Ben Peek has given me a great idea by posting a contest on his blog guessing the pub date of his novel.

As many of you know, Black Thorn, White Rose edited by Terri and me is being reissued by Prime some time soon. It was originally scheduled for April 1st publication and is, I believe, in production now...IIRC Sean said it would be published August 1st... So start projecting now! Closest date wins a copy of the book, signed by me.

It is funny though, I wonder why it is that, 150 years ago, when they didn't have much technology a book would generally printed within a month or two of completion. Now it is years. What is that about anyhow?

Brendan, I don't know why reissues take so long (reserving printer time?) but original books are edited, copy edited, and proofread. Plus there's marketing to consider and it takes time to get galleys out to review venues. Did many books get reviewed 150 years ago? Did many sell?

Yes, as magazine and newspaper serials as well as short stories published in newspapers. Also, a lot of the serials were simply published as weekly pamphlets.

Another factor is that length restrictions, depending on the country, were not necessarily as rigid. Nowadays an author has very little room to move as far as length is concerned. Very few publishers will look at anything under 60k, and very few magazines will look at anything over 10k. Of course many of the greatest books and stories ever written have been in the 10-60k range.

Further, even stories of 7 or 8k are difficult to sell, and many publishers still won't even consider a novel of 65 or 70k.

So, if you are writing, you might have to blow up your book from 50k to 80, or abort a short story at 4 or 5k, just so you can get it published.

In the end this of course means a lower quality of work, which in turn means less copies sold.

I think if publishers published more books of lets say 30 or 35k, and marketed them properly, the would sell very well, as this is, in my opinion, an ideal length for the modern world.

Brendan, I don't think novelettes are difficult to sell. Most stories I see these days ARE novelettes-between 7500-12,000 words.

And although the large houses don't publish 30,000 words works, the small press does. I think part of the problem is that books are so expensive now, readers want a bigger bang for their buck and too many feel that a 40,000 word book at $21 is pricy.

Yes, some small presses publish these small books - but there is little inclination to write them if the publishers can't generate money for the authors.

You are very right about the prices. I am curious why people don't do cheaper editions. In Italy (I live a few minutes from there) they always have editions of all sorts of books for cheap. They had a widely popular series that went for 1000 lira (50 cents us). The books were always around 30k. I have about fifty of them on my bookshelf.

Just curious about the novelettes: Do you buy them, or tend to shy away sometimes due to length? What would you do with a story that you loved but that was 20k?

Regarding novelettes and longer. It completely depends on what I'm acquiring for. I rarely choose novellas for YBFH because I only have 125,000 words to play with. For most of my anthologies, I'm hapy to take a few novelettes but not too many. For SCIFICTION, I could take more. When editing Event Horizon, I could take some. For OMNI I couldn't. Here's the rundown in word length for some of my recent anthologies (and Subterranean) to give you an idea: Subterranean #7: Old Mr. Boudreaux Lisa Tuttle 6300 City of Night Joel Lane and John Pelan 6100 Holiday M. Rickert 5000 Under the Bottom of the Lake by Jeffrey Ford 4600 The King of the Big Night Hours Richard Bowes 6500 The Jeweller of Second-Hand Roe Anna Tambour 2700 Pirates of the Somali Coast Terry Bisson 4200 Vacancy Lucius Shepard 24,600 60,000

I was able to make up the 60,000 words any way I chose to. I knew I wanted to buy one novella.

With an anthology, you want to get as much a variety of stories as you can in. The more space you have to fill, the more likely you can use some longer stories.

Don't forget too, that the definition of novelette varies. Some award groups only separate anything shorter than a novel into long and short fiction. Some only have novella vs short story (and anything over 10,000 words is considered a novella).

I think your collections might have more longer stories than the norm though - but maybe it is because you are given a higher word count. Clearly you have demonstrated that there is, at least with you, a market for the 10k word story. But only Lucius got away with 20k

As a reader though, rather than an editor, if you had your choice of any length to read, what would it be?

For me it is 30-40k, since it allows me to get into the story, while still haveing time to finish it in a short period of time.

for what it's worth (and it's not much ;)) i've always done well with novelettes and novellas (selling wise and reception wise). the few times i've thought i'd have a bit of time selling it, well, turns out it sold real quick. in fact, i find they're easier to sell them a five thousand word short story.

Well, what about the short novel? I have finished two within the last 4 months or so, and haven't been able to find publishers for them so far. One is 42k, the other 52k. I am sure if they were 80 or 90k each it would be easier.

Of course their are places that would publish them, but those aren't the sort of publishers I care to give my work to.

26lies, which is 40k, was published by wheatland press late last year. it's about the only book of that size i've written.

the difficulty is, as you say, finding publishers that are worth going too. there's a lot of places that'll take that, and which are rubbish. it's a real shame that indie publishing for books doesn't include self publishing--the vanity publishing tag pretty much sets up the view of it, for quite good reasons, most of the time.

but i can't help but look round at indie labels and see how many new bands start by self releasing their own EP on their own indie label. an EP is much like a short novel, i reckon, and if i had a short novel i believed a lot in, and i had the money, i'd hire myself an editor, designer, cover artist, and do the book myself.

