ferrymansdaughter

I don't post a link to other forums because I don't think it's a proper thing under the circumstances and you know what I mean. I use certain quotes as a 'source' if that's what you want, but if that's not okay either, I will stop it.

Grossmann case CLOSED.

Slam.

I am delighted to see you quoting from Pk and hope you will continue to do so, but slamming the door doesn't close the case - except in your mind.

Actually it's quite the opposite- there's only anything to this 'case' in YOUR mind!

I feel I have provided sufficient proof that no one, even during the trial, believed FS was killed by Grossmann. It was disregarded in court, the Berlin police agreed with the Darmstadt ID of AA by FS, and FS continued to be a big part of the trial, and the AA story, right up until the DNA proved it was her after all. There really is NOTHING left to the Grossmann theory, except, in your mind. (and bear's) FS was NOT murdered by Grossmann, sorry, I know how badly you want to be rid of FS but she lived!

How ironic AA supporters can't see and be happy that there really was a lost girl found after all- FS! She wasn't dead after all. She didn't die after all, but lived on as AA, pretending to be AN.

The point is, FS wasn't reported missing until March 9. The Putch broke out on the 13th, (which the police joined!) and there was likely unrest leading up to it. The police had much bigger things on their minds than a missing girl, who at the time wasn't anyone special, and far from the only person missing in the city. What I'm saying is, due to problems in the city, the case slipped through the cracks in the early, crucial days of the investigation when the connection between AA and FS could have been made. That's why they didn't find it! But Ernie's men, able to devote much time and resources to it (using Berlin's records!) were able to ID AA as FS and turned out to be right.

I feel this is quite a bombshell to explain why they didn't make the connection right away, though AA supporrters will want you to believe it was because they were two different people, sure, like Superman and Clark Kent. The lamest thing is, IF this "Miss unknown" had been someone famous, like AN, don't you think someone would have found that out? If those pictures of her were so circulated why didn't someone say 'hey look it's the GD Anastasia!' Could it be, oh, because it wasn't her, and looked nothing like her, until she started posing and biting her lips? This is really ridiculous the more I even think about it.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 07:43:59 AM by Annie »

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ferrymansdaughter

The point is, FS wasn't reported missing until March 9. The Putch broke out on the 13th, (which the police joined!) and there was likely unrest leading up to it. The police had much bigger things on their minds than a missing girl, who at the time wasn't anyone special, and far from the only person missing in the city. What I'm saying is, due to problems in the city, the case slipped through the cracks in the early, crucial days of the investigation when the connection between AA and FS could have been made. That's why they didn't find it! But Ernie's men, able to devote much time and resources to it (using Berlin's records!) were able to ID AA as FS and turned out to be right.

I feel this is quite a bombshell to explain why they didn't make the connection right away, though AA supporrters will want you to believe it was because they were two different people, sure, like Superman and Clark Kent. The lamest thing is, IF this "Miss unknown" had been someone famous, like AN, don't you think someone would have found that out? If those pictures of her were so circulated why didn't someone say 'hey look it's the GD Anastasia!' Could it be, oh, because it wasn't her, and looked nothing like her, until she started posing and biting her lips? This is really ridiculous the more I even think about it.

But the police did devote time and resources to it - AA's photograph was sent to all police stations and people from as far as Posen were brought to see her for possible identification - that is a fact and that fact alone shows how far her details were sent, indicating that it certainly did not slip through the cracks and that this case was taken very seriously. It would be very interesting to know how many missing persons cases there were in Berlin in February 1920. Also the putsch only last FOUR DAYS and was unlikely to have had much affect on the police force - if they could still do their job properly during the four years of the war then I am sure they could during four days of the attempted coup.

Also your argument about circulation of the photos applies to FS - she had a job, she did not live in a house with only the Wingenders, they were not the only people who knew her - why did no one come forward until 1927 and then only Doris Wingender (and don't forget Doris was paid on the condition that she identified AA as FS!). As for looking nothing like AA - that first photo looks nothing like FS either - it looks like a dazed girl who has been picked up by police and fingerprinted, photographed etc as though she had commited a crime (and in 1920 maybe attempted suicide was still considered a crime in Germany). Frankly I think those photos look like a completely different, third, person.

