Danny Knobbler of CBS Sports is saying that the Indians have informed teams they'll accept offers for Masterson. I can understand Choo, but Masterson may be taking things too far. He's under team control for quite a bit longer. That would definitely signal a rebuild if it comes to fruition.

Bigfist wrote:Wow...Masterson too? I guess our window of opportunity is officially closed. I guess if Masterson is on the market, can Asdrubal be far behind?

Let's hope not. A retooling is one thing. This is something else. I think they would have to know this would be a full-scale PR nightmare and that they're just doing their due diligence in seeing what they could potentially acquire without actually committing to it. I mean, let's hope so, anyway.

Here's the article, for what it's worth. Hardly a done deal, and it sounds to me like more speculation than anything. Unfortunately, where there's smoke, there's often fire. Still, I'd be floored to see him go, especially by Tuesday.

On the other hand, if they would go the rebuild route, this actually may be the perfect time to do it from a PR standpoint. With the Olympics in full swing, the "casual" fan might not take much notice of players being dealt off until after the whole shin-dig is over.

Adverb Harry wrote:On the other hand, if they would go the rebuild route, this actually may be the perfect time to do it from a PR standpoint. With the Olympics in full swing, the "casual" fan might not take much notice of players being dealt off until after the whole shin-dig is over.

I'm not sure this team has casual fans anymore, and if so neither casual or hard core are going to take much notice. I think the notice has been taken for a few years now and definitely in the way of attendance.

Selling lower on Masterson than you would have at any other time. Not to mention he's a #3 on a good team.

Y'all can argue but he's not consistently out there giving you #1 or even #2 stuff. In fact, Masterson pretty much sums up this team as far as I'm concerned: you have no idea which effort is coming on any given night.

They tried to win with the corpse of Ubaldo and four or five #3-5 guys this year. The problem with 3-5 guys is exactly what you've seen from this staff this season. And it's way worse given Ubaldo's a damn #3/4 at this point as well.

At this point you may want to sell off anything not bolted down. Problem is that much of it's picked over and not worth the tag.

According to Rosenthal (whom I personally detest...there's something very creepy about the guy), the Indians are asking for a "good" major leaguer with less than three years service time for Choo.

Also, the Reds are interested, as well. I suppose if he HAS to be traded, it doesn't hurt to have two division rivals--Cincinnati and Pittsburgh--competing for him. May drive the price up and make it worthwhile for us.

a "good " major leaguer.....jesus christ. If that's all we are looking for, then keep him and try to win next year.

Also we have no pitching, so lets trade Masterson the only quality, affordable , pitcher that we do have. Im pretty sure you could come up with a deal to get one of his free agent seasons so he could stay through 2015. That next window of contention.

CleSportsTruth wrote:How long do we have Masterson for? If only this yr. or next, then trade him. If longer, keep him.

From Cot's Baseball Contracts (now folded into the Baseball Prospectus site): "1 year/$3.825M (2012) ~~ re-signed by Cleveland 1/17/12 (avoided arbitration)"Don't know if he has arbitration years left - someone else help out here?

I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.~~~Annie Savoy-"Bull Durham"

Choo makes sense, he's got Boras..etc...etc... No way in hell they could lock him up past next year. May as well get value. And Marte seems like a good player who is MLB ready.

Get rid of Lowe (if you can) and Perez (he could net a kings randsom) but Justin needs to stay. He's the most beloved guy as a teammate since Victor, and still an effective pitcher unless I post how well he's doing during the game.

Roster-building has been pretty much a cluster-fuck since John Hart left, and with Shappy and Antonetti in charge, there's no reason to believe it will improve, now or in 2014 or in 2020. Their record stands for itself.

You can talk all you want about trades, but the few "steals" any team can manage are always balanced out by bad deals. On average, trades on a team with little to no personnel capital are garbage-in, garbage-out, and that's the way it's been here.

A mid-size-market organization is built through the draft (to create that core personnel capital). Trades, schmades.

jerryroche wrote:Roster-building has been pretty much a cluster-fuck since John Hart left, and with Shappy and Antonetti in charge, there's no reason to believe it will improve, now or in 2014 or in 2020. Their record stands for itself.

You can talk all you want about trades, but the few "steals" any team can manage are always balanced out by bad deals. On average, trades on a team with little to no personnel capital are garbage-in, garbage-out, and that's the way it's been here.

