Female posters incapable of original thought?

That was neither the purpose nor the topic of the thread, as I'm sure you are well aware. What I have to wonder is if you disapprove of the the
thread topic so much, why are you keeping it alive by nit-picking about the title and the imaginary purpose you've come up with?

Imaginary purposes = Original thought ?

Its not nit picking, it's genuine 'what comes into my mind' when i'm reading the posts. Its spontaneous communication, a bit like i do when i'm
talking to people, it's hard to do on forums, i find it more personal and honest.

Of course i'm aware that the thread was not meant to do anything other than to re-affirm that females are just as worthy as males, even if there is a
minority that wont accept it.

I find it funny that the most obvious differences are between individuals rather than 'groups' and the whole issue with humans in the first place is
this personal sense of being an individual (rather than a member of a group/gender/race etc). Thats why i'm following the thread too, i dont
disapprove, i find the subject of what sets humans apart from the rest of nature and how we view ourselves and create stereotypes and mental molds for
our experiences to be one of the most interesting subjects there is.

I think there are some genetic reasons for viewing the opposite sex differently

but i also think that memes and our experience of conciousness is
worth tackling from lots of different angles.

Originally posted by Jenna
Over the years since I first joined ATS, something has been bothering me. There seems to be a persistent belief that women are somehow incapable of
understanding some issues or that they should essentially know their place. This isn’t an opinion voiced by all male posters, nor is it my intention
to imply such a thing, but it has been voiced on occasion and it typically shows up in the middle of an otherwise civil discussion. What I’d like to
understand is why this view is held at all. How did it come about? Why, in this day and age, is it still held at all?

I’ve never considered myself to be much of a feminist, though I suppose this thread would indicate otherwise. I don’t believe that women are
oppressed (not any more anyway), that we are victimized or exploited by men daily, or that women are in any way the superior sex. Nor do I believe
that we should need to prove ourselves anymore than a man does in order to be taken seriously. I’m not out to demonize all men or call them all
sexist pigs, though I’m sure someone will inevitably post without fully reading what I’m saying and claim that I am. In my mind, gender is not an
indication of intelligence or worth and no one gender has a monopoly on either. Men and women are equal, different but equal. But I digress, back to
the topic at hand.

Literature, mythology, and folklore from virtually every part of the globe contains tales of women who were fierce in battle, leaders of armies,
revered leaders of their people, heroines, goddesses of war, etc. Women were not always seen as weak, helpless, and incapable of intelligent thought.
This seems to be a relatively new development in the history of mankind. One that I find irritating in general, but significantly more so on a website
such as this where we all come to discuss and learn.

As much as I’d like to do otherwise, I’ll refrain from providing direct quotes to avoid pointing fingers at any one poster. The comments that
I’m referring to either flat out state or infer that:

Women are incapable of understanding an issue so complex as the one being discussed;

They should stick to neutral topics where they will be better capable of contributing;

Men in a group will each speak their own mind, women in a group will just develop mind-think and agree with the majority because they have no
individual opinions;

Women cannot have an independent/rational/correct thought without first having it explained to them by a man;

Claims of sexism are unfounded because women irrationally believe that everything is a conspiracy against them.

That’s to say nothing of the rest of the sexist comments one can find here with a quick google search. My focus for this thread though isn’t
sexism in general, but the mistaken belief that being female makes someone incapable of original thought and/or incapable of understanding a topic put
forth for discussion. What is it that has caused some posters to believe that's true? More importantly, why is it brought up mid-discussion in an
attempt to invalidate and demean female posters for doing nothing more than discussing the topic at hand?

i share your view only being new here myself i have come across sexist comments on other sites before (most were in jest as i do go on many forums
that are of a more laid back yet fundamentally open-minded.) i do find that women in general are taken less seriously for the most part. however some
of if not most of my closest friends are women/ girls and are often allot more intelligent than myself and i have no problem admitting this. however
allot of people are brought up thinking that they are worth more than you and that men are better than women. sadly allot of these people are then
allowed to scream there narrow sited and self-centered hate wherever and whenever they can. often women don't even get taken seriously because of
music like and film and how they are portrade in them.

Some men may just be afraid of a woman getting the better of them, in a intellectual debate, so they end up going onto the offensive.

