Secular Trans Feminism

About Zinnia Jones

My work focuses on insights to be found across transgender sociology, public health, psychiatry, history of medicine, cognitive science, the social processes of science, transgender feminism, and human rights, taking an analytic approach that intersects these many perspectives and is guided by the lived experiences of transgender people. I live in Orlando with my family, and work mainly in technical writing.

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Don’t give to the anti-gay Salvation Army

This holiday season, you may see bell-ringers from the Salvation Army soliciting donations outside of storefronts. You should be aware that the Salvation Army is actually a Christian church, and its charitable functions are administered by this church. While there are plenty of religious groups that provide social services to those in need, the Salvation Army’s beliefs and activities are not so innocuous.

Scripture opposes homosexual practices by direct comment and also by clearly implied disapproval. The Bible treats such practices as self-evidently abnormal. … Attempts to establish or promote such relationships as viable alternatives to heterosexually-based family life do not conform to God’s will for society.

They go on to declare that sexually active gay people are ineligible for the Salvation Army, and call for “a lifestyle built upon celibacy and self-restraint”.

These aren’t just internal matters of church policy, either. The Salvation Army has involved itself in the political arena as well.

– In 1986, the Salvation Army of New Zealand assisted in a petition drive against a law to repeal the country’s ban on homosexuality.

– In 1998, the Salvation Army withdrew from $3.5 million in contracts with San Francisco because of the city’s requirement for contractors to extend benefits to the same-sex partners of employees. As a result, shelters, food services, and drug rehab programs in the city all suffered cutbacks.

– In 2000, the Salvation Army of Scotland spoke out against the proposed repeal of Section 28, which prohibited any discussion in schools of the “acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship”.

– In 2001, the Salvation Army extended benefits to the same-sex partners of its employees, only to reverse this policy after outcry from the Christian right.

– Also in 2001, the Washington Post reported that the Salvation Army had been in discussions with the Bush administration, which had committed to issuing a regulation exempting the Salvation Army from any state or local laws that prohibited employment discrimination based on sexuality. The administration refused to issue such a regulation after their dealings were publicly exposed.

– And in 2012, a media relations director with the Salvation Army of Australia stated on a radio show that it was part of their “belief system” and “Christian doctrine” that gay people should die.

When we give our money to the Salvation Army, we’re helping to support a church that believes gay people are less than equal, that they should be subject to open discrimination, and that their relationships are inferior in the eyes of God. And this church has been working to ensure that their personal religious beliefs are reflected in the law. That’s the ugly truth behind the change we drop in their red kettles.

While the Salvation Army does plenty of good things to help communities in need, so do many other charities – charities which focus on providing these essential services with no religiously-based prejudice against minorities. Organizations like Goodwill, Toys for Tots, the American Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity, and Feeding America can do everything the Salvation Army does. The difference is that they’ll do it without taking a piece of your donations to fund a politically active anti-gay church.

Sure, it might be easy to drop some money in a bucket. But it should be just as easy to do the right thing. We all want to help those in need, and we can do it without compromising our values of fairness and equality. This season, let’s help out those charities that are willing to respect everyone just the same.

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About the author

My work focuses on insights to be found across transgender sociology, public health, psychiatry, history of medicine, cognitive science, the social processes of science, transgender feminism, and human rights, taking an analytic approach that intersects these many perspectives and is guided by the lived experiences of transgender people. I live in Orlando with my family, and work mainly in technical writing.

I don’t think we should be balling the salvation army into one unit like this, I am personal friends with the owner of our local salvation army and not only is he a supporter of equal sexuality rights but he would never bother his employees about their personal lives. I think that there is a huge issue with bias in this article and we need to be careful about what band wagon we jump on before we go ahead and start portraying every Salvation Army as evil.

Source: Myself, I can personally vouch for the character of the man whom I speak of.

Is this not something along the lines as saying that my local Chik-fil-a owner is nice enough.. I mean it’s the big dogs in the organization we’re talking about here. Anyone who thinks any persons affiliation with S.A. automatically makes them hate the gays is obviously ignorant..

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with judging people for things they do.
If you’re a member of an anti-gay christian group then you think that whatever that group does is way more important than viewing gays as equal human beings and I’m damn well going to judge you for that.

My neighbourhood corps of the Salvation Army has a pastor that doesn’t believe in gay marriage. Therefore, I’m not going to give money to the umbrella organization that provides 50% of services to the underhoused community in my city.

I don’t agree with the doctrine, and personally would prefer doctrinal statements that weren’t
exclusive in any way. But the arguments advanced in this article (and some of these comments)
are pretty unreasonable.

I don’t propose depriving every other charity of funding. What I would propose is that every large charitable organization has a side – whether it’s an element of their underlying philosophy, administrative practices – that probably wouldn’t sit well with a discerning individual. Just like any other “giving” decision, she/he has to make a judgment call based on what’s important to him/her about the work that charity does.

As I already said, there are elements of Salvation Army doctrine that I don’t agree with (it’s important to note, as an aside, that the SA is a massive international organization based on a large church denomination, and there’s a significant amount of variance as to the degree constituent churches/social agencies adhere to “official statements” or doctrine). However, I also know a number of people whom the SA has helped get off the street, or overcome a heroin addiction. This is something that certainly comes into play when I choose to give to the SA over, for example, Goodwill.

In reality, for many people, the decision of which charity to give to is as much a relational one than an empirical calculation (whether that calculation is quantitative or qualitative, i.e. a moral judgment). In encouraging a universal giving rejection of the SA in your blog post, you don’t acknowledge this intricacy. This makes your article disrespectful to people who choose to give to the charity, and potentially damaging to elements of the organization that don’t adhere to the specific positions that you (justifiably) criticize.

this article is discusting!! Not every Salvation Army church is like that, its obvious it just the AMERICAN Salvation Armys, the salvation army in my county has openly gay church members that attend services with their partners, and are welcomed with open arms, its discraceful that every Salvation Army world wide is being attacked because of a few AMERICAN Salvation Armies that are against gays rights

I have gotten to the point that if any religious group solicits donations from me as I enter or leave a store I tell them ” I don’t give to hate groups.” When they inevitably and indignantly announce the Great and Beatific Goodness of their sub-sect, I suggest they tell that to someone who is gay. Stops them in their tracks, it does.

