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Wow, going downhill with no brakes. So Diane expresses her view and gets bombed with insults. The advocates of tolerance turned into fanatics. Let's promote equality, as long as you don 't disagree with me, is that how itt works? Everyone has a right to not like anyone else. And as long as one respects them and abide the law the way one feels he/she should be respected , that's fine. In this day and age, there is plenty of information and lietrature on the matters. If someone for any reason feels put off (to put it mildly) by homosexuality, who has the right to insult him? By the way, im totally cool with homosexuality. To discriminate people for their sexual orientation is obviously unacceptable. I believe people don t chose it whatever anyone says. I have a very close relative whose life was made miserable for being gay in the wrong environment, sop i kow what i am talking about. But i am not cool with people telling me what or what not to like. I am sick of people pusihing homosexuality (not pointing fingers towards this forum) down my throat to paraphrase Diane, because that is happening where i am, constantly. Funny that a gay friend of mine feels the same about it. Gays have been forced to live in some kind of ghetto for so long, and now that they can break out, a part of that community is trying to ghetto themselves again.

So if anyone wants to be gay, it's your business what you do in your bedroom. Just that if you decide that lifestyle isn't for you, you aren't stuck in it. You can go straight. No shame in going straight!

So, Diane, if it's not your business what another does in the bedroom, why even comment? It matters greatly to you. That's all too obvious. Don't try to coat your hatred, because it makes you appear more ignorant than you already are. You act as if you're offended that people jumped you for your opinion(s). You're entitled to believe whatever you want to believe... no one is going to deny you that... but when you open your mouth and put yourself out there, then you've just opened yourself up to every critic in the world. Your little "bummer" remark (which I'm sure you giggled at as you typed it), is disgusting and you absolutely COULD have resisted. Grow up. As you do, attempt to acquire a tolerance for others that doesn't state that someone else is wrong simply because they don't live their life the same way that you do.

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

Everyone has the right to insult and criticise everyone. And I can think of no better reason than because someone expressed horrible views. You can think and believe what you want, you can express what you want. That is free speech. But if you choose to express what you think and believe in a public forum, you are not allowed to use the defence of free speech to shield yourself from criticism or the consequences of saying what you said. No idea has any reason to be respected merely because it is somoene's opinion.

By the way Diane, there are many homosexuals who never have anal sex. They are still homosexuals. There are many heterosexuals who do have anal sex (as I said before, in raw numbers far more than there are homosexuals). This does not make them homosexuals. Why do some people find it so hard to separate sexuality from the sexual act?

Wow, going downhill with no brakes. So Diane expresses her view and gets bombed with insults. The advocates of tolerance turned into fanatics. Let's promote equality, as long as you don 't disagree with me, is that how itt works? Everyone has a right to not like anyone else. And as long as one respects them and abide the law the way one feels he/she should be respected , that's fine. In this day and age, there is plenty of information and lietrature on the matters. If someone for any reason feels put off (to put it mildly) by homosexuality, who has the right to insult him? By the way, im totally cool with homosexuality. To discriminate people for their sexual orientation is obviously unacceptable. I believe people don t chose it whatever anyone says. I have a very close relative whose life was made miserable for being gay in the wrong environment, sop i kow what i am talking about. But i am not cool with people telling me what or what not to like. I am sick of people pusihing homosexuality (not pointing fingers towards this forum) down my throat to paraphrase Diane, because that is happening where i am, constantly. Funny that a gay friend of mine feels the same about it. Gays have been forced to live in some kind of ghetto for so long, and now that they can break out, a part of that community is trying to ghetto themselves again.

If the internet had been invented in the 1940's or 1950's we might be having a discussion about "The piano and the Negro" arguing whether or not it was acceptable for blacks to force themselves down our throat by wanting to play music outside of segregated honky-tonk establishments or the odd jazz club, or gasp, expect to eat and drink in the same restaurants we do and travel in the same bus seats. Or we might be posting on a thread "The piano and the little woman" arguing whether it would ever be acceptable for a married woman to work outside of the home, or to keep composing or teaching after marriage or to post on internet fora without the permission of her husband.

Do we still think that freedom of speech should mean that it would be socially acceptable for us today to come on this forum and say that negros (or a common slur in its place) are unnatural or otherwise inferior and that you are just sick and tired of their uppity attitude of wanting to be visible and treated equally being forced down your throat? Or that in your opinion, Diane has no right to post here since she is a woman and therefore, without question, hopelessly lacking the kind of wisdom that only the man of the house can possess and therefore should submit herself to her husband's authority or only speak when spoken to?

Of course not, people would be all over them. However, these were common and socially accepted opinions and accepted free speech just a little over half a century ago in the United States. Now they come across as being bigoted and offensive and people who hold these opinions often have the good sense to keep them to themselves.

