Say, we shouldn't be in the same group. I find what you love about games to be obnoxious. Building characters to the maximum potential allowable (sometimes by bending or even breaking rules) is utterly pointless and contributes nothing to my actual game-play experience.

However, neither of us is going about things wrong. I hope that the group you regularly play with enjoys how you do things immensely too. There is no right way to play these games and the source of the friction that you're encountering here is from your aggressiveness in presenting your point of view as correct or better than anyone else's. Even that's not wrong. We all do it on the internet. Just try not to take it so personally that you make melodramatic posts over it. Sometimes it helps to walk away for a day and remind yourself that it's just a stupid game. I do that pretty frequently.

_________________Contact me if you're looking for games in Reno, Nevada.Resources☠

And that's your prerogative, for your games. In my games, I am likely to tell you up front that the game will be about a specific concept (where, roughly who the character is [bodyguards for a pharaoh, demon hunters, chi-town dogpack, etc.]) and expect that you'll make a character that fits it. Nobody will make you play my game, if you're not up for it that's okay.

_________________Contact me if you're looking for games in Reno, Nevada.Resources☠

So its a gms job to make anything a player wants suck?Or limit the occ to a useless selection of wimps?

Seems to me, I am not good at crushing creativity to stroke my own ego.

I suck.

That everyone plays by the same rules, so everyone can have fun.

_________________Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own opinions or house rules, they need to be listed/declareds as your own opinions or house rules.

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pmPosts: 9481
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.

say652 wrote:

So its a gms job to make anything a player wants suck?Or limit the occ to a useless selection of wimps?

Seems to me, I am not good at crushing creativity to stroke my own ego.

I suck.

No the GMs job is to make the world for the players to play in. Then the GM helps the group make a group of characters that will be fun and interesting and will work in that world. The first part requires that the GM know what their group will find fun and enjoyable to play. The second part requires all the players and the GM to work together to make a group of characters that are both what the group wants to play, and are appropriate for the situation. And sometimes the GM needs to change the game. If the GM has an intricate story of mystery intrigue and social drama....and everyone has their heart set on playing semi-feral combat experts then I would say that the GM should shelve that game for later and pull out something that fits the brawlers the party wants to play.But if the GM has that game, and five of the players have made investigators from the London gentry so they can investigate the mystery and be involved in the whirl of the social scene and one guy wants to make a super tough combat monster, then I would say it is the player that needs to compromise. They don't have to give up completely though. Maybe they can play a west end boxer who is involved in the exhibition matches that the gentry watches, with the parties common noble patron sponsoring him....but a Ninja assassin with nothing but weapon and physical skills and no cover is going to be a bit harder to fit in....

_________________The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

So its a gms job to make anything a player wants suck?Or limit the occ to a useless selection of wimps?

Seems to me, I am not good at crushing creativity to stroke my own ego.

I suck.

If the G.M. has guidelines for character creation, they aren't there to stroke his or her ego. They are there to help ensure that everyone, including the G.M., can have a good time. A person who was really creative could limit their characters so that they fit within those guidelines and still have fun in the role playing. And who knows? They might even find out they accidentally enjoy the character, restrictions and all, in the process.

It does suck when you can't see eye-to-eye with your G.M. in this regard. I have a player in my game who could tell a similar story about me, but what he doesn't understand is how much it bothers me when I have to tell him "No" to a character concept in my Heroes Unlimited campaign. I want him to have fun and enjoy the game, but not at the expense of the other players, or my own enjoyment.

_________________Zerebus: "I like MDC. MDC is a hundred times better than SDC."

kiralon: "...the best way to kill an old one is to crash a moon into it."

I don't have this problem irl, and have had many fun games.I just noticed the same herd attacks posts and either gets people banned our the merge forming Nerftron and bash any original concept to dust.

Mentioned ago there needs to be a few limits (or precautions) for any role playing game to work its best.Like others I discuss the general nature of the campaign I wish to run (dungeon crawl, wandering, city based, galaxy wide etc...) then together we work out a party that won't leave anyone out of the spotlight for too long.Then I view the classes and develop the story arcs around them (also making them personal).

So an example of a limitation in my current adventure I'm preparing is that the first half relies on travelling by ground, but one of huge players has PA that's flies. So ive explained my concerns and he's countered it with "not intending to leave the rest of the group or his mount"Makes sense and he will help keep that part of the adventure on track for me(nope, for all of us enjoying the game).

Someone mentioned earlier that the GM needs to enjoy their role too.

