1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

If I'm proved wrong thats cool, hey I used to believe God would throw the majority of His creation into a lake of fire for an eternity of torture so....

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not a teacher. But I think it's good you read all views and then draw your own conclusion.Search for "Fallen Angel" <=== with the ""For user enter willieH <===I think he's the one that's strongest opposed to the fallen angel stuff.There is a long thread about it but I can't find it right now.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

I had always been told that Satan wanted to steal as many souls into hell for eternity as possible.

What you have "always been told", ...is a LIE, Natcat.

FIRST -- "Eternity" is not a state which supports a "duration". Time is a progressive measurable entity capable of "duration". Eternity just ...IS... unmeasureable, without beginning or end, and therefore, without a "duration".

SECOND -- in order for anything to be "ETERNAL" (Hell for instance), the attachment of BEFORE, NOW and AFTER are thereby noted. So if someone were to be in HELL for ETERNITY -- then they WERE in Hell, ...ARE in Hell, and ALWAYS WILL BE in Hell...

ETERNITY is NOT "from now---on"! We as time-bound entities, cannot comprehend something [ETERNITY] that is not only without END but also WITHOUT BEGINNING! EVER in the PRESENT tense.

But seeing as there isn't an eternal hell, I guess his mission is to keep us dead in our sin(?). but

Does satan know about UR?Will he be saved? (Coll 1:15- comes to mind.)If the LoF is now, like some people believe, when will Satan be saved?

"satan" is not a being and therefore "knows" nothing, and has no need to be "saved"... Only sentient entities which can partake of EVIL are in need of Salvation.

"satan" [adversity, and adversary to good] is a principality which has no more sentience (conscious intelligence), than does GOOD... is GOOD a sentient "being" that God created? Of course it is not...

GOOD is that which defines what is RIGHT... and is found in the OBSERVANCE of, and OBEDIENCE to -- the COMMAND and WORD of GOD ---

"satan" [the opposition to GOOD] is that which defines what is WRONG... and is found in the INOBSERVANCE of, and DISOBEDIENCE to -- the COMMAND and WORD of GOD.

Christianity empowers this MYTH, with the traits of GOD... everywhere at once... tempting everyone simultaneously... knowing what each individuals weaknesses are and exploiting them, ...what a lot of PHONY garbage.

cre8ed2worship

"satan" [adversity, and adversary to good] is a principality which has no more sentience (conscious intelligence), than does GOOD... is GOOD a sentient "being" that God created? Of course it is not...

GOOD is that which defines what is RIGHT... and is found in the OBSERVANCE of, and OBEDIENCE to -- the COMMAND and WORD of GOD ---

"satan" [the opposition to GOOD] is that which defines what is WRONG... and is found in the INOBSERVANCE of, and DISOBEDIENCE to -- the COMMAND and WORD of GOD.

Christianity empowers this MYTH, with the traits of GOD... everywhere at once... tempting everyone simultaneously... knowing what each individuals weaknesses are and exploiting them, ...what a lot of PHONY garbage. [/quote]

Amen brother for that nugget of truth!

I was told for years in the institutions of man that it was wrong to study about the devil and demons and when I began my deeper walk I felt it was time to find out the truth.

Try studying the words Satan/devil/demon/evil spirit in the original; the truth really does set you free!!

But it will leave you wondering where in the world churchianity came up with their point of view.

"satan" [adversity, and adversary to good] is a principality which has no more sentience (conscious intelligence), than does GOOD... is GOOD a sentient "being" that God created? Of course it is not...

GOOD is that which defines what is RIGHT... and is found in the OBSERVANCE of, and OBEDIENCE to -- the COMMAND and WORD of GOD ---

"satan" [the opposition to GOOD] is that which defines what is WRONG... and is found in the INOBSERVANCE of, and DISOBEDIENCE to -- the COMMAND and WORD of GOD.

Christianity empowers this MYTH, with the traits of GOD... everywhere at once... tempting everyone simultaneously... knowing what each individuals weaknesses are and exploiting them, ...what a lot of PHONY garbage.

Amen brother for that nugget of truth!

I was told for years in the institutions of man that it was wrong to study about the devil and demons and when I began my deeper walk I felt it was time to find out the truth.

Try studying the words Satan/devil/demon/evil spirit in the original; the truth really does set you free!!

But it will leave you wondering where in the world churchianity came up with their point of view.

I spent almost 25yrs in the system... and questioned many pastors and leaders about their doctrinal statements... the more I questioned, the farther I moved away from them, for they him'd & haw'd, and never really answered me!

It is quite amazing that aside from proclaiming the NAME of JESUS, that their teachings are mostly perverted and in the end promote FEAR and VENGENCE instead of PEACE and LOVE...

