The Grand Theft Auto series has been criticized, more than once, for its treatment of women. This is a franchise where you used to be able to use hookers for a health boost, and then kill them to get your money back, after all. And Grand Theft Auto V has gotten lambasted for this treatment. But is that valid?

First of all, the answer to the question is “Yes, to some degree.” But it’s important to sort what’s received wisdom in the video game industry versus what Rockstar was trying to achieve, artistically.

Consider the overall artistic bent of the Grand Theft Auto series. All of the games since Vice City, and Grand Theft Auto V in particular, are concerned with shining a light on some of America’s worst tendencies. And, let’s be frank here, one of those worst tendencies is misogyny.

For example, the character of Mary-Ann, who anchors some of the game’s side missions, is a biting and painful satire of body image issues and self-esteem. She’s torturing herself and beating herself up for not winning, and it’s telling that she relentlessly calls herself a “fat loser” and angrily insists she doesn’t care that she’s thirty-six and unmarried. By the end of her quest chain, you feel genuinely sorry for her; the overall perspective is of a woman broken by society who doesn’t even realize it.

You find this reflected all throughout the game. Listen closely to the ads on the radio and you’ll hear plugs for a stripper night school trying to prey on the insecurities of housewives, and an ad aimed at women insisting that if you’re tired of thinking independently, you should get a lobotomy. They even compare it to liposuction.

I somehow doubt Rockstar thinks women should lobotomize themselves, call me nuts. And sadly, a video game acknowledging misogyny even exists in the first place is uncommon enough it should be singled out for praise.

That said, the women in the game are NPCs, and relatively minor ones, at that. You can seduce strippers, which is an at best questionable choice for a game and so utterly unnecessary to gameplay you wonder why it’s even an option.

If GTA Online will allow us to play as female characters, why not have female characters in the story mode? And they’re not nice people, at all, either; the only female character who comes off as remotely likable is Franklin’s girlfriend Tenisha, who takes one look at where his life is going and, smartly, walks right out the door. She has a couple of scenes. That’s… not a good track record.

It is fair to point out that in the Grand Theft Auto franchise, everyone’s a monster; selfish, self-involved, venal, and dangerous. That said, though, the question is really one of focus. There’s no particular reason that Michael’s wife Amanda couldn’t have been the bank robber, or that Michael’s daughter Tracey is constantly in skimpy clothing and is heavily implied to have gone into porn for the attention. Satire doesn’t go far enough to cover lazy writing and thinking, and it’s also fair to argue that the women in Grand Theft Auto V are lazily written and thought out, especially as they slip to the periphery; they’re not people, but types.

In short, there is misogyny in Grand Theft Auto V, but it’s a mix of the intentional and the unintentional. One suspects that GTA Online is a feeler for having a female protagonist in the next game; one hopes that Rockstar takes a moment to ensure all its characters are well written.

Outside of the fact that there could/should have been a main female character, I don’t think any of it is unintentional. The “weak” side characters are all obviously satirical, and the thing is, the main characters are not remotely likeable people. The male characters in the game are all skewered by the same types of satirical barbs. It’s a game series about the decaying American dream, and it’s treatment of women is merely a reflection of how it really is. I would much rather have played an interesting female character rather than Michael or Franklin though.

Another element could be that men are far more likely to be involved in violent crime than women. This could play into whether or not a character feels right for the story being told. Whether it is nature or nurture, who knows, but these are reasons why GTA may not have playable female characters.

I get that, I meant more that when writing a story there may be many different avenues you want to explore but as things progress certain characters and themes may have to be abandoned because they aren’t “right” for the story. Not to say that a female character can’t be written well into GTA as a main character but, for the writers, they may have had a vision and a female lead may not have fit that. But eh, what do I know.

Wow – really…its a video game. I am so tired of people trying to make sense and apply PC practices to a game. It’s a ridiculous game (fun as hell) that is so far removed from reality I just don’t see how you can criticize the mannerism and personalities of Computer generated characters. What I am saying is – when i drive down the street and run over multiple people and the police finally catch me – I always just have to pay a fine and I am released immediately. Its not real morons quit please stop trying to make it as such. Its an escape and entertainment, also…..”DOOOOOONNNNNNTTTTTT CARRRRRREEE!”

