We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Warning: JavaScript is required for some functionalities of this page. Please enable the use of JavaScript in your browser. Log In
Register My Account
Log Out (%1$s)

We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.

Warning: JavaScript is required for some functionalities of this page. Please enable the use of JavaScript in your browser.

The One Ring vs. Bilbo

During the whole trilogy of LotR, the dread surrounding The Ring is unbearable, and Frodo's mind is heavily trouble only by having it on a chain around his neck. In The Hobbit, Bilbo puts on The Ring numerous times and carries it a long way, but feels no dread at all. I know that when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, he meant it as a simple child story, and the story became darker and heavier only in LotR, and so the heavy dread wasn't planned when The Hobbit was written, but I was wondering if there was a lore, fictional reason for the contrast between the dread cloud surrounding The Ring in The Hobbit and in LotR...
Anyone knows if a reason was given, or has thoughts about a reason for this?

I think there are many factors to this. first of all Sauron wasn't exactly looking for the ring that time so there wasn't any pressure from that part. Bilbo viewed the ring as a simple tool to go invisible, he had no other intentions for it. Been a little while since I read the book, but I can't recall if Bilbo showed any interest in the ring at all other than using it at several occasions. I also think Bilbo has a stronger will than Frodo, but that is just me though.

"I should call that a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the gate of Erebor, until the darkness fell."http://gladdenhistory.wikispaces.com/

I think there are many factors to this. first of all Sauron wasn't exactly looking for the ring that time so there wasn't any pressure from that part. Bilbo viewed the ring as a simple tool to go invisible, he had no other intentions for it. Been a little while since I read the book, but I can't recall if Bilbo showed any interest in the ring at all other than using it at several occasions. I also think Bilbo has a stronger will than Frodo, but that is just me though.

Going off the top of my head here too, but this is mostly what I recall as well. Gollum's obsession for the ring finally drove him from the mountains, and he was captured and interrogated by the forces of Sauron. Up until this time, Sauron was busy with rebuilding his fortress and gathering his troops.

By the time the Birthday Party rolled around, the Ring's effect on Bilbo was apparent to a few at least. Gandalf noticed, and I think Frodo did as well.

Of course there's what Sam44 said as well about the differences in The Hobbit and the trilogy. The first was written withoiut the latter in mind, so Tolkien had to rework things a bit. There's lots of stuff that don't quite fit perfect.

Today is a good day for Pie.

Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of geeks, fanboys and the writers at DC...

-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Or something like that.

Seriously, what is the point of asking that question? There is no consistency between works other than what a author places (or does not place) there. Even an author's claims may at times be somewhat dubious. So, all explanations other than Tolkien's are equally invalid, but here's mine anyway: Bilbo secretly wore a mithril-foil hat under under his bounder's cap. It is also why he was safe from aliens. I know Tolkien never mentioned this, but he never denied it either.

The lore reasons would be that at the time Gandalf returns to the Shire and explains to Frodo what the Ring is Sauron now knew the Ring had been found and was actively bending his will towards it, trying to "call" it back to him. The Nazgul are also out and about and pulling on the Ring as well. Also, from a purely psychological view, Frodo knows what he's carrying in a way Bilbo never did. In the books, he doesn't really feel the dread so much in Fellowship of the Ring except when the Nazgul are near him, or other instances where Sauron's influence is close for some reason (like at Galadriel's mirror). He does always have a sense of the burden of the Ring, but I think that at that point it's more the knowledge of what it is and the crushing responsibility. It's as he travels closer and closer to Mordor that the dread and weight really begin to affect him.

I remember reading somewhere that Gandalf mentioned that Sauron had given up on ever finding the Ring believing it was forever lost. It wasn't till Gollum who eventually made his way into Mordor (after leaving the depths of the Misty Mountains) where he was captured that Sauron realized that the Ring was not lost but had found it's way to Gollum but he (Gollum) had lost it to a Hobbit named Baggins of the Shire several years earlier.

Why Gollum went to Mordor in the first place and not to the Shire is a mystery. But there were other forces at work that were not the doings of wizards, elves or men. The Ring was not destined to persist but be destroyed. Hence, why Eru Iluvatar (creater God of Arda) placed Hobbits in Middlearth. They were the only children of Iluvatar that could demonstrate a sizable resistance to it's strong corrupting influence.

