Wait now . I didn't call you a Nazi or any other name. . And I too slept outside the gigs many times with no problem . Just simple no list needed when people are honest. No name calling or threats . Only that people who are scared because of people's behaviour is not ok with me. I won't be having that.

but no, don’t worry. I was not referring to you, it's not you who gave me the Nazi. I answered only what seems to me more absurd than all this

This thread is about the list and how wrong anyone is who tries to use that and worse, enforce it.You are not the 10c. You are not the cops. Nobody cares that it is not your interest to discuss this. Your opinion in the belief of the majority, and ignoring the stated 10c rules, does not hold water. You should come to the US and try to enforce a rule that is not allowed. People would welcome this.

But maybe, maybe, we are overreacting? Like really guys? I went to a lot of pj concert and I’ve never NEVER felt in danger and I’m 1.50m short. We are loosing the point. We are all there to see a concert and we are what we have ever called Jamily, but know I’m reading “italian mafioso behavior” “I felt in danger” and so on. Please all calm down. And let’s just enjoy the gig respectfully to all the people around you, and please PLEASE don’t sentence about people you don’t know.

Somewhere in the last 15 or so responses there was a suggestion that 10c come to police the line. Really? Adults can't just stand in a line without developing an enforcement of its own just to get into a concert?

Someone earlier stated that the pink haired lady was acting as if she was a part of 10c while enforcing use of the list. That's fucked up.

Ten club don’t want list ? Good ten club should control The Line ... ten club cannot say “no numbers just be respectful” this is Uthopia ! the Guy with The black Panther tattoo is not a nazi and if you don’t know him please shut-up...Are ten club members respectful? Not every ten club members ... ten club say not to resell good, but ten clubbers still resell good (some ten clubbers in Rome bought 30 posters each - husband and wife- at 12.00 ... after few minute the poster was on eBay at 500 dollars) in this tour there are ten clubbers in Line for 2 days, sleeping outside The venue ... are they all The same ? Yes ... why don’t they have The right to stay in The front? Why people arriving 2.00 p.m. The day of The show pretends to stay in the front instead of people in line from about 2 days? I don’t know... the only way in my opinion to know where’s your place in line is a list, because of members not respecting the line... people in line from 2 days before have the right to have food, pee, merch, pick-up the ticket from the will call... many times I went to American show and also there I had to discuss with people arrived 2.00 p.m the day of the show, just because I moved to pick up ticket from the will call, or just to have an hot coffee (it was -7C in Vancouver at 6.00 in the morning) fellow fans are everywhere, that’s because I prefer the list... in Mylton Keynes there was no list , I know who was before me , I know who was behind... once in line at 1 p.m. (and I never leaved the place) 4 guys (from all over the world) arrived and seated before me and my wife ... I asked them why they did and nobody (NOBODY) defended me , no one from ten club, no ten club members, no one from the local crew, as I was in line from 6.00 a.m. ... they asnwered me “no list, who can I know you arrived before me” ... I didn’t made the line in this tour, but I spent every time more than 1 hour to pick the ticket at the will call and more than one hour at the merch ... if this take more than 2 hours , who can people arriving at 2.00 p.m know that i’m In cue from the day before ??

Don't break the rules because you think it is ok.Clearly you have a problem with following the rules. Don't rationalize it. Follow the rules.No. Darn. List.Nobody cares about anything else.No. List.

Pretty simple.

“Clearly you have a problem with following the rules...follow the rules...No...No...”

i’m a Fireman, No a cop ! ...i don’t like much a cops !More than the rules, I love to follow the intellect, the reason and the community thought.I made the raimbow flag Fuck Trump Love Life. I prefer to love life rather than the rules imposed from above.

I disgust Trump and I am disgusted by weapons, in America Trump commands and weapons are legal and in the rules ... well ... in america I would be honored to be considered an outlaw that does not respect for rules.

In Italy instead of Trump there is Salvini, also liberally elected, who hates blacks, gypsies and refugees ... even in Italy I'm considered an outlaw just because I'm not a fascist and I do not follow the rules made by fascists.

So if we want to talk, well, I'm willing and proactive, but if we want to say blindly "NO NO NO FOLLOW THE RULES" ( sorry, but in the absolutist terms as you write, you remember me the Italian fascists) then forgive me but comes out my anarchist side ... I set the rules myself in respect of the next

Somewhere in the last 15 or so responses there was a suggestion that 10c come to police the line. Really? Adults can't just stand in a line without developing an enforcement of its own just to get into a concert?

