First of all this is completely plagiarized hairbrained, Secondly it is a fear mongering inaccurate litany of lies, half-truths and ignorant propaganda.Only the most childish and ignorant among us would be taken in by such drivel. I am sure this plays well in the polyester palaces of trailerpark USA, but for the rest of the world this would be funny if it was not so insidious and hateful.

If we are talking Western Moral values and Christianity no problem; circumcision, Leviticus an eye for an eye etc... Being able to find fault in imaginary boogie men from foreign places and failing to see those in your back yard is not elucidation it is myopic ignorance.

I disagree strongly with both RH and eg's position (in a constructive and friendly way, of course) that hairbraine's latest contribution neither deserves nor requires a serious response.

Before I go further I must state the obvious: there is much I disagree with in this post.

1)Gay bashing is much more prevalent in the states then you imply (check out hate crime stats please)

2)Hairbraine makes the common mistake of equating the beliefs and practices of a religions adherents with the actual doctrines of the faith. Thus the KKK claims to be comprised of good christian Americans, Hitler's soldiers had "god with us" on their belt buckles, and Catholic priests have abused children all over the world. Yet we don't then say that Christianity is by definition then a religion of cross burning, genocidal pedophiles (although I think some North American Indians might disagree).

2)He both mis-characterizes and mis-understands both honour killings and female genital mutilation (FGM).

3)And I think this is the greatest flaw of Hairbranes post - the obvious intent to oversimplify and shock by use of language and violent imagery. He might have been a lot more convincing if he had simply presented his opinions on this matter in a more calm manner.

Now here's where I disagree with RH and e.g.

1) Since September 11, there has been a well-documented effort by everyone from the President of the United States on down to distinguish between terrorism and Islam. We can recognize that because terrorist claim Islam as their religion, not all Muslims are therefore terrorists.

This distinction was and remains necessary. Yet in many people's desire to not paint with a broad brush, there has crept in an aversion to any criticism of Islamic societies around the world.

For this reason, guys, we need to engage posts like the one above. For while we may disavow its general tone and conclusions, there is enough truth in it to be dangerous, and convince others that the conclusions are likewise true.

Unfortunately, this post is more guilty of crudity and faulty logic than it is of "lies, lies, lies."

What was true in this awful mess of a post:

1)Gay bashing is actually a great deal more violent in some islamic societies. The UN has documented the dramatic upswing of the torture and murder of Iraqi gays and lesbians by Shia militias since 2003.

Furthermore, with the exception of Turkey, homosexuality is illegal in all nations where Islam is the main religion. Punishments range from whipping and caning to jail time. In Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Sudan, Yemen, UAE, Pakistan and Mauritania, homosexuality is a capital crime. Since 1979 Iran has executed an estimated 4000 gays and lesbians.

When challenged by international organizations and human right's groups muslim nations responded by claiming these laws are necessary to preserve Islamic morality and virtue.

2)FGM - is not, as RH pointed out, prescribed Islamic law or doctrine. It is, however, considered "law by custom". Because the practice is linked to notions of female purity (the clitoris is seen as a female penis) women who have not had their genitals "purified" by this practice have extreme difficulty ever getting married in the cultures where this is a normative practice.

Oh here's a nice little bit of detail from a UNICEF report: FGM is "normally performed by traditional practitioners with crude instruments, such as knives, razor blades and broken glass, usually without anesthetics."

Furthermore the WHO says: "It is mostly carried out on young girls between infancy and age 15 years."

Even where islamic clerics make pronouncements against the practice, the laity continue to believe it is a vital and necessary religious ritual.

Due to its presence in immigrant communities, FGM has indeed appeared in Western Europe, Canada and the United States.

3) Sharia law. The most powerful and influential Canadian province (Ontario) has recently - at the request of islamic organizations - seriously considered the enactment of sharia family law for all muslims in the province. That means in issues of divorce, child custody, marital property rights the Canadian legal code could not be applied to those of the Islamic faith. Women's groups were only one of the many organizations that vehemently opposed this action.

Additionally there have been more than one islamic cleric in Britain (the BBC should have the details) who has publicly called for sharia law being the only law on the island. Not likely now, but with demographic shifts, such statements may be linked to the growth of right-wing nationalist parties in England.

4) Honour Killings - not quite as hairbraine described, but they are distressingly common and - from my perspective - for such little cause. These too have appeared among immigrant communities in Western Europe.

Listen, I'm going to stop here. You get the idea. The irony of this is that I love Islamic art, architecture, literature and history. Yet our fear of being labeled "ethnocentric", "racist" or "relativist" must not scare us from pointing out those aspects of a society that are flawed.