However, when the Ring was nearest to where it was created no creature not even Hobbits could resist it. If it was not for Gollum insatiable desire for the Ring Frodo would have been unable to destroy it. Interesting, that one of the most powerful influences or effects that Sauron had instilled into all the 'Rings of Power' he made including 'The One Ring' (whether intentional or not) was - the insatiable, irresitable need to possess them... which was ultimately the instrument of 'The One Ring's' own downfall (and Sauron's).

Therefore, it is my conclusion that once Sauron knew the Ring was not at the bottom of the sea but reachable, he put all his will towards it and the Ring responded with burdening it's bearer with feelings of heaviness, weariness and dread. The closer the Ring got to Mordor (or to those that wielded 'the Nine') the stronger those feelings became.

I remember reading somewhere that Gandalf mentioned that Sauron had given up on ever finding the Ring believing it was forever lost. It wasn't till Gollum who eventually made his way into Mordor (after leaving the depths of the Misty Mountains) where he was captured that Sauron realized that the Ring was not lost but had found it's way to Gollum but he (Gollum) had lost it to a Hobbit named Baggins of the Shire several years earlier.

Why Gollum went to Mordor in the first place and not to the Shire is a mystery. But there were other forces at work that were not the doings of wizards, elves or men. The Ring was not destined to persist but be destroyed. Hence, why Eru Iluvatar (creater God of Arda) placed Hobbits in Middlearth. They were the only children of Iluvatar that could demonstrate a sizable resistance to it's strong corrupting influence.

However, when the Ring was nearest to where it was created no creature not even Hobbits could resist it. If it was not for Gollum insatiable desire for the Ring Frodo would have been unable to destroy it. Interesting, that one of the most powerful influences or effects that Sauron had instilled into all the 'Rings of Power' he made including 'The One Ring' (whether intentional or not) was - the insatiable, irresitable need to possess them... which was ultimately the instrument of 'The One Ring's' own downfall (and Sauron's).

Therefore, it is my conclusion that once Sauron knew the Ring was not at the bottom of the sea but reachable, he put all his will towards it and the Ring responded with burdening it's bearer with feelings of heaviness, weariness and dread. The closer the Ring got to Mordor (or to those that wielded 'the Nine') the stronger those feelings became.

Dayum! These are great answers thank you very much!
But... There's still one point I would like to add... Many of you say that Frodo knew the power and the importance of The Ring, but not Bilbo, and so Bilbo didn't care much about it. But if we look at Gollum... He didn't know at all what the ring was, but he killed his friend to get it... There too there's a contrast between Gollum's and Bilbo's reaction to the ring, even at the time of the find.

Dayum! These are great answers thank you very much!
But... There's still one point I would like to add... Many of you say that Frodo knew the power and the importance of The Ring, but not Bilbo, and so Bilbo didn't care much about it. But if we look at Gollum... He didn't know at all what the ring was, but he killed his friend to get it... There too there's a contrast between Gollum's and Bilbo's reaction to the ring, even at the time of the find.

I think some hobbits had more resistance to the ring than others, probably Smeagol(Gollum) was weak minded from the start which made the ring hold more easy, for Bilbo it took longer and this is reenforced by the fact that both Bilbo and Frodo had Took family relatives which were "more adventurous" and taller even possibly even related to elves/maiar

Dayum! These are great answers thank you very much!
But... There's still one point I would like to add... Many of you say that Frodo knew the power and the importance of The Ring, but not Bilbo, and so Bilbo didn't care much about it. But if we look at Gollum... He didn't know at all what the ring was, but he killed his friend to get it... There too there's a contrast between Gollum's and Bilbo's reaction to the ring, even at the time of the find.

Although I really don't know why, I got some guesses. First of all his resistance must have been extremely low. I'm not sure, but I think he was mistreated by his grandmother. I seem to recall Gollum complaining or mentioning his grandmother somewhere. he could also have been like an empty shell looking for a purpose in life, a wild guess though. He might also have been really greedy since he demanded the ring for himself as a birthday gift, he could have wanted it just for the gold at first.

"I should call that a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the gate of Erebor, until the darkness fell."http://gladdenhistory.wikispaces.com/

Dayum! These are great answers thank you very much!
But... There's still one point I would like to add... Many of you say that Frodo knew the power and the importance of The Ring, but not Bilbo, and so Bilbo didn't care much about it. But if we look at Gollum... He didn't know at all what the ring was, but he killed his friend to get it... There too there's a contrast between Gollum's and Bilbo's reaction to the ring, even at the time of the find.

