2 Samuel 16:9,11 - "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head...let him alone, and let him curse; for the Lord hath bidden him."

Matthew 7:15 - “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Matthew 24:11 - “…and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”

Friday, January 28, 2011

Maryland Man Busted for Taking Speaking Gigs Based on His Fake Past

Why does Liberty University, and so many SBC pastors, still tolerate an unrepentant Ergun Caner in their classrooms and pulpits? Why is First Baptist Church Jacksonville flying Caner in to speak at their Pastor's Conference to high school students and seminary students? Why is Caner still getting speaking gigs at SBC churches?

The good news is that while SBC pastors and SBC leaders like Mac Brunson may tolerate and still give speaking gigs to someone who has repeatedly lied to Christians for a decade about his past and never given a full explanation or offered a public apology, in the real, everyday world this sort of thing is NOT tolerated.

A very interesting story broke yesterday about a Maryland man who was arrested for accepting money for lectures he gave based on his past as a special forces agent, a claim that turned out to be false.

William Hillar - pictured above - marketed himself for years as a retired special forces agent, and was able to secure speaking gigs to military groups, law enforcement agencies and schools. Apparently he was incredibly convincing, and very entertaining, and had people fooled for about 10 years.

- as reported by TBD, "...for years this man [Hillar] invented a persona so that he could market himself as a speaker, teacher, and trainer."

- Hillar was willing to even speak lies involving his family to make his story seem more convincing. Hillar claimed that the movie "Taken" was patterned after his life, as his daughter had been kidnapped and killed. Nope, she is alive and he never was a special forces agent.

- One of his neighbors summed up Hillar very well: "To make up a whole life's story in order to draw attention to himself, I think is very sad."

- Hillar to this day is unrepentant. According to the TBD reporter, "He seems unrepentant. In court this afternoon...he said he plans to continue working as a lecturer, teacher and trainer on these exact same subjects."

- Hillar even fooled the government, and got himself a speaking gig with the FBI at one point.

- Hillar was knowledgeable and entertaining, and had his audiences fooled by being a captivating and motivating speaker. One of Hillar's victims, Mark Stone of the Rural Justice Training Center in Wyoming said that Hillar kept a class of 60 students riveted by telling stories from his special forces days. "His stories were so detailed,” said Stone. “Probably things he read in a book....he was great...He knew a lot of information and he was motivational."

The similarities of Hillar's story to Caner's are so obvious to anyone who has closely followed Caner. He transformed himself from "E. Michael Caner" to "Ergun Mehmet Giovani Caner" and gained popularity in the SBC preaching circuit shortly after 9/11 by telling us members at FBC Jax that he was "raised in Europe", and that he was "trained to do that which was done on 11 September" and that he was in "Islamic Youth Jihad". He secured a speaking gig to our armed forces as someone who understands Islamic culture based on being raised in Turkey. He has told audiences that his dad had three wives, when there is no evidence whatsoever that this is true. He over and over told audiences of debates that he had with Muslims, yet there was no record of these debates. He told stories to the Ohio Free Will Baptists at a men's retreat of his days growing up in Turkey and watching American television to learn of our culture, when records show he lived in the states since he was about 3 years old. Caner is on tape speaking jibberish multiple times to fool his audiences into thinking he speaks a foreign language. Need I go on?

And please don't tell me that Caner repented publicly. He has not. At one of his first speaking gigs AFTER he was let go as president of Liberty's seminary, he told a reporter that it would take a lot more than edited videos to take him down, called his critic bloggers who helped expose his lies "frustrated people in their basement" and he mischaracterized his lies as just getting a few names and dates wrong. That is not repentence. That is denial, and ad hominem attacks on those who speak the truth about him.

Lying about one's past is not in and of itself illegal. But when you accept money to speak to people or give lectures based on a falsified past, that is a different story. Let me remind you of this advertisement that was on Phil Waldrep's Living With Joy website until a few days after I wrote an article about it, when it magically disappeared:

Problem is, Caner was not a terrorist. Never trained as a terrorist. Certainly never a "hardened terrorist". He never "came to America to be a terrorist". Yet this website was attempting to sell a CD for $35 to hear an audio tape of a "hardened terrorist".

Does this news story about Hillar help you to perhaps understand why Caner does not publicly repent about his decade of deceit?

I want to add some information here about this story that is not in the main press accounts. If you read this piece at the TBD website, the point is made that what helped take Hillar down were retired men who WERE in the Special Forces, who took great offense of a man making money off of lies claiming to be one of the them! They wrote letters and posted information on the Internet about Hillar, until eventually an investigation was done.

This makes me think of James White. James White was the most vocal minister calling for Caner to repent during 2010. White was absolutely blasted in the most un-Christian fashion by some Southern Baptists in their desperate attempt to defend Caner. They attacked White for his Calvinist views, they even contacted one of his employers at a seminary to get him fired, claimed he was "obsessed" with Caner. They ridiculed him and tried to discredit him. It was unbelievable to see this happen to James White at the hands of other Christian ministers as White was being true to his Christian convictions and seeking the repentance of a Christian brother.

Why did White get so involved in the Caner fiasco and put so much at risk in publicly calling for a fellow minister to repent of his lies? If you remember, White explained that he was compelled to get involved, because Caner was falsely claiming to be doing what James White DOES do: and that is debate people about the Christian faith and Islam. Caner claimed to have hundreds of debates all over the world, but there is not a record of any of them. White was attempting to protect the integrity of his profession, from someone who was falsely claiming to be a Christian-Muslim debater.

