Thank you for accepting me in that dedicated forum to Berserk, a very great manga. And that is an euphemism.

I am not a native English speaker, so few syntax errors will be found through my post. I apologise for any inconveniences during reading.

I searched through the forum and found that the controversial topic of Casca feeling pleasure while being raped by Femto (And it sounds already a bit like an oxymoron or a contradiction) was already discussed but...many answers were (with all my respect) quite oriented in a kind of funny way not to say naïve.

Since some people here have access to exclusive material, maybe they can answer in a more appropriate way.

The post might be a bit long but I fear that shorter would betray what I want to ask or lack the depth that matter could have.

Reader of the manga, I couldn't avoid to notice that with the style, the storyboard and the pictures that it could seem like Casca is feeling pleasure during that quite traumatic moment (To say the least, I am not a big fan of rape scenes in any media).

I would like to avoid the very complex approach of: Could a woman feel pleasure while being forced / raped? Approach that I could summarise in few lines:

- It can happen (some victims mentioned that fact)- Truthful information about the topic are very hard to find since they could be used to diminish the traumatic effects of rape for the victim and somehow excuse the rapists- It usually makes things even worst in the aftermath for the victims which feel guilty and usually can't understand why and how their body could betray them.- When pleasure for victims of rape is mentioned, it just increase the shunning and despise from society towards them (often, especially from their own partner)- Sexologists think it could be a adaptive / defensive reaction of the body to avoid further physical damages in a sensitive part of the body or just a response to physical sexual stimulation- Psychologists think it could be a adaptive / defensive reaction of the mind to avoid further physical damages in a sensitive part of the body or linked to hidden desires (we say it is complex)- In fact nobody knows exactly why it happens but specialists know that the wrong people will use any theories in their favour.- A rape is a rape, it shouldn't be done on anyone (beside rapists). Period

Maybe the case of Casca could be related to one the lines above? But until now, there is nothing that could point out how exactly and which array of emotions Casca felt in Femto's arms. We can just see that she went amnesic under the shock and that she kept a bad memory of the rape attempt by the apostles but not really anything about Femto himself. In fact to the despair of Guts, she is even drawn by the new Griffith when he appears in front of her.

My approach is more about: Didn't Miura just use a classic trope / cliché of hentai and Japanese erotic or pornographic material?

Cliché which is based on Japanese male conception of the female desire and quite exist in many different Japanese media (Some Hokusai's works show something like that). Somehow in the cultural background of japan, women are weak. Hence why strong women characters are a fantasy which arouse Japanese male consumers. Since they can like and possess this strong female character without facing the reality of such encounter. Warning: I did not say that Japanese women are weak. That Japanese cultural touch, pure sexism in favour of men can be seen in many aspect of the Japanese life. In Japanese erotic and porn, it is translated by the fact that girls / women are weak in front of the male reproductive organ and will submit by nature to any phallus introduced to them (no pun intended) whatever they wanted it or not. If it seems not that different from Western porn, Japanese will go further to the point that even a reluctant girl will by nature submit and feel pleasure to any sexual attention given to her by whoever or whatever it is. To put it simply, in Japanese male traditional mind, a woman can't avoid to feel pleasure (lust) during sex whatever it is forced (rape) or desired (love) and hence are shameful creatures by natures.

So did Miura just used that view on Japanese women with his treatment of Casca during her rape by Femto? And if such, would it be linked to some of the theories about Casca still having a remain of mixed emotions for Griffith until that point (and after)?

I have to say, for me it could change the way I can see the suffering of Guts. If seeing his beloved raped in front of his eyes wasn't enough, Guts would have to deal with the fact he witnessed Casca having pleasure with Femto (Fact which would suddenly blur the line between a rape and a kind of consensual sexual intercourse between two persons in lust...especially towards the end when obviously Casca feels Femto ejaculating in her and she is depicted having a orgasm or sort of). In this line, the hatred, despair and torments of Guts could be even more terrible...especially when he can see later the simple minded Casca drawn to Griffith or heard some lines from Skullknight about the fact that maybe turning back to normal is maybe not what she wants (that line is still ambiguous).No need to remind that whatever Casca felt real for Guts before the eclipse, she was somehow quite lost in front of the princess and in front of the disabled Griffith.

If Miura just used the classic Japanese cliché of women just enjoying sex whatever is it a terrible rape (truism attack) or not without link to Casca's feelings for Griffith or / and Griffith's power to turn Casca in lust...In this case...man...it is a terrible fail (It happens to many contemporary masterpieces anyway...no big deal) as really rape is not all vaginal lubrification, lusty eyes, swollen aroused lips and a girl actively going for it as shown in those chapters.

