From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 1 11:59:25 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA12251; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:51:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from polaris.azstarnet.com (polaris.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA12222 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:51:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from Pbish (dialup20ip35.tus.azstarnet.com [169.197.39.163]) by polaris.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA06058 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:50:36 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199801011950.MAA06058@polaris.azstarnet.com>
X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/
From: "Bob Bish"
Organization: http://www.humvee.com
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:50:35 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: address forwarding
Reply-to: bish@azstarnet.com
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I have an address bouncing that doesn't appear on the list. I suspect it's
someone using a forwarding service. This happened once before and it took me 3
weeks of sending test messages to list addresses until one bounced the same way
as the culprit.
The problem this time is that this address is bouncing with one of those
"could not deliver for 1 week and 1 day" messages. If I try to send test
messages in this case, I'd have to wait 8 days on each one to see if it
bounces.
Any suggestion for weeding out the culprit address?
...Bob
http://www.humvee.com
From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 1 12:29:25 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA14498; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:20:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA14489 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:20:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44])
by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id OAA24034
for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:19:32 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199801012019.OAA24034@quilla.tezcat.com>
Subject: Re: address forwarding
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 98 14:19:39 -0600
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997
From: Adam Bailey
To:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On 1/1/98 6:50 AM, Bob Bish wrote...
> Any suggestion for weeding out the culprit address?
Assuming your system gives you the headers of the message that bounced,
look at those to see any intervening systems that the message passed
through between you and the address that's bouncing. Then search your
list for that domain.
--
Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously;
adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive."
adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard
Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb
From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 1 12:44:25 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA15423; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:40:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from polaris.azstarnet.com (polaris.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA15411 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:39:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: from Pbish (dialup20ip35.tus.azstarnet.com [169.197.39.163]) by polaris.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA17460 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:39:26 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199801012039.NAA17460@polaris.azstarnet.com>
X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/
From: "Bob Bish"
Organization: http://www.humvee.com
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:39:26 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: address forwarding/found it!
Reply-to: bish@azstarnet.com
In-reply-to: <199801012019.OAA24034@quilla.tezcat.com>
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
> > Any suggestion for weeding out the culprit address?
I found it through http://www.netforward.com. It was an alias someone had
set up through this service. Fortunately, there's a feature with which one can
search on the alias address and come up with the real one.
...Bob
From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 1 16:14:25 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA28573; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:14:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sky.net (solar.sky.net [209.90.0.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id QAA28546 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:14:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sky.net.sky.net (ts-3-ip61.kc.sky.net [209.90.4.253])
by sky.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA09131
for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:13:27 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980101181236.00800970@solar.sky.net>
X-Sender: price@solar.sky.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 18:12:36 -0600
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
From: Paul Allen Rice
Subject: Question about (Message status - opened)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
This kinda goes along with the vacation message problem we sometimes seem to have on lists.
How should I handle stuff like this....
>From: Mailer-Daemon@unicorn.co.za
>To: owner-circlejoke@UserHome.com
>Subject: Message status - opened>
>
>The message that you sent was opened by the following:
> wanderso
>Information about your message:
> Subject: Welcome to circlejoke
> Message-Id: <199712230652.XAA00801@userhome.com>
My list doesn't generate a lot of messages every day as its a one way joke list, but it does generate a heckuva lot of bounces. Caught up in all this mess are these "Hey, I got your message replies" from several members.
Does anyone know what turns this off to bulk mail messages so I wouldn't get these from the list messages, but other people with "regular" mail would? I'd like to have a prepared message to send to these people telling them how to do it, and if it's not done in x-amount of time they'll be dropped from the list.
What software is it that does this? Seems like I see Groupwise sometimes associated with these little annoyances.
Thanks for any suggestions or ideas.
Paul
------------------------------------------------------------
(o)(o) Paul Allen Rice
> Listowner: CircleJoke and Underground Mailing Lists
\/ Homepage:
------------------------------------------------------------
"We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards
could produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks
to the Internet, we know this is not true."
