What is this about French Canadian women being degenerates?? Very strange - I know only two 'French Canadian' women who are involved with Armenians, but both of them are strong supporters of Armenian and Armenian culture. One, in fact, has been to Armenia 6 times already - she even helps run tours for other 'otars' married to Armenians! But I won't use one simple example to make a crazy generalization. I just don't get the point of your post Takuhi jan...

Vava; I wish I was making a crazy generalization but unfortunately I am not; when I was there, many Armenian Egyptian guys intermarried with French Canadian girls and you have no idea the terrible things we used to hear from either their husbands or from their in-laws. Almost all of the Armenian guys had to divorce, because the French women either used to drink too much, practically abuse their husbands and in-laws to the point that I have to write lengthy posts to you now to explain the bad things they used to do. And it isn't one or two. The majority of our boys; percentage wise about more than 50-60 percent intermarried with French Canadian women and they were all bad news. Yes very few were Ok or good, but very few. They used to tell such stories to my parents and I am not kidding.

That's exactly the problem - I don't have a perception of "them". I bet if you were to speak to the wives families, you could probably end up with a bad "perception" of Egyptian-Armenian men. You see how that works? Generalizations based upon a few anecdotes aren't necessarily facts.

That's exactly the problem - I don't have a perception of "them". I bet if you were to speak to the wives families, you could probably end up with a bad "perception" of Egyptian-Armenian men. You see how that works? Generalizations based upon a few anecdotes aren't necessarily facts.

Anyway - forgive me, this is way off topic.

The stories we've heard were hardly anecdotes and most of the ex-Armenian Egyptian families that their sons intermarried with French Canadian women were from good families. They wouldn't lie; and we have heard such things from others as well and from very good sources.

When I said stories, you took it literally, but you cease to understand that these were not some generalizations based on some non-factual facts. At the time these women unfortunately did some real crazy things; so we were told and understood. I don't wish to speak about this at length vava. But this was not an unrealistic generalization. Of course one knows more so behind closed doors. But let's face it there is bearable things and unbearable things that you hear and base your opinion on them. And the people that told us were far from making stupid and unrealistic tales. A few may be good, but when a vast majority of these marriages ended up in unhappy unions and divorces, one forms an opinion, and you cannot say that after all it's not logical to form an opinion based on the vast majority of cases.

When I read the above testimonials it brings to mind a story I saw on TV some time ago.I don’t remember the title. I was about Harry Houdini, born Erich Weiss, father a Rabbi of a Polish Jewish ancestry.The one scene that was forever etched my memory is how his bride a Christian (played by Bernadette Peters, I think) was tortured by her mother-in law, a cruelly fanatic Jew. The gentile bride was never accepted, no matter how hard she tried, going to indoctrination sessions, learning the language and the religious nonsense. One picture sticks, as how she was trying to impress her mother in law, reciting some nonsense mantra she had just leaned. The camera would alternate pictures of the anguished and tortured face of the bride to the cruelly stern and hateful face of the matriarch.

I will say no more except that ever since we spoke about “hospitality” (see my “A Christmas Story”), I have had this thought dancing I my head, so much so that I intend to initiate a thread about it.. What is hospitality? How do we measure it?Specially when it come to the so called “legendary Armenian hospitality“ and tolerance.

When I said stories, you took it literally, but you cease to understand that these were not some generalizations based on some non-factual facts. At the time these women unfortunately did some real crazy things; so we were told and understood. I don't wish to speak about this at length vava. But this was not an unrealistic generalization. Of course one knows more so behind closed doors. But let's face it there is bearable things and unbearable things that you hear and base your opinion on them. And the people that told us were far from making stupid and unrealistic tales. A few may be good, but when a vast majority of these marriages ended up in unhappy unions and divorces, one forms an opinion, and you cannot say that after all it's not logical to form an opinion based on the vast majority of cases.

Anahid - yes I certainly can say it's illogical.

One thing that my relatively limited experience has taught me is to not place ANY stock on the credibilty of "stories" told by in-laws of relationships gone bad - especially in Armenian gossip circles. Boy some of the "stories" I have heard would make you stand on your head - but rather sadly, there is very little truth them - most are concocted to "save face" in front of other family members lest their son/nephew/cousin look bad. There are motives behind these stories - and old-world families are masters of this kind of "public relations spin". Sheesh!

