Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndromehttp://phoenixrising.me/research-2/the-brain-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs/choline-on-the-brain-a-guide-to-choline-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005
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Finding and identifying deficiencies while on SMP (Methylation Protocol)

I really hope to rely on actual experience here. There is information out there and I have found some but I want to know from real experience what I should look out for.

Freddd didn't know his copper was low until having to have all his upper (lower?) teeth removed due to. I think we're all used to feeling cruddy most of the time and some days worse than others. Most of the time I'm feeling bad I can take something and can be feeling much better with 15-20 minutes. Happened yesterday after taking a single 400IU of vitamin D.

Spinning up the main detox system of the body is going to require resources and then deplete them at a very advanced rate. I think this is why so many people have trouble and are even scared to try the SMP after running into a deficiency.

A deficiency in B12, for example, can cause very bad depression. I've experienced this when MethylTrapped (when apparently taking too much MFolate for the B12 I was taking) and a few times since. It's been hard to attach the symptom to the possible deficiency. With my genetics I'm supposed to use up B12 faster and not recycle it as well. This depression is very awful. A lack of folate can also cause depression I've found when taking only MB12 without MFolate. For me these two need to be balanced and even harder when you consider the paradoxical folate issue.

I've read on various forums in the past about people who were getting very good results from taking larger doses of B1. Maybe they induced a deficiency using supplements?

I had reasoned that B3 should be getting depleted when taking SMP supplements and believe I've experienced that myself. The reasoning was due to the fact that Niacin can be used to "mop up" methyl donors and slow methylation. By the same token methyl donors can "mop up" available Niacin.

I found this post which has a lot of good information about possible deficiencies:

I wanted to say that you CAN become iron deficient if you are vitamin B2 deficient. This becomes low under high phoshorus and high oxidative stress/low glutathione redox.

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The methylation posts continue to aid my health, I would give one word of warning which I give in my methylation, be very careful with methyl b12 as they are quick to push it on Freddd's forum but methyl b12 if you are malnourished is very bad, it lowers potassium, ceruloplasmin, b2, b6 - I have felt first hand the congestive heart problems with low potassium, and later I found out that low B2 causes low stomach acid so you become iron deficient! B12 is also very taxxing on your lipid membranes so it can alter your brain chemistry if you are low on oils and fats.

Also, we are all different. The SMP would be a disaster for me. It may be for you, too. Taking someone else's protocol can lead to unwanted effects as we all have different SNPs, levels of toxicity, etc. You need to figure out the best protocol for you.

Also, we are all different. The SMP would be a disaster for me. It may be for you, too. Taking someone else's protocol can lead to unwanted effects as we all have different SNPs, levels of toxicity, etc. You need to figure out the best protocol for you.

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@Learner1 Thank you! That was another question I was gonna have was about testing. Is this a test my doctor can draw blood for? I've always wondered about these labs that aren't local.

I did SMP a couple years back when I was guessing about histamine. Got up to 9mg MFolate and about half as much MB12. I didn't notice anything different. My genetics, from my understanding, didn't suggest I might have a methylation problem but possible should have a problem with low B12.

I quit that protocol cold turkey with no side effects. But a few weeks after I had about a 2 month cessation of all symptoms. I felt great and alive again, like my pre CFS self. I attributed it at the time to controlling histamine but haven't been able to reproduce. I suspect cranking up methylation cleared a toxic burden I deal with. I had a ton of mercury fillings growing up that have long since been replaced with non-metal but I suspect I likely have a mercury burden.

Your doctor can sign up with Genova to do the test. A kit would be sent to the doctors office and they would send you home with the urine collection. You freeze it and take to the doctor's and they draw the blood and send it back with a frozen brick that comes in the kit.

You and your doctor must follow all instructions exactly. I had my mom do it and her doctor wasn't working to do his part, but she was able to get it done at a local hospital who was able to follow instructions and send it in.

In the US, there's an Easy Pay program where you pay $159 up front and that's all. Good value for a test that's $2,000 list price.

It does have some heavy metal results and a general measure of toxicity to give you a clue if you have a problem.

A Doctors Data provoked urine heavy metals test is more detailed. You are given a chelator, like EDTA or DMSA, then fill up a urine container for a few hours then send in a sample. I believe its about $99.

You're probably right about mobilizing something you couldn't deal with. You need to have adequate water and fiber to eliminate, then ingredients for the transsulfuration pathway, then be making and recycling glutathione, the having the B12/methionine cycle working, and then add folate.

9mg of folate is a lot. Too much for most people. I have some folate SNPs, but still only need 1g of folate, but I need huge amounts of B12, B6, B2, B1, plus TMG, methionine, NAC, and glycine.

