In the first one, the answer is always, "If you can't give me a job description, I'm not going to waste our time ((translation: "my time" - I don't give a flying (bad word) about your time)) by coming for an interview." No exceptions.

And in the last case, we all know that the best job he never had would have lasted less time than the interview, and it would have been unpaid. I think you all know what I mean, and if you don't, you are a WTF yourself.

The Nerve2010-07-22 09:18

Not only did she not get the job, but we had a very stern word with Human Resources that, in future, we won't interview anyone we deem unsuitable.

But you forgot to finish the story.

"Human Resources later stopped by and told us we WOULD be hiring the CEO's daughter."

Anon2010-07-22 09:20

Something is missing from the 2nd one. I was expecting it to turn out that the candidate was the HR directors wife/mistress/daughter/niece/third cousin twice removed. There must be some reason the HR director was so adamant that they be interviewed.

Wow- she hosted Facebook and Google on her home computer for a period?!

>They had installed Visual Studio and SQL Server's management tools, but there was no indication as to where a SQL Server database was located.

Ummm -- SQL Server express? Or was this VS Express W/O SQL Server? Or had they uninstalled SQL Server.

akatherder2010-07-22 09:29

For the first story, I would never get that far into the process with someone who can't/won't answer my questions. In this economy, you might have to give a little bit but not that much.

Second story, you keep the interviewee in the room and call the HR person to sit in on the interview and conclude it for you. Bonus points if this further aggravates the interviewee.

Third story, give the president an invoice for wasting your time.

Vechni2010-07-22 09:38

teh second story was my favorite.

edit: oh shit i just lol'd. tier 3 internets explorer

kittyJ2010-07-22 09:39

Hmm, really not getting the last one - if I was going to demo something like this I'd just create a new web app and then a new SQL database mdf file in the App_Data folder and off I'd go.

Yuval2010-07-22 09:40

I think "internets explorer" is near priceless.

Typo: I explained teh scenario to the president

pitchingchris2010-07-22 09:40

akatherder:

Third story, give the president an invoice for wasting your time.

Surely - he just wanted the work done so he didn't have to hire someone capable to do the work. Also means he didn't already have someone capable either..

vt_mruhlin2010-07-22 09:43

Third guy has never heard of SQLite?

Peter2010-07-22 09:45

It was Krishna from ACME COMMERCE. "Very nice résumé," she said

Krishna was a woman? That must have been a bit disconcerting, rather like finding yourself talking to a woman called Zeus or Odin. Or, for that matter, a man called Parvati or Hera.

Quies2010-07-22 09:45

You forget that the powers that be (HR) had spent time finding this candidate that so perfectly fits your stated requirements. That and the candidate only asked for half the minimum stated salary for the job. Thus allowing HR to collect a bonus for saving money, standard policy in two companies I no longer work for.

cynical cynic2010-07-22 09:46

Steve The Cynic:

And in the last case, we all know that the best job he never had would have lasted less time than the interview, and it would have been unpaid. I think you all know what I mean, and if you don't, you are a WTF yourself.

Are you just assuming Phil M never had the kind of job you are hinting at, or did he tell you?

Bosshog2010-07-22 09:47

Just do it in XML and tell him it's a database!

Nathan6162010-07-22 09:49

3rd story: Commenters seem to be down on the guy for not installing some kind of database himself - but didn't he say that they wouldn't let him do that?

That boss was obviously trying to get work done for free - there was no job.

Shyster2010-07-22 09:56

Anon:

Something is missing from the 2nd one. I was expecting it to turn out that the candidate was the HR directors wife/mistress/daughter/niece/third cousin twice removed. There must be some reason the HR director was so adamant that they be interviewed.

My guess: Someone was threatening a lawsuit for discriminatory hiring or something like that, so they brought her in so they could at least say, "look we interview such people." (However, I don't think ADA really requires you to interview let along hire flaming numbskills.)

CAPTCHA: nulla - The amount of actually experience this person had.

operagost2010-07-22 09:56

Anon:

Something is missing from the 2nd one. I was expecting it to turn out that the candidate was the HR directors wife/mistress/daughter/niece/third cousin twice removed. There must be some reason the HR director was so adamant that they be interviewed.

Affirmative action.

Mr. TA2010-07-22 09:56

The real WTF is the support team's inability to tell HR to go where they belong upfront. "Not wanting to start any fights" = coward and pussy and idiotic and the real WTF.

As to the candidate... world is a funny place :)

Call me Johnny2010-07-22 09:58

Peter:

It was Krishna from ACME COMMERCE. "Very nice résumé," she said

Krishna was a woman? That must have been a bit disconcerting, rather like finding yourself talking to a woman called Zeus or Odin. Or, for that matter, a man called Parvati or Hera.

Or a boy named Sue.

CAPTCHA: Causa - It's causa a name like Sue that I got picked on as a boy.

Amar2010-07-22 10:08

May be her name was Krishnapriya or Krishnaveni. Krishna itself is a female name in some parts of India - where the real Krishna is called Krishnan.

Cbuttius2010-07-22 10:22

kittyJ:

Hmm, really not getting the last one - if I was going to demo something like this I'd just create a new web app and then a new SQL database mdf file in the App_Data folder and off I'd go.

You're hired!

Anonymous2010-07-22 10:32

I have to say I quite enjoy interviewing idiots. Whenever we have a hiring round and start receiving resumes I always choose one or two of the "no-hopers" to come in for interview in addition to the real candidates, just to lighten things up. It can be pretty intense interviewing for senior technical positions, especially if you have to do it all day for a week solid. It's a lot easier if you intersperse the real candidates with the odd joker - you can forget about the technical discussions and just laugh at a hopelessly underskilled moron for half an hour. It's cathartic.

Some of the other folks in my office think this is a bit mean but as I explain to them, I don't feel bad about wasting the candidate's time because they wasted my time by applying for a job that they were woefully underqualified for.

some guy2010-07-22 10:34

The word 'Krishna' means 'dark' or 'black' and was commonly used to describe a dark complexion.

The word itself has no gender. There are many such 'unisex' sanskrit words that are used as names such as Surya and Kiran.

airdrik2010-07-22 10:34

Ronald M:

>They had installed Visual Studio and SQL Server's management tools, but there was no indication as to where a SQL Server database was located.

Ummm -- SQL Server express? Or was this VS Express W/O SQL Server? Or had they uninstalled SQL Server.

TRWTF on the last one is that the interviewee required the database backend to be fully accessible before he even started throwing anything together for the web front end (and as the database was not accessible, just throw together a quick-and-easy 'backend': e.g. xml, text file, SQLite, etc. to get it working). OTOH, the interviewer should have instead pulled in one of the developers and had the interviewee write up most of the stuff on a white/black board rather than putting him on a computer and told 'go'. That way they could audit any quirks that the guy throws into his code (like having the web frontend do direct sql queries rather than calling a separate library for database access).

pallen2010-07-22 10:36

Joshua Knarr: "I'd like to land the Command Center Administrator job."
Developer: "Unaccepted on landing zone."

boog2010-07-22 10:42

The second one is strange, even from an "affirmative action" perspective.