Blueaussi says, “if any religious group solicits donations from me as I enter or leave a store I tell them ”I don’t give to hate groups.””

I’ll bet you’d give to hate groups without hesitation, without thinking, as long as they hated the same people you hate, and you’d pat yourself on the back for helping them do their good deeds of spreading the type of hatred you approve.

The Salvation Army is not now, and never has been, a charity: they are, literally, a militantly fundamentalist Protestant sect. And doctrine is far more important to them than their service work.

This was made very clear to me in the mid 80s, during my theist phase. I was a deacon (basically, a lay minister) with the Metropolitan Community Church in Tucson. Being downtown, we had a lot of people stop by — indigent, often transient — in need of help, and we had a list of places to which we would refer them. As an evangelical denomination formed in 1968 as an affirming outreach to the LGBT community (it was the original “gay church”) many of the people who came looking for assistance were LGBT.

One of the places on our referral list was a Salvation Army men’s shelter around the corner from us. Presumably as a matter of organizational policy, the shelter did not take walk-ins: they needed a written referral from a church or social service agency. After several years of making referrals, the shelter sent us written notice that they would no longer accept our referrals. Apparently, they found out what kind of church we were and what kind of people we helped, and the Salvation Army had a very strict policy against allowing “that kind of person” in any of their shelters.

Their so-called Christian “charity” meant it was better for gay men to sleep out in the cold (Tucson is high in the Rockies, and winter temperatures routinely drop below freezing), in a part of the country where scorpions and cockroaches were native wild life, than in one of their shelters.

Dude, think of it this way. I don’t want gay men in the locker rooms when I’m in there because then they can get “turned on” by seeing me naked. And if you say that is okay then there shouldn’t be a men’s and a women’s locker room, there should just be a locker room where everyone goes and that is not okay. The same thing can apply to shelters.

Aww a little insecure are we? Afraid of some wild gay rape in the shelters bathrooms? Or afraid you DESIRE IT? 0.0;

Look, frankly if you are at a shelter the shower is a privelige, not a right. If you wanted to set different shower times for gays or for yourself that would be somewhat reasonable. But throwing people out to the cold and letting them starve so you don’t have to have some big bad homo checkin your pecker out in the bathrooms while you are DESTITUTE is outrageous.

If you want to give to help the poor during December, here are some groups to consider donating to. Most are (usually) secular, but even if they are religious, are less likely to make religious participation a condition of receving help:

(1) Women’s shelters, one of the largest percentages of the population living in poverty.

(2) Trade unions. Some/Many do organize and give out food or toys.

(3) Ethnic organizations. Most will give only within their own communities, but that’s better than forcing religion on others.

If readers can think of any others, please list them.

Of course, it’s better to donate year round. Poverty isn’t limited to a single month, and self-righteous religious nuts give to make themselves feel better, not others.

how about “targeted” giving? Find someone you know personally, or get a referral from friends or relatives for someone who is known to be struggling who you can help directly out by doing something for them, such as paying a portion of their utility bill for the month, or if they’re homeless, buying them something to help them survive on the streets such as a prepaid cell phone and some airtime cards they can activate and add to the phone over time, so they can use the phone as a point of contact to look for work.

Unfortunately in the town where I live the shelter for the homeless and the foodbank is run by the SA; there is no other game in town helping the homeless and the transients needing some food on their way to a job in the oil and gas industry.

So, you have the choice to send your money to an organization that might help someone somewhere, or deal with the SA even you are aware of their ideology in order to help the local needy.

It is easy to condemn if you live in a city with choices, but the advice fall flat on its face when it comes to realities on the ground.

We are only a small but fairly well off community (oil, gas agriculture, lumber, hydro power)somewhere in the north of Canada.Whoever needs help usually gets it. We do not have dead frozen bodies on our street or hungry beggars in the doorways.

The women’s shelter is a secular organization, run with support of the city, the unions support other groups concerned with health and also the homeless shelter and food-bank.
A second shelter does not make much sense, and there is no local desire or support to open another secular one, considering the churches are relatively strong here, anything from Pentecostals to Mormons to Jehovah’s witnesses to a strong catholic community based on Ukrainians and french Canadians.

The SA has enough support here, but they display their religiosity not beyond the prayer before meals and the sermons on Sundays to the homeless, who are quite often also fairly religious or pretend well.

My atheist wife (she isn’t even baptized) usually donates garden vegetables in summer and sometimes volunteers in the kitchen. The pastors know that we are both atheists, but this does not incite any attempts to convert us.
The goal of the local SA clearly seems to help those in need, and as there is no other viable option around, I rather support their effort as an established channel than no support to the ones in need at all, at least on the local level.

The Salvation army are great people in my city. But we are here in Canada so I don’t know if it differs down in the states.
The soup kitchen here is always open, and the neighbour hood it is located in has a large variety of different religions, and sexual orientations. I have never heard of any one being turned away. ALSO we had a huge gay pride parade (well for our city that is)this summer, and they handed out cold drinks to people who needed it.

Well, except for the part about telling bell ringers why you won’t donate. Most bell ringers are under minimum wage temp employees who can’t get a job at McDonald’s. They aren’t going to relay your message.

This is pitiful. We have so many people who are needing help. Just food, and a place to stay. And now this gay stuff. Oh my God. People, are you crazy? If they help people, they help them. All of them. They don’t ask if you are gay when they help. I don’t have anything against gays. Never had. The bible says it is wrong for a man to lay with a man, or a woman to lay with a woman. It also says it is wrong to steal, kill, and a long list of things that are common sense things. Where a man or a woman puts their parts is their concern. Let them do what they feel right in doing. I don’t get preferential treatment for being straight. Leave all this where it belongs——in the privacy of a home. Stop bashing God like it is all his fault. And stop bashing people for being straight. You show the same prejudice you are accusing them of. This world’s only hope is not a gay person, but a loving God. He loves EVERYBODY. Gays, lesbians,every race, and color, and religion. Get it? Everybody. You take your private hate, and put it in national form.Ideology used to be a good thing. Now it stands for anyone who stands up against the “norm”. Whatever.

