Dubai, on the other hand, markets itself as fun in the sun, a kind of Las Vegas on the Persian Gulf. Yet it has far more in common with Saudi Arabia than you’d imagine. Before you say, “But Alex, Dubai is the forward looking part of the Middle East that wants to engage with the world,” I invite you to consider the case of Marte Deborah Dalelv.

Dalelv is a Norwegian fashion designer who was on a business trip in Dubai in 2013. During an evening out, she was raped. She later reported her attack to the police. The authorities’ reaction? Ms Dalelv was charged with perjury, having extramarital sex and drinking alcohol. She received a 16-month jail sentence.

It’s full of entertaining bon mots, too.

Bigger, better, higher, glitzier, nastier: it’s like an entire city designed by Donald Trump.

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Dubai, on the other hand, markets itself as fun in the sun, a kind of Las Vegas on the Persian Gulf.

Ugh. I was dragged to Las Vegas so many times when I was a kid, been there too many times as an adult, and it’s always had the same effect on me – bores me to tears.

Dalelv is a Norwegian fashion designer who was on a business trip in Dubai in 2013. During an evening out, she was raped. She later reported her attack to the police. The authorities’ reaction? Ms Dalelv was charged with perjury, having extramarital sex and drinking alcohol. She received a 16-month jail sentence.

I was there some years ago for concerts. It is kind of mindbogglingly boring and pointless. The only habitable area is an artificial strip near the coast; if you go inland for 2-3 miles there’s just one helluva big sandbox. The only rule seemed to be “let it cost as much as possible”. Best example: we once had dinner in a Iranian restaurant situated in a shopping mall right next to a huge glass wall looking down on… a real ski piste, with real snow. Inside a shopping center in Dubai, that is. Jawdropping waste of money; intriguing but disgusting. Not to be recommended for a holiday.

The good thing about Las Vegas is that air fares there are relatively low and from Las Vegas you can quickly get out to some interesting places to camp and hike. Las Vegas itself is on borrowed time, like virtually every other city in the west. Unlike every other city they know it and are building cheap and flashy to get what they can while they can.

Caine @6: There is that. Perhaps it’s all part of the sales pitch: Las Vegas, the city literally living on the edge. Determined to have it all before the inevitable end…Or something. OTOH, I don’t see any way any of the western desert cities are going to survive given that they’re pumping the water out from under themselves. Looks like they’ll all either disappear in a drought or sink into the ground. Literally.

Yep, been there twice now. If you love malls then it’s a great spot to visit. Otherwise you’ll be disappointed. Unless you really love outdoor heats in 122DegF head tat 95% humidity. Something which I didn’t even think was possible.

But, you miss one of the most odious parts. A lot of the people working there are what’s referred to as third country nationals. That is, they are from the Philippines, India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh etc. Often times they live in squalid conditions 6-7 sleeping in one small room for absolutely abysmal pay. And that’s if they’re lucky. If they’re unlucky, their employer takes their passport as soon as they show up in country and then they are virtual slaves, the employer never actually pays them. As a result of this and a weird quirk of Arab culture, they have had a rash of suicides as people desperate to support their families back home kill themselves because they know their employer will be required to pay a death benefit to their families.

Yeah, it’s a pretty messed up place. I did like a lot of the people I met there but overall it is a sweltering, overbuilt, human rights violation built on a real estate bubble and lies.

Wow, I’m astonished that this was allowed to be published in the Telegraph (right-wing paper; once had a good reputation). They’d normally be reluctant to print something which takes a pop at rich people.

And then it hit me. You know exactly who [the sort of visitors to Dubai] Dubai man and woman are. They’re a certain brassy subset of the middle-classes. …The kind of people who drive SUVs with personalised plates …they probably don’t have many books on their shelves

Boom, there it is: just a shitty classist excuse for sneering at people from the wrong sort of family who happen to have money, but no – you know – taste…That’s why it got published in the Telegraph.

OTOH, I don’t see any way any of the western desert cities are going to survive given that they’re pumping the water out from under themselves. Looks like they’ll all either disappear in a drought or sink into the ground. Literally.

