Pit$Bull wrote:Opinions are liked a$$holes, everybody has one. My opinion is that's 'what's good for the goose, is good for the gander' so why is it that some folks get their butts chewed from one end to the other and others do not. This breeding was kept secret until someone 'spilled the beans' seemingly just to stir the pot and if certain folks would be up front then topics like this would never get out of control.

Just my .02

So, Bob... you KNOW I really like you, but... I disagree w/you on this one. This breeding wasn't kept a secret, per say... I'm pretty sure Alyssa posted and talked about it on other boards. I tend not to frequent any of them very often, but her and I *talk* pretty frequently, and I knew Teeny-Beans was pregnant weeks ago.However, I didn't feel that it was MY place to announce or mention it here, if Alyssa - being the indisputable owner of the pregnant lady in question - didn't post it on PBT first.After reading the whole topic at least twice, I now understand her reasons.I'm also not quite sure WHY there is so much controversy... Teeny isn't some mutt off the street who accidentally got impregnated, as far as I know ALL the puppies are already spoken for, and excellent (health) care for Mom and babies is a given... isn't that a HUGE step up from being a byb??? What am I missing? I don't always agree w/things people do on this board. But sometimes my own personal opinions/beliefs take a backseat to my willingness to support a friend. Alyssa happens to be one of those friends, and that's why I'm hoping for happy and healthy puppies. All the "politics" don't much matter to me.

I also happen to think that, on the whole, everyones input (other than the snippy-ness) IS very helpful - pros and cons alike.I don't know much about "real" breeders, having been owned by byb dogs my whole adult life. I did learn a few things from this thread, and so I'm glad that some people stuck to the actual facts (like explaining health testing, and so forth) of the whole situation.

No-one is obligated to spill the beans on a public forum they happen to belong to, regardless of what the reasons may be. Doesn't make them a "bad person", or a "puppy peddler", or irresponsible.

As a matter of fact - I have gotten some advise from some very well-meaning friends on this forum in the past... and I chose not to listen to them. We're still friends (I think ), and no harm was done.

Whether people agree w/this breeding or not - I think I can speak for everyone when I say that we all do wish the best for Teeny and her new puppies... right?

I eat meat, I actually enjoy very rare steak. Would it be appropriate for me to go to a vegetarian board and post about my plate of dead deer? No, of course not. It would not fit the culture of the board. Could I be a member of that board and leave off my fondness for all things dead and meaty? Sure I could.

Think about it.

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

WOW, this has come quite a ways. I'd like to respond first off, to the hip issue. I have stated my opinion on OFA/PENNHIP, to Alyssa, and I'll state it here. When it comes to bull breeds, you are PRONE to hip issues, its in the breed. It will never be "bred out" 100%,that is a fact I understand, and accept. To move forward from that and feel wrapped in a blanket of the false security of an OFA/PENNHIP result, is foolish. I feel that there are far too many variables in the tests i.e. positioning, xray equipment, the tech doing the xray, right down to which vet you have "judging" the xray, etc. to produce a consistant reliable result every single time. I have owned an AKC registered dog with ofa certified parents, that had to be put down at 2 years of age due to severe displaysia. Maybe this left a bitter taste, but until proven otherwise I'll happily and confidently stand by my personal opinion on this issue.

Now for the breeding issue. I have read as the majority of you folks have ripped Alyssa for breeding Teeny, and gone on about the health issues, yet few of you come forward with solid knowledge of the breed, or its history. Yes, it was started in 1986, making it a very "new" breed. It has not been without its issues. These lines have been produced from essentially the same yard for 15 years. They have been selectively bred, with the intention of producing the best possible specimin. There are 3 lines focussed on, going back to the yard of the founder of the breed. Athena is a sixth generation line bred pup. The line has proven its consistancy, its health, and its progression. As those who know me ,know that I do not glorify my dogs, nor do I lie about them (contrary to my ramblings on terrific pets). The ONLY issue that Ive seen or heard of in this line, is 2 dogs had ACL issues. This as any large dog owner or fancier will know, is also something they are prone to. I have always said first and foremost when I send out pups, is for the new owner to let me know any problems they have. All of my dogs are in homes that are accesible to me, at any time. As I am accesible to them for any reason. We, Mike and myself, offer free training, the return of dogs FOR ANY REASON, AT ANY TIME, and have even bought dogs back, when we werent even the seller, to ensure they are cared for. I dont feel the need to run down a full list of "credentials" but I do feel this goes against the backyard breeder mantra that seems to get tagged on anyone doing a breeding that one may not UNDERSTAND.

