Yes. Unleash Elements without Unleashed Fury provides less damage for the cast time (in that case, the GCD) than any other spell Elemental Shaman have available, even Lightning Bolt, even if you use it for the most-valuable Fire-based spell. It isn't worth casting unless you have the Unleashed Fury talent, and it's not (currently) worth taking Unleashed Fury over PE or EB.

When you have your 10th stack of Wushoolay's you only have time for one cast to be finished. Ideally you're casting LvB here, or you can finish casting an EB before the buff wears off. If not, look to refresh Flame Shock or do a highly charged Fulmination, as those would be better for your dps than a LB filler.

Thanks, I figured it was going to be a straight forward answer. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to be missing something important.

Originally Posted by Endus

Yes. Unleash Elements without Unleashed Fury provides less damage for the cast time (in that case, the GCD) than any other spell Elemental Shaman have available, even Lightning Bolt, even if you use it for the most-valuable Fire-based spell. It isn't worth casting unless you have the Unleashed Fury talent, and it's not (currently) worth taking Unleashed Fury over PE or EB.

Well as we know the Icy-Veins guides were updated by top players. Leeds from Method ended up covering Elemental, and in a section of the guide he covers a timely spot to actually use Unleash Elements. It was something I questioned at first, and still honestly do... but the unique window to use it how he described it is so rare that maybe it's not that HUGE in value to make a note of it. But regardless, here is the little snip from his guide.

5.1. Using Unleash Elements
Normally, using Unleash Elements for Flame Shock or Lava Burst does not increase your damage enough that it will make up for the global cooldown you used to cast Unleash Elements.

However, there is a trick to make both Flame Shock and Lava Burst benefit from the Unleash Flame buff that Unleash Elements gives you. Simply cast Lava Burst immediately followed by Flame Shock, while Unleash Flame is active. Both spells will land on the target at the same time and both spells will benefit from Unleash Flame.

The only time when you should use this trick is when you want to refresh Flame Shock and Lava Burst happens to be off cooldown. In every other situation, it is not worth delaying your cast of Lava Burst or refreshing Flame Shock early just for using the trick.

How I read it and my assumption is, the only way this trick will work is if you're hard casting a LvB, because the GCD to follow it up with a FS right after is available. Where as with a Lava Surge proc you would not be able to get them both off at the same point in time. I've personally been doing this whenever the stars align, but it's such a rare occurrence that I can't say how much gain I get out of it.

Well as we know the Icy-Veins guides were updated by top players. Leeds from Method ended up covering Elemental, and in a section of the guide he covers a timely spot to actually use Unleash Elements. It was something I questioned at first, and still honestly do... but the unique window to use it how he described it is so rare that maybe it's not that HUGE in value to make a note of it. But regardless, here is the little snip from his guide.

How I read it and my assumption is, the only way this trick will work is if you're hard casting a LvB, because the GCD to follow it up with a FS right after is available. Where as with a Lava Surge proc you would not be able to get them both off at the same point in time. I've personally been doing this whenever the stars align, but it's such a rare occurrence that I can't say how much gain I get out of it.

The reason that works is because the Lava Burst is flagged with UE when it's cast, but the buff isn't consumed until it hits. So if you get a Flame Shock off before it hits, both get the benefit.

I don't encourage that, because it's basically making use of a bug in the way the buff is applied, and I'm not comfortable advising people to abuse a bug, particularly for an exceptionally minor DPS gain. And, like Bink stated below, if you screw it up and the LvB hits before you cast FS, you don't gain this benefit and you've lost DPS.

Well as we know the Icy-Veins guides were updated by top players. Leeds from Method ended up covering Elemental, and in a section of the guide he covers a timely spot to actually use Unleash Elements. It was something I questioned at first, and still honestly do... but the unique window to use it how he described it is so rare that maybe it's not that HUGE in value to make a note of it. But regardless, here is the little snip from his guide.

How I read it and my assumption is, the only way this trick will work is if you're hard casting a LvB, because the GCD to follow it up with a FS right after is available. Where as with a Lava Surge proc you would not be able to get them both off at the same point in time. I've personally been doing this whenever the stars align, but it's such a rare occurrence that I can't say how much gain I get out of it.

