Beast of a defense in Johnson
Siemens who has the potential to be a top 3 shutdown defenseman

for

Streaky Stewart
Amazing Shattenkirk
Top 6 potential in Rattie

Only thing that is missing is McClement who wanted to move closer to home, probably would've left St. Louis as a UFA as well. It just looks bad due to Shattenkirk's point total currently, nothing else.

And like I said earlier, people act as if the "be all, end all" for a Defensemen is how many points he has. The Avalanche aren't an East Coast team and therefore a lot of non-fans don't REALLY watch our games, so they really can't see how much he's improving each season on the Defensive side of the game....which like I said, is what I want my DEFENSEmen to be focused on anyway, if they score, GREAT, but I'd rather their main focus be "how can I best prevent goals?"

And each year I see EJ take a big step in just being a player with a nice mean-streak/edge to him, if our Witless Wonder of a Head Coach would actually HELP EJ take the next step and PLAY HIM 25+ min a game, then he might actually have more points to go along with a great defensive game.

Irrelevant. The implication was that the Blues are better than the Avalanche, at least in part, because of the Avalanche's unwillingness to spend money.

the Avs have always been a organization that spent money to win when they had success. they've done it really one time since Kroenke has owned the team and it didn't produce the results desired and haven't really spent money since.

if you look at the Avs and Blues rosters and farm systems they tell the story.
the Avs have to spend money and have to bring in high quality free agents to augment the young core we already have.
the Blues have a very nice system and a extremely young and talent core they can lean on, the Avs don't.
we have huge gaps in key areas that winning franchises can't ignore and it shows badly.

the Avs system has improved greatly since Pracey and co revamped things but it's still not at the level it needs to be considering the minors are a feeder school for the big leagues.
in most cases for us our top prospects graduate to the NHL early or never play in the minors. but the NHL club still isn't where it needs to be and has way too many holes on D and at the wing.

I don't know WHY people seem to think a #1 Defensemen NEEDS to be scoring, that's what we have Forwards for. Yes Shattenkirk is producing offense, but we SAW firsthand how his Defensive game was, and it was lacking to say the least. He has a great offensive mind, no doubt, but he's still a bit on the small side and again, we SAW how easily he could be taken off the puck.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see EJ produce, but I'd MUCH rather see EJ continue developing his defensive Mean-Streak that he has been using.

He's been turning into a much better Defender.

He's what I want our #1 Dman to be, I'm perfectly happy with this. And on the offensive side, he's still got a nice shot, he needs a better PP system to unleash it, and needs to get it past the initial defender and he'll get more confidence and he'll start scoring more.

it's because people are always fascinated by offense.
they see the greats like Borque,Lidstrom,Orr,Leetch,Coffey and Chelios and assume that scoring also makes a great defenseman.

EJ has changed the defense by a wide margin for the team. his absence shows just how badly he is missed and how crucial he is to the success of the team. plus he was the #1 overall pick and the pressure of that is to be a franchise scorer and defender.
EJ has been the top pairing defender we've lacked for years. but we have not surrounded him with anyone who is a legit top pairing partner as of yet. maybe Barrie works out to become that guy or Elliot does but we haven't signed or as of yet drafted and developed a guy near EJ's level of play or that can pair with him.

it's because people are always fascinated by offense.
they see the greats like Borque,Lidstrom,Orr,Leetch,Coffey and Chelios and assume that scoring also makes a great defenseman.

EJ has changed the defense by a wide margin for the team. his absence shows just how badly he is missed and how crucial he is to the success of the team. plus he was the #1 overall pick and the pressure of that is to be a franchise scorer and defender.
EJ has been the top pairing defender we've lacked for years. but we have not surrounded him with anyone who is a legit top pairing partner as of yet. maybe Barrie works out to become that guy or Elliot does but we haven't signed or as of yet drafted and developed a guy near EJ's level of play or that can pair with him.

I had said before that I thought that Elliott could be the offensive spark plug that might work well next to EJ, and he very well could.

