bobisimo:BioWare/Obsidian games often times have a court/trial scene in them where you have to talk to individual voters and attempt to convince them to vote one way or another. To varying degrees, I think most of BioWare's games have had such a scene. This is definitely a cliche I've enjoyed.

Yeah... I like this one too... That trial scene in NWN2 was one of the most effective scenes in the game... and for a while I thought it was one of the best scenes in any game that I had played. Then I hit the trial scene in Dragon Age... and it was better!

I'd disagree. The trial scene only seems cool until the end(whether you're winning or losing) where the designers laugh at you and say "all of this legal stuff doesn't matter, it's time for your gladiatorial fight!"

Oh, and some of you should read others' posts before posting duplicate comments.

There is the 'endgame-choice', of course. It doesn't matter how good or bad you played the game, at the end you'll have to make a single choice that will change the world. And, dear reader, you will do this by selecting your outcome of choice in a little textwindow. I could be mayorly improved, but I still like the idea. It's always fun to be the single reason why a world will survive or perish, even if it's done so poorly.

Anyway, a few examples:

- Fallout 3. Sacrifice, sacrifice the girl, or screw the world?- KoTOR. Save the world or beat the bad-guy and become the bad-guy yourself? Not to mention Bastila. - Dragon Age. Sacrifice, or survive at the cost of not destroying the bad guy's soul?

teisjm:Also, you forgot the "chainmail bikinis on a "hot chicks" offers as much protection as the 100 lbs chainmail the male character wears. but you sortof commented on that in the latest stolen pixels, so you're forgiven, the ninja-army has been called back, and you may live...for now.

I wouldn't use a ninja army because if you get more than 3 ninja together then their skill is inversely proportional to the amount of ninja or Power = 1/ninja(the inverse ninja formula).

OT:There's also the fact that if a structure is big enough when it is abandoned it is always a hideout for something and still has treasure in it no matter how long it was abandoned.

But ninja's are one man armys, so one will do, 2 will be more than enough.

there was an arena in dragon age? did i miss out on something? a little reminder would be appreciated.edit: did you mean the short arena fights at the beginning of the commoner dwarf origin?, does any of the other origins even do that? (only played as commoner dwarf and 6 hours in on a magi elf)

i love the cliche where when confronted whit the mass murder bad guy who killed your entire family in front of you,he/she/it tells you a sad story or try to justify everything so you will let him go, if done well i will actually feel compelled to say "oh well, shit happens mate".

1: Treasure chests- seriously, the chest makers in RPGs must be rich. And closely connected1.5: chests that are worth more than their contents

2: "Oh, hello Mr. Hero. I know that you're the only son of some god or other and you just got back from slaying 5 doom dragons at the same time, and after consuming their essence, you're the most powerful being in existence. But before I'll give you the key to the villain's fortress, you must prove your worth." Why?

"The Pitt" DLC for fallout3 did a terrible job of the imprisoned scenario, I played it with my endgame character on stock difficulty, walked up to the gates obliterating everyone, then I walk through a door and I'm downed by like three lackeys with shiny sticks. That kinda ruined the area for me, combined with the fact that I spec'd energy weps and they made me use small guns almost the whole time.

swaki:there was an arena in dragon age? did i miss out on something? a little reminder would be appreciated.edit: did you mean the short arena fights at the beginning of the commoner dwarf origin?, does any of the other origins even do that? (only played as commoner dwarf and 6 hours in on

There is a series of arena fights when you come back to Orzmaar (sp?) as part of the main quest. At least, I had to do it to get in to see Harrowmont. (sp?)

swaki:there was an arena in dragon age? did i miss out on something? a little reminder would be appreciated.edit: did you mean the short arena fights at the beginning of the commoner dwarf origin?, does any of the other origins even do that? (only played as commoner dwarf and 6 hours in on

There is a series of arena fights when you come back to Orzmaar (sp?) as part of the main quest. At least, I had to do it to get in to see Harrowmont. (sp?)

yeah, if you choose to support Harrowmont when getting help from the Dwarves then you fight in the arena, I dont believe you do if you help Bhelen. It's not a true arena though because it isnt a side quest like usual, its just dwarves punching on.Also, the arena isnt confined to RPGs, the arenas have usually been my favourite parts of ratchet and clank games.

swaki:there was an arena in dragon age? did i miss out on something? a little reminder would be appreciated.edit: did you mean the short arena fights at the beginning of the commoner dwarf origin?, does any of the other origins even do that? (only played as commoner dwarf and 6 hours in on

There is a series of arena fights when you come back to Orzmaar (sp?) as part of the main quest. At least, I had to do it to get in to see Harrowmont. (sp?)