Gollum had the Ring for 500 years, so the result is hardly surprising. And the magnitude of the influence of the Ring (at least in the short run) depends on the character of the bearer as Gandalf explained quite well in the "Shadow of the past". Gollum was a cunning and secretive egotist to begin with, and a murderer to boot. The Ring gives powers according to stature, the result was predictable.

And as people mentioned above, the actual acute influence on Frodo was due to Sauron bending his will on the Ring while it was coming ever nearer.

Reckon that's the point of this forum: asking quesitons and discussing topics like this. Who's to say any question is silly or invalid?

Frankly, anyone can give an opinion, that's the point of a discussion forum. My opinion is that this sort of thing is kinda silly. It's not really discussing Tolkien, which is what the forum is titled - the OP pretty much answered his question in that regard before he even asked it. Bilbo wasn't affected by the ring in The Hobbit simply because it wasn't the evil MacGuffin that Tolkien made it later. It was a magic trinket of the sort that people find in fairy stories. I believe even you acknowledged that.

Everything else is just fanboy fantasies. One explanation as good as the next. Pardon me if I don't find that very compelling. Perhaps if we were discussing the Professor's actual problems and strategies at having to retcon an entire small novel it might be more interesting.

I believe that the text ends at the text and not with the lattice of inferences needed to describe a consistent universe, that's all. The little joke quote was simply my way of saying that I prefer to view Tolkien rather more seriously than a schoolyard discussion of what "really" happens in the DC Universe.

I'm certainly not saying that you can't have the discussion. Knock yourself out.

Frankly, anyone can give an opinion, that's the point of a discussion forum. My opinion is that this sort of thing is kinda silly. It's not really discussing Tolkien, which is what the forum is titled - the OP pretty much answered his question in that regard before he even asked it. Bilbo wasn't affected by the ring in The Hobbit simply because it wasn't the evil MacGuffin that Tolkien made it later. It was a magic trinket of the sort that people find in fairy stories. I believe even you acknowledged that.

Everything else is just fanboy fantasies. One explanation as good as the next. Pardon me if I don't find that very compelling. Perhaps if we were discussing the Professor's actual problems and strategies at having to retcon an entire small novel it might be more interesting.

I believe that the text ends at the text and not with the lattice of inferences needed to describe a consistent universe, that's all. The little joke quote was simply my way of saying that I prefer to view Tolkien rather more seriously than a schoolyard discussion of what "really" happens in the DC Universe.

I'm certainly not saying that you can't have the discussion. Knock yourself out.

The OP asked if there was a fictional, "lore" type reason given for the difference in effect. Since Tolkien did indeed provide such reasons, (yes, yes it was all retconning, but that wasn't the question) I and others answered the OP to the best of our abilities. Sorry if we didn't rise to your level of proper, serious Tolkien discussion, and thank you for belittling us as we no doubt deserved. Had I known I was going to be graded, I'd have studied harder. :P

I'm certainly not saying that you can't have the discussion. Knock yourself out.

Beg your pardon sir. Of course you are more than welcome to state your opinion just like everyone else here. I did not mean to imply otherwise. But if you think this topic ain't worth discussin then why bother? I wouldn't myself. That's all I'm sayin.

Last edited by bambubambubambu; Jun 23 2013 at 01:26 AM.

Today is a good day for Pie.

Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

I was wondering if there was a lore, fictional reason for the contrast between the dread cloud surrounding The Ring in The Hobbit and in LotR...

Anyone knows if a reason was given, or has thoughts about a reason for this?

Okay, now you have me wondering, what did Tolkien say about about the lack of "dread cloud" in The Hobbit?

If this answer was already stated in the discussion, please forgive me. I wasn't even aware that he had made any statements on the subject, but if he did, I'd like to check the reference and read the quote. I'd also kinda like to know where Tolkien stated that Sauron was only seeking the ring during Frodo's time and not when Bilbo was adventuring. I'll admit right now that I could be wrong on this.

I'm sorry to have insulted anyone here. I'm kinda assuming a college demographic for the most part and I could be wrong on that as well. Are most posters here actually teenaged? I'm a little taken aback by the anti-intellectual current going on.

When I make a provocative statement, I am not trying to lord it over anyone or demonstrate a superiority - I am trying to provoke an intellectual response. I want people to rise to the challenge and confront me about it. Please take that as stated. If you think I'm some sort of smartass, that's fine, but please accept that I'm not being mean-spirited.