You don’t. But lots of women do. There’s a lot of female gamers out there and they want to play the same games as us, but feel represented when they do. How would you feel if every game you played only had female characters?

This is a pretty weak argument, “you can’t criticize something because it isn’t real.” So is racist crap like Birth of a Nation above criticism because it’s a fictional film? You don’t have to completely understand why some people would find misogyny in video games offensive, but a knee jerk reaction like this to valid criticism is totally unwarranted. If you really got the ol’ cutler in you then why don’t you just let people be offended and continue on your merry way instead of calling for people to be silenced for expressing their legitimate opinions.

The Saints Row series took the ridiculous, fun as hell, so far removed from reality crown from GTA some time ago. GTA has gone out of its way to mean something with each successive entry, starting with Vice City but really kicking into overdrive with GTA IV, which toned down a lot of the ridiculousness in order to spend more time on things like atmosphere, storytelling, characters, etc. Like or not, that’s the direction Rockstar has deliberately gone. Since they clearly want their game to be treated as a mature creative work, why can’t we have mature critical conversations about it?

No they’re actually totally comparable. They’re both works of art meant to critique and analyze the societies in which they were made. GTA uses satire and gameplay to do so while Birth of a Nation uses drama and cinematic storytelling. They’re both fictional, they both feature characters, and they both contain story arcs. They both comment on contemporaneous political, social, and economic issues that the creators face. If you can criticize and analyze one, then you can also do the same to other. It’s that simple.

That’s a strawman argument and not related to the topic at hand. Do you agree that since a work of fiction (Birth of a Nation in this case) can be criticized for its portrayal of its contemporary society then another fictional work (GTA) can have the same critical idea applied to it; under a different context?

No I am saying that something like Birth of a Nation or Animal farm or even World war Z as it turns out, share very similar analogies or societal criticism, but you cannot necessarily compare the portrayal of communism and the use of black face actors kkk heroes and other “shenanigans” simply because they are criticisms. I think it needs to be more specific than that. Yeah if you wanna be vague and bunch all critiques together then of course you can compare everything, but lord that would consume time.

Yeah but no one is trying to do that here, once again, you’re arguing against a point that no one is making. My argument is that Birth of a Nation is a racist film because it was produced during a racist time and you can read the history of that time into that film. This informs us about the role that media can play in exhibiting and perpetuating harmful stereotypes. The same can be done with GTAV, there is obvious misogyny within our society, some of it major and some of it fairly minor, and you CAN read the misogyny of our time into works of fiction. That’s the analogy that I’m making here, not that racism and sexism are the same but that they’re both pervasive elements within our society that often leak into our fiction. Just because something is fictional doesn’t mean that it can’t have implications in our real world. Just saying that “oh it’s just fiction stop overreacting” is a flawed argument, as proven by decades of media critique. Or, more specifically, the example of racism in Birth of a Nation.

I agree society is far from perfect and I never said that works of fiction are just that, I am saying that GTA as a game has not chosen to discriminate against women, treat them with no respect simply because thats how the creators of the game view the world. I don’t think thats what you are saying either, but highlighting misogyny in a game were murder, drug abuse and crime in general is rampant is wrong and kind of self-depricating. Either you say that the random acts of violence that a gamer can commit in the game is wrong, stealing a car, even running past someone and pushing them aside, or crashing a jet into a house for instance or you accept it as simply a game in that sense. There are misogynistic aspects of the game, no one is denying that, but unlike Birth of a Nation, its not indictment of the times nor is it intentional, no one is actively trying to put them down in the game and the sub conscious argument doesn’t come into play here, because as I said violence is equal through out the game. Please don’t use the you can’t just say that because everyone is subjected to it it becomes fair. Frankly in the game it does.

for fuck’s sake.
in the last week I’ve heard that GTAV is misogynist/sexist, racist, the obviously “too violent” and even that animal rights activists are banning it over the treatment of animals in the game.

the main point we have to take from all of this is that GTAV is a piece of media, just like anything else – novels, movies, music, comic books, etc. the fact that it’s interactive changes nothing, because just about any type of media is interactive to some extent – even if it means using your own imagination. VIDEO GAMES ARE BASICALLY MOVIES. We didn’t tear town Goodfellas because of their treatment of the mob wives and/or girlfriends, did we? what about Halle Berry’s character in Monster’s Ball?

end of argument: GTAV, just like any other good video game, is telling a STORY just like a movie would, and any violence/misogyny/etc takes place within the context OF THAT STORY. it’s not fucking real life, just like a Tarantino or a Scorcese movie isn’t real life. 99% of people can tell the difference, and if we’re accusing one of them, we’re accusing every piece of media out there. period.

