3) I really don't know why people feel that way. I understand the desire to keep things they way they are in comics, but Ultron is a lot more like Tony than Hank.

Isn't that what makes Ultron such a good foil for Hank. That his creation in some ways is more ambitious, decisive and driven than he is. Ultron is the realization of a lot of Hank's insecurities and fears about himself and his talents.

I really don't see how Tony is going to be fazed about creating Ultron aside from a bit of "whoops" and "I guess I done goofed" but ultimately Tony is much more self confident and assured than Hank. He's had 2 movies to prove to himself that he is a hero and be at peace with who he is. He might feel guilty about Ultron but I just don't see it tearing him personally apart like it did to Hank.

__________________

Cass: Where are we going?

The Doctor: Back of the ship.
Cass: Why?
The Doctor: Because the front crashes first. Think it through.

Isn't that what makes Ultron such a good foil for Hank. That his creation in some ways is more ambitious, decisive and driven than he is. Ultron is the realization of a lot of Hank's insecurities and fears about himself and his talents.

I really don't see how Tony is going to be fazed about creating Ultron aside from a bit of "whoops" and "I guess I done goofed" but ultimately Tony is much more self confident and assured than Hank. He's had 2 movies to prove to himself that he is a hero and be at peace with who he is. He might feel guilty about Ultron but I just don't see it tearing him personally apart like it did to Hank.

I don't get the bolded part, people say that, but break that down for me. How are Ultron's actions related to Hank's insecurities. What I've been told is that Ultron's brain is patterned after Hank's... but then I see them act completely different on every level. I don't know that that actually makes sense.

Tony seems to be quite fazed by all his other goofs. He's yet to, in his own films, fight a villain that's not of his own creation on some level. And, fortunately, Tony is very human. He can be as awesome as he wants to be, but give him a few aliens, all of a sudden he has PTSD. Now, the difference would be that Tony would recover, I can see that as a complaint, that Ultron isn't as profound a figure if the hero recovers from the personal crisis of responsibility.

I don't get the bolded part, people say that, but break that down for me. How are Ultron's actions related to Hank's insecurities. What I've been told is that Ultron's brain is patterned after Hank's... but then I see them act completely different on every level. I don't know that that actually makes sense.

Tony seems to be quite fazed by all his other goofs. He's yet to, in his own films, fight a villain that's not of his own creation on some level. And, fortunately, Tony is very human. He can be as awesome as he wants to be, but give him a few aliens, all of a sudden he has PTSD. Now, the difference would be that Tony would recover, I can see that as a complaint, that Ultron isn't as profound a figure if the hero recovers from the personal crisis of responsibility.

Ultron's psychology (in the comics) is very simple. It's an Oedipus complex. He hates Daddy (Hank), and literally wants to mate with Mommy (Janet). That's been the story arc for Ultron for the past 50 years, up to and including 2013.

It's what makes him creepier and more psychotic and more unique than just a basic killer robot (no matter how uber), which is *all* he'd be as a Stark creation.

Ultron's psychology (in the comics) is very simple. It's an Oedipus complex. He hates Daddy (Hank), and literally wants to mate with Mommy (Janet). That's been the story arc for Ultron for the past 50 years, up to and including 2013.

It's what makes him creepier and more psychotic and more unique than just a basic killer robot (no matter how uber), which is *all* he'd be as a Stark creation.

Why couldn't his Oedipal complex be transferred to Tony and Pepper? Why can't that transition from Hank to Tony along with everything else?

Ultron's psychology (in the comics) is very simple. It's an Oedipus complex. He hates Daddy (Hank), and literally wants to mate with Mommy (Janet). That's been the story arc for Ultron for the past 50 years, up to and including 2013.

Isn't that what makes Ultron such a good foil for Hank. That his creation in some ways is more ambitious, decisive and driven than he is. Ultron is the realization of a lot of Hank's insecurities and fears about himself and his talents.

