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Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

What is it about the smuggler's copter that doesn't impress? it gives you a guy that flies, does minimal damage and draws cards. and it usually only gets removed on the turn it becomes a creature. Isn't that kinda ok at least? Maybe compared to LutS it doesn't do enough.

with all the talk about the copter being bad, i thought about thopter foundry and sword of the meek. If we're worried about fliers, the combo basically gives us enough blockers to stone most attackers, and given a couple of turns, you'd probably be able to get yourself a small squadron of fliers. And its somewhat terminus and swords to plowshares-'proof'.
I suspect it's too colour intensive to get into play though. mine is built on 2 mox diamond and 4 lotus petal (i don't have the budget for 3 city if traitors). My brief testing (3 foundry/2 sword) has been tricky to get into play, but when i land a foundry, it gives us a pretty good clock/resiliency against a lot of problems (namely, that the opponent is still alive).

I had one question about opposing abrupt decays. we're just going to have to live with it, right?

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

Smuggler's Copter doesn't make the cut for me because it depends on another creature to do _anything_. And that's for a 2-mana artifact that itself eats creature removal if it's doing work, costs 3 under Thalia, and doesn't even actively support your usual primary win condition.

I've been using Thopter/Sword in a Transmute Artifact-heavy Grixis list to some success. It's evolved into my preferred wincon in a number of matchups (UR Delver, Show and Tell). I think it's a very potent solution to a number of the archetype's inherent problems.

Duergar Hedge-Mage is a strong card, but I'd be wary of its conditional nature. Its flexibility might trump that, but if your opponent can potentially use their spare Wasteland to deny you your artifact removal trigger, that's just gotta get to hurt you at times, I'm afraid.

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

I'm just providing insight as to my experiences. I'd say the sample size was small only because it was one event, but fifteen rounds was pretty indicative of what the format - for me at least - is comprised of and what kind of cards caused problems both internally and externally for the deck from an architectural and interactive dynamic. Smuggler's Copter is a good card, but I don't like and didn't like the way it did nothing many times and became another dead draw when I needed something better or more useful. That negative became a liability in a majority of cases for me, which is why I don't like it going forward. The card filter for me isn't as good as Light up the Stage with other options. (But as I said, playing both is still perfectly viable.)

One thing I'm reconsidering in the main is Viashino Heretic - if only because the damage it can do from its activated ability enables Stage (potentially). The three toughness can become relevant like its Painter counterpart to stop Snapcasters and Dark Confidants from attacking - I'm just pondering if the wait-a-turn thing is more important than the ability of the card in general.

I think many cards that are incidentally good against Depths (and good against it in general) are key going forward. I think it will represent a healthy portion of the meta - larger events especially - because it isn't expensive to build and is very competitive. Blood Moon in that regard becomes scary to play against it as I mentioned because of the rule change a while back.

Miracles is Miracles like I said; you just have to grind that match-up out early and stockpile Blasts for Jaces and Snapcasters (or Swords early enough if you have Painter). And there are just times where naturally Grindstoning an opponent can win you games, if for nothing else it messes up their Counterbalance triggers or Portent-based Terminus.

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

I feel like I'm the only one who has drawn dead 5 turns in a row and spent the whole time pining for a Smuggler's Copter.
Based on Michael Kellerman's results I went to 2 Ethersworn, 3 Copter, and 2 LutS and I like it. I'm open to 2 Copter, 3 LutS, but repeat filtering plus non-negligible clock (with evasion) has high appeal for me.

Originally Posted by Michael Keller

I think many cards that are incidentally good against Depths (and good against it in general) are key going forward. I think it will represent a healthy portion of the meta - larger events especially - because it isn't expensive to build and is very competitive. Blood Moon in that regard becomes scary to play against it as I mentioned because of the rule change a while back.

What's the rules change with Blood Moon and Depths?

Last edited by Mirrislegend; 03-06-2019 at 10:40 AM.

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

<Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
<System> Player Lost

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

Originally Posted by Michael Keller

Smuggler's Copter is a good card, but I don't like and didn't like the way it did nothing many times and became another dead draw when I needed something better or more useful. That negative became a liability in a majority of cases for me, which is why I don't like it going forward. The card filter for me isn't as good as Light up the Stage with other options. (But as I said, playing both is still perfectly viable.)

