well... looks like i need to prove to some ..... that they are wrong and im right again,
hombo... you wanna say that humans arent able to aim straight at 12 o clock from hipaim position? wrong............

lets say this is the iron sight aim

now the gun position of the iron sight aim is in the middle, verticle, "12 0 clock aiming"

real humans are capable in lowering the irongsight aim to hip aim position without getting a crooked hand position, so from the iron sight aim to the hip aim you still are able to point your gun towards 12 o clock, try it out with an object, try to hold something in your hands and try to point it at 12 o clock from hip aim gun position, you'll notice it is possible, unless you are physically retarded.

now what am I doing wrong, I put the broom on my right hip, I make it point forward, and it's in line with my hip.

maybe I just don't want to destroy a few vital organs my placing an AK on full auto in front of my bladder. (you WILL take out your bladder if you do it. just like if you put it to your head, you WILL 1. break your skill, 2. mess up your brain, and 3. die.)

I think that the guns should be more accurate at the hip, but I don't think it should be very accurate. Some times I spray a good mount of bullets, from the hip, at close ranges and it doesn't kill the enemy (Most of the time these poor *i-need-a-broader-vocab* are so oblivious I pull out a knife and knife them). However, I don't think the accuracy should only be raised a little.

Dragonathan, its not so much as lining up the gun at your hips, it's controlling full auto at the hips thats sloppy. There are some militant groups that train to fire from hips, and they can't aim worth shit. Hezballah is one of the groups that tend to fire from the hips, and they get terrible kill ratios against the Israel soldiers on their occasional across the border raids, on such occasions Israel doesn't have artillery or tanks ready on the attack point. The same goes for many of the African militant groups that keep trying to over through one of the current governments, most of them train to fire from the hips, and get bad kill ratio's in their, revolution, civil war, or what every they want to call their cause.

These bad kill ratio's are true, even though they spend more time training, and begin there training at a younger age (Google The Invisible Children you may find some info about some of these groups there), because they insist on firing from the hip.

_________________No Dragon, red is my new color.I once spelt violet voilate, I will carry that cross to my grave.Dragonathan, no I can't.

but my point is, in situations like when your infront of an enemy face 2 face, about 2 meters infront of the enemy, i dont think you wanna use the iron sight because its not worth wasting a few seconds just to get the enemy on your iron sight when the enemy is so close near you, its more practical to shoot the enemy immediately from the hipaim position.

sure you can practice it, and dont talk about that i need to practice more, cause "i am" able to do allot of kills from the hip aim,

but what im trying to say here is, its not realistic if you cant even point your gun barrel towards 12 0 clock from hip aim position.

it's not that you can't do it, it's that you can't do it and live longer than another month. if you have your gun on your chest, if it's firing a larger caliber, like 7.62x39, it WILL break your ribs, and even stop your heart.

I would like to see the ability to fire as you bring up your sights, though it greatly reduces accuracy, implemented, as that has saved my hiney a LOT in call of duty.

The thing is, if you want to efficiently aim from the hip, the gun will be aiming to the right quite a bit. When you're holding it out at 12 o' clock your arms are not in a decent position to fight the recoil on a full auto. Your gun would kick up and to the side rather rapidly. However, when holding the gun in a 10-11 o' clock or 1-2 o' clock position (Depending on what arm you favor) your arms in a better position to fight off the recoil. When your aiming to the side a bit you can use more muscles efficiently, your triceps and biceps have more room to flex and extend at those positions, as well as your deltoid muscle. Those muscles are important to extending and flexing the arm, and work as antagonistically to recoil. Also, all of the synergist (Small muscles that assist the prime movers) muscles have more difficulty at a 12 o' clock position because of the assisting arm is extended, and the extended arm is forcing these muscles to stretch, and preventing further elasticity. (Elasticity of muscles is kinda like the shock in a car, and greatly assist in preventing the shaking from recoil.) Furthermore, the joints are forced to be extended to near their maximum extension. Hold a broom out at 12 o' clock, and look at your range of motion with your assisting arm. Then hold it at 10-11 or 1-2 o' clock (I don't know what hand you use) and see the range of motion with it. From the lack of motion, muscle support, and muscle control, while holding a gun at the 12 o clock, your accuracy would be worse then a blind fish (Fish can't see directly in front of them, and have horrible depth perception, not that it matters when your blind).

