Baiting Nigerian scammers for fun (not so much for profit)

Originally posted by Craig007:We do what we do, because we believe in it. That should be reason enough.

The reverse is obviously true for the (nigerian) scammers and that could be said about a lot of wicked ideologies as well (I'm sure that Al-Qaeda, for instance, believes in what they do). If any action is justified just because you believe in it, well, I don't know, but I think our society would cease to exist pretty quickly

Obviously, I think that the scammers are deplorable, selfish individuals that do not deserve any kind of pity but scam baiting is almost as bad. Nothing good will come out of it in the end, wouldn't be surprised if it actually increased scams in the long run (to make up for lost time and money and hurt pride).

Reality is such a relative term, however I can see your concern OOPMan. Comparing scambaiting to a violent group of vigilantes is a stretch.

Morals and ethics is very much a personal decision and we can't enforce or control the actions of an individual baiter. We offer advice and build on techniques for effective baiting. There is a strong sense of poetic or street justice, whatever you want to call it, within the community. We're not evil or crazy (maybe a little), but people making generalisations on the social background of baiters is presumptuous, and also incorrect.

I am not disillusioned by what we do, and I respect the opinions of those who disagree. That's the way you feel, fortunately there is little or nothing you can actually do to stop it.

I could sit here and tell you story after horror story of the victims of these faceless crimes, but it would do little to placate your view. I've learned not to attempt such pointless conversation. Me trying to give you some justification of what we really do and achieve to gain some satisfaction of changing your opinion would be futile. If I didn't experience the aftermath of one of these crimes, and get to see up close and personal how belittling and crushing it was to a person, I would have thought the same. In my line of work I am trained to separate myself from the story and work on facts. I get to see the very best and worse of humanity, but my least favourite story is the one that is personal to me. I had to talk a friend out of suicide because of the humiliation and loss he felt after not only loosing money in a complex love scam, but the dignity and shame he felt.

Not all baiter's believe in a violent end to a scammer. It is just an email, but an email with consequences, on both sides of the fence. I know from the scammers time we waste, the fake and fraudulent banks sites we kill, the arrests we have made, and all the great work on victim support, education and information. The fraudulent bank accounts and stolen credit cards scammer use, everything we do is for the victims we've met, spoken too or seen. The entertainment side of scambaiting is just a fraction of what we do. It just happens to be popular. We do what we can with the tools we have.

You're right. No-one is forcing us to do this, but most of us feel it's a moral obligation to pick up the slack were the law has failed, or is powerless to prevent.

Assuming your crystal ball is right, and all scam baiters turn into violent, bloodthirsty vigilantes will be the day I quit. If the worse thing I do to a scammer who destroys people lives is make him wear a watermelon on his head, then so what.

You're welcome to see what it is we really do and achieve, besides entertaining ourselves.

I am a bit surprised at all of the comments in regard to scambaiting being immoral, etc. I hate to burst your collective bubbles, but, while some victims are of the greedy type, many are just the opposite. Many of these scams involve themes revolving around the scammer being caught in some sort of unfortunate circumstance and wanting the victim to help them out of the situation. One common story is that of a rich, dying cancer victim with young children and a lot of money. They want the victim to take the money and adopt the children. So these victims feel they are doing a noble deed only to find that they've been ripped off.

Many of these scammers live much better than a typical citizen of their country, and their authorities turn a blind eye to the problem and even skim their own profits from the fraudsters as a price for that blind eye. So if the authorities aren't going to do anything about a problem, then it is up to the vigilantes to do what they can.

These scammers are the scum of the earth and deserve every bit of the suffering that is "bestwed" upon them by scambaiters.

I am very proud of two of my scambaits. One was a "diplomat" involved with a "tsunami victim" in Bankok, Thailand. Seems that his family was all killed and he was too young to be able to claim the trunk boxes filled with cash that his father wisely left with a security company, thus he needed my help. The end result was that the diplomat travelled from Bankok to Delhi, India to meet me... all in vain of course.

The second was a "gentleman" who joined my church by handwriting a 6-page essay on why he wanted to join and what his church membership would mean to him, then getting tattooed. He then performed a pastorial ordination ceremony, on video, which involved having mud smeared in his eyes and being dunked three times in a river. He had to do it twice, as the first attempt was not acceptable. He then wrote a sermon about the commandment "thou shalt not steal" (ironical, isn't it), travelled to Chad to collect his $325,000 and when that fell through, he threatened to go to the Canadian consulate in Lagos to file charges against me. Yeah right! This fellow is clearly not a victim of a gang or bigger scammer. In fact, like my scammer, if you look at the pictures of them with their tattoos, many appear to be relatively well dressed, in very good health and quite physically fit.

So for all of you "lad huggers", please spare me your pity. I'm an old testament kind of guy... a tooth for a tooth. If you turn the other cheek, it will only get slapped too.

To the member who posted saying Blah was the only one who posted something useful, I can be arsed quoting your name, but my suggestion to you is you are not receptive to what I think, hence you fall under the categories I have mentioned.

Do you know what? I'm a volunteer. It's not my job to justify what we do, and try as I might, I could go on for pages and pages with both sides of the argument.

I'm not doing that, because it is:

1) Unlikely to change your mind2) I am not baiting when I am writing essays on ethics3) I have a life too. I'm not spending hours compiling some report on the ethics of baiting.

There are enough people out there to contribute to a combined effort to get our point across.

To the person who said that Al Qaeda uses that justification too, my point was that is why WE do it, not why YOU should. There is a subtle difference.

