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I'd disagree with that. They already had those scenes with Hayate beforehand, and it's never implied that they're faking in those or anything. And there were certainly hints of a deeper nature for what they were doing.

I'd disagree with that. They already had those scenes with Hayate beforehand, and it's never implied that they're faking in those or anything. And there were certainly hints of a deeper nature for what they were doing.

I wouldn't.

I did NOT like the Wolkenritter in A's.

The only character that was sympathetic to me in A's was Hayate (and later Reinforce). None of the other new characters were.

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Again, Raiser, unless they actually begin to be protrayed like that, I don't see why I should view them as such when they haven't really been all that sympathetic. Any arguments for them are pretty much entirely fanon at this point.

They are afflicted with a virus that makes them kill. As such, I view them as someone with cancer or aids or some other disease trying to do what they need to in order to live.

One can still view them as sympathetic, and yet still view their actions as unacceptable. I do. Those aren't mutually exclusive positions. Sympathetic means you understand why they do the things they do, and understand that it is quite possible for you to do the same things in the same circumstances.

As far as the TSAB being a powderkeg? Ha. Why do you get people doing bad things? Because they can't find a place in society. The TSAB has been shown to really try to give people a place in society, and thus why I can see the organization being favorable to the people.

You forget that that was exactly Regius's motivation for doing what he did. The Navy snapped up all the talented mages, leaving the ground forces greatly under powered. That's why he resorted to the Combat Cyborg project.

Believe me, I have NOT forgotten about Regius. Actually, now that I have tried to see things from his point of view, I have a greater respect for him.

Now that I have taken off the goggles I used to look at Nanoaverse with and that I have come back from long weeks watching Legend of Galactic Heroes, I can now understand all too well why people like Nighty are so bothered by the rampant nepotism in the Bureau and why the blatant favoritism toward mages have been bothering me for a while. Especially when characters like Hayate have not been shown doing actions that are worth of their brass.

Because when I see it through a sociological point of view, it's a rather fucked up Bureau.

It's an ideology that has only survived because it's a fictional world.

Exactly my opinion. Someone like Masamune Shirow or anyone with a grasp on how societies can work and fail would be more than happy to write a story about its eventual fall if he have been given the chance.

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Though amusingly enough, Hayate herself is aware of the system, and even calls herself someone who's rank is only for show.

Poor girl, the more genre savvy character is also the one who gets the least screentime of the trio.

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

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Originally Posted by Keroko

Speaking of this... I've been paging through Force again, and I just so happened to stumble upon a quote from Fortis. Chapter 8, page 22 "We can move without the virus controlling our actions."

So... they know of a way to 'beat the virus' so to say and live without having to kill. Their current killing is therefore not the cause of the virus, but their own volition.

You're partially right. Remember, the "cure" they have is only a partial one. They still have to kill in order to live, but they can generally control when and who they kill. All that matters is they have bodies around when the time comes. What is happening to Touma currently is what they can protect against (he doesn't recognize anyone and is going into self-destruction mode, just how Fortis described earlier).

Chapter 8, page 17: "In order to maintain functional sanity and life, it is necessary that you continue killing. An EC-infected person cannot live without killing."

They have a partial cure, but as Fortis said, they'll turn into a lump of flesh as a result of their regeneration going out of control if they don't. "You may resist with the mindset that murder is a crime. However you'll get used to it. We did, too."

Edit: As far as the TSAB goes, I don't see why it would fail. It could technically work in real life, too.

You're partially right. Remember, the "cure" they have is only a partial one. They still have to kill in order to live,

Uh-huh, and where does it say they still have to kill to live? Because, y'know, that sorta, kinda qualifies as the virus controlling their actions. Hell, your entire argument depends on the virus controlling their actions, an argument Fortis just shot to pieces.

Fortis explains a person infected needs to kill to live at page 18, then at page 22 elaborates that the Hucks don't. Telling Touma he will get used to killing is because that's what the Hucks do.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo

Edit: As far as the TSAB goes, I don't see why it would fail. It could technically work in real life, too.

Ideally, yes. But this isn't an ideal world, and not everyone is ready to swallow being effectively ruled by a few gifted people. Ditto for gun control.

Kaijo's right. Fortis says that those infected with the virus need to kill to live or else they become lumps of flesh.

All the Huckebein are infected with the virus, so that applies to all of them.

Fortis says they have a method of making sure the virus doesn't control them. This is likely to mean they can avoid going on uncontrollable killing frenzies. We can see such a thing going on in Thoma's case where he is not in control of his actions.

We also don't know what this method is. I imagine most think of it as some sort of medical injection, but perhaps their method is killing on a regular basis?

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Uh-huh, and where does it say they still have to kill to live? Because, y'know, that sorta, kinda qualifies as the virus controlling their actions. Hell, your entire argument depends on the virus controlling their actions, an argument Fortis just shot to pieces.

Fortis explains a person infected needs to kill to live at page 18, then at page 22 elaborates that the Hucks don't. Telling Touma he will get used to killing is because that's what the Hucks do.

Fortis: "When there is a request or bounty involved, when weapons are drawn against us or when someone interferes with our goal, when infected people such as us need to do so in order to survive, we will exterminate them without hesitation."

Fortis is rattling off a list, and he specifically mentions "infected" and counts it as a separate list item. I don't know how much clearer than that you can get, unless you want to go to the original Japanese. Maybe ask Nagumo to take a look at that section. When infected need to kill in order to survive, they will do so.

Hell, Touma himself immediately asked about that: "In order to survive? What do you mean by that?" and that's when Fortis further clarified than an EC-infected has to kill to maintain sanity and life, or else their regeneration goes out of control and they become lumps of flesh.

Or else, why did Veyron presumably kill those nuns? He didn't have to, and Fortis said they don't kill unnecessarily. Veyron could have intercepted Touma before he reached the church, or just watched and waited. Instead, he told Touma that he had to kill because Touma was late.

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Ideally, yes. But this isn't an ideal world, and not everyone is ready to swallow being effectively ruled by a few gifted people. Ditto for gun control.

Hello to every dictatorship ever? The UK and Japan do fine with gun control (and they aren't the only ones). You'd be surprised what people will live under. Hell, the Egyptians lived under their dictator for 30 years, and they only revolted due to rising unemployment and food prices. Keep your subjects happy and well-fed, and you can rule however you like for as long as you like.