From what I understand and have read... "The China Study" is just wrong. Filled with errors and omissions. At it's best, I see "The China Study" as an example of incomplete scientific and statistical analysis. At worst, I view Campbell as an all out liar advancing his personal agenda by blinding people with complicated numbers and statistics while leaving out the parts that destroy his theory.

I would mention that I don't disagree with eating more fruits, veggies, and nuts over meats and grains.

In fact, it is my personal theory (with no scientific evidence to back it up other than my own looks at nutritional content)... out of veggies, fruits, and nuts... Veggies should be consumed the MOST. In general, veggies contain a lot of nutrients and deliver it with less sugar (and calories from sugar).

Same as ATL, I dont have any problem with people trying to eat more fruits, veggies and nuts and less meats. Just dont like the China Study as your justification, the science behind it is so bad other scientists are embarrassed. You can find plenty of people critiquing the study on the internet and its just not pretty.

I actually watched a Ted talk recently by someone who basically said he would be a week day vegetarian because he couldnt imagine ever eating his last burger. So he was vegetarian M-F then if he wanted meat on the weekends he would have it or not. He also implored the audience to try removing meat from their diet just one day a week.

I would mention that I don't disagree with eating more fruits, veggies, and nuts over meats and grains.

In fact, it is my personal theory (with no scientific evidence to back it up other than my own looks at nutritional content)... out of veggies, fruits, and nuts... Veggies should be consumed the MOST. In general, veggies contain a lot of nutrients and deliver it with less sugar (and calories from sugar).

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It's true, eating more fruits and veggies probably (probably) won't kill anybody. But I must say, based on the 72-hour food journals I get from my fat clients, fruits and veggies aren't a problem. They also tend to eat less red meat than I do. Additionally, some take various 'health supplements.'

And they're fat, feel lousy and often have various and sundry medical conditions.

Soy, was invented by monks to lower their sex drive as they weren't supposed to get any. It raises estrogen levels in both men and women. Cancer prolbems in women and sex drive problems in men, are the reasons I don't touch the stuff.

I can state with complete accuracy that my own vegetables are better tasting than any I can buy from stores in my area. We do have a large Amish/Mennonite community who tend to grow heirlooms in their gardens ( which they sell) and they too are really outstanding to eat raw or cook with.
I buy local chickens, pork, and beef for the simple reason that they taste better, have better fat ratios for flavor and marbling, and make better stocks. Our eggs also make waaayyyyyy better cakes and pies- the yolks are larger and richer.

Regardless of whether soy negatively effects hormonal status or not (which I think it absolutely can), its an inferior food choice in terms of fatty acid status and protein content compared to an abundant amount of foods that should make up your dietary choices.

Paid for by the soy growers of America... what type of soy did they use, the good type of Japanese Tofu that takes years to ferment the toxic enzyme inhibitors out of it, or the kind that is causing problems.

Phytoestrogens, genistein and daidzein mimic hormone estrogen in the body. This is where the problems with estrogen start.

Soy acts more like a drug than a food in the body. The industry has a lot of their own study's from their hired scientists. You can post a thousand of these "study's" and I will continue to believe those who take years to make a product out of something they know will harm you if eaten without taking the time to do it right.

Phytic acids, enzyme inhibitors, haemaggluttin, and trypsin inhibitors are all in the soy you eat and all are pretty much poisons.

Trypsin inhibiters can cause pancreatic cancer and the explosion of breast cancer should be the sparrow in the coal mine for some of you.

If it hasn't been fermented for "two summers" soy has not had time to turn itself into beneficial for the body. Five or six years is ideal in the Japanese way of making soy products healthy.

Phytoestrogens, genistein and daidzein mimic hormone estrogen in the body. This is where the problems with estrogen start.

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No, they don't. Phytoestrogens are not estrogen, period. Further more, if you had something that "mimicked" estrogen in your body, you'd end up with more testosterone. That's how the pituitary works. In fact, that's what clomid does - mimics estrogen so your body produces less, causing your body to think it has more estrogen and produce testosterone.

More importantly, there has never been a study that showed that phytoestrogen intake induces higher levels of estrogen in men. Not once! In fact, the studies show it has absolutely no effect on blood hormone levels.

The industry has a lot of their own study's from their hired scientists. You can post a thousand of these "study's" and I will continue to believe those who take years to make a product out of something they know will harm you if eaten without taking the time to do it right.

Why the die hard defense of soy? Even if you do not believe that it can promote estrogenic effects, you still cannot argue for it in lieu of countless other foods (fruits, veggies, grass fed beef, fish, coconut, grass fed dairy, etc.), or that it is not high in pro-inflammatory Omega 6 fatty acids, or that it is not GMO 95+% of the time. I could possibly argue occasional consumption of it 40+ years ago when it was not GMO and our diets were better in general, but you're hard pressed to not find soy in some form in a majority of our food source these days so I cannot make an argument to add any extra soy to our diets. Plus, tying back to the original title of the thread, many vegetarians claim that their way of eating is "sustainable," but if you actually investigate the farming practices of the mega crop that is soy, it's yet another reason to avoid it altogether.