some strange slow laps from vergne in the last stint just as di resta and dan took him, maybe had a problem but seemed to pick up speed again a few laqps later. If that 2nd SC didn't happen he would have looked quite good for a result I think.

Vettel still seems to think ricciardo was in the wrong?

I think perhaps it was tyre wear? His tyres were a bit older than Daniel's and I noticed Daniel's times drop a little right at the end. I think in the end the luck was even between the two in this race. Vergne was put on an aggressive strategy early on where he pitted during the first safety car, I think they always knew it would be a two stopper for him so the SC worked well and somehow he only lost 2 or 3 places under it and was only a few seconds off Daniel. Then they used the second safety car to bring Daniel in and put him on softs. He came out behind JEV and DIR.

Vettel thinks everyone else is wrong when he screws up behind safety cars.

If he had actually collected Dan I think I would have just imploded then and there.

*

Dan is easily the better driver of the two this season.

Things I'd like to see next season: STR's strategist fired and they get a new one who stops giving BOTH of them inexplicably stupid strategies. I don't think it was such a problem here, but they've both been screwed over by strategic misteps this season.

I believe you eventually measure a driver's performance by his number of points, regardless of what happened to him/the work he did.

The points = $$$$$$, the points = how you are remembered, the points = how you win.

In his first season, against a more experienced guy, JEV wins.

Simple fact, as I said, and you can't do better than just come up with some insults and by being disrespectful.

Maybe because points isn't the only indicator of performance? especially for drivers in mid table teams. JEV drive in monaco was excellent, but guess what? he scored no points. Should it be ignored? ofcourse not. The same thing goes for DR at monza where his car broke down on the final corner. It was a great drive, but he scored no points, so i guess we just forget about it?

There are a lot of top drivers on the grid in the best cars, right now, that didn't outscore their team mates in various seasons and different formula. But they are still in F1 and are non pay drivers. The teams (and hardcore fans) know what to look for in a good driver and are capable of judging performances because we actually follow everyone very closely. Coming in here and saying whoever scores the most points a STR wins is an ok thing to do, after all its your opinion, but don't expect people to pay attention to you.

And its pretty clear you are just a massive troll anyway, simple fact, fact as stated its a fact.

One thing that wont change is that JEV's been knocked out in Q1 eight times. That's pretty embarassing.

Dan's clearly got that little bit more one lap speed, enough to get him into Q2. Q2, of course, where he often blows two more sets of tyres and lines up alongside JEV anyway. So JEV gets rewarded for being slower by having more fresh rubber..... seems more than a bit wrong.

Yes, JEV's qualyfing woes are a case in point. It's a problem, he knows it, the team knows it, but it seams it won't improve until next season.

On the other hand, they always have similar race pace and float around one another. As some people said here earlier, the car isn't good enough to assert a precise comparison. I think they're on par speed wise, with only the points separing them.

I believe you eventually measure a driver's performance by his number of points, regardless of what happened to him/the work he did.

The points = $$$$$$, the points = how you are remembered, the points = how you win.

In his first season, against a more experienced guy, JEV wins.

Simple fact, as I said, and you can't do better than just come up with some insults and by being disrespectful.

I called your "analysis" laughable because it takes no account of factors outside the drivers control. So your "strong facts" lack context.

It makes no allowance for points losses due to mechanical issues. Ricciardo has lost points twice this year due to mechanical issues. A point in Italy on the last corner due to fuel pickup problems and handing over 8th to Vergne at Korea after being miles ahead due to his brake issues that spat him off the track. Factor those in and the positions would be reversed.

What is more important in judging their relativity to each other though is their qualifying and final race positions.

If you look at their quali records Ricciardo is way in front.

If you look at their finishing positions where both have finished the race it's a 7 a piece. It's actually 10-7 (DR/JEV) if you include all the races whether they finished or not. Ricciardo was being shown the way in the first half of the year but has appeared in the points 5 times out of the last 7 races to JEV's twice.

So for me at the moment DR is the quicker qualifier and they are about the same race wise with perhaps DR gaining the upper hand in the back end of the year.

