The Anglican Church actually does have a canonized saint , the last King of England who was beheaded, King Charles I. I dont know how that is workable considering that most Protestants dont believe in the theology concerning the communion of saints

*sigh*

The Anglican Church has a canonized saint because the Anglican Church believes in the communion of the saints. (facepalm)

I really wish people would check Wikipedia or do a Google search before lumping groups of Protestants together.

The Anglican Church not only venerates saints, but it also venerates and honors the Blessed Mother, has icons, statues, and many other elements common in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. This is because it has a shared History with these churches.

Worship in the Anglican Church is Liturgical and sacramental. If one were to attend the Eucharistic Liturgy of an Anglo-Catholic parish, one might actually think they were in a Tridentine Roman Catholic Mass; that is how Liturgical Anglican worship is.

For the record, the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church, and the Methodists all believe in the communion of saints, and have saints within their Churches.

It is more of the Baptists, Pentecostals, and Charismatics that stray from this belief.

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Thank you for the correction, however I did read that on wikipedia, about King Charles in the Anglican Church . I would also point out that you have 'three churchs" in the Anglican Church ..that is I mean it is not "one fits all"

Lutheranism.. it depends.. it depends on the level of pietism that is prevelant in a particular Lutheran "Synod" Some Lutheran are closer to this then others...to many shades of gray, to much ambiguity

For the record, the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church, and the Methodists all believe in the communion of saints, and have saints within their Churches.

I disagree. They might have some vestiges of their Catholic roots, but none of them are currently living in this reality nor have been for centuries. They might keep up some names in the calendar and have a theoretical commemoration of holy people, but good luck with relics or actually canonizing anyone as a saint who should be prayed to since the Reformation. Just because there is a liturgical structure and perhaps some vestments does not put these folks in the same camp. Not by a long-shot.

For the record, the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church, and the Methodists all believe in the communion of saints, and have saints within their Churches.

I disagree. They might have some vestiges of their Catholic roots, but none of them are currently living in this reality nor have been for centuries. They might keep up some names in the calendar and have a theoretical commemoration of holy people, but good luck with relics or actually canonizing anyone as a saint who should be prayed to since the Reformation. Just because there is a liturgical structure and perhaps some vestments does not put these folks in the same camp. Not by a long-shot.

Just because they do not venerate the saints the same way we do does not mean we should dismiss their acknowledgement of the saints all together.

Lex orandi, lex credendi.

If their liturgical documents include the worship of the saints, and it is in their daily lectionary, that is saint veneration. The Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham is an excellent example of Anglican saint veneration.

Furthermore, to categorize all Protestants in one monolithic block is inaccurate and false. While a Baptist and an Anglican may agree on the virgin birth and Resurrection of Christ, there are a number of beliefs which they will differ severely on.

There is a reason why there are so many Protestant groups; it is because they differ on theology and doctrine. To be dismissive of those differences is insulting and wrong.

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

It sounds like a catch 22 . the problem lies in what you just said . some believe and some dont thats all I have to say about it . Seriously though , no one in my experience as a former Lutheran or even in attending Baptist Church or some of the other protestant churches I have gone to would acknowledge the communion of saints the same way the Orthodox do or even some old school old time Roman Catholics.

It sounds like a catch 22 . the problem lies in what you just said . some believe and some dont thats all I have to say about it . Seriously though , no one in my experience as a former Lutheran or even in attending Baptist Church or some of the other protestant churches I have gone to would acknowledge the communion of saints the same way the Orthodox do or even some old school old time Roman Catholics.

But that's my point. Different Protestants believe different things.

Don't lump them all together.

They don't worship the same as Orthodox Christians because they aren't Orthodox Christians.

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

The Anglican Church actually does have a canonized saint , the last King of England who was beheaded, King Charles I. I dont know how that is workable considering that most Protestants dont believe in the theology concerning the communion of saints

*sigh*

The Anglican Church has a canonized saint because the Anglican Church believes in the communion of the saints. (facepalm)

I really wish people would check Wikipedia or do a Google search before lumping groups of Protestants together.

The Anglican Church not only venerates saints, but it also venerates and honors the Blessed Mother, has icons, statues, and many other elements common in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. This is because it has a shared History with these churches.

Worship in the Anglican Church is Liturgical and sacramental. If one were to attend the Eucharistic Liturgy of an Anglo-Catholic parish, one might actually think they were in a Tridentine Roman Catholic Mass; that is how Liturgical Anglican worship is.

For the record, the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church, and the Methodists all believe in the communion of saints, and have saints within their Churches.

I'm interested to know what you mean by a Methodist understanding of the communion of saints. I was Methodist most of my life before becoming Orthodox, yet I saw very little that I would call belief in the communion of saints. Maybe you mean something different from what I could see?

