Oxymandias wrote:1. How the fuck am I supposed to do that? I have no control over anything politically. I don't rule over Iran and even if I was president I still wouldn't have control over Iran. You don't have control over your own country either since your idea of "isolation" is completely ignorant of just simple politics of the US and the world.

Hmmm...well that's fairly "defeatist". Gee, do all Iranians just roll-over?

Oxymandias wrote:2. But would I support it? Of course I would. I don't see any harm in refugees. the Middle East already accepts thousands of refugees from Syria, Iraq, and Palestine. Just because the country does it doesn't mean I completely support the country.

I'm not even sure what you mean here?

Oxymandias wrote:3. Ok so? Ultra-nationalism is the thing that killed the Middle East i.e. the Abbasid Caliphate and was the thing that lead to the anti-intellectualism you see today. Ghazi was actually a nationalist and wanted Middle Eastern philosophy to be based on an Islamic framework rather than a filthy savage framework which he continues to undermine continuously throughout his work similar to how you continue to undermine the Abbasid Golden Age and it's contributions.

Again...don't know what you're talking about...don't really care...

Oxymandias wrote:4. You sound like a spoiled kid who screams to everyone on the playground that if they don't give him something or don't do something for him, he'll tell his "uber rich parents" when in actuality the parents don't give two fucks about the spoiled kid. America is a country full of diverse people and it's leaders aren't stupid enough to execute that fantasy of yours. You don't have some powerful army behind you that you can control at a whim. You have absolutely no political power at all and even if it did get traction a leader who tried to go about your proposal would be committing national suicide. It would cost so much resources and not big enough of a benefit. Alright you isolated the Middle East. All you did is basically protect the Middle East from any foreign powers and let it develop by itself. And what do you get in return? Protection from an organization (ISIS) that doesn't even have that much power to begin with.

Actually I'm originally an Alberta farmboy who started with absolutely nothin', and through effort and some luck, made enough wealth that I can indulge my own spawn. My life has taught me one thing above all...NOTHING is impossible, if you're willing to put your mind to it and work hard. And yes...I do know how cliche that sounds. But it happens to be true.War happens to create wealth actually. And the siege Ive been advocating, would also probably be good for the economy. And now it's time for me to ask you to stop being naive.It's not just ISIS and we all know it.

Oxymandias wrote:5. I don't have the power to do that. Stop talking to me, talk to the government. WTF am I supposed to do?

Roll-over I guess...

Oxymandias wrote:6. Are you implying that he agrees with extremist religious movements like ISIS? WTF is wrong with you? If you can say that to him because he's Lebanese, I can say that you support the KKK because you are white. Remember, not all white people are KKK but all of the KKK is white.

Try reading my post again. And we'll just excuse your English skills on this one...k?

Oxymandias wrote:7. Oh really? And what is your proposal? A political wet dream with no regard towards the general population. The West would collapse immediately if you did that since it cost so much resources, so much taxes, so much money, and so many lives that it's not even worth it. By the end of the isolation process the people would lose faith in the government, a government more concerned with the Middle East and less with the people it rules over.

Oh I think we can afford it. And if this progression continues...we'll HAVE to afford it.That'll make the Rothchilds and their buddies love us all again.

Just a passing thought, but an interesting one you might wanna ponder.Do you REALLY think its a good idea to fuck with the German people?

Ok then, give me something I can do to stop extremist religious movements.

You said that if the Middle East were as powerful as the West, they too wouldn't accept migration. I countered this by saying I would accept migration and I gave my reasons for such support.

I was referring to your "France almost elected an ultra-nationalist president" statement. My response is that I don't give a shit.

It's an analogy. I am saying you are acting as of right now like a spoiled kid who thinks his parents will do whatever he wants him to do mirroring your fantasy that the West will completely agree with you in every way and follow on your plan at a mere wim.

I've been rolling over for ages.

The only "bad English" in that quote is the last sentence which I had trouble with make it mirror your statement that "not terrorists are Muslim but all Muslims are terrorists". You said that he thought religious movements were just. Nowhere in his previous posts did he even suggest that.