Also the putsch only last FOUR DAYS and was unlikely to have had much affect on the police force

As a matter of fact, they JOINED it!

In March 1920, the Free Corps took over Berlin. Ebert and the government had to leave the city. The Free Corps were lead by Wolfgang Kapp - a right wing nationalist who hated the government for signing the Versailles Treaty. This incident is called the Kapp Putsch. A putsch is an attempt to take over a country by the use of force. The Free Corps was joined by the Berlin police.http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/wei2.htm

You seem to be missing the point. While the complete ouster of the government in March 1920 certainly did cause a lot of problems in Berlin life, and especially public offices (funded by the gov't) were not running normally, it wasn't only those 'four days!' There were severe problems from as soon as the war ended thru 1923, and I have posted MUCH on this in the "Grossmann" and "Final Frontier" threads WITH DOCUMENTATION. Please read it there, I'm not going through it all again.

I also address the picture issue there. If it was circulated, not many people had the time to look at it or care, and how many people who couldn't afford food bought a newspaper? She wasn't famous like she is now, so it's not strange she wasn't recognized. IF she had been AN, surely somebody would have recognized that, eh? So that fact kind of self defeats the AA supporters throwing up how nobody recognized the pic!

I agree that her mugshots don't look like AN or AA, but the reason they don't look like AA is because she had not yet started pretending to be her, pose like her and bite her lips. That's the real FS/AA there. I think it would look a lot more like the FS pic if it were clearer, but it's faded, and if anyone 'retouches' it AA supporters yell conspiracy. Still the shape of the face, hair part and placing of the features is much like AA, because AA and FS are one in the same.

ferrymansdaughter

How ironic AA supporters can't see and be happy that there really was a lost girl found after all- FS! She wasn't dead after all. She didn't die after all, but lived on as AA, pretending to be AN.

Actually i wouldn't be particularly bothered if she was FS since my feelings about this case are not as strong as yours obviously are. Franciszka had a miserable life and no one seemed to care at all. Who knows what we would have done in her shoes (size 39, not size 36 ) ? At least if she had been AA, things would have improved dramatically for her. Unfortunately there is too much conflicting evidence for me to believe that she is.

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ferrymansdaughter

I am not missing the point. I am not disputing the civil disturbance, post war problems, etc and I already knew some of the police joined in. I have already looked at the threads mentioned (and indeed read back over most of the old ones) but nothing I have read there convinces me that the police - even if they joined in a four day putsch - still did not do their job properly for the majority of 1920. There was more than one police force - like modern Italy for example, they had different types of police - a detective force, a city police and riot squads, small city police, rural police, the old imperial police etc. Obviously more than one force would operate in Berlin - were they all involved in the putsch?

I also have no idea if AA's pic was in the papers but if you re-read my post, I did not say that. It WAS sent out to all police stations to compare with reported missing persons (as FS was in March) and obviously they were working on the case as several families of missing persons came to check her out when she was in the asylum. They came from various places and included a family from Posen (the same area as FS's family) - this shows the system was working and the police were doing their job. This has been mentioned several times on this board but you do not address this. As for the fact that no-one in Germany recognised her as AN - who would? I doubt if AN's family in Germany were regularly sent police reports of missing persons in case they knew one of them!! As I have already said, there were many more people in Berlin who knew FS and only one - a PAID witness - came forward seven years later.

I do think the pic of FS looks very like a couple of photos of AA. However, pictures are very subjective - someone has pointed out that in some photos AA also looks like Amelia Earhart - fortunately Amelia did not disappear at the same time! There are however more pics of AA that I find not just similar to AN, but that show a overall family resemblance to AA's female relations which I find more convincing as anyone can resemble another person but not usually other members of their family.

