MSNBC and their love affair with Obama is really transparent and spooky.
That some Americans actually watch MSNBC and consider it to be a
good news source is even more frightening. You'd think they'd be
smarter than that. It's a sad statement about the state of this country.

Be careful .... if you don't like MSNBC or Obama ya' might be considered to be 'fishy' by Obama's shills. They might call up the 'fishy'
hotline on ya'.

Last night on Hardball, Mathews reported that a man at a Republican Town Hall meeting stood up and said, "I'm a proud right wing terrorist".
Mathews used this as evidence that the town hall protesters are actually terrorists.

Is he really that stupid? Does he really not know the guy was making fun of MSNBC's characterization of them?

Every morning I log into ATS after checking my email and reading the news, and every morning there is more and more angry spin. Wimbly, do you
not understand context? Mr. Dean was speaking about the out and out lies that the far right is spewing in order to undermine actual debate. Did you
some how miss the thread Bill (Skeptic Overlord) posted last week or so?

I don't see how you could, www.abovetopsecret.com... but I'll do my best to recap the gist of it. The Republican
leadership has decided to go "all in," and now have their activist and lobbyists that support their pro corporate policies on high alert. They are
actively trying to undermine any civil discourse, not just health care debate. That type of strategy of the end justifying the means is Machiavellian
and has no place in American politics.

I'll quote S.O. here (and this comes from a lobbyist in D.C.):The Republicans Have Their Long-Knives Out: "Ever since the election, and for the
foreseeable future, the Republicans only have one thing on their mind, screw Obama." He said nothing else matters to them, not voters, and certainly
not getting anything done. While the daily dance of special interest continues, he said that everyone is continually distracted by the inside war
between Republicans and Democrats... and the smart lobbyists are the ones approaching Republicans with strategies and plans to undermine the Democrats
and especially Obama. His concern was (and this was in late May, before the worst of it began), that the "get Obama" climate was in danger of
getting out of control and irreparably damaging the entire country.

Do you not see that there is a difference in debate/disagreement/civil discourse, and outright lying/shouting/hyperbole? For the record, I am not for
the Democrats version of health care, as it is currently being discussed. But I am all for having the discussion. And in my book, saying that
undermining civil discourse is the same as undermining America itself is not only correct, it is the only intellectually honest response to such vile
and childish behavior.

As for your next misrepresentation (the Hardball story), you say that "Mattews used this as evidence that the town hall protesters are ACTUALLY
terrorists" (emphasis added). But that is an outright LIE. Here is the actually story in context (begins at 1:25):
www.msnbc.msn.com... He only pointed out the the "Dangerous" nature of applauding a man who thinks its OK to label HIMSELF a
terrorist. He called himself a TERRORIST. It may have been a joke, but it was a joke in poor taste and applauding such angry rhetoric is
irresponsible at best, and is better labeled criminal negligence.

Now, let me ask you a question. If the men and women showing up a the town halls carrying rifles in protest and chanting about socialism were of
Arabic descent, and were wearing traditional Muslim clothing, would you still support THEIR right to carry the assault rifles to the meetings, or is
this simply a case of you being nothing more than a political hack, and an unwitting disinfo operative of the right wing? I think we already know the
answer to that though. If you disagree with the proposed reform, I'm all for posting your disagreements and airing grievances, but to everyday wake
up and think of ways to bad mouth those with whom you disagree, that must be a sad existence indeed. Peace.
-AAH

Wimbly,
I felt somewhat out of line referring to you as a "political hack" in my post above. So, I went and looked at your profile, and found that since
just over a month ago (July 09), you have started 47 threads. www.abovetopsecret.com... That's
great, and good job fighting the good fight and denying ignorance. Except there's just one curious thing, all 47 of your threads have to do with bad
mouthing Obama or MSNBC or both. Curious. I'm not saying that you joined right around the same time all the disinfo out of D.C. started in earnest,
I'm just pointing out a coincidence.
-Peace

Mr. Dean was speaking about the out and out lies that the far right is spewing in order to undermine actual debate. Did you some how miss the
thread Bill (Skeptic Overlord) posted last week or so?

After reading your entire post, its clear that you would have us all suspend disbelief. MSNBC in particular has made it their mission to demonize any
Americans who doesn't tow Obama's line. Howard Dean has also made a habit of this sort of demonetization over the years. Remember his constant
slogan of "taking back our America" during the 2004 campaign?

This idea that there are all kinds of lies and misinformation coming from the right is in itself spin from the media and white house. The only people
undermining debate, are the people in the media and on these forum always painting anyone who disagrees with your view of things as a rabble rouser of
some kind.

Somehow, I doubt you would have a problem with the post, if I was pointing out some Fox news commentator for saying something stupid.