For example…

A discussion starts…a woman brings ideas into play, that the guy never considered before… sensing defeat lol he lashes out with the classic
phrases “you are incapable of understanding this woman” and “stick to neutral topics and leave the complex stuff to us men”. Followed by high
tailing it, outa there and wiping the sweat from his brow, he mutters to himself “phew, that was close”. With the conversation now over and pride
intact, he lives to fight another day.

Originally posted by Wobbly Anomaly
Of course i'm aware that the thread was not meant to do anything other than to re-affirm that females are just as worthy as males, even if there is a
minority that wont accept it.

Actually it was intended to open up a discussion about where the belief that women are less intelligent than men came from and why it's still held
today.

Thats why i'm following the thread too, i dont disapprove, i find the subject of what sets humans apart from the rest of nature and how we
view ourselves and create stereotypes and mental molds for our experiences to be one of the most interesting subjects there is.

My apologies for mistakenly believing that was what you were getting at then. And I agree, the topic of what sets us apart from the animals is
fascinating. There aren't nearly as many differences as some people would like to believe.

You know it might be true abouth fine hair or it could be they shave more often, since men dont regularly do the finer smaller hair just hasent had
time to grow its in a state of constantly being removed. But still if you take a female and male and dont let them shave for a couple of months to a
year who will have more hair.

The female will have more hair....because they have more hair.

joecroft,

Some men may just be afraid of a woman getting the better of them, in a intellectual debate, so they end up going onto the offensive.

I don't put alot of stock in intellectual debates..because they are just intellectual debates. To me what is intellectual and intelligent both is
what one does with the knowledge and experience they have. What do they create with it..not just debate.

That is one of the limits of a forum like this..it is limited pretty much to debate.

One thing I know about many women...what they think is intellectual and the moral ethical high ground is often their emotions. Their emotions often
are used to pass for what is right and correct. I don't happen to think this is correct ..but it is how many women think.

Now that many males are being feminised ....they too think that their emotions are what is right and correct. I am running into more and more of these
now days. How about you folks??

I've run into some women who use what they see and think to be creative...and I enjoy watching them produce goods and services with their thinking or
the fruit of their thinking.

I know a woman who had an idea and took a olde kids rocking horse and painted it nicely ..put a thick wooden pole through it..and mounted it on a
upside down wooden barrel half...and it looked just like a horse on one of those olde time carousels. It was really nice looking.

I recently saw a woman who was making a gift for a baby shower...it was a cake made from baby diapers...a layered cake..with nice ribbons holding them
together. It looked at first glance like a real cake. I would never have known it was rolled up baby diapers...if she had not told me. I never would
have thought of such a thing. And I certainly would not have ever considered such a concept. My mind does not naturally work in this arena.

Now she may be intelligent and innovative ..creative..but I know she will not be fixing her car or air conditioning or lawnmower Her intelligence and
innovation don't work well in this arena. She is frankly not interested in this arena...at all...not even motivated.

Now..you see..neither of us are intellectually discussing or debating in these arenas. We must do ..perform to reach desired goals.

These women ..just think and are goal oriented in different ways than myself and for different motivations.

Intelligence per se..is not totally it with me. It is what you do with this knowledge/intelligence.

How many smart "intelligent" peoples do many of you know who turned to alcohol and drugs and made train wrecks out of their lives and the lives of
people around them ..before they caught on and grew up..if they ever did??

I know lots of them..

I dont put alot of stock in intelligence per se. It is a heavy dose of character...or even common sense..not intelligence alone.
But that is just me.

I can't say I've noticed any sexism at all on ATS and I've been visiting for years. Could be that I haven't experienced it because most folk
think I'm a bloke anyway. If I changed my avatar to a pic of myself would I notice then? I think we do get more of what we focus on.

I am wary of coming over as unintelligent though, but that's not because I'm a woman that's just me in general. I envy folk their wordiness and
intellect and wish I could be like that. I have a bad memory and limited vocabulary and so when I have something to tell you lot, or something to
ask, I have to re-read over and over my message before I post, in case I get some clown picking up on my faux pas and he/she makes an arse of me,
because then I'm left speechless.

If there are any men on ATS who actually do say things like "shutup you're just a woman, you know nowt" then I think they're very rare. And I do
think women in general can be just as bad, if not worse, when it comes to putting folk down. That's what it's about you see, putting folk down to
make themselves look better. I think the differences between men and women is mostly skin deep.