I really don't see how Tony is going to be fazed about creating Ultron aside from a bit of "whoops" and "I guess I done goofed" but ultimately Tony is much more self confident and assured than Hank. He's had 2 movies to prove to himself that he is a hero and be at peace with who he is. He might feel guilty about Ultron but I just don't see it tearing him personally apart like it did to Hank.

Ultron's psychology (in the comics) is very simple. It's an Oedipus complex. He hates Daddy (Hank), and literally wants to mate with Mommy (Janet). That's been the story arc for Ultron for the past 50 years, up to and including 2013.

So Hank has an Oedipus complex? Or are the thoughts unrelated to Hank's thoughts? That was my question, not what are Ultron's thoughts, but how they come from Hank's brain scan.

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It's what makes him creepier and more psychotic and more unique than just a basic killer robot (no matter how uber), which is *all* he'd be as a Stark creation.

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Originally Posted by The Question

Why couldn't his Oedipal complex be transferred to Tony and Pepper? Why can't that transition from Hank to Tony along with everything else?

So Hank has an Oedipus complex? Or are the thoughts unrelated to Hank's thoughts? That was my question, not what are Ultron's thoughts, but how they come from Hank's brain scan.

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Originally Posted by The Question

Why couldn't his Oedipal complex be transferred to Tony and Pepper? Why can't that transition from Hank to Tony along with everything else?

Precisely this question. Like literally, why not?

They could do that, and it would make a good story easily and make sense. But it would be like taking the death of Peter Parker's parents and giving that story to Daredevil. Or saying the Hulk is an alien from another planet sent to Earth by his alien father before the planet was destroyed. Since this is fiction you can do that, but this has always been one of Hank Pym's MAJOR and maybe only vital stories. Hank has always been the creator of Ultron. His character has always been this self loathing guy who creates the greatest AI but it backfires and becomes his greatest failure. Its part of Pym's character. Whereas Tony Stark, while it would fit in and be a continuation of what we have already seen, isn't a failure in the same way. Stark is in fact one of the examples Pym uses to tell himself he is a failure. Stark is a former friend, he is rich, famous, smarter than Pym, and always succeeds in everything.

This is how I see Ultron's psychology in the comics, he was created by Hank Pym. Pym has always suffered from several severe mental problems and illnesses, anxiety, self doubt, self loathing, depression, schizophrenia, resentment of those around him, and on and on. But he takes medication, and he doesn't really hate the Avengers/ his friends and his wife and himself, but a small part of him does.
He used his own brain patterns to create Ultron's mind.
When Ultron became evil and started killing and attacking humanity and especially the Avengers and Pym and Janet, it was almost like Pym's dark side attacking everyone.

To me, Ultron represents the dark side of Pym. The one he tries to hide, ignore, and take medication to try and make go away. In my opinion Ultron's psychology has always been that he was given all of Pym's fears, doubts, hatreds, loathings, resentments, angers, anxieties, etc. He hates the humanity, the Avengers, Janet, and especially hank Pym, because deep down hank Pym does, even if its just the smallest amount.
Also, He used Janet's mind to create Alkhema, a mate for himself.

To me its like Hank took all his dark feelings and thoughts and made them real and alive by putting them in a robot body. Almost like on Dragon Ball where that one guy tried to banish evil from himself and created an evil clone version (Piccolo?).

So, to me, Ultron is also like the son who is taught by his father (Pym) to hate and be a bigot. He is taught what to hate and fear. Then Ultron goes on to have his own son (Vision) and tries to teach him what to hate and fear. But now the reformed grandfather (Pym) steps in to save his grandson (Vision) from that same life of bigotry. And Vision joins the Avengers.

In other words, Ultron hates humanity, and the Avengers, and the Wasp, and especially hank Pym, because his mind is a copy of Hank Pym's mind, and his robot programing cannot read it correctly. Or like the AI character from Green Lantern, he can only focus on the darkness because thats all his mind was given by Pym, and wants to destroy humanity because his robot feelings cannot process the pain.

