AK54r vs Saiga 308

Now that CF has dropped the price of the AK54r, I see these two at a dead heat. There are essentially no price advantages to either, but the only difference I see is the magazine limitation of the AK54r (maybe csspecs can fix this) and the more expensive ammo of the 308. Comments welcome on the pro and cons of either one. thanks

Now that CF has dropped the price of the AK54r, I see these two at a dead heat. There are essentially no price advantages to either, but the only difference I see is the magazine limitation of the AK54r (maybe csspecs can fix this) and the more expensive ammo of the 308. Comments welcome on the pro and cons of either one. thanks

It may seem a dead heat in theory, but a little range time might dispel the notion. I suspect the overheating issue with the PSL will also occur in the AK54r. If so, it is a gun you really can't rapid fire without issues. The barrel of the Saiga 308 is much thicker, giving it a greater sustained fire capability. And the larger magazine capacities allow it to perform roles the PSL/AK54r can't do (at least not well). The only advantage of the AK54r is the ammo price savings.

These 54r ak's really look like fun, and have caught my eye as well. But I have a feeling Jim's theory is probably correct.
I have a s308 and @100 yards I can toss a dozen brown bears soft points in a torso in seconds and its still not to hot to handle.
From the slow-mo vid of a PSL firing, that spaghetti string barrel looked overworked and just to sloppy, I doubt the 308 flexes as bad.

Don't you never turn your back on a fuckin clown when he's talkin to yuh!

To bad the AES-10B couldn't be modded too run EITHER the 308 or 54R.. That may have enough bbl thickness to do the job.

Maybe mate up a MN 91/30 barrel to the PSL..??

Just tossing ideas..

Albert

Albert, how would you make a rifle run both 7.62x54mmR which has a bullet diameter of 0.312 inch and a rim and 7.62x51mm which has a bullet diameter of 0.308 inch and no rim... How would you propose doing that, regardless of how thick the barrel is?

What is your plan for overcoming the difference in the overall length of 71.12 mm for the NATO round vs 77.16 mm for the Soviet? How will you use the thickness of the barrel to deal with that pesky 6.04mm?

What about the shoulder angle variation of 1.5 degrees, how will this be addressed by barrel thickness? How do you propose the chamber of the modified rifle be cut?

Regarding the idea of affixing a 45 to over 100 year old Mosin Nagant 91/30 barrel onto your PSL, given a life of corrosive ammo and the very best TLC that could be expected of a Russian Peasant Conscript, what level of accuracy would you expect from this creation? Perhaps 1 to 1.5 MOA?I am anxious to hear more on your ideas for building rifles!

Edited by Azrial, 12 September 2010 - 04:54 AM.

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IMPORTANT: READ CAREFULLY – Azrial's comments are provided solely to reform, chastise, or replace existing opinions. Inasmuch, Azrial holds no title to said Azrial comments IF Azrial comments are used only for non-profitable thought enhancement. Any other use of Azrial comments are strictly forbidden without the expressed written permission of Azrial. In so obtaining said permission you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions set forth in binding contract. If you do not agree to these terms and conditions, you may not copy, repeat, modify, think, or in any way use Azrial comments. Once contracted, unless you acquired the Azrial comments on external media, you may make a single copy of the Azrial comments solely for archival purposes or rethinking of the Azrial comments in the same context that the Azrial comments were previously expressed. Azrial retains all right, title, and interest in and to the Azrial comments. All rights not granted are reserved by Azrial. THE LIMITED WARRANTY (IF ANY) INCLUDED IN THE APPLICABLE AZRIAL COMMENTS APPLIES TO THE AZRIAL COMMENTS PROVIDED THE AZRIAL COMMENTS HAVE BEEN LICENSED BY YOU WITHIN THE TERM OF THE LIMITED WARRANTY OF THE APPLICABLE AZRIAL COMMENTS IF APPLICABLE.

No answer?
Aren't you guy that wants me to believe that he built a 1.5 MOA Saiga .308!

Like I told you the other day, you have no idea in hell what you are talking about when it comes to rifles.

