(I went to a game in 1986, the year the Indians won 84 games, where there were 72,000 in attendance. For a baseball game. Amazing.

C'mon now I was playing off of Swerb's set up, with the Indians worst marketing campaign in a long time the "what if" crap.

I remember a lot of Indian nation being a bit upset b/c the Jake was built for 40K instead of the 80K of the old Muni, LOL.

Herm you might remember this, IIRC 87 when we were competing (with Carter, Snyder etc...) and the Tribe won 10 in a row, wasn't there a few sell outs or close to it, I remember being at the Blue Jay game the 10th win or 11th maybe and the place was jam packed?

While the Jake is a great stadium I've been in about 8-9 of the newer built ones since Camden and I have to say once you're in em you can get the cookie cutter feel they have to them, IMO the uniqueness of some of them wears off.

Actually, you could make a case stadiums were more cookie cutter in the 70's/80's than they are now. Hell, Pittsburgh and Cincy were EXACTLY the same, and very similiar to several others. The only thing that differentiated many of them is they were dual use - like Municipal, which, while it was fantastic opening day and July 4th to draw 80,000, the fact of the matter was it was an awful, awful stadium for baseball.

And you younger guys could take something from the winning streak FUDU brings up, cause from the mid-70's, when pops was takin' me to games, thru the early nineties - almost 20 years - there are only TWO real things that could be considered noteworthy. (Which shows you just how pathetic the team was) 1. the streak in which guys like Butler and Tabler were getting curtain calls and 2. The ballyhooed debut of Greg "The Flounder" Swindell. (Remember running down to grab tickets when he was announced to get the nod at home that night - only to see the Tribe on the short end of a softball score, 24 to something, I believe. Brian Oelkers struggled out of the pen.) If I had to put a third Municipal memory, perhaps it was the trapezoid they constructed for Alex Cole.

So yes, the org. was a joke, in a joke stadium in regard to baseball. The Jake provided some relevance, and with perfect timing.

Ooh you're right about the cookie cutter days of the 70's, probably more so than now, maybe cookie cutter isn't the best word to describe what I'm trying to convey. But to me there is something overwhelmingly similar to so many of the new ball parks, almost a modular feeling to them like so many new homes. EOD like cars the stadiums of today are far and away superior to those of yesterday.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

swerb wrote:Whoever was responsible for the "What If" marketing campaign should be fired immediately.

Never seen anything that bad in my life when it comes to sports marketing. How can you be so disconnected with the pulse of your fan base?

+1

I saw the ad for the first time in the middle of the second game of the season. It had me feeling even worse than I was before.

The dumb thing is that, if they were committed to the "concept," they could've spun it much more positively. Instead of the negative-focused "What if X never happened?" go with a positive "Did you / can you imagine?" Could you imagine the Indians winning seven in a row after getting blown out the first two games of the season?

(Answer: No. But it happened anyway! )

On-topic: Unless I take a spur of the moment weekend trip, I'll only be in Cleveland for one week this year. I'm sure I'll get to a game or two then.

FUDU wrote:Ooh you're right about the cookie cutter days of the 70's, probably more so than now, maybe cookie cutter isn't the best word to describe what I'm trying to convey. But to me there is something overwhelmingly similar to so many of the new ball parks, almost a modular feeling to them like so many new homes. EOD like cars the stadiums of today are far and away superior to those of yesterday.

Right. They're not cookie-cutter in dimensions, more like in architecture and style. They have the green seats, the exposed brick/steel/stone/whatever, the "quirky" angles in the outfield. The retractable roof stadiums have some additional differences to meet the engineering needs of the stadiums, but design-wise they take their cues from the trend started with Camden and the Jake.

It'll be interesting to see if there's ever a new architectural trend, but outside of the two Florida teams, there doesn't seem to be much interest in new ballpark construction anywhere. Still, I just looked at the renderings for the new Marlins stadium, and the design looks sleek and modern in a way that's different from the parks of the 1990s and 2000s. Done well, it might stand apart. OTOH, with all that white and glass, if it's not done well, it might end up looking like nothing more than a big airport terminal.