Technically yes, that is possible. Practically though I don't think it's that worthwhile to try to achieve, especially since when you hit UE you have to take advantage of the gimmick to avoid loosing DPS.

I'm sorry if this is a trivial question or has been already asked ( a bit too many posts to read through ), is there a reason why none of the "optimal" talent combination choices mention Elemental Mastery? Are the other 2 choices, namely Echo of the Elements and Ancestral Swiftness that much better?

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yep, this is just napkin math and you will rarely have nothing better to cast while UVLS is up ... but this seems to be a senseful use of UFlame to me

You forgot to take Overloads into account.

Originally Posted by Avengerx

I'm sorry if this is a trivial question or has been already asked ( a bit too many posts to read through ), is there a reason why none of the "optimal" talent combination choices mention Elemental Mastery? Are the other 2 choices, namely Echo of the Elements and Ancestral Swiftness that much better?

Because it's not optimal? There are Very Specific reasons to take EM, but as soon as you start delaying uses the value drops considerably. Using on cooldown or keeping for Ascendance with T15 4pc still gives less damage than Echo.

My guild is going to be swapping over to Horde this week, so I'm faced with the decision of Troll vs Orc. I'm looking into next Tier more so then current as we have it on farm. I know the beast damage was a major part in what made Troll so good for everyone but it's looking like there will be only 1 beast in the form of a Protodrake next tier thus making that specific Troll Racial much less needed.

I've been doing a lot of simming and all results are coming up mixed between the two. Is the Blood Fury and Berserking racial really just that close to the point where it's personal preference? When I say I'm getting mixed results I mean the sims are swinging a small 600 dps in either direction.

My guild is going to be swapping over to Horde this week, so I'm faced with the decision of Troll vs Orc. I'm looking into next Tier more so then current as we have it on farm. I know the beast damage was a major part in what made Troll so good for everyone but it's looking like there will be only 1 beast in the form of a Protodrake next tier thus making that specific Troll Racial much less needed.

I've been doing a lot of simming and all results are coming up mixed between the two. Is the Blood Fury and Berserking racial really just that close to the point where it's personal preference? When I say I'm getting mixed results I mean the sims are swinging a small 600 dps in either direction.

Berserking will always line up with Ascendance, the current problem is that with our 4p the cooldown of Ascendance goes down to ~2 minutes which is the blood fury CD IIRC?

I do believe trolls should be better and have a higher/more consistent burst, the difference is very very marginal though.

Berserking will always line up with Ascendance, the current problem is that with our 4p the cooldown of Ascendance goes down to ~2 minutes which is the blood fury CD IIRC?

I do believe trolls should be better and have a higher/more consistent burst, the difference is very very marginal though.

I just find it interesting that Berserking is considered better (I went Troll). The Haste gem setup seems to be king choice now with most Elementals that I look at running 42% to 46% Haste, Troll or not. I will note that ToT is my first tier as a caster DPS so I could be overlooking something completely. But I'm currently at 43.12% Haste, the legendary meta procs so much you can almost consider it baseline. With the Meta + Berserking I go over 100% Haste with a 0.896 LB and LvB. Last I checked the GCD can only go down to 1 second, so you can easily push past GCD cap on LB and LvB if you were to line Berserker up with Ascendance and your Meta just happened to proc (it probably would, hands down).

Even without Berserking if you factor in Bloodlust + Meta gem proc you're still going to drop down to around 0.8 cast time.
Now after having gone Troll, when I sim as an Orc with Blood Fury factored in and all there is roughly a 600-700 DPS gain as an Orc. I assume this is related to gaining greater benefit out of a raw spellpower buff vs a capped LB/LvB.

Maybe I'm completely missing something with Haste, but it just seems really strange that everyone is willing to invest this much into Haste when if you factor in these key buffs you're hitting some form of GCD cap on cast times if the meta goes off, which feels like it would nullify it in some way. The obvious answer seems to be "Well don't pop them all at the same time." But the gem proc is so frequent it almost feels like that isn't possible in all situations.

