Time For Bullpen Makeover Pt. IV (Or Is It Pt. V?)

When Manny Acta describes a game as "a typical example of what got us where we're at right now" -- and that's what he said after last night's affair -- I'm willing to bet my house, my rollerblades, my paycheck and my mother that he's describing a loss. And not just a loss, but a loss that turned ugly in the final innings. A loss where the guys paid to get those final outs don't get the final outs... or at least not without throwing about 46 pitches per inning, and driving every last soul in a Curly W cap back toward Half Street.

You remember those early days, right, when those "typical examples" were still new enough to cause alarm? The Nats' Opening Day bullpen included Julian Tavarez, Joel Hanrahan, Joe Beimel, Saul Rivera, Wil Ledezma, Mike Hinckley and Steven Shell. Now, only the first three from that list remain on the 25-man roster. Ledezma, with Class AAA Syracuse, is getting swatted around the Independent League, where opponents are hitting .350 against him. Hinckley is now pitching for the Class AAA Oklahoma City RedHawks, though he does have a 2.78 ERA. Shell, after putting up a 7.90 ERA in the Class AAA Pacific Coast League, was just demoted to Class AA. He's now a member of the West Tennessee Diamond Jaxx.

So yeah, the bullpen is better.

Acting GM Mike Rizzo should be heralded for his dumpster diving moves. It's not easy to find scraps from the dumpster, much less find enough to cook a full dinner. But from that pile, he found way to restore some competence in that 'pen. Not every one of Rizzo's moves has worked -- the whole league would hit like Albert Pujols, if everybody threw like Logan Kensing -- but that's to be expected. If two of five scrap heap guys post sub-3.00 ERAs (Ron Villone, Mike MacDougal), that's about two more than you would have expected.

So, this is my roundabout way of suggesting something: Rizzo should go back to the scrap heap. Or at least pull a few very deserving relievers from Syracuse and fly them into town before today's game. I'm especially thinking about Tyler Clippard, whose ERA up in Boeheim County is under 1.00.

Though the Nats' bullpen has been much-improved during the last month, it still has its shaky elements. Namely, three players -- Kip Wells, Joel Hanrahan, and Jesus Colome. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Nats cut ties with Wells and Colome, especially because both are vets who aren't part of the long-term plan. Hanrahan is a tougher case. He's been lost all season, no matter his role. But he's out of options, and has the raw potential that would probably catch another club's attention, were he put through waivers. Washington has to decide if it can afford to rehabilitate/hide Hanrahan while keeping him on the roster. Certainly you can hide one weak link if six other pitchers are going well. You can't do it if only four others are going well.

"Somebody has to step up out of those three guys," Manny Acta said, "because I can't pitch the same four guys out of the pen every single day, whether I'm trailing or ahead."

Here are the three ne'er-do-wells, and a quick-hit summary of their issues,

KIP WELLS (0-2, 6.49 ERA, 18 BB, 18 K) -- In five of his 23 games this year, Wells has walked at least two batters while recording somewhere between one and four outs. Oh, and another time he pitched two full innings, which allowed him just enough time to walk four.

JOEL HANRAHAN (0-3, 6.68 ERA, 13 BB, 34 K) -- Much as we obsess about his old control problems, that probably obscures the real issue for Hanrahan. People are crushing the ball against him. Opponents are batting .331. In eight of his 33 games, he's allowed at least three hits; only one of those eight appearances lasted beyond one inning.

JESUS COLOME (1-0, 8.25 ERA, 4 BB, 11 K) -- Pretty simple, here. Colome has a major league fastball, but he's not a major league reliever. Perhaps the Nats just wanted to give the righty a fair shake to prove as much. Consider it done. Or ask opponents, who are batting .364 against him.

We tie up the score 3-3 late in the game. Lannan comes out in the 8th and strikes out the first batter. Its like were almost respectable against the top team in baseball. Manny makes a savvy double switch.

1 and 2/3 innings later, its a blow-out laugher, courtesy of the dumpster bullpen. Can't blame this one on Manny. He has to use the tools he's got.

