Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, now ---- 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: "Urteil" means "judgment", does it? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
"Urteil" is "judgment", yes, or "verdict". 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can you just read the next rather long convoluted 5sentence? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
"As I have now seen the complete document with my own 7eyes, I do not doubt that it is genuine, and should there 8be a second edition of my Dresden book, this information 9should certainly be incorporated, possibly as an appendix, 10perhaps mentioned instead on pages 295 to 296 of the 11present appendix on these pages". 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Including the number of dead? You do not say that, but 13that is what you mean, is it not? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, reproducing the document and I believe I am right in 15saying that is what we actually did. We reproduced the 16document in toto as an appendix which is what one would do 17with a document that one wants to present to readers 18without necessarily forming a judgment on it. 19MR RAMPTON: You say that, Mr Irving. You see, what I am I am 20wondering is how it came about, as I shall shortly, 21I hope, show. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
I have to introduce the caveat, of course, you are asking 23me about things that lie 36 years back. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Of course. This is why contemporaneous documents are so 25valuable, Mr Irving. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Indeed, and if you ask for my recollection of things, like

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1what I said at a meeting with a man in his front room... 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will show you the documents. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, it is better that we refer to the documents. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why it was, Mr Irving, that with such rapidity between 526th November and onwards, from 26th November onwards, 6your lingering doubts, if indeed you had any, about the 7reliability of the numbers seems to have evaporated? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I do not think I have referred in this letter -- 9I may be mistaken -- to saying, I do not think I have said 10that the figure is genuine. I have said the document 11appears to be genuine, but I have doubts, as I make quite 12plain in the letter two days earlier to McLachlan, who is 13an intelligence chief himself, about the actual figure. 14So, clearly, one has to carry out further investigations. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Let us see what you said, roughly speaking, a week 16later ---- 17A.
[Mr Irving]
If I can just continue? Of course, clearly, it would have 18been improper for me to suppress the document in any way. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am not suggesting you should have done, not for a 20moment. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It might have been an interesting document. It turned out 23to be ---- 24A.
[Mr Irving]
It turned out 20 or 30 years later to be totally fake, and 25interesting in as much as it was issued by the Goebbels 26propaganda ministry.

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1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Actually about 10 years later but that does not matter. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
As far as I am concerned, it was 20 or 30 years later. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Let us see how your attitude to this document, which 4I quite accept you did not know at the time was a fake, 5though you had expressed considerable doubts about the 6reliability of the figures up until now. 6th December 71964, you wrote to the Provost of Coventry. The only 8mistake in Miss Rogers' document is that she describes the 9Provost of Coventry as Mr Cunningham. That is, in fact, 10Mr Irving's telephone number, telephone exchange? 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: She is too young to have remembered that. 12MR RAMPTON: It was Cunningham 8426 for anybody that is 13interested. It was late at night, I know that. That is 14on page 40 of this document. This, I think ---- 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Can we look previously on December 1st, the letter where 16I am writing to the German Federal archives trying to make 17attempts to find out more about the people concerned and 18the authenticity of the document? 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Again I have no translation of this which is why I have 20not referred to it. If it is important, please tell us 21what it says. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
"Dear Colonel Teska, during a recent visit to Dresden, I 23have received from an erstwhile officer in Dresden who 24during the war was the Local Chief Medic in Dresden, 25Dr Max Funfack a copy of the attached document. As you 26can see, it is supposed to be an order of the day issued

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1by the Dresden Police Chief in which for the first time 2the number of air raid dead is provisionally estimated at 3202,040. Obviously, it is important for me to establish 4how genuine this document is, and I am trying to locate 5the officers who signed this document, Colonel Grosse", 6G-R-O-S-S-E, and so on. I have written to the German 7Federal Government, the archivist trying to track down the 8authenticity of the document. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is very proper, if I may say so, a very proper 10proceeding, Mr Irving. Before you barge into the public 11arena waving the document and saying how wicked the Allies 12were, it is best to be sure that the document is genuine 13and the figure is reliable, do you not agree? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I consider this to be wicked, burning thousands of bodies 15at a time in a public funeral. You may say: "So what?", 16but you are saying about how wicked the Allies are. It is 17a war crime and there is no way round it. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Let us clear the air. Nobody on this side of the court is 19supposing that it is a jolly good thing that, let us say, 2025,000 or 35,000 innocent German civilians were roasted to 21death in Dresden in 1945. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Roasted to death? 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We are concerned about your gigantic appetite for 24distorting and exaggerating; that is all I am concerned 25with. I think it was your correspondent -- I cannot 26remember his name now -- a German gentleman who drew your

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1attention to the fact that it was probably only 35,000? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Only 35,000 people burned alive in one night by the 3British. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, and he said ---- 5A.
[Mr Irving]
A charming term of phrase, only 35,000. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
As opposed to the huge figures you were punting about and 7he said, with which nobody would disagree, that is bad 8enough, that is two divisions. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
At least he did not say: "So what?" 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving, I think you are being unfair 11when you pick on that phrase when it was used in context 12and Mr Rampton was not belittling the tragedy of the 13bombing. So you have made your point. I do not think it 14is a fair one, but let us move on. 15MR RAMPTON: Do you not think it even worst or even more of an 16offence to those people who died in Germany and 17Dresden ---- 18A.
[Mr Irving]
I think his Lordship has said that we should move on. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- To exaggerate the numbers of the dead for your own 20base-political purposes, do you not think that would be 21worse, Mr Irving? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
I think his Lordship said we should move on. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a different point, but, anyway, 24I think it is comment. 25MR RAMPTON: Is there anything else in this letter from you to 26Colonel Teska on 1st December 1964 to which you want to