I think Indians are immature about their behaviour towards anyone who is different from them. For eg. Indians also stare at fat people or handicapped people. Of course, in India fair skin is given great importance and people keep on debating without any definite conclusions about where this has come from - European colonialism, Central Asian invasions or the supposed Aryan invasion.

But let's not forget how Indians are treated in many African and Carribean countries too where they are present. They are called "coolies" (from the British era word for porters/labourers) and there is much hatred for them.

alampuri

02-09-2007, 06:52 PM

Indians not a racist people, but its also true some interior(villages) and uneducated people having this mentality

rohit khaitan

02-09-2007, 08:57 PM

Nikster u should say "are u indians racist". and not "are we indians racist". Because u r not an indian. You are a second class indian who cares nothing for india and you are full of hatred for it.

You could not debate with me on racism in the other thread so u started a new thread to malign india.

Which other country has so much of caste, class and population diversity as in india???

In which country the president prime minster and the president of the ruling party from minority community?? (inspite of the fact that except for the president the other two are good for nothing)

In which country u can find people from all castes in ever state???

In which country minorities have more rights then the majority?

One attack in US and few bomb blasts in London. And muslim women cant wear a burqa there. Muslims are targeted and killed on streets.

We have been tolerating this for last 17 years. And still muslims live here more peacefully then in pakistan or afghanistan.

Indians are the future model of the world on how to tolerate each other inspite of differences and live peacefully.

You are racist. We indians are certainly not.

Nikster

02-10-2007, 02:17 AM

Woh Rohit, calm down there man. Our last exchange regarded casteism, not racism, and I thought it was very enlightening. I stopped because we seemed to be going over the same thing. I thought we had covered enough groud and I wanted the topic to move on. Didn't mean for you to hold such a grudge.

Also, thank you for proving to everyone how India is not racist by calling me a second class Indian. Go figure.

rohit khaitan

02-10-2007, 08:30 PM

I have no grudge for the previous post.

But when u say Are Indians racist. You mean 100 crore indians living here and not a few thousands who are actually racist.

And I call u a second class indian not because i am racist or believe in caste divisions . Infact i dont know what caste are you and do not care to know either.

You very well know why i call u a second class indian.

Agra

03-15-2007, 04:12 PM

The UN Convention on the Elimination of Racism defines caste oppression as racism. Seen in this light, India might be called racist. India government strongly rejects this definition, though.

rohit khaitan

03-15-2007, 10:09 PM

oh really agra. And what do u know about india to support u r claim???

How can u say that there is caste opression in india? And which indian govt official rejected this definition on UN???

Agra

03-16-2007, 04:52 AM

oh really agra. And what do u know about india to support u r claim???
How can u say that there is caste opression in india? And which indian govt official rejected this definition on UN???

"Caste oppression" may be a bit strong. How about "caste discrimination"? Do you agree that there is discrimination against scheduled castes such as Dalits in India?

Although the International Convention on the Elimination of All forms of Racial Discrimination is about racial discrimination, the scope of the convention goes beyond that to cover discriminations based on descent, language, culture etc. Naturally discrimination based on caste is considered racial discrimination, hence the conclusion that India is a racist country. :mad:

It is the Indian government composed of numerous petty officials that is denying that definition. Pls take a look at Paras 15 and 16 at this link:
http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/(Symbol)/8e0a0465035607e0c12572600045d6f5?Opendocument

15. The Committee in its concluding observations had asked the Government of India to submit information on a number of issues pertaining to Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes.
16. In this context the Government of India reiterates its position that ‘caste’ cannot be equated with ‘race’ or covered under ‘descent’ under Article 1 of the Convention.

Most of the recommentions made by the CERD Comittee following the review of India report were about caste problems.

So India government is faced with a stone wall in selling its argument that Caste discriminiation is not racial discrimination.

Hope the above info is useful to you.

miqsh

03-16-2007, 06:16 AM

i agree with agra partially. there are certain people in india who have been discriminated for unreasonable reasons. but this has been 'claimed' to have been abolished which i believe is not completely true in reality.

rohit khaitan

03-18-2007, 03:32 AM

Discrimination is discrimination whether its based on skin colour as in many european countries, USA and china. Or be it based on caste religion etc etc.

Agra first of all ur link is not working.

Secondly when u say that dalits and scheduled castes in india are discriminated against you should check ur data twice. Besides lots of lies has been said on the matter. There is a thread in this forum called "inter caste marriages" where in nikster and I had a thorough debate on the topic. May be u can read that and come back if have any more doubts on the subject.

Neo

03-18-2007, 06:16 PM

For people not born in India and talking about caste system, here's a thought- it's like me talking about chinese civil war. the fact that chinese fought amongst themselves so many times and still are two nations conveys something to me. It says chinese are not civilised and can't live peacefully with their own brothers!
how does that sound to you Agra?
Caste system in india is a social problem, much like the female foeticide in china. it has nothing to do with race. all indians, fair skinned, dark skinned, high caste, SC and dalits are the same in the eyes of law and except in rare instances their rights are well protected.
the only argument west keeps ringing against casteism is that inter caste marriages are taboo.
Well if we look at the percentage of interracial marriages in any nation of this world, it would be small. The last thing india needs is a lecture on marriages from pint size countries like france, uk or germany who are smaller than some states of india and the only cultural and social difference that they know of is hair and eye color in their population. and still germans marry germans, french marry french and worse still for a good part of last century they hated each other.
why then its such a big deal that people from a state in india marry generally in the same state!
all this is nothin but west's hypocrisy. After ruining Asia for close to 3 centuries, now they are giving wise opinions from the cozy bedrooms formed from the looted money of the colonies.

India1989

03-19-2007, 12:51 AM

ok people lots of discussions going on in here. Let me tell you onething. Maybe many people in India are kind of discrimnatory. It happens. When people of 450 different languages and 2000 different ethnic groups and 10 different racial groups and freaking 30 different religions it is very hard to stay without any comments on any groups.

But look at India, so much diversity without any immigration. India's way more diverse then US.

Like common people if we don't make fun of a certain group then what's the fun in living. I have fun dissing some groups while at the same time its sometimes nice to hear jokes about my community.

Like take jokes lightly. We are friends and from the same country so we can have some fun. Like common friends have fight and make fun of each other and it doesn't mean we are racist or hate each other.

It's just that these things happen. So yeah we shouldn't give a damn about what other countries say about us.

about white people, we don't look upto them, neither we want to be like them.

Many people in India are whiter then them, which includes Pathans, Paharis, Kashmiris, people of Himachal Pradesh and Portuguese Indians and Greek Indians and many more.

We have all colours. so yeah we don't want to imitate other countries.

india can be called a world where every race and every type of living things coexist peacefully in harmony.

Agra

03-19-2007, 04:38 AM

For people not born in India and talking about caste system, here's a thought- it's like me talking about chinese civil war. the fact that chinese fought amongst themselves so many times and still are two nations conveys something to me. It says chinese are not civilised and can't live peacefully with their own brothers!
how does that sound to you Agra?
Caste system in india is a social problem, much like the female foeticide in china. it has nothing to do with race. all indians, fair skinned, dark skinned, high caste, SC and dalits are the same in the eyes of law and except in rare instances their rights are well protected.
the only argument west keeps ringing against casteism is that inter caste marriages are taboo.
Well if we look at the percentage of interracial marriages in any nation of this world, it would be small. The last thing india needs is a lecture on marriages from pint size countries like france, uk or germany who are smaller than some states of india and the only cultural and social difference that they know of is hair and eye color in their population. and still germans marry germans, french marry french and worse still for a good part of last century they hated each other.
why then its such a big deal that people from a state in india marry generally in the same state!
all this is nothin but west's hypocrisy. After ruining Asia for close to 3 centuries, now they are giving wise opinions from the cozy bedrooms formed from the looted money of the colonies.

Neo, you are in that mood again. Yes, Parkis and Indians used to be brothers under one roof, so what became of them? Killing each other, separated. Would you say Indians are uncivilized? No point in such childish game.

For all the tea in India and in the world, the UN is not buying Indian government's argument on the issue of Dalits.
The link may be temorarily down. Try search "issues pertaining to Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes" on Google and you will find a return on United Nations Press Release.

The modern story of ants and grasshoppers says a lot of the popular attitude. You will need to try harder to convince the UN.

Neo

03-19-2007, 07:34 AM

Neo, you are in that mood again. Yes, Parkis and Indians used to be brothers under one roof, so what became of them? Killing each other, separated. Would you say Indians are uncivilized? No point in such childish game.

For all the tea in India and in the world, the UN is not buying Indian government's argument on the issue of Dalits.
The link may be temorarily down. Try search "issues pertaining to Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes" on Google and you will find a return on United Nations Press Release.

The modern story of ants and grasshoppers says a lot of the popular attitude. You will need to try harder to convince the UN.

religion separates india and pakistan. what separates china and taiwan? and what have the chinese faught so many civil wars over? as i said, me talking about chinese civil war will make u jump like a frog on an electrode :) but at the same time you and others foreigners are free in their "wisdom" about dalits and caste system...

india doesn't need to convince anyone. do u think china needs to convince UN about its human rights record? i know, another stinging question but then as i said people generally don't like to see mirror.

the modern story of ants and grasshoppers will hop straight over ur head because u have no idea of whats being discussed. it has been 60 years since independence and the so called dalits and SCs that outsiders are so "caring" about have benefited a lot during this time due to some reservation policy which at the time of independence was supposed to end after 20 years. The politics of votes has prevented that for decades and the discussion was meant to portray that feeling.
after all if we continue to take away jobs and education from those who deserve it based on merit, we would end up being communists! we just want to be socialist so that talk of ants and grasshoppers would make real sense to people who are born in this country. and rest assured, we will argue, we will debate and we will protest because thats what democracy is all about but despite all this ants and grasshoppers will thrive together, they will not kill each other in a civil war - have never done so.

rohit khaitan

03-19-2007, 01:26 PM

Agra Neo has said everything i wanted to say.

And as for UN reports we care as much for UN reports as China or the rest of the world does.

How unbiased and democractic United Nations Organisation is in the hands of Americans is well known to the world.

Agra

03-19-2007, 02:38 PM

In other words, the mention of discrimination against Dalits will make you guys jump like a frog. (Sorry, Megri, it is a dirty word, but borrowed from Neo.)

rohit khaitan

03-19-2007, 03:17 PM

Whos jumping? We r ready to discuss the topic.