Well, LV has done everything in their power to make sure the obscene displays of water keep gushing, including stealing water from the local Indians. While I wouldn’t be in the least bit disturbed to see Vegas drop into a hole in the ground, I’ve been hearing the super-dire “Vegas will die from lack of water” warnings since the beginning of the 1970s. Those predictions were wildly popular back then, along with the “oh, wow, you’re from SoCal? That’s gonna break off and slide into the ocean, ya know” and similar.

If you are sick about hearing how great Dubai is, here is another good rant to make your blood boil. That one deals with the unspeakably abominable treatment of workers who come to Dubai to build those hotels (which, despite what you might see in marketing prospectuses, are shoddily constructed and do great harm to the environment) and be domestic servants. As well, the article exposes the practices of Western expats who live in Dubai — people who probably profess the correctest of ideas about social justice, yet treat their nannies and housekeepers like slaves because it’s culturally acceptable in UAE. Disgusting. I can’t believe the West continues to slobber all over Dubai like it’s the best thing since, uhm, ever.

Las Vegas is a contradiction in terms. Middle of the desert with elaborate water displays, etc. Lastly, the 1st DNC Debate was in LV with the lead Socialist Democrat railing against Casino Capitalism. (without mentioning Trumpster who emblazons his name over mega Casinos over LV and the Atlantic City rival on the east coast.)
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Lets not get distracted by the glitz, instead refocus on the core of the OP. A woman visiting the site was raped, and when reporting it, was charged with violating her marriage vows, and lying. the city is irrelevant.

No need to go to Dubai or to Las Vegas to experience that kind of human depravity. Here in WA we’re deluged with “feel good” ads from all of the native American casinos depicting every customer as a happy-go-lucky WINNER. After touring one of those casinos during a recent conference at the adjacent resort/hotel, I couldn’t get out of there fast enough. What a sad, angry bunch of losers, drinks at their elbows, pouring dollar after dollar into the casino’s coffers. Not a smile in the place. Sad. Pathetic.

The thing that struck me about LV, having driven through there last year for the first time, was just how utterly squalid the city is once you get off the Strip. Every city has its bad parts, but it was shocking just how much of LV seemed to be in that condition.

Dubai looked interesting from the air and made me wish I’d arranged a day’s layover, but getting off the plane to find a 30C temperature at 7.30am soon changed my mind. No wonder people — people with enough money, anyway — choose to spend so much of their time inside massive air-conditioned malls.

The thing that struck me about LV, having driven through there last year for the first time, was just how utterly squalid the city is once you get off the Strip.

same with DC. outside of “The Mall area”, the rest is essentially ghetto. No wonder all the Government staff employees live on the Beltway instead of the city. I imagine the city is populated by the custodian staff of the buildings in white marble of the city. (The Senators and Congressmen don’t live in Dc, just visit for a few months to block all the legislation that is proposed by the ~~~ POTUS).
Worse than LV. While LV grew out of tourism hucksters, DC was built deliberately as a a temprary gathering spot for legislators who are supposed to stay home to “stay in touch” with the people they represent…. yet seems they all represent a single pair of Koch brothers, everybody else be damned.
oops. sorry for the apparent derail.

@22: Well, then I guess perhaps Dubai isn’t totally without redeeming qualities. Although I must confess, I struggle to imagine what fraction of art, music and performing arts would be legal under the strict Sharia modesty laws. Is that opera house going to be a real opera house, or is it going to be kind of like a North Korean-style Potemkin village thing?

I was recently in LV for ten days while the hubby attended two back-to-back conferences for work.
I think that the city is also making a lot of money from hosting conventions, and the hotels are very well set up for them.
LV is also well set up for disabled people. I know that this is to make it easier for the little old people to fork over money to the casinos, but I took advantage of it. I never spent one penny in any machine or on any other form of gambling during the entire ten days. However, I did rent a scooter and had fun exploring the strip while the hubby was in meetings.
I took in a show, shopped, got a massage (two!) and ate at some fine restaurants.
As someone else mentioned, if one just accepts the kitsch, allows for spending some money, and relaxes into having a good time, LV can be fun.
We are planning to try to attend the 50th anniversary Star Trek convention next year. Now that will be fun!

