Denial and Isolation.At first, we tend to deny the loss has taken place, and may withdraw from our usual social contacts. This stage may last a few moments, or longer.

Anger.
The grieving person may then be furious at the person who inflicted the hurt (even if she’s dead), or at the world, for letting it happen. He may be angry with himself for letting the event take place, even if, realistically, nothing could have stopped it.

Bargaining.
Now the grieving person may make bargains with God, asking, “If I do this, will you take away the loss?”

Depression.
The person feels numb, although anger and sadness may remain underneath.

Acceptance.
This is when the anger, sadness and mourning have tapered off. The person simply accepts the reality of the loss.

When a Jehovah’s Witness begins to understand that the JWs are not and have never been God’s one true organization, he or she may go through these 5 stages of grief. These stages are not specific to what the searching JW goes through but I believe they do a fair job at accurately depicting what I personally went through on my continuing journey.

1) Denial: For many years I would see things I didn’t agree with or I thought were not biblical but I would just shrug it off. When I was a young Ministerial Servant an experienced older brother I deeply respected told me that he had a hard time believing that 1914 was an indisputable teaching. He also said that the Society had acted irresponsibly in promoting 1975. After examining more closely the doctrine on 1914 I had to admit the bible support was scant, but I just shrugged it off.

Years later as I started to read and study the bible much closer, taking the time to really try to understand what the bible was saying, I started to get a different feel from the bible on many different teachings. At first I denied it. I began to consult bible commentaries and basically spent all my free time in doing bible research. Even when I began to see the evidence that the FDS had not been appointed over all Jesus belongings in 1918/1919, part of me still thought I was sinning against Jehovah by doubting these doctrines. I would pray for God to open my eyes to what the bible truly said and at the same time pray for forgiveness for doubting the “faithful and discreet slave”. You could say I was in denial.

2) Anger: This can be a step that some former JWs stay in a long time. I experienced anger at myself thinking how could I be so stupid to believe these unbiblical teachings for so long? When I stepped down as elder I experienced anger at the local body of elders who questioned my love for God, my motives, said I was letting myself be used by Satan, and accused me of being an irresponsible husband for putting my wife through this turmoil. I experienced anger at the Governing Body for making grandiose claims that have no biblical support. I did experience anger, though I think this step was rather short for me fortunately. Feeling anger or being indignant is normal and by no means wrong. However we need to realize that if we continue to hang onto our anger we are only hurting ourselves. Unrelenting anger is like poison to the soul.

3) Bargaining: I think some may go through this step, others may not. I may have done so when after I realized some of the problems of the organization, I would think “I realize that this organization if not perfect and that in all probability it teaches several false doctrines, but please Jehovah just let it be your organization.”

4) Depression: When you began to see “the truth about the truth” it can be quite crushing. Honestly I don’t know if I have ever gone through anything quite as traumatic. It changes your whole outlook on life. I spent long hours in prayer crying and trying to understand all the consequences of my discovery. I realized all the changes I had to make personally. I realized a lot of my “theocratic” activity was not really service to God, but to an organization. I realized that eventually I would decide to leave the organization one way or another, and no matter how I left, my reputation would be destroyed and I would probably lose everyone I counted as a friend. I realized I could even lose my wife since the organization gives grounds for separation on “spiritual endangerment”. I began to see the full import of Jesus words at Matt. 16:24 – “24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me.” Fortunately this stage doesn’t last forever.

5) Acceptance: I feel that this is the stage I am in right now. I accept the Watchtower organization never has been God’s chosen people, but I also realize that JWs are part of Christianity as a whole. My anger at the Governing Body has lessened considerably. They are probably just as blind as I was to the fact that they have not been appointed to anything. I believe they are just sincere men that believe they are doing God’s will. Hopefully they will have their own “awakening”. I do not blame the local body of elders either for their attitude towards me. They also are only doing what they believe to be right. They have even extended a small mercy towards me by not disfellowshipping me for disagreeing with the organization. If we find we have lots of built-up anger and resentment against the organization we should work on letting it go. The christian author Lewis B. Smedes wrote “To forgive is to set a prisoner free and to discover that the prisoner was you.”

Although life was easier and a whole lot less complicated before I was “awakened”, I would never wish to go back to my days of ignorance. I realize finding out the truth about the truth has been a blessing. My relationship with God and Jesus is so much closer now. I think that I am imitating Jesus much closer now than I used to. I am much less dogmatic, judgmental, and self-righteous than before. In fact when I think back on some of the things I thought or said I truly am ashamed. It is a relief to know that I have millions of more spiritual brothers and sisters than I thought I had. I have also learned in invaluable lesson on trusting and following men. I will never put my relationship with God and Christ in the hands of men ever again. My love for others has also continued to grow thanks to our loving Shepherd, Jesus.

If you find yourself in one of these beginning stages and find the grief intolerable, grow close to God, follow our Lord and Savior, Jesus, and know that the intense pain you feel will not last forever. Hebrews 13:5,6 (NLT) “…For God has said, “I will never fail you. I will never forsake you.” 6 That is why we can say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper, so I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?”

49 Comments on Five Stages of Grief

Good article, it made me think about the stages I went through. I started off on stage 2/anger then jumped to 4/depression and then 5/acceptance. This was a long process for me. I was very angry for at least a year. I lashed out at everyone I could. Family and close friends. During that time I was DFed. Wanting to get back on speaking terms with the family I got reinstated however through this process I was very, very depressed. I was doing something I didn’t believe in just so I could speak again to my family and friends. That is very depressing. Now I am into acceptance and I try to keep a level head when talking to family or friends. When they say something about the JW’s or last days I just role with it. It’s not easy that is for sure.

I feel much more calm these days. I know for a fact the JW’s are not chosen by God. That’s about all I know 100% right now. I know the Bible very good but now i question everything. It’s kinda like starting over for me. I do believe in Jesus and his teachings for sure. I am trying to cultivate more Christ like qualities instead of just give him lip service as I did as a JW.

I would like to think I am a Christian but suffer from low self esteem and feel under qualified to be called a “foot step follower” of Jesus. I think I get this from being a JW for so many years. I am working on my new relationship with Jesus and his Father.

On stage #5, “Acceptance”, there largely comes a transition in our spiritual family. As we go forward we identify friends and new family, because if we truly accept that God is in the lead in our lives, old ties may withdraw.

Those in association with Jesus and Jehovah are just as Jesus had said, “‘Who are my mother and my brothers?’ And having looked about upon those sitting around him in a circle, he said: ‘See, my mother and brothers! Whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother and sister and mother.'”

