Dorset BoyOne of the TJs needs to be told you need a breakdown to have an offside line. Last penalty to France was when there was no breakdown.
Illegal slide tackle with studs up on Daly. Would be red in soccer!

Agreed on the ďtackleĒ on Daly. Even if the French player was stretching to reach the ball with his foot he didnít succeed and instead tripped Daly. Odd.

Dorset BoyOne of the TJs needs to be told you need a breakdown to have an offside line. Last penalty to France was when there was no breakdown.
Illegal slide tackle with studs up on Daly. Would be red in soccer!

shipwreckedI don't get it OB you not bothered by the 6N, your not bothered by Bath in a Final if your only interested in winning performances at World and Champions Cups you may have to wait quite a long time!

I was there when England won the WC so 6N and AI's don't really do it for me now.

As for Bath, you're right I'm not interested in tin pot trophies, but am desperate to see Bath win a PL and CC. Although not convinced I'll ever fulfill that ambition.

shipwreckedI don't get it OB you not bothered by the 6N, your not bothered by Bath in a Final if your only interested in winning performances at World and Champions Cups you may have to wait quite a long time!

I was there when England won the WC so 6N and AI's don't really do it for me now.

As for Bath, you're right I'm not interested in tin pot trophies, but am desperate to see Bath win a PL and CC. Although not convinced I'll ever fulfill that ambition.

To be honest the 6 Nations hasnít been great. Italy languish at the bottom of the table with zip. England have not yet had a convincing performance. Scotland have had one good game and then needed massive help from Owens. Wales were contained by England and poor vs Ireland. Ireland have been head and shoulders above all. Itís beem a pretty forgettable championship so far.

shipwreckedI don't get it OB you not bothered by the 6N, your not bothered by Bath in a Final if your only interested in winning performances at World and Champions Cups you may have to wait quite a long time!

I was there when England won the WC so 6N and AI's don't really do it for me now.

As for Bath, you're right I'm not interested in tin pot trophies, but am desperate to see Bath win a PL and CC. Although not convinced I'll ever fulfill that ambition.

What is disappointing about England was that the troubles securing the breakdown were well predicted by everyone. It dictated the whole tempo of the game and once again made England's backs look ineffective which is undeserved, they had very few gaps to go for and the possession was unreliable, making for hesitancy and a shallow alignment.

Eddie must pick a specialty 7, get hands first on the ball and get the right side of the refs.

Talking of refs, we weren't helped by France being allowed to not release the tackled player.

I would have liked to see Ford or Farrell kick to the corners more in the first half, we had the French lineout wobbling and should have made more of that and also created more space wide by pushing wingers back. More variety from 10/12 needed.

The TV camera work was as poor as the game from Marseille a few weeks ago, rubbish angles and replays totally devoid of the key moments.

Lastly who gets to decide the questions asked of Eddie after the match? Terrible questions, they might as well just poke him with a sharp stick, just looking for a reaction. Poor TV all round.

A lot of very familiar failings to bath fans. Weak at the breakdown. Messing up attacking lineouts at key times. No offloading. Limited attacking game. A few players not performing to their potential - but no one pushing through to challenge them (partially in this case because the likes of Robson, cipriani, Armand haven't been given the opportunity). No attack coach.

The concept of Brown and Wigglesworth is 'finishers' would be hilarious if it weren't so painful.

Oh, and the thing that got me screaming at the TV was we were 2.5 metres from winning the game at the end but had single forwards trying to drive through multiple defenders - why, why why didn't they double or triple up on the pick and drive? I really think we could have got under the posts.

B4thB4ckOh, and the thing that got me screaming at the TV was we were 2.5 metres from winning the game at the end but had single forwards trying to drive through multiple defenders - why, why why didn't they double or triple up on the pick and drive? I really think we could have got under the posts.

Agree with this, Eddie stated after the game he had leaders out there, but England were given a reprieve when the goofed up the 5 man line out, having been out muscled for the previous 79 minutes its not rocket science to work out you need to secure ball with a 5 to 2 overlap on the right !!

