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Israel bombs Gaza
page 4

there seem to be two arguments here. one is saying “Palistinians are bad!!! really, they’re just…just bad people!!!”. the other is saying “actually, Israel is doing some really bad stuff, as seen here, here and here.”
it’s a trend that’s been going on for years.

> *Originally posted by **[OmegaDoom](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6568250):***
>
> there seem to be two arguments here. one is saying “Palistinians are bad!!! really, they’re just…just bad people!!!”. the other is saying “actually, Israel is doing some really bad stuff, as seen here, here and here.”
>
> it’s a trend that’s been going on for years.
Actually it’s similar to that, but it looks more like this: “Palestinians are killing civilians intentionally!” and the other side is saying “Israel shouldn’t be there, and they have blockades”.
@thepunisher – Your link isolates a few incidents of aggression by the Palestinians, and tries to explain those incidents, and show that they may actually be accidental or warranted. If that were the entire story, I’d be inclined to agree with you. But, it’s ignoring quite a massive amount of aggression that actually did happen. Specifically, 1,540 rockets launched THIS YEAR. Come on man. You can’t just leave that off, and say Israel is making it up, or just saying that to the media. We have pictures and video of giant fireballs in civilian areas as a result of Palestinian attacks. The difference between us, is that I’m willing to say, Israel is part of the problem. It is. You are unwilling to examine the faults of Palestine, which make Israel’s faults seem like child’s play. Here is a list of the rocket attacks your source fails to mention: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Palestinian\_rocket\_attacks\_on\_Israel,\_2012](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012)

> *Originally posted by **[MyTie](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6568574):***
> > *Originally posted by **[OmegaDoom](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6568250):***
> >
> > there seem to be two arguments here. one is saying “Palistinians are bad!!! really, they’re just…just bad people!!!”. the other is saying “actually, Israel is doing some really bad stuff, as seen here, here and here.”
> >
> > it’s a trend that’s been going on for years.
>
> Actually it’s similar to that, but it looks more like this: “Palestinians are killing civilians intentionally!” and the other side is saying “Israel shouldn’t be there, and they have blockades”.
>
> @thepunisher – Your link isolates a few incidents of aggression by the Palestinians, and tries to explain those incidents, and show that they may actually be accidental or warranted. If that were the entire story, I’d be inclined to agree with you. But, it’s ignoring quite a massive amount of aggression that actually did happen. Specifically, 1,540 rockets launched THIS YEAR. Come on man. You can’t just leave that off, and say Israel is making it up, or just saying that to the media. We have pictures and video of giant fireballs in civilian areas as a result of Palestinian attacks. The difference between us, is that I’m willing to say, Israel is part of the problem. It is. You are unwilling to examine the faults of Palestine, which make Israel’s faults seem like child’s play. Here is a list of the rocket attacks your source fails to mention: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Palestinian\_rocket\_attacks\_on\_Israel,\_2012](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012)
I took that video from Qassam brigades twitter its a rocket attack by qassam bergade.
and how come they be at fault? when they are being strangled and starved to death by an illegal blockade?
“Even a cat attacks the lion if cornered.”
how come they be at fault when their homes have been demolished?
or when their young ones killed?

> *Originally posted by **[thepunisher52](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6568622):***I took that video from Qassam brigades twitter its a rocket attack by qassam bergade.
> and how come they be at fault? when they are being strangled and starved to death by an illegal blockade?
> “Even a cat attacks the lion if cornered.”
> how come they be at fault when their homes have been demolished?
> or when their young ones killed?
If someone’s home is taken by force, it is not ok to go to the new homeowner, and blow up his children. The blockade is there to stop weapons, not food. On the contrary, the humanitarian aid is encouraged by Israel, even though the border crossing location for food aid is UNDER ATTACK by, guess who, the PALESTINIANS: [http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/israel-allows-humanitarian-aid-into-gaza\_811554.html](http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/israel-allows-humanitarian-aid-into-gaza_811554.html)
The people stopping food and humanitarian shipments into the country are the very militants you defend. They have themselves cornered with their own violence. Their hate for their new neighbor is what isolates them. The fight they insist on continuing is what is starving them. The hateful people they put in power are the ones who oppress them. This is their reality: their own doing. They are the only ones who can fix it. They need to stop trying to get rid of Israel. It isn’t going anywhere. The fighting is useless.

