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I placed link in other Albanian threads in Eupedia .....look them up ............there is even a map

In modern society, there is no difference between a language and a dialect . As an example, if sicily was to gain independence do you think the sicilian dialect will still be called a sicilian dialect or a language in the new nation!

Where is this map? This is quite strange, a dialect is not equal to a language and as far as Albanian language is concerned, it has only the two main dialects I mentioned, related to two main tribes, tosk and geg, nothing else.

first of all consonants (Th) as in thigh and (T) (tie) and (D) die - are quite similar in Albanian, so Thetis is easily rendered in Deti, like a child trying to say Deti says Theti.

I'm sorry to dismiss your hypothesis, but you're overlooking there however that the Greek language made a change here over time. In classical Greek, the letter Theta represented an aspirated dental plosive /tʰ/. It was only later that the Greek language shifted /tʰ/ to a dental fricative /θ/. In Albanian orthography, like in English, "th" represents an unvoiced dental fricative ( /θ/ ). If this was a borrowing from Classical Greek into (Proto-)Albanian, it would have been borrowed as "Teti".

As far as Toke, the meaning in Albanian is the opposite to the one in slavic, we can easily say they have nothing in common. Toke in Albanian is mud, land (property), earth (planet), so Toka=Terra, or the slavs borrowed this word from Albanian giving a different meaning.

I don't see how "Tokë" could be a cognate with "Terra", because I don't see how *k could be rendered as or shifted to *r (this is not found elsewhere in Albanian). "Terra" in turn derives from PIE *ters- ('dry'), which is also found for example in English "thirst".

In my opinion the Slavic word 'tok' is derived from PIE *tekw- which is for example also found in Greek "toxikon" (poison, hence English "toxic").

word spelling even next to each other , region to region, tribe to tribe ( over a mountain or )differ, same as Albanian and its neighbors.
example in the baltic sea area all these had words which are clearly not related

Where is this map? This is quite strange, a dialect is not equal to a language and as far as Albanian language is concerned, it has only the two main dialects I mentioned, related to two main tribes, tosk and geg, nothing else.

This is part of the article. i will find the language map

Nowadays, Albanian people can be divided into two major groups, the Ghegs (in the North) and the Tosks (in the South)(Note:see Y hg I), according to the Albanian dialect they speak, plus a number of cultural minorities, including the Gabels and the Jevgs. The Gabels belong to the Roma minority, who first arrived to Albania around the 14th century AD
from present Bulgaria, and are among the most politically,
economically and socially neglected groups in the country.
The so-called Balkan Egyptians (Jevgs in Albanian) are a
minority seeing themselves as quite distinct from the Roma
community. They are widely dispersed in the Balkan area
and claim an Egyptian origin.

word spelling even next to each other , region to region, tribe to tribe ( over a mountain or )differ, same as Albanian and its neighbors.
example in the baltic sea area all these had words which are clearly not related

I'm sorry to dismiss your hypothesis, but you're overlooking there however that the Greek language made a change here over time. In classical Greek, the letter Theta represented an aspirated dental plosive /tʰ/. It was only later that the Greek language shifted /tʰ/ to a dental fricative /θ/. In Albanian orthography, like in English, "th" represents an unvoiced dental fricative ( /θ/ ). If this was a borrowing from Classical Greek into (Proto-)Albanian, it would have been borrowed as "Teti"

How do we know it was not rendered into Albanian as Teti - notice the similarity with Deti. We don't know the history of this word. Also, it is claimed that Albanians do not have marine words, so where Deti (sea) came from, what about Anie (ship) etc.

I don't see how "Tokë" could be a cognate with "Terra", because I don't see how *k could be rendered as or shifted to *r (this is not found elsewhere in Albanian). "Terra" in turn derives from PIE *ters- ('dry'), which is also found for example in English "thirst".

In my opinion the Slavic word 'tok' is derived from PIE *tekw- which is for example also found in Greek "toxikon" (poison, hence English "toxic").

Terra is closest to Toke, I do not know how this word evolved into Albanian, if anyone knows a better explanation, go ahead. I notice that Albanian is usually ignored or seen with skepticism when comparing words of common IE origin. Let's take the Proto IndoEuropean word *kap (grasp) -in Albanian Kap-grasp- this is taken as cognate for German habere, also from Latin capere, from PIE *gap (give) - Albanian jap (give). Which one of the candidates is closest to the PIE root word? The german, latin or Albanian? Also words of common PIE origin shared with slavic languages do not necessarily mean these words came from slavic into Albanian. Every word should be investigated.

