Possible Development in Youcef Nadarkhani Case (6073)

Vatican and international diplomatic efforts may have delayed execution for minister who refused to recant Christianity.

Behind-the-scene efforts by the Holy See, among others, may be helping Youcef Nadarkhani, the Iranian Christian pastor who was tried for abandoning his Islamic faith.

“As is usual in these situations,” the Holy See has been communicating with “the Iranian authorities through diplomatic channels,” Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, director of the Vatican Press Office, told the Register early this week.

Father Lombardi did not offer any details of the Holy See’s efforts.

Iran’s state media reported Oct. 11 that the case of Nadarkhani, a pastor of the Protestant evangelical Church of Iran who was arrested in 2009 and sentenced to death in 2010, would go back to the lower court for re-evaluation.

Nadarkhani, a 32-year-old father of two who converted from Islam to Christianity at the age of 19, was arrested after complaining to authorities that his son was forced to read the Quran at school.

Fears that Nadarkhani would be executed for apostasy in the very near future escalated in late September, after the court asked him to disavow his Christian faith on three occasions and he flatly refused.

“The judge kept asking my client to say, ‘I have renounced Christianity, and I recognize Islam as rescinder of all other regions’; and he kept saying, ‘I won’t say that,’” Nadarkhani’s lawyer, Mohammed Ali Dadkhah, told the International Campaign for Human Rights in Iran.

Following condemnations from President Barack Obama and other world leaders, Iranian officials said Oct. 10 that they would allow Ayatollah Al Khamenei, Iran’s spiritual leader and highest authority, to decide whether Nadarkhani would live or die.

The next day, the Iranian Supreme Court ordered the lower court to re-examine the case, citing insufficient research.

In an interview with Fox News, Jordan Sekulow, executive director of the Washington, D.C.-based American Center for Law and Justice, said the latest development appears be a sign that the international campaign on the Christian’s behalf is working.

“Based on these reports, Pastor Youcef is alive, and we have reached the highest level of Iranian government. I don’t believe this would’ve ever reached the level of Khamenei without the media attention and outpouring of support we’ve seen.”

Growing Threat

Hadi Ghaemi, executive director of the International Campaign for Human Rights in Iran, concurred that the Iranian government may finally be responding to intense international pressure.

Ghaemi noted that, just last week, an Iranian official said that Nadarkhani was convicted of “rape, conspiracy and Zionism” and not apostasy.

These accusations “are completely baseless and part of a propaganda campaign to deflect attention from the apostasy charges. They have no judicial basis and have never come up in court; and no such charges have been filed,” Ghaemi said.

The human-rights activist said the Iranian government, which “rules by imposing a very selective and hard-line interpretation of Shi’a Islam” is prosecuting Nadarkhani, and members of other religious minorities, because “conversion to other faiths, including Christianity, is on the rise, and the state wants to put an end to this trend by making an example of Nadarkhani.”

Ghaemi firmly believes that the only thing standing between the pastor and the executioner’s chair “is a sustained international protest, which has started with a number of countries making a strong protest.”

At this stage, he continued, “what can save his life is for the Vatican and the Pope to come forward and call for his release, as well as U.N. human-rights officials, including Navi Pillay and U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki Moon. Sustained international protests and attention is the most likely hope for saving Nadarkhani’s life.”

Like Christians and other minority religious groups throughout much of the Muslim world, Iran’s minority communities — including up to 300,000 Christians and 300,000 Baha’i — face the growing threat of fundamentalist Islam.

In a column in the Kansas City Star, Jennifer Marshall, director of the DeVos Center for Religion and Civil Society at The Heritage Foundation, said the “increasing persecution” of Christians in the Middle East and their resulting emigration prompted the Catholic archbishop of Baghdad and other leaders to wonder “whether brutal religious oppression could extinguish Christianity in the region altogether.”

The Iranian government, Marshall said, seems determined to do just that. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, notes the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, “has called for an end to the development of Christianity in Iran.”

Sekulow echoed the threat in an interview with EWTN/CNA News.

“If you are not part of the state-sanctioned Islam, a version of Shi’a Islam, then you are an enemy of the state,” Sekulow said. “This applies to Sunni Muslims, evangelical Christians; anyone who is left. You’re not seen as on the side of the country.”

Comments

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.(16)Ye shall know them by their fruits.Do men gather grapes of thrones, or figs of thistles?(17)Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.(18)A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit,neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.(19)Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.(20)WHEREFORE BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM.

