Without being a HAM fan, he has definetely lost a LOT of points only with Singapore and Abu Dahbi he would be up there, around 220 easily, and in title contention, because the top2 would have less points.

But Vettel also has some DNF (Valencia, Monza), which would be around 35-40 points more. Alonso also has a couple of unfortunate DNF in first corner, that looking at how those races evolved, he would also have around 35 more points...

Lewis has had bad luck this year but at the same time he is definitely harder on the car than other drivers. You have to wonder why he has such bad reliability compared to his team mate over three years.

This race's electrical problem most likely wasn't his fault and that is bad luck for sure but there has to be some reason why he always has issues like crashing into people and suffering gearbox failures etc

I just categorically don't believe that Mclaren have been sabotaging him for 3 years...nonsense.

rabid nonsense....this thread is about this year. He's had one coming together this year... PM in Valencia for which PM was penalized.

There is little to no doubt that had LH enjoyed a similar operational ability / reliability that his competitors enjoyed (i.e. not perfect but standard), he would be champion this year.

The number of points McLaren have thrown away is alarming. One will have to really dig deep in the history books to find a top running team with a decent car being so incompetent alround.

Monaco - If we are working on the assumption that it is the teams fault that Vettel passed him then he lost 2 points and Vettel inherited 2.

Valencia - I believe he would had won had his final stop gone smoothly as he was ahead of Alonso and could've managed his pace, thus conserving tyres. 25 points lost after collision with Maldonado. Alonso inherits 7.

Great Britain - One of those weekends, seemed like McLaren gambled on wet setup, but we will never know. No change.

Germany - Hard to know where he would have finished had he not got a puncture, his pace wasn't magnificent. 4th? Maybe could have benefitted from Vettel's penalty. We'll never know.12 points lost.

Belgium - once again I have no idea. We don't know what he could have done in the race but we also don't know what would have happened with Alonso. I'm happy to leave this one. There is the possibility that he could have finished ahead of a low starting Vettel, but he drove well.Nothing doing.

58 point lead over VET with 2 races to go. WDC. and I was being conservative on my point givings.

In reality its closer, due to Vettel's DNFs, but that kid won 4 in a row, seemingly unstoppable.

You're assuming A LOT of things and being insanely jealous with points. You could do the same with Vettel and give him a second place finish in Monza, the win in Valencia, and P2 in Malaysia, but it'd be pointless, as this is. Teams make mistakes.

That's some odd topic.
You only count the thing that you want to count. For example you are not counting Valencia where Vettel could have not get DNF. You assume that he needed to get DNF and Mclaren shouldnt. That's a big flaw in your logic.

Similar with Singapour, and yday Abu Dhabi. McLaren flaw is that it has low reliability. Only mistakes that could be avoided are silly pit stops and Barcelona totally retardness. Few other with settings etc. I believe it is around 50-60 pts.

But saying "IF HE WOULDNT DNF HE WOULD WIN AFTER VETTEL'S DNF" It's totally retarded.

Why Hamilton cant DNF, and Vettel would DNF is beyond my logic.

Still if not McLaren **** ups he would be around Vettel and Alonso, but he wouldnt be 60pts ahead, cause McLaren car is fast but isnt reliable as Ferrari for example.

They built an unstable/unreliable rocketship. How does that boil down to luck? It's about striking a balance between ALL the components. They failed to do so. Yes he has lost many points to things out of his control but certainly some of those issues were in the team's control and he's part of the team.

Fully agree, F1 is not a 1 lap race, it is a 300Km race. If your car can´t make it, it is not being unlucky...Again. in the same way that Hamilton or Button benefits from the speed of the car to get poles and dominant race leads, they suffer the weakness of the car as well. You can´t say that having a reliability problem is bad luck and not saying that having a super car is not good luck.

The F2012 is slower, but better if can make it until the end. In fact i think it is unfair to the other teams "inheritants" of points when in fact those points are given at the end of the race and not due to a weird abstraction of what it would be IF my car was as fast as it is and reliable as well (only the F2002 and the F2004 -mostly- were such a superlative car).

This is clearly a list out of dreamland. Hamilton lost arguably more points then any other driver due to technical problems with the car. Just like what happened in 2010 with Seb. Still it is a McLaren Mercedes problem like it was a Red Bull Renault problem, the car has not only to be fast but also to finish.

