I agree with that sentiment, a driver that has collisions can learn to stop having them / take less risk. A slower driver can not become faster. Whilst I prefer Dan, Max can easily become a better driver by just playing the long game a bit more. Dan's slight speed disadvantage, well there isn't anything he can do about that. Dan is probably the more complete driver at this time, but Max is 19 and has maybe more than 15 years in this sport to go.

I said earlier in the season that Verstappen was immature and got ribbed for it, it's nice to see that a few more people are beginning to see this.

yes but u gotta look past it and see his potential. After all, he has plenty of time.

Indeed I'm sure he will learn from his mistakes, it's important to finish races as well.

He's not failed to finish due to a mistake yet this season.

Edit - he's actually only made 1 race ending error in his entire time at Red Bull.

Not bad for a teenager and just shows how BS this narrative of Max bring the orchestrator of his own misfortune is. I wonder how many drivers over the same period have fewer race ending mistakes?

Last edited by mikeyg123 on Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah I mean it's not like Max has ever driven anyone off the track (and even said he would have done the same to Ric if he wasn't his team mate)!

Max having made mistakes doesn't mean he is in the wrong here though.

I don't know why you keep sticking to the right or wrong thing. It's irrelevant; morally - whatever that means in racing terms - he was obviously in the right. But he should have been able to read that there wasn't going to be space there, and he should never have tried to drive into it. I could tell Massa was going to close the door on him, and I have a hard time believing he couldn't. It doesn't matter if he feels he was wronged or not; he placed the car where there was going to be a collision, and there was.

You know if the roles were reversed and Verstappen was on the inside what would be the chances of Massa coming out of the corner in front?

Here's a couple of axioms from other sports that might clear this up a bit.

In cricket there are two types of "leaves", a "good leave" and a "bad leave".In F1 there are two types of passes, a "good pass" and a "bad pass".

In football, if you slide tackle your opponent in the box, don't be surprised if the ref. awards a penalty.In F1, if you overtake around the outside, don't be surprised if your opponent either understeers or deliberately pushes you wide.

Ultimately it's not relevant if the incident was MAS's or VES's fault.VES made many awesome passes during the race, especially in the first few corners, but it only took one bad pass to ruin it all.

Bottom line, if you put your head in the lions mouth, don't be surprised if it gets bitten off.

Alternatively, if there is a gap and you don't take it, you are no longer racing.

It's a tricky cut throat business which is why they get paid the big bucks.

Cheers,Noel

Exactly this. And this doesn't negate Verstappen's talents. He is rapid, and that's an invaluable asset. The rest he learn. He's still so young. Forget even life experience to come up for someone of that age.

oz_karter wrote:

I think we can all safely disagree with the thread title now.

Max may have qualified higher than Daniel at more races this year, but there is more to a driver's performance than qualifying.

Daniel has performed very well in races all year and his drives from the back of the field have been virtually perfect.

Definitively, Max is not out-performing Daniel.

And this.

mds wrote:

oz_karter wrote:

I think we can all safely disagree with the thread title now.

...

Definitively, Max is not out-performing Daniel.

For the limited time we can compare them apples to apples (qualifying and racetime up until the moment something messes it up for Verstappen) Max is outperforming Dan.

After those moments in the race, Dan shines but Max doesn't get to prove what he could/would have done.

Fair enough?

I get that you are trying to be diplomatic, but no not even apples and apples comes into this. This thread was debatable at the time it was posted, and given long enough, even perhaps in the next few races, it could be completely validated. But you have to go quite a few races back to provide robust evidence of Max outperforming Dan.

He's certainly qualifying ahead at times. But even the rare times they've been on the track together long enough, Dan's had at least equal race pace *and* kept his nose clean. Even in Hungary, he got in front of Max, and looked like he could carry a bit more pace if he hadn't been taken out by him.

And on the strength of Dan's performance in Monza, and the fact that Max sealed his own fate somewhat, it's hard to imagine that Dan wouldn't have ended up ahead of Max as well. Dan's race was genuinely one of the strongest of the entire season by any driver.

For the limited time we can compare them apples to apples (qualifying and racetime up until the moment something messes it up for Verstappen) Max is outperforming Dan.

After those moments in the race, Dan shines but Max doesn't get to prove what he could/would have done.

Fair enough?

Not so sure about those, as you say, "moments in the race". It certainly doesn't explain the driver coaching that Max received mid-race yesterday. Nor Hungary

Max will become a better driver when he learns a little patience and timing. Although at the moment, since he is becoming most impatient with his very own team, it doesn't seem he's going to change in the short term.