--Robert Wilensky, University of California
------------------------------------------------------------
Support the anti-Spam amendment, go to http://www.cauce.org
------------------------------------------------------------
From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 1 17:29:25 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA01581; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:22:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id RAA01562 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:22:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70])
by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10634
; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:23:35 -0800
X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com
Message-Id:
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980101181236.00800970@solar.sky.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:21:26 -0800
To: Paul Allen Rice , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: Question about (Message status - opened)
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 4:12 PM -0800 1/1/98, Paul Allen Rice wrote:
> This kinda goes along with the vacation message problem we sometimes
>seem to have on lists.
>
> How should I handle stuff like this....
> >The message that you sent was opened by the following:
> > wanderso
> >Information about your message:
> > Subject: Welcome to circlejoke
> > Message-Id: <199712230652.XAA00801@userhome.com>
This one is, if I remember correctly, the Lotus mail server. Lotus, in
its infinite wisdom, made this a SERVER configured option, not an
end-user. So you go to that user, tell him to tell his admin to turn it
off, or he'll be removed from the mail list. Works 99% of the time,
because I've found most of the time, the *admin* didn't even know it
was turned on.
Every once in a while I used to run into an admin that told me to sit
on it, and I removed his users from the list. (shrug).
Or you can do what I do now: I have a procmail front end that looks for
these and devnulls them. They're easy to trap, easy to throw away. That
way, I never see them, and I don't have to care how the client's
software is configured and go through the hassle of trying to get it
fixed.
I don't particularly like getting whapped by dozens of autobot
messages. I chose simply to set my system up to trash them. The
alternative is working with the user to make them go away. Both work.
It depends on which you feel is more appropriate. This just wasn't the
kind of issue I felt was worth putting time into, since I don't really
care if they devnull the response or if I do it. The overhead of the
responses as far as system overhead and bandwidth just aren't
significant, and fixing stuff like this takes time.
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 1 19:59:25 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA07961; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:48:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id TAA07954 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:48:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX J5.0) id 95;
Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:47:41 -0800
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:47:41 -0800
From: "Henry W. Miller"
To: bish@azstarnet.com
CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV
Message-ID: <009BFA76.95B78D54.95@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV>
Subject: RE: address forwarding
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
> From: MX%"bish@azstarnet.com" 1-JAN-1998 19:24:21.40
> To: MX%"list-managers@greatcircle.com"
> CC:
> Subj: address forwarding
>
On Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:50:35 +0000, "Bob Bish" said:
"Bob Bish" writes:
> I have an address bouncing that doesn't appear on the list. I suspect it's
> someone using a forwarding service. This happened once before and it took me 3
> weeks of sending test messages to list addresses until one bounced the same way
> as the culprit.
> The problem this time is that this address is bouncing with one of those
> "could not deliver for 1 week and 1 day" messages. If I try to send test
> messages in this case, I'd have to wait 8 days on each one to see if it
> bounces.
> Any suggestion for weeding out the culprit address?
>
> ...Bob
> http://www.humvee.com
>
Bob,
I would suggest looking at the address that you are receiving
back as a bounce, and compare the user name to those addresses on the
list in question, looking for something similar. That may help narrow
it down.
Good hunting,
-HWM
From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 5 02:29:41 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA07547; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 02:15:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from onyx.msis.metu.edu.tr (onyx.msis.metu.edu.tr [144.122.201.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id CAA07231 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 02:14:03 -0800 (PST)
From: msislist@onyx.msis.metu.edu.tr
Received: from localhost (msislist@localhost)
by onyx.msis.metu.edu.tr (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15591
for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:13:26 +0200
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:13:26 +0200 (EET)
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: error in majordomo.pl
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Hi,
it says that there is an error at majordomo.pl
on this line.
1 while $temp =~ s/(^|([^\\\"]|\\.)+)\"([^\\\"]|\\.|$)*\"?/$1/g;
can someone help me
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 9 02:55:01 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA26414; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 02:26:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id CAA25240 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 02:18:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA26914 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:06:29 +0500
Received: from localhost (fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA32245 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:25:05 -0500
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:25:04 -0500 (GMT+5)
From: Fyodor
Reply-To: fygrave@usa.net
To: List Managers
Subject: List software
Message-ID:
X-lummer: Bill Gates
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Hello People,
I am thinking of installing some lists to test them on my host, i
wonder, what free avaliable software you could you advice? i have the
feeling that some majordomo packages are of good use, but which ones? and
where could i download them?
