The thread issue with not knowing if your gun is the one that will take a Micron head or not will be catastrophic. Imagine reading it here, spending all that money and then it does not work. I know I felt bad when I suggested a few years back to put the Badger parts on a Chinese Badger knock-off and it did not fit the version he had. Now imagine that person spending Micron head money.

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You're right. But there's a photo here of an AB that can fit micron's nozzle and also explanations are given, so I'd say there's not much risk there.
I've also bought spares which I expected would fit one of my AB, but they wouldn't. I understand what you're saying. But it seems like this thread is another case. Man tried to fit different parts and they work, he has shown his experiments with photos and good explanations of what was done.

my point is a beginner who doesnt know a thing about airbrushes will only get frustrated if he ends up with a bad airbrush even if it is just a bad needle.
a beginner doesnt know what to look for if something isnt working on a airbrush or if the airbrush preforms bad.
I know : he should ask this forum but how many of you started without the help that can be found on a forum?
just before my stroke I had 2 students both owning and working with an H&S in my class and both had trouble controlling the airbrush due to a bad preforming airbrush . one had a bad/broken nozzle he didnt know about and the other had a clogged up nozzle . once both airbrushes where fixed the airbrushes did work as they should but both students still had trouble with the control so I tested both airbrushes to see what the problem was and it turned out the trigger reaction was real poor on both airbrushes and I could not find the sweet spot no matter what.
a few years later after I wanted to know if I was able to teach again and I found a guy who was willing to play along and be my test student he also had a H&S airbrush and yes he had the same problem as my former students : poor trigger response so I let him use my HP B+ I bought as a student airbrush and he had instant control over that airbrush .
the H&S is not a cheap knock off airbrush but it was real frustrating for my beginner students to work with so imagine would have happened they had bought a Master or what ever brand name they come by in the Netherlands and ended up with a bad one

my point is a beginner who doesnt know a thing about airbrushes will only get frustrated if he ends up with a bad airbrush even if it is just a bad needle.
a beginner doesnt know what to look for if something isnt working on a airbrush or if the airbrush preforms bad.
I know : he should ask this forum but how many of you started without the help that can be found on a forum?
just before my stroke I had 2 students both owning and working with an H&S in my class and both had trouble controlling the airbrush due to a bad preforming airbrush . one had a bad/broken nozzle he didnt know about and the other had a clogged up nozzle . once both airbrushes where fixed the airbrushes did work as they should but both students still had trouble with the control so I tested both airbrushes to see what the problem was and it turned out the trigger reaction was real poor on both airbrushes and I could not find the sweet spot no matter what.
a few years later after I wanted to know if I was able to teach again and I found a guy who was willing to play along and be my test student he also had a H&S airbrush and yes he had the same problem as my former students : poor trigger response so I let him use my HP B+ I bought as a student airbrush and he had instant control over that airbrush .
the H&S is not a cheap knock off airbrush but it was real frustrating for my beginner students to work with so imagine would have happened they had bought a Master or what ever brand name they come by in the Netherlands and ended up with a bad one

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I started out with four black bulls and to be honest with the exception of also having a Neo, these were all responsible for any success I had, I owned an H&S evo silverline after those and got nothing out of it at all for the reason you mention among others, since then I have had all kinds of problems and issues and have recently given up altogether in favour of drawing which gives e far less frustration, I actually wonder if I shouldn't have just stuck with the Neo and replaced it instead of stepping up, having said all that, I don't really think the subject matter of this this thread is or was intended to be aimed at beginners, from what I understand it is aimed more at folks who can only dream of a Micron or similar priced brush, how cool would it be to have Micron performance for less than half the price without having to resort to an Olympos with it's needles made out of toilet paper?

Hmm, it seems as though my ability to edit the original post is gone - I have ZERO desire to start a pissing match about this air brush, and would LOVE to edit the original post with the disclaimer "that this is what I did, and I do NOT recommend it to anyone else!" Sheesh....

Hmm, it seems as though my ability to edit the original post is gone - I have ZERO desire to start a pissing match about this air brush, and would LOVE to edit the original post with the disclaimer "that this is what I did, and I do NOT recommend it to anyone else!" Sheesh....

