MP-10???

You all need to one-touch yourselves and relax. This Prime looks dope, with all the visual corrections one would want for the MP-01. And it'll probably be a hell of a lot more stable. I'm wearing my Transformers undies in anticipation of this release. Thankfully, it won't Swiss-Army-Knife-transform into four things like Rodimus, so there's a chance that it won't suck like Rodimus.

the more I look at it, the more stoked I am about it. It looks damn good. and the truck-mode is soooo much better than the MP-01. I love the MP01, but I always thought the truck mode took a hit--even as good as it was. I dunno, something about the panels and stuff. This is just amazing all around from what I see in the pics. I do wish that they could've worked out the arms a little shorter, but I'm sure in-person it'll look fine.

At BBTS, I saw that MP09 will be reissued. As much as I like HR, I'm not really into this design as much as I thought i'd be. It would be great if they just re-designed it IMO. It looks too foldy and funky in the upper body. the legs were designed nicely, but the groin panel looks too weird. oh well.

I wouldn't discount Marvin's commentary too quickly. Who'd have ever imagined that "fan-produced" toys would have evolved to the level they have, in some cases competing head-to-head with the source products, and at times producing a higher-demand item.

Also, the accessory market likewise shows wide-scale profit potential the likes of which I would have scoffed at only a few years ago. There are other characters they could have continued MP with (and likely are working on...such as Soundwave and Galvatron) but there's such a palpable buzz around all things Optimus/Ultra Magnus in the secondary market that I'm sure they felt the demand was there and decided to strike while the iron was still hot, or at least warm.

I'm sure they'll also release a Magnus version, and who knows if they'll produce the combining armor trailer themselves this time? There's definitely a strong market out there for it, and other than painting Optimus white, much less arduous to engineer.

I don't doubt that they'd have gotten around to an "improved" Optimus eventually (such as SOC does with a Mazinger seasonally), but the expandability/alteration of the "Optimus" trailer is farily unique among characters, and likely has greater profit potential in the current collector's environment. And Takara is in the business to make money first and foremost.

Marvin Lee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think everyone is missing a bigger point. This
> to me is a re-do like Batman Begins Vs. the ass
> raping the Batman franchise had turned into with
> Batman & Robin and Batman forever. Sometimes you
> just have to start over. Seeing this further backs
> up what was originally thought:
>
> MP-01 was suppose to be a one off. A tribute to
> all us 30-40+ nerds. Then Takara went "Hell people
> are ponying up for this expensive line, but if we
> had known that we wouldn't have made Prime THAT
> big." and Hell I guess we GOTTA make Megatron the
> same size!" Remember how we got bitched at at
> making a Deluxe Galvatron?" This figure just puts
> things in scale perspective.
>
> That would have put Grimlock at about 15"
> though...sweet.
>
> BUT
>
> More importantly this was a HUGE kick in the nuts
> for all the off brand fan makers who sucked at the
> tit at Takara.
>
> Other people made a trailer--- and made money on
> us last time sooooo "We'll make a trailer this
> time too and cut them out!
>
> Other people's trailers wasn't an empty shell like
> the one we put out---- this time we'll make one
> with all the stuff in it this time.
>
> Other people are making Spike and Sparkplug
> figures. We'll throw that in this time too!
>
> Takara to the other fandom off companies: "HOW YOU
> LIKE ME NOW BITCHES!!!!"
>
> The sad part is IF those other companies HADN'T
> have made all the stuff then this MP-10 wouldn't
> have happened. Is there anyone who doubts this.
>
> I still like my MP-01 best because I have the tall
> smokestacks of the Japanese version, the black gun
> of the American release and the very expensive
> trailer that has the full compliment of gear like
> that one guy created in Japan. I'm probably
> sitting on a $500.00 figure. I'll get this Prime
> too after the newness wears off just so that I
> don't have to play with the big one as much and
> risk damaging it. Now I don't know if I'll pop for
> the old MP-05 Megatron and the large MP-05+
> accessory kit or wait for a MP-11 with a (Let us
> prey) a finally good looking non-fiddly, crack
> face looking Megatron.

