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Interview with Thomas Tredway
First interview
[00:00-06:30]
Julia Nusbaum (talking about transferring) It was hard to get started at first, here…
Dr. Thomas Tredway: How come do you think?
JN: I think because the school was so small.
TT: Oh, yeah.
JN: But after awhile I kind of got situated.
TT: Yeah well, Dixon High school is…is that where you went?
JN: There’s, yeah, there’s about 900 students in Dixon. But the school was so small here is was hard to
get situated and like find people who were already friends, so…
TT: have you made friends then?
JN: Yeah, I have now.
TT: Are you in the choir, did you tell me [points at Chris]
Chris Sally: Uh, yeah, yeah.
JN: I am yeah; I’m just in the women’s choir.
TT: Well that helps, I mean…
JN: Yeah, it’s nice.
TT: [Turning to Chris] How about you? Where are you from?
CS: Uh, Deerfield, Illinois…
TT: Yeah, I know where that is. I went to school, grad school, in Evanston. I know where that is on the
north shore.
CS: Yeah, Yeah. My parents graduated from Evanston so that’s kind of, that’s kind of cool. But uh, yeah,
I’m a junior here, uh sociology major, history minor—so that’s why I’m in this class. Um, run cross
country track here.
TT: Oh? Do you?
CS: So coach Olsen…
TT: Olsen’s taken a lot of crap because they’ve got all these old, nearly dead, people up on these posters
and there’s Olsen!
CS: [laughing] Olsen’s right down there yeah.
TT: And everyone is thinking did…did Olsen die?
CS: I think you and Olsen are the only colored…pictures that have color with them.
JN: All the rest of them are black and white, yeah.
TT: We live in Santa Fe in the winter and uh, in the summer, then we’re here in the spring and fall and
uh, they sent me this email of this picture of the poster and said: “Is this okay?” and one of the
grandkids was in the, in the little office I have down there when, uh, the picture showed up on the
computer and “WHOA!! Is that weird!” [laughter] Kids four, so ya know. [To Chris] So what do you think
you’ll do when you get done?
CS: Uh, I’m interested in social work and things like that.
TT: Oh are ya?
CS: We had foster…
TT: Maybe you can get a job at Nachusa.
CS: [laughing] Yeah there ya go. Um, we had foster kids in our family and uh…
TT: Did ya?
CS: Uh, I’ve always been interested in that so…
TT: How big was your family?
CS: Uh, we had three, two brothers and one sister and then we had, ya know, foster brothers and sisters
coming in and out.
TT: Uh, huh.
CS: So uh yeah. You can do, you can do like counseling and stuff like that…
TT: Oh yeah.
CS: In a school setting and what not.
TT: Yeah, yeah. You’ll never get rich but…
CS: No, no, no. I here though the jobs will be go in the next ten years though. With ya know…
TT: That’s what I hear.
CS: I don’t know though. I don’t know.
TT: Yeah that’s what everybody thinks.
CS: Yeah.
TT: Well I just yeah, well I’ll just tell you about myself very quick. I grew up in New York State, uh, around
Niagara Falls. In the western part of the state and uh, I came to college here and then I, I was gonna
major in philosophy and after about three courses I thought: “This stuff is so airy” [waves hands above
head] ya know? So I switched to history, and then went to grad school in history Fist at Illinois and then
at Northwestern. Uh, when I was finishing at, at NU, at Northwestern uh, um back in those days—this
was the 60s—I, I sent out, I don’t know, fifty letters ya know? Just looking for a job. And uh, lo and
behold they sent me, well I got a letter from the head of the history department here that said, well,
they had a job and ah, did I want to interview for it? So I drove down one weekend and I did the
dumbest thing I’ve ever done in my life. They said, “Well, give us your expenses when you go back to
Evanston.” And I said, “Oh it’s so great to be back at Augustana.” I didn’t want to charge for it. I mean I
meant it, I wasn’t trying to schmooze them…I don’t think I was. God, that’s fifty bucks they still owe me.
Ten cents a mile or whatever it was in those days.
But, anyway, uh, then I got a job in the history department and then I went and taught for awhile, uh, up
in Canada. And when I came back here from having taught in Ontario, at a university there, the uh, Dean
resigned, suddenly. I mean he had, went somewhere else. And Uh, it was in the middle of the, it was the
late 60s and there was lot of student unrest. And a lot of uh, very strong feeling on the campus. The
students thought they aught a have more control. In fact, ah, the leader wanted to have the dorms
turned over to and owned by the students. And the president of the college was looking for faculty who
were willing to get into conversations with the students. And the guy who was the student body
president was in one of my classes. I taught European history, it was a seminar on the reformation and
the Renaissance so I knew him real well, in fact we used to go canoeing together and ah, so the
president asked me if I’d be in this group that had dialog with the kids because ah, he needed somebody
that could, was closer to there age. I don’t know how close I was, early thirties I guess. So, ah, I got to
know the president because of that and ah, to my amazement he asked me did I want to be the Dean of
the faculty. So I did that or five years and then he retired. And often in those days, and it still is the case,
I mean the guy who was Dean here last year is president now of a college in Michigan, and ah often you
go from being a Dean to president and I got the presidents job and ah ya know, I didn’t know how long I
would do it, but geez I did it twenty-eight years. And ah I finally retried in about two-oh-oh-three.
So I’ve been retired seven or eight years and ah, my wife still works she teaches nursing at the
University of Illinois but she teaches online. I mean all her students are online. Ah, uh, and most of them
are nurses who are trying to get a bachelors degree. They, they’ve gone to a community college
[gestures at Julia] to get an RN license but then they go for two more years they get a BSN and they get
a promotion. And their salaries go up and that sort of stuff. So she teaches online. But because she is
online we can spend half the year where our grandchildren are in Santa Fe and the other half here. So, I
just got back from Santa Fe. Maybe…well it was already, school was, because we start so early here now,
I, I think school was in session two or three weeks when I came back. But anyway that’s what I’m up to.
CS: Cool.
TT: So anyway…
CS: Yeah, sure, no…
TT: Yeah I don’t want to tie you guys up too long.
[06:30-08:28]
CS: Okay great so, yeah, so yeah we’re just going to get the recorders out.
TT: You bet.
CS: And um, we’ll get going.
TT: Okay.
[beeping of Chris’s recorder]
JN: Push the hold button up.
CS: Oh yeah, there we go.
TT: Technology.
CS: Alright, so ah, you said you were, you were from New York?
TT: Western New York.
CS: Um, can you just, we’re trying to, you know, figure out what the Augustana story is here and just
kind of look at your experience before Augustana. What kind of person you were growing up? And how
that was during that whole experience?
TT: Well, yeah, uh, yeah. My dad died when I was fairly young. Yeah right at the beginning of World War
II, in fact I can remember—barely remember—Pearl Harbor and ah, about a month later my dad died.
He had had surgery and it, it didn’t work and he died. When he died, uh, my mom, I think I was four or
five, my mom uh, raised my sister and me then. And uh, I came here because of church. I mean we went
to church and the minister in our church said you aught a think about going to college out in Illinois. And
uh, I checked it out and I liked it. So uh, I drove, essentially from Buffalo, New York—uh and believe me
they were two lane highways, there were no interstates in those days—drove ya know, across Ohio and
Indiana and Illinois and here I was. Uh, and then as I was telling ya earlier when I graduated uh, I had
decided I wanted to go to grad school so I started at Illinois and then through a series of circumstances I
ended up at Northwestern University. Where I got my, where I did my doctorial work and then I came
back here to teach.
[08:28-11:45]
CS: Yeah, I mean I think it said that you transferred from North Park.
TT: Right. I went there two years. Right.
CS: Okay. Can you describe, because that, also back in the day and still, I think today, had a big Swedish
population.
TT: Oh, yeah.
CS: And here it was too. What kind of led to the decision…?
TT: Yeah, uh, I had went there and then here because uh, my mom, after my dad died had to work and
she was a nurse and of course she had to work weekends so she sent us to a little church in the
neighborhood which happened to be a Swedish Protestant church. And actually they were in the
process of building the building and they met in a fire hall. You know, one of these volunteer fire halls
where the truck, hook and ladder were on the ground floor and upstairs there was a hall where Saturday
night there would be a beer party and Sunday morning there would be a church service [laughter]. So, it
was almost by accident, through that association, and through that church I went first to North Park—
and in those days everybody from North Park, was a junior college, either they went to Minnesota
because they were all Swedish kids from Minnesota or, I think either that year eight or ten of us came
here. In fact, oddly enough, I was with a bunch of those North Park Augustana people last weekend. We
had a little reunion of our own up in Rockford. Guys my age. Well, women too.
JN: What uh, what was it like being a transfer student here back like then? Because I know for me now
like being a transfer student it was kinda hard because Augustana’s so, like everyone already knew each
other, and it was kind of weird coming in and like being an upper classmen but feeling like a freshman.
TT: sure.
JN: So was it an interesting transition?
TT: Uh, yeah it was. But uh, because there was kind of a pack of us that came together uh, there
probably were six fellas and maybe two or three women who came. We had, we had at least a little
group. I mean you…
JN: Yeah, I came by myself.