They could do that, and it would make a good story easily and make sense. But it would be like taking the death of Peter Parker's parents and giving that story to Daredevil. Or saying the Hulk is an alien from another planet sent to Earth by his alien father before the planet was destroyed. Since this is fiction you can do that, but this has always been one of Hank Pym's MAJOR and maybe only vital stories. Hank has always been the creator of Ultron. His character has always been this self loathing guy who creates the greatest AI but it backfires and becomes his greatest failure. Its part of Pym's character. Whereas Tony Stark, while it would fit in and be a continuation of what we have already seen, isn't a failure in the same way. Stark is in fact one of the examples Pym uses to tell himself he is a failure. Stark is a former friend, he is rich, famous, smarter than Pym, and always succeeds in everything.

This is how I see Ultron's psychology in the comics, he was created by Hank Pym. Pym has always suffered from several severe mental problems and illnesses, anxiety, self doubt, self loathing, depression, schizophrenia, resentment of those around him, and on and on. But he takes medication, and he doesn't really hate the Avengers/ his friends and his wife and himself, but a small part of him does.
He used his own brain patterns to create Ultron's mind.
When Ultron became evil and started killing and attacking humanity and especially the Avengers and Pym and Janet, it was almost like Pym's dark side attacking everyone.

To me, Ultron represents the dark side of Pym. The one he tries to hide, ignore, and take medication to try and make go away. In my opinion Ultron's psychology has always been that he was given all of Pym's fears, doubts, hatreds, loathings, resentments, angers, anxieties, etc. He hates the humanity, the Avengers, Janet, and especially hank Pym, because deep down hank Pym does, even if its just the smallest amount.
Also, He used Janet's mind to create Alkhema, a mate for himself.

To me its like Hank took all his dark feelings and thoughts and made them real and alive by putting them in a robot body. Almost like on Dragon Ball where that one guy tried to banish evil from himself and created an evil clone version (Piccolo?).

So, to me, Ultron is also like the son who is taught by his father (Pym) to hate and be a bigot. He is taught what to hate and fear. Then Ultron goes on to have his own son (Vision) and tries to teach him what to hate and fear. But now the reformed grandfather (Pym) steps in to save his grandson (Vision) from that same life of bigotry. And Vision joins the Avengers.

In other words, Ultron hates humanity, and the Avengers, and the Wasp, and especially hank Pym, because his mind is a copy of Hank Pym's mind, and his robot programing cannot read it correctly. Or like the AI character from Green Lantern, he can only focus on the darkness because thats all his mind was given by Pym, and wants to destroy humanity because his robot feelings cannot process the pain.

This is a great analysis! Removing Pym from the Ultron origin story not only does a disservice to both characters but it cheapens the depth of the universe as a whole. Yes, Stark can serve as a substitute for Pym because "he's a smart guy too" and because of the J.A.R.V.I.S. A.I. but let's spread the wealth around a little. Tony Stark doesn't need to be the center of EVERYTHING. Especially something that, in the source material, he had absolutely NOTHING to do with.

Also, not to be rude, but who cares about the Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon? A non-canon, highly inaccurate cartoon from a few years ago should not override the 50 years of comic history from which it draws inspiration. If the film-makers want to replace Pym with Stark it should be organic reasons, not because a recent cartoon made it okay. Should H.E.R.B.I.E the robot replace the Human Torch in the next Fantastic Four movie?

Replacing Pym with Stark may "make sense" but, as Artistsean shows, there are plenty of reasons to be disappointed about such a decision.

__________________"If you shoot, you're a killer. If you don't shoot, you have a death on your conscience. A death you could have prevented""What kind of a choice is that?""The one I make every time I pull the trigger"

Does anyone have a transcript of what Joss Whedon and Edgar Wright actually said at Comic Con? Word for word? I wasn't there and all the jumping to conclusions and rumors and hear say is hard to decipher. Since I wasn't there maybe he only said that Hank Pym wont be an Avenger for all I know.

