(10-28-2016 01:24 PM)Parzival Wrote: Its not BJJ its Japanese JJ. I would even say its German JJ because it has a tradition since the 70s in Germany and get adopt quite a lot for pure self defence. Many police units use it. The place where I want to go is a Police sports club. So the purpose is self defence. I did JJ when I was 10 or 11 for a year or so. First we did learn to fall correct what I absolute disliked after all the van damme movies I watched. Only the loser land on the ground. I also did some wing tsung. They over also Krav Maga and Kali at the sports club. I consider Ju Jitus are more complete system then Krav Maga thats why I prefer JJ.

[video=youtube]UJ_GmoKT9M0[/video]

There is a video. It mainly talk about the self defence lectures. The young girl said her mom already did it and now she too because of all the refugee attacks. Also they mention in the past they had 2 lectures like this in the year and now 2 in the month.

I just will do it, 2 times a week and when I get a little used to it I can also pick up boxing once or twice per week again. And still lifting my weights.

Anyone can feel free to point out my mistakes but I believe there's basically three types of jiu-jitsu or jujutsu (alternative spellings) around these days:

-brazilian jiu-jitsu
-traditional japanese jujutsu
-european jujutsu

From there on european jujutsu is divided into a few substyles based on the country and founder and traditional japanese jujutsu usually refers to aikijujutsu, the father art of aikido and is consequently mostly stand-up grappling. Any other traditional japanese or okinawan based jujutsu styles are more or less obscure to the extent that they do not have enough distribution to have gained a negative or positive reputation. In the age of MMA where aikido is mostly seen as a joke, aikijujutsu is consequently seen as suboptimal as well due to its limitations.

European jujutsu (german, finnish etc.) is a bit like krav maga but without the military emphasis and with more diversity in techniques; cheap shots are not emphasized over solid technique and competition is encouraged where some techniques may be illegal but national championships are held.
As such european jujutsu styles do not differ drastically from many if not most styles of hapkido for example, which would purport to be the korean equivalent of a complete fighting system, equally derived from japanese jujutsu/judo background, only with more emphasis on taekwondo style flashy kicks.

The criticism of european jujutsu I have seen, which is probably applicable to many styles, is that they feed practitioners a large collection of tricks to draw from and consequently the students fail to truly excell in any one fighting range or skill. This allegation receives some support from competitions where guys with strong backgrounds in one physical art (eg.judo) reign supreme against far more highly ranked jujutsu guys.

Alright fellas. Election is over and it's time to get back to the business.

Let's take a look at real world videos of fights and self defense situations and see what we can learn from them. I will start off with some knife situations, maybe do 1 video a week or something like that. This could be alot of fun.

Allow me to introduce you guys to John @ Active Self Protection (ASP)

So in this video, he goes on to describe a knife disarmament that happened allegedly in China by a Special Police officer (a woman at that!).

While John does not know what martial art the woman used, we can discuss that in this thread, because we know what was used.

Basically, we are looking at Aikido. Perhaps a Chinese modified Aikido mixed with Chinese San da/San Shou that is something Chinese Police are required to train in.

If you want to know why I say there is some Chinese San Shou, it is due to the very quick leg sweep. That awkward looking angle is very much like the trips/sweeps/throws of CSS (which if you do not know what CSS is, it's basically Chinese Muay Thai/Kickboxing).

If the video quality was better we could see what wrist lock or grip she used, to see which exact technique she used, but that is not an option.

This brings up other items as well:

1. In a knife situation, you may have shit on the floor, obstacles in between you and the attacker. You may have to use a funky angle to finish your technique or compensate due to circumstances in the situation.

2. Had the knife not come out on impact with the ground, always followup with whatever you were trained to use. (Knees on their wrists to break the grip, wrists presses, grab the bottom of the knife and remove with your other hand, wrist drag on the ground, Kimura lock their hand across their back to encourage them to let it go so they won't cut their back open)

3. Never let go of a guy you have disarmed until you can kick the knife out of range. (She had Police backup, so that was kinda okay for her) Don't encourage others you do not know to pick up the weapon. You should secure the weapon.

4. She chose this throw because she is not supposed to hurt the guy as a police officer. You do not have that restriction and never use it as a factor unless the person with the knife is a loved one. (like a family member or intimate/romantically involved person) Without the restriction, you can use less risky disarms.

5. If this woman was not tall or large compared to the knife holder, she may not have been able to make that disarm work. Had that guy been 230lbs+, that could have ended badly. Keep these things into account. Experienced Judokas and Aikido practitioners usually know this, but if you are starting out, don't assume perfect technique will always work against a much larger opponent. Don't drink the white belt koolaid, that you are now hot shit against a large untrained foe. Our techniques just give us mere leverage against a larger opponent, not an I-WIN button against larger people. Always respect size and weight!

