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You know what I'm trying to puzzle out is where Moira Queen ever showed herself to be an elitist snob? I'm sorry, but I've never seen that with the character. Even the whole thing with Oliver's baby mama was more her recognizing that her son wasn't ready to be a father and securing a future for the grandkid as well as giving her son time to mature.

Exactly. Don't get the whole argument at all. She certainly didn't mind Oliver dating Laurel when they were in college, so why have an issue with them hanging out in school?

Originally Posted by shadow4486

I think that this is wrong because Felicity is so much more than what she was as Palmer's secretary/assistant/lover. Now she's running a company by day, and running Team Arrow by night. I don't think she cannot clear the audio stuff by herself, I just think she doesn't have the time. As you could see from the energy drink scene, Holt said it took a long time to render and she got there just in time. To me, that means that decoding/decrypting/cleaning up the audio was not a "click, click, copy and paste" type of situation. So I don't fault her for taking it to the guy who hipped her to the recording in the first place. And it helps that he's a tech whiz. Not a big deal.

But that's the 3rd time in as many episodes that Felicity has gone to Curtis for help and not once did she say it was because she didn't have time to do it herself. In fact, there were a couple of occasions where it appeared like she couldn't follow what he was saying. But that's ok. Like I said, nothing wrong with some problems being beyond Felicity's intellect. The issue is that the show can't seem to make a decision about how smart she really is and how far her expertise extends.

Exactly. Don't get the whole argument at all. She certainly didn't mind Oliver dating Laurel when they were in college, so why have an issue with them hanging out in school?

But that's the 3rd time in as many episodes that Felicity has gone to Curtis for help and not once did she say it was because she didn't have time to do it herself. In fact, there were a couple of occasions where it appeared like she couldn't follow what he was saying. But that's ok. Like I said, nothing wrong with some problems being beyond Felicity's intellect. The issue is that the show can't seem to make a decision about how smart she really is and how far her expertise extends.

It is kind of inconsistent because in the comics Mr Terrific the character that Curtis is based on is one of the smartest people in the DC Universe.

They have to make Curtis Holt smarter than Felicity but the things that they have her not understand is stuff that she should be really comfortable with. If it was something that didn't relate to computers I could believe her not knowing what he was talking about.

It's the "too many pots on the oven" syndrome which now appears to be seeping into Flash, now that they need to get Captain Cold and Hawkgirl fleshed out before LOT launches. Overall, it was an entertaining episode. In terms of all the divergent pieces moving together in sync -- not so much, narratively speaking.

That's why the 'where is Ray' and 'what to do about Sara' subplots seems to exist almost separately from Arrow. Because in essence they're LOT prequel story arcs inserted into Arrow. As a result, they appear disjointed from the rest of the Arrow. Getting Sara alive had to be done for the sake of LOT, and even if Ollie himself had suggested they resurrect her, it would still be a wonky subplot. It's unfortunate that the Lance family esp. Laurel is stuck with the thankless job of being at the epicentre of it. Damned if you, damned if you don't it seems.

Ollie being judgmental, while irritating, unfortunately is no longer surprising to me. He really doesn't have a leg to stand on, either with keeping secrets or passing judgment on how people should "feel". How many times are we supposed to give him a pass for his judgmental behaviour, just because of his exile experiences? It's not a pass-for-life and after 3 1/2 seasons, what's good for the goose is good for the gander too. And they were starting the patching-up process in the hospital hallway when soulless Sara interrupted it with her hospital attack. They resolved their friction at the campaign office, so as a viewer I'm ready for them to move on to a less melodramatic phase in their friendship.

In Ollie and Laurel's two main scenes (the blow-up and the make-up?), they both made points. I would tend to side with the ROT (rest of Team Arrow), since a) Ollie is no longer the prime shot-caller and b) the times ROT have kept the mission alive while Ollie was dead or on his sanity vacation have earned them a voice in how things are to be run. The Ollie-tatorship is over, has been since his S3 "death", and it is about time he recognized this.

He's also suffered some characterization blowback, thanks to the need to get Sara back to life for LOT. It's the disease v. symptom situation here, with the characters themselves paying a price for being wedged into LOT prequel scenes that have minimal connection to the actual series.

Felicity's scenes with Curtis may as well have been on Flash, since they didn't really have an impact on what was going on with the team, Sara or Constantine.

