Just see what happens if and when gang bangers start hitting the playa. The American River parkway used to be a haven for the hippie types. They were run out by the urban dwellers (gang bangers and wannabe gang bangers). We now have real problems and violence where virtually none existed before. It's the same with the Second Saturday art exhibits. Let's make a deal, I'll live with the hippies, and you can live with the gang bangers. It will be difficult to round up enough hippies though. There are not many of them around.

Gangs in public schools. Are there really enough hippies in public schools to talk about? Is there a need for a "Hippie Unit?"

When I lived in the Tower District in Fresno I listened to the gun fire, some was automatic, get closer over time.For anyone in Sac(ramento), The Tower District is like Lavender Lane in Midtown.

Now I live on the edge of Oak Park in Sac. I don't like people who I see as non-contributors and users(of people), it doesn't matter to me what labels you want to apply to them.Until now, I only supposed you were from Sac based on your posts. I wouldn't mind meeting with you, over coffee or chai, to discuss why using terminology where people attribute different meanings to the words is counter productive to discussions unless you just want to stir some shit up.

We already have way too many "players" and "wiggers", however, "gang bangers" would not come out to the playa in significant numbers unless someone establishes a prefab camp for them, BRC is expensive to stay at if you don't already have the needed infrastructure. I can see "ballers", "rollers", maybe even a "shot caller" coming out to the Playa, and as long as they follow the 10 Principles and play nice I'd welcome them.

May Shai-Hulud clear the path for you.

Kомиссáр Logan

Over here sand blows; over there sand blows.Over there a rich man waits; over here I wait.Secrets give birth to more secrets

Robrob, I bet you never would have dreamed that your simple question about favorite principles would descend into a philosophical discussion about the meaning of the word "hippie". But it's understandable. It's hard to faithfully live by any set of principles, whether you profess to be a hippie, a Christian, a vegetarian, a Muslim, or a burner. And the moment you profess to others that you are trying to live by some principles, that's the moment that others are going to point out when you don't live by them. It's a form of self-protection against the "holier than thou" power that can be confused with the true intent of the principles.

At one time or another, we're all hypocrites. We're all full of shit.

Perfect example: We as burners are so proud about "Leaving No Trace", but the whole event is centered (literally and figuratively) around burning lumber that has been glued, laminated, treated with formaldehyde, and painted, thus creating "traces" in the air of noxious fumes, as well as charcoal and ashes that have to be disposed of into some landfill somewhere here on this earth. And we won't get into the thousands if not millions of gallons of fossil fuels that were burned to get us all there (and idle in the entry/exodus lines).

Still, it doesn't mean that the principles are useless. Everything in moderation. And we do what we can. This festival is also centered literally and figuratively on a HUMAN, and to me this is the main principle of Burning Man - a celebration of our humanity, in all its forms. As many have stated, the principles are guidelines. And when we get off course, the lines are there to guide us back.

“In the end these things matter most: How well did you love? How fully did you live? How deeply did you let go?” ― Siddhārtha Gautama

I guess from your list that meatetarians, omnivores, vegans, agnostics and atheists are not considered worth mentioning.That's the problem with lists, it's hard for individuals to make one that doesn't exclude items that others might find important.

The reality of the Leave No Trace Principle is so people become responsible for cleaning up after themselves. This is only in regards to the physical area where the event is held. BRC sits in the middle of a "protected" wilderness area where the only permitted camping is Leave No Trace Camping, or pack it in, pack it out. The area must look like it did prior to event.

Leave No Trace does not extend to the pollution or carbon footprint caused by the use of combustion or fire.Leave No Trace does not apply to the displaced refuse once it leaves the event and the local roadways.Leave No Trace does not apply to the experiences and memories we have each year from attending.

Last edited by marck on Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

May Shai-Hulud clear the path for you.

