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kgt wrote:Manufacturers like Colnago or Pinarello do not care (even if they obviously can) to make a light frame because they know that at the end the frame's weight itself does not matter. They care to make a frame that performs great and looks like a precious item. You may blame them for that if you want. I don't.

It will probably won't have the same ride characteristics as the "real thing"! Then again, how do you even know that when you pay some $4k+ for the Pinarello that you aren't actually getting one of these???? Makes me wonder some times with all the new carbon frames on the market. So many of them are "designed in Italy" but may actually be made over seas to their specs and then shipped back to them and ultimately you.

Ok, don't get your panties in a bind. Not saying all carbon frames are cheap knockoffs. Not at all. Personally, I would love a Dogma but for me, all the curvy lines just don't work and I would rather drop the money on a Parlee, Burk, Cinelli, or even the Specilized. I can't believe I am saying this but I even like the late model Trek frames.

kgt wrote:Manufacturers like Colnago or Pinarello do not care (even if they obviously can) to make a light frame because they know that at the end the frame's weight itself does not matter. They care to make a frame that performs great and looks like a precious item. You may blame them for that if you want. I don't.

I don't buy planted/solid ride feel and light weight being mutually exclusive. Look (forgive the pun!) at the 586 and 695, OK they aren't in the Cannondale Evo / BH ultralight weight category, but they feel solid underneath the rider and don't weigh in at 1200g for a size S. YMMV.

I don't disagree with that but if you make something with thicker tubes lugs (Colnago) or curves/ribs (Pinarello), heavy paints etc you easily add 100-200 grams. Colnago i.e. traditionally uses thicker carbon tubes than other manufacturers because for him this adds strength and longevity. That is just his opinion of course but I respect it.

1spd wrote: I would love a Dogma but for me, all the curvy lines just don't work

Same here... weird unaesthetic curves in the fork and seat stays, then add to this pseudo assymetrical concept (chain stays and top tube, Think2 I believe?)... they look like fussili rigati or some sort of deformed italian pasta... the head tube has a lump on its bottom part like if too much paint was used and didn't dried in time so it dripped down a bit. To top this, one side is written Pinarello, the other Dogma. All in all a no no to me. Its all a question of preference though.

I have to say, their gemetry is nice.

Weight wise... for a 5k$ frame, you gotta be at 1000grams (actual) maximum.

Yep, too many other nice frames out there for the money in my opinion. I think the Cervelo is the last one I would buy though. I have seen too many of them roll thru my buddies shop with problems. The last one he had there he had spent a solid 2 hours trying to get the front der to shift right. Turns out the rivots that hold the braze on plate to the frame had come loose and were basically pulling out of the frame. Not cool. The frame was less than a year old.

Dont have the new Think 65.1, but the Dogma 2 BoB is an interesting bike. I thought I would hate the curves and such, but at the end of the day, the aesthetics have grown on me, and I like it a lot more than I originally thought. The best way I can describe the ride quality is that of a heavy vs lightweight sports car. Not sure why Jonster's bike is so heavy, but mine with Campy SR (steel spindle), Look Blade Cro Mo, Selle Italia SLR carbon, and Lightweight gen 3/Vittoria Corsa is 6500g - 14lbs 6oz. Even with Boras, the bike would still be around 6.8kg/15lbs.

I don't think it's all about weight as I also own a Zero 7 at 5.4kg and an Impec at 6.9kg and though they ride and handle differently, I don't think it's a clear win for the Wilier. It's all personal preference.

1spd wrote:Yep, too many other nice frames out there for the money in my opinion. I think the Cervelo is the last one I would buy though. I have seen too many of them roll thru my buddies shop with problems. The last one he had there he had spent a solid 2 hours trying to get the front der to shift right. Turns out the rivots that hold the braze on plate to the frame had come loose and were basically pulling out of the frame. Not cool. The frame was less than a year old.

It took him two hours to find the problem? That's a problem in itself! Not to discount the Cervelo issue. Although I've seen riveted mounts from other brands separate, I admit I've seen it on Cervelos more than others.