BullBearMS:cameroncrazy1984: Andyr2120: One is a hell of a lot more innovative than the PS3.75

Exactly how?

It's slower, removes your first sale rights, AND is more expensive.

Win, Win, Win

"Slower" is a relative term.

The PS3 has beefier hardware under the hood than does the 360. Unfortunately, every time I buy a PS3 game I have to spend 30 minutes installing the game and an hour updating it multiple times (I believe Uncharted 3 was something like a 30 minute install and 5 updates in a row before I could play it).

Load times for starting games on a PS3 are almost unbearably slow, often in the minutes, and the GUI farking lags and can't keep up with my preferred fast pace at navigating the menus.

My experience on the 360 vs the PS3: the PS3 has marginally better graphics, but this is completely outweighed by the ridiculous wait times I have to endure while the PS3 gets its shiat together.

EkimProx:People don't understand that you're never going to get amazing deals like you get on Steam without DRM. Beats the holy hell out of trading in The Last of Us for $30 tomorrow at GameStop so they'll sell it for $54. You want cheap games? You want to buy used games? If you have DRM then you can download them in the future for a fraction of the cost.

The BS about about cloud computing as an excuse for required on-line sounds awfully similar to what we heard when Simcity launched. Turns out that was complete and utter bullshiat, it was just drm.

I honestly don't know if I'll get a PS4, but the chances of me getting an Xbone seem to shrink daily. I'd rather not buy a console that seems to be a middle finger towards me, while it's "advances" are either things that previous consoles had (media, kinect) or shiat that steam has had for 7+ years now (cloud services).

Honestly these threads entertain me mainly because of the fanboys (possibly shills) are desperately trying to deny the truth that Microsoft is choking on its own foot at the moment.

cameroncrazy1984:Andyr2120: For starters, Kinect 2.0 makes a mockery of PS Eye in every way, and the combo of gesture and voice commands actually becomes useful for the first time in a consumer device. People say they don't want Kinect, but I am certain they will change their mind. In this area, it seems like Sony is only making minimal attempts to even compete.

Voice control is an innovation now? it's been around for years. It's in the 360 right now. Where's the innovation there?

Well, it actually works on the One.

Andyr2120: I also look forward to using my Xbox to access TV and movies.

You can already do this.

I don't of any other product that covers so many bases and makes it look easy. Maybe the next version of Google TV or Apple TV?

Andyr2120: MS says they added 200,000 servers to their Xbox Live architecture. This may or may not be marketing noise, but they say they have enough computing power to give each One 3 to 4x its own CPU power in the cloud. Sony has nothing of the like, unless you count Gaikai. They aren't really the same thing

"More servers" isn't an innovation, neither is cloud computing.

Again, it works great for a company like Amazon but has not been done at all for game consoles. Making it cloud computing useful in a gaming environment is the kind of thing that gets me going since I work in I.T. Implementing a system of this size, speed and nature is real innovation.

Andyr2120: Second, I honestly look forward to playing without the need of changing discs. Apparently, I still need to get off my ass and change the disc to play a PS4 game.

I've downloaded several games from the PSN. No disc required.

That's great, but if you buy a PS4 game you will need to find it and put it in the tray to play it. Seems like a small thing until it is 2am and your online friends want to replay a mission in a game that you haven't played for a while. And it turns out that the kids took it upstairs to play, so you need to quietly poke though their stuff to play the game. I don't know how many times I lived through this! Not only will I not have to do that again, but my kids might even be able to use MY copy of the game and associated DLC instead of buying a second copy and buying the DLC all over again. And that's before we even get into the possibility of going to a friend's house and playing my games even if my friend doesn't own those games...

I'm not a console partisan in any way, given I usually have every console that comes out (and will probably get both of these as well) -- but I am really starting to wonder if some exec from Sony didn't secretly get put in charge of Microsoft's X-Box One strategy.