Once my chemo is finished and my white blood cell count is back above the Mendoza line, I'll be attending plenty of games.

You can attribute many factors into the poor attendance: Weather, projected crappy team, been crappy for a few years, traded top players, shit economy, same ownership, etc. IMO, a lot of those variables can be explained in 2 words: Baseball Economics. But the one factor that many people don't discuss is the advancement in technology. I'd much rather sit on my couch & watch a game on my 42" Samsung than brave the April/May Cleveland atmosphere. It doesn't make me less of a fan. In fact, quite the contrary, as I watch every game in my Rafael Betencourt (sp) jersey.

"I must be cruel only to be kind;Thus bad begins, and worse remains behind."

Marathon Oil used to sponsor a few nights at the stadium that would get 50k down there or so. One of those nights coincided with that 10-game heater back in whatever year that was.

Those were anomalies though, clearly. If you remember big crowds at the stadium it was opening day or one of those promotions.

And you have to recall back then that the stadium was overrun with Canadiens when the Blue Jays came here. I sat amongst thousands for Dave Stieb's no hitter. It was an easy trip for them, tickets were cheaper and easier to get AND they came here (no shit) and loaded up with higher quality, lower-priced cigarettes.

FUDU wrote:

hermanfontenot wrote:

FUDU wrote:What if they never built Progressive Field?

There'd be 50,000 at the Stadium on Friday night.

(I went to a game in 1986, the year the Indians won 84 games, where there were 72,000 in attendance. For a baseball game. Amazing.

C'mon now I was playing off of Swerb's set up, with the Indians worst marketing campaign in a long time the "what if" crap.

I remember a lot of Indian nation being a bit upset b/c the Jake was built for 40K instead of the 80K of the old Muni, LOL.

Herm you might remember this, IIRC 87 when we were competing (with Carter, Snyder etc...) and the Tribe won 10 in a row, wasn't there a few sell outs or close to it, I remember being at the Blue Jay game the 10th win or 11th maybe and the place was jam packed?

While the Jake is a great stadium I've been in about 8-9 of the newer built ones since Camden and I have to say once you're in em you can get the cookie cutter feel they have to them, IMO the uniqueness of some of them wears off.

peeker643 wrote:Think there were high achiever dates that you could get a voucher for a ticket but the Coach's Assoc thing was whenever you wanted to go like a season ticket pass.

That was the only way that I was able to go to games from middle school until I finished up high school during the streak. Either our neighbors wouldn't be able to use them, or one of my buddies would be going, or I'd go with the High Achiever tickets. Coming over from Iggy, it was easy (just needed to walk over the bridge...)

As far as the attendance goes, I'm not really surprised at the empty seats. Look at how this town supported the team for 30+ years until the final weekend in '93? Population was still close to downtown, economy wasn't terrible, Cavs & Browns weren't perennial powerhouses and we still didn't fill the place even a third of the way. Sure, there was the Opener, Yankee Hankee, Bat Day & the San Diego Chicken, but the rest of the season was "foul balls for everyone"...

I was at a Tremont bar Saturday night and the place was packed. My buddy and me were the only ones watching the game and cheering after the final out, no one else cared. The majority of people in this town would rather spend their time & money on other leisures...

We're not much different than Toronto. Both had great, exciting teams and filled the park every night. Now most people have a perception of how the season will play out and they're afraid to get emotionally involved with teams like that. The Tribe's playin good fundamental ball and currently it's a blast to follow em, but for most, if you know the end of the story, why start reading the book?

As far as the attendance goes, I'm not really surprised at the empty seats. Look at how this town supported the team for 30+ years until the final weekend in '93? Population was still close to downtown, economy wasn't terrible, Cavs & Browns weren't perennial powerhouses and we still didn't fill the place even a third of the way. Sure, there was the Opener, Yankee Hankee, Bat Day & the San Diego Chicken, but the rest of the season was "foul balls for everyone"...

