I find these advances quite unrealistic; I find some of the recent blizzard porn shown elsewhere equally problematic.

I called it porn because it struck me as essentially a fantasy scenario. Axis stymied with convenient landmarks (the Dnepr bend salient and Peipus-Pskov Lakes for encirclement anchors), a huge Soviet Army that had suffered practically no significant losses (I think I had lost 18 rifle divisions at that point - I had over 20 Guards units before December and 10 tank divisions hadn't been converted (this formed 1st Shock Army's exploitation force that reached the Gulf of Riga)).

I presented it in no small hope that a German player would show how they actually handle the blizzard. Is the _only_ choice to just run like the devil? In my ongoing game with AGame I allowed a bunch of pockets in '41 as Soviet (continually misjudged the range of the panzers), and I think this led him to conclude the blizzard would be weak, but I still had spectacular results (at one point I had AGC and OKH in a pocket!). I have the saves and screens and will resume the AAR at some point (probably when/if our game gets into '43 and I can talk more freely about my strategy).

I'm hoping M60 hangs in long enough, and with enough of an army, so we can see MT execute an Axis blizzard defense. I feel there must be a middle ground between running for 8 weeks and standing to be devoured in 6. From what I've see so far (only playing First Winter against humans as Soviet and once as Axis against AI) I do think the December blizzard rules for Axis combat power are too punishing.

No need for screen shot I did same to smoken, its easy to cut off hole army gruops as SHC if GHC doesn't start running the last turn of snow.

Also Flaviusx if your fighting someone who knows how to exploit the current rules set, even if GHC kills off 4+ million russians they can still pocket 50+ units.

TDV 2x pocketed 30+ units (German) and I had inflicted over 4 million loses on him.

Thats why I laugh now when SHC players have 5 million men and are not pocketing 20+ GHC units.

SHC players simply are ignorent of the tools they have in the tool kit.

Thats why I laugh now when SHC players have 5 million men and are not pocketing 20+ GHC units.

The Soviet manpower isn't the requisite, Germans holding fast is the requisite.

quote:

At them moment blizzard is very unrealistic, but regardless of that fact I really don't see how competent German player can loose significant amount of troops.

I think the keyword is experienced, not competent. They have to have seen firsthand that they're weak as kittens in December and January, and taken it to heart. My question, and I hope this games lives to that point so we can see, is how should a 'competent' Axis player handle the blizzard? Is the only real choice to carve as far east as possible and then backpedal in Dec-Jan? I'm not saying run everyone to Poland, but even a fighting withdrawal seems like it would be more punishing to the Germans than just flat out outpacing the steamroller.

I have only played 1 blizzard as Axis, and it was against the AI. I had mauled them as Flavius suggests, but the AI really isn't going to be able to run a blizzard offensive with the strategic and tactical insight of a human. I think more than one Axis player has been lulled into a false sense of security by constructing and conducting a decent blizzard defense against the AI, only to get their butts handed to them by a human.

The best Axis move in the Blizzard is a slow retreat keeping a few hexes between themselves and the Soviets. It is wise also to be wary of areas where a "fast" stack of Soviets can pinch off bends in the line.

It is very surprising how fast a Soviet army made up of refitted tank divisions and Cav corps can be. Of course eventually those tank divisions go "poof" but having 40+ mps during the blizzard causes extreme chaos.

Seminole I have only played 1 blizzard as Axis, and it was against the AI. I had mauled them as Flavius suggests, but the AI really isn't going to be able to run a blizzard offensive with the strategic and tactical insight of a human. I think more than one Axis player has been lulled into a false sense of security by constructing and conducting a decent blizzard defense against the AI, only to get their butts handed to them by a human.

Same here. I haven't seen a reasonable Sov-AI blizzard offensive yet. To get some sense what blizzard might be I recently switched an AI game from "challenging" to "hard" in Dec.41. Very impressive.

@Ketza: This buffer zone tactic worked better than anything else when playing against an improved AI.

If you wanna get real nasty use paratroops as well as fly fuel or use HQ build ups with your "mobile armies" as the Soviets during Blizzard. The results are spectacular but I must point out a bit unhistorical.

The blizzard has problems. I tend to think that a lot of Axis players do things to magnify these problems (like strip the front of too many divisions in order to preserve their morale) but even so. Op tempo is just too high. In reality it ought to be much much harder to sustain the blizzard counteroffensive than it is. The penalties involved are too global and too artificial on the Axis while at the same time the Soviet has the ability to push along the entire front with hardly a pause. It shouldn't be necessary, for example, to rely on the Finns to hold a static line up north near Leningrad. In reality the Soviets did not get much accomplished up there even fighting against the Germans once they repulsed the final push on Tikvin. It seems impossible for the German defense to create strongholds and salients in the center based on cities and lines of communication as happened in real life. Doing this in game amounts to a death sentence. Ditto for the Demyansk pocket.