They panicked, just like in 2015.

Finally, the backs didn't get any decent ball so the next comment might not be fair but George Ford didn't look to me to be bossing the game through kicking, passing or running. Have the wheels come off the Ford/Farrell axle? If so where is the spare?

I think a few myths have been busted:
- We need 3 backrowers, not 3 second rows
- The pullback pass is soooo 2015...
- Ben Te'o is a Mike Brown in the centres (makes yards, doesn't pass) and yet worse in defence.
- Elliot Daly's attack is still undermined by his defence and defensive positioning.
- Sam Simmonds is not effective when we're outmuscled.
- Eddie Jones isn't the messiah...

For the love of god please let this be the end of the experimental back row. We have masses of young talent and yet we are shoehorning a lock in there. Either Lawes is good enough to be a starting second row or he doesn't start.

Eddy also has to accept he has made a rod for his own back by not looking beyond Youngs and Care.

Teo is an impact sub not a starter.

Brown seems to have the status of a comfort blanket that EJ simply can't bear to be rid of. The idea that he can offer more than Watson is laughable.

Launchberry a bit under pat today but at least has credit in the bank.

The biggest concern is the total inability to adjust the game plan during play.

Itís as damming of Eddie as anything, that he has turned Joseph into a completely blunt instrument. Ford/Faz have worked some nice little moves for themselves, but they are both fly-halves. 3 second-rows. Guys who are not going to lift the WC. Time to get off the pot Eddie.

Congrats Ireland, comfortably the hest team in this year's 6N. Eddie has some decisions to make at 3, 7, 9 and 10.

Be interesting to see if he's prepared to roll the dice against Ireland or if he goes with the same faces. Let's be honest England have not played really well since the Australia tour so its a good reality check. Bomber must have a wry smile on his face.

Funny you should say that Joe, Much of Ireland back play revolves around Sexton and Leinster.

Leinster's fortunes took an upward climb shortly after Stuart Lancaster's appointment. England scored a pile of points under Lancaster and he seems to have got Leinster going as well.

Don't worry though it's an extremely remote possibility he will return to England's coaching squad in the future. Paticularly since there is a rumour he might become the next Ireland Coach after Schmidt.

It reminded me of the last WC. Honest yeoman like Robshaw but with badly executed plans and a mess in the midfield and back row. Simmons is way too small at 8 in a tight game. We were told that Ciprianini would be picked when he was one of the 2 best 10s in the country. Looks like that time has come too late.

It seems that the WC is coming at the wrong time for England. We have peaked & have now quite quickly reverted to how we played in the last WC. I think itís to do with injuries & a perceived lack of good back rows though we could argue about that. Joseph has become a fairly blunt instrument, rarely breaking the game line & EJ doesnít have much faith in the alternatives. Though Ford doesnít seem to have the flair he showed during his early years at Bath, he & Farrell are still one of the few strengths of the team. EJ would probably have picked Underhill to help the breakdown problem but was scuppered when someone stood on his toe. The Premiership clubs are not playing well & the alternatives donít look that enticing now or EJ has found them wanting. I fear we will now slip back into the pack & the WC dream is disappearing over the horizon.

Much more French intensity yesterday than we have seen so far in this 6N and England were no match, they weren't allowed to or didn't get their game going. I enjoyed some of the French off the cuff stuff and was a bit bored by England tbh. I can't see the value that Teo is supposed to bring and am fed up with players being picked out of position e.g. Lawes and Daly. I honestly wondered yesterday if EJ's England team peaked in 2016 with their 3-0 win down under - we were light years away from that intensity/style of play yesterday and those Aussies were better than yesterdays French team. Still, Bath are in a final and we can puncture the Irish GS balloon next week. It will be fascinating to see what EJ does this coming week...

Start with a proper 7, then you don't need the extra muscle at 6 and 8 to wrestle opponents off the ball, then you get on the right side of the ref, then you get more pens and quicker ball, then you don't need Teo to bash through crowded defences and the backs can see more space.

