Non-vegan Vegan

Recently I was having Sunday brunch at Chicago Diner 1 with my favorite 2 science-based nutrition experts 3. After the bloody mary started soaking into my freshly reanimated constitution the crank part of my brain started warming up and I boasted about my own non-vegan-ness. I said something to the effect on how I don’t consider the small animal ingredients in products I consume. I was asked for examples and that’s as far as that ethanol took me before I became stumped to provide as such.

A few days later that conversation was bouncing around my head and I brought the question to the Twitters via a hashtag dubbed #VeganNonVegan. 4 Here were some responses (many were mine).

“I was asked on-the-spot ‘what are the non-vegan things you eat’ and I was stumped. So you tell me vegan nonvegans at #VeganNonVegan“.

I eat the free fortune cookies that come with my vegan chinese food regardless of the ingredients.

I drink alcoholic beverages regardless of its status at the Book of @barnivore or what it was fucking filtered with.

I eat graham crackers even if they contain honey.

I will eat a veggie burger if I am somewhere and have no other options – without checking the ingredients.

I will eat the “vegan burger” without asking about the bun.

I will also eat fries without worrying if they were fried in oil used for frying other things. :O

In a pinch I’ll eat a Subway veggie patty sandwich because the rest is practically air anyways.

Sure, I’ll slum up on the fast-food tip and chow a Burger King BKVeggie. Yes, fries with that.

The vegans in the audience are going D: after that list and the non-vegans are realizing how deep the rabbit hole goes with this whole vegan thing.

Veganism is a dubious and hazy line. Regardless of the choices there is likely to be some collateral damage no matter how hard we strive to avoid them. Now vegans have a litany of responses to these types of quandaries due to the barrage of disingenuous gotchas from animal eating trolls. But I KNOW THEM ALL MUTHAFUCKAHS. I was on the streets handing out the Vegan Outreaches, tabling fairs, administrating message boards, running vegan meetups for years and years, dude…I. know. And if you bust out the utilitarian abacus on me I will puke boredom all over you.

I’m a hypocrite? Damn straight I am! You too unless you like to shit on the majority of people5 on this planet starving while you post your 583rd vegan food pr0n instagram. I’ve met dedicated hardcore animal rights activists who only work for companion animals and eat animals. Because of that vegans have a special sort of vitriol for them and that’s shameful. I hate that sort of attitude and I don’t want any part of it.

Am I driving demand? Voting with my dollar? I really don’t think so. Boycotts are leveraged with purpose. A general application in the way veganism is wielded doesn’t inspire confidence in meaningful change. And what does that say of people who have less “votes”? 6

It’s actually been kinda hard to let some of my vegan-ness go. When I catch myself squinting at a label it just feels wrong and irrational. What magic vegan in the sky is peering down on me making sure I’m being good? What difference does it really make? Sometimes I make it a special point just to do so to remind me that I am not vegan, I am an animal liberationist. I’d rather seek paths of change than flagellate myself over a modicum of animal derived ingredients. The never-ending game of NOT VEGAN misses the forest for the trees. It’s less of a hassle for me to give up this “lifestyle” for the original reason I started in the first place than it is to continuously be undermined by vegans. The Vegan Police doesn’t have sway over me anymore, I’m out of their jurisdiction.

So, what non-vegan thing do you do, animal advocate? Do you dare to say or do you fear reprisal of the Vegan Police? Is that more important than the supposed issue of animal justice for which vegans sometimes give lip service?7 The comments are below,8 join me and free yourself!9 For the animals.10

99 comments to Non-vegan Vegan

Ha, Eff the Vegan Police, I say! I consider myself a vegan but in reality you’re as vegan as I am. The argument that annoys me the most is that if I call myself vegan and then eat a doughnut, *real* vegans will have people assuming vegans ALL eat doughnuts and then they might accidentally eat a doughnut someone gave to them claiming it is vegan… ruining their purity. Well, eff that person! They want me to *not* say I’m vegan for their convenience, but I call myself vegan for my own convenience (because I prefer to eat as vegan as reasonably possible). If you go much further down the rabbit hole, nobody is truly a perfect vegan anyway. Can you tell I don’t personally know any other vegans, LOL.