When I worked for the state, HR never required you to interview candidates that weren't suitable. However, you did have to document reasons justifying your decision not to interview (or if after interviewing, reasons for your decision to offer or not). But I guess "affirmative action" just means different things in different offices.

I do think it would be easy to justify a decision not to interview this person.

Peter2010-07-22 10:42

Amar:

May be her name was Krishnapriya or Krishnaveni. Krishna itself is a female name in some parts of India - where the real Krishna is called Krishnan.

Ah, thank you. I didn't know that. Live and learn!

Some Wonk2010-07-22 10:45

<troll>But...XML IS a database, isn't it?</troll>

Steve2010-07-22 10:47

Some Wonk:

<troll>But...XML IS a database, isn't it?</troll>

Of sorts, yes. Not sure what the troll tags were for, your basic assertion is accurate. A piece of paper can be a database, after all.

charles2010-07-22 10:48

TRWTF is that no one has mentioned Bob Vila yet.

CAPTCHA - oppeto - a contrarian puppet maker?

Pop ulus2010-07-22 10:51

No, that isn't Affirmative Action. At all. Read some Tim Wise before you make an ass out of yourself again.

Since the WTF was the fact that there was no job description, I think we have to assume that's a different job.

davedavenotdavemaybedave2010-07-22 11:27

Whilst it's a bit of a WTF that ACME Commerce didn't have a job description to hand, it's more of a WTF that the applicant didn't just google it. A command centre is a well-known term for a central live status monitoring facility. http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/services/prosupport/gcc?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz

It's quite possible this wasn't even an IT position - they may have wanted a high-level PA, not a sysadmin.

Of sorts, yes. Not sure what the troll tags were for, your basic assertion is accurate. A piece of paper can be a database, after all.

There are people (some right here on TDWTF) who insist that the word "database" has only one definition: an ATOM-compliant relational database management system.

Those people are generally no fun at parties.

anon2010-07-22 11:34

friedo:

Steve:

Some Wonk:

<troll>But...XML IS a database, isn't it?</troll>

Of sorts, yes. Not sure what the troll tags were for, your basic assertion is accurate. A piece of paper can be a database, after all.

There are people (some right here on TDWTF) who insist that the word "database" has only one definition: an ATOM-compliant relational database management system.

Those people are generally no fun at parties.

Actually, I would claim that anyone who has an opinion on what is or is not a database and likes to discuss that opinion is generally no fun at parties.

kittyJ2010-07-22 11:35

The true WTF is that the guy was asked to demo a solution to a specific web development problem, i.e. data driven menus, but everyone concerned got caught up worrying about where the data was to come from. It doesn't really matter as long as it comes from somewhere.

CoderDan2010-07-22 11:40

Pop ulus:

No, that isn't Affirmative Action. At all. Read some Tim Wise before you make an ass out of yourself again.

Especially since race was never mentioned, nor can it be implied or assumed by the story. Reminds me of a WTF I'll post one of these days.

Captcha: erat ... the mountain where Noah left his ark

fasterthanilook2010-07-22 11:42

Story 3: Sounds like a good place for an analogy the interviewer could actually understand... "This test is to see how well I use the tools of my trade. In effect, you have sat me down in front of a pile of scrap wood and asked me to build a box - with no hammer, no nails, no tools of any kind. Not a good way to see how well I use tools, is it?"

CAPTCHA: damnum (and the horses they rode in on?)

neminem2010-07-22 11:44

Man, command center administration would be a terrible job... I mean, sure, it's gotta be important, but they only make one thing, and it's a boring thing! Plus, it's like a zerg magnet in a rush.

Marc B2010-07-22 11:47

I think the company in story #1 should hire the candidate in story #3. It's a perfect fit!

Batman2010-07-22 11:51

Ronald M:

>They had installed Visual Studio and SQL Server's management tools, but there was no indication as to where a SQL Server database was located.

Ummm -- SQL Server express? Or was this VS Express W/O SQL Server? Or had they uninstalled SQL Server.

It's possible the story predates SQL Server Express (i.e., the MSDE days). Sure, he could have installed MSDE or the trial of SQL Server 2000 or something but maybe he thought it was bad form (or, depending on how the receptionist's PC is configured, impossible) to just go installing things willy nilly.

fennec2010-07-22 12:00

Mr. TA:

The real WTF is the support team's inability to tell HR to go where they belong upfront. "Not wanting to start any fights" = coward and pussy and idiotic and the real WTF.

Some people actually want to get things done at their jobs, and realize that starting a bunch of fights over every thing someone is doing wrong isn't very conducive to that.

Of sorts, yes. Not sure what the troll tags were for, your basic assertion is accurate. A piece of paper can be a database, after all.

There are people (some right here on TDWTF) who insist that the word "database" has only one definition: an ATOM-compliant relational database management system.

Those people are generally no fun at parties.

What does atom mean? Obviously you didn't mean ACID or else you would have said so, right?

CAPTCHA:populus -- as in populous?

chron32010-07-22 12:11

Ronald M:

>
Wow- she hosted Facebook and Google on her home computer for a period?!

No, no, you missed the obvious...

Wow- she hosted Facebook and Google on her home computer during her period?!

Joe2010-07-22 12:19

Cbuttius:

kittyJ:

Hmm, really not getting the last one - if I was going to demo something like this I'd just create a new web app and then a new SQL database mdf file in the App_Data folder and off I'd go.

You're hired!

More accurately: Leave your source code. We'll review it (read: immediately start using it in production), and get back to you (read: thanks for solving our problem -- don't expect to hear from us ever again).

Sabre2010-07-22 12:24

fasterthanilook:

Story 3: Sounds like a good place for an analogy the interviewer could actually understand... "This test is to see how well I use the tools of my trade. In effect, you have sat me down in front of a pile of scrap wood and asked me to build a box - with no hammer, no nails, no tools of any kind. Not a good way to see how well I use tools, is it?"

I disagree. He was given the materials to build the box. He just wasn't given the specifications of what would go into the box or the location of those items. But that shouldn't matter when building a box; you can still build a box without knowing what will go into it. It might not be the right box when the time comes to actually put things into it, but it is a box nonetheless.

He could have built the menu and had it give an error when no database was found. In fact, he could have even written a SQL script that will build the objects he expects to be present. Then tell the boss "It's done, but you need to set up a database to run it."

dtfhg2010-07-22 12:35

it's quite obvious they wanted him to program his own database engine to. I mean why pay for the license for MSSQL?

brian j. parker2010-07-22 12:35

The scenario I imagine for #2 is that the candidate was already on "stress leave" or unemployment and collecting money from the company, so someone in HR was feeling the heat to place her anywhere. The candidate, on the other hand, had to make some show of attempting to get a new job.

I'm glad unemployment exists for those who catch an unlucky break, but there will always be people who try to abuse any system.

Jay2010-07-22 12:51

CoderDan:

Pop ulus:

No, that isn't Affirmative Action. At all. Read some Tim Wise before you make an ass out of yourself again.

Especially since race was never mentioned, nor can it be implied or assumed by the story. Reminds me of a WTF I'll post one of these days.

