Indeed, to give up being a customer of the best engine to then produce the worst results of its history for three years only to return as a customer of the currently third best engine was surely one of the most pointless strategic motoring decisions of all time. As several said at the time the chassis was the problem not the engine.

Only three upsides for this now for McLaren. Their driver pair line-up is stronger than it was three years ago and I say this having been a lifelong Button fan as only with him paired with Hamilton was it as good. Secondly their chassis team will have nowhere to hide when they have the same exact engine as Red Bull. Thirdly that rather strange alternate dimensional character known as Dennis has left the building unable to screw things up in the future.

This will also benefit Red Bull because they can now play off Renault against Honda ad-infinitum going forward with the loser being banished to the junior team going forward. Toro Rosso will also be cheaper to run with Honda's subsidy.

It will also benefit Renault because they now bring in another leading chassis into their customer stable.

Finally it will benefit Honda because they will save on Alonso's salary and have less pressure and more time to get up to speed.

I would really like for Honda to stick around and make their engine competitive but it's taken so long now and it's still not good. If a company like Honda can't make it work, shouldn't we start questioning the regs of these engines? They are so expensive and difficult to develop it scares away any new makers entering. Even Renaults engine is too poor to win races.

I'd say keep the V6, turbos and the kinetic recovery system, but ditch the heatrecovery. The brake-by-wire should be gone too but I heard they need that with the electric thingies (might not be a tecnical term) in order to make it work.

Edit: Voted 3-4 more years, but at the maximum 1 year to making it work with McLaren. I want to see them as a topteam again, but if Renault is the only option then I think they might aswell stick with Honda.

Very, very, VERY exciting news as now three different F1 web sites are reporting that McLaren has finally decided to drop Honda and go with Renault power next year. Finally! The long wait is over or should I say, the long nightmare is over for McLaren. This means Alonso stays and is a much happier man. Conversely, those at Torro Rosso are probably finding a new pit of despair, knowing that the worst engine in F1 history will power their cars next year.

Renault powered cars have been on the podium 6-7 times in a row this season. Here's hoping that Alonso sees that kind of success and more next year!

Hindsight makes switching to Honda the wrong call, there was nothing wrong with taking that decision at the time. It was and still is an engine formula and McLaren didn't want to just do what Red Bull have done and win a handful of races across 3 and a half seasons.

They wanted to be in a position to dominate and having works support offered that opportunity. They had built the best car the year before this decision so I don't really understand what those several would have been on about by saying the car was the problem not the engine.

Simply not wanting to be a customer was the motivation so they tried but Honda failed miserably. Now of course the landscape is different and they are desperate for a chance at mixing at the front before they lose their star driver,star technical staff and even more sponsors after 4 years in the doldrums so being a customer is better than more of the same with Honda.

Which was just not the case in 2013 a year after the best car, 6 out of 7 seasons fighting at the sharp end, a fuel supplier of their own, Title sponsor and other high profile more lucrative sponsors and a proven driver and technical staff.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I know this thread is about Honda not Renault, but I still have to express my concern of how the Renault engine is going to perform in a size zero box? Rads, trunking and heat dispersion, vibration and weight etc?

There is a lot of problems from the Honda engine, but as far as the Mclaren car is concerned, there is a lot of benefits too, which they will loose. They can probably forget size zero, and size 1, and design in some big ducts.

Hindsight makes switching to Honda the wrong call, there was nothing wrong with taking that decision at the time. It was and still is an engine formula and McLaren didn't want to just do what Red Bull have done and win a handful of races across 3 and a half seasons.

They wanted to be in a position to dominate and having works support offered that opportunity. They had built the best car the year before this decision so I don't really understand what those several would have been on about by saying the car was the problem not the engine.

Simply not wanting to be a customer was the motivation so they tried but Honda failed miserably. Now of course the landscape is different and they are desperate for a chance at mixing at the front before they lose their star driver,star technical staff and even more sponsors after 4 years in the doldrums so being a customer is better than more of the same with Honda.

