Okay. How many 89 Sis did they sell? How many Civic Wagons did they sell? -------------------------------------

Hmmm...I don't know. Must have been a bunch of them. I knew plenty of people back then who had Civic Sis, Civic Wagons, (even knew of a couple of AWDs, which were kinda silly in south Georgia, IMO), and a tons of CRX Sis, which was another great small hatch.

Honda sells 3-5K Elements each month. How many Civic hatches do they sell?

First year, 2002, Honda imported 15,000 Si's, they did not sell well. 2003, 2004, 2005 were all close 7,500-8,000/year.

By the way, Si i snot overpriced if you haggle at the right time. I got my 2002 Si in January of 2003 with 8 miles on the odo for $14,500 and 1.9% APR. I actually came in to test drive the Element, but the fact that 5 spd was not available and the one I drove felt top heavy drove me away from it. The sales man suggested I drive the Si. I did and fell in love. I was actually cross shopping Matrix/Vibe and Element, and ended up with Civic Si, Matrix Coupe as I call it. If you put Si and Matrix side by side, they are very similar except the 2 doors missing from the Civic. But, the price was right on the Civic.

Now that Honda finally has the 5 spd Element with painted panels from factory, I have been looking at it again. It is still top heavy, but I guess I can slow down a bit, maybe. Maybe not, and just get a TSX.

By the way, Si i snot overpriced if you haggle at the right time. I got my 2002 Si in January of 2003 with 8 miles on the odo for $14,500 and 1.9% APR. -----------------------------------------I agree completely with that statement.

However...

When it first came out, MSRP was around 20K and dealers were putting 3K ADM on them. I think this PO'd a number of buyers (I was in the market) who decided they would NEVER buy one after that. I think that hurt Si sales more than anything.

I think the ADM practice has created a backlash against a number of new cars.

Unfortunatley, if someone is "not smart enough" to realize that ADM will go away if they stay away from buying the car deserve all they get for falling for that. I though that even at MSRP the Si was on the high edge of pricing. Who in their right mind would pay $20K for a Civic. This is what I say to people who scream about the Type R not being available here. Are they willing to pay $25K for a Civic with no air conditioner, no radio, and no sunroof?

If I were to buy a $25K car, I would look into TSX or IS300.

Honda dealers are not as bad as some Ford, and GM dealers. Ford Thunderbird had a $10K ADM (in one case there was a $20K ADM), and now it is being discontinued for not selling.Chevy SSR had a $6000 ADM.

Honda dealers are not as bad as some Ford, and GM dealers. Ford Thunderbird had a $10K ADM (in one case there was a $20K ADM), and now it is being discontinued for not selling. Chevy SSR had a $6000 ADM. ---------------------------------------

Those were the two in particular that I was thinking about. I believe there is a backlash happening in such practices.

You're right about the Type R Civic as well. If you really, truly wanted one, its easy to build your own. In retrospect, I should have done something similar when the engine started going in my old Si. Hindsight....

I'm really pleased with the Civic overall, but I'm curious as to why Honda doesn't offer the 2 door coupe in a performance model? I don't care for the looks of the Si model, and there's really no reason Honda couldn't make a high performance version of the 2 door coupe. Could you imagine how much fun this car would be to drive with the RSX's 200 hp 2 liter engine? They can't honestly think this car wouldn't sell, unless they priced it too high. I could see this car selling like hot cakes at around the $16K-$17K price range. 127 hp just isn't enough for performance minded drivers.

i hate to advertise toyota in a honda forum, but if you're looking for a small hatchback that is realtively cheap, why dont you look at the new Toyota Yaris. I test-drove it and i absolutely cant wait to buy it

Three good reasons to buy a Civic over the Yaris. Civic is much roomier.Civic gets better mileage on the highway. Much better city & highway if you buy the hybrid.And the Yaris is UGLY.....You should really go drive the Civic before you buy the Yaris. It is an entry level vehicle that may not last till you are done making the payments. If you are paying cash no big deal.