Edited by Azrial, 13 September 2010 - 01:20 AM.

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IMPORTANT: READ CAREFULLY – Azrial's comments are provided solely to reform, chastise, or replace existing opinions. Inasmuch, Azrial holds no title to said Azrial comments IF Azrial comments are used only for non-profitable thought enhancement. Any other use of Azrial comments are strictly forbidden without the expressed written permission of Azrial. In so obtaining said permission you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions set forth in binding contract. If you do not agree to these terms and conditions, you may not copy, repeat, modify, think, or in any way use Azrial comments. Once contracted, unless you acquired the Azrial comments on external media, you may make a single copy of the Azrial comments solely for archival purposes or rethinking of the Azrial comments in the same context that the Azrial comments were previously expressed. Azrial retains all right, title, and interest in and to the Azrial comments. All rights not granted are reserved by Azrial. THE LIMITED WARRANTY (IF ANY) INCLUDED IN THE APPLICABLE AZRIAL COMMENTS APPLIES TO THE AZRIAL COMMENTS PROVIDED THE AZRIAL COMMENTS HAVE BEEN LICENSED BY YOU WITHIN THE TERM OF THE LIMITED WARRANTY OF THE APPLICABLE AZRIAL COMMENTS IF APPLICABLE.

Can you guys stop the pissing contest already?? Most people are reading these threads to actually get some information out of them not listen to your bickering. I know I'm a newbie here and I dont mean any dissrespect to either of you i'm just saying, you guys are both grown adults who dissagree. Cant you agree to dissagree?

To bad the AES-10B couldn't be modded too run EITHER the 308 or 54R.. That may have enough bbl thickness to do the job.

Maybe mate up a MN 91/30 barrel to the PSL..??

Just tossing ideas..

Albert

Albert, how would you make a rifle run both 7.62x54mmR which has a bullet diameter of 0.312 inch and a rim and 7.62x51mm which has a bullet diameter of 0.308 inch and no rim... How would you propose doing that, regardless of how thick the barrel is?

What is your plan for overcoming the difference in the overall length of 71.12 mm for the NATO round vs 77.16 mm for the Soviet? How will you use the thickness of the barrel to deal with that pesky 6.04mm?

What about the shoulder angle variation of 1.5 degrees, how will this be addressed by barrel thickness? How do you propose the chamber of the modified rifle be cut?

Regarding the idea of affixing a 45 to over 100 year old Mosin Nagant 91/30 barrel onto your PSL, given a life of corrosive ammo and the very best TLC that could be expected of a Russian Peasant Conscript, what level of accuracy would you expect from this creation? Perhaps 1 to 1.5 MOA?I am anxious to hear more on your ideas for building rifles!

He used the disjunctive.

EITHER

A. 308OR B. 7.62 x 54

Meaning one or the other.

Not the conjunctive.

308 AND 7.62 x 54 (implying both simultaneously).

P.S. My 308 v. 21 shoots 1.5" 4 shot groups consistently with handloads at 100 yards. That's probably as good as I can shoot. All I did was add a good mount and scope, and I don't shoot the barrel until it's red hot.

No, I will not be showing up to a group shoot in the Eastern U.S. with a bunch of douchebags to prove it.

Yes, this is my first post. Azrial, your words just inspire me to comment.

Azrial, No answer from me. I was 'tossing ideas' for guys with lathes and such.

There would be no practical way to accomplish what you described for even a fraction of the cost of two separate rifles. These military cartages have tittle in common except name, which is a misnomer. I would think if you had actually ever seen a 7.62x54R you would know this. What bolt modification would you propose to allow the bolt to work interchangeably with both a rimmed and non-rimmed case?

The 7.62x54R is an interesting old caliber but much of the ammo on the market is truly ancient, most of it will never be worth a damn when it comes to accuracy.

Thats the BEST I can manage.. I just feel practice will pay off for most with there Saiga's..

No amount of practice in the world will improve a particular rifles intrinsic accuracy.