Kомиссáр Logan

Over here sand blows; over there sand blows.Over there a rich man waits; over here I wait.Secrets give birth to more secrets

does any other festival have the principles which involve the participants so much? the LNT aspect is a big part of it look at any picture of any other festival after its over, it looks like a town dump, people literally just up and go, one of my old landlords used to go to glastonbury after the festival and come back with tents/beer/tins of food. its because the people going are spectators to the event.Even festivals apparentely "inspired" by burning man often fail to realise that burning man is a complete package, though we have walk in camping hushville etc the whole site is the festival its not neatly divided into camping and performance areas. several of the english festivals dont alow you to bring your own booze (well not enough to last anyway) presumably so they can sell enough to make a profit. the decommodification of BM means you really do need to prepare (though i bet you could get hammered every day for free if you tried - and fed) i know of one camper who as far as i know didnt eat any of their own food but they still brought it. all of the principles encourage a sense of community, now that bm is 50,000 strong its too big for it be just one group anymore but its still all part of the same big thing, i may not know my neighbours name, but if asked at BM i would probably get offered a beer and a hug- or something. in london if i start talking to someone at the traffic lights or whatever they usually either ignore me or tell me to "fuck off twat"

FREE THE SHERPASBurners with torches is right and natural and just.-fishy.CATCH AND RELEASE.

I would argue that Gifting is Burning Man, As a citizen of Black Rock City you give and you receive, if you do not understand gifting you are a tourist. Our community gift (the sum of the parts) is your adventure. A citizen’s gift is the currency of burning man. Gifting is the wellspring from which Black Rock City flowers. But the other principles make it happen as well, just a kind of “the horse before the cart issue” and understanding Gifting, is to me, the beginning of understanding our shared Burning Man culture.

tootsybean wrote:I would argue that Gifting is Burning Man, As a citizen of Black Rock City you give and you receive, if you do not understand gifting you are a tourist. Our community gift (the sum of the parts) is your adventure. A citizen’s gift is the currency of burning man. Gifting is the wellspring from which Black Rock City flowers. But the other principles make it happen as well, just a kind of “the horse before the cart issue” and understanding Gifting, is to me, the beginning of understanding our shared Burning Man culture.

It starts with Decommodification. I believe most other principles can come as a result of that.

If implemented in a pure way, the result would completely separate the individual from the commercial world. This, in my mind, involves leaving your RV at home, building your own housing, collecting your own food and water, and crafting every tool and gift that you need to use during your stay. All this is obviously impractical in a desert where there are no resources available to build anything (a forest would work, but unauthorized use of the land like that might rub its regional government the wrong way), and again impractical in the short timespan of a week. That's why we have all the RVs full of beer cases, and a store that sells ice. But I would argue that the principle of decommodification is served a little better with each item every burner chooses not to bring from the outside.

The ultimate end that I see being created out of decommodification is radical self-reliance. If you depend on things you bring in from the outside, you may never learn where your true talents and strengths lie. Rather, once decommodified as much as possible, separated as much as possible from the commercial world, a burner is forced to become creative and resourceful, or perish. You learn nothing about yourself by giving away booze that you bought at a store. The value you transfer to others is your ability to buy and transport goods - not very decommodified at all. Going without such things and relying on your own skills to help yourself and others (given the right raw materials, since we're still in a desert), is easily more satisfying than sharing your resources.

This is where radical self-expression and gifting come in. People can be very creative once they understand themselves, and when there's something you do best, it's easy for you to give it to other people who, lacking your skills and talents, are happy to receive it. A gift can be music, a dance performance, help raising a structure, a stimulating conversation, a ride on an art car, etc, and all those things at the same time are ways of expressing yourself (the art car expressing your mechanical knowledge and artistic vision).

With the above in place, participation and communal effort are inevitable. Not many people can do everything well. Those who can still find themselves bored and lonely without a community. The exchange of knowledge and skills and art among people is a fundamental part of human nature, naturally flowing freely until you start to place numerical values on the exchanges, which is an unfortunate byproduct of large populations that are unable to shame parasites into fairness and so must use currency to enforce it. In any case, someone who does not participate will feel strange and unhappy, and they might not understand why. It's human nature trying to climb its way out from where commercial society has buried it with the philosophy of wealth as a desirable end (and not as a means to the more natural end of community acceptance). People naturally want to work together, and what usually stops them is fear of being exploited by strangers who have no loyalty to the community. If no one is a stranger, as would have been the case when burning man started, then this fear does not exist. This is a bit of a problem now that burning man has a population in the thousands, because now almost everyone is a stranger, and sometimes strangers rob your tent, steal your bike, or date rape you if you're a woman. There are no easy answers to that problem.

