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Re: Jutsu Discussion Mega Convo Thread

Jdw I think its clear Jiraya told that only to make Naruto interested.

Anyway guys .. As Yamato said , and as we all know , jutsu which combines both nature and shape manipulation is stronger then the one which uses only shape manipulation.All important jutsus are made with using both of those types of manipulation of chakra.

Its simple.Shape against shape equals zero , they cancel each other.Shape+nature beats shape alone.Chidori is shape+nature.Rasengan is shape alone.Meaning there is no way Rasengan can be as strong as Chidori.

Maybe Rasengan is A type jutsu or whatever , as well as Chidori , but Rasengan uses ONLY shape manipulation.

And what about those relationships of elements which are not directly connected on the diagram?

Re: Jutsu Discussion Mega Convo Thread

Originally Posted by Wiolin

Jdw I think its clear Jiraya told that only to make Naruto interested.

I don't think that is clear at all. Ordinary chakra shape manipulation rasengan stood up to chidori (which is raiton), and the only time it really clearly lost is when Naruto didn't intend for it to win. Not saying it would have won, but Naruto chose to go for symbolism instead of an attempt at victory, which is his own fault, of course.

Jiraiya could have said "i know a jutsu to rival chidori in power" and Naruto would have gotten all most anyway. I stand by my opinion, if the objective power applied is equal, rasengan toasts chidori.

Re: Jutsu Discussion Mega Convo Thread

According to this diagram water is stronger then fire , fire then wind , wind then lighting , lighting then earth and finally earth then water.

But what about cross relations?Fire-earth , fire-lighting ,water-lighting,water-wind and wind-Earth?

Well, I guess the cross relations should equal, and one whould only beat the other if more chakra is put on one and obviously depensing on the type of jutsu. Ex: Fire dragon jutsu vs a high level earth wall using both the same chakra. Probably the outcome whould be that the earth wall whould be torn appart, while blocking the fire jutsu.

Re: Jutsu Discussion Mega Convo Thread

About the Chidori vs Rasengan, the manga made it pretty clear why they can match up to a certia degree.

The manga states that Rasengan is the highest level of spatial manipulation(link). Therefore, the manga clearly implies there are levels of spatial manipulation. These levels most likely play a part in determining the strength of a jutsu. This is why shinobis bother to shape their blasts into things like Dragons or such(and no, it's not because of the "cool" factor ): because it grants their jutsus more power.

Now, Chidori's shape is relatively simple IMO: it's basically a surge of chakra around your hand. If we compare it to the mini rotational vortex that is Rasengan, it pales when we speak strictly of shape. However, adding in elemental manipulation to Chidori gives it another level of power which makes up for this seemingly lesser shape.

However, Rasengan's shape is so complex that it alone allows Rasengan to possess enough power to compete with elemental jutsus that have both spatial and elemental recompositions.

If you want a crude numbering system, let's pretend this: say Chidori has a "score" of 2 in shape manipulation, but that it has a score of 5 in elemental manipulation. It's total power is 7. Now, Rasengan's advanced shape alone grants it a 7, which would make it be able to compete with Chidori despite lacking one of the 2 aspects of an elemental jutsu. While this is a crude model(it doesn't take into account the possibility of existence of different levels of nature manipulation), it works for the purposes of basic understanding.

Now, concerning the wheel of elements, Yamato made it pretty clear also. Elemental advantages/disadvantages mostly come into play for jutsus of similar level. See, Yamato states "if you counter Sasuke's fire jutsu with a wind jutsu of same level, you'll only make Sasuke's fire stronger"(link). See? there is specific mention of a similarity in levels. Therefore, a low rank fire jutsu(ex: Katon Endan) will not overpower FRS because of elemental advantage because the advantage is not enough to overcome the difference in power.

So to come back to the point... elements with no direct advantage/disadvantage between each other will simply follow the regular rule of jutsus: the stronger one wins.

Re: Jutsu Discussion Mega Convo Thread

If thats the case then whats the point in fusing nature and shape into one ?You can develope your curent jutsu in the way to enchance its shape and build your might on that account.Or just use nature manipulation.If there is a levels in both of those kinds of chakra manipulation then the reason for fusing them is gone.

You can use top level form of shape manipulation like Rasengan is, againts almost everything of the same level , no metter is it both shape and nature or nature alone.

Re: Jutsu Discussion Mega Convo Thread

Originally Posted by Wiolin

If thats the case then whats the point in fusing nature and shape into one ?You can develope your curent jutsu in the way to enchance its shape and build your might on that account.Or just use nature manipulation.If there is a levels in both of those kinds of chakra manipulation then the reason for fusing them is gone.

You can use top level form of shape manipulation like Rasengan is, againts almost everything of the same level , no metter is it both shape and nature or nature alone.

What determinates the level of chakra manipulation?

Remember that this model is only a rough estimate to be used for elemental jutsus. It doesn't apply for jutsus with other manipulations(ex: physical jutsus, genjutsu etc.) and is only to be used as a crude model to determine the strength of an elemental jutsu.

The reason behind this model the manga presents is quite simple: elemental jutsus can be broken down into those 2 types of manipulation.

I don't see why having different levels of shape(and possibly nature, but the manga never confirms this) manipulation voids the use of having both of them.