"And what is the faculty of remembrance? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is endowed with memory, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago."

Indriya-Vibhanga sutta, (SN V 197-8 )

Definition of REMEMBRANCE1 : the state of bearing in mind2 a : the ability to remember

'Sati upaṭṭhāna' means that 'sati', having approached, stays on that object-support (ārammaṇa) (i.e. the representation (nimitta) which has arisen due to natural in-and-out-breath).

Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 2.509

I have already given you this quote. If you don't understand it, please do ask questions, otherwise there's not much I can do.Buddha's teaching is a non-trivial science, with some complicated notions.

Considering no one on here is a linguistics expert (and from the sight of some interpretations, not very skilled in reading comprehension [at least in english]), we shouldn't be making such outlandish statements saying certain people are right and others are wrong.

I agree that, since this forum is dedicated to Pali language, the claims should be substantiated by Pali glosses, and there should be no outlandish statements. And the posts should be read carefully.

As Mike wrote, "this area is intended to be for technical discussion of Pali, not discussion of meditative experience."

So by using 'remembering' we are just using the closest meaning we have in english. He has said it doesn't give the word justice or it's truest meaning.

Surely 'remembering' (instead of 'remembrance') does not fit well, for example, in:

"Just as in the last month of the hot season, when all the crops have been gathered into the village, a cowherd would look after his cows: While resting under the shade of a tree or out in the open, he simply maintains remembrance of 'those cows.' In the same way, I simply maintained remembrance of 'those mental qualities.'

"And what is the faculty of remembrance? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is endowed with memory, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago."

Indriya-Vibhanga sutta, (SN V 197-8 )

Definition of REMEMBRANCE1 : the state of bearing in mind2 a : the ability to remember

Yes "remember", "remembering", "remembrance" all have the same root word 'mem' which comes from the word meminisse which means to remember. It is also present in words like memory, memorandum, memento, etc..Remember:1: to bring to mind or think of again2 archaic a : bethink; b : remind3a : to keep in mind for attention or consideration b : reward 4: to retain in the memory 5: to convey greetings from6: record, commemorate

"And what is the faculty of remembering? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is endowed with memory, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago."

or

"And what is the faculty of awareness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is endowed with memory, highly meticulous, aware & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago."

or

"And what is the faculty of recollection? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is endowed with memory, highly meticulous, recollecting & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago."

see? Just because you put a word you like to use in the sutta does not mean that is the only way one can say it. I could go on and on with synonyms and be perfectly acceptable.

"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

Here a monk, having gone into the forest, or to the foot of a tree, or to an empty room, sits down cross-legged, keeps his body upright and setting mindfulness to the fore...

saying "..setting 'remembrance' to the fore.." makes no sense in english!!

"Setting mindfulness to the fore" doesn't make much sense as well.

sure it does! having your awareness of the present moment as priority. Bringing yourself to the present situation.

However, when we take into account the original meaning of 'parimukham', the commentarial explanation makes perfect sense:

As discussed elsewhere, parimukhaṃ is located in areas of the suttas without any mentioning of the breath or breathing so to interpret the use as not 'in front of the mouth or nose' (anatomical) is a valid one. However, if one chooses to use the commentarial view that is perfectly fine but it still needs rephrasing because "setting 'remembrance' to the front of the mouth or nose..." still does not make sense in english.

Dmytro wrote:

Considering no one on here is a linguistics expert (and from the sight of some interpretations, not very skilled in reading comprehension [at least in english]), we shouldn't be making such outlandish statements saying certain people are right and others are wrong.

I agree that, since this forum is dedicated to Pali language, the claims should be substantiated by Pali glosses, and there should be no outlandish statements. And the posts should be read carefully.

As Mike wrote, "this area is intended to be for technical discussion of Pali, not discussion of meditative experience."

I agree with the Pali glosses, however, since this is being interpreted in english I think rules of the english language should be adhered to. That includes the use of synonyms, and contextual understanding.

Also, if one is going to give a true definition of the term then I believe one has to take into account the way the term is used in all contexts, forms, and understandings...... including meditation practices.

Dmytro wrote:Surely 'remembering' (instead of 'remembrance') does not fit well, for example, in:

"Just as in the last month of the hot season, when all the crops have been gathered into the village, a cowherd would look after his cows: While resting under the shade of a tree or out in the open, he simply maintains remembrance of 'those cows.' In the same way, I simply maintained remembrance of 'those mental qualities.'

Remembrance really is a good translation for sati. In meditation, sati is remembering to stay aware/alert (sampajanna) of an aspect of experience in the present, e.g. remembering to stay aware of breathing as it is occurring in your experience.

