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It is wonderful to read a debate between a Soil Scientist who was born as Muslim and Dr. Ali Sina on the subject of Islam. Such open discussions on internet is a terrific way of exploring on what is true and what is Untrue in Islam.

Pallacken Abdul Wahid was born on 10 June 1946 in Thalassery, Kerala State, India. He received his B.Sc and M.Sc degrees (both in agriculture) from Kerala University. His specialization is Agricultural Chemistry with Agricultural Botany (Cytogenetics and Plant Breeding) as second subject. He did Ph.D (Utkal University, Orissa, India) in the area of pesticide pollution of agricultural ecosystems.His research career spanned over 34 years in the Indian Council of Agricultural Research (ICAR), Kerala Agricultural University (KAU), and Kerala State Council for Science, Technology and Environment (KSCSTE) as scientist, academician and research administrator.

A causal look at his research publication at http://www.islamicscienceforum.org/scientific%5C1.doc and his publications/books on Islam http://www.islamicscienceforum.org/books.asp tells the reader the wonderful scientific background + religious backdround of Dr. that Pallacken Abdul Wahid . So let us read and comment on the debate in the forum apart from FFI front page.. Let us also reads some of Publications of Dr. that Pallacken Abdul Wahid on Islam that are freely available on web at these links.

It is very clear from his background of Soil Science and Islam + Islamic Science Prof. P. A. Wahid pawahid @ hotmail.com has terrific background., And I am sure this debate will give us lot of insights on the mind set of a very well educated yet a VERY STRONG believer of Islam, Prophet Muhammad as the Last messenger of Allah/God and Q'uran is the word of Allah/God. I have a feeling that readers will have great fun in this debate and counter discussions..

I started wondering why his findings from Q'uran with reference to Science HAS NOT BEEN PUBLISHED IN A PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL such as Nature., or Many Biological and Nuclear Science journals that publish articles on Science Concepts/Methodology and new discoveries..

Any way dr. Abdul Wahid mentions following ayahs from Q'uran to squeeze and extract Science out of them. So let us put those ayahs here as reference point. From dr. Abdul Wahid's internet publication., http://www.islamicscienceforum.org/books/21_2.pdf the following Ayahs are taken by him to present his claim that many modern scientific discoveries are in fact already present/hidden in Q'uran. dr.Wahid writes

English translation of the Quranic verses quoted in this book is as given by A.Yusuf Ali (The Holy Quran, Amana Corp., Maryland, U.S.A.). I have however replaced words like ‘thy’ and verb endings like ‘-est’ with words and expressions in common usage. In some cases, Arabic words in the Quran have been retained while presenting the translation depending on the necessity and context.

PAGE-3: Behold! In the creation of the skies and the earth, and the alternation of night and day – there are indeed signs for men of understanding,- Men who celebrate the praise of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of ) creation of the skies and the earth (with the thought): “Our Lord! Not for naught You have created (all) this! Glory to You! …....(Q. 3: 190-191)

PAGE-5:“It is He Who taught man that he did not know”. ...(Q. 96:5)

PAGE-10:It is Allah Who begins (the process of ) creation; then repeats it; and for Him it is most easy…. for He is Exalted in Might, full of wisdom. ...... (Q. 30:27)

From Page 169 to 182, dr. Abdul Wahid used the following ayahs to describe relationship between Modern science and Q'uran

6.3.1 The Quranic indicators

There are several verses in the Quran, which point to a computerised set-up of the universe. These relate to the structural components, natural mechanisms and functioning of the universe, monitoring and real-time recording of the goings-on, testing of human beings, recording of the activities of each human individual, judgement of human beings based on individual dossiers, to cite but a few. Some of the relevant messages are given below.

“Glorify the name of your Guardian Lord, most high, Who created and further gave order and proportion, Who ordained laws and granted guidance.” [/b] ...(Q. 87:1-3)

“Verily your Lord is God Who created the skies and the earth in six days and is firmly established on the throne (of authority) regulating and governing all things….” ...(Q. 10:3)

“For to anything which We have willed, We only say the word, “be” and it is”. (Q. 16:40) “So He completed them as seven skies…and inspired in each sky its duty and command…” ... (Q. 41:12)

[i]“This Our Record speaks about you with truth, for all that you did were put on record by Us”. ...(Q. 45:29)

“Read your own record; sufficient are you this day to make out an account against you”. ...(Q. 17:14)

