Interesting article. Shame it makes zero mention of beliefs. Shame also that it is a second-hand article that sensationalises a study that doesn't mention any effects of kindness, or belief. Nor does it look at any correlation between cause and effect - it assumes that you get rich, THEN you get greedy and mean, rather than considering the rather more obvious possibility that greedy and mean people get rich.

The second half is giving advice on how kindness will stop greed from making you mean - despite the fact that nowhere in the actual studies is this considered, or even mentioned. So it is presumably just a pop-up in the head of someone with a particular view that they choose to shoehorn in, regardless of what the evidence shows.....which sounds to ME like a "bad thing" about a "belief".

It's also interesting that neither the article, nor the studies, present ANY evidence to suggest that these "greedy people" are in any way unhappy or dissatisfied with their lives. Its an assumption made by the author of the piece, once again driven by his agenda.

Also, one other question. How far did you read? Did you just read the Forbes article? Did you read the abstract of the studies? Did you read the full text of the studies, or the supporting evidence?

Can we maybe agree that there are other problems in the world? I would really just like to get to a place where we can work together. Tell me what do we have to do, to do that?

Answer the questions posed of you.Present evidence, and not opinion.

Very simple, you'd think - but apparently not.

Presenting opinion - telling us your stories - is mildly interesting in a "chatting in the bus queue" kind of way, but its useless if you wish any of us to change our opinions. Saying "well, I believe...." a thousand times does not make the statement more convincing.

Which is true, Junebug? How would you go about determining which one is true?

I've put a lot of thought into this one Anf. I do, I really do understand your need for evidence. I did not mean any offence by coming here with my story. I thought maybe my story might help, with the truth being it might prove you wrong, I mean myself. I just wanted to be a part of the discussion. A little tiny cell in the knowledge pool of history.

I don't seem to have the evidence you're looking for so if you just want me to leave I will.

I don't believe you DO understand my "need for evidence". I'm not desperately seeking evidence of your little god, Junebug, any more than I am seeking evidence for John's Magic Socks. What I am interested in is whether the latest in the line of woo-talkers that has arrived on the site has anything to back up what they are saying, or if it is the latest in a long string of unsubstantiated pap.

Which is true, Junebug? How would you go about determining which one is true?

Is extremely important. And, as is usual for you, you have dodged answering it. If you respond to anything in this post Junebug, please respond to this - How would you go about determining which one is true?

Seriously. What would you do? How would you start? Because I've seen a lot of you being able to post links and stories about things that fit what you already believe, but NOTHING to show that you are able to critically look at a claim and decide whether it is or is not true. Your Junebug process seems to be "does this fit with what I believe, yes or no?", and the answer to that question is the ONLY thing that you consider when examining a claim.

Once more for emphasis - How would you go about determining which one is true?

Do we know how one comes to the decision that God wants them to do bad things. How does that happen? I have had no such revelation out of my belief, on the contrary it's my belief that tells me it's wrong.

Exactly. Your belief tells you it is wrong, their belief tells them it is right. You both claim "this is what god wants". You neither of you can show any evidence that what you are saying is what your god wants.

What motivated the dude that come up with the religion in the first place. I guarantee you it was fear or greed or both.

Again, any proof? Or is this another in your long list of "well, it isn't what I believe, so it must be wrong!"

Statement: Junebug's beliefs arose from her fear of abuse, fear of being insignificant, fear of being alone. Every experience of god she has had was a projection from her own mind, based on that fear. Her god's alleged dislike of greed likewise stems from Junebug's fear of the poverty she has experienced, the fear of the poverty her grandchild will experience....fear, fear, fear.

There you go Junebug. A statement about your beliefs, as supported and suportable as any statement you are making about people whose beliefs do not coincide with your own.

Just like you, "I guarantee you" that statement is true.

Can you prove that statement wrong? If not, how can you claim that your reversed statements are unarguably true?

Actually, I wouldn't say it's turning a blind eye to greed, I acknowledge the role it plays, but it isn't playing a role in every situation. You say you've provided an example in every scenario and yet, you've not fully addressed mine. You picked greed in 1 of 3 of my quotes and then tried to excuse why such greed existed in the bible. And since posting those quotes I have posted several more, where simply God is demanding people to murder. And in one where God even basically says, "do what I say or be cursed for it". Wouldn't fear be the motive for those who take those parts of the bible seriously rather than greed? It's about self preservation, not taking what you don't need. Of course, you're welcome to try and say God is the one being greedy and violently so, but that would require you to consider God to be the root of all evil, for me, he's fictional and a fictional character's greed simply does not count and I don't know the motives of those who wrote the bible.

