zabadu:I guess I just haven't met someone that has atoned and really meant it. If there is a God, and he forgives you if you just ask, then what is the point? Why be a good person if you can just say "oops" and get forgiven?

Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement) only deals with transgressions of a religious nature (did you follow the laws of kashrut?). To get forgiveness from your fellow people, there is no amount of prayer that can get you there.

The only way to get that forgiven - and this may seem weird to the non-religious folks - is to beg forgiveness from the people you wronged. (Of course, they shouldn't be dicks about it. If you're sincere in your apologies and have really tried to make it right and they still won't forgive you even after repeated overtures, THEY'RE in the wrong.)

You can't just say "oops" and all is forgiven (part of the reason YK services are so godsdamned long is to make sure you REALLY mean it - if not the first time, maybe the 10,054th time). Maimonedes wrote a whole treatise about what atonement really means, if you'd like to know more.

Coming on a Bicycle:Tatsuma: People who do these kinds of things (usually for profits) are the worst type of people.

Why? Because they insult your invisible sky monster and the stuff he or she supposedly wrote up as a set of rules? Sure, it's a bit screwy of them, but they serve otherwise healthy food.

No, it is false advertising. Selling a product that isnt what it says it is. These folks intentionally try to eat certain foods a certain way. They read halal and believe it is lamb. What they actually got was completely different.

Nice way to open up your salvo of insults to their beliefs by the way. That being said, I agree with tatsuma here. A trace amount of pork is one thing but some of the burgers having 50 % pork sounds like they are substituting cheaper meat to keep their costs down. The consumer was being lied too.

Dr Dreidel:The only way to get that forgiven - and this may seem weird to the non-religious folks - is to beg forgiveness from the people you wronged. (Of course, they shouldn't be dicks about it. If you're sincere in your apologies and have really tried to make it right and they still won't forgive you even after repeated overtures, THEY'RE in the wrong.)

Also, in certain situations G-d can step in and forgive you even if the other party decides not to forgive you and hold a grudge instead. You still have to try as hard as you can to rectify things, though.

Oh and also all Orthodox Jews recite the Nighttime Shema, which absolves any Jew from any transgressions done against us so they are not punished on our account by saying we forgive them.

Coming on a Bicycle:special20: cc_rider: special20: Tatsuma: Coming on a Bicycle: Why? Because they insult your invisible sky monster and the stuff he or she supposedly wrote up as a set of rules? Sure, it's a bit screwy of them, but they serve otherwise healthy food.

So it's alright to give product animals to vegans, because fark them and their stupid choices?

Very mature.

But bring vegan is a choice. Not dogma.

Strict adherence to religion is also a "choice", as is being an asshat and serving/selling someone a product that goes against their beliefs.

Agreed - it was wrong to serve a food product to people who do believe that consuming it obliterates their chance to enter heaven. I suppose strict adherence through guilt explains why so many kids get baptized before they even have a choice for themselves. Yup. Nice grey area there. Let's talk about politics now.

It doesn't work like that - not all religions are like Christianity. You don't get to 'not go to heaven' because you do something that is forbidden - you're supposed to keep yourself 'clean' and the only enforcers of it are your neighbors - the clan if you will.

To put it simply... If one is born into a religion, they may not have a choice but to practice that belief. It might take quite some time in a person's life when they find that nobody has any proof that any godlike being exists. By that time, if everyone in your clan is opposed to your view point, you do have a choice to move on, or be... what... stoned? So - how does it work, then? You seem to know.

Unlike those who would complain for religious reasons about how this is a savage attack on their faith, I need to point out that some people are allergic to pork (me) and this could be a deadly burger (or maybe just itchy)

BKITU:SphericalTime: FTA: <i>Suleman Nagdi, from the Federation of Muslim Organisations, said: "For people, this is touching at the very tenet of their faith, the very heart of their faith. There needs to be a criminal procedure against the company," he said. "At least it would bring some confidence into the community."</i>

No, I think civil procedure would be just fine in this instance. Violating the tenets of a religion really doesn't strike me as ever being a criminal matter.

