Z-Bo and Marc Gasol. Grizzlies seem to be doing fine, as are the Clippers with Jordan and Griffin.

Not comparing our talent with theirs, but I prefer two bigs in the paint. Having Pietrus now helps with a three point threat.

Not trying to defend Bargs, but the concept of no value from having a big that shoots from outside? How many championships have either of those teams won lately, or finals reached? The last 6 championships have been won by teams using a big to shoot a significant amount from beyond 16 ft, translating to him being out there a lot. Again, not trying to defend Bargs and his performance, but the concept of having a big that's a threat from outside leads to significant success in today's NBA.

The space Bargs create is overrated IMO. Both Jonas and Amir have a decent mid-range, so there's no need for the deep bomber Bargs, and he hasn't even been shooting it well recently (.327 over the last three seasons). For all the 'spacing' he provides for us on the offensive end, he gives back to the other team on the defensive end by not providing any help defense.

Isn't the big picture here suppose to be "Why did we lose and how can we fix it?" Not trying to give Barg credit for someone else putting up points. For shit sake, he is making $10 mil a year. He is suppose to be able to make others around him good. And he is suppose to pick up the slack.

Defensively we've seen Calderon playing starters minutes, Bargnani & DeRozan playing heavy starters minutes and Valanciunas playing part time (but with the starters to start the game). That's 2 horrible defenders (Calderon & DeRozan), 1 horrible help defender (Bargnani) and 1 undersized rookie (Valanciunas) being counted on to play consistently good defense. Plus, the starting unit has much less chemistry as a group, with the addition of Valanciunas and Lowry, which could explain the slow starts and huge points given up in the 1st quarter. To me, it's little surprise that the defense has regressed thus far this season.

Offensively, I hoped the added focus by the coaching staff, the addition of Lowry, a consistent/healthy Bargnani and an improved DeRozan would have lead to a significant improvement. I've been incredibly disappointed. Bargnani has returned to old form, DeRozan still has no outside shot and can't finish at the rim (and gets no help from the refs), Lowry is looking like a more skilled version of Bayless, the C position is a revolving door (Valanciunas is a rookie, Amir has fallen too in love with his outside shot and Davis isn't getting enough playing time) and the SF position has been a black hole. The bottom line is that our top-3 offensive players (Lowry, DeRozan, Bargnani) are all incredibly inefficient shooters who are lucky to shoot 50% any given night, while taking over half of the team's shots. Who can blame them when the other two spots on the floor have seen extremely poor/inconsistent production?

Offensively, Bargnani, Lowry and DeRozan all need to tighten their game up and it would be nice to get something decent (I'd settle for consistency) out of the C & SF spots. However, the biggest chunk of the responsibility for both the offensive and defensive struggles ultimately fall on Casey.

ED was starting to suck wind after 10 minutes on the floor, as evidenced by 2 fouls in 36 seconds against rookie Robinson. In the 7 minutes after that switch was made, Lowry scored 11 of his 34 points. There are other things that didn't work (AB's shooting, Lowry's defense), but that part of the equation did, especially if you watched actual play, period.

Agreed the game looks different based on how people view certain players.

Isn't the big picture here suppose to be "Why did we lose and how can we fix it?" Not trying to give Barg credit for someone else putting up points. For shit sake, he is making $10 mil a year. He is suppose to be able to make others around him good. And he is suppose to pick up the slack.

Actually the subject of this thread wasn't the big picture, but opened with direct reference to Casey's concept of floor spacing and the use of Bargnani for that. The original post got a little convoluted, but if you follow the convo in the thread, it's focused on that, not the big picture.

Not trying to defend Bargs, but the concept of no value from having a big that shoots from outside? How many championships have either of those teams won lately, or finals reached? The last 6 championships have been won by teams using a big to shoot a significant amount from beyond 16 ft, translating to him being out there a lot. Again, not trying to defend Bargs and his performance, but the concept of having a big that's a threat from outside leads to significant success in today's NBA.

All of these teams had bigs that could shoot, but none of these bigs (Bosh, Nowitzki, Gasol, Garnett) were camped out at the 3 pt line jacking up 3's outside of Nowitzki who I am certain also took many fouls shots that year and has a super midrange game.

I am also fairly certain without having to check the stats that all of them averaged 6+ boards at least and were active defensively for their teams.

A big who shoots from the perimeter shooting under 40% or even his career avg of 44% and not making much other contributions to his team should not be compared to these players that actually helped their teams win a chip.

