The world's best mages versus a rather arrogant race (and I say that despite playing one one) who, despite having been so foolish as to charge headlong into the use of Fel magic, despite having seen what it did to the Orcs, curse their High Elven cousins for not having been that stupid, still proclaim themselves to be the most knowledgeable and proficient of magic wielders.

I'll place my bets on the Kirin'Tor.

Azeroth most powerful mortal mage, yes. But if power would be the only reason someone wins a fight, we'd be dead by now. Even Thrall got captured by some no name Alliance marines.

---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 10:12 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Thaladhrun

Why would morals change based on the fact that it's a video game?

Because Azeroth =/= Earth? Dunno. \

Originally Posted by Socialhealer

he wants to play ele shaman but it's always fucked up, so it's a state of permanently insulted, i understand that feeling as an ele shaman.

There were countless small battles on Azeroth (battlegrounds [RESOURCES!]), Outland (before and behind the portal, quests in every area where we fight the opposite faction) and Northrend in the Fjord and Tundra. They were at war and hostile to each other... and unlike Combatbulter said, Varian didnt declare war (full out war with grant battles) after the Wrathgate, Garrosh did it in Cataclysm.

If you are going to apply morals to the setting, the basis for justifying them won't change from one scenario to the other, since most ethical systems are not, in principle, justified on the basis of context-specific considerations.

The blood elves are just as skilled in the arcane arts as the Kirin Tor.

Some may well be, but the quotation that people seemed to agree with was that somehow the Kirin Tor were going to be at the mercy of the Blood Elves/Sunreavers or the Horde. There's no reason whatsoever for presuming that.

Originally Posted by Combatbulter

Blood elves are biologically and physiologically high elves.[/U][2] Courtesy of their exposure to fel magic (the practice of which spread in a similar fashion to the orcs own exposure to the substance, tainting even those in its proximity who chose not to dabble in it), the eyes of the sin'dorei now produce an emerald glow.

The quotation however, defeats itself. There are physiological/biological differences; the green eyes and generally darker hair/skin hues, in the same way that the Orcs of Orgrimmar are physiologically/biologically different to their Mag'har cousins who refused to drink the blood of Mannoroth.

Originally Posted by Combatbulter

Few of these elves know of Kael'thas' pact with Illidan, and many would be horrified if they discovered it. Draining magic from small mana-bearing vermin is a far cry from draining magic from demons.

Meaning most of the blood elves never actively siphoned fel power, they eyes simply turned green because a few did.

I'm not so sure about that. The Sin'dorei are too young and their foray into all things Fel too recent for there to be any descendants with green eyes, as opposed to Orgrimmar Orcs, and there's not a great evidence to support Mag'har having turned green on account of Grom et all having done so via demon blood, so i'm not sure how High Elves would suddenly find themselves with green eyes for being near a source of Fel.

---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 09:24 PM ----------

Originally Posted by UcanDoSht

Azeroth most powerful mortal mage, yes. But if power would be the only reason someone wins a fight, we'd be dead by now. Even Thrall got captured by some no name Alliance marines.

I believe in lore, Thrall was captured due to be unprepared for an Alliance ambush.

I reckon if Thrall was aware of the enemy at hand he could probably summon an earthquake or two to destroy an entire army; this being the same Orc who with the help of two others, stopped the world from collapsing in on itself with the temporary destruction of the World Pillar.

"A writer who says that there are no truths, or that all truth is 'merely relative,' is asking you not to believe him. So don't." - Roger Scruton

Originally Posted by Wells

I see no point in compelling integration. If you can't make your society sufficiently enticing to integrate willingly, then perhaps its not so superior.

The quotation however, defeats itself. There are physiological/biological differences; the green eyes and generally darker hair/skin hues, in the same way that the Orcs of Orgrimmar are physiologically/biologically different to their Mag'har cousins who refused to drink the blood of Mannoroth.

Indeed. Not to speak of the psychological differences fel induces.

I'm not so sure about that. The Sin'dorei are too young and their foray into all things Fel too recent for there to be any descendants with green eyes, as opposed to Orgrimmar Orcs, and there's not a great evidence to support Mag'har having turned green on account of Grom et all having done so via demon blood, so i'm not sure how High Elves would suddenly find themselves with green eyes for being near a source of Fel.

