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At great personal expense, Snowden has come down on the side of the rule of law.

With all due respect Henry, I agree that he is doing this at great personal expense, but that is his decision. That he is coming down on the side of the rule of law is not what I would say. He is breaking the law, and running like a coward while doing it.

That is, recognizing that that elements of the Fourth Amendment were violated on a systematic basis by the government, he revealed that violation.

I happen to agree that I don't like what this administration has done in regards to PRISM, and the meta-data collection is frightening, and possibly a high crime if the Obama administration is proven to have changed the levels to more than what the SCOTUS ruled that they can do, but Snowden's path for that properly was to go to the appropriate oversight committees and work with them, NOT flee to our adversaries in the world and reveal what damages the US like some Wiki leaks goof ball...

Snowden exposed government crimes, that make him a hero and a patriot.

I see nothing patriotic in what Snowden is doing. Just days before Obama was set to have a sit down meeting with the Chinese leader, Snowden released information that we are cyber hacking China, and collecting cell phone data. Now that wasn't meant for anything other than embarrassing the US. You think that is heroic? I sure don't.....

Comparatively, you support the criminal actions of the government. What does that make you?

I don't think that is a fair assessment.

Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.
Alexis de Tocqueville

With all due respect Henry, I agree that he is doing this at great personal expense, but that is his decision. That he is coming down on the side of the rule of law is not what I would say. He is breaking the law, and running like a coward while doing it.

I happen to agree that I don't like what this administration has done in regards to PRISM, and the meta-data collection is frightening, and possibly a high crime if the Obama administration is proven to have changed the levels to more than what the SCOTUS ruled that they can do, but Snowden's path for that properly was to go to the appropriate oversight committees and work with them, NOT flee to our adversaries in the world and reveal what damages the US like some Wiki leaks goof ball...

I see nothing patriotic in what Snowden is doing. Just days before Obama was set to have a sit down meeting with the Chinese leader, Snowden released information that we are cyber hacking China, and collecting cell phone data. Now that wasn't meant for anything other than embarrassing the US. You think that is heroic? I sure don't.....

I don't think that is a fair assessment.

I appreciate your most civil response.

Clearly, Snowden broke some sort of law or the other, no question.

But equally true is that the government has been breaking a variety of laws, and to me that far outweighs Snowden's petty offense. I would say he had a civic duty to expose the government crimes.

And apologies if I've already posted this point on the thread, but to me the proof is what happened to the other NSA whistleblower, Thomas Drake.

Drake played by the rules, went through the chain of command, and was properly indicted. Why would anybody in a similar position take that path, after Drake's case? I sure as heck would not. And look what they're doing to Manning.

Snowden did the right thing, as the government had done, and is doing, the wrong thing. Immoral and illegal are the government's actions. I applaud Manning and Snowden, and admire their courage and selflessness.

You are quite capable of understanding whatever I type whether I use punctuation or not

Don't be a moron

Yet you were apparently incapable of understanding what was clear to everyone else.

Language is just a form of communication, and language in the written form requires some knowledge of punctuation in order to clarify your message to others. Before criticizing another poster and claiming he doesn't understand language, you should have a better understanding of how it all works yourself.

With all due respect Henry, I agree that he is doing this at great personal expense, but that is his decision. That he is coming down on the side of the rule of law is not what I would say. He is breaking the law, and running like a coward while doing it.

I agree that he should have stayed in the US out of principle but would he have been able to get his message out? Odds are he would have been taken to prison and that would be the last we hear of Snowden and any messages he may have had.

I happen to agree that I don't like what this administration has done in regards to PRISM, and the meta-data collection is frightening, and possibly a high crime if the Obama administration is proven to have changed the levels to more than what the SCOTUS ruled that they can do, but Snowden's path for that properly was to go to the appropriate oversight committees and work with them, NOT flee to our adversaries in the world and reveal what damages the US like some Wiki leaks goof ball...

