"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36

May 16, 2008

The 'Pre-Tribulation Rapture' is a Scam and a Hoax

September 18, 2009 UPDATE
This morning while reading John, this verse jumped out at me:I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. John 17:15

Many of you know that the well-known pretribulation rapture view began in 1830 and that no Christian theology book before that date taught such a concept. You also know that all of the earliest pretrib rapture developers including John Darby stated that it was then a brand-new idea. Aware that the new escapism was not explicitly stated in the Bible, they initially based the same view on only types and symbols, a practice that is still popular today.

Interestingly, it took the earliest British developers several decades to decide which symbolism in the book of Revelation was the best basis for their pretrib. Hoping to be raptured away before the greatest amount of tribulation in that book, they finally settled on the 'Philadelphia' feeling accompanied by the 'come hither' sound. Before the same novel view came to America and was popularized by means of marginal notes in the Scofield Reference Bible, it had simmered on the coal stove back burners of two tiny British sects: the Irvingites (followers of London preacher Edward Irving) and the Plymouth Brethren (the best known teacher of which was Darby).

The recently uncovered 19th century plot to quietly change early 'rapture' documents in order to steal credit for pretrib away from the Irvingites and falsely credit Darby with it (monumental and brazen revisionism which somehow had been overlooked by all books before 1995) is the focus of my book 'The Rapture Plot' - but I dare not spoil your reading by revealing the name of the plotter!

Speaking again of Scofield of Bible fame, CIS (his initials) has become a CSI of his recently uncovered misdeeds (lack of theological training, money fraud, abuse of his wife and children, jail termfor forgery, unScriptural divorce and remarriage, self-conferred D.D., and money greed!).

For 1800 years everyone had tied together I Thess. 4:17's 'caught up' with the 'day of the Lord,'a day commencing at the great tribulation's end. Even Darby and Scofield saw a posttrib DOL (see CIS's Rev. 19 notes on this 'day').

After posttribs began publicizing the unBiblical 'divorce' of the rapture from the DOL, early 20th century pretribs, unwilling to abandon their 'golden goose,' were seen desperately stretching forward the DOL and tying it with their already-stretched-forward rapture.

To get around the predictable criticism of this double stretch a few pretrib desperados (reportedly echoing SRB consulting editor William Pettingill) began claiming that II Thess. 2:3's 'falling away' was really Bible 'code' for a pretrib rapture! However, since they'd admitted that the 'gathering' (two verses earlier) refers to their rapture, they were actually saying that the rapture (vs. 3) must happen before the rapture (vs. 1) can happen - a 'truth' that only desperate, self-deluded pretribs can embrace!

Much of the pretrib desperation in recent years has focused on their view's short history - that is, frantically trying to either cover it up or muddy it up. After my 1975 book 'The Incredible Cover-up' detailed pretribism's 1830 birth, pretrib leader John Walvoord's 1979 book 'The Rapture Question (Revised)' turned to early church fathers in order to squash the 1830 claim.

Walvoord, however, could find only three sources (Clement; the Didache; and the Constitutions of the Holy Apostles), and he admitted that pretrib wasn't actually taught in them but only the sort of 'any-moment imminence' that can support pretrib! The 'imminence' he supposedly found there rested only on warnings to 'watch' because Christ will return 'speedily' at an 'unknown hour'! But right after the 'watch' quotation, Walvoord chopped off the rest of the passage which was posttrib through and through - and other pretribs including Pentecost and Stanton have slavishly echoed Walvoord and chopped off the same quotation at the same spot!

Is a 'watch' command proof that an event is imminent? II Pet. 3:12 says we should be 'looking for' the 'day of God' which premills admit is at least 1000 years ahead of us. If a pregnant woman can be 'looking for' a birth while expecting labor pains first, then believers can look for Christ while expecting tribulation pains first.

Nowadays the desperados are out-Walvoording Walvoord and finding 'proof' for pretrib rapture teaching in all kinds of pre-1830 writers just because the word 'rapture' (or the concept) was used - as if pretrib has a monopoly on 'rapture' usage!

If you are interested in the long-covered-up (but recently uncovered) facts about the bizarre history of the pretribulation rapture view (which celebrated its 177th birthday not long ago), see my bestselling, 300-page book 'The Rapture Plot' (via Armageddon Books online which has an amazingly great price) which has been publicly endorsed by a galaxy of leading Christian scholars, none of whom has had an axe to grind either for or against a pretrib rapture. (All of my book royalties, BTW, have always gone to a nonprofit group and not to any individual.)

Remember - The endtimes view that features 'Millions Missing' after a pretrib rapture was totally missing from all theology books and all organized churches prior to 1830!

