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If you do not know who the Getty's are, please look them up before posting.
Have you noticed that the new Majesty hymnal contains music from the Gettys/Sovereign Grace? What is your opinion on that? I find it an outrage that they are digging through garbage to find good music. I think it is sad I can't just buy a CD from a trusted source without knowing if there is CCM behind the music. Why aren't pastors stepping up and writing the Hamiltons? Why aren't we fighting for our music? Why have we stopped caring about associations? Don't people understand as soon as a weaker Christian hears you listening to something like "Amazing Grace My Chains are Gone" they will automatically assume you would listen to Chris Tomlin? We will loose my generation if we do not stand true.

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I couldn't tell you one hymnal from the next. I couldn't tell you the author of most hymns and I could't tell you who may be known for singing certain hymns or songs or CCM.

If I heard you singing a song that glorified God, I would notice that, and if I heard you singing a song that was unscriptural in some way, I would notice that, but I would not associate you with any particular author or singer.

Whoever chooses the hymnals for the church is responsible to make sure the content is in keeping with the views held by the church. Our church hymnals are fairly old so there couldn't be anything in them that's been written in the past 40 or so years.

Other than new churches and those who seek to stay "current", most churches don't purchase new hymnals all that often. In fact, many churches rarely use hymnals anymore since they have screens they can show the words of the hymns on which is easier for everyone to read than are the hymnals.

There have always been battles over what songs to include and exclude in hymnals. That's why there are so many different hymnals out there. Not all churches like the same hymns, not all churches reject the same songs. That's why there are certain hymnals in Methodist churches, a different one in the church on the other side of town, why this IFB church uses one hymnal but the next uses another.

The only real answer here is that each church is responsible for making sure the hymnal they purchase is worthy of the money and the songs included are ones they are in agreement with. Beyond that, there will be no great outcry, pro or con, from the many churches with regards to a particular hymnal.

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If you do not know who the Getty's are, please look them up before posting.
Have you noticed that the new Majesty hymnal contains music from the Gettys/Sovereign Grace? What is your opinion on that? I find it an outrage that they are digging through garbage to find good music. I think it is sad I can't just buy a CD from a trusted source without knowing if there is CCM behind the music. Why aren't pastors stepping up and writing the Hamiltons? Why aren't we fighting for our music? Why have we stopped caring about associations? Don't people understand as soon as a weaker Christian hears you listening to something like "Amazing Grace My Chains are Gone" they will automatically assume you would listen to Chris Tomlin? We will loose my generation if we do not stand true.

I don't have the Majesty Hymnal, but I find this quite surprising. I checked out the Majesty Music website but didn't see any CD's from these CCM artists, but there is no way for me to verify that they included these songs in their hymnal.
But I certainly understand what you are saying, and I agree with you 100%. I believe the operative Scripture verse is this one:

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I couldn't tell you one hymnal from the next. I couldn't tell you the author of most hymns and I could't tell you who may be known for singing certain hymns or songs or CCM.

If I heard you singing a song that glorified God, I would notice that, and if I heard you singing a song that was unscriptural in some way, I would notice that, but I would not associate you with any particular author or singer.

Whoever chooses the hymnals for the church is responsible to make sure the content is in keeping with the views held by the church. Our church hymnals are fairly old so there couldn't be anything in them that's been written in the past 40 or so years.

Other than new churches and those who seek to stay "current", most churches don't purchase new hymnals all that often. In fact, many churches rarely use hymnals anymore since they have screens they can show the words of the hymns on which is easier for everyone to read than are the hymnals.

There have always been battles over what songs to include and exclude in hymnals. That's why there are so many different hymnals out there. Not all churches like the same hymns, not all churches reject the same songs. That's why there are certain hymnals in Methodist churches, a different one in the church on the other side of town, why this IFB church uses one hymnal but the next uses another.

The only real answer here is that each church is responsible for making sure the hymnal they purchase is worthy of the money and the songs included are ones they are in agreement with. Beyond that, there will be no great outcry, pro or con, from the many churches with regards to a particular hymnal.

John,
I agree with you about the principle of the autonomy of the local church.
I don't agree with you when it comes to noticing who wrote the song or music.
Just as I would never trust a book written by a neo-fundamentalist or a neo-evangelical to be completely accurate on theology, so I would never trust a song written by a CCM artist to be worth anything.
And Melodys is right - when we sing the songs written by CCM artists in our church, we are condoning their music - whether we wish to or not. Just because you personally don't pay attention to the author of the song does not mean that others don't. Most people do - and associate what we sing in church as the "standard" for what is acceptable outside of church. We must be extremely careful about the message we send by what we put our "stamp of approval" on in the church setting.

