Superman is a great character. People don't like "Good" right now though. People see themselves as falling so short of good that it makes it impossible to like a truly good character. Good is boring. "Boy Scout", "Goody-two-shoes", "Moral" are all derogatory because they can't be achieved by the masses.

Superman works when the audience feels like they're achieving good - like fighting Nazis or the KKK. Right now the world isn't working towards greater good, there is no great evil being fought - pretty much only petty politics where everyone is the bad guy all the time. This is why Batman works right now. The irony is that the world needs good in order to work towards good. Superman will work again in the next world war and should probably be shelved until he can fight along side the audience.

For the record though, Captain America is my favorite superhero. Not in any "America, fark yeah" sense, though.

Knowingly or not, it's the modern John 3:16 for those of us that don't believe in hokey religions but grew up obsessed with Superman, Batman and all those other stories of greatness versus mediocrity, good versus evil and man's inner struggle with himself.

Many of us built our moral codes on these stories as children and we still look to them for inspiration and reminders of our ideologies.

I'm sure not every comic book or superhero fan identifies with them this way, but the underlying story behind Superman (as with other superheros) is a story well worth telling. I can't wait until someone finds the way to tell it correctly and effectively as Richard Donner did. I sure hope Man of Steel pulls it off.

As for Superman himself, yes he is especially difficult to portray. But it's not because he is the pinnacle of greatness... from his strength of flesh and near invincibility to his superior intelligence and morality. And it's not that he is without fault because he is. And it isn't that out of necessity and will to survive that evil will seek his fall relentlessly.All of these are the easy parts. Just doing them makes a mediocre Superman story (and I think we know which ones they are)

The difficulty lies in finding a way to portray that because of all his god-like gifts; that he holds the weight of a world and the fate of a people on his shoulders. A fate he was chosen for but must accept willingly.And that when he falters, it's those who suffer from his mistakes and he must cope with that inevitability.. That because he is held (and holds himself) to such high standards and aspirations that when he falls short, it's a very very long fall for both himself and those who look to him.

The higher we climb (or fly), the further we have to fall and the greater the consequences will be when we do.It's a theme and lesson without age. And Superman can fly so very very high.

blue_2501:Superman is ultra boring and mega lame. Why? Because you have very few weaknesses, all of the stories are going to revolve around those weaknesses, over and over and over and over again. I mean, have you seen a Superman movie that DIDN'T involve Kryptonite?

Also, his "stars and stripes forever" level of patriotism makes him a pretty one-dimensional goody two shoes. Batman has a dark side and a dark past. Many good superheroes do. The best stories revolve around anti-heroes or ones that have danced around shades of grey.

Lastly, when Alan Moore was creating the character Dr. Manhattan, he was basically making fun of Superman. This is what you do when you have as much power as Superman...

1) Superman II didn't involve kryptonite.2) Your attitude is the reason the comics industry has been saddled with an endless stream of generic anti-heroes since the 90's. Superman and Batman are two sides of the same coin. Batman is the cynical realist who sees humanity for what it is. Superman is the idealist who sees what humanity could be. We may live in Batman's world but we should strive for Superman's. Without a Superman, life is just an endless struggle until you're shot dead in some grimy Gotham alley. For all of his struggle, Batman ultimately accomplishes nothing. It's not just that the villains always come back, it's that the low level criminals never go away. There is always an endless stream of muggers, robbers, rapists, thieves, mobsters, crooked cops and low-lifes that are willing to risk Batman's wrath in order to operate in Gotham. Superman is a ray of hope in that world.3) No, Alan Moore wasn't "making fun" of Superman, he was deconstructing the character. Dr. Manhattan is what happens to Superman when he loses his tether to humanity. Superman unbound from his ethical code is terrifying.

dalbuc:So the defense of the ball of suck that is superman is that in 1932 he didn't suck - not sure beating up landlords and ward bosses doesn't suck but whatever floats your boat. Superman is a god and stories about gods suck. Stories about people f'ed with by the gods don't suck. The Iliad isn't about the god, it is about the people the gods have ruined. It is entirely possible a Lois Lane focused movie would be vastly more compelling than a Superman focused movie.

Superman also has no rivals anyone cares about. Batman has rivals that people want to see - the Joker being likely the best arch-villain out there. Superman doesn't have anyone that sniffs Joker level and really nothing at the Catwoman/Penguin level.

Superman isn't a god... see thats your problem right there.

He is Gallahad who was given the power of the Gods. And he has to keep his power in check because of his humanity.