@TomNokoe "Silly to do Alonso as him and ferrari have near enough maximised everything."

Spain, Monaco, Canada, G.B, Belgium, Italy, Japan.. but my point is that we can make such a list for every driver, nobody extract every chance in 100%, but i agree though that Lewis is by far most affected by team mistakes/team and his mistakes/bad luck.

While I agree with the spirit of the topic, we can also ask how many points/wins/titles McLaren has lost because Hamilton?. This is a team sport, sometimes the driver screw it, sometimes the team.

This season Mclaren have cost Hamilton, last season Hamilton was cost Mclaren, big time. I would even go as far as saying that the bad luck this season makes up for the bulletproof reliability he enjoyed in his first two seasons, and arguably won him the championship in 2008.

This season Mclaren have cost Hamilton, last season Hamilton was cost Mclaren, big time. I would even go as far as saying that the bad luck this season makes up for the bulletproof reliability he enjoyed in his first two seasons, and arguably won him the championship in 2008.

Its swings and roundabouts isnt it. Always is over time in F1.

McLaren and Lewis have given each other a lot and also, cost each other a lot over the last few years. I wager Hamilton would be a 0 times WDC without McLaren, and would end up a 0 times WDC without McLaren.

woulda coulda shoulda - in motor sport (just like any other) lots of "stuff" happens - it is all part of the sport.

If you are going to do this to illustrate how far up the table your favourite driver could of been then you also need to carry out the same examination for all the other drivers on the grid - otherwise it is totally one sided to the point of being meaningless.

What is it about Hamilton that he seems to attract the more "extreme" fan that actually do him no favours with threads like this.

Every driver loses/inherits points through there own/others misfortunes so accounting for every single point like this is nonesense.

I think most level headed people will agree that Hamilton would be in a very strong position in the WDC if it wasn't for the amateurish performance from the McLaren sporting operations and laughable reliability this season.

woulda coulda shoulda - in motor sport (just like any other) lots of "stuff" happens - it is all part of the sport.

If it's part of the sport, why is discussing it on here so stupid? You're talking about people discussing an element of motorsport on a motorsport forum. It's ok to have ten thousand pages or whatever about a twitter comment, but you can't talk about frustration that a season of great driving has been spoilt by other factors? Maybe it can be biased or not, or not totally accurate, but I hardly think it's unreasonable to discuss it at all.

Something else to think about is that if McLaren had spent more resources and time to ensure that the car was more reliable, may be it wouldn't have been as fast as it is now. The bottom line is, when you start playing around with IFs and BUTs the possibilities are endless.

Button's car is reasonable reliable

Lewis has had bad luck this year but at the same time he is definitely harder on the car than other drivers. You have to wonder why he has such bad reliability compared to his team mate over three years.

This race's electrical problem most likely wasn't his fault and that is bad luck for sure but there has to be some reason why he always has issues like crashing into people and suffering gearbox failures etc

I just categorically don't believe that Mclaren have been sabotaging him for 3 years...nonsense.

I believe the subject matter is about 2012 and i believe saying Hamilton causes his car to breakdown is just a fallacy

Agreed 4th place finish at best, Tom you need to be a bit more objective for the list to be considered more seriously

4th is where Hamilton was going to finish if Maldonado hadn't crashed into him. Without the pit stop blunder he would have been ahead of Alonso on track and with more control over his final stint; I don't know if he would have won because his tyres may still have given up the ghost, but a podium was highly likely. Most importantly he would have been several seconds up the road from Chavez's guided missile.

We all know Hamilton has driven brilliantly and should be fighting for the championship, if not leading it. But given I don't think anyone would argue with that (maybe Gotyoubytheballs or whatever his name is, although I'm not sure he counts) it doesn't seem a particularly productive thing to dwell on. It's just depressing.

rabid nonsense....this thread is about this year. He's had one coming together this year... PM in Valencia for which PM was penalized.

There is little to no doubt that had LH enjoyed a similar operational ability / reliability that his competitors enjoyed (i.e. not perfect but standard), he would be champion this year.

The number of points McLaren have thrown away is alarming. One will have to really dig deep in the history books to find a top running team with a decent car being so incompetent alround.

