You asked for my thoughts so here they are: You can't do serious blue water cruising in a Bendy-Toy.

In fact I'm not a big fan of any of the modern production yachts, especially the ones in the lower price range. Bavaria seem to have about the most solid and stable boats but even then I would be inclinded to look around for something that was solid GRP (not composite, not sandwich construction, solid GRP) or steel, was some years older, and was a good basis to work from and build it up from there.

Two Japanese cruising friends, cruised through SE Asia, down the Australian coast from Thursday Island to Sydney, out to New Caledonia, and before heading to Darwin, spent a couple of days hove to in a cyclone off the north Queensland coast. They subsequently sailed back to the Philippines, Taiwan and home to Oita in Japland.

They were in an Oceanis46. A very good, solid and capable cruising boat. My thoughts on the Beneteau line is they are generally good production boats and will do that which they are designed to do.

The trick is to buy one which is designed for blue water cruising, if blue water voyaging is in your future. I don't know about the 411, but the 423 came onto the scene about 10 years ago I think, and I remember being impressed by the write ups it was given in the sailing press. I guess a quick search of the 'net will bring some of these to light. Beneteau and Group Finot have earned a very good reputation over the years and that would not have developed if they were making junk.

The major problem, in my opinion, with modern production boats is that they are essentially flat bottomed. This is the trade off for the enormous amount of room they have within the hull. The accommodations are truly wonderful and they manoeuvre well in close quarters, but this means they can be a lot more tiring on a voyage than a traditional, narrow gutted, full keeled cruising boat.

I would rather cross an ocean in a traditionally designed craft, but would prefer to live on a modern boat. The balance between the two is always a compromise and your choice should depend upon the style of sailing you do and the cruising grounds through which you will typically be plying your boat.

__________________
"if at first you don't succeed....Redefine success"!

Thank you for your advise, however did you come that conclusion? Is it from experience or here say? To the best of my knowledge the hull of bennys is solid GRP, only the deck is composite. I value your comment, but perhaps you could expand on it.
Looking forward to your response

Two Japanese cruising friends, cruised through SE Asia, down the Australian coast from Thursday Island to Sydney, out to New Caledonia, and before heading to Darwin, spent a couple of days hove to in a cyclone off the north Queensland coast. They subsequently sailed back to the Philippines, Taiwan and home to Oita in Japland.

They were in an Oceanis46. A very good, solid and capable cruising boat. My thoughts on the Beneteau line is they are generally good production boats and will do that which they are designed to do.

The trick is to buy one which is designed for blue water cruising, if blue water voyaging is in your future. I don't know about the 411, but the 423 came onto the scene about 10 years ago I think, and I remember being impressed by the write ups it was given in the sailing press. I guess a quick search of the 'net will bring some of these to light. Beneteau and Group Finot have earned a very good reputation over the years and that would not have developed if they were making junk.

The major problem, in my opinion, with modern production boats is that they are essentially flat bottomed. This is the trade off for the enormous amount of room they have within the hull. The accommodations are truly wonderful and they manoeuvre well in close quarters, but this means they can be a lot more tiring on a voyage than a traditional, narrow gutted, full keeled cruising boat.

I would rather cross an ocean in a traditionally designed craft, but would prefer to live on a modern boat. The balance between the two is always a compromise and your choice should depend upon the style of sailing you do and the cruising grounds through which you will typically be plying your boat.

Thanks for your advise. Yes there are always compromises as you are rightly say. the longest voyage I have ever undertaken was on a Top Hat (Milord) from the Windies to Tahiti. A capable little vessel (25 ft) however, I do not think that it will meet my requirement these days. Being uncomfortable for 30 days whilst under way does not make up for for being "on the beach" uncomfortable as most of the time will be spent just there. Your comment about the quality of high volume production boats is similar to my thoughts, if they where rubbish, nobody would buy them. There are however fine nuances which could make all the difference. Please bear in mind that I do try to avoid anything below Lat 40 if I can help it. Any further thoughts or comments are appreciated.
Sailing, the most expensive way of traveling slow and uncomfortable

Thank you for your advise, however did you come that conclusion? Is it from experience or here say? To the best of my knowledge the hull of bennys is solid GRP, only the deck is composite. I value your comment, but perhaps you could expand on it.
Looking forward to your response

The two Beneteaus that I have been on have both had composite hulls. In the words of one of the crew, we could watch the sun set through the hull.

Having been aboard two for a couple of weeks each and in fact some of what Auzzee has said in defence of Beneteaus has lead me to personally think that I would not like to go long distance cruising on one. They are very flat bottomed and light in the hull and we could see quite a bit of twisting motion going the length of the boat even in moderate seas. The flat bottom leads to the boat being quite bouncy even on short coastal trips with moderate seas. If you are doing tropical cruising, coastal cruising, short-range offshore racing, etc, then this is all perfectly fine. To my mind if you're saying "some serious blue water cruising" then you mean higher latitudes, long ocean crossings and so on and you will be much more comfortable and feel more secure in a deeper, less flat, "traditionally shaped" if you must, vessel.

It's not entirely true to say that all modern production boats are flat bottomed, there are certainly a range of shapes being produced still to this day that are better for ocean crossings. I have crossed the Tasman on a reasonably recently built Cheoy Lee which was solid GRP throughout, quite deep in the hull and the keel and certainly had the feel of a good ocean boat. Have a look around. My advice is not to buy a boat just because it has a well known name to it, get one because it suits what you want to do with it.

Frank for stability and " blue water "a S shape hull, steel, long keel, is nice. There are a few for sale now LOL, older generation that stops sailing and bought their boats in the 1980.
If you want I can give you a few sites to look, asking price of most is 99.000 euro, that means: bring any offer ! Cheers.

(not composite, not sandwich construction, solid GRP)
Hi All,
Read this and wondered what everyone pictured when they read of these types of construction?
As some folks reckon that GRP/FRP is a composite material.

I'm also someone who is getting a little confused about what is "solid" here. Glass-reinforced-plastic? GRP/FRP Glass-reinforced plastic - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Yes? Those are not solid in my book they're a composite. Solid=old style heavy hulls of fiber and resin. Rarely made these days and not necessarily the ideal construction depending upon what one wants anyway. Certainly stiffer though. That can very well be a desirable trait in heavy weather or big seas for sure.

Just because something is light doesn't mean it's not seaworthy on a hostile ocean. It just means it will handle somewhat differently than a heavy or moderate displacement hull would in the same circumstances. Similarly, I recently heard Jimmy Cornell talk about how great his current boat is (um, aluminum...) because of the flat bottom and the centerboard. Literally, he raises the board when running downwind and feels safer because with the hull form (and board up, mind you) there is no keel to trip/broach in the big seas.

Most people don't have a centerboard to lift, unfortunately, with their flat bottomed boats. Often the shallow/wide boats have a fixed keel that can be tricky to deal with.

The point, though, is that safety can come in different formats and require different actions to achieve it. All depends on the boat.

I do think the important bit is purchasing a boat that will let you do what you want to do. If you're going to coastal cruise in an area of mostly light winds then almost anything will work. If you're going for really moving aroudn the globe and crossing oceans, then sailing comfort is most important. Boats with wide open spaces are rarely comfortable in a rough seaway. It's just a fact. The boat designs Frank seems drawn towards are comfy at the dock, a dream in tight quarters, and lovely to look at but may not provide the most comfortable passage making.

After coming across one too many cruisers with flat bottoms and bolt on keels and all complaining of leaking keel bolts of varying concern - I think we'll always stay with an encapsulated semi or full length keel like our Alajuela 33 or our new Antigua 44 ketch. Sure - a lot heavier but in a blow and thumping seas, I know which one I feel safer in.

As an amateur but dedicated carpenter and boat-fixer-upper-er, I still gives me a warm glow when I see cabinetry that has been screwed and plugged professionally rather than the glued or sikaflexed. - You gotta love those craftsmen of yesteryear.

A lot of bendy boats I have seen recently seem to have gone for the sikaflex bulkhead/hull bond which scares the dickens out of me and forgive me all you Germanic yachting friends, the fit out on the Bavaria's remind me of a dyslexic Ikea kitchen

Give me a solid layup any day and I'll happily live with being slowest boat in the fleet.

Mind you, a yachtie mate of mine up in the Philippines left the helm in the middle of the night to make his good lady a cuppa down in the galley (she was already below) and no sooner had he finished fossicking out the chocolate biscuits when they were firmly and none to kindly, booted up the backside by a massive container vessel which tore off their mast, all the rigging and stove in their rear quarter. Fortunately they were in a steel boat. Had they been in a glass boat, solid or composite , they would have gone straight to the bottom. Perhaps a bit of rust is not so bad after all

There are a lot blue water boats around in a budget that will work. You need to spend time on boats, and that will be instantly clear. It happened for me, it will happen for you. Chartering you spend a lot of time on Beneteau's, I would not own one, but that is just me.

The other thing I have learned. Boats are like women, appreciation for them is a very subjective art form. Tall ones, fat ones, skinny ones and everything in between there are benefits to each. Find your own way, the path will open to you Grasshopper. (1980's TV reference).

Go sailing and get on a lot of boats, and don't buy a lot of the experts opinion about how complex it is. If they figured it out, so can you.