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We were actually surprised when Kin Tama said the sparring of these two international champions was slow and of a low level. To us their sparring was fast and of a very high level.

Before I began systematic sparring practice at my current kung fu school, the video clip also looked quite slow to me. I guess I and probably Kin Tama are used to the flashy choreographed stuff seen in kung fu movies.

But based on my experience, Andrew is right: the sparring in this clip is quite fast.

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I read this thread with interest. Honsetly I kind of like Kin Tama. He calls it like he sees it, and I respect that. He also held his ground against all of us who have studied with Sifu.

I don't know that the modern arts can really be reconciled with good traditional kung-fu. The thinking is just completely different. I hope the MMAs are learning from traditionalists, because I'm learning from them.

I've lost and won many matches. Winning's not really the point, improvement is. If I ever sparred with Kin Tama, the loser should by the winner a steak, and we'll leave it at that. If there were pictures of our sparring, then there should also be pictures of us enjoying said steak.

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Here are my observations - some food for thought
One of the area in which original kung has changed is in issuing of power. Classical kung/taijutsu would have been trained in using whole body movements in order to generate powerand enable kung fu fight from classical stances. This is not possible today with the modern body mechanics which have been adopted from boxing/kick boxing where power is generally issued with a driving/pushing force from the back leg. This is also why when modern day kung fu/wushu fighters try fighting from classical stances and use actual fighting waza from thier forms, it feels somewhat awkward, weak and impractical.

This is also why many people who have not expereinced trained in classical warrior fighting traditions such as taijutsu or shaolin kung fu do not possess the trained eye to recognize the power being issued by participants or the skill involved in sparring in a classical fighting manner. In fact videos and pictures of classical sparring often seem to portray the techniques being used as weak or inefficient, because the physical indicators of power in a movement are different (more subtle) in classical whole body power issuing, than from the more visually apparent indicators of power in the body mechanics of modern kickboxing and sparring which are based largely muscular force.
Warm Regards Every One

Gord

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[QUOTE=karasu] One of the area in which original kung has changed is in issuing of power. Classical kung/taijutsu would have been trained in using whole body movements in order to generate powerand enable kung fu fight from classical stances. This is not possible today with the modern body mechanics which have been adopted from boxing/kick boxing where power is generally issued with a driving/pushing force from the back leg.
QUOTE]

Interesting, Gordon. But in Sifu's webpages on Taijiquan Push Hands and Striking Hands, it is stated the the power of pushes comes from the back leg. I think there is some way to reconcile this with what you said above about whole body movement (which I agree with fully). I just cannot explain it though.

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I read this thread with interest. Honsetly I kind of like Kin Tama. He calls it like he sees it, and I respect that. He also held his ground against all of us who have studied with Sifu.

I would have to agree.. the man has balls

it is stated the the power of pushes comes from the back leg. I think there is some way to reconcile this with what you said above about whole body movement

I think we may just be getting caught up in words here and there isnt a contradiction in practice only in the theory. In the few tai chi lessons i was lucky to have we learned that in every movement the whole body is engaged not just the hand or the leg but all of them arms waist legs ankles move as a whole. This doesnt contradict with the fact that the back leg might be an 'anchor' while pushing but the rest of the body is also being used.

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Thank you Zhang Wuji, you made a good point and I will try to explain my observations a little more clearly. I don't think there is a contradiction, but I would like to point out that I am sharing my observations based on my own personal experience.

I will try to be more clear
[QUOTE=Zhang Wuji]

Originally posted by karasu

One of the area in which original kung has changed is in issuing of power. Classical kung/taijutsu would have been trained in using whole body movements in order to generate powerand enable kung fu fight from classical stances. This is not possible today with the modern body mechanics which have been adopted from boxing/kick boxing where power is generally issued with a driving/pushing force from the back leg.
QUOTE]

Interesting, Gordon. But in Sifu's webpages on Taijiquan Push Hands and Striking Hands, it is stated the the power of pushes comes from the back leg. I think there is some way to reconcile this with what you said above about whole body movement (which I agree with fully). I just cannot explain it though.

I'll do my best here.
Let start with the assumption that powerful kung fu movements begin at the feet with a strong connection to the ground, then the travels up through the body. Another important principle of movement is that the physical motions motion to execute any technique involves a series of both a pushing and pulling actions.

