Serato Software Feature Suggestions

MIDI!!

MIDI!!

I would like to see midi integration. SSL could at minimum send a timecode to sync with other hardware through the computer's soundcard or other midi interface. Also, the ability to have the software respond to midi control messages would be a nice touch.

For example, Reason has the ability to "learn" midi control messages and use them to control just about any component on the screen. Granted, in the current version, there aren't that many things to control, but you could, say, map knobs on a hardware midi controller to adjust the gain. And if there are any plans to add effects or other plug-ins, you're looking at lots of parameters to adjust. doing anything with the mouse when trying to mix is horrible... tweaking a knob or slider is the easier way.

In general I'd like to see features that allow for versatility and creativity more along the lines of producing live beats with samples and midi and throwing a scratch in there. does that make any sense? am I asking for too much too soon?

Hmmm regarding the midi controller stuff, wouldn't the best place to change the gain "live" be on your mixer? I'm sure that if plug-ins are developed that they would definitely benefit from MIDI control though...

I don't know that SSL would be the best product to head into ableton live etc territory though... anyone else care to weigh in?

That could be neat when SSL has effects, as the program is now it might be a waste of controller knobs... although, the mixer I am getting probably won't have enough nobs to work Ableton the way I want to, so I may just use my own MIDI box which will free up the controllers on the 92. I should talk to you guys about the MIDI box I plan on building.

You wouldnt be going into Ableton Live territory since SSL is totally a different type of program. I think making ssl run as a Plug in or Rewire application to a sequencer such as Ableton live, Cubase, protools or Logic would hold greater potential to many Dj/musicians such as myself. There would be less need to add a multitrack to SSL, when there are far better programs out there that support plugins and rewire.

only thing i'd add, is that throwing the kitchen sink in might be compromising the apps core competency. i don't want to see bloatware, as we have to remember that most of us are using laptops, not desktops, and their horsepower is limited. i'd just like SSL to be as fast and optimized as possible. just my .02 :)

i agree... keep it as lean and mean as possible. if you're more interested in making music with synths or using multiple loops and timecoding every up, you have better options out there for controlling your sound live. i'm speaking from a purist standpoint here, but it seems like people are missing the real point of this program. it not a groove looper; it's not a cd deck. at its core, ssl is a program to emulate vinyl turntables -- playing back prerecorded music.

i see the point in all this. The Dj mixer itself should be made with midi and trs record out on each channel. Keep ssl designed for what it was made to do. Rane could focus develop on a mixer that could work for such applications.

I'd love to see midi support in the sense of accessing folders, scrolling through songs lists, cueing and assgining songs to A/B decks. I don't have SSL yet, but what makes me nervous about using SSL in front of a crowd is mistakenly pressing a wrong key on my laptop and ending up somewhere on the GUI where I wasn't planning on going in the first place. So if I could take any one of my MIDI controllers which I already own and assign navigational commands to them, that would fantastic.

One of the main reasons I would like to see this implemented is so I can play 3"decks" when there is only 2. I play techno, so playing 3 decks is pretty important to my style, though most clubs only have 2. You could leave 1 deck set up for just vinyl, set one deck to Control ssl and on the second output on SSL 1, connect it to line 3 on your mixer. Then in the software when you have your MP3 beat matched to your vinyl, invert the deck and mix in a second mp3 (I know you can already do this, but here's the problem), if your tracks start to stray, you would need to keep the one MP3 and one vinyl locked to the Mp3 on the inverted deck. Which may be difficult especially considering the MP3 on the inverted deck may be the track thats straying off, therefore to correct this, you could throw the inverted deck into internal mode and controll the pitch via a midi controller, viola 3 decks

I appolagize if the scenario above is slightly convoluted, but I am sure you will get my point. This update would be a HUGE plus to me, and it would be a software update (relatively easy to implement).

Of course you would need a midi controller...fare enough I guess, I have only had this for about 3 days, haven't really gotten into the keyboard shortcuts, can you set 1 for pitch speed? if so what type of resolution would it have? I personally would prefer to use my midi controller as i.e. the UC-33 has vertical sliders which would feel simillar to my tech 12's.

I know for a fact that I wouldnt want to use my mouse as the + and - 8 control in internal mode are very close together and I don't feel you would have enough accuracy. WIth my setup in my studio the "short cut key" option is doable, but at the same time my laptop sits behind me, which is fine for turning around to load a new track, but if I have 3 decks going and I am fighting to keep the mix together, I certainly don't want to turn my back to my decks, therefore a midi controller that was sitting beside my mixer would be the best option for me. (i know someone is going to suggest to put the laptop beside the mixer, but there would be no room), not to mention in my experience with doing live pa's in clubs, there is rerely enough room to situate a laptop directly beside the decks..

you can beat mix using internal mode with SSL 1.4. this update allows you to use keyboard shorcuts to pitch bend, pitch nudge, play, stop, fast forwar, rewind, skipt to next track, skip to previous track...

i think at the very least having SSL respond to a MIDI controller in that it replaces the keyboard keystrokes. Some actions which req 2 keys could be replaced with 1 button press. so instead of having to look at the keyboard and make sure your press the right keys, having a MIDI controller you can just sort of reach over and have big buttons to press, and you wont need to look over. a few posts above describe similar situations.

of course if plug-ins fx become a reality, a MIDI controller would be good to control this.

i dont use internal mode, so i would need a MIDI controller to control the pitch etc. but i can understand why this would be handy for people who do use internal mode a lot.

the downside is that you have another piece of gear to bring around, more wires and another factor to consider when looking at stability etc. Although with SSL's track record, i doubt stability WILL be an issue!

Are there any plans in the pipeline for a Serato dedicated controller? something like a twin CD control headunit win a USB connection to your laptop? I know it kind of defeats the purpose of the control vinyl/CD thing but it would cut out so many potential problems with cueing etc for us CD DJs. It would also mean less unplugging and recabling at every gig.

A dedicated controller is definitely the way forward. Something along the lines of the DAC3 would be superb. Even is there was a patch or script to make Serato compatible with external USB controllers at the moment. Just until Serato develop something of their own (Which I'm hoping will be in the not too distant future). At the end of the day, all the controller would be doing is mapping the keyboard in internal mode so it shouldn't be too dificult to put together.