The Republican leadership has decided to go "all in," and now have their activist and lobbyists that support their pro corporate policies on
high alert. They are actively trying to undermine any civil discourse, not just health care debate. That type of strategy of the end justifying
the means is Machiavellian and has no place in American politics.

So, by getting Americans involved and showing up to town halls, Republicans are actually executing an insidious plot to stop debate? Are you sure you
arent just trying to rationalize shutting up debate that you don't like? Its so ironic that after 8 years of some of the most vitriolic dissent I've
ever seen, that people on the left side of the isle suddenly have a problem with old people questioning government at town halls. Now its all painted
as some racist conspiracy. Sorry, I reject your hyperbolic spin.

Compared to riots and protests over the last 8 years, this stuff is child's play. In my opinion, shutting down debate is declaring "the debate is
over", as Al Gore and many of the left continually do on subjects they don't feel the need to defend.

I'll quote S.O. here (and this comes from a lobbyist in D.C.):The Republicans Have Their Long-Knives Out: "Ever since the election, and for
the foreseeable future, the Republicans only have one thing on their mind, screw Obama."

Yeah, because SkepticOverlord is the arbiter of non-partisanship.

Tell me, where was the ATS outrage when Bush was elected and protesters flooded his inauguration? Do you honestly beleive Democrats didn't want to
torpedo Bush at every turn?

Welcome to Politics. You cant just dismiss our arguments, because Skeptic Overlord rationalized doing it with partisan rhetoric.

He said nothing else matters to them, not voters, and certainly not getting anything done

Well then. Since SO said it, it must be true! Hey Republicans, Skeptic Overlord said that all republicans are just brain less automatons who have no
legitimate concerns!

Do you not see that there is a difference in debate/disagreement/civil discourse, and outright lying/shouting/hyperbole? For the record, I am
not for the Democrats version of health care, as it is currently being discussed. But I am all for having the discussion. And in my book, saying that
undermining civil discourse is the same as undermining America itself is not only correct, it is the only intellectually honest response to such vile
and childish behavior.

You're still under the wrong impression that you set the standard for what legitimate debate is and inst. This particular thread is pointing out how
the MSM is demonizing those who don't agree with NHC for legitimate reasons that they don't want to have to address. You're all throwing a
collective temper tantrum, because the debate isn't going your way.

www.msnbc.msn.com... He only pointed out the the "Dangerous" nature of applauding a man who thinks its OK to label HIMSELF a terrorist. He
called himself a TERRORIST. It may have been a joke, but it was a joke in poor taste and applauding such angry rhetoric is irresponsible at best, and
is better labeled criminal negligence.

No, the man didn't call himself a terrorist. The media and DHS ave labeled him a terrorist. He wasn't making a joke per se. For you to pretend as if
Mathews wasn't bending the truth in order to back up his hyperbole over the last few weeks, is again the willing suspension of disbelief.

I'm all for posting your disagreements and airing grievances, but to everyday wake up and think of ways to bad mouth those with whom you
disagree, that must be a sad existence indeed. Peace.

So, you beleive that I somehow manifest these MSM propaganda pieces, by thinking? Can you explain the logic of how I'm "bad mouthing" people, by
pointing out MSM bad mouthing opponents of health care? How does that work?

Now, let me ask you a question. If the men and women showing up a the town halls carrying rifles in protest and chanting about socialism were
of Arabic descent, and were wearing traditional Muslim clothing, would you still support THEIR right to carry the assault rifles to the
meetings

#2: If they were American citizens, with the proper license to carry a weapon under the laws of the state, I'd have no problem with it.

That's great, and good job fighting the good fight and denying ignorance. Except there's just one curious thing, all 47 of your threads have
to do with bad mouthing Obama or MSNBC or both. Curious. I'm not saying that you joined right around the same time all the disinfo out of D.C.
started in earnest, I'm just pointing out a coincidence.
-Peace

So now instead of a political hack, I'm some kind of secret propaganda agent? Interesting how your brain works. Those who point out media hyperbole
are in fact them selves hyperbolic. If you post a lot of threads about Obama and the media's slavish defense of him, you are yourself a slavish
shill.

I'm just a guy who has been at ATS for a loooong time and has an interest in media bias.

I'll present it to you this way: you believe that I am too partisan to see the forest for the trees and that I buy into everything that the
leftist media (MSNBC/CNN) says; and, I believe that you buy into everything the media on the right (Rush/Fox) throws your way. Thus, we are starting
from a deep chasm ideologically to begin with.

