As debated many time before on this forum, to bring a lesser BMW car to M standards, one would have to not only chip the engine, but upgrade the suspension, transmission, chassis, and beef up the structural components of the engine, and lose the warranty. So such “I can chip the engine for less” arguments are null and dull. Not to mention the 135 is one ugly car.

True, but this would only apply to track racing...

I'm sure a Procede 335 would keep right up with an M3 on normal American stop and go (red light, green light) or highway racing. That's where most people are going to compete with their cars anyways.

How many are actually going to use the suspension, transmission and chassis upgrades of the M3 to their advanatage in normal American conditions? Or how many are going to join a race club and push thier 70K M3 to the limit? .05% maybe.

Have you driven a M3--on a public road or elsewhere? If you have, how can you say that there won't be a significant difference in the way the two cars will feel and the amount of satisfaction you will get that will be the direct result of all those other dimensions I've mentioned--regardless of the driving conditions? If you haven't, then you really don't have any basis for saying what you are saying.

Have you driven a M3--on a public road or elsewhere? If you have, how can you say that there won't be a significant difference in the way the two cars will feel and the amount of satisfaction you will get that will be the direct result of all those other dimensions I've mentioned--regardless of the driving conditions? If you haven't, then you really don't have any basis for saying what you are saying.

Doesn't matter if I drove one or not.

And Im not talking about satisfaction or feel. Im talking about normal American stop and go racing (red light , green light) or highway racing. Thats where most people will put their cars up against others and thats where I think a procede 335 will stay with an M3.

I doubt the M3 transmission, chassis, or suspension will matter much in these conditions. It will all come down to 0-60 time and the M3 and Procede 335 are neck in neck in this regard.

Heck, a Mustang Cobra will hang with these cars in normal conditions. Catch my drift?

And Im not talking about satisfaction or feel. Im talking about normal American stop and go racing (red light , green light) or highway racing. Thats where most people will put their cars up against others and thats where I think a procede 335 will stay with an M3.

I doubt the M3 transmission, chassis, or suspension will matter much in these conditions. It will all come down to 0-60 time and the M3 and Procede 335 are neck in neck in this regard.

Heck, a Mustang Cobra will hang with these cars in normal conditions. Catch my drift?

If your metric is purely 0-60 acceleration, then you should simply consider buying the 135, the Cobra, the EVO, or the base Corvette and so on for much less. One of the main reasons why people buy the M3 is because of the way it handles and feels as a whole--on the street or the track. If you don't care about that, then yes, you would be overspending by buying a M3, and are better off with chipping a 135 or 335. According to your line of thinking, there is no point in buying a 612 since the Elise is almost as fast at 0-60. That doesn't make any sense.

If your metric is purely 0-60 acceleration, then you should simply consider buying the 135, the Cobra, the EVO, or the base Corvette and so on for much less. One of the main reasons why people buy the M3 is because of the way it handles and feels as a whole--on the street or the track. If you don't care about that, then yes, you would be overspending by buying a M3, and are better off with chipping a 135 or 335. According to your line of thinking, there is no point in buying a 612 since the Elise is almost as fast at 0-60. That doesn't make any sense.

You're absolutely right.

But Im not buying an M3 to race it. Im buying it for the reasons you just stated. It has the performance, luxury, exclusivity, look, feel and handling that totally set it apart from every car you just described. I want the total package, so I'm ordering an M3.

All I'm saying is that on pure DAILY American "need for speed" driving conditions the 335 Procede should be able to keep up with an M3 (along with many other cars).... that's pitting 0-60 times against each other and nothing more because the M transmission, chassis, or handling will not factor into these DAILY driving conditions. Put them on the track and that's another story...

And Im not talking about satisfaction or feel. Im talking about normal American stop and go racing (red light , green light) or highway racing. Thats where most people will put their cars up against others and thats where I think a procede 335 will stay with an M3.

I doubt the M3 transmission, chassis, or suspension will matter much in these conditions. It will all come down to 0-60 time and the M3 and Procede 335 are neck in neck in this regard.

Heck, a Mustang Cobra will hang with these cars in normal conditions. Catch my drift?

No, 0-60mph times won't matter much, it will 20-80mph and 40-100mph sprints that come into play. Highways arnt strait, to take curves at 110mph in an M3 VS a 335 will be considerably in the M's favor!

Drag racing depends on the surface and driver. Low torque, high-rev cars have an enherent advantage because they will hook-up more consistantly. With 16 speakers, plush leather interior and quite insterior sound, solid car. I really don't car if a Mustang Cobra can hang with me for a few rows of the gear box. Most likely you'll be the winner without ever touching 3rd gear.

But Im not buying an M3 to race it. Im buying it for the reasons you just stated. It has the performance, luxury, exclusivity, look, feel and handling that totally set it apart from every car you just described. I want the total package, so I'm ordering an M3.