Which was just not the case in 2013 a year after the best car, 6 out of 7 seasons fighting at the sharp end, a fuel supplier of their own, Title sponsor and other high profile more lucrative sponsors and a proven driver and technical staff.

The McLaren Mercedes was poor in 2014 and especially in 2013 with the bucking bronco chassis so clearly the chassis was at fault two clear seasons before the Honda switch. Not only that it was clear in 2014 that the Mercedes hybrid was the class of the field so it was always a risky gamble to give that proven engine up for a unproven size zero concept which looked great on PowerPoint but was abandoned completely two years on for a Mercedes clone. Basically Dennis rolled all the McLaren dice on some fantasy design and lost. Nothing was ever proven on any prototype and they were still having trouble marrying the car to the engine before the first season started. It's all very well trying to be a works engine team but really they should have taken the time and made sure everything was gelling before taking the plunge and giving up on Mercedes. Red Bull have proven over their entire history a customer engine is no impediment to success and they are proving it again against Renault.

i don't think anyone is applauding the honda effort. It is just evaluating prospects. We know Renault can build a good engine and so can Honda.

How do we know Honda can build a good engine? What possible evidence exists? What have I missed in the past 3 years?

There's no evidence that Renault will provide a good enough engine in these regulations either!

A whole bunch of podiums suggests that you are incorrect.

Not really. They may have the odd podium but are far from being WDC or WCC contenders. They're just the best of the rest, that's all. McLaren are claiming they want to fight for titles and Renault-powered cars haven't been close to doing that in the hybrid era. They are definitely the poor relation of the original manufacturers

i don't think anyone is applauding the honda effort. It is just evaluating prospects. We know Renault can build a good engine and so can Honda.

How do we know Honda can build a good engine? What possible evidence exists? What have I missed in the past 3 years?

There's no evidence that Renault will provide a good enough engine in these regulations either!

A whole bunch of podiums suggests that you are incorrect.

Not really. They may have the odd podium but are far from being WDC or WCC contenders. They're just the best of the rest, that's all. McLaren are claiming they want to fight for titles and Renault-powered cars haven't been close to doing that in the hybrid era. They are definitely the poor relation of the original manufacturers

No matter what McLaren are not going to go from being the laughing stock of Formula One to immediate WDC or WCC contenders. They need to first get onto the podium. Once consistent there they can think about race wins and THEN a championship. Renault powered cars have gotten onto the podium 6 or 7 straight races this year. Think about that.

But in both the above cases they were not fighting v the home team for most of the time.

Renault and Mercedes werent in those races?

Not as the finished article. Mclaren were the 'official' Merc team so had a head start right up until Merc started winning, and Renault were not really 'There' were they? they were going through the motions waiting to be sold etc and RBR were their main thrust. For a while when they became Lotus, on a good day there was not much in it.

How do we know Honda can build a good engine? What possible evidence exists? What have I missed in the past 3 years?

There's no evidence that Renault will provide a good enough engine in these regulations either!

A whole bunch of podiums suggests that you are incorrect.

Not really. They may have the odd podium but are far from being WDC or WCC contenders. They're just the best of the rest, that's all. McLaren are claiming they want to fight for titles and Renault-powered cars haven't been close to doing that in the hybrid era. They are definitely the poor relation of the original manufacturers

No matter what McLaren are not going to go from being the laughing stock of Formula One to immediate WDC or WCC contenders. They need to first get onto the podium. Once consistent there they can think about race wins and THEN a championship. Renault powered cars have gotten onto the podium 6 or 7 straight races this year. Think about that.

Sure, they can be the best bridesmaid with Renault power. But I was under the impression they wanted to be the bride? Never going to happen with Renault. If Red Bull, with all their resources and close relationship with Renault can't do it, there's next to no chance McLaren will. I'd be very happy if I'm wrong but I think McLaren will have cause to regret this. Red Bull are the ones coming out of this in the best position IMO.

