If F9 9210 is in the fact the airframe fitted with the higher thrust engines. Assuming all goes well with the test flights we should be hearing something in the form of a formal route announcement for TTN-DEN in the not too distant future.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 1):If F9 9210 is in the fact the airframe fitted with the higher thrust engines. Assuming all goes well with the test flights we should be hearing something in the form of a formal route announcement for TTN-DEN in the not too distant future.

It's my understanding that it was a repo. I was told FLL-TTN had been cancelled that evening (maintenance) and they needed an aircraft for the TTN flights the following morning.

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):It's my understanding that it was a repo. I was told FLL-TTN had been cancelled that evening (maintenance) and they needed an aircraft for the TTN flights the following morning.

Damn, That would explain the Thursday overnight flight F9 9209 DEN-TTN 1158p 501a
(Our NIMBY friends in Bucks County must have been thrilled)

Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details

In the curiosity department does anyone know what the max weight limit allowed or what weight limit F9 has established it can depart safely from TTN for DEN. (pax, fuel, luggage) It seems they would start flying it half full or within the weight safety perimeters for no other reason than to get the flight out there for the flying public to consider.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 6):It seems they would start flying it half full or within the weight safety perimeters for no other reason than to get the flight out there for the flying public to consider.

Only if F9 has established that it could atleast break even on the flight, even then they wouldn't want to waste an airplane not making money. If they thought they could make money on just the weight restricted load they'd have done it already.

Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 7):Only if F9 has established that it could atleast break even on the flight,

A lot of businesses take losses in the wonderful world know as marketing. Probably not the best example but many big box grocery stores with gas stations take losses at the fuel pumps in hopes lower prices will bring people into their store. Marketing is a strange bedfellow

F9 knows what their breakeven point is. Even if it is a small loss it might be worth putting the flight out their for brand recognition. I've been told a flight gets cheaper the longer the duration.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 8):F9 knows what their breakeven point is. Even if it is a small loss it might be worth putting the flight out their for brand recognition. I've been told a flight gets cheaper the longer the duration.

Hmm..maybe Fly from Trenton to 50+ destinations in the US, Canada, Mexico and Costa Rica sounds good. We'll see, I'd love to have a TTN-DEN flight, but I honestly think they would have done it already. Plus F9 isnt exactly hurting for business at TTN, as parking will tell you.

Though I was told by a flight attendant that they would add Denver in November after the service suspension. I'm not exactly confident in that especially since summer was the better time of the year for PHL-DEN.

[Edited 2013-05-26 19:37:46]

Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 9):Hmm..maybe Fly from Trenton to 50+ destinations in the US, Canada, Mexico and Costa Rica sounds good

DEN to fifty is a stretch. TTN-DEN citing a "nature of the beast" is a no-brainer

Although I loved the time I spent in San Jose, Costa Rica; my cold bones could live there. Me thinks TTN- Saint Lucia (I could live there too) would be a seasonal snowbird destination F9 would want to consider.

I'm also intrigued about the potential of Gitmo if it closes as reported in the news lately. There is a lot infrastructure in place which would otherwise go abandoned. Forward looking I think Gitmo is the first step to opening Cuba to U.S. travel.

Supposedly (Facebook) there will be a schedule extension this coming week-end (Sunday) through to early January, so we should start to get some idea of the plans for TTN for the winter.

As it stands now, TTN has met all the various "tests" with pretty much flying colours, but the question is - what happens now, and, especially, winter?

At the moment, based on what's available on the website, they're planning to bring back everything after the runway hiatus, with some reduction in frequency, but I guess that could change. I'm slightly surprised. I'm intrigued to see how CMH will do in mid-winter, even at 2 x weekly.

I assume some of the frequency reduction will change, to Florida, especially, because the present post-hiatus booking is only for one week in early November and I guess they'll ramp Florida back up a bit by the end of that month.

