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That is one massive trade. It looks like the Marlins are sending half of their team away. Reyes would have been great and would have looked nice a top the order. Not really a contract the Pirates should be taking on though.

Oh I agree, but it sure would have been nice to see an upgrade of that magnitude. Would have solved more than a few problems

I'm not really sure what to think about him. His performance this past season seems to be an outlier for his career and he is getting up there in age so its not like he has turned a corner. He could have some value but to be perfectly honest I'm not quite sure how much better he would be then say a Kelly Shoppach or Gerald Laird. I mean he is likely to be slightly better but I don't think significantly so and I think he is going to get a contract worth possibly 5 times what the those two will get.

For all those reasons you stated is why I think Pierzynski well come relatively cheap. Even Huntington is smart enough to know AJ had a career year that he won't duplicate. Shoppach and Laird are head and shoulders better than AJ defensively but will provide next to nothing offensively (much like Barajas). Pierzynski puts the ball in play and isn't such a gaping black hole like Barajas was in '12. Just a thought since it would most likely be on a one year deal.

"It's hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it's damn near impossible to win an argument against a stupid person." - Bill MurraySabermetric Myths
FIP=better pitcher
WAR is fact
Pythagorean records and win expectancy have value
Strikeouts are overrated
Best regular season record = best team
Regular season > Post season
The difference between me and you is I don't need the internet to discuss baseball intelligently.

For all those reasons you stated is why I think Pierzynski well come relatively cheap. Even Huntington is smart enough to know AJ had a career year that he won't duplicate. Shoppach and Laird are head and shoulders better than AJ defensively but will provide next to nothing offensively (much like Barajas). Pierzynski puts the ball in play and isn't such a gaping black hole like Barajas was in '12. Just a thought since it would most likely be on a one year deal.

With the way the catcher market is I think AJ and Martin are going to get something like 2 year, 16 million dollar deals. I think it will be Martin to the Rangers and AJ to the Yankees. I mean sure if AJ would come at a 1 year 6-7 million dollar deal that would be worth the gamble but I don't see it.

For the record I also think you are underestimating Shoppach's offensive ability. From 2009-2011 AJ had a wRC+ of 88 and Shoppach's was 87. Now Laird is a very valid point as his was only 62. Shoppach has a huge K problem which makes him far from an ideal addition but there is reason to believe that his offense wouldn't be hugely worse than AJ and would be far better than what we got from Barajas this season.

Still for the right price an all AJ battery on opening day would be great.

Twins fan here, I think I remember Span's name coming up around the deadline in some of the Pirates speculation to get a top of the order guy to hit in front of McCutchen and Alvarez etc. With that being said, who would you guys see as possible chips to move for Span? Obviously the Twins need pitching badly, but Taillon and Cole would be out of the question for sure. Im not sure where that leaves the two teams as being a match however. Names like Marte, Hansen, Polanco sound nice, but they are all position players, and Marte is the only close to contributing. James McDonald seems like a piece that could match up, but I think the Twins would want a bit more than that. Prospects like McPherson, Locke, Owens, Morris, Wilson just don't have the upside to be a centerpiece, but would make good secondary pieces... Is there anything that you guys see? This is something that I just threw together on the spot.

MIN gets: Alen Hanson, Kyle McPherson
PIT gets: Denard Span

McPherson would fit into the Twins 2012 rotation and could be a nice #3/4 starter for a while. Meanwhile Hanson would give the Twins a very exciting infield in 2014 with Sano at 3rd and Eddie Rosario at 2nd... Perhaps by shedding a few more million from Span's salary the Twins could look to put that money towards a bigger named free agent pitcher, or maybe sign two pitchers. Adding a big name starter or 2 average starters and McPherson would improve the Twins rotation quite a bit in my opinion.

Meanwhile Span would fit well in left field in Pittsburgh. He plays a good defensive center field, but his arm might even play better in left. He would be a near perfect fit atop the Pirates lineup and his contract is very team friendly for a player of his caliber and age. An outfield of Span, McCutchen, Marte would be very exciting to watch both offensively an defensively for a while in Pittsburgh.

Also on a completely different, unrealistic, fantasy note. Would you guys be happy with a trade like this?

Twins fan here, I think I remember Span's name coming up around the deadline in some of the Pirates speculation to get a top of the order guy to hit in front of McCutchen and Alvarez etc. With that being said, who would you guys see as possible chips to move for Span? Obviously the Twins need pitching badly, but Taillon and Cole would be out of the question for sure. Im not sure where that leaves the two teams as being a match however. Names like Marte, Hansen, Polanco sound nice, but they are all position players, and Marte is the only close to contributing. James McDonald seems like a piece that could match up, but I think the Twins would want a bit more than that. Prospects like McPherson, Locke, Owens, Morris, Wilson just don't have the upside to be a centerpiece, but would make good secondary pieces... Is there anything that you guys see? This is something that I just threw together on the spot.

