#emc | Logs for 2004-12-02

Back[00:20:23]<robin_z> meep? [00:20:45]<paul_c> Not a chance this time of night. ;) [00:20:55]<robin_z> damn ... [00:21:48]<paul_c> back in a bit. [00:23:24]<robinz> bloody firewall [00:24:02]<robinz> todays task is trying to figure out how to build a powder coat booth for $ trivial [00:24:19]<robinz> probably using an old office fan and some washing up liquid bottles [00:26:03]<paul_c> a pair of Val's old knickers, a toilet roll, and some sticky backed plastic. [00:26:28]<robinz> thats the sort of thing ... [00:26:37]<robinz> but without the smell of fish, if possible [00:29:01]<robinz> there went one of me ... [00:30:19]<robinz> I'm trying to find some suitable filters, cheap [00:30:30]<robinz> pleated paper I guess fo rthe final filter [00:30:51]<robinz> I was wondering about just stacking a few dozen of the cheapest car air filters I can find :) [00:30:52]<paul_c> Truck air filters [00:30:56]<robinz> cheap? [00:31:52]<robinz> I figured they;d be in the several undred pound category, no? [00:31:53]<paul_c> Or what about a sheet of the foam they use for 80mm fans [00:32:20]<robinz> foam I fgured would be too leaky [00:32:37]<robinz> I thought pleated paper, or maybe fine weave cloth [00:33:50]<robinz> I have a desire NOT to fill the factory with powder coat!! [00:35:04]<robinz> you think truck air filters might be cheap though?? [00:41:34]<paul_c> Might be worth a look [00:41:57]<paul_c> It really depends on the volume of air you need to filter... [00:42:26]<paul_c> An electrostatic filter might be better. [00:45:50]<paul_c> Hi Ray [00:45:57]<rayh> Hi Paul [00:46:12]<paul_c> Burn No. 5 on the go. [00:46:30]<rayh> Getting closer? [00:47:03]<rayh> I've got 208 fragments in lost and found on the suse box. Think I need to start over? [00:48:06]<paul_c> 'pends where the fragments came from, and more importantly, How. [00:48:50]<rayh> There are only a dozen or so files in /etc now. [00:49:19]<paul_c> That doesn't sound good [00:57:20]<les> robin: still there? [00:59:02]<les> guess not...pity...could tell him about GEMA powder booths [01:02:39]<les> nothing special...pressurize a little room...pleated paper filters...keep a shop vac around [10:44:59]<alex_joni> anybody around? [11:26:27]<alex_joni> guess not [11:58:28]<alex_joni> good morning paul !!! [11:58:45]<paul_c> Yo alex_joni [11:59:07]<alex_joni> I just had a great idea last night [11:59:16]<alex_joni> you'll probably say it's a bunch of bull.. ;) [11:59:22]<alex_joni> but I'll tell you anyhow [11:59:45]<alex_joni> how about this: what if hal modules are smaller things [11:59:56]<alex_joni> e.g. for STG not a driver for the whole board [12:00:03]<alex_joni> but instead drivers for the components [12:00:15]<alex_joni> hal_ls7166 , hal_82c55, etc [12:00:25]<alex_joni> and those can be used for many hardware parts [12:00:42]<alex_joni> just need a base_address for those, and maybe a few more things [12:01:46]<paul_c> Base address, byte boundaries, IO or memory mapped.... [12:02:25]<alex_joni> too complicated ? [12:02:45]<paul_c> Some things are best done in C [12:02:51]<alex_joni> I thought maybe there's a way to have a stg.hal [12:04:10]<alex_joni> well... on the other hand it's not possible to load a module more than once [12:04:48]<alex_joni> so it's pretty complicated to do the param_parsing inside the module (CFG="200 201 202 203") [12:05:29]<paul_c> Pass smple numbers NOT text that requires parsing in kernel space. [12:06:15]<paul_c> manipulating strings in kernel space is all wrong [12:08:50]<alex_joni> I know.. I don't like the cfg from hal_parport [12:09:45]<paul_c> so why follow the example. [12:14:06]<alex_joni> I don't want to... [12:14:27]<alex_joni> I was only checking if it could be done with more components opposed to a single driver file [12:14:35]<alex_joni> and what that would