But a large part of me would very much like to see EJ and Barrie paired with each other...especially on the PP!

Blues fan here. Stewart is playing much better, even better (as a complete player) than when he was with you guys. He's still no Backes/O'Reilly/Oshie, but his effort has really increased. Losing 20 pounds and 6% of his body fat hasn't hurt him one bit. Shattenkirk is outplaying Pietrangelo in his own end and the neutral zone...And sadly? It really hasn't been close. The only thing Petro has on him this year is the stretch pass, but Shatty has been great in that regard as well. Rattie was, much like most of Team Canada, a bit of a disappointment at the WJC, but he's putting up another solid season for Portland...Without the almighty Sven. Hopefully Johnson gets back soon for you guys...Just not before the Blues come to town.

And like I said earlier, people act as if the "be all, end all" for a Defensemen is how many points he has. The Avalanche aren't an East Coast team and therefore a lot of non-fans don't REALLY watch our games, so they really can't see how much he's improving each season on the Defensive side of the game....which like I said, is what I want my DEFENSEmen to be focused on anyway, if they score, GREAT, but I'd rather their main focus be "how can I best prevent goals?"

That's well and good, but you don't pay the price Sherman paid for a defensive defenseman, regardless of how good of a defender he is. You just don't. They overpaid.

And BTW, Shattenkirk is playing perfectly fine defense - which seems to escape many people in here. Shattenkirk can play defense. Along with leading the NHL in dman points (or close to it).

Hindsight makes it easier to say EJ was not the value that Avs paid for, but at the time, I think many reasonable analysts said that although trading 2 young pieces in Shatty and Stewart was risky for what they could become, getting a player like EJ was worth that risk.
Do I think this team would be better today with Shatty and Stewart still on the team all other things being the same? No. Would it have been worse? Maybe not.
I think the ways the Avs can truly maximize the value in trading for EJ are:
1) find him a complementary partner
2) hire a coach who has a system that plays to his strengths, especially on the Power Play and in the offensive zone.

We went from a bad defensive team to a horrid defensive team without EJ. Yeah, it's clear.

I was about to say the same thing. EJ is "supposed" to be our #1 D... yet it has been made obvious since he was injured that he had to play #2 D, #3 D and #4 D as well. We need to shore up our top 4 big time. Get EJ some help and I think we could be a lot stronger.

I love EJ and tried to rationalize the trade when it happened but I definitely feel like we've overpaid for what we received. Part of that problem falls on management for not putting EJ in the best possible position to develop and succeed when we acquired him as a 2 years ago. We should have done what we could to find a better veteran partner to teach him, and played him a lot more minutes the way Columbus throws JJ out there in all situations. Now he's 25 and approaching what should be his prime and we're still hoping he develops an offensive game.

If he continues on his current trajectory he will be a great defensive dman, but more Dan Hamhuis than a Shea Weber. McClement was always a throw-in, and moving up 20 odd spots in the draft was nice (who we each picked there isn't on Sherman), but I really do believe that giving up two great players for 1 great player and a prospect is a bad deal.

Similar to the Varly deal, we got a great player, but gave up a lot of value, perhaps a bit more patience should have been exercised. I feel like Sherman tried to expedite the rebuild rather than waiting for the right opportunities to make a deal and in the process either just moved us laterally or set us back depending on your view of things.

Actually they're scouting department under Kakalainen was one of the best in the league, we made the trade with St. Louis when Kakalainen was coaching or GMing Jokerit. Now they're scouting department without him is still good, but I consider ours better or on par. IMO. Giving up their 1st in 2011 was not because they "knew" something, but because they "had" to.

Drafting Landeskog over Larsson is knowing something.

I believe that's inaccurate. Jarmo left AFTER the 2010 draft (Schwartz, Tarasenko) and we had already traded for EJ that previous February.

5:00 minute mark

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin

It's true that we won't completely know the long term ramifications of this trade for awhile yet, though I confess that I'm a little amused at how the analysis of this trade has gone from "EJ's the best player in the trade, clear win by the Avs", to "we need to wait and see how EJ's continues to develop", to "we won't know until EJ gets different defense partners", to "Duncan Siemens is a BIG part of the trade".

