* The T-50 is the domestic name of Russia's fifth-generation fighter plane which has been developed as the Advanced Front-Line Aviation Complex (PAK FA) for Russia's Air Force.

* The project started its development by the Sukhoi design bureau since it won the tender in April 2002.

* The Tikhomirov Institute of Instrument Design, which developed the Irbis radar for the Su-35BM Flanker, has been working on the T-50 radar. The new fighter's radar and fire-control system will be designed on the basis of the Su-35BM's systems.

* The new fighter's exterior design was approved on December 10, 2004.

* Last summer, the fighter's design was approved, and the prototype blueprints were delivered to the KNAAPO aircraft building company based in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, where three experimental fighters will be built for testing.

* In February 2009, the first prototype was constructed. After the plane was successfully tested on the runway, a decision was made to stage the maiden flight in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, rather than in Moscow.

* The prototype fifth-generation fighter made a 47-minute maiden flight on January 29, 2010, in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

* Although T-50 specifications remain classified, fragmentary data on its engines imply that this heavy-duty fighter will have a take-off weight of more than 30 metric tons and will be close in dimension to the well-known Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker.

* The new fighter's exterior was designed using Stealth technology, also known as LO technology (low observable technology).

* The new jet can also carry two long-range missiles developed by the Novator Bureau which can hit targets within a 400 kilometer range.

* The jet can use a take-off strip of just 300-400 meters, and perform sustained supersonic flight at speeds over 2,000 km/h, including repeated in-flight refueling. The highly-maneuverable plane has a range of about 5,500 kilometers.

* The fifth-generation fighter is equipped with advanced avionics to combine an automatic flight control system and a radar locator with a phased array antenna.

* The newest combat aircraft are planned to be mass produced in Komsomolsk-on-Amur from 2015.

MOSCOW, March 2 (RIA Novosti) - A Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter jet could be developed by 2015-2016, a Russian defense industry official said on Tuesday.

Moscow and New Delhi are expected to sign a contract on a joint development of the new fighter in the near future, focusing on the design concept and technical requirements put forward by India.

"I hope that we will be able to build a joint fifth-generation aircraft in the next five to six years. It is a time-consuming and complex project," said Alexander Fomin, first deputy head of the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation.

The new aircraft will be most likely based on Russia's T-50 prototype fifth-generation fighter, which has already made two test flights and is expected to join the Russian Air Force in 2015.

India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was reported to be seeking a 25% share in design and development in the project.

Fomin said the fighter for the Indian Air Force could incorporate several integrated on-board systems developed by third parties.

"The integration is good because we will not have to invent a bicycle and can use the things that our neighbors already have, but it is also a difficult task because we will have to combine all the elements in a unified system," the official said.

The new fighter for the Indian Air Force is expected to feature a two-seat cockpit, advanced electronics and could be armed with BrahMos supersonic missiles.

Russia has been developing its fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The current prototype, known as the T-50, was designed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia's Far East.

Russian officials have already hailed the fighter as "a unique warplane" that combines the capabilities of an air superiority fighter and attack aircraft.

It is true that the Chinese were buying lots of stuff at a time when the Russian Armed forces was not buying anything but if you look at what the Chinese were actually allowed to buy you will see they didn't get to choose from the top shelf.

Now that Russia is starting to spend money on its armed forces it not only has the choice of anything made in Russia, but also quite a few options from other countries.

If you think about it, in the past Russia has had no problems buying stuff from most former Soviet republics, but now that they are foreign countries if you are going to look a thermal imagers from Belarus then why not also look at thermal imagers from France and Sweden and South Africa etc etc.

China bought Moskits (SS-N-22) when India and Russia developed a new missile based on the missile that was to replace the SS-N-22. (Brahmos was developed from the Yakhont, which was the export version of the Oniks, which was the replacement for MOSKIT.)

The Flankers the Chinese bought were multirole, unlike the flankers in Russian service, but they were nothing like the Su-27M (the Su-35 of the late 1980s) let alone the current Su-35S, or even the Su-30MKI produced for the Indians.

I think the sales to China were purely for money transactions and that when money is less of a concern (ie now production capacity is probably more of an issue because they are having trouble producing for the Russian Armed forces AND export commitments at the same time.) that they can be more picky about who they sell to and what they sell.

After problems with the Chinese allegedly copying items and exporting them as their own I really think things like S-400 and PAK FA will not be sold to China any time soon... but that of course is just my opinion.

Perhaps someone with insider knowledge might be able to back up or refute this opinion?