But will they add anything new? Assuming the terminal remodelling goes ahead, they'll have three "gates" and more space, and if they stick with the frequency reductions, they'll have some some spare aircraft time, but it is a good idea to add for winter - except to Florida?

CVG got excited about the idea of more service from Frontier but all CEO Siegel would say is that IF they do add anything it would be to ILG or TTN. I like the idea of TTN-BNA - but again would they do that in winter?

I'm intrigued about Florida, too. Are the four destinations it, or are they considering, say, PBI - or even JAX? Mostly, I'd like to see TTN-NAS, but I'm not holding my breath.

If they are going to add any new cities, I doubt they'll do so with the schedule extension, I assume they'll announce them separately, later, but at least we should get a few clues from the extension.

No I think it will still be 2. The additional gate, will likely be an actual physical one, meaning a door to the tarmac so that it will be possible to board 2 aircraft at the same time. The original gate will be Gate 1 which will lead off to the left to the hardstand that currently serves as the secondary arrival gate and Gate 2 will be the door that currently serves as the entrance to arrivals area that goes into the baggage claim. The baggage claim area will be redone a bit into a waiting area, probably with those bus station seats that everyone seems to like so much. And Gate 2 will be directed to what is currently used as the gate 1 hardstand. F9 might change its schedule so that it is using both gates frequently so that it doesn't leave a hole open for lets say Alleigant to dip its toe into the water at TTN. Leaving only undesirable times for leisure pax like early morning 6-7am open.

Also having 2 gates and boarding two flights at a time will likely lead to TTN or F9 buying inexpensive gate signs showing flight number time and destination for behind the podiums

[Edited 2013-05-30 19:01:15]

Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 15):No I think it will still be 2. The additional gate, will likely be an actual physical one, meaning a door to the tarmac so that it will be possible to board 2 aircraft at the same time.

They said three gates at the last Freeholders meeting, so I'll stick with that - however you want to define "gate.".

The number of E190's flying for Frontier continues to reduce. As of 9/9, there will be no more E190 departures ex-DEN.

I believe 2 x E190 will remain, flying the pro-rate DCA stuff, but I don't know what happens to those Republic DCA slots after separation.

I'm not sorry to see the E190's go - it's tough to make money with them in an LCC model and with fuel at these present prices. I know passengers like them, but they are maintenance hogs, as JetBlue indicates:

Additionally, in the first quarter, JetBlue’s maintenance and repair costs continued to grow at high rates driven by its Embraer 190 aircraft fleet.

The meltdown of the E190's at DEN last Christmas caused numerous flight cancellations and a lot of unhappy passengers.

It is the intention that Frontier become an all-Airbus airline, which I think is a great idea, but - there is a "but."

That all-Airbus decision was made before TTN, which, because of the runway, is limited to shorter routes. Yes, the A319's can handle all of them, but that raises another question.

People have been scratching their heads about that unresolved (to my knowledge) Republic order for the C Series. They were originally ordered for Frontier, but that went the way of all flesh with the all-Airbus decision.

And I wonder - only wonder - if that will change? Is there a place for a small fleet of C Series - at TTN? It might open up some routes for which the A319, is too much plane but then the question is - if they're not dense enough for the A319, are they worth flying at all?

JetBlue seems to think so by keeping the E190's on less dense routes, but JetBlue is no ULCC.

So I dunno. I don't know enough about the economics of the C Series or the economic implications of a two-type fleet and I have no information that separated Frontier would even consider the C Series.

I would love to know how Republic will resolve that C Series order, though.

Quoting mariner (Reply 23):And I wonder - only wonder - if that will change? Is there a place for a small fleet of C Series - at TTN? It might open up some routes for which the A319, is too much plane but then the question is - if they're not dense enough for the A319, are they worth flying at all?

