QCF is QUICK! Holy crap that was fast. I must guess we think along the same lines. Half the crap I begged for in a post a couple days ago got thrown in. Also, I love the update script (nandrew?). Good stuff.

Just had a gnome wizard, which was able to throw out 300 dmg of fireballs with one mana pool ignoring magic resistance. With potions used he would have been able to take out a super meat man. Not much of a melee specialist though The piercing wand was a huge step in making pure magic possible. The witchalok pendant seems like an interesting option for sorcerers reducing the damage taken to be healed up by fireballs and preparing for the next round. Weakening the +damage swords makes the tri-sword even more of a staple choice, though

The monks have either to convert their locker item, or can't take the trophy with them.

Did anyone finish the Ying Yang subdungeon yet? The one time i found it in conjunction with proper glyphs i had a totally messed up dungeon start.

EDIT: Finished last sentence.

Last edited by bla0815 on Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bla0815 wrote:Did anyone finish the Ying Yang subdungeon yet? The one time i found it in conjunction with proper glyphs

[Spoiler]The "wall"(the can't un-walled type) closed up when you enter, so don't rush in without knowing full well that you can win. I killed one right after the another so don't know if the resurrection mechanism's still there. Reward is some money.

Grimm's Grotto is not "Normal" difficulty. Normal difficulty I can win 8/10 times without preparation with any character. Took me a good 10 tries tweaking out a lot of things to finish that one with a wizard. The stat multiplier on that dungeon is just brutal. The other 2 mage classes weren't so bad, but the wizard is a bit underpowered. It should be Hard difficulty, or maybe "Advanced," normal is really misleading.

I don't know, if you're doing Grimm's Grotto with the quest conditions it's not easy (not vicious either, but not easy!), but I think with optimal race/class it's probably normal difficulty.

Wizard is definitely the hardest in that quest because Halflings are so ill-suited for the job. Sorcerer is of course the best and Bloodmage CAN work if only because it doesn't have the attack penalty.

Wizards get to deal with having to use crappy Halfling melee with penalty, yay.

Edit: Speaking of "pure fireball strategies", I don't think the Piercing Wand will help with this at all. Yes, in normal dungeons, it will make the Iron Man easier, but there's ANOTHER stupid boss gimmick that makes a pure fireball strategy implausible even if you're using the best class for the job (that would be Bloodmage): "Teleporting around and spawning insta-death spikes and mana burn plants."

Last edited by TigerKnee on Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Did anyone finish the Ying Yang subdungeon yet? The one time i found it in conjunction with proper glyphs i had a totally messed up dungeon start.

Yeah. The easiest way to do it is with a level 9 assassin and just swift hands 'em. Otherwise, knock one to the brink of death, kill the other, then return and finish the last one.

if you're doing Grimm's Grotto with the quest conditions it's not easy

Agreed; halfling and wizard are a somewhat underpowered race and class, and that particular class/race combination is a nasty mismatch. The level is probably the hardest of the "normal" difficulty dungeons, but it's definitely not a hard dungeon (seriously, take a halfling wizard into Creeplight and tell me that Grimm's Grotto is the same level of difficulty!)

It definitely works for me. The combat prediction shows death, but it works.

Reward is some money.

Then i won't bother too much about it. Thanks.

Edit: Speaking of "pure fireball strategies", I don't think the Piercing Wand will help with this at all. Yes, in normal dungeons, it will make the Iron Man easier, but there's ANOTHER stupid boss gimmick that makes a pure fireball strategy implausible even if you're using the best class for the job (that would be Bloodmage): "Teleporting around and spawning insta-death spikes and mana burn plants."

It's not only usefull against the iron man. You can take the magic boon as often as you can without worrying about the magic resistance. Since you go all fireball you can take the flames boon, desecrate Taurog and offer all your health points to Dracul for more mana. It's definitely possibly, but it takes quite a lot to come together to break some of the hp-accentuated bosses.