Greybeard I would like you to support your statement.
“I know for a fact the JW’s are not chosen by God. That’s about all I know 100% right now”

I do believe strongly that Jehovah’s witnesses are God people and I have my reasons for that, here is one, after all the site is called ‘JW Struggle’ and I can tell you I struggle.

Jesus made the criteria for everlasting life clear at John 17:3 “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ”.

John 17:3 (New International Version)
“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent”

Barns notes say this about John 17:3 “The word “know” here, as in other places, expresses more than a mere speculative acquaintance with the character and perfections of God. “It includes all the impressions on the mind and life which a just view of God and of the Saviour is fitted to produce.” It includes, of course, love, reverence, obedience, honor, gratitude, supreme affection. “To know God as he is” is to know and regard him as a lawgiver, a sovereign, a parent, a friend. It is to yield the whole soul to him, and strive to obey his law”

Having the correct understanding of John 17:3 is fundamental to everlasting life, we can’t just have a warm fuzzy feeling of “I love Jesus”. In fact a proper understanding is critical to life. Now I’ve read a fare bit of this site and the concession is the Watchtower has many things wrong respecting the prophetic word and I would agree. However the fundamentals of understanding the Father and the Son are correct, namely the Father and the Son are two distinctive individuals who identify as “Almighty” and “Mighty”, they have a unique and special relationship. This is a fact Christendom has failed to recognize, thus those who place their faith in a trinitarian god will not receive life eternal, Jesus made that clear, sincerity alone and good works are not enough, we must know and recognize who Jesus is and what his relationship is to the father.

Now on the point of getting it wrong. Yes Jehovah’s witnesses do have some things wrong but lets face it Christendom has everything wrong. The understanding of the prophetic word is not relevant or essential to everlasting life i.e. “this generation” or whatever else has been interpreted as “truth” only to be changed and flip-flopped years later. In the end those who continue to hang on to 1914 and the like when Jehovah’s day arrives and the laundry is washed will not be able to stand, the ‘wheat’ and the ‘weeds’ will be sifted and and refined and true knowledge will become abundant at that time.

Malachi 3:2-4 reads “But who will be putting up with the day of his coming, and who will be the one standing when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye of laundrymen. And he must sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and must cleanse the sons of Le′vi; and he must clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness. And the gift offering of Judah and of Jerusalem will actually be gratifying to Jehovah, as in the days of long ago and as in the years of antiquity|”

What happens to the rest of humanity in the day of Jehovah remains to be seen, I won’t play judge or be dogmatic about that, but yes I do believe a spiritual nation has been born who have a proper understanding of the nature of God and his son, namely Jehovahs witnesses, what they are experiencing is an “operation of error” an error that will soon be remedied.

Really who else recognises the Father and his name Jehovah, none that I know of. That makes Jehovah’s witnesses unique in that respect. Jesus made his Fathers name apparent “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world”.

If those of other religions are to be saved I ask you at what point will they recognize the trinity as a lie, and at what point will they recognise the Father?

Hi Simpleman
Thanks for your viewpoint on the subject. I would agree with you when you say that most of mainstream Christendom has it wrong on the trinity. I am not a trinitarian either.

There are many, many christian groups that do not believe in the trinity. For instance do some research on christadelphians.

It is true that we need to strive to worship God in truth. But there are a number of doctrines where the JWs are also wrong. What percentage of false doctrine is acceptable to God? 10% 20%?

The fact is nobody can be sure what is the truth on all points of doctrine. We can only try the best we can. However when Jesus was on the earth did he concentrate on clearing up false doctrine? Rarely did he even talk about doctrinal issues. Read Jesus’ most famous speech “The Sermon on the Mount” and compare how many times he talks about doctrine and how many times he talks about how we should treat each other as human beings. So what is most important for salvation? A keen mind able to decipher the meaning of doctrine and prophecy? or someone who loves God with his whole heart and mind, has a strong faith in Jesus and his sacrifice, and loves his fellowman and shows it?
The JW organization has elevated the love of doctrine over the love of people. They do not consider other Christians to be their brothers because they believe differently than they do.

If you don’t believe that the FDS has been appointed by Christ and you don’t believe the weeds and wheat have been separated, than why would you believe that only JWs are acceptable to God?

I see where you are coming from and I too at one time felt Jehovah’s Witness’s were God’s people even though they had an “operation of error”. I devoted a lot of time debating the trinity online around the world on forums and through e-mails. I sent e-mails to any preacher online I could find and I found many. I did this for a few years.

When I was DFed (wrongly in my opinion) I thought I would examine all I could about JW’s. I spent a lot of time on the web site http://www.jwfacts.com and I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to know all the facts about JW’s.

Do you really think God cares about what is in your brain so much more than what is in your heart? The Bible says God is searching the heart. What does that mean? I could go on and on about this but you raised a different question. You think that people who do not know Gods name is Jehovah and believe in a triune God are not going to survive.

First lets talk about the name of Jehovah. I too felt this was highly important. To make a very long story short, the name Jehovah is not accurate at all and the JW’s admit this fact but they still hold to it because of its “familiarity”. Is that consistent with the rest of there teachings? Is “familiarity” or popularity a reason to except anything? Usually the contrary with JW’s. They admit that Yahweh is far more accurate yet they still insist on using Jehovah. WHY? For more on this subject please review this: http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/jehovah.php

Please consider Acts 4:10-12, “let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´, whom YOU impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of YOU. This is ‘the stone that was treated by YOU builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’ Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.” (NWT)

What does that mean? Why doesn’t it say JEHOVAH here???

You implied those who believe the trinity can’t be saved…

Consider 1 John 2:23, “Everyone that denies the Son does not have the Father either. He that confesses the Son has the Father also.” (NWT) Think about that please…

Consider Romans 10:9, “For if you publicly declare that ‘word in your own mouth,’ that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.” According to you this isn’t true… hmmmm

I can go on and on with these types of scriptures and this reasoning but I won’t.

PLEASE… really think about this statement Jesus said at John 15:22, ” If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.” (NWT)

Do you get the point there? If they don’t know they are wrong they are not committing sin willfully right?

Consider John 9:41, “Jesus said to them: “If YOU were blind, YOU would have no sin. But now YOU say, ‘We see.’ YOUR sin remains.”

What in the world is Jesus getting at here? Sounds to me that those who think they understand it all don’t know anything at all according to Jesus. Claiming to understand everything may be viewed as a sin in itself. I certainly think it is!

Consider Psalms 15:1-5, ” O Jehovah, who will be a guest in your tent? Who will reside in your holy mountain? He who is walking faultlessly and practicing righteousness and speaking the truth in his heart. He has not slandered with his tongue. To his companion he has done nothing bad, and no reproach has he taken up against his intimate acquaintance. In his eyes anyone contemptible is certainly rejected, But those fearing Jehovah he honors. He has sworn to what is bad [for himself], and yet he does not alter. His money he has not given out on interest, And a bribe against the innocent one he has not taken. He that is doing these things will never be made to totter.” Are these only Jehovah’s Witness’s???

