Yes, I went back for a while. But I've observed the group for years and followed this board, which has been a great help. I prefer some anonymity, so I'll comment through YouTube. Thanks for listening!

Yes, I went back for a while. But I've observed the group for years and followed this board, which has been a great help. I prefer some anonymity, so I'll comment through YouTube. Thanks for listening!

Yes, I went back for a while. But I've observed the group for years and followed this board, which has been a great help. I prefer some anonymity, so I'll comment through YouTube. Thanks for listening!

Yeah, I think you may go back to observe the situation in LC for a while and let us know its advance. I thought then you were Texas street preacher because your voice sounds like him.

Turns out the "Lord's Recovery" is not as unique as it claimed. It is actually a very typical controlling, abusive group, manifesting all ten characteristics of a "cult" as specified by the Cult Education Institute.

I do think there is one thing that might warrant a different perspective — not necessarily in the videos, but in our thinking. We constantly look back at the LC in the 60s and at least part of the 70s and think about how much certain things were so good.

And they were. But I am not sure that the LC was responsible for that. If you had your ear to the ground, so-to-speak, concerning trends in Christianity, there were many movements in the same direction. the LC was not the first inner-life group to come along. They were not the only group pushing more spiritual views of Christian practices. There were many. My family (I was in high school at the time) was enticed because it tapped into a kind of teaching that was coming from several directions around us.

That we now find more of mainstream Christianity speaking of things that they were not talking about in the 60s and 70s is not about the influence of the LC. It is about the influence of a diverse movement that had great impact on the whole. And so much of that movement was found within the churches it would eventually impact. Or by the people from those churches who also were involved in those inner-life groups.

Unlike the LC which attracted people away from others into a separate fold. The people who come to be part of the LC were people who had some desire toward where that kind of movement was going. They just got caught up in the LC's version of the movement.

But you are right that the LC has stagnated, going nowhere since that time. Why? Because the things that really made the LC were not the inner-life movement, but the specialties of their teaching. Ground. MOA. Deputy authority. God's best. The "up to date move of God." And so on. What was motivating about the early LC was the people who came seeking that inner-life. That were about unity, oneness, fellowship, etc. Things that were forefront at first. Once they were trapped in a system that convinced them they could not go, the joy began to fade. They still grind it out, but it does not look the same anymore.

__________________MikeI once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken — Edge (with apologies)

Do you have transcripts, or is it strictly to be heard? I'm not suggesting turning it into a book format, though that might be something to consider, but putting it into a format readable by a Nook or Kindle app would be nice. It's harder to stop a YouTube video at any point and then return a day later. Close the browser and you are left either starting over or fishing for where you left off.

I realize that 15 to 30 minutes each is not particularly long, but either I need to carve it up, or put up with others complaining that I am taking too much time at any point.

__________________MikeI once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken — Edge (with apologies)

Hi, I think it would be good to address the matter of how the leaders in the Recovery not only claim "deputy authority" but they equate their "authority" with the Old Testament authority that certain people obviously had like Moses (and not so obviously had like Noah).

The leaders in the Recovery claim that if someone disagrees or "opposes" or "rebels" against them that they will suffer God's judgment as if one rebelled vs. Moses. Yet with Moses, you had all the accompanying signs of one that represents God in the Old Testament, i.e. commanding 10 supernatural plagues, helping to save and lead all the Israelites out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea, meeting with God at Mt. Sinai, receiving the 10 commandments, guiding the Israelites through the wilderness with miraculous manna, water out of a rock, cloud during the day, fire at night, etc, etc.

Now there is a big change in the New Testament and how authority is handled. Where are the accompanying signs of the leaders in the Recovery? No signs? So how can they claim the same consequences if one "rebels" against them.....

Hi, I think it would be good to address the matter of how the leaders in the Recovery not only claim "deputy authority" but they equate their "authority" with the Old Testament authority that certain people obviously had like Moses (and not so obviously had like Noah).

The leaders in the Recovery claim that if someone disagrees or "opposes" or "rebels" against them that they will suffer God's judgment as if one rebelled vs. Moses. Yet with Moses, you had all the accompanying signs of one that represents God in the Old Testament, i.e. commanding 10 supernatural plagues, helping to save and lead all the Israelites out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea, meeting with God at Mt. Sinai, receiving the 10 commandments, guiding the Israelites through the wilderness with miraculous manna, water out of a rock, cloud during the day, fire at night, etc, etc.
Now there is a big change in the New Testament and how authority is handled. Where are the accompanying signs of the leaders in the Recovery? No signs? So how can they claim the same consequences if one "rebels" against them.....

Great points, Raptor, and I would add that Moses himself made it clear that Jehovah would one day raise up a Prophet like himself. (Deut 18.15)

There is exceedingly strong and overwhelming evidence that this coming Prophet was not Joshua, David, Peter, Paul, Nee, Lee, or Blended Wee, but Jesus, and only Jesus, who built God's house. (Hebrews 3.1-6)

And btw, here is a great polemic, written from the background of a false prophet from Arabia who also claimed Moses' authority, that connects Moses and Jesus is so many ways.

__________________Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

I saw this comment on your channel: "Cal is so right when he says that "deputy authority" according to Witness Lee is the doctrine of demons. Paul said something similar to Timothy in I Tim 4.1-3. I'm sure Timothy wondered how "forbidding to marry, and abstaining from certain foods" could be so dangerous. But they were. Church history tells us this conclusively. The popes have also claimed to be the "deputy authority," the vicar of Christ, and popes throughout history have killed more genuine Christians than the Roman empire. This doctrine of "deputy authority," might be the worst doctrine there ever was because it can so easily abused by fallen men."

__________________Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

Thanks for doing these videos, they are clear and to the point. I hope that people in the LC will come across these and listen to them.

The shepherdingwords.com tries to downplay the purpose and intention of LC teachings like deputy authority. WL's Pasadena conference is the perfect example of the fruit of that kind of that teaching.

__________________Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Good point about the ethical issues of Daystar. After 40+ years, there really isn't anything that could be done about the legal issues anyways, so the fact that they chose to use that as their argument definitely is a big smoke screen.

That was something I noticed right away when reading the article. They completely sidestepped any of the ethical issues.

__________________Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

"These guys are the most exclusive ever, they won't even be buried next to a non LCer."

.................................................. ...........

Hi Cal,

Have you done a segment on the Recovery burial ground at Grace Terrace Memorial Association in Rose Hills Memorial Park Cemetery?

Talk about fleecing the saints! LSM operates their own cemetery. They claim that you can get buried with the "holy saints" rather than with those "worldly" Christians. Anybody want to get buried next to Philip Lee? That will cost you extra.

__________________Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

"These guys are the most exclusive ever, they won't even be buried next to a non LCer."

.................................................. ...........

Hi Cal,

Have you done a segment on the Recovery burial ground at Grace Terrace Memorial Association in Rose Hills Memorial Park Cemetery?

Talk about fleecing the saints! LSM operates their own cemetery. They claim that you can get buried with the "holy saints" rather than with those "worldly" Christians. Anybody want to get buried next to Philip Lee? That will cost you extra.

I've talked about it a couple of times, but not in detail. Like I said, you can't make this stuff up!

Yeah, I think you may go back to observe the situation in LC for a while and let us know its advance. I thought then you were Texas street preacher because your voice sounds like him.

Naw this is very different. I can sense this brother is speaking truth in love in these youtube videos. I listened to all of them in a few days and it cheered my heart. When I saw the videos of Texas street preacher, it is hardly accurate and he is acting like a bully, and I can't sense any anointing. If The Lord ever spoke through a member, I am certain it wouldn't be like this. (Yes we can recognize his voice). He is merely just judging another and will probably fall into judgment himself. These youtube videos by "cal", as I see it, is spiritual discernment. The only thing I wonder about is who he is, and why he remains incognito, because I would like to send him a few questions any way to contact you brother "cal"?