I think the person thats not "competent" here is you Kamil because your simply not seeing how easy it is to run down and pocket masses of GHC units.

Well.

I lost several games as Axis and didn't lose more than equivalent of 2 divisions during blizzard. I played as a Soviet and managed to bag some units during winter operations. (Against you as well or have you forgotten?).

And my conclusion is, that Soviet mobile units do not have enough punch and mobility to break through heavily defended line or flank it before German player withdraws.

German can move their counter-attacking forces along the front and Red Army once committed in certain area cannot redeploy its troops elsewhere. So once main axis of advance are identified it is necessary to commit best units there - including mountain divisions used not for defensive but counter attacking purpose. Additionally deploying panzer units when necessary - both as a relief force and defending units. Their high mobility is the key - makes it possible to conduct fighting withdrawal even under heavy pressure.

Moreover linear defence is invitation for trouble. I go for strong-points tactics - 2-3 hexes long and 2-3 units strong formations supported by paners withdrawing as fast as is possible untill mid of January, then it is time to make the stand and let Soviet try to commit himself (herself?) to flanking manoeuvre.

Obviously to achieve necessary density of troops majority of front needs to be defended with token forces only. In won't matter in the end, because Soviet player will abandon these salients once blizzard is over.

I think the person thats not "competent" here is you Kamil because your simply not seeing how easy it is to run down and pocket masses of GHC units.

Well.

I lost several games as Axis and didn't lose more than equivalent of 2 divisions during blizzard. I played as a Soviet and managed to bag some units during winter operations. (Against you as well or have you forgotten?).

And my conclusion is, that Soviet mobile units do not have enough punch and mobility to break through heavily defended line or flank it before German player withdraws.

German can move their counter-attacking forces along the front and Red Army once committed in certain area cannot redeploy its troops elsewhere. So once main axis of advance are identified it is necessary to commit best units there - including mountain divisions used not for defensive but counter attacking purpose. Additionally deploying panzer units when necessary - both as a relief force and defending units. Their high mobility is the key - makes it possible to conduct fighting withdrawal even under heavy pressure.

Moreover linear defence is invitation for trouble. I go for strong-points tactics - 2-3 hexes long and 2-3 units strong formations supported by paners withdrawing as fast as is possible untill mid of January, then it is time to make the stand and let Soviet try to commit himself (herself?) to flanking manoeuvre.

Obviously to achieve necessary density of troops majority of front needs to be defended with token forces only. In won't matter in the end, because Soviet player will abandon these salients once blizzard is over.

Your simply totally ignorant of what SHC forses can do.

I am being nice.

You are a very skilled SHC player over all as we have played and you defeated me as SHc, but you are really ignorant of what SHC can do during blizzard.

Also ignorant does not mean u have a low IQ, just you have not figured out what SHC can do during blizzard.

Although I have only seen it done from the Soviet side with FoW, saper (in s vs Harrybanana) used broken down divisions in order to minimize retreat losses to the Germans. He lost quite a few regiments, but the idea as such seems sound.

While the Soviets does not have problems with drawing supply, they do have problems with replacements to units many MP from rail. So after an initial wave they must choose to either hold/move back or cannibalize units by merging (aggravating the AP squeeze)in order to keep units attack capable.

Problem with that broken down regiment idea is it feeds a lot of easy wins to the Sovs. Pretty sure Harry maxed out his guards count in that game. It also causes them very minor losses, and they're less likely to hit unreadiness as a result. Still, Saper did avoid a total crackup and maintained the integrity of his front.

I just got M60's T8. Looks like he has blinked first. He has been in my face for the past 3 turns but he is now back peddling somewhat. Up north it looks like he has left Leningrad and its defenders to their fate. I see a long conga line of fleeing Soviets on the rails. This has been my intention from T1. I figured if I drove hard towards Kalinin and beyond it just might force M60 to give Leningrad up. It appears to be working. So I will gain Leningrad without much of a fight really. Excellent news. I should be able to begin the withdrawal of 4th PzGp (really only Corp strength) now.

In the centre I am now driving towards Tula with a PzGp and I raided an undefended Kaluga last turn. M60 had been fighting hard around Vyazma (much to my annoyance) but he has now withdrawn from a developing salient between Vyazma and Kaluga.

In the south he had been throwing good money after bad since the big Kiev pocket but has finally left the table, but minus his chips. I now have Stalino's Ind locked down. This turn I will consolidate my gains down there and begin reducing the big pockets.

