Castro's crimes are minor compared to many others the US has openly supported I didn't know that murdering your own people was minor. Please provide specific details on the US crimes that makes Castro's crime petty crimes.Posted by hankwilliamsjr

At least quote him correctly. He didn't say "US crimes" ... he said Castro's crimes were minor "compared to many others the US has openly supported."And while I wouldn't put words in his mouth, I'm guessing he means bruts like Saddam Hussein.

In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? : At least quote him correctly. He didn't say "US crimes" ... he said Castro's crimes were minor "compared to many others the US has openly supported." And while I wouldn't put words in his mouth, I'm guessing he means bruts like Saddam Hussein.Posted by LloydDobler

And closer to the crux of the issue, a long list of Latin American murdering dictators who the U.S. was even more implicit in the repression and bloodshed than it was in Iraq.

In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? : At least quote him correctly. He didn't say "US crimes" ... he said Castro's crimes were minor "compared to many others the US has openly supported." And while I wouldn't put words in his mouth, I'm guessing he means bruts like Saddam Hussein.Posted by LloydDobler

Regardless , one cannot minimize atrocities by pointing to other atrocities. What we are seeing here is that we have a few Castro sympathizers on this board who do not mind that he is a murderous skunk because he is a communist murderous skunk. That makes it okay in their mind.

In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? : Regardless , one cannot minimize atrocities by pointing to other atrocities. What we are seeing here is that we have a few Castro sympathizers on this board who do not mind that he is a murderous skunk because he is a communist murderous skunk. That makes it okay in their mind.Posted by dgalehouse

It certainly does not absolve Castro of his sins. And it is true that many self-identifying 'leftists' are guilty of painting in black and white strokes. But so does the 'right'. Bottom line is that the only way to have a perspective on the matters in question is to have knowledge of the history behind them. Something that many who are quick to raise their political voice lack.

In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? : It certainly does not absolve Castro of his sins. And it is true that many self-identifying 'leftists' are guilty of painting in black and white strokes. But so does the 'right'. Bottom line is that the only way to have a perspective on the matters in question is to have knowledge of the history behind them. Something that many who are quick to raise their political voice lack.Posted by SpacemanEephus

Maybe we could ask the so called " right wing " Cubans living in Miami. They might know something about the history of the Castro regime.

In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? : Maybe we could ask the so called " right wing " Cubans living in Miami. They might know something about the history of the Castro regime. Posted by dgalehouse

Teilhardian says that he has a Doctor of Divinity degree from Harvard University and is a practicing Christian. Why start a thread about politics in Cuba and Miami when he knows that it will end up as a political debate. Why doesn't Teilhardian give us some insight from the Christian viewpoint. Why not supersede politics with ethics and morality. What would Teilhardian say from the pulpit if he were giving a sermon / homily in a Miami church. Forget about the academic, highbrow, intellectual, student of history, debate. Give us your opinion as a man of the cloth.

It seems to me that the suggestion Batista was worse than Castro is going completely unrefuted here.Whether one is a fan of crony capitalism and its' attendant corruption ; OR despotic communism and its' endemic totalitarianism is really immaterial. Which leader murdered, tortured and imprisoned more of his own people ? The answer is easily verifiable : Fidel Castro. Batista was obviously no saint, and under communism Cuba increased literacy and health care access.....TO THOSE NOT MURDERED, TORTURED AND IMPRISONED. Go to Cuba, see the actual conditions. Read actual historical records, then form opinions.Posted by jimedfred

Fair points. I am a fan of neither Batista nor Castro and my goal certainly wasn't to lionize Castro ... I didn't eve really mean to get into a Castro v. Batista debate. The point is that making a demon of Castro while not recognizing the reality of US relations with the developing world over the past 50-60 years is vastly oversimplifying things. Your points actually support my position. When you have sit down and count how many people Dictator A tortured and killed vs. Dictator B ... and one is "our guy" and the other is "the enemy," shouldn't that be enough to make us realize that the good guy/bad guy model won't get us anywhere. I am NOT taking a pro-Castro position. I just think that the whole US vs. Castro thing is overblown and mistaken.

