the ha ha guy:keithdcmoore: We say that people get a medal for what they did... But really, they get the medal for what we asked them to do... In this case, kill people with a joystick and then go home and try to act normal with their family. Drone pilot stress is a kind of stress that hasn't made it into any shiatty indie films or documentaries yet...

And we ask infantrymen to watch as the rest of their squad dies only inches away, while killing people face to face, then go home and then go home and try to act normal with their family. So why should they get a lesser medal than those who only risk getting mild carpal tunnel syndrome?

I'm sorry- did I say those fine infantryman don't deserve respect? They do. Shower them with medals. It's also 2013 now and we have a sick bunch of dew drinking farks who have more kills than the Red Baron each week. Respect to the kids whose job is not mine.

hasty ambush:BarkingUnicorn: Popcorn Johnny: staplermofo: Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.

A higher % of people in the military have a college degree than found in the general population.

That's counting only survivors.

Better chance of surviving the military than the streets of Chicago:

Chicago Homicides Outnumber U.S. Troop Killings In Afghanistan

Unless you happen to be a civillian in an area where we either don't like someone or have taken responsibility for security and failed. As long as the troops are safe though, that's the important thing.

Except in this case them getting the BSM put them in a better promotional position over people that may have actually seen combat. Also, high level medals can make the difference when competing for special duties or education/commissioning programs. Granted, they were at least IN Afghanistan so could say they were at least in the daily danger of being mortared or overrun depending where they were. Whether that should be worthy of a BSM and not a JCM or AFCM is another matter.

Why does someone who was actually in Afghanistan automatically deserve a better promotion than someone who was able to carry out the mission while not in Afghanistan?

Why should people who sacrifice significantly less than those that actually deploy be rewarded the same?

I had typed up a short paragraph trying to explain life working the RPA lines and how over an extended period of time it does cause legitimate symptoms of PTSd but then I remember this is Fark, ain't no one got time for that.

keithdcmoore:the ha ha guy: keithdcmoore: We say that people get a medal for what they did... But really, they get the medal for what we asked them to do... In this case, kill people with a joystick and then go home and try to act normal with their family. Drone pilot stress is a kind of stress that hasn't made it into any shiatty indie films or documentaries yet...

And we ask infantrymen to watch as the rest of their squad dies only inches away, while killing people face to face, then go home and then go home and try to act normal with their family. So why should they get a lesser medal than those who only risk getting mild carpal tunnel syndrome?

I'm sorry- did I say those fine infantryman don't deserve respect? They do. Shower them with medals. It's also 2013 now and we have a sick bunch of dew drinking farks who have more kills than the Red Baron each week. Respect to the kids whose job is not mine.

The argument isn't about if they do or don't deserve recognition. The argument is about the medal priority being above both the bronze star with valor and the purple heart. It's certainly a task worthy of recognition, but try to find anyone about to go outside the wire who wouldn't swap places with someone in an air conditioned office staring at a monitor with a joystick.

platedlizard:But go on thinking it's just like playing video games, it only shows how ignorant and heartless you are.

It is just like playing video games... if you took a really incredibly shiatty video game and forced a small group of people to play it in shifts for months on end with almost no plot advancement, PC development, or loot, and took the couple of minutes per week of play requiring action and tied success or failure to whether someone else gets to live or die. Thing is, if you fail, you get to respawn... but PFC Jones in the sand there doesn't, and even though he's just a blob on your screen, you still know.

keithdcmoore:the ha ha guy: keithdcmoore: We say that people get a medal for what they did... But really, they get the medal for what we asked them to do... In this case, kill people with a joystick and then go home and try to act normal with their family. Drone pilot stress is a kind of stress that hasn't made it into any shiatty indie films or documentaries yet...

And we ask infantrymen to watch as the rest of their squad dies only inches away, while killing people face to face, then go home and then go home and try to act normal with their family. So why should they get a lesser medal than those who only risk getting mild carpal tunnel syndrome?

I'm sorry- did I say those fine infantryman don't deserve respect? They do. Shower them with medals. It's also 2013 now and we have a sick bunch of dew drinking farks who have more kills than the Red Baron each week. Respect to the kids whose job is not mine.