To speak “truth in his heart” one must be honest with himself as well with others. it doesn’t mean he has to understand all truth because that is impossible. These scriptures describe a good honest charitable human being with a good LOVING heart. Not a all knowing wise person.

How can you view all the trinitarians in this world and think God is going to destroy them because they believe Jesus and God are one? Many have differing views of it and most admit they don’t understand it. But they do understand that Christ is their mediator and savior. THAT is something MOST EVERY JW denies as Jesus is NOT their mediator. According to Matthew 28:18 Jesus said, “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” What does that tell you? He might as well be God! HE HAS ALL THE AUTHORITY OF GOD!

I would be VERY careful of judging anyone on this Earth as unworthy to be saved. Only God can read the heart and only he can save. There are millions of millions of good hearted people who believe the trinity. They do good and are honest.

Jehovah’s Witness’s are known as being false prophets. Are you blind to that? What does the Bible/OT say should be done with false prophets? Do you really think “Gods nation” are these people? Come on! I believe some have good hearts and will be saved eventually, probably in the 1000 years. For curtain the false prophets will not be with Christ in heaven. ALL who profess to be christian are among the weeds and wheat in every nation. Nobody has 100% truth. NOBODY… God reads the HEART not the RELIGION or the MIND but the HEART.

I enjoyed that Greybeard. Thank you for all of the thoughts and scriptures. I had to chime back in somewhere. My computer has been down for a few days, as this is a new one.

I thought of a sister who was disfellowshipped in her late 80s, from a comment you made here. She was a partaker. She had decided that the WTS was correct in saying that Yahweh was a more accurate spelling of the Divine Name of Almighty God, and though the elders tried disuading her with this, she stuck with her conviction. As a result, the dear old lady was kicked to the gutter. Amazing!
Much can be said on the Name. I have found by research that the various forms are indiginous to location around the world. It seems to me that Yehowah could be the closest to original. At any rate, I notice that which ever way I say His Name in prayer, each of them yield the same good result.

I had another thought on 1 John 2:23, “Everyone that denies the Son does not have the Father either. He that confesses the Son has the Father also.” Do the 7 million JW’s except Jesus as their mediator? Here is the Jehovah Witness view:

“So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the
“mediator” only for anointed Christians.”
Watchtower 1979 April 1 p.31

The majority of all the 7 million JW’s reject Christ and replaced him with the FDS. The FDS is their mediator. They do not partake as Christ told them to and thus they are dead. According to 1 John 2:23 they not only reject Jesus/Yeshua but the Father as well.

Greybeard, I appreciate your zeal for truth in convincing others how important partaking of the emblems are. And I believe you are right that the majority of JWs disobey Jesus in not partaking of the emblems.
However, the emblems symbolize Christ’s flesh and blood and our partaking of them symbolize our faith in his sacrifice and helps to keep that sacrifice always in front of us. It would be of greater importance to actually have faith in Christ’s sacrifice than simply symbolize that faith by partaking.

What I’m trying to say is that just because a JW is confused and been misled not to partake does not mean they are dead in God’s eyes. Just as a wedding ring which is a symbol of marriage is not nearly as important as the marriage itself, so too the symbol of having faith in Christ’s sacrifice, though quite important, is not as important as the actual faith in Christ’s sacrifice.

I hope I didn’t come off as saying all one needs to do is partake of the emblems. That would be like wearing a wedding ring but not being faithful to the marriage would it not? I to believe that many JW’s will be saved but I do not believe they will be taken to heaven or rule with Christ based on what Jesus said at John 6:53, “… “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves.” The BG/WTorg admit they are viewed as dead until after the 1000 years have ended. My point is that JW’s do not follow Christ commands. They follow the FDS and the FDS is their mediator. I have many JW friends and family and I believe they will make it through on the Earth hopefully but as far as the true heavenly calling I don’t think so. For that matter I myself am working on my relationship with Christ as I still have not partaken so I put myself in the same position as any who have not. If all one has to do is dedicate themselves in their heart to Christ, I did that many years ago. I happen to think we also have to “wear the wedding ring” sorta speak.

It is my opinion that JW’s are one many Christian groups that have got some things right, but as the old adage says, knowledge puffs up. And to be sure JW’s have big Pharisaical ego’s puffed up because of having some points of doctrine correct. If anybody thinks JW’s are unique in our understanding of God and the Kingdom look here (http://members.shaw.ca/homechr.....ticles.htm OR TRY http://focusonthekingdom.org/)there are other groups ‘out there’ very similar to us.

The time is yet ahead for ALL earth’s inhabitants to face and make a decision on whose side they stand; in the same way our first parents had to. At THAT time it won’t matter who you say you are, it will be WHERE you are. All things will boil down to having the mark of the beast or the mark of God.

All though there are many things I DON’T KNOW, I do know God is fair. Every man, woman and child regardless of present religious affiliation will get a fair opportunity to take their stand. Their own personal decision they make will either excuse themselves or condemn themselves.

As far as anger is concerned, yeah I still feel angry when I think of the so called GB (‘faithful slave’) and I hope they receive their ‘reward’ in full.

“Every man, woman and child regardless of present religious affiliation will get a fair opportunity to take their stand. Their own personal decision they make will either excuse themselves or condemn themselves”

Just to clarify that Lonelysheep, if an individual does not expect the Father and the Son as two separate and distinctive individuals but one, and they don’t bow to the beast they gain everlasting life, seems to contradict what Jesus said at John 17:3 concerning everlasting life.

Really, at what point will they except the Father and Son as not being part of a trinity?

Simply put, Jehovah’s Witness’s don’t even come close when they refer to the Father as Jehovah and the son as Jesus. They admit this. So if the way you understand John 17:3 is the key then you better get their names right wouldn’t you think? Jehovah is a bastardised rendering of the tetragrammaton where they used the vowels from Adonai (LORD) and inserted them with YHWH.
Yahweh is WAY more accurate for the Father as Yeshua is for the Son. This is a well known fact. JW’s don’t even come close when they think they are using Gods name.

Who was Jesus speaking to here? I would say, “those conscious of their spiritual need” wouldn’t you? So this is those who go to heaven. According to John 6:53, “… Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves.” This leaves out the 7 million JW’s who do not partake. Simply put, John 17:3 only applies to christians with the one and only heavenly hope. All others are Dead in Gods eyes. Not until the end of the 1000yrs do they come alive.

lonelysheep you may well be correct about other groups, I wont rule it out, time will tell. But in all honestly the religions of this world are far removed from God, few know God has a name nor do they concerned themselves with it, in addition few understand the bible has a theme. I’ve met countless who tell me they are born again but are emotionally warped up with it all, they tell me they are saved and will be with the Lord, there’s very little reasoning with them.