Here is a nice quote re: Batista which is from an anti-Castro source ... it nicely points out the fact that the developing world is filled with horrible dictators:

"

Batista was corrupt, violent and out of touch with his people (or perhaps he simply didn’t care about them). Still, in comparison with fellow dictators such as the Somozas in Nicaragua, the Duvaliers in Haiti or even Alberto Fujimori of Peru, he was relatively benign. Much of his money was made by taking bribes and payoffs from foreigners, such as his percentage of the haul from the casinos. Therefore, he looted state funds less than other dictators did. He did frequently order the murder of prominent political rivals, but ordinary Cubans had little to fear from him until the revolution began, when his tactics turned increasingly brutal and repressive ...

Batista’s police and security forces turned increasingly to torture and murder in an effort to root out the rebellion.

Teilhardian says that he has a Doctor of Divinity degree from Harvard University and is a practicing Christian. Why start a thread about politics in Cuba and Miami when he knows that it will end up as a political debate. Why doesn't Teilhardian give us some insight from the Christian viewpoint. Why not supersede politics with ethics and morality. What would Teilhardian say from the pulpit if he were giving a sermon / homily in a Miami church. Forget about the academic, highbrow, intellectual, student of history, debate. Give us your opinion as a man of the cloth.Posted by 6k42lt913c

Teilhardian does not find offensive the signature line of another poster that advocates gaining freedom by strangling someone with the entrails of a priest. That tells you all you need to know about the hypocritical Yankee fan that comes here in "peace " looking to stir up trouble. I think the " Doctor of Divinity " is a fake , phony , fraud.

In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? : And closer to the crux of the issue, a long list of Latin American murdering dictators who the U.S. was even more implicit in the repression and bloodshed than it was in Iraq.Posted by SpacemanEephus

Or africa(see congo and Mobutu), or reinstalling the shah. Pretty much anything we did in order to stop the spread of communism lead to disaster.

That being said im not a castro sympathizer i thing the truther is the only one on that list, but recognizing a grey area is not a sin. The world is not black and white it is shades of grey which makes infinitely harder to understand.

In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? : Fair points. I am a fan of neither Batista nor Castro and my goal certainly wasn't to lionize Castro ... I didn't eve really mean to get into a Castro v. Batista debate. The point is that making a demon of Castro while not recognizing the reality of US relations with the developing world over the past 50-60 years is vastly oversimplifying things. Your points actually support my position. When you have sit down and count how many people Dictator A tortured and killed vs. Dictator B ... and one is "our guy" and the other is "the enemy," shouldn't that be enough to make us realize that the good guy/bad guy model won't get us anywhere. I am NOT taking a pro-Castro position. I just think that the whole US vs. Castro thing is overblown and mistaken. Here is a nice quote re: Batista which is from an anti-Castro source ... it nicely points out the fact that the developing world is filled with horrible dictators: " Batista was corrupt, violent and out of touch with his people (or perhaps he simply didn’t care about them). Still, in comparison with fellow dictators such as the Somozas in Nicaragua, the Duvaliers in Haiti or even Alberto Fujimori of Peru, he was relatively benign. Much of his money was made by taking bribes and payoffs from foreigners, such as his percentage of the haul from the casinos. Therefore, he looted state funds less than other dictators did. He did frequently order the murder of prominent political rivals, but ordinary Cubans had little to fear from him until the revolution began, when his tactics turned increasingly brutal and repressive ... Batista’s police and security forces turned increasingly to torture and murder in an effort to root out the rebellion. "Posted by 111SoxFan111

Actually Batista was NOT " our guy" , unless 'we" are / were the Mafia. The U.S. backed Castro with aid at first, and the New York Times led the major media in suggesting Castro was an anti-communist. Of course, the NYT is NEVER wrong about anything....like calling Reagan naive and stupid for suggesting Soviet communism was temporary.U.S. involvement in many places was shameful, however if one takes the long view , generally liberal democracies outperform all other forms of society in delivering liberty, dignity, and alleviating human suffering. Ask any Iranian over the age of 50 if things were better under the Shah than currently.Fascism was and is much closer to Progressivism and the Left than to true conservatism and the Right. Nazi was short for national socialist.

I meant liberal democracies in the sense of foreign policy and influence. My previous comment could be interpreted to suggest Shah Reza Pahlavi ran a democracy, which is obviously not the case.

But compare the foreign poliicy influence of the U.S. or Britain to that of P.R.China, the former U.S.S.R., or ANY totalitarian government and decide who did more to spread freedom, benevolence and progress.

In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? : Regardless , one cannot minimize atrocities by pointing to other atrocities. What we are seeing here is that we have a few Castro sympathizers on this board who do not mind that he is a murderous skunk because he is a communist murderous skunk. That makes it okay in their mind.Posted by dgalehouse

I agree ... Castro is a murderous skunk who has a confirmed reservation in Hell. I just felt the need to correct a blatant mischaracterization made by a usual suspect.

