What has the breed become? Is it merely a shell of what it once was? I read the posts and I see division between those that wish to argue that the Pit Bull and Am Staff are not the same breed. I see people that say that the Am Staff is a show dog where the Pit is a sporting breed and this somehow defines them as a different breed. Yet my eyes show me something entirely different. Of all the talk that the Pit is sport and the Am Staff is show it all seems to be just talk. From many years of experience in the breed I now see local clubs failing due to lack of participation, fewer sporting opportunities being made available by the clubs barely holding on and where such opportunities do exists less than 1% of owners attend shows and less than 5% of those that attend actually take part in sporting events.

Sure those that go to shows participate in Conformation but where is the value in this event when they have become so politically motivated that often times they do not reflect the quality of the dog being represented but more about who you know? If the Pit Bull is about sport and the Am Staff about show can it not be argued that these glorified politically motivated beauty contests are in fact, when offered by themselves, leading to the demise of the Pit Bull version of the breed if the other 95% of the owners at the shows are not also taking part in some type of sporting event? And what value really is an award in Conformation even when it is won in a non-bias fashion when the dog that wins is really the only dog entered into its Conformation grouping? Should such a dog win simply because it is entered and if so what does this really say about Conformation? As a child I won every race where I was the only one running yet this never made me a pro-athlete nor did it attest to my abilities at running, my conditioning, style, form or technique. Was Colby right when he said that time will erase the breed in terms of ability and that it will at some point just be a shell of what it once was? From all indications this seems to be so.

So whose fault is it that the breed has come to this point? Is it the registries for failing to promote and sanction more events to highlight the skills of the breed? Sure people can argue the point that fighting is not legal and can fall on the tired argument that the only way to really game test is through the fighting pit. Is this not however just a copout or is this reflective of just how little imagination the world and registries have when it comes to testing the drive, determination and don’t give up attitude that are really at the heart of the term “game”.

Is it the fault of local clubs who have failed to market themselves well enough to pull in more members? Who have failed to offer more opportunities of sporting events despite registries lack of sanctioning these? Who have failed to educate their members in the activities available? Who perpetuate a fear of failure by not embracing more participation through training?

Is it the fault of owners? As a society have we really just become so lazy that the dogs we own are merely just a reflection of ourselves? Has it come to a point where the only satisfaction we can get as owners is by trash talking others who also love the breed. Have we become so divided on things like color, registry affiliation, pedigrees, or the difference between Pits and Am Staffs that we have caused a situation where all feel slighted to some degree and thus few want to participate in activities for fear of judgment?

Now on the other side I see the Am Staff. The supposed show dog and admittedly I do not see many active in this class either but what I do see according to the argument that the Pit is sport and Am Staff is show that the opposite seems to be more the reality. I see champion Am Staffs in Shutzhund, Agility, Weight Pull, Dock Diving and many other sporting events. If these are truly the exceptions then one has to ponder why are the exceptions outshining what is supposed to be the norm for the Pit Bull?

I happen to love the breed regardless of whether you choose to call it a Pit Bull or Am Staff. I have dedicated much of my life to its positive promotion, educating people on the illogical nature of breed specific legislation, helped train in Service Dog work for the breed and supported unity as opposed to divide, which in away sadly seems to be one of the few points, which draws owners together. In my dedication to the breed I have been an active promoter and have expanded my writing and marketing skills into the development of American Super Dog a TV series in the first stages of production.

In wrapping up this post the final and most important questions are where is your role in the breed? Are you going to be the fad owner or does the breed really own you at heart? Do you wish to see the breed in its full glory or is the shell alone good enough? When you talk about the ability is this based on the perception of ability simply because of the name or is it something you can back up with proof?

If your Pit Bull / Am Staff has what it takes to bring substantive honor and true prestige to the name I implore you to help us show this to the world, foster unity instead of divide and to submit evidence of this by uploading your videos for consideration in our TV series to http://www.AmericanSuperDog.com. We are looking for all manner of positive video but especially are encouraging that of a sporting and training nature. If you are a trainer upload a short video on training and let us know and we will also include a free banner for you on the site as a resource for others.