Give ur data. Support ur claim and let the truth prevail. Just because u and ur so called chinese freinds repeat the same line a hundred times a day does not mean we will accept it.

observer

03-19-2007, 11:39 PM

I don't see why the UN should call India racist. First of all it's not conclusively proven that various castes in India have different descents, different culture or different skin colour etc. Secondly India officially, from the government's side, goes all out to provide preferential treatment to those of so called lower castes, providing them reservation in jobs, education etc. There is no official discrimination against anyone. So India is not racist like apartheid era South Africa even by that definition. But if caste prejudices exist in the society then prejudices exist in many countries- they exist in the US between whites and black- then why isn't the US termed a racist country too?

I don't see any way feelings of equality will be fostered among Indians by dragging such issues to international fora when consistent and great efforts have always been made by the govt. in India for the redressal of the same.

Neo

03-19-2007, 11:53 PM

Agra -there's a difference between discussing things and being judgemental. when u say the efforts of indian government to convince UN have failed u sound judgemental. we on the other hand are ready to discuss things openly. my example of chinese civil war was not meant to provoke you but u did get provoked. why? because you thought i was being judgemental i guess. all i have to say, as an outsider i will not understand why china has had a history of civil wars unless u explain it to me and similarly u as an outsider will not understand caste system unless we indians explain it to you. the choice is urs. u can go by what UN says about caste system or if u r interested genuinely then engage in creative discussion. don't make sweeping remarks like u guys generally do. if we start going by UN's views about china's human rights then we could make some very caustic remarks about china too, isn't it? and i m sure after that you will say, don't go by what the west says about human rights in china, come and see for urself. don't u think this is hypocrisy on your part??

p.s.- jumping like a frog was not meant to be offensive. i don't know if frog is considered a "dirty" animal in chinese culture or what. i used it just as a comic expression.

Agra

03-20-2007, 05:13 AM

Agra -there's a difference between discussing things and being judgemental. when u say the efforts of indian government to convince UN have failed u sound judgemental. we on the other hand are ready to discuss things openly. my example of chinese civil war was not meant to provoke you but u did get provoked. why? because you thought i was being judgemental i guess. all i have to say, as an outsider i will not understand why china has had a history of civil wars unless u explain it to me and similarly u as an outsider will not understand caste system unless we indians explain it to you. the choice is urs. u can go by what UN says about caste system or if u r interested genuinely then engage in creative discussion. don't make sweeping remarks like u guys generally do. if we start going by UN's views about china's human rights then we could make some very caustic remarks about china too, isn't it? and i m sure after that you will say, don't go by what the west says about human rights in china, come and see for urself. don't u think this is hypocrisy on your part??

p.s.- jumping like a frog was not meant to be offensive. i don't know if frog is considered a "dirty" animal in chinese culture or what. i used it just as a comic expression.

Neo, I see now why you acted so nervously. I pointed out the failure of Indian government to convince the UN on the practice of caste system and you considered it judgemental, hence the wrath and stinging attack of Neo on China. :p You are overdoing it.

For your info, UN does not say openly, but implies, that India is racist due to its caste system.

However, UN never implies that China is a racist country, despite its civil wars and bad human rights record by western standard you love to harp on. No need to discredit UN on that account. Neo's wrath again? ;)

Whenever Neo hears some comment unpleasing to his ears about India, Neo will instinctively jump like a frog on an electronode (to borrow your words again) and try to get even by citing sth negative about China regardless of the topic being discussed. Cute. Blind nationalism or inferiority complex? or both?

India is a shining model of democracy that puts China to shame, as Neo would like to think. So pls face the fact squarely rather than be so jumpy.

You can start a new (caustic) thread about China's human rights situation if you are really interested. The current thread, however, is about Indian being racist or not.

I have no intention to mock Indian people. But there are smart people like Neo with split personalities who are ready to go very low to settle scores.

The exchanges with you guys have been informative.

-------------------------
P.S.
Frog on an electodode? It read offensive to me. Good to know that you did not mean it.

Neo

03-20-2007, 06:31 AM

anyone who will read my first post and then urs will make his judgement as to who was on the electrode :) anyways thats not something new for me . by now i have seen that chinese do tend to carry the mirror facing others all the time.
if u saw what i said there, it says i should not judge chinese ppl as uncivilised going by their record of civil wars...i did not say they were uncivilised...thats what u assumed.
as i said the mere idea of talk about china's human rights record is a western standard for you, that merely proves my point about ur double standards.
this is not about indians being racist or not. this is a wrong title for the thread. the guy who started the thread has no idea of what racism is and what caste is. and the posts by me and rohit and observer are an attempt to open the eyes of those who wear sunglasses in a dark room :)
of course i could start a thread on china's human right record but to be frank i am not interested in china to say the least. that's the reason why i am not on a chinese forum u see :)

rohit khaitan

03-20-2007, 12:55 PM

Agra its times to show u some mirror.

Here s a link and some extracts from the link.

http://tibet.dharmakara.net/ictracism.html

Moreover, the attitude in China toward religion in Tibetan culture constitutes a type of discrimination that has been recognized by the UN Committee to Eliminate Racial Discrimination.

Conclusions and Recommendations
China has a demonstrably good record in opposing racism in some of its international forms and for opposing apartheid in South Africa long before many other governments, including the government of the United States. But domestically, China lags far behind much of the world in acknowledging and addressing racism. Rather than allowing open debate about racism, China rigorously suppresses such discourse, setting back progress in the fight against racism.

:) What do u have to say to this???

I am sure u will agree to all this since u believe in what UN reports and white media has to say.

(And i am giving u a link and not expecting u to search for it on google. Ask me if you want more. I have a stock pile of it if ur intererested)

Agra

03-20-2007, 04:24 PM

Agra its times to show u some mirror.
Conclusions and Recommendations
China has a demonstrably good record in opposing racism in some of its international forms and for opposing apartheid in South Africa long before many other governments, including the government of the United States. But domestically, China lags far behind much of the world in acknowledging and addressing racism. Rather than allowing open debate about racism, China rigorously suppresses such discourse, setting back progress in the fight against racism.

:) What do u have to say to this???

I am sure u will agree to all this since u believe in what UN reports and white media has to say.

(And i am giving u a link and not expecting u to search for it on google. Ask me if you want more. I have a stock pile of it if ur intererested)

Speechless? no. :)

I see a racist spectre in your mirror.

Comments:

1. Your post could better be placed in a new thread on China entitled, say, China, a racist country like India?. The fact that your mirror on China is posted in a thread about indians being racist shows that you have no better way to defend your treasured caste system in India.

2. Your link points to an NGO site critical of China. This is typical of NGOs fond of pulling legs of the governmets. I am sure there are many more sites like this. China is used to critism and is improving thanks to it. But not much progress is seen in the lot of Dalits in India.

One more source: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/03/12/india15469.htm
Dalit groups held noisy demonstrations in Durban during World Conference on Racism. Their slogan Caste discrimination is Racsim was seen right at the entrance to the conference venue. There are many sites advocating Dalits rights.

if u saw what i said there, it says i should not judge chinese ppl as uncivilised going by their record of civil wars...i did not say they were uncivilised...thats what u assumed.
You did say it, although not exact wording. Smart Neo may have faulty memory sometimes.
It says chinese are not civilised and can't live peacefully with their own brothers!

the guy who started the thread has no idea of what racism is and what caste is.
You are being judgemental.

Given the attacks and attention I receive from all Indian fronts, I do not see any interest on the part of you guys, perhaps except the starter, in pursuring the otherwise interesting topic of whether Indians are racist or not.

rohit khaitan

03-20-2007, 09:36 PM

Speechless? no. :)

I see a racist spectre in your mirror. .

Illogical statement.Baseless.

Comments:

1. Your post could better be placed in a new thread on China entitled, say, China, a racist country like India?. The fact that your mirror on China is posted in a thread about indians being racist shows that you have no better way to defend your treasured caste system in India..

You should have the logic to understand that i am just trying to show how biased can media be. But u will not understand as expected. Because it take a neutral mind and common sense to understand things. My reply was absolutely relevant to the topic and an effort to show u the facts. But u have blind folded urself. If i should not talk about China in this thread then u should not talk about it either. Why are u trying to defend it?? May be u should start a new thread that How unracist China is unlike India. :)

2. Your link points to an NGO site critical of China. This is typical of NGOs fond of pulling legs of the governmets. I am sure there are many more sites like this. China is used to critism and is improving thanks to it. But not much progress is seen in the lot of Dalits in India.

..

Now u call this is a NGO site critical of China. But if a site publishes anything for india its always correct. :) I feel like laughing now. Man do u change ur opinion to suit ur purpose???

Dalit groups held noisy demonstrations in Durban during World Conference on Racism. Their slogan Caste discrimination is Racsim was seen right at the entrance to the conference venue. There are many sites advocating Dalits rights.

..

Dalits have more rights and previledges in India then any normal indian has. I can give u facts and figures if u r interested. So if someone stands outside a world conference and shout slogans that does not change the truth.

Now can u please elaborate on how dalits are being discriminated in India?? Lets discuss it or debate it.

Agra

03-21-2007, 01:06 AM

Now can u please elaborate on how dalits are being discriminated in India?? Lets discuss it or debate it.

Let's see how you would explain the following recommendations to Indian Government:

# Introduce mandatory training on the application of India’s Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act for police, judges and prosecutors, and take disciplinary measures against those who fail to implement this law.
# Ensure the protection of witnesses and victims to caste-based crimes and ensure their immediate access to effective remedies.
# Prosecute and punish perpetrators of sexual violence and sexual exploitation of Dalit women, and sanction anyone found preventing or discouraging victims from reporting such incidents, including public officials.
# Eradicate the social acceptance of caste-based discrimination through public education and awareness campaigns.
# Ensure equal access to health care, safe drinking water, and other public services.
# Investigate all alleged cases of discrimination against Dalits in post-tsunami relief and compensate or retroactively grant benefits to victims of such discrimination.
# Take effective measures to reduce dropout rates and increase enrollment rates among Dalits at all levels of schooling by providing scholarships and by ending classroom segregation.
# Ensure proper enforcement of reservations or quotas to counter the under-representation of Dalits and tribal communities in government and public services.
# Adopt measures to enhance Dalits’ access to the labor market, including by extending the reservation policy to the private sector.
# Repeal the Armed Forces Special Powers Act that, while providing the armed forces with widespread powers to search, arrest and shoot suspects, leading to allegations of human rights abuses, has immunity provisions under which troops cannot be prosecuted unless authorized by the Central Government.

Source: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/03/12/india15469.htm

On paper, Dalits have more rights and previledges in India than any normal indian. The reality is a different story. Do you agree, rohit khaitan?

