Yeshuaism, I think you have a very narrow understanding of halacha and Jewish exegesis as it relates to this topic, if you indeed have any at all. I encourage you to learn more about Jewish understanding of both Sodom and the passages from the Mosaic codes. There is some very interesting discussion of the Hebrew term translated as "abomination," among a whole host of other things. Not to mention a few legal principles that certain Orthodox rabbis are, as of the last several years, willing to apply to the situation of homosexuals and homosexuality (and I'm not talking about "Orthodox" rabbis like the one that actually purported to marry a gay couple a while back).

I think telling somebody to leave (even your own child) is appropriate.

If your child is homeless, high on drugs and living in a subway tunnel, would you be proud of yourself for putting your child out of the commune because your child was gay? Better example, your child takes his/her own life because of being stigmatized for being a homosexual, how would you react?

So there were a bunch of men who wanted to have sex with the angels (who looked like men to them). They were pounding on Lot's door. Lot was like "here are my virgin daughters instead". The men didn't want them, they wanted men.

Did you ever stop to ask why they suddenly wanted to have sex with those particular men?

They were strangers. Foreigners. Those of Sodom didn't just say, "the Sodom lottery has selected so-and-so and so-and-so for gay gang rape tonight!" Injustice to strangers and travelers is a major theme throughout the Old Testament. That, not homosexual disposition, was their sin.

This is also one of the major scandals of Genesis: Just as Abraham was made to sacrifice his son, Lot sacrificed his virgin daughters---members of his family tribe--- for the sake of strangers, on account of their holiness. This is an anti-tribalism account, more scandalous to ANE peoples for its transcending of tribal ties than for its unmercifulness to the virgins or Abraham's son.

When they refuse my correction under my roof, they are independent enough to provide for themselves.

The Bogomil/Cathar roots of Anabaptism always circle back around, now and again.

Okay, they were straight... You guys got me.

Perfectly heterosexual for a GROUP of straight men to want to have sex with two men. Even on the account of being offered women and in a city where women existed.

I guess I'll just have to give up the argument.

I am not slaying the prophets. I am slaying a ridiculous argument that the men in Sodom were straight and did not practice "laying with other men", which is an abomination to God.

I don't care if men in prison who rape men claim to be straight. Any man that would rape another man that way loses all credibility to me on telling the truth. If they do that act, prison or not, their sexuality is warped at least.

I think telling somebody to leave (even your own child) is appropriate.

If your child is homeless, high on drugs and living in a subway tunnel, would you be proud of yourself for putting your child out of the commune because your child was gay? Better example, your child takes his/her own life because of being stigmatized for being a homosexual, how would you react?

YIM fancying himself the father of the prodigal son in five, four, three . . .

I think telling somebody to leave (even your own child) is appropriate.

If your child is homeless, high on drugs and living in a subway tunnel, would you be proud of yourself for putting your child out of the commune because your child was gay? Better example, your child takes his/her own life because of being stigmatized for being a homosexual, how would you react?

Yes I am aware. There are also Orthodox Christians that feel the same way. It doesn't make it right. The vast majority of the Orthodox don't agree with it, and neither do the Mennonites.

Quote 2: God eradicated Sodom. Didn't mean all homosexuals.

Quote 3: Sometimes a person has to go down on their luck to find their way. Sometimes it kills them. Sometimes they become the prodigal son. You can only pray. If my "adult" son refused my authority in my home, yes I would throw them out. If they got on drugs, had lots of gay partners, and were homeless, I would not bring them back into my home to torture the rest of my family.

I think telling somebody to leave (even your own child) is appropriate.

If your child is homeless, high on drugs and living in a subway tunnel, would you be proud of yourself for putting your child out of the commune because your child was gay? Better example, your child takes his/her own life because of being stigmatized for being a homosexual, how would you react?

YIM fancying himself the father of the prodigal son in five, four, three . . .

So this is about demonizing me, no matter how right it is. BtW, not fancying myself of nothing.

I think telling somebody to leave (even your own child) is appropriate.

If your child is homeless, high on drugs and living in a subway tunnel, would you be proud of yourself for putting your child out of the commune because your child was gay? Better example, your child takes his/her own life because of being stigmatized for being a homosexual, how would you react?

YIM fancying himself the father of the prodigal son in five, four, three . . .

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

I know. Soon Orthodox will believe that Leviathan was a manatee and other horrible faith-destroying things.

Logged

Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

You guys would support a gay son on drugs in your home, allowing him to be gay

How are you gonna not allow him to be gay?

Logged

Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

I think telling somebody to leave (even your own child) is appropriate.

If your child is homeless, high on drugs and living in a subway tunnel, would you be proud of yourself for putting your child out of the commune because your child was gay? Better example, your child takes his/her own life because of being stigmatized for being a homosexual, how would you react?

YIM fancying himself the father of the prodigal son in five, four, three . . .

So this is about demonizing me, no matter how right it is. BtW, not fancying myself of nothing.

The reason you thought of this... Because it is right.

No, just cause the hubris of your posts is rather predictable.

