Even still, MLB can still play at one, albeit they get slammed if Brave gets guarded, and Japan has a Tsuku list that, in theory, is going to rock (although it really just looks like they added Tsuku to Goddess.dek). And Pendragon makes Royals have some kind of semi-viable option.

Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:Even still, MLB can still play at one, albeit they get slammed if Brave gets guarded, and Japan has a Tsuku list that, in theory, is going to rock (although it really just looks like they added Tsuku to Goddess.dek). And Pendragon makes Royals have some kind of semi-viable option.

As the dust settles, this list looks completely fine.

Its funny because I posted that list just recently, lol.

_________________

The great Hero, Golden Ryan! I will make the world kiss my boots, remember this.

Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:Even still, MLB can still play at one, albeit they get slammed if Brave gets guarded, and Japan has a Tsuku list that, in theory, is going to rock (although it really just looks like they added Tsuku to Goddess.dek). And Pendragon makes Royals have some kind of semi-viable option.

As the dust settles, this list looks completely fine.

Its funny because I posted that list just recently, lol.

Seems like it works, regardless. I'll test it when I'm not swamped with paperwork.

If Tsuku's getting used in the same kind of deck she was in before, but with CEO as the cover option, I don't really see how that defines her as dead. Sure, you can't use her as the /only/ thing, but it's not like the card's entirely useless.

Let's say Hieratics were already hit, but Gishki were not. Gishki use Hieratics as an engine, but in no way are they Hieratics. It's a hybrid deck, not Hieratic.dek. Hieratics are pretty damn dead, but that doesn't mean they don't have a niche outside to be used by other decks that can benefit from using them as an engine.

Let's say Hieratics were already hit, but Gishki were not. Gishki use Hieratics as an engine, but in no way are they Hieratics. It's a hybrid deck, not Hieratic.dek. Hieratics are pretty damn dead, but that doesn't mean they don't have a niche outside to be used by other decks that can benefit from using them as an engine.

Yuzuru Otonashi wrote:Thus, Tsukuyomi.dek is dead, like Chris said. The line can still be used as an Engine for somewhat consistent, powerful, +0 riding, with a hopeful +2 at the end of it, but that's all it is now.

tl;dr Tsukuyomi.dek is dead, Tsukuyomi the Engine is still thinking it can.

As is the Tsukuyomi concept, with that decklist.

On another laughable community note, never go to Facebook for anything ever.

I...have and had a lot of things to say about the restricted list, but as most of them have gone up on other sites already it just feels like I'm repeating myself.

The new model for Tsukuyomi does work as Amaterasu support if you want CEO's megablast as an option, since Inaba ties back to both Tsuku and the new Goddess crossride, but if you're looking to focus solely on Goddess of the Sun then you might instead accept LuLu as a default FVG because of her guaranteed +2 versus Ichibyoshi's sometimes-on sometimes-off increase in advantage. The Tsukuyomi fusion feels more coherent as a strategy, but I think we'd need to try mirror match testing on whether LuLu's guaranteed extra card and access to Silent Tom or Godhawk-Tsuku's soul support with Tagitsuhime is more beneficial to the Goddess deck.

I feel that the fact that Barcgal and his restriction was accepted without controversy compared to the various reactions to the new list does show that this is not necessarily a needed adjustment to the game. How many of us were calling out for Tsukuyomi and Alfred to be restricted before this? Has anyone ever actually called these two cards broken? I don't think that being able to run Tsuku at four is a bad thing, Tanaka-type decks are innovation at work and this strategy keeps an old deck contemporary. The fact that every first-place national championship deck has now been made unusable...the way that this new list works, it seems that Bushiroad is just going to restrict whatever makes it to the championship finals from now on, to make it impossible for any deck from a previous year to top in the following ones.

I consider assuming a massive, ever-changing restricted list to be inevitable the wrong attitude. It's not an organic evolution of the game rules. One of the unique points about Cardfight is that up to now, there hasn't been a real "restricted" list. The game balance was praised for this reason, and I think my sister described it best when she asked me why these cards weren't just not printed in the first place. The institution of heavy restrictions means that in the future, we could be headed towards a similar situation to the previous Big 3 card games, where you're playing an entirely different game every four months because of the new restricted list or set rotation. And it's doubtful that the new list won't eventually come to the EN scene, considering that the Barcgal restriction that for so long seemed to not be coming did finally enter into our format. Would we be complaining if the list were instead;

Majesty Lord Blaster

Wingal Brave

Lizard Soldier Conroe

Dragonic Overlord The End

While on one hand it's good that Bushi pays attention to the pro scene, on the other I can't rationalize sacrificing the average fighters that are doing this for fun as the right way to go about it. These restrictions apply at the shop level, so it's not like they're unaffected by the restricted list. And if shops don't obey the restricted list so that these players can participate, that only goes further to highlight the sentiment of it as illegitimate. My deck isn't personally affected by this, but I don't like the idea of my friends eventually being excluded from using the decks that they put so much time and money into designing, and I think it sets a dangerous precedent for the future of the game to have a large number of cards restricted. What if designers start designing cards intending for them being restricted? Cardfight doesn't have an "item" or "magic" card mechanic like other games, something like Pokemon's ACE SPECs wouldn't fly the same way here. Having a restricted list also makes it difficult for new players to get into the game; Yu-Gi-Oh! by comparison is very difficult to get into because kids and adults alike don't enjoy the bureaucracy of having to memorize an everchanging lineup of illegal cards to know what of their collection is permitted in a deck. From my perspective, it's a Pandora's box that we'd be better off having not opened.