TT: You came by yourself so that took a little more gumption. Yeah, it, it it wasn’t a big adjustment to be
honest. Uh, the classes here were a little more formal—a little less lively to be honest. Uh, a little more
lecture and a little less discussion. It was a more traditional place. Uh, Rock Island wasn’t Chicago. You
know, North Park is sitting up there on the north side of Chicago. And uh, uh, Rock Island was a little
different but to be honest I loved it here a lot because I liked the smaller towns. You could walk around.
Uh, walk down to Moline or walk down to Rock Island. Uh, and I, I liked student life here better then I
had at North Park because, to be truthful, it was a little less “religious.” [Makes air quotes] I’m making
quote signs around the word religious and there was uh, of uh…social types then at North Park. At North
Park everybody was pretty [draws out word while thinking] conservative. And pretty pious. And here,
there were plenty of those kinds of folks but there were plenty of other kinds of people who went down
town and snuck into the bars if they could.
[11:45-17:44]
CS: Uh, at Augustana you were I think park of the Covenant Club it was.
TT: Yeah.
CS: And a part of the OZO fraternity. Could you explain or describe it?
JN: What’s the Convenant Club? I saw a picture of it in the yearbook and I just…
TT: Yeah, well the church that owned North Park was called the Covenant Church. Covenant meaning
agreement, just like in the English word. And these people had, they felt they had made an agreement
with themselves and with God to serve in whatever way he wanted them to. And uh, I mean this calling
to service was a big big thing so that’s how that name covenant came. And that’s the church that still
owns North Park. Uh, and uh, that’s what the Covenant Club was, it was kids who had grown up in that
church.
Uh, as far as the OZOs, go, they were probably at the other end of the social spectrum then the
Covenant Club. [laughter]. And ah, of that group of transfers from North Park uh, a couple of us I think
pledged the OZOs…a couple pledged DON. Did one or two pledge PUG? They might have. That fraternity
is out of business now I think. Uh, so uh, in those days the student body was about half Greek and about
half not. And I thought it was a way to get to know people.
JN: Yeah, I pledged too when I came.
TT: did ya? In retrospect there were so many calories wasted in that stuff, ya know? I mean just the
pledging. I was like you; I mean here I was I though if I were a junior, ya know? I was whatever, twenty
instead of eighteen or whatever. And uh, ya know, most of the other pledges, ya know I think there
were one or two other fellas my age in the pledge class but ya know most of them were freshmen. And
uh, in retrospect over the years I’ve always wondered whether ya know, I don’t know…but it was a way
to get to know some guys. And we had a lot of fun.
JN: Did you um, did you participate in um, I think they turned the dome of Old Main into a Teapot.
TT: Yeah.
JN: Did you participate in that or no?
TT: We did, I was in the fraternity. I wasn’t, believe me I didn’t climb the dome [laughter] I mean you
wouldn’t get me up there with that scaffolding that’s up there now. But we had a guy who was a
mountain climber.
JN: Oh really?
TT: And he repelled up there. I mean he lassoed that little spike at the top of the dome and he, I mean
he got himself up on a rope.
JN: Oh wow.
TT: And he’s the one who hung the handle and the spout up there.
JN: Wow. I would never do that.
TT: No, in the dark. You know, student life in some ways in the 50s was so much…more conservative
then it is now. But precisely because we all lived by the rules. I mean women had dorm hours—I’m sure
you’ve heard all of this. During the week they had to be in by eight and then uh, I think they got, I think,
one ten o’clock and one twelve o’clock a week. And I mean otherwise ya know, during the week they
would lock ‘em up at eight o’clock. And uh, uh, because student life was so, uh conservative—and our
attitudes were conservative. If you read social history, generally, I mean American social history
generally, I mean the Eisenhower years were years, when, if you play by the rules, and that’s the
difference between us and your generation, we knew there were jobs waiting for us when we got out.
We’d get in some corporation or some school system. I mean there were plenty of teaching jobs. I knew
that if I went to grad school when I got my PhD, I’d get a job at a college. That it was worth while playing
by the rules. And so when you pulled a prank and, ya know, did something like that. It always was a
prank that made a little fun of the rules. In this case the sacred dome, ya know? Or another time a
bunch of guys put a car in the basement of Old Main. [laughter.] Uh, I mean took a small old Model A or
something an old Model T type Ford in the basement. And another time we poured water on the door
when it was ten below zero and the locks all froze and nobody could go to class. [aside] I said we I met
they.
Uh, ya know, so the pranks all took for granted the existence of this structure and of these rules and
patterns and we mainly wanted to live by them, they were going to be good to us. And they were. I
mean I, I don’t know how it is for you guys but I still think maybe in some ways I was, my generation was
the luckiest American Generation…maybe ever. Because we missed World War II, we—most of us—
barely missed Korea and we were too old for Vietnam. And when we got out of school there were all
kinds of jobs. And America was booming. Uh, in a way, no offense that it isn’t right now. So uh, the
pranks were a way for, I think, as I reflect back on it, the pranks in themselves were a sign of a larger set
of social attitudes. And rarely did we ever do any damage to anything. I mean, real damage. But it we
sure had a lot of fun and it was a way of poking fun at the rules and maybe even at ourselves. I mean
one time I remember at chapel they wired, we took a wire across the back row. The choir sang and then
at the right time we connected it to a battery and all the basses got up, ya know? Because they got
zapped. [laughter]. Well that’s the kind of ya know…now in retrospect I think, students now look at us
and say, “Geez you guys were really, what twits.” But we had a good time. I, I mean I had a wonderful
time in college.
[17:44-18:45]
CS: Yeah, uh, um were there any mentors or teachers that kind of, you end up coming back to the school
to teach, that you had classes were there any teachers that had…
TT: Yeah the head of the philosophy department who was also the Dean of the faculty. Uh, a man
named Arbaugh. You’ll see his name in the catalog. I respected him a great deal. The head of the history
department, a man named Ander was really good to the history majors and to me. I mean he got us into
grad school and I think he perjured himself saying how great we were. So alot of us got grants to go to
grad school. I got one at Illinois and another guy got one at Northwestern. Another guy got one out, and
went to Wisconsin. So you know, those two people here were the two faculty I respected the most.
[18:45-20:57]
JN: Um…your senior year you were president of the Student Union?
TT: I was vice president.
JN: Vice president, okay. Um, is the Student Union like student government?
TT: Yeah, yeah it was. But again it was so, well I mentioned to you while we were chatting that uh, I got
to be Dean of faculty because I, through a series of connections, knew a student who was leading, you
know, kind of a student uprising in the late 60s, in 69. Uh, and I got involved in a dialog group that tried
to work with him and with his colleagues. Um that would have been unthinkable to us. I mean that we
would ask to have control of the dorms. We took it for granted that this nice lady down the hall, the
house mother. We called them all “Ma.” There was “Ma Magnisun” and “Ma Domay” Ya know, that they
were the house mothers. We didn’t think we were gonna run the dorms. The student government, lets
just say by the light of people in the 60s we were wimps. And these kids in the 60s ya know, they told
me so I mean, “You guys didn’t have any guts. You took the world the way it was. You didn’t try to
change it.” I mean revolution was something merry-go-rounds did, ya know? I mean they went around
and around. I mean we didn’t think, ya know, that, well, anyway…
CS: Um you end up becoming president. In 1975.
TT: Yeah.
CS: Um so how, cause you taught before and then you were Dean…
TT: Yeah
CS: Um what kind of differences—I mean there’s obviously differences in ya know the responsibilities
and things like that, and um, can you talk about those differences a little bit. And…
[20:57-28:30]
JN: Before we get to that can I ask, um like you went to seminary…
TT: Yes.
JN: Also, so can I like…
TT: Yeah
JN: Like what was your…
TT: Well what I, I had spent a year over at Illinois and I got a masters degree in history. And then back to
North Park and my up bringing in the church I had always thought that maybe I would be a minister. So,
uh, I decided I’d go to seminary. [aside] There’s a seminary at Northwestern University.
JN: Oh, Okay.
TT: So I thought I’d go to seminary. And I did and uh, I already had a masters in history and uh, so uh, I
guess within a year of seminary—the seminary program takes four years—within a year of starting I
realized that I was more interested in religion uh, academically then I was in being a minister. And that
isn’t putting down the ministry; I mean I just realized that I, my interest was um, to combine my
importance of the religious faith with a study of its history—particularly Christianity. So the doctoral
program, I stayed in the seminary. I mean I got a seminary degree from Northwestern, the seminary
there. But uh, um then you go right into a doctoral program and so a lot of my work was in Christian
history. And a lot of it was in European history. It was in a period where the two were pretty much the
same thing. Europe was all Christian and the Renaissance and the Reformation so uh [large sigh]. I knew
that I felt that I had more freedom teaching then I did in the ministry. And I didn’t honestly think that I
wanted to run a mimeograph machine. It was before Xeroxes and ya know so I didn’t want to crank out
the weekly—I don’t know if you kids go to church—I didn’t want to crank out the weekly church…
JN: Oh the bulletin?
TT: Yeah, and uh, while I was at Northwestern in seminary and then uh, in the years that I stayed there
in grad school uh, um I worked as a youth minister at a church uh, in the north suburbs, Skokie actually,
for whatever that’s worth. But uh, but I always knew that I wanted to be an academic with an interest in
Religion rather than a parish minister. Um but that’s, I don’t know if that’s a good answer .
JN: No, yeah. I was just curious about…
TT: Yeah.