I will also say that Alyssa was and remains strong in her convictions, she is a strong advocate for testing, titling, and proper feeding of dogs. To alienate her for this breeding seems unfair, and I'll say kind of childish. She is being walked through this process, not because were forcing her, but because she wants to learn, and is openminded. No breeding program is perfect, they ALL have their risks and pitfalls. It all boils down to the breeder admitting the faults, correcting them through breeding, and moving forward with the breed. If people dont want or dont have the ability to grasp that, then I truly feel you are missing out on some great dogs, that are the result of people willing to put in the time to produce quality canines that give no reason for the owner to want to dump them in a shelter.

With that said, the litter will be whelped at my house, Ill be wearing pants, and any more "bitterness" or belitteling can be directed right this way. BTW, thanks for letting me post.

Nobody is alienating Alyssa. Nor has there been any belittling in this thread. Our members have all been very respectful, for which I am appreciative.

I understand that the breeder's code of ethics is obviously very different for Alapahas than it is for pit bulls. The majority of us here are dealing with pit bulls though, and that's what we are going by. I'm a firm believer in health testing (I believe PennHip has very strict positioning/judging standards, so it's not arbitrary like OFA), and I also believe that any dog that is going to be bred should be titled, not just proven. Until there are titles, I don't consider a dog proven. My dog was biting a sleeve after just a few minutes of "work," but that doesn't make her proven and good breeding material. Me taking her to competitions and winning titles would make her proven.

Like I said, I know Alapaha people have different standards. I hope Teeny has an easy birth and healthy pups.

"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Nobody is alienating Alyssa. Nor has there been any belittling in this thread. Our members have all been very respectful, for which I am appreciative.

All of them? Really? Like the ones who were behind "outing" this litter without allowing me the courtesy to do it myself? Like the one who called me a puppy peddler on a whim? Is name calling now allowed? Can I now run around PBT calling people cuntface just 'cause I feel like it?

Sorry I DO feel attacked by some of the members here, and for a board that I have called "home" for so many years, it does alienate me.

I'm just happy to have my friends in real life, and I adore my Alapaha Mafia. We fight, we discuss, we often disagree, but I have NEVER once felt disrespected in the way that a few members have treated me in the past few days.

"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France

Seriously I would think twice now before ever posting about a breeding on this board even if it was done the "proper" way. IMO regardless of how it was done someone is going to find something wrong with it. This is very much a rescue kind of board and not everyone here is okay with breeding period. As far as belittling Alyssa was called or it was insinuated that she was a puppy peddler/ BYB. I think that is pretty harsh. Also ppl said some things about Jamie and Mike and how they do things. Whether you agree or not you dont know them, you dont know how they breed dogs and you dont know how much effort they have put into IMPROVING this breed. Maybe before ppl go running there mouths they should do some research. I couldnt be happier with my dog that I got from Jamie and Mike. He is everything that I wanted in a pup! He works, hes social, hes HEALTHY and any questions I have had about him I have been able to call at anytime and have gotten help. As far as Im concerned they are the BEST when It comes to this breed and I wouldnt get an Alapaha any place else.

I feel that I know Alyssa pretty well, well enough that we've stayed at each others houses several times bringing our entire crew of dogs with us. I'd say I've known her about five years now.

Alyssa isn't your typical dog owner, Alyssa lives and breathes dogs. She has a great deal of knowledge about canine medicine, health, behavior, nutrition and training. I would say that of all the knowledgeable dog people that I know, Alyssa is in the top five.

That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that a lot of thought and weighing of the pro's and cons went into this before Teeny was bred. If Alyssa felt that this breeding would have been harmful to Teeny or would not have furthered the Alapaha breed, she would not have allowed it. Period.

