Post by Addam603 on Feb 15, 2020 11:55:51 GMT -5

Post by manfred on Feb 15, 2020 12:05:54 GMT -5

At least we only ended up with the guy with back problems and not the guy with arm problems, too.

In all seriousness, this does seem like a big risk. I mean, unproven players are risky enough as it is, but a guy who comes hurt? I don’t mean that as second guessing, because obviously they have all the info and I don’t, but I’d still be super nervous.

This actually makes me respect Bloom a tad more, ironically. He is taking a huge risk... he must believe in Verdugo’s upside a lot, knowing if he is damaged goods, he might have sealed his legacy after only months on the job.

Post by sarasoxer on Feb 15, 2020 12:27:25 GMT -5

At least we only ended up with the guy with back problems and not the guy with arm problems, too.

In all seriousness, this does seem like a big risk. I mean, unproven players are risky enough as it is, but a guy who comes hurt? I don’t mean that as second guessing, because obviously they have all the info and I don’t, but I’d still be super nervous.

This actually makes me respect Bloom a tad more, ironically. He is taking a huge risk... he must believe in Verdugo’s upside a lot, knowing if he is damaged goods, he might have sealed his legacy after only months on the job.

Finally an answer!! I've asked about the injury here after not having found a darn thing elsewhere. Why the long term mystery tho?

6 months seems a long time for a stress fracture to heal but apparently it's not a significant concern for the Sox. I wonder whether having such a condition lends to a propensity to have more or a recurrence. If not, I wouldn't term Verdugo damaged goods.

Post by sibbysisti on Feb 15, 2020 12:31:14 GMT -5

Back injuries are complicated. There are nerves, discs, a spine, etc. Sometimes they can never be fixed. I’m not a doctor, nor am I trying to diagnose Verdugo’s injuries. If Bloom knew about this, why didn’t he ask to substitute another healthy player? We have seen players who have chronic back problems throughout their careers often requiring surgery.

Now we are told Verdugo may not start the season. Very bad judgement on our new GM’s part. Not a good start at all.

Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 15, 2020 12:40:38 GMT -5

I have faith the brass didn't think this would be a factor in 2021 and beyond. That's all I really care about. He's worth the risk. Not to diminish the significance of back injuries, but the Patriots used to have a very good tight end with a history of back problems. It's just not the end of the world, especially given his age.

Post by iakovos11 on Feb 15, 2020 15:02:08 GMT -5

Back injuries are complicated. There are nerves, discs, a spine, etc. Sometimes they can never be fixed. I’m not a doctor, nor am I trying to diagnose Verdugo’s injuries. If Bloom knew about this, why didn’t he ask to substitute another healthy player? We have seen players who have chronic back problems throughout their careers often requiring surgery.

Now we are told Verdugo may not start the season. Very bad judgement on our new GM’s part. Not a good start at all.

Like who? Verdugo is basically plug and play for Mookie. Sox really needed that. Not that's he's as good as Mookie, but he can play well in that spot.

Seriously, this is just trying to come up with reasons to be critical of Bloom. They had a problem with Graterol's medicals - to the point where it held up the trade. But they had no issue with Verdugo's, the key piece. There should be no reason for a long term concern.

“There is only one way to avoid criticism: Do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing” ~ Aristotle

Post by sibbysisti on Feb 15, 2020 15:09:56 GMT -5

Back injuries are complicated. There are nerves, discs, a spine, etc. Sometimes they can never be fixed. I’m not a doctor, nor am I trying to diagnose Verdugo’s injuries. If Bloom knew about this, why didn’t he ask to substitute another healthy player? We have seen players who have chronic back problems throughout their careers often requiring surgery.

Now we are told Verdugo may not start the season. Very bad judgement on our new GM’s part. Not a good start at all.

Like who? Verdugo is basically plug and play for Mookie. Sox really needed that. Not that's he's as good as Mookie, but he can play well in that spot.