It is true that the Chinese were buying lots of stuff at a time when the Russian Armed forces was not buying anything but if you look at what the Chinese were actually allowed to buy you will see they didn't get to choose from the top shelf.

Now that Russia is starting to spend money on its armed forces it not only has the choice of anything made in Russia, but also quite a few options from other countries.

If you think about it, in the past Russia has had no problems buying stuff from most former Soviet republics, but now that they are foreign countries if you are going to look a thermal imagers from Belarus then why not also look at thermal imagers from France and Sweden and South Africa etc etc.

China bought Moskits (SS-N-22) when India and Russia developed a new missile based on the missile that was to replace the SS-N-22. (Brahmos was developed from the Yakhont, which was the export version of the Oniks, which was the replacement for MOSKIT.)

The Flankers the Chinese bought were multirole, unlike the flankers in Russian service, but they were nothing like the Su-27M (the Su-35 of the late 1980s) let alone the current Su-35S, or even the Su-30MKI produced for the Indians.

I think the sales to China were purely for money transactions and that when money is less of a concern (ie now production capacity is probably more of an issue because they are having trouble producing for the Russian Armed forces AND export commitments at the same time.) that they can be more picky about who they sell to and what they sell.

After problems with the Chinese allegedly copying items and exporting them as their own I really think things like S-400 and PAK FA will not be sold to China any time soon... but that of course is just my opinion.

Perhaps someone with insider knowledge might be able to back up or refute this opinion?

Yes, I don't think that will happen soon . Would we be that dumb to arm a potiential adversary with this high tech technology?

It is true that the Chinese were buying lots of stuff at a time when the Russian Armed forces was not buying anything but if you look at what the Chinese were actually allowed to buy you will see they didn't get to choose from the top shelf.

The Su-30MKK and MKK2 are not as capable as the MKI you sold to India and certainly not as capable as the Su-35S you will have in service soon. The Kilo 877EKMs are better than inservice Russian Kilos, but when new things are not being bought that is no surprise. The point is they didn't get the 636 Kilos or even the Amur or Lada classes.Most of the examples you give where they get actual good stuff like the Mi-38 is where India wasn't interested, Russia still had no money to fund and China was willing to fund development.

In other words they paid for the development of the system to improve it.

Much like the case where Antei sold the US a full S-300V system and using the money earned developed the S-300VM or Antei-2500.

The Su-30MKK and MKK2 are not as capable as the MKI you sold to India and certainly not as capable as the Su-35S you will have in service soon.

MKI is hardly more advanced if you take out the Western avionics in it. A 2D TVC is about the only real difference, slightly better radar but still all the capabilities. We sold China the MK2s before we did MKI so it was the best at the time. The first operational Su-35BM doesn't even exist yet.

The Kilo 877EKMs are better than inservice Russian Kilos, but when new things are not being bought that is no surprise. The point is they didn't get the 636 Kilos or even the Amur or Lada classes.

But they did get 636 Kilos. Amur and Lada aren't ready for export, still working out the bugs.

Most of the examples you give where they get actual good stuff like the Mi-38 is where India wasn't interested, Russia still had no money to fund and China was willing to fund development.

So we give away our technology so the Chinese can go pirate it leaving us with no gain.

Much like the case where Antei sold the US a full S-300V system and using the money earned developed the S-300VM or Antei-2500.

Development of new jet engines is one of the most problematic aspects of the program PAK FA

A recent Salon Russian manufacturers "Engines-2010" provided a presentation on progress in developing a new engine, designed for next-generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA). Head of the Joint Engine Corporation Vasily Lapotko said that the engine will create sovmetno several companies.

Previously, for developing the future of jet engine with a thrust of 16 tons (157kN) fought two companies: Scientific-Production Association "Saturn" (already included in the Joint Engine Corporation) and the Moscow Machine Building Production Enterprise "Salut" (it may soon enter into RBC, because of its general director Yury Eliseev was appointed deputy director of the corporation).

JDC decided. The consortium will be the general contractor with a share of 54%, while the remaining 46% depart MMPP Salyut. Now the sides have been negotiating the division of responsibilities, but the main question is, whose technical proposal will be used as the basis of the program. According to Yuri Eliseev project "Salute" will be supported by the Central Institute of Aviation Motors, and the Ministry of Defense of Russia.