These men retired from Special Forces don't take kindly to imposters. Said Jeff Hinton, a retired Master Seargent: "These guys are using our reputation to scam innocent people. It really makes us angry."

Most professions root out those who use fake credentials and lie about their past to advance professionally and financially, and they and expel them from their midst. Most professions will call out someone who is gaining in their field from lies - not so apparently in the SBC. Instead in this case the SBC turned on the one who was blowing the whistle and tried to harm him.

But it really doesn't have to be that way in Christian circles. There is a way of restoration, and it is called confession and repentance. Caner and Brunson know that public sin by a minister requires public confession and repentance. Brunson has practiced this in his church with his ministers, and Caner and Brunson wrote about "private sin, private confession, public sin, public confession" in their 2005 book "Why Churches Die" (p. 208).

But sadly, Ergun and the pastors of the Southern Baptist Convention who continue to promote Caner believe that the embarrassment of a public confession and repentance by one of their rock star preachers is too high a price to pay in order for them to practice what they preach. And you know what? Maybe this story of William Hillar helps to explain just how high the price can be.

I commend James White and the Special Forces guys also, for taking a stand to protect their professions. It shows that they respect the work they do and take it seriously. They want to be proud of it and want others to see and appreciate its value.

That preachers will protect Caner shows them to be more like him than unlike him. Else they would throw him out of the group.

As far as public repenting, changing, etc., I think those who maintain longterm deceits like that have some kind of personality disorder involved. It's not like they do something wrong and are sorry for it. It's a part of who they are.

Bob Felton at Civil Commotion from time-to-time writes commentary on his blog about some of my blog posts, and I thought this one was worth mentioning, Bob says I'm having a "conniption fit" over Ergun Caner. Pretty funny! Thanks Bob!

"And here he's saying these false prophets have lived this hypocrisy so long that their conscience is like scar tissue. It's formed callousness so that they are no longer even sensitive to the hypocritical nature of their existence. They are just liars who have lied so long, hypocrites who have hypocritically so long that they are desensitized to it. The truth is inside is wretchedness and rottenness that they cannot restrain." - John MacArthur on 2 Timothy 4:2

Telling a lie for the purpose of "furthering the Gospel" is hypocritical and deceptive. You advance the Kingdom using God's methods, never man's and God would never has us deceive someone to convince them that Jesus is the way.

So I guess my question is why has Caner not been arrested? I am not saying he should be nor am I calling for him to be, but if this is as serious as being against the law then how come he has not been arrested? Could it be that Hillar was arrested because he lied about military or law enforcement past or is it a crime no matter what the profession/situation?

I agree with the one above who said vote with your feet. Will the Caners lie-I mean preach-to an empty room?

I guess they'd still make the bucks, but it wouldn't be as much fun without the laughing audience for their show.

This is really more like a public-speaking convention. It's a bunch of men who are good showmen. They all love the craft, so they like watching each other's performances.That's why Caner can't wait to see Brunson's show.

If it was really just about the gospel, they'd be out witnessing or helping somebody. None of this is about helping anybody. It's probably also about selling books.

Ergun Caner, repent of your evil sinful wickedness, that is if you can? Are you really a Christian? I think you are not. I do not see how an unrepentant, deceiving liar can be, which you are. I think God has not given you the gift of repentance as of yet. I think you have not been born again from above of the Holy Spirit of God. What a terrible place to be, fooling yourself and fooling others. You can fool some of the people some of the time but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time and you certainly cannot fool the Lord Jesus Christ, God. Or do you know full well the evil, sinful, wicked things you are doing? Are you really a Muslim in disguise? Causing great, great harm and division to the Body of Christ? Your day of reckoning is coming sooner than later when you least expect it...it is appointed unto you once to die then the judgement....

As he snuffs the gale of popular applause!

(J. A. James, "Ministerial Duties Stated and Enforced")

"In all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God." 2 Corinthians 6:4.

This verse implies that ministers are to labor for God—surely not for the preacher's fame. SELF is an idol which has been worshiped by far greater multitudes than any other deity of either ancient or modern heathenism. A minister is the last man in the world who should be seen at the altar of this vile abomination—SELF. And yet without great care he is likely to be the first one there, to linger there the longest, to bow the lowest, and to express his devotion by the costliest sacrifices!

Many become ministers merely to acquire popular applause. 'Fame' is their motive and their aim. To commend themselves, is the secret but powerful spring of all they do. SELF is with them in the study directing their reading, selecting their texts, arranging their thoughts, forming their illustrations—and all with a view to 'shine in public'. Thus prepared, they ascend the pulpit with the same object which conducts the actor to the stage—to secure the applause of approving spectators. Every tone is modulated, every emphasis laid, every attitude regulated—to please the audience, rather than to profit their souls; to commend themselves, and not Jesus Christ. The service ended, this bosom idol returns with them to their own abode, and renders them restless and uneasy to know how they have succeeded. If they are admired, they receive their reward; if not, the first prize is lost!

It is nothing in abatement of the sin, that all this while evangelical sentiments are uttered. Orthodoxy is the most direct road to popularity. Christ may be the text—when SELF is the sermon! And dreadful as it seems, it is to be feared that many have elevated the cross only to suspend upon the 'sacred tree' their own honors! and have employed all the glories of redemption—merely to emblazon their own name!

The ministry is not intended to be a platform, where the petty manufacturer of 'tinsel eloquence' and 'rhetorical flowers' shall display to a gaping crowd his gaudy wares!

