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Why is Rengar's splitpushing important? Because Rengar is a champion devoted to all ining. Do you know what happens if you fall behind? You can't all in. Rengar has no secondary goal. All you can do now is jump in again and pray that maybe this time you'll actually win- you won't, but because you have nothing else to do there's no reason not to. It sucks even more because you made him so level-oriented that falling behind the XP curve means you should surrender unless someone on your team is excessively fed.

Tryndamere and Shyvana are MUCH safer than Rengar when splitpushing. Splitpushing was one of Rengar's major strengths that you completely scrapped- he lost a spot on MANY MANY team comps because of this.

He also lost his spot on every other team comp because now he brings nothing someone else doesn't bring.

Hello Scruffy,
I would love to expedite the process for Rengar's Q (as you said you needed more data). Personally, I find the removal of bonus AS and lowered damage on Q (especially the lowered damage on emp Q) to be quite harsh considering he is an assassin.

Regardless, what can we, as a community, do in order to help you develop an opinion on whether his Q is fair or lackluster?

This thread features some of the most ungrateful people I've ever seen. Scruffy makes multiple posts about changes to Rengar that largely cater to the suggestions in this thread, and yet the hate and rage continue. Would it kill you people to give a simple thank you? For the rare appreciation post, there are two or three either raging or trying to point out other things and completely ignoring the fact that Rengar is getting the changes you asked for. Show some appreciation for the work that's being done here.

that is exactly why everyone is upset. We were promised and told many other changes that were way better then the current release. NONE OF THEM WERE USED.

i didnt main rengar by any means, but playing the new one i feel useless. no burst, no tankiness, a stealth ult that tells you he is near (like whoever thought of this should lose their job). the only change that seemed good to me is the bola change, but the rest seems like unnecessary nerfs to a champ who was already subpar.

The Rengar update is live and we're playing and monitoring his performance a ton on our end. Let's use this thread for constructive feedback. Once we have more data we will definitely be adjusting his power levels up or down if he needs it.

-How are the changes playing for you?
-What builds are you using?
-What lanes are you playing him in?
-Finding any bugs?

I've already seen a suggestion that I like: his alert to enemies during the ult only appears if they would be able to see him out of stealth, we're already talking about this a lot internally. This seems like a good way for Rengar to optimize a bit more by taking clever paths on ganks and approaches.

-Scruffy

hopefully all the downvotes show that you dun ****ed up. You destroyed rengar forcing him to be in a role that he shouldn't be. And all around made gragas useless. For the good of the community never balance champions again please, leave it too the other staff to do it.

Quote:

Riot Pwyff:

So let's talk about that perceived "incompetency" in a champion change - what do you perceive Rengar to need and what do you perceive this rework to have killed.

If you say super safe split pushing, you're going to make me sad.

so yi and nasus don't have super safe split pushing?

The rework killed his identy, who he is what he does, Rengar is a hunter, hunters take down their prey quickly and silently in order to get it over with, they only fight 1v1 for a length period of time if they have too. like who the hell has heard of a hunter jumping into the middle of his prey to fight them all at the same time!

Quote:

RiotScruffy:

We see the Q leap bug, that will be fixed ASAP.

What about double Q feels bad specifically? The damage? The time between attacks?

the entire CHANGE of the q is horrid, right now the q is so clunky coupled with his pathetic excuse for an ult. how the hell are yo going to get off 4 hits when the godamn team is kiteing you? rengar could root them, but guess what there goes his empowered skill.

Quote:

RiotScruffy:

The thought process here was that, with the goal of allowing opponents to react to Rengar's engage, we wanted to pursue alternate methods of increasing their reaction window without having to take it all out of his damage. The warning is meant to be a very short "Rengar is coming" moment but still allow Rengar to engage on the target.

YOU ALREADY DID TAKE OUT ALL HIS DAMAGE. like holy **** AP RENGAR IS MORE VIABLE THAN AD AGAIN. and guess what there WERE methods like oracles elixer, more than one visions ward, etc, WE HAD OPTIONS BUT THEY GOT REMOVED THIS SEASON. hell if the adc is dying so much the idiot should rush a GA or randuins. And tell me how do you react to a talon who blinks onto you with the silence and instakills you hmm? tell me how is that form of assassination REALLY any different from rengars?