Neo

03-21-2007, 07:46 AM

again, ignorance speaks from agra's words. on paper or otherwise dalits don't have more rights and privileges than "normal" indian. the constitution of india provides equal fundamental rights and duties to every citizen of the country. but then how can u know that agra. instead of admitting that as an outsider u will not understand what the political social economic situation in my country is and instead of trying to understand that by listening to what indians on this forum have to say, u will keep citing obscure sites made by some pseudo intellectuals.

the constitution of india provides for reservation in jobs and educational institutions to some castes that will historically backward socially and economically. this is different from fundamental rights which is same for every indian.

do u know the demographic distribution of castes in india and the social political prowess of the dalits?
do u know that the so called lower castes that ur harping so much about are actually the ruling class in the majority of states in india?
do u know that our prime minister, president and CJ of the supreme court are all minority or so called dalits?
do u know our constitution was drafted under a dalit - B. R. Ambedkar?
do u know that the railway minister of india who was invited recently to lecture at harvard for his brilliant effort at transforming the indian railways is a backward caste?

if u don't know the above then well u should broaden ur knowledge base before sharing ur wisdom.
if u do and still talk like u do then well ur just biased.

as rohit pointed all, u chinese are selective in choosing what western media content to be considered "true" and what to be considered "propaganda". this kind of blind nationalism probably was last seen in nazi germany.

rohit khaitan

03-21-2007, 12:29 PM

Let's see how you would explain the following recommendations to Indian Governmen

Source: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/03/12/india15469.htm?

There is a political story attached to it as well Agra. Which u will fail to understand. I will try to explain it to u. Dalits and minorities form a very large voting bank for politicians in India. So political parties at times go out of the way to woo these voters. For eg. The Prime Minister of India recently said that muslims have the first right and claim to the resources of the country. Second day if he goes to a constituency where hindus of brahmins are in majority he will change his entire speech. You know how politicians are all over the world. (Now if u look at it neutrality or logically u will know what i mean)

All these statements are regularly issued by the govt to appease this section of the vote bank. If u read my story of ant and the grasshopper now u will understand what i meant when i quoted lalu yadav and arjun singh. etc. etc.

On paper, Dalits have more rights and previledges in India than any normal indian. The reality is a different story. Do you agree, rohit khaitan?

Its not just on paper. I will show u how.

In India every individual has the fundamental right to live with equality in all spheres of life. In case of any discrimination he/ she is free to approach the courts. Traditionally Indian society was divided by profession. It happens everywhere in teh world that a businessmans son most likely ends up being a businessman and doctors son becomes a doctor. So there was a whole community that developed over the years that practised menial jobs. Also due to low income and lack of education they did not have much choice and the rich exploited this situation as anywhere in the world.

(In todays india u will find a brahmin clerk and a dalit boss. And people working in the office will not even be aware that the clerk is brahmin or the boss is dalit. They will not even care. Its performance that matters not the caste.)

To uplift this section of the society, after independence we introduced a bill for special previledges to this section for their upliftment. Special reservations were given to them in educational institutions, in govt jobs. There was lower fares and education fees for them and host of other facillities. These previledges were meant to be in place till 1961.

In 1961 an amendment was made and the bill was extended for another term. Subsequently any govt or political party could not dare to remove these reservations becuase they feared the backlash of this community. Politicians want to stay in power at all costs. Now 50 years down the line the scene is that a very large section of these people are doing very well and are in top positions in the country. But the benefits of these previledges still goes to them.

However their is still a section whose needs remain to be addressed. But caste has nothing to do here. Its purely poor vs rich. Caste division is a myth and hoopla created by politicians and foreigners to suit their individual purposes.

I cannot sum it all up in one post. Keep asking for more. i will eleaborate.

Agra

03-21-2007, 05:10 PM

again, ignorance speaks from agra's words. on paper or otherwise dalits don't have more rights and privileges than "normal" indian.

Neo, you became so agitated as to challenge the obvious. Dalits do enjoy privileges specific to them on paper in India. If not, what is the reservation policy, then? :rolleyes:

rohit khaitan, thanks for your patient and clear explanation, esp about the political games.

I have a good understanding of India to reach my own conclusion on the topic, a conclusion which can only be revealed to discerning eyes. :D

Neo

03-22-2007, 03:29 AM

what u call obvious is actually ur assumption agra. now u smartly replaced rights with privileges...lolz...games that u guys play ...
btw reservation policy is not something on paper. there are millions of scheduled castes and dalits who are in government jobs and 40% of educational institutions including the best universities like IIT have reserved places filled every year by virtue of this reservation policy.
i don't know of any other "racist" country which has been putting this "privilege" "on paper" to action for more than half a century now.

i have nothing against you keeping your good understanding of India and conclusion to yourself agra :)
trouble comes when people open their mouth on public forums with wisdom spewed all over
we have a saying in india, till a crow opens it mouth, its hard to distinguish it from the cuckoo...:) i have no problem till the mouth of the crow remains shut...:D

rohit khaitan

03-22-2007, 02:37 PM

Agra you are free to have ur own opinion. I dont care either. But if u post ur opinion in a public forum its open to be challenged, criticized and analysed. (In a democracy it is so. I dont know if its allowed in China)

Either ur proove ur point of u simply shut up. :)

But if u go on repeating urself again and again without giving any solid reasons for why u think of something the way u think, then ur smart enough to imagine what people think of u.

Dalits have more rights and previledges in India then any normal indian has. I can give u facts and figures if u r interested.
Who is playing the word game?

btw reservation policy is not something on paper. there are millions of scheduled castes and dalits who are in government jobs and 40% of educational institutions including the best universities like IIT have reserved places filled every year by virtue of this reservation policy.
i don't know of any other "racist" country which has been putting this "privilege" "on paper" to action for more than half a century now.
Good for you.
Still I do not understand why the UN should keep raising Dalit issue whenever India government reports on its implementation of international converntions. Either the Dalits are ungrateful and hopeless or something else?

i have nothing against you keeping your good understanding of India and conclusion to yourself agra :)
trouble comes when people open their mouth on public forums with wisdom spewed all over
we have a saying in india, till a crow opens it mouth, its hard to distinguish it from the cuckoo...:) i have no problem till the mouth of the crow remains shut...:D

I want to share with you a Chinese saying: you can cook a duck soft, but never can you cook its beec soft.

Take it easy, boys.

Neo

03-23-2007, 05:43 PM

Still I do not understand why the UN should keep raising Dalit issue whenever India government reports on its implementation of international converntions. Either the Dalits are ungrateful and hopeless or something else?

really agra? but do u understand why BBC and the world media keep on reporting on ruthless supression of chinese farmers (see the other thread on farmers and SEZs) when according to you they are more prosperous than urban chinese? :) Either the farmers are ungrateful and hopeless or something else?

or should i understand that ur "understanding" is "selective" like the other chinese had on these forum? :D
oh boy, u guys all come in the same format don't u...lolz...wonder if bias is a taught as a subject in schools in china...

rohit khaitan

03-23-2007, 06:10 PM

Ha ha. Well said Neo. This man very conveniently changes his view point to suit his purpose. All websites, all reports against china are biased and all reports no matter how much truth or data we provide to show its false is correct if it shows india in a poor light.

Now even i have started thinking that they all come in the same format. :)

Their rules are simple ... dont be logical, dont argue, dont give us reasons. What we say is right and we dont want to listen to u.

Whether communism is better for a country or democracy is a controversial topic but for individuals its certainly democracy. Communism propably robs u of ur thinking ability.

India1989

03-24-2007, 05:11 AM

Rohit Khaitan you have lots of wrong facts with you.

First of all there are many groups who are quite often discriminated in India by some people and not by the government.

The government doesn't have enough time for discrimination as they are busy collecting money.

But yeah it is against law to discriminate in India.

Some groups who are mostly discriminated are Northeast Indians, Dalits (a lot), Negroid Indians, and people from scheduled casts.

rohit khaitan

03-24-2007, 01:26 PM

India 1989 i know what i am saying.

There are always some people in every country who are at a disadvantage vis a vis others and are exploited in one way or the other.

A social club in UK recently banned sikhs as a community to join their club. That was done by a city club and a direct attack on a whole community. School children who are hindus and sikhs are often beaten up in UK and US. Apartheid in south africa. Slave culture of the whites just 250 years back. Exploitation of tiawanese by the Chinese. How can they justify or explain it?

You dont live in fairyland that everything will be perfect. Nobodys saying that in india everything is perfect when it comes to racism.

But when u compare the incidents in India on a world scale we are far better when it comes to racism as compared to the rest of the world.

If a few thousand people are exploited in the name of religion or caste does not mean that a country of 1000 millions become racist. Besides we have laws in place and a no of occassions when their is reverse discrimination.

For eg. muslims are given special concession for going to haj in India. Are hindus given any such concessions for tirth yatra?? Also take the case of reservations. So many young boys and girls are taking fake SC/ST certificate to get admissions in college and universitites. Isnt this discrimnation??

So how can u say that the majority are targeting the minorities in India based on class/ colour or religion???

You guys read a few stories in new paper and declare a general statement. If u r dad drinks once in a month does that make him a drunkard??? of course not. Likewise a few stray incidents in a country with 17 percent of the world population does not make it racist.

Every sixth person in the world is an Indian. Do u think such a mammoth population can survive here if we were racist???

Neo

03-24-2007, 05:35 PM

Some groups who are mostly discriminated are Northeast Indians, Dalits (a lot), Negroid Indians, and people from scheduled casts.

can u give some examples India89? I would really like to know who discriminates against these people and how is this discrimination different from the discrimination faced by poor people in general irrespective of their region of origin or caste or race of origion.

The college I went to is a Regional Engineering College. I know that in my semester there were at least a 50 students from the northeast in various branches. Almost 40% were there based on some reservation policy- SC,ST,OBC and what not. I don't specifically know if some were dalits or not but i guess if nothing stops the SCs and STs to make it there, there could not be any excuse for dalits either. Except may be poverty that prevents even basic education. However, isn't that true of all castes that are poor?
Not all brahmins can afford an education, can they?

How does one define racism? I thought it was when a class of people denied opportunity and equal right to another class forcing them to live a decent life.
Who denies such opportunity to dalits or the other classes u referred to in india?
Can entire north india be considered discriminated against in south india considering the regional sentiments that have left a bias against north there?
The state of bihar which u ll admit is the most casteist is ruled by Nitish Kumar a SC himself. Before him was lallu and rabri "raj"-OBC. how can the lower caste there be called suppressed if they vote their own to power?
What about Mayawati, Mulayam Singh and all?
May be you base your arguments on the incidents that happen here and there. News about some dalits not being allowed entry in a temple in some village or the recent incident of a dalit woman being raped in mumbai and the subsequent carnage and rioting caused by protests.
But don't u think its the freedom and fair policy of this country that allows such reports to reach us? At the height of racism it was very easy to shoot a black guy in the US and no one would even bother to take a look.
If dalits feel discriminated because they are poor then i pity them because they can not expect some one to bring money to their door. they will have to study, make use of reservation policy and get a job. unless they do that, their social status will not improve.

