“Everyone always says they’re bisexual, blabbing on and on about how ‘sexuality is fluid, and I don’t really like labels’–but usually I find these are just gay men who are afraid to come out. I know there are real bisexuals out there–mainly because I’ve heard that there are–and I do think it’s a lovely idea to actually crave sex with people regardless of gender. I’m just wondering how real a phenomenon this is, as opposed to a smoke-and-mirrors coverup designed to keep antsy gays in the closet.” —Village Voice columnist Michael Musto asking pertinent questions [VV]

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135 Comments

mick

I am one of those who believes that sexuality is indeed fluid, I believe in the Kinsey Scale.

April 7, 2009 at 10:04am

Alex

I’ve hooked up with bi guys – just the ease and comfort they have with their bisexuality made me believe them, along with the fact I could tell that women really did have a strong emotional and physical impact on these guys. Or they could have just been sex addicts. Either way, I know there are guys out there that might prefer women, but can enjoy the touch of a man.

Greedy bastards. :)

April 7, 2009 at 10:04am

drresol

I certainly hope I don’t ruffle any feathers by saying this (it’s not my intent)…but I have to say that this has always been my experience.

I have yet to meet a truly bisexual man. I’ve met men who claim bisexuality…but more often than not it’s a guy who everyone is looking at thinking…”yeah…er, you’re gay, man.” And usually the said guy comes out a year or two later as full-blown gay.

Of course, on the other hand, I’ve also known a few straight guys who went through a brief bi-curious phase and might have dabled around with other guys. But these guys never claimed bisexual status…they never bothered to define themselves beyond straight, and when confronted with their gay encounters they just shrugged it off.

Please understand…I’m not trying to make any definitive statements. Just giving my own personal observations. There may very well be truly bisexual persons, I’ve just yet to meet someone who truly met the criteria.

April 7, 2009 at 10:04am

BillyBob Thornton

As one who identified for many years as “Gay”, and just recently come to terms with my bisexuality, I say it does exist.

I ignored/denied/repressed my attraction to women because I am probably 90%+ more interested in men. All my gay friends always were saying that a “bi” guy was just a gay man trying to retain his “masculinity”. And I thought it was probably true.

However there are certain times when a sexy beautiful women crosses my path, I get very aroused. And on a few occasions have acted upon that arousal. The sex is wonderful, hot and very fulfilling –at that moment—. Just as fulfilling as sex with men. I just prefer men most of the time.

April 7, 2009 at 10:04am

bb

What I can’t find is a straight guy willing to come out as such. I have so many blatantly, unreparatively heterosexual friends who want to tell me all about how they turn bi after this or that number of drinks. They invoke the same notion of sexual fluidity, and I wanna be like, “look… I get it: you’re progressive and hip, you’re open, and you support me. You probably even think that being a heterosexual is some form of homophobia and 50s-style patriarchy. You don’t find men specifically unattractive, so you think you might be capable. Now that’s all real cute, but the fact is that you’re straight, and you need to just admit it, the way I’ve admitted I’m gay. Trust me: wishing it away doesn’t work.”

I will admit though that I do know a number of men who identify themselves as completely gay and yet frequently find themselves having strong sexual and/or emotional feelings for women. Go figure. Maybe labels are the problem.

April 7, 2009 at 10:04am

drresol

@ Billybob and BB

Very good responses. Can a gay man love a woman? Can a gay woman love a man? Can a straight man love another man? Or a straight woman another woman?

I think sexual orientation is static (just my personal belief…I could be wrong). But I also think any human being, given the right circumstance, could come to love another human. Innate sexual attraction is a powerful force, but it can be (I think) over-ridden by a mental attraction. I, myself, identify as gay…but back in high school when I was trying to be straight, I can say that I truly loved 2 girls that I dated. Was it the same way that a straight guy could love them…? No. But was the love valid and real..? Yes. I loved them for the person they were, and although I lacked an innate attraction to their gender they became beautiful to me for the person they were.

It’s a complex equation. There is physical attraction; and there is mental attraction. Ultimately, the 2 must coincide. I truly think it’s the only way a relationship can be truly whole. But there are gray areas…a bird can love a fish. (but where will they live?)

April 7, 2009 at 10:04am

Jaroslaw

This topic has been debated right here on Queerty quite a bit within the last couple months, so I’m not going to post all my thoughts and ideas again now but one is really worth repeating. It is by another poster, not myself but I completely concur:

While there almost certainly a few truly bisexuals out there, the problem is then it brings up that awful issue of “it’s just a choice.” So then it follows that folks can “choose” not to be Gay, just be straight. I’m not saying it as well as he did, but you get the idea.

April 7, 2009 at 11:04am

dizzyspins

I think the problem is one of definitions. What does “bisexual” mean? Is a straight guy who let one or two dudes suck him off in college bisexual? Is someone like BillyBobThorton bisexual, even though he says he’s 90 percent gay? Is a guy who can feel an intense emotional connection to women, but doesn’t have strong erotic feelings for them bisexual?

My personal definition of bisexual is someone who has sexual relationships with both sexes throughout their lives–no one-offs, brief experimental phases, or mere ‘curiosity.’ And the orientatin has to be a natural inclination, not based on social or religious pressure to play “straight.” Based on that definition, I havent encountered any truly bisexual men.

April 7, 2009 at 11:04am

Alec

@dizzyspins: I have a similar definition, although I’d also accept it as an orientation, as opposed to conduct.

I’ve met some guys who might be bisexual in orientation. A guy in his mid forties who was married twice and continued dating women even as he dated men. But that’s about it. Everything else is either experimentation or part of the coming out process.

April 7, 2009 at 11:04am

DC Steve

I’m a guy in my late 30s, generally find I flourish and am happiest in and around gay culture, but can’t deny there are things about women that get me tingly and excited.

I just describe myself as “queer” if anybody asks — I don’t feel like I can honestly advertise as gay, I’m definitely not straight, but “bisexual” is a term loaded with so much baggage from so many directions.

April 7, 2009 at 11:04am

drresol

A truly bisexual person…they would be turned on (sexually) by both genders. And that is excluding pressure they may feel from society to respond as such. A truly bisexual person would feel deep, innate attraction to the opposite gender’s junk.

I think a good litmus test would be…if we lived in a weird, alternate reality where gay was the norm and attraction to the opposite sex was considered odd and abominable…would you still feel the attraction to the same sex? Would you still possess that despite strong opposition to it? Is the attraction really that innate and strong in you?

April 7, 2009 at 11:04am

drresol

**typo** that should have read, “would you still feel the attraction to the “opposite” sex…”***

April 7, 2009 at 11:04am

WetWaffleSlag

The narwhals of the gay world.

April 7, 2009 at 12:04pm

triskil

I think it’s important when asking this question to acknowledge our shared human experience, the structure of the society in which we live and our labels of sexuality. If a man is truly bisexual he has little motivation to “come out”. First of all many gays have deep internalized values which prohibit them from coming out to themselves much less others. I believe we should expect as much from the bisexuals. Second even to a self aware and accepting gay or bisexual man there are external pressures and consequences to deal with which can be very traumatic. Given this, when a bisexual man could live quite happily living as a heterosexual why would he do otherwise? It’s a powerful force which beckons us from the closet. Most of us only because we are homosexual and have little or no choice but to come out. Humans need affection.
Too, what is it to be bisexual? How far do you have to go? How badly do you have desire some sort of intimacy with either gender and what does the nature of that intimacy have to be to qualify you as bisexual?

April 7, 2009 at 12:04pm

Mike in MO

Count me as bi. I don’t know how else to explain it other than when I see a hot chick, I get hard. When I see a hot guy, I get hard. I understand there are a lot of insecure gay guys out there that claim bi in some weird attempt to retain their masculine cred. That doesn’t mean everyone that identifies as bi is bullshitting…

April 7, 2009 at 12:04pm

GayIsTheWay

No. Male bisexuality is either very rare or doesn’t exist just like female heterosexuality. A man’s litmus test is his penis; does it become erect or not. One time when I was a teenager I became erect looking at a woman, it was an aberration. My dick misfired. The thousands of erections I’ve had before and after have been because of men. I am 100% gay. These guys that claim bisexual identity either do it to preserve their masculinity because they think being gay means you are effeminate, they exagerrate an abherrational erections, or they elevate non-physical characteristics.

rogue dandelion

I’ll submit that there are probably a number bi guys- but this gender fluid thing is a bridge to far. I don’t think I have ever been attracted to a woman unless she a very butch lesbian around 40ft away with her back turned towards me.