Did Miura talk about those scene and if he did, what were his intentions then?

The same kind of Japanese cliché about women and rape can be seen with the Black dog during his first apparition having sex with women who seem to all enjoy him.

PS: I may add, in the same line, why Guts in the first pages of the manga has sex with the female apostle (murderer of Corkus) before killing her? Was is a reference to Wicked City (from Kawajiri) or Conan the Barbarian with Arnold Schwarzenegger? If not it could go a bit against what we know of the character and sex. Of course, Guts is not a virgin as somehow it is shown he knows how to do with a girl but not much is said about his private life (Which actually I appreciate...an harem Berserk would feel silly in my humble opinion)

Note that I didn't ask if she enjoyed but if she had pleasure which can be quite different regarding the matter but let's say it is a semantic detail.

Now, why those scenes look so ambiguous with a depiction of a rape compared to let's say the directing for such scenes in the movie Irreversible from Gaspard Noé (2002) or The City of God (2002), remains until now a mystery? It is quite treated much more like any hentai found in the market regarding the victim. It is not like Berserk has escaped all the clichés typical of shonen / seinen manga anyway.

So did Miura apply his cultural filter or has some other explanation for the graphic treatment of Casca?

Did Miura mentioned anything about that part of the manga that I could access too or does the official translation or original text give a different view on what is happening?

It seems you are very well documented so what are your sources? Or is it guts feeling (no pun intended) or just your own opinion from what you read in those scenes?

Casca looked like she was unconscious when Femto first gets ahold of her. It appears to me that she is exhausted both mentally and physically at this point from everything she's already been through and she looks delirious. It's very clear to me that this is portrayed as Femto taking advantage of a helpless human who can't stop him from doing whatever he is going to do. Casca is as helpless in this situation as Guts was as a child when an adult man raped him. She is surrounded by monsters, being raped by a monster, with the man she loves being pinned down by more monsters and witnessing the entire thing. Call me crazy, but it just doesn't sound like an ideal situation for a pleasurable time to me. Casca looks distressed, in pain, and horrified that Guts is seeing this happening to her. It's truly the ultimate betrayal of her loyalty and esteem for Griffith that he coldly uses her as nothing but a means to hurt Guts. Casca is the one being raped, but it's Guts that Griffith wants to harm. It isn't even about her and that makes it so much more horrible somehow. This scene is all about Femto's cruel betrayal of both Guts and Casca and is meant to show that painful violation of their friendship, not to be some hentai scene, at least that's how I see it.

As for Wyald and the women that are with him when he is first introduced, it's just meant to show what over the top debauchery Wyald is into. The young girl that Wyald rapes in the village certainly doesn't seem to be feeling any pleasure. Princess Charlotte doesn't just succumb to her father raping her either.

I really think that Miura has more respect for his characters as well as for readers than to fall into some cliché like the one you mentioned.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 11:18:43 PM by JMP »

Logged

A good sword, even if it rusts and dulls, has good steel that never rusts left over in the wick. That steel's the ultimate steel. Even if it cracks, if you return it to the fire, it's sure to be reborn. - Godot

I am not a native English speaker, so few syntax errors will be found through my post. I apologise for any inconveniences during reading.

Neither am I, so please keep it in mind.

Quote

Reader of the manga, I couldn't avoid to notice that with the style, the storyboard and the pictures that it could seem like Casca is feeling pleasure during that quite traumatic moment (To say the least, I am not a big fan of rape scenes in any media).

I would like to avoid the very complex approach of: Could a woman feel pleasure while being forced / raped? Approach that I could summarise in few lines:

- It can happen (some victims mentioned that fact)- Truthful information about the topic are very hard to find since they could be used to diminish the traumatic effects of rape for the victim and somehow excuse the rapists- It usually makes things even worst in the aftermath for the victims which feel guilty and usually can't understand why and how their body could betray them.- When pleasure for victims of rape is mentioned, it just increase the shunning and despise from society towards them (often, especially from their own partner)- Sexologists think it could be a adaptive / defensive reaction of the body to avoid further physical damages in a sensitive part of the body or just a response to physical sexual stimulation- Psychologists think it could be a adaptive / defensive reaction of the mind to avoid further physical damages in a sensitive part of the body or linked to hidden desires (we say it is complex)- In fact nobody knows exactly why it happens but specialists know that the wrong people will use any theories in their favour.- A rape is a rape, it shouldn't be done on anyone (beside rapists). Period

Is interesting, to say the least, how sometimes discussions about rape forget to mention one essential thing: fear. She is in shock, barely conscious, unable to struggle physical or verbally, being raped by someone she deeply cared and being watched by who she loves.