We'll see what happens next year when they both know the tracks equally well. Perhaps things will change.

STR has scored points 5 times in the last 7 races, it's a very good representation mate.

And there is no need to imagine anything else than the reality, really.

Just to refresh your memory, Dan was well ahead of JEV in Korea(15sec?) until he had a brake/tyre issue which forced him to slow down massively and caused him to run off the track a couple of times. Without that Dan would be 2-3 points ahead, not to mention his car failing at the last corner while in the points at Monza. To any non biased fan Dan has been well ahead in pretty much every department. To give JEV his dues he has been very crafty in the races and shown a good knack to get up from his poor qualifying performances. Next season there will be no more excuses for him re: qualifying, so lets see.

I think JEV has already ran out of excuses when it comes to qualifying. A track like Abu Dhabi he knew very well from the YDT, but yet again he made an error under pressure in quali.

Everyone was expecting Daniel to beat a seasoned veteran in Liuzzi immediately when he was brought in mid-season (so no preseason testing to get familiar with the car as JEV has had) there were no free passes there because he didn't know the tracks. And within just a couple of races he was starting to beat him.

Qualifying ain't that hard. You're quick or you're not.

As for the races JEV is very aggressive and we all know Marko likes that. But his defensive skills are questionable. I don't understand why he just let Schumi through yesterday, he should have tried to hold him up to give RIC a better chance at the point.

I think goingthedistance made a very good point earlier, that Dan has improved as the season has progressed whereas JEV does not seem to be making the same strides.

Now I know it's his first year, and Dan had half a season experience with HRT - which may help to explain how he has come on strong in the second half of the season as he's racing on tracks he did last year - but I've seen quite a few heads shaking on the STR pitwall and unfortunately it's always been just after Vergne has just been knocked out in Q1. This doesn't look good.

AdHoc... oops sorry, Ravenak - seems to think that JEV qualifying issues will be ironed out with next years car, so I guess we'll see...

Hmmm... well, poor qualy result for Ricciardo today. Apart from having trouble getting a clear run early on in Q1 it sounds like he was having trouble switching on the tyres, and then the yellows came out as he was trying to do his last couple of runs.

Good result from Vergne who seemed to make the tyres work a bit better. Perhaps indicative of the trend we have seen over the season where JEV is a bit more aggressive on the tyres while Ricciardo looks the smoother driver - which worked in Vergne's favour today but meant that Dan couldn't get the tyres to switch on quick enough for him?

Brilliant racecraft from Ricciardo today, some smooth moves. P12 with only one top car (Webber) not finishing in front of him is a good job given STRs pace. Shame no points though.

Dan seemed to be very happy to pass so many cars this race after a poor start from the dirty side of the grid. Apparently he made a double pass on one corner. I wasn't able to watch the race, did he get any coverage? Wouldn't mind seeing those replays.

A shame they kept him out so long on the medium when everyone clearly had better pace on the hard tyre...torro rosso often get the pit stop call wrong. I think because they base their decision on the data they have on the tyre from practice and qualifying but can't make calls from what's happening in the race to other cars. Dan said the team was surprised the hards were so quick, well look at the timing screen!

Hope Dan gets some points in Brazil as he doesn't deserve to be behind JEV in the standings

Dan seemed to be very happy to pass so many cars this race after a poor start from the dirty side of the grid. Apparently he made a double pass on one corner. I wasn't able to watch the race, did he get any coverage? Wouldn't mind seeing those replays.

A shame they kept him out so long on the medium when everyone clearly had better pace on the hard tyre...torro rosso often get the pit stop call wrong. I think because they base their decision on the data they have on the tyre from practice and qualifying but can't make calls from what's happening in the race to other cars. Dan said the team was surprised the hards were so quick, well look at the timing screen!

Hope Dan gets some points in Brazil as he doesn't deserve to be behind JEV in the standings

For once he did get some decent coverage, yes, so worth watching the replay if you can. He was brilliant into T1 and T12 all race, very opportunistic. Made JEV look a bit sloppy by comparison, but he was struggling with tyre temperature, apparently.