How low is your lava burst cast speed with only the meta gem proc? Should be around 1.1 seconds, correct? So even if you go under the GCD cap you still get more casts off, you don't get the full benefit of haste because like you said, 0.1 seconds gets wasted but it does something atleast.

The reason i myself like trolls more are mostly because it guarantees that you'll always have a speed increase in your ascendance. Yes, the meta gem can proc, but when it doesn't you loose ~1-2 casts inside the ascendance. Also the timing on Ascendance and Berserking will always fit.

In the last tier like this we might start getting into problems like you've said yourself, specially with these meta gems. But there are also positives with being trolls this late in the expansion. Leeds for example is gemming mostly Int/mastery and keeping his haste at ~34% (currently where mine is aswell.) This is to increase his burst damage during ascendance and utility when it comes to AoE and such. Sure, he's probably aiming for high ranks with this spec but when pushing for progression and burst is the major concern we'll most likely shine more with an Mastery flavored approach.

In the current tier with our 4p i tend to use berserking + meta gem (and bloodlust if up) to refresh my flame shock when it's about to wear out, by doing this I'm getting tons of lava surge procs, I'm not 100% sure this is the most ideal way to use it currently though.

The final dps differences are so small you'll never see the difference however, so i wouldn't stress out too much.

How low is your lava burst cast speed with only the meta gem proc? Should be around 1.1 seconds, correct? So even if you go under the GCD cap you still get more casts off, you don't get the full benefit of haste because like you said, 0.1 seconds gets wasted but it does something atleast.

The reason i myself like trolls more are mostly because it guarantees that you'll always have a speed increase in your ascendance. Yes, the meta gem can proc, but when it doesn't you loose ~1-2 casts inside the ascendance. Also the timing on Ascendance and Berserking will always fit.

In the last tier like this we might start getting into problems like you've said yourself, specially with these meta gems. But there are also positives with being trolls this late in the expansion. Leeds for example is gemming mostly Int/mastery and keeping his haste at ~34% (currently where mine is aswell.) This is to increase his burst damage during ascendance and utility when it comes to AoE and such. Sure, he's probably aiming for high ranks with this spec but when pushing for progression and burst is the major concern we'll most likely shine more with an Mastery flavored approach.

In the current tier with our 4p i tend to use berserking + meta gem (and bloodlust if up) to refresh my flame shock when it's about to wear out, by doing this I'm getting tons of lava surge procs, I'm not 100% sure this is the most ideal way to use it currently though.

The final dps differences are so small you'll never see the difference however, so i wouldn't stress out too much.

LvB goes down to 1.08 with just Meta, so yeah pretty close to that mark. I was actually fiddling around with Leed's approach last night because it made the most sense in my head... which was exactly why I was questioning the whole king haste thing. Simming myself with the changes, I lost around 3k DPS with a 34% haste 60%+ mastery build. Granted, I haven't had the chance to raid test it yet so the Sim could be a bit off depending on the situation.
With the 34% haste build though I go down to 0.986 cast times on a double proc (1.14 cast time on single) so it isn't as bad, with an extra 10%+ mastery or so on top of it all.

Also while I was posting this I decided to Sim both Leeds and Brightleaf. Since that's basically a Troll Mastery build vs a Troll Haste build at the same ilvl. Brightleaf was around 4k (so close to my personal 3k lose Sims) ahead of Leeds with his haste setup. But I suppose when you're around the 240k base mark a 4k difference isn't something to spaz out over, and Leeds parses say what he's doing is working. Brightleaf doesn't have any recent since BL doesn't show logs it looks like.

I'll give Leeds approach a try and see how things go in raid.
Thanks for the insight, Telefonorm.

mastery or haste? in current content, its a wash, really, simming patchwerk is cool and all, but mastery is far more effective once you start cleaving, meta proc brings CL way under GCD anyway, so you gain nothing from it past certain point. And there is decent ammount of cleaving, minimum of 6 bosses have it, 4 more depending on tactics or given role, so really, one cant go wrong with either setup and its just a matter of prefference and/or boss/phase you are progressing on.