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I'd note that my religious text notes that a fool will always hold he is cleverer than the wise, and the best way to deal with fools is to answer them in such a way that their ignorance and foolishness becomes apparent.

I'd also add that there is a difference between quoting an opinion in support of your argument, and simply blindly regurgitating the word of your peers.

The benefits of studying law in a nation that practices the adversarial system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by novalysis

This amuses me greatly. The first two pages of Kirito's character thread, a thorough rebuttal to why Kirito is not a Sue.

No,it's just that Randomzx is regurgitating an opinion held by others, and has evidently not read the books.

Whereas I have read the books several times, and I am a lot better at arguing my case than he is, being that I've actually thought this through, and came to this conclusion by my self.

__________________

~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

Seeing that his arguments have been already deconstructed to a degree it becomes invalid it seems there's no point in chiming in fairly similar points. If he still doesn't understand then I will just simply consider him a troll and move on.

Its more like you people still don't understand what a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is.
You guys are basing your idea that because Kirito is not perfect, he's not a Gary Stu.
The Mary sue concept is not just simple as you guys make it out to be, and you seems to be also basing them on popular misconception.
Often harcore 'edgy' character or 'gangster' characters can just as easily be qualified.

As I said before people conveniently ignored that a Gary Stu's role and abilities have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree. Pretty much All of his 'mistakes' and 'drama' in his 'backstory' are more due to other people's fault and are typical mary sueish melodramatic 'tragedy'.

Let's make this clear: We absolutely do not see how his role or his abilities 'have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree'. Not in a Light Novel. It's called LIGHT for a reason. We totally understand that a REAL novel would have the protagonists as a normal man/woman doing normal things and does not particularly affect the world and proves that a man's power can only go so far, but this is for god's sake a LIGHT novel. From Japan. Exactly what the heck are you expecting, Game of Thrones kind of story?

This sentence is especially wrong even if I try to look at it objectively. 'All of his 'mistakes' and 'drama' in his 'backstory' are more due to other people's fault'? When you spill your milk as a kid it's both your fault for being young and your mother's fault for not taking better care of you. When you fight with your friends it's both your faults for duking it out despite better options.

More due to 'other people's fault'? Every time something happens, EVERYTHING is a reason. That's an absolutely stupid statement to use to base your arguments.

Its more like you people still don't understand what a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is.
You guys are basing your idea that because Kirito is not perfect, he's not a Gary Stu. The Mary sue concept is not just simple as you guys make it out to me. Often harcore 'edgy' character or 'gangster' characters can just as easily be qualified.

As I said before people conveniently ignored that a Gary Stu's role and abilities have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree. Pretty much All of his 'mistakes' and 'drama' in his 'backstory' are more due to other people's fault and are typical mary sueish melodramatic 'tragedy'.

The person here who doesn't understand what the term means here is you. The term "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" and the adjective "perfect" go hand-in-hand; a character that is inherently perfect does not imply, in any way, that a character is a Sue/Stu. However, it's some of those qualities that perfect characters possess that makes them Sues or Stus, which Kirito does not. One such example is a character being so extremely powerful and intelligent that they're able to predict every move every one of their opponents makes in a fight, and counter effectively and flawlessly. Of course, there's more than one definition to the term, but I'm sure you know that.

If you understand the term so well, I don't see why you simply couldn't explain, in detail, what the term means, and show how Kirito is one instead of throwing the definitions and a baseless statement or two at us.

Cancerous grip? Harms it to a huge degree? Your words mean nothing without examples/evidence. And before you say "neither do yours!" I'd like to point out that I don't know what this "cancerous grip" that has harmed the story "to a huge degree" is. The only time you presented examples, they weren't even yours, not to mention the fact that were proven invalid.

As you've evidently not read the novels, your argument is completely and utterly laughable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craxuan

Let's make this clear: We absolutely do not see how his role or his abilities 'have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree'. Not in a Light Novel. It's called LIGHT for a reason. We totally understand that a REAL novel would have the protagonists as a normal man/woman doing normal things and does not particularly affect the world and proves that a man's power can only go so far, but this is for god's sake a LIGHT novel. From Japan. Exactly what the heck are you expecting, Game of Thrones kind of story?

I don't see what this has to do with it being a light novel. The main reasons light novels are called light are because of two reasons: 1) the illustrations, and 2) the target demographic.