Ken you get an immense amount of privilege for being a straight cis male christian in this country. You can show open affection for those you love without risking hate in the form of words or even violence. You won’t be fired or denied housing for being who you are as I can be in most states. You won’t have your civil rights attacked be organizations like the Salvation Army.

The big question is which god are you talking about? there are thousands all making the same claims. All of them equally fictitious.

If they help people, they help them. All of them. They don’t ask if you are gay when they help.

Did you even read the examples cited above, and particularly the one in comment #4? You are lying.

Even if you weren’t, helping some people does not make up for actively fighting the rights of others. If the KKK ran a home for orphans, it would still be wrong to give them money – even if they claimed to also take up black orphans.

He loves EVERYBODY. Gays, lesbians,every race, and color, and religion.

Okay, so since the SA actively works to harm people whom God loves, what does that make the SA?

If they help people, they help them. All of them. They don’t ask if you are gay when they help.

You obviously haven’t been paying attention, because the OP definitely provides plenty of evidence that they don’t, in fact, help all people. Specifically, they don’t help people who they determine aren’t straight.

I don’t get preferential treatment for being straight.

Wrong. The treatment you regard as “normal” would most definitely be seen as preferential treatment for anyone who isn’t heterosexual. Those who aren’t part of the sexual majority are treated damn near like criminals in most places (and in many places literally are criminals on account of their orientation or identification). The fact that you aren’t treated like crap is preferential treatment in itself, and that you’re largely unaware of it is itself a privilege.

Leave all this where it belongs——in the privacy of a home.

Don’t go on dates with your significant other. Don’t hold your significant other’s hand in public. Don’t flirt with your significant other in public. Don’t talk about your significant other in public. Don’t have any pictures of your significant other. If asked, be as ambiguous as possible about the gender of your significant other as possible. Don’t show any romantic interest toward members of your preferred gender as possible, and make sure they are interested in your gender before you secretly ask them out. Okay, now you’re keeping “all this” where it belongs. How does it feel?

First off… Which god are you talking about, and why that one out of the dozens in current use? If we are going to allow someone’s holy scriptures to dictate public policy, why should it be your scriptures and not, say, the Charge of the Goddess: Let My worship be in the heart that rejoices for behold! All acts of love and pleasure are My rituals.

Second, the Salvation Army proves time and time again that they are not in the business of helping people: they are in the business of taking advantage of people who are on the skids and converting them to their brand of snake oil. From my own experience described above, and dozens of other such stories from people I know and trust, I can assure you that they are not a charity; they are a mission. And a very hard core one that has adopted the titles, uniforms and all the other trappings of a paramilitary organization. Can you imagine if an Islamic group were to do exactly the same things that the Salvation Army does?

Third, it is the Salvation Army that has raised the stink against gay people, and they raise it at every opportunity. Do not blame us for making sure that others hear the SA’s own words.

We have so many people who are needing help. Just food, and a place to stay. And now this gay stuff. Oh my God. People, are you crazy? If they help people, they help them. All of them. They don’t ask if you are gay when they help.

Unless they don’t, of course, as witnessed by the poster above you who had homeless men rejected because they might be gay.

I don’t have anything against gays. Never had. The bible says it is wrong for a man to lay with a man, or a woman to lay with a woman. It also says it is wrong to steal, kill, and a long list of things that are common sense things.

No, sure you don’t.
You just think that what they do is equal to theft and murder…

I don’t get preferential treatment for being straight. Leave all this where it belongs——in the privacy of a home.

Of course you do, like the preferential treatment of being able to marry and then get a shitload of benefits.
You know what? If this were just left in the privacy of people’s homes nobody here would complain.

Stop bashing God like it is all his fault.

Dude, nobody here bashes god. We’Re atheists. We don’t think that god exists so for us it makes as much sense blaming him as it makes sense blaming the White Rabbit.

And stop bashing people for being straight. You show the same prejudice you are accusing them of.

Nobody is bashing straight people. Or even prejudiced against them. Actually many people here are straight, dude.

This world’s only hope is not a gay person, but a loving God.

Well, I have evidence for gay people and for human kindness, what evidence do you have for god?

He loves EVERYBODY. Gays, lesbians,every race, and color, and religion. Get it? Everybody.

Yeah, he loves them so much that he will torture them for all eternity if they don’t believe in him…
If that’s love and what Zinia does is hate then I was very confused about those concepts so far…

The answer is going to depend greatly on the community where you live, and what charities are available. Local food banks, Goodwill and community shelters are all good examples of overlap. Charities like Child’s Play and local Secret Santa organizations are also a possibility.

If the Salvation Army is in charge of the food bank in your region, donations of non-perishables will at least ensure your money isn’t being used for anti-gay lobbying, and is being used as intended.

I disagree with the premis that because a group is against gay marriage then they are a hate group. Marriage, in their eyes, involves raising children together and gay folks don’t fit that. Maybe they are old fashioned or not as accepting and maybe even ignorant, but labeling them as hate groups seems just as ignorant to me as not allowing gay people to get married. Big ol’ hypocritical circle.

“Marriage, in their eyes, involves raising children together and gay folks don’t fit that.”

I wasn’t aware that only heterosexual, married couples could raise children together. Someone might want to inform Neil Patrick Harris and David Burtka that their twins (who, thanks to the miracles of modern medicine, are biologically related to both David and Neil – one twin each, same donor mother) that their family is a lie.

But back to the matter at hand: your argument is completely BS. You know why? Because if that were their basis for being against gay marriage, they should be having riots over divorce.

Actually, the Roman Catholic Church is the only major Christian denomination that requires a church annulment. Even the Southern Baptist Convention and the Assemblies of God have dropped that hot potato.

“A hate group is an organized group or movement that advocates and practices hostility, hatred, or violence towards members of a race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation or other designated sector of society.”