That's something you've not addressed. A point I've made a few times at least, but the last time I posted it, I felt more back-up was due. It's actually enough motivation to start wars with non-believers. Is it not possible for somebody to do wrong because they truly believe they are doing right by God? Or that they will be damned if they don't?

You've also not considered the mentally ill, those with no apparent feelings of empathy or remorse, those without a concept of morality or those with a warped sense of morality. My uncle's got schizophrenia and he attacked my nan, I fail to see how he could have been motivated by greed, he's got a disorder that can make him angry and in that instance, violent. He sought nothing to gain from attacking her, only that it was an impulse driven by his mental state. Thankfully she wasn't hurt, however, schizophrenia, when left untreated or inadequately treated has left to people being killed as a result. And 'inadequately treated' does mean people have been too cheap to fork it out, it can be via neglect or simply not noticing the signs or properly dianosing somebody. The medicine is there for those who nee it. At least here in the UK, where we have the NHS, which is lacking in the resources to treat schizophrenia, and yet you still get news of a schizophrenic serial killer, whose mental instability has lead to the deaths of others after not being successfully treated.

Not trying to demonise schizophrenics, I love my uncle, he's a pretty decent guy. Always used to get Christmas present for me and my siblings growing up, even though he barely had any money and if it wasn't for his condition, he would never hurt a fly and normally the medication helps him with that. He's never actually hurt anyone.

That was my plea much earlier on. But in order to resolve the problem, I feel the problem needs to addressed, not in all circumstances is it greed. I would much prefer a world where religious and non-religious can stand by each other's side and feel an act is abhorrent and address the reason why, rather than have folks be defensive about it. I recognise there's some pretty screwed up atheists out there, Stalin was one of them, some of his motives were anti-theism. If we had somebody here who hates religion and they were to suddenly take it to the extreme, their motivation would be anti-theism and not greed. They simply hate theists and wish to eradicate them. They may feel angry about a preacher on the street and just lash out, thus killing him. I would rather address the issue as anti-theism and say, "well, hang on a minute guys, lets not preach ignorance towards theists, they're not all bad", if I were to go down the greed route, what exactly would I do to encourage people to not be motivated to act on their ignorance? Would I try to encourage them to be more generous to people? Not to take what they don't need? Doesn't really help with their anti-theism.

Seppuku,

I don't know that I totally agree with you here. Mental disease is a consequence of greed. Thousands of years of poverty stricken towns, states, countries I believe has a lot to do with mental illness. I bet if we go right now and check the stats 75% of mental illness is among the poor. The wealthy suffers mental illness because they can never satisfy their greed. They make enemies rather than friends.

I don't believe God ordered any murdering. That's why I don't worship or believe the Bible. Moses was the one, it was Moses. I believe God punished Moses for it by not letting him enter the promised land. Of course Moses lied and said it was because of the water in the desert. Do you really think he would do the right thing and tell the truth, he was human you know. Greed kept him from it. He would be remembered as a fool instead of the legend he is today. If there is any truth at all to the Moses story, 1 man's act of greed has cost billions of lives!!! Okay let's talk about the murder laws. Why oh why did Moses command stonings after he said God just told him not to kill? Well he was trying to control a mob and produce a "great nation" for Abraham. Couldn't just be a healthy nation, had to be a "great" nation. Two men can't make babies nor can two women, so if you're not going to make little Israelites we're going to stone you. Moses used fear to control his mob.

Why do people rape others, greed. People that take what they want are greedy people. Greed has no self discipline. Rape leads to mental illness, the raper is mentally ill, because of his uncontrollable greed. We're in deep Sep, we're in deep.

I have said here, and I'm going to make it bold so I know you see it this time, Fear is also one of our problems. The forefathers of Christianity/Islam/Judaism, were quite clever to use the fear tactic. They are all afraid to say the Bible is not the word of God. Even harder for the Jews because it names them God's chosen people. They are not going to want to give that up.

The problem is greed and fear. Not belief itself.

Thanks for accepting the olive branch. I don't want you to think I don't get your point as far as greed/fear being the sole provider in human suffering, but it is the biggest player, not belief.

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LOOK DEEP INTO NATURE AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING BETTER...ALBERT EINSTEIN

I'm sorry[1] but Junebug you have to be one of the most ignorant people...ever. I mean, are you parroting this nonsense or is these your own thoughts? Because I may have not finished high school[2] but damn if you're not the stupidest person I've come across in a long time.

