Jehovah’s Witnesses are generally respected as a friendly, polite, law abiding people. It is hard for an outsider to envision a Jehovah’s Witness being rude, insulting or cruel.

But despite Witnesses having mostly admirable qualities as individuals, the leadership of the religion is coming under increasing scrutiny for some of its more disturbing practices – especially that of shunning former members.

When you challenge a Jehovah’s Witness on their religion’s treatment of disfellowshipped or disassociated former members, you will typically be met with a response that goes something like this: “We do this as an act of loving discipline out of loyalty to God’s command.”

Those on the receiving end will reply to this by pointing out that ostracism to the point of not speaking to someone is anything but “loving,” and this sort of behavior has driven shunned ones to depression and even suicide.

But what about shunning being “God’s command?”

It turns out when you consult the Scriptures, the biblical justification for Watchtower’s disfellowshipping policy is flimsy at best. In fact, there are 14 verses I will point to in this article that either question or flatly contradict this controversial rule.

Before listing these verses, perhaps it would be helpful to briefly go through the Bible verses commonly invoked in support of disfellowshipping, along with the basic reasons why I believe these are misapplied.

Bible verses used to support JW shunning

1. Deuteronomy 21:20, 21; 22: 23, 24

and say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, and he refuses to obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of his city must stone him to death. So you must remove what is bad from your midst, and all Israel will hear and become afraid. … If a virgin is engaged to a man, and another man happens to meet her in the city and lies down with her, you should bring them both out to the gate of that city and stone them to death, the girl because she did not scream in the city and the man because he humiliated the wife of his fellow man. So you must remove what is evil from your midst.

Are we really supposed to stone sinners to death? The law of Moses was supposedly nailed to Jesus’ torture stake (Col 2:14), which is why we’re no longer executing adulterers (or rape victims who don’t scream!).

If you are a Witness, before you say “But that’s an extreme example! The organization would never use those verses in defense of shunning!”, please consult the Organized book on page 140.

2. Matthew 10:34-37

Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.

When read in context, this passage is clearly describing Jesus’ followers being shunned by their unbelieving family members, not vice versa.

3. 1 Corinthians 5:5-7, 11-13

you must hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven ferments the whole batch of dough? Clear away the old leaven so that you may be a new batch, inasmuch as you are free from ferment. For, indeed, Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed. … But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

There is obviously a difference between not “keeping company” or socializing (i.e. dining) with someone and ignoring them as though they don’t exist – not even speaking to them. And “anyone called a brother” needn’t be applied even to family members. Even Watchtower makes allowances in this regard, allowing a disfellowshipped husband to remain with his wife and permitting children to continue living with their disfellowshipped parents. Also, 2 Thessalonians chapter 3 sheds more light on 1 Corinthians chapter 5, as I will explain later.

4. 1 Timothy 1:20

Hymenaeus and Alexander are among these, and I have handed them over to Satan so that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme.

“Handed over to Satan” does not specify shunning as practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

5. 1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort.

This verse merely describes those who stop believing, or “disassociate.” It does not advise that believers should shun such ones.

6. 2 John 7-11

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Look out for yourselves, so that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

This verse is talking about “antichrists” who deny Jesus. Clearly, not all who are disfellowshipped cease to be believing Christians. Even those who do cease to be religious needn’t be shunned according to this verse, because it is contradicted by another Bible verse that I will come to later.

Obviously there are other Bible verses appealed to by Watchtower when it comes to promoting the practice of shunning (verses describing the divine execution of certain Israelites, e.g. Aaron’s sons or Korah and his followers, spring to mind) but for the sake of argument I have tried to focus on the most compelling and/or prominently-used scriptures.

Bible verses that contradict JW shunning

Having breezed through the Bible verses most regularly appealed to by Watchtower in defense of its shunning policy we can now get stuck in to the verses that contradict it. And it turns out there are more than you might think.

For the purpose of brevity I will only partially quote some of the longer verses quoted, but I would recommend looking up and reading the cited passages in their entirety, particularly if you are skeptical about the way I am applying them.

1. Matthew 5:43-48

“You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemiesand to pray for those who persecute you, so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

You cannot love your enemy in any meaningful sense if you refuse to talk to him or her. This verse also gives context to Matthew chapter 18, which I will mention later, since there Jesus said that avowed sinners should be treated as being “of the nations” (in other words, no longer “brothers”) and here he is saying that his followers should take no pride in only greeting their brothers.

2. Matthew 9:10-13

Later as he was dining in the house, look! many tax collectors and sinners came and began dining with Jesus and his disciples. But on seeing this, the Pharisees said to his disciples: “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” Hearing them, he said: “Healthy people do not need a physician, but those who are ill do. Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.”

Jesus here advocated the principle that, just because someone is a sinner, this does not mean they should be shunned. In fact shunning makes it impossible to help someone correct their course. Mercy, according to Jesus, was the dominant consideration.