Quote:

RiotScruffy:

This is likely the reason that the Q is feeling sluggish to most people. It would be a good quality of life change to make the Q attack a bit faster even if it doesn't give the attack speed. Great observation.

not only that there should not be a delay between both q's

Quote:

Riot Jag:

We have definitely shifted the time-to-kill window for Rengar's assassinations more into the fighter end of the spectrum (closer to Jax than Zed, for example). He's not going to kill someone in 1-2 seconds, yes, but his damage over 4-5 seconds should be comparable to or better than the previous version while also having stronger tank stats and better stickiness.

It's true that his early lane has more weaknesses than his previous iteration. We shifted some of his power away from his Level 2 cheese and spammy E-harass, but added some back in sustained trades, healing when he's behind in lane, and assistance for jungle ganks. One thing I'm curious on here is what is an assassin's idea of winning lane, especially in the top lane. When we see assassin's top lane they're generally more than happy to be able to farm against bruisers.

If you feel like his pushing power is excessively weak I think that may be a fair criticism. We'd like to keep an eye on his overall power level since he has a lot of other really strong tools to aid in tower pushing (e.g. using an Empowered Q on a nearby minion for a strong AS bonus, the ult giving a good escape, etc.).

We want him to be in a state where he can still build to be a damage threat. If that's not true, then it's something we'll address.

do you even play your own ****ing game? a fed jax late game can kill not only adcs as fast as rengar but can completely annihilate tanks on top of that, even rengar couldn't destroy a full build tank late game super fast.

First of all most assassins shouldn't be top to begin with, the only reason rengar works well top is because of the bush setup. if those bushes weren't there rengar wouldn't be a viable top and would be stuck in the jungle as he would have no gap closer.

and no, qing a minion then autoing the tower is a retarded idea, why the hell should other champions be able to q the tower if he cant? hi i'm nasus, i can practically 3 shot a ****ing tower. hi i'm an apc with lich bane your towers just got wrecked, (especially if it's veigar) and the ult giving him a good escape? k, nerf twitches q then as its the same ****ing thing without the leap. Actually it's not the same anymore, the pathetic part is that twitches q IS BETTER THAN RENGARS GODAMN ULT.

sorry, rengar's about as threatening as a cocker spaniel. Reverse the ult and q changes, you can keep the w and e however as they were decent.

Quote:

RiotScruffy:

To be clear about Rengar's role in a team, we wanted to leave this mostly unchanged. He is still the guy that hunts the enemy squishies and can stalk around choosing his prey at will. His damage is lowered some, but we still want him to be a strong damage threat.

He is unique from some of the other assassins like zed or khazix because he has much more versatility with his ferocity skills (CC, Damage, Heals, many options here). On the other hand, some other assassins have escapes, where he does not. Considering he doesn't have a reliable escape once he has engaged, we gave him some more tools like durability and speed so that once he is in, he has a means of contributing.

As far as items, we're not designing towards any "right" way to build Rengar. He scales well with both offensive and defensive items and that is something that is cool about him as a character.

Keep in mind, we're not going to leave Rengar out to dry if he has problems/needs changes. We already have a bunch of changes planned for the next patch like speeding up the Q attack animations significantly, and some ult warning changes that we have been talking about in this thread. We should have a bunch more data soon, which will help inform us if he needs more changes, and where.

I appreciate all of the feedback, and I know that change can be frustrating on a character that you know and love so well. Don't fear for Rengar, he's not going away anytime soon.

IS THIS A ****ING JOKE? Go ahead hunt the ****ing squishies and get completely ****ing destroyed as YOU BLATANTLY MADE IT FOR HIM NOT TO BE AN ASSASSIN. this ****ing entire kit change made him a godamn tank NOT DAMAGE, do you even know what your ****ing doing? or are you just blindly swinging the godamn nerf hammer jesus christ. Build rengar assassin, i dare you, i ****ing dare you, watch as you get kited for days due to rengars ****ty engage, oh but hes more durable now! k durability kept you alive for a couple seconds longer, to bad you don't have damage too back it up. you've ruined lol for me, plain and simple.

Quote:

RiotScruffy:

We have an ult change coming in the next patch that will not alert enemies if you wouldn't be visible to them outside of stealth. This is really big for when he is ganking or approaching his targets from a brush or near walls. It was pretty silly to alert the enemy when Rengar wouldn't have been visible out of stealth anyway, you guys were totally right on this one.

Also, the Q and Empowered Q attack animations are getting significantly sped up. This will fix a lot of the "my Q didn't go off" cases, and it's a non trivial buff in his dps output over time.

