Re: Spriest Ulduar DPS

Originally Posted by Vexione

Pretty much sums it up. Sure we get a healthy DPS boost between now and 3.1, but so do other classes - the only thing is they scale better. I'm already leveling up my pure DPS, I just wish I saw this coming before I made my Shadow Priest. A big /FACEPALM to the Mages who QQ about how one spec is not as good as the other in PVE (frost sucks in pve, arcane better than fire, etc) what the bloody hell? I'll be more than happy to have ONE SINGLE dps spec that when played right will be just as good or at least CLOSE to pure dps. Oh wait... we only have one DPS spec :-X

You realise you just said that mages are stupid with their QQ about wanting to have their talent trees good for PVP and PVE, while you are complaining about Shadowpriests not doing as much DPS as a pure DPS class despite the fact that you are a hybrid DPS. So you are asking for all three of Priest talent trees to be viable in PVE. If you only wanted to DPS and never heal, perhaps rerolling a pure DPS class is a good choice.

I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

Re: Spriest Ulduar DPS

Originally Posted by Abandon

You realise you just said that mages are stupid with their QQ about wanting to have their talent trees good for PVP and PVE, while you are complaining about Shadowpriests not doing as much DPS as a pure DPS class despite the fact that you are a hybrid DPS. So you are asking for all three of Priest talent trees to be viable in PVE. If you only wanted to DPS and never heal, perhaps rerolling a pure DPS class is a good choice.

he didnt wanted to do "as much" dps than a pure, he just wanted to scale like every other classes do and to do "good" dps which is still - enforced by blizzard - a bit less than pures do but this is not the case now ( look at dps lists )

and

when will ppl forget this pure > hybrid bullshit ? Blizzard made a mistake here:
Their main argument is " why should i bring a pure class if a hybrid can do that dps too ?" ,
but isnt their philosophy " bring the player not the class ?" since wotlk ?
so their main argument is void.

Re: Spriest Ulduar DPS

Originally Posted by bayi

when will ppl forget this pure > hybrid bullshit ? Blizzard made a mistake here:
Their main argument is " why should i bring a pure class if a hybrid can do that dps too ?" ,
but isnt their philosophy " bring the player not the class ?" since wotlk ?
so their main argument is void.

They also said that they want all talent trees to be viable for PVP and PVE, but looking at the frost mage tree for example with its useless for raiding 51 point talent. Blizzard also said in blue posts that they want hybrids to do around 5% less DPS than pure DPS classes. Also, if he rolled a pure DPS class and the current top DPS tree got nerfed, he could spec into another one.

I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

Re: Spriest Ulduar DPS

They also said that they want all talent trees to be viable for PVP and PVE, but looking at the frost mage tree for example with its useless for raiding 51 point talent.

yea i know what mages feel ( i also have a frost mage alt ) but the answer to this isnt "you are hybrid you are fine where u are, and we need buffs", im for mage ( especially frost ) pve buffs too

Originally Posted by Abandon

Blizzard also said in blue posts that they want hybrids to do around 5% less DPS than pure DPS classes.

no, they never said any precise number or percent ( Source )
also if this would be true i would be absolutely happy with that 5%, not that my dps is like 5400 on PW and with that im not in the first 10 ( top doing 6500+ ) thats not 5%... ok maybe i just suck

Originally Posted by Abandon

Also, if he rolled a pure DPS class and the current top DPS tree got nerfed, he could spec into another one.

true, but what should i do if my mains only viable dps spec is broken ?

Re: Spriest Ulduar DPS

Originally Posted by Strykzor

You're*

Originally Posted by Imnick

I [opinion] [cataclysm feature] and you should to. Anything who disagrees with me that [cataclysm feature] is [opinion] is a big [insult].
I asked all of my friends and they all agreed with me that [cataclysm feature] is as [opinion] as it is possible to be.
Blizzard are so [opinion], what [compliment/insult]s they all are!

There, now we can stop posting new topics in the Cataclysm forum altogether.
And if you disagree with me you're an [insult].

Re: Spriest Ulduar DPS

This is only true when MF more than doubles the proportion of damage comming from MB. This is true because a MB crit has double the effect on DPS than a MF crit (see supplied math in my earlier post).

So i'll concede that this is true for some of the parses that have been posted as they MF portion of damage is above 40% and the MB portion of damage is 15%.