The point is that although the freedom of speech goes very far in the United States, including venturing into hate speech territory that is illegal in many countries with different histories and different views on dangers of hate speech, when one states his or her opinion one cannot then expect to stifle the free speech rights of those who react.

It amazes me to see how many people think that issues raised in this thread are simplistically black or white!

Oh no, not racism now?

That was not funny.

Yes it was! We don't have to knee-jerk at the word "racism". It can take a joke.

And, puns aside, also very true. We're talking as if there's a general rule - homosexuality is either innate or a preference. Isn't it more likely that there's a spectrum, and some people are mobile within it?

Why do some people find it so hard to separate sexuality from the sexual act?

Indeed - sexual activity isn't even required in order to think of oneself as homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, omnisexual, or whatever. It's about how one feels and perceives and identifies, and not only about what one actually does with other people. For example, I would guess that many, perhaps most, people have a pretty good idea of the nature of their sexuality before they start having any sex at all. And it is also clear that many, perhaps most, people are able to go through the motions of sex in ways that don't match their sexuality (which can be confusing to everyone involved).

Yikes! Some of you certainly have a lot of time on your hands. I just got back from being out of town and, well, this thread has certainly turned into a "bummer" thread! (pun intended. Sorry, ...I couldn't resist!)

Your silly pun is nothing more than an indication that you don't care for anything else but for pushing down our throat your views and opinions!

Diane is very convinced that HER way is right. Her arguments come straight from fundamentalist Christian pamphlets (did she, personally, know this reformed homosexual?). And, of course, she's welcome to express them. And we're welcome to mock them.

It is pretty funny when people to get all tangled up with "freedom of speech" stuff in a moderated forum. You do not have the freedom to say just anything you want here - read the rules.

And, in fact, you do not have that freedom in many other places, both virtual and real. For example, the famously liberal speech clause in the US constitution's 1st amendment would seem to allow absolutely anything to be said any time and any place within its jurisdiction, but in actual practice it doesn't work out that way. Not even close.

And then there is the curious idea that somebody can say whatever and that "free speech" somehow protects them from any consequences for having said it. Where does that come from? It's a pretty weird (and frankly, very childish) idea, IMO.

The fear is that if you can already tell if your baby is homosexual in the womb, that the next step will be that, in many places in the world, women will be offered abortions to avoid having a gay son.

That's an easy one. When the vile perversion is detected, immediately take out not just the foetus but both parents. It's their fault for having the defective genes in the first place. Kinder just to remove them from any danger of further breeding.

Wow, going downhill with no brakes. So Diane expresses her view and gets bombed with insults. The advocates of tolerance turned into fanatics. Let's promote equality, as long as you don 't disagree with me, is that how itt works?

You are confused. There's no equivalence between Diane's opinion and the lives of real people. Being gay isn't merely an opinion about things, you know.

If there was some gay person here making a knowingly offensive fuss about how totally gross straight sex was (you stick it there?!?!?) and they didn't want to even know about it, or, better yet, they didn't even want know that straights exist, THEN you'd have some degree of equivalency.

It is pretty funny when people to get all tangled up with "freedom of speech" stuff in a moderated forum. You do not have the freedom to say just anything you want here - read the rules.

Indeed. For those of who have been banned and banished by the powers that be for speaking uncomfortable truths this is as clear as day.

Originally Posted by wr

And then there is the curious idea that somebody can say whatever and that "free speech" somehow protects them from any consequences for having said it. Where does that come from? It's a pretty weird (and frankly, very childish) idea, IMO.

Do we still think that freedom of speech should mean that it would be socially acceptable for us today to come on this forum ...

You are right about freedom of speech, but where do you draw the line? In my opinion, way beyond the referred post. There are plenty of statements in it that can be denied through evidence that's available to anyone. That would make more sense to me than the answers she s been given. Anyway my point is that all you can ask for is for people to accept homosexuality or heterosexuality. To live with ti and respect it. But i think it's reasonable to consider that there are some people (many or few, that s not the point) who do not like the idea of any other orientation that is not theirs. People should nt be blamed for their thoughts. Notr while they re just that, thoughts.

Diane is very convinced that HER way is right. Her arguments come straight from fundamentalist Christian pamphlets (did she, personally, know this reformed homosexual?). And, of course, she's welcome to express them. And we're welcome to mock them.

Right and the more uninformed the arguments, the easier to do so.That's just to remember that not all the opinions are born equal.

People should nt be blamed for their thoughts. Notr while they re just that, thoughts.

People definitely should be held responsible for their thoughts, if those thoughts are hurtful to other people and are, in fact, firmly held opinions that are publicly expressed as their point of view on something, rather than just being transitory blips in consciousness.