I don't get this line of thinking. So Takara should include less accessories to allow the fan companies to release their own? Takara shouldn't come out with an Arcee or Springer classic because it would be a "kick in the nuts" to the fan companies who made their own?

I think marvin lee is crazy for thinking this has anything to do with fan companies.

I know I write with a type of ranting flare but realistically you can't believe that Hasbro/Takara haven't noticed. A perfect example is Fansproject:

When FP created the Cliffjumper head upgrade they basically showed Hasbro/Takare: "Look you could and should have done better." and by what people were paying for just that head upgrade it shows that people are willing to speak with their dollars.BUT I think that H/T thought that this head set was designed for a bunch of TF zelots and thus Fans Project wasn't rally taking seriously.

Then FP scaled up and created the armor upgrade for basically a liquid paper version of OP making a realistic Ultra Magnus. This wasn't just a fan boy project. This was a high quality, well engineered set that went beyond just an accessory gun upgrade. They were sold and the market gobbled them up. So much so that FP NOT Hasbro fueled the secondary market as to the value of the Ultra Magnus/Skywarp Target exclusive set. (I had just bought the set for the Skywarp and the liquid paper Prime would have been thrown in the closet never to see the light of day.) FP made the white Prime more valuable! The armor set became so valuable that FP was getting bootlegged just to keep up with the demand. The bootleggers FORCED FP to make a new run of the Ultra Magnus armor as well as an upgrade to that.

Then FP dove all the way in and created the Warbot where EVERYONE knew that it was Springer. Hasbro created their own Springer being just a re-color of an earlier figure as a two part set with ratbat another re-color. Those clogged up the shelves... why? Because FP again said "Hasbro/Takara "You could have done better and the people have spoken with their wallets... TO US!

When FP re-created two of the main parts to Bruticus they said "See you could have done better and FP drove the price of the Hasbro Target exclusive Bruticus. If they hadn't created such good figures those sets would still be $29.99 at Target and probably much LESS on Ebay. IT is FP that makes the figure command $200.00!

Although Hotrod/Roddimus prices were climbing because it was an older series 1. figure The protector set from FP drove the prices WAY up.

IGear or whoever is reallying making the toys has IMPROVED the seeker planes to intergrate the kibble better thanTakara nad Hasbro as well as add the forearm communicators like on Mp-01. They improved on the engineering (The QC we will know in a few months.)

All of these companies have gome well past garage fan-boy kits to full on production companies on the history of Takara and Hasbro and all I have to say is more power to them! Because I know if they weren't out there doing their stuff the people at the wheel of Hasbro/Takara wouldn't have stepped up their game and ALL we'd have is a bunch of crappy designed TF's and a boat load of re-colors. Takara/Hasbro is AT LEAST giving old molds different heads and assoceries now (Sideswipe/Sunstreaker and Drift/Blurr for example) Also just look at the level of engenering that Takara has now had to step up to the plate to just be able to compete with the FP's of the world. Compare Classics Bumblee Bee with Sergent Kup! They are like night and day in engeneering! you could make the point that over the last few years there have been an advancement in technology which is true BUT when you are the only game in town why do the added effort? Because if you don't an upstart company like FP will create another Warbot/Springer and sell out and the crap you created like the Springer/Ratbat re-color will sit on the shelf collecting dust.

To get back to my original statement I am sure that if it weren't for companies like FP that MP-10 would be just a scaled down figure of their original mold and there wouldn't be a trailer at all but now Takare/Hasbro know that people are on their ass and they can't put out any old crap. That "I can out engeneer you" spirit goes for the accessory one off companies too! Look at how Sanjeev's Unicron stand blew away the origional fanboy companies stand! And comparred to the toy companies and even some of the cottage garage kit makers Sanjeev out did the old guard with limited resources and withing just a few months.

So knowing this i think that Hasbro went "Instead of all these other people sucking at out tits we'll make all the stuff the fandboys will want" "Ie: "How you like me know Bitches!"

I don't know, dude, this whole bit smacks of correlation not causation. You're saying that because current TF Classics figs are better than the early waves of TF Classics figs, that means HasTak is responding to competition from these third-party makers.