However, not all parses share this proportion of damage, its quite normal to see MF around the high 30% and MB tending towards 20%. In addition MF crits don't proc IST, so a high MB crit rate can increase IST uptime thus increasing your average SP which of course increases DPS. What his means is MB crit has a slightly higher relationship than the 2:1 with MF crit I refer to.

Lastly is you will find that your MF crit rate will tend a lot closer to your true crit rate due to the sample size being larger. MB crit rate will tend to fluctuate to a greater degree than MF crit, and thus the RNG around MB crit will tend to have a greater effect on your DPS over time.

Re: Spriest Ulduar DPS

You realise you just said that mages are stupid with their QQ about wanting to have their talent trees good for PVP and PVE,

No, what I said was:

A big /FACEPALM to the Mages who QQ about how one spec is not as good as the other in PVE

Nothing do do with PVP. While browsing Mage forums everywhere, Mages are complaining about how they'll now need to learn a new DPS spec, new rotation, and recalculate their numbers after the introduction of Spirit into their lives because their standard FFB spec isn't going to be like what it is now.

I'll be more than happy to inherit their so-called problems if it means I'll have a spec that will top stuff when played very well. And yes I'm already painfully leveling a pure DPS class. Why so painful? Because I know I won't be able to transfer over my maxed out reputations, professions, achievements, impossible to obtain mounts & titles, vanity items, etc that my Priest already has.

Re: Spriest Ulduar DPS

Originally Posted by Worshaka

Was this on PTR? Because in my raids fan of knives (while good) isn't better than MS... the only AoE that beats MS is Cat Swipe... if anything that needs a good hard nerf. Particularly Beserk + Cat Swipe... that shit is completely OP.

Yes this was Tuesday on the PTR ( PvP server while it was up and not lagging to ...ugh ) and yes actually the Cat swipe was #1 overall, followed by FoN and MS. Sadly no one was logging so the information I was basing this off of was recount, but it has been a general trend I have been watching. Trash isn't a boss, and no I'm not QQ'ing we aren't the king of trash again. LOL

I didn't say I wanted to be top DPS, I love the utility that we bring, and you raise very valid points.

For most players the changes are fine, currently however when your pulling 5300 dps on some fights currently and your 10-12th, the outlook is bleak. What I said was we we not scaling well and seemed to be getting the short end of the stick.

Most fights in Naxx aren't really a perfect test of our DPS, and others put to the test all classes abilities, traits, are really fun. With encounter times dropping, we in theory should loose out to the burst dps abilities of other classes. The time spent in Bloodlust, Heroism and with boss health pools growing, they will be getting extra damage from a talent also increases.

I play my priest for a number of reasons, Maybe its because I don't like face rolling to be good, maybe I don't like single button spamming macros, maybe its because it makes my heart sing when I MD a pally bubble and watch them get raped, maybe its just because the class its self if a ton of fun. Honestly in Wrath I can count the number of times Ive had to pop out and heal on fights and that number is few and far between. There are classes that can do this a little more effectively then we can, but this thread isn't about that.

We all play to different levels and what have you. Some of us push the envelope, wanting to get every single drop out of a class, others are happy logging on doing dailies, taking their time, and enjoying the game their way.

I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him. - Mark Twain

Re: Spriest Ulduar DPS

I'm pretty sure most Shadow Priests agree with the accuracy of simulationcraft.

There are some major problems right now. Feral Druids are way, way, way too high. Either hybrid DPS is too low or pure DPS is too high.
At the moment, we're near the bottom of the list; in most cases, we're probably at the very bottom, since the other classes below us don't take as much precision to maximize DPS; they just cast spell after spell and don't have to worry about clipping, DoT uptime, and whatnot.

Just to support the above, a Shadow Priest cannot compete with Warlocks and Mage on live, PERIOD, unless the gear level is low (I'm talking heroic gear). It doesn't matter how good you are at DPSing as a Shadow Priest, it's not at all possible for you to beat a competent (or even incompetent) Mage or Warlock.

Re: Spriest Ulduar DPS

Originally Posted by zsuper

Just to support the above, a Shadow Priest cannot compete with Warlocks and Mage on live, PERIOD, unless the gear level is low (I'm talking heroic gear). It doesn't matter how good you are at DPSing as a Shadow Priest, it's not at all possible for you to beat a competent (or even incompetent) Mage or Warlock.