--- end ---

A reader just emailed saying that Mr. MacPherson loves to hear from readers and his email address is wandave1226@hotmail.com

46 Comments:

Anonymous said...

I too am familiar with Dave MacPherson's unique, history-revealing writings which can benefit Christians everywhere. He has recently announced that he now has some lung problems and has to move away from his home in Utah. Moreover he has stated that he and his wife are now looking for an inexpensive and tiny house or cabin in some quiet western spot, preferably on a small lake, and that he will be most happy to dedicate some future writing of his to anyone who can arrange what they are looking for. To see how leading scholars value his research, Google "Scholars Weigh My Research." It would be a shame if he were unable to continue his much needed historical diggings. Kiko

I have been appreciative of your research and much of the information you are providing on your blog. However, Mr MacPherson doesn't quite have all his facts straight.

Here is a quote from 373 A.D.: "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373)...

I have more info on my blogspot, http://rapturerevelation.blogspot.com/

I am compelled to respond to Jocelyn and add that MacPherson's "Deceiving and Being Deceived" on Google thoroughly analyzes the claims for Pseudo-Ephraem and Morgan Edwards. Dr. Paul Alexander, whose book inspired Jeffrey, referred only to "Pseudo-Ephraem" and not to the well-known Ephraim the Syrian. (When scholars find an ancient manuscript that resembles the writing of a well-known person but can't be sure who the author really is, they put "Pseudo" before his name. It is amazing that Jeffrey was so careless and that others, merely repeating him, have unwittingly muddied the waters!) Dr. Alexander also revealed that "taken to the Lord" refers only to the Catholic doctrine of "beatitude" (see the Catholic Encyclopedia) which has to do with earthly deeds and NOT being raptured off the earth! Dr. Alexander also summarized, in outline form, the chronological order of endtime events found in the same manuscript which shows that the same ancient writer looked for only the final Second Coming which FOLLOWS the great tribulation! In fact, the same ancient writer said that the only thing that was "imminent" in his view was the arrival of the Antichrist, and he saw the Christian Church on earth during the same great tribulation! It's tragic that a few promoters will do anything to keep hanging on to their 178-year-old theory! Kiko

Thanks for the comment, Joycelyn, and thanks for the clarification, Kiko.

Obviously, this is a HOT topic and I myself have challenged friends to show me pre-trib rapture scriptures as I don't see them in the Bible.

Some Christians avoid discussing this topic, saying it's not important. However, I think it is very important to have a clear understanding so we don't get deceived by a fake rapture, which is in the works.

Whatever the future holds, the cry of our heart should be "YES LORD! May Your will be done and Your Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven" as we watch and pray, looking to the Lord Jesus Christ each day, every day.

I really do not care what any historic theology books taught or did not teach. What matters is what the bible teaches. The pre tribulation rapture is clearly taught throughout the bible - both in the Tanach ("old" covenant) and the Bri't Hadasha ("new" covenant)

I would not care if 100% of the theology books today taught against the pre-trib rapture. The bible clearly teaches it and that is enough for me.

It is funny how those who claim the path is narrow and todd bentley is demon possessed care about how many theologians (who may have been deceivers like bentley) taught something or not.

Those who care more about what theologians taught or did not teach than what the bible teaches is making themselves to be false teachers.

The doctrines taught in the bible are not popular and to decide what is right or wrong based on popularity of how many taught them is what makes for false teachers and false doctrines.

Hi, what could be more clear of Jesus our Savior in Matthew chpt 24:15-24that we would need to flee to the mountains? and that Jesus refers to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him inderstand:Daniel chpts 9-12 is even supportive of when you see the sacrilege in the santuary.check Zechariah 13:9/KJV for believers to be here: "I will bring 'the' third through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my eople: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Kiko & Marie are aligned with the True Word of God to be on the side of the correct. The individuals espousing the false doctrine [AKA: lies] of the Rapture THEORY [which it has been called by even Christian scholars for decades!) are on thin ice doctrinally & this is very dangerous (including Tim LaHaye & others, who are trying to sell their books for $, sorry, Truth is Truth). There is absolutely NO PRE-TRIB "rapture" taught in the Bible - never has, never will be. The word "rapture" itself is not even in the Scripture, it is a name concocted by men basically as a result of John Darby hearing a mentally-ill woman named Margaret McDonald n the 1830's.

