One thing about condemnation that it is hate based. if you despise Ben then everything you perceive is tainted. You are no longer able to think critically and subjectively.

I've read despise and hate magically inserted into my bitching. Flat out criticizing is not despising, nor is it hate. I love Ben's style of play, however, I want to see more progression out of him than he's shown. He is capable as has demonstrated in flashes. It certainly wouldn't hurt to add more depth to his repertoire or for him to be more accepting of other lines of thinking.

He is outright bitching about not getting his way, well - some of us think his way isn't always the best. That's about it. No hate or despising about it.

Despise - that would happen if he is found to have gotten in trouble, yet again. That stuff I despise. I wasn't there, so I wouldn't really know - but if it happens enough times - then we can talk about those strong words.

__________________MacReady: Beaver pics - don't think we're in much shape to do anything about this threadChilds: Well, what do we do?MacReady: Why don't we just . . .wait here and post for a little while longer . . . see what happens?

I've read despise and hate magically inserted into my bitching. Flat out criticizing is not despising, nor is it hate. I love Ben's style of play, however, I want to see more progression out of him than he's shown. He is capable as has demonstrated in flashes. It certainly wouldn't hurt to add more depth to his repertoire or for him to be more accepting of other lines of thinking.

He is outright bitching about not getting his way, well - some of us think his way isn't always the best. That's about it. No hate or despising about it.

Despise - that would happen if he is found to have gotten in trouble, yet again. That stuff I despise. I wasn't there, so I wouldn't really know - but if it happens enough times - then we can talk about those strong words.

If you feel you need to criticize his personality or his demeanor, than I will not debate, cause he is human and subject to shortcomings. You want to talk about his bad play and I will debate you also but I see his shortcomings on the field as well. But if you come on the forums and but all the blame on Ben and/or do not acknowledge his contributions to this team even now and in the past then yes, I will debate. If you compare other teams QB past and present and do not present all the facts then yes I will dig up the complete story. My post was to point out that it is easy to say I have B&G glasses because of my fandom for the Steelers and him, but if you have a personal hate for a person its is just as easy to overlook any good. Criticism is not hate, but hate can be disguised as criticism.

If you feel you need to criticize his personality or his demeanor, than I will not debate, cause he is human and subject to shortcomings. You want to talk about his bad play and I will debate you also but I see his shortcomings on the field as well. But if you come on the forums and but all the blame on Ben and/or do not acknowledge his contributions to this team even now and in the past then yes, I will debate. If you compare other teams QB past and present and do not present all the facts then yes I will dig up the complete story. My post was to point out that it is easy to say I have B&G glasses because of my fandom for the Steelers and him, but if you have a personal hate for a person its is just as easy to overlook any good. Criticism is not hate, but hate can be disguised as criticism.

A. I've stated I loved what he did when he took the league by storm
B. I've stated in the same breath that while I think he is one tough SOB, and maybe the toughest QB I've ever watched in modern football, I don't believe that will carry him any farther. I believe he needs to evolve and buy in to some other people and ideas that are there for a reason. I believe he doesn't have the right answers. There is no hate included with that assessment - I simply think this is a turning point in his career, and what helped him achieve greatness, is not the same recipe that will help him sustain and/or increase it.
C. I've also stated that while I love him as our QB, I think in general he doesn't seem like a likable guy. If he is a great fantastic person and everything that everyone has said about him is untrue, then I think he needs to do himself a favor and just not talk to the media a whole lot. It only feeds into the supposed rumors about him and accusations towards him.

I grew up on the if it looks like shit, smells like shit, it usually is . . . philosophy. I can't assume to know Ben, but I know i don't like what I hear from him, nor do I like what others have been saying about him, and accusing him of. This is why it is extremely easy to criticize his game - on top of his past wrongs, he seems to be above everyone else and doesn't need help - he seems ego-crazy and a genuine jerk. Sorry, but that's what he is portraying. Maybe he likes to have fun with the media and fans - but then again, what type of person would want to portray themselves that way - even if it was a big joke? When this personality comes out when something is going to affect his control, and in my assessment - ego, it only backs up what many think about it. Gutsy QB, one of the best ever, but a real jerk, who actually could have been better if he would have stopped thinking so highly of himself and above others.