A "real" novel? SAO is fantasy mixed with some sci-fi; the whole idea is that it's not supposed to be real. There's no such thing a "real" novel; it all depends on the genre (i.e. realism if you want to read about normal people doing normal things).

So yeah. I don't see SAO as a conventional Light Novel - it's head and shoulders over the vast majority of it's compatriots. Not to mention that Light Novel cliches are really a very recent phenomena, and thankfully, SAO begun before that trend rotted stories published in that format.

Seriously. SAO could easily be published as a near-future Sci-Fi novel - especially the best of it's later volumes, and it won't look out of place.

You know I really don't care if Kirito is considered a Gary Stu or whatever.

I love it when my characters using overwhelming force, hot-blood, guts, and power of will to curb stomp the enemy.

Not like monster of the week star driver like curb stomp thats a whole different animal altogether.

I'm talking actually making the enemy feel the pain of having someone just better then them stomping a mud hole in their rear.

In other words Personally I really don't care much either way as long as the story is kept entertaining and yes I most people like to see the main character actually work for his or her victory winning impossible odds not with just overwhelming force alone. After all if you see them stomp every single enemy everytime it starts to get old for some however once in awhile it feels good to immerse yourself in fiction for noting more then a good time.

I hate to rain on your parade, guys, but generally Light Novels are termed that way because they use simplified characters in their printing, instead of the more complicated shit.

That said, the usual Light Novel demographic roughly corresponds to what in America would be the Young Adult market. When was the last time you saw something like SAO in the YA section? As far as I can recall, never.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rovert10

Don't feed the trolls?

Nah, I just find it always amusing that these types of people tend to always run away from point-by-point countering of their ideas, and will always fall back on the last defense of the ignorant: bluster and sweeping statements.

Oh wait, this wasn't even his idea to begin with - he's just regurgitating (i.e. eating his own vomit before vomiting out again) the ideas of someone else! So yeah, I think I win.

But then, it was an unfair debate to begin with - after all, I did study law, taking the hardest external degree programme in the Commonwealth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomzx

Its more like you people still don't understand what a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is.
You guys are basing your idea that because Kirito is not perfect, he's not a Gary Stu.

The problem, boyo, is that your examples generally agree on one point: Mary Sues tend to be perfect. The story follows them. Everyone loves them and throws themselves at the Sue's feet. There is no conflict. The appearance of the Sue is an automatic Win button for the heroes.

Frankly, I don't see this happening in Sword Art Online. But then again, I wouldn't expect you to be aware of this, given that you've chosen to launch your trolling based on the opinion of someone else, which you are just regurgitating*, and you have not even read the books in question.

Which I assume is frustrating you to no end, as I keep asking you to provide examples to argue your case, at which point you resort to sweeping statements. That's truly the mark of someone who didn't study his source material.

*Regurgitating: technical term for what cows do, which is eating grass, vomiting it up, and eating the said vomit. Process repeats three times for another three stomachs, until the 4x regurgitated grass vomit hits the intestines.

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The Mary sue concept is not just simple as you guys make it out to be, and you seems to be also basing them on popular misconception.
Often harcore 'edgy' character or 'gangster' characters can just as easily be qualified.

At the same time, you haven't actually given anything to prove your point. You've just said, "Kirito is a Sue, because another poster said so!" and you haven't managed to argue your points successfully. Hell, you haven't even read the light novels!

You have zero credibility in this case. Go and read. Then redo your points with your examples. And then, maybe then, will you be taken seriously.

Wait, you can't. You've shown zero ability to think and debate point by point. All you can do is make sweeping, generalized statements, because you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Quote:

As I said before people conveniently ignored that a Gary Stu's role and abilities have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree.

Pretty much All of his 'mistakes' and 'drama' in his 'backstory' are more due to other people's fault and are typical mary sueish melodramatic 'tragedy'.

You're missing the whole point. And since we're linking, I'm going to counter with a blog post from Larry Correia, who is a published author on the New York Times bestseller list, AND Jim Butcher, author of the excellent Codex Alera and Dresden Files series is a big fan of his: The Evils of Mary Sue

I'll sum up his main point, which is something you keep willfully ignoring: Kirito, nor other characters in Sword Art Online, can NOT correctly be termed as Mary Sues, because they are organic to that verse. They are the main characters of that verse. Therefore, the term Mary Sue cannot apply, as it is used to refer to fanfiction author created characters with undesirable traits.