If a person with a knife is much bigger avoid strikes and throws. Instead try raw disarms like wrist and small joint manipulations to get the knife to drop first, THEN throw, sweep, strike, etc.

Finally, John in the video was right. Have a plan, use Speed, Surprise, and Aggression. Even if you never do this full speed in a class, in the moment, you will find the speed if you practiced doing this enough times. Repetition is always first and key. Speed will always be second and will come later.

If you guys like these, we can do more, just let me know or if you know of some good videos we can look at, post them so we can discuss.

^Kai: that is a beautifully executed Kotegaeshi, so 100% Aikido. You can say Jujutsu too, but the grander movement means it is Aikido. When she (sure its a woman?) did the ground arm lock however Im pretty damn sure this is what I see everyday in class.

3 years in aikido and I'm still trying to perfect this technique. This and shihonage are pretty good for weapon defense. The Jujutsu guys however prefers it more direct: instead of make a huge circle with the knifer arm he would just make a smaller circle with the wrist. This would either force a breakfall, or a wrist-break.

I wouldnt call this a self defense situation however... The guy wasn't attacking the cop, his knife wasnt pointing at him. This changes A LOT IMO.

You are correct that had the cop been smaller, this wouldnt be pulled off that easily. Unless you unbalance him first, a stonger guy can easily resist a forced turn on his wrist. If the guy was bigger and have a knife, shoot/taze the fucker or fucking run.

(11-14-2016 12:35 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote: ^Kai: that is a beautifully executed Kotegaeshi, so 100% Aikido. You can say Jujutsu too, but the grander movement means it is Aikido. When she (sure its a woman?) did the ground arm lock however Im pretty damn sure this is what I see everyday in class.

3 years in aikido and I'm still trying to perfect this technique. This and shihonage are pretty good for weapon defense. The Jujutsu guys however prefers it more direct: instead of make a huge circle with the knifer arm he would just make a smaller circle with the wrist. This would either force a breakfall, or a wrist-break.

I wouldnt call this a self defense situation however... The guy wasn't attacking the cop, his knife wasnt pointing at him. This changes A LOT IMO.

You are correct that had the cop been smaller, this wouldnt be pulled off that easily. Unless you unbalance him first, a stonger guy can easily resist a forced turn on his wrist. If the guy was bigger and have a knife, shoot/taze the fucker or fucking run.

Commenters say it is a woman and I saw what looked like a hair braid after she had taken him down, although it is a little bit too blurry. The guy is skinny and short, and the cop is bigger and taller by a good bit, so in the grand scheme of things it almost wouldn't matter too much because they are not equals in terms of raw power. His nearly broken in the air arm demonstrated that.

Correct that is a variant of Kotegaeshi. You are also correct that us JJ guys would have preferred a smaller circle variant or used something else to avoid potential for the bad guy to reach around or resist and stab. We also would have been more likely to slice his wrist or stomach with the knife or finished him in some way. You have to take out the parts not necessary to stay within legal requirements if you practice JJ.

Aikido guys are more likely to use alot more force than us in real life, because an attacker does not know how to roll along to avoid a broken arm you see in Aikido demonstrations, which is very funny considering why it was created in the first place. ALSO another reason why I tell guys not to look down on Aikido as weak!!! Aikido's movesets were the preferred style of defense for Japanese Samurai in general because it works well while maneuvering with a Japanese sword in hand or on waist.

It is a self defense situation. The guy with a knife is presenting a danger to everyone around him including the cop. She just caught him off guard. Had she come up to him in front, he would have tried to stab her. Had she been too slow with her kote, he could have stabbed her neck or face midway into the technique.

Anytime force is required to regain peace on your behalf or others, is a self defense situation. Had she ran away instead, that is still a self defense situation, she just chose to run away instead, which is still a valid strategy.

For a bigger guy, it's hard to say in a way, what would have been better to use. For a 230+lbs guy, she should have just gotten a group of officers to approach with riot shields and use batons to subdue him. Just circle him up. Tasers do not always subdue a person. John has another video where a guy was tased by a cop, and the guy pulled out a gun and shot the cop back. In that situation, better to multiply non-lethal force since he was clearly looking for a standoff. A taser baton paired with a shield is good, along with rubber shotgun use.

Asian cops trying to subdue a 250+ lbs Rugby player from Australia on a roid rage, may be too much to subdue with 5 guys. A supervisor needs to be able to size up every situation and choose the correct response tactic.

