Silhouette - jack i love your striking articles but there is a lot of misinformation in this one IMO

Saku didnt really ever use a "turk", a turk would be lifting the leg high with his heel to the sky. He hooked renzos leg because thats the way they came down after the turn and coming off the ropes, and most catch guys routinely hit the kimura from there as when he tapped Royler it started in half guard.

when he tapped royler he was in north south, and the sub came from a pass attempt from half guard, he locked it up and methodically moved to side to north south

Saku did not routinely give his back up, against randleman he was tripped then slammed, early in the fight it was a failed kick, against renzo he bounced off the ropes after a sweep attempt. He was a wrestler, so he came up to all fours, but he never "gave up" his back.

Against Royce the almost kneebar you talk about was hit off a failed takedown attempt by royce. Saku dropped his hips as if to hit a sit out then grabbed the knee from there. Saku was hunting the kneebar early from a lot of scrambles

Saku was a master of always having good positioning, to say he put himself in calculated danger is just wrong imo, He was always in good position and putting his opponents in bad situations

"Saku did not routinely give his back up"

He did vs Ryan. In the Renzo fight, I think Renzo took it more than Saku giving it up but at the same time, I think Saku didnt mind giving it up because of the kimura. Although I dont think anyone took Saku's back with hooks? I cant remember how Sak and Royce ended up with Sak having the kimura grip and his head sticking out of the ropes where he smiled. I think he was briefly in the position vs Wand in the second fight though Wand smartly disengaged quickly just like he opted out of the armbar he had on Sak which would have given Saku the opportunity to scramble had Wand failed the armbar.

Hey Jack, Id like to read the article in more detail later but in general, I think its worth adding that Saku was perhaps not so much "antitechnique" though I get what you mean with this but the first significant anti-BJJ grappler. Up to then, we had the wrestlers like Severn and Coleman change the game but no wrestler was also a super dangerous submission guy until Sak came along. Much like how GSP opts out to take the back with hooks against BJJ guys like Diaz and Serra, you can still take advantage of ground positions without playing the orthodox BJJ game. Sak kicking the legs of a flopped guard for example. Or how he would try and pass the guard without really engaging fully in it - turning and shucking the leg by or the cartwheel or also jumping over and stomping or in the case of Royce punching as he came down. The cartwheel passes are also in BJJ but its not really standard passing form.

I think this is similar to using your reach or sticking and moving in boxing. Hitting your opponent while not letting your opponent hit you. Sak attempts to pass guard by just engaging enough to pass the legs but without letting the guarded opponent get a full clinch on Sak. Melendez used a similar strategy vs Aoki on the ground where he didnt fully engage the guard but just enough to GNP. I do think Saku could have developed his game more technically and methodically had he not been continuously fed to the larger opponents. I already saw his tech getting a bit sloppier in the Rampage fight and Rampage was still pretty green to the sub game then.

However, i think the strength of Sak was that he had a strong free game with a clever and unorthodox submission game. Matt Hughes would later come into his own with subs but he was actually a more orthodox grappler than Sak, he would get the td, GNP, pass, GNP and/or sub. Sak was a bit more high flying in his sub pursuits. I guess this is why the Saku/Newton fight is still held in such high regard to this day just like the combo of matches between Diaz/Diego/Karo where there were great grappling exchanges from both guys.

In the royce fight when saku was smiling it was off a failed heel hook attempt by royce. When saku rolled out, Royce just followed him up and took the back, Saku immediately took the kimura grip.

then after resetting Royce tried a shot that was again countered by a kimura grip by Sak. After that volley they were in that position a minute. Sak attempted a hip toss that again ended with Royce on his back.

Renzo only got on saku's back once at the end of the fight after the sweep attempt by Renzo, which resulted in Sak bouncing off the ropes, to sittin on renzos neck, renzo just back doored and took the back which led to the finish by kimura

Ryan disengaged almost everytime the back was presented. i think sak only went there once on purpose early in the fight and Ryan disengaged after the reset to the middle.