He is the best humanity has to offer

Byrne made Lex Luthor vs Superman interesting

Lex is a self made man: He came out of the slums and did so with grit , determination, and a grey morality. He views himself as the greatness of humanity. Superman is a mirror that shows he isn't great he is just powerful.

Braniac is the knowledge of the Kryptonian race that exists without the humanity Clark has

Champion of the Sun:I was being serious about the truth justice and the American way thing. Yes, America has an ugly past but we at least paid lip service to a higher ideal. Now no one cares about justice as we kill people with drones. Superman probably wouldn't be cool with one in five American children going hungry. I can't remember the last time I heard truth out of any public figure, even the ones I kinda like

In all seriousness, America holds up a much higher standard for "truth and justice" now than we did in any time in the past. While I'm no fan of drones, you really think they are worse than slavery? Internment camps? Making homosexuality illegal? Not allowing women or minorities (or non-property holding whites) to vote? Mass murdering native americans? Censoring books and works of art? Hollywood blacklisting?

CPT Ethanolic:Batman is easier because of the "dark" past. It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy. Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.

Good point.

I think people see Superman as boring because he comes off as a Boy Scout - a 2D, goody-two-shoes that can't be or do anything controversial.

But that's just the product if limited imaginations.

First, you *can* make a "heroes' hero" interesting (but it does require a moral position; hard to do in a time where morality is so political, but not impossible).

Second, he's a frkn' ALIEN, so there's tons of fertile ground there.

Third, there's something they always gloss over with Superman: he's supposed to be a genius. It wouldn't be hard to write a story where he's using his mind and power to solve problems (bigger than crooked real estate schemes), and having to deal with those whose corrupt power is threatened by him.

Making Superman interesting means taking chances and taking risks with the story. Sadly his audience may not be amenable to that.

AsprinBurn:Superman is the classic "god in love with a mortal" archetype

It's a matter of considerable irony that the people who have most captured the Superman persona isn't DC but Marvel - in their portrayal of Thor. There's a lot of similarities.

When you write a story about Superman, there's one truth that you have to get right or it doesn't work. That truth is that all other superhero books are about what the character does, but Superman stories have to be about who the character is. It isn't about 'what' or 'how', but about 'why' he does what he does.

Superman is the classic "god in love with a mortal" archetype, so any story about superman must, to work, be about the mortals in his life--not just Lane and Olson always. It has to be about character, about love and sacrifice, to work well as a story. Superman's true weakness isn't kryptonite or magic (yes, magic--it's in the books), it's love. Yet, Hollywood can't seem to make a Superman movie without kryptonite, and I'm getting tired of it. This one, I predict, will be no different.

Stepping back from Superman for a moment, I think any superhero story should not only involve some cool CGI of their powers, sure; but more important is using their powers in new and surprising ways. Show me some thought and creativity behind being a super-powered person. That gets difficult when a hero only has super-strength, flight and heat vision to work with (and a few others, I know). Seeing the comic book Superman shave his beard via heat-visioning his own face in a mirror may make me say, 'wtf is that mirror made of,' but it is a nice start. It's better than the movies have done yet.

Different versions of Superman have had vastly different power levels. Only a few have had the strength to push the planet. I think he is his best when he's fast, but not time-bending fast, and when he's strong, but not planet-shoving strong, etc. And when he's not amnesia-kissing the memories out of people (unless he uses it on Lex Luthor all of a sudden--that I'd pay to see, just for the LOLs).

I don't mind a Superman movie once every fifteen or twenty years or so, maybe even a trilogy if it is of excellent quality, but, seriously, the constant rebooting of well known characters for the big screen is getting old, fast. I know Spider-man's origin story. there was no need to start all over again so damn soon (even if they do Gwen Stacey this time). I just saw a different version of Superman a few years back. Why should I be interested in another one? I would have been more interested in a Wonder Woman or even Captain Marvel movie than another version of Superman. Even a well-done Supergirl would have been a better idea, let alone a slightly more obscure hero.

I'm not a big comics person, but this was one of the best original spins on Superman I've seen in awhile. (I know it's several years old at this point.) I wouldn't mind seeing a movie adaptation, though I'm not sure how that would play in Peoria.

If you look at the history of popular characters, you will find that what made them popular is watered down as they became more mainstream.

Mickey Mouse was a bit of a smart ass prankster. Popeye was a rough and tumble sailor. Superman was a bully who forced his liberal agenda on people. (His first major story was to stop ammunition manufacturers from cintinuing a civil war in South America.)

Superman isn't invunerable, nor is he always strongest. He always had a tendency hit first and ask questions later. In all of his adventures he gets knocked out, hurt, restrained... Etc. just like any other superhero.

