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Topic: Modding Ideal Family Size influence (Read 9287 times)

Now I have finally got ACR set up for my age duration mod (just one line I was missing!), I would like to edit one more part to my liking.

Specifically, the weighting for ideal family size. Currently the chance to TFB is modified as such: +20 when below the limit, and -20 for every child over the limit. However, it appears there is no such check for whether the current number of kids matches this number, meaning setting it to 0 is somewhat pointless as it doesn't apply any penalty to TFB and they tend to end up TFB anyway.

What I'd like to do is add a sizeable penalty, say -40 or -50 if the number matches, with the -20 stacking on top of that if they have multiple kids too many. Once they have their perfect family size, in my opinion, they shouldn't be attempting to have more kids. As it stands what's happening is that this setting is effectively putting their family size one higher than the number is set to.

It seems like it would be an easy enough fix. But I can't for the life of me find which part calculates whether they choose TFB or woohoo, which is totally separate from pregnancy odds, or the other thing I am looking for is the place where the bonus/penalty values are stored. (Although I'm sure it will be the BHAV which makes them choose woohoo/TFB)

I think I need to be looking in the bed/sofa/hot tub socials. That's where the code seems to be to determine whether they try for baby. I even found a line which gets the value of the Ideal Family Size, but I'm lost after that.

And yeah, I can't believe it took me this long to notice either! Just realised as I'd decided to put the dialogs on for the first time ever, and I noticed my fortune/fortune couple with no desire for kids seemed to have a really high chance to TFB and decided to investigate. Basically without the Ideal Family Size setting taking into account whether they already have their perfect family size, if a couple have no children together they are ALWAYS going to TFB even if they have the "wrong" aspiration for it.

Me too! When I found the game ignored the *8 sims per household* rule when Brandi decided to fall for her tenth I decided there was no way she was having any more! (I think Don rather felt the same, since he was the one doing most of the looking after!)

Logged

"All the world's a Neighbourhood, and all the men and women merely Sims." ZephyrZodiac with apologies to Willie Waggledagger.

No TFB for unmarried does work, although accidental pregnancy is still possible. I too have rarely set the ideal family size simply because I'd have to come up with some kind of standards for what that size would be. For the most part, the sims will stop making babies when they are ready to stop making babies (wants and fears).

Participant is pregnant -90Participants already have a baby -25Participants already have a toddler -20Participants already have a child -35Participants already have a teen or YA -40Participants already have an adult -50(Calculated only for the mother, or initiator with same-sex pregnancy)

A weighted average of Mom & potential dadís settings (if they have one) is calculated (4:1 or 4 times mom + dad / 5) and momís live kidís only are counted (minus aliens, same as existing kid penalty) to determine the bonus or penalty which is +/-20 per kid over or under the ideal.

The calculation starts at 100%.

So let's say you have an ideal family size of 2 with a knowledge/knowledge couple.They start with no kids.0 for aspiration+40 for being 2 children under their limit= 160% chance to TFB.

Now they have one child, a baby.0 for aspiration-25 for baby+20 for being one child under their limit.= 95% chance to TFB.

Now they have two children, a toddler and a baby.0 for aspiration-20 for toddler-25 for baby0 for being at their limit (neutral - I think this should be a penalty)=55% chance to TFB. Pretty high considering they are supposed to be done?

Let's try with another low family size and anti-children aspirations. Pleasure + Fortune couple, ideal family 1.No children:-45 for aspiration+20 for being one under family size=75% chance to TFB.

With one toddler:-45 for aspiration-20 for toddler0 for being at ideal family size35% chance to TFB.

With one baby and one toddler-45 for aspiration-20 for toddler-25 for baby-20 for being one child over ideal size10% chance to TFB. Ideally, this is about the percentage I want when they've hit that limit, not when they have exceeded it.

When it's set to 0, there is no penalty when the couple have no children, meaning even a Pleasure/Pleasure couple have a chance to TFB of 40%, and the neutral aspirations (Knowledge and cheese) have a 100% chance!

TL;DR version:It works very well as a goal, to keep them trying past when their existing number of kids would usually let them, and they can still become overwhelmed by their existing number of kids based on aspiration.

It works pretty well as a limiter if you want the family to have at least one child, just set it one number lower than you would have. (Because the modifier is neutral rather than negative when number of kids matches IFS). Hence, it works terribly to represent sims who don't want children at all. And yes, I could put them on birth control or set them individually not to TFB, but that's not what I want really. I'd like them to have a (small) chance to be "done" but to think "Oh, maybe just one more!" or for them to be careless and think "Oh, would it be so bad anyway?" - but a 40-100% chance is way too high IMO.

There is a BCON where you can change the bonuses for TFB, but it doesn't include ideal family size as that was added at a later date.