It’s not all a wasteland. I found the sites showing some of early history of Dubai interesting as well as the pre-tourism architecture. Walking among the trading ships on the waterfront was neat as well – I so rarely see trading dhows on the Chattahoochee. Other than that, not so much that didn’t offend either the sense of taste or of basic morality.

The thing that struck me about LV, having driven through there last year for the first time, was just how utterly squalid the city is once you get off the Strip.

I used to visit LV quite often, and I have never got this impression. True that the strip is about the only really flashy area, but the rest is not really squalid, it just looks like regular run-of-the mill desert suburbia. I’m sure there’s bad neighborhoods everywhere that’s big enough, but I never got that impression from LV. It’s just not that culturally rich a city, and can be dull if you’re not into the flashy stuff, but “squalid” is certainly not a word I would use.

I was actually more impressed by how squalid the strip was. Sure, it’s flashy, but everything’s made to impress, not to function well or last. It’s clearly just junk. Really very similar to what Trump builds. And another reason I wouldn’t want to visit Dubai or spend more time than absolutely necessary in LV: I’m not sure the buildings won’t fall down because the contractors used substandard equipment and no one bothered to inspect it.

The US does have a vibrant cultural scene. A variety of art, incredible museums, great universities, libraries, even opera — we do have it! Dubai, not so much.

I find that pretty racist. You know, never having been there but being very sure that those people don’t have anything that remotely resembles culture. An ugly sentiment. I’ll give you the art stuff. And landscapes are pretty as well. But I wouldn’t want to risk getting shot in the street any more than I’d want to risk getting jailed for being raped. Sure, to you living there it’s different, but I guess people in Dubai feel similar about their country…

Also — not denying that there are serious problems in this country that need addressing — our legal system is quite a bit better. Plus we have the First Amendment.

Yeah, that’s the thing. I can think of at least three cases in the USA from the top of my head that are just as appealing and horrible as the one of the woman jailed for being raped.

Well, sort of. That is, yes, we have the amendment, but there seem to be all these exceptions. Free speech…except no “fighting words”, no threats against government officials, even hate speech laws are a restriction on free speech of a sort. They may be reasonable restrictions, but they are restrictions. Freedom of the press? Reporters without borders put the US 49th in press freedom in 2015, lower than Burkina Faso or El Salvador. Freedom to assemble? Tell it to the people of Fergeson who were put under a curfew. And so on. The first amendment won’t protect you from everything.

I find that pretty racist. You know, never having been there but being very sure that those people don’t have anything that remotely resembles culture. An ugly sentiment.

Well, I find that pretty interesting. In your previous comment, you dismissed a country of 300 million — a country which consists of a tapestry of races and ethnicities — as a hellhole which must always be characterized as at least as bad or worse as any other country in the world. And you complain about racism? I mean, sure, inasmuch as the US is racially and ethnically heterogenous, I guess you are an equal-opportunity hater and not

technically

a racist, but still, your knee-jerk reaction of “America the Horrible” in response to a criticism of another country makes your complaint of intolerance seem rather disingenuous.

As for the culture stuff, preliminarily, I’m pretty sure Dubai isn’t the entirety of the Arabian Peninsula. Everything I hear about how great it is, though, boils down to shopping, cheap servants and more shopping. Oh, and wacky rules about modesty which, I am sure, get pretty annoying once the novelty wears off. Sorry, but that makes the place sound pretty culturally barren. I would add that religious fundamentalism, which places severe constraints on artistic expression, has a stifling effect on culture; and creeping Wahhabism in that part of the world stifles and undermines Islamic art and music, too.

I’ll give you the art stuff. And landscapes are pretty as well. But I wouldn’t want to risk getting shot in the street any more than I’d want to risk getting jailed for being raped.

Uh-huh. Many places are violent and dangerous to tourists compared to, you know, Scandinavia. Mexico, many parts of Central and Latin America, central and eastern Europe. Do you feel the same about all those countries? Or would that be racist?

Sure, to you living there it’s different, but I guess people in Dubai feel similar about their country…

Right, but if people in Dubai feel good about their country, that’s fine. By contrast, if I feel the US isn’t literally the worst place in existence, that makes me a jingoistic right-wing flag-waiving wingnut, right?

Yeah, that’s the thing. I can think of at least three cases in the USA from the top of my head that are just as appealing and horrible as the one of the woman jailed for being raped.