Nothing replaces trigger time as you should know. MOA doesn't matter either after the enemy hears the first few shots.

I know better then you, my point being that practice will not make the rifle more accurate, period. You keep implying that somehow by shooting a lot you will be able to transcend a rifles accuracy limitation.

Why do you believe that accuracy no longer comes into play once the enemy becomes aware they are being fired on? In my experience I find that targets get a lot smaller as people tend to take cover once they are fired on. What is your experience in this matter?

I used to shoot when I was 10-14 then stopped, then shot in the service 88-92, then stopped.

Then I got a Ruger 10/22 & Marlin P70 back in 1995, then the MN 91/30 about 2 years back.

The Saiga was my first rifle 7/2009 in decent caliber to actually repeatably shoot so I have THE MOST trigger time with them.

Great, you did a little FAM Fire back in the military and then started shooting a few months ago, This is not exactly what I would call a lot of real world experience.

Sincerely, Albert

You are polite Albert, I will give you that. I just believe that you try and speak far too loudly for someone that knows so little. And despite the shill's, "Johnny 1 Post," defense, it was quite obvious that your were speaking of a making a rifle that would shoot these very different calibers interchangeably. My point is you simply do not know what you are talking about half the time.

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IMPORTANT: READ CAREFULLY – Azrial's comments are provided solely to reform, chastise, or replace existing opinions. Inasmuch, Azrial holds no title to said Azrial comments IF Azrial comments are used only for non-profitable thought enhancement. Any other use of Azrial comments are strictly forbidden without the expressed written permission of Azrial. In so obtaining said permission you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions set forth in binding contract. If you do not agree to these terms and conditions, you may not copy, repeat, modify, think, or in any way use Azrial comments. Once contracted, unless you acquired the Azrial comments on external media, you may make a single copy of the Azrial comments solely for archival purposes or rethinking of the Azrial comments in the same context that the Azrial comments were previously expressed. Azrial retains all right, title, and interest in and to the Azrial comments. All rights not granted are reserved by Azrial. THE LIMITED WARRANTY (IF ANY) INCLUDED IN THE APPLICABLE AZRIAL COMMENTS APPLIES TO THE AZRIAL COMMENTS PROVIDED THE AZRIAL COMMENTS HAVE BEEN LICENSED BY YOU WITHIN THE TERM OF THE LIMITED WARRANTY OF THE APPLICABLE AZRIAL COMMENTS IF APPLICABLE.

Azrial you are seriously a dick. I have been reading over the .308 posts for the past couple days and seen you call people "a bald [should be bold] face liar" "a miserable little peice of roach shit" a "hysterical fag having a tantrum" and tell people that you "don't gave [should be give] a damn how insulted they are". Well it's obvious you dont care how insulting you are or how big of a dick you are. You tell people that they should "grow up" and "act like a man" but the only one I see having a tantrum is you. In any other firearms forum you would have been banned long ago for speaking to people like that and maybe you have gained some elite status here because you have contributed and written so many posts but that doesnt change the fact that, as a person, you are a peice of shit!!

Just a little of MHO that I already know you "don't gave a damn" about

Chase - If you've really been reading back over the posts, you'll notice that Azrial has more knowledge than you have ever thought about having. It seems that you don't have anything of value to contribute, so you attempt (very badly I might add) to attack someone who has wisdom that you are simply jealous of. Azrial calls it like it is and does not put up with bullshit from people like you. Honestly, that it not a bad thing. I would certainly prefer to gain knowledge from Azrial, rather than read your little tantrum.

Edited by Ammo & Lace, 13 September 2010 - 05:23 PM.

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Ammo & Lace, Azrial could be gods gift to man, the incarnate of Aries the god of war to help everyone build guns of their dreams. What I am saying is that no matter who you are, or how much knowledge you may have, its not appropriate to say the things that he has said. And regardless of how much info he knows and can share, I take offense to the things that he has said. I am not jealous of his wisdom, and I'm sure that much of it can be of great use to me. If he called you a "hysterical fag" you wouldnt have your nose up his butt right now. I have had many great teachers in my life but if any had said the things that he has said, i would have punched them square in their face. No matter how much knowledge they may hold. Sometimes people who think that they know it all can be serious dicks, and I think that's what's going on here.

