The additional near-miss at @ 3:30 is just as bad ...and is clearly indicative of this person's totally cavalier attitude(s) too. This is precisely the kinda stuff being "debated" in Incidents right now.

The additional near-miss at @ 3:30 is just as bad ...and is clearly indicative of this person's totally cavalier attitude(s) too. This is precisely the kinda stuff being "debated" in Incidents right now.

Future fatality. Unfortunately he will most likely take someone else down with him.....

The additional near-miss at @ 3:30 is just as bad ...and is clearly indicative of this person's totally cavalier attitude(s) too. This is precisely the kinda stuff being "debated" in Incidents right now.

Future fatality. Unfortunately he will most likely take someone else down with him.....

I looked through his other videos posted - one was of him going bowling with two broken legs (on his knees). The video description didn't indicate it was a skydiving accident, but if I were a betting woman ...

I know the incident and the dropzone well. This was discussed in depth on the Australian skydiver forums.

After this incident, I know several people who now would rather land off dropzone than fly over the swoop pond to get to the intermediate landing area. This video is an example of "lower canopy has right of way" not meaning shit. When your life can so easily be taken by a moment of stupidity, assume everyone else has right of way. This could also be an example of how splitting off high performance landing areas may not completely resolve the problem of canopy collisions.

What would you do if you were the guy in the pink canopy at :23? Anyone know this guy?

If he didn't sincerely apologize right away, if I thought he didn't realize the need to change his ways, I'd take his reserve handle and throw it into the pond.

Both of these guys showed a serious lack in judgment. I think the guy under the pink canopy was acting stupidly. The guy who went ahead with his HP landing was wreckless. On the video you can see the pink canopy flying toward the swoop pond. He should have aborted his HP landing. I think they both should be grounded for a little reflection time.

On the video you can see the pink canopy flying toward the swoop pond. He should have aborted his HP landing.

IIRC from the other thread, the guy flying the pink canopy was a student. They often need help when they are learning to make judgment calls.

Very True. I would only hope that the instructor monitoring this students progress has taken him aside and discussed the situation with him. Hopefully while having him watch the video that showed him coming close to dying. As far as the HP pilot is concerned. I am mystified. The vibe I'm picking up here is all about how the "Pink" canopy guy screwed up. Where is the just criticism for the failure of the other guy to abort his pond swoop.

Where is the just criticism for the failure of the other guy to abort his pond swoop.

He has very definitely been criticised regarding this. He has made some mistakes and did not mind posting the video evidence, he is also the sort of guy who wants to see others learn from his mistakes.

I believe he made a comment on youtube from him saying, "No blood no foul."

That doesn't support the claim that he's learned from his close-calls. I'd like to think that he had a change of heart later, and that those that know him are correct in that reporting.

Why would we lie?

I don't think you would, but he might. The comment of no blood no foul can support a cynical conclusion that he might be saying what others want to hear without really taking it to heart. Hopefully that is not true and he did recognize the error of his ways (and won't repeat them).

Ok everyone before you start throwing shit at me and saying I should fuck off and take up golf.... The "cavalier attitude" as someone ever so aptly coined it has now changed BIG TIME. This video was not a "look at what I got away with" but more a look at what happens when you don't keep your head on a swivel. Attitudes change dramatically when you have mates go in and have close calls like that. I used to be gun ho, now it's changed so much that people take the piss when I check others on safety issues. What you can't see in the second incident is the blue canopy spiral down from above me and we got to the ground at the same time. That one was bad luck. I landed in the same direction we had been landing all day and the conditions were the same. So he landed in the wrong direction. Ask me anything you like, when I get the chance I'll answer. Honestly too. But if you wanna just throw insults at me don't bother. The way I see it a lot of newbies can learn from my idiocy

I believe he made a comment on youtube from him saying, "No blood no foul."

That doesn't support the claim that he's learned from his close-calls. I'd like to think that he had a change of heart later, and that those that know him are correct in that reporting.

Why would we lie?