Sure, they can be the best bridesmaid with Renault power. But I was under the impression they wanted to be the bride? Never going to happen with Renault. If Red Bull, with all their resources and close relationship with Renault can't do it, there's next to no chance McLaren will. I'd be very happy if I'm wrong but I think McLaren will have cause to regret this. Red Bull are the ones coming out of this in the best position IMO.

Again, McLaren are NEVER going to go from total laughing stock to championship team overnight. It's going to take time as well as an engine that doesn't blow up 1/6th into its rated life (as Vandorne's did today).

I find it absolutely hilarious that you say McLaren are never going to with with Renault, yet somehow expect Honda to take them all the way. Honda have proven themselves to be as feckless an engine maker as you can possibly imagine. Red Bull are clearly outperforming the factory Works Renault team.

Sure, they can be the best bridesmaid with Renault power. But I was under the impression they wanted to be the bride? Never going to happen with Renault. If Red Bull, with all their resources and close relationship with Renault can't do it, there's next to no chance McLaren will. I'd be very happy if I'm wrong but I think McLaren will have cause to regret this. Red Bull are the ones coming out of this in the best position IMO.

It's not going to happen with Honda either. They might only be bridesmaids with Renault but with Honda they haven't been invited to the wedding.

Renault power at least allows McLaren to challenge for podiums and the occasional race win as long as their chassis is as good as they think it is. After 52 races together getting both cars to the finish line seems to be an achievement for McLaren-Honda.

There are new engine regulations coming in 2021. In the short term McLaren's best bet is going with the best engine manufacturer possible to maximise prize money and sponsor income to allow for car development. Their choice is Honda, who frankly have been embarrassing in their 3 years to date, and who let's not forget spent a decade being mediocre in their last F1 stint, or Renault, who have powered 36 podiums in the hybrid era including 6 wins, and who in their 19 previous seasons as an engine supplier before the hybrid era powered 11 drivers titles and 12 constructors titles.

Sure, they can be the best bridesmaid with Renault power. But I was under the impression they wanted to be the bride? Never going to happen with Renault. If Red Bull, with all their resources and close relationship with Renault can't do it, there's next to no chance McLaren will. I'd be very happy if I'm wrong but I think McLaren will have cause to regret this. Red Bull are the ones coming out of this in the best position IMO.

Again, McLaren are NEVER going to go from total laughing stock to championship team overnight. It's going to take time as well as an engine that doesn't blow up 1/6th into its rated life (as Vandorne's did today).

I find it absolutely hilarious that you say McLaren are never going to with with Renault, yet somehow expect Honda to take them all the way. Honda have proven themselves to be as feckless an engine maker as you can possibly imagine. Red Bull are clearly outperforming the factory Works Renault team.

I feel the difference3 between us is that you appear content with the odd win and podium. If so, then I can see why you would be happy with Renault. I want bigger things for that for McLaren and I have my doubts that Renault will be able to deliver. Sure, there are doubts about Honda, too, but I suspect most of their issues stem from having to play catch up all the time, while Renault doesn't have that excuse. With the new regs coming up, which by all accounts will deliver much less complex engines, in an attempt to attract other manufacturers, I think they would be better off being a Honda Works team than a Renault customer. Take all the hilarity you want from that, but I suspect McLaren will have cause to regret their decision in a couple of years

Very, very, VERY exciting news as now three different F1 web sites are reporting that McLaren has finally decided to drop Honda and go with Renault power next year. Finally! The long wait is over or should I say, the long nightmare is over for McLaren. This means Alonso stays and is a much happier man. Conversely, those at Torro Rosso are probably finding a new pit of despair, knowing that the worst engine in F1 history will power their cars next year.

*Toro

Also, I thought this news was already known before the weekend: that McLaren have "decided" they want to go for Renault. The thing is that Renault do not want to supply four teams next year, so McLaren are dependent on Toro Rosso for willing to accept the Honda unit so the third Renault supply can go to McLaren.