How do we know it was not rendered into Albanian as Teti - notice the similarity with Deti. We don't know the history of this word. Also, it is claimed that Albanians do not have marine words, so where Deti (sea) came from, what about Anie (ship) etc.

Terra is closest to Toke, I do not know how this word evolved into Albanian, if anyone knows a better explanation, go ahead. I notice that Albanian is usually ignored or seen with skepticism when comparing words of common IE origin. Let's take the Proto IndoEuropean word *kap (grasp) -in Albanian Kap-grasp- this is taken as cognate for German habere, also from Latin capere, from PIE *gap (give) - Albanian jap (give). Which one of the candidates is closest to the PIE root word? The german, latin or Albanian? Also words of common PIE origin shared with slavic languages do not necessarily mean these words came from slavic into Albanian. Every word should be investigated.

Sorry guys but nobody ever read Iapetoc, but I am sure all read the Bullshit of A Kolla

Breg Deti
Greek words Βροχη Virb Bρεχω - Βρεχ-ομαι Βρεχ χ is family of χκγ latin kgc and Β το family of Bpvf
so the word seems to be from same family origin Bρεχ (brech ch as h in Herod) and breg
Now Deti and Thetis
Thetis was God but Virb δυω or Dye or baptise, or make-get wet is also in all forms like noun δυτης etc
remember that aphrodite was ανα-δυω-μενη ana-duo-meni
so the word is simmilar rooted the english word Diver -Dive
in fact is more close due to t and not v

about the word anie (ship) just remember that Athenean word was ναιας-ναυς naias-naus and virb was νεω neo and in plural νηαι-nie (ships)
the root is old Pelasgian - Peleset and is the same root with the Christian Patriarch Noah,
or from Greek times colonies changed through time from naia to anie
personnaly I believe is not an IE word but an Arcado-Cypriot - Levantine- Minor asian

Now about Thetis or Tethys
the Virb Theo Θεω means run Fast, so God = Θεος = The one who runs extremely fast,
in Homer we found her as ηεριη meaning very fast, the other one is Εως eos (morning light)
named as ηρι iri-eri, virb exist also in τρι-ηρεις Trierens means 3 times faster,
according Homer was daughter of Nereus (sea god) but was also the replacer of Titanis Εως Eos

so although sea nymph Thetis or Tethys means fast runner

search the virb θεω

now the word Βροχη βρεχω is considered more new in Greek that the word υετος
while the Homeric is υει -ui and precipitation is υετος, compare with Slavic lie,

about Taranis claim as celtic I can not confirm neither deny since I do not know and must search.

When someone is showing/pointing the MOON
many of us look the FINGER, the first time
But some
continue to see the finger AFTER second and third time,

Terra is closest to Toke, I do not know how this word evolved into Albanian, if anyone knows a better explanation, go ahead. I notice that Albanian is usually ignored or seen with skepticism when comparing words of common IE origin.

The reason for this 'scepticism' as you call it is quite simple: if the words in question are cognates with PIE, but do not adhere to native Albanian sound laws, they must be loanwords. What applies for any other loanword in any other IE language applies for Albanian as well. It's as easy as that.

In any case, I maintain that Latin *r cannot have yielded *k in Albanian, and hence the origin must be a different one.

Let's take the Proto IndoEuropean word *kap (grasp) -in Albanian Kap-grasp- this is taken as cognate for German habere, also from Latin capere, from PIE *gap (give) - Albanian jap (give). Which one of the candidates is closest to the PIE root word? The german, latin or Albanian?

This is slightly incorrect. The PIE root word is *kap- (PIE *k generally yields *h in Germanic). Regarding Albanian, what I would actually expect here is "kap".

Also words of common PIE origin shared with slavic languages do not necessarily mean these words came from slavic into Albanian. Every word should be investigated.

As I said, the point is that this word can't be native of the basic fact that the PIE root word is *bhereg´h and not *bheregh. It cannot be native to either. The word must be originated from a Centum language, and it's compatible with Celtic and Germanic.

Originally Posted by Yetos

about Taranis claim as celtic I can not confirm neither deny since I do not know and must search.

Despite what my screen name might suggest, I did not claim Albanian was a Celtic* language...

Having said this, there are some words that are clearly parallels between Albanian and Celtic that did not evade my observation. This includes:

- Albanian 'Ari' ('bear') is found in Celtic: Gaulish 'Artos', Welsh 'Arth' and Breton 'Arzh'. At the same time, of course, the word is also found in Greek as 'Arktos' and in Armenian as 'Arj' (արջ). This connection must be via PIE.

