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I'd be curious to understand the rationale behind the decision. They don't hurt anyone, their not a nuisance, and they're doing a noble job of helping those in need. And, considering the current state of the economy, there is probably greater need than in past years. Hopefully, they will get some feedback from their customers and re-think their decision.

Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware that they were a homophobic organization and that is a bit disappointing. Still, though, they serve a noble purpose and help those in need. Unless one of the requirements for assistance is that one must enlist in the anti-gay army, I'm fine with continuing to drop a dollar or two into their buckets.

I wasn't aware that they were a homophobic organization and that is a bit disappointing. Still, though, they serve a noble purpose and help those in need. Unless one of the requirements for assistance is that one must enlist in the anti-gay army, I'm fine with continuing to drop a dollar or two into their buckets.

There are plenty of organizations you can donate to in order to help those in need without also helping to support an organization that also uses funds to discriminate against gay people.

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

There are plenty of organizations you can donate to in order to help those in need without also helping to support an organization that also uses funds to discriminate against gay people.

That's true, but if I made it a strict policy of not dealing with ignorant people who had issues with my sexuality, I'd have to sever all ties with my father and a few other members of my family and that's not going to happen anytime soon. It would be extremely difficult for me to buy into an argument that the strides for equality that have been made in the past many years are at risk. Rather, I expect the forward momentum to continue with ever increasing speed and power and those who remain homophobic will either get out of the way or get run over.

I am, though, going to ask the little old lady who is all dressed up in red outside of my grocery store if she "hates fags" when I see her tomorrow

Sorry, after they RETURNED a donation from my local gay youth group back in the day, I have chosen to drop my dollars, when I choose to, elsewhere.

They have no time nor energy for me. And I return that favor.

I urge everyone to research their charities.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Sorry, after they RETURNED a donation from my local gay youth group back in the day, I have chosen to drop my dollars, when I choose to, elsewhere.

They have no time nor energy for me. And I return that favor.

I urge everyone to research their charities.

from a link off of the one the edfu posted

The San Francisco Chronicle

Before we take the predictable San Francisco, to-the-barricades view on all this, let's consider the Catholic concept of "proportionalism." This means (roughly, my interpretation) that bad conduct can be acceptable if a much greater good is being accomplished.

The Salvation Army served 33 million people in the United States last year. It raises about $2 billion a year and spends an impressive 89 percent of that on services - food, shelter, foster care and HIV programs.

It is a consistent and reliable disaster relief group.

"The first hand that reaches to pull you from the rubble of our next earthquake," Shea O'Neill wrote on the SFAppeal Web site last week, "will be the anti-gay hand of the Salvation Army."

There's no whitewashing their beliefs, if you oppose them, though the Army mission also is clear that its relief services are available to anyone "without regard to sexual orientation."

the author then concludes:

"After weighing the moral dilemma, I'll be dropping some dough in that bucket myself."

To excuse faith-based homophobia or to make the argument that the Salvation Army is somehow morally permitted to do a wrong because they also do so much right is both a failed logic exercise and a failed moral one.

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

I don't give to the Salvation Army because I find their bell ringing really annoying. Plus whenever I try to get someone into their shelter they are not at all helpful. Not to mention I don't really like supporting religious organizations. I didn't know they had an official statement against gay people but I'm not surprised.

I have known quite a few life-long members of the Swiss Salvation Army for many years and never heard a peep about my gayness which was known to all. Was invited to family dinners and religious holiday dinners with my boyfriend. Went to some of the most moving and appropriate funerals.

I am more in the camp that sometimes one overlooks faithbased prejudices because the faithful themselves seem to have complicated and nuanced relationships to their own doctrines.

Politically correct "fundamentalism" is thwarting compromise in the US. Why does everything have to be so black and white, in a country that is obviously as morally inconsistent as other countries and cultures.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 06:46:02 AM by mecch »

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

That's one of the greatest things about living in a free society...the freedom to choose which extends to the selection of charities to support, I guess.

Personally, I choose to separate charity from activism. The whole point of the act is to give without any expectation of receiving anything in return. I believe it's about the benefits to the recipient as opposed to the benefits to the donor.