I'm interested to know what you mean by a Methodist understanding of the communion of saints. I was Methodist most of my life before becoming Orthodox, yet I saw very little that I would call belief in the communion of saints. Maybe you mean something different from what I could see?

Quote

United Methodists believe in saints, but not in the same manner as the Roman Catholic Church.

We recognize Matthew, Paul, John, Luke and other early followers of Jesus as saints, and countless numbers of United Methodist churches are named after these saints.

We also recognize and celebrate All Saints' Day (Nov. 1) and "all the saints who from their labors rest."

However, our denomination does not have any system whereby people are elected to sainthood. We do not pray to saints, nor do we believe they serve as mediators to God. United Methodists call people "saints" because they exemplified the Christian life. In this sense, every Christian can be considered a saint.

United Methodist believe "... there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human who gave himself a ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:5-6a).

John Wesley believed we have much to learn from the saints, but he did not encourage anyone to worship them. He expressed concern about the Church of England's focus on saints' days and said that "most of the holy days were at present answering no valuable end."

It sounds like a catch 22 . the problem lies in what you just said . some believe and some dont thats all I have to say about it . Seriously though , no one in my experience as a former Lutheran or even in attending Baptist Church or some of the other protestant churches I have gone to would acknowledge the communion of saints the same way the Orthodox do or even some old school old time Roman Catholics.

But that's my point. Different Protestants believe different things.

Don't lump them all together.

They don't worship the same as Orthodox Christians because they aren't Orthodox Christians.

This lumping everyone together thing.....I know how I feel when we are all 'lumped' together by 'outsiders' who make no distinctions among us ranging from our traditionalists like the RTOC and GOC through the vast spectrum of all the rest of us.

It sounds like a catch 22 . the problem lies in what you just said . some believe and some dont thats all I have to say about it . Seriously though , no one in my experience as a former Lutheran or even in attending Baptist Church or some of the other protestant churches I have gone to would acknowledge the communion of saints the same way the Orthodox do or even some old school old time Roman Catholics.

But that's my point. Different Protestants believe different things.

Don't lump them all together.

They don't worship the same as Orthodox Christians because they aren't Orthodox Christians.

This lumping everyone together thing.....I know how I feel when we are all 'lumped' together by 'outsiders' who make no distinctions among us ranging from our traditionalists like the RTOC and GOC through the vast spectrum of all the rest of us.

Usually I get people lumping us together with Catholics.

When defending the faith, I usually find myself explaining Catholic doctrine first, then how Orthodox doctrine is different from Catholic doctrine.

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

I'm interested to know what you mean by a Methodist understanding of the communion of saints. I was Methodist most of my life before becoming Orthodox, yet I saw very little that I would call belief in the communion of saints. Maybe you mean something different from what I could see?

Quote

United Methodists believe in saints, but not in the same manner as the Roman Catholic Church.

We recognize Matthew, Paul, John, Luke and other early followers of Jesus as saints, and countless numbers of United Methodist churches are named after these saints.

We also recognize and celebrate All Saints' Day (Nov. 1) and "all the saints who from their labors rest."

However, our denomination does not have any system whereby people are elected to sainthood. We do not pray to saints, nor do we believe they serve as mediators to God. United Methodists call people "saints" because they exemplified the Christian life. In this sense, every Christian can be considered a saint.

United Methodist believe "... there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human who gave himself a ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:5-6a).

John Wesley believed we have much to learn from the saints, but he did not encourage anyone to worship them. He expressed concern about the Church of England's focus on saints' days and said that "most of the holy days were at present answering no valuable end."

(Ironically enough, they have an Orthodox icon on the page I quoted this from! lol)

Okay, I see what you mean. Thanks. I never was a member of the United Methodist Church specifically, but this attitude toward the saints is pretty consistent with what I experienced in the more conservative Evangelical Church of North America (German Methodists who refused to unite with the UMC) and the Church of the Nazarene (Wesleyan church closely akin to the Free Methodists).

Okay, I see what you mean. Thanks. I never was a member of the United Methodist Church specifically, but this attitude toward the saints is pretty consistent with what I experienced in the more conservative Evangelical Church of North America (German Methodists who refused to unite with the UMC) and the Church of the Nazarene (Wesleyan church closely akin to the Free Methodists).

Interesting. I was a Free Methodist for 50+ years with plenty of connections to the Evangelical Church (actually the Evangelical Missionary Church as it has become in Canada since a merger) and the Nazarenes (I have two brothers-in-law in ministry in that denomination). Yet, I recall no mention of any "Saint Name", nor any church named after someone honoured with "Saint" - plenty named in memory of others, however - unless it was part of a geographical name.

