Too bad I got zapped. I was going to post this last night, but thought calmer heads would prevail. Guess I was wrong.

What has become of the FreeRepublic I joined so long ago?

Years ago, when this forum was young and gaining membership, the dedication to conservative principles was the theme that attracted many who were looking for an outlet to voice matters of political opinion in light of the Lewinsky Scandal. It was my primary reason for signing up. It gave me solace when I was racked in pain with a broken neck and back from an accident. It has been a place where returning the kindness shown to me has been easy, and rewarding. It has been a place to share the horror of 9/11, and the tears of the nation, the celebration of birth, and the tragedy of death and loss.

It has become a home of sorts, where I can share my experiences, and laugh at some of the wit and humor of so many valuable people. I have laughed with you, and cried for you and with you.

But that has all changed.

Through the years I have seen people come and go and be purged for political views that became, not one of debate, but one of demeaning personal attacks on those who did not agree with them politically. Once again, that has reared its ugly head here at FR and in the form of religious beliefs.

Recently, there has been a new creeping fascism by a small group of Creation Science believers into FR. These few individuals would have you believe that the Earth is 6000 years old, there is no other belief other than Jesus Christ, a great flood killed everyone and everything, leaving only a few survivors on a boat, which make little sense, and that any other opinion that does not agree with them either makes you either a liberal, an atheist, not worthy of posting here at FR, and not a true conservative. They would have you believe the Theory of Evolution is the cause of every human disaster since the time of the printing of Origin of the Species and that all science is a lie. The threads promulgated by these very few proclaim the fact they are right, while anyone disagreeing or choosing to debate them are wrong. Some of these individuals have promoted bigotry and personal attacks, which would have gotten any other individual here banned.

Yet, under the protection of the owner of the site, these very few have had the audacity to instill their beliefs into the core of what was once a great conservative site, and is now one that determines your conservatism by your acceptability of Creation Science. It has now become a site that determines your conservatism based on rejection of Mormonism, the Roman Catholic faith, atheism, on any religious belief but their own, and not on conservative values that have nothing to do with religious beliefs, but on what is best for the country and what we revere as America.

This is the worst kind of fanaticism as it pits a particular religious belief against an individuals ability to think. Something that has developed over millions of years, from the use of rudimentary tools to the complexities we enjoy today, an individuals ability to think sets us apart from most of the other animals. And we are still in the adolescence of that developing technology and intelligence. Look how far we have come from the written word to the printing press to the Internet.

This kind of fanaticism was used by Hitler against the Jews and just about every other race and culture, by the Italians against the African Continent, and by the Japanese against the Chinese. It was used by the Catholic Church in Spain as a weapon to force those not of the Catholic faith underground or tortured to death for heresy. It was part of the Crusades and the slaughter of millions of both Muslims and Christians. A struggle that continues even today, although it pits radical self-serving Islam against the free-thinking individual of any religious belief, basic human freedoms, and forces each of us to stand up to that type of extremism.

There are many religions in this world, and many beliefs in a different god. History is replete with various religious beliefs that either evolved or were discarded. Even those who do not adhere to the Christian belief should be free to choose what and how they think, and not be condemned by the few who see nothing but their way and dismiss their conservative values. This type of religious fanaticism degrades this forum to the very thing that the DUmmies expect from FR, intolerance of others.

Science is the quest for knowledge. That quest requires that each individual take a look at data and information and make a valued opinion. Science is not perfect, nor has it claimed to have all the answers, otherwise, cancer would be cured tomorrow, food would be grown enough to feed the world, and disease would be eliminated. But that is not the case. It is that quest that has sent us in directions to search for who we are, and where we came from. If the science leads us to god, or whatever deity that created the universe, then so be it, but to dismiss it is to ignore the progress of generations, and reinforces an ignorance that only education can alleviate. By using one book as the sole source to how everything has come to where it is now, is ignorance on the highest level. And to use that belief as a ruler to measure your worthiness as a conservative is beyond the pale.