This isn't something that I think is worth quitting the game over, but it's discouraging, you know?

HiveNet wrote:Not a shock that this was coming. However, I think it's a trial thing personally. The logic some players are putting to it are atributting it to a letter sent by someone complaining about Majesty Lord Blaster, DOTE and PBO being to powerful and that they should be changed for the english edition.

I'd like to clarify with some details about this particular point before I stop, that someone is Alice, a very prolific cardfighter and writer who's been influencing the English side of the game. It's not just one letter that she wrote--Alice created a forum thread to try and convince as many people as possible to fill out a form letter and send it to Bushiroad's EN facilities, and as I recall Bushi eventually responded, saying that they forwarded the letters to the "relevant department." Currently it's unknown if this carried a concrete impact since it could be a typical company dismissal reply and if Bushi modified those cards then they'd have to modify all future crossrides, but that's the basic summary of what went down with this. It seems unlikely that her letters were the motivation behind the list though, because Bushiroad's English and Japanese divisions are managed separately and the list coincided with Eboshida Hiromi's The End deck taking the junior national title while Nakamura Seishirou's (no relation to the Nakamura Seishirou from the Winter tournaments, different kanji same reading) Majesty Lord deck became the senior national one. Alice also asked for Phantom Blaster Overlord to be restricted or modified, and that being the one deck that didn't make it to the senior or junior finals, nothing's happened to it.

Touya wrote:I...have and had a lot of things to say about the restricted list, but as most of them have gone up on other sites already it just feels like I'm repeating myself.

The new model for Tsukuyomi does work as Amaterasu support if you want CEO's megablast as an option, since Inaba ties back to both Tsuku and the new Goddess crossride, but if you're looking to focus solely on Goddess of the Sun then you might instead accept LuLu as a default FVG because of her guaranteed +2 versus Ichibyoshi's sometimes-on sometimes-off increase in advantage. The Tsukuyomi fusion feels more coherent as a strategy, but I think we'd need to try mirror match testing on whether LuLu's guaranteed extra card and access to Silent Tom or Godhawk-Tsuku's soul support with Tagitsuhime is more beneficial to the Goddess deck.

I feel that the fact that Barcgal and his restriction was accepted without controversy compared to the various reactions to the new list does show that this is not necessarily a needed adjustment to the game. How many of us were calling out for Tsukuyomi and Alfred to be restricted before this? Has anyone ever actually called these two cards broken? I don't think that being able to run Tsuku at four is a bad thing, Tanaka-type decks are innovation at work and this strategy keeps an old deck contemporary. The fact that every first-place national championship deck has now been made unusable...the way that this new list works, it seems that Bushiroad is just going to restrict whatever makes it to the championship finals from now on, to make it impossible for any deck from a previous year to top in the following ones.

I consider assuming a massive, ever-changing restricted list to be inevitable the wrong attitude. It's not an organic evolution of the game rules. One of the unique points about Cardfight is that up to now, there hasn't been a real "restricted" list. The game balance was praised for this reason, and I think my sister described it best when she asked me why these cards weren't just not printed in the first place. The institution of heavy restrictions means that in the future, we could be headed towards a similar situation to the previous Big 3 card games, where you're playing an entirely different game every four months because of the new restricted list or set rotation. And it's doubtful that the new list won't eventually come to the EN scene, considering that the Barcgal restriction that for so long seemed to not be coming did finally enter into our format. Would we be complaining if the list were instead;

Majesty Lord Blaster

Wingal Brave

Lizard Soldier Conroe

Dragonic Overlord The End

While on one hand it's good that Bushi pays attention to the pro scene, on the other I can't rationalize sacrificing the average fighters that are doing this for fun as the right way to go about it. These restrictions apply at the shop level, so it's not like they're unaffected by the restricted list. And if shops don't obey the restricted list so that these players can participate, that only goes further to highlight the sentiment of it as illegitimate. My deck isn't personally affected by this, but I don't like the idea of my friends eventually being excluded from using the decks that they put so much time and money into designing, and I think it sets a dangerous precedent for the future of the game to have a large number of cards restricted. What if designers start designing cards intending for them being restricted? Cardfight doesn't have an "item" or "magic" card mechanic like other games, something like Pokemon's ACE SPECs wouldn't fly the same way here. Having a restricted list also makes it difficult for new players to get into the game; Yu-Gi-Oh! by comparison is very difficult to get into because kids and adults alike don't enjoy the bureaucracy of having to memorize an everchanging lineup of illegal cards to know what of their collection is permitted in a deck. From my perspective, it's a Pandora's box that we'd be better off having not opened.

This isn't something that I think is worth quitting the game over, but it's discouraging, you know?

