I'm pro abortion in certain circumstances most definitely, I'm anything but militantly anti abortion. I think the way doctors are limited by current laws is a disgrace and we definitely have to make a change.

12 weeks would be similar to Germany, which is fairly conservative by European standards. This would typically cover the vast majority of abortions; is non-invasive and can be easily monitored.

There will still be women leaving the country for abortions though, but it should mean that for the majority, they'll at least have proper support/counselling etc. I'm not sure how you make this more restrictive without essentially mimicking the existing 19th century law.

Maybe just insert a clause saying if a woman's life is in any way endangered or a fetus is unviable an abortion can be performed. Obviously you've then you've got the option of mental distress i.e suicide.

I'm not a legal eagle I'm sure someone here knows alot more but surely there's another option other than 12 week unlimited being offered.

I'd love to repeal but I can't vote for that

Your first sentence is, for all practical purposes, the same thing as the 8th amendment. Determining viability in a clincal setting and weighing that against the life, nevermind the health, of the woman in question is what has medics on tenterhooks.

What is about the 12 week limit, or any limit really, that makes you so uncomfortable?

I'm pro abortion in certain circumstances most definitely, I'm anything but militantly anti abortion. I think the way doctors are limited by current laws is a disgrace and we definitely have to make a change.

12 weeks would be similar to Germany, which is fairly conservative by European standards. This would typically cover the vast majority of abortions; is non-invasive and can be easily monitored.

There will still be women leaving the country for abortions though, but it should mean that for the majority, they'll at least have proper support/counselling etc. I'm not sure how you make this more restrictive without essentially mimicking the existing 19th century law.

Maybe just insert a clause saying if a woman's life is in any way endangered or a fetus is unviable an abortion can be performed. Obviously you've then you've got the option of mental distress i.e suicide.

I'm not a legal eagle I'm sure someone here knows alot more but surely there's another option other than 12 week unlimited being offered.

I'd love to repeal but I can't vote for that

Your first sentence is, for all practical purposes, the same thing as the 8th amendment. Determining viability in a clincal setting and weighing that against the life, nevermind the health, of the woman in question is what has medics on tenterhooks.

What is about the 12 week limit, or any limit really, that makes you so uncomfortable?

The 12 week limit is coincident with when the easily available abortificient pills work, and that, imo, has de facto introduced abortion into Ireland anyway. And I would prefer that to be under medical supervision than otherwise. It is also coincident with when most women will announce themselves pregnant, the risk of first trimester miscarriage having passed.

I'm pro abortion in certain circumstances most definitely, I'm anything but militantly anti abortion. I think the way doctors are limited by current laws is a disgrace and we definitely have to make a change.

12 weeks would be similar to Germany, which is fairly conservative by European standards. This would typically cover the vast majority of abortions; is non-invasive and can be easily monitored.

There will still be women leaving the country for abortions though, but it should mean that for the majority, they'll at least have proper support/counselling etc. I'm not sure how you make this more restrictive without essentially mimicking the existing 19th century law.

Maybe just insert a clause saying if a woman's life is in any way endangered or a fetus is unviable an abortion can be performed. Obviously you've then you've got the option of mental distress i.e suicide.

I'm not a legal eagle I'm sure someone here knows alot more but surely there's another option other than 12 week unlimited being offered.

I'd love to repeal but I can't vote for that

Your first sentence is, for all practical purposes, the same thing as the 8th amendment. Determining viability in a clincal setting and weighing that against the life, nevermind the health, of the woman in question is what has medics on tenterhooks.

What is about the 12 week limit, or any limit really, that makes you so uncomfortable?

I just don't feel comfortable voting for someone for whom a pregnancy/child is simply an inconvenience to have the ability to go into a doctor get some pills and simply kill their baby because they don't want it.

For me that's too much and in reality that's the main reason it will be used not for medical reasons at all

Tbh I probably just won't vote for the first time in my life.