Thanks beforehands
Fyodor
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 9 18:01:55 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA24427; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:58:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (andromeda.ndirect.co.uk [194.74.254.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id RAA24400 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:58:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pm0-25.ndirect.co.uk (pm0-25.ndirect.co.uk [195.99.165.36]) by andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id BAA14872 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:59:31 GMT
From: merlin@netlink.co.uk (Darren Wyn Rees)
To: List Managers
Subject: Tracing the ISP of (a Particularly Hideous) Subscriber
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:57:51 GMT
Message-ID: <34d5d3a8.29456674@mail.ndirect.co.uk>
X-Meddwe: Gwefus Gwenno
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I have a problem that mainly concerns a small 'culture' list I manage
(VALLEYS-L, on the South Wales Valleys). Here's a synopsis of the
situation, roughly in chronological order :
* I received some pretty vicious materials by email (main themes of abuse :
references to drugs, blood, religion, and lots of psychobabble) a month and
a half ago. The emails was in response to a message I posted to another
list (where I'm a subscriber) and I'm in the process of contacting that
lists owners to explain the situation. (I'm not sure of the other list
manager's obligations in this respect?)
* The abuser sends a message with sicko imagery... this time _to_ the list.
[Thank God] I was experimenting with the list at the time and it was only
open to subscribers to post... His message was bounced.
* I do not respond to a single one of his messages, so he takes his
abuse elsewhere :
* A list-post of mine is sent to a newsgroup. This was no big deal .
However, he has also posted a lot of Usenet posts in the same newsgroup
that are quite libellous/provocative. This may affect people's perception
of the list (see below, for why it's difficult to respond to this critic)
in the long term... If people perceive that there's a nutter loose on a
list, then I do not think they would wish to join.
* I started getting v-e-r-y paranoid (this guy makes subtle references
that suggest he has done some research) changing passwords on accounts,
checking all logs in detail from past emails. I discover that the Abuser
joined a list (it lasted 2 months, but fulfilled its role) I was involved
in early Summer, 1997... his email message to me gives me a 'lead' : The
originating IP Address comes from the Web Proxy Server of the biggest
British ISP, Demon. Could it be spoofed/faked... I don't know, I have no
idea how clever this time-waster is, and it's too damned technical for me.
* He uses a Hotmail Com email address. All his messages (except the one
from Demon) have this "X-Originating-IP: [209.75.196.2]" on it, or variants
on that. A DNS reverse lookup gives "sol.infonex.com" and that suggests
the http://www.anonymizer.com. They're sent via myriad.alias.net, when
they go to Usenet.
* Contacted Hotmail Com but they've been soooo reluctant to do anything...
giving me some rubbish about "you didn't send all the Path headers in your
email to abuse@hotmail.com" which was not true as I quoted every single
iota of mail received from the Hotmail Customer.
* Contacted Demon Net Ltd... but they deny that this is from their
Customer. Highly convenient for them, I daresay.
* I've used 'he' and 'guy' as I'm almost certain this is a male.
Managing my list, my main worres are that the Abuser (i) could do the same
thing to other people on my list with possible legal repercussions for
myself (see iii); (ii) worryingly, has done this type of thing before but
now is going a little more 'professional' (experimenting with a simple
web/'anon' interface for a Hotmail account; (iii) the VALLEYS-L list is
small, in its infancy, and this guy could really kill any growth potential;
(iv) time wasted dealing with this pest could be better spent experimenting
with a Majordomo/Linux platform to move my list to.
If this post is off-topic, or too long here then please accept my sincere
apologies. I've read nearly _all_ the archives, especially with interest
the bits about methods/stategies of catching people who re-post list
material to Usenet et. al.
I really haven't got a clue where to start on this problem, so _any_ help
would be gratefully appreciated. If you want precise details though, I
would rather that be by email. At this stage, if I could prove that this
guy is posting from Demon Net Ltd., then the problem is solved because he's
broken their Acceptable Usage Policy and his account is terminated.