HiveNet wrote:Not a shock that this was coming. However, I think it's a trial thing personally. The logic some players are putting to it are atributting it to a letter sent by someone complaining about Majesty Lord Blaster, DOTE and PBO being to powerful and that they should be changed for the english edition.

I'd like to clarify with some details about this particular point before I stop, that someone is Alice, a very prolific cardfighter and writer who's been influencing the English side of the game. It's not just one letter that she wrote--Alice created a forum thread to try and convince as many people as possible to fill out a form letter and send it to Bushiroad's EN facilities, and as I recall Bushi eventually responded, saying that they forwarded the letters to the "relevant department." Currently it's unknown if this carried a concrete impact since it could be a typical company dismissal reply and if Bushi modified those cards then they'd have to modify all future crossrides, but that's the basic summary of what went down with this. It seems unlikely that her letters were the motivation behind the list though, because Bushiroad's English and Japanese divisions are managed separately and the list coincided with Eboshida Hiromi's The End deck taking the junior national title while Nakamura Seishirou's (no relation to the Nakamura Seishirou from the Winter tournaments, different kanji same reading) Majesty Lord deck became the senior national one. Alice also asked for Phantom Blaster Overlord to be restricted or modified, and that being the one deck that didn't make it to the senior or junior finals, nothing's happened to it.

My impression is that PBO's not going to get hit, since it's not as frightening per se as Ji Enddo and MLB.

You're honestly right about Tsuku and Alfred though. I've been spending a lot of today actually musing over these changes, and in truth, even if the deck was headed to Japan, this was, in general, a reaction to BT05's continued dominance that seemed to overstep its boundaries by hitting stuff like the aforementioned cards in an effort to rebalance "the top four decks in the meta."

In reality, I've slowly started to change my mind about the Alfred ban. As prominent as Alfred Paladins is, it seems a bit preemptive to take the deck that was a counter to the crossrides out of the picture. That doesn't necessarily guarantee that Alfred will do as well against the decks coming out BT09-onward. Same for Tsuku.

I'm sure at this point that, regardless of how hilarious the comments are, Alfred and Tsuku's bans will find some sort of edits coming their way, based on what Doctor O's telling us.

I pretty much agree with everything Touya said except for the point about the banlist plausibly being Wingal Brave, MLB, Conroe and DOTE.

Bushi seem to be reacting very irrationally to there being these top decks that they designed to be the top decks, and it's not healthy for the game at all, especially if the earlier mentioned plausible philosophy being "The deck only ran 4 Grade 3s which is intuitively wrong for the game."

Instead of just outright banning the best decks, just allow them to be the best decks. They're not grossly overpowered. Personally, I never sit the opposite side of DOTE of MLB and think "Oh, it's this deck again, better scoop up my cards." They actually take a well-skilled pilot to play optimally and an even better build to play out perfectly every game, to the point where smart plays and almost any clan can feasibly best them. That's not the sign of a "broken" deck in the slightest.

They also don't seem to be withholding any of the power creep they're so against. Did they seriously announce these changes after just spoiling Glorious Maelstrom? Under what pretences did they think they'd make sense compared to what is likely going to be the strongest cross-ride and the actual groan-inducer of the format. It makes no sense to ban MLB and DOTE (Tsuku and Alfred don't even compare, honestly) right before releasing such a f***-up of card design, that rivals them without even trying, let alone being far stronger than both Tsuku and Alfred offensively, heck it makes Silent Tom look tame.

What they should've done is wait for the game to evolve from BT09/10 and then decide whether certain decks are too powerful, and then realise "Hey, we can have a tier 1 dominated by these certain decks." There's a reason every other game lets that happen. It's because it's natural for there to be best decks in card games by sheer virtue of how they're designed. Trying to ban tier 1 over and over again (especially in the manner Bushiroad are doing it, I mean seriously you can only have 2 of x cards in your deck? Why not just limit each card to 1 or something?) just leads to confusion and people lack faith in the game itself.

Eh, pretty much said everything I wanted to.

_________________Just call me Chris

"It's easy to believe you're a god when you're twice as powerful as everyone else."

To give an update on the situation, Tokyo happened eleven days after the Osaka but reports didn't go out until the 12th so communication between those that went to Osaka and those that went to Tokyo was at a minimum. One four-card Blaster deck did show up in the ranks, so with at least three unique instances of it topping we're probably gonna see this rise in popularity among people who don't jump to Jewel Knights, but even more interesting is this Murakumo deck;

Not to derail the thread with trio fight talk or anything, but it's pretty interesting that this is all coming out of the new restricted format. People are deliberately trying to be the next Tsukuyomi.

In truth, I'm curious as to whether people are perhaps criticizing the old numbers of 7/8 g3s in an attempt to demonstrate the potency of ride chains along with their minor support, specifically to avoid misriding (as risky as it is to play that way). These have basically shown how remotely successful that concept appears to be, and capitalizes on having lots of guard/search options for the sake of maintaining that 12-crit beat.

My second interest is in how Bushi's going to respond to all this...do they slap the children for backtalking, or do they reconsider their changes?...