As I said I'm more interested in the political discussion around it and whether it will be passed

My mother referenced today a friend of hers who got pregnant twice in the space of a year to different men and went to the UK for 2 abortions, that to me is f**ked up. She used that example in our discussion as to why she would vote no

I'm pro abortion in certain circumstances most definitely, I'm anything but militantly anti abortion. I think the way doctors are limited by current laws is a disgrace and we definitely have to make a change.

12 weeks would be similar to Germany, which is fairly conservative by European standards. This would typically cover the vast majority of abortions; is non-invasive and can be easily monitored.

There will still be women leaving the country for abortions though, but it should mean that for the majority, they'll at least have proper support/counselling etc. I'm not sure how you make this more restrictive without essentially mimicking the existing 19th century law.

Maybe just insert a clause saying if a woman's life is in any way endangered or a fetus is unviable an abortion can be performed. Obviously you've then you've got the option of mental distress i.e suicide.

I'm not a legal eagle I'm sure someone here knows alot more but surely there's another option other than 12 week unlimited being offered.

I'd love to repeal but I can't vote for that

Your first sentence is, for all practical purposes, the same thing as the 8th amendment. Determining viability in a clincal setting and weighing that against the life, nevermind the health, of the woman in question is what has medics on tenterhooks.

What is about the 12 week limit, or any limit really, that makes you so uncomfortable?

I just don't feel comfortable voting for someone for whom a pregnancy is simply an inconvenience to have the ability to go into a doctor get some pills and simply kill their baby because they don't want it.

For me that's too much and in reality that's the main reason it will be used not for medical reasons at all

Tbh I probably just won't vote for the first time in my life.

Firstly, they (pregnant women) already have the ability to purchase these pills. It's just that they very often take them without the proper support, particularly from their doctor. So, the potential for anything to go wrong vis-a-vis their health persists, without the right structures in place.

Do you not think describing it as "simply an inconvenience" understates the issue, for pregnant women, just a little? We'd kind of need to know their personal circumstances wouldn't we? A pregnancy due to rape is technically an "inconvenience". So is having three children already, but without the wherewithal, financial or otherwise, for raising a fourth. Both circumstances are inconvenient, but unless we want to grill every woman on their precise circumstances and arbitrarily decide if it meets some acceptability test, then perhaps we should trust them to make the decision themselves in consultation with their doctor.

I'd 100% be in favour of abortion in rape cases. I suppose there is so many variables in play it's very hard to have a discussion on it.

I agree with your points and understand completely where you are coming from, all I'm saying is for me morally it would be hard to vote for it.

I think the issue of obtaining pills online makes it nowhere near as accessible as it would be if this were passed. Not that's that's a good thing but it normalises it.

I asked my mate a while ago who's a doctor and he said the risks from taking these pills are absolutely minimal. Doesn't help the discussion but it's another point to consider, as I said I probably will abstein from the vote altogether tbh as I'm torn

How would you feel if you we're in a 2 year relationship and wanted a child, the girl decides she doesn't like you anymore and doesn't want to raise your child and had it aborted.

Will be interesting to see cases brought before the court on child support if this is enacted, one part can say yay but the other says nay. Takes 2 to tango but one to say no. There was a barrister talking about this a while ago

I'm pro abortion in certain circumstances most definitely, I'm anything but militantly anti abortion. I think the way doctors are limited by current laws is a disgrace and we definitely have to make a change.

Goose - your mother voting no because a woman went to England twice highlights the exact opposite. There is freely available abortion, you just have to hop on a plane. So we are just exporting our problem and pretending we don't have it. We do, we just don't have the associated support and follow up services that we should have

Most of the lads that have rented properties are looking to get out. The return is not worth it for the effort and risk.

Did they buy in the bubble?

And did they confuse cashflow with profit when doing their calcs? Can't stand the cannys moaning about cashflow being negative while they pay down capital and build up equity in a valuable asset. Most landlord sob stories forget to address that bit.

Oh and the "landlords exiting in droves" story is a myth.