Hey Nats Fans here is more bad news to drink in along with your Morning Joe. WUSA 9 is reporting, "according to Team President Stan Kasten, Manny Acta is expected to stay on as the Nats field manager for the remainder of the season". Maybe thats the signal, check it out Chico!

To all of the Kool-Aiders and the delusional what we witnessed last night (either at home via MASN or sandwiched in the stands between true Sox fans and the faux Pink-hat ESPN generated types) was probably the gulf that exists between the haves and the have-nots. The Red Sox are a complete baseball machine. The Nats on the other hand are a dismal cluncker that no matter how much oil you spray on the gears the damn thing keeps stalling every few miles or so. If the Red Sox, Rays, BJays, Cardinals, Dodgers, Phillies are setting the standards for success, folks the Washington Nationals are easily 5 to 10 years away. Its the truth and its to bad.

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I was impresssed with Lannan's ability to wriggle out of trouble last night and how he completely owned JD Drew. The HR to Bay could be expected when Lannan was elevating and giving up flies, but a single solo doesn't usually lose a game.

In section 111 Upper, I'd guess it was 90+% Red Sox fans. One loud jerk who was more derisive towards the Nats than positive towards the Sox, but other than that, actually well behaved. I think that was due to the number of transplants from NE who live down here but have the Nats as a their NL (and 2d) team. There were a few folks with Sox caps and Nats jerseys, or vice versa.

A lot of respect for Willie Harris's glove. There were more than a few times when balls were hit his way when people had the "yes . . . yes . . . no!" reaction.

Finally, I had a new appreciation for Nats Park last night. It just has a different feel when it is packed. The fake limestone / concrete doesn't have an industrial feel to it, the standing areas in center and in the cut aways are packed like rail birds at a track, the concessions still were much quicker than last year even with the large crowd. With the weather near perfect for late June, you got a sense of what the park could be.

Posted by: jca-CrystalCity | June 24, 2009 9:26 AM | Report abuse

Aside to Surly W and the other poster wondering about the 2009 Red Sox diversity - see my 8:54 AM post on the Chico returns thread

Pretty good analysis Chico. Speaking of Kensing, he has been putting up good numbers at Syracuse (12 games, 1-0 7 save, 4.5 E.R.A., 14 innings). What do you think of that? It does appear that Mock/Clippard is the way to go, but who would be suprised if it did not work out?

If true, it's good news to me and I would add "ha ha" to Ken Rosenthal.

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Hey Nats Fans here is more bad news to drink in along with your Morning Joe. WUSA 9 is reporting, "according to Team President Stan Kasten, Manny Acta is expected to stay on as the Nats field manager for the remainder of the season". Maybe thats the signal, check it out Chico!

Hanrahan has been giving up bloop hits all year, that tells me its more of a strategy problem than an execution problem. When was the last time he gave up a home run? Look at last night, bloop double to Pedroia because he knows its going outside, how about mixing in some inside pitches? If you look at the 'luck' stats, Hanrahan isn't having that bad of a year.

The Nats on the other hand are a dismal cluncker that no matter how much oil you spray on the gears the damn thing keeps stalling every few miles or so. If the Red Sox, Rays, BJays, Cardinals, Dodgers, Phillies are setting the standards for success, folks the Washington Nationals are easily 5 to 10 years away. Its the truth and its to bad.
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Pardon my optimism, but I saw encouraging signs. A tie score in the 8th, despite a less-than-stellar performance by Lannan. Some good fielding.

Some better finishing pitching, and it would have been an entertaining, tight game. Not a blow-out.

natsfan1a1; its was running on their news crawl, along with the scores. If you have HD they created a sort of newsbox, with local VA, DC, MD news on the bottom of the screen and weather and other useless BS on the right quadrant of the screen.

I didn't check their website but my guess is someone in the sports department (Haber or that blond chick with the big-white chompers) was at the game last night (go figure right) and they might have gotten the scoop from StanK.

nattydread1, please, please give us a break. Outside of Bays HR, the Red Sox made the Nats look foolish. They out hustled'em in every aspect of the game. The Red Sox took advantage of every Nats weakness, all of which we are well aware of. There are no encouraging signs people. Good teams win ballgames because they do both the big things and the small things right. Bad teams usually beat themselves becuase they can't distinguish between the big things and the small things and in the end it all adds up. If your willing to pay for that good for you, I'm not!

