I am also not comforted by his death. As someone who saw the second plane hit the WTC in person and who's father worked there (on vacation that day, thank god) I really thought I'd be happier about it. I mean, I'm definitely not sad he's dead and I am kind of glad it happened but at what cost? On the one hand I like the idea of the US saying if you eff with us we will hunt you down no matter how long it takes and no matter the cost but on the other hand I just wish it would all stop and we could go back to the ignorance is bliss attitude we all had prior to 9/11. Cat is out of the bag though.

30:1(accurate estimates are probably MUCH higher) them versus us is not justice. That's just wanton violence and bloodlust. This is another problem I have with all this "celebration." The fact of the matter is that they didn't strike first.

We were never ignorant. Even during Gulf War 1, we all knew what was going on. I was just a kid in the 5th grade and we were all cynical about the war being about oil. It's not ignorance, but indifference. We just didn't give a because they were doing the killing over there, and not here. 15 years later, we get a swift kick in the balls because of our tacit approval of what's happening over there.

We might not see another 9/11-like attack in the US within the next ten years, but it wouldn't surprise me if it happened again. Those orphans we made over there grow up eventually...and some will be radicalized. It also wouldn't surprise me if we had the same fucking reaction as this last time.

I've been stewing on this overnight and I am no more comforted by the death of Bin Laden this morning than last night. In the light of the celebrations, it's even more painfully obvious that hardly anyone has learned the lesson of what happened on 9/11. Not only has the US gotten involved in 2 wars because of it, but countless innocent civilians in the Middle East have also paid the price for our imperialism. Everyone talks about bringing Bin Laden to justice and that he was responsible for the thousands of innocent deaths, but what about the hundreds of thousands that we killed after that as well as the tens of thousands we killed before it? Or what about those despots that we put in power or the way we divided up their land? But no, we only care that some guy organized 20 people to fly planes into buildings and not the fact that we trained him to do it in the first place.

This is not the time for celebration; this is the time for introspection...and we're way past due.

The smartest thing I have seen said about his death all day.

You both sound dumb right now, I guess that means your arguments have no weight in the slightest right? Do you even know what bin laden has done in his lifetime? All you seem to know him for is 9/11. "he is just some guy who organized a few people to fly planes into buildings, he was really no big deal amiright?" Magus, the fact that you think it is the smartest thing said all day says a lot about you.

We did not kill 100,000s of thousands of civilians. If you want to clarify that us being there forced the civilians to start killing each other, I might let you slide. But DO NOT paraphrase a point that must be spelled out. This is why people are going around saying US forces are killing 100,000s of thousands of civilians. It is simply in no way true. Could we have stopped civilians from killing each other we would have. Better to leave the tyrants to their own killing though right?

It really irritates me that a person that has ordered the murder of so many people gets a break from you because he supposedly killed less people than someone else.

#63
Clak
Made of star stuff.
CAGiversary! 8079 Posts Joined 9.9 Years Ago

I don't know what it is about military personnel. If it's because of the training, if it's because they just like feeling like they won, but so many seem to hail this as some great victory for the country. It's a totally utilitarian point of view (something you all probably know of by now I hate). In this case, did the ends justify the means at all? So we got Bin Laden, look what it's cost not just us, but the people of Afghanistan too. Was this really worth it? Just to send a message to everyone that we'll hunt you to the ends of the earth for however long it takes? Isn't there a point where just have to take a step back and say "this isn't worth it any more"? I mean it's not like we weren't trying, even if we'd never got him, I think it would have shown that we wouldn't just sit back and let someone attack us. Even after all of this, all of the bombings that have killed countless civilians, it was a single bullet to the head that killed him.

Why are you all narrowing down the war to be about this one man? Yes he was the head, and there should be celebration that a man who has committed such atrocities is dead. Are you trying to claim the war in afghanistan was all because of some massive hunt to find him?

#65
Clak
Made of star stuff.
CAGiversary! 8079 Posts Joined 9.9 Years Ago

It was a large part of it, yes. Might want to watch the bit about " and there should be celebration that a man who has committed such atrocities is dead", because atrocities are in the eye of the beholder. I can guarantee you that somewhere in Afghanistan there is someone who feels what we did to him/her in the process of this war was an atrocity and that Bush should be killed for it. I don't expect you to agree, I simply expect you to understand that what I'm saying about atrocity is true.

