Re: Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)

Chuck, How do you distinguish between Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers? When do each bloom in your area?

<<Summer Rebloomers get going, so proably is a whenever rebloomer>>

I'm afraid I've used the terms as interchangable. Things like All Revved Up & Returning Chameleon (just to name a couple) can start blooming in July (summer for me) and often bloom each month until fall frost. This year RC and Over and Over are the only ones that have done this in my garden, but many others have in the past.

What Again is a bit of a mystery. I've had it and lost it several times. It hasn't been a good rebloomer for me and I'm not sure if it is a summer rebloomer or not. When it has rebloomed for me it was late enough in the season to make it's classification uncertain.

Grape Cordial does not rebloom for me and so far I haven't gotten Double Your Fun to make it throgh a fisrt winter.

Be Happy has bloomer relatively early for me., but still well after Immortality.

Terry Atkin made the cross of What Again X Forever Blue, and did not get any rebloomers. So a big diffeence on reciprocal crosses. I got another piece of What Again and want to make reciprocal croses of WA and FB to see what si going on here.

So while WA gave lots of rebloomers as pollen parent it didn't for Terry as pod parent. It should have if What Again is a fall cyclic rebloomer or if it is a whenever rebloomer, so it very well be a summer rebloomer that carries the genes that FB needed.

My classification so far is the initial classification. I wouldn't be surprized to find several subgroups or other variations of rebloom genetics. So far an initial start of genetic classification.

To distinguish whenever rebloomers from summer rebloomers, you need to look at initial rebloom. Summer rebloomers need to have flower bud initiated before they rebloom, whenever rebloomers don't. Flower bud is initiated after plant has reached maturity and has 6 days of min temperature in range of 16-21 C ,. At least TBs do. May very well be different with SDB.

Whenever rebloomers, such as Forever Blue et ilk will rebloom much much earlier then summer rebloomers. I'm speculating that what is happening is a weakness of apical dominance resetting vernalization. Vernalization is an epigenetic state, set by the cool days of fall/winter. Once a plant has been vernalized, all of it's cells are set in that genetic state. As increases usually don't carry vernalizatiuon with them, it would seem that the main flower stalk resets vernalization in the plant and the increases (normally) . In the wheneever rebloomers ( at least with mine) ther is extra quick growth, so the increases may very well be too large to be reset to a non-vernalized state by apical dominance in spriong. Thus the increases bloom when they reach maturity. A working theory for now.

In any case the whenever rebloomers don't need the temperature to set flower bud, so rebloom much earlier

To distinguish sporatic as to what genetic type, (aside from test crosses) it would be necessary to see iff they bloom earlier then, say, Queen Dorothy.

Keep track of those with maiden summer bloom. I've done that with mine this year. It wil;l be interesting t osee what they do in later years.

My best guess at what is happening with maiden summer bloom comes from some research on ardiopsis. Some seeds that inherit a defective bloom gene will be set into total plant vernalization by stratification of seeds. And not have vernalization reset by germination. Thus they act as if they had already been vernalized. Thus they have genes that may contribute to rebloom, but perhaps not stong enough for rebloom. Again, morew to find out.

I still only have theories on what is making whenever rebloomers do their thing. I'm still looking carefully and tying to sort it all out. Always more to discover.

Crossed with Forever Blue, it has given fabulous rebloomers, like your fabulous Autumn Jester that bloomed 4 times this year and Blueberry Tart, that bloomed 3 times. There is also Forever Violet and Summer Recall, that i don't have here, but must be good rebloomers too, mustn't they?

And what about Be Happy ? Here , it is also a summer rebloomer, and, crossed with Forever Blue, Aitken got Double Your Fun and Grape Cordial!

There is also Cry Baby, that reblooms every summer here.

I have used profusely Forever Blue since you've sent it to me, have a look:

here are the crosses i made with Forever Blue this year:

pod

pol

seeds

B178= sangone x autumn circus

forever blue

14

Blue Chip Stock

forever blue

5

breezy blue

forever blue

24

Desi Brouwer

forever blue

3

forever

maruchi

7

forever

C144A = Plum-Plum X All That Magic

8

forever

miss meredith

4

forever

el presidente

12

forever

B247A= sailor x stingray

8

forever blue

B074A= james x forever blue

29

forever blue

B109=experiment X forever blue

8

forever blue

date

14

forever blue

C044C= cry x A045B= (sapph jewel x what)