That is not my experience or that of my clients. I have sold 3 rental properties in the last two years that are now family homes and will be selling two more this year.

A client of mine, who had no need to sell, has disposed of 11 rental properties in the last two years. He was overly invested in property. Many of these were multi unit buildings and some of these have returned to family homes.

Most of the lads that have rented properties are looking to get out. The return is not worth it for the effort and risk.

Did they buy in the bubble?

And did they confuse cashflow with profit when doing their calcs? Can't stand the cannys moaning about cashflow being negative while they pay down capital and build up equity in a valuable asset. Most landlord sob stories forget to address that bit.

Oh and the "landlords exiting in droves" story is a myth.

That is not my experience or that of my clients. I have sold 3 rental properties in the last two years that are now family homes and will be selling two more this year.

A client of mine, who had no need to sell, has disposed of 11 rental properties in the last two years. He was overly invested in property. Many of these were multi unit buildings and some of these have returned to family homes.

Rental properties are a poor investment, but a very efficient form of housing.

What we have currently is three main problems:-

- Firstly, since the crash, a much higher population increase is married to a very low amount of construction;- Secondly, the actual supply of housing has been reduced with the loss of bedsits from the market;- Finally, the low gross profits made by landlords, with the taxation, etc, leaves many making little or no money, or, in some cases (see ER) a loss.

All of those factors make acting as a residential lessor unattractive. And that's without even touching upon the disaster that is Resi Landlord and Tenant Law at the moment. I'd be more confident running a case over a €50 million development site than I would over a residential landlord and tenant dispute. That's a ridiculous state of affairs.

Can't even blame them. Put an ad in the paper and had interest from the usual lads wearing their pants inside out etc and then this one turned up. Works in a hotel and had a reference. Think it was off her uncle now. Hard to know though as before this one one of our worst for pure filth was a pharmacist. We had a prison guard walk off without paying bills and rent. Another teacher do the same.

This hap lark has driven us out of the game, people wanting some of "their money" back in cash.

No no no you lads are all creaming it

Luckily we also have the law on our side and can fúck tenants out at will

A loss of bedsits on the market? From what I see there's absolutely shitloads of bedsits, they're just being slyly marketed as one beds. Cabra, Phibsborough, Rathmines and Stoneybatter are choc-a-bloc with them.

Was out to lunch with my 88 year old father last week, and was surprised at the vehemence of his pro choice stance, which was based on the very idea of government having the nerve to dictate what women should do with their bodies, in particular being forced to carry an already dead baby to term.

And this from a man I'm pretty sure voted to install the 8th in the constitution.

I think the amendment will pass.

article in the Sunday Business Post by Richard Colwell (behind pay wall) basically outlining why despite the findings of their own poll which had 51% in favor of abortion on demand up to 12 weeks, 27% against, 22% undecided that it would actually be a hell of a lot closer come voting day. Whole range of reasons from people being in favor because they're not clear what exactly they are choosing and are confusing it with simply repealing the 8t ,and will become more conservative come election day, undecided tend to vote for status quo etc. Voter turn out is key, people that feel very strongly on topic will vote, ie old people who do vote. I think there's a good chance that we'll fcuk this up. Vast majority of people agree that the current set up is a clsuterfcuk and that it needs to be changed but if its down to a choice between unrestricted abortion on 12 weeks vs keeping it as fcuked up as it is there;s a decent chance we'll end up with the abortion of the current set up - anyway, there's a whole other thread on the topic.

A loss of bedsits on the market? From what I see there's absolutely shitloads of bedsits, they're just being slyly marketed as one beds. Cabra, Phibsborough, Rathmines and Stoneybatter are choc-a-bloc with them.

Far fewer though.

The more respectable side of the market has disappeared. Bedsits were ideal for the people trying to get their first place to stay in Dublin. A huge number of properties left the market between December 2008 and February 2013, as the new rental standards were set out to be delayed until Feb '13. However, that legislation was a Celtic Tiger legacy. With the crash and the reduction in need for accommodation in 2009 to 2012 or so, nobody really noticed a problem. All that really happened was a glut of old houses needing huge work done on them.

