Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Dec 01 2012)

The Knicks may finally be marching toward 50 wins and beyond this year and it starts with beating hapless clubs like the Washington Wizards. The Knicks 108-87 victory improved their record to 11-4 and 6-0 at Madison Square Garden.

Commissioner David Stern fined the Spurs $250,000 for sending home four of their starters before a game in Miami, raising a significant question for bosses everywhere: when is it unreasonable to give someone the day off?

Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili and Danny Green did not go with the Spurs to Miami for a nationally televised game Thursday. On Friday, Commissioner David Stern showed his displeasure with the move.

Antawn Jamison scored 33 points while leading an outstanding game by the Lakers’ reserves, and Dwight Howard had 28 points and 20 rebounds before hitting Los Angeles’ 17th 3-pointer in the final seconds of a 122-103 victory over the Denver Nuggets on Friday night.

Alexey Shved scored 10 of his 16 points in the fourth quarter and Kevin Love overcame a nasty stomach bug to collect 15 points and 14 rebounds in the Minnesota Timberwolves’ 95-85 victory over the Milwaukee Bucks on Friday night.

Commissioner David Stern says in a statement Friday that the Spurs “did a disservice to the league and our fansâ? when they didn’t bring Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili or Danny Green to Miami on Thursday.

50 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Dec 01 2012)”

3) If the hypothesis is that each player is responsible for his own stats, then why should there be a disparity between WP48 between positions? Why should you need position adjustment?Are guards less win-producing than centers/PFs in terms of wins?

Yes. Guards are less win-producing than centers. That’s sort of one of the main points of Berri’s conclusion: that the things that a good center does on the court are more important than the things a good SG does on the course. This is exactly the same as the way WAR adjusts for position in baseball: we understand that a person who plays catcher should be evaluated against other catchers, rather than, say, a first-baseman. Therefore a catcher who hits 20 HR (and I’m simplifying here) will be more valuable than a 1B who hits 25 HR because of the opportunity cost.

That’s why Berri adjusts for position: The average value for Adj. P48 is 0.217. But this value is not the same across all positions. As noted in The Wages of Wins (and in other writings before that book appeared), centers and power forwards get rebounds and tend not to commit turnovers. Guards are the opposite. The nature of basketball is that teams need guards and big men. Given nature of the game, players should be evaluated relative to their position averages. These are reported in Table Five.

To incorporate the position averages we need to identify the position each player plays. For most players this is easy. For a few, though, it can be more challenging. It is important to note that positions in basketball are not like baseball or football. In baseball and football we can tell position by where a player appears on the field. In basketball, though, position designations are more arbitrary. Consequently, two analysts looking at the same team may designate positions differently.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: Yes. Guards are less win-producing than centers. That’s sort of one of the main points of Berri’s conclusion

Which is precisely the kind of circular logic that most people have a problem with — Berri has concluded that centers produce more wins, so he adjusts accordingly, which proves that it’s true. Another arbitrary opinion presented as absolute fact.

Great to see how many 4th quarters Tyson and Melo are able to sit. Can’t get hurt sitting on the bench watching Chris Copeland and James White mop up. (White is extremely quick, btw).

The Nets game would have been a great win but wasn’t as humiliating a loss as was portrayed here in the recap. We were within one made free throw of winning. Felton had a bad game. He bounced back nicely against the Bucks and so did Woodson. Prigs / Felton back court did a nice impression of Kidd / Felton. Kudos to Grunwald for building maybe the deepest team in the league.

The Nets are good, and I agree with a poster who said he hated them more than he expected to. I just hate that they want NYC. They were full strength the other night. Amar’e will make us a better team when he gets back. All arguments to the contrary are total BS. It seems like we’re very good AND improving.

We’re better this season and it seems like PHI, BOS, MIL, and IND have all taken steps backwards (and/or have health issues).

Are we gonna win 60? Maybe not. 50+? Probably Championship? Maybe not. Punchers chance against the Heat in the ECF? Maybe so! I’ll take it. After a decade of terrible basketball this season has been really great.