Discs are done in the long run. The outrage is inevitable and *someone*s gotta go first on the console side.I'm not sure if Microsoft is ballsy for blazing the trail or stupid for sticking their chin out while Sony was playing coy.

What they really need now is to demonstrate that they're doing a PC-style backwards compat strategy, and releasing hardware more-frequently. Because digital is going to win, but the winner can't have hardware that doesn't change for 8 years, nor software that's not supported when the hardware *does* update.

/ personally i think both sony and ms went PC-style architecture because they both plan on updating hardware more frequently// but we'll see/// damned if MS's virtualization architecture isn't perfect for such an approach though.

Subtle_Canary:Comparing the consoles based off THAT level of superficiality is like comparing 2 competing toaster ovens that come with nipple clamps. sure one brand may have a more comfortable, rubber coated plastic nipple clamp versus the others' hard edged metal clamps, but neither is what im looking for in my toast procurement needs.

cameroncrazy1984:dehehn: It can also tell when you're looking at it so it knows when you are talking to it and not someone else

So...an innovation that already exists on smartphones for a year when it comes out?

Yawn.

Did you even watch the video? It can also isolate your voice in a full crowded room in real time. That is very impressive.

It can also detect your heart rate just by detecting color changes in your face. It can tell the muscle pressures going on in your body based on your stance. It can detect your mood based on your facial expressions. All of these technologies together make for a very powerful camera that no one else has anything close to.

Possibly more interesting for medical and spying fields than for gaming, but it not yawn worthy at all.

Andyr2120:People say they don't want Kinect, but I am certain they will change their mind.

aaaand I stopped reading here. I know lots of people with xbox/kinect, including myself. I dont know a single person who actually keeps the thing plugged in. Its just too creepy, and honestly farking pointless. Flailing your arms around to give the TV commands is NOT more intuitive than pushing a button, sorry.

Also, anybody who has ever actually tried to game with kinect has realized that its clunky and has shiat for games. They've had quite awhile to release some good kinect titles... they all blow. Dancing and kids petting animals are the only two things anyone actually uses a kinect for.

I refuse to have an always on spy device watching me all the time. I physically disable the camera on my laptop and other devices as well.

But.. why would you fork over money for something with a main feature that you hate? Are people really that brainwashed?

Even though I think it's a stupid policy I also know that the requirement would have little effect on how I use my game system.

Arachnophobe:I asked this in another thread, but never got a response. Which is understandable given the wild argument that had broken out in there.

I recall reading that if the Kinect camera can't detect anything in front of it, then the entire system shuts down or won't start up. Is that accurate, or has it been debunked? My google-fu hasn't turned up a solid answer to that.

Unless someone can post a proper citation I think that is more "truth" being spread. Just willful exaggeration, I know the kinect needs to be hooked up but apparently can be turned off. What MS is doing is annoying enough without piling bullshiat on top of it.

abhorrent1:slayer199: Microsoft really screwed the pooch with this one. They've pissed off most segments of the gaming market. I haven't seen this kind of outrage since...well...since EA's SimCity debacle.

Problem is the complaints came from an already purchased game. No one is even going to buy an XBone. Even if they evetntually fix it and do away with all the crap, most will have already bout a PS4.

The whole thing turns gaming, as it has always been, on its head. I've been a serious gamer since 1986, and would rather go back to playing PS2 games forever than to play along with this new model of doing business.

I'll admit that the games XBone showed at E3 were quite impressive, and I'll also admit that they'll probably win in the end (because people are farking idiots). STILL, under absolutely NO circumstances, will I go along with this and get an XBone. As far as I'm concerned, it killed real gaming.

Let's be honest here, it doesn't matter what the fark the console is and has to do entirely how the games are for the system and pricepoint. It is common knowledge performance and the rest of the crap will be similar. The second platform specific games go away that are good is the second you end up with a rebirth of consoles. You will see a ton of manufacturers build game boxes until ultimately PCs get to the pricepoint where buying a console is obsolete and you end up with a single solitary entertainment box that does everything for a fraction of the price you were spending for everything...

