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Funny thing is - she doesn't know how to react when they are approached by lecherous Battlers (as shown in the first ep) so they can just be fakes. Or rather - they are *definitely* fakes as Lion doesn't have them.

Imo - Lion is the ultimate reference to the real shkanon proportions. She/he never had to hide anything so we can safely bet that it is what the creature looks like.

Well, this is neither a double nor twins. It's one person playing two separate parts. Yeah, it's improbable that two completely different people would look alike, but this is one person dressing up as two parts. Anyone in the world can do that, though not everyone could pull it off as a member of the opposite sex.

The point here is that incredible powers of disguise are not needed. Why does everyone on the island seem to believe that Kanon and Shannon are different people? It's not because they look different. On the contrary, people call them siblings several times even though they claim not to be. And Kanon is often described as a slender boy, who, incidentally, rarely ever talks to anyone or interacts with anyone.

Of course, I'm not saying "therefore they must be the same person". That would be insane. I'm just saying that, given this information, and the fact that Battler never sees them together in any question arc, this possibility is fair game. If evidence elsewhere supports this conclusion, then we should be able to accept it.

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"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers

The motive however wasn't outright stated until the last episode. But it was heavily implied.

That's exactly my point. We are shown exactly how Kyrie kills everyone with the help of her husband, just like how we were shown how Higurashi's culprit killed everyone. Nothing about what Kyrie did requires impossible tools or circumstances. The reason I've seen for people's objections isn't because the WAY Kyrie did things was impossible, they object because they have some strange belief that it's out of character for her to do so.

We have also learned things about her family, both in the question arcs and chiru that could easily be spun into a motive that makes perfect sense.

Well, THAT, and also because it's completely stupidly outrageously over the top, doesn't fit any of the rules we seem to have been supposed to be forming (lol first twilight is fake, beato's heart, yadda yadda), and...well...it lines up WAY too much with Bernkastel's interests and Ange's worst nightmares. It's very clearly designed to tear up Ange as much as humanly possible.

And since we were ALREADY SHOWN that the Witch characters can present fictional realities and make Red statements about those Kakera, well....Bern's interrupted red becomes even less credible.

I'd really like to see how someone can make a motive for Kyrie and Rudolf that involves the two of them deciding they need to kill absolutely everyone in the family in unnecessarily brutal ways despite being consistently characterized as willing to split the gold so long as they get their share. We also have the problem of Rudolf and Kyrie SUDDENLY HATING BATTLER AND ANGE FOR NO REASON LOL FUCK THOSE REDHEADED GINGERS MIRITE?

Oh, and Rudolf and Kyrie almost always die in the very beginning, complete with Red confirmation. So basically it's "Everything you've read is a lie, here's the answer that wasn't foreshadowed whatsoever and contradicts everything you were taught to build off of."

Anyone who finds that a satisfying answer isn't a true Mystery fan. It is by no means Fair Play.

No one was ever supposed to see the actual truth. Everything that Beatrice wrote pointed to her as the culprit, so what happened in "reality" doesn't matter when it comes to solving Beatrice's heart.

The Tea Party didn't exist for Ange's sake. She was a side note at best. If it was just about hurting her there was no need for Lion to be there either, or for the Tea Party to continue after she reburgered herself.

That's exactly my point. We are shown exactly how Kyrie kills everyone with the help of her husband, just like how we were shown how Higurashi's culprit killed everyone. Nothing about what Kyrie did requires impossible tools or circumstances. The reason I've seen for people's objections isn't because the WAY Kyrie did things was impossible, they object because they have some strange belief that it's out of character for her to do so.

We have also learned things about her family, both in the question arcs and chiru that could easily be spun into a motive that makes perfect sense.

Musouka I said quite clearly what's the problem here, why is that you keep ignoring the blatant huge evidence?

In Higurashi there wasn't anyone who questioned what was presented. In Umineko you have not one but two characters, two MAIN characters no less that claim that Bern's story was just a huge lie.

That's the big problem here. If I hadn't see a main character like Will or Battler saying the complete opposite of what Bern has shown I would have to admit the same things that you are giving for granted. But that fact that you keep considering irrelevant actually changes everything in my opinion.

At any rate you can't really compare Higurashi and Umineko because of this fact. And this is something you can't argue against, you can say that in your opinion what Will and Battler say in the end is irrelevant, but you can't prove it in any way.

I'm using the same logic that I used at the end of EP1. I knew that "magic" was a lie simply because the good guy said it was a lie and the bad guy said it was the truth. it's really that simple.
There was really no other real logic that you could use there. Every argument that Battler used was something that work in the real world, but definitely not inside a novel. And after Higurashi how could someone say that "magic definitely can't exist in this story"?

I think that the real reason you are the only one that I know of that believe the tea party is the truth, is because no one wants to believe that Bern is right.