One of the main reasons I would like to see this implemented is so I can play 3"decks" when there is only 2. I play techno, so playing 3 decks is pretty important to my style, though most clubs only have 2.

Think a virtual 3rd deck is what you need. Get in here and let them know you support the suggestion. scratchlive.net

I think midi implementation is essential for the future of SSL, not because of what SSL can do now, but because of what it will be able to do soon. I'm not even saying Rane has to put out a new piece of hardware....supporting a midi I/O interface such as those from m-audio would be good enough for me and keep those who don't need/want midi from paying for the hardware. I previously owned FS2. I bought it over SSL as I was drawn to the robust feature set and midi implementation available when using the interface with Traktor DJ Studio 2.6. Too bad NI couldn't even get the damn thing's basic features working correctly....thus why I am a faithful and very satisfied SSL user.

Here's why I desperatly want some midi implementation in SSL:

Midi Implementation Reason 1: FX
In FS2, the effects were awesome and saved me from having to buy an expensive aftermarket option like the pioneer efx1000, but what really made them great is the ability to control their parameters via my midi controller for a hands on feel. I see effects in SSL coming in a new version very soon, but it won't be a super powerful tool until the DJ has a way to manipulate/trigger them via midi.

Midi Implementation Reason 2: Pitch n' Time
Imagine when pitch n' time finally gets implemented...you could use a midi fader controller to adjust the key of the music independently from the tempo allowing the musically inclined to match not only tempo, but key (mixing around the circle of fifths) making for even better sounding mixes. See www.jeffvyduna.com

Midi Implementation Reason 3: Midi Clock
Many SSL users incorporate hardware groove products (drum machines, synths) or Ableton Live into their live shows or production efforts. Keeping all these products in sync with live music requires a midi clock signal such as the one generated by Allen & Heath Xone3D Mixers (www.xone.co.uk)
or Red Sound Beat Extractors (www.redsound.com).

Those are the basic reasons why I see midi implementation to be beneficial. Basically, I would just like every function that is currently in SSL or will be to be midi mapable by any midi computer interface and for serato to program in a BPM meter/beat detector to generate midi clock signals for syncing to other devices.

I see effects in SSL coming in a new version very soon, but it won't be a super powerful tool until the DJ has a way to manipulate/trigger them via midi.

True true. Fiddling around with a mouse or trackpad is very ugly and not handy at all.

The future of these products is nearing. The Allen & heath xone 92 and 3d. also the ecler nuo 4 all have midi control. i currently own ssl, ableton live, and the ecler nuo 4. if there was midi in and out on the serato"amp" it would sync the two computers without relying
on the tapped clock from the above mixers. then midi data from these mixers could then control on screen parameters in ableton(or serato,providing the update software as well), provide sync, and analog control of tables or audio from ableton computer. no need to touch the computer(s). this feature would definitly take my performance to the next level as well as many others.

Here's the idea: 99% of music is composed in 4/4 time which means that there are 4 beats in a measure and a quarter note is worth one count. Midi clock sends a signal that transmits 24 "ticks" for every quarter note (one beat). When a device (such as a drum machine) recieves that midi clock signal, it counts the rate at which these "ticks" happen and can then synchronise the speed at which it plays its drum loops to the midi clock signal.

Now, the idea we're trying to convey here is that serato would have a built in feature that could sense the beats in the 4/4 music you're playing, calculate the bpm, and then generate a dynamic midi clock signal (via midi interface) that would change tempo along with the varying speeds of your serato program material. This midi clock signal can then be used to synchronize the tempo of the SSL music with ableton live or almost any midi hardware device. Once you syncronize the downbeats (beat 1) to keep your measures / phrases in line, you'll never have to worry about keeping all your different music tools playing nicely together.

Some will say that true DJing is based on the ability to beatmatch...which is true for pre-recorded music, but when you want to play pre-recorded music in combo with bpm controlled FX, synths, loopers, drum machines, or any music computer program, the only beat matching going on involves tapping a BPM button that takes no skill, is inaccurate at setting the tempo over a period of time, and takes away from time you could be spending creativly shaping your mix.

If you ever want to know what the future things like this, you need to keep up with the the stuff artists like BT & Richie Hawtin are doing. Those two more than any other producers/DJs always have tomorrow's technology today. I think it would be very beneficial if Serato & Rane made an effort to partner with one of them (like allen & heath or NI has already done), because they could offer the best insight as to the future needs of our trade and incorporate the best features into future versions of SSL.

Now, the idea we're trying to convey here is that serato would have a built in feature that could sense the beats in the 4/4 music you're playing, calculate the bpm, and then generate a dynamic midi clock signal (via midi interface) that would change tempo along with the varying speeds of your serato program material

Yeah... thats what I feared. The problem here is, with SSL you dont have a strict timeline. The song is not played sequentially from beginning to the end. You would need to put a beat grid layer on top of all tracks to really give some kind of midi timecode. What would happen if you reverse a track? What if you lift the needle? What if you slow down the record?
You rely heavily on a perfect beatgrid, lets assume the grid is off the beat - your sync'ed midi instruments will be off as well. A perfect beatgrid relys on absolute constant BPMs. What happens with those tracks you have recorded from vinyl where wow+flutter have been added during pressing the lathe and then again when playing the record when you recorded it?

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Once again, sorry that I really suck at making short posts.

Dont bother. I enjoy your posts, I prefer long posts like this which bring it on point rather then short 1 line posts where you gotta post 20 followups just to understand the point.

Great point nik39. I currently use a Redsound Microsync Beat Extractor www.hollywooddj.com
for this purpose and if I had my choice, serato would model this feature after this device (or the xone stuff which works the same).

The beat extractor has a bpm engine that is really good at figuring out the down beat (or you can specify the down beat) and will actually transmit the down beat to the slave midi device via (what I think is called) a midi start command, alerting the device that the next midi clock signal it receives will be a downbeat. Now when I adjust the tempo of my music running throught the device, it will detect that and automatically speed up the midi clock signal and resync the downbeats (I believe every measure).