No suggesting that Lewis is actually world champion (well he would be if it wasn't for all the nasty things everyone does to him!!) is rabid nonsense. Trying to figure out why these things happen to him is fairly normal.

You said: "he is definitely harder on the car than other drivers." Don't try to play the victim card when you get called out on an unsubstantiated claim pulled directly from your nether regions.

I remember he brought up the same point around August 2010, after Hamilton had been on a long run of consecutive weekends outqualifying and finishing ahead of JB. It's obviously the last refuge of a scoundrel.

He IS real....it's all those who are trying to claim that Lewis is actually champion, as that's all this thread is about..., who are in cuckoo land.

I think you are actively derailing the thread. For example: Who is trying to claim that "Lewis is actually champion"? Do you not agree that he would not be in the WDC fight for the abnormal amount of operational and reliability issues for example?

You are also ducking out of your previous statement about car breaker Lewis....

Six-Sigma might help with the production process but it has nothing to do with the statistical difference between 2 team mates.

One guys car breaks down 3/4/5 times more often than is team mate, then statistically the most likely explanation is that he is harder on his car than his team mate. Very simple, you would have thought.

Other explanations, far more unlikely, will need very strong evidence to back them up, evidence we have seen none of so far.

Lewis has had bad luck this year but at the same time he is definitely harder on the car than other drivers. You have to wonder why he has such bad reliability compared to his team mate over three years.

This race's electrical problem most likely wasn't his fault and that is bad luck for sure but there has to be some reason why he always has issues like crashing into people and suffering gearbox failures etc

I just categorically don't believe that Mclaren have been sabotaging him for 3 years...nonsense.

That's what some people thought of Kimi when he used to driver for Mclaren. He was a car broker. I believe Kimi hasn't have a DNF this year?

He IS real....it's all those who are trying to claim that Lewis is actually champion, as that's all this thread is about..., who are in cuckoo land.

The only person in cuckoo land is you for even claiming that Hamilton is harder on his cars than any other... You're trying to make your opinion a fact and you are no better than any other person in this thread, give your head a massive shake and then when you try to make the statement again at least back it up with something instead of pulling it out of your arse.

Six-Sigma might help with the production process but it has nothing to do with the statistical difference between 2 team mates.

One guys car breaks down 3/4/5 times more often than is team mate, then statistically the most likely explanation is that he is harder on his car than his team mate. Very simple, you would have thought.

Other explanations, far more unlikely, will need very strong evidence to back them up, evidence we have seen none of so far.

(Wow, do people still say "get real"?)

It's been a similar story with bad pit stops. Most of them have affected Lewis rather than Jenson (5-1 or something like that). Does that show that a seemingly even-handed process can be skewed by ill-fortune or is that down to Lewis doing something wrong also?

Six-Sigma might help with the production process but it has nothing to do with the statistical difference between 2 team mates.

One guys car breaks down 3/4/5 times more often than is team mate, then statistically the most likely explanation is that he is harder on his car than his team mate. Very simple, you would have thought.

Other explanations, far more unlikely, will need very strong evidence to back them up, evidence we have seen none of so far.

Six-Sigma might help with the production process but it has nothing to do with the statistical difference between 2 team mates.

One guys car breaks down 3/4/5 times more often than is team mate, then statistically the most likely explanation is that he is harder on his car than his team mate. Very simple, you would have thought.

Other explanations, far more unlikely, will need very strong evidence to back them up, evidence we have seen none of so far.

(Wow, do people still say "get real"?)

I don't agree with this. I think the most likely explanation is bad luck.

Six-Sigma might help with the production process but it has nothing to do with the statistical difference between 2 team mates.

One guys car breaks down 3/4/5 times more often than is team mate, then statistically the most likely explanation is that he is harder on his car than his team mate. Very simple, you would have thought.

Other explanations, far more unlikely, will need very strong evidence to back them up, evidence we have seen none of so far.

(Wow, do people still say "get real"?)

Or maybe its the fact Mclaren have a history of reliability issues, does 2003 and 2005 ring any bells to you? Or is Raikkonen now harder on his car than anybody else. The bile you have wrote is laughable...

Oh and another thing, what about Seb in 2010 was he harder on his car then Webber?

Please... and nobody says get real anymore but to be honest you certainly should.