But mislabeling product is a crime in the UK. He's invoking the religious angle to show the consequences of the crime.

There is no religious consequence. At least not for Muslims. If they eat non-halal foods either because nothing else is present or when it is "contaminated" without the knowledge of the person eating it then it is not a breach of halal rules. The people buying the burgers didn't know they weren't actually halal so there will be no divine retribution.

ShawnDoc:farkeruk: So in which case, it might as well all be dumped, as these things hardly apply to 21st century society. We've solved the problems that God cared about through technology, therefore, God should have turned up and said "about the bacon? go right ahead now".

Oh, I'm not arguing that the dietary rules still belong, just pointing out that back in the days before science there were lots of reasons to ban pork.

Although, trichinosis, including brain eating worms, is still a problem in much of the world, due to poor sanitary conditions. There's actually been an increase in recent years due to people eating pork in Mexico while on vacation.

One of our neighbors was diagnosed with a "brain tumor", except it wasn't, it was pork tapeworms in his brain. Sleep tight!

Tatsuma:special20: Hold the phone... don't all extremists that blow shiat up claim that they are following their particular commands of their assumed creator? Maybe they won't go wrong, but most certainly, an extremist will justify wrong-doing in the name of their deity.

special20:Tatsuma: special20: Hold the phone... don't all extremists that blow shiat up claim that they are following their particular commands of their assumed creator? Maybe they won't go wrong, but most certainly, an extremist will justify wrong-doing in the name of their deity.

awalkingecho:Alphakronik: As an ex-Chef, rubbing pork on the meals of people who don't eat it yet complain and send back their dishes on a regular basis.

One patron ( a muslim) of the University Club in Portland, Oregon even sent back a note for me saying it was the tastiest burger he had ever had.

I love sending people to hell without their knowledge.

(BTW, in actual Halal theory, people who follow the rules aren't even allowed to eat food that has been prepared on the same surface as pork. That shiat never happens).

At no point in time were you ever a "chef" and you have forever lost any right to call yourself one, experience aside. You were a glorified line cook and a piece of shiat, and an embarassment to the human race, and I think most every Farker agrees.

Don't speak for me.

He shouldn't have done it but if they never find out it's better than spitting in their food. There is no invisible sky wizard who is going to stop them at the gates of heaven for unwittingly eating food that touched pork, grow up.

Don't chock up to religious bigotry what can be attributed to non-religious profit motives.

In the horsemeat scandal it was demonstrated that meat went through many abattoirs on the way to being packaged into the final product. Unfortunately any of those slaughterhouses or processors could have made the substitution and without there being DNA testing along the way it's very unlikely that the substitution would ever be caught. Some abattoir or processor decided to make some profit by subbing in a different meat, probably with no religious motivation at all given the small number of Muslims in Europe and no way of knowing the destination of the product.

Digital Communist:awalkingecho: Alphakronik: As an ex-Chef, rubbing pork on the meals of people who don't eat it yet complain and send back their dishes on a regular basis.

One patron ( a muslim) of the University Club in Portland, Oregon even sent back a note for me saying it was the tastiest burger he had ever had.

I love sending people to hell without their knowledge.

(BTW, in actual Halal theory, people who follow the rules aren't even allowed to eat food that has been prepared on the same surface as pork. That shiat never happens).

At no point in time were you ever a "chef" and you have forever lost any right to call yourself one, experience aside. You were a glorified line cook and a piece of shiat, and an embarassment to the human race, and I think most every Farker agrees.

Don't speak for me.

He shouldn't have done it but if they never find out it's better than spitting in their food. There is no invisible sky wizard who is going to stop them at the gates of heaven for unwittingly eating food that touched pork, grow up.

I didn't speak for you. I said most. And just because your convictions lie on one line does not mean it is acceptable to disrespect someone else's.

zabadu:It just seems that quote seems to cover every evil transgression - not any particular. You forgot to wash your eating hand? Repent, amend and you are forgiven. All religions seem to have this out-clause. Jews- day of atonement. Catholics - confession. Oops, my bad. I repent. I am forgiven.