But superman cannot be defeated due to normal human achievement. Thats why people find him boring. You can shoot Batman. You can't just shoot Superman.

I still think the right way to do a Superman movie is to stop trying to force Superman to be a dark/complex/interesting character, and just use him as he is used best in comics: as a a goofy fun character who fights wacky enemies.

Have him fly around with Krypto and fight Bizarro and deal with Brainiac using 8 different kinds of kryptonite on him. shiat like that.

Not only is that the right way to use superman, but it also would make the movie stand out among the current crop of superhero films that all feel really similar in tone.

They should definitely be developing Darkseid as a movie villain because of the effect he has on Superman.

Supes' relationship with Lex Luthor is complex. He hates and distrusts him, while simultaneously trying to save him from himself.

His relationship with Darkseid is nothing like that. Darkseid makes Supes farking crazy. As soon as he so much as sees Darkseid he starts boiling over with rage and his brain switches off and he starts making mistakes. This largely comes from the fact that Darkie managed to take control of Supes a few times in the past and use him to do very naughty things. He's the only person Supes not only seriously considers but actually threatens to kill on a regular basis.

In contrast, Darkseid could barely be more indifferent to it all. In true M. Bison fashion, he sees Supes' insane rage at being used the way he was, but to Darkie it was just Tuesday.

Lots of great stuff in this thread but one of the things that I've always found interesting about Superman isn't Superman, but Clarke Kent. THAT'S the real Jor-El. A humble guy that's just wants to get on with his life who happens to be in love with crack reporter Lois Lane.

Where this story connects from a human, dramatic point of view is before Lane knows his secret identity. Kent can't tell her who he really is even though she's always pining after Superman. The poor bastard is in a love triangle with himself. What's makes it dramatic is that this is unrequited on two levels- Lane doesn't love Kent so they aren't going to get it on and Superman's too noble for a relationship.

I honestly think Superman is in desperate need of a long term makeover and I think it's all too simple how to do it: revert him to his Golden Age roots. He's about Truth and Justice (not the American way). He takes matters into his own hands. He'll bash through the walls of the villain's base and scare the hell out of them. He'll chuck guys around with ease and laugh at their attacks.

Who is this Superman? He's the guy we wish we could be when we wake up in the morning and read the news of the world and are disgusted. He's who your Grandpa wished he was when he was growing up poor during the Depression. He's not the guy who's there to save you; he's you to save this world one injustice at a time if you just had the power.

"But Superman has a corny personality," you say. Newsflash: everyone did in the Silver Age. Yes, even the wonderful Batman, Iron Man, or even Thor all were corny by today's standards then. DC's just been too stupid to shake Supes out of it like the rest.

You now have a super strong (but not "move the planet" strong), super tough (but tank shells can hurt him), super fast (but not "go back in time" fast) guy who cannot fly and cannot shoot heat beams from his eyes. And he's sick of some of this world's bull shiat. He's a walking power fantasy that lives in a world of corrupt politicians, greedy businessmen, and economic stress and he fights back.

You take that walking power fantasy and you explore how he can (and cannot) deal with today's ills. He's no more powerful than, say, Thor (who can fly and shoot lightning) or the Hulk (who isn't harmed by tank shells). He's a man who wants to do the right thing and be a hero (like Cap).

As far as coming up with a good movie villain to go against Big Blue... I think Brainiac has the most potential, if done right.

The key to dealing with top-tier superpowers, and demigod characters in general, is to use conflicts that render those powers at least partially useless. That doesn't always mean the magic or kryptonite method. Kingdom Come worked by confronting him with a dilemma that he no longer had the perspective to solve. Brainiac can do the same, while playing to enough tropes to make the character quickly understood by viewers.

Picture Brainiac as the logical sci-fi extension of AI research and crimefighting/counterterrorism: an ultra-authoritarian Big Brother that manages to infest most of the world's networks before anyone notices what it's up to. It demands that humanity live in peace as rational beings- and will nuke us, turn drones on us or simply take all our toys away, the moment we make one false move. Like Superman, it's a transhuman intelligence with its own notions of Truth and Justice and a vision for humanity's future. It has no body to punch, no secret core system to heat-vision into slag, and can hold the entire species hostage against Supes and his interference. Even if Brainiac is bluffing on that last point, it may well be that the only way to stop it is to undo the entire Information Age and then start over from untainted systems.

karasoth:Bill Frist: dalbuc: Superman also has no rivals anyone cares about. Batman has rivals that people want to see - the Joker being likely the best arch-villain out there. Superman doesn't have anyone that sniffs Joker level and really nothing at the Catwoman/Penguin level.