India1989

03-26-2007, 11:12 AM

kk you guys, listen to me

rohit i am also not in fairyland that i will talk all nonsense.

I also know what I am saying. You think India is fairyland that everything is so fine.

Well if that's so what about the Sikh riot in which millions of sikhs were murdered, what about the gujarat riots, what about the killings of Kashmiri pandits, what about 1993 mumbai riots, what about the killing of biharis in Assam recently, what about the murdering of Dalits in Madhya pradesh and uttar pradesh.

like rohit you think that I am anti-Indian. Common India is not a perfect country, nor are we better then any other countries in the world. we gotta identify our problem and solve it.

you don't see any riots happening in US or UK. One thing you read in newspaper about sikhs not allowed in the club doens't mean that UK is more racist then us.

incidents like that happen everywhere in India.

now neo
about the northeastern people. When they go to NewDehli the people over there call them Chinese all though they are Indians and ask they to go back to China.

Recently 5 Norhteastern people committed suicide in New Delhi because of discrimination.

Then why do Northeastern India wants to become a separate country. Go to New Delhi and then go to Northeast, you will find a heck lotta difference. No developments in NE. Indian govt. has been ignoring them since 1947.

and ministers like Laloo never heard of Manipur forget rest of NE.

please read my post carefully before answering

Neo

03-26-2007, 06:22 PM

kk you guys, listen to me

rohit i am also not in fairyland that i will talk all nonsense.

I also know what I am saying. You think India is fairyland that everything is so fine.

Well if that's so what about the Sikh riot in which millions of sikhs were murdered, what about the gujarat riots, what about the killings of Kashmiri pandits, what about 1993 mumbai riots, what about the killing of biharis in Assam recently, what about the murdering of Dalits in Madhya pradesh and uttar pradesh.

like rohit you think that I am anti-Indian. Common India is not a perfect country, nor are we better then any other countries in the world. we gotta identify our problem and solve it.

you don't see any riots happening in US or UK. One thing you read in newspaper about sikhs not allowed in the club doens't mean that UK is more racist then us.

incidents like that happen everywhere in India.

now neo
about the northeastern people. When they go to NewDehli the people over there call them Chinese all though they are Indians and ask they to go back to China.

Recently 5 Norhteastern people committed suicide in New Delhi because of discrimination.

Then why do Northeastern India wants to become a separate country. Go to New Delhi and then go to Northeast, you will find a heck lotta difference. No developments in NE. Indian govt. has been ignoring them since 1947.

and ministers like Laloo never heard of Manipur forget rest of NE.

please read my post carefully before answering

india89...no one is denying that we don't have problems. what me and rohit were talking about is the misconception of the severity of caste system and its linking to racism by outsiders like agra who were adopting a biased approach with regard to reports by western media/agencies.

u have brought in a whole new issue and yes i agree this kind of discrimination does exist but to say that its only with regard to north east is not accurate. comeon, all of us have heard of all the south indians being labelled "madrasis" in the north and subject to ridicule because of the language and in reciprocity the intolerance of tamilans towards hindi speaking people.

if u go by such small divisions then it would appear the whole country is divided on some lines. but remember kargil war? the martyrs who died together came from all over india. north, south, north east (assam rifles and rajputana rifles fought bravely side by side)

regional differences and unity despite them- this is the essence of india. if u call it racism or consider it close then i think thats the over self critical nature of indians i am seeing in play.

Agra

03-26-2007, 09:41 PM

really agra? but do u understand why BBC and the world media keep on reporting on ruthless supression of chinese farmers (see the other thread on farmers and SEZs) when according to you they are more prosperous than urban chinese? :) Either the farmers are ungrateful and hopeless or something else?

or should i understand that ur "understanding" is "selective" like the other chinese had on these forum? :D
oh boy, u guys all come in the same format don't u...lolz...wonder if bias is a taught as a subject in schools in china...

Neo, I said farmers in some coastal areas in China are better off than urban dwellers. Is it an oversight or deliberate debating trick?

As to reporting of suppression of Chinese farmer, it is the price to pay for the economic development thru SEZ. China is a realistic country and knows what is good for its population. The SEZ polcy India is trying to implement vindicates what China has already done. Farmers are much better off on the whole than before and than their counterparts in India, if you like.

You guys are talking in your ivory tower in US or UK, which may mean nothing to those roaming the streets or wreched beings in remote areas in India.

As to media reports, I belive UN enjoys greater credibility in its assessment of countries. Althoug I do not believe that India governmet is responsible for social discrimination, you have to admit that discrimination based on caste etc does exist and is so serious as to attract international attention. Some real examples: http://www.indiabook.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=9156&highlight=eyes .

Discrimination on the ground of descent is racial discrimination.

If you think this is a biased way of looking at Dalit oppression, so be it.

The sophystry on the part of Neo and the likes will only fool themselves on racial disminication in India. :p

The discimination of Chinese farmers based on ecnomic status is fundamentally different from caste discrimination.

You are oversensitive to external comments.

More dirt of China bashing ?

Neo

03-27-2007, 04:19 AM

Neo, I said farmers in some coastal areas in China are better off than urban dwellers. Is it an oversight or deliberate debating trick?

As to reporting of suppression of Chinese farmer, it is the price to pay for the economic development thru SEZ. China is a realistic country and knows what is good for its population. The SEZ polcy India is trying to implement vindicates what China has already done. Farmers are much better off on the whole than before and than their counterparts in India, if you like.

You guys are talking in your ivory tower in US or UK, which may mean nothing to those roaming the streets or wreched beings in remote areas in India.

As to media reports, I belive UN enjoys greater credibility in its assessment of countries. Althoug I do not believe that India governmet is responsible for social discrimination, you have to admit that discrimination based on caste etc does exist and is so serious as to attract international attention. Some real examples: http://www.indiabook.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=9156&highlight=eyes .

Discrimination on the ground of descent is racial discrimination.

If you think this is a biased way of looking at Dalit oppression, so be it.

The sophystry on the part of Neo and the likes will only fool themselves on racial disminication in India. :p

The discimination of Chinese farmers based on ecnomic status is fundamentally different from caste discrimination.

You are oversensitive to external comments.

More dirt of China bashing ?

agra, you are either inclined to twist the context for the sake of argument or ignorant enough to not understand the context and subtelety of discussion at hand. in either case let me enlighten you.
i never compared casteism to the discrimination in china. the point i was making was in response to ur argument that how come dalits are protesting their state of affairs if the government of india is taking active interest in their upliftment.
i asked u a very valid question in return. how come the chinese farmers whose lot is so bright as per u, are protesting so much?
instead of giving a straightforward answer, you show how verbose you can be :D

and yes i am in US sitting in an ivory tower but i was not born here. i worked my way through 28 yrs of ground level education / experience in india and i understand the realities of my country at least a million times better than u sitting in another ivory tower and speaking from ur lil knowledge based on internet :)

i definitely agree that the UN is much credible an agency than BBC or CNN or wikepedia. so is amnesty internation if u will....look what they have to say about china...

http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/chn-summary-eng

"Repression of spiritual and religious groups

Members of unofficial spiritual or religious groups, including some Qi Gong groups and unregistered Christian groups, continued to be arbitrarily detained, tortured and ill-treated."

It is pretty clear to me that you belong to a country where the government is involved in institutionalised racism, discrimination and cultural genocide. in that context you preaching what racism means to india is laughable to say the least

if u consider this china bashing so be it. truth is bitter as they say :D

rohit khaitan

03-27-2007, 03:50 PM

By the way Agra u still didnt answer my one simple question.

How come all agencies and websites reporting castesim in India are credible. While all the agencies and websites reporting of racism in China biased and F**** @@#$#34 as u will put it.

Do u change ur opinion to suit your purpose??

Agra

03-28-2007, 12:04 AM

agra, you are either inclined to twist the context for the sake of argument or ignorant enough to not understand the context and subtelety of discussion at hand. in either case let me enlighten you.
i never compared casteism to the discrimination in china. the point i was making was in response to ur argument that how come dalits are protesting their state of affairs if the government of india is taking active interest in their upliftment.
i asked u a very valid question in return. how come the chinese farmers whose lot is so bright as per u, are protesting so much?
instead of giving a straightforward answer, you show how verbose you can be :D

and yes i am in US sitting in an ivory tower but i was not born here. i worked my way through 28 yrs of ground level education / experience in india and i understand the realities of my country at least a million times better than u sitting in another ivory tower and speaking from ur lil knowledge based on internet :)

i definitely agree that the UN is much credible an agency than BBC or CNN or wikepedia. so is amnesty internation if u will....look what they have to say about china...

http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/chn-summary-eng

"Repression of spiritual and religious groups

Members of unofficial spiritual or religious groups, including some Qi Gong groups and unregistered Christian groups, continued to be arbitrarily detained, tortured and ill-treated."

It is pretty clear to me that you belong to a country where the government is involved in institutionalised racism, discrimination and cultural genocide. in that context you preaching what racism means to india is laughable to say the least

if u consider this china bashing so be it. truth is bitter as they say :D

Neo, you are trying to deflect the focus away from the topic of indians being racist by making counter accusations against China. And do not pretend to enlighten others.

Whatever the problems China is suffering, eg farmers protesting, religious discrimination (?, I doubt it) do not change the fact that India is a racist society based on caste. Refer to the universal belief that discrimination based on descent constitutes racism. (Neo's Wrath is building up)

It is one thing to have high-sounding laws and beautiful policies, it is another to translate them into practice. What's worse, you are condescendingly admonishing those underpriviledged to get their own act right rather than blaming the popular prejudice and discrimination against them for their lot.

Caste discrimination is racism and is a disgrace to those hyporatic Indians who claim themselves the moral high ground. (Neo seeing red stars...)

By the way Agra u still didnt answer my one simple question.

How come all agencies and websites reporting castesim in India are credible. While all the agencies and websites reporting of racism in China biased and F**** @@#$#34 as u will put it.

I neither claimed nor believe that all agencies or websites reporting castesim in India or China are credible.

China is a totalitarian regime vis a vis India's democracy. It does not pretend to be morally superior to India. However, what a sham democracy India is where an entire classe is down trodden in practice if not in law. I feel sympathy for Dalits. It pains me to read atrocities comitted against them with impunity.

India can learn one thing or two from China by starting with SEZs, and should try to correct the impression that Indians only talk the walk but not walk the talk.