They could do that, and it would make a good story easily and make sense. But it would be like taking the death of Peter Parker's parents and giving that story to Daredevil. Or saying the Hulk is an alien from another planet sent to Earth by his alien father before the planet was destroyed. Since this is fiction you can do that, but this has always been one of Hank Pym's MAJOR and maybe only vital stories.

You're comparing major story arcs to origin stories. Thats' not at all an even comparison. A better comparison would be giving The Death of Gwen Stacy bridge scene to Mary Jane or something like that, fusing Whiplash and Crimson Dynamo. The basis of the character hasn't changed, just one of their major stories/villains has.

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Hank has always been the creator of Ultron. His character has always been this self loathing guy who creates the greatest AI but it backfires and becomes his greatest failure. Its part of Pym's character. Whereas Tony Stark, while it would fit in and be a continuation of what we have already seen, isn't a failure in the same way. Stark is in fact one of the examples Pym uses to tell himself he is a failure. Stark is a former friend, he is rich, famous, smarter than Pym, and always succeeds in everything.

This is how I see Ultron's psychology in the comics, he was created by Hank Pym. Pym has always suffered from several severe mental problems and illnesses, anxiety, self doubt, self loathing, depression, schizophrenia, resentment of those around him, and on and on. But he takes medication, and he doesn't really hate the Avengers/ his friends and his wife and himself, but a small part of him does.
He used his own brain patterns to create Ultron's mind.
When Ultron became evil and started killing and attacking humanity and especially the Avengers and Pym and Janet, it was almost like Pym's dark side attacking everyone.

To me, Ultron represents the dark side of Pym. The one he tries to hide, ignore, and take medication to try and make go away. In my opinion Ultron's psychology has always been that he was given all of Pym's fears, doubts, hatreds, loathings, resentments, angers, anxieties, etc. He hates the humanity, the Avengers, Janet, and especially hank Pym, because deep down hank Pym does, even if its just the smallest amount.
Also, He used Janet's mind to create Alkhema, a mate for himself.

To me its like Hank took all his dark feelings and thoughts and made them real and alive by putting them in a robot body. Almost like on Dragon Ball where that one guy tried to banish evil from himself and created an evil clone version (Piccolo?).

This actually makes some kind of sense. It's still not consistent though... Ultron doesn't display any self loathing, fear or doubt, does he?. Regardless, it's definitely not an Oedipus complex, that still doesn't make sense. I see what you're getting at though. I think a Stark!Pym would be more like the Civil War Tony Stark, sort of a ends-justify-the-means futurist rather than someone who hates humanity per se.

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So, to me, Ultron is also like the son who is taught by his father (Pym) to hate and be a bigot. He is taught what to hate and fear. Then Ultron goes on to have his own son (Vision) and tries to teach him what to hate and fear. But now the reformed grandfather (Pym) steps in to save his grandson (Vision) from that same life of bigotry. And Vision joins the Avengers.

In other words, Ultron hates humanity, and the Avengers, and the Wasp, and especially hank Pym, because his mind is a copy of Hank Pym's mind, and his robot programing cannot read it correctly. Or like the AI character from Green Lantern, he can only focus on the darkness because thats all his mind was given by Pym, and wants to destroy humanity because his robot feelings cannot process the pain.

That actually is a good story, I can see why you guys like it so much.

This also means all the theories about some non-founding Avenger Hank Pym inventing Ultron are utterly meaningless, as they would not have all that hatred for the Avengers involved. Which kinda brings me to the point where this scenario is not available. It's a good story, but it was lost the moment Edgar Wright said he was making Ant-Man and it didn't center on Pym and he wouldn't be ready for Avengers. Regardless, they have to come up with some other reason for Ultron hating humanity, because Pym's hatred for humanity just doesn't exist in this Universe.

They could do that, and it would make a good story easily and make sense. But it would be like taking the death of Peter Parker's parents and giving that story to Daredevil. Or saying the Hulk is an alien from another planet sent to Earth by his alien father before the planet was destroyed.

