With SWTOR’s expansions, the HoTlander has reached a whole different level, and this fact seems to be overlooked in the forums. So, I've decided make this a one big thread, instead of having the same discussion in multiple threads. The Outlander is now above Arcann and even Vaylin (and arguably Revan), which makes him the second most powerful Force user of SWTOR era.

Shoutout to DMB and The Muser for helping me locate some of the quotes that I used in this thread.

From Act I to late-KOTET, he constantly gets stronger and stronger, but how strong was he from the beginning, and just how much more powerful did he become? I’ll go through his career and analyze the progress he makes to answer these questions.

Act I:
Even before he gets his lightsaber, HoT’s declared as the Jedi’s finest by Orgus Din and Bengel Morr, and he is referred to as “a Jedi with no equal” by the Grand Master Satele herself.

quote:

The Force is strong in him. Stronger than I have seen in decades.

— Orgus Din

quote:

You’re stronger than any Jedi I’ve known.”

— Bengel Morr

Both Orgus and Bengel were present in the Sacking of Coruscant, and Orgus says “in decades” after only one decade of years passes from the Sacking. The accolade isn’t exclusive to the weakened post-Sacking Jedi Order, but the Order in its entirety that both Bengel and Orgus had the chance to observe for years before the Sith attacked. More importantly, Bengel declares him the strongest after the Hero defeats him in combat, meaning that he is talking about his already actualized power that he brought to that fight. So, not his potential. The Grand Master of the Order declaring him their greatest shortly after supports this notion. Orgus himself admits that there is nothing more he can teach the Hero before he even gets the chance to construct a lightsaber for himself.

How could he be so strong and ahead of others, so early on? Well, it is truly exceptional in the lore, but not unexpected. Hero’s coming was foreseen 300 years before his birth by Lord Scourge, who foresaw the prophecy of a Jedi defeating the Emperor. The vision was so clear that Scourge could easily recognize the Hero’s face when he saw him in Act II. The only being with a prophecy with such hype is Anakin Skywalker, and he is an anomaly who is considered to be a demigod. It is really not surprising to see HoT outclass his fellow Jedi from so early on, since he is also a unique case.

quote:

In a sudden moment of clarity he saw the Emperor lying defeated at the feet of a powerful Jedi.

quote:

Scourge had seen that champion in his final vision. Blessed with eternal life, Scourge would serve faithfully at the Emperor’s side, biding his time as he waited for that champion to emerge from the mists of time.

- TOR:Revan

Now, why is it so important that he is more powerful than the rest of the Jedi? Well, other than the impressiveness of being the greatest so early on by itself, this puts him above Act I Barsen’thor, who has already achieved his best feat by then. The feat is defeating Lord Vivicar right after defeating Yuon Par, who was feeding off of Barsen’thor’s power and weakening him. When facing them, he was weakened by repeatedly using the Shielding Technique (prior Jedi to use it for once had to sacrifice himself due to the energy consumption required for the technique). In contrast, Vivicar was gathering a lot more power for himself, since he was siphoning the energies of hundreds of Jedi. Barsent’hor still came out the victor.

Him being more powerful than Satele Shan, Darth Marr’s equal by his own admittance, is also very important. Darth Marr is amongst a handful of the most powerful Sith in the Empire, after the Emperor. He is stated to be “second to none”. Accolades of this sort amongst Sith of the era are shared by only Darth Jadus, and of course, Emperor Vitiate himself:

quote:

In the Emperor's absence, the galaxy's most domineering, powerful, brilliant, and cunning Sith lead the Empire's path to glory.

quote:

When Marr speaks, he commands the attention of the entire Dark Council with intimidating authority and stern wisdom.

- SWTORE

This means that Darth Marr is superior to the likes of Darth Howl, a council member, let alone Darth Howl’s vast inferior in Darth Chratis, who only dreams of joining the Dark Council. However, Chratis is still incomparably more powerful than his apprentice Eldon Ax. He could “strike her down as easily as swatting a fly”. Eldon Ax is a capable warrior, and even manages to defend against firepower of hex droids, while injured:

quote:

The girl was on her feet now. The moment her lightsaber activated, the hexes noticed her. Fourteen streams of energy pulses converged and Ula had time enough to feel sorry for her before she vanished into a glowing sphere of light.
...
Ula was staring at the Sith girl. Amazingly, she hadn't died in the concentrated attack. Even more amazingly, she was still standing, and looking angrier than ever.
. . . .
Ax raised herself to her knees, and from there, with a supreme effort of will, to her feet. The world swayed around her, but the scream was intact, and growing. The dark side swelled inside her.
The creatures from the vault saw her, and instantly turned their blue pulses onto her.
She set the scream free.
A Force barrier surrounded her, bare millimeters from her skin. It shimmered and flickered as wave after wave of energy crashed against it, but it held. It held as long as she screamed, as long as she didn't want to die.
. . . .
Ax felt like she was being swallowed whole by a space slug. Even through the Force barrier she threw around herself as protection from the tumbling surf of rock, every sharp edge and crushing pressure squeezed the breath utterly from her.
. . . .
Its black sense organs tracked her every movement. But every blue pulse it fired at her was reflected by the Force barrier, and every wild slash of its razor-sharp limbs was deflected harmlessly.
. . . .
Two more floors. Three. She threw up a barrier to prevent the heat of the jetpack from flaying away her skin.
. . . .
Her Force shield repelled all but the most concentrated fire.

