Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

I think it's a mixture between fans and the director not promoting and sticking by his/her own product. I think they need to log onto a few horror forums and drop a little message saying here's my movie can you take a look at my trailer. Wouldn't take long, wouldn't hurt and I'm pretty sure most of us here wouldn't mind. Well I wouldn't, I love finding new things.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

I don't see it as being so much about supporting the indies, as Meh discusses in the article. Being an independent film doesn't automatically mean the film should be supported, especially if it sucks. I've worked with indie filmmakers as a writer and I've seen more indie and shot-on-video flicks than I could ever number, and can honestly say that maybe 10% of them were any good. So that argument is moot.

I think it's more a combination of both fan and studio. Fans, because we're so anxious for our horror fill, so eager to find that one genuine, scary thrill, that we'll wade through oceans of dreck in search of it. And studios, because they know fans will wade through oceans of dreck in search of it. Why put forth the effort to make a genuninely haunting, scary, well-acted film with a strong narrative when you can make shit, knowing damn well horror fans will watch it regardless?

So we as horror fans need to become more demanding and expect more from the genre (a position I've held for years and have preached about here often, incidentally) rather than blindly swallow whatever the studios feed us. When their profits begin to hurt from us refusing to see their shit, they'll up the ante and start making better movies.

Fans and studios have a symbiotic relationship. If one of them stops feeding the other, they have to either step up their game or starve to death.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

Nice op/ed piece. There certainly needs to be a debate about this. As members of this forum, it's safe to say that we're the unsilent minority of fans who take the time to seek out new thrills and share our thoughts on them. The way I see it, horror fans will make some kind of attempt to discover obsucre movies while trying to chase the thrill of a really effective film. As Lon mentioned, that involves sludging through hours of half-assed trash flicks. Does it make it all worth it in the end? probably not and we end up falling into the trap laid out in the article. Forums like this can show the divide even between serious horror fans but they also tend to make the truly exceptional movies stand out through concensus or at least enough debate to pique your curiosity. I can't think of how many movies I've discovered by coming to a place like this and reading about them. You get what you give, Horror Fans...stand up for creative and innovative movies and warn the others about the stinkers.I'm suprised there's not a section on here where we can discuss bad movies...it's almost half the fun.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

LoudLon wrote:

I don't see it as being so much about supporting the indies, as Meh discusses in the article. Being an independent film doesn't automatically mean the film should be supported, especially if it sucks. I've worked with indie filmmakers as a writer and I've seen more indie and shot-on-video flicks than I could ever number, and can honestly say that maybe 10% of them were any good. So that argument is moot.

Thank you, someone needed to say this. I love a lot indie horror films, but the vast majority of them are terrible. Anyways, I agree with what lon said. Stop paying to see shit and studios will stop making shit.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

It is not the fans fault that independent horror isn't selling. Make some great horror movies that don't rely on nasty ass shock value like Human Centipede and maybe we will pay attention.

You can say for a fact that a movie as good as Carpenter's The Thing hasn't been made for years and years. Nightmare on Elm St, Scream, Poltergeist, Gremlins. These are the horror movies that sell and continue to sell 30 years later. It is not the fans fault that studios do not produce horror movies of this quality anymore.

I've really enjoyed some Horror movies the last couple years but as people have talked about on this thread, you have to dig deep to find them. Is it the fans fault that Horror movies have completely gotten away from first concentrating on making a GOOD movie? It all starts with the script. You write a bad script and it doesn't matter anymore. You can make up for it like the Strangers tried to make up for it at the end of that AWFUL film. Let's just stab these people and make you watch and listen, because the rest of our terrible movie won't get you to feel ANYTHING.

Give the fans what studios were giving us in the mid to late 70s, on through the 80s, and you will no longer have to worry about Horror selling. We haven't had one horror movie on the level of the classics like Exorcist, Carrie, Nightmare on Elm St, Halloween. No one from Hollywood or independently has made a Horror movie really even remotely as good as these classics in the last 10 years. Hollywoods best directors were making horror movies in the late 70s and the 80s, so it elevated everything. Now that Hollywood no longer cares about Horror, it has fallen into the hands of Independent film makers who simply can not do what the best Directors of our time were doing in the prime of horror.

Final Destination, The Descent, Saw. These are commonly known as the better horror movies of the 2000s. Maybe it is the fans fault for allowing this type of average horror to be praised. Solid movies, no doubt. But if you think the Descent will have the lasting effect that movies like Nightmare on Elm St. have on America, you are dead wrong.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

^^^ Some good points.

All the gore and violence in the world won't save a horror film with no story and cardboard characters. More than anything horror relies on the fear of death; you're not afraid for a character you don't give a shit about, and you're left wanting by movies without strong, moving storytelling.