Read this. Thurrott is right about what needs to change. In my mind the biggest problem is the 1 - 2 whammy of additional cost plus Xbox Live. I don't buy (or rent) used games often enough for it to resonate with me. The internet requirement is asinine. DRM isn't inherently a problem, but Steam does it right. Start a game once with the internet connected and cache the DRM. Kinect? I think it actually pretty kick ass, but not necessarily for gaming. Farhad Manjoo over at Slate made a really good argument about how the TV side of the Xbox One is really what Steve Jobs would have liked to have with an Apple TV.

The "love" Sony is getting seems misplaced to me. They are playing the console gaming crowd like a well tuned violin. Don't think for a minute that they might not change their tune if it benefits them.

Me? I may just pass on the next gen of consoles, I really want a Steam Box of some sort. If it comes within the next year, that will be my decision.

On the graphics side it's once again obvious that Microsoft and Sony are shopping at the same store as the Xbox One's SoC integrates an AMD GCN based GPU. Here's where things start to get a bit controversial. Sony opted for an 18 Compute Unit GCN configuration, totaling 1152 shader processors/cores/ALUs. Microsoft went for a far smaller configuration: 768 (12 CUs).

Microsoft can't make up the difference in clock speed alone (AMD's GCN seems to top out around 1GHz on 28nm), and based on current leaks it looks like both MS and Sony are running their GPUs at the same 800MHz clock. The result is a 33% reduction in compute power, from 1.84 TFLOPs in the PS4 to 1.23 TFLOPs in the Xbox One.

There's no escaping the fact that Microsoft has given the Xbox One less GPU hardware than Sony gave the PlayStation 4. Note that unlike the Xbox 360 vs. PS3 era, Sony's hardware advantage here won't need any clever developer work to extract - the architectures are near identical, Sony just has more resources available to use.

And again, the PS3 outclasses the 360 in any measure of raw computing power. But the Sony OS, install policies, and update structure make the PS3 a vastly "slower" experience than the 360.

Sony makes you install the full game and then go through a series of sequential updates to finally play the game. The 360 does a minimal install and a SINGLE, cumulative update before you can play. The PS3 also has egregious load times when you start up a game, often in minutes, whereas the 360 starts up a game immediately.

Software structure and GUI response time make a big difference in the end user experience. Do try to keep up.

ringersol:Discs are done in the long run. The outrage is inevitable and *someone*s gotta go first on the console side.I'm not sure if Microsoft is ballsy for blazing the trail or stupid for sticking their chin out while Sony was playing coy.

What they really need now is to demonstrate that they're doing a PC-style backwards compat strategy, and releasing hardware more-frequently. Because digital is going to win, but the winner can't have hardware that doesn't change for 8 years, nor software that's not supported when the hardware *does* update.

/ personally i think both sony and ms went PC-style architecture because they both plan on updating hardware more frequently// but we'll see/// damned if MS's virtualization architecture isn't perfect for such an approach though.

there's a method already in use by sony and nintendo for nudging people over to digital without screwing them over with draconian DRM: make fewer physical copies

Xythero:I can't wait for the PS4 to come out, because that is probably when I will buy a PS3.

/cheapskate

The current gen versions are kind of ugly compared to my Slim version, but it is a great console. Spent last night playing through the first bit of The Last of Us, which is just a gorgeous game. The cut scene with the first big death in the game looks close to photorealistic, to the point where if you squint it almost looks like real actors.

The Playstation Plus service is a killer deal, too. The past couple months alone have given me Sleeping Dogs, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Uncharted 3, and Little Big Planet Karting for free. I keep having to upgrade my hard drive to keep up.

I am going to enjoy all of the butthurt from PS4 owners when they buy the console and find that the publishers are simply going to make the same DRM requirements the XBox One will have, or when Sony changes its mind a few months down the line and mandates it.

