... because the latest trend of making the runout climbs safe-ish is out of character with that particular part of Buffalo.

On 14/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote (in response to a Miguel75 post):>I assume you haven't climbed Profanities? Despite all these posts no>one yet has gone out climbed the climbs and reported back with facts. If>this was retro-ed by someone in the club I doubt there would be the outrage.>
Maybe read JMK's recent posts for some facts?

>While you're there, is the bolting of Profanities (a climb nobody climbs)>inline with say the bolting of Big Fun (a climb everyone does)?>>And my 2 cents on the Pintle LHV, only climbed it once (before the bolt)>had read/heard it was run out but found it fine. But again no one has bothered>to go up there and place the gear and report back with facts.>
What facts are you looking for? A number of people (including myself), clearly stated in earlier posts on this thread that they have done Pintle LHV since the bolt. I extensively elaborated about the broken off flake adjacent (now below) that bolt, and the effect it (and the bolt), had on the climb for me...

>This thread does nothing to encourage bolters to come forward and justify>there actions or discuss their future intentions.

What makes you think they were ever going to do that(?), given they retro'd without informing/justifying/discussing beforehand.
On the contrary I would suggest that if they become aware of this thread, they may amend their actions in future (hopefully in a positive way), in the light of passionate responses it has brought out, as it is much easier to remain anonymous than deal with confrontational issues face to face.

On 14/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>For starters Buffalo clearly isn't a trad crag! There are a LOT of bolts>on all sorts of routes - from safeish climbs at Dreamworld to runout slabs>on the Horn etc. None of these bolts required "consultation with the community">before being placed. Why start now?

Buffalo also very clearly isn't a sport crag, so where do you get the idea that it's ok to sport bolt/retrobolt all those routes?

The reason to start now? Simple. Bolters have crossed a line recently which is unacceptable to a large enough proportion of the community. A concerted resistance to the gridbolting agenda is now viable. You're trying to portray gridding as "the direction that the general climbing population is moving in", when it's actually just driven by a couple of dozen guys who have a.d.d. and a drill.

Any notion of a taboo against chopping f.a. bolts is necessarily tied to the idea that f.a.'s must respect the existing style of the crag. Bolters taking the most extreme example from that crag and trying to use it as justification for gridding is pathetic and obviously won't be respected.

On 14/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>snip>>Maybe readJMK's recent posts for some facts?

JMK does not talk about the safety factor, whether the bolts prevent a ground fall what the quality of the pro above and below is like. I think he was in favour of the leaving the bolts in, no?

>What facts are you looking for? A number of people (including myself),>clearly stated in earlier posts on this thread that they have done Pintle>LHV since the bolt. I extensively elaborated about the broken off flake>adjacent (now below) that bolt, and the effect it (and the bolt), had on>the climb for me...>

The effect of the bolt on the climb for you is not a fact it is your opinion. Have you bothered to go and do the Pintle LHV again so that you can check whether your rhetoric matches reality?

>What makes you think they were ever going to do that(?), given they retro'd without >informing/justifying/discussing beforehand.>On the contrary I would suggest that if they become aware of this thread, they may >amend their actions in future (hopefully in a positive way), in the light of passionate >responses it has brought out, as it is much easier to remain anonymous than deal with> confrontational issues face to face.

For all the posturing that goes on about chopping on this board how many bolts actually get chopped, yeah I didn't think so.

And, well done on making the bolt choppers thread. Great way to communicate in a positive way. There is a difference between passion and fundamentalism.

Now I am not anti-bolt, having placed enough myself over the years. Nor am I against easy sport routes. My issue is when areas with solid rock and good gear placement options have easy sport areas added just because someone wants to climb easy sport!

My concern is all this talk about rights for people to have a style of climbing they prefer at every crag. If a crag lends itself to traditional gear or the ethics is a predominantly trad area, why must there be easy bolted sport routes?

If there is a style / type of climbing that you like, travel to where that is! I love steep limestone tufa routes. None around here – so do I quarry and concrete Werribee gorge and create tufa routes or do I book a holiday to France?

On 14/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:>JMK does not talk about the safety factor, whether the bolts prevent a>ground fall what the quality of the pro above and below is like. I think>he was in favour of the leaving the bolts in, no?>
The way I read* JMK's posts was that he enjoyed Profanities, and felt that maybe only one bolt wasn't necessary to clip in his opinion.