Whilst you can still spot the gaffs that remain bedsits in Dublin 6, Phibosboro, Stoneybatter, etc, they are far fewer in number than was previously the case.

Given that most of us on here are late 20s at the youngest, we don't really have to worry about that sector anymore, so it's easy to notice how many properties are gone.

back on topic - nothing new but timely opinion piece in the Business Post about how we fall over ourselves to get in FDI's but aren't all that bothered about our own SME's. Basically that Supermacs announced hiring 400 new staff with new restaurants coming on line but barely makes the news. If McDonagh was wearing a baseball hat and had a skateboard under his arm and had a californian accent we'd have announced a state visit. 2 out of every 3 jobs created since the crash have been by Irish companies - in the era of tightening of our 12.5% and lower rates we need to focus more on promoting our own home grown companies - hard to argue with. On a related note this new proposed digital tax (in my limited understanding of it) is something that could significantly negatively impact our tax take and appeal to foreign companies that doesnt seem to get a lot of discussion.

Huntstown power stations announced to close. Does not seem like a good thing.

its actually a great thing as it means that Eirgrid are finally getting ruthless about the types/efficiencies of power stations that they will support via capacity payments .... which in turn will reduce everyones electricity bill

there are many more, predominantly older stations across Ireland, that will close under this new regime.

Watch however as the ESB ones affected experience strikes, if the workers aren't offered continuance of pay and conditions ..... even in the event of there being no work for them to do

Huntstown power stations announced to close. Does not seem like a good thing.

Viridian playing hardball with Eirgrid.

Expect AES to do the same over Kilroot in Co.Antrim with SONI (a fully owned subsidiary of Eirgrid), with the added benefit of a possible "themmuns closing ussuns" powerplant by the DUP.

There is a single market for electricity on the island of Ireland in place now, which has in turn meant that the joint market is oversupplied. Eirgrid/SONI held auctions for the cheapest (ie most efficiently made) electricity and the plants threatened with closure couldn't make it cheaply enough.

back on topic - nothing new but timely opinion piece in the Business Post about how we fall over ourselves to get in FDI's but aren't all that bothered about our own SME's. Basically that Supermacs announced hiring 400 new staff with new restaurants coming on line but barely makes the news. If McDonagh was wearing a baseball hat and had a skateboard under his arm and had a californian accent we'd have announced a state visit. 2 out of every 3 jobs created since the crash have been by Irish companies - in the era of tightening of our 12.5% and lower rates we need to focus more on promoting our own home grown companies - hard to argue with. On a related note this new proposed digital tax (in my limited understanding of it) is something that could significantly negatively impact our tax take and appeal to foreign companies that doesnt seem to get a lot of discussion.

400 jobs in a Supermacs isn't that big a deal. Would you expect a TD to go to the opening of a new massive McDonalds?

Huntstown power stations announced to close. Does not seem like a good thing.

its actually a great thing as it means that Eirgrid are finally getting ruthless about the types/efficiencies of power stations that they will support via capacity payments .... which in turn will reduce everyones electricity bill

there are many more, predominantly older stations across Ireland, that will close under this new regime.

Watch however as the ESB ones affected experience strikes, if the workers aren't offered continuance of pay and conditions ..... even in the event of there being no work for them to do

The problem with the new reliability option contracts is they only take price into account and not location. Dublin is very close to blackouts because the network is creaking alarmingly and we have at least 5 huge data centres coming on line within the next 2 years.The likes of Huntstown is needed for both frequency response in the immediate future and meeting short to medium term demand. There's no plans to build any newer power plants in the Dublin area so causing two to shut down doesn't seem like a smart idea

I understand that, just using 'cheap' as a cover all. Viridian are acting the bollox, as it is only one of the Huntstown stations that missed out, the other didn't. But Viridian are threatening to close both. AS I understand it they legally need the permission of Eirgrid to close any or either station.