He had been ahead in the Arm race but I think he may end up losing around 80-90 Arm before the summer ends, maybe more, but not certain yet.

I am guessing M60 is not going to go down unitl late 42 atleast so you will get a Blizzard O from him. Game will probably go the distance as you will not beable to go to much father in south and center is going to stiffen allot.

Also Leningrad is not that easy to take as before last few patchs, the air drops can keep the CV high if hes doing them right. I had a hard time vs Bobo, did not take it until febuary and I had it cut off in around turn 12.

The best Axis move in the Blizzard is a slow retreat keeping a few hexes between themselves and the Soviets. It is wise also to be wary of areas where a "fast" stack of Soviets can pinch off bends in the line.

It is very surprising how fast a Soviet army made up of refitted tank divisions and Cav corps can be. Of course eventually those tank divisions go "poof" but having 40+ mps during the blizzard causes extreme chaos.

By the time of the blizzard most of the tank divisions have converted over to brigades.

Mobility is good because moving over frozen ground is not necessarily worse than regular temperature ground...perhaps even easier?

If you mange them carefully you can have 4 or 5 refitted tank divisions for blizzard. In my current game I had 5 divisions of which 3 became guards that did not go "poof" until the end of January If I recall. The time I needed them was December and they were a big part of a large pocket that was created.

If you mange them carefully you can have 4 or 5 refitted tank divisions for blizzard.

Someone mentioned once that they undergo an additional (or maybe higher percentage?) chance to covert to brigades if they are routed. So if you can keep them from getting mauled, you stand higher odds of having a few left.

Are the MP's for the tank divisions still poor, through the blizzard period?

I would say that their range into enemy territory is comparable to cavalry corps. I think the best you could hope to get out of a cavalry corps (considering morale, clear terrain, and blizzard) would be about 7 hexes. I think the farthest I've pushed a tank division is 6 hexes. Advantage is that they have more punch than a bde and convert adjacent hexes unlike a bde. I can't recall the max MP I had in Dec-Jan, and if it actually conformed to the max MP listed in 14.1.1.

Well in 1941 its pretty clear. Max 18 MP pre October and then max 25 MPs until the end of 1941.

Since there are no rules for Divs in 1942+ per manual they prolly arent covered by any special rules and presumably why ppl see 40+ MPs in 1942. Its neither a brigade nor a corps which there are rules for.

While ppl can try and save the tanks divs, by avoding routs and the roll for that. Other wise its a 20% total random chance per unit, per turn, so its a crap shoot whether u will have (m)any by 1942. U could have non or u could have 10. Given reasonble statiscal rolls u shouldnt have many if any, but play enough and u will have "the lucky rolls" and thats the joy of the RandomNumberGenerator. I do understand what ppl mean by the saving part, but really its a crap shoot on the 20% ToE rolls.

Playing SWTOR i missed 53 20% Reverse Engineering rolls in a row.. any thing can happen.

For the past two turns I had been readying for a new push in AGC. I positioned my Panzer forces in the blue circled areas on the map. The yellow lines are the threats I intended to make. My plan was to head in the path of the yellow lines if M60 did not react with enough units to stop the lines of advance. In M60’s T8 he reacted very strongly to the threats and moved many troops from in front of Moscow along the reds lines shown and built a line in front of Tula and between Kalinin/Rybinsk Res. I had envisaged such a move and was in position to strike directly toward Moscow if an opportunity were to arise. It did. So hey didle didle straight up the middle. Green lines.

In the south it’s a real mess for M60.

I have his T10 and its obvious his morale is shot. So I have offered him terms. Waiting for his reply.

While ppl can try and save the tanks divs, by avoding routs and the roll for that. Other wise its a 20% total random chance per unit, per turn, so its a crap shoot whether u will have (m)any by 1942. U could have non or u could have 10. Given reasonble statiscal rolls u shouldnt have many if any, but play enough and u will have "the lucky rolls" and thats the joy of the RandomNumberGenerator. I do understand what ppl mean by the saving part, but really its a crap shoot on the 20% ToE rolls.

Does the div/bde conversion chance start on turn 1? If I understand you correctly there is an 80% chance to remain a tank division each turn. But over 20 turns that would be about a <1% chance (per unit), right? (always preferred history to math)

Excellent campaign, MT!

Kept him off balance the whole go. Stinks you had the screenie problems the last few turns so we missed the 'dogfight' around Moscow and redeployment of 4th Pzr Grp. What was the MP to rail for your HQs during the two turn resting phase before this latest plunge? I don't have the Axis exp. to know how much fuel gets to panzers when your HQs are 50+ MP from rail. I've seen <40% fuel panzers make seemingly enormous leaps the next week. I can only feel comfortable when I cut them off.