This is the point where I get irritable because people are giving shit advice about business. If it was programming advice, I wouldn't mind. If it's business advice, that steps into my territory, and you better be reasonably intelligent or I'll tear you apart for being arrogant.

This is one of thise times.

Najdorf Wrote:-The lead programmer is the most important role for this kind of game and unfortunately it's also the hardest to find, as it takes a LOT of skill-experience to handle something like that.

Najdorf Wrote:-The lead designer should be the lead programmer or the the chance of success is very reduced.

Which is like saying "The producer should be the cameraman or you fail". No, that's a REALLY stupid comment. That's so incredibly stupid I don't even really want to retort to it, but I will.

A programmer's job is to program. His best place is to be put in a position where he can tinker and work, as I've known when working on other programming projects. Sticking him as "Mr. Design Head" means that he has to do TWO projects, not one.

Your misconception comes from your work itself. If you've done small projects (like small games), indeed it's good to have the same person doing that job because they can tinker the game more directly. However, on this scale, and in this level (where we intend to go retail), it's managerial suicide. This is a freaking MMO- we need concept art, design work, and all sorts of 2D work. I mean, read page one of this thread- the "Superprogrammer" concept is really stupid, even I know that with my limited knowledge.

Najdorf Wrote:-If you do not have serious programming experience your design documents will probably be flawed, difficult to implement and generally useless.

My design documents do not include requests for specific code. It's a business proposal outlining the fine parts of the game. I've worked in the gaming industry before (way back in the old days of really shitty indie games that I should have been shot for making) and in reviewing games- I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm asking is do-able, and I can even generally give people an idea of how to script it. I don't know specific code, but trust me, I'm not completely out of the loop.

Another point- how would that be possible when designers work on professional teams all the time with no programing experience? Hell, even major game studios have divided developer and programming teams. That comment (much like the others) makes no sense.

Najdorf Wrote:-A good idea is to get the code-logic part of the program done (and well) before any effort is exerted for art-sounds-music-marketing-website-whatever.

No, because then if you make a decision that may affect the gameplay you don't want to tell the programmer to "delete 50% of your work and go back". Why would I attempt to create a game without a gameplan? That's like trying to paint a masterpiece by throwing paint at a canvas until it looks good.

Actually, I want to do SOMETHING like that. Not the logic or code part, but actually the 2D engine (such as finding out what APIs we'll need and so forth). But the logic? That's a bit early.

Najdorf Wrote:-If lead programmer is the only programmer (as it seems from your writings) he should get at least 20% of profits.

Right, let's give 1/5 of the money to 1/50th of the development team. Hey, and while we're at it, let's give 40% to me, because that will TOTALLY be good financial work. Let's screw the fact that we have to pay server bills and advertise the game, and just give everyone a huge chunk of money that they didn't really work for so we can all jump around and party about what great developers we are for a game that would collapse on it's own financial instability.

Are you mentally ill?

Najdorf Wrote:-Why do I bother...

Good question.

Look, my perspective on this is such: I'm working this game like people work a movie. I come in with a general idea, find people to design everything around it, and then actually do the development. I know good and well that most indie projects run differently, but THIS IS NOT AN INDIE PROJECT, AND CHANCES HAVE IT THAT YOU HAVEN'T WORKED ON ANYTHING LIKE THIS BEFORE. The person above is a good example of an "Armchair professional"- he thinks he knows quite a bit about project management, but his opinions (such as giving 1/5 of all of our profits to one employee) are so incredibly stupid everyone around him wants to slap their heads and kill him out of mercy.

Look, I know I'm no programming professional. If I was, I would program this myself. However, I'm not a dumbass when it comes to programming, as I've dabbled in it for years. Assuming I'm a 10 year old and trying to take the "teacher" route is stupid. The people on the first page of this thread were quite helpful- but "Najdorf", you're probably given me the most stupid set of recommendations I've ever seen in my life.

KirkS Wrote:This is the point where I get irritable because people are giving shit advice about business. If it was programming advice, I wouldn't mind. If it's business advice, that steps into my territory, and you better be reasonably intelligent or I'll tear you apart for being arrogant.