In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? : Actually Batista was NOT " our guy" , unless 'we" are / were the Mafia. The U.S. backed Castro with aid at first, and the New York Times led the major media in suggesting Castro was an anti-communist. Of course, the NYT is NEVER wrong about anything....like calling Reagan naive and stupid for suggesting Soviet communism was temporary. U.S. involvement in many places was shameful, however if one takes the long view , generally liberal democracies outperform all other forms of society in delivering liberty, dignity, and alleviating human suffering. Ask any Iranian over the age of 50 if things were better under the Shah than currently. Fascism was and is much closer to Progressivism and the Left than to true conservatism and the Right. Nazi was short for national socialist.Posted by jimedfred

I was generalizing tin pot dictators some of whom we support and others oppose ... not Batista specifically. Beyond that, I honestly no longer know what you are going on about. I think I have stated very clearly that my main point was that when it comes to the developing world there are a lot of bad leaders some of whom we "support" and some we oppose and that the world isn't black and white.

Now you are on some tangent about the NYT (don't know why you aren't throwing Nixon under that bus, fwiw) and comparing Fascism to "the Left" ... god only knows what or who you are arguing against or about. I only know it doesn't actually have anything to do with me or what I wrote. I am done now.

In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? : Actually Batista was NOT " our guy" , unless 'we" are / were the Mafia. The U.S. backed Castro with aid at first, and the New York Times led the major media in suggesting Castro was an anti-communist. Of course, the NYT is NEVER wrong about anything....like calling Reagan naive and stupid for suggesting Soviet communism was temporary. U.S. involvement in many places was shameful, however if one takes the long view , generally liberal democracies outperform all other forms of society in delivering liberty, dignity, and alleviating human suffering. Ask any Iranian over the age of 50 if things were better under the Shah than currently. Fascism was and is much closer to Progressivism and the Left than to true conservatism and the Right. Nazi was short for national socialist.Posted by jimedfred

"Batista initially rose to power as part of the 1933 "Revolt of the Sergeants" that overthrew the authoritarian rule ofGerardo Machado. Batista then appointed himself chief of the armed forces with the rank ofcolonel, and effectively controlled the five-member Presidency. He maintained this control through a string of puppet presidents until 1940, when he was himself elected President of Cuba on apopulistplatform.[2][5]He then instated the1940 Constitution of Cuba, deemed progressive for its time, and served until 1944. After finishing his term he lived in the United States, returning to Cuba to run for president in 1952. Facing certain electoral defeat, he led amilitary coupthat preempted the election.

Back in power, Batista suspended the 1940 Constitution and revoked most political liberties, including the right to strike. He then aligned with the wealthiest landowners who owned the largest sugar plantations, and presided over a stagnating economy that widened the gap between rich and poor Cubans.[6] Batista's increasingly corrupt and repressive regime then began to systematically profit from the exploitation of Cuba's commercial interests, by negotiating lucrative relationships with the American mafia, who controlled the drug, gambling, and prostitution businesses in Havana, and with large multinational American corporations that had invested considerable amounts of money in Cuba.[6][7] To quell the growing discontent amongst the populace — which was subsequently displayed through frequent student riots and anti-Batista demonstrations — Batista established tighter censorship of the media, while also utilizing his anti-Communist secret police and U.S.-supplied weaponry to carry out wide-scale violence, torture and public executions; ultimately killing as many as 20,000 Cubans.[8]"

Castro was a bastardo but no more so than Pinochet - who we supported as he made tens of thousands of his own young people disappear....castro as a dictator is a decent one... his education system, health care, and human rights record is condiderably better than that of Haiti, Chile, Colombia, and many more third world nations throughout the globe that we do business with...the anti Castro Cubans are extreme in their beliefs...and not just because they were all tortured, but because many of them/families were supplanted from power by the revolution...