April 7, 2009 at 12:04pm

mp

I have a “friend” (really, it’s not me) who is always looking for bi guys and MWMs on Craigslist and his unscientific opinion is that almost all of them are less in-shape gay guys trying to play up the masculinity factor.

I’ve also had a pretty cynical attitude about bisexuals even though I had sex with a woman this year for the first time since I was 21 (approx 15 years). I still consider myself gay and not bi but I guess I have to acknowledge the possibility that there are hetero guys out there who occasionally want to have sex with men and bisexuals who like both equally.

April 7, 2009 at 12:04pm

Nik

Let people define themselves as they will. Sexuality is not a fence. By denying the existance of bisexuals and forcing them to pick a side we become no better than those fundamentalist douchebags who say WE’RE just deluding ourselves from our supposedly true heterosexual nature. Yes, there are those who will use the label bisexuality to hide they’re true homosexual orientation and there will be others still that will use that bisexuality or claimed bisexuality for atention but that doesn’t mean that people who truly are 50/50 (or at least close to it) bisexuals don’t exist.

April 7, 2009 at 12:04pm

peet

@WetWaffleSlag: LOL. More like the unicorns. Bisexuality is just the little truck stop many guys pull over at on their way to the glittery streets of Gaysville. Unfortunately, some guys don’t leave said truck stop. It’s a shame that their concept of masculinity is so entwined with the notion of nailing a woman that they cannot just come out as gay, and so, like obstinate little children, they stamp their feet and constantly declare their undying attraction to women like a mantra. Naturally, they feel constantly pressured to do so because no one ever truly buys it! And why should they? Men are visual creatures, and brains really are hardwired in one, and only one way. Just because they can pop a boner when an attractive woman walks by doesn’t mean that it didn’t take lotsa concentration and maybe a burst facial blood vessel from the strain of the effort. Sexuality is defined by genuine sexual attraction, not just the gender of whomever one currently happens to be nailing. Who knows, maybe they’re hoping that they’ll fake it ’til they make it?

April 7, 2009 at 12:04pm

An Other Greek

what would Musto know (or even imagine) about bisexuality?

No offense, but all these “100% gay men” -imposing- that bisexuality is a lie, is so offensive…

c’mon men, live and let live, it’s not all about what goes on in YOUR “head”… Just because YOU have zero (really?) desire for a member of the opposite sex under “no circumstances” (really?), at least allow your mind to respect other realities/desires…

sexuality IS fluid as is love, people that cannot acknowledge this, if even for others, are in a sad state of egocentric denial.

In the future we will be pan-sexual.

————————————————————–

April 7, 2009 at 1:04pm

peet

Almost everyone here (myself included) is just ranting without really reading what anyone else has said. Mister GayIsTheWay (number 16) is the exception. He’s actually gone out and found academically reputable sources to back up his claims. I’d love to see someone go out and find academic sources contradicting his, because as it stands, his argument really is the only valid one.

April 7, 2009 at 1:04pm

WillK

Labels are the problem. They are constructed for people who can’t grasp the fact that there are other ways of loving outside of a man and a woman. It’s confining to label a person as anything.. hetero, homo, bi.. yet, we do it so we can categorize people in our minds. It is just human nature. Sexuality is a fluid concept. Given the right situation and factors there may be a number of different outcomes for a persons sexuality over the course of a lifetime.

April 7, 2009 at 1:04pm

Robert, NYC

I know a number of socalled bisexual men, many of whom tell me they are averse to kissing another male. What is that all about? They think that kissing is reserved for romantic relationships with women only. Kind of screwed up if you ask me. I do often wonder if bisexuality is a ruse for covering up a gay orientation for reasons such as stigma, being discovered, a threat to one’s security, assimilating into society without anyone questioning your sexuality, a lot of things. Maybe most are in denial, who knows.

April 7, 2009 at 1:04pm

Robert, NYC

Another thing….in addition to my last response. I would think its extremely difficult and unsettling being married to the opposite gender while having a yearning to be with someone of the same gender for intimacy. To me, that would be a very unhappy situation to be in.

April 7, 2009 at 1:04pm

TANK

I think the only real test for such a thing is to imagine you had to choose between having sex with michael musto or a woman of your choice. If you choose the woman, you’re at least human. I dunno about bisexual.

April 7, 2009 at 1:04pm

daniel

In truth, it was harder to come out as bisexual to my gay friends than it was to admit that I was gay in the first place. I truly believe that there are gay guys who are just afraid of admitting 100% that they are gay, but I also know (because I’m one of them) that there are plenty of men who genuinely find both men and women attractive.

When I tell some straight people about my sexuality, some doubt it’s validity–my parents certainly did. They wondered if I was confused, or scared of women, or abused as a child. None of those are true. We’ve all faced this to a degree. They can’t understand what’s going on in our heads because they aren’t living it.

Why shouldn’t we give bisexual men the same benefit of the doubt?

April 7, 2009 at 1:04pm

sparkle obama

bisexuality is real & gay is fake.
just kidding, but you absolutists force the issue.
quit labeling people & forcing them to conform.
THAT is not what GAY USED TO BE ABOUT.
f*ck y’all with your anorexia, single-issue entitlement, true religion jeans & “nobama” tshirts.
f*ck. y’all.

April 7, 2009 at 1:04pm

Aaron J.

Sparkle Obama got it right. I don’t understand this rabid denial by some of bisexuality in men. Why? Is it threating? I happen to think it’s less common in men than women, but it definitely exists .

April 7, 2009 at 1:04pm

sam

I like to define myself (not in polite company, of course) as a “fan of genitals.”

I don’t think bisexuality encourages the “it’s just a choice” argument. I didn’t “choose” to be bi. Honestly, it’d make my life SO MUCH EASIER if I could stick to just one gender, but I can’t. Ultimately, I hope, I’ll settle down with one person of one gender, but I can’t tell you which one.

April 7, 2009 at 2:04pm

Jaroslaw

Daniel #27 – Should bisexual men get the benefit of the doubt? In a world free of cultural pressures and norms, yes. But as I said much further up here, (quoting someone else) to validate bisexuality (for many) invalidates homosexuality since one can then “just choose” to be straight. I.E. being Gay was optional all along. Also that same guy on the other post said, bisexuality leaves the door open that some day for many parents that “our dear son” may kiss all the Gay stuff goodbye eventually and marry a woman.

Please note I’ve never said bisexuality doesn’t exist, I just don’t think it is nearly as prevalent as some here advocate.

Ultimately it would be very nice as many have said here not to label or judge, but that is almost impossible on any subject. To expect it with sexuality,something so entangled with culture, religion, tradition, our societal definitions of what it means to be a man or woman, well that really is wishful, pie in the sky thinking.

April 7, 2009 at 2:04pm

An Other Greek

No. 29 · Aaron J.

Sparkle Obama got it right. I don’t understand this rabid denial by some of bisexuality in men. Why? Is it threating? I happen to think it’s less common in men than women, but it definitely exists .
—
to me, these arguments are very –OLD SCHOOL–, stonewall generation understandings and identity tactics. Unity, single-focus responses of a very early revolutionary culture/community.

I have nothing but love and respect for these brothers, but when it comes to identity and desire, their model was a flawed opposition to the hetero-oppressive model they challenged. There is so much more room for development on the topic of sexual identity/desire/understanding…

I know this from personal experience, seen it, lived it…

ray of hope: LGBT youth today is way beyond these arguments… thankfully.
—————————————————————

April 7, 2009 at 2:04pm

sparkle obama

@An Other Greek:
>> ray of hope: LGBT youth today is way beyond these arguments… thankfully.<<

i know that’s right.
dinosaurs, get out of the way!

April 7, 2009 at 2:04pm

GranDiva

Well, I have had a three-way with a genuinely bisexual guy. He left his wife at home in Houston and brought his girlfriend to my undeniably gay place. She was just out of a nine-year lesbian relationship at the time and was getting back into guys, and he used to swing with his wife on the whole cuckold scene when he wasn’t off by himself doing guys in bathhouses. His girlfriend is really into watching guys together and got to play along when he and I were getting a bit overheated. For as many orgasms as she had with him face-down in her crotch (while my face was in his ass), I find it difficult to believe that he isn’t into girls every bit as much as he is guys.

