I recently was told by a friend that if I wanted a good laugh, shock, and had some free time some afternoon to visit www.exmormon.org . Well I did and I was not only shocked I was disgusted. The only weird fact that I did know was that Mormons did believe that all black people are the cursed offspring of Cain. They officially stopped believing this in 1978 but a Mormon I knew in school told me about this so I don't think this Mormon teaching has entirely died out. But I never knew that Mormons believed you needed a secret handshake and password to get into heaven nor did I know that Mormons who have been endowed had to wear special underwear at all times. It is very interesting because it is so weird and because there are so many Mormons. How could so many people be duped into this. I plan on reading Under the Banner of Heaven this summer and finding out more about how weird Mormonism still is. Do you know what Blood Atonement is? It was the Mormon belief that it was sometimes justifiable to put apostates to death! Read this http://www.exmormon.org/bloodatn.htmFrom these brief readings I am convinced that the Mormons are worshipping the Devil. Who else could lead people to do such insane evil things in the name of God.

Actually what stopped in '78 was that black people could be part of the Mormon priesthood (which is for all males in Mormonism.) No other beliefs changed; they just received "revelation" from God that black people could be admitted now. (Similar to the "revelation" of earlier times that polygamy should no longer be practiced.)

You've just started to uncover the beliefs of Mormon.

Look up the "Adam-God" doctrine. That one is fun. (Although no longer held by many Mormons as they believe Young was not acting as a Prophet when he spoke on this... how can you be a Prophet and teach something false...?)

They also believe that God the Father was originally a man like us and grew in holiness until he got his own planet. (Faithful Mormons will also get their own planets.) He lives near a star named Kolob. He has a wife, the Heavenly Mother, but we don't know much about her. They also believe that God the Father, who has a body, literally impregnated Mary. The list goes on.

Marjorie

« Last Edit: May 04, 2005, 04:36:20 PM by Marjorie »

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"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

But-- I should warn you and anyone reading this, I strongly advise not to read too much on Mormonism... I know from personal experience that the more you study it (and trust me, it can become obsessive because it's so fascinating and grotesque) the more it almost seems to possess you. I really think there is strong demonic influence there and wouldn't be surprised if this, as well as psychological factors, had to do with the "burning of the bosom" that inquirers are supposed to feel while reading the BOM.

Marjorie

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"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

The strange thing is the Mormons have this completely screwball theology, and yet there are so insanely normal. Aside from the wackos like Hoffman and the breakaway polygamists, they're mostly what you could describe as a cult of domesticity. I mostly attribute this to the fact that your average Mormon (in my experience) has very, very little real understanding of what their church believes and teaches. Oddly, the missionaries have struck me as being among the most poorly catechized.

That is spot on. What they emphasize is family, family, family-- the home and family-- being nice and making cookies... they never really seem to know about the theological baggage that comes along with it.

Marjorie

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"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

What's even more insane, is that even those who are Mormon Theologians and are extremely well catechized (i.e. an acquaintance of mine named Brian) still believe that stuff. They are reluctant to talk about it too. They'll proselytize like crazy, but wont talk about the "mysteries" like Holy Underwear, and Temple Activities. The new San Antonio temple just opened. Some friends went to the Open House for it and said it was rediculously opulent. Nothing was happening though. Again, they hide their "mysteries" from the world. Kinda spooky.

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At His Feet The Six-Winged Seraph, Cherubim, With Sleepless Eye, Veil Their Faces To His Presence As With Ceasless Voice They Cry:Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ Lord Most High! --From the Liturgy of St. James (Translated by Gerard Moultrie)

Well, not to be mean, but Mormonism, as well as JWs, are two such cults that are dangerous in the sense that they totally depart from orthodox Christianity. Another sect that's making inroads quietly is the Philippine Iglesia ni Cristo (literally Church of Christ, though not to be confused with a denomination of the same name), which is very cultish (they deny Jesus to be part of the Trinity and think their founder, Felix Manalo, to be the true prophet, amongst their beliefs). These cults exist and grab a lot of people unawares.

A long time ago I had a Mormon friend and he was quite nice, but also quite hotheaded. So I actually got him to debate the holy underwear, wives of God, spirit children, etc with me, which is very uncommon. We had some good debates LOL

Anyway, he took me to his "church" where they tried to lure me in with hot chicks, literally; he actually told me if I went Mormon I could marry one of them LOL. Then I met a missionary who when he greeted me I could tell was possessed (literally, I don't exaggerate spiritual things) and his eyes actually rolled back in his head when he smiled at me (freaky).

The last straw was during the service I felt a weird presence so I asked the Lord to show me what was up and reveal the truth of what I was seeing and I looked to the left and saw shadows appear and move around behind various people--you know what that means. (FREAKY).

Anastasios, Wow!!! my experience has been with individual Mormons who seemed to be quite normal. To see that much of the presence of evil gives me chills even on this end of the computer. Praise God that you are a Christian and were able to see such things for what they were. That is truly frightening. We so often look at the more rediculous aspects of the religion and forget the demonic and satanic influence of it and how that affects the Mormons' lives. Thank you for sharing.

Adrian

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At His Feet The Six-Winged Seraph, Cherubim, With Sleepless Eye, Veil Their Faces To His Presence As With Ceasless Voice They Cry:Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ Lord Most High! --From the Liturgy of St. James (Translated by Gerard Moultrie)

As a former Mormon (member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, LDS) but now a convert to the Holy Orthodox Church for 18 Paschas, I may be able to illumine some of you on the Mormon mind and its approach to Theology. First thing to remember is that the Mormon’s see their church as a prophetic church, i.e. their President of the Church is a prophet who can change things as needed to fit the needs of society today and the protection of the church as needed. To the Mormon, this shows them the hand of God in the workings of their church and maintaining it relevance. To the world this appears to be charismatic leadership gone awry but to the Mormon, it is a sign of truth.

The LDS church was historically developed out of the Campbellite Movement of the 1820-30’s a part of the “Great Awakening” in America of the protestant evangelical/ millennial movement. From the Campbellites the Churches of Christ, Disciples of Christ and the united Church of Christ developed as mainline protestant denominations. The LDS church originally was called the Church of Christ and Later by prophetic revelation was changed and incorporated as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The LDS church took the Campbellite teaching that the Christian Church needed to be restored to the protestant vision of the early church to the next logical level of the Entire Church had fallen and needed full restoration.

As the church evolved under the leadership of Joseph Smith Jr, its first president and prophet---new scriptures (The Book of Mormon revealed by the Angel Moroni) joined the Bible to clarify confused issues like infant baptism (no), baptism by immersion (yes), frequent communion (yes), definition of the Holy Trinity as Three separate Gods (thru a vision of God the Father and God the Son to Joseph Smith Jr), Priesthood of all believers (Aaronic Priesthood restored by John the Baptist and Melchizadek Priesthood restored by Apostles Peter, James, and John) revealed to Joseph Smith, Jr. Day to day revelations organizing the beliefs of the LDS church were given to Joseph Smith Jr and recorded in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. Plural Marriage and a Temple Endowment promising godhood to faithful Mormons, based upon a purification of Masonic temple ritual were established before the mob killing of Joseph Smith, Jr. Additional revelations/statements were placed in the Doctrine and Covenants after the death of Joseph Smith Jr---Brigham Young’s appointing him as the successor of Joseph. Wilford Woodruff’s announcement stopping polygamy as an active practice in the church, and Spencer W. Kimball’s revelation to allow Negroes to hold the priesthood.