And Kirito's mistakes being due to other people? Really. Well then, where's your evidence? Show your examples to back up your arguments. Where is the cancerous grip on the story? He's telling his own story. Of course it will follow him!

And again, you're not giving your examples, but just making sweeping, broad statements. Contrast the following analogies:

Wild Goose: "Based on the Officious Bystander Rule, as laid down in the case of The Moorcock, it is submitted that there was an implied term in the contract that the defendants' dock would be deep enough to allow the plaintiff's vessel to be moored without damage." (Point and quoted example to support.)

But at the end of the day, what this really serves to accomplish is nothing of import. Without a strong argument, you cannot convince us, yet you cannot argue that which you do not know. You who know not what you speak of, but in your conceit attempt to lord your ignorance over others, brushing aside debate and reasoned arguments for childish bluster.

You are as a storm in a teacup, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

You know I really don't care if Kirito is considered a Gary Stu or whatever.

I love it when my characters using overwhelming force, hot-blood, guts, and power of will to curb stomp the enemy.

Not like monster of the week star driver like curb stomp thats a whole different animal altogether.

I'm talking actually making the enemy feel the pain of having someone just better then them stomping a mud hole in their rear.

That said, often times the Braves did have to work hard for their wins. But when they pulled it off, awesomeness ensued.

Quote:

In other words Personally I really don't care much either way as long as the story is kept entertaining and yes I most people like to see the main character actually work for his or her victory winning impossible odds not with just overwhelming force alone. After all if you see them stomp every single enemy everytime it starts to get old for some however once in awhile it feels good to immerse yourself in fiction for noting more then a good time.

That's quite true. Sephiroth, for instance, is a massive sue, and yet gets a pass due to how entertaining he is. One could argue Nineball Seraph is this as well, or the Dovahkiin...

Bottomline: If you're entertained and having fun, then it's forgivable. That said, IMO Kirito isn't a Sue, based on above posts.

__________________

~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

The person here who doesn't understand what the term means here is you. The term "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" and the adjective "perfect" go hand-in-hand; a character that is inherently perfect does not imply, in any way, that a character is a Sue/Stu. However, it's some of those qualities that perfect characters possess that makes them Sues or Stus, which Kirito does not.

I bet you still haven't done any research on what Mary Sue is really about or even checked out my links. I seriously think its your fan boy reaction that prevent you guys from seeing what Kirito truly is and chose ignore moments of that case and cherry pick details and as 'evidence'that Kirito is not a sue.
A Mary Sue is not required to be flawless, see for examplehttp://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Drizzt_do%27Urden

Quote:

One such example is a character being so extremely powerful and intelligent that they're able to predict every move every one of their opponents makes in a fight, and counter effectively and flawlessly. Of course, there's more than one definition to the term, but I'm sure you know that.

Spoiler:

Except that's pretty much what he does in GGO, not to mention insist on using swords in game about guns and pretty much makingmost of the the gun veterans star wars stormtrooper level in capabilities so he could handily defeat with that weapon choice.
He is able to dodge multiple bullets from a full automatic firing its whole clip. He also dodges bullet in a "fixed" gambling game where the shooter cheats. Kirito thus shows that his skills are so great that he can even beat a cheater by dodging MULTIPLE bullets fired at him from less than 3 meters distance. (Though the author admits he really don't know much about guns)
And he is doing all these with his own reaction speed and somehow is able to account for the random bullet spray factor while hardly anyone else could that duplicate his feats despite long they've been in the world.

Quote:

If you understand the term so well, I don't see why you simply couldn't explain, in detail, what the term means, and show how Kirito is one instead of throwing the definitions and a baseless statement or two at us.

From one source:

Quote:

Other characters in the story do not react to Mary Sue as they would normally?canon characters become out of character.
Characters instantly like Mary Sue, even in circumstances that should make them suspicious. For instance, a fifteen-year-old breaks into Cheyenne Mountain, hacks the Air Force's website and steals data, assaults base guards, and employs blackmail in order to join SG-1. Colonel Samantha Carter decides that they can treat him like an adult due to his IQ and understands that all he wants to do is help. He is allowed to join.[3]
Characters instantly dislike Mary Sue for spurious reasons that don't fit their personalities. A frequently encountered example of this in Lord of the Rings fanfiction is the Designated Misogynistic Bastard: despite no indication in The Lord of the Rings that he dislikes women, Boromir (or Gimli, or Aragorn) puts Mary Sue down because "girls aren't strong enough for this."[4] This should create plot tension, but Mary Sue overcomes the token obstacle easily, either winning the DMB over or causing the others to shun him, and the story proceeds.