_________________No Dragon, red is my new color.I once spelt violet voilate, I will carry that cross to my grave.Dragonathan, no I can't.

The thing is, if you want to efficiently aim from the hip, the gun will be aiming to the right quite a bit. When you're holding it out at 12 o' clock your arms are not in a decent position to fight the recoil on a full auto. Your gun would kick up and to the side rather rapidly. However, when holding the gun in a 10-11 o' clock or 1-2 o' clock position (Depending on what arm you favor) your arms in a better position to fight off the recoil. When your aiming to the side a bit you can use more muscles efficiently, your triceps and biceps have more room to flex and extend at those positions, as well as your deltoid muscle. Those muscles are important to extending and flexing the arm, and work as antagonistically to recoil. Also, all of the synergist (Small muscles that assist the prime movers) muscles have more difficulty at a 12 o' clock position because of the assisting arm is extended, and the extended arm is forcing these muscles to stretch, and preventing further elasticity. (Elasticity of muscles is kinda like the shock in a car, and greatly assist in preventing the shaking from recoil.) Furthermore, the joints are forced to be extended to near their maximum extension. Hold a broom out at 12 o' clock, and look at your range of motion with your assisting arm. Then hold it at 10-11 or 1-2 o' clock (I don't know what hand you use) and see the range of motion with it. From the lack of motion, muscle support, and muscle control, while holding a gun at the 12 o clock, your accuracy would be worse then a blind fish (Fish can't see directly in front of them, and have horrible depth perception, not that it matters when your blind).

^not true^

READ ATTENTIVELY... my last post on this thread.

no matter what position you are standing, humans are always able to point the barrel towards 12 o lock,

for example this woman isnt even looking at the iron sight:

still she manage to point the pistol towards 12 o clock

same with rifles:

hes pointing the barrel a bit down but it still towards 12 o clock,

now back to that muscle theory,
if you say it its difficult to aim your barrel towards 12 o clock... than why is it easy to look at the iron sight with out any difficulties, the difference is that you hold your gun infront of your face instead of your chest,

see:

^he's not looking at the iron sight but still able to point the barrel towards 12 o clock^

That gun isn't at his hip. Furthermore, he's aiming the at the 12 o' clock of his face, not body. In that pic the guy has his head aimed with the gun, not the gun aimed with his body. When saying 12 o' clock, your stating what way the body is facing, not the head. The phrase, "They're on my 6," would mean nothing if he's talking about the back of his head. Take a broom, and try from the HIP, and face straight forward, don't rotate your head to face the side at all. When you run, it is best to run with your face facing with your body, not to the side.

12 o' clock means the front of the body, not the front of the head, or time.

_________________No Dragon, red is my new color.I once spelt violet voilate, I will carry that cross to my grave.Dragonathan, no I can't.

The last 2 pictures dont show the gun facing 12 o clock. 12'o'clock from the body would mean 90 degrees from the chest. Besides, anyone with their right mind using a gun will have to be holding the gun facing 12'o'clock - which means pointing away and ahead, nobody shoots at 3'o'clock - but I do nkow of some who shoot at 6'o'clock. Your terminology is therefore incorrect because 12'o'clock doesnt mean straight at a 90 degree angle, it means "Infront of you".

The last 2 pictures, although it may look like they are shooting rifles that are resting on their chests, they are not, The angle of the body in not 90 degrees to the barrel of the gun, basically if you look at them from the "exact" front, the gun isnt pointing at you. Plus, those are resting or lowered positions, a trained soldier will never fire like that for any reason unless the enemy is literally infront of him/her. As for the picture, it is 90 degrees ahead but that isnt the best way to shoot a pistol no matter what kind it is. - your arms will jerk up a lot more since both elbows will and can turn at the same angle with that position.

things to note:
1. the eyes are on the sights. there is at least one eye using the sights so a shot can be placed properly.
2. elbows are bent. this helps reduce stress on them
3. the dude second from the front is left-handed.

if the stance for handguns is changed, it should be to this.

anyway, back on topic.

try holding something in the dead center of your field of view pointed directly in front of you. is it akward? hell yes. the length from grip to hand guardcauses a LOT of muscle strain. now, beef up that broom/cane/walking stick to a 2 inch diameter steel pipe 2 feet long. is it hard to keep ther for a long time?