I can see Neo jumping and pounding at the keyboard.

More dirt, perhaps filth this time as Neo has no qualm in stooping very low... :p

rohit khaitan

03-28-2007, 12:42 AM

(Neo's Wrath is building up)
(Neo seeing red stars...)
I can see Neo jumping and pounding at the keyboard.

Hey man are u hallucinating. We dont know what neo is seeing but u have certainly started getting nightmares of Neo. Its a phenomenon that occurs during mental stress. A person starts seeing someone whos not present before him. I will advise you to see a psychiatrist. :) Its a genuine advise. No offence.

I neither claimed nor believe that all agencies or websites reporting castesim in India or China are credible.

Who are u kidding. You gave links of websites claiming indian to be a racist country. And according to you they were credible sources. And whenever we give u a link u say its a biased website. So answer my simple question. Do u change ur opinion to suit ur purpose??

China is a totalitarian regime vis a vis India's democracy. It does not pretend to be morally superior to India.

Ha. That was a joke of the year. You didnt accept that china is a racist country at all. And on the contrary we accepted that there are stray incidents of casteism in india here and there. So whos pretending to be morally superior .

However, what a sham democracy India is where an entire classe is down trodden in practice if not in law. I feel sympathy for Dalits. It pains me to read atrocities comitted against them with impunity.

You are repeating yourself again and again. Why dont u instead argue with facts and figures. Is there a rule in China that u cant argue logically??

India can learn one thing or two from China by starting with SEZs, and should try to correct the impression that Indians only talk the walk but not walk the talk.

Hey man. Sometimes u say why ru bringing china in the discussion. And again u go around defending China. Why ru trying to defend it then. Make up u r mind first. You want to discuss china or not in this topic.

To sum it up for u.

1) stop hallucinating. Neo is not there in front of u. And u cant see him. You need to realise this fact quickly.

2) Take a break for a while and think whether u change ur opinion to suit ur purpose or not.

3) When u claim yourself to be morally superior you do not blame others for it. So get ur facts right.

4) Make up ur mind whether u want to discuss only China or both India and China.

Hopefully we will get to know the answers of these simple questions from u in the next thread. Or will u again post a meaningless 200 words paragraph repeating yourself like a parrot without giving any logics??

Agra

03-28-2007, 04:39 AM

Who are u kidding. You gave links of websites claiming indian to be a racist country. And according to you they were credible sources. And whenever we give u a link u say its a biased website. So answer my simple question. Do u change ur opinion to suit ur purpose??
The UN link I gave about India's compliance with Convention against racism is a credible source. You overstretched yourself by claiming that ALL links are credible.

Ha. That was a joke of the year. You didnt accept that china is a racist country at all. And on the contrary we accepted that there are stray incidents of casteism in india here and there. So whos pretending to be morally superior .
You are being very modest by describing rampant caste discrimination, if not oppression, as stray incidents in India. [/quote]

You are repeating yourself again and again. Why dont u instead argue with facts and figures. Is there a rule in China that u cant argue logically??

I am still waiting for a convincing reply from you guys to the UN recommendations to Indian government on combating racism.

Hey man. Sometimes u say why ru bringing china in the discussion. And again u go around defending China. Why ru trying to defend it then. Make up u r mind first. You want to discuss china or not in this topic.

It is Neo who threw up dirt on China at the sight of my reply in disregard of the topic of the thread. Blame Neo for that. Let's focus on the topic of this thread: Are Indians racist?

To sum it up for u.

1) stop hallucinating. Neo is not there in front of u. And u cant see him. You need to realise this fact quickly.

2) Take a break for a while and think whether u change ur opinion to suit ur purpose or not.

3) When u claim yourself to be morally superior you do not blame others for it. So get ur facts right.

4) Make up ur mind whether u want to discuss only China or both India and China.

Hopefully we will get to know the answers of these simple questions from u in the next thread. Or will u again post a meaningless 200 words paragraph repeating yourself like a parrot without giving any logics??

Are you alright?

Neo

03-28-2007, 06:34 AM

first of all let me say that i am overly amused by agra's desperation...:D
during the entire conversation with anyone on this forum i never loose my cool but yes i do say truth and i say it without mincing words...if thats unbearable for u agra...its ur problem :)
ok enlightment time again..hehe...why did i bring china in the context....and once again a sincere request to agra to not only read but also comprehend....or at least ask doubt if in doubt...
i was merely pointing the fact that agra talking like a guru on the issue of casteism is like me talking about chinese civil war..to me chinese appear uncivilised coz of that...unless agra is willing to admit my point of view about china based on the reports i see in world media and reputable organisations...what right does he have to talk about casteism based on the "reputable" sources he has...

Neo

03-28-2007, 08:08 AM

The UN link I gave about India's compliance with Convention against racism is a credible source. You overstretched yourself by claiming that ALL links are credible.

:) agra u just sound like another chinese diplomat...when it comes to amnesty criticising china its overstretching when UN says something about india its credible...when UN is unable to pass a resolution against china because of china veto it still is a credible organisation...lolz..

You are being very modest by describing rampant caste discrimination, if not oppression, as stray incidents in India.
there are so many castes in india that u don't even know what is discrimination and what is social demarcation....well if 160 million dalits in india were really oppressed then i think i ll call china a bigot country till i see a tibetan as chinese president....because we already have a dalit as our president..
[/QUOTE]

I am still waiting for a convincing reply from you guys to the UN recommendations to Indian government on combating racism.

UR waiting in vain..india has rejected UN's "outsider" view of racism pushed by few western countries under the guilt of their own crimes...if we don't give a damn about what UN says where is the question of convincing u..? ur not even a guilt ridden country for what u did to tibet...(hard hitting answer i know but what can i do...i have a knack for stating rude facts...

It is Neo who threw up dirt on China at the sight of my reply in disregard of the topic of the thread. Blame Neo for that. Let's focus on the topic of this thread: Are Indians racist?

NO :D...if rohit, me, india89, observer who all are different castes, belong to different states possibly different religions together say NO and have given enough examples of india's promotion of all castes, minorities...we really don't give a damn on ur opinion :D
thats why i said in first place...ur just an outsider...u can't tolerate my facts about china but u have a big mouth when it comes to india....unless u have some more points than u keep repeating i suggest u find a new topic to criticise india...
good luck on ur next tirade...hehe

observer

03-28-2007, 01:04 PM

In India we don't call any dalit or whoever someone from another ethnicity. We call everyone an Indian. But some people are looked down as having a lower social status than others. This is feudalism not racism. So India isn't a racist country, it's a feudal country.

Agra

03-29-2007, 03:52 AM

Neo, you are oversensitive to comments from outsiders, esp on the issue of your treasured caste system.
China may have a veto power, but it is limited only to matters raised in the Security Council and can do nothing about the conclusions / recommendations to be put forward by the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.

When that committee which is composed of independent experts selected on the merit of their integrity and professionalism proposed to India the recommendations as follows:
# Introduce mandatory training on the application of India’s Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act for police, judges and prosecutors, and take disciplinary measures against those who fail to implement this law.
# Ensure the protection of witnesses and victims to caste-based crimes and ensure their immediate access to effective remedies.
# Prosecute and punish perpetrators of sexual violence and sexual exploitation of Dalit women, and sanction anyone found preventing or discouraging victims from reporting such incidents, including public officials.
# Eradicate the social acceptance of caste-based discrimination through public education and awareness campaigns.
# Ensure equal access to health care, safe drinking water, and other public services.
# Investigate all alleged cases of discrimination against Dalits in post-tsunami relief and compensate or retroactively grant benefits to victims of such discrimination.
# Take effective measures to reduce dropout rates and increase enrollment rates among Dalits at all levels of schooling by providing scholarships and by ending classroom segregation.
# Ensure proper enforcement of reservations or quotas to counter the under-representation of Dalits and tribal communities in government and public services.
# Adopt measures to enhance Dalits’ access to the labor market, including by extending the reservation policy to the private sector.
# Repeal the Armed Forces Special Powers Act that, while providing the armed forces with widespread powers to search, arrest and shoot suspects, leading to allegations of human rights abuses, has immunity provisions under which troops cannot be prosecuted unless authorized by the Central Government.

it does suggest something is terribly wrong with Indian society to the outsiders.

That fact that you don't give a damn to such reputable body shows that you are frustrated and choose to bury your head into the sand. It is a natural response from someone who ttends to blame the down-trodden people for all their sufferings.

You will be quick to point out that Amnesty International is a reputable source when it comes to China's human rights record. Yes, it may be, but not on the same par as the Committee on the elimination of Racial Discrimination.

Whatever truth/dirt you may have about China does not change world's perception of rampant caste discriminaiton in India and incompetence of its government on the matter.

We have had enough exchanges on the issue Are Indians Racist, a topic raised by your own countryman. If you are not able convince your own countrymen about nice racial/ethnic relations in India, small wonder you can not sell your arguements abroad.

It is fun to be with your guys.
:cool:

India1989

03-29-2007, 07:31 AM

india89...no one is denying that we don't have problems. what me and rohit were talking about is the misconception of the severity of caste system and its linking to racism by outsiders like agra who were adopting a biased approach with regard to reports by western media/agencies.

u have brought in a whole new issue and yes i agree this kind of discrimination does exist but to say that its only with regard to north east is not accurate. comeon, all of us have heard of all the south indians being labelled "madrasis" in the north and subject to ridicule because of the language and in reciprocity the intolerance of tamilans towards hindi speaking people.

if u go by such small divisions then it would appear the whole country is divided on some lines. but remember kargil war? the martyrs who died together came from all over india. north, south, north east (assam rifles and rajputana rifles fought bravely side by side)

regional differences and unity despite them- this is the essence of india. if u call it racism or consider it close then i think thats the over self critical nature of indians i am seeing in play.

neo,

That's what I meant discrimination is everywhere in India. but discrimnation is at a higher level at those places which I mentioned.

In India people do discriminate everyone but doesn't mean that they really hate them. It's just that it happens. India is world's most diverse country and these discrimnations are supposed to happen.

Indian army is a whole new spectra your brought in. Indian army is the most secular force in the world. I knew that. But I was talkign about Indian public. But these differences can cause a bit of discrimination which is not a big deal but these differences bring us together. That's the real India. And I am proud about India being so diverse and these discrimnations should happen otherwise what's the fun in living.

All i wanted to say that we can't deny that discriminations happen but it's not like we hate each other for that. Those are part and parcel of our life. Today discriminate, tomorrow we become friends. these cycles continue.

