This is really the crux of the issue. A religious person respecting an atheist wouldn't say grace. An atheist respecting a religious person would bow their head while grace is said. If you have these two disparate groups eating at the same table, someone will not be respected . . . and in my experience this is always the atheist.

I don't have a solution for the problem and would encourage someone who doesn't believe in God to bow their head and stay quiet . . . but it's a pretty obvious double standard, and it's evident how this might be grating/frustrating for the person who doesn't believe in religion to constantly be forced to pay respects to other people's beliefs - other people who refuse to respect his own.

I consider myself agnostic, not atheist, but I have no problem with saying a prayer or bowing for a prayer. I'm not disrespected in the least when people pray around me. When I pray, I don't pray for intercession from a deity, but I do find value in being humble and articulating thankfulness. But whatever. You can be offended by prayer if you wish.

I'm not personally offended by prayer at all but like you, I'm not an atheist.

This is really the crux of the issue. A religious person respecting an atheist wouldn't say grace. An atheist respecting a religious person would bow their head while grace is said. If you have these two disparate groups eating at the same table, someone will not be respected . . . and in my experience this is always the atheist.

I don't have a solution for the problem and would encourage someone who doesn't believe in God to bow their head and stay quiet . . . but it's a pretty obvious double standard, and it's evident how this might be grating/frustrating for the person who doesn't believe in religion to constantly be forced to pay respects to other people's beliefs - other people who refuse to respect his own.

I don't mind bowing my head and praying occasionally, because I am truly thankful for life, food, health, etc. Meditating on that is healthy, so I do not feel too offended when praying (for the right purposes; can't stand when people pray to win before a sporting event or election).

As mentioned, this isn't something that personally offends me . . . but common advice is to let the religious celebrate their religion in the name of respect (indeed, this is the advice I give my son). This respect doesn't usually extend to those who are uncomfortable with the celebration of religion though, which is weird.

Agreed, meditating is healthy and there's nothing offensive about giving thanks. If a grace doesn't mention a deity and simply discusses thankfulness, that would should be acceptable and inoffensive to anyone. I've rarely heard a grace said before a meal that didn't directly mention a God or blessings from a God though.

My personal judgment in situations like this is kind of contradictory and maybe counter intuitive, but I would expect the atheist to respect the religious person by bowing their head while the prayer was being said but if they didn't for the religious person to respect the atheist by not complaining about it.

In non-consensual relationships that I did not choose and from which I cannot decide to remove myself (government officials and their laws... In fact, it is my duty to subvert them whenever possible.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

If you live in a democracy, government officials and their laws are chosen by you. There are many ways that you can decide to remove yourself from their control . . . leaving the country, running for office or becoming politically active to change the system, etc. Actively attempting to subvert the laws of the land wherever possible is actively working against the will of your countrymen, and a betrayal of your country.

Maybe this is the American (versus Canadian) in me, but we tend to celebrate a little rebellion against tyranny. Boston Tea Party? Declaration of Independence (aka Fuck You George!)? MLK? Etc. (Let's leave the Civil War out, we all know (to a certain degree in retrospect) that slavery is fucked up.)

That being said, falling under government is to some extent a social contract, unless you believe in anarchy. Therefore, one should consider it a consensual relationship, unless certain particular laws are negatively affecting the rights of man.

This is really the crux of the issue. A religious person respecting an atheist wouldn't say grace. An atheist respecting a religious person would bow their head while grace is said. If you have these two disparate groups eating at the same table, someone will not be respected . . . and in my experience this is always the atheist.

I don't have a solution for the problem and would encourage someone who doesn't believe in God to bow their head and stay quiet . . . but it's a pretty obvious double standard, and it's evident how this might be grating/frustrating for the person who doesn't believe in religion to constantly be forced to pay respects to other people's beliefs - other people who refuse to respect his own.

I consider myself agnostic, not atheist, but I have no problem with saying a prayer or bowing for a prayer. I'm not disrespected in the least when people pray around me. When I pray, I don't pray for intercession from a deity, but I do find value in being humble and articulating thankfulness. But whatever. You can be offended by prayer if you wish.

I'm not personally offended by prayer at all but like you, I'm not an atheist.

This is really the crux of the issue. A religious person respecting an atheist wouldn't say grace. An atheist respecting a religious person would bow their head while grace is said. If you have these two disparate groups eating at the same table, someone will not be respected . . . and in my experience this is always the atheist.

I don't have a solution for the problem and would encourage someone who doesn't believe in God to bow their head and stay quiet . . . but it's a pretty obvious double standard, and it's evident how this might be grating/frustrating for the person who doesn't believe in religion to constantly be forced to pay respects to other people's beliefs - other people who refuse to respect his own.