Where do you get your statistics, and what is the comparison to other breeds? I know a lot of people with dachshunds, and not many of them do any competition sporting events. Same goes for labradors, goldens, etc. What type of clubs are you referring to? I'm not clear.

On my side of things, I am seeing more and more pit bull type dogs running in flyball in our region...participation has gone up, not down around here. Most are rescues however...and are usually just labeled "pit bull".

"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw

I agree with Red Queen, here in Maine, I rarely see Amstaffs. Most events I've gone to are UKC, and I don't see AmStaffs going both ways, and my APBT isn't allowed to go AKC. In these events my older APBT was in conformation with always 5 or 6 others. In these UKC events I see a handful in the conformation, but most are in Weight Pull or Rally events, for fun, and are not breeding dogs. I see UKC as more open minded and more rescued labeled pit bulls are involved, aka All Americans. I have only been to one AKC event where i was welcomed with my 'All American' for Rally. She is however papered APBT. Is this the club conflict you are referring to?

My associate trainer has an AKC amstaff but enters in more events that are UKC, or APDT not AKC, and not sure as to what she is registered as, is only in sporting events, not conformation.

Ryder - Rescue APBT Panser on a Roll - APBT (American Bully?)Gretchen - the red headed cat that thinks shes a dogPrudence - the new cat on the block to put the dogs in their place!Punchlines Better Than Lojac - APBT (RIP)

TheRedQueen wrote:Where do you get your statistics, and what is the comparison to other breeds? I know a lot of people with dachshunds, and not many of them do any competition sporting events. Same goes for labradors, goldens, etc. What type of clubs are you referring to? I'm not clear.

On my side of things, I am seeing more and more pit bull type dogs running in flyball in our region...participation has gone up, not down around here. Most are rescues however...and are usually just labeled "pit bull".

Statistics I get from field research. I attend as many shows as can and observe the amount of participation in each event. As for comparison to other breeds there is none. As for other breeds I think you may be correct but I do not know as I have always devoted myself to the Pit Bull and can only speak for it. My passion is for this breed. I however do have a competition worthy couch warmer Shih Tzu. While I love her she just does not invoke the same kind of passion that I have had for the Pit Bull, which I have culminated over a lifetime. While I take you at your word in regards to other breeds comparatively the AKC is far more involved in holding events than registries and clubs that deal with the Pit Bull. The UKC would come in second but the clubs they sanction are seemingly floating like rocks.

To help clarify registries do not typically hold events. It is local clubs that hold events but registries that sanction them. As far as being more active in flyball and other non-club activities this may be true to some degree but most likely due to current Pit Bull clubs either failing or dropping activities they once held. Weight pull is probably the best example of an activity being dropped. Many clubs that once offered this no longer do. Another example is treadmill races. Pit Bull owners are desperately seeking alternatives so it would be a natural progression for them to seek other organizations that offer activities.

Pit♥Bull wrote:Just spamming his site again

Are any of your posts more than one liner post pollution? Now I see how you get your high post count. No substance just belittling the efforts of others. Instead of being pessimistic how about adding some constructive comments. No one forces you to participate in the show itself of you do not wish but if you wish to participate in a post maybe you could start by answering questions that were asked?

dlynne1123 wrote:I agree with Red Queen, here in Maine, I rarely see Amstaffs. Most events I've gone to are UKC, and I don't see AmStaffs going both ways, and my APBT isn't allowed to go AKC. In these events my older APBT was in conformation with always 5 or 6 others. In these UKC events I see a handful in the conformation, but most are in Weight Pull or Rally events, for fun, and are not breeding dogs. I see UKC as more open minded and more rescued labeled pit bulls are involved, aka All Americans. I have only been to one AKC event where i was welcomed with my 'All American' for Rally. She is however papered APBT. Is this the club conflict you are referring to?

My associate trainer has an AKC amstaff but enters in more events that are UKC, or APDT not AKC, and not sure as to what she is registered as, is only in sporting events, not conformation.