...'Alas! alas!' cried Legolas, and in his fair elvish face there was great distress. 'The tidings I was sent to bring must now be told. Smeagol, who is now called Gollum, has escaped.'

'Escaped!' cried Aragorn. 'That is ill news indeed. How came you to fail in your trust?'

'Not through lack of watchfulness,' said Legolas; 'but perhaps through over-kindliness. We had not the heart to keep him ever in dungeons under the earth.'

'You were less tender to me,' said Gloin with a flash of his eyes as old memories were stirred of his imprisonment in the deep places of the Elven-king's halls. 'We were on a quest to defeat a dragon, and you trapped and waylaid us.'

'I'm not sure that "trapped" is exactly the right word,' Legolas replied.

'"Trapped" is exactly the right word,' Gloin cried, his anger building. 'Look it up in the dictionary if you have to.'

'Well, I always interpreted "trapped" to imply a certain amount of enmity, and planning,' Legolas tried to explain. 'Yours was more of a "capture", I think-'

'No, we were "trapped",' Gloin insisted. 'It's not my interpretation, it's what happened. I was there, you know.'

'No, no, wait a minute,' Gloin said hotly, returning to the Elf. 'What's there to interpret? We were "trapped", by definition. How can you cay we were "captured" but not "trapped"?'

'It's a question of intent-' Legolas began.

Gloin cut him off. 'I didn't say anything about intent,' he snapped, rising to his feet. 'Did I say anything about intent? We were trapped. I didn't say anything about what anybody's intentions were (though they certainly must have had a foul and evil intent to waylay us on our great and noble Quest). I didn't say anything about "intentions". Don't be putting words in my mouth.'

'Hey,' Legolas insisted, 'I was only talking about whether we "trapped" you or merely "captured" you. But I wouldn't have brought it up at all if I'd known you were going to get all hysterical.'

'Oh! So now I'm hysterical?' Gloin shouted. 'You liar! You put words in my mouth and then lie about me.'

'I - what?' Legolas gasped, trying to follow Gloin's angry words.

'Every time you open your mouth I'm going to remind everyone at this Council that you're a liar,' Gloin vowed.

This was too much for Legolas, who stood and turned away. 'I don't think we two can hold intelligent discourse any more,' the Elf said angrily. 'Whatever you may say, I'm no longer going to listen to your words.'

But Gloin stood and, rounding the table at great speed, grabbed Legolas and shouted into his leaf-shaped ear. 'Gonna ignore me, huh?' the angry Dwarf shouted. 'Gonna call me hysterical and then ignore me, huh? Well, ignore this! Liar, liar, liar!' he yelled, directly into Legolas' face so there would be no chance of ignoring him.

'Can we get back to the Ring?' Aragorn asked.

'No, wait, my honor's been besmirched,' Gloin demanded. 'I'd be happy to talk about the Ring, but everyone else here keeps on impugning my character. And I'm sick of it.'

'Will you shut the hell up!' Boromir shouted, standing suddenly and pulling his great broadsword in his rage. 'I'm sick and tired of your arguing! Shut the hell up and listen! We were talking about Gollum and the Ring! Can we get back to that, please?'

'I don't think the current conversation is being very constructive,' Aragorn agreed.

Gloin looked at the two Men, a surly look on his face. 'Oh, sure, it's easy for the people who aren't involved in the argument to play at being peacemaker. Their honor isn't at stake! But if either of you were involved in this argument, you'd understand that dropping it isn't as easy as all that.'

'I've been in many a battle-' Boromir announced.

'Yeah, I bet,' Gloin said dismissively.

'Maybe you could both just put this behind you, so that we can get back to weightier matters,' Aragorn suggested.

'Why are you taking his side?' Gloin snapped at the Dunedain, indicating the silent Legolas with the edge of his axe. 'I think I've already had enough &&&& from you and your ancestors. Wasn't it Beren who murdered the Dwarves who were transporting the Nauglamir? And now you suddenly want to elect yourself as peacemaker?'

Aragorn said no more; and taking Frodo by the hand he walked silently away from the incensed group, who took little notice of the departure.

Bilbo, who had Gloin's friendship in days gone by, turned quietly to the angry Dwarf. 'It seems to me that you and Legolas are not exactly listening to each other too clearly right now,' he said simply. 'Maybe you both ought to just relax, maybe agree to disagree, as we say in the Shire. I mean, we're old friends, yet Dwarven ways are sometimes strange even to me! Think well, Gloin! Will you not calm down?'