My argument was not that he didnt get his back taken, it was that he did not routinely allow people on his back (he didnt give up the back position).

Wasa-B - Hey Jack, Id like to read the article in more detail later but in general, I think its worth adding that Saku was perhaps not so much "antitechnique" though I get what you mean with this but the first significant anti-BJJ grappler. Up to then, we had the wrestlers like Severn and Coleman change the game but no wrestler was also a super dangerous submission guy until Sak came along. Much like how GSP opts out to take the back with hooks against BJJ guys like Diaz and Serra, you can still take advantage of ground positions without playing the orthodox BJJ game. Sak kicking the legs of a flopped guard for example. Or how he would try and pass the guard without really engaging fully in it - turning and shucking the leg by or the cartwheel or also jumping over and stomping or in the case of Royce punching as he came down. The cartwheel passes are also in BJJ but its not really standard passing form.

I think this is similar to using your reach or sticking and moving in boxing. Hitting your opponent while not letting your opponent hit you. Sak attempts to pass guard by just engaging enough to pass the legs but without letting the guarded opponent get a full clinch on Sak. Melendez used a similar strategy vs Aoki on the ground where he didnt fully engage the guard but just enough to GNP. I do think Saku could have developed his game more technically and methodically had he not been continuously fed to the larger opponents. I already saw his tech getting a bit sloppier in the Rampage fight and Rampage was still pretty green to the sub game then.

However, i think the strength of Sak was that he had a strong free game with a clever and unorthodox submission game. Matt Hughes would later come into his own with subs but he was actually a more orthodox grappler than Sak, he would get the td, GNP, pass, GNP and/or sub. Sak was a bit more high flying in his sub pursuits. I guess this is why the Saku/Newton fight is still held in such high regard to this day just like the combo of matches between Diaz/Diego/Karo where there were great grappling exchanges from both guys.

this is a very good analysis

You very rarely saw sak get a guard closed around him because of the position he was in. As Wasa B said he stayed at the perfect distance to work his passing and never really put himself in danger while still achieving the pass. And often times do unorthodox stuff like the stomps, slides, cartwheels

GarlicSauce - I've ever watched Sakuraba fights or known why he was so revered. This is a first step to knowing. It's smart of you to explain the subject this way, because there *are* a lot of people who only know UFC's MMA. Great job.

Great to see your honesty. I recommend that you start with UFC 1 to UFC 14 then switch to Pride 1 then watch both promotions chronologically. You will get a real sense of the evolution of the sport and a new or renewed appreciation of the fighters that have fought in both organisations....

As for Sakuraba...One of the greats. Sakuraba to me was the link between the early dominance of BJJ and fighters being one style focused and the evolution towards becoming a more complete all-round fighter.

I REALLY wish there were more fighters like Sakuraba in the UFC. He showed that you didn't have to use the guard and all these BJJ techniques to perform submissions against other grapplers. A moment that I'll never forget is Vitor Belfort laying on his back trying to get Sakuraba to come into his guard and Sak just high jumping over his legs to stomp on his face. I think in the future we'll see someone that is able to wrestle like GSP but is able to finish fights with submissions from those dominant wrestling positions the way guys like Ken Shamrock and Sakuraba used to do.

jacktripper - Has there ever been a fighter more pushed by his promotion?

Takada was literally the pride figurehead and sak was thei premiere fighter from takada dojo (not to mention all the fixed fights takada was involved in)

Sure there has...

Nick Diaz by Strikeforce, Kimbo by EliteXC - they were spoon fed tailor made opponents.

Until quite recently Michael Bisping by the UFC, also Belfort to a degree.

Can you give an example of anything remotely close to sak being portrayed as Mario vs randleman being cast as a subhuman ape by a promotion?

How about extra rounds being tacked on when bispong was losing a decision?

Anything...

Oh I'm sorry I thought you meant the actual fights. Hype is a little different - of course the Japanese hyped their only top quality fighter.

I thought you meant actually pushing a fighter through favorable match ups, like giving Nick Diaz no wrestlers for six years or putting Kimbo up against guys with glass jaws, That seems a lot more like pushing than making Saku fight legitimate opponents.