Tell me then, do you have an concrete plans for this? You can't be so sure. Just because to you the West seems very rich doesn't mean that it can afford 5 trillion dollars for 100 generations. Isolation requires continuous intervention. You don't just make a country isolationist and be done with it. You have no concrete plans. You didn't take into account logistics, resources, money, time, occupation, and infastructure. And you don't make it up as you go along. If you do that you're going to end up with more resources wasted as you realize that your approach was wrong.

I'm not fucking with anyone in Europe. Iran isn't even fucking with anyone Europe. No Middle Eastern country at all has even touched Europe. ISIS is just a very weak organization and Obama and Bush admitted this.

I can't give you courage. it's something we spoiled brats are just born with.However, as I understand it, the last time Iran had an election, the religious nuts who run your country, had to squelch a candidate who opposed the current state of things there, as he was getting way too popular. Keep at it. Never give up. Have hope, and have courage.

Oxymandias wrote:You said that if the Middle East were as powerful as the West, they too wouldn't accept migration. I countered this by saying I would accept migration and I gave my reasons for such support.

No I was speaking of the whole sad tragedy. That our leaders...and by extension "we"...took advantage of the Middle East in every possible way. Had the leaders of the Middle East had the wealth and means to do such things to us, they would have. Just look at the horseshit the Saudis are capable of.

Oxymandias wrote:I was referring to your "France almost elected an ultra-nationalist president" statement. My response is that I don't give a shit.

Oh...

Oxymandias wrote:It's an analogy. I am saying you are acting as of right now like a spoiled kid who thinks his parents will do whatever he wants him to do mirroring your fantasy that the West will completely agree with you in every way and follow on your plan at a mere wim.

That's not because I'm spoiled. It's because I'm fuckin' angry.Ya know...I know you probably feel like I'm some sort of war-mongering typical red-neck Yankee mother-fucker who likes to shoot off his mouth and his guns. I assure you that, although I am stubborn and opinionated, I am also awake. I am not adverse to listening to differing opinions, nor am I adverse to admitting when I'm wrong. I'm just not wrong very often... But I would ask you, for a moment, to read "between the lines" of my postings. Now ask yourself, do you think that maybe the number of people here that are slowly adopting ideas such as mine, is likely increasing right about now?I don't wanna see this get outta hand any more than you do.But it is gonna get there if this crap doesn't stop. It's not fair, by any means. But it is what it is...and level heads in the Arab world really need to find a way to take hold of the reigns and halt this path our 2 worlds are on, before we all suffer the consequences. I don't know if you've noticed, but there's allot of sentiment very similar to mine, here in this political forum. If we equate that even loosely with the general population...what do you think is brewing?

Oxymandias wrote:I've been rolling over for ages.

I can never completely comprehend your position, as I've not grown up in Iran.I don't know what it's like to live in fear of my own government. But when I do get scared, it makes me angry, and stubborn, and I tend to act.

Oxymandias wrote:The only "bad English" in that quote is the last sentence which I had trouble with make it mirror your statement that "not terrorists are Muslim but all Muslims are terrorists". You said that he thought religious movements were just. Nowhere in his previous posts did he even suggest that.

Yes I'm not the world's greatest typist. C'est la vie...But what you missed was the meaning of my statement. I suspect he's not an advocate for terrorism.

Oxymandias wrote:Tell me then, do you have an concrete plans for this? You can't be so sure. Just because to you the West seems very rich doesn't mean that it can afford 5 trillion dollars for 100 generations. Isolation requires continuous intervention. You don't just make a country isolationist and be done with it. You have no concrete plans. You didn't take into account logistics, resources, money, time, occupation, and infastructure. And you don't make it up as you go along. If you do that you're going to end up with more resources wasted as you realize that your approach was wrong.

Yes you are correct. It would cost big time.however I'm not thinking of any sort of "occupation". In fact, once the people under siege acquiesce, we would have to take an active roll in building the area back up and then some. To create a new society that is stable and safe for all. Allow the Arab people the freedom to be democratic or not, but make sure all are fed, and have a good education, healthcare, jobs, etc. Stable.

For the most part, the Middle East was stable...but then Bush and the neo-cons happened. And none of us can apologize enough for that travesty.

Oxymandias wrote:I'm not fucking with anyone in Europe. Iran isn't even fucking with anyone Europe. No Middle Eastern country at all has even touched Europe. ISIS is just a very weak organization and Obama and Bush admitted this.