I stopped a long time ago using any settings other than "Birth Control on/off" and "Can Get Pregnant on/off", since I found that none of the other settings are effective at all in controlling family size.I don't even trust the "Unmarried cannot TFB" setting, because even if TJ programmed that setting properly, I'm not confident that any of the EAxis code honors it. For all I know, John and Mary might decide that they can TFB because they're married, even if it's not to each other!

And yes, I realize that immersion is totally shot if you use absolute settings such as Birth Control and Can Get Pregnant. Sims can no longer surprise you. But what the hell...

I have one couple of Romance Sims. These two have only two main interests: music and each other. Either they are continuously all over one another for woohoo or TFB (it's all the same to them) or they make a beeline for the Piano (him) and the Bass (her). They don't care about or mind having children; they just have children. None of my other playables have Romance as primary aspiration, and those are the ones I must watch like a hawk: especially the Family and Knowledge Sims are dangerous! They woohoo/TFB with anyone anywhere, and invariably have many more children than is good for them or me, unless I stop them!

OK, I have found a BHAV called Sub - Try For Baby - Get Ideal Family Adjustments in T0

Wondering if I could just set it to calculate the mother's current number of children, (as I've found its hers that count, not children together) and then add one before doing the remaining calculations. That would do well enough for my purposes.

With the dialogs on, I can see when they are actually choosing to TFB and when they aren't, and that does seem to be working as to the code: it's an oversight, I think, that they don't get a penalty when they have reached the limit, only when they exceed it.

Something to look at....0 means 0 (or -1 means 0). I know plenty of married couples that have no desire for children, especially in the Wealth and Knowledge aspirations using Sim terms. Use -1 to be unset and work as the current 0 does.

Is it going to calculate the fathers ideal number as well? Typically, I roll for ideal Number of kids: Family Sims- 1d8 + 1, other aspirations -1d4, Family secondary is automatically a d6 roll, and romance is set to 0. So, my fathers and mothers almost always have a different ideal number.

It doesn't make a difference. It does take a weighted average of the two but even when they are set exactly the same there is still no penalty given when they're already at the level, only when they are over it.

I'm frustrated now, because I've got a potential solution but I am lost as to where to slot it in. The terms local value, temporary value, stack object etc, are these SimPE specific things, or are they general programming terms? I am in general quite shit at programming, always have been. (I was a great web designer until I encountered CSS!) I was wondering if there is such a thing as a glossary for the different common terms you come across within BHAVs? I am looking at various BHAV tutorials on MTS, but mostly they are about doing specific things which are nothing to do with what I want to do. I suppose I could try going through every single tutorial possible and try to gain a more general knowledge, and I probably will, in time. I suspect this is a pretty simple thing to add though, similar to single-step edits I've made in the past successfully. Getting a bit lost in locals and temps and set to next etc though.

Finding a good guide into SimAntics is all but impossible. I know of no other program that ever used it, beside the Sims franchise. I think that what you need might be as simple as changing a ">" expression to ">=", or it might require adding a complete block of code to add a new test for the current number of kids meeting the calculated maximum in stead of exceeding it.

You know what? Give me the name of the .package you're looking at, and the instance number of the BHAV, and I'll take a look as well. I think I know what needs to be done, but it would be a lot easier if I have the code in front of me. I won't promise for certain that I'll get it working, but I can at least try.

Yeah. I didn't expect it to just be *that* easy. I mean, it *could* be, but just as easily there might be a lot more to it than that.And you're right: the Sofa Socials, Hot Tub Socials and Photo Booth may require a similar update. And my ACR-patch for P4A - Alien Trigger Override may need attention as well.

Anyway, this may take me a while to figure out, because ACR is a rather big mod and TJ put a lot of time into it. We can't expect to even understand the code in just a day or so.

I'm enjoying watching people poke around in something this big and complex!

Yeah! How about taking a look at the autonomous propose relationships while you guys are at it! Plllleeeassseee ?

Surely something could be done with it.... such a great idea. Come on BO, you can do it! If I understand correctly, the problem was that they were randomly breaking up and such, or something like that. Maybe tweaking LTR and STR thresholds somehow?

@total_immortal: ZZ is right! After months of trying (and I'm certain that he attempted tweaking the LTR and STR values, too) even TJ himself - the original creator of ACR, the SimBlender, the Visitor Controller and so many other enormous mods - gave up! And now you're asking rusty little old *me* to fix it??

If TJ could not do it, I'm sure I can't do it either! Sorry, but I'm afraid I must decline this honor.

If I could make sense of the sims 2 coding, I'd try myself even though it may seem impossible. If there was some way to actually code things in Sims 2 by looking at the actual code rather than having to know all the ins and outs of SimPE, i might have more luck in figuring it out (coding for sims2). I've modded for a few other games that wer epretty extensive in their programming but for some reason i've not been able to crack sims2. I'm sure if I sat down and tried i might be able to figure it out but sometimes I just have to step away from it when it gets to me too much.