Posted by William F. Folger on Saturday, Oct 15, 2011 1:48 AM (EDT):

This commenter in no way demanded anyone show “exactly repeats [of] the Biblical quote from Romans [3:8]” in the Qur’an. I simply asked that IF an equivalent exists that it be brought out. Then both Muslims and Christians would rejoice together for it would mean there is great chance to be in harmony on many issues involving avoidance of violence.
.
Sadly, it again appears that Islam has no clear equivalent of Romans 3:8
Indeed, the concept of *equivalence* almost always involves variation of expression reflecting culture, therefore *not* exact copying. Equivalence also means that non-essential auxiliary conditions, etc., built into an alleged equivalent must not void the equivalency for it is easy to have such words imply exceptions to an unconditionally binding teaching like Romans 3:8.
.
Regarding the USATODAY article, there *may* be some hope. Yet because of the ongoing boldness of nuclear-prone Iran and others allied with her, there is also serious warning not to be naïve about depending on success for the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.
.
The reasons for being cautious (not cynical) are proper, mathematical and realistic. A highly dangerous “rate problem” comes into play as nuclear proliferation radically increases. That is, can the long standing Muslim universal view of non-Muslims as not equal change *fast enough* along lines which the recently deceased and respected Muslim Dr. Fathi Osman described, to prevent certain Muslim leaders from frying whole cities of good people in a matter of seconds.
.
See “We are not remaking Islam by Dr Fathi Osman”:
.http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/news.php?item.40.98
.
Two excerpts from above interview—well worth the entire read:
“Q: Interestingly you yourself have just used the word “fundamentalist.” Do you think it is an acceptable term and does it not imply a belief that the fundamentals of Islam are violent or abhorrent?”
.
From another location….. “Muslims, for example, used to believe that they should be nice to non-Muslims, not that non-Muslims were equal, because they were not a real part of society, but existed as a supplementary component. Today we believe that everyone is equal.” End, excerpts.
.
Dr. Osman acknowledges that persuading current Imams to accept such changes can be quite difficult especially in Pakistan (which is already nuclear). He is not as upbeat as the usatoday article of 10/13/11 which presents a benign interpretation of Islam marred, however, by numerous Muslim leaders of today.
.
The depressing Math aspect comes from ratioing the “tens of millions” of peaceful Ahmadiyya Muslims estimated in the usatoday article to the total number of Muslims world-wide, estimated to be about 1.5 Billion Muslims. The ratio, if we dare to assume 50 million globally distributed Ahmadiyya Muslims, means ~ 3+ per cent “at the forefront of taking Islam back from the corruption of such “Muslim” nations.” Being realistic, that’s not much of a chance when the stakes are so astronomical.
.
With those discouraging odds, given the little time we have —WMD-wise—plus normal human resistance among many Imams, changing beliefs in a timely manner on the interpretation of Islamic scripture seems nigh impossible. Therefore all sensible people must pray for God’s blessings and success for Ahmadiyya Muslims, for only prayer and the seeking of true justice *by not violating Romans 3:8* has realistic chance to bring a good, albeit imperfect peace for a good while until the last days.
.
The name Fatima comes up in Mohammad’s family and in the Virgin Mary’s appearance at Fatima in Portugal where Muslims once ruled. Mohammed’s beloved daughter was named Fatima. There is enough to sense a God-aided solution is possible provided we do our part which goes beyond prayer.
.
All sides share in the blame for this most shaky condition of our world, including Catholics who believe in the Fatima apparitions of 1917. Fr, Robert J. Fox, long time leader of the Fatima Movement in America, wrote an article “The Fatima Apostolate lacks a social dimension”. He was trying to get people not only to pray but also to *show love* by helping those in need, by showing tolerance for others without being naïve, and by acting out good citizenship.
.
The phrase “social justice” has been used in wrong ways lately but that doesn’t stop us from using it and acting it out—properly! Now we must do *much* better, starting with the defense of new human life but not ending there—for the consequences allowed by God due to our continued lukewarmness toward Him will be woefully regretted indeed.
.
Finally let’s not blame just political Parties. The future CAN be bright IF many citizens heed the Warning in psalm 127: “Unless God builds the house, they labor in vain who build it”. Society WILL fail if we do not live and do things according to His ample guidance. Let us pray for Youcef Nadarkhani and his captors.

Posted by Kinana on Friday, Oct 14, 2011 7:21 PM (EDT):

Again, Mr McKenzie not only reads into Islam what he wants to read but also reads into comments on this blog what is not there.

