who have completed their amazing lifts under the strictest of judging only to have some of their records beaten now by lax judging and triple-ply suits/shirts. It was not so long ago when a 700 LB bench and a 1000 LB squat were a rarrity in our sport. You cannot tell me these lifters today are that much stronger than the lifters of the "old" days who had to compete under strict judging and limited gear. Any arguments from those who compete in geared federations? I don't want to hear the "powerlifting wasn't going anywhere and gear made it more 'mainstream' argument...wtf

the gear is here, deal with it, and quit bitching "wah wah wah gear sucks they're cheaters". everyone's fucking strong, the record breakers now are extremely powerful as were the record breakers then. can you even hold 1010 over your face? do you think you could bench it even with a superduper thousand ply titanium shirt?

could your spine support 1220 pounds? could you squat it even with denim briefs and a canvas suit?

gahd you guys are as bad as croatch nonstop pissing and moaning about steroid users. hey remember when ed coan got booted from the IPF because he failed a drug test? yeah there's an exemplar of playing fair.

the gear is here, deal with it, and quit bitching "wah wah wah gear sucks they're cheaters". everyone's fucking strong, the record breakers now are extremely powerful as were the record breakers then. can you even hold 1010 over your face? do you think you could bench it even with a superduper thousand ply titanium shirt?

could your spine support 1220 pounds? could you squat it even with denim briefs and a canvas suit?

gahd you guys are as bad as croatch nonstop pissing and moaning about steroid users. hey remember when ed coan got booted from the IPF because he failed a drug test? yeah there's an exemplar of playing fair.

Yeah, I remember that. It happened about the time I was first really getting interested in powerlifting. I know Eds x-girlfriend from when I was in college. Depending on who you believe, he took all kinds of things.......

And with all honesty, I don't give a shit. He's still Ed Coan. He's still one of the greatest (maybe the greatest depending on how you look at things) powerlifters of all time and will always be. Why have these stupid arguments and keep draggin up shit? It accomplishes nothing. Ed Coan, Captian Kirk are Ed Coan and Captian Kirk, they aren't Mendleson and they aren't Jeff Lewis. Quit beating a dead horse about it. Please......

Well Kirk did come back and do a raw meet at 242lbs a couple of years back.I think he went 825,475,775.Im pro gear,but sorry,these guys today DO NOT compare with Eddy and Furnas.Sorry.Furnas could have squatted 1025 back then if he was pushed to.His 989[or thereabouts]was the easiest heavy lift Ive ever seen.No one will EVER compare to Eddy Coan.A 903 deadlift at 220 pretty much says it all.

Well Kirk did come back and do a raw meet at 242lbs a couple of years back.I think he went 825,475,775.Im pro gear,but sorry,these guys today DO NOT compare with Eddy and Furnas.Sorry.Furnas could have squatted 1025 back then if he was pushed to.His 989[or thereabouts]was the easiest heavy lift Ive ever seen.No one will EVER compare to Eddy Coan.A 903 deadlift at 220 pretty much says it all.

Will be great to see what you can put up at the USPF.

How's training going Billy?

What numbers are you putting up?

And what I really is interested in: What changes, if any, have you made to the training due to fed switching?

the gear is here, deal with it, and quit bitching "wah wah wah gear sucks they're cheaters". everyone's fucking strong, the record breakers now are extremely powerful as were the record breakers then. can you even hold 1010 over your face? do you think you could bench it even with a superduper thousand ply titanium shirt?

could your spine support 1220 pounds? could you squat it even with denim briefs and a canvas suit?

gahd you guys are as bad as croatch nonstop pissing and moaning about steroid users. hey remember when ed coan got booted from the IPF because he failed a drug test? yeah there's an exemplar of playing fair.

