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08:37:47 minion: chant
08:37:47 MORE AN ASDF
08:37:52 *amoe* beams
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12:57:45 Any SRFI with a oneliner to reverse the endianness of an integer ?
13:01:55 heh
13:02:03 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme
13:02:24 To "reverse" the endianess of an integer?
13:02:27 rudybot: seen leppie
13:02:27 leppie: leppie was seen joining in :#scheme twenty-four seconds ago, and then leppie was seen in #scheme zero seconds ago, saying "rudybot: seen leppie"
13:02:27 haha
13:02:31 Arafangion: quite.
13:02:46 arggg, what was my last quit message? ping timeout?
13:03:03 rixed: You could try flipping the bits.
13:03:12 leppie: 13:53 leppie < [~lolcow@196-209-224-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:03:21 rixed: first you'd need to know how many bytes are in the integer. second, thinking of it as 'swap' or 'reverse' is misleading. best way to think of endianness is as an encoding tht is little or big and is applied very specifically when inputting or outputting a bytestream.
13:03:26 thx surrounder
13:03:59 There is also "middle endian" and "network order".
13:04:06 rixed: i.e. construct a host native integer from shifts, masks, and add/or. and vice versa.
13:04:28 Arafangion: the latter can use a standard library and the former is irrelevant today.
13:05:15 qu1j0t3: Oh, some embedded systems are still funky.
13:05:47 Arafangion: it's normally used to describe a quirk of the pdp-11. but yeah if your system is 'funky' then do whatever it needs.
13:10:48 well, ideally I'd like a function to convert an ipv6 (128 bits) from network to host order.
13:10:57 but any "flip bytes" solution would suit my need
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13:12:33 qu1j0t3: Incidentally, the reason it's "funky", is because it's 8-bit.
13:12:40 qu1j0t3: microcontrollers. :)
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13:18:44 rixed: please don't think of it as a flip. You're going from a well defined encoding to an integer.
13:18:58 rixed: or, to a decomposed integer.
13:19:09 neither case is a 'flip' or a 'swap' or a 'reverse'
13:21:59 qu1j0t3: indeed, yet to go from this well defined encoding (network byte order) into an integer, I need to (on my current arch) flip bytes :-)
13:22:13 qu1j0t3: but any portable solution will be warmly welcomed of course!
13:22:15 why don't you just read the bytes then construct an integer?
13:23:10 qu1j0t3: This is what I'm doing now, but I wondered if anything better was available
13:23:35 anything else is below scheme's level of abstraction (i.e. an assembler hack that depends on the way memory is loaded into a register)
13:23:55 (registers having no endianness :)
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13:27:50 is scheme an abstraction layer for C ?
13:27:58 i don't remember which lisp dialect was, but i think it's C
13:28:09 i want to be able to have simple conversions between the lisp variant and C
13:28:13 cryptopsy: some schemes compile into C.
13:28:23 cryptopsy: and most have a foreign function interface
13:28:39 cryptopsy: Chicken is a good example of both
13:28:42 no i want conversion between langs, not foreign function interface
13:28:48 chicken?
13:28:52 cryptopsy: in what sense conversion?
13:28:57 cryptopsy: communication?
13:29:03 you know like how a chinese can translate to english
13:29:10 cryptopsy: some schemes compile into C.
13:29:14 yea 'some'
13:29:17 why would you type it twice
13:29:29 i'm sure you didn't even type it all out, you just hit up+return
13:29:32 because it's not clear if that answers your concern/ more detail on 'translation'?
13:29:43 2. To change to another condition, position, place, or
13:29:43 office; to transfer; hence, to remove as by death.
13:29:44 [1913 Webster]
13:30:01 cryptopsy: ...in the context of C and Scheme. what do you mean by 'simple conversions' ?
13:30:11 as in automatic
13:30:16 and reliable
13:30:17 like a compiler?
13:30:22 no like a god damn parser
13:30:23 or you mean data types?
13:30:34 no i mean the whole C program or the whole scheme
13:30:51 yes you can write a parser in either direction. or use one that's out there.
13:30:54 you know how there's java-to-c translators?
13:31:04 there are scheme-to-C translators.
13:31:05 way to avoid the question again
13:31:08 chicken is one.
13:31:12 oh okay, what is another?
13:31:44 there was a lisp dialect who's introduction clearly stated it was an abstration layer for C
13:31:55 my first guess was lisp but now i doubt it
13:32:02 maybe common-lisp
13:32:08 lisp is 15 years older than C.