If I knew how to mod for sims 2 though, here's how I'd tackle it: First i'd create a seperate mod and try to do a barebones attempt at it. I'd try to find out how to code it to where they'd randomly ask to get engaged or go steady, and randomly break up, just to get that part down. Then, I'd make it more sophistcated, checking for relationship flags. Once all of that worked then I'd start adding a few more checks and such, thresholds for LTR and STR. Then personality types... for example, romance sims more likely to break up after a fight than family oriented sims, since they like dating scene.

I've mentioned the SimSlice beer before, it prompts that propose reaction. if it could be isolated, it could be adjusted to check for these flags before the interaction. Adding it to ACR would probably be more complicated but creating a stand alone mod might work. For example... a table that could be placed in a fancy restaurant community lot, maybe cloned from a card table but only for 2. they go to the table and the table checks them for certain flags and thresholds of LTR and STR, and so on. If the conditions are right, Sim A proposes to Sim B. You could then add other flags as needed.

I'd imagine you could do the same for autonomous breakups. some sort of cloned household object that could be placed on home lots or community lots that would check sims for relationships first, then sims that are in relationships that have a low STR and angry flags set with their significant other might finally say enough is enough and break up with that sim if they are on the lot. Would be for some interesting community lot spectacles!

Not denying TJ's Sims 2 awesomeness, but perhaps it is possible in seperate, object based mods. C'mon guys, you can do this!

Please, t_i, take no for an answer this time... Don't you think others have tried your approach? Yet there is still no such thing as a reliable autonomous propose system for Sims 2.

Me? I'm just not sure where to begin on something like this... It would need to be random within a few certain limits, yet not so random that sims propose now, and break up again five minutes later. THAT is the hard part, and I would fail at it. I'm the man for the reliable non-random bits, but not for this.

So really, take it from one who knows: THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Sorry to disappoint you, and sorry to shout at you, but how else am I going to say it so you will accept my refusal?

Just adding my 2 cents.TJ said it couldn't be done. That's enough for me as a gamer and programmer.

Is an autonomous proposal, marriage and breakup important to me and my game. Absolutely not. While I'm pretty much a hands off player, I would have a problem with this as a functioning feature. From what I've seen of others play styles, I haven't run across any gamer that I can think would welcome this to their game to disrupt their internal stories for their playable sims.

The community as a whole does not want this feature, and the majority that think they do would soon realize it doesn't fit their game.

You can ask for others who are experienced at modding to make this, but if the modder says no, that's it. Continuing to bug the modder will do nothing but piss them off. (BO, incidently is quickly reaching that stage.) We respect what has been done by others, and under rare circumstances will we make modifications to their work. Yes, i have done so but only after the modder has been gone for a while and a mod needs updated for more recent EPs. ACR is one of those mods, I wouldn't touch. It works now. It doesn't need updating, other than removing the autonomous relationship status so requests like this are avoided.

That being said, if you want to attempt to mod it, go for it. If you have any questions about Simantics, feel free to ask. I don't know what experience you've had in serious programming with the various programming languages. Simantics is more like an interpreted Assembly Language, a step above machine code, with a touch of BASIC tossed in, than any of the higher level languages. Anything you can do in the higher languages can be done, just with more steps. If you've had any experience with LUA programming it would help, but not strictly necessary.

Damn guys, I didn't know a half-joking wishful thinking attempt at getting someone to re-examine the auto propose relationship/auto breakup in ACR was blasphemous around here! My persistence wasn't to annoy anyone, but I'm always skeptical of the mindset of "It cannot be done!" "Well, have YOU tried it?" "No, but it's impossible! The best of the best have already tried and failed!" Geez, think of how many innovations wouldn't been made if their inventors had that attitude about things.

It's unfortunate that the auto propose relationship function wasn't left in, at the very least. But I'll not bother you guys with such mundane requests anymore. Peace

You're not bothering us with mundane requests, and it's not blasphemous to ask about ANYTHING, t_i. You can joke about it as much as you want. We won't get angry about that. We're just saying that it doesn't change our position. It's just that once someone tells you they're not interested in trying, there is no point in going on about it. That's all there is to it.

I agree, that if mankind had always felt this way about things that were previously impossible, we would now have no airplanes and space shuttles. But this is only a game...

While your first post appears to be somewhat lighthearted in nature, your second post on the matter seemed to outline how we should go about doing it. And not in a somewhat lighthearted, half-joking manner. It came off as more of a demand, and, I believe, that's what pissed off BO. That's what prompted me to speak out.