I was once very anti-breeding of dogs while shelter animals died. That changed when I spent two years going through local dog shelters and rescues looking for a Pit Bull or Bully breed that could pass the health & temperament tests in order to be a service dog. We probably spent in the neighborhood of $4,000 health testing dogs that had great temperaments and working ability, only to have them fail some part of the health testing. I finally found Birdie in the summer of 2005, a rescue that was being fostered by a dog trainer.

I now know the value of a good breeder who puts the integrity of breed first and foremost, and I've learned the value of breeders who breed dogs that are good working dogs. So in time, my opinion has changed as well.

I love Pit Bulls, they are my heart breed, but I know that in 15 or 20 years this breed won't be able to meet my needs as a service dog because of their size. I'll need a taller dog that is strong enough to bear some of my weight and balance me. With that in mind, I've been looking at and learning about American Bulldogs and Alapahas as breeds that may have the working potential to do what I need them to do. Shepherds and Retrievers are not options for me (Sorry Katrina & Joyce) so I plan on keeping a close eye on Teeny's litter and Teeny herself so I can learn more about this breed.

Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men ~ General George S. Patton, Jr.

She taking all the stars down from her sky to hang them up someplace new, where there's better weather and the sky's a different blue. ~ Autumn Fields

I just want to clarify for anyone who may be reading this forum to learn about the breed, that pitbulls generally have excellent temperments and are being used more and more as service dogs and police dogs.

(Just wanted to clarify that so no one misconstrues the above post as suggesting that it took the above poster 2 years to find a pitbull with a good temperment).

DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.

Noel didn't say anything in any way about it taking her two years to find a pit bull with a good temperament. She clearly stated that the dogs were falling apart in the health testing. Though, I'm sure she probably ran into plenty with temperament issues as well..

justme wrote:WOW, this has come quite a ways. I'd like to respond first off, to the hip issue. I have stated my opinion on OFA/PENNHIP, to Alyssa, and I'll state it here. When it comes to bull breeds, you are PRONE to hip issues, its in the breed. It will never be "bred out" 100%,that is a fact I understand, and accept. To move forward from that and feel wrapped in a blanket of the false security of an OFA/PENNHIP result, is foolish. I feel that there are far too many variables in the tests i.e. positioning, xray equipment, the tech doing the xray, right down to which vet you have "judging" the xray, etc. to produce a consistant reliable result every single time. I have owned an AKC registered dog with ofa certified parents, that had to be put down at 2 years of age due to severe displaysia. Maybe this left a bitter taste, but until proven otherwise I'll happily and confidently stand by my personal opinion on this issue.

There are no guarantees, I agree. And there is some "judging" that goes on, within the OFA community (less so with Penn Hips, in my opinion). I work closely with some bull dog breeders at our hospital, and you are absolutely right... bully breeds absoultely have a propencity for dysplasia. All the more reason, in my opinion, to NOT breed a dog that has subluxation (and I am not necessarily referring to Teeny, I just mean in general ). For example, 90% of the Frenchies I xray have some degree of dysplasia, and that is "accepted" in that breed. No where does it say that a SUBLUXATED hip is breeding worthy. Dysplasia and subluxation are different. Shallow acetabulum, possibly flattened femoral head... bully breeds can have it. Subluxation is not acceptable. Period. If that were the case for a dog in heat, my suggestion would have been to wait the additional MONTHS (we aren't talking years here... what is the rush??? ) to NOT breed that heat cycle and repeat the rads when there is no reason to suspect a false reading. And if you think that someone is not doing the procedure properly, then it is the responsibility of that breeder to find someone that they do trust. Not every vet (I take the majority of my own OFA rads for exactly this reason) is going to do it correctly. But it is worth it to get the right vet to do it, because although it doesn't offer a guarantee, genetics play a big role, and that is one factor, thankfully, we can control with our breeding programs.

Dysplasia is a multifactorial disease. No question about it. I can certainly understand your bitterness with the experience you have had. All the more reason, in my opinion, to eliminate as many factors as possible in contributing to this devastating disease and be sure that no one is passing along genetics in that mix.