I've been in fellowship with people meeting as the church and reading "the ministry" for 15 years, but the Lord has spoken to me and warned me about being proud, exclusive and falling into empty rituals. Sadly, (this is my personal belief I guess) I think many churches in the Lords recovery, even if the Lord came back, many of these brothers and sisters would still have the Lords table in their traditional way without realizing He came back. I hope I am wrong! The only pathway I see now it to practice to have brotherly love to ALL Christians, not insisting on anything, and personally living in the condition of Philadelphia. When these videos of "Cal" came out, it was like everything the Lord had spoken to me was articulated and it was great joy to me. I now meet with a few other Christian groups, but that isn't easy as well. In the Lords recovery I felt it was one extreme, reading ministry too much, but in the Christian groups i found another extreme, meeting where it all becomes a social arena instead of getting into the Word together. Being a Christians isn't too easy, I confess 😳 anyway thank you so much for the videos and please keep them coming. I hope also many that are currently in the Lords Recovery can listen to them and challenge themselves and search their heart in light of these videos. As soon as a group thinks it is above others there should be a red flag.
Sincerely from a seeking brother in Europe

The only thing I wonder about is who he is, and why he remains incognito, because I would like to send him a few questions any way to contact you brother "Cal"?

SeekeroftheFullTruth, Thanks for your post! I have a wonderful solution to your problem. Simply send an Email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com requesting membership for the forum (I have reserved "SeekeroftheFullTruth" for you to have for your UserName). We will shoot you back a temporary password and then you can communicate with Cal and others on the open forum, or through the Private Messaging system.

Looking forward to hearing from you!

Your brother who is unto Him
-

__________________Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Ephesians 3:21)

As for my identity, I've always worked under a pseudonym on this forum, as most of us have, and it just seemed natural to continue that way. I prefer to protect my privacy as well as my family and to keep my options open. I've noticed though with Facebook now, many are speaking out about the LR under their real names, which is great. It's a new generation!

But UntoHim is right, if you get an LCD login, we can communicate with the personal messaging system here.

Thanks again for your kind words!

Just a note that I am going to try to take some time off and figure out which direction to take things going forward.

You mentioned in this YouTube presentation that Witness Lee after a Thanksgiving Conference in 1988 held an elders’ meeting on November 27, 1988, in the meeting place of the church in San Gabriel.

If you go to the Thread Bill Mallon’s Passing you will see a post by Thankful Jane dated 10-5-2019 in which she shares:
Some here may be interested in the link below that contains many handwritten notes by Bill Mallon made during two periods of Local Church "rebellions" (1977-78 and 1987-1992).

These notes are collaborative historical evidence that will aid in confirming what is true about these two so-called "rebellions." (Many of today's church-kids were born around the time Bill was making these notes.) His notes have not been made public before now. Over the years, the Living Stream Ministry leadership has rewritten history to support their own narrative (their cover-up) of the truth about things that happened during these so-called rebellions.

Out of respect for Bill, before reading any of his notes please read first all of the material in the topic/thread that begins with “Bill’s Request: ...” (It is also found at the link below.)

Bill Mallon Speaks Posthumously

When you click the above link and look in book VIII of Bill Mallon’s notes (11-23-88 to 1-4-89), specifically photocopies DSC03077 to DSC03080, you can read in real time what Bill was told by John Ingalls after this elders’ meeting. John Ingalls tells Bill that “W.L. is hardened, and almost wild, raving, vindicating himself.”
Please note the Topic entitled “Names of Leaders that Correspond to Initials Used in Bill’s Notes” for assistance with the abbreviations.

You mention John So in this YouTube message and the one-publication edict.

I would refer those who are interested to go to Book III of Bill Mallon’s notes (see my post #68 for details.)

Specifically note photocopy DSC02543 In a conversation with John Ingalls on 1-7-88 in which J. I. says John So tells about Germany, that the saints there know “Mt 16 is the foundation of the church, that it was not given by W. L. or W. N., but the Father. No new way for Ecclesiastes states there is nothing new under the sun. He said he is happy they are far away, that Germans are not gullible.”

Also DSC02589-2590 “Don Rutledge urged me to call John So.” 3-2-88
“P. L. was on John So’s case for 2 years. 5 bros went to Germany to bring printing under Str control and to get them to submit to P. L. But John So couldn’t for conscience sake tho he gave them the liberty. 5 bros got daily instruct from P. L. Then Germany was cut off from Liv Str. Germany sent 4,000 sheets camera ready to L. Str but not printed… John So and Germany in old way. Str set up office in Eng and tried to cut off Germany, cause prob among Eng churches. Also now bros in Switz have permission to print anything but exclu Germany.”

__________________Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

I listen to these videos every day, and then I start all over again. I found this to be good antidote, and it helps me to wash away all the deception of the whole "ministry spirit" that is in LR and has crept into my heart without me noticing it. Today I called an elderly couple I havent had fellowship with since about 2010 because they "left." I took the word of the blended brothers, something like: "they are rebellious, full of death, opposing the Lord." It was some wonderful 58 min long fellowship ended by prayer. I discovered, they are not rebellious, not full of death and they are not opposing the Lord. They are opposing a ministry that replaces Christ as the solid Rock! As soon as I dropped the seperating wall A.K.A the ministry spirit, the foundation was there right away for life-giving fellowship with my beloved brother and sister I didnt reach out to for so many years. Immediately the love of Christ could flow between members. I got a deep realization of what Paul wrote: "Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you (Roman 15:7!)."

I heard Ron Kangas had said: Steve Issit is a man of death. And from the little I heard, he seemed to mock John Ingalls for following in the conscience, (I am sorry if I misunderstood this)
Ron Kangas will reply to the King: Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
King Jesus will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

Today I called an elderly couple I havent had fellowship with since about 2010 because they "left." I took the word of the blended brothers, something like: "they are rebellious, full of death, opposing the Lord." It was some wonderful 58 min long fellowship ended by prayer. I discovered, they are not rebellious, not full of death and they are not opposing the Lord. They are opposing a ministry that replaces Christ as the solid Rock! As soon as I dropped the seperating wall A.K.A the ministry spirit, the foundation was there right away for life-giving fellowship with my beloved brother and sister I didnt reach out to for so many years. Immediately the love of Christ could flow between members. I got a deep realization of what Paul wrote: "Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you (Roman 15:7!)."

googlelight, thanks for sharing this testimony.

This is exactly how LSM divides the body of Christ on a personal level.

__________________Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

Simply put, I'm trying to say that Lee's view of the Trinity focuses on unconcious, impersonal processes (dispensing) rather than conscious, personal relationships (persons in fellowship), and that this lends to or parallels the LR's tendency to have a warped view of relationships.

I do not know whether Lee's view of the Trinity informs his view of relationship or vice versa. But I believe there is a connection.

The word we should think of when we consider the Trinity should be "relationship" before "dispensing."

I do not believe one who truly appreciates the love between the Father and the Son, which is the Spirit, can have the cold, distant view of relationships that the LR has. That is, something is wrong with their fundamental view of God himself. Again, they focus on process rather than relationship. For example, they concern themselves more with "being transformed" and "making the kingdom" than they do with loving God and getting to know him.

Simply put, I'm trying to say that Lee's view of the Trinity focuses on unconcious, impersonal processes (dispensing) rather than conscious, personal relationships (persons in fellowship), and that this lends to or parallels the LR's tendency to have a warped view of relationships.

I do not know whether Lee's view of the Trinity informs his view of relationship or vice versa. But I believe there is a connection.

The word we should think of when we consider the Trinity should be "relationship" before "dispensing."

I do not believe one who truly appreciates the love between the Father and the Son, which is the Spirit, can have the cold, distant view of relationships that the LR has. That is, something is wrong with their fundamental view of God himself. Again, they focus on process rather than relationship. For example, they concern themselves more with "being transformed" and "making the kingdom" than they do with loving God and getting to know him.

Thank you Cal! I am trying to figure out your age (I guess I am just humanly curious). Contentwise, it seems like you have lived together with Methuselah, becoming 969. But Given you started to fellowship with LR at around 18+ in the 70s, it seems reasonable that you are between 60 and 70. I dont need an answer. My guess would be 64.