The problem with Verstappen is that he has to win every corner when he is side by side with someone even if it involves contact, of the top drivers he has by far the most collisions, it's not bad luck, it's the way he drives.

I agree with that sentiment, a driver that has collisions can learn to stop having them / take less risk. A slower driver can not become faster. Whilst I prefer Dan, Max can easily become a better driver by just playing the long game a bit more. Dan's slight speed disadvantage, well there isn't anything he can do about that. Dan is probably the more complete driver at this time, but Max is 19 and has maybe more than 15 years in this sport to go.

I said earlier in the season that Verstappen was immature and got ribbed for it, it's nice to see that a few more people are beginning to see this.

yes but u gotta look past it and see his potential. After all, he has plenty of time.

Indeed I'm sure he will learn from his mistakes, it's important to finish races as well.

He's not failed to finish due to a mistake yet this season.

Edit - he's actually only made 1 race ending error in his entire time at Red Bull.

Not bad for a teenager and just shows how BS this narrative of Max bring the orchestrator of his own misfortune is. I wonder how many drivers over the same period have fewer race ending mistakes?

He's cost himself 2 podiums with collisions with both Massa and Ricciardo, the fact he was able to carry on in both races was just luck, also I think trying to go around the outside of 2 cars into a chicane and then crashing out of the race because the 2 cars on the inside came together is not simply bad luck.

Let's not also forget he clipped and damaged Vettel's front wing which could very easily have punctured his rear tyre, all these are examples of over aggressive driving, some he got away with, some he didn't, you drive like this then the chances are that some of the races you either don't finish or you have to come into the pits for repairs.

You watch the screen shot with Massa and you see Verstappen's outside wheels partially off the track, ahead of him there's not enough room for him to get back on the track but he's got nearly full right lock on towards Massa's car despite the fact that their front wheels are nearly touching, trying to force himself back onto the track with seemingly no fear of the contact that might come.

For the limited time we can compare them apples to apples (qualifying and racetime up until the moment something messes it up for Verstappen) Max is outperforming Dan.

After those moments in the race, Dan shines but Max doesn't get to prove what he could/would have done.

Fair enough?

I get that you are trying to be diplomatic, but no not even apples and apples comes into this. This thread was debatable at the time it was posted, and given long enough, even perhaps in the next few races, it could be completely validated. But you have to go quite a few races back to provide robust evidence of Max outperforming Dan.

?All I'm saying is you can only compare what there is to compare: qualifying, and the representative parts of the races (i.e. when both can run unhindered). That's as apples to apples as you'll get. The rest is all ifs and woulds.

Quote:

He's certainly qualifying ahead at times. But even the rare times they've been on the track together long enough, Dan's had at least equal race pace *and* kept his nose clean. Even in Hungary, he got in front of Max, and looked like he could carry a bit more pace if he hadn't been taken out by him.

In Hungary, Verstappen had a great getaway, then had to lift for Raikkonen going slow in T1, then got pressed aside by a Mercedes. He was at fault for what happened, but I don't know how that can translate to "thinking Ricciardo could carry a bit more pace". There's nothing to go by that would indicate that, nor anything that would indicate the contrary.

Quote:

And on the strength of Dan's performance in Monza, and the fact that Max sealed his own fate somewhat, it's hard to imagine that Dan wouldn't have ended up ahead of Max as well. Dan's race was genuinely one of the strongest of the entire season by any driver.

He's cost himself 2 podiums with collisions with both Massa and Ricciardo, the fact he was able to carry on in both races was just luck, also I think trying to go around the outside of 2 cars into a chicane and then crashing out of the race because the 2 cars on the inside came together is not simply bad luck.

Let's not also forget he clipped and damaged Vettel's front wing which could very easily have punctured his rear tyre, all these are examples of over aggressive driving, some he got away with, some he didn't, you drive like this then the chances are that some of the races you either don't finish or you have to come into the pits for repairs.

You watch the screen shot with Massa and you see Verstappen's outside wheels partially off the track, ahead of him there's not enough room for him to get back on the track but he's got nearly full right lock on towards Massa's car despite the fact that their front wheels are nearly touching, trying to force himself back onto the track with seemingly no fear of the contact that might come.

Blaming him for Spain is absurd. It was a standard move that many drivers take at the start. The blame of that accident is 100% on Bottas. Verstappen was plain unlucky. No driver would not have gone for that because they were worried about cars coming together on the inside of them.