If there is hatred please let him quote the words that I and the other commenters used. It should be easy to do. Mr McKenzie confuses disagreement with his opinions as hatred.

His very first comment made some bold assertions about Islam and he has refused to provide evidence for those assertions. He just repeats them. I, on the other hand have supplied quotes, examples from the life of Mohammed and historical data. Other commenters have also supplied guidance.

As to what I said about ‘virtually all Muslims’, I stand by that. This was in reference to one quote from the founder of Islam, Mohammed. The word ‘virtually’ leaves room for some Muslims to discount the Bukari hadith, but very very few Muslims do; these are called Qur’an-only-Muslims. Such Muslims are not even considered Muslims by the vast majority of Muslims. I have made a claim, which I supported with evidence, including quoting Scholars, that Islam teaches the killing of apostates. Mr McKenzie has said the opposite and not provided any evidence whatsoever! It is as if Islam is whatever Mr McKenzie says it is.

Mr McKenzie also says: that I ‘respond by claims that their beliefs are trash.’ Please, Mr McKenzie, show me where I or anyone here said that! I have simply tried to show the truth about the belief system called Islam. If I am wrong and I have misquoted Mohammed, the Qur’an and Muslims scholars please do correct me with actual evidence not just repeated assertions.

Finally, Mr McKenzie says: ‘There is much good in Islam…’ Well I, and I think all of us here, await the evidence of that claim as it pertains to the killing of apostates.

Sad. Really sad. This comments section (as most) is so filled with rage and hate. This is exactly why there is the violence in various parts of the world. You complain about me “whitewashing” the issue, while you do the same. The quotes you use are taken out of context. I can do the same with the Bible, as many others have, to prove anything I want. The Bible is also filled with texts demanding the death of people, even by God Himself. The whole Qur’an and Bible must be taken into consideration. One of you is constantly demanding that I show an quote from the Qur’an the exactly repeats the Biblical quote from Romans. I will not. Picking and choosing quotes is not the way to understand the whole truth.

One of you complains that I think I know better than the scholars, then you claim that ALL Muslims believe this or that. And you KNOW this…how?
I see SO much prejudice and hate in your words, such emotional baggage. I spoke of love of neighbor and tolerance of someone else’s sincere beliefs, and you respond by claims that their beliefs are trash.

It’s obvious that this “discussion” will lead nowhere. There is too much rage. No listening can happen here, as in most discussions on-line. The same is happening in the mid-east, no listening is possible, only rage and hate. There is much good in Islam, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, and others. I sincerely believe in Catholic Church’s teachings, but I’ll respect the others too.

Posted by Kinana on Thursday, Oct 13, 2011 7:44 PM (EDT):

Dan McKenzie says: ‘Look at the actual beliefs of the religion, not what many people actually do…’

I encourage your readers to do exactly that and not take Mr McKenzie’s (or my) word for what Islam teaches and the type of behaviour it encourages in its followers.

In that vein I urge him to follow his own advice and stop talking about particular Muslims who are peaceful people and would never support the killing of apostates by other Muslims.

Plus he is wandering off topic with his link to a Muslim website which does NOT deal with the issue of apostasy. The issue here is whether Islam condones the killing of apostates. He has not produced any evidence to demonstrate that that is not the case, only opinion and assertions.

The quote I produced above from Mohammed is from Islamic teaching that is accepted by virtually all Muslims.

Here are a few more examples:

Bukhari:V4B52N260 “Ali burnt some [former Muslims alive] and this news reached Ibn Abbas, who said, ‘Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, “Don’t punish with Allah’s Punishment.” No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, “If a Muslim discards his Islamic religion, kill him.”’”
Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17: Narrated ‘Abdullah: Allah’s Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.”
Ishaq:550 “. The reason that Allah’s Messenger ordered Andullash Bin Sad slain was because he had become a Muslim and used to write down Qur’an Revelation. Then he apostatized (rejected islam) after becoming suspicious of some verses which prophet changed after his suggestions.
Ishaq:551 The Messenger ordered Miqyas’ assassination because he became a renegade by rejecting Islam.”
If you wish let’s see how this teaching from the beginnings of Islam and founded on the Mohammed is understood today. You may recall a similar crisis in 2006 in Afghanistan over the case of Abdul Rahman who was an Afghan citizen who was arrested in February 2006 and threatened with the death penalty for converting to Christianity.