This is one of thise times.

Thise ? You clearly mean "these". First of all, if you search these forums, or in fact any gamedev forums you will get umpteen "write my MMO for me please" type requests. While you expect this from 14 year old kids with ideas beyond their capabilities, you do yourself a great disservice by actually being quite arrogant yourself.

Quote:No, that's a REALLY stupid comment. That's so incredibly stupid I don't even really want to retort to it, but I will.

Let's see what you have to say...

Quote:A programmer's job is to program. His best place is to be put in a position where he can tinker and work, as I've known when working on other programming projects. Sticking him as "Mr. Design Head" means that he has to do TWO projects, not one.

If I have read this thread correctly you are looking to fill a "Lead Programmer"/"System Architect" type. This type of programmer has a rather lot of experience in writing code in his field of expertise, so can convert your "design document" into something that can actually be translated into code.

Quote:Your misconception comes from your work itself. If you've done small projects (like small games), indeed it's good to have the same person doing that job because they can tinker the game more directly.

While many on this forum are one-man-bands where it comes to games, many have full time "proper jobs" sometimes even *real* software engineers/computer scientists - So be careful about making assumptions about recruiting from the Indy sector, someone more knowledgeable will set you straight - perhaps in a manner that comes across as insulting to you.

Quote: However, on this scale, and in this level (where we intend to go retail), it's managerial suicide. This is a freaking MMO- we need concept art, design work, and all sorts of 2D work. I mean, read page one of this thread- the "Superprogrammer" concept is really stupid, even I know that with my limited knowledge.

This I agree with you, you seem to "get" that a MMO is a lot of work. However from your first post you were not entirely clear on exactly what kind of help you required.

Quote:My design documents do not include requests for specific code. It's a business proposal outlining the fine parts of the game. I've worked in the gaming industry before (way back in the old days of really shitty indie games that I should have been shot for making) and in reviewing games- I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm asking is do-able, and I can even generally give people an idea of how to script it. I don't know specific code, but trust me, I'm not completely out of the loop.

See my Systems Architect comment above.

Quote:Another point- how would that be possible when designers work on professional teams all the time with no programing experience? Hell, even major game studios have divided developer and programming teams. That comment (much like the others) makes no sense.

"developer and programming teams" ? They're the same thing! If you mean "designer and programming teams" then you're only half right - they have to interact, otherwise the great compromise that is the project (getting decent art, working with the engine + game code) will just fall apart.

Quote:No, because then if you make a decision that may affect the gameplay you don't want to tell the programmer to "delete 50% of your work and go back". Why would I attempt to create a game without a gameplan? That's like trying to paint a masterpiece by throwing paint at a canvas until it looks good.

Sometimes that has to be done, it's indicative of an unimplementable design, poor design documents, lack of understanding of the target platform etc. There has been numerous occasions where complete modules have had to be rewritten to achieve specifications, or worse still completely redesigned.

When you start a large project you start off with a proof of concept/wireframe with little or no assets (just enough to know what's going on) This can be in several stages (ie. storybording and demo art coupled with a bare bones proof of concept).

Quote:Actually, I want to do SOMETHING like that. Not the logic or code part, but actually the 2D engine (such as finding out what APIs we'll need and so forth). But the logic? That's a bit early.

The GAME LOGIC *IS* IMPORTANT - write that down 100 times, and if you still don't get it write it 100 times more till you actually get it. This *is* your game, it must be apparent that the core ideals of the game are hammered out from the start. What are the goals, what features are required, what would be nice to have and what would be icing on the cake if we have time later (A Roadmap of future expansion of the project will help here)

Quote:Right, let's give 1/5 of the money to 1/50th of the development team. Hey, and while we're at it, let's give 40% to me, because that will TOTALLY be good financial work. Let's screw the fact that we have to pay server bills and advertise the game, and just give everyone a huge chunk of money that they didn't really work for so we can all jump around and party about what great developers we are for a game that would collapse on it's own financial instability.