That aside I agree he puts his car in a position where it is going to get hit and that is something he has to work on but I really don't thin the weakness is as big or costing him as much as people make out.

Bottom line - He's cost himself probably around 20 points this season and that's if you blame him for the incident with Massa yesterday which was Massa's fault but could have been avoided. Retirements from mechanical failures have cost him around 90.

He's cost himself 2 podiums with collisions with both Massa and Ricciardo, the fact he was able to carry on in both races was just luck, also I think trying to go around the outside of 2 cars into a chicane and then crashing out of the race because the 2 cars on the inside came together is not simply bad luck.

Where did he go around the outside of two cars into a chicane that came together? Is this Spain you are talking about?And yes, if he leaves ample space then it is bad luck. You'd think those that actually came together would receive the blame but no, let's all pin it on Verstappen, who did nothing wrong and left space for cars on the inside.

He cost himself nothing with Massa yesterday, Massa cost him.And how did he cost himself a podium with a collision with Ricciardo? You're talking about Hungary here?

Quote:

You watch the screen shot with Massa and you see Verstappen's outside wheels partially off the track, ahead of him there's not enough room for him to get back on the track but he's got nearly full right lock on towards Massa's car despite the fact that their front wheels are nearly touching, trying to force himself back onto the track with seemingly no fear of the contact that might come.

You should watch the video. He's at full lock because the corner is a 90° righthander. He leaves ample space for Massa on the inside. He is not "trying to get back on track" - for the entire duration of the incident his trajectory is moving leftward (check it) until Massa decides to turn into where another car is and they touch.

I repeat: at not a single point in time is he moving into the track again.

He's cost himself 2 podiums with collisions with both Massa and Ricciardo, the fact he was able to carry on in both races was just luck, also I think trying to go around the outside of 2 cars into a chicane and then crashing out of the race because the 2 cars on the inside came together is not simply bad luck.

Where did he go around the outside of two cars into a chicane that came together? Is this Spain you are talking about?And yes, if he leaves ample space then it is bad luck. You'd think those that actually came together would receive the blame but no, let's all pin it on Verstappen, who did nothing wrong and left space for cars on the inside.

He cost himself nothing with Massa yesterday, Massa cost him.And how did he cost himself a podium with a collision with Ricciardo? You're talking about Hungary here?

Quote:

You watch the screen shot with Massa and you see Verstappen's outside wheels partially off the track, ahead of him there's not enough room for him to get back on the track but he's got nearly full right lock on towards Massa's car despite the fact that their front wheels are nearly touching, trying to force himself back onto the track with seemingly no fear of the contact that might come.

You should watch the video. He's at full lock because the corner is a 90° righthander. He leaves ample space for Massa on the inside. He is not "trying to get back on track" - for the entire duration of the incident his trajectory is moving leftward (check it) until Massa decides to turn into where another car is and they touch.

I repeat: at not a single point in time is he moving into the track again.

Going 3 wide into a chicane when you are on the outside is putting your car at risk, in Hungary he cost himself a podium because of the penalty he received for crashing his teammate out of the race.

Massa has to turn for the corner at the point of contact when they collided on the exit, Massa had his outside wheels off the track he couldn't go any wider, like I say the screenshot showed that there wasn't enough room for Verstappen to stay on the track because Massa forced him wide but Verstappen decided he wasn't leaving the track and went for a gap that was never there in the first place because of Massa's car.

If Verstappen had been left at Toro Rosso then he'd have been involved in a lot more collisions than he has been at Red Bull. He's been lucky to have been up against drivers with superior race craft who are able to avoid accidents with someone who drives as stupidly as Verstappen does at times.

If Verstappen had been left at Toro Rosso then he'd have been involved in a lot more collisions than he has been at Red Bull. He's been lucky to have been up against drivers with superior race craft who are able to avoid accidents with someone who drives as stupidly as Verstappen does at times.

Obviously. Everyone gets involved in more incidents when in the midfield.

If Verstappen had been left at Toro Rosso then he'd have been involved in a lot more collisions than he has been at Red Bull. He's been lucky to have been up against drivers with superior race craft who are able to avoid accidents with someone who drives as stupidly as Verstappen does at times.

This is in fact true and against drivers who have more to lose and can't afford DNF's.

He stopped driving alongside when he decided he wanted to be on the same part of the track Massa was on, at which point they collided.