JN: Going to Seminary…
TT: Yeah
JN: And not going, like a lot of people who go to seminary peruse the ministry.
TT: Oh yeah.
JN: So I was just wondering…
TT: Oh yeah, I mean typically if you go to seminary you end up being ordained as a minister. But I never
was. I mean I had plenty of experience, chances or exposure, so to say, in the church while I was in
seminary. And I debated whether…but I quickly decided no, I wanted to be a teacher. Uh, and in those
days at Augustana, and even more at North Park, the idea was that teaching was a kind of ministry too.
You would work with people and especially in a school like this. I mean I spent a year in Champaign, like
I said, and I mean you know there there’s a group of favored people and your given a lecture. If you’re a
faculty member you’ve got teaching assistance, TAs who are doing all the grading and who probably
know the students because they’ve got them broken down in discussion groups of twenty. TA by TA by
TA.
Buy ah, but ah, I knew that I wanted to teach in a school like this because I had a great time in school
here, and at North Park too, but especially here. Uh, and it was a great time socially and it was a great
time intellectually and it was a great time spiritually. And uh, um, so I thought this is the way to get to
know, I loved them. But uh, I loved kids. I had a great time being one and I thought, “well maybe I can
prolong my childhood and my young adulthood by teaching.”
So, you asked [points to Chris] about the switch to administration. Uh, we thought, I mean we knew
everything when we were young faculty here. So we thought we could do a better job than the guys in
Founders Hall. Well, they weren’t in Founders in those days though. Administrative offices were in the
library—in Dankmen. But uh, ya know we thought, “well we could do that with our eyes closed better
then these guys do it.” So when the chance came to be Dean I was really eager to have it. Uh, the
president thing I was a little twitchier about. I mean, ya know. I knew that it would take me off campus a
lot in terms of alumni meetings and raising money and representing the college at state and national
associations. So uh, I had reservations. And I thought at the time, “Well I’ll see how it goes.” I always
thought I’d go back to teaching because I really enjoyed teaching and I uh, I enjoyed the relationships
with the students and I loved the stuff I was dealing with. I mean I’m still working on some of these
same things. I mean I’m writing an article right now that touches on some of the kinds of the things I
would have been teaching. So that was a little bit more of a dubious switch, but uh, but. And ya know,
I’ll be honest with ya uh, my wife and I talked about this when we were driving across Kansas coming
back from New Mexico. Uh, I stayed in that job, I was president here for twenty eight years and I don’t
mean it cynically I mean I cashed my pay checks. I got paid better than I would have if I had been uh,
professor of history. But I gotta tell ya. I’ve had, its been so wonderful since I retired to get back into
scholarship and writing and lecturing. And I’m, I’m, I get enough invitations that it keeps me out of
trouble. And I, I like it so much that I, ya know, now in retrospect at this point in my life I think “Geez did
I spend twenty-eight year dinkin around…” Now no offense. And uh, I mean I had a certain view of how
you aught to be president and since I came from the faculty I really believed the faculty were the hear
of, of the school. Along with the two-thousand students, ya know. And being president I didn’t get to be
with the students as much. And I didn’t, the Dean of Faculty is in charge of faculty, I didn’t really get to
be…but I kept a lot of friends, I hate to say that. I still got guys and women that I hung around with then
that I still hang around with here. But, it’s a difference. Administration…eh, okay [makes a hand motion]
Well, I hate to be a traitor. But I sure think the world of Augustana. I mean I ya know, I don’t regret
anything I ever did to try to make it a better school, uh that’s for sure. I mean and that’s what your job
is, its to help build the school. I mean both buildings and a better faculty and uh, more money in the
endowment so you can give more student aide, I mean that’s what your job is.
[28:30-32:35]
CS: Im curious, cuz Bergendoff was the president before…did you get any advice for the transition?
TT: Well, uh ya that’s a good question Chris. Uh, Bergendoff walked around here with this sorta…I mean
an aura about him. I was gonna say hello, but uh he was Dr. Bergendoff and uh he was a great man. And
he was… and what did we know I mean were twenty years old, I wouldn’t know a great man from uh,
Mickey Mantle. But, uh…uh I mean they told us he was, but uh then when I became president I
discovered what a wonderful human being he was. He really was a remarkable man. And he was a
person of a… large spirit of great learning, of great patience and kindness, he was a gentle soul in the
best sense. And I wondered how he made it and that’s where he really helped me because…if your
president…I mean let me give you a for instance. I mean somebody comes in uh, I don’t want to be to
mean but uh… [lowers voice] “Dr. Tredway, ya I admit I punched out the door in the dorm, but you know
I do crazy stuff when I’m drunk.” Well you know there’s a million things you could say to that. I mean
like “oh gee well your drunk, well I didn’t know that so it’s ok then.” You know, uh…or you know well do
you have a drinking problem, or…or but you know if in the end the student… I don’t know what you guys
call it now…the student judiciary board. Uh, the process has had a hearing and this fella has been uh you
know given a fair chance to argue his point and if this group of students and faculty had voted that he
oughta be suspended for a quarter well…he can repeal to the president. Well, I never thought I’d be
sittin in a room saying to some guy “no Mr. Jones you probably gotta go back to Deerfield for winter
quarter”. You know and then if you shape up and get a little counseling and quit drinking you can come
back. Uh, so there were a lot of aspects to the job were your… and the same with tenure for the faculty.
I mean there were people who got tenure and got to stay, and there were people who didn’t you know.
I never thought… I always thought I’d be dealing with mistakes that other people have made during the
Renaissance, or you know… I taught U.S. history for a while… or how they should have done the civil war
you know. I didn’t think I’d be sittin there in my own little world doing the same kind of thing…I mean on
a smaller scale, but the same kind of thing dealing with people’s lives and futures. And uh that troubled
me a great deal. While I was president for example, the issue of homosexuality in the faculty came up. I
mean prior to that no one ever talked about it, even let alone lived it…you know let alone express his or
her own homosexuality. But while I was president these questions…you know society began to loosen
up and things changed and it became uh…those were uh…I didn’t ever plan on dealing with those kind
of questions and I didn’t like it. And I used to lie awake at night and stew about it. I didn’t figure I’d ever
have my office occupied by the black student union…BSU, but I did. Uh you know and uh… I didn’t figure
I’d ever sit there and people said it wasn’t hard being president and there were five guys in Old Main
that thought they knew how to do it better than I did…[chuckles] And told me…at lunch every day. But
you know, I never dreamed of any of that. I had no plans for that and I didn’t…to be honest all the 28
years I didn’t like that part of it. I did it because I felt like someone has to do it, but well…I like this kind
of stuff much better.
[32:35-37:20]
CS: As far as uh…do you have a like uh biggest accomplishment during your presidency that you would
pinpoint or…?
TT: Ooohhhhhh[deep thought]
CS: I know there was a lot of things…
TT: [Long pause] I…I…I’ll say this, I don’t…I think the happiest I ever felt uh, there were two people. One
was a good friend who taught religion and one was a person in the English department who didn’t
partic.. [stops]….I wasn’t her favorite person. And when this building got built uh in the fall, [talking
about the library] it was the opening faculty meeting. It was September and the sky was bright blue and
you know the wind was out of the north and it was cool finally in Illinois. And well you know…I mean I
always love the opening of school. And uh, I met this woman on the sidewalk. And she said “well thank
you for the library we really love it.”[uses sarcastic voice] I…I didn’t build the library. And then uh, this
guy there was a problem with uh, a new faculty position in the religion department. The dean and I
thought that it ought to be given to Dr. A, and the religion department said he was ok but they prefer Dr.
B. I mean these were people that we had interviewed. And I went to talk to this guy and said to him
Arnie you know we got to work this out, we gotta come to some agreement and meeting of minds. And
uh, he said well “ya I don’t like the fact that you guys want somebody other than what we want, but
there is a lot of respect for that library and we really appreciate it.” I mean that’s the best I’ve ever felt.
Now you know we got whatever it was eight million dollars to build that computer building. That was a
kind of kick I mean the guy calls me up and says were going to give you the eight million bucks. I mean
we’ve been out in New York hustling the money, I mean trying to get it. And it was…it was a big prestige
thing because they didn’t give it to most colleges. And a lot of other presidents called me up and said
“how did you wangle that you snake.”[Laughter]
Uh, but the happiest I’ve ever felt was that, here was this building full of books…uh and you know… and
believe me we fought over designing it because uh the person who was librarian had a protective idea
that a library was a place you kind of build a moat around and then you protected your books. And the
architects who came from Boston to design it, whom we hired said “a library oughta be the intellectual
living room of the college.” You know it oughta be a place where people feel good. And I’ll never forget,
it got to the point where they were showing us furniture. I mean sooner or later you know they’re
gonna…and they got slides and…and sloshes of material. And he said at one point, the architect, or the
designer the interior decorator I guess you could call him, said “this is something that you know like that
thing you were saying…kid can put his foot on it, it isn’t going to kill it”. The librarian said [chuckles and
lowers voice] “they will not be putting their feet up in my library.” [laughter] And I said “it’s not your
library. It’s not my library. Its…it belongs to all of us you know?” And uh when it opened kids began to
use it right away and then you know we built the coffee shop. It just felt like a place where you felt
good.