It was a large part of it, yes. Might want to watch the bit about " and there should be celebration that a man who has committed such atrocities is dead", because atrocities are in the eye of the beholder. I can guarantee you that somewhere in Afghanistan there is someone who feels what we did to him/her in the process of this war was an atrocity and that Bush should be killed for it. I don't expect you to agree, I simply expect you to understand that what I'm saying about atrocity is true.

I bet you there are more people in afghanistan that are celebrating his death as well. He not only killed Americans, but he killed Afghans, and Muslims as well. Go and research what he has done for gods sake.

I am sick and tired of this "the other side is just as much a victim, freedom fighter is the same as terrorist" bull shit. osama bin laden is not a freedom fighter, he fought to oppress his own people, and terrorize countless others, including us.

I sincerely hope you aren't attempting some form of comment on racism from that. You all means - all of you who are commenting. However it would be just like you to gleam something of that sort from such ordinary words.

#69
Clak
Made of star stuff.
CAGiversary! 8079 Posts Joined 9.9 Years Ago

I bet you there are more people in afghanistan that are celebrating his death as well. He not only killed Americans, but he killed Afghans, and Muslims as well. Go and research what he has done for gods sake.

I am sick and tired of this "the other side is just as much a victim, freedom fighter is the same as terrorist" bull shit. osama bin laden is not a freedom fighter, he fought to oppress his own people, and terrorize countless others, including us.

I'm not saying he didn't, but killing innocents in pursuit of a criminal is not justifiable, and I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking we're evil because some bombs we dropped killed their family. I mean for crying out loud, think about it. Planes flown into buildings, people die, people hate Bin Laden. Bombs fall on houses, people die, they're supposed to thank us for it?

If you have the ability to, I highly suggest listening to Rush right now to hear the dumb shit trip over his slippers trying to deny President Obama any credit and turning him into a villian for continuin Bush's policies.

I think the celebrations are kind of gross, but at the same time I don't feel personally effected by global terrorism. Maybe some of those in NYC have a different opinion?

Now I'm a bit confused, reports last night were that this all went down last week. Now it seems like it all happened about an hour before the announcement of the announcement that something was going to be announced. If that's the case, wouldn't it have happened around noon local time in Pakistan?

You both sound dumb right now, I guess that means your arguments have no weight in the slightest right? Do you even know what bin laden has done in his lifetime? All you seem to know him for is 9/11. "he is just some guy who organized a few people to fly planes into buildings, he was really no big deal amiright?" Magus, the fact that you think it is the smartest thing said all day says a lot about you.

We did not kill 100,000s of thousands of civilians. If you want to clarify that us being there forced the civilians to start killing each other, I might let you slide. But DO NOT paraphrase a point that must be spelled out. This is why people are going around saying US forces are killing 100,000s of thousands of civilians. It is simply in no way true. Could we have stopped civilians from killing each other we would have. Better to leave the tyrants to their own killing though right?

It really irritates me that a person that has ordered the murder of so many people gets a break from you because he supposedly killed less people than someone else.

No one's giving him a break and if you think this is an intellectual exercise of equivalents, you're a lot dumber than I gave you credit for. The fact of the matter is that killing Bin Laden doesn't change the fact that his death is NOT a deterrance and neither does starting a war in Iraq or Afghanistan. If anything, these actions create the things we're fighting against. I'm not saying that we should just allow people to blow other people up, but that maybe we shouldn't be so damned eager to blow people up as well. And maybe we shouldn't have supported them in the first place to fight the Cold War or maybe we shouldn't have escalated the Cold War and on and on and on...

To quote Billy Joel: "We didn't start the fire" But we sure as hell don't need to make it bigger.

And knoell, maybe you and your fuckhead ilk on the right should've said something instead of serving up freedom fries when this shit was going down with Iraq. But no...it was more important for the military industrial complex to make billions while killing millions. all y'all.

I'm not saying he didn't, but killing innocents in pursuit of a criminal is not justifiable, and I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking we're evil because some bombs we dropped killed their family. I mean for crying out loud, think about it. Planes flown into buildings, people die, people hate Bin Laden. Bombs fall on houses, people die, they're supposed to thank us for it?

So what is your idea for a zero casuality clean out of al qaeda and the taliban? The removal of both organizations vastly benefits the security of the US, and primarilly the afghan people.

No one's giving him a break and if you think this is an intellectual exercise of equivalents, you're a lot dumber than I gave you credit for. The fact of the matter is that killing Bin Laden doesn't change the fact that his death is NOT a deterrance and neither does starting a war in Iraq or Afghanistan. If anything, these actions create the things we're fighting against. I'm not saying that we should just allow people to blow other people up, but that maybe we shouldn't be so damned eager to blow people up as well. And maybe we shouldn't have supported them in the first place to fight the Cold War or maybe we shouldn't have escalated the Cold War and on and on and on...