In America, they would have just shot his ass most likely and been done with it, had he not dropped it and came forward even a little bit. They have zero empty hand skills, and mandatory taser use varies too much depending upon local jurisdictions. Knives are considered deadly force here by legal definition, so gun vs knife has little to no distinction here legally.

^ This is an assassination. If you find yourself 5ft from a guy with a knife intent on killing you, and you're unarmed, you're a dead man regardless of who you are and how badass you may otherwise be. That's the unpalatable truth of the fragility of the human body. This is why so much of self defense focuses on conflict avoidance. This situation is unsurvivable.

The good thing is that these situations do not happen randomly for the most part, unless you're unlucky enough to come across some kid who needs a kill to prove himself to a gang he's looking to join, or you're incarcerated with some serious felons and you're the wrong colour at the wrong time (or you give toothy head).

I dont need to say more than what's your take on the situation. The description under the vid is good too: the 4 ways to view this situation.

There s so many things to discuss here. Is this avoidable? How to defend against it? How to foresee it? Etc.

And this is actually what real violent crime looks like, if my old Sensei cop was right.

This is one of those videos intended to shock or stun people into thinking it is impossible to defend against a knife attack by using a staged setup.

Obviously both people are martial artists. If I grabbed a knife and went on a rampage, I'm pretty sure several people would be killed before I get stopped. This just isn't realistic though. The odds of a well trained knife fighters openly attempting to kill random people might be lower than getting struck by lightning.

They might as well had showed a video of what would happen if a modern day Samurai tried to kill you with a katana. The Japanese guys that cut rolled tatami mats, would slice a heavy sword at this exact same speed.

Anyway I digress. Prison shanks are about the same speed as this trained guy with a full sized knife, and are arguably more dangerous because their size makes tracking with your eyes, extremely hard. People like myself are no exception. In a shank situation I would honestly expect to get stabbed 1-2 times before I can stop the attack.

Another problem I have with this video is the guy with the coat, basically panicked and did nothing. Anyone pretending to be a "regular guy" in a dojo, but using a coat or a jacket, like trained knife fighters know how to use (like Filipinos do), why would you fall on your ass right away and fail your arms around like a little bitch?

Your video is literally no different than Milkshake's first video here. They attempted the exact same thing to ellict some kind of debunking of what a knife fight or attack would look like, when that is not honestly something you can predict in a way. People react differently, and stabs don't feel like a hit with a baseball bat. Adrenaline kicks in until the attack is over with. Unless you are truly being stabbed, you cannot know if you will fall on your ass or flail like a little girl.

Let's look at an actual stabbing to see what a real persons reaction to it are like.

Notice that the guy does not actual fall down until well after the attack is over and the adrenaline is gone, and he has lost too much blood.

Another video:

This guy doesn't fall down until after the guy hammerfists him on the top of his head with the bottom on the knife in his hand. He took several stabs while standing and had plenty of chances to stop the attack, if he had some skills. The fact that he stood their stunned like a lamb, at the front door when that attacker was rushing him, proves that he was way too soft in his demeanor to have even a prayers chance to stop that attack. Not once did he try to slam his door or lock it.

I digress, but the point is that you have to stay calm, use the Adrenaline rush to your advantage and not freak out. Thinking like, "OMG did he just freaking stab me?!!!" will get you killed. Staying focused, and like that guy John likes to say, "Stay in the fight!", can help you survive a knife attack.

(11-15-2016 09:55 AM)H1N1 Wrote: ^ This is an assassination. If you find yourself 5ft from a guy with a knife intent on killing you, and you're unarmed, you're a dead man regardless of who you are and how badass you may otherwise be. That's the unpalatable truth of the fragility of the human body. This is why so much of self defense focuses on conflict avoidance. This situation is unsurvivable.

The good thing is that these situations do not happen randomly for the most part, unless you're unlucky enough to come across some kid who needs a kill to prove himself to a gang he's looking to join, or you're incarcerated with some serious felons and you're the wrong colour at the wrong time (or you give toothy head).

Not exactly. That attack can be stopped or survived. Just not with that guy's reaction or lack of skills. If you can grab that wrist, you can stop the attack. If you ever fall down while being stabbed at, you must learn to use your ball-step of your foot and kick the inside part of the person's elbow, and turn your hips quickly, and reach for his wrist. Any BJJ guys in here above a white belt may find this tactic very familiar with the various escapes that their teacher teaches them. It comes from JJ ground defense against weapons. Silat and FMA borrowed from this as well.