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John,
I agree with you about the principle of the autonomy of the local church.
I don't agree with you when it comes to noticing who wrote the song or music.
Just as I would never trust a book written by a neo-fundamentalist or a neo-evangelical to be completely accurate on theology, so I would never trust a song written by a CCM artist to be worth anything.
And Melodys is right - when we sing the songs written by CCM artists in our church, we are condoning their music - whether we wish to or not. Just because you personally don't pay attention to the author of the song does not mean that others don't. Most people do - and associate what we sing in church as the "standard" for what is acceptable outside of church. We must be extremely careful about the message we send by what we put our "stamp of approval" on in the church setting.

IN Christ,

I wasn't disagreeing with what Melody stated, only pointing out that I have no idea who the author is of most songs. In my own experience, most in the congregation don't know who the author is of most songs they sing. Typically, only those more musically inclined pay that much attention to such matters. Even when it comes to knowing the author of a song, I've noticed most people know little to nothing about the author.

In any event, the main point I was trying to make is that since there is no unity among the churches when it comes to music, there will be no common outcry, for or against, any particular hymnal. That leaves it to each church to be very careful with regards to selecting hymnals.

Even the Sword of the Lord made changes to a good old hymnal when they put out a new edition. Many folks didn't even notice, but there were those who did take note of the changes.

No matter the source of the hymnal, in todays climate I think we have to be very cautious before making a purchase.

I know nothing about hymnal companies, but I know there are hymnals out there today which contain many CCM, Southern Gospel and other modern songs. I also know many churches are not buying new hymnals and some newer churches don't even have hymnals. This is because most churches today have some form of video screen where they show the words to the hymns and hymnals are becoming far less used.

Whether it's a church, pastor, book, hymnal or song, we each have to be careful and each church needs to be careful too. I've heard of several occasions where a pastor will recommend a book from the pulpit only to find out later there is stuff in the book that's not in line with Scripture or that teaches a topic differently tha he does.

In our church no music is played without first being approved by one or both of our pastors. This includes music for weddings, which upsets some folks who seem to think they should be able to play whatever they want at their wedding they have decided to have in our church. Our pastors remain firm on this matter, if a song the couple wishes to play is inappropriate for the church they have the choice to drop that song or if they want that song played they can have their wedding someplace else.

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I highly dislike it when a modern song write will take a old great hymn, such as amazing Grace, them butcher it to pieces, adding their take, & even chancing the music.

It shows Bible study being able to tell if a song is up to par or not by listening to it, that should be complimented, not put down.

Many of us out here is rural American have never heard of such people at the Getty's, & many others, this is the 1st time I have heard the name, & of them doing such damage to a great old hymn.

PS. There's many of us that don't keep up with the world, especially flashy singers. out here in the back side of rural America. That is we pick & chose what we let into our minds.

Last week someone said the name of a popular singer and I had no idea what they were talking about. I asked them what that was! They said the name again and said they were a top singer. I told them I never heard of them and asked what they sing. Apparently some type of modern popular music. I still can't even remember their name.

When it comes to modern music, I don't know much about it at all. Other than knowing some modern country singers, because most of my family and others in the area listen to country music so I hear some about them, I don't know this modern stuff.

A couple years ago I heard a song in a store, I was with my sister and niece, and I said something about that's something new, and they both looked at me strangely and said that song was a few years old. Well, it was new to me! I don't want to listen to what the world listens to and I don't care who the latest "stars" are.

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If you do not know who the Getty's are, please look them up before posting.
Have you noticed that the new Majesty hymnal contains music from the Gettys/Sovereign Grace? What is your opinion on that? I find it an outrage that they are digging through garbage to find good music. I think it is sad I can't just buy a CD from a trusted source without knowing if there is CCM behind the music. Why aren't pastors stepping up and writing the Hamiltons? Why aren't we fighting for our music? Why have we stopped caring about associations? Don't people understand as soon as a weaker Christian hears you listening to something like "Amazing Grace My Chains are Gone" they will automatically assume you would listen to Chris Tomlin? We will loose my generation if we do not stand true.

I own Rejoice Hymns which is the latest hymnal from Majesty Music. Can you tell me a hymn in it from Sovereign Grace?