Affirmative action does not just apply to racial minorities. It also applies to women and people with disabilities and probably other categories that I'm forgetting.

I'm still holding out for getting "balding old Norwegian men" added as a category.

Jay2010-07-22 12:56

On #1, it wouldn't particularly bother me if the person who called to set up an interview didn't know anything about the job. Maybe he or she is a receptionist or an HR person or in general someone who was just told, "Call the people on this list and set up interviews".

Now, when he arrived for the interview and the person who was supposed to interview him couldn't be found, that was a problem. If I was in that position and the company later called me back and apologized for the mix-up and arranged another interview, I probably wouldn't write them off for that but I'd certainly take their disorganization into consideration.

Paul2010-07-22 13:00

"I get paid. If you expect me to deal with all that computer shit, I'll go off on stress leave and sue you."

Look, instead of agonizing our way through this little by little, why don't we as a society just go for broke and get it over with:

1. Everybody gets a government check for ten million dollars. Doesn't matter who you are or what you do. Equality uber alles.

2. If anybody still wants a job after #1, you're entitled to work anyplace you like and they have to pay you exactly the same amount as everybody else. Your "job" will consist of socializing all day or watching youtube or whatever else you feel like doing. Everybody must be nice to you, unless you smile at a cute girl/hunky guy. Nobody will have a boss.

Oh yes, and...

3. Every penny you make, no matter how, will be taxed and the country will still go broke. But who cares, we'll all be rich and lazy!

Jay2010-07-22 13:05

Hey, on the serious side, when a company asks you very early in the discussion how much you expect to be paid, what do you say?

Any time I've worked with an employment agency they've always told me not to give a straight answer to that question. But I wonder. I mean, if the company expects to pay someone, whatever, $40,000 a year, and you are looking for $50,000, I'd think they'd be willing to talk to you and see if you're good enough to be worth pushing their budget. But if you wouldn't take a job for less than $100,000 and there's no way they're going to pay that much, isn't it just wasting both of your time to go through the whole interview process? Unless there's some reason to believe that they could be so impressed by your abilities that they will pay way more than they planned, or that you will be so impressed with how much fun this job sounds like that you will be willing to work for much less than you originally planned, what's the point?

On the flip side, if they are expecting to pay $100,000 and you say you will work for $20,000 ... well, if I was the interviewer in that case, I would be wondering if you are just a great bargain for some reason -- like maybe you're living off your billionaire uncle's trust fund and so you really don't need the money or something -- or if someone willing to work for that little must really not be qualified for the job.

I've only once had such a situation come up where I was on the hiring side: We were hiring a software tester, and someone applied who asked for half what we were willing to pay. We interviewed him and he sounded quite capable, so my boss quietly told him what number to change the expected salary before turning the form in to HR. (We ultimately hired him and he turned out to be one of the best testers we ever had.)

Sue2010-07-22 13:06

Anon:

Something is missing from the 2nd one. I was expecting it to turn out that the candidate was the HR directors wife/mistress/daughter/niece/third cousin twice removed. There must be some reason the HR director was so adamant that they be interviewed.

Because she threatened to sue if she wasn't interviewed. And the HR department lives and breathes for one reason and one reason only: to avoid being sued.

Buffled2010-07-22 13:07

Pop ulus:

No, that isn't Affirmative Action. At all. Read some Tim Wise before you make an ass out of yourself again.

Tim Wise is the worst kind of racist - the kind that holds his own race in contempt.

Obama2010-07-22 13:07

That's what we are trying to do here in the US!

Adam2010-07-22 13:17

friedo:

There are people (some right here on TDWTF) who insist that the word "database" has only one definition: an ATOM-compliant relational database management system.

Those people are generally no fun at parties.

There are some people who claim that a "party" can be any loosely structured gathering of casual associates for mutual merriment, but they clearly haven't studied the subject as thoroughly as I have. According to my research (all online from my mom's basement of course) a true party should include all of the following elements:

If absolutely necessary for cost reduction, the first four items may be omitted.

If any other experts have additional material, please include a verifiable citation to a reputable source.

friedo2010-07-22 13:26

TRWTF is me. :(

friedo2010-07-22 13:27

me:

friedo:

Steve:

Some Wonk:

<troll>But...XML IS a database, isn't it?</troll>

Of sorts, yes. Not sure what the troll tags were for, your basic assertion is accurate. A piece of paper can be a database, after all.

There are people (some right here on TDWTF) who insist that the word "database" has only one definition: an ATOM-compliant relational database management system.

Those people are generally no fun at parties.

What does atom mean? Obviously you didn't mean ACID or else you would have said so, right?

CAPTCHA:populus -- as in populous?

TRWTF is me. :(

guest2010-07-22 13:28

Anon:

Something is missing from the 2nd one. I was expecting it to turn out that the candidate was the HR directors wife/mistress/daughter/niece/third cousin twice removed. There must be some reason the HR director was so adamant that they be interviewed.

I thought that they might have to interview her just to make it look like they were an equal opportunity employer. Maybe they hadn't interviewed enough females lately and they wanted to get that number up.

Anonymous2010-07-22 13:46

"An SQL database", not "A SQL database".

Peter2010-07-22 13:55

anon:

Actually, I would claim that anyone who has an opinion on what is or is not a database and likes to discuss that opinion is generally no fun at parties.

Oh, I don't know about that. Of course, the sort of fun that you can have with those people is akin to the sort of fun you can have poking an ill-tempered dog with a stick. Not something that I enjoy, you understand, but judging by posters on this very website, I may be in a minority.

Machtyn2010-07-22 14:11

Anonymous:

"An SQL database", not "A SQL database".

Depends on how you pronounce it: S-Q-L or "sequel".

noland2010-07-22 14:17

Some Wonk:

<troll>But...XML IS a database, isn't it?</troll>

<obligatory>But not on an embedded system.</obligatory>

The Nerve2010-07-22 14:18

Jay:

CoderDan:

Pop ulus:

No, that isn't Affirmative Action. At all. Read some Tim Wise before you make an ass out of yourself again.

Especially since race was never mentioned, nor can it be implied or assumed by the story. Reminds me of a WTF I'll post one of these days.

Affirmative action does not just apply to racial minorities. It also applies to women and people with disabilities and probably other categories that I'm forgetting.

I'm still holding out for getting "balding old Norwegian men" added as a category.

Right, affirmative action is for women and other "minorities."

Knux22010-07-22 14:20

Adam:

friedo:

There are people (some right here on TDWTF) who insist that the word "database" has only one definition: an ATOM-compliant relational database management system.

Those people are generally no fun at parties.

There are some people who claim that a "party" can be any loosely structured gathering of casual associates for mutual merriment, but they clearly haven't studied the subject as thoroughly as I have. According to my research (all online from my mom's basement of course) a true party should include all of the following elements:

More accurately: Leave your source code. We'll review it (read: immediately start using it in production), and get back to you (read: thanks for solving our problem -- don't expect to hear from us ever again).

To be even more accurate, let's skip forward about half an hour to the next candidate who came in to interview for the same job...

"So, here is some sample code for a web site with a menu. How would you extend this to provide these two features?"