To borrow your phrase for a second, I'm no tech-wallah but a CS100 (according to wiki) can take off at MTOW in only 4800ft. And has a range of 2900 Nautical Miles. Which means a CS100 could fly anywhere in the country with 108 pax (with mixed 36" pitch Stretch and 32" Regular class and a 19" width). But I don't know if a 2 plane system would be good for costs. However that being said, it would allow F9 to go into airports with smaller runways and still be able to go anywhere in the country with a decent amount of pax. That being said. Can a A319 perform similiarly with a lighter pax load? Other questions are does the c-series have lower operating costs then a A319 that is weight restricted? According to wiki, "Bombardier claims the Cseries will burn 20% less fuel per trip than these competitors." which include the A318/A319

Quoting mariner (Reply 23):I'm not sorry to see the E190's go - it's tough to make money with them in an LCC model and with fuel at these present prices. I know passengers like them, but they are maintenance hogs, as JetBlue indicates:

You almost have to think decisions made in the airline biz have an approximate life span of six months or until the next. CEO comes aboard (whichever comes first) What I often coined as suggestion box ideas. Long term planning goes out the window.

The planning and capital acquisition folks must be pulling their hair out on the sub fleet issue.. First the Q's and now the E190's. With everybody trying to copy everybody else.

On the heels of MKE and MCI and the other micro focus cities or experiments . F9 appears to have found a niche at TTN or is this going to change again when the new investment team comes aboard. We can only hope some rational long term thinking is in the pipeline.

Both Aa1 and Aa2 remain in the high category neither are Prime. If Trenton were a large metropolis; NYC, LA, Chicago etc I'd be more concerned. I liken this to a be weary alert which they should be anyways with or without any lowering of their credit rating.

As it relates to TTN they have a proposed funding source in the pipeline in the new PFC application they are seeking federal approval for.

"The freeholders want to set a limit of $10 per day to park at the airport, but Hughes said he needs the upper end of the range to be $12"

The airport authority should to be mindful of of the adage too much too soon with the potential PFC fee in the revenue pipeline. Medium airports including BNA airport charge $8 for the lowest tier of parking which they refer to as overflow parking with a $1 coupon for the frugal who wish to redeem it. In my mind TTN parking lots mimics overs-flow which is a lot of asphalt which requires up to 15 minutes of waiting and a short shuttle bus ride to the terminal.

A couple of interesting things came out of the Frontier Open Day (with A320) at ILG - they're looking to change the name of the airport officially - hopefully, to something closer to Frontier's Wilmington/Philadelphia Area?:

"The airport, run by the Delaware River and Bay Authority, is currently named New Castle Airport. But for the purposes of Frontier%u2019s operations, it will be called New Castle%u2019s Wilmington/Philadelphia Airport. Airport director Stephen Williams said the administration is studying a more permanent branding change for the facility."

But this is the TTN thread, and among other things, Daniel Shurz said that DEN may be probably the strongest market out of ILG:

We're definitely reaching our expectations," said Shurz. "We've been very happy with what we've seen, great response. I think Denver has been the strongest of the markets but all of the markets look good."

Which raises, yet again, the question of TTN-DEN. If they don't have a plane that could do it, I wonder to what extent they could connect intermediate markets - I know they offer TTN-MDW-DEN but the timing of the return isn't the best, leaving DEN too early for connections from the west.

TTN-ATL-DEN feels a bit out of the way, but I wonder about TTN-CLE-DEN or TTN-CVG-DEN, since both CVG and CLE are doing so well.

And since Frontier is adding flights to DEN-BKG for that difficult market, the Fall:

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):Which raises, yet again, the question of TTN-DEN. If they don't have a plane that could do it, I wonder to what extent they could connect intermediate markets - I know they offer TTN-MDW-DEN but the timing of the return isn't the best, leaving DEN too early for connections from the west.

Starting after the November relaunch of service, DEN-TTN will operate as F9 916 DEN 300pm TTN 940pm 1 (MDW)

TTN-DEN will be operated by another aircraft as F9 907 TTN 410pm DEN 728pm 1 (MDW).