So, yes, in a word, bisexuality does exist.

April 7, 2009 at 2:04pm

TANK

Are they way beyond these arguments? LOL! Credit where credit isn’t due. If the question is whether or not bisexual MALES exist (let’s be honest, musto wasn’t thinking about women), then it’s an empirical question with has been vindicated. Of course they exist. Who gives a toss?

THE STICKIN’ POINT that yes, even many queer youth think about, is whether or not you wanna get STUCK holdin’ the bag like so many women out there whose husbands turn out gay or bi…I dunno, lotsa gays have fetishized the gender binary as a product of their internalized homophobia and thus find a man more authentic if he’s got opposite sex attraction or is, gasp…complete straight! So maybe…wanna get caught holding that bag? I wouldn’t…it’s full of shit. So that rules out a relationship for many gay men and (gasp!) heterosexual women (go figure, huh?) of all ages… I guess they’re just bigots, though…they don’t understand what it would be like if the world were perfect.

April 7, 2009 at 2:04pm

Jennifer

Oh, you men. You’re just hilarious. Do you believe women can be bi-sexual? I’ll bet you do.

The Y chromosome, making humanity a dangerous place to live for 1,000s of years…

April 7, 2009 at 2:04pm

Emily

I think it’s sad that in 2009 we’re still debating the existance of bisexuals and other gender-fluid orientations. Reading the responses, I found so many posters projecting their own experiences onto everyone else – “I’m not bi, so how can everyone else be?” and similar sorts of logical traps.

The fact is, some of us ARE bisexual. I am one, for certain, and I know my (male) partner is also truly bisexual. I don’t tell you “I’m bi, so everyone else must be to some degree” so don’t try to tell me that I’m really just lesbian or straight, and just hiding!

For the record, both the relationships and the sex I’ve had with both men and women have been equally fulfilling to me.

April 7, 2009 at 3:04pm

strumpetwindsock

How a person defines himself is nobody else’s business, IMO. There are plenty of people who tell us that gayness doesn’t really exist either – it’s just something we choose.

I know there are prejudices in society that mean some people have an easy time of it and others do not, but that has nothing to do with self-identification. As well, the notion that bisexuals have it easy because they can pass or switch teams is like discrimination against people who “aren’t black enough”.
Plus (not lighting into you Jaroslaw, ’cause I expect you were just stating an example) but any straight person who made claims about how easy it is to pass would get the shit ripped out of them. That issue of bisexuals sitting on the fence is brought up a lot, but it is irrelevant, largely a myth, and ultimately nobody’s business.

The fact is there are straights who are more dedicated and on the front lines of our struggle than some gay people are. I don’t care if a person is gay, bi, straight, or even straight but likes to fuck guys now and then. Not Your Business.

What matters is if he is honest and respectful enough to stand up for his friends and community.

strumpetwindsock

Haven’t worked out the subtle arts that really brought us out of the stone age – cattiness, nagging, passive aggression, and the dreaded silent treatment.

*just kidding, as I am sure you are*

April 7, 2009 at 3:04pm

Jaroslaw

#33 Dinosaurs out of the way Sparkle? Maybe…. but not so fast! The Youth don’t care about labels, but they also have the lowest voter turn out. So it is nice they support Same Sex Marriage but if they don’t go to the polls, the conservatives win.

Ditto for social institutions. Many of them are dying because the older people are passing from the scene and there is no young blood to take over. With less and less resources & funding available from government, these groups are needed more than ever. Just a thought.

April 7, 2009 at 3:04pm

Jaroslaw

#38 Strump – I didn’t take it personally, yes I was citing but one example; but since you mentioned it, how do we know sitting on the fence is a myth?

And while I agree in theory who has sex with who is not anyone’s business, don’t we slide down the slope of absolutely anything goes? I remember reading this magazine that advocated no restraints whatsoever in sexual matters; citing how free it was or is in Scandinavia and how they don’t have any hangups etc. and the “illegitimate” offspring are happily cared for by the grandparents! Ha! Maybe a good example, maybe not – I don’t know the data, but if true I don’t think it is the grandparent’s jobs to be responsible for the offspring of the young and uninhibited! I work in child support as I have said many times and we have 50,000 unwed births in my state alone ANNUALLY. Probably 1/2 of those end up on some form of welfare. So while it is illegal to advocate any kind of self control legally or otherwise, we have the “right” as a society to pay forever.

April 7, 2009 at 4:04pm

Anthony in Nashville

kevin (not that one)

Let’s face it.

Many gay men and women are threatened by bisexuals. They’re deathly afraid that their partner will leave them for someone of the opposite sex and it will drum up all sorts of issues about rejection, feelings of inadequacy, and their own sexuality and comfort with it.

Musto must be foaming at the mouth, since his comments are genuinely ignorant. Tired queen….

April 7, 2009 at 4:04pm

Anthony in Nashville

Whenever I hear about people 25 and younger being “beyond labels,” I wonder if it’s just a new way of saying “I don’t want to be gay.”

Perhaps my references are out of date, but there are many gay social spaces — neighborhoods, bookstores, and bars/clubs — that are closing at a rapid rate as the younger generation has decided they prefer the company of straight people.

Gays have made great progress but I don’t think we’re at that point of acting like there’s no difference between straight and gay.

I do believe that most people can have sex with anyone if given the right situation (or drugs).

April 7, 2009 at 4:04pm

SteamPunk

Of course, bisexuality is real!
I’ve dated both men and women since I came out 7 years ago.

However, I’ve found it a little more difficult to be in serious relationships as a bisexual. Why? Well, lots of gay men think you’re in denial and lots of straight women think you’re a slut whose going to cheat on them.

Neither is entirely true.

April 7, 2009 at 4:04pm

strumpetwindsock

@Jaroslaw
Well, yes. That’s kind of how it works. Plus having fluid sexuality does not mean you are necessarily just a bigger slut than the rest of us.
Really it’s the idea of a socially-imposed definition I find silly. We don’t write tests or have little certificates to say we are gay, bi or straight, and there’s no way we could agree on any set criteria.

And I mis-spoke when I said nobody sits on the fence. Some (gay and bi) certainly do to avoid coming out. What I meant was that I don’t think anyone chooses bisexuality just so s/he can have a wider playing field or avoid commitments by jumping over the fence when it is convenient.

April 7, 2009 at 4:04pm

Christian

So the dividing line is, as I seem to understand, when you fuck women -done that- you’re straight, when you fuck guys, -done that- you’re gay. When you get hot for pussy -yes got hot- you’re straight, when you get hard -yes, got hard- for cute guys, not for a dick though (hey, might that tell anything? I don’t know) well, then again you’re gay. When you fall in love with a sweet girl -done that- you’re straight, when you fall in love -fell, yes- with a nice boy, hey, you’re gay again. So I’m straight and gay. I just must not be found out. Damn, this town is too small for me.

Pragmatist

Of course bisexual men “exist.” What a provincial question to be asking.

April 7, 2009 at 5:04pm

Pragmatist

@sal: I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me, no. I’m not often attracted to feminine men. Or to masculine women. The “flavor,” so to speak, is a bit confusing to my libido.

(By analogy, I like raspberries. And I like chocolate. But I don’t like raspberry-flavored chocolate, or chocolate-coated raspberries.)

There are exceptions, just not often.

April 7, 2009 at 5:04pm

Christian

@Sal
No, they share the place with sexy tomboy women. You might have thought that out yourself.

April 7, 2009 at 5:04pm

Bill in PDX

yes, i believe it does. A lot of ancient cultures celebrated it– feudal Japan, Persia, Sparta, Hellenic Greece, Polynesia and even native American cultures both North and SA. I am 44 but in my androgynous youth, I was hit on by all sorts of guys that I think really liked both M and F. I have had friends for whom bi was a bridge to self acceptance and others for whom it is/was just their way of being. I am tolerant and don’t think my view is the only one. I am not Bi and am proud of who I am. I know men who like sex a lot and find it easier but are still into women and I know guys who have an active open polyamorous life with an open polyamorous wife so yeah, for a lot of folks– more than we think– bi is real….

One time I posted an add to get together and got 100 responses– 48 were married with kids and 20 were going for it for the first time– kept stats coz I was fascinated.

April 7, 2009 at 6:04pm

Giovanni

“Oh, you men. You’re just hilarious. Do you believe women can be bi-sexual? I’ll bet you do.”