This climb was originally protected by a rope dropped down the line with knotted loops to clip, and the sentiment I decipher from those who have contributed to the thread, is that bolting it is probably OK. I also happen to agree with that sentiment, as long as the bolting style is done in keeping with established precedent for that location regarding number and spacing of same.

He also apparently enjoyed Pintle LHV and was ambivalent about it's bolt?

(* I am not trying to put words in his mouth, and maybe if I went back and re-read his posts again I might find myself wrong, but that is the gist I came away with. I am sure he will correct me if I have misrepresented him ☺).

rolsen1, you raise the safety factor issue.
Pintle has been led since inception without the bolt, as others have pointed out ...
~> And at risk of this thread degenerating, I know from your contribution to other similar threads, that you are aware of the whole 'not every route has to be safe' line of thought presented often by others, mostly in the face of the pro-sanitise arguments put forward to justify actions by others intent on dumbing down climbs to their level of competence, or perception of what bumblies 'need'.

You raise the quality issue. On Profanities there are no other pro options between the bolts.
By the way, I strongly suspect JMK is not into having groundfalls, so I tend to trust his assessment that for him the bolting has been done sensibly on that route.

>>>What facts are you looking for? A number of people (including myself),>>clearly stated in earlier posts on this thread that they have done Pintle>>LHV since the bolt. I extensively elaborated about the broken off flake>>adjacent (now below) that bolt, and the effect it (and the bolt), had>on>>the climb for me...>>>>The effect of the bolt on the climb for you is not a fact it is your opinion.> Have you bothered to go and do the Pintle LHV again so that you can check>whether your rhetoric matches reality?

?
I did that route two weeks ago.
Again; Pintle has been led since inception without the bolt, as others have pointed out ...
To my mind the fact of it standing the test of time as it was, is fact enough for me.

Again; what facts are you looking for as I am unclear what you are seeking here, i.e. that which match your reality?
Are you suggesting I take a tape measure with me next time, and forward a report to Chockstone; ... and if it is 3 cm this way or that, will it change your opinion?

Speaking of opinion...
I have vague memory bells ringing that you are/were once a 'local' (lived in The Beechworth-Wodonga area??), for climbing at Mt Buffalo...
The way you write, indicates to me that you are in favour of how this bolting has been done at The Horn.
If this (being in favour of that bolting), is not the case then please clearly say it.

>>>What makes you think they were ever going to do that(?), given they retro'd>without >informing/justifying/discussing beforehand.>>On the contrary I would suggest that if they become aware of this thread,>they may >>amend their actions in future (hopefully in a positive way), in the light>of passionate >>responses it has brought out, as it is much easier to remain anonymous>than deal with>> confrontational issues face to face.>>For all the posturing that goes on about chopping on this board how many>bolts actually get chopped, yeah I didn't think so.

Give it time. The discussion phase has not ended yet, as the issue has only just come to general community knowledge status.

>>And, well done on making the bolt choppers thread. Great way to communicate>in a positive way. There is a difference between passion and fundamentalism.

You fail to see the humour in the title I chose for that/those experiments.
My intention was to also highlight the availability of that new function within Chocky, and I doubt many people would have read the post/s if it was titled, Let's all go to Werribee again!
;-)

On 14/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:>>For all the posturing that goes on about chopping on this board how many>bolts actually get chopped, yeah I didn't think so.

Hi Rolsen, I chop bolts. Lots of people would like to see some bolts removed but don't do so owing to a fear of conflict and confrontation. I kinda like conflict and confrontation. As long as there's a decent percentage of people who want bolts out, it only takes a couple of efficient debolters (shoutout to my homie Tegan) to turn beliefs into extremely effective actions.

On 14/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>>This climb was originally protected by a rope dropped down the line with>knotted loops to clip, and the sentiment I decipher from those who have>contributed to the thread, is that bolting it is probably OK. I also happen>to agree with that sentiment, as long as the bolting style is done in keeping>with established precedent for that location regarding number and spacing>of same.

I think this is a sensible way to look at things.

I understand a lot of people object to the lack of “informing/justifying/discussing” that occurred when these bolts were placed.

I just hope that the same ethics, consultation and consideration of the routes themselves, will be applied to deciding which of the contentious new bolts should stay/go and that they are not just chopped to ‘teach the bolter a lesson’.

