Sorry to keep coming back to this, but this is exactly what I mean. Dref, let me ask you a question. How much spirit did you gain since your mastery/int build? And do you know how many more rejuvs you're now able to cast with your extra spirit?

I'm currently at 12K spirit which is 4k more than before.
It was calculated in a earlier post; its a few more / minute, I can look it up and update with a specific number if you like.

But basically its more forgiving if I waste mana now with a spirit build compared to when I had the int / mastery one.

I'm currently at 12K spirit which is 4k more than before.
It was calculated in a earlier post; its a few more / minute, I can look it up and update with a specific number if you like.

But basically its more forgiving if I waste mana now with a spirit build compared to when I had the int / mastery one.

So this is my point. the 4k spirit you gained will give you 16 more rejuvenations over 6 minutes. Let's take Magaera as an example. With 16 more rejuvs you can blanket the entire raid (10 man) for 1 rampage, and another 6 players for another rampage. Now, that's not bad but on the other hand that's ALL you get. That's all you get from 4000 spirit. Wouldn't you much rather increase ALL your healing done by a couple of % for the entirety of the fight?

Again, what I'm trying to say is: you might think that you get more mana out of stacking that much spirit. And you do, but in reality it's not that much. You might need the extra rejuvs for heroic progression, but holding back on a few rejuvs and stacking mastery instead of spirit might be better. Even for demanding heroic progress.

So this is my point. the 4k spirit you gained will give you 16 more rejuvenations over 6 minutes. Let's take Magaera as an example. With 16 more rejuvs you can blanket the entire raid (10 man) for 1 rampage, and another 6 players for another rampage. Now, that's not bad but on the other hand that's ALL you get. That's all you get from 4000 spirit. Wouldn't you much rather increase ALL your healing done by a couple of % for the entirety of the fight?

Again, what I'm trying to say is: you might think that you get more mana out of stacking that much spirit. And you do, but in reality it's not that much. You might need the extra rejuvs for heroic progression, but holding back on a few rejuvs and stacking mastery instead of spirit might be better. Even for demanding heroic progress.

I changed to spirit because I had problems with keeping the raid up.
On Tortos I changed to a spirit build to put out more Rejuvs on the raids and my Hps actually increased.

The biggest diffrence between the two stat priorities I felt is that I can now push out more raw rejuvs and that the extra % Mastery would have given me has not effected my Hps in a bad way.
Even if I could potentially push out more numbers with a int / mastery build, the spirit build allows me and my raid members to make more mistakes.

I do not care to much about getting top ranks, I play with a Disc and a Paladin and If I would want good ranks I would have to ask them to stop using shields :P

I changed to spirit because I had problems with keeping the raid up.
On Tortos I changed to a spirit build to put out more Rejuvs on the raids and my Hps actually increased.

The biggest diffrence between the two stat priorities I felt is that I can now push out more raw rejuvs and that the extra % Mastery would have given me has not effected my Hps in a bad way.
Even if I could potentially push out more numbers with a int / mastery build, the spirit build allows me and my raid members to make more mistakes.

I do not care to much about getting top ranks, I play with a Disc and a Paladin and If I would want good ranks I would have to ask them to stop using shields :P

I'm not talking about rankings I'm talking about druids stacking spirit thinking it'll give them a lot more spells to cast. Which isn't really true. Heroics or not
And your Tortos HPS increase could come from a number of different reasons. Maybe your Paladin and Priest didn't shield so many people that particular kill.

I'm not talking about rankings I'm talking about druids stacking spirit thinking it'll give them a lot more spells to cast. Which isn't really true. Heroics or not
And your Tortos HPS increase could come from a number of different reasons. Maybe your Paladin and Priest didn't shield so many people that particular kill.

Depends on how you look at it
I do roll more rejuvs regardless of incomming raid dmg to stack up my Mushrooms.
If I did this with Mastery / Int build this would hurt me a lot

But once I get my close to bis gear I will change towards a more int / mastery stacked build just because I will not go oom with this build anymore with my base regen being much higher than in my Ilvl 513 gear :P

Here are two posts that brought up what we are kinda discussing.
As you may see I was all for Int / Mastery back in 5.1

Depends on how you look at it
I do roll more rejuvs regardless of incomming raid dmg to stack up my Mushrooms.
If I did this with Mastery / Int build this would hurt me a lot

But once I get my close to bis gear I will change towards a more int / mastery stacked build just because I will not go oom with this build anymore with my base regen being much higher than in my Ilvl 513 gear :P

Here are two posts that brought up what we are kinda discussing.
As you may see I was all for Int / Mastery back in 5.1

Not really sure what you're trying to say with those posts. I read through them regardless, back when they were written.

I must say, I do agree that rejuv has gotten stronger since then. And therefor you get more out of the spirit you stacked.

But I'm sorry, I still fail to see why druids stack spirit in order to get through an encounter. Will your 16 rejuvs over an entire fight change much? I'm not so sure.