Radical inclusion seems to be at odds with this. I agree that no one should be turned away who is willing to accept the principles above. But there are always people out there who don't respect the community, and only want to exploit it to take what they can. The problem is, how do you spot those people? It's not like they just come from another country, or have a different skin colour, or speak a different language, or dress differently. They may even be good people when they arrive, only to change their minds when they see an opportunity to gain. So we can't profile them or filter them with interviews, therefore we must accept everyone. The thing I see working best to keep the thugs out are the first two principles I mentioned, decommodification and radical self-reliance. Burning Man is held in a dusty out-of-the-way place, where money is useless and the effort to go there is substantial. This serves to discourage most troublemakers by making their gains not worth the effort they have to invest to go there. But that's about as secure as M.A.D. protecting the world from nuclear war, so I don't know. Participation and communal effort are what keeps most of us burners good people - we don't want to ruin something we work hard to be a part of - but these principles are not forced. The ones we call spectators need not abide by them in order to be comfortable, and so some won't, and so their detachment from the community puts them at liberty to turn evil. And that just sucks.

Civic responsibility and leaving no trace are two necessary principles that I see less as elements of culture and more as just constraints on behaviour in order to prevent the thing from being shut down. Just as countries make laws to keep order, and environmental policies to protect the public good from the ambitions of selfish industrialists, but call neither of those things really part of their culture, I see civic responsibility and leaving no trace as just two things you have to abide by. Particularly leaving no trace, since humans didn't really evolve to be environmentally responsible - the environment consistently kicked our asses until the bronze age, and was never really an issue until maybe 300 years ago. As for laws, (most) humans have a good enough sense of right and wrong to coexist peacefully and want to preserve the public good, but then we also party on Uncle Sam's land, and so we also have to respect what Uncle Sam says we can and can't do. Not a culture, just a set of rules. If anything, it's an inescapable element of another culture - default America.

The last one is immediacy. I haven't fully gotten used to this one yet. I'm the personality type that needs to build up a relationship with my community slowly, a few people at a time. To me, immediacy would be a bit like that movie, Groundhog Day - ultimately frustrating when you can't pursue any relationship or accumulate any kind of identity without it being swiftly wiped away. It seems like the whole point of all the post-burn events and year-round participation is to counteract this immediacy! Or maybe I've misunderstood the principle. I've only been burning since.... a month ago, so it's possible I've missed the point on some of this. My two cents, anyways.

I don't burn that way, and I expect that the price of my doing so is higher than for others. but, I'm tired of this hobby horse.

Of course, I'm one of those cynics who's likely to point out that "Decommodification" is a result of the BLM's outlawing vending at the event. Yes, they make a lot of virtue out of that necessity, and I do love that there's no advertising. (Okay, limited advertising.) It may even be my favorite principle. If I have favorites. Is there an equivalent of the "thirteenth step" in this context?

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

ohmu wrote:I've only been burning since.... a month ago, so it's possible I've missed the point on some of this. My two cents, anyways.

How was your first burn? Say hi to Nausicaä.Please don't get the wrong idea, but what you might be thinking BurningMan is all about, might not be what it is for others. Many of the rules are in place just to keep the event going. Some have morphed into values for some of us, but not for others.

I'm glad you have a value you can start with and develop your overall burnview. However, I disagree with some of your presuppositions but I only base this on my experiences.

I see a lot of commodification at BurningMan, just different commodities than what we see in the default world. We also have branding, but I think we are doing a decent job of keeping corporate advertising out. I think the spirit of decommodification is that we are not there to make a "profit" off of others, however you want to define profit. We are not there to use the event to advance our businesses outside of the event.

Even if I give advice from personal experience about what tents I think are better, I'm not there to tell other people what they should or shouldn't buy. That is their own choice, I'm here to enjoy myself and the company of other people who I get along with.

May Shai-Hulud clear the path for you.

Kомиссáр Logan

Over here sand blows; over there sand blows.Over there a rich man waits; over here I wait.Secrets give birth to more secrets

marck wrote:I guess from your list that meatetarians, omnivores, vegans, agnostics and atheists are not considered worth mentioning.That's the problem with lists, it's hard for individuals to make one that doesn't exclude items that others might find important.