Jehovah speaks in the bible as having a people “my people” he calls them. “My people” denotes a distinctive group, a group who heart is inclined towards Jehovah himself. It’s this group that is first judge by him through Christ when he comes as a laundryman to root out the weeds from the wheat.

John 6:53, “Accordingly Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves.”

How DEAD is THAT?

Most of the 7,000,000 JW’s fall into this DEAD category thanks to the FDS False Prophet that you recognize as being in error…. Jesus said his sheep know his voice! Those are not Jesus sheep! They are DEAD according to Jesus. There is only one Christian hope and that is heaven. The two christian hopes JW’s teach is a 100% lie. Yes the “meek” will inherit the earth but they are not “conscious of their spiritual need” but those who are “conscious of their spiritual need” will see the Kingdom of God. Those “conscious of their spiritual need” follow Christ and partake of his “body” and “flesh” and are reborn.

Simpleman:
lonelysheep you may well be correct about other groups, I wont rule it out, time will tell. But in all honestly the religions of this world are far removed from God, few know God has a name nor do they concerned themselves with it, in addition few understand the bible has a theme. I’ve met countless who tell me they are born again but are emotionally warped up with it all, they tell me they are saved and will be with the Lord,there’s very little reasoning with them.

Jehovah speaks in the bible as having a people “my people” he calls them. “My people” denotes a distinctive group, a group who heart is inclined towards Jehovah himself. It’s this group that is first judge by him through Christ when he comes as a laundryman to root out the weeds from the wheat.

Brother,

Which scriptures are you referring to that are representative of a specific, distinctive group of individuals that are set apart in the world today and where Yahweh refers to them as “My People”? I want to make sure I understand exactly what you’re thinking of and not make any assumptions.

Yes, Simpleman. I would like seeing the verses you have in mind too. Here is the link to an article Andrew posted previously, which lends itself well to this question, and is worthy of a review. http://www.jwstruggle.com/2011.....tard-seed/
I agree with him, since the scriptures align so well for identifying who “God’s people”.

Love and Truth are not mutually exclusive. Both should work in tandem. So to those who say ‘knowledge only’ I say go to LOVE and to those who say ‘love only’ I say go to KNOWLEDGE.

Yes Jesus made it quite clear that love would be the identifying mark of Christians but he also identified that knowledge was also an important component. So it is not an either or the other. But BOTH. However we have to be cautious with that which we call knowledge, because all to often we can become dogmatic and it is true that NO religious group or person has 100 percent knowledge.

I think Andrew put it correctly when he said love of doctrine is elevated above people. That is so true. What makes the situation worst is that Truth is no longer even on the agenda of the GB. So I would add that LOVE OF DOCTRINE has been elevated over love of Brothers and over love of Truth itself.

Regarding my comments of the witness that the whole world will receive, consider this point. At Mth 10:23 Jesus prophesied that the preaching work will not be completed UNTIL HE ARRIVED. So that means the efforts of JW who believe they have covered the earth is NOT in fulfilment of Jesus’ assurance that ‘this good news will be preached, then the end will come’. And the facts speak for themselves. Most Arab countries and those in India and far east have barely been touched. However, when the true presence of Christ begins (not the 1914 nonsense) then as he promised, the preaching work will be undertaken in a dramatic way with an out pouring of Holy Spirit that has not been witnessed since Pentecost. This preaching, coupled with events that will be taking place at the time will ensure that NOBODY is left out and ALL will have to take a stand. This has been very brief, because I have to rush off, but think about it….

Please accept what I am about to say, in the spirit that it is given, one of love for my fellow brother.

I think you will find that Greybeard has put it as good as any one can regarding your comments.

I’ll just ask you for a genuinely honest answer to the following questions;

1) “If the GB is God’s channell on earth today, why are they making errors that they pass off as old light, needing to be replaced by new light?”

2) As I see it, “if the WTS was in fact God’s organization, why are they making mistakes….or is it the Holy Spirit that is making the mistakes?”

Please read Jeremiah 31, & you will see that the time is now when each of God’s true servants don’t need to be held captive within an unloving organization, as they are no longer being taught by their neighbor, but have God’s laws written on their hearts.

I fully endorse Greybeards comments with regard to the use of the name Jehovah, but will go one step further & say that I believe that the person that we know as Jehovah/Yahweh in the OT, is perhaps the Lord Jesus in the NT, & that perhaps “Almighty God”, the Father of all, is another person altogether. I have done much homework on this.
Just ask yourself who it was that brought Israel out of Egypt, & led them through the promised land….then check who Paul said that it was. ALSO check you KI transliterations, & you wont find any reference to the name Jehoveh, except in the full english text. What you will find is that God is refered to as Theos with a captital T. Please also read the book of John, as above, & no where will you find Jesus addressing His Father by name EVER, only in the NWT outside of the transliteration.

Please give what I’ve said a genuine look at, & meditate on the scriptures, don’t just rely on the NWT, but check out any reputable translation such as the ESV, NASB, RSV, any of these are much more reliable. In my studies, I’ve found that the WTS are continually accusing other religious bodies of certain arrors, which they themselves are guilty of. I didn’t see this until I stepped back & had a good & genuine look for myself.

This is not a rant, but the result of several years of investigative studies of the WTS/GB. If I told you what I have actually found out, you would not believe me, & because of my long time “within”, can say that when I started to find out different things, they made sense, as I could remember certain elements that I had observed happening, historically, myself.

I don’t say the following without substantial research & experience…..I cannot believe that there is ANY religious or other organization that can truthfully be called God’s on the earth today. The nearest we can get to this is the remaining ones of the “saints” who are still alive at this time, & these are not limited to a denominational title of any description, they are simply the brothers (& sisters) of Our Lord & Master!

I agree with Greybeard that these ones will include some of those who accept the trinity, for the same reasons as Greybeard gave you.

Believe me, there is life outside the WTS’s very narrow & controlling influence, there are many, many true Christians who are NOT JW’s.

I have done a simple paper as a preliminary, but I have two problems at present.
1) The computer that I have all of my notes on decided to freeze about a month ago, & I.m not sure if I had saved that paper to an external HD or not.
2) As I’m still in the middle of moving at the moment, I won’t have time to either re-do the article or repair the computer, but will do so ASAP, lots of things in boxes.

There are several important studies (at least for me) that I intend to do, & this is one of them, another is the person of the Holy Spirit, heaven or earth as the destination for the saints, plus a couple of others.