If I was better at math, I'd figure this out myself, but as of right now, I'm waiting for someone to tell me exactly why I should stack spirit instead of mastery if I was to do heroics. Something else than "You need to spam more rejuvs in heroics". I'm aware about the need of HPS, I'm just not sure that the HPS should come from 4k spirit (16 rejuvs). Am I missing something here?

Either way, it's probably not a huge difference. But I'd just like to know if druids stack spirit 'cus it actually helps them beat a heroic encounter or because they think it helps them.

Will your 16 rejuvs over an entire fight change much? I'm not so sure.

There are heroic encounters where this can make a difference. Many bosses have burst phases where you need to have a rejuv up on everyone, and those are pretty frequent. On Tortos, almost the entire fight works like that. Your 16 more rejuvs are not negligible, as you said yourself this is 1.6 times blanketing the raid. And believe me, there are fights where you can easily burn your mana. On Tortos hc, you need 125-150k HPS to successfully heal it. You cannot do that by playing smart and saving rejuvs.

However, imo the whole discussion is moot because there is not spirit vs. mastery option. It could be spirit vs. haste, or spirit vs. crit. For my ~520 gear, I fully gemmed throughput and reforged for mastery, and I have almost 12k spirit. It is not possible to reduce spirit for more mastery, I could only get haste or crit. So, no point really comparing them.

There are heroic encounters where this can make a difference. Many bosses have burst phases where you need to have a rejuv up on everyone, and those are pretty frequent. On Tortos, almost the entire fight works like that. Your 16 more rejuvs are not negligible, as you said yourself this is 1.6 times blanketing the raid. And believe me, there are fights where you can easily burn your mana. On Tortos hc, you need 125-150k HPS to successfully heal it. You cannot do that by playing smart and saving rejuvs.

Basically this.
I find my self needing the extra rejuvs I get from the extra spirit. People are not dying because my rejuv heals 3%less / tick, people die when we go oom.
And that is why I'm Spirit instead of Int / Mastery

Many bosses have burst phases where you need to have a rejuv up on everyone, and those are pretty frequent. On Tortos, almost the entire fight works like that. Your 16 more rejuvs are not negligible, as you said yourself this is 1.6 times blanketing the raid. And believe me, there are fights where you can easily burn your mana. On Tortos hc, you need 125-150k HPS to successfully heal it. You cannot do that by playing smart and saving rejuvs.

Yeah, the entire fight. But you can only blanket the raid once (10 man). Lets be generous and say twice, since I'd assume most encounters lasts more than 6 min. Now I'm not saying that's bad. But those two Quakes that you rejuv blanketted is hardly what makes you do 125-150k sustained HPS. I'd much rather rejuv blanket, say 80% of the raid throughout the fight (during mechanics, not all the time ) and go with lower spirit.

Originally Posted by Thalur

However, imo the whole discussion is moot because there is not spirit vs. mastery option. It could be spirit vs. haste, or spirit vs. crit. For my ~520 gear, I fully gemmed throughput and reforged for mastery, and I have almost 12k spirit. It is not possible to reduce spirit for more mastery, I could only get haste or crit. So, no point really comparing them.

One could pick items with more spirit over items with mastery. Or items with blue sockets over items with yellow sockets. There's the spirit vs. int meta gem. You could reforge out of mastery into spirit if you had an item with no spirit on it (although that's probably not going to happen, but still). Unless I've missed something here, there's a few ways to stack spirit at the expence of mastery.

You can't keep asking the question "Would you rather have X Rejuvs or MOAR healing?" without defining what MOAR is.

1k mastery is basically 2% more healing. In my 521 ilvl gear, 16 Rejuvs over the course of a 6 min fight is something like 9090 HPS (just put up Harmony and cast a Rejuv on myself, multiplied it by 16, divided it by 360) -- if that's 8% of your healing you need 113k HPS for Mastery to be better than Spirit in a napkin mathy way.

I feel at those numbers there's no wrong answer.
--

As far as a BiS guide, there's no need really. It would probably be more of a hindrance than a help. As an example, there are 4 Main Hands with a combination of Spirit/Haste/Mastery and they all have a socket. The differences between them are so minor it's not really worth thinking twice about which one is "BiS" and getting hung up on acquiring that one specifically -- I'd consider more your raid makeup than which one gives you different nudges of stats.

Will your 16 rejuvs over an entire fight change much? I'm not so sure.

I'd assume that people are trying to say, more and less, that it might change the fight quite a lot to be able to push out those extra 16 rejus for say those extra two Quakes rather than push out 4% (whatever the number) more healing on the previous Quakes and not being able to Reju the two last ones.

Unless people are seriously going to die not getting that extra 4% out of the Rejus you do get up during those Quakes (I know this is a tiny example but bare with me for the sake of arguement) you will certainly be of more use having mana for Rejuvenations for those two last Quakes, too, rather than leaving em hanging.

