Date: 12/08/2003
Intro: Local climber, Dr. Julian Saunders, BMSc BSc MHSc, with degrees in
Sports Physiology and Osteopathy runs
Athlon Sports Medicine in Melbourne. He has several impressive first
ascents to his credit, having put up the Grampians routes Lifestyling (31)
on Spurt Wall and Breathing Gasoline (31) at Millennium Caves in 2000, and
Bossanova (31), just left of Chicane on Afterglow Wall in December 2001.
He's also a keen boulderer, repeating numerous hard problems and creating
lines such as a V10 at Rumbler Wall in the Grampians. He has been unable
to avoid a certain degree of fame after his picture appeared on the front
cover of Simon Carter's popular "Rock Climbing In Australia" photography
book. Photos of his bold ascents continue to pop up in climbing calendars,
magazines and instructional books. Chockstone found Julian at that classic
haunt of Arapiles climbers, the Natimuk pub, working the pool tables with
a large group of friends, kicking back after a long days play on the
rocks. A brief conversation later, and this interview was arranged.

Q: Once upon a time you
were new to climbing. How'd you get started? Did you have a mentor? Can
you recall your first experiences on rock?

Like most people who started
climbing more than 10 years ago, I discovered it at university, in my case
La Trobe Uni mountaineering club. I had just broken up with my girlfriend
at the time and was currently not cycling on account of an elbow injury
(ironically). As happens after a break-up, esp. when you are 21, you go
looking for a new adventure. I was working at the uni sports centre so was
always seeing these geeky looking guys with HUGE ripped torsos, and lycra-to-die-for,
scaling a few glue-up routes on the side of the centre. So I put my name
down for a beginnerís trip and off to the gramps I went. Entering summer
day valley was like entering a new relationship; no time for anything
else. Sold my bike a month later, finished uni that year, and proceeded to
defer the next couple to climb.

My first
climb was like getting into a boxing ring; I was a bit scared, no idea
what to do, but thrashed away none the less. Got quite bruised and beaten.
Iíd like to say I exited the ring victorious, but I am still there!

Q: I notice you've put up
the first ascent of routes such as Lifestyling (31) on Spurt Wall,
Bossanova (31) on Afterglow Wall and Breathing Gasoline (31) at Millennium
Caves, all the Grampians. I'm guessing these are steep, powerful routes.
Would you say overhangs are your strength? What attracted you to these
lines and can you tell us a bit about them?

When I was predominantly climbing
(rope), it was the seeming impossibility of climbing something overhanging
that made me want to do it. The first two routes you mention are not that
steep, maybe only overhanging 4-5 meters. Breathing Gasoline is a very
different story. I have not been up there for a long time but I guess it
overhangs more than 15 meters. Steepness certainly catches my eye, but
uno, usually it is the aesthetics that lure me in. Bolting a route is
arduous work. It takes a special line for me to go and get my drill out.
If I can turn a blind eye to it I usually will.

When I think about these routes it
is not the brain numbing description of moves that comes to mind; you
canít appreciate a jig saw puzzle by having someone explain how to fit 2
pieces together, or what they look like as single pieces. It is the
process of putting it together that is the fun bit. I could tell you the
logistics of each route, but personally I find that as boring as bat shit!

They are all great routes, though
I am biased of course. Lifestyling and Shattering Reflections are
particularly special for me. Mainly for the people around at the time.

Q: Can you give us a quick
tick list of some of your hardest ascents of routes and boulder problems?
Have you ever taken a stab at the Arapiles test piece Punks In The Gym
(31)?