The embargo is a product of the Cold War...which was ended over 20 years ago...and the Bay of Pigs failure only added to the diplomatic isolation between the two nations....Ozzie of course is oblivious to all this but so are his critics about castro/cuba/and the Us behavior in Latin America...

just google the number of times america invaded latin nations in the 20th century...scary

Castro was a bastardo but no more so than Pinochet - who we supported as he made tens of thousands of his own young people disappear....castro as a dictator is a decent one... his education system, health care, and human rights record is condiderably better than that of Haiti, Chile, Colombia, and many more third world nations throughout the globe that we do business with...the anti Castro Cubans are extreme in their beliefs...and not just because they were all tortured, but because many of them/families were supplanted from power by the revolution... The embargo is a product of the Cold War...which was ended over 20 years ago...and the Bay of Pigs failure only added to the diplomatic isolation between the two nations....Ozzie of course is oblivious to all this but so are his critics about castro/cuba/and the Us behavior in Latin America... just google the number of times america invaded latin nations in the 20th century...scaryPosted by georom4

I think we should all begin with the premise that there are no posters here espousing totalitarian rule with the intent to cause innocent people to suffer. There is a clear ideological divide, but we should try to keep it in perspective. I will simply say this: Of all the totalitarian rulers of the modern era, none caused more human suffering and deaths than those of the leftist persuasian. Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin between them caused more deaths than all wars in human history. Castro was a light weight in their camp, but he caused much pain and suffering in his time. These truths are things we should all agree on. Whether the US has always acted honorably in world affairs can be debated by reasonable folks. But the above mentioned despots contribution to human misery should not be argued. It is beyond contestation.

In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? : " Batista initially rose to power as part of the 1933 "Revolt of the Sergeants" that overthrew the authoritarian rule of Gerardo Machado . Batista then appointed himself chief of the armed forces with the rank of colonel , and effectively controlled the five-member Presidency. He maintained this control through a string of puppet presidents until 1940, when he was himself elected President of Cuba on a populist platform. [2] [5] He then instated the 1940 Constitution of Cuba , deemed progressive for its time, and served until 1944. After finishing his term he lived in the United States, returning to Cuba to run for president in 1952. Facing certain electoral defeat, he led a military coup that preempted the election. Back in power, Batista suspended the 1940 Constitution and revoked most political liberties, including the right to strike . He then aligned with the wealthiest landowners who owned the largest sugar plantations , and presided over a stagnating economy that widened the gap between rich and poor Cubans. [6] Batista's increasingly corrupt and repressive regime then began to systematically profit from the exploitation of Cuba's commercial interests, by negotiating lucrative relationships with the American mafia , who controlled the drug, gambling, and prostitution businesses in Havana , and with large multinational American corporations that had invested considerable amounts of money in Cuba. [6] [7] To quell the growing discontent amongst the populace — which was subsequently displayed through frequent student riots and anti-Batista demonstrations — Batista established tighter censorship of the media, while also utilizing his anti-Communist secret police and U.S.-supplied weaponry to carry out wide-scale violence, torture and public executions ; ultimately killing as many as 20,000 Cubans. [8] " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_BatistaPosted by teilhardian

Anyone can post info straight out of Wikipedia , and then claim to know history. Why not ask the Cubans in Florida about the history of the Castro regime? They will tell you about their loved ones who were tortured , imprisoned and murdered by the Castro government. They have every reason to hate him. Castro has been in power for fifty some years , and still today people risk their lives to flee and defect from Cuba in search of freedom. Batista may have been a bad guy also , but this no longer about him. Things that the U.S. has done wrong are entirely beside the point here. The issue is the murderer , Castro , and the fact that he is despised by the Cuban population of Miami. And the stupidity of Ozzie in not realizing that. All this other stuff is just an attempt to deflect attention from Castro's atrocities by a handful of his leftist sympathizers on this forum. Of course , we all know that there is evil in the world. That should never mitigate what Castro has done.

I think we should all begin with the premise that there are no posters here espousing totalitarian rule with the intent to cause innocent people to suffer. There is a clear ideological divide, but we should try to keep it in perspective. I will simply say this: Of all the totalitarian rulers of the modern era, none caused more human suffering and deaths than those of the leftist persuasian. Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin between them caused more deaths than all wars in human history. Castro was a light weight in their camp, but he caused much pain and suffering in his time. These truths are things we should all agree on. Whether the US has always acted honorably in world affairs can be debated by reasonable folks. But the above mentioned despots contribution to human misery should not be argued. It is beyond contestation. In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? :Posted by Teakus

Please define "Leftist Persuasion" because the definition is too shallow and limited to your mind only. Are ministers, priests, rabbis, and pastors who are concerned with human rights and the teachers of a moral code considered to be "leftists" by you. Who are rightests in your opinion and what morality do they ascribe to? I see the people that you mentioned as evil and there is no need to label them as leftists or rightests. Try not to categorize corrupt dictators as being linked to those who sincerely care about humanity which is normally those who are socialists, Christians, liberal Jews, and Hindus, and other intelligent human beings. Morality is simple, treat your fellow man like you would want them to treat you.