MIN gets: Alen Hanson, Kyle McPherson
PIT gets: Denard Span

McPherson would fit into the Twins 2012 rotation and could be a nice #3/4 starter for a while. Meanwhile Hanson would give the Twins a very exciting infield in 2014 with Sano at 3rd and Eddie Rosario at 2nd... Perhaps by shedding a few more million from Span's salary the Twins could look to put that money towards a bigger named free agent pitcher, or maybe sign two pitchers. Adding a big name starter or 2 average starters and McPherson would improve the Twins rotation quite a bit in my opinion.

Meanwhile Span would fit well in left field in Pittsburgh. He plays a good defensive center field, but his arm might even play better in left. He would be a near perfect fit atop the Pirates lineup and his contract is very team friendly for a player of his caliber and age. An outfield of Span, McCutchen, Marte would be very exciting to watch both offensively an defensively for a while in Pittsburgh.

Just to be clear we don't have Owens anymore sent him to the Astros for Wandy. Anyway I really do like Span. Like you said he is certainly not worth Cole or Taillon but do think he could net one of the Pirates next 4 (Hanson, Polanco, Bell and Heredia). What you propose is probably a fair trade considering Span's value but I don't think I would be happy if the Pirates gave one of them up for a player like Span. As a lead off hitting defensive oriented center fielder Span has that type of value but as lead off hitting, defensive oriented, limited power hitting corner outfielder Span does not have that kind of value.

You mentioned McDonald and I think he would make more sense as a center piece for Span (from the Pirates perspective) if the Twins had interest in him. He wouldn't be enough in his own right of course but I think coupled with one of our second tier pitching prospects (McPherson, Clay Holmes, Tyler Glasnow or Nicholas Kingham) and a lesser hitting prospect (say Gift Ngoepe or Willy Garcia) depending on what the Twins are looking for could work.

Also on a completely different, unrealistic, fantasy note. Would you guys be happy with a trade like this?

I've heard a lot of speculation about Stanton. My thought has been that any trade for him would need to start with the foundation of 1 of Cole/Taillon and 1 of Polanco/Bell/Hanson. A third good prospect (outside of the Pirates top 6 but probably in their top 15) would also need to be included. I figured that would be a good starting point. Including Marte instead of say Polanco is another possible way to go that I haven't really considered. Tabata's value is irrelevant in a trade of this magnitude so essentially its Marte and Cole for Stanton. My initial reaction is no but that is because I have a special attachment to our 4 (now 3) big arms and want to see it rode out but for a player like Stanton it is intriguing. I would still probably pass though, not because the value is well off but because I believe that for the Pirates to ever be truly competitive they need to develop their own legitimate ace and Cole seems like the best chance of that happening anytime soon.

Its been a while since something was posted so I thought I'd post the only loose rumor I've heard and that is the Pirates possibly being interested in Brandon McCarthy. It would be great to get him for the rotation but until we get something firmer I'm not putting too much stock into it.

Looking for some feedback on something i've been thinking about. Huntington has to realize that if things don't start out well this coming season, he could very well be out of a job. I understand not trading the farm unless it makes sense but if he doesn't do something, he isn't going to be around to see Cole, Taillon, Hansen, etc, in a Pirate uniform.

I feel that this franchise needs to do something different to succeed and that means taking a chance and trading away a Taillon or some other blue chip prospect. Due to the economics of the game right now i feel we have small windows to make a run. We need to draft well then have some of those drafted be legit major leaguers and trade other prospects and make a run. Maybe take on a contract through a trade and hope that we hit it right with the young guys and add in the legit major leaguer we acquired and see what happens. Then repeat the process.

An example of this would be take our top 6 prospects, keep 3 when they are ready, trade 3 for legit, established major league ballplayers, add that mix with Cutch, Alvarez, Walker, etc... and see what happens. We know the time will come when the acquired guys go to free agency and Cutch, Alvarez, and Walker will all get too expensive and will move on but we take our shot and when everyone leaves and we start losing we draft high and get some blue chip prospects and continue the process. I think we can live with taking a shot for 2 years and hoping we make a playoff run then re-load for 5 years and make another run. Make sense?

looking for some feedback on something i've been thinking about. Huntington has to realize that if things don't start out well this coming season, he could very well be out of a job. I understand not trading the farm unless it makes sense but if he doesn't do something, he isn't going to be around to see cole, taillon, hansen, etc, in a pirate uniform.