I didn't mean YOU in particular. And again...let's not be naive. ISIS is not the only source of issues. It's just the most visible right now. Never forget...when the governments and media are pointing your attention to a single place, you can bet your last dollar...or whatever currency Iran has...that the real place you need to be watchin' is somewhere else completely. Don't watch the hand they waive...watch the one behind their backs.

What am I supposed to do, vote harder? I already voted for Rouhani. What else am I supposed to do. We have an equal amount of courage. The only difference is that you can freely act upon that courage while we can't. We already fight the government in our own ways such as breaking many of the social rules of the government secretly. There's nothing we can do in terms of political power.

You mean colonization? Maybe. There may be too much of a stigma against it. However if you isolate the Middle East and erase all mentions of colonization, Middle East would colonize Europe.

The reason I believe that is because of your ridiculous fantasies and your ability to make racist statements to anyone you disagree with at the switch of a button. Also anger makes you into a war-mongering idiot. I see this everywhere around me.

No, because people who even think of such of an idea understand that it's impossible and would only create higher taxes for everyone in the West. You would end up like the Middle East and end up having to take care of it making it's living standards higher while making yours lower. The only people on PoFo who agree with you is Zionist Nationalist, Hindsite, and Albert. One is an conservative nationalist and the two others are religious fanatics. Unless you publicly ask people if they would support such a proposal and everyone agrees will your words hold any weight.

You have two options: fight against the government secretly or get sent to jail and be tortured. However if your natively born in Iran the latter wouldn't happen that much. The police there are very understanding, more understanding than the police in the US will ever be.

You said that regardless of whether or not he thinks these movements, obviously meaning religious extremist movements, are just, the West will somehow decide to go to the lengths to isolate the Middle East. Also even if this was not the case nothing you wrote implied that you knew he didn't support those movements (which he blatantly doesn't).

So you are taking care of an entire civilization and build it up again, which is going to cost alot of money and very expensive taxes, while not taking care of your own countries? That's stupid. You are essentially creating another Europe and I mean 17th Europe. You're making a region more powerful than the West and basically encouraging them to colonize and conquer or at least play geopolitics. Let me explain to you everything that the West loses from this plan:

West:

1. Every expensive taxes

2. Bad/mediocre infastructure because the West is more concerned with building up the Middle East

3. All good administrators are in the Middle East because the Middle East absolutely needs it while the West gets bad administrators

4. All of the West's resources both natural and human are drained since A. the Middle East is a desert and needs lots of natural resources and B. it needs good human resources to educate the populous, scientists to solve the problems of the Middle East and build up an academic culture, and doctors to heal the wounds of Middle Easterners while the West gets sub-par education, the academic culture is nonexistent, and healthcare is also sub-par.

5. Most of the world's elite armed forces would be in the Middle East trying to keep order. Eventually as time passes (since the Middle East needs alot of time to become stable) these occupying forces become the Middle East's official army. While the West has a sub-par army compared to the Middle East's.

Fantastic. You have made the Middle East into a superpower. And not only that, but since their isolated colonization would be anew thing to them and they would view anyone who isn't in their culture as a savage. Just like when Europe was isolated. Congratulations.

So the US, Russia, and China are all controlling the Iranian government? Illuminate?

Buzz62 wrote:Try to understand...I'm a father of 3 kids about the same age as those who got blown to bits in Manchester.As far as I'm concerned, the "kid-gloves" have been removed.I lost all sympathy that day.

And are you under the mistaken impression that kids in Canada are under some sort of significant threat?

EDIT: We've known what ugly pricks most of our leaders are, for decades. Unfortunately for you and yours, the Islamist Nutcase Network got a British Arab convinced he should blow up kids in England. The sheer anger and outrage resulting from this is both palpable here, and most likely orchestrated. Ya...we know these things. I know these things. But as I said...it's now too late.

Oxymandias wrote:What am I supposed to do, vote harder? I already voted for Rouhani. What else am I supposed to do. We have an equal amount of courage. The only difference is that you can freely act upon that courage while we can't. We already fight the government in our own ways such as breaking many of the social rules of the government secretly. There's nothing we can do in terms of political power.

My advise would be keep at it. There's no "quick fix" here. But if you keep at it, your kids will benefit.

Oxymandias wrote:You mean colonization? Maybe. There may be too much of a stigma against it. However if you isolate the Middle East and erase all mentions of colonization, Middle East would colonize Europe.