I don't think you would, but he might. The comment of no blood no foul can support a cynical conclusion that he might be saying what others want to hear without really taking it to heart. Hopefully that is not true and he did recognize the error of his ways (and won't repeat them).

It's not what he is saying that i am using as reference it's what he is DOING. Like i said i know him personally and he has leaned a great deal from those jumps.

yeah as people get to know me regardless of how 'reckless' they may think i am, i always win em over with my charm i never shy away from a bit of conflict or heated conversation. and am MORE than happy to stir the pot a bit for entertainment. that's another reason i put the video up and will gladly own up to it being me.

to the person who asked about my how i did my ankles thats one thing i cant comment on in an open forum such as this as its still under investigation.

the comment about "no blood no foul" was very tongue in cheek, anyone who gets to know me will let ya know thats very much me. if i feel someone is being a little aggressive in a response i often find myself teasing a little more out of them instead of retaliating.

yeah i've been a complete dick at times but i always know when i'm in the wrong and try my best to pull my head in (doesnt always work) but atleast now i only really get in trouble for shit i do on the ground and not in the air.

it isnt so much that the guy on the pink canopy was acting stupidly, more that he freaked out. he has very few jumps, the last thing i told him before we left the aircraft was to stay away from the pond as three of us (out of five) were swooping the pond. he was just scared to land off, which wouldnt really have been bad as we have sooooooooo many outs there. when i asked why he went over the pond he said it was coz he wouldnt make it back to his landing area.

it scared the shit out of us both really really badly. i grounded myself for the rest of the day.

we both got full on target fixation. i was looking at my set up and the pond he was aiming at the student area. we were both unbelievably lucky to walk away from that. "a little reflection time" is a massive understatement

Ok everyone before you start throwing shit at me and saying I should fuck off and take up golf.... The "cavalier attitude" as someone ever so aptly coined it has now changed BIG TIME. This video was not a "look at what I got away with" but more a look at what happens when you don't keep your head on a swivel. Attitudes change dramatically when you have mates go in and have close calls like that. I used to be gun ho, now it's changed so much that people take the piss when I check others on safety issues. What you can't see in the second incident is the blue canopy spiral down from above me and we got to the ground at the same time. That one was bad luck. I landed in the same direction we had been landing all day and the conditions were the same. So he landed in the wrong direction. Ask me anything you like, when I get the chance I'll answer. Honestly too. But if you wanna just throw insults at me don't bother. The way I see it a lot of newbies can learn from my idiocy

he has very few jumps, the last thing i told him before we left the aircraft was to stay away from the pond as three of us (out of five) were swooping the pond. he was just scared to land off

Do you still think this is fair? You said you have changed, do you think it is his fault or yours for not clearing your airspace? Im just curious if because you and 2 buddies are going to be swooping that that means "stay away from the pond?"

Do you think he should have to land off to make way for you to swoop? Seems a litte selfish to me, just saying.

if you knew the dropzone you'd realise that he wouldnt have been landing off really. he just wouldnt have been landing in the area he wanted to. we have a huge amount of area to land in. with a strip for experienced, a huge circle for beginners an even bigger area for the students, the pond, and then a whole mother load of land surrounding that. i'm not real sure as to what your asking if i think it was fair if you mean for me to ask him to stay away from the pond? definitely, it is super easy to avoid. or do you mean is it fair for me to ask him to land off? well he wouldnt really have been landing off. so in that regards i think its vital for a newbie to learn that its ok not to land in the area they are nominated. there are two reasons its my fault i have more experience and should have known better. and i was the high man. BUT ...... yes there is a but. i do think its important for students AND people on large slow canopies to stay away from areas where people are doing high performance landings. four weeks ago i witnessed a younger jumper (jump numbers wise) fly thru the same air that a 5 way team all doing high performance landings had just whizzed thru. his canopy shut down at about 80 foot and spiraled in to the dirt because of all the turbulent air and he spent a few weeks in hospital, and still is having trouble with his right arm. so maybe yeah it is fair of me to ask him not to fly over the pond after me and my 2 buddies have swooped it.