When carried to this height, this is the direst, deepest tragedy that was ever performed by man, since it ends in the actual and eternal death of the performer, who forgets, as he snuffs the gale of popular applause, that it bears the vapors of damnation!

"The Spirit took me to the north gate of the temple's inner courtyard, where there was an idol that disgusted the Lord and made Him furious!" (Ezekiel 8:3)

"So I guess my question is why has Caner not been arrested? I am not saying he should be nor am I calling for him to be, but if this is as serious as being against the law then how come he has not been arrested? Could it be that Hillar was arrested because he lied about military or law enforcement past or is it a crime no matter what the profession/situation?"

It is against the law to impersonate a law enforcement officer. It is not against the law to impersonate being a former terrorist.

I agree with Lynn. There is a responsibility with people who keep listening when they know whats going on. Do I understand why FBC would have him speak to teenagers. Heck, no I don't understand. Maybe I've missed part of the story. But to the people who go and listen, to the people who scheduled him, to the people who continue to support this, where is your personal accountability?

"I mean, Caner's just doin' his thing. It's the audiences that look stupid for listening."

"This is really more like a public-speaking convention. It's a bunch of men who are good showmen. They all love the craft, so they like watching each other's performances.That's why Caner can't wait to see Brunson's show."

Douglas 6:44 AM: An absolutely brilliant comment. And, at 6:44 AM! I am impressed. You should write. Maybe you do. That aside, your eloquent comment was perfectly stated and sums up the heart and mind of some in the pulpit today, in my opinion. I think it most heinous to disgrace the cross for fame and fortune. But God will judge who was sincere and who wasn't. We must be fruit inspectors. Spiritual discernment is given to the priesthood of the believer, and we must use it reverantly and seriously as before the Lord. That is why some of what is happening today is so painful to the believer.Hebrews 4:12: "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".

Rather than "pay" for questionable testimonies, why not use genuine testimonies. There are many out there. Some that have led heroic lives on battlefields. Many from wars that have been injured. Some that have lost loved ones in such as 9/ll. You can't beat "truth". Fiction in the pulpit, in order to tickle the ears is not the gospel. Someone asked "what is truth". My answer is " the word of God". My God does not need nor tolerate lies. His cross is proof enough.

No wonder there is so much confusion. Look I am reading thru the gospels and Jesus DOES NOT talk all about money as preachers say. Read it for yourself. Since when did our measure of faith in Him become about how much money we give? God will not share His glory with man so God's love and goodness, mercy and grace have nothing to do with His shed blood????? so therefore we are taught to give the 10 and then we are in right standing with Him.....

Not trying to make a point, just asking a question about why Caner had not been arrested?

Anon 9:43 So, maybe mailing his books would qualify?

I have thought about that myself. Since his books were based upon lies, shouldn't that be considered fraudulent and if so, if he has used USPS to send the books, that would/should constitute mail fraud.

Would Peter (the turncoat) be allowed into Leadership today by YOUR standards? Answer-------NO!!!

Would Paul (ex-con, murderer, terrorist) be welcomed by YOU? Answer-------NO!!!

Would David (Adulterer and Murderer) be accepted back and respected by YOU? Answer-------NO!!!

Would Moses (deserter and murderer) be the One that YOU would choose to lead us? Answer-------NO!!!

SO GLAD YOU ARE NOT GOD!!!!

SO GLAD FOR 2 CORINTHIANS 5:17

SO GLAD THAT "YOU" HAVE ACCESS TO HIS AMAZING GRACE AND FORGIVENESS...

REMEMBER....GOD CHOOSES THE FOOLISH THINGS OF THIS WORLD TO CONFOUND THE WISE....GOD IS CHOOSING DR. CANER....

DON'T PLAY GOD!!!!

January 29, 2011 12:20 PM

No one here is playing God. All most of us want is for Caner to admit to and repent for lying. At that point, I feel sure 99% of us would leave him alone. He has not done this. He may have done so privately, but Caner himself said in "Why Churches Die" that public sin requires public confession and repenting.

So I would like to ask you why it is okay for Caner to make such a bold statement and not want to live by it?

I do not understand the huge double standard when it comes to Caner? The only conclusion I can come to is that the supporters (Brunson, Falwell, etc) are doing so only for the money. There are huge financial partnerships here and this is what is keeping him alive!

Would Peter (the turncoat) be allowed into Leadership today by YOUR standards?Answer-------NO!!!

Would Paul (ex-con, murderer, terrorist) be welcomed by YOU?Answer-------NO!!!

Would David (Adulterer and Murderer) be accepted back and respected by YOU?Answer-------NO!!!

Would Moses (deserter and murderer) be the One that YOU would choose to lead us?Answer-------NO!!!

SO GLAD YOU ARE NOT GOD!!!!

SO GLAD FOR 2 CORINTHIANS 5:17

SO GLAD THAT "YOU" HAVE ACCESS TO HIS AMAZING GRACE AND FORGIVENESS...

REMEMBER....GOD CHOOSES THE FOOLISH THINGS OF THIS WORLD TO CONFOUND THE WISE....GOD IS CHOOSING DR. CANER....

DON'T PLAY GOD!!!!

January 29, 2011 12:20 PM

You are biblically illiterate.

You are suggesting that Paul, for example, stayed a murderer and persecuter of Christians even after being saved. Do you realize that? Of course not because you never carry your pedantic thoughts to their logical conclusion.

Paul was SAVED and that is why he STOPPED doing those things. What is Caner's excuse?

Moses never stepped foot in the promised land and died in the desert. David had Nathan confront him and was horrified by his own behavior. And so on. Please study on your own.