I will miss the valuable wealth of knowledge of the gun-owners here. I will miss the total dedication to the memory of our brave fallen heroes, and the devotion to our military around the world. I will miss the realistic social and fiscal conservative values I found here that reinforces my own political views.

I will not miss the tolerated religious bigotry, the insulting, uneducated, demeaning tripe that passes for knowledge by those few who would dictate to the rest.

Yes, Jim, it is your site to do with as you please, but to allow the few to demean and dictate to the many what beliefs are acceptable and conservative, and with your blessing, is intolerable to me and probably many, many other conservatives here. It shows that the intolerance the left accuses conservatives of being does live on FreeRepublic. Maybe this kind of self purging is what you wanted allowing the sort of tripe we have seen lately. It serves conservatism very little and demeans everything you started this site to be.

I will continue to fight for conservative causes, pro-life causes, pro-gun legislation, and real conservative candidates to help us get this country of ours back to where it should be. It just wont be here, where my beliefs in that conservatism will be questioned because my religious beliefs are not coincidental with the owner.

I pray for our country and those who fight for her, in whatever capacity they can.

“Anytime Hitler is invoked in any form in a post, the debate is lost.”

I know what you mean, and you are right when that name is invoked as a kind of slur without argument.

It is a little broad though, I think. I’ve seen a few posts on the anti-environmentalism anti-global-warming threads pointing out the Nazi origins of modern-day environmentalism and Hitler’s envolvement with that. That is quite factual. For example:

To amend my last statement, I seriously ask, why do Pistolshot and wacka think this is supposed to generate sympathy for them.

Let's see. You have two guys who are obviously out of step with the majority on the forum, including the forum OWNER.

Knowing this fact, they nevertheless go onto threads they disagree with, taking potshots, calling people names, generally TRYING to stir up flamewars. And then they complain about it?

And then, to top it off, they want to whine about "religious bigotry" because people have the nerve to actually engage in religious debates? Sorry to break it to you guys, but in a free society, on a free forum, especially one called Free Republic, people are going to debate about things you don't like or couldn't care less about. Get over it. There's a simple way for you to avoid it, which is called "not participating in those threads."

The answer is NOT to have one of your buddies post some ill-thought out flounce explaining to everyone else why you're just too durn smart and tolerant and special to exist on this forum with the rest of us.

You'd think that after having been on FR for "so long" (but frankly, I don't care HOW long someone has been on FR, if they think that their seniority gives them the right to be an ass, think again), Pistolshot would know better by now.

So please, Pistolshot and wacka, don't let the door hit you in the rears on the way out.

......And a few years ago a group of evolutionists tried to force FR over to their way of thinking and they soon found themselves on the outs.

FR is a pro-God, pro-Creator, pro-Life, pro-Liberty site.

And now we have yet another group of Darwinists trying to have their Darwinist way with us. Well, as I've said before what doesn't kill us will only make us stronger.

Darwin Central has again declared war on FR. They have ping lists and email lists and will try to pull away as many FReepers as they possibly can. So be it. Those who would rather go with Darwin, please go. I sure as hell won't try to stop you.

Welcome to Pistola Whine Country. Pistolshot samples the Creationist Vintage and finds it sour. How dare such such fermentation be allowed to drunken the customers! He wonders. Give’m Darwin's Dregs, no spirit, flavored with fossils and sweetened with Consensus. If it's good enough for a scientist, it's good enough for all!

68
posted on 12/12/2009 6:38:19 AM PST
by count-your-change
(You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)

No one grabbed you by your hand and forced you to click on any of the crevo threads, now did they Pistolshot?

There are, at any given time, hundreds of threads discussing hundreds of different topics here on FR - don’t like any of them, don’t CLICK on them. Pretty simple, eh? There are a lot of topics on FR that inflame the passions of our members, and in a way, that’s part of the beauty of our forum.

I don’t mourn those who give up on FR simply because they don’t like the tone of a particular type of thread. It strikes me as a from of intolerance in itself.

Typically, the evos on this thread cannot tolerate a creation/ID post going up. Their typical methodology is to initiate a keyword spam, followed by going onto the thread and trying to stir up a flame war, while largely ignoring the original subject of the thread itself.