At the time a story from CNN had this to report:

Senior Muslim clerics are demanding that an Afghan man on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity be executed, warning that if the government caves in to Western pressure and frees him, they will incite people to “pull him into pieces.”...
“Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die,” said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hard-line regime was ousted in 2001….
But three Sunni preachers and a Shiite one interviewed by The Associated Press in four of Kabul’s most popular mosques said they do not believe Rahman is insane.
“He is not crazy. He went in front of the media and confessed to being a Christian,” said Hamidullah, chief cleric at Haji Yacob Mosque. “The government is scared of the international community. But the people will kill him if he is freed.”
Raoulf, who is a member of the country’s main Islamic organization, the Afghan Ulama Council, concurred. “The government is playing games. The people will not be fooled.”
“Cut off his head!” he exclaimed, sitting in a courtyard outside Herati Mosque. “We will call on the people to pull him into pieces so there’s nothing left.”
He said the only way for Rahman to survive would be for him to go into exile.
But Said Mirhossain Nasri, the top cleric at Hossainia Mosque, one of the largest Shiite places of worship in Kabul, said Rahman must not be allowed to leave the country.
“If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too,” he said. “We must set an example. ... He must be hanged.”
“We are a small country and we welcome the help the outside world is giving us. But please don’t interfere in this issue,” Nasri said. “We are Muslims and these are our beliefs. This is much more important to us than all the aid the world has given us.”—
Again, Mr McKenzie talks about Muslims as if he knows better than they do, or for that matter anyone else who can read and think, who is a real Muslim or not. He says: ‘It seems to me that REAL Muslims…would never do these violent things.’ How does he know? I would like him to produce some evidence for that assertion. As it stands now, it sounds like wishful thinking rather than based on evidence from history, current events, logic or the texts themselves.

I suggest that Mr McKenzie begin to look at the possibility that Islam is entirely different than what he thinks it is and that some people actually act differently based on what they believe to be true.

Posted by Dee on Thursday, Oct 13, 2011 7:44 PM (EDT):

When I look at that photo of this man, I see tranquility and kindness and love expressed in his face. I see Jesus in this man. I hope he won’t be a martyr.

Posted by William F. Folger on Thursday, Oct 13, 2011 6:39 PM (EDT):

Dan, nothing I’ve said accounts for your statement: “You’ve said that most Muslims are not peaceful and tolerant.” Broad-brushing all other posters is not fair. Though I cannot continue participation in this forum until tomorrow, please consider my article just below which treats Islam fairly, defends the rights of Christians and recognizes that both sides have failures in history.
.
Let us be both frank AND constructive. Why do you not address the need for the equivalent of Romans 3:8 to come either from the Qur’an directly (i.e., from one clear location if such exists) or else via contemporary Muslim leaders deciding to word such a teaching followed by its preaching world-wide to foster peace?
.
I say in my constructive article:
“What is needed between East and West is mutual forgiveness for the past—validated by granting freedom of worship in one another’s countries. That will please God and bring hope to the planet. Regarding which group has the Truth, let that come about in God’s way, as the fruit of making the peace.”
.
And elsewhere in my article:
.
“Therefore, and on an urgent basis, Muslim leaders need to be seen and heard in their extensive media, education-institutes and especially in their Mosques - to be strongly preaching how extremely selfish before Allah it is for suicide bombers to try to secure their own happiness in Eternity at the expense of *denying others their chance to make peace with God*. Nothing is more selfish before God.”
.
The very recent news re the “underwear bomber” seems to confirm that such an extremely selfish goal existed in him. So let us all take a lesson from that.
.http://www.islamdaily.net/EN/Contents.aspx?AID=3282

Posted by Dan McKenzie on Thursday, Oct 13, 2011 3:47 PM (EDT):

Your “examples” above are again all pointing to the media coverage of Islam, and the pretend Muslims. They act in ways that are definitely forbidden by the Qur’an. Take a look at this site:

Now of course, I suppose you will reject it as a pro-Islam site. But I offer it as something to read if you can have a open mind. As in the Bible, we should take things in context. So many “Christians” love to take things out of context from the Bible to prove anything they want. You’ve said that most Muslims are not peaceful and tolerant. The same is true of most Christians in my experience. Look at the actual beliefs of the religion, not what many people actually do. People kill each other over anything, Islam, Christianity, Capitalism. Communism, Unions, lines on a map, you name it. It’s the way humans are. Those who know and actually live the teachings of Christ, Mohammed, Buddha, are tolerant and loving towards others. At the same time, many who claim to adhere to any those beliefs have committed many acts of violence over the centuries.

It seems to me that REAL Muslims, Christians, or whatever, would never do these violent things. I again urge you to read the story of the Algerian monks. They are true Christians, living among neighbors who are true Muslims.

