http://www.navytimes.com/article/20130813/NEWS/308130021/MCPON-orders-chief-season-st A couple of comments on this. I bet this was started because someone complained that they were cursed at or something along those lines. Also, it seems that he has been making changes just for the sake of change. The article implies that the MCPON is actually issuing a General Order;I thought that the position was to function as an advisor to the CNO. If anyone should be issuing orders then it should be from the CNO, since he’s his immediate boss. I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time, but it just doesn't seem right to me.

Ripcord

08-14-2013, 02:37 AM

Stupid question. What is Chief-Season?

BURAWSKI

08-14-2013, 03:14 AM

Stupid question. What is Chief-Season?

It is training of First Class Petty Officers for Chief Petty Officer promotion. I just posted the comment because it seems to me that the MCPON is circumventing all of the CMC's and CPO's by ordering a stand down. With all of the experience of the Master Chief Petty Officers why would he need to order a stand down???

Vrake

08-14-2013, 04:05 AM

It is training of First Class Petty Officers for Chief Petty Officer promotion. I just posted the comment because it seems to me that the MCPON is circumventing all of the CMC's and CPO's by ordering a stand down. With all of the experience of the Master Chief Petty Officers why would he need to order a stand down???

IMHO He could give a rats ass what the mess thinks and proves it by his actions.

His message said he had a massive two reports/phone calls because feelings were hurt. Instead of doing an investigation, an all stop was easier. And they were anonymous at that!!

Since the process is so transparent how many more stoppages will we have because someone doesn't want to play? His message even said the tone should not change from phase one to phase two so there will no yelling or any other feelings hurting actions. Hell in San Dog you see Sea cadets and high school football players treated worse.

If this CPO 365 thing works so well then why do they have to be tried/tested and accepted? MCPON says its mandatory so everyone will get a pass anyway least the numbers suck.

**edit Let us just be done with it and put it where you want it sooner then later. Stop trying to put everything on the "mess to train the First Classes then blame it on that mess when things go wrong.

It will hurt for a minute and we will be over it. A two or three week formal school followed by dinner and a handshake. It is where it's going anyway lets just get it over with. Then we can get on to more important things like college degrees and volunteer work.

E-7 365 Class 001 enjoy your year.

^^^^^

*** re-re-edit the last stament was something I have heard multiple time over the last week. As always the mess will get the training done. Just what will the level of acceptance be? I would bet that now the first year of a new Chiefs time will be spent on catching up. Again my opinion don't have a dog in the fight anymore.

imported_WINTHORP1

08-14-2013, 08:03 AM

I was wondering how long it was going to take for this to happen.

Chief Bosun

08-14-2013, 12:37 PM

It is training of First Class Petty Officers for Chief Petty Officer promotion. I just posted the comment because it seems to me that the MCPON is circumventing all of the CMC's and CPO's by ordering a stand down. With all of the experience of the Master Chief Petty Officers why would he need to order a stand down???

Good question.

Without knowing the specifics of what happened, I don't thnk any of us can say with a degree of accuracy why this happened. I have heard a rumour that a couple of Chiefs went overboard when someone decided not to participate (their right) and tried to persuade them to take part in an inappropriate manner, instead of realizing there are times when "no" means "no" and they need to deal with it.

I do realize that there are a lot of people in the Navy that would love to shut the events that go on at this time of year down. I would not be surprised to see one day an order come down shutting the entire process down, with the result 16 Sept. simply is another work day, with the only difference being a Sailor who got advanced to Chief would simply reach into their locker and pull out a NWU blouse and cover with anchors on them instead of a First Class crow before heading off to morning quarters (do they even do such a thing as quarters anymore?).

BURAWSKI

08-14-2013, 06:07 PM

Good question.

Without knowing the specifics of what happened, I don't thnk any of us can say with a degree of accuracy why this happened. I have heard a rumour that a couple of Chiefs went overboard when someone decided not to participate (their right) and tried to persuade them to take part in an inappropriate manner, instead of realizing there are times when "no" means "no" and they need to deal with it.