I have NOT seen this take place on the (granted, less prevalent, thanks to GGG) pro-evolution posts that go up) from the creationist/ID side.

I've had a few good discussions with evos over the years, mostly with that small subset of evos who are actually intelligent enough to conduct a scientific conversation that doesn't involve asking if Noah rode a brontosaurus. However, the fault lies mostly with the evos who are, indeed, trying to to force their opinions by disrupting discussion of opposing viewpoints.

the fault lies mostly with the evos who are, indeed, trying to to force their opinions by disrupting discussion of opposing viewpoints.

Based on seeing the threads go by on the Latest Posts page I'd tend to agree. They are very aggressive and hostile. That is not FRiendly.

If Jim decided that their verbal thuggery had reached the point that they needed to be bounced then it's his site and I also agree with him for what that matters. Debate is GREAT! Eye-scratching cat fights make me depressed. We're supposed to all be Conservatives here and if not you get the zot. The shallow name-calling "religious" wars are, well, very off-putting to say the least.

Long Live Free Republic. Someone needs to keep the peace. JimRob does.

I've had a few good discussions with evos over the years, mostly with that small subset of evos who are actually intelligent enough to conduct a scientific conversation that doesn't involve asking if Noah rode a brontosaurus. However, the fault lies mostly with the evos who are, indeed, trying to to force their opinions by disrupting discussion of opposing viewpoints.

I think one of the things most objected to by the evos, is that quite a few of the cres make very little effort to gain a proper understanding of scientific terms and concepts relevant to understanding what evolution *does* claim. And apparently persist in their errors even after being told repeatedly that they are making elementary errors, or engaging in strawmen.

It can be *enormously* trying to try to debate, or to teach people, who don't want to learn.

And so people who approach the dispute from a higher level of learning, or more respect for intellectualism, are flamed less, and treated with more (though sometimes grudging) respect by the evos.

If Jim decided that their verbal thuggery had reached the point that they needed to be bounced then it's his site and I also agree with him for what that matters. Debate is GREAT! Eye-scratching cat fights make me depressed. We're supposed to all be Conservatives here and if not you get the zot. The shallow name-calling "religious" wars are, well, very off-putting to say the least.

I would tend to agree. I had scaled back my FR involvement in recent months until just recently because it seemed like the jerks were starting to take over the place, and I was being sucked into flame wars that I didn't really want to be in, but had acquired a "stake" in because of defending somebody who was the object of unwarranted attacks. Not just the evos either, mind you. There seems to be a certain subset of FReeper on here who can't handle it when people disagree with them - it immediately becomes personal.

Oh and one other thing - I've seen little in the way of actual religious "bigotry" on here. I've seen a lot of religious debates, sometimes heated, but I don't qualify the mere act of disagreeing with someone else's religion as "bigotry," as some on here seem to. In fact, I'm just the opposite - I've been meaning to write an essay, never gotten around to it yet, as to why religious debate is GOOD for a pluralistic society. Quite the opposite of the "don't talk about it because people might get offended and think you're a bigot!" mentality.

I think one of the things most objected to by the evos, is that quite a few of the cres make very little effort to gain a proper understanding of scientific terms and concepts relevant to understanding what evolution *does* claim. And apparently persist in their errors even after being told repeatedly that they are making elementary errors, or engaging in strawmen.

True enough. In general, it's always a wise idea to know what you're talking about before getting into a debate about it, and not just on crevo threads.

It would help, too, if the evos would make an effort to actually understand what creationist arguments are, too. Both sides perhaps need some primers. I would suggest they all sit down and read Del Ratzsch's book "The Battle of Beginnings," which deals more with what both sides believe, rather than arguing the science itself. The author would be considered an IDer today, who used to be a Darwinist, hence he knows both sides.

The claim here is that everybody who refuses to believe in evolution and/or refuses to become an evoloser is part of some sort of a Borg or monolith, characterized by literal belief in the Bible and belief in a 6000-year-old universe.