Ummmmm, people have criticized Goodfellas for what they see as misogyny. A quick google search brings up multiple articles and discussions about it. There’s an entire genre of film critique dedicated to exploring issues of gender in film. If media is interactive as you say, which I agree with, then it’s also interacted upon by our society. In the same way that you can take something away from media, artists put their views and experiences into their work. That means that any piece of media is reflective of a person within our society. If people find GTAV misogynistic then that would imply that we still have some serious gender problems in our world and that warrants exploration and criticism.

I’m not commenting on whether or not GTAV is misogynistic or not. I haven’t played it so I’m not saying that you’re wrong about the game, but your attitude towards discourse certainly is.

My attitude towards discourse is certainly, what… wrong? Um, no. I love discourse and debate when actual intelligent discussion is brought to the table. My attitude towards idiocy is what you see above.
People out there are disturbed enough to find anything you could possibly think of insulting, offensive, and wrong. Anything. There are people that found The Jetsons and The Flintstones to be misogynist (they are fucking cartoons). The problem is when people have the inability to disassociate between FICTION/STORY and REALITY.
just because some moron out there comes to the decision that he/she believes GTAV is morally wrong, doesn’t mean that automatically makes it true and we all have to sit down around a campfire and have a serious discussion about it. there are people out there who, for years, were convinced that violent video games begat real violence in real life. we know THAT’S bullshit.

this kind of stuff infuriates me. find me the guy that watched “I Spit On Your Grave” and then immediately went out and raped someone, thinking it was okay because he saw it on the big ‘ol TV.

How is finding misogyny in a game that, according to Dan and others, doesn’t feature a single female character with agency idiotic? No one here has said that GTAV makes you go out and rape women so I don’t know where that came from. I agree so I’ll just skip that detour.

As for your example of the Flinstones and The Jetsons, they ARE misogynistic. You know why? Because they were made during a time where mainstream American society was extremely misogynistic. As I said, media often tells you more about where it comes from than its actual subject. These cartoons came out during a time when women were relegated to second class citizenship. Anyone who attempted to break this mold was ostracized and shamed, thereby perpetuating a system where women were good housewives and nothing else. The female characters of these shows exhibit these traits and, therefore, the show is misogynistic as well.

THAT’S the issue here. Not that GTAV is going to make rapists, but that by excluding strong female characters and only including ones that exist to be playthings for the gamer that you’re confirming that a culture of misogyny exists within our mainstream culture (GTAV is definitely a mainstream hit). Any analysis isn’t to shit on GTAV or make it out as the greatest threat to women but to understand exactly how misogyny can influence our society and how we can check and correct that influence. You can’t fix something until you recognize it as broken. Any attempt to label that sort of pursuit as “idiocy” or “bullshit” IS anti-discourse and seriously ignorant. I understand your reaction but it sounds to me like you’re angry at people like Jack Thompson which is far from what’s being said here.

Eric clearly your idea of misogyny is anything that doesn’t feature a woman as perfect, in control and dominant. It sounds like you would support the feminists who determine what a woman can do and can’t, can wear and can’t. I don’t even know where to begin with your last paragraph, specifically the beginning. It is a violent video game where virtually no one is given respect, but all you care about is the fact that you can’t play as a woman and that women aren’t treated with respect, which I can’t comment on as I haven’t played the most recent game, but if its anything like IV then there should be some good female figures. The bull shit that so many gamers and people are becoming frustrated with is that if a game doesn’t fit the artistic bill of these feminist groups then it is some how bad or evil or socially backward.

No you misunderstand me. My idea of misogyny is an artistic work is based on the idea that there isn’t a SINGLE female character with any agency. There are two genders in our world and women make up more than half of our population. How is it that throughout the entirety of a game heralded for its depth and realism, that there isn’t a single female character that can claim that?