Urgency

The Director-General Vladimir CIAM Skibin urged the Ministry of Defence to begin testing the engine as soon as possible. Basil Lapotko his part, said: "We can handle every day about the progress of the project, and it turns out that he is still a very early stage. However, now started work on the nozzles and combustion chamber. In its official communications JDC still says that production will begin in 2017, but this time clearly look overly optimistic. Moreover, not a fact that Russia has the necessary resources for successful completion of this project. It is also possible that the Ministry of Defense will delay the order of engines up to that time until he PAK FA will not pass the preliminary tests, that is, at least until 2012.

Performance

In the near future engine 117 still must allow the T-50 aircraft to meet the requirements for the fifth generation. At least minimal. In fact, the main problem of the jet engine 117 is in its lack of traction without Forsazh. Its exact value is unknown, but it is clearly less than 10 tons. Thus, the thrust 117C (designed for the Su-35 "lite" version of 117) of 8.8 tonnes without Forsazh and 14,5 tons of afterburner. In this regard, T-50 will be able to reach supersonic speeds with Mach number 1.3, not 1.5 as stated in the specifications. For comparison: the supersonic F-22 U.S. Air Force (the main competitor to the T-50) is able to fly at Mach 1,7.

Another weakness of the engine is its relative complexity, originating from the similarity with the AL-31F. Thus, 117 is nine-high-pressure compressor, while the F119-PW-100 American F-22A at these levels only six. And this has a direct effect on the reliability of the unit and its maintenance.

Salyut AL-31F Upgrade

In parallel with participation in the creation engine for the T-50 "Salute" intends to upgrade the AL-31F. His goal is to create a new engine, which would be completely interchangeable with the base version of AL-31F, which is installed on Su-27. It should be, given that the installation of 117C for Su-35 required major modifications.

The first stage of this upgrade should be the AL-31F-M1: he will be a new low-pressure compressor, which gives more traction 13,5 tons (1 ton more than the basic version), while the service will increase to 1000 hours. AL-31F-M1 will be called the AL-31F "series 42" and installed on the modernized Su-27SM and tactical bombers, Su-34.

As soon as the test will be the AL-31F-M2 with a thrust in 14.5 tons of the equipment: get a new combustion chamber and control system jets. AL-31F-M3 with a thrust of 15 tons is still under development. This engine will be used and some elements of the technical proposal "Salute" for the PAK FA, including the three-stage low-pressure compressor and six-high-pressure compressor.

MKI is hardly more advanced if you take out the Western avionics in it. A 2D TVC is about the only real difference, slightly better radar but still all the capabilities. We sold China the MK2s before we did MKI so it was the best at the time. The first operational Su-35BM doesn't even exist yet.

There is a significant difference between the MKK and the MKI and it is not just the western avionics. The avionics are fundamentally different, the MKI has a mil std data bus that pretty much allows new bits or weapons to be plug and play. The MKK requires new code to integrate new features.And you sold the MKK when the Su-27M was a possibility, so even then it wasn't the best you could have sold them.

But they did get 636 Kilos. Amur and Lada aren't ready for export, still working out the bugs.

So they got the vessels the Russian navy would have been getting 10 years ago if they spent the money on them, they are not getting what is the latest.

So we give away our technology so the Chinese can go pirate it leaving us with no gain.

If you don't fund the development yourself then it is their technology... they are paying for it. You end up with a company with a bit more experience and capability that has just earned some cash in the process. To be brutally honest the Mi-38 doesn't look to me to be generationally superior to the latest models of the Mi-17.I would suggest that Mil need to aim higher and develop a new design that is more ambitious, that the Russian Army will look at and decide they have to have it.

Almaz never sold a full S-300V system to the US.

Sorry, I didn't mean complete when I said full, I meant what they sold was full standard like that used in Soviet armies... ie not a monkey model or down graded version but a fully capable system though without lots of the ESM equipment, just the search and tracking radars needed to make it work.

Regarding the Engines I have read that the 5th gen engines wont be ready for 8-10 years, though the person saying that said that might be a good think because by then the aircraft will have probably gained weight and need the extra power and other variants will be in the process of development including naval and other dedicated variants. To me it sounded like he was looking at a cloud and picking out the shiny lining so he could make people forget they had no umbrella.

There is a significant difference between the MKK and the MKI and it is not just the western avionics. The avionics are fundamentally different, the MKI has a mil std data bus that pretty much allows new bits or weapons to be plug and play. The MKK requires new code to integrate new features.And you sold the MKK when the Su-27M was a possibility, so even then it wasn't the best you could have sold them.

Nah, there isn't much difference between the MK2 and MKI once you take out the Western kit. Thrust vector and a higher processing bus but the advantage is marginal.