Did I say those drone pilots don't deserve respect? They do, but certainly not a higher level of respect than those who put themselves in imminent danger every day with little to no official recognition for their actions.

platedlizard:Why does someone who was actually in Afghanistan automatically deserve a better promotion than someone who was able to carry out the mission while not in Afghanistan

I would say someone that actually risked their life deserves better rewards/recognitiobn that one that didn't. And 9/10 they are going to have a better understanding of what it is like for peopel ont he ground.

I don't think that shoudl always translate to a "better promotion", but I see it being a factor.

My fiancee was with the Rangers for 17 and a half years. He has a Bronze Star with V device, along with 4 Purple Hearts. Every soldier plays a role. Every soldier's part is important. But to make their medals higher than those that were actually on the front lines? You have got to be kidding me. If they can get that, then what stops them from earning the Medal of Honor? How would you even earn it? Those medals are high-ranking for a reason. Pressing a button, albeit still an important part of the military, is not "more valorous" (for lack of better term) than the ground-and-pound kicking-in-doors action.

keithdcmoore:We say that people get a medal for what they did... But really, they get the medal for what we asked them to do...

The US -and, I suspect, most militaries- actually have medals covering both situations: some for doing what you were asked, and some for going "above and beyond the call of duty."

If there is to be a medal for exceptional drone piloting, then yeah; it belongs in the cluster of medals for going beyond the call. But to put it above any such medal that involves being there -that involves actually taking risks- is a grave insult.

Fizpez:Teknowaffle: EngineerAU: If you're bored, check out Wikipedia's list of military awards and decorations. You'll be surprised by some of the things they hand out medals for.

Right before he retired from the Navy, my dad got a medal for figuring out a way to save the Navy millions of dollars. It also had a hand written note from Bill Clinton along with it.

See that's where he screwed up big time - should have kept the idea to himself for another 6 months then offered it back to the military as a "consultant". Plan to save $millions as someone IN the military = pretty ribbon and 15 seconds of presidents time. Plan to save $millions as someone NOT in the military = $100,000+ in consulting fees every year until the people you made look good retire or move on.

The ribbon should be among the most prestigious of the "support" medals but having zero chance of having your head blown off at any moment kind of puts it below any combat medal IMHO.

Gdalescrboz:Look at all the basement dwellers passing judgement on who should get medals for contributions to a war. You impress me on a daiy basis Fark.

The issue is not whether they should get a medal, it's whether they should get a higher medal than is awarded to those who throw themselves on a grenade to save their fellow soldiers.

I don't think it takes an armchair general to figure out that laying on top of an active grenade will cause more injuries than merely using a joystick and watching a video feed. Unfortunately, the real generals apparently believe otherwise.

Pinned down facing what felt like certain death, called for air support; 7th aviation came and saved our ass'. The 2 Apache pilots were dropping hot rounds on us, that's how close it was. These pilots saved lives that day, while taking fire.

Later I had a chance to meet one of the pilots, shook his hand as he stated "just doing our job", neither of them would ever see a medal for this.

I understand the need for excellent drone operators, but medals get pinned on the chest that was in the fight.

liam76:modesto: Unless you happen to be a civillian in an area where we either don't like someone or have taken responsibility for security and failed.

So it is the US fault when taliban kill locals?!?

Unless I misunderstood you here, you are going off the derp end...

There can be more than one cause of a thing, and there is plenty of blame to go around. Are the people who blow themselves up or launch other attacks on civillins in afghanistan to blame for those deaths? Of course they are.

However. When we rolled in and deposed the government there, odious as it was, we became responsible fot the outcome. A long and bloody insurgency was completely foreseeable. So yes, part of that is on us. How many bombings of civilian targets were there in Afghanistan prior to the US invasion? I don't know the answer to that question, but I bet it is a lot fewer than the last 10 years.

