James, David

ORAL HISTORY OF DAVID JAMES
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
May 3, 2013
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is May the 3rd, 2013 and I am at the home of Mr. David James here in Oak Ridge. Mr. James, thank you for taking time to talk with us.
MR. JAMES: You're welcome.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let's start with the beginning.
MR. JAMES: Okay.
MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me where you were born and raised, something about your family, where you went to school.
MR. JAMES: I was born in Tennessee Hollow in Briceville, Tennessee. And there was a Tennessee Coal Mining Company that was up that hollow and the coal train came by our front porch. I could wave at the engineers when I was two years old.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? What year were you born?
MR. JAMES: Nineteen and twenty-seven.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1927.
MR. JAMES: My father worked for the Post Office. He was the Postmaster in Briceville and his brother was the rural mail carrier, riding horseback in the mountains outside of Briceville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: Briceville was a big town in those days. It was a boomtown.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, was it still...? It was still coal mining, wasn't it?
MR. JAMES: The coal mining was booming and most people around here were fond of and they could get real money working the coal mine.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. JAMES: But my dad saw an ad in his work by a fellow got one to get officers for a prison they were building in Chillicothe, Ohio. So when I was about three, my daddy had already gone to Chillicothe and started and my mother and I got to go up there. My dad was Hubert James and he was an outgoing, teasing kind of guy everybody loved. My mother was a quiet woman, with all kind of friends and she was a praying person. She taught me to pray when I was two years old, and I've been praying ever since. But get into the beginning, we moved to Ohio and lived inside the fence of the prison. So, I went to schools in the public schools and rode a prison bus to school. The bus was screened and the kids teased us and called us monkeys in the monkey cage.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you lived inside the prison?
MR. JAMES: Inside the fence.
MR. MCDANIEL: Inside the fence. Now, was that just because your father was a guard or... What did he do there? Was he a guard?
MR. JAMES: He was initially a guard and later he was in charge of the agricultural part -- growing plants for the farm. But he worked there for 21 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? So you grew up in prison?
MR. JAMES: I grew up in prison. People ask me, you know, my reputation. I had security clearance in later life, it was prison people signed my security.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, did you have any brothers or sisters?
MR. JAMES: I had a sister. Sister, Joyce and she was three years younger than I.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: We both went to the schools -- initially a country school and later I transferred to the city school and bicycled to school -- or run home at times.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you graduated high school...
MR. JAMES: I graduated high school.
MR. MCDANIEL: When you graduated high school did you have any idea of what you wanted to do with your life?
MR. JAMES: Well, I joined the Navy in World War II before I graduated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: And when I went up to Great Lakes for the training ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Where did you go for training?
MR. JAMES: Great Lakes Naval Training Station.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, Great Lakes.
MR. JAMES: And they found that their flying program was full so they gave me the Captain Eddy test, which was an electronics test, and I'd had radio in high school so I did well on it and I went to Navy RADAR School for most of the rest of the time I was in the Navy.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, so did you join...? (coughs) Excuse me. So you joined.. You left high school to join, didn't you?
MR. JAMES: Well, I signed up in about March and had physicals and all that so far as the aeronautical stuff and then in June -- they let me graduate -- and in June I went to the Naval boot camp at the Great Lakes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. Now, what year was that?
MR. JAMES: That would have been 1945.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1945?
MR. JAMES: That was before the war ended.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Before the war ended. What do you remember about that? What do you remember about that summer?
MR. JAMES: Well, that summer was very eventful... in boot camp... we were in boot camp when the bombs were dropped.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. JAMES: And the war ended. A friend of mine and I, we took our first liberty in Chicago and we got off at the stations, people in Naval uniform all around.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: So at the Winter Garden USO, you had a place to stay, and a young man came up and said, "How'd you like to go to a Youth Rally?" And I said, "I need a place to stay." So he said, "You come with me to the rally and we'll take care of a place to stay."
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, Okay.
MR. JAMES: And the rally was on Michigan Avenue, there -- the lake front -- in a big music hall and it was Youth for Christ. Torrey Johnson was the evangelist and George Beverly Shea was the singer there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. JAMES: And both me and my close friend accepted Christ that night.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. JAMES: I was sent to a primary school in a high school gym in Chicago. I went to Moody Bible Church on weekends.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. I was there when Billy Graham, he came back from his first big meeting in England and the church was not a big church so he was very personal and gave us the message that day.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: So, those the things that were interesting there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. JAMES: But I was sent from ...down to Gulfport, Mississippi, for part of my training and then I went to Treasure Island in San Francisco.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay... all right. So how long were you in the service? When did you get out?
MR. JAMES: It was actually 13 months. But that was pretty much GI Bill for most of my college.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So, you got out of the service?
MR. JAMES: I could look out at Alcatraz there. I was on guard duty the night they had a fire in, the prisoners burned their bedding and stuff on Alcatraz and I could see the flames from my guard duty. In sonar lab.
MR. MCDANIEL: My goodness!
MR. JAMES: While I was in California, one of the girls I used to attend school with as a teenager, her daddy left the federal and went to work as a warden for Folsom Prison. So I'd hitchhike up to Sacramento on the weekends and her dad would come out and get me up and I spent the weekends in Folsom Prison.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Not only did you grow up in a prison, but you spent your weekends -- your vacation time in prison.
MR. JAMES: And he was promoted to San Quentin Prison, which is just across the bay, so I'd go over there to San Quentin and my girlfriend would be out on the beach at San Quentin and you could look straight out at the Golden Gate Bridge and San Francisco.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. JAMES: So, that was a very eventful Navy experience.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. JAMES: Now, I came back and I went to Ohio State, was going to go into nuclear physics.
MR. MCDANIEL: Why did you do that? What made you interested in that?
MR. JAMES: Why? I was inclined scientifically in high school. I took chemistry and radio and physics and I was good in math. In fact, I was one of the top in the class.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: Anyway, Ohio State in physics...
MR. MCDANIEL: And this nuclear thing was kind of new and exciting, wasn't it?
MR. JAMES: Yeah, yeah. Well, the Navy asked me to stay. They wanted people to work on the instruments. They were doing these tests in the South Pacific, but I wanted to get into college at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So, you went to Ohio State University and studied nuclear physics.
MR. JAMES: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me, were there very many other students studying that? What kind of training did the teachers have?
MR. JAMES: Well, is was early, so things were pretty rustic. Things we had -- well, some of our instruments to measure things at Ohio State. It had a cyclotron that we could use and make radioisotopes and we'd measure their half-life. I worked on technetium. Early stuff. It was information that was eventually put on the chart of nuclides.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. JAMES: Radiation half-lives.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... So, you graduated? You graduated college?