Hey Sarah. While I decided to opt-out of veganism myself I’m all for you watering down their standards and ruining purity! 😀 A *real* vegan would never accept food from a 3rd party without exhaustive double-checking anyways. Like you said ‘eff em’! Heh.

Good news, everyone! Seventh Generation paper towels haven’t been made with whey in them since 2009, so you can go back to feeling pure about your wiping.

Let me preface this next statement by saying I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of this post. The number of things I’m hypocritical about could fill a truck. But as a general rule or aspiration, why be more strict about avoiding steak than the factory farmed eggs found in BK Veggie or Subway veggie patty? This is the same question I asked on twitter: do you think making exceptions for nonvegan veggie patties is more appropriate for a vegan than making an exception for, say, a the Subway philly cheese steak or a ham egg and cheese?

PS – I’m not trying to argue about the veganosity of things. I’m not interested in splitting hairs either. I don’t think it matters one way or the other if you get a Veggie Patty, an Italian BMT, or a Veggie Delite (either way the money’s going to Subway). Just want to know if you think there’s a difference that makes a difference here.

Wow, vegans sure do love to talk about what’s vegan and not vegan. I remember some of the longest threads on message boards had to do with honey. What a bore to me now. Well, lemme rummage around here for my old vegan abacus… oh here it is.
Huh, must be broked, sorry.

“Am I driving demand? Voting with my dollar? I really don’t think so. … What magic vegan in the sky is peering down on me making sure I’m being good? What difference does it really make?”

Wouldn’t these questions also apply to buying liver? Or does this only hold true when there are many ingredients and animal products are only a few of them, and are toward the bottom of the label? Those little bits eventually add up. So could a non-vegan vegan make a point of only eating foods that are strictly devoid of animal products, but then every once in a while buy a steak?

It seems like the non-vegan vegan idea is a way to strike a balance between ideology and personal convenience that leans slightly more toward convenience than traditional veganism does. But how far do you have to swing toward convenience/enjoyment and away from ideology until non-vegan veganism becomes simply non-veganism?

It seems to be about perception. The animal you can perceive, see, taste (a liver sandwich) is not vegan. The animal you can’t perceive, see, or taste (the egg in the BK veggie, the isinglass filtered beer, the honey or whey in the bread, the french fries fried in the same oil as chicken fingers, or the veggie burger made on the same grill as a hot dog) qualify as non-vegan vegan.

Too lazy to make a “puking boredom” animation. I did enough image hacking tonight (although I sure do love it)! My whole point is that I’m sick of playing the veganocity game and I won’t indulge it especially said so in the post. *snore*

At risk of making you dry heave boredom, I’m curious to know what it means to be a non-vegan animal liberationist who is against direct action. You seem to have rejected the only two approaches to animal liberation that I (perhaps in my limited imagination) am aware of: freeing animals by not using them and encouraging other people not to use them, and freeing animals by breaking open their cages. What’s left?

My answer to this question would be to think in the aggregate. Isolated individual decisions matter less than habit. Habit matters less than structural factors.

If I eat one turkey sandwich, it matters very little in the grand scheme of things (to be reductive about it, it – more or less – matters only to that one turkey and the responsibility for eating that turkey is distributed across a number of people who raised, sold, and ate it).

If I make a habit of eating turkey sandwiches, we scale up the impact.

But where things get real are at the structural level. Social structures have a much greater impact on how animals are raised and what people eat than individual consumer choices. For example, when Rhode Island banned gestation crates yesterday that made a difference. When a bunch of Fortune 500 companies phased out gestation crates, that made a difference. (A great difference? A revolution in how we eat? No, but still. Progress. Much more than an individual who decides to disavow honey.) That’s where meaningful change will come from – at the structural level.

Another example of this would be something like Meatless Monday. If in an ideal situation we could reduce animal consumption by 1/7, we would do more for animals than if we converted 10% of the population to ethical veganism. There are problems with this example – I get that – but the point is we can still make a greater impact by restructuring our relationship to food than we can by blowing the whole thing up with a militant, dogmatic, zero-tolerance, animal liberation agenda.

I keep coming back to Adam’s theory of veganism as a social modality rather than a set of consumer habits, a way of being with the world, a way of creating a more habitable world in which to dwell. I really think that’s one of the smartest things I’ve ever read on the topic of veganism. I think it’s applicable here.

but the point is we can still make a greater impact by restructuring our relationship to food than we can by blowing the whole thing up with a militant, dogmatic, zero-tolerance, animal liberation agenda.