- TOR:Fatal Alliance __

Act II:
As he keeps on growing in power in this act, he finally faces a challenging opponent, when he fights the Emperor’s Wrath. Despite the great hype he has (like having “incredible potential” according to Revan and training time/ combat experience that he has maybe 5 times more than most Jedi/Sith do to actualize it + his killstreak and “even the Dark Council fears him”), prime Scourge’s most impressive feat is actually stalemating Act II HoT. Even though he appeared to have lost, it can be considered a stalemate, because Scourge “broke off the battle” on purpose as his main purpose is to help the Hero. This feat will be valuable as I go through the next act in the second part.

Act III:
When he is to face the Emperor in Act III, he asks the council or at least Satele Shan to join him in the fight, but Satele thinks that “the risk is too great” because of Vitiate’s TP. Some claim that this has to with knowing the technique or having experience on Vitiate’s TP attacks, but keep in mind that Scourge (Satele’s superior), who learned the defense technique against the TP attack from Revan and then spent 300 years with the main occupation of studying everything about the Emperor refused to face him just like the others:

quote:

I will fly us to the Emperor’s temple, but you must face him alone. No one else can resist his direct influence.

The only explanation that we are left with is an increase in HoT’s power, as he is now significantly more powerful than his equal in Act II. This means that he was above everyone else in the order in Act I, then grew more powerful in Act II, and then significantly more powerful in Act III.

In Act III Finale, the HoT faces the Emperor and kills him. This feat is a lot more impressive than most people realize. The Emperor was weakened, but he was still powerful enough to bring down a huge portion of the Dark Temple. This is after the Hero strikes him down. Being struck down causes Vitiate to lose so much of his power, that he wasn’t able to come back to physical plane on his own, and was said to be at “the brink of death”. He had to grab more power in Yavin, and then in Ziost to become similarly powerful again. This means that he was considerably more powerful before he was struck down, when he is fighting the Hero. However, the Hero has no problem defending against his force attacks and he cuts him down. The circumstances of this feat make it all the more impressive:
- Hero gave Vitiate the time to recover more power in order to save his allies.
- The Hero had to fight through Kaas City and Vitiate’s most elite guards.
- The Hero does all of this this on a dark side nexus so powerful, that in Myteries of the Sith, Kyle Katarn was turned to the dark side by its influence. Even the likes of Luke and Jaina struggled with the nexus:

quote:

The planet he was regarding with such intensity was either ocean or marsh, with very little dry land. It was a marked contrast with Korriban, which had been their last stop. But it was, to Luke’s mind, every bit as dangerous. Maybe more."
…
"We need to watch one another closely. If Master Katarn could be swayed, then any of us could. Not just Vestara.”
...
Luke stood for a moment, his eyes and other senses searching the landscape. “Anyone sense anything?”
Ben extended himself in the Force, both opening himself to the vile sensation of the dark side and utilizing his senses—even smell, temporarily at least—to gather what information he could.
“Other than the obvious, which is a metric ton of dark-side energy, I can’t sense anything,” Jaina said.
...
“It’s_…_so strong,” Vestara breathed. Ben glanced over at her. Her brown eyes were wide, and her voice was a mixture of horror and attraction.
“Vestara,” Luke said, sharply but not angrily, and she blinked as if coming out of a daze. “Do you sense any signs of the Sith or Abeloth?”
She shook her head, looking more like her usual alert self. “No. That nexus pretty much drowns out anything else.”
...
Luke and Jaina were fighting back-to-back. The Sith attacking them had two advantages. One was the fact that they outnumbered the two Jedi. The second was that they were being reinforced by the emanations of the dark-side nexus within the temple. It surged forth like psychic sewage, clogging the Jedi’s reflexes as it fueled their enemies.
...
“I don’t think you did,” Luke replied. “They probably assumed we’d do exactly what we have been doing—investigating planets traditionally associated with Sith history. Khai probably chose this place because of the nexus. They could send a smaller team and still be stronger.”