MR. JAMES: It was technetium instead of titanium...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, technetium, right... So, you graduated. Now, were you married at this time?
MR. JAMES: No, I was single. I was single when I was working for GE.
MR. MCDANIEL: And was that... was GE your first job?
MR. JAMES: No. But afterward.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay... Tell me about your first job.
MR. JAMES: First job was out at ORNL in 1951.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: Okay. We were working on the nuclear project.
MR. MCDANIEL: At what Lab?
MR. JAMES: At X-10.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, Oak Ridge National Laboratory.
MR. JAMES: Yeah, yeah... And we were making sodium loops in stainless steels and other alloys...
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, let's go back for a second. You said that was your first job. Now, was this after college?
MR. JAMES: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: How did you get that job? How did that come about?
MR. JAMES: Well, since I was from Tennessee, I really pushed because my daddy retired and already come home.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: So I tried to get here. Right soon.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. JAMES: And so I came and I worked for the Lab and we were putting sodium metal loops in the X-pile -- this was in stainless steel and we did the experiment, night and day for a month, this flow through the X-pile reactor to see what corrosion foul-ups and how heat transfers and so forth, worked for sodium.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, where was the X-pile reactor... was that the...?
MR. JAMES: X-10 Graphite Reactor.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was that the...
MR. JAMES: The original.
MR. MCDANIEL: ...the original Graphite Reactor?
MR. JAMES: Yeah, yeah...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay, sure, sure... So, it was kind of your first project when you got there, that you worked on, wasn't it?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. That was the truth. And I also worked some on the LITR Reactor, measuring the neutron flux measurements. Very early stages.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, let me ask you: What year did you first come to Oak Ridge?
MR. JAMES: '51.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1951. So, they were pretty well into doing research by then, weren't they?
MR. JAMES: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: I mean, the war was over, they'd kind of found a new mission, you know.
MR. JAMES: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: ...and they were ... they were doing things.
MR. JAMES: Well, the Cold War was getting ready to start.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. JAMES: They were developing a nuclear aircraft that could stay in the air for months.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... Now, was that about that time? When they started working on the nuclear aircraft?
MR. JAMES: Yeah, yes... It was NEPA at the first, and then they went over to Carbide. Truman froze wages back then, you see. And so, you couldn't get a raise, but you could change companies and get higher salaries.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: And GE came through and advertised for people with RADAR to man this RADAR station they put above Briceville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. JAMES: So I applied. Part of the planes at McGhee-Tyson and they needed the RADAR thing at Briceville. And so I signed up for that. They gave me a raise. I went to Syracuse for training. And they said, "Well, we need Navy people more than we do these..." So I went to work on Navy RADARs and I worked most of the ships like big battleships, the Wisconsin and New Jersey and those.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Now, let's go back for just a second, because I think this is kind of an interesting story that we've not talked a whole lot about. Is the... the -- and I'd heard about this but I didn't know much about it -- was the RADAR in Briceville up on the mountain.
MR. JAMES: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me, when was that put there and what was it for and how long did it operate?
MR. JAMES: Well, I left when they were putting it up there, so I worked away from here for years. So, I came home to see my folks and there's everybody. They had men up there riding that tram up to work on it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. JAMES: And live nearby.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. And what was the purpose of it?
MR. JAMES: To look for aircraft that might -- bombers -- that might come from Russia to bomb our plants.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see, in Oak Ridge.
MR. JAMES: In Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow. So, that was run, you said, by GE.
MR. JAMES: Yep.
MR. MCDANIEL: That was... that was... They're the ones who...
MR. JAMES: I worked for Heavy Military -- GE had that -- and also the Navy RADARs. My RADARS were height-finding RADARS for airplanes on ships.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. Okay, so you went to work for GE. How long did you do that?
MR. JAMES: Oh, I worked in several Navy yards installing these RADARS and I worked for a while on the Navy pickets off Newport, Rhode Island. I kept the RADAR going in these ships. They were looking for Russian subs which were showing up off our East Coast.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what did you call those? Pickets?
MR. JAMES: Picket.
MR. MCDANIEL: What is that?
MR. JAMES: It's like a picket. It's just... They were out there on stations looking for submarines.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see, I see...
MR. JAMES: So, after that, I went on a Navy cruiser shake down out of Boston. It was the Northampton. The ship had all kinds of RADARs and electronics, communication. We didn't find out what -- the people, the public -- didn't find out what this ship was used ... planned for until after it was actually decommissioned.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: It was planned to have the military and political leaders of the country to go aboard in case of nuclear war.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: To run the war.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MR. JAMES: Later, they substituted not nuclear, but regular aircraft out there to keep on station during the day for the same purpose.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Now, what was the name of the ship?
MR. JAMES: The Northampton.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, the Northampton... Okay. So how did you get back to Oak Ridge?
MR. JAMES: Well, I was working at Mare Island Navy Shipyard installing these height-finding RADARs both on cruisers and carriers. I was doing two systems at a time. I worked overtime there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: So, my boss in Syracuse called me up one morning and said, "How would you like to work on a nuclear submarine?"
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: So I said, "Yeah." So he said all it was maybe three months so I planned to come back to Mare Island.
MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh...
MR. JAMES: But I went to New London... Well, I first went to West Melton, New York, and worked on the prototype. [Let me get a little water and I'll...]
MR. MCDANIEL: That's fine... that's fine... let's do that. You just sit right there... just sit right there... I'll get it for you... (pause) Okay, so, we were talking about the nuclear submarine work.
MR. JAMES: Ready to start?
MR. MCDANIEL: Go ahead.
MR. JAMES: At West Melton, New York, the crew there had been under Jimmy Carter, President Carter.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, President Carter. Okay.
MR. JAMES: And they... Rickover's in charge of things...
MR. MCDANIEL: Rickover. Alright.
MR. JAMES: And they were starting up and they had this first one which was the only one... first and only one that was cooled by liquid sodium and then the secondary mercury coolant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: When I got there, they were having a lot of scrams.
MR. MCDANIEL: What's that?
MR. JAMES: That's when the... Unintentional shut downs.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: And the cause was some of my equipment which was emergency shut-down equipment. And what was happening, it was getting spikes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: And, so, one of my first things was trying to figure out why it has spikes. And, of course, Rickover was very upset and he was wanting daily reports, of course.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Of course (laughs). So, you were there. So, now, did you leave there and come to Oak Ridge?
MR. JAMES: Well, we're getting out of time, but I'm a long way from coming into Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay... Well, let's kind of go through that because I want to get you to Oak Ridge.