I felt the same way as well but now i am not as certain. I see fewer and fewer rights for Americans during this "War on Terror" but see no progress against the other side. Certainly militarily Iraq and Afghanistan were defeated, but is that the end of the war? I don't think so. You may be interested in this. http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/...we-are-saying/

I see nothing patriotic in what Snowden is doing. Just days before Obama was set to have a sit down meeting with the Chinese leader, Snowden released information that we are cyber hacking China, and collecting cell phone data. Now that wasn't meant for anything other than embarrassing the US. You think that is heroic? I sure don't.....

China knows Americans are doing this and Americans know the Chinese have been doing the same. As with the previous Wiki leaker, I don't see anything harmful coming out of this. There is nothing like the Manhattan Project on the horizon or the giving away of the names of Allied spies. It seems it's just embarrassing to the officials involved, what they might be saying behind each others backs, but apart from that it seems these things are overblown. I can't see where it will do any real harm, though i'm prepared to be proven wrong.

I agree that he should have stayed in the US out of principle but would he have been able to get his message out? Odds are he would have been taken to prison and that would be the last we hear of Snowden and any messages he may have had.

Well, we still have somewhat of a rule of law in that, he would have had to have had a trial, a lawyer, and the right to not self incriminate. However, I am not convinced that his motives are in our favor as the people...Like I said, a true hero, or patriot recognizes the risk, and accepts that risk, not hits and runs like a little bitch.

I felt the same way as well but now i am not as certain. I see fewer and fewer rights for Americans during this "War on Terror" but see no progress against the other side. Certainly militarily Iraq and Afghanistan were defeated, but is that the end of the war? I don't think so. You may be interested in this. Belmont Club » All We Are Saying …

Thanks for the article Grant, and I am not saying that I have it all figured out either. But, rather I can only give you my gut on the matter as I see it today....In the beginning of the WoT I as a conservative, I was absolute in my opposition to papers like the NYTimes releasing intel describing things like troop movements, all for the story line they wanted to pursue of GW Bush's war being ignoble. To do such they had to publish things that were confidential, and secret giving out enemies a glimpse into our actions that allowed them to adjust....In my mind, even though I can't stand what Obama is doing, I see this as the same sort of thing.

China knows Americans are doing this and Americans know the Chinese have been doing the same. As with the previous Wiki leaker, I don't see anything harmful coming out of this. There is nothing like the Manhattan Project on the horizon or the giving away of the names of Allied spies. It seems it's just embarrassing to the officials involved, what they might be saying behind each others backs, but apart from that it seems these things are overblown. I can't see where it will do any real harm, though i'm prepared to be proven wrong.

I have no interest in this affair to make pronouncements of right, or wrong in one's opinion. But I do think that all that we speculate as to what China knows, or doesn't know about what we are doing, is a matter that we can not know for certainty. At the very least Snowden gives our adversaries a propaganda tool to use against us, it is for that reason that I don't call him a hero, but rather a traitor....He is working against this countries interests in that matter, and the question must be asked, who appointed him America's conscience?

Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Well, we still have somewhat of a rule of law in that, he would have had to have had a trial, a lawyer, and the right to not self incriminate. However, I am not convinced that his motives are in our favor as the people...Like I said, a true hero, or patriot recognizes the risk, and accepts that risk, not hits and runs like a little bitch.

Thanks for the article Grant, and I am not saying that I have it all figured out either. But, rather I can only give you my gut on the matter as I see it today....In the beginning of the WoT I as a conservative, I was absolute in my opposition to papers like the NYTimes releasing intel describing things like troop movements, all for the story line they wanted to pursue of GW Bush's war being ignoble. To do such they had to publish things that were confidential, and secret giving out enemies a glimpse into our actions that allowed them to adjust....In my mind, even though I can't stand what Obama is doing, I see this as the same sort of thing.

I have no interest in this affair to make pronouncements of right, or wrong in one's opinion. But I do think that all that we speculate as to what China knows, or doesn't know about what we are doing, is a matter that we can not know for certainty. At the very least Snowden gives our adversaries a propaganda tool to use against us, it is for that reason that I don't call him a hero, but rather a traitor....He is working against this countries interests in that matter, and the question must be asked, who appointed him America's conscience?[/QUOTE]

It seems overall, J-Mac, that we share the same uncertainty in a couple of areas.. I don't have the confidence in the American government and bureaucracy that I once had but still have, despite the lest election, confidence in the American people.

