BoLS will be bringing you Wrath of Magnus coverage all week. Today we look at the benefits of fielding a dedicated Thousand Sons force.

The Thousand Sons are BACK! After a decade in the dark the Thousand Sons are back with a nefarious vengeance. They are an army that will utterly dominate the psychic phase and will bring a unique set of abilities to thier players and challenger to their foes. More on that in the days ahead.

What we will say is the GW Design Studio has done a great job of updating the boring and underpowered single Thousand Sons unit from the CSM codex, expanding upon it and keeping it’s original flavor intact. Look for an army full of icy automotons marching forward in lockstep, under the control of myraid levels of Sorcerous leaders. From the lowly Aspiring Sorcerers leading each squad or Rubrics all the way up to Magnus the Red himself, you will find a perfect set of psykers to produce as much power as you desire. These will of course be backed up by a set of formations, relics and new psychic Discipline of Tzeentch to kick things up a notch.

Now, onto what you came for, the set of special rules that define exactly what the Thousand Sons army can do on the tabletop.

Look at that SEXY cover! If only my Rubrics looked so good when I painted them up.

Take a good look at those new abilities to get a feel for the army.

First off, let’s take a step back and understand why this is important. What this will almost certainly represent is the basic template that will be cookie-cuttered into all 9 Traitor Legions in the upcoming expansion.

The first section is the restrictions that keep your army focussed. Here we see a lot of the same types of things we saw back in the old 3.5 Chaos codex, so only Thousand Sons characters. Everyone who can has to take the Mark of Tzeentch, and no other marks are allowed. All psykers can get the new Tzeentch psychic discipline and the real surprise – free Veterans of the Long War all around. That’s a nice perk!

Then we move onto the benefits.

Blessing of Tzeentch grants any unit with the (free) VotLW who is affected by a Blessing, receive a +1 invulnerable save that turn. Stacked on top of Mark of Tzeentch, you better expect to see a lot of big Rubric units with 3++ saves out there. The Scarab Occult terminators will be even more nastier with the ability to get 2+, 3+i with re-rolls… YIKES!

The Blood Feud rule is both cool and fluffy. I would expect to see this dynamic reused for all the great rivalries across the Traitor Legions, such as Thousand Sons-Space Wolves, Word Bearers-Ultramarines, Imperial Fists-Iron Warriors, and others…

Finally we get the Legacy of the Rubricae, moving the primary cult unit from Elites to Troops. This comes directly from the old 3.5 CSM codex and I think it will be safe to expect such a rule with an appropriate unit for all the Traitor Legions.

The skies of Fenris are aflame, the awful truth revealed. The Thousand Sons, hidden architects of the Space Wolves’ darkest hour, have launched an arcane invasion across those realms sacred to the Sons of Russ. The Wulfen’s Curse has taken hold, the daemonic invasions that followed it a precursor to deadly Imperial bombardments that saw Chapter set against Chapter. The bringer of this system-spanning doom is Magnus the Red, an ancient demigod overthrown by the Fenrisians of yore. With the daemon primarch’s reappearance in realspace, a vendetta ten thousand years in the making has flared into world-shattering violence. The Crimson King is back to conquer Fenris, and the legions of the Warp march with him.

The Books

War Zone Fenris: Wrath of Magnus is the concluding part of the saga that began with War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen, in which the Thousand Sons return to Fenris to enact vengeance on the hated Space Wolves – led by their Daemon Primarch, Magnus the Red.

Book 1

This 136-page hardback book contains the thunderous, galaxy-shaking story of the Wrath of Magnus; set over 3 chapters, it features a huge selection of brand-new artwork supporting the story within. There’s also a uniform guide, with colours and icon guides for several Thousand Sons warbands:

– Thralls of Magnus
– The Sectai Prosperine
– The Tizcan Host
– The Prism of Fate
– The Blades of Magnus
– The Exiled and Estranged

Book 2

The 64-page book 2 of War Zone Fenris: Wrath of Magnus features a huge amount of new Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons:

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These seem really nifty, and hint more towards Rites of War from 30k vs straight special rules (see the restrictions and downside (Wolves get hatred you).

Overall though it looks very positive when combined with there new weapons, ap3 Bolters? yes please! Though I’m sure people will still find a reason to be unhappy.

gyar

Tsons always have had Ap3 Bolters. The warp flamers and soul cannon or whatever it is will be a good addition though.

