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Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

Great point. Not to mention the 2 losses in the Finals were pretty rough (Swept by the Spurs, then his absolute choke against Dallas in the last 4 games).

Can't forget him absolutely quitting on his team in game 5 against the Celtics in in the second round of 2009 (uninspired 15 points on 14 shots) Though he had a triple double in game 6 just had an off shooting night.

Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

Me and my brother argue Lebron to death because he is such a Lebron James fan.

To me, Lebron is the most talented athlete to ever play in the NBA (and one of the best athletes in professional sports HISTORY) I think people WANT him to have Jordan's mentality, because if he did, he would probably be even more dominant than he already has been. But does that mean that Jordan is that much greater than Lebron?

Take a guy like Kobe for example. At one point people argued whether Vince Carter was better than Kobe, or whether Tracy McGrady were better than Kobe. If Kobe didn't have the absolute NEED to be better than those guys, and to be considered "the next MJ" (even though he falls short) he probably wouldn't have been as great as he's been for so long. By sheer competitiveness and maximizing his talent, Kobe has placed himself in conversation of the all time greats.

Meanwhile, Lebron was averaging 27, 7 and 7...as a 20 year old and 2 years removed from High School! He's been considered the undisputed best player in the league for a while. With his athletic prowess and natural gifts, Lebron was going to be really good no matter what. His competitiveness and even the pressure probably pushed him to become great. With that said we will DEFINITELY see another Kobe Bryant or two, before we ever see another Lebron James.

If an athlete can go 85-90% of their maximum capacity; saving that extra 10-15% for when they REALLY want to turn it on, and still be considered with the all time greats..how does he compare to a guy that HAD to go all out, 100% of the time in order to achieve the same level of greatness?

Then when you take it back to the original scale and compare Lebron to Jordan, if Lebron wins 6 or more rings, by going 85-90% most of the time, only to turn it up when he wants, does that make him greater than a guy that only knew 100%, 100% of the time?

Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

Me and my brother argue Lebron to death because he is such a Lebron James fan.

To me, Lebron is the most talented athlete to ever play in the NBA (and one of the best athletes in professional sports HISTORY) I think people WANT him to have Jordan's mentality, because if he did, he would probably be even more dominant than he already has been. But does that mean that Jordan is that much greater than Lebron?

Take a guy like Kobe for example. At one point people argued whether Vince Carter was better than Kobe, or whether Tracy McGrady were better than Kobe. If Kobe didn't have the absolute NEED to be better than those guys, and to be considered "the next MJ" (even though he falls short) he probably wouldn't have been as great as he's been for so long. By sheer competitiveness and maximizing his talent, Kobe has placed himself in conversation of the all time greats.

Meanwhile, Lebron was averaging 27, 7 and 7...as a 20 year old and 2 years removed from High School! He's been considered the undisputed best player in the league for a while. With his athletic prowess and natural gifts, Lebron was going to be really good no matter what. His competitiveness and even the pressure probably pushed him to become great. With that said we will DEFINITELY see another Kobe Bryant or two, before we ever see another Lebron James.

If an athlete can go 85-90% of their maximum capacity; saving that extra 10-15% for when they REALLY want to turn it on, and still be considered with the all time greats..how does he compare to a guy that HAD to go all out, 100% of the time in order to achieve the same level of greatness?

Then when you take it back to the original scale and compare Lebron to Jordan, if Lebron wins 6 or more rings, by going 85-90% most of the time, only to turn it up when he wants, does that make him greater than a guy that only knew 100%, 100% of the time?

It's rare, really rare, to have Lebron's athletic gifts.

I think it's rarer to have MJ and Kobe's mentality. In fact, so rare, that those are the only two guys I'd put in that category in the NBA. (I'm actually close to calling it a mental disorder. Like...I don't know that it's healthy.)

I also think, as others have said, we need to let Lebron's career play itself out. At his athletic peak, he's incredibly efficient. And yes, his skills have certainly increased over the years. But they aren't close to what Kobe's are (Or were). (Post up game, footwork, shooting - yes, Lebron has improved...but as he gets older, the shots he's taking will be more difficult etc..)

Right now, he can do anything he wants to do on the court, because his body allows him to. But that's not going to last forever. In fact, I doubt it lasts much more than 2 years more. So where he stands when its all said and done will also depend on how his game adjusts.

Kobe adjusted so well because he had that will and mentality. Once again, I'm not saying Lebron can't adjust..I'm just saying that part of Lebron's "legacy" will come from how he plays after his athletic peak...and that's coming soon.

Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

"Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

"And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
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Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

I think it's rarer to have MJ and Kobe's mentality. In fact, so rare, that those are the only two guys I'd put in that category in the NBA. (I'm actually close to calling it a mental disorder. Like...I don't know that it's healthy.)

I also think, as others have said, we need to let Lebron's career play itself out. At his athletic peak, he's incredibly efficient. And yes, his skills have certainly increased over the years. But they aren't close to what Kobe's are (Or were). (Post up game, footwork, shooting - yes, Lebron has improved...but as he gets older, the shots he's taking will be more difficult etc..)

Right now, he can do anything he wants to do on the court, because his body allows him to. But that's not going to last forever. In fact, I doubt it lasts much more than 2 years more. So where he stands when its all said and done will also depend on how his game adjusts.

Kobe adjusted so well because he had that will and mentality. Once again, I'm not saying Lebron can't adjust..I'm just saying that part of Lebron's "legacy" will come from how he plays after his athletic peak...and that's coming soon.

Great points. Lebron looks like he has added more to his mid-range game, but most of his career has been defined by his physical supremacy. As you say, he is at the absolute peak of that right now and in about two years when he hits 30 it will start to go downhill.

Watch videos of 45 when he was a young cat and compare them to videos of him from the second three peat. It's almost like it's not even the same player. Young Jordan was always exploding to the rim and dunking over fools because his body allowed him to do that. But he couldn't do that anymore once he was in his 30's, at least not at the level he once did. Thus, he perfected the art of mid-range jumpers, post-up moves, and fade-aways. That's what Mamba did too when he aged. For Lebron to be at a Kobe/Jordan level, he is going to have to refine his game when he gets into his 30's. That's what made Kobe and Jordan so special. When Lebron is willing his team to a championship at age 35 like 45 did, then maybe he'll deserve to be ranked on Jordan's level.

I find all of the Jordan/Lebron comparisons to be silly when there is still a player in the NBA in Kobe who has had a better career than Lebron. Kobe obviously had a seven year head start on Lebron, but Lebron still has a ways to go before one can say that he had a better career than Kobe.

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Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

In today's fun with numbers, this is the list of guys who've put up 17/7/3.5 on 38% from 3. Bird, Durant, Lebron, Fat Lever, and Paul George. That's it. Lebron and PG obviously have to keep it up all year.

Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

Don't know where this belongs, so I'll toss it here: I went to Vegas recently and saw the Pacers were 20-1 odds to win the title. Naturally, I threw $50 on that baby. Needless to say, drinks are on me for PDers if they do win

Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

Melo may be out for the all-star game. (My guess is he'll just play limited minutes)

Would be pretty awesome if at the least it got PG some more play time/exposure, or the possibility that he starts in Melo's place.

"It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

Don't know where this belongs, so I'll toss it here: I went to Vegas recently and saw the Pacers were 20-1 odds to win the title. Naturally, I threw $50 on that baby. Needless to say, drinks are on me for PDers if they do win

At the beginning of the season......I place my Championship bet on the Pacers to win it all when they were 25-1 odds. And as part of tradition, I did the same for the Warriors ( since I live in the Bay Area ) by placing my yearly $10 bet for them to win it all....at 100-1 odds. I know it's a longshot....but I'm hoping for a Warriors/Pacers NBA Finals....WHICH would be EPIC ( specifically for me )

Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

At the beginning of the season......I place my Championship bet on the Pacers to win it all when they were 25-1 odds. And as part of tradition, I did the same for the Warriors ( since I live in the Bay Area ) by placing my yearly $10 bet for them to win it all....at 100-1 odds. I know it's a longshot....but I'm hoping for a Warriors/Pacers NBA Finals....WHICH would be EPIC ( specifically for me )

other than always having the memory of the franchise you love costing you $750 attached to the joy of the Pacers finally winning

Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

Don't know where this belongs, so I'll toss it here: I went to Vegas recently and saw the Pacers were 20-1 odds to win the title. Naturally, I threw $50 on that baby. Needless to say, drinks are on me for PDers if they do win

I think they were like 75-1 before the season started, so Vegas must actually see us as legitimate.

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Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

Surprised nothing is happening. I don't expect star type deals, but deals by teams to bolster positions they need strengthened, especially for playoff teams trying to make a splash or win it all. Like Miami trading for JO to bolster their 5 position. He's cheap, and he fills a need.

Maybe with team execs at the Allstar game rubbing elbows things will pick up.

Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

The Heat seem to be getting...

better.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)