You make that sound as if you're not going to be making any money on this project. That isn't practical business sense. If you're heading to retail and are serious about such a project then you should have some financial backing (yes, evil VC or a 2nd mortgage on your house and a buisness loan)

Your offer of 3% of net profits capped at 40K is frankly insulting, you're expecting people to work for nothing with the promise of 40K maybe down the line. If there was a serious offer then it would be a uncapped percentage or a contracted staged payment - or a negotiated settlement with guarantees.

Here is a situation for you to consider: You promise your dev team profitshare, but a month or two into the project VC pull the plug, or you go bankrupt. Sorry guys, no money. *dev team wander off* .... to get back to some real life, licking their wounds as they were expecting some compensation. However you take the code and restart the project under a similar name, and get some other VC to fund marketing. Result - some really annoyed dev guys, and you with no liability.

Quote:Are you mentally ill?

Good question.

*chuckle*

Quote:Look, my perspective on this is such: I'm working this game like people work a movie. I come in with a general idea, find people to design everything around it, and then actually do the development. I know good and well that most indie projects run differently, but THIS IS NOT AN INDIE PROJECT, AND CHANCES HAVE IT THAT YOU HAVEN'T WORKED ON ANYTHING LIKE THIS BEFORE. The person above is a good example of an "Armchair professional"- he thinks he knows quite a bit about project management, but his opinions (such as giving 1/5 of all of our profits to one employee) are so incredibly stupid everyone around him wants to slap their heads and kill him out of mercy.

A very arrogant statement. You're also exaggerating what others have mentioned about adequate compensation.

Quote:Look, I know I'm no programming professional. If I was, I would program this myself. However, I'm not a dumbass when it comes to programming, as I've dabbled in it for years. Assuming I'm a 10 year old and trying to take the "teacher" route is stupid. The people on the first page of this thread were quite helpful- but "Najdorf", you're probably given me the most stupid set of recommendations I've ever seen in my life.

[/quote]

If biting the head off a guy who's first language is not English is your thing, I doubt that you are an effective project manager. Calling people mentally ill isn't going to win you any friends here. I hope you're successful in your endeavours but I do hope you see this thread as a learning experience in how not to recruit talent from the indie scene.

To be fair, he's been given rubbish advice, treated like your average 12 year old, and generally derided. I don't blame him for being irritated. Najdorf's post was particularly absurd.

That said, I don't think that "3%, capped at $40k" is the rate to be paying your lead programmer for a project this complex. An MMORPG isn't a one-year project, it's more like a 3-year project, so $120k is more reasonable. Then you're asking the programmer to work for that length of time with no pay, which means they need to be making something like double that for three years beforehand so they can afford to take the time off.

I know you say you're looking for greenhorns, so maybe you think that $25k/y is a more accurate salary than $40k, but you're still looking at $75k over the three years, and they still have to have $75k saved up before they can do it. I don't think you're going to find someone willing (or able) to work under those terms.

Also, I don't know of any fresh college graduate programmer who could lead an MMORPG team successfully. In my experience, the kind of software design talent required for a project of that magnitude takes three or more years' actual industry experience to acquire. And no, someone who can make small shareware games successfully doesn't (necessarily) have the talent -- there's a big difference between 20k lines of code and 200k lines of code.

So, yes, you have a right to get aggravated at some of what's been said, but I don't think it makes your proposition any less absurd. If you want to find people who can do what you want, you need to pay rates they can accept, as they work. That means you have to have some (venture) capital, or an existing business model you can gradually scale up.

You'll understand if I really don't care what the majority of you have to say. After all, I'm not stupid- I'm fully aware you guys posted this seemingly immediately after I critiqued a member.

Sorry, but let's be honest with ourselves for a second- why would I even bother with some half-baked fan club? I was hoping this community would be more intelligent than this. Some of you are obviously very nice, while it seems as if some of you really have some sort of bone to pick with anyone who you think isn't of your in-group.

Just like I've done in other threads, I'll just put it this way- contact me if you're interested, refrain from bothering me if not. I obviously really don't have the time to deal with trolls.