Now, say I start to scratch the record or do a reverse on my cd players, the thing is smart enough to realize that the incoming signal just got messed up and enters an internal mode. In internal mode, you can actually "nudge" or "hold" the midi clock signal just as if you were tweaking a turntable....very cool feature (see pics on website). Once I stop scratching or doing my reverse play, the thing is actually very good about picking up on the downbeat again....mostly probably because my scratching holds/releases or my use of a reverse feature is generally rythmically on tempo i.e. when I release the record again, beat 1 of the measure lines up with where the downbeat of the beat extractor was at before I started the scratch.

I think you're right on track with that virtual "beat grid" metaphor. Serato would just need to program in a beat detector which would detect sharp spikes in the 30-80 Hz range (centered on 50 Hz), count them to determine bpm, and then apply a bit of smartness into the algorithem so that when the signal gets irregular (scratching, reverse play, or even during a beatless trance anthem break), it will still keep that grid running and send out a consistant midi clock signal. Even if you change the pitch of the record during a beatless trance anthem break, SSL could do the math and calculate how the pitch change you made effects the virtual beat grid's speed and when the trance anthem break is over, automatically resync up beat 1 and compensate in the midi clock signal for any offset.

The only problem with all of this is indeed downbeat detection within the program; however, no computer will probably be able to do this effectivly for years to come because they lack the musical intuition of a human - its like trying to explain to a new DJ how to tell when a phrase is going to repeat or a melodic build up will end: you can't explain it, you just know.

So to solve this problem, serato can program in a few simple "truths" about music and downbeats into their beat detection algorithem to establish down beat reference points.

First: the first beat of a song is most likely a downbeat. Likewise, the first beat after a long break in music is most likely a downbeat - use that as a reference.

Second: any skilled DJ will set their cues at a logical point which is 99% of the time on a downbeat - use that as a reference.

Third: if all else fails and my other two suggestions are too unreliable, just put in a button that allows the user to specify the downbeat...easy right?

The thing is that midi is no big mystery and in the big picture of control signals, midi is really quite simple. Using a separate usb-midi interface box, the implementation could be quite easy - especially if you just wanted to make it so that you could map the functions in SSL to midi control channels. I don't mean to step on toes and please don't flame me for this, but I'm going to venture a guess that the slow implementation of midi here is because Rane doesn't really incorporate it into a lot of stuff they make (I counted 2 total products that use it, none related to DJs) and may not be experienced it its use. Also, the amount of moderator posts / technical detail of moderator posts in this thread does not seem to be as high as other threads in this forum. Once again, don't flame me for that...I could be wrong and I don't mean to offend.

SSL right now has accomplished what stanton meant to do with Finalscratch 1.5 (linux for average DJs?..please). Obviously that program sucked. Despite traktor being a great and solid program, when used in conjuntion with FS 2.0, it more or less sucks too, BUT if everything did work like they say it should, it would be a damn cool program (we'll just ignore their god awful support and new version price raping arguments out for now). This is why artists such as Sasha, BT, Richie Hawtin, etc. all jumped on the FS2 bandwagon and then came to SSL. MY POINT: if/when NI/Stanton get FS2 working solidly, Serato/Rane are going to be left in the dust and all those artists seeking a good way to interface recorded audio and midi are going to go back to FS. Mobile DJs, scratch artists, and bedroom DJs will still stay with SSL - it serves their needs damn well, but if the product is not up to par with the competition, no amount of good company support will keep its userbase loyal if a superior product comes out. I'm so passionate on this thread because I want SSL to be the best and don't want to have to deal with that other crap ass company combination ever again.

I hope Serato is reading this thread because I think the stuff we're sharing here is something that a large portion of SSL users would or could really appreciate given a strong backing from Serato/Rane.

There are already bpm counters that can follow music recorded on vinyl, the one on the Pioneer mixers works well, as does the one on the Cycloops, so it definitely can be done.

Add to this that SSL can already detect BPM: look at the picture on top, where you can compare the speed of the 2 tunes.
Read again: tunes speed, not decks.

SSL already detects peaks and bpm in music, and it's quite accurate.

The bad thing is, as long as it doesn't come with an in-the-box, software based mixer, it won't be able to detect the bpm at the master out of your mixer.
And the software mixer won't work well without a midi controller.
A Rane controller?
SSL-2?

An other interesting solution would be if someone could develop a small app to detect bpm from an audio source, and make it work as a rewire master, or maybe a plug-in (if these can send midi clock to the host).

I understand about the bpm already being incorporated...I do afterall own the product and realize that hundreds of electronic bpm detectors exist (behringer has em now, so it must be common) - the explanation of a beat detection system was more for the sake of discussion and understanding amongst those on this thread...my apologies for being ambiguous or obvious.

As for a virtual mixer...I don't think we need this at all and I don't believe that the program needs to know the output of my main mix. For proper midi clock integration, there would be a selector switch in the software which determines which associated midi clock signal (deck 1 or deck 2) you want to send out. That way you can sync up your midi devices to what you're cueing or what you're playing live. See the red sound voyager. It accepts 2 audio inputs, calculates 2 midi clock signals and allows you to select which one you output to your devices.www.turnkey.co.uk
(serato, see my general theme here?... replace hardware w/software, save the user money, sell more SSLs...)

ACME, your software midi clock idea is ingenius and very feasable....that's such a good idea that it may already exist. Very smart, I've never thought of something like that. The problem is that it would only work for computer programs like reason or ableton live. If I have a badass loop on my MC-505 or want to sync up a bpm effect on my Kaoss Pad 2, I need a midi clock signal generated from the source, not internally on a computer running a DAW.

As for your cycloops comment. I want that functionality in ssl bad too as I am an owner of the PVDJ grabber and love it. Check out this thread.www.scratchlive.net

I think that the bpm analyzer should be placed at the master out, just because that way you don't have to think about wich deck you're in sync with.
I don't want to have to switch the bpm-sync to the other deck every time I mix a record - I'm sure I'll do many mistakes!

Linking midi-clock to one of the decks would be nice anyway: if the control record could output time machine code, then you could have a daw synced to the record.

The auto-sync app could output midi clock as well, so that you could sync some hardware.
Or, if it's a vst, use a simple freeware host.

I have a PVDJ Grabber as well :-)
And I'd like a Micro Sync, or a voyager 1 maybe... as soon as I can resolve my kernel panics with SSL and Ableton Live.