MR. JAMES: Okay... Well, let me see. I got married in New London.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. JAMES: So that was a big thing... But I went on the sea trials with Rickover on board. I did the deep dives and angles that's when he... on the submarine.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: Then, after I got through there, I went to work for GE in the computer department out in Phoenix.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what department?
MR. JAMES: Computer.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, computer department. Okay.
MR. JAMES: Okay. I helped build and I installed the first two big industrial computers on steel plant tin pipe lines. That goes through a lot of stuff, but anyway...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. JAMES: So, I saw an ad in the paper about the nuclear aircraft in Cincinnati, so I went to work for GE in Cincinnati.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: And we were building -- had already built -- a nuclear aircraft engine and we were setting up the test in Arco, Idaho, to test it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: So we already had a engine.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: And Sputnik happened, so that killed nuclear aircraft.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. Now, how is that related to the nuclear aircraft program in Oak Ridge?
MR. JAMES: Well, it was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: I mean, I came down here to Oak Ridge to do some work back and forth with GE Cincinnati. We had the tower reactor here in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. So they were working on it in Ohio and also in Oak Ridge.
MR. JAMES: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: So... We had the tower reactor. We were doing shielding studies with the tower reactor. And I was here a lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: Were you?
MR. JAMES: I still live in Cincinnati, come down Monday and going back on Friday.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. JAMES: Yeah. But, after working ... the nuclear aircraft program was cancelled, I looked around for a job and came down here and my mom and dad were still living in Briceville and I stayed -- my wife and I stayed with them and we looked around and I met a guy I'd worked for on the nuclear aircraft who was just in with ORTEC, which was just starting up.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, exactly...
MR. JAMES: So, I applied there and we'd worked together and I was employee Number 6 -- ORTEC.
MR. MCDANIEL: You were employee Number 6 at ORTEC.
MR. JAMES: Yeah, and we made nuclear instruments for researchers...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. JAMES: And I did special instruments.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MR. JAMES: Okay, I had a contract with Huntsville for the moon rockets, to make studies of liquid hydrogen, which is their fuel. And I spent a good amount of time back and forth with the instruments down there installing them, checking them ... at Huntsville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. So you were right at the very early days of really the independent enterprises that started doing work that either supported or was similar to what the labs were doing.
MR. JAMES: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: ORTEC, TENNELEC, those companies. Now, who was the founder of ORTEC?
MR. JAMES: It was Hal Schmidt and John Neiler
MR. MCDANIEL: Fairstein.
MR. JAMES: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it John Fairstein? Was that who it was?
MR. JAMES: He did the electronics.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's right.
MR. JAMES: Anyway, they got the contract with NASA and I worked on it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: And then, it was several kinds of specials. Unusual. They wanted to send some special detectors that could go out into space and measure solar wind.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: So we made ones for the Pioneer. And they were called "Solar Wind Detectors." There was many things special, mainly taking the temperature cycle, because it goes down almost to absolute zero in space and also goes hot when the sun's on the instruments.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure...
MR. JAMES: ... so we had to make a special detector and we developed them at ORTEC as part of that development and we finally built the detectors and I have pictures here of what the detectors look like.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right... Now, were they organic or were they...
MR. JAMES: No, they were silicon wafers. Solid state detectors.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure...
MR. JAMES: And then we made similar detectors -- wafers, the actual detectors -- for another NASA operation that became Journey.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really...
MR. JAMES: Okay. There was numerous articles and stuff about the Pioneer and the Journey. Both of them are way out and Journey's about to leave the solar system. So they're still working.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you've got your instruments on Journey?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. Murph Schammel, Rex Trammel, and Sandy Wagner, and all their crews to develop these special detectors that will do this.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure... sure... that's pretty interesting... Now, what year was it you went to work for ORTEC?
MR. JAMES: It would have been about '61.
MR. MCDANIEL: '61. Okay. So that's when you kind of moved back to Oak Ridge at that point, didn't you?
MR. JAMES: Yes. In '63, my wife and I were looking for five acres and we travelled around the countryside looking for little farms and things...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure...
MR. JAMES: ... and we found a house. It had 60 acres with it. And we bought it. And I have some pictures of it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really...
MR. JAMES: And so, I raised beef cattle for 16 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you really?
MR. JAMES: On that farm.
MR. MCDANIEL: On that farm...
MR. JAMES: And my ... after my folks... my wife died with breast cancer, I sold the farm. I was going to move to Ohio, to be near my daughter.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. JAMES: And, I had been walking in the mall and I met a lady who lost her husband to cancer and one thing led to another so, it's quite a story in that, but I better not get into that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now when did you meet this lady?
MR. JAMES: We’ve been married -- working on our ninth year. I sold the farm prior to that -- getting married to her. In fact, I had my furniture moved to Ohio.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? You were ready to go, weren't you?
MR. JAMES: I was going to buy a condo. I had retired.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. JAMES: Retired from Y-12... and that's another story.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, tell me about retiring from Y-12. Did you go to work for Y-12?
MR. JAMES: I went to work for Y-12 ... I forget which year... I worked in safety ... safety analysis. Primarily safety reviews or a project and writing up the review so that they proceed with the project.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now did you leave ORTEC to go to work for Y-12?
MR. JAMES: And ORTEC had a big lay-off -- about half the company. And I was one of them. And I got a job with a company just starting up -- Tenncomp. We eventually had our office in the newspaper building. And I was the project engineer for the Sequoyah-Watts Bar Status System that now monitored the status of the plant. We had a color monitor and all kind of electronics, microprocessors and so forth.
MR. MCDANIEL: For Watts Bar?
MR. JAMES: For Sequoyah, first.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, Sequoyah, right ...
MR. JAMES: Okay. We made the similar for Watts Bar but they delayed building the plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. JAMES: We built similar for Bellefonte in Alabama.
MR. MCDANIEL: Alabama...
MR. JAMES: But they never completed the plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. JAMES: But these were major systems. I mean thousands of contacts and pressure gauges and all the instrumentation.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, right...
MR. JAMES: And after that, that company was bought out by its competitor and run into the ground and I quit and went to work for Oak Ridge in safety analysis.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: And was eventually assigned to Y-12.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see, I see ... You went to... So, you went to work for the Lab?
MR. JAMES: No, I went to work for this... well, it is part of the Lab, I guess...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, right...
MR. JAMES: To be realistic, I didn't really work at Y-12.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see... I understand. And then, so that's where you finally retired from?
MR. JAMES: Yeah, yeah...
