On the surface, the Patriots have held their own when it comes to putting up points on offense. During their superbowl winning years, they ranked (let's say) top 5 in points given.

2007 was the nightmarish ending to an almost perfect year. Fluke, defenses fault, offenses fault, coaches fault - who knows.

The offense, again, shouldn't be fans' greatest concern. They can put up points on most average or second tier defenses. IMO, when the Patriots have difficulty putting up points against certain teams - IT HAS TO BE THE DEFENSE that wins those kinds of games.

Seriously, one CAN'T look at the numbers and say there's no relationship between the number of passing yards given up/game (and their relative ranking vs. other teams) and say there is no relationship between that stat and pts given up per game.

Which, is why I think that the patriots need to get back into the top 5 in pts. given up per game. Seems that the best way to do that is get opponents off the field by improving our pass rush and coverage by our defensive backs.

Sure, the offense isn't perfect and could use some depth at certain positions, but it still seems to me that the defense has bigger weaknesses and the road to another SB ring is more dependent on improvements w/ our pass rush and defensive backs. When trying to improve this team for another SB run - it's about building a team that can beat the likes of the 49ers, Ravens, or Giants, aka, the Patriots' kryptonite.

Because a lot of fans are brainwashed reading rustys post over and over about our offense not getting it done. They didnt bother to do the research themselves and see that we always get less posession come postseason due to our D not getting off the field and everyone is sitting their Scratching their heads wondering why we only scored 13 pts. If your defense cant stop anyone and give up 4 TDs in 4 redzone appearances the offense has to be perfect and thats impossible sooooo, You Blame Brady and everyone wants MORE weapons now and the same p*ss poor defense! Yaaaaah! We signed Arrington and Cole back , surely things will change now right??

LOL

How can you choose to throw 45 times, most of those passes, say 75% out of a shotgun, be due to a lack of "possessions"? That doesn't make any sense at all, especially when it's by choice with a lead.

If they were behind, then you'd be correct.

NE's D has been a top 1-3 D in the last 3 years in creating turnovers, which means they're actually adding in more possessions than most teams, even if they aren't stonewalling on 3 and outs like some locked down D in a passing era. So, you lose there, too.

What team ran more plays on offense this year than NE's? ZERO. NE led the NFL in plays run and it's not because Tom Brady is infallible in the shotgun spread.

This is the most moronic premise ever. NE has leads in games and the offense chooses to end up throwing 45 times, mostly from the shotgun. THAT is your problem.

i don't need to brainwash anyone, Shizzles. I can source game after game after game of this finesse garbage letting our own D down and our fanbase down.

This "how many possessions" we have is total bunk, especially when the offense gets a bunch more than the average, and the yield still isn't that good.

It's like you're standing there like a 12 year old girl demanding the D create at least 2 turnovers in case Brady throws his 2 INTs when he throws 40+ times against good or great Ds. Everything is about ignoring Brady and his choice of running the offense. If you aren't All Pro, you aren't in the Circle of Trust, which may be part of BB's approach to fix Brady this offseason.

No more binkies. We've had too many seasons of binkies.

The fact is, Brady and the strategy, derived by Brady's choice to run this from the shotgun, is a massive failure yet he still thinks he can somehow get it done in that base formation. Don't deviate from the methodology, the one that works, which is patience and Brady under center.

This shotgun preference has sucked! Sucked! Do you really enjoy sitting back knowing that our own offense, when it doesn't score for entire halves in that crap, somehow is this infallible style?

Brady can't go on with it.

He can't. It's over. Deal with it. We have a 36 year old QB who blew two SBs with it and missed his chances.

Sure, the offense isn't perfect and could use some depth at certain positions, but it still seems to me that the defense has bigger weaknesses and the road to another SB ring is more dependent on improvements w/ our pass rush and defensive backs. When trying to improve this team for another SB run - it's about building a team that can beat the likes of the 49ers, Ravens, or Giants, aka, the Patriots' kryptonite.

Because a lot of fans are brainwashed reading rustys post over and over about our offense not getting it done. They didnt bother to do the research themselves and see that we always get less posession come postseason due to our D not getting off the field and everyone is sitting their Scratching their heads wondering why we only scored 13 pts. If your defense cant stop anyone and give up 4 TDs in 4 redzone appearances the offense has to be perfect and thats impossible sooooo, You Blame Brady and everyone wants MORE weapons now and the same p*ss poor defense! Yaaaaah! We signed Arrington and Cole back , surely things will change now right??

LOL

How can you choose to throw 45 times, most of those passes, say 75% out of a shotgun, be due to a lack of "possessions"? That doesn't make any sense at all, especially when it's by choice with a lead.

If they were behind, then you'd be correct.