But let's face it - you will never change your mind and unless someone produces more information about FS I am not likely to change my mine. Everyone else here seems to agree with everything you say but wouldn't it be dull without me and Bear?

nothing I have read there convinces me that the police - even if they joined in a four day putsch - still did not do their job properly

There is no defense for this, because obviously they DID NOT do their job correctly, probably because of all the problems going on, because they failed to make the match right away. Those early days of the investigation being disturbed hurt a lot, and this was not one of their top priorities under the circumstances of the turmoil of the times. Ernie's people found the answer, and DNA backs it up. The fact, yes, fact, is that AA was FS and they missed making this ID so they did mess up!

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As for the fact that no-one in Germany recognised her as AN - who would? I doubt if AN's family in Germany were regularly sent police reports of missing

This arugment is really a shoot in the foot for AA supporters, since if this pic was as well traveled as you say, and IF she were AN, someone WOULD have noticed it and said something. Nobody said 'Look! It's the Grand Duchess Anastasia!" she was not ID'd because she was ANONYMOUS, poor, a nobody, and didn't stick out in anyone's mind. All that changed for FS after she became AA/"Anastasia."

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As I have already said, there were many more people in Berlin who knew FS and only one - a PAID witness - came forward seven years later.

How do you know she was paid? And how many pro AA witnesses were doing it for shares in Grandanour corporation?

Dr. Von Berenberg-Gossler believes that although wishful thinking in Russian émigré circles played a part in the affair money was the principal motivation behind Anderson's claims, the supposed lost fortune of the tsar estimated at US$80.000.000.

"I believe it was at the beginning of the 1930's a corporation (Grandanor) came into existence," he says, "which sold certificates in proportion to tsarist gold roubles allegedly held by the Bank of England and redeemable if or when Anderson should "inherit" said funds. Naturally these papers were not worth anything, they served only to enrich the initiator".

You are right you'll never change my mind, but I don't know what else can jump up and bite you to prove AA was FS, because she was.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 05:01:12 PM by Annie »

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ferrymansdaughter

There is no defense for this, because obviously they DID NOT do their job correctly, probably because of all the problems going on, because they failed to make the match right away. Those early days of the investigation being disturbed hurt a lot, and this was not one of their top priorities under the circumstances of the turmoil of the times. Ernie's people found the answer, and DNA backs it up. The fact, yes, fact, is that AA was FS and they missed making this ID so they did mess up!

You have still not yet shown any proof that any disturbances caused problems or they did not do their job properly. My illustrations show that they did.

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As for the fact that no-one in Germany recognised her as AN - who would? I doubt if AN's family in Germany were regularly sent police reports of missing

This arugment is really a shoot in the foot for AA supporters, since if this pic was as well traveled as you say, and IF she were AN, someone WOULD have noticed it and said something. Nobody said 'Look! It's the Grand Duchess Anastasia!" she was not ID'd because she was ANONYMOUS, poor, a nobody, and didn't stick out in anyone's mind. All that changed for FS after she became AA/"Anastasia."

Firstly it's not me saying it was well travelled - it reached as far as Posen so there is no disputing this. Secondly I believe your argument is spurious as the photo only went to the police in Germany and the family - a foreign royal family don't forget, not German - were believed by many to have died. I have a book dated 1930 which shows a picture of the Ipatiev House and "the well outside it, down which the bodies of the family were thrown" - this shows what misinformation, disinformation and downright confusion there was as late as that. As has been pointed out before, most people wouldn't have known an individual Grand Duchess if she jumped up and bit them AND people were used to seeing formal, retouched photos of the family. You know perfectly well that casual family photos of Anastasia don't look that much like the official portraits most people would see.

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As I have already said, there were many more people in Berlin who knew FS and only one - a PAID witness - came forward seven years later.

How do you know she was paid? And how many pro AA witnesses were doing it for shares in Grandanour corporation?

She herself admitted at the trials that she was told she would be paid for a POSITIVE identification only. The Grandanor corporation is a separate issue - whether or not people may have been trying to cash in on a possible Romanov fortune may or may not be true but it has no bearing on the fact that Doris Wingender was a very dodgy witness, the only person to identify AA as FS and most importantly, someone who refused to testify on oath. If this case wasn't about AA/FS would YOU believe her?

