Markakis would look pretty nice in the Cincy farm system about now. I guess the quibbling over 250K doesn't look like much now.

dougdirt

04-07-2006, 11:58 AM

hindsight is always 20/20.... :(

flyer85

04-07-2006, 12:01 PM

hindsight is always 20/20.... :(I remember at the time it all seemed pretty stupid because the kid was a potential "5 tool" OF or stud pitcher and was going to be a top10 pick. I guess they should of used some of the Wagner bonus money.

flyer85

04-07-2006, 12:03 PM

If you're smart you can rebuild rather quickly. The Snakes got Jackson and Quentin in the first round that year.

dougdirt

04-07-2006, 12:05 PM

I like our draft last year, and I think in another year it will really show in the "organizational rankings" that seem pretty biased to me anyways.

flyer85

04-07-2006, 12:10 PM

I like our draft last yearyou won't be able to judge it until the end of this year. 2004 looked bad and BJ, Tatum and Janish did little before getting hurt in a league they were already "old".

We will have to see how Ward, Lecure and Avery do in a full season.

Also keep an eye on RLs guy Abe Woody who is starting at AA. He is Mike Burns with better command and slightly better stuff.

edabbs44

04-07-2006, 12:42 PM

I'm hoping that this year's draft will start with a top college pitcher.

dougdirt

04-07-2006, 12:43 PM

Woody actually is in Sarasota. He played with the Lookouts in ST some, but is actually on the Sarasota Reds roster. 2004 did look pretty bad, but 2005 looked a lot more promising.
Bruce, Wood, Lecure, Ward, Avery, Rosales, Woody....not all will be great, but I think we got some good talent in the draft and it will start to show.

flyer85

04-07-2006, 12:45 PM

Woody actually is in Sarasota. He played with the Lookouts in ST some, but is actually on the Sarasota Reds roster. 2004 did look pretty bad, but 2005 looked a lot more promising.
Bruce, Wood, Lecure, Ward, Avery, Rosales, Woody....not all will be great, but I think we got some good talent in the draft and it will start to show.The Reds need something because they have a huge void of relief pitching(which are usually failed starters) as well.

dougdirt

04-07-2006, 12:59 PM

well Ben Kozlowski and Calvin Medlock are both being turned into relievers this year, not exactly failed starters but they are being converted anyways.

flyer85

04-07-2006, 01:08 PM

well Ben Kozlowski and Calvin Medlock are both being turned into relievers this year, not exactly failed starters but they are being converted anyways.in Kozlowski's case I would say he has failed. In the case of Medlock(at 5'10") he seems to project to relief. The Reds need relief arms as bad as starters so I certainly don't have a problem with it.

lollipopcurve

04-07-2006, 01:14 PM

Markakis would look pretty nice in the Cincy farm system about now. I guess the quibbling over 250K doesn't look like much now.

The Red Sox drafted Texeira, but didn't sign him. The Yankees drafted Prior, but didn't sign him. Etc., etc. etc.I can't remember any recent examples of a draft-and-follow player that exploded yet wasn't signed and went back into the draft and was picked early in the draft. If they blowup in JC ball they get signed. If you aren't willing to pony up the cash then what is the point of selecting a draft-and-follow player.

lollipopcurve

04-07-2006, 01:28 PM

I can't remember any recent examples of a draft-and-follow player that exploded yet wasn't signed and went back into the draft and was picked early in the draft. If they blowup in JC ball they get signed. If you aren't willing to pony up the cash then what is the point of selecting a draft-and-follow player.

I won't argue that it wasn't disappointing to see Markakis go back into the draft. But the guy didn't exactly "explode", and teams were split on whether he'd be a better pitcher or hitter. I'm pretty sure the Reds had him as a pitcher, which makes daydreaming about his outcome in a Reds uniform downright fantasizing.

dougdirt

04-07-2006, 01:28 PM

it wasnt a draft and follow type, Prior and Teixeira both went to college, not JC, they had to wait until their Junior year to be draft eligible again. It was a simple draft and try to sign but didnt happen.

flyer85

04-07-2006, 01:30 PM

I won't argue that it wasn't disappointing to see Markakis go back into the draft. But the guy didn't exactly "explode", and teams were split on whether he'd be a better pitcher or hitter. I'm pretty sure the Reds had him as a pitcher, which makes daydreaming about his outcome in a Reds uniform downright fantasizing.If going from a late round draft-and-follow to #7 overall isn't exploding then I don't know what would be.

The O's were smart to try him as a position player first because if it doesn't work out he can go back to pitching later.

lollipopcurve

04-07-2006, 01:45 PM

If going from a late round draft-and-follow to #7 overall isn't exploding then I don't know what would be.