Neo

03-29-2007, 09:39 AM

Neo, you are oversensitive to comments from outsiders, esp on the issue of your treasured caste system.
China may have a veto power, but it is limited only to matters raised in the Security Council and can do nothing about the conclusions / recommendations to be put forward by the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.

i m not oversensitive...i outright reject comments from countries who are guilt ridden by their own racial past and are pushing the so called agenda of eradication of casteism when truth is its the west which is still plagued by covert racism...
the so called committee on elimination of racial discrimination had how many members from the colonies of britian? or from latin america? or from tibet? or from south africa?

When that committee which is composed of independent experts selected on the merit of their integrity and professionalism proposed to India the recommendations as follows:

and an overbearing guilt for the racist ancestory these guys had

# Introduce mandatory training on the application of India’s Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act for police, judges and prosecutors, and take disciplinary measures against those who fail to implement this law.
# Ensure the protection of witnesses and victims to caste-based crimes and ensure their immediate access to effective remedies.
# Prosecute and punish perpetrators of sexual violence and sexual exploitation of Dalit women, and sanction anyone found preventing or discouraging victims from reporting such incidents, including public officials.

even the dumbest of human would say that the above points should be applicable to all individuals of a society and not only a special class...if these intelligent and pseudo professionals had any idea of the crimes in india they would realise that its not only dalits who suffer at the hands of police and judicial inaction but any poor person without money or "reach" irresepective of caste or creed.
thats why i call outsiders with big mouths and small brains gullible...because they have no true assessment of the ground realities and still keep preaching

# Eradicate the social acceptance of caste-based discrimination through public education and awareness campaigns.
# Ensure equal access to health care, safe drinking water, and other public services.

the first point is the only one that makes sense and people are becoming aware of that themselves...
its a known fact that many villages in india don't have access to safe drinking water...if the foreigners dream that india has segregated its population and only dalits live in such villages then they are outright stupid

# Investigate all alleged cases of discrimination against Dalits in post-tsunami relief and compensate or retroactively grant benefits to victims of such discrimination.
# Take effective measures to reduce dropout rates and increase enrollment rates among Dalits at all levels of schooling by providing scholarships and by ending classroom segregation.

i din't hear of such complaints on any of national media (independent btw...unlike xinhua) about post tsunami discrimination....
drop out rates of dalits alone? why? 45% of india's population is illiterate...people drop out coz poverty forces them out...eradicating poverty will solve problems for all the people instead of focusing on one group

# Ensure proper enforcement of reservations or quotas to counter the under-representation of Dalits and tribal communities in government and public services.

the quota system doesn't need to be enforced...40% of indian university seats are reserved and filled every year by SC,STs and dalits ....for the guys who wrote this report it would have been an eye opener to visit any technical institute and see it for themselves..

# Adopt measures to enhance Dalits’ access to the labor market, including by extending the reservation policy to the private sector.

this shows how naive outsiders can be....private sector doesn't work on the policy of social upliftment...its first motive and survival depends on profit...i wonder if tomorrow GOI tells all the software multinationals to fill in 30% of vacancies on social cause instead of merit...how long would it be before all these companies close their business and move elsewhere...probably china...:D
hidden agenda of the chinese? wonder if a committe member was from there...just kiddin..don't turn blue agra..

# Repeal the Armed Forces Special Powers Act that, while providing the armed forces with widespread powers to search, arrest and shoot suspects, leading to allegations of human rights abuses, has immunity provisions under which troops cannot be prosecuted unless authorized by the Central Government.

yea...the typical mentality to slip in an item that doesn't even come close to caste...the AFSPA was enforced in the state of manipur to counter insurgency...it was not against any specific caste....proves the point...some idiots just doing their paper work...

i have given a point by point assessment of the recommendations by these outsiders....and anyone who knows indian society well would understand that all this hulla boo about dalits should actually be a hulla boo about the poor and powerless in india....poverty is rampant and so is oppression of the poor in many areas...and for someone who believes that oppressors choose whom to oppress based on caste....i have just one sentence...
try to open ur narrow eyes...:D

as for convincing my fellow indians...i don't need to...read their posts correctly....for people born and brought up in india...things i said will make sense...for indians born and raised in west things will appear different because of the western "education" they recieve...
its a well known fact that public transportation in london sees subtle racism against indians even today...seats next to them are not occupied...if people raised in such countries have doubts about what those countries taught them about caste system in india...ur friendly desi brothers are here to educate u...:d

as for outsiders like u agra...i repeat...we don't give a damn... because we know that ur guilt ridden mentality for crimes against colonies, tibet or elsewhere forces u to put the blame elsewhere to satisgy the false ego of one upmanship...

u guys make me pity u...:)

Agra

03-30-2007, 04:33 AM

Neo, It seems that your ranting criticism of the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) is based on your assumption that the committee is controlled or manipulated by the west.

Enlightenment time (to use your favourate word) for an ostrich whose small head and brain (Neo's favourate again) is buried in the sand:

The Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination is composed of 18 independent experts who are persons of high moral standing and acknowledged impartiality. Consideration must also be given to equitable geographical distribution and to the representation of the different forms of civilization as well as of the principal legal systems.
CERD monitors implementation of the Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. All States parties, India included, are obliged to submit regular reports to the Committee on how the rights are being implemented.

The current membership of the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination is:

Neo, open your myopic eyes and see red above: Most of the members are from outside the west and can not be accused of being biased in favour of the west in their opinions on India.

An Indian, Mr Pillai, sits on the committee and is its vice chairman. Do you call him an outsider with a big mouth and a small brain (like yours)? :D

During the recent hearing on India's report last month, Committee members uniformly took issue with the Indian government's refusal to acknowledge that caste-based discrimination is covered by the Convention and is an issue of international human rights concern. Indian delegation resorted to a semantic debate on the difference between caste and race, to no avail, of course, as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh himself already likened last December the practice of untouchability in India to apartheid in South Africa. The CERD regreted the Indian delegation's arrogant rejection of well-documented abuses against Dalits.

As to post-tsunami relief problem in India, the fact that Neo is not aware of an incident (Dalits denied relief by local officials) does not necessarily mean that the incident had not happened. Neo has an inflated view of yourself.

The CERD recommendations to India are worth repeating to knock the message home:

# Introduce mandatory training on the application of India’s Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act for police, judges and prosecutors, and take disciplinary measures against those who fail to implement this law.
# Ensure the protection of witnesses and victims to caste-based crimes and ensure their immediate access to effective remedies.
# Prosecute and punish perpetrators of sexual violence and sexual exploitation of Dalit women, and sanction anyone found preventing or discouraging victims from reporting such incidents, including public officials.
# Eradicate the social acceptance of caste-based discrimination through public education and awareness campaigns.
# Ensure equal access to health care, safe drinking water, and other public services.
# Investigate all alleged cases of discrimination against Dalits in post-tsunami relief and compensate or retroactively grant benefits to victims of such discrimination.
# Take effective measures to reduce dropout rates and increase enrollment rates among Dalits at all levels of schooling by providing scholarships and by ending classroom segregation.
# Ensure proper enforcement of reservations or quotas to counter the under-representation of Dalits and tribal communities in government and public services.
# Adopt measures to enhance Dalits’ access to the labor market, including by extending the reservation policy to the private sector.
# Repeal the Armed Forces Special Powers Act that, while providing the armed forces with widespread powers to search, arrest and shoot suspects, leading to allegations of human rights abuses, has immunity provisions under which troops cannot be prosecuted unless authorized by the Central Government.

Many NGOs considered reputable by many of you guys are calling on India to implement CERD recommendations as soon as possible. The organizations include the Human Rights Watch, the Centre for Human Rights and the Global Justice at New York University School of Law, and the International Dalit Solidarity Network. http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/mar/13dalits.htm)

Drag China in again ? :p

Neo

03-30-2007, 08:07 PM

Neo, It seems that your ranting criticism of the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) is based on your assumption that the committee is controlled or manipulated by the west.

is not my assumption...its a fact that such committees are controlled and i didn't say manipulated...i said governed by the guilt ridden mentality of the erstwhile colonial powers

Enlightenment time (to use your favourate word) for an ostrich whose small head and brain (Neo's favourate again) is buried in the sand:

i know chinese are good at copying agra but comeon try to be original...i am sure u can find some words...the only difference between you and the other chinese on this forum is that you can read and write english...well...take one step forward and may be someday you will also be able to comprehend whats written...

The Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination is composed of 18 independent experts who are persons of high moral standing and acknowledged impartiality. Consideration must also be given to equitable geographical distribution and to the representation of the different forms of civilization as well as of the principal legal systems.
CERD monitors implementation of the Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. All States parties, India included, are obliged to submit regular reports to the Committee on how the rights are being implemented.

assumptions on ur part agra? who is elected to these commitees and how? do you know most of these are ex- public servants in their respective countries? since u gave the example of Mr. Pillai...here is an eye opener for you...he was a public servant in india...
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu2/6/cerd/cv/Pillai.pdf
ur trying to mislead the people on this forum by citing only selective parts of the CERD....you write as if CERD was formed by UN to chide the states it thinks are racially biased...its not...it was formed to come out of the guilt mentality the european powers had due to the mess they created....
of course u need to understand the psycology of world politics to comprehend that....as i said there's a difference between reading and understanding...
the commitee has several vice chairpersons...which incidentally is rotational...i was not rash in saying the committee is governed by west...thats a fact...what kind of influence does burkina faso have in world politics today?
its a very well known ploy by the west...even the UN is shining example...a 50 year old body still without tooth and nail in the general assembly and the all important security council hogged by the 5 based on a war half a decade ago...
so please keep this talk of representation and equality to yourself...the CERD also makes recommendations to the US government on almost the same lines as to india and gets the same reply...in the US laws prohibit racism...in India laws prohibit discrimination based on caste...in fact india goes one step further in providing social reservation for the upliftment of the lower castes..

Neo, open your myopic eyes and see red above: Most of the members are from outside the west and can not be accused of being biased in favour of the west in their opinions on India.

see red? :D comeon agra...thats ur job...i m not a communist...remember ?
well as i told u...i don't go by what is written on internet and books...i go by what is visible to probing eyes and intellect...once again...i emphasize...learn to comprehend...not just read agra....

An Indian, Mr Pillai, sits on the committee and is its vice chairman. Do you call him an outsider with a big mouth and a small brain (like yours)? :D

no...because mr pillai wouldn't have given the comments that we saw there...it would have been made by outsiders...most probably chinese...haha..
mr. pillai is not a high caste in case you don't know...and the fact that racial discrimination didn't prevent him from reaching this position speaks for itself the hollowness of ur arguments...

