However, I think that warlords are likely to have more than a 50% chance of dying.

Nitpick here, but "on a long enough time scale the survival rate of anyone drops to 0"*. Care to be more specific with those odds?

*: a quote which still doesn't make rigurous sense, but you get the idea. Death and taxes.

True. The question is how long Jetstone has been around.

In the long run, the ratio would be

[ (warlord lifespan) ] : [ (caster lifespan) * (caster pop rate) ]

If there is a 1 in 100 chance of casters popping and they live 10 times as long as normal warlords, then for a given side, there should be a 10:1 ratio of warlords to casters.

However, steady state might not actually be achieved. A caster's lifespan might be de-facto until the side they are part of is destroyed. They would either be croaked or end up in the Magic Kingdom, which is functionally equivalent, for these purposes.

Also, caster type would make a difference. The lifespan of a Foolamancer would likely be lower than a Thinkamancer, as there seems little point in a thinkamancer ever leaving the capital.

I think we've covered why this is both unsatisfactory, and seems to clearly contradict the rules (I'll limit myself mainly to why it seems to contradict the mechanics of the game as we've been told, rather than why the story would be bad). If the Archons aren't in the battle space (as claimed), then they're useless. If they are in the battle space, people would know because they'd have to take a turn. Some people have suggested resolutions to this problem, but none satisfying. Among them:a) A turnmancer did it [ problem- it makes turnmancers way too powerful]b) Charlie is allied to Jillian [ problems- Jillian isn't leader of the coalition and it seems ridiculous she has the authority to do this, the text doesn't indicate the archons came in with her either, the leader of the coalition should be able to see all the troops on their side like Ansom was, one of the 48 warlords or casters should have spotted the archons by now, the archons of GK and Jack should definitely have spotted the archons by now, etc, etc. It also just comes off as ridiculous that you can add troops to a side you are allied to so they move on the same turn as your alliance without telling the rest of the alliance, why hasn't someone used this obvious strategic hole by now, like Haggar who could have hired out all manner of secret forces? Lastly, let's say Jillian has a turn separate to the RCC2, even though that isn't consistent with how coalitions work (which remember, we're told she is a part of), how can she have a separate turn without GK knowing? Without the element of surprise being lost to surrounding sides and factions? Isn't it ridiculously dangerous to allow an army of this scope into your base with their own turn, while almost your entire army is more than a turn away? Ridiculous. RCC2 must have more protection than that].c) Maybe the airspace at a certain height is a new hex- problems- Doesn't seem to be the case so far, and if it is why haven't other sides used this? Especially Ansom, who could have just flown in by stealth with a veiled dwagon army and stomped an unprepared Jetstone. It requires us to take everyone else as a fool.

A bit of smack talking in the ranks while the parley continues.I mentioned this on the past page as a possible plotline: The Battle of Camlann.

Here's my prediction: Ossomer, for whatever reason ( orders from Stanley, goaded into it), launches the attack before Wanda returns. He realizes too late that Charlie has massive forces in the battlespace. Wanda tries to croak Jillian, which as always, does no harm to Jillian and rebounds on Wanda, incapacitating her and leaving her Jillian's prisoner. Realizing that they have booped up and his forces are in disarray, Stanley puts Parson back in charge to extract the flyers and do some fancy footwork to stop the main column being wiped out.Jillian doesn't pursue the fleeing forces, but heads back to Faq to have some fun in the dungeon with Wanda on the receiving end for a change.Tremenis is smart enough to realize that if the attack on Spacerock fails, attacking the column is not a smart idea as Haggar will finish off the loser, better to preserve the stand-off between the three sides. End result a stalemate, with Jillian out of the alliance, Wanda a prisoner and Parson back as chief warlord of GK.

A bit of smack talking in the ranks while the parley continues.I mentioned this on the past page as a possible plotline: The Battle of Camlann.