I don't mind bowing my head and praying occasionally, because I am truly thankful for life, food, health, etc. Meditating on that is healthy, so I do not feel too offended when praying (for the right purposes; can't stand when people pray to win before a sporting event or election).

As mentioned, this isn't something that personally offends me . . . but common advice is to let the religious celebrate their religion in the name of respect (indeed, this is the advice I give my son). This respect doesn't usually extend to those who are uncomfortable with the celebration of religion though, which is weird.

Agreed, meditating is healthy and there's nothing offensive about giving thanks. If a grace doesn't mention a deity and simply discusses thankfulness, that would should be acceptable and inoffensive to anyone. I've rarely heard a grace said before a meal that didn't directly mention a God or blessings from a God though.

My personal judgment in situations like this is kind of contradictory and maybe counter intuitive, but I would expect the atheist to respect the religious person by bowing their head while the prayer was being said but if they didn't for the religious person to respect the atheist by not complaining about it.

If I gave thanks to our dark Lord Satan in grace, for the bounty he has bestowed upon his followers would you expect a Christian to quietly bow their head and go along? What if I gave thanks to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for touching our pasta with His noodley appendage?

If I gave thanks to our dark Lord Satan in grace, for the bounty he has bestowed upon his followers would you expect a Christian to quietly bow their head and go along? What if I gave thanks to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for touching our pasta with His noodley appendage?

If I gave thanks to our dark Lord Satan in grace, for the bounty he has bestowed upon his followers would you expect a Christian to quietly bow their head and go along? What if I gave thanks to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for touching our pasta with His noodley appendage?

This is really the crux of the issue. A religious person respecting an atheist wouldn't say grace. An atheist respecting a religious person would bow their head while grace is said. If you have these two disparate groups eating at the same table, someone will not be respected . . . and in my experience this is always the atheist.

I don't have a solution for the problem and would encourage someone who doesn't believe in God to bow their head and stay quiet . . . but it's a pretty obvious double standard, and it's evident how this might be grating/frustrating for the person who doesn't believe in religion to constantly be forced to pay respects to other people's beliefs - other people who refuse to respect his own.

I consider myself agnostic, not atheist, but I have no problem with saying a prayer or bowing for a prayer. I'm not disrespected in the least when people pray around me. When I pray, I don't pray for intercession from a deity, but I do find value in being humble and articulating thankfulness. But whatever. You can be offended by prayer if you wish.

I'm not personally offended by prayer at all but like you, I'm not an atheist.

This is really the crux of the issue. A religious person respecting an atheist wouldn't say grace. An atheist respecting a religious person would bow their head while grace is said. If you have these two disparate groups eating at the same table, someone will not be respected . . . and in my experience this is always the atheist.

I don't have a solution for the problem and would encourage someone who doesn't believe in God to bow their head and stay quiet . . . but it's a pretty obvious double standard, and it's evident how this might be grating/frustrating for the person who doesn't believe in religion to constantly be forced to pay respects to other people's beliefs - other people who refuse to respect his own.

I don't mind bowing my head and praying occasionally, because I am truly thankful for life, food, health, etc. Meditating on that is healthy, so I do not feel too offended when praying (for the right purposes; can't stand when people pray to win before a sporting event or election).

As mentioned, this isn't something that personally offends me . . . but common advice is to let the religious celebrate their religion in the name of respect (indeed, this is the advice I give my son). This respect doesn't usually extend to those who are uncomfortable with the celebration of religion though, which is weird.

Agreed, meditating is healthy and there's nothing offensive about giving thanks. If a grace doesn't mention a deity and simply discusses thankfulness, that would should be acceptable and inoffensive to anyone. I've rarely heard a grace said before a meal that didn't directly mention a God or blessings from a God though.

My personal judgment in situations like this is kind of contradictory and maybe counter intuitive, but I would expect the atheist to respect the religious person by bowing their head while the prayer was being said but if they didn't for the religious person to respect the atheist by not complaining about it.

If I gave thanks to our dark Lord Satan in grace, for the bounty he has bestowed upon his followers would you expect a Christian to quietly bow their head and go along? What if I gave thanks to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for touching our pasta with His noodley appendage?

Yep! But if they didn't I would expect you not to complain about it, and it would only have a minor negative effect on my opinion of them (same with the atheist who chooses not to bow their head).

If I gave thanks to our dark Lord Satan in grace, for the bounty he has bestowed upon his followers would you expect a Christian to quietly bow their head and go along? What if I gave thanks to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for touching our pasta with His noodley appendage?

Personally? None. I do know people who have not been hired for lying on their job applications. Fun story: My boss once interviewed applicants for an internship, one of whom claimed to be "fluent in Spanish" on his application. My boss studied in Uruguay and regularly travels to Central and South America so he opened the interview with a question in Spanish. The applicant froze, then admitted that he had travelled to Mexico once with his family, but was not conversational in Spanish. My boss advised him to never lie on a job application again and ended the interview.