NE's D has been a top 1-3 D in the last 3 years in creating turnovers, which means they're actually adding in more possessions than most teams, even if they aren't stonewalling on 3 and outs like some locked down D in a passing era. So, you lose there, too.

What team ran more plays on offense this year than NE's? ZERO. NE led the NFL in plays run and it's not because Tom Brady is infallible in the shotgun spread.

This is the most moronic premise ever. NE has leads in games and the offense chooses to end up throwing 45 times, mostly from the shotgun. THAT is your problem.

i don't need to brainwash anyone, Shizzles. I can source game after game after game of this finesse garbage letting our own D down and our fanbase down.

This "how many possessions" we have is total bunk, especially when the offense gets a bunch more than the average, and the yield still isn't that good.

It's like you're standing there like a 12 year old girl demanding the D create at least 2 turnovers in case Brady throws his 2 INTs when he throws 40+ times against good or great Ds. Everything is about ignoring Brady and his choice of running the offense. If you aren't All Pro, you aren't in the Circle of Trust, which may be part of BB's approach to fix Brady this offseason.

No more binkies. We've had too many seasons of binkies.

The fact is, Brady and the strategy, derived by Brady's choice to run this from the shotgun, is a massive failure yet he still thinks he can somehow get it done in that base formation. Don't deviate from the methodology, the one that works, which is patience and Brady under center.

This shotgun preference has sucked! Sucked! Do you really enjoy sitting back knowing that our own offense, when it doesn't score for entire halves in that crap, somehow is this infallible style?

Brady can't go on with it.

He can't. It's over. Deal with it. We have a 36 year old QB who blew two SBs with it and missed his chances.

It's over.

pats with brady and pats D=12+ wins

pats without brady and pats D= 9 wins

No idea what that means. You offer nothing into these discussions as usual.

What he is trying to say is that without Brady this is a mediocre team...nothing more. He's 100% correct. Does that help, dumbo?

Sure, the offense isn't perfect and could use some depth at certain positions, but it still seems to me that the defense has bigger weaknesses and the road to another SB ring is more dependent on improvements w/ our pass rush and defensive backs. When trying to improve this team for another SB run - it's about building a team that can beat the likes of the 49ers, Ravens, or Giants, aka, the Patriots' kryptonite.

Because a lot of fans are brainwashed reading rustys post over and over about our offense not getting it done. They didnt bother to do the research themselves and see that we always get less posession come postseason due to our D not getting off the field and everyone is sitting their Scratching their heads wondering why we only scored 13 pts. If your defense cant stop anyone and give up 4 TDs in 4 redzone appearances the offense has to be perfect and thats impossible sooooo, You Blame Brady and everyone wants MORE weapons now and the same p*ss poor defense! Yaaaaah! We signed Arrington and Cole back , surely things will change now right??

LOL

How can you choose to throw 45 times, most of those passes, say 75% out of a shotgun, be due to a lack of "possessions"? That doesn't make any sense at all, especially when it's by choice with a lead.

If they were behind, then you'd be correct.

NE's D has been a top 1-3 D in the last 3 years in creating turnovers, which means they're actually adding in more possessions than most teams, even if they aren't stonewalling on 3 and outs like some locked down D in a passing era. So, you lose there, too.

What team ran more plays on offense this year than NE's? ZERO. NE led the NFL in plays run and it's not because Tom Brady is infallible in the shotgun spread.

This is the most moronic premise ever. NE has leads in games and the offense chooses to end up throwing 45 times, mostly from the shotgun. THAT is your problem.

i don't need to brainwash anyone, Shizzles. I can source game after game after game of this finesse garbage letting our own D down and our fanbase down.

This "how many possessions" we have is total bunk, especially when the offense gets a bunch more than the average, and the yield still isn't that good.

It's like you're standing there like a 12 year old girl demanding the D create at least 2 turnovers in case Brady throws his 2 INTs when he throws 40+ times against good or great Ds. Everything is about ignoring Brady and his choice of running the offense. If you aren't All Pro, you aren't in the Circle of Trust, which may be part of BB's approach to fix Brady this offseason.

No more binkies. We've had too many seasons of binkies.

The fact is, Brady and the strategy, derived by Brady's choice to run this from the shotgun, is a massive failure yet he still thinks he can somehow get it done in that base formation. Don't deviate from the methodology, the one that works, which is patience and Brady under center.

This shotgun preference has sucked! Sucked! Do you really enjoy sitting back knowing that our own offense, when it doesn't score for entire halves in that crap, somehow is this infallible style?

Brady can't go on with it.

He can't. It's over. Deal with it. We have a 36 year old QB who blew two SBs with it and missed his chances.

It's over.

pats with brady and pats D=12+ wins

pats without brady and pats D= 9 wins

No idea what that means. You offer nothing into these discussions as usual.

What he is trying to say is that without Brady this is a mediocre team...nothing more. He's 100% correct. Does that help, dumbo?