Seriously, this is just trying to come up with reasons to be critical of Bloom. They had a problem with Graterol's medicals - to the point where it held up the trade. But they had no issue with Verdugo's, the key piece. There should be no reason for a long term concern.

Post by ericmvan on Feb 15, 2020 15:40:07 GMT -5

Like who? Verdugo is basically plug and play for Mookie. Sox really needed that. Not that's he's as good as Mookie, but he can play well in that spot.

Seriously, this is just trying to come up with reasons to be critical of Bloom. They had a problem with Graterol's medicals - to the point where it held up the trade. But they had no issue with Verdugo's, the key piece. There should be no reason for a long term concern.

And they had other options with teams with healthy players.

Well, as early as the middle of last season I identified Verdugo as the one and only guy you would trade Mookie for (that the other team might conceivably give you). Already a first-division starter at age 23, an above-average defender in CF or in Fenway's RF, with five years of control.

So, no.

I've been reading a lot of philosophy recently, and the technical term for this sort of incorrect argument is ... damn it, I can never get these two straight. It's either talking out of your ass or being a whiny little ... person.

Post by jimed14 on Feb 15, 2020 15:41:14 GMT -5

Like who? Verdugo is basically plug and play for Mookie. Sox really needed that. Not that's he's as good as Mookie, but he can play well in that spot.

Seriously, this is just trying to come up with reasons to be critical of Bloom. They had a problem with Graterol's medicals - to the point where it held up the trade. But they had no issue with Verdugo's, the key piece. There should be no reason for a long term concern.

And they had other options with teams with healthy players.

You mean the ones who weren't trying to trade for him?

“We just lost a World Series game in 18 innings. But after that [meeting], it didn’t feel like we lost. It felt like we won.”

Post by manfred on Feb 15, 2020 15:49:06 GMT -5

In fairness, they likely could have gotten a different package from the Dodgers. They, and some here, clearly wanted an immediate replacement. That is a fine approach. But I am confident they could’ve gone with low-level risky guys. Another legit approach.

I’m in wait and see mode. People get hurt. Usually they get better. I’m guessing the Sox are as confident that this is the case as you can possibly be. I trust them, and I am definitely not a Sox exec or a doctor. At the same time, I am not one who thinks the plug-and-play approach was the only option. So any beef I have with the trade has nothing to do with Verdugo’s back.

Post by ericmvan on Feb 15, 2020 16:21:52 GMT -5

In fairness, they likely could have gotten a different package from the Dodgers. They, and some here, clearly wanted an immediate replacement. That is a fine approach. But I am confident they could’ve gone with low-level risky guys. Another legit approach.

I’m in wait and see mode. People get hurt. Usually they get better. I’m guessing the Sox are as confident that this is the case as you can possibly be. I trust them, and I am definitely not a Sox exec or a doctor. At the same time, I am not one who thinks the plug-and-play approach was the only option. So any beef I have with the trade has nothing to do with Verdugo’s back.

I believe that's because you feel that the season is already punted without Mookie. Whereas most of us believe (correctly, of course) that the team can absolutely contend with Mookie replaced by someone good.

Kevin Pillar is replacing Sam Travis on the roster.

Pillar had 377 PA after he changed his swing, and had 1.7 fWAR. Eerily, Alex Verdugo had 377 PA on the season, and had 3.1 WAR.

To say this is dwarfed by the uncertainty in performance by Sale and Eovaldi is a huge understatement. The season has always been about whether those guys pitch up to their talents, or down to their injuries. Period.

That you personally arepessimisticabout them falls a little bit short of being a rational reason to run the team as if they had no chance to contend.

"You either need some medication or you're an a******." -- David Ortiz correctly diagnosing Bobby Valentine

Post by iakovos11 on Feb 15, 2020 16:26:06 GMT -5

Like who? Verdugo is basically plug and play for Mookie. Sox really needed that. Not that's he's as good as Mookie, but he can play well in that spot.