No more bullpen bottom feeding. please. The Nats bullpen has become the Last Chance Saloon for guys like Tavarez, Wells, Colome and to a certain extent Villone. The Nats have to four guys SOMEWHERE in their minor league system who could do better jobs than the relief Rent-A-Wrecks that keep being brought in here.

Hey gang-did it seem like the Sox were just flt out playing harder? In particular the infield....charging balls aggressively, crisp hard throws....it just seems as if our whole team is playing with a certain...despondancy....I mean, day in and day out this stuff has gotta wear on you. With the exception of the games in NYC vs. the Yanks.....we just seem....beaten down. And echoing another poster-I love Dunn, but his shortcomings notwithstanding-no WAY you should let a guy advance 2nd to 3rd on a shallow ball in front of you. It sure can be hard to watch this team....when's our next West Coast swing? Go Nats...........

"Hey gang-did it seem like the Sox were just flt out playing harder? In particular the infield."

No. In fact, quite a few times I expressed dismay at how much the Sox were dogging it. Lowell twice could have forced a close play at the plate, but just jogged instead. They didn't look alive until they started leading by five.

On Youk going from 1st to 3rd in the 7th ... Dunn was playing Jason Bay deep and a little towards the line. Bay had a phenomenal at bat, with two strikes on him and a pitch tailing low and away from him, he just flicked the bat and hit a soft-liner to left center. He didn't try to crush the ball (a la Kearns). He just made contact. By the time Dunn (and to a lesser extant Willie - who was playing on the other side of the second base bag in CF) got to the ball, Youk was more than half way to third. Great hitting approach by Bay and great running by Youk. The biggest problem wasn't that Dunn couldn't throw Youk out at third, it was that he didn't throw the ball immediately to second, which would have kept Bay at first.

So, instead of 1st and 3rd and one out, with Lowell (R) versus Tavarez (RHP) and a possible double-play situation, it's 2nd and 3rd and you almost have to walk Lowell to get to Veritek.

And please, stop ragging on Dunn taking the ball away from Willie on Tek's Sac Fly. Even if Willie catches that ball, there is no way he could have thrown Youk out at home. As great as Wee Willie Harris is, he has a below-average arm for an outfielder.

I think Acta got the message from the threat of being fired. In some respects, perhaps the organization just wanted to put out a rumor to get Acta on his toes. I think the players have definitely responded over the last two weeks. Hanrahan can not even throw the ball to the plate. There is something completely broken about his stuff. His fastball is too straight and his breaking ball does not even reach home plate. He has a good arm, I can see why the organization is reluctant to get rid of him. Too bad he can not get sent to the minors to work this stuff out.

It seems to me that the one thing which has not been tried....leaving the starting pitcher in for 9 innings. Everytime they take the starter out, all @#$%@ happens. They want the kids to gain experience...well, leave them in. They cannot be worse than the bull crap from the pen. Look at the history. You take the starter out, the hits, walks, wild pitches, etc. start coming. Personally, I would dispatch all of the current bullies to no higher than class A and bring up 8 new guys from any level, be they starters or relievers. Just consider the damage which is being done to the psyche of the current starters.

Hey gang...hmmm, 506, I'll have to reconsider. You've been hear a while an dyer posts are among those I look forward to most. Maybe it was their back-back-up s.s. who impressed me with his hustle...or the possibility that even at half-speed the Sox appeared to be....more dedicated....to playing the game as close to the "right" way as they could....Go Nats.........

I don't know how many of you noticed how well Saito has been pitching for the Sox. He was a lights out closer for the Dodgers for a couple of years until he got hurt last season. He is pitching well for the Sox as a set-up man (2.49 ERA, 24Ks in 25 IP and 3 saves, numbers better than Delcarmen), but they picked him up for nothing. Here's a guy that was a proven closer and where was Jimbo on that one last winter? You can't always blame Rizzo.

That presumes that they would have to come us for the same price.
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It does seem to be about FO cheapness. I mean look at the Sox, they have #5-#6 starters in Penny and Smoltz. All they had to do was pay $10.5 million and have an org that has a chance to win.

