If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

Any landing you can walk away from is a good one and conversely any win that you go home with is a good one. It may or may not have been pretty, totally depending on your view of how a game should be played, but if you’re a Pacers fan you have to be happy that not only did our team gut out a tough win but that we are actually 2-0. Yes it’s early, yes these have been poor teams but come the last two weeks of the season 2 wins may make the difference between making the playoffs or not or it might even mean the difference between home court advantage in the first round or not.

So let’s be grateful that the boys are getting the job done.

Boy’s really doesn’t apply to our team anymore does it, these are men. God does it ever feel so good to look at our team and know that we are not going to be pushed around, not going to be out toughed, not going to be out hustled.

Scrappy is an overused word but honest to God it fits this team.

Let’s do tonight’s odd thoughts bullet point style.

• I’m going to start off with a complaint. We have got to get our field goal % up; a good team will not allow us to win a game like this. But it shows that right now our defense is so tough that lower level teams never get a lead on us. I know the shots will fall more as the team works together and the coaching staff implements more offensive sets, but man can we go through some slumps.
• Thank God for Danny Granger. To use the vernacular of today’s youth “haters gonna hate” well Danny sure has his fair share of haters. Some of it he deserves most of it he does not. But for tonight not only did he hit big shots to prove (once again) he is an ice cold killer, but his defense was strong all night as well. His post game interview showed me that in fact does he not only not hate having someone else take big shots but he in fact loved that there are so many options.
• Two games in and I’m already ready to build a shrine to David West. I had forgotten what a true power forward looked like who actually had more skill than flash. Two games, TWO GAMES and he has been a large reason for both victories. Everybody will talk about his shot at the end and they should, but I want to talk about that block that he had that wiped away a wide open layup. If your old man pro on the team is never giving up on a play then it’s going to be very hard for the younger guys to give up on plays. That is called setting the example and leading by doing. While he didn’t have the rebounding numbers this game he had in the first he was in the thick of it every single time.
• Lou Amundson was robbed. He should have been credited with a blocked shot but they gave it to Granger. Danny was in the area but the replay to me showed that Lou was the one that got it. He was in there for 8 min. tonight & I was thrilled with every second he was on the floor. I’m a sucker for banger hard worker types and Lou is that in spades. His offense is never going to be smooth, if it was he would be called Tyler Hansbrough, but for 8-10 min every game this guy is like sending a lightning bolt through a set of jumper cables.
• Paul George was a tale of two halves. First half he looked like he was going to make the all-star team if not all NBA first team. Second half he looked like he was going to make DeMar DeRozan an all-star. Not sure what happened there, I understand the shot not falling but he seemed to lose it on defense as well. I think he shares the one trait a lot of our younger players do and that is we tend to take our foot off of the gas when we get a lead. I have no doubt though that he will overcome this. In fact that I am questioning if he had a good game or not and he had 18 points should tell you how good this guy is going to be.
• Toronto made it a point to deny Tyler the ball and often times were giving him a soft double whenever he would make a move down low even without the ball. In fact I think that part of their idea was to be overly physical with Tyler to see if they could get him to lose his cool. To his credit he did not, but to their credit they did pretty much neutralize him in the post. We’ll see how he adjusts for the next game.
• Darren Collison I think has gone out of his way to make certain that the starting point guard spot is his for the foreseeable future. While sometimes he still let’s his man past him more than he should I will say this, the guy has already broken up more fast breaks all by himself than our club did as a whole all of last year. It is uncanny how he can break up a 2-1 fast break by striping the ball. He still hasn’t got his shot going but to his credit he is not looking to get his shot going. He has been a pass first point guard and since he has been released from his shackles has become quite good at running the offense. Still needs some work but so far he has played very well.
• I’m not sure what is up with George Hill’s shot. It just looks flat right now. I like the fact that Frank made him shoot the technical foul shot, I have a feeling he did that just so he could get some confidence by seeing the ball go through the hoop.
• I say this in all seriousness and without any sense of hyperbole. How good will we be if we ever get our field goal % up in the 40’s and maintain our defense and rebounding at this high level.
• I can’t say this enough either. Thank you God for Frank Vogel & for Larry Bird for seeing we needed Frank Vogel and for Herb Simon letting Larry Bird make the move after seeing we needed Frank Vogel. What we had been playing here was literally the antithesis of everything that I knew as basketball. Frank came in here and changed everything and it couldn’t be more different. It’s as though he came in and said “everything you’ve been doing, change it”. I’m just glad basketball as I knew it is back again.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

That was a pretty solid move for him during the game. I don't know where that came from I don't recall him ever really making that move in the past or any kind of "move" really for that matter other than that funky hook shot that usually is rushed and clangs off the back of the rim. I know he worked with Tim Duncan over the summer but I don't think he learned that from Duncan.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

That's exactly what I kept thinking when I saw it. I think I mentioned in the game thread how it's easier to see our guy doing it rather than when Ewing did it, and it looked like traveling every time.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

That's exactly what I kept thinking when I saw it. I think I mentioned in the game thread how it's easier to see our guy doing it rather than when Ewing did it, and it looked like traveling every time.