You can find examples of injustice and miscarriages of justice in almost any legal system. They don’t balance out or cancel out injustices perpetrated by other legal systems as a matter of policy. But let’s establish a baseline. Are you saying it’s regular custom and practice in the US to jail women for being raped? And that the American legal system is as bad as or worse than the Emirati one, particularly in its treatment of women?

Speaking of governmental injustices, how do you feel about Russia? Is it a horrible country or what? And do you feel compelled to bring it up any time someone mentions something bad about some other country in a totally different part of the world?

@34 (dianne): Where does Reporters Without Borders put the UAE?

@Gileill: I can think of three off the top of my head limiting the rulings to those involving women’s sexual and reproductive rights.

So again, I’d like to establish a baseline. Are you saying the American legal system treats women just as badly as the UAE? Almost as badly? Worse? Or is your argument along the lines of “bad stuff happens here, therefore … something”?

I have visited a friend there twice, would never have gone there otherwise. Besides ‘The dark side to Dubai’ article, this is a fairly good introduction to those who are interested: Dubai city of gold. The word that assaults you everywhere you go is unsustainable, it’s like a giant middle finger to entropy.

Dubai has diversified into real estate, trade, financial services and tourism. The common factor being reliance on externalities, they don’t produce anything and import everything. If the external markets pop they go back to being a desert trading post. For me the most amazing example was in 2008 when the crisis hit, and many in the financial sector lost job, Dubai was littered with sports cars that had been abandoned by ex-pats fleeing.

Given that the premise of the post (which I agree with) is that Dubai is a pit, I’m not sure why you’re asking, but the answer is 120. So, I guess that’s great for the US: Its press is more free than that of a theocracy in a shopping mall. Woo hoo, we’re great?

Amused
let me try to get through that clusterfuck of which the blockquote is the least of the problems….

Well, I find that pretty interesting. In your previous comment, you dismissed a country of 300 million — a country which consists of a tapestry of races and ethnicities — as a hellhole which must always be characterized as at least as bad or worse as any other country in the world. And you complain about racism?

You know, given that the entirety of my first comment was that I feel about the USA like PZ feels about Dubai, this is quite telling… Yes, I dismissed the USA as a place I want to visit. A country doesn’t have to be all bad, the bad just has to outweigh the good and the scales just don’t tip for the USA. Or Dubai.
Second, you need to get a working definition what “racism” means. Saying that Dubai, a Middle Eastern country has no culture suqarely falls within the common definition of “racism” as it echoes the dominant colonialist discourse on everybody who isn’t white. Saying “I’m not interested in the most powerful country in the world because its culture is fucked up”, not so much. It is also funny that the thing that gets criticised about Dubai’s culture is actually pretty American. Shopping malls.

a racist, but still, your knee-jerk reaction of “America the Horrible” in response to a criticism of another country makes your complaint of intolerance seem rather disingenuous.

Your putting words into my mouth in a knee jerk reaction to somebody daring not to love the USA is rather telling.

Uh-huh. Many places are violent and dangerous to tourists compared to, you know, Scandinavia. Mexico, many parts of Central and Latin America, central and eastern Europe.

Wait, central Europe is more dangerous than Scandinavia? Well, I’ve been to much of central Europe, some eastern Europe, some Scandinavia, some countries in Latin America*. I felt very unsafe in one of them. I went there for a congress. I would not repeat it.
Again, you’re completely ignoring the global and cultural power differences. A main component of, you know, racism.

*PS Latin America includes Central and South America

Right, but if people in Dubai feel good about their country, that’s fine. By contrast, if I feel the US isn’t literally the worst place in existence, that makes me a jingoistic right-wing flag-waiving wingnut, right?

That’s your words. Entirely. There’s nothing in my comments that even remotely suggests this. I don’t think the USA is the worst country on earth in terms of interior affairs either. Are you happy now? Yes, there are worse places on earth to live in than the USA. Here, I said it before your blood pressure shoots through the roof.

You can find examples of injustice and miscarriages of justice in almost any legal system. They don’t balance out or cancel out injustices perpetrated by other legal systems as a matter of policy.