Mormonism is truly a Gnostic church patterned with teachings of secret keys to hidden knowledge being prominent in the teachings of the actual theology of the church. They hold these secret teachings or hidden knowledge as sacred and therefore not to be spoken about to the uninitiated. After I had received my own Temple endowment, the president of the Swiss Temple gave a lecture I attended in the LDS Temple in Zollikofen Switzerland in which he explained the four levels of knowledge in the LDS Church:Level One---The Inquirer Level ---this is better known as the teaching level of the LDS Missionary program. This is a series of around eight lessons that are very clearly developed and memorized by the Missionaries and taught to the non-Mormon. It introduces basic levels of LDS doctrine like the Holy Trinity being separate people with the Father and Son having bodies of flesh and bone. The fallen state of the Christian Church and its need to be “restored” by Joseph Smith, Jr. Other teachings like tithing and a brief intro to church programs is given. Not very in-depth, the lessons are meant to get the person to agree to Baptism and sate some level of belief in Joseph Smith Jr and his revelations. [Note: at this time the person is presented with the “perfection of the church” and the love shown by the LDS to the inquirer is often cited as the main reason many came into the church.]Level Two---The New Member Level --- This is the level at which a deepening of teaching about the LDS church and theology is done. New Keys of understanding are offered and the person’s membership in the church is stabilized. New definitions are offered of common Christian Terminology and teachings---commonly referred to as “Mormonisms” ---these terms are relatively clearly delineated in LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie’s book Mormon Doctrine. As the teachings and beliefs are taught in more depth the focus shifts to the new member getting the Temple Endowment and eternal marriage being given as the goal. Promises of deeper knowledge and understanding are given during the classes, whetting the appetite of the new member to become “fully” a Mormon. For at least a year the new member is expected to tithe, live the Word of Wisdom [Mormon Health rules], attend church, and evangelize non-Mormons. [Note: many converts are lost in the first year as they gradually understand the differences between orthodox/heterodox teachings of the Christianity and the teachings of the LDS church]Level Three---The Temple Endowed Member ---at this level, the member achieves adulthood in the LDS Church. The temple ritual, which was a “restoration” of apostate Masonic ritual to the “purity” of the true, Temple Service makes use of the traditional signs and tokens of the Free Masonic Order adapted by Joseph Smith Jr to the LDS Temple ritual. Every person who is to be endowed is symbolically washed and anointed a king and queen and given a new white garment they are to wear for the rest of their lives---the garment contains the Masonic symbols of the square and the compass and markings at the naval and right knee. Each person then places white temple clothing over these garments and go the their full endowment of knowledge in the Temple ceremony. The Ceremony is a series of small plays (In some modern temples filmed versions of the plays) representing the creation, fall of Adam and Eve, and The World today, during which signs and tokens of the Aaronic Priesthood and Melchizadek Priesthood are given. Phrases and teachings of the temple become the keys of hidden wisdom that open for the endowed members the sermons and writings of the church in ways that the unendowed or unitiated do not have. When these phrases are read or said the initiated has a completely different understanding of the text than the unitiated. After being taught the true order of prayer, each person is individually taken to the Veil of the Temple, a large white curtain with the symbols placed on their temple garment being on the veil. Here they undergo a rehearsal of the Judgment to enter heaven---they are quizzed on the knowledge, names, tokens and signs that they have received in the temple. If successful, they go through the veil and enter the Celestial Room of the Temple---The Celestial Room is very Ornate and symbolizes the beauty of heaven. If they are to be sealed in eternal marriage they enter the Sealing room off this room where they kneel at an altar and sealed by the Temple Presidency to their eternal spouse, this closes by a curtain being lifted and the couple looking into two mirrors which reflect off each other in infinite images---this shows them howl they are eternally married. The endowed member comes out highly empowered much like the early Gnostics with the power they know something only the “‘elect” know.Level Four---Calling and Election Made Sure ---I did not experience this in my membership in the LDS church, and I believe most LDS members do not achieve this level. This level was specifically mentioned by the Temple President in his lecture, however, the “ Calling and Election Made Sure” is the goal of every endowed Mormon, It is when, in the Temple Jesus Christ is fully revealed to the member---at this point they do not know by faith but know by fact what Joseph taught about Jesus is true. They have made it, they will be a god for eternity. Should they commit any sin, they must pay for it themselves, as did Jesus did for them previously. They have achieved full and perfect knowledge and thus are responsible for themselves. The temple President said you will never know who has their calling and election made sure because those who say they have it don’t and those who have it won’t acknowledge they have it.

The Mormon is an extremely hard person to evangelize unless he is disaffected by some policy or offended by an individual or leader of the Church, however, you can effectively work with any Mormon if you will follow these few suggestions from someone who left and became an Orthodox Christian.1) Remember that the LDS person is blinded by the father of all lies and must be approached prayerfully by the Orthodox Christian.2) Pray to the Holy Spirit to guide you and release the blinders that bind them so they may hear what you are saying.3) Ask the Most Holy Theotokos and the Saints of Heaven to intercede before the Throne of God for the person you are seeking to bring out of the Mormon church.4) Provide the person with good, strong teachings of the Holy fathers of the Church [I came out after being shaken from my sleep by the Paschal Letters of St Athanasius---his teachings of the Holy Trinity, the Resurrection of Christ were so powerful I could no longer defend the frail LDS beliefs in the brightness of the light of his teachings] and the description of the beliefs of the early Church such as the Didache.5) Make sure you are attending all the Church services you are able to attend, and prayerfully participate. [Remember that an LDS person is VERY active in his church often serving in a church activity or calling 5-6 days a week---all their social activities are in the church---most of their frie4nds will be LDS when they leave they lose family, friends, social activities, as well as religious activities] You will have to help keep the person actively and positively engaged in Orthodox activities.6) Finally love them with all your heart as a brother or sister, pray continuously for them even if rebuffed.

I hope that you will bring into their heart the reality of Christ as taught by the Orthodox Church. Christ is Risen! Truly He is Risen!

Thank you for sharing your experiences - they are very enlightening for me. And to be perfectly honest, in just what you have described, I can see how dangerous Mormonism is, since I remember a time for me (as a kid lol) where all that initiation hoopla would seem extremely appealing, truth notwithstanding - the mystique of it is its strongest weapon, it seems to me. It seems prayer to the Holy Trinity is our strongest warding-off of such a cult. Your tips for evangelizing Mormons are very good I think - if I ever meet any I will remember them.

Now, what about burning all Mormons in the central square? Nice Mormon is a fried Mormon. I want mine well done, please.

Sabbas started the thread with a desperate disgusted shock, “Mormons are worshipers of devil”

Then gradually some people started to panic themselves:

Quote

"I strongly advise not to read too much on Mormonism GÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Âª"

"They are so insanely normalGÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Âª"

"Good call on the response to the craaaaazy doctrine, too...."

"What's even more insane is that even those who are Mormon Theologians and are extremely well catechized (i.e. an acquaintance of mine named Brian) still believe that stuffGÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Âª They'll proselytize like crazy, but won’t talk about the "mysteries" like Holy Underwear, and Temple Activities. GÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Âª. Nothing was happening though. Again, they hide their "mysteries" from the world. Kinda spooky."

"Well, not to be mean, but Mormonism, as well as JWs, are two such cults that are dangerous in the sense that they totally depart from orthodox Christianity GÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Âª. These cults exist and grab a lot of people unawares."

"GÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂªThe last straw was during the service I felt a weird presence so I asked the Lord to show me what was up and reveal the truth of what I was seeing and I looked to the left and saw shadows appear and move around behind various people--you know what that means. (FREAKY)..."

"Wow!!! my experience has been with individual Mormons who seemed to be quite normal. To see that much of the presence of evil gives me chills even on this end of the computer. Praise God that you are a Christian and were able to see such things for what they were. That is truly frightening. We so often look at the more ridiculous aspects of the religion and forget the demonic and satanic influence of it and how that affects the Mormons' lives. Thank you for sharing."

Now people, you may have just entered into the Twilight Zone.

Ahh, and don’t forget: Mormons are literally from another planet, as they are pretending to be.

Finally, as someone said in his post “Thank you for sharing.”

(Many mormons are going to be with us in heaven. Honesty and personal faith are not our privilege. You know some people in old times (during the Roman Empire) said about Christians that were eating human flesh and they were drinking human blood. They were referring to pagan customs in order to slander and to go after Christians.)

What's even more insane, is that even those who are Mormon Theologians and are extremely well catechized (i.e. an acquaintance of mine named Brian) still believe that stuff. They are reluctant to talk about it too. They'll proselytize like crazy, but wont talk about the "mysteries" like Holy Underwear, and Temple Activities. The new San Antonio temple just opened. Some friends went to the Open House for it and said it was rediculously opulent. Nothing was happening though. Again, they hide their "mysteries" from the world. Kinda spooky.

Yes, if you ask Mormons what they believe most often they will hand you the "13 Articles of Faith" (which are just basically things they share with either Catholics or Protestants) and say "FAMILIES ARE FOREVER!"... never once mentioning any of the shadiest doctrines.

Marjorie

« Last Edit: May 05, 2005, 12:59:05 PM by Marjorie »

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"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

My warnings were serious. I'm not paranoid; it's not "crazy" to think that some cults have demonic influences in them, no matter how normal initiates can be. I know that I studied Mormonism for a while and the more I did the more weird I felt when I read it... weird things started to happen. I also believe Anastasios's anecdote.

I am actually known as, like, someone very 'liberal' in my approach to other religions. Mormonism is an exception because I think it is very strongly caught up with demonic influence. I'm sorry if you find that paranoid but it is the conclusion I have reached.

I do know many normal, healthy, sane and good Mormons.

Marjorie

« Last Edit: May 05, 2005, 01:04:34 PM by Marjorie »

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"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

One of the problems that people have trying to evangelize Mormons is that we tend to dredge up the anti-Mormon literature which in actuality has more success in keeping people out of Mormonism than effecting those in Mormonism. One must remember that Mormonism was a progressive/evolving religion ---in orther words trying to evolve very quickly into a church in less than a 100 years with men who were for the most part intelligent but poorly educated people. Mormon Theology is an evolution of these men thinking without the Holy Spirit and Holy Tradition to support them. Even in the time of Joseph Smith Jr., the church evolved from a campbellite movement to a prophetic movement from a strongly monogomous church to a polygamous one, all based upon men taking an idea from one level to another.