Agent OfBolas

soul cannon … for 30 points? Nothing special if I can be honest. I preffer Assault Cannon, just because of higher S.

Alpharius

Is that how much the AP3 rotor cannon costs? LOL!

And it seems they kept slow&purposeful, so all those flamers are useless unless you bring that relic that lets you still shoot overwatch. Is the unit leader able to take relics?

Agent OfBolas

The problem with 1k sons is always the same. Insane price tag.

They are not able to win a firefight with Loyalist Marines armed with a single Plasma. Not in point for point fight.

On top of that, CSMs unfortunately lost all their Drop Pods, so no access to dirty cheap delivery system (Loyalists get it for free lol).

And finally, the whole book is just about new deamons that are simply going to spam tabletop with insane amount of bodies. You still won’t see a single CSM on table.

Kevin Buesse

You keep saying loyalist get transports for free, which is only true if they take the Gladius. You’re spreading half truths.

We’ve not seen any formations for the TS yet so you’re comparing apples to oranges.

While I don’t believe the formations will fix the core issue with the TS at least wait to declare doom until then.

Who knows maybe they’ll get a formations that makes them overwatch and teleport.

As it stands yes they are crap and likely to remain so, but let’s get the whole picture first.

Djbz

They can teleport/fly around with some of the psychic powers from traitors hate.

Kevin Buesse

True,

But given that the Rubricae Sorcerer is only L1 and must take his powers from Lore of Tzeentch. That then requires you add yet another expensive character to the unit to make it work properly. This seems like a losing proposition.

Randy Randalman

Except the T-Sons will melt the loyalist squads with psychic powers before the firefight happens, and the T-Sons will have invulnerable saves to survive it if it does happen.

Daniel Hall

I would tend to agree, the intial damage during the psyker phase + the Rubricae shooting… not terrible, but EXPENSIVE.

I definitely see 1-2 uses have a place in thousand sons lists. 3++ on tap, and free re-rolls helps immensely.

Moik

That’s not how invuln. saves work, and even if they did they’d only be point for point effect as effective. That still leaves the son’s undergunned.

The psychic powers are a joke, and the sorcerer comes at the price of a full character.

So to sum up:
-Psychic powers aren’t good
-guns aren’t good
-Inv. saves aren’t good

And that’s the unit’s STRENGTHS.

Agent OfBolas

I’ve had a “pleasure” to see whole content. 1k sons are unplayable crap, outside deamons … that are insane OP.

This shows how dumb GW is in terms of writing books because they can’t make anything balanced and are jumping between insane OP units/books and total goo.

Ryan C

The problem is that nothing has “really” changed if the rumours are true for the Rubrics, sure they can get flamers and a heavy weapon now but both are super cost prohibitive on a unit that is already so cost prohibitive that it was considered one of the most overpriced units in the entire game.

The warp flamers largely aren’t worth taking, if you want to mass flamers just take a unit of Havocs with 4 flamers for half the points per model that can STILL overwatch and won’t give the target FnP.

This book is suffering from the exact same problem that Codex: CSM suffers from if the rumours are correct. The space marine part of it simply sucks because it is so over costed that taking them is a liability.

The problem is CSM players WANT to run CSM. We want to put space marines on the table and not feel like we are gimping our army.

Unless the rules are different than the rumours the competitive way to run these new rules will be to mass Tzaangors and Horrors while not taking a single marine or terminator.

THAT is why we are, and continue to be unhappy.

CMAngelos

Well with what’s being added. (New Wargear and special rules) I’d say you’re also likely to see a points adjustment. Hopefully for the better.

Ryan C

Reputable rumour sources that have shared screenshots from inside the book are suggesting there is no points adjustment.

CMAngelos

I guess I’m just missing something.

To me they appear to be very durable Marines with anti MEQ weapons that are supposed to be small/elite and they’re bad?

I dunno maybe I’m playing a different game than everyone else, because these seem fun to me, enough that I’m finally considering a CSM army in the near future. But again opinions may differ

Agent OfBolas

Don’t do it. Seriously.

This book looks like polished goo, but it’s still a goo.

