Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Thank you for translating my word soup. Other people not to trust: Theresa May (please no-one respond with "But she's a safe pair of hands" without offering evidence); sprouts (admittedly, sprouts aren't literally, literally people, but I thought I'd throw them in anyway as they soon won't be able to be talked about again until Christmas Eve 2017).

Okay, Ian, you've proved me wrong on two counts: that sprouts can be nice, and that they can be talked about after Christmas. I cannot abide IMHO. It is a sure indicator of anything other than humility on part of the owner of the opinion. It's almost as annoying as people who start sentences with, "No offence, but..." If you're going to say something offensive, just get on and do it, and accept any negative fall-out. GSOH is another bugbear; if someone puts that in their dating profile, it tells me that they lack both imagination and originality, and, therefore, do not have a good sense of humour. Unless, of course, they're not using GSOH to mean that - WWIK (what would I know)?

Heather Styles wrote:Okay, Ian, you've proved me wrong on two counts: that sprouts can be nice, and that they can be talked about after Christmas. I cannot abide IMHO. It is a sure indicator of anything other than humility on part of the owner of the opinion. It's almost as annoying as people who start sentences with, "No offence, but..." If you're going to say something offensive, just get on and do it, and accept any negative fall-out. GSOH is another bugbear; if someone puts that in their dating profile, it tells me that they lack both imagination and originality, and, therefore, do not have a good sense of humour. Unless, of course, they're not using GSOH to mean that - WWIK (what would I know)?

I can understand that the abbreviation of IMHO can annoy some people who hate text speak.
But I only use the term so people don't think i think I am stating a fact.
The term no offence but is always going to have something offensive following it IMHO

Marc Meakin wrote:
I can understand that the abbreviation of IMHO can annoy some people who hate text speak.
But I only use the term so people don't think i think I am stating a fact.
The term no offence but is always going to have something offensive following it IMHO

It's nothing to do with it being text speak. To my mind it's pointless, as in most cases it's perfectly clear that the person writing something is expressing their opinion (as an aside, in these post-truth days, that's as good as fact to many).

Marc, no offence, but... if you had taken the trouble to read rather than just quote my words, you would have seen that it is the fake pretence of humility that I dislike about IMHO, not that it is text speak. IMO is unnecessary unless you think your reader may lack the critical faculties to distinguish between fact and opinion (it does seem that an increasing number of people are genuinely incapable of making this distinction though, TBF). Worse than people needlessly saying that their opinion is opinion is when people to pass off opinion as fact by putting the word 'Fact' before or after it, often in capital letters. I've been trying to debate recently with some knuckle-dragging Brexiters (no offence to any Brexiters who have reached the later stages of evolution, BTW) and it's been painful. Not because they have disagreed with me, but because the distinction between fact and opinion has not been understood by them. It is a sad state of affairs when people think that their opinions and those of people like Pound Shop Enoch Powell are to be valued above objective reality.

Heather, you went off on a bit of a tangent there.
Although there is an argument for pots and kettles etc.
I was taking issue with you lumping people who use IMHO with people who are usually casual racist, sexist, etc.when they spout no offence but....
I am shocked you are one of the whinging poor loser remainers rather than a Brexiter.
Guess what, not all Brexiters are knuckle draggers, racists or xenophobes.
Some are even educated, and are successful businessmen.
Though I am referring to Mr Dyson rather than myself here.

A message to all remainers btw , get over it you lost the sky won't fall, life will go on an you might even be better off....lots of offence and not buts

Of course not all Brexiters are knuckle-draggers, racists or xenophobes. I have met many intelligent Brexiters, but the ones I've been trying to debate with this week have mainly been several sandwiches short of a picnic. Yes, I'm one of the whinging poor loser remainers. I'll get over it as soon as I see anything resembling a good set of negotiating objectives. I have a feeling I could be waiting a long time.

The fundemental problem with the whole brexit thing is nobody in government really believed the brexiters would win so there wasn't a contingency plan.
Do you think Cameron would have pledged to have the referendum in his manifesto if he thought he would lose.
Even Farage..yes fair does a racist etc....conceded defeat in the wee small hours.
Moral of the story is that you should never underestimate the voting public,as every sensible American has found to their cost.
Give me Breit over being lead by Trump anyday

Language needn't prioritize concision over clarity (IMHO). Being sometimes tautological is just how we naturally communicate, and you are not clever for pointing out potential redundancies in people's writing.

My journalistic training taught me to value concise expression, but not at the expense of clarity. The challenge of any good newspaper journalist is that of finding the shortest way of saying something without potentially misleading the reader. This involves excising tautologous phrases. If a piece is headed 'Comment', or you say 'Person XYZ commented... ", then what follows is clearly opinion, and phrases such as "I think" can come out (if the reporter puts them in, a good sub editor will take them out). In the newspaper world, there is a financial reason why brevity is encouraged and favoured - wasted words cost the publisher paper and ink. In my professional opinion (IMPO?), it is at least a little bit clever to be able to cut down a 500-word piece to, say, 200 words without sacrificing meaning. Text speak also arises from the desire to save money. The person texting saves even more pennies by excluding unnecessary phrases than by abbreviating them, so again, concise expression is where the smart money is. Internet communications are often not subject to wordcount constraints, but brevity can still be a virtue, as considerations such as reader attention span still apply. I am not saying that there is never a need to announce an opinion as such, but it is usually clear from the context. The same applies to everyday conversations; people don't tend to remark, "What rubbish weather we're having, in my humble opinion!" In my experience, people who are genuinely humble about their opinions simply offer them directly, without fuss or fanfare. If you ever meet anyone who says "In my humble opinion" and you are then struck by the humility of what follows, please let me know, because I'd like to meet them, too.

