Just curious about this having worshipped in numerous Orthodox parishes all over including Europe but recently attended a "non-ethnic" all convert Antiochian Orthodox church on Pascha and found it strange that during the reading of the Epistle, the sermon and even the pascal sermon of St John Chrysostom just about everyone quickly and in unison sat on the floor. Where does this come from?

In most churches in the UK, regardless of ethnicity, people sit for the Epistle and sermon (this is less likely amongst the Russians but still done) so I suppose if there aren't enough seats the floor is the next best place. It certainly happens every week during the sermon (but not Epistle) in the Orthodox Church in Edinburgh which has umpteen nationalities. There is something nice (to me) about seeing people sitting at the priest's feet while he's teaching, I guess it reminds me of Paul at the feet of Gameliel

Just curious about this having worshipped in numerous Orthodox parishes all over including Europe but recently attended a "non-ethnic" all convert Antiochian Orthodox church on Pascha and found it strange that during the reading of the Epistle, the sermon and even the pascal sermon of St John Chrysostom just about everyone quickly and in unison sat on the floor. Where does this come from?

Itching legs.

I also sometimes sit on floor on sermons, especially when I'm in home city because they last ≈ 30 minutes.

Just curious about this having worshipped in numerous Orthodox parishes all over including Europe but recently attended a "non-ethnic" all convert Antiochian Orthodox church on Pascha and found it strange that during the reading of the Epistle, the sermon and even the pascal sermon of St John Chrysostom just about everyone quickly and in unison sat on the floor. Where does this come from?

Cleaner carpets and rugs.

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Still seems strange and somewhat like muslims or buddhists or hindus praying, I still do not think anyone would be sitting on the floor in any Slavic church, besides most churches in Europe had stone floors not carpeting like the US.

Just curious about this having worshipped in numerous Orthodox parishes all over including Europe but recently attended a "non-ethnic" all convert Antiochian Orthodox church on Pascha and found it strange that during the reading of the Epistle, the sermon and even the pascal sermon of St John Chrysostom just about everyone quickly and in unison sat on the floor. Where does this come from?

Itching legs.

I also sometimes sit on floor on sermons, especially when I'm in home city because they last ≈ 30 minutes.

Whoa! A whole half an hour? That is a long time to stand! (Sarcasm)

I thought that Orthodox stood. No pews. If you're physically able get up! The earliest known Liturgy lasted about five hours, but around A.D. 400 St. Basil edited it down to about half that (all standing). St. John Chrysostom later reduced it down even more, to about one and a quarter to one and a half hours (still standing).

Seems to me the Protestants came up with this sitting business. Why should Orthodox conform? We are supposed to conform them to our ways aren't we?

Still seems strange and somewhat like muslims or buddhists or hindus praying, I still do not think anyone would be sitting on the floor in any Slavic church, besides most churches in Europe had stone floors not carpeting like the US.

I really do not want to turn this into another pews topic since we have two of those already.

What I think you are experiencing here is a want to be "traditional" and not have the pews but, a lack of knowledge or proper ethos to understand that the lack of pews means a different standard in participation. Even though there are no pews the people are still acting as if they have pews.

In my parish most people stand except for the elderly, the infirm, and some small children. As for sitting on the floor, I'll pass. Not that I'm in bad shape, but it's just awkward trying to get up. On top of that, it would wrinkle my suit. I always feel a bit awkward attending a parish where the people sit, as I'm not used to that. The most awkward I felt was at a parish where everyone knelt before Communion. I know it's best to follow "When in Rome....", but I was taught kneeling on Sundays was a big no-no. Not trying to be legalistic, or judgmental, but that weird-ed me out a bit.

Just my two cents worth, as I'm in no way interested in a pew discussion.

Seems to me the Protestants came up with this sitting business. Why should Orthodox conform? We are supposed to conform them to our ways aren't we?

While pews are a recent innovation, sitting is a traditional Orthodox practice. We find a passage in St. John Cassian, for example, which mentions it being the common custom of even monks to sit during some services (Institutes, 2, 5). It's not anathema to sit, it's just a question of when we are taking sitting too far and letting the desire for comfort to rule over us.

Seems to me the Protestants came up with this sitting business. Why should Orthodox conform? We are supposed to conform them to our ways aren't we?