The first "christ" coming is the anti-Christ (Lucifer, Satan, Apollyon, Abaddon, "Abomination of Desolation/Desolator"-Daniel), to "en-rapture" his deceived to himself just b4 the true Christ returns. In Matt. 24 & Mark 13, Joshua/Jesus Himself was very specific about this. Also, it never ceases to amaze me that the Rapturists point to 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 as their main basis, yet conveniently ignore the following Scriptures in 2 Thess 2 where Paul writes another letter to the Church warning of the misconception [or "rapture," of sorts] many were getting from his former letter (also, ignoring Ez 13:16-23 (v. 20, specifically) where God specifically states he HATES the doctrine of those who teach His people to "fly" away... which He already knew in His great Providence & foresight when this was written THOUSANDS of years beforehand!)... Besides, the words "air" & "clouds" mentioned in 1 Thess 4 are words that mean "Breath of Life" from Genesis when God created Ha'Adam & Breathed His Spirit ("Ruak") into him, & "crowds" of people [similar to, or as in, "clouds" of locusts] - not literal sky & clouds. /%c| Also, the teaching of Jesus about "2 working in the field; one taken, & the other left," is the reverse of what is taught by most, the one taken is fooled by anti-christ, whereas the one remaining working in the field is the true undeceived believer! NOT the twisted other way around! Lucifer comes at the 6th trump, Christ at the 7th, which 7 is naturally chronologically after 6! Wake up children of God!

Quote:"Those who care more about what theologians taught or did not teach than what the bible teaches is making themselves to be false teachers. The doctrines taught in the bible are not popular and to decide what is right or wrong based on popularity of how many taught them is what makes for false teachers and false doctrines." - This is exactly what is happening, stated verily by someone themselves deceived - they have believed what has been told them by so-called theologians over the years! The rapture doctrine is also the most POPULAR doctrine taught by MOST & the MOST heard!!! Don't you see?!Clearly this person has incriminated their own beliefs by what they themselves have stated [which according to Christ Himself is also a VERY common Biblical occurence!)

Get a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance & learn to use it w/ the KJV & stop listening to self-proclaimed & "doctorate"-appointed ratchet-jaws.

Children, let's stop listening to fabrications & fairy tales of the imaginations of men (& women) who fancy themselves as "playing 'church'" [which Christ explicitly warns us about in Scripture] & get down the meat & potatoes.

About the Rapture, it is hard to know where to begin. We can't agree with McPherson; he ignores too many fact and types, and either doesn't know the evidence that contradicts him, or willfully ignores it. Perry Stone has a great teaching on the ancient Jewish wedding and how it is a pattern for the Tribulation period. It should convince just about anyone. Also, the theory that the pre-trib rapture is a 19th century invention was discredited long ago. Church fathers from the 1st to 4th centuries wrote about it. I saw one such comment on your blog.

In Matthew 24 Jesus tells the JEWS what will happen to THEM.

McPherson ignores the Geneva Bible which came before the KJV. It translated "apostasia" as "departure," not "falling away." I believe other older versions agreed with the Geneva. I can't understand this idea that the KJV is the ONLY correct Bible. Did God not have a true written Word before 1611, and did He decide to reveal Himself only in English??

He misinterprets 2 Thes 2:1-3 by saying that the "Day of the Lord" is the day of the rapture.

He ignores the missing "70th week" in Daniel.

One of the anonymous bloggers said the word "Rapture" isn't in the Bible. I'm sorry, but that's ignorant. It is in the Latin Vulgate because "rapture" is a transliterated Latin word. It means "caught up" (1 Thes. 4:17) in English. People shouldn't look for Latin words in English bibles. I suppose that person doesn't believe in a Trinity because that word isn't in an English Bible, either.--- end ---

MY REPLY:My stance is this: If I can't clearly read it in my King James Bible, I'm not buying it. And I don't see any clear scriptures saying there is a pre-tribulation rapture. So until further notice, we will simply have to agree to disagree. May the Lord Jesus Christ open our eyes and lead us to the Truth I pray - we both can't be right!

A friend and I use to argue this subject to no end. I hope he was right (pre-trib.). But it really doesn't fit with the rest of scripture. You have to put a favored interpatation on way to many scriptures to wake it all fit together.

COMMENT:I would like to get your opinion of "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers" which I found on the first page of the "Powered by Christ Ministries" site. Maeposted by Anonymous11/22/08 11:29 PM

REPLY:Never heard of Thomas Ice but I see on the Rapture Ready website he has several articles to support the false and dangerous teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture.

No where in scripture can I find clear proof of a pre-trib rapture. And whenever I ask my pre-trib believer friends to show me the verse/s, rather than take me to the Bible, they point me to a person who teaches this hoax. Evidently my friends think or have been told they are too stupid to see it in the Bible and explain it to others. And the one friend who did do a teaching on it, created more confusion than clarity as she twisted and skipped scriptures.