No, it doesn't. Brady had a very good D from 2001-2004 with better QBing back then.

Recently, the D has been younger and not as good, but he's also been worse. How does that excuse him, dumbo?

This doesn't even count his SB 42 meltdown with an atrocious display by he and the offense in 2007.

Did anyone watch SB 46 in the 4th qtr when he melted down? What does the D have to do with how subpar he is running the offense?

How does it excuse him? Well he's not the one who builds the team, so you can't pin the lack of a defense on him - that's on the "best GM ever" shoulders. You can also say if you remove him from the equation, we wouldn't of had to worry about Brady "being subpar running the offense" in the playoffs, because we would never sniff the post season. By the way, if the defense hadn't played so poorly in super bowl 46, Brady would of won the MVP in that game. Hands down...no one even close.

The fact that you can sit here and try to blame Brady for anything while we have perhaps the most average defense in the NFL, is very showing of how uneducated you are as a fan of football. It's embarrassing to see.

Sure, the offense isn't perfect and could use some depth at certain positions, but it still seems to me that the defense has bigger weaknesses and the road to another SB ring is more dependent on improvements w/ our pass rush and defensive backs. When trying to improve this team for another SB run - it's about building a team that can beat the likes of the 49ers, Ravens, or Giants, aka, the Patriots' kryptonite.

Because a lot of fans are brainwashed reading rustys post over and over about our offense not getting it done. They didnt bother to do the research themselves and see that we always get less posession come postseason due to our D not getting off the field and everyone is sitting their Scratching their heads wondering why we only scored 13 pts. If your defense cant stop anyone and give up 4 TDs in 4 redzone appearances the offense has to be perfect and thats impossible sooooo, You Blame Brady and everyone wants MORE weapons now and the same p*ss poor defense! Yaaaaah! We signed Arrington and Cole back , surely things will change now right??

LOL

How can you choose to throw 45 times, most of those passes, say 75% out of a shotgun, be due to a lack of "possessions"? That doesn't make any sense at all, especially when it's by choice with a lead.

If they were behind, then you'd be correct.

NE's D has been a top 1-3 D in the last 3 years in creating turnovers, which means they're actually adding in more possessions than most teams, even if they aren't stonewalling on 3 and outs like some locked down D in a passing era. So, you lose there, too.

What team ran more plays on offense this year than NE's? ZERO. NE led the NFL in plays run and it's not because Tom Brady is infallible in the shotgun spread.

This is the most moronic premise ever. NE has leads in games and the offense chooses to end up throwing 45 times, mostly from the shotgun. THAT is your problem.

i don't need to brainwash anyone, Shizzles. I can source game after game after game of this finesse garbage letting our own D down and our fanbase down.

This "how many possessions" we have is total bunk, especially when the offense gets a bunch more than the average, and the yield still isn't that good.

It's like you're standing there like a 12 year old girl demanding the D create at least 2 turnovers in case Brady throws his 2 INTs when he throws 40+ times against good or great Ds. Everything is about ignoring Brady and his choice of running the offense. If you aren't All Pro, you aren't in the Circle of Trust, which may be part of BB's approach to fix Brady this offseason.

No more binkies. We've had too many seasons of binkies.

The fact is, Brady and the strategy, derived by Brady's choice to run this from the shotgun, is a massive failure yet he still thinks he can somehow get it done in that base formation. Don't deviate from the methodology, the one that works, which is patience and Brady under center.

This shotgun preference has sucked! Sucked! Do you really enjoy sitting back knowing that our own offense, when it doesn't score for entire halves in that crap, somehow is this infallible style?

Brady can't go on with it.

He can't. It's over. Deal with it. We have a 36 year old QB who blew two SBs with it and missed his chances.

It's over.

pats with brady and pats D=12+ wins

pats without brady and pats D= 9 wins

No idea what that means. You offer nothing into these discussions as usual.

What he is trying to say is that without Brady this is a mediocre team...nothing more. He's 100% correct. Does that help, dumbo?

No, it doesn't. Brady had a very good D from 2001-2004 with better QBing back then.

Recently, the D has been younger and not as good, but he's also been worse. How does that excuse him, dumbo?

This doesn't even count his SB 42 meltdown with an atrocious display by he and the offense in 2007.

Did anyone watch SB 46 in the 4th qtr when he melted down? What does the D have to do with how subpar he is running the offense?

How does it excuse him? Well he's not the one who builds the team, so you can't pin the lack of a defense on him - that's on the "best GM ever" shoulders. You can also say if you remove him from the equation, we wouldn't of had to worry about Brady "being subpar running the offense" in the playoffs, because we would never sniff the post season. By the way, if the defense hadn't played so poorly in super bowl 46, Brady would of won the MVP in that game. Hands down...no one even close.