I do realize that there are a lot of people in the Navy that would love to shut the events that go on at this time of year down. I would not be surprised to see one day an order come down shutting the entire process down, with the result 16 Sept. simply is another work day, with the only difference being a Sailor who got advanced to Chief would simply reach into their locker and pull out a NWU blouse and cover with anchors on them instead of a First Class crow before heading off to morning quarters (do they even do such a thing as quarters anymore?).

It is sad. I don't understand why the MCPON couldn't address this with the CPO Mess instead of suspending the training (and thereby making an issue out of which reflects poorly on the CPO Mess). I mean really. It is bad publicity that could have been handled WITHIN the CPO Community instead of going off in a high-handed manner like that. Am I cookoo or living in the Twilight Zone? Apparently.

B. M. BURAWSKI
Chief Yeoman, U.S. Navy (Ret.)

Pullinteeth

08-14-2013, 06:12 PM

http://www.navytimes.com/article/20130813/NEWS/308130021/MCPON-orders-chief-season-st A couple of comments on this. I bet this was started because someone complained that they were cursed at or something along those lines. Also, it seems that he has been making changes just for the sake of change. The article implies that the MCPON is actually issuing a General Order;I thought that the position was to function as an advisor to the CNO. If anyone should be issuing orders then it should be from the CNO, since he’s his immediate boss. I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time, but it just doesn't seem right to me.

You would think they would know better since there isn't a single enlisted member than can issue an order.... I do find it amusing that he thinks changing the nomenclature will solve the problem...

"He also “sundowned” the term “induction” as it was too often associated with inappropriate behavior."

job1037

08-14-2013, 08:20 PM

If as stated, there were 2 complaints at a cpo mess, then why would you punish all cpo messes? is this the same as having 2 drunks on a tincan in japan and turning that into a major restriction on the liberty for the whole 7th fleet? --- by the way, another dumb question (sorta) does this cpo 365 deal really include uniform fitting? when during this great leadership training session do you people get to the potty training our future leaders?

4CECMC

08-14-2013, 08:29 PM

Messmates I am here to tell you that it will not stop here. When a person has very little CPO Mess leadership "at sea" and has spent way more time eating in the wardroom than with his fellow Shipmates, it's only a matter of time until this time honored and very important tradition becomes equal to what those in the USA/USAF/USMC and USCG undergo, a handshake and a picture. Stand by for heavy rolls brothers and sisters, there is a wolf in sheep clothing amongst us..........

4CECMC

08-14-2013, 08:31 PM

He's following a very tough act in MCPON West and he just isn't up to the task. Looking for an opportunity to write his legacy and this is where it starts - mark my words here.

Chief Bosun

08-15-2013, 01:06 PM

You would think they would know better sincethere isn't a single enlisted member than can issue an order.... I do find it amusing that he thinks changing the nomenclature will solve the problem...

"He also “sundowned” the term “induction” as it was too often associated with inappropriate behavior."

Where you getting that one from, shipmate?

Last time I looked, I'm enlisted. I just reviewed the UCMJ, and there is an article in there that addressess disobeying the lawful order of a warrant officer, non-commissioned officer, or petty officer. The warrant is a commissioned officer; the other two are definitely enlisted. I think that means I can give a subordinate an order and have the backing of the chain of command if they choose to ignore it.

BURAWSKI

08-15-2013, 02:53 PM

Where you getting that one from, shipmate?

Last time I looked, I'm enlisted. I just reviewed the UCMJ, and there is an article in there that addressess disobeying the lawful order of a warrant officer, non-commissioned officer, or petty officer. The warrant is a commissioned officer; the other two are definitely enlisted. I think that means I can give a subordinate an order and have the backing of the chain of command if they choose to ignore it.