MR. MCDANIEL: Finally. Now when you lived here in Oak Ridge -- let's not talk about your work -- were you involved in... what kind of community activities were you involved in? Were you members of any clubs or activities? Things such as that?
MR. JAMES: I worked for CONTACT for about three years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. It was good experience.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now did you do that after you retired?
MR. JAMES: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: Before I was married.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you volunteered for CONTACT.
MR. JAMES: Yeah, I did.
MR. MCDANIEL: What is it they do, exactly?
MR. JAMES: They man the telephone to talk to people who have mental problems or problems, just to talk.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. JAMES: We aren't advisers or anything... we're just listeners...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. JAMES: And talk with them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, exactly...Now, now, you... what other things... were you involved in any clubs or other activities?
MR. JAMES: Until I had my heart attack, I gone to Oak Ridge Track Club.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. I ran 5K’s and stuff like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: At what age were you the last 5K you ran? How old were you?
MR. JAMES: Just under 70.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: Because I had my heart attack at 70...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? Yeah...
MR. JAMES: Just a few days before my 70th...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, exactly... Now, so your children were grown... they didn't grow up in Oak Ridge, did they? I mean they weren't...
MR. JAMES: They grew up... They went to Clinton High School...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Okay... Because you lived on the farm.
MR. JAMES: Yeah. My daughters were active in the Playhouse.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, they were! Let's talk about that. How many children did you have?
MR. JAMES: Three.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: I have a daughter, Stacey, she was in the... Bye Bye, Birdie.
MR. MCDANIEL: Bye, Bye, Birdie. Okay...
MR. JAMES: And my youngest daughter, who was 14 at the time... about 14, she did ...forget the lady's name... Something on her birthday... was the story of how this little girl's dad had her in the lake with her friend at the beach... after his first wife... It's Gillian on her Birthday...
MR. MCDANIEL: Gillian on her 37th Birthday, or something like that yeah...
MR. JAMES: Yeah... It was a major part...
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. JAMES: ...and she really did good in it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Huh! My goodness...
MR. JAMES: She lives in Minnesota now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? So they were real involved in the Playhouse. What years were that? What years were that? The ‘60s... the ‘70s?
MR. JAMES: No, it would been... They're not but 40 so..
MR. MCDANIEL: That would have been in the ‘80s then...
MR. JAMES: The ‘80s...
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, all right...So, I'm sure you and your wife went to see them in the plays...
MR. JAMES: My first wife...
MR. MCDANIEL: Your first wife... that's what I mean, your first wife went to see them... Now, did you belong to any other clubs, Rotary or Kiwanis or Jaycees or ...
MR. JAMES: No. Well, I was in the Masons at Briceville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you?
MR. JAMES: Okay. I was their secretary for 38 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Ok...
MR. JAMES: Ok. My dad had belonged there when he was young and my grandfather, Tom James was charter member of Crystal Lodge in Briceville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? So did you, when you were down here, did you spend much time in Briceville and, you know, up there?
MR. JAMES: Oh, yes. I hiked all over Waldens Ridge. As a kid, on vacations, I took cameras and have black and white shots of all those mountains long before they did the strip mining.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, were, were... Let me ask you this, when you were -- of course, you weren't there, you weren't very old -- but when you were born and spent your first few years there, were there still a lot of Welsh miners around that area?
MR. JAMES: Yeah... my grandfather Jones came from Kidwelly, Wales.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay... So you're a descendant of a Welch miner?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. And my sister and I went to Wales and visited our people there. It's just a little town, about 12,000, on the seacoast. Kidwelly. And the way we knew... found out where to look was, his brother -- my grandfather, Jones, Davy Jones' brother -- John, is buried in the same cemetery next to my grandfather and on his tombstone -- he was older -- "John Jones, born in Kidwelly, Wales" so we know he's from there and there's only about 12,000 people there so it wasn't hard to find the right Jones.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. I'm sure...I'm sure... Was there anything else you want to talk about? Any other stories you want to tell? Anything about your life here in Oak Ridge over the last 50 years or so?
MR. JAMES: Well, in general, as a child, I was into all kinds of stuff. I had RCA electronics, had DuPont chemistry. You couldn't buy that stuff today. I worked on pipe bombs long before October Sky... We didn't call them bombs, we called them rockets... pipes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, of course.
MR. JAMES: Photography's been my big hobby...
MR. MCDANIEL: Has it?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. So I have pictures all... I've travelled all over... my first wife and I went with a church group to the Holy Land right after... in '74... right after the October War... we had a wonderful time there in Jerusalem in Israel.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. JAMES: In church, I'm an active member of church. Grandfather Moore started the church in Briceville and I've gone there and I've supported that for years. In my younger days, I taught adult Sunday school and when the pastor was out with surgery three months, I pastored the church.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: I went to that church and Delbert Payne was the pastor and I also taught Sunday school there and he had some surgery, too, and so I pastored that church about three months.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MR. JAMES: And had the radio broadcast was at 7:30 in the morning and at 10 o'clock, so I took care of it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay...
MR. JAMES: I currently belong to Faith Promise Church out here at... up on Solway.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. JAMES: It's a big growing church. I'm in the prayer group.
MR. MCDANIEL: Are you?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. The Celebrating for the Recovery Prayer Group. We pray for people who are trying to get off alcohol or drugs...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. JAMES: ...and problems with death and divorce and so forth.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now what do you think about their worship style they have?
MR. JAMES: I like it. It's loud but it's a young people's ...
MR. MCDANIEL: It's a young...
MR. JAMES: Yeah. Yeah. It's loud music. The songs are mostly upbeat. The praise songs mostly from the Old Testament. They're songs like the Psalms of David...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. JAMES: But they're loud.
MR. MCDANIEL: They're loud. Hey that's okay; the older you get the harder your hearing gets so it evens out, doesn't it?
MR. JAMES: That's right... that's right. But I had a lot of joy in my life now and the Lord has given me a lot of joy -- my wife's named Joy and we kept it, had her keep it...
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. JAMES: So she's not Mrs. James...
MR. MCDANIEL: She's Mrs. Joy -- Judy Joy's her name.
MR. JAMES: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you say now she volunteers at the Playhouse a lot doesn't she?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. She does that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. JAMES: And does at our church, she does the pantry and stuff.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. JAMES: And sings and rings the bell choir and all that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, exactly. Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk with us.
MR. JAMES: You're welcome.
MR. MCDANIEL: I enjoyed it. Thank you so much, I appreciate it.
[End of Interview]
[Editor’s Note: Portions of this transcript have been edited at Mr. James’s request. The Corresponding audio and video components have remained unchanged.]