I had a dream once, and even though I don't remember it, I still feel terrified by how I was unable to voice anything. And it was only a dream... Try to imagine the real thing.

Quote

My approach is more about: Didn't Miura just use a classic trope / cliché of hentai and Japanese erotic or pornographic material?

Miura certainly didn't just use a cliché of Hentai. I'm sure he took some inspiration on it, which is obvious with the tentacles, but is really making everything he created in that scene too simplistic. Yes, I believe he showed her feeling pleasure, specially because she begs Guts not to look, but that was not because Miura fails to understand the act but because it served in a dramatic way the story. Guts (for me its kinda bizarre how lots of people see him as an insensitive person) for sure does not blame Casca for any of it (as I am sure he does realise his own rape was not his fault), his rage is clearly due to what and how (making sure to show him) Griffith was doing it.

Quote

The same kind of Japanese cliché about women and rape can be seen with the Black dog during his first apparition having sex with women who seem to all enjoy him.

Why couldn't they be enjoying it? The scene does not show him forcing them, just a bunch of girls around him in what is clearly an orgy. Believe me, women can also be horny, just looking for sex.

Slan's view of the world seems pretty warped to me, so not sure about her interpretation of things, but the pleasure she mentions could be Femto's as easily as it is Casca's. The love could be Guts' love for Casca, her's for Guts, or it could be the love Casca had for Griffith. The pain and hate are easy enough to see. I guess the life could be Casca's unborn child, so where's the death? The death of Casca's love for Griffith? The death of Guts' and Casca's son's humanity? There's all kinds of stuff going on here, that's for sure.

PD: JMP she is exhausted, but still conscious of what is happening as she is telling guts not to look

I wasn't saying she isn't conscious at that time.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 12:50:32 AM by JMP »

Logged

A good sword, even if it rusts and dulls, has good steel that never rusts left over in the wick. That steel's the ultimate steel. Even if it cracks, if you return it to the fire, it's sure to be reborn. - Godot

Note that I didn't ask if she enjoyed but if she had pleasure which can be quite different regarding the matter but let's say it is a semantic detail

I don't think it's semantic at all.

Quote

Now, why those scenes look so ambiguous with a depiction of a rape compared to let's say the directing for such scenes in the movie Irreversible from Gaspard Noé (2002) or The City of God (2002), remains until now a mystery? It is quite treated much more like any hentai found in the market regarding the victim. It is not like Berserk has escaped all the clichés typical of shonen / seinen manga anyway.

So did Miura apply his cultural filter or has some other explanation for the graphic treatment of Casca?

It is a graphic scene because it is meant to be painful for the readers. Like Guts, we are forced to watch it happen. Hentai is intended to titillate. Were you titillated when reading this scene? If so, that could explain your confusion about the scene's intent.

Quote

Did Miura mentioned anything about that part of the manga that I could access too or does the official translation or original text give a different view on what is happening?

Somehow it never occurred to me to ask Miura how we're supposed to feel about the culminating emotional chasm of his series.

Quote

It seems you are very well documented so what are your sources? Or is it guts feeling (no pun intended) or just your own opinion from what you read in those scenes?

It's not a very difficult scene to interpret. I dont need a literary microscope for it, or a learned professor. I guess if there's a gun to my head, Id say it was the times she's saying "No," while crying, having her limbs spread by monsters and violated in front of a crowd of demons while the man she loves is held down face first in the blood of their comrades. I then came to the conclusion that she wasn't very into it.

That's all pretty apparent. However you've now invested 1,000+ words performing the mental gymnastics required to show a nonsensical reading of it based primarily on pornography.

The fact that she mentally regressed due to that scene kinda kills that idea of ambiguity you have, no? She didn't enjoy it. Physical ~uncontrollable~ pleasure, maybe. Like when men are raped. Because you know, when a guy is forced to penetrate someone, that is also rape, no matter how and why he got an erection.

Quote

[...] rape is not all vaginal lubrification, lusty eyes, swollen aroused lips and a girl actively going for it as shown in those chapters.

Where did you read this in Berserk? Not even the ~love~ scene between Casca and Guts has any of this.

Incidentally, my problem with THAT scene is a continuity one. In the Black Swordsman Arc, Guts' brand was bleeding profusely just from standing mere feet away from Femto. Casca was about as close as it gets to a member of the God Hand, her brand should've been practically pissing out blood but that wasn't the case.