It’s also interesting to note that Jesus’ eating with sinners was a continuing source of irritation for the Jewish religious leaders, specifically in the synoptic gospels. If Jesus wanted to leave his followers with the impression that sinners were to be shunned and avoided, he did an appalling job. (Compare Matthew 11:19, Mark 2:16, Luke 5:30; 7:34; 15:1, 2)

Jesus was rebuked by the Jewish religious leaders for socializing with sinners (Image source: JW.org)

3. Matthew 18:15-17

“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.“

No allowance here for kangaroo court-style judicial committees made up of Jehovah’s Witness elders. Rather, believers were to sort out grievances between themselves. Also, since Jesus ate with tax collectors (as we have already established), clearly JW-style total avoidance wasn’t on the menu even in the worst case scenario.

4. Luke 6:27

“But I say to you who are listening: Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you“

Again, it’s impossible to love someone or do good to them if you are refusing to acknowledge their existence. And we are talking here about “enemies” who “hate” believers. Most disfellowshipped Jehovah’s Witnesses I know of have nothing but love for their believing family but are shunned all the same.

5. Luke 6:35-37

“On the contrary, continue to love your enemies and to do good and to lend without hoping for anything back; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind toward the unthankful and wicked. Continue being merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Moreover, stop judging, and you will by no means be judged; and stop condemning, and you will by no means be condemned. Keep on forgiving, and you will be forgiven“

Again, you cannot show kindness toward “the unthankful and wicked” by shunning them. Jesus warned his followers to be forgiving rather than judgmental, reminding them that mercy should be the preeminent factor. Can separating someone from their loved ones be considered merciful?

6. Luke 10:25-37

But wanting to prove himself righteous, the man said to Jesus: “Who really is my neighbor?” In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell victim to robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went off, leaving him half-dead. Now by coincidence a priest was going down on that road, but when he saw him, he passed by on the opposite side. Likewise, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the opposite side. But a certain Samaritan traveling the road came upon him, and at seeing him, he was moved with pity. So he approached him and bandaged his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them. Then he mounted him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said: ‘Take care of him, and whatever you spend besides this, I will repay you when I return.’ Who of these three seems to you to have made himself neighbor to the man who fell victim to the robbers?” He said: “The one who acted mercifully toward him.” Jesus then said to him: “Go and do the same yourself.”

In Jesus’ famous parable, which I consider to be the most beautiful passage in the Bible, the true neighbor turned out to be the heretic (the Samaritan) who had what Jews considered to be apostate religious beliefs, and it was precisely such a neighbor to whom his followers were reminded to show love.

7. Luke chapter 15

Now all the tax collectors and the sinners kept gathering around him to hear him. And both the Pharisees and the scribes kept muttering: “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” Then he told them this illustration, saying: “What man among you with 100 sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the 99 behind in the wilderness and go after the lost one until he finds it? And when he has found it, he puts it on his shoulders and rejoices. … In the same way, I tell you, joy arises among the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Then he said: “A man had two sons. And the younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of the property that should come to me.’ So he divided his belongings between them. A few days later, the younger son gathered all his things together and traveled to a distant country and there squandered his property by living a debauched life. When he had spent everything,a severe famine occurred throughout that country, and he fell into need. He even went and attached himself to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to herd swine. And he longed to be filled with the carob pods that the swine were eating, but no one would give him anything. “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have more than enough bread, while I am dying here from hunger! I will get up and travel to my father and say to him: “Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy of being called your son. Make me as one of your hired men.”’ So he got up and went to his father. While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him and was moved with pity, and he ran and embraced him and tenderly kissed him. Then the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy of being called your son.’ But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quick! bring out a robe, the best one, and clothe him with it, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. Also bring the fattened calf, slaughter* it, and let us eat and celebrate, for this son of mine was dead but has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they started to enjoy themselves. … ‘But we just had to celebrate and rejoice, for your brother was dead but has come to life; he was lost and has been found.’”

This chapter of the Bible, when read in context and fully contemplated, is dynamite to Watchtower’s shunning policy, which is probably why it rarely features in material on how disfellowshipped ones are to be treated.

Notice that the entire reason for Jesus launching into the parable of the prodigal son was that he had again been chastised for being too friendly with sinners. He responded by reminding his accusers that it was impossible to help someone or be a good example by refusing to interact with them.

In the parable itself, Jesus describes an errant son who only returns after exhausting his funds, making it impossible to continue his debauched lifestyle. Such a person would be disfellowshipped by Jehovah’s Witness elders for only exhibiting “worldly sadness.”

Worldly sadness, according to Watchtower, “mourns the unpleasant consequences wrongdoing brings. But it does not mourn over the unrighteousness itself, or the reproach it brings on God.​” (w72 7/15 p. 438) Furthermore, it is telling that the father runs to embrace his son “while he was still a long way off” – in other words, before any repentance could be determined.

The father ran to welcome his prodigal son while he was “still a long way off” (Image source: JW.org)

8. 2 Corinthians 2:1-7

For I have made up my mind not to come to you again in sadness. For if I make you sad, who will be there to cheer me up except the one I saddened? I wrote what I did, so that when I come I may not be saddened by those over whom I ought to rejoice, because I have confidence that what brings me joy brings all of you the same joy. For out of much tribulation and anguish of heart I wrote you with many tears, not to sadden you, but to let you know the depth of love I have for you. Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of you to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say.This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man; now you should instead kindly forgive and comfort him, so that he may not be overwhelmed by excessive sadness.