You’re right, Jennifer. We have truly funny ideas we men.

(Of course bisexuality exists!)

April 7, 2009 at 6:04pm

sal

sal

Giovanni

I will also say that when I was trying to figure out my sexuality in my early 20’s I got more shit from gays regarding bisexuality than I did straights guys regarding homosexuality (maybe it’s the circle i was traveling in but I’ve always had open minded het friends). Some gay dudes were outright cruel as I recall and I suppose I can understand why but I still feel resentment when I think about that time in my life.

April 7, 2009 at 6:04pm

Jaroslaw

#37 Emily – did you read anything here before you posted? The vast majority of comments DO NOT say bi’s don’t exist.

#54 Bill in PDX – not sure what your last sentence is about – other than (if the married guys were mostly at or near your age) this is exactly why this topic is so contentious – it is more than proven that many men married for social acceptance, but really were Gay. Not all, but certainly before a certain point in time (1980’s?)

And before I get deluged with comments disputing my point, let’s also not forget homosexuality was a mental illness until 1973. I would well imagine that factored into a lot of people’s life decisions……

April 7, 2009 at 6:04pm

Tony

I used to pretend i was bi, but I don’t actually believe that a person can be bisexual. is that wrong?

April 7, 2009 at 6:04pm

Bill in PDX

@Jaroslaw: After talking with these men I believed that a good number of them liked both and that some were hiding. The age ranges were 62 to 22 seriously with the majority between 30 and 45. For me, I believe that there is a range in sexual response….I did not sleep with all of them but I did have conversations and coffee with everyone. I do have someone in my life I think is 100% GAAY but thinks he is str8 now and everyone including his mom has told him to get on with it but he insists he was just a little bit bi and that he is over that phase as his eyes wander over every good looking male in proximity…We were involved for 4 years and are still good friends and he even comments if I have left my pubes go wild for a couple of weeks–he will say you need to do something with that…can’t imagine a str8 guy making that comment to a bud .

April 7, 2009 at 7:04pm

Pragmatist

@Tony: I think a lot of people pretend to be bi, as you did, for various internal and external reasons. That’s OK; whatever helps you through a tough period is fine with me.

But it’s illogical to conclude that other people can’t be bi because you aren’t bi. That would be like a straight guy telling you that you’re just in a “gay phase” because he himself went through a brief phase during college. Obviously, you wouldn’t like that very much — and you wouldn’t think it were very logical either, right?

April 7, 2009 at 8:04pm

Scott

Christian

@ Sal

You got a serious reaction on your not very imaginative question. You figure out now why we bisexuals do not wish ourselves known too much, calling me jerk, you! Imagine this, the whole bisexual thing sits right between the ears, like anything sexual. I switch, in looking at a woman, than at a man, the switch in sexual interest is in the mind. Not between the legs. Try to imagine something that you obviously did not do (yet) and which to me is a normal thing.

April 7, 2009 at 8:04pm

Scrufff

I always thought “I’m bi” was a transitional phase for the more often than not young guy who’s tipping his toes into something outside of heterosexuality.

however, in my early 20’s i fell in love with a very open minded straight guy. we eventually had sex, i sucked him off, he sucked me off. Later he asked me to fuck him but it didn’t happened because it was too uncomfortable for him (i’m rather large.) However, he firmly identifies as straight, he’s married with two kids, BUT he admits to sucking cock now and then and that he absolutely loves it.

He doesn’t have any butt sex, the other guy doesn’t suck him off, my straight friend just needs to suck the occasional cock. I’ve asked him many times why not admit to being bisexual and his response is other than sucking a cock now and then, there’s nothing about gay sexuality that he’s into. maybe its like straight guys who like to get fucked by their girlfriends with a dildo (Dan Savage’s readers have coined the term “pegging” for it.) Maybe to them it just feels good – no sexual label needs apply.

go figure. to each his own.

April 7, 2009 at 9:04pm

Sarah

I certainly can’t speak for bisexual males; however, I can speak for bisexual females (at least myself and the ones I have spoken to). I am attracted to both men and women. Some may say I am bad for to LGBT movement – that I have a “choice.” I don’t. I am equally as likely to fall in love with a male as a female.

However, sexuality is at least somewhat fluid. I find I am more inclined to men at one point, women at another, and both equally at another point. And don’t anyone dare say I’m confused – I’ve had to deal with enough crap like that from my stepfather.

April 7, 2009 at 9:04pm

GayIsTheWay

Scott, you are GAY. As the study I linked to earlier showed gay men are most aroused by gay male pornography followed by heterosexual porn because both have men in it. You obviously watch heterosexual porn because you think heterosexual males are more masculine than gay men, that fucking a woman is masculine. If you get erections from watching gay male and lesbian porn than you are bisexual.

Scruff some heterosexual males are submissive and like being dominated by women hence the dildos etc.

April 7, 2009 at 11:04pm

Mikmars1

Sorry, I feel most of the comments are here are just very uninformed.

I consider myself bi – and for most of my post high school life, I called myself gay. I decided to self-indentify as bi – after I became involved with a woman that I knew would turn out to be a long term (sexual) relationship. I really don’t believe that it was some convoluted way of trying to run back into the concert.

I still kept all my friends, still volunteered in community events, and still lived and hung out (mostly) in the same areas and bars. This wasn’t some decision to fool myself or others – though that didn’t stop me from getting lots of grief and nonsense.

I wouldn’t be so bold as to point fingers at other folks and tell them who I really think they are.

Too often I hear folks boldly commenting on who or what other people really are (people they often know too little about), sadly, on stereotypes that we as a community condemn.

There’s just too many interesting people out there with so many different thoughts, loves, likes, and attractions. Isn’t it great that we are not just made from the same cookie cutter.

April 7, 2009 at 11:04pm

Max the Communist

IMHO, my fellow posters are missing the biggest point about this subject.

Biphobia, whether it comes from queers or straights, is just homophobia that targets bisexuals and anyone else that exhibits fluid sexuality or has an identity that makes fluid sexuality visible.

There’s one core basic reason bis make gays and lesbians nervous–we make them look bad in front of the straight people.

Bisexuals can’t exist because gays and lesbians have painted themselves into a corner with their own conservative essentialistic defenses of same-sex sexuality. Fluid sexuality can’t be acknowledged, it has to be erased or continually discredited because the gay movement only defends people under the premise that they are the unchangeable, helpless, innocent victims of their own sexuality.

Is that liberation? Keep in mind that the straight guy who says, “I tolerate gays because they can’t help it,” is still a homophobic turd.

I have always felt bisexuals should be even more outspoken than they currently are in straight venues, defending fluid sexuality where lesbians and gay men do not. But above all, any gay man or lesbian who is scared of fluid sexuality and cannot bring themselves to accept it, at least in other people, is a liability to anyone who feels passionately about defending it. Any gay or lesbian organization that can’t or won’t defend fluid sexuality only makes themselves vulnerable to the right.

The right–especially the religious right with their ex-gay programs–knows that we exist. It’s way past time for use to develop a stronger offense by defending fluid sexuality–not ignoring it and hoping that it will go away.

April 8, 2009 at 12:04am

Ted C.

Yeah, there are real bi guys out there. I’ve dated one. The real question is why they’re so invisible.

I think the issue is that it’s easy for bi guys to disappear into the straight community over time. Unless you go out of your way, it’s 10 times easier to find a nice straight woman to date than it is to find a nice gay man to date. (And soon you’re married to a nice straight woman, and soon all your friends are straight, and soon the fact that you like cock is irrelevant because you probably won’t be touching another cock ever again.)

The exception is if you’re slutty. And that’s where the stereotype of the slutty bisexual comes from. They’re a minority of bisexuals, but they’re the most visible ones.

And so far, I’ve only been counting the bi guys who embrace their queerness in the first place. For bi guys who aren’t comfortable with being queer, it’s very easy to suppress your man-loving side and just date women. That’s probably 90% of bi guys right there.

those who deny bisexuality should just deny homesexuality at the same time…it’s where we’re headed if we don’t shape up…the real reason people laugh at gay rights….

April 8, 2009 at 12:04am

ctSF

I’ve been out for six years to friends and family and everyone else, so no fear factor, and I’ve had sexual relations with men and women in that time. Both work for me equally. The only problems I ever encountered were women who had reservations that I was with men (never stated, but probably STD related), and gay men who had reservations about a long-term relationship because I might want to “go back to women”.