STR (and Dan in particular) do seem to struggle on the primes often, so I guess they tried something different today. Ultimately with perfect strategy he would have got Perez, but I'm not sure he could have got the Williams pair, the car was not quick enough.

Ricciardo showed what he was about today. He overtook Vergne on track (who then lost the plot running into two people which eventually led to his DNF) and made a bunch of good passes on very fast cars.

I think Dan needs to improve still a bit further to grab that seat, particularly in qualifying performance which would be critical driving a Red Bull, but if he continues the recent trend he will be genuinely on the frame.

I maintain both are good drivers made look worse by an underwhelming car. And whilst I have no big favorites between them, this season has enforced my pre-season feeling that Ricciardo was just about the most promising of the two and would have the upper hand. I'm surprised that has tended to happen late season, when it should be JEV catching up now after the experience deficit earlier on.

Points give the advantage to JEV but Dan's been better IMO, and Red Bull will be aware of it.

At this stage Dan would have to be the favourite of the 2 STR drivers to step up to a potential RBR seat in 2014. RBR and Marko will have data from STR and simulator sessions so can surely gain some insight into the relative talents of the drivers, although some people think that Marko will only accept Dan and JEV winning a race ala Vettel at Monza '08 as satisfying the criteria for a step up to the big team. Hopefully STR can give the guys a car next year with which they can more obviously show off their talents...

Antonio Felix da Costa is an outlier, I have a sneaking suspicion that he may be the one that pinches that seat, if it doesn't go to an established driver like Di Resta, Hulkenberg, Raikkonen (my tip) etc. He is wowing people in his lower formulae performances in a way no one has for a very long time. I'm sure he'll be doing Friday practice sessions next year for STR.

I think both the car and drivers were a bit below par at the start of the season, but the quality of Dan's performances lately have been very high. In a car as quick as last year's STR I think he would have been on for a P4-P6 yesterday. It was nice to see him duel with top quality drivers and get past them very neatly.

JEV did very well in quali. A shame for him that his suspension broke. Daniel looked to have the better of him in the race, though who knows how things would have ultimately panned out.

JEV did very well in quali. A shame for him that his suspension broke. Daniel looked to have the better of him in the race, though who knows how things would have ultimately panned out.

I've noticed interesting thing this year.

In qualifying Ricciardo dominates Vergne, but in races they're more equal. But if Dan loses qualifying with JEV, he has then much better race than his team-mate. I think it happened 3 times this year. Wonder if this is only coincidence? Or does my memory fall and something like this happened only in my imagination? Sorry, I'm too lazy to verify it now.

In qualifying Ricciardo dominates Vergne, but in races they're more equal. But if Dan loses qualifying with JEV, he has then much better race than his team-mate. I think it happened 3 times this year. Wonder if this is only coincidence? Or does my memory fall and something like this happened only in my imagination? Sorry, I'm too lazy to verify it now.

you have an extra set of fresh rubber if you get bungled out in q3 ;) although would not make much, if any, difference in one stop races such as sunday.

First things first - can someone please tell these guys to get different coloured helmets please? Or do they have to look the same as well

Interesting (confusing..) weekend. Vergne absolutely smashed Dan in qually. Dan never even got close this time. Thought I heard it mentioned he couldn't get the tyres working quickly enough or something (although I don't know if I agree with this as they were doing plenty of laps in the runs I think. Although Dan was just ahead in the prac sessions (?).

The tyre heating possible issue made me think he was going to have a tough first stint but it was the exact opposite shocking start but then he just crushed everyone in sight with ease! I would like to hear more about JEV's issue and see when it started, maybe the reason for his slow opening pace compared to Dan.

Ultimately though, Dan you would have to say had a bad weekend and didn't maximise the potential of the car (shit as it still may be) by fluffing qually and the team left him out a bit too long. He wouldn't have made up much more but they should have taken the gamble of his tyres falling off at the 2nd stint. What did he have to lose? 12th place? His pace in the 2nd stint was good, but unfortunately on par with those ahead of him who were waaay up the road from stopping earlier (I think).