Except both of those characters have emotional reasons for doing so. One is trying to save the life of his friend and partner by insisting the situation is "unfair" (he loses). The other is saying that because she doesn't want to believe it or, alternately, to comfort a crying child (and he also doesn't deny it, just says it isn't the whole story).

And Bern has also strong reasons to lie and she tried to frame the wrong person already. So your point is moot.

Conversely there are no proofs that Will would try to deny a truth. The evidence in our possession show that Will didn't prevent Lion from learning a truth that was absolutely painful for him/her. So the idea that he would do that is merely and completely speculative.

And Bern has also strong reasons to lie and she tried to frame the wrong person already. So your point is moot.

What are those strong reasons? You do realize she was there to explicitly dig out the truth for Featherinne, right? And her taunts to Clair about her motivation for trying to "cover this up" don't make sense if "this" is just Bern's lie. Or are you saying Clair wrote the message bottles to cover up Bern's lies?

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Conversely there are no proofs that Will would try to deny a truth. The evidence in our possession show that Will didn't prevent Lion from learning a truth that was absolutely painful for him/her. So the idea that he would do that is merely and completely speculative.

It's not a matter of a painful truth, it's a matter of a deadly truth. Lion was going to die without Will's intervention. Will was fighting the only way he knew how, but it was pretty obvious both he and Bern knew he was going to lose.

Featherinne's concept of "truth" is a little far off, if you ask me. The way I see it Featherinne already decided which was the "truth" and Bern's purpose was only to write a story that would paint the "truth" that Featherinne wanted to see.
That's Bern's reason. She isn't someone who actually cares about the real truth and she wasn't working for someone who actually cared about the real truth.

As for the "deadly" truth, oh that's ridiculous, considering that Will is the one who killed Clair.

Ange independently confirmed that Featherinne was on the right track as far as her truth goes. Featherinne is a bitch, but there's no reason to think she was wrong or that she didn't want the real truth. Especially since she made it clear the real truth is what she wanted from Bern, no monkey business.

No one was ever supposed to see the actual truth. Everything that Beatrice wrote pointed to her as the culprit, so what happened in "reality" doesn't matter when it comes to solving Beatrice's heart.

And "My only wish is for you to find, and reveal, the truth" means...?

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The Tea Party didn't exist for Ange's sake. She was a side note at best. If it was just about hurting her there was no need for Lion to be there either, or for the Tea Party to continue after she reburgered herself.

Not entirely, Lion and Will were also getting trolled. But Bern not only brought in Ange, but FORCED HER TO WATCH.

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What are those strong reasons? You do realize she was there to explicitly dig out the truth for Featherinne, right? And her taunts to Clair about her motivation for trying to "cover this up" don't make sense if "this" is just Bern's lie. Or are you saying Clair wrote the message bottles to cover up Bern's lies?

"Even though victory has been assured by the human side, it seems she is unable to accept it. It seems she doesn't so much care about victory, but how brutal of an end can be reached."

Bern doesn't give a shit about the actual truth. She just wants to destroy Beatrice's fantasy world and reveal as disgusting and painful a "truth" as possible. It's right there in the TIPS and her own dialog.

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Ange independently confirmed that Featherinne was on the right track as far as her truth goes.

She only said this after reading EP6, to be fair.

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Featherinne is a bitch, but there's no reason to think she was wrong or that she didn't want the real truth. Especially since she made it clear the real truth is what she wanted from Bern, no monkey business.

Yea, and Lambdadelta was "Bern's enemy" who wanted to trap her forever. Look how that turned out.

I still think that the truth behind Kyrie as a culprit is that she was just as likely to kill everyone as the other adults. The acceptance Battler has for it is that his parents could have done this, but so could all the other adults on the island.

I'd really like to see how someone can make a motive for Kyrie and Rudolf that involves the two of them deciding they need to kill absolutely everyone in the family in unnecessarily brutal ways despite being consistently characterized as willing to split the gold so long as they get their share. We also have the problem of Rudolf and Kyrie SUDDENLY HATING BATTLER AND ANGE FOR NO REASON LOL FUCK THOSE REDHEADED GINGERS MIRITE?

Oh, and Rudolf and Kyrie almost always die in the very beginning, complete with Red confirmation. So basically it's "Everything you've read is a lie, here's the answer that wasn't foreshadowed whatsoever and contradicts everything you were taught to build off of."

Anyone who finds that a satisfying answer isn't a true Mystery fan. It is by no means Fair Play.

First, Kyrie has always had disdain for Battler. She said so in EP 3 while telling Leviathan about her envy. He reminds her of Asumu in too many ways and she's grown to resent him for it.