Think we're going to keep disagreeing - I think you have the responsibilities reversed. Max didn't decide he wanted to be on the same part of the track, Massa did. Verstappen didn't move right to take Massa's position or the ideal line, Massa moved to where Max was as if he wasn't there.

We clearly are, since you keep arguing in circles and bringing up responsibility where it's irrelevant. But I'll try one more time to boil my position down to a point where hopefully you won't respond about blame again:

Verstappen should have been able to tell that doing what he did was going to lead to a collision.

That's it. It doesn't matter if doing what he did 'should' have led to a collision. It doesn't matter if Massa was driving unfairly. I believe that it was an error in judgment to try to take the corner with Massa doing what he was doing. If you don't cooperate with an armed robber and get shot, it's certainly the robber's 'fault' - but you still made a stupid decision by not seeing what he was going to do. That's how I feel on the Massa/Verstappen incident.

I also think you accept the thinnest possible evidence to say Max is doing better, then ignore anything at all that implies Ricciardo is. That's another reason we're probably not going to get anywhere in this debate. If you were an Alonso fan, I get the strong feeling you would have found some way to deny that Vandoorne was better last weekend. I value objectivity as a fan of a driver or team, and I don't feel that you display it about Max.

Yeah I mean it's not like Max has ever driven anyone off the track (and even said he would have done the same to Ric if he wasn't his team mate)!

Max having made mistakes doesn't mean he is in the wrong here though.

I don't know why you keep sticking to the right or wrong thing. It's irrelevant; morally - whatever that means in racing terms - he was obviously in the right. But he should have been able to read that there wasn't going to be space there, and he should never have tried to drive into it. I could tell Massa was going to close the door on him, and I have a hard time believing he couldn't. It doesn't matter if he feels he was wronged or not; he placed the car where there was going to be a collision, and there was.

You know if the roles were reversed and Verstappen was on the inside what would be the chances of Massa coming out of the corner in front?

Very low to none. Verstappen would probably have shut the door on Massa as well; going around the outside of that corner takes a compliant driver, and Max isn't one.

If Verstappen had been left at Toro Rosso then he'd have been involved in a lot more collisions than he has been at Red Bull. He's been lucky to have been up against drivers with superior race craft who are able to avoid accidents with someone who drives as stupidly as Verstappen does at times.

I'd wager he would be in fewer collisions than Kvyat. And probably Sainz too

I think it's becoming obvious Dan is outperforming max everywhere right now outside of Qualifying and wet races.

No shame in that though, Dan is in beast mode right now. and Max has many years to improve.

You would think that, but no. Max can turn in 1 or 2 laps faster than Dan before he breaks down, so Max is outperforming Dan.

Finishing doesn't matter, it's all about what you can achieve before you see the purple smoke

I don't get why it's so difficult to understand that those bits are being compared because those are the only bits we can compare. Yes, we could hypothesise than Ricciardo would somehow overtake Max later in the race but what we actually know is that Max has been doing better for the bits of the race that we can compare them.

Because it's irrelevant and ridiculous to make such bold statements based on a brief moment of the race, just to appease the Max fanboys.

Do you look at Austria and compare Max and Dan for the 2 seconds Max was running? Maybe the bits you're comparing are when Dan is in conserving the car, to give himself a better chance at the end, where it matters? If that's the case, then they aren't comparable.

Good grief. Vin Diesel doesn't tell us "It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, as long as you are faster at some point before you're eventually overtaken, you're the winner."

Because it's irrelevant and ridiculous to make such bold statements based on a brief moment of the race, just to appease the Max fanboys.

Do you look at Austria and compare Max and Dan for the 2 seconds Max was running? Maybe the bits you're comparing are when Dan is in conserving the car, to give himself a better chance at the end, where it matters? If that's the case, then they aren't comparable.

Good grief. Vin Diesel doesn't tell us "It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, as long as you are faster at some point before you're eventually overtaken, you're the winner."

It's possible of course. Possible. But we do actually know that Max is performing better at the comparable bits. Knowing that and knowing how unusual it is for drivers to be able to overtake their team mates later in the race it would seem rather harsh to just blindly assume that Dan would more often than not come on stronger as the race progresses. Of course as I've said, that could be the case but it does seem rather like clutching as straws.

Mikey, since we're just spewing assumptions in this thread, what if max is ignoring directions of 'ensure no longitudinal wheel slip in the first 6 laps' or 'don't reach lat/lon g-force of 4.9 before the fuel load is under 70%' or 'don't upchange beyond 10750rpm' or 'don't upchange while experiencing wheel slip' etc, etc, because doing so will make the lap times a bit slower?