Am at present reading a book by William Barcley, “The Gospel of John & Acts”. I have started with Acts, as I’m particularly interested in the operation of the HS in connection with the Apostles. At this stage it seems to me that the Apostles may have actually been spoken to by the HS audibly. This occurence is spoken of in the book of Acts, as happening about 40 times. The bible itself actually says this.

There are a number of identifying marks that act as indicators that Jehovah’s witnesses are Gods people, I will address them one at a time.

Religion and politics.
We know the whole world lies in the power of the wicked one Satan, and that of cause is why Jehovah’s witnesses have not involved themselves in the political affairs of this world. Jesus stated “Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU”. The term “YOU” denotes he has a people or “my people” who would not be no part in the worlds political affairs, its ways, philosophies and thinking. On the other hand Christendom and its members are heavily involved within the political arena, evolution and worldly thinking, thus they belong to the world.

Stand outside a polling booth you would find Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostal’s etc voting in the hope that some government will prove to be better than the previous one, can we honestly say they are “without spot from the world”. (James 1:27) The Oxford History of Christianity states: “The ‘world’ is also a term in Christian usage for something alienated from God and hostile to him.” Are not the political element of this world a human action perpetrated by the Devil, something Jehovah will do away with when the kingdom arrives. Really can we worship God and be part of this system of things – NO -yet many do.

The religions of this world are far removed from 1st century Christianity as noted by Oxford professor E. G. Hardy who wrote: “Tertullian enumerates many things which were impossible for a conscientious Christian, as involving idolatry: e.g. oath usual at contracts; the illumination of doors at festivals, etc.; all Pagan religious ceremonies; the games and the circus; the profession of teaching secular [heathen classical] literature; military service; public offices.”— Christianity and the Roman Government

Engaging in the above is a contamination of our faith, time enough has past for us to differentiate between what is acceptable and what is not …we cannot cherry-pick our faith as many do, once we know the wrong we need to avoid it.

War is another factor to consider. Personally I would not be party to a religion that involves itself in the politics and wars of this world. Both the first and second world wars were fuelled by the churches of Christendom, be it main stream i.e. Catholics/Church of England/Baptists or Methodist the list goes on who were willing to and are still are ready to go to war in the name of so-called freedom should the need arise…I ask whose side would Jesus had been on in the Wars of the 20th century?

Not one JW lifted a gun in the name of so-called freedom, they are free of blood guilt in that respect.

Being no part of this world is essential if one is to please God well – remember the world as we know it belongs to the Devil, a world no Christian need be party to.

It appears you haven’t read anything we posted to your questions. You haven’t replied to any of them. However I will continue to reply in hopes that others besides yourself will read these posts to your questions/statments.

If it is so wrong to VOTE for the Jehovah Witness then why is it not a disfellowshipping offense? True most do not vote but it is not a scriptural command not to thus they do not DF for it. All I got to say is THANK GOD many people (religions you named) in this country do because if they didn’t things would be much worse.

So you think everything in this government is of Satan? Please read:

Romans 13:1-4, “1 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.” (NWT)

2 Peter 2:13-14, “For the Lord’s sake subject yourselves to every human creation: whether to a king as being superior 14 or to governors as being sent by him to inflict punishment on evildoers but to praise doers of good.” (NWT)

Tell me why is it the JW’s didn’t recognize the true meaning of these scriptures until the 1950’s?

While at the same time all the other religions got the point?

You mention WAR, what did Jesus say to those in the military service?

Luke 3:14, “Also, those in military service would ask him: “What shall we also do?” And he said to them: “Do not harass anybody or accuse anybody falsely, but be satisfied with YOUR provisions.” (NWT)

Acts 10:1-2, “1 Now in Caes·a·re´a there was a certain man named Cornelius, an army officer of the Italian band, as it was called, 2 a devout man and one fearing God together with all his household, and he made many gifts of mercy to the people and made supplication to God continually.” (NWT)

Why didn’t Jesus DISFELLOWSHIP these men? Why didn’t he set them straight as the JW’s would?

Tell me Simpleman,

If a group of bad men came to your home to plunder you and your family would you passively stand by and watch them kill your children and rape your wife? OR WOULD YOU GO TO WAR? Thats what defending your family and neighbor is, it is called WAR. Would you defend your neighbor? If not I surly would hate to have you as a neighbor.

Jehovah’s Witness’s are not hated for following Christ as they do not follow Christ. They are hated because of their foolish passive stand when it comes to government and country. Also the undeniable FACT that they are False Prophets many times over.

If it wasn’t for the “trinitarians” and “religions” who fought in those wars against ungodly nations YOU and I would be speaking German and Japanese. YOU wouldn’t have freedom of religion.

None of your statements prove anything except you have been brain washed by the Watchtower because, more than likely, in your life you have spent more time reading it than the Bible.

To be without spot from the world means the wicked filthy things of this world. God loved the “WORLD” so much he gave his only begotten Son”.

GOD LOVES IT! So you really need to figure out what the word “world” means. Not everything is wickedly of Satan in this “world” as you presume.

1 Timothy 2:1-3, “I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men, 2 concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness. 3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God…” (NWT)

Try doing just that some day in your Kingdom Hall, Pray for the president and those in high station in this government! You would only be following scripture! More than likely they would DF you if you didn’t recant.

Sorry if I seam to be on a soap box, I understand where you are at because I was there. I just happen to be repulsed by the JW org and their brain washed views.

Simpleman said, “There are a number of identifying marks that act as indicators that Jehovah’s witnesses are Gods people”

This statement is exclusionary and implies that all people that aren’t JW’s are not Gods People (and if not God’s people will be destroyed at Armageddon, as only Gods People will survive it). Is this your belief? Are JW’s Gods exclusive people on the Earth today in your view?

Simpleman said, “Jesus stated “Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU”. The term “YOU” denotes he has a people”

In the context of this scripture the one’s referred to as “YOU” are chosen out of the world and are specifically his spirit anointed disciples. These are no part of the world of unbelieving mankind. The “YOU” being spoken of here ALL have a heavenly hope when taken in context. Since the vast majority of JW’s don’t profess a heavenly call they are not included in the term “YOU” in these verses. If the term “YOU” here denotes Yahweh has a separate and unique people most of JW’s would not be counted among them.

John 17:9 (HCSB) 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world but for those You have given Me, because they are Yours.

A few verses later he enlarged the group he was praying for to include spirit anointed Christians that would come into the flock from his disciples efforts.

John 17:20-21 (HCSB)
20 I pray not only for these, but also for those who believe in Me through their message.
21 May they all be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You. May they also be one in Us, so the world may believe You sent Me.