Spoiler:

Kirito pretty much is always flocked by girls that likes him for either contrived or half-baked reasons. And conveniently they are all some of best looking girls despite it being in-universe that there aren't many good looking people playing MMO. And despite all this, supposedly only have eye for his 'true love' (who is conveniently rich, the idol of the MMO, near the top in the best guild, and fulfill practically every requirement in the otaku's ideal
'waifu') with a romance that is laughably corny and equally unbelievable. Naturally, Kirito乫s group and harem is practically always the top tier party in all the MMOs that matters.

As for those that hate Kirito, the vast majority of the time they hate him for petty reasons. Such as being too good, to popular, and getting the girls they like. As a result, they are flanderized into all sorts of villains of the worst kind. From hammy overmelodramatic villains, to the mustache-twirling super villains that are often either extreme caricatures or downright irredeemable

Quote:

Secondary Traits Edit
Some traits are commonly associated with Mary Sues without in and of themselves causing a character to be a Mary Sue. All of these traits can be portrayed well in an original character, but the reason they are associated with Sues is that they are often a part of the Sue's "specialness," meaning that they're used in the narrative as cheap tickets for the character to instantly earn the respect, admiration, or sympathy of others. Because readers can often see through traits used in this manner, they can cause readers to lose their ability to suspend disbelief, to the detriment of the story.

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Extreme physical beauty. Female Sues especially are often described as having "perfect" or "supermodel"[10] features, reflecting not real beauty, but the impossible feminine ideal invented by fashion ads. Other Sues, and Stus in particular, may be described as being unnaturally buff, with a physique and agility normally only attainable in tandem by anime characters. If a Sue has a physical flaw, it tends to be something like a birthmark: visible, and a talking point when the Sue feels like drawing attention to it, but otherwise having no impact on her daily life. Other characters may even see this "flaw" as a unique decoration to be admired.
May be accompanied by florid over-description, as in this page's epigraph.

Spoiler:

Kirito is described as looking like pretty girl and this is supposed to be one of his 'flaws', until you realize being a pretty boy is pretty much the pop culture standard of a young male attractiveness. Even in GGO where is avatar is supposedly randomly generated, he still end up looking practically like his old pretty boy self. Hell, due to his 'trap' appearance, obviously he also attracts the guys as well

Quote:

Extreme prowess. Many Sues have some kind of talent that far outstrips anyone else with a similar ability, if indeed anyone else possesses it. An Elven Sue may be a better archer than Legolas; an X-Men Sue may have the combined powers of Wolverine, Cyclops, and Professor X; a Harry Potter Sue may be able to perform wandless magic in year three.[11] Often, this is a talent Mary Sue was born with; she didn't have to spend years perfecting it like anyone else in the world would. This also includes the many, many Sues observed to have fantastic singing voices, able to enchant anyone with the stirring melodies of Britney Spears.

Spoiler:

Despite be described being very knowledge about the game and know how to train himself to be among the best. He still perform super human feats as a player as described above part in the beginning. And his group is practically always top tier and obtain most of the best equipments that pretty much nobody has or often getting them way earlier than anybody else. Hell, Kirito gets the Excalibur, which is pretty much the #1 sword. If you are not part of his party, you are unlikely to be anything in the game world unless you are the designated 'villain'.
The author's own notes pretty much talked about capturing a lower level player's amazement at the super high level players and all their gears; seeing them as practically gods or superhuman players. He even talked about witnessing them defeating monsters that they fear at their skill level easily and could practically save the player out of nowhere and disappear just as quickly. Basically he specifically created Kirito as a window into the lower level players' impression of the end game characters.

As if that wasn't enough:

Quote:

He's apparently now a mechatronics engineer with proficiency in mechanical, electrical, and computer software engineering able to create technology decades ahead of his time and basically able to fully emulate and copy consciousness to data. Yeah, he's starting to take over the real world as well. I wouldn't be surprised if he could suddenly fight in the real world as well

And he's practically hinted to eventually create many of the systems found in Accel World.