> *Originally posted by **[MyTie](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6568644):***
> > *Originally posted by **[thepunisher52](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6568622):***I took that video from Qassam brigades twitter its a rocket attack by qassam bergade.
> > and how come they be at fault? when they are being strangled and starved to death by an illegal blockade?
> > “Even a cat attacks the lion if cornered.”
> > how come they be at fault when their homes have been demolished?
> > or when their young ones killed?
>
> If someone’s home is taken by force, it is not ok to go to the new homeowner, and blow up his children. The blockade is there to stop weapons, not food. On the contrary, the humanitarian aid is encouraged by Israel, even though the border crossing location for food aid is UNDER ATTACK by, guess who, the PALESTINIANS: [http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/israel-allows-humanitarian-aid-into-gaza\_811554.html](http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/israel-allows-humanitarian-aid-into-gaza_811554.html)
>
> The people stopping food and humanitarian shipments into the country are the very militants you defend. They have themselves cornered with their own violence. Their hate for their new neighbor is what isolates them. The fight they insist on continuing is what is starving them. The hateful people they put in power are the ones who oppress them. This is their reality: their own doing. They are the only ones who can fix it. They need to stop trying to get rid of Israel. It isn’t going anywhere. The fighting is useless.
Put yourself in their shoes and tell me what will you do?
Do you know Israel has count minimum calory intake per person and does not let any more to pass?
As an official said
**“The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,**
[http://news.antiwar.com/2012/10/17/israel-counted-minimum-calorie-needs-in-gaza-blockade-documents-reveal/](http://news.antiwar.com/2012/10/17/israel-counted-minimum-calorie-needs-in-gaza-blockade-documents-reveal/)

> The difference between us, is that I’m willing to say, Israel is part of the problem. It is. You are unwilling to examine the faults of Palestine, which make Israel’s faults seem like child’s play.
You keep saying that, but i’ve yet to see a single instance where you’ve actually pointed out where you think Israel is the problem. You continually parrot pro-israel talking points, but nowhere do you criticize anything they do. Until that happens, you’ve no right to claim the upper hand in terms of fairness.
Now in contrast, I actually DO attack palestinian interests when I think they’re full of shit. You don’t do the same for Israel. You bitch about how unfair it is to be defending israeli interests against high odds, but you don’t admit any real problems stopping peace on the Israeli side.

Picture in the news today of a Palestinian father carrying the corpse of his 18 month old child, killed in an Israeli missile strike, targets have included pro-Hamas media centres despite journalists being considered non-combatants by most militaries and family homes of Hamas members with their families inside. (Just dispelling the myth that Israel isn’t more than willing to kill civilians)
[BBC seems to be staying quite neutral on the conflict](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20389384)

> *Originally posted by **[Jantonaitis](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6569104):***
> > The difference between us, is that I’m willing to say, Israel is part of the problem. It is. You are unwilling to examine the faults of Palestine, which make Israel’s faults seem like child’s play.
>
> You keep saying that, but i’ve yet to see a single instance where you’ve actually pointed out where you think Israel is the problem. You continually parrot pro-israel talking points, but nowhere do you criticize anything they do. Until that happens, you’ve no right to claim the upper hand in terms of fairness.
>
> Now in contrast, I actually DO attack palestinian interests when I think they’re full of shit. You don’t do the same for Israel. You bitch about how unfair it is to be defending israeli interests against high odds, but you don’t admit any real problems stopping peace on the Israeli side.
Israel is going about this incorrectly. Instead of allowing others to send aid to Palestine, Israel should buy and directly provide food and medical attention to the Palestinians. Israel should be the biggest supporter of those people, giving them everything they need, winning their hearts and minds.

