[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331696557' post='81620']
Teejay, I find this reasoning to be completely unsound. Do you know what books I read to learn the gospel of grace that released me from my bondage to a cult?
[/quote]

ME, with respect, I must ask you to be specific as to what reasoning is unsound. And your rebuttal as to why it is unsound would be helpful.

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331735721' post='81647']
In addition, the sermon on the mount was Christ fulfilling the law. He was showing that we are not under the law. The purpose was conviction. No one can never meet God's righteous standards. We need Him.

Romans chapters 9-11 are Paul quoting or referencing OT letters to show that God's plan was for Israel to reject their Messiah. It was not a surprise to Him.
[/quote]

ME, in Romans 9 and 10, Paul is laying the groundwork to break the bad new to Israel that God is cutting them off. Paul starts off Chapter 11 with "I say then, has God cast away His people?" And Paul explains that Israel will be grafted in again. Their casting away is not permanent. Jesus is coming back to Israel. And when He does, it will not be a gospel of grace but a gospel of circumcision. A circumcision of the flesh [not just of the heart] is a perpetual covenant for Israel FOREVER.

There are replacement theologians out there who falsely teach that we in the Body of Christ have replaced Isael. Nothing could be further from the truth. God made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, et.al. and promised them that they would have a kingdom with Jesus as King sitting on King David's throne ruling the world. The Twelve will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel. Jesus promised them this

Jesus plainly taught: "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Mat. 5:12). And if a Jew broke one of the least of the commandments and taught others to do so was considered least in the kingdom (Mat. 5:19). If you do not separate the circumcision writings from the uncircumcision writings, you will stay confused, and ME, this is what you do when you jump back and forth quoting writings to the circumcision and writings to the uncircumcision. You first have to ask, is this written to me?

John 3:16 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Do you all have a different definition of whosoever and believeth than I have?

John 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

John 4:10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

John 1:12; But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Matthew 11:28; “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."

Revelation 22:17; "Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life."
[/quote]

ME, a Jew, under the covenant of circumcision still had to circumcise, keep the Sabbath, feasts, forgive, visit the sick, visit prisoners, have faith, witness, take the plow and not look back, take up his cross and follow Jesus, love Jesus more than his mom, lay hands on the sick, baptize, be a profitable servant, step on snakes and drink poison with immunity, speak in tongues of other nations, prophesy, and on and on. And if he endured to the end and gave it his best, God would add grace and say, "well done, good and faithful servant." This is why a Christian could not be assured of his salvation under this gospel.

Under Paul's gospel, Paul forbid his followers to circumcise or keep Sabbaths.

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331735721' post='81647']
In addition, the sermon on the mount was Christ fulfilling the law. He was showing that we are not under the law. The purpose was conviction. No one can never meet God's righteous standards. We need Him.

Romans chapters 9-11 are Paul quoting or referencing OT letters to show that God's plan was for Israel to reject their Messiah. It was not a surprise to Him.
[/quote]

ME, an addendum to this post: Jesus put Himself under His own law when He got circumcised on the eighth day of His life. For a Jew, getting circumcised was not optional. Jesus not only kept Hos own law perfectly, He fulfilled the law. For example, let's look at the Seven Feasts of Israel. For thousands of years, Israel kep these feasts without knowing why. And unless you put Jesus in the picture, these feasts seem silly.

I think it was Bullinger who figured out using an eclypse of the sun mentioned in one of the gospels and the high priest schedule set up by Joshua, that Jesus was born on the Feast of Tabernacles. I believe John writes that Jesus "tented among us" in the flesh that is. When every Jew in Israel was buying their lamb to celebrate Passover, the high priest of Israel was buying Jesus from Judas. When every Jew in Israel was killing their Passover lamb to celebrate Passover, Jesus was being killed on the Cross. When every Jew in Israel was celebrating their Feast of Unleavened Bread, Jesus, the True Bread from Heaven, lay in the tomb and His body did not see corruption. (Unleavened bread has no yeast and does not spoil.) When everyof Jew in Israel was celebrating their Feast of First Fruits, Jesus rose from the dead. Then Israel went into the Feast of Weeks which culminated on the 50th day or Pentacost. On Pentacost, Jesus poured out His Holy Spirit.