Originally posted by Gerson:I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, but I think this is nasty and immoral. Scamming isn't right, obviously, and the baiters' stories are admittedly often funny, but let's get real. The scam baiters are well-off Westerners (even if they happen to be poor, by global standards, they're relatively well-off). The scammers themselves are from the developing world, and they're just trying to make a living--in an awful way, to be sure.

Tricking a poor Nigerian into wasting huge amounts of his time and money and possibly getting him into serious legal trouble is just wrong. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do to you, or did to others in the past. Two wrongs don't make a right, and they especially don't when there's a fundamental power imbalance between the West and the developing world.

Again, sorry to be the humorless guy in the conversation, but this is really just mean-spirited and petty at best, and deeply cruel and life-threatening at worst.

WTF have you been smokin'? scamming innocent people trying to help others is more deeply cruel. Think of it as fair play. I think there is an expression from nearly all major religious doctrines about this called "the golden rule" -yes?

Originally posted by Craig007:To the member who posted saying Blah was the only one who posted something useful, I can be arsed quoting your name, but my suggestion to you is you are not receptive to what I think, hence you fall under the categories I have mentioned.

That would be me. The person who posted right at the end of the previous page. The person who you replied to previously as well. Your attitude in the above paragraph speaks volume as to your character.

quote:

Originally posted by 419baiter:I am a bit surprised at all of the comments in regard to scambaiting being immoral, etc. I hate to burst your collective bubbles, but, while some victims are of the greedy type, many are just the opposite. Many of these scams involve themes revolving around the scammer being caught in some sort of unfortunate circumstance and wanting the victim to help them out of the situation. One common story is that of a rich, dying cancer victim with young children and a lot of money. They want the victim to take the money and adopt the children. So these victims feel they are doing a noble deed only to find that they've been ripped off.

Many of these scammers live much better than a typical citizen of their country, and their authorities turn a blind eye to the problem and even skim their own profits from the fraudsters as a price for that blind eye. So if the authorities aren't going to do anything about a problem, then it is up to the vigilantes to do what they can.

These scammers are the scum of the earth and deserve every bit of the suffering that is "bestwed" upon them by scambaiters.

I am very proud of two of my scambaits. One was a "diplomat" involved with a "tsunami victim" in Bankok, Thailand. Seems that his family was all killed and he was too young to be able to claim the trunk boxes filled with cash that his father wisely left with a security company, thus he needed my help. The end result was that the diplomat travelled from Bankok to Delhi, India to meet me... all in vain of course.

The second was a "gentleman" who joined my church by handwriting a 6-page essay on why he wanted to join and what his church membership would mean to him, then getting tattooed. He then performed a pastorial ordination ceremony, on video, which involved having mud smeared in his eyes and being dunked three times in a river. He had to do it twice, as the first attempt was not acceptable. He then wrote a sermon about the commandment "thou shalt not steal" (ironical, isn't it), travelled to Chad to collect his $325,000 and when that fell through, he threatened to go to the Canadian consulate in Lagos to file charges against me. Yeah right! This fellow is clearly not a victim of a gang or bigger scammer. In fact, like my scammer, if you look at the pictures of them with their tattoos, many appear to be relatively well dressed, in very good health and quite physically fit.

So for all of you "lad huggers", please spare me your pity. I'm an old testament kind of guy... a tooth for a tooth. If you turn the other cheek, it will only get slapped too.

Do you know what? I'm a volunteer. It's not my job to justify what we do, and try as I might, I could go on for pages and pages with both sides of the argument.

I'm not doing that, because it is:

1) Unlikely to change your mind2) I am not baiting when I am writing essays on ethics3) I have a life too. I'm not spending hours compiling some report on the ethics of baiting.

There are enough people out there to contribute to a combined effort to get our point across.

To the person who said that Al Qaeda uses that justification too, my point was that is why WE do it, not why YOU should. There is a subtle difference.[/QUOTE]

Let me get this straight. First you try and tell us that no, the majority of scam victims are not greedy, then you proceed to illustrate a bunch of scam layouts that rely on the scam victim being greedy?

I mean seriously. If someone contacted YOU out of the blue, over the internet, claiming to be the son of a diplomat unable to access scads of money belonging to him due to his being underaged and his parents having been killed in a flood and the money being held by security companies (Phew, what a tongue-twister, did I get that all?) would you seriously consider his request for help to be valid?

2: Scam Victims - Sometimes blameless, mostly greedy and stupid (Once again, when did anyone ever stop you in the street and offer to give you $10k for holding on to $100k for a day? Never I'd guess...)

3: Scambaiters - Some of them are helping, most of the ones mouthing of here seem to be keen on getting Scammers injured.

My, what a wonderful bunch of people we have:

1: The Confidence Criminals2: The Victims, Mostly Stupid and Greedy3: The Vigilantes, Juvenile and possibly Psychopathic...

Originally posted by Gerson:I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, but I think this is nasty and immoral. Scamming isn't right, obviously, and the baiters' stories are admittedly often funny, but let's get real. The scam baiters are well-off Westerners (even if they happen to be poor, by global standards, they're relatively well-off). The scammers themselves are from the developing world, and they're just trying to make a living--in an awful way, to be sure.

Tricking a poor Nigerian into wasting huge amounts of his time and money and possibly getting him into serious legal trouble is just wrong. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do to you, or did to others in the past. Two wrongs don't make a right, and they especially don't when there's a fundamental power imbalance between the West and the developing world.

Again, sorry to be the humorless guy in the conversation, but this is really just mean-spirited and petty at best, and deeply cruel and life-threatening at worst.