That's because nobody's stupid enough to imagine that a human being who isn't stillborn could actually go through life without committing some sort of transgression. Imagine belonging to a religion that didn't have an "out-clause". "Oh dear, I have sinned, no way to take that back now, I am definitely destined for eternal torment in the fires of perdition. Ah well, might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb; I guess I'll go out and murder everyone I don't like."

Satan's Bunny Slippers:So the school/council got the product for free from the producers? How nice. And I see no mention of "taxpayers". Statements from the Federation of Muslim Organisations, and the Halal Monitoring Committee, none of which threaten legal action. Only states that there 'should be' legal action. No one has filed anything against anyone, just voiced their displeasure.

So, who's threatening legal action, and who did not pay for the product?

As I said before, these are publically financed schools, paid for the local council taxes (paid by Muslims and non-Muslims alike). Kinda like property taxes in the US paying for public schools. So everybody that pays the council taxes pays for the cafeteria food (you don't actually think the entire cost is defrayed by what is charged for lunches, do you?). The only reason they serve halal food at all is due to threats and complaints to the council by the Muslim community.

Nattering Nabob:RottNDude: Ah yes, religious dietary restrictions, a tenet of yore that has absolutely no basis in the real world...

There is a scientific basis. Clean meats are at the bottom of the food chain and don't carry as many diseases. Beef, lamb, goat, etc can be cooked to a much lower temp since they don't and have a MUCH lower risk of making people sick

USDA Recommended Safe Minimum Internal Temperatures

Cook all raw beef, pork, lamb and veal steaks, chops, and roasts to a minimum internal temperature of 145 °F as measured with a food thermometer before removing meat from the heat source. For safety and quality, allow meat to rest for at least three minutes before carving or consuming. For reasons of personal preference, consumers may choose to cook meat to higher temperatures.

loonatic112358:special20: Tatsuma: special20: Hold the phone... don't all extremists that blow shiat up claim that they are following their particular commands of their assumed creator? Maybe they won't go wrong, but most certainly, an extremist will justify wrong-doing in the name of their deity.

trappedspirit:USDA Recommended Safe Minimum Internal TemperaturesCook all raw beef, pork, lamb and veal steaks, chops, and roasts to a minimum internal temperature of 145 °F as measured with a food thermometer before removing meat from the heat source. For safety and quality, allow meat to rest for at least three minutes before carving or consuming. For reasons of personal preference, consumers may choose to cook meat to higher temperatures.

I don't care if it is according to the tenets of your faith, that's just mean. Slaughterhouses are all kind of terrifying and grisly places, but at least give the animal a quick and relatively painless death.

Was the felonious act intentional? Or were you accidentally commiting armed robbery when your partner got killed?

Eh, you're arguing transfer of intent. If you rob a bank and your partner is killed by the police, you can be charged with their murder. It's a pretty safe bet neither of you intended on being caught in the first place.

I also seem to recall reading of a heart-attack death after two family members kidnapped a child from a third family member, but can't find it.

Look, you cawnpore over the contents of every burger; it's just bad lucknow and again that pig meat sometimes gets into the ostensibly non-pig meat. So you sepoys and girls just bite the bullet and eat your lunches, mkay?

Because those school administrators will havelock down on any students who make trouble about this.

farkeruk:Suleman Nagdi, from the Federation of Muslim Organisations, said: "For people, this is touching at the very tenet of their faith, the very heart of their faith. There needs to be a criminal procedure against the company," he said. "At least it would bring some confidence into the community."

What I'd love to ask this guy is why a God cares about us eating pork? I can grasp the concept of a god that exists that judges our moral behaviour. You murder someone or fark your neighbour's wife, yeah, I can see how a god might see that as wrong, in a way that helping someone look for a lost dog isn't.

But what's wrong with pigs, as opposed to sheep or chickens? It's all a bit farking arbitrary for a superbeing, isn't it?