And hey, if you don't like the example of America's longest war, remember Iraq? I know that's all ancient history now since we failed, the money stopped flowing, and so we cut and ran, but if you could ask the over 100,000 civillians killed in that debacle, I bet they wouldn't be as quick as you to relieve us of responsibility for the consequences of our actions.

Medals, titles, honor, and other forms of empty accolades work well because they're cheap. Don't worry veterans, your medal is worth just as much as theirs. In the end, all of these things are just intended to be ways to confer social respect without others having to know anything personal. This means that people are intended to judge you in a positive way based on almost no information. There's a lot wrong with that thought process. It's the same one that brought us "Sandwich Artist" and "Senior Correspondent."

It's about having enough candy and sparklies for the droolers they will trick into drone-striking American Citizens on US soil with Hellfire missiles for failing to pay enough taxes on their marijuana, or collecting too many black rifles, or having too many members of their church.

Bribes for patsys being used to strike against "prohibited persons" and other political enemies on US soil.

Dracolich:Medals, titles, honor, and other forms of empty accolades work well because they're cheap. Don't worry veterans, your medal is worth just as much as theirs. In the end, all of these things are just intended to be ways to confer social respect without others having to know anything personal. This means that people are intended to judge you in a positive way based on almost no information. There's a lot wrong with that thought process. It's the same one that brought us "Sandwich Artist" and "Senior Correspondent."

Which is untrue. While in the military, medals, and titles when you go progress higher in rank, have a tangible impact when competing for promotion, special duties, and education opportunities. My background is USAF, so medals, at least those that count for points, are directly tied in to testing. Other decorations, such as humanitarian/volunteer, can still be competitive though will be better reflected in an EPR/OPR.

It is disingenuous to say that awarding someone a medal that might not deserve one doesn't have any tangible impact beyond prestige.

Summoner101:Dracolich: Medals, titles, honor, and other forms of empty accolades work well because they're cheap. Don't worry veterans, your medal is worth just as much as theirs. In the end, all of these things are just intended to be ways to confer social respect without others having to know anything personal. This means that people are intended to judge you in a positive way based on almost no information. There's a lot wrong with that thought process. It's the same one that brought us "Sandwich Artist" and "Senior Correspondent."

Which is untrue. While in the military, medals, and titles when you go progress higher in rank, have a tangible impact when competing for promotion, special duties, and education opportunities. My background is USAF, so medals, at least those that count for points, are directly tied in to testing. Other decorations, such as humanitarian/volunteer, can still be competitive though will be better reflected in an EPR/OPR.

It is disingenuous to say that awarding someone a medal that might not deserve one doesn't have any tangible impact beyond prestige.

So it's assigned value by an internal arbitrary system. Yeah, that doesn't sound like bull shiat intended to replace actual reward. It's not like this isn't a well-studied HR trick. From an outside perspective it looks like people are doing astounding things for their country and we're rewarding them with as close to nothing as they'll accept.

It's about having enough candy and sparklies for the droolers they will trick into drone-striking American Citizens on US soil with Hellfire missiles for failing to pay enough taxes on their marijuana, or collecting too many black rifles, or having too many members of their church.

Bribes for patsys being used to strike against "prohibited persons" and other political enemies on US soil.

Lsherm:namatad: Lsherm: I don't think it should be above a Bronze Star, but I can see where being a drone pilot would require more than enough discipline and talent to be crucial to a military operation. Some medal is probably deserved.

But yeah, not as much as one that requires your ass to be available as a target. Technically, though, they are handing out Bronze Stars to people who aren't in any real danger of being hit in the first place.

this crap has been going on since vietnam.keep in mind that this new medal will rank above a bronze star, which is above a purple heart.Purple hearts require you to get injured.but this new award you get while sleeping at home at nights (or when off duty?)yah, farkEM

Can they give you a Purple Heart for injury that isn't directly combat related? My dad has one from Vietnam, but if his story is correct, he was flying Mohawk during a "photograph" flight and they were hit by ground fire when flying low. He never got hit by a bullet or ordinance, but he was subsequently injured on the same flight when trying to land.

