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Doesn't everyone do that? Wait, I guess not, but...how do people formulate their personal guidelines without observing general principles in society and the effects of keeping them or breaking them?

I don't know. I feel like some people formulate rules that are wholly separate from society's rules. By an extraverted approach, I just meant that I am more mindful of context than trying to achieve some internal consistency of feeling or attitude. I am more confident dealing with external context rather than internal states and my own responses.

Rather than formulate rules for myself I try to extrapolate "laws" of human conduct at work in the world.

yeah, absolutely. also with tertiary Fe guiding social conduct and a wide-reaching awareness of overall happiness?
(also, every time i hear the word "happiness" i now associate it with ted talks)

i'm really interested your statement. i see perhaps the w6 also tempering various elements often associated with entp and really providing a strong desire to be a strong and stable force within the community, a pillar, a voice of reason and leadership, etc. it creates a type of selflessness, desire to be of value to others, foundational welcoming quality others immediately appreciate. and your statement may show a mental process the entp uses to do this.

i don't know where critique, comedy, and a general T disdain or mirth fall into play with this sincere desire for rules for right conduct.

yeah, absolutely. also with tertiary Fe guiding social conduct and a wide-reaching awareness of overall happiness?
(also, every time i hear the word "happiness" i now associate it with ted talks)

I believe fully in circumstances creating happiness. How do you decide which circumstances result in optimal happiness? What if two people differ on how the circumstances should be? There has to be a way to arbitrate based on objective criteria or there is no ideal reality. I take certain assumptions like it is best to be compassionate and honest and calculate from there.

i'm really interested your statement. i see perhaps the w6 also tempering various elements often associated with entp and really providing a strong desire to be a strong and stable force within the community, a pillar, a voice of reason and leadership, etc. it creates a type of selflessness, desire to be of value to others, foundational welcoming quality others immediately appreciate. and your statement may show a mental process the entp uses to do this.

The older I get the more I want to help people thrive. To do that means sometimes representing the voice of "reason". Sometimes this means counterintuitive arguments that fly in the face of the conventional attitudes, such as that premarital sex is no big deal. There is so much floating around that is plainly bad for people. I like to try to identify what is good for people and advocate for it, even if unpopular.

i don't know where critique, comedy, and a general T disdain or mirth fall into play with this sincere desire for rules for right conduct.

Critique, comedy, disdain, and mirth all stem from a peculiar sort of idealism, I think. I want life to mean something, even if we have to cobble together meaning ourselves from nothingness.

I have never met a single INFJ in my life and I do not know what they look like.
(except maybe my psychologist and therapist, but she doesn't seem like the type I am attracted to and fall in love with, and I am not 100% certain what her type is)

to the op: Maybe its the forces of good and evil naturally attract each other?

suggesting that infjs can lack an awareness of social cues and signals that define boundaries and outline intentions? and without spending serious effort and energy maintaining a healthy and accurate portrayal of the situation through these forms of communication, they can lead people on?

as far as a more far-reaching critique of values, this moves towards infjs needing to be more self-sufficient and less dangerously anais-nin like (assuming we did in fact type her as an infj?) or deriving too much of their identity in their ability to explore others without serious investment?

I've really tried hard to pay attention to social cues and boundaries in the past. But....When I'm being too polite, I don't talk to or look at anyone. When I'm being impolite, I appear as a husband/boyfriend/girlfriend stealer. Even when attempting a medium between the two, I still come off as hitting on people when I'm doing no such thing. It can be frustrating.

I really don't know what the medium is. I've decided to be natural about it and not push either extreme. And part of this is accepting the rejection that may come with it. For the most part, I've not had this problem because I rarely approach people and when I do, I try to be respectful. The whole process is unconventional so it takes some effort to ease myself into it. I can appear to not be paying attention to someone and then all of a sudden I'm right next to the person, which is unnerving. A newly acquired friend of mine did it to me, and I think the person is INFJ and he is pretty much in denial from my perspective.