No. I would need to climb at
Arapiles for that. To do that I would need to drive past the Grampians
more than once in a blue moon. As for a tick list, ummm, naa. I will tell
you the best routes and boulder problems I have done though. Letís see...
all of mine of course, theyíre for sure really hot. Bouldering, there are
just too many but Riding Shotgun at Andersons and Orca and Towering
Inferno at Lego Land are a few cool ones. Routes- Slopin Sleezin is one
of the best ever, even though it is at araps. Actually I recently scared
myself silly on auto defe that was supreme retrospective fun. Shattering
reflections and lifestyling are favorites of my own routes. Tunnel to
Caracas at millennium Caves. Must go and do Serpentine as it is meant to
be really cool. The last pitch of word party is outrageous. Bladderhosen
in the blue mountains. MmmÖ2 mike law routes so far! The list is endless.

Below Right:
Julian bouldering somewhere overseas. Photo by Ross??

Q: Is climbing high grades
something you train for and pursue year round, or does your interest
fluctuate? Are you involved in other sports, for example? Do you still
cruise up easy routes just for the fun of it?

Pretty much all year round, though
I try and take two 6 week breaks each year so I donít fall apart (a
hangover from exam periods which seems to work). Last year I didnít, and I
fell apart. The weekend I bumped into you I was at araps doing easy things
with a good friend; heaps of fun, and easy routes will always teach you
something, if not least of all to give them the respect they deserve.
Motivation does fluctuate at times though it is normally an index of
whether I have projects on the go, i.e. my motivation is mostly for new
things. I donít so much Ďtrainí as just go climbing. You will get better
by default. I go to the gym maybe once a month, twice if I am unlucky.

I have tried surfing but am
useless at everything when I get cold. Do a little snowboarding, cool fun,
though I am still scarred by the memory of my bruised butt after the first
time I went. My girlfriend is hot on a snow board, and sheís really good
at it. . I do enjoy it, but really I go just to be seen with her.

Q: Can you give us an idea
of how your climbing life transpires? Do you typically go on extended
climbing trips for weeks at a time, or are you predominantly a weekend
cragger? Do you target routes ahead of time and work on them feverishly
until success, or do you kind of just rock up and go with the flow of your
friends?

Most weekends I go to the gramps
except over summer, which is too hot for me. I usually go OS around this
time of year for 2-3 months.

I used to be the most fixated
person I know. I was terrible. I climbed a lot with Simon Atkins, and I
strive to climb like he does, if you canít do it fast then come back when
you can. It is much more enjoyable. I am a lot better at it now but 6-8
years ago I was useless. I would keep trying until I broke something; that
being me! I am now not injured nearly as much (discounting the last 12
months), nor am I driven to tears quite so often by failure. I put up a
route in Nowra, Narcosis, which took so f....g long it was ridiculous (it
was way out of my league when I bolted it. Some would call it audacious, I
would call it deluded). Paul Westwood dubbed it Trail of Tears!

Q: Do you have a nemesis? A
project that you've been working for sometime that yet eludes you?

Happy camper on the campsite
boulder. I canít do it. I have tried and tried (with out been fixated!).
Oh yer there is a 21 at Nowra on the left side of Betty blue wall, canít
remember its name. Must have tried it 20 times. If I had done it I would
have graded it 30.

Q: A lot of people will
probably recognize you from the front cover of Simon Carter's very popular
"Rock Climbing In Australia" photography book. I've also seen your picture
in guides, calendars, magazines and instructional books. Combined with
your accomplishments as a climber, this fame must effect the way people
interact with you, perhaps making them hesitant to approach and talk to
you? Has notoriety and recognition been a positive or negative thing?

Both. Every tall poppy in the
country wants to line you up; there are quite a few. People certainly tend
to judge you on first impressions. One guy from Sydney didnít like me for
a whole year and I didnít even talk to him (maybe that was the problem).
He told me this a year later when I went climbing with him and he
thoughtfully reviewed his opinion. Based on that I have avoided it for the
last few years. People look at you as though your opinion is more
important than somebody elseís, which is of course crap. Or they wonít say
hello because they feel intimidated or think that you wonít want to talk
to them because they donít climb as hard. All really really silly. I
didnít like that people were thinking about me, or thought something about
me when I did not know them.