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Music publisher working on getting CCM into the few remaining churches that are taking a stand. I find it very frustrating that Majesty has done this. I'm going to make sure our church leadership and the leaders of a few other churches that have used their materials in the past are made aware of this.

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Music publisher working on getting CCM into the few remaining churches that are taking a stand. I find it very frustrating that Majesty has done this. I'm going to make sure our church leadership and the leaders of a few other churches that have used their materials in the past are made aware of this.

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I highly dislike it when a modern song write will take a old great hymn, such as amazing Grace, them butcher it to pieces, adding their take, & even chancing the music.

It shows Bible study being able to tell if a song is up to par or not by listening to it, that should be complimented, not put down.

Many of us out here is rural American have never heard of such people at the Getty's, & many others, this is the 1st time I have heard the name, & of them doing such damage to a great old hymn.

PS. There's many of us that don't keep up with the world, especially flashy singers. out here in the back side of rural America. That is we pick & chose what we let into our minds.

But you have to realize, the teenagers do! I know people who justify listening to CCM because they heard the song sung by someone else (that person could have not even known where it came from, and sang it innocently!)

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Last week someone said the name of a popular singer and I had no idea what they were talking about. I asked them what that was! They said the name again and said they were a top singer. I told them I never heard of them and asked what they sing. Apparently some type of modern popular music. I still can't even remember their name.

When it comes to modern music, I don't know much about it at all. Other than knowing some modern country singers, because most of my family and others in the area listen to country music so I hear some about them, I don't know this modern stuff.

A couple years ago I heard a song in a store, I was with my sister and niece, and I said something about that's something new, and they both looked at me strangely and said that song was a few years old. Well, it was new to me! I don't want to listen to what the world listens to and I don't care who the latest "stars" are.

I'm not going to post much under this topic, I don't believe I can really add much to it.

When reading this post you made replying to my post reminded me of what use to be my favorite Baptist Christian Book Store. I have made comments about them selling literature that goes 100 % against the teachings we stand for. They also sell musical CD's by singers that are nothing but trash & would not be in a good Baptist Christian Book Store that only wants to promote God's truths.

Before they got so bad I bought much literature from them, & any time I was over there I would stop in & browse around. Now I hardly ever enter the place for I have to wade though to much junk them generally worn out from that & give up leaving before I find anything worth taking home.

Sad thing is, many other Baptist Christian Book Stores have gone down the same path, its generally all about making the bucks, & when that happens many people, even Christians that were once good Christians, become blind.

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It would help if we had specific rules or guidelines regarding music that was consistently held to. This isn't the case, whether we are talking about Christian churches in general, Baptists or even specifically IFBs.

Even if we only speak to the smaller issue of IFB churches, there is no agreement as to what rules or guidelines to use in determining the acceptable or unacceptable status of songs.

When individual churches have some set of rules they follow for themselves, these rules are most often not applied consistently. Typically certain types or styles of music are rejected based upon their rules yet music they like which also doesn't meet their guidelines are accepted using various exceptions so they can accept them.

There is also the very difficult to contend with aspect of preference. How much debate over music is simply a matter of preference, with the preference (whether pro or con) not being a matter of right or wrong, but simply of preference? What determines the line between legitimate preference and a sound standard?

For the sake of discussion, I'm only considering true bibical churches here, made up of those born again in Christ. We know that even when we narrow the issue down to just considering actual Christians, there is still no agreement, no solid standards that are consistently followed.

There are true Christian churches using a wide variety of music in a variety of styles, from orchastras to organ only, from bluegrass to modern Southern Gospel, from piano only to old style Southern Gospel, from psalms only to only hymns from a particular hymnbook, from one aspect of what is called CCM to another, from guitar to no guitar, from any musical instrument to only a select few or even no instruments at all.

Is it likely all these true Christian churches are going to come together and agree upon one standard for church music and then consistently apply the standard? No. When it comes down to it, we really only have influence in this area within our own church. Often, even within a true Christian church with a set of clear music standards established, there is not full agreement in this area.

Music is an important thing to consider and each individual and church should confront the issue and settle it as best as possible. Beyond that we must remember that part of IFB is Independent and that means we will never have one set standard that is consistently applied among all IFBs, and we absolutely won't see that beyond IFBs.

Our church has a short set of guidelines regarding music and the pastors have the authority to accept or reject music. Anyone is free to suggest a song be played or sang in the church, or to have one dropped, but it will be the pastors making the decision based upon the guidelines.