B4thB4ckStart with a proper 7, then you don't need the extra muscle at 6 and 8 to wrestle opponents off the ball, then you get on the right side of the ref, then you get more pens and quicker ball, then you don't need Teo to bash through crowded defences and the backs can see more space.
Has Simmonds played 7?

Because England do not have any size in the backs, we have to use other guys to carry the ball. When Billy is out and Hughes cannot get his legs going, then we struggle. Lawes is not a monster carrier, Mako looks tired and only Sinkler offered any hope. It looked like we had a plan to have May punch up a bit, and he had a go, but it is not the solution.

As for the future. The front five looks about the best we have. Maybe Sinkler to start and hope that Mako and Itoje can refind their form. I think we need to plan without Billy V, so we need some options. A genuine open-side is a must and then 2 CJ Stander type guys.

We then need to look at the midfield and consider a big 12, with Daly at 13 and then Watson, Nowell and Another in the back 3. I had hoped that Slade would step up, but he hasn't, so unless they want Cipriani at 10, then I think we need to hope Tuilagi can rediscover his magic. The lack of options are amazing, given how well we do at U20 level. We need some size in the backs!

Eddy spoken a lot about the media pre-match, and its effect on the morale of the team and individual players. Perseverance with players and strategies that just aren't working wood make it appear his seem his overriding priority is to show his detractors in the press that he's right and they're wrong.

I had an interesting chat with a mate who'd just done a refs course about the breakdown. Most on here will be aware of these changes - but it was interesting to me and may be an insight as to why England are struggling so much
The gist of the conversation was:
They have introduced the one man forming a ruck rule (which creates offside lines) to counter the Italian tactics last year, they have also introduced a requirement to have lifted the ball when you are first man in, rather than just have hands on it. The training ref specifically mentioned itoje. What he does when he goes in as first man, or when he tackles then gets up to contest is to put his hands on the ball and either push it into the ground or into the opposition player on the floor. The theory here being that you are likely to get a penalty for not releasing or not rolling away.
Now the guidance is that in order to be considered to be 'in possession' you must have some small scrap of daylight under the ball, eg you are lifting it up. If you don't then you get called for hands in the ruck or not allowing for a fair contest or not allowing the tackled player to place the ball. When you've been trained to do something and become very effective at it, it is difficult to change quickly. It's fine margins, but if the ref trainer is aware of Itoje specifically, then you can bet your boots the international refs are too.

B4thB4ckStart with a proper 7, then you don't need the extra muscle at 6 and 8 to wrestle opponents off the ball, then you get on the right side of the ref, then you get more pens and quicker ball, then you don't need Teo to bash through crowded defences and the backs can see more space.
Has Simmonds played 7?

Who is the proper 7?
(Not a converted lightweight number 8)

I don't have the answer to that question but was just thinking of who already in the squad has the pace to suit that role.

There is time to adjust the back row before the RWC, I don't actually agree with the media hype. Time available to find the spare wheel and bolt it on.

With regards to the 7 - England have missed a trick I think - it was an area of weakness before the last RWC and we've always been shoe horning another back rower into that position.
With all their resources I'd have thought plenty of 7's could have been tried and developed since then - Haskill was always a stop gap, and has anyone actually been better than Robshaw?
Poor planning in a crucial area Eddie....

With regards to back row, the first priority has to simply pace to get to the break down or the backs if they are there to do the back row role.

So many times in the game French players, Bastareaud on 2 or 3 equations got over the ball at the breakdown, when we had it incidentally, and forced a penalty. In fairness Ford was there but Ford v Bastareaud, come on....

Simply have to be there first.

Lawes was poor, not back row, cant keep the ball. The problems are up front but can't be solved in a week.