imply [12:18:39]<paul_c> I 'spose taking it to it's logical conclusion, turn every function within EMC in to a HAL module... [12:23:05]<alex_joni> well.. not that extreme [12:23:06]<alex_joni> ;) [12:23:24]<alex_joni> but I agree that keeping stuff in c has it's advantagies [12:23:40]<alex_joni> if it's GPL it can be used in other drivers too... [12:23:46]<alex_joni> right? [12:24:27]<paul_c> Licensing is secondary to the efficient use of code. [12:31:27]<alex_joni> I agree... [12:46:15]<paul_c> Another thing to bear in mind... [12:46:51]<paul_c> gcc can do a far better job of linking and optimising code than most of us. [12:47:23]<alex_joni> how do you mean this? [12:53:47]<paul_c> Write a series of functions that use small (2-3 line) function calls... [12:54:07]<paul_c> bung in some large loops and switch statements [12:56:02]<paul_c> gcc will inline many of the small functions, unroll loops, and skip any unreachable code [12:56:21]<paul_c> Depending on the level of optimisation called for. [12:59:25]<paul_c> Splitting the short functions off into a separate module "just because we can" [13:00:01]<paul_c> and you loose any chance of opimisation. [13:00:50]<paul_c> but, hey, a modern processor can do a jump in less than a nano-second... [13:06:56]<paul_c> Arg... Don't have my Intel book to hand, so can't give a timing for a typical test&branch instruction.. [13:11:55]<jepler> paul_c: they barely publish info like that anymore, it seems like. [13:13:08]<jepler> paul_c: but with many-stage pipelines, a mispredicted branch might take tens of cycles, or >5ns on a 2GHz machine. [13:14:31]<paul_c> The size of the cache(s), pipelines, speed of main memory... [13:31:32]<alex_joni> yeah.. it's all into non-RT direction nowadays [13:55:11]<CIA-4> 03Zathras 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/comps.xml: File changed. New revision:picax.xml [14:37:38]<alex_joni> paul: around? [14:40:37]<alex_joni> guess not.. [14:40:39]<alex_joni> jepler? [14:43:28]<jepler> hi, I'm here [14:44:46]<alex_joni> * alex_joni is reading about AXIS [14:45:00]<jepler> uh oh, somebody found our website [14:45:05]<alex_joni> lol [14:45:07]<alex_joni> yeah ;) [14:45:15]<jepler> so what do you think? [14:45:16]<alex_joni> but I'm not gonna say anything :D [14:45:19]<jepler> oh good [14:45:30]<alex_joni> I think .. WTF is it hidden? [14:45:42]<alex_joni> it should be out there... [14:45:42]<alex_joni> :D [14:45:45]<alex_joni> it's GREAT [14:55:07]<alex_joni> hello ray [14:55:31]<rayh> Hi alex. [14:55:53]<rayh> I abandoned the SuSE after two crashes. [14:56:05]<alex_joni> have you been following the USB stuff? [14:56:26]<alex_joni> the USB-parport adapter discussion on the users list [14:56:28]<rayh> The second ate most of /etc and tossed 200+ fragments into lost+found. [14:56:40]<rayh> At a glance only. [14:57:04]<rayh> What are you thinking about USB? [14:57:08]<alex_joni> huh... never had a single crash with SuSE [14:57:20]<alex_joni> well.. I think USB is pretty useless for RT stuff [14:57:34]<alex_joni> but then I found this: http://www.low-cost-cnc.com/ll_cncarchitecture_big_cnc.html[14:57:48]<rayh> Yes. At least the way folk are thinking about it. [14:58:10]<paul_c> rayh: Will check on the missing dep. [14:58:48]<alex_joni> ray, paul: is there a need for a iso's-mirror? [14:59:16]<paul_c> Not yet - Still at the beta stage. [14:59:24]<alex_joni> I meant generally [14:59:37]<alex_joni> also for the BDI2.x and BDI-TNG & Live [15:00:01]<paul_c> TNG is unsupported and needs to be retired [15:01:52]<alex_joni> ok.. then let me know when the need is there (I got the bandwidth & the disk space covered) [15:02:38]<rayh> Sounds good to me. That way we have an (almost euro) mirror. [15:03:13]<rayh> When does ro expect to join? [15:03:22]<alex_joni> 2007+ [15:03:24]<alex_joni> I think [15:03:35]<paul_c> Looking