Sincerely,
--
Darren Rees mailto:merlin@netlink.co.uk
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 9 22:46:54 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA01717; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 21:07:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id VAA01638 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 21:07:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id VAA21038; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 21:08:14 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 21:08:14 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199801100508.VAA21038@shell7.ba.best.com>
From: Cyndi Norman
To: merlin@netlink.co.uk
CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com
In-reply-to: <34d5d3a8.29456674@mail.ndirect.co.uk> (merlin@netlink.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Tracing the ISP of (a Particularly Hideous) Subscriber
Reply-to: cnorman@best.com
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Hi Darren. This is totally the proper place to discuss this sort of
thing. I'm glad too to get away from the tech geek talk (no offence!)
I can't help you trace the ISP, that's not my area. But I can tell you
I've been there. Some people get kicks out of bringing down lists or
harressing people. Sounds like you're doing the right things. You have
removed this jerk from your list, yes? And I do think you should talk to
the other list owner and present your case. The ISP's might take you more
seriously if they get more than one complaint about the person.
Good luck,
Cyndi
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
"There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman
something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com
__________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman
From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 10 08:31:50 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA26602; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:23:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id IAA26577 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:23:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7])
by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP
id LAA07015; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:24:59 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost (murr@localhost)
by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA13873;
Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:24:59 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:24:58 -0500 (EST)
From: murr rhame
To: Darren Wyn Rees
cc: List Managers
Subject: Re: Tracing the ISP of (a Particularly Hideous) Subscriber
In-Reply-To: <34d5d3a8.29456674@mail.ndirect.co.uk>
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I can't offer a great solution for tracing your culprit. I will note
that Listproc 6.0c does keep a log of all posts and commands which has
full headers intact. There may be other mailing list servers programs
which also keep complete records. Complete headers can be helpful in
tracing. There were some posts to the list-manager list complaining
about the lack of complete logs with Majordomo.
Unfortunately, it can be very difficult to track down someone who is
determined not to be found. I would ask for assistance from your
local sysadmin. Sysadmins and postmasters have access to logs and
tools not usually available to the average user. Postmasters are more
likley to respond to a compliant form another postmaster than to a
complaint from a random user. If you have a serious problem, your
local sys admins are the place to start.
Regarding his slanderous posts to other forums, I would not worry too
much about him killing off the list. Those who are already subscribed
to your list know better than to believe his lies. When he posts to
other forums, I would post a very terse disclaimer stating that the
fellow is not and has never been subscribed to your mailing list, and
does not represent your mailing list in any way. If his posts are as
strange as you have described, no one will pay any attention to him.
Detailed rebutals of each issue raised by a person of questionable
sanity, often doesn't read well on the net. Keep the rebuttal very
short and very dry.
- murr -
From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 15 17:03:29 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA13458; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:54:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.unidial.com (unidial.com [206.112.0.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id QAA13424 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:54:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from unidial.com (1Cust199.tnt27.chi5.da.uu.net [208.255.17.199])
by mail.unidial.com (8.8.7/ntr.net 3.0.0) with ESMTP id AAA03429;
Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:55:57 GMT
Message-ID: <34BEB002.4FE34A06@unidial.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:55:30 -0500
From: Merrill Cook
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Outlook 98 beta
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I just loaded the Outlook 98 beta. I noticed something that looks kinda
odd:
When I reply to a note that has a "Sender" (header) that is different
from the "From:" header, Outlook is including BOTH the sender and the
>From address in the reply.
Don't most list management packages use "list-owner" for the Sender?
Won't this default behavior be pretty nasty to the list-owners who will
now get two copies of each message?
Is there any way to get a loud message to Microsoft to stop doing it
this way, or at least to make it a configurable option that is turned
off by default (so a simple reply goes only to the "From:" field, not
the "sender").
From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 15 17:33:25 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA17364; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:23:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from eis-msg-005.jpl.nasa.gov (eis-msg-005.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.18.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id RAA17355 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:23:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [137.78.144.194] (lemond.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.144.194])
by eis-msg-005.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28563
for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:24:58 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:27:09 -0800
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Kyle
Subject: Win95 list software
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I thought I saw some list software for Win95 listed here that was freeware,
but I didn't save the message nor do I know where the archives are for the
list to look through them. Would anyone happen to have the list software
names and/or locations to get it? Thanks.
