Stateline New South Wales

Prosecuting the Prosecutor

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: Welcome to Stateline New South Wales, I'mQuentin Dempster. First a political prosecution - confirmation that Pru Goward has been preselected, unopposed, for the seat of Goulburn today seems to have taken political pressure off Liberal and opposition leader, Peter Debnam, to some extent at least. Having encouraged Ms Goward to stand for preselection in Epping, Mr Debnam had to watch last weekend as 116 Epping preselectors, including Liberal State executive and State Council delegates, by a 61 majority, choose deputy DPP Greg Smith over Ms Goward. Disgruntled Liberal Party preselectors have emailed Stateline, complaining that Greg Smith was not supported by the majority of local branches. We’ll look into these claims shortly.

In the bear pit, Premier Iemma, Attorney General Debus, Police Minister Scully and Deputy Premier Watkins all attempted to discredit Greg Smith over his alleged conflict of interest as both a high public official and a nominee for preselection for political office. By week's end, Greg Smith was still standing. In the process, the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, which, under the Westminster system, is meant to be independent and untouchable, bipartisan politics, has been well and truly politicised.

Greg Smith SC, 58, married, five children, has been deputy DPP since April 2002. A solicitor and barrister, he has had a long career in crime-fighting, working for the Stewart Mr Asia Royal Commission in the early 80s and later the National Crime Authority and the Independent Commission Against Corruption. He joined the Liberal Party in June this year and declared to Epping preselectors he had been a member of the Labor Party in the 1970s, when he served a term as a Hurstville Council alderman. Later, he was a member of the now defunct Australian Family Alliance. On Saturday, after six hours of speeches and questioning, Greg Smith knocked out all challengers, including prominent Liberal Pru Goward, in the first secret voting round.

GREG SMITH: Thanks, everybody. I'm so humbled by this vote that has made me the candidate for the Liberal Party.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: In the bear pit on Tuesday, the gloves were off as IemmaGovernment ministers tried, under parliamentary privilege, to discredit Greg Smith, questioning his judgment and actions when, on 5 July, he had been alerted by the DPP's IT department that explicit child pornography had allegedly been found on the computer hard drive of prosecutor Dr Patrick Power SC.

BOB DEBUS, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The issue that is particularly raised today is whether, in general, it is appropriate to counsel a suspect before contacting the police. To act in any way that might possibly compromise a police investigation and a potential prosecution shows a lack of judgment, a total – a total lack of judgment, and Mr Smith – Mr Smith should have known better.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: Greg Smith was forced to make a public personal explanation after an internal DPP briefing note on the sequence of events had been linked to the Daily Telegraph.

GREG SMITH, DEPUTY D.P.P.: It was within minutes of Mr Power leaving my office that I spoke with Police Commissioner Moroney's chief of staff, who himself is a detective chief superintendent, and asked police to take over the investigation of the matter. I ensured Mr Power's computer was secured in an alarmed room and took actions in accordance with Mr Cowdery's directions and advice at all times.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: The Director of Public Prosecutions, Nicholas Cowdery QC, from overseas, has said that Mr Smith acted appropriately but the question arising, faced with incriminating evidence, should Mr Smith have alerted the suspect before having alerted the police? The Government hammered this point.

CARL SCULLY, POLICE MINISTER: I have spoken to senior police today about the actions of this individual and they have advised me, in the strongest possibly terms, that there is no justification for informing a person of interest in relation to offences prior to the police being informed, and, certainly in relation to child sex offences, a person of interest should never ever be informed before police.

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: For a man who has been one of the senior prosecutors in the State going back over decades, the Labor Party is going to trawl through every single case and try and find technical complications. That's the reality. I mean, Greg Smith knew that when he left the Labor Party. He knew the Labor Party would turn on him. I'm just delighted that somebody of his calibre, his energy and his enthusiasm is standing for Parliament.

QUENTIN SMITH: Mr Smith was also under newspaper editorial pressure to step down from his DPP position immediately. He was queried about this on Saturday.

REPORTER: Do you think it's appropriate, though, that a candidate for political office does hold a position - senior position - in the independent DPP of the State?

GREG SMITH, LIBERAL CANDIDATE: Yes, I do. The DPP Act permits it. It only requires that I retire three weeks before the elections, before the writs are called.

I have some cases coming up that – it would disappoint the victims of crime who are the subject of these appeals if I pulled out of them, so I will just have to sort that out with Nick Cowdery when he comes back.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: On Wednesday, Attorney General Debus raised the pressure further when he tabled Crown Solicitor’s advice that Mr Smith may have breached the DPP's code of conduct by accepting telephone appeals from Peter Debnam and Liberal senator Bill Heffernan to reverse the decision not to prosecute an alleged and now ageing child sex offender. Stateline had raised with the matter with the Attorney General two weeks ago. This was his reply then.