The O's were smart to try him as a position player first because if it doesn't work out he can go back to pitching later.

OK, I'll give you the explosion. But I think the issue here is that there's reason to believe the Reds never would have developed the player the Orioles got, because the Reds wanted to make him a pitcher. So, perhaps their not signing him was less a tragedy than a comedy of errors, on both the budgeting and evaluation fronts.

edabbs44

04-07-2006, 01:57 PM

The one that hurt was the Sowers selection...but that was probably done b/c Bowden knew he wouldn't sign and the Reds would save some $$$.

M2

04-07-2006, 01:58 PM

OK, I'll give you the explosion. But I think the issue here is that there's reason to believe the Reds never would have developed the player the Orioles got, because the Reds wanted to make him a pitcher. So, perhaps their not signing him was less a tragedy than a comedy of errors, on both the budgeting and evaluation fronts.

Hard to say what they would have done with him. Markakis was leading the JC ranks in HRs when the O's snagged him and I do recall at least one poster on this board who made the case that if he can hit and pitch, you spend the money on him and pick the one that gets him to the majors fastest (namely hitting).

Aronchis

04-07-2006, 02:04 PM

Nope, no quibble, Markakis didn't want to come to Cincy and his play in JC up to that point, allowed him to not come here. Simple as that.

flyer85

04-07-2006, 02:06 PM

Nope, no quibble, Markakis didn't want to come to Cincy and his play in JC up to that point, allowed him to not come here. Simple as that.IIRC, the Reds only offered $1.5M and he wanted another 250K and the Reds said no. It was all about the money. I think he already had an assurance from the O's about what kind of bonus money he would be looking at.

lollipopcurve

04-07-2006, 02:11 PM

Hard to say what they would have done with him.

Right. And as I recall the Reds liked him as a pitcher. I could be wrong, but both times they selected him the draft list showed it was as a pitcher -- and I believe the stories at the time of the signing negotiations indicated they saw him as a pitcher. Which is not to say he wouldn't have failed quickly and they wouldn't have converted him to an outfielder. But it's unlikely that a) he would have failed quickly, and b) the organization would have admitted the failure quickly (for one, they tend not to recognize high-draft failures for years, and for another, the pitcher to position player conversion is highly unusual in pro ball).

Yeah -- definitely wish they'd have signed him, but I doubt he'd be the same guy you're seeing with the O's.

M2

04-07-2006, 02:11 PM

IIRC, the Reds only offered $1.5M and he wanted another 250K and the Reds said no. It was all about the money.

That's how I remember it too. It turned out to be a fairly nominal difference.

lollipop, I know they liked him as pitcher when they drafted him, but I don't know if they were still thinking that way after he tore the cover off the ball during his "follow" season. Proably the safest guess is that the organization still considered him a pitcher because they weren't the most mentally agile bunch on the planet at that time, but his bat had turned heads and it managed to make him a #7 overall pick. It is possible after his .455, 17, 74 season in 2003, the Reds would have agreed with the Orioles that his bat was too good to keep him on the mound.

Aronchis

04-07-2006, 02:12 PM

Actually the Reds only offered $1.5M and he wanted another 250K and the Reds said no. It was all about the money. I think he already had an assurance from the O's about what kind of bonus money he would be looking at.

Markakis didn't want to come here. Add that 250k and it still doesn't matter, he goes back into the draft. Simple as that. Heck, sign the guy to 2.5 mill, considering the poor job the usual Bowden associates did in the draft, take the bat and run, but instead they decided to try it again.

lollipopcurve

04-07-2006, 02:15 PM

The one that hurt was the Sowers selection...but that was probably done b/c Bowden knew he wouldn't sign and the Reds would save some $$$.

I agree. That was truly pathetic. It was those late Bowden years that completely deprived the organization of minor league talent. The Latin American operation was a sham too.

M2

04-07-2006, 02:20 PM

Markakis didn't want to come here.

Bull.

flyer85

04-07-2006, 02:30 PM

Bull.I certainly saw zero evidence of he didn't want to come to Cincinnati. I believe it was Callis(BA) that followed the story and his take it was all about the $$ and Bowden having a limited budget. In actuality I am guessing that if they had signed Markakis they would have went extra cheap with their 2003 draft picks.

lollipopcurve

04-07-2006, 02:31 PM

It is possible after his .455, 17, 74 season in 2003, the Reds would have agreed with the Orioles that his bat was too good to keep him on the mound.

True.

A quick search turns this up...from "The Baseball Savant":

"Cincinnati was going to use him as a pitcher and DH him on his off days"

So -- sounds like the Reds wanted him to keep his options open -- at their price. Oh well, how bout that Milton Loo?