Once you grab the wrist, turn it into a wrist press. He will drop the knife, then grab it yourself, or alternatively if you think it is safe, go for an arm break, choke, etc. Keep in mind if you took a hit or two, that may be a bad idea, and going for the knife would be the smarter play if you think you can manage to use it well against him. If taking his knife makes him run off, great. If not, you will need to stay in the fight and finish it. You cannot assume he does not have the skills to disarm you too, which might make using JuJitsu or BJJ to end it, better in that case.

I do agree with you on assassinations in general. That is something truly difficult for any human being on the planet to survive or stop. Some luck is required in most cases. The nature of a hit is that a professional is usually trained to some degree and or has experience killing others. They usually observe you waiting for a good moment to strike. They use anything they can, social engineering, technology, transportation, weapons, just to get you. Very daunting to deal with. Prison attacks usually have people turning a blind eye or helping to set the guy up to get stabbed while the guards are not able to stop or assist. It's also political as you hinted at and in places like South America, entire groups help with the killings.

Also, like you said, the best defense against mess like this, is to stay out of places like this to begin with. Like staying out of prison. No amount of training is ever enough to deal with situations like this.

Quote: Anyone pretending to be a "regular guy" in a dojo, but using a coat or a jacket, like trained knife fighters know how to use (like Filipinos do), why would you fall on your ass right away and fail your arms around like a little bitch?

Whats this bit about using a coat/jacket against a knife?

I've heard this before back in Vietnam from some kids who run with gang members, but how could this work? Trying to wrap his arm with your coat or trying to throw it at him to disorient him?

Can you elaborate? I know that you can use a belt against knifes, thats what most Viet gang members do since it hits hard and has longer range, but a coat?

(11-15-2016 09:55 AM)H1N1 Wrote: ^ This is an assassination. If you find yourself 5ft from a guy with a knife intent on killing you, and you're unarmed, you're a dead man regardless of who you are and how badass you may otherwise be. That's the unpalatable truth of the fragility of the human body. This is why so much of self defense focuses on conflict avoidance. This situation is unsurvivable.

The good thing is that these situations do not happen randomly for the most part, unless you're unlucky enough to come across some kid who needs a kill to prove himself to a gang he's looking to join, or you're incarcerated with some serious felons and you're the wrong colour at the wrong time (or you give toothy head).

Not exactly. That attack can be stopped or survived. Just not with that guy's reaction or lack of skills. If you can grab that wrist, you can stop the attack. If you ever fall down while being stabbed at, you must learn to use your ball-step of your foot and kick the inside part of the person's elbow, and turn your hips quickly, and reach for his wrist. Any BJJ guys in here above a white belt may find this tactic very familiar with the various escapes that their teacher teaches them. It comes from JJ ground defense against weapons. Silat and FMA borrowed from this as well.

Once you grab the wrist, turn it into a wrist press. He will drop the knife, then grab it yourself, or alternatively if you think it is safe, go for an arm break, choke, etc. Keep in mind if you took a hit or two, that may be a bad idea, and going for the knife would be the smarter play if you think you can manage to use it well against him. If taking his knife makes him run off, great. If not, you will need to stay in the fight and finish it. You cannot assume he does not have the skills to disarm you too, which might make using JuJitsu or BJJ to end it, better in that case.

I do agree with you on assassinations in general. That is something truly difficult for any human being on the planet to survive or stop. Some luck is required in most cases. The nature of a hit is that a professional is usually trained to some degree and or has experience killing others. They usually observe you waiting for a good moment to strike. They use anything they can, social engineering, technology, transportation, weapons, just to get you. Very daunting to deal with. Prison attacks usually have people turning a blind eye or helping to set the guy up to get stabbed while the guards are not able to stop or assist. It's also political as you hinted at and in places like South America, entire groups help with the killings.

Also, like you said, the best defense against mess like this, is to stay out of places like this to begin with. Like staying out of prison. No amount of training is ever enough to deal with situations like this.

Agreed for the most part on survivability. That said, what prompts me to call it 'unsurvivable' is that, like you say, you're going to take a couple of hits, and from that distance, the first one or two are likely to find torso rather than forearm. Consequently, for a knife attack from this distance (longer distances with more warning are a different proposition), even a highly skilled combatant would first have to rely on luck, that the knife did not puncture a lung or the heart, or sever an artery - all of which in my opinion are immediate fight enders, in the sense that you are unlikely to apply a technique and enough force before the debilitating effects of those injuries become insurmountable (heart particularly, obviously).

If you get lucky, and you only take the blade in the guts, or it misses organs entirely, or deflects off a rib, etc etc then you've got a decent chance if you can fight. I do think a decently sized and determined guy with some skills who has the drop on you from 5 feet is almost certain to kill even highly trained unarmed combatants.