The scenarios there are fairly simple: a) have more mastery & less spirit, in which case you push out more healing out of the Rejuvenations you cast, but might not have mana for all of the Quakes which is, in my opinion, the worse option over
b) have more spirit & less mastery and heal a bit less with the Rejuvenations, but have the mana to cast those "weaker" rejuvenation throughout a longer period of time, ie: end of the fight.

Obviously it can't be laid down that simply, as some players have the ability to make their mana last longer than others (read: difference in playstyles) thus they might have all the mana in the world for all the Quakes, which is where the healing setup comes into play as well. But if you're going for a "guideline for dummies"- kinda reply, which is what some seem to be pointing at here, it would seem that having more spirit would allow one to throw Rejus around more freely where needed, as sometimes it's not about the quality of the heal, but the quantity, as the dmg is spread, rather than constant. Granted Tortos hc is a bit of an odd one out as there is next to no overhealing.

Edit: I also realize very well that mastery affects more than just Rejuvenations, but it barely changes the "quality vs quantity" arguement.

I'd assume that people are trying to say, more and less, that it might change the fight quite a lot to be able to push out those extra 16 rejus for say those extra two Quakes rather than push out 4% (whatever the number) more healing on the previous Quakes and not being able to Reju the two last ones.

Unless people are seriously going to die not getting that extra 4% out of the Rejus you do get up during those Quakes (I know this is a tiny example but bare with me for the sake of arguement) you will certainly be of more use having mana for Rejuvenations for those two last Quakes, too, rather than leaving em hanging.

The scenarios there are fairly simple: a) have more mastery & less spirit, in which case you push out more healing out of the Rejuvenations you cast, but might not have mana for all of the Quakes which is, in my opinion, the worse option over
b) have more spirit & less mastery and heal a bit less with the Rejuvenations, but have the mana to cast those "weaker" rejuvenation throughout a longer period of time, ie: end of the fight.

Obviously it can't be laid down that simply, as some players have the ability to make their mana last longer than others (read: difference in playstyles) thus they might have all the mana in the world for all the Quakes, which is where the healing setup comes into play as well. But if you're going for a "guideline for dummies"- kinda reply, which is what some seem to be pointing at here, it would seem that having more spirit would allow one to throw Rejus around more freely where needed, as sometimes it's not about the quality of the heal, but the quantity, as the dmg is spread, rather than constant. Granted Tortos hc is a bit of an odd one out as there is next to no overhealing.

Edit: I also realize very well that mastery affects more than just Rejuvenations, but it barely changes the "quality vs quantity" arguement.

Your scenarios simply assume more healing doesn't help at all, so spirit is better.
It's like saying 2 rejuvs do not help at all so I can conclude that mastery is better.
If 4% healing doesn't help at all, how about 8%? 10%? 20%?

It depends on gear level, play style, the encounter and your raid members.

My "assumption" was merely that sometimes it doesnt help to be able to heal for 100k once, rather than twice for much less, if the damage comes in two separated events. Again, simplified.

It depends on gear level, play style, the encounter and your raid members.

Agreed that my wall of text was semi tldr material, but I did specifically say:

Obviously it can't be laid down that simply, as some players have the ability to make their mana last longer than others (read: difference in playstyles) thus they might have all the mana in the world for all the Quakes, which is where the healing setup comes into play as well.

Rating spirit based on the exact amount of spells it gives you is way too simple, because you need to factor in the amount of mana regen you get while spending that mana. While you are casting those 16 rejuvs, you get several swiftmends, most likely several clearcast procs, probably a legendary meta proc, regen from your spirit, and you'll be getting closer towards your next mana regain ability(innervate, trinket).

Spirit isn't so much about getting x more amount of spells, it's about avoiding getting into that deadzone where you're out of mana and the raid is taking a ton of damage. While I understand the idea of healing more = having to heal less, this doesn't always apply. Especially in heroic modes, you often have to disregard how much exactly your spells heal for, and just start blanketing the raid, because shit is about to hit the fan.

This is why everyone says "get as much as you feel comfortable with". People play differently, in different situations, with different raidgroups and different fellow healers. There is no exact science here.

One could pick items with more spirit over items with mastery. Or items with blue sockets over items with yellow sockets. There's the spirit vs. int meta gem. You could reforge out of mastery into spirit if you had an item with no spirit on it (although that's probably not going to happen, but still). Unless I've missed something here, there's a few ways to stack spirit at the expence of mastery.

There are exactly two slots where you have a choice between two items on heroic gear level, for everything else, there is exactly one item you want to have. There is no choice of items for focusing on mastery vs. spirit, same goes for sockets. Also, there is one meta gem you use and there is no discussion about it at all. (Hint: it's legendary.) There is no reasonable choice of items without spirit, as all of them have crit on them.
The only place to choose between spirit and throughput are gems, and I would always advise to gem for throughput. You still have lots of spirit anyway. It's a different story for entry level gear, but with heroic gear, there is no choice between mastery and spirit.