I actually said the exact same thing to my two friends who were watching the game with me. I see Tyler do almost the same exact thing looks like he tucks the ball away takes 3 steps towards the middle of the paint and chucks it in. So far so good on the refs not calling it though.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

I think it was sometime in the third and Roy was just gassed. I don't know if he got hit in the stomach and it winded him or he just lost all of his air, but he asked to come out of the game & either Frank didn't see it or didn't care but left him in for two more plays.

He was taken out and then came in about 4 min. later (this is all off of the top of my head so I could be totally wrong about the time off the floor and the period that it happened in) but when he came in he seemed very aggressive.

The key to Roy (IMO) has always been to be quick but not rush things. If he takes to long teams adjust quickly and he ends up taking some off balanced shot or throws a poor pass into traffic. If he rushes things he tends to put the ball off the back rim.

As for tonight and the other night as well, I think he has had the perfect mixture of aggresiveness and patience. He is for certain thicker than he was last year and that has made him slightly slower but it has not made a difference yet in his play. In fact the smaller centers right now are not able to move him. I also like his rebounding.

Overall both games Roy has played very well in.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

I think it was sometime in the third and Roy was just gassed. I don't know if he got hit in the stomach and it winded him or he just lost all of his air, but he asked to come out of the game & either Frank didn't see it or didn't care but left him in for two more plays.

He was taken out and then came in about 4 min. later (this is all off of the top of my head so I could be totally wrong about the time off the floor and the period that it happened in) but when he came in he seemed very aggressive.

The key to Roy (IMO) has always been to be quick but not rush things. If he takes to long teams adjust quickly and he ends up taking some off balanced shot or throws a poor pass into traffic. If he rushes things he tends to put the ball off the back rim.

As for tonight and the other night as well, I think he has had the perfect mixture of aggresiveness and patience. He is for certain thicker than he was last year and that has made him slightly slower but it has not made a difference yet in his play. In fact the smaller centers right now are not able to move him. I also like his rebounding.

Overall both games Roy has played very well in.

Roy must be decisive. When he gets position down low, he needs to get the ball and go right into his move because he knows he can. If he's working away from the hoop a little bit, he just needs to read and react to the defense and make his move. Like you said, don't rush the shot, but don't delay the decision.

That will come as they work out the offense, as Hibbert and West settle in as partners, and as Roy becomes more and more comfortable in his role. IMO, he's been great and the role that Vogel has him in is perfect. A solid 10-15 ppg and 10 rebounds with a focus on defense is exactly what we need from Roy. Having West allows us to run the offense through Danny and David, and let the other guys fill in without the pressure of being "the guy."

Other thoughts: Paul George and Darren Collison are taking big steps in their development, and I feel like those two will have as much to do with how good this team can be as anything else. A lot of people sell DC short, IMO. And PG24 is just fun to watch when he's got it going on. Can't wait for him to become more and more consistent.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

I think it was sometime in the third and Roy was just gassed. I don't know if he got hit in the stomach and it winded him or he just lost all of his air, but he asked to come out of the game & either Frank didn't see it or didn't care but left him in for two more plays.

He was taken out and then came in about 4 min. later (this is all off of the top of my head so I could be totally wrong about the time off the floor and the period that it happened in) but when he came in he seemed very aggressive.

The key to Roy (IMO) has always been to be quick but not rush things. If he takes to long teams adjust quickly and he ends up taking some off balanced shot or throws a poor pass into traffic. If he rushes things he tends to put the ball off the back rim.

As for tonight and the other night as well, I think he has had the perfect mixture of aggresiveness and patience. He is for certain thicker than he was last year and that has made him slightly slower but it has not made a difference yet in his play. In fact the smaller centers right now are not able to move him. I also like his rebounding.

Overall both games Roy has played very well in.

Concerning this, I actually have a question about Roy's conditioning. I know he has an issue with asthma that was corrected in changing his medication, and I'm sure that might still come into play now and then. My question is his constant changing with his physical being.

