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Re: The Official Pacers Digest F.A.Q. Thread

Putty, I kinda felt too uncomfortable to mention BCF, and I wasn't even there. I hate to laugh at the misfortunes of others. Well, mostly.

Well, that marks you as more of an insider than me. I know most of the insider terms, but allusions Burlington Coat Factory still just baffle me. If there is cause for embarrassment to anyone, I apologize for mentioning it.

Question: Would there be any value in a section in the FAQ about statistics and data? Folks tend to hate on stats pretty strongly, sometimes without know what what the stat purports to tell. We could explain the +/- and the PER for starters.

And I won't be here to see the dayIt all dries up and blows awayI'd hang around just to seeBut they never had much use for meIn Levelland. (James McMurtry)

Re: The Official Pacers Digest F.A.Q. Thread

No, Greene was taken while still on waivers (from the Celtics) and therefore still with an active contract. I think it was the James Jones TE space they used to get him. He did not clear waivers and maintained his original contract when the Pacers claimed him. Greene was not making the MIN either.

Odd thing about Orien's contract: He was paid exactly the league minimum. However, the MPE is only available for contracts up to two years in length. The Celtics offered a three year deal (at the league min salary) to Orien, therefore, they had to use part of their MLE.

What I'm not sure of his how the league would've viewed Orien's contract at the time the Pacers claimed him off of waivers. With the exception of the actual establishment of the MPE, Coon's FAQ only talks about players "making the league minimum." Orien's contract, at the time we claimed him, only had two years left. In that situation, I wonder if we (or any other team) could've exercised the MPE to acquire him, or if we ended up actually needing the TE.

Re: The Official Pacers Digest F.A.Q. Thread

Question: Would there be any value in a section in the FAQ about statistics and data? Folks tend to hate on stats pretty strongly, sometimes without know what what the stat purports to tell. We could explain the +/- and the PER for starters.

Re: The Official Pacers Digest F.A.Q. Thread

Thank you Hicks.

One other question - can Cash Considerations be used to balance out a
trade if the players to be traded salaries are not not close enough to
matching (is it within 125%?), or is it simply an "incentive" to get the deal done?

Re: The Official Pacers Digest F.A.Q. Thread

One other question - can Cash Considerations be used to balance out a
trade if the players to be traded salaries are not not close enough to
matching (is it within 125%?), or is it simply an "incentive" to get the deal done?

Re: The Official Pacers Digest F.A.Q. Thread

The Collective Bargaining Agreement is a very long legal contract between the league and the Players Association, and is written in dense legalese. It is my hope that this FAQ answers all your questions. However, if you really want the CBA, it is available from the Players Association's web site at http://www.nbpa.com/cba_articles.php. At the time of this writing, bound copies of the CBA are not available from the league office.Unfortunately, the CBA doesn't answer every question. The NBA, like most organizations, has by-laws, which are separate and apart from whatever contracts it may make with other entities such as the Players Association. Many of the rules are contained in the NBA By-Laws, and in a third document, the NBA Constitution. While it is possible for the public to obtain the CBA, the league office says the By-Laws and Constitution are absolutely off-limits.

After looking at this and glancing over the rest of the FAQ am coming to
realize how incredibly complex this stuff is!

Re: The Official Pacers Digest F.A.Q. Thread

Yeah...pretty much.

Getting caught up in trade exceptions, waiver claims and renouncing free agent rights is pretty counter productive. They all happen so infrequently and have such little real-world usage that the complexities of them are not really worth knowing. The trade exception thing seems to be picking up a little bit Leaguewide, but there are still only a handful of meaningful deals in NBA history that actually made use of them, with out blockbuster acquisition of future Hall of Famer Al Harrington topping the list.

Understanding the annual cap number, luxury tax, MLE/LLE, maximum/minimum salaries, Bird Rights, and RFA vs. FA are really the only things even a hardcore fan really ought to know unless he or she plans to write a thesis on the topic, which count55 clearly has.

Re: The Official Pacers Digest F.A.Q. Thread

I actually had thought Larry Coon's FAQ was linked at the top of the board here, but that's on RealGM. Though I've quoted him extensively (with credit), I got out of the practice of linking to it, because I thought it was already done.

The only additional thing that I think people should understand is the idea of cap holds and renouncing free agents. These are things that impact the league every single year. They have not been relevant to us to this point because we have always been over the cap. However, with more and more of our large contracts approaching expiration, there will be a significant difference between our payroll as listed on Shamsports and our actual available capspace. This particular issue has created a great deal of debate/confusion about plans for next summer.

Re: The Official Pacers Digest F.A.Q. Thread

Cap holds, I agree on. Most people assume the "loop hole" of waiting to sign your own guy will allow you to beat the system. But...The system thought of that a while ago and added cap holds.