Here's something for you to consider, junebug. Your religious beliefs are subjective - perfectly valid as far as you're concerned, largely meaningless for others (especially if they don't agree with you). What we're trying to do here is get you to understand that it doesn't do any good to expound on the virtues of something when you can't prove it even exists outside of your own mind. That's why everyone here keeps pressing you for evidence - because many are convinced that gods are imaginary, and most of the others are not willing to just accept your assertions about your god, when they see so many other people making equally fervent assertions, but that contradict what you say, or what each other say.

It gets back to the original point of the thread - how do you prove that believing in a god is not a bad thing when it actually is a bad thing so much of the time, such as with the Westboro Baptists, or people who pass laws banning gay marriage for religious reasons, or people who think they're supposed to stone children to death who are disobedient or even just sass their parents because they're commanded to by the Bible, or people who thought being left-handed was evil because of their religious beliefs, or people who sought to kill those who did not believe as they did and would not convert to believing in their god, or a myriad of other things.

I have said many times now that Greedy people take advantage of believers. They would find a way whether people believe we're created or not. I'm saying if mankind had never believed we would still have similar problems it would just be under a different cloak.

On the other hand you take greed away and I see a bright new beautiful society.

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LOOK DEEP INTO NATURE AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING BETTER...ALBERT EINSTEIN

I bet if we go right now and check the stats 75% of mental illness is among the poor.

True - though what a shame that (once again) you chose to make the assertion BEFORE checking to see if the facts matched your opinion. I would hardly be surprised though at the assertion that those facing socio-economic disadvantage are at increased likelihood of mental illness.

What's YOUR level of socio-economic status Junebug? Are you "poor"? I seem to recall that you said you were (though I could be mistaken). If that IS the case, would you therefore agree that you are at increased likelihood of developing mental illness than someone better off?

I'm sorry[1] but Junebug you have to be one of the most ignorant people...ever. I mean, are you parroting this nonsense or is these your own thoughts? Because I may have not finished high school[2] but damn if you're not the stupidest person I've come across in a long time.

I bet if we go right now and check the stats 75% of mental illness is among the poor.

True - though what a shame that (once again) you chose to make the assertion BEFORE checking to see if the facts matched your opinion. I would hardly be surprised though at the assertion that those facing socio-economic disadvantage are at increased likelihood of mental illness.

What's YOUR level of socio-economic status Junebug? Are you "poor"? I seem to recall that you said you were (though I could be mistaken). If that IS the case, would you therefore agree that you are at increased likelihood of developing mental illness than someone better off?

No not poor. Grew up that way, so I know what it's like, but I am not poor. If I were I would say yes, it puts me at higher risk.

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LOOK DEEP INTO NATURE AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING BETTER...ALBERT EINSTEIN

junebug, greed, fear, and other 'negative' impulses are survival traits. They exist because of evolution - an organism that doesn't have at least some greed may not get enough to eat, an organism that does not feel fear will probably be eaten by a predator that it wasn't afraid enough of to watch for. They're both things that any successful organism has to have in order to guarantee its survival.

Furthermore, it's impulses like these that led to beliefs in gods to begin with, since a belief doesn't occur for no reason. Because of fear, people attributed strange, unexplainable, fearful events to super-powerful beings that they imagined causing them (whether monsters, demons, devils, or gods). Because of greed, people sought to get the favor of these beings, or at least avoid the disfavor of them. If it worked, it was 'proof' that they had succeeded, and they would keep repeating it; if it failed, it was 'proof' that they needed to do more than that. And once they have the belief in something, they cling to it like someone adrift in the middle of the ocean would cling to a life preserver or even a piece of driftwood.

Belief comes from impulses, junebug, even today. That's how you explain the difference between 'good' beliefs and 'bad' beliefs. A greedy person will believe in a god who will help them fulfill their greed; a fearful person will believe in a god who will assuage their fear; a lonely person will believe in a god who is all about love; a hungry person will believe in a god who will help fulfill their needs. But they all come from the same source, impulses that want to be fulfilled.

You treat me with respect, I will show you the same. You treat me like shit, I will throw the entire pile on you.

Maybe that's something you should do not just display here on your profile. I have treated you respectfully on the other hand you have not, so according to your standards I should throw an entire pile of shit on you.

I think I'll stick to my God beliefs and do what's best for society here and turn the other cheek. Would you like to strike the other one?

Excuse the language, but holy fucking christ. Do you honestly think people suffer from mental illness due to greed? Not, say, social or economical factors, genetic predisposition, events deeply affecting the individual on a psychological level such as war? This, combined with you flipping out at the mention of psychological disorders is a huge red flag.

But hey, I'm probably talking shit. Just give more to charity and adopt a homeless puppy! Guaranteed to cure anything from depression to Huntington's!