If I have to adjust certain power creeps (one person wants to play a dragon whilst the others all wanna be rogue scholars) then I simply make the next adventure campaign a South American wander where all the PCs are dragons, Golding or whatever they like and we smash the place up! Lol.Time and a place for everything.

If the majority of players want to do a CS army campaign then we make characters from the CS. However, I've never ran a CS game and usually run a sandbox style game. I've got an alien technopath, an ex-CS scientist (who has received some interesting things from the Randomeer item table), a dragon who started out a hatchling and through events was transported to the PF world for centuries and returned much... much older, a BTS psychic using a new on the fly system I made (which will probably be changed to magic), an elite PA pilot and a mystic.

_________________ you some might think you're a but you're cool in book --Mecha-Viper

BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)

As a gm the most difficult player characters are psychics. Any thing else is either a brawler or a blaster. Piece of cake.

So temporal mages are blasters? What about sage classes, ya know low combat high skills, are they a blaster or brawler? I think if characters are only lopped into those two categories, except for psychics, then the game may be focused too much on combat.

_________________ you some might think you're a but you're cool in book --Mecha-Viper

BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)

As a gm the most difficult player characters are psychics. Any thing else is either a brawler or a blaster. Piece of cake.

So temporal mages are blasters? What about sage classes, ya know low combat high skills, are they a blaster or brawler? I think if characters are only lopped into those two categories, except for psychics, then the game may be focused too much on combat.

I tried to turn my Temporal Mage into a brawler once. It was the only time in the game that the brawler I consistently rescued from death almost every combat actually rescued me instead.

_________________Zerebus: "I like MDC. MDC is a hundred times better than SDC."

kiralon: "...the best way to kill an old one is to crash a moon into it."

I just noticed the same herd attacks posts and either gets people banned our the merge forming Nerftron and bash any original concept to dust.

You have a problem with this community and the standards that are commonly held by it. I have to say, you're not going to get very far with this community by attacking it. Also, you don't offer original concepts. At best, you combine rules that were never intended to be combined to create an outcome that excites you personally. We respond by pointing out where you've violated the intent and letter of the rules, which seems to offend you.

If you were producing original races and classes, you'd probably get much more positive feedback. No one could question your interpretation of the rules at that point and we'd focus on whether it was unnecessarily duplicating an existing class or race or how much more powerful the option you're presenting is than similar classes instead. Consider it as a possible alternative to the senseless arguments you're presently suffering under.

_________________Contact me if you're looking for games in Reno, Nevada.Resources☠

A tragic misuse of a mage. They're not at all suited to the role of a ranged attacker compared to technological options. Mages are portable tool-kits for problem-solving. The temporal classes in particular are much more useful for bypassing problems than fighting them.

_________________Contact me if you're looking for games in Reno, Nevada.Resources☠

I just noticed the same herd attacks posts and either gets people banned our the merge forming Nerftron and bash any original concept to dust.

You have a problem with this community and the standards that are commonly held by it. I have to say, you're not going to get very far with this community by attacking it. Also, you don't offer original concepts. At best, you combine rules that were never intended to be combined to create an outcome that excites you personally. We respond by pointing out where you've violated the intent and letter of the rules, which seems to offend you.

If you were producing original races and classes, you'd probably get much more positive feedback. No one could question your interpretation of the rules at that point and we'd focus on whether it was unnecessarily duplicating an existing class or race or how much more powerful the option you're presenting is than similar classes instead. Consider it as a possible alternative to the senseless arguments you're presently suffering under.

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pmPosts: 9481
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.

Bill wrote:

say652 wrote:

Effectively yes mages are blaster types.

A tragic misuse of a mage. They're not at all suited to the role of a ranged attacker compared to technological options. Mages are portable tool-kits for problem-solving. The temporal classes in particular are much more useful for bypassing problems than fighting them.

I will agree with this whole heartedly.Most mages simply don't have the PPE to be blasters and while there are a lot of direct damage (DD) spells in the game, the majority of them are somewhat on the lower power end of the spectrum.I have found that most mages do best if they bring a weapon or two for their combat and use their spells to do stuff you cant just replicate with a gun, a suit of body armor, and a few hundred credits worth of basic gear.Stealth, Healing, Divination, Charm, Mind Control, Teleportation, Specialized Attacks (like drains, stuns, armor pennitrating) Buffs, Debuffs, Summonings......stuff you cant replicate easily with other materials.

_________________The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pmPosts: 9481
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

say652 wrote:

As a gm the most difficult player characters are psychics. Any thing else is either a brawler or a blaster. Piece of cake.