- Albanian 'Botë' ('world') is also found in Celtic: in the Gaulish tribal name 'Bituriges' (literally 'world kings'), Old Irish 'bith' and Welsh 'byd'.

Taranis, could you give us your opinion on whether Illyrian is a Centum or Satem language? I find that to be very important in reconstructing the prehistory of the Balkans and Indo-Europeans in general.

Taranis, could you give us your opinion on whether Illyrian is a Centum or Satem language? I find that to be very important in reconstructing the prehistory of the Balkans and Indo-Europeans in general.

If as herodous says ( and I agree) , the Veneti where illyrian ( from istria) and the veneti spoke and indo-euro langauge called venetic, then thats the answer.
of course there is messapic language which is said to be illyrian.

Then again, recent readings of italian papers based on roman documents , claim illri ( illyrians) to be only veneti, catali and a few smaller tribes, while Dalmati ( Dalmatians ) and liburnians are not Illyrian but tribes living in Illyricum .

then there are the north picene, illyrian, liburnians or ......etruscans

If as herodous says ( and I agree) , the Veneti where illyrian ( from istria) and the veneti spoke and indo-euro langauge called venetic, then thats the answer.
of course there is messapic language which is said to be illyrian.

Then again, recent readings of italian papers based on roman documents , claim illri ( illyrians) to be only veneti, catali and a few smaller tribes, while Dalmati ( Dalmatians ) and liburnians are not Illyrian but tribes living in Illyricum .

then there are the north picene, illyrian, liburnians or ......etruscans

And what does that have to do with Illyrians speaking a Centum or Satem language? And according to linguistic evidence, the Veneti spoke a language more akin to Italic than Illyrian it seems.

An ancient language of the Balkans. Based upon geographical proximity, this is traditionally seen as the ancestor of Modern Albanian. It is more likely, however, that Thracian is Modern Albanian's ancestor, since both Albanian and Thracian belong to the Satem group of Indo-European, while Illyrian belonged to the Centum group. 2nd half of 1st Millennium BC - 1st half of 1st Millennium AD.

most sites say Centum, some say Satem. this one also says Albanian is closer to thracian

Taranis, could you give us your opinion on whether Illyrian is a Centum or Satem language? I find that to be very important in reconstructing the prehistory of the Balkans and Indo-Europeans in general.

Illyrian according Greek History was a language that got Celticised or was from Celtic origin,

a group of Celtic Tribes invade Balkans much before troyan war, so Illyrian was a mix of P celtic with a non IE that greeks call Pelasgian,
according History Illyrians are sons of Illyros, but in their names we find The Keltos in Pannoni Basin
that means that Early Greeks believe that Celtic were from Illyrian origin, since Keltos was son of Illyros, but it was different,
That makes clear that Illyrian should be at Centum languages, since Celtic was a Centum language, a possible Italo-Celtic language mixed with a non IE.

there is also another theory that area of Illyria (not Illyricum) parts of Makedonia Dardania Paeonia were not IE but got IE from Vryges (phrygians)
Vryges until today are connected with 4 wider families
Brigantes as Celtic
Burgudes as Germanic
Bryges as Thracian
Bryges as para-Greek from Greco-aryan origin (Homeric, pre-Homeric, the later Skudra case)
Bryges play a Big roll in Balkans, since for some they are ones that turn IE the Locals,
Brygians or Phrygians were a Holy Nation by Makedonians, Especially in Upper (west) by ellimians
while their alter name By Argeiads was Mygdonians.

Their language was Isotones with Greek, that means they probably were Centum,

so Illyrian was probably Centum from Both Hypothesis.

Originally Posted by Taranis

Despite what my screen name might suggest, I did not claim Albanian was a Celtic* language...

Illyrian according Greek History was a language that got Celticised or was from Celtic origin,

a group of Celtic Tribes invade Balkans much before troyan war, so Illyrian was a mix of P celtic with a non IE that greeks call Pelasgian,
according History Illyrians are sons of Illyros, but in their names we find The Keltos in Pannoni Basin
that means that Early Greeks believe that Celtic were from Illyrian origin, since Keltos was son of Illyros, but it was different,
That makes clear that Illyrian should be at Centum languages, since Celtic was a Centum language, a possible Italo-Celtic language mixed with a non IE.

there is also another theory that area of Illyria (not Illyricum) parts of Makedonia Dardania Paeonia were not IE but got IE from Vryges (phrygians)
Vryges until today are connected with 4 wider families
Brigantes as Celtic
Burgudes as Germanic
Bryges as Thracian
Bryges as para-Greek from Greco-aryan origin (Homeric, pre-Homeric, the later Skudra case)
Bryges play a Big roll in Balkans, since for some they are ones that turn IE the Locals,
Brygians or Phrygians were a Holy Nation by Makedonians, Especially in Upper (west) by ellimians
while their alter name By Argeiads was Mygdonians.