Christianity has been so dumbed down for people. Your words here cheapen His precious Blood.

For a crime to be committed, there must be a person who is victimized that files a complaint.

We're talking entertainment here. If a man is paid to be an entertainer, to tell stories, make people laugh, and he accomplishes that, and everyone goes home happy including the event sponsor who paid him and the attendees who paid entrance, all is well.

Now, if you take payment to speak in front of marines, and tell them you have lived under facism, socialism and democracy, and that you came to America at the age of 14 after learning of American culture through Turkish television, that MIGHT be a different story.

"Now, if you take payment to speak in front of marines, and tell them you have lived under facism, socialism and democracy, and that you came to America at the age of 14 after learning of American culture through Turkish television, that MIGHT be a different story."

I'm SO glad you brought that up. That right there gives you a BIG clue to who you are dealing with. Do you think you could stand in front of Marines-you're there to help prepare them for what they might face while putting their actual lives at risk-and you LIE to them? What kind of person could live with themselves after doing that?

It's a whole different thing to tell stories to a bunch of church people-that's what they want to hear. But the Marines? That's real life stuff.

To me, it's like Benny Hinn or something. They feel no guilt for victimizing people.

Jude 1:4For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

I agree with Atlantians: defending all manner of sin in the name of the gospel or tolerance or civility is a denial of the gospel. I also think that verse may be slightly misunderstood: the "and" isn't merely a conjunction of two different sins, but a cause/effect: by perverting God's grace, they thereby deny Jesus. This is EXACTLY what the aforementioned anon is doing.

"It is not the spirit if bitterness but discernment. And as you know if says something people will act like sheep. And this is not china we can worship where we want."

There is a HUGH difference between being a TALE BEARER and discernment. I was in that service and the anon either is trying to intentionally stir up trouble or heard him wrong. I for one have never been a Vines supporter and had he said that it would have RANG in my ears.

As far as worshiping where you want I have no problem with that. But if where you worship causes you to be, stay, or get out of fellowship with the Lord a wise and prudent person would take their family and go somewhere they felt more comfortable.

There is a HUGH difference between being a TALE BEARER and discernment. I was in that service and the anon either is trying to intentionally stir up trouble or heard him wrong. I for one have never been a Vines supporter and had he said that it would have RANG in my ears.

Jesus is the only one worthy of bowing to plain and simple. If you can not see this you may not be a christian. This is not intended to stir the pot, but only to glorify the one and only.

ANS: WRONG ANSWER ANON. I see clearly. Vines was doing what ALL speakers do. SUCKING UP. Vines was and still is a master at it as I discerned for 23 years under his ministry. Maybe that makes him and all other visiting preachers speaking in another church NOT CHRISTIAN. HMMM?aficionado

"This is not intended to stir the pot, but only to glorify the one and only."

I haven't been to a Pastors Conference on Sunday morning in several years, but when I use to make coffee for my Sunday School class I would get to church about 7:30 and park in garage #4(the one with the lighthouse). During Pastors Conferences they would open the garages at 7:00 instead of 7:30 so when I got there at 7:30 I often would have to park on the 3rd level or higher because Pastors would get there early to get a good seat in the auditorium. I went to church this morning, getting there at 9:30 instead of 10:00 thinking that parking might be a little hard to find, but when I drove into garage 4 it was just like any other Sunday where parking spaces were abundant and I parked on the 3rd level next to the crossover. But my biggest surprise was when I went into the auditorium at 9:47 I was shocked to see how small a crowd there was listening to Dr. Sullivan preach. I remember when you had to go into the auditorium for Sunday School just so you had a seat for the church service the next hour. I'm sure Mac Brunson has been to the Pastors Conferences in the past where it was packed out for EVERY service, especially the closing service. If I were Mac Brunson and I saw the numbers attending the Conference dwindling ever since I took over the church I think I would ask myself what am I doing wrong so that people don't want to come back. The only reason the auditorium was full this morning was because of the church members instead of the other way around when church members couldn't get a seat because of all the Pastors attending, even Mac Brunson himself said this morning that he couldn't draw this many to hear him preach.

You said what I call a personality disorder is actually sin. I disagree.

Of course there are stinkers among us who are simply liars. But there is such a thing as personality disorders-people think a certain way that's odd, and nothing can really be done about it. It's different from a regular person trying to deceive someone.

That's one of my problems with the Bible. It lumps people into giant categories. Life is way more complex and varied than that.

"Of course there are stinkers among us who are simply liars. But there is such a thing as personality disorders-people think a certain way that's odd, and nothing can really be done about it. It's different from a regular person trying to deceive someone."

We have personality disorders because we live in a fallen world. Because of sin. Your answer leads me to believe that you do not think the power of Christ cannot overcome such things.

BTW: How does one know who is regular and who has a personality disorder if they are consistently doing the same bad things?

"That's one of my problems with the Bible. It lumps people into giant categories. Life is way more complex and varied than that."

So I take it you have a problem with God! The bible is the word of God and this is all that should matter.

Lets take a look at what the bible says about the complex matter of lying.

Question: "Is it ever right to lie?"

Answer: The Bible nowhere presents an instance where lying is considered to be the right thing to do. The ninth commandment prohibits bearing false witness (Exodus 20:16). Proverbs 6:16-19 lists “a lying tongue” and “a false witness who pours out lies” as two of the seven abominations to the Lord. Love “rejoices with the truth” (1 Corinthians 13:6). For other Scriptures that speak negatively of lying, see Psalm 119:29, 163; 120:2; Proverbs 12:22; 13:5; Ephesians 4:25; Colossians 3:9; and Revelation 21:8. There are many examples of liars in Scripture, from Jacob’s deceit in Genesis 27 to the pretense of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Time after time, we see that falsehood leads to misery, loss, and judgment.

