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Yes, but you are talking about someone who bred for show, to breed a champion and make lots of money. And a Pom at that

When you are discussing a breed like the Cavalier we are talking about breeders that are breeding for health. It is expensive to fully health test with all the problems this breed has so money isnt a factor! They most probably won't make any!

All you need to know is that they have fully health tested their breeding dogs, and preferably a generation or two back.

Wtih out meaning to sound rude, it seems like you are trying to talk yourself in to beleiving this is a good idea, and when I have to talk myself in to beleiving im doing the right thing- its because it is 100% the wrong thing to do!

Karen

Ruby - my stunning soul mate who defies the odds every dayCharlie- my angel at heart and devil at play

I think what Karen said is how a lot of us feel, so with all due respect, I can't comment on this tread anymore. We have all put forward our very valid and factual opinions. I just hope those facts weigh over your heart harder than a cute face at this point. But as we are humans, we have free will, and emotions (which I know is what makes this hard for you) and individuality. You will make your own decision, but I just hope one day you look back and know it was the right one. Will you love any pup no matter what? Of course you will, I dont doubt that, but I want you to look back with not only love of your pup, but love and pride in this breed.

I do have to say in your defense though that we are no trying to attack you by any means and I hope not one post comes off that way. We are all just very passionate because most of us have been through a lot health wise with this breed as well as a lot of time and money trying to promote and save the health of this breed. So it can get emotional. Also, it is hard to really take this all in and really understand the whole situation and issues until you are on the other side of the fence so I know it must be a little overwhelming and confusing for you too. I can understand that, and I hope the information we put forward helps you in any way possible.

Yes, but you are talking about someone who bred for show, to breed a champion and make lots of money. And a Pom at that When you are discussing a breed like the Cavalier we are talking about breeders that are breeding for health. It is expensive to fully health test with all the problems this breed has so money isnt a factor! They most probably won't make any! All you need to know is that they have fully health tested their breeding dogs, and preferably a generation or two back. Wtih out meaning to sound rude, it seems like you are trying to talk yourself in to beleiving this is a good idea, and when I have to talk myself in to beleiving im doing the right thing- its because it is 100% the wrong thing to do!

No, I'm not trying to talk myself into anything. I know both points and I've made my decision. I'm staying away from Cavalier's. From the sound of it they're a dying breed. If over 90% of them have SM there is not enough healthy breeding stock even if every breeder around the world got together. and from the sound of it even if you get a good breeder there's less than a 10% chance of having a healthy pup (completely discounting the heart problems) I'm not a glutton for punishment and I don't want to watch my dog scream in pain.

And I don't think you get my point about the breeder, she looked like a perfect breeder from the outside. Everyone said it, from the outside she bred for health as well as looks, but really she didn't. That's the point. Anyway I do thank everyone for their help.

...However, say her prized bitch game birth to a litter of 2 pups, to the AKC she would say the bitch had 4 or five pups. Or she might say she bred a lower quality bitch to her prized stud, but it wouldn't be, it would be her other stud. Likewise if she chose a stud from another breeder she'd say that the bitch had a larger litter, or if she had lost the pups she would take another bitch's pups and give them, so she would say those were the pups bred. And the times when the fee for the stud was the pick of the litter she would hide the prized put (the one she thought would show well) and put it out of sight. She charged (pet puppy price) $1500 for a male. And like I said on paper she looked great. ...

I've heard a lot of stories about deceitful breeders, but some of this makes no sense at all to me. For instance, AKC does not care how many puppies are in a litter, except that the more puppies in a litter, the higher the registration fee. I have heard of CKCSC,USA cavalier breeders who understate the number of puppies in a litter, to avoid having to pay higher registration fees, but then those breeders will tell AKC the actual number of puppies in that same litter.

With the advent of DNA testing, AKC will not condone breeders misrepresenting the name of the sire of litters. AKC perodically compares DNA of sires and littermates, and if AKC catches a breeder knowingly falsifying the litter registrations by misrepresenting the name of the actual sire, those breeders will be punished.

The solution to this dilemma? One option is what I always recommend to puppy buyers: Insist upon seeing the paperwork -- the registration papers, the heart examination reports, the MRI scan reports, the eye CERF reports, and so on. See, e.g., http://cavalierhealth.org/questions_for_breeder.htm

Often, the corrupt breeders will start their hedging dance.

"Oh, those papers got lost in our last move."

"Oh, they were stored in our basement, and the last hurricane flooded it and the box of papers had to be thrown out."

"WELL! I've never in my whole life been questioned about such things!"

"I'll send you those records with the puppy after you buy it."

Get the picture? When you start hearing these types of excuses, back away smartly and run in the opposite direction.