I doubt Blizzard will canonise that statement. It has too many implications for the use of fel. How would any faction tolerate its use if it could corrupt simply by someone proximate using it? My guess is it was a rather opportunistic move to make it seem like the blood elves on Azeroth remained oblivious to what was really going on and set up their path for "redemption", and also to justify ridding of Kael'thas at some point.

Not sure if I'd agree that they're too young, though. It's been a good 10+ years now since TBC, and they are more prone to magic-induced evolution than orcs if their ancestry is any indication.

I guess this is why they issued an official de-canonisation of the WRPG.

Morality would change based on it being a totally different world from ours. Not to mention the fact that every player character in the game past 10th level (and mostly way prior to then) is a vigilante mass murderer.

Some may well be, but the quotation that people seemed to agree with was that somehow the Kirin Tor were going to be at the mercy of the Blood Elves/Sunreavers or the Horde. There's no reason whatsoever for presuming that.

They wouldn't be at their mercy ,though they sure would have to use all their resources to withstand what Lor'themar is about to unleash.

The quotation however, defeats itself. There are physiological/biological differences; the green eyes and generally darker hair/skin hues, in the same way that the Orcs of Orgrimmar are physiologically/biologically different to their Mag'har cousins who refused to drink the blood of Mannoroth.

It is in no way enough to consider them a different race. Do you have a canon source for the different skin colors, the only time I recall it was mentioned was in the rpg books, which are non canon.

I'm not so sure about that. The Sin'dorei are too young and their foray into all things Fel too recent for there to be any descendants with green eyes, as opposed to Orgrimmar Orcs, and there's not a great evidence to support Mag'har having turned green on account of Grom et all having done so via demon blood, so i'm not sure how High Elves would suddenly find themselves with green eyes for being near a source of Fel.

Q: How did the blood elven fel eye glint become so widespread? The Warcraft Encyclopedia suggests that Rommath only taught the blood elves of Azeroth about how to siphon arcane magic, as most of the populace would likely be "horrified" if they knew the true extent of Kael’s dealings with Illidan.
A: The situation regarding blood elf eyes is, in fact, extremely similar to that of the green skin of orcs: just being around heavy use of fel magic turned the eyes of the blood elves green. You could be the most pious of priests or most outdoorsy of Farstriders, chances are, if you were a high elf in Quel’Thalas or Outland following the Third War, you were around fel energies, and your eyes would turn green. Like the orcs’ skin color, such an effect would take a very long time to wear off. Fel magic works a bit like radiation in this sense; it permeates the area and seeps into anything in the vicinity. Anything near a source of fel magic shows signs of slight corruption, it just so happens that high elves and orcs manifest it in a very visual way.

He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

Nor am I sure how you have extrapolated from that that they continue to have any special talent in the arcane. That quote describes the Eredar in the abstract. It does not state whether on balance those more inclined to the arcane remained on Argus or sided with the minority who fled from the path the Man'ari adopted.

You're quite right; so why then, is it fair play to assume that the Draenei do not have masters of the Arcane among them? Why then, presume the Sin'dorei are better, just because it shows more often? Metzen himself has said the Draenei were "a train wreck", so it is not surprising that the extent of their power and prowess goes unrepresented given the race itself is deemed, for now, a failure (something which the next expansion may change I reckon)

Originally Posted by Thaladhrun

Again, the basis being what? They don't seem very masterful at anything other than self-righteousness.

And that is your opinion. It is true that in WoW, they are presented primarily as a Holy race, but their connection to magic and their mastery of it cannot be forgotten; not least because the lore says it's there. Plenty goes on in lore and novels that we do not see in WoW.

Originally Posted by Thaladhrun

Where are you getting the "millions of years old" figure from? What are the visible hallmarks of their supposed "greatness"? They were butchered by the orcs and have spent most of their existence running from the Eredar using borrowed Naaru tech. True, it was the Legion that fuelled the Orcish genocide but what, exactly, did the draenei have to stop it? Where, precisely, are their great magi? I'll answer that: they're called Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. If they are millions of years old, its another sign of Blizzard's complete idiocy in appreciating the significance of these numbers.