Obviously I've seen players lose weight, tone up, bulk up, etc. but I can't recall an athlete do it to the frequency that Roy does. It's almost like he has never had more than one complete NBA season with the same body. I may be over thinking this but I can't help wonder how this might affect his developement.

Don't get me wrong - I think he's has a great attitude and love the fact he always wants to do better. Just a thought in the back of my head.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

Obviously I've seen players lose weight, tone up, bulk up, etc. but I can't recall an athlete do it to the frequency that Roy does. It's almost like he has never had more than one complete NBA season with the same body. I may be over thinking this but I can't help wonder how this might affect his developement.

Good point. Reminds me of what we've heard of Murphy back in GS, that he bulked up to play center and then was asked to slim down when Nellie came on board. On the bright side, Murph doesn't seem to have any long term health effects from those experiments.

Skillwise I'm not sure that it would affect Hibbert's development very much, but I'm just not in favor of him bulking up too much. J O'Neal is the cautionary tale around here - some of us think that him bulking up his narrow frame led to his body breaking down earlier. With Hibbert, he does look like he has the frame to put on more mass, but at the same time there's only so much weight that human joints can bear, and the feet especially are well-known to be a weak point for 7 footers.

So I was happy to hear that he was trying to get more mobile last year, albeit it was to fit in better with Obie's style. However, Hibbert himself seems to have felt that the lost weight was throwing him off his game too much, so I guess this year was his effort to compensate. Hopefully though he's found the right balance and wouldn't need to tweak his weight too much from now on.

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to wintermute For This Useful Post:

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

What happen to Paul George??

Demar Derozan is really good. PG24 played poorly but guys like Demar will get 20 normally I just though Paul started to settle for the jumper in the 2nd he should of posted up a bit more. (I sound like a broken record with saying he needs to post up)But Derozan hit a lot of tough shots but he does that he is a good scorer. I didnt think his defense was that bad just better offense by Demar.

The Following User Says Thank You to pacer4ever For This Useful Post:

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

another habbit of younger players is that when things go right, everything goes right, and when one thing goes wrong, everything goes wrong. PG missed a shot, Demar made one, and it was all down hill from there.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

The only thing that kept bugging me throughout the game was the painting under each basket that looked like some kind of banner or sign. For the first quarter I kept thinking, "Hope no one gets injured from those things". Always great to spoil a teams home debut.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

The only thing that kept bugging me throughout the game was the painting under each basket that looked like some kind of banner or sign. For the first quarter I kept thinking, "Hope no one gets injured from those things". Always great to spoil a teams home debut.

Glad that I wasn't the only one who thought this, those paintings were playing jedi-mind tricks on me watching the game.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

• Thank God for Danny Granger. To use the vernacular of today’s youth “haters gonna hate” well Danny sure has his fair share of haters. Some of it he deserves most of it he does not. But for tonight not only did he hit big shots to prove (once again) he is an ice cold killer, but his defense was strong all night as well. His post game interview showed me that in fact does he not only not hate having someone else take big shots but he in fact loved that there are so many options.

I don't think many "hate" him. Rather, I think they just want to see Granger play a more complete game. I know he can do it. I realize this criticism may seem a bit ill-timed, as it was Granger hitting the big shots that sealed the deal in this game, but it's the way I've felt for quite awhile. I've been a Granger fan since college, and I'm rooting for him even after he devolves into a jumpshooter and frustrates me.

I hope taking the scoring load off of him helps him focus on other aspects of the game. I like the way things are falling together with the makeup of this year's team, and Granger certainly came up with some great plays. I think if the team can maintain the balance and team effort we've seen early on, this team could go far.

I like the starting lineup of the team better than I have for quite some time. I mean the best in years, and having these energy bigmen is great. I'd like another wing and backup center, but overall I think the team has moved in exactly the direction I hoped it would.

The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to IndyPacer For This Useful Post:

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

Roy should be decisive. But he should also be patient. Too often these past two games he has made a move before fully sizing up his defender and his options. Roy is a gifted passer, but sometimes he won't let the play fully develop, rush it, and either miss a cutter or open spot up or crash into the movement of other players. I think this is something he struggles with and is what leads to a lot of awkward-looking, stumbly plays. He's also falling like Alicia Keys so far. I am impressed by his seeming commitment to rebounding. It may not keep up, but he seems more determined to work the glass and get those double figure rebound games he mentioned in the Slam interview. WIP.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

Roy's scoring will go up considerably if they learn how to make an entry pass, there were 5 turnovers credited to Roy; 1 was where he lost the ball after turning circles to find an open man for 10-14 seconds on top, the others were just P-poor entry passes, like at knee level or to slow so defenders got a hand in between.

