I've been occasionally accused of loving EVE Online. This is probably because I frequently find myself pointing at the MMO of the month and it's various design flaws and saying "EVE fixed this." After several rounds of that, I eventually ended up ending every such phrase with "- but it's not much fun." Is this one of those cases where too much ofa good thing spoils the game? Is perfect design not fun? I don't know. I'm still pondering this. EVE has many great features and is full of brilliant design decisions and MMO-innovations, and yet, I find this week's Zero Punctuation Review to be rather accurate.

He got plenty of things wrong (his reviews rarely have 100% basis in reality, although I'm sure his fanboys like to think that). But he did nail a lot of things dead-on.

The interface IS dog crap. Yahtzee may have had the wrong windows open, but that picture was an accurate depiction of how many you needed open at once. Scanner, Chat, Dronebay, Cargo, Overview (which is hell setting up without it being cluttered), and who knows what else. It gets a bit hard to see, which is made worse by the fact that you can't even seem to find a balanced camera zoom. Either it's too close and you lose awareness of your surroundings, or it's too far away and you can't see what is happening.

I also identify with the "Tactical Logistics" quip. Not so much that it is somehow impossible to find out what that specifically means, but more that everything is a jumbled mess that it can be difficult just to find out the basic things you need to start playing. The stat listings on items and skillbooks are especially disorganized. Sometimes "10% boost to blah" is displayed as "-10% boost to blah" or "1.1x boost to blah". Any request to get something like this cleaned up is always met with "oh, our database can't feasibly be modified in that way".

"Takes forever to get anywhere". Yep. Long stretches of boring warping. Totally agreed here. There are ways around it, but they are limited.

And no matter how you slice at it, EVE still requires you to do a lot of work. WORK. You are actually PAYING a company actual money to do work inside of their game. Yes, there are tricks to mitigate it. Yes, you can screw around in cheap ships from the beginning without doing much work (that's what I do). But if you ever want the big guns and big ships, or if you want to make a corp, you have to do lots and lots of boring repetitive work to get the cash for the things you need. This formula for progression in MMOs (or RPGs in general) should have been outdated a long time ago. (Yes, I know you can buy ISK... that's even more sick than paying a monthly fee to do work!)

I laughed at the "shoe on head" jab... could this be a reference to the EVE TV guy who did the same? It'd be more hilarious if it was a coincidence!

I partially disagree on the "shin kicking" part (which was hilarious). Yes, the actual engagement of EVE combat is little more than trading automatic blows, with few exceptions. But there is plenty of depth to the "pre-engagement" phase of combat. The clandestine stalking that takes place before an actual fight is a rather intense experience, and does actually take more than 3 brain cells. I would even go so far to state that there are actually a few types of "mix-up" tactics involved, if you're stalking a capable opponent. Of course, I'm thinking of low-sec or 0.0 solo or small gang combat... big fleet combat pretty much does degenerate to shin kicking.

I also disagree with the "bigger boots" quip. It's not about having bigger boots so much as having the "correct boots" (lol). A half a billion ISK ship can be easily taken down with a few 4 million ISK ships, if the 4 mill ships are fitted to take out the expensive one. Flying "Diamond-Plated ships" isn't necessarily the way to go.

"Seeing nothing but rocks"... meh, the terrain and objects in MMOs has rarely meant much anyway. Rocks, trees, lakes... its all the same in the end. Can't single out EVE for it. Not that it's excusable or anything!

Brent: "Is this one of those cases where too much ofa good thing spoils the game? Is perfect design not fun?"

1. EVE is far from perfect. Yahtzee demonstrated this perfectly with several points, even if not everything he said was accurate.

2. It's not the things right with the game making it boring, its the things wrong with it :P

I better stop before I rant outside the scope of this video. ^^;;

'Great...thanks a lot Brent.' by RadarXSubmitted on 2008-09-04 15:55:56 CSTYahtzee's annoyingly giant ego was usually enough to make me avoid his...reviews really isn't accurate. The fact he even attempted to wrap his ADD driven brain around EVE is a little shocking.

After sitting through this....I found statements I could agree with for the first time ever. Damn you for posting this Brent...

The only comfort I have is he managed like the above commenter said to misunderstand and misrepresent a few features.

'yeah' by TokenSubmitted on 2008-09-04 16:02:15 CSTIt is way too hard to break into that game. Learning how to play it isn't too bad because that part can be fun, but finding something to actually do in the game is far too hard.