Azrial you are seriously a dick. I have been reading over the .308 posts for the past couple days and seen you call people "a bald [should be bold] face liar" "a miserable little peice of roach shit" a "hysterical fag having a tantrum" and tell people that you "don't gave [should be give] a damn how insulted they are". Well it's obvious you dont care how insulting you are or how big of a dick you are. You tell people that they should "grow up" and "act like a man" but the only one I see having a tantrum is you. In any other firearms forum you would have been banned long ago for speaking to people like that and maybe you have gained some elite status here because you have contributed and written so many posts but that doesnt change the fact that, as a person, you are a peice of shit!!

Just a little of MHO that I already know you "don't gave a damn" about

Chase

Chase, there is a lot you do not know about the history of this board I gave you a Plus one so that would take my message here seriously.There is a group here that is didicated to spreading a lot of non-sense. This will ultimately cost a lot of people time, money and perhaps even more. You might want to take the time to read some more before coming to such a rash conclusion.

IMPORTANT: READ CAREFULLY – Azrial's comments are provided solely to reform, chastise, or replace existing opinions. Inasmuch, Azrial holds no title to said Azrial comments IF Azrial comments are used only for non-profitable thought enhancement. Any other use of Azrial comments are strictly forbidden without the expressed written permission of Azrial. In so obtaining said permission you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions set forth in binding contract. If you do not agree to these terms and conditions, you may not copy, repeat, modify, think, or in any way use Azrial comments. Once contracted, unless you acquired the Azrial comments on external media, you may make a single copy of the Azrial comments solely for archival purposes or rethinking of the Azrial comments in the same context that the Azrial comments were previously expressed. Azrial retains all right, title, and interest in and to the Azrial comments. All rights not granted are reserved by Azrial. THE LIMITED WARRANTY (IF ANY) INCLUDED IN THE APPLICABLE AZRIAL COMMENTS APPLIES TO THE AZRIAL COMMENTS PROVIDED THE AZRIAL COMMENTS HAVE BEEN LICENSED BY YOU WITHIN THE TERM OF THE LIMITED WARRANTY OF THE APPLICABLE AZRIAL COMMENTS IF APPLICABLE.

Honestly, if you had to have something in x54r, I'd get a MN 91/30 or a later variation thereof, or a PSL. Granted, I've seen some people take their PSLs, cut down the barrel, and slap on a pg, so that is always an option as well.

Oh, I would definitely go with the Saiga. I like the rifle, I just do not believe a lot of the hype about it. It would be great if someone came up with a decently priced 20 round mag for it. However, one of our members was making some by hand, from H&K mags.

IMPORTANT: READ CAREFULLY – Azrial's comments are provided solely to reform, chastise, or replace existing opinions. Inasmuch, Azrial holds no title to said Azrial comments IF Azrial comments are used only for non-profitable thought enhancement. Any other use of Azrial comments are strictly forbidden without the expressed written permission of Azrial. In so obtaining said permission you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions set forth in binding contract. If you do not agree to these terms and conditions, you may not copy, repeat, modify, think, or in any way use Azrial comments. Once contracted, unless you acquired the Azrial comments on external media, you may make a single copy of the Azrial comments solely for archival purposes or rethinking of the Azrial comments in the same context that the Azrial comments were previously expressed. Azrial retains all right, title, and interest in and to the Azrial comments. All rights not granted are reserved by Azrial. THE LIMITED WARRANTY (IF ANY) INCLUDED IN THE APPLICABLE AZRIAL COMMENTS APPLIES TO THE AZRIAL COMMENTS PROVIDED THE AZRIAL COMMENTS HAVE BEEN LICENSED BY YOU WITHIN THE TERM OF THE LIMITED WARRANTY OF THE APPLICABLE AZRIAL COMMENTS IF APPLICABLE.