Here's my prediction: Ossomer, for whatever reason ( orders from Stanley, goaded into it), launches the attack before Wanda returns. He realizes too late that Charlie has massive forces in the battlespace. Wanda tries to croak Jillian, which as always, does no harm to Jillian and rebounds on Wanda, incapacitating her and leaving her Jillian's prisoner. Realizing that they have booped up and his forces are in disarray, Stanley puts Parson back in charge to extract the flyers and do some fancy footwork to stop the main column being wiped out.Jillian doesn't pursue the fleeing forces, but heads back to Faq to have some fun in the dungeon with Wanda on the receiving end for a change.Tremenis is smart enough to realize that if the attack on Spacerock fails, attacking the column is not a smart idea as Haggar will finish off the loser, better to preserve the stand-off between the three sides. End result a stalemate, with Jillian out of the alliance, Wanda a prisoner and Parson back as chief warlord of GK.

I have considered this too, except:a) Ossomer is completely loyal to Wanda, and won't attack without her permission.b) Charlie wants Wanda dead, he has to kill her, just as others do, which makes me wonder how Jillian escapes alive, when Charlie will happily sacrifice all his battlefield troops in a suicidal attack on the source of all his woes. Plus, it makes FAQ an immediate target of every force, which is suicide.

I have considered this too, except:a) Ossomer is completely loyal to Wanda, and won't attack without her permission.b) Charlie wants Wanda dead, he has to kill her, just as others do, which makes me wonder how Jillian escapes alive, when Charlie will happily sacrifice all his battlefield troops in a suicidal attack on the source of all his woes. Plus, it makes FAQ an immediate target of every force, which is suicide.[/quote]

But:a) Stanley is his Overlord, without Wanda there to give direct orders, doesn't he have to obey Stanley? His loyalty is to Wanda, but Where does his Duty lie?b) does Charlie want her dead, or does splitting the Archentools so they're not on the same side achieve his ends of holding the balance of power? A stalemate suits Charlie just fine. If Jillian takes Wanda prisoner, Wanda will ally herself with Faq in pretty short order, and then nobody will want to antagonize them.

I think we've covered why this is both unsatisfactory, and seems to clearly contradict the rules (I'll limit myself mainly to why it seems to contradict the mechanics of the game as we've been told, rather than why the story would be bad). If the Archons aren't in the battle space (as claimed), then they're useless. If they are in the battle space, people would know because they'd have to take a turn. Some people have suggested resolutions to this problem, but none satisfying. Among them:-snip-

D) Instead of allying with Faq, Charlie just gave jillian archons to command... so they move when she moves because they are her units; this is not something the RCC needs to know...

we know this is possible since it turns out that Charlie's contracts include the ability to hire charlie archons that will fight other charlie archons... meaning it is possible for Charlie to hire his units out to two sides... since it seems impossible to be allied to two different sides in the same battle space, in the case of higher level contracts he just gives the archons to command instead of remaining in control himself and never actually allies with the side in question.

as for how they are hidden from the sight of enemy archons, that remains to be seen... though with an unknown caster in the field, and the fact that various schools of magic have not been shown in detail; there are endless possibilities.

We've overtly been told by Wanda that the decrypted are loyal to her, that they are not truly GK's. But it's been very obvious for some time now, with updates and otherwise, that the decrypted are basically like the Dwagons... they're loyal to the wielder of the artifact, which is Wanda. The only premise anyone has disputed is whether Wanda has to be loyal to GK, and there is very little evidence of this fact, and quite alot the other way. The truth remains to be seen.

Ossomer getting a thinkagram that "appears to be" Stanley yelling at him to "attack, attack!" doesn't seem like the sort of order he's going to prize above the safety and good wishes of his Mistress (and as far as we can tell, complete and total master).

Leaving Wanda alive leaves the death ball and all the current troops alive, including alot of cities and a future threat that has to be dealt with. Anyone who can mass animate armies of archons with zero upkeep cost can't be kept alive, Charlie knows that.

I think we've covered why this is both unsatisfactory, and seems to clearly contradict the rules (I'll limit myself mainly to why it seems to contradict the mechanics of the game as we've been told, rather than why the story would be bad). If the Archons aren't in the battle space (as claimed), then they're useless. If they are in the battle space, people would know because they'd have to take a turn. Some people have suggested resolutions to this problem, but none satisfying. Among them:-snip-

D) Instead of allying with Faq, Charlie just gave jillian archons to command... so they move when she moves because they are her units; this is not something the RCC needs to know...

we know this is possible since it turns out that Charlie's contracts include the ability to hire charlie archons that will fight other charlie archons... meaning it is possible for Charlie to hire his units out to two sides... since it seems impossible to be allied to two different sides in the same battle space, in the case of higher level contracts he just gives the archons to command instead of remaining in control himself and never actually allies with the side in question.