I understand that, just using 'cheap' as a cover all. Viridian are acting the bollox, as it is only one of the Huntstown stations that missed out, the other didn't. But Viridian are threatening to close both. AS I understand it they legally need the permission of Eirgrid to close any or either station.

The two stations are on the one site and have shared systems/costs etc. You can't just "split" them. Anyway, I'm not going into too much detail on this because I know an awful lot about this that will not be discussed here.

I understand that, just using 'cheap' as a cover all. Viridian are acting the bollox, as it is only one of the Huntstown stations that missed out, the other didn't. But Viridian are threatening to close both. AS I understand it they legally need the permission of Eirgrid to close any or either station.

The two stations are on the one site and have shared systems/costs etc. You can't just "split" them. Anyway, I'm not going into too much detail on this because I know an awful lot about this that will not be discussed here.

back on topic - nothing new but timely opinion piece in the Business Post about how we fall over ourselves to get in FDI's but aren't all that bothered about our own SME's. Basically that Supermacs announced hiring 400 new staff with new restaurants coming on line but barely makes the news. If McDonagh was wearing a baseball hat and had a skateboard under his arm and had a californian accent we'd have announced a state visit. 2 out of every 3 jobs created since the crash have been by Irish companies - in the era of tightening of our 12.5% and lower rates we need to focus more on promoting our own home grown companies - hard to argue with. On a related note this new proposed digital tax (in my limited understanding of it) is something that could significantly negatively impact our tax take and appeal to foreign companies that doesnt seem to get a lot of discussion.

The vast majority of those Supermac jobs will have to be subsidised by the state as they don't earn enough to support themselves.

Last edited by lorcanoworms on Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

back on topic - nothing new but timely opinion piece in the Business Post about how we fall over ourselves to get in FDI's but aren't all that bothered about our own SME's. Basically that Supermacs announced hiring 400 new staff with new restaurants coming on line but barely makes the news. If McDonagh was wearing a baseball hat and had a skateboard under his arm and had a californian accent we'd have announced a state visit. 2 out of every 3 jobs created since the crash have been by Irish companies - in the era of tightening of our 12.5% and lower rates we need to focus more on promoting our own home grown companies - hard to argue with. On a related note this new proposed digital tax (in my limited understanding of it) is something that could significantly negatively impact our tax take and appeal to foreign companies that doesnt seem to get a lot of discussion.

400 jobs in a Supermacs isn't that big a deal. Would you expect a TD to go to the opening of a new massive McDonalds?

And that's not even touching upon the fast-food controversy.

and there you have it....but 40 jobs (5 initially followed by 35 over 3 years) by an AI company in the cloud is a jizz fest ; that and if fa company closed down with the loss of 400 jobs it'd be first things on the news tonight. i've only worked for US companies for 7 of the 9 years that i've moved back to Ireland so a job in a place i would never eat is irrelevant to me personally but ya know, bigger picture and all.

back on topic - nothing new but timely opinion piece in the Business Post about how we fall over ourselves to get in FDI's but aren't all that bothered about our own SME's. Basically that Supermacs announced hiring 400 new staff with new restaurants coming on line but barely makes the news. If McDonagh was wearing a baseball hat and had a skateboard under his arm and had a californian accent we'd have announced a state visit. 2 out of every 3 jobs created since the crash have been by Irish companies - in the era of tightening of our 12.5% and lower rates we need to focus more on promoting our own home grown companies - hard to argue with. On a related note this new proposed digital tax (in my limited understanding of it) is something that could significantly negatively impact our tax take and appeal to foreign companies that doesnt seem to get a lot of discussion.

400 jobs in a Supermacs isn't that big a deal. Would you expect a TD to go to the opening of a new massive McDonalds?