BOB DEBUS, ATTORNEY GENERAL: It was admittedly the case that the Leader of the Opposition and Senator Heffernan rang up the acting Director of Public Prosecutions in New South Wales and urged them to reverse the decision to no bill a person who had been charged with a child sex offence.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: Why is that improper? They could have written him a letter? What's the difference between a letter and a phone call?

BOB DEBUS, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think a phone call is far more, as it were, intimidatory. I am terrifically careful how I deal with the DPP in matters of this nature. I'm the Attorney General. In fact, I send the director of Public Prosecutions a very careful letter if I think that there is some possibility that it would be reasonable to review a case. It's obviously necessary, under our system, that the DPP is seen to be independent.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: But you're playing politics with this, with great respect, attorney, because Smith is running for preselection for the Liberal Party in Epping?

BOB DEBUS, ATTORNEY GENERAL: It is no doing of mine that a deputy Director of Public Prosecutions in New South Wales is seeking preselection for the Liberal Party.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: And this was his position on Wednesday when he tabled Crown Solicitor's advice.

BOB DEBUS, ATTORNEY GENERAL: It is not appropriate for a public office holder, who has a known interest in a particular issue and a public profile in relation to that issue and is a senior member of a party for which another public office holder seeks preselection, to directly contact that other public office holder in circumstances where the second public office holder is required to make anindependent decision on a matter that is related to, or might be perceived as being related to that issue.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: The Debnam-Heffernan phone calls to the deputy DPP have now been referred to the Independent Commission Against Corruption. Greg Smith denies any impropriety. Mr Smith is expected to hold talks with DPP Nicholas Cowdery after Mr Cowdery’s return from overseas and is now expected to stand down to concentrate on the Epping campaign.

Stateline sought an interview with Greg Smith. He declined. Confronting an attack from Labor in the bear pit is one thing Mr Smith may be able to outride, but there is also dissension within the Liberal Party. Emails and faxes to Stateline from disgruntled Epping preselectors reveal there remains complaints documents about branch-stacking, particularly the contentious Cherrybrook branch, which, with 34 out of 72 preselectors, added, with the right dominated State Executive and State Council guaranteed Greg Smith's endorsement on the first ballot, 61 votes to a total of 55 votes for five challengers, including Pru Goward at 32 votes. One informant who Stateline has undertaken not to identify said:

“Greg Smith was not and is not supported by the majority of local branches, namely Beecroft, Cheltenham, Epping, Epping Young Liberals, Marsfield, North Epping and Pennant Hills/Thornleigh. Some of the Cherrybrook pre-selectors could not speak English. One old lady had to be assisted in casting her vote (in a Yes/No ballot). Many of the Cherrybrook pre-selectors live outside the electorate and do not vote in Epping. They are a renegade branch that does not support the local area. This is the first time we have laid eyes on them as a group. They have not participated in fundraising events so I hope they have deep pockets, because Smith will need a large budget to find the campaign. He will not be supported by the rank and file Epping members.”

Liberal Party State President, Geoff Selig, declined an interview to respond to this, but in a statement, State director, Graham Jeski, stood by the party's secret ballot preselection process, saying our informant was speculating about the breakdown. He said local preselections within the Liberal Party were in stark contrast to Labor, where recently Labor's National Executive had overridden rank and file involvement. Mr Jeski said the Liberal’s constitution and rules were currently under three-yearly review.

Joining me now from Parliament House to discuss the week's events is the Leader of the Opposition, Peter Debnam.

Thanks for joining Stateline, Peter Debnam. Do you expect that review to clear the air and to eliminate undemocratic practices in your party, branch-stacking and the mass movement of preselectors from one electorate to a contiguous electorate?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Quentin, we have got a very democratic process in our party, as Graham Jeski says, as compared to the Labor Party. I mean, the contrast is just stark.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: You look at the information - all of those Cherrybrook branches, that's a stack. That is a stack.