We get to see the growth and inner workings of three male characters but every female character is relegated to being a stereotype and a point of mocking. Obviously the male characters don’t come out perfect but at least they get a fair shake. They have motivations, humanity, and are allowed agency to fulfill these things within the plot. They’re human characters. They’re shitty humans but humans nonetheless.

That’s what I would like to see in these games. She doesn’t have to fit society’s mold of a perfect chaste woman, in fact I’d love it if they included a Trevor-esque, amoral lady in a GTA game, that would be fun as hell. Those are the characters that interest me in these types of games so I don’t know why you assume that I’m all about repressing female agency. Especially considering that’s what I’ve mentioned time and again is the MOST important part of my complaint. That a female character get the same treatment as the protagonists in GTAV and that they have human desires and motivations and get the power within the plot to pursue these things. They don’t have to come out as paragons of societal norms and they don’t have to be excluded from the same violence and debauchery that the male characters get into. In fact, they should be able to do everything that the other GTA protagonists have been able to do. I’d just like to see an actually human character that is a female, that’s all.

I’m also not saying that the game is bad. Just because you criticize something doesn’t mean you hate it. I love the GTA games for their gameplay and they tell pretty decent stories within their sandbox world. When you play a game don’t you find things that you wish were done differently that would make the game more fulfilling for you? That’s all I’m talking about here.

Flattest Eric I can’t comment on this game, as stated before I haven’t played it. However I really am not onboard with the 50% of the population argument. So? There is not quota that needs to be filled to say that at least 50% of leading characters need to be female, especially since we are seeing a very significant shift in this direction. The last of us for instance, a game which cracked had the gaul to call sexist, but it seems very few people putting forward these arguments have any idea what the game is like. Hypocritical in this instance yes, but my point remains the same, just because a lead female roll in a game isn’t present or even a role model worthy female role, it does not make it misogynistic. Some hot topic wasn’t touched on in a game, doesn’t mean its irrelevant.

Yeah I agree, the Last of Us mention on cracked was ridiculous. I’m not for that at all. That was some overly touchy crap and a very clear overreaction. THAT is an example of a feminist individual forcing a round block in a square hole. Also, is that the idiom you were looking for in your comment below? I actually like your version a lot, it’s got some great imagery.

Once again, though, you misunderstand me. I’m not asking for a female role model because the men in GTA aren’t role models either. I wouldn’t expect something different from a female character than I would from a male one. I also don’t want a mandate that 50% of games must feature female protagonists. What I AM saying, though, is that how can an entire GTA game not feature a single female character with agency? GTA has been moving more and more towards creating a world that is realistic and true to our own, with the gameplay and satirical elements tacked on. The male protagonists in this game have full-fledged stories while the female characters are just stereotypes. They have one character trait and that defines their entire existence. They’re a disinterested housewife, a slutty hollywood-type with daddy issues, an exercise freak. These are all presented as negative states and are not allowed any sort of want or need beyond what their one stereotypical trait demands. The male characters, on the other hand, have multiple traits and have human wants and needs that lie beneath their obvious self. We are allowed to understand them and why they do what they do. They’re not role models but they’re created to be sympathetic. The fact that not a single female character is allowed this, despite GTA clearly attempting to realistically portray and lampoon our half male-half female world, shows that the game just doesn’t care or holds its female characters with contempt. Instead of putting you in a world where men and women are humans just trying to get by, it creates a place where a few men are the only ones who matter and all women are meant to be acted upon because they’re just detestable plastic creatures. You either hate them or pity them, and that reduces them to objects that are less than human. That’s objectification of women and is the definitin of misogyny.

The Last of Us is actually a great example of what I’m looking for. The Last of Us has a male protagonist as well but also has many female characters that have agency. I don’t want to spoil anything for those who haven’t played but Marlene is a character with agency. She has goals and desires that conflict with the male character. You understand why she wants to do what she wants to do and you have to sympathize with her. She isn’t the most likable, and she doesn’t have to be. She is Marlene, a person with a goal, and she has agency within the plot to chase that goal.