Another site I read regularly is the Daily Mail and that includes the comments at the end of the news articles. They can be appalling, hateful and
evil and they're mostly written by women, about women. In fact, I think back in the old days when men had a lot of wars, (yes I know they still
do) I think even though the women stayed at home they did go to a lot of hangings and contributed in the finger-pointing that resulting in
witch-burnings etc and they did sit in the front row with their knitting to enjoy the view and chat about who they were gonna put up there next.

Dont you feel bad about this. Many of us are in the same boat so to speak

I am wary of coming over as unintelligent though, but that's not because I'm a woman that's just me in general. I envy folk their
wordiness and intellect and wish I could be like that. I have a bad memory and limited vocabulary and so when I have something to tell you lot, or
something to ask, I have to re-read over and over my message before I post, in case I get some clown picking up on my faux pas and he/she makes an
arse of me, because then I'm left speechless.

I too have bad memory and even worse vocabulary and I've worked very hard to have the limited vocabulary for which I do currently possess.
It was some years on line before I even figured out how to use the spell check and I still often forget to use it.
I too must read and re read my postings.

However..do not lose alot of sleep over any responses to your postings. I often find that if I leave them alone a few days before responding...I do
much better at it.

Well written Jenna. I think my best answer to your question could come across hurtfully honest. So please all females beware beyond this point...

I think the reason many males may think such things are due to female emotions. Females can (on average) be more emotional than men. We can all
argue about the accuracy of my last sentence, but truthfully that is how the average person today perceives it.

Hi wobbly,
I'm not disagreeing with you. Merely pointing out the perception/stereotype of our society and how some might subconsciously play on it without even
realizing it. I don't even necessarily think that's what these (unspecified) males are doing. Merely throwing some food for thought out.

Without seeing the specific instances in which these things have occured, it's just all speculation. But my guess would be either A) Subconscious
stereotype or perhaps B) A minority of males who choose passive-aggressive insults rather than coherent discourse.

Without seeing the specific instances in which these things have occured, it's just all speculation. But my guess would be either A) Subconscious
stereotype or perhaps B) A minority of males who choose passive-aggressive insults rather than coherent discourse.

I think i agree......

One of the points i was making earlier is that the physical makeup of our brain coupled with archetypes and other 'internal architecture' is going
to create gender differences in the way we are able to think and how we generally use our brains. This is good (IMO) the value we give to certain
functions of the mind, intelligence, emotion, original thought is interesting. In the long terme evolution will sort through which of these is most
'useful' in the short term we shape who we are, to some degree, by the importance/value we put onto brain functions.

I think the reason many males may think such things are due to female emotions. Females can (on average) be more emotional than men.

I have to disagree, men are just as capable of original emotion as females

That is 100% true. It has been proven in studies (don't ask, psych experiments is all i know) that men feel emotion just as strongly as women, they
just have trouble expressing it. Why? Not because they physically don't know how to cry, but because we are brought up in a ludicrous and
psychologically destructive (for males anyway) culture that has the unwritten rule that 'boys don't cry'. That's why men are more violent
generally, because we all feel, and we all need a mechanism to express emotional pain, and if we can't cry, we will inevitably release that emotion
in some other way, whether it be drinking, or physical violence, drug abuse or suicide, or whatever else. Repressed emotions are so damaging which is
why there are no words to describe how stupid it is that males cannot cry without people making them feel weak. The truth is, because it is viewed as
sissy for a male to cry, it is actually extremely courageous to do so. Crying is the natural method that whoever created human beings bestowed on us,
so that when nothing else seems to work, we can always cry.

Little known fact? The tears that we produce when crying over emotional pain contain a substance that has a calming effect when the tears roll down
our cheeks and that substance is re-assimilated through the pores of our skin. Ever notice when you get hurt physically, you can cry and cry and the
pain just doesn't go away, but if you are crying over emotions, you do eventually feel better? In conclusion- never wipe your tears away, and cry
your heart out whenever you need to.

Although i don't think studies are really necessary to figure out that men are just as emotion driven beings, we are all human at the end of the day.