When a natural disaster devastates a country that we don't agree with, America (and the world) typically rallies to provide humanitarian aid to ensure that those who need help receive that help. Of course, it would be much less expensive to print up a bunch of vouchers that said something along the lines of "if we agreed with your government and way of life we would be dropping food and first aid supplies as opposed to pamphlets". That would certainly teach those people a lesson, huh?

I am more in the camp that sometimes one overlooks faithbased prejudices because the faithful themselves seem to have complicated and nuanced relationships to their own doctrines.

Politically correct "fundamentalism" is thwarting compromise in the US. Why does everything have to be so black and white, in a country that is obviously as morally inconsistent as other countries and cultures.

Why should I give money to an organization that doesn't have basic respect for all people, including the mentally ill, when there are PLENTY of charities that do? Have you ever had to work directly with Salvation Army? I have. There are a lot of charities competing for my assistance and I am going to give to the ones that I think do the most good. There is nothing "politically correct" about it. In fact, ignoring their faith-based bigotry and calling for everyone to just get along is much more "politically correct."

Frankly that doesnt bother me, regardless of any purported anti gay views/policies, they still do a wealth of good in my community, puttng people up in hotels who have lost their homes to fire, They are always at the scene of a large incident/fire in San Antonio handing out coffee, water, food, etc... to the emergency personell and the displaced victims.,(some who are gay) Feed the homeless in the city(some who are gay)... etc, etc.. Who would do this otherwise?

Who am I to throw down the gauntlet and say they are a bad agency and should not exist because of some bigotted views.

Seems perfectly OK to not give to Salvation Army because the discrimination gets to you. But to trash the organization as a whole, or to thwart its fundraising efforts would seem going too far. Not that anyone in this thread recommends that! I don't see anything wrong with the voucher if it expresses your priorities, either. I do think its good to pressure for change.

« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 08:36:46 AM by mecch »

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

I had no idea that Salvation Army is anti-gay. That is depressing. I can't get my head around any organization that is there to help less fortunate openly saying they are anti- anything, that defeats the whole purpose of what they are supposedly trying to do.

All I can say is a store has a responsibilty to its customers to provide an enjoyable shopping environment. Believe it or not when I worked as a front end book-keeper for a large grocery chain I recieved many complaints about the soliciting for money by this organization and others including the girl scouts selling cookies. Its a hard place because you can't please everyone. However I don't feel like its unreasonable to restrict the amount of time these charities can be posted in a store front. Without these guidelines the store will be associated with and develop a reputation for always having solicitors and eventually people may choose another store that doesn't have such of a problem.

I know it sounds silly but some people feel bad or put-out when they are not able to contribute, and I assume being constantly reminded of that may not sit well. Others will disagree with that particular organization. Again you can't and won't please everyone, but I feel like the customer's overall shopping experience should be considered. As for the Salvation Army, while I may personally think twice about donating to this organization again I feel like I probably will continue to donate because overall they are serving a greater good... whether it be accepting of my lifestyle or not.

Who am I to throw down the gauntlet and say they are a bad agency and should not exist because of some bigotted views.

Well, it bothers me. And while I agree that they do some good works, that doesn't make it ok for them to discriminate against LGBT people. It's no different than discriminating against a person because of the colour of their skin. People are born the way they are born and it's as simple as that.

I'm not saying they should not exist. I'm just saying they should drag themselves into the 21st century and cease their discriminatory practices. Hell, if the Poop Pope can say condoms may be used to prevent hiv, then they can ditch their anti-LGBT policies.

Ann(who will be donates to local charities that do not have this sort of institutionalised discrimination)

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

ugh! there are so many other agencies and non-profits that are inclusive and don't have anti-gay agendas.

Yes they may provide some great services, but really, this whole "Hate the sin, Love the sinner crap" continues the ignorance and hate. When my partner was dying, his brother brought some of his "friends" for the SA to visit him. When I came back to the room, I found that they had put bible verses on post-it notes all over the hospital room to "insure" he would be saved. What a bunch of insensitive, ignorant crap! The SA also supported Prop8 here in CA.

