Egypt is Not Special

Over the past two and a half years, Egyptians have become fairly desensitized to violence on the streets of their capital. Prior to 2011, virtually any crime beyond petty theft – let alone violent flare ups in public squares or massive processions against the authorities du jour – grabbed the attention of the Egyptian populace; it was simply outside the norm. Today, lawlessness is rampant, a day without a “million man” protest is unusual, and “molotov” and “birdshot” are as ever present in the Egyptian lexicon as “fuul” and “ta3miyya.”

Yet, even given this more jaded context, the events of the past few days were utterly shocking.

Rightful Indignation

The latest official figures, aggregated from Ministry of Health and newspaper sources, indicate nearly 1,300 people killed from August 14 – August 16 — the vast majority of whom were peaceful protesters in Cairo, Alexandria and other governorates.

1,300 people. Dead.

To put that in context, the death toll throughout the vaunted – and violent – eighteen days of the January 25 uprising didn’t pass 850. The numbers are, as one can imagine, historic. As The Atlantic notes, August 14, 2013 was “one of the deadliest single-day instances of police-on-protester violence since Tiananmen Square.”

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There are, naturally, many who are rightly outraged by the crackdowns on anti-military protesters, particularly with regard to the Raba’a mosque sit-in. Governments around the globe condemned the excessive use of force, a sentiment echoed by human rights organizations and the United Nations.

This – let’s just call it what it is – massacre has also triggered a crisis of conscience among at least two high profile figures that have adamantly supported the army’s actions since the July 3 coup. On Wednesday, Mohamed ElBaradei resigned as interim vice president, saying that he “cannot bear responsibility for one drop of blood,” while word came on Friday that National Salvation Front spokesman, Khaled Dawoud, resigned in response to his organization’s failure to condemn the army’s violence. Dawoud later clarified that the turning point for him came when he saw the scores of dead bodies at the Al Iman mosque, where victims of the Raba’a crackdown were sent when fires engulfed the makeshift hospitals and morgues.

One wonders, however, what exactly ElBaradei and Dawoud expected when they backed the military overthrow of a democratically elected president.

Blind Jingoism

While there are many individuals, organizations and countries that have taken a principled stand against the security forces’ brazen disregard for innocent lives, these condemnations are largely – and sadly – falling on deaf ears in Egypt.

This is especially the case with the junta led government. Far from realizing the devastation their actions have wrought, officials have done away with any pretense of humanity and given security forces the green light to use live ammunition at will. This declaration has, of course, been roundly cheered throughout Egyptian media (which has served as a state mouthpiece since the coup) to the extent that each channel now displays banners (alternatively in English and Arabic) declaring variations of “Egypt Fights Terrorism.”

Needless to say, the constant drumbeat of this Orwellian message has permeated deep into Egyptian society. It’s likely that most Egyptians fully support the crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood, their supporters, and anyone else who is against the current military-led regime. In fact, a sizable percentage of the population seems to want security forces to take an even harsher stance against the “terrorists.” As disheartening as this circumstance is, the fact that generally respectable academics are whitewashing the military’s actions while regional powers outright support the brutal assault on protesters makes it likely that more egregious crimes against humanity are yet to come.

One Foot Over the Brink

A sort of “exceptionalism” has taken hold of Egyptians recently. It’s led them to believe that they can, for example, escape the laws of political science when it comes to the dismal repercussions of military coups. This “too big to fail” mentality has also led Egyptians to believe they are immune from the tumult that has engulfed other countries in the region.

Indeed, not long ago, if you mentioned “Egypt” and “civil war” in the same breath, you were assumed an alarmist with a penchant for sensationalism. Today, human rights experts proclaim that Egypt looks “depressingly like Iraq” while one of the premiere bloggers in Cairo compares the Egyptian army’s strategy towards the Brotherhood to Bashar Al-Assad’s approach to protesters early on in the Syria conflict.

So, to put it bluntly: Egypt is not special.

The sooner that all parties realize that the country doesn’t have some magical immunity from catastrophe, the sooner we can perhaps pull back from a descent that could cripple the state and the region for a generation or more.

49 responses to “Egypt is Not Special”

this is truly sad to see. it hurts to see so many bodies lined up and casually reported on the news in a tone and manner that is as if to say “see, look at those crazy Moozlums, they’ll eat each other”. I intend to become more versed on the inner-workings of each and every country that claims to be a Muslim country, because I am tired of hearing about how “Muslim countries are crazy” and how “things like that always happen in that part of the world” I am waiting for the day that a predominantly Muslim country adopts, properly practices, and properly implements Islam without omitting some key aspects while maintaining the aspects that they find favorable. I do not feel that this will happen until that country is not in a more wealthy nation’s pocket.

