Baby Names and Cultural Identity

From:
Aditch

To: enyo

Posted: Dec-31 03:54 PM (42 of 85)

I suspect that it comes from my annoyance in the pagan community with fluffy pagans and paperback priestesses deciding to mix and match things for their religious practices with no idea as to why or where it came from.

I think you are taking one item and using it to be annoyed at another.

Mixing it up is the core of new paganism. It is what allowed us to survive.

When a newbie picks and chooses without education they are doing it wrong and with any luck they will learn.

But choosing a name outside of your culture is not the same as worshiping a God you don't understand.

For example, I gave my daughter a Hittite name. Should I have not because I am not Hittite? It is better to let that culture die? I am not worshiping their culture, I am honoring it.

I suspect that it comes from my annoyance in the pagan community with fluffy pagans and paperback priestesses deciding to mix and match things for their religious practices with no idea as to why or where it came from.

I think you are taking one item and using it to be annoyed at another.

Mixing it up is the core of new paganism. It is what allowed us to survive.

When a newbie picks and chooses without education they are doing it wrong and with any luck they will learn.

But choosing a name outside of your culture is not the same as worshiping a God you don't understand.

For example, I gave my daughter a Hittite name. Should I have not because I am not Hittite? It is better to let that culture die? I am not worshiping their culture, I am honoring it.

No I am arguing that ancestry and culture are not the same thing. As nationality and culture are not the same.

Your blood contains many differing ethnicities, but your culture is what you describe as Southern. You are living in Canada. Your children have the same ethnic background as you and your husband, but their culture is not yours, nor is it your husband's. They are going to have American and Canadian culture. There are then sub-cultures intertwined within the main Canadian culture.

I am Scottish, Cherokee, and British, with a few other ethnic groups thrown in for fun. The Scottish and British come from the 1600's and 1700's the Cherokee comes in 1800 and 1900's. Then it's mixed American from there on out.

My culture is American. My husband is Central American, Belizean to be exact. His culture is a mixture of Central American and American, he came here at 10 and lived within a family that was not 100% assimilated. I grew up in Oakland, CA, I guarantee that my 'American culture' and your 'American culture' are two different things. My husband lived in Oakland, we grew up together, our culture is still not the same.

Our children are now growing up in California, in a small college town, that is most definitely NOT Oakland, CA. They are being raised by me, and my husband. What is their culture? They are American and Belizean. Their ethnicity is a mix of Scottish, Cherokee, British, African, Mayan, Portuguese, and whatever else is thrown in on there. What names are ok? Cherokee is their ethnicity, but not their culture, African is not their culture, Mayan, some aspects trickle down due to my husband living for 10 years in Central American, but again not their culture.

The names that are your southern culture are American to you, but not to me. The names from my Bay Area, CA culture are American to me, but not to you.

If naming your child for a culture that is not yours is not appropriate, then which of (My ancestry just on *my* side of the family includes the following: German, English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish, French, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Arabic, and Cherokee, among others.) those should you choose? Those are all your culture or your ancestry?

Picking an Arabic name that you like might honor your ancestry but what does it have to do with your southern personality? Growing flowers and drinking mint julips?

If naming your child Khamair or Sharai means something to a blond haired blue eyed person how is that inappropriate? If they like the name how is that disrespectful or not ok?

There's nothing wrong with naming your child something that honors part of your culture, but just because it's your ancestry doesn't make it your culture. And just because it's not part of your ancestry doesn't mean it's not part of your culture.

My culture includes the Black Panthers but I don't look like that's my ancestry. Which do I choose, blood or experience?

And how do you know/judge my experience by looking at my hair/eye color?

No I am arguing that ancestry and culture are not the same thing. As nationality and culture are not the same.

Your blood contains many differing ethnicities, but your culture is what you describe as Southern. You are living in Canada. Your children have the same ethnic background as you and your husband, but their culture is not yours, nor is it your husband's. They are going to have American and Canadian culture. There are then sub-cultures intertwined within the main Canadian culture.

I am Scottish, Cherokee, and British, with a few other ethnic groups thrown in for fun. The Scottish and British come from the 1600's and 1700's the Cherokee comes in 1800 and 1900's. Then it's mixed American from there on out.

My culture is American. My husband is Central American, Belizean to be exact. His culture is a mixture of Central American and American, he came here at 10 and lived within a family that was not 100% assimilated. I grew up in Oakland, CA, I guarantee that my 'American culture' and your 'American culture' are two different things. My husband lived in Oakland, we grew up together, our culture is still not the same.