No one played 1K sons, just because of their INSANE cost. Making them even more expensive it’s not making things better. They still die to dirty cheap shoots like any other T4 3+ body.

Daniel Hall

If you design the list correctly on the table you wont have to worry about that; Tzaangors and cultists will be the ones eating that kind of shooting.

Hopefully. and anything that easily removes models such as terminators or 3+ save marines really gets hampered with a 4++/3++ on tap.

DJ860

Or, you could play your own game and stop sucking the fun out of things for other people before they’ve even had a chance to try something.

Brett Thompson

I’ve played 1K Sons competitively and in tournaments for years, and the way I’ve made them work is to run them with allied Tzeentch Daemons, where the latter often soaks up the torrent and can summon in more bodies to keep the army going. This new update will make this approach even better.

Ryan C

I love the idea of them, the problem is that they are slow and very expensive so super vulnerable to small arms fire.

For 280pts my buddy get can 20 Imperial Fist Marines. Thats the same cost as about 10 Rubrics and their Sorcerer.

The 20 fists are simply far better than the 10 Rubrics and on top of that its possible for those 20 fist to also both get free transports which Rubrics have a hell of a time cracking open to make us of their AP3 bolters.

CMAngelos

Those 20 Fists don’t get anything but bolter drill with 20 dude. Other stuff has to come along with em.
(Side note I Play Imperial Fists and blood Ravens as my two primary 40k armies)

Marine vs marine I’d put my money on the rubric since they actually get saves.

However at this point until I see the formations in some official source im not going to agree that they straight suck because formations can change a lot. (For better and for worse.)

Ryan C

Yet you see tons of marine armies in tournaments and no one brings Rubrics these days.

I’d take 20 obsec marines with bolter drill (and free transports) over 10 slow Rubrics any day in a competitive game.

The Imp fists win that shootout because they outnumber 2:1. They also are going to kill almost everything else in the game more efficiently except MEQ which is almost equal.

AP3 is cool, but it isn’t half as many shots rerolling misses “cool”

4+ invuln is cool, it means against high AP weapons they have effectively 50% more resilience while having no better resilience vs small arms fire. Twice as many “wounds” means the fists have 100% more resilience against everything.

On top of that you can’t discount the downside of simply having half as many bodies on the battle field so you have a harder time capturing objectives and securing the board.

If Rubrics were sub 20pts per model, mybe 17 or 18, then we could talk about them being good. But at the current cost you are so much better off taking horrors or Tzaangors instead.

lorieth

I’m not convinced they need to go sub-20pts. In a straight-up firefight with regular marines they are almost costed correctly (see post above) and their other tricks are nice. If you dropped them to 21 pts they’d slaughter loyalists (point-for-point) in a firefight. They could do with more CC punch though, as it is you can just charge them (esp. with their lack of Overwatch), and they’ll suffer against hordes.

lorieth

With 10 vs 20, getting saves isn’t enough to compensate for being so outnumbered, even ignoring bolter drill. The Lanchester combat model says twice the troops are 4 times better; denying the Fists a save only recovers a factor of 3. I don’t really know how to account for the Sorcerer though, and even treating him as another marine makes it much closer.

Of course, if we forget about the Sorcerer then 280 points would pay for 12 Rubric marines with some left over, and 12 are better than 20 std marines (but not Fists; bolter drill makes 20 worth 12.5 TSons).

In any case, it’s a lot closer than people seem to think; a quick calculation suggests they only need a 1-point discount to give them the advantage in a firefight. I think the real problems are the lack of overwatch and their ordinary CC capabilities, plus the usual transport woes; in other words, the main problems are *getting* them into a firefight.

Ryan C

To a degree, but bear in mind that also just in a straight up gun fight with MEQ, where they are SUPPOSED to excel. The one thing they are meant to be the kings of they don’t even dominate at.

Inferno round only are better than bolters vs 3+ and 4+ saves. And they aren’t 2x better. Against 2+, 5+, and 6+ the inferno rounds mean nothing.

On the flip side they have heaps of weaknesses, s&p, no overwatch, no access to AP2 guns, no access to anti tank guns, no access to high str guns, can’t take drop pods (outside of FW), I don’t think they have obsec (to be confirmed), far fewer specialized choices (no Dev squad equiv, no assault squad equiv, etc)

In short, Rubrics are extreme specialists who aren’t even better than the target they are specialized to kill.