Maybe he's embellished the story a bit for my mother to keep her from worrying, but the way he tells it he got to spend two months recovering from a broken ankle he probably gave himself while landing the plane. Says he got a week in Germany out of it (my mother confirms this - they were there together), but they sent him back.

My uncle was working in a REMF motorpool in Vietnam. He got "injured" while wrenching on a jeep. His CO offered to get him a purple heart./he declined the offer

Another issue that surfaced with PTSD in these guys that caught the Air Force by surprise was how they lived. Wake up next to wife, have breakfast with the family, take the kids to school, drive to base sit in a console, sling a Hellfire with a TV camera into a group of guys standing under a tree half a world away, get back in the car and home in time for a nice dinner with the wife and kids.

Meanwhile the guys driving Bones out of Guam get some depressurization time with their Brothers in Arms at the O-club after a mission where they did pretty much the same thing. I haven't heard much about the issue as of late but I do know a couple of Bone pilots at Dyess...next I talk to one I'll ask about the issue.

modesto:However. When we rolled in and deposed the government there, odious as it was, we became responsible fot the outcome.

BS.

That is like saying we are responsible for any unrest in the future of Egypt since we pressured Murbarak to step down. Or that we are responsible for civilian deaths or atrocities in Libya in the future because we helped take down quaddafi.

It is also like saying the world has no responsibility for sitting by when shiat was going down in Sudan and Darfur.

modesto:How many bombings of civilian targets were there in Afghanistan prior to the US invasion? I don't know the answer to that question, but I bet it is a lot fewer than the last 10 years.

This argument is very similiar to ones that are used for US to support striong arm dictators. I really don't think you have thought this al the way through.

modesto:And hey, if you don't like the example of America's longest war, remember Iraq? I know that's all ancient history now since we failed, the money stopped flowing, and so we cut and ran, but if you could ask the over 100,000 civillians killed in that debacle, I bet they wouldn't be as quick as you to relieve us of responsibility for the consequences of our actions

So you are supporting strong arm dictators?

The fact is that they are responsible for blowing each other up. It is a bit racist to think they aren't capable of self contol or self governance, and that once a group intervenes that they are responsible for every group afterwards.

Lsherm:namatad: Lsherm: I don't think it should be above a Bronze Star, but I can see where being a drone pilot would require more than enough discipline and talent to be crucial to a military operation. Some medal is probably deserved.

But yeah, not as much as one that requires your ass to be available as a target. Technically, though, they are handing out Bronze Stars to people who aren't in any real danger of being hit in the first place.

this crap has been going on since vietnam.keep in mind that this new medal will rank above a bronze star, which is above a purple heart.Purple hearts require you to get injured.but this new award you get while sleeping at home at nights (or when off duty?)yah, farkEM

Can they give you a Purple Heart for injury that isn't directly combat related? My dad has one from Vietnam, but if his story is correct, he was flying Mohawk during a "photograph" flight and they were hit by ground fire when flying low. He never got hit by a bullet or ordinance, but he was subsequently injured on the same flight when trying to land.

Maybe he's embellished the story a bit for my mother to keep her from worrying, but the way he tells it he got to spend two months recovering from a broken ankle he probably gave himself while landing the plane. Says he got a week in Germany out of it (my mother confirms this - they were there together), but they sent him back.

They probably wrote it up as his injury was the result of enemy action or maybe the helicopter was damaged because of being fired upon, which resulted in a shiaty landing. Who knows allot of people get purple hearts for things that you'd be surprised about. My grandfather had 3. One from a bullet, one from shrapnel and then the last one was for a minor scratch when a Chinese shell exploded near by. My dad was riding on an APC that hit a land mine in Vietnam and got knock off of it and had allot of scratches on his arms and didn't get one.

modesto:hasty ambush: BarkingUnicorn: Popcorn Johnny: staplermofo: Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.

A higher % of people in the military have a college degree than found in the general population.

That's counting only survivors.

Better chance of surviving the military than the streets of Chicago:

Chicago Homicides Outnumber U.S. Troop Killings In Afghanistan

Unless you happen to be a civillian in an area where we either don't like someone or have taken responsibility for security and failed. As long as the troops are safe though, that's the important thing.