There was a pause, and Gloin seemed briefly to consider these words; but after a moment, his former anger and pride recaptured him and he remained steadfast. 'No, I cannot allow his heinous lies to stand,' Gloin insisted. 'I did not undergo all that I have to come to this Council just to be called "hysterical" by some liar.' He glared long and hard at Legolas as he spat out this word. 'And I don't think you should be siding with the abuser here.'

'This is just making me sick,' Glorfindel suddenly announced.

'That's it! I've had enough of these lies,' Gloin snapped, and turned to Elrond. 'I'm complaining about the behaviour of Legolas and Glorfindel. I want you to throw them both out of the discussion!'

'I agree with Gloin!' shouted Gimli.

'No,' said Elrond clearly and distinctly. 'I'm not going to play referee for you. Sit the hell down and start behaving like adults. That's the very last word I'm saying on the subject.'

There was a short pause. 'These Elves,' Gloin muttered angrily under his breath. 'They always reply both no and yes. Can't trust any of 'em. Unruly &&&&&&&&.'

A long silence followed. Finally Gandalf cleared his throat and attempted a change of subject. 'I was down in Rohan the other day,' the Wizard began. 'Wormtongue lied to me of Theoden.'

Gloin arose again, pulling his axe from his belt. 'Are you trying to imply that I'm a liar?' he demanded...

I think some hobbits had more resistance to the ring than others, probably Smeagol(Gollum) was weak minded from the start which made the ring hold more easy, for Bilbo it took longer and this is reenforced by the fact that both Bilbo and Frodo had Took family relatives which were "more adventurous" and taller even possibly even related to elves/maiar

Do forget that 'possibly' business, the idea of them having some exotic ancestry is a complete red herring - it's dismissed as 'absurd' in the very narrative that mentions it. And let's not forget Sam, who despite his lack of any Tookish side could still reject the Ring's temptations - it seems to me that the key quality was nobility of spirit, which was likewise a quality that Faramir possessed in far greater measure than his brother Boromir and we all know what happened there. It's a quality more commonly associated with Elves, but it wasn't unique to them.

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

Do forget that 'possibly' business, the idea of them having some exotic ancestry is a complete red herring - it's dismissed as 'absurd' in the very narrative that mentions it. And let's not forget Sam, who despite his lack of any Tookish side could still reject the Ring's temptations - it seems to me that the key quality was nobility of spirit, which was likewise a quality that Faramir possessed in far greater measure than his brother Boromir and we all know what happened there. It's a quality more commonly associated with Elves, but it wasn't unique to them.

Good point for once rad, Yes nobility spirit was prevalecent thorough the stories, but having a extraordinary ancentry helps, that is why Frodo is the ring bearer and not Sam and also most of the time sam adresses frodo as his chief.

For the record I think its linked nobility of spirit and heritage, that is also prevalecent in most lore just like Aragorn, Elendil and noble elves all share this.

that is why Frodo is the ring bearer and not Sam and also most of the time sam adresses frodo as his chief.

Frodo didn't have any special noble heritage as far as I know, if that's what you're sayin. And I don't recall Sam referring to him as chief. He called him Master Frodo, but this was mainly a sign of respect for his elder, and the Baggins family in general.

I reckon it all has more to do with the quality of the individual's character when it comes to resisting the Ring and evil in general. I think that's what the others are getting at with the nobility of spirit.

Today is a good day for Pie.

Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

True, but Boromir is an exception to the rule, in more lore Galadriel, Gil-Galad, Elrond, Aragorn, Tuor, Hurin and even more are the ones that resist the evil the most.

Boromir had noble heritage and noble spirit, but he was corrupted, even frodo becomes corrupted, I think Tolkien explicitly says that man race is easily corrupted by evil, compared to elves, hobbits, dwarves.

Frodo didn't have any special noble heritage as far as I know, if that's what you're sayin. And I don't recall Sam referring to him as chief. He called him Master Frodo, but this was mainly a sign of respect for his elder, and the Baggins family in general.

Yes he did. he has took ancestry, Sam called him Master because frodo was more noble than him.

I reckon it all has more to do with the quality of the individual's character when it comes to resisting the Ring and evil in general. I think that's what the others are getting at with the nobility of spirit.

Its heritage and nobility of spirit, let me put it simpler a hobbit noble is possibly able to resist evil the most because "noble" means "noble character". its that simple.