An Immediate request of all Sam Harris.org members

There is a pattern of negativity that has consistently infected this forum. I’ve noticed some Freethinkers, Christians, or others are treated condescendingly, and are insulted and derided for being open minded to some of the types of things Sam Harris talks about in his book. It only leads to frustration and polarization for both people, which is not healthy. It also isn’t healthy to insult people, even if it is over the internet. The temporary relief it gives you only leads to more internal stress, and you start a pattern which is difficult to stop, it just leads to more negative behavior which can actually start to show up in how you act when you are not on the internet.

I myself have been guilty of engaging in some personal attack out of retribution for the insults directed towards me, but that is not an excuse, and I will try to avoid it in the future.

This is an Immediate request to all Sam Harris.org members to stop all unnecessary condescending comments, personal smears, or derogatory language directed towards any other members. You are free to disagree with people, but please do it in a civil, respectful manner.

While Sander and a number of others here have little tolerance for relative newbies climbing onto a soapbox. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and share with you that I attempted a similar peace-keeping “Hey, we’re all on the same side, let’s play nice” post early in my explorations here.

I got my ass shot off by numerous senior members.

Later it dawned on me why. This forum is full of independent thinkers. We’re not going to agree on everything and aren’t usually too shy about expressing it. A lot of us aren’t particularly fond of niceties either and will call things the way the way we see them without softening the commentary. A prick is a prick, an idiot an idiot and a fuckwit a fuckwit.

I hope you can take this to heart. If not, you may be on the wrong forum - we don’t always play nice. So wear a cup when you visit, be prepared to vociferously defend your positions, admit when you’re wrong, learn something from it and join the fray with glee and a sense of humor.

Jeez - now who’s soapboxing?

He who is not a misanthrope at forty can never have loved mankind -Chamfort

Why do you feel it necessary to respond to a polite request with such a rude response?

mpbrockman - 12 November 2008 02:17 AM

A lot of us aren’t particularly fond of niceties either and will call things the way the way we see them without softening the commentary. A prick is a prick, an idiot an idiot and a fuckwit a fuckwit.

So by that measure, if Sam Harris himself came on here and voiced his opinions about mysticism, spirituality, death, and consciousness, which many of you obviously have strong disagreements with, it would be justifiable to treat him with disrespect, and call him those types of names?

A lot of us aren’t particularly fond of niceties either and will call things the way the way we see them without softening the commentary. A prick is a prick, an idiot an idiot and a fuckwit a fuckwit.

immediate supression - 12 November 2008 02:17 AM

So by that measure, if Sam Harris himself came on here and voiced his opinions about mysticism, spirituality, death, and consciousness, which many of you obviously have strong disagreements with, it would be justifiable to treat him with disrespect, and call him those types of names?

My word, yes. I’m going to stop trying to speak for the group here and speak just for myself. While Sam has written a few books and several articles that have had an big impact on me, I would not be in the least bit shy about challenging him on a few points. There’s no such thing as a stupid question and I would either have my position strengthened, be forced to re-evaluate or at the very least, have some new information to integrate. Sam’s just a guy, not an infallible oracle (a well educated, insightful and thoughtful guy, but a guy nonetheless). I’d treat him the same as I would treat anyone on the forum. That includes calling him a fuckwit if the situation called for it.

This is a forum that often deals with emotionally charged issues. To ask that everyone run their posts through a “politeness/respect filter” is unrealistic. There will be anger and flares of temper and as well as sharing, empathy, sympathy and genuine attempts to explore various relevant issues.

If the words I used above bother you that much - your issue appears to be with semantics and not with the subject matter. That seems to me to be rather shallow as it appears you’re judging posts by their level of linguistic aggression rather than content.

If you feel strongly about raising the raising the level of civility on this forum. I would suggest keeping your posts as civil as possible and ignoring the posts you find inflammatory. Leading by example - just a thought.

He who is not a misanthrope at forty can never have loved mankind -Chamfort

[If you feel strongly about raising the raising the level of civility on this forum. I would suggest keeping your posts as civil as possible and ignoring the posts you find inflammatory. Leading by example - just a thought.

Nicely put MPB,

To clarify: people learn to lie, mask their true thoughts and ‘beat around the bush’ from a very early age and not saying what you really think has been necessary for most people throughout our long and strange history, either just to stay alive or to not become a social outcast.
There are good reasons for not calling a guy in the seat next to you on the bus a fuckwit.

Even on the Internet unmoderated forums are rare.

To me, it is a wonderful thing to be able to say anything I want and in the way I want it.
Even this forum, full of all that nasty talk, is self-regulating.
If one only hurls insults and has nothing substantial to say, one’s life-span on the SH forum is usually short.