There are at least two instances in the Bible where lying produced a favorable result. For example, the lie the Hebrew midwives tell Pharaoh seems to result in the Lord’s blessing on them (Exodus 1:15-21), and it probably saved the lives of many Hebrew babies. Another example is Rahab’s lie to protect the Israelite spies in Joshua 2:5. It is important to note, however, that God never condones these lies. Despite the “positive” outcome of these lies, the Bible nowhere praises the lies themselves. The Bible nowhere states that there are instances where lying is the right thing to do. At the same time, the Bible does not declare that there is no possible instance in which lying is an acceptable option. (gotquestions.org)

What is so complex about telling the truth? While telling lies has produces a favorable result or two in the bible, nowhere in the bible does it say lying (including those that produce the favorable results) was right, praised by God or an acceptable option. So... no matter what the outcome, lying is wrong!

I agree that lying is wrong. I was talking about people who do it naturally or casually for no reason or something. Google "personality disorders," read over the descriptions, and see what you think.

I am not excusing lies. And as for Caner, I don't know the man. It just struck me that a man who can tell a bunch of lies to audiences of all sorts for 10 yrs., with video cameras rolling, etc. has got quite a nerve. It made me think something's wrong in his head.

Anonymous 8:59,

Evidently the power of Christ cannot overcome such things because obviously he has not done so with Caner. The power that effected Caner was people starting to notice the lies and going to a bunch of trouble to tell other people that he was making stuff up.

As far as how do you tell the difference between regular people and those with personality disorders, I'd say if you're a close friend or a relative of the person, over time you just realize "something's not right with the way this person views the world or themselves, and that's why they're so difficult or make so many problems for themselves." And, no, I do not think Christ cures such things.

Finally someone who is saying what I've been saying for months! Caner obviously has a personality disorder. He can't stop lying and he probably never will.

I'm a Christian and do believe that God can heal, but I've honestly not known anyone with a personality disorder to get better in this lifetime.

It doesn't mean that Caner can't be a professor or a useful Christian, but he needs to apologize for what he's done publically and admit he has a problem. (But I really don't think it will happen because pathological liars won't admit they lie)

People like Geisler are just enabling him...they can't believe he's a liar or they have to admit they were "taken". It might take many more years for some to recognize the pattern of deceit. You are right, you often have to be close to someone to start catching on that something "isn't right in the head". I'll bet Caner's wife knows something is wrong, but she can't even bring herself to admit it yet. She's stuck being the good Christian wife who tries to back up and believe in her husband.

Lynn,I agree with your thinking that something may be wrong in Caner's head. I personally know someone who lies/exaggerates like that. After years of putting up with this, I finally had to cut off all contact. This person has been called out many times, is better for a short while and then always returns to the same behavior. It's like an illness that can't be overcome. I personally don't think Caner can stop for very long. It is highly doubtful he suddenly began lying after 911 and equally doubtful he will/can stop after being exposed. From watching human nature, people are who they are. It is what it is. The huge disappointment is in watching men I once looked up to with admiration, put their stamp of approval on this. It's taken quite a while to get there, but I now realize it's not about God, it's about the money and protecting at all costs whats coming in.

"The huge disappointment is in watching men I once looked up to with admiration, put their stamp of approval on this. It's taken quite a while to get there, but I now realize it's not about God, it's about the money and protecting at all costs whats coming in."

January 31, 2011 9:36 AM

Excellent Evaluation - common sense people see this as what it is - money & protection of one another. Shame that a known & proved pathological liar like Caner is still allowed to stand in the pulpit.

"IF YOU will just dust off the cover and read that BIBLE, YOU will see that all William Hillar and Dr. Caner did was emulate many of our heroes in Hebrews 11 did."

Sometimes I wonder if there is anything a Christian leader could possibly do where Anonymous Ben would admit that it was wrong without equivocation. And that some type of correction was in order.

If a popular Christian leader gunned down a group of people during a service, would he use the scripture where God commanded someone to take out one of God's enemies and claim that the pastor had received a word from the Lord?

If a popular Christian leader committed adultery right there in the sanctuary, would Anonymous Ben use the example of Abraham and his maidservant and claim that God didn't delivery quickly enough on his promise of an heir?

How about if a popular pastor showed up for the service completely naked? He could use Isaiah 20 as a precedent.

This is the same type of rationalizing and scripture twisting that is being used to justify lying from the pulpit in the case of Caner.

In this manner, any type of unGodly behavior (no matter how sinful) can be made palatable for a Christian audience.

Congratulations, by having no discernment skills, no ability to interpret scripture in context, and a philosophy that comes from the culture and not from the Bible, you have lowered the ethics of the church to a standard lower than that of the unsaved culture at large.

If BP was perceived to be in need of a "shakedown" following the Gulf oil spill, I would not know how to describe what the SBC needs - for perpetuating generations of absolutely crazy theology that has literally wrecked lives and relationships along the way.

Speaking of liars in the bible I recall the man who ran up and told David a lie that he had killed King Saul which he hadn't as Saul fell on his own sword. The man who lied was taken out and killed for his lie. Also, Joseph's brothers lied about him being killed by an animal and their lie led them into many a nightmare. I agree that lies are never condoned in scripture regardless of what kind of spin is put on it.