Malisteen

They’re a specialized anti-meq unit that’s pretty much garbage against anything else (the flamers would have helped against hordes at least, if it weren’t for the too high points cost and the s&p). If an anti-meq specialist only comes out barely even against basic tactical marines without any upgrades or options, then it’s a terrible unit.

Moik

That’s before you factor in the lead weight that is the sorcerer attached to every squad.

georgelabour

If you’re getting free transports while only taking twenty marines you should go and read the rule book and codex.

Then apologize to your opponent for cheating.

Ryan C

Right… because a game of warhammer involves only taking a 2 squads vs 1 squad. The comparison was to equate value. Obviously they would be part of a larger force in an actual game.

Agent OfBolas

Point adjustments are reserved for loyalists and their FREE transports.

nurglitch

I’m a CSM player and I’ve been pretty happy fielding CSMs in my CSM armies. Now I know you may not be, but I’m not happy having you make these claims on my behalf. In other words, speak only for yourself, please.

Nyyppä

I don’t think anyone care what happens in someones anecdotal context when the actually relevant context (full on cheese to the max) points to exactly the opposite direction.

Ryan C

Everyone is different thats fair, but the second you choose to put a CSM model in your army list you are actively choosing to be weaker than if you had left that CSM at home. THAT is a problem.

Sure you can still win, but it sucks knowing you are making a bad tactical choice because GW has no clue on how to balance chaos points costs.

nurglitch

I disagree. That’s my point.

Ryan C

Based on what? If your CSM are typically performing on the same level as the loyalists in your gaming group that just means you are better player than the loyalist players.

On an even playing field a loyalist marine is FAR better than a chaos marine.

A loyalist marine is 1pt more than a chaos marine and for that 1pt per model the loyalist gets to be essentially fearless, has access to far more/superior weapons (Grav, Plasma), gets free chapter tactics, can get access to free transports, can take drop pods, and has easier access to obsec in good formations.

In an even fight a squad of chaos marines loses to a tactical squad almost every time unless they get really lucky or the tactical squad is mismanaged.

Karru

A slight comment here regarding your “access to far more/superior weapons” part. Tactical Squad can get 1 Grav gun, 1 Combi-grav and Grav Cannon. They can also take 1 Plasma, 1 Combi-plasma and 1 Plasma Cannon. If they actually want to use the Plasma Cannon effectively, they have to Combat Squad.

CSM squads can take 2 Special Weapons in the 10 man squad. They can have 2 Plasma Guns and 1 Combi-plasma. They don’t have to split to use their weapons to full effect if they wish to manoeuvre. The Grav is true to be the far superior weapon here, but technically CSM has better access to plasma than SM in my opinion. I like to keep my units on the move and Heavy Weapon causes problems with that.

Also a side note, not everyone plays formations/alternative detachments. This reduces the power gap quite a bit.

nurglitch

My point is that I disagree, and resent someone proposing to speak for me and mis-represent my opinion of Chaos Space Marines. Instead of saying “Chaos Space Marine players are unsatisfied with the current book,” say: “I’m dissatisfied with the current CSM. I don’t think they’re a good strategic option for reasons x, y, z.”

Karru

TSons have a problem of the mandatory sorcerer. They cost way too much. 265pts for a unit of 10 that only has the AP 3 Bolters. That’s it. Yes, they have Mastery Level 1 Sorcerer and 4++. They are Slow and Purposeful so charging them stops them right on their tracks. The Sorcerer is a regular Champion stat-wise, so sniping him is super easy in a challenge with no real threat to your own guy.

These traits that Thousand Sons are getting really reminds me of the 3.5 codex and makes me excited to see what the Traitor Legions book will bring. This one was disappointing, but maybe that one won’t be as bad. If nothing else, I have a feeling that the Plague Marines will be better.

Dennis J. Pechavar

3.5 codex was amazing! My Death Guard felt like Death Guard and not just plague marines. Hopefully that’s what we will see.

Agent OfBolas

AP3 boltguns are nothing new, the deal is – they are so expensive, it’s nothing as that great. Terminators costs an arm and a leg… and are armed with CHAINSWORDS (nice joke as for 50ppm guy). No, thank you. Votlw is nothing special. It’s useless on most models.