OneSadCookie Wrote:That said, I don't think that "3%, capped at $40k" is the rate to be paying your lead programmer for a project this complex. An MMORPG isn't a one-year project, it's more like a 3-year project, so $120k is more reasonable. Then you're asking the programmer to work for that length of time with no pay, which means they need to be making something like double that for three years beforehand so they can afford to take the time off.

I know you say you're looking for greenhorns, so maybe you think that $25k/y is a more accurate salary than $40k, but you're still looking at $75k over the three years, and they still have to have $75k saved up before they can do it. I don't think you're going to find someone willing (or able) to work under those terms.

Also, I don't know of any fresh college graduate programmer who could lead an MMORPG team successfully. In my experience, the kind of software design talent required for a project of that magnitude takes three or more years' actual industry experience to acquire. And no, someone who can make small shareware games successfully doesn't (necessarily) have the talent -- there's a big difference between 20k lines of code and 200k lines of code.

So, yes, you have a right to get aggravated at some of what's been said, but I don't think it makes your proposition any less absurd. If you want to find people who can do what you want, you need to pay rates they can accept, as they work. That means you have to have some (venture) capital, or an existing business model you can gradually scale up.

Between me and you, I'm not actually sold on my own pay system. But you all have to understand, no-one is going to be making any major money on this initially.

To be honest, I may run the payments uncapped. I'm not going to hand out 20% of earnings, but I do agree that the cap is low. The cap would apply only to people who are going to be a MINOR member of the programming team- I already have some people in the works already. They're getting paid much more, obviously.

So, yet again, I need to clarify- there are other people on this team, and they are being paid adequately- but we just need the good old back up team and people to get their own opinions on here. Like I've mentioned before, I understand that a "superprogrammer" doesn't exist.

If he doesn't speak English well and/or has trouble understanding the subject matter, than giving advice is a bit of a stupid maneuver, is it not? And, despite your connotations, "20%" is the same in virtually every language. It's stupid no matter what language it's in.

Edit: Bother, you've posted basically what I was going to suggest that you post while I was writing my post and now it seems harsh and unjust. Oops.

What I was going to say:

Quote:Hmm, this thread turned nasty...

So, to recap the score
KirkS, the programmers here would be more affable if you were more respectful.
Unfortunately your basic premise (I need coders for a MMORPG and I won't tell anyone what my idea is because I'm afraid you'll all steal it) is one see around here quite frequently (I mean, I even ran a MMO for a while before the bugs in my delusional little open source based code caught up and swamped me).

I am now going to take a stab at proposing an organizational model for hiring employees for a simple MMORPG:

1. Find one or two content people (music and graphics) and come up with a impressive game idea (1-3 pictures and 1 minute of music are all that is required to prove skill).
2. Show off this stuff. Finding a lead programmer isn't like hiring a burger flipper. The person you need will have to be swayed into wanting to work for you. You either have to inspire (through the game design and art) or pay well (concrete money from a respectable source). I can't count how many people there are out there sitting lonely with nothing but their brilliant game design or art and a nice protective "NDA" between them and any chance of success. As much as I wish it were otherwise, great ideas are virtually worthless until implemented. For example: I would love to make a game combining 2D RPG elements planetside and escape velocity like space combat, but there is now way that I'll be able to start this for two years. Even though I think it's an awesome idea, it's worthless until realized.
3. Once you get the main engine functional, *then* get the 20 other members.

And a general tip:
Cater to the programmer. Without a good programmer there is no game. A game can have poor graphics, sounds, design, management, and be buggy as the amazon, but still be a game with a programmer. Without one it's still just an idea.

You're on a programming forum. Programmers like to give advise even if (like me) they're only qualified by a stretch of the imagination.

And lastly, you look like you might be capable of pulling this project, but you will have to rethink a good deal of what you have in mind. You're targeting something within the range of possibility, you're confident, and you're 90% on track. Unfortunately, the snappy manner with which you have reacted to others here has made me believe that you would probably destroy any team that you created. Granted, almost everyone posting here (myself included) is being snarky (because of the aforementioned MMORPG designer plague), but a little bit of tolerance online goes a long way.