Wow! I didn't mean to get your panties in a bunch! I wasn't attacking you Magoo....I am only saying that these guys today do not compare with Coan, Furnas, Karwoski, etc. Have you ever seen a guy struggle with 365 and put on a shirt and do 700 in a meet? I have? Is that powerlifting? Let me make one thing clear...when gear technique, takes the place of true RAW POWER, we don't have POWERlifting. Get it? Yes Vogelpohl, Gene, Mendy etc. are strong and I respect the hell out there dedication to the sport, THEY ARE STRONG without the gear as well.... Its not that guys are getting tremendous poundage out of the gear that I have a problem with. I have a problem with guys never getting strong first! Look at Furnas, Kaz, Arcidi, Joey Morreli etc... these guys looked and were strong because of their training style...OLD SCHOOL. I am tired of the fat asses with beanies, a few lame tats and a gut that makes putting on their "super-duper thousand ply titanium shirt" next to impossible without their 6 other fat friends, THINKING they can stand with Coan, Karwoski, and Furnas. Yes, this is an old argument....but it's the biggest argument in the sport...so deal with it or just move on if it upsets you too much.

no eli, YOU move on. the gear is here, it ain't going anywhere. and if you're talking about cheating, i'd say getting popped for drug usage is even worse cheating because that was AGAINST the rules, not a part of the controversial rule set.

could they compare? i sure as shit think they do. i absolutely 100% believe that today's top lifters would still be the top lifters had they trained raw. no matter how you look at it, scot mendelson and glen chabot are stronger than bill kazmaier on the bench. john bernor and chad aichs are incredibly strong squatters (aichs has done GOOD MORNINGS with 955). bolton has pulled 800x8 raw.

while the lifts don't compare, and obviously the lifters aren't as evenly strong as guys back then, it's stupid as hell to suggest that the record breakers now are no stronger than the breakers from eras past. they just use the available equipment. gear or no gear people would be stronger now than they were 20 years ago, the gear simply confuses things.

Hedgehog,right now Im going to do the NPC NEW ENGLANDS this weekend and I have another show next weekend then I will start my powertraining.Although I have been walking weights out with no problem.Im going to scrap the westside training and go back to what I did before going APF.Im going to follow all of Ed Coans stuff,except do more assistance work.It will basically be a powerbodybuilding routine but the main three lifts will be cycled up.Im going to do the first ten weeks in ZERO gear then start the pre meet prep at 10 weeks out and slowly add gear in.My ultimate goal is to get MUCH MUCH bigger and more muscular to compete at the NPC MENS NATIONAL masters the following year.

no eli, YOU move on. the gear is here, it ain't going anywhere. and if you're talking about cheating, i'd say getting popped for drug usage is even worse cheating because that was AGAINST the rules, not a part of the controversial rule set.

could they compare? i sure as shit think they do. i absolutely 100% believe that today's top lifters would still be the top lifters had they trained raw. no matter how you look at it, scot mendelson and glen chabot are stronger than bill kazmaier on the bench. john bernor and chad aichs are incredibly strong squatters (aichs has done GOOD MORNINGS with 955). bolton has pulled 800x8 raw.

while the lifts don't compare, and obviously the lifters aren't as evenly strong as guys back then, it's stupid as hell to suggest that the record breakers now are no stronger than the breakers from eras past. they just use the available equipment. gear or no gear people would be stronger now than they were 20 years ago, the gear simply confuses things.

You know, I've read your posts here and FI. I think you are pretty intelligent. I will also say that I compete equipped and I get insane carryover from an F-6 (almost 250 pounds) I think what this guy is saying actually has a lot of merit. Think about it.

no eli, YOU move on. the gear is here, it ain't going anywhere. and if you're talking about cheating, i'd say getting popped for drug usage is even worse cheating because that was AGAINST the rules, not a part of the controversial rule set.

could they compare? i sure as shit think they do. i absolutely 100% believe that today's top lifters would still be the top lifters had they trained raw. no matter how you look at it, scot mendelson and glen chabot are stronger than bill kazmaier on the bench. john bernor and chad aichs are incredibly strong squatters (aichs has done GOOD MORNINGS with 955). bolton has pulled 800x8 raw.

while the lifts don't compare, and obviously the lifters aren't as evenly strong as guys back then, it's stupid as hell to suggest that the record breakers now are no stronger than the breakers from eras past. they just use the available equipment. gear or no gear people would be stronger now than they were 20 years ago, the gear simply confuses things.

