my earlier proposal for soldier class NPC rules

You never ruled on my proposal for the soldier class NPC to iron out the wrinkles in the rules that make it nearly impossible for non adventures to attain higher levels of skill

Soldier: npc class THACO AS PER WARRIOR chart ie. thaco and thac1 are both 20 at lev 0WEAPONS 2 1/5 positive levels, no specialization, few if any will ever make it to 5th level as a simple soldier. NPW/ 10 PTS TO START10/PTS PER LEVEL STARTIN LEV 1, 1 nwp/year of age beyond 18/ every body learns or refines skills during life even if they don't become better fighters. Learning new survival tricks, scraps of language from prisoners etc. These two nwp additions are not cumulative. example after 3 years should a soldier get a level, they get 10 nwp minus the 3 nwp previously received for age at which time the age counter starts fresh at 0

Should a common soldier have access to significant one on one tutoring they can gain 10xp per month for every level the teacher is superior to them. A better teacher makes for better students.

This allows any soldier to attain lev 1-1 from training and time served, lev 1 from time served and kills, but to go beyond 1 will take many years of service and or substantial battle experience that peace time soldiers would never see. Without combat, a 0 could take as much as 25 months to get to 1-1, all militia would likely stay at 0 due to lack of time served and chance of surviving battle with no training.

Without the real stress and experience of battle (or expensive tutors the average flunky could not afford) simple garrison duty in peace does not allow a soldier to achieve lev 1. A war time garrison would take another 25 months to go from 1-1 to 1. Within the 2 sub levels of experience any soldier who shows great initiative, uncommon luck or ability gets a save at 0 experience (not sure what the save should be yet) making this save lets the soldier become a warrior with the extra weapons selection/specialization and nwp points

For example our troops were supposedly trained before we hired them120 xpabout 9 in war zone (higher state of readiness, more drill, more tension and need to learn)2 of those months a real battle was fought at the walls.( 7 months x 20 xp= 140, 2 months x30 xp=60 sub + 2x5 xp for 2 battles =210+basic training 330xp.So our troops on average are -420xp and 1-1 level

The 5 evlish scouts (no level given to us so I assume minimum)120 +9x30= 270 months with manuvers and battles4x5 battles (there may be more battles than I know about if they kill the occassion monster or orc while on patrol + their experience earnedso in the range of -340 and level 1-1

The Rildian company up north has been in the field at least 1 1/2 years18 x30 +120 would be 660 + their 5xp battle bonus any of them that have survived should be level 1 warriors by now

Our workers definately started at -750 yet they have been getting some training and many took xbows to the walls during battle, so have probably have 1/2 basic training 60+2x 5 battle bonus.

It seems to work as a way of explaining the creation of quality soldiers from the rabble as well as differentiating the trained rabble from untrained levies.

Yes constant training should be added to most classes to explain how or why people who don't adventure end up being nth level or such. A profession fencing student could be a 10th fighter and yet never have killed a single person, so I agree that constant training should be added to all classes but in of itself would not solve the bigger issue.

The problem I see is there is no mechanisn to show why a 1st level fighter was suddenly better than a 0 yet had never gained any experience.

Further why a trained yet 0 level soldier was no better than a press ganged levy with no training.

This simply creates a mechanism to control their progression through these 2 extra stages until they suddenly get to be called first level simply because they decide to adventure.

Those rules for Cantrips also broached the same subject, student mages before reaching level 1 can create magic, just nothing powerfull enough to cause harm. I don't have those rules but I believe it used a progression of negative levels to show the progression of little Magelings.

Jonathan, you said you liked it and would consider it. there was never any definative answer, until now. And with the soldiers and the fort and such it seemed like the time to bring it up again.

I think Gygax's idea was that PCs were exceptional specimens and could therefore advance in levels--in contrast to normal people who stay at zero level. This approach has weaknesses, as Carter's desire for a new class makes clear.

I like the XP reward for training, but I wouldn't have a new class. Why be a soldier instead of a fighter? Why not make allowances for a zero-level person to become a 1st level character of any class? Jonathan once ran an adventure in which the PCs started as zero-level people but acquired a character class and advanced to 1st level by the end. The class was based on the character's actvities during the adventure.