What age would you toss your child in the street again for not submitting to your whims?

You do realize this is EXACTLY NOT HOW THE PARABLE GOES.

THE FATHER DOESN'T THROW THE CHILD OUT.

Am I wrong here? Again I only watch an animated version of the Bible once, so I could be.

You twist Scripture into your own warped ideals about parenting and being a husband.

You guys would support a gay son on drugs in your home, allowing him to be gay

How are you gonna not allow him to be gay?

You tell him of the scriptures, how God finds it to be an abomination. Tell him its a sin. Inform him if he continues to seek out males for relations that he is no longer going to be living under your roof.

WAIT a second guys....Seriously...

The Eastern Orthodox Church has EXCOMMUNICATED people for being homosexual and refusing to change their ways.

What the heck are most of you on my back for?

YOUR CHURCH has done this. So stab at the Hutterites, Mennonites, and Amish who also have. Stab at the scriptures and my personal feeling on the matter of raising children.

NOW - this is for everyone - go to your church that has done the exact same thing.I can name TWO NAMES of Homosexuals that I know of PERSONALLY who were excommunicated. One was a priest, the other a laymen. I've read of monks have been excommunicated for homosexuality. I've read of many laymen excommicated for homosexuality.

Say the creed with pride, because you either toil in hypocrisy (as the EO church excommunicates homosexuals as well), or reject the decisions of your church.

If my "adult" son refused my authority in my home, yes I would throw them out. If they got on drugs, had lots of gay partners, and were homeless, I would not bring them back into my home to torture the rest of my family.

How would you know that your "adult" son would torture the rest of your family with his presence? Besides, not every homosexual is a homeless drug addict with multiple partners. Plus, the sin of practicing homosexual relations once or one million times can be forgiven in confession; if the person chooses to go that route. Example, prison rape - that can be forgiven in the confessional. Of course, the Hutterites don't have Confession as they prefer to shame and humiliate people who go against them.

You guys would support a gay son on drugs in your home, allowing him to be gay

How are you gonna not allow him to be gay?

You tell him of the scriptures, how God finds it to be an abomination. Tell him its a sin. Inform him if he continues to seek out males for relations that he is no longer going to be living under your roof.

WAIT a second guys....Seriously...

The Eastern Orthodox Church has EXCOMMUNICATED people for being homosexual and refusing to change their ways.

What the heck are most of you on my back for?

YOUR CHURCH has done this. So stab at the Hutterites, Mennonites, and Amish who also have. Stab at the scriptures and my personal feeling on the matter of raising children.

NOW - this is for everyone - go to your church that has done the exact same thing.I can name TWO NAMES of Homosexuals that I know of PERSONALLY who were excommunicated. One was a priest, the other a laymen. I've read of monks have been excommunicated for homosexuality. I've read of many laymen excommicated for homosexuality.

Say the creed with pride, because you either toil in hypocrisy (as the EO church excommunicates homosexuals as well), or reject the decisions of your church.

While I was typing 4 new replies... Wow.

You know what attracts flies like no other?

(hint: it ain't honey.)

I am going to lock this up because I think the passions are running way to high, and the polemics are getting way too ugly and personal. Have a spiritually profitable Nativity Fast. Carl Kraeff

NOW - this is for everyone - go to your church that has done the exact same thing.I can name TWO NAMES of Homosexuals that I know of PERSONALLY who were excommunicated. One was a priest, the other a laymen. I've read of monks have been excommunicated for homosexuality. I've read of many laymen excommicated for homosexuality.

If my "adult" son refused my authority in my home, yes I would throw them out. If they got on drugs, had lots of gay partners, and were homeless, I would not bring them back into my home to torture the rest of my family.

How would you know that your "adult" son would torture the rest of your family with his presence? Besides, not every homosexual is a homeless drug addict with multiple partners. Plus, the sin of practicing homosexual relations once or one million times can be forgiven in confession; if the person chooses to go that route. Example, prison rape - that can be forgiven in the confessional. Of course, the Hutterites don't have Confession as they prefer to shame and humiliate people who go against them.

That type of adult son, would be refusing the authority of the head of the home (scriptures). In my opinion, if he refuses this authority, he is independent and needs to provide for himself.

The Eastern Orthodox Church has excommunicated many laymen and clergy for being homosexuals and refusing to stop their behavior.

You are wrong about the Hutterites. They do confess to one another as the scriptures and the Early Christians did. The Hutterites would accept a person seeking repentance from the sin of homosexuality so long as they are humble about it. Just as I would accept my own son who is humble about repentance from the sin. Just as the Eastern Orthodox faith would accept a humble person seeking repentance about homosexuality.

What I am talking about, and what the churches do is excommunicate (kick out) people who "justify" and refuse to change their homosexual behavior.

I do not believe people are born homosexuals. I believe it is a sin that people struggle with and justify.

NOW - this is for everyone - go to your church that has done the exact same thing.I can name TWO NAMES of Homosexuals that I know of PERSONALLY who were excommunicated. One was a priest, the other a laymen. I've read of monks have been excommunicated for homosexuality. I've read of many laymen excommicated for homosexuality.