During the recent hearing on India's report last month, Committee members uniformly took issue with the Indian government's refusal to acknowledge that caste-based discrimination is covered by the Convention and is an issue of international human rights concern. Indian delegation resorted to a semantic debate on the difference between caste and race, to no avail, of course, as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh himself already likened last December the practice of untouchability in India to apartheid in South Africa. The CERD regreted the Indian delegation's arrogant rejection of well-documented abuses against Dalits.

its the committee's job to make recommendations and its the government's job to put its perspective...pseudo intellectuals are the same everywhere..they see the world in black and white...the same committee also asked the US government about the seemingly high number of death sentences to blacks. what does that prove? that the US is still racist?

The CERD recommendations to India are worth repeating to knock the message home:

# Introduce mandatory training on the application of India’s Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act for police, judges and prosecutors, and take disciplinary measures against those who fail to implement this law.
# Ensure the protection of witnesses and victims to caste-based crimes and ensure their immediate access to effective remedies.
# Prosecute and punish perpetrators of sexual violence and sexual exploitation of Dalit women, and sanction anyone found preventing or discouraging victims from reporting such incidents, including public officials.
# Eradicate the social acceptance of caste-based discrimination through public education and awareness campaigns.
# Ensure equal access to health care, safe drinking water, and other public services.
# Investigate all alleged cases of discrimination against Dalits in post-tsunami relief and compensate or retroactively grant benefits to victims of such discrimination.
# Take effective measures to reduce dropout rates and increase enrollment rates among Dalits at all levels of schooling by providing scholarships and by ending classroom segregation.
# Ensure proper enforcement of reservations or quotas to counter the under-representation of Dalits and tribal communities in government and public services.
# Adopt measures to enhance Dalits’ access to the labor market, including by extending the reservation policy to the private sector.
# Repeal the Armed Forces Special Powers Act that, while providing the armed forces with widespread powers to search, arrest and shoot suspects, leading to allegations of human rights abuses, has immunity provisions under which troops cannot be prosecuted unless authorized by the Central Government.

as i see you are too dumb to understand that the points above apply to poor people in india irrespective of castes....as i see ur adamant to admit that the majority of india's poor don't belong to a specific caste and these are the people who need help...
as u urself said...ur just repeating urself....in vain....coz u have nothing to talk about...just rantings based on what you read but don't understand...

Many NGOs considered reputable by many of you guys are calling on India to implement CERD recommendations as soon as possible. The organizations include the Human Rights Watch, the Centre for Human Rights and the Global Justice at New York University School of Law, and the International Dalit Solidarity Network. http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/mar/13dalits.htm)

Drag China in again ? :p

so the NGO's are reputable again? lolz...what a shining example of chinese double standard you are agra...when i cite amnesty's report on chinese governments human rights abuse they become disreputable and when you side their report they become reputable again???
oh man..u guys know exactly the art of putting ur own foot in ur mouth...lolz..

i don't need to drag in china anywhere agra...the whole world knows how "morally" high and "rights" oriented u chinese are....to hear big words from people like you is laughable...i will not attribute this to your brain or whatever...will just say this...ur uneducated....u know how to read and write but not how to think...:)

Agra

03-31-2007, 04:41 AM

is not my assumption...its a fact that such committees are controlled and i didn't say manipulated...i said governed by the guilt ridden mentality of the erstwhile colonial powers
This is a sweeping description, yet to be proven. Intention to belittle the comittee CERD is obvious.

i know chinese are good at copying agra but comeon try to be original...i am sure u can find some words...the only difference between you and the other chinese on this forum is that you can read and write english...well...take one step forward and may be someday you will also be able to comprehend whats written...
True English is not my mother tongne and I am not ashamed of that. When you run out of real arguments, you start to pick on the language issue. You have every reason to be proud of your English thanks to British colonialism.

assumptions on ur part agra? who is elected to these commitees and how? do you know most of these are ex- public servants in their respective countries? since u gave the example of Mr. Pillai...here is an eye opener for you...he was a public servant in india...
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu2/6/cerd/cv/Pillai.pdf

ur trying to mislead the people on this forum by citing only selective parts of the CERD....you write as if CERD was formed by UN to chide the states it thinks are racially biased...its not...it was formed to come out of the guilt mentality the european powers had due to the mess they created....
of course u need to understand the psycology of world politics to comprehend that....as i said there's a difference between reading and understanding...
the commitee has several vice chairpersons...which incidentally is rotational...i was not rash in saying the committee is governed by west...thats a fact...what kind of influence does burkina faso have in world politics today?
its a very well known ploy by the west...even the UN is shining example...a 50 year old body still without tooth and nail in the general assembly and the all important security council hogged by the 5 based on a war half a decade ago...
so please keep this talk of representation and equality to yourself...the CERD also makes recommendations to the US government on almost the same lines as to india and gets the same reply...in the US laws prohibit racism...in India laws prohibit discrimination based on caste...in fact india goes one step further in providing social reservation for the upliftment of the lower castes..
no...because mr pillai wouldn't have given the comments that we saw there...it would have been made by outsiders...most probably chinese...haha..
mr. pillai is not a high caste in case you don't know...and the fact that racial discrimination didn't prevent him from reaching this position speaks for itself the hollowness of ur arguments...

CERD’s membership consists not of political appointees, but elected independent experts who serve in their personal capacities. For example, the US member of CERD was chief of the civil rights division of the Department of Justice, and thus had been in charge of all civil rights law enforcement in the US. Pillai headed India’s National Human Rights Commission. The British member is an eminent international human rights law academic. Dispite different backgournds, the committee members uniformly took issue with Indian government on the issue of caste discrimination.

No matter how hard you try to belittle CERD, its authority and credibily will not diminish. If you think the body is a ploy of the West, then why should India be so stupid as to accede to the Convention on the eliminination of racial discrimination in the first place? The recommendations made to India show something is wrong with Indian society and are a wake-up call to Neo.

its the committee's job to make recommendations and its the government's job to put its perspective...pseudo intellectuals are the same everywhere..they see the world in black and white...the same committee also asked the US government about the seemingly high number of death sentences to blacks. what does that prove? that the US is still racist?

as i see you are too dumb to understand that the points above apply to poor people in india irrespective of castes....as i see ur adamant to admit that the majority of india's poor don't belong to a specific caste and these are the people who need help...
as u urself said...ur just repeating urself....in vain....coz u have nothing to talk about...just rantings based on what you read but don't understand...
so the NGO's are reputable again? lolz...what a shining example of chinese double standard you are agra...when i cite amnesty's report on chinese governments human rights abuse they become disreputable and when you side their report they become reputable again???
oh man..u guys know exactly the art of putting ur own foot in ur mouth...lolz..

i don't need to drag in china anywhere agra...the whole world knows how "morally" high and "rights" oriented u chinese are....to hear big words from people like you is laughable...i will not attribute this to your brain or whatever...will just say this...ur uneducated....u know how to read and write but not how to think...:)

You love englightening people, reinforcing the popular belief that Indians are good at talking but not at action.

In short, you reject existance of caste discrimination and oppression in India. What happens is discrimination against and oppression of the poor as a whole in India. Right?

This can be one way of looking at the things. However you can not prevent many insiders from disagreeing with you and from complaining to the outsiders about caste discrimination and oppresion they have suffered in Indian society.

The caste problem will haunt you as long as your head stays in the sand.
:p
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P.S. I have stopped copying Neo in the use of abusive words (big mouth, small brains, dumb etc), because he is second to none in using them and has a proven record of going very low in order to get even. :eek:

Neo

03-31-2007, 07:26 AM

True English is not my mother tongne and I am not ashamed of that. When you run out of real arguments, you start to pick on the language issue. You have every reason to be proud of your English thanks to British colonialism.

no agra, u again didn't understand..ur english is very good...probably better than mine...what u lack is the power to understand...has nothing to do with language...probably u wd read the same thing in chinese and understand nothing...i m not proud of my english...trust me i wd write in hindi if the forum was supporting unicode hindi characters....i m more proud of my hindi and resent english than u know...but as usual u didn't understand what i wrote in english....u merely read it...proving exactly the point i was making

CERD’s membership consists not of political appointees, but elected independent experts who serve in their personal capacities. For example, the US member of CERD was chief of the civil rights division of the Department of Justice, and thus had been in charge of all civil rights law enforcement in the US. Pillai headed India’s National Human Rights Commission. The British member is an eminent international human rights law academic. Dispite different backgournds, the committee members uniformly took issue with Indian government on the issue of caste discrimination.

do u know how the diplomats are elected to UN? they are all "bright" members of the public services of their respective countries. its plain common sense agra...CERD doesn't hold elections all over the world to elect its members...it requests the countries which are bound by the statute to provide a nomineed to the committee...from these representatives every 2 years chairpersons are elected... this committee is no different than any other committee formed at the UN....and if u think that God represents any of these than as i said earlier...wake up ...:D

No matter how hard you try to belittle CERD, its authority and credibily will not diminish. If you think the body is a ploy of the West, then why should India be so stupid as to accede to the Convention on the eliminination of racial discrimination in the first place? The recommendations made to India show something is wrong with Indian society and are a wake-up call to Neo.

very simple...why did all the countries of the world including Iraq took up membership of the UN? no one wants to be isolated...and it doesn't harm to be part of a committee without teeth and nail....the committee will come back with its findings every year saying US, India, China and 100 other countries are racist and the government would do something about it coz its their job....if tomorrow they said ...all's well in this world the committee would cease to exist....the committee is right on its own to recommend more positive steps but if it takes the tasks of just criticism without highlighting the social initiatives of the respective governments, it will get what it deserves...the US rejected its recommendations, so did india....simple..

You love englightening people, reinforcing the popular belief that Indians are good at talking but not at action.

popular beliefs are just that popular...nothing else...i am sure 20 years ago the popular belief all over the world was that china is a communist country where people suffer and is doomed....that didn't prevent china from transforming itself did it? so i ll let people who refuse to be enlightened remain with popular beliefs :)

In short, you reject existance of caste discrimination and oppression in India. What happens is discrimination against and oppression of the poor as a whole in India. Right?

This can be one way of looking at the things. However you can not prevent many insiders from disagreeing with you and from complaining to the outsiders about caste discrimination and oppresion they have suffered in Indian society.

I don't reject caste discrimination or oppression. I reject this being called racism. I will tell you whats the most prominent aspect of this caste discrimination you are talking about....its not to do with higher castes beating the lower castes or not letting them take water from a public well as it used to be during british times...now its more of a social narrow mindness...a higher caste boy marries a girl from a higher caste to fulfill the wishes of his family and likewise with the lower castes....
a intercaste marriage is still an exception than rule in india....and thats what is really preventing the integration of indian society...
i am a so called high caste "brahmin" myself but my best friend from college times is a so called "backward" caste and still there's a bond between us that has grown stronger over the last several years....
this is what makes me ridicule the outsiders who talk about discrimination based on caste...if there was discrimination...my friend would not have been able to make it to where he is today....successfull and progressive at a rapid pace...nor did me being a high caste help me in any way in achieving what i have...