Our children are now growing up in California, in a small college town, that is most definitely NOT Oakland, CA. They are being raised by me, and my husband. What is their culture? They are American and Belizean. Their ethnicity is a mix of Scottish, Cherokee, British, African, Mayan, Portuguese, and whatever else is thrown in on there. What names are ok? Cherokee is their ethnicity, but not their culture, African is not their culture, Mayan, some aspects trickle down due to my husband living for 10 years in Central American, but again not their culture.

The names that are your southern culture are American to you, but not to me. The names from my Bay Area, CA culture are American to me, but not to you.

If naming your child for a culture that is not yours is not appropriate, then which of (My ancestry just on *my* side of the family includes the following: German, English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish, French, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Arabic, and Cherokee, among others.) those should you choose? Those are all your culture or your ancestry?

Picking an Arabic name that you like might honor your ancestry but what does it have to do with your southern personality? Growing flowers and drinking mint julips?

If naming your child Khamair or Sharai means something to a blond haired blue eyed person how is that inappropriate? If they like the name how is that disrespectful or not ok?

There's nothing wrong with naming your child something that honors part of your culture, but just because it's your ancestry doesn't make it your culture. And just because it's not part of your ancestry doesn't mean it's not part of your culture.

My culture includes the Black Panthers but I don't look like that's my ancestry. Which do I choose, blood or experience?

And how do you know/judge my experience by looking at my hair/eye color?

The names can also be respectfully chosen, without fully understanding the meaning and history.

One might also choose to concentrate only on part of the history of the name, or the translation/spelling of one particular language, there are so many possibilities, that you dismissed in your OP.

You mentioned race, religion, culture, appearance, ethnicity- you would not possibly know all of those factors based on a name, would you? It probably took some time and effort to research your own, and you most likely do not know all of it anyway.

And if you believe in power of the name, you might choose to believe that in some way a name chose that baby for some reason, unknown to the "ignorant" parents.

The names can also be respectfully chosen, without fully understanding the meaning and history.

One might also choose to concentrate only on part of the history of the name, or the translation/spelling of one particular language, there are so many possibilities, that you dismissed in your OP.

You mentioned race, religion, culture, appearance, ethnicity- you would not possibly know all of those factors based on a name, would you? It probably took some time and effort to research your own, and you most likely do not know all of it anyway.

And if you believe in power of the name, you might choose to believe that in some way a name chose that baby for some reason, unknown to the "ignorant" parents.

That's just it, though. I have a southern culture and a multi-ethnic heritage. (Granted, it's mostly Western European, and my appearance reflects that.) I have those ethnicities and knowledge of those cultures (and those cultures led to me and mine existing in the first place), so giving those names is reflective of those roots.

I think that when you really get into regional cultures, (like your California culture versus my southern culture) that's when you find minute differences that are indistinguishable to outsiders, but are very important to us.

Of course, my son has an English name. He has an English last name. The baby that I'm carrying will be given family names. He'll be named for my husband's maternal grandfather and my husband.

But, then again, I'm also terribly conservative about some things and really love the continuity of tradition and heritage. (And I'm an amateur genealogist. That probably makes it even worse.)

That's just it, though. I have a southern culture and a multi-ethnic heritage. (Granted, it's mostly Western European, and my appearance reflects that.) I have those ethnicities and knowledge of those cultures (and those cultures led to me and mine existing in the first place), so giving those names is reflective of those roots.

I think that when you really get into regional cultures, (like your California culture versus my southern culture) that's when you find minute differences that are indistinguishable to outsiders, but are very important to us.

Of course, my son has an English name. He has an English last name. The baby that I'm carrying will be given family names. He'll be named for my husband's maternal grandfather and my husband.

But, then again, I'm also terribly conservative about some things and really love the continuity of tradition and heritage. (And I'm an amateur genealogist. That probably makes it even worse.)

Nope, I'd never wish someone *couldn't*. I support freedom, but freedom comes with responsibilities.

A lot of things that people have opinions about are not their business. It's not any of our business if someone is obese and pregnant, but there were still opinions passed on that. It's not our business if Jon of Jon and Kate fame keeps every hooker in PA in heels, but people have opinions avbout that.

This is no different.

Nope, I'd never wish someone *couldn't*. I support freedom, but freedom comes with responsibilities.