I thank you for your service to the Body of Christ. May your videos enlighten all. It is evident that you are not against anyone, but simply speaking the truth in love. For those in the bubble, you are probably now the enemy. I think there will be a time in near future 1 - 5 - 10 years, the Lord will descent to the ministry city, and the ministry tower man has built, and if it pleases Him, he will say: "Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other" Genesis 11:7. I may stand corrected, but if this nevertheless happens, I think your videos Cal will help so many confused Christians, hopefully as much as it has helped me.
Today I have found more healthy Christians, where there is the liberty of the Spirit. The meetings are not perfect, and there are many things I am not used to, but I tell you, when I leave that group of Christian, I sense I am filled with love toward them, they hardly do anything right, but they love the Lord in a simple way. Again, thank you for your service Cal. Dont stop!

hi Cal
You are one small potato. A small member in Christ just as all other members of the body of Christ.
Cal is only one of the YouTuber of The Age.
No offense.
You are 'matured' enough, by your own definition.

Hello Cal,
I want to respond to your alternative proposition of the inner workings of the trinity. E35

I appreciate all the work and time you are putting into your youtube channel. What you have presented on the trinity certainly does address what lacks in WL’s assessment of who the trinity is. Weather true or not I don’t have enough insight to tell, but it seems far safer than The LC teaching on the trinity. I share your concerns about the damage it, along with much else that comes with the package of the LC, does to the people ensnared in it. I think it takes courage as well as work and time to deliver the messages on your channel.

I find Cal’s posts in themselves demonstrate what the local church lacks….rational, logical, sensible thought processing with a good dose of common sense. Its hard to argue against those and sound plausible, really.

We all rely on, and trust in, a legal system that bases its evaluations on the same principles. Where would our justice system be without them? And therefore our society? Stepping away from those principles is dangerous, in my view. It leads to superstition, and superstition is based in fear. It reverts to an uncivilised way of functioning, actually. A way that western civilisation broke out of as it developed the rule of law, human rights, scientific methodology, democracy etc. all these things are only possible with rational and logical thinking, something WL clearly had no appreciation or understanding of in its history or significance. He didn’t really understand the west, it’s clear. And he clashed against it when he turned against his American followers.

I hope I haven’t rambled.

Cal’s posts demonstrate good sound thinking as well as good conclusions. It’s clear he has given it all deep thought over a long period of time. It’s also noteworthy to me that he is not showing partiality. E28, ‘racism or sexism’ is one example amongst others, where he holds back and is not interested in blanket accusations beyond what he is certain of from his experience. (Those who have such experience can voice those grievances on this forum, and elsewhere, without clashing with him). This is what integrity does. An important detail to be respectful of too.

I hope he keeps going for as long as he feels lead to. I’ll be following them!

hi Cal
You are one small potato. A small member in Christ just as all other members of the body of Christ.
Cal is only one of the YouTuber of The Age.
No offense.
You are 'matured' enough, by your own definition.

Is your point that you feel I've lifted myself up? If so, can you tell me why you feel that way? When did I say I've matured enough? If I said something like that you probably took it in a way I didn't mean. I certainly have more maturing to do.

I hope he keeps going for as long as he feels lead to. I’ll be following them!

I very much appreciate the support. And what you say I hope is true of me.

As 'least' said, I'm just one small potato. I don't have all the answers, I just have my view and feel led to make these videos at this time. I have no idea how long I will feel led to continue, but I hope people know that I'm not trying to make a name for myself or anything like that. I'm just trying to use the gifts and skills the Lord has given me for the good of his kingdom.

Not everything I say is going to agree with everyone. Realize that I'm not trying to define what should be true for everyone, but rather simply my own beliefs and views.

Again, they focus on process rather than relationship. For example, they concern themselves more with "being transformed" and "making the kingdom" than they do with loving God and getting to know him.

I agree. From my memory, the stress was on individual performance. "Eating Jesus is the way", "turn to your spirit", "let's all gain Christ", and similar phrases, got the individual to focus on their own "experience and enjoyment", versus the experiences of Jesus Christ adjudicated by his relationship with the Father.

The experience of Jesus, on earth, v/v the Father in Heaven is amply documented, and I've covered it in such detail that many readers will be bored to tears, so I'll keep it short. "He (the Father) rescued me (the Son) because He delighted in me" in Psalm 18, for instance clearly was corroborated by NT statements that the Father delighted in the Son. We hardly need to cite them, but here's a slow-pitch softball: "This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I delight. Hear him", e.g., Matthew 3:17; 2 Pet 1:17; cf Matt 17:5; 12:18.

When you see it, it's soooo obvious what's happening in the text: the Son loves the Father and obeys, the Father delights in the Son and raises him from the dead and gives him glory, and a kingdom that never ends. There's a relationship here that's constantly implied and often stated quite plainly, and is seen consistently in the doings of both parties.

Now, in covering Psalm 18, for instance, either WL would say, "No, God didn't delight in David - David was a sinner", or he'd say, "This is the NT believer enjoying grace on the proper church ground." But in the middle there's a big hole, where the actual person Jesus Christ lived - yes, in "coinherence" (or consubstantiation or what silly physics-level-term we use) - with the Father and by the Holy Spirit.

Sorry to rant but it's been a bit of a peeve - we arguably got short-changed, and the effect's been huge. Instead of focusing on Jesus the Christ as the Way to the Father, we'd focus on self-performance, which was whatever the MOTA wanted us to do, usually for 'ministry' benefit. Then the manipulative demands would begin - look at any HWMR outline, and count how many "we need to" and "we should" and "we must" are embedded in the text. It's rife with them. All WL's unmet needs got placed on the believer, with "making it" and "overcoming" and so forth connected with local church activities and performances. It became about one's relationship to ministry demands, with a distant and abstract "processed God" receding over the conceptual horizon.

"There is a lack of genuine care for people simply as people, there is a lack of love for people as people"

Cal, you have a gift. Keep going with your videos as the Lord leads you, you're doing a great job and helping people with your words (Ephesians 4:29, Proverbs 12:18) at least they have helped me to better understand the LC and given me the reassurance I needed at my darkest night, I couldn't thank you enough.

God bless you and the rest of pure hearts in this forum.

Psalm 118:5-6 “Out of my distress I called on the Lord; the Lord answered me and set me free. The Lord is on my side; I will not fear. What can man do to me?”

__________________Jer 17:7 "Blessed is the one who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in him"

Cal, you have a gift. Keep going with your videos as the Lord leads you, you're doing a great job and helping people with your words (Ephesians 4:29, Proverbs 12:18) at least they have helped me to better understand the LC and given me the reassurance I needed at my darkest night, I couldn't thank you enough.

God bless you and the rest of pure hearts in this forum.

I'm so glad you've been helped! Thank you.

Yes Lord! Bless the folks on this forum, on Facebook and all those who have joined together to help each other!

As an outsider, its pretty obvious:
'God's economy' implies He's a businessman. A business man is trading, selling a product (the ministry), the agenda is to promote the success of His business. Persons are merely commodities in this grand business. In every business, a commodity is only of value in so far as it's earning its way to expand your business, and drawing in the customers. Otherwise it's expendable. A 'product' has no intrinsic value in itself beyond this.

When you think in terms of 'Gods economy', the language of WL gives it all away. everything Cal is saying.

I never heard the concept of God as 'Father' mentioned at any time by LCers I knew and fellowshipped with. This was an early question mark for me. The sense of the sanctity of human life is therefore not indicated, a clear aspect of Christianity that sets it apart from other religions of the world.... except not if you are in the LC, sadly.

(it occurs to me that maybe WL was thinking about his own business ambitions more than we realise and this spilt over into his theology!)

Jesus died on the cross (apparently) because he was busy 'processing' himself, He was on his own mission. That takes the focus away from being motivated by love or the value He places in you and me. Its as if the core is gone, WL removed it.

As an outsider, its pretty obvious:
'God's economy' implies He's a businessman. A business man is trading, selling a product (the ministry), the agenda is to promote the success of His business. Persons are merely commodities in this grand business. In every business, a commodity is only of value in so far as it's earning its way to expand your business, and drawing in the customers. Otherwise it's expendable. A 'product' has no intrinsic value in itself beyond this.