I've heard a lot of stories about deceitful breeders, but some of this makes no sense at all to me. For instance, AKC does not care how many puppies are in a litter, except that the more puppies in a litter, the higher the registration fee. I have heard of CKCSC,USA cavalier breeders who understate the number of puppies in a litter, to avoid having to pay higher registration fees, but then those breeders will tell AKC the actual number of puppies in that same litter. With the advent of DNA testing, AKC will not condone breeders misrepresenting the name of the sire of litters. AKC perodically compares DNA of sires and littermates, and if AKC catches a breeder knowingly falsifying the litter registrations by misrepresenting the name of the actual sire, those breeders will be punished. The solution to this dilemma? One option is what I always recommend to puppy buyers: Insist upon seeing the paperwork -- the registration papers, the heart examination reports, the MRI scan reports, the eye CERF reports, and so on. See, e.g., http://cavalierhealth.org/questions_for_breeder.htm

The reason she would do it was she would have a few Pom's that weren't AKC registered and she would breed the unregistered bitch and say the pups from the unregistered Pom was in fact the registered bitch. EDIT: I forgot to add that she did this becasue she could demand a higher price for a pup if one of the parents was said to be one of her many champions. Like I said she would charge for a pet pup upwards of $1500 but for the pup of her one specific champion stud she could charge triple that, easy.

Get the picture? When you start hearing these types of excuses, back away smartly and run in the opposite direction.

That is exactly what the breeder said to my ignorant self when I got Oliver, my first cavalier. I now know she was a backyard breeder and I should have run in the opposite direction instead of blithely handing over my hard earned cash. I never heard from her again and never received any papers for him. Luckily, he has made it to age 10 and 1/2 with no SM and no murmur (cardiologist certified this year) but he did have cervical disc decompression surgery at age 9. However, he's healthy now and stills runs in the backyard and is the only one of my dogs to actually play with Oz, my 4 year old (although on a very limited basis). He is on no meds and is a delight to me every day. So although I kick myself for supporting a BYB, I got my first cavalier love, my big boy (he is trim at 25 pounds) who triggered my lifelong love of cavaliers.

The reason she would do it was she would have a few Pom's that weren't AKC registered and she would breed the unregistered bitch and say the pups from the unregistered Pom was in fact the registered bitch. EDIT: I forgot to add that she did this becasue she could demand a higher price for a pup if one of the parents was said to be one of her many champions. Like I said she would charge for a pet pup upwards of $1500 but for the pup of her one specific champion stud she could charge triple that, easy.

That makes a little more sense. But, these days, with DNA testing, a lot of this "who's your daddy?" game has come to an end. AKC spends a lot of time and money trying to defeat deceitful breeders.

That makes a little more sense. But, these days, with DNA testing, a lot of this "who's your daddy?" game has come to an end. AKC spends a lot of time and money trying to defeat deceitful breeders.

I'm sure they try, however there are hundreds, if not thousands of breeders registered with the AKC out there; there's little to no chance that very many are caught. Only if the buyer made a fuss would the investigate. And like I said (before DNA testing was available to a breeder) she was a very well respected breeder. 17 years ago when we were shopping for a pup we were at the local CKC show and we talked to a Pom breeder and he was very proud to have dogs from the breeders line.

Lots of us are aware that cavaliers are approaching the edge of where they will be a dying breed if nothing or little is done or if breeders continue to make excuses about testing and following protocols. I do know from talking to others breeders in other breeds that there is real exasperation with the general approach of most cavalier breeders and most international cavalier clubs in honestly and openly tackling health issues that threaten the survival of the breed.

That's one reason why it is absolutely critical to support health testing breeders and to ask for documentation. This would be true for all breeds though! As would a propensity for many to say one thing but do another -- which is why a buyer cannot simply chat to someone or go on their verbal claims or what they say on a website. It takes time and research to find a good breeder.

It is true that over 90% of cavaliers will end up with MVD -- way too high a percentage and in too many cases, onset is early, with dogs from 3-8 showing first signs of a murmur . I was shocked to see a breeder elsewhere defending 7-8 as a perfectly fine age for cavaliers to get murmurs as they don't always progress to heart failure til older!! That's the equivalent of saying it is OK -- even 'normal' -- for 50% of humans to have a murmur at age 30-50 because after all, lots won't go into heart failure for years and there are lots of good drugs we can take to postpone those final stages. Other breeds get murmurs as very elderly dogs and typically die of something else, not the distressing prolonged death of CHF. There's something seriously wrong with breeder/club mindset that thinks it is OK for dogs to have these early onset problems that cause the average lifespan to be about a fourth less than it should be for a small breed.

All that said -- nothing like 90% of dogs, even with MVD, are struggling with serious symptoms and many will go years with no murmur or a minor murmur. Most with SM will not have serious symptoms. Again -- that's why it is so critical to support the honest breeders who are working hard, and at expense, to lower incidence and push off age of onset to gradually breed away from these problems. Lots of us have a strong commitment to the breed and want to see these figures change.

No cavalier buyer should be unaware of these health issues and the probabilities tough and a commitment to caring for a dog with at least one of these issues *eventually* needs to be art of the decision making process.

Research will reveal plenty of genetic issues and endemic inbreeding in most breeds though and all buyers need to carefully research breeds and breeders.