“Then he who is given his record in his right hand, soon will his account be taken by an easy reckoning….But he who is given his record behind his back, soon will he cry for perdition, and he will enter a blazing fire.”...(Q. 84:7-12)

“….God is swift in taking account.”...(Q. 24:39)

“With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none but He knows. He knows whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf falls without His knowledge. There is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a clear Record”. ...(Q. 6:59)

“It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He decides a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be’, and it is.” ... (Q. 19:35)

“To Him is due the primal origin of the skies and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He says to it: ‘Be’, and it is.” ...(Q. 2:117)

“When I have fashioned him (first man, Adam) and breathed into him from My ruh, you (Angels) fall down in obeisance to him.”...(Q. 15:2)

“…We sent to her Our ruh and he appeared before her as a man in all respects….He said: I am only a messenger from your Lord to gift a holy son to you.”...(Q. 19:17-19)

“And (remember) her (virgin Mary) who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her from Our ruh, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples.” ...(Q. 21:91)

“Then God will say “Oh Jesus the son of Mary! Recount my favour to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with ruh-ul-khudus so that you did speak to the people in childhood and maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book of Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold! You make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My permission, you breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by My permission; and you heal those born blind and the lepers by My permission; and behold! You bring forth the dead by My permission….” ...(Q. 5:110)

“Say ruh-ul-khudus has brought the revelation from your Lord in truth….”... (Q. 16:102)

“Praise be to God Who created the skies and the earth, Who made the Angels messengers with wings….He adds to creation as He pleases: for God has power over all things.” ...(Q. 35:1)

“…He (Satan) said: Your Lord only forbade you this Tree lest you should become Angels or such beings as live for ever.” (Q. 7:20)[/b] [/color]

“Say: The Angel of Death put in charge of you will (duly) take your souls; then you shall be brought back to your Lord.” ...(Q. 32:11)

“Oh, you who believe! Save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones, over which are (appointed) Angels stern (and) severe, who do not flinch (from executing) the commands they receive from God, but do (precisely) what they are commanded”. ...(Q. 66:6)

“Behold, two (guardian Angels) appointed to learn (man’s actions and note them) one sitting on the right and the other on the left. Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him ready (to note it).” ...(Q. 50:17-18)

“Behold, your Lord said to the Angels: “I will create a vicegerent on earth.” They said: “Will You place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood? While we do celebrate your praises and glorify your holy (name).” He said: “I know what you do not know.” ...(Q.2:30)

“The Night of Power is better than a thousand months. Therein come down the Angels and ruh by God’s command on every errand.” ...(Q. 97:3-4)

“He sends down His Angels with ruh by His command to such of His servants as He pleases, (saying): Warn (man) that there is no God but I: so do your duty to Me.”...(Q. 16:2)

“He rules (all) affairs from the sky to the earth; in the end all affairs will go up to Him on a day that is a thousand years of your (man’s) reckoning.” ...(Q. 32:5)

“He knows all that goes into the earth and all that comes out of it, all that comes down from the sky and all that ascends thereto. And He is the Most Merciful, the Oft-Forgiving.”...(Q. 34:2)

“…He Who knows the unseen – from Whom is not hidden the least little atom in the skies or on the earth; nor is there anything less than that, or greater, but is in the Perspicuous Record.” ... (Q. 34:3)

“Allah does blot out (delete) or confirm (retain) what He pleases: with Him is the Mother of the Book.” ...(Q. 13:39)

“So He completed them as seven skies…and inspired in each sky its duty and command…” ...(Q. 41:12)

“And among His signs is this, that sky and earth stand by His command…” ...(Q.30:25)

So with the above ayahs from Q'uran Dr. Pallacken Abdul Wahid filled 190 pages of a PDF file at http://www.islamicscienceforum.org/books/21_2.pdf part-2 on various subjects of Science from Origin of Universe to Origin Life to Micro chips and super conductors. we will dissect his selected ayahs from quran and his science from those ayahs..

Are you sure what you are writing? Do you believe that this guy doesnt have the intelligence since you wish that he is blessed with intelligence?

Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

i think Mr. Wahid had a serious crisis of faith when he was debating with Ali Sina.I had also initiated a debate with Dr.Wahid. He had written to me that he will respond to me once I let him know my belief system.After numerous reminders, all that Dr.Wahid could come up with " Please visit my website xxx to understand my position on Islam".