I have seconded a few of these climbs and at least some of the bolts are on otherwise unprotectable slabs. I don’t know enough to comment on whether or not they are over bolted, but I hope they remain in a state that people can still enjoy these climbs like I was lucky enough to.

On 14/02/2013 mouse wrote:> but I hope they remain in a state that people>can still enjoy these climbs like I was lucky enough to.>
What's the matter mouse, you too poor to be able to afford a toprope? You said you were seconding anyway......wtf?

On 14/02/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>Hi Rolsen, I chop bolts. Lots of people would like to see some bolts removed>but don't do so owing to a fear of conflict and confrontation. I kinda>like conflict and confrontation. As long as there's a decent percentage>of people who want bolts out, it only takes a couple of efficient debolters>(shoutout to my homie Tegan) to turn beliefs into extremely effective actions.

Out of interest, apart from bashing at a few bolts at Point Perp with a hammer (and not removing them) did you ever get back and do a proper job of bolt removal there? There was a lot of talk from you about going and removing them but I haven't heard anything since.

On 14/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>>You fail to see the humour in the title I chose for that/those experiments.>My intention was to also highlight the availability of that new function>within Chocky, and I doubt many people would have read the post/s if it>was titled, Let's all go to Werribee again!>;-)

Having done these routes at chrissie I would recommend others do them too.

I don't like ground or ledge falls as it took me a year to walk again after one so I am all in Cavour of gear that prevents this.

I did not clip the 3rd or 4 th bolt on profanities as I only saw it when it was below my right foot. It was on easy ground at that point so I ignored it but if you fell clipping the next you would come close to the deck. The rest of the route is just pleasant - u could put some trad into the flake but might rip the flake in a fall.

The 18 next to it ( bad with names as I have no guidebook) has a mix of carrots and trad. Pulling the carrots , particularly after the 1st overlap could have bad ledge fall potential. For those who led it without extra bolts - well done. In current format just a really nice thin face that it well protected but feels a bit sketchy.

The wide crack with the 3 or 4 bolts on it. You can do without the carrots but honestly I reckon it is nicer with having done it both ways. This from a person who loves placing gear.

Lhv - I can see the attraction of the bolt. Will the gear hold- only 1 way to find out. Falling on gear is always a question mark. I have placed the stuff for 20 years and u still don't know - u believe it will be good but can not be sure. I have had what I thought were great cams pull and shit cams hold. A mate fell on a omega pacific gold once - it pulled out but a lobe caught on a plate of rock lower down and saved him from a broken body for sure. A good wire is hard to beat. Those on lhv are not what I would say are bombproof wires . So I leave it to someone else to make the call.

The poxy boulder at the bottom with 3 bolts - who cares.

Ps I did have issues getting bolt plates on which added extra challenge.

On 14/02/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>On 14/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:>>>>For all the posturing that goes on about chopping on this board how many>>bolts actually get chopped, yeah I didn't think so. >>Hi Rolsen, I chop bolts. Lots of people would like to see some bolts removed>but don't do so owing to a fear of conflict and confrontation. I kinda>like conflict and confrontation. As long as there's a decent percentage>of people who want bolts out, it only takes a couple of efficient debolters>(shoutout to my homie Tegan) to turn beliefs into extremely effective actions.

Exactly how many bolts have you said you were going to chop vs how many you have actually chopped?

On 14/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>Again; what facts are you looking for as I am unclear what you are seeking>here, i.e. that which match your reality?>Are you suggesting I take a tape measure with me next time, and forward>a report to Chockstone; ... and if it is 3 cm this way or that, will it>change your opinion?>

Just general information that no one has supplied so far that would be normally assessed before placing any bolt in any climb. What is climbing like after the bolt, does it ease off? How far would a climber fall? How much easier than the crux start? Where and what is the gear like before the bolt? Does the flake still take wires? How good are they? And the (obviously subjective) what were the wires like before the flake broke?

>Speaking of opinion...>I have vague memory bells ringing that you are/were once a 'local' (lived>in The Beechworth-Wodonga area??), for climbing at Mt Buffalo...

No.

>The way you write, indicates to me that you are in favour of how this>bolting has been done at The Horn.>If this (being in favour of that bolting), is not the case then please>clearly say it.

I've only climbed the Pintel LHV once quite a few years ago. I've already stated that I found the climb less run out than I expected although I'm comfortable on slabs so that might explain it. I also know conditions effect slabbing greatly. If memory serves me right the climb really eases off after the start and therefore I'm "guessing" the bolt probably isn't needed. However I don't know and therefore I'm keeping an open mind.

