Posted
by
samzenpus
on Sunday November 21, 2010 @01:21PM
from the it-totally-sucks dept.

digitaldc writes "Pollution in Beijing was so bad Friday the US embassy, which has been independently monitoring air quality, ran out of conventional adjectives to describe it, at one point saying it was 'crazy bad.' The embassy later deleted the phrase, saying it was an 'incorrect' description and it would revise the language to use when the air quality index goes above 500, its highest point and a level considered hazardous for all people by US standards. The hazardous haze has forced schools to stop outdoor exercises, and health experts asked residents, especially those with respiratory problems, the elderly and children, to stay indoors."

At first I thought they were complaining about the airline service of "Beijing Air". I could picture a bunch of snobby suits ordering martinis and yelling "WHERE'S THE FUCKING OLIVE!? This is so going to hit the news."

When I went to Beijing, the air really was crazy bad. As in, it drove you crazy to breathe it.

It's not just the air quality, which is like breathing soup and makes you feel sick, but also the open sewer vents all over town. My taxi got stuck in traffic, windows down, next to one of these sewer-gas-venting holes in the ground for half an eternity, and I was literally ready to leap out of the cab and run to my destination to get away from it.

I've been living in Beijing for a number of years now. The embassy started measuring the air pollution when the Olympics became a topic. At that time the air quality had already been improved dramatically compared to what it was before. Although the 500+ now is the worst they ever measured, and certainly worse than what we had during the Olympics, it's still relatively clean to what it used to be a in the pre-Olympic decade.

It's a good reason that I never go there unless it's end of september/october. Any other time of the year just sucks even worse. Try sneezing after spending a few hours outside and see what's there: black soot.

The measure the Chinese govt took to clamp down pollution a bit was to order everyone to only use their car on even or odd days. So a lot of people bought two cars, since you can usually either afford several, or none. There's hardly a middle ground with that in China.

...alerts for nearly exactly the same thing went on for 2-3 weeks in Boston.

It's not nearly the same thing. You're probably thinking of the impact of Quebec forest fires in May, which drove the Air Quality Index (AQI) to the
Unhealthy for Sensitive Groups range (which is 101-150) in parts of the Boston area. This is nowhere near 500+. (The ranges above 150 are Unhealthy (151-200), Very Unhealthy (201-300), and Hazardous (301-500+).

.. this would be an idea state: no EPA at all, and nothing to work against any company in order to make a profit.

Way more accurate to say its the ideal fascist state (what the USA is rapidly moving toward) where all the costs (pollution) are socialized and all the benefits (profits) are privatized. They're just a little further along than we are.

Remember when the govt and corps merge, suing a corp for pollution is a great way to get executed as an enemy of the state.

Simply do what the US did. Get rid of all your factories and buy everything from overseas.

We sold U.S. Treasuries to Chinese officials who showed up at auctions and scooped them up in order to strengthen the dollar with respect to their own currency. When a growing world power like China insists on indexing its own strengthening currency to yours, carrying out business overseas in other countries becomes financially obvious to industries like manufacturing and importing that benefit from inflated dollars.

In the US, merging the Gov and Corps too early would be counterproductive, since the Gov would have to abide by the US Constitution, pacify voters and other Pesky Stuff. Pesky Stuff like the FOIA doesn't apply to Corporations.So if the Companies start owning nearly everything, it's likely to enter Company Land you have to sign away some rights. Don't like it, go live on some other Company's Land instead (and sign away your rights there too).

No, you have libertarians and conservatives confused with anarchists. That's typical talk from the socialist/communist faction: "When you guys talk about enforcing the Constitution that means you guys don't want any government at all!"

Conservatives (well, those 2% of conservatives that aren't religious nuts, or progressives that want to move us in their socially conservative manner) want the Constitution applied. Libertarians want to ignore the Constitution like everyone else.

Conservatives (well, those 2% of conservatives that aren't religious nuts, or progressives that want to move us in their socially conservative manner) want the Constitution applied. Libertarians want to ignore the Constitution like everyone else.

One place where "conservatives" and "libertarians" agree is that the "free market" is better suited to protecting the environment than the government, just as the "free market" is better suited to making sure that everyone has health care or that the "free market" is best suited to making sure crooked securities traders don't cheat old people out of their retirement savings. All this despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It's part of their shared insanity.

One place where "conservatives" and "libertarians" agree is that the "free market" is better suited to protecting the environment than the government,

Spare us the hyperbole deliberately simplified to the point of misrepresentation. A Libertarian would point out that air pollution is a standard "tragedy of the commons" failure and would propose a market-based solution like emissions trading [wisegeek.com] as a means of stopping polluters from treating the damage they do to property they do not own as an economic externality.

