Plushenkos loss had little to do with age or previous injury! He went to the Vancouver games with the dumbest program design of anyone there! Decided to ignore basically everything about 2008 and 2009 worlds because the winners didn't do quads! It was the worst mistake in strategy a champion in skating ever had! Plushenko was the only one in Vancouver who had quad triple triple axel and level 4 spins! He lost because of idiocy in strategy that's unparalleled in skating history.

Um, I am sorry. I believe from your other posts that you're a Plushenko fan, which is why I am, to be honest, a little shocked that you would dismiss his injuries and age like this. From this post, it seems that you are saying that it was "dumb" for him to have jumped the quad at the Vancouver Olympics, and that is the reason why he didn't get the gold there?

I know that Plushenko's programs in 09/10 weren't the most COP-friendly ones. I also think that by now perhaps there's no need to rehash all those arguments about Vancouver. But just regarding how his performances in that competition seems to get talked about: I have seen skating fans say that it was a stupid mistake to jump the quad. I have also seen skating fans say that he was "conservative" and "took his opponents lightly" because he jumped only one quad in the LP and didn't add a second one. I have seen skating fans say that the shortcomings in the area of transitions showed that he wasn't "sincere" in trying. I have seen someone call him a "fool" because "he would have won if he'd added a double after the 4-3" (paraphrase). All this seems to insist on ignoring the fact that at the time, he was struggling with his weight ("as with a worst enemy", in his own written words), the fact that all his injuries were still with him, especially his knees (to the extent that he was considering not competing in RN earlier that season, if I recall), and the fact that in modern men's skating, no Olympic champion before him had been away for three years, and returned to make it onto the Olympic pedestal again.

Regarding the quad: I am only a fan and I don't claim to know him better than anyone else, but as far as I can recall, over all the years he's been competing as a senior, there were about three occasions when he did not attempt a quad in a competition program (two of which were after Vancouver). All three were situations where he was suffering from very serious injuries. From things he had said before and after Vancouver (including comments on competitions that he himself wasn't in), I believe that it is his view that the quad is, in principle, an important, perhaps essential part of men's singles skating. (Note that he did not say that he considered it the only thing that mattered.) To hold such principles about figure skating, and to try to carry them out, may be seen as idealistic or idiotic, that's for each skating fan to decide. For me personally, that I consider it the former is one of the main reasons why I am a Plushenko fan.

It's somewhat ironic to me, that on the one hand, before each of his comebacks one sees many people say that Plushenko is too old, too injured, been gone for too long, it's impossible, etc., yet on the other hand, once he does come back, and if there are flaws in his performance, suddenly it turns around, and it's all because he (and his team) is "dumb", "arrogant", "lazy", not taking competitors seriously, not understanding the rules, etc. All this based on what technical elements he did or did not include/emphasize on ice. It seems that such statements can only be based on the assumption that somehow everything comes to him for free, physically and technically, and that somehow it really only depends on whatever he wants to do. There was some of this in 05/06, too, and perhaps something similar even this January. Maybe my experience is limited, but I don't recall seeing this kind of assumptions applied to any other skater. From others, perhaps to some extent that is to be expected, but, I am sorry, this is absolutely meant as a personal criticism or anything, but i have to say that it saddens me to see him being taken for granted by other fans of him.

I apologize for this hijack of the thread, which is about Evan. It's my usual soapbox about Plushenko, but his name got mentioned here. To be honest, I am not sure if it is really all that useful to compare him with Lysacek in terms of injuries or predicted chances. In the end, each skater has his or her own battles to fight, I guess.

Um, I am sorry. I believe from your other posts that you're a Plushenko fan, which is why I am, to be honest, a little shocked that you would dismiss his injuries and age like this. From this post, it seems that you are saying that it was "dumb" for him to have jumped the quad at the Vancouver Olympics, and that is the reason why he didn't get the gold there?

I know that Plushenko's programs in 09/10 weren't the most COP-friendly ones. I also think that by now perhaps there's no need to rehash all those arguments about Vancouver. But just regarding how his performances in that competition seems to get talked about: I have seen skating fans say that it was a stupid mistake to jump the quad. I have also seen skating fans say that he was "conservative" and "took his opponents lightly" because he jumped only one quad in the LP and didn't add a second one. I have seen skating fans say that the shortcomings in the area of transitions showed that he wasn't "sincere" in trying. I have seen someone call him a "fool" because "he would have won if he'd added a double after the 4-3" (paraphrase). All this seems to insist on ignoring the fact that at the time, he was struggling with his weight ("as with a worst enemy", in his own written words), the fact that all his injuries were still with him, especially his knees (to the extent that he was considering not competing in RN earlier that season, if I recall), and the fact that in modern men's skating, no Olympic champion before him had been away for three years, and returned to make it onto the Olympic pedestal again.

Regarding the quad: I am only a fan and I don't claim to know him better than anyone else, but as far as I can recall, over all the years he's been competing as a senior, there were about three occasions when he did not attempt a quad in a competition program (two of which were after Vancouver). All three were situations where he was suffering from very serious injuries. From things he had said before and after Vancouver (including comments on competitions that he himself wasn't in), I believe that it is his view that the quad is, in principle, an important, perhaps essential part of men's singles skating. (Note that he did not say that he considered it the only thing that mattered.) To hold such principles about figure skating, and to try to carry them out, may be seen as idealistic or idiotic, that's for each skating fan to decide. For me personally, that I consider it the former is one of the main reasons why I am a Plushenko fan.