Exactly my feeling on the card. When you have Copter and beasties, all is great, but when there are no beasties around, Copter really makes me very sad.

Originally Posted by Michael Keller

One thing I'm reconsidering in the main is Viashino Heretic - if only because the damage it can do from its activated ability enables Stage (potentially). The three toughness can become relevant like its Painter counterpart to stop Snapcasters and Dark Confidants from attacking - I'm just pondering if the wait-a-turn thing is more important than the ability of the card in general.

I really love heretic! Been playing him for a long time and I love having him over Vandal or Hedge-Mage.

Originally Posted by Michael Keller

I think many cards that are incidentally good against Depths (and good against it in general) are key going forward. I think it will represent a healthy portion of the meta - larger events especially - because it isn't expensive to build and is very competitive. Blood Moon in that regard becomes scary to play against it as I mentioned because of the rule change a while back.

I was thinking on switching to Blood Sun just for Depths (as it is a large portion of the current meta) but I'm doubting wether it should be in the board (as backup for moon) or just plain replace Moon in the main. Both have their uses in very different cases. Hard decisions to take!

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

Keep in mind that Jack has also had a lot of success with Copter, so this may be more opinionated at this point. It just didn't work well for me during the course of the event, with effectively the same number of creatures.

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

Exactly my feeling on the card. When you have Copter and beasties, all is great, but when there are no beasties around, Copter really makes me very sad.

I really love heretic! Been playing him for a long time and I love having him over Vandal or Hedge-Mage.

I was thinking on switching to Blood Sun just for Depths (as it is a large portion of the current meta) but I'm doubting wether it should be in the board (as backup for moon) or just plain replace Moon in the main. Both have their uses in very different cases. Hard decisions to take!

Doesbt blood sun also remove cones into play triggers (ie comes into play with 10 ice counters on dark depths)?

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

Pithing Needle has been suggested. It should probably do the job of shutting off Stage, given Hanna's Custody and the usual Painter's Servant + Blasts.

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

<Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
<System> Player Lost

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

@ Mirrislegend- HAHA. I know why we run blast, I did write the primer and all...

I just wanted to make it clear that the card doesn't directly address Terminus, but the STP, Snapcaster, STP sequence, which is very valuable. I will say that year ago the card never really panned out but it is likely the meta has changed in a manner to make it favorable.

The idea of a different draw engine than Copter is intriguing to say the least. Copter does a lot, but I think it is sort of a 4, 1, or 0 play. You either always want it as a focal point of the way you play and sequence the deck or its a tutorable option for the right situation(although I will be honest that I am not sure what that situation is).

I will always be fan of a streamlined and consistent deck, and so my preference will always be for more 4 of in the deck.

That being said I am speaking totally hypothetically as I have played the deck probably 4 times in the last 6 months, and probably less than ten events since we did the reworking of the deck back in the spring last year. I have found myself focusing more on Old School these days, but I still lurk with my pet deck.

Hollywood- I really like the ideas you are testing. I do think Walking Ballista should always be in the deck as it is just so strong in so many match ups. But other than that I have little to add. While Cratermaker seems fantastic, I will be honest, I have yet to pick any up, so I have never tested it.

I have spoken with and thought of testing with Jack some if work lets up. In the mean time keep painting. And free Ned Leeds...

Seth

Öno matter how much you think you love somebody, youíll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

Yes Hanna's Custody was tested years ago, I mean the card is nearly 2 decades at this point. It may be better suited in the current meta, but for me the card was never impactful enough when cast. I can see it as a sideboard option to fight the STP, Snap, STP engine or the Kolghan's Command sequencing. But for 3 mana you really need a lot, and I am not sure losing Welder and an inability to interact with your opponents hate artifacts is worth it. I will admit testing should be done, but in the past the card didn't do enough and it isn't like the format as slowed down or reduced consistency amongst decks since then.

You might be able to read about some of that testing in the older threads. I think the front page has links to the older threads that are archived.

