aelius wrote:Don't take this the wrong way, It's not snark just an honest curiosity. I have never understood the need for a limit to ship classes. Maybe its because I came up with Imperial Starfire, but if I want a new class then I design a new ship and put it in production. Especially considering how much of a pain it seems to be to make sure everything necessary is available at the right place on the charts for each empire.I could see it as an optional rule or for a campaign where the player is the admiralty instead of the emperor. But if the emperor wants a ship why shouldn't he get one?

Honestly, I think you are in some ways right. There's not always a good reason for pre-generated ship lists and they do take a lot of effort. The main reason they can be interesting is that they represent a chance to build theme and strategy in at a very early step. One power might have a ship list that emphasizes the Disruptor special ability while another might emphasize Stealth, for example, which would add a layer of strategic challenge to the game for the players.

However, I think a lot of people want more flexibility in ship design, especially given how hard tech advances are to get in VBAM in terms of time - it can feel less than thrilling if there's no ship to advance to that actually fulfills your strategic needs at the moment.

One option is to simply abstract the system we're talking about here. So, for example, the Empire has a current TL of 1 across the board, except for having a TL 2 for its Cruisers. It can use a "cheap" tech advance equal to 1x its total EP income to design a new TL 1 corvette, destroyer, battlecruiser, battleship, or any other unit. It can also use a "cheap" advance to design a TL 2 light cruiser or cruiser.

Or, it can use an "expensive" tech advance equal to 2x its system income to advance one unit group (escorts, capitals, supercapitals, orbital bases, fighters, ground) to TL 2. It may also use a MORE expensive tech advance with a cost equal to 3x its system income to advance its cruisers to TL 3.

This would make tech advances flexible (as you said, why should the space emperor have to settle for "the next ship on the list") but also meaningfully differentiated and valuable each time you get one.

aelius wrote:I have never understood the need for a limit to ship classes. Maybe its because I came up with Imperial Starfire, but if I want a new class then I design a new ship and put it in production. Especially considering how much of a pain it seems to be to make sure everything necessary is available at the right place on the charts for each empire.

After a lot of playtesting over the course of 2E, I came to the realization that because VBAM doesn't have the tech granularity of a game like Imperial Starfire where you're researching individual components you end up relying on your overall selection of units to define your empire's overall character. In other games you are committing resources to developing certain technologies that your opponent may not have yet, or may never be able to replicate. In VBAM, you have DV, AS, AF, etc. A finite number of stats that describe basic capabilities but doesn't concern itself with the types of weapons, components, etc. that your fleet is using.

We encountered a particularly telling scenario during the Glorious Stars playtest where, with freeform unit prototyping allowed, one player effectively replaced all of their ships with an entirely new force list. It would be like if you had a Federation player start with the Excelsior and then scrap it on Turn 1 to replace it with an all Battlestar/Viper fleet.

A fleet's doctrine as defined by its force list gives it character. Without that sense of "self", for lack of a better term, you end up with fairly cookie cutter fleets that are limited solely by the amount of economic points you have to prototype new units.

There are ways to design around this, but they don't end up giving the player particularly interesting decisions. If you are solely advancing our Tech Level to get a boost to future prototypes, then it becomes a bit soulless grind as you work to get that extra +2% point bonus every year. You'll eventually see gains, but it's not the same as unlocking a new unit each tech year.

I do agree, however, that if you ARE using a set of tactical rules where you can design your own ships and where research can net you minor upgrades, too, then freeform prototyping is not an issue at all. I had a lot of fun with Starmada Edition and prototyping new ships as I needed them. But there I had individual weapon techs to research to unlock new abilities, so even if two ships had identical VBAM stats they were still different in Starmada.

There is also something to be said for having a consistent, dependable tech tree for each faction in a 4x game. It provides a set point of reference for what the unit is and does for when players commiserate about their campaigns. It's a great shorthand for players, and a reason why total conversions for Star Trek/Wars and other properties are so popular. You mention that you ran into a Mergen Gorgship and you scratch your head and have no clue what that means. But you say that the USS Enterprise fought an Imperial Star Destroyer and players have enough context to fill in the gaps in the mental image and get a rough idea of what might be happening.

I have also found players that just hate to create their own ships, no matter how simple the construction system is

I see where your coming from with that. And it makes sense.Having said that, I love designing ships and always do for myself.I can't help it, if the option is there I have to do it myself. That's one of things I like about VBAM. It actively helps the gamer run the game the way they want instead of being stuffy about the specifics.That's how I came up with my fun mine laying fleet doctrine. Of course Galaxies seems like its going to trash that one (grumble something grumble)

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I'm enjoying thinking about the options presented by the new, more organized Galaxies system.

Here's what the Federation might look like in this system, where each player has six tech levels, and each tech level has one slot each for Escort (CT/DD), Cruiser (CL/CA), Capital (BC/BB), Superheavy (DN/SDN), Defense (Base/Mine), Flight (FL) and Troops.

There's certainly an opening for creative fleets and doctrines, as far as I can tell, though Starfleet doesn't exemplify that.