Their language was Isotones with Greek, that means they probably were Centum,

so Illyrian was probably Centum from Both Hypothesis.

I was talking about the theme Breg from Breg Deti #17

I heard this before, but what is confusing is that in the ancient times celtic ( i have read this from many web sites ) was a language and not a tribe, so did you mean gallic-celts or germanic-celts. gallic tribes where in eastern austria at the time, like the taurisci and carni tribes.
celtic is a culture now btw

Taranis, could you give us your opinion on whether Illyrian is a Centum or Satem language? I find that to be very important in reconstructing the prehistory of the Balkans and Indo-Europeans in general.

Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo

And what does that have to do with Illyrians speaking a Centum or Satem language? And according to linguistic evidence, the Veneti spoke a language more akin to Italic than Illyrian it seems.

Well, honestly, the image isn't clear because I would say that there is evidence for both​ in the area.

Egyptians and Romanoi people do not share origin, ethnicity and language with either of the balkan peoples where they live in, be it Albania, Serbia, Greece, Rumania etc. So they are not an Albanian tribe and they do not speak a dialect of Albanian.

Egyptians and Romanoi people do not share origin, ethnicity and language with either of the balkan peoples where they live in, be it Albania, Serbia, Greece, Rumania etc. So they are not an Albanian tribe and they do not speak a dialect of Albanian.

I absolutely agree. This has little part in this discussion (ie, the origin and development of the Albanian language). To be honest, it eludes me why Zanipolo brought this up.

Sorry guys but nobody ever read Iapetoc, but I am sure all read the Bullshit of A Kolla

for us to read Iapetoc he should publish sth and then we can be in a position to see who writes bullshit among the two, a forumer with a nickname or the arvanite Aristidh Kola.

So according to your explanation of - breg - deti - anije - we can conclude that they are old words (not recent loans), used by people living around the same territory as Albs and preserved with this meaning only in the Albanian language (deti and anije).

Tarantis, my point regarding the PIE -Kap- and - gap- is that these two words are preserved unchanged in the Albanian language

PIE- Kap - grasp
Alb- Kap - grasp, catch

PIE- Gap - give, receive
Alb- jap (nap -dialect) - give

Actually "jap" is clearly not unchanged. The PIE root word is reconstructed with a laryngeal sound.

So why is this is not mentioned but instead all focus is to find the cognates in latin, german, english etc.

The reason I brought up specific words at the beginning is to explicitly visualize Albanian sound laws (ie, where there are changes from PIE). To show that, I used cognates from other IE languages. Now, *k and *p are retained unchanged in Albanian. Well, *k is retained under these conditions, it's shifted to /s/ or /c/ (written 'q' in Standard Albanian Orthography) in other contexts. The other reason was to show loanwords, and also what the loanwords can tell us about the relative chronology of Albanian sound laws.

We can be pretty certain that the *k > *c sound shift didn't happen until after the Roman period because Latin loanwords are subject to it (civitas > qytet).

You must not let yourself be fooled by the fact that Albanian (or indeed any other IE language) is conservative in a specific sound law and preserved the original sound. Just because it preserved one or two sounds doesn't mean Albanian preserved the complete "original condition". The example above (and many others I provided) show that this clearly isn't the case and that Albanian possesses a specific set of sound laws.

Btw, "bote" (world in Alb), "byth" in Old Irish and "byd" - what meaning they have? we have the world - the variant like in Old Irish but it definitely does not mean "the world":)

The world also means "world" in both Old Irish (bith) and Welsh (byd). By the way, the link must here be between PIE, otherwise you can't explain why it's /i/ in Celtic and /o/ in Albanian.

I definitely disagree about the last one, because you must not let yourself be confused by Irish or Albanian orthography. The fact that it's "dh" (or /ð/) in Albanian suggests that it comes from an earlier *mag´ or *mag´h. Because of this, I believe the word is related with Latin 'magis' and Greek 'megas', instead (note that I'm unaware of a cognate of that word in a Celtic language).

EDIT: Also, "dh" in Irish, at least at a final position is silent. I'm also confused which language you took those words from, because lament is 'caoin' in Irish, and 'caoidh' in Scottish Gaelic.

for us to read Iapetoc he should publish sth and then we can be in a position to see who writes bullshit among the two, a forumer with a nickname or the arvanite Aristidh Kola.