Early Mormon Teachings that eventually disappeared, were postponed, or evolved into other things are:1) Adam-ondi-Ahman -the garden of Eden in Missouri where a Mormon Paradise would be established (ended in 1840/now said to have been postponed)2) Witnesses of the Book of Mormon ( most promised great things, most apostasized)3)Adam-God/Adam as Michael (taught by Brigham Young, not ever formally adapted by Conference as approved doctrine---known by historians and LDS Theologians but refuted officially by the Church, most LDS do not accept this)4) Everything has spirits (vegetables, animals, etc---taught by Apostle Orson Hyde and others, not approved by conference, not accepted by most LDS people)5) You MUST be in a Plural Marriage to enter the Celestial Kingdom (teaching changed by President Wiford Woodruff to mean only that one had to be sealed for eternity in Marriage ---i.e celestial marriage)6) Blood Atonement (Brigham Young taught that for many sins, Christ's blood ationement was insufficient, and that they had to be atoned for by the shedding of one's blood in order to be forgiven this included heresy, treason, apsostacy, murder, ect---Currently this has been changed only to cover Murder---ie if you commit murder a Mormon would want his blood shed, that is why Utah offers firing squad as a option for the death sentence)7) African people (negroes) were not allowed to hold the LDS priesthoods as the descendents of Cain (Belief changed when President Spencer W. Kimball had a revelation that the time for the descedents of Cain to be able to hold the priesthood had come and LDS people with Negro blood were started to be ordained and missions in black areas of Africa were opened.)

Remember if you try to use these to challenge the LDS person, you will only reinforcing their belief that you are anti-Mormon and do not know what you are speaking about. Focus on current beliefs and especially use of the Holy Fathers of the Orthodox Christian Church in explaining the true church. Remember always that prayer and example are the most effective way of dealing with LDS people as you evangelize them.

The worst argument I have ever had with a Mormon was when he got quotes from the Holy Fathers off of a Mormon website which took a few things out of context (especially in relation to theosis) to prove that the earliest Church was Mormon. It INCENSED me, obviously. I started crying.

Marjorie

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"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

Dearest Sister In Christ, I think I know the site that you speak of. It is easily responded to from that classic Kallistos Ware's The Orthodox Church which clearly teaches what Theosis is and is not using the Church Fathers. I wrote a paper on this for my St Stephen's course just last semester. contact me at my email address listed if you want a copy of the paper.

1) Adam-ondi-Ahman -the garden of Eden in Missouri where a Mormon Paradise would be established (ended in 1840/now said to have been postponed)

Garden of Eden in Missouri? That right there should prove that the religion is off it's rocker.

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Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didnÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

The Momo's are off their rocker and if you don't believe me just watch the videos Godmakers 1 & 2 which exposes everything about them. Those video tapes will also scare you half to death when they go into quasi-satanic type stuff they do in their temples and other very weird things like their belief in "blood atonement." Another funny thing about them is the book of Mormon, which reads like it was written by a bunch of 3rd graders. I can't believe anyone would fall for such garbage; the false archeological descriptions should be enough for anyone to see right through it all.

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"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Unfortunately, P.T. Barnum was underestimating, it's more like a sucker is born every second. In light of this topic, I've warned my stepson who goes to an Agape youth group (which I don't care for, but his mother is okay with) to NOT listen when the mormon girl in group is speaking. But I do like the idea of sheepstealing the hot mormons, it's like putting the LDS out business by stealing their breeding stock.

Gosh, I had no idea. Thats the most fascinating thing I've ever read about the Mormons. It makes the word cult seem inadequate somehow.

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Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.

A long time ago I had a Mormon friend and he was quite nice, but also quite hotheaded. So I actually got him to debate the holy underwear, wives of God, spirit children, etc with me, which is very uncommon. We had some good debates LOL

Anyway, he took me to his "church" where they tried to lure me in with hot chicks, literally; he actually told me if I went Mormon I could marry one of them LOL. Then I met a missionary who when he greeted me I could tell was possessed (literally, I don't exaggerate spiritual things) and his eyes actually rolled back in his head when he smiled at me (freaky).

The last straw was during the service I felt a weird presence so I asked the Lord to show me what was up and reveal the truth of what I was seeing and I looked to the left and saw shadows appear and move around behind various people--you know what that means. (FREAKY).

I bolted.

Anastasios

Now it makes me eager to investigate Mormonism, just to see if what happened to Anastasios is true. I'd like to investigate such things, because I strongly believe that to overcome darkness, one must first know the enemy. If such things really happened, then more than ever we must be careful of such cults.

I am always the one for tolerating different faith traditions. I can buy that Buddha had some very enlightening experience that through following his techniques, one can attain the same enlightenment. His ideas of reincarnation I interpret in the historical context of his time and therefore, I have no need to denounce his entire system of thought as foolish. There is a great deal of truth in Siddhartha's insights and there is no reason to believe that he was intentionally deceiving people. Joseph Smith, on the other hand, was a dinizen of hell, to put it lightly. The Book of Mormon was plargiarized from other books of his time which speculated that the Native Americans are the descendents of the Jews. He midrashed some Old Testament characters into that setting and brought a "another Testament of Jesus Christ". Some of those who originally claimed to have witnessed the tablets actually came forward and admitted they never existed. What the heck is this cult's problem? One might as well think of it as Moronism.

OK, what I get out of this forum, this religion, Morman, is a mixture of Sciencetology, Masons, and demonic.... yes, odd, very odd.

My personal experience, from work...I worked with my best-friend at that time; a co-worker of Mormon Religion tells my best-friend, "Nice person, too bad she is going to hell." My friend gets irate and says "Excuse me!" and the co-worker replies "Yes, she is Muslim." My best-friend angrily replies "NO! She is Orthodox Christian and I am Catholic...and Muslims do not go to hell!" Then my best-friend walked away...we never spoke to her again. Basically what I got from Mormons by meeting this co-worker is that they are judgmental and racist. My personal experience...demonic...God knows.

But hey, the Osmonds are nice and angel like with charity...I think or maybe... :flame:thats how they made their millions! Joking ALL!

I find some of the comments about peoples' encounters with Mormonism (and copping a creepy vibe from it) interesting, as it reflects my own experience after engaging some Mormon missionaries and reading their literature (and doing further reading online - this was back in the "BBS days", so the info was a little harder to come by, but it was out there). It is a system that has a strange seductive power, even in regard to those who know for a fact that it is baloney, and can state quite specifically why.

However, this is not unique to Mormonism - you'll find it in most pagan religions, wherever they manifest themselves in there more "integral" forms. And this is because, the temples of these groups are houses for demons, and that is what they worship and service - and the devil has a way of making the most degenerate, and (to even the most elementarily logical/rational mind) ridiculous things seem credible and worthy of our energies and devotion. This is why the Scriptures make a link between sexual deviancy and idolatry.

I can give another personal experience illustrating this - and it involves my past research/contacts with various Vedic/"Hindu" religions and cults. However ridiculous, (often) grotesque, and a-historical, it's easy to get sucked in by these groups with their opulent temples, idols, mantras, etc. It's the same spirit at work with the Mormons. Also, like the Mormons, these groups can also call on "feelings" and subtly (at first - it can become much more profound with time) altered states of consciousness to support their sects - many Hindus will talk about the "vibrations" given off by their temple idols, which speak inaudiably to those who gaze on them. "Vibrations", "burning in the bosom", etc.

This is precisely why the Orthodox Tradition is so against using the imagination as a vehicle of devotion in the spiritual life, or enslaving ourselves with a lot of subjectivity - which is precisely why it's so valuable to go to confession, and if possible, have a regular confessor or even a spiritual father/mother of some spiritual maturity. While pagan sects and heretics thrive on delusion, it can also happen amongst Orthodox Christians themselves; this is a danger both to the "simple layman" and those who purposefully take on an ascetic life (like monastics). There are (unfortunately) quite a few stories in our Tradition of "monks gone bad" precisely becuase of this. This has even happened to men who later became Saints (after being freed from their delusion.)

It's all the same basic spiritual illness, in many forms - whether it be schism, heresies, or paganism.

hehehehehehe, I love the topic sentence. Run on, run on, little sentence!

Let's just love those who escape and continue witnessing to the world through our actions.

Thank you for getting the humor. When I wrote that topic sentence I wanted it to sound like something Geraldo Rivera would have said during the Satanism Scare of the 80's. I don't know if any of you are familiar with that time period but a lot of bad run-on sentences were created by people convinced Satanism was everywhere. I thought instead of having a Satanism Scare we should have a Mormonism Scare. Mormons are all over the place, believe in a god who lives on another planet and has a wife, and requires secret passwords and underwear for you to get into heaven. Who else could this god be but the Devil? Wouldn't have been better for Geraldo Rivera to have told people the dangers of getting involved in Mormonism?

