And Communists? Where have you been since 1992? Communist parties the world over are lucky to get 1% in free elections.

All hope is not lost.

Communist Party of Nepal: "The Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) (CPN (M)) placed first in the election with 220 out of 575 elected seats"

Japanese Communist Party: "At the July 2007 elections for the House of Councillors, it received 7.5%."

Communist Party of the Russian Federation: "At the last parliamentary elections in 2011, the popularity raised, and they received 19.19% of the vote and 92 seats."

The first two numbers are a bit dated (2007), but from what I understand, these are the most successful communist parties in the world right now outside of the communist states. Better than 1%!

On topic, I completely agree with your post about Christians playing the political correctness persecution card all the time. What is more mind blowing to me is that sensible people actually believe them sometimes! It's like when otherwise sensible atheists join in with Christians criticizing Dawkins for being "rude". Completely unfounded, feeds their bogus narrative, entirely nonconstructive.

_________________"I believe ghosts are like dogs and they just sort of do things arbitrarily."

Xlxlx, I'm very proud of you for standing up to the cisgender patriarchy and embracing who you really are. No matter what others may say always remember: you are beautiful and you are a goddamn empanada.

"Political correctness" is a precise term in Maoist jargon referring to historical revisionism that supplants the historical role of the Chinese peasantry (as opposed to the traditional Marxist urban working class) at the center of the historical dialectic in Maoism. Conservatives have taken it and stretched it to mean everything and nothing at once every time someone slightly left-of-center calls them out for being assholes.

I find it hard say that Catholics aren't Christians. Catholicism is the original Christianity, so if anything the other sects of Christianity aren't Christian. But Orthodox Christians are as different from Protestants as Catholics are. And within each there are different groups such as the Westboro Baptist Church. When it comes down to it every single Christian believes in something different and so do all theistic people on this planet. Everyone believes in their own God, because they find out which God will give them the best chance to going to Heaven. Its all a big joke and I'm surprised there are still as many religious people as there are. Even with all of the scientific advancements we have made, people still choose to believe in their imaginary friend up in the sky. Its almost insulting actually, as if scientists spend all of their time for nothing.

Well that had nothing to do with the topic....

On-Topic: All other sects of Christianity are just as bad as the other.

There are major leaders from each group who attempt to pass laws against homosexuals and atheists and anyone else who doesn't agree with them. They are trying to teach creationism in schools. Guys like Pat Robertson and Ken Ham aren't Catholic. The pilgrims weren't Catholic, nor were the majority of people who came to the United States in the 17th and 18th centuries. They still treated the Native Americans terribly.

I think Christians who have been mostly opposed to heavy metal, or rock n' roll for that matter since its inception can be found mostly in the great US of A!Which, turns out, has a greater number of Protestants than Catholics.

_________________Thrash Was Born In Bloody Stourbridge!

marktheviktor wrote:

I think the guys in Metallica suffer from a condition known as Metal Sclerosis: the cognitive disability to play metal anymore.

Muslims are not 'anti-Christian'. They regard Christians as well as Jews as 'People of the Book', and exempt members of both groups from mandatory taxes that heathens have to pay under Sharia.

Not true. The jizya is applied to the "people of the book."

Einzige wrote:

And even the die-hard Islamists are tolerant of Christianity.

No they're not.

Einzige wrote:

Again, Muslims are not anti-Christian.

Some Muslims may not be anti-Christian, but the Islamic religion most certainly is. Just because it holds Christ to be a prophet doesn't mean it's tolerant of those who worship him as a messiah. That's heresy.

Seriously, people: the "Oh, Islam is 100% nice and dandy and it's just a few icky terrorists spoiling their image!" schtick is getting old. Islamic scriptures are just as full of hate, intolerance and general evil as the Bible.

_________________

gomorro wrote:

Fortunately the seminar started and when it finished, I runed away like if Usain Bolt were about to rape me.

Not all metal does that to women. That is a broad and sweeping claim.Islam however does so in a much more literal sense than any other institution you could name. Calling women "whores" and "bitches" is really not quite the same as forcing them into plural marriage, making them dress a certain way regardless of whether they like it and stoning them to death for a few unseemly acts.

Muslims are not 'anti-Christian'. They regard Christians as well as Jews as 'People of the Book', and exempt members of both groups from mandatory taxes that heathens have to pay under Sharia. Their problems with Christians and Jews are geo-political in nature; religious concerns are wholly secondary to them.

Not all metal does that to women. That is a broad and sweeping claim.Islam however does so in a much more literal sense than any other institution you could name. Calling women "whores" and "bitches" is really not quite the same as forcing them into plural marriage, making them dress a certain way regardless of whether they like it and stoning them to death for a few unseemly acts.

It is a broad and sweeping claim. Yet, if we decide to talk about Islam (or Christianity, Conservatism... etc) as monolithic entities, we must do the same with metal.

On topic, I completely agree with your post about Christians playing the political correctness persecution card all the time. What is more mind blowing to me is that sensible people actually believe them sometimes!

They all do it, lets not single out any one group They had (have) good reason here as everyone else was free to wear/express themselves as they liked, whilst anyone wearing a crucifix in the workplace was often told take it off or your dismissed. Good many might say, fine but it must apply to all or that is persecution.

I read people's posts on fairness and tolerance for all - and are proud to talk of their politically "enlightened" ideals, yet in the next "breath" they feel quite happy to show disdain for certain groups

It's the same old story; All animals are equal. But some animals are more equal than others. Fairness for all means ALL, yo'all.

_________________D - Fens

Last edited by mindshadow on Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Not all metal does that to women. That is a broad and sweeping claim.Islam however does so in a much more literal sense than any other institution you could name. Calling women "whores" and "bitches" is really not quite the same as forcing them into plural marriage, making them dress a certain way regardless of whether they like it and stoning them to death for a few unseemly acts.

It is a broad and sweeping claim. Yet, if we decide to talk about Islam (or Christianity, Conservatism... etc) as monolithic entities, we must do the same with metal.

The difference is that metal doesn't have any core scriptures. You can't judge all Muslims as one, but you can judge the central texts around which their faith is meant to be built. You can't do that for metal or conservatism, as they lack anything analogous to scriptures.

You can do it with Christianity, though, yes.

_________________

gomorro wrote:

Fortunately the seminar started and when it finished, I runed away like if Usain Bolt were about to rape me.

Absolutely. But the subject wasn't the Quran but Islam.Fact of the matter is, as you very well know (I hope), that Islam (or Christianity, or... you get the point) isn't monolithic. Sweeping generalizations swings both ways.

Absolutely. But the subject wasn't the Quran but Islam.Fact of the matter is, as you very well know (I hope), that Islam (or Christianity, or... you get the point) isn't monolithic. Sweeping generalizations swings both ways.

Not disputing that. But not synonymous. The Bible does not equal Christianity. The Qu'ran does not equal Islam.

But it feels like we're drifting a bit from the point here. If we generalize, there's no problem talking about any of the world-religions as monolithic, and ignore (sometimes major) differences. But we can do that with a lot of things. And if we generalize about metal, it's pretty stupid to deny that it is generally depicting women as inferior.

Actually it does. And Catholics are not only Christian....they invented it as we know it. The early Catholic church also decided, through a process of picking and choosing what would benefit them, the actual content of the Bible as we know it.

Seriously, people: the "Oh, Islam is 100% nice and dandy and it's just a few icky terrorists spoiling their image!" schtick is getting old. Islamic scriptures are just as full of hate, intolerance and general evil as the Bible.

Thank you, Beast, for being reasonable.

On topic, I would say metalheads in general don't have to fear any real sort of religious persecution in Western society. We've become pretty secular, even here in the USA... the last bastion of Christian fundamentalism, haha. We'll see what the future holds for the West and the rise of Islam's effect on society.... Maybe some of you on the other side of the pond could share your thoughts and perceptions on the issue, since Muslim immigration seems to be a more pressing issue in Europe than here in America.

Not disputing that. But not synonymous. The Bible does not equal Christianity. The Qu'ran does not equal Islam.

But it feels like we're drifting a bit from the point here. If we generalize, there's no problem talking about any of the world-religions as monolithic, and ignore (sometimes major) differences. But we can do that with a lot of things. And if we generalize about metal, it's pretty stupid to deny that it is generally depicting women as inferior.

I disagree on both accounts, as the Bible and the Qu'ran are both major foundations of the two religions, and there is no large problem of depicting women as inferior in metal. Hell, in a recent thread on the subject, one poster discussing women in a negative light was completely outflanked by everyone else in the thread, and outside this little microcosm, I've just not seen it, not to the point where it's some large-scale problem.