> *Originally posted by **[MyTie](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6569159):***
>
> Israel is going about this incorrectly. Instead of allowing others to send aid to Palestine, Israel should buy and directly provide food and medical attention to the Palestinians. Israel should be the biggest supporter of those people, giving them everything they need, winning their hearts and minds.
You know what else they should do? Stop fighting. In that scenario, everybody wins.

> *Originally posted by **[tenco1](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6569199):***You know what else they should do? Stop fighting. In that scenario, everybody wins.
I suppose they should just drop the blockade as well. Why not let Palestinians roll tanks into Israel? Why don’t they save the Palestinians a lot of trouble, and dig their own graves?
It isn’t realistic to “stop fighting”. The Palestinians are militant attackers. Like it or not, that’s the reality. They could do stuff better, but just letting themselves be bombed by an aggressor would signal to all the hostile countries surrounding them that they are ready to surrender. It would be suicide. You are suggesting suicide.
> *Originally posted by **[CROWmmunism](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6569278):***
>
> I think that America should take down Israel because Israel is full of terrorists.
trolololololo

MyTie, how can you support Israel?
Tell me about how Israel, who kills babies, is good.
Israel murders Palestinian babies to help keep the jewish race pure.
They are also sending Palestinians to death camps.

> *Originally posted by **[CROWmmunism](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6569289):***
>
> MyTie, how can you support Israel?
>
> Tell me about how Israel, who kills babies, is good.
>
> Israel murders Palestinian babies to help keep the jewish race pure.
>
> They are also sending Palestinians to death camps.
[citation needed]

> *Originally posted by **[MyTie](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6569295):***
> > *Originally posted by **[CROWmmunism](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6569289):***
> >
> > MyTie, how can you support Israel?
> >
> > Tell me about how Israel, who kills babies, is good.
>
> [citation needed]
“At least nine children were killed in Gaza on Sunday – the bloodiest day so far – and TV reports showing horrific images of their burned and bloodied bodies have been fuelling Palestinian anger, adds our correspondent.” -BBC News
If you turn BBC news on right now you can watch people trying to pull children bodies from the debris. An entire family were killed due to a rocket that hit the wrong house too, IDF have confirmed the incident but shown no remorse for ‘accidental’ civilian casualties.
> *Originally posted by **[MyTie](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6569295):***
> > *Originally posted by **[CROWmmunism](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6569289):***
> >
> > Israel murders Palestinian babies to help keep the jewish race pure.
> >
> > They are also sending Palestinians to death camps.
>
> [citation needed]
These claims I agree could use some citation as I have seen nothing of this in all the news coverage I have read

Zionist apologists are probably some of the most deluded, despicable people on this planet.
You force an entire people into an already populated area based on a tenuous anthropological history.
This new nation, barely recognized by the international community except for a massive amount of political backdoor deals, then proceeds to act in an aggressive manner, not only towards the citizens of the country that it now occupies, but towards all of its neighbors.
Rinse and repeat for 30 years, then add ghettoization of the native population, oppression via blockades, continued passive aggression in the form of settlements of more and more land in what is supposed to be the native population’s territory.
After stewing the Palestinians in this pressure cooker for a few decades, things boil over and groups like the PLO and Hamas develop as an answer to the ongoing atrocity being perpetrated against them.
Then Israel claims self defense for every single minor attack, be it with rockets or chunks of brick (leftovers from the last IDF bombing campaign, incidentally).
Israeli leaders have openly commented about the pressure cooker treatment in the past, and the fact that they draw attacks in order to be able to retaliate with force.
The Knesset is run by far-right hawks, and the only group challenging that rule is _ANOTHER_ far right faction.
All the while, the US backs Israel without question.
You wonder why the Muslim and Arab communities hate the US, but you can’t look critically at the actions of our racist little bastard child in that theater.

> *Originally posted by **[MyTie](/forums/9/topics/310206?page=4#posts-6569286):***
>
> It isn’t realistic to “stop fighting”.
I know, I was intentionally making a shitty, willfully thinking argument.
> The Palestinians are militant attackers.
I was talking about both sides.