Well, it bothers me. And while I agree that they do some good works, that doesn't make it ok for them to discriminate against LGBT people.

I'm not saying they should not exist. I'm just saying they should drag themselves into the 21st century and cease their discriminatory practices.

Ann(who will be donates to local charities that do not have this sort of institutionalised discrimination)

Oh I agree with you Ann. I am not saying it's OK for them to discriminate against LGBT, and I agree 1000% that they need to come into the 21st century. But , IMHO, in the instance of the SA I believe the good far outweights the bad. There was a gay Poz guy in one of my support groups that lived at the SA for a bit (when the Local AIDS Foundation had no room for him), they fed him, clothed him, he also went through their drug program, and found a job through the SA. Was he out to them? I dont kow. Would they have denied him this help if he came out to them? i dont know. But when you are on the streets and desperate you would probably accept help from anyone, regardless of their views. I would If I was hungry enough and cold enough.

If the 37 cents I threw in their little red bucket can potentially go to help out someone like this guy (HIV or not) then I think its to a good cause.

Oh I agree with you Ann. I am not saying it's OK for them to discriminate against LGBT, and I agree 1000% that they need to come into the 21st century. But , IMHO, in the instance of the SA I believe the good far outweights the bad. There was a gay Poz guy in one of my support groups that lived at the SA for a bit (when The SA AIDS Foundation had no room for him), they fed him, clothed him, he also went through their drug program, and found a job through the SA. Was he out to them? I dont kow. Would they have denied him this help if he came out to them? i dont know. But when you are on the streets and desperate you would probably accept help from anyone, regardless of their views. I would If I was hungry enough and cold enough.

If the 37 cents I threw in their little red bucket can potentially go to help out someone like this guy (HIV or not) then I think its to a good cause.

-WIll

I agree with you completely, Will. The bottom line needs to be getting help to those who need it and I doubt that anyone in need cares about the social, religious, or political views of those who helped them.

I would hate to envision a world where, when someone purchases a food basket at the local grocery store, they attach strings to it that say "this food should only go to someone who supports my sexual orientation, religious convictions, or political views, etc".

I completely support boycotts against for-profit organizations/businesses or PACs that have different views of the world than I do, but believe that charity needs to be just that: charity.

The Mormon Church does some notable charitable stuff as well. So does the Evangelical Baptist Church.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Ann's got it right. There are plenty of homophobes, those ignorant of the discrimination of the SA (and other charities), and those that just don't care (even in this thread) contributing to ensure that SA gets along just fine. As long as the other charities do legitimate work without discrimination, where's the harm making sure that funds get to those who won't be helped by groups like SA? No harm and lots of benefit... sounds like a winning choice to me. Of course, it does require that one put forth a bit more effort in researching non-discriminating charities (links provided above) than just walking by an annoying jingling bell and tossing in a handfull of loose change or dollar or two for that 'feel-good' feeling.

Well, it bothers me. And while I agree that they do some good works, that doesn't make it ok for them to discriminate against LGBT people. It's no different than discriminating against a person because of the colour of their skin. People are born the way they are born and it's as simple as that.

I'm not saying they should not exist. I'm just saying they should drag themselves into the 21st century and cease their discriminatory practices. Hell, if the Poop Pope can say condoms may be used to prevent hiv, then they can ditch their anti-LGBT policies.

Ann(who will be donates to local charities that do not have this sort of institutionalised discrimination)

I agree with you completely, Will. The bottom line needs to be getting help to those who need it and I doubt that anyone in need cares about the social, religious, or political views of those who helped them.

I would hate to envision a world where, when someone purchases a food basket at the local grocery store, they attach strings to it that say "this food should only go to someone who supports my sexual orientation, religious convictions, or political views, etc".

I completely support boycotts against for-profit organizations/businesses or PACs that have different views of the world than I do, but believe that charity needs to be just that: charity.

In my mind, they'll be charities when they are charitable without discrimination. Otherwise, they're not making the help they promise available to all. How about they advertise their discrimination at the donation point? That'd make for some a good reform.