18

forever blue

stingray

2

forever blue

B178= sangone x autumn circus

forever blue

ride the tiger

summertime blues

forever blue

25

and the crosses from last year:

A044A= red heart x plum

forever

8

A048F= djinn X bedford lilac

forever

8

B204C= step ahead x forever blue

forever

3

B306A=stingray x baby pr

forever

11

bedford lilac

forever

25

detroit

forever

9

forever

A020B-RE=whatXsapph jew

18

forever

ozark

22

forever

ruby

10

forever blue

A020B-RE=whatXsapph jew

28

forever blue

B156A=forever x cry

16

forever blue

over & over

20

2007:

pod

pol

seed

captured spirit

forever blue

33

elegant lass

forever blue

45

eternal bliss

forever blue

11

forever blue

cheeky

14

forever blue

A021A= SmellX Plum

17

forever blue

prank

13

forever blue

claire doodle

5

forever blue

punk

11

forever blue

honky tonk blues

4

hell cat

forever blue

9

immortality

forever blue

24

love's tune

forever blue

8

mariposa skies

forever blue

21

pink fawn

forever blue

19

roman noir

forever blue

29

sailor

forever blue

14

sky king return

forever blue

16

snapie

forever blue

30

thalasso

forever blue

13

ticketty boo

forever blue

24

voila

forever blue

3

wizard's return

forever blue

22

2006 :

pod

pol

az ap

forever blue

18

breakers

forever blue

8

eramosa skies

forever blue

17

experiment

forever blue

30

forever blue

captive sun

11

forever blue

star of africa

8

forever blue

chubby cheeks

7

forever blue

cry baby

0

james bond

forever blue

28

long john

forever blue

14

mezza cartuccia

forever blue

5

roman noir

forever blue

23

step ahead

forever blue

18

westar

forever blue

8

Now, some exciting results:

here are the ones that maiden bloomed this summer (we'll see next year if they really are rebloomers, but it is a good omen),

this is the whole list, there are many from Forever Blue, and also from What Again:

B032B=cream X frankincense

07_12

B032C = Cream & Peaches X Franckincense

10_09

B297C=et bliss x punk

08_08

C014A= midsummer's eve x rom ev

09_09

C017B= miss nellie x buc arcade

09_02

C022A= demon x altar fire

08_30

C044B= cry x A045B= (sapph jewel x what)

08_29

C065A= A034B= (high wire x what ) Xunknown

08_16

C065B= (A034B= high wire x what ) Xunknown

08_14

C065D= (A034B= high wire x what ) Xunknown

07_22

C065E= (A034B= high wire x what ) Xunknown

08_09

C065F= A034B= (high wire x what ) Xunknown

08_16

C067D= (A038E = gypsy boy x hot) X aut tan

08_27

C067E= (A038E = gypsy boy x hot) X aut tan

10_17

C078B= blueberry tart X A045B= (sapph jewel x what)

08_27

C080B= capt spirit xforever

08_17

C080C= capt spirit x forever

09_04

C090A=dark crystal x autumn jester

08_16

C095A= dixie x cry

09_04

C105B= forever x punk

07_29

C138B=pink fawn X forever

07_05

C138C=pink fawn X fforever

07_18

C138D= pink fawn xforever

08_15

C139A= plenitude x cry

08_20

C144A= plum x all that magic

08_13

C160A= serenity X (A045B= sapph jewel x what)

07_27

C167A= sparkplug X (A023B= smelll x what)

09_10

C173A=ticketty boo x forever

07_15

C173B=ticketty boo x forever

08_12

C185A= fairy x elegant

08_09

C191A = (A045D=(sapph jewel x what)) X cheeky

07_26

C199= baby prince x ozark

09_07

C208A= cry x immortality

09_09

C209 = cry X Just teasing

09_27

C240A= punk x bounce back

08_22

C250A= tarheel x ozark

09_09

C262= wizard's x stingray

09_19

C264= (A052A=tweety X flamingvic) Xmidsummer's eve

11_10

C265A= A056A-speculaas x altar fires

09_05

C272A=sunny cinnamon x midsummer's eve

08_01

C273= (A056A=(gypsy boy x rom ev) X cassis)

07_10

C295A= finsterwald x hot

08_22

C312= nth jewel x pinch

08_24

C322A = Radiant Love X Bijtje:(pelexhot)

09_15

C330A= voila x all that magic

09_05

C331= voila X (A034B= high wire x what)

