Great Clip! Great verbal repore! I bounced for years soild but quite this year just because dealing w/ppl like these get on your nerves. You're basically a babysitting drunks all night..it gets tiring weekend after weekend. The first 2 levels of force I was taught was #1. Verbal repore and #2. Verbal warning. His verbal repore is so cool and calm, I LOVE his verbal warning.. threating to call his brother. Great clip.

In the words of Dalton from Roadhouse- "If somebody gets in your face and calls you a cocksucker, I want you to be nice. Ask him to walk. Be nice. If he won't walk, walk him. But be nice. If you can't walk him, one of the others will help you, and you'll both be nice. I want you to remember that it's a job. It's nothing personal."

I was training with Lloyd de Jongis in Piper again this evening and he was relating some of his body guarding experiences. His ability to imitate the misdirects of South African criminal behavior is quite remarkable. To know just how good some people are at this seems a vital awareness.

Easy for me to talk here from my desk, but I dunno. Right hand down. Freeze frame at 00:04 shows him very off-balance in response to an attack that was obviously coming. A better attack from a less inebriated problem might have created some real problems.

Testing a new pichost... kill 2 birds with 1 stone, make a gif while I'm testing this new pichost.

Thank you supatony for upping the vidclip to Youtube and our own Jonobos for posting here.

~sg

« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 12:50:57 PM by Stickgrappler »

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"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny

Almost none of us perform to our best when the adrenaline gets going, so I make allowances for that. Second, the fact that the doorman did not get killed or sent to the hospital and neither did the other fellow means that it is not a horrible response.

Limiting myself to the doorman: Weight shifts WAY back into the heels as he edges back and the man closes in. His right hip is cocked and his knee is almost locked. I wonder if he either has or is trying to pretend as if he has a pistol. I do not see one from the clip.

When he avoids the punch, he wastes a tick bringing his left foot back in front while punching with his right hand. While some people can hit hard from there, the way he's doing it is turning his hip away from the direction he's trying to project power. And when he starts on the shove, knee, push sequence, he wastes time again having to get his left knee loaded by reversing his feet yet again. And then after it is back in yelling stage, after he's already been attacked, he still faces the attacker with both of his hands down almost like he was Richard Gere in Officer And A Gentleman at the bar. Oh, and while he is using his right to fight, his other hand keeps a death grip on that loose white shirt the man is wearing. Notice that the doorman's punch seems to have more of a damaging effect than the knee. The knee moves the man backwards but does not appear to do any actual damage.

Still, he does manage to avoid the punch, he gets control of the attacker's outside line and drives towards center. I'd give it a c+ The biggest thing that bugs me is that after the scrap, he's still facing the man and keeping both of his hands way down.

Actually SG's pichost clip makes it easier for me to see more and now that I do I better see why Jonobos posted this clip and hereby upgrade my opinion of the performance involved.

The weight on the heels and right hand dow as Problem Child approaches remain as serious defects, but there are some things I do like:

Using StillJames's comments as a frame of reference:

"When he avoids the punch, he wastes a tick bringing his left foot back in front while punching with his right hand. While some people can hit hard from there, the way he's doing it is turning his hip away from the direction he's trying to project power."

Security Guy awaits in a left lead and takes a step back as PC approaches. If he had kept his left hip and shoulder forward we could have said he was in a Kali Fence I have no problem with his stepping in with the left foot as he throws the right hand-- indeed it is a primary option while throwing the right from the KF.

"And when he starts on the shove, knee, push sequence, he wastes time again having to get his left knee loaded by reversing his feet yet again. , , , Oh, and while he is using his right to fight, his other hand keeps a death grip on that loose white shirt the man is wearing. Notice that the doorman's punch seems to have more of a damaging effect than the knee. The knee moves the man backwards but does not appear to do any actual damage."

I see this differently. I see the left hand's hold as doing a fine job of keeping PC turned and the footwork as driving nicely on what we call the T-Bone line. Note PC's line of approach and that the angle SG's drive puts PC into the car. I see the knee simply as a smoothly integrated part of this drive.

Putting aside the weight on heels and the right hand down (which invites the intiation by the left hook) I'd give this a B or even a B+.