I mean that’s why…another reason why I love this part of my life…because here I got this little cubby
hole. And you know you can go out there and have coffee and it’s all these books. And you’ve got a
computer so the whole world is open to you. Uh, that’s the happiest I’ve…I don’t know if that’s the best
thing I did, but I love it, I still do. And then…you know I have to say when they said “well were going to
name it for you…” Uh, geez I mean I thought I can’t belie [stops]…you know I couldn’t believe it. I still
can’t sometimes. [starts lightly crying] I…I…you know when my grandsons old enough I’ll bring him here.
You know I hope he comes to college here, but he only wants to go to Stanford the poor dope.
[laughter] Well… [stops crying]
CS: Meh, Stanford…
TT: [Chuckles] Ya, well can’t win em’ all.
CS: Ya just… the library is great. I mean I know, on a side note, coming in here as a freshman it was a big
attraction.
JN: I think it’s like the heart of the school.
CS: Ya
TT: Ya…And uh, President Bahls is talking about you know they’re thinking about building uh…uh student
center activities and food and snack bars and stuff out that way [points behind him which is where
entrance/exit to coffee shop is]…on the upper level. And that will even make it better I think. I really like
it here.
[37:20-39:34]
JN: Ya it’s nice. Um, I know I read that you had a lot to do with planting a lot of the trees on campus.
Actually, someone was just telling me today that their parents when they dropped them off at school
their freshman year they were like “Oh remember when Tredway was building all those trees when we
were here?’’
TT “[Laughter] Ya… ya.
JN: So did you just want to like beautify the campus?
TT: Oh ya I did. Uh, I…There’s a wonderful poem by William Butler Yates. He says uh, well I won’t give
you the whole poem but uh, I will live aloud uh in… with the bees in the glade he says. And then there’s
this phrase from the Greeks you know the growth of academe. And I always thought a college oughta
have a lot of shade. When I went to Champaign, you kids wouldn’t be here, but the Dutch elm disease
had come across the middle western, it had killed all the elms. Uh, U of I had these huge arching elms
and they all died. And I can remember when they were taken down and then seeing you know the
grounds people planting them down at the quad at Illinois. And uh, uh, now they’re big old trees again
fifty years later. Well, I always felt there are you know…because I thought in the winter the leaves will all
go and you’ll see all the buildings, but then when Spring comes and it’s time for people to leave
everything blossoms out on campus and for the seniors it’s the last memories of the way life ought to
be. Full of blossom and greening you know. And then in the fall when you come back uh, there is all the
color and you know…
JN: Fall and spring are my favorite here.
TT: Ya…oh ya! Well, I mean that’s how Kate and I you know, we decided well summer is a tough
inspectoral round. It’s a swamp here. You know I mean the humidity and…and the winter well uh I love
to bike and uh…So we go to New Mexico in the winter and in the summer and we are here in the spring
and fall. I love the springs and falls here. [Pause] Ya I do. Uh, we live now up the river in Hampton and uh
when the wind shifts in the North and it blows across the river and in our bedroom window in the fall
that’s great.
[39:34-41:52]
JN: Um, you said that you liked to bike. I know I read in an article down in Special Collections as I was
researching you…umm [laughter], but uh, I read that you and Reverend Swanson talked about biking
from Seattle to Rock Island. Did that ever happen?
TT: Uh, he died and uh, I went alone but I went from here to Boston. I never did the ride from Seattle.
JN: Ok
TT: I had a kid who was uh working in a church camp out in New England so I decided I’d bike out and
get him at the end of the summer and come home. But uh…ya Swanson. Uh, he was my best friend here
and we did a lot together. We used to bike a lot and… he… just before he died, and he died fairly mature
at 70…71. He and I took a bike ride up uh…actually up to Rock Falls.
JN: Oh Really?
TT: Ya and there is a super…
JN: That’s a long ride.
TT: Well, there is a motel up there. We got up there late one night and then the next day we said well
we’ll go up to Rockford. Uh, so we went up uh…uh…you can’t ride on two because it lines along, but
anyways we went back lots and…Finally his wife and my wife drove up to pick us up. By then it was
Friday night and we were gonna…And Swanie had a uh, Pastor Swanson, had a yellow bike suite, it was
raining by Friday night when we got there. And his wife came up [chuckles]…and said…and I had an
orange one and she said “gosh look at this were picking up a banana and a carrot.”[laughter] So uh…ya
he and I biked a lot that banana and uh…We usually talked the world you know, and our religious views
over. Over the years they evolved and changed. I hope I still am faithful to the things I believed in as a
kid, but your understanding of life and people changes. So we did a lot of that kind of stuff on those bike
rides. A lot. I loved him greatly. [sigh]
[41:52-47:21]
CS: I guess real quick, this is kind of question that I have always wanted to ask um people who were
teachers and administrators. Um, like how would you define student success? Because society seems
like it judges people off the GPA, ACT, and standardized test scores. It seems like there is a little more to
that I was just wondering…
TT: Well, you two are case and point. I uh…cases and point. Uh…I mean if you each would follow the
inclinations you have now as I said to you kiddingly I mean you never are going to get rich at either one
of these jobs. But to work with historical materials as I think you might and to save them so that guys
like me can come and I mean I can’t tell ya what a wonderful time I had writing that history of the
college. I mean there are times I would be reading about, well you mentioned Bergendoff [points at
Chris], I would be reading about Dr. Bergendoff. Uh, here in the middle of his letters boxes and boxes
the guy saved every Kleenex he ever blew his nose on and uh[laughter] In the middle of all these boxes
you know are his letters and I’d be looking for little juicy tid bits. You know gossip, little dirty secrets that
presidents only know, but here every couple years are… [indecipherable] Uh, letters to the Rock Island
railroad or the Burlington railroad uh could I have a clergy pass. You know ministers rode for free and
Bergendoff was a minister. So the… you know… when he went out to raise money in Des Moines he
would take the train and uh it was free because he had a clergy pass. Well I could see him in his dark…
you know… wool suite, it didn’t matter [indecipherable]
Um, or take what you think you’ll [talking to Chris] do I worked for years in an orphanage when I was up
at NU. Uh, I got boardroom and I was a houseparent uh during the week when the houseparent’s got a
break and so I could study, put the kids to bed. I mean when I think of the people I’ve known in social
work and what they can do you know…So you know I still think of some of those guys. I mean they were
real weines I mean some of those kids and the tricks they’d play and the crap they’d pull on me and all
that stuff. But uh, so what do I think success is…I mean I think it’s doing something where you can
contribute to the human growth of others and yourself. My daughter wanted… wanted to be a physical
therapist and we were talking about how she oughta write a letter to get into grad school. And finally
one of my friends we were trying to help her said…the question was…why do you want to be a physical
therapist? My friend said to Becky, “you oughta write that it’s a useful and rewarding profession.” Ok
useful in what way? Well…and rewarding. Does that mean a big paycheck or how will it be rewarding?
So my definition of student success is to take a place in the world where you are doing something useful
and rewarding and then leave it to the person to decide what she thinks useful and rewarding mean.
Uh, but you know I just spoke at an alumni dinner event. We were in Santa Fe and they said well could
you drive up to Denver, there was an Augustana alumni event this summer. I said to Kate while we were
driving up through the mountains “Well geez I used to hate to do this” But, whenever you get there it’s
great because you meet these people you know, one kid you can remember from teaching western civ,
is a doctorate. Another one is a school librarian, another one is a minister, another is a lawyer and it’s
just so great you know. And you can’t remember if you knew them in 1970 or 1999, but here they are
and they all have memories and you get to talk with them. Uh, so this school I mean the people that left
it that I see are wonderful people. And some of them got a lot of money and I hope they shoot it back
here cuz the windows are going. [pointing at his office windows…laughter] But uh you know, some of
them aren’t making a lot of money but they are fulfilled and that’s my criteria. So you guys are on the
right track. [Pause] Absolutely.
JN: I hope. [Laughter]
TT: Well you can always change. [More laughter]
[47:21-50:40]
JN: Um, do you have anything to say about like…because your still here on campus…the community life
of Augustana? Like a lot of people talk about how it’s really such a close-knit school and how they really
like how close-knit it is. Can you um, make a comparison to was it still…I know you said that um like
while you were here it was a lot more everyone kind of followed the rules more…I guess we
don’t.[laughter]
TT: Oh no, that was not my inclination…
JN: But like student life now…do you see a difference in it?
TT: [Pause] Uh…uh…the best comment I can make to that is that the ways in which people communicate
now are so different because of technology. That you know cell phones and texting and the rest, let
alone emails. That uh…it…it… I was here when computers were brought to the campus. And when it got
to be that you’d go to coffee with some colleague and he’d say “did you get my email?” And I’d say
“Well talk to me man here I am.” Uh, to me the biggest difference in the community life seems to be
that there are so many alternative ways for people to relay and communicate with one another. We had
to do it face to face. I mean there was one phone on the dorm wing when I you know they…”Hey
Tredway there’s a call for you,” and then you’d go down the hall and answer the one phone that sat
there. And if some other guy was talking to his girlfriend well guess what? The call didn’t go through.
Um, that would be the biggest difference. I…I…I… I don’t think I could judge. I often wonder what it
would feel like to be a student now and I try to use my imagination. But I gotta be truthful to you guys.