"Shared insanity is an excellent term for the brief turn away from Conservatism (NOT Republicans) that the country underwent, and is now correcting."

Correcting indeed. With the Republicans now controlling the House, they get to appoint a new chair to the House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee. The front-runners for the position are:

Joe Barton - He's the guy who apologized to BP for their cruel treatment by the US Federal Government. He also received more campaign contributions from the oil industry than any other member of the House, which makes him an expert on energy policy.

John Shimkus - He quoted the book of Genesis in House testimony as evidence that God promised He would never let bad things happen to the Earth, and He should be entrusted to protect the environment.

"the failures coming when each and every one of the industries you mentioned had heavy regulation induced and large government players involved (like Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac)"Whoa, whoa, whoa.... Fannie and Freddie didn't cause the subprime mess. They were actually pretty late in coming into it. I was involved with that industry for three years, and I don't remember ever seeing a subprime loan bond issued by those agencies. The bonds I do remember seeing are a who's who of the banks and investment houses

In laissez faire economical system all property is private. When I own a plot of land, I own everything above and below it, including the air and water flowing through it. When you pollute the air and it drifts over my land, you are committing vandalism against my property, and are criminally liable for the damages you cause. That's a much stronger protection than what you get from the EPA.

And rather than thousands or millions of individual lawsuits by individuals against big polluters we collectively assert our right to clean air and water through our government. It's much more efficient that way.

And a technical point. Often you don't own the mineral rights under your property and you have no right to prevent aircraft from using the air over your property (above 500 feet I think).

> You both understand that the Clean Air/Clean Water Act made it possible for common citizens to sue over pollution, right?

Of course. We are not living under a laissez faire economic system. As the previous poster said, land ownership in our society does not give ownership of the minerals under it or the air above it; the government owns those. Government ownership of property is the socialist system. With the Clean Air act, it has benevolently allowed aggrieved subjects to sue over pollution in governme

In the 20th and 21rst centuries we look back at the historic environmental events in the U.K. sometimes known as the London Fog [wikipedia.org]. In the 22nd century, people will look back and talk about Beijing Fogs.

If you run away from smog every time it comes around the smog is going to start thinking we are weak. Then we are going to have to listen to the smog whenever it tell us to do something. We need to stand up to the smog and show it that we are not just a bunch of overly socialized western pansies. I demand that we give all our kids smog masks! The smog masks will supply a steady stream of high quality smog to school children, who will naturally become smog tolerant. The smog tolerant children will go on to create a new world free untethered from the requirements of clean air and pollution control devices. These new smog tolerant children will then be able to compete against the Chinese who are fed a steady diet of smog since birth.

-If you don't want to turn into a frog, you better eat some smog.-Elliot Weise

I think he's saying we need to have our military take over China, so we can fight the smog on its home turf instead of having the smog come to the usa and knock over our skyscrapers. It'll only cost a couple billion, which can pay for from Chinese food export revenues, it'll practically pay for itself, and I'm sure the populace will love the freedom we bring them so we'll get plenty of support.

Last year the Air Quality Index in Atlanta [gaepd.org] reached the level of "Unhealthy For Sensitive Groups" (100-150) on 16 days, and never reached the next level, "Unhealthy" (150-200). Beijing's score - over 500 - sounds very bad indeed.

When I visited Beijing during the summer six years ago, the Imperial Vault and the Hall of Prayers at the Temple of Heaven weren't visible from each other. According to this site [kinabaloo.com], they're only about 360 meters apart. Smog limited the visibility at ground level to less than a quarter of a mile, and it has gotten worse since then.

People honestly don't get how bad pollution has been in other parts of the world. In the US you very seldom get air quality of 200, more less 500, which is unprecedented.

China is making a very conscious decision to not worry about it until they've got their economic shit together, but this kind of thing is very expensive to deal with in the long run. Like a lot of things (including their demographic issues) they're hoping to get developed enough to handle it before the internal costs catch up.

When will the youth of China decide they've had enough of conformity and respect for authority? China has raised it standard of living in recent decades but they still suffer from a severe lack of basic freedoms, corruption, and choking pollution. The civil rights movement and Vietnam triggered the events of the 60's in the USA. When will the same happen in China?

Yea! The 60's, lawyers, and Elvis Presley pretty much destroyed our economy. As a USian, and can emphatically say I want China to have the same 'benefits' we have. Anything can get the Chinese to start thinking individualistically and to stop worrying about the greater good of the society is the right way to go. Of coarse I would prefer that USians start following the Chinese example, and value education / hard work, but if I can't have that I think the next best think is to export MTV to China.