Quote:

A terrible past. Something happened in the character's past that is supposed to make other characters (and the audience) sympathize with her in the present. Comes in two flavors in a Sue story:
Actually terrible, but trivialized due to mishandling: her parents died and she's living with mean foster parents... who don't understand her taste in manga;[12] or, she's the only surviving member of her race... so she must mate with Legolas.[13]
Not actually terrible: she's cursed with beauty,[14] or she's a nerd and no one recognizes her genius, or she's a princess running away from the horrible oppression of the royal lifestyle.

Spoiler:

Kirito's reason for not wanting to join any party and prefer to only fight alone at the beginning? Its because his previous party member insisted on opening a trapped chest despite his warnings. So his party dies and the last person blames him and commits suicidal. All of these in a ridiculously melodramatic fashion. And this is only one of over dramatic 'tragedies'. Basically most of Kirito's 'failure' is the inability to stop other people from acting like retards, not because of his character flaw.

Seriously, in most of the forums and discussion I heard, its a general consensus that Kirito is a Gary Stu. Its your fanboy vision and tendency to hold onto minor justifying details that doesn't allow you to see Kirito that way.

Kirito is overpowered though, in my opinion, having read through Mother Rosario. He is the most powerful player in virtual reality. There was no one better than him in SAO except for the person who created SAO, Kayaba. And in Mother Rosario, Kirito wasn't dual wielding, so he wasn't going full out. Randomzx also gives a couple of good examples in GGO that made me pause.

I'm pretty sure that Kirito decided not to stop his teammates from opening the chest despite knowing the risk, because he was afraid that his Beater identity will be revealed and hated by everyone.

And Rennir, you did not read Mother Rosario thoroughly enough.

Spoiler for Mother Rosario spoiler:

The first time he did not go all out, that I conceit. But it was mentioned that they faced each other a second time in a grand final duel at the end of the story, and Kirito lost against black girl's ultimate technique.

If we get the cookie cutter harem protags, they're insulted and belittled.

On the other hand, make someone competent/strong and you get complaints that he's way too good for the story.

Here's an example: Ezio Auditore da Firenze of the Assassins Creed II fame. Not only does he routinely do the impossible, what with assassinating high value targets and liberating cities practically on his own when he shows up, but he also happens to be best buds with people like Leonardo da Vinci or Machiavelli. In other words, he seems perfect.

Rare will you find a person bitching or moaning about him simply cause he fills the purpose of making the medium interesting. If Kirito fails that job, then he's definitely on his way to being a sue. If he doesn't, then it's a good sign he's a good character.

The first time he did not go all out, that I conceit. But it was mentioned that they faced each other a second time in a grand final duel at the end of the story, and Kirito lost against black girl's ultimate technique.

The first time he did not go all out, that I conceit. But it was mentioned that they faced each other a second time in a grand final duel at the end of the story, and Kirito lost against black girl's ultimate technique.

Spoiler:

And then she pretty much dies from AIDS, can't let anybody outshine Kirito for long other wish the self-inserts would get angry.

Quote:

Rare will you find a person bitching or moaning about him simply cause he fills the purpose of making the medium interesting. If Kirito fails that job, then he's definitely on his way to being a sue. If he doesn't, then it's a good sign he's a good character.

Except he doesn't make the story interesting, in fact he makes it more generic. The author really just can't carry the premise of the MMO world, its pretty much another stale JRPG 2.0 in a VR world (Aren't they suppose to offer full immersion? this is more like that old Nintendo Virtual Boy [same old gameplay with more fancy graphics and special effects]) to with an even more generic online society.

he even admits the story suffers because of imbalanced focus in his notes.

Quote:

This day's event was completed in the predawn between 2 and 5 a.m (laughs). The contents are...as always, Kirito-shi and as always, Asuna-san and as always, Lyfa-san and as always Lizbeth-san and as always Scilica-san and as always Sinon-san and as always Yui-san and as always Alice-san. Well, Alice is not always......

Quote:

In this SAO work, the heroines kept increasing as the story progressed, but the structure of the story didn't let protagonist Kirito-shi to come up with a clear answer, if I tried to find a conclusion to the situation, it'd only be in this form. Was what I thought as I wrote this short story.

Quote:

This time too, as I re-read the script...... I felt it was terrible in various ways. But, well, I can't stop thinking that it was, in a sense, the meaning of the SAO series (laugh)."

It was really meant to be a one volume story he wrote and edited when he was young, but popular demands forced to create more with little time for proper planning.