I was at a Tremont bar Saturday night and the place was packed. My buddy and me were the only ones watching the game and cheering after the final out, no one else cared. The majority of people in this town would rather spend their time & money on other leisures...

We're not much different than Toronto. Both had great, exciting teams and filled the park every night. Now most people have a perception of how the season will play out and they're afraid to get emotionally involved with teams like that. The Tribe's playin good fundamental ball and currently it's a blast to follow em, but for most, if you know the end of the story, why start reading the book?

For me I won't ever be a fairweather fan(ever), I've never been since I could talk and my family were/are not huge fans of the Indians, but I just took a liking to the Indians(Joe carter specifically). Now I can't go to many games(if at all) because of being relocated to Tennessee but I still do my best to keep up with them because I just feel like I can say I was one of the fans who gave a care when not many did, thats why I do it/thats why I keep up with them.

T_N_T wrote:For me I won't ever be a fairweather fan(ever), I've never been since I could talk and my family were/are not huge fans of the Indians, but I just took a liking to the Indians(Joe carter specifically). Now I can't go to many games(if at all) because of being relocated to Tennessee but I still do my best to keep up with them because I just feel like I can say I was one of the fans who gave a care when not many did, thats why I do it/thats why I keep up with them.

Most of the Tribe games I went to as a kid were on what was called Grandstand Managers freebies. The PD would run (constantly) survey questions for the "Grandstand Managers" about whatever topics...favorite players...just basic qustions about what you would do if you were in charge. All you had to do was clip out the box from the paper and fill it out and mail it in, and you got a free general admission ticket to a selected game. maybe a couple times a month IIRC, they would have Grandstand Managers nights, and they could get 35 or 40,000 butts in the chairs on a weeknight. My parents had six kids and this was one way my dad could afford to take his whole family to a game.

Also, it was the Cleveland Press who ran the "Staight A Tickets" program, for school kids who got straight A's. (I think there was some leeway on that 4.0 thing). I had two very smart older sisters (we never got any freebies on my grades, that's for sure) but that wasn't just a single game thing. If I recall, one semester of straight A's got maybe 6 or more pairs of tickets...with two smart sisters year after year, that added up to a ton of games for me.

One thing about the prospect of attendance picking up as the season goes along...even assuming the team continues to play above expectations...

Ticket sales are so much about pre-season, season ticket sales. If they don't sell them in the off-season, it's not going to improve a lot once the season starts. Expecting big walk-up sales is a pipe dream. I think (not sure about this...please correct me if someone knows this is wrong) that the record walk-up sale in stadium history is something like 6,000-7,000 or something in that neighborhood.

With a 9,000-10,000 season ticket base, which is about where I think it is right now, the average crowd is never going to get much above 15,000 (which comes out to about 1.2 million...below last year's pathetic 1.3 mil) even with excellent walk up and the select "premium" games (Yankees, Reds, etc) averaged in.

Say what you will about the team's recent performance as a factor...someone in the front office in charge of PR and ticket sales needs to be fired.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

danwismar wrote: Expecting big walk-up sales is a pipe dream. I think (not sure about this...please correct me if someone knows this is wrong) that the record walk-up sale in stadium history is something like 6,000-7,000 or something in that neighborhood.

I think it's gotta be more, Dan?

Like Lead mentioned, I was at Swindell's debut and Muni was pretty packed that night. Huge walkup that came outta nowhere. Of course, by the 4th inning, the Bosox were up 46-0 and 80% of the people were already on the Shoreway

danwismar wrote: Expecting big walk-up sales is a pipe dream. I think (not sure about this...please correct me if someone knows this is wrong) that the record walk-up sale in stadium history is something like 6,000-7,000 or something in that neighborhood.