Storytelling and characterization. These are key.

I've had conversations with indie filmmakers who insist that films on their budgetary level must have nudity and gore to be successful. And I always argue that if that's the case, there would be no unsuccessful indie flicks.

A good script makes all the difference. Give a bad director a good script and as long as he shoots what's on the page, he's going to have a good movie. Take Kevin Smith's debut flick Clerks for example. The writing is good, the characters so engaging, the dialogue so entertaining, that you don't notice the incompetent direction. But even the best direction can't save a weak screenplay (I'm looking at you, The Innkeepers). The result will only be a pretty piece of crap. A polished turd.

But I have no desire to award lazy writing and, unfortunately, that's mostly what we've been getting these days.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

LoudLon wrote:

I don't see it as being so much about supporting the indies, as Meh discusses in the article. Being an independent film doesn't automatically mean the film should be supported, especially if it sucks. I've worked with indie filmmakers as a writer and I've seen more indie and shot-on-video flicks than I could ever number, and can honestly say that maybe 10% of them were any good. So that argument is moot.

I think it's more a combination of both fan and studio. Fans, because we're so anxious for our horror fill, so eager to find that one genuine, scary thrill, that we'll wade through oceans of dreck in search of it. And studios, because they know fans will wade through oceans of dreck in search of it. Why put forth the effort to make a genuninely haunting, scary, well-acted film with a strong narrative when you can make shit, knowing damn well horror fans will watch it regardless?

So we as horror fans need to become more demanding and expect more from the genre (a position I've held for years and have preached about here often, incidentally) rather than blindly swallow whatever the studios feed us. When their profits begin to hurt from us refusing to see their shit, they'll up the ante and start making better movies.

Fans and studios have a symbiotic relationship. If one of them stops feeding the other, they have to either step up their game or starve to death.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

Very interesting article Meh wrote.I believe some fans are to blame. I for one check out everything that go out or is gonna go out, thanks to this place and the main page but also the LOADS of other sites I visit daily. I wanna know. I don't care if the reviews are good or not, weird, very weird tastes but I always look out for articles and previews.

Some of us don't like it this way. They just check out mainstream stuff that they saw on a TV spot. Some others don't, like me. Maybe the problem is that not good enough promotion is done but I doubt that.

I think the main problem is that big studios don't give enough chances to indie films. Their primary goal is to make the most money. So they don't wanna take risks with stuff like Girls Gone Dead or upcoming Know Models Were Harmed for exemple. Don't judge the 2 movies I listed, they are EXAMPLES.

I think what they should do is take nominated films at festivals like TIFF or Sundance and grab them to at least distribute them which would give 'em much more coverage, I mean, if they're nominated at these HUGE indie film festivals they may be worth the risk.

Now do they want to do that???That's a question only the chairmen of the huge companies can answer.

I've never been a fan of the whole criticizing thing. I hate that. I'm not seeing a movie that way. I see it from a fan of ALL movies point of view. Yeah even Razzy's nominated & awarded ones I love. There's is very few I really hate. Fucking Exorcist being the worst of them all. I prefer The Inkeepers to that shit. I feel alone like that. Maybe it'd help liking more indie movies instead of putting them down for this or that reason. That's my own humble personal thoughts. Agree or not is the very least of my preoccupations.

Well that's all folks, thanks for reading. You now can go back to the regular program.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

LoudLon wrote:

^^^ Some good points.

All the gore and violence in the world won't save a horror film with no story and cardboard characters. More than anything horror relies on the fear of death; you're not afraid for a character you don't give a shit about, and you're left wanting by movies without strong, moving storytelling.

Storytelling and characterization. These are key.

I've had conversations with indie filmmakers who insist that films on their budgetary level must have nudity and gore to be successful. And I always argue that if that's the case, there would be no unsuccessful indie flicks.

A good script makes all the difference. Give a bad director a good script and as long as he shoots what's on the page, he's going to have a good movie. Take Kevin Smith's debut flick Clerks for example. The writing is good, the characters so engaging, the dialogue so entertaining, that you don't notice the incompetent direction. But even the best direction can't save a weak screenplay (I'm looking at you, The Innkeepers). The result will only be a pretty piece of crap. A polished turd.

But I have no desire to award lazy writing and, unfortunately, that's mostly what we've been getting these days.

Yup I feel the exact same way about the script. Tarantino was quoted recently as saying when he writes a script, he is basically writing a Novel. He doesn't think about the Cinematic aspects until AFTER the script is complete. Then, if he feels good enough about it, he will try to turn it into a movie. When this happens, the script always gets compromised.

It is just kind of interesting how important the script is FIRST.