It seems that whenever pretribs have painted themselves into a corner - or have been painted by others into a corner - one of their "luminaries" conveniently dreams up something "enlightening" to justify hanging on to their 178-year-old theory with their eyelids. To see what I mean, Google or Yahoo "Pretrib Rapture Desperados." After attempting to stretch forward the "day of the Lord" (what even Darby and Scofield never dared to do!) and hook it up with the previously stretched forward "rapture" (a DOL stretch that leading Greek scholars rejected), another diehard defender desperately claimed that the "falling away" is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the "rapture" in II Thess. 2:3 must happen before the "rapture" in II Thess. 2:1 can occur!). The more they struggle to shore up their collapsing "pillar of sand," the farther down pretribs sink into their "quicksand"! Just my 2 cents. Stacey

Though I've never really studied the teachings on the rapture, I've always had my doubts, and have for years relied on the "Pan" tribulation theory. (It will all pan out).

Many have wrote that this is a big hoax, a bunch of lies, and as Cathy qouted below from II Thessalonians 2, "Let no man deceive you by any means" and adds that God will give a 'strong delusion' to those who do not love the truth.

I think this is going way to far. How does this teaching show one not to be a servant of God because they believe it or teach it? Those of you who either oppose or believe this doctrine make it seem like the other is lost because of their belief or lack of it! "Why all this warring over words"?

As one person wrote: "The doctrines taught in the bible are not popular and to decide what is right or wrong based on popularity of how many taught them is what makes for false teachers and false doctrines"

I agree with this statement but people can be very mistaken over doctrine and still have a heart sold out to the Lord. As long as they're not living in obvious deliberate sin, who are we to judge? Show me where believing this (or not)is a sin! Show me where it will keep someone out of heaven!

It's not the same argument of "eternal security" (which I don't believe and I feel is a real dangerous, unscriptural delusion of satan), but it's more like that of the KJV verses other translations. (I'm not a KJV only reader mainly because I've never seen a KJV Korean, Spanish, Lithuanian, etc... bible.) What do people who don't speak English have to do, learn the king's English before they can read the bible?

I do not know when the Lord is coming. I do not know if there is going to be a rapture. I do not always understand what the prophecies in the BIBLE mean. I do know that no matter what we must be ready. Pre, mid and post tribbers should quit tripping and read the word of GOD. DO NOT READ ANYTHING INTO THE WORD OF GOD. We are not to add or take away from HIS HOLY WORD. I wanted to add a note that the "rapture" was discussed prior to 1830. Here is a link to a interesting article that talks about it:http://bible-prophecy-today.blogspot.com/2009/01/brief-history-of-rapture.html

Thanks for the comment. Went to the article you mentioned and found the following comment from a reader quite interesting:

"None of the references cited in this article, which purports that the pre-tribulational rapture position was taught before the 1830's, actually reveals or supports this conclusion. If anything, the references from Morgan Edwards, Peter Jurieu, and Brother Dolcino, all indicate a rapture occurring sometime WITHIN Daniel's 70th week--that is, the last 7 years before the Millennium, Christ's physical rule and Kingdom on Earth. These early ministers of the Word held a belief that the Church would be raptured before "a time of judgment" of the world--God's wrath. Modern pre-tribulationalists believe instead that the rapture will occur before Daniel's 70th week even begins. Clearly the latter is a relatively new teaching, not held by the aforementioned men, and certainly not by the Apostolic Fathers, for whom we should give due deference, beyond anyone else, save that of the Word of God itself. Test all things, and compare Scripture with Scripture."

Many these days are abandoning the pretribulation rapture view, and the June, 1995 article by Chuck Missler (”Byzantine Text Discovery: Ephraem the Syrian”) reveals why there is such a mutiny! First of all, the authoritative scholar that Missler cited, Dr. Paul Alexander, referred only to “Pseudo-Ephraem” and not to Ephraem the Syrian. (If an unsigned ancient manuscript resembles the real Ephraem but there is a question of authorship, they assign it to “Pseudo-Ephraem” - the word “pseudo” meaning “possibly.” For some groundless reason, Grant Jeffrey, the one who reportedly found the “discovery,” changed Dr. Alexander’s terminology! For more info on Jeffrey, Google “Wily Jeffrey.”) And Missler’s scholarship is also questionable. According to the Los Angeles Times (July 30, 1992), about one-fourth of Missler’s 1992 book “The Magog Factor” (which he co-authored with Hal Lindsey) was a daring plagiarism of Dr. Edwin Yamauchi’s 1982 book “Foes from the Northern Frontier”! Four months later Yamauchi’s publisher revealed that both Lindsey and Missler had promised to stop all publishing of their book. But in 1995 they were found publishing “The Magog Invasion” (which was either a revision or a replacement of “The Magog Factor”) - which had a substantial amount of the same plagiarism! (Dave MacPherson’s 1998 book “The Three R’s” has complete documentation on this and other pretrib scandals.) After listing “1820″ as the reported date of the birth of pretrib (he should have said “1830″), Missler sees a pretrib rapture in that Medieval writer’s phrase “taken to the Lord” and, since he evidently favors rewriting others instead of researching, is unaware that Dr. Alexander explained that this phrase really means “participate at least in some measure in beatitude” - which has reference only to doing acts of virtue on earth and not being raptured away from earth! Alexander added that the same ancient writer held to only one final second coming (and not to any prior coming) which would follow the time of Antichrist! (Readers can Google “Deceiving and Being Deceived” by MacPherson to see how groundless the Pseudo-Ephraem claim is and to learn how desperate pretribs are to find any pre-1830 evidence for their escapist view. Dr. Robert Gundry of Westmont College has also demolished the Pseudo-Ephraem claim in his 1997 book “First the Antichrist.”) Since Missler also leans on Thomas Ice, readers can evaluate Ice’s qualifications by Googling “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun),” and “Pretrib Rapture Diehards” (the latter part). For further light on the 179-year-old, fringe-British-invented pretribulation theory, Google or Yahoo “Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts.” Finally - why would anyone who has the brains of a rocket scientist want to be taken up with the concept of an any-moment pretrib rapture? The answer may well be that there’s more money in elevating a rapture than launching a rocket!

