Voting Closed cxd6 100%

cxd6 17 votes.

Today's Suggested Moves have been posted, and the voting polls will open Thursday, August 3rd @7PM EDT and close at Friday, August 4th 12AM EDT (INSERT NEXT DAY Night), in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

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Suggested Move Summary

cxd6

Suggested Position

Suggested Move: cxd6

According to yesterday, this is the only move. V 12:43, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Having joined the cxd6 camp (it being the best way to deal with the immediate problem of the Bishop) I'd like to put a vote in for this (After I get home from work I won't be on a computer for awhile.) Please put my name in the vote section for this when the time comes. Thanks. medwardstalk

Likewise I'd appreciate if someone added my name to the votes for it. I will be asleep. He who says zonk 14:16, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Any other move wouldn't male much sense. It's too soon to initiate the queen fork and exchange and we need to get rid of that threat.Funky citrus 12:48, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

the only other move that makes any kind of sense to me is QxB, but it seems intuitively obvious that the queen is far more powerfull on the king side than stuck behind those center pawns. Kingpatzer 12:49, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

wait a tick, the queen exchange doesn't exist anymore. That bishop took out our knight.

if 27. Qd1 then Qxe4 increases our material advantage. If 27. Nc1 then Bxd5 puts him in a bind. if 27. h3 then Bxd5 again works to our advantage. Nothing else makes much sense for white. Kingpatzer 12:57, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

What I don't like about 27. ... Bxd5 is that our bishop is stuck there afterwards. Ze can sit back and do something else. If we move the bishop, he does Bxc4+ and then our rook is a goner. V 13:03, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

It's "stuck" but so what? What does he do? Nc1? Qd1? Qd2? Qb2? Bh5? Kingpatzer 14:38, 3 August 2006 (PDT) The threat to check our king is there if we simply make a dumb move, but that's not a reason, imho, to refuse material. There's no threat there we can't avoid by correct play. Kingpatzer 14:38, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

This is far and away the best move. We will soon clean up against White as Ze has to burn material to avoid mate. Snark 13:34, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

OK, I agree - it is the best move. --Cubzas 13:36, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

What's Ze's response? 27 Qd1 or g3?

Not sure about g3 yet, but Qd1 has the easy response of Qxe4 (I think). arc

Yeah, that's the time to play Bxd5. :-) Snark 14:05, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

White will probably play Qd1, Qd2, or Nc1. We should play Nc5 in response to either of those. Qxe4 (in response to Qd1 or Qd2) is not as good because Bf3 will be annoying. Snark 14:05, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

This is the only good move and it should develop 100% consensus yet again. There's a lot of banter and analysis about a few other variations below, but, while amusing, it's only 'cause people are bored or really like debate for its own sake. -Axl 14:16, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

lol all of the above, in my case, Axl. Otis 14:26, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

VOTING

VOTE by medwardstalk: Having joined the cxd6 camp (it being the best way to deal with the immediate problem of the Bishop) I'd like to put a vote in for this (After I get home from work I won't be on a computer for awhile.) Please put my name in the vote section for this when the time comes. Thanks.

VOTE by He who says zonk 14:20, 3 August 2006 (PDT): I'd appreciate someone placing a vote for me when the time comes, I am going to bed now.

VOTE by Otis 14:27, 3 August 2006 (PDT): Due to time zones, I have to make a pre-vote. Please consider this my vote when the polls open. Good night, all.

VOTE by SaintPeter 20:15, 3 August 2006 (PDT) Let's not count our chickens before they hatch. But this is fun, everyone pile on Ze!

VOTE by Theroachman 20:17, 3 August 2006 (PDT) Ah heck, I just go with the flow. Some other lines are tempting too, for different reasons, but let's just play it cool. If there comes a Fabuloso Chess 2 (and I hope there will), we are 1-0 in front and then we can do more exotic stuff.

VOTE by V 20:58, 3 August 2006 (PDT) : hope I made it. 2 min left before deadline. Crap, writing this took 3 minutes.

Qxd6

Suggested Position

Suggested Move: qxd6

this is playable, but not as good in my mind as cxd6 Kingpatzer 12:51, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

ANALYSIS: 26. .. Qxd6 27. Rf1 Qc5 28. Rxf2 Qxf2 29. h3 -- white is a pawn down in an inferior position . And is still going to have trouble untangling his pieces. But there's no immediately winning threats on the board for black. Kingpatzer 12:56, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

White can't support the Queen's diagonal using his bishop as both positions are covered by black

This was all covered with yesterday's move. With perfect play, Bxd5 isn't "bad" for Black but the advantage is no where near as strong as after cxd6, when White will have to give up huge material to avoid mate. It's a clearly better, safer move. Snark 13:10, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