A mid-size-market organization is built through the draft (to create that core personnel capital). Trades, schmades.

Are you really saying that over the long haul, we've given up more than we've gotten in trades since John Hart left? Is that actually what you're trying to say here?

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

I wonder if masterson really is available, y]if that brings the Red sox to the table. We know they have tried to reacquire him before. Their system appeals to me more than both Cincy's and Pittsburgh, because I dont think Cole, Taillon, Mesorcao, or hamilton are going anywhere.

Boston might be more willing to give up a top teir guy(s) and their secondary guys are way more more appealing.

I still think they need to regroup and try to make one last run next year. Or wait to really make deals in the offseason unless a team blows you away.

This is just my opinion but if ownership approves a fire sale, to me it means they are not committed to putting in any money(in free agency or trades) into really trying to add to this team to try to win.

In terms of implied odds, what are the chances that this current roster makes the playoffs next year? 5-10%? Maybe? If even that. They not only have to be buyers in free agency, but they probably have to acquire something this offseason in trade too.

That won't happen. The free agent market kind of sucks and some of the more attractive names have already signed with their current teams or been traded to teams they're likely to sign with.

Better off selling whatever has the most value. That would be Choo, Perez, and Masterson.

If you can net Marte, a top notch 1B/3B/LF prospect + SP prospect for Perez, and fill another 1B/3B/LF + SP hole with Masterson, it's worth your while.

The goal should be six Major Leaguers for those three pieces. Which would mean that they'd have to get all AA or AAA talent. No A-ball longshots, no matter how much upside. Can't take the chance at swinging and missing with another Jason Knapp.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

gotribe31 wrote:Are you really saying that over the long haul, we've given up more than we've gotten in trades since John Hart left? Is that actually what you're trying to say here?

I'm saying that, on average, trading is a zero-sum game. The Indians' front office has made some good trades and some bad. The Bartolo Colon trade was good. The CC Sabathia and Cliff Lee trades were bad. Most of the more minor trades have been slightly in the Tribe's favor (just look at the daily lineup), but the fact remains that you're still talking about a very, very average team, if that.

In other words, the roster's overall talent level has pretty much remained the same for the past 10 years. The team historically has had a .450 to .500 talent level, which is not good enough to win bupkus in 9 of 10 years. And the overall talent level won't improve until the drafts improve.

For what it's worth, Buster Olney is reporting that the Indians are saying it's unlikely they'll trade Choo because they'd need the perfect offer to make it happen.

Of course, they've said stuff like that in the past and turned right around six hours later and moved the guy anyway (Lee, Victor). Maybe just media posturing? They're not exactly known for tipping their hands to the media anyway about possible deals...could this be a ploy to get potential trade partners to up their offers?

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:I just read the same thing and laughed. So far the its been reported that the Rangers out out and a deal with any team is unlikely.

So if we have learned anything about "reports" about trade rumors , Choo will be going to Texas in the next hour.

Yeah, I mean, since when have they even said they would move a particular player for the right price? They are notoriously tight-lipped about their plans and don't like when anything leaks early. For them to be even mentioning Choo's price to a media outlet is kind of intriguing.

Definitely not saying anything is happening, just that this is an unusual route they're taking.

Let's face it, when Antonetti traded our two top pitching prospects for a Jimenez, he went all-in. Problem was, he went all-in on a pitcher whose numbers weren't trending well. Instead of the potential Cy Young candidate, we ended up with Fausto Carmona's identical twin. They were more enamored with his 'favorable contract' and ignored some warning signs that he wasn't going to be the pitcher he was two seasons ago, and instead of risking a third year on Josh Willingham, we signed Grady for another year of service on the DL.

It's not all Jimenez's fault. Masterson has been up and down, Tomlin has been horrible. In order for Cleveland to truly compete this year, they had to count of Pronk and Grady being healthy and productive, Masterson and Jimenez to pitch like aces and several other guys to have career years. None of it happened, and now we've got no true trading chips in the minors, save Lindor. To say we are beyond screwed is an understatement.

I don't even trust management to make good trades if they decided to sell. We are stuck being a .500 team at best as it stands right now.

Adverb Harry wrote:Yeah, I mean, since when have they even said they would move a particular player for the right price? They are notoriously tight-lipped about their plans and don't like when anything leaks early. For them to be even mentioning Choo's price to a media outlet is kind of intriguing.