April 8, 2009 at 12:04am

An Other Greek

No. 60 · Tony

I used to pretend i was bi, but I don’t actually believe that a person can be bisexual. is that wrong?

—

aaaaand, in a few simple words, the true reason for the existence of this thread reveals itself.

wow/ouch/shit
we have a looooong way to go

————————————————————-

April 8, 2009 at 12:04am

TANK

That’s a legitimate concern, actually. Bi men are usually closeted and married to women. Those who are closeted and who have sex engage in riskier sexual behavior because it is a point of shame, they don’t know about safer sex practices or don’t think of themselves as “queer” and capable of contracting an sti. That’s what studies indicate, anyway. But that increases the chance of passing on sti’s to their female primary sexual partners. The concern can be mitigated with full disclosure and negotiation within a viable relationship, but that increases the chance of rejection and thus the incentive is to lie about one’s sexuality and interests. Not to mention that there are often children involved…women have a lot to lose, and in many of these situations (gay bi closeted male partners), do lose a lot.

To be clear I’m not saying that bi men can’t be monogamous, nor am I advocating for monogamy.

The worry of gay men (some, anyway) that bi men will cheat isn’t unfounded. Of course every relationship no matter what the sexual orientation does have the very real and likely potential of a partner cheating and, perhaps, the relationship falling apart. But with bisexual men that chance is greater for the simple fact that there are more options and opportunities for them to cheat. Thus, it’s not the SAFER (SAFER…didn’t say safe) investment. And yeah, gay men need to realize what smart heterosexual women always have…brokering relationships is key to happiness.

Also, gay men are victimized by heterosexism and homophobia throughout their lives in the united states. They grow up assaulted by gender norms in their socialization. I can’t see how a gay man losing his partner to “heterosexuality” wouldn’t just be more of the same…thus the avoidance. But again, I’m just providing reasons why gay men would be unwilling or apprehensive about having a real relationship with a bi guy (not to mention that most of the few bi guys we’re aware of aren’t really relationship material…by that I mean on the market for a male partner…”girlfriend’s away, time to play,” kind of stuff).

It’s true that bi men disappear into heterosexuality (and enjoy heterosexual privilege), and to a far lesser extent, homosexuality when they partner up. It’s just easier because they do face biphobia from both sides, and that isn’t right, and I’d never defend it…and they are perceived as heterosexual. Why wouldn’t they take the path of least resistance? It’s the way of all flesh, after all.

And what does Dan Savage (who, I admit, is often biphobic) say about bisexuals who complain to him about not being able to find understanding partners? Well, date bi people…perfect partners, problem solved.

And this isn’t to say that one can’t have a long term romantic relationship with a person of a different though compatible sexual orientation, just that full disclosure is optimal so that one knows exactly what they’re getting into.

April 8, 2009 at 1:04am

I love rain

I exist.

I enjoy relationships with guys or girls. BFD…

some people prefer one gender(or sex…yeah there’s a difference), I do not, why is that so effing hard to believe?

The majority of my friends from university were bi, I happened to be the only bi guy.

April 8, 2009 at 1:04am

strumpetwindsock

@TANK:But with bisexual men that chance is greater for the simple fact that there are more options and opportunities for them to cheat.

See I don’t buy that argument at all (and I know you’re just listing them; I don’t assume it’s your personal belief).

It plays into the myth that bisexuals are big sluts because they have more choices or can’t make their mind up or will always want to switch. I think it’s bullshit.

Are people in New York more likely than people in Minneapolis to cheat simply because they have more people to choose from?
No. People cheat because they have low self-control and a lack of respect for their partners.

I know the argument is there, but it has nothing to do with behaviour specific to bisexuals; it’s in the minds of others.

April 8, 2009 at 1:04am

sal

@Christian: were u making fun of my question?i asked that question cause i really wanted to know the answer from someone who IS bi,and not just create my own answer thus stayin ignorant…if it seemed like a silly,offensive question im sorry ,totally not my intention…it’s just my personal experience with interacting with bi guys always left me with that question in the back of my mind,why they never seem to be into fem guys ..NEVER.Not that im sayin fem guys are entitled to em but it kinda left me …..hmm personally wondering

April 8, 2009 at 1:04am

TANK

That’s a fair counter. I agree that none of what I’m sketching speaks to a specific bi male; these are generalizations based upon facts, really. Just like the stereotype that jews make more money than non-jews, on average, is true…though doesn’t speak to any individual jew.

I completely agree that monogamy is the responsibility of those who are in an understood monogamous relationship. Cheating is thus a breach of the terms of that relationship, and belies a lack of respect for the other partner.

I’d also say that people who live in urban centers and thus have more interpersonal exchanges than those who do not does raise the chance of cheating…based simply on more opportunities with more interpersonal exchanges. I also think that the majority of bi men settle with women PARTLY because there is a higher chance of finding a female partner over a same sex partner. There’s a lot more women than gay men; and thus a lot more potential partners. Homophobia also plays a big role. This is an average, though… I’m not singling out any one individual.

April 8, 2009 at 1:04am

sal

strumpetwindsock

@TANK:
Actually I have spent time in some rural and isolated communities that would turn that big city myth on its head. Remember, in a lot of those places there’s not a lot else to dom and a lot of transient workers.
Of course most (but not all) of the action is straight. But per capita a lot of small communities would outdo N.Y. in the Sodom and Gomorrah department.

April 8, 2009 at 1:04am

strumpetwindsock

not a lot “to do” , I mean.

April 8, 2009 at 1:04am

TANK

Really? Well, it’s definitely an empirical question, and thus there is an answer to it. I don’t…think anecdotal evidence works (also, bear in mind, that in smaller communities, gossip exaggerrates the number of incidents, and the types of incidents…). So until a fact of the matter fills in the gaps here, I’m willing to call it a draw…I don’t think my conjecture is unreasonable, though…nor yours.

April 8, 2009 at 1:04am

HYHYBT

@GayIsTheWay: One moment… “Male bisexuality is either very rare or doesn’t exist just like female heterosexuality.” Did I read that wrong, or are you claiming there are no straight women?

April 8, 2009 at 2:04am

Christian

@Sal

No, I am not making fun at you. It just is so obvious to me that bisexualism exists and that it is only an earmark for a complex thing, like heterosexualism is and the rest. It is an abstract, the real thing will be different with any living person. As you say, those bisexuals you met were into the butch guy type, they have an easier time I guess. Wouldn’t you agree that the question about the realness of bisexuals is a bit of a black swan discussion?

April 8, 2009 at 3:04am

Christian

@Sal
Please forgive me if I offended you by my remarks. I really didn’t mean to.

April 8, 2009 at 3:04am

Pragmatist

@strumpetwindsock: Yeah, that’s a silly notion. If a gay guy doesn’t cheat, I’m pretty sure it’s not for lack of options. Anyway, people make decisions at the margin. If you’ve already got 65,999 potential sex partners living in your metropolitan area, the 66,000th isn’t going to make you any likelier to cheat. Nor is the 130,000th.

In any case, I’ve found that I do prefer to date other bi people. I’ve found that other bisexuals tend to be a little more independent and freethinking, and a little less concerned with fitting a particular mold. Admittedly, unpredictable too! But I like that a lot.

April 8, 2009 at 4:04am

Jaroslaw

I can’t believe anyone even responded to Tony #60 in a serious way. If he read even 1/4 of the posts here, he has got to be joking. Oh gee, I used to be a Republican ’cause I hated higher taxes but then I realized they were controlled by the religious right. Was I naive?

April 8, 2009 at 7:04am

Robert, NYC

So what does the bisexual male or female do when they marry a straight but never reveal their bisexuality to them? Isn’t that dishonest, living a lie? How do they handle the same-sex attraction component while married, do they remain loyal and forgo their bisexual orientation? I would find that kind of situation very oppressive and difficult to maintain. Lets be realistic, how many straight partners would be ok with their significant other being bi? I wonder how many bi married people are cheating on their partners to satisfy their same-sex inclination? Kind of makes a mockery of marriage doesn’t it? I’ve actually known a few bisexual married men who couldn’t accept that having extra-marital sex with another of their gender didn’t constitute cheating because they weren’t having sex with another woman.