Me neither. And it's not the first time she made this sort of comments. I remember her "fantasy island" line from season 2.
And her "I can't believe he is marrying her" from last season.
Felicity has issues about these things.

Anyway. Good episode. I liked it.

Glad to see the Oliver/Laurel friendship back on track.

I always roll my eyes at the jealous comments from Felicity too. However, I can't entirely blame her because in my eyes, Oliver has been very fickle in the past. Pre-Island cheating aside, we know that he falls in 'love' quickly and seems to always have a revolving door of women in his life. As we know from the Island flashbacks, he got stranded on a seemingly deserted island and STILL managed to find a girlfriend. And it would seem that he may have a second island girlfriend. Then when he came back, he 'loved' Laurel but managed to date Helena and McKenna over the course of about 6 months... maybe 9 months? and then back to Laurel. And then Isobel, Sara... so I can see it being a bit of an insecurity. However, hopefully that will eventually be addressed and either the insecurities will be worked through or it will break the pair up.

As for the discussion about Moira, I got the feeling in season one that Moira actually encouraged the friendship with the Lances, because she wanted Oliver (and Thea) to have the influence of more down to Earth people. I got the feeling that she respected Quentin and Dinah and believed that Laurel was a good influence for Oliver. So while she certainly had a life of privilege, I don't believe she looked down on them for being less affluent.

And onto my thoughts about the episode: I loved almost all of it. The only bad is that Quentin is back to being a jerk to his daughter and complaining about her keeping secrets while in practically the same breath pushing Oliver to keeping his association with Darhk secret. I hope that this latest 'secrets and lies' plotline isn't drawn out because they do tend to get tiresome.

And onto the good: The friendship moments with Oliver and Laurel were wonderful. I'm glad that she finally called him out on being a bad friend to her. And it was nice to see them working together to get Sara's soul back.

I loved the ways in which Thea and Laurel supported each other this episode too-Thea standing up for Laurel when Oliver was willing to sever ties with her for his campaign. Laurel telling Thea that if the only cure for Sara was for Sara to kill Thea, that it was no cure at all. That was a wonderful moment.

John Constantine was very enjoyable, though his presence on the island was a little contrived but whatever. I do hope that they bring him back at some point because it was a joy to see him again and he actually fit in quite well with the frameworks of the episode and I liked watching him bounce off the rest of the team.

Having Diggle and Quentin working together was a nice surprise team up for the episode too. I really liked that Quentin stuck his neck out to get information on Diggle's brother and the moment when he handed over the file was a nice moment between the two. I'm not sure that I buy the information Darhk gave Quentin though. I think there's more to the story and we'll likely discover that this season.

I really hope that Curtis gets off Felicity island and has the chance to interact with others on the show as well too.

Very enjoyable episode. It has been long time since "Arrow" kept me fully interested while watching.

I haven't been familiar with John Constantine before, never watched his show, but he fitted surprisingly well both in the Sara's resurrection story and in the flashback (pretty convenient, though, that Oliver met him on the island ). A lot has happened in this episode but it was paced rather well, at least had much better flow than many stories they served us in the season 3.

I liked that they put some focus on the relationship between characters - loved Oliver's and Laurel's scenes, that they finally reached some stable level of the understatement, have honest conversation about the past events, addresing some burning issues. It was also great to see them together as the two people the most close to Sara. Also a clear sign that Lances and Queens fates are entwined for good. I forgive the fact that with the resurrection stuff the rest of the believability of the show fell out of the window for the sake of two facts - it erases the whole Thea-killed-Sara drama and delivered the scene with the Lances, again together (not for long, though, since Sara will leave to LOT).

Lance's and Diggles team-up was something which was totally unexpected but worked very well. I like when they do not the most obvious things - it brings back the good memories of some plottwist from the season 1 & 2. How they made out of the mess was pretty naive, but well - it has become clear that there is no episode which can be resolved without because of reason moments. And also without Oliver having his ass kicked, this time by soulless Sara.

As always, I enjoyed brother-sister scenes (right, Ollie, you can't criticize others for having secrets) and Quentin-Oliver moments (lol, he really has his own parking space in the Arrowcave - isn't that cute?).

Short break for Lance's quotes of the week (not so much this time, sadly).

"You got to admire her consistency. Keeps her death secret from me, her resurrection secret from you."