And then the next afternoon, when it's time for another interview...

"I have prepared a simple application with some obvious bugs. How many can you find and how would you fix them?"

Because actually paying consultants is something that other people do.

dnm2010-07-22 15:33

Peter:

It was Krishna from ACME COMMERCE. "Very nice résumé," she said

Krishna was a woman? That must have been a bit disconcerting, rather like finding yourself talking to a woman called Zeus or Odin. Or, for that matter, a man called Parvati or Hera.

Krishna can be a woman

operagost2010-07-22 15:45

Pop ulus:

No, that isn't Affirmative Action. At all. Read some Tim Wise before you make an ass out of yourself again.

Try thinking for yourself before you level personal attacks at someone you don't know, you presumptive cretin.

Misuse of affirmative action often results in bringing in woefully under qualified (in this example, quite an understatement) candidates in order to satisfy a policy, usually a racial, nationality, or gender quota.

Notice that we don't know whether the candidate fell into any of these categories, except possibly the last being that women are still generally under represented in IT.

operagost2010-07-22 15:49

And if anyone else flames me on this stupid topic, I'm going on stress leave and GETTIN' PAID.

ell0bo2010-07-22 15:51

I work there... nice place. But where this command center is... I have no idea. I am now going to explore.

Anon2010-07-22 15:59

Machtyn:

Anonymous:

"An SQL database", not "A SQL database".

Depends on how you pronounce it: S-Q-L or "sequel".

Right, it's a sequel database or an es-que-el database.

Ilya Ehrenburg2010-07-22 16:02

operagost:

And if anyone else flames me on this stupid topic, I'm going on stress leave and GETTIN' PAID.

For 40%, I'm going to flame.

somename2010-07-22 16:07

Anon:

Machtyn:

Anonymous:

"An SQL database", not "A SQL database".

Depends on how you pronounce it: S-Q-L or "sequel".

Right, it's a sequel database or an es-que-el database.

but sequel databases are never as good as the first one...

AT2010-07-22 16:09

CoderDan:

Pop ulus:

No, that isn't Affirmative Action. At all. Read some Tim Wise before you make an ass out of yourself again.

Especially since race was never mentioned, nor can it be implied or assumed by the story. Reminds me of a WTF I'll post one of these days.

Captcha: erat ... the mountain where Noah left his ark

Almost certainly affirmative action. You must have no idea how sensitive US companies are about the fact that they can't interview and hire enough black candidates in technical positions. And justifiably so since there are more than a few race-mongering shakedown artists trolling for potential discrimination lawsuits based on little more than worker vs general population racial composition. The more than 100 developer interviews I've conducted over the past 14 years included exactly ONE black candidate (who I hired because he was damn good). You can put whatever explanation you want on those stats, but they make the HR departments of hyper-race conscious US companies very uneasy.

blunder2010-07-22 16:10

Sabre:

I disagree. He was given the materials to build the box. He just wasn't given the specifications of what would go into the box or the location of those items. But that shouldn't matter when building a box; you can still build a box without knowing what will go into it. It might not be the right box when the time comes to actually put things into it, but it is a box nonetheless.

He could have built the menu and had it give an error when no database was found. In fact, he could have even written a SQL script that will build the objects he expects to be present. Then tell the boss "It's done, but you need to set up a database to run it."

As it turns out, my company has a position open and we think you'd do great. Why don't you come down for an interview? Also if you have a couple of SQL Server CALs you wouldn't mind sparing, it might put us into the hiring mood, if you know what I mean.

jdw2010-07-22 16:41

Anonymous:

I have to say I quite enjoy interviewing idiots. Whenever we have a hiring round and start receiving resumes I always choose one or two of the "no-hopers" to come in for interview in addition to the real candidates, just to lighten things up. It can be pretty intense interviewing for senior technical positions, especially if you have to do it all day for a week solid. It's a lot easier if you intersperse the real candidates with the odd joker - you can forget about the technical discussions and just laugh at a hopelessly underskilled moron for half an hour. It's cathartic.

Some of the other folks in my office think this is a bit mean but as I explain to them, I don't feel bad about wasting the candidate's time because they wasted my time by applying for a job that they were woefully underqualified for.

For what it's worth, it's quite possible that some of these wasted your time by applying because of unemployment requirements. God knows I applied for jobs I wasn't even close to qualified for while I was unemployed last year.

BearGriz722010-07-22 17:04

*Ding* I was thinking the exact same thing!!

CoderDan2010-07-22 18:52

AT:

CoderDan:

Pop ulus:

No, that isn't Affirmative Action. At all. Read some Tim Wise before you make an ass out of yourself again.

Especially since race was never mentioned, nor can it be implied or assumed by the story. Reminds me of a WTF I'll post one of these days.

Captcha: erat ... the mountain where Noah left his ark

Almost certainly affirmative action. You must have no idea how sensitive US companies are about the fact that they can't interview and hire enough black candidates in technical positions. And justifiably so since there are more than a few race-mongering shakedown artists trolling for potential discrimination lawsuits based on little more than worker vs general population racial composition. The more than 100 developer interviews I've conducted over the past 14 years included exactly ONE black candidate (who I hired because he was damn good). You can put whatever explanation you want on those stats, but they make the HR departments of hyper-race conscious US companies very uneasy.

I stand by my original statement. How many think of AA and think of women or those with disabilities? Very few! So when someone says 'affirmative action', it is almost always to imply 'that [black|hispanic] person got the job because of their color'.

Am I wrong? In conducting 1,200+ interviews I would tend to say no. As for gender, there is a strong skewing of man vs. woman.

Captcha: illum -- Former Hobbit

sheldon2010-07-22 19:00

CoderDan:

I stand by my original statement. How many think of AA and think of women or those with disabilities? Very few!

So you call the guy an ass twice, the first time without even knowing what he meant, the second time despite him telling you exactly what he meant, just because for somebody else affirmative action means black/hispanic people? Wow, that a great way to combat stereotyping...

Veldan2010-07-22 19:37

Peter:

Amar:

May be her name was Krishnapriya or Krishnaveni. Krishna itself is a female name in some parts of India - where the real Krishna is called Krishnan.

Ah, thank you. I didn't know that. Live and learn!

<Joke> OH MY GOD! a humble person! on the daily WTF! Not some pretentious d**k who tries to argue the point well past the realm of their knowledge! </ Joke>

Seriously though, i think you're the first person I've seen on this site that was happy to be corrected. Go you! :D

Veldan2010-07-22 19:38

Steve:

Some Wonk:

<troll>But...XML IS a database, isn't it?</troll>

Of sorts, yes. Not sure what the troll tags were for, your basic assertion is accurate. A piece of paper can be a database, after all.

Don't feed the trolls.

Veldan2010-07-22 19:47

Paul:

"I get paid. If you expect me to deal with all that computer shit, I'll go off on stress leave and sue you."

Look, instead of agonizing our way through this little by little, why don't we as a society just go for broke and get it over with:

1. Everybody gets a government check for ten million dollars. Doesn't matter who you are or what you do. Equality uber alles.