Quote: Anyone pretending to be a "regular guy" in a dojo, but using a coat or a jacket, like trained knife fighters know how to use (like Filipinos do), why would you fall on your ass right away and fail your arms around like a little bitch?

Whats this bit about using a coat/jacket against a knife?

I've heard this before back in Vietnam from some kids who run with gang members, but how could this work? Trying to wrap his arm with your coat or trying to throw it at him to disorient him?

Can you elaborate? I know that you can use a belt against knifes, that's what most Viet gang members do since it hits hard and has longer range, but a coat?

Coats/jackets have multiple uses against knives.

Light Armor:

1. Well made high quality leather jackets are cut resistant against most knives. Filipino street dudes would wear them on the streets to give them a chance to get their own knife out to counter attack.

2. The leather jacket could help them to not get their forearms and wrists slit open, by being covered with the sleeves.

Remember dudes there have karambit knives. Those are better for slicing tendons and necks.

Offensively:

1. You can use a coat/jacket/shirt and twist it up while an opponent is circling you, so that you can use it (like a bullfighter) to wrap up his attacking hand, tie up his hand, and neutralize the immediate threat. Your back will be exposed most of the time, but hey, take your chances with that and spin into a strike or kick.

2. You can use the garment opened up so that if he stabs through into the garment, you can quickly twist/wrap up, and yank-pull the knife out his hand. (pro tip: push kick his knee while he lunges out to stab you, while you use this garment) (Always followup with a punch to the face)

3. Throw it into the opponent's face the second he lunges, then kick him in the abdomen or knee, and followup with disarm + strikes, like a headbutt. In fact headbutts are excellent in a knife situation, especially if they get too close to you. Make sure it is hard enough to make them flinch, and hit the nose area.

If you have TKD skills or that is your martial art of choice, Snap Kicks to the chin will be your bread and butter and most of the time, that is a nearly a 100% KO if it hits flush. Most black belt level TKD people can usually drop 2 of these in 1.5 seconds. Some would try this kick on the hand with the knife. I don't recommend that because if you miss, you are fucked. The timing is too risky in my opinion. Head tracking is much easier, even for Muay Thai/Western Kickboxers.

4. If the garment is wet you can use it as a long distance slap to disorientate the attacker for a split second to give you a chance to either drop him with a certain strike or get a better angle on disarming the knife.

5. If you manage to knock the guy down, you could hogtie his ankles with the garment. If he tries to swing the knife at you from the ground, jump up and stomp his arm or face if you think you can do it without risk. If not, run off.

6. You can use the garment to help you run away! If you have the room and the gas in your tank, you can run instead of following up with more strikes or a disarm. Don't bother if you think that guy has more speed and cardio than you. Better to take him out. If you notice fences and obstacles you know you could leap, take those. It's harder for a guy with a knife to leap a fence than you with empty hands.

EDIT: It's worth noting that making mistakes with the garment can sometimes be salvaged by using your feet and legs to regain distance and position. I would have to make a video to go into deeper detail, but some of you will understand what I mean by that.

Makes much more sense now why mafia worldwide and gangster use leather jackets. Thanks Kai you are a real pro!

While I'm at it I might better ask you what you think of belt as a self-defense weapon? In Viet gang culture it is used to deadly effect for concealed carry where you cant take a knife/gun. Thick linen belt with heavy buckle, and they would sharpen the buckle so that it cut and rake at the same time.

I've always thought it to be a good weapon due to the range and damage it could inflict, but also of the versatility: you can carry it everywhere, its always on you (though not easy to quick draw)

(11-15-2016 05:13 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote: Makes much more sense now why mafia worldwide and gangster use leather jackets. Thanks Kai you are a real pro!

While I'm at it I might better ask you what you think of belt as a self-defense weapon? In Viet gang culture it is used to deadly effect for concealed carry where you cant take a knife/gun. Thick linen belt with heavy buckle, and they would sharpen the buckle so that it cut and rake at the same time.

I've always thought it to be a good weapon due to the range and damage it could inflict, but also of the versatility: you can carry it everywhere, its always on you (though not easy to quick draw)

Something like this:

Belt fighting might not be a smart play. Guys with high pain tolerances, large body weights, may shrug off a smack from that. Making it sharp may get you in just as much trouble as a knife. You might as well carry one.

Try something like this. You can use every move in the book a karambit could use with a talon knife in your belt.

or

something like this.

Better yet, do what the Korean gangsters do. Get one of these with a little pouch to keep it in.

One smack across the face with this, and his buddies will back the fuck off.