When you think in terms of 'Gods economy', the language of WL gives it all away. everything Cal is saying.

I never heard the concept of God as 'Father' mentioned at any time by LCers I knew and fellowshipped with. This was an early question mark for me. The sense of the sanctity of human life is therefore not indicated, a clear aspect of Christianity that sets it apart from other religions of the world.... except not if you are in the LC, sadly.

(it occurs to me that maybe WL was thinking about his own business ambitions more than we realise and this spilt over into his theology!)

Jesus died on the cross (apparently) because he was busy 'processing' himself, He was on his own mission. That takes the focus away from being motivated by love or the value He places in you and me. Its as if the core is gone, WL removed it.

Very well said. The LR is all about "accomplishing God's purpose," and people are just means to that end, and thus expendable in the hands of the "co-workers" in that effort. People are valuable only to the extent they further the cause, otherwise they are just a problem.

But such an attitude make God's love hollow. In truth, the only thing that could have motivated Jesus to suffer and die on the cross the way he did was pure love--love both for the Father and for us. He endured it all for us, each one of us. That's love.

In a couple episodes you have mentioned Ron putting down listening to the conscience. Do you know where/when that was said and the context? Is there somewhere that could be listened to or anyone who has an excerpt of that?

In a couple episodes you have mentioned Ron putting down listening to the conscience. Do you know where/when that was said and the context? Is there somewhere that could be listened to or anyone who has an excerpt of that?

I don't know the whole context, but his point is clear. He is saying that John Ingalls was wrong for having a conscience problem with the way Philip Lee was handled. He is saying that "life" supersedes the conscience. This is not a healthy teaching.

Can you explain in detail how the LC downplay relationship? I know as a member you can have no friends but hanging around with their members. Is that what you mean?

The LR in general discourages close relationships with anyone not in your immediate family. (I've even heard them teach "don't love your wife too much.") They discourage friendships, both with people inside and outside the LR. Witness Lee often spoke about not being "buddy-buddy" with anyone. These types of relationships were considered "soulish."

The LR also has a strange view of our relationship with God, they talk more about "experiencing" Christ (in a rather impersonal way) than getting to know Him as a person.

And the LR has an extreme view of our relationships with ourselves. They believe in "denying" the self to the point of low self esteem.

All these approaches work together for the LR to isolate you emotionally and take control of your emotional life in order to become the controlling emotional factor in your life. According to them, your sole source of enjoyment should be your experience of God, which of course they define. This furthers their control.

I don't know the whole context, but his point is clear. He is saying that John Ingalls was wrong for having a conscience problem with the way Philip Lee was handled. He is saying that "life" supersedes the conscience. This is not a healthy teaching.

Thanks. Do you know where Ron said that? Was that at the recent summer training or somewhere else?

As an outsider, its pretty obvious:
'God's economy' implies He's a businessman. A business man is trading, selling a product (the ministry), the agenda is to promote the success of His business. Persons are merely commodities in this grand business. In every business, a commodity is only of value in so far as it's earning its way to expand your business, and drawing in the customers. Otherwise it's expendable. A 'product' has no intrinsic value in itself beyond this.

When you think in terms of 'Gods economy', the language of WL gives it all away. everything Cal is saying.

I never heard the concept of God as 'Father' mentioned at any time by LCers I knew and fellowshipped with. This was an early question mark for me. The sense of the sanctity of human life is therefore not indicated, a clear aspect of Christianity that sets it apart from other religions of the world.... except not if you are in the LC, sadly.

(it occurs to me that maybe WL was thinking about his own business ambitions more than we realise and this spilt over into his theology!)

Jesus died on the cross (apparently) because he was busy 'processing' himself, He was on his own mission. That takes the focus away from being motivated by love or the value He places in you and me. Its as if the core is gone, WL removed it.

You make some really good points here! I must admit I never saw "God's Economy" as such a central thing as some did. Even now, it is occasionally brought up here, but I don't think it has quite the same meaning as it did coming from WL. I got a lot out of the "Recovery" but at the same time it wasn't as much about the Person of Christ or our Father, as it was about the machinery that was God's economy. In other words, it was all about the purpose - God eternal has a purpose and He will get it regardless of you . . . and if you get in His way ----> SQUISH! You'll be flattened under the galactic steamroller.

After leaving the LC and drying out for several years, and coming to a place that didn't have that kind of spiritual baggage, I saw it was love that was His main motivation. As WL said near the end of his life, love was missing from the ministry, and I believe that to be quite true. Yes, God has a purpose, but the reason for His purpose is love . . . and the way He executes it is also all in love -- for us! We are brought into the love relationship between our Father and His Son!

A couple years ago we were going through some passages about His administration in His house (which can be called his economy). I saw that the order and the authority in the house was really for one key thing - so that everyone living in the house gets what they need - food, shelter, care, love and other attention. This is why there is an order . . . an administration - so that all God's riches can be loving dispense properly to all in need. It's the same in a human household - there needs to be some basic authority and headship. Why? So everyone can partake freely of all that the household has to offer. It's not "The economy stupid (as Clinton famously said);" it's love.

More looking at the controlling "Lord's Recovery" from a general view. In this video we encourage self-trust and the right to scrutinize any subject. Also information on Steve Hassan's BITE model of mind-controlling groups.

Dear brother, it is so lovely you put this out. Maybe the Lord did make you a sheep-shepherd afterall! People in the LR might react to it, or dont like the things you share, but this is just the system in them reacting, which is totally to be expected. With time, if they are truly seeking our beloved Lord with a pure heart, they will see! In particular I love how you managed to put out some 39 episodes now without bitterness, slander or anything of that sort. You just say it like it is, just as Paul did to timothy; "Alexander the coppersmith did many evil things to me; the Lord will recompense him according to his works." After I have listened to all these episodes in depth and taking notes, the outcome of it is that I have had much wonderful fellowship with a variety of christians in my city, and returned to following my conscience and listening to the anointing. I shared my experience with a couple in the LR and to my great surprise, they agreed to all the things I related to them. I have no intention for them to leave or not to leave, but just to return back to the Lord. Sadly, In LR usually returning to the Lord is equivalent to returning to life-study/MR/blended brothers up-to-date speaking/the Vision/The Ministry/The Speaking of the Body.
You dont believe me? Id say like Johnny Cash:
"There are some people who say we cannot tell...
Well, I was there when it happened and so I guess I ought to know"

"There are some people who say we cannot tell...
Well, I was there when it happened and so I guess I ought to know"

Thanks, gl. I appreciate it. I'm glad you've gotten some good out of them. I've had to throw out some of my attempts because I felt the spirit wasn't right. I just try to be honest and sincere and follow the Lord's guidance. And I try to not take myself too seriously.

The LR in general discourages close relationships with anyone not in your immediate family. (I've even heard them teach "don't love your wife too much.") They discourage friendships, both with people inside and outside the LR. Witness Lee often spoke about not being "buddy-buddy" with anyone. These types of relationships were considered "soulish."

The LR also has a strange view of our relationship with God, they talk more about "experiencing" Christ (in a rather impersonal way) than getting to know Him as a person.

And the LR has an extreme view of our relationships with ourselves. They believe in "denying" the self to the point of low self esteem.

All these approaches work together for the LR to isolate you emotionally and take control of your emotional life in order to become the controlling emotional factor in your life. According to them, your sole source of enjoyment should be your experience of God, which of course they define. This furthers their control.

All these teaching are unhealthy.

for them getting married without natural infection is fine, they said it's for the Lord. God obviously created us with the ability to favor and able to attract different gender, why such this weird group of people even exist?!

Hello. I want to go a step further to what Cal is saying on episode 43,’ The Linchpin of Control’, on the claim of 'shepherding words' that we should submit weather the leaders are right or wrong. I want to add the following layer of response to that directive: to submit to something that is clearly wrong, or ‘evil’ IS rebellion against God. We can’t serve two masters, when we serve one, we are automatically rebelling against the other.