Someone earlier stated that the pink haired lady was acting as if she was a part of 10c while enforcing use of the list. That's fucked up.

No list. No sharpies.

It was me.And I'm starting from a basic principle: I (like you I'm sure) go to a lot of concerts, and every gig is kind of similar when it comes to line. Someone is happy, someone is not. But only here people are not adult enough to accept what a line is. I'm not talking "the strongest win", I'm simply referring to the fact that not 100% people are fair lads: the numbers or the calls are a way to minimize to give order to a chaotic crowd. Do you really think that an email sayong "just stay in line, no number" is sufficient? Why did everyone not think about it before?

Actually it seems we're not adult enough to avoid coming here and crying about sometjing rhat, apparently, didn't even happened.

In any case, I just wanted to say what I thought. I'm looking for thumbs up or anything, so.gell.fre to ignore what I write.

Somewhere in the last 15 or so responses there was a suggestion that 10c come to police the line. Really? Adults can't just stand in a line without developing an enforcement of its own just to get into a concert?

Someone earlier stated that the pink haired lady was acting as if she was a part of 10c while enforcing use of the list. That's fucked up.

No list. No sharpies.

I fully agree with you, it would be nice to be all adults, how beautiful we would all be brothers without weapons, murder and wars ... unfortunately in the world there are murders and wars, so I do not think the problem is in numbers or lists ( REPEAT: I did not organize anything), but I think the problem is in human beings and in their egoism.✌

Somewhere in the last 15 or so responses there was a suggestion that 10c come to police the line. Really? Adults can't just stand in a line without developing an enforcement of its own just to get into a concert?

Someone earlier stated that the pink haired lady was acting as if she was a part of 10c while enforcing use of the list. That's fucked up.

No list. No sharpies.

I fully agree with you, it would be nice to be all adults, how beautiful we would all be brothers without weapons, murder and wars ... unfortunately in the world there are murders and wars, so I do not think the problem is in numbers or lists ( REPEAT: I did not organize anything), but I think the problem is in human beings and in their egoism.✌

This isn't a list to stand in line for a war. It was a list to stand in line for a rock concert. To my understanding, there was no war, there was no murder and, thank God, I believe there were no weapons in the GA line.

Somewhere in the last 15 or so responses there was a suggestion that 10c come to police the line. Really? Adults can't just stand in a line without developing an enforcement of its own just to get into a concert?

Someone earlier stated that the pink haired lady was acting as if she was a part of 10c while enforcing use of the list. That's fucked up.

No list. No sharpies.

It was me.And I'm starting from a basic principle: I (like you I'm sure) go to a lot of concerts, and every gig is kind of similar when it comes to line. Someone is happy, someone is not. But only here people are not adult enough to accept what a line is. I'm not talking "the strongest win", I'm simply referring to the fact that not 100% people are fair lads: the numbers or the calls are a way to minimize to give order to a chaotic crowd. Do you really think that an email sayong "just stay in line, no number" is sufficient? Why did everyone not think about it before?

Actually it seems we're not adult enough to avoid coming here and crying about sometjing rhat, apparently, didn't even happened.

In any case, I just wanted to say what I thought. I'm looking for thumbs up or anything, so.gell.fre to ignore what I write.

On my way to Prague. O jave a shirt with a (wait for it) NUMBER.

Ciaopovery

L.

An email stating to stand in line shouldn't even have to be sent, but if my understanding is correct, you were out falsely representing 10c. Not cool. No defense for that.

Somewhere in the last 15 or so responses there was a suggestion that 10c come to police the line. Really? Adults can't just stand in a line without developing an enforcement of its own just to get into a concert?

Someone earlier stated that the pink haired lady was acting as if she was a part of 10c while enforcing use of the list. That's fucked up.

No list. No sharpies.

I fully agree with you, it would be nice to be all adults, how beautiful we would all be brothers without weapons, murder and wars ... unfortunately in the world there are murders and wars, so I do not think the problem is in numbers or lists ( REPEAT: I did not organize anything), but I think the problem is in human beings and in their egoism.✌

This isn't a list to stand in line for a war. It was a list to stand in line for a rock concert. To my understanding, there was no war, there was no murder and, thank God, I believe there were no weapons in the GA line.