There are plenty of homophobes, those ignorant of the discrimination of the SA (and other charities), and those that just don't care (even in this thread) contributing to ensure that SA gets along just fine.

What I care about is the fact that the SA put up a fellow gay male HIV'er in the dead of winter, fed him, clothed him, etc. when the San Antonio AIDS Foundation could not , and the Methodist shelter was full as well.

Of course, it does require that one put forth a bit more effort in researching non-discriminating charities (links provided above) than just walking by an annoying jingling bell and tossing in a handfull of loose change or dollar or two for that 'feel-good' feeling.

David you dont know me , and you have no clue how much I donate on a regular monthly basis to different charities 100% of them HIV related (perhaps I should submit them to you for your approval), or the charity work I do, and none of it is for that "feely good" feeling. It's because there is a need. And I suppose in the interest of full disclosure this year to date I have donated to SA a total of 37 cents, and they may get a few bucks off of me this season, the lack of which will not change the SA administrations ways, but it may in fact go towards helping someone like the guy from my support group. THATS the reason I throw a few cents in the bucket....not because I need a feel good feeling.

THATS the reason I throw a few cents in the bucket....not because I need a feel good feeling.

-Will

Then I daresay you do not need the permission or approval of others in this thread to do what you think is best. Nor do those of us who disagree need approval or permission to direct our money, time and energies who neither judge nor explicitly discriminate against us.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

In Louisville we have a huge fundraiser, Crusade for Children, every June that is sponsored by a local radio station that runs programs from every right wing whack job out there. Thousands of volunteer firefighters and others all over the state work all year to raise millions of dollars to assist child assistance programs. The difference the Crusade makes for children in need is tremendous. Firefighters are at almost every major intersection collecting money a couple of weeks prior (a nice perk), when I go through those intersections I have to put aside the fact that I am totally against all that radio stations programing and contribute some change due to the difference the crusade makes.

I will do the same with SA until someone provides evidence that a person seeking assistance was denied because they were homosexual. When that happens then I will join the voices to boycott.

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

In my mind, they'll be charities when they are charitable without discrimination. Otherwise, they're not making the help they promise available to all. How about they advertise their discrimination at the donation point? That'd make for some a good reform.

In this case, their discrimination is against who they decide to hire as employees or allow to enlist in their "army". The discrimination is not against potential recipents of the funds that they raise. As a side note, the little old lady who has been ringing the bell at my Publix grocery store has no problems with homos. She has a granddaughter who is a lesbian

As long as the other charities do legitimate work without discrimination, where's the harm making sure that funds get to those who won't be helped by groups like SA?

With respect to charitable organizations, "size does matter". The international infrastructure of the SA makes them an excellent vehicle to reach more people than a smaller charity (and, no, I'm not advocating steering clear of smaller charities). If the stats that have been reported are accurate, I'd say that the SA does a remarkable job of leveraging economies of scale to maximize their impact on people in need. Personally, I think that 11% overhead is pretty impressive.

Nor do those of us who disagree need approval or permission to direct our money, time and energies who neither judge nor explicitly discriminate against us.

I completely agree. Giving to a charity is, of course, personal. I guess I just don't understand what type of satisfaction one can expect to achieve in trying to de-legitimize another's choice of charity by printing pamphlets up and stuffing them into collection buckets in an attempt to make an activist statement. Why not simply refuse to contribute? To each his own, though.

This really isn't the type of hill I'm willing to die on. I guess I hope that for each pamphlet that gets "stuffed", a quarter or a dollar gets dropped somewhere else so that someone, somewhere actually benefits from the activity.

Will, I do not 'know' you very well, though I've met you, talked to you in person, read your posts, etc... and know you about as well as one can know somebody with the contact we've had. I was not criticizing you or directing my post you you in particular, so there's no reason to make it personal.

Since you mention it... did the SA know the guy was gay? If so, and they still helped them, then the particular person / people you dealt with are great; it's too bad that the official stance of the SA is not so charitable. Kudos to the ones who helped your acquaintance, and shame on the SA for not having a policy of non-discrimination. Personally, I don't care how much you donate; that's up to you and is no concern of mine.