Did you ever stop and think that the Caner brothers interest in the High School ministry at FBC is more than the superficial swipe you attempt? Hang around and watch what happens next. Many young men are about to become influenced positively for furthering the gospel of Jesus Christ.There is a sweet odor of God's gifted men encapsulating the pungent and bitter authors of hate and discontent. Is your anger simply an admission of personal defeat? Admit your sins, humble yourself, and you become the better man. This could be your finest hour.

Honestly, its like some of you think that Caner did nothing wrong. You are twisting this situation in to "slandering" Ergun Caner. Its all right out there on videotape for anyone who is listening to hear. I've never seen such a twisting of the truth in my life as this talk about how wrong people were that pointed out the obvious, and all these ministers going right along with it. I guess thats why I no longer listen to Baptist preachers. I've watched too much for too many years. Its over for me. I can't stand to hear them anymore. Its become nothing but a joke. I love the music at FBC Jax. But thats all I can listen to, and I won't be going back to anything except the music part or music programs.

The thing about these blogs, etc, is this...they aren't going to change the people you are writing about. You wish you could make the situation honest but its not. Accept it and move on. Stop wasting your life trying to change people that don't want to change. Move on.

And I know that can be difficult to do, when you have people possibly pressuring you to go to these churches, or your families are there, etc. But you HAVE to think for yourself and decide, can I really accept this or not? And then make your move accordingly. Because silently just sitting there is just the same as actively participating in wrong...isn't it? Is it right to lie in the pulpit for personal gain and then never apologize for it...and then go around the country speaking to youth? I've heard the videos.

A gifted speaker? Gilyard was also a gifted speaker, I heard him.

This is no joke, and I don't like people speaking for God and pretending that God accepts lies in the pulpit and using scripture to defend it. Thats borderline blasphemy. Until Caner apologizes, why is he speaking?

Anon 8:56Your summary is reason why folks are leaving the Baptist churches - no one is going to change the cheerleaders of the Caner camp, but sooner or later he's going to be hurting for money as his reputation of being a so called "born again" liar is spreading.

I think this is interesting stuff. Okay, look at all those preachers at the conference. Think about what they all have in common. What traits and talents do they have that made them so successful? What do you have to do to get to where they are?

They didn't get there by being humble, or by being the best Christian in the world, etc.

"Honestly, its like some of you think that Caner did nothing wrong. You are twisting this situation in to "slandering" Ergun Caner."

What do you expect when they follow Blind Guides?

The comments from these followers of men are so pedantic they are going to run off anyone who has intellect and critical thinking skills. The comment section will only show sound bites that prove this person does not really know the Word or Christ.

I'm anonymous 856 again. I would like to say that to me, it would change the situation if Caner admitted what he did, apologized, and went in to some form of counseling and told everyone he was in counseling. Its the acting like the ones who did wrong are the people who called him out that Im having such a difficult time accepting. Everyone deserves a second chance. But not if they don't think they blew it the first time around. And what does it speak to about the people having him speak? I don't get it.

There has been no apology, just a whole lot of speaking to youth. And I followed his twitter for awhile, so I saw how he's been going all around the country speaking. By the way, to the person who was asking, they had he and his brother apparantly speak to the youth on saturday at the pastors conference in jax. Now why would you do that? thE YOUTH???????

You know, a pastor who told a lie about me destroyed a good portion of my life, so I have a bit of a personal problem with "those who lie in the pulpit or out of it"...I think thats why Im so done with this. I know the damage of a lie firsthand, and when it comes from a preacher....Its faith shaking.

But does it personally affect me that I have a really difficult time attending church these days or really knowing even what to think. Yes, it does. You have to start to look at the message and say, wait a minute...if this is what they say they believe and this is how they act, or if this is what I say I believe and this is how I act, then what is really going on here?

Caner is just one of many things I've seen in my life in the church, one of many many things.

I would hope someday he sees for himself that he needs to take personal responsibility for his actions. That would be a witness to the truth of Jesus Christ.

"Ergun Caner is a Professor & Apologist at the Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary and Graduate School in Lynchburg, Virginia. Raised as a devout Sunni Muslim along with his two brothers, Caner converted in high school. After his conversion, he pursued his call to the ministry and education. He has a Masters degree from The Criswell College, a Master of Divinity and a Master of Theology from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and a Doctor of Theology from the University of South Africa. He has written numerous books with his brother, Dr. Emir Caner, who is the President of Truett-McConnell College, a Baptist college in Georgia."

For those of us who have been around long enough, you will remember back in the 70’s and into the 80’s we, in the Baptist churches, were barraged with almost weekly reports of satanic cult worship that included ritualistic human sacrifices usually of infants. Every week there were reports of demonic possessions of people, cars, furniture and even flying scissors. Do any of you good folks remember?

When was the last time you heard of anything like this?

Seldom if ever, right?

Why?

Because when the claims were finally investigate they were all proven to be false, everyone, not one was true and enough church members finally said “enough” if it’s not true we don’t want to hear it.

Are we in the church forever condemned to be victimized by false teachers with their lies because it is provocative and entertaining? Are the true works God not enough?

Why do you want to hear a false report from anyone? Why do you insist on participating in someone else’s falsehood? Why do you want to aid in someone’s exploitation of one of this country’s darkest hours, 9/11?

Don’t tell me it’s about the Gospel, that’s a complete and utter lie! Why do you think we use the term “the Gospel truth?” The Gospel is spread by the word of our testimony and the Word of God. If our word is no good, if our testimony is false, what good are we to the Gospel?