These one’s have an inheritance in the kingdom of Heaven and are set apart from the world of unbelieving mankind.

John 17:14 (HCSB)
14 I have given them Your word. The world hated them because they are not of the world, as I am not of the world.

Again, these spoken of here that are no part of the world are spirit anointed Christians.

John 17:24 (HCSB)
24 Father, I desire those You have given Me to be with Me where I am. Then they will see My glory, which You have given Me because You loved Me before the world’s foundation.

Colossians 1:13 (HCSB)
13 He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son He loves.

And finally,

John 17:21 (HCSB)
21 May they all be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You. May they also be one in Us, so the world may believe You sent Me.

Still, the Lord holds out hope for the world of unbelieving mankind, those who are not spirit anointed Christians. These I believe will come to a knowledge of Christ by means of The Church and his kingdom in the millennium.

Simply put, The World represents unbelieving mankind and those that are not part of the world represent spirit anointed Christians. It is because these (spirit anointed Christians) are reckoned free from Adamic guilt, justified through the blood of Christ, that they are in any sense of the word like our Lord Jesus, on a similar footing of divine favor and separateness from the world.

John 17:16 (NASB)
16 “They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

As can be seen when sectarian colored glasses are removed, Jn. 17:3 and James 1:27 in no way proves the WTBTS premise that they are uniquely and exclusively Yahweh’s people. Any such effort requires reading into scripture that which is not there, misapplication of scripture and circular reasoning. These scriptures do not support your premise. Since the underlying premise is not supported I won’t address the other points you built atop that premise.

Simpleman is making a good point and saying “It appears you haven’t read anything we posted to your questions” strikes me as a rude thing to say. Maybee you don’t mean it that way but it still sounds rude to me.

I didn’t mean it to sound rude at all. I was simply stating a FACT that he didn’t respond to anything we said. He asks questions. We respond and then he just goes on with more statements without responding to ours. By the way, what “good point” are you referring too? Are you also a JW or a person who believes the JW’s are “Gods people”?

Dennis asked him a simple direct question and I quote, “Which scriptures are you referring to that are representative of a specific, distinctive group of individuals that are set apart in the world today and where Yahweh refers to them as “My People”? I want to make sure I understand exactly what you’re thinking of and not make any assumptions.”

I quoted many scriptures that refuted his reasoning and he never responded. Typical of all JW’s. Sorry if you believe I am rude. I am here out of love for my brothers who are seeking truth as I myself am. I have found JW’s to be false prophets and not chosen by Jesus in 1918.

If you are a JW then what are you doing on this web site unless you yourself have doubts like the rest of us?

I think balance is needed in evaluating JWs or any other denomination. There are no perfect denominations nor are there any christian denominations that have no redeeming qualities.

The same can be said of the members of those denominations. Just as we know it is wrong to judge all people of a certain race or nationality as being a certain way, we shouldn’t group all christians of a certain denomination in a certain category. This is called prejudice.

We will be judged as individuals, it is very probable that it will not matter if we were a baptist, catholic or JW. We will stand before the judgement seat alone not with other members of our congregation or organization. Therefore what they did will have no bearing on our judgement.

I would agree with some of what Simpleman says, in connection with politics.

When I was a teenager, WELL before I had even met or heard of a religious group called JW’s I had come to the conclusion that politics was a dead end. I lived my convictions before becoming a JW or knowing their stand and decided not to vote.

I got a measure of ridicule from my family, who now years later and several governments later have said they now sympathise with my stance, although not being JW’s themselves. As I see it, you can’t vote for two opposing parties, any more than one can vote for God and Man at the same time.

However, since we are not in the time of the final judgement, I don’t believe Jah will hold our past against us. The real ‘vote’ that will count is whether we take the mark of the wild beast or take our stand with Jesus and his brothers. Goats on the left, Sheep on the right. This will happen at the ‘conclusion of the system of things’, which has not started as yet. All men and women will have to make their choice and live or die with the consequences of their choice. Jesus will ensure that nobody is ignorant of the issues. No one, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, Pentecostal,Taoist,Atheist (etc,etc..) will be left ignorant (Eze 38:23)

I have never voted myself and like you, I am not crazy about politics. However according to Romans 13:1-4 “the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God” So to insist on not voting is not biblical in my opinion. The Bible is clear on why these authorities are in place and who has put them there. I have a close friend who was is a JW that took a job as a prison guard. Because he carries a gun and works for the prison, “authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God” they will not allow him to have any privileges in the Hall. Just as well in my opinion. If we didn’t have these men “placed in their relative positions by God” what would this world be like? No police? No government? JW’s are ANTI Romans 13:1-4 Big time in my opinion.

That last scan of the Feb 15 WT 2009 brings up in me all kinds of emotions and reminds me why I DESPISE that self promoting slave. May the Lord Jesus Christ strike ‘him’ down with the Spirit from his mouth and rid us of the carbuncle that shames Him and his God and ‘us’.

“It appears you haven’t read anything we posted to your questions. You haven’t replied to any of them. However I will continue to reply in hopes that others besides yourself will read these posts to your questions/statments”

Its not that I haven’t answered the posts here, in actual fact I have read them. I am though snowed under with work and don’t have that much time to post. I don’t like posting from my Mobile phone so I’m limited to the time I can spend on the internet, but I will try over the next few weeks to post some answers to the comments you’ve made.

Greybeard said:
“Jehovah’s Witness’s are not hated for following Christ as they do not follow Christ. They are hated because of their foolish passive stand when it comes to government and country”

Jehovah’s witnesses do follow Christ and much has been written about that on how and why we need to develop Christ like qualities, sorry can’t agree on that one.

Did not Jesus say “If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU. If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own”

Yes “the world would be fond of what is its own” is it any wonder they are hated, they have no part to play in the world other than being law abiding citizens, so is it any wonder the world hates them.

They stand for the “Kingdom of God”, something that will wipe this system out forever, Satan is aware of that fact, so what do you expect, hatred and persecution are part of the course. Did not Jesus say “And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me”.

One of the reasons I became a witnesses was because they did not concern themselves with the things of the world, why should they, “Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever”. One cannot slave for the world and Kingdom.

Greybeard said:

“Also the undeniable FACT that they are False Prophets many times over”

I suggest a close examination of Ezekiel 13. Remember Israel of old were Gods people, note the term “my people” in the text, why should we expect anything different today from Gods people. Jehovah put up with a great deal from that nation until he disciplined them by the hands of the Babylonians. Jehovah will do the same today. Ask yourself where does the judgement start: “For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the end be of those who are not obedient to the good news of God?”

The first century Christians were put to death simply for believing in Jesus. Jesus said, “on account of my name you will be hated “Not the name “Jehovah”. They commanded them to stop preaching in the mane of Jesus. They were not “Jehovah’s Witness’s as the Watchtower wronly claims. After I was disfellowshipped I realized JW’s were not hated as much as I thought they were. i found that most all who claimed to be christian actually loved the JW and many considered us as fellow brother. Believe it or not. In general, this ungodly world hates most religion all the same. I know you won’t believe that.

I have left enough information for you to reply to and I am looking forward to your reply. Please read my comments and comment on these scriptures: 1 John 2:23, Romans 10:9, John 15:22, John 9:41, Psalms 15:1-5,1 John 2:23, Romans 13:1-4, 2 Peter 2:13-14,Luke 3:14, Acts 10:1-2, 1 Timothy 2:1-3.

I would like also to ask you, just what do you believe as far as the FDS? Are you required to obey them as all JW’s are or do you feel different about that? Do you trust them as they claim God and Christ do? See paragraph 11 of this WT scan :http://www.jwfacts.com/images/w-09-feb-15-p27.jpg

Greybeard said:
“The first century Christians were put to death simply for believing in Jesus. Jesus said, “on account of my name you will be hated “Not the name “Jehovah”.

Given most of the Western world professes Christianity it would be a bit ridiculous if Christians were persecuted and put to death for believing in Jesus. The 1st century Christians were a new religion who posed a threat to the old Jewish system and Rome. The British monarchy is intertwined with the Church of England and the Queen attends Church each Sunday, it would be absurd for her to be persecuted for her believe in Jesus. We simply live in different times where the Church plays a major role in state affairs, the House of Lords is another example of this. Also the Roman Catholic church is intertwined with Economic and Social Council in making policy’s at the UN, so belief in Jesus is not enough today to be persecuted.

Think about what Jesus is saying here “If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own”. As I just said the religions of this world are part of it and people are “fond of what is its the own” church and state are bedfellows, whether or not the government likes or hate them is neither here or there, they are nevertheless bedfellows. Jehovah’s witnesses take no part in world affairs of this world, thus they are “hated” for that, being no part of the this Satanic world, a world run by the Devil. So to say they should be in involved with the political processes is an apostasy in itself.

Greybeard said:
“I found that most all who claimed to be christian actually loved the JW and many considered us as fellow brother. Believe it or not. In general, this ungodly world hates most religion all the same. I know you won’t believe that”

That does not surprise me as Jesus said to love your enemy, I’ve been told enough times ‘they’ (who ever ‘they’ are, the church goers) will pray for me. However, before I became a JW I thought they were a bunch of weirdos, but then that was my ignorance at the time. I had someone once tell me “I don’t mind religion but I hate Jehovah’s Witnesses” that’s a mindset among many. I really do believe if a survey were done on religious hatred who would be the most hated out of all Christian religions, I’m quite sure JW’s would come out on top, mainly because of false propaganda, in fact they have been the most persecuted religion of the 20th century, now why is that?

On the other-hand one of the reasons people like the Witnesses is because they have got to know a few overtime and much of their ignorance have been lifted. Jesus spoke about fine conduct, if Jehovah’s Witnesses displays fine conduct among men of the nations that is a witnesses in itself, they win people over without a word. Jesus said “Likewise let YOUR light shine before men, that they may see YOUR fine works and give glory to YOUR Father who is in the heavens”. Peter also wrote: “Maintain YOUR conduct fine among the nations, that, in the thing in which they are speaking against YOU as evildoers, they may as a result of YOUR fine works of which they are eyewitnesses glorify God in the day for [his] inspection” There are people who recognise the good conduct of the Witnesses and as a result inadvertently give glory to God, thus in that respect they are not hated.

Greybeard said:
“They are hated because of their foolish passive stand when it comes to government and country”

So tell me and I would like an answer to this, if Jesus was here on earth today what or who would he vote for. His he a Republican or a Democrat, his he a socialist or Capitalist, what part of the political spectrum would he be? In the wars of the 20th century who’s side would he have taken? Would he have fought with a machine gun or a Tommy gun or would he have lived by what he said “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword”.

I will get around to all you questions, be patient, I need time, something I don’t have much of.

You have got to be kidding us! This is patently uninformed and false brother! You need to subscribe to some Christian magazines such as Christianity Today so you can see more clearly what is happening to Christians throughout the world. Another book you might read to be enlightened on the sufferings of Christians is Living Water by Brother Yun. Christians are in fact being persecuted solely for their belief in Jesus. Not so much in western cultures (which I hope is what you meant here) but they are being extremely persecuted in various Islamic countries, China, etc. The most recent I’ve heard of on the news is a Christian woman waiting for the death penalty in an Islamic State for her Christian beliefs. There are people being persecuted and dying right now for their Christian faith. In some African countries entire Christian communities have been decimated. Just recently in one of those countries a Christian man (a local Pastor I believe) and his two young son’s was burned to death for their belief in Jesus! Christian persecution is easily verified via the internet. Brother if modern day persecution is the bench mark of true Christianity or an identifier of “God’s Earthly Organization” then Jehovah’s Witnesses fall far, far short!

You said, “the Church plays a major role in state affairs, the House of Lords is another example of this. Also the Roman Catholic church is intertwined with Economic and Social Council in making policy’s at the UN”

Yes, this is true and let’s not forget that until a few years ago, JW’s were involved as an NGO just as other religious organizations. Religious organizations do try to politically influence governments to further their agenda’s. An honest evaluation however, exposes the JW organization as doing the same. How? They do it through the court systems with their battery of lawyers all over the world. This is done to further THEIR AGENDA. Sometimes, even when they are not directly involved as was the case in the Jimmy Swaggert friends of the court brief they filed years back. All this proves is that “Religion is a racket and a snare”. It does not prove that Yahweh has an organization. It proves that Yahweh has a people, true Christians that are willing to lay down their lives for their beliefs in his son. They do this despite what the corrupt and mislead hierarchical organizations they are captive of do.

I want to ask you a question and please answer me with a simple yes or no. Is being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses a prerequisite for salvation through Armageddon? The organization say’s yes, what do you say?

You said, “That does not surprise me as Jesus said to love your enemy, I’ve been told enough times ‘they’ (who ever ‘they’ are, the church goers) will pray for me. However, before I became a JW I thought they were a bunch of weirdos, but then that was my ignorance at the time. I had someone once tell me “I don’t mind religion but I hate Jehovah’s Witnesses” that’s a mindset among many. I really do believe if a survey were done on religious hatred who would be the most hated out of all Christian religions, I’m quite sure JW’s would come out on top, mainly because of false propaganda”

I would strongly disagree with your thoughts about a survey. Your view here is to narrowly focused. The world of mankind is made up of many different religious beliefs and if a survey were done such as the one you mentioned I believe the results would indicate that Christianity in general would be the most hated religious persuasion. It is hated by Atheists, Secularist and intensely by Islamist. This again is anecdotal evidence put forth by the Society to try and support their teaching that they alone are Yahweh’s modern day organization and has no basis in reality. The problem here is that JW’s are taught to view all things through organizational colored glasses. We all come to the judgment set of our Lord individually.