However, would it matter to you if I said that I am, in fact, a registered Republican and Veteran and do not support the left any more than the right.
In fact, I watch O'Reilly as often as I do Olbermann, and I take each with a grain of salt. So yes, I would still have a problem if you were
spewing this nonsense about Fox. Neither of them are good news sources alone, but in case you missed it, MSNBC does occasionally attack the Dems as
well. Matthews is a conservative on most issues.

I know, you have no reason to believe that, but if you read my posts and the threads I have started, I have Always attempted to make it clear that I
am only on the side of truth, and I am deeply against the left v. right dichotomy that has been set up for us. I DO NOT support health care reform as
it is proposed. But that does not mean I am too blind to see that cries of socialism and "death panel" are simply LIES. Would you really have us
enter another era like that of Sen. McCarthy and the red scare... only this time labeling everyone a Socialist.

I did not approve of people equating Bush with Hitler and I do not approve of it now with Obama. I actively campaigned for Bush in 2000 and managed
to register many of my fellow sailors to his side in that election. He then lied to us. So am I weary of Republican lies..."you betcha!" But, I
am also aware of and just as afraid of the lies from the left. This HC reform, as proposed will harm me and my family by mandating that I provide
insurance for ALL of my employees. Well, I run a small business and unless prices are driven WAY down, I will have to cut back on my employees or
reduce their pay to make ends meet. This is an important debate to me therefore.

But if you honestly believe that you are helping the situation by everyday trying to paint every democrat as a liar and a socialist and someone who
will pull the plug on granny, then you are NOT helping my debate about the actual issues.

I don't need S.O. to tell me what the far right is doing. I can see it for myself because I no longer view the world through partisan eyes. I only
quote him because, if taken at his word, it is evidence of the actual intent of those in Washington to undermine debate.

I sincerely apologize for the implication that you only do this to stir up disinfo... your response shows enough concern for that to obviously not be
the case. However, it is obvious that you refuse to even question whether it is possible that your side is manipulating you as well. You are a true
believer, and cannot be convinced otherwise. If this remains to be the case, further debate is unnecessary, because it will only result in pushing
you further into your beliefs.

As for the Howard Dean argument. There is no question as to whether or not the far right has espoused out right lies to shape this debate, any denial
of that FACT is pure ignorance.

If, as you say, I am under the wrong idea about what is legitimate debate, then why don't you give me an example of what you don't like about HC
reform, other than what I have already said about the middle class, or the lies of SOCIALISM and DEATH PANELS. I hope you can, but I doubt that it
would be as much fun for you as your daily posts about Obama this MSNBC that. Good Luck!

However, it is obvious that you refuse to even question whether it is possible that your side is manipulating you as well. You are a true
believer, and cannot be convinced otherwise. If this remains to be the case, further debate is unnecessary, because it will only result in pushing you
further into your beliefs.

Not at all, I'm aware that everyone is trying to mislead me. I'm just not as interested in pointing out Fox's manipulation, considering the left as
so much more influence and power in the media.

That doesn't mean that everything the Republicans and people like Rush are saying is lies and misinformation. I gotta tell you, a lot thats coming
from Obama is pretty deceitful.

MATTHEWS: Next up, here's one from Republican Congressman Wally Herger of California. At his town hall meeting some guy yelled out, bragging
that he was quote, "A proud right wing terrorist." To which the Congressman responded, "Amen. God bless ya! Now there's a great American." A
great American. A guy who thinks it's okay, in this day and age, to call himself a right wing terrorist. This is the dangerous edge, in which
these people, including some elected officials are now dancing. We've been here before. Words lead to actions, words create the national mood,
the mood creates a license. People take that license and use it. I'm not spelling it out any further because I don't want to.

You want to talk about manipulation, well thats what this is right here. We both know the guy was playing on the idea the media is pushing that these
people are all right wing extremists. Chris Mathews used the guys blatantly sarcastic remark in order to scare viewers in to thinking some Republican
is about to leap from the bushes and kill them.

Originally posted by Wimbly
Last night on Hardball, Mathews reported that a man at a Republican Town Hall meeting stood up and said, "I'm a proud right wing terrorist".
Mathews used this as evidence that the town hall protesters are actually terrorists.

Is he really that stupid? Does he really not know the guy was making fun of MSNBC's characterization of them?

[edit on 25-8-2009 by Wimbly]

uhmm. no...that's a lie...i saw it...when the guy stood up and said that...A REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMEN ANSWERED BACK...YOU SOUND LIKE A PROUD
AMERICAN...

i guess if your right wing...it's OK TO BE A TERRORIST!!!!.... words have consequences, over 4000 soldiers died fighting terrorists...it's not a
word TO BE PROUD OF!!!!!

Disagree with Obama? Not only are you undermining the country....you are a Nazi, unAmerican, a hate monger, and most of all....a racist!