To even attempt to make a theology out of allowing evil in the pursuit of God, is evil itself. Resisting evil is not easy and can be hugely costly. Going with the flow for self-protection and self- preservation has happened over and over in history, its what the masses do, not the exceptions who create change for the better.

Submitting to evil is rebellion against good (God), it is an inescapable truth. And if the church allows evil then it is tolerating Jezebel, not being the church in Philadelphia any more. Is that what the shepherding words are trying to tell us? They want to switch to be the church in Thyatira, just for a change?

How can the church be a testimony of God to the world if it allows evil to flourish without hinderance? The answer is simple, she can’t. there will be no testimony of God in her if she presents the character of the world. Satan is the ruler of this world, in other words, the world is already in submission to evil. THE difference between the world and the kingdom of God, IS who rules. Satan is God’s enemy, how can submitting to the enemy of your King be obedience to your King? This is completely non-sensical.

How could David have been forgiven and restored to God after Bathsheba if the prophet Nathan had not confronted him? He could’ve lost his relationship with God through it. Accountability is God’s grace to the leader, as much as for any other reason. The purpose is for restoration of that leader, not destruction.

To create a theology to avoid that shows great rebellion against the fundamentals of Christianity. Sorry, LC leaders. It’s a critical failure on your part. Bless you.

It depends on what we consider is "wrong." LSM built their teaching around Moses marrying a foreigner, and Noah drinking too much wine. They then infer that any error by The Deputy Authority, regardless of seriousness, is only a test to the rest of God's people. Any and all criticisms of this Deputy will result in swift judgment from God.

But look at the fruit of such a teaching. Has God really given a carte blanche license for some "Deputy" to sin? What then are the limits placed on his failures? And how is it that the Deputy alone gets to decide that he alone is the Deputy? At least the Pope has a college of Cardinals to select him.

Think about the lust for power which then inevitably develops in fallen leaders. Who would not want to be above the law concerning all their failures. I have long been convinced that the constant rivalry between Anaheim and Cleveland was due to such perks for the winner. Could not Lee's successor, the subsequent MOTA, now eliminate his rival by fabricated charges resulting in quarantine.

Does not these MOTA teachings, by definition, result in ecclesiastical politics? Is this not ruling like the Gentiles? Did not our Lord specifically warn us about this?

__________________Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

Think about the lust for power which then inevitably develops in fallen leaders. Who would not want to be above the law concerning all their failures. I have long been convinced that the constant rivalry between Anaheim and Cleveland was due to such perks for the winner. Could not Lee's successor, the subsequent MOTA, now eliminate his rival by fabricated charges resulting in quarantine.

Does not these MOTA teachings, by definition, result in ecclesiastical politics? Is this not ruling like the Gentiles? Did not our Lord specifically warn us about this?

Just read about a young man in the Philippines who left the RCC, tried several Protestant groups, flirted with atheism, then finally decided that he could recover God's original intended church, with himself as Executive Minister (naturally). This was 1914. He managed to convince thousands to follow him over several decades, then his son took over & globalised it and now they have several million adherents. Seems they teach that salvation is contingent on church membership, as all other groups are apostate.

Now the grandson's in charge, and he's purged other family members including his mother(!), and he's free to do as he wants. He's now the Executive Minister, after all. They make every congregation repeat the sermon from HQ every Sunday morning, play videos promoting the Executive Minister's leadership, warn members to stay away from the internet, social media and anyone who criticizes the church leadership, or who publicly note the EM's lavish lifestyle....

The more I read about such controlling and abusive sects, the deeper my suspicion that these aren't flawed five-talented ministers - Drunken Noah, anyone? - but rather one- and two- talented ones aiming for positions to which they've no claim to. It's exactly the gentile-styled "leadership" the Lord warned us about. Ohio is right.

Here's a powerful prayer as antidote for such fallen aims. Psalm 19:13(a) says, "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins". Those who fall into the sin of presumption will be sent down - Jesus' teaching made this clear. We're not ignorant of the enemy's schemes. There's little difference between Felix Y. Manalo and Watchman Nee, except the vagaries of geography and culture.

Hi Cal, just wanted to share this perspective from ones discussing the last few minutes of Minorus message to the sisters. I think you said you didn't listen to the whole thing? I didn't either, but this member (members?) found some cause for concern.

It just seems like the culture of silence Minoru is promoting amongst the sisters speaks in defiance of Gods' word....in the council of many is safety.....

It just seems like the culture of silence Minoru is promoting amongst the sisters speaks in defiance of Gods' word....in the council of many is safety.....

We're still waiting for the culture of silence to be broken.

MC: "And now we'll address any questions or issues you may have."

Sister X: ""I'm wondering when I can have my book published by LSM, to take its place besides the one by Mary McDonough. Why is LSM selling her book online, and not mine?"
MC: "I'm sorry, my dear sisters, but the door for revelation to sisters is now closed. Once Brother Nee put quill to parchment, that age ended, and a new age began. But don't worry, there's a place for you today, in the children's meetings."

Sister Y: "Brother Minoru, we can see in ministry literature that sisters once held responsible positions next to Lee and Nee. In writing on the resumption of Watchman Nee's ministry, for example, WL said that only two sisters sat up front with him as Nee talked, while the rest of the congregation was seated apart. So what happened to the role of women in the church?"
MC: "Again, my dear sisters, you have to understand that the age changed. Today, your responsibility is to be docile and listen to my patronizing lectures."

Sister Z: "Did anyone ever tell you that you're full of baloney?"

The counsel of many will be restored, as is stated in Proverbs. In many counselors, battles are one, and safety is secured. May the Lord grant all of us courage to seek this, and to speak out our counsel, and not give up. Minoru's a Christian confessor, yet at present he seems willing to live with such glaring contradictions (among many), and then becomes a tool of oppression and control.

In the church, it's the age of Jesus Christ, not the age of spiritual giants nor the age of small potatoes. Each one has a voice in the common counsel, and none should be denied. There's no male or female, young or old, slave or free man, Jew or Greek. rich or poor. If LSM Blendeds won't step up and lead believers into this, someone else will. A new day has dawned, the saints are going on.

Hi Cal, just wanted to share this perspective from ones discussing the last few minutes of Minorus message to the sisters. I think you said you didn't listen to the whole thing? I didn't either, but this member (members?) found some cause for concern.

It just seems like the culture of silence Minoru is promoting amongst the sisters speaks in defiance of Gods' word....in the council of many is safety.....

I took down that message after realizing it gave people an impression I didn't mean to give.

The only portion of the sisters message I listened to was that final 9 minutes in the link I posted. Minorus' message was very clear. When women speak, it is gossip. It saddens me to know this is the double speak all those sisters are receiving as 'coming from God' or 'a word from God'. I know that is what I used to think about the messages coming from the LC elder brothers.

Again, this conflicts with Gods will for us, coming together in 2s or 3s, in fellowship, in prayer. I don't know how that can happen if women are being indoctrinated that their interpersonal communication and sharing is nothing but gossip and should be avoided. Let me say here, I agree with God, gossip is not for believers. However, to proclaim this from the pulpit, and the weight this gives the leadership, is so wrong. The Lord Spirit is capable of leading our communications in holiness, and we can also know His voice.

Thanks for looking at it again, Cal. I probably don't know enough about this matter to comment either. But then again, I can't stomach listening to this 'ministry' anymore.

The only portion of the sisters message I listened to was that final 9 minutes in the link I posted. Minorus' message was very clear. When women speak, it is gossip. It saddens me to know this is the double speak all those sisters are receiving as 'coming from God' or 'a word from God'. I know that is what I used to think about the messages coming from the LC elder brothers.

Again, this conflicts with Gods will for us, coming together in 2s or 3s, in fellowship, in prayer. I don't know how that can happen if women are being indoctrinated that their interpersonal communication and sharing is nothing but gossip and should be avoided. Let me say here, I agree with God, gossip is not for believers. However, to proclaim this from the pulpit, and the weight this gives the leadership, is so wrong. The Lord Spirit is capable of leading our communications in holiness, and we can also know His voice.

Thanks for looking at it again, Cal. I probably don't know enough about this matter to comment either. But then again, I can't stomach listening to this 'ministry' anymore.