Now, say I start to scratch the record or do a reverse on my cd players, the thing is smart enough to realize that the incoming signal just got messed up and enters an internal mode. In internal mode, you can actually "nudge" or "hold" the midi clock signal just as if you were tweaking a turntable....very cool feature (see pics on website).

So it switches to internal mode, midi clock keeps on running, but you are playing the track in reverse, you are in a different timeposition most likely with a different tempo (unless you are doing it in internal modes).The midi clock is off the beat.

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I understand about the bpm already being incorporated...I do afterall own the product and realize that hundreds of electronic bpm detectors exist (behringer has em now, so it must be common)

How good and reliable are they? I have seen built in bpm detectors in the Pioneer mixers, and they horribly suck.

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MY POINT: if/when NI/Stanton get FS2 working solidly

Eh, come on. You know the record that Stanton has here. That wont happen. With each new version they add dozens of bugs. And bug fixes come with the next (paid) update, thats when they introduce new bugs, while the old bugs are not resolved. You know the deal.

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I think that the bpm analyzer should be placed at the master out, just because that way you don't have to think about wich deck you're in sync with.

ACME, there is no master out. You would have to combine both tracks. And then, what happens if you mix? Imagine both tracks are off a little.. What would the bpm analyzer take? Which track is the main track? Also how would you implement cueing? I want to mix a track but I have to beatmatch it, there is no way SSL could say "okay, this track is playing loud, and this tracks is only running in the djs headphone, cause he is trying to match the beat".

TRACK REVERSE:
Yeah, the track reverse thing does mess up the microsync from time to time, but to avoid that, I will only flip the reverse switch on my cd players on the "and" of a beat (halfway between two beats). That way the amount of time between your last forward beat and your first reverse beat will be in in tempo with your mix. Same for the release - only release the reverse halfway between beats. Then you need to do it on the right beats so you don't get your downbeats off.

BPM:
BPM reliability....hmm. Well over the years, I've owned a DJM-600 and didn't think it was too bad. I had an original numark beat keeper than worked well, but you had to define a very tight bpm range. I had a behringer mixer (the djm-300 knockoff) and that one sucked. I liked the one of my pioneer cdj-1000s and my denon dn-s1000s. The best I've had is the built in beatkeeper 2 on my numark cdn-88s. I never really cared though because I can beatmatch. The good ones were always built into the device playing the music - probably because they can see whats coming on the audio track as opposed to a mixer bpm that counts it as it comes.

STANTON/NI:
I hear ya....I really don't think they will ever shape up support or their version upgrade wallet-screws, but if they did by chance come up with something that did work and had feature superiority, I think I'd be willing to deal with the negatives. I can't say that I'd stay with serato/rane despite the overwhelming positives of the companies....sorry.

nik39 took the words out of my mouth with the midi clock on ssl master out - it doesn't exist. That kind of configuration though is what I'm doing right now with a single microsync and I wish I had the flexibility to send data from both decks to maybe prepare for my next song (that could be at a dirrerent tempo). I don't have sends either, so using them to send the microsync different signals is not an option either.

ACME - your midi attached to one of the decks idea....cool, but not possible. If we ever wanted to do someting like that, you might as well use a dedicated usb turntable with mechanical sensors to determine your manipulation of the record. Imagine if a numark CDX (which senses mechanical change in the record vs. platter speed and is very accurate) outputed those movements over usb to ableton, or even a program like ssl for control. It would be the ultimate in accuracy, but we use timecode because every DJ/Club/Musician owns turntables or CD players already and this allows for a $500 upgrade to your current system as opposed to an entirely new setup that could cost 5 or 6 times that. Numark is on that path, but it costs a premium price....look at the new HDX and watch the demo video. www.sonicstate.com

Continuing on why the midi coded records wouldn't work...Midi is a data stream that cannot be communicated over standard audio connections. So assume you had a special turntable that outputted midi clock over a din connector - well, this still isn't very feasable because midi clock was designed as a metronome and syncronizer, and given that it only has 24 ticks in a beat, thats not enough resolution in a signal to control anything more than subtle speed changes - no scratching or reverses for sure because midi is a repetative signal, there's no differentiating absolute or even relative signals - the last tick sounds exactly like the next tick. The only thing that holds it all together is the midi start signals that sync the downbeat.

ACME - you should sell that internal midi app idea haha. I looked last night and I don't think something quite like that exists, yet its totally feasable.

ACME - your midi attached to one of the decks idea....cool, but not possible. If we ever wanted to do someting like that, you might as well use a dedicated usb turntable with mechanical sensors to determine your manipulation of the record. Imagine if a numark CDX (which senses mechanical change in the record vs. platter speed and is very accurate) outputed those movements over usb to ableton, or even a program like ssl for control. It would be the ultimate in accuracy, but we use timecode because every DJ/Club/Musician owns turntables or CD players already and this allows for a $500 upgrade to your current system as opposed to an entirely new setup that could cost 5 or 6 times that. Numark is on that path, but it costs a premium price....look at the new HDX and watch the demo video. www.sonicstate.com

Continuing on why the midi coded records wouldn't work...Midi is a data stream that cannot be communicated over standard audio connections. So assume you had a special turntable that outputted midi clock over a din connector - well, this still isn't very feasable because midi clock was designed as a metronome and syncronizer, and given that it only has 24 ticks in a beat, thats not enough resolution in a signal to control anything more than subtle speed changes - no scratching or reverses for sure because midi is a repetative signal, there's no differentiating absolute or even relative signals - the last tick sounds exactly like the next tick. The only thing that holds it all together is the midi start signals that sync the downbeat.

I wasn't referring to midi clock, but to midi time code, which is used to sync tape recorders and daws and is basically a midi stream at 25/30 fps.

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ACME - you should sell that internal midi app idea haha. I looked last night and I don't think something quite like that exists, yet its totally feasable.

I've looked as well, but there's nothing like that out there.
That's a pity, because I really think this would be the best solution.