Do we still think that freedom of speech should mean that it would be socially acceptable for us today to come on this forum ...

You are right about freedom of speech, but where do you draw the line?

How long is a piece of string?

We are social animals. What is socially acceptable depends on society and is constantly in flux, and hopefully progressively evolving us in a direction opposite to barbarism and our primitive caves. Who is society? We are.

To find out where the line is, I guess the best way is to open your mouth.

Originally Posted by izaldu

In my opinion, way beyond the referred post. There are plenty of statements in it that can be denied through evidence that's available to anyone. That would make more sense to me than the answers she s been given.

That was tried earlier up thread to which she responded that she was unconvinced. Using rationality to change biases about mores is notoriously difficult.

Originally Posted by izaldu

Anyway my point is that all you can ask for is for people to accept homosexuality or heterosexuality. To live with ti and respect it. But i think it's reasonable to consider that there are some people (many or few, that s not the point) who do not like the idea of any other orientation that is not theirs. And you should not blmae people for thoughts.

I don't see anyone "blaming" Diane for her likes and dislikes nor her thoughts (in fact I earlier expressed my compassion for her). I do see a variety of critical reactions to rather offensive statements that Diane made in the form of posts including her attempt to then stifle the freedom of others to react to her statements, thereby trying to call attention to herself and cast herself as a victim and stifle and suppress others.

One of my grandfathers was racist until the day he died. In his later years he discovered that his old one-liners didn't get the kind of reaction he was used to. In fact, quite the opposite. The day he died his racism died with him.

It is possible that nothing will ever change Diane's mind or the mind of certain others reading but not posting. But, one day, she, like all of us, will be dead and I can only hope that, just like for my grandfather, those personal opinions that might be considered by some to be ignorant and bigoted (and her strange compulsion to graphically communicate them), will die with her as new generations of reality-embracing, compassionate, inclusive, justice-promoting social human beings take all of our place on this planet.

However, when people finally realize how many people around them that they know or love are homosexual, that their son or neighbor or teacher or grocer or whomever is gay and that this is not a matter of spiteful choice and " lifestyle " (as if it were the same as getting a season ticket to baseball or not) but how you are made by God, then there can be nothing more sinful about being born as a gay person than being born a woman or being born black.

(Readers: Please click on 'Re: theJourney' in the bar at the top of my post to read the whole of the post I am replying to, but I think the above snippet conveys the crux.)

Many thanks for your generously detailed reply. I had forgotten how deeply-rooted the notion of "sin" is in some circles, and how "choice" intertwines with that. Looking at things more pragmatically now, I understand your earlier post more clearly, and I agree with your reasoning.

People definitely should be held responsible for their thoughts, if those thoughts are hurtful to other people and are, in fact, firmly held opinions that are publicly expressed as their point of view on something, rather than just being transitory blips in consciousness.

Be careful! This tends towards: "What you do or say offends me, therefore you must not do or say it!"

Just make sure YOU aren't weirder than the people you criticise! I find it strange and perverted that members of some religious sects truly believe that they are eating a wafer that has literally become human flesh. But I have no power or wish to stop them doing it.

That is why churches/religion are full of homos because it is the only safe, respectable place in which to hide from the world.

And wear frocks :-) Yes, the fact that so many priests are homosexual adds even more humour to the gay marriage debate. I'm reminded of Tom Lehrer's "Political satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize". It's all become so unreal, all you can do is laugh.

I spent 4 1/2 years in a Franciscan seminary. Although 4 of those years were in a minor seminary (high school), I can vouch for the fact that there was a good deal of homosexual activity going on. Every year a group of our classmates would suddenly vanish (we jokingly referred to this as "spring cleaning"), because they'd been busted.

And while many will say that sexual orientation isn't fully developed in high school, I definitely agree with Michael that an all-male environment would have great appeal to a kid who was gay, or struggling with the thought that he might be. And many of the priests who taught us seemed to be gay also, but here again, this is conjecture on my part. Besides the usual stereotypical mannerisms, some of them seemed to be fond of getting their hands on the students. Nothing overtly inappropriate, but a few always seemed to find a way to start a conversation with you in the hallway, and then start rubbing your neck, back, shoulder, etc., and frankly, this did tend to creep me out.

What's funny is that some of my closest friends turned out to be gay, and I had been clueless about that throughout high school. It wasn't until we hit college that they "came out" and brought me up to speed. We were all getting ready to bail out anyway, for various reasons, so I guess they figured it was time to "break my bubble". We had quite a few chuckles at my expense. Just proves through what a narrow prism we view our fellow human beings, even when they're our best friends.