The Three and the Angiris - Are they equal?

I was just reminded that Inarius was indeed at one point in time a fully fledged member of the Angiris Council. This is interesting, for it means that one of the highest ranking angels has fallen. Not just Izual who's just a regular angel, but truly on of the big five (or big 6 apparently).

Alright, so fallen is not the exact right word, Inarius did not in any way side with Hell, and the manner of Inarius corruption was not done by demonic influence, but rather by himself, further setting him apart from Izual. However it still reveals that the top leaders of Heaven are not infallible.

The immediate question that pops into my mind after such a revelation is: Are the Three then infallible?

I discussed this in the past prior to the release of the Sin War trilogy, though that partcular discussion pertained to whether or not lesser demons could be "un-corrupted", meaning turn their aid to Heaven, a reverse of what happened to Izual. Now I bring this question in regards to the Prime Evils.

Inarius betrayed his brethren. He left Heaven and set out to shape his own domain, and later warred with Heaven. He became the enemy. However not like this has ever happened in Hell. For all their supposed corrupting forces, lust for power, chaotic minds and whatnot, there is no record of the Three ever fighting each other. Surprisingly enough, the most evil are also the most unified.

Why is this? Is it simply because there has never been any reason for the Three to disagree with each other, or is it that they share some sort of brotherly bond? Is their corrupting nature fool-proof protection against the wickedness they spread to others?

If they cannot falter in their union, then I think we have a serious balance issue here. If the Three are infallible, but the Angiris council is not, then it should only be a matter of time before Heaven loses. Make war a couple of more eternities, and eventually all angels will have scattered, and the Three win. Piece of cake.

Or perhaps only Inaruis was to blame here. Was something in his being imperfect, which caused him to leave Heaven? If so, then we have to ask ourselves why he was in the Council to begin with. I've always imagined te Council to always have been there, even at the beginnng of Heaven, whenever that was. But perhaps the leaders in Heaven were elected somehow? That would offer an explanation as to why Inaruis failed, but would leave a lot of questions as to how Heaven really works and functions.

PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.

I was just reminded that Inarius was indeed at one point in time a fully fledged member of the Angiris Council. This is interesting, for it means that one of the highest ranking angels has fallen. Not just Izual who's just a regular angel, but truly on of the big five (or big 6 apparently).

Alright, so fallen is not the exact right word, Inarius did not in any way side with Hell, and the manner of Inarius corruption was not done by demonic influence, but rather by himself, further setting him apart from Izual. However it still reveals that the top leaders of Heaven are not infallible.

The immediate question that pops into my mind after such a revelation is: Are the Three then infallible?

I discussed this in the past prior to the release of the Sin War trilogy, though that partcular discussion pertained to whether or not lesser demons could be "un-corrupted", meaning turn their aid to Heaven, a reverse of what happened to Izual. Now I bring this question in regards to the Prime Evils.

Inarius betrayed his brethren. He left Heaven and set out to shape his own domain, and later warred with Heaven. He became the enemy. However not like this has ever happened in Hell. For all their supposed corrupting forces, lust for power, chaotic minds and whatnot, there is no record of the Three ever fighting each other. Surprisingly enough, the most evil are also the most unified.

Why is this? Is it simply because there has never been any reason for the Three to disagree with each other, or is it that they share some sort of brotherly bond? Is their corrupting nature fool-proof protection against the wickedness they spread to others?

If they cannot falter in their union, then I think we have a serious balance issue here. If the Three are infallible, but the Angiris council is not, then it should only be a matter of time before Heaven loses. Make war a couple of more eternities, and eventually all angels will have scattered, and the Three win. Piece of cake.

Or perhaps only Inaruis was to blame here. Was something in his being imperfect, which caused him to leave Heaven? If so, then we have to ask ourselves why he was in the Council to begin with. I've always imagined te Council to always have been there, even at the beginnng of Heaven, whenever that was. But perhaps the leaders in Heaven were elected somehow? That would offer an explanation as to why Inaruis failed, but would leave a lot of questions as to how Heaven really works and functions.

"Make war a couple of more eternities"
I lol'd at this.

From the cinematics, where we get to see the three brothers' character more defined I think i am going to agree with the whole "brotherly love" thing. It is very clear that when Diablo takes over the warrior that on his venture with Marius he is pissed people are messing with his dear siblings. When he speaks of his brothers it seems more endearing rather than him just freeing them so they can continue their chaos. The three to me come off as very close, their family ties run deep, but what of the angels? The council seems to be doing a "job" rather than really personalizing the situation like the three. It seems more of a professional environment for the angels rather than the very personal level for the 3 brothers. And I think that raises another question. Where are the family ties in heaven? The heavens have a "council" but what does the hells have? They have a brotherhood. A more relateable scenario. So I think it could be safe to assume that through the power of the three brothers the war is a bit in favor of the brothers without factoring in the strength of their legions.

Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack

"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox

That would be funny if a powerful demon had OCD or was some kind of perfectionist. He would have this whole inner-struggle with himself to try to accept things as 'imperfect and chaotic', but eventually he would realise that he belongs in Heaven where everything is perfect and nothing is out of place. Heaven would be where he would truly belong because his Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder would allow him to fit right in, lol.

The council seems to be doing a "job" rather than really personalizing the situation like the three. It seems more of a professional environment for the angels rather than the very personal level for the 3 brothers. And I think that raises another question. Where are the family ties in heaven? The heavens have a "council" but what does the hells have? They have a brotherhood. A more relateable scenario. So I think it could be safe to assume that through the power of the three brothers the war is a bit in favor of the brothers without factoring in the strength of their legions.

That's a very good point I think. If Heaven represents Order and Hell Chaos, then a job would represent the orderly and law abiding approach to leadership, while family ties and blood would represent the chaotic aspect of leadership.

This leaves us with an unanswered question however. You're not elected a brother, but you are elected/hired for a job. Who hired the Angiris Council?

Quote from "Atrumentis" »

That would be funny if a powerful demon had OCD or was some kind of perfectionist. He would have this whole inner-struggle with himself to try to accept things as 'imperfect and chaotic', but eventually he would realise that he belongs in Heaven where everything is perfect and nothing is out of place. Heaven would be where he would truly belong because his Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder would allow him to fit right in, lol.

It sounds hilarious, but had this been a parelell universe or something rather than a game set to enthrall and entertain human beings, I wouldn't call it far-fetched. However, how many people would take a plot like that seriously?

PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.

Tyrael and Inarius are 'brothers'. Um, I can't find the quote, but I know they are. Tyrael just refers to Inarius as 'brother', though I'm pretty sure someone also says something about them not being brothers as humans are, but more like really close friends or really similar personalities type of brothers. I think MD said something about them being brothers in his The Veiled Prophet review.

That's a very good point I think. If Heaven represents Order and Hell Chaos, then a job would represent the orderly and law abiding approach to leadership, while family ties and blood would represent the chaotic aspect of leadership.

This leaves us with an unanswered question however. You're not elected a brother, but you are elected/hired for a job. Who hired the Angiris Council?

Thats a great question..that i think will never be answered lol. Since most of our lore is from the human perspective we wont even know that much. Lets say heaven gets owned in the end and by the end of like...diablo 5 the council is gone, i still dont think we will ever find out half of the secrets of the high heavens unless tyreal tellls us because it seems humans are out of the loop for the deeper secrets such as who elected the council.

Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack

"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox

Thats some really nice thinking. I too thought about the inevitability that Heaven will loose, then again maybe Hell will too. Maybe the 3 Prime Evils and (is it 6?) of Heaven are so blind in their conquest against eachother, they are so convinced of their own immortality, that the "fallen" angel Inarius is one of the few seeing beyond that, wich would make him play an extremely vital role. Enemy of all, looking for last hope in a mortal. (because mortals have enough fatality to understand this ultimate doom)

Heaven had Inarius, Hell has Lilith. She was an enemy of Hell just like Inarius to Heaven. Lucion dispises her. But I think there is something like a sibling love in the demon`s world. From what Lucion speaks of his sister I think if he(or his father) had cought her, he wouldn`t have killed her. Nevermind..

A note here, Izual didn`t get corrupted becouse he wanted to, he was cought and tortured by the Three Prime Evils themselves. As I think now, Izual was kind of controled with his spirit in that demon body.

As for a demon becoming on the side of Heaven, I think it isn`t in their nature, they can make a deal or two but alwasy with a backup tought on getting something for them.

Heaven had Inarius, Hell has Lilith. She was an enemy of Hell just like Inarius to Heaven. Lucion dispises her. But I think there is something like a sibling love in the demon`s world. From what Lucion speaks of his sister I think if he(or his father) had cought her, he wouldn`t have killed her. Nevermind..

A note here, Izual didn`t get corrupted becouse he wanted to, he was cought and tortured by the Three Prime Evils themselves. As I think now, Izual was kind of controled with his spirit in that demon body.

As for a demon becoming on the side of Heaven, I think it isn`t in their nature, they can make a deal or two but alwasy with a backup tought on getting something for them.