Definitely not saying anything is happening, just that this is an unusual route they're taking.

Well, they'd be stupid not to. They know as well as we all do, and as well as every other team in baseball knows, that Choo's gone after next season. He's a Boras client. The guy at MLB Trade Rumors projects 7.8M for Choo next year in arbitration. He's trending way upward in FA money.

Jayson Werth got 7/126 for a .260/.355/.465/.820.

What will Choo get for a .291/.383/.474/.857?

The Indians have to see what they can get and continue to bring teams into the mix or release info about teams in the mix to drive up the price. To them, right or wrong, there is no losing scenario. They either trade him for maximum value or they keep him because they're convinced that they can contend in 2013. (I personally disagree, with the current roster, but their view is different)

I don't think a trade gets done, but, I'm hopeful that one does and that it makes us better in the future.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

So then this team needs to trade any competent player with less then 2 years until FA? Because he will cost too much to keep in FA and even his arbitration salary will be too high?

Then what logically follows is a team of talented, but unproven rookies as well as incompetent veterans.

Good luck 'contending' with that model. Its nonsense.

This isn't about rebuilding, its not about creating a window of contention in the future.

What this is really all about is maintaining the low-cost salary structure of the team. That is all. It has nothing to do with winning a World Series. Trade the guys that are getting expensive for guys that are inexpensive and can fill out an MLB roster.

To even listen to offers on Choo, Perez and Masterson, guys with more then 1 year of control left should tell you everything you need to know about the intentions of this front office.

If it was really about a rebuild, guess what, they're going to stink in 2013 too, you could trade Choo then. A trade in 2012 is about cost control. That's all.

Commodore Perry wrote:So then this team needs to trade any competent player with less then 2 years until FA? Because he will cost too much to keep in FA and even his arbitration salary will be too high?

Then what logically follows is a team of talented, but unproven rookies as well as incompetent veterans.

Good luck 'contending' with that model. Its nonsense.

This isn't about rebuilding, its not about creating a window of contention in the future.

What this is really all about is maintaining the low-cost salary structure of the team. That is all. It has nothing to do with winning a World Series. Trade the guys that are getting expensive for guys that are inexpensive and can fill out an MLB roster.

To even listen to offers on Choo, Perez and Masterson, guys with more then 1 year of control left should tell you everything you need to know about the intentions of this front office.

If it was really about a rebuild, guess what, they're going to stink in 2013 too, you could trade Choo then. A trade in 2012 is about cost control. That's all.

I disagree with nearly all of this post. The point in trading a player with 1.5 years left instead of a couple months is that he has more value and you should be able to get a bigger return. We've harped all season long about the number of holes on this team. Filling three is better than filling two and filling two is better than filling one. Trading a player with more contractual control should do that. At least, that's the idea behind it.

It has nothing to do with cost control because the Indians have very few costs next season. The payroll is practically empty. I wasn't pointing to Choo's projected arbitration for anything other than to say that his price in free agency is continuously going up and that's why we'd have no chance.

No, it isn't a great model. But, it worked in 2005 and 2007. They just couldn't seal the deal. It was supposed to work now. It didn't because of some decisions, some bad luck, and the two key trades of Sabathia and Lee not working out.

They're trying to maximize value. Closers have a lot of turnover. Is Chris Perez the next John Axford? Who knows. But the Indians don't want to take that chance and see his trade value evaporate.

If they fall flat on their faces next year, and have zero leverage with Choo, what kind of return can they actually get next July? A lot less of one than they can get this July. Teams know that they have to trade Choo next year and get what they can if they aren't in the hunt. They don't have to trade Choo next year, so teams have to come with a good enough offer to get him.

They should be putting these players out there and seeing what they can get. All it tells me is that they know that they're a longshot in 2013. Has nothing to do with finances.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

Along with Tripods' point, with the new CBA and its free-agent compensation rules, Choo's trade value will go WAY down if he's traded anytime after Opening Day next year. A team trading for him then won't get a compensation pick if he leaves via free agency after the season, which seriously undercuts the return on him.

I'd rather trade him when we're for sure out of the hunt this year than magically expect to contend with him next season, only to find out that it (surprise) isn't the case once again.