Well, firstly from a narrative point of view it doesn't seem as though they entered Jetstone's battlespace jointly:

Quote:

To minimize encounters, they'd flown a tortuous route over the most difficult terrain. Charlie didn't want either side knowing he had significant forces in the battlespace. But he had still gone to great risk to give her cover along the way, using veiled Archons to scout out safe routes.

Implying very strongly Charlie is either already in the battle space, or somewhere else on his way there, and sent Archons to Jillian to help. Also:

Quote:

Charlie's Archons occasionally brought them some extra provisions, but mostly she and her units ate popped rations. It was strange having a treasury again. The upkeep for herself, three Warlords, and all of these heavies (and for Titans' sake, a Caster) would have been a lot more than her purse could have supported as a Barbarian, even if she'd had the mercenary income to fill it up every turn.

This further implies as much, and additionally has Jillian noting the cost of upkeep for her forces (which doesn't include Archons). If she isn't paying for their upkeep, it seems unlikely that they count as "her forces".

But that's just hypothesis. The logical reasons are far more difficult to surmount in a plausible way. You are basically proposing that Jillian (who has her own turn, or moves with RCC2, you haven't made this clear) is able to add forces to the coalition, and the rest of the coalition doesn't know about it. She doesn't have any authority to do this, the commander of the RCC should be able to see all their forces, it would be ridiculous if minor alliance members could do this (Haggar could bring a veiled archon army if this was the case, or an underground army into spacerock without telling Jetstone, and nobody would know... why hasn't he done such obvious stuff btw?). This is all only plausible if they entered the battlespace at the same time as well. And somehow nobody has noticed this army of archons in the time they've been there, not the 48+ warlords, not the casters, not GK's archons, not Jack. They are just hovering invisibly in the battlespace. Even if it's technically possible (because of rules we don't know about, and because of luck) it's still a blatant and awful Deus Ex Machina.

Well, firstly from a narrative point of view it doesn't seem as though they entered Jetstone's battlespace jointly:

The "charlie didn't want either side to know" thing was refering to the RCC and GK, NOT FAQ... the updates was mostly from jillian's perspective, she knows that Charlie's archons are there.

Quote:

This further implies as much, and additionally has Jillian noting the cost of upkeep for her forces (which doesn't include Archons). If she isn't paying for their upkeep, it seems unlikely that they count as "her forces".

Unless Charlie is also giving Jillian the Money to cover their upkeep while she's commanding them... much like how Charlie is covering the Costs for VannaPart of the reason Jillian is willing to go along with Charlie is probably because he is not costing her anything; he is not asking her for any money; he's in the fight for his own sake

Quote:

But that's just hypothesis. The logical reasons are far more difficult to surmount in a plausible way. You are basically proposing that Jillian (who has her own turn, or moves with RCC2, you haven't made this clear) is able to add forces to the coalition, and the rest of the coalition doesn't know about it. She doesn't have any authority to do this, the commander of the RCC should be able to see all their forces, it would be ridiculous if minor alliance members could do this

I see no problem with it...Jillian does not need to ask the RCC if she can Pop new units from her cities and i do not think she would need to ask them if she wanted to hire a caster from the magic kingdom... Hell she didn't even need to ask the RCC if she could ask the giants to become her natural allies... as such i see no reason why she would need to ask the RCC if she can add charlie's archons as her units... you had a valid point about adding charlie to the alliance without the RCC's knowledge, but i see no reason why she can not just add units under her power; the reasoning is not the same... it is just your own pure speculation that the RCC leader must know of all units at all time... frankly, if she had to ask the RCC if she could do anything, it would be giving the RCC leader too much power and authority over HER units...

Quote:

(Haggar could bring a veiled archon army if this was the case, or an underground army into spacerock without telling Jetstone, and nobody would know... why hasn't he done such obvious stuff btw?). This is all only plausible if they entered the battlespace at the same time as well.