2. If anybody still wants a job after #1, you're entitled to work anyplace you like and they have to pay you exactly the same amount as everybody else. Your "job" will consist of socializing all day or watching youtube or whatever else you feel like doing. Everybody must be nice to you, unless you smile at a cute girl/hunky guy. Nobody will have a boss.

Oh yes, and...

3. Every penny you make, no matter how, will be taxed and the country will still go broke. But who cares, we'll all be rich and lazy!

I love you.

WiredEarp2010-07-22 20:01

If thats the worst type of rascist, I must be even worse. I hold the entire HUMAN race in contempt.

To analyze your statement however, are yo saying even if your own race IS contemptible, its racist to state the fact? I don't think you have thought the implications of your post through fully.

Anon2010-07-22 20:01

Anon:

Machtyn:

Anonymous:

"An SQL database", not "A SQL database".

Depends on how you pronounce it: S-Q-L or "sequel".

Right, it's a sequel database or an es-que-el database.

You have to say it as if you were elongating the acronym.

A server query language database.
An server query language database.

Obviously "A" is correct.

Anon2010-07-22 20:03

Structured even....

eros - Two errors in one. Go me!

Callin2010-07-22 20:07

"internets explorer" would make me throw out a resume too.

Anon2010-07-22 20:07

CoderDan:

I stand by my original statement. How many think of AA and think of women or those with disabilities? Very few! So when someone says 'affirmative action', it is almost always to imply 'that [black|hispanic] person got the job because of their color'.

Am I wrong? In conducting 1,200+ interviews I would tend to say no. As for gender, there is a strong skewing of man vs. woman.

Captcha: illum -- Former Hobbit

Very Very wrong.
Most people think of AA as that whiny PITA crap we all have to deal with because not enough *insert non-middle class white male group here* aren't getting an equal opportunity.

The SCVs wouldn't last long against the Zerg. They needed a new Command Center Administrator. But the Zerg attacked, and their applicant never heard from them again.

Anon2010-07-22 22:25

Consultant Zero:

Anon:

You have to say it as if you were elongating the acronym.

A server query language database.
An server query language database.

Obviously "A" is correct.

Obviously, both are incorrect. Structured, not server.

Sorry guys, already beat you to the punch and corrected myself =P

jugis - biggest breasts of them all

Mike2010-07-22 22:28

vt_mruhlin:

Third guy has never heard of SQLite?

Even text files would have sufficed to demonstrate the concept.

David C2010-07-22 23:15

So, you download MySQL and use it for the database...

keith2010-07-22 23:23

RogerInHawaii:

Anon:

A server query language database.

I always thought SQL stood for Structured Query Language.

Correct, and the pre-trademark-lawsuit version, "Structured English QUEry Language" was properly known as SEQUEL.

Ben2010-07-23 04:20

Steve:

Some Wonk:

<troll>But...XML IS a database, isn't it?</troll>

Of sorts, yes. Not sure what the troll tags were for, your basic assertion is accurate. A piece of paper can be a database, after all.

No it's not. English isn't a database, though arguably a shopping list written in English could be considered one.

And you're also ignoring the difference between a database and a DBMS, which is like conflating a Word document and the Word application.

Matt Westwood2010-07-23 04:25

operagost:

Pop ulus:

No, that isn't Affirmative Action. At all. Read some Tim Wise before you make an ass out of yourself again.

Try thinking for yourself before you level personal attacks at someone you don't know, you presumptive cretin.

Misuse of affirmative action often results in bringing in woefully under qualified (in this example, quite an understatement) candidates in order to satisfy a policy, usually a racial, nationality, or gender quota.

Notice that we don't know whether the candidate fell into any of these categories, except possibly the last being that women are still generally under represented in IT.

"Incompetence" by Rob Grant is an interesting riff on this social trend. A thoroughly entertaining (although marginally implausible) read.

d2010-07-23 05:23

I hope the person in #2 dies tomorrow. Seriously. She represents so much of what's wrong with society right now.

Macho2010-07-23 06:21

d:

I hope the person in #2 dies tomorrow. Seriously. She represents so much of what's wrong with society right now.

Actually i wish YOU will die today.

Kiss me I'm Polish2010-07-23 06:57

There is only one internets explorer, and her name is Dora.

reader2010-07-23 07:23

Krishna is a common unisex name... so it wouldn't disconcert any Indian atleast.

Burpy2010-07-23 07:33

Ben:

Steve:

Some Wonk:

<troll>But...XML IS a database, isn't it?</troll>

Of sorts, yes. Not sure what the troll tags were for, your basic assertion is accurate. A piece of paper can be a database, after all.

No it's not. English isn't a database, though arguably a shopping list written in English could be considered one.

Oh, so the troll tag was just an anticipation

Steve2010-07-23 08:21

Burpy:

Ben:

Steve:

Some Wonk:

<troll>But...XML IS a database, isn't it?</troll>

Of sorts, yes. Not sure what the troll tags were for, your basic assertion is accurate. A piece of paper can be a database, after all.

No it's not. English isn't a database, though arguably a shopping list written in English could be considered one.

Oh, so the troll tag was just an anticipation

Exactly what I was thinking! Predictive troll tags, how do they work?

MegaByte2010-07-23 08:51

> Tier-3 Supporting (from Catherine Dunham)

That woman actually sounds like someone I'd manage to work with.

1. She is honest: Who'd bust their ass restoring shit?
2. She knows her shit: See above.
3. She knows you know shit so she dresses properly in order to display this very fact to me, thus she is smart and, see 3.

ERGO. I wanna work with her.

Moschops2010-07-23 09:22

"The real WTF is the support team's inability to tell HR to go where they belong upfront. "Not wanting to start any fights" = coward and pussy and idiotic and the real WTF. " - Mr. TA

Do you have a non-aspergic manager who can keep you from causing damage?

Anon2010-07-23 09:30

Anon:

Anon:

Machtyn:

Anonymous:

"An SQL database", not "A SQL database".

Depends on how you pronounce it: S-Q-L or "sequel".

Right, it's a sequel database or an es-que-el database.

You have to say it as if you were elongating the acronym.

A server query language database.
An server query language database.

Obviously "A" is correct.

No you don't (aside from the structured/server mix-up already mentioned several times). "A S-Q-L" is wrong, regardless of what the acronym elongates to.
It might be correct to write it that way, but it's never right to say it that way.

Brad2010-07-23 09:51

"I get paid. If you expect me to deal with all that [X] shit, I'll go off on stress leave and sue you."

Not a major wtf; the candidate just mistook the job for a union gig.

hmmm2010-07-23 11:44

Personally, I like number 3 the best. And I wonder if this was a one-time deal or if the manager makes a practice of this sort of thing. Seems like you could get quite a lot of free work (if piecemeal) by pulling in people for interview and assigning them small tasks that it would take your devs an hour or so to do. Combine that with free interns and you could really save some money in the most evil fashion possible.

Hell, in this economy you could even get some people to work for free while teasing them with the lure of a job a week or so down the road.

EricS2010-07-23 12:33

Just sign up for a $4 account with some SQL Server hosting system, like http://www.sqlservermart.com/ and set up the database there. The ability to improvise is important. Then again, you are definitely better off without that job.