Glad you have joined us and look forward to your comments and participation!

natcat86

I read some of your posts on Evidence for God in science forum, was part of the journey that lead me to UR so good to see you here too!!!

A belief in Satan as a being is very ingrained for me. Just like it has taken me a long time to get over the idea that Jesus has saved us from hell, this one might take me a while to get my head round!

When Jesus was casting out demons and they were speaking to them, they left the body of the man and went into the Pigs, that seems like they were beings to me?? Wht was Tartarus for if not for demonic beings?

I dont really agree or disagree with anyone on this matter as I haven't really made my mind up based on the facts yet, so thanks for sharing!

A belief in Satan as a being is very ingrained for me. Just like it has taken me a long time to get over the idea that Jesus has saved us from hell, this one might take me a while to get my head round!

It's okay NC... we are all on a journey of learning... I always try to suggest to others, to investigate anything that anyone says! (including me)... Praying for God's leading to bless and permeate your search...

When Jesus was casting out demons and they were speaking to them, they left the body of the man and went into the Pigs, that seems like they were beings to me?? Wht was Tartarus for if not for demonic beings?

FIRST -- Tartarus is the Greek word meaning --- the DEEPEST region of HADES... which is reserved for "angels" (messengers) which bear other than the TRUTH...

The Greek word translated "angels" in the ONLY verse in the Bible, which uses the word TARTARUS -- 2 Pet 2:4 -- is AGGELOS #G32 -- which means -- angel, pastor, messenger --

SECOND -- This word [aggelos] is not JUST the definition of beings which are of the Heavenly realm. The word "angel" concerning the Heavenly realm defines residents OF IT. Nowhere in Scripture (that I have found), are ANGELS ever considered "DEMONS"... Nor have I found any Scripture which notes that ANY of the ANGELS of Heaven, ever became "DEMONS". (btw "demon" is not a Biblical term)

I'll try to explain to you how I presently see this:

The whole concept of "devils" and "demons" is an invention of the APOSTATE church and gospel... which teaches other than the TRUTH.

There is only ONE DEITY -- that being -- YHVH, and His CHILDREN which emerge FROM Him, are named BY HIM as "gods" -- Psalm 82:6 -- As I noted, there is only ONE GOD... however, those who are His OFFSPRING are of the same essence as Himself...

That we are descendent of the ALMIGHTY (His "offspring") means that there is power in our experience which has NO LIMIT. This is what FAITH is... If one BELIEVES in DEMONS, then one is INVESTING POWER in that thinking and manifestations (such as "demons") can arise from that misused "power"...

IOW -- men "create" the concept of "satan" and "devils" as sentient beings, which were once "angelic", of God's Holy ANGELS... which is a LIE. Giving these non-existent "beings" -- life -- within their FAITH... FAITH is a powerful thing.

It is a scientific fact that "believing" brings things into existence... For instance, Psychosomatic symptoms... ONE can "believe" him/herself sick, and the symptoms of that sickness become reality.

If one is truly a BELIEVER in GOD, one thereby places FAITH IN HIM, that can AFFECT (from the Supernatural Heavenly realm), the NATURAL realm in which we live... For the prayer of FAITH, calls upon the POWER within it, given by GOD... Misuse of this power occurs CONTINUALLY.

Christianity likes to point its finger at the Secular community or other religions, and think that "satanic" manifestations are coming against them because these lack FAITH, ...Failing to recognize that the source of these "manifestations" whether in or out of the "church" realm, is coming from within humans themselves! -- It is the employment of MISPLACED FAITH, which brings these "manifestations" into ANY given reality. (in church or outside it)

One last thing about the ANGELS of God, sis...

When CHRIST returns, it is noted that He shall be accompanied by ALL the HOLY ANGELS (not ONE of them is missing! For ALL means ALL) -- Matt 25:31

in strongs they give discriptive definitions and satan here is Strong's G4567 - Satanas used 36 times in the new testament from root word Of Aramaic origin corresponding to Σατάν (G4566) (with the definite affix) used once in 2Cr 12:7messenger of satan to buffet Paul .. both have the same descriptive definitions for the name satan .

1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to

a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ

1) he incites apostasy from God and to sin

2) circumventing men by his wiles

3) the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control

4) by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases

5) by God's assistance he is overcome

6) on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment

b) a Satan-like man

Now I was thrilled when reading this the other day, wow that is awesome !! I personally love using the scriptures they do the testifying to me and we can witness to them , testify to them as being true and very helpful when seeking answers from the Lord and His Holy Spirit

for me this whole gathered verses tell us that when Jesus come to heal us , it is from satans /adversity "hold and control on any mans mind / heart " freeing him/ her to SERVE THE LORD ..

