Only thing that ever needed nerf is burst, specifically eviscerate
No one would even care that you cant DIRECTLY peel rogue for 3 seconds (although obviously almost any class can peel indirectly).
Lets not forget that subterfuge is great survivability talent which isnt something rogues can spare and it feels very rogueish and not some passive mitigation warrior-like sht.

As for c&d at the current state of the game it doesnt even feel that OP. I mean its possibly too strong on openers but i wouldnt like to drop it while dancing because, well, dance is the only thing that is scary about rogues atm and its not too hard to peel / use sht during those 6 seconds so cnd helping in that department.

I mean, obviously it feels hard because rogues do stupid amount of damage even through defensive cds, but thats not the fault of cnd or subterfuge. Its like... if rogue is lucky he can literally double evis through cds for like 80% of your hp and in this topic people go "ye, prolly subterfuge and cnd are stupid and too op". Ye, sure, its all subterfuge's fault ><

Only thing that ever needed nerf is burst, specifically eviscerate
No one would even care that you cant DIRECTLY peel rogue for 3 seconds (although obviously almost any class can peel indirectly).
Lets not forget that subterfuge is great survivability talent which isnt something rogues can spare and it feels very rogueish and not some passive mitigation warrior-like sht.

As for c&d at the current state of the game it doesnt even feel that OP. I mean its possibly too strong on openers but i wouldnt like to drop it while dancing because, well, dance is the only thing that is scary about rogues atm and its not to hard to peel / use sht during those 6 seconds so cnd helping in that department.

Exactly.... any good team will peel the rogues dance, or mage will blink or lock will tele, etc... the whole thing about stunning the whole enemy team... ok great lets say that someone does that in arena, theyre dance will be completely fucked because they will only proly be able to get 1 ambush in by the time it ends due to energy starvation...

Yes lets keep pretending that Bieng invisible while attacking is a good mechanic because you think you need survivability an it feels roguish. Why do people advocate for keeping dumb things in the game instead of addressing them so you can get actual fixes where your class has a weakness.

Can't see what cd's they pop for 3 seconds which could be half your hp or more, can't use targetable peels (not everyone has aoe cc) oh and It's fun dieing to invisible targets because you can't karma them(that one is bias).

Can't see what cd's they pop for 3 seconds
- seems valid, although educative guess is what makes or breaks games. I dont know when mage will pom poly my healer but i can see that its off cd / dr and guess when he would be in position to do it. As for the rogues — first 2 cds are most likely stun and bleed so you are only really not seeing his cds for a second.
p.s. doesnt gladiatorlsa announce it anyway?

can't use targetable peels (not everyone has aoe cc)
- Name me a class that doesnt have aoe cc / peel (RoP is one btw). Only dk comes to mind, but its not like you cant peel as a team.

It's fun dieing to invisible targets
- Its fun to get aoe disarmed. Thats not even an argument.

Can't see what cd's they pop for 3 seconds
- seems valid, although educative guess is what makes or breaks games. I dont know when mage will pom poly my healer but i can see that its off cd / dr and guess when he would be in position to do it. As for the rogues — first 2 cds are most likely stun and bleed so you are only really not seeing his cds for a second.
p.s. doesnt gladiatorlsa announce it anyway?

can't use targetable peels (not everyone has aoe cc)
- Name me a class that doesnt have aoe cc / peel (RoP is one btw)

It's fun dieing to invisible targets
- Its fun to get aoe disarmed. Thats not even an argument.

I advocate for rop to get removed a long with subter and plenty of other dumb mechanics i'm not just hating on rogues. Not every class can afford to take an "educated guess" and just randomly pop defensives and you want one class without aoe cc, i give you rogue

edit- that shot at rop is exactly what I think is wrong with most people's mentalities btw, people trying to justify stupid things with other stupid things

Time to give up i guess. Why argue about things like cnd and subfuge when real problem is 150k+ evises... thats beyond me.

I play with quite a few classes and i value that they dont feel exactly the same, so ye, not really a fan of removing things just because its new and looks scary. Doing 300k in 2 seconds, THAT is scary and is the only thing that should be judged imho not the random bells and whistles. People are not getting killed with thunder its the lightning that kills.

Time to give up i guess. Why argue about things like cnd and subfuge when real problem is 150k+ evises... thats beyond me.

I play with quite a few classes and i value that they dont feel exactly the same, so ye, not really a fan of removing things just because its new and looks scary. Doing 300k in 2 seconds, THAT is scary and is the only thing that should be judged imho not the random bells and whistles. People are not getting killed with thunder its the lightning that kills.

You will not hit over 100k evis in 5.3 lol so burst on evis is not the issue. You should be more worried about mobility than anything next patch.

Why didn't they make Subterfuge different - for example, once you use an ability it takes you out of stealth. The only use of it will be not get knocked out of stealth instantly , giving you time to open?
Anyway, i guess CnD was also an option (afterall it came this patch - rogues were still decent previous seasons without it). But with it they made burst overall lower and nerfed Find weakness(can't recall other nerfs atm).
If they want to keep it like this i guess they could buff a bit Shadow step to be able to use it while rooted( guess making it remove root would be bit too strong). They should add it bk to prep aswell.

Why didn't they make Subterfuge different - for example, once you use an ability it takes you out of stealth. The only use of it will be not get knocked out of stealth instantly , giving you time to open?
Anyway, i guess CnD was also an option (afterall it came this patch - rogues were still decent previous seasons without it). But with it they made burst overall lower and nerfed Find weakness(can't recall other nerfs atm).
If they want to keep it like this i guess they could buff a bit Shadow step to be able to use it while rooted( guess making it remove root would be bit too strong). They should add it bk to prep aswell.

Make step usable while rooted put it on prep and give hit and run rogues fixed.

Only thing that ever needed nerf is burst, specifically eviscerate
No one would even care that you cant DIRECTLY peel rogue for 3 seconds (although obviously almost any class can peel indirectly).
Lets not forget that subterfuge is great survivability talent which isnt something rogues can spare and it feels very rogueish and not some passive mitigation warrior-like sht.

As for c&d at the current state of the game it doesnt even feel that OP. I mean its possibly too strong on openers but i wouldnt like to drop it while dancing because, well, dance is the only thing that is scary about rogues atm and its not too hard to peel / use sht during those 6 seconds so cnd helping in that department.

I mean, obviously it feels hard because rogues do stupid amount of damage even through defensive cds, but thats not the fault of cnd or subterfuge. Its like... if rogue is lucky he can literally double evis through cds for like 80% of your hp and in this topic people go "ye, prolly subterfuge and cnd are stupid and too op". Ye, sure, its all subterfuge's fault ><

Exactly.... any good team will peel the rogues dance, or mage will blink or lock will tele, etc... the whole thing about stunning the whole enemy team... ok great lets say that someone does that in arena, theyre dance will be completely fucked because they will only proly be able to get 1 ambush in by the time it ends due to energy starvation...

yes but you just traded a 1 min cd for 2+ min offensive cds while your healer can save his cds/trinkets

really awful tradeoff huh

Braindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.