Strange weekend with performance see sawing between the 2 of them. Really need some more info from the team. Does anyone know where they release any info/statements? I only really check their twitter and don't get much from that.

Seems to me whenever williams struggle is when STR pick up thse points, but willy is looking to be sorted now.

First things first - can someone please tell these guys to get different coloured helmets please? Or do they have to look the same as well

Interesting (confusing..) weekend. Vergne absolutely smashed Dan in qually. Dan never even got close this time. Thought I heard it mentioned he couldn't get the tyres working quickly enough or something (although I don't know if I agree with this as they were doing plenty of laps in the runs I think. Although Dan was just ahead in the prac sessions (?).

The tyre heating possible issue made me think he was going to have a tough first stint but it was the exact opposite shocking start but then he just crushed everyone in sight with ease! I would like to hear more about JEV's issue and see when it started, maybe the reason for his slow opening pace compared to Dan.

Ultimately though, Dan you would have to say had a bad weekend and didn't maximise the potential of the car (shit as it still may be) by fluffing qually and the team left him out a bit too long. He wouldn't have made up much more but they should have taken the gamble of his tyres falling off at the 2nd stint. What did he have to lose? 12th place? His pace in the 2nd stint was good, but unfortunately on par with those ahead of him who were waaay up the road from stopping earlier (I think).

Strange weekend with performance see sawing between the 2 of them. Really need some more info from the team. Does anyone know where they release any info/statements? I only really check their twitter and don't get much from that.

Seems to me whenever williams struggle is when STR pick up thse points, but willy is looking to be sorted now.

Dan needed five or so laps before getting optimal heat in the tyres all practice, in quali he got to that point, started setting green sectors then hit the yellow flags induced by Karthikeyan's spin. I don't think the quali gap was representative therefore, as tyre temp issues were rife all through the grid. Some teams were taking 7 laps to get up to temp. It was just bad luck for Dan.

Vergne oddly suffered with tyre warm up issues early in the race - something Dan seems to have coped better with - that was in his press release explaining his poor race pace.

Overall reading the team press release it was a case of "Daniel did a good job and JEV retired with an issue".

First things first - can someone please tell these guys to get different coloured helmets please? Or do they have to look the same as well

Interesting (confusing..) weekend. Vergne absolutely smashed Dan in qually. Dan never even got close this time. Thought I heard it mentioned he couldn't get the tyres working quickly enough or something (although I don't know if I agree with this as they were doing plenty of laps in the runs I think. Although Dan was just ahead in the prac sessions (?).

The tyre heating possible issue made me think he was going to have a tough first stint but it was the exact opposite shocking start but then he just crushed everyone in sight with ease! I would like to hear more about JEV's issue and see when it started, maybe the reason for his slow opening pace compared to Dan.

Ultimately though, Dan you would have to say had a bad weekend and didn't maximise the potential of the car (shit as it still may be) by fluffing qually and the team left him out a bit too long. He wouldn't have made up much more but they should have taken the gamble of his tyres falling off at the 2nd stint. What did he have to lose? 12th place? His pace in the 2nd stint was good, but unfortunately on par with those ahead of him who were waaay up the road from stopping earlier (I think).

Strange weekend with performance see sawing between the 2 of them. Really need some more info from the team. Does anyone know where they release any info/statements? I only really check their twitter and don't get much from that.

Seems to me whenever williams struggle is when STR pick up thse points, but willy is looking to be sorted now.

I was a bit sleepy while watching the race, but from memory Dan was ahead of both Willy's and both Sauber's when the pit stops started? If not ahead of both Willy's, he was right in amongst them and definitely ahead of Maldonado. His Mediums held up well on the long stint, so I have my suspicions that if they'd pitted Dan around the same time the others on Mediums pitted (rather than keeping him out there for ages where I felt he was actually being held up slightly by Button for some of the key laps that would have made a long Meds run work) he could have had points.

Regardless - it was a great race from him. Some excellent passes, some of them on his own accord, and some taking advantage of the effect Button (going forwards) and Schumacher (going backwards) was having on the rest of the pack. Definitely showed in this race that he's making solid progress.