"Maybe it was their back-back-up s.s. who impressed me with his hustle"

Green played like he was in a tight race for an All Star starting role. That's definitely true. And Brad Penny was also impressive in his desire to mash the ball into a paste, perhaps hitting it in the process.

I think the Nats should cut Wells loose (18K v 18 BB, terrible), and keep their fingers crossed on Hanrahan and Colome. Colome is #2 in MLB in BABIP (.455) and Hanrahan is #14 (.419) (min. 12 IP). You can't discount the terrible defense behind those two, and BABIP should normalize closer to league average of .290. Bad defense and bad luck are not the same as a bad pitcher.

"Once they hit the innings in September, I don't think it sends the right message if you send the guy home or send him down because he's not going to pitch," Acta said. "I don't think our organization wants to be known for that. If a guy deserves to be in the big leagues, he should be in the big leagues."

JD Martin: Best record of all starting pitchers in the minors, AAA Syracuse. Also rehabbed from Tommy Johns.

Kearns needs to go so Dukes and Wee Willie get more time in the outfield. Willingham shows promise. One of the biggest problems, outside of our full of bullpen, is Ryan Zimmermans problems. Yep, he has a golden glove but his arm and hand have a disconnect. He has saved games yes, but lately in the last month, he has given the opposition runs by making bad throws and hitting into double plays. Thats almost a given. I'm happy when he just strikes out when someone is on first. That way, we still have a chance. There was all sorts of praise for our new batting coach in the beginning. Where is he now and why isn't he doing something for Zim? Even when there is no one on first base, Zim hits a grounder which would be another double play if someone was on first. Maybe he needs to just sit on the bench for a while. Wee Willie handles third, Wilingham, Dukes and Dunn (ouch) handle the outfield.

That presumes that they would have to come us for the same price.
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It does seem to be about FO cheapness. I mean look at the Sox, they have #5-#6 starters in Penny and Smoltz. All they had to do was pay $10.5 million and have an org that has a chance to win.

The Lerner's need to open the checkbook. Bottom 5 in payroll every year is ridiculous. In some cases in the first few years, they will need to overpay for some FA's, that is the price of doing business in MLB.

If they are afraid to spend money and not turn a profit then they are in the wrong business.

"And please, stop ragging on Dunn taking the ball away from Willie on Tek's Sac Fly. Even if Willie catches that ball, there is no way he could have thrown Youk out at home. As great as Wee Willie Harris is, he has a below-average arm for an outfielder."

Posted by: erocks33

Dunn was moving away from the play to the plate (more to first), Willie was at least facing in the right direction. The centerfielder should take precedence. In terms of throwing arms I would rather have Harris make the attempt 100 times out of 100 over Dunn in the outfield. Has Dunn thrown anybody out that you can remember?

"Kearns needs to go so Dukes and Wee Willie get more time in the outfield. Willingham shows promise."

Clearly, after relief pitching ... they need a bona fide everyday center fielder, with a good glove, hits for average and power. Harris is a utility player. Great because he swings between the infield and outfield. Dunn probably should move to 1st base or be traded along with others for a prospect like Maybin (fat chance of that).

Forget Boston's prodigy starting pitchers. The Nats have plenty and then some on the way.

They need a center fielder and a decision about who plays first base, Dunn or Nick Johnson. Dunn appears to cost as many runs as he garners with his bat. Whether it be in the outfield or at 1st base. It may hurt the batting order but NJ looks like the better call for 1st base.

Dunn, Willingham, pitching for a Maybin type CF might be a good call at this point.

"The Lerner's need to open the checkbook. Bottom 5 in payroll every year is ridiculous. In some cases in the first few years, they will need to overpay for some FA's, that is the price of doing business in MLB."

I think if the Lerners saw that it equated to attendance like last nights ... and sales of Nats merchandise they would gladly open it.

Keep in mind the business side is looking at the other teams in town, and especially the Redskins. As terrible as Snyder is at managing the Redskins roster (he is horrendous), he is exactly the opposite on the business end by being the very best in the NFL at selling the Redskins! Even over the Dal-ass Cowboys! The Lerners see that. "The man" Kasten must know that is who he is competing with ... Snyder. Right now he looks pretty lame.