I know outright atheists who claim not to believe in evolution, in other words, atheism is sufficiently stupid without subscribing to any other brain-dead doctrines...

I think we're on the same page here. The personal antagonism here on many topics has increased in the past couple months (but didn't start then, of course.)

Jim Robinson knows what he's doing and the false arguments about his "purity purges" are just part of the shallow noise-generating rudeness.

I see lots and lots of different opinions every single day here. There is *never* a problem unless they are moonbattery or abusive. Period.

And one of the reasons I'm here, on the single most decent public forum on the web IMO, is *exactly* because decent, conservative adults can talk about serious and silly things without the raucus,mind-numbingly crass nonsense you see on other sites.

It's not much but I make monthly contributions and as a contributing member I think Jim maintains a good balance between free thought and focused objectives in a FRiendly forum. If he occasionally bounces disruptive factions then so be it. Every respectable establishment in the world does that.

Perhaps the author of the excerpt would like to comment upon your interpretation of his post; evidentally it would be interesting to many freepers to see if he concurs with you in your interpretation of his words.

It has now become a site that determines your conservatism based on rejection of Mormonism, the Roman Catholic faith, atheism, on any religious belief but their own, and not on conservative values that have nothing to do with religious beliefs, but on what is best for the country and what we revere as America.

What is best for the "country"....hmmmmmm the democrat vision of a socialist country or the free country and belief in God, envisioned by our founders?

Isn't a TITLE search or a KEYWORD search for either of the words 'evolution' or 'creationism' a very easy way to locate all threads of interest to you?

What do they mean when it is said conspiratorially, "They find the threads" --- far as I can tell, the google bots make EVERY single FR posting available to the entire Internet within minutes of its being posted.

Who is required to fund the TOE? Why the Supremes sanctioned its veracity and gave the TOE a house of worship called the ‘system’ of public education. As I have observed (love that word) these gods of climate science used the same methodology to survive.

And even BamKennedy loves to use that ‘scientific methodology’ laid out before him in establishing his system of health care.... But has the majority of TOE preachers and disciples taken note... that using ‘science’ he, god BamKennedy will deem it necessary to ‘peer’ review whether OLD American grandmas should be required to only get a ‘pill’ instead of a ‘procedure’.

TOE does not sit above the Heavenly Father in using taxpayers dollars to provide the so called science to pick and choose who is ‘fittest’ to survive. Most especially when the TOE would whither on that proverbial vine if it were to be left on its own to survive. First class of welfare recipients are the unsettled scientists.

I think one of the things most objected to by the evos, is that quite a few of the cres make very little effort to gain a proper understanding of scientific terms and concepts relevant to understanding what evolution *does* claim.

That is NOT true.

Most creationists/IDers have a far better grasp of the ToE than evos care to admit,and from what I've seen of posters on both sides of the debate, is that there appears to be more in the non-evo camp with advanced degrees in science than there are evos. Many of the evos, by their own admission, have neither degrees nor job experience in a science related field. How that makes them qualified to pass judgment on non-evos for their comprehension of science is beyond me, but they do it anyway.

The evos biggest stumbling block is their total inability to comprehend that someone could consider the ToE and choose to not believe it.

They are so convinced of the truth of it, that they feel that if someone REALLY understood it, they'd be compelled to believe it. Hence, the accusations of ignorance and willful blindness.

Not the case.

Evos move the goalposts on scientific terms all the time. Even if you do a google search on terms like *species* you'll find that there is a lot of disagreement about what the classification really is.

87
posted on 12/12/2009 8:36:25 AM PST
by metmom
(Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)

The claim here is that everybody who refuses to believe in evolution and/or refuses to become an evoloser is part of some sort of a Borg or monolith, characterized by literal belief in the Bible and belief in a 6000-year-old universe.

No it's not, Ted. Try reading for comprehension.

I know outright atheists who claim not to believe in evolution, in other words, atheism is sufficiently stupid without subscribing to any other brain-dead doctrines...