Yes they could... the reason they don't is because Charlie cost's money and they do not see the need for his help... as far as they are concerned, they can take Spacerock with just their own forces once GK and Jetstone are done fighting; they have had like 50 turns to prepare for this fight and are certain they can win as is.

fact of the matter is that "trust" is a part of being in an alliance... at anytime, a side can break alliance and attack their former allies; so you need to trust them to not betray you... hell making an alliance could be a way some sides actually try to take down their enemies; titans know that's exactly what Haggar is doing right now... you should not ally with a side you do not trust... you trust them to keep you up to date on units, trust them to follow the plan, and trust them not to betray you... fact is each side still has plenty of their own power while in an alliance

Quote:

And somehow nobody has noticed this army of archons in the time they've been there, not the 48+ warlords, not the casters, not GK's archons, not Jack. They are just hovering invisibly in the battlespace. Even if it's technically possible (because of rules we don't know about, and because of luck) it's still a blatant and awful Deus Ex Machina.

as for how they are hidden from the sight of enemy archons, that remains to be seen... though with an unknown caster in the field, and the fact that various schools of magic have not been shown in detail; there are endless possibilities. For all we know, the caster can teleport/summon units from a nearby hex... or maybe we are about to see a little stagamancy/carnymancy/hatmagic and see how you turn a several of megalogwiffs into a bunch of archons without using a viel... hell the archons could be hiding in plain sight, disguised as infantry riding Gwiffens (no magic required)

Or team Charlie is hiding hexes away somewhere? Didn't in one of the text updates say she parted with them in a nearby forest?

This would be fine. Except then they'd be useless in this battle, which is probably why they're described in the update as being in the battle space, not "several hexes away".

Quote:

I see no problem with it...Jillian does not need to ask the RCC if she can Pop new units from her cities and i do not think she would need to ask them if she wanted to hire a caster from the magic kingdom... Hell she didn't even need to ask the RCC if she could ask the giants to become her natural allies... as such i see no reason why she would need to ask the RCC if she can add charlie's archons as her units... you had a valid point about adding charlie to the alliance without the RCC's knowledge, but i see no reason why she can not just add units under her power; the reasoning is not the same... it is just your own pure speculation that the RCC leader must know of all units at all time... frankly, if she had to ask the RCC if she could do anything, it would be giving the RCC leader too much power and authority over HER units...

The troops she commits to the RCC are not the same as the ones back in her cities. They're all under one banner. That's why we see Ansom decides when to end turn for the whole side, not just Jetstone's forces. He can likewise command and see all his forces as far as we are led to believe, and it would be odd if he couldn't. It is also absurd plot wise that if Jillian has her own turn and forces, that she would be allowed into Spacerock with a huge and visible force when it is nearly defenceless. What sort of idiots are we expected to believe the RCC are? They'll also have been on the look out for veiled troops trying to enter their battle space, knowing what they know about GK, and being hostile to Charlie... how the heck could this force remain hidden, and more to the point how the hell is it being hidden now with Jack, a guy who can veil cities and more? If they're within the distance of a city, Jack at the least should see them coming. Teleporting them in is also ridiculous, and much like the turnmancer it breaks the game and begs the question of why this sort of tactic hasn't been used before, and thought about.

What's probably funniest is that the same people arguing the feasibility of a giant veiled archon army are the same ones who seem to think Wanda must obey Stanley, because she fights on his side (remember, we don't know the relationship between Stanley and Wanda, let alone all the evidence we've seen to the contrary). If the latter premise is true, then Jillian should probably offer this information to her side, not to mention that Charlie's forces lose all their independence on this analysis, being forced to obey Jillian, making them nearly useless to him.

The troops she commits to the RCC are not the same as the ones back in her cities. They're all under one banner. That's why we see Ansom decides when to end turn for the whole side, not just Jetstone's forces. He can likewise command and see all his forces as far as we are led to believe, and it would be odd if he couldn't. It is also absurd plot wise that if Jillian has her own turn and forces, that she would be allowed into Spacerock with a huge and visible force when it is nearly defenceless. What sort of idiots are we expected to believe the RCC are? They'll also have been on the look out for veiled troops trying to enter their battle space, knowing what they know about GK, and being hostile to Charlie... how the heck could this force remain hidden, and more to the point how the hell is it being hidden now with Jack, a guy who can veil cities and more? If they're within the distance of a city, Jack at the least should see them coming. Teleporting them in is also ridiculous, and much like the turnmancer it breaks the game and begs the question of why this sort of tactic hasn't been used before, and thought about.