While this solved the connection problem it still makes connections in DEN a PIA. Who wants to add 1:00 on the outbound and 40 minutes on the inbound vs nonstop PHL-DEN on US? That doesn't even factor in the fact that you have to connect in DEN to get to your final destination. If DEN is your final destination then ok but if your connecting its a bit much. I wonder if F9 would add a DEN-TTN nonstop in the summer westbound would have to be stop in MDW but they could do a nonstop eastbound.

Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details

Possibly a seasonal reduction. This is a fairly steep; one or more of WN daily non-stops between the DEN-PHL city pair being discontinued. UA also publishes a smaller reduction in their DEN-PHL flight schedule.

This makes me think F9DEN-TTN service; be it one-stop and less than daily may be having a small effect in that fewer pax from the greater Trenton/Princeton area are flying from PHL

A true test will be comparing TTN-MCO and other Florida markets across the same seasonal timeline with other carries who fly from PHL and EWR to Florida.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 43):is makes me think F9DEN-TTN service; be it one-stop and less than daily may be having a small effect in that fewer pax from the greater Trenton/Princeton area are flying from PHL

No doubt there will be some reductions. The planner in me can't help thinking about the TTN closure for about 2.5 months for construction/rehab/updates.

I have a hunch the region will be welcome F9 back with open arms and be eager to fly again when the airport reopens in November.

I'll go as far as prognosticating flyers who can will delay their trips until TTN reopens in lieu of having to travel to PHL or EWR first across the maintenance period. We also have the busy Thanksgiving and Christmas fly times.

These will be the first holiday travel periods for TTN with more than just FL service, it should be interesting.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 46):I'll go as far as prognosticating flyers who can will delay their trips until TTN reopens in lieu of having to travel to PHL or EWR first across the maintenance period

There will probably be some people who might due that I think mostly the people whose orginal dates are in Mid to Late October though. There should be some decent deals to be had for the first 2 weeks of November that they are open as we haven't gotten to the Holiday yet.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 46):The planner in me can't help thinking about the TTN closure for about 2.5 months for construction/rehab/updates.

I'll be trying to get what pictures I can of the contruction and the rehab as its going on. I should be able to get shots of the parking lot and perhaps some of the EMAS install at the beginning of runway 6 (24 does not have a good place to park). If I'm lucky maybe I'll get some shots of the outside of the modular baggage claim.

Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 46):No doubt there will be some reductions. The planner in me can't help thinking about the TTN closure for about 2.5 months for construction/rehab/updates.

I know that, quite obviously, the closure of the airport this fall will definitely reduce traffic out of TTN. However, I meant to say that DEN-TTN pax traffic (1-stop, or possibly eventually nonstop) during the fall/winter months in general will probably see a drop, as does almost anything DEN/U.S. Northeast. Just guesstimating a ratio here..... if there are about 55 pax in fall/winter, I would guess 100 pax spring/summer. That's how much of a drop off I see when looking at DOT numbers during quarters when I see DEN-U.S Northeast destinations. And as for TTN taking some pax away from PHL or EWR...... I could see some, maybe a handful or two, but I think that probably not enough to ring a bell for anyone.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 47):There should be some decent deals to be had for the first 2 weeks of November that they are open as we haven't gotten to the Holiday yet.

It's good that at least schedule-wise, if things go accordingly, F9 will be able to get the seasonal holiday traffic. At least those are some the busiest air travel day of the year.

There's always the chance that there simply isn't enough traffic to support all of them but we won't know until we get there.

Meanwhile, I've been surprised at some of the results so far - that TTN-ATL may be the leader of the non-Florida pack, for example.

But then I'm also surprised that DEN-ATL - which was reduced to 1 x daily when the aircraft were leaving the fleet - goes back up to 2 x daily most days in September.

I guess they're expecting some good things during Thanksgiving - TTN-DTW goes up to daily for just that week and MDW gets a second flight on the Wednesday - but the killer months may be January and February and we don't have the schedule for those yet. I'm still scratching my head about CMH, though.