Yes, obviously. All religions have their arbitrary rules. Welcome to Planet Earth? ;)

Personally I think this is reprehensible. Food labeling is serious business. I don't give a rats ass about religious pork restrictions but if food makers will fark around with the religious people for profit they'll just as happily fark around with me for profit. Prison time and big bucks in civil court is completely reasonable for lying to people about what's in their food.

Nattering Nabob:One of our neighbors was diagnosed with a "brain tumor", except it wasn't, it was pork tapeworms in his brain. Sleep tight!

STOP EATING PIGS FED WITH HUMAN shiat.

For god's sake, pork tapeworms should be going the way of the guinea worm at this point. Unlike trichinosis, the only carriers are humans and pigs, and the only ways the pigs can catch it is if they eat human waste.

There is no excuse for anyone in the modern world to be exposed to it.

Tatsuma:KiltedBastich: Do you enjoy knowing you are entirely predictable? How's that working out for you?

Except that I started replying to your post before you made your second, and either way it was really stupid

So you're saying it's really stupid to imagine someone who might think it's worthwhile to service their profit margin and their xenophobia at the same time? Or are you saying that it's implausible to hypothesize a xenophobic American wanting to stick it to Muslims? Do explain, this should be good.

Nattering Nabob:RottNDude: Ah yes, religious dietary restrictions, a tenet of yore that has absolutely no basis in the real world...

There is a scientific basis. Clean meats are at the bottom of the food chain and don't carry as many diseases. Beef, lamb, goat, etc can be cooked to a much lower temp since they don't and have a MUCH lower risk of making people sick

Of course, if it's in a burger (or ground or needle-tenderized or in any other way has had the outside surfaces come in contact with the inside), it all has to go up to 155°F. If it's poultry, wild game, or if it has stuffing, it has to go to 165. Pork used to have to go up to 150something, but it's recently been lowered to 145 like beef and lamb now that trichinosis in the US isn't as widespread anymore.

give me doughnuts:Satan's Bunny Slippers: So the school/council got the product for free from the producers? How nice. And I see no mention of "taxpayers". Statements from the Federation of Muslim Organisations, and the Halal Monitoring Committee, none of which threaten legal action. Only states that there 'should be' legal action. No one has filed anything against anyone, just voiced their displeasure.

So, who's threatening legal action, and who did not pay for the product?

As I said before, these are publically financed schools, paid for the local council taxes (paid by Muslims and non-Muslims alike). Kinda like property taxes in the US paying for public schools. So everybody that pays the council taxes pays for the cafeteria food (you don't actually think the entire cost is defrayed by what is charged for lunches, do you?). The only reason they serve halal food at all is due to threats and complaints to the council by the Muslim community.

I don't think we are arguing the same thing. The upshot is a product was not as it was represented, no matter WHO paid for it. I did not see anything in the article stating that the only reason they serve Halal is because of complaints and threats from the Muslim community. And of course I understand the basis of the cost of school lunches, but since it's for ALL the children (the subsidized lunch offerings) and not just Muslim kids, I don't know why that is an issue. SOMEONE paid for lamb burgers and got pork. Offering Halal is no different than offering vegetarian or vegan choices.

Pork is not lamb. Lamb is not pork. Neither is a veggie so it would be bad to offer vegetarian burgers that the school purchased to find that there was lamb or pork in them.

Religion has nothing to do with it, and farkers who are making it all about religion are being asshats.

"For people, this is touching at the very tenet of their faith, the very heart of their faith."

If the most important, most sacred part of this religion, that which defines it above all else, which represents a believer's faith to the world, the faith to the believer themselves, is the lens through which the world is described to them, and if in fact the very heart of their faith is "being picky about eating a certain type of food or not", I think the world would be a much nicer placer to live in.

If that's the case, you'd hear Holy War, and think "In-N-Out" vs. "Five Guys", or "New York Style" vs" Chicago Deep Dish", and your prophets would write up the daily scripture in the 'Social/Living' section of the newspaper.

However, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe someone was overstating the importance of a given food to this religion, like most religious extremists do about anything associated with their religion.