Seriously, this is just trying to come up with reasons to be critical of Bloom. They had a problem with Graterol's medicals - to the point where it held up the trade. But they had no issue with Verdugo's, the key piece. There should be no reason for a long term concern.

And they had other options with teams with healthy players.

Such as?

“There is only one way to avoid criticism: Do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing” ~ Aristotle

Post by manfred on Feb 15, 2020 16:29:03 GMT -5

In fairness, they likely could have gotten a different package from the Dodgers. They, and some here, clearly wanted an immediate replacement. That is a fine approach. But I am confident they could’ve gone with low-level risky guys. Another legit approach.

I’m in wait and see mode. People get hurt. Usually they get better. I’m guessing the Sox are as confident that this is the case as you can possibly be. I trust them, and I am definitely not a Sox exec or a doctor. At the same time, I am not one who thinks the plug-and-play approach was the only option. So any beef I have with the trade has nothing to do with Verdugo’s back.

I believe that's because you feel that the season is already punted without Mookie. Whereas most of us believe (correctly, of course) that the team can absolutely contend with Mookie replaced by someone good.

Kevin Pillar is replacing Sam Travis on the roster.

Pillar had 377 PA after he changed his swing, and had 1.7 fWAR. Eerily, Alex Verdugo had 377 PA on the season, and had 3.1 WAR.

To say this is dwarfed by the uncertainty in performance by Sale and Eovaldi is a huge understatement. The season has always been about whether those guys pitch up to their talents, or down to their injuries. Period.

That you personally arepessimisticabout them falls a little bit short of being a rational reason to run the team as if they had no chance to contend.

I totally agree with your assessment. In a way, the Price loss is worse this year (only) than Mookie.... I think they can score runs no matter what. But the problem is, this team was behind last year and fell further behind this off season. Their problem was pitching, and they let Porcello go and traded Price, and got back Perez. So it isn’t really about an even trade in right so much as the big move didn’t improve this year’s team when it had to. So, yeah, I’d say it is a form of punting with an eye towards the long term. I don’t even think that is controversial... was this a trade meant to improve them this year? Clearly not.

And all I’m saying is if you are looking long term, getting lower level prospects is a legitimate alternative. Don’t be a jerk. You said Verdugo was the ONLY option. I’m saying, CORRECTLY, well, there are alternate approaches, and that is not even dismissing the one they took.

Post by caseytins on Feb 15, 2020 17:16:50 GMT -5

At least we only ended up with the guy with back problems and not the guy with arm problems, too.

In all seriousness, this does seem like a big risk. I mean, unproven players are risky enough as it is, but a guy who comes hurt? I don’t mean that as second guessing, because obviously they have all the info and I don’t, but I’d still be super nervous.

This actually makes me respect Bloom a tad more, ironically. He is taking a huge risk... he must believe in Verdugo’s upside a lot, knowing if he is damaged goods, he might have sealed his legacy after only months on the job.

Finally an answer!! I've asked about the injury here after not having found a darn thing elsewhere. Why the long term mystery tho?

6 months seems a long time for a stress fracture to heal but apparently it's not a significant concern for the Sox. I wonder whether having such a condition lends to a propensity to have more or a recurrence. If not, I wouldn't term Verdugo damaged goods.

Yes! Stress fractures have a high likelihood to come back in time. Depending on where it is exactly in the back is a big deal. In my opinion, I would give him 2-3 months more than the doctors recommend. I've been down this road before. Stress fractures take a long time to heal and need to be treated with extreme caution. My two were in the lower half of my body, nothing near as extreme as my back. The thing is, you need to completely shut down certain activity for enough time to allow the bone to heal. The stress fracture in my foot took over a year to heal when I was in my 20's. I was also running close to 20 miles/day in preparation for a 100 mile trail run. The doctor asked me how old I was. I told him 29. He said he had never seen a foot look so bad for a 29 year old, and recommended that I never run again. I told him that I disagree. 20 years later I still run. I run a lot. It just takes time to allow the bone to heal..