Being a Muslim in the military I hear the worst stories, comments, and discrimination about Muslims and Islam in general from the most ignorant of people. I know that on a micro level the best way to combat their ignorance is to not only be the best Muslim I could be but to do so unapologetically and not be sheepish about being a Muslim. On a macro level, I know it is as Allah states in the Quran that our condition will not change until we change that which is in ourselves.

Lastly, as a revert, I must say that it makes you an idealist in that you learn about the deen and you believe that anyone who has this kind of belief system and way of life known as al-islam, it would be impossible to be morally bankrupt, depraved, and spiritually destitute. So when I see what goes on in the world I have a lot of question and I do not understand how people turn away from something that put life in me and saved me from myself. I am far from an ideal Muslim but I can say that, I was dead inside. The miracle that we as Muslims have to understand is that, prophets (peace be upon them all) have all been attributed miracles by the permission of Allah, but the distinct miracle that Allah allowed Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) to perform was to give life to the spiritually dead. To change the hearts by speaking God’s words are something that no one else did. If we as Muslims remember that, there would not be chaos in these countries.

Thanks for the comment. You have quite a unique perspective, given your circumstance. Do consider putting your tale to print and allowing us to publish it. I’m sure you have a lot of insights our readers would be interested in hearing.

Salaam Youssef,
May the peace and blessings of the Ruler of All the Worlds be upon you, your family, colleagues at this website, visitors of this website, and this entire ummah. I have to say that I am flattered you even took the time to respond to me and that you would want to hear more from me in regards to the path Allah placed me on that I pray will ultimately lead to Him and His favor. Unfortunately, I do not believe that I have anything too interesting to say that would garner much attention from your readers. Neither do I have any credentials outside of my sincerity that validate my thoughts, words, or opinion. Nevertheless, for the sake of sharing I can tell you a little about myself if you feel it would be of benefit.

“I am waiting for the day that a predominantly Muslim country adopts, properly practices, and properly implements Islam without omitting some key aspects while maintaining the aspects that they find favorable. I do not feel that this will happen until that country is not in a more wealthy nation’s pocket.”

I believe you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. It is natural for Muslims to want to live under the rule of Islam but over the decades in many minds this idea has become vague. What does it mean to live under Islam? How do we achieve this? Is it by adopting democracy and through the democratic process enabling gradual change? Does it mean fighting the rulers and demolishing their system and replacing it with the Islamic system? Or as Youssef Chouhoud says, “I support the rule of law and the enshrining of democratic institutions.” What does this mean? Which democratic institutions? But wait doesn’t democracy contradict Islam? Isn’t democracy the rule of man and Islam the rule of Allah? Where will sovereignty lie?

There are so many questions and realities that need to be properly defined and understood before we can proceed in any given direction. However, in all this there is one matter which is absolutely clear and upon which there can be no compromise. The source of all solutions must be the Quran and Sunnah. Whoever proposes a solution must first be qualified to give one (ie, a scholar of Islam) and secondly must provide the detailed evidences for their ijtihad.

This is not a simple problem that we face and to jump on to a bandwagon without fully understanding is a catastrophe just waiting to happen. May Allah (SWT) guide our Ullema so that they can guide the Ummah of Rasulallah (SAW) to victory in this life and success in the Hereafter.

May Allah’s peace and blessings reach you, your family, and this entire ummah. You asked the interesting question of just how you create and implement an legitimate Islamic government. The first thing that must happen is that the individuals involved in this process must have the sincere intentions to form an Islamic government not for their own gain but because they feel it is the right thing to do.

Because of the nature of strategic geo-politics, the country must be financially stable and dependent because if they are not they are to bend to even whim that the funding government suggest. So if you are asking which country can do this, it must be a wealthy Islamic country, if your are asking how it can be achieved, I would say that there must a congress that consist of knowledgeable scholars who will check and assess ever decision that is to be made by the ruler. Each assessment must be checked solely by the Quran and Sunnah with no deviations at all. Deviations lead to extremes. An example of this is the silly rule in Saudi which states that women cannot wear seatbelts because it reveals the contour of their anatomy–so women must be in danger while men don’t have to?? COuple this with the fact that Saudi has an extremely high rate of car accidents and you can tag this as a disregard for the safety of our women and an extreme. A good book on the disadvantages of women in Saudi that was written by a female doctor who is from the US but lived in Saudi is titled “In the land of the Invisible Women”

In closing, this would be beautiful to see for many reasons but the one that stands out to me would be to see an Islamic government enact the paying of zakat which would not only result in ZERO POVERTY but a surplus as well. This surplus could be used to improve infrastructure, schools, and scientific advancements that focus on improving the healing capacity of medicine and not the destructive capacity of weapons. A side note of this is that the individual is who was ultimately responsible for creating the atomic bomb, Oppenheimer, repeated his regret for his involvement until his death because of man’s vioent tendencies.