The fact that you can sit here and try to blame Brady for anything while we have perhaps the most average defense in the NFL, is very showing of how uneducated you are as a fan of football. It's embarrassing to see.

Brady is worse as a QB while not winning SBs that are winnable as compared to earlier in his career.

My premise beats yours.

Only Brady can change it.

Brady is a much better QB than back in the day, The difference is BB's inherited defense as apposed to his recent pathetic, build on the fly for 6 years, Defense.

It was simply a more complete TEAM back then as apposed to the top rated O and bottom feeder D, team????, they put out there.

If you're wondering why TB's shoulders are always listed on the injury report, it's because he always has to carry the D. What a waste of a HoF's career.

Your premise beats no ones. Never has and never will. Now, as suggested earlier, go bash TB over on the Jest board. Chances are, you have and they kicked you out of there too.

Agree with OP that defensive improvements are more important, but at the risk of sounding like Rusty, our offense has not exactly been scintillating in recent playoff runs.

One thing that really bothers me is how many Pats fans seem content winning the division each year, especially in such a weak division. Yeah, we have a great regular season offense each year. So what? With Brady (almost) still in his prime, the goal should be Super Bowl runs and wins. We need improvements on both sides of the ball to make that happen.

Also, not to belabor the obvious, but we haven't lost any key pieces on defense and we have on offense. And most of the receivers and tight ends we are counting on have not been able to stay on the field in recent years. I'll grant you that if all our key offensive guys stay healthy we should be terrific, even into the postseason, but it's fair to understand why some fans might have a concern or two about that is it not?

Agree with OP that defensive improvements are more important, but at the risk of sounding like Rusty, our offense has not exactly been scintillating in recent playoff runs.

One thing that really bothers me is how many Pats fans seem content winning the division each year, especially in such a weak division. Yeah, we have a great regular season offense each year. So what? With Brady (almost) still in his prime, the goal should be Super Bowl runs and wins. We need improvements on both sides of the ball to make that happen.

Also, not to belabor the obvious, but we haven't lost any key pieces on defense and we have on offense. And most of the receivers and tight ends we are counting on have not been able to stay on the field in recent years. I'll grant you that if all our key offensive guys stay healthy we should be terrific, even into the postseason, but it's fair to understand why some fans might have a concern or two about that is it not?

/QUOTE]

true, depends on your time reference. Plus, apart from Wilfork - who was there to actually lose? Jones is a new addition. Nink is fine, but noone else wants him. BB has been able to coach up defensive players - but the results defensively isn't good enough. This has been going on for years.

The defense certainly has some remaining issues, but if you're comfortable playing the season with this receiving corps., then you better pray that they change their offensive philosophy. They either need to dumb-down the Erhardt-Perkins system, or dump it altogether. We've seen receiver after receiver come in here, either through the draft or free agency, and show an inability to pick up the system because it's too complicated. Why do you think Welker has been here this long? Why do you think they brought in Lloyd? For crying out loud, why do you think Branch is still kicking around after 58 years in the league? Because they're about the only people remaining in the league that have any knowledge of the system.

I couldn't care less about whether or not Amendola is better than Welker or if Jones is better than Lloyd. The thing that overly concerns me is that all we've heard for years is how complicated the reads and verbage in the system are... New receivers just don't understand it apparently... And as soon as that happens, as it has for several seasons, Brady gets frustrated and starts forcing the ball to one or two receivers in traffic that he feels he can "trust," completely, ignoring an open guy somewhere else. Say whatever you want about how great we are statistically... we are... in the regular season against jag defenses... As soon as we start facing solid playoff d's, we become very limited, because the bottom line is, they know we have no deep threat and you can only flood the middle of the field with so many guys, so they do the same.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't issues on the defensive side of the ball, but until they simplify the system, the offense will fall flat when it means the most.

That only started happening post Weis, though. Remember in 2002 when Brady wanted to sling it to Donald Hayes and rookie David Givens with Troy Brown? Brady wasn't very good, tossed a bunch of INTs and they ended up scaling it back and then drafted Branch in 2003.

My point is, they've gone off the rails with the silliness in the complexity of the verbiage and plays.

All of this started with the shotgun spread obsession and race to 40+ passes with leads, too.

2005, 2006 and then it didn't matter in 2007 because they just told Moss to focus on 4 routes and draw doubles for Wes and Gaffney.

When you have Torry Holt coming in here from the greatest show on turf saying how complex it is, well, then that should tell everyone something.

Sure, the offense isn't perfect and could use some depth at certain positions, but it still seems to me that the defense has bigger weaknesses and the road to another SB ring is more dependent on improvements w/ our pass rush and defensive backs. When trying to improve this team for another SB run - it's about building a team that can beat the likes of the 49ers, Ravens, or Giants, aka, the Patriots' kryptonite.

