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If by new icon you mean new cache type - how would that work with the existing challenges?

Changing the types on all existing Mystery/challenges would vastly mess up player stats. Oddly, it would break a lot of challenge qualifications. X number of Mystery finds 😉

Once published, cache type is rarely changed, and in this case, I'd bet not at all. Possibly, where owners are active and care, archive the post-moratorium Mystery/Challenges and bring them back as NEW CACHE TYPE challenges, but that would not work for the pre-moratorium grandfathered challenges. (And some players would just log finds again, sans second signature).

So you'd have "old" Mystery/ challenge and New Type Challenge.

Frankly, a mess.

I expect $ cost would be high too: develop a new type, get it into the CSP, t support it in all the different devices in use now, the API partners.

Back during the moratorium Rock Chalk mentioned that they'd track finds on Challenges, and it was less than finds on Multi. I think I remember that it users at 0.2%. I could be wrong on the number.

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If by new icon you mean new cache type - how would that work with the existing challenges?

With a creative solution this can be achieved. Only a new icon has been requested. No one is asking for a new cache type.

Playes who can't live without a different icon for challenge caches, I recommend using PGC live map. Yes - it has a different icon for challlenge caches and the icon show you whether you have met the challenge requirements or not. What a fantastic solution!

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1 - if it's another attribute added to the list of attributes (similar to the suggestion for a power trail attribute). It wouldn't affect much, other than requiring the CO to make sure it's selected before publication.

2 - A new icon would mean a new cache type, even within the ? sub-category. I suspect they would show up similar to how the event caches are divided up. They're all events but they all have their own icon and are different cache types. You could even do the same for field puzzles. As long as neither icon would subtract from the ? category in which they're currently lumped, it could, conceivably, work.

I don't know how difficult something like this might be to implement but as long as the stats aren't affected (which would be the main issue I'd have against this idea), I'd be up for something like this.

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Yes - it has a different icon for challlenge caches and the icon show you whether you have met...

I assume this is a paid member option, as I simply the ? Mystery symbol - no difference between Mystery/challenge, Mystery/puzzle , Mystery/bonus. I'm not knocking this, I think it's a great service and clearly many find it worth paying for.

This may be why Geocaching.com is not doing anything further with this - if you care enough about it, it's available through an API partner at a cost that seems bearable to that site.

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1 - if it's another attribute added to the list of attributes (similar to the suggestion for a power trail attribute). It wouldn't affect much, other than requiring the CO to make sure it's selected before publication.

With the sheer number of challenge caches already placed, this is really the only viable option. It also has the benefit of being simple to implement, since the attribute system already exists. That being said, the suggestion has been brought up about as many times as the power trail attribute, and neither have materialized.

You could introduce a new icon, but retroactively changing all the existing listings would lead to a revolt. You could start using it just for new challenges, but having a mixture of icons for challenge caches would just be confusing.

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With the sheer number of challenge caches already placed, this is really the only viable option. It also has the benefit of being simple to implement, since the attribute system already exists. That being said, the suggestion has been brought up about as many times as the power trail attribute, and neither have materialized.

You could introduce a new icon, but retroactively changing all the existing listings would lead to a revolt. You could start using it just for new challenges, but having a mixture of icons for challenge caches would just be confusing.

I am not a fan of a new attribute unless Groundspeak put a filter on the app to select them. I would love this kind of filter for the winter/non-winter attribute on the app. I don't like using list because of the 1000 limit.

I am failing to see why a revolt? People argument is about messing statistics but one of the suggestion was to put them in the sub-category of mystery so then challenge checker won't be impacted.

I would be happy that the challenges I own be transferred to this new icon.

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There is no perfect way to address this. Given that, is there a solution that makes things any better than they are today.

IMO, a new cache type is warranted, and it would make things better. The type of cache is unique enough to warrant it. Challenge caches have a long history, and a very large discussion. They are well defined, no mystery to them (pun intended).

It would be very time consuming to identify all of the existing challenge caches, and change them. So, don't. New caches types have been added before, and not all of the caches prior to the new cache type were changed. It is still possible to find multi-caches that have a cache type of traditional. Challenge checkers might have to be re-written, but that would not be difficult.

As for GPSr units, most have a default cache icon for geocaches, the new challenge cache type would fall to that. My old eTrex only has one symbol for a geocache, it doesn't care about the type at all. For newer GPSr units, manufacturers might update their firmware, and they might incorporate the new type into new models.

I think that using an attribute would be less useful. None of the existing attributes have anything to do with logging requirements, so this would be a new category of attribute. We could get improper usage, for example, a CO might mark their D5 cache as a challenge cache, because it is challenging to find. If the attribute is; has an ALR, we have virtuals, webcams, and earthcaches that also have ALR's. I don't believe that reviewers spend as much time reviewing attributes, so new challenge caches might not get properly marked. There is no attribute filtering on the map.

With an attribute, we would still have the issue of what to do with existing challenge caches. So, that is a wash.

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It would be very time consuming to identify all of the existing challenge caches, and change them. So, don't. New caches types have been added before, and not all of the caches prior to the new cache type were changed. It is still possible to find multi-caches that have a cache type of traditional. Challenge checkers might have to be re-written, but that would not be difficult.

Project-gc already has a complete list of every challenge existing even the grand-fathered one.

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Project-gc already has a complete list of every challenge existing even the grand-fathered one.

I don't believe they have a 100% accurate list, because a portion of that list has to be manually created. It wasn't until later that challenge caches had to be mystery, and have the word challenge in the title. So, somehow all of the early caches would have had to be reviewed manually.

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23 hours and frinklabs hasn't yet quoted their challenge stars idea. Should we send someone over to check on them?

I don't have to quote it -- clearly it is such an obvious solution to these issues that others will mention it for me.

For the record:

And before all the sayers-of-nay jump in, I want to hear specific objections besides "no one wants this"

I know that I can't pre-sign challenge caches because when I have to pound the square peg into the round hold by changing it to/posting a find, it will mess up the geography of where I _actually_ was located. This solution addresses that.

As for the OP's issue, the Stars solution would provide a map filter based on the number of Challenge Stars applied to a cache.

And before all the sayers-of-nay jump in, I want to hear specific objections besides "no one wants this"

I think that if you're going to the trouble of breaking the link between completing a challenge and logging a Find on a challenge cache, then you should go all the way and break the link between completing a challenge and finding a cache. The whole idea of a Challenge Completed log type for caches seems like an extra level of unnecessary complication. Just make challenges virtual, with no caches associated with them at all.

How's that for a specific objection besides "no one wants this"? Anyway, further discussion probably belongs in the Challenge Stars thread.

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How's that for a specific objection besides "no one wants this"? Anyway, further discussion probably belongs in the Challenge Stars thread.

Thank you! That's exactly the kind of sensible objection that can be addressed. And I don't want to bump the original thread because it lives in the Website subforum and there's not alot of traction over there -- and these issues have all been discussed and resolved therein. So better to sumarize and continue here.

16 hours ago, niraD said:

The whole idea of a Challenge Completed log type for caches seems like an extra level of unnecessary complication.

The extant shoehorn solution is already unnecessarily complicated -- asking a single log type to perform two roles, depending on its location in the process's temporal timeline.

16 hours ago, niraD said:

you should go all the way and break the link between completing a challenge and finding a cache﻿.

Yes! The Found It will mean that you found it. The Challenge Completed will mean that you completed the challenge. The fabric of space-time is maintained.