Seth

Öno matter how much you think you love somebody, youíll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

Originally Posted by sroncor1

Yes Hanna's Custody was tested years ago, I mean the card is nearly 2 decades at this point. It may be better suited in the current meta, but for me the card was never impactful enough when cast. I can see it as a sideboard option to fight the STP, Snap, STP engine or the Kolghan's Command sequencing. But for 3 mana you really need a lot, and I am not sure losing Welder and an inability to interact with your opponents hate artifacts is worth it. I will admit testing should be done, but in the past the card didn't do enough and it isn't like the format as slowed down or reduced consistency amongst decks since then.

You might be able to read about some of that testing in the older threads. I think the front page has links to the older threads that are archived.

Seth

Well, seeing as I most want it for StP, Snap, StP and KCommand, Snap, KCommand, I think its definitely primo sideboard material for the hard control matchups. Miracles occasionally has a Engineered Explosives in the SB. Grixis Control has more relevant stuff; usually 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Nihil Spellbomb. I'm guessing its worth the risk, but I won't know until I try. That'll be the first time I want Engineered Explosives vs Grixis Control.

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

<Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
<System> Player Lost

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

Thanks, Seth.

I think Custody as a singleton (or pair with an additional option out of the sideboard) is a bit more viable at this point in time. I do not, however, assume it is optimal - what I suggest is that based on my experiences, I noticed there were so many times where opponents would have succumbed to the combination of Painter's Servant and Grindstone with this in play. I tried it out a few weeks before the event and I liked what I saw.

The Welder interaction can be awkward, but it also depends on the scenario and when you're bringing it in. Assuming you play H.C. and it sticks, your combo is - for all intents and purposes - fail-safe, in addition to ensuring that Blasts are never dead in hand when a Painter resolves naming "blue." For as good as Welder always can be, there are times and match-ups where the investment of a single option like H.C. completely nullifies opposition as opposed to Welder - which dies much easier.

Death and Taxes is another example, where it would blank Swords to Plowshares, enable Blasts, stop Flickerwisp on an artifact of yours, protects Bridge and protects the combo. Dealing with Welder is much easier because it has an activated ability and can be killed by most removal. H.C. is extremely difficult to deal with, and I just think as a game gets drawn out it shores up a lot of situations where an opponent might be comfortably sitting on removal or answers.

This card shuts that all down completely and opens the door for a clean win upon resolution of the combo. Few other cards in Legacy fit that bill in a deck like Painter - the only other two being Spellskite and Welder (both good cards, but not so good later in the game where H.C. off the top is much, much better).

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

Great run and nice report, Michael! Unlucky to miss out on Top 8 in the last couple of rounds, but definitely confirms that the deck has legs in the hands of a seasoned painter.

Interesting to see new options being considered like Light Up the Stage. I have to say, not having played with it, the card does not seem good, particularly when in order to fit it in, one of the prime ways the deck has of getting in for damage (copter) is being cut to accommodate it (but more on our favourite chopper in a bit). The failcase is a worse divination, which is not a card I think any deck in legacy has any business playing to begin with. It's a tempo-negative play that doesn't dig particularly deepóit's less likely to find a combo piece than even just a cantrip, so I think if that's the play pattern we're looking for there are better options. Even if we're reliably triggering spectacle, that doesn't change the fact that it only lets you see two extra cards, and doesn't even play nicely with Welder or provide cards in hand to loot away.

Of course, take this with a pinch of salt as I haven't tested the card, but I'm curious as to what the main motivation is for looking at it as an option. These builds of Painter have always been more-or-less pedal-to-the-metal decks, about flinging your hand out there with some lock/disruptive elements (canonist/moon) and hoping for the best in terms of that being enough to hamper your opponent long enough to combo, with a secondary grindy/dorks plan facilitated by onboard CA engines like Recruiter.

When you don't have ways to catch up onboard, playing a relatively expensive spell for card advantage (that doesn't stick around, meaning that it plays poorly with reactive spells like blast) seems suboptimal to me. Decks that can afford to play straight-up card advantage spells, like Accumulated Knowledge out of Miracles, have things that restore parity (terminus) or answer spells without needing to access mana (force) or utilise the flexibility of instants to be able to leave up answers and then cast AK if the answer isn't necessary at that time (counterspell, snapcaster).