Of course it's important, and it's certainly okay to ask. But I also think we as the more experienced folks have to be aware of the possibility that people of any experience level (but especially newer jumpers) are going to make mistakes and we need to maintain awareness of people who are where they "shouldn't" be.

You may be "right" but do you really want to be dead right? Land safe and have a discussion about the mistake and why it put the jumper (and others) at risk. Bring in a neutral third party if you need to (don't know if you have the equivalent of a USPA S&TA in Oz, but someone who has "authority" for safety would be a good choice).

Don't make your point by continuing your swoop just because you're pissed off that someone didn't do what they were "supposed" to do.

he has very few jumps, the last thing i told him before we left the aircraft was to stay away from the pond as three of us (out of five) were swooping the pond. he was just scared to land off

Do you still think this is fair? You said you have changed, do you think it is his fault or yours for not clearing your airspace? Im just curious if because you and 2 buddies are going to be swooping that that means "stay away from the pond?"

Do you think he should have to land off to make way for you to swoop? Seems a litte selfish to me, just saying.

From where I sit it sounds like that had a plan BEFORE boarding the aircraft which is generaly a GOOD idea

he has very few jumps, the last thing i told him before we left the aircraft was to stay away from the pond as three of us (out of five) were swooping the pond. he was just scared to land off

Do you still think this is fair? You said you have changed, do you think it is his fault or yours for not clearing your airspace? Im just curious if because you and 2 buddies are going to be swooping that that means "stay away from the pond?"

Do you think he should have to land off to make way for you to swoop? Seems a litte selfish to me, just saying.

Yes and No.

If you're going to establish areas of high performance landings, then those not doing them need to stay away from them. That vertical space is a no-go. Fly around it for your own safety. These areas are no-fly zones, just as HP landings in standard landing areas are no fly zones.

Separation of landing areas works both ways, if it's to work at all.

That said, if there's traffic in the HP area (that you know about) then you don't get to go.

From where I sit it sounds like that had a plan BEFORE boarding the aircraft which is generaly a GOOD ideaIm all about making plans and sticking to them, I agree with you 100%, however.

1. Im not sure of the exit order of this incident, but I'd be very interested to know how the "newbie" on a low loaded canopy made it down faster than the highly loaded "experienced" jumper given they had a plan that obviously went to shit? Pull height? I don't know...

2. When the plan does go to shit, abort it. Don't tell me the high guy didn't see the pink canopy. Did the pink canopy make a mistake? Sure we can argue that. That doesn't mean, screw it im still going to bust out my 270-360.

The whole crux of the argument for needing to seperate 270+ turns from main landing areas is that "the high guy" (who has been responding to this thread if you hadn't noticed) probably didn't see the pink canopy.

It's important to note that how the jump run is set up at a particular dropzone should be taken into account when selecting the high performance area (or vice-versa.) If people are constantly using the high performance area as an "out" or flying over it from a short/long spot then it won't achieve its intended purpose. For true emergencies it may help to have a designated "out" located on the side of the high performance area opposite the main landing area, so that people can opt to land there instead of wandering through the no-fly zone.

There's no excuse for doing a 270 into a main landing area where they are banned, but some people who fly "standard" patterns will always find an excuse for why they had to fly over the swoop pond at 400 ft unless you preempt their excuses.

I see senior instructor staff, at DZ's that have specific swoop only on hop n pop low pass rules, repeatedly swoop on full altitude instructional jumps. AFF, video, coach jumps. You have to be cool to be an instructor at some DZ's. Then put the swoop pond smack dab in the middle of the DZ where it becomes a landing issue for a lot of jumpers. You have to show off where people can see you!

no billvon i did not see him i was too target fixated on hittin the pond dumb as fuck i know, but hey i said i'd answer honestly theres no way i woulda done the turn otherwise that woulda just been suicidal and homicidal at once.

no billvon i did not see him i was too target fixated on hittin the pond dumb as fuck i know, but hey i said i'd answer honestly theres no way i woulda done the turn otherwise that woulda just been suicidal and homicidal at once.