There is no real competition between these third-party makers and HasTak. They've got different audiences (that do overlap, yes, but HasTak is after a much bigger pie and much younger crowd).

If you look at modern Joe figs and compare the earliest 25th figures with the ones being put out now, you'll see the same thing as what you've mentioned about the TFs. It's ree-dunk-cue-lous how much better the latest figures are. With each passing year on a specific line, the toymakers are going to get better at designing/engineering the toys.

As to the fact that were it not for third-party makers, Takaratomy would have simply resized MP-01...when's the last time in recent memory any toy company simply shrank one of its toys while doubling the price? You think that even Takaratomy would have the balls to charge $250 for a smaller Prime that doesn't come with a trailer, at least? It's just milking the most popular character of the franchise, as Bandai does all the time.

Yeah I'm sure development on MP-10 started quite a while ago and it was a given, I could see that the popularity of third party items like the iGear Prime may have pushed the process faster or the release date get changed to something earlier since it's pretty rare for Takara to release two completely new MP's with-in a relatively short period of time. It could also be because Takara wants to cash in on the upcoming movie, either way I doubt Takara will admit to anything if there is anything to admit too and third party companies are probably just gonna keep their mouths shut and not say anything for fear of poking a sleeping bear.

I don't think they're looking over their shoulder either, but I DO think that they have to have noticed what it is that the fans are enjoying about these toys. There's no way they couldn't. That's free information right there, and perhaps even a little free R&D.

On a side note, if anyone has researched this topic, how many units of an established/trademarked/copyrighted character can one home-produce a version of and sell before they infringe on the rights of the copyright owner?

I remember running into a guy at a toy show years ago who had build a garage kit version of a robot character from an 80's movie, and represented that so long as he didn't produce or sell more than 500 pieces, he fell outside the jurisdiction of actionable copyright infringement.

I ask for two reasons: one is that I am purely curious;but secondly,it makes me recoil a bit when I hear more and more "f"-Hasbro/Takara talk in conversations about secondary market products. If Hasbro sees these small companies as only enhancing their products, creating buzz over their lines, or even increasing demand for thier products, then it remains in a positive context with zero motivation for them to take action regarding potential infringement issues (even if they aren't bootlegging an existing toy, the characters themselves are creative property).

My concern is that if the consensus opinion of the on-line collector community, regardless of how small a percentage the "rabid fan" community is, becomes overwhelmingly negative and critical, that may be enough to spur action which ends up stifling the progress and enjoyment that that has come through the explosion and quality of these secondary market products. Even if there isn't a clear case of infringement, Hasbro/Takara have paid attorneys on staff, and the expense of defending litigation in this area would not be cheap and likely could spell the end of a small production house.

Supersentai Wrote:
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> On a side note, if anyone has researched this
> topic, how many units of an
> established/trademarked/copyrighted character can
> one home-produce a version of and sell before they
> infringe on the rights of the copyright owner?
>
> I remember running into a guy at a toy show years
> ago who had build a garage kit version of a robot
> character from an 80's movie, and represented that
> so long as he didn't produce or sell more than 500
> pieces, he fell outside the jurisdiction of
> actionable copyright infringement.
>
...

That is complete bullshit and not at all how copyright works. If you sell ANY you are violating the copyright. The copyright holder may or may not pursue you, but it's still a violation. There's no number limit. Go to your library and read the copyright law if you want to. I assume it's also online.

It's not that I couldn't research it, was just wondering if anyone had any practical experience with this already. The "500" number guy's argument didn't make sense to me either, especially as some properties may have only a small cult following that 500 pieces would satisfy national demand.

I'm sure the issue regarding Transformer toys is further complicated as the original license holders (Diaclone and Microman for the designs, Toei/Claster for the character design/interpretation) reside in another country, bringing international law into the mix. It's not like going down to city hall and finding out how tall of a fence I can build around my yard.

As far as the consensus goes for those of you obviously in the know, if I build a clearly recognizable kit-bash of Optimus Prime, or paint a portrait of Wheelie on black velvet canvas, either way the sale of such an item is in violation of a copyright, correct?

