I have noted this weekend that a black 12mm handline has been removed from Talybont. It is of very little value, if any, however there is a principle involved.

I am aware that some clubs and individuals have a 'policy' of removing any fixed aids such as in situ ropes etc.

This will not be tolerated in mines under my control, and if anyone doesn't like this then stay out. Simple.

Any individuals identified will be:

1/ Prosecuted

2/ Individuals, and ANY CLUB involved banned from all mines under my control. This will be enforced by court order. Defy a court order and you are in contempt of court which is an arrestable offence.

3/ Individuals and ANY CLUB involved will be named on the Internet.

All Cwmystwyth mines and Upper Dinas Silica Mine is private property of companies of which I am Managing Director. All fixed aids in Cwmystwyth Lefel Fawr are the property of Shropshire Caving and Mining Club and have been authorised by me.

Talybont, Henfwlch, Temple Mine, are Welsh Government or NRW property and managed by Cave Access Ltd of which I am a director with responsibility for these mines. Parc lead Mine, Hafna, and many other on ex Foresty Wales land come under the CAL remit.

I shall shortly be undertaking a program of security marking artefacts which have potential to be stolen.

I have noted this weekend that a black 12mm handline has been removed from Talybont. It is of very little value, if any, however there is a principle involved.

I am aware that some clubs and individuals have a 'policy' of removing any fixed aids such as in situ ropes etc.

This will not be tolerated in mines under my control, and if anyone doesn't like this then stay out. Simple.

Any individuals identified will be:

1/ Prosecuted

2/ Individuals, and ANY CLUB involved banned from all mines under my control. This will be enforced by court order. Defy a court order and you are in contempt of court which is an arrestable offence.

3/ Individuals and ANY CLUB involved will be named on the Internet.

All Cwmystwyth mines and Upper Dinas Silica Mine is private property of companies of which I am Managing Director. All fixed aids in Cwmystwyth Lefel Fawr are the property of Shropshire Caving and Mining Club and have been authorised by me.

Talybont, Henfwlch, Temple Mine, are Welsh Government or NRW property and managed by Cave Access Ltd of which I am a director with responsibility for these mines. Parc lead Mine, Hafna, and many other on ex Foresty Wales land come under the CAL remit.

I shall shortly be undertaking a program of security marking artefacts which have potential to be stolen.

An afterthought. Be aware that in Wales the hills have eyes.

My attention has been drawn to a possible misinterpretation of my original posting, so, quoting myself for the purpose of clarification

"CLUB INVOLVED"

This means a club which has an official policy of removing fixed aids. Obviously its theft, and an 'official policy' of what is in effect stealing could lead to more serious charges.

Does any club actually have such a policy (eg they'd remove the Idiots Leap rope from P8 and the fixed ladders / chains in Peak Cavern)or do some clubs have an environmental clean up policy of cleaning up what they may perceive to be knackered tat that someone left in the cave 30 years ago

I think that it would be a good idea to bring this into open discussion.

A certain group of URBEX removed a lot of my rubbish from one mine, I had left it behind after a long digging project. I was grateful.I am certainly not grateful for removal of fixed aids, regularly inspected and kept in good condition.

I feel that any club that has a policy of removing fixed aids should review this as there are implications for the wider membership. If I was a member of such a club, I would feel it a matter for some concern.

Of course, such club policies may not exist. I have been told in the past (hearsay) that there are. Of course, in the event that no clubs have such a policy then there is nothing club related to worry about.

Ahh an URBEX group, that makes more sense. I did not think a caver group would remove fixed aids like that especially if its not a system they look after. Even if it was removed it's generally left somewhere where the owner can retrieve it.

Logged

Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Ahh an URBEX group, that makes more sense. I did not think a caver group would remove fixed aids like that especially if its not a system they look after. Even if it was removed it's generally left somewhere where the owner can retrieve it.

Misunderstood again. The URBEX removed rubbish, it was others who removed the fixed aids.Oh Dear.

Well rope has been removed or coiled at the top of pitches before in P8. Even with divers in the system. Doesn't seem to stop the individual contacting a university after a trip in Giants when the rigging was "dangerous". Offering to give training. I'm sure I've got the photo of a note from a subsequent visit somewhere... "I've altered your rigging... hope you don't mind".

The mind boggles how people can do this stuff with a clear conscience.

I think that people have a duty to report anything perceived as dangerous to the person or organisation responsible. In the mines I named in my original post is obvious who that is, CAL requires a permit from the website, CMT and NAL has notices in the mine etc. Also risk assessments have to be made on the ground as conditions can change underground in a short time frame.

There is also an obvious distinction between rubbish and fixed aids. Rubbish looks like empty cans and bottles, food wrappings etc, fixed aids look like rope belayed to fitted hangers, ducks look like ducks and quack etc.

Taking the bull by the horns, is there anyone on here who feels that removal of a fixed aid in apparent good condition and in a managed cave or mine is justifiable?

Bwlch-y-Plwm (spelling?) seemed to have quite a few ropes where free climbing would have done. But then I guess a one time visitor doesn't get to see all the conditions it can throw at you.

I agree that it's frustrating when fixed aids are removed. The West swirl passage ropes in Oxlow are a hilarious one. Rethreaded butterflys in the middle of a 50m rope. Yet people who have been told to derig all the ropes, blindly follow instructions without...

Bwlch-y-Plwm has some history.The land belonged to an old lady, now deceased who allowed anyone to use the mine. It became popular with the outdoor centres who installed all of the fixed aids and ropes etc. Once, these were all deliberately slashed with a craft knife or similar. This was quite a few years ago, culprits never caught, motive unknown.