I agree danvt. Very, very happy so far. I am also looking forward to Stat running the P&R on a second unit with Prigs or whoever is initiating. I think Ruru’s predictions about Stat are closer to the truth than the naysayers (I was one). Being able to sit and rotate players is a huge plus, particularly relative to defensive energy. Think about this a second—Our defense has been pretty good for the most part and I would argue that Shump is our second best defender and the best at getting around a pick. So I look forward to his return big time. Also, worth noting is that while Stat is pretty poor man on defender, he really is a decent help defender and can block a shot, one thing we lack. One last point, Camby remains an enigma to me. Any answers?

johnno: Which is precisely the kind of circular logic that most people have a problem with — Berri has concluded that centers produce more wins, so he adjusts accordingly, which proves that it’s true.Another arbitrary opinion presented as absolute fact.

So we should discount WAR for doing the same thing? Concluding that one position is more valuable than another based on average production?

Yeah, Judge, I don’t get the Camby doghouse thing, other than he really pissed Woody off by reporting out of shape. Maybe Camby said or did something in practice to piss Woodson off. Maybe he is trade bait, he certainly has value. I think the X-factor has been Sheed, seems like he has taken over the role that was earmarked for Camby when he was acquired.

I am also very happy, but my main reservation is that we are very dependent on the mercurial JR. I just don’t trust him to be in a virtual starter’s role come playoff time. Maybe Shump is the answer, but his offensive decision-making is questionable too.

I think with Camby, Sheed and Thomas we were always looking at two of the three being DNP-CD’s. With Stat out we’ve needed to rely on them more and the results have been mostly positive except when Marcus couldn’t keep Reggie Evans off the offensive boards the other night. Marcus has always been injury prone. His lack of minutes has to do, in my opinion, with being out of game shape based on the calf injury in October. I think the lack of run has to do with Woodson not wanting him re-injuring himself and setting himself back. Lately, with all the road games, I imagine it’s been majority walk throughs and shoot arounds and not a lot of scrimmaging. So, it’s going to be hard for Marcus to catch up.

Maybe he’ll be effective by the middle of the season. Either way, I think it was worth taking a flier on him. Thomas and ‘Sheed seem rusty as well but they look closer to their true selves than Marcus has.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: So we should discount WAR for doing the same thing? Concluding that one position is more valuable than another based on average production?

I understand the role dirrerentiation as WoW considers it, but have a bigger issue with its contention that system, teammates, role, coach, opposition, etc. don’t matter much because there is a central tendency that the data points gravitate towards. While the players you often refer to as outliers because they don’t fit the model are really within the normal standard deviation-based distribution.

I can see how a player like Faried will tend to have a reasonably high WP/48 no matter where he plays because he does things that are very valuable in that metric, such as offensive rebounding and low-volume, high efficiency scoring. But in the wrong role (go-to scorer, perimeter shooter, e.g.) he might actually get in the way of winning.

Again, if wins were based on rebounding and shooting percentage only (which make up most of WP) Melo would probably surpass Faried on that metric. He has other things to do that Faried is simply incapable of doing, so they really can’t be compared.

What I’m trying to say is that ROLE is much more important than position. High-usage players should only be compared to other high-usage players, high AST% players should be compared to other high ast% players, etc.

daJudge: Also, worth noting is that while Stat is pretty poor man on defender, he really is a decent help defender and can block a shot, one thing we lack.

I love Woodson as a coach. He really understands how to get guys to buy in. Look at the way Melo and JR passed the ball last night. I don’t think Stat is ever going to take charges like Jared Jeffries but I think he’ll certainly improve on defense. Maybe coach can get him to hit the boards a little more as well, which really is our achilles heal as a team. Stat is a tremendous athlete and nothing should be impossible for him. With a defined role and clear goals he should round out our roster nicely. Woodson has been very good at finding effective lineups. He’ll be pragmatic and not dogmatic like D’Antoni. Stat can only be a net plus.

I’m a little more uncertain about Shumpert. Yes, he’s a plus defender but offensively he’s poor. Brewer has been wonderful on O and D, and Prigioni is coming on. I love the double PG backcourts for ball movement and expert handling. I see Stats role a lot more clearly than Shumps.

Was at the game last night. A poor Wizards fan was so drunk by the third quarter (all decked out in DC/Wizards gear) that he went to the wrong seat (not even in the same row or same side of MSG) and got booted. Don’t blame him though, if I were a Wizards fan, I’d have been drunk before halftime — they may just challenge the BobCats record (adjusting for an 82 game season).