We just look Stale, lions and Aviva and Eddie's training really taking its toll. I think it will be different next season but this team isn't of the quality like the 2003 lot that can still win ugly when off form. With some rest and Billy, Manu and Ben Young's back we will be better, but as with England for the past 15 years now our world cup success will hang on the back row and midfield balance which is such a problem since the holy trinity and tinds/greenwood.

sirtidychrisWe just look Stale, lions and Aviva and Eddie's training really taking its toll. I think it will be different next season but this team isn't of the quality like the 2003 lot that can still win ugly when off form. With some rest and Billy, Manu and Ben Young's back we will be better, but as with England for the past 15 years now our world cup success will hang on the back row and midfield balance which is such a problem since the holy trinity and tinds/greenwood.

I know its not regarded as ethical and it would take years, but it might be time to do a dolly the sheep on the 2003 team

Underhill might be a good option on the blindside but he is not the open side solution. You might get away with 3 guys like him in the back row but not one and then 2 number 8s. Curry, Underhill and Vunipola looks a better option.

cb2Underhill might be a good option on the blindside but he is not the open side solution. You might get away with 3 guys like him in the back row but not one and then 2 number 8s. Curry, Underhill and Vunipola looks a better option.

I can feel a possibility of a bit of residency poaching on the horizon, by the way is Steffan Armitage still playing?

Toast and MarmiteFor the love of god please let this be the end of the experimental back row. We have masses of young talent and yet we are shoehorning a lock in there. Either Lawes is good enough to be a starting second row or he doesn't start.
Eddy also has to accept he has made a rod for his own back by not looking beyond Youngs and Care.

Teo is an impact sub not a starter.

Brown seems to have the status of a comfort blanket that EJ simply can't bear to be rid of. The idea that he can offer more than Watson is laughable.
Launchberry a bit under pat today but at least has credit in the bank.

The biggest concern is the total inability to adjust the game plan during play.

sirtidychrisWe just look Stale, lions and Aviva and Eddie's training really taking its toll. I think it will be different next season but this team isn't of the quality like the 2003 lot that can still win ugly when off form

The 2003 lot only really had to worry about 'winning ugly when off form in their last days - ie the Q-F onwards of the World Cup. At this stage - 18 months/2 years from the WC they were absolutely slaughtering home nations teams. Eddie's conservatism in selection and playing style is looking increasingly farcical. Instead of flogging the Lions to death in the last set of AIs he could have properly tested squad depth. Even the few flair players that he's picked - Ford and Joseph primarily - seem to have ended up blunter than a boiled potato. He finally dropped Brown for the one game and conditions that practically every other pundit would have retained him for (and also lost himself a lot of media goodwill with his ridiculous outburst after the Wales game). His quote about England being 40% fitter will be plastered up in every opposition changing room.

And he's talking complete garbage in response to the loss: "I donít think itís a technical problem. There are other issues apart from being technical and a lot of it has got to do with power.Ē .... how can anyone take him seriously when he complains about England being underpowered.

And he's now lost Lawes to injury pretty much directly as a result of his flawed selection. When he took Launchbury off on Saturday it meant Lawes had to play to the end of the game irrespective of what state he was in.

He's got enough time to fix it, but currently the most 'out of form' player in England is Eddie himself.

I happen to think that fatigue IS playing a pretty big part.
Not only in performance on the pitch, but also affecting selection (fatigue increase risk of injury); but I think that Eddie is beasting the squad, not just before the tournie started, but also during it. And I think he's doing so deliberately.
I think Eddie is treating this 6N as a mock-RWC. He's piling the pressure on the players; he's using fallow weekends to beast them in training so that they're constantly fatigued for 8 weeks; he's refusing to bring in any players from outside of his core squad unless he absolutely has to. He's seeing how far he can push them before performances drop off. Hopefully, he'll use that information when developing his pre-RWC training camps.