CoderDan2010-07-23 13:00

sheldon:

CoderDan:

I stand by my original statement. How many think of AA and think of women or those with disabilities? Very few!

So you call the guy an ass twice, the first time without even knowing what he meant, the second time despite him telling you exactly what he meant, just because for somebody else affirmative action means black/hispanic people? Wow, that a great way to combat stereotyping...

How do you figure that I insulted anyone? I responded to someone saying "Must have been affirmative action". Those weren't my words, and I took exception to the blatant statement that being unqualified must mean they are an inferior race or gender.

Did I call anyone an ass? No, I responded because the characterization of inferiority based upon unrelated factors of race or gender. I am wrong for objecting to the stereotype?

captcha: dolor - What you get back from a five

CoderDan2010-07-23 13:03

Matt Westwood:

operagost:

Pop ulus:

No, that isn't Affirmative Action. At all. Read some Tim Wise before you make an ass out of yourself again.

Try thinking for yourself before you level personal attacks at someone you don't know, you presumptive cretin.

Misuse of affirmative action often results in bringing in woefully under qualified (in this example, quite an understatement) candidates in order to satisfy a policy, usually a racial, nationality, or gender quota.

Notice that we don't know whether the candidate fell into any of these categories, except possibly the last being that women are still generally under represented in IT.

"Incompetence" by Rob Grant is an interesting riff on this social trend. A thoroughly entertaining (although marginally implausible) read.

For all the affirmative action nuts out there. AA only comes into play when dealing with federal contracts above a certain dollar amount. In state or municipal requirements it varies. But as a general rule, you may hire whomever you choose. If you want a government contract then yes, there *may* be some rules for AA.

Since the job interview didn't state what type of company or contract then we can't logically assume that AA is in force. Can we?

Captch: gravis - old gamepad

Jay2010-07-23 13:34

CoderDan:

AT:

CoderDan:

Pop ulus:

No, that isn't Affirmative Action. At all. Read some Tim Wise before you make an ass out of yourself again.

Especially since race was never mentioned, nor can it be implied or assumed by the story. Reminds me of a WTF I'll post one of these days.

Almost certainly affirmative action. You must have no idea how sensitive US companies are about the fact that they can't interview and hire enough black candidates in technical positions. And justifiably so since there are more than a few race-mongering shakedown artists trolling for potential discrimination lawsuits based on little more than worker vs general population racial composition. The more than 100 developer interviews I've conducted over the past 14 years included exactly ONE black candidate (who I hired because he was damn good). You can put whatever explanation you want on those stats, but they make the HR departments of hyper-race conscious US companies very uneasy.

I stand by my original statement. How many think of AA and think of women or those with disabilities? Very few! So when someone says 'affirmative action', it is almost always to imply 'that [black|hispanic] person got the job because of their color'.

Am I wrong? In conducting 1,200+ interviews I would tend to say no. As for gender, there is a strong skewing of man vs. woman.

So let me see if I understand this last post. You admit that the original statement that you ridiculed was, in fact, accurate. But you "stand by" your criticism on the grounds that most people wouldn't immediately realize that it was, in fact, correct. So you insist that it is correct to say someone is wrong when he is, in fact, right, as long as "most people" would (incorrectly) think he was wrong. Or something like that.

I think if you asked the average American who was included under affirmative action, the vast majority would say "women and minorities". But even if 99% of the people don't know the right answer to a question, it's difficult to see how that makes the wrong answer right.

Jay2010-07-23 13:41

CoderDan:

For all the affirmative action nuts out there. AA only comes into play when dealing with federal contracts above a certain dollar amount. In state or municipal requirements it varies. But as a general rule, you may hire whomever you choose. If you want a government contract then yes, there *may* be some rules for AA.

Since the job interview didn't state what type of company or contract then we can't logically assume that AA is in force. Can we?

Umm, no. While the exact rules are different depending on just which law applies to a particular form of discrimination, in general anti-discrimination laws apply to all companies in the U.S. that have 15 or more employees.

http://www.eeoc.gov/employers/coverage_private.cfm

CoderDan2010-07-23 16:24

Jay:

CoderDan:

For all the affirmative action nuts out there. AA only comes into play when dealing with federal contracts above a certain dollar amount. In state or municipal requirements it varies. But as a general rule, you may hire whomever you choose. If you want a government contract then yes, there *may* be some rules for AA.

Since the job interview didn't state what type of company or contract then we can't logically assume that AA is in force. Can we?

Umm, no. While the exact rules are different depending on just which law applies to a particular form of discrimination, in general anti-discrimination laws apply to all companies in the U.S. that have 15 or more employees.

http://www.eeoc.gov/employers/coverage_private.cfm

N/A - I never mentioned discrimination, but rather quota based hiring given a race, gender or disability. The comment wasn't "Ohhh must be a company of 15" - but rather, an incompetent and petulant woman - "must be affirmative action" LOL

You guys can have your topic back.

CoderDan2010-07-23 16:28

Jay:

CoderDan:

AT:

CoderDan:

Pop ulus:

No, that isn't Affirmative Action. At all. Read some Tim Wise before you make an ass out of yourself again.

Especially since race was never mentioned, nor can it be implied or assumed by the story. Reminds me of a WTF I'll post one of these days.

Almost certainly affirmative action. You must have no idea how sensitive US companies are about the fact that they can't interview and hire enough black candidates in technical positions. And justifiably so since there are more than a few race-mongering shakedown artists trolling for potential discrimination lawsuits based on little more than worker vs general population racial composition. The more than 100 developer interviews I've conducted over the past 14 years included exactly ONE black candidate (who I hired because he was damn good). You can put whatever explanation you want on those stats, but they make the HR departments of hyper-race conscious US companies very uneasy.

I stand by my original statement. How many think of AA and think of women or those with disabilities? Very few! So when someone says 'affirmative action', it is almost always to imply 'that [black|hispanic] person got the job because of their color'.

Am I wrong? In conducting 1,200+ interviews I would tend to say no. As for gender, there is a strong skewing of man vs. woman.

So let me see if I understand this last post. You admit that the original statement that you ridiculed was, in fact, accurate. But you "stand by" your criticism on the grounds that most people wouldn't immediately realize that it was, in fact, correct. So you insist that it is correct to say someone is wrong when he is, in fact, right, as long as "most people" would (incorrectly) think he was wrong. Or something like that.

I think if you asked the average American who was included under affirmative action, the vast majority would say "women and minorities". But even if 99% of the people don't know the right answer to a question, it's difficult to see how that makes the wrong answer right.

LOL, no I did not admit that the original statement was accurate. Where do you get that from? I said that I stand by my argument, and that in general most people see AA as applicable to certain male minority groups.

Look, it's no wonder you guys have so many WTF's you can't seem to RTFM and get your specs FUBAR'd.

I am through with your ill contrived flames.

sheldon2010-07-23 16:31

CoderDan:

Did I call anyone an ass? No

Oh, you're right. I confused you with Pop ulus. Sorry about that.