Jenna I'm new here so here goes I think most "men" Think like there fathers and grand fathers and so for back. Women have always been on the back
burner you could say. I have learned from my wife "who has a larger I.Q. then I" Is that we are afraid that if we as man give in and make you equal
you soon will control some big part of this world we coincide in. It's just some of us men think women think more with there hearts then with there
heads when bigger matters are on the table. If you had to fire on a country would you think about it or just do it. Me I think you are any women can
add to or give more to a conversation then most men. Women see more in detail of what is going on. I know your not saying all men are dumb, sexiest,
and controlling, but If you ever see me going that way on any post or replay I hope you call me out on it. You keep doing what your going and I'll
keep agreeing with you..lol..

What? In the United States Of America. Females have more rights or treated way better then men in many ways.

First off we are equal both can get an education and work the same jobs. Yet females at age 18 don't have to register for draft or become part of the
draft list. Yet men do by law.
Yet there is females in the military.

Another thing would be how cops deal with people. My sister one time drove 115mph on a expressway with cops chasing her and she had the radio loud
couldn't hear the police. They put a spike strip poped her tire and opened the door ready to throw my sister on the floor they thought it was a black
male that had a previous record. Yet when the cops saw it was my sister they started to laugh and had the helicopters and backup go back.
Plus my dad didn't care much about the damages she didn't get grounded or anything but got a lecture to not do it again.

yet if this was me being a male. The cops would of tossed me on the ground beat the heck out of me and then taken me to jail for the night. I would
get grounded by my dad and would have to work the damage off.

So in my opinion I doubt females equal males. It's more like Females are higher better treated then men are.

When I say this I don't mean every female is treated right there is males still out their that are retarded and beat up females. I am just saying in
general speaking according on the laws are allied.

I mom was able to get out of a ticket but yet my dad never was able to get out of a ticket and if he tried he would get another ticket or the cop
would really get upset.

I can go on with many examples. I think today generally speaking that females have more rights and are treated better then men in todays U.S.

I also keep hearing on tv where female host would ask a question to a few men and a few women. When men get the answer right or wrong they would say
good job or that's right.... then when females get it wrong they say nice try and if they get it write they sometimes say oh that proves the lades
are smarter then the guys.
These questions would be just trivia like about celebs etc.

I have many more examples that would backup my statement but keep in mind I am generally speaking.

I would really REALLY love to be able to disagree with these points and protest against this, but unfortunately, the only woman i know who disproves
these things is my mum, and even she, when given a choice would rather not discuss deep topics because it means disturbing her view of the world being
perfect and happy and whatnot (i'm sure you all know what i mean) anyway- i think there is a flaw with these observations -

"women are incapable of understanding an issue so complex as the one being discussed;

Men in a group will each speak their own mind, women in a group will just develop mind-think and agree with the majority because they have no
individual opinions;

Women cannot have an independent/rational/correct thought without first having it explained to them by a man; "

First of all, in my experience, i wouldn't put this only on women, a huge amount of men i know are also very susceptible to group think and seem
incapable of independent thought, however, the difference seems to be that women *choose* to be ignorant, the dont want to think about these things,
they WANT to be ignorant, in a way, whereas men that are ignorant always seem to have become that way just throught not questioning what is given, but
always seem to have the potential of being woken up.

Where I come from, women really don't have much for original thought that I see. Most are followers and conformists, certainly not engaging
themselves in deeper conceptualization. I hear mostly mindless jibber-jabber about nothing. When they do conjure up a decent thought, it takes them
15,000 years to get to it... the men could have communicated it in a half of a statement. The women seem to be much less mature. The forty year-olds
are the twenty year-olds of yesteryear. You try and talk about common-sensical things and they just smile or retreat... the real "toughies" will
actually communicate back and agree. They aren't much for observation. So many wonder why I'm in my kayak and not a motor boat, or why I splash my
paddles around a pontoon boat full of fat chicks. Certainly, none are willing to stand up and do anything on their own.... there are simply no
stand-up girls here. They would rather cry, blame, and scrutinize at everything under the sun in the hopes that galactic alien gods will hear them.
Very few are into mind-expansion. Mental disorders abound. Most go after drunken, fat coworkers to mate. They haven't a clue how to flirt. They shun
any sign of a stand-up guy. I haven't read anything on this site, but I have the full expectation that I'm not going to get anything from a declared
female's post. I'm not living in Swaziland, I'm in Wisconsin, USA. This poster failed at taking a stab in answering her own questions directly
after asking them. This, to me, is of no surprise as nothing really is.

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