The lack of a plan for Brexit is certainly a big problem, but I don't view it as the fundamental problem. The fundamental problem, as I see it, is the lack of a legal framework for Brexit. Any political plan for Brexit will fail if it cannot legally be implemented. This is why many people, including me, believe that Theresa May would be foolish to trigger Article 50 as soon as March this year. If a success is to be made of Brexit (to me, that still sounds like trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear, but let's roll with the idea that Brexit could be a success), the government needs to allow itself and Parliament as much preparation time as possible. Rome was not built in a day. Which is worse, Brexit or Trump? Only time will tell. At the moment I'm thinking probably Brexit, on the basis that at least Trump can be voted out in four years' time.

Probably not tautology, but some of the phrases people say that can annoy are, 'you know ' and He turned round and said ( I always imagine someone in a swivel chair ).
Also football ones like ' early doors '

I plead technical incompetence. I love paragraph breaks, but didn't realise they were possible using this smartphone. Oh look, it's that button there. Phew.

I didn't make up the term 'Brexit' and I agree, it's naff, partly because 'Britain' is a nebulous term and there is no consensus about whether or not it includes Northern Ireland. It will be 'UK exit' from me from now on. What's wrong with overlapping forum threads? Politics has cropped up in the crisps thread, for example, and the politics thread has veered into ethics. What next, an ethics thread where talking about crisps is a no-no?

I didn't make up the term 'Brexit' and I agree, it's naff, partly because 'Britain' is a nebulous term and there is no consensus about whether or not it includes Northern Ireland. It will be 'UK exit' from me from now on. What's wrong with overlapping forum threads? Politics has cropped up in the crisps thread, for example, and the politics thread has veered into ethics. What next, an ethics thread where talking about crisps is a no-no?

Actually I probably would include people who don't think you can post off topic. But having said that I did think "Oh no - not this again!"

Gavin Chipper wrote:People who insist that dates, rather than being a fruit in their own right, are dried plums, even when you point out how strange it is that the stone completely changes shape in the drying process.

I'm confused. What is the stone changing shape supposed to indicate? Why not just point out that they come form different plants?

Gavin Chipper wrote:People who insist that dates, rather than being a fruit in their own right, are dried plums, even when you point out how strange it is that the stone completely changes shape in the drying process.

I'm confused. What is the stone changing shape supposed to indicate? Why not just point out that they come form different plants?

The fact that plums and dates have different shaped stones is a good proof that they are different things without having to refer to a source. It's a clear indicator that they are completely different things.

Sayig that they come from different plants is just another way of saying "I'm right and you're wrong". If they didn't believe you to start with, telling them about the plants is unlikely to change things.

Gavin Chipper wrote:People who insist that dates, rather than being a fruit in their own right, are dried plums, even when you point out how strange it is that the stone completely changes shape in the drying process.

I always thought that prunes were dried plums? Dates aren't related at all, are they?

Who are these people that insist on such a thing? NAME AND SHAME THEM.

Gavin Chipper wrote:People who insist that dates, rather than being a fruit in their own right, are dried plums, even when you point out how strange it is that the stone completely changes shape in the drying process.

I always thought that prunes were dried plums? Dates aren't related at all, are they?

Who are these people that insist on such a thing? NAME AND SHAME THEM.

Prunes are dried plums, yes. But I'm not sure about the relatedness between plums and dates. Probably very distant though.

I can't actually remember who these people are. But it's happened. And it's weird.

People who order food and then later have no clue what they've ordered and either try to claim someone else's food or when their own food arrives sit there for half an hour while the waiter/waitress is shouting out to find out ordered it.

People who order food and then later have no clue what they've ordered and either try to claim someone else's food or when their own food arrives sit there for half an hour while the waiter/waitress is shouting out to find out ordered it.

That sounds alcohol related.
I can tolerate inebriated people in most situations except restaurants

People who order food and then later have no clue what they've ordered and either try to claim someone else's food or when their own food arrives sit there for half an hour while the waiter/waitress is shouting out to find out ordered it.

People who order food and then later have no clue what they've ordered and either try to claim someone else's food or when their own food arrives sit there for half an hour while the waiter/waitress is shouting out to find out ordered it.

We want names Gevin.

James Laverty did the second one where he was oblivious to his food arriving.

I forgot what I ordered for about two seconds and Gev exploded with rage. Wildly overreacted. PEOPLE YOU SHOULDN'T TRUST - People who wildly overreact at other people very briefly forgetting whether they ordered gammon steak or not.

But yeah, the Laverty incident was an abomination.

Eoin Monaghan wrote:
He may not be liked on here, but you have to give some credit to Mark

People who think it's acceptable to go around without socks on (with or without shoes/slippers).
People who don't have an obvious hand towel in the bog room of their house/flat so that when visitors use it, they're left wondering which person's bath towel to use.

People who think it's acceptable to go around without socks on (with or without shoes/slippers).
People who don't have an obvious hand towel in the bog room of their house/flat so that when visitors use it, they're left wondering which person's bath towel to use.