Perhaps the delicate genius Shero could have had some foresight and not let it come to the FA market in the first place? Then he doubled down losing a decent draft pick before overspending on the M&M connection.

Exactly! It is a good GM's job to understand and reward a players worth before the entire league also realizes that players worth. Shero has screwed that up a few times for sure.

That is complete and 100% hindsight. Scuderi was NEVER anything special until that Cup run.

Yea, Scuds made his bank in the 09 finals. I think people are looking at Scuds with a ton of hindsight that really isn't fair to Shero. I get the feeling that people think that M&M were signed purely to REPLACE Scuds rather than the fact that Leopold and Mckee sucked and couldn't hang in the system.

That being said, I have zero confidence that Scuds could have replicated this run considering the style he played in was completely different than this one.

Malkamaniac wrote:Yea, Scuds made his bank in the 09 finals. I think people are looking at Scuds with a ton of hindsight that really isn't fair to Shero. I get the feeling that people think that M&M were signed purely to REPLACE Scuds rather than the fact that Leopold and Mckee sucked and couldn't hang in the system.

That being said, I have zero confidence that Scuds could have replicated this run considering the style he played in was completely different than this one.

scuds was solid the whole season in 09. even more solid than he was in 08. so the data was there that he was a good contributor. going 5 years, 2 million per wouldn't have been crazy for either party sometime during the 09 season. but at the time, it was no secret that shero didn't want to engage in long term contracts, so that was probably how he ended up unsigned going into free agency. this is all hindsight of course. i'm sure i never brought this up locking scuds up in january of 09, so it's no travesty that things played out as they did.

but i call hijinks on the notion that scuds wouldn't do well here. all this "system" stuff has gotten out of hand.

Malkamaniac wrote:Yea, Scuds made his bank in the 09 finals. I think people are looking at Scuds with a ton of hindsight that really isn't fair to Shero. I get the feeling that people think that M&M were signed purely to REPLACE Scuds rather than the fact that Leopold and Mckee sucked and couldn't hang in the system.

That being said, I have zero confidence that Scuds could have replicated this run considering the style he played in was completely different than this one.

scuds was solid the whole season in 09. even more solid than he was in 08. so the data was there that he was a good contributor. going 5 years, 2 million per wouldn't have been crazy for either party sometime during the 09 season. but at the time, it was no secret that shero didn't want to engage in long term contracts, so that was probably how he ended up unsigned going into free agency. this is all hindsight of course. i'm sure i never brought this up locking scuds up in january of 09, so it's no travesty that things played out as they did.

but i call hijinks on the notion that scuds wouldn't do well here. all this "system" stuff has gotten out of hand.

Scuds did fine sure, but let's not act like people care up until he played goalie in the SCF. Also, the system chewed up and spit out Martin and Michalek, both by and large better than Scuds. I wouldn't say it's getting out of hand, but there's a pretty accurate result line the past two years.

In regards to Scuds the original consensus among management is that they could have made the deal for 2 million, but when the Kings made the original offer, they couldn't match it and had to let him walk.

Malkamaniac wrote:Scuds did fine sure, but let's not act like people care up until he played goalie in the SCF. Also, the system chewed up and spit out Martin and Michalek, both by and large better than Scuds. I wouldn't say it's getting out of hand, but there's a pretty accurate result line the past two years.

look to the carolina game early in the season - martin's masterpiece - to see why the system had nothing to do with his struggles. getting out muscled by jeff skinner, and handing the puck over to the opposition with unprecedented ease...those weren't system problems, and those were representative of why he was such a butt.

once sid came back, we certainly saw "system" problems. but that style of play hasn't been the norm under bylsma - especially over the last 2 years.

Malkamaniac wrote:Scuds did fine sure, but let's not act like people care up until he played goalie in the SCF. Also, the system chewed up and spit out Martin and Michalek, both by and large better than Scuds. I wouldn't say it's getting out of hand, but there's a pretty accurate result line the past two years.

look to the carolina game early in the season - martin's masterpiece - to see why the system had nothing to do with his struggles. getting out muscled by jeff skinner, and handing the puck over to the opposition with unprecedented ease...those weren't system problems, and those were representative of why he was such a butt.

once sid came back, we certainly saw "system" problems. but that style of play hasn't been the norm under bylsma - especially over the last 2 years.

We'll agree to disagree. You don't have quality years to all of a sudden look totally inept. Something was changed to make him feel totally uncomfortable with playing this style of hockey.

What changed is that he signed a relatively huge UFA contract. History is littered with cases of players who flame out after signing a big contract. Usually, it's because they feel like they've "made it". In Martin's case, I get the feeling that he doesn't feel like he's worth the highest salary among Pen's defense. Either way, he plays like a wimp. What this team needs are warriors.

Hypothetical QOTW for Martin haters to chew on: Would LAK or NJD be where they are if Martin had signed with them instead?

Perhaps the delicate genius Shero could have had some foresight and not let it come to the FA market in the first place? Then he doubled down losing a decent draft pick before overspending on the M&M connection.

Exactly! It is a good GM's job to understand and reward a players worth before the entire league also realizes that players worth. Shero has screwed that up a few times for sure.