I do have boundaries though and just recently learned to establish them. One of my many counselors told me I am too much like Switzerland, and that stuck with me, and really helped me define my stances with certain people. At this point, I simply create magnetism between myself and people I want to know, and those I don't want to know, create a force field between them and me. These boundaries are usually respected. When they arenít, I usually alert one of my male friends who are around, because it usually that serious.

I take genuine interest in people because I'm interested. There's no other reason. It's hard to explain this to people. It seems as if society is set up so one has to have an alterior motive when expressing interest in someone. Seems like we have to actually want something tangible from the person.

Originally Posted by fidelia

I don't miss anything except the entertaining stories 10 years after the fact. Like the 400ish pound, ponytailed, twice a day coffee shop visitor, 20 years older than me guy that worked at the porn shop down the road from my friend's coffee shop where I liked to hang out and jam with others. Sometimes I'd clear tables or eat there just because I was around quite a bit. Grim and I rarely exchanged words other than maybe a nod or something, but when I left town, he arranged for me to receive several thoughtfully made pieces of artwork made to represent me and a 10 page letter on fancy stationary apologizing for having hurt me so badly by putting up such high walls, which I could see through anyway. He got all that from me saying, "Are you done with your coffee cup?"

Or a schitzophrenic man 10 years older than me who believed that my parents were keeping us apart and who wrote letters to my parents telling them in graphic detail that I was woman enough for him to be aware that I craved his body and had displayed my aching longing to him on numerous occasions (followed by letters with religious insults such as "you whited sepulchur" etc directed at my mother after they told him not to continue contacting me).

Yep...don't miss those days...

Wow. If this is not some INFJ shit, I don't know what is.

Originally Posted by Synarch

Here's the thing, also. Do women tend to initiate contact as much as men? Why do you think this is?

I think they do. But not as overtly. And I think it's more of passively placing oneself in the right place at the right time.

And again, I think society plays into this. I've heard so many times, "Men don't like women who chase, etc, blah effin blah because the women appear easy." I've heard otherwise from men. So I'm not sure who these men are who are saying this, and indeed if they are, I wonder what their confidence levels are. I want nothing to do with them honestly.

I mean really..are women supposed to be standing around waiting on some freakin tall dark and handsome guy in armor riding on a white metrosexual horse like the one donkey turned into in Shrek (ok I'm weird and I have kids)?

That dude passed me by several times in my early adulthood. I know I'm not his type and he is certainly not mine.

I do have boundaries though and just recently learned to establish them. One of my many counselors told me I am too much like Switzerland, and that stuck with me, and really helped me define my stances with certain people. At this point, I simply create magnetism between people who I want to know, and those I don't want to know, create a force field between them and me. These boundaries are usually respected. When they arenít, I usually alert one of my male friends who are around, because it usually that serious.

I take genuine interest in people because I'm interested. There's no other reason. It's hard to explain this to people. It seems as if society is set up so one has to have an alterior motive when expressing interest in someone. Seems like we have to actually want something tangible from the person.

I can identify with this. The force field thing also rang a bell. I have had a number of people tell me that while I seem warm, they have the distinct feeling that I would not welcome them touching me. I was surprised at first, as I actually am quite comfortable with physical affection. However in those cases, I think I probably was sending out clear signals of where their boundaries would be in accordance to how I felt about our acquaintanceship.

I have had a number of people tell me that while I seem warm, they have the distinct feeling that I would not welcome them touching me. I was surprised at first, as I actually am quite comfortable with physical affection. However in those cases, I think I probably was sending out clear signals of where their boundaries would be in accordance to how I felt about our acquaintanceship.

How have you reacted with those who purposely violate the boundary?

I had a very blatant violation about 6 months ago.

I totally went into shadow mode and shut down someone's house party.

Even after I'd told this person he'd overstepped the boundary, he still proceeded as if I hadn't articulated my wishes.

I was sickenly fascinated with my poor behavior afterwards, somewhat guilty for being such an ass in someone else's home, but my point was made and my boundary still intact.

Why does this seem like a war with us sometimes?

Not to derail the thread cuz it's all about the Mad Scientists, but I'm still curious...