Its actually pretty easy on some fights. And btw, we're not supposed to be beating warlocks and mages. You've probably heard this before, but we're hybrid classes. I imagine this is going to be pretty useful on hodir(3.1 patchwerk) when we won't have to use as much frost resist gear as everyone else.

Re: Spriest Ulduar DPS

To illustrate my point, lets use some numbers on the WWS that you quoted and lets assume 11.11% haste which is the magic number for MF to be at 2.7 seconds and it reduces MB to 1.35 seconds.

Average MF tick = 2105
Average MB = 4098

* These averages do take into account crits, which obviously pushes up the average for a normal tick/hit of the spell but these numbers will illustrate my point nonetheless

If MF is ticking for 2105 every 0.9 seconds it has a DPS value of 2339, where MB will have a dps value of 3036. When these values crit the dps value for MF increases to 4678 but the MB value increases to 6071. That means that a MB crit has double the dps value of a MF crit and thus a high MB crit rate will distort your dps figure by a greater value than a high MF crit rate.

Originally Posted by Worshaka

This is only true when MF more than doubles the proportion of damage comming from MB. This is true because a MB crit has double the effect on DPS than a MF crit (see supplied math in my earlier post).

So i'll concede that this is true for some of the parses that have been posted as they MF portion of damage is above 40% and the MB portion of damage is 15%.

However, not all parses share this proportion of damage, its quite normal to see MF around the high 30% and MB tending towards 20%. In addition MF crits don't proc IST, so a high MB crit rate can increase IST uptime thus increasing your average SP which of course increases DPS. What his means is MB crit has a slightly higher relationship than the 2:1 with MF crit I refer to.

Lastly is you will find that your MF crit rate will tend a lot closer to your true crit rate due to the sample size being larger. MB crit rate will tend to fluctuate to a greater degree than MF crit, and thus the RNG around MB crit will tend to have a greater effect on your DPS over time.

From your numbers and the ususal spriest 11.11% haste cycle of 1MB then 2 full MF(6ticks)

1MB = 4098
6 X MF = 2105 X 6 = 12630

5% increase in crit chance on each
on MB = 204.9 Damage per cycle increase (5% of 4098)
on MF = 631.5 Damage per cycle increase (5% OF 12630)

I must say, I agree with Strykzor, even though the way he said it was a bit off. 5% crit on MF is WAY better than 5% crit on MB (i know IST will distort it a little, but not by the 400 damage per cycle difference shown above)

Anyway, we're still wayyyyy behind other hybrids so lets not arguee amongst ourselfs

Re: Spriest Ulduar DPS

1 mind blast...
6 mindflays...
of course 5% crit is better for the 6 chances than the one...
but seriously guys...
who the fuck does 6 mindflays every damn rotation? you gotta:

refresh devo
refresh VT
move outta fire
move outta some disguised form of fire
not be spell locked
not get damaged while casting and lose one of the 3 ticks...
cut ticks to maximize dps casting.. omg.. mind blast
not be forced to move losing one of the ticks...
not lose one of the ticks by 10,000 other methods of losing said ticks...

so... yes theoretically.. in a system where all you cast is MB anf MF.. 5% crit is better...
BUT...
in a system where the environment is against you and your trying to maximize dps.. then the 5% crit on the spell that take pretty much top priority on your rotation list wins by a long run, compared to the spell that you will clip intentionally in order to maintain a dot of other magnitude

Re: Spriest Ulduar DPS

I like playing a shadow priest b/c its fun, and its not as tedious as some other dps classes. Its not like im doing 4% of the dmg, and some equally geared and skilled rogue is doing 11%....the dps is fairly balanced, and it seems a little silly to QQ about other hybrid classes doing .02% more dps than you...im not saying that i like being 13th on dmg meters, but, its not like shadow priests are waaaaaaaay behind.
There is still room for shadow priests in any raid(refer to bring the player, not the class quote)

The dps you lose from bringing a shadow priest instead of a warlock isnt going to make a huge difference, but if you bring a smart raider that can maxamize dps and take minimal raid dmg and not die, then that will make a huge difference.

Another thing to consider, is that, shadow priests heal themselves for 25% of their dmg....if u do 5k dps, thats healing you for 1.25k hps, i mean, thats like a holy priest spam healing you for half of their total healing, while you arent at full health. survivability as a shadow priest is completely stupid...it pretty much takes a one shot to kill a shadow priest.

anyway, thats y i play a shadow priest, and not an OP high dps class, that can faceroll 8k dps and always find a way to mess up our immortal run.