The age figure/evolutionary history for the Draenei I saw some time ago, i'll have to pick it up. Regarding your main point however, they are refugees and their former world was destroyed; what great legacies and demonstrations of their legacy would you like to see? If Quel'thalas was destroyed by the Scourge, and the Sin'dorei had fled to another part of the world, would there be grounds to ridicule? I doubt it. What's more, the Legion is a far greater enemy than the Scourge, and has been responsible for the destruction of thousands of planets and races; that any Draenei survived at all, is much more respectable than the Sin'dorei, who claim all their prowess in magic, having almost been wiped out by the Scourge; a threat that was created by the Legion in the first place.

Originally Posted by Thaladhrun

"Arrogant" because, what? Unlike the Kirin Tor? Hah. They turned to fel because they perceived they had few alternatives. Their high elven cousins are cursed, not because they did not consume fel, but because they are perceived to have betrayed their homeland for the Alliance. Who, besides them, is more proficient or knowledgeable in the arcane? The Highborne relics? The fleeing draenei rats? Based. On. What.

Ah, but not all Sin'dorei did not perceive few alternatives; that any did perceive alternatives puts to rest any notion of necessity behind the use of Fel. What's more, the High Elves were even so moral as to turn the other cheek and make amends with the Alliance; more than can be said for the Sin'dorei. As to who is greater, i'll judge that primarily by what they survive, and frankly the wrath of the Legion is ten times greater than that of the Scourge or any Forest Trolls.

I

Last edited by Austilias; 2013-01-10 at 09:42 PM.

"A writer who says that there are no truths, or that all truth is 'merely relative,' is asking you not to believe him. So don't." - Roger Scruton

Originally Posted by Wells

I see no point in compelling integration. If you can't make your society sufficiently enticing to integrate willingly, then perhaps its not so superior.

Morality would change based on it being a totally different world from ours. Not to mention the fact that every player character in the game past 10th level (and mostly way prior to then) is a vigilante mass murderer.

It depends on what moral system you're speaking of. Kantian ethics, for instance, are formulated in such a way that they could even be applied to space aliens, because their criterion is capacity for rationality. Same with utilitarian ethics.

It depends on what moral system you're speaking of. Kantian ethics, for instance, are formulated in such a way that they could even be applied to space aliens, because their criterion is capacity for rationality. Same with utilitarian ethics.

But aren't we specifically discussing war crimes? For example, fire mages are a walking war crime if you try to apply our "how war should be fought" morality to the game. Sure, you can apply very basic morality to the game, but when you start getting into more nitpicky things like war crimes, the comparisons will quickly fall apart.

Well, what did he expect from being part of one of the two factions which are at constant war? And the Blood Elven presence in Northrend was so slim, I dont even remember any quest of them anymore. Honestly, it looks like he didnt even have an intention to take revenge on Arthas for what he did to his nation.

Blaming the faction which brought them into the Horde for having to fight is credulous. Sylvanas offered them help....[COLOR="red"]

---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 07:01 PM ----------

Honestly, Patch 5.1 seems to imply that Lor'themar currently regards all of the Horde as fairweather friends at best and racists who don't care about spilling the blood of his already diminished people at worst. Lor'themar does refuse to say anything against Sylvannas when she looks to him for support in the opening scenes of Tides of War, but to put it in perspective Garrosh is asking for a large number of Forsaken and Sin'dorei soldiers for his assault on Theramore Island. Sylvannas is growing very exasperated with Garrosh by this point; he's even more wasteful with Forsaken lives in the Gilnean War than he is with Blood Elven lives in 5.1, after all, plus he decomissions and mocks the Forsaken's greatest inventions and weapons; he's more than willing to use world-breaking weapons (AKA Mana Bombs and Lava Giants) but he's not willing to use world-shattering weapons that bolster the ranks of a non-orcish race.

She turns to Lor'themar, fishing for his support in denying the Warchief his request for soldiers but he ignores her. Sylvannas bullying Lor'themar into aiding the Northrend campaign certainly strained his personal relationship with Sylvannas, I'm sure, but its never implied that the ties between the Blood Elves and the Forsaken is any worse for wear; in reality, the only race that Garrosh treats with more disrespect than the Blood Elves and Forsaken is the trolls.

What's more, the Legion is a far greater enemy than the Scourge, and has been responsible for the destruction of thousands of planets and races; that any Draenei survived at all, is much more respectable than the Sin'dorei, who claim all their prowess in magic, having almost been wiped out by the Scourge; a threat that was created by the Legion in the first place.