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Quentin, I know you love to run these stories, but, look, every single preselection this year we've delivered the best candidate and, Quentin, I'm looking forward to the story you will run later in the year which says Peter Debnam is right. These are the best candidates for every single electorate. And with Greg Smith, he is a very talented public servant. He is one of the most respected prosecutors in New South Wales. He is a great candidate.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: You have stood by him all week while he has been under this intense pressure from the Government. Let's deal with your actions, though, first. Was it proper for you and Senator Bill Heffernan to ring Greg Smith in his capacity of acting DPP to lobby him personally to revert that no bill on the alleged sex offender?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Quentin, you will appreciate that now I have referred the government to ICAC on these specific issues, and the government has responded 24 hours later by referring me to ICAC, it is actually going to be a little difficult to discuss these issues with you.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: The issue is important in the context of the separation of powers, is it not, and Mr Smith may well be an Attorney General in a government led by you?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Well, Quentin, he is firstly, hopefully, going to be the Member for Epping after he door knocks in the first six months and that's his first priority, is to represent the people of Epping. From my point of view, I would repeat from Greg Smith has said to you, neither of us has done anything wrong at all, but we’re going to have to let the authorities deal with it and reach a conclusion.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: Have you ever rung the Director of Public Prosecutions, to lobby him on the matters on the exercise of his discretion as the prosecutor?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Quentin, as you know, I have frequent conversations with Nicholas Cowdery through the media.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: But have you ever rung him? The point is why ring Smith if you've never rung Cowdery?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Quentin, you will appreciate that, as you've heard many Labor ministers say over the years, once it has been referred to ICAC, it's probably not prudent to comment any further. And I've referred the Government and 24 hours later the Government referred me, so I have to leave it to them to resolve the issue.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: You are taking the fifth, are you?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: I'm afraid I have to. I'm very happy with my position, what I've done. Greg Smith, I know, is the same, and we will let the authorities sort it out and let the Government sort out their muck-raking.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: What about Mr Smith's actions in calling the police after he had notified his fellow prosecutor that incriminating child pornography had allegedly been found on his computer hard drive? Was that not an error of judgment on Mr Smith's part?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Quentin, look, I don't think it has been an error of judgment. I mean, what you've got is a Labor Party attack on somebody who was in the Labor Party years ago and has decided to leave the Labor Party. He is a star candidate for the Liberal Party and the Labor has had a lot of information for months and they've decided, 24 hours after Greg Smith was preselected, to start attacking him. They knew they had a window of opportunity between Saturday's preselection and Friday, when Nicholas Cowdery - - -

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: There is no doubt he is under a bear pit thugging, but the point is should he not have called the cops before he called the suspect?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Well, I think he has made that point very clear. Everything he has done is according to the law. He feels he has done the correct thing, and I'm sure Nicholas Cowdery will confirm that in due course.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: You are confident, are you not, that the Independent Commission Against Corruption will clear you and Greg Smith?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Absolutely, Quentin, and that's why I referred the Government to ICAC, because I think they've got a lot of questions to answer.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: I suppose the point here is that the DPP’s office has been politicised by all this, you ringing Smith, all these – all these - the fact that you think you could ring Smith. Should Mr Smith stand down immediately as Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, in the interests of maintaining public confidence in that office?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Well, Quentin Smith, as I've said for a week, I would like Greg Smith to be door knocking as soon as possible. The difficulty he had was he had to wait until Nicholas Cowdery arrived back from overseas. He has arrived back from overseas today and I’m hopeful that between Greg Smith and Nicholas Cowdery, over the next few days, they will reach an early conclusion on a date that Greg can start door knocking.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: So you expect him to stand down within, what, the nextweek?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: I would like him to stand down as soon as possible but he’s got to agree that with Nicholas Cowdery.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: Mr Debnam, Pru Goward has been preselected unopposed for the seat of Goulburn, but won't your coalition partner, the Nationals, still be interested in running in that seat? Just tell us about the coalition agreement.

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: No, the National Party won't be running in Goulburn, that's agreed, and Pru Goward is the only nomination for preselection. So, what we do now is move to an endorsement meeting sometime in the next week or two, with the conference in Goulburn, and then she is out there door knocking.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: So how much pressure did you have to put on the challenger to Pru Goward in that position, how much persuasion?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Quentin, I know you keep coming back to our democratic processes, but, look, all I can do is talk to everybody. I mean, the Labor Party Mark Arbib - Morris Iemma just does whatever Mark Arbib wants him to do, and they just go plonk. I actually have to work it through with people and talk it through, and that’s what I spend a lot of my time doing.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: There are three other difficult preselections coming up in your party - Stephen Pringle in Hawkesbury on 14 October, Andrew Humpherson in Davidson and Julian Skinner in North Shore. Do you stand by those sitting members? Do you want them in your team?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Quentin, absolutely. They’re all doing a great job and they’ll continue doing a great job, not only right up to the election but, hopefully, they will be re-elected at the election and continue after that.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: If Pringle, Humpherson or Skinner are knocked off, you’ll be depleted, your image will be depleted, again after the - you haven't been able to deliver Goward in Epping?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Quentin, I know in every silver lining you will find a dark cloud but, look, I mean, in every preselection this year we've chosen the best candidates. All the sitting MPs have my total support and I'm working for them. Quentin, I think at the end of the year you will be happy we have delivered the best candidate in every single preselection.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: But you wanted Pru Goward in Epping, you couldn't deliver that, and we know that you’ve intervened in others, Manly and others.

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Yes. Quentin, you know I wanted Pru Goward in Parliament. Now I've got two quality candidates out of our preselection, I’ve got Greg Smith in Epping and I’ve got Pru Goward in Goulburn. I mean, it is a great result.

QUENTIN DEMPSTER: She’s a public official as Sex Discrimination Commissioner, should she stand down immediately while she campaigns in Goulburn?

PETER DEBNAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Well, that’s - that's something she will resolve with the authorities but I note again Linda Burnie, who ran for State Parliament - I understand didn't stand down as a head of a State Parliament until the writs were issued. Now, I want Pru Goward out there door-knocking, the same as I want Greg Smith out there door-knocking, and, hopefully, both of them will be doing that as soon as possible.