No mail since then and mind you my questions were not related to Hadiths and stuff that he rejects. I had a few simple questions

a) why did Allah reveal Quran before sending a proper recording equipment to humans so that everything that Mo did could be properly recorded for the benefit of all of us.

b) Why did Allah create pigs only to call them filthy and unclean?

EDIT:c) why could Allah not prevent corrupted hadiths when he could prevent Quran from getting corrupted?

“The truth, of course, is that a billion falsehoods told a billion times by a billion people are still false.”

God does not want us to intellectually lazy. the early muslims commited the quran to memory and wrote on hides etc. that age did not the computer to store the quran or hadith.

the reason that some hadiths are rejected is that the chain of transmission in not reliable. note the difference between the quran and the hadith: the former was meant to be a one complete book and it is. the latter was not. i was later that some muslim scholars saw it reasonable to write down the hadith.

in the case of christianity the former case does not exist. the whole new testament was written by people far after the depature of Christ.

but your comment is not affecting islam alone. rather islamic texts came closer to the computer age that all other monotheistic faiths.

why God did not show man how to make a computer in the 6th and 7th century is God the business of God. He does as He will. i suggest you fast and pray for 40 days and nights in the secluded mountains and ask God to tell you why he delayed the computer age. may be He ll respond.

the reason that some hadiths are rejected is that the chain of transmission in not reliable.

O.K., welcome to ffi yunusah.

note the difference between the quran and the hadith: the former was meant to be a one complete book and it is. the latter was not.

What differences do you see between Quran and the Hadith dear yunusah? Did you read Quran? Did you read Arabic Q'uran? I am sure you know well, Some words of Hadith and Words in Q'uran came out of Prophet Muhammad's mouth., Now the question is How do these people who collected know which is hadith and which is Q'uran?.. After all Muhammad didn't read Q'uran as book.so many Questions WITHOUT READING Q'uran and with reading they multiply exponentially..

i was later that some muslim scholars saw it reasonable to write down the hadith.

May be., But why you need hadith? Just Burn all of them, you know there are some bad things, very bad stuff that come of hadith on actions of Prophet of Islam. So we have enough junk and enough nonsense in Q'uran to deal with., don't you think we should throw all hadith out of Islam dear yunusah ??

and what makes you think that they did not mess up. Human memory is fallible and it is no secret. How does one know that those people did not modify the words of MO to suit their own purposes. Humans are known to be selfish.

yunusah wrote: and wrote on hides etc.

Allah must be a lousy planner to send his final messenger just before even printing could be invented. Forget about more advanced recording systems.

yunusah wrote:that age did not the computer to store the quran or hadith.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. By the way, isnt innovation banned in Islam.

yunusah wrote:the reason that some hadiths are rejected is that the chain of transmission in not reliable.

and how do you know Quran has not been altered?

yunusah wrote:note the difference between the quran and the hadith:

ok.

yunusah wrote: the former was meant to be a one complete book and it is.

so what do verses like alif laam mim mean?

yunusah wrote: the latter was not. i was later that some muslim scholars saw it reasonable to write down the hadith.

i guess they committed shirk then because they overruled the message of allah and his messenger that Quran is the only book to be followed.

yunusah wrote:in the case of christianity the former case does not exist. the whole new testament was written by people far after the depature of Christ.

as is the case with Quran. By the way, do you know the story of a person whom Mohammad killed after the guy caught MO's lies? That guy used to write mo's verses and when he suggested mo that something else will be better suited, mo said yes of course. please write that. Do you know where that came from?

yunusah wrote:but your comment is not affecting islam alone. rather islamic texts came closer to the computer age that all other monotheistic faiths.

so what. does that absolve islam. Islam is the only cult masquerading as a true religion.

yunusah wrote:why God did not show man how to make a computer in the 6th and 7th century is God the business of God.

and there you throw your intellect into the trash bin which apparently your god gave to use.

yunusah wrote:He does as He will.

as usual, when helpless, Allah knows best but does not know enough to send his final messenger after sending better recording qquipment.

yunusah wrote: i suggest you fast and pray for 40 days and nights in the secluded mountains

pray to a god who acted as mo's pimp. sorry. can't do that.

yunusah wrote:and ask God to tell you why he delayed the computer age.

i do not have that much time to waste on a lousy god who took 23 years to dictate a book. HUmans do much better than that.

yunusah wrote:may be He ll respond.

why don't you give it a try? may be that might save your islam from annihilation.

“The truth, of course, is that a billion falsehoods told a billion times by a billion people are still false.”