Just to give some additional information on John Boko. As I write, I have been in contact with "John" posing as a fellow scammer looking for work. John has just offered me a job as just one of several of his European representatives to help cash and transfer payments from scammed victims for him. I was offered between $2,000 and $3,000 per month just for the simple job of gathering victim's payments together and forwarding the money into his bank account.

During our conversations I John told me he was making around $45,000 a month on average from his various scams, ranging from standard 419 type scams to cheque and Credit Card fraud. His team consists of around 20 individuals located in various countries around the world. I was also able to discover the name and contact details of John's artist and managed to contact him to confirm he had indeed been paid for his work, although he wouldn't tell me how much he was paid!

I'm still in contact with John, who calls himself Tony, who incidentally just collected a $15,000 payment from one of his "guys" in Switzerland. Any information I can find will be handed over to the relevant authorities.

I hope to update this page a little more soon.

Hopefully, this will disabuse you of the notion that these scammers are just poor abused folks trying to scrape by by any means necessary.

My mother got scammed a year ago. She called me crying hysterically after the bank called about bounced checks. I drove 8 hours to help her and explained to her what had happened.

Now realize, my mom is 70 and in good health but she has that 'nice old lady' train of thought going. She isn't senile. She doesn't have dementia (we had her checked out). She is just very trusting and empathetic and since dad died a decade back she has had to handle many new situation. I had to watch her cry and pound her lap with her fists because she felt so stupid and humiliated. She hardly got out of bed for 2 weeks because she was so depressed. Worst of all, she looks at every man, woman and child with suspicion and fear and it isolates her from the world. At the time in her life when her greatest daily pleasure is interacting with people, she has walled herself off to protect herself from a man halfway across the world.

My mother has lost her home. She has sold furniture that she inherited from her mother who inherited it from her mother before her. These arent fine things, but they were part of her life. We cant support two houses so she lives with me and my husband now and she is welcome to do so but she had to move away from her friends and her life. She cant connect with the ladies in her bridge group at church. She doesnt have high school and college chums nearby. She is depressed and stays at home because she feels she has nowhere else to go. I think she is waiting to die.

The events that bastard scammer set in motion will end up killing my mother by stealing her will to live and I am helpless to do anything about it.

Scammers are grifters; scam artists who do it for the money and who do it for the rush of the con. I don't advocate getting them killed, but I come close.

The police, both in the US and overseas, are impotent and will not deal with these people. In the old west when a town didn't have a sheriff or marshal, they would empower a citizen to become one. These sheriff appointees usually didn't kill people but they did keep the peace with the townsfolk's support. Anyone who slows scammers down or diverts their attention away from a mark is a responsible citizen, not a vigilante.

I know the scammers will not be eliminated entirely but vigilant people combating them will help reduce their effectiveness and, hopefully, save another person from my mother's fate.

As for the law:

The law is not a monolithic thing kept far away in a courthouse or library. The law is a living, changing set of rules and procedures established by the consensus of individuals in the absence of effective higher authority. The law is balanced and reasoned, not emotional. It tries to do the most good with the fewest negative consequences. The law is just but not overly harsh. Most of all, the law is something we carry in each of us because in the absence of just law around us, we are the law.

Anyone who thinks these scams are just about balances on a bank statement, you are wrong. Some scams are gleaming daggers slipped between the ribs. The death is slow and bloody with time for the victim to ponder his fate.

I just wanted to add my response to the argument that scam victims are just greedy people and the poor, deprived Africans are taking advantage of this.

Through www.scamwarners.com, I recently spoke to a 60 year old cancer sufferer who, in the past 3 years, had lost both her husband and her son. She thought she had met a wonderful man through a dating site...in truth, a scammer. When he said he ran into some financial difficulties while on business in Africa, she sent him $20,000.

Another woman who had unknowingly met a scammer through a dating site was being used by him to reship goods that he had purchased with a stolen credit card.

Were these woman greedy?

As Blah mentioned, others being targeted are people who answer a job as a nanny on Craigslist or models approached because they have their information posted on portfolio sites. They are hired, sent an advanced payment and then the job falls through. The hirer kindly tells them to keep 10 or 20% of the check for "their trouble" and send the rest back through Western Union. Except the check, which initially seems to clear the bank, bounces after a month or so and the victim is responsible for the full amount and penalties to the bank.

I was a scambaiter for several years, and it was a lot of fun to see these base criminals waste their time. However, I've stopped baiting and now do nothing but scam warning. That is, I call scam victims (or potential victims) on the phone and talk/warn them about the scam aimed at them. I've spoken with around 1000 victims now.

Those of you who instantly say that victims are "greedy" and deserve everything they get are uninformed. Those of you that say the only logical solution to the presence of scamming is education (or economic development, or whatever society-engineering you're fond of) are just mouthing off with your top-of-the-head opinion.

I think that if all the critics of scambaiting had seen the results of scamming, i.e., if they had ever talked with a victim and understood the full story, would never say what they do.

Yes, there is an aspect of vigilantism in scambaiting, and yes, most scambaiting affects only the lowest level of scammers. It's as if we were putting all our attention on the guy dealing drugs on the street corner and not going after the king-pin behind it all. However, we have also taken down more than one "oga" (gang-leader, or "chairman" as they like to call themselves). In one case, we did it by baiting him and all his troops, and warning every single one of his potential victims. None of them made any money for a year, and they just gave up and went back to ordinary street crime.

The charge of vigilantism bothers me, but only a little. You critics--why don't you forward some scam emails to the FBI and see what kind of response you get? None whatever, actually. Traditional law-enforcement is interested, but almost helpless. Now and then a ring of fake check-writers is captured and jailed, now and then a scammer is arrested at a bank or a Western Union office when he presents himself with fake credentials and tries to collect his criminal gains. However, most scammers get away with what they do.

