Giltric:Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?

Of course they did. You know when your unemployment runs out and your sick of living in your father-in-laws basement, well you go find something that pays even if you have to invent it your self. Then as you work this job as a private contractor you eventually get enough work for two people. Well then you become a job creator.

Mrbogey:If you want to go with the analogy of an asteroid, we built a 100 meter long asteroid and shot it at ourself to hit in 2013 while a 10 mile asteroid will hit us in 2035. If we can't deal with the small asteroid we created then were boned over the larger one.

If we don't deal with it now then one day we'll we'll be forced like Greece. Its not about today's finances. Its about the unsustainability of the federal budget.

\manufacture crises don't count\\all it takes are minor adjustments to keep SS and Medicare solvent\\\but who wants to do that when you can F it up now, so you can profit from the panic you generate tomorrow

I'd go with ten thousand folks getting haircuts, getting their oil changed in their cars, buying groceries, calling the plumber because their shiatter is clogged, paying for electricity/water/other utilities, going to the doctor for a check up, getting lunch at the deli, buying a soda at the gas station while the gas is pumping, getting a gym membership but never going, etc, rather than buying chinese consumer electronics, but yeah, your point is still valid.

I like John Steward, but he is wrong on this one. The fiscal cliff was a compromise to deal with the bigger issue of what happens around 2030-2040 when the Baby Boomers are to expensive to keep alive, but nobody really wants to form death panels for Grammy.

The cliff is not a planet killing asteroid, it is a moderate reform that will be a drag on the economy. Unfortunately we have one party in this country that does not want to take on fiscal responsibility for the last 40 years of borrowing our way to prosperity.

Sucks for me and you, but the reality is if we don't double everyone's taxes, close the deficit, and pay down the debt there wont be an economy left to worry about around 2035,

zedster:Otherwise Just Fine: This is getting predictable. Politicians stonewall until the market starts to tank, then come to an agreement and the market recovers. It's a good opportunity to make money off a crap situation.

Retail is scared this will kill this holiday season, that should keep some pressure on to solve this fast. Plus you have the defense establishment not wanting to get hit with the cuts. I have a feeling there will be more outside pressure on the GOP then on the Dems to solve this.

From the L. A. Times:Merchants raked in an estimated $59.1 billion in sales from Thanksgiving Day through Sunday, up from $52.4 billion a year earlier, as millions flocked to stores and browsed online, according to the National Retail Federation. Spending per shopper jumped 6% to $423.

The US should spend a minimum of $2T in pure education and infrastructure spending over the next 10 years combine with gradual taxes increases to pre-Reagan era tax rates. This type of approach would balance the budget faster than anything being discussed today.

I agree. If we could peg the wage level for that spending at today's median income, you'd get some support for that. However, the Teacher's and Construction trades would never allow that, so our modern day WPA will never happen. Not because Republicans would never fund it, but because the Democrat Labor base would never allow a laborer to paint a bridge for $20 per hour.

Current Davis Bacon/Prevailing Wage Laws, by all means, look into them. Find out just what a NJ painter on a government funded project NEEDS to be paid.

I don't know what third world shiathole of the US you live in, but $20 an hour really isn't that much money. I make considerably more than that, and given my current single status, I would say that I'm far from comfortable, however I am well off. these are the exact types of jobs we should be creating.

I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving.....

And what % of your yearly income was that?Poor people spend 100% of their income. Too bad they have less than 1% of the money or the economy would be going great guns.If the top 1% would make a commitment to spend 100% of their income (not asking for a decrease in capitol) for a year or two, we wouldn't have nearly the economic problem that we do.

DRFS Rich:Dr Dreidel:>I also caught an interesting fact on WTOP yesterday evening - apparently, the US is one of the only first-world countries (if not the only one) that still has a mortgage interest deduction. Yes, it'd suck if we got rid of it, especially for new homeowners, but it appears that the rest of the developed world does just fine.

The M.I. deduction saves me a grand or two in taxes each year. I would hate to see it go, but if it's going to substantially improve the economy and our fiscal future I can accept it.

What I can't accept is discussion of it this late in the tax season. If this is going to happen, it needs to be announced before April 16th for the following tax year.