at slimming Live down so that it will run on a minimal system without many of the desktop apps [15:04:01]<rayh> That's not so far off. [15:04:11]<alex_joni> * alex_joni left ... [15:08:35]<paul_c> Found the problem with the kernel not installing... [15:09:48]<rayh> Good. [15:11:13]<rayh> What was it missing? [15:11:44]<paul_c> It was a case of what wasn't missing.... [15:12:05]<paul_c> I had a whitespace in the XML tag [15:12:08]<rayh> Oh. That's much worse. [15:17:09]<paul_c> are you sure that missing dep was libneon and not libneon24 ? [15:38:25]<rayh> Might have been. It went by pretty fast. [15:39:38]<paul_c> hehehe.... Looking at the cia stats.... [15:39:48]<paul_c> Zathras is No. 1 [15:40:27]<paul_c> alex_joni is 2nd [17:33:51]<paul_c> * paul_c posts to emc-user commenting about the use of legacy units (the Inch). [17:40:32]<jepler> I found Tom Hubin's remarks a little bit offensive, since I'm sure patches that fix metric behavior would be addressed, and someone committed to working on metric would be accepted as a developer. [17:40:42]<jepler> (says the guy who's never committed anything to EMC yet) [17:41:34]<jepler> er, "patches .. would be incorporated" [17:44:19]<paul_c> Priorities - I do the BDI, other things are lower down the list. [17:45:26]<jepler> cradek: since you just looked at emctaskmain.cc, will you fix the interp_state-when-starting-by-step bug? [17:45:36]<cradek> jepler: urgh [17:45:39]<jepler> paul_c: and we thank you for doing BDI! [17:47:16]<cradek> so this is just a problem with the tcl backplot? [17:47:50]<paul_c> I think so. [17:49:16]<cradek> unsurprisingly, gplot and emcplot3d both get this right... [17:49:40]<cradek> g0x0y0 [17:49:40]<cradek> g1x1 [17:49:40]<cradek> g21 [17:49:40]<cradek> g1y25.4 [17:49:40]<cradek> g20 [17:49:43]<cradek> g1x0 [17:49:45]<cradek> y0 [17:49:56]<cradek> at least they display a square when I do this [17:50:19]<paul_c> try it with G20, then again with G21 [17:50:46]<cradek> you mean g20 before the first g1x1? [17:51:53]<paul_c> yes [17:52:35]<cradek> huh, mini draws a square too [17:52:41]<cradek> what am I missing here? [17:54:50]<cradek> I agree with his comments about G92 [17:55:13]<cradek> if you can't use fixed tool offsets, you're screwed [17:55:30]<paul_c> the image should be scaled by 25.4... [17:55:57]<cradek> I've never used the tcl backplot, so maybe I don't know how it works [17:56:03]<paul_c> Agreed the G92 needs looking at... [17:56:22]<paul_c> I have some files that claim to fix it, but [17:56:59]<cradek> I bet you *could* do it using run-from-line [17:57:04]<cradek> it sucks but you could do it [17:59:05]<paul_c> I have some modified files, but it is a bloody nightmare trying to pick out what changes have been made to the actual code [17:59:31]<cradek> lunch break [17:59:37]<paul_c> if/when I can sort out the mess, I'll try to commit some of it. [19:16:52]<rayh> cradek: If you are using a current mini gui, the g20 and g21 have been fixed in the plotter. [19:17:06]<cradek> rayh: ok, that explains why it worked for me [19:17:29]<rayh> I'm not certain how close the two squares will come to overlapping. [19:17:45]<cradek> I changed to metric for one corner, so there is only one square [19:17:52]<cradek> it looks fine [19:18:18]<cradek> do you know if Tom has a sherline? [19:18:31]<rayh> Okay. You could test it by making a 1 inch square followed by a 25.4 mm square. [19:18:36]<rayh> I believe so. [19:19:00]<rayh> I could rustle around and try to find my list of S customers. [19:19:06]<les> what's this g92 stuff again? [19:19:09]<cradek> nah, don't bother [19:19:19]<cradek> les: http://www.linuxcnc.org/dropbox/g92test1.pdf[19:19:32]<les> ray, you proved that it works proprly [19:20:40]<les> I use it a lot [19:21:12]<rayh> As long as you stay within the NIST parameters it's okay. [19:21:27]<les> the