So temporal mages are blasters? What about sage classes, ya know low combat high skills, are they a blaster or brawler? I think if characters are only lopped into those two categories, except for psychics, then the game may be focused too much on combat.

And even there its pretty narrowly defining what roles a player can have...Esper, Brawler, Blaster....Just sticking with the major tropes here that still leaves outThe Face, Skulkers, Bricks, Wizards (can do a bit of anything), Experts (all those skills), Ninja's, Snipers.....

But if the game is one where the only solution is massive comic book style slug matches then yah, you only need blasters and brawlers and everyone should optimize for maximum damage and durability. But if the game is one of social intrigues and mysteries then it really wont matter how many DC you have or how many dice your fireball does...

Ask some of the players in my Tellas game where some of the most important rolls of the game for several players.....were the Dancing and Etiquette rolls at a couple of balls. And where cutting insults and witty banter were able to alter the face of the war in ways that no mere army or vanity of demi-gods could....

_________________The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

_________________DM is correct by the way. - NinjabunnyIt's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer CyborgEvery group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"

_________________DM is correct by the way. - NinjabunnyIt's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer CyborgEvery group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"

As a gm the most difficult player characters are psychics. Any thing else is either a brawler or a blaster. Piece of cake.

So temporal mages are blasters? What about sage classes, ya know low combat high skills, are they a blaster or brawler? I think if characters are only lopped into those two categories, except for psychics, then the game may be focused too much on combat.

And even there its pretty narrowly defining what roles a player can have...Esper, Brawler, Blaster....Just sticking with the major tropes here that still leaves outThe Face, Skulkers, Bricks, Wizards (can do a bit of anything), Experts (all those skills), Ninja's, Snipers.....

But if the game is one where the only solution is massive comic book style slug matches then yah, you only need blasters and brawlers and everyone should optimize for maximum damage and durability. But if the game is one of social intrigues and mysteries then it really wont matter how many DC you have or how many dice your fireball does...

Ask some of the players in my Tellas game where some of the most important rolls of the game for several players.....were the Dancing and Etiquette rolls at a couple of balls. And where cutting insults and witty banter were able to alter the face of the war in ways that no mere army or vanity of demi-gods could....

I take it those were Big Balls?

_________________ you some might think you're a but you're cool in book --Mecha-Viper

BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)

I agree with both of you. A munch would be created if they couldn't handle the restrictions and essentially had a tantrum. Creativity is if a person does the same thing as the munch but not with the intent of "oh yeah, I'll show you". So intent would actually be the coin previously mentioned.

_________________ you some might think you're a but you're cool in book --Mecha-Viper

BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)

As a gm the most difficult player characters are psychics. Any thing else is either a brawler or a blaster. Piece of cake.

So temporal mages are blasters? What about sage classes, ya know low combat high skills, are they a blaster or brawler? I think if characters are only lopped into those two categories, except for psychics, then the game may be focused too much on combat.

And even there its pretty narrowly defining what roles a player can have...Esper, Brawler, Blaster....Just sticking with the major tropes here that still leaves outThe Face, Skulkers, Bricks, Wizards (can do a bit of anything), Experts (all those skills), Ninja's, Snipers.....

But if the game is one where the only solution is massive comic book style slug matches then yah, you only need blasters and brawlers and everyone should optimize for maximum damage and durability. But if the game is one of social intrigues and mysteries then it really wont matter how many DC you have or how many dice your fireball does...

Ask some of the players in my Tellas game where some of the most important rolls of the game for several players.....were the Dancing and Etiquette rolls at a couple of balls. And where cutting insults and witty banter were able to alter the face of the war in ways that no mere army or vanity of demi-gods could....

I agree with both of you. A munch would be created if they couldn't handle the restrictions and essentially had a tantrum. Creativity is if a person does the same thing as the munch but not with the intent of "oh yeah, I'll show you". So intent would actually be the coin previously mentioned.

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pmPosts: 9481
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

say652 wrote:

To a point. I feel restrictions create munchkins.

I agree with both of you. A munch would be created if they couldn't handle the restrictions and essentially had a tantrum. Creativity is if a person does the same thing as the munch but not with the intent of "oh yeah, I'll show you". So intent would actually be the coin previously mentioned.

The same thing can be a munchkin or cool depending on intent....The hypothetical Zentradi Demon Queller I mentioned is a good exampleCreative is "Oh this would make a cool giant monster wrestling guy, go go Godzilla!"Munchkin is "Heh and then using 1st edition rules I can multiply his stats by ten and then......"

_________________The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

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