Somewhere in the last 15 or so responses there was a suggestion that 10c come to police the line. Really? Adults can't just stand in a line without developing an enforcement of its own just to get into a concert?

Someone earlier stated that the pink haired lady was acting as if she was a part of 10c while enforcing use of the list. That's fucked up.

No list. No sharpies.

It was me.And I'm starting from a basic principle: I (like you I'm sure) go to a lot of concerts, and every gig is kind of similar when it comes to line. Someone is happy, someone is not. But only here people are not adult enough to accept what a line is. I'm not talking "the strongest win", I'm simply referring to the fact that not 100% people are fair lads: the numbers or the calls are a way to minimize to give order to a chaotic crowd. Do you really think that an email sayong "just stay in line, no number" is sufficient? Why did everyone not think about it before?

Actually it seems we're not adult enough to avoid coming here and crying about sometjing rhat, apparently, didn't even happened.

In any case, I just wanted to say what I thought. I'm looking for thumbs up or anything, so.gell.fre to ignore what I write.

On my way to Prague. O jave a shirt with a (wait for it) NUMBER.

Ciaopovery

L.

An email stating to stand in line shouldn't even have to be sent, but if my understanding is correct, you were out falsely representing 10c. Not cool. No defense for that.

No lists. No sharpies.

...indeed, I said in the world, not at the concert ... then if we want to pretend not to understand what we read, ok?!!

Somewhere in the last 15 or so responses there was a suggestion that 10c come to police the line. Really? Adults can't just stand in a line without developing an enforcement of its own just to get into a concert?

Someone earlier stated that the pink haired lady was acting as if she was a part of 10c while enforcing use of the list. That's fucked up.

No list. No sharpies.

I fully agree with you, it would be nice to be all adults, how beautiful we would all be brothers without weapons, murder and wars ... unfortunately in the world there are murders and wars, so I do not think the problem is in numbers or lists ( REPEAT: I did not organize anything), but I think the problem is in human beings and in their egoism.✌

This isn't a list to stand in line for a war. It was a list to stand in line for a rock concert. To my understanding, there was no war, there was no murder and, thank God, I believe there were no weapons in the GA line.

Somewhere in the last 15 or so responses there was a suggestion that 10c come to police the line. Really? Adults can't just stand in a line without developing an enforcement of its own just to get into a concert?

Someone earlier stated that the pink haired lady was acting as if she was a part of 10c while enforcing use of the list. That's fucked up.

No list. No sharpies.

It was me.And I'm starting from a basic principle: I (like you I'm sure) go to a lot of concerts, and every gig is kind of similar when it comes to line. Someone is happy, someone is not. But only here people are not adult enough to accept what a line is. I'm not talking "the strongest win", I'm simply referring to the fact that not 100% people are fair lads: the numbers or the calls are a way to minimize to give order to a chaotic crowd. Do you really think that an email sayong "just stay in line, no number" is sufficient? Why did everyone not think about it before?

Actually it seems we're not adult enough to avoid coming here and crying about sometjing rhat, apparently, didn't even happened.

In any case, I just wanted to say what I thought. I'm looking for thumbs up or anything, so.gell.fre to ignore what I write.

On my way to Prague. O jave a shirt with a (wait for it) NUMBER.

Ciaopovery

L.

An email stating to stand in line shouldn't even have to be sent, but if my understanding is correct, you were out falsely representing 10c. Not cool. No defense for that.

No lists. No sharpies.

Your understanding is not corrext, my lord. I was NOT in Rome. I am not representing anyone except myself. I'm just stating a principle .

Hi Er tibbiaIt's great that you have come onto the forum to put your side of the story, debate and discussion will hopefully enable all to understand the issues at hand from everyones perspective. Before we start, well done for your chosen profession a being a fireman that is an honourable profession in every language. We do not know each other and I base my comments on my own experience of the number system and the numerous posts about peoples experiences in the GA line, I am not criticising you as an individual (again I do not know you) but I am questioning the validity and implementation of the list and number system that you support.

For me the main issue is people pretending to represent 10C when they do not. Using this lie to impose their system (which is against 10C advice) on others and of particular concern are the numerous allegations of threatened violence and intimidation to impose the list on all in the line.