Not sure how you can really say this with a straight face, really believing it. Also, when did people say it was a clear win for the Avs?? I really don't remember people really saying that about THIS trade. The concensus amongst Avs fans has been and always has been that we gave up a lot but we got our #1D.

I mean, should we go over to the Capitals board and really stick it to them, saying they got NOTHING for Varlamov, absolutely NOTHING?!?! Because essentially, since F. Forsberg is an 11th overall pick, that's EXACTLY what you're saying.

I kind of hate to break it to you but prospects ARE part of the game and an 11th overall selection that was part of the trade NEEDS to be factored in to the equation, if you're going to be analyzing a trade only 2 years later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin

That's well and good, but you don't pay the price Sherman paid for a defensive defenseman, regardless of how good of a defender he is. You just don't. They overpaid.

And BTW, Shattenkirk is playing perfectly fine defense - which seems to escape many people in here. Shattenkirk can play defense. Along with leading the NHL in dman points (or close to it).

Whatevs. Perhaps he's improved, we're playing them Wednesday so we'll all be able to see for ourselves.

I still love the EJ deal and I think his points production so far this year or lackthereof is overblown. He played 10 games and we were shut out for 3 of those. He wasn't even put on the 1st PP unit, only used on the 2nd unit, the one that featured the strange mix of wingers (Jones, Hejduk, Parenteau). I believe that when EJ comes back (as long as he's 100% healthy), is going to prove a lot of people wrong much like Duchene has been doing so far this year.

I'm all for the trade. The price was steep but EJ's been as good as we could've hoped for given what he's had to work with. His numbers aren't great but what do you expect from a guy who's always gotta clean up for inept partners?

I wish we coulda gotten Sobotka instead of McClement and then he stayed with the team but other than that I'm happy with the trade pending Siemens' development. I know that without Johnson even if we had Shattenkirk+Stewart, we'd be an even worst team.

Shattenkirk's defence has improved a bit since leaving Colorado, it would never have improved much if he'd stayed here.

I still love the EJ deal and I think his points production so far this year or lackthereof is overblown. He played 10 games and we were shut out for 3 of those.

Maybe he could have done something about said shutouts?

If analyzing this over the course of this season is overblown, at what point is it not overblown? A half season? A full season? 8 seasons? What?

EJ's last 21 games played (an exact quarter season total, since I was accused of cherry picking stats): 0g, 3a, 3pts.
EJ's last 41 games played (an exact half season total): 3g, 5a, 8pts.
EJ's last 61 games played (3/4ths of a season total): 4g, 16a, 20pts.
EJ's last 82 games played (1 full season total): 4g, 23a, 27pts.

His offensive production over his last entire season (assuming 100% games played in a season, i.e. his last 82 games) would have ranked him 84th in pts/game amongst defensemen in the NHL last season. As it is, this season he's ranked 178th.

I'm wondering what miraculous event is going to occur to turn EJ into an offensively productive player. Is it not possible that's just not what he is?

I love EJ and tried to rationalize the trade when it happened but I definitely feel like we've overpaid for what we received. Part of that problem falls on management for not putting EJ in the best possible position to develop and succeed when we acquired him as a 2 years ago.

Exactly the way I feel about it.

That said, there's only so much one can attribute to Sacco and EJ's defense partners. There are other players on teams with crappy defenses and/or coaches, who have more than 1 point this season. Tyson Barrie has 4 points - with the same crap defensemen and crap coach - in his last 3 games. The same number of points that EJ has put up on the board in his last 30+ games. Sure, EJ has more defensive responsibilities, but 3 games vs. 30+ games' worth of responsibility? I don't think so.