It seems some other churches have something similar, some follow "their" select hymnal only, some allow a "music pastor/leader" to determine such matters, and some are so open almost anything is allowed.

This is an important area to consider when looking for a church home. It's possible to have a good church with a good pastor preaching the Gospel yet they use music one has a preference against or that one doesn't believe is appropriate. Better to learn this before committing to a church.

Ho 10:2 Their heart is divided; now shall they be found faulty: he shall break down their altars, he shall spoil their images.

Ac 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

We have many churches, that are made up of unbelievers, or at least there's more unbelievers in them, than believers. That would be close to 80% of the churches, those that teach one is saved by works & ect. These churches that do teach the one & only way to be saved, in them you have a majority of lost people. Plus you have the unlearned in those that do teach people how to be saved. Every wind that comes blowing in, tosses them to & fro. There is nothing stable about them. As God says, 'A doubled minded person is unstable in all his ways.

So there is no wonder that many churches are full of ungodly music & singers, while setting setting them up on a pedstal, for that is their entertainment. Plus, much of the modern music, especially CCM & Southern Gospel, is to show off the singers voice, that is bring glory to the singer, sell CD's, not for really brining glory to our 'Awesome God.'

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If you do not know who the Getty's are, please look them up before posting.
Have you noticed that the new Majesty hymnal contains music from the Gettys/Sovereign Grace? What is your opinion on that? I find it an outrage that they are digging through garbage to find good music. I think it is sad I can't just buy a CD from a trusted source without knowing if there is CCM behind the music. Why aren't pastors stepping up and writing the Hamiltons? Why aren't we fighting for our music? Why have we stopped caring about associations? Don't people understand as soon as a weaker Christian hears you listening to something like "Amazing Grace My Chains are Gone" they will automatically assume you would listen to Chris Tomlin? We will loose my generation if we do not stand true.

Keith & Kristyn Getty have a very positive influence on Christian music & particularly on Stuart Townend. Their collaborations have produced hymns with good basic tunes which do not need a singer-songwriter to lead. Townend has moved from CCM that I have rejected to hymns including "In Christ Alone" "How Deep the Father's Love" "My heart is filled with Thankfulness"

These, I believe, are good Scriptural hymns that will stand the test of time, unlike much of the CCM ephemera which has already passed into oblivion.

The CCM aspect of the Gettys is apparent in their concert tours, & Kristyn's voice has been badly "Americanised." Is that a reason to reject the hymns? Do we reject "Amazing Grace" because there are many bad versions?

There are many hymnbooks & all include hymns we would not sing, & some of the older & most Scriptural are of poor quality with regard to the poetry - many of the Scottish Metrical Psalms are barely comprehensible because of forced rhymes & displaced word order to fit the metre. BUT these were introduced so congregations could sing - line by line, in English. Luther wrote hymns so his congregations could sing. Before that worship was by the priests & choirs in Latin.

My early music experience was my mother (Doris Day) singing mainly English folk songs. Church music was Anglican chants, versicles & responses, & was pretty meaningless. School hymns tended to be formal & "heavy."

CCM has made a form of Christian music popular, & the Gettys are putting some substance & a more traditional form into it.

I choose most of the hymns we sing, but I find that many of the old hymns I have known & loved for over 50 years are so poorly known that the congregation is in difficulty singing them. Include a Getty/Townend hymn & it goes well - even if is not already known.

The hymnbook compilers use THEIR wisdom in what they include. We use OUR wisdom in what we choose to sing.

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Well, Ian, I chose a scottish metrical psalm, yesterday, for our old folks lunch club. We sang, the Lord's my Shepherd to Crimmond and they all sang it well even though quite a lot of them are not church goers. If I chose that awful Townend version, i expect only a few would have known it. (and the chorus doesn't make sense)

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Majesty Music e-mailed me back with the following reply. Note they responded with a few paragraphs but totally ignored my point. My point was CCM was being introduced though the Gettys and Townend. I also mentioned Dr. Frank Garlock who they don't mention.