Idea: give XP to 0-level characters for training and any other suitable activity. Their initial XP could be, say, negative 1,000 (the cavalier class in Unearthed Arcana had a similar idea). Or, to reflect life experience, a 0-level character could start at negative 2,000 XP as a child and gain 1,000 when he reaches age 16 and 500 more when he becomes 25. When his XP total reaches zero, let him become 1st level. Designate a character class for each activity (e.g., martial training = fighter) and have the character accumulate XP in one or more classes. Perhaps there could be a general XP total in addition to those that accrue to certain classes (use the skill system for class and generic distinctions). When he becomes 1st level, he drops the XP totals for the other classes (but might select or be given a bonus for non-weapon proficiencies in those areas).

Ok we mostly agreed on the rules be it called warrior/soldier or simply rules for pre level 1 fighter, I just need to incorporate a spread sheet into the Cridastan site to monitor the average levels of the troops.

I would agree that this formula could be used for any pre level class, with a range of other xp gaining activities, shoplifting, going to mass, chanting in arcane languages etc.

The next issue is personal training, is 10xp per month/level realistic?I don't think it's too bad

but how many people can a person adequately train at one time?

I would think part of the training time would be routines and exercises like the kata, some training with peers both under the eye of the master and finally a small amount of personal sparing with the master.

As the master progresses he should be able to teach better and handle more students so would 2 students per level of the teacher be reasonable?

a six level fighter being able to train 12 men?

Finally does a teacher gain experience teaching? They learn to teach better, have great opportunites to try new tactics and tricks, would be in top shape from constant sparing.

How much? perhpas 1/2 of the experinence he teaches to his students. Training and running of ones troops should be something some one gets experience for , much like multi level marketing one learns from the interations and experiences of all of the underlings.

I would think that no more than 25% xp be given for training. While the teacher certainly learns something from teaching (what works, what doesn't) it shouldn't be something that allows him to move up levels quickly. It is very easy, as an instructor, to settle into a comfortable routine that will teach your students without you having to work very hard (speaking from experience, I'm sorry to say).

thats fine but no way some one is riding training to the sky as far as levels go a 5th guy can have 15 students the worst of which gain 50 xp per month The teacher even at 100 % would only get 50 x 15 or 750 a month, sounds pretty good but you have to remember that he needs 16000 to go from 5 to 6th, or 21 months. Thats full students at the lowest level, more likely he would need to teach 3 years plus to get a level, not all that lucrative.

At 1/2 or 1/3 its just a token to explain why non adventures eventually get better.

When we last left my monotonous ramblings we were finalizing how a non leveled fighters could gain experience and achieve lev 1 and beyond.

One point brought up was that this formula should be used for all character classes both before leveling and for all those homebody, NPCs that still manage to achieve levels without going out to kill things.

So what xp rewards should be handed to other characters when they are not adventuring or before they’ve taken a career path.

Priest path -

10 xp per/month for a part time lay person working with a priest15 xp per/month for a layperson acting as a priest because no one else is available30 xp/month actively running a small church/chapel/60 xp/month med church or shrine100xp/month large temple500xp/month head of the church.

50 xp per month full religious tutelage ˝ points if not yet literate Up until 1st then the 10xp/level of teacher rule kicks in

recieve at a personal vision (dream) 100xp

present at a vision/manifestation awake 400 xp if a follower, 100 if same pantheon, zip expect a possible crisis of faith if another faith

Religious research full time 100/month (not available to lower level priests who would not understand the nuances or revelations discovered, 4th +

Casting a spell in real use, (not just blowing them to practice) 5x level xp

This can be very lucrative so Dm's must look closely at how generous a priest would be in any situation, and how truly needed these prayers would be. A priest living with actively training soldiers or a troop in the field could be expected to cast a light heal each day for someone who got cut, crushed broken in mock combat or accidents. Unless facing combat where all spells could be cast, a guide line could be one 1st level per day per 50 men/day1 higher spell per week(random) per 50/men

Priests would not waste magic for blisters, small burns, bruises etc.

50xp per convert to faith

clerics would have the same -750 xp to make up to gain level 1

Magic user path

Training with real teacher 40xp per month (1/4 if illiterate) students cannot achieve 1st in magic until they can read (hedge wizards and witches are exempt but they should advance slower if illiterate )

teachers/student level differential x10xp for training after 1stcreating an item as per (dms guide)operating of a charged device 1xp per level of spellfunded research 100/month +10% of the money spent

casting spells, 5 xp/level if used in real life situation2 xp/level if purely used in practice.

Paladin path -1000 xp to make upMust collect 40% of xp required from both cleric and fighter path