Really tired of hearing "Which mage or hunter wants to sit"

Because we bring no raid cooldowns. I don't really care that we "bring buffs" cause in 25m it is completely irrelevant. We do subpar DPS on most fights compared to other classes, and we bring no raid cooldowns, no movement cooldowns, nothing. I've argued the point many times that hunters mark should be a raid CD similar to warrior crit banner, but a little stronger, and on that single target only. And cheetah aspect should be a movement roar cooldown that druids have. Just to make us a LITTLE wanted

might be time to look for a guild that doesn't so bluntly make segments of their dpsers into 1st and 2nd class citizens where only the latter has to be rotated.. Hunters are fine, your raid policies are questionable.

That, or your guild recruits too many of certain classes that they feel they can justify sitting people.

might be time to look for a guild that doesn't so bluntly make segments of their dpsers into 1st and 2nd class citizens where only the latter has to be rotated.. Hunters are fine, your raid policies are questionable.

That, or your guild recruits too many of certain classes that they feel they can justify sitting people.

Or you could be a top end guild and realize a raid CD dpser is more valuable than a hunter/mage that brings no CD of equal DPS

A guild still progressing I would not call top-end at all. The word it self says enough imo.

OT:Why your RL bench mage and hunter specifically I don't know since there are worse specs purely dpswise unless all the mages and hunters in the guild is what is holding back progression(which I doubt quite a lot).

I really think Hunters and Mages deserve something unique to bring. I, fortunately, have the highest single target dps in my raid group, so I feel valuable in that regard, but since my sister is a hunter, the only time she comes close to me is Thok and that's still pretty far below me since a Fire mage can have almost 100% dps on Thok.

Everyone in the raid group brings a valuable raid CD that's used for every fight during progress, except my sister and I. You could argue the buffs, but we have a Guardian druid/lock for sp/crit and my sister brings melee attack speed, which basically only our pally tank and herself benefits from. (Because haste is so good for guardian druids and warriors)

QQ

Originally Posted by Not Againnn

anything else and you will steamroll anything in pvp.

That's Blizzard's view on it too and it makes me sad. It's very easy to make a spell have different effects in PvE and PvP.

the balance isn't so skewed that you can put wipes on specific specs / classes.

But it sounds like you should reroll, since top-end raiding is your thing, shouldn't you be having 10 alts to switch between depending on comb? no? The encounters are balanced towards the average dps, not the broken overscaling specs. Sure you get a small advantage, but it is your guild policies that put min/max'ing over learning to play with what you got.

TLDR: Your guild is the problem, not class balance. Solution => Reroll, or find another guild. This is how its always been for top-end.

I really think Hunters and Mages deserve something unique to bring. I, fortunately, have the highest single target dps in my raid group, so I feel valuable in that regard, but since my sister is a hunter, the only time she comes close to me is Thok and that's still pretty far below me since a Fire mage can have almost 100% dps on Thok.

Everyone in the raid group brings a valuable raid CD that's used for every fight during progress, except my sister and I. You could argue the buffs, but we have a Guardian druid/lock for sp/crit and my sister brings melee attack speed, which basically only our pally tank and herself benefits from. (Because haste is so good for guardian druids and warriors)

QQ

That's Blizzard's view on it too and it makes me sad. It's very easy to make a spell have different effects in PvE and PvP.

Always my biggest problem in wow, they let pvp qqers dictate the game, feel like something is too powerful in pvp? They nerf it across the board. Thats why Spellsteal costs almost 20% of my mana and ring of frost is channeled.

Rank 10 brawler at ilvl 440 is harder then killing garrosh hc Proving grounds 44 waves at ilvl 440 is also harder, So I consider myself a world class hunter

Uhh.. i wouldn't say that, but to each his own!

As far as the original topic: As long as you aren't in a top 10 guild or what not, as long as you are a good player and are consistent, i don't see a raid leader not bringing you over a "XX" class. We bring a lot of AoE CC to raid which comes in handy on H Siegecrafter, but yeah that's about it.

Originally Posted by Azortharion

Looking forward to correct it with your advanced, groundbreaking theorycraft.

So any US 25man that kills Heroic Garrosh today will be ranked US 33rd. That seems top end to me. Not world first material but I would definitely consider that top end.

The issue is that only US views themselves in terms of "US-Rank", while EU views it in terms of "world rank" - where you'd be sub 100. If you start putting artificial limits on it like "US only", then you could argue for putting other artificial limiters on it - like 3 days a week, 4 days a week, 5 days a week, portugese, german, swedish, etc - I mean, the best danish 25 man guild in the world currently hasn't even killed Paragons. Does that make them top end? Not really, they aren't even close to finishing the tier. Does it make them the best danish guild? Yep. Now translate it to US =P.

That being said, I can fully understand the frustration here. It's something I have personally been pointing out since T14, whenever it has been possible to do so, and have made multiple posts in that regard. Once again this tier, we've seen far less use of windwalker monks, hunters, and mages compared to everything else - mainly due to the fact that they bring less utility, or lower dps, than their counterparts. Warlocks have still been just as important and brought just as much utility as last tier (even with the 60 sec CD on portals - it really doesn't help that they put that in, but then make every single ability that can benefit from portals only occur once every minute or more -.-), so they have been in a good position.

So yes - hunters / mages / windwalkers *do* need help. There's no reason to bring a hunter over any other ranged, apart from gearing issues. You shouldn't be afforded a raid spot due to the fact that you'd DE gear otherwise.

Originally Posted by Speedlance

Rank 10 brawler at ilvl 440 is harder then killing garrosh hc Proving grounds 44 waves at ilvl 440 is also harder, So I consider myself a world class hunter

Absolutely nothing to do with the topic and I'm not sure anyone is going to agree or believe you. What exactly did you think this post would accomplish :S?

Mages. Hunters. Near the top. If anything, your raid leader should be going: Which DK wants to reroll or never see the inside of anything other than LFR until WOD?

I see the hunter specs at rank 13 and 16 out of 20 in 25 man, which this post was clearly about if you read the first post. Even lower if you include demonology and sub, which both rank ahead, and are excluded from that (so 15 and 18 of 22).
Newsflash, that's nowhere near the top. It's not even the middle. It's in the lower half, and not a single spec that is lower than BM has the misfortune of not bringing any raid utility. <.<.
(Oh, and even on 10 man, hunters do not reside in the top half of the specs :S).