Also of concern is your belief that the list and numbers are welcomed by the majority. I think this must depend on your particular social group as within my PJ circle of friends it is not. I believe the general perception on this thread and within my group of friends is that the list and numbers systems are implemented and used (and imposed on others) to enable a select few to turn up late and still get to the front of the queue. If you have camped out overnight you are more dedicated than me and deserve your spot at the front, in fact I will hold that spot for you whilst you go to the toilet and get your tickets etc, you've earned it (see my earlier post about the O2 when my spot was held by those around me whilst I went to get my tickets and had no problem rejoining the queue without my name on a list or a number on my hand) . I would welcome your comment on the numerous reports of large groups being away from the queue for long periods of time and then turning up late and getting to the front of the queue on the strength of the unofficial list. I honestly don't believe that they all went to the toilet, merch, tickets at the same time.

I am going to Berlin and will be in the GA early entry line. I will be taking the 10C advice and will not be signing up to any GA line list or writing a number on my hand. A couple of questions on which I would welcome your comment.How will this work if there is a list or number system implemented by someone with no authority to do so, will I automatically get pushed to the back of the queue and enter after everyone on the unofficial and unsupported list? Will I be expected to move backwards for others who have been away for extended periods of time and have not been seen for hours. What will happen when I refuse to move backwards and hold my position in the queue? I do not expected to be threatened, shouted at or intimidated by anyone and I will expect to enter the venue in an order determined by arrival position in the GA line (people ahead of me returning to the queue after reasonable toilet breaks, march, ticket runs excepted).

Apologies for the length of this email hopefully i haven't put everyone to sleep!!

Hi Er tibbiaIt's great that you have come onto the forum to put your side of the story, debate and discussion will hopefully enable all to understand the issues at hand from everyones perspective. Before we start, well done for your chosen profession a being a fireman that is an honourable profession in every language. We do not know each other and I base my comments on my own experience of the number system and the numerous posts about peoples experiences in the GA line, I am not criticising you as an individual (again I do not know you) but I am questioning the validity and implementation of the list and number system that you support.

For me the main issue is people pretending to represent 10C when they do not. Using this lie to impose their system (which is against 10C advice) on others and of particular concern are the numerous allegations of threatened violence and intimidation to impose the list on all in the line.

Also of concern is your belief that the list and numbers are welcomed by the majority. I think this must depend on your particular social group as within my PJ circle of friends it is not. I believe the general perception on this thread and within my group of friends is that the list and numbers systems are implemented and used (and imposed on others) to enable a select few to turn up late and still get to the front of the queue. If you have camped out overnight you are more dedicated than me and deserve your spot at the front, in fact I will hold that spot for you whilst you go to the toilet and get your tickets etc, you've earned it (see my earlier post about the O2 when my spot was held by those around me whilst I went to get my tickets and had no problem rejoining the queue without my name on a list or a number on my hand) . I would welcome your comment on the numerous reports of large groups being away from the queue for long periods of time and then turning up late and getting to the front of the queue on the strength of the unofficial list. I honestly don't believe that they all went to the toilet, merch, tickets at the same time.

I am going to Berlin and will be in the GA early entry line. I will be taking the 10C advice and will not be signing up to any GA line list or writing a number on my hand. A couple of questions on which I would welcome your comment.How will this work if there is a list or number system implemented by someone with no authority to do so, will I automatically get pushed to the back of the queue and enter after everyone on the unofficial and unsupported list? Will I be expected to move backwards for others who have been away for extended periods of time and have not been seen for hours. What will happen when I refuse to move backwards and hold my position in the queue? I do not expected to be threatened, shouted at or intimidated by anyone and I will expect to enter the venue in an order determined by arrival position in the GA line (people ahead of me returning to the queue after reasonable toilet breaks, march, ticket runs excepted).

Apologies for the length of this email hopefully i haven't put everyone to sleep!!

Nobody cares what you think, except for the few who determine it is ok to run lists and push them on others. Lists are not allowed. Simple as that.

in the directives of 10c we are not just talking about numbers and lists, but there is respect for people, socialization and honesty ... and yet ... yet in Padova we saw a Non-Italian Guy insulting with “FUCKING BITCH” to Italian girl with half of him years, in Rome we saw people try to skip the line, and buy 20 posters each before the opening of merch and then sell them on ebay at $ 1000 each.

you do not care about our thinking ... ok ... but someone else cares if you say “fucking bitch” to a girl, if you skip the line by being smart or doing business with the posters? To whom can we refer, at the exact moment, who intervenes, who takes action, who cares this?