Your profile tells me when you joined and the last few threads you posted in. I have not sat in a Yaris. I did sit in the Xb Scion and was impressed with the headroom in front and back. You are right the headroom in both the Civic and Accord is marginal. My head touches in the Accords I have sat in. That is unacceptable.

Now that Honda will be making Civics in Indiana, do you think they will make the Civic Hybrid there? How about some other kind of Civics--like a 4 door hatch--to go up against the Mazda 3 (I like that car) and Toyota Matrix?

And, with upcoming space in Ohio where Civics were made (once the IN plant comes online), what will be built there?

Chris from MI who LOVES his 06 LX Civic and his wife's 06 Subie Forester

It wasn't OPEC. Congress killed the CRX, and every other lightweight, fuel efficient car, by legislating airbags, ABS, side impact beams, and every other safety device they could think of.

This coincided with an explosion in consumer buying power during the 1990s, which created a demand for more luxury features (meaning more weight), even on traditional economy cars. Honda Civics and Ford Escorts suddenly offered power windows, power seats, cruise control, etc.

Now cars weigh 50% more than they used to, and get worse fuel economy as a result. But on the bright side, they are safer, and more comfortable to drive..

I pulled out an old news paper add from the 80's where a used CRX is advertised.

The owner claims to get 60 mpg!

You're telling me that this 1.3 litre engine couldn't get say 40 mpg with today's safety standards? There have been trade offs with using Aluminum in the frame, so I'm not sure I buy your argument that it's merely safety standards killing us in fuel effeciency. I mean, how much does an airbag weigh? or a side beam in the door? It all doesn't add up to me.

An electric window doesn't weigh much more than one you have to manually crank.

It doesn't take carbon fibre to reduce the weight of a vehicle that was built in the 80's.

The 60 mpg claim is bogus. The old CRX (the super-efficient model HF) got 37/47 mpg. That's from the EPA website fueleconomy.gov which lists all makes and models back to the early 80s.

37/47 is certainly good, but as you said, that was from a 1.3 litre engine propelling a 1700 lb. car. Today's Honda Civic has a 1.8 litre engine propelling a 2600 lb. car. It gets 26/34 mpg, which is not bad for 50% more engine displacement and 50% more weight.

and I also wonder how today's civic would perform with a 1.3 ltre engine?

17 years have gone by and all I've seen is a race for greater horsepower.- yes cars are safer and more plush

Honda and Toyota have always offered a great 4 cyl option with the option of upgrading to the ample if not excessive 6 cyl because everyone wanted to go 0-60 in under 10 seconds. Now I wonder if they might offer the lower powered higher fuel economy model?

"I also wonder how today's civic would perform with a 1.3 ltre engine?"

I can answer that. It performs a little slow, but okay.

I have a Civic Hybrid, which uses a 1.3 litre gasoline engine along with a 20 hp electric motor. The engine shuts off automatically when the car stops, and the hybrid battery keeps the electric system going while the engine is off.

On a hot summer day, waiting at a railroad crossing for a train to pass, the A/C can run down that battery in about 4 minutes. When that happens, the electric motor assist ceases, and the car is powered only by the 1.3 litre engine until the battery recharges itself.

It runs fine in that condition, but it's a bit slow -- kind of like a compact car from the early 80s.

Those were the old EPA numbers. The revised ones are 37/47. The fueleconomy.gov link you provided actually lists the '89 CRX HF twice -- once with the old ratings, and once with the new ones.

The old numbers were based on a maximum speed of 55 mph, a maximum rate of acceleration of 3 mph per second, and no air conditioning use, or stop-and-go traffic. That same testing method gave the Toyota Prius numbers of 51 city and 60 hwy until this year. Now the Prius and every other car gets a "real world" test. Consequently, all EPA numbers have dropped, including the Prius to 48/45.

"why Honda doesn''t replicate this car with an airbag, abs and side impact beams?"

The Honda Insight two-seater hybrid was nearly identical to the old CRX. They discontinued that model a few years ago in favor of the Civic Hybrid.

However, they'll release the new CRZ either next year or in 2010. It's supposed to replicate the looks and efficiency of the Insight, but offer more day-to-day practicality.