Cathy;Please allow me to share with you what the Lord God (Yahweh) gave to me concerning the Rapture. His proof Scripture for the pre-tribulation Rapture is Revelation 3:10, and you can read the rest of what He gave me at http://www.fmh-child.org/tribulation.html.All for the love of Jesus,Bruce

Where-as I respect other people's opinions concerning the pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation,or post-tribulation theory, I must say that Mr Macpherson does rather have his facts in a twist. The simple fact that he says that no theology books had any teachings on the pre, mid or post tribulation before 1830 although the Bible [KJV]which was translated and made public as far back as 1611 already had the teachings of pre-tribulation [1Thessalonians 4:13-18]The reason why it was not taught or written about in theology books, too my knowledge is because the Church at large did not yet understand fully all concerning the scriptural interpretations concerning these matters. But today more clearly the Church does have an understanding as things became more clearly about matters on the end times. Obviously 500 years ago there were no such things as atomic bombs, nuclear bombs and so forth, yet today with all of the technology that man has at his finger tips these Bible teachings throughout the old and new Testament are so mu8ch understandable. I mean just reading Ezekiel 38-39 and what it means today, was totally non-understandable 500 years ago. No MacPherson you have it totally wrong. My Bible teaches that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture, and the many millions that are witing and watching for that grand and glorious day for the "sudden catching" away of the redeemed will not be disappointed. For those who are of the opinion that this event will not take place will surely be disappointed.William

Sorry William but there is no mention of a a PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTION in the scriptures.

The Second Coming of Christ/the Blessed Hope, Yes, but no place in the Bible does it say this happens before the the great tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4 talks about the return of Christ. The pre-rapture false teaching is a hoax; do not be deceived:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Many Christians today have been deceived and one of the main tools used by the enemy has been the Scofield Study Bible which promotes the following lies:1. Eternal Security: you can go to heaven no matter how bad you act2. Calvinism: false teachings of John Calvin, a Jew whose real name was Cohen.3. God blesses those who bless Israel and the Jews, even those Jews who reject the Lord Jesus Christ, live in wickedness and abuse usury.4. Age of Grace/New Dispensation: Jews can go back to their homeland even though they disobey God (this is contrary to what God said in the Old Testament).5. Christians are obligated to support evil Jews.6. Christ will come back TWICE and these two times are separated by 3-1/2 years. This illogical teaching has created a generation of worthless Christians who can hardly wait for the "rapture" to exit planet earth, avoiding the tribulation, thus they do NOTHING about the problems of the day, i.e. war in Iraq/Lebanon. In fact, they want war so Jesus will come back sooner - how stupid is that? Meanwhile, the suffering innocent scream for help while the "Christians" watch tv and shop at the mall. Question: What would Jesus do? Hint: read the story Jesus told of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10.

May the Truth be revealed, may the lies be exposed, may the deceived wakeup, may the sinner repent, may the lost get saved and may the Lord Jesus Christ be glorified I pray.

Bruce, you reference Revelation 3:10 which says "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

The Lord Jesus Christ can keep us from the hour of temptaion but that does say anything about a pre-tribulation rapture. How he does it is not clear in scripture.

No where in the Bible can you find a clear teaching on a pre-tribulation rapture. Why? Because the pre-trib teaching is a hoax, plain and simple.