Look we all know digital distribution and the mandatory DRM that goes along with it is the future. It's taken over PC games in the form of Steam/Origin/Gamefly/Amazon/etc. Arguably those services restrict you more than the XBox One will. And PC users love them.

Console users will embrace it eventually. They just need to have their whiny immature manchild temper tantrums first.

On the graphics side it's once again obvious that Microsoft and Sony are shopping at the same store as the Xbox One's SoC integrates an AMD GCN based GPU. Here's where things start to get a bit controversial. Sony opted for an 18 Compute Unit GCN configuration, totaling 1152 shader processors/cores/ALUs. Microsoft went for a far smaller configuration: 768 (12 CUs).

Microsoft can't make up the difference in clock speed alone (AMD's GCN seems to top out around 1GHz on 28nm), and based on current leaks it looks like both MS and Sony are running their GPUs at the same 800MHz clock. The result is a 33% reduction in compute power, from 1.84 TFLOPs in the PS4 to 1.23 TFLOPs in the Xbox One.

There's no escaping the fact that Microsoft has given the Xbox One less GPU hardware than Sony gave the PlayStation 4. Note that unlike the Xbox 360 vs. PS3 era, Sony's hardware advantage here won't need any clever developer work to extract - the architectures are near identical, Sony just has more resources available to use.

And again, the PS3 outclasses the 360 in any measure of raw computing power. But the Sony OS, install policies, and update structure make the PS3 a vastly "slower" experience than the 360.

Sony makes you install the full game and then go through a series of sequential updates to finally play the game. The 360 does a minimal install and a SINGLE, cumulative update before you can play. The PS3 also has egregious load times when you start up a game, often in minutes, whereas the 360 starts up a game immediately.

Software structure and GUI response time make a big difference in the end user experience. Do try to keep up.

Which is exactly what both xbox one and PS4 will be doing. They both use a blueray drive and will require a full install before you can play.

BullBearMS:Elegy: Software structure and GUI response time make a big difference in the end user experience. Do try to keep up.

Paid Microsoft shill like typing detected.

XBone's hardware is a full third less powerful when it comes to graphics than the PS4.

That's just a fact, no matter how you try to spin it.

Costs more. Does less.

I love the fact that anyone who actually prefers the 360 to PC gaming or a PS3 MUST be a paid shill.

I own both a PS3 and a 360. Despite the PS3 having more computing power its marginally better graphics, the experience of using the machine is vastly slower than the 360.

So yes, the PS3 is "faster" than the 360 - hence the better graphics. But the ultimate experience is that I have to sit around and wait on the PS3 to load the game, or the next level, for minutes at a time, to realize that "faster" capability. It is vastly frustrating, the 360 by far is a much faster, smoother experience, despite the lower quality of graphics.

If you really don't understand that raw numbers do not necessarily mean a faster, less frustrating experience on the user's end, then you must not know much about computers.

Whew glad Sony is making sure that we don't have to worry to much about drm at all! Hold on I'm having a problem with the SONY BMG CD does anybody know how to uninstall a rootkit. Oh I also got some mail from a credit company notifying me that my credit card info got stolen? Oh well hey a Sony VP is having a press release clearing up some things about DRM on the console, sounds like they're going to leave DRM up to some company called EA, I like that idea.

/both consoles suck with DRM hopefully any new restrictions won't survive First Sale doctrine, or no one buys the new stuff.

FitzShivering:BumpInTheNight: Andyr2120: but the One is a hell of a lot more innovative than the PS3.75.

Go home mouth of Sauron, you're drunk.

Hah. I'm stealing that.

All good, its just a continuation of my Microsoft is Sauron line of comparisons. We've got:Eye of Sauron: Living room editionRidiculous idiots still claiming to crave the One RROD, how precious.Redmond / Mount Doom? Coincidence? I think not.It takes great evil to make even Sonyman's consumer practices look open and well intentioned.

