-or a slightly older/hardly used model 16" with Predator system, rear BUS for $900, but this used one has no nickel plating on the inside of the receiver (bolt and carrier and such are still plated, just lacking the new nickel plate inside the receiver).
http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/photos/P-415-16-P4X-SF%20B29.jpg

I sent an email to POF with a few questions yesterday- and i need to decide on the used one today... grrr

when i get a reply from pof, i will post my questions/answers

Ironballs

08-11-2006, 8:34 AM

I so love the idea of the 18" but making it a target crown and using the monsterman grip and detachable mags...

anotherone

08-11-2006, 9:52 AM

I so love the idea of the 18" but making it a target crown and using the monsterman grip and detachable mags...

Why target crown? Just remove the Flash Hider and put on a thread protector.

Ironballs

08-11-2006, 10:02 AM

better accuracy

rssslvr

08-11-2006, 10:04 AM

I really like the 18" recon model

bwiese

08-11-2006, 10:09 AM

I've handled the POF 'Predator' upper at the SHOT Show. It's _heavy_. The successor to Predator upper (w/round handguards) is likely to be heavy too.

I wouldn't ordinarily expect as much accuracy as w/a regular AR (that piston could rattle a bit during firing, or perhaps even start moving a bit while bullet's still in barrel ??)

Your regular AR may get dirty but it'll keep operating fine. (Are you running Wolf? That gets a tad dirtier.) Just as long as you don't let it crust up for weeks and go shooting again, it's moot.

Clean when you get home from the range, it only takes 5 min max.

The piston uppers non-solve a non-problem. Buy it if you have money to burn, better to spend it on ACOG and ammo...

Plan B is to buy the Colt piston upper. I handled that at the SHOT Show, and while my comments are still the above in general, at least it's better balanced.

thmpr

08-11-2006, 10:23 AM

Hey Bill,
You hit it right on the money. I am waiting patiently for the Colt piston upper as well.

SemiAutoSam

08-11-2006, 10:29 AM

Any thoughts on the retail price of the colt piston upper ? and options ?

IE a 20 inch version or a 18 inch version ? flat top or carryhandle?

xenophobe

08-11-2006, 12:04 PM

POF is bulky, even with the slimline Predator rail. Colt would be great, but they're not available yet. I'm getting a custom Leitner-Wise gas piston system built on a Noveske barrel. I'll comment on that when it's done (sometime next year... lol :p)

thmpr

08-11-2006, 12:31 PM

Hey Mike,
LW will not use Noveske barrels anymore....:( Just FYI...

JPglee1

08-11-2006, 9:49 PM

Clean when you get home from the range, it only takes 5 min max.

The piston uppers non-solve a non-problem. Buy it if you have money to burn, better to spend it on ACOG and ammo...

Man, you must be pro at it, I cleaned my moms AR last week and it took me about an hour and a half. Getting up inside that "star chamber" was a real bear.

Compared to an AK where I can just spray the whole thing out with a can of brake cleaner and be done, the AR takes ages.

I also don't like that it doesn't have a cleaning rod, at least my moms doesnt have a place for one which is annoying.

Ive been considering getting an AR but how dirty they run really scares me. I was using PMC ammo on my moms AR last time I shot it. In 120rds the gun was 3x dirtier than my SKS would be after 500rds of WOLF...I cant believe an AR will still lockup with that much crud/junk in the chamber area... YECK.

JP

P.S. You guys think theres a market for a drop-in gas piston conversion system, if such an item could be made and marketed for say $375.00 for the kit (gas block, piston, gas chamber, steel bushing for wear at receiver hole) Im thinking of developing a kit based on my many many sketches/drawings/specs..would look kinda like POF but be able to be installed by anyone on any upper...

NeoWeird

08-11-2006, 10:24 PM

Bushmaster also has a piston upper out now, they are also intoducing a new caliber: the .45 Bushmaster. With a big name company being the first to display it, it might secure itself as the true big bore AR and beat out the others, like the .50 Beowulf.

ETA: And I mean beat out the other big bores as the most popular, not the best or most powerful.

