I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think there could be a Spanish L21+ haplotype cluster with the following off-modal (for R1b1b2) values:

385a=12

439=11

459a=10

447=24

449=31-32

464a=14

456=15

607=16

438=11

Run the following in Ysearch's "Research Tools" along with the R1b1b2 modal, C7BED. Compare them and see what you think.

Archuleta BXPKT

Calzada BDAWP

Garcia ZQ6P9 (this one has all the off-modal values named above but needs to enter his additional markers in Ysearch)

Romero 7K7QZ (tested L21+)

Sampedro pp6sj (tested L21+)

I haven't tried looking for any more men with those values or close to those values. I'm pretty sure the near matches of Romero - Lopez, Manchego and Valencia - who have not yet responded to my emails would fit in the cluster, as well (if it is a cluster).

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think there could be a Spanish L21+ haplotype cluster with the following off-modal (for R1b1b2) values:

385a=12439=11459a=10447=24449=31-32464a=14456=15607=16438=11

Run the following in Ysearch's "Research Tools" along with the R1b1b2 modal, C7BED. Compare them and see what you think.Archuleta BXPKTCalzada BDAWPGarcia ZQ6P9 (this one has all the off-modal values named above but needs to enter his additional markers in Ysearch)Romero 7K7QZ (tested L21+)

Sampedro pp6sj (tested L21+)

I haven't tried looking for any more men with those values or close to those values. I'm pretty sure the near matches of Romero - Lopez, Manchego and Valencia - who have not yet responded to my emails would fit in the cluster, as well (if it is a cluster).

I agree. This looks like a clade. Archuleta and Romero look like they are on one sub-branch of it. Sampedro and Santander on another. Calzada and Garcia would be the asterisk guys of the clade but this is where 67 markers on everyone would help a lot.

Sampedro and Santander are the same person; Sampedro is just the ancestral surname.

Garcia needs to update his Ysearch entry (where he has only 12 markers), but he is actually tested to 37 markers (which can be seen in the "L21 Pending, Test in Progress" category of the project web site). He has all those off-modal values.

It would be nice if we had 67-marker haplotypes for these folks, but some of them have 37 markers at least.

I'm wondering how many more are out there and what their ultimate TMRCA might be. I'm thinking it's relatively recent, not genealogical but perhaps dating to the historical period at least.

Sampedro and Santander are the same person; Sampedro is just the ancestral surname.

Garcia needs to update his Ysearch entry (where he has only 12 markers), but he is actually tested to 37 markers (which can be seen in the "L21 Pending, Test in Progress" category of the project web site). He has all those off-modal values.

It would be nice if we had 67-marker haplotypes for these folks, but some of them have 37 markers at least.

I'm wondering how many more are out there and what their ultimate TMRCA might be. I'm thinking it's relatively recent, not genealogical but perhaps dating to the historical period at least.

I just about fell of my chair when I saw the first 29 markers as I compared them to mine. Not close afterwards but...http://tinyurl.com/g47vv

WAMH is still WAMH. We are all closely related (in context of Homo Sapiens Sapiens Y DNA) to some Western Atlantic man who had a haplotype similar to WAMH. Ironically, that man perhaps would be better labeled Western Black Sea man or Western Caspian Sea man or Western Iranian man.

Sampedro and Santander are the same person; Sampedro is just the ancestral surname.

Garcia needs to update his Ysearch entry (where he has only 12 markers), but he is actually tested to 37 markers (which can be seen in the "L21 Pending, Test in Progress" category of the project web site). He has all those off-modal values.

It would be nice if we had 67-marker haplotypes for these folks, but some of them have 37 markers at least.

I'm wondering how many more are out there and what their ultimate TMRCA might be. I'm thinking it's relatively recent, not genealogical but perhaps dating to the historical period at least.

A young Iberian cluster that is spread widely but thinly across Iberia may be interesting. It would take some explaining if it is historic period (say early Medieval perhaps) because in the historic period Iberia was regionally divided rather than united and it would be hard to pinpoint common denominator that could have spread L21. This is especially so when you consider it is scattered between Basques, Catalans, Portuguese etc. So, it must either pre-date or post-date the emergence of these separate identities. It it turns out most fall into a young cluster and this leaves little older plain L21 then that would suggest an outside intrusion from somewhere where L21 is older. So, once the cluster is defined, the remainder of Iberian ancestry who are L21* but who do not fall into it will be of as much interest as those who do. A cluster needs pre-cluster ancestors whether or not they are local, in the same way as M222 must have ancestors among the non-M222 L21* populations either locally or elsewhere.

WAMH is still WAMH. We are all closely related (in context of Homo Sapiens Sapiens Y DNA) to some Western Atlantic man who had a haplotype similar to WAMH. Ironically, that man perhaps would be better labeled Western Black Sea man or Western Caspian Sea man or Western Iranian man.