I think people here are just tired of the hopeless MMO projects that keep getting posted here and elsewhere (not saying that your project is hopeless).

Personally, I will never join another project posted online; too much overambition that quickly settles into a fine layer of disappointment. People have great ideas, but most don't possess the ability to make it a reality management-wise, let alone on the production end.

I think the #1 rule in recruiting for MMOs is quickly becoming: Provide something viable for your candidates to attach to; a tech demo, proof of capital, a business plan, even concept art or a biography of your team. That way, even if your proposal is crap (not saying that yours is), people can see that you're serious.

What you should do is take your current team and start developing a proof of concept. That way you'll have some material for the world to drool over. Not only that, but you will have proven to yourselves that you're capable of at least a working concept.

Quote:Right, let's give 1/5 of the money to 1/50th of the development team. Hey, and while we're at it, let's give 40% to me, because that will TOTALLY be good financial work. Let's screw the fact that we have to pay server bills and advertise the game, and just give everyone a huge chunk of money that they didn't really work for so we can all jump around and party about what great developers we are for a game that would collapse on it's own financial instability.

This proves you're totally clueless, you're hiring 1 programmer for a team of 50... Programming the game is not 1/50th of the work it's at least 1/5th. It's arguably the most important part.

And of course server bills and advertising are factored out when considering profits, I'm not saying 20% of SALES, but you dont really understand any of this do you?

About the designer-programmer thing, ok they dont have to be the same person. Still the designer should have deep understanding of programming and keep discussing every part of the design with the lead programmer for feasibility.

Quote:No, because then if you make a decision that may affect the gameplay you don't want to tell the programmer to "delete 50% of your work and go back". Why would I attempt to create a game without a gameplan

Sure, in the "game logic" the gameplay is included. Settle out the gameplay and (after) the code, but dont bother with the rest until you're done with those. (I think we agree on this)

Generally speaking you have 2 ways of doing a project like the one you intend:
-You are a tech guy and do the hard part, you can find people that trust you and help you for a % on profits. ("indie" way)
-You are a business guy and give out fixed SALARIES to your tech guys, and take on yourself the risk of failure. ("corporate" way)

You are trying to get people to do the hard work for you for a (ridiculous) percentage. This is not how it works. Nobody of talent will work for a 3% on a project that will most likely give 0 profits. Not even 20% really. Pay a fixed 30k and someone will do it. And you keep "all" the profits

I don't mean to turn this thread into a flamewar. However, this post is indicating some of you are still confused- obviously a problem. So, with no further adieu, I promise to keep nice with this person and just outline further into the project.

Najdorf Wrote:This proves you're totally clueless, you're hiring 1 programmer for a team of 50... Programming the game is not 1/50th of the work it's at least 1/5th. It's arguably the most important part.

Like I said before, we're running multiple programmers. Superprogrammer, etc, I've typed this out about 10 times now. My own fault for not making it obvious, but I suppose I'll say it again:

I'M LOOKING FOR PROGRAMMING TEAM MEMBERS, NOT ONE SINGLE PROGRAMMER TO DO THE ENTIRE JOB.

For example, by the way, I'm going to need someone experienced with LUA- I'm gonna see if I can get some of our C++ guys to make LUA the language for the AI and whatnot. I've loved LUA ever since I noticed it being used in Garry's Mod 10, it's pretty lightweight and VERY user friendly. Not the kind of thing I'd use for the entire game, but a great feature for the AI.

Najdorf Wrote:And of course server bills and advertising are factored out when considering profits, I'm not saying 20% of SALES, but you dont really understand any of this do you?

Sales insinuates gross profit. What you're referring to is net profit, which is still too much, really. Like I said- 50 team members. I may not know how to program an entire game in C++, but I've read enough prospectus documents on companies to know how these things work.