Interestingly, in his follow-up letter to 1 Corinthians (in which the most direct counsel on the treatment of wrongdoers is given) Paul sounds a vague note of regret at what he had written, or at least how it had been interpreted. (“For if I make you sad, who will be there to cheer me up except the one I saddened?”) He reminds the congregation of the need for forgiveness lest the wrongdoer “be overwhelmed by excessive sadness,” and even suggests that a “rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man.” This indicates it is not necessary for each and every individual in a congregation to “rebuke” a wrongdoer. It was possible, in Paul’s mind, to apply his words too harshly.

9. Colossians 3:13, 14

Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely even if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Just as Jehovah freely forgave you, you must also do the same. But besides all these things, clothe yourselves with love, for it is a perfect bond of union.

Self explanatory! Are you really putting up with someone or freely forgiving them by treating them as though they don’t exist?

10. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8; 9-12

For this is the will of God, that you should be holy and abstain from sexual immorality. Each one of you should know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not with greedy, uncontrolled sexual passion like the nations have that do not know God. No one should go beyond proper limits and take advantage of his brother in this matter, because Jehovah exacts punishment for all these things, just as we told you previously and also strongly warned you. For God has called us, not for uncleanness, but for holiness. So, then, the man who disregards this is disregarding, not man, but God, who gives you his holy spirit. … However, concerning brotherly love, you do not need us to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another. In fact, you are doing so toward all the brothers in all of Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to go on doing so in fuller measure. Make it your aim to live quietly and to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we instructed you, so that you may walk decently in the eyes of people outside and not need anything.

Paul repeatedly expressed his belief that the punishment of wrongdoers was in the hereafter rather than the here and now

Paul believed that God would punish wrongdoers, and it was God, not man, to whom they were accountable. This is a recurring theme in Paul’s writings, namely judgment in the hereafter rather than the here and now.

Believing Christians were not to take punishment into their own hands. They were to “love one another” and “mind their own business.”

Can Jehovah’s Witness elders who investigate and interrogate congregation members over accused wrongdoing (to the extent of delving into sexual matters in gratuitous detail) be considered to be minding their own business? Can it be considered evidence of “brotherly love” to behave in such a manner?

11. 1 Thessalonians 5:14, 15

On the other hand, we urge you, brothers, to warn the disorderly, speak consolingly to those who are depressed, support the weak, be patient toward all. See that no one repays injury for injury to anyone, but always pursue what is good toward one another and to all others.

Again, self explanatory. You cannot “support the weak” by ostracizing them and weaponizing family relationships against them. Patience is required, as is the avoidance of vindictive, judgmental behavior, i.e. repaying “injury for injury” through excessive discipline.

12. 2 Thessalonians 3:6-15

Now we are giving you instructions, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother who is walking disorderly and not according to the tradition that you received from us. For you yourselves know how you should imitate us, because we did not behave in a disorderly way among you, nor did we eat anyone’s food free. … For we hear that some are walking disorderly among you, not working at all, but meddling with what does not concern them. To such people we give the order and exhortation in the Lord Jesus Christ that they should work quietly and eat food they themselves earn. For your part, brothers, do not give up in doing good. But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked and stop associating with him, so that he may become ashamed. And yet do not consider him an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.

If you read 2 Thessalonians chapter 3 and compare it with 1 Corinthians chapter 5 you find both passages are discussing the same problem of how to deal with wrongdoers.

Rather than being separate instructions – one for “disfellowshipping” (1 Corinthians) one for “marking” (2 Thessalonians) – Paul makes clear that the recommendation to merely “stop associating” (socializing) with “disorderly” ones applies to all the behavior outlined in “this letter” of 2 Thessalonians (see verse 14) which in the previous chapter includes a rebuke of the “man of lawlessness” who “did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Remember 2 John 10 (cited earlier) where readers were told to ostracize the “antichrists” among them by not receiving them into their homes or saying a greeting to them? Well, here we have different instructions. Paul’s suggested punishment for such ones was far less extreme. As far as he was concerned, the “man of lawlessness” who “stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship” could be dealt with more leniently, because it was for Jesus to “do away” with such ones “by the manifestation of his presence” if they failed to correct their course. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

Again, Paul apparently believed that morbid fear of the impending destruction of wrongdoers was sufficient motivation to bring them to their senses, hence his repeated counsel for Christians to not take matters into their own hands.

Even when describing believers distancing themselves from “disorderly” ones among them, this was only to be done to a limited degree, i.e. by refraining from “keeping company,” eating with, or “associating” with such a person – and, even then, they were to “continue admonishing him as a brother.”

13. 1 Timothy 5:8

Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith

If you are not providing materially or emotionally for a family member, perhaps because you have been persuaded to shun him or her by religious zealots, you are worse than a person without faith.

14. Hebrews 10:26-31

For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? For we know the One who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Interestingly, this verse was cited in a 1947 Awake! article titled “Are You Also Excommunicated?” (g47 1/8 pp. 27, 28) – an article that predated Watchtower’s practice of disfellowshipping, which wasn’t introduced until 1952. (Scans are available here and here.)

The article argued strongly that excommunication, which Watchtower has equated to disfellowshipping (see “Expelling” in Insight Vol. 1), is an instrument of “ecclesiastical power and secular tyranny,” “not without pagan influence,” that is “altogether foreign to biblical teachings.”