Lazy writing is EXACTLY what we've been getting these days. In my opinion, it seems like most of the Horror movies that are good these days are just the ones that end up trying to pay homage to the films of the 70s and 80s. Nothing wrong with that. If that is what it takes to get a good horror film, then so be it. As I mentioned above, unfortunately Horror is no longer in the hands of talented Hollywood director's. Craven, Carpenter, Hooper, Joe Dante. They set the bar so high that even when guys like Dekker would direct something like Night of the Creeps or MonsterSquad, it would turn out classic. Because it HAD TO. The standards were so high back then. Then standards have dropped quite a ways over the years to the point of 9/10 horror movies are close to unwatchable. Last couple years the bar has risen a little bit in my opinion thanks to Hollywood coming through with something that will last like Cabin in the Woods, and also thanks to independent Horror stepping up their game a little bit.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

^^^Yeah, true guys like Tarentino, Carpenter, Romero to name only these few are just masters of script writing.But just never forget that everyone sees things differently and like different stuff. I know some of my friends which hate what Tarentino has done BUT they love Fast and Furious stuff.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

I just read the article and I have go say it's not very well written. It's a lot of presumptions with no research to back it up. How can he tell us what fans do, want and think? he can speak for himself, but with out any sort of research or analytical data he shouldn't be telling me and other fans what it is that we think. Otherwise it just represents what Meh himself thinks, and essentially he's just complaining about himself.

I agree with some of the points though, especially about the market being flooded and it is sometimes hard to tell what is worth watching and not. Also that some companies do not put the effort forth to promote their film properly.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

kXnPunk wrote:

^^^Yeah, true guys like Tarentino, Carpenter, Romero to name only these few are just masters of script writing.But just never forget that everyone sees things differently and like different stuff. I know some of my friends which hate what Tarentino has done BUT they love Fast and Furious stuff.

Haha they hate Pulp Fiction but love Fast and Furious? I can find something good in almost any decent film so to hear that someone hates one of America's best director's makes me wonder....

Some people chose to critique movies. I mostly just enjoy them. If it is a good movie I can appreciate it even if I don't necessarily enjoy it.

And everyone hates certain films, you hate Exorcist? It is not one of my favs but I definitely enjoy it. Even when hating a film, you should be able to appreciate certain things still like the atmosphere. The atmosphere in that movie is simply unhateable haha.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

Cap Howdy wrote:

That's your opinion.

Some of it is yeah, but most of it is laid out right in front of us. His acticle has no links to a poll or research on popular opinion or sales. That's not an opinion, look at it. There's also many factors that are ignored. Like the fact that people go see a lot of movie in theatres, so when two new movie comes out, one independent with no theatre releases in most towns, the other a hollywood re-make, it's pretty obvious which one will make more money.

I have nothing against Meh or even his point of view on this, he may well be right. But I feel that oversaturation is the biggest problem. And not just for horror movies, almost anything. The internet has made it quite easy to create and promote one's own product often with amateurish results. But that's my opinion.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

BUT Theli he is asking us our thoughts as as he runs the joint he's also the powers that be who sees everything and hears everything that goes on here and upon observation I can see everything that he picks up on. You don't need to show bar graphs and score charts to prove you've done your research.. Tbh I'm not here to look at pie charts and mathematical equations, if I was I'd be in the wrong place. It's JUST an observational article that we are them provoked to give our thoughts on the question at hand. ARE horror fans the problem? Not always no your point of going to the cinema to see a remake is easier than hunting down an indie we know nothing about is a good point.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

Fair enough, the only part of the article I really found going out on a limb was the comment about new fans looking for the nostalgia that brothers, sisters and parents feel about old movies. I don't know anyone who feels that way. In fact most of us horror fans around here liked the movies all independently of our parents. My parents never watched horror movies, nor did most of my friends. We got into the same way many kids did in the past, watching something we weren't supposed to be watching.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

My mum introduced me to horror as a child with mild tim burton and eventually American werewolf in london and the first noes. Then I went off on my own to find stuff. I feel I've outgrown my mums horror seeking indie and extreme while my mum likes old school. I have started my 3 year old on horror with tim burton, monster house, coraline and even some of the more scary disneys. We even watched ghost busters, even scooby doo has horror for kids. It's how I started and I can imagine a lot of us here were introduced by siblings, parents, older friends, cousins etc especially as when I was a kid I didn't have the Internet or anything so I learnt about movies from my friends by word of mouth.

Re: The Horror Genre: Are Horror Fans The Problem?

Mainstream Horror feeds the masses and yes I like to be fed.Indie Horror is an Art form. It is on a level of appreciation. I am thrilled more young people are wanting to make Horror movies. Once the masses get the scent of Indie Horror they will know what to do;)