cb, I am not asserting anything. I am the Self Love of me. I explain how I came to this Self Love Awareness of me. No more, no less. If what I say is BS to you, no problem. But it ain't BS to me. And I'm all I've got. :-)

movingalways wrote:cb, I am not asserting anything. I am the Self Love of me. I explain how I came to this Self Love Awareness of me. No more, no less. If what I say is BS to you, no problem. But it ain't BS to me. And I'm all I've got. :-)

Again, I am afraid you are being unnecessarily defensive, or I am being unintentionally offensive. I never said anything about BS, and I have always found you to be quite sincere - at least from the posts I have read.

If you would take the time to respond to some particulars, it would help me understand better.

cb wrote:When a conscious mind experiences something that it recognizes is greater than itself, which is it more apt to "feel": Self Love of any kind, or genuine awe? If Self Love can ever be called Pure, and it "trumps" all other feeling, then that which experiences it is impervious to recognizing anything greater than itself. This seems obvious, at least to me - but perhaps this is something you have considered and rejected...?

When a conscious mind experiences something that it recognizes is greater than itself, which is it more apt to "feel": Self Love of any kind, or genuine awe?

Awe is a totally understandable response when one becomes aware of something it recognizes is greater than itself, but what I am logically presenting to you is that there can be nothing greater or lesser than you [this is why Jesus said "I and the Father are One"], which means I totally and completely accept your statement of:

If Self Love can ever be called Pure, and it "trumps" all other feeling, then that which experiences it is impervious to recognizing anything greater than itself.

If it is true that

This seems obvious, at least to me

then why would you feel awe with, or at, yourself?

To return to your first statement

When a conscious mind experiences something that it recognizes is greater than itself, which is it more apt to "feel": Self Love of any kind, or genuine awe?

The experience of love or self-love,in the experience of it,is the experience of bits and pieces,like,there's a sense of admiration,a sense of awe,a sense of melted resistance, surrender,one isn't getting around like a coiled spring, alert for danger and looking for attachments to plug in to.a sense of 'this is it',nothing else required.

It comes and goes, can't be controlled,I tried to access a supply on ebay,wasn't there. They only offer 'things' to 'own', trinkets.

I get it as warmth for being.A possibility for human being.

Huang Po's distinction must be assimilated,

'til samsara (existence) ends''for the time being'.

that existence is formatted in such and such a way,existence as format,causes/conditions, pieces/parts, thinker with a thought.Intelligibility with objects to be intelligible of.

Intelligibility can't be added to or subtracted from.One can expand one's horizons of their conditioned formatting,of their objects and how their objects exist.

Pam wrote:Awe is a totally understandable response when one becomes aware of something it recognizes is greater than itself, but what I am logically presenting to you is that there can be nothing greater or lesser than you [this is why Jesus said "I and the Father are One"]

Notice he did not say "You and the Father are One."

If it is true that

This seems obvious, at least to me

then why would you feel awe with, or at, yourself?

But I don't. I don't know where you are getting this - it seems you said this before. My answer stays the same as before:

Pam: To put it more bluntly, that you will become bored with being in awe of your imaginations of you?cousinbasil: Not sure I follow this. Any imaginations "of me" have always bored me.

I ask you this: Logically, how can there be two minds?

Are you saying there is only one mind? A single person can be of two minds! Most people are of multiple minds, often in conflict. The process of enlightenment is to harness them to run as a team, to become as one. This is rare enough.

I and the Father are One is the wisdom that exposes the lie of 'other', the lie of the belief in the inherent existence of 'self.' In truth, there is no such being or thing called 'you'. In truth, all that a man gives his attention to, all that he interprets, all that enters his consciousness, is who he is. This is why when a Son begins to interpret his world by his I am, he begins to take full responsibility for his ignorant attachment to his thoughts, ending these attachments by returning them to the Source, his Father.