No, evil never balances out other evil. But I am sorry if I gave the impression that those cases are bugs. THEy are features.

Are you saying it’s regular custom and practice in the US to jail women for being raped? And that the American legal system is as bad as or worse than the Emirati one, particularly in its treatment of women?

No, you don’t regularly jail women for being raped. You don’t treat them well either. Neither does the rest of the world. But as a matter of policy you jail women for stillbirths if they consumed drugs during pregnancy even though this had no effect on the outcome of the pregnancy. You jail abused women for “failing to protect their children” from an abuser for longer than you jail the abuser. You force court mandated C-sections on unwilling women, even if you kill them. That’S just some women specific points and doesn’T even touch on matters like exectuting people in general, executing people for crimes they did not commit, trying children as adults, something that dispoportionally affects minority youths, and so on. Those are not bug. Those are not miscarriages. Those are features. But congratulations, Saudi Arabia is worse than you.

Speaking of governmental injustices, how do you feel about Russia? Is it a horrible country or what? And do you feel compelled to bring it up any time someone mentions something bad about some other country in a totally different part of the world?

Another country I have zero interest in visiting. If I frequented a Russian blog where a Russian blogger linked some really aweful article which paints a particular country as much worse than the rest of the world partly because of something as horrible as its climate and partly by cherry-picking examples you can find about probably all countries in the world by somebody who has never been there and who also sneers at all those horrible uneducated probably not Ivy-Oxbridge people who might like shopping, I would probably point out that this is not really the pinacle of journalism. If I thereby tread on thet oes of people who explode whenever you mention that their country might not be the greatest, and I guess there are as many of those in Russia as there are in the USA, all the better.

That’S just some women specific points and doesn’T even touch on matters like exectuting people in general, executing people for crimes they did not commit, trying children as adults, something that dispoportionally affects minority youths, and so on.

we once had dinner in a Iranian restaurant situated in a shopping mall right next to a huge glass wall looking down on… a real ski piste, with real snow. Inside a shopping center in Dubai, that is. Jawdropping waste of money; intriguing but disgusting.

On a business trip, I stayed in the Kempinsky hotel attached to that mall (Mall of the Emirates), in a room overlooking the roof of said indoor ski slope. On the way back from going for snacks to the immense Carrefour hypermarket that is also attached to the mall, some entitled young thug sheikh and his friends shoved me off an escalator landing so they could get on first, and I sprained my ankle. (What, I’m just a woman.) My physical therapy was walking the length of the (world’s largest themed mall) Ibn Battuta Mall, an experience I put in the same class as going to literal Disneyland. On the far end, my colleague and I ate sushi. Oh, Dubai, you’re a gypsy wagon with the wheels always nearly, but not quite, falling off.

So, I guess that’s great for the US: Its press is more free than that of a theocracy in a shopping mall. Woo hoo, we’re great?

No, but the press here isn’t just better off than that of a theocracy in a shopping mall. We also rank better than Japan. And Italy. Do you think those countries are horrible? Or would you sweepingly characterise them as theocratic and lacking freedom of expression?

@ 40 (Giliell)

Second, you need to get a working definition what “racism” means. Saying that Dubai, a Middle Eastern country has no culture suqarely falls within the common definition of “racism” as it echoes the dominant colonialist discourse on everybody who isn’t white.

Preliminarily, Dubai is a city, not a country. To say that characterizing LV as culturally impoverished is acceptable, but the same thing can never be said (at least not in those words) about a city in the Middle East BECAUSE it’s in the Middle East strikes me as, frankly, more concerned with conventions than candor. Your comment is also a mischaracterization of mine. EVERY place in the world has a culture, obviously. That’s not what my original comment was referring to — and I don’t give a **** what it “echoes” to you.

Your putting words into my mouth in a knee jerk reaction to somebody daring not to love the USA is rather telling.

No, no, I get it. You hate us in a non-racist way, so it’s cool.

I felt very unsafe in one of them. I went there for a congress. I would not repeat it.

I have gone to countries considered unsafe when I strictly speaking didn’t have to, and would go again. Must be because I’m such a huge racist.

*PS Latin America includes Central and South America

Thank you for the geography lesson, person who thinks Dubai is a country. My redundancy notwithstanding, I thought Latin America also includes Mexico, which is in North America. But what do I know, I’m just a dumb Yankee.