Hi Er tibbiaIt's great that you have come onto the forum to put your side of the story, debate and discussion will hopefully enable all to understand the issues at hand from everyones perspective. Before we start, well done for your chosen profession a being a fireman that is an honourable profession in every language. We do not know each other and I base my comments on my own experience of the number system and the numerous posts about peoples experiences in the GA line, I am not criticising you as an individual (again I do not know you) but I am questioning the validity and implementation of the list and number system that you support.

For me the main issue is people pretending to represent 10C when they do not. Using this lie to impose their system (which is against 10C advice) on others and of particular concern are the numerous allegations of threatened violence and intimidation to impose the list on all in the line.

Also of concern is your belief that the list and numbers are welcomed by the majority. I think this must depend on your particular social group as within my PJ circle of friends it is not. I believe the general perception on this thread and within my group of friends is that the list and numbers systems are implemented and used (and imposed on others) to enable a select few to turn up late and still get to the front of the queue. If you have camped out overnight you are more dedicated than me and deserve your spot at the front, in fact I will hold that spot for you whilst you go to the toilet and get your tickets etc, you've earned it (see my earlier post about the O2 when my spot was held by those around me whilst I went to get my tickets and had no problem rejoining the queue without my name on a list or a number on my hand) . I would welcome your comment on the numerous reports of large groups being away from the queue for long periods of time and then turning up late and getting to the front of the queue on the strength of the unofficial list. I honestly don't believe that they all went to the toilet, merch, tickets at the same time.

I am going to Berlin and will be in the GA early entry line. I will be taking the 10C advice and will not be signing up to any GA line list or writing a number on my hand. A couple of questions on which I would welcome your comment.How will this work if there is a list or number system implemented by someone with no authority to do so, will I automatically get pushed to the back of the queue and enter after everyone on the unofficial and unsupported list? Will I be expected to move backwards for others who have been away for extended periods of time and have not been seen for hours. What will happen when I refuse to move backwards and hold my position in the queue? I do not expected to be threatened, shouted at or intimidated by anyone and I will expect to enter the venue in an order determined by arrival position in the GA line (people ahead of me returning to the queue after reasonable toilet breaks, march, ticket runs excepted).

Apologies for the length of this email hopefully i haven't put everyone to sleep!!

I appreciate the time you took to answer me so thoroughly.

I repeat, I haven’t organized the numbers, but if you ask me what I think about the numbers, for my experience ... I'm not in the first experiences of concerts ... I have no bad memories.

I hate the smart, I hate those who leave the queue to go away hours, hours and hours, I like being in a row camped and meet new people speaking different languages ​​from mine, even if my English is terrible.

I like it, it's not me who leaves the queue for hours and try to be smart ... think of Rome in a tent for 2 days I brought with me my 2 dogs and I've been playing with the ball with all the other members.

Unfortunately you have to admit that we are not all the same and all good. Some people arrived in the afternoon, arguing that if you went to the bathroom or get your ticket, you would lose the line. for them the line started only with the ticket in hand ... it's madness, right?

I do not need the numbers, I can behave and self-regulate myself, but if in the interest of the safety and security of 4/500 people the majority approves the numbers, I do not see anything outrageous.

I also ask you a question:

someone else cares if you say “fucking bitch” to a girl, if you skip the line by being smart or doing business with the posters? To whom can we refer, at the exact moment, who intervenes, who takes action, who cares this?

is there any authority, maybe 10c, that can be there with us and intervene?

if you can not do it, and leave everything to the self-responsibility of the people, then I think that we must reason and respect the self-management of a group, which has the sole purpose of tranquility, honesty and honesty.

pleasure, and sorry for my english but help me a bit with google translate

I care about the abuse of any 10C member regardless of gender, age religion etc. This is clearly wrong and and is also the reason why I am so engaged on this subject because of the number of reports of intimidation with the enforcement of these lists. I can't comment on this particular situation as I wasn't there but will add it is never OK to personally abuse someone, male or female. I don't do it, I have never seen it in a 10C line (except for an individual in Berlin, see below) and those that I choose to call friends do not do it.