The wisdom of I and the Father are One, in the bible, is revealed in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. Genesis 1 is the vision of the subject-object union of Father and Son at rest, the One Mind as a singular unit; Genesis 2 is the vision of the Father causing sentience to appear in the One Mind, the effect of which is the belief that Father and Son are separate, that there are two minds, a belief which causes the Son to interpret form as being 'out there' or as an object called 'you.' This is the appearance of fear and of awe in the Son's consciousness, and of his living within his world of conditions, his world of grasping at causes and suffering the effects of this grasping. In truth, at no time, is the Father and Son divided; in truth a man is always living of the one law of the Spirit of life, whether he realizes it or not.

The wisdom of I am, to me, is the most beneficial wisdom a man can attain. Attaining to this wisdom, a man has the wisdom to change his entire way of thinking from his false thoughts of separation/'other' to his truthful thoughts of union/I am. This is how the dividing effects of emotion can be finished in a sentient man's consciousness and how he can be left with only the sense 'covering' of Self Love for the Son and for the Father.

Are you saying there is only one mind? A single person can be of two minds! Most people are of multiple minds, often in conflict. The process of enlightenment is to harness them to run as a team, to become as one. This is rare enough.

I have given you my wisdom of the law of the Spirit of life, I am, which nullifies belief in two or multiple minds. If you reject this wisdom, please define for me the law or principle a man would follow so that he can harness his multiple minds to run as a team, to become as one.

Pam wrote:I and the Father are One is the wisdom that exposes the lie of 'other', the lie of the belief in the inherent existence of 'self.' In truth, there is no such being or thing called 'you'. In truth, all that a man gives his attention to, all that he interprets, all that enters his consciousness, is who he is.

But if all that a man gives his attention to, etc., is who he is, then it is also who everyone else is, since there is no such thing as "other." I take it you do not see this as contradictory. I think the statement "I and the Father are One" has nothing whatsoever to do with the "truth" that the self lacks inherent existence. The self requires an other so that it may have relative existence. It is simply not true that the self does not exist, as you seem to understand by listing things which constitute "who a man is." If that statement is true, then "the other" cannot be a lie, or else I would have your thoughts and memories every bit as much as you do. Yet I can easily concede that there are things which have entered your consciousness which have not entered mine; therefore, who you are cannot be identical with who I am. So there is a relative existence of the self, which would not be present if it were such that I and the Father are one were true of every man. For then we would not even have relative existence.

The wisdom of I and the Father are One, in the bible, is revealed in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. Genesis 1 is the vision of the subject-object union of Father and Son at rest, the One Mind as a singular unit; Genesis 2 is the vision of the Father causing sentience to appear in the One Mind, the effect of which is the belief that Father and Son are separate, that there are two minds, a belief which causes the Son to interpret form as being 'out there' or as an object called 'you.'

I am not a Bible expert - maybe you could supply verse numbers that support this? You have to take Christ's proclamation along with his other words. He says that he goes about "his Father's business," not about his own business. When he proclaims "I and the Father are One" he is implying "...as far as you are concerned." This is because he has surrendered his own will to that of the Father - not because he has ceased to exist in any way as separate from the Father. Even less is he claiming oneness with those around him, with the brood of vipers, the Philistines, the poor that "will always be with us," or claiming their oneness with the Father. He teaches them to pray to the Father: "Thy will be done," not our will be done because we are one with thee. You cannot surrender your will to yourself!

The wisdom of I am, to me, is the most beneficial wisdom a man can attain. Attaining to this wisdom, a man has the wisdom to change his entire way of thinking from his false thoughts of separation/'other' to his truthful thoughts of union/I am. This is how the dividing effects of emotion can be finished in a sentient man's consciousness and how he can be left with only the sense 'covering' of Self Love for the Son and for the Father.

But I do agree with this, with the way you put it here. To repeat, however, I believe that every man is sentient. I also believe that if we are talking about the same thing - which we may be - I still resist the idea that surrendering your self erases the the boundaries of the Self. The most profound love one can experience is for another. This approaches the ultimate of Unity available to an individual Child of God.

I have given you my wisdom of the law of the Spirit of life, I am, which nullifies belief in two or multiple minds. If you reject this wisdom, please define for me the law or principle a man would follow so that he can harness his multiple minds to run as a team, to become as one.