"I'm sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you're not patriotic. We need to stand up
and say we're Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration." Mrs. Bill Clinton

If, as you say, I am under the wrong idea about what is legitimate debate, then why don't you give me an example of what you don't like about
HC reform

Nobody is against reform. We are against nationalizing HC and calling it reform.

Public Housing:
Goal: To provide cheap housing to those that can't afford it at taxpayer expense.
Result: Sending in SWAT teams on a regular basis to clear out the drugs, gangs, and prostitutes. I'm not sure what the costs are, but I'm quite
confident they've gone up, not down. And all we have to show for it is another generation of couch potatoes living off the government tit.

Public Retirement (aka Social Security)
Goal: To provide retirement for all the people
Result: This system will collapse(it's really a ponzi scheme), when, around 2020(the exact data isn't important) or something like that? Costs have
skyrocketed, and services(and payments) are being cut.

Public Education
Goal: To provide education opportunities for all
Result: Costs(such as college tuition) ha ve skyrocketed and the standards have fallen apart. We spend more per student/per year than any other
industrialized nation on earth yet....How many US students can't find Mexico on the map?

Public Health care(Medicare & Medicaid)
Goal: To provide health care to the poor and elderly
Result: Cost explosion and service are far below what would be considered adequate. Why are there so many "supplamental" insurance programs out
there? To date Congress has never been able to rein in spending or accurately forecast costs of this program

other than what I have already said about the middle class, or the lies of SOCIALISM and DEATH PANELS. I hope you can

It is socialism. Its more socialism than we've ever had before. Its yet more government interference in to people's lives and a step towards what
our founding fathers warned us of.

The use of the phrase "death panels" may have been a bit dramatic, but there are provisions in the HC bill for rationing of health care. Obama has
implied as much himself.

Originally posted by Artephius Abraxas Helios
Wimbly,
I felt somewhat out of line referring to you as a "political hack" in my post above. So, I went and looked at your profile, and found that since
just over a month ago (July 09), you have started 47 threads. www.abovetopsecret.com... That's
great, and good job fighting the good fight and denying ignorance. Except there's just one curious thing, all 47 of your threads have to do with bad
mouthing Obama or MSNBC or both. Curious. I'm not saying that you joined right around the same time all the disinfo out of D.C. started in earnest,
I'm just pointing out a coincidence.
-Peace

good pull on that research...however this does not shock me...same stuff, different year. they love the "FEAR", they embrace it, they salivate over
it, and the fact that he is half black, inspires them to reach new heights of fear-mongering. unfortunately we are still under republican
control...why? because so few of them are now in power, but their scare tactics recieve MORE attention than the vast majority that support the
healthcare overhaul in this country. we are on the way to becoming an economic ghetto of minimum-wage, part-time, wage slaves like the other 3rd
worlders...besides, only people with alot of money deserve healthcare, all others can simply die from the lack of it...

Originally posted by RRconservative
"I'm sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you're not patriotic. We need to stand up
and say we're Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration." Mrs. Bill Clinton

HA! And look what has happened to our Secretary of State. She's being pushed aside. Obama's got others running around doing her job. Heck, he
even pulled Bill Richardson in and sent him to Cuba.

Not at all, I'm aware that everyone is trying to mislead me. I'm just not as interested in pointing out Fox's manipulation,
considering the left as so much more influence and power in the media.

That's not quite right, as FOX news has been beating the pants off the other guys for quite some time now.
www.huffingtonpost.com... I know its from Huffington Post, but the Nielson ratings it quotes
are accurate to the best of my knowledge.

More resources as in if you combine the ratings for CNN and MSNBC, both of which are in love with Obama, then The ONE (The Obama News Entertainment)
is pretty far ahead. Seeing as how Fox is the only conservative news network.

That's not quite right, as FOX news has been beating the pants off the other guys for quite some time now. www.huffingtonpost.com... I know
its from Huffington Post, but the Nielson ratings it quotes are accurate to the best of my knowledge.

They have high ratings yes, but thats because they're the only outlet for non-left wing propaganda. Fox is up against: ABC, CBS, PBS (publicly funded
left wing propaganda), NBC, MSNBC and CNN. Thats just news media, ten you have Hollywood and most print media too.

More resources as in if you combine
the ratings for CNN and MSNBC, both of which are in love with Obama, then The ONE (The Obama News Entertainment) is pretty far ahead. Seeing as how
Fox is the only conservative news network. Originally posted by jd140

Wrong again: "Fox News retained its #1 spot, averaging more total viewers in Monday-Sunday primetime (1.959 million, up 24% over May 2008) than
CNN (767,000, down 22%) and MSNBC (756,000, up 10%) combined." That's the first sentence of the article above, but here it is again
www.huffingtonpost.com...

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