When my kids got out of college then I’d realized I didn’t have the same pipeline into the student mind
that I had had when my kids were in high school and in college. I mean then I knew what all the slang
was you know, what kids were worried about and I had a better idea of what sexual patterns were. I had
a better idea of how much they studied. I mean one of my kids went here. Well, the other one did too
eventually because she decided to be a physical therapist. So she graduated from Iowa and then came
here and took the Science courses because she had been a French major at Iowa. But uh, you know as
long as they were in school I had a better idea. And uh, once they were out of school then I didn’t have
as good a read on kids as I had had. So that’s the answer I can give ya.
JN: I was just curious…
TT: Ya, ya, sure.
[50:40-54:24]
CS: Well I don’t think we have any more questions for you. Is there anything you would like to kinda add
to this whole thing. Any comments or suggestions for…
TT: Well [interruption]…Pardon me…
JN: I was just going to say is there anything about life at Augustana that we may have missed?
TT: Well I think that what a school like this offers is…has to do with some of the things we’ve been
talking about. I mean I hope… I certainly felt when I went to grad school that I was as well prepared
academically as the people that came from Notre Dame or Northwestern you know. Uh, but I felt that I
had had a richer human experience here to be honest than they had had. At least as we compared
notes. And since I think in the end all learning is personal. I mean if it doesn’t involve you personally… if
it’s just something over there and your only dealing with the subject matter and you don’t get involved
with it, whether its chemistry or physics on the one hand, or literature or philosophy on the other, if you
don’t get involved with it then uh…then the learning isn’t as deep and as thorough and as important to
you as a human being. For me, an education is about…about waking up to the glory of human life and of
the world. I often think, I mean the things that matter the most to me are the outside world of nature.
As I said I love to bicycle. I love to cross northern Illinois, I love New Mexico too, but to be honest I like
Illinois better. I know it’s flat uh, I love the farms and I like to think about kids growing up in the homes
that I pass and I love to go into the small town cafes and listen to the farmers talking. They are usually
bitching about you know how we don’t have any rain or there is too much rain. [laughter] Uh…uh…uh so
I love the natural world and I love to be with other people. I said I got into teaching in a school like this
because I wanted to know students. And I wanted to know my colleagues, not just the history
department, but the people in French or philosophy or physics. And I love the world of literature and
philosophy and history I mean creations of art and music. And the world of human culture. So I think
that my life has been fulfilled by an education because I…you…you have to take some science courses
and you have to take some social sciences; psych, sociology, polysci, econ…uh…and you have to take
some humanities and arts. And those three divisions, major branches of a college curriculum, are the
things that give you the life in the end value. And whether you go to college, my grandma didn’t but she
was a wise larded women uh, immigrant…you know those are the things that make life worth having.
And if you fulfill that, then whether you’re working on the archives or whether your working at uh,
Nachusa children’s home uh you know you’re having a useful and rewarding life. Well… so that’s why I
love a school like this. And it’s a chance to talk to you guys you know. [laughter] So that’s where I’m at.
[54:24-56:04]
JN: Can I ask, um, did your wife go to Augustana?
TT: Ya, ya she did.
JN: Did you meet her here?
TT: Ya, ya she uh…she uh graduated with a polysci major and then she did social work for a while. She
worked with migrants, trying to help them settle and get jobs. So her job uh, her company…her…it
wasn’t a company it was a non-profit organization tried to locate people in Focado, with higher migrant
workers and then hope that they get settled. And then she decided that uh, she was interested in
nursing so she went back to school…went to a community college here. The “Hawk” as it’s known.
CS: The Hawk.
TT: Ya. The hawk… and got a nursing degree. And then she went to Illinois and got advanced degrees in
nursing. Uh, and now she as I said teaches nursing at U of I. Uh…ya and both my kids went to school
here. Uh, one got a BA here in art, he’s of all things now a psychiatric nurse up in Wyoming. And the
other one, the girl who is a physical therapist who lives in New Mexico, she came here after she finished
out because she wanted to go to a big school. She didn’t think she wanted…and plus shed grown up
here on campus so she knew everything there was to know. But I tell you what, when she wanted to go
into PT she came back here and took the Science courses, and she got into several physical therapy
schools because in this case Bob Tallish uh the guy who manages med program here in biology, you
know he had a lot of conscience.
[56:04-58:10]
TT: So I hope you get to Chapel Hill. [laughter] Of course if your folks say its money you’ll have to go to
Chambana.[laughter]
JN: Well, my dad went to U of I so…
TT: Oh did he?
JN: Ya
TT: Was he an Ag (agriculture) major?
JN: Ya he was an agri-business major. Yup.
TT: Did your folks go to college? [Looks at Chris]
CS: Ya, uh…my mom went to Wellesley College out…
TT: Oh…
CS: And my dad went to Yale actually. Yup.
TT: Is that right. How did you pick Augustana?
CS: Uh…I have always loved the small school idea and um coming to campus was great just seeing that.
And then um… I talked with Coach Olsen and he kind of had a big impact in me coming here.
TT: Ya. Now, have your folks been satisfied with you being here?
CS: Ya they love it here. Ya so.
TT: What does your dad do?
CS: Uh, he uh, works at New Trier high school. He’s the superintendent there…the assistant
superintendent. So he kinda is an administrator.
TT: Does your mom work too?
CS: Ya, she works in the Chicago Public School system.
TT: Oh does she? How’s that?
CS: It’s great. I love hearing their conversations about the differences…
TT: Ya geeze [laugther]
CS: Ya you know so…
TT: Where is she, downtown?
CS: Uh, she is um its more north side. It is off of Fullerton and Western.
TT: Oh ya I know…
CS: So, it’s a pretty good neighborhood. So…
TT: Ya, you can park your car and walk…
CS: Ya…ya
TT: Does your mom work? [Talking to Julia]
JN: Um, she is a retired speech pathologist.
TT: Oh is she?
JN: She was a speech pathologist at the Nachusa…
TT: Oh that’s right…
JN: And then they closed the portion of the school where she worked. So now she’s retired and helps on
the farm now.
TT: Does she? Is she out there picking corn? Or…
JN: No…my dad is but she’s not. She’s doing…
TT: Sitting there with the headlight up…
JN: Ya…she helps like weigh trucks sometimes when they need her. Or uh, all the guys that work for my
dad…like she’ll make meals for all of them because she is a super good cook.
TT: Oh is she? Well…give me your address [laughter] I’ll be rolling…
JN: She would cook for you…she loves to cook. It’s like thanksgiving every night at um Harvest though
cuz like 10 to 15 guys to cook for. But she loves it.
[58:10-63:03]
TT: [chuckles] I’d like to know them all. I mean all four of your folks. Well you guys I really am
glad…and…and I have to tell ya….I don’t mean this cynically, but a lot of kids wouldn’t have called and
said well you know Nolan and I are pretty good friends. So uh, but I appreciate that it was very
thoughtful of you and I appreciate that Chris. But I…I know you guys are…I’m glad we could get
together.
CS: Well I know I’m planning on…tomorrow it is at four o’clock.
TT: Ya…right…right…right. Ya that[pause] you know who knows what’s going on. Uh…uh that’s when I
wish I could just say to God “now, listen, what are you up to here?” Because Nolan was a relatively
young person. I mean God could have called my name, but he said oh well he had his term. But, Nolan
had some miles left.
CS: Ya
TT: It’s tough…it’s tough. So uh, I said to my wife you know we just…some good friends we were with
over the weekend, a couple that one of their kids…his wife are getting divorced. And then we came
home and learned that uh Mike had died and…I guess you get to a point in life, and this is…you’re not
even paying for this advice. But you get to a certain point in life uh and I don’t know if it’s age or
experience or just what, but you’re not surprised by the weird and adverse things that happen. And so,
um, I mean if these kids get divorced it will be too bad, but you know X percent of marriages end in
divorce. I mean it…it’s the old why me and then you think why not me? You know, X number men have
prostate cancer, or women you know…and first why me and then why not me. But, and it’s the same
with death. I mean, part of my religious perspective is that I mean we know that we die. I mean I wasn’t
thinking of it when I was a junior in college believe me. But once in awhile somebody at school would
die. And then the whole school would…I mean…you know as you heard on the radio...well counselors
are being sent in you know. But of course in the end, no counselor can tell you what life and death
mean. I mean you have to work that out for yourself with the people you love and the people you trust
and respect. So it isn’t…it isn’t…that Nolan died or that these kids are getting divorced, its then you live
afterwards with the thought…I mean I was talking about my friend Pastor Swanson…I mean uh, you
know he is with me now in many many ways. You know when he died I thought well, he was 72 or
something ok…I wish that he lived till 102 but it’s the working out of these things in your life. And if
these kids get divorced they’ll have to work it out. And we’ll have to figure out what we’re going to do
without Nolan. Believe me, it won’t be as much fun cuz Nolan was a wise ass. [Laughter]
TT: He was fun to be around for that reason. I was uh…you gotta go and so do I but uh…the school
yearbook came to me and said uh “Tredway we need a greeting from the president.” And I was out of
greetings I mean by then I had the job twenty years and I said well uh… “its fall the squirrels are
gathering acorns on the campus. They’ll be hidden all winter and when spring comes the squirrels will
come down from the trees and they’ll find the cashes of”…well Nolan came in and said “Gosh you would
fail freshman English. This is so pathetic.”[Laughter] And I said it was a joke [laughter]…Ya bullshit he
said that’s the satire…you got your name on that man.[Pause] Ya…to the day he died last week I mean
once he said “Gosh Tredway you really laid some big eggs in your day [laughter]… 88 yearbook
woaaaahh you better burn that baby.”[deep voice]
TT: [laughter and then short silence] Well thanks you guys.
