If a Christian Church is involved with public monies liberals scream about separation of Church & State...

Yet is a Muslim Church gets public financing they are silent... More hypocrisy!!!

Grants for Building Churches
By Christine Switzer, eHow Contributor
updated: September 11, 2009

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Though not common, grants for building churches do exist. Depending on the organization, these grants may identified as capital-project grants, indicating that they are specifically for the construction, improvement or repair of a church's physical property. Grant seekers should not confine their research to online resources when searching for potential grants, as many local libraries, chambers of commerce and private organizations may have grant information as well.

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Government Grants
Though the federal government does not provide grant funds solely for the construction of a church building, you can find government grants designated for religious and charitable organizations that seek to meet specific needs in local communities. For example, if part of your capital project includes the construction of a building that will be used to help feed the homeless or to house welfare-to-work families, then you may qualify for a government grant for that particular building.

That is such a provocative act... and the justification for it giving by that pastor to give a message to radical Islam is rediculous... radical islamists, although also offended, rub their hands in gleeful anticipation knowing fully well that it will be an unbelievable big PR-win for them, a present, granting them numerous new recruits and sympathisers... while seriously pushing away moderate muslims.

I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?

That is such a provocative act... and the justification for it giving by that pastor to give a message to radical Islam is rediculous... radical islamists, although also offended, rub their hands in gleeful anticipation knowing fully well that it will be an unbelievable big PR-win for them, a present, granting them numerous new recruits and sympathisers... while seriously pushing away moderate muslims.

EXACTLY.

When people blow up buildings and kill people on public transport, the aim is to radicalise Muslims.

The aim isn't just to kill strangers. It's to provoke survivors into stupid shit like this. This is a victory.

Burning the Qur'an is perfect. Good going, you total pussies. You might as well just have a money drive and send fifty thousand dollars to some back room in Allahabad. What total, total dicks.

If you're defending the burning of these Qur'ans then I really underestimated you.

Understanding that you're not, because you're not such a despicable, small person:

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Originally Posted by jazzguru

Why no concern when copies of the Book of Mormon are dragged in the street and burned in front of LDS Temples? Why no concern when Christians are mocked and ridiculed in political cartoons?

When have the Books of Mormon been dragged and burned anywhere? I've never, ever heard of this happening. Not to say that it hasn't. But I've never heard of this happening. I'm sure if Christian fundamentalists did this, I'd object (any chance, you know me. )

But secondly. Er... context. Come on.

This isn't happening against a background of Mormon fundamentalists threatening terrorist actions against my country. Politically radicalised Mormons aren't delighted at the prospect of recruiting more angry Mormons to their cause.

The American military hasn't invaded two Mormon-majority states and killed many, many thousands of Mormons in response to Mormon fundamentalists killing thousands of American, Spanish, English and Ugandan people recently.

And if you're comparing the burning of the Qur'an to the mockery of Christians in political cartoons, then you don't understand the insult. This a calculated act of provocation that hits religious people in the most sensitive spot possible. You don't even put your feet up on your knee if they end up facing that book. "That is retarded", you may say, and you may be correct. But it doesn't change the fact that burning that book is provocative and it's going to make any kind of progress more difficult for those of us who just demand the right to live in peace.

If you want to defend their right to do it then... well, we're not going to be friends anymore.

When have the Books of Mormon been dragged and burned anywhere? I've never, ever heard of this happening. Not to say that it hasn't. But I've never heard of this happening. I'm sure if Christian fundamentalists did this, I'd object (any chance, you know me. )

While I am against this Qur'an burning, I believe illegally invading and occupying nations that happen to be predominantly Muslim and killing civilians there has unnecessarily put our troops in harm's way to a much greater degree.

Of course, Obama was against the wars before he was for them, so that makes it all better.

While I am against this Qur'an burning, I believe illegally invading and occupying nations that happen to be predominantly Muslim and killing civilians there has unnecessarily put our troops in harm's way to a much greater degree.

Of course, Obama was against the wars before he was for them, so that makes it all better.

While I am against this Qur'an burning, I believe illegally invading and occupying nations that happen to be predominantly Muslim and killing civilians there has unnecessarily put our troops in harm's way to a much greater degree.