I checked through tons of variations yesterday for this move. They all fail for black. Please do not vote for this move. Black may as well resign if you play this. V 13:09, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Humor me. I'm back after a long hiatus and want to see this played out. The move history is too verbose for me to find the relevant sections of prior discussion. medwardstalk

I've seen that link multiple times and it sucks for a review of the discussion in question. It's too dense and undervisualized to jump into and should have been moved into a challenge sub-page. medwardstalk

I can understand that, but it also sucks to have someone ask us to simply re-type all that we typed yesterday because you don't want to invest the time to simply read it. Snark 13:24, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Here's a line just FYI. Bxd5 27. Bxc7 Bxe4 28. Bxc4+ and we lose our rook. The main question is what do you do to protect the diagonal our king is one once you remove the white pawn? If not 27. ... Bxe4 pins the bishop to that square d5. It effectively removes that piece from the board unless we can figure out how to get white's bishop next to our rook. V 13:14, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

May I suggest 27. ... Qxe4 instead? A very dominant and supported position in the middle of the board, and enabling some moves heading into the corner that I won't bother evaluating until I see your response. medwardstalk

Read above! That's the analysis I wanted Snark. I don't like this line much anymore. For the record, people won't be interested in jumping in if you refer them to overly dense previous discussions. medwardstalk

If we go through all of the variations you can think of as to what we can play, we will end up with a discussion just as dense as the last one. This conversation will be just as dense, but you will be asking the questions instead of the people who previously did, and the same people will be typing the same answer. arc

If he doesn't take the bishop immediately, we fork his queen (if he does, we take the queen for free). If we fork his queen and he moves the queen, we take the white g pawn with the bishop. He takes with the castle, we take with the queen, and it's over. How does this not work? He who says zonk 13:16, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I see the problem, but it's not in the move, we just need to move our king first (this move) and then run Bxd5 next move. He who says zonk 13:19, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

The trouble is, moving our king after that move costs us our rook. Otis 13:19, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Got it, I figured that out after I hit enter, sorry. I'd like to see responses to this move submission ( 26. ... Kh8) before committing to taking the bishop first (26. ... cxd6), please. Otis 13:24, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

The second "highly likely" outcome is wrong. Correctly played, the most we lose is a bishop, for his queen. This isn't a trading queens move, if used correctly. He who says zonk 13:40, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Please state the correct line and I'll update it. Keep in mind this is the black queen takes e4 variation. The table above it is the black bishop takes e4 variation. V 13:51, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Kh8

Suggested Position

Suggested Move: Kh8

This allows us to play Bxd5 next turn as Ze will no longer be able to get us in check and take our rook. I would like to see analysis of how this would play out. He who says zonk 13:29, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

As a result of the discussion I agree we shouldn't play this move.He who says zonk 14:09, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

After 26...Kh8 27. Bxc7 Bxd5 we've simply transposed to the "best" continuation after 26...Bxd5. That is, it's not losing for Black but it's hard to show compensation for the Knight and it's nowhere as good as ...cxd6 when we clean up. Snark 13:31, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

I'd rather easily pick up the bishop now while we have the opportunity. The only reason to move h8 is in preparation for the various Bxd5 lines and I'd rather see where he's going before we position ourselves for that. medwardstalk

I'm not against taking the bishop now but it gives him more moves to escape from the queen fork. Once our king is moved I don't see any reason to hold back from the Bxd5 line but if we want to gain a bishop now and risk letting his queen escape, by all means. He who says zonk 13:38, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

I guess what I'm saying is it seems a bit silly to abandon Bxd5 just because we can't play it nowHe who says zonk 13:46, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

The Queen fork is not going to happen. There is no forcing variation that makes it so. It's a pretty thing but it is not our best plan. Take the bishop now, while we can. Snark 13:47, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

By playing cxd5 we aren't abandoning it. If we played Qxd5 we would be. arc

Zonk, please consider this line: 26. ... Kh8 27. Bxc7 Bxd5 28. Qd1 Bxe4 29. Bf1 Bxg2+ 30. Bxg2 Rxg2 31. Rxg2 and we've let him out of the bag. Check the line to see if I've got it right, but I think he can get out if we go this way. Otis 13:52, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Otis, I think 29.Bf3 (after 29. Bf1 Black plays ...Qc6) Bxf3 30. gxf3 Qc6 31. Bxb6 Rxa2 is more likely, and Black is indeed better here, but only by a pawn. It compares poorly to the bludgeoning Ze will receive after 26...cxd6. (Broken record, I know.) Snark 13:58, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

I agree. Qd1 and Bf1 are key to white getting out and are easily playable while having threats of their own. V 13:56, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Zonk, I know you want to stick it to him NOW, but it doesn't appear that we can get there just yet. If we're patient and careful, we'll get him. Otis 14:02, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Alright, I agree we shouldn't follow this line. It wasn't so much about sticking it to him now, I just wanted something with a bit of flavour. It just feels like we're beating him by brute force / by playing like a computer would. As I said above, I never had any problem with taking the bishop. No hard feelings, the game is our game, not my game. :) He who says zonk 14:06, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