As for Ange, there's a very good chance Kyrie was just lying about it. She knew that Eva was going to kill her and she likely didn't want to try and live because Rudolf was dead now. That's why she badmouthed Ange - that way Eva would take sympathy on her and spare Ange of abuse and the truth. Kyrie dies with a smile because of this fact.

You're taking it as it can be the only conclusion. As I noted in the EP 7 thread it could be one of the possible solutions.

And as a side note for the last one, Umineko is not a traditional mystery. Especially with how we find out the secret to all the closed rooms near the ending of EP 7's main story before the tea parties.

First, Kyrie has always had disdain for Battler. She said so in EP 3 while telling Leviathan about her envy. He reminds her of Asumu in too many ways and she's grown to resent him for it.

Maybe, but enough to kill him? Then there's the Rudolf thing. Rudolf very clearly loves Battler a lot.

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As for Ange, there's a very good chance Kyrie was just lying about it. She knew that Eva was going to kill her and she likely didn't want to try and live because Rudolf was dead now. That's why she badmouthed Ange - that way Eva would take sympathy on her and spare Ange of abuse and the truth. Kyrie dies with a smile because of this fact.

Maybe it'd be believable if Kyrie didn't decide to punch Jessica to death with her bare fists instead of just shooting her. With that, she already left her characterization as a "ruthless, but cold and rational" person who doesn't waste efficiency.

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You're taking it as it can be the only conclusion. As I noted in the EP 7 thread it could be one of the possible solutions.

That's how I took it. It's a possible kakera, like Lion existing. I'm just not accepting it as the true reality of "what really happened."

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And as a side note for the last one, Umineko is not a traditional mystery. Especially with how we find out the secret to all the closed rooms near the ending of EP 7's main story before the tea parties.

I'm aware. Even if not traditional, though, Umineko is being billed as Fair Play. Welp...

As I've said before, if EP7 is the absolute truth in terms of the game as a mystery then there is no point in reading EP8. EP7 is the ending Bern and AuAu wanted, EP6 is the ending Battler and Beatrice wanted. EP8 will probably be the ending we as individuals would want (probably)

Ange independently confirmed that Featherinne was on the right track as far as her truth goes. Featherinne is a bitch, but there's no reason to think she was wrong or that she didn't want the real truth. Especially since she made it clear the real truth is what she wanted from Bern, no monkey business.

Frankly Musouka if I wanted to know the truth the last person I'd ask to show it would be someone who already tried to pass her bulls for the truth.

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but lately I'm wondering about Jessica in relation to Yasu, though I admit my ideas are pretty hazy.

Given that Yasu was her classmate and (more or less) her confident/playmate, is it possible that Gaap-Beatrice was Jessica (or somehow connected to her)? Is there any evidence for Jessica being a direct or indirect accomplice to Yasu-Beatrice? Perhaps Kanon could be more a collaborative fiction of sorts created between Yasu and Jessica?

I haven't quite made this notion fit in with my other thoughts and theories on Umineko, but I'm finding it hard to escape the thought right now that given the amount of time Yasu/Shkannon would have spent with Jessica that she's more involved in this affair than is being said. Perhaps even her "2 AM" story isn't telling all there is?

And this does add another confidant for Yasu to pull things off with outside the non-Yasu servants.

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Maybe, but enough to kill him? Then there's the Rudolf thing. Rudolf very clearly loves Battler a lot.

This was discussed in the tea party. Kyrie said that Battler wasn't her son, so she didn't care, but she offered Rudolf a chance to convince Battler that they're doing a good thing for the sake of their side of the family. Rudolf doesn't get a chance to meet with him because Eva pops out and kills him.

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Maybe it'd be believable if Kyrie didn't decide to punch Jessica to death with her bare fists instead of just shooting her. With that, she already left her characterization as a "ruthless, but cold and rational" person who doesn't waste efficiency.

Kyrie shot Eva near point blank and the latter didn't die. She likely did so on purpose, to miss a lethal shot from such a close range. I noticed that she shot Jessica from just about the same distance, so it could have been insurance.[/QUOTE]

Given that Yasu was her classmate and (more or less) her confident/playmate, is it possible that Gaap-Beatrice was Jessica (or somehow connected to her)? Is there any evidence for Jessica being a direct or indirect accomplice to Yasu-Beatrice? Perhaps Kanon could be more a collaborative fiction of sorts created between Yasu and Jessica?

I'm guessing you haven't read the patch or anything. Gaap is, in her entirety, absolutely imaginary, not based on any humans.

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Kyrie shot Eva near point blank and the latter didn't die. She likely did so on purpose, to miss a lethal shot from such a close range. I noticed that she shot Jessica from just about the same distance, so it could have been insurance.

Alright, so Kyrie's behavior is now not even consist in the same scene, much less with the rest of the series. Thanks, I can now completely disregard it.