April 8, 2009 at 10:04am

Jaroslaw

#88 Robert in NYC – well as to the cheating issue in your last couple sentences – people have a remarkable ability to rationalize what ever they WANT to do. So if you made a commitment to be monogamous, well that is what it – sex with your spouse only. It’s kind of like the high school nonsense I hear – the girls claim a blow job isn’t sex. Fine – is it still not sex if the (teen) girl gives a 60 year old man a bj? I bet it is then!

As to the “living a lie stuff” – wouldn’t that depend on the person? Everything in life involves choices. For most people marriage involves some degree of settling down, for example. I know a guy who is very freewheeling in his way of earning a living, but the wife wanted dependable income and a higher lifestyle. They are no longer married. What I’m trying to say is whatever you choose, you can’t have it all. If you want to be a rock star, you have to travel the world; so conversely you can’t be a homebody.

April 8, 2009 at 11:04am

Robert, NYC

Jaroslaw I take your point, however, if a bi person marries without revealing his or her same sex attraction, then yes, I do think they are living a lie because they knowingly and intentionally withhold the information because 1) they don’t want to risk losing that person they claim to love above all others, 2) don’t want to subject themselves to 50% of everything if the other spouse finds out and takes them to the cleaners, 3) are terrified of being found out and rejected not only by their spouse but by their families, then there is of course the stigma associated with a gay orientation. I would indeed call that living a lie.

Then there are some bisexuals who in the case of the males, don’t think that romance should be between same sex couples, especially it its a gay male couple and even abhor the fact that two males can and often want to kiss during intimacy. Love in the form of kissing to those kinds of bisexual men is a feminine phenomenon and I don’t quite get that either. Its as if they’re suggesting that same sex couples are incapable of falling in love because of the incompatibility of having identical genitalia and the need to procreate between men and women. I think many bisexuals are very conflicted about sexual orientation and in some cases in denial about the same-sex part of it and what that implies for most gay couples, particularly male couples.

April 8, 2009 at 11:04am

Jaroslaw

#90 – ok Robert, NYC – I read carefully everything you said and it still depends on the person, I think. Let’s say you and I hook up and marry. Do I have to tell you everything? Maybe I want to go to Niagra Falls, France and the Virgin Islands. You don’t EVER want to go to Niagra Falls. But you do want to go to the other two places. Maybe that is enough for me.

Now, that may not be the best analogy – and things can change over time, for travel and for sexual attraction. What someone promised at age 20 may be hard to keep at age 45.

In the best possible world, yes, people should probably reveal they are attracted to the same and opposite genders – but then that raises another question – don’t we all put our best foot forward and not reveal everything? I imagine most of us do, or few relationships would occur.

April 8, 2009 at 12:04pm

Max the Communist

I see a lot of internalized homophobia given as an indicator of bisexual non-existence.

But do gay men have internalized homophobia when they are just beginning to come out? Sure. Why would that be different for bi guys? Honestly, it’s painful to read about bi guys refusing to kiss men or sneaking off on their girlfriends/wives but those are more indicators of unresolved fears and issues, not that bisexuality does not exist in men.

Bisexuals need to overcome internalized homophobia as they come out–and then they have to deal with that whole underlying layer of biphobia that the gay community won’t examine because “bisexuals don’t exist”. Believe me, it’s harder work to do, to plow through all the layers with a fluid and sometimes unpredictable sexuality, especially if you have to go through it without any kind of community support.

Bi men messed up? Wouldn’t you be, if you had not just one, but two different communities against you?

April 8, 2009 at 1:04pm

GayIsTheWay

@HYHYBT: Yes, you read right. Heterosexual women are either very rare or don’t exist. Every study of female sexual arousal has shown that women who identify as heterosexual in fact have bisexual arousal patterns. Male and female sexualities are different. Men are either gay or straight. Women are either bisexual or lesbian.

April 8, 2009 at 2:04pm

Pragmatist

@Robert, NYC: I suppose it all boils down to one’s individual philosophy regarding marriage. For me, personally, I couldn’t imagine marrying someone and then keeping *any* secrets from him or her. Marriage is a gigantic commitment; if you don’t feel enough trust to reveal all of yourself, perhaps it’s not for you.

But that’s just my take. I wouldn’t judge a man for hiding his bisexuality from his husband or wife, provided he never cheats. The fact is that most marriages are NOT my platonic ideal of open communication. As long as you’re faithful, there are a lot bigger secrets you could be keeping than that your sexuality is broader than previously thought.

I’m not exactly sure where this impression comes from that all bi men are running around cheating on their unwitting girlfriends and wives. Craigslist? Most of the bi people I know are in open relationships with a very high level of communication and mutual respect. Nothing to worry about there.

April 8, 2009 at 4:04pm

sal

@Christian: cool :) i’m no authority to say “bi’s don’t exist”,obviously u exist and all the bi guys here exist so who am i to say anything,i just gave my experience ..I’m still really young ,still have allot to see and learn lol

April 8, 2009 at 8:04pm

Boo

HYHYBT- the “research” GAYISTHEWAY is referring to comes from a professor at Northwestern with a history of ethical problems and ignoring inconvenient data. Even if you take his stidues at face value, all they say is that people don’t necessarily look at porn all the same way.

April 8, 2009 at 8:04pm

Dan

My sense is that lesbians are more common than gay men. As nearly as I can tell, I’ve known a few gay men who were incorrectly claiming to be bisexual, and I’ve known several men who really were bisexual. My best friend for several years was bi. I think I’ve even reached a point where I have some limited bi-dar. I’m attracted to bi men, so my motivation to identify them, as well as my academic interest in the topic, is high.

It seems to me that male bisexuality is most common among men who consider or call themselves straight. So, it’s likely that looking for bisexuals in the gay male community will result in a misleadingly low count. Perhaps bisexual women are more likely to consort with gay people.

I chatted with one bi guy who essentially believed that gay men and lesbians did not exist. He kept insisting that I “declined” or “refused” to get into women sexually, when in fact I don’t have that option.

April 8, 2009 at 9:04pm

Dan

Sorry, that first sentence was supposed to suggest that bisexual women may be more common than bisexual men.

April 8, 2009 at 9:04pm

Robert, NYC

Jaroslaw, I do fully understand that relationships, even marital relationships do change but the thing is….if a bisexual is going to marry someone of the opposite sex or same sex for that matter and later in the relationship discovers that monogamy for him or her as the case may be is no longer possible, then there is really no reason to stay married. Lets face it, marriage is about loving someone above all others and even if that changes later on because monogamy just doesn’t work for that individual, then why stay married? Obviously those who cheat aren’t cut out for a long lasting relationhip, married or otherwise. Its not for everyone, but its a very serious commitment that has serious consequences should anything go awry to cause the relationship to irretrievably breakdown either on grounds of philandery or adultery. Its not something anyone should take lightly. For me personally, if I were bisexual, I couldn’t marry someone of the opposite sex and live in fear that if I’m not truthful about my sexual identity, that I’d have to spend the rest of my married life always wondering that maybe one day, I may just be found out. I can’t imagine the trauma, the pain and the sense of betrayal experienced by the other. Also, I can’t fathom the mindset of someone who cheats and has sex outside his marriage or committed relationship and then comes home and has sex with his or her partner feeling next to no remorse or guilt, let alone the chances of an STD getting in the mix since there is no such thing as “safe sex”, safer perhaps but never safe. I would also hazard a guess and say that the majority of bisexual married people are not monogamous and that statistics are comparable to straight married people who cheat.

April 9, 2009 at 9:04am

Robert, NYC

Pragmatist, I take most of your points and concur but as for Craigslist….no, my experiences were from personal relationships (I’m gay by the way), had several relationships with bisexual males, five in fact. One was married and didn’t tell me until many weeks later, so of course, I had to end it, wasn’t for me. The remaining four had no interest in anything longterm or permanent. Two of those four weren’t into kissing so those were abruptly ended. I’m now in a committed, monogamous relationship with a wonderful guy for more almost 16 years and consider myself very fortunate.

April 9, 2009 at 9:04am

Anthony in Nashville

I have been reconsidering my own “bi phobic” thoughts and it’s been surprising to read people’s experiences with catching flak from gays and straights.

I guess I like to keep things in easily definable categories, and someone who could literally “go either way” is a challenge to my thinking.

While googling, I found several references to stories about gay men and lesbians having sex with each other. I need to read some history to see just how long this has been going on, how widespread that is, and how that factors into thoughts about bisexuality.