Lerner is also competing with a guy who is a model franchise owner Ted Leonsis. Ted is very visible and even answers his own e-mails from fans unlike the Lerners who are hermits. Ted dumped a bunch of overpaid superstars, drafted wisely and rebuilt with younger guys and now every seat is sold out before next season even starts. Yeah, they got lucky in moving up in the draft to get Ovechkin, but the Nats have the same opportunity with having the #1 pick in the draft this year and next.

I figure this is something to address quietly and quickly. I don’t want to shoot down something that I didn’t even hear/see first-hand, but I notice that there’s some blog talk today referencing a report that Manny Acta is definitely staying on as Nats manager for the rest of the year.

That’s not true.

He’s been given no such assurances, and the team has not arrived at any definitely-yes-he’ll-be-here-in-September conclusion.

The Nats ought to start looking at Zinicola and Spradlin in addition to Clippard. I'm not so sure about Clippard because he has already been up here and with the Yankees. But maybe give him through the end of this year.

Okay, I'll rephrase that: That presumes that they would have come to us at ANY price.

I'm pretty sure that with Smoltz at least, it had little to do with the money. And, of course, he has yet to throw a pitch this year. We could indeed be paying him $5 million to rehab in Syracuse and our record would still be the same.

I won't even delve into the question of why we should have spent FA dollars on pitching. Which of our two starters would you send down in place of Penny and Smoltz?

As an aside - it is funny - my son keeps suggesting that I "open my checkbook" as well. I humbly mentioned that he might just want to get one of his own instead.

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And?

The Lerner's need to open the checkbook. Bottom 5 in payroll every year is ridiculous. In some cases in the first few years, they will need to overpay for some FA's, that is the price of doing business in MLB.

If they are afraid to spend money and not turn a profit then they are in the wrong business.

"Dunn was moving away from the play to the plate (more to first), Willie was at least facing in the right direction. The centerfielder should take precedence. In terms of throwing arms I would rather have Harris make the attempt 100 times out of 100 over Dunn in the outfield. Has Dunn thrown anybody out that you can remember?"

This debate is missing the point. No throw would have gotten the runner out, since Bard would have flubbed the tag, yet again.

And let's not forget Bard's non-throw to second or shot to the wrong side of the bag that gave them two stolen bases which I scored "DI" in my book for "defensive incompetence."

Section 506 - you are missing the point on the Dunn/Harris fly ball. The LF should defer to the CF, when the CF is calling for the ball. Plus, Willie was moving in on the ball and was positioning himself to make the throw. It's not relevant whether or not either OF could have thrown out the runner. It's fundamentals. Its the CF ball. Dunn is a Major Leaguer and if he doesn't know to get out of the way - that's on the coaching. Or maybe he's just dumb. I'm willing to buy that.

I suspect that Bard must now have a very high sabermetric ranking on "DI" as you now define it :)
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And let's not forget Bard's non-throw to second or shot to the wrong side of the bag that gave them two stolen bases which I scored "DI" in my book for "defensive incompetence."

"Dunn was moving away from the play to the plate (more to first), Willie was at least facing in the right direction. The centerfielder should take precedence. In terms of throwing arms I would rather have Harris make the attempt 100 times out of 100 over Dunn in the outfield. Has Dunn thrown anybody out that you can remember?"

I'd be happy with him hitting the cut-off man with something other than a parabolic soft-toss.

CBinDC, please don't take anything anyone on that station says as gosple. They don't know what they are talking about. That crowd last night clocked in at least 75% Sawx fans. But hey what do I know, I'm just a fan.

Sheehan is a Snyder tool! He wouldn't know a the difference between a fastball and curve even if it him square betwen his beedy eyes! F<<<TEM

Posted by: driley | June 24, 2009 11:46 AM
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None that I can remember. But neither has Willie, to my knowledge.

And I agree that all outfielders should defer to the CF. My opinion on that one play was that neither Dunn nor Willie heard each other since neither was used to playing in a full stadium at home.

BTW ... did we all note the history that took place last night? Approximately at 10:15pm on Tuesday, 6/23/2009, Austin Kearns got a base hit. Mark it down because that might be the last one ever as a National.