Of course, Obama was against the wars before he was for them, so that makes it all better.

God, don't need to tell me. I went on all the marches against George Bush's stupid, dangerous wars.

Of course they have a right to burn the Qur'an, just as people have the right to burn the American flag.

I don't agree with or condone either action, but they clearly have a Constitutional right to do so.

Good post... those among us that are Christians find the Quran burning distasteful; no religious text should be burned from any religion. So too, those among us that are American find burning the American flag distasteful. No flag of any nation should be burned. But both actions are cited as examples of protected speech. So who is coming to the defense of those practicing Quran burning? The same folks that practice flag burning? Hardly. Both of these examples of what are called protected speech under the Constitution but that does not mean it is wise to do either. Like the Ground Zero mosque, simply because there is a right to do so doesn't mean it is wise to do so.

God, don't need to tell me. I went on all the marches against George Bush's stupid, dangerous wars.

Good one!

And for the record the Quran burning has got to be one of the most idiotic acts I've ever heard of. What's next burning people? It kind of reminds me of another group who used to wear hoods and burn crosses.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination

In an opinion piece published in Wednesday's New York Times newspaper, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf said the debate about the center reflects American values, including "recognition of the rights of others, tolerance and freedom of worship."

He also noted the support of President Barack Obama and New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, saying their statements send a "powerful message about what America stands for."

Rauf said the community center will have separate prayer spaces for Muslims, Christians, Jews and those of other faiths.

It will also have a multifaith memorial to the victims of the September 11, 2001 attacks.

Once you remove the hysteria, people will see that the building of the Park 51 Islamic Cultural Center is a good thing and there is no reason to oppose its construction.

無心The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey

Donald Trump is offering to buy out one of the major investors in the real estate partnership that controls the site near Ground Zero where a Muslim group wants to build a 13-story Islamic cultural center.

In a letter released Thursday by Mr. Trump's publicist, the real estate investor informed Hisham Elzanaty, a major investor in the Islamic center, known as Park51, that he would buy his stake in the Lower Manhattan building for 25% more than whatever he paid. Mr. Trump wrote that he's making the offer not because he thinks the location is spectacular but because it would end "a very serious, inflammatory, and highly divisive situation."

It's unclear whether Mr. Elzanaty, an Egyptian-born Long Island resident, has total control over the property, which is owned by an eight-member investment group managed by Soho Properties.

And for the record the Quran burning has got to be one of the most idiotic acts I've ever heard of. What's next burning people? It kind of reminds me of another group who used to wear hoods and burn crosses.

Why does no-one ever mention the Muslims killed on 9/11 ? I think the numbers are unknown but there were certainly hundreds.

If these Muslims were victims just like everyone else, and if they were not the kind of people who would fly planes into buildings then surely they are the same as anyone else? And surely that means there is no problem with the cultural centre UNLESS the organizers are the sort of people who fly planes into buildings themselves?

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Why does no-one ever mention the Muslims killed on 9/11 ? I think the numbers are unknown but there were certainly hundreds.

If these Muslims were victims just like everyone else, and if they were not the kind of people who would fly planes into buildings then surely they are the same as anyone else? And surely that means there is no problem with the cultural centre UNLESS the organizers are the sort of people who fly planes into buildings themselves?

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Inna li-lahi wa inna li-layhi raja'un.
From Allah we come, and to Him is our return.

List of some of the 9/11 victims of the Muslim faith @

One of the Heros of 9/11

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Imagine being the family of Salman Hamdani. The 23-year-old New York City police cadet was a part-time ambulance driver, incoming medical student, and devout Muslim. When he disappeared on September 11, law enforcement officials came to his family, seeking him for questioning in relation to the terrorist attacks. They allegedly believed he was somehow involved. His whereabouts were undetermined for over six months, until his remains were finally identified. He was found near the North Tower, with his EMT medical bag beside him, presumably doing everything he could to help those in need. His family could finally rest, knowing that he died the hero they always knew him to be

Why does no-one ever mention the Muslims killed on 9/11 ? I think the numbers are unknown but there were certainly hundreds.

If these Muslims were victims just like everyone else, and if they were not the kind of people who would fly planes into buildings then surely they are the same as anyone else? And surely that means there is no problem with the cultural centre UNLESS the organizers are the sort of people who fly planes into buildings themselves?