Since I don't feel like being a complete ass, here is why people suffer from mental illness:

Psychoanalytic factors - unresolved conflicts and such

Psychological stress or trauma, substance abuse, neglect, abuse by other persons or one's community/social group

I don't see how that is relevant - it's a philosophical question, and I'm quite confident that you will not be satisfied with my response.

However, as far as I've been able to see in this thread, you still haven't addressed my last question to you from post 515, repeated in post 554. If you have done so, please direct me to the post in which you did.

Quote

Because I've spent 30 years on this journey and I have thoughts on the subject worth discussing. You don't have to go along to respect others thoughts.

There's a big difference between respect and knowledge. And you aren't engaging in a discussion, you are simply denying every single thing we have shown you to demonstrate that your blanket assertion that belief in god is not bad thing is wrong. Once you changed your focus to greed as the root problem, we've also demonstrated why that belief is wrong as well. Yet you persist in your baseless insistence that you are correct.

Quote

I'm not talking about the extremists either. I'm talking about someone like myself, that does good, that does not harm their society but Loves it. Perhaps together we can help eliminate the world of it's bad religions!

I don't give a hoot about religion, I give a hoot about behavior, about action, about positive end results. I don't give a hoot if people want to pray, as long as once done, the person praying gets off their knees and takes action as well. If prayer is not followed by action, it's worse than useless. All the warm fuzzies in the world don't amount to progress, that requires action. Action is only going to come from us - and belief in god often gets in the way. Deny it all you want to, you've been shown that you are wrong.

Look, not everyone is born to be an advocate. Not everyone needs to be one either. But it's certainly helpful if everyone is at least seeing the problems clearly, and you've been given ample evidence that this is not the case. You can ignore it if you choose, but don't expect to be given a pass because your beliefs make you feel better. God is no more effective than a milk jug, and perhaps less so - at least a milk jug has the practical use of holding milk, which is more than can be said of god.

Maybe that's something you should do not just display here on your profile. I have treated you respectfully on the other hand you have not, so according to your standards I should throw an entire pile of shit on you.

I think I'll stick to my God beliefs and do what's best for society here and turn the other cheek. Would you like to strike the other one?

So from what I've noticed on this board, Nam can be fairly vitriolic when he wants to be, so I don't necessarily think your response here is uncalled for (sorry Nam)......but I want to comment on 'respect'. Sorry junebug72, but I really haven't seen a whole lot of respect come from you in this thread. Oh I've seen a whole lot of niceness and pleasantry from you, but that alone doesn't entail respect. If you truly respected us, you'd engage us in the conversation rather than strictly dismissing our paths of inquiry. You repeated have taken undue offense to honest questions, repeatedly failed to address the content of a lot of the responses to you, and have thoroughly failed to demonstrate that you understand that you could be wrong <- not that you are wrong, but you do not seem amenable to the idea that you might be wrong. I'm just not seeing it; you're coming off as defensive, close-minded, and unwilling to examine your own beliefs. You play the 'persecuted dissenter' card far too readily. Your responses to questions are almost always peppered with some implicit expectation that everyone is trying to 'trick' you in some form or fashion, preventing you from simply addressing the topic of the question.

Perhaps it's unintentional; perhaps I'm incorrectly perceiving things; perhaps you're just overwhelmed (you're pretty much the target in this thread, so kudos to you for at least sorta trying to stick through it). But that's what I'm seeing. Try to look beyond feeling insulted; try to address to content at hand.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

On the other hand you take greed away and I see a bright new beautiful society.

But how does one "take greed away," Junebug? We can't just legislate it out of existence. I feel that it is inexorably bound to our humanity, as an unfortunate side effect of our instinct for self-preservation. Millions of generations of evolution have woven it into our bodies, giving us such things as hunger and thirst. I think the best we can do right now is to act conscientiously on an incident-by-incident basis and continue to improve our legal system and our culture to minimize harm and protect people adversely affected by others' rapaciousness.

Junebug, a lot of mental illness is caused by an imbalance in people's brain chemicals. An imbalance, btw that your god put there or at least allowed to happen. And it takes human beings using our own human resources to treat, cure or help people with these problems. Not magic or prayer or god.

(I am sure you will work greed in here somehow, but at least I tried.)

jb, read the story linked here before telling us again how wrong we are please. Read the whole story, and comment on the whole story. Do not pick one isolated thing in it and make an observation vaguely in reference to it that completely misses the point, actually read the whole thing and then tell us how this fits your stated position.

This is another supporting example for my previous question that you have not yet addressed.

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“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

I'm sorry[1] but Junebug you have to be one of the most ignorant people...ever. I mean, are you parroting this nonsense or is these your own thoughts? Because I may have not finished high school[2] but damn if you're not the stupidest person I've come across in a long time.