Sister X: ""I'm wondering when I can have my book published by LSM, to take its place besides the one by Mary McDonough. Why is LSM selling her book online, and not mine?"
MC: "I'm sorry, my dear sisters, but the door for revelation to sisters is now closed. Once Brother Nee put quill to parchment, that age ended, and a new age began. But don't worry, there's a place for you today, in the children's meetings."

Sister Y: "Brother Minoru, we can see in ministry literature that sisters once held responsible positions next to Lee and Nee. In writing on the resumption of Watchman Nee's ministry, for example, WL said that only two sisters sat up front with him as Nee talked, while the rest of the congregation was seated apart. So what happened to the role of women in the church?"
MC: "Again, my dear sisters, you have to understand that the age changed. Today, your responsibility is to be docile and listen to my patronizing lectures."

Sister Z: "Did anyone ever tell you that you're full of baloney?"

The counsel of many will be restored, as is stated in Proverbs. In many counselors, battles are one, and safety is secured. May the Lord grant all of us courage to seek this, and to speak out our counsel, and not give up. Minoru's a Christian confessor, yet at present he seems willing to live with such glaring contradictions (among many), and then becomes a tool of oppression and control.

In the church, it's the age of Jesus Christ, not the age of spiritual giants nor the age of small potatoes. Each one has a voice in the common counsel, and none should be denied. There's no male or female, young or old, slave or free man, Jew or Greek. rich or poor. If LSM Blendeds won't step up and lead believers into this, someone else will. A new day has dawned, the saints are going on.

Amen to moving on with Jesus, and away from this insidious LC imbalance. The Lord is awesome and I love witnessing the portion He gave to each member, both brothers and sisters. Balance is the word used and recognized in many Christian voices and perspectives, and it is the balance I so appreciate. Imbalance seems to be the fruit of believing your own little group has the only authentic view/speaking from God/practices.....

This morning I can't stop thinking how balanced everything will be when we are in His presence in heaven. He will restore it. Just as He will restore our souls!

I’m joining my comment to this teaching on: Noah cursed, and it caused great harm. It did not reflect God’s ways but rather the fallen human nature, in opposition to God’s character and intent. That’s a brief summary of what I hear in episode 52.

Now I want to go ahead in time to the establishment of the twelve tribes if Israel. To establish something God could bless, I see a reversal of what Noah did….I see the engaging of the principles of repentance and forgiveness as laying a necessary foundation for moving forward as the people of God.

Joseph’s brothers hurt him, Benjamin, and their father through their anger that they were treated badly while he was given special status. They sinned in a cruel way towards Joseph. Joseph was deeply hurt by what they did. Yet in the end they showed the depth of their repentance, and Joseph extended his heart and forgave them, genuinely. (…Another brief summary).

(A brief note, lots of bible commentators are harsh on the Joseph’s brothers. It helps to look at them with more compassion than traditional thinking affords them).

The story is a great example of how people can hurt each other in families, especially with favouritism. And is illustrates the principle in the Lord’s prayer ‘forgive us our sins (repentance) as we forgive those who sin against us (forgiveness).

As a conclusion, Israel could never have been established with its twelve tribes if this reconciliation did not happen. The forming of Israel as a nation depended on it. that is very significant.

Back to Noah, he could’ve repented to his son for his outburst. Ham could’ve forgiven his father, and it could’ve all been resolved using principles of God’s Kingdom, and the division would not have persisted. God’s prescription for repentance and forgiveness are His antidote for division, and destruction of relationships. Noah and his sons didn’t know that, and the rest is history, as outlined on the channel. The LRM of WL cannot avoid ongoing division unless they do it God’s way. God’s way works, as you can see from the story of Joseph, and is clearly instructed in the new testament.

By ‘cursing’ dissenters the LRM are acting in spiritual blindness and are validating the flesh as described by Cal. Noah didn’t know better, he wasn’t provided a new testament copy of the bible!!. But we don't have that excuse anymore, and neither does the LRM.

By ‘cursing’ dissenters the LRM are acting in spiritual blindness and are validating the flesh as described by Cal. Noah didn’t know better, he wasn’t provided a new testament copy of the bible!!. But we don't have that excuse anymore, and neither does the LRM.

If the Recovery teaching about "covering" were an actual truth of the Bible, then shouldn't King David have cursed the prophet Nathan for not "covering" him? (II Samuel 12)

David was, after all, the greatest anointed king of Israel. If ever there was needed this "covering" teaching it was for him.

__________________Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

By ‘cursing’ dissenters the LRM are acting in spiritual blindness and are validating the flesh as described by Cal. Noah didn’t know better, he wasn’t provided a new testament copy of the bible!!. But we don't have that excuse anymore, and neither does the LRM.

If the Recovery teaching about "covering" were an actual truth of the Bible, then shouldn't King David have cursed the prophet Nathan for not "covering" him? (II Samuel 12)

David was, after all, the greatest anointed king of Israel. If ever there was needed this "covering" teaching it was for him.

They might say that Nathan "uncovered" David in private. But the Bible records the uncovering. So much for David's privacy. They might said, well, David is not here anymore. But neither is Witness Lee. So why do they need to keep "covering" him? Wouldn't it be better if everyone was able to learn from his failures, as we are from David's? But then his mystique as MOTA would be compromised. Turns out that's what protecting his image is all about.

On episode 54 you question the confidence in which on their 'shepherding words' site, the apostles of the LR flatly deny what any ex-LC person knows to be, some of the very clear, core, defining beleifs about themselves. This is indeed, quite surprising, and you raise the question of what they may be up to.

To learn about the actual teachings of the localchurch, for a long time I tapped my questions into Google.... 'Witness Lee on (.......)', whatever I was puzzled about. It took me to 'life studies' and exerpts from various of his books. Some things I found that were the most revealing in the way that I could not accept as a christian, I can't find them anymore. They don't appear from the same word prompts.
I didn't keep a record of where they were so i can't trace them..... it's a while ago now. I think its possible they have re-edited WL's writings as supplied on the Internet, that way they can adapt, remove some of the more judgemental, hostile to Christianity in general, and ridiculous things, without acknowledging any mistake or alteration.

That's my suspicion....They are slowly and secretly adapting themselves to a more user-friendly model of operation. While denying any adaption. Even younger LCers were more accepting of other Christians than older LCers I experienced. That's my theory to offer anyway.

On episode 54 you question the confidence in which on their 'shepherding words' site, the apostles of the LR flatly deny what any ex-LC person knows to be, some of the very clear, core, defining beleifs about themselves. This is indeed, quite surprising, and you raise the question of what they may be up to.

To learn about the actual teachings of the localchurch, for a long time I tapped my questions into Google.... 'Witness Lee on (.......)', whatever I was puzzled about. It took me to 'life studies' and exerpts from various of his books. Some things I found that were the most revealing in the way that I could not accept as a christian, I can't find them anymore. They don't appear from the same word prompts.
I didn't keep a record of where they were so i can't trace them..... it's a while ago now. I think its possible they have re-edited WL's writings as supplied on the Internet, that way they can adapt, remove some of the more judgemental, hostile-to-Christianity in general, and ridiculous things, without acknowledging any mistake or alteration.

That's my suspicion....They are slowly and secretly adapting themselves to a more user-friendly model of operation. While denying any adaption. Even younger LCers were more accepting of other Christians than older LCers I experienced. That's my theory to offer anyway.

Curious, I think there is some of what you say going on. And the denial and duplicity which accompanies it, particularly the accusing others of slander, who are simply reporting what the LR has at least internally proclaimed and taught, is unacceptable.

If they are trying to improve their beliefs and message that is good, but to go about it by denying they have held to bad beliefs in the past, and further to accuse others of slander who testify to that, is not encouraging at all.

I agree with you Cal. If an organisation is fundamentally honest and able to be responsible, and take the rap itself for its own past mistakes and problems, then everyone is safe.