But-- I should warn you and anyone reading this, I strongly advise not to read too much on Mormonism... I know from personal experience that the more you study it (and trust me, it can become obsessive because it's so fascinating and grotesque) the more it almost seems to possess you. I really think there is strong demonic influence there and wouldn't be surprised if this, as well as psychological factors, had to do with the "burning of the bosom" that inquirers are supposed to feel while reading the BOM.

Marjorie

I felt the same way when I was researching Nazi Occultism in High School. I have Neo-Nazi relatives, who are actually part Jewish, as I am also, and I decided to start researching contemporary Neo-Nazism. I uncovered a lot of websites and groups talking about the 'Cosmic Reich,' the 'Immortal Fuhrer,' and so forth. I was so shocked that these people actually say prayers to Adolf Hitler and believe that he was some type of Warrior-Messiah that I decided to dig deeper. I found a book called the Occult Roots of Nazism by Nicholas Goodricke-Clark http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?endeca=1&isbn=0814730604&itm=2 who is an expert on Aryan Occultism before and during the Second and Third Reich. Did you know that Heinrich Himmler believed he was the reincarnation of King Henry the Fowler? or that he recommended specific cemetaries for his SS men to copulate with their wives so that the spirits of ancient Aryan warriors could be reincarnated? This list of weirdness goes on to theories about some ancient Aryan land called Arktoga and Karl Maria Wiligut who claimed to be a descendant of an ancient line of German Kings who worshipped the god Tyr. I actually became obsessed with learning more and more about this subject till I just had to stop. I realized that it is not healthy to endlessly speculate as to what Heinrich Himmler would have done if the Third Reich had triumphed. Some think Wewelsburg would have become a type of Nazi Camelot. It is all very fascinating and very unhealthy and the same can be said for all weird occult religions. By the way did you know the Mormons baptized Hitler? http://nowscape.com/mormon/hitler_temple_records.htm

Thomas I am glad that you made it out of Mormonism and I agree with you that alot of these websites are not too good for getting Mormons out of the church though I think exmormon.org's stories by people who left the Mormons might help. Personally I think that these websites are good so that people can be aware of how dangerours Mormonism really is and also so that people can study this weird and uniquely American phenomenon. I was amazed when I found out that Joseph Smith was not killed out of religious persecution but because of all the trouble he was sturring up by interfering in politics.

A long time ago I had a Mormon friend and he was quite nice, but also quite hotheaded. So I actually got him to debate the holy underwear, wives of God, spirit children, etc with me, which is very uncommon. We had some good debates LOL

Anyway, he took me to his "church" where they tried to lure me in with hot chicks, literally; he actually told me if I went Mormon I could marry one of them LOL. Then I met a missionary who when he greeted me I could tell was possessed (literally, I don't exaggerate spiritual things) and his eyes actually rolled back in his head when he smiled at me (freaky).

The last straw was during the service I felt a weird presence so I asked the Lord to show me what was up and reveal the truth of what I was seeing and I looked to the left and saw shadows appear and move around behind various people--you know what that means. (FREAKY).

I bolted.

Anastasios

I think that they do this to a lot of young men and I can imagine how tempting it would be. Of course the treatment of women as sexual servants is not new to Mormonism and still goes on in the fringe LDS churches which maintain polygamy. In some of the towns populated by these fringe Mormon groups they still have problems due to old men in the church taking young women away from their boyfriends in order to make them their third or fourth wife.Also I am suprised that you able to see such things. The closest I have ever come to a weird experience like you had was seeing a Jehovah Witness who seemed to vibrate. It was like he was so electrified by telling people about the JW church that his body hummed. It is really freaky because even when he would stand still and not be talking you could still see the vibration. Very Weird!

Ipap don't be too sure about saying alot of Mormons will go to Heaven. I am not judging them but just reminding you that Mormons do not want to be with Christ but want to be gods in a very earthly way after they die. But I do feel the same sadness you do when I see them, especially their young kids, going around blissfully unaware of the evil they are wrapped in.

Augustine you are very right in your appraisal and I think anyone who has read Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future by Fr.Seraphim can see just what is happening. The Antichrist is sowing and plowing and their is a lot of growth right now. In Fairfield, Iowa, close to where I live, there is Maharishi University. There is giant Meditation dome where communal TM takes place. These people are all wrapped up in the Eastern/New Age belief system and are reallly creepy. They have recently founded a new town and named it Vedic City. Who would have thought Iowa would be the home of such kooks?

Is a cheap-shot at the expense of another religion charitable? Suppose a Mormon should come here and read this. Addressing the points of the LDS truthfully is one thing and that person might at least read more and engage in discussion. But mockery might be more likely to just confirm that those who disagree with his church are not worth debating. It might even be along the lines of "They mock my church, that shows that I"m right, since the righteous are persecuted".

Just a thought.

Ebor

« Last Edit: May 06, 2005, 03:54:44 PM by Ebor »

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

I felt the same way when I was researching Nazi Occultism in High School. I have Neo-Nazi relatives, who are actually part Jewish, as I am also, and I decided to start researching contemporary Neo-Nazism.

That's how it worked out for me too... my friend Liesl was a prospective Mormon at the time (now she's agnostic), and I wanted to find out what she believed and why... and it became almost obsessive.

Marjorie

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"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

I mean, I realize that making your own religion probably takes a lot of work, but how could something that obvious slip by?

Because the word "moron" was not used as a term for mental disability until 1910 whereas Joseph Smith said he had his visions in the 1820's (There is some historical discrepancy as to it being in 1820 or 1823).

moron (mo-+ron)NOUN: According to psychologists of the past, a moron was a person with a cognitive disability having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years according to the Binet intelligence tests. Such a person generally had communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term, coined by H.H. Goddard in 1910, belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive.

I believe that one of the best ways of saving people from Mormonism is showing how it is based on silly lies. Mormonism isn't even a religion. A religion would be based on at least some sort of truth. Joseph Smith was a complete fraud and anyone who looks into his life story should find that out.

I know this is not the reviews section but I wanted ask if anyone here has read Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith by Jon Krakauer? It was a national bestseller in during August of 2003 and I remember an acquaintance of mine who really found it interesting. The book describes itself as "[reviewing] the life and beliefs of incarcerated Mormon polygamist Ron Lafferty, who received a "revelation from God" that he was to kill his brother's wife and baby. Twenty years later he is still convinced the deed was righteous, justified in his mind by an extreme fundamentalist rendition of the LDS-based faith." There is more interesting info here http://www.greaterthings.com/Bookstore/Reviews/UnderBannerHeaven/#Book

I believe that one of the best ways of saving people from Mormonism is showing how it is based on silly lies. Mormonism isn't even a religion. A religion would be based on at least some sort of truth. Joseph Smith was a complete fraud and anyone who looks into his life story should find that out.

Showing them the facts of Joseph Smith's life is not the same thing as childish name-calling.

In IC XC,Marjorie

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"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; Gal 1:7 which is {really} not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be eternally damned! Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be eternally damned!

What would be worse, calling a religion moronic or calling a religion satanic? Though I wouldn't tell a Mormon directly that his church is ridiculous, I would politely help him to figure that out.

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; Gal 1:7 which is {really} not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be eternally damned! Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be eternally damned!

Matthew, did you see my other posts in this thread? Where have I said that I agree with Mormonism or that it was not a satanic, soul-destroying cult?

Though Mormonism frightens me to no end, they have plenty of ways to answer to the Gal 1 thing. After all, Paul also says "even if we..." and many of the gospels and epistles were written *after* Galatians by the apostolic witnesses ("we.") So obviously he doesn't mean new scriptures; he means new and distorted teachings. Which Mormonism DOES have, but they don't agree with that.

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What would be worse, calling a religion moronic or calling a religion satanic?

To say that it is from Satan is to give a serious diagnosis and warning. Calling it 'moronic' just sounds like immature name-calling.

Marjorie

« Last Edit: May 07, 2005, 02:33:04 PM by Marjorie »

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"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

Matthew, you say that you would be polite to a Mormon in person. Rudeness repeated can become an unthinking habit. Why is courtesy not necessary in postings? There may well be lurkers coming here who are LDS. When they read, as Majorie wrote, childish put-downs why should they want to hang around or join in? They might just think "The posters here don't know anything about my church, but they're making nasty jokes about it. Why would I want to hear more of what they have to say?"

Let's reverse the roles. Someone from this forum comes across a place that makes what they think are"witty" and "funny" (read snide, childish etc) remarks about EO or EC or RC but at the same time talking about how people in those churches need to be shown the Truth, and that the posters don't see anything wrong in such rudeness. Would you then want to stay there with such petty abuse from people who claim to only have your good in mind?

One other suggestion: such cracks and labels may in fact be satanic, in that they make the speaker writer feel superior while they also may help to keep people who have been labeled from wanting to know more.