I interviewed an Asian-looking kid who claimed to speak Chinese. Unluckily for him, I speak it... and he didn't. Took a chance and hired him anyways, and he turned out to be one of my best employees!

I admit to taking pleasure in assigning him to configure several computers with a Chinese-language OS installed... normally would have done it myself.

Too many quotes in quotes to get the quote I want. But I'd like to suggest that you can be respectful to Christians praying by merely being still and quiet while they pray. Not bowing your head is not disrespectful.

As an atheist, a Christian praying doesn't bother me, nor do I find it disrespectful to me. You do you.

On the other hand, expecting me to bow my head to your God is unreasonable. If you suggested a Christian bow to any diety that isn't their god it would be highly offensive....and directly disrespectful to their god.

I don't see bowing as a polite action. I see it as a form of subservience. I wouldn't bow to our president (not part of US culture), I don't bow to England's monarchs (because I don't fall under their monarchy), etc. I don't bow to your god, and there's no way in hell you'd bow to a foreign god... in fact, that would be seen as betrayal of your own god.

The religious discussion is very interesting. As someone who is on the fence between agnostic/atheist, I bow my head when I visit family who are religious. Their table, their rules, and I think it is respectful. OTOH, when my religious family comes to my house, they can pray silently to themselves if they want while I dig in and talk to others, because it's my house now.

[…] As someone who is on the fence between agnostic/atheist, I bow my head when I visit family who are religious. Their table, their rules, and I think it is respectful. OTOH, when my religious family comes to my house, they can pray silently to themselves if they want while I dig in and talk to others, because it's my house now.

For me this pretty much hits it on the head. It’s about circumstance, right?. Family? Friends? Work party? Close family- I know we are all Roman Catholic religious so no problem we all say our particular version of grace. Over thanksgiving I was with my brother’s family, who is Methodist. We kinda traded out who said grace first for which meal, and for the sake of our (very young) kids we then said the other family’s version second. But in years past we’ve all been adults about it and whoever doesn’t say it out loud just takes a few more seconds to themselves before digging in.

If I have some of my non-religious friends over, yah, I expect them to tolerate me saying grace with my family, but I don’t expect them to participate or do anything other than sit/stand quietly for 30 seconds. In return I don’t expect anything over at their places- they just see me go quiet for a few seconds (in your head goes a lot faster than out loud). I mean, spreading the faith is great and all, but you aren't gonna win any converts by forcing people to listen to a 30 second spiel once in a blue moon. What are you really trying to accomplish in that setting? Are you really trying to say thanks, or are you trying to show off how pious you are? Don't let left hand know what your right is doing, and all that.

What if, at a large non-family gathering, someone running the show grabbed the mike to say “Hey food is ready. Feel free to go ahead and start eating- if you want to say grace then bow your heads with me…” Would that be awkward?

[…] As someone who is on the fence between agnostic/atheist, I bow my head when I visit family who are religious. Their table, their rules, and I think it is respectful. OTOH, when my religious family comes to my house, they can pray silently to themselves if they want while I dig in and talk to others, because it's my house now.

For me this pretty much hits it on the head. It’s about circumstance, right?. Family? Friends? Work party? Close family- I know we are all Roman Catholic religious so no problem we all say our particular version of grace. Over thanksgiving I was with my brother’s family, who is Methodist. We kinda traded out who said grace first for which meal, and for the sake of our (very young) kids we then said the other family’s version second. But in years past we’ve all been adults about it and whoever doesn’t say it out loud just takes a few more seconds to themselves before digging in.

If I have some of my non-religious friends over, yah, I expect them to tolerate me saying grace with my family, but I don’t expect them to participate or do anything other than sit/stand quietly for 30 seconds. In return I don’t expect anything over at their places- they just see me go quiet for a few seconds (in your head goes a lot faster than out loud). I mean, spreading the faith is great and all, but you aren't gonna win any converts by forcing people to listen to a 30 second spiel once in a blue moon. What are you really trying to accomplish in that setting? Are you really trying to say thanks, or are you trying to show off how pious you are? Don't let left hand know what your right is doing, and all that.

What if, at a large non-family gathering, someone running the show grabbed the mike to say “Hey food is ready. Feel free to go ahead and start eating- if you want to say grace then bow your heads with me…” Would that be awkward?

We fell into a group of friends that do the "lets hold hands for a minute and say thanks/grace" thing at dinner parties. It's pretty non-denominational, and though I'm not religious, I consider that a "when in Rome moment" and go along. After all, I'm grateful to have food in general, even if I don't think a deity is responsible for it versus farmers and ranchers and cooks.

But if it was really over-the-top or made me uncomfortable, I'd probably skip the events.