tag:www.schneier.com,2015:/blog//2/tag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-2015-05-13T02:23:10ZComments for Internet Safety Talking Points for SchoolsA blog covering security and security technology.Movable Typetag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:1030011Comment from leo on 2012-12-08leo
Wow, G. could not be more wrong. Go work at a significantly large PD for a week in the crimes against persons unit or juvenile unit and see how many solicitation complaints come in. The list you give of people bringing attention to this are those that have access to the actual data regarding the threat. If it isn't in the news ... it's probably because it happens all the time. What percentage of car accidents make it into the news paper?]]>
2012-12-08T16:09:17Z2012-12-08T16:09:17Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:863484Comment from pfogg on 2012-08-30pfogg
@curtmack: Just so. Elected officials worry about public opinion (locally, due to elections, and regionally, due to higher-ranking office-holders). Complaints that don't have a cost in public support for elected officials can be ignored, and it's safest to do so (since any change might have such a cost). You stay elected if you judge these things well, and get booted if you don't. The appropriateness of the policy isn't a direct consideration, either way. My original point was that an appeal to reason won't lead a Vicar of Bray to adjust his position or take any kind of stand.

The solution, I think, isn't to become the one with the most leverage on policy, as that's hard to arrange, even harder to maintain, and just makes you the authority that has to be bypassed when you happen to be in the wrong. The trick is to switch to a system where there's more than just one approach available, so you can pick the one you like best.

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2012-08-31T03:46:26Z2012-08-31T03:46:26Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:861386Comment from r cox on 2012-08-28r cox
Not commenting on the validity of the point of view, i would like to provide some context, recalling that this is directed towards superintendents, not people who are on the ground.

B. Not all teachers are competent in the use of computing technology. The coordinator therefore has to work in this context, not an idealization of the upper administration. Often the idea that the technology coordinator works for upper administration, not for the teachers is the cause of the problem.

C. Recall that most students in most school districts are under 13. Most resources a pushed to this audience. It may hurt the minority of students who are 14-18, but there it is.

F. In a lab situation 100% safety is often achieved. School have gone for years without a serious injury in a chemistry or electronics lab.

G. School introduces tools and resources slowly. We do not give a soldering iron to a student without instruction on it's use. Most school are not going to take a field trip to the federal prison. I know this is hyperbole but really effort is taken to allow children to grown, not just throw them in the ocean and make them swim.

I. Everything happens within a context of intentional scaffolding. Expectations are set high, but a framework is carefully built to allow students and teachers to reach those expectations safely.

N. A decreasing number of teachers live, or even grew up, near where the students live. Teach for America, for instance, often will move teachers across a number of states to teach in urban environments in which the are absolutely unfamiliar. If you teachers do live in the community, more power to you, but many do not.

Q. I do not know what the definition of trust here. Do your trust a teacher to spend the night with a kid, or even stay in the same room unaccompanied with a kid? Discuss.

V. Exactly. Use the Intertubes to teach, do not just throw them in front of it like a TV.

Y. Schools need to use this hyperconnectivity to teach, and students need to learn it as a tool. How many people do you know who just the computer to play games and the phone to get dates?

Again, I do not disagree with anything in particular, just wondering where he is coming from in terms of context.

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2012-08-28T21:14:59Z2012-08-28T21:14:59Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:861337Comment from Richard Belisle on 2012-08-28Richard Belislehttp://belislesecurity.blogspot.com/
Great points. However, H. is not totally accurate. For many institutions that receive federal money in regards to technology or E-Rate discounts, they have to adhere to CIPA, http://www.fcc.gov/guides/childrens-internet-protection-act. Draconian or not, schools get audited regularly for all sorts of stuff.]]>
2012-08-28T20:04:04Z2012-08-28T20:04:04Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:861049Comment from SnallaBolaget on 2012-08-28SnallaBolagethttp://snallabolaget.com
...and why was this list "surprisingly sensible"?
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2012-08-28T12:25:53Z2012-08-28T12:25:53Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:860614Comment from Dirk Praet on 2012-08-27Dirk Praet
+1 for the voice of reason.]]>
2012-08-27T23:29:37Z2012-08-27T23:29:37Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:860321Comment from curtmack on 2012-08-27curtmack
On an unrelated note, my college used to block mail client SMTP. So you'd have to send mail through the online interface.