I mean, this is Fark and all, but if the crux of your response to someones points is that they must be paid shills, you have lost the argument. The closes thing I know unequivocally to being a shill is Paul Thurrott and he gave a pretty scathing critique (with what MS should do) in his column.

I see a lot of XBONEs under millions of X'mas trees this year. Why? because gradnparents and 12 yr old kids don't know and don't care about DRM, Kinect, always on etc.To them it's more about buying into the marketing hype and the games they can play on XBONE. Also peer pressure because most of their buddies have XBONEs as well,

I'm just an average gamer. I think people are being too harsh on Microsoft's X-Box One. I was utterly blown away with the footage revealed at E3. Microsoft has proven they are taking gaming into a whole new generation. I wouldn't want to buy that other system, unless you want to be left in the digital dust. I will be purchasing two Microsoft's X-Box One systems, and will recommend it to all my friends. I encourage you to do the same.

Elegy:BullBearMS: Elegy: Software structure and GUI response time make a big difference in the end user experience. Do try to keep up.

Paid Microsoft shill like typing detected.

XBone's hardware is a full third less powerful when it comes to graphics than the PS4.

That's just a fact, no matter how you try to spin it.

Costs more. Does less.

I love the fact that anyone who actually prefers the 360 to PC gaming or a PS3 MUST be a paid shill.

I own both a PS3 and a 360. Despite the PS3 having more computing power its marginally better graphics, the experience of using the machine is vastly slower than the 360.

So yes, the PS3 is "faster" than the 360 - hence the better graphics. But the ultimate experience is that I have to sit around and wait on the PS3 to load the game, or the next level, for minutes at a time, to realize that "faster" capability. It is vastly frustrating, the 360 by far is a much faster, smoother experience, despite the lower quality of graphics.

If you really don't understand that raw numbers do not necessarily mean a faster, less frustrating experience on the user's end, then you must not know much about computers.

Wait, those people actually exist? There are people who like paying more for games, getting less and not being able to download mods? Is there a large masochist gaming community where you live? Around here anyone who builds a gaming PC admits it is better in about 2 days.

Question for any Kinect users here. Do you guys mount the unit on top of the 360, or do you place it in an optimal position for what it's supposed to do? It seems that integrating the Kinect with the console, may force people to either place the One in an open area of their entertainment center. What happens if you don't have a kinect, nor the optimal room for it to work? Although that last question would be more towards movement based games.

Nefarious:Well here is the latest copy of this thread.Now I hate the required check in but where have people gotten the idea that if your x-box fails to check in the system will not return to normal functioning after an internet connection is restored? Does anyone have a citation to that or is it just exaggeration that has become "truth". I'll probably end up with both eventually unless XBone goes the way of the Dreamcast.

/MS is going in the direction gaming seems irrevocably headed towards. We may not like it but we may not be able to stop the slide towards digital and licenses. It's what the developers want in their heart of hearts (Saying so may not be the best public relations at the moment) Hopefully MS will compromise with a potential alternate check on a disc and as long as you have the disc in the drive it will work.../in 2002 broadband was in 12% of US homes... but Microsoft built a service that required it anyway.

You can change the direction gaming is going so very easily, you must be functionally retarded to not have noticed. You've been given a ballot, now cast it. Either you vote for DRM, monitoring, and generally shiatty behavior, or you vote for the console that doesn't include any of that.

If the children screaming and crying about the various features and how horrible they are, actually DID NOT BUY the farking console, then GUESS WHAT? NEXT gen consoles won't have that stuff. It's shocking, I know, but that is actually how it works.

However, most of you children will buy it anyway. I'm not sure why exactly, but you will, and MS knows it. So yes, gaming (well, that shiat you guys call games) is sliding ever further into a black hole of garbage. Just like Television did, and radio, and movies. So basically, this industry makes money, and so now you have the leeches and MBA's trying to maximize that money. Yearly editions of games. Check. Subscription fees for services that have been FREE since before you were born, CHECK. Crippling DRM, the elimination of first sale doctrine, AND monitoring, CHECK.

farking stupid fan bois biatching and moaning while they count their dollars waiting for the day they can drop 600+ $ on a console they claim to "hate". Check.