This obsession is due to the rise of Fantasy Football, plain and simple. Fantasy football pulled a lot of new fans into following the NFL and lot of old fans and what is the main focus of fantasy football? Offense! Defense is the ugly step child in FF, therefore these new and old fans bring that offense centric outlook to discussions about the NFL. By that I mean since you need to be heavily invested in knowing the production of offensive players such as QBs, WRs, TEs and RBs, and don't need to know anything about actual defensive players, these people can only write intelligently about the offensive side of football and really only write about the so called "skill positions".

Sure, the offense isn't perfect and could use some depth at certain positions, but it still seems to me that the defense has bigger weaknesses and the road to another SB ring is more dependent on improvements w/ our pass rush and defensive backs. When trying to improve this team for another SB run - it's about building a team that can beat the likes of the 49ers, Ravens, or Giants, aka, the Patriots' kryptonite.

Because a lot of fans are brainwashed reading rustys post over and over about our offense not getting it done. They didnt bother to do the research themselves and see that we always get less posession come postseason due to our D not getting off the field and everyone is sitting their Scratching their heads wondering why we only scored 13 pts. If your defense cant stop anyone and give up 4 TDs in 4 redzone appearances the offense has to be perfect and thats impossible sooooo, You Blame Brady and everyone wants MORE weapons now and the same p*ss poor defense! Yaaaaah! We signed Arrington and Cole back , surely things will change now right??

LOL

How can you choose to throw 45 times, most of those passes, say 75% out of a shotgun, be due to a lack of "possessions"? That doesn't make any sense at all, especially when it's by choice with a lead.

If they were behind, then you'd be correct.

NE's D has been a top 1-3 D in the last 3 years in creating turnovers, which means they're actually adding in more possessions than most teams, even if they aren't stonewalling on 3 and outs like some locked down D in a passing era. So, you lose there, too.

What team ran more plays on offense this year than NE's? ZERO. NE led the NFL in plays run and it's not because Tom Brady is infallible in the shotgun spread.

This is the most moronic premise ever. NE has leads in games and the offense chooses to end up throwing 45 times, mostly from the shotgun. THAT is your problem.

i don't need to brainwash anyone, Shizzles. I can source game after game after game of this finesse garbage letting our own D down and our fanbase down.

This "how many possessions" we have is total bunk, especially when the offense gets a bunch more than the average, and the yield still isn't that good.

It's like you're standing there like a 12 year old girl demanding the D create at least 2 turnovers in case Brady throws his 2 INTs when he throws 40+ times against good or great Ds. Everything is about ignoring Brady and his choice of running the offense. If you aren't All Pro, you aren't in the Circle of Trust, which may be part of BB's approach to fix Brady this offseason.

No more binkies. We've had too many seasons of binkies.

The fact is, Brady and the strategy, derived by Brady's choice to run this from the shotgun, is a massive failure yet he still thinks he can somehow get it done in that base formation. Don't deviate from the methodology, the one that works, which is patience and Brady under center.

This shotgun preference has sucked! Sucked! Do you really enjoy sitting back knowing that our own offense, when it doesn't score for entire halves in that crap, somehow is this infallible style?

Brady can't go on with it.

He can't. It's over. Deal with it. We have a 36 year old QB who blew two SBs with it and missed his chances.

It's over.

So I think russ brings up a good point here, no not his baby argument the shotgun spread - if any argument has been overplayed its that one. I am generally in agreement that the offense probably has to take more of the blame in most of the patriots postseason losses since their last SB victory. That is certainly the case since the 2007 14 point offensive output that Brady so famously mocked pregame when wondering if Plax was going to play defense.

Anyway, Russ made a point about the defense being a turnover generating machine. I didn't look that up so I'll take Rusty's word for it - he knows everything, right?

Since 2007 in playoff games that NE lost (5 games), NE has generated only 3 turnovers. I still think the offense deserves more blame. Their point production was so significantly below their average that I just don't see much of a way around that. But - what if some of that production was kick started by defensive turnovers that were all but non-existent in those losses?

While the defensive point allowance was closer to its average than the offense in those losses, maybe the defense's inability to get turnovers when it regularly did helped to stifle the offense.

The defense certainly has some remaining issues, but if you're comfortable playing the season with this receiving corps., then you better pray that they change their offensive philosophy. They either need to dumb-down the Erhardt-Perkins system, or dump it altogether. We've seen receiver after receiver come in here, either through the draft or free agency, and show an inability to pick up the system because it's too complicated. Why do you think Welker has been here this long? Why do you think they brought in Lloyd? For crying out loud, why do you think Branch is still kicking around after 58 years in the league? Because they're about the only people remaining in the league that have any knowledge of the system.