The only problem anyone seems to have with this is the ranking of the medal. I completely agree that the operators (I refuse to call them "pilots") deserve recognition. But to rank their award above a BSM (the "V" device is irrelevant to this argument, by the way) is an insult to the thousands of door-kickers from OIF and OEF who genuinely earned their medals.Also, someone mentioned that these drone operators receive flight pay...not exactly. They do receive incentive pay, but it's tied to the enlisted crewmember rates, not pilot rates.

When Bush flew to Omaha on 9/11, he went straight into the bunker. We know that, it was in the news.

What was NOT mentioned was that he likely shook the hands of the four gamers sitting in the Lazy-Boys that flew the three planes and Pentagon missile that day. A quick salute, called 'em "true Americans", and when he left the room - four pops, right into their brain-pans.

Dracolich:Summoner101: Dracolich: Medals, titles, honor, and other forms of empty accolades work well because they're cheap. Don't worry veterans, your medal is worth just as much as theirs. In the end, all of these things are just intended to be ways to confer social respect without others having to know anything personal. This means that people are intended to judge you in a positive way based on almost no information. There's a lot wrong with that thought process. It's the same one that brought us "Sandwich Artist" and "Senior Correspondent."

Which is untrue. While in the military, medals, and titles when you go progress higher in rank, have a tangible impact when competing for promotion, special duties, and education opportunities. My background is USAF, so medals, at least those that count for points, are directly tied in to testing. Other decorations, such as humanitarian/volunteer, can still be competitive though will be better reflected in an EPR/OPR.

It is disingenuous to say that awarding someone a medal that might not deserve one doesn't have any tangible impact beyond prestige.

So it's assigned value by an internal arbitrary system. Yeah, that doesn't sound like bull shiat intended to replace actual reward. It's not like this isn't a well-studied HR trick. From an outside perspective it looks like people are doing astounding things for their country and we're rewarding them with as close to nothing as they'll accept.

Which is why people that don't deserve medals shouldn't get them because it keeps the system from being as "arbitrary." People that do the work get rewarded. And it doesn't seem so much like BS when a single medal can make the difference between being promoted and not being promoted. But hey, if you're willing to vote for people that will support better pay and benefits for military members, I won't stop you.

liam76:modesto: However. When we rolled in and deposed the government there, odious as it was, we became responsible fot the outcome.

BS.

That is like saying we are responsible for any unrest in the future of Egypt since we pressured Murbarak to step down. Or that we are responsible for civilian deaths or atrocities in Libya in the future because we helped take down quaddafi.

It is also like saying the world has no responsibility for sitting by when shiat was going down in Sudan and Darfur.

modesto: How many bombings of civilian targets were there in Afghanistan prior to the US invasion? I don't know the answer to that question, but I bet it is a lot fewer than the last 10 years.

This argument is very similiar to ones that are used for US to support striong arm dictators. I really don't think you have thought this al the way through.

modesto: And hey, if you don't like the example of America's longest war, remember Iraq? I know that's all ancient history now since we failed, the money stopped flowing, and so we cut and ran, but if you could ask the over 100,000 civillians killed in that debacle, I bet they wouldn't be as quick as you to relieve us of responsibility for the consequences of our actions

So you are supporting strong arm dictators?

The fact is that they are responsible for blowing each other up. It is a bit racist to think they aren't capable of self contol or self governance, and that once a group intervenes that they are responsible for every group afterwards.

Again, this is not an either/or proposition. The people who perpetuate violence and the people who create the conditions for violence to thrive are both accountable. I know bushian neoconism allows for only black and white, 0 or 1 morality, but a little nuance is useful here. You really don't think the term "Coalition Provisional Authority" carried with it any responsibility to protect people?

There is actually a third option, aside from deciding on regime change across the world or supporting dictators, which is to mind our own farking business. We are not directly responsible for the outcome of post-Mubarak Egypt, but we are responsible for the outcomes of the $1.25 billion that we give the army and police annually (to turn around and buy our weaponry and equipment, by the way). The Egyptian people ask a valid question, it seems to me, when wondering why it is America's role to give Egypt money to buy the (american) tear gas that is used on the streets. The hell business is it of ours?