Well yeah. That's what happens when you have to combine characters when adapting a story. If there was a scenario where someone was adapting a comic book and they absolutely had to combine Spider-Man and Daredevil that might be alright. I don't see a scenario where that would come up, but hypothetically maybe.

I think however, that the Superman/Hulk example you gave is very extreme. That would change what the character is all about. This wouldn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artistsean

Since this is fiction you can do that, but this has always been one of Hank Pym's MAJOR and maybe only vital stories. Hank has always been the creator of Ultron. His character has always been this self loathing guy who creates the greatest AI but it backfires and becomes his greatest failure. Its part of Pym's character. Whereas Tony Stark, while it would fit in and be a continuation of what we have already seen, isn't a failure in the same way. Stark is in fact one of the examples Pym uses to tell himself he is a failure. Stark is a former friend, he is rich, famous, smarter than Pym, and always succeeds in everything.

This is how I see Ultron's psychology in the comics, he was created by Hank Pym. Pym has always suffered from several severe mental problems and illnesses, anxiety, self doubt, self loathing, depression, schizophrenia, resentment of those around him, and on and on. But he takes medication, and he doesn't really hate the Avengers/ his friends and his wife and himself, but a small part of him does.
He used his own brain patterns to create Ultron's mind.
When Ultron became evil and started killing and attacking humanity and especially the Avengers and Pym and Janet, it was almost like Pym's dark side attacking everyone.

To me, Ultron represents the dark side of Pym. The one he tries to hide, ignore, and take medication to try and make go away. In my opinion Ultron's psychology has always been that he was given all of Pym's fears, doubts, hatreds, loathings, resentments, angers, anxieties, etc. He hates the humanity, the Avengers, Janet, and especially hank Pym, because deep down hank Pym does, even if its just the smallest amount.
Also, He used Janet's mind to create Alkhema, a mate for himself.

To me its like Hank took all his dark feelings and thoughts and made them real and alive by putting them in a robot body. Almost like on Dragon Ball where that one guy tried to banish evil from himself and created an evil clone version (Piccolo?).

So, to me, Ultron is also like the son who is taught by his father (Pym) to hate and be a bigot. He is taught what to hate and fear. Then Ultron goes on to have his own son (Vision) and tries to teach him what to hate and fear. But now the reformed grandfather (Pym) steps in to save his grandson (Vision) from that same life of bigotry. And Vision joins the Avengers.

In other words, Ultron hates humanity, and the Avengers, and the Wasp, and especially hank Pym, because his mind is a copy of Hank Pym's mind, and his robot programing cannot read it correctly. Or like the AI character from Green Lantern, he can only focus on the darkness because thats all his mind was given by Pym, and wants to destroy humanity because his robot feelings cannot process the pain.

That's legit. But it looks like Hank Pym isn't going to get that kind of focus in the MCU movies. It happens. It sucks but sometimes you've got to make that sacrifice for the sake of the story. So you might as well combine that aspect with Tony, who in the MCU is way more neurotic than he's usually portrayed in the comics anyway, to salvage what Ultron's whole deal is.

Also, not to be rude, but who cares about the Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon? A non-canon, highly inaccurate cartoon from a few years ago should not override the 50 years of comic history from which it draws inspiration. If the film-makers want to replace Pym with Stark it should be organic reasons, not because a recent cartoon made it okay. Should H.E.R.B.I.E the robot replace the Human Torch in the next Fantastic Four movie?

Would Ultron work in an Ant-Man film if Wright was going with an action film with comedic undertones? If Hank was in the Avengers 2 film what purpose would he serve besides dying a heroic death.

Forget what we know about Pym in the comics.What does he add to the MCU. I don't see him being a constant member of the Avengers in the MCU. I don't even see his film getting a sequel.

That's kind of the point. Pym is an interesting character from a personality veiwpoint and a powers viewpoint - size changing hasn't been done in the MCU yet. Also, let's not forget that he not only shrank as Ant-Man but he grew as Giant Man/YellowJacket/Goliath as well. His brain and unique abilities would make him a great addition to the movie universe Avengers. He's got the history. Although he's not as interesting as Cap, Iron Man, or Thor, he's great in smaller doses (no pun intended) much like Widow and Hawkeye.