I feel that this franchise needs to do something different to succeed and that means taking a chance and trading away a taillon or some other blue chip prospect. Due to the economics of the game right now i feel we have small windows to make a run. We need to draft well then have some of those drafted be legit major leaguers and trade other prospects and make a run. Maybe take on a contract through a trade and hope that we hit it right with the young guys and add in the legit major leaguer we acquired and see what happens. Then repeat the process.

An example of this would be take our top 6 prospects, keep 3 when they are ready, trade 3 for legit, established major league ballplayers, add that mix with cutch, alvarez, walker, etc... And see what happens. We know the time will come when the acquired guys go to free agency and cutch, alvarez, and walker will all get too expensive and will move on but we take our shot and when everyone leaves and we start losing we draft high and get some blue chip prospects and continue the process. I think we can live with taking a shot for 2 years and hoping we make a playoff run then re-load for 5 years and make another run. Make sense?

Thoughts?

i would much rather the pirates grab a couple decent fa's rather than trade top prospects. They unloaded quite a few prospects last july for what i deem mediocre players gabby sanchez and wandy rodriguez. So trading for more players is debatable. Jason bay and one of the catchers available would plug two holes and given bay is being paid realy good yet by the mets so a decent contract and tons of incentives on a one or two year deal would be safe.then the pirates could look to upgrade at ss and the bull pen.

Looking for some feedback on something i've been thinking about. Huntington has to realize that if things don't start out well this coming season, he could very well be out of a job. I understand not trading the farm unless it makes sense but if he doesn't do something, he isn't going to be around to see Cole, Taillon, Hansen, etc, in a Pirate uniform.

I feel that this franchise needs to do something different to succeed and that means taking a chance and trading away a Taillon or some other blue chip prospect. Due to the economics of the game right now i feel we have small windows to make a run. We need to draft well then have some of those drafted be legit major leaguers and trade other prospects and make a run. Maybe take on a contract through a trade and hope that we hit it right with the young guys and add in the legit major leaguer we acquired and see what happens. Then repeat the process.

An example of this would be take our top 6 prospects, keep 3 when they are ready, trade 3 for legit, established major league ballplayers, add that mix with Cutch, Alvarez, Walker, etc... and see what happens. We know the time will come when the acquired guys go to free agency and Cutch, Alvarez, and Walker will all get too expensive and will move on but we take our shot and when everyone leaves and we start losing we draft high and get some blue chip prospects and continue the process. I think we can live with taking a shot for 2 years and hoping we make a playoff run then re-load for 5 years and make another run. Make sense?

Thoughts?

I've been thinking about just how to respond to this one. Ideally the farm system is there to supplemant the club either through actual promotions or as you state trades. If the Pirates feel they are in a good position with only 1 or 2 missing pieces than trading away one of the top prospects could make some sense but by and large it is through the farm not trades and free agency in which the Pirates must build. This means your suggestion of trading away half the top 6 prospects is probably too extreme. The Pirates are a small market team and because of such have a limited amount of resources. I'm not suggesting they are at that point now but with increasing salaries for McCutchen, Walker, Alvarez, etc on the horizons adding 3 players through trade is probably not feasible. The Pirates will need some players to produce for them at the league min level in order to stay competitive and that will of course most likely be the top prospects. Regardless in some ways what you are suggesting has already taken place with how the Pirates have acquired Burnett and Rodriguez.

Originally Posted by tripleplayer543

i would much rather the pirates grab a couple decent fa's rather than trade top prospects. They unloaded quite a few prospects last july for what i deem mediocre players gabby sanchez and wandy rodriguez. So trading for more players is debatable. Jason bay and one of the catchers available would plug two holes and given bay is being paid realy good yet by the mets so a decent contract and tons of incentives on a one or two year deal would be safe.then the pirates could look to upgrade at ss and the bull pen.

They really didn't unload prospects for Gaby Sanchez. He was acquired for Gorkys Hernandez and the supplemental pick. One could argue the supplemental pick could have been turned into a decent prospect but it wouldn't have been a major prospect in any regards. Besides the prospect they got in return is looking fairly good right now.

As far as Wandy I can get your poin there but dealing a prospect like Robbie Grossman for a nice dependable middle of the rotation lefty who you control for 2.5 years isn't a bad thing. However for the most part I agree with the rest that adding a solid free agent is probably the best way to go but Jason Bay? I think the Pirates could likely find better alternatives. A strong push for Napoli or a pitcher like Brandon McCarthy should have a greater impact that Bay.

Just an FYI tomorrow I believe is the deadline to set the 40 man rosters in advance of the RUle V draft. The Pirates have plenty of openings so no releases should be coming but expect a few players to be added. Phillip Irwin, Victor Black and Tony Sanchez seem like pretty much no brainers but Gift Ngoepe (who may not actually be eligible), Ramon Cabrera and even the surging Kyle Kaminska are ones on the borderline.