Kyle
From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 15 17:47:41 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA17818; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:28:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: from baygate.bayarea.net (baygate.bayarea.net [204.71.212.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id RAA17811 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:28:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from dcrocker@localhost)
by baygate.bayarea.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA18106;
Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:32:34 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id:
X-Sender: dcrocker@mail.bayarea.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Release Candidate 3
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:20:48 -0500
To: Merrill Cook
From: Dave Crocker
Subject: Re: Outlook 98 beta
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <34BEB002.4FE34A06@unidial.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 07:55 PM 1/15/98 -0500, Merrill Cook wrote:
>from the "From:" header, Outlook is including BOTH the sender and the
>>From address in the reply.
>
>Won't this default behavior be pretty nasty to the list-owners who will
the behavior is quite illegal. Sender is not to be used for formulating
replies.
I've sent a note to a relevant MS person.
d/
--------------------
Dave Crocker +1 408 246 8253
Brandenburg Consulting fax: +1 408 249 6205
675 Spruce Dr. dcrocker@brandenburg.com
Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA http://www.brandenburg.com
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 16 07:05:43 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA13607; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:00:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: from revnet1.revnet.com (revnet1.revnet.com [198.51.35.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id HAA13538 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:00:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from majestic.revnet.com (majestic.revnet.com [198.51.35.45]) by revnet1.revnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA11790; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:08:09 -0600
Message-Id: <199801161508.JAA11790@revnet1.revnet.com>
X-Sender: mmead@revnet1.revnet.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:57:36 -0600
To: Kyle , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Marc Mead
Subject: Re: Win95 list software
In-Reply-To:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
GroupMaster http://www.groupmaster.com list server for Windows 95 and NT.
Once installed, it's managed remotely from your browser on any platform,
anywhere. Not exactly freeware, but free eval versions are available at
the site.
Marc Mead
Revnet Systems http://www.revnet.com
At 05:27 PM 1/15/98 -0800, Kyle wrote:
>I thought I saw some list software for Win95 listed here that was freeware,
>but I didn't save the message nor do I know where the archives are for the
>list to look through them. Would anyone happen to have the list software
>names and/or locations to get it? Thanks.
>
>
>
>Kyle
>
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 16 18:49:35 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA20248; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:49:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id RAA20132 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:48:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from anago.wwa.com (anago.wwa.com [198.49.174.54]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id LAA28806 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:07:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: by anago.wwa.com
via sendmail with stdio
id
for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:08:15 -0600 (CST)
(Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #88 built 1997-Nov-30)
Message-Id:
From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin)
Subject: new worldnet NDN error
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:08:15 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
Content-Type: text
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Try this one on as a reason for bouncing mail back:
"The user message store is inactive."
That came from the good folks at worldnet.att.com. What language do they
speak?
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 16 18:54:24 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA23309; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:12:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id SAA23249 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:11:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from smap@localhost)
by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4)
id UAA20195 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:13:52 -0600 (CST)
Received: from sdx-ca8-24.ix.netcom.com(204.30.72.88) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3)
id rma020175; Fri Jan 16 20:13:45 1998
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980116181516.00e1ce60@adnc.com>
X-Sender: mtrip@adnc.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:15:16 -0800
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Mike Tripp
Subject: Re: Win95 list software
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 05:27 PM 1/15/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I thought I saw some list software for Win95 listed here that was freeware,
>but I didn't save the message nor do I know where the archives are for the
>list to look through them. Would anyone happen to have the list software
>names and/or locations to get it? Thanks.
Kyle,
You can find searchable archives for the list-managers list at
http://www.list-archives.com/cgi-bin/miva?list/list-managers.
Mike
mike@list-archives.com
***********
SEARCHABLE Web-Based List Archives customized to compliment your
website, not ours. Are you wasting the value of your list content by
not offering message searches? Use your archive as a revenue stream
without commercializing your list. Completely automatic - no work
for list manager or owner. http://www.list-archives.com
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 16 19:39:21 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA02736; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:01:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id TAA02590 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:01:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154])
by relay1.shore.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA27272;
Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:03:13 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from jeffw@localhost)
by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4-daemon-mode-relay2) id WAA12465;
Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:05:11 -0500
Message-ID: <19980116220510.02649@smoe.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:05:10 -0500
From: Jeff Wasilko
To: "David W. Tamkin"
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: new worldnet NDN error
References:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76
In-Reply-To: ; from "David W. Tamkin" on Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 01:08:15PM -0600
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 01:08:15PM -0600, David W. Tamkin wrote:
> Try this one on as a reason for bouncing mail back:
>
> "The user message store is inactive."