What if dan is consciously going below his capabilities with the thought/instruction of a plan for the remaining race(s) the car needs to complete?

Mikey, since we're just spewing assumptions in this thread, what if max is ignoring directions of 'ensure no longitudinal wheel slip in the first 6 laps' or 'don't reach lat/lon g-force of 4.9 before the fuel load is under 70%' or 'don't upchange beyond 10750rpm' or 'don't upchange while experiencing wheel slip' etc, etc, because doing so will make the lap times a bit slower?

What if dan is consciously going below his capabilities with the thought/instruction of a plan for the remaining race(s) the car needs to complete?

If that were the case then obviously Max would be responsible for all his retirements. As you say though, just more assumptions and guess work. I have only commented on what we actually know.

Apart from average starts, Riccardo is leading Verstappen in every other stat. That's not outperforming.

And with that, I'm not taking anymore of your bait. I'm backing out until the next time Max does something silly, so I can make another joke about him outperforming Dan.

I'm afraid that the total lack of acknowledgement of Verstappen's many retirements in strong positions shows you're bias.

I don't claim that Max is out performing Dan. I've only really claimed two things.

- of the bits of the weekend we can compare Max has been doing better more often than not

- Any attempt to create a narrative where you paint Verstappen is the author of his own misfortune this season is BS.

I like Ricciardo a lot. Probabĺy my favourite personality on the grid and certainly good enough to be a future multi champion. I just find it a shame when people try to claim things that are just unfair.

Max is certainly on top in quali now. Something I think will stay the same- overall. Beyond that, can't say. F1 is 300km per race. Until a driver actually completes that distance, the rest of the race doesn't really mean anything.

Looks like all the Aussies and Ricciarso fans have come out in force to kick the new guy when he's down.

I think it's more that the thread always gets new life on the (rare) occasions when both drivers finish the race, and we actually get some new data to compare them on. This time most people feel Dan won, so naturally the majority of responses are from his camp.

If Max wins the next time they both finish, I'm sure we'll mostly be seeing his fans trumpeting the victory.

I thought the incident with Massa was a big error of judgement. Not so much regarding blame, but the extent to which he should have seen it coming, it's inevitability and the time/opportunity he had to avoid it. Watch the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KZprYBQI2YAbout 0:03 ish when they are side by side and Max is pointing towards the speed bumps. At that point there is already no possible way he's going to make corner and not collide with Massa. Massa is too deep to give him room even if he really wanted too.

I thought the incident with Massa was a big error of judgement. Not so much regarding blame, but the extent to which he should have seen it coming, it's inevitability and the time/opportunity he had to avoid it. Watch the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KZprYBQI2YAbout 0:03 ish when they are side by side and Max is pointing towards the speed bumps. At that point there is already no possible way he's going to make corner and not collide with Massa. Massa is too deep to give him room even if he really wanted too.

Thanks! That's what I've been trying to argue as well. It doesn't matter if it was his fault or not, Max should have seen it coming and avoided it.

I thought the incident with Massa was a big error of judgement. Not so much regarding blame, but the extent to which he should have seen it coming, it's inevitability and the time/opportunity he had to avoid it. Watch the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KZprYBQI2YAbout 0:03 ish when they are side by side and Max is pointing towards the speed bumps. At that point there is already no possible way he's going to make corner and not collide with Massa. Massa is too deep to give him room even if he really wanted too.

Yeah I mentioned that earlier in this thread when looking at one of the screenshots that was posted, you could argue that Massa was a bit naughty but what then Verstappen was attempting to do was not very wise.

I thought the incident with Massa was a big error of judgement. Not so much regarding blame, but the extent to which he should have seen it coming, it's inevitability and the time/opportunity he had to avoid it. Watch the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KZprYBQI2YAbout 0:03 ish when they are side by side and Max is pointing towards the speed bumps. At that point there is already no possible way he's going to make corner and not collide with Massa. Massa is too deep to give him room even if he really wanted too.

Yeah I mentioned that earlier in this thread when looking at one of the screenshots that was posted, you could argue that Massa was a bit naughty but what then Verstappen was attempting to do was not very wise.

What Massa did was naughty and I lay the blame for the accident at his door. Unfortunately it's common tactic of the experienced driver when someone is a tempting to overtake around the outside in a chicane. Go too deep and make a situation like we saw on Sunday. The overtaking driver who has effectively got the move done either has to crash or jump across the inside to avoid a crash. After witch the overtaken driver will bellyache like mad about being overtaken off the track.