SoR:
His natural growth continues, and Scourge was so impressed with him at this point, that he sees HoT being training in the restraining ways of the Jedi to be a tragic waste, since Scourge is a Sith. He even comments on how he plans to make sure HoT’s potential children don’t go to waste in the same manner:

quote:

Had you been trained in the true way of the Force, the galaxy could not match your power. I will make sure that mistake does not happen again

-SWTOR: Shadow of Revan
And Satele Shan gives him the Battlemaster title right after the events of Shadow of Revan:

quote:

You embody every ideal in the Jedi Code. The Council is unanimous in its decision to name you Battlemaster of the order

-SWTOR: Shadow of Revan

Even though the Battlemaster title is carried by those with relatively less impressive showings, the Hero is a unique case. It gives us a way of assessing his dueling abilities (this is even more valuable since it is always harder to analyze an MMO character). We know that the hero is at least powerful enough to defend against attacks from weakened Vitiate, who was still more powerful than when he was bringing down the temple, not to mention the scaling he gets from Satele/Marr and Barsen’thor so early on. A Force user’s dueling abilities are determined by;
- strength
- speed
- skill

He has mastered all of the lightsaber forms, since he is a battlemaster. Given how powerful he is, his force amp that grants him his speed and strength are imo at least on the same level with someone like Count Dooku, who in actuality, has no scaling, nor accolades that compare with SoR HoT’s. Feats wise, I’d be happy to see someone point to a showing from Dooku that is superior to HoT’s scaling from other feats, or his own feat against Vitiate. However, the point here is not to specifically compare him to Dooku, but to use Dooku as a reference point. We can compare this version of HoT to whoever, but I personally think the most reasonable comparisons would be with characters around Dooku’s level, rather than Kenobi, or Exar Kun. It is also worth mentioning that force power doesn’t always translate to prowess in dueling, but that is usually a force user’s impotence in melee combat or lack of technical skill. The Hero, being the Jedi Knight class, specializes on melee combat, and has perfected his skills as the Battlemaster, so if anything, he is more than likely a more capable duelist than a force user.

KotFE:
The two fights where the HoTlander fights Arcann are the two most relevant feats in this season of the story. In the first fight, Arcann out-duels the HoTlander and is even able to ragdoll him with the Force. In the second fight, the Hotlander can handle his force offense, and defeat him in a lightsaber duel. There are two amps that the Hotlander receives that causes this difference between the two fights:
1) The amp that the HoTlander receives from Valkorion. He “strengthens his connection with the Force”, and makes him permanently more powerful.
2) The training, new philosophy and the new lightsaber he gets from Satele Shan and Darth Marr.

Both these factors are obviously very significant, because according to Satele Shan, Arcann’s application of the Force grants him a significant advantage against both Jedi and Sith:

quote:

Arcann and his Knights learned to use the Force in a different way from Jedi and Sith. It's why we couldn't truly defeat them.

- SWTOR:KOTFE

This means that if the amp he receives from Valkorion is insignificant, than Arcann’s unique application of the Force grants him the ability to ragdoll combatants on his own level, since the HoTlander fights on Arcann’s level in the Force in the second fight, and gets ragdolled in the first fight. This notion is unreasonable, but given that Satele confirms Arcann’s uniqueness is at least a significant factor, both factors should be closely important, and the amp he receives from Valk is logically more potent than Arcann’s unique philosophy. This means that at the end of KOTFE, the Hotlander nearly reached a level where he could ragdoll his previous self. That makes him significantly above his earlier self by the end of KOTFE.

KOTET:
At this point, Vaylin is already significantly more powerful than Arcann. In Chapter 6, Outlander refers to Arcann facing her alone as a suicidal attempt. Arcann was fighting Vaylin equally in sabers, but without the Outlander’s interference, Vaylin was going to kill Arcann with her superior power.

In Chapter 3, Vaylin defeats the Outlander, once again with her superior power. After they fight for a while, Vaylin TK’s the Outlander, with one rapid attack. This is before Vaylin frees herself from her chains. After she frees herself, the entire plot is based on how much more powerful she now is. She fights Arcann, Senya and the Outlander at the same time. At first, they make her drop to a knee. At that point, Vaylin starts taking things more seriously and unleashes an areal force attack that sends Arcann and Senya flying, but the Outlander stand his ground against it and pushes through the attack, finally slaying Vaylin. Now, it is true that the attack was areal, and therefore, not as potent as a focused attack would be, but Vaylin went into trance and unleashed her power more intensely than she normally could. She was focused on the attack so much that she cut herself connection to everything else, making her unable to even notice the Outlander slowly walking up to her and cutting her down. The Outlander being able to defend through this attack and walk up to her is enough proof that he is not outclassed in the force by her anymore. He is a considerably better duelist too, so we can pretty much put the Outlander above Vaylin now. Not to mention, his story continues as he gains more experience and grows more powerful in each patch/expansion that comes out.

So, Prime Outlander is on Vaylin's level in the Force, and better as a combatant. Vaylin is considerably above Arcann. Arcann is also considerably superior to SoR/early-KotFE HoTlander, who in return, is a better version of what he is in Act III.

The Outlander is now the second most powerful being of the era (perhaps along with Revan) and he is the supreme leader of the galaxy. Imo, he is easily on the same level with the likes of Caedus, Revan, Krayt, Kun, Vader etc. and perhaps he even surpassed them already.

Originally posted by carthage Powerful enough t struggle with a single stalagmite

Already addressed this, but HoT just takes his time with it. He makes no facial impressions that suggest this. He is probably enjoying killing the Emperor, especially since this is dark side ending.

Are we to scale the entire PT from Yoda's TK feat in AOTC? Since Yoda actually appears to have a hard time with it, and Dooku was running away because of this, which would make it retarded for Yoda to take his time, unlike the Hero?