I still think trusting Joe Nathan, one of the best closers of all time (seriously, study it out) to throw the 8th would have been better. Then you don't have to worry about the Yankee fans in the stadium being oddly quiet because they expected Mariano in the 9th.

It wasn't about "trusting" Joe Nathan or anything, quite the opposite. If Nathan came in the 8th and blew the lead, there would be no guarantee there would be a bottom of the 9th for Rivera to come in to.

Yeah, the NL offense was non-existant, but three runs is hardly insurmountable.

LessO2:It wasn't about "trusting" Joe Nathan or anything, quite the opposite. If Nathan came in the 8th and blew the lead, there would be no guarantee there would be a bottom of the 9th for Rivera to come in to.

Yeah, the NL offense was non-existant, but three runs is hardly insurmountable.

Is it that hard to figure out?

Yeah, it's not like Nathan would have been coming in facing All-stars who can hit or anything. There's no way they could get 3 runs, right? And if he did get in trouble, it'd be just as epic to see Rivera come in for 1 out with the bases loaded and chance him TAKING THE LOSS if he gives up a base hit.

Haters are stupid, it was the right move, it was an exhibition game and he got his moment. Enjoy it.

I particularly enjoyed the way Fox interviewed Rivera during the top of the 9th, with Fielder on third and no outs, because interviewing players and coaches during game play humanizes the game, which is what viewers want. And Mariano was so human, so eloquent, it was almost poetry. My favorite part of baseball broadcasts is when they interview the manager or one of the coaches during the game, (I don't think you are actually allowed to interview players during a game, why that is I can't imagine) so the Rivera interview was a real treat.The only thing better than an in-game interview is when they turn the camera on someone in the crowd, usually an endearing little child, eating or just being adorable. Children are our future, don't you think? Or when they show one of the team's mascots jumping around on top of the dugout (an experience that's even better in person - that's why those seats are so expensive). You have to hand it to Fox for figuring it all out and getting it right.

First, Leyland didn't want to run the risk of the NL taking the lead and not coming to bat in the bottom of the ninth, meaning Rivera would have never left the bullpen.

Smart move by Leyland -- I wonder why managers don't commit their best relievers earlier, i.e. make sure they even get to a save situation first, instead of saving somebody like Mariano for the ninth while entrusting your seventh or eighth inning to some scrub who couldn't cut it starting. Is it really so much worse to lose a game in the ninth instead of the seventh?

Arkanaut:First, Leyland didn't want to run the risk of the NL taking the lead and not coming to bat in the bottom of the ninth, meaning Rivera would have never left the bullpen.

Smart move by Leyland -- I wonder why managers don't commit their best relievers earlier, i.e. make sure they even get to a save situation first, instead of saving somebody like Mariano for the ninth while entrusting your seventh or eighth inning to some scrub who couldn't cut it starting. Is it really so much worse to lose a game in the ninth instead of the seventh?

Do you want an actual answer to this question? Because I can provide one, but it will be long and somewhat ranty.

Arkanaut:First, Leyland didn't want to run the risk of the NL taking the lead and not coming to bat in the bottom of the ninth, meaning Rivera would have never left the bullpen.

Smart move by Leyland -- I wonder why managers don't commit their best relievers earlier, i.e. make sure they even get to a save situation first, instead of saving somebody like Mariano for the ninth while entrusting your seventh or eighth inning to some scrub who couldn't cut it starting. Is it really so much worse to lose a game in the ninth instead of the seventh?

I think gibbons (who helped leyland with this game) already uses this strategy in Toronto. At least when it comes to the ALLSTAR RELIEVERS Cecil and delabar. Casey isn't exactly bad either.

DeWayne Mann:Arkanaut: First, Leyland didn't want to run the risk of the NL taking the lead and not coming to bat in the bottom of the ninth, meaning Rivera would have never left the bullpen.

Smart move by Leyland -- I wonder why managers don't commit their best relievers earlier, i.e. make sure they even get to a save situation first, instead of saving somebody like Mariano for the ninth while entrusting your seventh or eighth inning to some scrub who couldn't cut it starting. Is it really so much worse to lose a game in the ninth instead of the seventh?

Do you want an actual answer to this question? Because I can provide one, but it will be long and somewhat ranty.

DeWayne Mann:Arkanaut: First, Leyland didn't want to run the risk of the NL taking the lead and not coming to bat in the bottom of the ninth, meaning Rivera would have never left the bullpen.

Smart move by Leyland -- I wonder why managers don't commit their best relievers earlier, i.e. make sure they even get to a save situation first, instead of saving somebody like Mariano for the ninth while entrusting your seventh or eighth inning to some scrub who couldn't cut it starting. Is it really so much worse to lose a game in the ninth instead of the seventh?

Do you want an actual answer to this question? Because I can provide one, but it will be long and somewhat ranty.

Arkanaut:First, Leyland didn't want to run the risk of the NL taking the lead and not coming to bat in the bottom of the ninth, meaning Rivera would have never left the bullpen.

Smart move by Leyland -- I wonder why managers don't commit their best relievers earlier, i.e. make sure they even get to a save situation first, instead of saving somebody like Mariano for the ninth while entrusting your seventh or eighth inning to some scrub who couldn't cut it starting. Is it really so much worse to lose a game in the ninth instead of the seventh?

There are managers (and Leyland is absolutely one of them) who believe that there is a difference between pitching in the 8th inning and pitching in the 9th and that there are some guys who just can't handle the 9th.

barneyfifesbullet:That was cool, but hardly ever greatest ever level. Think about what you are saying. Unless, you are a Yankee fan. Then, understood.