Not dissing the Security Guy, but I've read/heard that Doormen/Bouncers say if their soft skills have not deescalated the situation and that they have to resort to hard skills then they didn't perform their duties well. Or maybe it was something Dalton/Patrick Swayze said in Road House lol

"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny

I definitely do not disagree with your analysis, Guru Crafty. I also apologize for my lack of clarity of intent and content. I was not trying to bash Security Guy. I was looking at it like I would one of my students. What I meant by grading C+ is: Security Guy, You solidly pass but work on X, Y and Z. If I was grading it on SC vs White Shirt alone, I would have given it a B. But the response to Yellow Hat (at approx .06 and .07) with both hands down and both feet essentially flat lowers it a good bit for me. At This Moment, I have a strong bias against that for reasons I decline to post publicly.

Actually SG's pichost clip makes it easier for me to see more and now that I do I better see why Jonobos posted this clip and hereby upgrade my opinion of the performance involved.

The weight on the heels and right hand dow as Problem Child approaches remain as serious defects, but there are some things I do like:

Using StillJames's comments as a frame of reference:

"When he avoids the punch, he wastes a tick bringing his left foot back in front while punching with his right hand. While some people can hit hard from there, the way he's doing it is turning his hip away from the direction he's trying to project power."

Security Guy awaits in a left lead and takes a step back as PC approaches. If he had kept his left hip and shoulder forward we could have said he was in a Kali Fence I have no problem with his stepping in with the left foot as he throws the right hand-- indeed it is a primary option while throwing the right from the KF.

*This is one of my lack of clarity situations. My objection is not that he stepped. The reason I called it a wasted tick is that he did not do anything much with the step. If he'd gotten his hips to line up with it as Guru Crafty suggested, I would have not been bothered by it. Having watched the video a few dozen more times, I think that left foot might be him trying to get his balance back. Or perhaps starting to move and then realizing halfway through it that he is off balance.

"And when he starts on the shove, knee, push sequence, he wastes time again having to get his left knee loaded by reversing his feet yet again. , , , Oh, and while he is using his right to fight, his other hand keeps a death grip on that loose white shirt the man is wearing. Notice that the doorman's punch seems to have more of a damaging effect than the knee. The knee moves the man backwards but does not appear to do any actual damage."

I see this differently. I see the left hand's hold as doing a fine job of keeping PC turned and the footwork as driving nicely on what we call the T-Bone line. Note PC's line of approach and that the angle SG's drive puts PC into the car. I see the knee simply as a smoothly integrated part of this drive.

*I agree completely that the angle of the drive towards the car. I also agree with the objective of keeping White Shirt turned so that Security Guy can take the outside line and drive towards his center. (I apologize for not being up on proper DBMA terminology yet.) I was merely noticing from the sidelines that White Shirt's shirt was loose and already torn. In a fight, people take what they can get and it is not like SG had much time to work with. I would have suggested that SG start with the shirt and then transition to a more secure spot to maintain the grab, if practical. At the end of the day... He was there. I wasn't.

Putting aside the weight on heels and the right hand down (which invites the intiation by the left hook) I'd give this a B or even a B+.

SG, would you please post this on the DBMAA forum too?

I would also note that, in the clip, it looks like the primary Security Guy is trying to keep someone behind him from charging into things. Not the other security guard who is helping him but a third party. So he does have a lot of distractions and other considerations to deal with than just the scrap.

I suspect some of the issue might be a local laws thing. Hands up and ready to fight can make the bouncer look like the aggesssor, this guy did a good job of keeping things separated while getting the more aggressive party moving away/leaving. Body language plays a big part in defusing/escalating does it not? He definately needs to stay "up" instead of remaining flat footed tho'.

*laugh* I would agree on that. Mind, another helpful hint is to not let people creep into punching range on us-if we have a choice. As long as someone has to take at least one step to land a hit, it buys an extra fraction of a second to react.

Open hands, palms facing outward at shoulder level says "Hey, I don't want any problems here" while allowing one to be positioned to deal with any problems that might initiate from that point. There is a law enforcement concept of a "reactionary gap" you don't let anyone get inside.

This brings up the issue of verbalizations. Peyton Quinn influenced me here with his articulation of the concept "Prepare your witnesses". Peyton can be a very funny guy to have some beers with-- full of good stories, some of which made it into his book "A Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling".

Personally (and whatever one says IS personal, and should feel good and natural TO YOU) I am not a big fan of "I do not want any problems." While it certainly meets the criterion of establishing with witnesses that one was seeking to avoid the fight, IMHO it sounds a bit weak-- which tends to invite problems. I like:

Anyway, moving along with the subject of the verbalizations, one of the points that Peyton made was that most problems start with an "interview" wherein the true question was "Are you a victim?" Thus a good verbalization needs to answer this clearly in the negative AND put us in a good light with witnesses.

