Pathfinder Battles: Heroes & Monsters Brick

Pathfinder RPG combat comes to life on your tabletop with Heroes & Monsters, the debut release in the new Pathfinder Battles prepainted miniatures line! Produced in cooperation with Paizo Publishing, Heroes & Monsters presents a fascinating array of 40 beautifully painted miniatures perfect for use with the Pathfinder RPG or any fantasy miniatures game! From the brave Gnome Fighter to the mighty evil lich, Heroes & Monsters offers a wide range of player characters and dungeon denizens that make a perfect start to your Pathfinder Battles collection!

Purchasers should get no to very few duplicate figures in a brick. Buyers who purchase factory-sealed cases should get a nearly complete set of figures. (As with any randomized product, collation is not guaranteed.)

I love the idea of this product, however I have two things that have come to mind:

1) Given that the few distributors that we have here in Australia already price gouge the crap out of us, I would suggest that the price of Pathfinder minis here will be unaffordable to most gamers. The only real option is to purchase it directly from Paizo. Now this is great if, like me, you get directly from Paizo now anyway, but for those who don't (and many refuse to buy from overseas), its not going to help the product sell here.

2) I really think that to bring down the price overall of this awesome product, Paizo needs a reason to sell more to non-Pathfinder players. I think a good way would be to introduce a small battles game similar to the D&D Minis line. At least it gives non-Pathfinder players (and lets include non-RPG players as well) a reason to collect. It would open the market for new people to be introduced to Pathfinder who might otherwise just like collectible miniatures.

I just wanted to say that while I do understand the industry reasons cited here and in the FAQ, I think that the non-collectible aspect has somehow escaped you guys. 'Rares' v 'commons' only matters when they have relative strengths and/or use cases. Minis have none of that.

No. DDM released 21 sets. It was VERY successful. Heroclix is the only pre-painted minis line that has done better. Heck, most CCGs would kill to have 21 releases.

What eventually killed DDM was:
saturation - DMs had large enough collections they bought less of newer sets
4e - DDM skirmish converted to 2.0 rules to match 4e, which killed the skirmish game (as predicted) resulting in less buyers
manufacturing cost - WotC could no longer produce their minis to sell at the $15 price point

I just want to know if the Rise of the Runelords set is actually tied to that AP or if it's just a marketing gimmick.

I think you can sleep soundly knowing that Paizo probably wouldn't release a 60-mini set for an adventure path that no one can purchase.

Agreed. Paizo has been hinting rather strongly that a reprint of RotRL for Pathfinder RPG, probably as a hardcover tied to the 5th anniversary of Pathfinder in 2012 was something that was being strongly considered.

I'm pretty sure that the minis line for June 2012 pretty much squashes any lingering doubts on whether it will happen. In what way, with what content changed or added, remains to be seen.

You're real bastards, you know that? I'm over my plasticrack addiction and now you do this to me? Curse you!

;-)

What I want to know: Do you have any more information about the distribution? If not, when will you/we get that info?

What I mean is this: The Set has 40 figures.

How many are large, and how many are small/medium?

What is the distribution between common, uncommon and rare figures in the size categories? Since those are single packs, not group boosters like DDM had, what are the likelihoods of the rarities showing up? Something like 50% common, 30% uncommon, 20% rare?

I'd like to get a picture at what I'm getting when I buy a case. My fellow OC completionists are surely just as eager for these answers as I am.

You're real bastards, you know that? I'm over my plasticrack addiction and now you do this to me? Curse you!

;-)

What I want to know: Do you have any more information about the distribution? If not, when will you/we get that info?

What I mean is this: The Set has 40 figures.

How many are large, and how many are small/medium?

What is the distribution between common, uncommon and rare figures in the size categories? Since those are single packs, not group boosters like DDM had, what are the likelihoods of the rarities showing up? Something like 50% common, 30% uncommon, 20% rare?

I'd like to get a picture at what I'm getting when I buy a case. My fellow OC completionists are surely just as eager for these answers as I am.

We helped WizKids determine a preliminary list of commonalities for the 40 figures, but it's still subject to change slightly based on manufacturing needs. I doubt that will be available until the full set list is released, and (as I mentioned before) WizKids likes to reveal those much closer to the actual release.

I think only WizKids knows the relative distributions, and I don't think they usually reveal those.

We do not currently have any concrete plans regarding a separate miniatures game. Is that something you'd like to see?

I and a lot of my friends had an amazingly fun few years playing the D&D miniatures game. We have thousands of little plastic guys that we spent hours doing little scenarios with. It was big business for the FLGS too.

I would love to see some kind of skirmish combat rules to go along with them, but that would require them to also have some kind of stat-card to use with them.