Let me make this more clear than I have, it seems I am not being clear enough.

Said young man (25?) *had* been a homosexual.

He went to a program which sounded like a Bible School Summer Camp, which would top any I had to go, to for homosexual adult men.

One parts of the "therapy" was aversion therapy.

They would watch homosexual pr0n and be given corrective electric shocks when showing arousal or confessing to it. Again not ECT. Think low power cattle prod.

Other nutty stuff went on, including watching heteropr0n and attempting to be aroused by it and masturbating to it.

I would typically call nonsense on such hearsay, but I have heard of such things elsewhere.

And this person told me this in complete candor and believed it worked.

(If you met him for a second you know it hadn't and if you knew him well enough it was certain something was quite amiss.)

He did the program "voluntarily" and around 22 years of age.

It could be utter nonsense, but I frankly find myself rarely fooled by people in RL. And his storied seemed quite earnest and while touting his treatment as successful the pained confusion in wich told the story seemed to make it rather credible.

FWIW.

I heard this story about six or so years ago. I remember it quite well. A gay pride parade happened to be going by (the low key variety) and he seemed put very off by it in spite of it being not much more than a two dozen people carrying "Gay Pride" posters in rainbow lettering. I asked about his odd reaction to the non-event.

Psychologist Douglas Haldeman writes that conversion therapy comprises efforts by mental health professionals and pastoral care providers to convert lesbians and gay men to heterosexuality by techniques including aversive treatments, such as "the application of electric shock to the hands and/or genitals," and "nausea-inducing drugs...administered simultaneously with the presentation of homoerotic stimuli," masturbatory reconditioning, visualization, social skills training, psychoanalytic therapy, and spiritual interventions, such as "prayer and group support and pressure."[10]

Yesh seems to claim to 'know personally' or have seen first-hand an awful lot of things.

Yesh, how long have you been a bishop? You get to decide on excommunications now? Where did you get this notion that all homosexuals are instantly expelled?

First you have to stop plugging words, because that is deception, a form of lying. Ironic in the case that the tone of your post is calling me a liar.

I did not say "instantly".

Second I've been Eastern Orthodox for most of my life.My Father (as in dad) was an Eastern Orthodox Priest for the OCA & ROCOR.Been to seminary myself, left.Been to Mt. Athos.Been to countless monastaries.Been to a WCC event that ruined it all.

When you lived a life growing up in the OCA, you tend to meet people. When you lived at St. Vlad's as a child (2 years), you know people. When your parents run a larger EO church (dad fully paid - no side jobs) you know people. When you go to St. Vlad's as an adult, you know people. When you visit numerous monastaries, you start knowing many people.

So what do I have to do to prove it to you? Shall I describe the dorms at St. Vlads? The Waterfall? The Library? How about the children's club house? Or the back of the kitchen at the mess hall. How about the creek at St. Vlad's? There is a steep hill that leads up to the dorms and apartments at St. Vlads. I recall 1 speed bump. There is also a regular home on the way up the hill. The hill continues very steep that swoops around the side of the dorms where kids & students sled in the winter.

Or the Monastery in Hiram, OH, and how their beautiful guest house burned down (lightning) that we visited numerous times which was a 10 hour drive. Monasteries in Kemp, TX. Numerous Monasteries in Colorado. Monasteries in Austin, TX. Monasteries on Mt. Athos? Individual basement churches, home churches.... Perhaps I should describe Presbyter Green or Bishop Dimitri at St. Seraphim's in Dallas...

You guys would support a gay son on drugs in your home, allowing him to be gay

How are you gonna not allow him to be gay?

You tell him of the scriptures, how God finds it to be an abomination. Tell him its a sin. Inform him if he continues to seek out males for relations that he is no longer going to be living under your roof.

WAIT a second guys....Seriously...

The Eastern Orthodox Church has EXCOMMUNICATED people for being homosexual and refusing to change their ways.

What the heck are most of you on my back for?

YOUR CHURCH has done this. So stab at the Hutterites, Mennonites, and Amish who also have. Stab at the scriptures and my personal feeling on the matter of raising children.

NOW - this is for everyone - go to your church that has done the exact same thing.I can name TWO NAMES of Homosexuals that I know of PERSONALLY who were excommunicated. One was a priest, the other a laymen. I've read of monks have been excommunicated for homosexuality. I've read of many laymen excommicated for homosexuality.

Say the creed with pride, because you either toil in hypocrisy (as the EO church excommunicates homosexuals as well), or reject the decisions of your church.

While I was typing 4 new replies... Wow.

You know what attracts flies like no other?

(hint: it ain't honey.)

Ironic that most of the posts prior were commenting on porn & electric shock. Who posted that?

I find it hilarious that Yesh would make a gay son homeless in order to get him to stop having gay sex...something tells me a gay homeless teen will probably wind up having more gay sex than he'd like to.

I find it hilarious that Yesh would make a gay son homeless in order to get him to stop having gay sex...something tells me a gay homeless teen will probably wind up having more gay sex than he'd like to.