Ellie is another great female character with agency. Joel and her rely on each other and she’s allowed her own set of wants and abilities that are unique and apart from Joel’s. I’m assuming you played it, but did you feel that Ellie sort of knew what happened at the end and would’ve sided with Marlene had she been given the choice? Joel kind of comes across as really selfish and kind of shitty in that instance. Yet Ellie loves him anyway because that’s what humans do, we’re multifaceted and contradictory. THAT’S what I want in a GTA game. They don’t have to be the absolute main character, they just have to have real goals and motivations that are just as valid as those that the male characters get in GTAV. To deny all of your female characters that sort of humanity IS misogynistic storytelling and I don’t enjoy it.

Haha yeah it was thanks. I get your point of view and am also glad you read the cracked article. The last of us has it, and maybe more games should, although I do think in the last 5 (10 maybe) years there have been loads of strong female figures. Why does every game need to have it? What you and others are looking for isn’t necessarily what you will get or what you should get and thats my entire point, don’t call a game misogynistic because it doesn’t have one of the attributes you are looking for.

I agree that there’s been a lot of progress on this front, and that’s exactly why I feel that it’s what we should be getting. There’s games that already feature the kind of characters that I’m talking about and they’re usually really great. The Last of Us is so strong precisely because they actually made humans out of all their characters. The strong female characters in The Last of Us combine with the strong male protagonist to create a better and more believable narrative.

If a game is going to have women characters that are central to the plot then they shouldn’t just be static characters who exist solely to fit a certain mold. Misogyny is objectification of women, and if all of the women in your game are just there to fulfill a stereotype, then that’s misogynistic. All of the women in the game are all illogical, emotional and slutty. Meanwhile, Michael is sociopathic murderer who also wants to be a good father and husband. You sympathize with him because he’s portrayed as a human, rather than a stereotype. The female characters aren’t human, they’re essentially creatures who operate on one directive and are there to either hate or pity. That’s objectifying them. They look like a slut so they are a slut. Michael looks like a regular guy but he’s also got layers. He’s a caring husband and father but also a psychotic criminal. There’s no reason that the female characters can’t have more layers than just the superficial stereotype that’s been applied to them. That’s what’s misogynistic. It’s that the makers of GTA just keep trotting out the same stereotypical ladies but their male characters keep getting deeper.

Misogyny is also a loaded term. Like, if you’re a misogynist then you HATE WOMEN and are part of RAPE CULTURE. That’s ridiculous and an oversimplification. It’s like racism; there’s racism where you deny people rights and there’s racism where white kids think all black culture is the cool because it’s black. There’s misogyny that leads people to rape and there’s misogyny that leads people to simply think a woman is a slut because of her clothing choices. They’re both bad, but they’re not the same level of bad. GTA’s misogyny is not rape culture, but it’s certainly misogyny.

the biggest one can be derived from this quote: “How is finding misogyny in a game that, according to Dan and others, doesn’t feature a single female character with agency idiotic?”

essentially, this is what we get when people are desperately trying to find flaws to have “discourse” about within a game that does not contain said flaws. you’re reaching, brother – and you’re reaching REALLY far.
okay, so the game doesn’t contain one major character that is female. ::size 72 lettering:: SO WHAT??!!!!
did you fail to read my first comments when I said that the game is A PIECE OF FICTION? a fictional storyline in which we are being told a story, much like a MOVIE? you know what, there weren’t a whole lot of black people in two of the best television shows of all time: The Sopranos and Breaking Bad. holy shit… does that mean The Sopranos and Breaking Bad were RACIST? ohmygod guys I think I stumbled upon something… The Sopranos and Breaking Bad were written by white supremacists who were totally super-duper racist and were trying to subconsciously convert all of us into black-hating racists.
waitaminute now that I think about it… neither of those shows had GAY PEOPLE in them too!!! OR JEWS! they were anti-semitic and homophobic shows as well!