13:32:23 rff [~rff@ip72-207-248-18.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme
13:32:28 and Common Lisp is not an abstraction layer for C by intent.
13:32:43 so what if lisp is 15 years old
13:32:46 older
13:32:59 how does that prove anything
13:34:59 thanks
13:35:41 doesnt seem to be too popular, not in the gentoo main treee
13:35:59 is qi/shen dead?
13:36:05 cryptopsy: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/scheme-repository/imp.html
13:36:13 is mark tarver dead?
13:36:17 cryptopsy: chicken is in gentoo
13:36:26 cryptopsy: but it's probably not the latest
13:36:33 yea, in other repo that only desperate people look at
13:36:48 it's not under dev-lisp/
13:36:50 no, in main portage.
13:36:51 where all the other popular lisps are
13:36:54 cryptopsy: right, t's a scheme.
13:37:08 cryptopsy: it's in gentoo's main package lib, iirc.
13:37:28 cryptopsy: but may not be the latest version, which is 4.7.0
13:39:12 only thing i see 'chicken' is the game
13:39:27 Description: Target chickens with rockets and shotguns. Funny
13:41:46 ah it's dev-scheme, which i was blacklisting because i don't use scheme ... yet ...
13:42:40 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:42:45 thanks
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13:58:52 can I ask a question about SICP in this channel? I don't understand how `add-terms` works in chapter 2.5.3. I think we should call `(apply-generic add (coeff t1) (coeff t2))` but we are calling just `(add (coeff t1) (coeff t2))`, can anyone explain?
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14:03:09 bsod1: Sadly, I can't remember the exercise :-(
14:03:59 alaricsp: damn this last part of chapter 2 is strange, I really don't think this functions are working :)
14:04:40 bsod1: don't you try the functions for real? doing the whole SICP in your head?
14:05:27 rixed: I'm running all code and solving all exercises, but I can't run code in the last part of chapte r2
14:06:04 rixed: I took a break before this chapter, maybe it's because I forgot some procedures we defined before
14:06:22 before last part of this chapter*
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14:08:15 wow, ok, I get it
14:08:39 yeah like what I said, I forgot some stuff we defined before..
14:09:27 bsod1: it's funny how stating your problem often leads you to find out the solution. Some people use teddy bear for that :)
14:09:45 haha :)
14:10:17 (not sure the bear tool is considered XP or not)
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15:00:09 Hi there, quick question: why is this code not working as I expect?
15:00:16 (define (pop! l)
15:00:17 (begin (set! l (cdr l))))
15:00:29 grwip: set! does not do what you think it does.
15:00:39 For what you're wanting to do, you need to use boxes.
15:00:44 cky: +1 :)
15:00:53 leppie: :-)
15:01:00 ok, thx I'll look into that, never heard of boxes...
15:01:08 grwip: The central issue is that Scheme is always pass-by-value, never pass-by-reference.
15:01:15 grwip: Boxes simulate pass-by-reference to a point.
15:01:46 I'm curious because I wrote a append-2! function using set-cdr! and it worked as I expected
15:02:08 you normally use the return value of append!
15:02:09 I guess it's because when I pass a list to the function it's a reference but set-cdr! acts on the real 'pointers'
15:02:28 yes I know, just stupid exercises for uni
15:02:35 learning about side-effects
15:02:37 you could do the same with pop!
15:02:39 grwip: Right, but if the thing you're appending to is an empty list, you're sunk. ;-)
15:02:55 There's nothing to set-cdr! on in an empty list. :-P
15:03:42 yes I can see that, as it is said in the exercise's text: 'just expect the user to be smart and not sending you an empty list...
15:04:04 Lulz.
15:04:10 it's really exercises, not much sense into all that
15:04:13 Did it say anything about anybody sharing that list with anything else? ;-)
15:04:51 it says you must not do nor use this kind of functions but it's just to experiment with side effects
15:06:50 Mmmm-hmmm
15:07:54 but I'm really not happy with this exercises, first he tells you to use #lang scheme and then you have an exercise where you need to use set-cdr!
15:08:31 so you have to figure out that set-cdr! doesn't exist in #lang scheme so you have to use #lang r5rs...
15:08:58 old course notes die hard
15:09:14 yeah I guess, recycling is nice but there are limits...
15:09:26 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
15:10:26 You can use lang/racket, but, you have to touch up things a little.... ;-)
15:10:30 rudybot: init racket
15:10:31 cky: your sandbox is ready
15:11:27 rudybot: (require racket/mpair)
15:11:27 cky: Done.