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Don't let this get to you Dave, I saw the point of your experimenting and some don't see the point or maybe just don;t see the need for it, I couldn't afford to do similar stuff but if money wasn't an object, or my age and strength for that matter i would most likely try other things too, you made a few modifications to a brush and it paid off so just be proud of it, and you did it all with your own money so i don;t see why anyone at all should have a problem

@DaveG it's just the point of view of all of us, and it's very nice to have this kind of arguing, because let people know a lot of diferent point of view and get their own ideas. As @Malky saids, you do what you want and be happy with that. To me it's just basic fluid dynamics, no matter what you do, a cheap machine will perform always as a cheap machine. That been said, I really apreciate people like you whom are always looking to help others.

Hmm, it seems as though my ability to edit the original post is gone - I have ZERO desire to start a pissing match about this air brush, and would LOVE to edit the original post with the disclaimer "that this is what I did, and I do NOT recommend it to anyone else!" Sheesh....

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Don't stop sharing this kind of stuff. I find it very fascinating. I love tinkering with stuff and swapping parts out. To each his own.

You could never compare a Chery Tiggo with a Toyota Rav4, no matter if one is the copy of the other and even if you put the toyota engine in the Chery.

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You're conflating comparing with equating. By saying the Chery is not equivalent to the Toyota, you are explicitly comparing them. What I was asking (metaphorically speaking) was for a rundown of why and how the Chery is inferior (or not) to the Toyota, and by how much, by someone who has owned and/or serviced both.

People have strong opinions both ways about Chinese brushes: that's not new. The reviews and testimonials out there are 99% "Chinese brushes are crap" vs. "no need to spend on overpriced brands when this one will do it all!". For a newbie trying to decide, this is just an empty "he said/she said" fight, with no actual hard info to help cut through the deadlock. They might as well make the decision by flipping a coin. You gotta be willing/able to provide real details, otherwise you're only trying to browbeat folks into blind compliance instead of helpfully informing them.

As others have said,, this thread is more applicable to people who can't afford a Micron, rather than absolute newbies, but IMO the above is super relevant to discussions of Chinese brushes and reviews in general. Specific hard info and comparisons are always far more useful than generalizations.

I have the same concerns as AndreZA RE: the threading being consistently compatible. I think we'd need to identify which specific knock-off brands are buying from which specific factories before this would be recommendable. But it is very interesting to know that it's possible.

I have the same concerns as AndreZA RE: the threading being consistently compatible. I think we'd need to identify which specific knock-off brands are buying from which specific factories before this would be recommendable. But it is very interesting to know that it's possible.

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Yes, I have this concern as well - that there are knock off's of knock offs. I looked at the photo that Vladimir posted earlier in this thread of a CM-C+ knock-off that he had. Aside from the physical differences I then described, I noticed one more big one - there is a small retaining screw on the underside of the brush, behind the air valve. The G444 (CM-C+ clone from "Master") I tried does not have this screw. I have since searched Amazon and E-bay and found two which I believe are the ones with the retaining screw, and ordered them ($20 and $25 each).

I will do my best to identify the specifics of the brush(es) as well as where (the Specific Re-seller) they were purchased from, as well as cautioning that there is always the possibility they are not the same, or may not work.

EDIT: I just looked at the tracking info I received from one E-bay seller going by one name, and one Amazon seller going by a different name - and the shipment origin for both is the same town in Florida

You're conflating comparing with equating. By saying the Chery is not equivalent to the Toyota, you are explicitly comparing them. What I was asking (metaphorically speaking) was for a rundown of why and how the Chery is inferior (or not) to the Toyota, and by how much, by someone who has owned and/or serviced both.

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Sorry mate but I'm not conflating anything, I'm comparing two 4x4 subs, one being a knockoff of the other, both supposed to do the same, but with a huge difference in price and quality of manufacturing. So it's excatly the same that you ask but with cars (I 've owned both). And I only saids that you could neve compare because there are a lot of difference in manufacturing that make the two worlds completely different. So to me you could neve do an objective rundown with those brushes, can do it with an iwata eclipse, revolution and a H&S evolution, with a micron and a infinity because they have almost the same quality in manufacturing, can compare nike with adidas, rebook, etc, but never any of then with fumanchu shoes. Dewalt with Bosh, makita, etc, of course, any of them with fumanchu tools? don't think so.
Knok off with knooff? That is great, branded with unbranded? Not a fair fight nor objective.