LH has driven superbly this year, he's fundamentally been let down by unreliability... which is frankly highly unlikely to be his responsibility (unless someone can state categorically that McLaren has a weakness for being driven over kerbs to the detriment of it's fuel pump or other items - I hear Gary Anderson spoke about "kerb-hopping" yesterday-).

To say LH is the unluckiest driver this season isn't a stretch either imo, the only one I'd possibly throw in there with him is Schumacher, but he's had a couple of crappy races all on his own!

This season actually reminds me of Kimi in 2005, extremely fast car, you never know when it's going to break down though. Now of course people say Kimi is hard on his car.... I think this season is proving something to the contrary seeing as he's completed every lap.

The list is "interesting", I think some of the "pitstop" claims can be removed though, at the start of the season a 4 sec stop was seen as good, now we're often seeing 2.5-3 secs, does that mean 4s is crap? Not in my book. Yes, there was some sticky wheels, or other operational errors, but every single team gets that, it's part & parcel of it. Seems no-one wants to give McLaren credit for the good things they've done, plenty of good stops, the updates have generally worked (ask MS/NR about theirs - won't take long!) and from the outset a very quick car.

As for Valencia, I think giving LH the "win" doesn't stack up at all under the slightest scrutiny and the problem with that is some doubters will need no excuse to rubbish the entire list because of it.

In real world, yes LH could/should be right up there with 2 races to go, but he isn't. It is unfortunate that his bad spell of issues coincides with Red Bull getting it sorted and SV nailing all the points.

It's my opinion that if you're a fan you have some choices, you could be positive, be delighted that LH has shown that 2011 appears to be "just one of those years" and there is no downward slope for him at this time, you'd also probably be happy that he's leaving a team that isn't giving him what he needs and finally you could see a "legacy" ahead for him - new team, clearly a disappointing return from their 3 years as a constructor and then LH arrives.... what happens next?

And having composed my essay I return to the topic to find a page of personal bickering..... but no reports.

Seriously guys, some of you do need to "GET REAL" and pack it in. This forum can be as good as you make it, refusal to follow the fairly loose rule guidelines is not acceptable.

If a thread isn't to your taste, avoid it, if a post breaks the rules, report or ignore it. Otherwise all that will happen is a lot of your effort goes to waste because WE (The Mods) have to remove pages & pages of posts.

A reasonable thread was closed yesterday purely down to YOU (the members) taking it off-topic & getting personal, that's not the future we'd like to see here, but it will be unless you guys take some responsibility for what's here.

It's been a similar story with bad pit stops. Most of them have affected Lewis rather than Jenson (5-1 or something like that). Does that show that a seemingly even-handed process can be skewed by ill-fortune or is that down to Lewis doing something wrong also?

It just makes it even more unlikely that it is all down to chance. 5-1 is 32/1 chance multiplied by the chance of breakdowns 32/1 say. 32/1 * 32/1 = 1024/1 too unlikely to be taken seriously tbh.

I think you are actively derailing the thread. For example: Who is trying to claim that "Lewis is actually champion"? Do you not agree that he would not be in the WDC fight for the abnormal amount of operational and reliability issues for example?

You are also ducking out of your previous statement about car breaker Lewis....

58 point lead over VET with 2 races to go. WDC. and I was being conservative on my point givings.

In reality its closer, due to Vettel's DNFs, but that kid won 4 in a row, seemingly unstoppable.

which was the reason I replied back when this was part of the Hamilton thread. The process of ignoring everybody else's misfortunes, focusing only on Lewis' and then with some suspect math declaring him WDC is silly.

Or maybe its the fact Mclaren have a history of reliability issues, does 2003 and 2005 ring any bells to you? Or is Raikkonen now harder on his car than anybody else. The bile you have wrote is laughable...

Oh and another thing, what about Seb in 2010 was he harder on his car then Webber?

Please... and nobody says get real anymore but to be honest you certainly should.

This is why the 3 years of statistical comparisons between the 2 drivers, that Rocket referred to, is relevant to the discussion.

These threads are very unproductive.. Yes Lewis has been unlucky this year (more so than others some could argue), but working out the lost points and everything is silly as it still doesn't change the fact that he was still unlucky and did not get the points.

I'm enjoying the end of the year and was glad to see some actual action on the track, next year is an opportunity to start afresh and we can stop whining about would have, should have, could haves!