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You are right you'll never change my mind, but I don't know what else can jump up and bite you to prove AA was FS, because she was.

More photographs, more witnesses who knew FS, proof that FS could play the piano and do exquisite needlework like AA (with one hand!) etc, etc. I don't think the asylum gave music and sewing lessons and a working class family couldn't afford them. However, I am still prepared to at least consider it if you can show me some of these things. However, I have the feeling that if a 112 year old Franciszka Schanzkowska turned up today and said "of course AA wasn't me, I went to London to work as has been suggested", you would tell her she was wrong because the DNA said so.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree or we'll be here until doomsday.

You have still not yet shown any proof that any disturbances caused problems or they did not do their job properly. My illustrations show that they did.

What illustrations? When the police are involved in a coup, they don't have time to go looking through nuthouses for missing girls. The end result speaks for itself- because AA was proven to be FS, we know they had to have been lax to not find this right away, so other things were more important to them.

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You know perfectly well that casual family photos of Anastasia don't look that much like the official portraits most people would see.

And they sure don't look a thing like FS/AA's mug shot, either, because it was a different person. The fat lips alone give it away!

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If this case wasn't about AA/FS would YOU believe her?

Come on if someone is paid off and it was publically known they'd go to jail.

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More photographs, more witnesses who knew FS,

HEARSAY and contradictory word of mouth mean nothing. Every single court case in the world has had false or incorrect testimony. People remember things wrong. None of that junk holds up to DNA.

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proof that FS could play the piano and do exquisite needlework like AA (with one hand!) etc, etc. I don't think the asylum gave music and sewing lessons and a working class family couldn't afford them.

What makes you think only rich people do these things? As a matter of fact it was considered part of any young lady's training in the old days to learn needlepoint. I mean poor people, farm people, too! In the Laura Ingalls Wilder books they learn it and they were poor (and yes a real life family) I have known people who were dirt poor and couldn't even read who could play the piano and any song you could ask for.

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However, I have the feeling that if a 112 year old Franciszka Schanzkowska turned up today and said "of course AA wasn't me, I went to London to work as has been suggested", you would tell her she was wrong because the DNA said so.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree or we'll be here until doomsday.

I say the same if a 106 year old AN walked up, or if SEARCH found and identified the bones. You'd all just say it was set up, paid off, Russian gov't crooked, switched, etc... and you know it. But the story is really getting old and tired, and surely the old cash cow can't be milked for that much more to make all this worth it.

Postage stamp of Berlin shows it was mailed on the first day of Kapp's putsch in Berlin:

I went back to the web site and double check just to make sure. The article tells us that the letter was mailed from Berlin to the USA on the first day of Kapp's putsch.

The dates for the pustch is 13 to 17 March 1920.

On another site, I found that mail was disrupted for several days during the Kapp putsch but was quickly restored..... [Not sure of the author of the site.]

Yes, a part of one branch of the police had joined Kapp. but not because of Kapp's political stand, meanwhile, the rest of that same branch of police were part of the force which caused Kapp to flee Berlin by the 17th of March. [See more detail in my earlier post.]

It's really so pathetic to see the AA supporters boring this site with their ludicrous support for the obvious fraud. It is about time they got a life and realised Grand Duchess Anastasia was brutally murdered in the Ipatiev House along with the rest of her family. AA was a total fake and the DNA testings prove it beyond a doubt. Get a life AA supporters as you are seriously a very big worry in your insanity.

ferrymansdaughter

It's really so pathetic to see the AA supporters boring this site with their ludicrous support for the obvious fraud. It is about time they got a life and realised Grand Duchess Anastasia was brutally murdered in the Ipatiev House along with the rest of her family. AA was a total fake and the DNA testings prove it beyond a doubt. Get a life AA supporters as you are seriously a very big worry in your insanity.

Hey, I have a life thanks. I've been posting more lately but I'm not on this board EVERY day like some people and if you find my "insane" postings so boring, why bother reading them?