Isaiah 66:4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.Isaiah 66:3-5 (in Context) Isaiah 66 (Whole Chapter) 2 Thessalonians 2:11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The Lord Jesus Christ warns us more than one: "Let no man deceive you." And He will give a strong delusion to those who do not love the truth (Isaiah 66:4 & 2 Thess 2:8-12).

Cathy,I respect your opinions concerning matters of the rapture. What I don't agree with is your continued argument that there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation event. Am I too understand that you then believe in a mid or post-trib event. If either then I am at sorts that you are of the opinion that the Church must go through a time of suffering as described in Revealation, too maybe purify, cleanse or even sanctify the church [God's children] My question too you is why would a loving God who sent His Son Jesus Christ to pay the debt sin for all, and who took upon Himself the punishment, being so badly beaten and bruised, shedding His life's blood for you and I, being resurrected from the dead, for us to have eternal life, to be seated on the right hand of God the Father interceding for us continuously. Promising us He will come and fetch again to live with Him forever. Why go through all of this to purify and sanctify them who come to a saving knowledge of Christ, why would a loving God and Lord then want His Church to go through this during the terrible Tribulation period. It does not make any Biblical sense. I suppose you will disagree that the Church is no more mentioned from Chapter 4of Revelation till chapter 18. Only from chapter 19 is the Church spoken of again.If this is so then where is the Church during this time.Why are they not spoken of during that period. Please pray tell me as I am at a loss here. The Church will and is not anywhere during the Great Tribulation but with the Lord in Heaven.

Cathy, can you please explain to me the difference between 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 which speaks of the dead in Christ being called out of their graves, and those alive in Christ being caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord; and then Revelation 18:11-21 being the saints of all the ages returning with Christ the Faithful and True, and all the armies of heaven making war against the Antichrist and his armies at that place spoken of as Meggido\Armagageddon.Explain to me where all the millions are that were caught up to be with the Lord before the Tribulation period of Revelation 4-18. Because if I read these scriptures I cannot find that those millions that were caught up are anywhere on earth during the Tribulaion. Can you prove otherwise where they are.

Cathy, I apologise but yes the scripture was\is meant to be Rev 19:11-21. Whereas 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 does not make mention of millions but isn't it obvious that those who are called out of the graves at this particular time by the Lord and those who are alive in Christ being caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, isn't is obvious that this will amount to millions that have been in their graves from all the ages past and the multitudes who are still alive in Christ. But of course you will now argue this point also. Be so kind and give me an answer on my previous question where this multitude of people's will be during the Tribulation period that are caught up to be with the Lord. Who do you say are these people's.

William, over the 30+ years I have been a born-again Christian (since 1976 when I asked Jesus into my heart and to forgive me of my sin while alone in my home one day), I have gone to several churches and been taught by various teachers, most of which taught me about the pre-tribulation rapture.

Then the Lord began to open my eyes about many things I was believing including the pre-tribulation rapture and once saved, always saved, so I began questioning these teachings.

I returned to the King James Bible and started reading it, trusting the Holy Spirit to teach me the truth.

(1 John 2:27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.)

So like you, I am on a journey in search of the Truth, trusting the Lord to guide my steps and give me revelation knowledge.

To answer your question, William, the scriptures tells us that to be absence from the body is to be prsenet with the Lord, so wouldn't they be with Him, wherever He is?

(2 Corinthians 5:8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.)

May the Lord Jesus Christ be glorified as He leads us both unto the Truth of His Word I pray.

Hi Cathy,The very fact that you are willing to acknowledge that the multitudes [millions who are dead in Christ and alive in Christ]who are caught up to be with the Lord, are in actual fact present with the Lord[2Corinthians 5:8] at this time of the Great Tribulation. Am I too understand that you are now of the opinion that the sainted dead and the Church then caught-up, raptured, etc, to be with Jesus saved and safe from the wrath of God that is too come upon the earth. My conviction and understanding of scripture is that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to this earth is when He Himself will come with the saints of all the ages and the armies of Heaven to do battle with the Antichrist and his armies is at the valley called Meggido [Armageddon]. That is when He will physically set foot on the Mount of Olives. Thaty is what we know as the Second Coming. The event of 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 will happen with such unpresedented speed the world will not even see the Lord in the sky [meaning Jesus will not be seen] as He is joined by the saints of the all the ages to be taken to Heaven.

I was wondering if you are going to reply to my last comments I made on the 11\05\2009. I want to boldly declare that God's Holy Bible declares that a multitude [millions] of His children who died during Old Testament times, and a multitude [millions]who died in Christ since the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ,for the last 2000 years of the Church-age are going to be caught up to be with Him in Heaven for the duration of the Tribulation, when God Almighty pours out His wrath on a sinful world who have rejected Him. Therefore I challenge anybody to please show me the contrary in God's Holy Word.