Good grief not only does sin that used to slink around in the back allies, strut down the middle of the street; we stand it up in our pulpits and praise it. What is the world to think?

Eisenhower got in trouble over lying about Gary Powers and the U2 Spy Plane back in the 1960's; Nixon got into trouble and lost his position for covering up his aids on Watergate; and Clinton almost lost his position over his lying about Lewinsky. Lying can cost you your postion here on earth. I wonder how many wonder about what their position could have been in Heaven if they hadn't lied. UMMMMMMMMMMMM.

How many of us have made a living telling fish stories? How many of us lie to our employers and keep our jobs? How many of us have exploited anothers' a tragedy for our own selfishness?

You mentioned Dr. Rogers. Have you ever seen Dr. Rogers deal with a minister caught in sin? It was all very public and about the scariest thing I have ever watched in my life. Even now years later my heart is in my throat just thinking about it.

How many lies have you told from the pulpit about your testimony, skills, life experiences, at the same time capitalizing on one of America's greatest tragedies for financial gain? That's what I thought.

That's called hyperbole. It's an exaggeration and everyone knows it. No one believes after this statement is made that the person has eaten chicken a million times literally.

Of course, that has nothing to do with the Caner case. He was not exaggerating for effect. He was sharing his testimony, life story, life experiences to show how much Christ had changed his life - especially in light of 9/11.

NO ONE suspected that he was making it all up. If you can't see the difference in that and your example you need to get professional help.

Notice that this is another example from the culture not the Bible trying to excuse sin.

I'll be glad to admit that you are right as soon as you can show me scripture where Christ did what Caner did to lead people to the father.

As a preacher who knows that the only thing I have when I preach is my integrity, people that lie when they are supposed to be presenting God's truth are a bigger problem than all the atheists, agnostics, and false religions out there.

That includes the damage done when people protect liars from the consequences that losing their credibility deserves. Now "Baptist preachers" get lumped in as approving of it, when it's far from approval-worthy.

And it's not like a "fish story" that's often assumed to be false. Your "testimony" is told with a presumption of truth. A sermon is preached where people assume it will be true. Can some of you not see the difference here?

No, apparently we can't. We didn't learn in the 80s/90s with our rush to find ex-satanists, and now we have our rush to find ex-Muslims.

When we can find some real Christians instead, that will be the best thing we can have.

A few people may be being saved but it is no where near the number that it should be. Allowing sin to continue amounts to unbelief and unbelief limits the Holy Spirit. Remember even Christ could not do any works there because of their unbelief.

"Caner got 'caught in a moment'...let's give him some Grace..how about it Dog?????

____________

"caught in a moment" THAT LASTED 9 YEARS? Does anyone know where I might find a place in scripture where Jesus lied to get people to repent and follow Him, even if it was for just a moment?

This is a no-brainer. It's not difficult and any Christian who cannot see the truth of what Caner did and continues to do, just isn't facing the facts. The man lied, embellished, and did not repent. Instead of taking responsibility for his sin, he continues to blame others. This is not the kind of man we should be following, let alone subjecting our children to. Who would send their child to a liar, to learn truth?

When (and if )he repents, then it will be time for forgiveness.

Any Christian who cannot tell fact from fiction regarding the multitude of lies Caner has told, needs to spend some time getting reacquainted with the Holy Spirit and the scriptures.

It's very sad that some of the people of God will make excuses for sin instead of condemning it.

There is a sweet odor of God's gifted men encapsulating the pungent and bitter authors of hate and discontent.

Did you happen to bake up a batch of Miss Dro's brownies before you wrote that, Jethro? Because, dude, that was so deep! Seriously, it brought tears to my eyes. I think I'm going to embroider that on a pillow.

How about if a popular pastor showed up for the service completely naked?

Defenders of Caner are actually publicly admitting that the powerful Holy Spirit needs an entertaining speaker before he can save people.

Does anybody ever get saved without the entertaining or persuasive speech and the music to get them into the mood?

This was brought to my attention even more, recently, when I watched a clip of Benny Hinn criticizing Joel Osteen in front of a huge audience. Every time he made a critical remark, the organ played a little dramatic line in the background. Do you not see how all this stuff is orchestrated?

Now I haven't witnessed Baptist preachers having the organ help them out during a sermon yet, but they get help from the music during altar call speeches. Bone up on how to manipulate groups of people. It's fascinating stuff.

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2Ti 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. hm

"DON'T BE SILLY....BE SENSITIVE TO THE NEW WINE SKINS THAT GOD IS WORKING IN!!!"

As Ecclesiastes teaches us, there is nothing new under the sun.

No my emotional and immature friend, this is the oldest sham in the world. Double-talk, flim-flam and greed all repackaged for the Christian community. Much like what the Pentecostals tried decades ago.

Unfortunately there are enough naive and biblically-illiterate Christians out there to make them very rich.

I'm addicted to your site lately, but I can't take looking at that guy's picture many more days! ha. If only he were really good-looking, that might help.

As far as souls being saved, people coming forward after hearing a charismatic speaker, with music playing, and people all around them providing more atmosphere, peer pressure-to repeat the sinner's prayer: that is saving a soul from hell? If I was still a Christian, I'd look at that experience with skepticism. Don't you?

"As a preacher who knows that the only thing I have when I preach is my integrity, people that lie when they are supposed to be presenting God's truth are a bigger problem than all the atheists, agnostics, and false religions out there."