A lot of things that people have opinions about are not their business. It's not any of our business if someone is obese and pregnant, but there were still opinions passed on that. It's not our business if Jon of Jon and Kate fame keeps every hooker in PA in heels, but people have opinions avbout that.

Speaking of girl/boy names, I was looking through the baby name book (after we already had our baby lol) and came across a really beautiful Japanese name for a girl. My husband loves the Japanese culture, which I suppose stems from him living in Hawaii as a child. Turned out one of his good friends had that name but he was a boy, even though the name was for a girl. I see that happening a lot more now, switching boy and girl names. That doesn't really bother me either though.

I'm scared to look at the bad name website.

Speaking of girl/boy names, I was looking through the baby name book (after we already had our baby lol) and came across a really beautiful Japanese name for a girl. My husband loves the Japanese culture, which I suppose stems from him living in Hawaii as a child. Turned out one of his good friends had that name but he was a boy, even though the name was for a girl. I see that happening a lot more now, switching boy and girl names. That doesn't really bother me either though.

If you say people "shouldn't" name their kids something isn't that a way of saying you wish they "couldn't" but you have no control over it? If you preferred not to named your own children outside of your culture that would be different, but you're judging other people for their choice to do so and implying that its disrespectful. So you might not say "You can't do that" but you're wagging a finger at everyone who does and its really not your business.

If you say people "shouldn't" name their kids something isn't that a way of saying you wish they "couldn't" but you have no control over it? If you preferred not to named your own children outside of your culture that would be different, but you're judging other people for their choice to do so and implying that its disrespectful. So you might not say "You can't do that" but you're wagging a finger at everyone who does and its really not your business.

"I'm also terribly conservative about some things and really love the continuity of tradition and heritage. (And I'm an amateur genealogist. That probably makes it even worse.)"

As am I. I prefer to refer to myself as a progressive traditionalist. I too have delved into my family history.

While your multiple ethnicities have led to your existence, how much of those cultures, histories are you? My ancestors led to my existence, but frankly, I have no connection to the Scottish clans, I have no belief in the Gods of the Cherokee, I've never felt any affection with the Monarchy. None of those are me. They led to my family and me being here, but those aspects of my culture are non-existent.

I don't think that had I picked a Scottish name, or Cherokee name for my daughter it would have had any meaning. It wouldn't have meant anymore to me than had I picked a name out of a hat.

I named my kids after family, because those people meant something to me. However, had I named my daughter Miriam after a friend who is Jewish, it would have meant more to me than had I named her SeÃ rlaid (a Scottish/Gaelic name)just because that was my ethnic background.

I'm wondering maybe we have two different definitions of culture.

"I'm also terribly conservative about some things and really love the continuity of tradition and heritage. (And I'm an amateur genealogist. That probably makes it even worse.)"

As am I. I prefer to refer to myself as a progressive traditionalist. I too have delved into my family history.

While your multiple ethnicities have led to your existence, how much of those cultures, histories are you? My ancestors led to my existence, but frankly, I have no connection to the Scottish clans, I have no belief in the Gods of the Cherokee, I've never felt any affection with the Monarchy. None of those are me. They led to my family and me being here, but those aspects of my culture are non-existent.

I don't think that had I picked a Scottish name, or Cherokee name for my daughter it would have had any meaning. It wouldn't have meant anymore to me than had I picked a name out of a hat.

I named my kids after family, because those people meant something to me. However, had I named my daughter Miriam after a friend who is Jewish, it would have meant more to me than had I named her SeÃ rlaid (a Scottish/Gaelic name)just because that was my ethnic background.

"And if you believe in power of the name, you might choose to believe that in some way a name chose that baby for some reason, unknown to the "ignorant" parents."

I chose my 3YO's name without knowing the meaning of it. Her name is Morgan Lynn. Morgan because I have always loved it, Lynn because my mom's middle name is Lynn. I thought it sounded good together and it was in a way honoring my mom. After she was born I was looking up meanings for her name. Turns out Morgan means sea and Lynn means waterfall. She is also a pisces, the fish. I didn't mean to, it just happened that way.

"And if you believe in power of the name, you might choose to believe that in some way a name chose that baby for some reason, unknown to the "ignorant" parents."

I chose my 3YO's name without knowing the meaning of it. Her name is Morgan Lynn. Morgan because I have always loved it, Lynn because my mom's middle name is Lynn. I thought it sounded good together and it was in a way honoring my mom. After she was born I was looking up meanings for her name. Turns out Morgan means sea and Lynn means waterfall. She is also a pisces, the fish. I didn't mean to, it just happened that way.