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

I believe that one of the best ways of saving people from Mormonism is showing how it is based on silly lies.

And for that you have to actually address the real things that the LDS is based on. But just saying "Your faith is based on silly lies" will convince no one but more then likely drive them away. I have copies of the BoM, "Doctrine and Covenents" and "Pearl of Great Price" on my reference shelves because even you have be tell the truth about people you disagee with and not make up things. So if needed, I can look up and address the *actual* writings and not what someone says it says.

Primary Sources!

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

matthew, you might as well give up. They already are biased against you and I don't think they'll let any mistake you make slip by, or leave any of your assertions unchallenged. For example, it was actually elisha who made a post earlier than you which was fairly childish and was basically calling mormons stupid, but since people aren't prejudiced against him like they are you, they ignored what he said but now find it worthwhile their time to chastise you over and over again, as though anything they'll say will affect you. Not to mention the burning sacrasm that people constantly direct towards your way (remember everyone, the library of congress is keeping track of this site, if Christ's admonitions to love one another doesn't already faze you). I'm not saying I agree with you on what you say, or that you aren't saying offensive things either....but don't expect them to like you because they've already formed an impression in their mind of your inner character...to them, you can do no right. Take a month off the board, find a good, mainstream Orthodox book, and spend that time reading it. In the meantime, these folks would have found a new target (or an old one, like TomS) to direct their ire at.

Now it makes me eager to investigate Mormonism, just to see if what happened to Anastasios is true. I'd like to investigate such things, because I strongly believe that to overcome darkness, one must first know the enemy. If such things really happened, then more than ever we must be careful of such cults.

You can only take this so far. Obviously God allowed that to happen to me for a reason. I am already more disposed to seeing this kind of stuff because I foolishly opened up my "nous" by evil methods when I was an occultist. Although God mercifully shut it back up most of the way, I tend to be more perceptive still to this day in that realm. Plus, God allows such visions for a reason and it's not automatic that you would be able to investigate Mormonism and verify my experience, which was quite personal and obviously directed towards me. I mention that experience because I think God allowed it to happen so I would tell others, but at the same time, I don't think it can be "verified."

For example, it was actually elisha who made a post earlier than you which was fairly childish and was basically calling mormons stupid, but since people aren't prejudiced against him like they are you, they ignored what he said but now find it worthwhile their time to chastise you over and over again, as though anything they'll say will affect you.

Point taken. Forgive me, Matthew.

Marjorie

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"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

I am already more disposed to seeing this kind of stuff because I foolishly opened up my "nous" by evil methods when I was an occultist.

Interesting. I've also dabbled with it for sometime (particularly Wicca), but not very long (maybe just 1 or 2 years and then I quit, since I can't get past the fact that it's against my faith as a Christian), but you're right that somehow my "nous", as you call it, has been opened somehow. I'm afraid it can never bve fully shut, since once you open it, it will remain at least partly opened for the rest of your life. Hhm...maybe I'll open a topic about this one, and see who among here at one time or the other dabbled with such things, and how they got away or quit from it.

Is a cheap-shot at the expense of another religion charitable?-ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¯Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ Suppose a Mormon should come here and read this.-ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¯Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ Addressing the points of the LDS truthfully is one thing and that person might at least read more and engage in discussion.-ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¯Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ But mockery might be more likely to just confirm that those who disagree with his church are not worth debating.-ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¯Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ It might even be along the lines of "They mock my church, that shows that I"m right, since the righteous are persecuted".-ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¯Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ -ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¯Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½

Just a thought.

Ebor

One of them has come here. I'm LDS. I have struggled with my faith, as have many. I can't believe the things I'm reading here. I hope this is not representitive of Orthodox Christians. Also, The Godmakers and Banner of Heaven have all been addressed and you can see the responses at www.fairlds.com. I'm not here to proselyte though. I came to learn more about your church, never realizing I'd be learning this.

This site would be funny if it wasn't so scary. Are you people really filled with this much hate for your fellow human beings or is it just Orthodox Halloween rites you have to go through every October? My gosh.

special underwear at all times. It is very interesting because it is so weird and because there are so many Mormons. How could so many people be duped into this.

I suppose you completely missed the delicious irony of making fun of someone's underwear while wearing an avatar of a funny looking old man dressed up in a costume touching people. At least the Mormons have the good sense to hide their funny clothes! Is this where I talk about you being a demonic cult because you buy your clothes at the wrong church? Help me out here. I want to be a hatemonger, too.

I suppose you completely missed the delicious irony of making fun of someone's underwear while wearing an avatar of aÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š funny looking old man dressed up in a costume touching people.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ::)ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š At least the Mormons have the good sense to hide their funny clothes!ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Is this where I talk about you being a demonic cult because you buy your clothes at the wrong church?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Help me out here.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I want to be a hatemonger, too.

I don't believe anyone was preaching hate. Sometimes people get carried away in an attempt to be humorous, and often, sarcasm is mistaken as anger. I believe this to be especially true when discussions of faith arise.

I suppose you completely missed the delicious irony of making fun of someone's underwear while wearing an avatar of a funny looking old man dressed up in a costume touching people. At least the Mormons have the good sense to hide their funny clothes! Is this where I talk about you being a demonic cult because you buy your clothes at the wrong church? Help me out here. I want to be a hatemonger, too.

Come on now; a particular style of outerwear is a matter of ones’ aesthetic taste - it maybe something new to you, and hence you find it strange or funnyÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦however, special/magical underwear is a matter of ones’ sanity - this is self-evident to those who are sane, and hence requires no explanation.

Peace.

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

I suppose you completely missed the delicious irony of making fun of someone's underwear while wearing an avatar of aÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š funny looking old man dressed up in a costume touching people.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ::)ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š At least the Mormons have the good sense to hide their funny clothes!ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Is this where I talk about you being a demonic cult because you buy your clothes at the wrong church?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Help me out here.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I want to be a hatemonger, too.

I hate the evil I experienced when I visited a Mormon Church and saw demons and a missionary attempted to lure me into the church by sicking hot chicks on me.

One of them has come here. I'm LDS. I have struggled with my faith, as have many. I can't believe the things I'm reading here. I hope this is not representitive of Orthodox Christians. Also, The Godmakers and Banner of Heaven have all been addressed and you can see the responses at www.fairlds.com. I'm not here to proselyte though. I came to learn more about your church, never realizing I'd be learning this.

Here is a lesson. We never know *who* might be lurking and reading what we post. Something to keep in mind...

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Come on now; a particular style of outerwear is a matter of ones’ aesthetic taste - it maybe something new to you, and hence you find it strange or funnyÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦however, special/magical underwear is a matter of ones’ sanity - this is self-evident to those who are sane, and hence requires no explanation.

Peace.

What that poster said to you is out of line. It is my fault though, since I did post a link on an LDS forum for people to see what people here thought of them and for that I'm sorry. That thread was locked, and I've asked for it to be removed all together so no one else comes over here to start trouble.

That being said, I do wear temple garments. They are not "magic underwear" but only underwear with markings reminding you of covenents made in the temple. Yes, some will make rather odd claims about them, but accept them for what they are, wild claims. Every church has members with beliefs outside the mainstream. If anyone is claiming magic powers, they are outside mainstream.

This presupposes the actions or posts of a few individuals speak for the faith.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I've recently been in a RC discussion forum, that is infinitely less charitable than this site.

For someone who may not know EO or OO or RC or Anglicans etc etc in real life, why would actions or posts on-line *not* be seen as speaking for the faith when done by persons who are known to be members of one of those bodies? Why would a person, not knowing much about another church, upon first reading mistaken remarks or cheap-shots about their faith by members of the other body *want* to meet such people in real life. First impressions can be crucial. Who might be driven away by a mocking joke?

What little ones might be offended?

I have seen RC fora like what you describe. And I have seen EO fora/lists that are the same way. and others belonging to other Churches. It is an unfortunate affect of the 'net, I suppose. All manner of things are easily accessable.

Quote

In fact, I think the administrators and global moderators here, bend over backwards to keep things civil.

This is a much better forum then many out there.

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

For someone who may not know EO or OO or RC or Anglicans etc etc in real life, why would actions or posts on-line *not* be seen as speaking for the faith when done by persons who are known to be members of one of those bodies?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Why would a person, not knowing much about another church, upon first reading mistaken remarks or cheap-shots about their faith by members of the other body *want* to meet such people in real life.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š First impressions can be crucial. Who might be driven away by a mocking joke?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

What little ones might be offended?

I have seen RC fora like what you describe.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š And I have seen EO fora/lists that are the same way.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š and others belonging to other Churches. It is an unfortunate affect of the 'net, I suppose.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š All manner of things are easily accessable.

This is a much better forum then many out there.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

Ebor

I don't hold too much hope for anyone who hangs there religious hat on a discussion forum.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š If I wanted to learn more about Roman Catholicism, I'd find many better sources than internet fora.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š To me, this is a form of entertainment (and killing time at work - LOL).