Pretty much any sale of a copyrighted character is against IP law, it's just a matter if the rights holder feels like slamming you or is willing to let it go. For the most part pieces like art is underneath most companies awareness and they understand that this is a fan and thus a potential customer display of affection for their franchise. On the other hand if you make a painting of say Mickey Mouse and sell a thousand you can bet you'll be getting a notice from Disney if they ever found out.

What confuses me, and I've brought this up before is how copyright laws work on an international stage. How does a Hasbro or Takara go after a company based in Hong Kong? What's stopping say iGear or Fansproject from just closing up shop and just re-open under a different name? Personally I think for the most part if a 3rd party item enhances a current toy line and doesn't steal sales companies like Takara will just live with it, but when it competes against a legitimate product that say Takara wants to sell is when things get dicey but I'm only guessing.

If Takara or Hasbro decided to go against FP or one of these other companies for copyright infringement, I can see them ceasing to create toys that replicate TF characters. However, there's nothing stopping them from creating their own line of toys that transform. It could come to that, but so far it seems like Hasbro's being cool about it. Maybe they do see it as enhancing the line. It certainly has created a rabid niche that keeps certain of us buying toys on the off chance that someone will make an add-on set...

Hasbro has been cool about all of this as far as I can tell, just hoping nothing gives them cause to alter their stance. I mean, come on, it's not like kids are lining up in front of Toys R Us on Saturday mornings looking for a "Springer" toy.

Given the going price for Cliffjumpers, Magnusus and Brutici, they could likely churn out another run on some of their recent releases and sell them sucessfully online.

Read up on the Berne Convention, it's an international agreement where many countries agreed to follow the same basic copyright laws and help each other pursue violators. US and Japan are both members.

It could also be just a numbers thing, true China hasn't been the most upstanding member but with over 1.3 billion people living there it must be near impossible to keep all bootlegging from high-end items to low-end t-shirts from happening.

I agree that any reproduction is a violation of copyright laws. I suspect that the 500 number had to do with the amount of figures that could be produced from a mold before the mold becomes too damaged and/or how many you had to produce to get your initial cost back and make a profit.

I honestly DON'T believe that if it weren't for companies like FP that MP-10 wouldn't have come with extra stuff OR be designed so well. Greed and competition is what drives the market and it's technological progress. So I applaud the small companies that do what they do because I think that they keep the big boys feet to the fire. Most of the companies have gone beyond bootlegging and for me if they make a major change or advancement then they no longer become bootleggers (Copyright infringement-ors yes but not bootleggers.) Make a figure bigger, smaller, or re-tooled like the cone-head planes and you're good in my book.

What I don't understand is why doesn't Takara/Hasbro just buy out these companies while still letting them do nich- products on their own? (Car companies have been doing this for years.)This is the best of both worlds, no more copyright problems and unique odd characters can be made for the smaller collector market.

The 500 number sounds more like some arbitrary number the company whose IP he was using came up with for fan products. Typically, the molds used for resin kits made in someone's garage can't be used for more than 15-50 runs (depending on the quality of the mold) before the mold is in such a bad state that the resulting kit is effectively crap.

With most companies, you can get away with reproducing their IP as follows:
- Stay out of their sight.
- Small runs, typically 50-100 items.

Note that IP in one category of products does not automatically apply to all categories of products. You can indeed copyright the likeness of a character, but this has its limits, which leads to a nice loophole that gets used very often: Change the looks of the product a little bit, and it's another product not based on the original IP. Not naming it exactly like the original also helps.

As long as your product then doesn't meet huge success you should be safe. Heck, even if it does meet huge success you might be safe. Just look at similar IP within the same field: Isn't Daffy Duck essentially a black Donald Duck with some changes?

So I would be perfectly safe to produce a SuperDeformed version of a popular car (different shape = different IP), as long as I don't name it exactly the same way (different name = different IP).

Unfortunately, some companies have loads and loads of lawyers and effectively rape IP law for their own gains. You don't go down on IP breach, you go down on the lawsuit costs. Inversely, the same applies to the companies: lawsuits cost money, and sometimes prosecution is just not worth it.