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ORAL HISTORY OF DAVID JAMES
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
May 3, 2013
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is May the 3rd, 2013 and I am at the home of Mr. David James here in Oak Ridge. Mr. James, thank you for taking time to talk with us.
MR. JAMES: You're welcome.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let's start with the beginning.
MR. JAMES: Okay.
MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me where you were born and raised, something about your family, where you went to school.
MR. JAMES: I was born in Tennessee Hollow in Briceville, Tennessee. And there was a Tennessee Coal Mining Company that was up that hollow and the coal train came by our front porch. I could wave at the engineers when I was two years old.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? What year were you born?
MR. JAMES: Nineteen and twenty-seven.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1927.
MR. JAMES: My father worked for the Post Office. He was the Postmaster in Briceville and his brother was the rural mail carrier, riding horseback in the mountains outside of Briceville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: Briceville was a big town in those days. It was a boomtown.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, was it still...? It was still coal mining, wasn't it?
MR. JAMES: The coal mining was booming and most people around here were fond of and they could get real money working the coal mine.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. JAMES: But my dad saw an ad in his work by a fellow got one to get officers for a prison they were building in Chillicothe, Ohio. So when I was about three, my daddy had already gone to Chillicothe and started and my mother and I got to go up there. My dad was Hubert James and he was an outgoing, teasing kind of guy everybody loved. My mother was a quiet woman, with all kind of friends and she was a praying person. She taught me to pray when I was two years old, and I've been praying ever since. But get into the beginning, we moved to Ohio and lived inside the fence of the prison. So, I went to schools in the public schools and rode a prison bus to school. The bus was screened and the kids teased us and called us monkeys in the monkey cage.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you lived inside the prison?
MR. JAMES: Inside the fence.
MR. MCDANIEL: Inside the fence. Now, was that just because your father was a guard or... What did he do there? Was he a guard?
MR. JAMES: He was initially a guard and later he was in charge of the agricultural part -- growing plants for the farm. But he worked there for 21 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? So you grew up in prison?
MR. JAMES: I grew up in prison. People ask me, you know, my reputation. I had security clearance in later life, it was prison people signed my security.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, did you have any brothers or sisters?
MR. JAMES: I had a sister. Sister, Joyce and she was three years younger than I.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: We both went to the schools -- initially a country school and later I transferred to the city school and bicycled to school -- or run home at times.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you graduated high school...
MR. JAMES: I graduated high school.
MR. MCDANIEL: When you graduated high school did you have any idea of what you wanted to do with your life?
MR. JAMES: Well, I joined the Navy in World War II before I graduated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: And when I went up to Great Lakes for the training ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Where did you go for training?
MR. JAMES: Great Lakes Naval Training Station.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, Great Lakes.
MR. JAMES: And they found that their flying program was full so they gave me the Captain Eddy test, which was an electronics test, and I'd had radio in high school so I did well on it and I went to Navy RADAR School for most of the rest of the time I was in the Navy.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, so did you join...? (coughs) Excuse me. So you joined.. You left high school to join, didn't you?
MR. JAMES: Well, I signed up in about March and had physicals and all that so far as the aeronautical stuff and then in June -- they let me graduate -- and in June I went to the Naval boot camp at the Great Lakes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. Now, what year was that?
MR. JAMES: That would have been 1945.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1945?
MR. JAMES: That was before the war ended.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Before the war ended. What do you remember about that? What do you remember about that summer?
MR. JAMES: Well, that summer was very eventful... in boot camp... we were in boot camp when the bombs were dropped.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. JAMES: And the war ended. A friend of mine and I, we took our first liberty in Chicago and we got off at the stations, people in Naval uniform all around.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: So at the Winter Garden USO, you had a place to stay, and a young man came up and said, "How'd you like to go to a Youth Rally?" And I said, "I need a place to stay." So he said, "You come with me to the rally and we'll take care of a place to stay."
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, Okay.
MR. JAMES: And the rally was on Michigan Avenue, there -- the lake front -- in a big music hall and it was Youth for Christ. Torrey Johnson was the evangelist and George Beverly Shea was the singer there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. JAMES: And both me and my close friend accepted Christ that night.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. JAMES: I was sent to a primary school in a high school gym in Chicago. I went to Moody Bible Church on weekends.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. I was there when Billy Graham, he came back from his first big meeting in England and the church was not a big church so he was very personal and gave us the message that day.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: So, those the things that were interesting there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. JAMES: But I was sent from ...down to Gulfport, Mississippi, for part of my training and then I went to Treasure Island in San Francisco.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay... all right. So how long were you in the service? When did you get out?
MR. JAMES: It was actually 13 months. But that was pretty much GI Bill for most of my college.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So, you got out of the service?
MR. JAMES: I could look out at Alcatraz there. I was on guard duty the night they had a fire in, the prisoners burned their bedding and stuff on Alcatraz and I could see the flames from my guard duty. In sonar lab.
MR. MCDANIEL: My goodness!
MR. JAMES: While I was in California, one of the girls I used to attend school with as a teenager, her daddy left the federal and went to work as a warden for Folsom Prison. So I'd hitchhike up to Sacramento on the weekends and her dad would come out and get me up and I spent the weekends in Folsom Prison.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Not only did you grow up in a prison, but you spent your weekends -- your vacation time in prison.
MR. JAMES: And he was promoted to San Quentin Prison, which is just across the bay, so I'd go over there to San Quentin and my girlfriend would be out on the beach at San Quentin and you could look straight out at the Golden Gate Bridge and San Francisco.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. JAMES: So, that was a very eventful Navy experience.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. JAMES: Now, I came back and I went to Ohio State, was going to go into nuclear physics.
MR. MCDANIEL: Why did you do that? What made you interested in that?
MR. JAMES: Why? I was inclined scientifically in high school. I took chemistry and radio and physics and I was good in math. In fact, I was one of the top in the class.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: Anyway, Ohio State in physics...
MR. MCDANIEL: And this nuclear thing was kind of new and exciting, wasn't it?
MR. JAMES: Yeah, yeah. Well, the Navy asked me to stay. They wanted people to work on the instruments. They were doing these tests in the South Pacific, but I wanted to get into college at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So, you went to Ohio State University and studied nuclear physics.
MR. JAMES: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me, were there very many other students studying that? What kind of training did the teachers have?
MR. JAMES: Well, is was early, so things were pretty rustic. Things we had -- well, some of our instruments to measure things at Ohio State. It had a cyclotron that we could use and make radioisotopes and we'd measure their half-life. I worked on technetium. Early stuff. It was information that was eventually put on the chart of nuclides.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. JAMES: Radiation half-lives.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... So, you graduated? You graduated college?