CoderDan:

I responded to someone saying "Must have been affirmative action". Those weren't my words, and I took exception to the blatant statement that being unqualified must mean they are an inferior race or gender.

I don't think the original statement says that the only unqualified people are of inferior race or gender. Of course there are a lot of unqualified white males. But if they are that obviously unqualified, then, surprisingly, they are rarely invited for an interview. So what the original statement says is that if an obviously unqualified person is nevertheless brought in for an interview, that might be an attempt to promote better representation of a minority group.

TRWTF on the last one is that the interviewee required the database backend to be fully accessible before he even started throwing anything together for the web front end (and as the database was not accessible, just throw together a quick-and-easy 'backend': e.g. xml, text file, SQLite, etc. to get it working). OTOH, the interviewer should have instead pulled in one of the developers and had the interviewee write up most of the stuff on a white/black board rather than putting him on a computer and told 'go'. That way they could audit any quirks that the guy throws into his code (like having the web frontend do direct sql queries rather than calling a separate library for database access).[/quote]

Depends how ancient history this is referring to..? Visual Studio since 2005 has included SQL Server with any mode installation (you cannot even untogle it, have to specifically uninstall it).

Would have been worth mentioning that the tools were as ancient as VS 2003 in the story. Otherwise the SQL Server instance of .\SQLEXPRESS should have been there.

Kalle2010-07-23 16:53

... the quote in the above was "bit" broken.

Was just meant to reply that the 3rd story should have included the database with the Visual Studio as prior commentors pointed out. The comment stating that VS does not include database is inaccurate since the VS 2005 and later versions.

only me2010-07-23 16:55

Jay:

Hey, on the serious side, when a company asks you very early in the discussion how much you expect to be paid, what do you say?

Any time I've worked with an employment agency they've always told me not to give a straight answer to that question. But I wonder. I mean, if the company expects to pay someone, whatever, $40,000 a year, and you are looking for $50,000, I'd think they'd be willing to talk to you and see if you're good enough to be worth pushing their budget. But if you wouldn't take a job for less than $100,000 and there's no way they're going to pay that much, isn't it just wasting both of your time to go through the whole interview process? Unless there's some reason to believe that they could be so impressed by your abilities that they will pay way more than they planned, or that you will be so impressed with how much fun this job sounds like that you will be willing to work for much less than you originally planned, what's the point?

On the flip side, if they are expecting to pay $100,000 and you say you will work for $20,000 ... well, if I was the interviewer in that case, I would be wondering if you are just a great bargain for some reason -- like maybe you're living off your billionaire uncle's trust fund and so you really don't need the money or something -- or if someone willing to work for that little must really not be qualified for the job.

I've only once had such a situation come up where I was on the hiring side: We were hiring a software tester, and someone applied who asked for half what we were willing to pay. We interviewed him and he sounded quite capable, so my boss quietly told him what number to change the expected salary before turning the form in to HR. (We ultimately hired him and he turned out to be one of the best testers we ever had.)

But this wasn't a case of "what compensation do you want for doing job x" This was "what compensation do you want ? For doing what ? My salary ranges in accordance to my responsibilities and my tasks.
Will I have to manage people ? If so, how many ?
Will I be responsible for my own budget ? If so, how much ?
And so on.

jmroth2010-07-24 12:51

Really, why does the woman get punished for telling the truth? Also, I'm wondering why the guy is so astonished as to her response. Lots of people nowadays do exactly what the lady describes - without announcing it beforehand though.

Some Guy2010-07-25 17:56

operagost:

Misuse of affirmative action often results in bringing in woefully under qualified (in this example, quite an understatement) candidates in order to satisfy a policy, usually a racial, nationality, or gender quota.

And blatant bigotry has had a few peroblems, too.

Still, I'm not going to complain - there's few things funnier than a bunch of racist hilbillies howling about the terrible persecution they're suffering.

In the real world the harm caused by affirmative action is dwarfed by the harm caused by idiots, and if you take affirmative action away those idiots will just have to find another way to keep causing problems. Or, perhaps HR is staffed entirely with people so brilliant that they make Einstein look like the village idiot, and if we remvoe the obscenity of affirmative action then at last HR will be free to usher in a golden age of competence and achievement and corner offices for every developer.

Roger2010-07-26 01:49

Man these comments are turning so americans! Gald to be european...

jack2010-07-26 04:27

I figure life is a gift and I don’t intend on wasting it. You never know what hand you’re going to get dealt next. You learn to take life as it comes at you.

foo2010-07-26 04:39

Only in non Indo-European tongues and languages. Which means Dravidian languages and South India.

Krishna cannot be and is never ever a woman's name in North India.

Burpy2010-07-26 06:54

jack:

I figure life is a gift and I don’t intend on wasting it. You never know what hand you’re going to get dealt next. You learn to take life as it comes at you.

You'd better not take what comes at you when you work in IT...

Jay2010-07-26 12:46

CoderDan:

Jay:

CoderDan:

For all the affirmative action nuts out there. AA only comes into play when dealing with federal contracts above a certain dollar amount. In state or municipal requirements it varies. But as a general rule, you may hire whomever you choose. If you want a government contract then yes, there *may* be some rules for AA.

Since the job interview didn't state what type of company or contract then we can't logically assume that AA is in force. Can we?

Umm, no. While the exact rules are different depending on just which law applies to a particular form of discrimination, in general anti-discrimination laws apply to all companies in the U.S. that have 15 or more employees.

http://www.eeoc.gov/employers/coverage_private.cfm

N/A - I never mentioned discrimination, but rather quota based hiring given a race, gender or disability. The comment wasn't "Ohhh must be a company of 15" - but rather, an incompetent and petulant woman - "must be affirmative action" LOL

You guys can have your topic back.

I'm not sure when companies are REQUIRED to specifically implement affirmative action plans -- I admit I don't have the time to research this right now -- but the fact that that particular solution to actual or potential charges of discrimination may not be required by law in a specific instance does not mean that it is not used. "http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/history/35th/milestones/1979.html" lists as one of the milestonces in equal employment opportunity for 1979, "EEOC issues Affirmative Action Guidelines providing employers information on how to undertake voluntary affirmative action." The context mentions nothing about government contracts, and in any case I've worked for companies that had affirmative action plans that did not have government contracts.

As all but the smallest companies in the US are subject to anti-discrimination laws, many of them use AA plans to either satisfy complaints of past discrimination or as a pre-emptive defense against future charges.

When the law says, "You must not do X", and then the agency charged with enforcing the law says "Here are procedures to insure that you are meeting the requirements of the law", that particular set of procedures may not be technically obligatory, but it is surely fair to say that people are being pressured to do it.

To an employee who believes that he has been the subject of "reverse discrimination", or who believes that he has to do more work to make up for the lack of qualifications of someone hired under an AA program, whether that program was specifically required by law, or was chosen by the employer from a variety of options available to meet the requirements of the law, makes little difference. (Whether or not such a belief is a valid complaint is an entirely different quesiton that I don't plan to go into here.)

If you believe this is a good law, why are you anxious to point out that it may not apply to most employers? If you believe it is a bad law, why are you trying to downplay its impact? Your position is curious.