So they got the vessels the Russian navy would have been getting 10 years ago if they spent the money on them, they are not getting what is the latest.

They got the best we had at the time, we sold it to them 10 years ago. Lada was just a dream back then. Still seems like a dream with all the delays.

If you don't fund the development yourself then it is their technology... they are paying for it. You end up with a company with a bit more experience and capability that has just earned some cash in the process. To be brutally honest the Mi-38 doesn't look to me to be generationally superior to the latest models of the Mi-17.I would suggest that Mil need to aim higher and develop a new design that is more ambitious, that the Russian Army will look at and decide they have to have it.

It isn't their technology, it is French and Russian. It was developed under EuroMil. Without Western engines we can't do anything with it. Transport helicopters are all about the engines now. China can buy them, we can't.

Regarding the Engines I have read that the 5th gen engines wont be ready for 8-10 years, though the person saying that said that might be a good think because by then the aircraft will have probably gained weight and need the extra power and other variants will be in the process of development including naval and other dedicated variants. To me it sounded like he was looking at a cloud and picking out the shiny lining so he could make people forget they had no umbrella.

Trust me, it isn't a good thing. I doubt there ever will be a new generation engine for PAK FA before its production run is over. Maybe one for an MLU. By that time USAF is going to be running around in hypersonic bombers.

Nah, there isn't much difference between the MK2 and MKI once you take out the Western kit. Thrust vector and a higher processing bus but the advantage is marginal.

Well I guess I will have to take your word for it, but with the PAK FA at the prototype stage and getting funding and being worked on I think you should be selling as many Flankers as you can while you can. The money Sukhoi is earning seems to be going into keeping that company healthy with money being spent on the next gen aircraft even if for the US it is current gen.

They got the best we had at the time, we sold it to them 10 years ago. Lada was just a dream back then. Still seems like a dream with all the delays.

Well if it was easy to make and put into service after what your country has been through... I mean three fairly significant economic collapses in 20 years is not nothing... then it might end up being a Project 636.1 instead of Project 667.

It isn't their technology, it is French and Russian. It was developed under EuroMil. Without Western engines we can't do anything with it. Transport helicopters are all about the engines now. China can buy them, we can't.

Well perhaps if China does get some European engines for it that while working on the project Mil might need a couple of those engines to work on integrating them into a new transmission or whatever. As far as Mil is concerned I would expect they want to make the helo they designed to replace their Mi-17s and Mi-8s in service.

To be brutally honest the photos I have seen of the Mi-38 they look like a slightly stretched late model Mi-17. Even the shape of the nose.The increase of payload from 5 tons to 6 tons doesn't seem to warrant the introduction of a new helo.I think Mil should basically sell the entire design to the Chinese and even work with them on it and use the money and experience to develop a more capable machine, something with a similar size to the Mi-17 but a payload maybe 2-3 tons more and perhaps go for greatly increased flight speed. The Europeans have made lots of helos with 3 engines, the Russians might use this trick to get more engine power too.

Trust me, it isn't a good thing. I doubt there ever will be a new generation engine for PAK FA before its production run is over. Maybe one for an MLU.

My understanding is that the change in direction for the PAK FA was the problem. For years they were working on the AL-41 as the definitive 5th gen engine for the MFI programme, but when they changed it to the PAK FA they went from something slightly bigger than the Su-27 to something slightly smaller than the Su-27 so all of a sudden the engine they had been working on was too big. The solution they have adopted is to apply some of the new technology developed for the Al-41 into a version of the Al-31 which can be used in the PAK FA and the existing Flankers in service to give them a 4+ generation engine while they make a new 5th gen engine that should be ready in 5 to 8 years from now. Now keeping in mind that the aircraft is supposed to be ready for the first test production models in 2015, this should result in PAK FAs flying with 5th gen engines starting by about 2018.I doubt the PAK FA will be mass produced in huge numbers, so production will likely be over a significant period at a fairly low rate.

By that time USAF is going to be running around in hypersonic bombers.

ZHUKOVSKY, June 17 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's fifth generation fighter will be about three times as cheap as its foreign analog, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said on Thursday.

He observed the test flight of a prototype fighter and later talked to the pilot, Sergei Bogdan.

"It will be a machine superior to our main competitor, the F-22, in maneuverability, armament and range," Putin said.

"Also in morale," the pilot added.

"Above all else," Putin said smiling.

Bogdan said it was the fighter's 16th test flight and more would follow shortly.