I agree that the line does not start only once you have your ticket in hand especially as 10C tickets are not available for collection until a few hours before the doors open. Personally I have never experienced this, I take the time to get to know those around me in the queue and they hold my space for reasonable gaps such as getting tickets, toilet breaks, grabbing a coffee etc., I don't disappear for a second more than is absolutely necessary and certainly don't take the piss out of my fellow PJ fans by going back to my hotel or sleep in my car!! My only personal experience of intimidation in a 10C line was over the number on hand system (Berlin 1 2012) when the self appointed tried to pull me out of line as I didn't have the right number on my hand. That didn't work out to well for him although I never resorted to raising my voice or swearing at him, just plain ignored him!

In my personal experience the 10C lines self regulate very well. Common sense and a common joy of great music rather than lists & numbers what is needed. I will leave you with one question - If the list and/or numbers system is so welcomed why does those that impose them have to pretend to be an official of 10C to impose their will on others?

I repeat, I haven’t organized the numbers, but if you ask me what I think about the numbers, for my experience ... I'm not in the first experiences of concerts ... I have no bad memories.

I hate the smart, I hate those who leave the queue to go away hours, hours and hours, I like being in a row camped and meet new people speaking different languages ​​from mine, even if my English is terrible.

I like it, it's not me who leaves the queue for hours and try to be smart ... think of Rome in a tent for 2 days I brought with me my 2 dogs and I've been playing with the ball with all the other members.

Unfortunately you have to admit that we are not all the same and all good. Some people arrived in the afternoon, arguing that if you went to the bathroom or get your ticket, you would lose the line. for them the line started only with the ticket in hand ... it's madness, right?

I do not need the numbers, I can behave and self-regulate myself, but if in the interest of the safety and security of 4/500 people the majority approves the numbers, I do not see anything outrageous.

I also ask you a question:

someone else cares if you say “fucking bitch” to a girl, if you skip the line by being smart or doing business with the posters? To whom can we refer, at the exact moment, who intervenes, who takes action, who cares this?

is there any authority, maybe 10c, that can be there with us and intervene?

if you can not do it, and leave everything to the self-responsibility of the people, then I think that we must reason and respect the self-management of a group, which has the sole purpose of tranquility, honesty and honesty.

pleasure, and sorry for my english but help me a bit with google translate

Hi Er tibbia,we had a discussion about this topic already in the queue in Rome when you wanted to expell me and my friends as we had no numbers.The reason why we had no numbers were, as I explained you, that we followed the rules by TC. When we queued up in the morning round about 10am, two guys came and asked us if we want to put our names in the list (but we should have been round about 190). We asked if we had to but they stated both no. If we keep the guys before/ behind us in mind it is no problem. The only "real" problems started when the people were "organized" by their numbers round about 3pm. And what I especially hated were the lies that were told to go through with the "list" thing.When you wanted to expell us from the line you said that:- you read the TC email carefully and they did not wrote that the list is forbidden, only that they have no system; as I said that this is not true you called me a liar; I have several people that can testify this- that TC appriciates you helping them bringing order in the queue- that we all did a mistake not putting our names in the list and now we have to go back to the end of the queue as it is mandatory to be in the listIf your system is so nice and protective why do you lie?You even tried to upset the other fans in the queue when you asked me if I think they are stupid as they put their names in the list (what did not work out).And as you have seen, no one had a problem with us standing in the queue without numbers as we all saw us over the whole day, queing up together. They even defended us when they testified we were there the whole day.I think the list works out fine for the first 50 people and togerther with the role calls all three hours as it was done in Rome that`s fine. But in the morning you have to stop. I saw/heard myself that several people left again for hours due to the list (as in Padova) and came back just when the line was moved. I left myself for some time to get my tickets/ beer/ toilet break but I spoke always with the people around me and informed them. No problem at all. If you leave for some short time, no one has a problem, everybody has to normaly.Why is queing up working out in all other countries but Italy without a list (except some rare cases)? Also the majority of the people did not approve what you are doing; it`s that they don`t care or (even worse) they are afraid of what happened if they do not follow the "list" rules (see Padova, see Rome when people had to leave the queue).I found the behaviour of the people who "organized" the list in Padova and Rome rather aggressive than helpfull.