The Flattest Eric: take a few steps back, stop what you’re doing, and breathe. stop overreaching and trying to find flaws where there are none. GTAV tells the story of 3 men who are CRIMINALS, men who use(d) violence, brains, and in some cases (Trevor) just a pinch of insanity for monetary gain by breaking the law and hurting people. can we all agree that that’s the story we are being told, yeah? correct? alright now let’s keep moving down this Path Of Common Sense that Flattest Eric obviously has trouble navigating.

alright so since we’re being told this story about 3 violent criminals, do I really have to show you the statistics on how many more MEN there are out there committing violent crimes, than women? the gap becomes even wider when you work in which crimes were committed for monetary gain. the simple *FACT* is that 99% of the time it is usually MEN how commit these crimes. MEN. get it now? are the clouds being lifted for you? so you’re saying the developers of GTAV should work a woman into the storyline (y’know, the one about the 3 VIOLENT CRIMINALS) in order to make it look like they’re not so “misogynistic” and in order to satisfy those who lack common sense out there? come on, man. it didn’t work within the STORYLINE is why they didn’t put a woman in there as a main character. not because they are misogynistic. Same reason why there weren’t any gay people in “Goodfellas”, same reason why there weren’t any blacks in “Trainspotting”, same reason why there weren’t any MEN in the movie “The Women.” because they were all trying to tell us a story, and casting revolved around that story. this type of idiocy infuriates me.. and I’m sure all of the developers of GTAV hear dumb shit like this, and are all sitting around their offices getting infuriated as well because it’s just so non-sensical and dumb.

FYI – the developers of these games aren’t violent, racist, misogynistic, anti-semitic or whatever else you can think of, by any means. They are simply storytellers… the problem with them is that the stories they tell are usually attached to one of the most successful video game franchises in history, so it reaches multiple millions of people who all dissect it and rip it apart in any which way they can. these are the guys who established an entire expansion for their last game around a homosexual character (The Ballad Of Gay Tony) and THAT had a lot of criticism behind it… and also a lot of applause, since it was the first time any game had ever really done that. and yet a few years later, they still have people up their ass, claiming that they are pro-this and anti-that. jesus christ. if you have no common sense either play the game and enjoy it, or don’t, and shut the hell up.

I could probably deal with the misogyny in the game if it weren’t so lazy. GTA V has to be one of the most lazily written games I have ever played. The humor is like an AI programmed to write bad episodes of early South Park. It’s inexcusable.

But yes, its misogynistic. And Dan does a great job of showing why. Its not the fact they are insulting women that makes it hateful. Its that women in the game, both as characters and as plot points, have zero agency and are little more than archaic archetypes.

and not only that, but you can’t compare apples to oranges. you can’t look at “The Last Of Us” and say, “now THAT’S good writing in a game.” that’s a linear, non-sandbox, non-open world game.
GTAV is amazingly written for being the type of game that it is. it’s extremely hard for a sandbox game to still reel you in, character-wise and development-wise. GTAV excels at this.

Yes, what profoundly will crafted and original characters like: the cheating plastic surgery addicted wife, the faux spiritual white yoga master, the actress sleeping her way into roles, the new age post menopausal woman, the fat virgin game, the slimy film producer, the alpha male businessman, the whiny pushover sidekick, the controlling girlfriend, the dishonest Jew. What an incredible cast of compelling characters.

these games have always been lazy and immature in their treatment of women, minorities, etc. and yes most of it is satire, but sadly your average teenage boy/idiot gamer playing GTA does not understand satire and takes this shit at face value.

@ayatollah, honestly? That is sexist. Teenage boys are not budding rapist/murderers or even idiots, lurking in the shadows waiting for a game to come a long and catalyse their criminal career. Take that bullshit out of here.

This game is meant to be a playground/sandbox for expressing extreme masculine behavior.
Our society expects men to restrain their behavior all the time nowadays. So, I think games like this are a good thing, because they help males blow off some of their socially restrained male energy.

I think it’s fair to say that GTA is problematic. I mean, when was the last time where there was a female character of note in the series who could even hold their own? Beyond Asuka and Catalina in III (and San Andreas in the latter’s case), I’m struggling to think of anyone. There are some decent characters (Kate McReary, and I’m actually leaning towards enjoying Amanda and Tracey the further I get into V), but they’re usually pretty passive.

If a woman had been included as a playable character in this game, and fit the “less than likeable” mold of the three protagonists (although I loved the three characters), we’d be getting a series of articles about how Rockstar gave people a poor and downright insulting representation of a woman with few if any redeeming qualities. The people who garner insult at the lack and general nature of female representation in games are looking for a very specific sort of character to be used. Any creative liberty taken with a playable female character, which with a male character wouldn’t raise any ire, especially in the vein of making them faulted and broken in some way wouldn’t pass muster with the sexual equality in gaming movement.