I think he sees this tournie as comparatively disposable. He needed his first 2 years (all tournies) to get to know the players, for them to know him, to cut the dead wood, and to develop systems for these players [I think he's underestimating our players, but hey]. He needed wins to establish himself.
He needs 12 months leading up to the RWC to build up to it; when wins are again, all important to build confidence. This 6N, and possibly this summer in South Africa are his best opportunities (as in, the least consequences) to risk losing matches. I happen to think he's found the point at which performances drop off, and that he also underestimated the opposition - pretty much all of the opposition. I think he expected to be able to beast them hard enough for performances to drop; but that we'd still win all our matches except Ireland. Now it may be that he hadn't accounted for injuries, or that he hadn't accounted for resurgence from Italy, Scotland and France; or that he had and the gamble just hasn't paid off.

Of course, in spite of the above, I still think he's got his tactics wrong. Specifically I think the Prem has been reffing the breakdown differently to the Pro14 and Top14 competitions - which is down to the ref.s (it can hardly be a surprise that Barnes, Owens and Garces might lead their officials in slightly different directions at the breakdown); and coaches, have come up with different ways to handle the breakdown accordingly. However, it's also Eddie's fault for not spotting, and adapting to this. Fair enough in November; but after that, and most of the EPRC has been played out; he should have noted it, and changed his plan accordingly.

I've formed a similar impression. As evidence I'd cite the training in Georgia. I thought at the time that was CRAZY. We looked dead on our feet after Wales. Did we think that we needed to "bulk up" mid tournament? Did we feel we'd be challenged by a particular technique the Georgians have? No, it was just a beasting. If England were an AP club it would make sense pre-season, just before the AP final? Crazy.

It's a bit of a straw to clutch at, but as said, everyone's looking for one. I think I'd add, and I think its a subtly different point to the one you make, that quite often I find going beyond what is required for a certain test in preparation means that the actual test can make that final test much the easier.

Personally I think we just seem to be playing too much rugby, we have a very successful kicking game and Saracen's style blitz defence, which we've rarely seen this 6N, maybe its down to missing Ben Youngs.

Originally he had talked of resting all the Lions for the Autumn games. That might have been a better idea. He could then have looked at a few new faces with the pressure off them. Not much seems to come from these tours and the odd Saxons game we used to have. A few played well in SA but never got a look in; others did well in Argentina but then don't get the opportunity to feature in the 6N. EJ appears to want to find the best 30 players and then make a team from them, and not to find the best players playing in their correct positions. Time to find out who the best English open-side is in the Premiership and pick them. The same with other positions. He keeps messing about at 13 but Daly has never really been tried there.

All 4 of those occassions, he was replaced by Ben Te'o; who has twice been selected for bulk, and twice been trialled against Italy; on 3 of those occassions he was retained on the bench. So JJ has been selected for 23 out of 24 matches - hardly "keeps messing about" IMO.

Daly is a little like Slade in that he has been injured at crucial times, and very likely would have been permanent 15 by now if he hadn't.

However, it's rubbish that Eddie has got to this stage and is still susceptible to a couple of injuries. When you look at how decimated other teams are (and, let's face it, the SH teams that we face in the AIs are only ever at about 2/3rds full-strength), England really have no excuse to be so dependent on, essentially, one player.

I'm more of the 'get the best players on the park' school of selection, than 'only pick them in their club position'.

Daly's adapted pretty well to the wing for England and the Lions, and England never look worse with him out there.

In a back 3 with Daly, Watson and Nowell, I wouldn't be that bothered which numbers they had on their backs. But it's all a bit irrelevant if we keep butchering possession, and if the players are flogged within an inch of their lives and keep getting injured. Watson is surely next up for some sort of fatigue-induced injury.

OptimistI'm more of the 'get the best players on the park' school of selection, than 'only pick them in their club position'.
Daly's adapted pretty well to the wing for England and the Lions, and England never look worse with him out there.

In a back 3 with Daly, Watson and Nowell, I wouldn't be that bothered which numbers they had on their backs. But it's all a bit irrelevant if we keep butchering possession, and if the players are flogged within an inch of their lives and keep getting injured. Watson is surely next up for some sort of fatigue-induced injury.