Not really sure what you mean by club conflict. If this is in response about the questions I have about where the clubs role is basically from our experience we are seeing local clubs fail and dropping activities. Many of these clubs are citing the reasons for this as lack of participation. We are wondering from the club participants perspective is the reduced participation due to the loss of events, lack of events, lack of marketing from the club or lack of encouragement to participate in activities such as weight pull due to lack of encouragement and training and thus a fear of not doing well on the participants side due to lack of knowledge on the activity. No one wants to seem like a failure especially in a crowd. Could the clubs be doing something more to show that not succeeding is not a failing experience but a learning experience? One of the issues that I think exacerbates the situation is that many clubs charge per activity. Conformation $10, Weight Pull $10, Treadmill Race $10. There is not much really involved in Pit Bull Conformation so it does not really reflect negatively on the owners (in their perception) if they do not place. In sporting activities however there is involvement and not performing well in these does invoke a sense of failure and/or humiliation on the owners part. This is a big reason why participation in Conformation is much greater than participation in actual activities. We think a good first step from a club perspective would be to charge a flat rate at show entry and then the Pits and owners could participate in as many events as they wish. This way you are not loosing $10 because you enter an event that you are not trained in but instead it changes the dynamic in the owners mind to trying to get as much value for their entry fee as possible. Kind of like going to a local fair. If you buy individual tickets for rides you are going to ride less rides than if you buy an unlimited pass and can ride as many as often as you wish.

There are horrible examples of dogs of every breed in every registry. My dog Riggs is dual registered, and his littermates have been finished in AKC conformation, he's finished in UKC.

There is not much really involved in Pit Bull Conformation so it does not really reflect negatively on the owners (in their perception) if they do not place.

Have you ever actually shown a dog in conformation? Because it's a pain in the ass when you have a high drive dog that doesn't like to stand still, especially when there are other drivey dogs in the ring. You actually do have to train your dog to do it, it's expensive, and you don't get any points towards your championship if your dog is the only one in the ring.

There is no way that a club would charge a flat fee for people to put their dogs in multiple sanctioned events at a show. First of all, each event has specific fees, judges to be paid and other expenses. Second, many offer discounts for preregistering, and for multiple registrations, but showing in anything costs money.

Statistics I get from field research. I attend as many shows as can and observe the amount of participation in each event.

So... you don't really have any data to back up what you're saying? Just what you've observed at the shows you were at? That's kind of all opinion, isn't it ?

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

so you're just making up stats...based on what you've seen in your area...in one specific type of club (which I'm still not sure of what type that is)...

Please review the original post. There was no mention of other breeds. All stats are developed through observation and research. Yes this is one specific type club, those dedicated to the Pit Bull and Am Staff. This is not unique to my area but is based on research nationwide. If you research Pit Bull clubs you will see this to be the case. Here are the top four examples from the ADBA site. http://www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fpid=12&pg=12

Southern California APBTC -http://www.adbadog.com/southerncal/p_home.asp - "This past year, we have been holding conformation shows only, no weight pulls, in conjunction with the Golden State APBTC. This is due to lack of funds and people willing to do the hard work involved in running a weight pull; judging it, paperwork, cart loaders and handlers, not to mention storing and transporting the weight pull track and weights necessary to hold a successful pull."

Going to dog events is not doing "field research" and you do not have anything that could even remotely be called "statistics". Dressing up what you are doing with scientific jargon to create an air of false legitimacy doesn't change that.

I suspect the real intent of your post was just to draw visitors to your website, which is fine, though I'm not sure what your project is designed to do. It seems like you have a lot of show but very little go.

Demo Dick

"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge

Please review the original post. There was no mention of other breeds. All stats are developed through observation and research. Yes this is one specific type club, those dedicated to the Pit Bull and Am Staff. This is not unique to my area but is based on research nationwide.

I did review the original post, I read it three times to be exact, and skimmed it a few more...because I still didn't understand. Now I have a college degree, my father is a professor...so I do have a clue about reading and proofreading...and your post still makes little sense to me.