Thank you for accepting me in that dedicated forum to Berserk, a very great manga. And that is an euphemism.

I searched through the forum and found that the controversial topic of Casca feeling pleasure while being raped by Femto (And it sounds already a bit like an oxymoron or a contradiction) was already discussed but...many answers were (with all my respect) quite oriented in a kind of funny way not to say naïve.

I like how you start by praising this forum and its members and then immediately proceed to contemptuously dismiss the numerous and lengthy discussions we've had in the past on the subject you came to address. There's more to showing respect than just saying you do. It's especially perplexing considering that you bring nothing new to the table here.

Reader of the manga, I couldn't avoid to notice that with the style, the storyboard and the pictures that it could seem like Casca is feeling pleasure during that quite traumatic moment (To say the least, I am not a big fan of rape scenes in any media).

I don't believe that feeling of yours stands up to scrutiny. During most of the scene, Casca is shown being in pain, frowning, crying, bleeding from her genitals, voicing her anguish and so on. We have discussed how specific panels inform what is going on in the past, and I suggest you search for and read those posts. That aside, the context of the scene itself (a public rape in front of an assembly of terrible monsters who just slaughtered her friends, with her grieviously wounded lover being forced to watch) is more than enough to clue in the viewer as to how the scene should be read: that of a victim being violated. Then there's the resulting trauma, that endures to this day.

I would like to avoid the very complex approach of: Could a woman feel pleasure while being forced / raped?

I'm sorry, but I fail to understand your reasoning here. If you made this thread because it seemed to you Casca might have felt "pleasure" despite herself during the rape, why would the complex topic of there being a possibility for a victim to feel a form of stimulation during a rape not be of interest to you? That is literally the only thing you should be looking to discuss.

But until now, there is nothing that could point out how exactly and which array of emotions Casca felt in Femto's arms. We can just see that she went amnesic under the shock and that she kept a bad memory of the rape attempt by the apostles but not really anything about Femto himself. In fact to the despair of Guts, she is even drawn by the new Griffith when he appears in front of her.

You're confused about a number of things. Casca's state of mind during her rape is quite clear: confusion at first, as she was unconscious and awoke to sexual stimulation. Then surprise and incomprehension, pain and fear, anguish and panic, and probably a whole lot of other negative emotions like guilt, shame and the like. Her lack of consent is really absolutely clear during the scene, and as a result of it she loses her mind. Not just her memories, as you're implying, but her mind. She has not evolved ever since it happened, she's remained locked in a barely functioning state as a result of that trauma.

Like you mention, her feelings about that moment are have also been displayed a few times since then making it absolutely clear how horrible a moment it was for her. You mention the fact Femto is never shown, but that's really quite easy to explain. First, the apostles fit more with the situation she was in when she recounted the fact (surrounded by would-be assaulters before any violation occurred), and second, if the actual traumatic event (the rape itself) is what holds her in that state, it would make perfect sense for her to suppress it more than anything else. Her easily remembering that event to no consequence would go against the notion of her mental illness being a result of it, and in fact, you'll note that she's been more herself than at any other time during one such event, when she took up the sword and slaughtered her assaillants, further reinforcing that notion.

Lastly, the reason she is drawn to Griffith is because Femto used her son as a vessel for his incarnation. She could always feel the boy, and was always drawn towards him (and vice versa), and that scene is simply a continuation of that. Of course, Guts is oblivious to that fact, and it looks to him like she's just instinctively drawn to Griffith, but we as readers know it's not the case. She felt him in her brand before he even showed up, and that's why she ran out to him. The same goes for the boy, who still exists inside Griffith. He forced him to act to protect Casca from falling rocks, and Griffith felt the boy's emotions for his father during the fight against Zodd. This phenomenon still goes on to this day, with the appearance of the Moonlight Boy.

My approach is more about: Didn't Miura just use a classic trope / cliché of hentai and Japanese erotic or pornographic material?

No? That scene is graphic, but hardly titillating. And it's graphic for a very simple reason: to make it hard to bear. That's why it's so effective. There's nothing gratuitous in there. It just lingers on the atrocity of Femto's act, interspaced with each character's reactions, so that the reader can identify with Guts' absolute hatred for Femto. What could have made him into the man he is when the manga starts? What could have motivated his seemingly undying rancor against his former friend? Well, in volume 13, you know. And you understand all too well.