I couldn't care less about whether or not Amendola is better than Welker or if Jones is better than Lloyd. The thing that overly concerns me is that all we've heard for years is how complicated the reads and verbage in the system are... New receivers just don't understand it apparently... And as soon as that happens, as it has for several seasons, Brady gets frustrated and starts forcing the ball to one or two receivers in traffic that he feels he can "trust," completely, ignoring an open guy somewhere else. Say whatever you want about how great we are statistically... we are... in the regular season against jag defenses... As soon as we start facing solid playoff d's, we become very limited, because the bottom line is, they know we have no deep threat and you can only flood the middle of the field with so many guys, so they do the same.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't issues on the defensive side of the ball, but until they simplify the system, the offense will fall flat when it means the most.

That only started happening post Weis, though. Remember in 2002 when Brady wanted to sling it to Donald Hayes and rookie David Givens with Troy Brown? Brady wasn't very good, tossed a bunch of INTs and they ended up scaling it back and then drafted Branch in 2003.

My point is, they've gone off the rails with the silliness in the complexity of the verbiage and plays.

All of this started with the shotgun spread obsession and race to 40+ passes with leads, too.

2005, 2006 and then it didn't matter in 2007 because they just told Moss to focus on 4 routes and draw doubles for Wes and Gaffney.

When you have Torry Holt coming in here from the greatest show on turf saying how complex it is, well, then that should tell everyone something.

I don't think complexity is the problem.

So how do you explain how WR's like Galloway, Holt, Hayes, Ocho etc... have had success in other sytems come here and couldn't grasp how they run the offense here.

older and less engaged in learning. Belichick low balls their pay so they don't put in as much effort.

Sure, the offense isn't perfect and could use some depth at certain positions, but it still seems to me that the defense has bigger weaknesses and the road to another SB ring is more dependent on improvements w/ our pass rush and defensive backs. When trying to improve this team for another SB run - it's about building a team that can beat the likes of the 49ers, Ravens, or Giants, aka, the Patriots' kryptonite.

Because a lot of fans are brainwashed reading rustys post over and over about our offense not getting it done. They didnt bother to do the research themselves and see that we always get less posession come postseason due to our D not getting off the field and everyone is sitting their Scratching their heads wondering why we only scored 13 pts. If your defense cant stop anyone and give up 4 TDs in 4 redzone appearances the offense has to be perfect and thats impossible sooooo, You Blame Brady and everyone wants MORE weapons now and the same p*ss poor defense! Yaaaaah! We signed Arrington and Cole back , surely things will change now right??

LOL

How can you choose to throw 45 times, most of those passes, say 75% out of a shotgun, be due to a lack of "possessions"? That doesn't make any sense at all, especially when it's by choice with a lead.

If they were behind, then you'd be correct.

NE's D has been a top 1-3 D in the last 3 years in creating turnovers, which means they're actually adding in more possessions than most teams, even if they aren't stonewalling on 3 and outs like some locked down D in a passing era. So, you lose there, too.

What team ran more plays on offense this year than NE's? ZERO. NE led the NFL in plays run and it's not because Tom Brady is infallible in the shotgun spread.

This is the most moronic premise ever. NE has leads in games and the offense chooses to end up throwing 45 times, mostly from the shotgun. THAT is your problem.

i don't need to brainwash anyone, Shizzles. I can source game after game after game of this finesse garbage letting our own D down and our fanbase down.

This "how many possessions" we have is total bunk, especially when the offense gets a bunch more than the average, and the yield still isn't that good.

It's like you're standing there like a 12 year old girl demanding the D create at least 2 turnovers in case Brady throws his 2 INTs when he throws 40+ times against good or great Ds. Everything is about ignoring Brady and his choice of running the offense. If you aren't All Pro, you aren't in the Circle of Trust, which may be part of BB's approach to fix Brady this offseason.

No more binkies. We've had too many seasons of binkies.

The fact is, Brady and the strategy, derived by Brady's choice to run this from the shotgun, is a massive failure yet he still thinks he can somehow get it done in that base formation. Don't deviate from the methodology, the one that works, which is patience and Brady under center.

This shotgun preference has sucked! Sucked! Do you really enjoy sitting back knowing that our own offense, when it doesn't score for entire halves in that crap, somehow is this infallible style?

Brady can't go on with it.

He can't. It's over. Deal with it. We have a 36 year old QB who blew two SBs with it and missed his chances.

It's over.

pats with brady and pats D=12+ wins

pats without brady and pats D= 9 wins

No idea what that means. You offer nothing into these discussions as usual.

What he is trying to say is that without Brady this is a mediocre team...nothing more. He's 100% correct. Does that help, dumbo?

No, it doesn't. Brady had a very good D from 2001-2004 with better QBing back then.

Recently, the D has been younger and not as good, but he's also been worse. How does that excuse him, dumbo?

This doesn't even count his SB 42 meltdown with an atrocious display by he and the offense in 2007.