Lex is a cool villain, but everyone else in Superman's rogue gallery is pretty farking dumb. I mean, who are the next biggest ones? Brainiac and Mr. Mxyzptlk?

demonfaerie:I actually enjoyed Superman in the DC cartoons, but mostly when Batman is around. They really complement each other well. I have not read enough Superman comics, but that was because I couldn't get into them. However, didn't they just hook up Superman and Wonder Woman to make them more relevant again? Also they did with match.com I guess too. http://mashable.com/2012/08/27/superman-wonder-woman/

Also obligatory: Death and Return of Superman

Sums up Superman.

Death and Return of Superman is terrible and from the pop culture perspective of superman an not from the actual comic fan perspective

Bill Frist: Like, you think Superman wouldn't be cool with one in five children going hungry but... he was cool with the mass poverty and hunger of Hoover's presidency? (Superman was created in 1932)

You really don't know your Superman history. It's the exact opposite of what you said. The Truth, Justice and the American Way only came later, after WWII. He was much more a people's hero fighting corrupt politicians and dirty landlords in the first decade. Having been created in 1932 is absolute zero evidence that he was cool with anything happening in that year.

I'm sick to shiat of Wolverine and Deadpool and their like, and this idea that it's only got ethos or pathos if it's grimdark. I reread this...

...over Christmas. It was an amazing reminder of why Superman's always been my hero.

I'm glad that someone mentioned Superman vs. The Elite. Awesome movie. The animated DC movies have knocked it out of the park for the most part. Also check out the adaptation of All-Star Superman. A couple of the greatest Superman films made right there.

I was being serious about the truth justice and the American way thing. Yes, America has an ugly past but we at least paid lip service to a higher ideal. Now no one cares about justice as we kill people with drones. Superman probably wouldn't be cool with one in five American children going hungry. I can't remember the last time I heard truth out of any public figure, even the ones I kinda like

kroonermanblack:No, but he has to work to achieve his goals. There's actual risk to the character conceptually. He can have his back broken, or need to make a gizmo, or do things. Superman? None of that. There's no stress or issue, all he has to do to overcome obstacles? Stop stopping himself a fraction of a bit. That's it.

Superman has suffered all kinds of injuries and has even died. Sure he comes back from everything, but so does every other superhero out there.

Champion of the Sun:DarkPascual: BTW... what I said was totally from a narrative standpoint... Not being from the USA gives me certain difficulty to approach things the American way...

Inside every furriner is an American just waiting to get out. Buy some guns and worship the rich, and you'll be welcomed with open arms. You're white, right?

XD... I like guns, but more for the aesthetic value of them (I mean, the Colt .45 Dragoon is a GORGEOUS piece of machine)... Don't worship the rich (they SHOULD pay bigger taxes), but don't see the issue of rich people living rich lifestyles as long as their fortunes have been made ethically and honestly... Unfortunately, I'm a dirty socialist Latin... so no luck for my brown (if pale by our standards) ass... I do like pro-wrestling and Rocky IV in a non ironic way, does it count? XD

thornhill:The problem with Superman, is that if there's never any real risk of him dying -- he's not risking his life to save humanity. At most, it disrupts his personal life. And it's hard to feel bad for someone who's omnipotent.

I think that if people think that the reason that Superman is boring is the power level, that can be fixed. If it is for the type of character that Supes is, then it's simply not for them.

It's important to give it the right approach and even put him against the right villains (Darkseid, Imperiex, Zod, Doomsday, Brainiac, Mxyzptlk, President Luthor, probably any decent magic user... I think that Green Lantern could take Superman with the right mindset), and even take some liberties with the established canon and lower the power level. Certainly DC has done things to make Superman less invincible. Is still hard to take him out, but not impossible anymore...

And here is the other thing that I feel sometimes is overlooked about Superman... the guy may have the powers of the god and the biology of an alien, but at mind and heart, he is too human... too caring, too eager to do the right thing and too noble for his own good... Batman has stated many times that Supe's greatest weakness is not an irradiated stone, but that he has too much heart.

One of the reasons why I'm playing a Paladin in my D&D group... too much amoral anti-heroes there, and I always heard about the challenge of play a Paladin (or any Lawful Good character) the right way... BTW, now I have to check Supes vs The Elite, thanks for bring that up!

velvet_fog:For the love of God, just don't make Superman all dark and angsty. I hate how the fanboys have won and now everything has to be dark and serious or else they get their panties in a wad that directors aren't taking their favorite childhood hero/cartoon character seriously enough. Case in point: the persistent hate for the 60s Batman show. But it's a totally legit take on Batman. It was well-written, had good actors, and had a high budget (for its time). The writers knew exactly what they were doing and it works on different levels. It's a hell of a lot better then the dour and sanctimonious Dark Knight Rises and definitely better than the Burton/Schumacher messes of the 90s.