The important thing is you find what works for you. Finding and dealing with heavy metals can be really important. And getting methylation working smoothly is critical to good health.

I'm still fuzzy on how B-vitamins can become so depleted. Since they are water soluble we're going to need to get them regularly. I believe the liver holds on to B12 but not sure if other B's are stored in the body as well. If one is deficient in B1, for example, simply taking a good dose of B1 should fix the problem. Now that doesn't answer why the deficiency occurred in the first place. So with the possible exception of a B12 deficiency resolving a B-vitamin deficiency should be relatively easy.

There are many reasons your body mat be using them faster than other people.

Genetics, a toxic load, infections, mast cell activation, hemoglobin and sphingolipid synthesis, damaged mitochondrial membranes all can cause various B vitamins to be used at varying rates. Having adequate cofactors is essential, too.

I have uncovered a deficiency in Zinc! Something I did not expect but I found it just by supplementing Zinc by itself. Yesterday was the best day in a long time. Took one "OptiZinc" in the AM then another about 3pm. Wow what a day!

These deficiencies are scary and IMO probably the biggest reason the SMP doesn't work or even "harms" people. I can't tell you how bad I've felt for the last month and a half. I was just taking small amounts of MB12 and MFolate, about 800mcg of each per day.

Once you get deficient in something it can be very hard to identify and then how to correct it without becoming deficient in something else. (One such article referring to researcher Paul Eck) This article mentions supplementing in the correct ratio found in the body. Copper:Zinc is 1:8 so that's the recommendation (although it doesn't sound right. My Zinc pills come in 30mg while the copper is 3mg).

So to help the difficulty of identifying and correcting these deficiencies is where the testing can help. I'll try the test recommended by @Learner1 , hopefully my doctor is on board.

I've found no better test than the Genova Diagnostics NutrEval. It provides comprehensive, actionable information to fine tune your protocol, and I've seen some real surprises pop up, severe deficiencies and bottlenecks when we thought we were adequately supplementing.

Copper:Zinc is 1:8 so that's the recommendation (although it doesn't sound right. My Zinc pills come in 30mg while the copper is 3mg).

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My serum Zinc had been persistently at the low end of normal range, while Copper above the middle of the range. Therefore gradually increased Zinc till I got headaches from about 60 mg/d. 2 mg/d of Copper ceased the headache. However, after some years serum Copper shoot up above normal range, Zinc still at low end of normal. Staying below 1 mg/d of Copper seem to be the right strategy for me, and has brought serum Copper down to at least middle of range again.

One reason in my case might be, that it is much easier to get Copper than Zinc from diet. 4.2 mg/d of Copper and 13 mg/d of Zinc from diet alone in my case. In total with supplements 5.3 mg Copper and 58 mg of Zinc each day during the last 9 years. Zinc still at the low end of range.

My serum Zinc had been persistently at the low end of normal range, while Copper above the middle of the range. Therefore gradually increased Zinc till I got headaches from about 60 mg/d. 2 mg/d of Copper ceased the headache. However, after some years serum Copper shoot up above normal range, Zinc still at low end of normal. Staying below 1 mg/d of Copper seem to be the right strategy for me, and has brought serum Copper down to at least middle of range again.

One reason in my case might be, that it is much easier to get Copper than Zinc from diet. 4.2 mg/d of Copper and 13 mg/d of Zinc from diet alone in my case. In total with supplements 5.3 mg Copper and 58 mg of Zinc each day during the last 9 years. Zinc still at the low end of range.

I've found no better test than the Genova Diagnostics NutrEval. It provides comprehensive, actionable information to fine tune your protocol, and I've seen some real surprises pop up, severe deficiencies and bottlenecks when we thought we were adequately supplementing.

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One thing this has shown me is the power of boosting methylation. It seems to put your body in super detox mode but like an engine it's going to use up available fuel the faster it's pushed. I really don't see any other way than this type of testing to avoid the pitfalls. Since everyone is different the deficiencies will vary from person to person. Maybe one day by use of test data tied in with genetics information a table/database might be formed to allow someone to input their raw genetics and will tell them what they are likely to become deficient in when boosting methylation.

In my experience when these deficiencies hit it's pretty devastating if you don't know what's going on. For me recently I was only taking 800mcg of MB12 and 400mcg of MFolate for a few weeks. I took extra potassium, which has helped me before, and tried extra MB12 (to address possible methyltrap) but I never suspected Zinc. Once methylation has left you deficient in something IMO you're going to find that you're very sensitive to SMP supplements.

It seems keeping things in balance is the trick here. But without testing and unless you know the "feeling" of each deficiency (I got pretty good at knowing the flavor of potassium deficiency) then testing is the way to go (assuming it does job identifying deficiencies.)