The primary goal of scambaiting is to put the scammer out of business. If he goes to jail, we're even happier. If he suffers harm of some sort, we shed a single tear for his immortal soul and then we go on to the next scammer. In the thousands of scam-baits I've seen documented, there's only one where the baiter actually tried to send the scammer to a dangerous location, and even then it would have been safe had the scammer done in with a guide. (I don't think the scammer was harmed at all, by the way, although many have ended up stranded in another country, since they spent all their money chasing their own greed, to which I say, "bravo!" Perhaps this makes me a psychopath in your eyes, but meanwhile there's one more scammer thoroughly discouraged from scamming.)

For the record, also, scammers are not only in Nigeria. Many are in West Africa, but many are also in Russia, the Philippines, Japan, and all over the world, including Canada and the USA. Victims are also all over the world, and they usually aren't rich white people--Muslims are especially vulnerable (and as a result especially targeted) because the scammer has only to pretend to be Muslim and then the victim simply cannot believe that a fellow Muslim would lie to him or her. I've talked to a number of them. Being the same race or religion as the scammer doesn't matter at all, as the scammer is only about the money. (That doesn't stop the scammer from invoking God and Jesus and praying for help in the course of "his work.")

People who have not seen scams at work close-up simply cannot grasp the evil involved. A man whose child is dying of cancer and needs money for treatment--is he greedy for stupidly falling for a scam that promises him enough money to save his child? There's no doubt about the scammer's intentions--in one case I know all too well, the father said he had to chose between paying the scammer's latest fee or paying for his son's cancer treatment. The scammer answered that it was too bad about the son, but when the man got his $10,000,000 then he could easily have more children.

I could go on forever. People with no real experience: Please listen in and inform yourselves before judging. You may end up joining us.

If you are contacted by a scammer, that scammer is trying to destroy your life. If you destroy their life in return it is self defense. Please do not pretend that these scammers would not kill you if they could get a few dollars from it.

Scammers have no morals. They do nothing to contribute to the common good. If a scammer is harmed or killed by his own actions when trying to destroy your life it is on their head and the heads of their fellow conspirators. You have no right to feel guilty.

Also wanted to add, I've been contacted by a scammer through a dating website. I didn't send "her" any money because I was smart enough to see where it was going, but it was still embarassing. Did I deserve that? Was I being greedy? Should anybody just looking for another human to connect with be fair game?

Oopman wrote:-------------------------------------------------------------My, what a wonderful bunch of people we have:

1: The Confidence Criminals2: The Victims, Mostly Stupid and Greedy3: The Vigilantes, Juvenile and possibly Psychopathic...-------------------------------------------------------------

You forgot one other group.

4: Totally uninformed idiots who condemn us for what we do without looking into what's happening first.

In my examples, I did not say that the kid was a son of a diplomat... the story was that his parents and siblings died in the tsunami that hit Thailand a few years ago, he was the sole survivor, but was too young to be able to retrieve his father's possessions from a security company.

While some scam stories are meant to attract greedy people, a high percentage of them are mean't to tug at your heartstrings and evoke a sympathetic response from the victim and play on that response.

Rather than stand on the outside throwing rocks, you should enter the "lion's den" and see what's really happening out there. It's certainly an eye-opener.

Hello. Another member of 419Eater here. And of aa419.org, and of scamwarners.com.

I actually don't bait much any more. What I mainly do is to kill fake websites. These have been set up by scammers as a means of giving credibility to their fraud and to help convince potential victims that the scam isn't a scam.

This thread has an interesting debate going, so I thought I'd add my $0.02. It may surprise some here that there are many ethics threads that periodically get started over at 419eater that anguish over many of the issues that you have seen above.

As you will have seen from the posts made by some of my 419eater colleagues, we are a .... well I suppose a community is as good a description as any. And in any community you have a variety of members with a variety of attitudes, beliefs and approaches. Very much like here, in ars technica.

I have seen some incredibly rude, flaming posts made in this thread, and I have seen some reasoned arguments. I have also seen evidence of intelligence, prejudice, rationality, humanity, stupidity, ignorance, humour and of closed minds. A bit like eater, really. The one thing that unites us over at eater is that we don't particularly like scammers, and what they do to their victims. How we go about dealing with that dislike varies from individual to individual. As I said, don't bait much - I'm a little too "left brain" for the creativity required.

What I would point out is that it is very easy to fall into the "Poor Nigerian vs Greedy Westerner" cliche. In fact, some African scammers will use the argument of their nation having been ruined by Western slavery and colonialism, and all they are doing is setting past wrongs to rights; this is just so much self-justifying bullshit. As well as visiting 419eater, I'd like to suggest that members here also visit scamwarners.com. There you will be able to read the real stories of people who have been nearly or actually scammed, or whose friends or relatives are in thrall to a scammer. There aren't many laughs, I'm afraid. And not all of the victims are stupid or greedy. Many of these scammers are very expert in what they do, and are as good at psychological manipulation as people like Derren Brown (Google him, for non-UK residents)

As has been said before, there are scammers from many, if not all nations. Many fake websites, particularly the scam escrow shops, originate from Russia and eastern Europe and are often generated by criminal gangs. These are definitely not nice people, and you certainly wouldn't want them to have your home address. They'd take your grandmother's last cent, then ask her to borrow - or sell her wedding ring. Then borrow more.

So when you have read the other side, about the personal tragedies as well as the wooden AT-AT trophies, you may be able to draw more balanced conclusions. Some of you will support us. Some will still condemn. All baiters would rather that law enforcement could and would deal with the issue, but that's not likely to happen, for various reasons including internet anonymity, cross-boarder barriers, lack of international cooperation, indifference and plain corruption.