Thank you for contacting Majesty Music in regards to Rejoice Hymns. The editors of the hymnal chose to include the songs after much prayer and after seeking counsel. A portion of the preface to the book includes the following information in regards to the selection process:In “Rejoice Hymns”, we have sought to include a variety of new hymns and spiritual songs as well as the beloved standards. Our purpose has been to edify the body of Christ through a wide selection of biblically-based songs that enhance worship and personal growth in Christ. To “muse” is to meditate, and our desire is for the “mus”ic in this collection to be worthy of our meditation. “And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the Lord”. Psalm 40:3 (words of David, the sweet psalmist of Israel )Our research in the selection process has been thorough, spanning over five years. Each song included has been carefully chosen according to biblical soundness of text and the musical ability to communicate the text. “Rejoice Hymns” is a uniting of hymns rich in doctrine and theology as well as spiritual song of Christian testimony. To elevate one over the other would be one-sided. It is not well balanced to lean heavily on doctrinal truth to the exclusion of personal testimony; neither is it wise to lean heavily on testimony to the exclusion of biblical doctrine….The preface goes on to quote a preface written by C.H. Spurgeon in regards to the selection process for the publication of Metropolitan Tabernacle Hymnbook.

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Eric Wyse is an accomplished keyboardist, songwriter, church musician, and record producer. Since 1993, Eric has served as Organist St. Bartholomew's Episcopal Church in Nashville, Tennessee, and was named Director of Music in 2001.

As a pianist, Eric has recorded the best-selling "Reflections" series of solo piano music for Christian Book Distributors, with sales in excess of 200,000 units. His organ work was featured on the worship project "City on a Hill - Sing Alleluia".

He is the co-writer for the modern hymn, "Wonderful, Merciful Savior," penned in 1989 with his wife, Dawn Rodgers. Recorded by numerous Christian artists including Selah, Phillips Craig & Dean, Kari Jobe, Anthony Evans, Kathy Troccoli, Travis Cottrell, and Clay Cross, the song received a 2002 Gospel Music Association Dove Award nomination for “Inspirational Song of the Year”. It appears in many new hymnals, including Rejoice Hymns (Majesty Music, 2011), Songs of Worship and Praise (2010, Taylor Publications), The Baptist Hymnal (2008, LifeWay Worship), Hymns for a Pilgrim People (GIA/NAACC, 2007), and Christian Life Hymnal (Hendrickson, 2006). Other songs written by Eric include "Lamb of God (Angus Dei)" recorded by BeBo Norman and his setting of the Lord's Prayer, "Our Father in Heaven", which is gaining acceptance in churches across the country.

An award-winning producer and consultant in recording and video production, Eric has worked with a variety of artists, including Keith & Kristyn Getty, The Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir, CeCe Winans, Amy Grant, Donnie McClurkin, and Hee Haw’s LuLu Roman. In 2007, he produced a critically acclaimed full-length London recording of Handel's Messiah with British conductor John Rutter, featuring The Cambridge Singers & Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. Eric is married to Dawn Rodgers and resides in Brentwood, Tennessee. They have two teenage children. A native of Brattleboro, Vermont, Eric studied piano, organ, and church music at Cedarville University (Ohio), completing his undergraduate studies at Belmont University (Nashville) with a BS in Liberal Studies. He is currently purusing a Masters of Church Music at Lee University (Cleveland, TN).

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This song is included in the Rejoice Hymns hymn book. This video is available on the Getty's website.

My point is that many of their hymns can serve the church when they are separated from the "entertainment" in which they are presented in the link. It sounds good when sung with a piano or organ. Would you sing this hymn if it were by Wesley or Watts - or Newton? It's a lot better than the hymnbook staple "Onward Christian Soldiers."

1. O church arise, & put your armour on
hear the call of Christ our captain
for now the weak can say that they are strong
in the strength that God has given.
With shield of faith, & belt of truth
we'll stand against the devil's lies;
an army bold, whose battle cry is love,
reaching out to those in darkness

2. Our call to war, to love the captive soul
But to rage against the captor;
And with the sword that makes the wounded whole,
We will fight with faith and valour.
When faced with trials on every side
We know the outcome is secure,
And Christ will have the prize for which He died,
An inheritance of nations.

3. Come see the cross, where love and mercy meet,
As the Son of God is stricken;
Then see His foes lie crushed beneath His feet,
For the Conqueror has risen!
And as the stone is rolled away,
And Christ emerges from the grave,
This victory march continues till the day
Every eye and heart shall see Him.

4. So Spirit, come, put strength in every stride,
Give grace for every hurdle,
That we may run with faith to win the prize
Of a servant good and faithful.
As saints of old still line the way,
Retelling triumphs of His grace,
We hear their calls, and hunger for the day
When with Christ we stand in glory.