Well Randomzx you've already made it pretty clear you're not into the novel that much. What else is there to prove? Thing is fans will be fans and haters will be haters. Let's just chalk this up to differences of point of view and tastes and get on w/ it. If you're not happy w/ the series in general then drop it. No need to have lengthy arguments w/ fans who having been immersed in the series found it enjoyable and would not likely change their minds.

Here I go again. That said, I have practically zero expectation that I'm going to get a reply.

*Edit: Spoilering the bulk of the replies. *shrug* Not that it will do much good, since the mods tell me spoilers are spoilers, but this is the only way to address Randomzx.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomzx

I bet you still haven't done any research on what Mary Sue is really about or even checked out my links. I seriously think its your fan boy reaction that prevent you guys from seeing what Kirito truly is and chose ignore moments of that case and cherry pick details and as 'evidence'that Kirito is not a sue.
A Mary Sue is not required to be flawless, see for examplehttp://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Drizzt_do%27Urden

And I bet you haven't actually read any of my posts, given that you won't respond to anything that I've posted. Again, you're missing the point that a Mary Sue is a fanfiction character. Mind you, to follow TV Tropes, Canon Sue might be a better description. But then by your examples and your interpretations, it would seem that Harry Dresden would be a Sue, Richard Winters is a Sue, and every member of Delta Force is a Sue.

You forget that being a Mary Sue is an instant I Win button, which does not happen for Kirito, who goes through a lot of shit and has to work to get his happy ending.

Spoiler for Significant Novel Details:

Quote:

Except that's pretty much what he does in GGO, not to mention insist on using swords in game about guns and pretty much makingmost of the the gun veterans star wars stormtrooper level in capabilities so he could handily defeat with that weapon choice.

Except that what you forgot is that GGO contains melee weapons also, and that a fair number of players carry combat knives of some sort as a backup/weapon of last resort. And you seem to not be aware of the American GGO player who does one better than Kirito, and fights unarmed, in a game about guns. He takes his bare hands into the game as his weapons, and uses CQC on players to take them down and steal their guns. (Granted, it was speculated in-universe that he was a special forces soldier, but still. That would hardly work very well in the real world.)

Have you actually read the Phantom Bullet arc? Because you'll note that throughout the arc, as much as he can, Kirito attempts to fight on his own terms, in situations that will be favorable to him and allow him the use of his chosen weapons. That's not making the other players stormtroopers at all.

Quote:

He is able to dodge multiple bullets from a full automatic firing its whole clip. He also dodges bullet in a "fixed" gambling game where the shooter cheats. Kirito thus shows that his skills are so great that he can even beat a cheater by dodging MULTIPLE bullets fired at him from less than 3 meters distance. (Though the author admits he really don't know much about guns)
And he is doing all these with his own reaction speed and somehow is able to account for the random bullet spray factor while hardly anyone else could that duplicate his feats despite long they've been in the world.

Firstly, dodging multiple bullets from an automatic weapon in a game isn't as surprising as you make it out to be - or do you not play any shooters online? As long as the weapons are not hitscan weapons, and so long as the game's engine must track and model the individual rounds being fired, there is alwyas the chance, however slim, in dodging incoming fire. Let's also not forget that with an assault rifle or a machine gun firing at full auto, the recoil would succeed in throwing your aim off by a lot, even if you were in a Nanosuit 2.0. I've dodged enemy fire at times, enemies have dodged my fire at times. When playing Modern Warfare, I was never killed by someone using up their entire mag on me, but by careful players using controlled burst. Why? Because full auto is inaccurate by nature, thanks to recoil.

The other thing you're not taking into account is that GGO's engine is using The Seed, which was SAO's engine. The underlying base code of The Seed allows skills from characters in one game to be transferred and used passively in another game that doesn't have those skills - which made Kirito quite dangerous, because he had 2 years worth of leveled skills and reflexes, as well as the enemy detection skill that didn't exist in GGO.

And you're forgetting that GGO has a bullet path indicator, which was something Crysis 2 had. Also, the only way Kirito is dodging is because his SAO-honed reflexes give him an instant of warning just before the bullet path indicator kicks in. Frankly, it's no different from the Pointman or Beckett being able to bullet time and dodge bullets. Or are you going to say that those two are also Sues?