Great post!!!!
Knife defense is so important.
I've been attacked twice with knives in my life, both after learning martial arts.
Here are my two cents...

1st time i got attacked was at house party in university. Some drunk dude i never met saw me talking to his gf/ex gf and he followed to the basement into the bathroom and he had a kitchen knife in his hand. I was cornered in the bathroom. When he came forward i kicked him in the balls and grabbed the knife hand/wrist with both hands (I turned into him so my back was up against his chest, this position makes it much harder for him to stab me) Smashed his hand against the wall till he dropped it. I tripped him and broke his ankle, knee and jaw. No point in stabbing him with the knife. I just left the party.

2nd time I was walking home at night and some guys are coming my direction but across the street. As we get closer they start calling out to me. Then they cross the street and are about 20 feet from me and i see what i think is a knife. I just turn around a run the other direction and don't look back for 3 or 4 blocks. When i do turn around they had already given up chasing me and i clearly see the knife in the hand of the guy talking the loudest. Even with all my training being out numbered, at night and the have weapons fighting them would've been an incredibility stupid choice.

The police officer disarm was brilliant. With regards to keep themselves and the bystanders safe, securing the knife and then subduing the person is the correct priority. I winced when i saw what they did to his arm. It's absolutely broken, it will need pins.

@TravelerKai I don't think the officer used anything special when she grabbed the wrist. To me it looks like a two handed grab just above the wrist to get control of the hand. I think that's why she was able to pull the arm so fast and cause the knife to go flying out of guy's hand and bounce off the ground. Once that happened that when she tried to apply some kind of wrist lock to get his hand behind his back.
We used to teach our white belts this type of grab to gain control of the knife if someone was able to get up close and you weren't able to strike them or don't have the room to move around.

The "prison assassination" video is painful to watch. If you had your jacket/hoodie/coat off and some dude rushed you i would hope that throwing your jacket on the attackers face/head and counter attacking might work. Or throwing the jacket on the knife hand as measure to take the lethality of the knife away for a few moments giving you an opening to fight back or run.

The compliance video is so sad.
My first instinct was to tell the guy to run away.
He had plenty of time.
When you see a car drive up slow and a guy hops out, just fucking run away. The knife is visible on the camera so the guy should've been able to see it...
By the body language of the victim I'm guessing he might have been drunk or at least had a buzz.. His reaction time to being stabbed and just the whole situation says to me he's drunk/buzzed. It also makes sense from a predator stand point. Those guys in the car were probably driving around at night looking for drunk people to rob.
As a general rule never let anyone you don't know approach you that way. The attackers body language was very direct. He was looking for trouble.
If running wasn't a option a kick to the balls works very well if you can't kick the the face. Or if the attack is close to you a knee to the balls is an option as well.

The belt fighting was kinda funny, but TravelerKai is right about if a guy has a high pain tolerance or you suck at using a belt as a weapon and your strikes don't do anything or worse you end up hitting yourself in the process.

Great points Kinjutsu! I also had a knife situation, but I cannot discuss it without doxxing myself. Let's just say it was a situation with a woman gone wrong and I could not hurt her in the process. Makes disarming extremely hard and I learned alot from that. I'm glad you made it out of that situation alive, although you probably should have called the police. Canada is strange though, I wouldn't have been surprised if they put you in jail instead for not running away first. My situation made me a better instructor as well in alot of ways, which was good timing when I started training guys that were doing tours in Iraq at the time.

Yeah that guy that got stabbed standing there, could have also been because he knew those guys or owed them money or something. Like running away would not have worked because they would come to his mother's house or something.

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Nice purchase. The guys in Europe that cannot have a gun should really look into buying something like this. In the US, these are just good for jogging to keep stupid dogs off you. May not stop a pit bull though, but that is what the BJJ/JJ/Judo is for. (yes you can choke a dog to death easily with JJ based techniques). Even better is a concealed carry handgun.

Some FMA lessons + the batons is even better. Anyone that can legit stick fight with even one of these would actually have an sizable advantage over a person with a knife. I'm not kidding.

(11-17-2016 05:32 PM)TravelerKai Wrote: Nice purchase. The guys in Europe that cannot have a gun should really look into buying something like this. In the US, these are just good for jogging to keep stupid dogs off you. May not stop a pit bull though, but that is what the BJJ/JJ/Judo is for. (yes you can choke a dog to death easily with JJ based techniques). Even better is a concealed carry handgun.

Some FMA lessons + the batons is even better. Anyone that can legit stick fight with even one of these would actually have an sizable advantage over a person with a knife. I'm not kidding.