While pews are a recent innovation, sitting is a traditional Orthodox practice. We find a passage in St. John Cassian, for example, which mentions it being the common custom of even monks to sit during some services (Institutes, 2, 5). It's not anathema to sit, it's just a question of when we are taking sitting too far and letting the desire for comfort to rule over us.

Interesting. But I hardly think that one example makes it "a traditional Orthodox practice". I would have to say that from what I've learned - standing is the norm.

Orthodox Christians worship standing for three reasons: out of respect for Christ the King, as a sign of the Resurrection (Christ has raised us up with Himself), and because worship is properly an active work of the people, not passive listening or entertainment.

St.Augustine, when discussing standing in church, says only those who are afflicted of their legs by old age or sickness should sit during worship. The healthy should stand. He says: “Thus, I ask you noble daughters, and implore you with fatherly concern, that none of you should sit during readings or homilies, unless a profound weakness of the body forces you to do so..”.

“We are all concelebrants in this heavenly worship. We all are participants in this angelic worship around the Throne of God. This is precisely why we stand for worship. We come together to worship with one voice in the presence of God. Scripturally speaking, the two postures for worship are on one’s face in prostration or standing with faces turned towards the great I AM with arms outstretched”.

Seems to me the Protestants came up with this sitting business. Why should Orthodox conform? We are supposed to conform them to our ways aren't we?

Inquirers aren't in the "we" caste, and catechumens are, but theirs is the quiet "we" caste. They are only allowed to speak up about things after being Orthodox for a minimum of seven holy years. Read the obscure canons to fuel your penchant for strictness!

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We sit during the Epistle reading and the homily. This is mostly so that people in the back can see than anything. The iconostasis and altar are slightly elevated so anything done up around them is clearly visible to everyone. The epistle reading and homily are done on the floor, no one could see anything if everyone stood. This also helps with sound distribution as well. No one is mic-ed so the difference in hearing is fairly large between when everyone stands or sits when the readings are done on the floor as opposed to up the steps near the iconostasis. We have a small Nave and around 150-200 people on any given Sunday. Bishop JOSEPH is pretty "old school" and he has no issue with this practice.

As an additional note, we don't have pews in the main part of the Nave. We have a few pews along the edges, the rest is just floor. We do kneel during certain readings during Lent/Holy Week etc. We also do full prostrations when saying the Lenten prayer of St. Ephraim during Lent as well.

Seems to me the Protestants came up with this sitting business. Why should Orthodox conform? We are supposed to conform them to our ways aren't we?

Inquirers aren't in the "we" caste, and catechumens are, but theirs is the quiet "we" caste. They are only allowed to speak up about things after being Orthodox for a minimum of seven holy years. Read the obscure canons to fuel your penchant for strictness!

Now you've gone and cut me to the quick!

It's not about strictness but correctness. Can you define 'Orthodoxy'?

No caste for me... I'm full. I may only be just becoming a catechumen - but I believe I am a well-versed catechumen. Try me.

And I'll speak when I wish thanks. If I'm wrong just demonstrate that. Otherwise I think you should just go sit down. The floor is kind of hard though, maybe we you could use some bean bags or something? No need to curse! Here, take one of these:

We sit during the Epistle reading and the homily. This is mostly so that people in the back can see than anything. The iconostasis and altar are slightly elevated so anything done up around them is clearly visible to everyone. The epistle reading and homily are done on the floor, no one could see anything if everyone stood.

Thanks,

Short people in front, tall people in the back. What do we they really need to see anyway though? They need to hear. People go to rock concerts, etc which are 3 hours plus and stand the whole time but we people need to sit in Church?

Quote

This also helps with sound distribution as well. No one is mic-ed so the difference in hearing is fairly large between when everyone stands or sits when the readings are done on the floor as opposed to up the steps near the iconostasis. We have a small Nave and around 150-200 people on any given Sunday. Bishop JOSEPH is pretty "old school" and he has no issue with this practice.

Seems to me that these same 'issues' which lead to a 'need' for sitting would also have existed 500, 1,000, 1,500, 2,000 yrs ago as well. Yet they all always stood - didn't they? Regardless, people will do whatever they wish. Me? I'll stand.

Seems to me the Protestants came up with this sitting business. Why should Orthodox conform? We are supposed to conform them to our ways aren't we?