Not colonization. Instead...we BUY IT! Pour trillions into the Middle East. Make everyone comfy-cozy. The caveat being, we all would have to guard against lunatics like the Saudis coming to power. If that can be accomplished, "Allah" would become less important, and whether to have a Kabob or some goat for dinner, will be the main concern for the day. You'll be able to get a McKabob I bet.

Oxymandias wrote:The reason I believe that is because of your ridiculous fantasies and your ability to make racist statements to anyone you disagree with at the switch of a button. Also anger makes you into a war-mongering idiot. I see this everywhere around me.

You see it more and more frequently too.Beware of war-mongering idiots with big guns.

Oxymandias wrote:No, because people who even think of such of an idea understand that it's impossible and would only create higher taxes for everyone in the West. You would end up like the Middle East and end up having to take care of it making it's living standards higher while making yours lower. The only people on PoFo who agree with you is Zionist Nationalist, Hindsite, and Albert. One is an conservative nationalist and the two others are religious fanatics. Unless you publicly ask people if they would support such a proposal and everyone agrees will your words hold any weight.

Remind me again how many angry religious people there are in the Middle East?Ya...I think we can find a way to make it all happen. It's a matter of saving our own cultures and societies. I doubt cost is an obstacle we can't find a way to over come.

Oxymandias wrote:You have two options: fight against the government secretly or get sent to jail and be tortured. However if your natively born in Iran the latter wouldn't happen that much. The police there are very understanding, more understanding than the police in the US will ever be.

Well Rodney King will be happy to hear that.

Oxymandias wrote:You said that regardless of whether or not he thinks these movements, obviously meaning religious extremist movements, are just, the West will somehow decide to go to the lengths to isolate the Middle East. Also even if this was not the case nothing you wrote implied that you knew he didn't support those movements (which he blatantly doesn't).

Not sure I ever said he did.

I don't agree with your conclusions. It's a necessity so the funds will be there. Remember...for the most part...we print the funds at will.And no...we do not turn the Middle East into a superpower.Savages? You're thinking of today's mindset.Tell me...do you think your kids will think we're "savages" while they skateboard down to the local Dairy Queen for a Blizzard?It's hard to maintain hatred when you see your kids outside laughing and playing football without a care in the world. And from where I sit, we can't really afford to not do something like this.

"Allah" needs to be put in its place. Only peace and comfort can do that.

Keep at what? Voting? Breaking government rules? We were doing this for decades now.

That'll cost lots of tax dollars for Westerners. Furthermore how can you be so sure that this money will go to the people? How would you know that Russia and China would really give money and instead just claim that they're giving money when in reality they're not? The Marshall Plan worked because all Europe needed was money. Europe had the human resources, organization, and institutions to rebuild themselves. You can't do that in the Middle East. The only places that would benefit from this is Iran, Jordan, and Turkey since even though they aren't the greatest places on earth, at least they have the institutions necessary to function. Saudi Arabia has institutions but they're from the stone age and are irrelevant in the modern world so they need a complete overhaul and don't even get me started on Iraq and Syria.

That only proves my point. All your doing is creating rich religious fanatics, you're not removing them. Also that's irrelevant given that it only shows that you can't refute my point. It doesn't change the fact that only conservatives and religious fanatics agree with you and I don't think they even agree with most of it. I think they just like the "isolate the Middle East!" part, not the "pour trillions into the Middle East!" part. To them the Middle East deserves to suffer or die for whatever reason. Either because they're Zionist or because they're fanatic Christians who think Israel is the holy nation that God himself put on Earth and that Islam is a pagan religion.

Well I mean the morality police. Not the actual police. The morality police is just a bunch of women in hijabs that walk around and tell you what you should do. At this point they're just another mother that continuously bickers and bickers.

Then you need to keep printing funds. In order for the Middle East to be stable you need it to be self-sufficient. Currently the Middle East does not have the institutions necessary to achieve self-sufficiency therefore you need to import tons of human resources to help them create those institutions such as education, infastructure, tax collection, trading, currency issuing, etc. You cannot just throw money at it and expect it to suddenly turn into a first-world paradise. You want to unite the Middle East under US occupation then afterward release the Middle East. Do you seriously think that the Middle East is suddenly going to stop being united?