From a finance perspective it has
been great. Climbing paid my way through school. It enabled me to travel
every year around the world on some climbing adventure with my friends.
And now my business is 70% climbers; which is cool as they are mostly
motivated patients (to get better) and typically well educated,
interesting people. Most of them came to see me because they new my name
as a climber and wanted their injury considered with climbing in mind. So
I canít complain, but it is definitely a double edged sword.

Q: In Simonís book there
are shots of you plummeting off "Shattering Reflections of Narcissism"
(29) at Millennium Caves. The terrain looks unbelievably steep. Is falling
something you've come to terms with or does it still scare the living
daylights of out you, like it does the rest of us?

When I run into climbing
photographers around the world they ask about these photos, and the route.
Simon is considered THE climbing photographer. As such the angle and
architecture and composition make for an amazing photograph...but it is a
little deceptive. It is steep for sure, but it is actually a rising
traverse over the lip of a giant cave, so you fall into space.

Falling is one of those aspects of
climbing that you wrestle with continually. There was, however, certainly
a point when I got a whole lot more comfortable with it. When I bolted
Millennium Caves with Simon Atkins we decided to space the bolts a good
distance for a number of reasons. We ended up taking some quite big falls,
mostly into space. Two things make falling less scary; A) the more you
fall the more comfortable you become with it. Fear of falling is mostly
irrational, so the more you do it the more that fear is dispelled.
Similarly, if you donít fall for a while it becomes unfamiliar, so you get
scared again. And B) your belayer. A dynamic belay is 657 times more
comfortable. If every time you fall is like hitting a concrete floor and
then being slammed into a wall, you will have a bad association! A
Pavlovian response if you like. I am sure I donít need to detail the
physical and mental cascade that follows. Get a good belayer and fall lots
and suddenly it is not so bad. Equally, short falls are often
paradoxically more scary, as you donít get time to relax in the air and
they tend to be less dynamic.

Right now however I am in a scared
shittless phase. I havenít being falling much and my favourite belayer
lives in Sydney.

Q: You've put up some
reportedly bold routes, for example "Daedelus" (28) on Taipan Wall, in the
Grampians. I've been told someone once asked you why you generally space
your bolts so far apart, to which you replied with the likes of "I'd
rather climb than clip". That's a pretty cool quote. Were they your words?
Is that still your sentiment today?

Yes, actually. Climbing is cool.
Getting lost in all the movement and struggle is an amazing experience; as
we all know. For me, clipping tars that experience a little, makes me feel
all human and vulnerable; it brings me back to earth if you like. It
reminds me of falling by virtue of the fact that it is the ramifications
of such that I am trying to protect myself against. It is a necessity yes,
but the less I have to do it the better. It is how myself and many others
like to climb, with bolts becoming further apart the higher you get, with
in reason. If you are not comfortable with falling you wonít like my
routes, or you will quickly get more comfortable.

I donít like having a bolt at my
waist all the time. I like the freedom of spaced bolts, I like that mental
challenge of having to climb at you limit with the prospect of a long
fall, of controlling your fears of falling, failure and whatever else it
brings up for you.

Q: Bouldering seems to be
high on your priorities. Do you prefer it over climbing routes? When you
are leading do you prefer sport, trad, aid, ice? Do you free solo at all?

About 5-6 years ago I started
bouldering when a few Austrians were out here. They were fantastically
motivated and supportive irrespective of the grade you were climbing,
which was great for me because I was significantly weaker than most of
them (actually pissweak is probably more accurate). So I thought I would
boulder some to get stronger so I could do a few projects I had. Well, I
got a little distracted by it all and am still doing it; more for social
reasons than preference of style. I must say that I am now perhaps turning
a little corner. I have one project on Taipan that I would like to do,
especially since I sent Nathan Hoette up there and he reported back that
it is not as hard as I thought. Not that Nathan can be trusted with
judging difficulty. Somebody put his butt cheeks where his shoulders used
to be!