If we fail to verbalize, those in the vicinity may notice what is going on only AFTER the beginning of physicality. Should you win they may well testify that you were the aggressor. OTOH, good verbalizations draw their attention before things get going (which in and of itself tends to discourage many BGs from acting further) and establishes that you are the GG and that you sought to avoid the problem.

FYI, I edited my post with the realtime gif and added a gif that was slower.

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"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny

I prefer the hands up posture. The finger pointing method he used may get it broken or cut off and has a slower follow up than an open palm.The open palm is a Universal STOP mofo coupled with a verbal "STOP" The major draw back is the forearm vessels are exposed(watch for blade palming).

If he continues forward, I think bicep control could be a viable option...but it leaves him open to reach for his belt line.

A. A backhand chop to the neck at pressure point stomach9 may give you a ko, at the least time. The follow up move to that would be the Gene Lebel spin him and rear naked choke(I'm sure BooDog is familiar with this). I would opt to chop using my right, which makes the spin counter clockwise. The spin this way gives me immediate control of his right arm, as you are checking it with the left as you chop, then spin him then finish with the rnc using the left as you step back getting him off his feet. You could also do the rnc with him elevated on your hip if you turned clockwise as a door man would to drag an unruly customer out. The left is sinking the choke, while the right is on his right controlling his access by going under his armpit and over his forearm. It would be wise to pay attention to his left where you are wide open for a knife.

B. Teep with the left and then immediately access with the right(or opposite). Creates space.

E. False lead with zoning - into the shiver and drive his face into the closest inanimate object. Checking his right arm as you drive. Follow up as needed - pudur kepala, neck crank, modified thai clinch, various judo throws, strait jacket.

F. similar to what the person in the video did, arm check/trap...but move into position for the "yank the chain" then drive his face into the hood

Open hands, palms facing outward at shoulder level says "Hey, I don't want any problems here" while allowing one to be positioned to deal with any problems that might initiate from that point. There is a law enforcement concept of a "reactionary gap" you don't let anyone get inside.

The 21 foot rule? not real practical, but a concept of some sort of gap is better than none. It gives one a "threat upgrade/ wake up" line if nothing else.

As far as open palm risks, you can mitigate them slightly by presenting the blade of the forearm and then turning the palm towards them. Unless you have really stiff wrists. It does not make the danger go away. It just gives a smaller target. One of my instructors (who does not work security) likes a modified thinker posture. The LEO traffic direction hand point can work.

With distance issues: If you are on a door, it can be hard to just back up. But you can probably take a slight angle. When picking your door position, make sure you give yourself room. this might mean standing a bit further from the door. The worst is when the crowd starts gathering and working each other up. I've yet to find a good solution that is not a one-off. But the general pattern is to stay calm and pick one person at a time and defusing them. "What Would Make You Happy, Sir?" This does not really work if they're already committed to fight.

A general guideline that I have found for confrontations, in general, is to not square up. Even if it is just a couple of inches, get a little off center but turn towards their center. And, if you have a partner, use them. From the clip, the security guy had a friend. When it was still at yelling phase, he could have taken a step towards the camera. If the aggressor wanted to maintain his own body to body relationship, he would have ended up turning away from the second doorman. So, if you have a security team, work this stuff out ahead of time.

Verbalizations are wonderful. I remember an instance where another vendor at a flea market got angry at me. He was obviously working his way up to a fight. What I said, very loudly, was: Sir, you are trying to pick a fight with me. He said: Yes..Yes, I want to fight! He ended up storming off without a physical attack. And for two hours, people would come up to me and talk about the guy who wanted to fight me.

Testing a new pichost... kill 2 birds with 1 stone, make a gif while I'm testing this new pichost.

Thank you supatony for upping the vidclip to Youtube and our own Jonobos for posting here.

~sg

[/quote]Woof, Just two things; one, notice the tell that the attacker gives before he punches, see the little hitch in his step, he's getting his distance to target set and the doorman counters this with his step back and two, notice that the doorman gets a nice stun slap in to the base of the guys skull that bends him over and makes his arms go limp for a second; that preempts a possible right cross the attacker was loaded for. I too would grade it a B+ response and I would give the attacker a B for a relatively sneaky sucker punch that not many people would have handled as well as this doorman did. P.C.

Open hands, palms facing outward at shoulder level says "Hey, I don't want any problems here" while allowing one to be positioned to deal with any problems that might initiate from that point. There is a law enforcement concept of a "reactionary gap" you don't let anyone get inside.