… wait for it:

“- And in 2012, a media relations director with the Salvation Army of Australia stated on a radio show that it was part of their “belief system” and “Christian doctrine” that gay people should die.”

There are plenty examples of hostility here, bordering even hatred.

“Marriage, in their eyes, involves raising children together and gay folks don’t fit that.”

Such a traditional view (not saying it’s yours), but the simplicity of its ideality masks the reality of how that type of view can, does, and has been played out… The way you casually state something like this, the paradigm of religious persecution of homosexuals, makes me suspicious you yourself have never had to deal with the level of personal and professional discrimination that our gay community is having to live through. I believe if you were discriminated against and had your rights to marry, among other things, taken from you, you would have very different views on any organization that behaved in a similar fashion to S.A.

I know it’s hard to think negatively of Christians seemingly just trying to uphold the bible. It just comes down to WWJD. Somehow I’m not so sure the Son of God was about intolerance at all, and never would have turned away the needy based on some past or persisting non-violent action.

“Maybe they are old fashioned or not as accepting and maybe even ignorant, but labeling them as hate groups seems just as ignorant to me as not allowing gay people to get married. Big ol’ hypocritical circle.”

Yes, discrimination is all three of those things. As previously stated a hate group is any group that openly discriminates against another group.

How labeling a group something, a mere term, can be as ignorant to you as an active participation in the repression of the equality of a group of human beings is… Well it’s IGNORANT of you.

I’m not totally sure I believe all your sources. A lot of it seems to be hearsay. Besides, even if it is true, since when do you allow a select few big mouths represent an entire group? Isn’t that stereotyping? Does not stereotyping in itself open you up for bigotry? I think people are entitled to their beliefs of marriage and though I could care less who marries who, being against gay marriage doesn’t put you in a hate group. And hating Religion (and Religious organization) because of a few eccentric bigots doesn’t make you any more accepting or kinder of a person. You are just as intolerant.

My only sources were wikipedia, for the definition of a hate group, which wikipedia sourced from the splc.

Other than that for everything else other than one sentence I sourced you and myself. Somehow I’m doubting you actually read it and didn’t just see a generic non-conforming opinion to your own.

You completely projected an anti-religious viewpoint on me. I’m deeply religious. But I’m also a patriot and I believe in the constitution. I believe that all people should have an EQUAL right to pursue happiness. And in separation of church and state. And your ignorance in the face of a nationally oppressed people by the church is disgusting.

I am not religious, I am not anti-gay marriage. Mostly I’m a stickler for inconsistencies and blind hatred and hatred hidden behind seemingly good intentions and gang mentalities. By oppression I believe you mean their stance against gay marriage? Religion is not the only group taking that stance as I’m sure you’ll find very many atheists that actually are prejudice against gay people beyond their ideas of family raising.

I have no problem with gay folks and I believe they deserve the same happiness as everyone else. But gang bang approaches like this which pick out a few ignorant people and turns other well meaning people into monsters does not come off as the right thing to do and I don’t think it does anybody justice.

I am not religious, I am not anti-gay marriage. Mostly I’m a stickler for inconsistencies and blind hatred and hatred hidden behind seemingly good intentions and gang mentalities. By oppression I believe you mean their stance against gay marriage? -No I do not. A stance is not the same thing as active persecution- Religion is not the only group taking that stance as I’m sure you’ll find very many atheists that actually are prejudice against gay people beyond their ideas of family raising. -Really? Very many? Somehow I doubt that.-

I have no problem with gay folks and I believe they deserve the same happiness as everyone else. But gang bang -LOL- approaches like this which pick out a few ignorant people and turns other well meaning people into monsters does not come off as the right thing to do and I don’t think it does anybody justice.

Look michelle, no one made you out to be a monster. You just seem to be extremely sensitive to criticism. Frankly that’s not my or anybody else’ problem. All you’ve done is say some vague comments not really being for or against anything in particular, and sound really ignorant while doing it. That’s not me making you out to be monstrous, and if you feel that way that’s you being insecure. And please don’t refer to getting gang banged anymore. It’s funny, but awkward..

I find the constant zing against religious folks not being perfect as silly. The Bibles readily acknowledge the imperfection of people and only attempt to point you in a direction of ‘good’ (though perhaps outdated).

Bringing it back to charities, I hardly think Religious charities are the only imperfect organizations. Why should one expect perfection in them and not others? Because they preach about being good but don’t want gays to marry?

I really hope you don’t think I don’t support your right to your own personal views. What your views are, and the fact that they coincide with church views, is just that. A coincidence.

I could care less what you or the church thinks or says. It’s the participation and support of anti constitutional laws I’m against, and any person or group looking to get between a person and their god given liberties.

During WW2 the Salvation Army risked life and death to feed the troops. My dad was on Normandy beach and a few days after thousands of Americans died, the Salvation Army was there. He never forgot that. Always two sides to a story.

I don’t understand how that has anything to do with anything. I really do admire the people that participated in that. But that in no way is the other “side” of the gay rights issues being talked about here. Just because I save someone’s life one day doesn’t mean I get to take another persons life (or in this case, freedoms) the next.

Uh, this is a forum on the anti gay views of S.A…. soooo what are you talking about. I don’t just walk into a convo talking about the horrors of ww2 and mention some of the cool stuff the nazis and or hitler did while in office before the war. It just doesn’t make sense.

And I didn’t say ANYTHING about agreeing with the videos call for cutting donations. But if you want to project another opinion on me because you designated me as your object of Christian wrath so be it.

“Kill the gays” and “Refuse to help the gays even though we are supposedly a non-profit charitable organization” are not a stance on gay marriage. You’re the one who keeps binging “views on gay marriage” into this.

But if you want to run with “religious views on gay marriage”, you can believe whatever you want. What should not be allowed to happen is for those religious beliefs to dictate (unconstitutionally) who is allowed to be married under the law. Churches can even refuse to provide religious weddings. What they should not be able to do is cause government to refuse a marriage license to gay people.