>
> That came from the good folks at worldnet.att.com. What language do they
> speak?
Technoenglish.
Worldnet uses Software.com's InterMail. InterMail stores users
mail in database called the 'message store'. It sounds like
they're having some problems with it...
-Jeff
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 16 20:35:15 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA10846; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:52:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.wasatch.com (ns.wasatch.com [204.99.129.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id TAA10823 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:52:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from LOCALNAME (209.63.78.34) by mail.wasatch.com with smtp
(Linux Smail3.2.0.94 #1) id m0xtPL1-000bJDC; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:54:27 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <34C03845.6778@wasatch.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:49:09 -0800
From: "W. David Samuelsen"
Reply-To: dsam@wasatch.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "David W. Tamkin"
CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: new worldnet NDN error
References:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
David W. Tamkin wrote:
>
> Try this one on as a reason for bouncing mail back:
>
> "The user message store is inactive."
>
> That came from the good folks at worldnet.att.com. What language do they
> speak?
worldnet.att.net (not .com) is telling you that the subscriber had
changed his isp. The name of person is given in the bounce message.
I get those bounces all the times when the subscribers changed isps and
forgot to unsubscribe from the lists using old address.
W. David Samuelsen
From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 17 07:48:03 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA11729; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 07:38:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.166]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id HAA11712 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 07:38:07 -0800 (PST)
From: ZYLPH
Message-ID: <6637c6a5.34c0d0e7@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:40:21 EST
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V7 #7
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I've been learning and using Pegasus Mail, a free,
downloadable Mail Server. Having great success with it.
It even offers a way to set up practically unlimited
autoresponders. I use it to administer a small monthly
digest list. It's a great program, very rich.
Their URL escapes me. I suggest starting with:
http://www.Pegasus.com
Simon Zylph
TableTips Internet Marketing
http://www.TableTips.com
In a message dated 98-01-17 04:22:30 EST, you write:
>
> At 05:27 PM 1/15/98 -0800, Kyle wrote:
> >I thought I saw some list software for Win95 listed here that was
freeware,
> >but I didn't save the message nor do I know where the archives are for the
> >list to look through them. Would anyone happen to have the list software
> >names and/or locations to get it? Thanks.
From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 17 09:48:03 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA21718; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:46:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id JAA21700 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:46:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70])
by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA24218
; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:50:28 -0800
X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com
Message-Id:
In-Reply-To: <19980116220510.02649@smoe.org>
References: ; from "David W. Tamkin" on
Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 01:08:15PM -0600
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:47:29 -0800
To: Jeff Wasilko , "David W. Tamkin"
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: new worldnet NDN error
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 7:05 PM -0800 1/16/98, Jeff Wasilko wrote:
> > "The user message store is inactive."
> Worldnet uses Software.com's InterMail. InterMail stores users
> mail in database called the 'message store'. It sounds like
> they're having some problems with it...
Nope. The account has been turned off.
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 17 18:33:07 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA07183; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:21:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (andromeda.ndirect.co.uk [194.74.254.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id SAA07101 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:20:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pm0-03.ndirect.co.uk (pm0-03.ndirect.co.uk [195.99.165.14]) by andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id CAA30973 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 02:23:06 GMT
From: merlin@netlink.co.uk (Darren Wyn Rees)
To: List Managers
Subject: Re: Tracing the ISP of (a Particularly Hideous) Subscriber
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 02:21:30 GMT
Reply-To: merlin@netlink.co.uk
X-PGP-Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=diffreithiant
Message-ID: <34cf58e3.10100784@mail.ndirect.co.uk>
X-Meddwe: Gwefus Gwenno
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Thanks to all who helped with my question; although I haven't traced the=20
ISP in question, the Hotmail account has been terminated, and Usenet
fwd.'ing has stopped. --- What I've .learned. from this curve, is to *be
prepared* (I forgot my Cub Scout's motto), and to be aware of a simple =
plan
of action if it crops up again. Cheers,
--
Darren Wyn Rees mailto:merlin@netlink.co.uk =20
From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 18 04:48:14 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA27020; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 04:37:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: from renoir.op.net (renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id EAA27005 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 04:37:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from d-phletc1-1a.ppp.op.net (d-phletc1-1a.ppp.op.net [209.152.198.90]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.14 $) with SMTP id HAA29636 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 07:39:59 -0500 (EST)
From: kobak@Op.Net (Peter Kobak)
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: being a good citizen
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:47:08 GMT
Message-ID: <34c3f67c.1959750@mail.op.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I'm introducing email distribution of customized information for
customers of a large financial institution. The customer will always
explicitly choose to receive these emails. By the end of this year, we
predict sending an average of around 20k messages per day, with peaks
of up to 120k messages in a single day, and up to 70k messages in one
chunk.