Roy and West looks good, but I still think Roy and Hansbrough doesn't look that good.

Our starters are really coming together and look like a real basketball team, now if only DJ took a loooooong holiday, perhaps our bench could too!

So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

If you've done 6 impossible things today?
Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

Roy and West looks good, but I still think Roy and Hansbrough doesn't look that good.

I agree. I think those two just aren't very compatible on the court. Both need to be the dominate big man to be effective on offense. When you mix them together it just doesn't work no matter how good it looks on paper. That is why Hibbert always seemed to be more effective when McBob was on the court, and I bet we will continue to see a similar pattern with West.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

Roy's scoring will go up considerably if they learn how to make an entry pass, there were 5 turnovers credited to Roy; 1 was where he lost the ball after turning circles to find an open man for 10-14 seconds on top, the others were just P-poor entry passes, like at knee level or to slow so defenders got a hand in between.

George Hill is still rusty overall, but he makes great passes into the post. This could make a real difference for our team

.

.

.

.

"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

George Hill is still rusty overall, but he makes great passes into the post. This could make a real difference for our team

I agree. I think he is a better passer than Collison.

The scouting I did on him are long forgotten, but I wanted no part of him coming out of UCLA because...he was all about his own dribble and not about running the court.

He's better, yes, but his strongest passing is still working out of the PnR where he's leaning on his quickness with the ball to create a lane. If he has to spot a lane or make a tough feed with a clever pass, that's just not his thing.

PnR with DC and West/Hans should be pretty reliable though.

Hill isn't just rusty either, I think he's also still trying to feel out the roster and how he fits. He's younger than West and is coming off the bench with a less clear directive. West is the post scorer and stays out of the way on plays for Roy. Hill is being asked to be a PG dribble/attacker but also a true SG shooter and sometimes just a defender. He's got the classic "jack of all trades" type of bench role that can be tough for some players.

As he learns the team and can identify what he needs to be on any given night I think we will see his game really step up. Right now it often feels like he's trying to stay out of the way.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

The scouting I did on him are long forgotten, but I wanted no part of him coming out of UCLA because...he was all about his own dribble and not about running the court.

He's better, yes, but his strongest passing is still working out of the PnR where he's leaning on his quickness with the ball to create a lane. If he has to spot a lane or make a tough feed with a clever pass, that's just not his thing.

PnR with DC and West/Hans should be pretty reliable though.

Hill isn't just rusty either, I think he's also still trying to feel out the roster and how he fits. He's younger than West and is coming off the bench with a less clear directive. West is the post scorer and stays out of the way on plays for Roy. Hill is being asked to be a PG dribble/attacker but also a true SG shooter and sometimes just a defender. He's got the classic "jack of all trades" type of bench role that can be tough for some players.

As he learns the team and can identify what he needs to be on any given night I think we will see his game really step up. Right now it often feels like he's trying to stay out of the way.

Please tell me though that his shooting is rusty, God I don't think I can take a season of his paint chipping shots.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

Please tell me though that his shooting is rusty, God I don't think I can take a season of his paint chipping shots.

His shooting is rusty, happy now?

In all seriousness as you might know I have been a Hill fan since his 1st day in the NBA, I love how he controls the game, plays D and how he can shoot the ball, everybody's shot right now is off, I would give it some time.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Ruining the Raptors home debut

The scouting I did on him are long forgotten, but I wanted no part of him coming out of UCLA because...he was all about his own dribble and not about running the court.

He's better, yes, but his strongest passing is still working out of the PnR where he's leaning on his quickness with the ball to create a lane. If he has to spot a lane or make a tough feed with a clever pass, that's just not his thing.

PnR with DC and West/Hans should be pretty reliable though.

Hill isn't just rusty either, I think he's also still trying to feel out the roster and how he fits. He's younger than West and is coming off the bench with a less clear directive. West is the post scorer and stays out of the way on plays for Roy. Hill is being asked to be a PG dribble/attacker but also a true SG shooter and sometimes just a defender. He's got the classic "jack of all trades" type of bench role that can be tough for some players.

As he learns the team and can identify what he needs to be on any given night I think we will see his game really step up. Right now it often feels like he's trying to stay out of the way.

I hope you are right about Hill just trying to stay out of the way.

I am still reminded of the articles that were posted here that indicated the high level of frustration that Popovich had with respect to Hill being very passive offensively, and that he tended to drift to the corner and stay there. Sounds pretty much familiar, especially with his sharing the traits of being a good defender and passer.

Hopefully, for the extra money, we upgraded the maturity level of Brandon with the added benefit of having another point guard at times when Collison can't handle the load. We will see.