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Re: Bender Update !!!

Actually, you went into chat and called me a coward behind my back, and you know it. That, I would suggest, is cowardly behavior.

I guess I might have said something profound like "methinks thou dost protest too much", but why bother?

Everybody here knows you and your style, Steel. You seem determined to turn this into a discussion about you.... wow, what a surprise.

A discussion about me? No. This is a discussion about how you've broken with tenants you've claimed to hold dear- like "balance". It's also not (because you've decided to go that way) about how you're indicting folks as "gutless" because they don't follow your methodology....which, of course, isn't at all balanced so it seems.

Dislike me all you want, man. But it doesn't change the fact that I'm not claiming to be something I'm not.

And if my "style" means that I'll take things head on, then I'll take that as a compliment. Because you certainly don't.

BTW- Calling me out due to a comment you heard I made in chat? Does that mean it's open game to use anything you've ever PM'd me? Or anything that someone has said on the Hall of Fame forum? Do you seriously want me to sink to the depths of using your own PM's against you?

My God.

Last edited by SteelSD; 06-01-2004 at 11:14 PM.

"The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

"The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
--Ted Williams

Re: Bender Update !!!

Originally Posted by SteelSD

A discussion about me? No. This is a discussion about how you've broken with tenants you've claimed to hold dear- like "balance". It's also not (because you've decided to go that way) about how you're indicting folks as "gutless" because they don't follow your methodology....which, of course, isn't at all balanced so it seems.

I don't believe I've ever, in the entire time I've posted here, indicted anyone as "gutless" for not following my methodology, nor did I use the term "balance" anywhere in this thread. Those were your debating techniques to cloud the issue. But since you brought it up, my belief that Casey is back is based on both his numbers, but more importantly what I'm observing, which is the heart of every post I've ever made referencing balance.

BTW- Calling me out due to a comment you heard I made in chat? Does that mean it's open game to use anything you've ever PM'd me? Or anything that someone has said on the Hall of Fame forum? Do you seriously want me to sink to the depths of using your own PM's against you?

My God.

As far as I know, I've only once responded to a PM from you where you offered to educate me on sabermetrics so I could better understand the game. Much of the pm was nice, but I took the tone as incredibly condescending and I actually cracked up when I read it. Please feel free to post both your PM and my response if you'd like, with my blessings.

In fact, I can't think of anything I've ever said to anyone on any thread or any PM or any chat session that I would object to you posting, if you're so inclined.

And congratulations. This thread will no doubt be closed soon, as it's become a sad little pissing match.

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
~ Mark Twain

Re: Bender Update !!!

Re: Bender Update !!!

Originally Posted by RFS62

I don't believe I've ever, in the entire time I've posted here, indicted anyone as "gutless" for not following my methodology, nor did I use the term "balance" anywhere in this thread. Those were your debating techniques to cloud the issue. But since you brought it up, my belief that Casey is back is based on both his numbers, but more importantly what I'm observing, which is the heart of every post I've ever made referencing balance.

Balance?

Not only have you never demonstrated a balance between observation and statistical analysis, your current rant doesn't claim to need it. Using your method, any player who posts Sean Casey numbers for 40-odd games doesn't need any more evaluation- statistical or observation. They're just "that player".

Inconsistent to say the least. What you're, in fact, doing is driving your analysis almost completely using the observation path- not the subjective.

Sean Casey is obvsiously back and anyone who doesn't profess it is right now is "gutless". That's as "unbalanced" as one can get. It's absolutely obvious because you've done this before. You did it when he started out exceptionally hot and you regressed when his OPS was @.750 for the first half of May.

You know what statheads like MWM and myself did? If you want to bring chat into it, here's the conversation:

MWM:"Has anyone noticed that Casey's OPS is .750 for May thusfar?"

SteelSD:"Yeah, but let's just hope that it's a glitch and Casey gets hot again quick."

Now, you can question MWM via PM all you want, but that's that conversation. Not "God, I hope Casey sucks." Not "Casey can't possibly keep it up." But "God, I hope he gets hot again."

Yeah, I'm a hater there, RFS. Go for it.

As far as I know, I've only once responded to a PM from you where you offered to educate me on sabermetrics so I could better understand the game. Much of the pm was nice, but I took the tone as incredibly condescending and I actually cracked up when I read it. Please feel free to post both your PM and my response if you'd like, with my blessings.

Wow. I attempted to help you out, and you laughed. Seriously. You laughed. It's patently obvious that you don't have a handle on the statistical side of "balance" but you "laughed" at my attempt to help you out??

Did you also "laugh" at the other folks I've helped out? Do you laugh right now at the posters on this board who've asked me questions? How many people are you laughing at right now? And you dare to call my "tone" condescending?

I certainly hope that you aren't laughing now, because the posters who've asked me for information and assistence aren't laughing. I think they were actually grateful. Not that my ego is driven from that, but you need to stop hiding behind your inability to produce relevant numbers to back up your positions.

I could claim to play the clarinet. But unless I actually grabbed the instrument and began playing off page music provided for me, I couldn't prove that I could play that instrument. You claim to be able to play it in concert, but can't bring a single thing to back it up.

In fact, I can't think of anything I've ever said to anyone on any thread or any PM or any chat session that I would object to you posting, if you're so inclined.

And congratulations. This thread will no doubt be closed soon, as it's become a sad little pissing match.

Between whom? You and I? No. You degenerated this into a sad pissing match quite a long time ago. The problem is that you refuse to play fair. You refuse to say what you mean and mean what you say. It's not I that's perpetuating this. It's you.

Name names. Be a man and say what you mean. If you're calling out folks, then by all means, CALL THEM OUT.