I do find this idea interesting and just wanted to share my nieces story. My mother is half Spanish and my sisters partner is half Spanish. When my sister was having her daughter they were deciding on names. Since she is not married to her partner they included discussing what last name their daughter would have. With such a heavy Spanish heritage they initially decided to name her after the grandmothers and give my niece her father's last name. This would have named her Carla Isabella Rodriguez. After my niece was born they took one look at her and realized she was going to look like my sister, very pale complextion, curly blond hair (until she gets older) and blue eyes. They changed their mind and decided a heavy Spanish name was not "appropriate" for her.

Now I have picked my children's names for various reasons and none of them are family names, but I have used fairly traditional spellings for all four of them. I did use some Scottish names because of my interest in my Scottish heritage (I can trace my lineage back to at least 4 different Scottish clans some highland and some lowland).

Laura

Laura

I personally like slightly unusual names for my children.

I do find this idea interesting and just wanted to share my nieces story. My mother is half Spanish and my sisters partner is half Spanish. When my sister was having her daughter they were deciding on names. Since she is not married to her partner they included discussing what last name their daughter would have. With such a heavy Spanish heritage they initially decided to name her after the grandmothers and give my niece her father's last name. This would have named her Carla Isabella Rodriguez. After my niece was born they took one look at her and realized she was going to look like my sister, very pale complextion, curly blond hair (until she gets older) and blue eyes. They changed their mind and decided a heavy Spanish name was not "appropriate" for her.

Now I have picked my children's names for various reasons and none of them are family names, but I have used fairly traditional spellings for all four of them. I did use some Scottish names because of my interest in my Scottish heritage (I can trace my lineage back to at least 4 different Scottish clans some highland and some lowland).

"How about "Tallulah Wants to Hula In Hawaii"? :-P Yeah, some Australian parents named their kid that"

Not to knitpick but they were from New Zeland, very different from Australian. Also this name I don't think is a good example of co-opting another culture. Tallulah is Native American, the Hula is Hawaiian, they don't really have anything to do with one another. I don't think this falls into the same catagory as what we've been discussing. I think naming your child Mexican child Chantal, or your African child Kierstan or your Chinese child John would amount to the same thing as what these parents did.

If you had a girl you would have named her Eleanor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine after someone from the 1200's, frankly, I don't view someone who lived that long ago as your culture. I can understand that there is meaning to that name for you. But as for your culture? Nope, don't see it.

"Likewise, I wouldn't choose an Arabic name because I feel no connection with anything going that far back."

How far back is the Arabic? If you thought of naming your child after someon from the 1200's and the Arabic is too far back that's really far back.

" think it's a matter of what's your cultural and ethnic heritage, and how is this relevent to you?"

See here is where we digress. I think that cultural and ethnic heritage are not the same thing. If an asian child is adopted by white parents what is their culture? Their ethnic heritage and their culture are at odds, which do they choose? For that matter, many Asian families choose to name their children "American" names so they fit in. Is this as bad? Are they taking from another culture?

Now I know many people who are not amature geneologist who don't know their family history. A few friends don't know their grandparents, or great-grandparents. They have no connection to their ancestry, or their ethnic background. So they are 1/2 black (American black) and 1/2 Italian. They have absolutely no connection, no feeling, no knowledge of their Italian heratige. Their culture, what they were raised was American black/African American. What names do they get to pick from?

What I've been trying to get at is that culture is not your ancestry, or not completely. Ancestry plays a part. However, my ancestry is all over the place. But my culture is American. It's not an ethinicity, it's a plethera of them. My name is Spanish/Mexican, Elisa. It in no way plays into my genetic history. But what I grew up with, in California, in a bilingual church, with spanish speaking, White/Native parents, with pickers, illegals, etc. it's my culture. Growing up in the Bay Area, a place that is more diverse than probably any other in the world, I grew up with Japanese, Chinese, East Indian, Mexican, Belizean, Nigerian, South African, Algerian, etc. to the nth degree. I grew up with all of these influences, all of these foods, religions, languages playing to me. It was a symphony of culture which is mine? American? That to me is all of the above. All have played a part in me being who I am, how my family came to be. But very few of them are my genetic background.

"How about "Tallulah Wants to Hula In Hawaii"? :-P Yeah, some Australian parents named their kid that"

Not to knitpick but they were from New Zeland, very different from Australian. Also this name I don't think is a good example of co-opting another culture. Tallulah is Native American, the Hula is Hawaiian, they don't really have anything to do with one another. I don't think this falls into the same catagory as what we've been discussing. I think naming your child Mexican child Chantal, or your African child Kierstan or your Chinese child John would amount to the same thing as what these parents did.