Q: Rumour has it you
recently sent a ten meter, "high ball" line (at Andersons?), by working
the crux on a top rope, and then cruising up it as a "boulder problem". I
think most climbers would count ten meters as a route worthy of
protecting. Was it a scary solo? What was your motivation?

That has been one of the most
memorable things I have done. It is called Orca. I had a lot of trouble
down low and didnít really understand the movement. I tried it on tope
rope for a while. I was up there with Tim Fahey and a pad, just in case it
all came together. I did it clean for the first time that morning, and on
Chris Jonesí advice quickly pulled the rope, sussed the landing out just
in case, decided it was bad and I shouldnít fall, and then climbed it. Got
the shakes a bit at the top (I had skidded off pulling for the top on a
few occasions), but Tim wisely told me to relax. What a great spotter!

Dr Jones had a lot less trouble
with it than I, though he kindly allowed me (and coached me through!) the
first ascent. He was the first person I called after doing it.

Q: Most long time climbers
have had their share of epics. It's hard to believe anyone who climbs as
hard as you do, for as long as you have, hasn't had a near miss or two, if
only from bad luck. Imagine the campfire is crackly warmly, your muscles
have that well earned ache, and good friends are listening... what's your
"there I was" story?

No epics as such, though I have
made a stupid mistake or two; like forgetting to back up my bow line on
Strolling at araps. I had just learnt how to tie one and it was way too
good to have to back it up. Strolling was at my limit at the time. I had
to put some gear in at the top, and as I pulled the rope up it practically
came out of my harness. It was probably a little to early in my climbing
career for it to really hit home, because uno, I would have bounced and
been fine! I guess a year later I was trying that route Narcosis (aka
Trail of Tears) and got distracted doing up my knot. I lent out, got my
fingers in the first holds, and as I was about to throw my feet into the
roof, Chris Wobblebuns (what an awesome surname) casually asked me if I
thought I should finish tying in. Since then I tend to check about 900
times before I weight the rope in any circumstances.

Q: Your run your own
business "Athlon Sports Medicine", in Melbourne, having completed degrees
in Sports Physiology and Osteopathy. Firstly can you tell us a little
about the business? Is your main clientele comprised of climbers? What is
your range of services?

Climbers constitute probably 70%
of my patients. 20% are performers of some nature e.g. Circus Oz and about
10% are what I would call the general population. Osteopathy is a form of
musculoskeletal medicine. Really it is all about biomechanics; the goal is
to keep your body working as a complete unit. When you get an injury it is
often the end result a series of problems which culminate in something
being damaged. Osteopathy is not just about looking directly at the
injured site. It also focuses on getting those other factors in order so
as to a) prevent the same thing happening again, and b) to Ďunloadí the
actual injury so it can heal.

I think climbers come to see me
because 90% of the time I donít tell them they cannot climb, which for the
most part is futile anyway. Stevie Haston once told me ďnever tell
somebody to do something if they are going to disobey you; it undermines
your authority.Ē He was talking about his teenage daughter and her
boyfriend! Not only visionary parenting, but good all-round advice. Mostly
you can change the way you climb and avoid aggravating the injury.

Although I treat most
musculoskeletal injuries, most of my patients come for an upper limb
injury initially, i.e. shoulder, elbow, wrist, fingers, and then they come
for their back, knee etc.

Q: Running your own
business can be a demanding occupation. Are you able to balance work and
climbing well? Does being your own boss have benefits when requesting time
off for extended climbing trips?

I only have one rule; I will not
work more than half the week. Three and a half days. Not more. The rest I
spend climbing. Normally Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and Wednesday if I can
manage it, which is about 50% of the time. Ross Taylor has Wednesdays days
off so we often try for a day trip to the gramps. And of course the longer
trips through the year. E.g. I was just in NZ for a few weeks.