I would actually argue that an Ant-Man movie makes much less sense than simply including the character in the Avengers. I love Stark and Pym but it's not fair to have Stark create Ultron and Pym doesn't really deserve his own movie. The whole thing feels weird.

__________________"If you shoot, you're a killer. If you don't shoot, you have a death on your conscience. A death you could have prevented""What kind of a choice is that?""The one I make every time I pull the trigger"

Pym is arguably the most important Avengers member after the Big Three (Tony, Cap, Thor). He is a founding member, has spent his time creating a lot of inventions and gadgets for the Avengers throughout the decades (even more than Iron Man), is a major scientist in the Marvel universe, etc.

Having an Avengers team without Hank Pym is like having a Justice League team without Green Lantern or Flash. My biggest problem with the MCU Avengers so far is how they completely pushed him aside and pretended like he is not important at all. Not only will he be showing up at least until Avengers 3 but he has now also been robbed of his most interesting story arc by not having him be the creator of Ultron.

That's kind of the point. Pym is an interesting character from a personality veiwpoint and a powers viewpoint - size changing hasn't been done in the MCU yet. Also, let's not forget that he not only shrank as Ant-Man but he grew as Giant Man/YellowJacket/Goliath as well. His brain and unique abilities would make him a great addition to the movie universe Avengers. He's got the history. Although he's not as interesting as Cap, Iron Man, or Thor, he's great in smaller doses (no pun intended) much like Widow and Hawkeye.

I would actually argue that an Ant-Man movie makes much less sense than simply including the character in the Avengers. I love Stark and Pym but it's not fair to have Stark create Ultron and Pym doesn't really deserve his own movie. The whole thing feels weird.

If Ant-Man wasn't getting his own film I would say he should be in Avengers 2, but why does he even have to be an Avenger? Will Doctor Strange be an Avenger? Will Black Panther? If we did a Punisher or Daredevil film would they be Avengers?

We don't have any street level heroes in the MCU. Maybe Ant-Man can be the 1st.

If Ant-Man wasn't getting his own film I would say he should be in Avengers 2, but why does he even have to be an Avenger? Will Doctor Strange be an Avenger? Will Black Panther? If we did a Punisher or Daredevil film would they be Avengers?

We don't have any street level heroes in the MCU. Maybe Ant-Man can be the 1st.

That's kind of a flawed statement. Ant-Man (both Pym and Lang versions) were Avengers. As Shikamaru said a post above, Pym was a FOUNDING Avenger (alongside Iron Man, Thor, and Wasp - Cap came in a few issues later). The character is known for being an Avenger (50 years of comics!), not for being a solo character. About your other characters:

Dr. Strange became an Avenger 5-6 years ago but he was in some prominent stories and made quite a few guest appearances.

Black Panter has been an Avenger for over 30 years. He has become more of a solo character in recent years but he still has quite a history with team.

Daredevil became an Avenger VERY recently. He has had very limited experience with the team but he has been a (New) Avenger before.

Punisher has never been an Avenger (outside of alternate realities)and never will/should be. His morality does not fit with the team's standards and firm stance against killing.

Those were some poor examples. Panther is definitely an Avenger. Strange and Daredevil COULD be Avengers (Daredevil is stretching it) but nope to the Punisher.

__________________"If you shoot, you're a killer. If you don't shoot, you have a death on your conscience. A death you could have prevented""What kind of a choice is that?""The one I make every time I pull the trigger"

What I'm saying everyone in the MCU doesn't have to be Avengers. Ant-Man could be a hero doing his own thing. He could be the bridge that expands the street level hero. Why are we tied to doing things the old way?

GoTG will be treated as a stand alone to expand the cosmic side of the MCU.
Dr. Strange will be a standalone to expand the major side.
Why not use Ant-Man to eventually introduce us to the Luke Cages, the Daredevils,etc.