The verse from Hebrews chosen by Watchtower to argue this point again highlights Paul’s belief that punishment was exclusively God’s remit, not that of men.

Cruel, unbiblical, and detrimental to Watchtower’s aims

So next time a Jehovah’s Witness tells you that, by shunning their disfellowshipped family member, they are following God’s command, politely remind them that the New Testament is strewn with cautions to show love and mercy, and to refrain from being judgmental or taking punishment into one’s own hands.

Even Paul, Watchtower’s poster boy when arguing in favor of shunning, believed that sinners were answerable to God alone, and seemed to express regret to the Corinthians that the advice he gave them in his first letter could have resulted in “excessive sadness” when ruthlessly implemented.

But the biggest irony of Watchtower’s shunning policy is that, in addition to being cruel and unbiblical, it is actually detrimental to the organization’s aims. If the Governing Body were to reverse their policy of shunning, their organization would instantly shed a large portion of its cult reputation making it easier to attract new converts.

Yes, there would inevitably be an exodus if Witnesses were allowed to vote with their feet or were otherwise no longer bound to a captive organization. But whoever remains (I believe we would still be talking in the order of millions) could be truly considered devout believers whose loyalty to the organization would be beyond question.

Sadly, the penny is unlikely to drop any time soon. The Governing Body have wedded themselves to the shunning policy they inherited from their 1980s forebears in a string of Watchtower articles and propaganda videos reinforcing the rule to shun disfellowshipped family members (there were two video dramatizations in 2016 alone).

The stubbornness of these men knows no bounds. Their delusion is not only ruining lives for former members, it is also self-destructive both for the organization and its members who are forced to bypass their humanity in order to comply with “God’s commands.”

It is for this reason that JWsurvey remains committed to highlighting the abusive policies inflicted on Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do not deserve to be exploited, threatened or lied to. Even though the “faithful slave” seem unmoved by the suffering they are causing, we who feel the brunt of their cruelty are appealing to the outside world loudly and persistently, and the media and various law-makers and influencers are starting to take an interest. Slowly but surely, our voices are being heard.

* All scripture quotations are from the New World Translation, 2013 revision (obviously!)

** It should be noted that, despite quoting from the Bible and arguing along theological lines, the author of this article is an atheist. I am no longer persuaded that the Bible is a sound moral authority for reasons I have explained on my YouTube channel. However, even though there was nothing stopping the Bible writers from advocating shunning as currently practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses, it turns out this is not the case when examining their writings (or it can be said their advice on the treatment of wrongdoers is inconsistent at best).

Aw! resister, so sorry to hear your leaving us, friendships
can be formed sight unseen and I looked forward to your
perceptive comments and anarchic wit and humour,
I count you as a friend as I’m sure others here also do.
Wish you hadn’t uttered the ultimatum leaving yourself
no way back, good luck buddy.

Resister, I for one appreciate your comments. Ted described your humor as anarchic wit and if fits you. You express your thoughts vigorously and that may lead to reactions. Eyes opened expressed her opinions politely and addressed to you.
As for having an addiction to the site, I suppose that everyone of us has the same phases to go through when exiting the JW cult. Some linge somewhat longer in one or another, then we all move on.
best

The JW’s faith and their believes must be so WEAK and without SUBSTANCE, if for someone that claims to be so strong in their faith, can’t even listen to or have a conversation with another person with differing views and opinions. The JW’s governing body know that their believes are based on flimsy, man made and self interest interpretation of the bible, that will not stand up to logical and sound reasons. Perhaps that is why the governing body forbids any JW to have a conversation with any normal, sane, logical and a person that is capable to thinking and working things out for him/herself.

@Freedom, a reasonable person would agree with that. However, the true believers see that Satan is ready to use ANY opportunity to attack their faith and make them doubting Peters (as in Peter when he started to sink rather than walk on the water) or doubting Thomases. So as to protect themselves fully, they must close their minds to any thought or influence which does not agree with what they know to be the truth.

I remember as a teenager, reacting to the Watchtower cover ‘Do you have an open mind?’ I said to the field service conductor, “It seems strange to be asking other people to have an open mind when we don’t. ”
He answered, “We don’t need an open mind. We have the truth. ”

Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to get a sensible answer from the elders when we have questions that come up in our minds, because these guys are not used to thinking and reasoning things out; they just accept unquestioningly. Because that is what submission means . And as a witness the most important thing is submission. Just accept what the faithful and discreet slave says. There is no need to understand it.

Ricardo….their was a time when you would never say something like that. You’ve been thinking and your words give meaning to the phrase – ‘reason is the Devils harlot’. You’ve just described what goes on in the minds of all believers of any faith and how they must lie to themselves and others to keep the faith alive.’ Are you willing to apply those observations to yourself?
‘A lie told once remains a lie. A lie told a thousand times becomes the truth’ – Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Propaganda Minister.

It’s not about standing up for truth but bowing down in submission. The truth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses version of “truth”, is a constantly morphing and changing value. A constantly moving target. What is considered ridiculous today just may be the “truth” tomorrow.