We know Paul spoke of having the law working in his new mind of Christ in Romans 7 and how the law of sin was still working in his members the rest of his mortal body /earth that helps us to see that when satan is cast out of heaven / heaven opened with the new mind of Christ , how Paul goes on to explain in Romans 8 how death in his body was still working under the law of sin and how satan" still accuses " us through this law of sin in the rest of his members , making the body as good as DEAD working though faith like Abrahams children ... Paul shows us the effects in his personal struggles

and Here in Mark 3 we can see How Jesus comes and opens the mind freeing us the start of salvation in every one who believes Jesus is the Christ by the Fathers gift of great grace .. Jesus being within us our new minds we can now overcome sin and death because satan has an end

Mar 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but has an end.

had to look up END and since the question is Does Satan believe know about UR? and this goes with the context of the started thread

END telos Strong's G5056 - telos From a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

1) end

a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)

b) the end

1) the last in any succession or series

2) eternal

c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue

d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods) Mar 3:1 Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand.

Mar 3:2 And they watched him, to see whether he would heal him on the sabbath, so that they might accuse him.

Mar 3:3 And he said to the man who had the withered hand, "Come here."

Mar 3:4 And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent.

Mar 3:5 And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored.

Mar 3:6 The Pharisees went out, and immediately held counsel with the Hero'di-ans against him, how to destroy him.

Mar 3:7 Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the sea, and a great multitude from Galilee followed; also from Judea

Mar 3:8 and Jerusalem and Idume'a and from beyond the Jordan and from about Tyre and Sidon a great multitude, hearing all that he did, came to him.

remember it is the Fathers drawing them by this gift of grace to His Son Jesus Christ

Mar 3:9 And he told his disciples to have a boat ready for him because of the crowd, lest they should crush him;

Mar 3:10 for he had healed many, so that all who had diseases pressed upon him to touch him.

Mar 3:11 And whenever the unclean spirits beheld him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God."

Mar 3:12 And he strictly ordered them not to make him known.

Mar 3:13 And he went up on the mountain, and called to him those whom he desired; and they came to him.

Mar 3:14 And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach notice it was the preaching that would clean the unclean spirits in mankind and the authority/ grace of God that would remove them out of their minds / hearts

Mar 3:15 and have authority to cast out demons:

Mar 3:16 Simon whom he surnamed Peter;

Mar 3:17 James the son of Zeb'edee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Bo-aner'ges, that is, sons of thunder;

Mar 3:18 Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean,

Mar 3:19 and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. Then he went home;

Mar 3:20 and the crowd came together again, so that they could not even eat.

Mar 3:21 And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, "He is beside himself."

Mar 3:22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Be-el'zebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons."

suspicious minds always, always call the things of God from the devil , you ever notice that kind of fear working in so many religious types ?

Mar 3:23 And he called them to him, and said to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan?

Mar 3:24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

NOW this is awesome , think about this satan was in the position to STAND by those opposing the Word of God / Jesus Christ

but now they stand in the WORD OF GOD and satans end has come they now have a clean mind/ heart conscience .....

to stand is Strong's G2476 - histēmi A prolonged form of a primary stao {stah'-o} (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses)

1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set

a) to bid to stand by, [set up]

1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;

2) to place

b) to make firm, fix establish

1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place

2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety

3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand

a) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything

c) to set or place in a balance1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)

Mar 3:25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.

Mar 3:26 And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.

woo hooo!!!! no more standing in the Holy Place Gods throne within your heart

Mar 3:27 But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man; then indeed he may plunder his house.

Mar 3:28 "Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; Mar 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--

Mar 3:30 for they had said, "He has an unclean spirit."

its the religious that doubts Gods authority , that fearful and unbelieving

We all meet death, Lee... And all "messages" from GOD will not be percieved as GOOD, for instance, ...the "FLOOD message" to Noah... However, it is OUR PERCEPTION of the message that notes it either GOOD or BAD...

DEATH is a precious thing to GOD, even though we do not look forward to it, HE DOES -- Psalm 116:15 -- I am sure in the case of Moses, after such a great life of service, that GOD held the death of Moses in high esteem... The "angel" of death is delivering TRUTH... for when a communication comes from GOD it always bears TRUTH...

The BIG difference is that MEN percieve that there are UNHOLY ANGELS which fell from HOLINESS... Which is where tradition "gets off the track" and makes of NONE EFFECT, the WORDS of God (in their circumstance)... That which negatively affects the receiving of GOD's WORDS which are ALWAYSTRUTH... is the "tradition" of LIES -- Matt 15:6-9 -- Mark 7:7-13

The adversity in man is NATURAL and comes BEFORE the SPIRITUAL -- 1 Cor 15:46 -- MAN is that in which TRADITION lives, and IT [tradition that notes ADVERSITY to TRUTH/God] must DIE.