15:11:48 rudybot: (define a (mlist 1 2 3 4))
15:11:48 cky: Done.
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15:13:13 rudybot: (define (last-mpair x) (if (null? (mcdr x)) x (last-mpair (mcdr x))))
15:13:13 cky: Done.
15:13:17 rudybot: (last-mpair a)
15:13:17 cky: ; Value: {4}
15:13:36 rudybot: (set-mcdr! (last-mpair a) (mlist 5 6 7 8))
15:13:36 cky: Done.
15:13:39 rudybot: a
15:13:40 cky: ; Value: {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8}
15:13:48 grwip: There you go. :-D
15:14:19 set! != setf
15:14:38 zmv: Right.
15:14:52 zmv: Though, with SRFI 17, you can sort-of get there.
15:14:58 cky: thanks for the demo, impressive rudybot... I came up with this code for my append-2! function using r5rs and read a bit about mutable pairs but I wanted to stick to what's used in my course (surely a not so good idea...)
15:15:02 But that still won't give you pass-by-reference.
15:16:00 grwip: :-)
15:17:34 in fact what I have to write is a (delete! x l) that physically remove all elements equal? to x in the list l, but the correction I have gives us a function that does that except for the first elements (sic) so I was trying to figure some pop! function to get something better...
15:18:07 but the more I think about that and the more I think I'll just skip that part and spend this time learning about mutable pairs and boxes...
15:19:17 anyway thanks very much for the help/quick response, I'm discovering IRC and it's just very useful
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15:27:06 hallooo!!!!!
15:27:46 grwip: IRC is the best support medium EVAH!
15:28:07 qualcuno o
15:28:15 parla italino?
15:28:21 italiano?
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15:28:32 grwip: Sounds like you understand what's happening better than your teachers do ;-)
15:29:24 ????
15:29:30 alaricsp: I try to ;). But I think he's just being lazy not updating his courses...
15:29:46 RAGA QUALCUNO PARLA ITALIANO?
15:30:22 alaricsp: and maybe to lazy to dig in what he's teaching... that sometimes makes me sad but I'm kind of used to it now...
15:30:30 Poor grwip :-(
15:30:51 My lecturers at University were great, but I already knew the material as I was a keen reader
15:31:08 So I only really realised how great they were when I got into conversation with some outside of lectures :-)
15:31:24 alaricsp: Did you read section 7.2 of R5RS? If you can ace that, you can ace anything. ;-)
15:31:35 *alaricsp* looks up what section 7.2 is
15:31:42 Denotational semantics. :-)
15:31:48 -!- zurich13 [~zurich13@95.235.208.96] has quit [Client Quit]
15:32:10 so really, nobody here speaks italian? :/
15:32:23 Ah, semantics. We had a semantics course, and the lecturer put all the notes and exercises on his web site.
15:32:33 alaricsp: yes that can be nice, but I'm enrolled in distance learning so it's not easy to discuss with teachers, the ones that are lazy writing their notes are also lazy answering to emails...
15:32:35 So I did them all from home and submitted them electronically and didn't turn up to a single lecture
15:32:54 Then I turned up to the exam at the end, and there were only a handful of other people on the course, who all looked at me in surprise!
15:33:02 qu1j0t3: Where I live (in the Southeastern US), more people speak Spanish than Italian. But I guess the further north you go, the more Italians you find....
15:33:05 I'd imagined my absence would be unnoted amongst a sea of students!
15:33:22 Can't remember if it was denotational or operational semantics, though
15:33:36 alaricsp: Hahaha, very nice.
15:33:43 cky: poor old zurich13
15:33:53 qu1j0t3: I know.
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15:41:59 why did the italian guy scream and leave?
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15:43:35 *ijp* mumbles something about stereotypical italian hotheadedness
15:43:57 oh, it's not just italians :D
15:44:07 zmv: because nobody answered him.
15:44:09 of course not
15:44:12 But, yeah, section 7.2 looks OK to me ;-)
15:46:42 siesta time!
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15:59:37 Damn, I missed drama?
16:00:19 ?
16:01:07 -!- qu1j0t3 is now known as drama
16:01:12 the screaming italian guy
16:01:13 freakazoid: no, I'm here most of the time.
16:01:16 haha
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16:08:03 loldrama
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16:22:14 Hey, it's that guy whose shadow tells you the time
16:23:04 :)
16:24:34 ah, I finally figured out the difference between arrays and cvectors
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16:45:05 Has anyone else written an Irssi script that sends them an SMS when they're pinged in #scheme while away?