"Am I ok? I think there are certain situations in life where the word "ok" does not apply." [I totally agree!]

"All right, keep an eye out for rent-a-cops, 'cause it wouldn't do my career prospects too much good."

Did you notice Lance eyeing suspiciously Darhk magic box? I also liked their converstation and Darhk throwing that piece of information about Andy Diggle. Still don't believe that it's going to be the end of this story. There should be something more to it, otherwise it would seem to be a pretty wasted one after such a set up since the season 1. On the other hand... not everything is always as it seems. It would be rather disheartening to Dig if it was really the truth about his brother. Btw. did Lyla and little Sara dissapeared for good?

So, Oliver tattoos are magical or something? Wonder what he is going to use them for!

As for Felicity's comment about Oliver's acquaintance not being a beautiful woman - I think it's purpouse was to make fun of the fact that this apparently desinhabitant island was full of people. And two of them were Ollie's love interests. Quite true he is not the man, who is the most stable in the feelings - to be put delicately.

So far I like the direction this season is going. It's not ideal, it still has plot holes etc. but is enjoyable and for the time being without love traingles drama (What is happening? Did they really acknowledge they mistakes?).

The Olicity scene. Was the erotic hand rubbing really necessary when discussing serious matters like Sara's resurrection and Ray's death? Felt more like a wink to the Olicity fans than anything organic.

Well, as the audience the Olicity scene likely was aimed at, the hand rubbing was to me a sign of closeness and giving comfort and support while they talked about things that were emotionally painful. I didn't get a whit of "erotic" out of it but hey, if it turned you on, more power to you.

I love the scene that’s the opposite of 2x14 and Laurel saying “I love your family, I always have. I just wish you’d sometimes give a damn about mine.”

The problem I had with that line was it rang false. Oliver has constantly since he got back from the island shown again and again how much Laurel's family means to him. Season one he abandoned Diggle a couple times putting Laurel ahead of him and always was trying to keep her out of harms way. He took the verbal abuse Quentin heaped on him without ever attacking him back and tried to make peace with him through his alter ego. Season two showed the depth of his feelings for Sara. By season three the years he'd spent building up a relationship with Quentin had paid off only for him to be devastated when QL turned on him. And the reason he got Quentin's backlash was because he was honoring a promise to Laurel to not tell her father. He devoted all his resources trying to find out who killed Sara, and no he did not support Laurel when she wanted him to train to be a vigilante because he cared too much about what her family would think not to mention worrying about her life.

He has shown again and again and again that he does care deeply about her family. He told Quentin he loved his family and it earned him a smack across the face. Still, he never gave up on rebuilding that relationship with QL. He keeps going to him. Kept trying to get some kind of approval or support. Then when he found out about Lances deal with the devil, while angry, he's still supporting him. Is not rubbing his mistake in his face, is helping him with missions from DD and is respecting his request to not tell Laurel.

It's completely untrue to say that Oliver hasn't cared about Laurel's family. The real subtext is why don't you support ME more?

I really put the burden of that back on Laurel. Why has she been such a jerk to him since he returned? He's not said or done anything judgmental toward any of them since his return but all of them act like he has when it's the team that has been constantly belittling him and putting him in his place and treating him like they are doing a favor allowing him back when they are the ones that begged for his help.

The closest thing to support that Oliver has received was Laurel wanting to whisk Thea away to a spa and he finds out that was a complete lie. Laurel has not showed him an ounce of genuine warmth or kindness at all until the end of this episode. She's been all crossed arms, frowns and bristling indignation. What should he have been doing differently?

Still, I'm really enjoying how emotionally strong and secure Oliver is now. He IMO could have justifiably told Laurel off and even taken his campaign consultant's advice and distanced himself from Laurel but instead, he tells her he wants to keep her in his life and be a better friend.

The show runners commented that he's just a much happier person now and because of that, he wants to forgive and move forward.

I really hope that Laurel is able to find her chill in the future and keep it because I can't handle many more special episodes where Laurel is all fixed now! Let's try to keep her from acting like a moron in the first place, ok?

I don't see you asking for this with Oliver and anyone else.

Well that's not true. I pointed out and complained about Oliver's constant regressions in season three multiple times, it's just so did lots of other people. Makes me harping on it unneeded. Plus, he hasn't regressed since so no need to complain about him this season.