Speaking at the Pentagon, President Barack Obama alluded to the controversy over the mosque and a Florida pastor's threat, later rescinded, to burn copies of the Quran. Obama made it clear that the U.S. is not at war with Islam and called the al-Qaida attackers "a sorry band of men" who perverted religion.

"We will not give in to their hatred," Obama said. "As Americans, we will not or ever be at war with Islam."

Elizabeth Meehan, a 51-year-old Christian from Saratoga, N.Y., rode in by bus from her home 180 miles away.

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"I'm really fearful of all of the hate that's going on in our country. People in one brand of Christianity are coming out against other faiths, and I find that so sad," she said. "Muslims are fellow Americans; they should have the right to worship in America just like anyone else."

Speaking at the Pentagon, President Barack Obama alluded to the controversy over the mosque — and a Florida pastor's threat, later rescinded, to burn copies of the Quran. Obama made it clear that the U.S. is not at war with Islam and called the al-Qaida attackers "a sorry band of men" who perverted religion.

"We will not give in to their hatred," Obama said. "As Americans, we will not or ever be at war with Islam."

Either if the US is at war against Islam, or if the US is not at war with Islam, any president would publicly claim the latter, for obvious reasons. What he says *PRIVATELY* to his (AIPAC, JINSA, AEI, etc etc) etc. advisors and handlers is undoubtedly a different ball of wax.

From what has happened in the last 9 years, it seems quite patently obvious that the US IS at war with Islam, especially when one considers that many of the most influential policy-makers in DC, both with the current and previous administrations, have a sizable contingent of Islamophobes.

Its kinda plain, but politically incorrect to admit.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow

I do, from maybe 10 years ago when I first started posting here. He's probably in one of the hundreds of CIA rendition camps scattered all over the planet.... \

He was a super nutcase and a few months before 9/11 he started posting, "look out, something big is going to happen soon." And then the AI IRC chatroom was taken over by people posting in Arabic. I'm not lying.

He was a super nutcase and a few months before 9/11 he started posting, "look out, something big is going to happen soon." And then the AI IRC chatroom was taken over by people posting in Arabic. I'm not lying.

New York City and several other local governments have shown real leadership on this issue that should be adopted broadly, said Alison Parker, US program director at Human Rights Watch. Governments at all levels need to respect the right to freedom of religion.

The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which the US ratified in 1992, requires all government entities at the national and local level to uphold its provisions. The treaty states that everyone has the right to religious beliefs, and the freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest those beliefs in worship, observance, practice, and teaching.

It is important for government officials to come to the defense of individuals whose efforts to practice their faith come under attack, Parker said. Acts of hatred and intolerance directed against Muslims in the United States show the need for a more concerted effort by government officials to address religious intolerance in their communities.

New York Officials who have stepped up to support the Park 51 Islamic Cultural Center/Mosque:

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Mr. Cuomo, who is clearly familiar with the First Amendment, has commendably defended the right of the mosques sponsors to build wherever they like. What are we about, he recently asked, if not religious

"I applaud my potential opponent in the race for Attorney General, Dan Donovan, for siding with his supporter Mayor Bloomberg and resisting the attempt by Rick Lazio to politicize the Park51 project in Lower Manhattan," Schneiderman said in an emailed statement.

Breaking an awkward silence on the matter of the Ground Zero Mosque over the past weeks, at least a small number of New York's House and Senate delegation have pivoted off Michael Bloombergs instantly historic pro-mosque speech on Aug. 3 to voice their own support of the project.

Of 12 House members whose districts are mostly or entirely in New York City, and the state's two Senators, three have praised Bloomberg's speech and another has issued a statement supporting a Landmarks Preservation Commission decision to deny landmark status to a building the mosque is supposed to replace without mentioning the mayor's speech. One has issued a noncommittal statement. And nine have balked, entirely: one no-comment and eight non-responses to requests for comment.

Bloomberg, a registered independent who was first elected as a Republican, as the most vocal elected defender of Cordoba Houses legal right to exist. (Whatever you may think of the proposed mosque and community center, lost in the heat of the debate has been a basic question: Should government attempt to deny private citizens the right to build a house of worship on private property based on their particular religion? That may happen in other countries, but we should never allow it to happen here.

