Ok, I have been involved in music system hobby for a while, and I have seen all kinds of ******** -- disks you put on top of components -- and milimeters difference in placement and even slight turning of the disks purportedly makes an enormous difference in sound; paying hundreds of dollars for things on which you place speaker wire so it is off the ground; interconnects that cost in mid-four figures -- more than an entire very capable stereo system.

But these damn pebbles take the cake. I am sorry, anyone who buys them should come see me and pay me the same money and I will give them the psychic high of telling them how good their system sounds.

I had to leave a hi-fi shop once because I couldn't stop laughing when the salesperson told me why their cables had arrows on them.

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Place those cables in the right setup and it does matter. Just because you have not heard the difference or can’t quantify it on paper doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I use to make fun of the snake oil audio cable debates...I’m not laughing anymore.

Since you have stated that you don't care what we think - then I will leave you with this.
Thinking that power supplies or conditioners can change the mix of a old Vinyl LP is
ludicrous.

Stating that you are into high end audio and then going out an buying a Furman thinking
that it may make a difference is - well - whatever floats your boat. If you are an engineer
then get out your Fluke and start measuring the voltages and amps coming across between
the input and output of the Furman.

That said - if you want to hear a difference in clarity and depth of audio - and you want to
start with power - then install a opto isolated balanced power transformer on the incoming power to
your house or apartment. Then hardwire 4 gauge wire from the Transformer to your room
and distribute your power at that point.

From experience - my studio is isolated and balanced. Everything is quieter - even my
high end gear that was quieter to begin with - I can measure the Db output and see
a quantifiable drop in extraneous noise.

Furmans for the record - do not do jack all to the audio unless your gear is undersupplied
or have poor transformers that act differently from 110 v to 125 v.

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This is debated all the time.. I don’t have a science answer that you need, to believe. But I do know I don’t listen with beakers and calculators. I listen with my ears. I gave up ney saying some of this stuff because we did A&B test... like a lot. And then your left with truths. I can’t prove on paper every variable or difference. What works in one situation does not work in the next.

Place those cables in the right setup and it does matter. Just because you have not heard the difference or can’t quantify it on paper doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I use to make fun of the snake oil audio cable debates...I’m not laughing anymore.

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I was talking about arrows on the side of some cheap cables. I think you might be assuming a little too much.

You could have connected these cables anyway you liked - they'd still measure the same.

The packaging and marketing of the product though was very well thought out.

This is debated all the time.. I don’t have a science answer that you need, to believe. But I do know I don’t listen with beakers and calculators. I listen with my ears. I gave up ney saying some of this stuff because we did A&B test... like a lot. And then your left with truths. I can’t prove on paper every variable or difference. What works in one situation does not work in the next.

I didn't see that, but I've got a pole pig transformer outside the front of my home that wreaks havoc with my power. I had the house rebuilt 17 years ago and at that time had all new electric put in. 200 amp service, new wire, outlets, dedicated power to my studio, etc. etc. It's noisy and it's from that damn transformer. I've complained and the power company tells me basically, pound sand. Sucks.

Three undeniable variables that change the perspective of everyone posting in this thread: the right ear, the left ear and the brain between them that’s processing the signals.

My son’s autistic. I can’t speak directly to what he hears but I can tell you he absolutely processes audio in a way that I can’t. He hears crazy amounts of detail without breaking a sweat. He’ll point something out to me in a mix and if I really focus and strain I’ll hear it, but he can’t NOT hear it. That’s part of why he wears earplugs all the time... he can’t take the constant input.

I’m not in the business of diagnosing anyone who claims to hear details that others don’t so let’s not go there. Instead just pointing out that the internal system we use to listen and process audio is complex and varies from person to person.

While I can relate for how sensitive our amps are to level and frequency...
my bs meter has a boundary condition installed for when the subject at hand is close to a point of diminishing returns.
knock yourself out though; you're subsidizing work that will push the frail boundaries of technology.