In my review I also mentioned not liking Thea going back to suicidal thoughts but they don't devote whole episodes to fixing her. Maybe they should but since I don't recall her getting one, it's hard to complain about sitting through another one.

I guess I had too high of an expectation with Constantine. I wanted to see more magic on the island and more darkness and turmoil freeing Sara. After what Oliver and Laurel went through and showing them wanting to rebuild their friendship, he still is lying to her. I hope he comes clean soon that he is using her father to get closer to Darkk which could get him killed.

I did feel that Felicity's comments about the women on the island with Oliver came across as a jealous. I'm not sure if that was their intention but that is how I took it.

Another episode reinforced my positive feelings about Team Diggle. I really hope we get to see just the 3 of them in action as often as possible.

I know plenty of people have already mentioned this, but for heaven's sake, does Laurel think before she speaks? This episode was so great, and I feel that each of Laurel's lines gave the episode an overall comedic addition that would have been otherwise absent. She has no reason for legitimately being made at Oliver, nor does she have any reason to expect that Oliver would see her as an equal, because she's NOT his equal! I just felt it super funny whenever she got mad. Usually when Oliver gets quiet it is because he understands somebody's anger, but this time I feel like it was just because he realized that nothing he could say would get past Laurel's thick skull. Ahhahahaha other than that, AMAZING EPISODE.

Very enjoyable episode. It has been long time since "Arrow" kept me fully interested while watching ...
So far I like the direction this season is going. It's not ideal, it still has plot holes etc. but is enjoyable and for the time being without love traingles drama (What is happening? Did they really acknowledge they mistakes?).

Maybe they have acknowledged them. Could they actually be scaling back the melodrama in Arrow?

Who'd have thought that, between Arrow and Flash, it's currently Arrow(!) that's relatively free of love triangles, shipping, etc. Olicity exists but it doesn't consume the scenery in S4. Laurel and Ollie have mended their friendship to some degree and Thea so far has much bigger problems than finding a soul mate. Meanwhile on Flash, we've got Caitlin-Jay percolating, Cisco-Kendra on deck and the dawn of Barry-Iris-Patty. [It must be said, the way Flash is handling romance re: Barry and Patty is refreshingly believable and more realistic (so far). They are wiping. the. floor. with anything that resembles romance on Arrow -- Olicity included. Would have been helpful if Arrow had taken notes here, but I think the milk has already spilled on this front ]

Maybe they're heeding some of the more sensible advice and are finally putting the lingering melodrama they've neglected to put out, such as the Quentin-Ollie vent-o-rama, Diggle's now-resolved mystery around his brother and HIVE ... and the stale multi-season tension and rehashed beefs between Ollie and Laurel? I liked their final campaign office scene, it looked to me like they are finally putting the pointless melodrama in their friendship behind them. (Maybe there are viewers who want to see them hold hazy grudges against each other for the series' run. I'm not one of them.) I'm optimistic they're leaving it behind them, it would be a positive move for both of them. It's time Arrow's characters get off the CW melodrama carousel-to-nowhere and leave that soapy crap to where it belongs: on SV DVD's! There's about 7-8 seasons' worth of Clana, if you love that stuff. Have at it.

Where there are plot holes on Arrow in S4 (and in future, on Flash), more than likely we will find a LOT prequel scene masquerading as a show-relevant subplot. I'm more convinced this will turn out to be the case until LOT gets off the ground next year.

Well that's not true. I pointed out and complained about Oliver's constant regressions in season three multiple times, it's just so did lots of other people. Makes me harping on it unneeded. Plus, he hasn't regressed since so no need to complain about him this season.

I was talking about regressions. Laurel hasn't regressed, so I don't know what that has to with what I said. I don't see you constantly hating on Oliver's dumber and worse actions, is what I'm saying.

In my review I also mentioned not liking Thea going back to suicidal thoughts but they don't devote whole episodes to fixing her. Maybe they should but since I don't recall her getting one, it's hard to complain about sitting through another one.

Thea hasn't shown herself being suicidal, but complaining about an aspect of the character isn't the same as actively insulting a character.