That’s your words. Entirely. There’s nothing in my comments that even remotely suggests this. I don’t think the USA is the worst country on earth in terms of interior affairs either. Are you happy now? Yes, there are worse places on earth to live in than the USA. Here, I said it before your blood pressure shoots through the roof.

Thank you, I’m sure I would have died of a stroke without your charity. Do me a favor, worry about your bp, I’ll worry about mine. This “calm down” BS is really f-in condescending. But not racist! So I guess it’s fine.

No, you don’t regularly jail women for being raped. You don’t treat them well either. Neither does the rest of the world. But as a matter of policy you jail women for stillbirths if they consumed drugs during pregnancy even though this had no effect on the outcome of the pregnancy. You jail abused women for “failing to protect their children” from an abuser for longer than you jail the abuser. You force court mandated C-sections on unwilling women, even if you kill them. That’S just some women specific points and doesn’T even touch on matters like exectuting people in general, executing people for crimes they did not commit, trying children as adults, something that dispoportionally affects minority youths, and so on. Those are not bug. Those are not miscarriages. Those are features. But congratulations, Saudi Arabia is worse than you.

Not only Saudi Arabia, and I never said our justice system was perfect. I’m sure yours sucks too. Incidentally, could you give me a reference for that court-mandated c-section thing?

If I thereby tread on thet oes of people who explode whenever you mention that their country might not be the greatest,

Maybe they “explode”, as you put it, because of your tendency to mention how much you hate their country (non-racistly!) in a discussion that isn’t even ABOUT their country. Meanwhile, the article you are criticizing appeared in a UK publication and was written by a British journalist. So perhaps your virtuous non-racist hatred is a bit misplaced here; you should bloviate about how much you’d rather gnaw your legs off than go to the UK, instead.

To say that characterizing LV as culturally impoverished is acceptable, but the same thing can never be said (at least not in those words) about a city in the Middle East BECAUSE it’s in the Middle East

1. I have no idea what you mean by LV
2. Now you must QUOTE where I said some country is culturally impoverished. QUOTE ME. Because you’re making up shit wholesale.

I apologize for equating “emirate” as “country”. Of course Dubai is an absolute monarchy that forms part of a multi-state country, the UAE.

Incidentally, could you give me a reference for that court-mandated c-section thing?

AWww, that was the nicest way you could call me a liar without doing so. Here you go:

Maybe they “explode”, as you put it, because of your tendency to mention how much you hate their country (non-racistly!) in a discussion that isn’t even ABOUT their country.

You’re the one who started the flag waving because you couldn’t stand someone saying they felt about the U.S. the way PZ feels about Dubai. There’s a fucktonne of bad about the U.S., and yes, I’m USian. For the record, I was really taken aback by your comment of Dubai having zero culture – that didn’t smack of racism and smug exceptionalism, it screamed it.

If you’re in the US and poor, worrying about it may be all you can do. But it’s worse in other countries. For example, I hear there’s a city in Afghanistan that now has no hospitals capable of taking trauma cases at all.

We also rank better than Japan. And Italy. Do you think those countries are horrible? Or would you sweepingly characterise them as theocratic and lacking freedom of expression?

Well, I’d probably think that a Japanese or Italian person saying that freedom of the press was one of the extraordinarily good points of their country to be a little out of touch with reality. Also, the US is an oligarchy, not a theocracy.

1. I have no idea what you mean by LV
2. Now you must QUOTE where I said some country is culturally impoverished. QUOTE ME. Because you’re making up shit wholesale.

Quote me where I said Dubai has no culture, in those words.

I apologize for equating “emirate” as “country”. Of course Dubai is an absolute monarchy that forms part of a multi-state country, the UAE.

Looked that up, didn’t you? No need to apologize to me; but if you choose to nitpick and lecture me on what “Latin America” is, perhaps you should make sure your own statements about geography are beyond reproach.

Incidentally, could you give me a reference for that court-mandated c-section thing?