Ben - Funny you mention that, I had the same thought this morning in the shower.

The problem as you say is the stigma that goes with self publishing.

I actually had an idea of having a book published in India - since they can publish super-cheap editions for like 10 cents a copy - the sort of paperbacks that fall apart as you read them. But it would be sort of funny, since you could sell a novel to the publish for like 3 bucks.

Kelly's Small Beer first collection is an anomalie. She and Gavin spent a year or two driving around the country promoting the book and doing readings and they had Gavin's experience working at Booksense and both their experience having worked in a book store to help them.

Major NY publishers were interested in Kelly's second collection but she and Gavin decided to go with Small Beer because they had sold enough copies of her first collection to realize they didn't need a middleman to cut into sales they were already getting.

i tend to think that, these days, a lot of the responsibility for selling your book falls on the author. a publisher should take some responsibility, and should want to promote/sell, but we've all be round long enough to know how shoulda-woulda-coulda don't mean shit. so to me, being an author is (at least in my mind) part time artist, part time small business owner. put them together for a full time job with shit wages, no benefits, and no xmas parties

there are sometimes limits you can do in this role, tho. i'm limited by what i can afford to put into promoting my books, but with the shoestring budget i do have, i try. being in another country to where my stuff gets published is another downside, but i try and navigate it, as well. which is not to say i'm selling thousands of copies of books, cause i'm not, but you gotta start somewhere, and build it like a business.

least, there's my take on selling, and i've met people who agree and disagree. everyone's got different mileage.

PM - Yes, positive reviews help, but I have also had positive reviews without being able to see any very percievable change in sales. I have a feeling it is more the number of reviews, and where they are, that sell the books.

But as Ben seemed to be pointing out, it is more about gaining some sort of following.

Reviews are indeed important-- and who sees them. Terri and I have had only one of our books reviewed in the NY Times Book Review: Snow White, Blood Red. It was a very mixed review. She's convinced (I'm not)that that review (half a page) is what has kept that book in print longer than any other of our collaborations. It's a thought, though.

Yeah, I am not sure about the NY Times Book Review. I know of another case where they reviewed an author's book and he didn't get many sales. So, of course, there is no simple recipe as to why one book does better than another. Quality of course is a good starting point.

PM - No disrespect, but I think that oversimplifies things. A very large percentage of books sold are not bought by individuals, but by institutions and book chains. Then the individuals buy from the chains. It is not simply that someone has to have 20 bucks in there pocket and know that book X exists.

If the book is at a chain, there is a certain amount of impulse buying, but if it is an on-line order, it is because the person feels they MUST have that book.

Books that sell well generally have marketing forces behing them. That might boil down to even a few individuals, but whatever the case is it is not about simply making the thing available and sending off ten review copies.

In fact, I think that is why many small press publishers don't succeed. They think that is all that is necessary is to publish something and people will come and buy it.

i'm not really talking about BLACK SHEEP here. when it's released, i'll deal with my side of promotional things when it comes out. at this point, there's really not much i can do until the book materialises. sometimes you can do pre-release stuff, but given the way the release date keeps getting pushed back, it's a stupid thing to do right now. so i'm just talking in a general way--thinking of some of the things i did for 26lies, and collections i've been in, and what i've observed in other authors and presses. take it all with a grain of salt--there're people who know more than me, smarter and wiser and richer, one and all

that said, i do tend to think reviews are useful, if for nothing more than contributing to word of mouth. maybe one review by itself doesn't do much (or maybe it does) by a lot of talk about a book in a positive way isn't something to overlook.

as for people finding the webpages of publishers... well, haven't they got to be looking for the book, first? which brings use back to other issues of selling the book to people round.

in part, the biggest problem (at least, this is true in australia, and i'm not sure about the states) for independent publishers to get their books out there is distribution. for a lot, simply getting it is a problem. therefor it's not a question of not wanting to get into a lot of stores--it's simply that the door to that is shut.

Yeah I'm mentioning Black Sheep to indicate that there's at least one person who's been waiting... That's not directed at you of course.

And I agree that it's folly to try and drum up support for it at this time.

One of the neat aspects of this board is discovering the existence of writers. But one has to find the way here first. Same for publisher websites, author websites, blogs, etc. Once you know it's there then you're set.

Getting into stores can be difficult. If you can get in then great. But the stores have limited shelf space.

I'd target college students. Imagine J. K. Potter posters on dorm walls. Put NightShade books and the website on the poster. Each Fall incoming students will come to campus and will usually want to put something on their walls. This of course is where time and money kicks in...

Ok. Black Thorn, White Rose has been published and has been available on amazon for a few days now. So say mid-November. Ben Peek was closest at October 7th...once I get my stash I'll send you a signed copy of you like! Do you know my email address?