The blink/spawning thing is Getanadafix only. I actually killed him in the bloodmage quest mainly using fireballs and he stopped that annoying stuff after a lot of hits. I didn't really count, but my rough guess would ~20. Maybe a bug :/

I've noticed he sometimes stops spawning plants, but this is unpredictable and sometimes he starts spawning them again. In any case, the sheer number of hits required by the relatively low damage BURNDAYRAZ means that you run a very high probability of getting yourself or the boss stuck behind a wall of brambles with no way to get at him.

In the previous version with that absolutely massive Ying/Yang subdungeon it was plausible to use the BLUDTUPOWA/ENDISWALL combo to turn the upper level to swiss cheese to reduce the chance of getting cut off by plants. Now, I don't think there's enough mana regen available to thin out the upper level and prevent yourself from getting stuck. I'd definitely advocate a primarily physical damage approach here.

Despite having advocated for something like it, I'm having a hard time coming up with ways for melee casters to make use of Mystera now that her Magic boon increases phys resist. (Or really, anyone who isn't going for pure fireball damage. Phys resist even affects PISORF now, right?) She's great as an early game piety battery before you switch to your "real" god, and Glyph Magnet can be quite useful; Mana Leak ranges from decent to powerful depending on the dungeon, although having first strike or fireballs is essential. Magic might be useful again near the end of a dungeon, right before killing a boss who has multiple forms (since I don't think the additional forms will have increased resistance, although I suspect that may be unintentional) or against the Indomitable once you get his HP down. Other than that, I'm not really sure. I'm tempted to take a Gnome or Elf Warlord with the Really Big Sword and see if that works, but I think the drawback to the RBS will outweigh the benefit in any dungeon where you'd actually need such a strategy; even if you don't care about losing HP against low level enemies, the permanent debuffs add up quickly in most of the hard and vicious dungeons. (And in its current, weakened form the RBS would only let you take +8 MP for "free." The RBS was of limited utility at 100% pierce; now it's just pathetic. I can definitely see how 100% was too much, but 25% seems way too low considering the penalty it imposes. Something in the 50-75% range would probably be appropriate.)

The Halfling quest has made me question whether Halflings are underpowered, or if they just make poor magic users, or if I just don't use optimal strategies with them since I hardly ever use them. They definitely have a hard time fitting in with any of the current deities other than Taurog - GG and Dracul hate health potions, Tikki Tooki hates you for taking damage, and Mystera isn't that great for melee combat for the reasons noted above. They're only really obviously suited to be Thieves or Priests, although Gnomes are probably slightly better Thieves (since mana potions don't offend Dracul); possibly also Berserkers or Monks, although Orcs are so overpowered at the moment that they'd necessarily be suboptimal.

Also, Bleaty is just absurd when he spawns in Grimm's Grotto. He can take nearly as much punishment as Super Meat Man but hits around five times harder!

The Halfling quest has made me question whether Halflings are underpowered, or if they just make poor magic users, or if I just don't use optimal strategies with them since I hardly ever use them.

I think one of the big issues coming from alpha is that the larger number of conversion points available earlier in the dungeon greatly favours permanent bonuses over the one-time bonus offered by halflings and gnomes. Secondly, we currently have lots of ways to stack and multiply attack and mana, but very few ways to improve hit points. In fact, the only reliable way to boost your HP currently is by playing as a dwarf... something mutually exclusive to playing halfling. This leaves very few combos available for someone trying to utilize lots of health potions.

As far as gods go, this should actually improve as more are introduced. Part of the problem right now is that deity list is pretty narrow, which affects quite a few classes. The recent Mystera change has pretty much left Warlords out in the cold as well; can't use Tikki or Dracul because he hates CYDSTEPP, can't use GG because he hates mana potions, can't use Mystera since she boosts physical resist, can't use Taurog since he'll lower your mana below 10.

I'd agree that as it stands currently, Priest is the only class that seems to work for halflings.

Also, Bleaty is just absurd when he spawns in Grimm's Grotto. He can take nearly as much punishment as Super Meat Man but hits around five times harder!

Bleaty seems balanced on the presumption that you're a Rogue with CYDSTEPP. He's an obscenely powerful boss as it stands currently and has no business spawning into a dungeon labelled "normal" difficulty.