If you want to help, compare brushes of the same quality.
People could do SIMILAR paintings with both (olympo-iwata)? yes, in the hands of an expert (not in my hands), but with diferent amount of effort!!

In you own post you are repeatedly, explicitly comparing different brushes in order to illustrate how you can't equate them. Two things being "in a different class" not only doesn't rule out comparison, but is itself both a direct comparison, and an implication of prior comparison.

I'm not sure what you're thinking of when you're saying an objective rundown isn't possible, as you absolutely can put them side-to side and state which one appears to have objectively better plating, better machining, better part fit, or smoother action. You can absolutely take them to the canvas and see which one gets better atomization, or which one draws a finer line, has a more consistent spray pattern, is more or less prone to clogging, or cleans with less flushing/scrubbing, and so on. Sure there's going to be stuff that's subject to preference, like balance or trigger feel, but anything that can measured and tested can be objectively compared.

You can bring up different applications or budgets, but all that does is add preconditions or qualifiers to the comparison. An apples and oranges comparison would be comparing a gravity feed to a siphon feed, or an airbrush to an HVLP gun... but even that is a valid comparison, if one is comparing their utility for given needs and circumstances rather than their quality. These things only become non-comparable if you limit the comparison to within a given set of of preconditions (if your precondition is a budget of $150, or a spray pattern of >12", then a real Micron can't even qualify).

This discussion isn't apples and oranges though, because one brush is a direct copy of the other. That's as apples-to-apples as it gets: they are the same design, made for the same jobs, the only question is which performs better, to what degree, and in what ways*. It's HIGHLY testable, and VERY direct. The results may be a forgone conclusion in your eyes, but the point of a documented comparison, especially in a review context, is that not everyone is going to be coming the issue with the same level of experience and foreknowledge.

You might hold it as a matter of principle that they SHOULDN'T be compared, but the internet is overflowing with reviews telling newbies to buy the Chinese brushes instead of the name brand stuff. The world is already making this comparison, and will continue to do so, whether you like it or not. The question is, do you want it be decided by whichever side shouts loudest, or by actual hard information?

*You coud point out that the only reason to make such a comparison is if you can't afford a real Micron to begin with, which in turn would render the comparison moot. But it is still useful to know just how much of a Micron-like performance you'd be getting, and how that compares to brushes within one's budget category, such as the mentioned SOTAR (thanks again, DaveG!).

No, none of the above. But my father was a physicist, so I grew up with a sciences background. I lean hard towards analytical approaches, with a streak of sometimes excessive pedantry borne of a desire to be exact.

Plus I don't think in words/language, so when I speak or write, everything is deliberate and I tend to "overengineer" my phrasing.

You sound like a soft sciences guy to me, don't get me wrong, I like how you express yourself, I don't agree with you in any manner, due to my knowledge you are comparing apple to orange here, due to the surface finishing, materials, and other manufacturing issues. As this will be endless and the key of happyness is, never argue with nobody.

Well, you're still mostly just doubling down on your misapplication of the definition of "comparison", despite my repeated attempts at clarification. Which means you've diverted yourself into a phantom argument against an imagined position unrelated to what I'm actually saying.

The "soft sciences" thing is a bit of a head scratcher. Since you haven't really presented a counter to anything I've said, it comes across as more of a weak attempt at ad-hominem. My entire thrust has been advocating for "harder" data. Your entire thrust (assuming you aren't engaged in a straw man based on inferring the wrong definition of "compare") seems to be that hard data is either impossible, irrelevant, or undesirable. Trying to throw shade about alleged "soft science" doesn't really make sense if your own stance is all about being tapioca and proud. If "soft science" is meant to be critical, that implies you should be pushing for real data more than I am. If you don't believe data is relevant, possible, or desirable, then any hard/soft distinction would be meaningless to you.