For example, when shifting from a false leg stance to a bow and arrow stance, this movement requires some type of pulling action from the front leg combined with some pushing action with the rear leg. The porportion of pushing and pulling action involved in shifting the body from one stance to another stance will change depending on where you are in the transition to the new stance. To control the foreward shifting motion the classical trained kung fu fighter (who uses whole body movements) will rely on the back leg somewhat more to control the force and direction of the shifting motion. However, the pulling action of the front leg/hips also provides an important stabilizing efect that enables the kung fu fighter to shift positions and coordinate all the pushing and pulling motions throughout the body so the whole body moves asa single unit. This is partly why a good kung fu/taijutsu based figher can stop and change the directio of his or her movment at any time. He or she is in control of the whole body.

This partly where the sayng comes from that "there is only one fist" because the power is generated by the whole body in a single unified movement

Where as a modern boxer/kickboxer/karateka tends to use more foreward momentum by only pushing off the back leg. A greater reliance on this type momentum based movements means there is tendency to use individuals muscles groups combined with momentum to generate force. An example of this might the diference between kung fu whirwind kick and karate roundhouse kick. So there is a much bigger push off the back leg in order to shift foreward or pulling motion in the cae of a spinning kick.

A reliance on momentum to generate power means it will be more difficult to change the direction/angle of a particular technique once the movement has been initated.

For example, when delivering a front stomp kick with the rear leg you will see that modern karateka/kickboxer drive through with a kind of pushing motion driving off the back leg and which usually lead the fighter to pivot on the balls of toes of the supporting leg. Classically trained kung fighter who uses what I refer to as whole-body-motion, will sink his hips somewhat, and pivot on his heels to generate a kind of relaxed whole body power, almost as if there is a kind of sling shot effect that drives the kicking leg foreward.Physically the second way also feels more relaxed, especially in the hips.

Many high level fighting techniques also often combine simultanious striking and joint locking. This requires the fighter to be able to move his whole body as a single unit and use the pushing movement to strike and the the pulling movement to capture and lock. This is more difficult to achieve with the body mechanics that rely primarily on pushing/driving off the back leg and momentun to generate force frequently used by boxers and kickboxers.

I hope this helps. Quite honestly I find that I would have to be here all day typing to give a more detailed answer. This is not always an easy concept to grasp and has often taken my students several months to grasp and put into practice. SO I am not sure I can do the topic justice by trying to explain it on a forum.

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If I may be permitted to share my own understanding of the subject (which I had no time to pen in my last post).....

I believe that Sifu mentioned the use of the back leg because of the Taijiquan classics principle which states that the root comes from the foot, issued through the leg (thigh?), controlled by the waist and expressed through the fingers (or other extremeties). Secondly, because of the Taijiquan manner of moving, where one leg is fully weighted before picking up the other foot to move forward, When the front foot touches the ground, the back foot's weight is slowly distributed partly to the front.

As I was taught and which I have also experienced in my daily practice, when there is a fajing movement, power is issued in two directions simultaneously - one in the striking movement, and the other sinking down. In other words, every strike is properly rooted. In some movements, the back leg is almost irrelevant at the point of contact since the power sinks down the front foot, but it was the rear leg that provided the first stage of the fajing action. This is not the same as physical momentum in boxing or external arts, but a shifting of the weight/energy for optimal balance. If this were not so, I would have tripped over my front leg, given the "push" from the rear leg. To summarise, power comes from the rear foor and is rooted in either the front, rear or both at the point of striking.
[Sifu, our instructors and Stier Sifu have also written on this, and much more eloquently too]

I also fully agree with Gordon that all this stuff is really difficult to write. But there is value in putting our experiences down in writing, because even if our experiences cannot always be be understandable to some, those who have already tasted the same would be able to share the similar sentiments. Most of the Taijiquan classics are still a mystery to me, but some have come alive in the most exhilarating way.

For the same reason, the video clips may make no sense to those who have not been walking the same path as we in Shaolin Wahnam yet are most illuminating to those who have practised even the basic combat sequences. Of course, I am a total beginner when it comes to the fighting aspects of Shaolinquan and Taijiquan but understanding our school's philosophy helps me to go beyond the obvious indications of speed and flashy moves.