But its not usually in the nature for angels to go batass crazy and go off on a tangent, create another plain of existence and let it's inhabitance praise you. So I dont think anything is out of the question

Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack

"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox

Tyrael and Inarius are 'brothers'. Um, I can't find the quote, but I know they are. Tyrael just refers to Inarius as 'brother', though I'm pretty sure someone also says something about them not being brothers as humans are, but more like really close friends or really similar personalities type of brothers. I think MD said something about them being brothers in his The Veiled Prophet review.

Still, they do not appear to be brothers in the same sense as the Three, for Tyrael obviously parted ways with Inarius, perhaps not severing the bond they had, but burying it in the least.

Quote from "Umpa65" »

Thats a great question..that i think will never be answered lol. Since most of our lore is from the human perspective we wont even know that much. Lets say heaven gets owned in the end and by the end of like...diablo 5 the council is gone, i still dont think we will ever find out half of the secrets of the high heavens unless tyreal tellls us because it seems humans are out of the loop for the deeper secrets such as who elected the council.

Perhaps Trag'Oul would know something of it? If anyone is ever going to tell us anything about the origins of the Angiris Council, I think it will be him. Or a necromancer relaying his wisdom to us.

Quote from "Doppelganger" »

Thats some really nice thinking. I too thought about the inevitability that Heaven will loose, then again maybe Hell will too. Maybe the 3 Prime Evils and (is it 6?) of Heaven are so blind in their conquest against eachother, they are so convinced of their own immortality, that the "fallen" angel Inarius is one of the few seeing beyond that, wich would make him play an extremely vital role. Enemy of all, looking for last hope in a mortal. (because mortals have enough fatality to understand this ultimate doom)

I doubt Inarius would be able to take that step. Given how he views humans, and his own vanity, it seems we would rather face his own doom than cooperate with a human.

Quote from "Imperium" »

Heaven had Inarius, Hell has Lilith. She was an enemy of Hell just like Inarius to Heaven. Lucion dispises her. But I think there is something like a sibling love in the demon`s world. From what Lucion speaks of his sister I think if he(or his father) had cought her, he wouldn`t have killed her. Nevermind..

Right, but Lilith, while powerful, it only the daugher of a Prime Evil, not even considered a Lesser Evil. For all intents and purposes, she can be considered a "lesser" demon.

Inarius however was one of the six most powerful angels. He was a joint rules, a pillar upon which all of the High Heavens rested. At the top of existence however, he faltered. That's what sets him apart from all other side-switching we've seen in the history so far.

Quote from "Imperium" »

A note here, Izual didn`t get corrupted becouse he wanted to, he was cought and tortured by the Three Prime Evils themselves. As I think now, Izual was kind of controled with his spirit in that demon body.

That wasn't my point, and indeed I never said so. My mentioning of Izual was merely to illustrate the difference between his corruption and that of Inarius, that Izual had fallen because of the effects of Hell upon him, while Inarius had left the ranks of Heaven of his own volition.

Quote from "Imperium" »

As for a demon becoming on the side of Heaven, I think it isn`t in their nature, they can make a deal or two but alwasy with a backup tought on getting something for them.

Which again illustrates the imbalance between Heaven and Hell. If Heavenly creatures can fall, but Hellish cannot, then Hell has all but won already.

On the other hand however, there doesn't seem to be any back stabbing amongst the heavenly ranks, while the demons enjoy squabbling. If so, then why are the Three united?

PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.

But its not usually in the nature for angels to go batass crazy and go off on a tangent, create another plain of existence and let it's inhabitance praise you. So I dont think anything is out of the question

And its not usual for demons to want out of the chaos of war and settle down in a "sanctuary"

We have to remember that Sanctuary was a refuge for angels and demons. The inhabitants of sanctuary were both untrue to their nature's in forming sanctuary. I mean after all you have demons and angels falling in love. I think both sides are fallible and Sanctuary itself is proof.

The Brothers do show a loyalty to each other but they are the only demons. The Lesser evils betrayed the Prime (even if it was their plan) Then Belial and Azmodan turned on each other. Demons are chaos and they will always fight. As Trag'Oul speaks of...there must always be a balance. With Heaven gone, the Hells would just fight each other till all was destroyed.

Perhaps Trag'Oul would know something of it? If anyone is ever going to tell us anything about the origins of the Angiris Council, I think it will be him. Or a necromancer relaying his wisdom to us.

Right, but Lilith, while powerful, it only the daugher of a Prime Evil, not even considered a Lesser Evil. For all intents and purposes, she can be considered a "lesser" demon.