First of all, let me make this very clear: I am in no way defending the religions discussed here. What I'm trying to point out here is that a religion and its practise is more than its core text. You'll see a LOT of practises and dogma that is not in the bible/quran. For example; communion is not proclamated in the bible. Thinking that all there is to Christianity/Islam is to be found in the respective "holy book" is plain stupid. And trust me, in the case of Islam; the religion looks VERY different in Somalia from what it does in Western China. So if you want to generalize about a world religion, you'll have to take it that it's ok to generalize about metal.

And BaloroftheEvilEye, yes it was very refreshing to see peoples' reaction in that thread, but metal is soooo much bigger than these forums. If you read 100 song lyrics concerning/touching the subject "women", across the board, how many depicts women in a respectful light?

I have followed this thread for a few days now. And I think this post will disrupt the flow of this page but in response to the title, I have never felt prosecuted as a metalhead by any religion. At least not on the basis of my musical tastes, anyways. I think it is fair to say that metal bands in general enjoy shocking such institutions like religion. But my spiritual beliefs, and/or lack thereof, have never been challenged by any religion or its practitioners. Not on that basis. I have no experiences of my devotion for metal inciting a religious debate. It is usually my involuntary, indifferent expression that triggers an argument when someone approaches me with the intention of discussing their faith. I DO think Christianity has an unfair amount of fire directed at it (and do not mistake that for sympathy), but only because I think that it is disproportionate to every other religious institution out there.

I'm pretty much with Matras on the issue, except I gave up participating on this thread because it has basically turned into a distorted debate where facts are being evacuated so that some posters here can comfort themselves in whatever close-minded opinion they already had to begin with.

I think iAmDisturbed was right when he said early that the original post wasn't very inspiring. I'm not sure there was even a debate to begin with but if there was one, I'm not really sure what it is.

_________________

mjollnir wrote:

Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pmPosts: 6928Location: The Land Down Under (no, not THAT one)

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:47 pm

To be honest though, discussions about metal and religion always seem to degenerate into barely coherent, pointless babbling. This particular debate started in a sufficiently interesting way, but then turned into..... Well, whatever it is now.

_________________

Earthcubed wrote:

Xlxlx, I'm very proud of you for standing up to the cisgender patriarchy and embracing who you really are. No matter what others may say always remember: you are beautiful and you are a goddamn empanada.

I think religion and metal just have that perfect storm of a relationship. Metal thrives off of it. Metal musicians challenge religion, and I enjoy that. I strive to keep a fair perspective on everything, but I enjoy how metal strives to be a relevant antithesis to institutions such as religion. It is very alluring.

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pmPosts: 6928Location: The Land Down Under (no, not THAT one)

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:03 pm

Well, organized religion represents lots of things which are widely hated by people who are into metal, so it's just natural for both to have an antagonistic relationship.

_________________

Earthcubed wrote:

Xlxlx, I'm very proud of you for standing up to the cisgender patriarchy and embracing who you really are. No matter what others may say always remember: you are beautiful and you are a goddamn empanada.

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pmPosts: 6928Location: The Land Down Under (no, not THAT one)

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:22 pm

kingnuuuur wrote:

iAmDisturbed wrote:

When Xlxlx posts first in your thread, thank your lucky stars. You might get some good discussion going given that your original post isn't very inspiring.

He's kind of like the board's answering machine, auto-replying with the board's consensus on everything.

Since when?

_________________

Earthcubed wrote:

Xlxlx, I'm very proud of you for standing up to the cisgender patriarchy and embracing who you really are. No matter what others may say always remember: you are beautiful and you are a goddamn empanada.

First of all, let me make this very clear: I am in no way defending the religions discussed here. What I'm trying to point out here is that a religion and its practise is more than its core text. You'll see a LOT of practises and dogma that is not in the bible/quran. For example; communion is not proclamated in the bible. Thinking that all there is to Christianity/Islam is to be found in the respective "holy book" is plain stupid. And trust me, in the case of Islam; the religion looks VERY different in Somalia from what it does in Western China. So if you want to generalize about a world religion, you'll have to take it that it's ok to generalize about metal.

And BaloroftheEvilEye, yes it was very refreshing to see peoples' reaction in that thread, but metal is soooo much bigger than these forums. If you read 100 song lyrics concerning/touching the subject "women", across the board, how many depicts women in a respectful light?