Jillian does not have her own turn, just her own units...and i don't know what your getting at at pointing out that the RCC are idiots... as we are seeing RIGHT NOW< jillian has the full power to break alliance from the RCC, attack and conquer spacerock... nothing is stopping her from doing so, the reason they let her enter spacerock when they were defenceless is the same reason why Slately is relying on Haggar; they have no choice... they have no choice but to trust jillian to remain loyal to the RCC... this is part of the game, and this is why you do not make alliances with those you generally do not trust (unless you are desperate)

Furtharmore, Ansom had been consulting the other warlords in all matters, and it has not been shown that he has full authority over them... fact of the matter is, the allied units may have only been following ansom's orders because the warlor'ds commanding those units are WILLINGLY following his orders... hell at time it seems like the jetstone troops are following the orders of of foreign warlord's... they are sharing the command where needed... the ONLY thing that we know for certain Ansom had absolute authority over was ending the turn

Also one Ansom did NOT know all the units at all times... when Parson attacked the seige units, Ansom had no idea he was loosing units... he had to wait unit he recieved a battle report from those that were in the column

And would jetstone see veil troops if they were to enter... no not necessaily because they have no foolamancer or archons... they got nothing but warlords, but depending on how clever the veil, the more clever the warlord's must be to notice if a veil is in use... and fact of the matter is that they are not gonna place suspicion upon those that they are relying on to aid them in a time of need, which lowers their chances of noticing vieled units by ALOT... fact is, they are not gonna be looking for veiled units amongst jillians forces...

furtharmore, as the last part of my post points out that there may be other ways to hide units other than using a viel... all jack and the archons can see are illusions, but illusions may not be the ONLY way to hide units; you should stop assumign as such...

Teleportation would have obvious limitations based on juice... the more units you want to teleport, the less far you can more them... kind like the uncroaking (wanda can uncroak a whole hex units but they will turn to dust quickly)... in theory, a masterclass mancer of this type might be able to move 1000 units at once, but only move them one hex; or it could take a single units and teleport them 1000 hex's away... i see no reason why teleporting would be anymore game breaking than any other caster

Hell i'm sure their are plenty of Turn based games that probably included teleportation... why was this not used before? because we have not seen those casters in action before. The RCC may not have the casters themselves, meaning they would have to hire them from the magic kingdom or buy scrolls... The RCC did not seem to need them at the battle of GK, so they would not have used them... the only use GK would have had for them is making an escape, but stanely had an alternate plan for that... fact of that matter is we have not seen it used because no one seemed to have the casters or have the need to use such an ability...

The troops she commits to the RCC are not the same as the ones back in her cities. They're all under one banner. That's why we see Ansom decides when to end turn for the whole side, not just Jetstone's forces. He can likewise command and see all his forces as far as we are led to believe, and it would be odd if he couldn't. It is also absurd plot wise that if Jillian has her own turn and forces, that she would be allowed into Spacerock with a huge and visible force when it is nearly defenceless. What sort of idiots are we expected to believe the RCC are? They'll also have been on the look out for veiled troops trying to enter their battle space, knowing what they know about GK, and being hostile to Charlie... how the heck could this force remain hidden, and more to the point how the hell is it being hidden now with Jack, a guy who can veil cities and more? If they're within the distance of a city, Jack at the least should see them coming. Teleporting them in is also ridiculous, and much like the turnmancer it breaks the game and begs the question of why this sort of tactic hasn't been used before, and thought about.

Jillian does not have her own turn, just her own units...and i don't know what your getting at at pointing out that the RCC are idiots... as we are seeing RIGHT NOW< jillian has the full power to break alliance from the RCC, attack and conquer spacerock... nothing is stopping her from doing so, the reason they let her enter spacerock when they were defenceless is the same reason why Slately is relying on Haggar; they have no choice... they have no choice but to trust jillian to remain loyal to the RCC... this is part of the game, and this is why you do not make alliances with those you generally do not trust (unless you are desperate)

And would jetstone see veil troops if they were to enter... no not necessaily because they have no foolamancer or archons... they got nothing but warlords, but depending on how clever the veil, the more clever the warlord's must be to notice if a veil is in use... and fact of the matter is that they are not gonna place suspicion upon those that they are relying on to aid them in a time of need, which lowers their chances of noticing vieled units by ALOT... fact is, they are not gonna be looking for veiled units amongst jillians forces...

furtharmore, as the last part of my post points out that there may be other ways to hide units other than using a viel... all jack and the archons can see are illusions, but illusions may not be the ONLY way to hide units; you should stop assumign as such...