For example, we used to poke fun at those in Christendom who believed in the “rapture”, Christians who would be taken into heaven without dying first. As of 2013, the Watchtower July 15 pg 10,11 shows exactly that in a drawing of their time of the end timeline. It specially states that the remnant of Christ’s Kingdom heirs would be removed from earth before Armageddon begins! This is really a big, important doctrinal change that was not discussed in the lesson and as a result many Witnesses, including the elders, don’t know of this change.

So with the revealing of this fabulous ‘New Light’, Christendom has proven to have the correct interpretation after all and Jehovah’s Witnesses are forced to play doctrinal catch-up. The same can be said of who compose the ‘superior authorities’. The Witnesses were saying for decades it was Jehovah and Jesus but after WW2 were forced to concede that the superior authorities were the worldly governments; just as Christendom had believed for years.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are a 1984, Orwellian, mind control cult. Period! As you said Ricardo, the Witnesses must accept everything that comes from Walkill without question or face the consequences, as you well know, of their non adherence to the new prevailing beliefs. And you can believe that Big Brother sees and hears all, especially dissidents, those who dare question and complainers.

But no worries though, the doctrines of today can change just like the weather! Just carry your umbrella and be prepared for the thousand year reign. Ha, ha!

This fellow while not trying to be was a real character was. Years later I turned him in to WT while blowing the whistle on some elders in another congregation over another issue. When I was with him the WT study conductor told me to cut my wife’s allowance to put pressure on her to comment during the Watchtower. Of course I didn’t. But the next meeting after the direction was given, and all subsequent meetings this joker and the WT conductor refused to call on me. So let me retract my first sentence, the guy would to some people try to be a prick.

I think in that talk about the foreplay he referred to that Jew who spilled his semen on the ground not to have children. So he taught if you ejaculate before intercourse your act is sinning against God.

A letter to all circuit and district overseers from Brooklyn Bethel, dated Sept. 1, 1980 photocopied with letterhead on pages341 341-342 in CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE reads in part:

“Page 2

Keep in mind that to be disfellowshiped, an apostate does not have to be a promoter of apostate views. As mentioned in paragraph two, page 17 of the August 1,1980, Watchtower, “The word ‘apostasy ‘ comes from a Greek term that means ” a standing away from, a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment. ” Therefore, if a baptized Christian abandons the teachings of Jehovah, as presented by the faithful and discreet slave, and persists in believing other doctrine despite Scriptural reproof, then he is apostisizing. Extended kindly efforts should be put forth to readjust his thinking. However, if, after such extended efforts have been put forth to readjust his thinking, he continues to believe the apostate ideas and rejects what he has been provided through the ‘slave class, ‘ then appropriate judicial action should be taken. “

Big B are you familiar with the letter to all circuit and district overseers photocopied in the 4 the edition of CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE on pages341 -342 in CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE that reads in part :” Page 2
Keep in mind that to be disfellowshiped, an apostate does not have to be a promoter of apostate views. As mentioned in paragraph two, page 17 of the August 1,1980, Watchtower, ” The word ‘apostasy ‘ comes from a Greek term that means ‘a standing away from, a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment.’ Therefore, if a baptized Christian abandons the teachings of Jehovah, as presented by the faithful and discreet slave, and persists in believing other doctrine despite Scriptural reproof, then he is apostisizing. ”

The letter goes on to state efforts are to be made to readjust his THINKING but if he continues not to accept the faithful and discreet slave’s teaching then take appropriate judicial action.

So as you stated THINKING is what’s on trial with Jehovah’s Witnesses. That’s their huge sin. Christ taught follow him for salvation; he did not teach that followers of his MUST believe his rich man and Lazarus account was an allegory, or that they MUST accept it as a literal account.

I was just now posting this on another Site and thought you guys might enjoy it.

I remember an elder giving a talk back in the 70s from WT literature, and it was about how much a Christian could rub his/ her marriage mate’s genitals in sexual foreplay before they are sinning. The elder said if you do it this much it’s okay, but if you do it that much it’s not, it’s sinning. If you reach orgasim before intercourse because of the rubbing you definitely sinned. The elder teaching us that insightful bit of information in his talk inside the Kingdom Hall was Jake Fulwiley.

This, messenger is truly insane. See my above comments to Ricardo and tell me this kind of nonsense proves that Orwell’s 1984 is alive and well and being practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. Your example speakers volumes. Amazing; was this factoid on the Society’s outline or was this his own spiritual insight and wisdom?

Yeah it was pretty far out there. And of course that guy gave that talk with kids in the audience. Two were his. You can rub your mates genitals this long, but if you rub to the pint of orgasm you are sinning.

Here’s another one. Back during the time of the Jim Jones massacre we had a district overseer in this primarily Black circuit that looked kind of like him. I was new at the time. The circuit overseers in that African American part of town back then were another breed from those I’ve seen any place else. I don’t know what they are like now. I hear Samuel Herd served there before I arrived. But the way these guys spoke at circuit assemblies was not at all like they spoke at district assemblies. At circuit assemblies they were five times tougher, and five times looser.

So we had this district overseer named McGee. I was thinking about inviting my astranged grandfather to this circuit assembly because he lived in Baldwin Hills, close to this Lemert assembly hall. But I didn’t, and after seeing what happened at the ASSEMBLY I was glad I didn’t.