Dear Youssef,
A balanced article would comment on the over 49 Coptic churches that have been burned down and desecrated by these peaceful Islamists over the last 4 days. They also brought out some nuns for public humiliation. Is this consistent with the teachings of the Prophet? I know the Muslim Brotherhood has “condemned” this behavior, but frankly, I do not believe a word of it.

of course there’s no justification for damaging the churches and it’s something to be condemned, but we have to realize that Egypt has entered into an unprecedented level of chaos (even greater than the Jan 25th revolution) and there are going to be crazy people who just take things into their own hands and aim their anger at anyone who is supporting the other side.

*And I’m honestly not 100% convinced by the official story of who’s behind these attacks considering that it was revealed that Mubarak’s government was behind the church explosion in Alexandria right before the Jan 25th revolution started… and Allah knows best.

It’s rather strange that over 49 churches (both Coptic and Catholic) have been burned down and yet only 7 Christians have been killed over the past few months in Egypt (bbc.com), which is extremely small given that over 1000 Egyptians (mostly Muslim) have been killed since the coup.

It’s also strange that the mosques which have been burned down and vandalised have received very little attention in the MainStream Media.

I’m convinced that it’s not the MB who are burning down these churches but rather it is either the military or foreign Islamists, or a combination of the two. The reason I am convinced is because the military has done VERY VERY LITTLE to try to stop, arrest, or shoot the people burning churches (and mosques).

I know a few people in the brotherhood in Egypt with whom I interacted during their studies in the US and who are very trustworthy. They have said (and posted pictures) of these things being perpetrated by thugs, not the brotherhood.

The media in Egypt is going crazy with accusations of the brotherhood, most of them completely unfounded and some of them absolutely crazy (I mean people were saying Morsi was planning to rent out the pyramids to another country…), so taking their word for who did these things is problematic.

Furthermore, are you really saying that these 1300 people (and the numbers are almost surely higher, there have been many reports of government officials putting down ‘suicide’ or ‘accident’ as cause of death for those shot) deserve to die because a few churches were burnt down? Do you want to say that to my wife’s friend who just lost her husband who was shot by a sniper while PEACEFULLY protesting the government crackdown?

If the brotherhood really did burn down churches, I condemn it. But until you show proof for it, let’s not justify the massacre by “oh, they’re a bunch of extremists anyway”.

Islam is perfect, teachings of our prophet (May peace be upon him) is flawless. But all Muslims are not. Please don’t base your views of Islam on the behavior of some of our deviated brothers and sisters..

Unfortunately time and space restrictions forced my hand, so I couldn’t touch on all the travesties of the past few days – given they were so many.

But, for the record, the burning of houses of worship across Egypt was utterly disgraceful. Any individuals involved should be apprehended and subject to punishment under the law.

Here’s the thing, Jon – and I say this speaking only for myself. I don’t “support” the Muslim Brotherhood. I support the rule of law and the enshrining of democratic institutions. The army, as they have shown time and again, have no interest in furthering those ends and so I am avowedly against their rule and against those who brought them into power.

This doesn’t mean I brush aside any of the (numerous) mistakes the MB have made – from idiotic to grievous. Although, that being said, I’m not convinced that there is anywhere near enough evidence to place responsibility for all the church burnings on the MB and their supporters.

Youssef – If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then most likely it’s a duck! Who do you think is burning all these churches? Santa Claus? Bradley Cooper of the Philadelphia Eagles issues a racist diatribe and blames it on alcohol. Unfortunately, I believe that all alcohol does is unmask what was really in his heart. Similarly, the actions of those upset at the army’s overthrow of the Muslim Brotherhood controlled government has unmasked what is in the “heart” of “some” Muslims. Unfortunately I believe that this widespread occurrence within Egypt should lead to a profound public reexamination of tolerance of Islam towards minorities living within an Islamic country (I don’t think it will, but it should.).

Jon, if you think anything is conclusive in Egypt these days, or that there aren’t elements willing to go to ANY length to bring about the ends that would suit them, then you haven’t been paying attention. Again, that’s not absolving anyone who actually did commit these crimes, but let’s just hold off judgement on a series of events that fits oh so neatly into the ruling junta’s narrative until all the evidence is in.

On the issue of religious minorities, Egypt has done a piss poor job of safeguarding them and granting them their due rights in the past and little has change. We have to do better.