However, they're already flown TTN-Florida in winter, and we know how excellent those results were. So while it's still too early to say that TTN is a complete success, it's well on the way.

It's much, much too early to say the same of ILG, but the omens and portents are good. All the anecdotal evidence is that the aircraft are full so it seems to be off to a good start, with, predictably, ILG-DEN as the leader of the pack. I guess Florida is booking well because they've added another route (RSW) already.

It's a similar test though - what happens to the non-Florida routes in deep winter? I guess ILG-MDW will be okay, but I don't know about IAH, I can't guess at that - winter - market.

If it does work, as I now expect and however adjusted, it's a neat double to pull off, two unserved and disregarded airports with a track record of failure being turned around.

So - I ask myself - can they do it again?

Now that Frontier has a presence in the northeast, the gaping hole in the route map is New England, so that's where I;d be looking.

BOS is the "big city", but there's a lot of competition, some would say it is LCC saturated and JetBlue is Massport's darling. MHT and PVD are both possible, but, again, there is the competition factor which doesn't exist at TTN and ILG. I suppose ORH was a possible until JetBlue jumped on the Florida routes.

So I'd be taking a look at history and the much reviled Skybus and I'd be looking at PSM - Portsmouth, NH - where Skybus achieved some of its highest loads (north of 85%) on the Florida routes. So winter could work.

Having lived close to there, I know the area quite well, and while Portsmouth itself is a small, but bustling naval city, it is close to some of the most desirable (summer) areas of the US, both to the south, Boston and Cape Cod, the middle - the gorgeous mountains of New Hampshire - and to the north, the southern coast of Maine, which, for centuries, has been a summer vacation relief for the wealthy of sweltering Atlanta - and South generally. And Texas.

Quoting mariner (Reply 49):I'd be looking at PSM - Portsmouth, NH - where Skybus achieved some of its highest loads (north of 85%) on the Florida routes. So winter could work.

PSM would be interesting addition; roughly 35 miles south of PWM on the NH/ME state line. You have the Navy submarine seaport there so there would be some military traffic. Me and dad actually lodged and ate dinner one night outside of Naval Station in Portsmouth last August on our week long trek through Maine.

Seasonally you have the little tourism sports along Maine coastal route 1. There were quite a few Massachusetts license plates which lead me to believe people were flying into BOS and renting cars and driving up which I thought was foolish because renting a car in MA (the greater BOS area) is almost double that of PVD, MHT and PWM. We flew into PVD rented a car and drove the three hours to the NH/ME state line.

We saw quite a bit of aviation traffic mostly RJ landing at PWM. I remember seeing US, B6 from JFK, FL from MDW and DL from ATL landing or taking off. There names or tail emblems were readable form the ground. The inbound flights would make a final turn over PWM waterfront and tourist foodie area to line up with the runway what I calculated to be roughly four miles away using my old position angle skills.

Quoting point2point (Reply 45):Seasonal..... DEN-northeast U.S. pax traffic seems to drop off a cliff during the winter months, even if a remarkable ski season is happening in Colorado.

Remember Den is such an incredible connection city now for Southwest, United and Frontier its hard to compare anything to summer when all flights are packed, but I think this is more WN loosing intereest in PHL and its really the dead season before the masses really fly in. November and December ski traffic is very very low to SLC and DEN any ski airport until really literally right before Christmas. Too risky a time you need a deep base to open alot of the mountains and its too early there is a reason why the masses stay away till late December. Christmas is very early in the ski season and even that is risky, the season is really just starting then. Traffic in Jan, Feb, March, even the first week of April is not light at all from the Northeast at all to DEN, its huge!

The northeast is a hot bed of skiiers easily the single largest population of them in the USA. A huge population in NJ, VT, MA, NY, PA live very close to ski resorts and literally grow up skiing and travel out west. The amount of people in NJ and NY who do after school programs is incredible, they all make out west eventually just not until the prime season which November and most of December is not.