Sampedro and Santander are the same person; Sampedro is just the ancestral surname.

Garcia needs to update his Ysearch entry (where he has only 12 markers), but he is actually tested to 37 markers (which can be seen in the "L21 Pending, Test in Progress" category of the project web site). He has all those off-modal values.

It would be nice if we had 67-marker haplotypes for these folks, but some of them have 37 markers at least.

I'm wondering how many more are out there and what their ultimate TMRCA might be. I'm thinking it's relatively recent, not genealogical but perhaps dating to the historical period at least.

This does look to be fairly young.

How young do you think?

If you really want it here it is, but I feel a bit like Tim J. At the end of the day I'm not sure all of the gyrations have helped that much. This is using his spreadsheet.

Ysearch BDAWP Calzada only had 25 markers so I dropped him from the analysis.

I'm not the one to explain the numbers but I think Vince V will say you should allow 30% up or down as a potential range.

If you want a (claimed to be) precise TRMCA, I'll try to get that too straight from the horse's mouth, but some will disagree with the method used.

What's my opinion? If I give some credibility to the MDKA's listed and some history I'm going with an MDKA of 900 ybp, give or take 300 years... but more likely to give than reduce. This is just a guesstimate. If you want speculation.. I'd wonder if these were people that fled or otherwise found refuge and then expanded with the Reconquista or whatever you want to call it.

I wish I could look at all six ht's with 67 markers. I'd feel better if I could see GD's over 67 markers.

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think there could be a Spanish L21+ haplotype cluster with the following off-modal (for R1b1b2) values:

385a=12439=11459a=10447=24449=31-32464a=14456=15607=16438=11

Run the following in Ysearch's "Research Tools" along with the R1b1b2 modal, C7BED. Compare them and see what you think.Archuleta BXPKTCalzada BDAWPGarcia ZQ6P9 (this one has all the off-modal values named above but needs to enter his additional markers in Ysearch)Romero 7K7QZ (tested L21+)

Sampedro pp6sj (tested L21+)

I haven't tried looking for any more men with those values or close to those values. I'm pretty sure the near matches of Romero - Lopez, Manchego and Valencia - who have not yet responded to my emails would fit in the cluster, as well (if it is a cluster).

I agree. This looks like a clade. Archuleta and Romero look like they are on one sub-branch of it. Sampedro and Santander on another. Calzada and Garcia would be the asterisk guys of the clade but this is where 67 markers on everyone would help a lot.

That list contains a Basque, a Cantabrian and the name Santander is also the main town in Cantabria. That is 50% in the the two most north-easterly parts of Spain and none located anywhere else for sure. Do the other surnames link to any particular areas of Spain?

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think there could be a Spanish L21+ haplotype cluster with the following off-modal (for R1b1b2) values:

385a=12439=11459a=10447=24449=31-32464a=14456=15607=16438=11

Run the following in Ysearch's "Research Tools" along with the R1b1b2 modal, C7BED. Compare them and see what you think.Archuleta BXPKTCalzada BDAWPGarcia ZQ6P9 (this one has all the off-modal values named above but needs to enter his additional markers in Ysearch)Romero 7K7QZ (tested L21+)

Sampedro pp6sj (tested L21+)

I haven't tried looking for any more men with those values or close to those values. I'm pretty sure the near matches of Romero - Lopez, Manchego and Valencia - who have not yet responded to my emails would fit in the cluster, as well (if it is a cluster).

I agree. This looks like a clade. Archuleta and Romero look like they are on one sub-branch of it. Sampedro and Santander on another. Calzada and Garcia would be the asterisk guys of the clade but this is where 67 markers on everyone would help a lot.

That list contains a Basque, a Cantabrian and the name Santander is also the main town in Cantabria. That is 50% in the the two most north-easterly parts of Spain and none located anywhere else for sure. Do the other surnames link to any particular areas of Spain?

According to the World Names Profiler, the surname Romero is most common in Extremadura, Andalucia, Castilla-La Mancha, and Madrid.

It has Calzada as most common in Castilla Y Leon, Cantabria, and Pais Vasco.

Garcia is kind of like Smith and Jones, I guess. It is widespread throughout Spain but least common in Navarra and Catalonia.

A little less stringent confidence interval than I thought he'd give, but here is another calculation.

Quote from: Anatole Klyosov

Dear Mike,

Those 6 haplotype is a rather recent family, their common ancestor lived 925+/-310 years back, that is around the 11th century AD. Its base haplotype differs by 10 mutations in the first 37 markers, that is by 3100 years from the L21 base haplotype, which places the common ancestor of L21 and those 6 haplotypes at 3100+925 = 4025 years before present. This is the L21 itself.