William,What does the scripture say? If it's not plainly written in the Bible, I don't go along with it. If you show me specific verses from the Word of God, I will follow along, otherwise not.

Again, I find no scriptures telling of a pre-tribulation rapture. That is simply my point.

I believe in the world we will have tribulation but the Lord Jesus Christ tells us, "be of good cheer for I have overcome the world".

The wrath of God is something else and that is not for Christians.

I believe in the second coming/the return of Christ which is the blessed hope - one event.

Have you read this post from June 7, 2009? http://enjoyingthejourney.blogspot.com/2009/06/zionism-occult-guild-of-antichrist.html

It is about zionism but the author also says, "There appears to be a form of Christian madness in these times whereby many believe that the hand of God can be forced, the events of prophecy summoned, bringing about the end -- not realizing that by even attempting such, they place themselves in the role of the agency of evil. The patience Christ and the Apostles exhorted for all believers regarding the Second Coming has been replaced by a zealous, unbiblical anxiety for what they perceive as the Lord's delay. There is almost an air of contempt that they are being made to suffer in this sinful world so long, as though this were something unusual or peculiar. Jesus even spoke to this, and gave stern warnings for such foolishness. But today it falls on deaf ears, tickled and dulled by candy-coated Gospel pablum, as well as deceptive teachings such as the 'pre-tribulation rapture' of the church, which has lulled millions worldwide into a sense of false security and distorted prophetic understanding. This has been a multi-billion dollar enterprise of brainwashing through contemporary Christian media. Quite a number of those chiefly involved in the 'Pre-Trib' message have ties to occult figures who are clearly working for the dark side."

May the Truth be revealed, may the lies be exposed, may the deceived wakeup, may the sinner repent, may the lost get saved and may the Lord Jesus Christ be glorified I pray.

The argument that the "church" is not seen on earth after Rev. 4:1 is based on "ecclesia" which is Greek for "church." To have a logical argument for pretrib, one would have to find "church" or "ecclesia" in Revelation's "heaven" - which no one has ever been able to do. Well, if the church isn't mentioned on earth OR in heaven during the tribulation, this is only what scholars call "an argument of silence" and proves nothing more than desperation on the part of pretrib promoters! BTW, the founder of Dallas Seminary (the No. 1 pretrib school) stated that Rev. 3:10 is the BEST proof for pretrib. He said that because he never read "Famous Rapture Watchers" on Google which shows how the greatest Greek scholars of all time have interpreted that verse! Dan

Harvest is the first resurrection.harvest is the only proper word to describe the rapture biblically.

Pre-trib-rap and Post-trib-rap aremore unbiblical than mid-trib-rap.

It is not a one event (all at once)first resurrection/harvest is afterthe manifestation of the anti-christ as false god, believers are protected during the period (though not all) wrath of God follows the harvest and than the return on earth of Christ (armageddon) and the Millenium, the last war,the destruction of heaven & earth,second resurrection and judgment and punishment of non believers.New Heaven and Earth.

Rev 3:10 does not prove pre-tribbecause to be kept from the hour oftemptation does not mean to be taken out of it. God will protect his children during the period of the anti-christ.

I am thankful that so many people are not being deceived by "the Magic Carpet Ride" called the secret pre trib rapture of the church. I am looking for "The glorious APPEARING" of the Lord Jesus! Not some secret thing! DGL

If one accepts the false notion of a 7-year tribulation and antichrist, then one, by extension, must accept the false notion of a rapture---the two go hand-in-glove. MacPherson believes in a tribulation ("Christians WILL Go Through the Tribulation"), but not in a rapture. How about "there will be no rapture, no 7-year tribulation, no antichrist." Why? Because none of it is ever once mentioned in the Bible.

For dessert I invite all rapture robots to visit the "Powered by Christ Ministries" site and read "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" in the "Dave MacPherson Archives." If folks are comfortable with plagiarism, phony doctorates, and cover-ups galore, they'll love that piece. If their cup of tea is theological arguments, they can Google "Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts" and "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy." Alfie

What Christians have foolishly done is discard the fact that God is coming to reckon with HIS people, not rapture them. They have been led to believe that the reckoning is a rapture. There is no rapture but their is a reckoning that God brings upon HIS people.

when all is said and done i put my faith in GOD and JESUS who i believe as they know what is in my heart will reward me accordingly you reap what you sow as scripture states JESUS is coming to give to each of us what we deserve we should therefore be mindful of what we think say and do even the disciples quarreled to the point of anger and were admonshed for it love one another as you would love yourself and love JESUS for the sacrifice HE made for us all REMEMBER IF THERE IS NO LOVE IN YOU THEN GOD DOES NOT LOVE YOU stay focused on scripture cathy as GOD cannot lie and HIS word leads to everlasting life