Inquirers aren't in the "we" caste, and catechumens are, but theirs is the quiet "we" caste. They are only allowed to speak up about things after being Orthodox for a minimum of seven holy years. Read the obscure canons to fuel your penchant for strictness!

Now you've gone and cut me to the quick!

It's not about strictness but correctness.

Seriously, have you thought that, with you, it may be about both? You seem to want to be rather strict in your practice of correctness.

Just curious about this having worshipped in numerous Orthodox parishes all over including Europe but recently attended a "non-ethnic" all convert Antiochian Orthodox church on Pascha and found it strange that during the reading of the Epistle, the sermon and even the pascal sermon of St John Chrysostom just about everyone quickly and in unison sat on the floor. Where does this come from?

Still seems strange and somewhat like muslims or buddhists or hindus praying, I still do not think anyone would be sitting on the floor in any Slavic church, besides most churches in Europe had stone floors not carpeting like the US.

What about greek, middle eastern, or western rite Orthodox churches? Is this a matter of the substance of our faith, or how that substance is expressed?

In My "traditional" ROCOR parish where practices generally will pass the "correctness" meter many do sit on the floor (as we have no pews) during the sermons. The sermons are usually no more the 7-8 minutes.

I understand the zealousness that would bring a new Orthodox inquirer to want to see everything in the Church in a "correct" fashion but from personal experience these small things really are not that important. Focus on your personal salvation and all will be good.

"Bound up with this is a disease of today's Orthodox Christians which can be deadly: the 'correctness disease.' . . . If you are critical of others, self-confident about your correctness, eager to quote canons to prove someone else is wrong, constantly 'knowing better' than others--you have the germs of the 'correctness disease.' These are signs of immaturity in spiritual life . . ." Hieromonk Seraphim Rose

We sit during the Epistle reading and the homily. This is mostly so that people in the back can see than anything. The iconostasis and altar are slightly elevated so anything done up around them is clearly visible to everyone. The epistle reading and homily are done on the floor, no one could see anything if everyone stood.

Thanks,

Short people in front, tall people in the back. What do we they really need to see anyway though? They need to hear. People go to rock concerts, etc which are 3 hours plus and stand the whole time but we people need to sit in Church?

Quote

This also helps with sound distribution as well. No one is mic-ed so the difference in hearing is fairly large between when everyone stands or sits when the readings are done on the floor as opposed to up the steps near the iconostasis. We have a small Nave and around 150-200 people on any given Sunday. Bishop JOSEPH is pretty "old school" and he has no issue with this practice.

Seems to me that these same 'issues' which lead to a 'need' for sitting would also have existed 500, 1,000, 1,500, 2,000 yrs ago as well. Yet they all always stood - didn't they? Regardless, people will do whatever they wish. Me? I'll stand.

I highly doubt that arranging people by size was done 2,000 years ago. I do know that being charitable was done, and has been ever since. You could attend a parish that gets everything right but in actuality everything is wrong because being right is more important that behaving right.

The only perfect churches are the ones without people. Sky down on the catechumen zealousness over non-essentials.

Seriously, have you thought that, with you, it may be about both? You seem to want to be rather strict in your practice of correctness.

Yes, I guess you have a point there. There really is no such thing as "sort of" correct. Correctness is strict by definition. 2+2=3.93 is simply not correct. Only 4 would be strictly correct. I suppose what we're actually discussing here is Orthopraxy.

In My "traditional" ROCOR parish where practices generally will pass the "correctness" meter many do sit on the floor (as we have no pews) during the sermons. The sermons are usually no more the 7-8 minutes.

I understand the zealousness that would bring a new Orthodox inquirer to want to see everything in the Church in a "correct" fashion but from personal experience these small things really are not that important. Focus on your personal salvation and all will be good.

"Bound up with this is a disease of today's Orthodox Christians which can be deadly: the 'correctness disease.' . . . If you are critical of others, self-confident about your correctness, eager to quote canons to prove someone else is wrong, constantly 'knowing better' than others--you have the germs of the 'correctness disease.' These are signs of immaturity in spiritual life . . ." Hieromonk Seraphim Rose

I see what you mean; perhaps I am slightly guilty of this - but I think not so much. We're not in Church; we're just discussing things in a (generally) friendly way.

If the sermons are only 7 or 8 minutes - it should be easy to remain standing for that long!