"That includes the damage done when people protect liars from the consequences that losing their credibility deserves. Now "Baptist preachers" get lumped in as approving of it, when it's far from approval-worthy."

Readers: this person who is making the outlandish comments about God using a liar, and an angry man, new wineskins etc....this poster is jerking your chain. In my view they are a troll, probably don't even believe what they are saying, and are trying to demonstrate the absurdity of defending Caner, by themselves being absurd.

Anonymous Ben,Is the Dr. Rogers’ sermon you are referencing based on 1 John 2:16:For everything in the world--the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does--comes not from the Father but from the world.As I remember it Dr Rogers was saying you can know a man’s motivations based on the scripture above, in particular the part about “boasting…comes not from the Father but from the world.”

Oh yeah! I had seen this in The Blues Brothers, one of my favorite movies. Actually my husband and I attended a black service once. The music was great, but so loud I think it damaged my hearing, seriously.

Don't whites eventually adopt some things from black culture? I know the penecostals are pretty dramatic too. Actually white Baptist preachers are already dramatic, they just need to take it to another level by adding some cool organ or guitar chords at the right moments!

Hey, it might put people in the correct mindset to bring money up to the altar!

However---if he said he was one place and was another, and did not correct it when he made the error, then he's lying.

If it's deliberate, it's a lie, and an inexcusable one.

If I say I was at Wal-mart and was really at Target, and it was a mistake, that's one thing. If you show me the receipt and say "you were at Target" and I refuse to admit to it, now it's a lie. Anybody can be mistaken once.

How one can be mistaken about where he grew up, that I don't get. Of course, none of the great powers in the SBC are coming by the church I serve anyway, so it won't matter that I wouldn't let him preach. He wouldn't condescend to do it.

Thanks for your suggestion WD. Once I scan a few words and see it is a "troll", I not only don't comment I don't read their comment either. The low IQ defender is wasting his/her time as no one cares what he/she is saying.

And I never get tired of this one! It just gets better every time I watch it. Kenneth Copeland appears (red shirt, tan suit) just before the 2-minute mark and later rolls around on the floor, and the bespeckled redhead near the end steals the show.

Looks like Copeland is embarrassed about what a fool he just made of himself. This is the state of so called charismatic Christianity today. This is regular stuff on TBN,Daystar and other religious tv networks.Absolutely nauseating.

Watching the Hagan/Copeland specatcle you notice a couple of things. 1.)All of these people are in "Reserved" seating, that means more than likely they are VIP's or have come with a VIP. 2.) Many of those in that section are virtual who's who of the "Prosperity Gospel". IF you have watched and studied this non-sense there are many familiar faces there that routinely show up during TBN's praise a thon or some other ridiculous episode.My take is these folks were all "tipped" prior to this service and told to "get in on it" and the others will follow. This power of suggestion is routinely used by the faith healers and laughing revival charlatans.Kyle

Do not touch My anointed ones, And do My prophets no harm." 1st Chronicles 16:22

HOW CAN "YOU" SLEEP AT NIGHT?

February 2, 2011 9:39 PM

Child, don't you have some homework or house chores to do? You spend way too much time on this blog, and you are way over your head in the discussion.

Mac Brunson....Anointed? Yeah, with big fluffy title, powerful friends in the SBC, that sweet land deal, and enough nepotism to make a politician blush. Stop basking in the glow of some mega-preacher/rock star/CEO type and get real.

Wowsers! Just watched all the clips. Thanks for sharing them. Didn't the pagans used to have orgies? Maybe it'll come to that with these people at some point. And since it's all infectious, if the preachers start removing clothing, the audience will follow, right? Oh, and in one clip, the funniest part is watching the white people try to get their groove on. It just doesn't work! ha.

I could see psychology students studying these things as a demonstration of emotional manipulation in large group settings.

With the money part, I wonder if it's not really greed that motivates the audience. I mean do they really go thru the next week expecting to actually get wealthier? I don't think the results really matter nearly as much as the emotional experience and high they are getting each Sunday. It's kinda like going to a rock concert or getting high-it just is fun, makes you feel good, makes you want to do it again.

Like people who go to a bar and drink and hang with their friends after work. They know it's all short-lived, doesn't solve any problems-but it meets an emotional need and helps them forget the day-to-day reality of a lousy, boring job.

I'd say in the mega-churches, it may be toned down quite a bit, so that it will be accepted by people who are more reserved, but it has the same purpose.

As a military veteran, it is sad that this guy gets arrested for taking money for lying about his past and yet the feds will not prosecute vets and non vets alike that falsely wear medals of valor or Purple Hearts in order to impress, deceive, raise their status like this guy did in others eyes.

Of course, what did you expect from the FEDS. They cannot even make their congressional dining room stay in the black.

This Egyptian clash is getting out of hand. It could escalate into the entire regeon. You might want to tie the sad state of the mega churches {not all megas are bad}and their lust for more money and larger congregations, and the growning Muslim problem. I see the media trying to befriend the Egyptian Muslims as if they are not the same radicals that want to take over the whole world.A thought!

However, keep the fire under Brunson. He believes that you will eventually go away. The next plan as I see it is for him to start crying poormouth so he can start selling off some of the buildings owned by the church. ie, Childrens building. Remember, he never has enough money and he wants to move the church. In my opinion!

Clicker

About Me

We're small, insignificant, and harmless. But we have a loud, piercing bark that seems to annoy those in mega churches the most. Not Kool-Aid drinkers, only fresh, filtered water, please; with Grape or Cherry flavoring from Walmart. "Let him alone; God hath bidden him to speak:"