April 9, 2009 at 9:04am

Kid A

I find it ironic that gays will be upset at bigoted straights for saying that being gay is not a legitimate orientation, the gays will turn around and say the same about bisexuals. The counter always is “So when did you decide to be straight?” How does a straight person have more experience and authority than a gay person to tell them that gay doesn’t exist and that it’s a choice? They don’t, and nor does a gay person have the experience or authority to tell a bisexual person how they are supposed to operate.

I’ve dated men and women, and have been in a monogamous “straight” relationship for nearly six years. My partner is 100% fine with it; I happened to have fallen in love with a woman. If her personality, spirit, and wonderful mind were incarnate in a man’s body, I’d love him and fuck him just the same. The grass is greenest on both sides.

Also, my personal pet peeve is when gay men say “I knew someone who said they were bi but then came out as gay, so I don’t think it’s real.” I personally have seen (for example) Ted Haggard and Larry Craig say they were straight but end up … something else. That doesn’t make me question heterosexuality. I’ve heard “gay” men whisper to me “I sometimes fuck girls but don’t tell anyone because that would make things too complicated.” Gays say that bi people are closeted gays, but have they ever thought about how many closeted bisexuals are posing as “gay”?

@Jaroslaw: I see what you’re saying, but don’t think you’ve thought this through. A bisexual can choose their behavior, but not the fundamental orientation, a fact that actually backs up the principle you’re concerned about. Bisexuality is not changing orientation, it IS orientation in itself. I can see how a bisexual would give Joe the Plumber the idea that people can choose, but fundamentally I certainly did not choose to be bi. God knows that in middle school I could have been straight, I’d have been all over it. Hell, I’d be happy to be gay, just to have a “home” and that brings me to my final point.

So many bisexuals I’ve met have said “well I’m mostly into guys so I don’t tell anyone” or “I prefer to call myself queer.” I do this too; my interior monologue considers myself queer rather than bi. Why? Plenty of baggage that comes with the term, for example LOTS of fucking articles LIKE THIS questioning whether what I’ve experienced my whole life is “real.” If there was an article questioning the legitimacy of gayness, it would seem so 1950’s and GLAAD would be all over that. But here it is, not even reposted by Queerty with a shocked, indignant headline, but just a restatement of the thesis as a “pertinent question.” I respond patiently every time, trying to make my case, but I always wonder “When will this stop being okay?” I know that in my current relationship, I can marry and adopt without issue. But it’s always in the back of my mind that if my partner were male I may not have that right. Bisexuals are not a barrier between gays and straights, we are a bridge and need to be recontexualized as such. I have fought, hard, for gay and same-sex rights, even though I may never need them. I could pass as straight but I stick my neck out for honesty, for fulfillment, for love, for YOU. When will gays back me up?

There needs to be more bisexual visibility. More groups, more conferences, more leadership, more people OUT as BI. For fuck’s sake, 3 different people have thought that my bisexuality meant I had a dick and a vulva.

We are legitimate. We are real. I had a shit adolescence because everyone around me was too stuck in the binary to be honest with themselves. Our queer youth need role models, our LGBT movement needs to grow up, and bi people need to come out. Socially, psychologically, closet-wise, bisexuals are 25 years behind gays. Fellow readers, editors; keep this in mind as you encounter (and write about) bisexuality in our diverse, beautiful, and sexy world.

April 9, 2009 at 10:04am

scott

Jaroslaw

Kid A – which particular thought are you referring to of mine that I haven’t thought through? I’ve never said bisexuals don’t exist. Nor did I say they choose their orientation anymore than Gays choose or Straights.

April 9, 2009 at 11:04am

Jasmine

Bravo, Max the Communist.

I believe Mark Simpson said it best:

“Fear and loathing of male bisexuality is something tends to bring heterosexuals and homosexuals together. Instead of pondering the possibility that public attitudes towards male bisexuality are a truer, less censored indication of what many people actually feel about male homosexuality in general and its enforced incompatibility with masculinity, gay men too often rush to condemn bisexual men and reassure heterosexuals: don’t worry, you’re not being homophobic when mouthing off about bisexual men coz we hate them too!”

BG

Good Lord, “Gay is the Way”!! How long can one human being keep his head up his ass without coming up for air??

Those so-called “reputable” academic sources you quote have been widely debunked for years! EVERY GLBT organization in the country condemned and pointed out their all-too-numerous flaws ages ago. I can’t believe ANYONE still takes them seriously! Where have you been these last four years??!!

Mike

While I appreciate that some people may “lean both ways” as we say here in Olde England, I am, I have to say, a complete Kinsey 6, totally 100% absolutely (approved by the board) gay.

The one self proclaimed bi guy that I have ever been up close and personal with admitted recently that while he had been “bi” he had never actually been with a person of the opposite gender.

So for all those “I’m bi!” people, I’d say to you “ok .. fine nice to know”. Have ball .. go for it.

But please don’t hide behind a label just because you’re afraid of being what you really want to be.

July 26, 2009 at 10:07am

Fitz

I call myself Gay, because I am attracted to men, and I am married to a man. I have had sex with women a handful of times, and it was nice enough. and I do notice attractive women, but it just isn’t my thing.. I would never “work” for straight sex the way I would for gay sex. (you know, the whole courtship/flirt thing)

McShane

No. 105 · Jasmine

Your quote of Mark Simpson is absolutely accurate. He’s one of the only realy smart gays around.. I spent many years being very gay and out and then got caught up in a relationship with a woman, which I was in for 8 years. I could have gone on at that point and been either one.
I’m not to happy with the heterosexual lifestyle, even though I Identified as being Bi ; until now I see that gays are trying to copy them. But I know who I am and have decided that I would rather be an open and free gay.
I don’t need to buy into gay hypocrisy or any particular version of being gay that is being pushed. I am who I am -that’s all there is to it.

September 29, 2009 at 10:09pm

McShane

No. 49 · sal The ultimate turn on’s for me are very feminine women and younger, more fragile men. Most men are more feminine. so I can go for anything but muscular hairy ones.

September 29, 2009 at 10:09pm

Jd

I am astonished at what some gay men really think about bi men.

1 They are not really attracted to women

2 Have to force erections about them

3 Don’t like sex with them

4 Don’t love women

It is almost laughable if it didn’t reflect the the views of some in the Gay community. It’s very naive indeed.

I think tom ford was right about sleeping with the same and opposite sex at least once in your life time. Some on this site might want try that and they may get a different or realistic perspective on human sexuality

July 5, 2010 at 7:07am

Jaroslaw

JD first question – how did you get to this post? The standard home page, at least on my browser, doesn’t have a link to previous articles and when I click “Classic Queerty is still available” the same page comes up. (I don’t get the old format) THANKS

Secondly – you say you are astonished at what some Gay men think about Bi’s. Not sure what your point is – If there are 100,000 different ideas about any subject, “some” people will share any given one.

If I say, for example, some men married to avoid the Gay label because prior to 1973 being Gay was a mental illness, well some did. That didn’t mean they were straight or even Bi, but doing what they thought they had to do. Some might have been Bi, but reading a lot of Gay history, watching historical specials listening to actual men, meeting much older guys at the Gay community center, I can say for sure SOME of them (married to women) guys were definitly not Bi. But I’m not speaking of all, only SOME.

July 5, 2010 at 8:07am

JD

Can’t remember how I found the site.

I agree that gay folks have have got married tried to become straight or assumed a bi identities in order to fit into societies norms.

In relation to your point about your research about bisexuals. I think asking gay people about bi’s won’t get you far. Very few Bi men are in the gay community. They male well be in Sauna’s or cruising spots (together with gays posing as bisexuals) or in a deeply repressed place mentally and not out to themselves but for sure you won’t find many in gay community groups.

My view is that bi men are 20 years behind bi women. They are the last group to come out. They could well be the biggest group to come out.

Remember societies were built on male bisexuality Rome, greece,shoguns in Japan.

July 5, 2010 at 5:07pm

Jaroslaw

Well JD I think you have a point maybe, that you won’t get far asking Gay people about Bi’s. After all, Queerty does present itself as “Gay.”

Just for fun though, I might say that anyone over 30 or so started out as “Bi” in a way. We were all taught that straight was normal and had to discover we were Gay.

I know you said you can’t remember how you got to this site – so that means this is the only post you’ve contributed to? Because this topic is not accessible from the home page, (when one types in “www.queerty.com”)

The old format had “previous” at the bottom of the page so you could go back years even if you wanted to scroll back that far. If you can remember anything at all, I’m thanking you now.

