But his "success" rested on systemic corruption that went beyond anything he could have personally orchestrated, although he was a wilful player.

This is about as naive as it gets. Armstrong as the USADA Reasoned Decision clearly points out was the initiator, instigator, mastermind, comptroller, conducter and hub of the greatest sports fraud in history. The system (The UCI, the TDF and Cycling USA) only let him get away with it.

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I have vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals
- Butch Cassidy

In the world of lying cheating sociopathic scumbagging professionals such as Bernie Madoff and Armstrong, the difference is:

Madoff gave his post-conviction confession interview to a news journalist who had complete access to the facts. Madoff didn't need to show up.

But, Armstrong gave his "Guess what DOJ, USADA, & WADA? I'm still holding all the cards but I've promised to be completely honest." interview to a former daytime talk-show host. Technically, Armstrong didn't need to show up either.

This is about as naive as it gets. Armstrong as the USADA Reasoned Decision clearly points out was the initiator, instigator, mastermind, comptroller, conducter and hub of the greatest sports fraud in history. The system (The UCI, the TDF and Cycling USA) only let him get away with it.

How do you or USADA know whether this was the greatest doping scheme ever?
The fact is none of us know. Presumably there were equally sophisticated doping operations going on elsewhere, mostly still undiscovered.

I have no intention in talking about his family.
They are not to blame for his actions.

Why is family off limits? When we talk about the ones he bullied, Betsy and Frankie Andreu, Greg and Kathy Lemond, these are all families, so why can't we talk about Armstrong's? I never said his family is to be blamed for his behaviour, but they have to deal with his crap too; his son had to defend him, he even got Kristin involved in the drug distribution.

Why is family off limits? When we talk about the ones he bullied, Betsy and Frankie Andreu, Greg and Kathy Lemond, these are all families, so why can't we talk about Armstrong's? I never said his family is to be blamed for his behaviour, but they have to deal with his crap too; his son had to defend him, he even got Kristin involved in the drug distribution.

believe it or not, there is a level of decorum here, even in The Clinic.

we do not discuss children. period.

they have access to the internet and what you say can be very hurtful to them. be honourable -- let it go. don't talk about the kids.

wives, ex-wives (especially when they are complicit), and girlfriends seem to be fair game.

Why is family off limits? When we talk about the ones he bullied, Betsy and Frankie Andreu, Greg and Kathy Lemond, these are all families, so why can't we talk about Armstrong's? I never said his family is to be blamed for his behaviour, but they have to deal with his crap too; his son had to defend him, he even got Kristin involved in the drug distribution.

Why is family off limits? When we talk about the ones he bullied, Betsy and Frankie Andreu, Greg and Kathy Lemond, these are all families, so why can't we talk about Armstrong's? I never said his family is to be blamed for his behaviour, but they have to deal with his crap too; his son had to defend him, he even got Kristin involved in the drug distribution.

We don't talk about them because they were families - we talk about them because each individual was bullied - we don't mention Frankie Andreu's brothers or sisiters - because THEY WEREN'T INVOLVED.

Betsy was involved - not as family, but as a witness in her own right. Same with Kathy. Same with Kristen for that matter.

Armstrongs pre-teenage kids had damn all to do with it.

So yes, families are off limits, unless they are actually involved in the story.

The family question is a tricky one. Discussion of partner's participation in doping practices is allowed, especially when the rider in question has already commented on it.

The kids: on the whole, we stay away from them. IN this particular instance, Armstrong himself introduced the issue, my mentioning his oldest son.

I think the best thing to do is just for everyone to say, "This is very hard for his kids" and leave it at that. There is not really anything to be gained by going into more detail, nor frankly, is it really relevant to this forum.

Susan

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I dream of a better world, where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.