The Wizard of Oz called and he wants his strawman back.

I keep coming back to Adam’s theory of veganism as a social modality rather than a set of consumer habits, a way of being with the world, a way of creating a more habitable world in which to dwell. I really think that’s one of the smartest things I’ve ever read on the topic of veganism. I think it’s applicable here.

I’m not familiar with Adam’s “theory of veganism” but if it’s anything like the dozens of other vegan writers it sounds like just another backward attempt to shoehorn an existing praxis into some justified ideology. A social modality based on rationality and ethics is not the exclusive to veganism.

1) Animal liberation isn’t inherently a)militant b)dogmatic c)zero-tolerance. It’s an idea of fairness towards other animals and doesn’t have a “lifestyle” to codify it. (and I know what’s next) For those who justify the characterizations you echoed I denounce. They don’t represent me. (and this is another difference with veganism) The same is often not true for vegans who’ll placate the woo within their own ranks because anything that “gets people vegan” is justifiable (aka compromising values) and beyond reproach.

2) I’ll be sure to rush out and search for it when I find a few fucks. I’m really beating that meme to death aren’t i? 🙂

But (last thing, unless it’s not) (and we agree that veganism and animal rights are not the same thing) veganism also isn’t inherently a) militant b) dogmatic c) zero-tolerance and d) about compromising values. You have demonstrated so here. Your descriptions of the “vegan ranks” does not apply to me and, yet, I’m vegan. I know the people you’re talking about – there are a lot of them and they are very loud and annoying – but they don’t represent veganism anymore than Camille Marino represents animal liberation.

But (last thing, unless it’s not) (and we agree that veganism and animal rights are not the same thing) veganism also isn’t inherently a) militant b) dogmatic c) zero-tolerance and d) about compromising values. You have demonstrated so here. Your descriptions of the “vegan ranks” does not apply to me and, yet, I’m vegan. I know the people you’re talking about – there are a lot of them and they are very loud and annoying – but they don’t represent veganism anymore than Camille Marino represents animal liberation.

Right, and I’ll admit that I often paint vegans that way but it’s for them to denounce that shit when they see it just as I do in my own camp. I feel that vegans, because they have a code for which they must abide and often get policed are too intimidated or have less flexibility to challenge. That’s the difference. Every movement has their fucknuts but veganism is a rich media for which they thrive. Animal lib is more a framework.

Yeah, veganism’s just larger (largely because of the environmental vegans and, especially, the health vegans) and has a much more visible presence in our culture. But I’ll give you an example: yesterday I criticized Erik Marcus on facebook for bullying an omnivore on twitter. He sent me a message and we had a long exchange in which I explained to him why I didn’t think he was serving vegan or animal interests. He then deleted my post from his page.

It’s annoying. But I’m quite confident that it has less to do with “veganism” as an ideology than it does with individual egos (I think back to Erik Marcus’s “Who Wants to be an Animal Millionaire?” idea – it’s fetishistic narcissism masquerading as advocacy).

At risk of making you dry heave boredom, I’m curious to know what it means to be a non-vegan animal liberationist who is against direct action. You seem to have rejected the only two approaches to animal liberation that I (perhaps in my limited imagination) am aware of: freeing animals by not using them and encouraging other people not to use them, and freeing animals by breaking open their cages. What’s left?

Nah, that’s actually a good question that cuts to the heart of the matter (leave it to a non-vegan). I actually do think direct action is a valid approach. It’s the violent direct action that I don’t support. The answer to what animal liberationists do to make change is up to them to figure out. We can look to other social justice movements for clues but ultimately there will have to be some innovation to account for this time, context and novelty.

Ugh, dude, relax. No one’s trying to catch you in your hypocrisy. This is not about who’s less sanctimonious than whom (as fun as that reversal would be). I eat fries cooked with chicken tenders, I eat food cooked on the same grill, I don’t ask the subway sandwich artist to change her gloves, I drink all the nonvegan alcohol, I just had an email exchange where Erik Marcus told me “You rub me the wrong way,” I serve meat at the soup kitchen, I eat Boca Burgers and thereby giving money to Kraft so they farm the shit out of more cows. I eat Subway, the single largest wholesale purchaser of turkey meat in the country. So I’m there with you.