Meanwhile, I'm over here with my computer, playing every good game in existence, on hardware I CONTROL, with software I OWN, with graphics FAR IN EXCESS of 1080p. Oh, and I can play all the really big games, that your console can't handle. Your console is a crippled children's toy, the fact that you don't even realize that is really rather amusing to those of us with real gaming machines.

You morons got sold a bill of goods, and you bought it so hard the hook is still in your mouth for the next bill of goods.

Nefarious:Now I hate the required check in but where have people gotten the idea that if your x-box fails to check in the system will not return to normal functioning after an internet connection is restored?

So far you're the only person I've seen make the claim that people are making that claim. The only issue the article mentions is "consumer concerns over mandatory connectivity checks," which is quite different from how you're framing it.

I mean, this is Fark and all, but if the crux of your response to someones points is that they must be paid shills, you have lost the argument. The closes thing I know unequivocally to being a shill is Paul Thurrott and he gave a pretty scathing critique (with what MS should do) in his column.

SuperNinjaToad:I see a lot of XBONEs under millions of X'mas trees this year. Why? because gradnparents and 12 yr old kids don't know and don't care about DRM, Kinect, always on etc.To them it's more about buying into the marketing hype and the games they can play on XBONE. Also peer pressure because most of their buddies have XBONEs as well,

It would be the only thing under the tree. Average christmas spending for entire families is about the cost of an xbox one and two games.

SuperNinjaToad:I see a lot of XBONEs under millions of X'mas trees this year. Why? because gradnparents and 12 yr old kids don't know and don't care about DRM, Kinect, always on etc.To them it's more about buying into the marketing hype and the games they can play on XBONE. Also peer pressure because most of their buddies have XBONEs as well,

Your vision of Christmas is deeply clouded. You are right that Grandparents don't know or care about DRM. However, they do care about two things: What their kids are screaming for, and what the price is. Gaming kids are not going to be screaming for an XBONE. And what few there are that do? Grandparents will see the extra $100 and go "Meh, Timmy can deal with this Pee Ess Four-thingy."

DrunkenIrishOD:Whew glad Sony is making sure that we don't have to worry to much about drm at all! Hold on I'm having a problem with the SONY BMG CD does anybody know how to uninstall a rootkit. Oh I also got some mail from a credit company notifying me that my credit card info got stolen? Oh well hey a Sony VP is having a press release clearing up some things about DRM on the console, sounds like they're going to leave DRM up to some company called EA, I like that idea.

/both consoles suck with DRM hopefully any new restrictions won't survive First Sale doctrine, or no one buys the new stuff.

Here's the bottom line. MS is making DRM mandatory, online mandatory, and used gaming restrictions mandatory. Sony is making all of those up to the publisher, and some are impossible.

So guess who I like more now? Every console company has done horrible things to their customers at one point. Assuming Microsoft hasn't done any high level dickery like Sony's done shows just how biased or stupid you are.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who will claim to love Origin.

Yup, orifice was the tipping point for me to avoid EA titles that are exclusive upon it and so far that's been proven several times now as a good policy.

Seriously, Steam, Amazong and sorta Gamefly are at least attempting to be independent of the publishers and offer wide variety of content, Origin is just EA's avarice in a crashy app form factor that sits on your desktop scanning your C drive for no good reason. Its no better then U(FIA)play from Ubisoft (which thank god they've claimed they're backing away from). Its like HBO's streaming service: Tits on a bull because the content maker is full of themself and won't give the consumer what we actually really want.

I like knowing that there's separation between the content provider and the content creator, no one particular entity should have such indiscriminate power over my entertainment options.

/still kinda annoyed that when gamefly ate direct2drive they didn't retain all the licenses and thus some of my games bought from D2D still aren't available//ah well, lesson learnt and basically I don't see anyone capable of eating steam.