Another thing guys can go is buy some cheese, or fruit, and purchase a cheap fruit knife to carry when you travel. If you're stopped somewhere and people see fruit, or cheese and a small knife it raises no eyebrows.

(11-17-2016 05:32 PM)TravelerKai Wrote: Nice purchase. The guys in Europe that cannot have a gun should really look into buying something like this. In the US, these are just good for jogging to keep stupid dogs off you. May not stop a pit bull though, but that is what the BJJ/JJ/Judo is for. (yes you can choke a dog to death easily with JJ based techniques). Even better is a concealed carry handgun.

Some FMA lessons + the batons is even better. Anyone that can legit stick fight with even one of these would actually have an sizable advantage over a person with a knife. I'm not kidding.

I think what's being said here is that anyone can take a shot at placing their forearm around a dog's neck (even animals instinctively know to attack the throat) and pressing until rupturing the trachea. The stronger, younger and taller you are, the greater your chances of keeping the wiggling animal in place and injuring it with brute force. Everyone has zero experience in doing it and four legged animals move and are built completely differently from humans. All choke holds targeting humans are based on the idea of restraining the torso and/or limb(s) of the victim simultaneously to prevent him from escaping. Those who have tried to wash a cat can attest to the difficulty of restraining an animal hundreds of millions of years removed from human evolution.

I have posted this elsewhere on here. The most effective way to kill a large dog that attacks you is to give it your weak-hand forearm, lift it up so that the animal's head is level with your chest, place your strong arm around the back of the animal's neck and pull it in hard to your body, then lever back with the arm that is in the animal's mouth. This requires surprisingly little force to carry out, and will snap the dog's neck.

(11-19-2016 08:25 AM)H1N1 Wrote: I have posted this elsewhere on here. The most effective way to kill a large dog that attacks you is to give it your weak-hand forearm, lift it up so that the animal's head is level with your chest, place your strong arm around the back of the animal's neck and pull it in hard to your body, then lever back with the arm that is in the animal's mouth. This requires surprisingly little force to carry out, and will snap the dog's neck.

You can actually easily Rear-Naked Choke a dog to death without getting bitten at all. Dogs are still mammals like us. They have two carotid arteries in their neck.

A RNC does two things: First it cuts off blood supply to the brain (oxygen as well), and secondly, it drastically lessons airflow to the lungs by cutting off the air supply to the windpipe by closing it with the inside part of your elbow.

On top of all of that, you can also put the dog (if it is big enough like 50+ lbs) in a leg triangle across their body preventing them from even scratching you, and making escape 100% impossible!

The dog will flail around for maybe 3-6 seconds, after that it is night-night time. If you let go they will quickly regain consciousness. Hold it past 8 seconds, and they will go from brain dead to dog dead quickly.

BJJ is extremely powerful against dogs, even pit bulls. Of all the martial arts I have studied, I think BJJ is the strongest against dogs, hands down. You could even Triangle Leg Choke a dog, but I don't recommend that for the reason that their teeth are too close to your dick. Hard to trust that sometimes.

And before anyone asks, yes I have tested this on military police caliber German Shepherds that were given command to bite.

Would any of this work on a Mountain Lion, a small Black Bear, a wild Wolf, or any other similar animals? Who knows and depends upon the man. The prerequisite is that you would be strong enough to apply the choke, be quick enough to get their back, and mentally resilient enough to keep going even if clawed a little bit. The higher your body weight, the easier, goes without saying.

Russian Systema guys tend to use knives against dog attacks and other kinds of attacks aimed at disabling the attack dog. I haven't seen it personally yet, but I was told by someone I knew that they also use the same rear naked choke on them as well. They also do that neck break you describe above as well.

Putting on bite sleeves and practicing with a personal protection/police dog is something anyone interested in dog defense, should do at least once. Once you figure out their speed, power, and resistance, it's too easy to apply it again on even other dogs.

EDIT: In general you will want to learn how to defend without getting bitten, if possible. Some police dogs have ultra hard bite force numbers and come from select bloodlines that have this. These genes came from particular West German GSDs, that spread to the rest of Western Europe. Several Belgium Malinois have terrifying bite power as well. Plenty breeders have these in their stocks. Their bites are so hard, it can mentally shut you down, causing you to forget for a few moments that you could do something about it. It's best to be a bullfighter for a second, and Ole! him and get his back instead. That isn't too hard IMO, although they are fast, they are not fuggin Greyhound fast.