If you had just said..."in my opinion" or "generally"...then I wouldn't be nitpicking...but since you included percentages, I had to ask. This is the reason that people are leary of trusting statistics...because people like you just pull them out of thin air. Just because you want to prove something (still not sure what you're exactly trying to prove...after wading through your wordy post)...does not mean you get to make crap up.

"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw

Are any of your posts more than one liner post pollution? Now I see how you get your high post count. No substance just belittling the efforts of others. Instead of being pessimistic how about adding some constructive comments. No one forces you to participate in the show itself of you do not wish but if you wish to participate in a post maybe you could start by answering questions that were asked?

Why would I want to waste my time on a spammer. Your time could be better spent improving your pathetic website rather than spamming for membership.

Please review the original post. There was no mention of other breeds. All stats are developed through observation and research. Yes this is one specific type club, those dedicated to the Pit Bull and Am Staff. This is not unique to my area but is based on research nationwide.

I did review the original post, I read it three times to be exact, and skimmed it a few more...because I still didn't understand. Now I have a college degree, my father is a professor...so I do have a clue about reading and proofreading...and your post still makes little sense to me.

If you had just said..."in my opinion" or "generally"...then I wouldn't be nitpicking...but since you included percentages, I had to ask. This is the reason that people are leary of trusting statistics...because people like you just pull them out of thin air. Just because you want to prove something (still not sure what you're exactly trying to prove...after wading through your wordy post)...does not mean you get to make crap up.

It's a well known fact that 93.672% of all statistics are pulled out of thin air.

Demo Dick

"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge

SisMorphine wrote:What sort of clubs are you talking about? Are you talking about OB clubs? Sports clubs in general? Or specifically AKC/UKC affiliated clubs?

As a member of a dissolved club, reducing fees does not bring more peoPle but limits the money a club makes on an event. As former club secretary, event insurance and membership fees keep it running. We had to increase membership fees to accomodate insurance just to hold events to break even. Venues are competing for weekends as it is. Being a UKC club in itself is trying with requirements to stay active. In NE where it's hard to find events we regularly travel 4 plus hours for one qualifying run or two rally runs. It's the love if the sports that brings the people, not the conformation. As most entries are neutered rescued dogs.

Ryder - Rescue APBT Panser on a Roll - APBT (American Bully?)Gretchen - the red headed cat that thinks shes a dogPrudence - the new cat on the block to put the dogs in their place!Punchlines Better Than Lojac - APBT (RIP)

I suggest you go out to straight working events. Stop worrying about whether it is an APBT club or an AmStaff club or if it is AKC or UKC or what the heck ever else. Just go to a working show, period. Ever been to some of the working shows that are advertised as being for the American Bulldog? There are undoubtedly APBT that show up there and compete in the events being held.

When I lived in FL I went a few ADBA shows and while they weren't huge or anything, there was good attendance and I always saw dogs competing in (and learning about) weight pull. Never saw any protection work at these shows, but that is their perogative.

As for weight pull, agility, protection, flyball or anything else being anything close to testing for gameness like the pit....that's a laugh. They still test aspects of the dog for sure, I won't argue that. I mean, that's part of the point - to test your dog. But your dog's performance in any other venue will never tell you what a game test would.

TheRedQueen wrote:I did review the original post, I read it three times to be exact, and skimmed it a few more...because I still didn't understand. Now I have a college degree, my father is a professor...so I do have a clue about reading and proofreading...and your post still makes little sense to me.

If you had just said..."in my opinion" or "generally"...then I wouldn't be nitpicking...but since you included percentages, I had to ask. This is the reason that people are leary of trusting statistics...because people like you just pull them out of thin air. Just because you want to prove something (still not sure what you're exactly trying to prove...after wading through your wordy post)...does not mean you get to make crap up.

How about this "after a significant amount of research and years of going to Pit Bull club shows based on my personal observation"? I do not think personal observation and research negates relevancy.

In regards to not understanding instead of "nitpicking" (using your own words there) I think if you would answer some of the questions posed in the original post you would have better clarity on the point of the post. I did think that I help clarify things in my previous post with all the sources I posted. I think by providing not just the source but actual links for verification this helps prove that I am not just making things up.