>Of coarse I would prefer that USians start following the Chinese example, and value education / hard work,

Oh, the irony of your statement...

But I do agree with you that US conservatives admire China. Thanks to Republicans, the US Chamber of Commerce, and the Communist Party of China working hand and hand.. it's only a matter of YEARS before US workers go on strike, l demanding the end of all holiday overtime, workman's compensation, anti-discrimination laws, and anti-child labor laws. Why? Because it wi

China has raised it standard of living in recent decades but they still suffer from a severe lack of basic freedoms, corruption, and choking pollution.

Hmmm... China's severe lack of basic freedoms is pretty well documented. But I don't recall reading about a similar severe shortage of corruption, or of choking pollution. Where might these shortages be documented?

But maybe that's all a lot of the youth see. Maybe they're happy to be working in factories where they get to sit, albeit for 14 or 16 hour work days, instead of trudging around in a field for 14 or 16 hours a day. Add on top of that the fact that they can earn a comparatively decent paycheck compared to their parents still living in squallor on that farm, and maybe they just don't think it is so bad. Sooner or later this hard working, mor

When will the youth of China decide they've had enough of conformity and respect for authority? China has raised it standard of living in recent decades but they still suffer from a severe lack of basic freedoms, corruption, and choking pollution. The civil rights movement and Vietnam triggered the events of the 60's in the USA. When will the same happen in China?

USA had the Kent State Massacre, 4 dead. We've got "a couple hundred" political prisoners in that concentration camp in Cuba. Nothing to be proud of, but not that bad either.

China at the same time roughly had Mao killing about 50 million, admittedly mostly indirectly thru starvation. And their entire population is basically political prisoners / slaves of their government.

The odds of a successful counter cultural movement are a little bit higher in the US, for some odd reason.

When will the youth of China decide they've had enough of conformity and respect for authority? China has raised it standard of living in recent decades but they still suffer from a severe lack of basic freedoms, corruption, and choking pollution. The civil rights movement and Vietnam triggered the events of the 60's in the USA. When will the same happen in China?

Basic freedoms have improved, corruption has been far less than I've seen in the US (their former food and drug regulator was found to be taking bribes from pharmaceutical companies, and subsequently executed), and the choking pollution has only been a recent occurrence because of the rapid growth.

The pollution is bad right now, but I think China is in a position to turn that around really quickly. Unlike in the US, they don't have lobbyists from companies creating the pollution who will oppose any and all environmental laws. Of course they don't want pollution, but currently the government is in a tough position of making choices between pollution and slowing down the growth of the country. However, one might note that their pace of growth in renewable energy is torrid. They have been putting a lot of money into wind and solar tech. Plus, they are already way ahead of the game in creating a practical 100% electric car. To me, it seems like sometime in the next 10 years, they will have the ability to switch over, nearly overnight, to clean energy solutions. Without a bunch of opposing interest groups like we have in the U.S., it'll literally be like flipping a switch.

Right now, they are still busy extracting as much profit as they can from the imbalance in labor and environmental regulations between them and the US/Europe. They're still sitting on enormous coal deposits, which are cheap to exploit compared to most other energy sources, and I can't imagine that they'd give up coal power for something cleaner but less efficient unless forced to do so externally.

Basic freedoms have improved, corruption has been far less than I've seen in the US (their former food and drug regulator was found to be taking bribes from pharmaceutical companies, and subsequently executed), and the choking pollution has only been a recent occurrence because of the rapid growth.

You're insane. Corruption in China is rife. The reason there are pollution problems is because the companies don't adhere to the law and instead bribe their way out. This goes to safety issues too. Yes, there are laws to prevent unsafe conditions like buildings flopping over or towering infernos but they cannot be enforced either. And it goes all the way to the bottom, to worker safety, even work hours. Look at the problems in factories. There are laws to prevent sweatshop conditions, but they aren't enforced because the factory owners can work outside the law if they have the right connections.

China wants to clean up the problems but as long as the government cannot enforce the laws because of corruption at lower levels, the problems will still be around.

The working conditions are tragic and even illegal. But since the owner of the factory is an ex-police chief, there is no action taken against him.

I have no idea how you can say there is less corruption in China than in the US. Just ask Lee Kuan Yew (creator of modern Singapore), he says that the American system cannot be used the same in developing Asian countries because the conditions are different and corruption becomes a problem.

30 years, because keeping the air clean is expensive, and if companies are forced to be clean then they'll have to raise prices which means their prices would no longer be as competitive as they are now and we'd have floods of goods from other countries.

China is going through what the US did in the late 1800s and early 1900s with pollution and child labor, this is their industrial revolution. [42explore2.com] They'll come out of it eventually but they'll no longer be shipping chea

Many people claim the reason for offshoring is wages, but that's only part of it...