And IMO, I know that very few words have one meaning in the KJV and Angel is one of them...

You are welcome to disagree, but here is my about "ANGELS":

Well, I agree that the word ANGEL in the NT [AGGELOS] means messenger in either case, ...however -- the word ANGEL is applicable to both PHYSICAL men and SPIRITUAL beings (both able to be "messengers")...

In either case a message is delivered... but from which source does the message emerge? It is the ORIGIN of the "NEWS" that determines the nature of the message... MAN is by NATURE, in opposition [imperfect] to HOLINESS. Holiness signifies a PERFECT state... PURE and COMPLETE... something PURE or COMPLETE needs nothing ADDED or SUBTRACTED, for it is ALREADY in a PURE state which requires neither.

So any message or messenger which does not COMPLETELY emerge from GOD, it is therefore, defiled by its lack.

To note that there are UNHOLY [impure or incomplete] messengers which emerge from GOD, is an oxy-moron... "dark-light" -- "empty-fullness"...

Also the implication that there was a "REBELLION" to the authority of God, is also of the same origin -- which is LIES... for this means that POWER was enlisted to OBJECT to GOD, which did not originate FROM HIM...

The Scriptures plainly note that ALL POWER is of GOD -- Rom 13:1 -- as well as that a Kingdom DIVIDED against itself, shall not stand -- so if GOD was either,

(1) challenged by something which HE did not decide (rebellion) or, (2) decided (via His own plan) to DIVIDE His Kingdom (by creating HOLY ANGELS (which He KNEW and DECIDED), would became of themselves, "devils" bringing AGAINST HIM -- "UNHOLY messages")...

These must be seen as contradictions to HIS WORD:

Matt 12:25 -- ...EVERY KINGDOM DIVIDED ...against itself... is brought to desolation, and every city or house DIVIDED ...against itself... shall NOT STAND

Mark 3:24 -- and if a KINGDOM be DIVIDED ...against itself... that KINGDOM ...cannot stand.

I don't disagree with this... with the exception that "NEWS" received is a matter of PERCEPTION. If the NEWS comes from GOD it is GOOD NEWS which comes from a GOOD source... however... if the NEWS is born of TRADITION, it is BAD NEWS for its source is contaminated, coming from a BAD source.

This does not mean that NEWS which is percieved as BAD, ...is necessarily BAD of itself... the SOURCE which conveys it, is that which is "BAD"...

You and I might think the declaration of DEATH is "BAD"... for we cling to LIFE, as LIFE is GOOD... but in order for our LIFE to become COMPLETE and PURE, it must 1st DIE to ITSELF... and then LIVE for GOD...

So the "death" which, in our NATURAL and UNSPIRITUAL state we percieve as BAD, ...is actually for our GOOD.

Tradition shall DIE with ALL the rest [heaven and earth=mind and body of man] that CHRIST said would PASS AWAY -- Luke 21:33 -- but the NEWS in which GOOD was/is found in the COMMAND and WORD of YHVH God, shall NEVER PASS AWAY...

HartleyDamboiseII

If God's word is God breathed, then if a member of todays people try to live by the law of moses, then he is following a system of good news delivered to Israel for the times back then, trying to misplace the law for today, inwhich he is living in "death" as his only out come.

ok , this don't sound right, so what i will say is, Plain and simple

IF I stand in any Baptist Church the "messenger" at the pulpit, (minister) will be preaching a message of DEATH. Bad News....

this IS a messenger of Death....No matter how you want to think about it, it is...

If you can't raise the dead by the words you say, then your a messenger of death....

IF I stand in any Baptist Church the "messenger" at the pulpit, (minister) will be preaching a message of DEATH. Bad News....

this IS a messenger of Death....No matter how you want to think about it, it is...

If you can't raise the dead by the words you say, then your a messenger of death....

I agree... and spent 25yrs witnessing such "dead" sermons... which never set well with me... and actually DROVE me to the TRUTH!

However, it must be said that along with the message of LIFE, ...the WORD itself is a message conveying the necessity of DEATH... If DEATH were not necessary, and was UNREASONABLE, then it would not exist.

DEATH is a means which is used to expose LIFE --- showing LIFE for what it IS! ...as the Scripture notes that the seed must die and be inserted in the ground in order for LIFE to come forth...

HartleyDamboiseII

Evil and Good are byproducts of the tree it grows of, the other part of that tree in the garden is the tree of Life.

IF you come to the knowledge that we were planted in the earth, it (we ) did die, then the only Life is IN the reserrection of God's Only B Son,(forfillment of promises to all) His Anointed.

Once we understand that all death is done and over and that the spirit will be forever, you/I can live in rest now in this life, this flesh, this flesh of God that WE ARE ALL A PART OF, All are a part of God, and there is not death in HIM