“There’s a larger debate here if Snowden did release these documents and we find out it does serves a purpose. But at the same time he’s still hiding in Russia. I mean, it would be a different story if he came back, and made his case, and faced the music,” Rieckhoff said.

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“That is total bulls—-!” Greenwald interjected.

“I don’t think that’s total bulls—- at all,” the IAVA founder repeated, before the two continued a tense debate on the issue.

Greenwald questioned why Snowden would want to come back to the U.S., adding it’s a “country that has systematic attack on whistleblowers?” He pushed back against Rieckhoff saying that Snowden is “hiding” in Russia, saying that the NSA leaker “has asylum.”

Reickhoff also argued that Snowden has become the issue, rather than U.S. surveillance.

“His being in Russia doesn’t stop you talking about the NSA,” Greenwald said.

Rieckhoff responded, “But it doesn’t help American interests either.”

Maher said that many people are split on whether Snowden should have released the documents and that there are some who said it put American lives at risk. However, Greenwald pushed back against criticism that Snowden’s leak has helped terrorists or enemies of the U.S., saying the same was said of Pentagon Papers releaser Daniel Ellsberg and it’s just “propaganda.”

The journalist said people who work in the national security community “even if they’re well intentioned, hate transparency, they want to work in secrecy.”

Reickoff asked Greenwald how he could know if the leaks didn’t cost American lives, which Greenwald rebutted by saying they received tens of thousands of documents and only a small percentage were released. Greenwald added that he instead understands criticism from groups like Wikileaks who say not enough of the documents have been released.

Rieckhoff said he will defend whistleblowers, who he praised for unearthing the VA scandal, but said “there’s an important role for [whistleblowers] but they have responsibility, too.”

“So we’re just supposed to take the government’s word?” Greenwald asked.

To which Rieckhoff said, “Are we’re supposed to take your word?”

“I think you should have evidence for accusations that you want to make,” Greenwald said, before Maher jumped in to change topics.