Nope, I'm a real person. Long time lurker, first time poster. I just take offense you your claims to know everything and put everyone else down, regardless of your post count. Do you think that makes you king of the internet or something?

But hey, maybe you really are putting people down in a righteous attempt to dispel the frequent claims that some people can get their Saiga to do a decent group.

I know mine can, and your claims of what a great shot you are and your post count just don't impress me.

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Azrial you are seriously a dick. I have been reading over the .308 posts for the past couple days and seen you call people "a bald [should be bold] face liar" "a miserable little peice of roach shit" a "hysterical fag having a tantrum" and tell people that you "don't gave [should be give] a damn how insulted they are". Well it's obvious you dont care how insulting you are or how big of a dick you are. You tell people that they should "grow up" and "act like a man" but the only one I see having a tantrum is you. In any other firearms forum you would have been banned long ago for speaking to people like that and maybe you have gained some elite status here because you have contributed and written so many posts but that doesnt change the fact that, as a person, you are a peice of shit!!

Just a little of MHO that I already know you "don't gave a damn" about

Chase

Chase, there is a lot you do not know about the history of this board I gave you a Plus one so that would take my message here seriously.There is a group here that is didicated to spreading a lot of non-sense. This will ultimately cost a lot of people time, money and perhaps even more. You might want to take the time to read some more before coming to such a rash conclusion.

I appreciate your mature response to my post. Perhaps there is more going on than meets the eye.

Azrial.. I am not going to argue with you. I said my half and am sticking with it.

when you shoot a 3 shot 1 1/4" group with your Saiga 545x39 at 100 yards then come talk to me. When you shoot a 308 Saiga 200 yards and do UNDER 2"x4" consistently with 4-6 shots then you talk to me.

I will say you have been really negative lately.

thats it. end of story.

Sincerely and Cheerily,

Albert

No Albert, I admit, I can not shoot a "group" anywhere near that size with an AK. I can however shoot a "hole" far smaller than that with my M1A or my Remington PSS. But as this conversation has been about intrinsic accuracy, as opposed to marksmanship, I hardly see how that is germane to the discussion. You do not seem to understand the difference, when the OP asked about crowning a barrel and you suggest, in one of your posts, "practice.".

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IMPORTANT: READ CAREFULLY – Azrial's comments are provided solely to reform, chastise, or replace existing opinions. Inasmuch, Azrial holds no title to said Azrial comments IF Azrial comments are used only for non-profitable thought enhancement. Any other use of Azrial comments are strictly forbidden without the expressed written permission of Azrial. In so obtaining said permission you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions set forth in binding contract. If you do not agree to these terms and conditions, you may not copy, repeat, modify, think, or in any way use Azrial comments. Once contracted, unless you acquired the Azrial comments on external media, you may make a single copy of the Azrial comments solely for archival purposes or rethinking of the Azrial comments in the same context that the Azrial comments were previously expressed. Azrial retains all right, title, and interest in and to the Azrial comments. All rights not granted are reserved by Azrial. THE LIMITED WARRANTY (IF ANY) INCLUDED IN THE APPLICABLE AZRIAL COMMENTS APPLIES TO THE AZRIAL COMMENTS PROVIDED THE AZRIAL COMMENTS HAVE BEEN LICENSED BY YOU WITHIN THE TERM OF THE LIMITED WARRANTY OF THE APPLICABLE AZRIAL COMMENTS IF APPLICABLE.

"No Albert, I admit, I can not shoot a "group" anywhere near that size with an AK. I can however shoot a "hole" far smaller than that with my M1A or my Remington PSS."

If you can't shoot a group with an AK that small.. WHY do you bash everyone on here that CAN with a Saiga??

I know I can't do it EVERY single time (obviously more rounds heats things up).. and AK's in general SUCK with full auto and 3rd world USED crapola.. But the Saiga's can with 3-4 shots do it.. with patience and practice.. much like your M1A..

Not arguing on this.. you are very smart and talented.. I know this..

but give some of the board/newbies a chance to try a Saiga before you say THEY CAN'T..