That is complete and 100% hindsight. Scuderi was NEVER anything special until that Cup run.

If anyone was watching closely, Rob Scuderi was improving his defensive game little by little - especially under Therrien. It's true that he was a whipping boy on this board at one time, but by 2009 he had nearly perfected his skills. I, for one, was literally ill when they didn't resign him . . . just like I was literally ill when there was talk of trading Jordan Staal (which I now think will NOT happen). And, no, I don't get that "ill" feeling a lot . . . watching Pens hockey for nearly 30 years, these are the only two times I was that upset. Okay, three times . . . I was really upset when Marty Straka broke his leg, but that wasn't a signing issue. Ray Shero is not a genius in my eyes.

I'm a big Scuderi fan and will always be a fan of his...that said, this is the cap era, you can't keep everyone...There was no way the Pens were going to match or come close to matching the LA offer.

In fact, I think Shero's final offer was in the $2mill per range and Scuderi wanted to stay but LA gave him the old offer he couldn't refuse. It happens...move on...Michalek was supposed to replace Scuds!

Malkamaniac wrote:Yea, Scuds made his bank in the 09 finals. I think people are looking at Scuds with a ton of hindsight that really isn't fair to Shero. I get the feeling that people think that M&M were signed purely to REPLACE Scuds rather than the fact that Leopold and Mckee sucked and couldn't hang in the system.

That being said, I have zero confidence that Scuds could have replicated this run considering the style he played in was completely different than this one.

Probably 90 to 95% of the people on this board were estatic when Shero signed Martin and Michalek. Now two seasons later, close to the same percentage views them as the second coming of Joe Melichar and Hans Jonsson . Future UFA's should avoid the Pens at all cost, or they will suffer the same fate as the M&M boys.

I see it like this: GMRS and HCDB outthunk themselves with the need to have these fast forwards and puck moving d-men to fit the system.

What I have noticed is that with Geno, Sid, Staal, Letang and now even Neal filling a specific role, they need more stay at home guys, grit forwards, and 3rd line type guys throughout the lineup and even on their 3rd/4th lines. The aggressive style/enough skill to score needs balanced out.

In the 2 cup final runs we had 4 d-men playing a stay at home style, Gonchar who actually ate up a lot of good minutes on d and Letang the 2nd year. We had guys like Talbot and Fedetenko, Kunitz (who only scored 1 goal but played a role we needed), on the top lines, our 3rd line/Adams played important grit roles.

I know we might not have been able to sign Scuderi and/or Gill but I think the system as it is, with the high end skill we have actually calls for the opposite of what we went out to get in FA. We got smaller/softer. We needed bigger and tougher in those spots to balance out what our top guys can do.

Scuds is three years older than Martin, and has had a worse plus minus than Martin for years running. He's also been gone three years. Fans need to get over romanticising former players, or you become the Pirates.....see Nate Mcclouth.

Defence21 wrote:Alternative point of view. Scuderi is succeeding in the defense-orientated Kings system -- similar to the way Martin succeeded in the defense-oriented Devils system and they way Michalek succeeded in the defense-oriented Coyotes system. I wonder how many here would be berating Shero for retaining Scuderi at that price if he was playing in Bylsma's offense-oriented system that doesn't favor immobile, one-dimensional defenders? Think the results would be the same as they are with Martin and Michalek?

It's real easy to see the green grass. It's not quite as easy to look at things in perspective.

Bingo. This is what i've been saying for a while. Z and Pmart struggle with the system. Scuds would as well. In 09 scuds was playing MT's system with a DB forecheck.

Michalek and him took the Pens from the lower 3rd of the league in goals against per game to number 6. But yeah that doesn't matter and they had nothing to do with that turn around.

That was more to an AHL coach being successful with AHL players in playing tight team defense. When you need to open the ice up and play outside a total shut down he blows.

So he just proved your entire point wrong and it's now not on Martin, it's everyone else doing a good job?

He didn't prove anything. Martin can look good in a system that is constrictive like it was in NJ. He was horrible before he got hurt to start the year in 2010 and when he came back half the team was on the IR and Bylsma tightened everything down which made everyone look better defensively.

Players like that are worthless when you open the game up because they make bad decisions near the other teams blue line and when they are backing into their own zone. Martin consistantly made horrible pinches and let guys come in and shoot on Fleury. When you have three guys backchecking and hardly ever scoring in front of you even Nate Guenin can look good.

Honestly the reality of the case wasn't that the team went into "lockdown" either. MAF shut the door for the past two seasons for the most part and in large part because he was comfortable with the defense in front of him.

Martin was apart of that defense. I think a lot of people really don't give the guy the credit he deserves and it's to the point of absurdity.

Malkamaniac wrote:Honestly the reality of the case wasn't that the team went into "lockdown" either. MAF shut the door for the past two seasons for the most part and in large part because he was comfortable with the defense in front of him.

Martin was apart of that defense. I think a lot of people really don't give the guy the credit he deserves and it's to the point of absurdity.

he was fine in 10/11. not 5 mill fine, but still fine none the less. he was also fine for a long stretch this season.