OMG Jon for god’s sake.. Please explain to me…what is the point of your comment? it’s a Muslim majority country.. and they can’t even protect their own mosques from being burnt to the grown or even protect their own Muslim people… what makes you think they care about churches or synagogues. If that’s how they treat people who are supposedly of their own religion.. what makes you think these very same people would treat others better? Egypt is in utter chaos. It is very much like a riot going on and it’s clear all hell will break lose, buildings will be burnt, public property destroyed, private property stolen, defaced.. and your like one of the victims.. pointlessly blaming me or yousef just because we happened to be talking about it why did we break and destroy your things. Have some sense of perspective. I know your upset but look you’re not the only one.. there are people who actually lost their loved ones to this madness.. and still trying to make sense out of it.. and you are asking as if we know what happened? Hello if we knew what is happening, what is the solution, we would have fixed it.. pronto.. but do you think we got a grip of the problem? NO. So have some sense..We’re upset too and at a lost. No one cares for any single one matter right now. Your talking about a country that is under a military coup right now, that has no sense of rule of law, that overthrew their first democratically elected government, that before Tahrir Square, has previously spent years after years trying to deIslamize Egypt. Did you forget all of that conveniently when your accusing Islam is at fault for this? Good try. Anyway, I think it is quite safe to say collectively people who have sense just want this madness and senseless killing to end. Those who want to try to force their agenda and have some political gains out of this chaos will surely make the way out of this difficult. But for sure, the death toll cannot rise, the destruction has to cease. And this anger has to stop. If you really care that much, don’t add fuel to the fire and be part of the solution.

Jon what about the fact that no Churches were blatantly left unprotected by the state which clearly anticipated such violence. Or the fact that army snipers were placed on Churches? There are sectarian elements in Egyptian society and have been since Nasser and this type of Tiennamen crackdown in which all are complicit breeds radicalization and fear. This is the idiocy of the situation, the MB for all its flaws was heralding a new era of thought in Islamist circles. Al Qaeda’s narrative the whole world hate Islam and would never let Islamists ever rule in any government was beginning to lose currency as the MB and other Islamist parties were slowly but surely abiding by the rules of the game and learning democratic politics which had been denied to them and others for decades. In the Muslim world ‘Democracy’ used to mean the veneer to dictatorship. It will be once again if this junta succeeds. The MB has despite the bloodshed sought the path of nonviolence. One cannot help but feel this junta is going out of its way to breed a insurgency as all fascists do to justify its clinging to power. The situation is out of the MB’s leadership’s hands as the days go by. They will not be able to do anything and all those Egyptians that tried democracy for the first time and saw votes of 5 elections thrown in the garbage will no longer believe democracy exists for them. With Libya a safe haven in the east and a military that only knows how to lose wars and kill protesters Al Qaida and other extremist groups will shove “I told you so” down everyone’s throats and quietly begin. And we will see a war in Egypt that will easily become like what we are seeing in Syria. Regardless the end result will be that democracy is a distant dream.

I have been glued to the news on Egypt since Morsi was deposed. Every time I thought it couldn’t get worse, it did. And now with the news that most MB supporters were expecting and saying from day one, that the state wants to disband MB. Of course, that will not be the end. The more you oppress a force, the more it becomes resilient. It would be much easier to defeat MB politically by winning hearts and minds based on economic and social policies (even resorting to propaganda as was the case for most of Morsi’s presidency) than to defeat it by force.

More thoughts:
While all of the violence thus far has been despicable to say the least, the images that I found most disturbing were from yesterday, with civilians (you can call them thugs but that’s a lot of thugs) kissing up to the military and being more Sissi than Sissi himself. Reminds me of Uncle Tom, where some slaves would get more angry at insults upon their masters than the masters themselves!

How do average people get so numb and heartless to the killing of people with whom they share common ancestry, religion and race? I cannot think of any other factor bigger than the media. Once Sissi shut down outlets ranging from neutral to pro-MB, the only ones left were those that embodied the Uncle Tom spirit, those run and owned by Egypt’s elites who prospered under Mubarak and didn’t want anything but Mubarak back. There was an important article in Christian Science Monitor I believe that I can’t locate, which talks about this media affect on average Egyptians. Egyptian media has done what FOX couldn’t imagine doing in a hundred years. If we thought FOX was islamophobic, Egyptian media has taken this to another extreme.

What is happening with the dehumanization of brothers specifically but more dangerously with anyone who looks Muslim++ (beard, niqab) will have wide and long-term consequences. We know what happened with Jews in Europe (the technique there was not just about Judaism as a religion but that Jews were “money-grubbers”, etc.). Now I am not saying that pro-coup folks are like Nazis. But rather there are themes that are common in terms of how to dehumanize the other.

If Egyptians don’t start sealing this fracture, their society with a large percent of Muslims++ will rip apart before too long.

Many, like Jon, harp on the churches issue. Let me say it loud and clear– no building, whether a church or a mosque or a synagogue is worth more than one innocent civilian’s life. Even in Islamic tradition you find that a life is worth more than the Kaba, the holiest sanctuary for Muslims in the world.

What is really so disgusting and despicable is Sissi’s governments’ attempt to use the churches issue to divert attention from its crimes against humanity. Can’t we use the simple logic that with the amount of state security resources that government has, it couldn’t provide protection to the churches? Rather the interim govt wanted this sort of reaction. Just like they wanted a reaction by the MB in response to their massacres. The latter is not a conspiracy theory but is now being channeled by many influential political commentators.