CS: I think um, in a couple weeks, were supposed to do a short follow up interview.
TT: Oh.
JN: Ya. Were gonna um transcribe what we have.
TT: Oh ok. [laughs] Good luck.
CS: And then also…is email the best way to just…
TT: Ya…here is where I hang so feel free to stop by.
CS: Sure will do
JN: Ok
TT: I’m glad to know you both
CS: Thank you, you too.
JN: Thanks
Second Interview
[0:00-4:11]
Chris Sally: So this is going to be our post interview, or our interview after…whatever you call it.
Thomas Tredway: Follow up.
Chris: Ya…we just kind of formulated some questions off of your responses in the first interview.
TT: Ok
CS: One of the first things we were thinking about was your response to um mentors you had here and
people that influenced you. So we were wondering if there were any students here who influenced you
while you were a teacher or president?
TT: Oh ya. There were quite a number, especially in my younger days when I was closer to them in age. I
guess I’d say there were many students with whom I was friends and have remained friends. The guy
who just died, Mike Nolan, was a…a friend of mine when he was a student. Uh, it began when he was
editor of the Obs [name of school news paper] and uh, he was walking along the sidewalk one day in the
fall and sunshine. And I was with some people, I don’t know who they were, it might have been
architects who were planning a building. And uh, Nolan said to me, and he was kind of a smart guy, “Are
you going to take our tuition and build that building”. [laughter] It was just on the sidewalk. Well the
architects you know they want the building built because A, they want too, and B, they’re going to get a
commission. So they look at him kinda funny and uh Nolan says [lowers voice] “I’m going after you guys
in the paper about…”[laughter] You know I said to the architects well I’m afraid of the obs, but not this
guy. I mean he was a wuss…the language of the 70s. [chuckles]
Uh, but Nolan and I became very good friends. Uh, the guy who runs the Swedish immigration center,
the great big tall kinda uh, stooped uh Swedish fella. Uh, he’s been a very good friend all my life. I mean
ever since I’ve known him. [Pauses] And that would be… shoot…well thirty five years ago. I think the
best student I’ve ever had in a history course was a guy named Al Carlson or Alan Carlson. His son went
to school here uh, and made the fatal mistake of going long scale and becoming a geologist instead of a
historian. [laughter] Uh, but he wrote a paper for me on the Spanish Inquisition. It was just…I couldn’t
believe it… I mean it was amazing with such detail and such precision and care. Um, oh, I mean I can go
on and name you know ten more guys, probably some women too that just were very very close friends
and have remained friends. I still…I just got emails the other day from a women, we had been friends
with Nolan, and was trying to cope with the fact that he died so unexpectedly.
CS: Ya.
TT: So ya there were a lot of students. I always felt that…I mean you don’t need another lecture from
me, but I always felt there is a model of education that says I know and you don’t and therefore I’m
going to tell you, so get out your pencils and you know. And while I did generally lecture in class when I
taught, I guess I felt that real education is a dialogue between uh, the instructor and the student and the
quote material. I mean the books or the subject that you are reading. And that uh really was important.
And I can honestly say that I’m sure I learned in some cases more from some students than they learned
from me.
CS: Fair enough
[4:11-8:00]
Julia Nusbaum: Um, let’s see. We were talking about how Augustana is not um…people don’t come to
Augustana for the Lutheran background as much as they did. I know you talked about…you came
because you came from a Lutheran school. And your church suggested that you come here.
TT: Mhmm
JN: And so we were wondering um if you think that effects the students…like if you think it has affected
the range of students that come here?
TT: Uh, I think…the fact that students don’t pick the college because its Lutheran at least not in the
numbers that they used to by…a million miles…I mean I think when I was a student and certainly earlier,
I discovered when I was writing the history of the college, that before the Second World War… I mean
most of students who were from out of town came here because of the church, and about a third of the
student body lived in the immediate area. That isn’t the case anymore. But that was a different world. I
mean priests and ministers and clergy had more influence on were students went to school if they went
to school at all. Most high school classes uh if a quarter of the class went to college around the time of
the Second World War that would have been a higher percentage. I mean it might have been different
out on the North Shore, but uh you know in a town like where you grew up or where I grew up, most
kids didn’t go to college. And if they did, then where they went to church probably had some influence.
For example, a lot of Catholic kids didn’t come here because they said you shouldn’t go to a Lutheran
college. Well, Mike Nolan came from a Catholic high school you know. So sometime I think in the…in the
60s, uh the influence of the church or of the clergy upon student’s college choice really began to
diminish significantly. And that meant that uh, the general academic reputation of the school, or some
uh personal relationship, like the one you sensed you might have with Ols.’ And uh you know it began to
be a more important factor than your church membership. And that’s still the case.
Now, if your question is has that had an influence on the student body, I mean let’s say student culture,
or the nature of life here. I haven’t noticed that Lutheran kids drink more or less, or are better or worse
in cross country or track or chemistry. Uh, is the student body a little more…I don’t know if this word
makes any sense to you, but worldly. That is are they less religious and…ya probably. But most
Lutherans are too you know. Before the war, in fact up until the 50s the church had a rule against
dancing. You couldn’t dance on campus. And Bergendoff, the president at the time said you know the
kids that bellyache the most about this are children and ministers. I mean they come in and grip just as
much as anybody else does. [laughter] They want to dance, I mean they go to high school and they
dance. You know, but the old Swedes thought…of course that’s gone you know. So ya…it’s different but I
think it’s a part of social change in the American culture not anything peculiar at Augustana.
JN: Do you think its boosted the academic um…
TT: stature?
JN: Ya stature of the school because people are looking at it more academically than religious…so…
TT: No…not, uh I…I know this for a fact, up un to the second world war, this school or pick another
Lutheran school I don’t know St. Olaf or Gustavo’s College. Uh, those schools admitted just about
anybody who came. But after the war the schools didn’t grow as fast as the population generally or even
the church did. And as a result the schools… this school got more selective. And uh in my student days
uh, there were as many students going on and doing graduate work, or going into med school, or getting
a masters in speech or you know getting a PhD as there probably are now. So I don’t think it’s a
academically much speedier student body than it was thirty years ago. It’s certainly not inferior, but it’s
not noticeably you know…
JN: Ya
TT: But, academically anyway
[9:20-11:06]
CS: So you wrote a book about the…you know Augustana…I’m curious to what motivated you to write
this, was it like I’m going to write, because I like to write? Or was it just…
TT: Well, that was part of, but the specific and focus part was that the school’s gonna have a 150th year
anniversary. And Bergendoff had written a history of the college up to the time he became president in
1935. And no one had…there was no history of the college after 1935. And in 1935 the school was I
don’t know 3-400 students, a faculty of uh 35. It had a theological school here on campus. And it was as I
said, either mainly Swedish Lutheran kids or some students from town. It was the depression, you
couldn’t go away to school, I mean they couldn’t afford it then. So there uh had been so many changes
that they uh, asked me would I…I mean my field was history…so would I do a history of the college. And
I got involved in it, and it turned out to be a really enjoyable task for me. I mean I spent four years
working on it and I think I learned more about the college than I wanted to know but uh [laughter]…and
certainly more than you guys want to know. But uh, it was a lot…one hesitates to say that hard research
is fun, but it was very enjoyable and very meaningful to me. SO I got into it A because I’m interested in
history, and B because the school needed a history of bringing it up to at least the time I became
president.
[11:06-17:34]
JN: What was your favorite thing that you learned about the school? Like something you didn’t know.
TT: That’s a good question. Uh, that’s an interesting question. What was my favorite thing that I
learned…[looks up at ceiling as he repeats question] Well just off the bat without you know thinking
about it overnight[pause] I guess I’d say…well to be perfectly honest I think I discovered that both the
presidents and I had an interest in that cuz I had had the job. Uh, Bergendoff and then Sorenson after
whom Sorenson hall is named. Both those presidents had far more varied and interesting careers than I
thought they would have had that I as a student or even as a faculty member thought they would’ve. For
example Bergendoff had a great many more problems than we ever thought when we were
kids…students. Money was a big issue and he wasn’t real good at raising money. And Sorenson who was
not too well liked by the students because he wouldn’t give into the pressure of the 60s and 70s for…For
example, the students wanted to own and control the dorms and Sorenson wouldn’t do that. But
Sorenson was enormously successful in some other ways although as young faculty or as students and
as I said 60s and 70s I was hanging around with students as much as I was with 70-who year old
professors. Um, uh he did a much better job than we though he did. And when you dug thorough the
records, I mean when you dig through the records; financial, student enrollment, buildings, the raising of
money, the attracting of support outside the immediate church group uh, I discovered he was far more
successful and influential on the college than I thought he was when I you know started teaching history
in Old Main.
