Andrew Bogut vs. DeAndre Jordan (and some others): If things get physical, should it automatically be a double-tech?

Andrew Bogut doesn’t mind getting physical, and he especially doesn’t mind it when his physical defense gets his opponent frustrated and maybe even mad.

That’s what happened last night–in a typically emotional, chippy Warriors-Clippers match-up–when the Clippers’ DeAndre Jordan got the ball down low, took a hard foul from Bogut, then angrily shoved Bogut after the play was whistled dead.

Bogut shoved Jordan back even harder… and the two were eventually separated and given a double-technical.

Now Bogut’s agent, David Bauman, is formally protesting Bogut’s technical, with the understandable logic that Bogut doesn’t deserve a tech when he’s only responding to his opponent’s extra-curricular activity… after Bogut’s tough defense has already drawn a foul.

Bauman is asking for NBA exec Rod Thorn to rescind Bogut’s technical foul. And while I’m not sure how likely that is, I think there’s a bigger-picture point here from Bogut’s camp and for the Warriors:

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* They want to make sure the league understands the recurring action of less-than-silky-smooth big men hammering with Bogut on the post and then reacting in an extra way when he is just as or even more physical.
Examples would include Jordan and a few other centers, probably including JaVale McGee and DeMarcus Cousins.

Then if there’s a push and a push-back in response, Bogut gets a technical, too. And knowing Bogut, of course he will always respond. He will mix it up, he will do some of his own barking and he will commit a lot of hard fouls.

That’s who he is and why he’s valuable to the Warriors, and Bogut will get technicals he 100% deserves, too.

But in this case, you can see the point: Bogut is naturally physical, which means the opponent centers without classic post skills will get frustrated and then extra-frustrated if he commits a hard foul, and when they do something about it by shoving him–and getting a tech–he is not there to just take the punishment.

Basically, Bogut’s camp looking for a clear differentiation between physical fouls on the post and the after-the-whistle response by Jordan and others… and his response after he gets pushed.

Bogut might not win this argument; you push somebody after the whistle, whether you’re initiating or responding, you get techs, most of the time, especially if you’re 7-feet tall.

But I think Bogut’s camp just wants to identify the pattern, and note that it’s often the same centers having the same frustrations with Bogut, and that it’s not happening with more skilled guys like Marc Gasol or Dwight Howard.

They want the NBA to understand these things.

Oh and by the way: Bogut’s next match-up with Cousins and Sacramento is tomorrow.

The double-tech is a terrible system because it in no way solves the cause of the problem: the instigator. Double-techs bring no net punishment to the instigator, so there is no deterrent AT ALL for guys like Jordan or McGee to stop pushing Bogut after the whistle. Until those guys see that there are real consequences in-game they will keep on pushing and shoving after the whistle because as long as Bogut shoves back there’s no harm to their team. I doubt Bogut will get his tech rescinded, but hopefully this will get the league to at least realize they’re not actually addressing the problem in these situations.

Douglas Ader

An additional question: If Bogut doesn’t push back, would DeAndre Jordan have been given a single technical (or a foul at all)? If not, there is the crux of the problem.

If DeAndre will be given a technical, then Bogut has a decision whether to make a statement (sometimes it could be worth it) and get a technical also or step away and let the other guy get the penalty.

But if the refs are going to let the other big man get away with the initial frustration push, then Bogut really has no alternative than to shove back or else its always going to happen to him. I’m not sure this is the point of Bogut’s agent, but its definitely a point he should make.

Mike DunleaveMeHangin

Dwight Howard may be a lot of things … but a ‘skilled’ offensive maestro is not one of them. And not that I’m his therapist or anything, but he does also seem to have just the kind of mental makeup that lends itself to allowing Bogut to get under his skin.

ds207

Agree that the double tech does not really solve much, but it is great to see that Bogut is not going to take any crap from anybody under the basket, such a refreshing sight than watching Andris Biedrins get shoved under the basket and then getting dunked over.

Commish

Of course he should get a technical. He already accomplished his goal of getting under his opponent’s skin. Why give up that advantage?

That Man

So Bogut is saying that if you retaliate you shouldn’t get a technical? That would set a great example for the rest of the league. No chance

HiRez

You HAVE to respond to that, unless you are Andris Biedrins. Can’t just let guys push you around like that, not during the game and certainly not after the play is dead.

HiRez

I’ll tell you what would solve the problem: immediately eject any player that instigates it with an “unnecessary roughness” type of foul. Then if you still want to give a technical foul to the retaliator, fine, but at least then you aren’t rewarding the instigator by calling it even.

Then again, it probably doesn’t matter much and probably works OK as-is. In the end, Jordan shot 2 free throws, which is what would have happened anyway without the incident.

And Jordan and Bogut are 2 starters, where it could be problematic is where you have a team bringing in some bench scrub to pick fights with the other team’s starter, trying to get them fouls or tossed out of the game. Then it’s uneven and unfair because there is no negative consequence to the instigating team.

HiRez

I agree, I love the toughness. Teams aren’t used to getting any resistance from picking on the Warriors. And if that had escalated into a full fight I guarantee you Jordan would have come out on the short and of it and been the one crying for mommy.

SurfCity

The NBA already has an “unnecessary roughness type of foul”: it’s called a flagrant foul.

Bogut was not being an “instigator.” He committed a foul — a typical foul — and was called for it.

It it were flagrant, he would have been called for that. It wasn’t.

To somehow think that Jordan has the right to retaliate, and to equate normal, hard fouls with “instigating” is way off base.

flaninerfan

Way too many whistles this game. Broke the flow of the game. A well officiated game is one where you do not notice the officials.

HiRez

I think you misunderstand me. I’m saying Jordan is the instigator, not Bogut. All Bogut did was commit a foul (at least to start). I’ve never seen anyone get a flagrant foul after the play is dead, it’s always a technical.

SurfCity

You’re right, I did misunderstand. After I typed my response I wondered if it were the other way around.

So I guess what you meant was that Jordan should get some kind of unnecessary roughness foul for the initial retaliation?

The way it is now, Jordan would get a technical for the retaliation. In this case he did but so did Bogut.

Bigmouth

Tangential note: I’m beginning to wonder if Bogut’s “freak” injuries aren’t so freak. He gets pulled and dragged into a lot of awkward positions by his scrappy play. Every time his arm gets tangled up with someone like Jordan’s, I get nervous lol.

playdefense

The double-T isn’t meant to penalize the instigator by default. It’s meant to stop two players who are arguing from escalating into a full-blown fight. And in that regard, it does work to settle down the players actually.

Yes, it’s the instigator’s fault in a lot of respects. But I don’t agree that Bogut has to shove back either. Certainly he should defend himself and not back down. But he can do that by barking at the guy and raising his hands up. That gets the instigator in more trouble and gets us a free throw instead of off-setting fouls.

Bogut wins one battle by getting in the head of his opponent, forcing the foul. But to push back, forces the clear double-T situation. He should just shake his head and smile at the guy. Even get in his face. But not physically retaliate. Then he wins a second battle. We get another free point OR the guy pushes again and gets double-T’ed out.