The 21 foot rule? not real practical, but a concept of some sort of gap is better than none. It gives one a "threat upgrade/ wake up" line if nothing else.

reactionary gapDefinition: The space and distance between an officer and a subjectContext: For law enforcement officers, the rule of thumb for creating a reactionary gap is tomaintain a distance of at least six feet from a subject.

This has become very educational for me. Thanks for the comments everyone, and thanks for the pichost clips!

Quote

notice the tell that the attacker gives before he punches

I admit that I had not even looked for that. Excellent!

Watching the clips again I have noticed that the counter attack lands in the same general area as the doormans hand was previously. Maybe just a coincidence in this clip, but still an interesting lesson in measuring distance. I am not sure I would go for the pointer finger approach though. It seems a little antagonistic.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 11:15:07 AM by Jonobos »

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When life gives you lemons make lemonadeWhen life gives you hemlock, do NOT make hemlockade!

as a side bar...Looking at the bad guys shirt and the presence of both bouncers out side something seems amiss. like he has been tossed from the bar and keeps trying to come back in. To be this far form the door seems a big mistake in my oppinion. I think this problem has been going on for awhile.

I think the bouncers reaction time is able to pick up the punch due to the fact that this isnt the begining of the fight.

Woof, Doorman #2 takes a quick peek over his left shoulder as the punch is thrown by the attacker in front; he probably didn't even see the punch as it was being thrown because he doesn't seem to react to it but instead only reacts when his buddy gets busy. He knew someone was back there and notice how he throws his arm back after he pushes the guy in front, like he is warding off anyone approaching from behind. P.C.

looking at the full clip, the guy in the black tank top is part of a group of 2-3 behind the bouncers. I figured they were a second party that I alluded to when I mentioned keeping them separated. He is too close, and I don't know if he was thinking of helping out if needed or an offended party that needed to back away- again. I always figured that this was a continuing situation given the torn clothing, the friends stepping in to "save" troubled drunk, and the people that are 10 or so feet back from where the GIF is framed up. The guy in the black tank top, may or may not be a "white hat" or associated with the tag along group.

That is one thing that has got to be most annoying, the "non-acting" party hanging around to spectate or see the bone head get some street justice.......... It does not defuse the situation any and could escalate it. Something to maybe remember, if the bouncer is bouncing the OTHER guy and has dismissed you- dissappear. Either back into the club or out the back door and away in the car, don't be in a place where people act stupid right?

One of the biggest brawls I have ever seen in a club was due to the chaos of a fight spreading out to the bystanders. It got every on duty police officer that could make it called in. IIRC, 17 people were arrested but the brawl was bigger than that. And the bigger it got, the more people came out of the woodwork to pile into it. Males and females, alike, were jumping in. A big, nasty mess. I'm glad I was not working the club. I was peripherally involved in the sense that I stood in one of the doorways to the dance floor and simply became a wall to keep people from continuing to pile in. That is one of the few things I miss about being 287 pounds-about the only thing.

It was definitely a big, nasty mess. And started over carelessness and confusion. Man A picks up the wrong beer mug by mistake. Man B tries to grab his beer back. They start yelling at each other. Man B takes a swing at Man A. Man A dodges. The punch hits Man C. Man C reacts by spinning around and throwing a punch at the nearest person, Man D. Man D sees 3 people throwing punches and starts tossing wild swings at everything in sight. Now, everyone's friends are diving in to help out their own buddy. Ugly mess that looked more like a rugby scrum with 4 separate teams fighting over the ball than anything else.

that was back in the era when I still liked to go out and get into trouble. But even then I had just enough sense to stay the heck out of the fur ball.

I don't know, Prentice. That looks more like follow through and recoil from shoving white shirt than a deliberate warding action. I could be wrong, of course.

I also agree with Tcrutcher that this has apparently been going on for a lot longer than on the clip. Problem Child's shirt is torn, yes. That is something I had noticed, as well.

Woof, I thought that at first too but there is something unnatural to the over extension of the arm and before that movement, his arms are hanging down and relaxed after the push but like you said who knows. P.C.

Nice work by the reporter following up and getting the details. In case the URL goes dead some day, here it is, minus the fotos and clips:

Special to MSNBC updated 8/16/2010 3:01:39 PM ET

BANGKOK — Lee Aldhouse of Britain and American Dashawn Longfellow both had a passion for Muay Thai, the Thai martial art of kickboxing. But it was in a bar, not a fighting ring, where their lives intersected — with a deadly result.

The fateful encounter between foreigners on the Thai southern resort island of Phuket left Longfellow dead and Aldhouse, who authorities say killed him, apparently on the run.