Good point, if anyone would ever tell us, which he may Trag'Oul would certainly relay the story to us when the time became appropriate.

As for Lilith being lesser she certainly has a lot of power as the object of ultimate lust. As Lucian put it, Lilith is the object of desire for every creature, human, demon, angel, she appealed to all.

Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack

"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox

I don't know enough about Inarius yet, but vanity seems to be, well extremely human and unlike anything of Heaven or Hell. Also the fatality he might have is again, very human. He's an oddball.

After all he is the father of all humans

Lilith can be considered a lesser evil. I think she was in that time. We haven`t heared of the lesser evils until the Dark Exile. Lilith vanished long before that. Even if she wasn`t back in time a lesser evil, only the fact that she`s the mother of Andariel puts her on a level above a lesser evil.

We have to remember that Sanctuary was a refuge for angels and demons. The inhabitants of sanctuary were both untrue to their nature's in forming sanctuary. I mean after all you have demons and angels falling in love. I think both sides are fallible and Sanctuary itself is proof.

That is certainly true.

Quote from "Archanum" »

The Brothers do show a loyalty to each other but they are the only demons. The Lesser evils betrayed the Prime (even if it was their plan) Then Belial and Azmodan turned on each other. Demons are chaos and they will always fight. As Trag'Oul speaks of...there must always be a balance. With Heaven gone, the Hells would just fight each other till all was destroyed.

Which is so strange. Why are the Three impervious to betrayal?

Quote from "Doppelganger" »

I don't know enough about Inarius yet, but vanity seems to be, well extremely human and unlike anything of Heaven or Hell. Also the fatality he might have is again, very human. He's an oddball.

For sure, which is why I suspect the Angiris Council might not have been established the Same way as the Prime Evils in terms of lordship over their respective realms. The Three ruling seems more like a natural force that is inescapable and inevitable shapes Hell accordingly, while the Angiris Council may be the other way around, having been haped byt the High Heavens instead.

Did that make any sense?

Quote from "Umpa65" »

As for Lilith being lesser she certainly has a lot of power as the object of ultimate lust. As Lucian put it, Lilith is the object of desire for every creature, human, demon, angel, she appealed to all.

I seriously doubt she would have been successful against Diablo though, or worse yet, her father.

PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.

That is certainly true.
I seriously doubt she would have been successful against Diablo though, or worse yet, her father.

Haha thats a big EW. Ya im sure Diablo and Mephisto dont exactly care about women atm. They may have a plan to settle down one (but still probably not with Lilith cuz that is very gross)day but right now it seems pwning them nooby angels is their main concern.

But to many then Lilith is sexy apparently, just ask Uldyssian.

Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack

"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox

While Lilith sure has a powerful father, she works through proxies. She snared Uldyssian and Inarius, but she lacks the power to stand on her own two feet in a moment of crisis. Not only are the Three immensely powerful in their own right, but they all possess powers in their domains (Hatred etc.) equal to that of Lilith, and they command hordes of unquestioning demons. Without a number of fortunate events playing in Lilith's favour, I cannot imagine her ever having a chance against the Three.

Quote from "Umpa65" »

Haha thats a big EW. Ya im sure Diablo and Mephisto dont exactly care about women atm. They may have a plan to settle down one (but still probably not with Lilith cuz that is very gross)day but right now it seems pwning them nooby angels is their main concern.

Don't say that. Apparently Mephisto and Auriel might have had thing for each other in the past.

PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.

I don't think they are, there is just no need for betrayal yet, then again i can't imagine chaos to be "reasonable" wich makes it all the more ironic how things go in Heaven.
What i think is that their methods may be different, but their idioms are just two sides of the same coin. I also have doubts about their conquest to destroy Terror and Destruction and Hate, i don't think their motivs are that much better then Destruction or Terror or Hate itself, and i can't think of the result of there being no Destruction or Terror or Hate being better then there being no heaven.
Sidetracking though.
Infact from the Prime Evils you atleast know what their goals are, i'm not so sure about the goals of others.

While Lilith sure has a powerful father, she works through proxies. She snared Uldyssian and Inarius, but she lacks the power to stand on her own two feet in a moment of crisis. Not only are the Three immensely powerful in their own right, but they all possess powers in their domains (Hatred etc.) equal to that of Lilith, and they command hordes of unquestioning demons. Without a number of fortunate events playing in Lilith's favour, I cannot imagine her ever having a chance against the Three.

Don't say that. Apparently Mephisto and Auriel might have had thing for each other in the past.

Where did you hear about the mephy and Auriel thing?

Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack

"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox