i believe im the only Prot pally on my server that has gone past council other than my guildie. Casuals struggle with the prot haste build. Even my guildie is complete trash at the haste build and uses a mastery build. Its what Choice said, nerfing will destroy most casuals.
Rubert from Anvilmar.

I'm sorry, but how is someone trash at a haste build? There's really nothing different from a haste build than a mastery build. The only main difference is that you are generating Holy Power quicker and thus have quicker "control" over things.

Reason most "casuals" other other new players don't use the haste build is that they are still under the understanding that Dodge/Parry are the tank stats and believe haste is a dps stat. I still half the players of other classes saying anyone with any stat other than dodge/parry on a paladin is bad and should be booted as they will cause issues.

I can't remember the exact quote I want to use here, but while its certainly reasonable to state that the majority of paladins don't use haste, their individual motivations and situations can't be predicted in such fashion. Ultimately, paladins in regards to their set up have this:

Massive control over how they mitigate damage, put out their healing, and play their class. From a game designers perspective the changes they introduced were a huge success. If you want proof of this, check the prot guide on this very site. After 8 months people still debate over set ups and play styles. Whatever you may think about certain people or certain builds, few other classes have this much depth to a single spec. Especially when you remember that blizzard sort of stumbled into this. You can't blame them for not wanting to gut it.

Now, that doesn't mean they're all balanced. And the issue we have right now is even though haste is still suboptimal from a damage intake perspective (as gear increases its 'control' has already converged to mastery being competitive with way more overall mitigation), the healing and dps it brings can't be scaled back without impacting either all builds or simply killing haste.

Ultimately I feel a haste cap at maybe ~35% is a good solution. It doesn't fix it current issues but it'll at least lock it down so our damage doesn't keep growing exponential as it is now. It also forces people back down the road of mastery rather than sticking to stacking haste in every socket.

That along with fucking off bubble resets next tier, and I don't see a problem.

How would they be nerfed? It feels like they'd need a bit of a makeover, which you don't just do mid-tier. Not to mention you'd need to probably nerf the tier as well as so many groups have been successful because of a prot pally.

Although I feel like another thing they could do is just make all of those tank debuffs not cleared by BoP or HoP or whatever it is. Maybe that's complicated coding, but it really is silly that if you have a certain type of tank and healer/dps, you can kind of just ignore tank swaps for extended periods of time, if you have to swap at all.

Am I the only one thats finding this teir to be a huge cock block if you dont have a palading tank?

So many fights are completely changed, and made 10x easier if you have a prot pala, its becoming such a joke trying to compete with other raid groups just because of this.

For example, Horridon you can completly ignore the tank swap, and the pala will do so much healing hes basically a 3rd tank
Tortos can be 1 tanked with a prot pala.. again huge healing to the raid
Megaera can be 1 tanked with a prot pala.. the pala basically does the same healing as an actual healer (lol)
Durumu can be 1 tanked 2 healed with the use of bops and again... stupidly high raid healing.
Iron Qon once again can be 1 tanked with bops and extra raid healing.

Am I completely missing something? Are prot palas really not what they seem? Why havnt blizzard nerfed them yet?

I feel like our 522 prot warrior should just re-roll to his 500 ilvl prot paladin and probably be a way better tank, then we can cheese all the encounters like every other guild.

Tired of "BOO HOO, Prot Pallies are too good, NERF THEM!" Stop your crying and live with it. Or should we nerf warriors? Or how about nerfing YOUR CLASS?

How would they be nerfed? It feels like they'd need a bit of a makeover, which you don't just do mid-tier. Not to mention you'd need to probably nerf the tier as well as so many groups have been successful because of a prot pally.

Although I feel like another thing they could do is just make all of those tank debuffs not cleared by BoP or HoP or whatever it is. Maybe that's complicated coding, but it really is silly that if you have a certain type of tank and healer/dps, you can kind of just ignore tank swaps for extended periods of time, if you have to swap at all.

In t12 they made it so most tank debuffs couldn't be cleared with bop/bubble, there have been random exceptions like morchok normal, but mostly its been prevented due to the obvious perks of being a paladin.

Before the change it still wasn't as bad as it is now. Depending on the prior it was either once per 5 mins, or once per 5 mins at the cost of your only cd for 2 minutes. It had benefits but you couldn't one tank fights intended for two purely with bubble. In the current game though, with 1 min forbereance, 2.5 minute bubbles and raiders with multiple bops each, it's ridiculous.

There was a similar discussion in /p/aladin yesterday (mmoc board that is), as I said then, the biggest mistake was allowing debuffs to clear again. It was obviously an experiment to test the waters, one that failed.

Sotr aligning with various attacks is op yes, but the same can be done for blood shield and sbarrier so they can't change it without addressing all the issues, plus lets be honest, being able to use your active mitigation effectively is what they want you to do. Ala sha and raden. Should it be removed a lot of depth is lost from those classes.

The dps is a problem, since the haste build carries the veng so much further than other tanks who are already ahead of dps. The fix would be to balance paladins around the haste. However as the average LFR paladin doesn't run haste, you'd be nerfing most casual players to the ground.

atleast in the damage category I have to disagree with you a bit maybe in 25 man the haste build carries the veng further but idk in 10 man paladins are like 3rd on damage of the tanks and in normal modes without good vengence (so I mean I feel our damage is fine). We need that amazing vengeance to pull those kinda numbers. I do believe we scale with vengence better than any other tanks and that is what makes us OP atm with 150k+ ticks of sacred shield and 650k WOG's. But if it comes down to 2 tanking a fight with a dps check on a fight that doesn't give 200k+ vengeance . Id rather let a monk Main tank or a blood dk take the vengeance (assuming purely who will do more dps is what were talking about like a hard enrage timer like heroic consorts or pushing P1 heroic lei shen.) Our healing and utility is another story and does need a "fix" of some kind. but we won't get "fixed" till 6.0 because at this point the battle healer nerf is just a blizz bandage. But I expect at least another nerf or warrior/dk/druid buffs in 5.4 because by then every boss will be giving us 250-500k vengeance sustained on heroic most likely and we will continue to outscale other tanks on vengeance.

I wouldn't say prot is ridiculously OP, but it is very strong. In fact, there's little arguing that it's the strongest tank to take. It's also not just because of 1 thing, like BOP or anything - as mentioned, any paladin brings that. It's basically everything, combined in 1 package, in a 1 class. That's what makes protdins strong. Their damage, healing, and vast vast vast utility is not something you can just ignore.

That doesn't mean paladins are the best tank in every situation. As recently proven by Paragon I think it was they used a monk tank for Lei Shen, as an example.

They ran prot paladin and replaced their drood with a monk.
Nothing you said mattered after that lol...

I think people in general are hallucinating about paladins being too high in raid healing. If you actually examine the heal/s numbers on a real parse, Battle Insight only usually comes out to somewhere between 20%-25% of the paladin's heal/s. The remainder of it is going to be predominantly Sacred Shield and Seal of Insight, which are components of the damage intake balance which happen to be scored as "healing" by the methodology of looking at a heal meter. If those components were removed hypothetically, you would immediately feel like Paladins were the worst tank, because those are not somehow bonus heal/s numbers, that's part of the class balance as a whole.

Furthermore, if you examine the actual damage input characteristics, paladins are not OP whatsoever, in fact in reality they take more damage on average at a given gear level than most of the other classes. The reason that we perceive them as OP is just two factors --

1) Most tank-killing encounters in current content have telegraphed physical attacks that SotR can be proactively lined up for; and
2) Most tank-killing encounters in current content have a stacking debuff that can be Bubbled/BoP'ed.

#2 is not necessarily unique to having a paladin tank, it just requires paladins in the raid and intelligent /cancelaura macros from the tanking player.

#1 is not an issue with class balance whatsoever, it's on the encounter designers.

The same exact nonsense was happening when DK's were mandatory in pre-nerf Dragonsoul heroics and Ulduar hardmodes, but the typical exaggerrators you find complaining on the internet conveniently don't remember that.

I don't get where people get that 20-25%? Okay, that is battle healer heal proportion, but that does not mean it's the number which prot paladin heals the raid because there is much more.

1) You switch SS to other tank when you're not tanking yourself.
2) You have WoGs (that should be used to raid heal if needed)
3) Lay on Hands
4) Holy Prism

I checked some logs we had from Iron Qon (which we 2 tanked when neither of tanks had off spec) and I from my total healing 57 % was done on me, which means that 43 % of all my hps was raid healing. I think it's quite huge. Prot paladins raid healing is much more than 20-25 % of his overall healing (if played properly).

Well, on the patch notes there's a nerf for the healing part you mention. Glyph of the Battle Healer is being nerfed from 30% to 20% of I recall, I know there's the healing nerf, that's it. And I don't mind not being nerfed, Paladins have been in a bad state earlier.

Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

The worry I have about this is that the healers in my guild are the weaker players in our whole outfit and our prot paladin was putting out some very impressive numbers with battle healer - so I think once the nerf goes through my healers won't be able to adjust to the missing healing that our tank has been doing.

Prot paladins don't need nerfing, you just don't understand how they work and are one of those people who read damage meters after a fight and take it at face value without understanding any of what those numbers actually mean or where they come from.

My team has cleared all content and we don't have a paladin on it at all. No pala tanks, no pala heals, and certainly no lulrets.

If you're raid team is bad, people just need to learn how to accept that instead of looking for something to hate on like prot pallies because maybe, in some part of the world, a prot paladin carried a raid as bad as yours past where yours is in progression doesn't mean they are OP and need nerfing.

I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

The worry I have about this is that the healers in my guild are the weaker players in our whole outfit and our prot paladin was putting out some very impressive numbers with battle healer - so I think once the nerf goes through my healers won't be able to adjust to the missing healing that our tank has been doing.

Well it's not that big nerf. Let's take example 100k hps from prot pala (which is high but not even close to impossible). With lower hps the nerf is even lower.