No-one is safe in an organisation where those in charge are fundamentally blame-shifters and liars, regardless of their potential doctrinal improvements. The habit of lying is problematic enough on its own and reveal where their hearts are at. Protecting, defending and justifying themselves and their pride while caring not who they turf under the bus to do so, reveals much about their heart and motives. Lies hurt people, there’s good reason why one of the 10 commandments instructs us not to do it. Its as plain and simple as that.

To lay themselves out honestly would be for them to trust God for the outcome, an act of actual faith on their part. To lie and cover up reveals no faith on God, nor fear of Him, nor love for Him (as to love him is to love His ways). That equation adds up to....no real belief in Him!

They do not demonstrate integrity, and in refusing to be vulnerable or duly responsible, they therefore remain immature, both personally and corporately. What a dangerous thing for anybody to offer trust into such a system. Anyone who does so puts themselves at great risk of harm, needlessly.

But we can all learn important lessons from exposure to this organisation, lessons that can be a great protection going forwards. That's the positive aspect which is ultimately the most important thing. May we all be transparent, honest, responsible for our own actions, and have the courage to be vulnerable, and never underestimate the value of integrity.

Lastly, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realise that in order to survive they do have to alter things that WL taught. Sites like this forum help them to identify what those things are, as they will be hard to see from within their closed system. They want to survive, but God doesn't endorse lying, to serve Him you have to play by His rules.

Curious, I think there is some of what you say going on. And the denial and duplicity which accompanies it, particularly the accusing others of slander, who are simply reporting what the LR has at least internally proclaimed and taught, is unacceptable.

If they are trying to improve their beliefs and message that is good, but to go about it by denying they have held to bad beliefs in the past, and further to accuse others of slander who testify to that, is not encouraging at all.

They are either clueless or liars.

Or maybe, like some other fringe groups of the past that eventually became more mainstream Christians, they are on the first steps of a journey from their fringe back into the fold.

Naaahhhh

__________________MikeI once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken — Edge (with apologies)

John Ingalls explains his experience in the required annual business meeting referred to in Shepherding Words. Brother Lee had strategically moved Minoru Chen into position as an elder in Anaheim.

Excerpt

"The business meeting and election were to take place on the Lord’s Day, March 5th. On Thursday evening, March 2nd, Al and I met with Minoru Chen and Philip Lim to discuss the agenda for the business meeting. Minoru made a point very strongly that according to our custom the directors should always be elders. In fact, without our knowledge, in the preceding Lord’s Day meeting on the Chinese-speaking side, Minoru had educated the saints to this effect, pointing out that in the coming election for directors, they should do the same on the English-speaking side. This we declined to do in the present divided situation, since the by-laws expressly stated that any member of the corporation could be nominated and elected to the post. We anticipated that this time we would have to vote by ballot as there would likely be more than one candidate nominated.

John Ingalls explains his experience in the required annual business meeting referred to in Shepherding Words. Brother Lee had strategically moved Minoru Chen into position as an elder in Anaheim.

Excerpt

"The business meeting and election were to take place on the Lord’s Day, March 5th. On Thursday evening, March 2nd, Al and I met with Minoru Chen and Philip Lim to discuss the agenda for the business meeting. Minoru made a point very strongly that according to our custom the directors should always be elders. In fact, without our knowledge, in the preceding Lord’s Day meeting on the Chinese-speaking side, Minoru had educated the saints to this effect, pointing out that in the coming election for directors, they should do the same on the English-speaking side. This we declined to do in the present divided situation, since the by-laws expressly stated that any member of the corporation could be nominated and elected to the post. We anticipated that this time we would have to vote by ballot as there would likely be more than one candidate nominated.

Interesting! Reminds me of the Midwest quarantines.

As DCP swept in to steal meeting halls, all the Midwest LC's were suddenly forced to examine their bylaws and prep the saints for contentious elections.

__________________Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

Wow, this episode is fabulous. All the episodes are good, and great, but this one really takes the axe to the root of the tree. And in a broader way. ANY group claiming this set of 'delusions' is exposed and therefore this episode is perhaps a very necessary guide to those leaving, as to what may feel familiar and attractive but is to be a red flag.

I have a friend who has gone through three exclusive groups, each time believing themselves to be in 'the one' true church. This friend cares nothing for listening to anyone outside their current group for advice, including me. This information is a great way to avoid that fate for those leaving the LC. Excellent work, and very relevant.

this is a masterpiece. But Cal you should share positive experience after you left and join other groups. I think for that you can have another 50+ videos, your channel is helpful for those who had left and still a believer of Jesus.

this is a masterpiece. But Cal you should share positive experience after you left and join other groups. I think for that you can have another 50+ videos, your channel is helpful for those who had left and still a believer of Jesus.

Thanks JiL, I have shared some positive experiences since the LR, things, but I will share some more. Thanks!

I wanted to thank everyone for their prayers and support. MyOpinionsFree would have never been possible without all I gained from Local Church Discussions and all my dear friends (and adversaries) here. It's been an amazing ride seeing our wonderful God step in and be our Defender and Vindicator. Please keep praying that the lies that blind our dear brothers and sisters in the LR will fall away and that the Lord's Church will be united in Him, and Him alone. You guys are the best! Take care.

Hey Cal, I realized later you covered everything I mentioned in my comment. (I listened to this installment with giggling 6 and 11 year olds literally crawling all over me.) Next time I will slow down and listen to the whole thing before I start ranting.

Hey Cal, I realized later you covered everything I mentioned in my comment. (I listened to this installment with giggling 6 and 11 year olds literally crawling all over me.) Next time I will slow down and listen to the whole thing before I start ranting.

I didn't think you were ranting. I always appreciate your comments They've been a big help. Yep, kids and puppies can be a distraction, but they are worth it. I'm dealing with the latter right now.

Brothers at LSM / E-manna appear to be following Cal Freeman's posts on Apostleship. Their fellowship might help us, while they, perhaps, might pick up key and essential points from Cal.

The Fellowship of the Apostles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Bible Verses~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Acts 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the teaching
and the fellowship of the apostles, in the breaking of bread and the prayers.
2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Words of Ministry~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Part 2 of 2]
The word "fellowship" used in Acts 2:42 and 1 John 1:3
indicates the putting away of private interest and the joining with others for a certain common purpose. Hence, to have fellowship with the apostles, to be in the fellowship of the apostles, and to have fellowship with the Triune God in the apostles' fellowship, is to put away our private interests and join with the apostles and the Triune God for the carrying out of God's purpose. Our participation in the apostles' enjoyment of the Triune God is our joining with them and with the Triune God for His divine purpose, which is common to God, the apostles, and all the believers.

The fellowship of the apostles is open, receiving all kinds of genuine believers in Christ. For example, this fellowship receives believers who have been immersed and believers who have been sprinkled. Furthermore, those in this fellowship do not require that believers be immersed only by them.

However, certain sects insist that only their baptism is valid. They may insist that a believer be baptized again if he wants to join their group. This is an illustration of a fellowship that is different from the fellowship of the apostles.

Do you know how to determine whether or not a particular Christian group is a sect? One way to determine this is to check whether or not that group receives all real believers in Christ. Any group that does not receive all true believers is a sect and is not practicing the fellowship of
the apostles.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

Bible verses are taken from the Recovery Version of the
Bible and Words of Ministry, from Witness Lee, Life-
study of Acts, pp. 93-94. Both are published by Living
Stream Ministry, Anaheim, CA.

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Thank you for this profound video.
I got EF. 4:16 while listening.
The Body.. Builds up itself in... love
Not through the ministry of the age, or Gods economy... In love. Thank you. This is true light...it has set me free

Thank you for this profound video.
I got EF. 4:16 while listening.
The Body.. Builds up itself in... love
Not through the ministry of the age, or Gods economy... In love. Thank you. This is true light...it has set me free

Episode 74, I just want to say, excellent! So clear-thinking and wise to seperate the good out, and name it. Amongst this list are the things that I liked and was drawn to, the functioning of the believers to share together that makes things interactive and alive, rather than always sitting and listening to a speaker only. And pray-reading within the context Cal outlines has really helped me absorb mentally and spiritually from what I read, a practise I have taken on with me too.