The space Bargs create is overrated IMO. Both Jonas and Amir have a decent mid-range, so there's no need for the deep bomber Bargs, and he hasn't even been shooting it well recently (.327 over the last three seasons). For all the 'spacing' he provides for us on the offensive end, he gives back to the other team on the defensive end by not providing any help defense.

Bargs would be better on the second unit.

The only space he has been creating lately has been the space and distance between wins (4) and losses (15) and that spacing looks like it might get bigger.

I can't believe 'spacing' is now an important part of Andrea's value! lol

Casey should apologize for suggesting Lowry only got off in Sacramento cause Andrea was giving him the room to manouevre.

Ask coach Hollins if Gasol and Randolph are not creating enough space for Gay and Conley? LOL

Right, because Memphis has two paint-loving bigs, we can get away with it too. Nevermind the fact that Randolph and Gasol are both at least three times as talented as any of our bigs (outside Barg, who isn't in the game in this discussion), and the fact that we have a point guard who absolutely relies on getting into the paint.

Isn't the big picture here suppose to be "Why did we lose and how can we fix it?" Not trying to give Barg credit for someone else putting up points. For shit sake, he is making $10 mil a year. He is suppose to be able to make others around him good. And he is suppose to pick up the slack.

All of these teams had bigs that could shoot, but none of these bigs (Bosh, Nowitzki, Gasol, Garnett) were camped out at the 3 pt line jacking up 3's outside of Nowitzki who I am certain also took many fouls shots that year and has a super midrange game.

I am also fairly certain without having to check the stats that all of them averaged 6+ boards at least and were active defensively for their teams.

A big who shoots from the perimeter shooting under 40% or even his career avg of 44% and not making much other contributions to his team should not be compared to these players that actually helped their teams win a chip.

I'm not comparing Bargs to these players. My discussion is limited to responding to the concept that having two bigs working in the paint is no problem, and that having a big that draws another outside is of no great value. All of those players, as well as a combined 28 minutes by Horry/Bonner for the Spurs last ship of theirs, may not shoot lot from the 3 pt line, but shot a significant amount from beyond 16 ft, creating the same spacing affect. Sadly, the current Raptors only have 1 big capable of drawing bigs out beyond 16 ft on a regular basis.

NOTE: To repeat, the discussion is about the value of having a big spreading the floor, not a discussion of whether Bargs other attributes, or lack thereof, justify his positioning on the floor, AS DEFINED BY THE COACHING STAFF, not his choosing to play out there against the team's wishes, as some try and spout all the time.

Our offense is so frustrating to watch, even last year. It's too methodical and slow, usually involving just 2 men in a pick and roll, or the obvious down screen for Derozan. There's no ball movement at all. It's like watching Mike Brown's offense in L.A. except we don't have the talent.

Houston was pretty good last year and I would argue that on paper, our talent level matches theirs. You can say what you want about McHale's personality, but his offense is pretty solid. Even watching them now, it's similar to how they played last year. A lot of ball movement, side top side -- pick and roll on one side, then swing it to get the defense shifting.

We don't have this type of movement. We don't have the talent level nor the experience to be methodical on offense and end up playing one on one anyway. Compound that with our defense, this year has been so frustrating to watch.

That, right there, falls on Dwane Casey.

I don't even know why I keep watching. I guess that's just the curse of being a fan. One thing I know is, it's easier for me to turn that channel when things get embarrassing.

“I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

Our offense is so frustrating to watch, even last year. It's too methodical and slow, usually involving just 2 men in a pick and roll, or the obvious down screen for Derozan. There's no ball movement at all. It's like watching Mike Brown's offense in L.A. except we don't have the talent.

Houston was pretty good last year and I would argue that on paper, our talent level matches theirs. You can say what you want about McHale's personality, but his offense is pretty solid. Even watching them now, it's similar to how they played last year. A lot of ball movement, side top side -- pick and roll on one side, then swing it to get the defense shifting.

We don't have this type of movement. We don't have the talent level nor the experience to be methodical on offense and end up playing one on one anyway. Compound that with our defense, this year has been so frustrating to watch.

That, right there, falls on Dwane Casey.

I don't even know why I keep watching. I guess that's just the curse of being a fan. One thing I know is, it's easier for me to turn that channel when things get embarrassing.

First off Torch, I'm going to try and concentrate on responding to your post because you're Avatar is distracting. Second, the ball movement of this team is really bad, especially after watching the Denver game. If it's Lowry, it's shot happy. If it's Calderon, its dribbles. Sigh.

“The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King