Did anyone watch SB 46 in the 4th qtr when he melted down? What does the D have to do with how subpar he is running the offense?

Fallacy of the day. Brady was not "better quarterbacking" or a better quarterback from 01-04 than he has been from 2007 on. Every bit of statistical evidence proves that. And such a statement cannot be distilled down to winning a game (the superbowl). There are 21 other starters on the team as well as special teams players that have a stake in the outcome. Brady neither plays defense nor returns kicks or kicks fg's etc. To define his effectiveness soley by a team victory or loss is ridiculous.

The defense certainly has some remaining issues, but if you're comfortable playing the season with this receiving corps., then you better pray that they change their offensive philosophy. They either need to dumb-down the Erhardt-Perkins system, or dump it altogether. We've seen receiver after receiver come in here, either through the draft or free agency, and show an inability to pick up the system because it's too complicated. Why do you think Welker has been here this long? Why do you think they brought in Lloyd? For crying out loud, why do you think Branch is still kicking around after 58 years in the league? Because they're about the only people remaining in the league that have any knowledge of the system.

I couldn't care less about whether or not Amendola is better than Welker or if Jones is better than Lloyd. The thing that overly concerns me is that all we've heard for years is how complicated the reads and verbage in the system are... New receivers just don't understand it apparently... And as soon as that happens, as it has for several seasons, Brady gets frustrated and starts forcing the ball to one or two receivers in traffic that he feels he can "trust," completely, ignoring an open guy somewhere else. Say whatever you want about how great we are statistically... we are... in the regular season against jag defenses... As soon as we start facing solid playoff d's, we become very limited, because the bottom line is, they know we have no deep threat and you can only flood the middle of the field with so many guys, so they do the same.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't issues on the defensive side of the ball, but until they simplify the system, the offense will fall flat when it means the most.

That only started happening post Weis, though. Remember in 2002 when Brady wanted to sling it to Donald Hayes and rookie David Givens with Troy Brown? Brady wasn't very good, tossed a bunch of INTs and they ended up scaling it back and then drafted Branch in 2003.

My point is, they've gone off the rails with the silliness in the complexity of the verbiage and plays.

All of this started with the shotgun spread obsession and race to 40+ passes with leads, too.

2005, 2006 and then it didn't matter in 2007 because they just told Moss to focus on 4 routes and draw doubles for Wes and Gaffney.

When you have Torry Holt coming in here from the greatest show on turf saying how complex it is, well, then that should tell everyone something.

I don't think complexity is the problem.

So how do you explain how WR's like Galloway, Holt, Hayes, Ocho etc... have had success in other sytems come here and couldn't grasp how they run the offense here.

older and less engaged in learning. Belichick low balls their pay so they don't put in as much effort.

If they were low balled why did they sign here?

Putting in the time??? they were there the same amount of time every day as everyone else was required to be. Perhaps they didn't put in extra time but that being said they had ample time.

Funny every single one of those WR's admitted they couldn't grasp the system.

jri - I should rephrase. yes I think the offense is complex. I think systems with long term successful QB's get that way. They can just continue to add and add and add. What I am saying is that for some of these guys I wonder if they just didn't study hard enough. They already knew how to play this game, right? They weren't getting paid top dollar to learn the new system, right? They could learn the basics and not the nuances and they would be fine. I am saying that I think this may be these guys mentality.

So I guess I am not saying you are wrong, I just think some of these vets may not have been interested in working that hard.

I'll say this, and you may not like it. I have no way to prove it but I wonder. Early in Brady's career he was always at the facility. Now his life is pulling him in different directions. He's the guy that can get these receivers up to speed in the offseason. Is he working with them less? Maybe/Maybe not.

Another thing based on your comment - if you are right about the complexity, and I think to some degree you are. Why would Belichick want to bring in some of these old guys for a year who might not be interested any longer in working that hard or learning that much? Although I've suggested that not bring back welker is a mistake (what receiver knows the system better than him?), I do think getting Amendola (and signing a long term deal) as opposed to getting another old stop-gap receiver was a good idea. Amendola will have the incentive and desire to learn the offense. I do wonder, however, if it may take a year to get fully up to speed.

Putting in the time??? they were there the same amount of time every day as everyone else was required to be. Perhaps they didn't put in extra time but that being said they had ample time.

Funny every single one of those WR's admitted they couldn't grasp the system.

One other note - if the system is so complex, then the extra time is necessary. Remember some of these guys go out to california so they can work with Brady. Manning is constantly working with his receivers in the offseason. I think the extra time is necessary.

Sure, the offense isn't perfect and could use some depth at certain positions, but it still seems to me that the defense has bigger weaknesses and the road to another SB ring is more dependent on improvements w/ our pass rush and defensive backs. When trying to improve this team for another SB run - it's about building a team that can beat the likes of the 49ers, Ravens, or Giants, aka, the Patriots' kryptonite.

