Mistook you for that badger guy. My mistake which is why I removed that portion of my original post. I apologize for the name-calling.

But you're acting as entitled as the people that rage on WoW because it's not exactly what they want. If people don't like the game, they won't play it. Funcom has never reversed their standpoints on difficulty due to whining, and I doubt they'd do so with TSW.

I share your sentiments. I don't want the average WoW player "ruining" the experience for me. But box sales and subscriptions= recouped expenses and funding for new content. You have to take the good with the bad. Eventually, those people that come to TSW seeking the next WoW-killer or WoW-clone are going to be disappointed and leave.

Stop trying to start stuff. Sarahjane redacted that part of her post, leave it be.

Also, how do you propose a game be successful if it's a secret? Quickest way to kill an MMO is to have very few people playing it.

Yeah I do understand. I would rather there be a slow curve of growth through a dedicated 500,000 rather than see 3 million at launch with 1.5 complaining that the ability wheel is too complicated Trust me I do know it wont remain a secret and the masses will come. I just wish before that happens a stable dedicated base will form. A base that will allow funcom to say to those masses "This is our game."

Mistook you for that badger guy. My mistake which is why I removed that portion of my original post. I apologize for the name-calling.

But you're acting as entitled as the people that rage on WoW because it's not exactly what they want. If people don't like the game, they won't play it. Funcom has never reversed their standpoints on difficulty due to whining, and I doubt they'd do so with TSW.

I share your sentiments. I don't want the average WoW player "ruining" the experience for me. But box sales and subscriptions= recouped expenses and funding for new content. You have to take the good with the bad. Eventually, those people that come to TSW seeking the next WoW-killer or WoW-clone are going to be disappointed and leave.

all is good m8.

I need to take a smoke or have a drink... didn't expect those things to sound like fighting words to me Didn't know I felt that strongly about the concept of the game.

I see this as the brain child of a genius gamer, that had God smile on him and allow him to bring that vision to us. (oh my.. this is worse than I thought) bbl going to smoke and ponder religion...

What would this "This is our game" supposed to mean?
"We did it, and don't you dare criticizing it! Like it or leave it!"?

Funcom is not an Indie game developer. They make a game for money. Considering how much time, effort and money goes into creation of MMO it's idiotic to make it for a very narrow group of players. They will cater to a larger audience. Even if only to refund their expenses on the game.

What you are looking for is a single player game. There you can have secrets and have no "masses".
MMO are "MASSive multiplayer online" games.

What would this "This is our game" supposed to mean?
"We did it, and don't you dare criticizing it! Like it or leave it!"?

Funcom is not an Indie game developer. They make a game for money. Considering how much time, effort and money goes into creation of MMO it's idiotic to make it for a very narrow group of players. They will cater to a larger audience. Even if only to refund their expenses on the game.

What you are looking for is a single player game. There you can have secrets and have no "masses".
MMO are "MASSive multiplayer online" games.

What would this "This is our game" supposed to mean?
"We did it, and don't you dare criticizing it! Like it or leave it!"?

Funcom is not an Indie game developer. They make a game for money. Considering how much time, effort and money goes into creation of MMO it's idiotic to make it for a very narrow group of players. They will cater to a larger audience. Even if only to refund their expenses on the game.

What you are looking for is a single player game. There you can have secrets and have no "masses".
MMO are "MASSive multiplayer online" games.

Funcom actually is an independent developer and publisher. The whole premise behind TSW is to make the players think and struggle. The developers themselves said they want the game "to kick your ass." Press that participated in the hands-on events vouch that the game is hard.

The last thing MMOs need is more of the same that caters to the same audience as everything else out there. And an MMO doesn't need 10 million subs to be successful and profitable.

edit: I don't want to turn this into an "us vs. them" or "mine vs. yours" type of discussion. I just want to project that the reason so many people are passionate about the game is because it's a game that's trying to pioneer a new setting while breaking other MMO standards to truly create something special in today's gaming. The directors are well aware that the game might be too hard or might not appeal to the whole spectrum of gamers, but it's a risk they're willing to take.

Funcom actually is an independent developer and publisher. The whole premise behind TSW is to make the players think and struggle. The developers themselves said they want the game "to kick your ass." Press that participated in the hands-on events vouch that the game is hard.

The last thing MMOs need is more of the same that caters to the same audience as everything else out there. And an MMO doesn't need 10 million subs to be successful and profitable.

Are you trying to tell me that Funcom doesn't expect to make profits from this game but to make unique MMO and amaze us with it?
That's what they say, right?
Well, Blizzard's main goal is to make great games as well, according to them. Something that majority of people here won't agree with.

MMO doesn't need million subs to be succesful, true. But in case of a game which was in development for years (work on this one started in 2007 = almost 5 years) you need some good numbers to get positive balance. Especially if it's going to have decent graphics, animatics and sound/music - this stuff takes a lot of people to make. This isn't some indie game, it's a full blown commercial production.

I'll add to it, that Funcom was considering make Dreamfall sequel as downloadable chapter DLCs needing to be logged in. Reason? Their income on Dreamfall wasn't as high, mostly because the game was often pirated.

Catering to large audience is exactly what MMO needs. It's in its definition.
If you wanna special game, which you can play without masses, or only with specific people then you don't need an MMO. And you don't need good graphics and art. You need indie single player, or standard multiplayer game.

Catering to large audience is exactly what MMO needs. It's in its definition.
If you wanna special game, which you can play without masses, or only with specific people then you don't need an MMO. And you don't need good graphics and art. You need indie single player, or standard multiplayer game.

You see we are at a fundamental impasse when it comes to design. I believe you don't sell your soul for mass appeal (G.U.R.U. circa 1997). You create with your soul and that's what will be appealing to the masses.