You said, “in fact they have been the most persecuted religion of the 20th century, now why is that?”

I am sure the Mormon’s would have something to say about that. Again, you are looking at things far to narrowly, from a Western prospective. The above statement is purely a false premise put forth by Watchtower leadership, again to perpetuate their “God’s only modern day organization” stance and has no basis in fact nor can it be statistically proven.

All these claims made by the Watchtower remind me of Dan. 7:8.
8 “While I was considering the horns, suddenly another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. There were eyes in this horn like a man’s, and it had a mouth that spoke arrogantly.

All of Christendoms leadership including the JW organization (second only to the Catholic Church in my opinion) are guilty of this.

You said, “On the other-hand one of the reasons people like the Witnesses is because they have got to know a few overtime and much of their ignorance have been lifted. Jesus spoke about fine conduct, if Jehovah’s Witnesses displays fine conduct among men of the nations that is a witnesses in itself, they win people over without a word.”

I agree that there are many fine examples found among rank and file JW’s. They are in large part a very sincere and loving people. Why? Because they follow Jesus example and teachings in this regard. ALL THE GLORY goes to our Lord and his father for this! It is nothing that Watchtower leadership should lay claim to.

1 Corinthians 3:7 (NLT)
7 It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow.
Fine conduct however can be found in all religions among individuals who likewise follow Jesus example and teachings.

You said, “So tell me and I would like an answer to this, if Jesus was here on earth today what or who would he vote for. His he a Republican or a Democrat, his he a socialist or Capitalist, what part of the political spectrum would he be? In the wars of the 20th century who’s side would he have taken? Would he have fought with a machine gun or a Tommy gun or would he have lived by what he said “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword”

Christ is above all these earthly issues as it’s his kingdom that is mankind’s only true hope and he is already King of that kingdom. That being said, until that Kingdom exercises ruler-ship upon the Earth, both he and his father realize that in the absence of that kingdom man must at least attempt to govern themselves. I think this is evident from a study of the scriptures and is in harmony with common since. Society could not function if this were not the case. Just because you attempt to govern yourself in the interim does not mean that you don’t acknowledge your limited ability to do so given our imperfection. It does not mean that you don’t fully acknowledge the need for Christ’s kingdom as the final and best solution for mankind.

Don’t forget on one occasion Jesus told his disciples to take a sword.

Luke 22:36 (NKJV)
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

What should we conclude from this? There are times and occasions to take up the sword and to lay down the sword. That is the only way I can reconcile these two statements. There is no evidence that Cornelius resigned his commission as a centurion after he received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:1-2 (HCSB)
1 There was a man in Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment.
2 He was a devout man and feared God along with his whole household. He did many charitable deeds for the Jewish people and always prayed to God.

As a Roman officer he was on the hook as it were, for a set period of time and no doubt would have had to fulfill that commitment as part of rendering unto Cesar. At any rate Luke called him a devout God fearing man while he was STILL a centurion. Would Jehovah Witnesses say the same thing of an Army Officer today? They might say he was devout but he couldn’t be God fearing and still searving in the armed forces. Those two things are diametrically opposed to them. As I try and reconcile all this, there are definitely some difficulties here.

To say that the Watchtower’s stand on this makes them exclusively Yahweh’s modern day organization is a leap. There are still Christian groups that are conscientious objectors as well as Individual Christian’s within organizations. At best, this stance should not identify an organization as Christ’s but an individual as Christ’s.

All this being said, personally I only vote on tax issues, bond issues and if there is an anti-abortion issue I vote on that also (I can not stand by and watch millions of unborn babies being killed without at least trying to stop it). In a nutshell, I don’t vote for people and certainly not one who might send off others to war. I am a conscientious objector. I believe all Christians with a heavenly hope (the one’s being mentioned by Jesus in prayer to his father at John 17) must be very careful with their involvement in affairs of government. I believe these are individual issues as all spirit anointed Christians must individually give an account. Their individual decisions, will individually identify them as true followers of Christ or not. This has nothing to do with the religious organization they belonged
to. An organization will not be with them before the seat of judgment.

I hope all this made since as I’m in a big hurry to catch a flight to Ontario. Gotta run!!!

Thank you Dennis for replying to Simpleman,
Simpleman, I agree with the comments Dennis made.

It truly saddens my heart to see how brainwashed JW’s are. Because I brainwashed my own children with the thinking that you have. I know where you are coming from but you are still living in the Watchtower bubble. I hope all my family get out of it before that bubble pops.

To be honest with you, I really hope you are a member of my family. At least then there is hope that my family truly is checking out the JWorg. Maybe you are by father, maybe you are my brother or one of my son’s. They will not listen to me and have called me apostate. I know they view sites like this as apostate. I encourage you to respond to the scriptures I presented. Please check out http://www.jwfacts.com Please continue to look into all of the JW’s history and question the FDS. Test every inspired expression.

As far as your last question about who would Jesus vote for or fight for. You know God will fight for his kingdom again like he did before with the nation of Israel. As far as politics and politicians… Did not Jesus represent a kingdom? Is he not himself a king? Do not all who hope in him pray for his kingdom? Or do only JW’s do that? Is he not going to remove all these kingdoms and rule himself? Till then what are we to do? We are told by Gods word to be in subjection to the authorities PLACED BY GOD. They are temporary but Gods kingdom will be forever. Jesus NEVER condemned the military who are required to keep peace just as police are. Would you protect your family? If you would then are you not a hypocrite for condemning the military? This country for the most part believes in Jesus. Did you see 911? The people who did that HATE Christians and used that as one of the reasons they did what they did.

I don’t have anymore time today and will be away for a while. I am looking forward to your response.

Simpleman, it may interest you to know that JWorg has not always been separate from politics and war. At one time they were part of the UN. They eventually requested to be removed. In the book “Crisis of Conscience” is copied a letter from the UN stating that they would no longer be recognized as part of the UN per their request.
If you are saying that a church that has anything to do with politics and war are clearly not God’s chosen people then it is clear that JWs wouldn’t be either.

Thank you Andrew! your share describes my journey in seeing the truth about the truth, perfectly. I hope I can meet you and all the rest of my family on the same path. may Jehovah be with you freethinkerinjah

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