If we had shown, since WWII, that we are at all capable of affecting positive change in a place, then I would be in favor of the kind of humanitarian intervention that you seem to support. But we haven't , and we don't.

Oh and I know the American public just weeps daily for the people of Syria, Darfur (which is in Sudan, by the way), South Kordofan, and all the other places where people are getting killed but we have no strategic interest. Please.

Dracolich:Medals, titles, honor, and other forms of empty accolades work well because they're cheap. Don't worry veterans, your medal is worth just as much as theirs. In the end, all of these things are just intended to be ways to confer social respect without others having to know anything personal. This means that people are intended to judge you in a positive way based on almost no information. There's a lot wrong with that thought process. It's the same one that brought us "Sandwich Artist" and "Senior Correspondent."

modesto:Again, this is not an either/or proposition. The people who perpetuate violence and the people who create the conditions for violence to thrive are both accountable

Unless you licve in a cave and taker no part in international trade you have a hand in creatingt he conditions that make violence "thrive".

modesto:You really don't think the term "Coalition Provisional Authority" carried with it any responsibility to protect people?

If you are a cop are you responsible because a town who was hiding a nut decided to blow up peopel inthe town?

There is only so much you can do and when peopel see blowing themselvs/civilians up as an admirabel goal, there is nothing you can do.

modesto:There is actually a third option, aside from deciding on regime change across the world or supporting dictators, which is to mind our own farking business.

So sitting out on Sudan and Darfur was the right move to you?

We should have stayed out of Libya?

modesto:If we had shown, since WWII, that we are at all capable of affecting positive change in a place, then I would be in favor of the kind of humanitarian intervention that you seem to support. But we haven't , and we don't.

I think Iraq was a mistake. Don't confuse me saying we aren't to blame for all civilian death there is a support for our being there.

modesto:Oh and I know the American public just weeps daily for the people of Syria, Darfur (which is in Sudan, by the way), South Kordofan, and all the other places where people are getting killed but we have no strategic interest.

I know you certainly don;t weep for them as you say we have no business being there.

As for strategic interest, you are very very wrong. You just aren' asking who has strategic interests there.

Being a combat vet I can kind of see the point. If you're stationed stateside you don't qualify for the Bronze - even if you were running combat missions that saved lives. If they changed the rules and allowed the Bronze to people stateside, then there would be a lot of people staying stateside and using their writing skills to issue each other ribbons. (Historically, at the tail end of combat operations guys that stayed back in the states would try to find a reason to fly to the "combat" zone during the last couple days to get a ribbon, combat patch or brownie points for the VA - get there while it's safe, yet still be able to say they were in combat.)

Different units have different internals rules as well. When I was with the 82d they didn't give out many ribbons; they would award arcoms, (or nothing at all), while the non-airborne guys would get bronze for basically the same thing. When I went to another unit my second tour they tended to pass them out for a job well done - I wasn't used to that and almost felt guilty for accepting. (My arcom w/oakleaf from the 82d carried a lot of weight, but only to those that knew what it took to get them.)

This stuff might be automated now, it wasn't when I was in. People have to do the paperwork for ribbons. The closer you are to command, the closer you are to the people that write the recommendations. This makes for a lot of highly decorated clerks.

The rule of thumb for the minimum used to be:

Bronze - you're in a combat zone doing your job.

Bronze w/V - you're in a combat zone doing your job with bullets flying around in the distance. You might not have been shot at - but you could have been.

Silver - you're in a combat zone while the shiat is going down.

Silver w/V - the shiat is going down and you not only keep your cool while the bullets are whizzing by, but actually jump into the line of fire to get the job done.

Medal of Honor - do your job, plus the job of most of the guys around you, even if you'll probably die doing it.

This is just the rule of thumb for the minimum. Someone might get a Bronze for something that might have qualified for a Silver, depending on who is writing the recommendation. There's an award higher than the MoH - unfortunately, it's called the death certificate. It's the only award they pass out too many times.