Three undeniable variables that change the perspective of everyone posting in this thread: the right ear, the left ear and the brain between them that’s processing the signals.

My son’s autistic. I can’t speak directly to what he hears but I can tell you he absolutely processes audio in a way that I can’t. He hears crazy amounts of detail without breaking a sweat. He’ll point something out to me in a mix and if I really focus and strain I’ll hear it, but he can’t NOT hear it. That’s part of why he wears earplugs all the time... he can’t take the constant input.

I’m not in the business of diagnosing anyone who claims to hear details that others don’t so let’s not go there. Instead just pointing out that the internal system we use to listen and process audio is complex and varies from person to person.

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Agreed that listening is complex, and the ability process audio seems to vary from person to person. Must be pretty cool to witness it frequently, thanks for sharing about your son. Could you share a few examples of what kind of detail he can hear easily? Very cool.

With regards to this thread, much of what's been discussed here is noise and distortion related. Even if someone has an amazing ability to hear noise and distortion, it still completely pales in comparison to the we can measure with various available equipment. So when someone proposes to hear something that a measuring equipment would disagree with, human variance or not, it's pretty BS.

Agreed that listening is complex, and the ability process audio seems to vary from person to person. Must be pretty cool to witness it frequently, thanks for sharing about your son. Could you share a few examples of what kind of detail he can hear easily? Very cool.

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Sure... we mess around with GarageBand on his Mac a lot. He likes to develop reproductions of songs he likes, including movie scores. He just hears parts and sounds that I can't unless I turn it way up and stick my ear by the speaker - some small line the oboe is playing, or a random percussion piece, things like that.

It's a blessing and a curse. If me and you sit in a crowded restaurant we have the ability to focus in on our conversation and "shut out" all the noise and other convos around us. He does not. He hears and processes it all. That's why he wears earplugs.

Same thing with visual stimuli. He takes it all in, all the time, can't shut things out. If I took him to a sports bar with 10 TVs in it playing 10 games he'd be able to tell me what's going on in all 10. And probably what the people at the tables around us are discussing as well.

It must be so exhausting for him. That's part of why he doesn't go out much.

Back to the topic: I often wonder in these threads where some guys insist they can hear the difference between a $10 cable and $100 cable and other guys think that's crazy whether there's just some real differences in how our ears and brains process audio causing the disconnects. Just a thought.

Back to the topic: I often wonder in these threads where some guys insist they can hear the difference between a $10 cable and $100 cable and other guys think that's crazy whether there's just some real differences in how our ears and brains process audio causing the disconnects. Just a thought.

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If the 10 dollar cable and 100 dollar cable have similar electrical properties (impedance, capacitance and inductance), length and gauge, I think it is very likely you wouldn't hear much difference, even in a proper listening room and with correct speaker placement and listening position. Get two cables with dissimilar properties, I do indeed believe you can hear a difference, and if you also have a high-end system which is capable of bringing out the tiniest nuances, trying various cables may be useful, or at least interesting.

For people with "normal" systems, the big gains can be had by placing the speakers properly, working on room acoustics, avoiding placing the system components and cables near noisy electric installations and electronic equipment, keeping plugs, connectors and inputs clean - all of which costs nothing. As for cables, there are guidelines for choosing a speaker cable gauge that is sufficient for your system - depends on speaker impedance and length of the cables. Interconnects should preferably be a shielded, coaxial type with low capacitance and not too long. All this stuff is really all about common sense, and sorting out these things will have a far greater impact on the sound quality than upgrading cables, plugs and even system components.

If the 10 dollar cable A and 100 dollar cable have similar electrical properties (impedance, capacitance and inductance), length and gauge, I think it is very likely you wouldn't hear much difference, even in a proper listening room and with correct speaker placement and listening position. Get two cables with dissimilar properties, I do indeed believe you can hear a difference, and if you also have a high-end system which is capable of bringing out the tiniest nuances, trying various cables may be useful, or at least interesting.