Quote:

Kirito pretty much is always flocked by girls that likes him for either contrived or half-baked reasons. And conveniently they are all some of best looking girls despite it being in-universe that there aren't many good looking people playing MMO. And despite all this, supposedly only have eye for his 'true love' (who is conveniently rich, the idol of the MMO, near the top in the best guild, and fulfill practically every requirement in the otaku's ideal
'waifu') with a romance that is laughably corny and equally unbelievable. Naturally, Kirito乫s group and harem is practically always the top tier party in all the MMOs that matters.

Contrived? Well, Lizbeth went through a life-or-death situation with him, which formed the basis of her crush. Scilica's meeting with him is a rescue romance of sorts, given that he saved her from getting killed and helped resurrect Pina. Shino is a mix of Fire Forged Friends and Defeat Means Friendship. And Asuna... of all of them, she's been friends with him for the longest. Their relationship happened even before he knew anything about her.

Also, just a note - Asuna would not be likely to inherit much of RECTO, given that she's the younger child and her older brother is being groomed to take over the company.

As for top tier party? Not even in SAO - Scilica and Lizbeth are mid-level players, who wouldn't survive random encounters on the floors that Asuna and Kirito travel. In ALO, they're all mid-level players, and while they're known to some of the top players in ALO, they're also still unknowns - notice that in Mother's Rosario, the guild that Kirito and Klein held off had no idea who they were.

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As for those that hate Kirito, the vast majority of the time they hate him for petty reasons. Such as being too good, to popular, and getting the girls they like. As a result, they are flanderized into all sorts of villains of the worst kind. From hammy overmelodramatic villains, to the mustache-twirling super villains that are often either extreme caricatures or downright irredeemable.

I'm getting tired of asking for specific examples, instead of general statements. I would note that I have met people who are just as bad as Oberon in real life.

Besides, pettiness is an inescapable part of life. Aren't you being quite petty right now?

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Kirito is described as looking like pretty girl and this is supposed to be one of his 'flaws', until you realize being a pretty boy is pretty much the pop culture standard of a young male attractiveness. Even in GGO where is avatar is supposedly randomly generated, he still end up looking practically like his old pretty boy self. Hell, due to his 'trap' appearance, obviously he also attracts the guys as well

Yes and no. Kirito doesn't like that effeminate appearance because it causes people to not take him seriously, and doesn't really suit his loner feelings. At first. That said, I salute him for not being unwilling to take advantage of his trap face in GGO. That said, this doesn't appear to be portrayed as a flaw, but rather as something he's not happy about. Every teenager has had something they were unhappy about their looks.

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Despite be described being very knowledge about the game and know how to train himself to be among the best. He still perform super human feats as a player as described above part in the beginning. And his group is practically always top tier and obtain most of the best equipments that pretty much nobody has or often getting them way earlier than anybody else. Hell, Kirito gets the Excalibur, which is pretty much the #1 sword. If you are not part of his party, you are unlikely to be anything in the game world unless you are the designated 'villain'.

Firstly, he's hardly different from the other beta testers in that regard, and his early game exploits were hardly superhuman. At the same time, he gets where he is because of training and putting in the time to level grind; Asuna is very close to his level, despite not being a beta tester, and Klein and Agil likewise are members of the clearing group.

As for his group - of sorts - being top tier, in SAO that's by default, as he's part of the clearing group, a loose organisation of guilds and solo players dedicated to clearing Aincrad. By the very nature of their daily "job", going out into the unknown and fighting bosses, these are the top players in the game, because if you are not at that level you will die. Comparing normal players to them is like comparing a normal infantryman to a Delta Force operator. (I should note, however, that 10 years of near-constant COIN have caused the average American soldier to take up much of what used to be a special forces role - the skill level in Stryker battalions, for example, has been described as SF light. This also means that J-SCO assets have stepped up their game.)

As for best gear, part of that is due to luck and the Random Number God, and the other is that Lizbeth is a damn good blacksmith. Dark Repulser and Lambent Light were made by her, afterall.

And you don't seem to have truly understood Caliber, because if you did, you would know that Kirito, Asuna and Suguha made one attempt at the Excaliber quest and had to run away because they were too weak to clear it; they needed their full team to get through the quest in the book. And none of them had the best gear. In fact, if Shinon wasn't there, Kirito wouldn't have gotten Excaliber at all, something which he reinforces to himself at the end: he can't do things alone, and needs the help of his friends.