It does seem a bit mechanical, but I think playing any other way would be losing. We can't expect to spring a trap on him in this medium and attempting to be too clever will fall apart when a vote goes the wrong way. arc

No hard feelings at all on this end, Zonk, I appreciate your input and was hoping this was the answer as much (if not more) than you were, lol Otis 14:10, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Ummm... well, I've been looking at various lines and I can't see black coming out worse than being two pawns ahead. I think this line *IS* playable. V 14:12, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Ah no. We end up a piece down. Missed an obvious variation. It comes down to us having to protect our king again because the white queen has the d file, and we lose tempo and white can protect its last piece, thus putting it ahead of black. BTW, it requires white to move the bishop to safety on his very next move. Anything else an we come out ahead. V 14:15, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Very interesting. I almost feel compelled to vote for this line. I just want to see if Ze is smart enough to move his bishop to safety next move. I guess it translates to giving your nearly dead opponent a last chance to save his ass. Foolish, perhaps, but oh so tempting... Theroachman 20:06, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Discuss Ze's Responses to cxd6

Qd1

27...Nc5 or ...Nf6. Seem about the same to me. 27....Qxe4 28. Bf3 is annoying so let's wait to take the e4 pawn. Snark 14:22, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

I think I like Nf6 a little bit more because it places the knight in a position that they could aid in a checkmate down the line, if for whatever reason we lay off e4.arc

Yeah, that's a good point. But the knight on c5 also attacks the pawn on a4. Snark 14:52, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

That's definitely the good thing about Nc5 vs Nf6. Nc5 is probably the better move for long term play, I'm thinking there should be a mate in here somewhere before the endgame though. The one thing about threatening a4 is that if we did move Nxa4, Ze's Qxa4 puts us in a bit (just a bit) of trouble. Of course, threatening isn't the same as taking, and it's easy enough to wait until his queen moves, which she'll have to at some point. arc

Well, I don't think there is a forced mate, unfortunately. We'll probably end up with exchanged queens about three connected passed pawns in the center. If Ze doesn't resign, that is. Snark 15:01, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Qd2

This is just harsh. I think out of all of Ze's responses this is the one that would end the game the quickest (well, besides something like Bd1). arc

After 26. Rg1 cxd5 27. Qd2 Qxe4 - Ze could move Bf3. I think that after a queen trade, it works out to him being only a pawn down. mick129

After 26. Rg1 cxd5 27. Qd2 Qxe4 28. Bf3 we play 28...Qxf3 29. gxf3 Rxd2 and we're up a piece and two pawns already and about to start picking off Ze's pawns one by one. It's an easy win. Snark 15:17, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

I'm just going to shut up now and let the real chess players do their thing. :) arc

Though I do believe 28. Bf3 Rxd2 29. Bxe4 Rxa2 gives us a knight as well. arc

Nc1

27. ...Nc5 or 27...Nf6. Seem about the same to me. Snark 14:20, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Sorry, I'm an idiot. We should play ...Bxd5 here. Snark 14:58, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

I'll bet my sugartits this is his move, though I think Qd1 is better for him because it avoids Bxd5. arc

really, i'm not sure what white does at this point. I have a hard time finding a line that doesn't put him down 4 or 5 pawns or a piece and 3 pawns by move 31 . . . he's just flat out lost now Kingpatzer 17:53, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

our response to Ze's demise

Anyone want to vote on if we buy Ze a consolation prize for letting us have this much fun? I haven't pledged yet, but I'll toss in a few bucks to get him one of his books anyway. This game has been a hoot. I realize we don't have to, after all, he's lost (well not yet, but soon), but it'd be kind of cool to treat him to something off his list for letting us have all this fun. Kingpatzer 17:58, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Why not Das Max und Moritz Buch? It's what we were going to buy him when we weren't sure how much money we could raise. Heh...that sounds funny now. PTWhipplebang 18:04, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Also, I don't think it makes much sense to buy him something too expensive, since technically we don't owe him anything. PTWhipplebang 18:06, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Sounds like a good plan. Lets set up voting for this. It's very arrogant to work on a consolation prize before we have won, that's why I love the idea. arc

I would definitely kick in something for the consolation prize. I think that's a great idea. This has been fun! Snark

I agree, I mean after all, he brings a few minuets of quality entertainment to us for free every day. M4cfr34k 02:08, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

Me too. I haven't been participating, or even following very closely (no time), but it has been fun to watch it progress. I'll kick in. --Sford 09:10, 4 August 2006 (PDT)