I don't agree with all baiters, but I don't lose on second of sleep over a lad who tattoos himself because he thinks it'll bring him a few more $000's, (some of which will go to his Oga) or who travels into a war-zone and finds himself stranded because he thought he could defraud a (fictitious) church of a small fortune. No-one held a gun to their heads, or had their daughter hostage - all the baiter does is use the scammers' own psychological tools against them

There are many honest members on 419eater who do a good job. But they are heavily brainwashed into believing they are with a good forum.

However the moderators and administrators are egotistical idiots, who get great joy from slapping and harassing new members.This is why the membership had dropped so much from over twenty thousand (sic) to less than two hundred. They do not have a clue as to how to run a forum.

They have secret hidden forums, where they teach Hacking and cashbaiting, (stealing money FROM victims) these go by names like "Death star" "Alpha delta bravo" ETC they are known as the "Dark arts". Much information and proof is shown in this forum.

berrymike's post is a lie from beginning to end. The site he gives is a fake one started by people who were banned from 419eater.com. The names used by the participants there are just take-offs from names used on 419eater. 419eater.com has an admin called Lotta. berrymike's site has one called Lottawhoring, and so forth.

There are no members with names like the ones given, no stealing from victims, no hacking.

Berrymike's site is populated by what we call "trolls," who get their kicks by annoying real baiters. Perverse, isn't it?

Again, all readers really have to do is read the actual material on both sites.

As a fraud prevention employee of a credit card company I have to comment on the dangers of sending scammers on plane rides from Lagos to London. These people do not use their own funds to make these trips. Their airline tickets are usually purchased using a credit card number fraudulently, thus creating a monetary loss for the airline and/or the credit card company and a hassle and inconvenience for the true cardholder. Please keep this in mind when you are tempted to send these criminals on long distance treks.

Wow, berrymike just exactly what kind of thing would bring outthat kind of hatred to 419eater.com???

Could you have been banned from 419eater.com?How could you have been banned from 419eater.com?

Also on a side note, are cats a problem for you??

Oh well... To every one else that might feel the same way,just do as the propaganda machine suggests and just allow theAUTHORITIES to control the problem as "they" see fit, its notyour problem, Just sit back and do nothing, you will be fine.

Originally posted by .Spartan:WTF have you been smokin'? scamming innocent people trying to help others is more deeply cruel.

(emphasis mine) It would be cruel, if they were innocent. You can't scam an honest man, seriously. People thinking they can cash-in big by helping people smuggle money out of the country instantly negates the title "innocent".

There are no victims here, just criminal accomplices that were lied to and lost out. And to the guy that claimed 90% of the scams weren't like that - bullshit. I get all the scams in my inbox, too. Being asked to help steal/smuggle/embezzle isn't ok just because some random internet dude calls himself "Reverend".

(As an afterthought, I would classify the family of the target/mark/pidgeon/greedy fucker as victims, they are victims of the criminal accomplice participating in what they believe is going to pay off.)

And seriously, who is stupid enough to believe they've won an international lottery they never entered? I cannot feel sorry for these people. I do, however, have a bridge to sell them.

I wouldn't do what the baiters do (I'm personally opposed to lowering the total amount of happiness in the world), but I can enjoy the stories, and don't mind how bad the scammers are treated. Seriously, "you can't con an honest man" goes both ways, these people bring pain upon themselves. If they get killed in the process, it was their own greed that did it, not a baiter.

quote:

Originally posted by .Spartan:I think there is an expression from nearly all major religious doctrines about this called "the golden rule" -yes?

Yes, and your point is? When was the last time a religion followed the "Golden Rule"?

WallyWW. it is interesting, that you follow the eater moderators line and start your posts with lies. I can see the person you refer to as lottawhoring however he/she is NOT an administrator on 419eater.net. Or does NOT show as one.

It is strange that you say I lie, yet the last owner and current admin of 419eater Shiver metimbers, has on numerous occasions openly ADMITTED to cashbaiting. Are you then calling him a liar as well?

I would be VERY happy for people to read BOTH sites and then they will see for themselves the truth. Please be my guest.

It is strange is it not, that on the eater site, they have NOT posted ANY rebuttals of the truth that has been openly posted on 419eater.net? Why is this? could it ALL be true? I can assure you it is.

I understand the owner of419eater.net has NEVER even been a member of your site and has NO interest in becoming one. Another lie from you?

Again it is VERY clear that your site is built on lies and misinformation. Why are more posts locked or deleted on there that any other site I know? Why have you lost more moderators and members who left in disgust, than any other site I know?

Re trolls, it is a well known fact that most of the trolls on eater are their own mods using different names, is that right Franky or is it Radden? Also HOW can someone be accused of being a troll on another site that is NOT connected to yours?

You say my entire post is a lie from beginning to end and yet I posted this,"There are many honest members on 419eater who do a good job." So are you now also saying that there are NOT many honest baiters there? I would disagree with you on this as well.

If you want to play at being the critic, please get your facts right, it would help.

she has that 'nice old lady' train of thought going. She isn't senile. She doesn't have dementia (we had her checked out). (I love the way you felt it necessary to say that, just in case we didn't believe your contrived story) She is just very trusting and empathetic

<snip>

I had to watch her cry and pound her lap with her fists because she felt so stupid and humiliated.