Maybe Snowden is a patriot, maybe he is a traitor. I don't know. I share the same uncertainty about Snowden as I have with the US Government and the faceless bureaucracy which has become answerable, apparently, to no one.

It seems there is a need for more whistle-blowers in every bureaucracy though the government of the day always reacts in a similar fashion, and sometimes rightly so. Is this guy creating the promised 'transparency' or giving away secrets of the State, or just exposing some self serving politicians? I think I'll reserve judgement.

Well, we still have somewhat of a rule of law in that, he would have had to have had a trial, a lawyer, and the right to not self incriminate. However, I am not convinced that his motives are in our favor as the people...Like I said, a true hero, or patriot recognizes the risk, and accepts that risk, not hits and runs like a little bitch.

I am going to address this from two positions, one as a lawyer and the other as an ex-SOF team leader. As a lawyer I agree, we do live under a rule of law but the balance of power in our criminal justice system, and especially so in Federal court lies with the government. As I tried to explain in another thread regarding this issue, had Snowden remained to face the music he would have had his day in court and then gone right to prison. He would not stand a chance aside from the extremely iffy possibility of jury nullification.

Next, having been a Team Leader of an SOF mountain team, I can tell you that hit and run is a common tactic in guerilla warfare when dealing with a numerically more powerful enemy. So based on your comment, are you saying that our tactics of hit and "run like a little bitch" rather than waiting around to be caught by the overwhelming forces of the enemy made my men and I cowards and traitors? If not, why hold a common citizen with absolutely NO power or chance of success against the overwhelming might of the Federal government any less of a patriot because he "hit and ran?"

Originally Posted by j-mac

Thanks for the article Grant, and I am not saying that I have it all figured out either. But, rather I can only give you my gut on the matter as I see it today....In the beginning of the WoT I as a conservative, I was absolute in my opposition to papers like the NYTimes releasing intel describing things like troop movements, all for the story line they wanted to pursue of GW Bush's war being ignoble. To do such they had to publish things that were confidential, and secret giving out enemies a glimpse into our actions that allowed them to adjust....In my mind, even though I can't stand what Obama is doing, I see this as the same sort of thing.

I agree that the revelation of military secrets such as troop movements would be harmful to our combat mission and would not qualify as something the general public would have any need to know. But what Snowden did is NOT the same thing. He revealed government violations of our Constitutional rights. Any "harm" to our mission in this "war on terror" was minimal and irrelevant in light of the nature and depth of these violations.

The biggest problem I have always had with this "War on Terror" is the subjugation of our Constitutional rights to the needs of "security." Overblowing fears of possible terrorist attacks not only turned our shining example of democracy into a locked-down nation of frightened sheeple, it increased both the status and political power of terror groups in their own nations. We NEED to know when our government is over-stepping it's Constitutional bounds, regardless of how we are informed.

Originally Posted by j-mac

I have no interest in this affair to make pronouncements of right, or wrong in one's opinion. But I do think that all that we speculate as to what China knows, or doesn't know about what we are doing, is a matter that we can not know for certainty. At the very least Snowden gives our adversaries a propaganda tool to use against us, it is for that reason that I don't call him a hero, but rather a traitor....He is working against this countries interests in that matter, and the question must be asked, who appointed him America's conscience?

Had our government been operating in a forthright and Constitutional manner, there would be no ammunition to provide this "propaganda" for any rival foreign power. The funny thing is you seem to care more about this "propaganda value" than you do that our own governments malfeasance was the cause of it. So because our government screwed up and violated our Constitutional rights, and a citizen made it public which as an unfortunate side effect allowed rivals to point fingers at us, this make the act nothing but treason in your eyes? An astounding example of Orwellian double-speak..."Freedom is Slavery, War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength!"