So yes, I’m not impressed at all, I will still play SM book instead of CSM. Not to mention the insane price tag for new models.

Space Marines are still 100000000000 better.

Dexter Kingsford

Wait, which terminator is armed with a chainsword? You mean the Scarab fellas with power kopeshes?

Iron Hands and Iron Warriors? I thought Imperial Fists were the sworn nemesis of the Iron Warriors? All that, “daddy likes his forts more than my forts” that Perturabo used to be perturbed about. If anyone was upset with the other, I figured it’d be Iron Hands with Emperor’s Children – after all, it was their Primarch that was killed by the ladder’s Primarch.

So the Aspiring sorcerors in the units will want to use force every turn if they don’t have another bleesing power.

Karru

His other option is the magnificent Boon of Mutation. He will be using that Force more than a Jedi Master.

Djbz

Boon of mutation just flys in the face of the Thousand Son’s background.
The whole point of the rubric was to stop mutation…

Jason Peacock

Not every member of the Thousand Sons shared that view.

The Rubric was the act of Ahriman and his cabala only.

Djbz

It was successful though, further mutation shouldn’t happen to Thousand sons models at all

Cody Cassidy

soooo do i buy this book for my TSons or wait for traitor legions book, still unclear

William Jameson

If you’re not really all that interested in the lore of what happens with the Fenris system and the Space Wolves/1K-Sons latest spat, I think it may be best to wait for both to come out and find out what each contain before you put money down on either.

Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

I have a funny feeling all these rules might be in the legions book just as the rules from various books were in Angels of Death. I’d certainly wait and see.

Alpharius

Iron Hands don’t have a rivalry with Iron Warriors. If anything, they would hold a grudge against Emperor’s Children for that whole…killing their Primarch business.

I don’t think anyone particularly cares about Iron Warriors (main reason why Perty was so butthurt all the time). I guess you could say Fists due to the whole siege thing, although Fists/Alpha Legion could work (except the XXth doesn’t hold grudges, they learn and overcome).

Darth Bumbles

I can see killing (one of) the Primarch(s) being the one thing they’d set aside their practical approach for.
“You know what? We’re supposed to be clinical and all that, but you lot killed our Father. Screw clinical, Im going for vengeful today!”

Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

Fists and Iron Warriors have a massive hatred thing going. Honsou’s Iron Warriors also hate the Ultramarines and Uriel Ventris in particular.

Alpharius

Eh, with the Cage incident? I guess. Honsou doesn’t hate the Fists because he is a Fist, that’s why he’s the most competent Iron Warrior, haha.

Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

He still hates them, he just hates the Ultramarines more 🙂

Painjunky

It makes me sad to say it but the 1k sons will continue to be a bottom tier codex.

They are STILL over priced CSM with niche abilities and powers.
My DE (that’s right I said DE!!!) will mop the floor with them.

Tirelion

I fear you may be right.

Latro_the_Zombie

Wrath of magnus, more like wrath of painting 200 blue and brimstone horrors and winning games by a long chorelike spam of models and warp charge… because you wanna win XD

AP4 flamers… b%^ch please

Brian Griffith

In the 3.5 codex, Word Bearers got two things:
*Dark Apostles
*The ability to sacrifice FA and HS slots to field more daemons

Of these, one of them is something anyone can field (though they can’t take terminator armor anymore) and the other is irrelevant due to daemons being allies (and thus you can take more daemons than you ever could in 3.5).

Personally, I’d love a Lord level Dark Apostle available to Word Bearers (with full equipment options), and maybe Dark Acolytes to sprinkle among other units.

If I were to go pie-in-the-sky I’d ask to field Gal Vorbak and Ashen Circle, but I won’t hold my breath.

Nyyppä

Well, if they made the apostles immune to sniping and gave them 12″ or bigger radius for the zealot then sure, they could be ok.

Edouard Decaen

AP3 and still complaining… come on guys

Nyyppä

Let’s imagine that WK has all of it’s stats set to 2 and all of it’s weapons removed and someone says “stomp and still complaining, come on guys”. Would you think that that person has a good point?

Edouard Decaen

You’re going a little far. Thousand Sons are SM with 4++ that can be improved to 3++ when blessed. They are 9 points more expensive than a regular SM but have AP3 weapons. They are nothing like stats 2. Even against plasmas and missile lauchers they are still resilient. They can also kill monstrous creatures if they have good to wound rolls. In a rhino rush it seems pretty good right?