MR. JAMES: It was technetium instead of titanium...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, technetium, right... So, you graduated. Now, were you married at this time?
MR. JAMES: No, I was single. I was single when I was working for GE.
MR. MCDANIEL: And was that... was GE your first job?
MR. JAMES: No. But afterward.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay... Tell me about your first job.
MR. JAMES: First job was out at ORNL in 1951.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: Okay. We were working on the nuclear project.
MR. MCDANIEL: At what Lab?
MR. JAMES: At X-10.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, Oak Ridge National Laboratory.
MR. JAMES: Yeah, yeah... And we were making sodium loops in stainless steels and other alloys...
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, let's go back for a second. You said that was your first job. Now, was this after college?
MR. JAMES: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: How did you get that job? How did that come about?
MR. JAMES: Well, since I was from Tennessee, I really pushed because my daddy retired and already come home.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: So I tried to get here. Right soon.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. JAMES: And so I came and I worked for the Lab and we were putting sodium metal loops in the X-pile -- this was in stainless steel and we did the experiment, night and day for a month, this flow through the X-pile reactor to see what corrosion foul-ups and how heat transfers and so forth, worked for sodium.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, where was the X-pile reactor... was that the...?
MR. JAMES: X-10 Graphite Reactor.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was that the...
MR. JAMES: The original.
MR. MCDANIEL: ...the original Graphite Reactor?
MR. JAMES: Yeah, yeah...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay, sure, sure... So, it was kind of your first project when you got there, that you worked on, wasn't it?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. That was the truth. And I also worked some on the LITR Reactor, measuring the neutron flux measurements. Very early stages.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, let me ask you: What year did you first come to Oak Ridge?
MR. JAMES: '51.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1951. So, they were pretty well into doing research by then, weren't they?
MR. JAMES: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: I mean, the war was over, they'd kind of found a new mission, you know.
MR. JAMES: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: ...and they were ... they were doing things.
MR. JAMES: Well, the Cold War was getting ready to start.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. JAMES: They were developing a nuclear aircraft that could stay in the air for months.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... Now, was that about that time? When they started working on the nuclear aircraft?
MR. JAMES: Yeah, yes... It was NEPA at the first, and then they went over to Carbide. Truman froze wages back then, you see. And so, you couldn't get a raise, but you could change companies and get higher salaries.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: And GE came through and advertised for people with RADAR to man this RADAR station they put above Briceville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. JAMES: So I applied. Part of the planes at McGhee-Tyson and they needed the RADAR thing at Briceville. And so I signed up for that. They gave me a raise. I went to Syracuse for training. And they said, "Well, we need Navy people more than we do these..." So I went to work on Navy RADARs and I worked most of the ships like big battleships, the Wisconsin and New Jersey and those.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Now, let's go back for just a second, because I think this is kind of an interesting story that we've not talked a whole lot about. Is the... the -- and I'd heard about this but I didn't know much about it -- was the RADAR in Briceville up on the mountain.
MR. JAMES: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me, when was that put there and what was it for and how long did it operate?
MR. JAMES: Well, I left when they were putting it up there, so I worked away from here for years. So, I came home to see my folks and there's everybody. They had men up there riding that tram up to work on it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. JAMES: And live nearby.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. And what was the purpose of it?
MR. JAMES: To look for aircraft that might -- bombers -- that might come from Russia to bomb our plants.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see, in Oak Ridge.
MR. JAMES: In Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow. So, that was run, you said, by GE.
MR. JAMES: Yep.
MR. MCDANIEL: That was... that was... They're the ones who...
MR. JAMES: I worked for Heavy Military -- GE had that -- and also the Navy RADARs. My RADARS were height-finding RADARS for airplanes on ships.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. Okay, so you went to work for GE. How long did you do that?
MR. JAMES: Oh, I worked in several Navy yards installing these RADARS and I worked for a while on the Navy pickets off Newport, Rhode Island. I kept the RADAR going in these ships. They were looking for Russian subs which were showing up off our East Coast.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what did you call those? Pickets?
MR. JAMES: Picket.
MR. MCDANIEL: What is that?
MR. JAMES: It's like a picket. It's just... They were out there on stations looking for submarines.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see, I see...
MR. JAMES: So, after that, I went on a Navy cruiser shake down out of Boston. It was the Northampton. The ship had all kinds of RADARs and electronics, communication. We didn't find out what -- the people, the public -- didn't find out what this ship was used ... planned for until after it was actually decommissioned.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: It was planned to have the military and political leaders of the country to go aboard in case of nuclear war.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: To run the war.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MR. JAMES: Later, they substituted not nuclear, but regular aircraft out there to keep on station during the day for the same purpose.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Now, what was the name of the ship?
MR. JAMES: The Northampton.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, the Northampton... Okay. So how did you get back to Oak Ridge?
MR. JAMES: Well, I was working at Mare Island Navy Shipyard installing these height-finding RADARs both on cruisers and carriers. I was doing two systems at a time. I worked overtime there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: So, my boss in Syracuse called me up one morning and said, "How would you like to work on a nuclear submarine?"
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: So I said, "Yeah." So he said all it was maybe three months so I planned to come back to Mare Island.
MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh...
MR. JAMES: But I went to New London... Well, I first went to West Melton, New York, and worked on the prototype. [Let me get a little water and I'll...]
MR. MCDANIEL: That's fine... that's fine... let's do that. You just sit right there... just sit right there... I'll get it for you... (pause) Okay, so, we were talking about the nuclear submarine work.
MR. JAMES: Ready to start?
MR. MCDANIEL: Go ahead.
MR. JAMES: At West Melton, New York, the crew there had been under Jimmy Carter, President Carter.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, President Carter. Okay.
MR. JAMES: And they... Rickover's in charge of things...
MR. MCDANIEL: Rickover. Alright.
MR. JAMES: And they were starting up and they had this first one which was the only one... first and only one that was cooled by liquid sodium and then the secondary mercury coolant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: When I got there, they were having a lot of scrams.
MR. MCDANIEL: What's that?
MR. JAMES: That's when the... Unintentional shut downs.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: And the cause was some of my equipment which was emergency shut-down equipment. And what was happening, it was getting spikes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: And, so, one of my first things was trying to figure out why it has spikes. And, of course, Rickover was very upset and he was wanting daily reports, of course.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Of course (laughs). So, you were there. So, now, did you leave there and come to Oak Ridge?
MR. JAMES: Well, we're getting out of time, but I'm a long way from coming into Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay... Well, let's kind of go through that because I want to get you to Oak Ridge.