If you had a girl you would have named her Eleanor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine after someone from the 1200's, frankly, I don't view someone who lived that long ago as your culture. I can understand that there is meaning to that name for you. But as for your culture? Nope, don't see it.

"Likewise, I wouldn't choose an Arabic name because I feel no connection with anything going that far back."

How far back is the Arabic? If you thought of naming your child after someon from the 1200's and the Arabic is too far back that's really far back.

" think it's a matter of what's your cultural and ethnic heritage, and how is this relevent to you?"

See here is where we digress. I think that cultural and ethnic heritage are not the same thing. If an asian child is adopted by white parents what is their culture? Their ethnic heritage and their culture are at odds, which do they choose? For that matter, many Asian families choose to name their children "American" names so they fit in. Is this as bad? Are they taking from another culture?

Now I know many people who are not amature geneologist who don't know their family history. A few friends don't know their grandparents, or great-grandparents. They have no connection to their ancestry, or their ethnic background. So they are 1/2 black (American black) and 1/2 Italian. They have absolutely no connection, no feeling, no knowledge of their Italian heratige. Their culture, what they were raised was American black/African American. What names do they get to pick from?

What I've been trying to get at is that culture is not your ancestry, or not completely. Ancestry plays a part. However, my ancestry is all over the place. But my culture is American. It's not an ethinicity, it's a plethera of them. My name is Spanish/Mexican, Elisa. It in no way plays into my genetic history. But what I grew up with, in California, in a bilingual church, with spanish speaking, White/Native parents, with pickers, illegals, etc. it's my culture. Growing up in the Bay Area, a place that is more diverse than probably any other in the world, I grew up with Japanese, Chinese, East Indian, Mexican, Belizean, Nigerian, South African, Algerian, etc. to the nth degree. I grew up with all of these influences, all of these foods, religions, languages playing to me. It was a symphony of culture which is mine? American? That to me is all of the above. All have played a part in me being who I am, how my family came to be. But very few of them are my genetic background.

Im a non-religious white person who named my half Black son a Hebrew name just because I liked it -both first and middle. His middle name is after his Black, Baptist 2nd cousin whose mom obviously didn't care much about it being Hebrew either.

I don't agree with half-assedly adopting the parts of a culture that you think are cool when you know nothing else about that culture; but I also don't agree that the different cultures and/or ethnicities should have to stick to their own baby names. I think the two issues are separate.

Im a non-religious white person who named my half Black son a Hebrew name just because I liked it -both first and middle. His middle name is after his Black, Baptist 2nd cousin whose mom obviously didn't care much about it being Hebrew either.

I don't agree with half-assedly adopting the parts of a culture that you think are cool when you know nothing else about that culture; but I also don't agree that the different cultures and/or ethnicities should have to stick to their own baby names. I think the two issues are separate.

"Look, there's no debating that the holy book of the majority should
dictate all the secular laws for everyone else. That's just common sense
until your side isn't winning. The Bible states in Genesis that
marriage is between a man and his mutated rib, which is as painful as it
sounds, but at least the Constitution allows it".

I would not argue that bad names happen : ) Sometimes I truly feel sorry for a child. What I could not agree with is basically calling parents ignorant and disrespectful, because you don't agree, or don't understand their name choice.

I would not argue that bad names happen : ) Sometimes I truly feel sorry for a child. What I could not agree with is basically calling parents ignorant and disrespectful, because you don't agree, or don't understand their name choice.

"Kind of like people who think that they know so much about Japanese culture because they like anime."I know what you mean! I like anime but I've also studied Japanese for 3 years and it irks me when people think they know Japanese because they know that Sakura means cherry blossom. Seriously? What I don't understand also is people who get Japanese kanji tattooed on themselves because it looks "cool", and know nothing about Japan culture or Japanese. How do you know for sure what it says when you have never studied the language?

"Kind of like people who think that they know so much about Japanese culture because they like anime."I know what you mean! I like anime but I've also studied Japanese for 3 years and it irks me when people think they know Japanese because they know that Sakura means cherry blossom. Seriously? What I don't understand also is people who get Japanese kanji tattooed on themselves because it looks "cool", and know nothing about Japan culture or Japanese. How do you know for sure what it says when you have never studied the language?

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