What that poster said to you is out of line. It is my fault though, since I did post a link on an LDS forum for people to see what people here thought of them and for that I'm sorry. That thread was locked, and I've asked for it to be removed all together so no one else comes over here to start trouble.

Too late.

I'm not here to start trouble though.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I'm here to urge you to consider your fellow-poster Ebor's thoughts.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Remember the words of the Savior:

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But whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.

Matthew 18:6

It is understandable that you fear Mormonism.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š You do not understand it.

And as for Anastasios' experience when he went to church, it is the LDS Church, not LSD Church.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Next time don't drop before you drop in. [/size]

« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 05:11:53 AM by Zeezrom »

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"And this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

I don't believe anyone was preaching hate.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Sometimes people get carried away in an attempt to be humorous, and often, sarcasm is mistaken as anger.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I believe this to be especially true when discussions of faith arise.

Sorry if you were offended.

Offended.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I'm laughing my head off at the hypocrisy of "Christians" talking like the demon possessed girl in The Exorcist movie and feeling all warm and righteous.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š This is not hateful,ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š huh?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š It is just Orthodox humor?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Do they teach you this in a special catechism?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Okkkaayyyy

What to say when you get together with "Christian" EOs:

From these brief readings I am convinced that the Mormons are worshipping the Devil. Who else could lead people to do such insane evil things in the name of God.

I know from personal experience that the more you study it (and trust me, it can become obsessive because it's so fascinating and grotesque) the more it almost seems to possess you. I really think there is strong demonic influence there

Not meaning to be condescending but I always thought that the Holy Drawers thing was a little extreme.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I dont think there is a Drawer blessing service in Orthodoxy...is there?

"These Underpants are bless through the sprinkling of this....."

ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Âhen I met a missionary who when he greeted me I could tell was possessed (literally, I don't exaggerate spiritual things) and his eyes actually rolled back in his head when he smiled at me (freaky).

To see that much of the presence of evil gives me chills even on this end of the computer.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Praise God that you are a Christian and were able to see such things for what they were.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š That is truly frightening.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š We so often look at the more rediculous aspects of the religion and forget the demonic and satanic influence of it and how that affects the Mormons' lives.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Thank you for sharing.

ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Remember that the LDS person is blinded by the father of all lies

Basically what I got from Mormons by meeting this co-worker is that they are judgmental and racist.ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¡Ãƒâ€š Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¥ven if rebuffed.

the temples of these groups are houses for demons, and that is what they worship and service - and the devil has a way of making the most degenerate, and (to even the most elementarily logical/rational mind) ridiculous things seem credible and worthy of our energies and devotion.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š This is why the Scriptures make a link between sexual deviancy and idolatry.

I thought instead of having a Satanism Scare we should have a Mormonism Scare. Mormons are all over the place, believe in a god who lives on another planet and has a wife, and requires secret passwords and underwear for you to get into heaven. Who else could this god be but the Devil? Wouldn't have been better for Geraldo Rivera to have told people the dangers of getting involved in Mormonism?

My personal favorite indications of some pretty serious delusions of grandeur in your church (I mean, what else are we to conclude but that you guys consider this an intellectual exercise?):

your average Mormon (in my experience) has very, very little real understanding of what their church believes and teaches

But you do.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Most Mormons who frequent websites could tie you up in knots, dear.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š They not only know Christian history and the Bible, they can actually talk without calling in Satan and demons for back up!

To say that it is from Satan is to give a serious diagnosis and warning. Calling it 'moronic' just sounds like immature name-calling.

The dialogue here was so shocking it went up on a website that gets thousands of hits a day.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Trust me.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Mormons are reading this.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š it is probably their first introduction to Eastern Orthodox.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Pretty pathetic.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I always thought of your religion as something with beautiful tradition.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I am sickened at the superstition and ignorance it obviously fosters beneath the pomp and ceremony.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

OK I am not trying to be sarcastic here, but that's what we believe happens when you have the right faith. We don't believe you guys have many experiences with demons as you are not the true faith. I'm not trying to be offensive, just honest.

And I was not dropping acid when I visited an LDS Church. Trust me. Even if I were imagining the demonic activity I saw, I didn't image the missionary tell me straight up that if I went Mormon I can marry some of the hot chicks that were flirting with me non stop (not by my desire though!) Yes, maybe htat was one bad Mormon, but I am not the only person who has heard of love bombing. Would you care to enlighten me if this activity is officially discouraged?

OK I am not trying to be sarcastic here, but that's what we believe happens when you have the right faith. We don't believe you guys have many experiences with demons as you are not the true faith. I'm not trying to be offensive, just honest.

Am I understanding you to say that your church encourages visitations from demons...? What I find astounding is that anyone in any religion would be so foolish as to start fingerpointing when every religion has absurd practices to an outsider. The only way you can win at the "yuck yuck" method of persuasion is to take your message to teenagers or to attain enough political power to silence onlookers.

And I was not dropping acid when I visited an LDS Church. Trust me.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Even if I were imagining the demonic activity I saw, I didn't image the missionary tell me straight up that if I went Mormon I can marry some of the hot chicks that were flirting with me non stop (not by my desire though!) Yes, maybe htat was one bad Mormon, but I am not the only person who has heard of love bombing.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Would you care to enlighten me if this activity is officially discouraged?

Love bombing? Aren't you getting your cults confused? I believe that was a practice of the organization that used prostitution to bring in members. I think it is safe to say that it is "officially discouraged". Seriously, I am worried that my IQ is dropping 5 points every time I have to answer these kinds of questions. Are you not allowed to have any interaction with society outside of your own religion?

Excuse the intrusion. I just wanted to say that even though I disagree with the theology the Mormons and the CLDS, I still adhere to the call of Christ when he says to love our neighbor. Wowser, you must know that the internet is not the best way to get an understanding of Orthodox Christians(or any other religion for that matter). So take heart in knowing that everyone who participates in this forum is not representative of Orthodox Christianity as a whole. We are all sinners who struggle daily to follow our Savior Jesus Christ. Please show compassion and forgive the ones who hurt you and your beliefs. Keep praying and trust that God will reveal to you the Truth. Best wishes, Juliana

Am I understanding you to say that your church encourages visitations from demons...?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š What I find astounding is that anyone in any religion would be so foolish as to start fingerpointing when every religion has absurd practices to an outsider.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š The only way you can win at the "yuck yuck" method of persuasion is to take your message to teenagers or to attain enough political power to silence onlookers.

Sorry, I was not clear. We believe that people in the true faith will have more negative experiences with demons (i.e. attacks and temptations) by virtue of the fact that demons don't need to attack persons in a false faith as much given that they are already in error and thus outside of grace. I am not sure what you mean by absurd practices to the outsider though.

Quote

Love bombing?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Aren't you getting your cults confused?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I believe that was a practice of the organization that used prostitution to bring in members.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I think it is safe to say that it is "officially discouraged".ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Seriously,ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I am worried that my IQ is dropping 5 points every time I have to answer these kinds of questions.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Are you not allowed to have any interaction with society outside of your own religion?

The title comes from another cult (the Moonies I believe) but it is the same thing that I and others have experienced from Mormons. You get sucked in by people acting overly nice and loving, which helps break down your barriers to the teachings. My Mormon missionary aquaintence BLUNTLY and EXPLICITLY told me I should convert to Mormonism so as to have access to the "hot chicks" who "seem to like you."

As far as your IQ dropping: if you find it distasteful to answer questions from people who have had negative experiences with your Church, then you do not represent your faith well. Your dismissive and elitist response is not appreciated. I asked a very simple question: does your Church tell missionaries not to try to lure people in with promises of friendship, love, and social connections? Because if it does, the message didn't reach a lot of missionaries.

I am not sure what the heck you mean about interraction with members of society outside our own religion. I was able to visit a Mormon church, remember?

Excuse the intrusion.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I just wanted to say that even though I disagree with the theology theÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Mormons and the CLDS, I still adhere to the call of Christ when he says to love our neighbor.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Wowser,ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š you must know that the internet is not the best way to get an understanding of Orthodox Christians(or any other religion for that matter).ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š So take heart in knowing that everyone who participates in this forum is not representative of Orthodox Christianity as a whole.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š We are all sinners who struggle daily to follow our Savior Jesus Christ.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Please show compassion and forgive the ones who hurt you and your beliefs.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Keep praying and trust that God will reveal to you the Truth.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Best wishes,ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š JulianaÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

I don't think Wowser has exhibited any love towards us who are by his Church's standards ignorant of the truth and his and all Mormons' resposibility to evangelize.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I hope that he is not representative of Mormonism. (actually I know he is not because he is not like the Mormon friends I have had in my life with whom I had many fascinating discussions about theology [which is why I was visiting the Mormon Church that day when I had the evil experience]).

Congratulations, you've managed to completely misinterpret what I said to you. I was, if you couldn't tell, trying to offer an olive branch. Your assumptions, and continual finger pointing aren't going to win you to many friends.