It doesn't have to be super fast play either, we can understand the rules if they're complex. ;)

I am very excited, yet also wonder if I will be able to afford them. How long will Wizkids be planning to keep a set in print? I hope they hang around longer than a Wotci set would so I have a decent shot at them.

I am very excited, yet also wonder if I will be able to afford them. How long will Wizkids be planning to keep a set in print? I hope they hang around longer than a Wotci set would so I have a decent shot at them.

I honestly hope they don't.

The "hanging around" of sets in the DDM line was the spike that killed them. They overproduced in 2006 and those figures are STILL in the retail channel in a lot of new boosters.

I'd rather they underproduced than overproduced. THAT is the sort of thing that ensures we will see more minis produced over time and stocked by retailers.

I am very excited, yet also wonder if I will be able to afford them. How long will Wizkids be planning to keep a set in print? I hope they hang around longer than a Wotci set would so I have a decent shot at them.

I'm sure the answer to that will be determined by the rate of sales.

(Wizards actually kept their sets around for quite a long time, and even reprinted many of them long after their initial release.)

I am very excited, yet also wonder if I will be able to afford them. How long will Wizkids be planning to keep a set in print? I hope they hang around longer than a Wotci set would so I have a decent shot at them.

I'm sure the answer to that will be determined by the rate of sales.

(Wizards actually kept their sets around for quite a long time, and even reprinted many of them long after their initial release.)

I am very excited, yet also wonder if I will be able to afford them. How long will Wizkids be planning to keep a set in print? I hope they hang around longer than a Wotci set would so I have a decent shot at them.

I honestly hope they don't.

The "hanging around" of sets in the DDM line was the spike that killed them. They overproduced in 2006 and those figures are STILL in the retail channel in a lot of new boosters.

I'd rather they underproduced than overproduced. THAT is the sort of thing that ensures we will see more minis produced over time and stocked by retailers.

See, the thing about having to plunk down 275ish to get a complete set, when I don't have that kind of walking around change as an adjunct, means I won't buy any if they aren't around long enough for me to lay my hands on some greenbacks? See?

To be clear, it will be up to WizKids to determine whether it makes sense to reprint sets after they sell out. I'm sure we'll offer advice, but I certainly can't promise that they will or will not reprint anything.

I know this was a bit of snarkiness but it actually illustrates something that I think will could make this line even better than DDM, at least from my standpoint.

Like others I spent waaaaaaaay more money than I should have buying DDM boosters to construct a collection of opponent minis for my tabletop game. I've got lots of nice goblins, orcs, dragons, undead and other critters that fit right into a PFRPG game. I didn't have to paint them and they're substantially lighter than pewter minis.

But I've also got an entire box of the weird WTF critters that WOTC created just for DDM. Kruthiks and Greenspawn Razorfiends don't show up much in Pathfinder modules (funny that). These things are basically useless to me, unless I drop them in as fiat encounters, while I have to hunt on Paizo's singles store to collect enough elementals and other core creatures for the encounters as written.

So I have every hope that this line, by being aligned with the Pathfinder RPG (instead of a separate game) will have fewer mismatch creatures for that WTF box.

I want to throw in my support (for what it's worth) to have a minis game independent of the full Pathfinder rules. I was a huge collector of the DDM lines, and eventually started playing the minis game as a way of justifying my ever-increasing expenditures on them. Of course, it then fed my purchasing, because I started to appreciate figures based on their rule cards rather than the fig itself, because two or three would be perfect for my warband and I had to buy more packs, then cases, then...

To be clear, it will be up to WizKids to determine whether it makes sense to reprint sets after they sell out. I'm sure we'll offer advice, but I certainly can't promise that they will or will not reprint anything.

Let's just skip all these complications and you and Lisa can adopt me. Just think! You'll be the only couple among your friends with a 41 year old kid! You'll be able to say to people, "My son the Dr. [finish statement to annoy the hell out of friends]."

For those of you who are disappointed in the random aspect of the miniatures, please read the following taken from the FAQ attached to the press release. You still may not agree, but at least you will understand why we are doing what we are doing.

-Lisa

That's fine, but for some the random element is undesirable to keep it mild, I am aware this is a decent strategy and the reasons are really good for doing this. I will say however these are reasons that makes it easier and cheaper on "your" side that is as the seller and makes it more difficult for the buyer (though cheaper), at least from my point of view. There can be a collectible aspect and I do hope for the success of this that there will develop a collectible sentimentality for this product. All this said however I was excited about these products until I heard about the random aspect, then I was turned off on the whole thing. Nice idea just not for me.

For me personally I rather pay more for a lower quality and variety then buy random packs, when I buy a miniature for a game I want it to be the right one, not a "ohh might possibly be usable". That said, I am probably not the ideal costumer for this type of product anyway, so that might make me even more oppose to this type of product to begin with.