I've said it before, I look to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, instead of a religious book, and by that standard many islamic societies need work.

Hairbrane neglected to mention a few things which complicate his post. The practices he railed against are not exclusive to Muslim societies. The christian community in Egypt engages in FGM and honour killings take place all over the world. Religious law/morality enforced by the state has also been tried in Europe and North America.

In conclusion (whew, thanks for reading this far): Hairbrane's post speaks to a serious issue facing the secular democracies of Europe and North America. Namely, how does one reconcile the rights and priviledges of a secular democrary with religious beliefs and perspectives that view society at large as evil and corrupt. The matter is complicated when these religious perspectives are protected by the very society they oppose.

Because the issues are important, I feel it vital to engage (regardless of how tiresome) with posts such as this one. The fear of losing cultural dominance is real, and felt by millions. Posts like this one, that contain elements of truth must not be the only voice out there. Their ability to influence the lazy and ill-informed must not be left unchallenged. Sometimes context and perspective are necessary.

Remember, just because these practices exist doesn't mean they always have and always will.

Yet, just because a practice is from another culture doesn't mean you must approve.

A civil dialogue will usually reveal that the commonalities between any two groups largely outweigh the differences.

Even as an exercise in baiting his post contained, however, enough truth to be harmful.

As an addendum to my previous note on the matter:

I am of course not implying that all muslims engage in such behaviours. Just as not all southern Americans were involved in lynchings in the 1920s and 1930s, so too not all muslims engage in such actions. It only requires the actions of a relative few to go unchallenged by a society, for the entire society to be besmirched by the actions of the few.

I don\'t see how any person can even think for half a second that muslims are not crazy extremists, remember 911 they flew planes into buildings and killed innocent people they blow up buses and strap dynamite to their bodies, suicide bombings. remeber any of that? that is all islam and muslims. when was the last time you heard about a christian blowing themselves up suicide style?

I don't understand why you guys are defending them ? they hate you and want to kill you they treat women like shit they kill each other and us every time they can why are you defending them? what good has muslims done all i know is death and hatred

I'll give you this: when you say that all you know is hatred, I don't have a hard time believing that you're telling the truth.

We are not defending what has been appropriately called Islamo-Fascism. You are correct to point out that their views on woman's rights and our "Western" society are rather extreme and can easily translate into violent action. Indeed they probably do hate me and would not be sad to hear of my death.

What follows is the important distinction you seem to be missing, so "heads up": Not all Muslims hold these views or share a similar penchant for suicide bombing.

I'm making an effort to be civil here, because, frankly, your post comes across as either willfully ignorant or embarrassingly ignorant - I really can't decide which. If the former, then you deserve both ridicule and contempt. If the latter then you only deserve to be ignored.

For an exercise, let's switch things around and test the following theory: Christians are an evil and murderous people who delight in the death of non-Christians. The evidence?

1)Cortez slaughters tens of thousands of Aztecs, while still calling himself a good Christian.

2)Good Christians owned and trafficked in slaves for over two hundred years of American history.

3)Christians formed the Ku Klux Klan and beat, terrorized and murdered untold numbers of African Americans.

4) Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants murdered thousands of each other over the last century of Irish politics.

5) English Christians believed it their God-given duty and right to colonize vast territories, enslaving, exploiting and dis-enfranchising literally hundreds of millions of people.

6) Hitler's army ("God with us" on their belt buckles) largely considered itself Christian, and fought the Americans and British who also considered themselves Christians. You could say that the Second World War was, in a certain sense, a war between Christians.

See Victoria, by selectively picking my evidence and applying it broadly to include all Christians I've painted a rather bleak view of Christianity.

Regarding woman's rights: all across North American there are many Christian sects who believe that women must wear dresses and shouldn't cut their hair. Those who break these rules are going to hell, because they have the spirits of whores for dressing like men. These women are not allowed to have jobs - their place being at home, raising children.

Right, now according to your logic Victoria, I can claim the exact things for all Christians as you do for all Muslims.

The problem, however, is that you are able to distinguish between the actions of some and the beliefs of the majority, because you are familiar with the culture. You understand that every small-minded backwoods whacko of a preacher doesn't speak for everyone in America.

It's the same thing for Islam, but we are unequipped to recognize (due to our fundamental ignorance of Islam) when we are listening to the beliefs of a lunatic fringe or the majority.

So yes Victoria, there is a violent Islamic lunatic fringe.

What, however, we are defending, Victoria is the majority of Muslims from being labeled as nut-job terrorists. Just as all Christians don't play with snakes, so too all Muslims don't play with bombs.

If you want to fixate on those who want to "kill you", go right ahead. Just don't be stupid enough to think that all do. You really aren't that significant.