He was a super nutcase and a few months before 9/11 he started posting, "look out, something big is going to happen soon." And then the AI IRC chatroom was taken over by people posting in Arabic. I'm not lying.

Do the archives still exist from the old A.I.? It should have been possible to identify the poster's ISP, even if just for "banning" purposes by the moderators.

Something big is going to happen soon? Hmmmm... and they claim that it was a total surprise... yet some bozo posting in a "boutique bulletin board" seemed to have the heads up. Mind you, there's plenty of people who speak Arabic, and they are not necessarily aligned with Arab or Muslim causes.. especially if they are spreading messages like that!

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow

Do the archives still exist from the old A.I.? It should have been possible to identify the poster's ISP, even if just for "banning" purposes by the moderators.

Something big is going to happen soon? Hmmmm... and they claim that it was a total surprise... yet some bozo posting in a "boutique bulletin board" seemed to have the heads up. Mind you, there's plenty of people who speak Arabic, and they are not necessarily aligned with Arab or Muslim causes.. especially if they are spreading messages like that!

It doesn't necessarily point to a conspiracy as such - there is a lot of evidence of 'fore-shadowing' the 911 tragedy in popular culture...it seems it was a psychic meme that was out there to be picked up on for quite some time prior to the event.

Perhaps the most famous 'fore-shadowing' is the album cover for the band Coup's album released some time before 9/11.

Or even the cover of a US Dept of justice report, again prior to 9/11.

Likewise an Egyptian calendar for September 2001 had a picture of a crashing plane and the Manhattan skyline;

None of these, imo, were 'in on' any conspiracy but somehow picked up on things that were going to happen...

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

As far as I know, everything pre-blackout was lost irrecoverably, except the handful of cosmetic pages that might have been archived by third parties such as wayback, or later, google. And there would have never been a record of what was posted in the chatroom.

"We are exploring all options as we speak right now...working through what will be a solution that will resolve this problem," Abdul Rauf said in an appearance at the Council on Foreign Relations. "Everything is on the table."

At the same time, he said, it was "disingenuous" of those who oppose the planned location of the center to claim it is "hallowed ground" because of the lives that were lost in the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center towers by Muslim extremists. "There is a strip joint around the corner, betting parlors," Abdul Rauf said. "It is hallowed in one sense, but it doesn't add up. Let's clarify that misperception."

If there is any reason why there is a need for the Park 51 Islamic Cultural Center and Mosque to be built where it is planned is to allow an open dialogue and understanding between all cultures and religions in the United States. If the opponents are allowed to persuade the moving of the site, it will send a wrong message that the US is intolerant to those of the Muslim faith.

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The planned center, he said, was an important part of his efforts to raise the voices of what he said were "99.9 percent of Muslims in the world" who find terrorism "absolutely abhorent." "I need a space, I want a space where the voice of the moderates can be amplified. It's not good enough to teach here no students will hear you."

He said the planned center "will be a place for all faiths to come together as partners, stakeholders in mutual respect. It will bring honor to the city of New York and to American Muslims. The world is watching," he said. "I offer you my pledge, we will live up to our ideals."

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has offered as much assurances as possible to assure that the center will be open to all. I think that the argument whether he has the right to build the center at the location is moot. It is time that the question of whether it should be built at the site is put to rest and allow the construction to begin.

無心The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey

But if he unilaterally withdrew without a victory, he'd be a defeatist liberal commie peace-nick. So, basically a lose/lose situation for Obama. Which would you have preferred him to do, since you're against the expansion, right?

Bush broke it, Obama's (and probably the next administration if he doesn't get re-elected, the way things are going) left with the bill.

You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James LovelockThe Story of Stuff

But if he unilaterally withdrew without a victory, he'd be a defeatist liberal commie peace-nick. So, basically a lose/lose situation for Obama. Which would you have preferred him to do, since you're against the expansion, right?

Bush broke it, Obama's (and probably the next administration if he doesn't get re-elected, the way things are going) left with the bill.

The current economic woes we are seeing now were decades in the making. Bush certainly added to the problem, but you can't pin the blame solely on him or Obama.