I have a ton of shortcomings, and I've acknowledged his accomplishments plenty. He isn't getting some special gold star for being a millionaire and contributing to charities, which, I think any good person should do anyways - that doesn't mask the reputation - true or false as it is - he gained by his own doings.

__________________MacReady: Beaver pics - don't think we're in much shape to do anything about this threadChilds: Well, what do we do?MacReady: Why don't we just . . .wait here and post for a little while longer . . . see what happens?

Like I said I m not going to debate his character, you have your opinion and I can not make you change off of that. I used the word condemnation instead of criticize for a reason, that being is criticism is not a bad word, people can withstand criticism and can even learn and improve from constructive criticism. Condemnation on the other hand indicates that Ben has been condemned and not just criticized, example Bens play up to this point in his career has been not only criticized but condemned as not even worthy of mentioning. His accomplishments are given no weight as to the success of the Steelers during his career and I for one think that is just wrong and crazy. I know others post of Bens exploits to the point of bringing some of this on him but do not blame him for that . Dont like him as a person, put him way down on your wish list of QBs you want, just give the man some due to his efforts on the field. I personally did not like Porters antics on or off the field, he was not always a factor in games, but I never misconstrued his part as valued member of a Superbowl team.

Brady, Brees, Manning, and Rodgers can sling the ball around and their teams win, their teams are successful when they throw the ball because they are truly the Elite QB's. They WIN despite throwing the ball a lot and putting up statistics.

So why aren't the Steelers winning when they let Ben throw the ball around every week? Why is the offense still mediocre even after they "opened it up"? Simple. Because Ben is not in their class. He is who he is. He is better suited to be a game manager who rose to the occasion when called for it. Ever notice that ever since the Steelers opened up the offense, the "Ben Magic" started to fade?

You know who else was a great Game Manager? Joe Montana. No one won better than him. Not saying Ben is Joe Montana, but simply put, he is who he is.

Brady, Brees, Manning, and Rodgers can sling the ball around and their teams win, their teams are successful when they throw the ball because they are truly the Elite QB's. They WIN despite throwing the ball a lot and putting up statistics.

So why aren't the Steelers winning when they let Ben throw the ball around every week? Why is the offense still mediocre even after they "opened it up"? Simple. Because Ben is not in their class. He is who he is. He is better suited to be a game manager who rose to the occasion when called for it. Ever notice that ever since the Steelers opened up the offense, the "Ben Magic" started to fade?

You know who else was a great Game Manager? Joe Montana. No one won better than him. Not saying Ben is Joe Montana, but simply put, he is who he is.

You think the Haley offense should be considered "opened up?" I didn't know ball control and run, run, pass was "opened up." I mean, I guess it was like that in the last 2 minutes of the game when they needed Ben to bail them out from their own stubbornness.

Brady, Brees, Manning, and Rodgers can sling the ball around and their teams win, their teams are successful when they throw the ball because they are truly the Elite QB's. They WIN despite throwing the ball a lot and putting up statistics.

So why aren't the Steelers winning when they let Ben throw the ball around every week? Why is the offense still mediocre even after they "opened it up"? Simple. Because Ben is not in their class. He is who he is. He is better suited to be a game manager who rose to the occasion when called for it. Ever notice that ever since the Steelers opened up the offense, the "Ben Magic" started to fade?

You know who else was a great Game Manager? Joe Montana. No one won better than him. Not saying Ben is Joe Montana, but simply put, he is who he is.

problem is 3 of the 4 qbs you have listed havent played in the super bowl as many times as ben has