That makes sense to me. When I spotted that cluster, I thought it probably arose before the advent of surnames but not too long before. That wasn't based on math; it was based on the sheer number of different surnames that share it and Spanish origin, and there may be more to come.

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think there could be a Spanish L21+ haplotype cluster with the following off-modal (for R1b1b2) values:

385a=12439=11459a=10447=24449=31-32464a=14456=15607=16438=11

Run the following in Ysearch's "Research Tools" along with the R1b1b2 modal, C7BED. Compare them and see what you think.Archuleta BXPKTCalzada BDAWPGarcia ZQ6P9 (this one has all the off-modal values named above but needs to enter his additional markers in Ysearch)Romero 7K7QZ (tested L21+)

Sampedro pp6sj (tested L21+)

I haven't tried looking for any more men with those values or close to those values. I'm pretty sure the near matches of Romero - Lopez, Manchego and Valencia - who have not yet responded to my emails would fit in the cluster, as well (if it is a cluster).

I agree. This looks like a clade. Archuleta and Romero look like they are on one sub-branch of it. Sampedro and Santander on another. Calzada and Garcia would be the asterisk guys of the clade but this is where 67 markers on everyone would help a lot.

That list contains a Basque, a Cantabrian and the name Santander is also the main town in Cantabria. That is 50% in the the two most north-easterly parts of Spain and none located anywhere else for sure. Do the other surnames link to any particular areas of Spain?

According to the World Names Profiler, the surname Romero is most common in Extremadura, Andalucia, Castilla-La Mancha, and Madrid.

It has Calzada as most common in Castilla Y Leon, Cantabria, and Pais Vasco.

Garcia is kind of like Smith and Jones, I guess. It is widespread throughout Spain but least common in Navarra and Catalonia.

Sounds like a good chance that Calzada may be from the same area as the three from the Basque area and Cantabria. So, that would be 4 out of the 6 with only one looking fairly unlikely to be from the NE (Romero). I know its premature but I find that a little odd if its just chance. It also seems to echo a bit of a bias towards the eastern border area in the overall L21 distribution in Iberia.

Sounds like a good chance that Calzada may be from the same area as the three from the Basque area and Cantabria. So, that would be 4 out of the 6 with only one looking fairly unlikely to be from the NE (Romero). I know its premature but I find that a little odd if its just chance. It also seems to echo a bit of a bias towards the eastern border area in the overall L21 distribution in Iberia.

Time will tell, of course, but not all of our Iberian guys belong to this particular cluster, and we don't know yet how extensive the outliers of this cluster are. There may be some men out there who share most but not all of its characteristic marker values. They could push the TMRCA back a bit, if it turns out that they, too, are L21+.

Take Robles, Ysearch G9CRT, for example. He is on the fringe of the group. If he is L21+, that might push the TMRCA of the cluster back a bit. That surname is most common in Andalucia, Castilla Y Leon, Madrid, and Murcia. Of course, Robles might be L21-; we don't know.

In Hispania the struggle against the Moors continued unabated throughout the latter half of his reign. His son Louis was in charge of the Spanish border.

In 785, his men captured Gerona permanently and extended Frankish control into the Catalan littoral for the duration of Charlemagne's reign (and much longer, it remained nominally Frankish until the Treaty of Corbeil in 1258).

The Muslim chiefs in the northeast of Islamic Spain were constantly revolting against Córdoban authority and they often turned to the Franks for help. The Frankish border was slowly extended until 795, when Gerona, Cardona, Ausona, and Urgel were united into the new Spanish March, within the old duchy of Septimania.

In 797 Barcelona, the greatest city of the region, fell to the Franks when Zeid, its governor, rebelled against Córdoba and, failing, handed it to them. The Umayyad authority recaptured it in 799. However, Louis of Aquitaine marched the entire army of his kingdom over the Pyrenees and besieged it for two years, wintering there from 800 to 801, when it capitulated. The Franks continued to press forwards against the emir. They took Tarragona in 809 and Tortosa in 811. The last conquest brought them to the mouth of the Ebro and gave them raiding access to Valencia, prompting the Emir al-Hakam I to recognise their conquests in 812.

I don't know, but I don't really see L21 closely connected with the old homelands of the Franks, not in a big way, at least.

The Franks were a confederacy of Germanic tribes from the lower Rhine mainly. There is L21 there, but not so much that I think one can conclude that the Franks had a lot of it. Could the Franks have spread some L21? Sure, but I just don't think there is a close connection between the early medieval Franks and L21. A better case could be made for a connection between the Franks and U106, IMO.

I visited the tomb of Chalemange in Aachen Cathedral today. Most of his "giant" bones are preserved in a golden casket in the cathedral and his skull right arm and thighbone are on display in golden containers in the nearby Treasury.It would be interesting if permission was given to extract DNA especially as he has a well documented genealogy including most of the European royal families. Unfortunately it appears many of the direct male lines have not survieved.