Agree for the most part, dan. However, I do think that Shump will eventually turn out to be the better offensive player than Brewer, and I am not as optimistic about Amare.

On D, he seems to take a split second too long to process situations, and he stands too straight up when guarding, allowing even slower players to get an angle on him on their strong side. Not sure how much these things can be changed at this stage. His reactions as a help defender are very erratic, he gets caught flat-footed way too often. When he gets there, he is a very good shot-blocker, though.

I think Amare will still be very effective in the P&R. However, he likes to iso from the elbow/wing as well, but he’s not anywhere clsoe to as good as Melo is anymore at this. As he loses explosiveness (and with his back and knee issues, it is highly likely that he doesn’t get it back) then I worry about him committing offensive fouls and turnovers when he goes strong to the basket. When he first got here, he used to absolutely destroy opposing C’s in this way, and many PFs as well. Not sure he will ever be able to do that anymore. This will be even more of a concern if he’s not hitting the 15-18 footer.

Still, Amare’s a proud warrior, and Kidd, Felton and Prigioni should help define a niche for him where he can be a big offensive plus for us.

I’m probably too optimistic because of this great start, but the challenges of fitting Amare in despite his defensive problems and of fitting Shump in despite his offensive problems seem overblown. I don’t have huge expectations about either one become more well rounded but they are both great as certain things and finding out how to make the most of those while minimizing their weaknesses seems pretty doable.

I know I’ve said this before and got shot down statistically, which I reviewed, but I still think Shump has lots of upside offensively if healthy. His jumper is not ugly and he is wicked quick to the hoop. Sure, he had trouble finishing, but he was a rook and a damn good one. Also, relative to Shump and JR’s decision-making issues–I am optimistic on two levels: First, they are not in a primary decision maker role thanks to Felton, Prigs, Kidd and to some extent Melo. Shump and JR are left to occupy a more traditional 2, or even a 3 role. Second, which is highly related, they are in a relatively simple offensive system. In that system their roles are more distilled and defined and you can already see synergy between JR and the others, such as Novak. Certainly part of this is attributable to Woody. I am more than cautiously optimistic at this point.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: So we should discount WAR for doing the same thing? Concluding that one position is more valuable than another based on average production?

No we should conclude that teams need different types of production, and that even if some types of production are more important than others, you still need a diverse set of talents to win basketball games. A guard who gets 6 rebounds per 36 minutes hasn’t added more value than a center who gets 6 per 36 minutes, he’s just adding value that his position doesn’t usually provide. While it is much easier to find a center who can get more than 6 rebounds than a guard who can get more than 6 rebounds, the guard’s main responsibilities are usually going to be playmaking and spacing the floor, so if he’s deficient in those talents being an above average rebounder for a guard isn’t helping his team any.

Simply put, it doesn’t matter that much how well your guards rebound compared to how well your big men rebound. If an incredible rebounding guard gives you 6 rebounds a game and an average one gives you 4 rebounds, the incredible rebounder isn’t adding much value. Likewise if an elite passing center gets 4 assists per game instead of the usual 2, it’s not as valuable as a guard getting 6 assists since he’s not bringing the ball up and running the pick and roll. A good passing guard helps me a lot more than a good passing center, and a good rebounding center helps me more than a good rebounding guard. So if Landry Fields is the best rebounding guard in the league but can’t shoot, or dribble, he’s a fucking worthless player

daJudge:
I know I’ve said this before and got shot down statistically, which I reviewed, but I still think Shump has lots of upside offensively if healthy.His jumper is not ugly and he is wicked quick to the hoop.Sure, he had trouble finishing, but he was a rook and a damn good one.Also, relative to Shump and JR’s decision-making issues–I am optimistic on two levels: First, they are not in a primary decision maker role thanks to Felton, Prigs, Kidd and to some extent Melo.Shump and JR are left to occupy a more traditional 2, or even a 3 role.Second, which is highly related, they are in a relatively simple offensive system.In that system their roles are more distilled and defined and you can already see synergy between JR and the others, such as Novak.Certainly part of this is attributable to Woody.I am more than cautiously optimistic at this point.