All I'm saying is that on pure DAILY American "need for speed" driving conditions the 335 Procede should be able to keep up with an M3 (along with many other cars).... that's pitting 0-60 times against each other and nothing more because the M transmission, chassis, or handling will not factor into these DAILY driving conditions. Put them on the track and that's another story...

I don't think I've made my point clear. You don't need to go on a track to notice and get satisfaction from the handling and feel of the M3. If you know your cars, you should feel the difference the instance you pull out the dealer lot, and that distinct memory should make you smile for years to come...I agree that that feeling should be amplified if you make it to the track though.

I don't think I've made my point clear. You don't need to go on a track to notice and get satisfaction from the handling and feel of the M3. If you know your cars, you should feel the difference the instance you pull out the dealer lot, and that distinct memory should make you smile for years to come...I agree that that feeling should be amplified if you make it to the track though.

Read the middle paragraph of my last post. I read you loud and clear man.

Nope. And it will run you over $200 for an oil change.. plan on about $800+ for the 15K mile service.... plus parts on Porsches out of warranty will floor you!

The worst dealer service I ever got was from a Porsche dealer.... and I have tried about 4 different ones here in the LA area. They continue to disappoint me.

Since I would consider buying a '06 911S if BMW prices this thing too high, what would matter to me is the 30k or 40k service. And, I'm curious, what do you mean by poor service? Did they not do the job right?

Since I would consider buying a '06 911S if BMW prices this thing too high, what would matter to me is the 30k or 40k service. And, I'm curious, what do you mean by poor service? Did they not do the job right?

I think the 30K was still under $1000.

I had some problems with a 2001 Boxster S that were not fixed after several attempts. I did a little research on my own and finally TOLD them what to fix, and that solved the problem. That car had a bad cat convertor, bad wheel bearings, rear main seal oil leak (very common problem, and mine leaked again not long after the 1st fix), and a bad throwout bearing... all before 28K miles, which is when I got rid of it.

Porsches are great to drive but they definitely have their problems and I'd say they're more high-maintenance than other brands for sure. If you know and expect that going in, you're OK. When I bought my Boxster S in 2001 though, I was expecting to get the very best quality for the "premium price" I felt I paid... and I was disappointed when I didn't.

Nope. And it will run you over $200 for an oil change.. plan on about $800+ for the 15K mile service.... plus parts on Porsches out of warranty will floor you!

The worst dealer service I ever got was from a Porsche dealer.... and I have tried about 4 different ones here in the LA area. They continue to disappoint me.

Dude Porsche is No. 1 in terms of quality service, and things dont go wrong much when you buy a porsche compared to other cars. They did a study with all car companies to find out who had the most call-ins for problems and service in general. Guess what porsche ranked? They had the least number of complaints. BMW came 3rd and Land rover was last.

I dont know why you say worst dealer service. Compared to what?

__________________

------------------------------------------------Lack of money is not the problem. It is merely a symptom of what's going on inside of you! - T Harv Eker

I had some problems with a 2001 Boxster S that were not fixed after several attempts. I did a little research on my own and finally TOLD them what to fix, and that solved the problem. That car had a bad cat convertor, bad wheel bearings, rear main seal oil leak (very common problem, and mine leaked again not long after the 1st fix), and a bad throwout bearing... all before 28K miles, which is when I got rid of it.

Porsches are great to drive but they definitely have their problems and I'd say they're more high-maintenance than other brands for sure. If you know and expect that going in, you're OK. When I bought my Boxster S in 2001 though, I was expecting to get the very best quality for the "premium price" I felt I paid... and I was disappointed when I didn't.

I guess no matter how good serivice is in general, shit happens. I guess you had a bad experience but overall they are No.1

__________________

------------------------------------------------Lack of money is not the problem. It is merely a symptom of what's going on inside of you! - T Harv Eker

I had some problems with a 2001 Boxster S that were not fixed after several attempts. I did a little research on my own and finally TOLD them what to fix, and that solved the problem. That car had a bad cat convertor, bad wheel bearings, rear main seal oil leak (very common problem, and mine leaked again not long after the 1st fix), and a bad throwout bearing... all before 28K miles, which is when I got rid of it.

Porsches are great to drive but they definitely have their problems and I'd say they're more high-maintenance than other brands for sure. If you know and expect that going in, you're OK. When I bought my Boxster S in 2001 though, I was expecting to get the very best quality for the "premium price" I felt I paid... and I was disappointed when I didn't.

My friend had a somewhat similar experience with her Boxter with low miles and service. She had a light on--I think the airbag light. After 3 trips to the dealer and $800 spent on service, the light still kept coming on, and they couldn't figure it out. These might be exceptions, but still not the best stories to hear...