To quote Billy Joel: "We didn't start the fire" But we sure as hell don't need to make it bigger.

And knoell, maybe you and your fuckhead ilk on the right should've said something instead of serving up freedom fries when this shit was going down with Iraq. But no...it was more important for the military industrial complex to make billions while killing millions. all y'all.

When has the US killed millions again? Keep it up with your ridiculous "we are just as bad as the terrorists" gimmick. It is entertaining at least.

Last year the most deadly year in Afghanistan for civilians was 2,777 deaths. 75% of which was caused by the taliban. 695 deaths caused by afghan government forces which I am assuming includes us is still a terrible amount of deaths however even if you multiply the deadliest year by 10 years you will have 27,770 civilian deaths caused by ANYONE, which falls WELL short of the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of civilians you claim our own forces are killing.

Last year the most deadly year in Afghanistan for civilians was 2,777 deaths. 75% of which was caused by the taliban. 695 deaths caused by afghan government forces which I am assuming includes us is still a terrible amount of deaths however even if you multiply the deadliest year by 10 years you will have 27,770 civilian deaths caused by ANYONE, which falls WELL short of the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of civilians you claim our own forces are killing.

We're not as bad as "terrorists." We're worse.

Afghanistan isn't the only place where we've expanded the empire, but thanks for playing.

Afghanistan isn't the only place where we've expanded the empire, but thanks for playing.

No, thank you for playing. Well failing at playing I should say, since you refuse to back up your statement that the US is murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Everyone talks about bringing Bin Laden to justice and that he was responsible for the thousands of innocent deaths, but what about the hundreds of thousands that we killed after that as well as the tens of thousands we killed before it?

I think I may use it as my new sig. I mean Magus thinks it is the smartest thing anyones said all day so it must be indictive of the entire lefts ideology right? It is just so ironic that he was just complaining about associating with people who do not know what they are talking about.

No, thank you for playing. Well failing at playing I should say, since you refuse to back up your statement that the US is murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians.

I think I may use it as my new sig. I mean Magus thinks it is the smartest thing anyones said all day so it must be indictive of the entire lefts ideology right? It is just so ironic that he was just complaining about associating with people who do not know what they are talking about.

Even the AP puts Iraqi death toll at 110,600 people with 66,000 being confirmed civilians between 2003 and 2009 alone.

Even at 10,000 dead at the hands of Al Qaeda, we're talking about a factor of 11 times more death and several hundred billion more dollars. This is objectively worse while also occupying and installing a "friendly" government. If this doesn't send a message of might makes right, then what the do you call it.

Maybe instead of cherry-picking bullshit, you should go back more than 2 years to get your facts straight.

edit: And let's not forget that we went into Iraq because of Bin Laden.

Judson Phillips, the head of Tea Party Nation, said that the death of Osama bin Laden happened in spite of President Barack Obama and criticized the President for announcing the breaking news during Donald Trump’s “Celebrity Apprentice.” Phillips suggested that Obama did not want to give the order to raid bin Laden’s compound but if he “did not act, it would have killed any chance he had at reelection.” The Tea Party leader went on to criticize the administration for quickly burying the body, saying that “we should have told everyone that the body was wrapped in pig fat before burial,” claiming that bin Laden “represent[s] the mainstream of Islam”:

It took almost ten years, but Osama is dead. That is the good news.

The bad news is Obama is going to do what most politicians do, especially the liberal politicians. He is going to take credit for something that not only he had little to do with, but had we actually listened to him, the event never would have happened.

…

What should have happened, which would not happen under the Obama regime and to be fair, the Bush administration was too politically correct to do this either, but Osama’s body should have not been immediately buried. We should have told everyone that the body was wrapped in pig fat before burial.

Why?

It is not just the visceral insult. It is sending a message. Contrary to what the politically correct say, Osama does represent the mainstream of Islam. By defiling the body, we say that you are not getting your 72 virgins. This should be the policy we have with every Islamic terrorist we capture. If you die, we are going to deny you paradise. If we capture you, we are going to feed you nothing but pork until you talk.