But you clearly do draw a line, even if it’s a dotted line. You clearly DO give a fuck at some point. Otherwise you would eat everything. Everybody draws the line somewhere (even Rhys!). This is not about the veganocity game and this is not about policing veganism and this is not about the utilitarian abacus. You could be a vegan who eats bacon, I’d say “That works!” You could be a vegan who eats Thanksgiving turkey, I’d say “That works!” You could be a vegan who eats birthday cake, I’d say “That works!” I think Rhys is a better vegan than most vegans.

Just curious how you draw the line and why. What I think you really mean when you say “I give zero fucks” is “I give zero fucks what you think of my eating habits.” That’s fine, but clearly you have some personal justification for “I think my rule of thumb is something along with if the ingredient is in the bottom 1/4 of the list.”

*whew* see, now was that so hard to admit? I’ve been trying to convince animal liberationists that vegans are not their allies but I don’t think they were believing me. This will be a good anecdote to share along with that tired-ass strawman you threw at me.

Just curious how you draw the line and why. What I think you really mean when you say “I give zero fucks” is “I give zero fucks what you think of my eating habits.”

Zero fucks are also given for talking about it. Vegans spend so much time hand wringing over their consumer habits they miss the point. THAT’S MY POINT. So no, I don’t wish to contribute to the noise or indulge vegan obsessions.

Okay, last thing for real. I get why you don’t want to have this conversation – it’s the same reason I never want to have the Dog or the Baby conversation. It’s stupid, irrelevant, and completely misses the point.

Okay, last thing for real. I get why you don’t want to have this conversation – it’s the same reason I never want to have the Dog or the Baby conversation. It’s stupid, irrelevant, and completely misses the point.

About five years ago, this post would’ve really burned my sanctimonious vegan britches. Reading it just now though, it’s like a breath of fresh air. I don’t call myself a vegan anymore, though I do make an effort to live as animal-free as is possible/practical. At some point I just stopped caring about isinglass, carmine, and honey. It’s wonderful to know that I’m not alone.

Oh, and I wonder if that bloody mary you were drinking contained anchovies? You can add that to your list.

Same here, I would have cursed me out something awful I suppose. Well wait, no, it did happen to me but I mostly ignored it. Several years later that idea sprouted.

It’s refreshing to me to know there are others out there! In part that’s what I’m doing. Looking for similar minded peoples!

Oh and BTW on that bloody mary, the Chicago Diner would defiantly have made sure it was vegan through and through. A few years ago they took off my favorite beer they had (St. Peters) because it wasn’t vegan enough. (likely clarified with fish bladders) Somehow the eggs they serve get a pass though. Hmmm…wait! D:

Things like medicine and lotion for my eczema. Don’t worry about fries at fast food much- only McDonald’s cause I already know. Shampoo has a tiny bit of honey, although I don’t care much about honey anyways. And I’d eat freegan if its something I want.

I’m pretty new to the whole veganism thing, if you asked me a year ago whether I’d ever consider giving up animal products I would have laughed in your face. I’ve been trying to keep myself reasonably pure. That said I wouldn’t be averse to some oysters on the half shell when the season rolls back around. I don’t give a fuck that they’re “technically” animals, they don’t have a central nervous system. Also, I bought a bag of honey mustard pretzels not knowing they had whey in them and guess what – I still fucking ate them.

I know, right? I’m a fucking monster! May as well go eat a bacon cheeseburger.

Seriously though, I love your blog. It’s very refreshing to find a rational, science based and non dogmatic take on the issue. Have you covered bivales or honey already? I’m very curious about your stance on these “controversial” issues.

Personally I feel like I know enough about bees and beekeeping to be reasonably sure that there is no significant amount of suffering caused by modern methods (prior to the invention of the removable frame hive of course things were very different), but I’m willing to change my mind if presented with compelling evidence.

Hah, I just googled the link you referenced and I give the same amount. It’s certainly the least charitable possible interpretation of what goes on in an apiary. And also the least scientific. I’m no entomologist but I’m pretty sure that the bees aren’t bother by (for instance) being fed, which seem to be a major point of contention for these people.

