If this is legit, I have a real problem with this. The language of it sounds like "hey, we know he's a nut job, but we like the legislation we're getting pushed through and we don't want to lose power, which we surely would if we invoke the 25th, so trust us we'll manage the idiot".

This is terrifying. They are either running a shadow government or staging a silent coup. Either way, they are all still complicit never mind the CYA of this. Anyone who doesn't resign is just as guilty. And how does this play on the world stage? I'm sure Putin is chuckling.

Itís not a shadow government. Itís been pretty obvious from the getgo that Trump is incompetent as a President. A fairly decent chunk of Republican voters know this as well. Theyíve all been hanging with him because of the policy, and because they really think Dems are that bad. And publishing an op/ed in arguably the USís most influential paper is the opposite of silent.

The real message here isnít that Trump is an idiot. Itís saying to conservatives, ďHey, we got our tax cut, and our Justices, we shoved it in the face of liberals, we made ourselves heard. But now Trump is more of a detriment to our cause than a help. We have control of everything, but we arenít getting that much done. Weíve outgrown him.Ē

We know that everyone from Ann Coulter to Shapiro to McCain thinks that Trump is a boob. This could be coming from anyone. It sounds mainstream GOP on its tone, but who knows? Itís a power grab by some faction of the right.

So are they waiting to get another Supreme confirmed? Hoping for Mueller to do their work for them? I mean, they are hanging on to a sinking ship for a reason. What's the end game?

Yeah, I think Iím with Markalot. There is not at present a clear challenger to Trump. Nor is it clear how exactly what strategy to pursue to do that. So, I feel this is less of a hero trying to wake up America than a fairly standard political move off attacking someone in the press anonymously. The charges are more serious than you usually see, but thatís because everyone has already written off the usual affairs, financial double-dealing, and stuff that you would normally use.

IMO, itís aimed more at changing the upcoming Mid-terms than the Presidency. Someone doesnít want the Trump wave to dominate the GOP. If the Trump clones lose the House, that is only a mild setback to regaining control of the party. You are thinking long term. They are not trying to change policy, they are trying to capture stability. Trump, his supporters, and the Trump clones are not super-stable personalities.

Even if you actually think Trump is fantastic, itís not good the extent to which he dominates the party in the minds of voters. I think the Dems just got a taste of what happens. Once Obamaís eight years were up, shit fell apart.

I think it is self serving pettiness though. The op ed does nothing, even the Washington Post opinion writers were pretty critical of it. Some political hack with delusions of grandeur is helping to save the world by telling us how awesome the resistance is.

John Kerry calls it a constitutional crises, again misusing the damn term. How the hell does discussing the 25 amendment (section 4 specifically) to the constitution equate to a crises? The constitution basically has multiple ways to throw a peaceful coup, either via impeachment or the 25 amendment.

In political science, a constitutional crisis is a problem or conflict in the function of a government that the political constitution or other fundamental governing law is perceived to be unable to resolve.

Seriously dems, shut the fuck up and vote, the world is not coming to an end. Trump sucks, we know.

IMO invoking the 25th amendment is inherently a constitutional crisis because it's unclear what happens next. Who are the principle officers of the executive branch who get to make this decision? What if Trump decides he does not want to leave? There's no set criteria for when a President can be removed. If the President insists he is fit, but Congress says he is not, then what? You go to the courts? What happens if the President says the Courts don't have the power to decide? Or if Congress says it.

This has never happened before. So I think anytime you are breaking new ground and fighting over the constitution in a way that balances the power of the three branches it's a constitutional crisis. They would have been crazy to try it.

Impeachment too, probably constitutes a crisis. You can already see the problems because half the time the conservatives are like "We don't care what Trump did. You impeach by vote, and you can vote anytime you like. Oh, it seems you don't have the votes. So sad!" And then the other half of the time they're like "Campaign finance law violation, is that really a high crime or misdemeanor? Come on. Stop abusing the constitution." So either you can vote out the President any time you want, or you need some kind of serious criminal charge. You can't have it both ways.

The constitution is hugely, heavily weighted towards the way of removing an elected official being to vote them out of the office. As it should be. The other alternatives are really only supposed to be used in exceptional circumstances. If you've got an exceptional circumstance then, you have IMO by definition a crisis.

I still don't get your stance that Trump sucks but no one is supposed to talk about it. What is the media supposed to do? Not report the news just because Trump keeps doing shitty things? The media prints stuff for people to learn about and discuss. It's not their job to be a filter and strategically only write things so as to get people to vote for or against Trump.

I mean look, don't get me wrong. No one needs to read Chris Cillizza's "The top ten things that pissed me off about Trump in the last half hour" everyday. I don't know if it's particularly good for society that we're like this. But it's a symptom, and not the cause of anything.