Obama is taking credit for this. He did give the order. Did he really have a choice? If word leaked out that he had solid intelligence on where Bin Laden was and did not act, it would have killed any chance he had at reelection. Of course, he made his announcement right in the middle of Donald Trump’s “Celebrity Apprentice” show. Of course, that was just a coincidence.

'you all' - I sincerely hope you weren't trying to say everyone commenting here was equating the endless 'war on terror' with one man. You probably were since you hate when people paint you with broad strokes, but when you do it, well....dandy..

That Tea Party e-mail is ridiculous, Obama went above and beyond what both Democratic and Republican presidential candidates were willing to say regarding going into Pakistan if bin Laden was known to be there. McCain & Romney criticized Obama saying he wanted to 'bomb our allies'. Clinton & Dodd criticized Obama as 'naive'. The idea that Obama did this reluctantly or flip flopped when it came to this operation has no factual basis whatsoever. If there's on issue he's been consistent on, it's this one.

Even the AP puts Iraqi death toll at 110,600 people with 66,000 being confirmed civilians between 2003 and 2009 alone.

Even at 10,000 dead at the hands of Al Qaeda, we're talking about a factor of 11 times more death and several hundred billion more dollars. This is objectively worse while also occupying and installing a "friendly" government. If this doesn't send a message of might makes right, then what the do you call it.

Maybe instead of cherry-picking bullshit, you should go back more than 2 years to get your facts straight.

edit: And let's not forget that we went into Iraq because of Bin Laden.

....Did deadliest year since 2001 not sink into your head? Did multiplying the DEADLIEST year by ten not cover it? Anyways....suddenly we are talking about iraq to justify your lies. Which it does not even do that. Both combined does not even do that. Then you are saying that we went to iraq for bin laden? WTF? and you want me to get my facts straight? WOW.

'you all' - I sincerely hope you weren't trying to say everyone commenting here was equating the endless 'war on terror' with one man. You probably were since you hate when people paint you with broad strokes, but when you do it, well....dandy..

I was referring to the last couple people that posted, but fair enough, dohdough, magus, and clak.

Well to be fair, every wanted person in the world is living within 35 miles of someone, a good many of them likely in the US. In fact, sitting in the nation's capital about a mile from Obama himself I would be surprised if there aren't a few fugitives within 35 miles of me at this very moment, and I doubt many of them have as many people dedicated to keeping them hidden as Osama did. Plus, knowing the competency level of the Pakistani government as I do, I'm not the least bit surprised. Is it interesting? Yes. Suspicious? Not really.

Sorry I missed this post. It also goes to show how Obama did not inform Pakistan that it was going to strike 35 miles from their capital. That shows alot I think. Sure everyone who is wanted is close to someone, but pakistan has been known as a hiding place for al qaida so they should be more vigilant if they really didn't know he was there. Also I recently found out that this compound of bin ladens was 100 yards from a Pakistani military base.

You both make many very good points and I personally find both of your insights helpful in understanding this whole situation. Thank you for that.

When people argue, it's almost never a case of one side being all right and the other all wrong. Please accept the merits of each other's points and have a cordial debate rather than all this bickering. I believe that you can state your facts and opinions without letting too much of your emotions get wrapped up in between the lines.

But anyway, I am definitely encouraged to find thinkers on this site, and it's the reason I prefer these forums over many others. God bless you both.

I agree with Magus, dohdough, and javery. We "beat" Bin Laden but at what cost? This is the definition of a pyrrhic victory.

Yes because eliminating people who plan and execute terrorist attacks on us, declare war on us, plan and execute terrorist attacks on other countries, harm their own people, both physically and barring them from basic human rights is a terrible thing for this country to be doing.

The cost was great, but what cost would we be facing if we left Afghanistan as it was? Do you think bin laden was wrapping things up after 9/11?

Yes because eliminating people who plan and execute terrorist attacks on us, declare war on us, plan and execute terrorist attacks on other countries, harm their own people, both physically and barring them from basic human rights is a terrible thing for this country to be doing.

The cost was great, but what cost would we be facing if we left Afghanistan as it was? Do you think bin laden was wrapping things up after 9/11?

I recommend reading Blowback, by Chalmers Johnson. Then read Dying To Win, by Robert Pape.

Also, Imperial Hubris, by Michael Scheuer, is an excellent read. Scheuer was the head of the Bin Laden unit in the mid to late 90s.

I don't see the point on trying to argue about who is worse in terms of killing innocent people.

Innocent people die in an effort to accomplish something on both sides. The number of deaths to compare each other becomes irrelevant when both sides are basically doing the exact same thing, just for different reasons.

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