-Dan, a Catholic who also at times has been a fake one.

Posted by William F. Folger on Thursday, Oct 13, 2011 1:54 PM (EDT):

In this Age of accelerated nuclear proliferation, let all sides openly embrace God’s beautiful teaching in Romans 3:8 – ‘do no evil that good may come of it’.

God *never* wants people to accept they must do some evil because humans have considerable problems living together on planet earth. Suppose that God did need “just a little evil” – only now and then, mind you—to make things work properly overall and over time.
.
Then, Satan can rightly brag on General Judgment Day that God needed a “little of Satan’s brew” to get where God is on that Day – a Day thus rendered inglorious by Satan’s brag! IF the equivalent of Rom. 3:8 is absent in a religion or so spread out that it can be missed by radicals, God is not truly glorified because enough of its adherents will then make repeated rejections of “do no evil….” thus to preclude peace.
.
Hence the essential teaching in Rom. 3:8 is crucial to be preached by Muslims to Muslims, from their own verses, if they exist, and then strongly applied to protect “unbelievers” like Christians.
.
If such a verse does not exist in the Qur’an, then the only acceptable evidence that Islam means peace is for Islam to agree to preach publicly and in their Mosques – world-wide—the essence of Romans 3:8 drawn up in their own words which of course must avoid any undermining of the teaching so sorely needed in these times.
.
A JewishJournal article (link below) raises a serious question (spoken by an Islamic Law Professor at UCLA) in the form of “a big but” that links with the fear that Islam has no true equivalent. The lack of completeness in answering near and at the end of the article below casts doubt that there is a clear equivalent of Romans 3:8 in the Qur’an.
. http://www.jewishjournal.com/community_briefs/article/pew_poll_finds_some_us_muslims_support_suicide_bombing_20070601/

Posted by Byzcat on Thursday, Oct 13, 2011 10:30 AM (EDT):

@Dan McKenzie—you are sadly misinformed about Islam if you think it truly preaches tolerance of other religions. Please read an unbiased history of Mohammed and Islam. There you will measure the character of the man, and his followers. At it’s core, Islam is a politico-religious system that demands totalitarian control of it’s followers. Don’t be a shill for Islam. If you would like to learn more, read the “Myth of Islamic Tolerance” by Robert Spencer. That will open your eyes to the true nature of Islam.

Posted by Kinana on Thursday, Oct 13, 2011 9:50 AM (EDT):

Dan McKenzie likes to paint a rosy picture of Islam. He knows who is a Muslim and who is not a Muslim. He knows Islam better than the Muslims scholars of Iran and better than millions of other Muslims who agree that Islam calls for the killing/execution of apostates. He knows the Quran is a respecter of freedom of conscience and that millions and millions of Muslims now and in the past have just not understood it properly. Astonishing.

He will know, of course then, that the Quran teaches Muslims to respect and follow the example and sayings of Mohammed. And that Muhammad said “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him” (Bukhari 9.84.57)

Posted by Belieber on Thursday, Oct 13, 2011 12:14 AM (EDT):

@Dan McKenzie
come to my country where so called peaceful and smiling islam people live. Only small percentage of them tweeting and rally to condemn when pastors were stabbed, the big majority just didn’t and don’t care.
The big majority and goverment are silent when legal Churches are burnt and closed. They all were silent when the gov picked three innocent Christians (Tibo and friends http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabianus_Tibo) and executed them, though one high official police (a good muslim one, Gen. Oegroseno) avow those men were innocent.

I suggest you to read the whole Quran and hadiths, not by your Catholic mind, but from their perspective guided by an ulama.
When you are in my country or in any other islam countries:
Go tell a joke about Jesus, you will be still alive, and people will have good laugh.
Go tell a joke about God, people will just call you an atheist.
Go tell a joke about Muhammad pbuh, your life is in danger.

Before you call muslim people in my country is not the true muslim,I have to inform you that most western countries invite representative from my country to teach them about the peaceful Islam!! :)

Posted by Jacob S on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2011 11:42 PM (EDT):

I can’t say anything about what Islam or the Quran actually teaches, but historically the Muslim nations have pretty much always been like this. They tended to give a very limited freedom of religion to others with the specific condition that they not seek converts and not say anything against Islam, and always have viewed “apostates” this way.—
This is what I learned from my history text books way back when, and those books were not exactly biased in favor of Christianity. They actually tended to call this tolerance, which seems like a rather odd way of describing it to me.