The district overseer was up giving a talk. Then all of a sudden he said, “I started to commend you parents for keeping your children in their seats during the program, and not letting them go to the restroom” then he started yelling, ” but there goes one now, STOP HIM, STOP HIM ATTENDANT, WELL THE ATTENDANT MUST BE ASLEEP. ” It felt like a cult, that this fellow was a dictator, and it seemed those other people in positions of authority were afraid of this guy.

He had a habit of telling the audience, and I quote, “For lunch break don’t any of you go outside by the parkway because the fags are out there. ” I remember our last assembly with him. He was smiling and saying goodbye to people, because he could be personable when he wasn’t acting the tyrant. He told us his next assignment was in San Francisco, known to have a heavy homosexual population. I moved from that area. But I asked one of my close friends who was an elder by that time about McGee. He told me the friends in Frisco ran him out of there. He said McGee had mouthed off to them but that’s another story.

Okay I’ll tell what he said. He told me McGee was at an assembly at the Cow Place. It must have been a district because that’s too large for a circuit. My friend claims McGee said, “You may have heard that I just came from serving in South Central Los Angeles. Some of you friends have been asking me how the friends are doing in that area, being a rather economical deprived area. WELL THOSE FRIENDS DOWN THERE ARE NOT DEPRIVED, YOU ARE THE ONES THAT ARD DEPRIVED. I SEE SOME OF YOU COMING HERE IN YOUR HELICOPTER OR FANCY CARS. THOSE FRIENDS ARE DOING JUST FINE. ” My friend claimed that’s what got him run out of Frisco.

One last thought. When I heard Anthony Morris III tell everyone in the United States the if a brother is 21 years of age and not appointed by Watchtower as a ministerial servant then he isn’t marriage material for a Christian sister I thought of those circuit overseers in South Central LA. Morris wasn’t as mean sounding, but it was the same type of opinionated crap he was talking. And Slammin Sammy Herd seconded the talk by stating what fine encouragement Morris gave. By that time I knew there were quite a few lying prick elders, because I’d had run ins with several. But before that I didn’t think the governing body and Watchtower was like that. Tony Morris’ talk opened my eyes. I knew something was wrong. That’s when I started researching Watchtower, and the first thing I checked out, and what I did at first was watch. Lloyds videos. I guess I read some of the articles, but I mainly remember watching the videos. And I determined Watchtower was apostate. I don’t remember reading you guys comments until some time after that.

If I remember this point correctly he might have included that Bible character that spilled his semen on the ground so as not to get some woman pregnant in his talk.

So, watch how you rub your mate’s genitals. A little is okay but you had better get to intercourse before ejaculating. And this character actually taught if not you sinned, AND ACTED AGAINST GOD’S WILL.

This same character stopped calling on me at the meetings when I raised my hand, BECAUSE I WOULD NOT FOLLOW THE DIRECTION OF ANOTHER ELDER WHO TOLD ME TO CUT MY WIFE’S ALLOWANCE TO MAKE HER COMMENT DURING THE WATCHTOWER STUDY. Both of them stopped calling on me because I did not follow that direction. And I didn’t even have to tell them I didn’t follow it. The very next meeting after the direction was given they stopped, and never called on me after that.

I didn’t see the outline. I was still rather new. He might have elaborated on what the Society wrote. What I shared is burned in my memory. But I think he also shared that Bible account of the Jew that was having intercourse then spilled his semen on the ground so as not to produce a child. But this fellow’s concentration was on the degree of petting that could faithfully be done with your marriage mate before intercourse or if you don’t have intercourse and just pet. If YOU even get close to ejaculating you sinned according to him. Also I can’t remember if it was a public talk or a part on the service meeting.

Could you imagine teaching someone will be judged worthy of everlasting death in the New World for that? Too bad a comedian didn’t hear this guy and televise it as a skit.

I am not sure if this was on an online. I can’t remember if it was a public talk or during the service meeting. I think he shared the Bible account of the man that spilled his semen on the ground so as not to produce a child during intercourse. The other comment I mentioned about no petting to a point close to orgasm might have been his belief based on that Bible account.

Good one messenger, foreplays ok so long as you don’t
enjoy it too much. The elder giving the talk seems to have
devised a system based on increments of intensity, just
another example of amateurish meddling creating guilt
and damaging inhibitions. Anyway it’s left an impression
on you, sorry I missed it, wonder what the kids made of it.

That elder had a couple of his own kids there. Back there the biggest difference between what I saw in other districts that were integrated mostly White came from circuit overseers though. The circuit was covering South Central Los Angeles in the 70s. Here’s an example:

We had a district overseer named McGee? During his talk on a circuita ssembly he said, ” I started to commend you parents for keeping your children in their seats during the program, and not letting them go to the restroom, but wait there goes one now, ” then he started yelling, ” Stop, STOP HIM ATTENDANT, THE ATTENDANT MUST BE ASLEEP. ” This fellow also had a habit of telling us before the lunch breaks and I quote, “Don’t any of you go outside by the parkway because the fags are out there. ” That’s what those South Central circuit assemblies were like back then. It appeared to me other elders were afraid of the circuit and district overseers.

Messenger? Was that District overseer named Earl Magee? Was he a Black Brother at the time maybe 50ish years old or so? If it was I had him also but it was in Northern California near Oakland /SF California. If it was him We took him out on his day off and rove him to the coastal area for lunch. He was very opinionated but overall I liked him. Of course back then if you got to do something with the CO or DO you for sure scored Watchtower points!