I think Shump becomes a solid offensive player down the line, he does have the mechanics for shooting down which bodes for for his shot improving (as opposed to Ronnie Brewer) and he showed some skill as a cutter. I don’t think he ends up being great, but Toney Allen isn’t a great offensive player and he still has value. Ronnie Brewer’s offense has also gotten a bit overrated here lately, everyone realizes that he’s being guarded by the team’s PF right? I’m pretty sure either Shump or JR is capable of doing something when being guarded by Zach Randolph. I really like Brewer, but there’s a reason Chicago finished games with Korver instead of Brewer.

Juany8: A guard who gets 6 rebounds per 36 minutes hasn’t added more value than a center who gets 6 per 36 minutes, he’s just adding value that his position doesn’t usually provide.

One real value good rebounding guards give you is the ability to get out on the break quicker by eliminating the necessity of an outlet pass. I’ve brought this up before but one stat I’d love to see I’d love to see is a team’s ppp when a certain player rebounds the ball- I’d guess that the Heat score more points per possession when LBJ gets a rebound than when Haslem gets one because of LeBron’s ability to grab the board and get out on the break. Does a rebound by a great outlet passer like Bill Walton have more value than a rebound by a guy like Mutumbo who swings his elbows around for 3 seconds before handing the ball off to the point guard? Similarly, does an offensive rebound by Reggie Evans (who usually just backs the ball back out) have less value than an offensive rebound by Chandler who’s much more likely to get a put back dunk? Given how much emphasis he gives rebounding, I’d love to see Berri try to suss some of this stuff out and get better numbers rather than just tinker with a general formula.

Juany8: A guard who gets 6 rebounds per 36 minutes hasn’t added more value than a center who gets 6 per 36 minutes,

I disagree. The two tallest guys on the team get a couple “free” rebounds a game by virtue of the fact that they get to stand closest to the basket on foul shots while the guard is 30 feet out. So, a guard who gets 6 rebounds a game is the same as a center who gets 8. There is also the problem of what you expect your center to get. If he’s only getting 6 a game, the team had better be getting rebounds from someone else or they’ve got major problems.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: So we should discount WAR for doing the same thing? Concluding that one position is more valuable than another based on average production?

I don’t think that either should be completely dismissed. I think that all statistics — both conventional and “advanced” — are useful, but I don’t think that any stats are the be-all and end-all when it comes to analyzing a player’s individual talent or his value to a team. A LOT depends on context and a team’s need. For example, Andre Iguodala is extraordinarily valuable on a team that has loads of scoring but needs a perimeter defender. He is whole lot less valuable on a team that struggles to score and needs an elite offensive player. A team can be very effective with a great offensive, but slow-footed, point guard if it has a Shump to guard the quick point guard on defense. However f Monte Ellis is the 2-guard, the team is going to get smoked by quick point guards. There is also a huge difference between a guy who misssd a wide open 3 pointer with 20 seconds left on the shot clock and a guy who is triple teamed 30 feet from the basket who heaves it up to beat the clock, but they look exactly the…

nicos: One real value good rebounding guards give you is the ability to get out on the break quicker by eliminating the necessity of an outlet pass.I’ve brought this up before but one stat I’d love to see I’d love to see is a team’s ppp when a certain player rebounds the ball- I’d guess that the Heat score more points per possession when LBJ gets a rebound than when Haslem gets one because of LeBron’s ability to grab the board and get out on the break.Does a rebound by a great outlet passer like Bill Walton have more value than a rebound by a guy like Mutumbo who swings his elbows around for 3 seconds before handing the ball off to the point guard?Similarly, does an offensive rebound by Reggie Evans (who usually just backs the ball back out) have less value than an offensive rebound by Chandler who’s much more likely to get a put back dunk?Given how much emphasis he gives rebounding, I’d love to see Berri try to suss some of this stuff out and get better numbers rather than just tinker with a general formula.

Everything in basketball is connected to another aspect of the game, there’s so much hidden complexity in every possession, and most of the data necessary to really evaluate teams is hidden by the simple fact that most coaches don’t publicize their internal decisions and game plans. We really don’t know what players are being asked to do vs. what they’re actually doing, or why exactly playing time is awarded the way it is. I’d love to get some insight into how Poppovich prepares for a game, you’d probably learn more from an hour with him than by watching a thousand games.

