Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 22:05:52 GMT -6

Rapture Question:Restoration can support multiple raptures models. So one is free to hold to their variant and still consider Restoration.

When considering eschatology, the key to seeing the continuity between ET and Restoration is in defining the moment we are considered to be “in Christ.”

Though all are HeavenSaved by His Passover work - only those who have the seed of the Father are in Christ. This seed is sewn when we believe. In that way, it is similar to ET. So at that point, you can consider an ET Christian as the same as an Restoration Christian. Both believe and are beginning their pentecost experience. Some just don’t know what to call it!

There is a reason there are so many passages talking about believing. Restoration does not remove that requirement. It just removes the timing of when it is necessary. Eventually, everyone is going to believe, blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believe.

Restoration supports all the typical traditional models of rapture timing and inclusivity. However, Restoration does not consider Rapture and HeavenSaved salvation to be connected. I’ll hold off expressing my personal preference here so as not to make that the focus of this thread. But since Restoration splits the idea of the rapture from the idea of being HeavenSaved, it allows for more freedom to see the viability in the various rapture models without making HeavenSaved salvation works based.

In ET, if we envision a partial rapture, it does great injury to salvation by grace. At the same time, we have a similar issue when it comes to taking the Mark. That is a work, but seems to cost HeavenSaved salvation.

In Restoration, we do not have those conflicts because HeavenSaved is never in question. It is an act of pure grace! It is not coincidence that the word starts with REST. Do we believe in the pure grace of God? Or do we believe in assisted grace? It is just like us to think we can add to what God has done!

So Restoration offers more freedom to seek God on the truth of the Rapture scenarios.

Timing Question:“Is the complete restoration in the next age?” - Yes and No. The complete restoration will not be complete until the Age of Ages. The age of Jubilee. It is unclear how many ages are in between the next age (the age of Tabernacles) and the Age of Ages. My theory - which has very little biblical proof, and is only based on the pattern of the Jubilee (7 weeks of 7 years) is that it will be after 7 weeks of 7000 years. As the 50,000 year is starting, on the Day of Atonement. This would be the Jubilee of Jubilees and I can't imagine the trumpets that will be sounding that day!

The current age is about to end and we are about to enter the last day of the first week, so, it will be awhile. But the soon coming age of Tabernacles will hold a great many joys for those who are in Christ!

So when some of us were waiting this year on the Day of Atonement, we, once again, weren’t thinking of the whole picture. We were primarily focused on us. The plan of God is much bigger than us. The Hebrews thought they were special, then the Christian thought they were special, …. the next movement of God is even bigger yet!

Please let me know if this answers your questions.

A side note: I am simplifying the phrase “His Passover work” because I am trying to avoid over complicating it on the first pass. But it should be noted that “His Passover work” includes multiple phases - I will mention them here without explanation. Cross, Resurrection, Pentecost(not Acts 2), Second Coming, Jubilee. These works combine into two primary “works of Christ”, and are pictured by the Spring and Fall feasts. Pentecost sits between these as a long term event. Some of you may begin to read between the lines.

Post by MikeTaft on Nov 15, 2017 5:35:42 GMT -6

Gotcha. I've always come to the conclusion that the rapture is grace based, but is inclusive to only those who believe in this age. For we are in Christ, however those who do not believe are not in Christ and will face great tribulation at the end of THIS age. Still have some other passages in Revelation in regards to the lake of fire and those who received the mark of the beast, but I'm sure you'll get around to that. Ok. Shutting up. Keep it common SK.

"Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4:3-6

Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 8:50:42 GMT -6

MikeTaft - please don't feel you are a burden when you ask questions - this topic is so huge, and as I said at the beginning, there are so many directions we could take when presenting it. What works for one person will not work as well for another. I don't mind the questions at all - it helps me gauge the effectiveness of what I am sharing and the direction in which to move.