So, that automatically erases all the bad they do?
They are discriminating against people.
They hold poor people hostage in order to further their own political agenda. And yes, saying that you’ll close down your centres and help if the government doesn’t obey your rules is keeping poor people hostage.
Where’s your concern there?
Also, contrary to popular belief, saying that you shouldn’t support the SA doesn’t mean you’re pro people starving in the streets, especially not if you’re also naming alternative organisations that do good without discriminating.
BTW, logically any organisation that is purely about charity will be more efficient than any organisation that is about charity + religion because it won’t waste time and money on a religious and political agenda.

This is a tough one for me. As a Christian, and from a historical / evolutionary standpoint of there being no positives, I agree 100% (*historical*, because our race I think as at a place where we do not need every single members’ genes to improve). But I don’t agree with that kind of discrimination. I really don’t care or want to know who most people rub their squishy bits with. I can appreciate that they are trying to follow what they believe is God’s will, but they are forgetting the most important parts of the
“The greatest commandment is: Love the Lord your God with all your heart. The second is like it: love your neighbor as yourself.”
It’s a shame that so many people that are so strong on EITHER side of an argument give such a bad reputation with similar beliefs but a completely different approach to practicing.

More atheist diatribe being forced down the throat of people who do not believe in atheist values but are nonetheless having it forced down their throat.

The salvation army is as YOU mentioned a church organization, a christian organization, an organization whose morals do not allow homosexuality as a lifestyle. Yet here is an atheist tryingn to force their values down the throat of the christian people.

Yet when the Christians force it down their throat, they get their panties in a twist.

You atheist are all hypocrites.

I’m not a christian, but if you don’t want them forcing their ethics down your throat, why are you forcing yours down theirs?

I don’t know if your comment was a reply or not, or who it would be to if it was. But in regards to your statements:

Basically you need to understand that “atheists” and “gays” are not the only people for gay marriage. You seem to lack an understanding that the church and religion are NOT the same thing.

Your most ignorant assumption however, has to be that the atheist and gay communities are “forcing their values down the throats of unwilling Christians, just like Christians do.”

Wow. Fighting a direct violation of separation of church and state in regards to anti-gay marriage laws, and being on wary of any group that supports these laws, religious or not, is NOT the same thing as forcing ones own ethics on another group.

More atheist diatribe being forced down the throat of people who do not believe in atheist values but are nonetheless having it forced down their throat.

How on earth is writing a blog post that says “don’t give to the salvation army because *list of good reasons*” forcing anything down anybody’s throat?
Nobody is forced not to give, you are free to spend your life’s savings on them.
And were you kidnapped and chained to a chair and forced to read this? Is it written on a courtroom wall or part of your government-paid education?
So, yeah, they’re a church who thinks that being gay is an abomination unto Nuggan and we say if you support human rights for all people you shouldn’t support an organistation that is in favour of discrimination.
But again, that’s the runaway concept of free sppech: If you dare to criticise us for the hatefull stuff we say you’re prooooooooosecuting us.

I can see if you were trying to raise awareness to the fact that there isn’t really any progressive point to this article, no “moving forward”, no plan. But to just openly support disinterest in politics and the actions of corporations is just… well I’d rather not use profanities on a public site.

What people do with big money has consequences, and staying informed is the simplest and best way to fight oppression.

I’m not saying pulling the funding is the best course of action either, but while many would suffer from it, it would force change if everyone did it. How about until you come up with a constructive idea, just be quiet.

Never supporting this stupid charity. So many other charities do so much for less fortunate people without pushing their outdated beliefs on others and holding back growth in society as a whole. Fucking bigots.

This is just insane. Lets not give money to a group who gives homeless people food and shelter. I guarantee that people are not turned away from aid because they are homosexual. If they choose not to allow open homosexuals into their church as members, that is their prerogative. There are bigger issues than the Salvation Army not allowing homosexuals into their church. Maybe look at the bigger picture to see how many people the Salvation Army helps by annoying the crap out of at in front of any store front.

Nick is either blissfully ignorant of what charity actually is, or he is disconnected from reality. Or he’s a shill.

Charity is aid or help given without any conditions other than need. What the Salivating Army does is not charity. It is blackmail.

The poor are told, “We’ll give you help if you participate in and take our religion, and if you meet our criteria of who deserves help”. Those who won’t be forced into religion are refused any help.

Imagine if a man saw a car broken down in a desert, a woman driver desperate for help, and the man said: “I’ll give you lift back to town…if you sleep with me first.”

Would anyone call that “charity” or “help”? No, we wouldn’t. We’d call it what it is, attempted rape. The Slavenation Army attempts to do the exact same thing to the poor, preying upon them at their most desperate.

Real charity is given without conditions on who receives it nor on who they are. The only criteria for receiving charity should be need.

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The comments by the Australian Salvo officer are just shocking and completely unacceptable. I’m not supporting them in the future. Secular charities or religious non-discriminatory charities will get my donations instead. Thank God for the Salvos? Yeah, right. Thanks for sharing this.

Commentors who seem to think the salvation army is so noble please read that. I will save my money for organizations who truly care for ALL people.

I have been turned away from community services I badly needed as a trans woman and it nearly killed me. Telling me their right to hate is more important then me and my communities right to live just makes me angry.

Does the Salvation Army disagree with gay marriage? Yes, they most definitely do. Does the Salvation Army discriminate people by not helping gay people in need? It doesn’t say, and I’m sure that’s not the policy, although I may stand corrected.

Does the Bible say people who look at people with lustful intent and fantasize outside of marriage are sinning? Yes, it does. Does the Salvation Amry discriminate said people when it comes to helping? Most definitely not, because then they wouldn’t be able to help anyone, not even themselves.

Now with this, whether you support the Salvation Army or not is still up to the individuals, but I don’t like these blog postings because it’s misleading. It says the Salvation Army doesn’t think of gay people as equal. Where in the world did that come from? Does the Salvation Army say “we are a righteous group of people by our own merit and we think of people who sin as below equal?” No. If anything the Salvation Army knows that they are sinners, and there’s no “worse sin” in the eyes of God, and they too would be in the same position as married gay people, if not for their faith.