Neither BO nor I have done any serious modding in the past couple of years. Neither of us have delved into the relationship aspect of the game, so it's brand new material for both of us. That's not a portion of the game I ever had an interest in looking into, so even if I was up the task skill-wise, i.e., haven't forgotten anything, I wouldn't give it my best effort. It doesn't interest me. I don't want my game deciding who gets into an engagement or marriage for my sims. Last time I checked out Cyjon's site, it doesn't appear he's modding now either.

So it becomes an issue of who of the more trusted modders are still working in TS2. Honestly, I can't think of any off the top of my head. At least none that would get into this area of the game.

I've hesitated in mentioning this because many are just outright against Chris Hatch's work, but included in his Angels and Nurses (family friendly) and Tits and Arse (adult oriented) is the ability for family aspiration townies to autonomously get engaged and married on a community lot venue. He provides all the objects and the code for that to happen. LTR/STR requirements are still in place. Playable sims are not affected by this feature. It is completely independent from ACR. I don't recall if it is available as a stand alone mod or not. I also don't know if this would satisfy your "half-joking wishful thinking".

It came off as more of a demand, and, I believe, that's what pissed off BO.

You have come to know me well, AH. Pissed off may be slightly too strong a phrase, really, but exactly *that* bit pushed the buttons to make me speak as firmly as I did.

Even if Cyjon was still modding, he wouldn't take requests. He clearly states on his site, that he purely codes to please his own desires, and simply allows everyone to enjoy the game the way HE wants it to be. If we don't like the way he modded something, tough luck for us. DIY or forget it. And from what I've seen, he doesn't exhibit any tendencies to muck about with the relationships, either.

The only one remaining modder that comes to my mind, would be Aaroneous. He certainly has skill! I don't know exactly where he stands with regards to this issue, but I don't see him delve deeply into this relationship stuff...

While your first post appears to be somewhat lighthearted in nature, your second post on the matter seemed to outline how we should go about doing it. And not in a somewhat lighthearted, half-joking manner. It came off as more of a demand, and, I believe, that's what pissed off BO. That's what prompted me to speak out.

I think there was just some misunderstanding in my 2nd post. I first outlined how I would tackle the problem if I had any luck with the Sims2 stuff, just to prompt some dialogue about it. It's how I approach my other modding when I can't figure out something. I mod for Ultima 7 The Black Gate with the Exult Engine. I suppose it's similar to the C languages, but I couldn't tell you exactly. I program like I play the guitar.... I couldn't tell you what chord I'm playing, I just know how to pick a tune and can learn a song pretty quick if I'm determined to learn it. I couldn't tell you the high tech jargon with programming, but I can usually learn how to do it.

I re-read my post, and after how I outlined how *I* would attempt it, I used the word "You" a few times. It's a bad habit of mine, when explaining stuff I use "you" in the general sense... I wasn't saying "You, BO, could..." or "You, AH, could.." So that might be why it came off in a demanding tone, but it wasn't intended in that way.

I have tried the T&A mod which is why I still believe it could be possible, even if just autonomous proposals if certain conditions are met. The mod is pretty cool however I'm not sure I like townies being generated automatically, which is the major hangup I had on his mod. I don't usually like my townies to be auto created, I like having them be born in game and create them as townies with the blender or something.

@t_i: I will agree that it certainly must be *possible*... The problem, though, is that sims change their mind regularly! One moment, your sim loves their partner unconditionally, but five minutes later your sim is doing the horizontal shuffle with a visitor. NOT, mind you, because they love their partner less, but because the visitor somehow was *temporarily* more desirable!

It would be all but impossible to tweak and tune it in such a way that this temporary insanity does not cause your sims to break up for a one-night stand. Your sim might break up with their partner to propose to the visitor. But as soon as the visitor goes home, your sim regrets the proposal but the damage to their relationship with their partner is irreparable (sp?).

And that tweaking is SO much work, and would take such a long time, that it's not worth it for any modder. ACR as it is, already works, after all! Why would one mess with that for just so little result?

Besides, there's also a lot of respect for TJ and his work involved. It's not just for shits that we (the admins) keep this forum going, purely out of our own pockets. It's to maintain availability for TJ's mods. Imagine that I would lose a year's sleep over this one aspect of ACR. Let's also assume that I get it done. Is ACR then *my* work, or TJ's? I wouldn't steal his glory, but not being recognized for my effort would also be unbearable! THAT is part of why probably nobody will ever mess with this. TJ left ACR in this state, and that is how it will be maintained. Simple fixes, if necessary, will be done, but no restructure of the heart of his work. It's just not important (enough) to us to have that feature.

And yes, there is also the issue of having been out of the scene for a while and not having any experience with modding THIS specific aspect of the game. We would still have to learn how to get it right. TJ didn't write this stuff in a few weeks, either, you know?