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I wore the ring to this point because W and I were at least communicating - until a month ago, probably coincidental with OM, we had dinner together, went places with kids together, had plans on holidays together, etc.

Anyway, where I am now:W looked me in the eyes and promised to love me and be with me until we died - not being with anyone else, even through the bad times.

The ring was a symbol of that - with another man, she has shattered what it means.

I'm sure I'm going to get raked over the coals by A In Ohio, so I'm all prepared...

I get kids for the night on Mondays. Picked up S6 tonight - let D8 stay with W because she was sick, and didn't want to drag her out in this. Took S6 to his basketball camp, we went to Burger King, library, watched TV, played Wii, great time!

Anyway, I texted W, because S6 has a wee little MP3 player, and he was singing at the top of his lungs, and she sent back a grin.

A nice "light" thing, and didn't send anything else - had not communicated before this.

Then the fun started!

W: "When are you dropping of kids on Thursday" (NY Eve)

Me: "I am bringing Friday morning"

W: ":( Can I have them early - like Thursday afternoon. I got free tickets to the zoo"

Me: "Can't you go Tuesday night or Wednesday night?"

W: "No."

Me: "You previously refused family time, but want to take MY time?"

W: "You are getting extra time - I want to have kids when I want them, and I just don't want to be around you."

(Here's where I tried 180 and DBing - not sure if I went overboard?)

Me: "I am not getting 'extra' time, I am getting my time - the same time you will get next year. I'm sorry you have hard feelings towards me."

I decided to work with her on this, because she is really good about letting me have extra time. I want to be firm but reasonable. I felt like at this point I had clearly established that MY time was MY time, and she was not controlling it.

W calls me: All weepy, and she says I don't have the money to do fun stuff, and you get to do fun stuff all the time with the kids, and I want them to be able to have fun with me." This went on for probably 2 minutes.

I waited patiently until she finished, and I said, "W, I can fully understand that you feel frustrated, and I can see why it would bother you, but everything you just described is a result of your choices.

(You'll have to imagine spit flying, and emphasis on every word)W: "And I'm SO happy with my choices"

Then she said she had to get her purse, and hung up.

I was at a basketball gym and could barely hear her, so after I left I texted, and said I was out and had a signal now, so she was welcome to call. I offered to swap Tuesday night for Thursday night. She texted me, and said "No, everything is fine."

So she texted me "I am going to get the kids on Thursday. At 5. Thank you for your cooperation. Me and D8 are going to BW3 (wings restaurant)"

I texted back "No. I checked my email, and suggested I have them that day, and you said OK." (I was willing to work with her, but not be dictated to) I also said, "I am willing to discuss alternatives. Have fun at BW3s!"

I then texted her: "The chipotle sauce is really good, not too spicy"

W: "Fine, I have let you have them many times, but no more, from now on I will keep them all of my days."

(Funny note: I have probably kept them for her 40 or 50 times in the past 6 months, she may have watched them for me 5 or 6 times)

Me: "I have kept them many times for you. I realize you are upset, and I wish it wasn't so."

Me: "As a result of your choices, things are going to get more and more difficult. I understand you said you were happy with your decisions, and I'm glad to see you happy!"

W: "I have always worked with you, and you are not nice."

Me: "I'm sorry you feel I'm not nice. I offered to cancel MY zoo plans and let you pick up the kids a little early on Thursday in return for me keeping next Tues? I understand your choices have made life difficult, and I want the kids to have fun w/ you too" (Yeah, I know this probably wasn't the best)

W called me, and I ignored her - texted her that I was at the library.

Then I remembered she was going to BW3, and D8 was supposed to be sick - so I asked if D8 was feeling better.

OK, let me have it. I tried to validate every negative feeling. I don't like saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" The "I'm sorry" doesn't sound sincere - so am looking for a better phrase.

Before you unleash too much - this was a HUGE 180 for me. I maintained complete control, and even took advantage of her whining to point out that it was her choice - you can see by her response that it MAJORLY POed her.

I told myself about a week ago that things are going to get worse before they get better, and boy did they!

W texted me after the exchange above that she was coming to get S6 - I replied that I would drop him off, because we were playing Wii golf. She came anyway to get him, and she was spitting fire...

She came up and whispered in my ear, "I HATE you." Then she announced to D8 and S6 that she was going to start keeping them on Monday nights, and Daddy wasn't going to keep them anymore. I smiled, and said that I was very sorry she felt that way, but we could have a conversation about that wasn't in front of the kids. She kept on going, then marched them out. I told her we could have a calm civil conversation, but I wasn't going to fight, and she said, "No, I'm calm, just not letting you control me."

She said, "I could get full custody, I have 7 years of documentation on you, and I could go to court right now and file for child support, and get more money."

Then, "I can't believe you, you never change."

She rolled out - I was not going to make a scene in front of the kids, so I just smiled, and kept saying, "Not in front of the kids."

After she left, I texted her that I had documentation stating that Monday was my day, and I was not going to change. I told her I regretted that she felt so harshly, and I would be happy to discuss if she wished to share her feelings.