The fact that they politically disagree with legalizing gay marriage does not mean they think of gay people as people who deserve discrimination and persecution, although I’m sure there are some who do think that in the Salvation Army and elsewhere, and that is the wrong heart attitude. Protesting against legalizing what they think is sin is practicing their freedom of opinion, not the same as discrimination.

The Salvation Army believes that part of being a good person means identifying homosexuality as ‘sin’ – I mean, when they prostrate themselves on the old sinner’s bench, the message they are sending isn’t really one of humility, it’s ‘we demand that you feel the same guilt we do over things that you currently think are okay.’

Also, once you make public statements and advocacy about gay marriage, you have already contributed to discrimination against homosexuals.

I’m not a Christian. I identify as a None but my family is Jewish. If I were to go out looking for help, I’d be turned away from many religious charities since they make attending their religious services a condition of aid. For people who would tell me to just fake it, how would Christians like it if, in order to get help, they had to sing the praises of Zeus and Apollo and Athena first, and then got some food? It would be an obvious power game, find some hungry people and get them to praise your god for a while , then feed them.

Nobody who plays games like that is offering charity, they’re just using it as a recruitment tool. If you can’t offer assistance without trying to convert people, then I don’t want to support your charity.

As for atheist values shoved down anybody’s throat, I don’t know of any secular charity that demands proof of non-belief before they give you aid nor that demands that you state religious non-belief as a condition for obtaining further aid. The basic thing is that if an organization is going to exclude a class of law abiding citizens from its assistance, it’s clearly not such a great organization to support. If the Salvation Army had an open policy against Muslims, how okay would that sound?

This blogpost and the many comments by ignorant do-goodders are one of the reasons why you should never ever as an atheist give money to any religious charity at all (and before the godbots draw their breath about how I’d rather let people starve, hold it and read to the end):
They take your money for which you worked hard and which you decided should help poor people and myke it look like they are the ones who spend millions on helping the poor. They’re not paying it out of their pocket any more than the Vatican is selling some art to pay for “their” charities: It’s the people who donate who pay for this, but then it gets turned into them actually spending it and them blackmailing secular government in a threat to withdraw their help.
Not giving to the Salvation Army or catholic charities doesn’t mean you let the children starve if you give to a secular charity instead.
That’s why I’m donating to the local Charles Dickens Society that organizes gifts for poor kids like coloured pencils, teddybears and warm scarves instead of doing Christmas in a shoebox where I’m not allowed to put in anything that is not deemed christian enough and where my donation will be used to further christian prosletizing. I’m still helping the children.*
Also, a secular charity will always be more effective because no resources will be wasted on their religious agenda.

*Funny enough, Christmas in a shoebox asks for my gift AND a donation of 6€ to make one child happy while the Charles Dickens Society asks me for 3-7€ for gift plus shipping to make one kid happy…

In 1986, the Salvation Army of New Zealand assisted in a petition drive against a law to repeal the country’s ban on homosexuality.

This was a defining political and social event for me. prior to this I had a grudging respect for the Salvation Army. They did unpleasant, practical and thankless work that others didn’t. I lived opposite one of their major centres where they ran drug and alcohol rehab, taught people to read, cook and budget.
Homosexuality has no negative impact on my life at all. I could see no reason back in the ’80s for it to be illegal and I see no reason now to deny equal rights to gay people.

I was pretty annoyed and disgusted by the Salvation Army organising an supporting the petition as they did. What freaked me out though was the day they presented the petition to Parliament.

When you see boxes of petition papers being carried up the steps of Parliament, between rows of polished young things bearing the National flag while wearing quasi-military uniform with a brass band playing. Well, you can imagine the comparisons I was drawing. Added to that the tenor of the speeches was truly sickening. Bigotry, intolerance and jingoism. A rare and unwelcome thing in New Zealand. The Salvation Army lost a lot of respect and support at that time. I swore I would never support them in any way and have met many people who take the same stance for the same reason.

Well, you see no need for any justification for not giving to any other charity beyond “I don’t feel like it”. And yet when people give actual, substantive reasons for why a particular charity ought to be avoided, that’s somehow beyond the pale? How is it that having no real reason at all to pass a charity by is acceptable, yet having actual reasons to avoid them is unacceptable? This makes no sense.

“However, I also know a number of people whom the SA has helped get off the street, or overcome a heroin addiction. This is something that certainly comes into play when I choose to give to the SA over, for example, Goodwill.”

That’s great. The argument of “they helped some people” is equally applicable to pretty much any charity out there. You know these people personally? Cool; other people know people personally who were helped by other charities. Nothing about this argument really makes any charity stand out above any other.

“In reality, for many people, the decision of which charity to give to is as much a relational one than an empirical calculation (whether that calculation is quantitative or qualitative, i.e. a moral judgment). In encouraging a universal giving rejection of the SA in your blog post, you don’t acknowledge this intricacy.”

Correct – I ignore it. This is intentional. If people are more focused on whatever warm fuzzy sensations they can get from merely feeling like they’re doing good, without any actual consideration for the good or harm they may be supporting, that’s their problem. It shouldn’t be a criteria on which we decide whether to support an organization. We should be able to be more rational than that, and take actual relevant reasons into account – not just whether something makes us feel good regardless of whether we’re actually doing good.