I think he is talking about General Orders that affect policy and are normally issued from CNO, SECNAV, etc. to Commanders, Commanding Officers. The MCPON has done just that because the policy affects all commands.

Stalwart

08-15-2013, 02:58 PM

... it's only a matter of time until this time honored and very important tradition becomes equal to what those in the USA/USAF/USMC and USCG undergo, a handshake and a picture ...

I was a GySgt in the Marine Corps, there is more to becoming a SNCO in the USMC than a handshake and a photo.

Pullinteeth

08-15-2013, 03:59 PM

Where you getting that one from, shipmate?

Last time I looked, I'm enlisted. I just reviewed the UCMJ, and there is an article in there that addressess disobeying the lawful order of a warrant officer, non-commissioned officer, or petty officer. The warrant is a commissioned officer; the other two are definitely enlisted. I think that means I can give a subordinate an order and have the backing of the chain of command if they choose to ignore it.

I stand corrected... I had always been told that Enlisted could direct but not order... I was told wrong.

Chief Bosun

08-15-2013, 05:18 PM

I stand corrected... I had always been told that Enlisted could direct but not order... I was told wrong.

Not a problem.

Lots of stuff gets passed along that may/may not be accurate.

I myself had to look it up to make sure.

4CECMC

08-15-2013, 06:52 PM

Stalwart, (Gunny) - my apologies, you are correct, my intent was not to disrespect your or anyone else's service. Having a Son who recently promoted to E-8 in the USA and also having served with MEU 22, I certainly am aware of the differences between services in the transition from E-6 to E-7. The CPO initiation, (induction, transition, CPO365 whatever you want to call it) process in the Navy is steeped in tradition and heritage and is without question the single greatest achievement in the professional life of a Sailor. Again, not to discount your own accomplishments, or the accomplishments of others in this forum, but the Navy puts their enlisted folks through a completely different process than each of the other services, including the folks in DHS. Thanks for your outstanding service, I am grateful for it.

Stalwart

08-15-2013, 07:13 PM

No worries.

You are right, each service has it's own way of growing and training senior enlisted leaders. Both CMC's on my last ship included me in some of the induction/transition/CPO365 along with the Warrants and (prior Chief) LDOs (me being the prior Marine they didn't let me lead PT more than once) and won't discount the tradition and importance of what is done there. I am a better officer (& person) based on a couple of truly outstanding Chiefs I have known along the way & my job is always easier when I have a good Chief doing what they do.

BURAWSKI

08-15-2013, 07:47 PM

I'm hoping that most will agree that the changes that have occurred over the last few years have not helped in the transitioning to Chief Petty Officer. Too many changes if you ask me. I was initiated in 1991. I didn't see anything wrong with the initiation process then, although there were some areas that needed to be addressed and could have been done internally (i.e., within the CPO Community) without involving the entire Navy and those on the outside to boot. And every year even more changes are made to this process. Why? Is it really necessary? I think not. And these changes are NOT being initiated from within the CPO Community; they are coming from the outside. And the MCPON is making all these changes unilaterally. He is bringing bad publicity to the CPO Community and this could all have been handled within the CPO Mess. It's almost like he is purposely calling attention to himself and the CPO Community. It's a disgrace to look at his picture on the front of Navy Times appearing to make the CPO Mess look as bad as possible; no need to be airing all this dirty linen Navy-wide. What has he done to deal directly with the CPO Mess as well as other CMC's and MCPO's and to seek out their experience and advice?? He has circumvented all the experience of the CPO Mess. Not right at all.

B. M. Burawski
Chief Yeoman, U.S. Navy (Ret.)

4CECMC

08-16-2013, 07:38 PM

Burawski - agree with you 100%. Although I am not as seasoned as you, (initiated in 93); the changes are far too many. Spent 20 years on the Mess with my last 10 as a CMC. New MCPON is closely aligned with the wardroom and will bend with the wind - one of he reasons he was selected. MCPON 12 sort of got the ball rolling with flexing to the whimpering of the WR and MCPON 13 is not nearly as strong and will be even more susceptible to those whimpering's, (just look at the erosion of the Spouse Groups). Again, before MCPON 13 is done, it'll almost be a handshake and a photograph.