Totally missed this with my arcane warrior. Supported Bhelen because Harrowmont sounded like a cheating jerk.

swaki:there was an arena in dragon age? did i miss out on something? a little reminder would be appreciated.edit: did you mean the short arena fights at the beginning of the commoner dwarf origin?, does any of the other origins even do that? (only played as commoner dwarf and 6 hours in on

There is a series of arena fights when you come back to Orzmaar (sp?) as part of the main quest. At least, I had to do it to get in to see Harrowmont. (sp?)

Totally missed this with my arcane warrior. Supported Bhelen because Harrowmont sounded like a cheating jerk.

It was hard to support Bhelen after playing the Dwarven Origin and find out what kind of bastard he was. Actually, it was a bad idea playing all of origins before moving past to ostagar.

hittite:1: Treasure chests- seriously, the chest makers in RPGs must be rich. And closely connected1.5: chests that are worth more than their contents

2: "Oh, hello Mr. Hero. I know that you're the only son of some god or other and you just got back from slaying 5 doom dragons at the same time, and after consuming their essence, you're the most powerful being in existence. But before I'll give you the key to the villain's fortress, you must prove your worth." Why?

Treasure chests, but for a different reason. They lie all over the place, in people's houses, in the streets, in the wilderness, on rooftops. However, only the PC ever seems to open them. I'm sure with all the bandits that seem to be wandering around, at least a couple of the chests would have been pillaged by the time good ol' hero finds them.

The fact that the vast majority of the chests are unlocked amplifies this. Not complaining, just saying it's kind of funny to think about.

DeathQuaker:It's the difference between a cliche and a trope. Trope are reused story devices for a reason: because they work, because they provide entertainment. Cliches are the same when they're done wrong/shallowly/repeated without good intention.

I would have agreed with Shamus article had he had the care to use the proper term, which truly is "trope", in the context he was referring to.

Even so, tropes super re-used (then a cliche) like the "only you can save the world" one are really exhausted by now, in a point where there should be more game writing focused toward subverting and exploring what has being well established over two freaking decades ago.

The poor groups of raiders and bandits with cardboard armor and flimsy weapons who decide that it's a good idea to attack the heavily armored, high-level rogue carrying a giant magical mace/miniature nuclear missile launcher.

That said, I don't think there is such a thing as a good OR bad clique when it comes to fantasy, it all comes down to the writing and presentation. Anything can be made to seem cool, or incredibly stupid depending on how well it's done.

The absolute best writers can even take the extremely corny (never mind stuff that is used well) and make it seem cool at the same time. :)

Speaking of which this has sort of make me realize that Naughty Dog *REALLY* need to remake "Keef The Thief".

Yes, it's stupid. If I left my car sitting exposed to the elements for just ten years I don't expect it would start up on the first try afterward. Yes, traps with wooden moving parts that remain functional for hundreds of years at the bottom of a damp cave are ludicrous, as are the monsters that live there without setting them off. The fact that traps of stone and wood so often seem to have optical or light-based mechanisms is more than a little goofy. And the ever-burning torches on the walls and the glowing crystals that light the place are kind of messed up too.

But screw you. Tombs and ruins are fun.

Possibly justified in Morrowind's Dwemer ruins. The robots were used to maintain the place long after their masters' disappearance.

Although now I'm thinking. Is there a game that actually makes the player carry a torch/lantern/magic doodad for be shrouded in completed darkness? I could see it adding a bit of tension, but more likely serve as an annoyance. I remember playing Oblivion and needing to crank up the gamma because it was too dark to see otherwise.

Kitsuna10060:the 'love interest' sub plots, Final Fantasy has gotten really bad about it lately (EI since 7) , while yea, can see it happening, but dose it need to be in every 'epic world saving quest'

.... and why do i always need to 'save' it all the time .... i've only played ONE rpg where i actualy ended the world ( SMT Nocturne fyi) >.> might reflect poorly on me, but i'd atleast like the option to end the world

In Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen you can choose weather to save the world or ruin it. The sequels build upon the assumption that you chose the latter too.

Kitsuna10060:the 'love interest' sub plots, Final Fantasy has gotten really bad about it lately (EI since 7) , while yea, can see it happening, but dose it need to be in every 'epic world saving quest'

.... and why do i always need to 'save' it all the time .... i've only played ONE rpg where i actualy ended the world ( SMT Nocturne fyi) >.> might reflect poorly on me, but i'd atleast like the option to end the world

In Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen you can choose weather to save the world or ruin it. The sequels build upon the assumption that you chose the latter too.

Hmmm, well I tend to think they are (I am guessing you are disagreeing?). Like it or not those are the stereotypes coming from vintage fantasy and that is what people are trying to emulate in RPGs and such. New twists on those ideas are okay to an extent, but I think the basics need to be retained to have something to compare them to.

I see it as being like comic books, people occasionally whine about "white knight heroes" and how awesome all of these "new Dark Heroes" are so cool (even if they aren't all that new). I feel the whole idea misses something when you don't have any traditional heroes very active in a comic universe to form a counterpoint to. Plus as time goes on I find myself cheering more and more for the "White Knight" guys because oddly I find a lot of the nasty Dark Hero stuff has actually made them even cooler when they manage to stick to their guns like that.