BigAL

08-12-2006, 4:46 AM

I'm pretty sure the Bushy piston system is the POF one. I believe they have a licensing agreement in place.

Not sure why people get so freaked out over getting the AR dirty. Just add a few drops of your lube of choice if you think it's cycling a little too sluggish. The AR will run for thousands of rounds without cleaning. It may look nasty inside, but it will still function fine.

m1371

08-12-2006, 7:58 AM

Man, you must be pro at it, I cleaned my moms AR last week and it took me about an hour and a half. Getting up inside that "star chamber" was a real bear.

Compared to an AK where I can just spray the whole thing out with a can of brake cleaner and be done, the AR takes ages.

I also don't like that it doesn't have a cleaning rod, at least my moms doesnt have a place for one which is annoying.

Ive been considering getting an AR but how dirty they run really scares me. I was using PMC ammo on my moms AR last time I shot it. In 120rds the gun was 3x dirtier than my SKS would be after 500rds of WOLF...I cant believe an AR will still lockup with that much crud/junk in the chamber area... YECK.

JP

P.S. You guys think theres a market for a drop-in gas piston conversion system, if such an item could be made and marketed for say $375.00 for the kit (gas block, piston, gas chamber, steel bushing for wear at receiver hole) Im thinking of developing a kit based on my many many sketches/drawings/specs..would look kinda like POF but be able to be installed by anyone on any upper...

Dude, it sounds like you're darned near trying to clean the thing to Marine Corps inspections standards...... Get a can of Remington Brite Bore or some PowderBlast, hose the thing out, then run a BoreSnake through the barrel and be done with it. The AR platform will run dirtier than people realize.

As for designing a drop-in piston system........ well......... If you can come up with something that actually works reliably and is economical enough to produce, you'd probably make some money off it. There are tons of people out there who would jump all over it regardless.

My personal opinion is that a piston operated upper for an AR platform is a solution looking for a problem. The AR isn't used for continuous full-auto fire, which is where a piston-operated recoil system would prove beneficial.

As usual, just my .02 worth on it.

Ratters

08-12-2006, 8:12 AM

Not sure why people get so freaked out over getting the AR dirty. Just add a few drops of your lube of choice if you think it's cycling a little too sluggish. The AR will run for thousands of rounds without cleaning. It may look nasty inside, but it will still function fine.

Yep. I seem to put that to the test on a regular basis. ;)

As for time, if you are spending an hour and a half it is taking you way too much time. Get yourself a chamber brush to get all the gunk out around the bolt lockup, run a couple patches down the barrel and wipe out the inside of the upper receiver. Spray some corrosionx into the lower, wipe it out, and you are good to go. 10 minutes max.

Of course that's 10 minutes I never seem to find the time for. :D

Ryan HBC

08-12-2006, 11:25 AM

That 18" upper looks *****IN. I sure wouldn't mind pulling one of those out at the range.

Piston uppers are a cute idea, and I agree that they aren't absolutely necessary. THEN AGAIN, I have bought a ton on high end equipment that definitely isn't necessary either for my home commando arsenal. I do want to have the best piece of equipment available, even though I will likely never use it to defend myself (god willing), and a piston AR *may* be the tool for the job.

For me, this trend is a little too early for me to dive in. I am going to wait for other people to test them out, and wait for a few generations of piston uppers to hit the market, maybe wait for the US military to do some research for me. There are downsides to piston gas systems and some people donít understand that.

As of right now, I have three conventional gas AR's and have had zero malfunctions in any other them with Brass cased ammo. The price to benefit ratio is definitely not there at this point, time will tell.

JPglee1

08-12-2006, 12:10 PM

There are downsides to piston gas systems and some people donít understand that.

As of right now, I have three conventional gas AR's and have had zero malfunctions in any other them with Brass cased ammo. The price to benefit ratio is definitely not there at this point, time will tell.
What are the downsides, in your opinion?

The only one I can see is added parts (1 or 2) and slightly heaver.

My mom's registered AR never stops running when its dirty, but it gets SOOO nasty dirty wih all the CLP in there and dirt/carbon/powder fouling. I want a piston upper so it will stay clean like the FAL and SKS. I can shoot 100s of rounds thru either and they look about as dirty as an AR after 100rds.