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:I wonder if masterson really is available, y]if that brings the Red sox to the table. We know they have tried to reacquire him before. Their system appeals to me more than both Cincy's and Pittsburgh, because I dont think Cole, Taillon, Mesorcao, or hamilton are going anywhere.

Boston might be more willing to give up a top teir guy(s) and their secondary guys are way more more appealing.

Seriously, WHO does Bahstun have to give up? None of their ML pitchers. Beckett stinks this year and has been trending downward over the last several seasons. Lester has gone all Ubaldo on them and just can't find his "stuff". Buchholz has a winning record this year (unlike the first two, who are 10-17 combined) but he's been up-and-down too. They messed Bard up so much he doesn't know if he's a starter, reliever, or which way is home plate. Their best pitcher is Felix Doubront. Who?

I don't follow the minor leagues so you might know of players that are almost ready for prime time. All I know is their current major leaguers have them playing around .500. Hmm, sounds like the Tribe, but with a much higher payroll...

I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.~~~Annie Savoy-"Bull Durham"

Seriously, WHO does Bahstun have to give up? None of their ML pitchers. Beckett stinks this year and has been trending downward over the last several seasons. Lester has gone all Ubaldo on them and just can't find his "stuff". Buchholz has a winning record this year (unlike the first two, who are 10-17 combined) but he's been up-and-down too. They messed Bard up so much he doesn't know if he's a starter, reliever, or which way is home plate. Their best pitcher is Felix Doubront. Who?

I don't follow the minor leagues so you might know of players that are almost ready for prime time. All I know is their current major leaguers have them playing around .500. Hmm, sounds like the Tribe, but with a much higher payroll...

They have quite a few interesting pieces. Some of them may still be unrealistic but are more realistic than some other names.

At least to me Mat Barnes, Ryan Lavarnaway, Anthony Raunado, Junichi Tazawa, Garin Cecchinni, Xander Boagarts, Brandon Jacobs, Jackie Bradley. These guys excite me more than the some of the other systems.

As a Gamecocks fan, watched a lot of Jackie Bradley Jr. during their CWS runs in 2010 & 2011. Kid has a ton of tools. Little bit of arrogance to his game as well. Smart hitter, hit in the middle of the order at USC, but seemed like he could hit just about anywhere. Pretty fast, good outfielder.

Not sure he projects well enough to be a centerpiece to a Masterson deal, but definitely a kid I wouldn't mind seeing in a deal.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

As a Gamecocks fan, watched a lot of Jackie Bradley Jr. during their CWS runs in 2010 & 2011. Kid has a ton of tools. Little bit of arrogance to his game as well. Smart hitter, hit in the middle of the order at USC, but seemed like he could hit just about anywhere. Pretty fast, good outfielder.

Not sure he projects well enough to be a centerpiece to a Masterson deal, but definitely a kid I wouldn't mind seeing in a deal.

Arrogance? We can't have that here!

Seriously, he is an intriguing piece. I've thought he has the potential to be a good player, too. Certainly not a centerpiece, as you said, but I wouldn't object to picking him up in the right deal. Problem is, I don't know what else they would include that we'd be willing to bite on.

As a Gamecocks fan, watched a lot of Jackie Bradley Jr. during their CWS runs in 2010 & 2011. Kid has a ton of tools. Little bit of arrogance to his game as well. Smart hitter, hit in the middle of the order at USC, but seemed like he could hit just about anywhere. Pretty fast, good outfielder.

Not sure he projects well enough to be a centerpiece to a Masterson deal, but definitely a kid I wouldn't mind seeing in a deal.

oh yeah, I wouldnt accept him as a centerpiece. Hypothetically for me a deal would have to start with Matt Barnes followed by a combo of 1 or 2 of the other guys and maybe a lower a high upside bullpen arm.

Proclaiming and organization the best run of three of the shittiest organizations in the entire sports spectrum is far from best in the universe.

....and a one-eyed jack in the land of the blind is a visionary right?

In terms of attendance, W/L record and playoff appearances over the Dolan's tenure the Indians are absolutely worse than the Cavs (and that isn't saying a ton). The Browns over that time are in a league of their own in terms of miserable failure but at least they now seem to be trending up. Certainly can't say that about the Indians.