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The author's own notes pretty much talked about capturing a lower level player's amazement at the super high level players and all their gears; seeing them as practically gods or superhuman players. He even talked about witnessing them defeating monsters that they fear at their skill level easily and could practically save the player out of nowhere and disappear just as quickly. Basically he specifically created Kirito as a window into the lower level players' impression of the end game characters.

So your argument is that Kirito is a representation of a high level character encountering a low level character, who's able to defeat mobs easily due to a combination of leveled gear and skills, which he has spend 2 years working on.

So, that would then mean that high level characters in MMOs are then sues. Hell, that would mean that I'm a Sue, given my N7 ranking and the fact that I'm one of those players.

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As if that wasn't enough:

I have actually addressed this above. Nevertheless, as you appear to have willfully overlooked my statement, I shall reproduce it here:

"Yes, hooking up a couple of webcams to a laptop, and using servos to controll their movement is truly cutting edge stuff. Why, it's not as if the technology for yui's laptop rig hasn't existed for DECADES. And he IS studying mechatronics, y'know.

"And there hasn't been any example of copying consciousness to data that he's done, that was Kayaba. And it didn't quite work. As for yui, she's an AI program. He was able to save her program to his NervGear's storage - he didn't copy anyone's ghost.

"As for fighting in the real world, you apparently overlooked the bit about him having taken up kendo before, IRL. And i wonder how far you've read, because he's been in two irl fights, managed to survive the first from luck, and got his ass kicked in the second."

With further regard to the shoulder rig that Yuuki used to go to school, note that he did not do it alone, but created it with the help of two of his mechatronics classmates. It's quite clear that they helped him with making that rig, which is essentially a gyroscope-stabilised webcam and speakers hooked up to a laptop. All of which, I repeat, is existing technology.

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And he's practically hinted to eventually create many of the systems found in Accel World.

Nope, I don't see anything like that. He's just a high school student who took mechatronics as one of his electives and works part time as an MMO beta tester over the weekend.

Also, Word of God - ie, the Author - is that Accel World and Sword Art Online are not connected at all. There is some influence and overlap in concept - the UW in Alicization inspired Kawahara to develop further into the Accelerated World, and Kuroyukihime was obviously inspired from Kirito and Asuna - but both verses are not connected.

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Kirito's reason for not wanting to join any party and prefer to only fight alone at the beginning? Its because his previous party member insisted on opening a trapped chest despite his warnings. So his party dies and the last person blames him and commits suicidal. All of these in a ridiculously melodramatic fashion. And this is only one of over dramatic 'tragedies'. Basically most of Kirito's 'failure' is the inability to stop other people from acting like retards, not because of his character flaw.

I take it you've never had people you know die, or had to comfort grieving people.

His friends are dead because he lied to them. The last member of Black Cats of the Full Moon commits suicide out of grief. This melodrama, as you call it, has actual real world precedent. Put yourself in his shoes. Your friends are dead because you withheld information, and your guild leader calls you out for being dishonest. Your last friend rejects you and kills himself. You promised to protect someone, and you failed, and they are dead.

You know what was a favorite pastime in Telupid, for people who felt they had no hope or reason to live anymore? Drinking pesticide. Quite common, in my old village. Keita is behaving exactly as how they would have.

The last statements Randomzx has made do not contain spoilers, and I feel there's a certain benefit to addressing them publicly.

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Originally Posted by Randomzx

Seriously, in most of the forums and discussion I heard, its a general consensus that Kirito is a Gary Stu.

Emphasis mine. You do realise how sad this is, don't you? You had no opinion of your own, but latched onto the opinions of others, and use that to prop yourself to a position of superiority, whereby you attempt to lecture us all. You cannot even argue your opinion, because it isn't your opinion, it's the opinion of others that you are just regurgitating.

There's a fine line between quoting an agreeing opinion, and simply blindly following the crowd.

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Its your fanboy vision and tendency to hold onto minor justifying details that doesn't allow you to see Kirito that way.

I was wondering when you were going to throw out the ad hominem. It's a notoriously weak logical argument, and is often used to distract the focus of a discussion - to move it from an indefensible point (Kirito is a supposed Sue) and attack the opponent (Aphrah, since you seem to be ignorign me).

The fact that you must resort to this should be evident enough that your position cannot hold.

One last thought before I go: The yardstick that you use? Apply it to any one of the Avengers in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and you'd get a whole team of Sues. Yet The Avengers was regarded as one of the most entertaining films of this year. Think about that.

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~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.