CS: I’m curious if you ever considered um, like kinda what we’re doing like interviewing…
TT: Uh, I had to make a decision. That’s uh another good question. I had to make a decision. I was either
going to interview anybody who was alive or I was going to go by the written documents. Uh, there are
150 of boxes of materials from these two presidents down there. I mean I don’t know if you have been
back in special collections by I mean the cartons. I don’t have one here, but each in each carton will have
say 8-10 folders and each folder will have these… this is pre-Xerox…these thin tissue paper carbon
copies that people you know used to put a piece of paper in the typewriter and then carve another
piece of carbon paper under it and then you’d have this thin carbon tissue. And they saved all the
carbon tissues. I mean these guys saved every Kleenex they blew their nose on.[laughter]
CS: Ya
TT: I think I said that last time. So I spent, geez…I think 2 and a half three years…for one you have to get
the pieces of paper apart, I mean its physically just hard doing with this super thin tissue paper. And
then you gotta read it, I didn’t read every word but I’d look to see if it was something I was interested in.
And I mean it, you know I discovered stuff from…well…two girls got kicked out of school for dancing. You
know I can’t believe it. I mean ok its 1935 or something but still. And then um,[pause]…so I thought
about interviewing but I thought if I start that I’ll be doing this for ten years. So I decided my policy
would be I would go by…I would take the things people were willing to write down and if they were
willing to write it down as against just sit and throw it off like I am right now with you guys then I
thought well I’ll use that as a serious historical source.
Uh, in a couple cases I went with interviews. One was that Bergendoff, the board asked Bergendoff to
leave. I mean when we were kids you guys…I don’t mean to be patronizing….I mean I was your age
twenty or whatever. Uh, when we were young I mean we thought you know there was the holy trinity
and then there was Bergendoff who was probably up there between number two and three in the
trinity.[laughter] So I mean he was the whole shh-bang. And then for me to discover through talking to
people that well in fact he had told them…though it’s nowhere in the records cuz they had covered it up,
that he was asked to move out because there wasn’t enough money. And Bergendoff believed that the
church would uh, give him the money and the church wasn’t doing it. So they got Sorenson who went
downtown and began to raise money with business people and the result was that the college’s finances
improved measurably. Um, so in a couple of cases I relied on interviews. But for the most part I just had
to make the decision that I’m gonna read these 150 boxes of stuff and then cruise the whole obs for 4
years. I mean you try that you know…and that’s before you know they digitalized…so I’m sitting down
there and these pages are cracking apart and I had to read all the board minutes. And I finally decided I
can’t be interviewing. Now the other way around would be to interview and then go to the records from
there and that’s a… what I suppose is a methodological question, I mean which approach you should
take. And I gather Professor Todd likes interviews.
CS: Ya a combination of both is good. Ya.
TT: Well, and the other thing is that so few people were left from this period I mean uh…it would be
weird to pick the ones that managed to stay alive and then the ones who had the misfortunes to die
earlier that didn’t get to talk to me. So…Oral history is a real [pause]…it raises a number of fascinating
questions. But it’s a good question you’re asking.
[17:34-25:27]
JN: This is kind of switching the topic from the book
TT: Sure
JN: We talked a little last time about…when you were president and the fact that you had less student
interaction…like you wanted to be a teacher…and now I know today President Bahls has open office
hours. I don’t know if you did something like that, or if that would have helped student interaction?
TT: Well, I, I should explain what I meant by that. By less student interaction. I meant that once you’re
the president…well take the example I gave a minuet ago. Guy I’m still friends with is the student, the,
what do you guys call it now? The J Board threw him out of school. Ya know, it’s tough to be pals with
somebody when he sends an appeal to you. When your teaching history, uh it, you can say what you
want—I mean especially if you have tenure, eh?
JN: Yeah.
TT: I mean if you don’t like the administration or you don’t like some of your collogues or you don’t like
the “Hoppa Stoppa Ploppa Fraternity” or you don’t like the baseball team because they’re missing too
many classes in the Spring, ya know, you can say so. But when you’re in the administration. I mean you
can’t, because what you say gets taken more seriously. It isn’t Tredway up in his Western Civ class
popping off now, its “Oh, the President said.” So I learned, as best I could, and I never got real good at it,
to watch what I said, ya know. I said some real dumb things over the years. I, I mean this is more then
you want to know, but for instance, I talked to a group of old ladies up in the Westerlin Lounge and they,
it’s called the Endowment Society, and it’s a group of women who had an interest in Augustana for
whatever reasons. Perhaps they worked here perhaps their husbands worked here, maybe they went to
school here, maybe they are from the Quad Cities, I don’t know. One of them was the mother of the
mayor…of Rock Island. He was a heck of a good mayor [mayors name] the park downtown is named
after him. But I’d say, ya know, “It’s tough being responsible financially for a school in a Rust Belt town
like Rock Island.” Okay, well Rock Island is a Rust Belt town. I mean so is Pittsburg, so is Cleveland, so are
other big cities. Uh, so is Gary. Well, ya know, uh, I said that and oh geez she got pissed. Oh boy, ya
know “My boy Mark is the Mayor of Rock Island.” I don’t think I’ve ever told anybody but my wife this
story so [mumbles] and I get a scorching letter from her. “What are you calling…if you were doing a
better job as president,” ya know, “There wouldn’t be as much rust.” [laughing at the story] And well
then I had a decision to make. Did I write her back and say “Dear Mrs. S that’s my point. I’m not blaming
anybody for the rust but here it is…” Ya know, I mean FarmAll had, the tractor companies, it was the 80s
and there was a farm crisis on [gestures towards Julia]. Well, you know, I, I you try not to say D-U-Mdumb
things like that, but periodically I did and uh ya know. So on the subject of being pals with
students I learned that uh, if you’re sitting in some bar and its Friday night and the faculty are out there
and I’m out there with them. Because they were all my buddies from when I was teaching, or at least
they were the same pals I always had. But ya know what I said got taken…especially if some kid is sitting
there 21 years of age…one hopes, and legal. Happens to be at the next booth and heard me saying.
“What a crock of bullshit this is…” ya know, then he’d run back. So I learned to try to be more careful.
And that’s what I mean by I couldn’t be as…
JN: Interactive?
TT: Yeah, as interactive because I got scorched. Every time, the Obs interviewed me and every damn
“uh” that I said. I’d say “well, uh geez I don’t know, uh footballs an important sport but uh…” Well they
would print every “uh” in there. I mean, I mean I’d go home and I’d say I mean I know I’m a moron but I
mean reading it in print…whoa! I think Steve Bahls is uh, and certainly the guy before me, Sorenson. I
mean Bergendoff had so much dignity, the one before Sorenson, that he just, ya know he dripped it so,
ya know. Sorenson learned not to say much. I’d start out saying what I thought and learned in my 28
years probably wasn’t to smart. But six months into it, ya know. And ah, Steve has a different approach
he sits and but I mean I, I’d say if he were he isn’t, look if you go in there and say well why did Suzie
get—make up some silly thing—$8,000 student aid and I’ve got the same family income and the same
ACT and the same grade point, I got $6,000. He isn’t gonna tell ya. A. He doesn’t know and B. if he goes
out there and checks the records, ya know, looks at the financial aide office he’s gonna have to, uh,
cover that because he can’t be redoing all the financial aide. Ya know, or why are the “Hoppa Stoppa
Plappa’s” on probation, I mean make up some ferority, ya know? Or why is the cross country budget
not as strong as the football budget or, well ya know [waves hands as if clearing the air] I’m not picking
on any president but you can’t say, you can’t say everything. Cause, A. You don’t know and B. Your
probably under cutting the AD or the FA director, or the head of the food service or the house mother
or…well that’s a long answer but…
CS: Yeah.
TT: Yeah. No it changed, uh, it changed for me when I got the Presidents job [much more contemplative]
I’d been the Dean of the faculty and I didn’t, it changed. And it was hard for me, to be honest. Because I
missed it. I mean I missed the other. And I think I said to you guys last time, I mean when I finally got
done with the job, I had a total since of freedom. And I had a lot of fun writing the history, well, ya
know. At least this part of it was fun because now I could say what I wanted about some other poor sap
that had to do the job. And, uh, made the same, probably not as many dumb, mistakes as I made but I
could write out his mistakes I got them in a book, ya know. That’s, yeah, well anyway…[laughs] Do many
kids show up? I sometimes when Bahls is up here I go out for coffee and there will be a sign saying
President Bahls is here at ten o’clock. But there is usually nobody there.
JN: Yeah, I don’t know if anyone…
TT: Once in awhile some kid…but then Steve will say [to Tredway] well come on over lets talk and I mean
I ya know, he can say to me what he can’t publicly because he’s gotta be, he’s gotta be ya know, and he
is a lawyer to boot so he is careful by training and inclination which is, I didn’t have the benefit of that,
historians tell all [laughter] well anyway…
[25:27-29:14]
JN: Um, before we conclude the interview I just wanna know, um do you have any like favorite memory
that sticks out from Augustana from being a student? Like something that really stands out to you? Or
even, even I guess not being a student but from all your years here at Augustana, something like specific
that stands out? Just like, I know it’s really broad but…
TT: [thinking] That’s a good question too…oh boy…[silence]…I think…my favorite memory is being a
senior in the Fall of the year. The weather was like this, it was 1956 uh, the weather was like this you
could, people were burning leaves, you could, you know. I had a girlfriend, uh like I told you guys last
time, she had hours but she got one twelve o’clock a week. We were walking in Lincoln Park, I mean
across the way there and I thought “Geez I’m going to have a college degree now, assuming I don’t
screw this up—the rest of my senior year.” School was on semesters then so I had Fall Semester and
Spring. And I thought, it was the 50s, and uh, you could do what you wanted. I mean American society
was booming. Uh, and Uh I knew that my history professor would help me get into grad school. So I was
looking forward to that and I thought the most wonderful thing you could do with your life would be to
spend it in a place like this.