I want to get an AR someday, but the gas system is what stops me...

J

JPglee1

08-12-2006, 12:14 PM

Yep. I seem to put that to the test on a regular basis. ;)

As for time, if you are spending an hour and a half it is taking you way too much time. Get yourself a chamber brush to get all the gunk out around the bolt lockup, run a couple patches down the barrel and wipe out the inside of the upper receiver. Spray some corrosionx into the lower, wipe it out, and you are good to go. 10 minutes max.

Of course that's 10 minutes I never seem to find the time for. :D

Well, I live in the dez, I can't just spray a ton of oil in there and leave it, It collects so much dust and lint and cat hair, etc when doing that regardless of gun type involved.

I usually completely clean my rifles with brake clean (steel receivers, Ive not done it to my moms AR), scrub brushes and an air compressor. Once its all dry and clean I'll put 1 or 2 drops of oil on the FCG pins and a very small amount of dielectric grease on the hammer/sear. I don't lube the bolt carrier rails on anything unless Im actually targer shooting.

I'll lube them for shooting days at the range, but when Im done I run them with almost NO lube, to make sure they'll work when the zombies parachute in.

J

Ryan HBC

08-12-2006, 2:22 PM

What are the downsides, in your opinion?

The only one I can see is added parts (1 or 2) and slightly heaver.

The way I see it, there are the obvious downsides and the less obvious downsides. Obviously, piston uppers are more expensive, heavier, and have more parts in a more complicated design. Right now different manufacturers have a different design, which means the parts are not interchangeable and are not widely available.

The less obvious downsides are found in every AK vs. AR debate. The piston driven AK stays clean, but the piston moving back and fourth in the rifle shifts the balance point, which affects accuracy and the overall handling of the weapon. In the AR, all of the moving parts are virtually in line with the bore, which makes the weapon more balanced, more accurate, and less felt recoil which makes it a pleasure to fire.

Don't get me wrong - I am very interested in the piston design and am watching it closely. For me, right now is too early to take the plunge. I'd like to see a standardized and proven design. We'll see what Colt has to offer.

bwiese

08-12-2006, 2:37 PM

JPGlee1...

Wow, I guesss you've never read the mil manuals on cleaning and maintenance. Your fears are unreasonable and unfounded. You are also underlubing - the #1 cause of AR malfunctions. ARs should be 'wet' inside, they will dry out and the Teflon film remaining...

ARs don't have to be white-glove clean. You're just doing way too much. At the end of a shooting day:

You're done. You can, time permitting, do other more detail cleaning. But this is all I do to my ARs. Every once in awhile I use BrakKleen to hose out the fire control parts and chamber/bbl extension lug areas and then fully re-lube with CLP.

And I run LOTS of ammo of various types and I never have problems.

[And if yours is getting hyper-excessively dirty you might have a loose carrier key??]

Ruiner

08-12-2006, 2:49 PM

From what I've read from reviews so far, accuracy isn't changed at all from DI ARs. At least not with the POF and LW systems. The only issues people are having with the POFs is with the predator rail system. Some feel that it's too high. Ill post my own mini review of it when I get my 2 POF uppers in. I ordered them back in June and I'm still waiting :(

BigAL

08-12-2006, 4:55 PM

When I took that carbine course earlier this year, we had one guy run a LW and another ran a POF piston gun. Both made it through the course fine. But then again, so did the DI guns. The instructors reported of another instance where a POF that came to class did not run well. I might think about picking up a Colt LE1020 piston gun when they are available. Assuming initial reports are favorable and the MSRP of just a bit more than the LE6920 I already have is true. But it's too early too tell. Plus SIG has the 556 on the way and I've already started another AR build.

JPglee1

08-12-2006, 9:04 PM

From what I've read from reviews so far, accuracy isn't changed at all from DI ARs. At least not with the POF and LW systems. The only issues people are having with the POFs is with the predator rail system. Some feel that it's too high. Ill post my own mini review of it when I get my 2 POF uppers in. I ordered them back in June and I'm still waiting :(

Hey, welcome to Calguns!