Pullinteeth

08-16-2013, 08:28 PM

Chief season really makes it sound like there is a time of year that the Navy allows you to hunt their E-7/E-8/E-9s....

Vrake

08-16-2013, 08:50 PM

Chief season really makes it sound like there is a time of year that the Navy allows you to hunt their E-7/E-8/E-9s....

Actually that's pretty close to what the MCPON is doing. CMCs will be shown the door if bad things happen under their watch.

Chief Bosun

09-10-2013, 03:58 PM

Gonna pull this one up again.

Navy Times now has a lead article on 12 selectees being hospitalized during PT and part of the story in the non-premium content was they were being told to push themselves.

Much more like this, and I can easily see the Navy consigning a separate ceremony and process for welcoming new members to the CPO Mess to the dumpster, and 16 September simply becoming another day except the folks selected for Chief get frocked in the same ceremony that E-6 and below are frocked in.

All because folks get carried away and fail to think before acting.

BURAWSKI

09-10-2013, 05:38 PM

Gonna pull this one up again.

Navy Times now has a lead article on 12 selectees being hospitalized during PT and part of the story in the non-premium content was they were being told to push themselves.

Much more like this, and I can easily see the Navy consigning a separate ceremony and process for welcoming new members to the CPO Mess to the dumpster, and 16 September simply becoming another day except the folks selected for Chief get frocked in the same ceremony that E-6 and below are frocked in.

All because folks get carried away and fail to think before acting.

Yes I believe it will end up just like that. Yes some folks got carried away and failed to think before acting, but the mentality of the Navy today is such that anyone who complains or becomes offended has their grievance elevated to the highest level instead of dealing with it at the lowest level in the chain of command to resolve. That is the indication that all (and I do mean all!) of the authority the CPO Mess once had has been taken away.

Chief Bosun

09-11-2013, 07:13 PM

Ski -

Agreed. I work with an active duty LSCM (former SK/AK) and we both are seeing the same thing now that these issues are ending up on the front page of Navy Times, being bumped up almost immediately to the highest level for action, and doubtless the subject of more than one P-4 message vice the way you and I were taught back in the day.

But then, before I left I was already seeing a trend towards not making a move without going "Mommy may I?" vice knowing the scope of your authority and the difference between issues you could handle without telling the DIVO, Dept. Head, etc., those you could handle and let them know after the fact what happened and what was done to correct it, and what you had to bump up the chain for action as you were well outside the scope of your authority in handling it.

Guess I'd best start looking for that rocking chair and a cold beer ...

Rusty Jones

09-11-2013, 07:37 PM

But then, before I left I was already seeing a trend towards not making a move without going "Mommy may I?" vice knowing the scope of your authority and the difference between issues you could handle without telling the DIVO, Dept. Head, etc., those you could handle and let them know after the fact what happened and what was done to correct it, and what you had to bump up the chain for action as you were well outside the scope of your authority in handling it.

Probably the #1 reason why I got out after 11 years. I tried making the exact same decisions that my LPO used to make at my previous sea command (I just came off of four years of shore duty), and boy did I learn. So I stepped back, and now I'm not stepping up enough.

I had enough the ambiguity, and decided that it was time to hang up the uniform.

Stalwart

09-11-2013, 07:51 PM

Chief's Season, training etc. is a sore subject in multiple sections of the Navy right now. Finding a way to balance what is necessary to get the selectee ready to assume greater responsibility and authority while not adversely impacting the mission (combating the limited number of hours in a day) is hard and something that personally frustrated me more than once.