You said at the beginning of your post that it's an euphemism to say Berserk is a very great manga. I agree, but what you're saying here is that you don't think so at all. How could Berserk be great if one of the pivotal moments of the story, which depicts the abject violation of a beloved character, was "a pornographic trope", something which would automatically make it whimsical in nature?

I have to say, for me it could change the way I can see the suffering of Guts. If seeing his beloved raped in front of his eyes wasn't enough, Guts would have to deal with the fact he witnessed Casca having pleasure with Femto (Fact which would suddenly blur the line between a rape and a kind of consensual sexual intercourse between two persons in lust...especially towards the end when obviously Casca feels Femto ejaculating in her and she is depicted having a orgasm or sort of).

I can see now why you wanted to avoid the discussion of whether or not a rape victim can feel a degree of stimulation against their will during the act. Because to you, feeling any such stimulation apparently "blurs the line" between rape and "a kind of consensual sexual intercourse between two persons in lust". I have to say, this is a pretty abhorrent line of reasoning, and one that makes you unwelcome on this forum as far as I'm concerned. Oh and there's no "obvious" orgasm on Casca's part at any time in that scene, I don't know what you're talking about.

I guess this also explains why the thread title is in such poor taste. A simple "misadventure"! Or maybe it was just an adventure, eh? Repugnant.

No need to remind that whatever Casca felt real for Guts before the eclipse, she was somehow quite lost in front of the princess and in front of the disabled Griffith.

You're obviously not understanding these scenes properly. Again, I encourage you to read previous discussions on the subject, that would help you make better sense of things. Casca was jealous of the princess' involvement, but that had no bearing on her feelings for Guts. And she felt pity for Griffith, and did not want to abandon him to his sorry state, which is just a display of loyalty on her part. One Guts and Judo also extended.

If Miura just used the classic Japanese cliché of women just enjoying sex whatever is it a terrible rape (truism attack) or not without link to Casca's feelings for Griffith or / and Griffith's power to turn Casca in lust...In this case...man...it is a terrible fail (It happens to many contemporary masterpieces anyway...no big deal)

Excuse me? It would be "no big deal"? Speak for yourself. Either way, this is not what is depicted in that scene, as we've established.

I may add, in the same line, why Guts in the first pages of the manga has sex with the female apostle (murderer of Corkus) before killing her? Was is a reference to Wicked City (from Kawajiri) or Conan the Barbarian with Arnold Schwarzenegger? If not it could go a bit against what we know of the character and sex.

The apostle thought it had the upper hand and dropped its guard, allowing Guts to go for an easy kill. Additionally, it's an intriguingly in-your-face opening scene that puts you right in the action.

Indeed, the members of the God Hand aren't exactly reliable characters when it comes to stating facts. That being said, like JMP explained, there are plenty of ways to explain those. Guts and Casca's love for each other, their son that Casca was carrying, or the struggle for life of those two, Femto's pleasure throughout the scene, and not even necessarily sexual, as he seemed to relish Guts' anguish in particular, etc.

Incidentally, my problem with THAT scene is a continuity one. In the Black Swordsman Arc, Guts' brand was bleeding profusely just from standing mere feet away from Femto. Casca was about as close as it gets to a member of the God Hand, her brand should've been practically pissing out blood but that wasn't the case.

The Brands were likely not yet "active" in that regard. It goes beyond the scene with Femto.

My approach is more about: Didn't Miura just use a classic trope / cliché of hentai and Japanese erotic or pornographic material?

Well, partially. You can see familiar elements in the matter all around the scene, being the tentacles the most noticing, as Giovanna said. But that's all you can really find. What you may consider as a cliché, is really only a light inspiration. The rest of it is pretty clear: Casca is not enjoying the thing at all. If you were in her skin, would you?

It's good to think that Miura makes a colossal research on every thing he's going to draw and tell us readers; that gives him a high level. But this matter is just either too dangerous or too nasty for it. Researching it and spending too much time sometimes is not worth it. You already saw that. Not too much time and/or research is needed to represent a scene of your lover being raped by a demon you both thought was your friend.

You can see familiar elements in the matter all around the scene, being the tentacles the most noticing, as Giovanna said.

I don't think having those tentacles hold her is much of a reference to be honest. Its just a visually convenient way to hold her for Guts to see while Femto has his way with her. Other than that the tentacles play no role in the scene. i wouldn't draw too many conclusions based on only that........

Quote

Not too much time and/or research is needed to represent a scene of your lover being raped by a demon you both thought was your friend.

I agree! The scene isnt unclear t all. Like someone said shes crying and bleeding and ends up insane so.... uhhhh it seems more a matter of personal bias to me, of people seeing what they want in it....