“SO much easier to be the martyr, which doesnt wear well on a darwinist with the kind of obnoxious, troll like behavior they exhibit when a creationist thread is posted.

Nobody pings them to it and yet they find them, swarm them, and ridicule and mock everything anyone else believes and stands for.”

The point of the comment was that the evos complain about creationist threads being posted on FR and where they’re posted.

If they don’t like it or them, they don’t have to participate. Nobody is making them. Nobody pinged them to it to invite them over for debate, or to try to annoy them like they were taunting them with it.

They searched the threads out on their own, as anyone has the right to do. But to come on and stir the pot like so many do with their Christian and creationist bashing tirades and then complain about the lack of intellectual or scientific debate is beyond the pale.

The objection isn’t to them coming on the thread and discussing the thread. The objection is to coming on the thread and using it as an opportunity to Christian bash.

91
posted on 12/12/2009 8:50:26 AM PST
by metmom
(Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)

I’ve been here for years with no issues and I do not believe there is a god. I simply choose to not visit threads that revolve around a religious theme. It is pointless to debate the feasability of a religious belief with a follower of that belief.

I mean really... Think about what you were attempting to engage in... Not very smart on your part.

I’m here for the limited government part of all this and in those threads I almost exclusivly reside and should you decide to repeal your opus I recomend you do the same. No need to turn natural allies into enemies.

I dont think you can support your claim that non-evos have more advanced degrees than evos

That's not what I said. What I said was....." that there appears to be more in the non-evo camp with advanced degrees in science than there are evos."

That is simply based on asking people and reading what some of them have posted about themselves.

Some of the most vocal in the evo camp, often ones who never really even discuss or support the science, but just bash, either admit to not having a science degree, or simply refuse to answer and disappear off the thread when asked.

There are plenty of us creationists/IDers who have degrees in science and/or have worked in scientific fields.

Pinging some creationists, some of whom I KNOW have advanced science degrees.

93
posted on 12/12/2009 9:03:36 AM PST
by metmom
(Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)

“The objection isnt to them coming on the thread and discussing the thread. The objection is to coming on the thread and using it as an opportunity to Christian bash.”

Ah, see, here is where there is the misunderstanding. I have repeatedly stated that I slam “creation science”, not the concept of creationism - yet it is very difficult to get anyone on the “creation science” side to admit there is a distinct delineation between the two concepts.

I think I know why, and that is that “creation science” has no standing in faith or science - but they try to use both as an excuse for their mediocrity.

Now here you seem to engage in the same practice. In a previous post you make a totally unsubstantiated claim that “evos” have fewer advanced degrees than “non evos” then here, you make the claim that criticism of the claimed “creation science” is an attack on Christianity.

I’ve always tried to live by the rule that someones faith honestly expressed is off-limits for undue criticism (not necessarily disagreement or discussion).

You and the profligate GGG do not seem comfortable with the separation of “creation science” from faith - because it leaves you naked and exposed in your ignorance of science - so when the “science” that is presented on the GGG threads is criticized (as it richly deserves to be), you attempt to hide behind faith - then try to equivalence belief in the research-backed theoretical concepts of evolution (and other sciences) to faith.

Exactly- You shoudl see the nasty posts they have over there agaisnt members here- myself, GGG, editor-survey, metmom, and many others are cosntantly being maligned by the evos over there- and they come here and complain that FR is an ‘intolorant site’? Lol-

[[I guess you missed the fact that the link I gave, wherein an “anti-evo” was the first to get snotty IN THE THREAD TITLE he started, actually *was* one of GGG’s gems... ]]

ooookay- I guess you missed the few hundred other threads that GGG posted where the evos were the first to fire off their nasdty little ad hominem attacks- per usual, you glom onto a scant few examples to make your case when the FACTS show that it has been the evos- over the past few years- who have ALWAYS started i nwith the nasty little comments about Creationists, ID proponents, and anyone who beleives God’s word

Keep feigning innocence when you next claim how it’s only the ‘Hard-core Christians’ who post insults- You sir have mastered the art of insulting others while playing hte poor victim and making it look like you’re the one who is unjustly being insulted

[[Sure, I can get snotty. I’m damned good at it, actually.]]