Then, I ended with this: "If you talk like this in front of the kids again, I will leave the room. I will not allow them to be used as pawns."

I left a message stating something like the following:"Hey, W, how's it going? Just following up on our chat, and I have the documentation here, and I'm going to have to stand firm on the schedule with the kids. It states here that I would have them Monday nights. I was a bit surprised by your anger, and I'm sorry that you have such harsh feelings. If you'd like to discuss without the kids around, then you are more than welcome to call me. I'd like to understand why you're feeling the way you are? Anyway, talk atcha later."

I talked like that on purpose, because I usually tend to respond pretty angrily.

This is probably the hardest part of dealing with W - she will come in, lay down her anger, and then trip out the door with no discussion, no warning, and then she'll seethe on that anger, and never let it go. I am doing SO much better, because I don't respond in kind anymore at all, but sheesh.

What fun! I'm pretty shaken up, but am going to hang tough. I'm thinking that she doesn't like being stood up to! Maybe it leads to ugliness, but I'm not going to compromise my kids - that is over the line.

Wow..{{{Jon}}} I can't believe she had the nerve to just march in there and take them on your night..ARGH..YOU handled that pretty calmly, actually the whole thing, IMHO..but of course AinO and Pup will tell you if we are wrong in thinking that!

Here is a question - if spouse comes in raring like that, is it a good idea to offer to listen? I read that on AinO's validation page, so thought I'd try it out. I won't get taken up on the offer, but figured I'd put it out there.

When wife said she had documentation, I had to laugh. She thinks 5 year old emails of us arguing are going to win her the money, full custody, house, etc. She just has no concept of how the court works. MEANWHILE, I have documented proof that we have been "legally" separated in the court's eyes for 2.5 years - hurting her on custody, alimony, child support, etc - plus proof of an affair, as well as a 7 month agreement where I have had kids 50% of the time, and usually more.

Anyway, I lost my cool for about 10 seconds when she was threatening me with custody, etc - and I said, "W, you have no idea what you're getting into, and you will be ruined, so laugh it up." She just smirked - I feel so sorry for her!

Anyway, I called tonight, (got voicemail), and just said this, "I said a couple of harsh things tonight, and I apologize. I want to contribute to healing, not more anger." That was it.

Wow..{{{Jon}}} I can't believe she had the nerve to just march in there and take them on your night..ARGH..YOU handled that pretty calmly, actually the whole thing, IMHO..but of course AinO and Pup will tell you if we are wrong in thinking that!

Wow. Puppy and I in the same sentance. He was the first guy to start kicking my a$$ on the boards. I feel somewhat honored... Maybe I can be the kinder gentler Puppy?

I'm sure I'm going to get raked over the coals by A In Ohio, so I'm all prepared...

I'm with you bro.... Let's walk thru this...

Originally Posted By: JonF

I get kids for the night on Mondays. Picked up S6 tonight - let D8 stay with W because she was sick, and didn't want to drag her out in this. Took S6 to his basketball camp, we went to Burger King, library, watched TV, played Wii, great time!

Anyway, I texted W, because S6 has a wee little MP3 player, and he was singing at the top of his lungs, and she sent back a grin.

A nice "light" thing, and didn't send anything else - had not communicated before this.

Very Nice!!! Good GALing.. Don't text too much. Once in a great while is fine. BTW, texting is not the best method of communication for DBing.

Maybe you can say something like, "Give me a call. I can't keep up with the texts". This way she can hear the New Jon. The strong, confident, happy Jon.

Originally Posted By: JonF

W: "When are you dropping of kids on Thursday" (NY Eve)Me: "I am bringing Friday morning"W: ":( Can I have them early - like Thursday afternoon. I got free tickets to the zoo"Me: "Can't you go Tuesday night or Wednesday night?"W: "No."Me: "You previously refused family time, but want to take MY time?"W: "You are getting extra time - I want to have kids when I want them, and I just don't want to be around you."(Here's where I tried 180 and DBing - not sure if I went overboard?)Me: "I am not getting 'extra' time, I am getting my time - the same time you will get next year. I'm sorry you have hard feelings towards me."

I decided to work with her on this, because she is really good about letting me have extra time. I want to be firm but reasonable. I felt like at this point I had clearly established that MY time was MY time, and she was not controlling it.

Jon - I'm also very selfish with my time concerning the kids. I told W as much. There is a certain way to do this and you have to use tact and skill to get it done.

Notice your W asked if she could have the kids in a nice way? Maybe rewarding this behavior will help your "friendship" effort. There is no right or wrong answer. I noticed that you flopped on your stance? You told her no then decided to work with her. MY time is MY time = NO.

We've been talking about being strong. You can be strong and flexable (Gucci-If your reading, this it's a direct quote from you ). You feel you made your point about "my time is my time" but then you decided to work with her on it. So, did you really make that point?

2X4: ME: "You previously refused family time, but want to take MY time?" This is punishing. You're rubbing her face in what she's not (pointing out her faults). Didn't your W say you didn't respect her?