Will your average Neighborhood Piece of Shit come from any of these bloodlines? Not likely at all, those types have good temperament and don't bite without commands, but Pit Bulls in particular and that wild boar hunting version of them (i forgot the name), are similar if not harder in bite force. Pit Bulls also, have the same advantages Bulldogs have, and getting your arm free from their angled jaws, may be alot harder than you think it should be. They will take their pound of flesh off your arm. To make matters worse, their bones and muscles are even denser, which could make a neck break harder to execute. Me personally, I think Pit Bulls should require the owner take classes on them and get a license. They are just not normal dogs.

Man, I'd love to train with you someday, TK - I'd learn a lot. I learned the neck break thing (and many other eye opening things about violence) from a guy I used to apprentice for when I was in my teens after I saw him do it to a rottweiler that went for him. Skinny guy, in his early 70s then, snapped this thing's neck like it was a twig. He had quite a background.

(11-19-2016 04:05 PM)TravelerKai Wrote: Would any of this work on a Mountain Lion, a small Black Bear, a wild Wolf, or any other similar animals? Who knows and depends upon the man. The prerequisite is that you would be strong enough to apply the choke, be quick enough to get their back, and mentally resilient enough to keep going even if clawed a little bit. The higher your body weight, the easier, goes without saying.

What's the best move to defend against a mountain lion? I usually have a buck knife on me when hiking, but mountain lions are very common in Colorado.

I'm betting most guys are not fast enough to get to their back and avoid the claws. They can sneak up and pounce on you before you even know what hit you.

(11-19-2016 04:05 PM)TravelerKai Wrote: Would any of this work on a Mountain Lion, a small Black Bear, a wild Wolf, or any other similar animals? Who knows and depends upon the man. The prerequisite is that you would be strong enough to apply the choke, be quick enough to get their back, and mentally resilient enough to keep going even if clawed a little bit. The higher your body weight, the easier, goes without saying.

What's the best move to defend against a mountain lion? I usually have a buck knife on me when hiking, but mountain lions are very common in Colorado.

I'm betting most guys are not fast enough to get to their back and avoid the claws. They can sneak up and pounce on you before you even know what hit you.

No kidding!! We have them around here as well. Not as many as CO or like the old days, but even 1 or 2 in the area makes you alert about it.

You are right about one thing, they almost never attack from the front, unless something is wrong or you cornered it on accident. Cubs are another issue. They usually climb up if a large dog is around and I have heard that they do that sometimes if humans are around.

If they are starving, all bets are off.

Since they attack others by the nape of the neck (they bite the back of your neck), the moment you feel a big hit, tuck and roll (like a granby roll), like in BJJ or wrestling. Don't turn around and say, "gee what was that?!" Just insta roll forward like an instinct (tuck your chin down and shoot down for your feet, and cover your neck with your hands), so that maybe his teeth do not go into your neck and sever your carotid arteries.

That is what they are aiming for. Once they pierce that, they move around to the front, on top of their prey, and bite the windpipe to suffocate the victim.

Bear spray (super strong pepper spray) I heard is good, but those fuckers are way faster than bears. If he is on top of you, the spray will get in your eyes too. Might have no choice but to spray you both.

A .44 Magnum revolver. A .357 magnum works fine as well. (A 40 or a 9mm is okay too, because they are not bears). If you are in black bear country, you probably should have a solid handgun in general. We don't have bears down here, but up where you guys live, you do and the cougars live in the same areas. That's two threats. We have wild hogs and cougars.

Whatever you do, don't run from a mountain lion. It makes it 100% worse. If you see one before it attacks, back away facing it, don't expose your back to one.

For the same reason they get excited if you are riding a trail/mountain bike and will chase you down from behind. They think you are prey on a bike. In that case, have your pistol ready. I know of bikers up in Montana areas that ride with those little Taurus looking revolvers on their ankles.

Other tricks are to wear a tall/large backpack that covers your neck and back. They will think you are too tall or big to bite and will leave you alone.

I think noisemakers are useless for them. They knew you were there long before you saw them or came into the area.

As for claims that cougars will back off if you put up any resistance, I doubt that. Plenty people have been maimed badly fighting off cougars. No mammal thinks correctly when starving to death. If you cannot have a gun, you better practice drawing that knife out of it's sheath while under duress.

EDIT: As for getting their backs, yeah that isn't a matter or quickness. You would have to yank-spin them around into a choke hold, like you would do to a person in BJJ. You will get scratched so there is no avoiding that. I would use that as a last resort. They only weigh 150 pounds max (less if starving). If you are 200+ and are well trained, you should be strong enough to pull it off, but it's going to take some balls and counter-intuitive thinking. If I could rag doll any person that weighs 150 pounds, the cougar definitely won't scare me if I manage to avoid getting bitten on the neck. A 200+ pound protection trained Bull Mastiff is actually worse in some ways.