> You force an entire people into an area based on a “claim” which is itself based on a mythical religious text.
Well that isn’t quite fair. They have a legitimate claim to cultural and historical associations with the site. How much justification that is, is another matter. But Israel is something to the Jewish people/culture regardless of any religious overlay.

Fair enough. You’re right, there are anthropological ties to the region.
I guess my vision is clouded by the evangelical support for a Jewish state.
It really plays a role, and I think a lot of people don’t realize that, at least for the fundamentalist right and groups like the neoconservatives, a lot of foreign policy decisions are made, basically, “BECAUSE JESUS!!!”
It’s no way to run a government.
Original post edited to reflect a more accurate history.

Well, in that case…
While I completely agree about the problem of the christian zionists…that’s really not Israel’s fault. To my knowledge they didn’t so much as encourage it, as accept that it was happening and take the benefits from it.
And on a similar note…
> This new nation, barely recognized by the international community except for a massive amount of political backdoor deals, then proceeds to act in an aggressive manner, not only towards the citizens of the country that it now occupies, but towards all of its neighbors.
Well, I’m not sure what constitutes ‘barely’ but at least 25 different countries, including most of europe, recognized israel [prior](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Israel) to 1950. YES, they did make deals with the Czechs (for weapons) and the Jordanians (for land rights) but that was mainly to survive. Regardless of Israel’s checkered past (and I consider myself anti-Israel), it should be remembered that the Arabs did attack [first](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War) (seven countries, six armies) following the israeli declaration of independence…and they lost. According to Geneva, right of conquest makes Israel a legal state (though not the OT).
> This new nation, barely recognized by the international community except for a massive amount of political backdoor deals, then proceeds to act in an aggressive manner, not only towards the citizens of the country that it now occupies, but towards all of its neighbors.
It was 20 years later that the six-day war happened, not 30. This was, incidentally, the point at which the US took an interest in israel, having had an adversarial relationship with them before then (they disliked Israel’s close relationship with the soviets). More to the point, it was at this point that a de facto israeli lobby started in the US; prior to this, American Jews actively tried to dissociate themselves with israel, as they believed the US would see it as dual-loyalty (ie Catholics and the Vatican). (See Finkelstein’s The Holocaust Industry). The blockades are very recent. Also the PLO formed in [1964](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization) not so much because of israel, but because Nasser (who was sending guerillas into Israel throughout the 50s) was going over budget so he cancelled most of his aid to the palestinians, forcing them to make their own group. Hamas, on the other hand, was founded in [1987](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas); they were the first palestinian group to advocate islamism as the solution, as this was around the time of the first intifada when the PLO were doing fuck-all and the palestinians were down to throwing rocks at the ‘baddies’.
> Then Israel claims self defense for every single minor attack, be it with rockets or chunks of brick (leftovers from the last IDF bombing campaign, incidentally).
I’d say Israel has the right to claim self-defense for ANY attack committed against them; it’s the severity of the counter-response that matters. You don’t blow up a village because kids are throwing rocks at a tank, which is exactly the sort of disproportionality we’re seeing now (the qassim rockets cause few actual deaths, and the iron dome defenses disable around 90% of them, whereas Israel uses the same sort of tactics the US does on pakistan, ‘targeted’ attacks which nevertheless kill half a dozen per shot)
> Israeli leaders have openly commented about the pressure cooker treatment in the past, and the fact that they draw attacks in order to be able to retaliate with force.
Actually those comments have been largely from dissatisfied members of israeli intelligence who are annoyed with israel’s idiotic approach to problem-solving, rather than, as you imply, smug israeli bureaucrats pleased at deliberate incitement of conflict, like with Iran (btw this is the Fox News of Israeli journalism; mytie pay close [attention](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161183#.UKsPu-Q0WSo)). I’ve never heard Netanyahu or Liebermann (the racist, fucktard foreign minister) say that they routinely start wars for the hell of it.
> The Knesset is run by far-right hawks, and the only group challenging that rule is ANOTHER far right faction.