Moik

Sounds pretty awful to me. But if you think they’re good I look forwards to hearing more about your competitive list’s success.

Malisteen

No. It doesn’t sound good. Count their also overpriced champ and they’re basically the price of terminators, but die like plain old tacticals to bolter & lasgun fire. They’re slow & purposeful (no overwatch!) and short ranged, and have no drop pods, only rhinos to try to get them into position to fire. Add to that they’re considerably weaker than tacticals in melee, and all in all things look pretty bad.

They needed a ground-up redesign, not just more expensive weapon options layered on top.

They’re almost sort of workable with the thousand sons legion rules and some of the detachments, but as just a unit in a generalist army, they’re awful. The models are nice, but given how expensive they are, “buy many boxes or none at all” isn’t a great design strategy, imo.

Nyyppä

Not really. MEQ is still just MEQ, no matter what kind of guns you give them. AP3 would mean something if some of their meaningful targets would not be immune to that for one reason or another.

You can not make an effective rhino rush when all your points are spent on 6 of them…assuming you take only basic TS rubicae with no ups. SM can make an effective rhino rush with double demi company but that’s about it.

Prudent_Paratrooper

It would be if you could get 10 for even 200 points but needing 300 points for 9 in a Rhino? When you’re losing almost 50 points every 2 models and they die just as easily to bolter fire as a 13 point model? The problem is that the counter to TS is super cheap and easily spammable, which brings their value down.

Here’s a better analogy imagine the best unit in your army now imagine there was a counter to it that was half the price had objective secured had 6 slots in a CAD, do you get it now? It’s not that the unit is inherently bad its that its so easy to counter that any number of infantry will beat them hands down due to sheet numbers.

Well, if you think that facts are ad hominems then you think they are. It’s just that I said nothing that was more insulting than calling a white person white or a black person black.

sethmo

They are garbage. They were before and now they are again.

A 3+ save with a single wound is a joke for that many points. They may as well be possesed.

Mike X (Official)

“All units that can do so must take Veterans of the Long War, at no additional cost.”

So does that mean they still have to pay the initial/normal cost? The keyword here is “additional”.

Malisteen

No, that is not what that means. The TS rules are bad enough without deliberately twisting the wording to make them more terrible than they are.

Mike X (Official)

I’m right there with you, I’m just not sure if we’re interpreting it correctly. Maybe GW is intentionally making them bad, as usual. Why else would they use the word “additional” in that sentence?

Malisteen

Because normally you must pay an additional points cost (1, 2, 3, or 5 points per model, depending on the unit) in order to purchase that upgrade. Under what nonsense would it go out of its way to tell you you didn’t have to pay some extra second additional fee that never existed in the first place?

MechBattler

Who cares how they play. I’m still drooling over how gorgeous those models are. They are the most fabulous marine models rendered in plastic so far!

Nyyppä

The people who play the game, roughly 90% of GW fans, they care how they play.

MechBattler

Being a Chaos player means being a masochist. It’s easier to not care.

Nyyppä

Also it’s more boring.

MechBattler

I don’t give a hoot about how well my CSM play. I just throw together armies I think would be fun based on my mood. Once I let go of whether or not the army was good and just played the way I wanted it got a LOT MORE fun.

Nyyppä

There are factions that have both of those. Besides being a fan of a faction that can not win stops being fun pretty quickly. Why try if losing is certain regardless of player skill?

kloosterboer

Roughly 93% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Nyyppä

Mine was just an educated guess. One that is shared by every retailer out there that has GW products on their product lists.

kloosterboer

I think the word that you’re looking for is rhetoric.

It’s okay, though. It’s a genuine political tactic to spew opinion as if fact, and have none to back it up.

Nyyppä

Well, if I’m wrong and you have some reliable statistics please do share them. I gain nothing from having an understand of a situation if that understanding is false. Then again, unless you have opposing evidense your bravado here is in vain.

Moik

I think I’m going to keep using my rubrics as counts-as necron immortals. At least my group lets me do that.

MarcoT

Don’t worry guys, these rules are all preparing us for the new 40k edition, in which you roll the invunerable save after your regular save. That will make them solid!