So Jesus fulfilled five of these seven feasts with His own substance. Had Israel accepted their risen Messiah, the last two, the Feasts of Atonement and Trumpets would have been fulfilled also. But Jesus is coming back to Israel and He will fulfill them also.

John 3:16 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I know. All men throughout all of history have always been saved through the work of our risen saviour.

But the means by which we have been taught to express our faith in and acceptance of Christ has changed a few times. And it will change again in the future.

For example, when asked how one must be saved, Jesus answered, "Follow the commandments" as we would expect in answer to a people under the law. He could not very well have asked people to believe He had risen again for their redemption when He had not yet even died, could He?

When did the teaching change with respect to how we should express our faith and acceptance? It changed with Paul.

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331712380' post='81630'] This doesn't explain why God would get annoyed by a Jew saying "What the heck".. and so on... and not a gentile doing the same thing. If God wiped our slates clean at the cross, then why do the Jews have to mow the lawn while the gentles sit around watching and say what the heck? Why different standards from a God who "does not show favoritism"? That's true for a Jew under the Old Covenant. But not under the new: "By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." Heb 8:13 If, as you maintain, the Jews will be physically circumcising each other for billions and billions of years ... all the way throughout eternity, then what exactly is going to "soon disappear"? That does not change the level of truth in what he said: "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law" Does the audience make any difference as to whether or not this is true? Either Jews know that a man is not justified by observing the law, or they don't. [/quote]

UD,

Until you accept the FACT that circumcision, Sabbath keeping, feasts are perpetual covenants for Israel, you won't ever grasp this. And I think you keep forgetting that Israel was cut off. Their covenant of circumcision, getting a kingdom, etc. was also cut off. Until you accept this, you will not get it.

Paul writes in Romans 11:11: "But through their [Israel's] fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles" without those Gentiles having to mow the grass. Paul writes that God wanted to make Israel jealous. It did not work.

I now know how Paul felt when he told the Corinthians that he wanted to feed them some meat but he could not get them off of milk. It's worse today, we have become lactose intolerant. I would really like to explain to you exactly what the grace gospel is and how we should operate under it. But I am covering and recovering basic concepts that are either misunderstood or rejected. But I will be patient.

God doesn't always makes sense to us humans. God is not logical according to our minds. That is how men have started cults that teach against the Trinity.

Jehovah's Witnesses can pull verses out and disprove the immortal soul, the Trinity, hellfire and a great many other things that we know are true. And if you just try to reason with them based on those verses alone you will many times fail. This is exactly what is happening here. We can't follow the rules of sticking to those verses in the OP and talk you out of your reasoning. It won't happen.

My suggestion to you Fred, and anyone else questioning this is to read God's written word in context, chapters and books at a time, and also to rely on the Holy Spirit to teach you. Do not rely on your own wisdom, logic, etc. I would read Romans chapters 9-11 and Hebrews! I am reading Hebrews now and will share anything that jumps out at me.

Instead of reading the words of men including Teejay, read the words of God and let Him alone teach you.

ME, with respect, I must ask you to be specific as to what reasoning is unsound. And your rebuttal as to why it is unsound would be helpful.

TeeJay

You continually ignore scriptures and questions that show this reasoning as unsound. We have already done this and you are posting this to make it seem as if we have not.

Stripe, if you want to play silly games with silly questions then do so. If you want to debate this issue then there are a whole lot of things I have posted in response to both your and Teejay's arguments. Do you think I quote someone without challenging what they say? If you think that my response was a strawman or a missrepresentation of what you said or anything else along that line then please just spit it out so we can discuss it. I'm just like anyone else who is capable of being wrong and missunderstanding an argument. So if you don't like my response then just tell me why and hopefully we can straighten it out.

Until you accept the FACT that circumcision, Sabbath keeping, feasts are perpetual covenants for Israel, you won't ever grasp this. And I think you keep forgetting that Israel was cut off. Their covenant of circumcision, getting a kingdom, etc. was also cut off. Until you accept this, you will not get it.

Teejay, please spare me the condescending tone. I am well aware of the things that were ordained for the physical nation of Isreal, but I also know the difference between the shadow of the things to come and the realities found in Christ. It is the realities that are perpetual, not the shadows! Circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not the written code and the true Sabbath is eternal.

And how long do you intend on continuing with these endless strawmen. I challenge you now! Once and for all. Provide ONE single quote that indicates, either in this thread, the OSAS thread, or ANYWHERE else in this forum where I have even made the slightest indication that Israel, as a physical nation was not cut off.