Both men came to Thailand to learn Muay Thai and both drifted away from training. Friends and associates say they got drawn into the culture of drinking and bars that is inherent in the tourist-filled island of Phuket.

Longfellow, the 23-year-old former U.S. marine who Aldhouse allegedly stabbed to death early Saturday morning, is a decorated war hero who had served with distinction in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

He told friends he was spending time in Phuket to rehabilitate from a shrapnel injury to his arm received in Afghanistan.

Aldhouse, 28, is from England and arrived in Phuket in 2006 to train at Rawai Muay Thai. He had a number of Muay Thai fights for the gym but was eventually asked to leave after allegedly assaulting his English girlfriend, according to the owner of the Rawai Muay Thai facility.

Longfellow arrived in Phuket earlier this year with the intention of spending a year training at Rawai Muay Thai. Just like Aldhouse he was asked to leave the gym although the circumstances were entirely amicable.

Diana Campillo, the owner of Rawai Muay Thai, remembers Longfellow specifically."Dashawn was actually here on a year visa. I remember writing the application letter for him on the understanding that he would train for a year but he came and met this girl and wanted to be with her and drink. He was staying at the camp but he was drinking almost every night and he wouldn’t really train," Campillo said.

"Eventually we had to say to him, ‘If you are not serious about training you should stay some place else, don’t stay at the camp.’ So we asked them to leave and Dashawn went and trained somewhere else,” she said.

Aldhouse’s departure from Rawai Muay Thai four years earlier had been much more acrimonious. Danny Avison was working for the camp at the time and made a video of Aldhouse fighting a much smaller Thai opponent, which can be seen at right.Avison said the Englishman, whose nickname was "the Pit Bull," was involved in a number of violent incidents.

“He came here with an English girl in 2006. He was massive ... and said he had been working as a bouncer in Spain. In his first fight for Rawai Muay Thai he knocked the guy down and then dived on him and tried to bite his ear off you can see it on YouTube. He assaulted the girl that he came with and our trainers were very angry about it and he had to leave the gym.”

Aldhouse fought in Phuket as recently as March 2009 defeating another Thai opponent and you can see the video here.

However, Aldhouse does not appear to have trained regularly or fought for over a year and there is some mystery as to how, with no obvious source of income, he was able to continue to afford to live in Thailand.

Aldhouse's first encounter with Longfellow occurred at the Freedom Bar, where the Marine's former girlfriend worked.

Longfellow told friends that he had seen enough violence in Iraq and Afghanistan and supposedly attempted to diffuse the situation when Aldhouse challenged him shouting, ‘You may be big but I am crazy,' witnesses said. Aldhouse allegedly punched Longfellow in the face in order to provoke him and a scuffle broke out which was quickly broken up.

While Longfellow and his girlfriend drove to their nearby home to tend to his wounds, Aldhouse went to a convenience story and stole a knife. According to media report, Aldhouse confronted Longfellow again outside his apartment and the Purple Heart recipient was fatally stabbed. His girlfriend tried to resuscitate him but he was dead before the ambulance arrived.

James Goyder is a freelance journalist and photographer from the U.K. who is based in Phuket, Thailand.

Not dissing the Security Guy, but I've read/heard that Doormen/Bouncers say if their soft skills have not deescalated the situation and that they have to resort to hard skills then they didn't perform their duties well. Or maybe it was something Dalton/Patrick Swayze said in Road House lol

Can't comment on bouncing work, but I can apply 14 years of LEO experience. Verbal de-escalation works 98% of the time, if properly applied. That still leaves 2% of the time that the universe has just determined that there WILL be a fight no matter how smoothed tongued you are.

Not dissing the Security Guy, but I've read/heard that Doormen/Bouncers say if their soft skills have not deescalated the situation and that they have to resort to hard skills then they didn't perform their duties well. Or maybe it was something Dalton/Patrick Swayze said in Road House lol

Can't comment on bouncing work, but I can apply 14 years of LEO experience. Verbal de-escalation works 98% of the time, if properly applied. That still leaves 2% of the time that the universe has just determined that there WILL be a fight no matter how smoothed tongued you are.

There was an interesting study done by the FBI several years back on LEO's killed in the line of duty, trying to identify character traits that were correlated with those deaths. They showed some interesting things.

Victim officers tended to be veteran officers with an average of 5 years on the jobVictim officers tended to have a service orientation over enforcement orientationVictim officers tended to rely on their ability to talk their way out of situationsVictim officers tended to use less force than fellow officers claim they would have in similar situationsVictim officers tended to use force later than fellow officers said they would have in similar situations