Mo is one of the good guys. he deserves whatever he gets.

And Metallica is Dad Rock? Whatever. It's not our fault rock and roll pretty much died after 1992. Not much happening since then that lasts longer than a week.

Pretty much all of this, Mo is probably the best closer ever with just one pitch but this hardly the greatest baseball highlight ever. Hell it may not even be top 20 in Yankees history and I personally probably wouldn't put it in the top 100 of baseball highlights of all time. MLB has been around a long time and without even trying I could come up with a ton greater.

1. Anecdotal evidence. I don't particularly buy any of this stuff, but other people do, so I have to include it. Common beliefs among managers/players/certain analysts include

-It's harder to pitch in the 9th-It takes a certain type of personality to succeed in the 9th (usually related to the above), so not everyone can do it.-Pitchers perform better if they have a set role, particularly if that role is based on knowing they'll be coming in at a certain time. If one guy is the 8th inning guy, he knows he can start to get warm sometime in the 7th, rather than needing to be ready at a moment's notice

There's little to no evidence of any of the above being true, but that's the case with a lot of stuff in baseball.

2. Saves. The save was made an official stat in the late 60s (the blown save wasn't official until the 90s). A stat being made official isn't a HUGE deal, but it has a few effects. It raises the visibility of the stat (it gets put on HOF plaques, baseball cards, etc), meaning people are more likely to care about it. It also means that it can be used in arbitration (meaning that, given two identical players, the one with more saves will likely make more money in his career). Switching to a "relief ace" situation means no player on the team will accumulate a ton of saves (conversely, most relievers will get a handful of them). Wouldn't make the players happy, and managing the players themselves is a rather large chunk of the manager's job.

There's also a bit of a prestige issue here; no pitcher wants to be removed, but they certainly don't want to be pulled for a worse pitcher.

3. Managers tend to be slow to change, and generally prefer to avoid criticism and second guessing. If a manager were to implement a relief ace system, he would be criticized before ever playing a game. If it proceeded to work, it would most likely be treated as an aberration coontil it was successful a few more times). If it proceeded to fail (which is entirely possible, for reasons I'll mention later), it would be taken as a given and just more proof that the stuff I said in 1 is true. By playing it safe and doing what every other manager does, all of that stuff can be avoided.

(Note that this idea comes into play in several other areas: batting order, sac bunts, etc).

4. Related to 3, 9th inning losses are more memorable than earlier ones. If two teams had identical records, but one had a lot more 9th inning losses, I'd bet that manager would be more likely to be fired.

5. While using your best pitcher in the best situation is certainly smarter baseball, it's still a rather small matter. Best case scenario, you maybe win one or two more games a year. Worst case, you lose one or two more. While the best case is slightly more likely, it's by no means a surefire thing. Is it worth shaking up everything above for that?

6. Mariano Rivera. The history of the closer system dates back decades (like I said, the stat was made official in the 60s), but Mo was the first big name CLOSER. Other relievers were famous, but most of them either had successful starting careers as well (like Eck) or tended to be used in non-save situations like you've proposed (like Gossage). I mean, did anyone want to be Lee Smith or Bruce Sutter?

And then there's the strike in '94, and a lot of people get mad at the game....and suddenly, the Yankees come more or less out of nowhere to start a dynasty and reinvigorate a lot of interest. And one of the most visible players in that dynasty is the best closer ever. It's not a huge stretch to think "Hey, they have an amazing closer; they're an amazing team. Maybe there's a connection there." And so, not for the first time, everyone tries to copy what the Yankees have done, not realizing that Mariano is possibly made of magic, and not realizing that (as good as he is) he still wasn't used 100% optimally.

7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

Now, if you excuse me, I need to bat my slap hitting second baseman second. He's a good bunter, you know.

DeWayne Mann:7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters. And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Slow To Return:DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters. And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry. I think that's terrible managing.

It absolutely is terrible managing. But if the 8th inning guy blows it, most people will forget about it.

If the "closer" comes in in the 8th and shuts them down, then the other guy pitches the ninth and still blows it, it'll be all over SportsCenter.

Slow To Return:DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters. And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry. I think that's terrible managing.

The best is when the visiting team sits on the ace during an extra inning game.

bacongood:Slow To Return: DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters. And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry. I think that's terrible managing.

The best is when the visiting team sits on the ace during an extra inning game.

I think it was the Reds a few weeks ago that used EVERY RELIEVER but their "closer" and were contemplating using a position player next. Gotta save Alroldis for that save situation that never came, you know.

DeWayne Mann:bacongood: Slow To Return: DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters. And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry. I think that's terrible managing.

The best is when the visiting team sits on the ace during an extra inning game.

I think it was the Reds a few weeks ago that used EVERY RELIEVER but their "closer" and were contemplating using a position player next. Gotta save Alroldis for that save situation that never came, you know.

It is usually followed by using the closer the next day while down by 4 because "he needs the work".

bacongood:DeWayne Mann: bacongood: Slow To Return: DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters. And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry. I think that's terrible managing.

The best is when the visiting team sits on the ace during an extra inning game.

I think it was the Reds a few weeks ago that used EVERY RELIEVER but their "closer" and were contemplating using a position player next. Gotta save Alroldis for that save situation that never came, you know.

It is usually followed by using the closer the next day while down by 4 because "he needs the work".

Either that, or he got so much work during the extra inning game (by getting up to throw some warmup tosses EVERY INNING) that he can't pitch for a couple of days.