only thing that was problematic was the gui sometimes not displaying an offset [19:21:46]<les> so I just always start with a g92.1 [19:21:50]<les> no problems [19:21:54]<rayh> Yes. I found that it was a bit more than just the gui. [19:22:06]<les> oh I see [19:22:20]<rayh> So did one of my customers who drilled a hole in his work vice. [19:22:22]<les> message was not reported? [19:22:31]<les> nml [19:23:18]<rayh> Now I can't remember just where the issue was. [19:23:39]<les> oh well...just took delivery of over $2000 worth of prime cherry [19:23:57]<les> emc will turn 75% of it into sawdust. [19:24:03]<rayh> I feel a bit like the old beer commercial announcer. "I've been drinking xx ale for as long as I can remember -- which is about three days. [19:24:15]<les> haha [19:25:54]<les> well late lunch break for me...later...and I have a bad case of CRS as well! [19:33:12]<rayh> Looks like our bug and feature tracker has a bit of a issue with forwarding to the dev list. [19:34:22]<paul_c> yup - Thought I had fixed it... [19:37:02]<rayh> I'm trying to use supermount like live. Modprobe supermount. Anything else. [19:38:07]<paul_c> /cdrom /cdrom supermount auto,users,ro,fs=auto,dev=/dev/hdc 0 0 [19:38:14]<paul_c> (for fstab) [19:39:01]<paul_c> and add supermount to the lis in /etc/modules [19:39:18]<rayh> I've got /media/cdrom. [19:39:40]<paul_c> /cdrom /media/cdrom supermount auto,users,ro,fs=auto,dev=/dev/hdc 0 0 [19:39:57]<rayh> k [19:40:17]<paul_c> Hmmm... that doesn't look right... [19:40:41]<rayh> No /dev/cdrom [19:41:36]<paul_c> Is the drive hdb or hdc ? [19:41:49]<rayh> made a link scd0 ->cdrom [19:42:05]<rayh> or should i use hdc? [19:42:30]<rayh> burner it is. [19:43:37]<paul_c> Is ide-cd being loaded along with scsi-ide ? [19:44:21]<paul_c> cdrom /media/cdrom supermount auto,users,ro,fs=auto,dev=/dev/sr0 0 0 [19:44:45]<paul_c> or) cdrom /media/cdrom supermount auto,users,ro,fs=auto,dev=/dev/scd0 0 0 [19:46:13]<rayh> I don't see either ide-cd or scsi-ide but scd0 will work with a manual mount. [19:55:03]<paul_c> must have compiled them into the kernel then.. [19:55:32]<rayh> I'm not getting either floppy or cdrom with any of the lines. [19:56:16]<paul_c> supermount loaded ? [19:56:39]<rayh> yep. [19:57:14]<paul_c> 2.4.27 kernel ? [19:58:11]<paul_c> do a "mount -a" [19:59:48]<rayh> none already mounted or /dev/pts busy [20:00:13]<rayh> according to mtab, devpts is already mounted on /dev/pts [20:00:33]<rayh> fs type sysfs not supported by kernel [20:01:34]<paul_c> get the same warnings here... [20:02:06]<paul_c> mount should tell you if the CD is now accessable. [20:02:58]<rayh> I could mount before supermount but with the mount command. [20:05:14]<paul_c> does "mount /media/cdrom" throw any errors ? [20:07:16]<rayh> permission denied [20:07:32]<rayh> I'm root [20:07:40]<paul_c> running it as root ? [20:07:51]<rayh> yep [20:08:24]<paul_c> same error.. [20:08:44]<rayh> Ah. A reboot with fstab in place and supermount in the /etc/modules got it going. [20:08:59]<paul_c> a bit drastic [20:09:35]<rayh> Yes it was. [20:12:21]<rayh> I will not allow me to unmount manually now. [20:13:49]<paul_c> Once supermount is running, it looks after mounting/unmounting [20:14:27]<paul_c> although.... "umount /media/cdrom" should still work... [20:14:31]<rayh> Okay. If I remove the media and look then install media it works properly. [20:15:51]<rayh> The supermount works much better if there is a directory above the mount directory. [20:16:18]<rayh> When you hit that directory with the browser it looks at the cd or floppy. [20:16:29]<paul_c> Can you try something for me.... [20:16:52]<rayh> Go away;) [20:17:02]<paul_c> pop the BDI-3 cd in, and run (as root)... [20:17:14]<paul_c> apt-cdrom -d /media/cdrom [20:17:36]<paul_c> apt-cdrom -d /media/cdrom add [20:18:09]<rayh> need to mount it