08_31

C343= angel heart x banana

07_20

C348B = Zing Me X Romantic Evening

09_12

C350A = Evercool X Popstar

09_23

C358A = Low Ho Silver X Immortality

11_05

C360= many manalos x et bliss

08_31

C364A= pink pele x rom ev

08_25

C375B= smash x miss nellie

08_27

C380A= aglow again x midsummer's eve

08_06

C382E= step ahead X A045L(= sapph jewel x what)

08_07

C383A= elegant lass x forever

07_30

C383B= elegant lass x forever

08_05

C387A= smash x elegant

08_31

C399 = Dante's Inferno X A001A ( baby bengal x Tiger Honey )

09_13

C411A = Angelic Wings X What Again

09_20

C411B = Angelic Wings X What Again

10_03

C411C = Angelic Wings X What Again

10_07

C411D = Angelic Wings X What Again

10_10

C411E = Angelic Wings X What Again

10_31

C437A= gold reprise x (A023C=(smelll x what))

08_13

C458= skyking returns x cry

08_26

C482A=unknown TB X unknown

07_25

C482B=unknown TB X unknown

08_15

C482C= unknown TB x unknown

08_30

C494A=unknown X unknown

08_16

It will be more interesting to see what really reblooms next year, but think it would be good food for thought.

Loïc

NB: Betty, have you noticed all the seedlings from Midsummer's Eve, that is a child from Immortality!

At times it takes close observation to distinguish what type of rebloomer you have. A plant that reblooms later in season may be a summer rebloomer genetically, but not have had size earlier in season to trigger bloom. So you would need to have noted that it was at size (leaf maturity) to have summer rebloom, and have it sit there and not rebloom when opportunity presents. Opporunity based on weather factors, but you can use plant markers such as Immortality and Queen dorothy as markers.

Also you can have Fall cyclic rebloomers put up a summer bloom, but on a fan that should have bloomed in spring, but was just missing all factors needed. You can tell this by checking rhizome to see if it is a mother fan blooming or an increase. If on a mother fan, then consider this to not be a summer rebloomer, until you get a summer bloom on an increase.

There is absolutly no doubt in my mind that Summer Rebloomers and Fall cyclic rebloomers are different genetically. I had made numerous crosses of Forever Blue with summer rebloomers, nary a rebloom seedling out of hundreds of seedlings. Many rebloomers out of FB X fall cyclic rebloomers. Far far past any level of significance you could apply to this.

Many instances of Fall cyclic rebloomers from cross of Fall cyclic rebloomers X oncers. George Sutton had written and article on this a couple of years back.

[so folks trying to find info in the archives are more likely to find
the discussion, I've moved my comments there as well as photos]

Too soon in attempted rebloom crosses to say for sure, but so far,
rebloom seems to be acting like a full recessive trait (i.e., 1/36 fall
cycle from two half "summer" rebloom parents). Climate interaction and
multiple genetic factors makes it hard to interpret data, but easy
enough to figure out what I want to change.

I'm still not totally convinced that fall cycle and "summer" (i.e.
jul/aug in my climate) bloom are separate genes. With only maiden
bloom, it's too soon to tell how many/if any of the late fall bloom this
year is really rebloom, much less whether it's cycle or summer.

However, if your theory holds for my climate, Chuck, based on leaf
count, it looks like they will all be late cycle.

If they are separate genes, most/all of the "summer" bloomers here also
have cycle rebloom genes.

But am hoping that whatever other factors are operating in plants that
<can> bloom in July and Aug in California have a chance of combining
with plants carrying Jul/Aug genes here to produce plants that will
thrive in my growing conditions and at least bloom by Sept. I'm hoping
to combine traits of my plants that thrive in summer high humidity and
erratic rainfall with those of cultivars that bloom in CA summer heat.

May not be possible, but I figure it's worth a try.

So far, the only west coast summer bloomers that have rebloomed here are
FEED BACK and GOLDEN IMMORTAL. At least those are the only two I can
think of. MARTY RICHARDS is alive, but doesn't rebloom. MARIPOSA
AUTUMN is a strong growing, reliable, fairly early cycle rebloomer here.

Chuck replied:
<Fall Cyclic maturity seems to act like a dominant factor, so no need
to cross it with an other Fall cyclic rebloomer. Just a plant with fast
growth and low "plant Maturity" leaf count.>

I said:
<To get away from all this late cycle rebloom here, for next year's
rebloom crosses, I hope to mix the late cycle genes from a few things
exclusively with west coast "summer" bloomers to see if that will get
the right mixture of rebloom genes to at least get earlier fall bloom.>