This isn't the end, but it's what I can say is coming with certainty right now.

better idea, listen to the ****ing community for once and STOP trying to mold him into what you want him to be, revert the q and r as those changes were ****ing pathetic, i'll admit your w and e changes were great but your q and r? god, they need to be burned with fire.

Long story short, your changing a champ who doesn't need to be changed, he was in a position where he was useful and could contribute to the team more than you thought he did, just because some people play his a retarded way DOESN'T mean everybody else does, yah i could backdoor with him, but i could contribute to teamfights by effectively taking out high priority targets, These changes feel like biased hate changes more than anything. Rengars heal has been nerfed so many effing times that its not even funny, yet there hasn't been a nerf for nids heal. you know the heal that gives back the entire ****ing hp bar AND attack speed. And if killing a target extremely fast is so bad, then lets remove all assassins from the game as blatantly they aren't welcome here. Hell look at jax, he might as well be an effing assassin with how much damage he does.

IMO this nerf was completely unnecessary, just like the Skarner nerfs. Both had subpar win rates and pick rates, but were good and fun if you learned them. Now they are both just absolutely terrible. For all those sucking up to Riot/Scruffy and saying "he had to do it, they were cancer" just think about the champs. They both got nerfed hard, essentially taking an underplayed, UP, but at least fun champ and turning it into an even less played, more UP, and completely unfun champ. I would be in favor of even completely reverting these reworks. They serve no purpose in the improving of the game, or the balancing of the game, or even increasing counterplay.

RiotScruffy, I really think you should hear the community out on this.

A few things a recommend to help relieve some of the pressure you have right now.

1) I think that you should buff the cast time to his Q, It feels slower, causing more deaths and less kills.
2) Remove the notification that Rengar is near during his ult. I have not played against Rengar but if I read correctly, Enemies are notified when he is near during his ult. How is this fair to Rengar players? Everytime we go to assassinate someone, they know you're coming and hug turret. Really bad idea.
3) I think the old idea of having Rengar able to place down a trinket item and whenever an enemy enters the visible area, Rengar should be able to jump. OR like another idea said, If Rengar hits his Bola Strike, He should be able to jump to the enemy. This would make Rengars gameplay so much of a challenge, yet very interesting and fun.

RiotScruffy, I really think you should hear the community out on this.

A few things a recommend to help relieve some of the pressure you have right now.

1) I think that you should buff the cast time to his Q, It feels slower, causing more deaths and less kills.
2) Remove the notification that Rengar is near during his ult. I have not played against Rengar but if I read correctly, Enemies are notified when he is near during his ult. How is this fair to Rengar players? Everytime we go to assassinate someone, they know you're coming and hug turret. Really bad idea.
3) I think the old idea of having Rengar able to place down a trinket item and whenever an enemy enters the visible area, Rengar should be able to jump. OR like another idea said, If Rengar hits his Bola Strike, He should be able to jump to the enemy. This would make Rengars gameplay so much of a challenge, yet very interesting and fun.

One of the things that upsets me the most about this rework is its forcing rengar into the role of a bruiser.

Homogenization at its finest.

At least this is what i feel.
Playing as a bruiser is just incredibly boring I played and chose rengar (despite being told that he was trash by virtually everyone i knew on league at the time) because he looked fun. And guess what? He was and I found him strong.
As a bruisers you can make a messy play and get away with it, as an assassin if you screw up your probably dead, especially in the case of rengar because of his lack of an escape.

I was fine with the tankgar nerfs, like by all means, it was the most obnoxious thing in the game; you could beat out ranged opponents and even melee lane bullies like renekton after a few levels. Hell, you good give a kill or two to renekton and still beat him.
But now you've taken away the only reasons that I played rengar, the fun aspect, high risk high reward (and the reward felt awesome).

We dont need more bruisers, please, they are not the most fun role in the game, id be more likely to play a bruiser if i was just starting out in league. And if your reason is "we want to open the game to new players" well guess what, all of the gold, plat, diamond and challenger players started playing a while before now and they're doing fine. New players can already learn, we dont need to ruin a whole champ identity just to open them up to newer players, let them play the low skill floor champs and move on from there.

I agree, rengar did need some love, was a whole rework necessary? Maybe not, but thats besides the point. You've taken a subpar champ with only a few redeeming qualities and turned in into a dull champ thats a whole lot less than strong, the exact opposite of what you set out to do.
Return rengar to a full assassin champ and make changes to his kit that would actually benefit an assassin, thank you.