It would be great to use midi just so i can use an external controller to trigger hotpoints and loop keys ect . Im getting the AKAI midi drum MPC controller to do my drum patterns but if i could get this to work with SSL would be amazing as it has 16 big massive keys that i could assign to do my loops and jump to markers.

i'm playing set's with ableton live, external synths and effects which must be syncronised somehow.

redsounds beatextractor is on possibly way but not very accurate especially with playing breakbeats.

in ssl there would be a very good place for the analysis of the waveforms for sending midi-triggers.

i would suggest this:

sync-master coming fom one (selectable) of the both channels.
(selector switch should be possible to be mapped to an midi-command for better integration wih an a&h or any other midi-mixer / external device which can send midi-commands).
when switching sync-master from one channel to the other one it should be selectable how "fast" this should happen.
"0" for an hard switch
"1" for smoth "glide" from last trigger channel a to the first trigger on channel b considering the bpm from channel a
"2" same as above but "gliding" happens within 2 beats/triggers
"4" same as obove but within 4 beats/triggers

In today's Midi infested world where DJ's are incorporting programs such as Ableton Live and Reason 3.0 and Midi Controllers as interfaces in the DJ Booth. Companies Like Allen & Heath with their Xone 3D, Ecler with Their Nuo 4 and now Pioneer has added them self's to the list of companies that have developed what I call "Hybrid DJ Controllers" putting all the control in a DJ-Frendly interface. Now with these new tools DJ's around the world will be able to bring their laptop's and software to a gig and never have touch anything else than their turntables and DJ Mixer/Controller. Now, I'm not suggesting to work only out of the DJ Mixer/Controller and laptop, like some DJ's done when using a program like Traktor with some midi controller or like DJ Sahsa "a world reknown trance dj" who work completly out of his Mac only using his custom built "Maven" Midi Controller. But, I am suggesting to make some on-screen controls midi mapable like the cue buttons which I also use as Hot Starts/Stutter buttons, as well as the reverse, gain, the loop controls, and other functions like a track scroll feature. So that we don't have to touch our laptops expect for setting-up and braking down. Ofcourse, while you still spin using your turntables or CD Turntables. It would be awesome if Rane would team up with a company like M-Audio to develope a DJ Midi Controller specially for SSL. The Controller would have to be DJ-Frendly as far as layout and look, So that it would blend in with a DJ Setup. It could be something like the midi controller section on the Xone 3D. Said, Controller should consist of assignable rotary knobs, trigger buttons, and at least 4-6 faders. I hope that the Serato Moderators would consider my suggestions for future software upgrades and Hardware.

Well said DJ Angello! I think Pioneer's move will prove to be pivital because their club mixers are in such wide use. I know many clubs and DJs will upgrade to the 800 just because.

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I don't know that SSL would be the best product to head into ableton live etc territory though

I agree, I don't think SSL should try to become Ableton, or anthing close to it but Midi integration in DJ'ing is here. It also looks like a lot of SSL users are Ableton users. I would love to see SSL and Ableton collaborate to make the two programs work together well.

Great posts Angello and DJ Yaz. I really enjoy this thread because it seems like everybody here is on the same page (not to mention there's no flaming, ignorant posts, or off topic discussion).

As far as Angello's post, the hybrid DJ controller is an awesome idea and I'll buy it in a heartbeat, but what I really want to reitterate (especially to rane/seratto) is that an addition to the program that allows a simple third party MIDI-usb or MIDI-firewire interface to work with SSL should probably be the first step (even if for just simple control mapping at first or even midi-clock). That way implemenatation can be quick and will require no additional hardware development by Rane. Then, once that functionality is installed, I'm all for a hybrid controller made for SSL. In the mean time though, there's a world of already awesome products out there that meet the basic needs and can work with a simple 3rd party interfaces.

DJ Yaz has hit the nail on the head too....we aren't asking for any major functionality changes of Serato and given the Ableton market share, you probably don't won't be given a chance if you tried, but a collaborative effort would be awesome - two separate programs that interface flawlessly.

I can't wait till this comes out because I feel there's a huge gap in the SSL market for it. The new Rane 57 mixer has awesome control for scratch DJs, but there's a lot of us out there who want ultimate customizability in both the equipment we choose to use (mixers, midi contorllers) and the way it interfaces with the software, not something chosen for us and the only way to do that is through a diverse and user-customizable MIDI implementation into SSL.

Much love to Sam for getting on this issue so quickly after recovering from NAMM.

It would be awesome if Rane would team up with a company like M-Audio to develope a DJ Midi Controller specially for SSL. The Controller would have to be DJ-Frendly as far as layout and look, So that it would blend in with a DJ Setup. It could be something like the midi controller section on the Xone 3D. Said, Controller should consist of assignable rotary knobs, trigger buttons, and at least 4-6 faders. I hope that the Serato Moderators would consider my suggestions for future software upgrades and Hardware.

I meant from the standpoint of using serato......the audio signal never touches the laptop's internal sound card, so a software Midi clock program wouldn't do you any good. Other programs would deffinetely benefit though.

Those of you looking for midi control for SSL need to check out this thead. I've implemented it and it works great. Note that this is purely for control of keyboard stroke induced SSL functions, not Midi clock.www.scratchlive.net

Is this the right place , i realy wanna use my midi controller to control SSL . I have an AKAI mpd drum pad machine . I was wondering i know you cannot commit but SAM can i know if this will be in a future update otherwise im considering purchasing a midi - keystroke translator . I dont wanna waste cash if its gonna be implemented anyway .

There is a LOT of midi in the modern DJ booth. Most of the low end software (DJ-1800 on the Mac for example) is supporting midi already so it's only going to become more and more popular. With the advent of Behringer's BC2000, DJ-Kontrol, the DAC-3 (which supports midi IIRC), A&H's Xone, and everything else out there it only makes sense to support midi within the software.

While I understand not implementing it thus far because the SSL product is aimed at the 'traditional DJ' going digital I'm seeing more and more traditional DJ's using more and more tools and this usually means midi.

I'm not looking for a Reason or Ableton Live replacement, but the ability to use a controller can have a HUGE difference in the booth with flexibility.

how is it planned to do the midi-clock?
like i mentioned above with ssl analyzing the song and using this a source for the midi-clock? maybe with that little tricky "gliding" from one deck to the other?

just want to make sure it doesn't end up with an knob for adjusting the bpm of the midi-clock by myself. ;-)

btw: analyzing can be done while building the song-previews in offline-mode. i would love to have an accurate midi-clock instead of an "online-less-cpu" one. ;-)

btw2: with additional midi-timecode or smpte-sync based on the "timing-information" on the ssl-control-record it would be no big thing to enable "video-scratching" using ssl.
just a hint for another killer-feature for the vj's out there. ;-)

If you guys think about how MIDI clock would be used in the real world either with Ableton or a drum machine, you can only realy have one MIDI clock signal playing at a time to the other device, so sending one for each channel doesn't make sense, because you would need some sort of midi selector box......which exist, but aren't meant for this type of application, and cost money so you might as well do it in the software.