July 5, 2010 at 8:07pm

Jaroslaw

JD – I just re-read the last sentence of your third paragraph. You say “you won’t find many Bi’s at Gay community groups.” First, they are mostly called LGBT community centers; Second – while the main reason I wrote follows this sentence, I wonder how you would know that statistic – America is a huge place with many many such centers!

Anyway, when I wrote about older married men (married say during World War II through the early 80’s (and some even still) who were definitely not Bi; well that was my only point – I knew for sure they weren’t since they said so themselves and yet being married to women, with children and grandchildren it would be easy for someone to presume they were Bi.

I’ve already said this, but just in case I’m not saying Bi people don’t exist.

July 5, 2010 at 8:07pm

Matthew

I am a 39 bi man. I have had dated and had LTRs with mainly women and now 4 relationships with men. All were monogomous until recently. I am now dating a bi woman and a gay man and we are all cool with the arrangement. The sex is very different with my female partner it is gental slow and last a long time almost like swimming in a pool of sensual water. With my man, he is feme, I am top, I can be aggressive in a way my woman doesn’t want. I am real. The reason I think gay men don’t think this is they only know bi men in the gay community who mainly go with men, and getting sex with men is pretty easy. But there is a whole other reality with bi men in the straight world. I am out and in an art community so there is not as much social pressure to conform. But when I step out of this community I get harassment from gays and straights. Most bi men who want a relationship with a woman do not come out, because believe me most women will not date them, and most gay men may have sex but will be upset their partner is bi. With bi women it is a whole other story. I have known both bi men who hang in the gay community, and bi men in the straight world. I also met Susie Bright and her bi male lover and he is definately bi (and really hot surfer dude.) we are out there in the world. My hope is that someday the LGBT community accepts that we exist and acknowledges the degree of discrimination that we endur.

July 13, 2011 at 3:07pm

Matthew

I will add that I was out since highschool and have found more acceptance in the straight world than amoung gays and lesbians. But of course when a straight guy finds out about me being bi they usually tell me of their sexual attractions to other men. Even my straight best friend said, “I just never wanted to go there it would make my life too complicated.” Straight women often also don’t want any gay-ness in their men so they become the gate keepers of “straight” male sexuality. O.K. So when I was 29 I got a job as plumber assistant for extra cash. When he found out I was bi his wife got in contact with me so that I would be both their partners. Which worked – for a while – but got emotionally complicated so I cut it off. But let’s stop the debate of wheather bi men exist and accept that we do. The REAL question for me is how can bi men live healthier open lives in our current culture where we get biggotry from all sides. How can bi men be out without harassment and even job discrimination? How can we be out and thrive? I work independently and in the art world. No one really cares that I currently have both a male and female lover. I just hope all the biggots get over it within my lifetime!

July 13, 2011 at 5:07pm

Abirdwillingtobeitself

jason

Most men are bisexual but are too self-stigmatized to admit it. A lot of the stigma is imposed by women. Women can be extremely hostile to a sexually versatile man. There are many reasons for this. Women cannot stomach the notion of a man being a seller in the way they, themselves, are. A man who sells himself to other men is competition. Male-male paradigms can be sexually promiscuous. Women can never match the promiscuity and power of the male sexual drive.

It’s a combination of envy and fear of competition. Be aware that women are the enemy here.

July 13, 2011 at 6:07pm

Matthew

Yes it is frankly ironic. Although I come off as straight but am really bi the so-called “straight” men are in one word “pussy wipped”. I treat the women I with extremely well, but also don’t take their shit either. While a lot of guys will actually act macho or whatever sterotypical straight bullshit to make sure that any “gayness” is revealed. It is the origin of a lot of homophobia. But at this point I have had so many straight guys since highschool tell me how they truly have sexual attractions to men that I find this whole debate a farce. I am talking not only of my football team in highschool, but men’s groups, carpenters, contractors you name it. But also I have had very homophobic straight guys admit that they had sex with men. I wish the whole charade would just really be exposed for what it is. And not this stupid red herring that bisexual men don’t exist.

July 14, 2011 at 2:07am

Non-conformist

Biphobic bullshit! What is necessary to overcome the homophobia is to eliminate its cause – the taboo for homo-eroticism, male bisexuality, a tendency which has most of the guys. It is necessary to make a sex and relationships between men a routine, as it was everywhere before abrahamic religions. Guys have been bisexual. And now women’s bisexuality is imposed and male bisexuality is suppressed. And gay people are actively involved in this dangerous process, through which homophobia exists!

July 14, 2011 at 2:07am

Matthew

It is also ironic that most of the out bi men could easily pass as straight. But being out we are then called cowards and liars. When I see myself as having the courage to tell truth and the integrity to live the truth. The discrimination I have ignored for 20 years until this last year I just broke down, cried and got pissed off, went back to therapy and am now quickly becoming a bisexual activist. Of course this is a but depressing when in a large city only a handful of bi men and women will show up for activism work. We are now reaching out to colleges to help prevent harassment and discrimination of bi folk. My real hope is that bi men and women whether in a gay or straight relationship will actually come out and help us. Most still identify as bi but will not say so publicly. A new friend I made is telling me how this happens in the gay community where gay men are actually hiring female prostitutes because they want that experience! My hope is this fascist orientation crap will end someday so people who are actually bi can live lives out of the gay or straight closet.

July 14, 2011 at 3:07am

Matthew

What both gays and straights want the same “Seperate but equal” segregation that was imposed on blacks in the south. An out bi man places himself outside of ghettoized homo-eroticism. So when straight men know I am bi they go, why are you here at our straight party, at our straight gathering, having sex with our straight women. Didn’t we section off an area of town for you, give you a parade. Why are you poluting our straightness. You get the picture. It takes a while but some of these guys eventually loosen up. Those that do suddenly then feel permission to show public displays of affection to other men.

July 14, 2011 at 9:07am

Mat

@Non-conformist: @drresol:
I understand your personal experience. Please know I as a bi man rarely hang in the gay community unless dating a gay man. It is often toxic for me. But also know that those “straight” men are actually closeted bisexuals. So should we encourage men to “come out”, well if they did would Gay men believe them? Bi the way most of my relationships have been with women but when I meet a guy I really like I pursued it all the way. I can only say I am bisexual in my life long pursuit of finding love.

January 5, 2012 at 10:01pm

Elta Maxwell

Being a totally straight girl with absolutely no interest in other coochies, all I know is that I’m in a triangle relationship with two TRULY bisexual guys, I dare to say we’re all very happy together, not only being lovers and partners – but best friends for over 17 years now! So I have no doubt, bisexual men do exist and I wouldn’t want to date or live with any other “type of guy” and yes, I do love the “gay action” as much as I love anything else about the two of them, they’re gorgeous, loving, caring and a pleasure to be with regarding any aspect of (everyday) life.
:-)

January 14, 2012 at 11:01am

Alex

I consider myself a bisexual male. I really get angry that people claim that every guy who claims to be bisexual is really just a closet homosexual. This is total bullshit. I’ve always been attracted to both girls and guys ever since I can remember. Back in grade school I had crushes on lots of girls, but also a few guys as well. I’ve gotten boners from just making out with girls. I can get off on lesbian porn as well. I don’t find vaginas gross either. However, with guys I have very high standards. Basically, I am only attracted to the guys that kind of look like me. Girls have said I look adorable and thats the kind of guys I am into. The really cute, skinny but fit, white guys with little to no body hair with kind of girlish features. If a guy does not fit that description I am not attracted to them at all, and I would find the thought of having sex with them to be repulsive. I really go both ways.

January 30, 2012 at 11:01pm

redruMnCoke

peet, at post No. 22 you honored GayIsTheWay as the only person presenting accredited source materials for debate. Do you also subscribe to his statement claiming female heterosexuality as a thing of fiction as well? I don’t think it would take more than a cross-section of a handful of females to disprove the “facts”.

May 31, 2012 at 5:05am

redruMnCoke

Apologies for No. 133 if reposted.

May 31, 2012 at 6:05am

Moregano

@Alex: I nearly completely agree with Alex [Different person #1 using similar name], exept I go head over heals for the manly guys that are still sort of cute but that look more handsome in a tough way; a young Russell Crowe. Furthermore, I’ve been hearing bi guys are hornier, and I’ve found legitament bi people to be some of the horniest.