EJ hasn't played with a reliable partner since leaving STL. Until he does he's being asked to clean up for his partners, and when he's doing that he can't go out and get involved in the play regularly. Other young dmen are at least given the freedom to go out and attack despite their partners, like Barrie, he's the mistake maker on that pairing and Hejda's focused on cleaning up after him, EJ doesn't get to do that, he's our best dman and Sacco uses him to absorb as many chances against as he can, and EJ's been really good at it, but it's not conducive to scoring points, although we do see EJ's capabilities when he gets mad and imposes himself on the game regardless of whomever else is on the ice. The only thing more he can do is learn to get his shot through to the net, and that's my lone complaint with his play, but even there a better partner would be able to set him up better which may be all the difference he needs.

If analyzing this over the course of this season is overblown, at what point is it not overblown? A half season? A full season? 8 seasons? What?

EJ's last 21 games played (an exact quarter season total, since I was accused of cherry picking stats): 0g, 3a, 3pts.
EJ's last 41 games played (an exact half season total): 3g, 5a, 8pts.
EJ's last 61 games played (3/4ths of a season total): 4g, 16a, 20pts.
EJ's last 82 games played (1 full season total): 4g, 23a, 27pts.

His offensive production over his last entire season (assuming 100% games played in a season, i.e. his last 82 games) would have ranked him 84th in pts/game amongst defensemen in the NHL last season. As it is, this season he's ranked 178th.

I'm wondering what miraculous event is going to occur to turn EJ into an offensively productive player. Is it not possible that's just not what he is?

I dunno, I guess I just don't see things the same way as you do.

So, the Erik Johnson that produced 33 pts in 69 gp as a rookie and 39 points the year after, do you attribute that to LUCK or has his offensive abilities magically disappeared?? Is he unable to do that anymore or does he just NOT have anyone covering him??

My theory (and it's a CRAZY one, so hang on to your hat) is that EJ has decided to put the focus on his defensive game because if he doesn't, we really don't have anyone that's going to play D in his place. Whether that's his decision or the coaching staff, I believe this to be true.

Case in Point:
First 11 games with EJ:
29 Goals Against - 2.63 avg per game

Last 3 games since his injury:
14 Goals Against - 4.66 avg per game

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin

Exactly the way I feel about it.

That said, there's only so much one can attribute to Sacco and EJ's defense partners. There are other players on teams with crappy defenses and/or coaches, who have more than 1 point this season. Tyson Barrie has 4 points - with the same crap defensemen and crap coach - in his last 3 games.

Yeah, we've ALSO produced 14 goals for in those 3 games!

First 11 games with EJ:
23 Goals For - 2.09 avg per game

Last 3 games since his injury:
14 Goals For - 4.66 avg per game

So you might say that we scored 14 goals in 3 games BECAUSE of Tyson Barrie which in part would be true. But I certainly don't think this team is going anywhere playing defense like it has since he's been injured.

So, just so I'm not being misinterpreted here, I'm not saying that EJ necessarily will become an offensive dynamo. All I'm saying is that I believe under the right set of circumstances, he can still be a guy who puts up 35-45 points per season all the while playing great defense.

I said this in the Duchene thread but EJ needs to be allowed to play real #1 dman minutes so that we can figure out truly what he is, because at this point it's hard to say. I mean we know a few things for sure. When you see him on the ice and the way he moves and his size and how hard he can shoot the puck when he wants to...you know physically he has all the tools. You know he's by far our best defenseman and the lack of him on our blueline is absolutely beyond crippling to our defense. But I still don't think, at 24, we know what he is because he goes out there and plays the same 20 minutes a game that Wilson does and Hejda does and Hunwick does and Barrie does.

I know his partners suck and he's never developed good chemistry with anybody but let him play 25+ minutes a game and deal with all the growing pains that may come with it. But make him the man and give him the minutes...if Sacco leans on him as a guy who absorbs the tough chances against then why on earth is EJ 5th among our defenders in PK time? Let him play 3 or 4 minutes a game on the PP instead of the 2:30 he averages now. I feel like Sacco's need to have a uniform distribution of minutes is stunting EJ's promise and it certainly isn't making any of our other defenders better.