A second award of distinction is in order for misunderstanding Anastasios as well, who; (a) speaks from his personal experience and; (b) is amongst the most tolerant (and patient) people I've ever discussed anything with. I think you should re-read our posts.

Look at the title of this thread.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Replace "Mormonism" with another word, like say "Orthodoxy" or "Anglicanism" or <Your Ethnic Group here>.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Put the same word(s) in some of the posts.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š How would it feel to you to see your own Church, or ethnic group or some other association that means a whole lot to you in somethings like what was written here last May?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Would you be angry?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Would you say "They know nothing about my church/ethnic group/etc but they say it must be stopped." ?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Could you laugh it off?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Would it make you want to be part of what the people saying those things were in?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

Empathy. Compassion.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Members of other Churchs are Human Beings too, with feelings and reasons and souls.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š How does our Master want us to treat other People? What love is shown to a passing LDS in this thread? Why should love be expected from one after reading it?

Ebor

« Last Edit: October 27, 2005, 11:34:47 PM by Ebor »

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

I don't think Wowser has exhibited any love towards us who are by his Church's standards ignorant of the truth and his and all Mormons' resposibility to evangelize.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I hope that he is not representative of Mormonism. (actually I know he is not because he is not like the Mormon friends I have had in my life with whom I had many fascinating discussions about theology [which is why I was visiting the Mormon Church that day when I had the evil experience]).

Anastasios

Maybe Wowzer is hurt and angry. Why expect him/her to exhibit love where no love was percieved but instead derision? Did you discuss "demonic' occurences with your RL Mormon friends?

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

I don't hold too much hope for anyone who hangs there religious hat on a discussion forum.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š If I wanted to learn more about Roman Catholicism, I'd find many better sources than internet fora.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š To me, this is a form of entertainment (and killing time at work - LOL).

But not everyone is like you, SS. For some this may be their first toe in the water of EO. And if the first experience is bad, it is a very Human thing to not want to be exposed to it again: "Once bitten, twice shy."

For you this is entertainment; for others it may be trying to get serious information. They may not live in a place where there is any EO church or many/any books on it in the library. They may have read one bit on it and want to know more and somehow end up here.

We can't know how much a lurker knows or can handle. But might it be better to lean to compassion rather then not having much hope?

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

I am not sure what you mean by absurd practices to the outsider though.

Bowing and kissing a picture (icon) might look absurd to an outsider. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š The administering of communion with a little spoon might be another example. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Some things in Anglican custom I'm sure look peculiar or just plain weird to those who don't know what it's all about. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Things we're familiar with aren't odd to *us*, but to someone who doesn't know what's going on, or has no fraime of reference they can look "absurd". ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

Quote

My Mormon missionary aquaintence BLUNTLY and EXPLICITLY told me I should convert to Mormonism so as to have access to the "hot chicks" who "seem to like you."

I am hearing in my mind a voice saying "hey, if you become Orthodox you can marry a beautiful <Ethnic Group here> girl!" Probably from hanging around the Slavic Chorus too long. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

But not everyone is like you, SS. For some this may be their first toe in the water of EO. And if the first experience is bad, it is a very Human thing to not want to be exposed to it again: "Once bitten, twice shy."ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

For you this is entertainment; for others it may be trying to get serious information.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š They may not live in a place where there is any EO church or many/any books on it in the library.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š They may have read one bit on it and want to know more and somehow end up here.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

We can't know how much a lurker knows or can handle.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š But might it be better to lean to compassion rather then not having much hope?

Ebor

Without beating a dead horse (I hope I'm not offending horses), but I don't put too much stock in the seriousness of the statement above. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Heck in the day and age of the internet, you can get volumes of reading materials about Orthodoxy with the click of a mouse button, but that is besides the point.

Without beating a dead horse (I hope I'm not offending horses), but I don't put too much stock in the seriousness of the statement above. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Heck in the day and age of the internet, you can get volumes of reading materials about Orthodoxy with the click of a mouse button, but that is besides the point.

I was trying to be concilliatory, can't you see that???

*I* can see that. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š But it wasn't my ox being gored. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I found and read the thread over on the LDS forum about this thread. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š The people there had, let's say, some very negative views of EO after reading this one. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š It is sometimes hard to see concilatory after being mocked and derided, maybe.

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Excuse the intrusion.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I just wanted to say that even though I disagree with the theology theÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Mormons and the CLDS, I still adhere to the call of Christ when he says to love our neighbor.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Wowser,ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š you must know that the internet is not the best way to get an understanding of Orthodox Christians(or any other religion for that matter).ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š So take heart in knowing that everyone who participates in this forum is not representative of Orthodox Christianity as a whole.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š We are all sinners who struggle daily to follow our Savior Jesus Christ.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Please show compassion and forgive the ones who hurt you and your beliefs.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Keep praying and trust that God will reveal to you the Truth.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Best wishes,ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š JulianaÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

Thank you for the thoughtful words. I pray that God may reveal his truth to you, as well.

Congratulations, you've managed to completely misinterpret what I said to you.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I was, if you couldn't tell, trying to offer an olive branch.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Your assumptions, and continual finger pointing aren't going to win you to many friends.

A second award of distinction is in order for misunderstanding Anastasios as well, who; (a) speaks from his personal experience and; (b) is amongst the most tolerant (and patient) people I've ever discussed anything with.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I think you should re-read our posts.

Seriously, you guys must live on another planet. I hope it isn't the one you say I am getting. I'm really not aware of any place in America where sane people go around talking about experiences with demons while carrying around such stupid superstitions about other religions. Something like pot, meet kettle comes to mind. When I start calling your religion satanic instead of you, that is when I will be fingerpointing. Right now a group is gathered around this computer howling with laughter over the things some of you are saying. I am cleaning cookie crumbs from my keyboard. Do you believe in vampires? Does Halloween scare you? Oh, John wants to know if your demons fly in black helicopters.

Maybe Wowzer is hurt and angry. Why expect him/her to exhibit love where no love was percieved but instead derision?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Did you discuss "demonic' occurences with your RL Mormon friends?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

Ebor

Wowzer is having a good time watching this almost medieval display of bigotry and ignorance. Oops. That is redundant. I just hope that you guys aren't allowed to play with matches when around other religions. Ebor, anyone can see that you are fighting a noble yet losing battle with this crew. I am encouraged that there are two posters in here who probably do represent their religion with honor, however.

One question for the deep thinkers in here (I think my IQ is down at least 50 points by now). This is a real important theological point. Am I, as satan's spawn expected to show love? You will have to explain to me why that is satan's job and not yours.

Anyone that wants to know about mormonism should watch a film called the Godmakers. Totally exposes Joe Smith for the fraud he was. He was so noble that he was shot in jail by a hoard of angry men who were pissed off at him seducing wives & young women to marry him, thats some prophet.... Also, the whole book of mormon is a joke. It reads as if it were written by a third grader with totally debunked geography and people. To this date not a shred of evidence can back up this pack of lies. I found myself in constant amazement that anyone could take such a shoddy piece of work so seriously after reading through it. Mormonism claims that it is the true faith restored, but it's just about the farthest thing from 1st & 2nd century christian writings/tradition and what the church believed at the time. Who the hell would believe in the first place that suddenly after 1900 years of darkness that some magical scrolls descend from heaven which bears the text of the book of mormon in 16th century english? It's nice to know God wasn't taking his sweet time or anything, lets thank the mormons for getting us back on the right track after 1900 years of heretics.......

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"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

does your Church tell missionaries not to try to lure people in with promises of friendship, love, and social connections?

I can state categorically that the Church does not try to lure people into the Church, period. We offer what we have and encourage the investigator to ponder and pray for a witness of the Holy Spirit.

How old were you when these missionaries of whom you spoke told you you could marry a "hot chick" if you joined? I am guessing you were probably close to the same age, and the missionaries' statement was lighthearted. Certainly not to be taken seriously. Ok?

The Church instructs the missionaries to teach investigators under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Converts should only be baptized after they have received a confirming witness from the Holy Spirit and are committed to keeping all of the commandments of the Lord as revealed through latter-day prophets. It's not an easy commitment to make, and something more than the promise of a "hot chick" prompts people to make the commitment.

Ebor wrote:

Quote

Bowing and kissing a picture (icon) might look absurd to an outsider. The administering of communion with a little spoon might be another example

You guys do that?!?!? Weird.

Seriously Ebor, thanks for your comments. I understand that this Board is not representative of mainstream OC, just as Wowser is not representative of mainstream LDS.