Thus Egyptian Christians have become unwitting pawns in the military plan to destroy MB. And unfortunately the Copts made the strategic mistake of siding with any side. This is because they could not, should not have ignored the underlying current of “Christian vs. Muslims” and not allow that to be exploited. One could imagine the same if roles were reversed and it was Christian brotherhood which was removed from power and if the Muslims cheered and supported the removal. We cannot ignore underlying perceptions, even if Copts have as much right to support the military as non-copts. It is about staying above the fray to protect your own.

Of course, this doesn’t excuse the act itself. Each person who had a hand in destroying one church, one Christian’s life or private property, be it MB supporters, government insiders, is a despicable low-life who should face the highest punishment allowed by law.

What I see going on in Egypt is similar to what I saw going on in Bangladesh earlier in the year and in Turkey to a lesser extent also, and that is a power struggle between the so-called Islamist and secularist elements of Muslim societies. And unfortunately I have to wonder whether any sort of dialogue existed between these two factions prior to all these struggles, or if the two groups (secularists and Islamists) just actively avoided each other for the most part during peacetime. As practicing Muslims, I believe it has to be our duty to reach out to those secularist elements so as to discuss with them completely what Islam is and what it entails and to give Da’wah to them towards better understanding what Islam is (a complete way of life that offers solutions to all issues affecting society). Before we go out to give dawah of course, we have to ourselves be knowledgeable about Islam first. And we should give da’wah using compassion and beautiful forms of persuasion. It’s all too easy to avoid, look down upon, and even curse out those who, despite being Muslim, don’t follow or know about the tenets of Islam properly. But we as practicing Muslims must never take the easy way out, otherwise it leads to chaos like what we see going on today in many Muslim countries (everyone fighting to gain power and not knowing how to wield that power effectively once they have it).

The best form of Daw’ah is being a good person.It starts at home then at the Masjid. At our masjid events everyone sits with their own race, we do not even know each other
Outside the Masjid most of us do not even interact with people of different faiths
Do we know our neighbors?? Is all this chaos really surprising??

I’d like to have a pro coup write an article here and justify this Islamically. It will also be interesting to read a Erdogan vs protestors and Sisi vs protestors comparison, because I’m sure some opportunists will do so.

I would like to thank everyone for reading my posts and responding. It was certainly not my intent to hijack the thread of this article with my comment on the Coptic churches, but since I have the opportunity, let me clarify and respond to some of the comments made.
1) I am NOT a supporter of the Egyptian military coup, and their actions are difficult to even remotely begin to justify. I have NEVER stated that the destruction of the Coptic churches was a justification of the actions of the military.
2) Mr. Chouhoud: Your writing is clear and well thought out. My criticism is not on what you write but rather on what you choose not to write. Your responses to me acknowledging that some of the mistakes made by the MB are “idiotic to grievous” reveal you to be open-minded and show that you clearly understand the major issues involved. Why then would you not include these thoughts in your articles rather than only acknowledging them when questioned? A true journalist examines the entire truth no matter where it leads him. A commentator is clearly allowed to interject his opinions, but if he selectively only sees (or reports) one side he compromises his ability to influence those who do not originally share his opinions. Your article is like preaching to the choir. If you wish to truly influence people who do not share your opinion you must be able to report on all sides of an issue in order to get to the “truth.” (whatever that is!)
3) There are many here who assume that since Egypt is completely falling apart, the destruction of the many Coptic churches is a minor issue that is being given too much attention. I respectively disagree. The perception in the West is this is “proof” of Muslim intolerance and that any sympathy that was being generated for the Egyptian populace is not deserved. Several people responded that the action of these people are just “crazies” or a small amount of people and should not be reflective of Islam in general. First, it really does seem that this is being perpetrated by a lot of people, not just a few. Second, since the Coptics apparently supported the coup, it is really quite Machiavellian/ Oliver Stone conspirist to attempt to convince me that the military is behind this. I will grant you that these incidents may have occurred without the approval or support of the MB, but I (and almost everyone else not on this website) will believe these acts of violence were committed by those who support the MB. If you wish to bury your head in the sand like an ostrich and pretend this isn’t so, well so be it.
4) If Egyptians wish to show that the right of a non-Muslim to live and worship safely in a Muslim country is a fundamental tenant of Islam, then the actions of the last few days must be countered by more than simply meaningless words of regret and condemnation. There must be action. One writer asked me to be suggest an action so here it is: Muslims in Egypt should offer to rebuild these churches and sincerely offer to protect them. Just a thought.

Jon, though I may not always share your views, I do always welcome them. I will be more mindful to interject more balance in my pieces, although I do ask that you grant a little more benefit of the doubt as writers are always forced to tackle one angle or two at most to allow their work to be of an optimal length for online reading.

On the issue of minorities, we’re largely in agreement that relations need to improve, although I would caution not to think that animosity is the norm. You mentioned protected Christian houses of worship. Well, as it turns out, that’s just what happened in the town of Sohag this past week: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2013/08/muslims-protecting-christians-in-egypt-during-mass.html Now, I wish there were more scenes like this, but rest assured that there is a large contingent in Egypt that wishes there to be peace and equal right of worship for all.