For the last decade most mainstream media was content to look down their noses at Breitbart and stuff like that. They'd rarely address them and if they did it was just a snooty sniff like they weren't worth the time. And even before that there was Rush. So if going into hysterics somehow mobilizes people against you, the far right would have disappeared long ago.

All of these conspiracy theories like Alex Jones and QAnon... when people get angry and delusional enough they just make stuff up to be mad about. The far left Antifa-ish social media is no better.

You have a fair point about the media, but this time I said dems, not the media. Elizabeth Warren now wants the 25th invoked. In a way these people so worried about our democracy might be the very ones that damage it the most.

Look, I cannot stand Warren. I think her policies are mostly stupid and/or completely infeasuble given the current political climate. But what I really canít stand is I think she is completely fake. And she panders to the crazy, rabble-raising portion of the left. She deepens the divide and destroys whatever remains of rational political discourse. So... weíre agreed on Warren.

But Warren as a mouthpiece for Dems? I have an immediate instinctive reaction to say, ďNo. using people like this as opposition bogeymen is exactly what pushed the Right towards its current state. Quit trying to blame the left for everything.Ē

But, I think it is also true that Warren is sort of equivalent to ten years ago on the right someone who would have been Tea Partyish. And all of my conservative friends would have been like, ďYeah, I mean sheís a bit nutty but what do you want me to do, vote Democrat? Relax, sheís a party outlier, itíll stop before things get out of control. You screaming at conservatives only druves a bigger wedge and pushes people away.Ē Now ten years later, Iím all ďYeah thanks guys. Now weíre stuck with Trump and you lost your party because ou thought I was being hysterical.Ē

Now, to be fair, the alternative at that time was like, Obama. The left was moderate as hell. So moderate that the party is now splitting. So I donít think itís the same ask as blaming Dems for being mild on Warren when the alternative is Trump.

Still, regardless of the stakes we need to learn from past history. Ten years ago, Warren was the exact sort of person that had me screaming at conservatives like, ďDo you not see where this is going?!?Ē So maybe I should heed the warnings now that the sides are flipped.

OTOH, apparently all my yelling as well as my friendsí assurances they would stop thing before they got out of control amounted to jackshit. So, Iím not sure what you yelling at me and me assuring you that I see your point but you need to ease up is going to accomplish either.

As I have talked to those friends over the last few years, I think they have come to a greater understanding that no, Trump didnít hijack their party and they could have been more on the ball. But I have also come to a greater understanding that ultimately they likely could not have stopped it anyway.

So itís like yeah great we see each otherís side, we see a pattern repeating and a bad trend. Weíre agreed we need to stop this and we can work together. Now what? Weíre like 15% of the country and our philosophical core belief is that you canít just be dicks and try to force 80% of the country your way. So... we got nothiní.

It will take time for congress to start representing the people again. Take my congressman, Massey. I have heard a lot of bad shit about him but the reality is he works with dems and constantly reminds people that the other side is NOT evil. He is considered far right, pro gun, but not a member of the freedom caucus. You ask a lib in my area what they think of him and their hair will light on fire.

Like I said, Trump is good for democracy but we may have to wait years for it to sort itself out.

Like I said, Trump is good for democracy but we may have to wait years for it to sort itself out.

Interesting point. Trump may or may not be good for democracy, but the fact is that he got elected.

On my recent holiday in Belgium, my sister gave me a book she liked, and as it turns out, I loved it. The book is "The Unwinding", released in 2013, tracing what went "wrong" in America in the last 30-40 years. The best thing about it is that is was published in 2013, covering events through 2012, before Trump, but the book shows so clearly why a charlatan like Trump in fact would be able to get elected just a few years later.

The President should appoint the most qualified person in their mind, and Congress should investigate that person and confirm they are at least reasonably qualified. If they are, then vote them in. Anyone who deviates from this process should be voted out of office. It's pretty much that simple.

The President is NOT appointing the most qualified person, but rather the youngest and most staunchly conservative person. So, he should be voted out of office.

Congress is not investigating Kavanaugh to see if it he is reasonably qualified, because he clearly is. He's not the BEST person, or even in the top 5, but he's easily qualified. But the GOP isn't investigating Kavanaugh at all, they only care about him being conservative. And the Democrats only want him thrown out because of his conservative views. So, they should all be voted out of office.

Instead we're asking the FBI to investigate some sort of sexual assault that may or may not have happened 30 years ago, and people are trying to come up with conspiracy theories using Zillow.

This is a farce. Everyone on both sides should be voted out of office for this. Unfortunately, the voters are the biggest joke of all.