The prime minister said 30 billion rubles (around $1 billion) had already been spent on the project and another 30 billion would be required to complete it, after which the engine, weaponry and other components would be upgraded.

He said, factoring in modernization and upgrades, the fighter will have a service life of 30-35 years.

Russia's only known fifth-generation project is Sukhoi's PAK FA and the current prototype is the T-50. It is designed to compete with the U.S. F-22 Raptor, so far the world's only fifth-generation fighter, and the F-35 Lightning II.

Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. The country's top military officials earlier said the stealth fighter jet with a range of up to 5,500 km would enter service with the Air Force in 2015.

The PAK FA is to be armed with next-generation air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, and has two 30-mm cannons.

I wonder if it will be the standard single barrel GSh-301 as used in the Mig-29s and Su-27s times two of course, or a GSh-30, which is the twin barrel 30mm gun fitted to the Su-25, which is one gun with two fixed barrels they might be mistaking for two guns?

The GSh-301 weighs 45kgs but the structure to fit in in would make the installation of two guns more than simply twice the weight of two guns.The GSh-30 weighs 115kgs.

In terms of rate of fire having two single barrel guns firing 1,500rpm each and the twin barrel gun firing 3,000 rpm they would both be the same.

The Russians have done a lot of work with gun mountings that can move so two single barrel guns would enable adjusting the aim of the guns so the problems of WWII where guns were zeroed for specific ranges disappear and both guns will be hitting the target.

Note the Mig-29 has long had a system that used a laser for precise ranging of the target and either radar or IRST (the IRST giving better angular information but no range... the laser providing range in this instance) providing the angle to the target, a ballistic computer means the Mig pilot looks at the enemy plane and gets a lock (IRST or Radar or both) and starts manouvering his aircraft to get the aim point in his HUD into position. He pulls the trigger and holds it and when the target is aligned the onboard computer will fire a short burst to bring down the target.

It is now folklore that the designers stated if he had known the gun was going to use 5-7 rounds to defeat air targets he would have halved the amount of ammo carried to save weight. (at that time it was 150 rounds).

Deputy Defense Minister for Arms Procurement Vladimir Popovkin said the Defense Ministry would purchase the first 6 to 10 aircraft after 2012, based on the outcome of initial tests. He said the fighter will be superior to similar U.S. models.

The prime minister said 30 billion rubles (around $1 billion) had already been spent on the project and another 30 billion would be required to complete it, after which the engine, weaponry and other components would be upgraded.

He said the fighter would have a service life of 30-35 years, if modernization and upgrades are factored in, and would be around three times cheaper than its foreign analogs

Russia's only known fifth-generation project is Sukhoi's PAK FA and the current prototype is the T-50. It is designed to compete with the U.S. F-22 Raptor, so far the world's only fifth-generation fighter, and the F-35 Lightning II.

Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. The country's top military officials have said the stealth fighter jet with a range of up to 5,500 km should enter service with the Air Force in 2015.

The PAK FA is to be armed with next-generation air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, and has two 30-mm cannons.

next time a general goes to public and says we plan to buy 500 piecec of prudoct XYZ te standart answere to this should be "go fuck yourself!" who should believe you that? you say 500? i think you wanted to say 50?!?

Serial production isn't going to begin until 2016, and that is if everything goes as planned. I can guarantee something else will throw off the schedule, just about everything new we produce has failed the state acceptance certifications for some reason or another. The first regiment won't be certified until at least 2020, don't forget it takes two years to build and equip a new plane. By the time we get 50 plus the 10 prototypes it will be 2023. We should have a strong export market for the fighter so there will be little capacity to build for VVS. The 2nd batch all depends on making a 5th generation engine which our producers seem unable to do. It appears MoD is more than willing to accept having a pittance of an air force to defend the broad territory of the RF as numbers of modern fighters will fall into the few hundreds.

There is talk that the Mig design bureau has a light 5th gen fighter in development to fit in the role of smaller lighter and cheaper fighter that still has 5th gen qualities that should give it superiority over 4 and 4+ and 4++ gen fighters.The guy in charge of UAC has mentioned it in interviews a while back but it seems the program is on hold till the T-50 gets sorted. It sounds like they didn't want to detract from the main program and that once the T-50 is ready that this cheaper smaller fighter will be used for numbers and to fill gaps.Of course this was at a time when the T-50 was going to be Flanker sized or bigger, which is certainly isn't.Perhaps Sukhoi has scaled down the aircraft to reduce operational costs to get more orders.Su-35S and Mig-35s will probably operate for some time to come.