I think the stat to focus on was that the ballpark was zero percent empty.

Is it really preferable to have empty seats to having a visiting team's fans pay to sit in them - and presumably purchase concessions? Not for me.

I also note that it was nearly impossible to buy a ticket for the RedSox series without buying tickets to more games - either through ST plans or a "fan pack" - meaning that Stan has extracted maximum value from fans seeking the pleasure of seeing the Carmine Hose make their once-every-six-years' DC appearance.

Color me unworried - when this team is good enough, we'll fill up most of the park ourselves. Until then, out-of-towners' money is just as green as mine - and it's all supporting the home team.

Maybe my eyes need to be checked but I thought there were more Nats fans in attendance than everyone thinks. I definitely saw a lot more Nats paraphernalia than I expected. At least in the Infield Gallery, that is. My guess was 1/3 Nats, 2/3 Sawx (much like the way it's been in Balmer for the past 10 years or so).

I just don’t get what the Nats and Boswell and a few others see in Acta. They say that he’s patient, even-tempered and a good teacher, Maybe he’s an adequate in game tactician. But I’ve never heard anyone call him brilliant. I’ve never heard anyone say that he’s a great motivator. This team just never seems ready to play. Last night it was more clear to me than it ever was. Sure, Manny is not “the problem” - but I am not convinced that he is not part of the solution.

I know that Manny was saddled with a poor excuse for a bullpen. But Manny has misused it as well. Last night was another example of Manny swapping pitchers until he found one that would fail. I get pitch counts, but given that you’ve brought out Lannan for the 7th, he’s expended a half dozen “darts” to get warmed up. He got Drew, so, why not let him go one more batter, if he gets the out, give him a chance to finish the inning. But no, he removes Lannan for Taverez. Zimmerman boots a Youk grounder for Taverez (more on Zimm later). Taverez then allows a bloop single in front of Dunn (more on Dunn) and Youk goes 1st-to-3rd while Dunn loafs (loaves?) after the ball and Bay takes 2nd as Dunn lobs it in. They intentionally walk Lowell to set up the force and get Varitek to pop to Willie Harris, except Dunn steps in the way. Dunn catches the ball going away from the play and lobs the ball in. Now Manny goes to Villone for the lefty Ellsbury, who gets walked. Now instead of a lefty-lefty, we’re back to a lefty-righty matchup and Villone retires Green to end the debacle of an inning.

Ryan Zimmerman’s throwing problems continue to be an issue. And whether or not the Nats have adequate infield practice, the coaching staff has not been able to solve this issue. Zimm needs to step and throw. All season long problem, no coaching?

Dunn is a Major Leaguer. As such, he needs to hustle more and think more. The CF takes precedence over the LF. Especially if the LF is a weak fielding hump. Adam, get out of Willie’s way n fly balls, and if it is on the ground, charge the ball and fire it to the cutoff man. This is simple stuff. But apparently no one on the coaching staff feels the need to light a spark under Adam Dunn.

Josh Bard, for a catcher, is a pretty good hitter. That said, he needs to make a better effort to block pitches in the dirt.

Steven Shell was sent to AA to be stretched out to start...interesting hmmm. He was after all a starter his whole minor league career. Perhaps turning all these starters into relief pitchers isn't such a good idea. There is a learning curve you know. The veteran hacks on this team aren't doing all that great. Bring up more ex-starters and see what they can do. Can't hurt can it?

I thought the idea was that some of the veteran hacks WERE doing well - Beimel, Villone, MacDougal, Tavarez. The problem is finding three more of them - since they're clearly not rubbing off on Hanrahan, Colome, or Wells.

"is it true what Kevin Sheehan on WTEM is saying that the crowd last night was 85% "

Attendance was about 41500. I think we've guestimated the season ticket base around 12k? So if every single one of the remaining tickets were sold to a sawk fan, you'd also need to have about 50% of the season ticket holder sell their tickets to a sawks fan to get to 85%.

I just ran into Mike Lowell at a Subway (the food chain, not the Metro) next to Farragut Square. I was tempted to kneecap him to facilitate a Nick Johnson trade but then thought no, that's would a Phillies fan would do. Go Nats!