And I gotta be honest, I mean, I thought if I could be here that would be my favorite thing of all. I really
liked it here. But I can remember that feeling, ya know? Just feeling like I, like I was, I mean I was the
first person to go to college in my family so that was gonna be something, to graduate. And then to think
that I had done well enough that I could probably go to grad school and have somebody give me some
money to do it. But just to be here and have friends and I loved, I loved my classes. I loved history. Uh, I
can remember, I don’t know what night it was, but it must have been exactly the middle of October
because the leaves were turning and it was getting dark you know about 6:30-7, the way it does now,
and I thought “You’re the luckiest person on earth.” And uh, you know, I’ve never been sorry to spend
my life here. There are a lot of great colleges and so if I had ended up, I almost went to Illinois Wellesley,
well I would have been alright too, but this was the one, ya know I had my roots here and uh, I was very,
very happy when I got a job here. But uh, that’d be my favorite memory being a senior, history major,
oh yeah [deep voice and laughing from Julia and Chris]
JN: Was the girlfriend you were walking with, was that your wife?
TT: Oh, no. [laughing]
JN: I know you said she went here.
TT: No, she wised up. [lots of laughter] that girl, she was a great person though and we have been
friends over the years and every once in a while I’ll get a note from her, an email or something. She’s
married and lives on the South Side of Chicago. Her name was Trudy, she was a good egg. I don’t know
whatever happened. Maybe, I don’t know, she wised up. [laughter]. I think she married a lawyer. She
probably had a little more dough then I had.
[29:14-37:00]
CS: Well thank you.
TT: Yeah it was great, glade to know both of you. I wish you the best.
JN: Thank you.
TT: Yeah, you know, if you think of the REALLY great question email me and I’ll uh, one of my diseases is
the fact that I always gave longer answers then people wanted. You’ll have to forgive me for that.
JN: That’s fine.
TT: How’s it going for you guys?
CS: Its good.
TT: How much longer in the term now?
JN: Um, we’re on week 9? Week 9. [Tredway groans] Yeah, yeah…
CS: It goes by quick.
TT: Yeah. Things are breathing down your neck.
JN: Oh yeah.
TT: [pointing to Julia] You had said last time that you sort of liked these.
JN: I do. But as of right now I’m regretting that answer.
TT: All the years I was here they—I mean when I had the Presidents job—the debate was shouldn’t we
go back to semesters? Or should we stay on these quarters and that was always the debate. I mean if
you don’t like the course you get it over with but when its coming down the wire in the ninth and tenth
weeks it’s just so hairy that uh…
JN: Yeah, everything is due like right on top of each other.
TT: Yeah. You know, on semesters you can afford to horse around for two or three weeks at the front
end. Unless it’s a language or a since where you gotta do a weekly, you know, you can get away with it.
But there’s no mercy in the quarters.
JN: There isn’t, you jump right into the term.
TT: Yeah, is this your first shot at, no. Your, this is your fourth quarter here, is that right?
JN: yeah.
TT: Yeah, okay. So you got used to it last year.
JN: Yeah. After the first term I was fine.
TT: Where you in shock the first ten weeks?
JN: Well, it went, it went really fast.
TT: Yeah.
JN: And I just thought “Oh, that’s quicker than those sixteen weeks I had before.”
TT: What else are you taking now?
JN: Right now?
TT: Yeah.
JN: I’m taking my senior seminar for religion, and we have this huge like twenty page paper due.
TT: Who teaches that?
JN: Dr. Salgado is teaching mine.
TT: Oh, okay.
JN: And then I am also taking intro to religion which you are supposed to take before you start your
religion major, but I didn’t.
TT: So who teaches that?
JN: Dr. Moslener is teaching that right now. They’re switching off. It’s usually Dr. Mahn but they are
trying someone new. So, and then I am taking this class and that’s all I’m taking this term.
TT: Good. How about you [looks at Chris]
CS: Uh, I’m taking that Dinosaurs class here.
TT: Oh yeah.
CS: ‘Cause I’m really not into that physics and chemistry stuff and so that kinda gets the lab
requirements are what I need. Uh, contemporary sociology, which is the learning community class.
TT: Who teaches that?
CS: Uh, Dr. Croll. He’s pretty new here. And then Dr. Hay is the communications teacher for the 1 credit
class, so that’s the learning community class that’s connected and then this class.
TT: [to Julia] so you’ve got that one big paper.
JN: Yeah.
TT: Is there a paper connected with this project?
JN: We’ll do, um, we type up all the transcripts to this. So everything, we sit and listen to the
conversation.
TT: Take the “uhs” out. [laughter]
JN: Uh, I don’t know if we can. But um, we’ll do that and so we typed up the one before this and we’ll
type up this one. Then I think there is a presentation at the end that we have to do. And I think you are
going to be invited to it.
TT: Oh, I hope I can.
JN: I think Dr. Todd is going to contact you.
TT: Yeah, that would be great. Do you know when it is? Or…
JN: I have no idea.
TT: Day time? Night time?
JN: I think it is during our class period.
TT: How many students are in the class?
JN: Six.
CS: Yeah.
TT: So there is just two other teams.
JN: Um Dr. Sundelius was interviewed and the Horst— um, Carol and somebody Horstmann, I forgot his
name.
TT: Yeah Carol and…
JN: And Jim Horstmann?
TT: She’s my age.
JN: They interviewed her and her husband together.
TT: Jim Horsemen.
JN: Jim.
TT: Yeah, he worked in money raising here for some years.
JN: Yeah, so those are the only other two that we interviewed.
TT: Did you talk to Sundelius, you guys?
JN: No there’s, everyone’s in partners of two. So we each just got one.
TT: Yeah, he, he’s been around here a long time. He’s had a tough time because he has Parkinson’s
Disease.
JN: That’s what Dr. Todd said.
TT: He’s a good guy. Most of the time I was president we were really close friends. I think the world of
him. He sure saved my tail. [laughter]. No, I mean he really did.
TT: Yeah, well once you guys graduate ya know if you’ve got nothing better to do come back, I’ll give you
the rest of the skinny, the inside real skinny. [laughter]. Yeah. [To Julia] Well you’re headed to Carolina
you think, huh?
JN: Well, I want to. So we’ll see.
TT: I wonder when you’ll know. Probably in the spring.
JN: Yeah, well, I’ll be here next year. Um, I’m a term behind. So I’m not even applying to grad school
until next year.
TT: Yeah I think you said that.
JN: And its kind of nice it gives some time off and some time to study for the GRE without all of my other
classes breathing down my neck. And I can do that.
TT: Are you going to stay here or go home?
JN: Um, I for next year I have apartment here already.
TT: Oh. Are you by yourself or…
JN: Yeah. Myself.
TT: Whoa.
JN: I wanna be by myself.
TT: Wow.
JN: So Fall term I’m taking classes and then um I’m applying for an internship at the Putnam and it’s a
non paying internship so I’ll have to find, I work at a church right now in Bettendorf.
TT: Which church?
JN: Uh, Redeemer Lutheran.
TT: Oh, what do you do?
JN: I’m their youth intern. Like I…
TT: I did that when I was at Northwestern.
JN: I hang out with the kids and play games. Teach Confirmation on Wednesday nights.
TT: Cool. Go on…uh,
JN: I go on lock ins, yeah…
TT: I ya know, I was relatively young I mean 24 or 25 and oh dear god…
JN: Yeah staying up until three in the morning with Jr. High students….
TT: And while they’re chattering like little chipmunks.
JN: Yeah, yeah. They have a lot of energy.
TT: Oh yea.
JN: They make me feel old.
TT: They are the one group. I think I. I love little kids. I mean four and five year olds. Sometimes I
thought, shoot I should have been a kindergarten teacher. And I could have taught high school but I
don’t think I could teach jr. high.
JN: I actually really enjoy jr. high students. I really enjoy them.
TT: Oh they are so…
JN: They’re chatty but they’re fun.
TT: Yeah. Well and then you got the boy girl thing going on. You know they are just waking up to all that.
And oh geez…
JN: Just, they say such funny things. One of my students once, I asked her what, we were playing a trivia
game, and I said what did Martin Luther nail to the Wittenberg Church doors and she told me, “His I
Have a Dream speech?” [laughter]. I was like, “Oh wrong one honey.”
TT: I called. I got a five year old grandson down in New Mexico and I called him yesterday, early Sunday
morning and I said, “what are you doing Caleb?” [holds hand like he is on the phone and lowers his
voice] “Checkin the football score, the Buckeyes lost.” [laughter]. And he’s only five years old. Yeah, well
anyway. Well thanks you guys. Thanks again. I am sure glad to know you both. Let me know, if I’m
around, I can write you a letter of recommendation or something, let me know.
JN and CS: Wow, thank you.
TT: I have the stationary. [laughter] Okay, I’ll see ya.
CS: Thank you, it was great.
JN: Yes, thank you.
TT: Thanks for coming. Okay.