-------------
P.S. I have stopped copying Neo in the use of abusive words (big mouth, small brains, dumb etc), because he is second to none in using them and has a proven record of going very low in order to get even. :eek:
[/QUOTE]

oh thank u so much agra...first of all i was referring to the guys who made the recommendations on CERD about caste system as dumb and small brain but as i said u just read and jump to write so in ur hurry u thought i was abusing u and u replied back with ostrich and all that nice stuff...:D
i am no saint...i reply tit for tat....i agree....

rohit khaitan

03-31-2007, 02:49 PM

The UN link I gave about India's compliance with Convention against racism is a credible source. You overstretched yourself by claiming that ALL links are credible.

So i believe you are the authority to decide on which is the credible source and which is not??? You can live happily with ur self proclaimed authority.
Like i said you conveniently change ur opinion if it suits ur purpose. So it didnt come as a surprise to anyone of us here.

You are being very modest by describing rampant caste discrimination, if not oppression, as stray incidents in India.

Rampant discrimination??? Excuse me. You havent prooved it yet. You are just ranting it. But thanks for calling me modest. You are not even being modest enough to accept chinese racism in tibet, east turkistan and ujghur.

I am still waiting for a convincing reply from you guys to the UN recommendations to Indian government on combating racism.

We r still waiting for a convincing reply from u on Amnesty internationals recommendations to Chinese.

It is Neo who threw up dirt on China at the sight of my reply in disregard of the topic of the thread. Blame Neo for that. Let's focus on the topic of this thread: Are Indians racist?

So you dont want to discuss china after all. Why?? Does it hurt if someone shows u the mirror? If u r chinese freinds can post so many threads on shanghai and beijing which has nothing to do with this site. Why cant we post racism in China which is absolutely relevant to the topic??? You didnt oppose our comments on racism in US, UK, South Africa. But the moment we name China u say its not relevant. See there .. u changed ur opinion again.:)

Agra

04-01-2007, 03:30 AM

do u know how the diplomats are elected to UN? they are all "bright" members of the public services of their respective countries. its plain common sense agra...CERD doesn't hold elections all over the world to elect its members...it requests the countries which are bound by the statute to provide a nomineed to the committee...from these representatives every 2 years chairpersons are elected... this committee is no different than any other committee formed at the UN....and if u think that God represents any of these than as i said earlier...wake up ...:D

very simple...why did all the countries of the world including Iraq took up membership of the UN? no one wants to be isolated...and it doesn't harm to be part of a committee without teeth and nail....the committee will come back with its findings every year saying US, India, China and 100 other countries are racist and the government would do something about it coz its their job....if tomorrow they said ...all's well in this world the committee would cease to exist....the committee is right on its own to recommend more positive steps but if it takes the tasks of just criticism without highlighting the social initiatives of the respective governments, it will get what it deserves...the US rejected its recommendations, so did india....simple..

Your challenge to the qualification of people forming UN bodies is cynical and overstreched. CERD has a respectable membership and does a respectable job in praising and critisizing countries. Its recommendations carry a lot of moral weight. When it hammers India on the issue of caste, it really hurts. Your reaction so far is proof. Of course, people choose to ignore them for one reason of another.

I don't reject caste discrimination or oppression. I reject this being called racism. I will tell you whats the most prominent aspect of this caste discrimination you are talking about....its not to do with higher castes beating the lower castes or not letting them take water from a public well as it used to be during british times...now its more of a social narrow mindness...a higher caste boy marries a girl from a higher caste to fulfill the wishes of his family and likewise with the lower castes....
a intercaste marriage is still an exception than rule in india....and thats what is really preventing the integration of indian society...
i am a so called high caste "brahmin" myself but my best friend from college times is a so called "backward" caste and still there's a bond between us that has grown stronger over the last several years....
this is what makes me ridicule the outsiders who talk about discrimination based on caste...if there was discrimination...my friend would not have been able to make it to where he is today....successfull and progressive at a rapid pace...nor did me being a high caste help me in any way in achieving what i have...

Hmm, this part of your talk of narrow-mindedness makes sense. The caste discrimination did not become "racism" until the convention on eliminiatoin of racial discriminaiont came along. The debate between India and CERD will continue on it.

You gave a good example of a friend from backward caste. It may be more an exception than a rule, I guess. Your statement will be more convincing if uttered/shared by lower caste people.

Neo, I have been talking to a distinguished brahmin. What an honour and what a revelation. ;) Small wonder that traffic accident should have happened the other day.

rohit khaitan, As I said already, this thread is about Indians being racist or not. if you are really interested in China, pls start a new thread.:p

Neo

04-02-2007, 12:00 AM

Your challenge to the qualification of people forming UN bodies is cynical and overstreched. CERD has a respectable membership and does a respectable job in praising and critisizing countries. Its recommendations carry a lot of moral weight. When it hammers India on the issue of caste, it really hurts. Your reaction so far is proof. Of course, people choose to ignore them for one reason of another.

i differ that these recommendations carry lot of moral weight...i don't think the west has any idea of what the east is culturally and socially...they apply the same parameters of judgement to social strata here as they apply to the west....its like saying...we set the parameters...now lets judge u on that...i think thats bullshit...

Hmm, this part of your talk of narrow-mindedness makes sense. The caste discrimination did not become "racism" until the convention on eliminiatoin of racial discriminaiont came along. The debate between India and CERD will continue on it.

exactly...the west had one parameter to label everything...even things they didn't understand....casteism was a scourge of hinduism only when its true purpose was lost under islamic invasion...we have stories in our sacred scriptures of lord Ram eating berries tasted to be sweet by a lower caste poor woman called shabri who was his hostess during his wanderings in the forest during his 14 year exile...hinduism has had several other vices...like child marriages and the practices of yound widowes being burned alive with the bodies of their husbands...these were changed...and not by the west but by distinguished social reformers from india like raja rammohan roy....
hence when CERD blatantly labels casteism as racism it ignores the social steps being taken by indian government and no social initiative can succeed without public consent....

You gave a good example of a friend from backward caste. It may be more an exception than a rule, I guess. Your statement will be more convincing if uttered/shared by lower caste people.

i don't think their are any "lower" caste people...and i don't believe i am a "high" caste....i don't think caste system would have any other connotation than a community like the mandarian, tibetans and the like in the coming years...

Neo, I have been talking to a distinguished brahmin. What an honour and what a revelation. ;) Small wonder that traffic accident should have happened the other day.

i was born in a brahmin family...yes...i can not change that....but i don't believe i have any "higher" status because of that and i have no problem in saying that i think a so called "lower" caste person who is righteous, hard working and honest is 100 times "higher" than a corrupt, lazy or bigot high caste brahmin....

rohit khaitan

04-02-2007, 12:01 AM

Agra now since u enjoy talking racism in India. Likewise i also want to have my share of fun by exposing the hollowness of ur country.
(If at all you are a chinese)

Now will u kindly let me post it sir??? Since u decide which is a credible organisation and site and which is not. And what we can post here and
what we cant. I seek u r permission gentlman.

Agra

04-02-2007, 06:31 PM

Agra now since u enjoy talking racism in India. Likewise i also want to have my share of fun by exposing the hollowness of ur country.
(If at all you are a chinese)

Now will u kindly let me post it sir??? Since u decide which is a credible organisation and site and which is not. And what we can post here and
what we cant. I seek u r permission gentlman.

It is amusing to see such a humble gesture from someone who is ready to advise psychiatry to others.

You have been ignored. So out of frustration you are making a scene.

I repeat one more time for your stubborn head: Start a new thread and have your fun in using whatever source to prove how hollow China is. I will not be as jumpy as you have been about India's casteism, though.

Agra

04-02-2007, 06:37 PM

This thread shows how sensitive Indians can be to the issue of casteism.

rohit khaitan

04-02-2007, 11:23 PM

I was ignored. HA ha.. that was a good joke. A pat on ur back for this orignial joke.

But was i ignored or u didnt have answers to my questions.

Do u change ur opinion to suit ur purpose???
Do chinese decide which site is credible and which is not? And which organisation is biased and which is not?

Hey by the way who all were the members of amnesty international?? Do u have any idea??

India1989

04-06-2007, 06:08 PM

This thread shows how sensitive Indians can be to the issue of casteism.

SO does that matter to you. Go worry about what's going on in China. We don't care about you caring about what's our problem.

shekhar_asu

04-15-2007, 04:46 PM

Thanks for the person who posted such a wonderful article. This thread should be educative for everyone rather than blaming each other. Having lived abroad for over a decade, i noticed certain unbelievable facts about our culture (indian culture). We indeed are racist to a point (if someone agrees to or not). when i say "WE", i don't mean everyone but most of them. This is a sad fact about our culture. In fact, most of us are hypocrites. Please stop for a minute and think deeply about it, you will notice it. Out of many issues, some common ones are discrimation by the place you live, region you are from and the caste you belong to (Sadly this still persists in the minds and hearts of so-called educated people).

rohit khaitan

04-15-2007, 10:11 PM

If u have lived outside india for a decade how can u say it for so sure?? In a decade everything changes.

Besides even a decade back indians were never racist. I am 27 and i have lived in kolkata, ahmedabad, rajkot and pune in these years. No bengali or gujarat or marathi ever was racist to me. Although i belong to the state of rajasthan. Neither have i witnessed a single case of racism in all these years of my life.

Infact i had muslim and sikh freinds in all the four cities i lived in. And today an outsider whos no more a part of india comes and tells me that i am a racist or my countrymen are racist?? And u expect me to believe it???

Dont give general statements mr shekhar. Either give evidence based facts or stay out of discussion.

India1989

04-29-2007, 06:02 AM

If u have lived outside india for a decade how can u say it for so sure?? In a decade everything changes.

Besides even a decade back indians were never racist. I am 27 and i have lived in kolkata, ahmedabad, rajkot and pune in these years. No bengali or gujarat or marathi ever was racist to me. Although i belong to the state of rajasthan. Neither have i witnessed a single case of racism in all these years of my life.

Infact i had muslim and sikh freinds in all the four cities i lived in. And today an outsider whos no more a part of india comes and tells me that i am a racist or my countrymen are racist?? And u expect me to believe it???

Dont give general statements mr shekhar. Either give evidence based facts or stay out of discussion.

Well Indians are infact not racist but sometimes people don't believe it. But yeah we do do racist jokes about certain indian communities but we take it as a joke. sometimes ther eare fight but fights always happen. we shouldn't be called racist for that