Thank you for your comment. I appreciate your sentiments. I also checked out the link for the website you mentioned. It is a wonderful story. Unfortunately they were not there four days ago when the church in Sohag was burned down to the ground.

I think Shaykh Hamza has turned out to have the most prescient and validated comments
on these political upheavals. Simply getting rid of rulers is not enough. As he has said, the
most basic, elemental and foundational problem in the Muslim world today is the lack of
akhlaq. There is simply a lack of basic civility, decorum and a spirit of accommodation and compromise. There is utter dishonesty, cheating and lack of tolerance. All of these things
make it impossible to have a civil democracy and basically ensure that only dictators can rule
these countries with anything resembling a semblance of civility…which ofcourse comes
with corruption, lack of basic freedoms, and this recent exposition of barbarity when they feel
their rule is threatened.

This whole situation was problematic from the start. We will never have peace in our
homelands until we learn that we MUST compromise and reach accommodation to have it.
This zero-sum mentality that affects everyone from Islamists to secularists is a bane
on civil society. Until we give up this “winner takes all” force what we want down people’s throats
all or nothing nonsense, forget peace. Everyone is at fault here…the Brotherhood, the secularists, the liberals, the media. Everyone. This is the natural result of not caring about the rule of law, but instead investing in the idea of winner takes all and might is right. It is sad to see Egypt go down the same road as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, et. al.

Lastly, I’d want to ask opposition figures like Baradai, what the h*ck did you except to happen
through a coup supported by the likes of Saudi Arabia? In what alternate universe did you
think that would lead to a liberal democracy? Wasn’t it enough to warrant suspicion that the Saudis
were calling the original 2012 revolution “un-Islamic”, but they gave this one
full backing and 12 billion in aid suddenly materialized?

There is no justification for killing 1300 people whatsoever. No matter where you are coming from. This is more heinous a crime than burning all the mosques and churches in the world. So don’t compare.

Some good points here (referring specifically to ZAI but others too). Basic rules of disagreement are being disregarded with the same lack of care that Muslims show towards each other’s lives.

I would argue, however, that the problem here, and the underlying problem of the entire Arab spring and related conflict, is the massive, major, fundamental split that has occurred in the Arab/Muslim world. You could almost say there is a 50-50 split between those who want a secular state, and those who want an Islamic state. Whether the secularists/liberals are being influenced by the West (probably), and the Islamists are being backed by terrorist/extremist forces (likely), the fact is that Egyptians (and Tunisians, and and and…) want their country to head in radically different directions, and this conflict is the inevitable result of this AND the ‘winner takes all’ mentality, as well as the basic disregard for the lives of fellow Muslims/countrymen/Arabs/etc.

In the Levant region, there is the added molotov of sectarian Sunni-Shia conflict on top of this already combustible situation, so the violence has a longer history, is even more bloody, if possible, and one could argue there is even less hope of a resolution in the near-future due to the radical differences between Sunni and Shia (real or imagined).

The thing is, with due respect to those of us who support this kind of idea, Western-style democracy is Islamically impracticable. To enact democracy as the West conceives of it is to say: “We will only practice the Islam the majority of people want”. Since doing “what the majority want” means essentially doing what everyone can agree on – a.k.a. the Lowest Common Denominator (it ain’t just a math term) – Islam essentially becomes a surface religion like the Christianity currently practiced in the West, an extension of people’s personality, like their clothes and cellphones, and not a way of life. Argue however you like, this is what Western-style democracy leads to, given the nature of people to only agree on the lowest types of behaviour when in crowds. The current moral, ethical, and cultural bankruptcy of the West is testament to this. And let’s not forget, we can all agree – we need to make money, so rampant industrialism and consumerism is another “side-effect” of this type of political system (actually it’s the entire reason the West follows it, but that’s another topic for another day).

Instead, as we have known for 1400+ years, the Islamic mode of governance/leadership is As-Shura – mutual consultation. Of course, secularists have somehow used this as a justification for rampant no-limits democracy, and argue that the Qur’an itself orders us to imitate the West with their bankrupt political systems, na’uthibillah. There is a hadith which indicates that something bad is still bad even though the majority of people engage in it, and good is still good even though only one person (or no one!) follows it. And our measure for this is Qur’an wal Sunnah. However, the basic assumption of democracy is that what is right is what the majority thinks is right, regardless of reality – “1 million people can’t all be wrong, right?”.

Until the Muslim world re-realizes that our solutions are not in imitating the West in their failed and destructive quest for worldwide liberal democracy, and instead re-evaluate the meaning of their religion, and why Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) was sent to us, we will forever be either in remorseless conflict or an apathetic state where Islam is an adornment for our unique, modern, utilitarian personalities.