On another note, the debate over Pop’s benching four of his top guys and how they came so close to beating the Heat and it got me thinking about the Knicks. I realize that it’s not quite the same thing, but I’m pretty impressed that they’re 11-4 against a pretty tough schedule, despite the fact that they’ve played all 15 games without 2 of their top 6 or 7 players and the last three without another of their top 7. I’m also impressed that 10 of their 11 wins have been by double figures and 5 have been by more than 20.

johnno:
On another note, the debate over Pop’s benching four of his top guys and how they came so close to beating the Heat and it got me thinking about the Knicks.I realize that it’s not quite the same thing, but I’m pretty impressed that they’re 11-4 against a pretty tough schedule, despite the fact that they’ve played all 15 games without 2 of their top 6 or 7 players and the last three without another of their top 7.I’m also impressed that 10 of their 11 wins have been by double figures and 5 have been by more than 20.

right now six teams (three in each conference) have separated themselves a bit with W/L record, and NY has amazingly already played 4 of the other 5 (2-2, W against MIA/SA, L against MEM/Brooklyn).

The Honorable Cock Jowles: So we should discount WAR for doing the same thing? Concluding that one position is more valuable than another based on average production?

As far as I know WAR isn’t saying that. They are saying each position has different offensive standards as well as different defensive standards. First basemen are expected to hit more than catchers because catchers provide more defensive value. WAR isn’t saying that 1b are inherently better players than catchers.

I think tomorrow may be the “trap” game we’ve been waiting for. I still think we’ll find a way to win, but a noon tipoff and probably a little bit of overconfidence may get us off to a slow start. But one thing I really like about Woody is he has these guys ready for every opponent, good and bad. When you think about it, the Houston game is the only one where we looked like we were asleep from the opening tip. Remember last season, all those ugly home losses to crap teams? I just don’t see it with this team and this coach.

d-mar:
I think tomorrow may be the “trap” game we’ve been waiting for. I still think we’ll find a way to win, but a noon tipoff and probably a little bit of overconfidence may get us off to a slow start. But one thing I really like about Woody is he has these guys ready for every opponent, good and bad. When you think about it, the Houston game is the only one where we looked like we were asleep from the opening tip. Remember last season, all those ugly home losses to crap teams? I just don’t see it with this team and this coach.

Other than that Houston loss, which was on the road after thanksgiving, all 3 of the Knicks losses have been on the road on the second night of a back to back, one was in overtime against a Nets team that’s playing pretty well, one a 3 point loss to Dallas, and the other was to Memphis, the best team in the league so far. Unless you’re expecting a 60+ win season, these losses are perfectly acceptable for a 55 win team. San Antonio just punted a game last night, you can very easily make a case the Knicks basically punted the Houston game

So Dragic and Lowry look incredible and Lin has essentially become a faster version of Prigs, he looks terrified to take a shot or make a strong move to the basket. I’d love to see how Harden’s turnover numbers would look if the Rockets had another credible weapon out there. Harden is meant to be someone who starts a possession off the ball, he’s incredibly smart about putting himself in valuable scoring positions when the whole defense isn’t focusing on him. Dude can’t handle traps worth shit yet, he wouldn’t face so many of them if Dragic was in shooting 3’s and actually making shots at the rim

d-mar:
I think tomorrow may be the “trap” game we’ve been waiting for. I still think we’ll find a way to win, but a noon tipoff and probably a little bit of overconfidence may get us off to a slow start. But one thing I really like about Woody is he has these guys ready for every opponent, good and bad. When you think about it, the Houston game is the only one where we looked like we were asleep from the opening tip. Remember last season, all those ugly home losses to crap teams? I just don’t see it with this team and this coach.

I thought that too but then realized Woody did something really smart. He ran a full practice for the first time in 2 weeks to keep them sharp today. For that reason I do not expect a let down tomorrow. Well thought through on the psychology aspect by Woody after a blow out win on a Friday night w another winnable home game on Sunday. Keep em on edge, a little tired and focused.

“If Commission Stern is fine team for disservice fans, is good chance Knicks have bill for many million of dollars.” – M. Prokhorov, owner BK Nets

That is the most illiterate dis I’ve ever seen. But, I agree! (of all of Dolan’s disservices to the fans of NY, all he’s had to pay was a cheapo fine for illegally trying out Wilson Chandler and a court ordered settlement in a sexual harassment suit. Where were you during the Eddy Curry trade, Commission Stern?!?)