I WANT TO FIND OUT WHO I WAS PREDETERMINED TO BE, I DON’T WANT TO BE LIVING A LIE!!!!!

i was reading on some “born this way” website about someone – let’s call him “randolph” – who was trying to justify his being “born gay” with a picture of him as a small boy wearing a female’s hat on his head. “the cat was already out of the bag,” he wrote. i will ask if it’s true that a life is set in stone at such a young age, because i am living a lie if it is true. for crying out loud, i enjoy the way malt-candy tastes today but i was sickened and revolted by the taste as a boy. what is the meaning of this, i thought the cat was out of the bag that i hated malt-candy! WHY WERE MY PREDETERMINED TASTES CHANGED, I HAD HATED MALT-CANDY SINCE BIRTH AND NOW I LOVE IT.

my parents have a picture of me being on a soccer team at age 5 or 6 – was the cat was out of the bag that i was born to be a soccer player? soccer once attracted me like joni attracted chachi, so am i supposed to be a soccer player and am i denying my true identity by not playing sports? i would like to learn the truth of who i was predetermined to be, because the last thing i want to do is deny myself of my true wants and desires simply because those wants and desires were discouraged through other peoples’ negative opinions of my being a sportsman.

i have recently become somewhat of an incessant player of slot machines. i’m somewhat entranced when i’m seeing and hearing the slots – slots attract me like honey does to a bee, and it’s so difficult for me to keep from wrapping my hand around the big long pole and jerking it down to get the slot machine ejaculating out money. my mind is in a different place when i am faced with a row of sinfully-attractive slot machines, they are such a temptation. i kind of want a psychologist or other head-therapist to help me become the non-gambling person i want to be., i don’t want to see slot machines the way i do and i don’t want to be attracted to slot machines the way i am, but i’m sure it is illegal for psychologists to change peoples’ orientations. if gambling comes so naturally to me, if i am oriented to the gambling world, then i have a gamblers’ orientation and i fear a psychologist would get in trouble for helping me change my orientation. i fear i will just have to accept having been oriented to gambling.

i wouldn’t think i was born a gambler, as i had never wanted to gamble before age 37, but maybe my inner gambler was stifled by christians who made me believe that gambling is bad. maybe the choices i’ve made in life were a product of christians’ values which just didn’t orient me to gambling. maybe i was actually born a gambler, maybe my true identity was stifled by christians, but even if it wasn’t then i’m sure i could find some “gay rights” groups to help me believe that i was always just afraid to proclaim the truth about myself.

by age five, i was imitating john travolta singing “greased lightning,” so i wonder if actors are predetermined. i memorized “ferris bueller’s day off” at 13, i memorized “dirty dancing” at 14, i acted in high school plays, was i born to be an actor? i joined the soccer team at about the same time as i emulated john travolta, am i supposed to be an actor with a hobby of playing soccer? am i supposed to be a soccer player with a hobby of acting? i guess i was born with so much knowledge and so many interests and desires already formed inside my brain, that it’s hard to determine who i was meant to be.

i’ve had a love for dogs since i was 8 years old, i’ve always wanted them to be protected from harm and to live a happy life, i’ve always seen dogs of the world through the eyes of a caretaker – was i born this way? was i born to be an animal-rights activist? am i predetermined to be a soccer player with a hobby of acting, doing a weekend job at the local animal shelter while spending my free time giving in to temptation at casinos? i’ll assume that this is just what randolph would assume – he’d maintain that my behaviors should reflect my childhood. he’d maintain that i was born with lusts for acting and gambling, though my gambling-lust was stifled by christians until my30s, and that it is self-denial not to act on my lusts. he’d also maintain that i destroyed a part of myself because i had let other people stifle my desire to play soccer so much that it doesn’t exist anymore.

i’d wonder if randolph would maintain that i was born a dog-lover, since i’ve loved dogs even before i started loving members of my own gender. i don’t trust randolph, i don’t even know if he’s a psychologist, so i want to ask the following question to someone who knows something about predetermined lives: who am i, why am i attracted to slot machines if other men are not, why do i now like malt-candy when i’ve hated it for as long as i can remember? and why does my mind process images of slot machines and flavors of malt-candy differently than the way other mens’ minds do?

I WANT TO FIND OUT WHO I WAS PREDETERMINED TO BE, I DON’T WANT TO BE LIVING A LIE!!!!!

president obama has spoken, and i know that life is not what i make of it. i know that life is like a business and that one person is not responsible for either, therefore i want to live the life i was supposed to live and not the life i’ve made for myself.

I WANT TO FIND OUT WHO I WAS PREDETERMINED TO BE, I DON’T WANT TO BE LIVING A LIE!!!!!

Whoa, I was with you until you started talking about homosexuality as analogous to gambling. I mean, it’s definitely true that people who point to androgynous childhood behavior as proof that they have always been homosexual, transsexual, et cetera are just falling prey to a sort of confirmation bias. Plenty of kids display a certain amount of androgyny or what some might deem transgender behavior as children because a lot of gender roles are purely cultural and they haven’t absorbed those cultural gender roles fully yet. However, homosexuality and transsexuality are not about gender roles. Homosexuality is about being romantically attracted to the same gender while transsexuality is the feeling of being in the wrong sexed body.

Comparing these things to gambling, however, is a bit disingenuous. First of all, gambling addiction has very real consequences that can ruin or at least seriously inconvenience a person’s life, irrespective of how much the community supports gambling. Gambling often ends up costing people a lot of money, because the games are usually rigged for the house, with them giving you just enough wins so you think you might actually make a profit, but in actuality you end up losing more money than you make over the course of your life. There are a lucky few who do make a fortune gambling, but these people are very rare, and they of course have to stop gambling if they don’t want to squander their winnings away because they’re probably not going to make another killing like that again. Being gay, however, has no adverse effects significantly different from being straight aside from being jeered at or lynched by bigots. Being transsexual does have adverse effects in that you feel like you’re in the wrong body which would, of course, feel horrible. However, there’s a treatment for that which is generally some level of physical transition to get one’s body in accordance with one’s mental map. If there were a pill to change the mental map, I’m sure there would be those who would decide on using that to feel comfortable in their bodies, instead, though I would say if someone still would rather change their bodies rather than their minds you should let them. Mainly because there’s no reason anyone should give a damn what gender a person chooses to present as. Also, as a person who is working on his Master’s in Psychology right now, I’ve had an opportunity to read up on a lot of the peer reviewed literature, as well, and I can tell you that while there has certainly been success in treating gambling and other forms of addiction, there has been absolutely no literature with any sort of valid or reliable measures or sampling methods which have suggested that therapy works in changing a person’s orientation or internal gender.