I guess the TF repro companies are safe as long as they don't sell their items through an official importer in the US. Hasbro could technically block resellers from selling the items in the countries where Hasbro is implemented, if those countries' justice system actually agrees with Hasbro that it is IP infringement. And that's the other loophole: Because countries have varying copyright laws, a company would have to sue an infringer in each separate country...

Marvin Lee Wrote:
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> I honestly DON'T believe that if it weren't for
> companies like FP that MP-10 wouldn't have come
> with extra stuff OR be designed so well.

Eh. Most of the stuff MP-10 does is just a reaction to the disappointing aspects of MP-01. As far as accessories go, all this stuff like Roller came with THS-02 Convoy so it's not a huge stretch for this stuff to work their way into MP-10.

Unless we hear it from the horse's mouth, it's all obviously speculation as to the impact of the secondary market. I do not doubt for a moment that someone from Hasbro/Takara is reading even this thread in an effort to measure the pulse of the "community". Most companies have become savy enough to understand the value these cluster communites have as a way of gauging opinion and product feedback (focus groups cost money, and this is FREE!).

If you see an Ultra Magnus armour set for pre-order before the end of the year, then I feel it's safe to interpret that as a sign that there has been some influence.

The other day, I checked out peaugh's youtube reviews posted by Andrew of the iGear non-Masterpiece coneheads...and it got me thinking about these toys...

Does anyone consider the "Masterpiece" toys cheats?

What I've noticed is that in attempting to make the two modes match the animation models, the toys have to turn themselves inside out to reveal almost two complete sets of independent bits to form each mode. For example, the original grill on the front of Prime's truck mode became his abdomen on the toy (and that was the *intent* of the animation model, too). But because the animation deviated from the toy so much, the Masterpiece Prime has two separate grills--one for each mode.

Or with the conehead seekers, the nosecone of the aircraft became the pointy head of the robot in the toy and cartoon. But to get the robot mode to look "right", there's actually a separate cone head hidden in the belly of the aircraft that's revealed when transforming.

I dunno...this feels like a cheat to me.

I guess part of why I like Transformers is that *actual* vehicle bits form the anatomy of a somewhat-humanoid robot. Sure, the engineering involved in making ONE contiguous mechanism that completely hides one set of exterior panels at a time is brilliant! But it almost seems like a contrivance to me...weirdly, I think I prefer the charm of the non-Masterpiece design philosophy.

Like, if the basic Classics transformation sequences were scaled up to Masterpiece-quality/detail, I think that would probably be ideal to me. Hell, I even prefer a few of the movie designs.

[I'm not sure if Masterpiece Megatron or Grimlock suffer from this at all. Maybe Prime is the worst offender. And I think Hot Rod/Rodimus gets a pass obviously because the *intent* is to depict two designs.]

Anyway, the MP-10 is looking fucking GORGEOUS, so it's gonna be tough not to throw down...but this whole "cheat" thing is still nagging at my brain.

I can forgive something like the OP's grill for example, but when they make the vehicle modes pretty much an outfit that covers up the robot's humanoid design (2 separate parts), I feel a bit cheated too and it's a bummer for me. Tranformers Animated did this a bit--some designs were better than others--but you could forgive it sometimes because the cartoon was so stylized anyway--and they did a damn good job in light of that. Classics had the right idea.

for the MP OP and future releases, I would prefer to see more of what you were talking about in regards to the Classics approach.

Powermaster Prime, which was one of my favorite childhood toys, thrived on this cheat. But yeah, it was a bit of a letdown--just a little, though.

The idea of "DX-ing" the Classics designs--keeping the simplicity while sharpening the lines and detail and upping the size and infusing the toys with metal, is something that would be ideal. United Jazz is practically perfect in execution (cue pic)--it's just too bad it's at a cheapie plastic scale.

Yeah, I think Animated can get a pass because the style isn't quite as "hard scifi".

Anyway, I'm on the fence about iGear's not-Dirge...but then I pick up the Classics one and the MP just seems dumb to me.