Since you haven’t played the game, I won’t spoil anything. But play it, and get introduced to Trevor for the first time. Then reverse the sexes in play during that scene using some imagination. Then come back and tell me that putting a female character in that situation wouldn’t swing the pendulum the other way insofar as criticism in relation to the stated desires of the gaming community that favors a more inclusive role for women. In the current climate of that particular debate, GTA V was *not* the game to offer up a female protagonist. Especially in light of the fact that women have so far been underrepresented across the board. At least that’s what I hear. I still contend that any good game with a female lead will sell more copies to males than females, which is really the whole point. Men make up the customer base when it comes to selling games and it’s not because women aren’t represented as playable characters on the screen. In my unscientific poll of ex-girlfriends, two of which had college degrees, and two of which were working on their masters, none of them ever said my playing of video games was stupid because I the character I had assumed control of wasn’t female. It was just because I was playing video games. For whatever reason, women haven’t gravitated to that form of entertainment in numbers large enough to shift the fiscal thinking of developers. There’s one group that says that’s because women are underrepresented in the medium. Ok, then why is the NFL so popular with women, gaining more female viewership for the Super Bowl than the Grammys, when there’s not a single woman to be found on the field or the sidelines? My response in most things regarding women. “Who the fuck knows?”

Ha, well that’s a pretty solid breakdown of the subject, but I’m not convinced that a flawed female player character would really be received that badly. A female Trevor might be a bridge too far, but that level of psychopathy (judging from what I’ve seen) is interesting enough that I think it could work in a female. Flawed player characters of the male variety are rare enough themselves, and female ones may very well be nonexistent, but I think the flawed characters usually tend to be appreciated more than the unimpeachably ethical ones, and I don’t really believe that a female one would be all that frowned-upon by the “equality crowd.” At least, not unless her central flaw had something to do with sexuality.

I’m not lamenting the omission of a female protagonist, myself, and I pretty much always hate the “This story doesn’t contain any * characters and that’s a bad thing” argument. I also share your belief that the scarcity of female protagonists isn’t necessarily much of a factor in why women don’t game as much as men (although I believe I have seen evidence that that’s shifting too, albeit perhaps not as fast as NFL viewership). I’m just saying that a I don’t think a flawed, even heavily-flawed, female protagonist would necessarily be all that frowned-upon by the “equality crowd,” just so long as the story didn’t have too much to do with her sexuality, and her agency wasn’t compromised unreasonably.

the thing is, this argument is often just the same puzzle piece jack hammered into different puzzle pieces?? (completely blanked on how that saying goes lol. Every time a game like this comes up the same thing happens over and over. A vocal group of people do not like that A, B and C are present in video games and until that is changed they will never be content. Boobies in video games? censored. Violence towards one woman, but millions of men killed? censored. Call a woman a bitch or cunt? censored. Its getting a bit ridiculous. Saying games like this just reenforce misogyny is just really pissing me off, its becoming hard to have a civil conversation when its the same strokes over and over.

I’ve been watching someone else play the game (I’m more into adventure gameplay like Skyrim). The shrieky female characters of GTA V are an abomination. Yeah, the male characters aren’t good people either, but fuck, at least they’re not all obsessed with their looks. The female characters feel like caricatures of what some frat house guys think women are like. It’s a little disturbing. I would’ve loved some crazy badass chick to be a main character. Can you imagine the hillbilly as some big boned Large Marge going on a rampage? But look, the story was written by three white guys for a target audience of males, what the hell can you really expect?

The lack of female representation (positive or negative as in badass/amoral) in main roles does really take its toll on how women perceive themselves within our society. Pretending like that’s not a fucking problem IS a problem. And I don’t always want to play as a female character, but damn, it’d be nice to have the option more than once in a blue moon.

I think overall when it comes to entertainment, that’s entirely true. It’s not something exclusive to gaming, which is trying to overcome a 100 year head start by film, and an 80 year head start by television, and has made far more progress in its short existence than either one.

