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Unlike the list of Hong Kong 120 torchbearers, the order shown in the list of Macau 120 Torchbearers on the article is the same as the real order in the torch relay in Macau on 3rd May 2008. Shrimp wong (talk) 05:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I think this article is a bit too 'nerdy'. In the spirit of Wikipedia is not a directory, I propose that we deleted the list of Hong Kong torch-bearers as being unencyclopaedic. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree. List of torchbearers in Russia (unofficial) and at least preliminary list for Australia (official) are also available online. But the article should grow too large if we include them. It should either be split to subpages or lists be deleted and only external links to them left in the article. Av0id3r (talk) 17:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Why does someone not think this is in violation of WP:NOT#DIRECTORY? Come on, where is the discussion to put this back? Ohconfucius (talk) 04:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe if some of the participants have their own wikipages, these names will not appear as so random. Check out Chinese zh wikipedia, there are many more links there. Last I checked, there is no webpage that shows all the participants in English and Chinese names together. It isn't any less notable than list of movies, list of streets etc. Ideally all the participants should be moved here. We haven't got to it. Benjwong (talk) 04:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's think about it this way: The torch relay covers more than 40,000 km, and has officially over 19,000 torchbearers in China alone. I don't see how it would be reasonable to include more than a handful of the torch-bearers' names, and do so just because they had Chinese names would be incorporating systematic bias. It certainly would not be 'fair' to only include the Chinese people, don't you think? -unless you propose to offer to gather the phoneticised names of the non-Chinese participants. Even if you did, lists like these often run into copyright issues, which is why I feel these should be kept to a strict minumum; supply the link and leave it at that. Ohconfucius (talk) 05:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood. I meant having both English & Chinese names were beneficial for HK, Macau and likely China. I believe the websites hosting any type of list today will shutdown a few years after the olympics. So your best chance of building a complete list is actually here. I originally planned on moving some of the international torchbearer names here out of the "sequence of events" section when I got time. To sum it up, there is NO COMPLETE LIST anywhere. A partial list here is better than nothing. Benjwong (talk) 05:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

My most recent edit is that of a condensed table. This does not have the 120 but at least the names are linked to the table. Benjwong (talk) 07:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I hear you clearly. I think such a table would be acceptable, but it should only really be limited to the more prominent names - I deliberately use 'prominent' because many of the other torch-bearers may also be notable per WP:BIO, although they don't have WP articles. I am inclined to believe that it doesn't matter if nobody has a complete list anywhere on the internet in two years' time, as there is just much too trivial, the information doesn't pass the WP:NOT bar, IMHO. Ohconfucius (talk) 08:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why the descendant of Lin Zexu was deleted because he has no name? The press decided not to publish his name, but he's obviously unique to the relay. Which explains why he was mentioned. Benjwong (talk) 23:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It would appear that this person is not the slightest bit notable, but was put up by the Chinese Government to send a political message against British imperialism. If they can't even be bothered to put up his name, then there's absolutely no reason why 'he' should be mentioned here in the roster of "notable torchbearer". Remember, notability is not inherited (unless you're royalty) - if I had a direct lineage to Confucius, that fact alone is insufficient make me notable. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

This is scmp source. Not a PRC source. But it shouldn't matter. If you imply it was somekind of political message, then it is definitely notable. Probably more so than any other candidate in the relay. Benjwong (talk) 05:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It's still not necessarily notable, as I said above. They are free to appoint anyone they like, but it's no more than a dig at the colonialists. You know how 小氣 the PRC government can be - it may mean something to them, but not to anyone else. And you are right about me implying that. It's only my speculation, but do we need to 畫公仔畫出腸? I'm sure the SCMP would have published the name if they had it. Ohconfucius (talk) 08:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I see your concern. But the goal is to have as complete a list as possible. The goal is not to match the beijing torchrelay official site. A description with no name is better than a lost record. Benjwong (talk) 02:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I read somewhere that Florcruz dropped out of the relay, offering to give up his place to a Sichuan hero. I also read that his daughter took part. Is it official that he took part in the end? Ohconfucius (talk) 01:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not aware of any reliable source that said he didn't go. Benjwong (talk) 00:44, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually if you list just the family of Florcruz participating. It should also be notable enough. Benjwong (talk) 18:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how... Notability is not inherited. There is now no source to indicate that he actually did take part, after he announced he would give up his place, so I think his name should be removed. Ohconfucius (talk) 05:31, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I removed this. Not because the person did or didn't run. Is because of many conflicting dates in the sources. It is possible that this person is still scheduled? I cannot find info that said the family did participate. Benjwong (talk) 04:40, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

One caption in this article mentions a cancelled Taiwan route, and it is not brought up again. I think this needs explanation in the article text - could a knowledgeable person add it? Tempshill (talk) 03:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

==Macau 120 Torchbearers== Unlike the list of Hong Kong 120 torchbearers, the order shown in the list of Macau 120 Torchbearers on the article is the same as the real order in the torch relay in Macau on 3rd May 2008. Shrimp wong (talk) 05:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 05:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 06:01, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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