But yeah, explanation time. I'm going to automatically shave off 40% of ALL profits and move them to my corporation. From there, they will be used to pay advertising fees, website costs, blah blah. The remaining 60% will be divided up between workers, not counting myself. My actual profit is the 40% or so, but I'm going to use 99% of it toward paying- this is my project, I'll take the costs. Really, it means I'll be making no money, because I'm known to blast away advertising budgets like I'm insane.

Najdorf Wrote:About the designer-programmer thing, ok they dont have to be the same person. Still the designer should have deep understanding of programming and keep discussing every part of the design with the lead programmer for feasibility.

No kidding, which is why I not only have us all linked up using telephones and e-mail, but I have a huge "online office" script running on one of my servers so we can discuss things on there. It's like a forum, except with scheduling, uploads, et al. I understand that we're going to have to keep in tune, that's why I spend a lot of time gathering information from everyone.

Najdorf Wrote:Generally speaking you have 2 ways of doing a project like the one you intend:
-You are a tech guy and do the hard part, you can find people that trust you and help you for a % on profits. ("indie" way)
-You are a business guy and give out fixed SALARIES to your tech guys, and take on yourself the risk of failure. ("corporate" way)

You are trying to get people to do the hard work for you for a (ridiculous) percentage. This is not how it works. Nobody of talent will work for a 3% on a project that will most likely give 0 profits. Not even 20% really. Pay a fixed 30k and someone will do it. And you keep "all" the profits

There are more ways to do this, you're overgeneralizing. But actually, this gives me a good platform to explain how we work:

I am running this as a corporate entity, ergo I actually represent a corporation. The papers are being filed to officially set me as the CEO of said corporation right at this minute. This basically means that my job will be to handle the corporate end of things.

However, that does not make this project any less "indie", I suppose. We're running on a shoestring budget because that gives us maximum sales potential. Sure, my company would have the credit to pull out a business loan for like $500k and pay everyone up front- but I'm not doing that. It would be incredibly stupid of me to take out a loan so everyone can play with their money without getting the project done first.

With all being said, I'm looking for upward-mobile people who want to become professionals. This is not a "volunteer" position- but the goal here is NOT to pay your rent or anything else (trust me, I wish it was..). This position is to find people who have sheer talent who want an opportunity to become big in the industry and launch us off. That's why I'm so irritated with "self proclaimed geniuses"- because I'm looking for people hungry for opportunity, not people who are satisfied with their own sense of accomplishment.

I fully understand you guys think I'm a bullshitter, and for good reason: I myself have seen HUNDREDS of MMORPG projects that have failed horribly. That gives you all every bit of a right to e-mail me with stuff like "You're full of crap". However, this is the PERFECT time to jump on this market- WoW is getting old, and there are huge demographics that have been untouched by this field of gaming. If I can pull a team together and get this done, this game will be unstoppable.

Oh yeah, and the NDA thing is crap, I know. It comes with the whole fun of being a corporate entity- I actually have to worry about competition now. I know it makes me sound like I don't have anything, but I'm doing the whole secrecy thing because there are actually people (whom I know) who are trying to get this info purely to "get back at me" for various things, so I'm locking this stuff down in contract form. Shitty, I know.

Anyway, I apologize to the mods for letting this become a flamewar for a brief spell. I'll be glad to field questions or help people out, but I'm not really going to respond to any direct contesting opinions any more. If you want to do that, e-mail me, this is not the venue. However, positive comments and questions will be answered ASAP on here. Sound fair?

WOW we are heated today. Come on, this is a dev forum, not some 13-year-old's guestbook!

I based my first post on the premise that you were looking for one Supercoder, which you've made clear is not the case. Looks like some people are still misinterpreting it. Some of the blame does lie on your first post, but after clarification, it shouldn't have been a problem anymore. However, keep in mind that most of us are the indie-est of the indie, and our business sense may be different from yours, especially if you're a business major.

As I said before, you do seem more competent than our usual project lead-wannabes. Just please use fewer capital letters. Italics and boldface are much more stylish.

I probably shouldn't bother addressing the rest of us, because I really don't have a right to do that. Let's just please use some common sense.