How about we meet in the middle answer 4 questions posted in the original post and I will clarify 4 points you are having a hard time understanding.

Pit♥Bull wrote:Why would I want to waste my time on a spammer. Your time could be better spent improving your pathetic website rather than spamming for membership.

Once again one liner post pollution. How are your posts any more than spam? You promote your own business in your posts? Seems like the pot calling the kettle black. It is obvious you are a person full of issues against what others are doing yet have no solutions of your own.

dlynne1123 wrote:

SisMorphine wrote:What sort of clubs are you talking about? Are you talking about OB clubs? Sports clubs in general? Or specifically AKC/UKC affiliated clubs?

As a member of a dissolved club, reducing fees does not bring more peoPle but limits the money a club makes on an event. As former club secretary, event insurance and membership fees keep it running. We had to increase membership fees to accomodate insurance just to hold events to break even. Venues are competing for weekends as it is. Being a UKC club in itself is trying with requirements to stay active. In NE where it's hard to find events we regularly travel 4 plus hours for one qualifying run or two rally runs. It's the love if the sports that brings the people, not the conformation. As most entries are neutered rescued dogs.

Pit Bull specific clubs. Mostly clubs sanctioned by registries such as the UKC and ADBA. In my previous post I provided examples with links.

As a member and Secretary of a dissolved club maybe you can provide more insight as to why it dissolved? I was not saying to reduce fees. I was proposing to create a single cost structure by charging one all encompassing fee instead of an individual fee per activity. I may be wrong but I do not think offering more activities at a show would change the insurance rates either?

I think you may mean love of the breed that brings people to events not love of the sport because it is the sporting aspects that seem (under my personal observation and research) to not be doing well while Conformation is doing just fine. This is substantiated in the links I provided in my last post. Maybe the dynamic is different for all breed clubs. I do however think if more sporting activities were being offered and supported more by the clubs through education and training that they would in fact create greater draw. If I misunderstand your point please elaborate. Having direct experience you are likely more qualified than most on this forum to provide more information as to why clubs are struggling.

Also please elaborate on this statement from your post. "Being a UKC club in itself is trying with requirements to stay active. "

I suggest you go out to straight working events. Stop worrying about whether it is an APBT club or an AmStaff club or if it is AKC or UKC or what the heck ever else. Just go to a working show, period. Ever been to some of the working shows that are advertised as being for the American Bulldog? There are undoubtedly APBT that show up there and compete in the events being held.

When I lived in FL I went a few ADBA shows and while they weren't huge or anything, there was good attendance and I always saw dogs competing in (and learning about) weight pull. Never saw any protection work at these shows, but that is their perogative.

As for weight pull, agility, protection, flyball or anything else being anything close to testing for gameness like the pit....that's a laugh. They still test aspects of the dog for sure, I won't argue that. I mean, that's part of the point - to test your dog. But your dog's performance in any other venue will never tell you what a game test would.

Try answering some questions within the post and I think it will have some clarity for you. If you have specific questions I will be happy to answer them.

My interest has been exclusively in the Pit Bull/Am Staff breed, which is why I have stuck to going to these type clubs more so than other more breed inclusive events.

I do agree that clubs have the prerogative to offer what they want but I think many are not doing as well as they could be because they are not offering more activities as well as education and training in these added options.

I am definitely not proposing that any activity will determine level of gameness as did the fighting pit. But since the fight will never be legalized I would like to see other alternatives to testing the breeds sporting ability and in this help shine light on its game aspect. I do think that different activities have value in helping test and prove different aspects of gameness and that through proving in multiple events we can help retain the integrity of the breed to some degree.

Pit♥Bull wrote:Why would I want to waste my time on a spammer. Your time could be better spent improving your pathetic website rather than spamming for membership.

Once again one liner post pollution. How are your posts any more than spam? You promote your own business in your posts? Seems like the pot calling the kettle black. It is obvious you are a person full of issues against what others are doing yet have no solutions of your own.

I see no business promoted, I have a link to a non profit organization in my signature that provides more service to animals and Pitbulls in one day than you will provide in a lifetime.