Update: The deadline is indeed tomorrow should be interesting to see if anyone besides the obvious 3 are added.

Liek I stated earlier the Pirates will be adding players to the 40 man roster today to protect them from the Rule V draft. They have 6 openings on their 40 man roster but I don't expect that many to be added.

Phillip Irwin, Tony Sanchez and Victor Black all seem like obvious adds as I suspect if any of the 3 were left unprotected they would be selected.

The rest of the group is a bunch of borderline candidates to be selected who have varying degrees of upside. I thought I'd go over the best of that bunch.

Gift Ngoepe - There are conflicting reports wether he is eligible or not. Assuming he is there is a chance he would be selected as his glove work is good enough to hold down a bench job right now and his bat while not developed at all still holds some potential due to his unique situation.

Ramon Cabrera - A good offensive prospect at catcher but typically catchers aren't selected in the Rule V draft as they are not easily hidden. If they are teams prefer to select defensive oriented catchers who can at least provide that from a backup and Cabrera isn't that.

Carlos Paulino - I don't think he is likely to be selected but he has the good defense usually associated with catchers who are Rule V picks and his bat does have some upside as shown but his 2011 campaign.

Jarek Cunningham - Good power potential from a middle infielder makes him an intriguin choice but injury concerns, defensive ability and a horrible showing in AA makes it unlikely he would be selected and less likely he would be kept

Jeff Inman - Live arm reliever who can crank his fastball up into the high 90s. His type seem to be amongst the most common Rule V selections because of his good arm and the relative ease of being able to hide him in the bullpen. Still poor performance makes his selection unlikely

Nathan Baker - Upper level left handed pitcher who showed a bit of success when he went to the bullpen at AA this season. Left handed relievers are another popular choice because teams can generally hide them as a LOOGY. Probably won't be added to the roster but I see a decent chance of him being selected.

Andrew Lambo - He was eligble last season and wasn't selected and although he did well this past season he didn't play much due to injury. Not much has really changed with Lambo so if teams passed on him last year they will probably do the same this year.

Eric Avila - Also eligible last year but not selected. He has some good power potential but is likely too far away from being ready for the majors to be a realistic selection by anyone

Hunter Strickland - Like Inman, Strickland has a good live arm but unlike him he doesn't come with the prospect reputation or the decent results. Probably won't be selected but I see a better than 0 chance that he is added today. He too was passed on last season but he is now healthy so things may be slightly different

Kyle Kaminska - He seems to be turning some heads in the AFL. The Pirates thought enough of him to acquire him from the Marlins so its possble they might think enough of him to protect him. Also the good results in the AFL make him a possible selection.

Quincy Latimore - Pirates are known to be high on Latimore and he has a ton of raw power. He is coming off a decent AA season but outside of the power he is probably too raw to stick on a major league roster. He was passed on last season and really little has changed.

Tim Alderson - The potential is still there but at some point you need results and they haven't come with enough consistentcy. He was eligble last season and not selected and little has changed.

So of that group listed I think Ngoepe, Cabrera, Inman, Strickland, Baker and Kaminska are all possibilities for the Pirates to add to the roster. Strickland probably wouldn't be selected but the Pirates always seem to make one odd protection every year. I see Cabrera and for that matter Paulino as unlikely selections largely because they are catchers and that is rarely done. Ngoepe is an interesting case as he might be selected and has a reasonable chance of being a solid major leaguer but yet if added the Pirates would have to use at least 2 and quite possibly all 3 of his options before he was ready for the majors. Hopefully he is not eligible this season. That leaves Inman, Baker and Kaminska as the ones I see as the most likely to be selected. My guess is the Pirates add one of those 3 though I'm not really sure which one. My gut tells me it will be Kaminska though and I also think they will likely have Baker selected if he is left unprotected but like Adcock and Lorin that is not really a major loss.

So my prediction is we will see Sanchez, Irwin, Black and one more player added. I'm leaning towards it being Kaminska or Ngoepe (if eligible) but it could really go a lot of ways including another catcher (Cabrera or maybe even Paulino) or more likely in my mind a different pitcher.

Jeremy Guthrie just got 3yrs 25mil from the Royals. The Royals certainly didn't do us any favors setting the market for a lower tier starting pitcher, just like the Dodgers signing of Brandon League hurt our chances of resigning Grilli with that ridiculous deal.

Jeremy Guthrie just got 3yrs 25mil from the Royals. The Royals certainly didn't do us any favors setting the market for a lower tier starting pitcher, just like the Dodgers signing of Brandon League hurt our chances of resigning Grilli with that ridiculous deal.

the pirates are going to have to spend some money or else they will be at other teams mercy at the trade deadline the nuttings saw what putting a competitive team did for attendance now imagine what putting a contending team will do