Otherwise, move along.

"The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

"The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
--Ted Williams

Re: Bender Update !!!

The guy who runs the board asked us to take it private, and you respond with that last post.

I'll gladly take your advice, Steel. I'll move along. You're not worth getting upset over. For all your knowledge, I feel quite sure that the board knows just who and what you are, and I don't even have to say it.

Good luck.

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
~ Mark Twain

Re: Bender Update !!!

Originally Posted by RFS62

The guy who runs the board asked us to take it private, and you respond with that last post.

I'll gladly take your advice, Steel. I'll move along. You're not worth getting upset over. For all your knowledge, I feel quite sure that the board knows just who and what you are, and I don't even have to say it.

Good luck.

Yep. And after Boss' post, not a single PM from you- although we both know my response wasn't written after Boss posted that. Not lying in the true sense, but you're not being exceptionally honest, are you?

You want to take this to PM? I'm waiting. And I assume that I'll continue to wait considering you history of evasion.

As for what the board knows? Well, they know I'm a guy who'll take someone on head first. You? Well, you'll take someone on. I guess. But it really depends on how fast you run after someone's determined exactly how inexact and untruthful you'll be.

Run RFS! Run!!

"The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

"The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
--Ted Williams

Re: Bender Update !!!

But it really depends on how fast you run after someone's determined exactly how inexact and untruthful you'll be.

I think anyone who has read this board for a prolonged period knows that RFS is the antithesis of those characteristics.

I agree with his premise that the Casey bashing got out of hand. It was the same with the Griffey bashing. Sure, maybe that money could be spent elsewhere. But I know there were quite a few threads I cringed at with both players involved.

I know it's human nature to plug "your" players, but I honestly wish we could stop some of this in your face business. It's a safe bet to say that Casey isn't going to hit .390+ the rest of the season, so I'm sure there's going to be a time when he has a crappy month, maybe at the same time Bender has a good month. Someone in another thread mentioned that they wanted to talk to Gallagher now that Jr is doing better. Frankly, to me that is simply stooping to Gallagher's level. I would much rather quietly be happy with Casey's and Jr's successes than rub it in the face of anyone who wasn't wishing for that very thing.

I also agree with what MWM said: I think there was a fair portion of people who actively rooted for Casey, but felt that his money could be spent in a better way. I think there were a number who were disappointed with his slugging percentage and various other statistical barometers, but wished that he could pick it up.

So I think everyone was right in a sense in this thread: there were a number of attacks on Sean that were uncalled for, and there were also a number of people who didn't attack him personally but were disappointed with his performance. I wish, however, that we could stop this "I'm right, haha" thing we are doing, from both sides.

Re: Bender Update !!!

Did you really think that the Reds were going to sit Casey and bring up Broussard at the first slump Casey went through? This isn't fantasy baseball where moves are made in a vacuum.

Uhhm, my point was that the Broussard supporters called for Ben to take over the role of 1B and moving Casey at the point he became too expensive. If this path had been taken, Casey would never have been offered the long term deal. He would have been dealt (which would have been doable without the LTC). The money saved would be plenty to buy the much needed starting pitcher.

Of course that did not happen and the Reds were stuck paying Casey richly for below average 1B production. At that point, the hope was the Reds find a trading partner but, as we know, they could not find any takers when he was shopped. None of us ever said BB should start OVER Casey, but rather REPLACE Casey on the roster given he could be moved. Of course we liked him as a left-handed bat off the bench in the least.

Re: Bender Update !!!

I am sure I would be lumped into the Casey bashing bin ...

If the archives would go back far enough you would see that I classified trading Casey as a risky proposition, but one that I supported. I felt that between Dunn/Broussard one of them could man 1B and we could find another productive outfielder (Guillen?) at a lower net cost. This would allow the Reds to upgrade their pitching.

Is Casey "earning" his salary this year so far? Sure, but I am not convinced he is somebody that I would want manning 1B given his salary and the Reds MLB payroll. I'd take my chances putting more money into pitching. Where would we be without Casey this year? Maybe we would be even better off with Dunn at 1B, another OF (
Guillen? other?) and a few extra million in the pitching staff. Who knows?

That said, I have rooted for Casey from day one, and will continue to do so.

Re: Bender Update !!!

Originally Posted by letsgojunior

I wish, however, that we could stop this "I'm right, haha" thing we are doing, from both sides.

Exactly, lgj. That's the only point I was trying to make. I never imagined it would turn in to this, with two of my favorite 'Zoners going at each other. Please stop guys, you are both better than this.

Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

Re: Bender Update !!!

At the risk of sounding incredibly ridiculous, I just want to say: It is okay to like and support a player for any reason, or for no particular reason at all. We all know that, right?

So then, it can sting when a player one favors is personally attacked, be it on here or in the media or during conversation with friends. And maybe we can just keep that in mind in the future? Friendly jabs most certainly have their place -- wouldn't be much fun without them! But it seems to me, after reading this thread, that it wouldn't hurt to try to minimize the unfriendly jabs.

My example: One of the players I have an unreasonable attachment to -- Todd Walker -- has been bashed on here a number of times, both during his time with the Reds and in the time soon following his trade. I know he has/had other supporters on here besides me, but it was rough going (for me) for a while to constantly read reasons why he's not that good. Like I shouldn't like him just because he's "average at best," or whatever was said about him.

LGJ, I think your post was right on. You bring up a good point with the Griffey bashing threads -- some of those were excruciating. And I'm not a fan of the "I'm right, haha" school either. (Though, in all honesty, I didn't see think that was the original intent of this thread ... but I can understand if others read it that way.)

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