Um, the Middle East is isolated from everything else. They do not know what a "skateboard" is and they do not know what "Europe" is. To them, the Middle East is the entire world. And even if you "Americanize" the Middle East, eventually after decades of isolation it will develop into it's own distinct, alien culture.

@Buzz62 I don't believe the Middle East needs Westernized, but to do so could best be accomplished by building a few small Western cities populated by Westerners. They would serve as hubs for gradual expansion of modernization in the indigenous areas. It would be a very slow process, but the only one with a chance of success.

I dream of the United Citystates of Earth, where each Citystate has a standardized border such as one whole degree of Latitude by one whole degree of Longitude.

Oxymandias wrote:Keep at what? Voting? Breaking government rules? We were doing this for decades now.

Ya I know. You had a semi-westerized leader and government, but ousted them for this...this...religious fervor. OUCH!Please try to do better next time. And yes, keep at it. It takes generations. Teach and enlighten your kids. Its the best thing to do.

Oxymandias wrote:That'll cost lots of tax dollars for Westerners. Furthermore how can you be so sure that this money will go to the people? How would you know that Russia and China would really give money and instead just claim that they're giving money when in reality they're not? The Marshall Plan worked because all Europe needed was money. Europe had the human resources, organization, and institutions to rebuild themselves. You can't do that in the Middle East. The only places that would benefit from this is Iran, Jordan, and Turkey since even though they aren't the greatest places on earth, at least they have the institutions necessary to function. Saudi Arabia has institutions but they're from the stone age and are irrelevant in the modern world so they need a complete overhaul and don't even get me started on Iraq and Syria.

Saudi Arabia is my deepest concern. But the Gawd-Damned Yankees keep fuckin' handing 'em all that hardware! Dopes...And I still disagree. You CAN do it! WE can help. But you (not directly you but...you know what I mean) have got to stop this urban warfare. It's awakening fuckin' unholy ideas here. I mean really...have you SEEN what Donny's up to today? The guy's chaotic as hell.

It can work because, as we all know, over the last 40-some-odd years, the middle class here has been raped and pillaged, in order to continuously make financial gains on a quarterly basis.GREED was most definitely not "good". However one result is that 1% of the world's population, owns 99% of all the wealth. I think it's about time they gave some of that back...don't you?

Oxymandias wrote:That only proves my point. All your doing is creating rich religious fanatics, you're not removing them. Also that's irrelevant given that it only shows that you can't refute my point. It doesn't change the fact that only conservatives and religious fanatics agree with you and I don't think they even agree with most of it. I think they just like the "isolate the Middle East!" part, not the "pour trillions into the Middle East!" part. To them the Middle East deserves to suffer or die for whatever reason. Either because they're Zionist or because they're fanatic Christians who think Israel is the holy nation that God himself put on Earth and that Islam is a pagan religion.

Ya well...you just let us deal with the Christians and the Jews.

Oxymandias wrote:Well I mean the morality police. Not the actual police. The morality police is just a bunch of women in hijabs that walk around and tell you what you should do. At this point they're just another mother that continuously bickers and bickers.

Hijabs will disappear. And its really sad that this mother isn't wise enough to see that.But hey...the value of Gawds...right?

Oxymandias wrote:Then you need to keep printing funds. In order for the Middle East to be stable you need it to be self-sufficient. Currently the Middle East does not have the institutions necessary to achieve self-sufficiency therefore you need to import tons of human resources to help them create those institutions such as education, infastructure, tax collection, trading, currency issuing, etc. You cannot just throw money at it and expect it to suddenly turn into a first-world paradise. You want to unite the Middle East under US occupation then afterward release the Middle East. Do you seriously think that the Middle East is suddenly going to stop being united?

Yes it's a big project. And I actually hope the entire Middle East does unite at some point.That would likely solve allot of problems.

Oxymandias wrote:Um, the Middle East is isolated from everything else. They do not know what a "skateboard" is and they do not know what "Europe" is. To them, the Middle East is the entire world. And even if you "Americanize" the Middle East, eventually after decades of isolation it will develop into it's own distinct, alien culture.

It will become...not isolated. And they will know what a skateboard is, and they will break their legs falling off them. I wouldn't want an "Americanized" anything. Hell 1 is enough.No the Arab people must be helped to create their own version of a developed nations/region.I mean really now...would you want a bloody McDonalds every quarter mile?