Oh, and the buffalo update just posted shows that some/all of other bolts have been there for close to 5 years!

>>>>>And, well done on making the bolt choppers thread. Great way to communicate>>in a positive way. There is a difference between passion and fundamentalism.>>You fail to see the humour in the title I chose for that/those experiments.>My intention was to also highlight the availability of that new function>within Chocky, and I doubt many people would have read the post/s if it>was titled, Let's all go to Werribee again!>;-)

Yeah right, just like the Safe Cliffs thread that was started by another fundamentalist.

Funny story. Peter Watling tried the Pintle LHV years before we did it. He had looked at it (probably from the side,not from abseil, they weren't into abseil inspections then). and realised that the top part of the flake was detached. His plan was to get some extra long bolts and drill right through the flake into the base rock and bolt the flake to the cliff. How he was proposing to do this amount of hand-drilling while on lead is beyond me. Anyhow he didn't make it up to that point so we'll never know how his idea would have worked. I suspect very badly.

From memory he started up the LHV but "wasn't wearing the right boots" and couldn't get up the LHV so he leaned as far right as possible, whacked in a bolt and then swung into the crack above the belay in an ett.

On 15/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:>Just general information that no one has supplied so far that would be normally assessed before placing any bolt in any climb. What is climbing like after the bolt, does it ease off? How far would a climber fall? How much easier than the crux start? Where and what is the gear like before the bolt? >Does the flake still take wires? How good are they? And the (obviously subjective) what were the wires like before the flake broke?

You have done the route (like most contributors on this thread so far), yet you still ask?

>I've only climbed the Pintel LHV once quite a few years ago. I've already stated that I found the climb less run out than I expected although I'm comfortable on slabs so that might explain it. I also know conditions effect slabbing greatly. If memory serves me right the climb really eases off after the start and therefore I'm "guessing" the bolt probably isn't needed. However I don't know and therefore I'm keeping an open mind.

~> It sounds like you need to go and do the route again as your memory could be worse than mine!
;-)

Re:>>And, well done on making the bolt choppers thread. Great way to communicate>>in a positive way. There is a difference between passion and fundamentalism.>>You fail to see the humour in the title I chose for that/those experiments.>My intention was to also highlight the availability of that new function>within Chocky, and I doubt many people would have read the post/s if it>was titled, Let's all go to Werribee again!>;-)

>Yeah right, just like the Safe Cliffs thread that was started by another fundamentalist.

Believe what you like, but it seems to me that you are not keeping an open mind as you professed earlier...

You also make that sound like a dirty word, but in the Chocky threads lately context, not to mention the aging climber process(!), I will take that as a compliment and am proud to be in such company.

Would you like to share camaraderie of the rope, and climb the routes in question in trad-minimalist bolting style for the grades they have been given*, at The Horn with us some time?

(*From what I have heard, that is likely how we will find them by the time we get our act together ;-) ... ).

On 5/2/2013 kieranl wrote:>I have a vague feeling that someone mentioned putting a bolt on the Pintle LHV some time ago to me. Probably not a bad thing at the top of that flake, if something goes wrong you're going for a very long way. >I remember having a wobbler on the top flake during the FA. Fought my way up to the semi-detached section, having to clean lichen off every hold then got scared and lowered off for Kevin to finish it. Total bummer.

&

On 6/2/2013 kieranl wrote:>While in isolation I'm not too fussed at the Pintle bolt, taken as a whole it looks to be pretty out-of-hand.

As one of the first ascentionists of that line, what do you think one of your climbing partners at the time, Kevin L would think of that addition?
From what I know of him and his routes, I strongly suspect that he would not approve of it, but I am curious to know if he has mellowed significantly about such things in latter years.

>did you ever get back and do a proper>job of bolt removal there? There was a lot of talk from you about going>and removing them but I haven't heard anything since.

I did it in the middle of the night (fuch, I'm turning into you or Mikl), got my time down to 5mins/bolt pulled and patched (didn't have to do a second lap, I was getting the bolt out before the glue set in the nozzle). The top couple were cut off and patched badly by the repentant retrobolter sometime prior to my night mission.........I might go back and fix his shit work at some stage.

I also got rid of those ridiculous rings on top of the cliff (you know, the ones which you said were a joke and should come out)