Vergne was on the same strat than Button and Hulk, but the team made him stop for inter when it started to rain again, and he stopped like 2 or 3 laps later for slick... and he even stopped a 3rd time just when the SC came back in the pit. That was really weird

Vergne was on the same strat than Button and Hulk, but the team made him stop for inter when it started to rain again, and he stopped like 2 or 3 laps later for slick... and he even stopped a 3rd time just when the SC came back in the pit. That was really weird

Oh right - I missed why JEV dropped back as so much was happening. So the team pretty much got both guy's tyre strat wrong, but luckily for Vergne he was eventually on the right tyres when it counted...

Jean-Eric Vergne - 8th: "It's good to finish eighth, however, I am not so happy with myself, because I made the decision to stay out for a long time on the dry tyres and it proved not to be the right one, costing me a lap. The team gave me the opportunity to run the race as I saw best from the cockpit and I have learned a lot of valuable lessons from today. However, if the rain had stayed away it would have been a great decision! At the restart after the Safety Car came in, I was hanging back to get a run on Glock, but as I caught up, those in front were braking hard and I ran into him and I've already apologised to him for that. My pace on the slick tyres in the damp conditions was very good and it's nice to finish the final race of the season in the points."

Well, looks like it wasn't the team's fault and it explains the stop right after the SC

Daniel Ricciardo - 13th: "The start was quite chaotic with several cars going off the track and people to avoid. I managed to make up a couple of places and my pace seemed okay. I was trying to hang on to those ahead as the conditions changed all the time. By around half race distance, we were looking in good shape, running in eighth or ninth place. More rain came after my first stop for fresh dry tyres, so I had to come in again, which obviously cost me time. In simple terms, it was a case of too many pit stops."

Have to feel super sorry for Dan again, pit stop call for slicks for no particular reason with rain possibly coming destroyed a potential 6-8th position. The strategy calls on him have been nothing but gobsmacking. JEV once again really lucky and unfortunately the points tally does not tell the true tale of who was the better driver. It would be a travesty if JEV gets the RBR drive in '14 Fingers crossed STR get there shit together next season.

I am pretty certain that STR and RBR will not be using the points tally this season as the determining factor in who came out on top. Marko might try (if the rumours are true that JEV is his favoured driver) but if true then I doubt that would change that even if Dan had ended up outscoring Vergne.

There is no doubt that Dan was the more impressive of the 2 over the course of the season and this seems to be the general concensus from what I have read/heard in media towards the end of the season in comments about the STR drivers - for instance Brundle and Crofty have made mention of it several times. At least Dan can take solace that in the Autosport Driver's Ratings tally he annihilated JEV...

Well, I'm placing myself under fire again, but would it kill you to admit JEV simply did a better job, or at least an equal job as Dan?

He got better in qualy lately and has always been as good, if not better than Dan in the races.

More points than him in his first year, whatever you might say, it counts for something. And even, EVEN if in reality, Dan has been a better driver, only the results count, just as for Caterham vs Marussia.

I reckon JEV will finish crushing Dan next year, to the great dislike of the majority of the participants on this thread.

Well, I'm placing myself under fire again, but would it kill you to admit JEV simply did a better job, or at least an equal job as Dan?

He got better in qualy lately and has always been as good, if not better than Dan in the races.

More points than him in his first year, whatever you might say, it counts for something. And even, EVEN if in reality, Dan has been a better driver, only the results count, just as for Caterham vs Marussia.

I reckon JEV will finish crushing Dan next year, to the great dislike of the majority of the participants on this thread.

TBH I think I've been more than fair on JEV - he's had some good performances and results and ended up ahead of Dan in the points so congrats to him on that. As I've said before in this thread it will be interesting to see how he goes next year having a season of F1 and experience of the tracks under his belt. Perhaps he will crush Dan next year but for this year, but with the greatest respect you are delusional if you think he did a better than or even equal job to Dan over the course of the season. Points do not tell the whole story...

16 points to 10 is a good lead for JEV in his first year. People remember things like that, not the coulda woulda shoulda stuff. If Ricciardo puts in the same performance next year he will be gone - if only because JEV isn't amazing either.