In a sword and sorcery genere more and more frequently involving all of these convuluted concepts (both in novels and RPGs and such) I ironically find myself increasingly cheering for (and thinking fondly of) relatively simplistic and straightforward characters. Like oh, say Conan. In one "PnP" game I played via message boards a few years ago (albeit by message board) I made a very simplistic fighter type based on Conan who was so classic nobody seemed to get it (but I was older than everyone involved). I sort of freaked out the players when we wound up being involved in a botched robbery where a murder occured and I pretty much acted like Conan did in "The God In The Bowl" and just flat out said "I'm here because I came to rob the place, I didn't kill the guy because I had no reason to" and strongly implied that if the guy HAD caught me I probably would have done so and they never would have found the body. The reaction was kind of priceless to be honest the set up was so perfect from what is probably one of the all time famous fantasy short stories. The Conan movie (the first one) even having combined the gimmicks from "The God In The Bowl" and "Tower Of The Elephant" in the tower sequence as a sort of a nod to fans because of those stories. :P

Irridium:The "Break into random people's houses and take their shit. While they watch, and even greet you kindly after you steal all their possesions and sell them for armor/items/money/crack." cliche is still going strong today.

Actually Dragon Age lampshaded that, in the elf camp if you ask the keeper for supplies he says "sure talk to the dude over there", first time around I went wandering, looted everything in the place, then went and spoke to him, I asked him for supplies and he informed me "it's in that chest over there... but you already know that" in such a voice I felt like a little kid again.

In a room filled with hostiles, moving through he dialogue tree, and then choosing a reasonable comment that sets off the hostile leader, plunging the party into combat where the main tactic is "if it breathes, kill it".

I like these moments just because i enjoy going back to the last save and finding out if there was anything that could be done to avoid combat. Most of the time, it turns out that combat is inevitable. Hope you enjoyed all the health potions you had. You're going to need them.

My favorite is the 'massive quantities of random chests/barrels/cupboards which have valuable stuff which no-one except you ever thought to pinch'

Take fallout 3: You're in a post apocalyptic world in which people scavenge for food and drink and such. But no one except you is smart enough to go up to that old coke machine and steal the juicy coke inside.

mrverbal:My favorite is the 'massive quantities of random chests/barrels/cupboards which have valuable stuff which no-one except you ever thought to pinch'

Take fallout 3: You're in a post apocalyptic world in which people scavenge for food and drink and such. But no one except you is smart enough to go up to that old coke machine and steal the juicy coke inside.

i love fallout 3 but even i admit it did seem like it was maybe 10 years after the war not 200 considering all the crap that was still laying round in pretty much perfect condition. oh look a medical container on the wall. hmmm i wonder why not a single one in the entire capital wasteland in 200 yeas has been looted. i understand the pc needs medical gear but the 200 year gap made it really weird.

hmm i guess one of the stereotypes ive relied on so much is the crap almost about to die i must quaff this healing potion. ta da perfect health!!!

ive been playing mount and blade recently and the no healing potions, magical gear etc has been a good change

Those are good chiche's you wrote down, but what about the bad ones? I'm sure there is a lot of bad ones.I hate this one ''Do I Have to do EVERYTHING Around Here?''. For example, in Mount&Blade (half baked RPG game by somebody with low budget) you don't have to do everything. If someone's attacking a castle, you can join, but you can just wait and do nothing. When somebody is attacking you can attack back, but you can order your troops to attack while you do nothing. In one quest you have to train some peasants so that they could defend themselves against bandits.When I'm doing everything completely alone, i feel like I'm an idiot. If i can take all the bad guys all by myself, why can't others defend themselves? What's the point of having charisma and dialogue choices if i can even tell them to help me?Wouldn't it be good to have ''charisma'' to actually DO something? I want a game where there is an option to talk your way out of most situations, but you would have to put all your experience point's in charisma, and you probably wouldn't get a lot of stuff.And i hate caves and tombs.

"Welcome to our town, stranger. The king has been poisoned, the well is contaminated, the princess has been kidnapped, the drawbridge is broken, the fields are overrun with wolves, we lost contact with the monastery, the merchants are all squabbling about something, the dock workers are rioting, the inn is infested with rats, there are undead in the graveyard, one of the ships is under quarantine, there's a curse on the temple, several town guards are taking bribes, an evil mage has been kidnapping young women, a supply shipment is over a week late, the Duke hasn't been acting like himself lately, a bad minstrel is annoying people in the town square, goblins have moved into our sprawling sewer system, widow Creekjoint has lost her cat, a priceless artifact has gone missing, and we've got an entrenched criminal organization that we're all too chickenshit to fight. If you could fix all that we'd be much obliged."