You can make a pop song with well used harmonies and melodies and make lots money ie. swtor or p. diddy. Or your you can tell your story, and the better that story is told, the more people relate and say this is my story too i.e. D&D or Tupac.

There are plenty of games out there that have gone the pop route, and that's ok as long as we have options.

But the thing is that Funcom is independent. They have the ultimate say in what they want the game to be, and their investors gave them that money because they saw the merit in that vision. So no, Funcom doesn't need to do anything. Sure, if they don't make any profit on TSW, they'll be in some deep stuff, but that's neither here nor there for any of us.

This thread isn't about what we're discussing right now. None of us work for Funcom. None of us are developers or investors. We're all allowed to our opinions about the game, but let's stick to facts because facts are friendly. Let's not derail the thread any more than we already have.

Tomorrow will bring an influx of information from GDC showings. If anybody find anything interesting, please feel free to share.

edit: I don't want to turn this into an "us vs. them" or "mine vs. yours" type of discussion. I just want to project that the reason so many people are passionate about the game is because it's a game that's trying to pioneer a new setting while breaking other MMO standards to truly create something special in today's gaming. The directors are well aware that the game might be too hard or might not appeal to the whole spectrum of gamers, but it's a risk they're willing to take.

My only point is that with project that big, they may want to make their game special and pioneer, under the condition that it remains profitable. And noone should forget that. So it doesn't make sense to expect that big game company will cut its own income just to make you happy and ignore thousands other people (potential customers).

My only point is that with project that big, they may want to make their game special and pioneer, under the condition that it remains profitable. And noone should forget that. So it doesn't make sense to expect that big game company will cut its own income just to make you happy and ignore thousands other people (potential customers).

You're right. I wouldn't say I expect them to do what I want, but I do hope they stick to what they plan. Considering they have nearly a million beta sign-ups, I'd stay they're sitting on pretty solid ground right now. But we'll have to wait and see how it pans out.

This is the thinking mans mmo. 18 and up not for kids. Most of you will not like it. Missions will be too long, and abilities too complicated. This game is nothing like WoW SWToR or RIFT. Yet many of you will still play and scream for things those games have. If you are looking for your traditional theme park mmo, this is not the game for you. If all you want to play is 3-4 hours a week, you will not reap the rewards of someone who plays 15 hours a week. Dungeons are hard, not dungeons over lunch.

I hope this will save some people some time.

I've played this game in beta for a while, and it's really nothing that you say it is here, per my reckoning. The better part of valor tells me not to break the NDA, and as such I won't say much more than questing is annoyingly throttled and not free-flow per the last beta build. Missions and questing were neither too long nor too complicated on the greater whole. I've loved Ragnar Tornquist games since TLJ and as such was gung-ho for TSW. Playing the beta has me seriously reconsidering. We'll see what shakes out of the next build though.

I say advertise the crap out of this game, hype it up like crazy! tons of people will flock to it, and when the casuals leave we will still be here, and FC will have made a bucket of cash from box sales. then, as the core player base becomes entrenched, and talk of just how good the game is comes out, some of those people will return, and we'll get new players waiting for the word. I want this game to be huge, it looks like the mmo i have been waiting for.

I've played this game in beta for a while, and it's really nothing that you say it is here, per my reckoning. The better part of valor tells me not to break the NDA, and as such I won't say much more than questing is annoyingly throttled and not free-flow per the last beta build. Missions and questing were neither too long nor too complicated on the greater whole. I've loved Ragnar Tornquist games since TLJ and as such was gung-ho for TSW. Playing the beta has me seriously reconsidering. We'll see what shakes out of the next build though.

We must be rubbing on different betas, because I think the flow is great. Focusing on one thing at a time brings the story to life much better than gathering up 15 fed-ex and killplz and ignoring quest text altogether.

I say advertise the crap out of this game, hype it up like crazy! tons of people will flock to it, and when the casuals leave we will still be here, and FC will have made a bucket of cash from box sales. then, as the core player base becomes entrenched, and talk of just how good the game is comes out, some of those people will return, and we'll get new players waiting for the word. I want this game to be huge, it looks like the mmo i have been waiting for.

We must be rubbing on different betas, because I think the flow is great. Focusing on one thing at a time brings the story to life much better than gathering up 15 fed-ex and killplz and ignoring quest text altogether.

Hrm - you think so? You're not getting rid of the "15 fedex/kill 10 rats" quests, you're simply forced to do them in chunks of 3 quests 5 times instead of all at once. That to me is way more tedious as I have to run to the same areas over and over again for quests I could've done while there the first time. That coupled with the fact that I'd have to give up on a quest currently in progress to pick up a new "Oh, cool - what's this?!" quest I find out in the world while questing really kills any sense of flow because it's this structured, methodical "Pick up 3 quests, run out and do them, run back to town" rinse/repeat cycle.

Admittedly, there's more than 3 quest types, but per the last build there were several types that shared the same type of quest slot, so that I never had more than 3 if I recall correctly. I did say "On the greater whole" as there were a few noteworthy missions that were a bit more unique than the garden variety, but they were the outlier, not the norm. In all of Kingsmouth, I can think of only a handful of quests that weren't "Pick up this object and bring it to this place" or "Kill this many of these" style quests.

To each their own, I suppose. Clearing main street a fourth time to get to Bob's Snack Shack to grab this item in front of the store when I should've been able to grab it on the previous three trips to grab items in front of the store just kills it for me.

To each their own, I suppose. Clearing main street a fourth time to get to Bob's Snack Shack to grab this item in front of the store when I should've been able to grab it on the previous three trips to grab items in front of the store just kills it for me.

I'll agree with you on that. There are quite a few place where you have to backtrack that just kinda feels bleh. It still feels like a better experience to me than just about every other MMO I've played.