Teleportation would have obvious limitations based on juice... the more units you want to teleport, the less far you can more them... kind like the uncroaking (wanda can uncroak a whole hex units but they will turn to dust quickly)... in theory, a masterclass mancer of this type might be able to move 1000 units at once, but only move them one hex; or it could take a single units and teleport them 1000 hex's away... i see no reason why teleporting would be anymore game breaking than any other caster

Hell i'm sure their are plenty of Turn based games that probably included teleportation... why was this not used before? because we have not seen those casters in action before. The RCC may not have the casters themselves, meaning they would have to hire them from the magic kingdom or buy scrolls... The RCC did not seem to need them at the battle of GK, so they would not have used them... the only use GK would have had for them is making an escape, but stanely had an alternate plan for that... fact of that matter is we have not seen it used because no one seemed to have the casters or have the need to use such an ability...

Jillian doesn't have her own turn... I'm glad we agree on that. And who takes her turn for her? Oh wait, it's the leader of the alliance she's in, just like Ansom did in Book 1. So we agree that Jillian sacrifices some of her power and autonomy by joining an alliance... something she normally would do, she can't do without the approval of her coalition leader. So the question is what exactly you can get away with in a coalition, and if hiding your troops from the rest of the coalition is one of them. Logically, this seems ridiculous for several reasons.

Firstly, as far as we see in book 1, Ansom made all the decisions for forces in his side. Warlords can see the stats and points of their units. Even Stanley can see the points of decrypted units, which belong to Wanda (something she reaffirms for us). So the leader of the RCC2 should be able to see the points and stats of the units in their side (regardless of whether those forces can break alliance if their leader tells them to). We haven't been given any evidence to suggest if the soldier is veiled, then the warlord for whom they are fighting suddenly loses the ability to see their points, or more importantly to detect that they have a unit there. In fact, only recently we see Ossomer can tell whether or not his forces have been veiled, despite being within where the veil itself would be.

If an ally can really sneak in forces and you don't get to see their units, it not only seems problematic in light of book 1, but really begs the question of why you'd ever forge an alliance, if they can sneak in any number of troops into your battlespace (underground, wherever), especially someone you don't trust 100%. You certainly wouldn't let them in your battlespace. You suggest that it's because they're desperate, but there is no reason they couldn't have deployed Jillian elsewhere (behind a hillside, in a cave, etc), you know, somewhere other than the middle of their fortifications. Being desperate doesn't mean being stupid. And given the high level of distrust right now they have of Haggar, and all their allies generally, you'd expect Jetstone to be extra wary and cautious... they'd be scouting every place they could for a sign of deception or veils. In the time Jillian has been there/the archons have, they've found nothing with over 48 warlords, casters, access to fliers, etc?! It's incredibly implausible. While it's possible that maybe a few Megalogwiffons are veiled archon forces (though it also stretches credibility given you'd think Duncan for eg would have noticed), heck that would explain the magical increase in their size (from 6 to 10, because it was plot convenient), that doesn't seem like enough of a force to sway the battle. In addition, it's hard to see how nobody would have noticed yet. It's definitely ridiculous that nobody would notice cloud moving at the same speed as Jillian enter the battlespace with her.

As to the rest, bizarre explanations could technically pull this off, if they're not DEM's, but I'm skeptical, and recently hints in the narrative have only worsened my fears (why are there now 10 Megas?). I don't agree on your analysis of game breaking power... that stuff would be hugely gamebreaking, and seems beyond any magic we've seen so far. In the case of teleporting, only a few obvious problems render it too powerful. We're not just talking teleporting, we're talking teleporting an army into another hex, when it isn't your turn. It renders the whole turn system useless, because a mancer with such teleporting powers would be able to ignore turns. That's gamebreaking.

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