Chabot or Mendy stronger than Kaz raw?

No offence, but Kazmaier's 661 benchpress was no touch and go. It was a legit stop, ass to the bench, soles to the floor, with a press signal.

So that 661 lbs holds its own quite well compared to any touch and go-freestyle lift by Mendelson.

Too bad Kaz tore his pec at a young age, 26-27 or so. Think of the weights he could've pushed otherwise...

In 1983 at the IPF Championships Kaz squatted 848 pounds. He benched 501 pounds (with a sever pec injury) and deadlifted 799 pounds. This gave a total of 2149. Talk about RAW Power. Even after his injury he was able dominate the field. Kaz has claimed that he would have benched over 700 if not for his injury.

No offence, but Kazmaier's 661 benchpress was no touch and go. It was a legit stop, ass to the bench, soles to the floor, with a press signal.

So that 661 lbs holds its own quite well compared to any touch and go-freestyle lift by Mendelson.

Too bad Kaz tore his pec at a young age, 26-27 or so. Think of the weights he could've pushed otherwise...

-Hedge

mendy absolutely. despite being an absolute shit lift he manhandled the 714 and could almost certainly hit 750 in the gym. mendy has done above 661 with a total pause as well. glen chabot, james henderson, nick winters, brian siders. the list goes on. siders has also out-totaled kaz raw by topping 2300 at the NERBs. jeremy hoornstra hit 603 in the 242s.

i understand that kaz is a legend. in my mind, the best strength athlete of all time, bar none. but he's not the strongest forever, no one can be. i often wonder if people just have their heroes and make excuses for how their records get broken (i noticed the dumb "flat feet" part as though kennelly and others don't also bench flat footed). the lift holds its own, but it's not the most ever.

Technology improves everything? Horses to cars is a necessary transition. Washing machines make life easier. I don't think bench shirts, squat suites etc. are a horrible invention either.... If you look at my first post you will see that's not the argument. I don't like geared lifters feeling like they are standing on the same level as the the record breakers from RAW competitions (old or new) If you dig lifting with gear that's great. I just don't want to see guys totalling 2000+ in gear thinking they are right up with there with the greats of yesterday or today who competed RAW. Not every sport must evolve. Olympic weightlifting has not changed much for a hundred years or so.

Lets look at Barry Bonds. Is he at an advantage because of his AAS use? Yes. Hank Aaron's record is amazing and always will be. Barry Bonds is also amazing but his record will most likely be tarnished because of AAS. What if Barry Bonds was the all time homerun record holder but used aluminum bats? His record would most definitely include an *. Aluminum bats are an evolution in baseball...yet banned from the Major League's. Why?

Geared guys get real sensitive when you walk this line.....yes the guys of today are strong (no doubt) but, WTF ever happened to just you and the iron? Isn't there something satisfying about setting yourself on the bench, digging in, gripping the shit out of the bar and lowering it to your chest, pausing and pressing it back up....knowing that it was all you, no carryover? No barriers, no geared training, just you and the iron. I guess some of us just don't want to "evolve".

I personally dont lift with any of that but who cares? The guys I compete against use suits (and juice), but it will just make it that much sweeter when I beat them! Let them think what they will. You know better and so do they. When one of the truly strong come and wreck them without any help they will crawl back into bed and cry themselves to sleep!

Though I do think that at some point its not a bad idea to take precautions, especially in PLing. A large part of why the ironmen of the past stood out so much was because everyone else was injuring themselves just trying to catch up. Its still that way today. I was attempting to enter a contest in Nebraska but it was filled up and all of a sudden 8 spots opened up, 4 weeks out, due to unjury! Lifting gear now gives the less than intelligent lifter a better chance to get into competition, haha! The people who REALLY need the stuff will never be at the top.