Yah, that would be nice to hear a mini review...

I would get the model with the standard A2 handguard...

J

JPglee1

08-12-2006, 9:10 PM

Plus SIG has the 556 on the way and I've already started another AR build.

Yah the 556 should be able to be shot here with no pistol grip...

My idea was to maybe get one instead of a POF upper if the price was reasonable enough...

Remove the pistol grip and use this stock:

http://www.rbprecision.com/027a34a0.jpg

And ditch the flash hider.

Would be cool :)

J

rorschach

08-12-2006, 10:22 PM

Cleanliness is next to godliness. The more you clean your rifle, the faster it gets. I hate cleaning weapons as much as anyone, but it's easier to spot potential failures (cracks etc). Thats just what has been drilled in my head since I was a kid and my dad would make me clean his rifles.

BrakeKleen wont harm aluminum receivers, or the finish. Be careful around the plastic though, it will melt some polymers.

JPglee1

08-12-2006, 10:25 PM

Cleanliness is next to godliness. The more you clean your rifle, the faster it gets. I hate cleaning weapons as much as anyone, but it's easier to spot potential failures (cracks etc). Thats just what has been drilled in my head since I was a kid and my dad would make me clean his rifles.

BrakeKleen wont harm aluminum receivers, or the finish. Be careful around the plastic though, it will melt some polymers.

+1, I rely on my rifle to protect myself. I want all my guns spotless at all times so I know they will work when I grab them.

Thanks for the tip on the aluminum.

J

rorschach

08-12-2006, 10:36 PM

Just to clarify, I know Brakekleen wont harm matte black anodized aluminum receivers, I dont know about epoxy or teflon. I'll spray one of my Doublestars and let you know.

Q

08-12-2006, 11:22 PM

also waiting on the colt piston upper! pof looks good but rather have a hk416 upper:(

JPglee1

08-12-2006, 11:23 PM

I like the idea of the POF upper cuz it uses the FAL gas block/plug, and I have a FAL so its familiar :)

J

Paltik.45acp

08-14-2006, 5:43 AM

I have a POF upper on my RRA lower. I liked it a lot that I bought another one
for my other RRA lower. It cleans so easy, just like my FAL and its darn accurate, too! I'm never going back to the standard AR. Now, I'm just waiting
for the SIG 556. Every manufacturer is coming out with their own piston versions that pretty soon it will be the standard in ARs.

NSR500

09-15-2006, 8:56 AM

Question for the POF owners out there...

Can the POF upper only be used with the Predator Rail system, or is it compatible with other systems?
From what I understand, they use their own barrel nut.

bwiese

09-15-2006, 10:22 AM

I have handled a POF piston-based rifle at the 2006 SHOT Show.

Nice, but way front-heavy. Some fraction of that heaviness is likely due to the Predator rail system...

That being said, there's little reason for most folks to get one. If you have spare $$$ for cool toys, fine. ARs have been working perfectly fine for the last 40 years w/just a bit of cleaning.

I clean my gas-impingment ARs after a long day of shooting in under 3-4 minutes each. Never a problem even after my 1500 rd Nevada desert shooting sessions. You do NOT need to get them surgically clean; most people overclean guns - more personal guns prob wear out due to overcleaning or overzealous cleaning than due to wear from actual use!!

Gas-piston ARs will not solve many AR problems but will just change their nature slightly: short stroking, failure to feed, failure to extract/eject (the famously misnamed "double feed"), etc. all occur in varying levels on other platforms. Crap ammo and crap magazines and rough non-chromed chambers all can take their toll regardless of gas system.

POF is a small co with a unique, proprietary design. Down the road, will you be able to get parts? (This applies to L-W, too.) If you really, really, really have to have a gas piston AR upper, wait for the Colt LE1020 (I _think_ that's the model) upper to be sold separately, or buy a complete such Colt rifle as an OLL and have it imported into CA in a legal configuration thru an intermediating FFL dealer like CWS.

[HK416 upper would be nice but barrel import laws might not allow imports, and HK is famously finicky to deal with anyway even if sales were legal. Also, some 922(r) issues might enter into the picture, a first for ARs.]