Then consider how many artists are getting exposure by "fighting against the evil Christian oppressor". A fictional oppressor that, conveniently, never fights back. The reality is, a lot of metalheads and musicians like to pretend it's badass and edgy to go against Christianity but they do it because they know fully well there are no repercussions. And there are no repercussions because Christianity rarely fights back anymore, excluding a few regional exceptions such as the Bible Belt. Really, what a lot of artists are doing these days is equivalent to kicking a small kid while he's down while pretending you're fighting a guy twice your size.

Well, comparing the wealthy catholicism to a small kid - in a world where money is everything - is quite a stretch.

In some part of France (Alsace and Moselle), there is still no separation between state and religion. It means that Catholicism is still the state religion, and religious teachings are mandatory at school.Also Catholicism uses a lot of non-profit association and religious schools to reap the UE / state funds.

To me, the Roman Catholic church is more like a guy twice your size who does not give a damn about mosquito bites.

_________________

godsonsafari wrote:

Not everyone who wishes to express their opinion deserves to be listened to.

Let me make it easy by bolding the text. Perhaps it makes it easier for reading comprehension purposes:

matras wrote:

And BaloroftheEvilEye, yes it was very refreshing to see peoples' reaction in that thread, but metal is soooo much bigger than these forums. If you read 100 song lyrics concerning/touching the subject "women", across the board, how many depicts women in a respectful light?

And as a preemptive comment: depicting them as helpless in need of saving from the big bad dragon does not count as respectful.

Damsel in distress, women are helpless without men...etc...etc. It's not intrinsically bad, it's just so prevalent. Even if it weren't subtly disrespectful toward women, it would still be terribly cliche and trite.

Damn, this got me thinking: Whatever happened to Onerodeoverasabay?

_________________

John_Sunlight wrote:

Also to the guy who won't check out something amateurish: how are you into metal??

She's still here, dunno what you mean. And exactly how prevalent is it in metal? Practically nonexistent outside of power metal, and that's part of the charm of power metal anyway, cliched fantasy lyrics. And that's even assuming that it, hilariously, disrespects women. There's also the fact that in real life, men are just generally physically stronger than women anyway, so it's not like it's some incredibly unrealistic role in stories. But who cares if it is prevalent? It's not a remotely harmful cliche, and I realise from the video game thread you have some deep-seated privileged male-guilt or something or you've just bought into the deep end of feminist theory, but seriously, the damsel in distress cliche is not remotely damaging, and it's becoming less prevalent anyway. And here's the thing. I like like strong women in media. Always have, and I'm glad it's becoming more common thanks to Joss Whedon's work on Buffy, but I also like strong male heroes as well, something that has become a bit of an endangered species, though Driver has had one of the best protagonists in years. And if we're assuming stereotypes are harmful, I notice that you've never mentioned how male leads in a lot of American shows are generally bumbling fools (with the women of course, shown to be the ever-suffering bastions of intelligence), or sometimes appearing to be outright retards. Now this is a cliche I also enjoy, but I can't help but note that it somehow never gets brought up by people complaining about "harmful" stereotypes in media, especially since, under your own logic, widely portraying men as inept, braindead simpletons would surely be just as bad portraying women being rescued by men.

She's been very active recently compared to a while ago, you can always check her profile anyway, it's right up there in the "moderators" thingy when you check a forum. Also, funny that you thought of her during this discussion...

Care to enlighten me as to what that means? Because I haven't got a clue. Sorry.

And I'm talking about metal lyrics, not American TV shows (don't try to change the subject).And yes, the "damsel in distress" is denigrating. And yes; it is mostly in power metal, but as you can scroll up and read again: I said across the board. In other genres of metal? How is it there BaloroftheEvilEye?

Giving birth is one of, if not, the most amazing thing. Women should be venerated and their equal place in society assured. Men are in general physically stronger to naturally defend a woman (care/tend), especially when she is in a weakened condition around the time of childbirth.Women should stay at home to raise their children as only they can impart a certain love that is crucial to a harmonious society, beneficial to all. This should not be seen as a servient role, but a crucial one. I believe many problems in the west stem from families having no choice but to leave the care of their most precious possession to, often, complete strangers.

Shouldn't religion always champion the unified family unit, where both are equal, though serve different roles, neither being above the other? Its been an unjustice that one sex has in the main for far too long lorded over the other, demonstrating a weakness of character.

To quote Rush;

Philosophers and ploughmen Each must know his part To sow a new mentality Closer to the heart