The only basis I can guess at is you're maybe mistaking rhetorical logic for a "soft science" thing? Or maybe just mentioning the role of reviews and/or encouraging thinking about communication in utilitarian terms somehow counts as "anthropology"? Both of those would also have unfortunate corollaries.

If you have some kind of background in engineering or manufacturing, or have personal experiences with the brushes in question, well, that's exactly the sort of information I'm asking for. And you'd have no reason not to share it, as it would presumably support... whatever it is you're arguing? So it'd be win/win for both of us... except your argument seems to be based on rejecting the validity/applicability of such information? I'm not looking to "win" either side of the Chinese brush debate, I'm just asking for better, clearer information within said debate.

Well, you're still mostly just doubling down on your misapplication of the definition of "comparison", despite my repeated attempts at clarification. Which means you've diverted yourself into a phantom argument against an imagined position unrelated to what I'm actually saying.

The "soft sciences" thing is a bit of a head scratcher. Since you haven't really presented a counter to anything I've said, it comes across as more of a weak attempt at ad-hominem. My entire thrust has been advocating for "harder" data. Your entire thrust (assuming you aren't engaged in a straw man based on inferring the wrong definition of "compare") seems to be that hard data is either impossible, irrelevant, or undesirable. Trying to throw shade about alleged "soft science" doesn't really make sense if your own stance is all about being tapioca and proud. If "soft science" is meant to be critical, that implies you should be pushing for real data more than I am. If you don't believe data is relevant, possible, or desirable, then any hard/soft distinction would be meaningless to you.

The only basis I can guess at is you're maybe mistaking rhetorical logic for a "soft science" thing? Or maybe just mentioning the role of reviews and/or encouraging thinking about communication in utilitarian terms somehow counts as "anthropology"? Both of those would also have unfortunate corollaries.

If you have some kind of background in engineering or manufacturing, or have personal experiences with the brushes in question, well, that's exactly the sort of information I'm asking for. And you'd have no reason not to share it, as it would presumably support... whatever it is you're arguing? So it'd be win/win for both of us... except your argument seems to be based on rejecting the validity/applicability of such information? I'm not looking to "win" either side of the Chinese brush debate, I'm just asking for better, clearer information within said debate.

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I agree totally with all your points here Nessus, but I think you could well be flogging a dead horse, and I don't mean that in any disrespectful way, you are well known for your intelligent responses, but I think your precise and clinical phrasing may be lost on anyone who's first language isn't English, some in order totally understand every word you say would require basic phrases, I have strong feeling that that is the reason you have difficulty getting your true point across, English is my first language and I have to read some your posts twice, that doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong though, that just mean I should have listened better at school,

I think "Soft science" was actually a compliment meaning that you are wise enough take a scientific or logical approach to a problem as opposed a haphazard bull in a china shop strategy, at least that's how I understood it

Even if we dial it back, to the non-comparison comparison of the two automobiles that can't be compared (apples /oranges) it seems to me that the criteria separating the two types of "fruit" there, would simply be "quality". If the test were simply to get one to work everyday, both the apple and the orange meet the criteria (most days anyway) and could be compared one to the other

If what you have is a tool that uses air to atomize paint, and apply it to a surface as a spray, then I would suggest anything that accomplishes that task is up for comparison. Now, within these comparisons you would certainly develop categories, as well as perhaps a hierarchy. How each individual test subject stacks up to the other, will be based largely on the end users expectations, likes, and personal preference - if in the end, each tool passes a very minimal qualifying standard - of atomizing paint.

If you start breaking each down into exactly why they can not be compared directly to each other, well those conclusions, are in themselves based on a direct comparison

Actually I can read and understand English very well, my issue is with talking and writing as I don't do it very often. I'm a Mechanical Engineer, trying to get my degree as an Industrial engineer, currently working in a Thermal Energy Plant as a turbine operator and in a luky day doing some servicing on them.
Thank you @DaveG that is what i was trying to say, I can't put them in the same category, as they has been manufactured with diferent qualities, diferent markets and diferent goals, at least to my eyes.
The soft science question don't have nothing to do with the original theme, it was only a side question, due to that called my atention the way he speak, just that.

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