A MIDI-clock crossfader (that crossfades between which song goes to the BPM engine) could work, but do you really want to have to manipulate another control at the same time as your mixer faders to switch it back and forth? Of course not...

So, the only good way to do this is to just decide on which deck's BPM information you want to send as MIDI clock by hitting a hard selector button. There should also be a tap-tempo button to overide the midi clock information from the selected deck as well as another button to set the down-beat (tap the button once on the down beat). The final component needed are "push" and "hold" butttons to adjust the positioning of the MIDI clock signal in case the beats do not perfectly line up with the external source....take a look at any MIDI clock gear on the market....they all work like this because there is no other good practical way to do it.

There shouldn't be any complaints against this because if you're going to be syncing to an external MIDI device, then your mix should be tight to begin with which means that there will be a smooth BPM/downbeat transition when you change your source from one deck to the other because your beats are lined up. This means that the midi clock signal won't deviate anyway, negating the need for MIDI clock crossfaders and such. Of course, the BPM engine will be able to sense BPM variences in your mix as you change speed or if there is a slight speed difference in your newly mixed song, but like all hardware on the market, this upgrade will most likely be smart enough to manipulate the MIDI clock signal accordingly in a smooth fashion.

This is primitive, but for those with visual minds, here's an idea of what the BPM / MIDI Clock section would be like.

*buttons for alligning the MIDI clock downbeat and to "hold" or "push" the MIDI clock signal for perfect beat alignment. The downbeat button flashes on each downbeat for visual reference or maybe even downbeat indicators from the MIDI clock signal could be displayed on the waveform of the selected deck?)
| DOWNBEAT ** | | <=HOLD|PUSH=> |

If this sounds good, give it support so the SSL team has a good foundation to do this, or if you have a situation where this wouldn't work for your needs, I'd like to hear that too.

Hmmm regarding the midi controller stuff, wouldn't the best place to change the gain "live" be on your mixer? I'm sure that if plug-ins are developed that they would definitely benefit from MIDI control though...

I don't know that SSL would be the best product to head into ableton live etc territory though... anyone else care to weigh in?

it does not need to head into ableton live territory, only to become compatible w/ live, midi support would be nice in order to minimize the use of the keyboard for more user friendly controls.

I have made earlier posts on this topic; is the serato team planning to make ssl compatible w/ live via ReWire?

If you guys think about how MIDI clock would be used in the real world either with Ableton or a drum machine, you can only realy have one MIDI clock signal playing at a time to the other device, so sending one for each channel doesn't make sense, because you would need some sort of midi selector box......which exist, but aren't meant for this type of application, and cost money so you might as well do it in the software.

so you cant run dif MTC on each ch, to run two devices??
I dont know, Im just asking

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A MIDI-clock crossfader (that crossfades between which song goes to the BPM engine) could work, but do you really want to have to manipulate another control at the same time as your mixer faders to switch it back and forth? Of course not...

nope, wouldnt want to do that, but sep boxes?

I think it would be beter to mix what was coming out of the midi instruments, rather then what was going in

if we couldnt have mtc on ch1 and on ch2 in the same cable, we could still have midi outs a and b

AKIEM, you could deffinetely run two different MIDI networks. If you wanted (and SSL supported it), you could have a groove box playing over a track on your left deck at one BPM and a 2nd groove box playing over a track on your second deck, but it's hard to see the point....I supposed if you wanted to cut from hiphop to techno and have different grooves playing over each track, it would be useful, but it just doesn't seem practical....kinda like you're putting your effort in the wrong place.

As for your second reply, I think you may be confused. We aren't talking about midi instruments....we're talking about a digital data signal (MIDI clock). What you're suggesting is kinda like plugging in two computer network cards into a mixer and trying to merge the signals...it just can't work.

MIDI clock is just a digital signal that contains no musical data whatsoever. It's basically just a tempo, downbeat, and time signature indicator. Do a google search...there's lots of explanations. The idea is to keep all of your devices in sync so that the master mix is in sync which is why it only makes sense to have one MIDI network.

To piggyback on that second reply you had again. The idea of mixing what was going into midi is merely the concept of selecting which audio track goes into the BPM calculation engine that generates the clock signal based on that BPM.

AKIEM, you could deffinetely run two different MIDI networks. If you wanted (and SSL supported it), you could have a groove box playing over a track on your left deck at one BPM and a 2nd groove box playing over a track on your second deck, but it's hard to see the point....I supposed if you wanted to cut from hiphop to techno and have different grooves playing over each track, it would be useful, but it just doesn't seem practical....kinda like you're putting your effort in the wrong place.

right I dont think this would ever be implemented, just could be.

I was thinking of two MPCs, 1 and 2.

I think when someone said "we are working on midi" I think they were talking about triggering only. unless its part of syncing to external video or something

Quote:

As for your second reply, I think you may be confused. We aren't talking about midi instruments....we're talking about a digital data signal (MIDI clock). What you're suggesting is kinda like plugging in two computer network cards into a mixer and trying to merge the signals...it just can't work.

nah, I wasnt talking about mixing mtc, I was talking about mixing the output from two midi devices through your mixer.

The entire ssl box thing should go i think. Arriving at a party and emediatly have to dismantle the entire booth is not cool. SSL is for me the best program (because of the vertical waveforms) but i would like to see some midi too!! For example , being able to control SSL with two "eks xp10's". No more control records, no more needles, no more wire problems (just two line inputs). Now every company is making his own stuff and nothing compatible. There should be more of a standard in these things!! Midi/usb hardware controlers are definetly the future!!!

xp10s are a joke.......I'm speaking from personal experience. Now, a dedicated controller that works like a Numark CDX and has a full size, spinning platter is more feasable.