Jay2010-07-26 12:51

CoderDan:

The comment wasn't "Ohhh must be a company of 15" - but rather, an incompetent and petulant woman - "must be affirmative action" LOL

An unqualified candidate was called in for an interview despite the department telling HR that they believed this person was unqualified. So people speculated as to why, and someone suggested an attempt to meet an affirmative action quota. This hardly seems unreasonable. If someone declared that there was no other possible explanation for the facts given, that would be unreasonable. But to say that because we don't have enough information to confirm this speculation that therefore it is somehow illegitimate to consider it IS unreasonable.

If I hear about an auto accident and say, "Sounds like that driver was drunk", my speculation may or may not be correct, but it is not absurd or unfair to suggest the possibility.

You're awfully defensive about affirmative action.

Eternal Density2010-07-27 04:22

Anon:

Something is missing from the 2nd one. I was expecting it to turn out that the candidate was the HR directors wife/mistress/daughter/niece/third cousin twice removed. There must be some reason the HR director was so adamant that they be interviewed.

Or perhaps she was all of the above.

Henry2010-07-27 14:15

"I get paid. If you expect me to deal with all that computer shit, I'll go off on stress leave and sue you."

I'd be surprised if she wasn't a black woman. I've had "shit like that" happen on my watch too.

Even worse thing is that some employers in the UK give jobs to such fools because of the "Equal Opportunities Employer" certificate.

Ken2010-07-27 18:26

Its more because whoever states their salary demands first loses. If you're thinking 100k and the company is thinking 120k. If you say 100k first you just lost 20k a year.

Duke of New York2010-07-27 19:15

I can't be the only person who read "she flipped on us. Extending her index finger" as "she flipped us off"

Duke of New York2010-07-27 19:17

Henry:

I'd be surprised if she wasn't a black woman.

She could just as easily be a frazzled blonde with a drug habit.

Dan2010-07-28 13:42

Anon:

Something is missing from the 2nd one. I was expecting it to turn out that the candidate was the HR directors wife/mistress/daughter/niece/third cousin twice removed. There must be some reason the HR director was so adamant that they be interviewed.

The HR Director was covering EEO statutes. Basically, they needed a large enough and diverse enough pool of applicants to say they were not discriminating against anyone.

Unfortunately, this lets in candidates in who should be discriminated, as in completely unqualified for the job.

The Voice Of Reason2010-07-28 23:23

Bitch, are you retarded? It wasn't just that it was an incompetent and petulant woman, it was that it was an incompetent and petulant woman WHO HR DEMANDED BE INTERVIEWED. And why might they do that? Affirmative Action is a pretty likely answer.

PC Idiot.

John D Lawyer2010-07-29 04:26

A fun book, but rather spoilt for me because it was missing around 40 pages. I couldn't work out whether it was a joke, considering the title, but it completely broke the plot.

I've kept it, the joke appealed whether intentional or not, but never finished the story.

CAPTCHA: abigo; an instruction to my ex girlfriend

John D Lawyer2010-07-29 04:27

Matt Westwood:

operagost:

Pop ulus:

No, that isn't Affirmative Action. At all. Read some Tim Wise before you make an ass out of yourself again.

Try thinking for yourself before you level personal attacks at someone you don't know, you presumptive cretin.

Misuse of affirmative action often results in bringing in woefully under qualified (in this example, quite an understatement) candidates in order to satisfy a policy, usually a racial, nationality, or gender quota.

Notice that we don't know whether the candidate fell into any of these categories, except possibly the last being that women are still generally under represented in IT.

"Incompetence" by Rob Grant is an interesting riff on this social trend. A thoroughly entertaining (although marginally implausible) read.

Ha, this is what I meant to quote, and in so doing provided another example.

Duke of New York2010-07-29 17:24

The Voice Of Reason:

Bitch, are you retarded? It wasn't just that it was an incompetent and petulant woman, it was that it was an incompetent and petulant woman WHO HR DEMANDED BE INTERVIEWED. And why might they do that? Affirmative Action is a pretty likely answer.

PC Idiot.

Why don't you go burn a cross about it

Surt2010-07-31 11:52

Jay:

Hey, on the serious side, when a company asks you very early in the discussion how much you expect to be paid, what do you say?

Any time I've worked with an employment agency they've always told me not to give a straight answer to that question. But I wonder. I mean, if the company expects to pay someone, whatever, $40,000 a year, and you are looking for $50,000, I'd think they'd be willing to talk to you and see if you're good enough to be worth pushing their budget. But if you wouldn't take a job for less than $100,000 and there's no way they're going to pay that much, isn't it just wasting both of your time to go through the whole interview process? Unless there's some reason to believe that they could be so impressed by your abilities that they will pay way more than they planned, or that you will be so impressed with how much fun this job sounds like that you will be willing to work for much less than you originally planned, what's the point?

On the flip side, if they are expecting to pay $100,000 and you say you will work for $20,000 ... well, if I was the interviewer in that case, I would be wondering if you are just a great bargain for some reason -- like maybe you're living off your billionaire uncle's trust fund and so you really don't need the money or something -- or if someone willing to work for that little must really not be qualified for the job.

I've only once had such a situation come up where I was on the hiring side: We were hiring a software tester, and someone applied who asked for half what we were willing to pay. We interviewed him and he sounded quite capable, so my boss quietly told him what number to change the expected salary before turning the form in to HR. (We ultimately hired him and he turned out to be one of the best testers we ever had.)

I usually try to get salary expectation out of the way before the interview. Maybe because I'm on the high side, and I've had a couple of interviews now where the offer came in lower than my current pay, and I had to explain that I wasn't even going to consider their offer at less than 50% more. Recruiters will tell you anything to get you in the interview room, make sure you get your pay number from the hiring company (live and learn).

Mariusz2010-08-12 07:56

I am actually working in the company as from the last article. I am single developer in a hospitality based corporation.

This kind of scenario has definitely upsides.

1. Nobody knows what you are doing. (finished product counts only)
2. Nobody knows how long a task will take.
3. Nobody tells you how to do your work.

Obviously you don't have anyone to talk to and you need to keep your skills up to date using web, courses etc.

I like it anyway.

anon2010-08-17 22:47

Sabre, he actually was given specifications...

"so let's say I wanted a site with a menu on it, but I wanted to be able to define that menu any way I wanted to, redefine it on the fly, with as many sub-menu headers that I want —"

This is what I usually got for specifications at my last job.

anon2010-08-17 23:03

Roger:

Man these comments are turning so americans! Gald to be european...

Roger,

I doubt most Europeans would think very highly of your butchery of the English language. I'm proud to be American.

Some Guy2010-08-22 19:51

he said the sysadmin didn't let him install anything.

Prashant2011-01-25 07:16

There are two names, Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇā, both of which could be spelled "Krishna" in ASCII. The first is a mythical incarnation of the god Vishnu (male), and the second is a female (mortal) character in the epic Mahābhārata, better known by her alternate name, Draupadī.

Kempeth2011-01-28 04:35

You don't fight with some one dumber than yourself. They drag you down to their level and beat you through home field advantage...