Point taken, and you are correct. I should have ended the list with "and anyone else who espouses to live by a principle or a set of principles". Be assured that I would never think that anyone is "not considered worth mentioning", my friend. I try to follow the principle of Radical Inclusion each day, even for people with whom I disagree. I did say, however, covering all bases, that at one time or another that "we are all full of shit". The minute that an espoused meatetarian ate a vegetable or an espoused atheist said "God dammit!" they would in theory be hypocritical to their espoused principle. Doesn't make them a bad person in my eyes, and I admire anyone who tries to follow their convictions as long as it respects the rights of other people. For me, that includes hippies and gun toters alike.

I've also been thinking about this quote:

marck wrote:The reality of the Leave No Trace Principle is so people become responsible for cleaning up after themselves. This is only in regards to the physical area where the event is held.

I'm hearing your "pack it in, pack it out" argument. It does say in the description that "We are committed to leaving no physical trace of our activities wherever we gather." However, it also espouses that "Our community respects the environment", and by definition "environment" includes air, water, plant life, animal life, and (there I go making lists again) anything that surrounds the event. Burning formaldehyde and paints affects the air, and the ashen fallouts rain down far away from the burns which is impossible to retrieve, thus affecting the physical plant life and animal life, albeit most likely to a minor degree. A bit hypocritical? I would say so. But along with being respectful, I think it's also important to be reasonable. Although it's impossible to measure, I would argue that the amount of benefit gained by 50,000 humans relaxing and sharing art, love, life, (and a whole lot of fire!) in the desert far outweighs the minimal harm done. So am I going to Burning Man next year? Hell yes! We do what we can and try to have as much respect we can in the process. And maybe that principle should be re-written a bit as you have suggested in a previous post.

An interesting related story: I experienced a guy riding up and down the Burning Man entry lines on his bike, long hair, beard, shouting "Turn off your engines!" I respected what he had to say, and didn't get mad at him or call him a hippie. But I would really be interested to know if he was actually going to enter the event himself and be entertained by all the fossil fuel and wood as it gets inefficiently burned inside the event. That would be some seriously hypocritical shit right there When someone uses their principles to shout orders at me, that's disrespectful and uncool.

Unless, of course, I'm biking through the back streets of Burning Man and a guy is shouting through a bullhorn that I must jump on his trampoline and must take my shirt off while doing so. Then I'm gonna stop my bike and do like I'm told.

This discussion really made me consider the difference between a 'rule' and a 'principle'. Rules are individual, enforceable, and require punishment for not being followed. For example, 'no guns or illegal drugs permitted' is a rule of law and thus must be a rule of Burning Man. If an individual is caught breaking the rule by the LEOs, that person gets punished according to the law. Principles, on the other hand, involve community, do not need to be enforced but are followed out of respect for the community, and the community corrects the offenders by encouragement in the positive direction. To me, that's the beauty of the Burning Man community. It's the principle of the thing.

One more quote:

marck wrote:Leave No Trace does not apply to the experiences and memories we have each year from attending.

I agree wholeheartedly. Good to have you here on ePlaya and I look forward to reading your further posts. Also, I hope to see you next year on the physical Playa.

I would really be interested to know if he was actually going to enter the event himself and be entertained by all the fossil fuel and wood as it gets inefficiently burned inside the event. That would be some seriously hypocritical shit right there

Not necessarily, since all the stuff that burns on the playa is burnt for a purpose - entertainment or ease of transport - while the gas burned by idling cars has no purpose at all, but is done out of carelessness. His philosophy could be one of minimizing waste, rather than minimizing environmental damage. Whether it's uncool depends on his tone, of course. I would heed a suggestion to turn off my engine because it's wasting my gas and it's in my interest to stop idling, but if he was barking orders and being aggressive, I'd tell him to chill out, and keep my engine running until he said "please". It's all flies, honey, and vinegar.

Radical Self wrote:Unless, of course, I'm biking through the back streets of Burning Man and a guy is shouting through a bullhorn that I must jump on his trampoline and must take my shirt off while doing so. Then I'm gonna stop my bike and do like I'm told.