Because a lot of fans are brainwashed reading rustys post over and over about our offense not getting it done. They didnt bother to do the research themselves and see that we always get less posession come postseason due to our D not getting off the field and everyone is sitting their Scratching their heads wondering why we only scored 13 pts. If your defense cant stop anyone and give up 4 TDs in 4 redzone appearances the offense has to be perfect and thats impossible sooooo, You Blame Brady and everyone wants MORE weapons now and the same p*ss poor defense! Yaaaaah! We signed Arrington and Cole back , surely things will change now right??

LOL

How can you choose to throw 45 times, most of those passes, say 75% out of a shotgun, be due to a lack of "possessions"? That doesn't make any sense at all, especially when it's by choice with a lead.

If they were behind, then you'd be correct.

NE's D has been a top 1-3 D in the last 3 years in creating turnovers, which means they're actually adding in more possessions than most teams, even if they aren't stonewalling on 3 and outs like some locked down D in a passing era. So, you lose there, too.

What team ran more plays on offense this year than NE's? ZERO. NE led the NFL in plays run and it's not because Tom Brady is infallible in the shotgun spread.

This is the most moronic premise ever. NE has leads in games and the offense chooses to end up throwing 45 times, mostly from the shotgun. THAT is your problem.

i don't need to brainwash anyone, Shizzles. I can source game after game after game of this finesse garbage letting our own D down and our fanbase down.

This "how many possessions" we have is total bunk, especially when the offense gets a bunch more than the average, and the yield still isn't that good.

It's like you're standing there like a 12 year old girl demanding the D create at least 2 turnovers in case Brady throws his 2 INTs when he throws 40+ times against good or great Ds. Everything is about ignoring Brady and his choice of running the offense. If you aren't All Pro, you aren't in the Circle of Trust, which may be part of BB's approach to fix Brady this offseason.

No more binkies. We've had too many seasons of binkies.

The fact is, Brady and the strategy, derived by Brady's choice to run this from the shotgun, is a massive failure yet he still thinks he can somehow get it done in that base formation. Don't deviate from the methodology, the one that works, which is patience and Brady under center.

This shotgun preference has sucked! Sucked! Do you really enjoy sitting back knowing that our own offense, when it doesn't score for entire halves in that crap, somehow is this infallible style?

Brady can't go on with it.

He can't. It's over. Deal with it. We have a 36 year old QB who blew two SBs with it and missed his chances.

It's over.

pats with brady and pats D=12+ wins

pats without brady and pats D= 9 wins

No idea what that means. You offer nothing into these discussions as usual.

What he is trying to say is that without Brady this is a mediocre team...nothing more. He's 100% correct. Does that help, dumbo?

No, it doesn't. Brady had a very good D from 2001-2004 with better QBing back then.

Recently, the D has been younger and not as good, but he's also been worse. How does that excuse him, dumbo?

This doesn't even count his SB 42 meltdown with an atrocious display by he and the offense in 2007.

Did anyone watch SB 46 in the 4th qtr when he melted down? What does the D have to do with how subpar he is running the offense?

Fallacy of the day. Brady was not "better quarterbacking" or a better quarterback from 01-04 than he has been from 2007 on. Every bit of statistical evidence proves that. And such a statement cannot be distilled down to winning a game (the superbowl). There are 21 other starters on the team as well as special teams players that have a stake in the outcome. Brady neither plays defense nor returns kicks or kicks fg's etc. To define his effectiveness soley by a team victory or loss is ridiculous.

Putting in the time??? they were there the same amount of time every day as everyone else was required to be. Perhaps they didn't put in extra time but that being said they had ample time.

Funny every single one of those WR's admitted they couldn't grasp the system.

One other note - if the system is so complex, then the extra time is necessary. Remember some of these guys go out to california so they can work with Brady. Manning is constantly working with his receivers in the offseason. I think the extra time is necessary.

I don't know any team that gets 100% of their players to put in "extra time". Certain people are just smarter and more adept at understanding certain concepts than others. I will agree with you that if you want to gain the absolute trust of the QB then yes the extra time will allow for developing that relationship.

The guys that are working out with Brady are honing what they already know and allowing Brady to understand what their strengths and weaknesses are.

And don't get me wrong here. I am not trying to dig at the patriots. I am just giving my honest assessment on the subject. I generally believe that many of these older vets (the ones on their last legs) don't want to work as hard and probably think they have enough knowledge that they don't have to.

I suppose the latter could be somewhat true, but if a system is significantly complex, the to get fully up to speed, the extra work will be necessary.

Pats are fortunate that Hernandez has gone out to Cali to get extra work with Brady. I think you guys will want to hope that Amendola does the same.