Although Likud is indeed the major party of israel, and has been for many years, and is indeed right wing (though still not as rightist as the reps), their opposition has usually been either [Labour](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Labor_Party) or [Kadima](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadima), neither of which is right-wing. Kadima, in point of fact, probably more liberal than any other major party in North America (yes, including Canada). They’re best associated with J-Street:“[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J\_Street”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_Street”), a leftist American Jew advocacy group that is often criticized as anti-israel because of its controversial positions, like negotiating with Hamas or pissing on the ADL and other ACTUAL Israeli hawk lobby groups. The Knesset also has palestinian MKs [currently serving](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_members_of_the_Knesset). That’s 17 out of 120, not great, but given the diversity of parties (perhaps an EU’er could help me out) not terrible for a PR electoral system. Oh yeah, they have one of the most screwed PR systems in the world, namely because it takes relatively few votes to gain a seat.
> All the while, the US backs Israel without question.
As mentioned, the US came to the Israel celebrations late; it’s Britain that Israel owes the most to (due to inactivity over the dissolution of the empire, really), second would be germany over the massive post-nazi payments, third probably South Africa (I await the erroneous apartheid comparisons). The US may be the most sensationalized ally, but that’s only because the US frequently declares itself such. in actual fact, although they give a shit-ton of money to israel, they also frequently hold them back and/or criticize them (which is why both Olmert and Netanyahu hated dealing with the US).
> You wonder why the Muslim and Arab communities hate the US, but you can’t look critically at the actions of our racist little bastard child in that theater.
I would suggest that we might look **too** critically on our racist bastard brother, honestly.
Yes, they are racists, but really not so much, compared to us. They’re basically dying-gasp colonials, who started just as the rest of the colonials died out. And to be fair, they don’t see themselves as colonials. It’s part of the founding mythos that Israel has to have more than the land they have, that they have to extend all the way to the borders that the kingdom of judea had. They’ll never reach it, of course, and since the ‘73 war i don’t think any israeli has seriously thought about it, but it makes sense to me that the idea of expansion over an inferior people has never really left their minds.
Nor has manifest destiny among americans, though we’re in more danger of conquering you than the other way around.
Norm Finelstein has said this, and i agree, that criticizing israel is [too easy](http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/focus-u-s-a/norman-finkelstein-bids-farewell-to-israel-bashing-1.422684). Even six years ago, as a university student in politics, i didn’t see much israel activity, pro or anti. it’s only been recently that it’s loomed over everyone, what with second lebabon war and castlead and flotilla, and now second gaza. There’s plenty of anti-israelis, plenty of israeli apartheid’ers (though i personally disagree with the term), that like finkelstein, i see the pro-israelis as losing the war of propaganda, not winning. this forum isn’t the only one in contest, by a long shot.
@mytie: Israel already provides electricity to the OT and a huge part of the flotilla scandal is thrat they’re trying to provide palestine with food and aid. your argument against sounds like a nothing argument, something that an apologist would say to prove he isn’t biased. rather talk about the israeli bulldozing on palestinian houses (and mizrahi jews) or the clearly illegal settlements on OT land. Those are things israel could clearly avoid and clearly does nothing about. There are no excuses for them – they’re wrong, and they’ll be punished accordingly when this is finally resolved.

Well, that’s about as thorough a history as we’re likely to get.
Nice, Jan.
Sorry for the non-specifics; was just patching together a rough edit, and haven’t really read up on it in a while, so excuse my inaccuracies. :)
As for the idea that Israel can claim self defense, I completely agree, but you correctly point out that there’s a ridiculously disproportionate level of response from the IDF.
Further, I think the self defense argument has become almost a joke over the decades.
Sure, back when hostilities first kicked off, it was perfectly valid.
But as Israel ha grown into what is arguably the strongest military state involved directly in these conflicts (especially where Palestine is concerned), I’d say that argument has lost most of its punch.
I also think that, at a certain point, you have to consider that Palestinian action under Israeli rule is a form of self defense.