I think it's gotta be more, Dan?

Like Lead mentioned, I was at Swindell's debut and Muni was pretty packed that night. Huge walkup that came outta nowhere. Of course, by the 4th inning, the Bosox were up 46-0 and 80% of the people were already on the Shoreway

I was talking Jacobs/Prog Field history ('94-Pres) as far as walk-up, Wabo. I do recall some huge "flash" crowds at Muni back in the day.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

In a very strange way, the sell out streak affected the psyche of the fan. For a long time you didn't even think about walking up, 'case the game was always sold out. I imagine the effect has worn off, but it's a unique trait carried by the Indians fan base. An entire generation didn't have it ingrained that they could pick up and go to ballgames anytime they wanted.

As far as Cleveland fans being shitty baseball fans, I'd don't disagree. The Jacobs Field era was a just a small portion of the last 50 years. We shift from sport to sport, with allegiance to all, but money for only some. Throw in that we're probably the smallest market with 3 majors and I don't know why peeps are surprised that we can't uber-support all teams all the time.

Cease wrote:In a very strange way, the sell out streak affected the psyche of the fan. For a long time you didn't even think about walking up, 'case the game was always sold out. I imagine the effect has worn off, but it's a unique trait carried by the Indians fan base. An entire generation didn't have it ingrained that they could pick up and go to ballgames anytime they wanted.

This is so true. For the longest time there was no such thing as walk-up at the Jake.

Then and now, the large majority of fans in the stands bought their tickets before the season started. I think this is largely true even for people who buy tickets for individual games instead of a season package.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

Kingpin74 wrote:The Tribe's savvy marketing department strikes again. The first Dollar Dog Night of the year comes on a Friday during Lent.

Eliminating, what, maybe 20% of the crowd from purchasing a hot dog?

Not going to shit on your beliefs, but what the hell kind of archaic rule is not eating meat on Fridays during Lent? And this is coming from somebody who went to Catholic grade school and high school. Nobody ever explained why except for "This is what you do".

Needless to say, I am agnostic.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

Not going to shit on your beliefs, but what the hell kind of archaic rule is not eating meat on Fridays during Lent? And this is coming from somebody who went to Catholic grade school and high school. Nobody ever explained why except for "This is what you do".

Needless to say, I am agnostic.

Haha, of course it won't make a big difference. But you have so many games to choose from, why risk any sort of drop? And I mean it more from a ticket sale perspective rather than a food sale perspective. I think there are a decent amount of people who show up on dollar dog night that wouldn't otherwise.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

You can attribute one main factor into the poor attendance: Cleveland is not a good baseball town.

Fixed. The streak was due to Caffe Late Field being the mall of Cleveland and the Browns leaving and the complete irrelevance of the Cavs. No one there new baseball. Now, other than fireworks no one goes. Worst attendance in MLB. But I am a piker on this topic. Disagree and get Gnati out of the cript on this topic.

And I hope you feel OK, brah. You deerve some 80 degree weather and a grilled dog in a field box seat for going thru all that.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I might try and head up tomorrow and just buy walk up tickets.

Anyone else going tomorrow?

McPeek and I are meeting at the Clevelander at 10:30. I'm going to the Monsters game, though (he's going to the Tribe game with Pauly C and Al C. (gotribe31), and I'm hoping the weather delays the Tribe game til 2:30. Not gonna make the wife sit outside in chilly rain on a windy day...

Unless of course the Monsters game ends and the Tribe hasn't started or its within the first three innings. Then we'll get cheap seats and stand on the Porch.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Yeah the weather is going to determine if I drive up or not. Long haul if they don't play. But I was thinking about watching it from the porch myself.

National Weather Service hourly graph showing 82% chance through 2 pm. 50% after. They'll play, it's just a matter of when. I doubt they'd want to play a Sunday doubleheader having to go to KC for Monday and Baltimore doesn't come back. They'll get it played, even if they make both teams sit there all day.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe