Sometimes its a combo of a couple or all 3. If you have pvp'd enough then you know when you are outplayed vs when you are outgeared. Im personally glad the T2 gear is gone for one reason: carries & win-trading. Its very easy for anyone to buy a carry to 2.2k, get the gear, and then keep on being bad...just less bad bc they push out bigger numbers. Its like dropping a crate of loaded M-16s into the chimp cage at the zoo, and opening the gates.

Skill + Experience + Gear should be what determines your success, and not a huge reliance on gear.

Been playing this game since wrath. Back then every piece of gear had a rating requirement. Slowly blizzard started removing rating requirements from gear and now have completely gutted the pvp system so that their is absolutely no progression anymore. Unlike raiding where there is always progression the first weeks and months the raid opens and even after that their are still hard modes that give even better gear. I have always been a decent pvper. Nothing special never gotten glad but have always been above 2200-2300ish. So my question is whats the point in pushing high ratings anymore since you get absolutely NO reward for it other than just too play?

Yeah I stopped right there. You have been around long enough to know that any thing starting with "since Wrath" is going to incur nothing but wrath.

Not by much, because there is no POINT to doing other types of it... WPvP dead for years, anyone?

None of us are arguing we're "threatened" by it - giving away free gear just saturates the entire rating scale, and honestly you end up with UNSKILLED people, able to do more because of the gear they got without gaining skill, but rather just playing week by week. Then you get every DK, rogue, and hunter in the game for example with full tyrannical, and because the way classes are built, they can still destroy someone with little to no skill because of their gear.

Oh so it's now about balance? Complain to Blizzard that their game is broken then.

Been playing this game since wrath. Back then every piece of gear had a rating requirement. Slowly blizzard started removing rating requirements from gear and now have completely gutted the pvp system so that their is absolutely no progression anymore. Unlike raiding where there is always progression the first weeks and months the raid opens and even after that their are still hard modes that give even better gear. I have always been a decent pvper. Nothing special never gotten glad but have always been above 2200-2300ish. So my question is whats the point in pushing high ratings anymore since you get absolutely NO reward for it other than just too play?

Excuse me ?! Plenty of games that focus on pvp, offer very little beyond your own satisfaction that you bested someone. I don't think Counterstrike, Battlefield or any of the beat 'em up games offer any rewards for being good yet people, astonishingly, I know, keep playing them. WHY ??

Excuse me ?! Plenty of games that focus on pvp, offer very little beyond your own satisfaction that you bested someone. I don't think Counterstrike, Battlefield or any of the beat 'em up games offer any rewards for being good yet people, astonishingly, I know, keep playing them. WHY ??

Those games are complete grinds for the rewards, and the rate at which you'll get them increases the better you are - which people here are arguing should not exist at all I guess. When FPS' are more of RPG's than MMORPG's are, there's an issue :P

I agree with the pt. PVP for the titles, prestidge etc etc... I don't need honor but I do BGs because I enjoy the competition. However, the gear progression of PVP is no longer at par with PVE. The barriers to entry have not only been lowered, they've been taken away and the difficulty of end game titles has been diluted. All I say is, R.I.P. WOW pvp - hopefully they will realize the error of their ways and fix it for the next expansion. I seriously hope I am wrong, but I'd be willing to wager a hell of a lot of gold, irl money, whatever - PVP will suck! Just bring flowers to the funeral and hope they fix it - soon (5.3 is NOT the answer it is a major move in the wrong direction).

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 05:11 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Steenk

There are 3 ways to lose (or win for that matter) in pvp

1. Outplayed.
2. Outgeared.
3. Outnumbered.

Sometimes its a combo of a couple or all 3. If you have pvp'd enough then you know when you are outplayed vs when you are outgeared. Im personally glad the T2 gear is gone for one reason: carries & win-trading. Its very easy for anyone to buy a carry to 2.2k, get the gear, and then keep on being bad...just less bad bc they push out bigger numbers. Its like dropping a crate of loaded M-16s into the chimp cage at the zoo, and opening the gates.

Skill + Experience + Gear should be what determines your success, and not a huge reliance on gear.

Excellent Point! I wish I read your opinion before I blurted out mine. My only question is, how do you feel about the "possibility" top notch PVE gear may greatly trump top notch PVP gear? I know Blizzard says - they will be equal, but I am extremely skeptical they are accurate. Hypothetically, we could spin the clock back to CATA with ppl running around with legendaries and toasting everyone. However, now - everyone can have a legendary in form or another - soon. Even without the possiblity of ppl dominating with legendaries, I still believe they will dominate with Valor PVE gear.

I dont think top notch pve gear will trump pvp gear bc of the ilvl scaling down. All the top end raid gear budgeted stats will be scaled down to 498 ilvl stats (str, stam, int etc). Sure they can gem pwer in slots, but gems were cut 50% across the board. Our pvp gear will still have an un-budgeted amount of power on it. We should still hold an advantage. It will definitely not be the advantage we have today, but we should still be better (30-35% better)...world pvp not included. The wildcard in all this, imo, are the pve set bonuses. Some are much stronger than others. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds in this area.

The one thing in all this Im not buying from blizzard: They want more people involved in pvp. Why? It seems like its been a thorn in their side from the day WSG and AB went live. Why make your headache bigger? I personally think that these changes are due to ganking and griefing around the servers. So many people just want to get their PVE dailies done and cant bc they have no real chance of fighting back vs turd gankers. PvP is not something you can voluntarily avoid sometimes. They die mulitple times and are put on a 2min rez. Is that fun for them? Are they enjoying the game? Sure they can pay $ to swap servers, but why should they have to? They get sick of this and they cancel their sub. Ive always thought that anyone on any kind of server, should be able to "opt out" of any kind of world pvp. Seems like an easier fix than all this other crap.

Sometimes its a combo of a couple or all 3. If you have pvp'd enough then you know when you are outplayed vs when you are outgeared. Im personally glad the T2 gear is gone for one reason: carries & win-trading. Its very easy for anyone to buy a carry to 2.2k, get the gear, and then keep on being bad...just less bad bc they push out bigger numbers. Its like dropping a crate of loaded M-16s into the chimp cage at the zoo, and opening the gates.

Skill + Experience + Gear should be what determines your success, and not a huge reliance on gear.

Or 4. Outclassed

I think the frequency of someone losing because of gear is extremely low. It is just convenient to blame gear. It makes them feel better.

How many geared keyboard turners do you see versus ungeared keyboard turners?
How many geared clickers do you see versus ungeared clickers?
How many geared backpeddlers do you see versus ungeared ones?

Dedication and consistency are traits that should be included in the term skill.
You might be brilliant at whatever but if you are not dedicated you are going nowhere.
Genius is largely the result of hard work, rather than an inspired flash of insight. People are just looking for excuses to be lazy.

Originally Posted by rhorle

A Daily quest is about as much effort as organizing 20 people.

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

I agree with the pt. PVP for the titles, prestidge etc etc... I don't need honor but I do BGs because I enjoy the competition. However, the gear progression of PVP is no longer at par with PVE. The barriers to entry have not only been lowered, they've been taken away and the difficulty of end game titles has been diluted. All I say is, R.I.P. WOW pvp - hopefully they will realize the error of their ways and fix it for the next expansion. I seriously hope I am wrong, but I'd be willing to wager a hell of a lot of gold, irl money, whatever - PVP will suck! Just bring flowers to the funeral and hope they fix it - soon (5.3 is NOT the answer it is a major move in the wrong direction).

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 05:11 PM ----------

Excellent Point! I wish I read your opinion before I blurted out mine. My only question is, how do you feel about the "possibility" top notch PVE gear may greatly trump top notch PVP gear? I know Blizzard says - they will be equal, but I am extremely skeptical they are accurate. Hypothetically, we could spin the clock back to CATA with ppl running around with legendaries and toasting everyone. However, now - everyone can have a legendary in form or another - soon. Even without the possiblity of ppl dominating with legendaries, I still believe they will dominate with Valor PVE gear.

I have never understood the thought process of people that pvp in Wow.It hasnt been a secret that Wow is a Pve game first and foremost. It has been televised that Wow is a pve game and youtube videos with developers saying shut up pvp guy no one cares and that Pvp wil never be valued over Pve yet people still keep on with this. Play a Pvp based game if you want Pvp to be first and foremost.

Equalized gear in PvP promotes fair competition. Unless competition is fair it is not real competition.

The team that wins the world series does not get to use aluminum bats while everyone else is using wooden ones.

You thought the leaden winter would bring you down forever, But you rode upon a steamer to the violence of the sun...And you see a girl's brown body dancing through the turquoise, And her footprints make you follow where the sky loves the sea.And when your fingers find her, she drowns you in her body, Carving deep blue ripples in the tissues of your mind.

Gear is an easy advantage to remove without specifically nerfing / buffing classes.

Dedication and consistency typically result in skill as a natural course of things, but aren't an aspect of skill on their own.

It's weird to see the pushback on this.... do you guys simply stop pvp'ing once you get the gear you want?

To answer your question, I only stopped playing once in my wow journey, early wotlk when I cleared the original PVE content relative fast (without actually being anything special as a player) and felt like there was nothing to play for.

I think I will continue playing even in BIS, I am just going to be less excited about it. If I had something to play for in terms of gear I would be far more excited.

---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 09:21 AM ----------

Also one huge motivation in playing WoW for me, has always been to get an edge over somebody who either

a) is less dedicated
b) isn't as a creative and copies top players

One example is Pre-Pandaria, level 85, second wind was that stupid that if I gemmed stamina or resilience (don't remember), I could literally tank indefinately. That way I won a rank 1 mage in a duel.

Was I a better player? no
Did I have better gear? no
Was it fun? hell yeah

I actually outplayed him in terms of creativity. (if i have gemmed anything else he would still kill me) .Blizzard does a blunder in terms of balance and I am amongst the first to take advantage of it.

Originally Posted by rhorle

A Daily quest is about as much effort as organizing 20 people.

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.