She was stupid and she should feel humiliated. I've never seen an online scam that was even remotely convincing. I don't care if she placated the guilt she felt over her greed with the thought she was doing good, she should feel ashamed she participated in a criminal activity.

quote:

Worst of all, she looks at every man, woman and child with suspicion and fear and it isolates her from the world.

Ok, so your mythical mother flips from one extreme ("nice old lady train of thought", everyone is good and shits rainbows) to the other (everyone is out to get me and they all eat babies when I'm not looking). Yeah, she should be ashamed of herself. If she was real, she sounds like she'd be a fundamentalist christian.

quote:

I think she is waiting to die.

Cry me a river. Or would you rather I donate to her cause?

quote:

In the old west when a town didn't have a sheriff or marshal, they would empower a citizen to become one. These sheriff appointees usually didn't kill people (except blacks, mexicans, jews, chinese...) but they did keep the peace with the townsfolk's support. Anyone who slows scammers down or diverts their attention away from a mark is a responsible citizen, not a vigilante.

By definition, they are vigilantes. Does doublethink hurt?

quote:

but vigilant people (I thought you said they weren't vigilantes?) combating them will help reduce their effectiveness and, hopefully, save another person from my mother's (self inflicted) fate.

<snip>

Most of all, the law is something we carry in each of us because in the absence of just law around us, we are the law.

• I am sorry for responding and saying sure I am happy to engage in a bizarre business deal with you knowing full well it isn’t real.

• I am sorry you wasted time to print a horrible fake check.

• I am sorry you spent $4.90 UPS’ing it to me overnight.

• I am sorry for taking a few days to get back to you after I got the check and ask you for your phone number which you can’t give me. I knew that and still I emailed you for the phone number.

• I am sorry that I lied to you and said I could not find a western union office near me, making you look them up, emailing me a list and me telling you those two liquor stores are shut down.

• I am sorry that I lied to you about getting pissed at the western union office because they wanted $1.75 to cut a check and that I said that’s robbery and left in a huff. The truth is I never went there in the first place. Sorry for wasting your time that day.

• I’m sorry I lied the next day after you threaten to call the FBI and local police on me because I cashed your check and would not pay you. I knew you would not, but I wrote you an email begging you not to call the police and that I would pay you tomorrow after I cashed the check.

• I’m sorry that I lied the next day and said the western union office girl was rude to me so I left in anger, again delaying your money by another day.

• Im sorry I lied about sending the money to western union in your name vs the shipper so you could not pick it up. I realize this cost you a day or so.

• I am really sorry that I lied and said that the money order was at your western union, but off by 1 zip code making you drive 30 minutes to find out I am a liar.

• Your last email to me was justified. Obviously from your language you were pissed. The fact that as you "YELLED” and your grasp of the English language seemed to fade away like my Mom’s when she is livid showed me what a bad person I am.

• Your phone call from Africa? was upsetting because as you were trying to explain to me how to go down to western union and pay the $1.75 and you would pick up the fee, I realized how frustrated you were getting. I also lied about being hard of hearing and asking you to yell. Sorry.

All in all, I am sorry for sucking up your bandwidth. I realize that my actions probably sucked up 6-10 hours of your time and kept you from fleecing some gullible person.

Please forgive me. Go ahead and send me another forged check and I will send you my cash to your shipper. Please try me again. Even though I lied you to about 15 times I won’t do it again.

Originally posted by WallyWW:None of them made any money for a year, and they just gave up and went back to ordinary street crime.

Beside the fact you couldn't possibly know this, what you did was change things so instead of people willingly (though foolishly) giving up their money, it's now taken by force and violence.

Thanks for that.

quote:

You critics--why don't you forward some scam emails to the FBI and see what kind of response you get? None whatever, actually.

And appropriately.

They have better things to do than tell people how to run their life, who to associate with, and how to spend their money. These so-called "victims" gave their money away, it wasn't stolen, it wasn't bashed out of them, it wasn't unduly forced out. If you want to go knee-cap a scammer for what they do, so be it, what goes around comes around, but don't expect the government to step in and do people's thinking for them. Fuck you.

quote:

A man whose child is dying of cancer and needs money for treatment--is he greedy for stupidly falling for a scam that promises him enough money to save his child?

Not greedy, but still stupid if he gives money to people he's never met to illegally obtain more money.

quote:

in one case I know all too well, the father said he had to chose between paying the scammer's latest fee or paying for his son's cancer treatment. The scammer answered that it was too bad about the son, but when the man got his $10,000,000 then he could easily have more children.

If a parent is going to trust his kid's wellbeing to such a person, they have a level of stupidity that I've only read about on the internet.

Originally posted by Shades047:Also wanted to add, I've been contacted by a scammer through a dating website. I didn't send "her" any money because I was smart enough to see where it was going, but it was still embarassing. Did I deserve that?

Deserve what? You ssaid you didn't give her anything!

quote:

Was I being greedy?

In what? You didn't lose anything!

Greed doesn't have to be about money, greed for sex or just about anything is fair game if you're stupid about it.

Originally posted by WallyWW:Berrymike's site is populated by what we call "trolls," who get their kicks by annoying real baiters. Perverse, isn't it?

No more perverse than what baiters do.

Seriously, you lie online, don't get pissed you get lied to online. I don't care if you're a scammer, baiter, or that dog that nobody knows he is. WallyWW, you're a troll to the scammer, perverse, isn't it?

Your views on victim greed are very much so, skewed.I am sure you get all the lovely "next of kin" and "trunkbox of $$$ in Nigeria" emails in your spam box as anyone else does. Unfortunately these are the scams that do require the victim being greedy or whatever. They also do not work anymore. The scams that truly hook people nowadays are very different, and as stated many times before, do not involve greed.Job scams are all the rage now. Secret shoppers and payment processors. There are plenty of "honest" people getting scammed.