Now that, I can agree with.
Quite honestly, I'm happy perming 3 starters and a 23 from May, Watson, Daly and Nowell; and don't really mind who gets the 23 shirt - I don't mind the idea of Daly at 15, just bear in mind that he hasn't played there since (IIRC) the 2012-23 season.

For now though, it's fiddling with the deckchairs whilst the titanic sinks.
We need to sort out 2,3,6,7,9 and 12 as much higher priorities; and which all need to be sorted before we start worrying too much about the make-up of our back 3.

2 Hartley just isn't the player he used to be, but still works hard; he's just not as good as George, LCD or Taylor.
3 Cole is an absolute passenger, and the sooner he's overtaken by Sinkler, Williams, Thomas and Hill the better. They're already better rugby players than he is; it's just that he has a tonne of caps, whilst they don't. Of course, he may find some form if he's actually given a rest for a change.

6 Robshaw is a 6, and nothing else; Lawes and Itoje are locks, and nothing else. Haskell and Underhill are better suited to 6 than to 7 as well, and should ideally be considered there.
7 The best 7s in the country would be Curry, Curry and Simmonds, with Ellis and Evans worth a look once fit and in form.

9 I hate to type this, but Youngs is our best option; he's just not very good - even though he's discovered a little consistency under Eddie; he still wouldn't make the starting XV for any other top 10 nation. We're just not blessed with alternatives - though there's still no excuse for having Wgglesworth on the bench.
12 Farrell is coming along, and in fairness, is learning pretty well - of course, he'd learn much quicker if he played there for Sarries, but that's not about to happen. I certainly don't wince to see him there. Te'o should also be considered for the 12 shirt, as should Devoto once he's back to full fitness (and form). If those 2 things happen, and/or Manu finds some form and learns some vision, then Farrell can also fight Ford for the 10 shirt.

The best 15 players are not the best team if they can't cover every position on the pitch OR if they don't suit the coaches game plan.
So I think the question is more:
Do you pick the best 15 players and adapt the game plan to fit?
OR
Do you decide your game plan first and then pick the best 15 players to play that plan?

Given the depth of talent England has compared to any other nation except NZL, I'm in the latter camp. If you're Scotland you don't have that luxury. If you're Wales, like it or not, you get Warrenball.

OptimistI'm more of the 'get the best players on the park' school of selection, than 'only pick them in their club position'.

I agree that in the backs there is some overlap, the back three for example and 13 and wing. However, as a general rule I would not be of that school.
Perhaps you will quote the Ford/Farrell axis as a good example but the fact that its limited to those players has hampered the development of Englands backs.

Fortunately both Ford and Farrell are rarely injured but we have developed no real alternative at 12, we keep putting in "good players' at IC when we should have given some experience to an AP centre even if he wasn't the best attacking option, at least he could have defended his channel.

This muddled thinking has carried through to the forwards where second and back row are deemed interchangeable. In the meantime the role of flanker has evolved requiring a breakdown skill that involves folding double to get turnover ball.

Its a very much harder job for a tall second row to hinge as easily as a player 6 inches shorter. I'd say the role is incompatible.

I'd prefer it if the international player in a field position was actually a specialist in that position and any inadequacies were made up by team work.

It reminds me of the time when Lipman wasn't picked or wasn't given a run of games (only 10 caps) even though he was the best open-side in the land at the time. I imagine the selectors thought that there were better options within the squad, and that is what we are getting now with Robshaw. Funny how EJ has changed his mind on that one since the last WC. England should at least give a genuine an open-side a chance to show that they are not good enough.

3 Cole is an absolute passenger, and the sooner he's overtaken by Sinkler, Williams, Thomas and Hill

Thomas? Henry Thomas?! At the moment I'm worried if he even makes the Bath bench. He's, at best, decent around the park, but is a weak scrummager and his discipline is utterly abject. Cole will be starting tighth head at the world cup.

It's disappointing that Eddie is whingeing about how the game has changed and England are behind that. With New Zealand it's almost invariably the case that they are the ones who bend the game to their will. I thought Eddie might be the man to be inventive like that.

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