We will have a whole section on the lake of fire and it sounds like we should cover the mark of the beast as well.

Post by mike on Nov 15, 2017 9:09:31 GMT -6

SK, the audience here is likely much more broad than the me & Mike a the few other commenting. Coming from all areas of the spectrum including parts of the world, cultures and time in Him

As a side note which really stuck out to me as I watched this "documentary" last night. Not sure who likes football (anymore) but one of the shows I find extremely interesting on NFL Network is called "A Football Life". I record all of them and one I was looking forward to was on recently, Larry Fitzgerald. If any of you know about him then the show would further that information on him, if you dont I recommend it. In light of the Hitler/Todd example I may compare him to Todd. Larry is the nicest guy. Not sure if he's a believer or not as the show doesnt identify him that way (but the previous week did with Jim Kelly). So while watching I immediately thought of this thread/conversation "How could such a decent man with all priorities in order possibly end up in eternal torment?

Post by mike on Nov 15, 2017 10:18:02 GMT -6

And a question from a Beloved lurking friend

Matthew 7:13-14"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Luke 13 22-30 "He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. And someone said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.' Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.' But he will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!' In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."

Post by kjs on Nov 15, 2017 10:18:29 GMT -6

Hitler was chosen -- simply because one need not Prove he was evil.If he was saved(or too clarified, if he was ET saved) twenty seconds before death -- than -- Yes He would be watching the world from the balcony box -- with all the other ET Saved people.)Just like Todd (who saved all those children and animals .... is doing a slow roast..... for failing to believe....

Is there anyone who truly deserves heaven?

Of course not,that verdict arrived long a go....

======

Now the way I was raised, the Sanctification process is the training ground in today's life, where the Believer is becoming more Christ-Like.... this training ground will never be fully completed this side of heaven; however the Glorification process is what enables believers to enter into the presences of God with the incorruptible flesh.

Based off what you have stated so far; there is a Sanctification process which happens after death; where all people start the process of becoming more Christ-Like. It that be true, then it would that the Sanctification process would need to be completed before the Glorification process could begin. This is starting to bring on a feeling of a need for a Purgatory (as some Catholics believe) -- whereby -- those being fully restored have some type of "clean-up" before they will be fully restored.

Post by mike on Nov 15, 2017 10:23:29 GMT -6

Hitler was chosen -- simply because one need not Prove he was evil.If he was saved(or too clarified, if he was ET saved) twenty seconds before death -- than -- Yes He would be watching the world from the balcony box -- with all the other ET Saved people.)Just like Todd (who saved all those children and animals .... is doing a slow roast..... for failing to believe....

Is there anyone who truly deserves heaven?

Of course not,that verdict arrived long a go....

======

Now the way I was raised, the Sanctification process is the training ground in today's life, where the Believer is becoming more Christ-Like.... this training ground will never be fully completed this side of heaven; however the Glorification process is what enables believers to enter into the presences of God with the incorruptible flesh.

Based off what you have stated so far; there is a Sanctification process which happens after death; where all people start the process of becoming more Christ-Like. It that be true, then it would that the Sanctification process would need to be completed before the Glorification process could begin. This is starting to bring on a feeling of a need for a Purgatory (as some Catholics believe) -- whereby -- those being fully restored have some type of "clean-up" before they will be fully restored.

Have had similar thoughts KJS since early in the thread but holding my tongue, allowing SK to continue his progression. (not implying you should wait to question, just wanted you to know you're not the only one thinking some of these things).

At this point this line of thought certainly challenges what most scholars have taught for a very long time. Did the early church fathers have a differing take?

Hab 3:2 Lord, I have heard of your fame; I stand in awe of your deeds, Lord. Repeat them in our day, in our time make them known; in wrath remember mercy.

Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 11:07:50 GMT -6

SK, the audience here is likely much more broad than the me & Mike a the few other commenting. Coming from all areas of the spectrum including parts of the world, cultures and time in Him

As a side note which really stuck out to me as I watched this "documentary" last night. Not sure who likes football (anymore) but one of the shows I find extremely interesting on NFL Network is called "A Football Life". I record all of them and one I was looking forward to was on recently, Larry Fitzgerald. If any of you know about him then the show would further that information on him, if you dont I recommend it. In light of the Hitler/Todd example I may compare him to Todd. Larry is the nicest guy. Not sure if he's a believer or not as the show doesnt identify him that way (but the previous week did with Jim Kelly). So while watching I immediately thought of this thread/conversation "How could such a decent man with all priorities in order possibly end up in eternal torment?

I appreciate your sentiments here mike - but I want to caution us -

It is easy to fall for Restoration because that is what we would like to have happen. But this would be the wrong reason to believe in the restoration of all. We will find that we can believe in the restoration of all because the scripture teaches it! It is who God is.

Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 11:22:27 GMT -6

Hitler was chosen -- simply because one need not Prove he was evil.If he was saved(or too clarified, if he was ET saved) twenty seconds before death -- than -- Yes He would be watching the world from the balcony box -- with all the other ET Saved people.)Just like Todd (who saved all those children and animals .... is doing a slow roast..... for failing to believe....

Is there anyone who truly deserves heaven?

Of course not,that verdict arrived long a go....

======

Now the way I was raised, the Sanctification process is the training ground in today's life, where the Believer is becoming more Christ-Like.... this training ground will never be fully completed this side of heaven; however the Glorification process is what enables believers to enter into the presences of God with the incorruptible flesh.

Based off what you have stated so far; there is a Sanctification process which happens after death; where all people start the process of becoming more Christ-Like. It that be true, then it would that the Sanctification process would need to be completed before the Glorification process could begin. This is starting to bring on a feeling of a need for a Purgatory (as some Catholics believe) -- whereby -- those being fully restored have some type of "clean-up" before they will be fully restored.

I understand the Hitler choice, kjs, I was just joking with you because that is a long standing joke within debate circles.

- - -

What you were taught as the sanctification process - what I am calling and more specifically defining (see the Hearing God thread) as the Pentecost experience are the same thing. It is an element of salvation according to scripture. Just not the part that gets us HeavenSaved. This process starts the moment the seed is planted within us - the moment we believe. For some, that moment will be after they die. There is nothing in scripture that says we cannot believe after death. As a matter of fact, the exact opposite is declared.

Restoration does not teach in a purgatory. But it does teach in a process of bringing everyone into oneness with God that started at the beginning and ends at the end. Any similarity to a catholic purgatory is coincidental, or because, perhaps, that understanding of something similar is taught in scripture and therefore has been thought of by more than one person over the years.

Unfortunately, I have to give short answers for now - but will respond in more detail later. I got that whole "working for a living" thing interfering....

Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 11:30:37 GMT -6

At this point this line of thought certainly challenges what most scholars have taught for a very long time. Did the early church fathers have a differing take?

mike, the early church Fathers taught a variety of positions. ET, Annihilation, and some form of Reconciliation have all been taught from the earliest days of the church and threads of each of these teachings continue today. ET has become the dominant - mainly thanks to the Catholic church and the work of Augustine in The City of God.

So, if we look for support in other teachings, we can find which ever version we want. Just like almost any part of the Christian faith. Soon we will be looking at the scriptures that not only support restoration - but demand it.

Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 14:54:27 GMT -6

And I know you are going to get to it. So far if we were to stop here it sounds like everyone gets to "heaven" at one point or another (as i think kjs suggests too) so what's the difference

EDIT - while typing you posted like 2-3 responses. Go do some of that work stuff

I may need clarification on this question mike. Are you asking what the difference is between Restoration and what kjs suggests? If so, are you basing what kjs suggests on his post in the other thread? Or does kjs teach something I am not aware of. Perhaps some clarity will help me answer you in an appropriate way.