Dolan bought a team with the highest attendance in the league a high payroll, and a real ML roster (pretty bare minor league system though). Him and his appointed leaders have run it so far into the ground no one cares about the team and they have the worst attendance in the leauge, another losing record, a major league roster full of holes and a shitty minor league system. It's a fuckiing sad joke and a disaster. To imply otherwise it either disingenous, stupid or just trolling to fuck with the same people that piss you off on the Cavs board.

This organization had such a massive headstart over the other pro sports teams in Cleveland when the Dolan't bought it that it shouldn't even be a discussion point now. At the time the Dolans bought the Indians the Browns were an expansion team and the Cavs were on life support.

The Indians were essentiallly up 42-0 against a couple of criples and after 3 consecutive funbles, 2 interceptions, 10 false start penalties, 2 illegal substitutions, one TT draft, one ESPN Souft Beach decision, one Mangini, 1 Phil Savage and lots of ShapTanetti bullshit they are in a dead heat and clear favorites to lead Cleveland sports in the suck department going forward.

There is no doubt in my mind that a drunken collection of you, MotherScratcher, Pros, Dennis Kucinich, Peeeker, Ted Stepien's dead corpse and Delonte West could do a better job of managing the indians than Antonetti, Shap and Dolan. That's not even a fucking joke either as long as Kucinich doesn't have much say in the decisions.

YahooFanChicago wrote:There is no doubt in my mind that a drunken collection of you, MotherScratcher, Pros, Dennis Kucinich, Peeeker, Ted Stepien's dead corpse and Delonte West could do a better job of managing the indians than Antonetti, Shap and Dolan. That's not even a fucking joke either as long as Kucinich doesn't have much say in the decisions.

I couldn't work with those three assholes.

And I probably wouldn't be able to work with Delonte, Kucinich or Dead Stepien either.

A legit question...in all seriousness, at what point do Shapiro and Antonetti start worrying about job security? During their regime, we've been through two full (and maybe on the cusp of a third) rebuilds...I can't think of many front offices that have stayed intact during that entire span (San Francisco, Colorado, maybe?) and certainly not through so many failed attempts at contention. Seriously, most GMs get one chance to build a winner, sometimes two if they're well-regarded, before they're shown the door.

I'm not privy to the inner workings of the Tribe's relationships (shocking, I know), but the Dolans have historically given Shapiro and company a great deal of room and a pressure-free environment in which to work and generally seem to hold them in high regard, but at some point, regardless of what they really think of the work the front office has done, don't they have to start considering relieving them of their duties, if for nothing else than PR's sake? I mean, they're facing a rapidly shrinking fan base that's beyond apathetic, and they've shown no signs of selling. If they're serious about keeping the team, don't they have to consider a change, just to placate what's left of the fans? Right or wrong (I say most definitely right), they finally canned Wedgie, and you know deep down they hated doing it (I think Shapiro sobbed himself to sleep that night and for many after over it), but I think they did it just to shut the fans up and hope to God they'd stop bitching. They didn't really WANT to or think it was really necessary, but they did. Which is why I wonder if the Dolans will start thinking the same way about Shapiro and his boy wonder.

So, do they have something to worry about? It's not a rhetorical question and I'm not trying to be a smart-ass...I'm curious what the opinion is.

Good question Harry, I guess we will find out the answer to that one later.

My guess is that the Dolan's don't make any FO changes yet. It seems like somewhat of a mutual preservation arrangement between ownership and the Front Office. ShapAnneti do the bidding of the Dolan's working with very limited payroll in order to generate positive profit and cash flow (at least as per Forbes) without bitching about it and in return the Dolan's give them a long leash and high job security.

Both sides go merrily on their way pocketing some decent coin and accurately pointing out that baseball has an un-even playing field. It was probably cozy and comfortable for them for awhile but it is not tennable long term as they continue to become increasingly reliant on revenue sharing as attendance continues to decline, even TV viewership is now declining for the tribe and league-wide payroll costs continue to escalate.

Eventually something has to give but I don't feel that it has reached that level yet and ownership will continue to try and maintain the status quo as long as cash flow is positive. I bet when it does change it will be very sudden similar to the Lerner/Browns events recently.

i think 5 years ago Shapiro was considered somewhat of a Wiz and a high potential young baseball Exec.. I am not so sure that image still exists. I am sure some other owner would give him a pass and another shot due to the payroll constraints that he faces here. That said, his performance after the initial great Bartolo trade has not been too good.