@berrymike

I will never understand you people over there at dot net. If you do not like the practices at dot com, then move on and get over it.Instead you devote an entire website towards nothing but sitting around slandering a place that really doesn't care that you exist. Don't get me wrong, it is very much so your right to do so, but is it really worth your time? You were all baiters at some point, go bait.Shiver's cash-baits from the early-mid 2000's (before eater) are open for public reading, but what you conveniently left out was that we have very strict rules against it now, to the point where there is a disclaimer attached to EVERY single one of those cash-baits.

As far as the uber-secretive "hax0ring/witchcraft" section that nobody can see. Are you serious dude? lolThe mods may indeed be talking about sacrificing live cats to satan in their own little forum, we all know that Nurse Nasty is a bit "off", but you seriously make yourself out to be some looney conspiracy-theorist with that kind of talk. Don't invalidate yourself, especially when you appear to be intellectually capable of making a decent argument.

Originally posted by Shades047:Dark Empath, I find your moral relativism boring. It must be nice to look down on everybody for their mistakes, and to not find fault with the people that took advantage of them. Have fun dying alone.

I don't look down on people for their mistakes, everybody makes mistakes. I look down on stupidity. Seriously, how desperate do you have to be to send money to someone you've never met because you're "in love". That's not just a mistake, that's a stupid mistake.

And I don't have to die alone, their's plenty of people that saw my picture online and want me to join them in a chat room!

"As far as the uber-secretive "hax0ring/witchcraft" section that nobody can see. Are you serious dude?" Yes I am deadly serious, there are over sixty members of the group "Death Star" and I know of an ex eater member who had a keylogger placed on his pc by them, ( good of eater to allow this eh?) as he had the courage to oppose and stand up to the eater mods.

The leader of eater Rover is the head of the group known as "Alpha Delta Bravo " ooops did he forget to mention this to you? There is a LOT they "forget" to mention to the rank and file. I notice that you are trying to ridicule the idea that they exist, and yet you use an eater term "uber secretive" to describe them? This is what the eater members in the know call the hidden groups, as well as the term "Spooks" Thanks for confirming their existence for me.

Regarding the MANY members of 419eater.net some who were members, some who are still members and some who were never members of eater.com They are all fed up with the lies and the way the eater mods deceive their members and anyone who they come in contact with.

When reasoned argument is curtailed, by the mods banning, or deleting or locking members and their posts, to protect the eater mod lies, and hide the truth, then they leave people no option but to set up another forum, so the truth can be exposed.

The practice of the eater mods to ridicule and portray any one who opposes their methods in any way as crazy, will not be tolerated by any decent person.

The altering of ex members avatars and signature's to make them an object of ridicule so they will not be believed will not go unanswered.

Due to the pressure from the forum 419eater.net some of these issues have been addressed and this is true progress, but the seniors at eater.com went back on their word (whats new) and this practice is still being done by one of the eater admins lotta, who continues to have adverse comments about an ex member in her signature.

Read the comments and posts on dot net and you will see the truth revealed. NOT the sanitized inaccurate edition fostered on the members of eater.com. Yes PLEASE read BOTH forums and remove the blinkers, to see what is really going down.

Originally posted by blah@419eater.com:Your views on victim greed are very much so, skewed.

<snip>

Job scams are all the rage now. Secret shoppers and payment processors. There are plenty of "honest" people getting scammed.

I've seen some of those job ads, but I couldn't for the life of me conceive of how anybody would fall for them. It's as if nobody has ever heard the phrase "there's no such thing as a free luch" or "if it's too good to be true it probably is".

Seriously, how could anybody falling for an unsolicited email offering wonderful "opportunities" from a dodgy looking source claim it was just a "mistake". No, it was a stupid mistake, and I can only assume greed in some form made them want this unrealistic offer to be true. I can't even imagine desperation played a part - just because I'm desperate doesn't mean an unrealistic spam email is suddenly true.

Dark Empath, I would love to know what world you are living in--your world is obviously full of educated people who have been taught a great deal. In the world I live in, there are many perfectly innocent people who don't have the cynicism, resources, or understanding needed to identify every scam out there.

I have dealt with many victims. Fewer than 10% of those victims have strictly followed greed and gone for the "pretend to be next of kin" or "smuggle my stolen money out of the country" scams that are obviously illegal. Greater than 90% have been victims of romance scams, job scams, puppy scams, lottery scams, housing scams, or other scams that do not involve excessive greed or willingness to participate in illegal activities. (And for lottery scams, if you are one of those people who enters every online sweepstakes that pops up, you may very well think you entered this one. That does not mean you are a horrible greedy person who deserves to have your life savings stolen).