With attacks alarmingly increasing on Christians living in Muslim lands, it is important to consider that Islam seems to have no teaching in any “stand-alone” location in the Qur’an that is equivalent to Christianity’s unconditional and universally binding Romans 3:8 – ‘do no evil that good may come from it’.
.
Even though Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani’s case is being sent back to lower courts, we ask you, Mr. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, to now help those courts show mercy by freeing Christian Pastor Nadarkhani for reasons given you by servant ambassador Peer:
.
“Greetings, Mr. Ayatollah Khamenei, Thank-you for taking the opportunity to examine the particulars in the case of a minister of the Christians who follow Abraham’s faith, pastor Youcef Nadarkhani (of course, named after Abraham’s great grandson).
.
And we welcome true descendants of father Abraham into dialogue. Abraham never killed those who had a slightly different interpretation of how God worked their lives. He only fought those who attacked him first and threatened his family. He sought peaceful coexistence with those among whom he was on his pilgrimmage.
.
My prayer to the God of our father Abraham, is that He will help you find a way to live out that expression of faith which Abraham lived out for an example for all of us to follow. And may God bless all who are “righteous in their souls” as Abraham was declared to be by God’s justice.”
.
If there is no equivalent stand-alone teaching characterized by its being free of conditions, circumstances or relationships which could induce some Muslims to think that “certain” ends CAN justify the means, then how can we trust Islam to be a reliable partner in dialogue and in peace arrangements?
.
Even if such Muslims are a relatively small per cent of the huge Islamic population, they are numerous enough to bring the worst kinds of mistreatment to Christians because the Islamic faith seems not to unequivocally command Muslims to “do no evil that good may come from it.” And so there would be *no limit* to the evil that some believers in Islam can be expected to do.
.
Anything that might be claimed to be “equivalent” as a result of some “assembly” from scattered places in the Qur’an lacks the force and clarity of a stand-alone Romans 3:8. In addition, diverse Islamic believers can dispute such an “assembled equivalent” because Islam has no world-wide central authority as does, for example, the Catholic Church via the pope.
.
If anyone truly familiar with the Qur’an knows of one or more *stand-alone* cases of equivalency with the clear & unqualified teaching in Romans 3:8, would they kindly show those verses in this article’s comment space?
.
The submitter will be assumed to be conveying that he/she has first examined their offered stand-alone verses from the Qur’an and can find no circumstances, conditions or other special mentioning in the texts which could detract from truly having a clear, unconditional, universally binding teaching for all Muslims.
.
That would be an excellent find; it would enable more peaceful dialogue and other progress to take place. Perhaps Dan McKenzie can specify at least one, from his studies of the Qur’an.

Posted by Dan McKenzie on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2011 5:37 PM (EDT):

I’m afraid you’ve fallen for the poor reporting of the media. Islam does not teach any such thing. Only of you take things out of context can the Qur’an be taken like that. It actually teaches the opposite. The media only reports that fake Muslims, giving us all the impression that this is what Islam is. Some Christians do the same, preaching hate and claiming that is what the Church teaches. Most Muslims are not at all like that. You just won’t see that in the “news” reporting.
I suggest you read “The Monks of Tibhirine”. It’ll give you a more realistic view of things.

Posted by abcd on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2011 5:13 PM (EDT):

Islam isn’t like protestantism where you pick and chose what you want. It is a complete system with hadith and other sources.
And yes islam does say apostates must be killed. So do not try to whitewash the situation. you sound like Tony Blair, next time you are going to tell us islam is a religion of peace.

Posted by Kathleen on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2011 12:55 PM (EDT):

Why does taking human life with some of these Islamic leaders think it proves anything good for their religion?

Posted by Dan McKenzie on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2011 11:23 AM (EDT):

It’s interesting that most Islamic governments do not actually practice Islam. The Qur’an does not allow intolerance of other religions, much less allow them to be killed. These governments and others that preach hate and violence are fake Muslims, much like the Westboro “Baptist” Church is a fake Christian organization along with most “Catholic” politicians. I’m a strong believer in the Catholic Church, but have been reading the Qur’an and what it teaches is a far cry from what the media reports and what many who call themselves Muslims actually preach.

Join the Discussion

We encourage a lively and honest discussion of our content. We ask that charity guide your words.
By submitting this form, you are agreeing to our discussion guidelines.
Comments are published at our discretion. We won’t publish comments that lack charity, are off topic, or are more than 400 words.
Thank you for keeping this forum thoughtful and respectful.