It's somewhat ironic to me, that on the one hand, before each of his comebacks one sees many people say that Plushenko is too old, too injured, been gone for too long, it's impossible, etc., yet on the other hand, once he does come back, and if there are flaws in his performance, suddenly it turns around, and it's all because he (and his team) is "dumb", "arrogant", "lazy", not taking competitors seriously, not understanding the rules, etc. All this based on what technical elements he did or did not include/emphasize on ice. It seems that such statements can only be based on the assumption that somehow everything comes to him for free, physically and technically, and that somehow it really only depends on whatever he wants to do. There was some of this in 05/06, too, and perhaps something similar even this January. Maybe my experience is limited, but I don't recall seeing this kind of assumptions applied to any other skater. From others, perhaps to some extent that is to be expected, but, I am sorry, this is absolutely meant as a personal criticism or anything, but i have to say that it saddens me to see him being taken for granted by other fans of him.

I apologize for this hijack of the thread, which is about Evan. It's my usual soapbox about Plushenko, but his name got mentioned here. To be honest, I am not sure if it is really all that useful to compare him with Lysacek in terms of injuries or predicted chances. In the end, each skater has his or her own battles to fight, I guess.

I didn't mean to dismiss Plushenko's age or injuries entirely! If the whole free skate design was about working around his injuries that is something I neglected. He never did any other kind of layout really when he competed under COP. The original comment was about "if Plushenko couldn't come back and win then certainly Lysacek couldn't" But the Plushenko program design was so bad in addition to previous injuries or even ones present at the time just not that bad.

I don't know....it's a bit of a stretch for Evan and Plushenko with all the new talent out there...even Patrick Chan and Daisuke Takahashi will be feeling the pressure from the young guns. I remember when Elvis tried to make a comeback for an Olympics, did not work out so well for him. Anyway good luck to Evan.

"He's recovering from his injuries and his surgeries which were a lot more extensive than a lot of people know. It's getting better and better but he is in pain and he has to be very careful with how much he does. I don't know in figure skating if someone has tried to come back from that level of injury."

I'm curious as to this assertion by Mr Carroll (specifically the part I've underlined - not the former part, which I've merely quoted for context). Thoughts?

Actually, Elvis Stojko made an attempt to come back after his injury and skated in pain for many of his competitions. I don't know why Frank Carrol would say that. There have been many skaters over the years who have made comebacks after horrible injuries.

I didn't mean to dismiss Plushenko's age or injuries entirely! If the whole free skate design was about working around his injuries that is something I neglected. He never did any other kind of layout really when he competed under COP. The original comment was about "if Plushenko couldn't come back and win then certainly Lysacek couldn't" But the Plushenko program design was so bad in addition to previous injuries or even ones present at the time just not that bad.

I really admire you as a contributor. You have your favorites... but don't we all? But you manage to be objective enough to advance the conversation.

Actually, Elvis Stojko made an attempt to come back after his injury and skated in pain for many of his competitions. I don't know why Frank Carrol would say that. There have been many skaters over the years who have made comebacks after horrible injuries.

I think he was trying to say the type of injury(ies) that Evan had is more significant (rightly or wrongly). In theory it's easier to bounce back from a groin injury than a hip or knee problem... the torn Ab muscle may be on par with a groin issue, though.

Actually, Elvis Stojko made an attempt to come back after his injury and skated in pain for many of his competitions. I don't know why Frank Carrol would say that. There have been many skaters over the years who have made comebacks after horrible injuries.

Sometimes when you're talking about something that's immediate and important to you, you tend to forget what came before. Either that, or Carroll is one of those people who talks in hyperbole out of habit. Simon Cowell (not that I'm meaning to compare the two in any other way!) often says something like "that's the worst presentation I've ever heard." They can't all be the worst!

In a world where Hongbo Zhao tore (didn't just pull) his Achilles tendon and then returned (at a pretty advanced age, too) to win first an Olympic bronze and then a gold, It's unlikely that Evan's injury is the worst ever. I'm sure it's bad, but he's not the only one with such a challenge.

Plushenkos loss had little to do with age or previous injury! He went to the Vancouver games with the dumbest program design of anyone there! Decided to ignore basically everything about 2008 and 2009 worlds because the winners didn't do quads! It was the worst mistake in strategy a champion in skating ever had! Plushenko was the only one in Vancouver who had quad triple triple axel and level 4 spins! He lost because of idiocy in strategy that's unparalleled in skating history.

As a huge fan, I 100% agree.

Originally Posted by pangtongfan

All true as well, but either way 27 year old Plushenko was a much poorer skater than 23 year old Plushenko had been, and I am sure a 28 year old Evan would also be a much poorer skater than 24 year old Evan had been. Yet even 24 year old Evan at his best would do nothing on the World scene today.

True, but when Plushenko was 23 the gap between him and other contenders was huge. At 27 injured and everything but with a good strategy he could have won, in fact he was really close.