That's why I think it's fair to ask the seller to be as upfront as possible but I certainly understand avoiding anything that will mark the seller as having unrealistic expectations, if in fact they don't.

Everyone approaches negotiation from a different perspective. If you like a particular boat and the seller indicates motivation by cooperating with you in your legitimate quest for more relevant information (not a struggle for dominance) and by pre-approving the contract you intend to use, then go inspect the boat and make an offer for what you believe is a reasonable price. The worst thing that will happen is a counter or no answer. Some people believe in putting a large buffer in the price in anticipation of meeting in the middle.

(By the way, "Getting to Yes", by Ury and Fisher from the Harvard Negotiation Project is undoubtedly the best manual on understanding effective negotiation.)

I bought my boat after making a written offer on another boat that was declined by the seller with a minimal movement counter. I had inspected the previous boat and took a test sail with the owner, who seemed to be a nice, decent person. The whole process took up a day of my life, but it was overall pleasant. I liked the boat and even imagined how I would sail it home, but we could not agree on price and terms. I did not spend any money other than gas money to drive to see the boat and lunch on the road.

I agree with GeorgeB - start making some offers. You are overanalyzing the boat buying process! Don't get hung up on a particular make or model or attached to the outcome, think about your purposes. Stop worrying about the brokers, who should be the least of your concerns. While you have been talking about buying about the last 2 years, the rest of us have been sailing...

I have never heard of a boat owner who has placed an advertisement but did not (seriously) want to sell. They do what I do, look at the listings and compare those boats to theirs. They talk to brokers just like you.

You have kicked a lot of tires out there, you are trending the asking prices as well as the settling prices.

To date we have seen exactly four boats. Yes, a whole four boats. And two of those the broker wanted to show us to give us an idea of what's out there. So we've really only seen two boats we thought we'd be interested in. And we'll see a few more before we buy. From where I come from, it's called being a smart buyer. Apparently, where you come from it's called a tire kicker because you're supposed to buy the first boat you look at.

If you travel a couple thousand miles to see the boat, I'd say the average seller would know you're not doing that just for grins. Though Mark did say he got called a tire kicker for doing the same thing.

You could be just exercising him to give yourself leverage on another negotiation.

That makes no sense at all. If you want to waste your time doing that, by all means, go ahead! We've got better things to do.

To the rest of you guys, I don't think you've really read everything I wrote. I know the longer a post, the less likely it will be read in its entirety. So any attempt to explain in detail the facts would most likely be a waste of time.

All I can tell you is the assumptions many of you have made are just that, assumptions. If you knew all the facts, you wouldn't have arrived at the conclusions you have.

I have never heard of a boat owner who has placed an advertisement but did not (seriously) want to sell. They do what I do, look at the listings and compare those boats to theirs. They talk to brokers just like you.

I have to disagree with you here. I think there are lots of "well if I can get this much for my boat, I can take advantage of the down market and get a bigger/better boat." But they are not factoring in the fact that there boat has fallen as well. I don't think that is being serious about selling. Then there is the "honey I posted an add and showed the boat to 10 people in the last 4 years, it is not my fault it is a down market, lets go sailing since we can't sell her." They intentionally give a high price, so it will not sell. An example is a boat I mentioned in another thread, a 1973 Carter 33 asking $95,000. Now there is no way they are serious about selling, unless they are totally delusional. I even replied assuming it was a typo, as the last one I saw on Craigslist was around 10,000 granted it needed work but was there for months before it sold, or they stopped posting it.

The thing I don't understand are the brokers that take these guys on as clients. It costs them money to advertize the boat, and take photos and show the boat, yet they must realize it will not sell for years if ever. I know one local broker that if the boat does not sell the first year, and you don't make a substantial drop in price he will stop listing it. So perhaps they are hoping reality will set in and they drop the price dramatically.