Since transferring from the Marine Corps over 10 years ago I have often wondered why there is a lack of responsibility and leadership training for most of our Sailors until they are selected for Chief. As a result of progressively assigning responsibility, teaching leadership and formal training at things such as Corporal’s Courses and the Sergeant’s Course I see that the average Cpl or Sgt is just as proficient and is a superior leader to the average 3rd, 2nd or 1st Class Petty Officer and as I subjectively compare SNCOs and Chiefs I don't think either one has cornered the market on technical & tactical proficiency or leadership, but a newly promoted SSgt (yes an E6 -- but that is where the Marines make that break) hits the ground running much faster than the newly frocked Chief – and they do it without being largely absent from their duties for the previous 6 weeks.

CaliMC

09-11-2013, 11:11 PM

How about we take a good look at the activities that are taking time and energy away from both the workplace and the transition process? First and foremost, why all the fundraising? Since the mid-90's, the CPO initiation/transition/ whateveryoucallit season has centered around fundraising. Personally, I find it offensive to see CPO selectees jumping around like teenage cheer team members for a "CPO SELECTEE CAR WASH". Where is the dignity in that? It used to be that CPO's handled their business in the mess. Now it seems like everyone in the command, from junior enlisted to senior officers, is involved in the process. Today's CPO's need to get back to basics. An example: What was the purpose for the "charge book"? We were responsible for creating our own (believe me, mine looks like I made it), now the selectees have them professionally made as if they were a trophy. Somehow making Chief created a sub-industry of plaques, books, hatboxes and the like. Back to basics, I say.

BURAWSKI

09-12-2013, 01:48 AM

Basically it is exactly as you say Master Chief. I can't understand why MCPON is issuing press releases from his office with Navy Times reporting his thoughts on how the CPO Mess should be dealing with CPO training. That is something needing to be handled WITHIN the CPO Mess. In fact, all of these problems that he is airing in public should be handled by him working THROUGH the individual CMC's and Fleet & Force Master Chiefs and leave the publicity out of it. After all, isn't that what they are there for?? I've been scratching my head about that one. I'm quite sure all of the active duty CPO's agree with me on this. I do remember him saying something to the effect that he is trying to change the CPO Mess from being a fraternal organization. Why? I have no idea and he has not articulated a reason for wanting to do something like that which would be of any benefit whatsoever to the Navy.

job1037

09-12-2013, 11:09 AM

Spot on Chief, the MCPON is playing politics with his management (not leadership)of the mess.

Chief Bosun

09-12-2013, 01:57 PM

Yes, it would appear so. However, once these incidents became public, he had to do something to show the issue was being taken seriously lest allegations of a cover-up arose, which in turn basically drives all the nails into the coffin.

Do I agree with everything he has done to deal with this? No. But then, I don't have access to all of the information he had in deciding how to deal with this debacle.

BURAWSKI

09-12-2013, 03:29 PM

The publicity made it a debacle. I don't think it needed to be publicized as much, but rather simply handle it within the CPO Mess. He is not dealing within the mess but using the media. Whatever happened to closed door resolutions? Everybody doesn't need to be involved in CPO training, and certainly not the wardroom.

Rusty Jones

09-12-2013, 03:53 PM

Here's my question... what about your Coast Guard brethren? I don't hear anything about their CPO initiation being done away with or drawing attention because of things going on that aren't kosher... and many Navy CPOs have been initiated through the Coast Guard.

...aren't their any "good practices" or "lessons learned" that the Navy has followed, or could follow, from the Coast Guard?

Chief Bosun

09-12-2013, 05:13 PM

Here's my question... what about your Coast Guard brethren? I don't hear anything about their CPO initiation being done away with or drawing attention because of things going on that aren't kosher... and many Navy CPOs have been initiated through the Coast Guard.

...aren't their any "good practices" or "lessons learned" that the Navy has followed, or could follow, from the Coast Guard?

Very good question, and to be honest I am not versed in their traditions to talk about the differences between us or what they have experienced that we can learn from.