I expect a response to this challenge!

Paul writes in Romans 11:11: "But through their [Israel's] fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles" without those Gentiles having to mow the grass. Paul writes that God wanted to make Israel jealous. It did not work.

This discussion is not about Israel! It is about multiple gospels. Was God trying to make the born-again Jews jealous? Was he trying to make Stephen jealous while he was being stoned? The fact that Israel was cut off is not evidence of a second gospel! And the "do your very best and God will do the rest" gospel cannot be found anywhere in scripture - neither in Pauline doctrine or any of the letters written by the other apostles!

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331744865' post='81659']
God doesn't always makes sense to us humans. God is not logical according to our minds. That is how men have started cults that teach against the Trinity.[/quote]

ME, "God is not logical according to our minds." May I ask where you got that? God is bound by the same laws of logic as we are. Jesus said He was the Truth. In order to reason truthfully, one must adhere to the laws of logic. If Jesus were illogical, He would be untruthful and would deny Himself. If He denied Himself concerning truth, sin would enter the Godhead and God would come undone.

[quote]Jehovah's Witnesses can pull verses out and disprove the immortal soul, the Trinity, hellfire and a great many other things that we know are true. And if you just try to reason with them based on those verses alone you will many times fail. This is exactly what is happening here. We can't follow the rules of sticking to those verses in the OP and talk you out of your reasoning. It won't happen.[/quote]

First you have to discern who you are and if God is writing to you or some other group. If you want to find out if OSAS is for you, today, you can't look to what God said to Moses. You are not a Jew, citizen of Israel, and are not under the law (unless you mistakenly place yourself under the law).

[quote]My suggestion to you Fred, and anyone else questioning this is to read God's written word in context, chapters and books at a time, and also to rely on the Holy Spirit to teach you. Do not rely on your own wisdom, logic, etc. I would read Romans chapters 9-11 and Hebrews! I am reading Hebrews now and will share anything that jumps out at me.[/quote]

You have to trust that the Author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit. The use of logic is not an option. Unless we reason logically, we can know nothing. What is it that Romans 9-11 reveal to you? Hebrews was written to Hebrews. Are you a Hebrew?

[quote]Instead of reading the words of men including Teejay, read the words of God and let Him alone teach you.[/quote]

Paul writes: "And God has appointed these in the church, first apostles, seond prophets, third teachers..." (1 Cor. 12:28). In order of importance, God placed teachers second only to apostles and prophets. Your instruction here is in direct opposition to God's word. What you wrote sounded so good! But it was your own opinion. You should have looked to God's word to see what He had to say. No?

[quote]You continually ignore scriptures and questions that show this reasoning as unsound. We have already done this and you are posting this to make it seem as if we have not.
[/quote]

Asserting that my reasoning is unsound is just that--an assertion. In logical debate, one is not allow to simply arbitrary assert something without any reasoned argument that shows why the assertion is true or false. An arbitrary assertion can be easily refuted with another arbitrary assertion. But in this type of dialogue, no truth can be reached.

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331754761' post='81663']
Teejay, please spare me the condescending tone. I am well aware of the things that were ordained for the physical nation of Isreal, but I also know the difference between the shadow of the things to come and the realities found in Christ. It is the realities that are perpetual, not the shadows! Circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not the written code and the true Sabbath is eternal.

And how long do you intend on continuing with these endless strawmen. I challenge you now! Once and for all. Provide ONE single quote that indicates, either in this thread, the OSAS thread, or ANYWHERE else in this forum where I have even made the slightest indication that Israel, as a physical nation was not cut off.

I expect a response to this challenge!

This discussion is not about Israel! It is about multiple gospels. Was God trying to make the born-again Jews jealous? Was he trying to make Stephen jealous while he was being stoned? The fact that Israel was cut off is not evidence of a second gospel! And the "do your very best and God will do the rest" gospel cannot be found anywhere in scripture - neither in Pauline doctrine or any of the letters written by the other apostles!
[/quote]

UD, "the fact that Israel was cut off is not evidence for a second gospel." I give up.

"remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace" Eph 2:11-15

ME, "God is not logical according to our minds." May I ask where you got that?

Sure.