Incidentally, Kin Tama, would you object to this thread being retitled something else? I was thinking that "Sparring of Shaolin Wahnam as shown in the video clips" might be an appropropriate title. The current title says nothing about the contents of this thread.

百德以孝为先
Persevere in correct practice

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Hello Everyone,
I've been viewing this thread with both belly laughs and loud groans while Kin Tama worked so hard to argue (as I saw it) with everyone in your school. In the end, it really seemed to that he did indeed have something to prove, otherwise he wouldn't have spend two weeks worth of long replies trying to explain why your techniques are low level and disappointing. I mean, that's a lot of effort to prove a point. So, here's what I think. First of all, my knowledge of your school and everyone on this forum is scant at best. My kungfu experience has been limited to a few years training Longfist with a great practice partner and dear friend. My friend (who'll remain nameless until he gives me the okay to use it on the forum), discovered the Wahnam school purely by hazard on the internet I believe. When he was accepted for his first intensive course with Sifu Wong last year, he told me about it and I thought "you're crazy, dude. That sounds hard!" Off he went. I could barely believe this was the same person when he came home. I saw within him peace, joy, and clarity that I'd never seen in all the years I've known him. Now, I've not even gotten to the kungfu yet! Since he needed to review what he learned in the course, he showed me the basics that he'd learned. Now, I've always been a forms girl. I hated to spar or apply techniques. I found it stressful and difficult to think on my feet, not to mention clumsy and awkward. I was so amazed by how simple and straightforward all the techinques were to apply. I actually began to enjoy sparring and slowly felt (feel) the stress and anticipation slipping away. Sparring and combat sequences with my friend now takes up the majority of our practice time. I felt Kin Tama's comments on the sparring videos were... well... just silly. I saw people practicing their kungfu to spar. I don't think there's alot of that to be had on the internet or anywhere else these days. Speaking from the standpoint of a quite inexperiences martial artist, I'd also say I was extremely impressed by the clips of Sifu Kai, and Sifu Kai and Sifu Emiko together.
Perhaps I might be babbling a bit, but the point I'm trying to make is I feel like I've benefitted more in my kungfu and qigong practice after a few short months of reading Sifu Wong's materials, practicing with my friend, and reading this forum than I did in 4 or so years of longfist practice (don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not a great style). What's more is that outside of the martial aspect, I can almost feel my heart loosening up after being clenched shut for so many years. I read this forum, and (get ready this is gonna get cheesy), y'all just make me feel so good! And so informed, too! For my friend, he has nothing but wonderful things to say about Sifu, and those of you he's met and trained with. As for me, I'm now gearing up to attend my first intensive course. Though I'll admit I'm totally freaked out, I'll also say I'm more excited for this than I've been for anything in nearly a decade. So now I'm done ranting, and this is my complete opposing opinion to that of our dearly departed friend Kin Tama.
Warmest Regards,
Molly

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Glad to hear you're enjoying your kung fu practise. I look forward to seeing the clips of your sparring at your first intensive course in Malaysia as much as I have enjoyed those of our other brothers and sisters.

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Personally I sensed Kin Tama wanted to find out the truth. One thing I credit the MMA community for is that they will switch training to whatever they find works best. When grappling took over, there was a huge movement towards jujitsu. Now that a few kickboxers are winning the MMA tournaments, there is another movement back. If they found golden bridge to be better than weight training, I have no doubt they would try to switch.

The problem is that the MMA community looks at those videos and they don't like what they see. They want to see someone get hurt, choked out, knocked out, or whatever. That's what winning is to them. It is completely at odds with WahNam psychology though, where the emphasis is on training and personal growth, not hurting eachother. The real forte of WahNam as I've discovered is chi kung, not ring fighting.

We want the warrior scholars and the warrior monks. Successful at your job, your family, your hobbies, and your kung-fu. The methods of WahNam assist this tremendously. The methods of MMA, in my experience, hurt. In my old MMA years, the training hurt my body, work, family...

The ill feelings of the MMA community are not reciprocated. What I don't understand is why some aren't willing to try WahNam methods for a few months before posting negativity. They might find reason to switch.

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