I admit that many times I look at the emails sent to a victim, see the horrible grammar and implausible story, and wonder how they didn't know. Then I realize that:1) English may not be their first language so they may not recognize all of the mistakes that are obvious to me.2) If English is their first language, they might have learning disabilities, or they may have simply slipped through the cracks in a less-than-perfect educational system. Again, those mistakes may not be obvious. Ditto for mistakes in geography.3) They might believe they have to make a payment to get a desperately needed loan because they have never had credit before and are desperate and trusting enough to believe the (sometimes very convincing) scammers that are supported by a plausible fake loan company website. (Killing those websites is another less public side of scambaiting). In the same vein, there are many people who are completely ignorant about finance and really buy the story that companies in other countries need US reps to cash their checks. Heck, the collections scams have even snagged some attorneys!4) They are lonely and sad, and someone they met on a well-known dating site is telling them that they love them (and maybe their children too). 5) They have been raised with enough faith in human nature that they just can't believe anyone could be cruel enough to go that far. For example, in one recent case I saw, a romance scammer, who was also corresponding with her as his "daughter" convinced his victim that his daughter was hit by a car going to her friend's house to check for email from the victim. The goal, of course, was to convince the victim that it was her fault that this poor girl was severely hurt, and get her to send money for "hospital bills". The victim believed it (but eventually discovered the truth for other reasons). This victim believed it had to be true because she could not comprehend how such a kind, gentle person (the role he was playing) could make up something so evil.6) They do not have an understanding of the banking system and they think that if the bank gives you the funds, a check must be legitimate (this is actually what the majority of the public thinks); 7) They aren't aware of how visa/passport rules work because they have never traveled out of the country; or having heard about the many things philanthropic organizations do, they truly believe that they are applying to a program where they can be educated in the US and get a job that makes a world of difference to their family (yes, I saw this specific scam, which was targeted at people in countries with extremely high poverty levels).8) They work for a nonprofit and are simply too trusting to believe that someone is playing them to steal money intended to help people or animals (I have seen several scams directed specifically at nonprofits).

Many people have been taught from childhood to have faith in their fellow human beings. This does not make them stupid, and it doesn't mean they deserve to have their lives ruined just because they have that faith. The more I see, the more I consider myself lucky that when I was a child, my parents didn't try to shield me from the outside world, but instead made it very clear early on that there is no such thing as a free lunch!

Originally posted by dotti:there are many perfectly innocent people who don't have the cynicism, resources, or understanding needed to identify every scam out there.

You're kidding, right? Why do you require cynicism to doubt that some random person on the 'net wants to give you money for nothing? You don't need to "identify every scam out there", just have an IQ above 50 and the ability to ask "why did I receive this unsolicited, too good to be true email?"

quote:

That does not mean you are a horrible greedy person who deserves to have your life savings stolen

They may not deserve it, but you can't give your own money to people you nothing about and then say "why me?!"

quote:

I admit that many times I look at the emails sent to a victim, see the horrible grammar and implausible story, and wonder how they didn't know. Then I realize that:1) English may not be their first language so they may not recognize all of the mistakes that are obvious to me.

This sounds plausible, but I doubt would account for any more than a tiny fraction of suckers.

quote:

2) If English is their first language, they might have learning disabilities, or they may have simply slipped through the cracks in a less-than-perfect educational system. Again, those mistakes may not be obvious. Ditto for mistakes in geography.

I don't buy it, if they're too stupid to see past the atrocious grammar and obvious scam, they're too stupid to have thousands of dollars handy to give away.

quote:

3) They might believe they have to make a payment to get a desperately needed loan because they have never had credit before and are desperate and trusting enough to believe the (sometimes very convincing) scammers that are supported by a plausible fake loan company website.

And we're back to greed.

quote:

Heck, the collections scams have even snagged some attorneys!

I've never seen a greedy attorney! </sarcasm>

quote:

4) They are lonely and sad, and someone they met on a well-known dating site is telling them that they love them (and maybe their children too).

This is the hardest of all to believe. Why the hell would anyone give money to a complete stranger they've never met, on the basis they say "I love you (and you're little kids, too!)" If you're going to pay someone to say I Love You, you may as well go to a prostitute. If you're that insecure with your own company, money is the least of their problems.

quote:

5) They have been raised with enough faith in human nature that they just can't believe anyone could be cruel enough to go that far. For example...

I couldn't follow the scam. This woman, who apparently cares about her daughter, yet can't speak to her on the phone or visit or anything, will believe an email saying it's her fault her daughter is injured? The mother never bothered to simply call her daughter? I don't believe it. There is no possible way it's easier to pay a scammer mythical hospital bills than call and speak to her daughter (or the hospital). That's got nothing to do with evil, everything to do with stupidity. If stupidity hurt, that mother would be bedridden.

quote:

6) They do not have an understanding of the banking system and they think that if the bank gives you the funds, a check must be legitimate (this is actually what the majority of the public thinks);

I work in finance, and have heard just about every stupidity story you can imagine. My favourite is the guy that was sent a letter from GE Credit (legitimate business) saying they've been approved for a $15,000 loan. The guy spent it, and was shocked he had to pay it back. That's stupidity, not a scam. In Australia, finance works different to the US (e.g. we're not allowed to sell a debt, pretending it's an asset - we'll leave dodgy finance and cheque procedures to you guys).

quote:

7) They aren't aware of how visa/passport rules work because they have never traveled out of the country; or having heard about the many things philanthropic organizations do, they truly believe that they are applying to a program where they can be educated in the US and get a job that makes a world of difference to their family (yes, I saw this specific scam, which was targeted at people in countries with extremely high poverty levels).

That doesn't apply to the baiters or the suckers in the western countries we're talking about.

quote:

8) They work for a nonprofit and are simply too trusting to believe that someone is playing them to steal money intended to help people or animals

You've already done this with point 5.

quote:

Many people have been taught from childhood to have faith in their fellow human beings. This does not make them stupid,

No, faith in your fellow human beings is not stupidity, faith in random, too good to be true emails from god-knows-where makes them stupid.

quote:

there is no such thing as a free lunch!

It doesn't matter what your parents said or did, that quote is known throughout the western world to the point of cliche. It takes greed and stupidity to fall for these scams. They are obvious to everyone, the level of doublethink required to fall for them is beyond my comprehension. People obviously fall for them, I simply cannot see how they could be that stupid.

Give thousands of dollars away to someone you've never met? For what? It makes no sense, these people bring it on themselves.