What I'm saying is - keep Superman lighthearted and don't turn him into Space Jesus. Not everything has to be dark and angry.

Let me help you out here.

The two Richard Donner Superman films hold up so well because they were tongue-in-cheek -- Donner was well aware he was making a film where the hero wore a spandex bodysuit and red cape.

I'd argue that the Iron Man movies have been so popular because they also don't take themselves too seriously, that they don't try to be deep character studies of what makes a super hero tick.

I actually enjoyed Superman in the DC cartoons, but mostly when Batman is around. They really complement each other well. I have not read enough Superman comics, but that was because I couldn't get into them. However, didn't they just hook up Superman and Wonder Woman to make them more relevant again? Also they did with match.com I guess too. http://mashable.com/2012/08/27/superman-wonder-woman/

DarkPascual:The thing to me is that Superman represents the BEST that humanity could achieve as a moral standpoint. He is potential fully realized. He is a god among men, who could easily just blow shiat to pieces, and crown himself king and rule as he sees fit... but he decides to put his unmeasurable power to serve others. He decides to fight the intergalactic tyrants, and mad scientist and mad gods that want to put the world under their iron fists... and he decides to do it because he feels that is the right thing to do.

Pretty much all super heroes do this. They either feel morally obligated to help others, or some event in their life compels them to use their powers or fortune for the betterment of mankind. One of the reasons I think Wolverine is such a popular super hero is because he falls outside of this common mold. He's self interested, but allows himself to get caught up in helping good guys fight bad guys (probably a more accurate reflection of how someone with super powers would act).

I know that it requires a certain degree of actual talent, but how interesting could be the story of a man that is pushed to be darker by enemies increasingly violent and dangerous and a world that keeps telling him that he is dumb and naive? Superman is someone that could see the world growing darker and darker and just stand on his principles and be determinate to be the last beacon of light if that's what is needed. And THAT is boring?

Well, this is pretty what Batman is all about. While Batman operates outside of the law, he doesn't resort to walking around with machine guns and killing people. No matter how vicious his enemies are, he sticks to his moral code. And the Nolan films have largely been about that -- that Batman is the "last beacon of light" despite being a vigilantly.

The problem with Superman, is that if there's never any real risk of him dying -- he's not risking his life to save humanity. At most, it disrupts his personal life. And it's hard to feel bad for someone who's omnipotent.

The problem with Superman isn't that the only thing that can hurt him is Kryptonite, or that the only memorable bad buy is Lex Luther, the problem is that Truth and Justice are no longer part of the American way.

For the love of God, just don't make Superman all dark and angsty. I hate how the fanboys have won and now everything has to be dark and serious or else they get their panties in a wad that directors aren't taking their favorite childhood hero/cartoon character seriously enough. Case in point: the persistent hate for the 60s Batman show. But it's a totally legit take on Batman. It was well-written, had good actors, and had a high budget (for its time). The writers knew exactly what they were doing and it works on different levels. It's a hell of a lot better then the dour and sanctimonious Dark Knight Rises and definitely better than the Burton/Schumacher messes of the 90s.

What I'm saying is - keep Superman lighthearted and don't turn him into Space Jesus. Not everything has to be dark and angry.

Batman has the cool gadgets, the cool car, the cool suit, the tragic past... he is probably my favorite superhero... but he is there along with Superman.

The thing to me is that Superman represents the BEST that humanity could achieve as a moral standpoint. He is potential fully realized. He is a god among men, who could easily just blow shiat to pieces, and crown himself king and rule as he sees fit... but he decides to put his unmeasurable power to serve others. He decides to fight the intergalactic tyrants, and mad scientist and mad gods that want to put the world under their iron fists... and he decides to do it because he feels that is the right thing to do.

I know that it requires a certain degree of actual talent, but how interesting could be the story of a man that is pushed to be darker by enemies increasingly violent and dangerous and a world that keeps telling him that he is dumb and naive? Superman is someone that could see the world growing darker and darker and just stand on his principles and be determinate to be the last beacon of light if that's what is needed. And THAT is boring?

Hell, I'm asking you to do "To Kill a Mockingbird" with Superpowers...

As much as I really like heroes like Batman or Iron Man or anti-heroes like Deadpool or Wolverine, I'm kinda tired of the cliches that come along the dark, brooding and cynical type of character. Superman and Captain America probably aren't the coolest, but they are good men, and those characters are needed too.