I think it has been implicit in what I have been trying to say. In my view, the Universal Father divests everything except himself and his Supremacy to the Eternal Son, thereby creating the template for - the actual possibility of Other. The Infinite Spirit between them is also assigned a distinct Personality in Triune conceptions of the Godhead. In my view, Jesus is identical with neither the Father nor the Eternal Son, these being aspects of divinity from which everything and everyone else must spring.

The principle which you request is nothing but Christian teaching. The Law you request is "Love God with your whole heart, mind, and soul; love thy neighbor as thyself." This entire Law would be superfluous if there were naught but the I AM.

The idea of multiple minds in one man has been put forth by Gurdjieff and others of the Fourth Way persuasion. It is notable that Gurdjieff is quoted as saying, "My entire teaching is nothing more than an attempt to help people become better Christians, to become true Christians."

The self requires an other so that it may have relative existence. It is simply not true that the self does not exist, as you seem to understand by listing things which constitute "who a man is." If that statement is true, then "the other" cannot be a lie, or else I would have your thoughts and memories every bit as much as you do. Yet I can easily concede that there are things which have entered your consciousness which have not entered mine; therefore, who you are cannot be identical with who I am. So there is a relative existence of the self, which would not be present if it were such that I and the Father are one were true of every man. For then we would not even have relative existence.

I answer this below when I discuss where the oneness of consciousness abides. I do not reject the relativity that is caused by sense consciousness, what I do reject is that relativity is the absolute truth of consciousness.

I am not a Bible expert - maybe you could supply verse numbers that support this?

Genesis 2, verses 2 – 7 [I've underlined the important concepts relating to the consciousness of the Son prior to the appearance of sense consciousness and have italized those concepts relating to the consciousness of the Son after the senses are caused to appear]:

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You have to take Christ's proclamation along with his other words. He says that he goes about "his Father's business," not about his own business.

Jesus' own business he left behind was his earthly business of being attached to his carnally-minded friends and family, which included his job as a carpenter, which was of the mindset of the LORD God of needing a "man to till the ground." His Father's business was of spirit only.

When he proclaims "I and the Father are One" he is implying "...as far as you are concerned."

Please give me scriptures to support this view.

This is because he has surrendered his own will to that of the Father - not because he has ceased to exist in any way as separate from the Father.

I am unclear as to what you are saying here. It is because Jesus realized he was one with the Father that he could surrender his earthly attachments, his will, to the will of the Father, he who is the cause of attachments, but who is not, himself, attached. This is the meaning of "mortality is swallowed up of life" and of "God, in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself."

Even less is he claiming oneness with those around him, with the brood of vipers, the Philistines, the poor that "will always be with us," or claiming their oneness with the Father. He teaches them to pray to the Father: "Thy will be done," not our will be done because we are one with thee.

It is true that he is not claiming oneness with their thoughts, any more than I am claiming oneness with your thoughts. This is what I was saying to Dennis in a previous post.

The oneness does not lie in the relativity of the effects of sense interpretation [the mist of the ground of the LORD God], rather, the oneness lies at the root or Cause of the thought itself, the Father and Son at rest-in-motion in heaven [image the yin yang symbol of Taosim].

This is why Jesus preached of forgiveness and of turning the other cheek and why he cried out to his Father “forgive them, for they know not what they do.” He realized that those who persecuted him were ignorant of the truth of the cause of their lust, their greed and their hatred and how to gather the effects of this cause back to its source.

Although Jesus is best known in the west for being the bearer of the wisdom of the nondual I am That, he was not the only sage bearing wisdom of this truth. From "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads:"

Two words that are of paramount importance in grasping the Upanishads are Brahman and Atman. The Brahman is the universal spirit and the Atman is the individual Self. Differing opinions exist amongst scholars regarding the etymology of these words. Brahman probably comes from the root brh which means "The Biggest ~ The Greatest ~ The ALL". Brahman is "the infinite Spirit Source and fabric and core and destiny of all existence, both manifested and unmanifested and the formless infinite substratum and from whom the universe has grown". Brahman is the ultimate, both transcendent and immanent, the absolute infinite existence, the sum total of all that ever is, was, or shall be. The word Atman means the immortal perfect Spirit of any living creature, being, including trees etc. The idea put forth by the Upanishadic seers that Atman and Brahman are One and the same is one of the greatest contributions made to the thought of the world.