'Eve is too easy' by redavniSubmitted on 2008-09-05 01:16:51 CSTI would say that perfect design includes engaging, rewarding, and challenging, group oriented PVE. Of which, Eve has none. He did hit the nail on the head when he proposed that Eve is a game for the high powered CEO type with little actual time to play. That is exactly the type of people I ran into when playing Eve. The Eve community is by far the most interesting in the MMO world.

In regards to 3up's casual rant... I understand that your limited ability in the cognition department is shared by many people on this planet, but nobody cares. Go play Hello Kitty Online. I found Eve way too easy, and bought an additional character (with way more SP than my original even) and was paying for two accounts with the ISK I earned in game within two months of starting.

'Lift a Drink and say . . .' by AlcesSubmitted on 2008-09-05 20:52:57 CSTBrilliant! I would say he is spot on.

' Hang on a second!!' by BeauturkeySubmitted on 2008-09-05 20:59:16 CST I thought Eve was the "cool" game that "smart" nerds played.

You mean to tell me that it's now WARHAMMER?

Oh god. lol

I keed. Eve is fine. Warhammer is fine.

Is it any surprise that he writes a NEGATIVE review? That's his shtick. We all know that.

Beau

'@3up' by TheRemedySubmitted on 2008-09-05 21:35:00 CSTI took his shin kicking thing to be a slight against all MMO combat. The whole "I swing my giant sword but the enemy just stands there" is a giant turn off for a lot of people. And the only real feedback you get is a number... I don't know many other games that do that besides JRPGS. But at least with those they have spells that make you go "ooooh" with their giant screen filling effects.

'Eve is a PVP game' by robinSubmitted on 2008-09-07 16:02:07 CSTEverything else in Eve is there to support the PVP. Mining & refining, exploration, invention and manufacturing are all there to keep the PVP alive and active. Even missions are there to support PVP: as well as generating cash and giving the player a shooting range to try out ship setups, missions increase NPC corporation standing which benefits most of the support roles.

If you take the PVP out of Eve there would be little point in the game at all as the support roles are incredibly boring as tasks in themselves. If you take the support roles out of Eve everyone would be flying small ships with tiny guns because no-one could afford anything bigger and lots of the sexy bigger things wouldn't be available anyway because no-one is inventing them or are unable to manufacture them because nobody would be mining and refining the minerals needed.

In Eve you have PVPing at one end and support roles at the other: if you can't find your role between those two ends you are fucked because that is all Eve has to offer!

'Yahtzee Hit the Mark Again!' by Shalimar616Submitted on 2008-09-13 20:34:07 CSTI must agree 100 percent with Yahtzee on this dog of a game. I have tried it three times; each time I ended my two week free trial saying "Why did I waste my time with this pile of shit."

As many of you who know me, I love MMOs and have played most that are out there -- at least I have tried all of the good ones. Much as he said, the game seems to favor those people who don't really want to play the game but more to those who like to sit around and talk about playing the game.

I am still awaiting a sci-fi MMO that I can own a ship, travel the galaxy, but also explore strange worlds on foot.

'gawd' by 3upSubmitted on 2008-09-17 05:02:20 CST@redavni:

"In regards to 3up's casual rant... I understand that your limited ability in the cognition department..."

lolwut? Ad-hominem attacks on the internet? Nooo...

Not sure what you're getting at. It looks like you're trying to shove words into my mouth (i.e. I didn't call the game "too hard" or whatever BS you're trying to pin on me). It may interest you to know that I actually play and enjoy the game in spite of the flaws I've listed. I don't resent CCP, and I admire the fuck out of the people there and what they have accomplished as a company. This does not excuse the poor design decisions (it just means that I don't think they're satan for allowing them to pass).

"In regards to 3up's casual rant..."

Also of interest may be that I've played EVE for nearly 2 years. I've probably PVP'd more than 90% of high sec. I haven't spent all of my time on TEH GRINDS so I could afford 50 Hacs or a Carrier. Maybe that's it? Is that what keeps me from being HARDCROAR like you?

BTW, you used the "Hello Kitty Online" meme incorrectly. The remark is in reference to those who think that EVE should be a carebear's game, and that the cut-throat mentality of scams, fighting, politics, and sabotage should be abolished. Not to those who think the interface is poorly made, or that travel or earning money in the game is mind numbing.

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