Let me just say "YAY!"
Once I get my annual bonus, I'll be picking up one of the cases.

On another note though, I just want to say, count me out on a miniature game tied to the mini line - I'm a big fan of RPG + Mini being the primary focus.

For those who aren't involved in the wargaming community, there's a pretty big explosion going on in that community right now, with several games from Europe coming to our shores recently (Infinity being a high-end example).

Honestly, I think aside from the pre-painted part, competing on a mini's game alone would relegate the product to those largely looking with nostalgia to the DDM of old.

I will say however these are reasons that makes it easier and cheaper on "your" side that is as the seller and makes it more difficult for the buyer (though cheaper), at least from my point of view.

Making it easier and cheaper to produce makes the difference between a non-existent product and an actual one.

Although it does sound like they plan on making some encounter packs later that will be pre-packaged with specific groups, which may be better for your needs. And if you really need to get a specific mini, there is always the excellent pewter Reaper line to buy from.

Kruthiks and Greenspawn Razorfiends don't show up much in Pathfinder modules (funny that).

Just wanted to point out that the Greenspawn (and other Spawn of Tiamat) were actually created for Red Hand of Doom, a module written by some guy named Jacobs ;)

While true... I wasn't really a fan of the whole dragonspawn idea in the first place. AKA: That was one of the parts of "Red Hand of Doom" that I didn't come up with the idea for, and that I would have done differently had I been 100% in charge of the adventure. :-P

That said, I really like how the greenspawn razorfiend turned out in mini form.

While I'm not thrilled about the randomness, I understand the business need. I'm also glad to see that there's more thought towards using the minis in a typical RPG to determine the rarities. I never could stand having some named ogre or something be a rare instead of a cool monster.

I hope the promo figure for Rise of the Runelords is a Huge White Dragon - while there are other Huge creatures in the AP, this one would have the most likely re-use value in other games. (Though a Black Magga mini would be very cool!)

That's fine, but for some the random element is undesirable to keep it mild, I am aware this is a decent strategy and the reasons are really good for doing this. I will say however these are reasons that makes it easier and cheaper on "your" side that is as the seller and makes it more difficult for the buyer (though cheaper), at least from my point of view.

I think that might be the part that's not obvious from the outside: the random element doesn't just make it "cheaper" or "more profitable"—it makes it possible.

But I've also got an entire box of the weird WTF critters that WOTC created just for DDM.

+1.

No, +1000.

Finding one of each elemental (you know, frequently appearing monsters in adventures and [u]able to be summoned by PCs[/u]) was well nigh impossible, but gigantic bipedal aligators and elephants and weird half-dragon-rhinos, check.

I know this was a bit of snarkiness but it actually illustrates something that I think will could make this line even better than DDM, at least from my standpoint.

[...]

But I've also got an entire box of the weird WTF critters that WOTC created just for DDM.

Since Paizo has spoiled me, I demand the best of all possible worlds (since that is their motto, or at least the motto of their Campaign Setting book!).

What I mean is that I'm all for a "skirmish game" rule set a lot like DDM where they create stats for all Pathfinder miniatures Wizkids will make. I'm not sure whether Paizo will make those rules, or maybe Wizkids, or they license it.

But I'm all against stuff that is there solely to support that game. That includes really weird critters that are not in any of the monster books/sections (i.e. the Bestiary/ 2/3/4/N, the Bestiaries in Adventure Path installments, extra monsters from Campaign Setting books etc) or are later put in there as an alibi.

That also means that the needs of the minis game won't influence rarity. I don't want a fugly miniature of some uninspired concept like guy in armour with shield to be rare just because the stats say he's "Schmuckor The Paynebringa" - a guy that was just made up and given really powerful minis game stats to justify his rarity.

DDM was really bad like this sometimes, and became worse at it by the time I quit: Some of the rares were nobodies, the sculpts and paintjobs were laughable, but they were rare because they were given really great stats.

I have no problem with a rare Runelord Karzoug, but that's because a Karzoug mini would have to be a lot more awesome and detailed and intricate than "run-of-the-mill town guard". The guy has expensive robes and wears several dozen ioun stones imbedded in his flesh, and the mini better showed them.

Here's an idea for the future (assuming that you'll be opening cases yourselves to sell singles...):

Put together the following with a slight discount over purchasing them separately. Include the following:

A Pathfinder Module

A couple of corresponding Flip-maps or Map Packs

Enough corresponding minis to run the module

When we first started selling D&D singles, we made up a bunch of themed "critter packs," but keeping them stocked ended up being too much effort to keep up. While the idea is conceptually great, it's probably just too labor-intensive to justify.