I would really like for Honda to stick around and make their engine competitive but it's taken so long now and it's still not good. If a company like Honda can't make it work, shouldn't we start questioning the regs of these engines? They are so expensive and difficult to develop it scares away any new makers entering. Even Renaults engine is too poor to win races.

I'd say keep the V6, turbos and the kinetic recovery system, but ditch the heatrecovery. The brake-by-wire should be gone too but I heard they need that with the electric thingies (might not be a tecnical term) in order to make it work.

Edit: Voted 3-4 more years, but at the maximum 1 year to making it work with McLaren. I want to see them as a topteam again, but if Renault is the only option then I think they might aswell stick with Honda.

Sure, they can be the best bridesmaid with Renault power. But I was under the impression they wanted to be the bride? Never going to happen with Renault. If Red Bull, with all their resources and close relationship with Renault can't do it, there's next to no chance McLaren will. I'd be very happy if I'm wrong but I think McLaren will have cause to regret this. Red Bull are the ones coming out of this in the best position IMO.

Again, McLaren are NEVER going to go from total laughing stock to championship team overnight. It's going to take time as well as an engine that doesn't blow up 1/6th into its rated life (as Vandorne's did today).

I find it absolutely hilarious that you say McLaren are never going to with with Renault, yet somehow expect Honda to take them all the way. Honda have proven themselves to be as feckless an engine maker as you can possibly imagine. Red Bull are clearly outperforming the factory Works Renault team.

I feel the difference3 between us is that you appear content with the odd win and podium. If so, then I can see why you would be happy with Renault.

You are incorrect. Had you read and understood my text you'd have followed along to the part where the podiums then turn into race wins and then contending for championships. It's all there in the text, if you take the time to read it.

Zoue wrote:

I want bigger things for that for McLaren and I have my doubts that Renault will be able to deliver. Sure, there are doubts about Honda, too, but I suspect most of their issues stem from having to play catch up all the time, while Renault doesn't have that excuse.

Honda has made NO progress at all. None. Catching up implies some forward momentum. Honda has none. Red Bull get podiums. Red Bull has a VERY competitive trap speed. You can give Honda another 3 years and they will accomplish nothing but making Fernando go insane, and invent new excuses why they cannot understand their constant failure.

Zoue wrote:

With the new regs coming up, which by all accounts will deliver much less complex engines, in an attempt to attract other manufacturers, I think they would be better off being a Honda Works team than a Renault customer. Take all the hilarity you want from that, but I suspect McLaren will have cause to regret their decision in a couple of years

You and others have a "Works" fetish. It is not reasonable and certainly not backed up by any facts. Since you have no facts all you can rely on is speculation. Red Bull was a customer team and dominated. Liberty Media and the FIA are working very hard to insure that the next engine formula is much more fair than the current one. Since the level of complexity will be much lower, it is highly likely that they will succeed.

Flushing Honda down the toilet will be a great watershed moment in McLaren's history. I suspect you'll see that in the near future as McLaren have nowhere to go but up. Sadly, you'll watch Torro Rosso plunge into the dumpster formerly occupied by McLaren.

I would really like for Honda to stick around and make their engine competitive but it's taken so long now and it's still not good. If a company like Honda can't make it work, shouldn't we start questioning the regs of these engines? They are so expensive and difficult to develop it scares away any new makers entering. Even Renaults engine is too poor to win races.

I'd say keep the V6, turbos and the kinetic recovery system, but ditch the heatrecovery. The brake-by-wire should be gone too but I heard they need that with the electric thingies (might not be a tecnical term) in order to make it work.

Edit: Voted 3-4 more years, but at the maximum 1 year to making it work with McLaren. I want to see them as a topteam again, but if Renault is the only option then I think they might aswell stick with Honda.

Aside from the 6 race wins they've already powered in the hybrid era.

They have only won when something has happend to the Mercedes cars.

Honda had the same chance to win during these times and they never got close. Not even close enough to dream of a podium finish. How many pointless races in a row did they have?