But as far as renouncing rights goes...When does this ever happen? Elton is the first guy making more than, say, $3 million I've can recall. To me, it seems like a one-time anomoly rather than something the average NBA enthusiast need concern themselves with.

I mean, I'm not quite as big of a CBA head as you, but I've read it and been through Larry Coon's thing at least a half-dozen times and there are still minute details of the Gilbert Arenas rules, the "Over-36 rule"
and even what you can do with trade exceptions that escape me. And I can honestly say none of these things really have any practical barring on my rooting for a team or understanding what a GM will end up doing to acquire players 99.5% of the time. I'm still curious cause I'm a dork, but there's no real reason to know it.

But what I do often see this minutiae do is confuse people and divert otherwise production hoops conversations into the "But what if we trade Johnny No-Handles to the Bobcats for a trade exception first, then draft Stevie Hops-A-Lot and package him with a 2011 second rounder and the TE to the Bulls for Tyrus Thomas and a deep dish pizza. All we need to do is renounce our rights to Rik Smits and then add some cash considerations. It works under the CBA and I have no idea why Bird isn't pursuing this option."

Basically...all this stuff clutters the discussion and it will never (or very, very rarely anyway) happen.

Also...This whole post has nothing to do with the PD FAQ really...just saying that despite all the CBA offseason talk, very little of it is relevant and there are like 5-6 aspects that a fan should try to learn and fully understand before even attempting to bother with the fine print.

Re: The Official Pacers Digest F.A.Q. Thread

Cap holds, I agree on. Most people assume the "loop hole" of waiting to sign your own guy will allow you to beat the system. But...The system thought of that a while ago and added cap holds.

But as far as renouncing rights goes...When does this ever happen? Elton is the first guy making more than, say, $3 million I've can recall. To me, it seems like a one-time anomoly rather than something the average NBA enthusiast need concern themselves with.

Cap holds and renouncing rights are basically two sides of the same coin, and that's more or less the context in which the renunciation should be understood. As far as big dollars, the Clips also renounced Maggette, who was making $7mm, and I'm not sure if this is correct, but I think the Kings renounced the rights to Bonzi Wells a couple years ago.

Truth be told, renouncing rights only becomes an issue when a team has a payroll that is under the cap. Since most teams operate over the cap most of the time, renouncing rights to players becomes a meaningless gesture. Even if they don't plan to re-sign the guy, they can keep the rights "just in case" w/o penalty (since they don't have any cap space anyway).

Re: The Official Pacers Digest F.A.Q. Thread

Cap holds, I agree on. Most people assume the "loop hole" of waiting to sign your own guy will allow you to beat the system. But...The system thought of that a while ago and added cap holds.

But as far as renouncing rights goes...When does this ever happen? Elton is the first guy making more than, say, $3 million I've can recall. To me, it seems like a one-time anomoly rather than something the average NBA enthusiast need concern themselves with.

I mean, I'm not quite as big of a CBA head as you, but I've read it and been through Larry Coon's thing at least a half-dozen times and there are still minute details of the Gilbert Arenas rules, the "Over-36 rule"
and even what you can do with trade exceptions that escape me. And I can honestly say none of these things really have any practical barring on my rooting for a team or understanding what a GM will end up doing to acquire players 99.5% of the time. I'm still curious cause I'm a dork, but there's no real reason to know it.

But what I do often see this minutiae do is confuse people and divert otherwise production hoops conversations into the "But what if we trade Johnny No-Handles to the Bobcats for a trade exception first, then draft Stevie Hops-A-Lot and package him with a 2011 second rounder and the TE to the Bulls for Tyrus Thomas and a deep dish pizza. All we need to do is renounce our rights to Rik Smits and then add some cash considerations. It works under the CBA and I have no idea why Bird isn't pursuing this option."

Basically...all this stuff clutters the discussion and it will never (or very, very rarely anyway) happen.

Also...This whole post has nothing to do with the PD FAQ really...just saying that despite all the CBA offseason talk, very little of it is relevant and there are like 5-6 aspects that a fan should try to learn and fully understand before even attempting to bother with the fine print.

On the contrary, I think it DOES have to do with the PD FAQ because it helps me decide what is and is not appropriate for this FAQ.

Re: The Official Pacers Digest F.A.Q. Thread

Okay.

I'd say deal with significant league issues first rather than worry about the details of something that has happened with two players in the recent LAC drama and, maybe, another time with Bonzi Wells several years ago. That doesn't really pass the "Frequently" caveat of the mission you're on, IMO. In terms of rank, renouncing rights rates about 6573* on priority list.