As the stewards refuse to act the only way to put a stop to this is if the overtaking driver lets the crash happen. After a few retirements or punctures/wing changes etc the overtaken driver will soon abandon the tactic. Unfortunately the wrong driver sustained damage here. I would 100% agree that Max could and if sensible would have avoided the accident. I can't help but feel a little happy at his refusal to be gamed like that though.

Maybe, but it was good to see someone giving that spoiled little brat a piece of his own medicine. It probably won't do any good, though. It's clear Verstappen doesn't learn from his mistakes, probably because he doesn't recognize them as mistakes. That's why after two and a half seasons he still drives every GP like it's his first one . . . completely caught up in his own hype.

I thought the incident with Massa was a big error of judgement. Not so much regarding blame, but the extent to which he should have seen it coming, it's inevitability and the time/opportunity he had to avoid it. Watch the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KZprYBQI2YAbout 0:03 ish when they are side by side and Max is pointing towards the speed bumps. At that point there is already no possible way he's going to make corner and not collide with Massa. Massa is too deep to give him room even if he really wanted too.

Yeah I mentioned that earlier in this thread when looking at one of the screenshots that was posted, you could argue that Massa was a bit naughty but what then Verstappen was attempting to do was not very wise.

What Massa did was naughty and I lay the blame for the accident at his door. Unfortunately it's common tactic of the experienced driver when someone is a tempting to overtake around the outside in a chicane. Go too deep and make a situation like we saw on Sunday. The overtaking driver who has effectively got the move done either has to crash or jump across the inside to avoid a crash. After witch the overtaken driver will bellyache like mad about being overtaken off the track.

As the stewards refuse to act the only way to put a stop to this is if the overtaking driver lets the crash happen. After a few retirements or punctures/wing changes etc the overtaken driver will soon abandon the tactic. Unfortunately the wrong driver sustained damage here. I would 100% agree that Max could and if sensible would have avoided the accident. I can't help but feel a little happy at his refusal to be gamed like that though.

Hang on a bit here Verstappen is probably the worse culprit for this kind of driving and now we are going to play the victim card for him.

A starting point would have been to clamp down on what Verstappen does, the fact is that he gets away with worse things then what you accuse Massa of, we can't be having separate rules to suit Verstappen.

I thought the incident with Massa was a big error of judgement. Not so much regarding blame, but the extent to which he should have seen it coming, it's inevitability and the time/opportunity he had to avoid it. Watch the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KZprYBQI2YAbout 0:03 ish when they are side by side and Max is pointing towards the speed bumps. At that point there is already no possible way he's going to make corner and not collide with Massa. Massa is too deep to give him room even if he really wanted too.

Yeah I mentioned that earlier in this thread when looking at one of the screenshots that was posted, you could argue that Massa was a bit naughty but what then Verstappen was attempting to do was not very wise.

What Massa did was naughty and I lay the blame for the accident at his door. Unfortunately it's common tactic of the experienced driver when someone is a tempting to overtake around the outside in a chicane. Go too deep and make a situation like we saw on Sunday. The overtaking driver who has effectively got the move done either has to crash or jump across the inside to avoid a crash. After witch the overtaken driver will bellyache like mad about being overtaken off the track.

As the stewards refuse to act the only way to put a stop to this is if the overtaking driver lets the crash happen. After a few retirements or punctures/wing changes etc the overtaken driver will soon abandon the tactic. Unfortunately the wrong driver sustained damage here. I would 100% agree that Max could and if sensible would have avoided the accident. I can't help but feel a little happy at his refusal to be gamed like that though.

Hang on a bit here Verstappen is probably the worse culprit for this kind of driving and now we are going to play the victim card for him.

A starting point would have been to clamp down on what Verstappen does, the fact is that he gets away with worse things then what you accuse Massa of, we can't be having separate rules to suit Verstappen.

Verstappen was the victim in this case so it would be misleading to portray anything else.

When Verstappen drives dirtily I criticise him for it.

I don't believe as you do that he is the "worse culprit" not even close actually when was the last time you saw Verstappen deliberately shove someone else off the road? It happens but rarely compared to some drivers in the midfield. Verstappen get's more attention because he is higher profile but he certainly behaves no worse than a lot of the midfield.

Verstappen dangerous trick that got people talking about him was moving over on the straight after the driver behind had committed to his move. He's stopped doing that. He's no more likely to push another driver off the road as anybody else.