Thankfully, they did realize that the real problem was Exchange Server and switched to Gmail the next year.

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2012-08-27T16:46:44Z2012-08-27T16:46:44Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:860305Comment from nycman on 2012-08-27nycman
Isn't half of security CYA? And if you're somehow responsible for security, it's a heck of a lot easier to set it at most restrictive and move on to the next problem. It's up to other stakeholders to push back, or fight it out with stakeholders of differing opinions. Most security controversies on this board can be boiled down to the CYA effect.

In corporations the profit motive tends to push back overzealous security officers, but in other areas, the people who are fearful are going to push a lot harder than the people who are inconvenienced or trying to uphold some ideal. So you pander to fear, set it at deny all, then go from there.

When I was in 3rd grade we took legal action against my school district for violating federal mandates regarding my autism (namely, the part where they have to make reasonable sanctions to accomodate it, such as not calling the police when I raise my voice in class). Their punishment was... oh, wait, nothing. The only thing that happened was that I was allowed the privilege of going to another school district.

You see, in this grand state of Nebraska, schools can only suffer legal repercussions if they appeal the initial decisions. Now, I need your guys' help here, because I can't possibly see a loophole here. As far as I can tell that system is perfectly secure!

You better believe they're still abusing disabled kids. Most recently I heard from a kid who was locked in a closet for upwards of 3 hours.

Unfortunately I can't reveal the district because my mom owns a store in the area, and the people on the school board very much have the clout in town to get her shut down. Same reason she can't openly support liberal causes (because, yeah, you probably could have guessed these people are also conservatives).

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2012-08-27T15:47:42Z2012-08-27T15:47:42Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:859945Comment from pfogg on 2012-08-27pfogg
@Karellen - For anyone working in generally visible public sector jobs, any sort of resistance to following current public sentiments, at least if it can't be explained by blaming circumstances beyond the administrators' control, is perceived as 'taking a stand' against public opinion. Resistance in this sense would include 'educating the public' if currently desired policies weren't implemented while the education was going on.

If the sentiment is "we're frightened, this is awful, do something", a public administrator is likely to have to implement bad policies long before 'education' would have any effect.

@Otter - I'm speaking exclusively about U.S. schools, as I have no direct experience with others.

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2012-08-26T06:34:20Z2012-08-26T06:34:20Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:858737Comment from Gweihir on 2012-08-25Gweihir
@Lucien: "Very close to " does not count. It uses the language of fear to imply "as good as" when it was definitely not so. (Hint: Was your child raped? How many more steps were needed to that outcome? At how many point could that outcome have been prevented?) What counts is actual numbers of children that fell victim to this and they are low enough for this to be a non-issue when compared to other, very real, dangers.

Also, children are generally not stupid. Protecting them from dangers they can grasp only makes them more vulnerable because it denies them an important learning experience. Stop crippling children that way! The only way for them to be reasonably safe is if they develop a sense for danger. They cannot do that if they are protected from any and all dangers.

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2012-08-26T01:58:43Z2012-08-26T01:58:43Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:858277Comment from Karellen on 2012-08-25Karellen
@pfogg: Educating people is somewhat different to "taking a stand against" them. Educating is not just telling people you're right (and they're wrong). That's browbeating, not educating.]]>
2012-08-25T12:51:25Z2012-08-25T12:51:25Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:857439Comment from pfogg on 2012-08-24pfogg
From the article: "L. If your community is pressuring you to be more restrictive, that’s when it’s time to educate, not capitulate."

Administrators of schools operating from public funds can't take a stand against the public. In the public sector, a sufficiently strident small group, or a single lawsuit, can easily prompt political action that gets them reprimanded or fired, and then the bad policies get implemented, regardless.

The advice in this article would be more compelling if schools were in a 'marketplace': Find a reasonable balance between safety and effectiveness, and you'll end up producing a more attractive product (wider, more balanced education), and attracting more paying customers (parents who want their kids optimally educated).