Gee- ya think?

[[But I try very hard not to a) be the first to cast the first snot (i.e. I strive to respond in kind as much as possible), and b) document and justify exactly *why* someone deserves the return fire I’m giving them after they’ve made the mistake of being the first one to get snotty when coming unarmed to a battle of wits.]]

A quick look back at your posts puts that silly claim to rest- Shall I dig up your posts and reveal here your pot shotting remarks that were NOT initiated by anyone firing the first salvo?

[[And while we’re at it, are you seriously going to point fingers at *me* for alleged violations of decorum, when your own posts are so frequently so vitriolic I feel as if I should wipe the flying spittle from my laptop screen after reading several of your posts? I mean, come on! ]]

Want a tissue? As I mentioned, a quick check of GGG’s threads will show that I ONLY come into threads AFTER the evos start in with their assinine petty ad hominems- and quite frankly, I have not been nearly as nasty as they are- So go cry on someone elses shoulder- again- We’re not buying into the liberal sob stories here

[[tell me what he *did* get zotted for then after ten years here.]]

It’s already been explained to you- As mentioned, there are several folks here on FR that have ‘dissagreed with ‘Hard Core Christians’ for many years, and they are still here- still welcome, and have never had any problems- IF you think pistolpete has simply been banned because ‘all he did was dissagree with ‘hard-core Christians’- then provide hte proof- that’s an accusatio nthat demands proof since you are attackign the integrity and name of FR

[[And gosh, what a coincidence, several other “evos” on those contentious threads were banned/suspended at the same time (wacka after six years here, IronKros after seven years here, Buck W. after nine years here, etc.). Nothing but a mere coincidence, is it CottShop?]]

Perhaps you wouldl ike a list of the childish petty and constant insults and nasty remarks made by these individuals over the past years? They’ve been warned many many times NOT to engage in these activities, but they ignored those warnings time and time again- they were not simple ‘dissagreements with ‘Hard-Core Christians’ either fella- they were engaged in constant harrassment of certain individuals here on FR- somethign that is called troll behavior, and somehtign that has been brewing for a long time here- MANY psoters have asked them to tone it down for al ong time now- but again- they were apparently hell-bent on playing hte martyre role and gettign themselves banned, and they got their wish, and now you’re apparently wantign people to have the impression that they were unjustly banned? Sorry- again- we’re not buying into such liberal sob stories

[[And yet... Can you name a single “anti-evo” who was zotted in this most recent purge, even though tempers on *both* sides flared and the “anti-evos” were hardly acting like angels?]]

Actually yeah- there were a few ‘anti-evos’ (whatever that is) who were for getting out of line- it isn’t just evos who are zotted for stepping over htel ine- so please, spare us the martyre claims

[[It appears that strongly arguing the “anti-evo” side is considered no vice, and strongly arguing the “evo” side is considered no virtue.]]

Here we go again- feigning innocence- NOONE got banned for simply ‘strongly arguing’ ANY side- folks get banned for constant and cocnerted harrassment utilizing trollish behavior- There are MANY evolution supporters who ‘strongly argue’ their positions WITHOUT exhibitting such behavior- and quite frankly, those discussions, although heated and passionate on both sides, are a pleasure to read and participate in

There’s a HUGE difference between heatedly defendign one’s position and consistantly harrassing those you dissagree with as those that you mentioned constantly did. That is a distinction that those who got zotted apparently either didn’t understand, or didn’t care enough about the feelings of others to recognize or cede- they were repeatedly asked to tone down their rhetoric, and they refused.

“That’s not what I said. What I said was.....” that there appears to be more in the non-evo camp with advanced degrees in science than there are evos.””

I think you are making a distinction without a difference. Nonetheless, again, I don’t think you can make the claim you are making unless you can substantiate it and since you have denoted an objective measure, you should be able to provide the data......I know that’s a lot to ask for from the “creation science” camp - they don’t like providing their data for scrutiny. Perhaps you are different.

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