I am willing to bet that most if not all of the swoopers who have had close calls like yours or actual canopy collisions would have similar answers. If they had spotted the traffic then they wouldn't have made the turn. It goes to show that it's more difficult to clear your airspace before executing a high performance turn then most people think.

You and the guy in the pink canopy got lucky. The two guys in Perris were not so lucky.

It seems that the only way to really be certain of clear airspace is to do hop n pops and be the only person in the air or have coordinated landing pattern with others also doing hop n pops.

when i first watched the video i was going to make acritical coment along the lines of lower canopy having right of way and probably being very low experience etc etc. having now read all your posts, hats off to you! you,ve explained the situation, and admitted some fault. brave andhonest, i respect you. (still scarey shit though!)

i hate those terms, WTF does critical mean!? we're pretty sure he's gonna die, be a vegetable for the remainder of his life or he'll get through it but may be paralyzed? he'll be fine if he makes the other night? WHAT?

Even for a novice skydiver like me all actions on the posted video link seams plains stupid because they were not needed to be performed in such unsecure conditions (and take away the merit of having such advanced skill) and end up turning into the kind of actions (public posted actions) that drive people who watches to say skydiving is for crazy people with suicidal tendencies and push public interest away.

Apparently for some parcel of people the risky nature and small window of tolerance characteristic of skydiving as a sport is not enough, thus they have to turn it into a russian roulette that balances suicide attemps vs involuntary murder like situations.

..of course we are seeing actions from experienced jumpers here, what puzzles me is that these might be the same kind of skydivers that often condemn or demand explanations like "how many jumps you have? you'll only exit this amount of time after me, etc.." from a novice when enter a plane, i'm not picking into a particular person, but it seams that dropping the responsability on the students do not explain situations and degree of responsability like the ones being discussed in this thread.

I'm fairly young at this amazing sport, but very well set on to respect the learned aspects of security thanks to my instructors. I constantly lookup to senior skydivers to learn from them, but the fact is:

the seniority those guys might have does not substitute intelligence/brains and does not allow for bypassing safety rules defined by the procedures that costed the life of many good and respectful jumpers to be learned along the years.

I bet they know that. I bet and HOPE they learn from the unnecesary close calls on the video.

I hope that by posting the video the author is attempting regain respect for himself and others promoting a more secure mentality if so I support and congratulate your change of attitude before someone gets hurt.

I think that high performance skydiving atletes should behave more like Formula 1 drivers than to inconsequent clandestine/illicit street racing participants.

as a new jumper i see myself opening high so i can avoid people like that and focus on learning how to do a good landing pattern every time. that is until i downsize to a sub-100 canopy then its all out the door ;) jk jk

This video was not a "look at what I got away with" but more a look at what happens when you don't keep your head on a swivel.

You probably would have copped less shit on both youtube and here if you had included a comment to that effect in the description of the video. It is easy, especially for the uneducated, to look at something like this and assume certain things about the motivations of the owner of the video.

This video was not a "look at what I got away with" but more a look at what happens when you don't keep your head on a swivel.

You probably would have copped less shit on both youtube and here if you had included a comment to that effect in the description of the video. It is easy, especially for the uneducated, to look at something like this and assume certain things about the motivations of the owner of the video.

i'm really not fussed about how much shit i cop. they are mostly just keyboard warriors anyway (on you tube) i'm a big boy, pretty sure i can handle it :) at least on here (for the most part) they have something productive to say.

This video was not a "look at what I got away with" but more a look at what happens when you don't keep your head on a swivel.

You probably would have copped less shit on both youtube and here if you had included a comment to that effect in the description of the video. It is easy, especially for the uneducated, to look at something like this and assume certain things about the motivations of the owner of the video.

i'm really not fussed about how much shit i cop. they are mostly just keyboard warriors anyway (on you tube) i'm a big boy, pretty sure i can handle it :) at least on here (for the most part) they have something productive to say.

Not me..fuck you wogboy, I got 7 hours tunnel time booked sell shit and come with me