first? [20:18:32]<paul_c> nope [20:19:24]<rayh> Got the apt-cdrom help message. Want an add [20:19:46]<paul_c> try the second incantation. [20:20:02]<paul_c> * paul_c forgot the add [20:20:38]<rayh> Okay it did something/asking if I want to repeat for other cds [20:21:13]<paul_c> there isn't any more... [20:21:18]<asdfqwega> Afternoon,guys [20:21:43]<paul_c> Now try "apt-get install emc" [20:21:52]<asdfqwega> * asdfqwega just bumped 2 20Gig HD's off the desk and onto the (concrete) floor [20:22:04]<paul_c> It should ask for the CD [20:22:22]<rayh> emc is already the newest version [20:22:41]<learath> hope they didn't have anything important ont hem [20:22:42]<rayh> Darn. need to get a net going. [20:23:04]<paul_c> OK... now "apt-get install synaptic" [20:24:07]<rayh> not available, referred to by another package. [20:24:31]<rayh> package synaptic has no installation candidate.\ [20:24:53]<paul_c> Oh drat.. [20:26:41]<rayh> That cd access broke supermount. Had to mount /media/cdrom [20:26:50]<paul_c> better make sure I get that right on the next CD... [20:27:19]<paul_c> * paul_c wondered if apt-cdrom would unmount the CD [20:27:42]<rayh> Yes it did. [20:27:49]<rayh> Or said it did. [20:29:17]<paul_c> Need to try playing around with autofs and see if that causes any problems. [20:29:36]<rayh> Okay. How? [20:30:22]<paul_c> can I write a micro-HOWTO a bit later ? [20:30:26]<jepler> asdfqwega: ow [20:30:34]<jepler> asdfqwega: hope you don't care too much about whatever data was on them [20:30:54]<paul_c> (flog them on ebay) [20:30:54]<cradek> jepler: the first junk power supply I picked up said 12V/10A [20:31:02]<rayh> Certainly [20:31:04]<jepler> paul_c: is it possible to "apt-get" on bdi live rc46 without doing a hard-drive install? [20:31:08]<jepler> cradek: sold! [20:31:13]<cradek> jepler: no kidding [20:31:48]<paul_c> jepler: Yes, but it soaks up memory. [20:31:48]<asdfqwega> Who's needing power supplies? [20:31:51]<jepler> but my "cheapest CNC retrofit kit" just got a lot more expensive if I ship an AT power supply with it. [20:32:00]<rayh> I see there is a CVS directory with your info on it in the cdrom. [20:32:04]<jepler> paul_c: how? I get an error about free disk space on /var/apt/something [20:32:34]<paul_c> You need loads more memory then.. [20:32:47]<jepler> paul_c: It's a 1-gig RAM machine [20:32:51]<paul_c> rayh: I know about the CVS dir... [20:33:39]<asdfqwega> Need memory: Just steal a few sticks out of your (gran)kids hot-rod gaming box [20:34:50]<rayh> Can't you make a ramdisk on the hd and use that for rc46? [20:34:59]<paul_c> jepler: I suspect translucency might be causing problems - It is something that has come up on the Morphix list [20:36:16]<jepler> Yeah, I *think* that apt is just looking at "df" which says there are 0 blocks free on that partition [20:37:14]<jepler> I mounted an ext3 partition on the hard drive and told yum to use that for temporary files, but then I got some error about cross-device hard links (my bug reporting stinks, I didn't write anything down) [20:37:33]<rayh> ouch [20:39:00]<paul_c> You could try overlaying the hd on top of / with translucency. [20:39:27]<paul_c> (might get a bit messy in places...) [20:40:03]<jepler> can you tell me a little more or point me at a document about this? [20:40:19]<paul_c> gimme a sec... [20:40:55]<paul_c>http://sourceforge.net/projects/translucency[20:46:50]<paul_c> time to throw some food in the oven [20:47:45]<jepler> thanks for the link [22:12:20]<tbl> hio [22:14:41]<paul_c> Cooo... A Mike [22:24:05]<paul_c> so is tbl going to sit there all night lurking ?? [22:44:17]<tbl> sup paul [22:45:57]<paul_c> running another test install... [23:03:44]<robin_sz> are we having fun yet? [23:04:05]<paul_c> Yahoooo.... [23:12:03]<jepler> I'm having a great time [23:47:40]<asdfqwega> I'm having as much fun as a SM dentist