I don’t like it one bit when people like Immediate ‘suggest’ that we be more courteous.
Smells like passive aggression to me.
What ever happened to “to each his own”?
Some posters like Jefe are always level-headed and always interesting to read.
Some are vicious bastards (you know who you are) and are equally interesting.
Some are dull beyond belief whilst upholding all the contemporary etiquettes.

For the tender souls who don’t like insults I’d like to remind them that we are just a bunch of apes with fine Italian shoes typing away on keyboards.
If this harsh realm is not your cup of tea then there are many other places where you can sing “reach out and touch somebody’s hand” until the cows come home.

“You know I’m born to lose, and gambling is for fools.
But that’s the way I like it baby, I don’t want to live forever.”

From the autobiography of A.A.Mills, ‘The passage of time, according to an estranged, casual tyrant.’

I don’t like it one bit when people like Immediate ‘suggest’ that we be more courteous.
Smells like passive aggression to me.
What ever happened to “to each his own”?

They don’t bother me at all ... no more than the pure vitriol without substance stuff.

I’m an equal opportunity post ignorer.

I’m not sure why someone would expect or even want others to take that responsibility on their behalf. It seems a rather easy thing to not read a post you don’t want to read rather than to choose to read it and become offended.

But then I’ve cared very little what most people think since I was in high school (until delusional, narcissistic fuckwads turn out to vote en masse, anyway), and I gather that’s a bit unusual ... though probably not as much so among atheist and agnostic types.

Byron

“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

You are free to disagree with people, but please do it in a civil, respectful manner.

Explain why should anyone be respectful when their intelligence is being insulted? Sam Harris said, in effect, that we should not tolerate idiots and their ideas and that this a major part of the world’s problem. I seem to remember his description of Sarah Palin as a “rapture ready idiot” as very respectful and civil.

Oh yes, let us be most respectful of the stoning to death of women who look at a man and therefore bring dishonour on their family. Female circumcision anyone?

A lot of us aren’t particularly fond of niceties either and will call things the way the way we see them without softening the commentary. A prick is a prick, an idiot an idiot and a fuckwit a fuckwit.

immediate supression - 12 November 2008 02:17 AM

So by that measure, if Sam Harris himself came on here and voiced his opinions about mysticism, spirituality, death, and consciousness, which many of you obviously have strong disagreements with, it would be justifiable to treat him with disrespect, and call him those types of names?

My word, yes. I’m going to stop trying to speak for the group here and speak just for myself. While Sam has written a few books and several articles that have had an big impact on me, I would not be in the least bit shy about challenging him on a few points. There’s no such thing as a stupid question and I would either have my position strengthened, be forced to re-evaluate or at the very least, have some new information to integrate. Sam’s just a guy, not an infallible oracle (a well educated, insightful and thoughtful guy, but a guy nonetheless). I’d treat him the same as I would treat anyone on the forum. That includes calling him a fuckwit if the situation called for it.

Do you believe it is a good idea to teach children to resort to name-calling when there are disagreements?

I mean, if it is a perfectly reasonable and responsible thing to do, we should teach our children to respond in this way also, correct?

Is this what your parents taught you, in terms of how to communicate effectively with other people? If not, what do you think they would think of your approach?

And do you think behaving in this rude manner makes a difference in changing people’s minds about things, or does it just alienate them? If it just alienates them, what is the value in acting this way?

What is the criteria for using this type of language when disagreements arise? Do you resort to it as soon as possible when there is a disagreement, or do you wait to see if you’ve changed the other person’s mind, and when you haven’t, then you resort to this language?

Do you use this language with co-workers and relatives when there are disagreements and you don’t get your way? I mean if Sam said it about Sarah Palin in an inflammatory article, that makes it OK all the time, right?

Does the value in acting this way and using this type of language come from the temporary relief it gives you over the frustration that comes when you realize you are not able to change someone’s opinion about the issue you are discussing?

Are you really going down this childhood path crap? Perhaps we must, as obviously your parents forgot to teach you that there is a time and place for everything. Being “nice” on a contentious adult forum may have it’s place and time, but as a universal request for application it is infantile.

A) I’ve been far more accommodating that I might have normally been given that you’re new - and I always make an effort to be welcoming.
B) You’re obviously hung up on imposing your definitions of polite/impolite language upon the rest of us.
C) I was not aware there were any children frequenting this forum (on the slim chance that there are - kids, don’t try this at home)
D) A quick review of your previous posts shows you accusing other members of spouting “bullshit”, accusing them of having “narrow-minded, knee-jerk perspectives” and exhorting them to “get a life”. While falling short of dropping an f-bomb, I doubt this sort of language would win you a lot of friends around the office.
E) Actually, I teach my daughter to ignore self-righteous pontificating types whenever possible. Since this is certainly the case here - I will now be taking my own advice.

Good luck with your forum altering crusade.

He who is not a misanthrope at forty can never have loved mankind -Chamfort