I was just talking about this on reddit the other day. I think the only way you can have a female protagonist in GTA is if she’s just as sexist towards men as GTA men are to women, and if you’re not able to dress her up in bikinis and other sexy clothes. She can’t sleep around like the men in the series, or she’s still the one being objectified by the player.

See I think you totally could do that. She’s not being objectified if she has a character beyond the sex. It’s only objectification if she’s just there to have sex, be oogled, and that’s it. Under the assumption that they write her well, she could be doing anything and as long as she has motivations, desires, and a personality behind her then it’s not objectification.

And as for the sexism towards men I think that would be a great chance for satire. We only see satire through the eyes of the male characters and that’s why the female characters are the way they are. I’d like to think that the GTA crew could bring that humor to bear on the opposite side of things. It would be a refreshing take on the GTA world and I believe would really better the series.

All things considered, the controversy train for GTA has been really muted this cycle and it’s been a blessing. Of course, it being 2013 THE YEAR OF ALL THINGS WOMEN AND RAPE, misogyny has been the chief complaint but even that hasn’t gained much traction.

“If GTA Online will allow us to play as female characters, why not have female characters in the story mode?”

They shouldn’t have to have one just to fill a quota. If we go down that road then the game should need a playable character for every race, sexual orientation, and gender just so every conceivable person playing the game feels represented. If they felt like they wanted to tell a male driven story, regardless of the fact that all the games are male driven stories, then I don’t think they should be lambasted for that.

Exactly the artist has authority over his story line, in games where it is largely irrelevant that the protagonist is male or female its much easier. But in games where the creator has chosen a male role it is, he is trying to portray his image in the best way possible and just because that vehicle has a penis instead of a vagina doesn’t make it misogynistic . That is why the option is available online, because they don’t want to exclude people.
Also I’m not sure I agree with the why is seducing strippers even an in-game option specifically in gta, there are many other games were you can seduce the other sex, some people like it. Not necessarily misogynistic

lmao interpretation and plot are two different things. Being a condescending prick doesn’t really help your argument either. Also your death of an author link was something I study in my first year of uni, but clearly you are the expert on all things feminism and every theory you believe in is the answer to every sociological debate ever. I digress, isn’t really an argument against me. It works both way, just as the author can’t really control how his work is interpreted, if you honestly believe that, then a reader’s/audience’s interpretation is just that and not fact. So to say that GTA is sexist simply because you think it is, nah brah. Don’t come in with that weak stuff either to say that I haven’t understood the theory like you have done many times before. You seem to hide behind theories of greater men and women, simply taking them as granted and regurgitating them to fit every possible example with out fully understanding the medium or intended design, in this case, of the game. It’s very frustrating arguing with people like you Axissillian, because you place games in black and white forms. No evidently powerful female lead seems to place many things on your black list and thats just unfair.

I blame Kotaku for this. Ever since they shifted format from actually talking about video games to stirring controversy in favor of page hits, you get more “is Video game, X, Y?” articles (Y stands for Racist, Misogynist, Anti-Semitic, ect.), complete with weak supporting arguments, and blatant ignoring of context, created specifically to generate comment response and page hits.

I remember an article of theirs decrying Bioshock Infinite for being secretly racist, whereas anyone who has played the game knows that the racism present is used to flesh out the narrative, and not a central message of the game.

Is this even seriously up for debate? Of course GTA is sexist and racist as fuck…as are most games Rockstar makes. You can take the attitude that you don’t care and you can make brain dead anti-pc arguments but you sure as fuck don’t understand what misogynistic means if you think otherwise.

Wether or not racism and sexism is included in the game is different to being sexist and racist in itself. Clearly some people don’t understand that and it makes the art of story telling incredibly difficult. Thanks for proving why people like you will always be offended. You social warrior you.

I don’t really think its misogyny to not have a female PC, just that Rockstar doesn’t think a female protagonist would work with the story they want to tell. But I do enjoy playing female characters in games when developers give us the chance, even as a guy, and I’m actually kind of expecting Rockstar to make a female protagonist in the either the next game or in any dlc they produce for V.

I agree connorwilson67. The closest I’ve seen to straight up misogyny in GTA V is how Franklin’s Aunt and her faux-feminist friends are represented as annoying men hating fanatics. Not having a female PC isn’t misogyny.