Q: When I spoke to you
earlier in the year you were concentrating on light bouldering in an
effort to recover from injuries. Presumably this put a dampener on ticking
anything too hard last summer? Are you back to 100% again now? Were the
injuries incurred while climbing?

I ruptured a ligament in my right
knee climbing in India, cartilage in my left knee on London Calling
(serves myself right for climbing at araps), ruptured a ligament in my
right elbow on Have a Good Flight (I am not a quick learner!) and
fractured a finger playing Frisbee (Xtreme Frisbee of course). The last 3
were all in 3 months. My left knee and my right elbow are still a bit
dodgy, but not really slowing me down. The 6 months between the first and
second injuries were fantastic. Did practically all my projects. And then
I got all brokenÖ

Q: Training for climbing.
This should be a topic about which you've both experience and
qualifications. Us mortals would dearly like to know how you got to be
freeing such hard grades, and whether the secret lies in a replicate-able
formulae; some kind of training and diet regime. Or is all just genetics?
Do you spend a lot of time in the gym?

I like to balance the number of
hours I go climbing with the number of hours I spend eating. Thatís about
as technical as I get.

I am sure I would benefit from a
more sophisticated program, but I like going climbing more than I like
preparing for it.

Actually, I do have a secret
recipe I use when I really need some power. I formulated and refined it
some years ago. I guess now is the time I should share and let others
benefit from it as well. Dosage is very important so experiment with how
much you need to ingest for best results. Too much may have a rebound
effect.

400gr of dark chocolate, 10 eggs
separated, 225gr of caster sugar, 4 table spoons of coco powder, 100gr of
almond meal, and a buttered and floured
30cm sprung cake tin. You will also need to manufacture a disc that will
fit into the aperture of the tin. Cover with tin foil and butter the
bottom. Double card board works well.

Instructions

Melt chocolate and butter over
water and allow to cool slightly. Wisk in egg yolk. Add sugar, almond meal
and coco. Mix well. Beat egg whites until soft peaks are formed. Fold into
the formulae one third at a time, not any quicker, as the molecular
structure of the protein can be damaged. Pour into cake tin and place in a
180 degree preheated oven for 40min or until raised and slightly set. Take
from oven and place the disc on top of the cake. Place 2-3 bricks (or
something equally heavy) end on onto the disc. Allow to cool for one or
two hours.

This concoction combines lipids,
sugars and protein in a ratio that will maximize your performance about
15-20 minutes after digestion. It can also be used as a recovery
supplement, though to absorb all the nutritional goodies it is advised
that you take a short nap immediately after consumption.

It is important to suffuse the
various forms of saturated fats in order to reap their complete
therapeutic benefits, so I recommend it be digested with king Island full
cream. To make more palatable, a raspberry sauce can be added.

Boulderers, combine with a
macchiato coffee for synergistic results. Warning, dexterity impairment
and insomnia are common side effects.

Q: Have you climbed
overseas? Can you relate some of your experiences with climbing in other
parts of Australia and the world? Is there one particular trip that stands
out?

I recently went to NZ bouldering
at a place called F bouldering at a place
called flock Hill. Holly molly, it is HOT. Big proud lines, and
very few of them done. Since I started working I realize that I can afford
to rent a house (with a hot tub outside) and hire a car, and not live in a
dank tent all the time and eat rice after my weakly budget has been spent.
It is really very novel.

I have climbed a lot OS. Had some
amazing experiences with great friends. Articulating them here, however,
is way beyond the scope of my dyslexic typing ability let alone my
literary skills.

Q: Okay, generic question
time, what's your favourite crag in Victoria, and all time favourite
climb?

Grampians. To difficult to say a
single climb.

Q: Do you have a climbing
hero/heroine?

No. Oh oh ohÖyes, Corinne. Sheís
my Hottie.

Q: So what does your future
hold in terms of climbing? Any big trips planned?