Was Rome the absolute ugliest City in the history of Architecture every single day until the last brick was laid in the last building?

Yes, of course it takes time to build a championship team. That's common sense, and I haven't seen a single person on any Nats forum dispute that. But some people take this to a whole other level, as if being unhappy with the team's performance this year means that you expect an instant world series or something.

This franchise is the laughingstock of baseball year after year, both on and off the field. Why is it so wrong to have a problem with that?

Is it really so wrong to expect a *decent*, *mediocre* team, rather than what we have now?

Is there some sort of rule somewhere that says that the Nationals HAVE to be HISTORICALLY BAD every single season until they are 100% set to make a World Series run, or else the "rebuilding plan" isn't working?

I suppose that being a decent team is pointless if you aren't going to win the World Series, right? You either have to be a World Series Champion or the worst team in Baseball, no room for any middle ground here?

What's so horrible about having a 70-75 win team that isn't a flat-out embarrassment and league-wide joke for a few years until they are ready to contend? Really, is wanting that truly as unreasonable as some people around here make it out to be?

Even your beloved Manny-ger said repeatedly throughout Spring Training - "This is the best, most talented team I've ever had in DC." This is a reasonable assessment. Almost to a Man(with a few exceptions), this team is more talented than the team we had last season. Yet they are on pace to lose MORE games than the horrible team we had last season did.

I understand that he is an absolutely wonderful person off the field, and for that reason nobody wants to hold him responsible for his team. Sure, he's not swinging the bat. He's not throwing the pitches. So what exactly is it that he does that makes him so ABSOLUTELY IRREPLACEABLE? What does he do that Jim Riggleman, or anyone else for that matter, can't do? Some of you act as if Manny getting fired would be the absolute worst thing that ever happens to the Nats, and I'm asking you..why? If he isn't responsible for the team's record, and he has no appreciable effect on the team's performance, then what's so special about him that we ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO KEEP HIM?

I believe that he does have an impact on the team in some form. and I believe that while he is a wonderful human being, he is not a good manager. Or at least he is not the right manager for this situation.

I read the Sports Bog entry where everyone was like "oh you are doing a wonderful job, keep it up" blah blah blah. No, he's NOT doing a wonderful job. He got a team that was clearly better and more talented than what he's had in the past, yet that team is playing WORSE baseball, and is on pace to lose MORE GAMES than any team he's managed, and infact, any team we've had since the team was in DC. The team's record has gotten WORSE every year he's been here. That's not doing a WONDERFUL JOB, I don't care how much you spin it.

You know who else is an absolutely wonderful person off the field? Joel Hanrahan. Austin Kearns is too.

and I'll say this, you say don't blame Manny, it's not his fault the player sucks. Ok. Even though Manny beat it into people's heads that this was the best team he's ever had, (yet they are playing WORSE than last year's team), I'll buy into your theory that we just have the worst players in the league and that's all there is to it.

GET RID OF THE PLAYERS. all of the players that you see fit to blame. scrap them and replace them with players who don't suck.

You say "it's not that easy, so-and-so has options, so-and-so, has a big contract, nobody will trade for so-and-so, I like so-and-so he's a nice guy". I say so what. Do it anyway. Cut them and eat the money if you have to. the Lerners are the richest owners in all of baseball, even more than Steinbrenner, and they have more money than God. they can afford to eat whatever is left of the 8m they owe Austin Kearns.

Either hold the players responsible, or hold the Management responsible. and replace whoever is at fault. But changes need to be made, and they need to be made quickly. Unless of course, everyone is simply content with being a laughingstock. Then by all means, don't change anything.

The team is a LAUGHINGSTOCK, and is the BIGGEST PUNCHLINE in ALL OF SPORTS.

Yet the fans here seem to be deathly afraid of holding ANYONE responsible for it.

Being happy is not necessarily unreasonable, nor is being unhappy. What is unreasonable, or at least futile, is expecting to convince one group or the other to change or defend their state of mind, IMO.

Being happy is not necessarily unreasonable, nor is being unhappy. What is unreasonable, or at least futile, is expecting to convince one group or the other to change or defend their state of mind, IMO.