Post by mike on Nov 15, 2017 15:30:07 GMT -6

Sorry...sometimes when I read stuff it makes sense as follow my thought progression, so when I write it I think everyone is following

I'm referring to KJ's earlier post about purgatory. Catholicism teaches this basic premise that if you werent good enough you can eventually make it. For what's been written in the thread so far Reconciliation sounds similar. My comment started with "i know you're going to get to it..." meaning i'm certain you'll differentiate between the two, whether by compare/contrast or just evident as you explain.

Hope that makes a little more sense. Thats my bump in the road for now. Interested to hear more when you get time to put it out there.

Hab 3:2 Lord, I have heard of your fame; I stand in awe of your deeds, Lord. Repeat them in our day, in our time make them known; in wrath remember mercy.

Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 16:04:22 GMT -6

One of the many bricks that we have put into our doctrinal walls over the years is this:

There are many passages that talk about a future division of people, or a future judgement, or a future disposition of individuals.

We tend to lump these all into one division, one judgment, one disposition. Just like we do with the word salvation. What we don’t do, is really look at the criteria or apparent contradictions created when we do this. We tend to just dismiss these confusing parts as if they don’t really exist. This causes us to end up with a hell that kills the soul, burns everything, makes people thirsty, makes them weep and gnash their teeth, causes them to be in darkness, makes their smoke go up forever (even if they area already dead), etc. But not all these passages are talking about "hell" at all.

So can the verses brought up by beloved be used to justify ET? Remembering that the we defined ET at the beginning of the thread, I will bring it back here to refresh our memory:

Definition of terms: Endless Torment (ET)I will use the term “endless torment” (ET) to represent the most typical Christian teaching. For the purpose of this thread, I see endless torment defined with these main points:

Who: Those that were human upon the earthWhy: Lack of faith in Jesus at time of physical deathWhere: Predominantly Hell, Also called the Lake of Fire, and other namesWhat: Torment by fireWhen: Predominantly after the white throne judgementHow long: Without end

There are some variations on the theme:* some believe unbelievers enter hell immediately upon death* some believe the fire actually destroys the unbeliever and they cease to exists (annihilation)* some believe the torment is mere separation from God* some believe that children are excepted from the policy before a certain age

The most standard teaching of Christianity on the subject of endless torment is that any person who dies as an unbeliever will spend eternity in fiery torment.

So now, let’s check the Matt 7 passage. Does it teach ET?

Matthew 7:13-14"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

We will try to place the informative parts of the passage to fill out our conditions that would meet ET:

Who: many peopleWhy: they entered the wrong gate (specifically, the gate of the easy way)Where: NAWhat: way that leads to destruction (this is a form of Apollymi - your hammer)When: NAHow long: NA

So this passage does not teach ET. It does teach that many will find destruction and few will find life. But it does specify what that destruction is and it does not specify when it will be or how long it will last. It also does not mention anything about a time limit for entering into the correct gate. It also seems to imply that the entering of the gate is based on how easy the path is, which is a works based decision - not a faith based one.

We have lumped this passage it into our hunk of stuff we think teaches ET. But we have just shown, that it does not support ET. When we start to do this, passage by passage throughout scripture, we will begin to find, ET simply isn’t taught in the bible. That should be a shocking statement - It is one thing say that we can choose between two ideas that are both taught in scripture. If ET is not even in scripture - then why do we continue to teach it? More not that cynical topic later.

Now, lets look at the other passage beloved mentioned:

Luke 13 22-30 "He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. And someone said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.' Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.' But he will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!' In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."