For people with "normal" systems, the big gains can be had by placing the speakers properly, working on room acoustics, avoiding placing the system components and cables near noisy electric installations and electronic equipment, keeping plugs, connectors and inputs clean - all of which costs nothing. As for cables, there are guidelines for choosing a speaker cable gauge that is sufficient for your system - depends on speaker impedance and length of the cables. Interconnects should preferably be a shielded, coaxial type with low capacitance and not too long. All this stuff is really all about common sense, and sorting out these things will have a far greater impact on the sound quality than upgrading cables, plugs and even system components.

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My point was that differences in how our brains process audio is likely to ALSO be a factor (not the only factor, just one of many) in the differing opinions expressed here about audio quality. $10 vs $100 cable was just an off the cuff example.

My point was that differences in how our brains process audio is likely to ALSO be a factor (not the only factor, just one of many) in the differing opinions expressed here about audio quality. $10 vs $100 cable was just an off the cuff example.

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Sorry, I missed your point. Oh, yeah, absolutely agree with you. Audio and the perception and processing of it is as subjective as it gets. Age, physical and mental makeup, etc. Hardly surprising though These differences and subjective experiences make it therefore impossible to only rely on physics and mathematics when putting together an audio system. Still good to use common sense though to avoid the snake oil BS.

Same thing with visual stimuli. He takes it all in, all the time, can't shut things out. If I took him to a sports bar with 10 TVs in it playing 10 games he'd be able to tell me what's going on in all 10. And probably what the people at the tables around us are discussing as well.

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Wow... that's nuts! Must be an overload all the time. And props to you fathering on through unusual circumstances.

Back to the topic: I often wonder in these threads where some guys insist they can hear the difference between a $10 cable and $100 cable and other guys think that's crazy whether there's just some real differences in how our ears and brains process audio causing the disconnects. Just a thought.

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I think it's largely because our ear & brain hears what it wants to hear. It sounds like your son does this to a very much lesser degree, but we have very selective hearing. If we want to hear more highs, we'll hear it. If we focus on the bass, we'll hear more of that and forget to process all the detail in the highs. In effect, we have limited bandwidth in our hearing attention span. You probably have noticed this as you're mixing, our ears focus on one thing at a time.

So people go out, buy a new cable that says "more detail," and they'll try to hear more detail. When they try, they will hear more detail. But it's not due to the cable, it's due to the brain's process of hearing. If we ignore this and claim subjective experience as the primary way to judge products, we'll buy into many BS products.

The first part the video on post #95 of this thread talks about this briefly.

Sorry, I missed your point. Oh, yeah, absolutely agree with you. Audio and the perception and processing of it is as subjective as it gets. Age, physical and mental makeup, etc. Hardly surprising though These differences and subjective experiences make it therefore impossible to only rely on physics and mathematics when putting together an audio system. Still good to use common sense though to avoid the snake oil BS.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, his study does not say that even low order harmonics are not as audible. His study suggests that all low order harmonics are not as audible. It seems you're twisting his study to fit your claim.

If your claim is that low order harmonics are imperceptible and does not matter, then it should make sense to you that a sufficiently low level of high order harmonics are also imperceptible and does not matter.
Quality valve & transistor amps achieve this low level of harmonics, of all orders. They have low non-linear distortion period. So you're still not making sense here, you're not drawing good conclusions from his study.

His study also suggests that distortion products that are created downward in frequency are more likely to be perceptible. This is exactly the issue of IMD. A non-linear amp that creates the high level of second order distortion that you claim does not matter, would necessitate a high level of IMD. This high level of IMD would create harmonics in low frequencies, perceptible and undesirable.

Unless GedLee states somewhere specifically to how his study relates to the valve vs. solid-state discussion, you're drawing wrong conclusions from his study. And please let me know if I'm reading the study wrong somewhere, or if there's another study I'm not aware of, would love to learn if so. If not, what you're saying does not make sense.

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funnily enough, Earl Geddes, the author of that study, famously uses a solid state pioneer receiver