So according to your explanation of - breg - deti - anije - we can conclude that they are old words (not recent loans), used by people living around the same territory as Albs and preserved with this meaning only in the Albanian language (deti and anije).

every Greek philologist that reads Kolla laughs,

Now about loans or origin

as I said many times for me ancient Illyrian was not Albanian
but a mix of Celtic + a non IE (minor-asian or Arcado-Cypriot (para phoenician))
later enter the messapic in area
and a colony of Dacian the Germidava, the ones Greek call thermidava, the ptolemys Albanopolis,
is the start area of the Albanian language wich later with Army of Maniakis and the pop movements of Anju and Hunyades gathered there,
Pre Albanian was a Daco-Thracian language which overwhelmed the Illyrian but kept words from old languages and loans,
I don't want to claim that Breg is a loan from Greek or from Celtic etc, But I am sure that is Old Illyrian (either as loan from greek or celtic either as PIE origin) which survived in modern Albanian since they might have no sea words
same with anie, probably from the non IE branch of Illyrian that survive after the Albanization,

and that is also the mistake of kolla, Kolla claims that Dorians were Albanians and try to connect in Homeric,
But from the survived of Dorian dialects we find a totaly non ALbanian language, check Tsakonian dialect, which is the most vivid example of ancient Dorian, more than Grico of South Italy,
Γρουσσα να μου Τσακωνικα Grussa na mu Tsakonika (my language is tsakonika)
ρωταετε να σας επω (rotaete na sas epo) ask me to tell you
just tell in it Albanian to see any connection,

as for rest better read the posts, and read again Kolla and then start, eponymous does not make you wise,

for us to read Iapetoc he should publish sth and then we can be in a position to see who writes bullshit among the two, a forumer with a nickname or the arvanite Aristidh Kola.

So according to your explanation of - breg - deti - anije - we can conclude that they are old words (not recent loans), used by people living around the same territory as Albs and preserved with this meaning only in the Albanian language (deti and anije).

every Greek philologist that reads Kolla laughs,

Now about loans or origin

as I said many times for me ancient Illyrian was not Albanian
but a mix of Celtic + a non IE (minor-asian or Arcado-Cypriot (para phoenician))
later enter the messapic in area
and a colony of Dacian the Germidava, the ones Greek call thermidava, the ptolemys Albanopolis,
is the start area of the Albanian language wich later with Army of Maniakis and the pop movements of Anju and Hunyades gathered there,
Pre Albanian was a Daco-Thracian language which overwhelmed the Illyrian but kept words from old languages and loans,
I don't want to claim that Breg is a loan from Greek or from Celtic etc, But I am sure that is Old Illyrian (either as loan from greek or celtic either as PIE origin) which survived in modern Albanian since they might have no sea words
same with anie, probably from the non IE branch of Illyrian that survive after the Albanization,

and that is also the mistake of kolla, Kolla claims that Dorians were Albanians and try to connect in Homeric,
But from the survived of Dorian dialects we find a totaly non ALbanian language, check Tsakonian dialect, which is the most vivid example of ancient Dorian, more than Grico of South Italy,
Γρουσσα να μου Τσακωνικα Grussa na mu Tsakonika (my language is tsakonika)
ρωταετε να σας επω (rotaete na sas epo) ask me to tell you
just tell in it Albanian to see any connection,

as for rest better read the posts, and read again Kolla and then start, eponymous does not make you wise

Originally Posted by zanipolo

I heard this before, but what is confusing is that in the ancient times celtic ( i have read this from many web sites ) was a language and not a tribe, so did you mean gallic-celts or germanic-celts. gallic tribes where in eastern austria at the time, like the taurisci and carni tribes.
celtic is a culture now btw

well I said Celtic tribes, if you like celtic speaking tribes is ok I think

the certain is P celtic,
P celtic speaking tribes many times entered Balkans,
compare the later scordisci Galates etc
I believe that from N Italy to Pannoni Basin (modern serbia) the area was full of Celtic speaking tribes

the mistake of Greeks, or the misunderstanding is that Greek writters believed that Celtic were sons of Illyrians, probably due to pop, the connection although is clear, for example we know about Liburnian, but do not see connection of Liburnian with Illyros,
so the result is that was a connection in ancient Illyrian with Celtic, the mistake is that Illyrians were a mix of locals + a non IE plus Celtic,

the difference among Thracians and Celtic and Illyrian speaking it was clear I believe in Ancient Greek writers