Maybe you guys should do some research before judging such a great and caring organization. I am a faithful salvationist, have been my whole life, and never have I once seen any kind of discrimination in any of the Salvation Army’s ministry. I am sorry you all feel that the Salvation Army would judge any LGBT, but I know for a fact that that is not what the Salvation Army is about. The bible directly quotes that it is wrong to practise homosexuality, not to be homosexual.

One of William Booth’s (SA founder) well known quotes says “While women weep, as they do now, I’ll fight; while children go hungry, as they do now I’ll fight; while men go to prison, in and out, in and out, as they do now, I’ll fight; while there is a drunkard left, while there is a poor lost girl upon the streets, while there remains one dark soul without the light of God, I’ll fight, I’ll fight to the very end!”. This describes the very essence of the Salvation Army right down to the core. So please, don’t judge the Salvation Army when you don’t even know if what you’re saying is true. Thanks and God bless.

Everyone is entitled to their thoughts and opinions, regardless of whatever anyone else thinks. However it appears to me ‘Zinnia’ that you have an axe to grind as you are in fact male! I think if you are going to have a go at an organisation such as the Salvation Army, you should at least declare your interests and at least be honest about where your coming from in posting your comments. Poor journalism at the very least.

Sooooo predictable KThxBai, predictable … tell you what I’ll check out the fundamentalist site if you promise to see a Psychiatrist. Fundamentalist enough for you?? You guys, always so trigger happy. Sad.

Actually, I have been seeing one for a number of months- as, I suppose, has Lauren if she is transitioning within the U.S. (And AFAIK, she is)- as it is required before starting HRT. (Sorry Lauren, if I made a wrong assumption as to your transition).

Besides the fact that GID has been removed from the APA DSM (-V, I do believe?), we also see that Gender Dysphoria is listed (as a Dysphoria, not any form of Disorder) and the only solution currently is gender transition.

Furthermore, I have seen a doctor who helps moderate my hormone levels (you have to be prescribed the hormone treatment, unless you self-medicate, which I never recommend) and has done a very thorough examination of me, both mentally and physically, in addition to the Psychiatrist I have been seeing. And before you ask, I have asked second opinions from four other Psychiatrists, both in my current state and in my home state regarding everything, and all have given me a clean bill of health besides Gender Dysphoria.

Furthermore, in a matter of days, I should be legally recognized as female by the state government, given I have had a psychologist evaluate me and sign a petition to the state to change my legal gender.

So, yeah- maybe do some research before making such comments, yeah?

And quick to trigger- I admit my first comment was unthoughtful and came quickly out of an offense that’s sent directly to someone almost exactly like me. So yes, when we are being insulted, we will fire back.

And what’s sad is that we still have people that -try- to trigger us. That, rather than try to understand what science we know about transgender individuals, as well as how the entire system works in regards to transition (which is not universal, but shows a good idea of what we go through), and try to lessen the amount of bullying and disrespect that we face, they choose to purposefully say things to make us upset and then complain about how we actually do so.

The waste application of mind areas in this chapter are all located along or near the green river, with the exception of Hibernate ridge WSA. The Uintah and Ouray Indian Reserve separates Hibernate ridge WSA from the green river gallery. If you look at a Utah high-road map, you’ll notice that this unbroken circle appears roadless. I-70 runs along the meridional edge, with US 191 to the occident and northerly. In places, Devastation canyon (cut by the green river) is 3,000 to 5,000 feet deep. This cragged ravine and its tributaries are not the only outermost terrain that boundary passage-way via paved highways. The 250-mile-drawn out book Cliffs divide the civilized nature from this expansion of waste application of mind areas. frequently, bound lines between waste application of mind areas are {uneven|cragged|cragged|scraggy|scabrous|rough} filth roads proper for jeeps and other 4WD vehicles with heaven-kissing clearance. This draw guide includes descriptions of Rtrail canyon to Joe Springs.

Wow I posted here forever ago only to find out it’s still kicking. May have something to do with the supreme court and whatnot.

Anyway, I’m only posting because something someone was saying earlier just bugged the hell out of me.

On the topic of predeterminism, or whatever he was going on about, I would like to point out that he gets several things flat out wrong while misrepresenting other things. First off, there is no such thing as that, and the scientific community is far more fond of a term called predisposition. Predisposition does not suppose that you will or will not be anything or anybody, simply that there are certain things that your genetic makeup and or life experiences will predispose you too. For instance, my father and mother were both alcoholics. My father committed suicide, and my mother raised me and my siblings in an abusive household. These things alone predispose me both genetically and mentally towards depression and addiction. Both of which I suffer from greatly. In contrast my sister who does suffer from some disorders undiagnosed, has a loving bf and a fantastic job working with astronauts. My brother suffers from anger issues and addiction, but has been clean for years and raising a beautiful family. While I rue the day that I ran my car into a guard rail and used the airbag to pierce my lungs only to realize it wasn;t working and stab myself in the neck slicing an artery… Only to by some divine freaking intervention be saved and completely fine.. After losing a little over half the blood in my body…. whatever… My point here is that while we all have predispositions, no one is pre determined to be anything.

That being said there is something more complex at the heart of someones sexual identity. We haven’t figured out exactly what’s going on, but to contest someones feelings that they knew they were homosexual at a young age because, “I now LOVE MALTBALLS”…. IS APPALLING!!!

What is it you were trying to prove? or disprove? You made nothing clear other than you are quite clearly agitated. I’d say if anyone is pre determined to be anybody, you are to be an asshole.

Oh and thanks Zinnia, or well Lauren or whatever you prefer to be called, for keeping up the drumbeat of sound reasoning and logically presented and argumented ideas! (keep being cute >.<)

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this article is discusting!! Not every Salvation Army church is like that, its obvious it just the AMERICAN Salvation Armys, the salvation army in my county has openly gay church members that attend services with their partners, and are welcomed with open arms, its discraceful that every Salvation Army world wide is being attacked because of a few AMERICAN Salvation Armies that are against gays rights

[…] notes to Salvation Army chuggers because we depended on their charity once. The Salvation Army has campaigned extensively against LGBT rights, including for recriminalisation of homosexuality, and denied help to queer couples on the […]

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