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"And this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

Anyone that wants to know about mormonism should watch a film called the Godmakers. Totally exposes Joe Smith for the fraud he was. He was so noble that he was shot in jail by a hoard of angry men who were pissed off at him seducing wives & young women to marry him, thats some prophet.... Also, the whole book of mormon is a joke. It reads as if it were written by a third grader with totally debunked geography and people. To this date not a shred of evidence can back up this pack of lies. I found myself in constant amazement that anyone could take such a shoddy piece of work so seriously after reading through it. Mormonism claims that it is the true faith restored, but it's just about the farthest thing from 1st & 2nd century christian writings/tradition and what the church believed at the time. Who the hell would believe in the first place that suddenly after 1900 years of darkness that some magical scrolls descend from heaven which bears the text of the book of mormon in 16th century english? It's nice to know God wasn't taking his sweet time or anything, lets thank the mormons for getting us back on the right track after 1900 years of heretics.......

I swore I wasn't coming back to this thread, but I must respond. The Godmakers does misrepresent the church. In fact, a number of protestant ministers have come forward and admitted as much. It has also been throughly documented as deceptive in the book "The Truth About The Godmakers" by Gilbert Scharffs.

Joseph Smith was shot by an angry mob. He is not the first or last to die for his faith. He wasn't killed for seducing their wives. There were many factors involved, polygamy being only one. The women he did marry were LDS though, not from the mobbers.

Evidence for the Book of Mormon. First off, let me state evidence still wouldn't change anyone's mind. Even if you could prove any church to be correct, some would still not believe. Also too, what would proof do? Religion is faith, and faith is believe in things not seen. Would there be any faith involved if it could be proven? There is a debate on evidence though, and if you care to see the other side of it, here is a link for you. http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ Prowl around there and you can see the other side of pretty much any criticism of the church.

There were no magic scrolls decending from heaven. It doesn't sound like you know much about the church to voice such criticism. I did not come here to proselyte for the LDS church, but I won't not defend it from misrepresentation either.

I am certain I will not be around long.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Any board that allows hatemongering to this extent is not likely to be comfortable with it being pointed out.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

Boy are you Mormons touchy. By the very fact this is an Orthodox Christian forum, you are not going to find people praising your cult since they do not believe in it. No one has been even slightly aggressive, but have just stated what they believe to be the truth. This may be unpallatable to you, but too bad.

There can be aggression in mockery and cheap shots. Saying something "needs to be stopped" could be construed as aggressive or an attack.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š What if this thread were on another forum and it denounced EO?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

How does this thread make Eastern Orthodoxy look good?

Ebor

If this thread were about RCism, Anglicanism, or any other Christian denomination, I would agree with you 100%. All of these Churches are capable of rational discussion with Orthodoxy and as such we should engage them politely. However, Mormonism by its nature is a non-Christian organization that is quite aggressive towards non-Mormons and which is a real and clear threat to Christianity, in my opinion. Mormons are much more successful than SDA's and JW's in proselytizing people and we need to take an aggressive stand with Mormons, just as with Muslims, but one that we might not take with other Christian denominations.

I agree also after rereading some of the posts that outright mocking Mormonism is not a Christian thing to do but we must oppose the untruth of Mormonism, and many of these things that were made fun of in this thread are mocking aside, quite foreign to Christianity and should be denounced.

I am not too sympathetic to wowser because his style is not to educate but to make fun of us as individuals which is not something I believe we have done to any Mormon on this board. Normally someone saying "has your IQ gone down" etc would be warned but I think we will not do that to Wowswer given that he is on the defensive. But I don't want to see posters calling other posters stupid in a blatent fashion.

Perhaps some will say I am a bigot but when it comes down to it, I just don't think we can extend to Mormonism (not individual Mormons mind you, who must be treated with love and respect) the same courtesy that we do to other Christian Churches given its different tone, objectives, and aggressiveness.

We believe in one God the father almighty. Maker of heaven and Earth and every thing visibl and invisible.And in one Lord Jesus Christ , the son of God, the only begotten. Begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light, True God of True God. Begotten not made. Of one essence of the Father by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was born of the Holy Spirit and the Ever Virgin Mary and became man. And he was crucified by Pontious Pilate and suffered and was buried and the third day he rose again according to the scriptures. And he shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. Whose kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Spirit. The Lord and Giver of Life. who proceeds from the Father. Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified. Who spoke by the prophets. And I believe in one Holy catholic and apostolic church. In one Baptizm for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. Amen. the Nicean Creed. what does mormonism say to that?

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Heaven is full of people who do not deserve to be there and oddly absent of those who think they do.

We believe in one God the father almighty. Maker of heaven and Earth and every thing visibl and invisible.And in one Lord Jesus Christ , the son of God, the only begotten. Begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light, True God of True God. Begotten not made. Of one essence of the Father by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was born of the Holy Spirit and the Ever Virgin Mary and became man. And he was crucified by Pontious Pilate and suffered and was buried and the third day he rose again according to the scriptures. And he shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. Whose kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Spirit. The Lord and Giver of Life. who proceeds from the Father. Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified. Who spoke by the prophets. And I believe in one Holy catholic and apostolic church. In one Baptizm for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. Amen.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š the Nicean Creed.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š what does mormonism say to that?

They will say the believe the same...but with things defined differently.

We believe in one God the father almighty. Maker of heaven and Earth and every thing visible and invisible. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š And in one Lord Jesus Christ , the son of God, the only begotten. Begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light, True God of True God. Begotten not made.

The First Article of Faith of the LDS Church is: ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Of one essence of the Father by whom all things were made.

I am not certain what this means. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š The LDS Church does not believe in the Trinity. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š The LDS Church believes that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate and distinct beings, always and forever. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š We believe that all scriptural references to the Father and the Son being one is in reference to their unity of purpose, as Christ told His apostles to be one, even as He and His Father were one. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š This is, admittedly, a substantial deviation from what most mainstream Christians believe.

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was born of the Holy Spirit and the Ever Virgin Mary and became man. And he was crucified by Pontious Pilate and suffered and was buried and the third day he rose again according to the scriptures.

The LDS Church believes this. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š We believe in the literal resurrection of the Savior.

And he shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. Whose kingdom shall have no end.

We believe in, and look forward with great anticipation to, the Second Coming of the Savior. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š We believe that Christ shall establish His Kingdom on earth, and that all men will stand before God to be judged according to their works.

And in the Holy Spirit. The Lord and Giver of Life. who proceeds from the Father. Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified. Who spoke by the prophets.

Again, we believe in the Holy Ghost, that he/she ( ) is a personage of spirit, separate and distinct from the Father and the Son, and who is worshipped as an equal member of the Godhead.

And I believe in one Holy catholic and apostolic church.

No, we do not believe in the Catholic Church. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š We believe in one true and living Church, restored in these latter-days as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, presided over by Jesus Christ, and directed through his holy prophets and the Council of the Twelve Apostles as currently constituted upon the earth.

In one Baptism for the remission of sins.

The LDS Church believes in and practices baptism by immersion for the remission of sins. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š The LDS Church also believes in and practices the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come.

We look with great anticipation to the literal resurrection of all mankind from the dead, when the spirit and the flesh shall be reunited and thereafter enjoy everlasting life.

Hope this was helpful.

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"And this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

We believe in one God the father almighty. Maker of heaven and Earth and every thing visibl and invisible.And in one Lord Jesus Christ , the son of God, the only begotten. Begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light, True God of True God. Begotten not made. Of one essence of the Father by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was born of the Holy Spirit and the Ever Virgin Mary and became man. And he was crucified by Pontious Pilate and suffered and was buried and the third day he rose again according to the scriptures. And he shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. Whose kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Spirit. The Lord and Giver of Life. who proceeds from the Father. Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified. Who spoke by the prophets. And I believe in one Holy catholic and apostolic church. In one Baptizm for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. Amen.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š the Nicean Creed.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š what does mormonism say to that?

That is is not biblical. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š You do not find this kind of philosophical language from any apostles or Christ or anything close. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š But if it works for you more power to you. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I have to go now. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Satan is calling.

I am not too sympathetic to wowser because his style is not to educate but to make fun of us as individuals which is not something I believe we have done to any Mormon on this board.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Normally someone saying "has your IQ gone down" etc would be warned but I think we will not do that to Wowswer given that he is on the defensive.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š But I don't want to see posters calling other posters stupid in a blatent fashion.

Oh! I get it! Calling people the spawn of satan is educational! Mocking and making vile, disgusting comments about what others consider sacred is just, well, recreational! Do you guys get together at the West Wall and laugh at the Jews in their funny outfits, too? And those Native Americans, get a load of them in that garb! I wish I could be more like you but I am the spawn of Satan and must be satisfied with demonic activities. I can never hope to acheive the level of Godliness that would bring me to engage in such Christlike behaviors.

Perhaps some will say I am a bigot but when it comes down to it, I just don't think we can extend to Mormonism (not individual Mormons mind you, who must be treated with love and respect) the same courtesy that we do to other Christian Churches given its different tone, objectives, and aggressiveness.

Courtesy is always a bad thing for Christians. You wouldn't want to be caught dead at the judgement seat admitting that you were civil and respectful to the wrong kind of people.