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | June 24, 2009 2:04 PM

and yet every time someone expresses displeasure with the team's performance, someone expects to make them change or defend their state of mind.

What 1a said.
What would you have fans do, MrM? Call for Manny's job? Get rid of the bullpen-by-batting-practice? Call the owners cheap b*stards? Advise Zimmerman to move 1.5 inches closer to the plate? Stop coming to games? Rant on blogs?

Aside from literal torches and pitchforks, what exactly are you proposing?

"What would you have fans do, MrM? Call for Manny's job? Get rid of the bullpen-by-batting-practice? Call the owners cheap b*stards? Advise Zimmerman to move 1.5 inches closer to the plate? Stop coming to games? Rant on blogs?"

So, you're coming to a sports blog, and expecting everyone to agree with you?

***********
and yet every time someone expresses displeasure with the team's performance, someone expects to make them change or defend their state of mind.
Posted by: MrMadison | June 24, 2009 2:09 PM |

"So if every single one of the remaining tickets were sold to a sawk fan, you'd also need to have about 50% of the season ticket holder sell their tickets to a sawks fan to get to 85%."

That more than likely happened. Look at the sections that are largely season ticket holders - behind the dugouts, club level, IF Gallery - and look at how many of those seats had Red Sox fans in them last night. Those tickets were bought from season ticket holders on StubHub. Also, recall that there was a special STH presale for Red Sox game tickets. We all were allowed to buy an extra 4 tix for each of the three games. Most of those tickets surely got sold on StubHub too. Hey, I bought 4 extras myself for each of the three games in nicer locations than my regular season tickets. I'm using those for myself, and sold my regular seats on StubHub for twice face value, in less than 24 hours.

What would you have fans do, MrM? Call for Manny's job? Get rid of the bullpen-by-batting-practice? Call the owners cheap b*stards? Advise Zimmerman to move 1.5 inches closer to the plate? Stop coming to games? Rant on blogs?

Aside from literal torches and pitchforks, what exactly are you proposing?

Posted by: Sec3mysofa | June 24, 2009 2:09 PM

-------------

I'm not "proposing" anything. I was ranting. I said so at the beginning of my rant, I'm pretty sure.

I don't think that anyone on this blog can do anything that will make Manny any less of a bad manager, or make the team any less of a league-wide joke. I'm not that delusional.

Sec3mysofa - also, my rant was really less about the actual team's performance and Manny's Job Situation, and more about how this board deals with discussions about the team's performance and Manny's Job Situation.

just more or less some things that had been bothering me all season, is all.

What's that - being allowed to run the team into the ground? They could get a high school kid to fill out the lineup card, and a third grader to count pitches. You could call them interim and they wouldn't even care.

Re: percentage of attendance last night. I think there was a LOT of dual loyalty going on. The guy to my left was wearing a Red Sox t-shirt and rooting for the Nats. I felt like I also saw plenty of "Nats only" fans out there (one guy was wearing an Armas t-shirt!). I'd say 75/25 max.

Two things that I did notice. First, it seemed like every time the "Let's Go Red Sox!" chant went out, it was immediately countered with "Let's Go Nationals!" in equal to plus volume (at least that's how it sounded in the Gallery Seats). Second, once the game got to the requisite 8th inning part when everyone starts leaving, it seemed like a lot of the Nats fans stuck around to the end. (Funny/sad looking around the stadium after the exodus and thinking "This is what the 'normal' crowd looks like").

We'll be back tonight, screaming our butts off (and we'll be in a heavy Sox area). We are among the folks that sold our tickets on StubHub. Between the 4 last night (we sat in our regular seats and sold the special buy seats), 2 tonight (using the other 2) and 4 tomorrow night (which went to friends for a very small profit), we made enough extra to cover the cost of both nights' tickets for us, our Metro costs, food at the game and some extra spending money.

The TEXTBOOK loss orchestrated by the KNOW Nothing..... Predictable Robot named Manny Actless...........He HOOKS a starter who is doing well after 100 pitches....and then the DELUDED Robot turns the game over to the Keystone PIG pen....and just like last night...they are generally ROADKILL for the opposition hitters....and surprise surprise ...ANOTHER LOSS on their "Run to 121"......