QUOTE(Arpa @ Feb 4 2006, 04:08 PM)

What is hospitality? How do we measure it?Specially when it come to the so called “legendary Armenian hospitality“ and tolerance.

Legendary Armenian hospitality is ever-present when welcoming otars into our households. But it morphs into some unrecognizable sort of resentment when that otar gets close - or seeks marriage into the family. There the welcome ends, the hospitality disappears and the rifts begin.

One thing that my relatively limited experience has taught me is to not place ANY stock on the credibilty of "stories" told by in-laws of relationships gone bad - especially in Armenian gossip circles. Boy some of the "stories" I have heard would make you stand on your head - but rather sadly, there is very little truth them - most are concocted to "save face" in front of other family members lest their son/nephew/cousin look bad. There are motives behind these stories - and old-world families are masters of this kind of "public relations spin". Sheesh!Legendary Armenian hospitality is ever-present when welcoming otars into our households. But it morphs into some unrecognizable sort of resentment when that otar gets close - or seeks marriage into the family. There the welcome ends, the hospitality disappears and the rifts begin.

Vava, then can we concur that this hospitality is in fact FAKE. Why don't these people (and I say this since my armenian family will never act like this) show their real face from the very beginning?

Vava, then can we concur that this hospitality is in fact FAKE. Why don't these people (and I say this since my armenian family will never act like this) show their real face from the very beginning?

Neither my Armenian family would never act like this.

As a matter of fact one of my youngest uncle's wife is an all American beautiful woman and I love her greatly. She is extremely smart and I love her heart very much as well. And the feeling between my immediate family and my American aunt is completely mutual.

Vava, then can we concur that this hospitality is in fact FAKE. Why don't these people (and I say this since my armenian family will never act like this) show their real face from the very beginning?

Allow me to clarify, lest I be misunderstood. My post was in reponse to Arpa's original post where he asks, "How many mixed marriages do you know where the “otar” converts to Armenian?" and "When is the last time that anyone converted and BECAME Armenian???" And it was under that context (otar-Armenian marriage) that I made my comments on Armenian hospitality.

When I said the Armenian hospitality comes to an end, I was perhaps being a tad cynical. My point was that many Armenian families will often welcome, love and accept their otar daughters&sons-in-law, however there exists a line that's not very often crossed. That line is where the newcomer is actually considered family - and hence Armenian. Anahit still refers to her Uncle's wife as her "AMERICAN" aunt - her family loves her, and yet she's not blood - she's still an outsider... you see what I'm trying to say?There's no malevolence there, or 'fakeness' for that matter - it's a subconcious thing likely, brought about by generations of victimisation. But that's another topic - I hope I clarified my comments a bit

QUOTE(Anahid Takouhi @ Feb 4 2006, 07:47 PM)

Neither my Armenian family would never act like this.

As a matter of fact one of my youngest uncle's wife is an all American beautiful woman and I love her greatly. She is extremely smart and I love her heart very much as well. And the feeling between my immediate family and my American aunt is completely mutual.

Anahit still refers to her Uncle's wife as her "AMERICAN" aunt - her family loves her, and yet she's not blood - she's still an outsider... you see what I'm trying to say?There's no malevolence there, or 'fakeness' for that matter - it's a subconcious thing likely, brought about by generations of victimisations.

vava; I just want to clarify that the intent of my bringing up the Americanism of my aunt was for the sole reason if I can justify my intentions is because I wanted to point out to you or whomever that though she's 'odar hars' but because she's a GEM she's loved by us very much. I don't think vava that my intention was to bring out the fact that she's 'odar'. But the mere fact that yes she's 'odar' yet she's a wonderful human being and that we recognize that and we love her for it. I sincerely believe that that was my true intention. You remember the conversation between us was about 'odar' wives, that is why.

Before 1915 Armenian Genocide there were 8 Million , Turks always hide these figures because to cover there guilty to massacre of Armenian 1915 , also Armenian church leaders are hiding this count. Turks are saying not even 1,5 million in there counts, who knows , it was impossible head counts because of all Armenian spread accross the land and hardly connections each other , I think that 8 Million population are correct.