Much of the savings comes from the ability to operate a factory in China under less stringent rules - less labor protections, less safety, less pollution controls, etc.

Eventually China will crack down on polluters (they already do on an ad hoc basis, such as briefly during the 2008 Olympics) improving air quality, but also increasing production costs, which will then push many companies to offshore to the next cheaper place where such costs can again be externalized.

Ron

p.s. why is the comment entry window so narrow? More breakage - Slashdot was more usable in 1998 than it is now, but hey I guess this is progress... bah!

Ive known this trick for a while, I wish there was a setting somewhere so I could make them pop up as ile or news or whatever. Save me from having to reload the page, or copying, pasting and editing the link.

The reasons aren't obscure at all. Management rammed idle down slashdot's throat back in the day and as a sign of protest, they made it suck as hard as possible. Now they are pretty much just phoning it in, so don't expect any fixes.

This is how capitalism _works_ without any kind of subsidy, corporations always try to dump risk and externalize where they can get away with it. Note the nation debt is a form of corporate control of government allowing them to externalizing cost in the form of national debt.

Another form is offshoring, externalizing costs onto workers in one nation and saddling that nation with all the risk because the jobs aren't coming back and there is n

I lived there for several years and there were some days that were pretty bad, but those were mostly due to weather conditions - particularly the dust/sand storms, which were some times quite spectacular.

Most of the time I was wondering what all the fuss (made by USians mostly) was about. Of course, I wasn't conducting scientific analysis, but I'll bet it's not nearly as poor as the reports might make you think. I hear some cities in the US have trouble too...

"Most of the time I was wondering what all the fuss (made by USians mostly) was about. Of course, I wasn't conducting scientific analysis, but I'll bet it's not nearly as poor as the reports might make you think. I hear some cities in the US have trouble too..."

As a culture Asians don't usually complain about things, especially the weather which is out of an individual's control, so it would have to be hailing balls of fire before anyone would make a peep. Of course everyone knows Americans love to have

Fair enough, though I'm neither Asian nor American. I'm English (sort of), though I guess my complaining *is* worthy of someone from the USA - I spent several years working and living there (prior to moving to Beijing), so had plenty of practice (there's plenty to complain about there too), and many opportunities to observe the 'pros', so to speak:)Anyway, I certainly have seen plenty of Chinese people complaining...a situation where a domestic aeroplane was delayed comes to immediately to mind...very loud

In other news, the US Embassy called Google's decision to leave mainland China "totally messed up," claimed the widely-acclaimed film The Town "actually kind of sucks balls," and that the animated show "Family Guy" was "actually not all that funny."

I suppose if the USA has a tradition of presidents referring to serious, highly complex, global geopolitical situations in terms of cowboy movies, "good guys", "bad guys" etc. then having a diplomatic service that refers to local meteorological conditions as "crazy bad" is merely following form....

Seriously, I think you should get a pass for saying "crazy bad" when taking up smoking would actually make the air you're breathing somewhat cleaner because at least you're sucking some of it through a filter. "Dangerous" or "Deadly" are other options. I'd be pretty pissed off if the air where I live was brown, but that's probably just because I'm used to it being pretty clean as air goes. That is largely thanks to the EPA, and when the power and other companies whine about too much regulation, it's because

About a decade ago, I visited China and landed somewhere outside of Beijing. After stepping off the plane I looked almost straight up into the sky and saw the moon. It had a dark copper tint similar to how it looks during an eclipse, and I thought, "Oh wow, a lunar eclipse!" However, when it looked the same way the next night, I knew it wasn't an eclipse.

I'm from around Los Angeles, whose nickname is "Smogangeles", and I never saw a moon like that except near the horizon. When the sun or moon is near the ho

The US has been restricting emissions since then, while China has been building TWO COAL POWER PLANTS PER WEEK since then.

We "snubbed Kyoto" because we knew it wouldn't do any good if countries like China got a complete pass and Russia was baselined at its ultra-polluting communist era. All Kyoto was designed to do was siphon money from the US and EU to other countries.

You do realize that the sort of pollutants the article discusses have little or nothing to do with GHG emissions, right?

People are really stupid. CO2 may cause the planet to warm up, but it certainly won't kill millions by way of lung cancer and other respiratory aliments.

The US (and the west in general) has done an admirable job of eliminating or reducing air borne pollutants. The US is currently debating the merits of managing non-pollutant emissions, such as CO2, the byproduct of "clean coal", natural gas, and other complete oxidization products.

Downplaying the improvements in Western air quality is extremely dangerous, and one only has to tour some of the various polluted hell-holes in the East to truly understand how important clean air is.