Military Members - Opt Out?

Semi-Crunchy-Dad

Last edited 09/11/2013

This will probably go nowhere, but I saw the pic on facebook and it made me wonder, so I'll try and make a debate of it anyway. I can't verify the authenticity of the pic in anyway, but for the purpose of debate, let's assume it's authtentic.

I often hear in debates about the military that you can't blame or hold responsible, troops who only only following orders of elected officials. That if you disagree with a war or military action, the blame, and your fight, lies with those officials.

I both agree and disagree with that argument. My reasons are long and complicated, largely unpopular, and could be the subject of a different debate.

For this debate...

Should military memebrs be allowed to opt out of military mission they disagree with?

Could we then hold soldiers accountable for participating in wars that large segments of the citizenry disagree with?

Would such a drastic change in the structure of our military force a much greater accountability on the part of elected officials to ensure they are only sending the military to fight just, supported wars?

I know the first thing many will say is 'that would never work, you can't chose which orders to obey and have a functional military'. Maybe. But what if we did it anyway? How would it work? What consequnces would you see, what benefits?

Comments (51)

Do I think that the rank and file should be able to pick and choose which missions they will support or be involved in? No. I think when you enlist or get a commission there is an implication that you are ok with what the military does. Higher ranks, maybe. I think part of the problem of the engagements we've become entangled in in the past 15 years is that our politicians don't listen to the military.

I do think it should be easier to get out of the military altogether if you have a contientious objection.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

This is the oath I took when I joined the military, it is the same oath I have taken every time I have re-enlisted. It is the same oath every military member makes. If I did not agree with something the president was doing then I would not re-enlist. If a military member feels that strongly about it there are ways to get out of the military...granted most of them would result in an other than honorable discharge.

Yes, most of us have a few years before our enlistment is up so by that time things would be over. However, that is the risk we take when we join the military. The path is completely unpaved and you have no clue what direction it will take you in from one day to the next. I am against military action at this time since diplomatic avenues have not been persued. BUT, if the BO said that we will strike then I am required to support it.

Could we then hold soldiers accountable for participating in wars that large segments of the citizenry disagree with?

I hold decision-makers accountable, always. I think until we require that enlistment be for older adults only, meaning at least 21 years no exceptions, then accountability at the granular level is kind of murky for me.

Would such a drastic change in the structure of our military force a much greater accountability on the part of elected officials to ensure they are only sending the military to fight just, supported wars?

The politicians already could be listening to their electorate and they don't. I'm not confident that military members will be any more heard.

Shame on him. I hope they find out who he is and dishonorably discharge him. He should not be doing that in a uniform and he knows it, hence hiding his face. I might have some respect for him if he was open about who he was, but this serves no purpose.

Do people think that most service men and women are pro-war? NO! No one wants to go to war. War is expensive when it comes to money and the lives lost on both sides. No sane person wants that. But there are times when going to war is necessary, and if you are in the service you know that it is your duty to go fight that war should you be deployed. And when you are there you better be there and watch your brothers and sisters in arms and defend and support them even if you don't personally agree with the war.

Now is it necessary to go to Syria? I don't think so, not when other avenues are still possible. But you better believe that I will 100% support our troops that get sent there whether I believe in the cause or not.

It's not logistical and could never be done... but you said let's not focus on that. Okay....

1) I don't think the vast majority of the public, including military members, have enought information about what is really going on to be able to make a call about what we should really be doing. I've believed for a long time that if I knew everything that was going on in our world, if I knew all the threats, I would be advocating building an electrified dome over the US that would incinerate everything that tried to come in. I mean, why do you think presidents age so much? For one, I think it's because they become privy to such scary and threatening news on a devastating basis that would send most of us into a panic attack. So based on the availability of knowledge, no I don't think the general miliatary should be able to make that decision because I don't think they can make a fully informed decision, ever.

2) I think there are some out that who would elect not to go into a military mission saying that it's because they don't agree with it, but in truth they want to stay out of danger, don't want to go live in a camp, or otherwise just don't wanna do it. That's not right.