Once again, we will try to place the informative parts of the passage to fill out our conditions that would meet ET:

Who: people - even some who seek and knockWhy: they worked iniquityWhere: Outside the Kingdom of GodWhat: weeping and gnashing of teethWhen: when they see the fathers reclining in the kingdomHow long: NA - but with some indication it is not endless (due to the first / last concept)

So once again, this passage does not teach ET. It does teach that people may find themselves too late to seek and knock and have the door be opened. But what door? The door to the kingdom of God. Is this permanent? It does not seem so, because it discusses the first being last and last being first. This may just be a timing issue. So some may not enter when they want, but perhaps they do so "last". Also, once again, what is the condition for them not making it? Was it because they did not believe? No, it was because they worked iniquity. This would be works based salvation if this was talking about HeavenSaved salvation. Instead of seeing this as supporting ET - We should actually be quite grateful that it is not! Else, we may all be condemned to that fate.

Also, to add one more similar verse:

Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

So now, we would need to exclude Rich people from being saved as well. Right?

Accept for this:

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Then we see this:

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

and compare that to the verses given above

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

How can both of these sets of verses be true? Either knocking and seeking works, or it doesn't. Is the bible wrong? Here we go again! NO. But it does contradict if our understanding is not in line with God's plan. Timing is everything. A story that talks about one moment in the plan of God does not need to give the end result. It is only talking about one moment.

I believe this applies again:

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Now, if we have spiritual and intellectual integrity - we cannot use these verses to prove ET. They also do not prove Restoration. But then, we are not making that claim. We are making the claim that these verses do NOT teach ET. Nor, by the way do they teach Annihilation. Dead people don’t weepand gnash teeth. Dead people can't see the prophets reclining in the kingdom.

I will say, that this division does support some concepts with Restoration and I will get into those far down the line. And I should admit that the first “path of destruction” does not outright deny annihilation. But then it would be annihilation based on bad choices and taking the easy way out. Faith based Christianity does not teach that.

Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 16:18:51 GMT -6

Sorry...sometimes when I read stuff it makes sense as follow my thought progression, so when I write it I think everyone is following

I'm referring to KJ's earlier post about purgatory. Catholicism teaches this basic premise that if you werent good enough you can eventually make it. For what's been written in the thread so far Reconciliation sounds similar. My comment started with "i know you're going to get to it..." meaning i'm certain you'll differentiate between the two, whether by compare/contrast or just evident as you explain.

Hope that makes a little more sense. Thats my bump in the road for now. Interested to hear more when you get time to put it out there.

Ok. I get what you are saying now. I have never studied catholic purgatory. So I can't say what the differences would be. Just like everything, I would not dismiss or accept something purely on the bases that it has been taught or rejected by some other religion.

However, "Good enough" never enters into the formula for HeavenSaved. So if purgatory was a place people waited until they were good enough to get to heaven, then that would be anathema(detestable). Only Christ is good enough - only Christ will ever be good enough.

In restoration, the HeavenSaved is effective even for those who are still experiencing Pentecost. They would have already ceased to exist if they weren't HeavenSaved. The point of Pentecost is not to make them good enough, but to bring them into agreement with God. I suppose one could say that is splitting hairs. But I think the difference is more significant than it may sound on the surface.

Remember - we are not just being called to get to heaven. We need to understand the ways of God and say amen. We need to act, out of the depth of our heart, the way Christ would. We are going to judge angels. We cannot do that just because we say - I believe. We need to know the law of God - his Character - so that we can properly judge a matter. Pentecost brings us into this oneness with Him.

Another thing to consider - simply waiting around, or being burned, or weeping, etc. does not accomplish justice. Nor does it bring us into agreement. That is why the American prison system is unjust. It does nothing to compensate the victim, while at the same time, does not restore the criminal. Some things, in this life, cannot be made fully just. And some criminals in this life will never repent. But in the next age(s) - they can and will, by the power and wisdom of God.

Oh - and by the way Pentecost involves fire. And guess what the Greek word for fire is..... PUR.....And guess what English word we get from this? Pure! I will explain this more as we get to it. But does that help for now?

Last Edit:Nov 15, 2017 23:11:39 GMT -6 by Deleted

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