One could easily replace "Brahman" with "Father" and "Atman" with "Son."

You have yet to reply to:

I have given you my wisdom of the law of the Spirit of life, I am, which nullifies belief in two or multiple minds. If you reject this wisdom, please define for me the law or principle a man would follow so that he can harness his multiple minds to run as a team, to become as one.

I have given you my wisdom of the law of the Spirit of life, I am, which nullifies belief in two or multiple minds. If you reject this wisdom, please define for me the law or principle a man would follow so that he can harness his multiple minds to run as a team, to become as one.

But I did reply:

The principle which you request is nothing but Christian teaching. The Law you request is "Love God with your whole heart, mind, and soul; love thy neighbor as thyself." This entire Law would be superfluous if there were naught but the I AM.

The idea of multiple minds in one man has been put forth by Gurdjieff and others of the Fourth Way persuasion. It is notable that Gurdjieff is quoted as saying, "My entire teaching is nothing more than an attempt to help people become better Christians, to become true Christians."

Blair, to be sentient is to suffer and to want to end this suffering. Maybe this is all we have, this collective awareness of our duality of "not good" and of our ongoing search for its transcendence. Ergo, all these words of 'wisdom' we give one another, my verbosity included.

I am not backpedalling, simply suffering a bout of weariness of 'wisdom'. For now, I'm done. Smilie

The Sunday papers run a feature in which eminent men and women are asked their opinion of the best books of the year. Not one mentioned "The Outsider", except Arthur Koestler, who went out of his way to refer to it as the "bubble of the year", "in which a young man discovers that men of genius suffer from Weltschmerz." (Colin Wilson - Postscript to the Outsider - 1967)

Weltschmerz - Mental depression or apathy caused by comparison of the actual state of the world with an ideal state. A mood of sentimental sadness.

I suffered from Weltschmerz ('depresssive realism' is another term for it I like and can relate to) much of my life, and from my earliest days. Though eventually I discovered that alcohol and nicotine helped me to rather comfortably and happily ride through the wall-to-wall mental arteriosclerosis, disconnectedness, and general human coldness and madness that was all around me. But eventually there came a time (age 36) when these 'tools' no longer worked and I put them aside. Whereupon there came a total breakdown and psychic transformation which was the beginning of my figuring it all out, along with the eventual development of a working solution for the ongoing human dilemma. I can't help but wonder if Colin Wilson ever figured it all out. I read somewhere that he said it might take him another 20 years to do so. Though I really have my doubts as to whether he ever did.

Bob Michael wrote:Though eventually I discovered that alcohol and nicotine helped me to rather comfortably and happily ride through the wall-to-wall mental arteriosclerosis, disconnectedness, and general human coldness and madness that was all around me. But eventually there came a time (age 36) when these 'tools' no longer worked and I put them aside.

Out of the way dive, with a good jukebox. Decent pool table and dart board. A little beer, say four pints, work wonders for me. A good cigar blends right in. Somebody walks in who may have access to a joint, even better ;-)

Re-enter the bar with a new outlook. Tip the bartender well and all is good.

PS - Don't stare at other customers. That goes for Genius Forums, too.

For a few like me, "the extras" of life's goodies do me no harm. Just don't get so crocked one need call the girlfriend, a taxi cab or spend the night in jail to face The Man at the courthouse.

Jailhouse urinals, I'm told, are mighty cold. Big boys will love you all night long. The madness all around you.

Bob Michael wrote:I can't help but wonder if Colin Wilson ever figured it all out. I read somewhere that he said it might take him another 20 years to do so. Though I really have my doubts as to whether he ever did.

Wilson was however sharp enough to realize that "evolution has been trying to create a human being capable of travelling faster than sound. Capable, that is, of a seriousness, a mental intensity that is completely foreign to the average human animal."

But sharpness and the ability and willingness to totally die to the 'self' and thereby become one with the Infinite, and consequently fully subservient to it, are two entirely different things. And this is what sets the true 'Knight of Faith' far apart from the all-too-many shallow and superficial religionists, philosophers, theologians, psychologists, gurus, geniuses, and half-baked 'enlightened' men.