But, yeah, the cheapiness of a lot of the smaller modern TFs is a bummer. Did you know that the Classics seekers are the same size as the original G1 toys? You wouldn't have been able to convince me of that had I not simply put them side by side. But the matte "monotone" plastic, lack of diecast, lack of chrome, etc., makes them feel smaller. Oh, and the Japanese versions throwing chrome on the null rays...plain dumb.

gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Takaratomy hates you almost as much as Bandai,
> though.

Nah, I think they just have their heads up their own asses. Bandai...now THAT'S hate. :P

to be fair, Sanjeev, the MP jets were never intended to be converted into the Coneheads. So that's more iGear's folly of trying to adapt a design to do something outside the original idea. Other than that the MP jets are free of cheats. Although I'm not sure if you'd consider having things like the wing flaps folding down achieve that animated look or the having the intakes cant forward to do the same thing to be a cheat.

"The funny thing about Powermaster Optimus Prime is that Ginrai, his Japanese relative, actually depicts the two chests thing IN THE CARTOON. He still has a separate set of windows on his back!"

Masterforce was pretty awesome that way. I mean what other show could make the Pretenders look cool?

Also, Sanjeev, it absolutely kills me that you have not liberated Grimlock from the package, given that it's the one Masterpiece-Modern-Anything released by any company that does exactly what you're freaking asking for. I mean, the transformation is almost step-by-step the same as the original's, with the exception of a couple of extra steps in the feet.

You're practically inviting Mr. Crush and me to kidnap you and throw you in a cage with the damn toy until you agree to open it.

>The funny thing about Powermaster Optimus Prime is that Ginrai, his Japanese
>relative, actually depicts the two chests thing IN THE CARTOON. He still has a
>separate set of windows on his back!

VF5SS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> to be fair, Sanjeev, the MP jets were never
> intended to be converted into the Coneheads.

Very true.

> Although I'm not sure if you'd consider...
> having the intakes cant
> forward to do the same thing to be a cheat.

Do you mean the chest intakes? I'm kinda on the fence about those. I guess they aren't really on the undercarriage of the aircraft as drawn in the cartoon...so I guess that's technically not a cheat. Still sits oddly with me, though.

> Masterforce was pretty awesome that way. I mean
> what other show could make the Pretenders look
> cool?

I still need to see Masterforce JUST for the Pretenders!

...

Hahaha...Chieh, I never said you guys were wrong! I just haven't gotten around to it yet. Hey, just be glad I haven't sold it in my on-going house-cleaning frenzy.

gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're practically inviting Mr. Crush and me to
> kidnap you and throw you in a cage with the damn
> toy until you agree to open it.

Sanjeev, open that goddamn MP Grimlock. Do it already. It's what you want. And if it isn't, you can send it to me. Because I will want it for you. So, so, very badly.

Also, I don't mind cheaty parts. In fact, I like them on some designs. It's like biting into a Reese Peanut Butter Cup and finding another one inside of it. Because, sometimes, engineering a peanut butter cup that is also simultaneously inside itself is too goddamn complicated.

I love the Masterforce cartoon, naturally, but I also feel like it doesn't really get going until Ginrai gets introduced. Still, the Pretenders are fun, especially the Destron/Decepticons. Metalhawk is kind of a douche, but I love scenes like Lander abandoning his date to go be a robot superhero.

Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But, yeah, the cheapiness of a lot of the smaller
> modern TFs is a bummer. Did you know that the
> Classics seekers are the same size as the original
> G1 toys?
>
Yup. I remember a few years ago seeing comparison pics of the Classics and G1 and being really surprised.

> You wouldn't have been able to convince
> me of that had I not simply put them side by side.
> But the matte "monotone" plastic, lack of diecast,
> lack of chrome, etc., makes them feel smaller.

Exactly. Not to mention our hands are now bigger.

But yeah, I just picked up Device Label Blaster, which, despite its rather odd alt mode, is pretty kick-ass, and when you compare it to United Jazz, you just feel the difference. You can't tell in pictures, but the Blaster skirts closer to the vintage toys (the small amount of metal helps, along with the more complex build and sharply designed parts). Despite how good Jazz looks, it feels like something you'd rip out of a blister pack. Not that I'm complaining much about that, though...it's great for what it is.