MR. JAMES: Okay... Well, let me see. I got married in New London.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. JAMES: So that was a big thing... But I went on the sea trials with Rickover on board. I did the deep dives and angles that's when he... on the submarine.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: Then, after I got through there, I went to work for GE in the computer department out in Phoenix.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what department?
MR. JAMES: Computer.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, computer department. Okay.
MR. JAMES: Okay. I helped build and I installed the first two big industrial computers on steel plant tin pipe lines. That goes through a lot of stuff, but anyway...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. JAMES: So, I saw an ad in the paper about the nuclear aircraft in Cincinnati, so I went to work for GE in Cincinnati.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: And we were building -- had already built -- a nuclear aircraft engine and we were setting up the test in Arco, Idaho, to test it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: So we already had a engine.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. JAMES: And Sputnik happened, so that killed nuclear aircraft.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. Now, how is that related to the nuclear aircraft program in Oak Ridge?
MR. JAMES: Well, it was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: I mean, I came down here to Oak Ridge to do some work back and forth with GE Cincinnati. We had the tower reactor here in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. So they were working on it in Ohio and also in Oak Ridge.
MR. JAMES: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: So... We had the tower reactor. We were doing shielding studies with the tower reactor. And I was here a lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: Were you?
MR. JAMES: I still live in Cincinnati, come down Monday and going back on Friday.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. JAMES: Yeah. But, after working ... the nuclear aircraft program was cancelled, I looked around for a job and came down here and my mom and dad were still living in Briceville and I stayed -- my wife and I stayed with them and we looked around and I met a guy I'd worked for on the nuclear aircraft who was just in with ORTEC, which was just starting up.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, exactly...
MR. JAMES: So, I applied there and we'd worked together and I was employee Number 6 -- ORTEC.
MR. MCDANIEL: You were employee Number 6 at ORTEC.
MR. JAMES: Yeah, and we made nuclear instruments for researchers...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. JAMES: And I did special instruments.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MR. JAMES: Okay, I had a contract with Huntsville for the moon rockets, to make studies of liquid hydrogen, which is their fuel. And I spent a good amount of time back and forth with the instruments down there installing them, checking them ... at Huntsville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. So you were right at the very early days of really the independent enterprises that started doing work that either supported or was similar to what the labs were doing.
MR. JAMES: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: ORTEC, TENNELEC, those companies. Now, who was the founder of ORTEC?
MR. JAMES: It was Hal Schmidt and John Neiler
MR. MCDANIEL: Fairstein.
MR. JAMES: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it John Fairstein? Was that who it was?
MR. JAMES: He did the electronics.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's right.
MR. JAMES: Anyway, they got the contract with NASA and I worked on it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: And then, it was several kinds of specials. Unusual. They wanted to send some special detectors that could go out into space and measure solar wind.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: So we made ones for the Pioneer. And they were called "Solar Wind Detectors." There was many things special, mainly taking the temperature cycle, because it goes down almost to absolute zero in space and also goes hot when the sun's on the instruments.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure...
MR. JAMES: ... so we had to make a special detector and we developed them at ORTEC as part of that development and we finally built the detectors and I have pictures here of what the detectors look like.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right... Now, were they organic or were they...
MR. JAMES: No, they were silicon wafers. Solid state detectors.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure...
MR. JAMES: And then we made similar detectors -- wafers, the actual detectors -- for another NASA operation that became Journey.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really...
MR. JAMES: Okay. There was numerous articles and stuff about the Pioneer and the Journey. Both of them are way out and Journey's about to leave the solar system. So they're still working.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you've got your instruments on Journey?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. Murph Schammel, Rex Trammel, and Sandy Wagner, and all their crews to develop these special detectors that will do this.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure... sure... that's pretty interesting... Now, what year was it you went to work for ORTEC?
MR. JAMES: It would have been about '61.
MR. MCDANIEL: '61. Okay. So that's when you kind of moved back to Oak Ridge at that point, didn't you?
MR. JAMES: Yes. In '63, my wife and I were looking for five acres and we travelled around the countryside looking for little farms and things...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure...
MR. JAMES: ... and we found a house. It had 60 acres with it. And we bought it. And I have some pictures of it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really...
MR. JAMES: And so, I raised beef cattle for 16 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you really?
MR. JAMES: On that farm.
MR. MCDANIEL: On that farm...
MR. JAMES: And my ... after my folks... my wife died with breast cancer, I sold the farm. I was going to move to Ohio, to be near my daughter.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. JAMES: And, I had been walking in the mall and I met a lady who lost her husband to cancer and one thing led to another so, it's quite a story in that, but I better not get into that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now when did you meet this lady?
MR. JAMES: We’ve been married -- working on our ninth year. I sold the farm prior to that -- getting married to her. In fact, I had my furniture moved to Ohio.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? You were ready to go, weren't you?
MR. JAMES: I was going to buy a condo. I had retired.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. JAMES: Retired from Y-12... and that's another story.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, tell me about retiring from Y-12. Did you go to work for Y-12?
MR. JAMES: I went to work for Y-12 ... I forget which year... I worked in safety ... safety analysis. Primarily safety reviews or a project and writing up the review so that they proceed with the project.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now did you leave ORTEC to go to work for Y-12?
MR. JAMES: And ORTEC had a big lay-off -- about half the company. And I was one of them. And I got a job with a company just starting up -- Tenncomp. We eventually had our office in the newspaper building. And I was the project engineer for the Sequoyah-Watts Bar Status System that now monitored the status of the plant. We had a color monitor and all kind of electronics, microprocessors and so forth.
MR. MCDANIEL: For Watts Bar?
MR. JAMES: For Sequoyah, first.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, Sequoyah, right ...
MR. JAMES: Okay. We made the similar for Watts Bar but they delayed building the plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. JAMES: We built similar for Bellefonte in Alabama.
MR. MCDANIEL: Alabama...
MR. JAMES: But they never completed the plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. JAMES: But these were major systems. I mean thousands of contacts and pressure gauges and all the instrumentation.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, right...
MR. JAMES: And after that, that company was bought out by its competitor and run into the ground and I quit and went to work for Oak Ridge in safety analysis.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: And was eventually assigned to Y-12.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see, I see ... You went to... So, you went to work for the Lab?
MR. JAMES: No, I went to work for this... well, it is part of the Lab, I guess...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, right...
MR. JAMES: To be realistic, I didn't really work at Y-12.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see... I understand. And then, so that's where you finally retired from?
MR. JAMES: Yeah, yeah...