AWww, that was the nicest way you could call me a liar without doing so. Here you go:
ACLU summary
National Advocates for Pregnant Women

No, what you have here is a reading comprehension fail by YOU. I didn’t challenge you on any of the other claims you made about the mistreatment of women in the US, because I knew them to be true. I specifically asked about that one, because I had never heard about it before. So thanks for the links.

The US does have a vibrant cultural scene. A variety of art, incredible museums, great universities, libraries, even opera — we do have it! Dubai, not so much.

I guess I’ll let that stand on its own…

Which part of that says Dubai — a city, not a country or a region — has NO culture?

Oh, btw, quote where I use the word “hate” in reference to the USA or admit that you’re either lying or sucking at reading comprehension.

Quote where I said Dubai has no culture.

@Caine:

You’re the one who started the flag waving because you couldn’t stand someone saying they felt about the U.S. the way PZ feels about Dubai.

I can’t stand it? I can stand it, believe me, and in fact, I’ve had to stand a lot worse than that over the course of my life. Responding to it negatively isn’t an equivalent of being unable to “stand it”. Be that as it may, I didn’t bring this country into a discussion about something else.

There’s a fucktonne of bad about the U.S., and yes, I’m USian.

I never said otherwise, but that’s true of most countries, including our supposed betters. In fact, having lived in one of those “betters” that has a huge and mostly unacknowledged problem with racism, I’d say reflexively pointing and smugly saying “well, America sucks bad, maybe evenworse!” whenever anyone mention problems anywhere else is a way to ignore, whitewash and trivialize home-grown ills.

For the record, I was really taken aback by your comment of Dubai having zero culture – that didn’t smack of racism and smug exceptionalism, it screamed it.

Where did I say Dubai has “zero” culture? Also, again, keep mind, Dubai is a CITY. In a nation state whose citizens are economically privileged to a ridiculous degree. So your accusation of racism is really pulled by the hair here.

Also, “smug exceptionalism”, really? What do you think you know about me? Do you realize I’m an immigrant? That I spent more than a third of my life living (living, not visiting for tourism) abroad? And that I come from a poor and multicultural background? But what of that, you clearly had me pegged as a monolingual dudebro from a wealthy suburb, no doubt.

If you’re in the US and poor, worrying about it may be all you can do. But it’s worse in other countries. For example, I hear there’s a city in Afghanistan that now has no hospitals capable of taking trauma cases at all.

That’s true. I sure hope those HTN-afflicted poor and Afghan trauma cases realize their usefulness as convenient talking points for the holier-than-though.

Well, I’d probably think that a Japanese or Italian person saying that freedom of the press was one of the extraordinarily good points of their country to be a little out of touch with reality.

Really? What would? We know it can’t be culture, because racism.

But hey, maybe my perspective is all warped by having grown up in a totalitarian state with virtually no freedom of expression whatsoever, that’s why I still can’t stop marvelling at Americans who simultaneously criticize the government and the rich and powerful in the strongest possible terms, and lament, alas, the lack of freedom of speech in this country.

1. I have no idea what you mean by LV
2. Now you must QUOTE where I said some country is culturally impoverished. QUOTE ME. Because you’re making up shit wholesale.

Quote me where I said Dubai has no culture, in those words.

I take that as “I can’t therefore I’m trying to play “no, you!”
And no, you did not use those words. You first made a list of things that you consider to make up a “cultural scene”, a pretty western list as it stands, and then falsely claimed that Dubai didn’t have those things, i.e. Dubai didn’t have a cultural scene.

Looked that up, didn’t you? No need to apologize to me; but if you choose to nitpick and lecture me on what “Latin America” is, perhaps you should make sure your own statements about geography are beyond reproach.

Has the concept of different native languages ever occurred to you? And different languages describe the world differently. By operating within multiple languages it sometimes happens that you use a word that has a slightly different meaning in one language with the false meaning in another one. Sue me. But please hand in documents in my native language at a level that at least matches my proficiency in English.

Quote where I said Dubai has no culture.

You’Re trying this again. How old are you, five? I already explained above.

I can’t stand it? I can stand it, believe me, and in fact, I’ve had to stand a lot worse than that over the course of my life. Responding to it negatively isn’t an equivalent of being unable to “stand it”. Be that as it may, I didn’t bring this country into a discussion about something else.