Are you talking about the Mezger fight? Because I would hardly say Mezger was owed a victory at all. How about the stand ups between Belfort and Johnson?

jacktripper - Has there ever been a fighter more pushed by his promotion?

Takada was literally the pride figurehead and sak was thei premiere fighter from takada dojo (not to mention all the fixed fights takada was involved in)

Sure there has...

Nick Diaz by Strikeforce, Kimbo by EliteXC - they were spoon fed tailor made opponents.

Until quite recently Michael Bisping by the UFC, also Belfort to a degree.

Can you give an example of anything remotely close to sak being portrayed as Mario vs randleman being cast as a subhuman ape by a promotion?

How about extra rounds being tacked on when bispong was losing a decision?

Anything...

Oh I'm sorry I thought you meant the actual fights. Hype is a little different - of course the Japanese hyped their only top quality fighter.

I thought you meant actually pushing a fighter through favorable match ups, like giving Nick Diaz no wrestlers for six years or putting Kimbo up against guys with glass jaws, That seems a lot more like pushing than making Saku fight legitimate opponents.

Are you talking about the Mezger fight? Because I would hardly say Mezger was owed a victory at all. How about the stand ups between Belfort and Johnson?

This thing again. Well, though I would be the first to admit Pride could have exercised a little more tact the Mario/Donkey Kong thing, there is not a history of portraying black people as apes in Japan. It doesnt make it "right" per se but there's your context at the same time too. Also, it was well within keeping in Sak's fun and goofy entrances. And historical discrimination aside, does Randleman not have the build of a silverback? Is his vertical leaping abilities not animal like (in the complimentary fashion)? Again, not that its free from criticism but i dont think it had the "subhuman" intent either.

Yes, the extra round thing was def shady, just as i dont agree with the Royler stoppage. However, that was hardly a slam dunk for Mezger pre-extra round and this is Pride's fault but since it was a GP match, in the event of a draw, what would they do? And was it that controversial to score that a draw? Cant remember too if the 10kg rule was in place? Mezger was def that much bigger than Sak.

The other thing too is that Pride used Sak like a piece of meat. The exploited him. So while he may have had favourable treatment in the Mezger and Royler fights, he was hardly a paper champion in the tradition of being fed cans and given favourable matchups. Remember that Pride allowed knees/kicks on the ground right before Sak/Wand 1 which completely disfavours Sak because of his turtling tendencies (not to mention anything about fighting the larger, vicious killer in Wand).

I think the UFC has been pretty legit in giving everyone competitive, let the strong survive matchup for the most part nevermind the standups between Vitor and Johnson, what about the huge game changing standup for Bas and TK (though that was pre-Zuffa) in a championship fight for whom they brought it and marketed as the next champ?

jacktripper - Has there ever been a fighter more pushed by his promotion?

Takada was literally the pride figurehead and sak was thei premiere fighter from takada dojo (not to mention all the fixed fights takada was involved in)

Sure there has...

Nick Diaz by Strikeforce, Kimbo by EliteXC - they were spoon fed tailor made opponents.

Until quite recently Michael Bisping by the UFC, also Belfort to a degree.

Can you give an example of anything remotely close to sak being portrayed as Mario vs randleman being cast as a subhuman ape by a promotion?

How about extra rounds being tacked on when bispong was losing a decision?

Anything...

Oh I'm sorry I thought you meant the actual fights. Hype is a little different - of course the Japanese hyped their only top quality fighter.

I thought you meant actually pushing a fighter through favorable match ups, like giving Nick Diaz no wrestlers for six years or putting Kimbo up against guys with glass jaws, That seems a lot more like pushing than making Saku fight legitimate opponents.

Are you talking about the Mezger fight? Because I would hardly say Mezger was owed a victory at all. How about the stand ups between Belfort and Johnson?

You might want to take a look at nicks record if you actually believe he wasn't matched against anyone with wrestling credentials... I almost have to wonder if you're trolling a bit

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