Sure, they can be the best bridesmaid with Renault power. But I was under the impression they wanted to be the bride? Never going to happen with Renault. If Red Bull, with all their resources and close relationship with Renault can't do it, there's next to no chance McLaren will. I'd be very happy if I'm wrong but I think McLaren will have cause to regret this. Red Bull are the ones coming out of this in the best position IMO.

Again, McLaren are NEVER going to go from total laughing stock to championship team overnight. It's going to take time as well as an engine that doesn't blow up 1/6th into its rated life (as Vandorne's did today).

I find it absolutely hilarious that you say McLaren are never going to with with Renault, yet somehow expect Honda to take them all the way. Honda have proven themselves to be as feckless an engine maker as you can possibly imagine. Red Bull are clearly outperforming the factory Works Renault team.

I feel the difference3 between us is that you appear content with the odd win and podium. If so, then I can see why you would be happy with Renault. I want bigger things for that for McLaren and I have my doubts that Renault will be able to deliver. Sure, there are doubts about Honda, too, but I suspect most of their issues stem from having to play catch up all the time, while Renault doesn't have that excuse. With the new regs coming up, which by all accounts will deliver much less complex engines, in an attempt to attract other manufacturers, I think they would be better off being a Honda Works team than a Renault customer. Take all the hilarity you want from that, but I suspect McLaren will have cause to regret their decision in a couple of years

Renault seems much more competent that Honda. Honestly it's 3rd season and Honda engines can barely last 1 race. I would rather try to keep Alonso at McLaren than being Honda works team.

Neither Honda or Renault have a chance at the WDC/WCC. Renault has gotten the occational win when something has happend to the competition. Other than that it doesn't really matter if you have either of them since both are too far away from the Ferrari and Mercedes engines.

Sure, they can be the best bridesmaid with Renault power. But I was under the impression they wanted to be the bride? Never going to happen with Renault. If Red Bull, with all their resources and close relationship with Renault can't do it, there's next to no chance McLaren will. I'd be very happy if I'm wrong but I think McLaren will have cause to regret this. Red Bull are the ones coming out of this in the best position IMO.

Again, McLaren are NEVER going to go from total laughing stock to championship team overnight. It's going to take time as well as an engine that doesn't blow up 1/6th into its rated life (as Vandorne's did today).

I find it absolutely hilarious that you say McLaren are never going to with with Renault, yet somehow expect Honda to take them all the way. Honda have proven themselves to be as feckless an engine maker as you can possibly imagine. Red Bull are clearly outperforming the factory Works Renault team.

I feel the difference3 between us is that you appear content with the odd win and podium. If so, then I can see why you would be happy with Renault. I want bigger things for that for McLaren and I have my doubts that Renault will be able to deliver. Sure, there are doubts about Honda, too, but I suspect most of their issues stem from having to play catch up all the time, while Renault doesn't have that excuse. With the new regs coming up, which by all accounts will deliver much less complex engines, in an attempt to attract other manufacturers, I think they would be better off being a Honda Works team than a Renault customer. Take all the hilarity you want from that, but I suspect McLaren will have cause to regret their decision in a couple of years

Renault seems much more competent that Honda. Honestly it's 3rd season and Honda engines can barely last 1 race. I would rather try to keep Alonso at McLaren than being Honda works team.

When was the last time a Honda engine lasted the entirety of it's design life (5 races)? Has a Honda engine ever lasted the entirety of its design life?

A brand new Honda engine expired 2/3rds of the way into the race at Monza. Didnt last even a single race.

Sure, they can be the best bridesmaid with Renault power. But I was under the impression they wanted to be the bride? Never going to happen with Renault. If Red Bull, with all their resources and close relationship with Renault can't do it, there's next to no chance McLaren will. I'd be very happy if I'm wrong but I think McLaren will have cause to regret this. Red Bull are the ones coming out of this in the best position IMO.

Again, McLaren are NEVER going to go from total laughing stock to championship team overnight. It's going to take time as well as an engine that doesn't blow up 1/6th into its rated life (as Vandorne's did today).