It’s impossible to watch the Heat-Nets game and think the Heat were playing with equal intensity in the first and second halves. They realize they only need to seriously try for 5-20 minutes and they can just destroy most teams going away. In the 2 games they couldn’t find a way to simply destroy the other team, they lost by 20 to the Knicks and Grizzlies. It’s amazing that they’re talented enough to simply decide when they’re going to start winning and it’s actually working for the most part.

Totally agreed. It is insane. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a team play like that. Honestly, it is kind of fucked up. I am not saying that championship teams have to be as engaged the year after they win the title, but I’ve never seen a team be this disengaged. It is one thing to be not as pumped up when you play, say, the Bobcats or the Rockets, but to basically take half the game off against good teams or three quarters off against teams like Charlotte and Houston, it is not cool.

If Stern has a problem with the Spurs resting players, what about the Heat effectively resting the whole team for most of their games?

By the way, how can Lebron not be MVP when he’s having a season this good while halfassing something like half the time he’s out there?

Juany8:
It’s amazing that they’re talented enough to simply decide when they’re going to start winning and it’s actually working for the most part.

there’s a fair amount of precedent for that among previous title teams, once you know what it takes to win a title, it’s easier to pace yourself to get there (which is why Popovich is the only one with the balls to sit guys like he does). the second Rockets title team in 94-95 is a great example, 47-35 regular season, then they beat teams with 60, 59, 62 and 57 wins to win another title.

actually I was thinking about this the other day, the NBA is all about effort levels, within an individual game and over the course of the endlessly long season. the only guys who can give 100% all year and not hit a wall are generally very young superstars, and even LeBron has hit a wall a few times at the end of the playoffs, mostly in CLE. it’s often not beneficial in the big picture to give maximum effort constantly (this is why someone like Gerald Wallace gets hurt so much, he doesn’t know any other way to play but all out). this is also why Kidd has been so great this year, he has mastered the art of floating along for most of the game without doing much and turning it on for the crucial stretch/stretches, no matter what point of the game that may be.

Conor: As far as I know WAR isn’t saying that.They are saying each position has different offensive standards as well as different defensive standards.First basemen are expected to hit more than catchers because catchers provide more defensive value.WAR isn’t saying that 1b are inherently better players than catchers.

It’s not that they’re inherently “better”; it’s that they’re harder to replace. The average center contributes more to a team’s wins than the average PG, but the differences among those of similar position is what the positional adjustment tries to account for. So in a way, Berri IS advocating for “roles” on a team. He’s saying that PG should be judged against other PG, SG to other SG, etc. Saying that Landry Fields ’09-’10 was outright better than, say, Dwight Howard would be ridiculous. Fields’s high WP48 had much more to do with the average SG being, according to the weights of the WP formula, not so productive for a team. And I think that Fields is much more of an SF anyway, so it makes sense that he’d be better at things like crashing the boards for “easy” self-created buckets.

Juany8:
So Dragic and Lowry look incredible and Lin has essentially become a faster version of Prigs, he looks terrified to take a shot or make a strong move to the basket. I’d love to see how Harden’s turnover numbers would look if the Rockets had another credible weapon out there. Harden is meant to be someone who starts a possession off the ball, he’s incredibly smart about putting himself in valuable scoring positions when the whole defense isn’t focusing on him. Dude can’t handle traps worth shit yet, he wouldn’t face so many of them if Dragic was in shooting 3?s and actually making shots at the rim

Box score looks good for Lin tonight 8-14 19 pt. 14 shots doesn’t look terrified. Where you able to watch the game? How did he look?

Sorry to ask, but beside watching most of 82 Knicks game, playoff & Football I don’t think my wife could take me watching anymore sport without a severe blow up.

@JC — watched the entire Rockets game and honestly the stuff that Juany8 posted is bs. Lin had a fantastic game tonight, it would have been a blow out if Utah wasn’t on fire for 3’s. He controlled the offense and HOU coaches are finally lettin’ him run the offense. Vs Toronto, Lin had 16 + 4 rebs + 10 assists and completely outplayed Lowry, who has really fallen off a cliff (might be injured tho).