Notice that a deck like Grixis Control, which also plays a bunch of 2-for-1s, has to play ones that affect the board directly, like Baleful Strix and Kolaghan's Command. This is because playing those cards (answers that generate CA) allow you to take the time to outgrind your opponent and prevent you from falling behind incrementally to the point where simply having access to more resources means you win the game.

How this applies to Shortcake is that Smuggler's Copter lets you advance your secondary gameplan (killing your opponent with random dorks) while also providing card selection. Top (oh how we miss thee) also provided selection, and while it didn't affect the board in as direct a way, being an artifact played much better with the rest of the deck, and it also let you see so many more cards than something like Light Up the Stage.

To anticipate a response regarding Copter: colo rightly points out that Smuggler's Copter does nothing on its own, but I think the fact that it does something (and quite a lot, at that) in combination with almost a third of the other cards you play (17+ creatures, with recruiters even finding you a backup) mean that you should generally have something to crew it with. There are certainly times when you have two Copters and no creatures, but statistically that shouldn't happen very often. A question for those who have found it to be lacklustreódo you generally find it's poor because your creatures have all been removed or because you don't draw enough of them?

As far as Hanna's Custody goes, despite having played with it only a handful of times, I found its clunkiness in combination with Welder and lack of impact on the board to be problematic. If you're only playing it as a 1-of, you can't rely on it being present early enough to allow you to play it before playing the things that it protects. This, in turn, means that you're going to keep trying to play your game, and if your threats get removed before it comes down, chances are you're going to not have much left that it actually protects.

Additionally, the decks that we are talking about bringing it in against mostly have answers. Miracles can remove Custody with Disenchant or Council's Judgement, for example, and can also counter it in a pinch, and playing a card that does stone-cold nothing at first if it does resolve seems antithetical to a gameplan that involves trimming the fat as much as possible (removing petals) and trying to make it difficult for them to remove all our threats by surgicalling their swords. Sure, Grixis doesn't have good answers beyond Force to Hanna's Custody, and forcing the Force (as it were) might be worthwhile in that matchup. But the same goes for Leonin Abunas, which is another option in that slot that, while being one mana more expensive, at least vaguely impacts the board and is easier to tutor for than Custody.

(Yes, Custody can be Enlightened Tutored for, but it's rare that you can afford to burn a 'slow' tutor on a non-combo piece if it's not winning you the game outright (cf. Blood Moon) because of how tempo-negative the card is and the extent to which that affects finding further gas.)

As far as Goblin Cratermaker vs Manic Vandal, I definitely hear you that it's awkward when you can't kill a Chalice because there's a Painter in play. That said, it's usually going to be clear when that is going to be a relevant concern, and can be mitigated by tight play and consciousness of the issue. What Cratermaker brings in spades is flexibility, not least being good enough all round to justify a slot in the maindeck, which gives you a lot of game against a variety of things pre-sideboard. I don't think the format is slow enough for a card like Viashino Heretic to shine. I've lost a number of games that I would otherwise have won due to the fact that it can't activate when you play it, and I think it's really tough to justify playing a card in the maindeck that is a vanilla 1/3 for 3 in a fair few matchups. My experience has been that Cratermaker has been the real deal for the deck.

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

Originally Posted by jasper

surgicalling their swords

I never thought of Surgical Extraction as a card relevant to control matchups. However, I suppose it makes sense when you consider control decks to be threat-light and answer-dependent. Surgicalling StP vs Miracles or KCommand vs Grixis Control would go a long way towards swinging those matchups.

Any other non-graveyard decks where you'd recommend boarding in Surgicals? Despite StP and Snapcaster, I'm torn if Surgical is correct vs UW Delver.

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

<Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
<System> Player Lost

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

Well, gut reaction says that against control, the clock isnít as important, so surgical works fine. Against wu stoneblade, they have a relevant clock, and negative tempo of a surgical puts us too far behind when we need to be pushing things forwards. I might be wrong tho.
Maybe if itís possible to surgical a critical threat? But itís no guarantee itíd be possible to hit.

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

Re: [Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

I love it. I can't wait to hear how it goes. Won't you need a bunch of extra mana sources to cast that 5 drop? 4th City and maybe some SSGs? SSG and Doll are awkward with Light Up the Stage. Whatever, I'm sure it will be a blast.

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

<Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
<System> Player Lost

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"