I find it absolutely hilarious that you say McLaren are never going to with with Renault, yet somehow expect Honda to take them all the way. Honda have proven themselves to be as feckless an engine maker as you can possibly imagine. Red Bull are clearly outperforming the factory Works Renault team.

I feel the difference3 between us is that you appear content with the odd win and podium. If so, then I can see why you would be happy with Renault.

You are incorrect. Had you read and understood my text you'd have followed along to the part where the podiums then turn into race wins and then contending for championships. It's all there in the text, if you take the time to read it.

Zoue wrote:

I want bigger things for that for McLaren and I have my doubts that Renault will be able to deliver. Sure, there are doubts about Honda, too, but I suspect most of their issues stem from having to play catch up all the time, while Renault doesn't have that excuse.

Honda has made NO progress at all. None. Catching up implies some forward momentum. Honda has none. Red Bull get podiums. Red Bull has a VERY competitive trap speed. You can give Honda another 3 years and they will accomplish nothing but making Fernando go insane, and invent new excuses why they cannot understand their constant failure.

Zoue wrote:

With the new regs coming up, which by all accounts will deliver much less complex engines, in an attempt to attract other manufacturers, I think they would be better off being a Honda Works team than a Renault customer. Take all the hilarity you want from that, but I suspect McLaren will have cause to regret their decision in a couple of years

You and others have a "Works" fetish. It is not reasonable and certainly not backed up by any facts. Since you have no facts all you can rely on is speculation. Red Bull was a customer team and dominated. Liberty Media and the FIA are working very hard to insure that the next engine formula is much more fair than the current one. Since the level of complexity will be much lower, it is highly likely that they will succeed.

Flushing Honda down the toilet will be a great watershed moment in McLaren's history. I suspect you'll see that in the near future as McLaren have nowhere to go but up. Sadly, you'll watch Torro Rosso plunge into the dumpster formerly occupied by McLaren.

So... what progress have Renault made over the last 3 years? They started behind the Mercedes and Ferrari engines, and have got no closer to them. They only pick up wins when the Mercs have issues. If RB had a merc engine, they would be in the championship fight right now, if not running away with it.

What evidence have they shown that when the engine rules are rewritten, they can deliver a top engine?

Honda has made NO progress at all. None. Catching up implies some forward momentum. Honda has none. Red Bull get podiums. Red Bull has a VERY competitive trap speed. You can give Honda another 3 years and they will accomplish nothing but making Fernando go insane, and invent new excuses why they cannot understand their constant failure.

Look, I can sympathize with some of your points, but when you write down things like this expecting to be taken seriously I have to wonder what you're thinking.

First of all, hyperbole doesn't help in conveying an opinion in a proper discussion, nor do capitals.Second, you do not have a crystal ball and stating things with certainty about the future is not a wise thing to do.Third, of course Honda have made progress. Have you watched yesterday's race? Yeah, they are still blowing up, and yeah, that's not a good thing. But they blew up the past two years as well. So where's the progress? Well, yesterday it was a dry Monza race. Vandoorne and Alonso overtook people, they were competitive in the midfield and Vandoorne was in the gaggle of cars that was battling for a points finish. Basically since Monaco they have been able to be midfield speed-wise, and that includes some of the tracks that one would have suspected they'd run at the back (Monza, Baku).So of course they made progress.

Fourth, and this is me looking at the future (but no certainties involved), Mario Ilien has helped Renault in the past and his input could also propel Honda towards better competitiveness.

Neither Honda or Renault have a chance at the WDC/WCC. Renault has gotten the occational win when something has happend to the competition. Other than that it doesn't really matter if you have either of them since both are too far away from the Ferrari and Mercedes engines.

I agree. I do not think with either engine Mclaren was going to be fighting for top5 spots. But now I can see Mclaren becoming just like Williams a Tier2 team. With Honda they had hope it would come good sooner or later. You may never know Alonso curse might work again. Honda having a good engine next year and STR Mclaren fighting for points next year