And I honestly adore bees. They are complex and fascinating creatures. Still open to scientific evidence.

Doesn’t this just show that Pythagorean Crank might as well call himself vegan again?

I’ve done a similar vox pop for The Vegan Option with the question “What’s the least vegan thing you’ve done recently.” It revealed one (self-declared) vegans would strictly avoid “may contain traces of” and another would accept tea accidentally made with cow milk.

When Kerry McCarthy MP talked about veganism in the UK Parliament, she said “I think that it is a personal choice how far people want to take it, and some vegans are much stricter than others, which is fine.”.

You mean because I’m dragging vegans out of the closet with me and that’s making me relatively vegan still?! I think it means much more than the things you don’t eat right? What about the wheat grass shots, organic foods and green smoothies? I don’t do any of that shit. What do I gotta do to get away from you folks?

Is this Kerry McCarthy on the board of the Vegan Society? I hear they are keepers of the vegan standards for which all vegans must abide.

@TaVe, I make an exception for medicine (prescribed) for my eczema, too. I haven’t even checked it. Also, the only zit cream that ever worked for me is made by a company that is owned in the US by L’Oreal (which tests on animals), but I will use it anyway because it’s a miracle… just nothing else L’Oreal makes… heh.

Most of the above examples apply to me. But my biggest source of “non-veganness” is that I eat NVFF (non-vegan freegan food). If it woudl otherwise go to waste, I am all over it, and I enjoy it. Any chance I get. Egg dripping down my chin. Cheese stuck in my whiskers.

I have no ethical issue with NVFF, but somehow I feel like it might send me into some downward spiral back to me cheesavore ways. Totally irrational, most likely. But my spouse does taunt me with “well, I was just going to throw these cheese curds away”…

What can I say, Dave. You saw–with your very own eyes–that I ordered and drank a Bloody Mary without first checking on its vegan-ness. Clearly you’re a bad influence on me.

I do tend to be pretty casual with my alcoholic beverages. And no, I don’t make people clean the grill between their hamburger and my veggie burger. (I’m just so happy that they thought to have a veggie burger for me!)

– I eat honey, confectioner’s glaze, and probably some carmine.
– I get the “vegetarian turkey” at a local sandwich shop without asking if it was vegan.
– I buy mainstream personal care and cleaning products without always verifying that they don’t contain animal products and are not tested on animals

Probably my worst non-vegan offenses is using snap traps for a mouse infestation. We tried the live traps for a long time, but after watching a hawk snatch up one of the mice I just released, I decided it is likely more humane to kill them instantaneously.

LENTIL! Oh I miss you! I didn’t even know you checked this blog here. <3

I've had vegan friends with mice who became pretty rabid about killing them after trying every nice way first. I guess I don't blame either party but your hawk story is hilarious! I mean, it's kinda sad cuz NATURE REALLY FUCKING SUCKS I HATE IT but yeah, it's a complicated world.

I do have to say it sucks every time I find one of the little guys. Admittedly, it sucks worse for them. I was also put off the live traps when I read that deer mice carry hantavirus, which is spread by their droppings. Deer mice are the main ones we have here. They poop so much in the live traps (they tend to poop more when they are frightened/anxious). While there haven’t been many cases of hantavirus in the Midwest, it’s still not something I’m inclined to mess around with.

When critters innocently invade my living space admittedly my highfalutin animal rights philosophy gets challenged but I don’t see the conflict with big picture so much. Hantavirus is a good reason to heighten that sense of alarm eh?

This is an awesome post–thank you! I really hate the vegan police/vegan trolls. They make me not not want to post or join conversations (in other places) because they usually very limited or just boring. Or worse yet–mean and judgmental.

I think of myself as a “big ticket” vegan–no meat, fish, eggs, cheese, etc; but I don’t freak out on hidden ingredients. I drink whatever wine or beer I want, I buy mostly mainstream personal care products — like Lentil above– though that is something I’ll eventually get around to switching out. I eat the vegan hotdogs at AT&T Stadium (San Francisco) and not care about what the bun is made out of. I have some leather in my car. And oh yeah, my sweet scardy-cat pibble has a big-ass leather collar on. Plus I don’t have any vegan friends, so I don’t really care what other say.