What many people miss in Matthew Chapter 24 is the divisions....Question; If the rapture is in a moment/twinkling of an eye, How could any of the things listed in verses 16-20 even happen? One blogger said "flee to the mountains"... The context is 70 AD and the warning is directed toward the disciples/believers in Jerusalem who would be alive when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies...(Flesh saved/endure to the end) There are 3 questions asked and if you don't break the Chapter down as it regards to Chapter 23 and the desolation (within a 40 year generation)of Jerusalem because of their "Ulimate" crime of crucifying their Messiah! Their blood was on them. Matt.23:35 /Rev.18:24 because they were an evil and adulterous generation. Not this weird concocted (Israel)1948 Plus Years ad infinitum! Doug Lamb tractsman@gmail.com

How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven (He's now at the Father's "right hand," Acts 2:34) “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. ("The Rapture Question," by long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn't dare to even list, in its scripture index, these too-hot-to-handle verses!) Since Jesus can’t even leave heaven before the tribulation ends, which is also when His foes are finally put down (made His "footstool," Acts 2:35), the rapture therefore can't take place before the end of the trib! (The same Acts verses were also too hot for John Darby - the so-called "father of dispensationalism" - to list in the scripture index in his "Letters" which covers Acts 2 and 3 much more comprehensively than Walvoord's!) Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The "rest" for "all them that believe" is also tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who'd be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the posttrib end of “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which is Israel's posttrib resurrection!) Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this "rapture" was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so some pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” ["gathering"] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Here are some Google articles on the 182-year-old pretrib rapture view: "Pretrib Rapture Politics," "Pretrib Rapture Scholar Wannabes," “Famous Rapture Watchers,” "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," “X-Raying Margaret,” "Edward Irving is Unnerving," “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” "Walvoord Melts Ice," “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” "Thieves' Marketing," "Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" – all by the author of the extremely accurate and highly endorsed book “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books).

In 1995, in a 24-page booklet on 18th century pastor Morgan Edwards, evangelist John Bray claimed that Edwards taught a pretrib rapture in his 1788 book titled "Two Academical Exercises...." Those echoing Bray include Thomas Ice who wrote "Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist." Edwards' 1788 work can be found on the internet. In order to claim that Edwards held to pretrib, candidates for the I-can-find-pretrib-earlier-in-church-history-than-you-can medal - including Bray, Ice, LaHaye, Frank Marotta etc. - have intentionally covered up Edwards' "historicism," his belief that the tribulation had already been going on for hundreds of years. (How can anyone in the tribulation go back in time and look for a pretrib rapture?) Here's proof of Edwards' historicism and its companion "day-year" theory which can view the 1260 tribulation "days" as "years." On p. 14 Edwards described the Ottoman Empire (which was then already 400 years old) as the Rev. 13:11 "beast." On p. 20 he defined "Antichrist" as the already 1000-year-old "popery" and the "succession of persons" known as "Popes" - his other Rev. 13 "beast." He necessarily viewed Rev. 13's 1260-day period as 1260 literal years in order to provide enough time for his two "beasts." On p. 19, while discussing "the ministry of the witnesses" of Rev. 11, he allotted "about 204 years" for their "years to perform" - years impossible to fit into a 3.5-year period! What about Edwards' rapture? On pp. 21-23 he wrote about "the appearing of the son of man in the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the living, and to catch them up to himself....The signs of Christ's appearing in the clouds will be extraordinary 'wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes and famines,' &. (Matth. xxiv. 6-8.)....The signs of his coming, in the heavens will be 'the trump of God [I Thess. 4:16], vapor and smoke, which will darken the sun and moon [Matt. 24:29],'...and also cause those meteors called 'falling stars'.... Right after his combined rapture/advent (!), Edwards said: "And therefore, now, Antichrist...will...counterfeit the preceding wonders in heaven...causing 'fire to come down from heaven'....And that godhead he will now assume, after killing the two witnesses....Now the great persecution of the Jews will begin...for time, times, and half a time...." Thomas Ice's article on Edwards (see first par. above) quoted only the first 27 words in the above quotation, ending with "to himself." This sort of unethical revisionism is constantly employed by many pretrib defenders. Not only had most of Edwards' historicist tribulation occurred before his combined rapture/advent, but his Antichrist kept raging for 3.5 years even after the Matt. 24 signs! No wonder his tutor advised him to correct his thesis! To read Edwards' complete work, Google "[PDF] Two Academical Exercises...www.breadoflifebiblestudy.com." For more info on Edwards, Google "McPherson Page" (click on a reproduction of "Cover-Ups"). Also Google "Deceiving and Being Deceived" by historian Dave MacPherson.