3) Being a military service member is a job. It's a very special job and one of the most respectable things you can do, IMO. But, if I don't do part of my job, even if I don't agree with it, I lose my job. Unless you're the boss, you don't get to make those calls. Granted, my life isn't on the line at my job (not directly anyways), but it's still the same concept.

I think this is why it's so important to differentiate between supporting the troops and supporting the war. I find it incredibly hateful to not support the troops. They don't get to choose what they do, but they go out and put their life on the line every day in the name of country and freedom. They are often fighting enemies the rest of us will never know because they work offensively so that we don't have to know. I may not agree with every mission that the military is sent on, but I understand that they might not either and they are doing their job and duty so that I can sleep peacefully at night.

Should military members be allowed to opt out of military mission they disagree with?

I am going to say no with the thought process that once you get to a specific military mission you are already committed. You have already pledged service for your country so you serve. IMO (in my opinion) this should be a huge thought process before you join the military, even a large focus for recruiters. Besides this seems like one of those things that would be super easy to abuse. Don't feel like leaving your family for this six months? Don't agree. Not feeling another weekend specials opt assignment? Meh I don't agree.

Which then takes me to shear military numbers. We would have to double our military force so that in the event that 45% disagree we still have the numbers needed to take the stand we need to take. This would especially apply to special forces, that only have small numbers trained in the first place.

Could we then hold soldiers accountable for participating in wars that large segments of the citizenry disagree with?

Isn't this pretty much the case with all war in general though? It really isn't ever something that pleases the masses. Although I bet you can give me examples of times that it wasn't.

Would such a drastic change in the structure of our military force a much greater accountability on the part of elected officials to ensure they are only sending the military to fight just, supported wars?

IMO (in my opinion) no. I think that it would lead to a weaker infrastructure in general. But you will always be able to find someone to fight for your cause. Even if your cause is shaky at best. Which in that case would probably lead to more casualties because you no longer have the same strength in numbers.

Shame on him. I hope they find out who he is and dishonorably discharge him. He should not be doing that in a uniform and he knows it, hence hiding his face. I might have some respect for him if he was open about who he was, but this serves no purpose.

First don't you see how contradictory those two sentences are?

Second I don't agree that their voices should be taken away. They should have to stand firm and serve but they should be able to be heard when it comes to why they don't agree.

I know the first thing many will say is 'that would never work, you can't chose which orders to obey and have a functional military'. Maybe. But what if we did it anyway? How would it work? What consequnces would you see, what benefits?

To make it work they would have to cut benefits to be able to hire all of the excess people you will need (because who really is going to go to war when you can opt out), which would in turn make less people interested in joining, which would lead to lowering the standards to get in or even mandatory service/a draft.

Eventually there would have to be a call to arms for every engagement, it would have to be voluntary and you would get a lot of people who like war for the thrill of the kill signing up and then the handful of patriotic idealists. Sexual assualts and violence amongst service members would probably go up. Costs would certainly go up because of the last minute logistics of it.

The military is highly dependent on having its vast number made up of followers and a very rigid hierarchy. Our military would be ineffectual and we would be ripe for the picking.

Shame on him. I hope they find out who he is and dishonorably discharge him. He should not be doing that in a uniform and he knows it, hence hiding his face. I might have some respect for him if he was open about who he was, but this serves no purpose.

First don't you see how contradictory those two sentences are?

Second I don't agree that their voices should be taken away. They should have to stand firm and serve but they should be able to be heard when it comes to why they don't agree.

I do ... that post was just my initial emotional out pour. If he wanted to really take a stand then he should just do it. The nature of the military is that you give up your voice until you reach a position of command. That is not to say that they don't have a voiceat all, they do, it is in the same one that civilians have, in voting our elected officials who (for all the good it does as Thropp pointed out better than I can).

I've been in the "war room" and seen a small glimps of just what goes on behind the scenes in simple drilling, I can only imagine how much more goes on for an actual engagement.

Solidarity and a united front is key. But when you are in uniform you are the Navy and everything you do reflect upon it, your CO, and your unit.

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