I don’t know his first name. That’s his LAST name but I’m not sure of the spelling. Back in the 70s or early 80s he was in his 50s. He was very light skin for a Black brother. Much lighter than Obama. And yes after left us he went up to the San Francisco area.

I used to work the stage for a while in that circuit when he served us. He seemed very personable to the friends about to give their parts. But then he’d sometimes go out after and let the audience have it. If he told parents not to let their children sleep at the ASSEMBLY then that’s him. I will post one more post on this because I want to ask you a question.

Holy Connoli
Did McGee get run out of the Frisco area? I asked one of my close friends about him years after I left. This friend of mine was an elder, but he’s been dead for years.

He told me McGee was giving a talk at the Cow Palace and said:
“Some of you friends know that I come from serving South Central Los Angeles; and you’ve asked me how are the friends doing in that deprived area. They’re not deprived, you are the ones that are deprived. I’ve seen some of you come in here in your helicopter and fancy cars. You are the deprived ones. THOSE FRIENDS DOWN THERE ARE DOING Fine.

That had to be him. He was light skinned and on the shorter side as I remember. Yes he gave talks at the cow palace and I attended there myself back in those days. He was serving in Oakland/Richmond/ El Cerrito/Berkely as I remember and probably some other areas close to those cities. That sounds exactly like him.We spent time with him on more than one occasion on his day off.He was nice but very opinionated. I remember h e was down talking a college education when we went to lunch. I felt differently about College but of course I did not say anything. We took him to a town near Stinson Beach for his day off and the food was more like a California Cuisine w fancy names and small portions and he ha no Idea what to order so he said just give me a Hamburger. lol What area are you from back then? I was from the East bay Berkely area and surrounding cities. We might know each other? I was an Elder for over 10 years.Wife was pioneer back then.

Messenger: I dont know if that happened or that he said that but that is typical JW jargon and verbage a CO or DO would use. Also knowing his personality of being very opinionated that sounds very much like something he would say. Do you also remember a CO or DO named JE R Brown from that area also? He pulled a few shenanigans and got the brothers to try to buy him a new mobile home and got a BIG contribution thing going. They tries to hit me up for a donation of like $2K! Then later we found out he got DF’d for having affairs with men and women. For real true story. Rumors were he died of AIDS back then.

I was in Los Angeles. Brother McGee was sent to the Frisco area right after he left us. I always suspected Watchtower sent him up there because of the notorious homosexual population there. My suspicion is that someone might have turned him in to the Society for using the term fag from the platform so often.

Yes we had a Brother Brown as a district overseer also. And I did hear he was disfellowshiped after he left us. I took him on one of my calls once. I still remember it because we were inside this ladies home that was in her 70s or 80s, and Brown kept talking to her about not watching soap operas on TV. She had one on, and he kept brining it up. Most of those circuit and district overseers then were extremely opinionated and did not hold back from expressing it. I know some sisters were not allowed to present an assembly part because of dress.

Did you ever get the circuit overseer Woodrow Willis? He was one of the best speakers I’ve heard that was a Witness. But he’d project his anger onto the audience when speaking on subjects like immorality. Still, I considered him a friend. We had Woodrow Willis and McGee serving our circuit at the same time. So, you could imagine how opinionated and domineering those circuit assembly talks were. I’ve never seen any other assemblies like them. Especially they were much different than assemblies I attended in White areas, which I have much more experience with.

Best wishes to you. Just because WT is wrong about many things doesn’t mean the Bible is. Keep going, and take care.

You asked about the circuit(s) McGee served in Los Angeles. Circuit 24 started up around Downtown Los Angeles, and it went as far south as Compton. There were too many of us to all meet in the ASSEMBLY hall we used, that sat about 1300. So the circuit was divided into three sections A, B, and C. Our circuit overseers served all sections. I don’t know if McGee who was a district overseer was limited to that one circuit or if his service domain extended beyond that area.

I just thought of what is even funnier if it went this way. I just assumed he was giving that talk from Society notes because public talks are given from WT outlines and parts on the Service Meeting were mostly given from Kingdom Service printed materials or where that KM directed the speakers to research . But there is one Service Meeting part that didn’t direct the speaker. It was the SPECIAL NEEDS PART. I’m not saying he did this, because I don’t remember, but what if he shared that info as a SPECIAL NEED.

Okay brothers and sisters. It’s been reported to the elders that there has been excessive heavy petting going on between the married couples. So, our special needs part tonight is on the sin of petting too much to induce orgasm or taking your mates to the verge of orgasm.

And how wide spread is this crap practice of elder choosing not to call on certain publishers because of petty reasons they are even too ashamed to confront the publishers about? For instance, in that same congregation as the guy was in who claimed you can touch it but you’d better get down to acting out a procreation act prior to orgasm there was this Watchtower study conductor who told me to cut my wife’s allowance to force her to comment at the Watchtower. The very next meeting the Watchtower study conductor and this clients already mentioned stopped calling on me, and they never did again.