This episode is excellent in helping to redeem the good from this movement, cutting through the confusion, which is one of the biggest issues for all of us impacted by the LRM. I predict it to be of immense benefit to those leaving and trying to sort it all out. Its really a true 'balancing word'!

This is a great video. So many of the problems within the LC are related to things like their authority structure or lack of humility. It's hard to believe how they can remain so oblivious to some of these readily apparent problems like their public perception, members leaving, etc.

Before I left, it seemed like there was was an ever-increasing disregard for current members who were struggling or who might be considering leaving. Even just in general, the LC didn't give any thought to making the environment the type of place that people would want to be part of.

__________________Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

This is a great video. So many of the problems within the LC are related to things like their authority structure or lack of humility. It's hard to believe how they can remain so oblivious to some of these readily apparent problems like their public perception, members leaving, etc.

Before I left, it seemed like there was was an ever-increasing disregard for current members who were struggling or who might be considering leaving. Even just in general, the LC didn't give any thought to making the environment the type of place that people would want to be part of.

It is the lack of humility why there will not be repentance, reconciliation, or reform. I know it will be refuted, but the fruit of deputy authority doctrine is pride.
The LC is fully rejecting any culpability why members leave. It's completely owned by those who leave. It's usually labeled by any number of adjectives as the cause why brothers or sisters leave.
The LC attitude is that of a math formula. Just plug yourself into the ministry and the ministry will take care of you.

__________________"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt

And then they circle tighter and shun the struggling member so their echo chamber reinforces itself all the more.

It's sad because the effect is on human lives. But since they circled tighter they don't see the effect. And even when they do see the effect, they, uncomprehendingly, don't care.

They are so steeped in a ministry that requires them to suspend logical thought to accept it that when they are confronted with reasonable discourse and logic it literally does not compute. It truly is so strange to encounter.

And then they circle tighter and shun the struggling member so their echo chamber reinforces itself all the more.

It's sad because the effect is on human lives. But since they circled tighter they don't see the effect. And even when they do see the effect, they, uncomprehendingly, don't care.

When I hear "shun" as it relates to the LC I always think of the Amish practice. There is little difference. Why would you turn your back on someone just because they leave your group!? This is so silly and unbiblical. I can't think of anywhere in scripture that this sort of thing is even vaguely mentioned - am I wrong? While there are places in the word that speak of distancing oneself if a brother is in gross sin or strongly divisive, but nowhere does this extend to what we are talking about here - someone who is merely questioning and perhaps just wants to leave (or has left).

The only reason I can see the LC does this is a defense mechanism - man's attempt to protect a system and control something they don't like. Well boo hoo, show some maturity and get over it! Love and acceptance is to be extended to every member of the body of Christ - NO EXCEPTION. And especially not for some trivial and silly notion like this!

Where I've fellowshipped these past couple decades, many have come and gone for various reasons, including some that didn't quite agree with what was going on here. NOT ONCE have I seen the saints here SHUN someone because of this kind of nonsense. On the contrary, there is a lot of reaching out to just have simple fellowship in the enjoyment of Christ with one another, regardless whether they see fit to meet with us or not. And even if they don't want to come to a Sunday ministry gathering, oftentimes they show up at smaller fellowship and bible study gatherings.

Yes, opinion is certainly the work of the devil in us. Adam and Eve had no opinions or nasty soulish 'feelings' before the fall. We know this because it must be so, so that Witness Lee is proved correct.

Also, God forgot to put this in the 10 Commandments. After all, it was a stressful time with the Israelites rebelling at the bottom of the mountain the whole while. it must have been very distracting!

I’m sure if Jesus’ ministry lasted more than 3 short years, he would’ve remembered to mention it too. Good thing WL was able to articulate it for the Godhead….better late than never I guess…..it just proves his value as MOTA.

However, shocking though it may seem, there something even WORSE than opinion (and peculiarity-another gem of wisdom from the riches of WL’s ministry) Yes indeedy there is. And I’m here to let everyone here know what that is……it is being magnanimous. WL saw the danger in this as even worse than having an opinion. It is having an opinion that he couldn’t get at!!!!

You can find his insight on this matter covered in his book “The experience of Life” chapter 10, section 8-9, or Google ‘Witness Lee magnanimous’.

To hold one’s own counsel and keep ones own opinions to oneself, to have emotional self-control and be generous hearted enough to tolerate the differences of others, to also perceive the futility of arguing a point when hearers would clearly reject any discussion…..all these are more dangerous and sinister than merely having an opinion.

(Additionally, they are so frustrating when you are attempting to steam-roller a person into submission, where do you lever-up an edge, gain an advantage over someone who cannot be riled, and try as you may, you can't force to engage on your terms? I’m sure nothing could be more frustrating for our poor MOTA than this ability to remain not susceptible to his efforts to get inside someone’s head!)

Somewhere that I can’t find it continued to say that having an opinion and emotional reaction is better than being magnanimous, as at least there is an opening to 'deal with' the person in the case that what is inside them is not under their own control! (my summary of the text).

According to WL, to be magnanimous means to be ‘self-righteous’, ‘arrogant’, ‘blind’, ‘in spiritual darkness’, a ‘Pharisee’ who ‘will one day open their mouth and pour out all these pent-up opinions’! ('Gems' from the text referred to above).

So wise of WL to understand the English language better than English speakers, and to redefine our words for us, oh and also to guide us away from scriptures on love. How deceived we would otherwise be!!!

Interestingly also, WL contradicts all this completely, in his writings on 'emotions'. What he says there instructs his followers to keep feelings and reactions very much to oneself. to be 'mild', 'temperate', 'restricted' and 'restrained', 'polite' and 'self-controlled', 'tranquil'..... magnanimous, perhaps? ["Lessons on Prayer" chapter 7 section 3, easy find by google 'Witness Lee on emotion'].

Therefore, perhaps we can conclude that to treat LC’ers we know with a magnanimous attitude, will be one of the most effective ways to disintegrate their system of thinking. Showing them by example the way of love as outlined in the Corinthians verses above, and being non-reactive to their efforts to control seems to be one thing WL could not conquer in a person. Just a thought that comes to me as I write this.

Yes, opinion is certainly the work of the devil in us. Adam and Eve had no opinions or nasty soulish 'feelings' before the fall. We know this because it must be so, so that Witness Lee is proved correct.

Great points, Curious. I just love how a little sarcasm can be used to expose some of the worst nonsense surrounding WL's own opinions.

__________________Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

I can't help but wonder if the 10 commandments were rewritten to reflect WL's theology, what would that read like?

1. Follow Witness Lee to be accepted by God
2. Read no other ministry besides Lee's
3. Do not notice contradictions in Lee's ministry
4. Remember to attend every feast given by Lee or his protegees
5. Honor Lee as your spiritual father
6. Thou shalt spread the threat of death to any who speak up
7. Thou shalt not have a conversation with the opposite gender
8. Thou shalt be robbed of healthy human enjoyments at every turn
9. Thou shalt slander anyone who rightly identifies false apostles and wolves
10. Thou shalt spit on all other Christians outside my little publication kingdom

Thankyou for that. Interesting you validate my sarcasm, I am embracing it, I see it has it's place.

I can't help but wonder if the 10 commandments were rewritten to reflect WL's theology, what would that read like?

Sarcasm does have a place. Both Jehovah in the Old and Jesus in the Gospels have used it effectively.

It was consideration of the 10 Commandments, specifically God's righteous standards, that helped clear my own brain fog concerning the many claims of the Recovery. How could the Lord endorse, or even bless, Recovery leadership after reading John Ingalls' truthful account of events? Lee and sons had egregiously violated every command of God.

As Trapped has enumerated, the commands of God must be rewritten for those in "the know," referring to the Blendeds, whose collective conscience has been seared by compromise.

__________________Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

Good video. It really can't be emphasized enough that if the LC ever did or still does have anything beneficial to offer, it has nothing to do with the claims that they make for themselves.

If they would just open their eyes, they might realize that outside interest in their group remains very low, they are struggling to retain the members that they do have, and nobody besides them has really heard of or even reads WL's books. If they feel they have something so great and valuable, they might want to just consider why nobody else seems to care.

__________________Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.