Unfortunately I can see a lot of uninformed comments probably formed by watching biased media. The western media is cheer-leading for chaos in Egypt and it pains me to see fellow Muslims do the same. The only ones who are supporting Egypt and its prosperity, to be frank, are Saudi Arabia and some other fellow Arab brothers.

To those supporting the Brotherhood, I will say:

1) They burn churches, is this what Islam preaches?
2) They kill innocent people and claim they were shot by police. Their have been images of MB members posing “dead” for the camera
3) Morsi destroyed Egypt’s economy
4) Morsi and the Brotherhood were friends with the greatest enemy of Islam, Iran

And if you talk about Islam, dont forget that the Saudi King is supporting Gen Sisi, and he is advised by eminent scholars and they know what is right in the light of Islam far more than any of us.
And if that is not enough, even Al Azhar has spoken out against the Brotherhood.

I can understand some western Muslims are unaware of how evil the Brotherhood are because they have not experienced them. I lived in the Gulf and people there are very wary of the Brotherhood and prominent personalities/Shuyookh have spoken out against the Fitna and chaos that they spread.

SubhanAllah, you think the Saudi king is doing this because it is “‘right in the light of Islam?!” The only motivation for this support is political. All the Arab dictators were perfectly happy with the solid control they had over their countries before the Arab Spring and they want to make sure they crush any possible threat to their control- simple as that. This has absolutely nothing to do with them wanting to further the cause of Islam.

wow, what a comment. So Saudi Arabia, known for its descipable human rights record and racism, is now a beacon of enlightenment? Can you repeat that please?

To your four points:
1) No evidence. If and when MB take responsiblity for it and say they destroy churches, you will see me being the first one to write against them.
2) No evidence. The MB rallies had as much arms as Saddam had WMDs. Just like Bush sold WMDs to the American sheep population, Sissi has sold arms to the Egyptian sheep population. We ALL SAW IT. With our OWN eyes. Even if someone in the crowd used a gun or two, there was absolutely no evidence on record, that the crowd was armed. So please stop being a sheep.
3) He didn’t destroy it. But doesn’t appear he helped it. And no one can forget how he was blocked from doing anything at every step by what is the now the post-coup alliance
4) Iran is not the “greatest enemy of Islam”. Neither is Saudi or any country. The greatest enemies of Islam are those who justify the spilling of innocent blood and I hope you don’t get included in that. And who says that “guilt by association” is approrpriate?

As for scholars of Saudi… please! Are you deliberately telling half the story or are you just in the dark of the full story? Shaykh Salman Ouda and Shaykh Arifee— two of the biggest names condemned the massacre in Egypt. And most other scholars will probably be put in jail if they say a word. As for Azhar, I think you missed the rally by Azhar scholars against the coup. The official figurehead of Azhar is a political appointee and as such is doing his job as well as the Saudi mufti– and that is to kiss up to whoever is in power.

Finally, I am not a great lover of ikhwan… had lots of issues working with them in USA, but does that mean I will support a coup that has among its friends Assad, Israel, that benefits Israel the most, that wants to decimate influence of Islam in Egypt, that has made bearded men into targets, that kills at will (even its prisoners)? Look, there is a reason that pretty much all Western media has come out against it. And please the last thing Western media would be biased towards is Islam. There is no logic in it. The brutality and oppression is so obvious that even sheep will get it. And I hope you are more than a sheep.

Saudi Arabia’s human rights record? Whose version are we talking about? If its the western one, where criminals get rights, then yes its “bad”. But in eyes of Islam , they have done nothing wrong as they apply Shariah, which means a murderer wont be given 5 star accommodation.

And overall, Saudis and citizens of other Gulf nations love their leaders who have given them a standard of living which is an envy of the average westerner; they drive better cars, have cleaner roads and safer societies.

Anyways , coming to Egypt, have you noticed most of MB’s support seems to be foreign, from Turkey, western Muslims and other Brotherhood members? Most Arabs, and particularly Egyptians detest them. All Arab channels,with the exception of Jazeera are supporting Sisi. How do you explain that?
When the siege at a mosque ended, common Egyptians wanted to lynch those inside, but the police stopped them doing that. Surely the Brotherhood must have done something to make the average Egyptian hate them so much?

wow… the articles and the comments are something I don’t know if I can completely distant myself from…. I feel for the people of Egypt the innocent men, women, and children who were doing peaceful protests for 2 months and the resultant deaths of 1000s of people in Egypt. The spilling of muslim blood and indeed many of those protestors were laymen not high figures in any movement political or otherwise. This spilling of blood is tragic, their voices have not been heared. What is even more tragic is the desensitization of this and other occurances.

If you have an ideological difference from the brotherhood, fine but to be so niave and support the gulf countries in their sending money to the Egyptian army to stem the rebellion and by stem meaning actual field face time killing of muslims…bravo…on your understanding…. bravo…..