Like the orcish horde nearly wiped out the Draenei, which is just another creation of the burning legion.

Ah, but not all Sin'dorei did not perceive few alternatives; that any did perceive alternatives puts to rest any notion of necessity behind the use of Fel. What's more, the High Elves were even so moral as to turn the other cheek and make amends with the Alliance; more than can be said for the Sin'dorei. As to his greater, i'll judge that primarily by what they survive, and frankly the wrath of the Legion is ten times greater than that of the Scourge or any Forest Trolls.

The blood elves were turning the other cheek as well negotiating with the Alliance until they realized they were spying on them and occupied ley line nexi.

If you judge a race with what they survived then the Draenei are a rather poor example, since they never faced the legion directly in combat ,in 25.000 years all they did was run, until the legion converted a hunter gatherer society, which nearly destroyed them. The mortal races on Azeroth on the other hand did beat the legion numerous times.

He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

You're quite right; so why then, is it fair play to assume that the Draenei do not have masters of the Arcane among them? Why then, presume the Sin'dorei are better, just because it shows more often? Metzen himself has said the Draenei were "a train wreck", so it is not surprising that the extent of their power and prowess goes unrepresented given the race itself is deemed, for now, a failure (something which the next expansion may change I reckon)

I will assume as much when Blizzard codifies it into its lore. The quotes you gave refer to the Eredar, not the draenei in their current shape and form. Out of curiosity, what did they have to teach the Kirin Tor? I agree that they're a train wreck and that Blizzard represents most races (e.g. Naga and indeed, the blood elves) poorly in the game.

And that is your opinion. It is true that in WoW, they are presented primarily as a Holy race, but their connection to magic and their mastery of it cannot be forgotten; not least because the lore says it's there. Plenty goes on in lore and novels that we do not see in WoW.

It can be forgotten if the Man'ari are comprised of those Eredar who were talented in the arcane whilst the preponderance of the refugees has since instead focused on Light worship. I grant that they may maintain some interest in the arcane, yet when compared to the Highborne, how exactly does it manifest? If the novels contain something additional, what is it?

what great legacies and demonstrations of their legacy would you like to see?

They did not even have any on Draenor, to speak of. I can forgive them for disappearing into insignificance on Azeroth.

If Quel'thalas was destroyed by the Scourge, and the Sin'dorei had fled to another part of the world, would there be grounds to ridicule? I doubt it. What's more, the Legion is a far greater enemy than the Scourge, and has been responsible for the destruction of thousands of planets and races; that any Draenei survived at all, is much more respectable than the Sin'dorei, who claim all their prowess in magic, having almost been wiped out by the Scourge; a threat that was created by the Legion in the first place.

Their prowess is more diversified than the arcane, but that is a key focus seeing as how first the Well of Eternity, and then the Sunwell, altered their evolution. The Scourge only got as far as it did due to Dar'khan's own betrayals, and the Scourge's use of tactics that deprived the high elven rangers of their natural fighting grounds. The draenei also had the Naaru's assistance, so no, it isn't necessarily more impressive or "respectable" than for a race which had its magical water supply cut out entirely.

Ah, but not all Sin'dorei did not perceive few alternatives; that any did perceive alternatives puts to rest any notion of necessity behind the use of Fel. What's more, the High Elves were even so moral as to turn the other cheek and make amends with the Alliance; more than can be said for the Sin'dorei.

Implying that turning the other cheek is "moral". As for those sin'dorei who did perceive alternatives, I do wonder what you mean.

The new Blue dragonflight boss who take Malygos place is now a mortal... And he with Jaina so..

Except he's not a boss because the Blue Dragonflight has basically dissolved by the end of Tides of War and by the end Kalecgos just formally announces it; it had happened long before he admits it to himself.

Also, Kalecgos does not have the powers of an Aspect anymore, so while he is a very skilled magic user he's nowhere near as powerful as Malecgos was. And he's dead. Because of heroes like us.

Honestly, I can't see many (see: any) Blue Dragons coming to Kalecgos's aid should he involve himself; after all, they left him when he was still their Aspect. Why would they concern themselves in Alliance affairs of all things? Not to mention that Kalecgos is noticeably absent during the Purging of Dalaran. It is entirely possible that he does not approve of Jaina's actions in Dalaran.