Post by jimed14 on Feb 15, 2020 17:17:14 GMT -5

This seems like a very simple, treatable back injury, not likely to be chronic with the proper treatment. This seems much better news than the news that he had undefined back trouble.

Are you kidding me? This is in no way good news. Stress fractures are no joke. I've suffered a couple, never one in the spine. I hope they are ultra cautious with this.

I fractured a vertebrae in my back when I was a kid. It healed naturally (took quite awhile) and I never had trouble with it again. It's when the spine is putting pressure on the spinal cord that there are always lingering issues that never go away. I'm going to guess it's more like my injury that just takes time.

Post by Addam603 on Feb 15, 2020 17:18:00 GMT -5

This seems like a very simple, treatable back injury, not likely to be chronic with the proper treatment. This seems much better news than the news that he had undefined back trouble.

Are you kidding me? This is in no way good news. Stress fractures are no joke. I've suffered a couple, never one in the spine. I hope they are ultra cautious with this.

L5 stress fractures are the most common (90-95%) of the cases in the area. While stress fractures aren’t a joke, the one that he has is a relatively common fracture where almost all cases have a complete recovery. What’s more is that L5 fractures are mostly found in young athletes. This is something that the Red Sox medical staff was fully aware of and comfortable with. Take it slow with the recovery. We have him for 5 years.

Post by jimed14 on Feb 15, 2020 17:19:52 GMT -5

Are you kidding me? This is in no way good news. Stress fractures are no joke. I've suffered a couple, never one in the spine. I hope they are ultra cautious with this.

L5 stress fractures are the most common (90-95%) of the cases in the area. While stress fractures aren’t a joke, the one that he has is a relatively common fracture where almost all cases have a complete recovery. What’s more is that L5 fractures are mostly found in young athletes. This is something that the Red Sox medical staff was fully aware of and comfortable with. Take it slow with the recovery. We have him for 5 years.

Yeah, that's exactly what I had. It was called an L5 pars defect. Never had trouble with it again after healing.

“We just lost a World Series game in 18 innings. But after that [meeting], it didn’t feel like we lost. It felt like we won.”

Post by caseytins on Feb 15, 2020 17:24:57 GMT -5

Are you kidding me? This is in no way good news. Stress fractures are no joke. I've suffered a couple, never one in the spine. I hope they are ultra cautious with this.

L5 stress fractures are the most common (90-95%) of the cases in the area. While stress fractures aren’t a joke, the one that he has is a relatively common fracture where almost all cases have a complete recovery. What’s more is that L5 fractures are mostly found in young athletes. This is something that the Red Sox medical staff was fully aware of and comfortable with. Take it slow with the recovery. We have him for 5 years.

Exactly the reason to use extreme caution. Start out the season with Pillar

Post by Addam603 on Feb 15, 2020 17:36:13 GMT -5

L5 stress fractures are the most common (90-95%) of the cases in the area. While stress fractures aren’t a joke, the one that he has is a relatively common fracture where almost all cases have a complete recovery. What’s more is that L5 fractures are mostly found in young athletes. This is something that the Red Sox medical staff was fully aware of and comfortable with. Take it slow with the recovery. We have him for 5 years.

Exactly the reason to use extreme caution. Start out the season with Pillar

I agree. No sense in rushing him back on the field, especially in cold weather. But no cause for panic either.

Post by hammerhead on Feb 15, 2020 17:45:42 GMT -5

This seems like a very simple, treatable back injury, not likely to be chronic with the proper treatment. This seems much better news than the news that he had undefined back trouble.

Are you kidding me? This is in no way good news. Stress fractures are no joke. I've suffered a couple, never one in the spine. I hope they are ultra cautious with this.

Yes it is good news. As has been mentioned above, Stress fractures in the vertebrae are almost never chronic or recurring. They are typically acute. It's a better diagnoses than say moderate herniations, bulging or ruptured discs or degeneration etc.