Fun fact, neither did I. A lot of people who are very much not me were ranting about Las Vegas already. Interestingly you didn’t jump at them. Yet you blame me for their negative comments about Las Vegas (so that’s LV!) as well.

yeah, but it still doesn’t explain how that’s somehow my fault as well ….

I’m pretty sure you should not have had the nerve to express overall negativity towards the shiny might of U.S.A.! U.S.A! Rah!, what with you not actually being a citizen of the shiny mighty fortress and all that crap. Or something.

No, you don’t regularly jail women for being raped. You don’t treat them well either. Neither does the rest of the world. But as a matter of policy you jail women for stillbirths if they consumed drugs during pregnancy even though this had no effect on the outcome of the pregnancy. You jail abused women for “failing to protect their children” from an abuser for longer than you jail the abuser. You force court mandated C-sections on unwilling women, even if you kill them.

And let’s not forget laws requiring mandatory transvaginal ultrasound exams before a woman can receive abortion services in some US states, even where her health and very life my be in peril if she doesn’t have a abortion. That amounts to state sanctioned sexual assault – the forced penetration of a woman’s sex organs at the insistence of the law for the flimsiest of medical reasons. In practice, this is about punishing women for having sex, like so many otehr laws restricting abortion access in the US.

Where Dubai imprisons women for being raped, and the US uses the law to compel women to undergo sexual assault mandated by the state, both countries come out of it pretty badly.

Dubai may not have Morals Squads roaming the streets as in Saudi Arabia but it is still a very conservative state with a very different culture. For over 20 years now the elite have been thinking of ways to make more money in part to have sources of income other than oil and this is why we have the obscene resorts and gargantuan reclamation projects around the sea. Naturally the common people in Arabia aren’t welcome – only the wealthy locals and wealthy foreigners. But even the shopping places for common folk would have the occasional oddity to attract people and for people who’ve lived in the region all their lives it’s something new and bizarre to gawk at and something to laugh at – foreigners however might think it’s only tacky and not enjoy it as much as the locals do. Many locals want various things to change for the better but unfortunately religion still has its iron grip. Dubai isn’t a place to avoid, but like anywhere else on the planet, visitors should have an idea of the local culture and laws and take care where appropriate. Unfortunately for women it’s definitely not a good place to be without a constant male escort regardless of whether the women are local or foreigners.

Nevada is one of the few places in USA that I actually would be interested in visiting — red rock canyon, zion national park (although I think that might be Utah?) and the valley of fire, at least. The rest of the USA, not so much.
In Dubai I’d love to see the Bastakiya quarter, but really, much like the USA, there is not that much appeal, especially as a woman travelling alone.

Incidentally, I’m going to start saving for a holiday again (I bought a house a couple of weeks ago, so time to start saving again!) where would people recommend that is both woman friendly, and gay friendly?

It is in Utah, but relatively near to Nevada (we flew into LV to get there). It’s also rather overcrowded IMHO. It’s definitely worth a look, but some of the nearby state parks are less crowded and also quite interesting. That whole area is beautiful, once you get out of LV, which is, again IMHO, a bit of a pit.

I sure hope those HTN-afflicted poor and Afghan trauma cases realize their usefulness as convenient talking points for the holier-than-though.

I can’t decide whether to be insulted or laugh wildly, but since we’re talking BP maybe I’ll go with the latter. (Not but that one’s BP is probably more related to one’s renin-angiotensin processing ability than to any emotional state, at least one’s chronic BP.)

Amazed, dear, I’m an internist*. I’ve spent hours with patients, insurance, pharmacies, and even drug companies trying to get the patients a hypertensive medication that was both affordable to them and didn’t wreck their lives with side effects. I don’t work in places that don’t take Medicaid, with the exception of a few years at the VA, which is one of the limited single payer systems in the US. I am currently in the middle of a research project studying the effects of racism, poverty, and poor insurance on cancer outcomes. I decline to take your advice to stop talking about the issue.

I think the point about the city in Afghanistan may have flown over your head as well. I was referring to Kunduz. Perhaps you know why there is no hospital capable of dealing with trauma in Kunduz? Again, I decline to take your advice to stop talking about it, at least until restitution has been made. Which may mean never.

So what do you do to help poor people get medical care, o brav US-American?