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2012-08-25T00:00:34Z2012-08-25T00:00:34Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:857394Comment from Howard on 2012-08-24Howard
"E" sounds like an NRA talking point, as the gun-control discussion would have a very similar aspect.]]>
2012-08-24T23:08:36Z2012-08-24T23:08:36Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:857346Comment from boog on 2012-08-24boog
I can appreciate K. I remember back in school, when students misbehaved in the computer labs, they were denied access thereafter. I can only assume this still happens.

There's nothing like punishing a student by banning them from an education.

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2012-08-24T21:58:09Z2012-08-24T21:58:09Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:857261Comment from NobodySpecial on 2012-08-24NobodySpecial
We can learn from teaching sex education in schools.

If we simply disconnect schools from the internet, don't mention the internet and have a zero-tolerance policy for anyone bringing an internet connected device to school - then there is no way that the school can be responsible for any online threat.

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2012-08-24T20:27:59Z2012-08-24T20:27:59Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:857256Comment from bethan on 2012-08-24bethan
G is there because the reactionary behavior to the relatively rare instances of this happening have certainly contributed in an increase in this type of crime. Kids are less likely to report indicating behaviors out of fear that parents/adults will freak.
As you say, Lucien- open, calm, and proactive discussion of appropriate and safe behavior, as well as what to watch for and why, is the best prevention against predatory crime.]]>
2012-08-24T20:18:34Z2012-08-24T20:18:34Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:857255Comment from wumpus on 2012-08-24wumpus
Nice list. My issue is that I don't see a single thing on the whole thing that will make a school administrators job safer or easier. My guess is that if anything happens and you are following this list instead of being appropriately terrorized, you will have an amazing time justifying your actions after the fact.

Humans: smart enough to see our flaws (on other people), not smart enough to avoid them in ourselves. I'm not even sure school administrators can aspire to this high.

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2012-08-24T20:18:11Z2012-08-24T20:18:11Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:857253Comment from cakmpls on 2012-08-24cakmpls
Jason! That's exactly what I was going to say. The whole group being punished/penalized for the actions of a few, or even one, seemed almost the rule back when my kids were in school--especially K-8.]]>
2012-08-24T20:15:18Z2012-08-24T20:15:18Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:857237Comment from Glyndwr Michael on 2012-08-24Glyndwr Michael
Very good. I'd say most of that applies to anything done in the name of "safety". ]]>
2012-08-24T19:55:55Z2012-08-24T19:55:55Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:857212Comment from Lucien on 2012-08-24Lucienhttp://www.webwisekids.org
Bruce -

While I am in agreement most of the points here, I do take exception to G. This does occur. It happened to my daughter - she came close to being the victim of a predator. It also happened to a friend's sister and she wasn't so lucky. Check out our stories at www.webwisekids.org. See "Katies Story"

The solution is not draconian measures but openness and education and in this I am in complete agreement with the author. I believe this can be done without exaggerating the extent of the problem.

Full disclosure - I was so grateful for the help and support that we received from Webwise Kids that I'm on their Advisory Board.

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2012-08-24T19:24:42Z2012-08-24T19:24:42Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:857189Comment from Jason! on 2012-08-24Jason!
Actually, I'd take issue with "E". I remember school routinely penalizing the 95% for the actions of the 5% in pretty much all areas of discipline.]]>
2012-08-24T18:52:44Z2012-08-24T18:52:44Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:857188Comment from Jeremiah on 2012-08-24Jeremiah
Harvey,
I believe your addressing "Robbins v. Lower Merion School District" in your cough cough comment. Which would be disingenuous to the topic at hand. These are point regarding an institutions practice of designing effective policies.

The issue is when the institution is the perpetrator. Largely a different topic.

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2012-08-24T18:52:11Z2012-08-24T18:52:11Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4483-comment:857178Comment from Harvey MacDonald on 2012-08-24Harvey MacDonald
"...The 'online predators will prey on your schoolchildren' argument is a false bogeyman...the number of reported incidents in the news of this occurring is zero..."