MR. MCDANIEL: Finally. Now when you lived here in Oak Ridge -- let's not talk about your work -- were you involved in... what kind of community activities were you involved in? Were you members of any clubs or activities? Things such as that?
MR. JAMES: I worked for CONTACT for about three years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. It was good experience.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now did you do that after you retired?
MR. JAMES: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: Before I was married.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you volunteered for CONTACT.
MR. JAMES: Yeah, I did.
MR. MCDANIEL: What is it they do, exactly?
MR. JAMES: They man the telephone to talk to people who have mental problems or problems, just to talk.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. JAMES: We aren't advisers or anything... we're just listeners...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. JAMES: And talk with them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, exactly...Now, now, you... what other things... were you involved in any clubs or other activities?
MR. JAMES: Until I had my heart attack, I gone to Oak Ridge Track Club.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. I ran 5K’s and stuff like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: At what age were you the last 5K you ran? How old were you?
MR. JAMES: Just under 70.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: Because I had my heart attack at 70...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? Yeah...
MR. JAMES: Just a few days before my 70th...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, exactly... Now, so your children were grown... they didn't grow up in Oak Ridge, did they? I mean they weren't...
MR. JAMES: They grew up... They went to Clinton High School...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Okay... Because you lived on the farm.
MR. JAMES: Yeah. My daughters were active in the Playhouse.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, they were! Let's talk about that. How many children did you have?
MR. JAMES: Three.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. JAMES: I have a daughter, Stacey, she was in the... Bye Bye, Birdie.
MR. MCDANIEL: Bye, Bye, Birdie. Okay...
MR. JAMES: And my youngest daughter, who was 14 at the time... about 14, she did ...forget the lady's name... Something on her birthday... was the story of how this little girl's dad had her in the lake with her friend at the beach... after his first wife... It's Gillian on her Birthday...
MR. MCDANIEL: Gillian on her 37th Birthday, or something like that yeah...
MR. JAMES: Yeah... It was a major part...
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. JAMES: ...and she really did good in it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Huh! My goodness...
MR. JAMES: She lives in Minnesota now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? So they were real involved in the Playhouse. What years were that? What years were that? The ‘60s... the ‘70s?
MR. JAMES: No, it would been... They're not but 40 so..
MR. MCDANIEL: That would have been in the ‘80s then...
MR. JAMES: The ‘80s...
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, all right...So, I'm sure you and your wife went to see them in the plays...
MR. JAMES: My first wife...
MR. MCDANIEL: Your first wife... that's what I mean, your first wife went to see them... Now, did you belong to any other clubs, Rotary or Kiwanis or Jaycees or ...
MR. JAMES: No. Well, I was in the Masons at Briceville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you?
MR. JAMES: Okay. I was their secretary for 38 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Ok...
MR. JAMES: Ok. My dad had belonged there when he was young and my grandfather, Tom James was charter member of Crystal Lodge in Briceville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? So did you, when you were down here, did you spend much time in Briceville and, you know, up there?
MR. JAMES: Oh, yes. I hiked all over Waldens Ridge. As a kid, on vacations, I took cameras and have black and white shots of all those mountains long before they did the strip mining.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, were, were... Let me ask you this, when you were -- of course, you weren't there, you weren't very old -- but when you were born and spent your first few years there, were there still a lot of Welsh miners around that area?
MR. JAMES: Yeah... my grandfather Jones came from Kidwelly, Wales.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay... So you're a descendant of a Welch miner?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. And my sister and I went to Wales and visited our people there. It's just a little town, about 12,000, on the seacoast. Kidwelly. And the way we knew... found out where to look was, his brother -- my grandfather, Jones, Davy Jones' brother -- John, is buried in the same cemetery next to my grandfather and on his tombstone -- he was older -- "John Jones, born in Kidwelly, Wales" so we know he's from there and there's only about 12,000 people there so it wasn't hard to find the right Jones.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. I'm sure...I'm sure... Was there anything else you want to talk about? Any other stories you want to tell? Anything about your life here in Oak Ridge over the last 50 years or so?
MR. JAMES: Well, in general, as a child, I was into all kinds of stuff. I had RCA electronics, had DuPont chemistry. You couldn't buy that stuff today. I worked on pipe bombs long before October Sky... We didn't call them bombs, we called them rockets... pipes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, of course.
MR. JAMES: Photography's been my big hobby...
MR. MCDANIEL: Has it?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. So I have pictures all... I've travelled all over... my first wife and I went with a church group to the Holy Land right after... in '74... right after the October War... we had a wonderful time there in Jerusalem in Israel.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. JAMES: In church, I'm an active member of church. Grandfather Moore started the church in Briceville and I've gone there and I've supported that for years. In my younger days, I taught adult Sunday school and when the pastor was out with surgery three months, I pastored the church.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. JAMES: I went to that church and Delbert Payne was the pastor and I also taught Sunday school there and he had some surgery, too, and so I pastored that church about three months.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MR. JAMES: And had the radio broadcast was at 7:30 in the morning and at 10 o'clock, so I took care of it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay...
MR. JAMES: I currently belong to Faith Promise Church out here at... up on Solway.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. JAMES: It's a big growing church. I'm in the prayer group.
MR. MCDANIEL: Are you?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. The Celebrating for the Recovery Prayer Group. We pray for people who are trying to get off alcohol or drugs...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. JAMES: ...and problems with death and divorce and so forth.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now what do you think about their worship style they have?
MR. JAMES: I like it. It's loud but it's a young people's ...
MR. MCDANIEL: It's a young...
MR. JAMES: Yeah. Yeah. It's loud music. The songs are mostly upbeat. The praise songs mostly from the Old Testament. They're songs like the Psalms of David...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. JAMES: But they're loud.
MR. MCDANIEL: They're loud. Hey that's okay; the older you get the harder your hearing gets so it evens out, doesn't it?
MR. JAMES: That's right... that's right. But I had a lot of joy in my life now and the Lord has given me a lot of joy -- my wife's named Joy and we kept it, had her keep it...
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. JAMES: So she's not Mrs. James...
MR. MCDANIEL: She's Mrs. Joy -- Judy Joy's her name.
MR. JAMES: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you say now she volunteers at the Playhouse a lot doesn't she?
MR. JAMES: Yeah. She does that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. JAMES: And does at our church, she does the pantry and stuff.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. JAMES: And sings and rings the bell choir and all that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, exactly. Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk with us.
MR. JAMES: You're welcome.
MR. MCDANIEL: I enjoyed it. Thank you so much, I appreciate it.
[End of Interview]
[Editor’s Note: Portions of this transcript have been edited at Mr. James’s request. The Corresponding audio and video components have remained unchanged.]