And that's not even touching upon the fast-food controversy.

and there you have it....but 40 jobs (5 initially followed by 35 over 3 years) by an AI company in the cloud is a jizz fest ; that and if fa company closed down with the loss of 400 jobs it'd be first things on the news tonight. i've only worked for US companies for 7 of the 9 years that i've moved back to Ireland so a job in a place i would never eat is irrelevant to me personally but ya know, bigger picture and all.

Well, the bigger picture is to attract outside investment. That outside investment fuels the local economy that you're talking about. The jobs will be created or not either way and are more reliant on Ireland continuing to be successful on a global scale. We are dead in the water without FDI.

back on topic - nothing new but timely opinion piece in the Business Post about how we fall over ourselves to get in FDI's but aren't all that bothered about our own SME's. Basically that Supermacs announced hiring 400 new staff with new restaurants coming on line but barely makes the news. If McDonagh was wearing a baseball hat and had a skateboard under his arm and had a californian accent we'd have announced a state visit. 2 out of every 3 jobs created since the crash have been by Irish companies - in the era of tightening of our 12.5% and lower rates we need to focus more on promoting our own home grown companies - hard to argue with. On a related note this new proposed digital tax (in my limited understanding of it) is something that could significantly negatively impact our tax take and appeal to foreign companies that doesnt seem to get a lot of discussion.

400 jobs in a Supermacs isn't that big a deal. Would you expect a TD to go to the opening of a new massive McDonalds?

And that's not even touching upon the fast-food controversy.

and there you have it....but 40 jobs (5 initially followed by 35 over 3 years) by an AI company in the cloud is a jizz fest ; that and if fa company closed down with the loss of 400 jobs it'd be first things on the news tonight. i've only worked for US companies for 7 of the 9 years that i've moved back to Ireland so a job in a place i would never eat is irrelevant to me personally but ya know, bigger picture and all.

Supermacs are building a new plaza on the N4 in Longford. €7m investment. This will provide significant employment especially to younger people and part timers.

I commented on that Davos interview at the time it happened - this Italian hedge fund manager just got up on stage and told a complete bunch of lies in an attempt to trash our reputation. The language he used was beyond the pale - inferring that our tax rate was a joke and that we were stealing from our European neighbours. Batting for Ireland was the feckless Pascal who looked like he didn’t have a good understanding of this himself and he put up a really terrible defence when this needed to be slapped down at source. We have lost the PR war on this one and we’re going to suffer as a result

back on topic - nothing new but timely opinion piece in the Business Post about how we fall over ourselves to get in FDI's but aren't all that bothered about our own SME's. Basically that Supermacs announced hiring 400 new staff with new restaurants coming on line but barely makes the news. If McDonagh was wearing a baseball hat and had a skateboard under his arm and had a californian accent we'd have announced a state visit. 2 out of every 3 jobs created since the crash have been by Irish companies - in the era of tightening of our 12.5% and lower rates we need to focus more on promoting our own home grown companies - hard to argue with. On a related note this new proposed digital tax (in my limited understanding of it) is something that could significantly negatively impact our tax take and appeal to foreign companies that doesnt seem to get a lot of discussion.

400 jobs in a Supermacs isn't that big a deal. Would you expect a TD to go to the opening of a new massive McDonalds?

And that's not even touching upon the fast-food controversy.

and there you have it....but 40 jobs (5 initially followed by 35 over 3 years) by an AI company in the cloud is a jizz fest ; that and if fa company closed down with the loss of 400 jobs it'd be first things on the news tonight. i've only worked for US companies for 7 of the 9 years that i've moved back to Ireland so a job in a place i would never eat is irrelevant to me personally but ya know, bigger picture and all.

Well, the bigger picture is to attract outside investment. That outside investment fuels the local economy that you're talking about. The jobs will be created or not either way and are more reliant on Ireland continuing to be successful on a global scale. We are dead in the water without FDI.

you dont get it stats.....no one is arguing about FDI and its importance - the point is that we should try and move away from relying on it to the extent that we do. Especially with moves afoot that are completely outside our control to make us less attractive to forin companies