John Peacock thinks "recollection of the present moment" is probably the best translation for sati and it is pretty good although sati does sometimes have to do with recollecting/remembering the past as shown above.

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

danieLion wrote:In MN 105 the Buddha "defines" mindfulness/sati as a probing knife with no mention of it's recollective function.

What say you to this, Dmytro?

Actually, it's just called a probe not a knife.

The surgeon would cut around the opening of the wound with a knife and then would probe for the arrow with a probe.

"I have given this simile to convey a meaning. The meaning is this: the wound stands for the six internal sense media; the poison, for ignorance; the arrow, for craving; the probe, for mindfulness; the knife, for noble discernment; the surgeon, for the Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened.

In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison. Of course, I suppose in this case sati may also be covering not just remembrance but also sampajanna whereas in more detailed descriptions the Buddha separates the two.

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

polarbuddha101 wrote: In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison.

Which would keep one's practice solely in the realm of conceptual thinking.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

danieLion wrote:In MN 105 the Buddha "defines" mindfulness/sati as a probing knife with no mention of it's recollective function.

What say you to this, Dmytro?

Actually, it's just called a probe not a knife.

The surgeon would cut around the opening of the wound with a knife and then would probe for the arrow with a probe.

"I have given this simile to convey a meaning. The meaning is this: the wound stands for the six internal sense media; the poison, for ignorance; the arrow, for craving; the probe, for mindfulness; the knife, for noble discernment; the surgeon, for the Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened.

In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison. Of course, I suppose in this case sati may also be covering not just remembrance but also sampajanna whereas in more detailed descriptions the Buddha separates the two.

In this case it says mindfulness is the probe.... Which means mindfulness, sati, is the tool used for investigation.

"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

polarbuddha101 wrote: In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison.

Which would keep one's practice solely in the realm of conceptual thinking.

That doesn't follow. This isn't the whole of the practice.

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

polarbuddha101 wrote: In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison.

Which would keep one's practice solely in the realm of conceptual thinking.

That doesn't follow. This isn't the whole of the practice.

It does follow from the small bit that you said, and, of course, it is not the whole of the practice.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

danieLion wrote:In MN 105 the Buddha "defines" mindfulness/sati as a probing knife with no mention of it's recollective function.

What say you to this, Dmytro?

Actually, it's just called a probe not a knife....

polarbuddha101 wrote:In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison. Of course, I suppose in this case sati may also be covering not just remembrance but also sampajanna whereas in more detailed descriptions the Buddha separates the two.

There's no mention of remembering. Where did you get that from? In fact, the text makes it clear that the probing is for current craving, not remembered craving.

polarbuddha101 wrote: In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison.

Which would keep one's practice solely in the realm of conceptual thinking.

danieLion wrote:There's no mention of remembering. Where did you get that from? In fact, the text makes it clear that the probing is for current craving, not remembered craving.

Right, but you have to remember that what you're trying to do is look for current craving. If you forget that you're probing for craving then you'll stop probing for it. In other words, you have to keep in mind that you're trying to look for and then abandon craving and follow the eightfold path.

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

danieLion wrote:This topic is not about the whole of the practice. It's about sati.

Yeah, and sati isn't just about remembering to see craving as an arrow, it's also remembering to follow the eightfold path and remembering to keep the breath in mind or remembering to stay focused on any of the other satipatthanas and remembering to put forth right effort in doing so.

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

danieLion wrote:This topic is not about the whole of the practice. It's about sati.

Yeah, and sati isn't just about remembering to see craving as an arrow, it's also remembering to follow the eightfold path and remembering to keep the breath in mind or remembering to stay focused on any of the other satipatthanas and remembering to put forth right effort in doing so.

But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the texts, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

tiltbillings wrote:But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.

Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts? Basically, what are the factors of sati as found in the suttas according to you? Because I think that what you consider to be sati I consider to be sati and sampajanna and that this may in fact be the only difference but I could be wrong so please elaborate if you would.

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

danieLion wrote:This topic is not about the whole of the practice. It's about sati.

Yeah, and sati isn't just about remembering to see craving as an arrow, it's also remembering to follow the eightfold path and remembering to keep the breath in mind or remembering to stay focused on any of the other satipatthanas and remembering to put forth right effort in doing so.

But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.

Exactly. What pb101's saying about sati could be said about most behaviors. Memory is a given. So if the Buddha wanted it to JUST mean memory or some synoym of memory I think he would have made it pliain that's what he was talking about. There's not much Nobility to merely not forgetting. It's not very profound to say not forgetting is important to The Path. Like...duhh!!! Thanks Captain Obvious. See what I mean?

tiltbillings wrote:But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.

Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?

No way. You'd have to ignore satipatthana, anapanasati, sammasati, etc....