Cubicle Jockey:Wolves don't get ticks from the deer they eat. They get them from the grass they brush against.Lions don't get trypanasomes from eating wildebeast, they get them from the tsetse flies that bite lions.

There's more parasites out there, and some do come from prey animals, such as Toxoplasma gondii. And the bio accumulation of toxins has been around for a long time.

We eat predator fish because they're the big and available ones, and fish is alien enough from us that we generally don't have to worry about their parasites.

I don't care if it is according to the tenets of your faith, that's just mean. Slaughterhouses are all kind of terrifying and grisly places, but at least give the animal a quick and relatively painless death.

It's actually not done in the same slaughterhouse conditions. The animal must not be anesthetized or stunned, true, but care is also taken to not put the animal in undue stress or pain, right down to not sharpening the knife in front of it.

Now, do ALL Halal butchers comply? Probably not. But all in all, it's not any worse than what happens to a chicken, or when that stun rod crushes through a steer's head.

The slaughterer must be an adult Muslim, and holder of a current slaughtering license accorded by Meat Hygiene Service.

Zibah is the method or the act of slaughter also known as zibah-al-Ikhtiyaariy by which an animal or a bird is slaughtered by a Muslim by saying shahada or tasmiya, Bismillah Allahu Akbar. If the slaughter is not done by zibah method, any meat or derivatives from such carcasses cannot be deemed to be halal or permissible for Muslims to consume. Requirements for zibah are:

The knife to be used must be razor sharp; the blade must be straight and smooth, and free from any serration, pits, notches or damage. The length of the blade must be at least four times the width of the neck of the animal to be slaughtered. The blade must not flex noticeably whence in use.The animal must not be anaesthetised, stunned to be killed or otherwise rendered wholly insensible prior to slaughter. It must be conscious and alive when it is slaughtered.Poultry and other birds must be restrained either in an upright or prone position for slaughter.Lamb, sheep, goats, calves (of less than 60kg dead weight) and other similar sized animals must be placed on a cradle for slaughter and if hung on shackles all efforts are made that they do not injure or bruise themselves.Larger bovines, equines, deer and similar sized animals must be restrained in a standing position for slaughter.The act of slaughter (Zibah-al-Ikhtiyaariy) must be done with a simple swipe across the neck. The cut should not be any deeper than necessary to sever the carotid artery, jugular vein and windpipe and must not sever the spinal cord. The slaughterer must pronounce aloud or under lip the Arabic words, Bismillah, AllahuAkbar (in the name of Allah, Allah is the greatest) in a reverential tone (if possible), when slaughtering. The Jugular vein, windpipe and carotid artery should be cut by a single swipe of a sharp knife, without damage to the spinal cord.After being slaughtered, lambs, sheep, goats and other similar sized animals must be restrained in situ for at least 20 seconds. Bovine and other similarly sized animals must be restrained in situ for 60 seconds. Poultry and other birds must not be subjected to any further processing for at least 20 seconds. During the aforementioned period they must not be further injured, nor subjected to unnecessary stress or pain. Indeed it is desirable that efforts are made to clam them during this period.The slaughterer must clean the knife after slaughter of every animal or bird and must check that the knife still conforms to above rules. If damaged, the knife must be replaced. If it is no longer razor sharp, it must be sharpened, say, on a flat stone and approved by an HFA inspector before further use. Note that the knife must not be sharpened in sight of animals awaiting slaughter.The slaughterer or supervisor must ensure that all the flowing blood has been drained from the chicken or ovine or bovine carcass.The water used during the poultry de-feathering process must be at the lowest practical temperature in vogue.No dorsal cut is allowed, since this method would slice or sever the spinal cord and the bird or the animal is rendered incapacitated to convulse to drain the flowing blood out of the carcassAt the abattoir, slaughterhouse, distribution centre and retail outlets, DEFRA (Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs), Meat Hygiene Services (MHS), European Union (EU) and local hygiene laws and regulations should always be adhered to, and strictly followed at every stage of the process.