And yeah–bees rule! Once in a while I like buy local honey from small producers. If had a bigger place I’d consider having a hive, but with three dogs and a small yard, that isn’t possible yet. HONEY! Oh yeah, I said it.

You’re welcome Antionette! I do think vegans get so wrapped up in what is or is not vegan that any philosophical concerns get lost and loses traction for change. “Big ticket” vegan would be a good way to describe it. While one could do the utilitarian math on the smaller ingredients I don’t think that makes much of a difference and again loses the point. Not having vegan friends is probably be a plus so maybe consider yourself lucky? :p

1. My partner isn’t vegan.
2. My cats and dogs are also not vegan.
3. I take meds and don’t worry about the ingredients or testing and not because of an illness that will kill me quickly if I don’t.
4. I still wear my old wool sweaters
5. I eat foods with sugar that may or may not be bone char processed.

Other than that my OCD personality traits (and I mean that literally) don’t allow me to eat products with animal ingredients listed. I just can’t do it, not because I’m so vegan but because it causes me anxiety and panic. Since I have been called a “bad” vegan for these things I have thought a lot about how other people have different lines they won’t or will cross. If I am judgmental of them then that makes me into the type of vegan I dislike- those who police and criticize. So I have been trying to not get all NOT VEGAN on people about borderline issues.

Went to the movies last night and thought of another Nonvegan vegan: I don’t ask if the movie popcorn has butter flavoring. Which is ridiculous, because 99 times out a 100 it does. But what’s a movie without popcorn.

The Crisco butter flavor spray was vegan last I checked. Not sure about Pam, but it may be. The popcorn stuff is usually coconut oil based – at least the kind I was looking at as I am somewhat more strict with my anti-palm oil stance than I am about small amounts of animal products.

Yeah, what Lentil said. Movie popcorn is vegan by default aint that great?! Hurray for cheap food and science! 😉 The local art theater though will make their popcorn with real butter to placate the hipster foodies. Good one though.

Unless things have changed since I worked at a theater, movie theater “butter” is loaded with partially hydrogenated oils i.e. trans fat. If this is still the case, that’s a very good reason to avoid it, vegan or not.

In non-vegan vegan news, I’ve decided I’m still going to eat the salad with dressing at Olive Garden today, though I just discovered it contains egg… I’m disappointed to learn this but perhaps I can look at today’s lunch date as a sayonara to this since-childhood favorite… boo.

Given the amount of dressing you use, and the fact that up until now the miniscule amount of egg has been undetectable to you, I’d say you probably consume the equivalent of one egg per every 15-20 visits. If you really enjoy it, it’s really not a big deal.

I recently heard the best thing on the planet:
The water-sealing wax ring underneath toilets (which, you can guess, keeps the water in the pipes and not on your baseboards) is made of beeswax. So “true vegans” can’t use any toilets anymore. LMFAO! XD

Ointment with TWO animals in it? You fucking animal exploiter! 😉 Can’t you use biodynamic wheatgrass kelp extract powder or some hippie shit. Pretty soon somebody will be by to tell you what vegan thing you should do instead, watch.

I heard tattoo ink isn’t vegan or some shit yeah….it’s all so boring to me… but you are literally tattooed NOT VEGAN, sucker. 😀

Veg*n Sinner: “Forgive me veganism, for I have sinned. I had chips with some *^#)% somewhere on the ingredients list. What shall be my penance?”
Veganism: “You shall watch Earthlings again.” (or for meat-based transgressions: “You shall spend ten minutes in a sow stall.”)

That way the penitent can have their guilty pleasure, repent, and go back to calling themselves “vegan” again the next day. Good idea?
(perhaps I’m not the first to come up with it, but it’s new to me!)

After I posted I found that confession thread and was shocked and horrified! I also found that you had already suggested penance. “Give out 20 Why Vegans and watch one Meet Your Meat” made me LMAO (and I don’t use internet abbreviations lightly).

I agree with their goals, but the self-torture they go through does not further those goals! I told my wife today about the line from your post above about the rabbit hole. So freaking true.

Our anti-natalist friends razz us because we are having a second baby, so I told them that I was going to do baby-offsets. So my question is, how may people do I have to make vegan to balance out the environmental damage of each child?