We are approaching a period where all this technology is going to make the actual skill of manipulating a record to beat match by hand seem silly. I'm not sure how I feel about it to be honest. Scratching aside, if we all wanted things to be super easy and integrated, we'd all be using well organised music collections with Ableton to achieve effortless perfect beat matches, but SSL's dependence on control records keeps the art more "real" and I like that.....I want to have to work to make things sound good. It may sound hypocritical given my other posts on this thread, but there's a fine balance between actual DJing and letting technology do all the work.

Extremely cool thread this! Many inspiring ideas. I have been digging thru so many different posts and threads on this topic that I felt the need to summarise all of this for my own understanding. Hopefully the info below is useful for others.

I myself have a bunch of music released on different labels around the place (Freestyle Records UK, Fingerlickin Records UK, Funk Weapons US, Invada AUS etc) and have always incorporated a lot of electronic gear into live shows and in dj sets. Speaking from a user point of view as a musician, producer, and dj, I am always looking for a better way to mix, remix, and play live my own loops, beats, vocal parts, etc with all the vinyl records and CDRs I play in dj sets. To me the best way is via SSL (for hands-on vinyl manipulation on audio files) and Ableton Live (for manipulating clips of instruments or parts of songs). However the current inability to sync the two applications together makes it tricky.

To summarise the thread discussions so far:
There are many of us out there looking for a way to use both Ableton Live and Serato Scratch Live together (on a single laptop), and to be able to lock your Ableton Live clips to the tempo of the audio coming out of SSL. Some of the ways that this could work are:
1) SSL could generate midi clock/timecode from your audio output (switchable between output channels) and send this clock signal to Ableton.
2) Ableton could autodetect the tempo of an incoming audio input source, and autosync to that tempo.
3) A software interface of some kind could allow SSL and Ableton to sync directly (like a rewire kind of setup), or a plugin inserted in a host application could perform auto tempo detection on an audio input and sync the host to that tempo.

At the moment, neither SSL or Ableton are capable of doing any of these, so we have to look towards an external device that can generate midi clock/timecode from an audio signal. This audio-to-midi device then goes in the middle between SSL and Abelton. The most likely cheap candidate for this is the Red Sound "Sound Bite Micro" (due in August 2006):www.redsound.com

Perhaps we might eventually see (please please please) Serato/Rane release an updated version of the already killer TTM57SL mixer which would have this audio-to-midi send capability built in.

Futuristically, I would really like to be able to assign Ableton Live clips (eg: via a rewire interface) to be triggered from within SSL. ie: not only would the two applications run in sync, but Live clips could also be cued and played from within SSL using SSL records. (ie: complete hands-on turntable manipulation of all of my own music clips and everyone else's music in one hardware/software system). This would be completely insane.

Just using midi from my mixer to control internal mode would be fantastic and save clicking around on the laptop... It wouldnt have to be too complicated, just general functions like play/pause/cue etc.

I am not a scratch DJ. I use Bome's MT to control many aspects of SSL in internal mode with great success - to the point now where I dont use SSL CD's or vinyl - I just use the Pro Version of Bome's MT and a BCD2000 as a controller to convert midi messages into the existing keyboard shortcuts. See my posts in threads on Bome's for details.

The only thing I cant do is adjust pitch with a fader. I have to press and hold buttons. This is fine for pitch bend.

Now, I know SSL is/was designed to emulate vinyl and scratch DJ'ing and that's great. You guys do it brilliantly.

Vertical waveforms, looping with ability to see and set end points as well as midi = Genius set up for non-scratch DJ's. I hardly even need headphones.

The thing is SSL is already so close to it. I cant be that hard to add this functionality and it IS SO GOOD!!

Although, I love SSL. I've just bought M-Audio's Torq. I must say, that it's awesome. I can do everthing that I do with SSL and a hell alot more. There are alot of DJ's dissing Torq without even trying it,and some that don't understand midi all that well. The truth is,it blew my mind.

In Internal Mode: I'm able to Rewire Torg to Ableton LIVE and use my Trigger Fingger together with my X-Sessions midi controllers and mix like DJ Sasha "only from my mac" using the one of the outputs from the Conectiv interface to hook up to my sound system and cueing on my Headphones from the headphone jack on the front of the Conectiv interface. This way i use the internal sync function to sync the beats and it gives me time to play with the built in sampler and effects. I have to admit this is great if are really it to production. In my case I spin House, Techno and Hip Hop. Just imagine taking The Temptations - Just My Imagination and Looping, Sampling and Tweaking it and adding Hip Hop and House loops to creating a live remix on the spot and being able to record it or your set then going back to the studio to master it. or

If I want to spin with CD's or Records I can do that to. while still using the built in FX and sampler.

Yes it's not for everyone. some like blondes and some don't.
and like SSL it's not perfect. yes i love SSL but it still has some flaws. Some of you new guys might know how many updates we had to go though to get this far with SSL. I got my SSL as soon as it came out. I will still spin with SSL but for some gigs Torq will bring more without having to take more to a gig.

If you want to spin a hot new record that you just bought at the record shop or cd, and stil want to use the effects that come with Torq you can. what blew my mind was that I didn't only get to assing an effect to a track. But I got to combine up to 3 FX out of 10 to choose from. Now that more than a Pioneer EFX-1000
which cost u$600 plus shipping.

Some guys have reported that it dosn't work right, that Torq has bugs that have to be fixed. well, maybe their Laptops can't support Torq. As well as other laptops can or maybe they thought that i worked differently. I just think they didn't reserch the product well enough.

Well, as far as the bugs. Even SSL still has bugs.
Think of SSL as a Toddler and Torq as a Infant with some serious toys.

I'm using Torq more in the studio and In Electronic Dance Paties and SSL for my day to day gig.

If you are into remixing and/or Creating Mash Ups. Torq is for you.

I do hope that you my fellow DJ's as well as The Moderators don't feel ofended by what i posted. But, SSL has taken far to long to ansewer our needs. I mean after all this wait we get a BPM Tapper. While we were asking for Auto BPM detection, and sometime early next year we're finally getting the Key Lock feature that we've all been waiting for. After all this wait do we have to pay for Key Lock or is it included in a free upgraded. If so how much. Yes I know you guys want to do things right. I'm 32 now. Maybe, We'll get MIDI Implementation before I hit 40.