16:45:24 I see some Perl monstrosities that go over email.
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16:46:08 klutometis: Do you want to send an SMS from a locally connected gsm-modem via AT commands?
16:48:11 klutometis: this opens up a new nice way to annoy you
16:48:17 ;)
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16:51:12 antoszka: That would be cool; I was thinking more along the lines of Twilio (have to have an account, though).
16:51:26 keenbug: Not only that, it could potentially DDOS my wallet with SMS costs.
16:51:41 Nothing along these lines I heard of.
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16:54:08 We hired sjamaan a while ago to write an smsmatrix wrapper in Chicken (); too bad Irssi is only scriptable in Perl, AFAICT.
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16:57:33 klutometis: isn't it possible to call the chicken script from perl?
16:57:34 klutometis: weechat is scriptable in a passel of languages. like, six.
16:57:47 weechat needs chikn scriptability )
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17:33:17 drama: Thanks for `passel': what a great word; looks like Weechat does perl, python, ruby, lua and tcl. Wonder how hard it would be to extend to Chicken?
17:34:29 Surely, an irssi-Chicken bridge is higher-priority? ;-)
17:34:43 talks about C plugins interacting with WeeChat core; FFI, maybe?
17:35:16 cky: By Zeus, that would be great; it seems like there's a pretty promiscuous relationship betwee Irssi and Perl.
17:36:05 Polyglottal meta-extensibility to other languages didn't seem to be a design decision by the Irssi authors.
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17:38:23 cky: Ah, but there's a shared-object-based module interface for back-door men.
17:38:46 Sorry; that's an awkward epithet.
17:41:49 Hahahahahahaha.
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17:52:02 i want to make a lookup such that an alist is traversed in such a way that given a lowest-limit value, i get from an alist the element whose car is the highest value that's greater than or equal to lowest-limit .
17:52:30 would any SRFI procedure be usable in this, or do i better write this from scratch?
17:52:54 fold maybe?
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18:03:30 Yes, you can use filter + fold, if I understood your question correctly.
18:03:38 So, two parts:
18:04:08 1. filter out the elements that don't meet your low-water mark.
18:04:33 2. fold on the elements that remain.
18:05:48 s/fold/reduce/g
18:06:13 cky: the definition of fold is as follows yes?: (fold iterator-thunk init-val vals-list) => accumulator
18:06:28 where iterator-thunk is (currently-iterated-value accumulator) => new accumulator
18:06:29 yes?
18:06:29 Well, thunk is the wrong word.
18:06:34 Function is a better word.
18:06:38 ah yes.
18:07:39 incredible this definition is nowhere, even in the srfi doc page it's not explcitly stated, only presumed/implied - http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#fold
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18:08:07 klutometis: it would be awesome if weechat was scriptable in Chikn! /me will mention it to a bored friend
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18:08:40 BW^-: it does "If n list arguments are provided, then the kons function must take n+1 parameters: one element from each list, and the "seed" or fold state, which is initially knil."
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18:08:49 rudybot: (define (fold1 func init lst) (if (null? lst) init (fold1 func (func (car lst) init) (cdr lst))))
18:08:49 cky: your sandbox is ready
18:08:49 cky: Done.
18:09:01 rudybot: (fold1 + 0 '(1 2 3 4 5))
18:09:01 cky: ; Value: 15
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18:09:16 ijp,cky: aah you're right, thank you
18:09:31 it was expectable. :)
18:09:37 drama: weechat? url?
18:10:04 BW^-: awesome text mode client. http://www.weechat.org/
18:11:35 rudybot: (define (reduce func init lst) (if (null? lst) init (fold1 func (car lst) (cdr lst))))
18:11:35 cky: Done.
18:11:42 rudybot: (reduce + 0 '(1 2 3 4 5))
18:11:42 cky: ; Value: 15
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18:24:39 drama: Thanks.
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18:26:23 -!- drama is now known as qu1j0t3
18:27:10 qu1j0t3: Bored friends are a source of great good or great evil.
18:27:26 it's a force to be channeled
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18:29:19 *klutometis* , had he had his way, would husband great farms of idleness; and harvest ambitious deeds.
18:29:49 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.135.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:30:13 You know, most of the energy of the species goes into figuring out how to channel things like idleness.
18:30:30 I mean, the energy that doesn't go into the things it's channeled to
18:31:05 freakazoid: That's the blessing and curse of calorically dense foods like bread, I guess; we no longer have an 18-hour a day foraging schedule.
18:31:32