I experienced that crap three times and it has been reported to me by others. I’m wondering how far this twinkie flies. Does anybody know? I’m in California, and I’ve seen it practiced by elders over a hundred miles stretch covering three counties. I’ve turned elders in for the practice before. And everyone one of them lied and denied they did it. Sometimes they work this filthy practice in groups of two or three.

The second time I saw it I spoke out of turn ( I just said my hands is up) at a house book study. The book study conductor told other elders and the WT conductor not only stopped calling on me but also my eight year old son. For how long? About a year before I turned him and his buddies in. When I spoke to the elders there one admitted, “That’s what we used to do , but we don’t do it anymore. ” So, you use to be a prick representing Jehovah from the Kingdom Hall stage, but you don’t do it anymore. Fact is they were still doing it.

Reverse shunning, not of individual JWs but of the g,b,
and their crass doctrine. In this instance their actively
discouraging higher learning, university education,
falsely maligning it as spiritually damaging. Even having
talented people at assemblies stating how they’d
given up the prospect of developing their natural gift
to serve as pioneers. –>

This translates as becoming a part time window washer
or office cleaner and the rest of the time standing outside
shopping malls idling beside a cart displaying wt material
Plus attending meetings to convince them to keep on
doing it as the end is imminent,( As it was 2000 years ago! )

Now to the point. I have recently had an operation to correct
cataract damage. My sight was so bad, so clouded I had to
give up driving, shopping was difficult couldn’t see signs in
the supermarket indicating the various aisles, quality of life
badly affected in many ways. Now after the operation
everything is crystal clear, the dark brown world is now full
of vivid colour. For the first time since I was 5 years old
(81 years ago) I can see without glasses.–>

This wouldn’t have been possible without the skill of the
surgeon, acquired after several years of university know how.
I warmly thanked him for it. Without such expertise I guess
they would say, ok so your going blind now but just hang on
for the new system. I wonder, do the 8 ancient gb ever
refuse the help and comfort provide by university trained
doctors! Hypocrites.

You’ve got it sorted Ted. I remember a conversation where a Christian was asking an Atheist why he doesn’t just believe in God as insurance in case he’s wrong. The Atheist replied “If I died and was confronted by God and he asked me why I didn’t believe in him, I would simply tell him he didn’t give me enough evidence” and went on to say he was sure God would look more kindly on him than he would a hypocrite.
If you ask me, the very source of God belief is The Weather. We knew nothing back then and the weather is just like a God – invisible, unpredictable, controls everything and can inflict severe punishments on us. Belief grew from there and once Churches had obtained a cushy lifestyle from it they were very reluctant to let it go. Human nature. It always comes back to that.
We are risen Apes, not fallen angels.

Hi outandabout. Your point of humans being risen apes
I think is now beyond dispute, though I can see why
religion, especially the top echelons would oppose and
try to contradict the facts.

Chimps make and use tools –> two rocks, one as an
anvil the other as a hammer to break open nuts, sticks
of appropriate lengths to probe into termite mounds,
even spears to hunt with by stripping a branch of its
twigs and sharpening the end with their teeth. I don’t
think even a 5 or 6 year old human would be that
sophisticated. But the kicker fact is the DNA, when
compared side by side, humans and chimps are approx,
99% the same.

Shame for our closest relative to lack that extra 1%
so preventing him from having a soul or living forever,
or communicating with the great male in the sky.

DNA is the kicker alright, Ted. Yes, we are so close to being a chimp yet we can’t reproduce together but we humans share genes with Neanderthal and another recently discovered cousin of ours, the Denisovan. Europeans have about 2% Neanderthal and some Asians have up to 6% Denisovan in them. In short, we were interbreeding at some stage and we are the only survivors. Interesting that sub-Saharan Africans have none of the above and are of pure breed. And all from Adam and Eve too!…….apparently.
Religion has been woven into society and is like an enormous freight train that will take a very long time to stop. We’re not going to accept we’ve been wrong all this time overnight. Those churches will hang on to their lifestyle for as long as they can. Too much money and ego involved.

What if we have a relative or a close friend who is disfellowshipped? Now our loyalty is on the line, not to that person, but to God. Jehovah is watching us to see whether we will abide by his command not to have contact with anyone who is disfellowshipped.—Read 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. /

400, Billion stars in our galaxy, 100, Billion galaxies detected.
225 trillion years to cover the distance at the speed of light.
And the god of all this is p****d off because Joe Bloggs is
accepting phone calls from his disfellowshipped son
Charlie Bloggs. Sounds a bit neurotic, getting concerned
over trivialities. I know the feeling, that’s how it got me!

The whole Universe is on a course of eventual destruction, Ted. One day it will run out of heat and worlds will end but not in the way WT imagines. We’ll all get the same deal. Not only are those stars and galaxy’s out there moving, they’re accelerating. Looks like the big bang only happened yesterday in cosmic terms. Andromeda, the galaxy closest to us is on a collision course with ours. All part of Gods plan and all done just for itty bitty us and it fills my heart to bursting with love.

It has been awhile since visiting here. Recently I gave the sermon at Valley Unitarian Universalist Congregation where I attend. In the sermon I touch upon the subject of loyalty towards ones faith vs family. Those in the Ex-JW community who know my story know that the day an elder attempted to obtain information and support from me in their effort to give a marking talk directed towards my oldest daughter is the day I left the faith.