Julie, First off, check out my avatar, I’m much better looking than Bubblehead. I’m sorry that you think that I am “stalking” you. I thought that you were soliciting help and a sounding board to aid you in your search. If I’m bothering you, I’ll won’t offer any further help. I usually don’t have a lot of time to thoroughly read all the threads and I didn’t realize that you haven’t really started to look at boats. From the angst I detected in your writings I thought you were much further along. Good luck on your search and enjoy the hunt!

In the “for what’s it’s worth department”: I am deeply connected into the brokerage community here in the Bay Area. When we talk “shop” I get an earful from the broker’s point of view. Sometimes understanding things from other’s experience can be very helpful in your own situation. I like spreadsheets. I bet my database is way more extensive than yours. My spreadsheet calculates all the standard ratios as well as things like the PHRF regression formula, PacCup ratings and the OYRA offshore formula. I mine databases like sailboatdata.com. Though I am most connected to Catalina (Farallone Yachts) I can also give referrals to Sail California (JBoat and Jeaneau), and Passage Yachts (Beneteau). If you are interested, PM me and I will send you the referral information.

As I stated previously, I am well connected in our local brokerage community here in the Bay Area. Granted, these are higher end brokers (they will occasionally list boats under $50k). I have never heard of a seller listing with any one of them and not intending to go through with a sale. Perhaps someone with more experience or knowledge in the lower end of the market can illuminate this for me. The biggest broker complaint with sellers (other than an unrealistic expectation of price and value) is sellers not prepping their boat for resale. I would guess the vast majority of used boats being sold are from owners either too old or ill to maintain them or by owners who long ago lost interest in keeping them up. These owners are not very interested putting time, effort and money into something they are trying to get rid of. As buyers, we will all eventually become sellers so hopefully, we can all remember the lessons we learned during our own buying experience.

Actually, I once wanted to visit a boat that was listed way below market. The broker stalled me for a month and the listing disappeared. It came back a few months later at a much higher price.

Turns out the broker was conspiring with the seller to reduce value in a divorce. He had sold the boat to him as new and done many deals with him over the years. The seller listed it low and was able to say it didn't sell. Then, once the divorce was finalized, they raised the price by $100k and started accepting visitors. I can only assume his wife or her attorney didn't follow. OTOH, I learned who it was and the settlement was likely in the millions anyway. May not have mattered in the grand scheme of things.

OK, I'm confused. It seems that you have been looking for boats for two years, and posting hundreds of messages on the subject, including many that seem to indicate you've built up a very high level of frustration with sellers, and others explaining your theories of why so many boats are overpriced. You seem to think you've got this whole thing figured out, and you know just why those awful sellers do things to waste buyers' time.

Now you say that you've only actually looked at four boats.

Perhaps there were assumptions that led to my confusion, but you should be sensitive to the way all this looks. If you've only looked at four boats, your learning process - and your frustration - is only beginning. You are WAY over-analyzing this at such an early stage of your shopping process.

One thing I know from message boards is that once someone's messages start insisting "let me repeat myself once again," or "you obviously didn't understand what I posted before," it's time to take a breather and ask yourself who needs to listen better. You've also upped the ante by accusing some knowledgeable people of stalking you and/or posting under fake IDs. That's pretty serious stuff, and will really make people more reluctant to spend time helping you.

You may want to think about this for awhile before posting that next message.

Wow! The OP looked at a total of 4 boats. How could anyone determine boat values, condition, broker credibility with such a small effort on a seemingly huge life decision?

No good brokers in a major metropolitan area? No great values on sailboats in a down market. All the sailboats are over priced and in poor condition? Unreasonable seller expectations on what they want out of their pride and joy?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Maybe the brokers can see and smell you from a mile away. Another time waster, tire kicker, looky loo. Somebody that has not made the decision to become an owner, needs everything spelled out, wants all risk to to be abrogated to somebody else, has all the reasons not to buy located in some endless spreads.

Summer is almost over, maybe you should wait until next year, then youl'l have saved a few more bob, gotten a year older etc....missed out on a lot more sailing.

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