If you're going to pull the rug out from a lot of middle-class folks on this, they need time to prepare accordingly.

It has to phased out over multiple years. People will need to plan and adapt their finances.

It'll also be good for potential homeowners, as the tax benefit helps those who are already established by taking money out of the pockets of non-homeowners. It doesn't so much help people buy a home so much as help them buy more expensive homes. The market will adapt to sell; it has to.

Home prices are still in a bubble have far to fall. They need to fall. They don't need to crash & splatter, but they need to fall.

Giltric:Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?

I know you're kiding, but that's the most galling thing to me about he "JOb Creator" label: ALL spending creates jobs, by creating demand, and frankly the rich do a poorer job of it than normal folks. Buying a $100,000 does not create 10x the automotive manufacturing jobs as the guy buying a $10k car. A $5,000 bespoke suit does not require the employ of 50x of the number of garmet workers as the $100 version being mass-produced for the Men's Warehouse.

In fact, dollar for dollar, you know who the REAL job creators are? The poorest of the Poor. Studies have shown that for every $1 you add to a food stamp benefit you create about $1.15 in new spending in the economy. Spend that same $1 on tax cuts for the top income brackets and only about $0.30 gets spent.

qorkfiend:DRFS Rich: Dr Dreidel:>I also caught an interesting fact on WTOP yesterday evening - apparently, the US is one of the only first-world countries (if not the only one) that still has a mortgage interest deduction. Yes, it'd suck if we got rid of it, especially for new homeowners, but it appears that the rest of the developed world does just fine.

The M.I. deduction saves me a grand or two in taxes each year. I would hate to see it go, but if it's going to substantially improve the economy and our fiscal future I can accept it.

What I can't accept is discussion of it this late in the tax season. If this is going to happen, it needs to be announced before April 16th for the following tax year.

If you're going to pull the rug out from a lot of middle-class folks on this, they need time to prepare accordingly.

I think that if they do it, it'll be phased out over a fairly long timespan, something like five or ten years, so as to avoid exactly the kind of problem you describe.

Everyone knows that home ownership is a cornerstone of the "American Dream". It is well known that home ownership creates more stable neighborhoods. It also is a tangible "buy-in" into society, and having that buy in makes social contracts work. There is no way the federal government is going to destroy one of the few remaining benefits to owning your own home, not when there are corporate tax loopholes out there so glaring that billion-dollar companies get away with paying no taxes of any kind.

Otherwise Just Fine:Usually, yes. Speculation is bad, investing based on value is good. But do you really think the GOP will cut a deal before the markets force them to?

Hard to say. At this point they are playing poker and may simply be bluffing. What if they aren't as dumb as they appear. If they know they will be blamed for a failure to compromise (which they will) they might just be "negotiating" by acting tuff right up until they say uncle.

I wouldn't bet my money on which it is. But I guess it has been a while since anybody lost money betting on GOP stupidity.

I've heard a couple of people mention means testing for Social Security and Medicare.

I cry bullshait.

If I've paid into Social Security my entire working life, I get my social security. If I've paid FICA my entire working life, I get my Medicare. The number of rich people "on the dole" is nowhere near the drain on the system that making every senior fill out proof of income (or lack thereof.)

FlashHarry:this is 100 percent the fault of the republicans. one. hundred. percent.

if they would have simply passed the debt ceiling raise - as they have dozens of times before - there would be no "fiscal cliff." the debt ceiling raise simply authorizes congress to pay for spending it has already passed. it is what's known as a "pro forma" vote - a formality. or so it was up until last year, when republicans decided to hold the nation hostage by threatening not to pay our bills. and what did we get for their farking childish petulance? a credit downgrade, a market drop, and the fiscal farking cliff.

fark the republicans. fark all of them. they OWN this.

And don't forget, the "Debt Ceiling" is itself a completely fictitious construct that could be swept away with an act of congress.

Time to go off the cliff and end the Bush tax cuts that have helped put us in this hole. And if being only $600B in the red next year is the equivalent of an asteroid hitting us, then we're all screwed, so we might as well get this over with quickly.