Actually kosher slaughter is a lot more humane than stunning. The blade is extremely sharp, and done in one swift motion. Basically all the arteries that feed blood to the brain are cut, and the animal loses consciousness almost instantly (1 to 3 seconds) and the rest is all nerves and automatic responses. The animal does not suffer that way

This is about something a UK school and a European distributor, and you tried to make it about the evils of the Tea Party. That's why it's so farking stupid.

Except, no, I didn't. I explained that literally seconds later when I noted, obviously correctly, that I had been initially unclear about my meaning. You jumped the gun anyhow despite my clarification of my point. I offered a familiar example to illustrate my hypothesis, and when I pointed out that I had already made clear I wasn't saying it was an actual American xenophobe later on (note, you're the only person in this exchange who used the term Tea Party, I never put those words into any of my posts), you doubled down and said it's still stupid.

So, please explain why the things I actually stated, as opposed to your knee jerk projections and misinterpretations about what I stated, are actually stupid. Go on, I want to watch you paint yourself even further into a corner.

Actually kosher slaughter is a lot more humane than stunning. The blade is extremely sharp, and done in one swift motion. Basically all the arteries that feed blood to the brain are cut, and the animal loses consciousness almost instantly (1 to 3 seconds) and the rest is all nerves and automatic responses. The animal does not suffer that way

KiltedBastich: Do explain, this should be good.

This is about something a UK school and a European distributor, and you tried to make it about the evils of the Tea Party. That's why it's so farking stupid.

FFS, the same un-sourced mumbo-jumbo in every discussion about kosher/halal slaughter. Care to provide a source that's not from b'nai brith?

PC LOAD LETTER:While religious dietary restrictions are mostly silly, it doesn't mean you can do this.

This. The wholly secular principle of "your food should be what it says on the tin" is worth defending even when it says something pointless on the tin.

If you want to label your meatballs as "whiffleblodget", which is defined as consisting solely of a 50-50 mix of salmon and beef, I might think it's silly that anyone would think it's a sin against FSM to eat spaghetti with non-whiffleblodget meatballs - but once you stick the "whiffleblodget" label on the wrapper, it damn well better be half salmon and half beef.

Digital Communist:FFS, the same un-sourced mumbo-jumbo in every discussion about kosher/halal slaughter. Care to provide a source that's not from b'nai brith?

Well, while "humane" has to be loosely defined, kosher/halal butchers are commanded by God to make the animal happy and comfortable, and to provide a pleasant and reassuring presence to comfort the animal while it dies, to ease it's passing as a sacrifice for our well being. I'm sure there's people who respect animals at other slaughterhouses, as well, but I'd have trouble believing they aren't more about throughput and getting the next animal in the stall.

farkeruk:What I'd love to ask this guy is why a God cares about us eating pork? I can grasp the concept of a god that exists that judges our moral behaviour. You murder someone or fark your neighbour's wife, yeah, I can see how a god might see that as wrong, in a way that helping someone look for a lost dog isn't.

But what's wrong with pigs, as opposed to sheep or chickens? It's all a bit farking arbitrary for a superbeing, isn't it?

It's an interesting question I guess, but I don't have to believe in word one of any of it to still think that the issue (for the supplier) isn't about respecting some supposed god but rather respecting the feelings of his customer.

I might think your dietary rules are pointless, but I won't make you violate them unawares, that's disrespecting YOU.

orbister:Generally I don't care what people eat, but I'm buggered if I can see why local authority schools should pander to a bunch of iron age superstitions, particularly when it involves significant cruelty to animals.

The problem is that claimed they WERE pandering, when actually they weren't.

If the school says "fark you, all meals here have 50% bacon content and if you don't like it you can pack a sack lunch" at least that would be honest.

Anyway though - I find it amusing how locally to me there are plenty of people who will get all up in arms in the letters column about how religious dietary rules are pandering and stupid and lol fark the muslims or whatever it is, and then turn around full of outrage at the idea of horse slaughterhouses selling meat to willing markets. Somehow "we don't eat horses! eat a dog? Hell no that's fighting words!" is "normal" but not wanting to eat pigs isn't...