Don’t mention the Saudi kings or their statements as an example of islaam following, they are the lesser of the two evils that muslims deal with. The Saudi scholars, esteemed scholars always speak out against rebellion because of the aftermath it causes…I wonder where they were when Morsi was elected president and enjoining salah(afterall that is the thin line between accepting a ruler over you no matter how much of a sinner and not). These same Saudi scholars, senior esteemd scholars were foremost in support Syrian people’s rebellion against the Bathist Assad but when the signal ws given by their king otherwise, they stopped.

so may Allaah forgive them and guide the senior scholars for they really don’t have much in their hands.
and yes Saudi to this day does hve human rights violations, whatever shariah they use to practice in the past is now diminishing, no more executions for murder and no public executions in Saudi. And yes the Gcc countires despite givng their citizens immense support are afraid of ikhwani influence, hence sendng money to the Egyptian army to kill more terrorists or ikhwanis or actually just muslim protestors.

*This comment was edited by the MM Comments Team in order to comply with our Comments Policy*

Sounds simple, but basically that’s what’s going on here. I wouldn’t go as far as saying ‘kufr’, but certainly the fundamental issue is a violent, bloody, and inhumane difference of opinion between which direction Egyptians (and most of the rest of the Arab/Levant world) want their society to head in.

The Ikhwan want something, the leftist secularists want another, and the only “resolution” they can see is the violent revolutionary winner-takes-all mentality we see going on here. Remember that the Ikhwan and secularists put aside their differences to overthrow Mubarak, and both fought with and killed those who were supporting Mubarak at the time. Alliances quickly change when different circumstances present themselves.

This is not to say the MB ‘got what was coming to them’; however, when they assumed power, they were naive to think that Egypt’s large secular contingent, which had always had control over the country’s media and commerce, etc., would sit idly by and support the re-Islamification of Egypt. That is against their interests – they do not want Islam as a state religion, nor do they even want an increase in Islamic awareness and practice in the country. Of course, this naturally allies them with the Copts and other religious minorities in the country.

At the risk of repeating myself – this is the fruit of the kind of revolutions which have been all too common since the big French Revolution of the late 1700s. Complete societal meltdown and overthrow of the existing order, without a clear plan as to what the revolutionaries want to replace the current system. So, while Mubarak was tyrannical, and secularist in his own way, those who opposed him didn’t ensure they agreed what they wanted beforehand. Instead, they relied on the emotion of adrenaline-filled revolution, overthrew the government, and then hoped that elections would solve their problem, restore “freedom” and “peace”, a la The West. When the inevitable power-grabs occurred, due to the utter lack of consensus of what they wanted for the new Egypt, suddenly the Brotherhood were ‘doing things we did not elect them for’ – liberal democracy in action.

As I have said before – the solution is simple, we just don’t want it because it involves more hard work than violence and constant conflict.

It may be that Egypt needs to split, like Sudan did, into a part of the country which wants Shari’a, and the rest who don’t. That, would mean leaving homelands, giving up work, wealth, etc. Is this not exactly what the Muhajirun and our Nabiy (s.a.w.s.) did? Is this not a founding factor in our deen, so important that we start our calendar according to that great event? Yet it doesn’t even occur to us to do such a thing because we need big nation-states in order to compete with global economies. Who cares if we’re forcing people with severely different belief systems to live together? They’re replaceable in the great scheme of globalization – this is the fruit of following that which is not in our best interests. Hint – this is not ‘from the West; because this idea has spread everywhere, hence its ability to change societies around the globe.

Interesting Hisham,
I don’t know what your background is(ethnicity or views) but you just totally disregarded what I just wrote. I have a lot of respect for shaykh sudais but does he justify killing of the 1000s of people many of them families. I’ll go ahead and break it down for you. I do not agree with the ikhwanul muslimeen. I do not asribe to them nor am I part of them but I will defend their right to participate in a fair government with their votes which they had given and had a president who was democratically elected. their sit ins were peaceful initially without any “violence” the violence came afterwards this military coup.

Despite being a proponent of neoconservative salafism with a few added out of the box views(which I am now quite comfortable with because rather than being a drone I’d rather think for myself and realize nobody works in a vacuum be it even the ma shaa ikh), I still think what dhulm happened to the people in Egypt is wrong.

You did not have a jawaab for my post? do you even have an answer. May Allaah swt guide muslims like you and also myself.

what is happening in Egypt I do not see it as “ikhwani problem.” I see it as a muslim problem. learn to think for yourself brother, do not be brainwashed(unless you are an xyz government official from an xyz nation then I apologize and please do not kill me for my views).

@ Hisham. I’d say the opposite! After Shaikh Sudais has given his opinion on the Brotherhood and how they are responsible for ‘spreading violence and Fitna’, no Muslim should have any illusions about THIS MAN.’

In contrary much respect for Sheikh Shuraim…look at his tweets on the situation.