In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? : Please define "Leftist Persuasion" because the definition is too shallow and limited to your mind only. Are ministers, priests, rabbis, and pastors who are concerned with human rights and the teachers of a moral code considered to be "leftists" by you. Who are rightests in your opinion and what morality do they ascribe to? I see the people that you mentioned as evil and there is no need to label them as leftists or rightests. Try not to categorize corrupt dictators as being linked to those who sincerely care about humanity which is normally those who are socialists, Christians, liberal Jews, and Hindus, and other intelligent human beings. Morality is simple, treat your fellow man like you would want them to treat you.Posted by 6k42lt913c

You really claim that only socialists sincerely care about humanity ? So conservatives who after years of emprical study have learned that economic and poltical freedom combined with law and order and private property lift far more humans out of poverty just don't care ?We on the rght must be selfish exploiters and takers ? Learn some facts, son, study some history.Perhaps both political types sincerely CARE , just disagree over methodology ?Perhaps actual results and quantifiable data mean more to conservatives than smug , superior social engineers ? So-called liberal socialist policies ( such as minimum wage laws, unrestricted welfare spending,net income equalization) have done more damage than good, time after time.Invariably when leaders claim policies are " about helping the people" they turn out to be about POWER over the people. Read Burke, Locke, Friedman, Hayek,or Sowell.

Now that I live in Canada it strikes me as odd that Americans--supposedly the freest people in the world--are forbidden to go to Cuba by their government, while people here in Canada go there all the time for inexpensive Carribean vacations. Right wingers condemn Castro for restricting his people's freedoms, then turn right around and demand the American government play big brother and restrict the freedom of Americans to travel to Cuba . . . Am I the only one who sees some irony here?

In Response to Re: Ozzie apologizes for what??? : You really claim that only socialists sincerely care about humanity ? So conservatives who after years of emprical study have learned that economic and poltical freedom combined with law and order and private property lift far more humans out of poverty just don't care ? We on the rght must be selfish exploiters and takers ? Learn some facts, son, study some history. Perhaps both political types sincerely CARE , just disagree over methodology ? Perhaps actual results and quantifiable data mean more to conservatives than smug , superior social engineers ? So-called liberal socialist policies ( such as minimum wage laws, unrestricted welfare spending,net income equalization) have done more damage than good, time after time. Invariably when leaders claim policies are " about helping the people" they turn out to be about POWER over the people. Read Burke, Locke, Friedman, Hayek,or Sowell.Posted by jimedfred

Now, now, if you want to play fair, play fair. Yes, the free market can be a wonderful thing (and I really do believe that), but many so-called "socialist" policies (like free public education, rules against child labour and other exploitive labour practices, social insurance programs for the elderly and others) demonstrably do produce a lot of good. Every healthy modern society balances market forces with social welfare programs and sensible regulation . . . those who go too far in either direction are the ones that fail. The good ones learn to strike the right balance.

That's the problem with America now. The right wingers fail to acknowledge any good whatsoever to any government program (except maybe the military). That's childish, unrealistic, and ultimately damaging to the country.

I guess it's not safe for a manager to speak highly of Fidel in the rabidly right-wing politcal climate of anti-castro Cuban Miami....Have there been human rights abuses in Cuba durning his tenure. Of course. But people forget that US policymakers had been trying to assasinate, overthrow and otherwise terminate this man for decades...People also forget that Cuba was a mob-run sewer under Batista where poverty, prostitution and malnutrition were rampant....Because of Castro, the US failed to keep Cuba safe for the American mafia, and many paid the price....I give Guillen credit for leaving his team to return to Miami and "apologizing" so the political firestorm can be put out...But the repressive censorship at work here is sad...Never dare challenge the dominant culture where Castro is demonized for lifting his people out of an economic abyss, and surviving despite a crippling US embargo for years.... A manager should be able to at least express a political opinion without being vilified and threatened with the loss of his job....It is a shame Ozzie has to lower himself to the level of bowing to the right-wing in Miami, but that is where we are today in the land of the free....Posted by teilhardian

So in your mind, the better of two Evils is good? Evil is evil. Like Ozzie, you too prove that you are an inappropriate fool and as such should be suspended from society too. Now.......Shut up!