That must be true since you can't comprehend this: "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:" Isaiah 14:24

"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9

"How great is God--beyond our understanding! The number of his years is past finding out." Job 36:26

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:9, 12

"Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." 1 Corinthians 2:11,13,14

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing," 1 Corinthians 1:18

First you have to discern who you are and if God is writing to you or some other group. If you want to find out if OSAS is for you, today, you can't look to what God said to Moses. You are not a Jew, citizen of Israel, and are not under the law (unless you mistakenly place yourself under the law).

I am not talking about OSAS. I am talking about the idea of two different gospels, and the idea that God's plans were fouled up by Israel rejecting the Messiah.

Let me ask you a question, as this is difficult to keep track of: Do you say that if Israel had not rejected their Messiah, then God's Kingdom would have been established on earth back in the first century?

You have to trust that the Author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit. The use of logic is not an option. Unless we reason logically, we can know nothing. What is it that Romans 9-11 reveal to you? Hebrews was written to Hebrews. Are you a Hebrew?

Hebrews is very important reading if you are conversing about Israel having a different gospel. You are discouraging us from reading Hebrews? Do you know how that looks?

Paul writes: "And God has appointed these in the church, first apostles, seond prophets, third teachers..." (1 Cor. 12:28). In order of importance, God placed teachers second only to apostles and prophets. Your instruction here is in direct opposition to God's word. What you wrote sounded so good! But it was your own opinion. You should have looked to God's word to see what He had to say. No?

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you" 1 John 2:27

God Himself has taught me the gospel of grace based on reading John and 1 John. I will abide in what He has taught me, rather than letting a man teach me differently.

Asserting that my reasoning is unsound is just that--an assertion. In logical debate, one is not allow to simply arbitrary assert something without any reasoned argument that shows why the assertion is true or false. An arbitrary assertion can be easily refuted with another arbitrary assertion. But in this type of dialogue, no truth can be reached.

It would be nice if you would take your own advice. I see a lot of arbitrary assertions in your "arguments".

First you have to discern who you are and if God is writing to you or some other group. If you want to find out if OSAS is for you, today, you can't look to what God said to Moses. You are not a Jew, citizen of Israel, and are not under the law (unless you mistakenly place yourself under the law).

TeeJay

If osas is for someone? That's a flesh response not a spiritual response. What we want and don't want is not the issue. Even your attempt to convert is flawed.

If osas is for someone? That's a flesh response not a spiritual response. What we want and don't want is not the issue. Even your attempt to convert is flawed.

I don't know why anyone would try to convert me. I don't even have a stance on OSAS. I know that my God has made promises that are very encouraging to me. (John 5:24; 10:28 OH, or do those not apply since Paul didn't write them?) I also know that he has given us warnings.

Jesus did not change his teachings. His disciples may have taken some time to fully understand them, but God did not change his plan. Jesus preached the gospel of grace and in his wisdom he allowed his disciples time to adjust.

John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Numbers 21:8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."

John 4:11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 4:10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

What did Jesus tell this woman? What did she have to do? She had to 1. know to whom she was speaking (John 8:24) and 2. ask him for the gift of the water that would give everlasting life.

I don't know why anyone would try to convert me. I don't even have a stance on OSAS. I know that my God has made promises that are very encouraging to me. (John 5:24; 10:28 OH, or do those not apply since Paul didn't write them?) I also know that he has given us warnings.

That's good. Being neutral means you can allow God's word and the Holy Spirit to guide you in what truth is concerning this,

ME, a Jew, under the covenant of circumcision still had to circumcise, keep the Sabbath, feasts, forgive, visit the sick, visit prisoners, have faith, witness, take the plow and not look back, take up his cross and follow Jesus, love Jesus more than his mom, lay hands on the sick, baptize, be a profitable servant, step on snakes and drink poison with immunity, speak in tongues of other nations, prophesy, and on and on. And if he endured to the end and gave it his best, God would add grace and say, "well done, good and faithful servant." This is why a Christian could not be assured of his salvation under this gospel.

Under Paul's gospel, Paul forbid his followers to circumcise or keep Sabbaths.

TeeJay

So if what you are saying is true, then how then does this differ from the covenant of uncircumcision? I am looking for a full understanding of what you are saying here. In other words, please describe your understanding of the covenant of uncircumcision as detailed as you have described the covenant of circumcision above.