I am not really trying to be critical of others any more than they are being critical of me. I am talking about practice not people. I would never say to someone in Church, "You really should be standing you know!" but I think that's different from us discussing the matter here in an informal setting. In Church I do my thing and I don't worry about what others do. But here and now, I have an opinion which I'm entitled to.

I didn't make these things up... the Church has always done them for the most part up until the last few centuries.

The only perfect churches are the ones without people. Sky down on the catechumen zealousness over non-essentials.

There are plenty of Churches which don't sit. They have plenty of people. How is quoting what a Saint and father of the Church has written classed as "zealousness" - as if it's a bad thing? Being correct is good! Was St.Augustine too zealous? Or is he a Saint because of his Orthodoxy and his zeal?

We sit during the homily only. There are pews and some people sit the whole time even during the "wrong" parts such as the Gospel reading but these are mostly new people and kids. The regs usually stand the whole time (though I'm not sure I'm a reg yet.) and it makes no matter if others wanna sit. If someone wants to stand the whole time and say that we should stand the whole time I have no problem with that either. There's only an issue if they're judging people and how do I know what they're doing in their head? All I can guard against are outright judging statements. This forum has a tendency I feel to jump on the people who want to stick to the letter of the law or simply state what the 'ideal' situation is. One can state what the right/ideal thing to do is without being holy-than-thou.

Pews/sitting/whatever aren't a big deal, but neither is not wanting any of it.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 08:30:04 PM by CBGardner »

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Authentic zeal is not directed towards anything but union in Christ, or against anything but our own fallenness.

"I still do not think anyone would be sitting on the floor in any Slavic church..."

That may be because in parts of Eastern Europe there's a rather foolish belief that if someone sits on the floor they'll become sterile from the cold :-). God knows I yearned to sit on the floor during the homily when I lived in Russia and Ukraine - waking up early in the morning to trek 45 minutes to an hour to church and then stand for 3 to 4 hours can be a bit much sometimes :-).

In my Russian heritage OCA parish we sit on the floor during the homily. (People who need to can sit on the wall benches during the epistle or whenever.) Of the two Russians who regularly attend the services at our parish one, a woman born right after the Bolshevik Revolution who escaped abroad during World War II and still thinks the ROCOR was wrong to reconcile with Moscow, doesn't think anything of it. The other, a Soviet woman only recently returned to church life, thinks it's ridiculous. Go figure :-).

« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 05:26:20 PM by kijabeboy03 »

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"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

"Those that sit on the floor are usually the same people that also inhabit some fourth century fantasy land or maybe pre-Hastings England and say "Amen" at the epiklesis."

I'm extremely grateful I live in the 21st century, I'm much more Dutch and Irish than English (tho' I do love tea ;-) ), and I don't say amen at the epiclesis. (The people in my area who do, and who also read all the secret prayers out loud, are either Romanian or Greek Orthodox.)

That's quite the condemnation for people takin' a back brake during the sermon :-).

« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 10:50:31 AM by kijabeboy03 »

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"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

Haha. In a certain place, even if there is still seating along the walls, on the chairs, there are certain uberpious folks that would sit on the floor, thinking it's somehow "more eastern". They also gush out a loud pious sometimes teary amen at the epiklesis. i've seen none back home do that.

"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

I sit on the floor when there are no seats left, not because it is some pious thing, but because my legs are tired and I want to rest them and concentrate on what the priest is saying. I would think it would be more pretentious to stand there when everyone else is sitting down. That would be posturing. I just go along with what the others do.

I always assumed people did it when they ran out of room on the back seats. I don't sit though, I'm just a bit more pious than others, not to mention I'm serving in the altar and don't want my imperial vestments getting filthy. All that really annoys me is when people say "amen" during the sermon, it reminds of certain Protestant environments. Saying it during the epiclesis doesn't bother me, especially since I'm one of those people. I think you have a different experience of it, because people don't act all emotional when saying it at my church. Everyone says it plainly and in unison without disrupting the orderliness of the service.

Sticking out is the weird thing, I think. If I'm at a church where everyone sits down at certain parts, as a guest I'll sit too. If I was there all the time, then I might stand off to the side. It seems odd to me when people continue to stand right in the middle of everyone else sitting, like it's some kind of a challenge because they're more holy than everyone else. Of course I guess that's me judging and getting my mind off track.