If there was any commemoration of "All Saints Day", I missed every memo.

So even within denominations and closely related ones, there is not necessarily agreement on some beliefs and practices.

Okay, I see what you mean. Thanks. I never was a member of the United Methodist Church specifically, but this attitude toward the saints is pretty consistent with what I experienced in the more conservative Evangelical Church of North America (German Methodists who refused to unite with the UMC) and the Church of the Nazarene (Wesleyan church closely akin to the Free Methodists).

Interesting. I was a Free Methodist for 50+ years with plenty of connections to the Evangelical Church (actually the Evangelical Missionary Church as it has become in Canada since a merger) and the Nazarenes (I have two brothers-in-law in ministry in that denomination). Yet, I recall no mention of any "Saint Name", nor any church named after someone honoured with "Saint" - plenty named in memory of others, however - unless it was part of a geographical name.

If there was any commemoration of "All Saints Day", I missed every memo.

So even within denominations and closely related ones, there is not necessarily agreement on some beliefs and practices.

"Consistent", however, doesn't mean they engage in the same practices. It just means that UMC practice does not contradict the ethos I experienced in my church homes.

Okay, I see what you mean. Thanks. I never was a member of the United Methodist Church specifically, but this attitude toward the saints is pretty consistent with what I experienced in the more conservative Evangelical Church of North America (German Methodists who refused to unite with the UMC) and the Church of the Nazarene (Wesleyan church closely akin to the Free Methodists).

Interesting. I was a Free Methodist for 50+ years with plenty of connections to the Evangelical Church (actually the Evangelical Missionary Church as it has become in Canada since a merger) and the Nazarenes (I have two brothers-in-law in ministry in that denomination). Yet, I recall no mention of any "Saint Name", nor any church named after someone honoured with "Saint" - plenty named in memory of others, however - unless it was part of a geographical name.

If there was any commemoration of "All Saints Day", I missed every memo.

So even within denominations and closely related ones, there is not necessarily agreement on some beliefs and practices.

"Consistent", however, doesn't mean they engage in the same practices. It just means that UMC practice does not contradict the ethos I experienced in my church homes.

And my point, PtA, is that UMC practice and "attitude toward the saints" are not necessarily those of other denominations with a Methodist heritage. Your experiences and mine in those denominations are apparently quite different.

Okay, I see what you mean. Thanks. I never was a member of the United Methodist Church specifically, but this attitude toward the saints is pretty consistent with what I experienced in the more conservative Evangelical Church of North America (German Methodists who refused to unite with the UMC) and the Church of the Nazarene (Wesleyan church closely akin to the Free Methodists).

Interesting. I was a Free Methodist for 50+ years with plenty of connections to the Evangelical Church (actually the Evangelical Missionary Church as it has become in Canada since a merger) and the Nazarenes (I have two brothers-in-law in ministry in that denomination). Yet, I recall no mention of any "Saint Name", nor any church named after someone honoured with "Saint" - plenty named in memory of others, however - unless it was part of a geographical name.

If there was any commemoration of "All Saints Day", I missed every memo.

So even within denominations and closely related ones, there is not necessarily agreement on some beliefs and practices.

"Consistent", however, doesn't mean they engage in the same practices. It just means that UMC practice does not contradict the ethos I experienced in my church homes.

And my point, PtA, is that UMC practice and "attitude toward the saints" are not necessarily those of other denominations with a Methodist heritage. Your experiences and mine in those denominations are apparently quite different.

Orthodoxy seems in some ways like the church in the photo: hidden away, hard to find, and likely to be overlooked. Inside (I do not mean this particular church) are riches largely unknown - as indeed there are in other 'traditions' such as the Moravians whom we have been discussing, and the early Wesleyans.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 03:31:04 AM by David Young »

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

I disagree. They might have some vestiges of their Catholic roots, but none of them are currently living in this reality nor have been for centuries. They might keep up some names in the calendar and have a theoretical commemoration of holy people, but good luck with relics or actually canonizing anyone as a saint who should be prayed to since the Reformation.

Indeed, I don't imagine any Lutherans or Methodists will be canonizing anyone as a saint who should be prayed to any time soon.

I grant you your point, Peter J, but would modify it a bit by asking what makes it so that all the groups you listed should be grouped together as catholic? Not even the RC and the Orthodox can agree on what this means, even without bringing the Anglicans and Lutherans into the mix.

I grant you your point, Peter J, but would modify it a bit by asking what makes it so that all the groups you listed should be grouped together as catholic? Not even the RC and the Orthodox can agree on what this means, even without bringing the Anglicans and Lutherans into the mix.