I know plenty of people have already mentioned this, but for heaven's sake, does Laurel think before she speaks? This episode was so great, and I feel that each of Laurel's lines gave the episode an overall comedic addition that would have been otherwise absent. She has no reason for legitimately being made at Oliver, nor does she have any reason to expect that Oliver would see her as an equal, because she's NOT his equal! I just felt it super funny whenever she got mad. Usually when Oliver gets quiet it is because he understands somebody's anger, but this time I feel like it was just because he realized that nothing he could say would get past Laurel's thick skull. Ahhahahaha other than that, AMAZING EPISODE.

She's more than his equal morally and psychologically. She may not be physically, but she's superior to him in every way that matters.

I'll admit, I was really looking forward to this episode. I agree with a lot of other posters, the episode felt like they had to many irons in the fire with HIVE, Sara, Ray and bringing in Constantine. I wasn't really convinced with how Oliver met John and how it felt like regaining Sara's soul seemed like it was almost hardly worth Constantine's time. He pops in, makes a few wise cracks, mumbles a few words, they have a small skirmish and poof, Sara's back with her soul. Especially the "fighting for Sara's soul" felt really underwhelming so that I ask why isn't it done more often as easy as it was to regain Sara's soul. I did enjoy Laurel and Oliver reconnecting and addressing some of the bigger issues the two of them had with each other. Quentin and Diggle was enjoyable, not quite as much as Oliver and Laurel but still enjoyable, not sure I'm convinced about Andy's involvement with drug trafficking. Felicity and Curtis I accepted but could've just as well done without, nothing really riveting about their subplot this season as far as I'm concerned. Thea wasn't really suicidal in my eyes but very accepting that she had to die in order to help Sara, she just came over as much to passive in helping Sara overcome her bloodlust compared to how hands on active she's been since leaving Starling City with Malcolm during the mirakuru attack, it just didn't jive with me. Maybe a few Nyssa/Malcolm confrontational scenes could've improved the episode. jk.

I was[n't] talking about regressions. Laurel hasn't regressed, so I don't know what that has to with what I said. I don't see you constantly hating on Oliver's dumber and worse actions, is what I'm saying.

Oliver's regressions made him make dumb choices and behave stupidly as if he'd never learned the lessons to stop the stupid already. So yes, me complaining about his regressions of character, is me hating on his dumb choices and dumb actions.

Thea hasn't shown herself being suicidal, but complaining about an aspect of the character isn't the same as actively insulting a character.

Twice now she has put herself in a position where she is waiting to be killed and not trying to survive. Nice that she hasn't been trying to self harm beyond that but telling two separate people on two separate occasions, go ahead and kill me, I won't stop you screams death wish to me. And if she isn't suicidal and thus needing some real treatment and help, then her actions make her look real dumb and yes, I am complaining about them and hating that as a characteristic. She's being stupid. Is that a real enough insult?

So is Quentin for not telling Laurel about DD but I guess he doesn't want her judgment and I guess that is an accepted reason for not facing up to messing up in the Lance family so, oh well.

Oliver's regressions made him make dumb choices and behave stupidly as if he'd never learned the lessons to stop the stupid already. So yes, me complaining about his regressions of character, is me hating on his dumb choices and dumb actions.

Oliver's dumb decisions have nothing to do with regression. You just showed the difference again between how you treat Laurel and how you treat Oliver. You call Oliver's decisions and actions dumb, but actually call Laurel herself a moron, when Oliver's actions and decisions have consistently been dumber and caused more damage than hers. You do this a lot. Oliver and Sara's actions have caused worse and been dumber. But you attack Laurel for lesser actions. I just went through a whole season of posts in the love hate episode threads to corroborate your claim and in not a single one that I saw did you once criticize Oliver's poor decision making. But through all this you were arguing against Laurel in her thread. If you're going to attack one character, there's no reason to not attack another one for actions that were just as bad or worse.

Twice now she has put herself in a position where she is waiting to be killed and not trying to survive. Nice that she hasn't been trying to self harm beyond that but telling two separate people on two separate occasions, go ahead and kill me, I won't stop you screams death wish to me. And if she isn't suicidal and thus needing some real treatment and help, then her actions make her look real dumb and yes, I am complaining about them and hating that as a characteristic. She's being stupid. Is that a real enough insult?

So is Quentin for not telling Laurel about DD but I guess he doesn't want her judgment and I guess that is an accepted reason for not facing up to messing up in the Lance family so, oh well.

There's nothing dumb about being willing to sacrifice yourself for someone else. It's not a death wish. It's remorse and guilt, something someone like Oliver couldn't possibly understand.