Actually it was overthrown by the US and Britain. Mohammad Mosaddegh was the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran and was overthrown in favor of Mohammed Reza Pahlavi. Public education is in the hands of the state. Don't just tell me to do something I can't do.

Iran isn't in any war with anyone and Iran, Turkey, and Egypt aren't ISIS. Try getting the one percent to hand over cash. Rich people, either directly or indirectly and either consciously or unconsciously. The last thing you want to do is make them aware of their power. I don't know who's Donny.

But then you would have to make it into a democracy and you would have to make it a western ally. Therefore, it would have to be Islamist. Every single secular ideology and party in the Middle East is focused on economic independence and does not view the West favorably. Furthermore it would end up becoming a superpower by default given that you are uniting several countries that alone have a small amount of influence but together has an extremely large amount of influence. Especially when it enters it's defacto "Golden Age" that pretty much every other developing country goes through (Japan, China, France, Britain, Germany, America had 3, etc.) and especially if it reaches Japan levels of economic success (During the Japanese Economic Miracle, Japan's GDP was as high as America's and Britain's, the two largest GDPs at the time).

Depending on what the united Middle East looks like, it could either solve everything or make everything worse.

You want to isolate the Middle East so you can change and develop it easily without any outside interference.

So you want to create a sort of Asia in the Middle East except united. I understand that and I support it however it's implausible.

skinster wrote:There is no way around that. From my own experience, being raised by Muslims, my mum wore/wears a headscarf, but it was never something my parents imposed on us (probably because we wouldn't listen anyway ). In my twin's early twenties when she was into god, she chose to wear a headscarf. She doesn't now because she turned into an atheist a few years ago, but that's by the by.

I agree for passport/driver's licences and airport-crap it should be removed. But overall I don't think men should spend a lot of time worrying about what women wear. Focus on your own shit, like growing beards, all of you, if you don't do that then you're obviously backwards and need to die, or something.

Actually it was overthrown by the US and Britain. Mohammad Mosaddegh was the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran and was overthrown in favor of Mohammed Reza Pahlavi. Public education is in the hands of the state. Don't just tell me to do something I can't do.

Iran isn't in any war with anyone and Iran, Turkey, and Egypt aren't ISIS. Try getting the one percent to hand over cash. Rich people, either directly or indirectly and either consciously or unconsciously. The last thing you want to do is make them aware of their power. I don't know who's Donny.

But then you would have to make it into a democracy and you would have to make it a western ally. Therefore, it would have to be Islamist. Every single secular ideology and party in the Middle East is focused on economic independence and does not view the West favorably. Furthermore it would end up becoming a superpower by default given that you are uniting several countries that alone have a small amount of influence but together has an extremely large amount of influence. Especially when it enters it's defacto "Golden Age" that pretty much every other developing country goes through (Japan, China, France, Britain, Germany, America had 3, etc.) and especially if it reaches Japan levels of economic success (During the Japanese Economic Miracle, Japan's GDP was as high as America's and Britain's, the two largest GDPs at the time).

Depending on what the united Middle East looks like, it could either solve everything or make everything worse.

You want to isolate the Middle East so you can change and develop it easily without any outside interference.

So you want to create a sort of Asia in the Middle East except united. I understand that and I support it however it's implausible.

Donny-boy...The Donald...President Trump. You know...the 5:00am shithouse Twitter marauder... As for the 1% and their ultra-wealth...I wouldn't expect them to all offer up big fat chunks of their grossly bloated profits. No I expect we'll have to "expropriate" the funds by some measure of force.

Buzz62 wrote:I think that's semi-obvious...no? Maybe not in ridicule...maybe just in a state of heightened fear?

Yes, obviously he is so scared that even bus seats are now a threat to western civilisation.

POD nobody expects you to care a bit about the evil white guy.Which sort of casts a hint of irrelevance to your opinion in this case...don' it.

No, my opinion (that the feelings of a delusional bigot do not matter) is consistent with the fact that bus seats are not actually a threat to western civilisation despite the poor white guy's feelings about bus seats.

---------------

Suntzu wrote:Reciprocity with the Middle East, as many churches as mosques, as many bikinis as burkas.

So, you think the western world should look to the Middle East as a standard? Lol.