StatsTeacher:
@JC — watched the entire Rockets game and honestly the stuff that Juany8 posted is bs.Lin had a fantastic game tonight, it would have been a blow out if Utah wasn’t on fire for 3?s.He controlled the offense and HOU coaches are finally lettin’ him run the offense.Vs Toronto, Lin had 16 + 4 rebs + 10 assists and completely outplayed Lowry, who has really fallen off a cliff (might be injured tho).

I love how often people post about 1 game here like it’s proof of anything. Do you realize that was Lin’s second or third best best game of the year? How excited would be by if Felton got a 19 and 8 tomorrow against Phoenix? Lowry has been injured, he was playing incredible before he went out, and Dragic is playing spectacular basketball. Lin has had 1 game above 20 points this season, and he’s the Rockets 2nd option. Do you realize that the invisible game he had against the Knicks was one of his best game of the entire season? Lin not crapping the floor has become praiseworthy apparently.

I love that he played average point guard games against an injured Kyle Lowry and Mo Williams, but I’d really like it if he didn’t go 3-7 for 6 points with 3 turnovers and only 8 assists in 42 minutes against OKC. Keep in mind, the Rockets need Lin to shoot, he was supposed to be their main option before the season started. Now apparently Chandler Parsons is, but at least Lin isn’t getting benched at the end of games now so that’s good.

Let’s not forget that his last 2 good games came at home against teams that are a combined 4-18 on the road. A team like the Jazz is particularly bad on the road vs. at home (6-0 at home, 3-9 on the road) I won’t bring up the stats from when Lin played AT Utah, I’m starting to get depressed when I look at the individual games Lin has had. If JR had 7 games in a row shooting below a .500 TS%, I’m sure there wouldn’t so many people rushing to defend him

@Juany — I don’t want to be the guy defending Lin, he has had some awful games, I just think the situation in HOU has been tough to figure out. There training camp was a waste of time with the Harden trade coming exactly as it ended, and Lin’s shot is definitely off after the meniscus surgery. Not for 1 second did I think “Linsanity” was going to be repeated. But in the long run I do think 14-18 pts + 8-10 assists is what he’ll give you. Can’t say “They should have kept Lowry” — then they couldn’t have gotten Harden with Toronto’s pick. Dragic left because of a contract dispute. Dragic, Lowry, Mo Willimas, Steph Curry all recently got ~ $40 million deals. Morey at Houston has routinely pointed out that Lin was a “steal” at his contract price. I think eventually (another 20 games?) that will turn out to be true.

StatsTeacher:
@Juany — I don’t want to be the guy defending Lin, he has had some awful games, I just think the situation in HOU has been tough to figure out.There training camp was a waste of time with the Harden trade coming exactly as it ended, and Lin’s shot is definitely off after the meniscus surgery.Not for 1 second did I think “Linsanity” was going to be repeated.But in the long run I do think 14-18 pts + 8-10 assists is what he’ll give you.Can’t say “They should have kept Lowry”— then they couldn’t have gotten Harden with Toronto’s pick.Dragic left because of a contract dispute.Dragic, Lowry, Mo Willimas, Steph Curry all recently got~ $40 million deals.Morey at Houston has routinely pointed out that Lin was a “steal” at his contract price.I think eventually (another 20 games?) that will turn out to be true.

The problem is that I’m at the point where I’m hoping Lin will turn out to be average whereas coming into the season I had assumed he would at least be solid. I never liked the move from the start, but thought Lin would at least come close to replicating what Dragic gave the Rockets, instead he’s crapped the bed and I’m supposed to be excited when Lin’s best games of the season are roughly what Dragic is averaging. I’m ok with the Lowry trade now that I realize it was made in anticipation of the Harden move, even if Harden alone probably won’t be as good as Lowry, Martin, and Lamb combined, it’s always better to consolidate your pieces into a star, as the Melo trade clearly showed with the Knicks

Oh and Lin’s contract is pretty damn good for a top 15, above average point guard. Right now he’s not in the top 20 however, and any hope I had that maybe he could one day reach Linsanity levels consistently has been replaced by the hope that he’ll at least outplay Raymond Felton…

Juany8–confusing and negative comments. Sigh… IMO, Lin and Felton both are both hardworking PGs; and at any rate, it’s a moot point. Let’s enjoy the memory of what we had, what we have now, and hope they both have great seasons.