It isn't just me: it's pretty standard to include Lutherans, Anglicans, Catholics, and Orthodox under the term "catholics", and Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists etc under the term "protestants". (The terms "apostolic", if I'm not mistaken, usually includes Anglicans, Catholics, and Orthodox, but not Lutherans.)

David i'm curious, have you ever been to an Orthodox service... during holy week / Pascha?

No - but it rather looks as if we shall be on holiday in Greece next year (God willing) at Orthodox Easter, as it falls in the fortnight when we usually go. What would you suggest I do to experience the best of it?

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

David i'm curious, have you ever been to an Orthodox service... during holy week / Pascha?

No - but it rather looks as if we shall be on holiday in Greece next year (God willing) at Orthodox Easter, as it falls in the fortnight when we usually go. What would you suggest I do to experience the best of it?

Orthodox Pascha is six weeks after western Easter next year. What a blessing for you that you will be in Greece during Pascha. I have never been to Greece at any time, let alone for Pascha, but I would imagine the best advice would be "try to attend a few of the services during Holy Week, and especially the midnight service for Pascha."

Beware! My wife read somewhere that once a person sets foot on Greek soil, he is in love with Greece for life. I went there first in 1981, and can't get enough of it. The sun, the food, the wine, the wild flowers, the music, the snowy mountains, the turquoise sea, the deep gorges, the friendly welcoming people (except when they are in uniform!), the thousand-year-old Byzantine churches (nay, the 5th or 6th century church at Kenispolis). (The beautiful young females? - Well, they were discussed on the Forum a few weeks ago!)

You must go!

« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 10:18:43 AM by David Young »

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

It is a very good time to visit Greece, since the econoical crisis is leading to lower prices. In fact, I was in Thssaloniki one week ago, and it was great. I do feel sad for the people though, especially those who lost their jobs or had to close their shops.

It is a very good time to visit Greece, since the econoical crisis is leading to lower prices. In fact, I was in Thssaloniki one week ago, and it was great. I do feel sad for the people though, especially those who lost their jobs or had to close their shops.

We were in the Peleponnese for a fortnight - Neapoli, Pylos, Stemnitza mainly - and life seemed normal, except that one had to be careful driving, as the roads were not being repaired. Prices didn't seem to have changed from previous euro-years (though of course they shot up when the drachma was abandoned).

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

I think my daughters will get there before me. They're 14 and 16 and have a same-age friend whose aunt lives in Greece with her family (Thessaloniki, I think). Her husband is a priest, and she has 2-3 year old triplets. This friend of our daughters' goes once a year, and this year invited my girls to go with her. It was a great thought, but we didn't have the money for it at the time so the option went to a couple of others. I'm sure they'll get the chance again. Sounds beautiful there.

I took my daughter to Albania when she was 17, twenty years ago, and left her with a family I knew in a mountain village for a week whilst I went off and engaged in the work. She loved it, and has never stopped talking about it! Yes, send them... they'll be grateful for decades to come.

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Here's and attempt to attach a picture. Thought it might amuse y'all. It's from a school book teaching Arbëresh children the sounds of the letters of the alphabet, and ortodoks illustrates the sound of the letter o. I was tickled by their choice of word and accompanying picture. (Double left click it and it gets bigger.)

Being a native speaker, the word, Ortodoks rolls better on the tounge than Orthodhoks. The latter version is what the Church of Albania uses officially as its title. Although both are correct. As th and dh are both letters in the Albanian alphabet. Dh, as in that. Th as in third.

Orthodoxy in Albania did not always have such a smooth ride. It started with Noli in early 20th century(with the hudson incident). Then we had a 50-year long communist rule. It's revival, afterwards. It should have contributed more, in my opinion, when it came to the use of Albanian language in liturgical texts. This matter was always one of contention between Albanian Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox. Let's hope and pray for the best in the future.

Have you read a book called (if I remember correctly) "The Resurrection of the Church in Albania"? It is about Orthodoxy during and after Communism. And are you in touch with Nathan Hoppe, American Orthodox missionary in Albania, teaching (when I met him, presumably still) at the Orthodox seminary near Durrës?

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

David Young and Pyetja, would you both please post English translations of the conversation you just had above in Albanian? Whereas we do permit posters to use non-English languages in their posts, outside of the Foreign Languages board we require that every use of a non-English language be accompanied by an English translation.

I never lived in Albania but visited many times, starting in 1974, when I went for the first time to Kosova and Montenegro. I had secret contact with the Evangelical church in Korcha, founded in the 19th century by Gj Q, so when Albania opened after Communism I went to Korcha (1991). Then a large number of visits here and there until 2012 when I made a third visit to Hora e Arbëreshëvet in Sicily. Now, beng old (66) I have retired and only leave UK for holidays.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 05:52:58 PM by David Young »

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15