2X4: W:"I just don't want to be around you". IMO, responding to this is encouraging bad behavior. Maybe a simple, "I understand" is plenty if you even want to reply to that behavior but I'n not sure why you would.

2X4: Me: "I am not getting 'extra' time," - You just told her she was wrong. Validate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe you can say, "I'm sure it seems that way".

IMO, there is too much "chatter" between you two when communicating. Be nice and too the point. Stop letting the bickering happen.

Originally Posted By: JonF

W calls me: All weepy, and she says I don't have the money to do fun stuff, and you get to do fun stuff all the time with the kids, and I want them to be able to have fun with me." This went on for probably 2 minutes.

I waited patiently until she finished, and I said, "W, I can fully understand that you feel frustrated, and I can see why it would bother you, but everything you just described is a result of your choices.

Great job listening!!!! Now validate when she finishes up, "It's hard on all of us. I'm sure it's especially hard on you". See?

She called you crying. She was reaching out to you. This sort of your think is your chance to shine. To show that your respect her. She's talking about a real issue, not about A, so be her friend. IMO, you punished her with the "everything you just described is a result of your choices" line. She knows what she chose. What did you expect her to say? A WAS is defensive in the first place. Maybe make a goal of getting W to let her guard down while respecting your bounderies?

Originally Posted By: JonF

(You'll have to imagine spit flying, and emphasis on every word) W: "And I'm SO happy with my choices"

Saw that coming. I think you backed her in a corner so she came out swinging. This is a conditioned response because she's scared of you.

Originally Posted By: JonF

I was at a basketball gym and could barely hear her, so after I left I texted, and said I was out and had a signal now, so she was welcome to call. I offered to swap Tuesday night for Thursday night. She texted me, and said "No, everything is fine."

I understand the jesture but after arguing why bother? Let your W come to you if having the kids is so important. Anything else is pursuing...

Originally Posted By: JonF

So she texted me "I am going to get the kids on Thursday. At 5. Thank you for your cooperation. Me and D8 are going to BW3 (wings restaurant)"

I texted back "No. I checked my email, and suggested I have them that day, and you said OK." (I was willing to work with her, but not be dictated to) I also said, "I am willing to discuss alternatives. Have fun at BW3s!"

So you told your W no, then offered to swap, told her no again, then threw some facts from an email in her face? If you want to work with her, then work with her. You let her pull you into a pi$$ing match and now your knee deep in... well... pi$$. Always take the higher road. It seems like a passive-agressive type sitch or something... IMO, your emotions are too high. Yes, she is ripping your heart out. Yes, she is tearing your family to pieces. You're going to realize what your made of during this ordeal. Stregnth and honor bro.

Originally Posted By: JonF

W: "Fine, I have let you have them many times, but no more, from now on I will keep them all of my days."

This is bad behavior. No need to respond to this. Any response is encouragement.

Originally Posted By: JonF

(Funny note: I have probably kept them for her 40 or 50 times in the past 6 months, she may have watched them for me 5 or 6 times)

It always works out like this. Expect it.

Originally Posted By: JonF

Me: "As a result of your choices, things are going to get more and more difficult. I understand you said you were happy with your decisions, and I'm glad to see you happy!"

If you keep reminding her that she hates you and rub her nose in the mess, it only validates her emotional feelings toward you. I read somewhere that for every one hurtful thing you say, it takes 5 nice things to make up for it.

Originally Posted By: JonF

W: "I have always worked with you, and you are not nice."

Me: "I'm sorry you feel I'm not nice. I offered to cancel MY zoo plans and let you pick up the kids a little early on Thursday in return for me keeping next Tues? I understand your choices have made life difficult, and I want the kids to have fun w/ you too" (Yeah, I know this probably wasn't the best)

Whew. Reminder number 5 that she f8cked up her life. I was reading the WAS board one day... believe me they know they messed up their life. Are you SHOWING her that the better life is with you? Again, your boundery is OM discussion. I have not seen any yet.

Your right, drop the fun with you line. You realized it was a mistake so I'll keep my 2X4 on that one...

Originally Posted By: JonF

Then I remembered she was going to BW3, and D8 was supposed to be sick - so I asked if D8 was feeling better.

Jon - Make a goal. How long can you go without saying, texting or emailing your W? You need to get some distance here, IMO.

Originally Posted By: JonF

OK, let me have it. I tried to validate every negative feeling. I don't like saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" The "I'm sorry" doesn't sound sincere - so am looking for a better phrase.

This isn't easy and your hurting. It's not always necessary to say your sorry. Talk to her like a friend when she brings a real problem to the table (like she has no money to do fun stuff). Just don't bail her out of the problem. When she's telling you that your lizard turd, ignore it. Don't encourage bad behavior.

Originally Posted By: JonF

Before you unleash too much - this was a HUGE 180 for me. I maintained complete control, and even took advantage of her whining to point out that it was her choice - you can see by her response that it MAJORLY POed her.

Do you want your W to be majorly POed? I mean that is directed AT you.

You did well. You know there is room for improvement. My suggestion would be to limit the contact, shorten the conversations and choose words carefully.