Although, I love SSL. I've just bought M-Audio's Torq. I must say, that it's awesome. I can do everthing that I do with SSL and a hell alot more. There are alot of DJ's dissing Torq without even trying it,and some that don't understand midi all that well. The truth is,it blew my mind.

In Internal Mode: I'm able to Rewire Torg to Ableton LIVE and use my Trigger Fingger together with my X-Sessions midi controllers and mix like DJ Sasha "only from my mac" using the one of the outputs from the Conectiv interface to hook up to my sound system and cueing on my Headphones from the headphone jack on the front of the Conectiv interface. This way i use the internal sync function to sync the beats and it gives me time to play with the built in sampler and effects. I have to admit this is great if are really it to production. In my case I spin House, Techno and Hip Hop. Just imagine taking The Temptations - Just My Imagination and Looping, Sampling and Tweaking it and adding Hip Hop and House loops to creating a live remix on the spot and being able to record it or your set then going back to the studio to master it. or

If I want to spin with CD's or Records I can do that to. while still using the built in FX and sampler.

Yes it's not for everyone. some like blondes and some don't.
and like SSL it's not perfect. yes i love SSL but it still has some flaws. Some of you new guys might know how many updates we had to go though to get this far with SSL. I got my SSL as soon as it came out. I will still spin with SSL but for some gigs Torq will bring more without having to take more to a gig.

If you want to spin a hot new record that you just bought at the record shop or cd, and stil want to use the effects that come with Torq you can. what blew my mind was that I didn't only get to assing an effect to a track. But I got to combine up to 3 FX out of 10 to choose from. Now that more than a Pioneer EFX-1000
which cost u$600 plus shipping.

Some guys have reported that it dosn't work right, that Torq has bugs that have to be fixed. well, maybe their Laptops can't support Torq. As well as other laptops can or maybe they thought that i worked differently. I just think they didn't reserch the product well enough.

Well, as far as the bugs. Even SSL still has bugs.
Think of SSL as a Toddler and Torq as a Infant with some serious toys.

I'm using Torq more in the studio and In Electronic Dance Paties and SSL for my day to day gig.

If you are into remixing and/or Creating Mash Ups. Torq is for you.

I do hope that you my fellow DJ's as well as The Moderators don't feel ofended by what i posted. But, SSL has taken far to long to ansewer our needs. I mean after all this wait we get a BPM Tapper. While we were asking for Auto BPM detection, and sometime early next year we're finally getting the Key Lock feature that we've all been waiting for. After all this wait do we have to pay for Key Lock or is it included in a free upgraded. If so how much. Yes I know you guys want to do things right. I'm 32 now. Maybe, We'll get MIDI Implementation before I hit 40.

They are Pc only, so that does me a whole lotta nada. Thanks for the link though I was about to sell my MPC 1000 and get a M-Audio Trigger Finger right that very moment. guess I'll have to wait.

you still can, you can use midistroke or controlaid, i think, on a Mac.

Word! I've tried midiStroke. And, it is really vague in it's instructions. I have a little 3 octave midi keyboard. And I really couldn't tell you what "45" is in reference to it. You assign a number 1-45,(key, i presume) and then on the keyboard shortcut side it's easy enough to figure out.

It would be handy if you could just tap a key on the keyboard and then select what keyboard shortcut you want. MidiStroke is obviously over my head. If you know how to use it to help me map my Oxygen 8 then let me know.

YYYYYEESSSS to advancing SSLs capability with MIDI...
I wish it would be similar to ableton Live to midi map
any controller just by command & BAM! It's up to each user
- dont matter really the genre of music - we are using - why
not have the choice...I would prefer to have Serato Time Strech? SSL's been working 100% from 1.4 to 1.6..for know I keep the controllers all for ableton Live on the Xone 3D =D
..Serato/Rane..come onn..werk it...get ahead of the game..

I think a few of us (if not a lot) are already using MIDI in Live (Reason, Logic, etc.) and have the controllers to take advantage of a MIDI feature in SSL. Using a second program to change MIDI into keystrokes is not a long term solution. We are becoming quite experimental and DJing is not just playing records any longer.

The laptop is becoming a brain center/visual feedback device that is not built for being touched beyond starting SSL (especially in a live environment) in an agressive manner. Keyboards can only take so much and can only give so much tactile feedback.

I think SSL would benifit greatly from a learning MIDI feature (e.g. Live) and this feature would be embraced by those of us who are already using SSL in such a way.

Midi learn is an awesome way to go very flexible with live and if its not a strain on the cpu then SSL would definetly benefit, this thread was started over 2 years ago and all comments point towards ssl users wanting this function so come on guys lets get a bit more control in a 'live' setting (my laptop has tiny buttons and is easy to hit the wrong key). I run ab-live, reason and ssl all at once and can control all but ssl with midi it gets awfully crowded around the decks when everythings in reach and thats only when there is enough room to lay it out the way im comfortable with, if not then im doing a juggling routine just to keep everything running smooth.

Cheers to midi. I am using SSL and another program that supports midi.When actually entertaining the masses, i use SSL. But while experimenting with new stuff(which i would like to incorperate in my shows) i use alternative programs.

Open mind...so to speak. Some of them offer alot of flexibility, but in terms of performance.... mitigates your professionalism.(If that word exists)
I try out many different programs but still comfortable with SSL. When they do SSL supports midi....then we will start a whole new revolution.

What happened with the above ideas? Why isn't this thread anymore linked directly in the feature-suggestion-index?
Was there already an internal discussion at serato about this?

With the already implemented BPM-scan the base work is done. Based on the detected beats the midi-sync shouldn't be a big problem anymore.
Somewhere in this thread I gave an idea how to handle the problem for what the sync-source should be. This would be the big job for development. ;-)

Hmmm regarding the midi controller stuff, wouldn't the best place to change the gain "live" be on your mixer?

well after reading quite a bit of very techincal stuff, i'd like to bump the thread and put in 2 cents.

I have a few Mp3's that i've either ripped from CD or bought thruogh Beatport that just aren't as loud as my other mp3's vynil. within reason you can adjust on the mixer, but i've had to adjust in serrato before. Having the two knobs on my padKontrol work the Gain would awesome. As well as function mapping to the 16 pads.

I also agree its complicated to control serrato's more advanced features during a mix using the mouse.