What I care about is the fact that the SA put up a fellow gay male HIV'er in the dead of winter, fed him, clothed him, etc. when the San Antonio AIDS Foundation could not , and the Methodist shelter was full as well.

David, where is the discrimination there?

In what way was the help not available to him?

David you dont know me , and you have no clue how much I donate on a regular monthly basis to different charities 100% of them HIV related (perhaps I should submit them to you for your approval), or the charity work I do, and none of it is for that "feely good" feeling. It's because there is a need. And I suppose in the interest of full disclosure this year to date I have donated to SA a total of 37 cents, and they may get a few bucks off of me this season, the lack of which will not change the SA administrations ways, but it may in fact go towards helping someone like the guy from my support group. THATS the reason I throw a few cents in the bucket....not because I need a feel good feeling.

In this case, their discrimination is against who they decide to hire as employees or allow to enlist in their "army". The discrimination is not against potential recipents of the funds that they raise. As a side note, the little old lady who has been ringing the bell at my Publix grocery store has no problems with homos. She has a granddaughter who is a lesbian

For what it's worth...http://www.americablog.com/2004/11/details-of-salvation-armys-rabidly.html"Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life. There is no scriptural support for same-sex unions as equal to, or as an alternative to, heterosexual marriage." - Salvation Army USA Web site, Dec. 2003

"[Homosexual activity is] as rebellion against God's plan for the created order.... Homosexual practice, however, is, in the light of Scripture, clearly unacceptable. Such activity is chosen behaviour and is thus a matter of the will. It is therefore able to be directed or restrained in the same way heterosexual urges are controlled. Homosexual practice would render any person ineligible for full membership (soldiership) in the [Salvation] Army." - Salvation Army Australia Web site (emphasis added"

I wonder if they are allowed to actually select who they help? They sure do select who they'll hire, and it's not those who are gay or lesbian.

Then I daresay you do not need the permission or approval of others in this thread to do what you think is best. Nor do those of us who disagree need approval or permission to direct our money, time and energies who neither judge nor explicitly discriminate against us.

I stated previously in this thread I dont know whether he was out to them. But out or not, he was gay...so I guess in that respect the jokes on the SA. But show me an instance of them turning away a Gay person in need (on the streets), I dont have any evidence of it (if I did perhaps my feelings would be different regarding the good they do). all I have to go by is what happened with my aquaintance.

I used to send money to the Salvation Army every year. But a couple years back, after all this publicity over their discriminatory practices, I wrote them a note and said I would not be contributing again until they changed their policies so as not to discriminate in employment.

But, if they read it, they didn't take me off their mailing list

There are many alternatives to the Salvation Army. One of the best, with very low administrative loads and opeartiing in just about every community in the US is the United Way. Of course, since they redistribute monies to local not-for-profits, in essence you are trusting their judgment about which local agencies to fund. Local food banks and emt squads are also good choices and typically will have low expenses -- but it is worth checking them out in guidestar or other sources. And, of course, there is the Red Cross.

Finally, applying a markets perspective, one might note that Ford's views are entirely consistent with the story Will reports. If the Salvation Army is typically among the worst providers of services to the homeless it is not surprising that they would have an opening when others do not. If prices are constant (free), higher quality vendors will fill up first. That is not, however, an argument in favor of supporting the lower quality vendors.

One of the best, with very low administrative loads and opeartiing in just about every community in the US is the United Way. Of course, since they redistribute monies to local not-for-profits, in essence you are trusting their judgment about which local agencies to fund.

I donate to the local United Way through payroll deduction and we are able to specify which agency(s) receive our donations.

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

I believe in random acts of kindness.Before we left home (CR) I was buying a big sack of chicken food and noticed an indigenous man at the store with his wife and infant. As typical in CR, he was ignored and the sales man waited on everyone but him.As my goods were being rung up I told the salesman to also add the boots, which the indigenous man obviously wanted to buy on to my bill. Not being able to speak Bribri, all I could think to tell him was happy birthday in Spanish. He was too shocked to speak.Giving directly to the needy is another option rather than organizations with issues.