How should I go about warning receiving ISPs about this volume? I want
to be a good internet citizen, and I also want to avoid having our
legitimate emails being treated as spam because of volume alone. We've
got the advantage of already having a database of email addresses of
current customers, so we can make a pretty good prediction of the
volume to be going to larger ISPs. (Not surprisingly, AOL is by far
the largest single ISP.)
Along the same lines, are there any rules of thumb about maximum
messages per unit time and/or the maximum polite hold time for an
ISP's email port?
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Peter Kobak
kobak@op.net
From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 18 05:48:09 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA02326; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 05:43:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from java.aboard.co.uk ([193.164.182.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id FAA02319 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 05:43:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from nick@localhost) by java.aboard.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA27910; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:45:34 GMT
From: Nick Perry
Message-ID: <19980118134532.26338@amulation.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:45:32 +0000
To: Peter Kobak , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: being a good citizen
References: <34c3f67c.1959750@mail.op.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88
In-Reply-To: <34c3f67c.1959750@mail.op.net>; from Peter Kobak on Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 12:47:08PM +0000
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 12:47:08PM +0000, Peter Kobak wrote:
> predict sending an average of around 20k messages per day, with peaks
> of up to 120k messages in a single day, and up to 70k messages in one
> chunk.
> ...current customers, so we can make a pretty good prediction of the
> volume to be going to larger ISPs. (Not surprisingly, AOL is by far
> the largest single ISP.)
Presumably, you expect to be sending (in the 20k example), say, 20
messages to 1000 people or 1 message to 20000 people rather than the
other extreme of 20000 messages to 1 person. If so, then a mailing list
that operates along the lines of majordomo & sendmail will have a far
smaller impact than you might imagine. Sending a single 50k email
message to 1000 AOL subscribers, for instance, will result in only one
50k message plus a list of 1000 addresses being sent to the AOL MTA,
rather than 1000 50k messages each with one address.
If this is the case, then the sort of figures you are talking about are
quite normal and shouldn't cause too many problems.
Nick
--
Nick Perry | Home / Recreation | Work - AboarD |
| LONDON SW1, UK | LONDON SW6, UK |
| http://www.amulation.co.uk/nick | http://www.aboard.co.uk |
| nick.perry@amulation.co.uk | np@aboard.co.uk |
From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 18 07:04:33 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA11384; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 06:48:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from renoir.op.net (renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id GAA11359 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 06:47:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: from d-phletc1-1a.ppp.op.net (d-phletc1-1a.ppp.op.net [209.152.198.90]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.14 $) with SMTP id JAA02519; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:49:49 -0500 (EST)
From: kobak@Op.Net (Peter Kobak)
To: Nick Perry , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: being a good citizen
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:56:59 GMT
Message-ID: <34c612f9.9253265@mail.op.net>
References: <34c3f67c.1959750@mail.op.net> <19980118134532.26338@amulation.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <19980118134532.26338@amulation.co.uk>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:45:32 +0000, you wrote:
>Presumably, you expect to be sending (in the 20k example), say, 20
>messages to 1000 people or 1 message to 20000 people rather than the
>other extreme of 20000 messages to 1 person. =20
Neither; we will be sending different messages to each of 20000
persons. Even when the text of messages would be otherwise identical,
we need to include a unique identifier for tracking purposes and for
automated handling of bounced messages.
The customer database which contain the email addresses is the primary
store. That is, two individuals in the database may use the same
email address; message delivery options specified for two users are
separate even if using the same address. This is a relatively common
occupance when two customers in the same household have separate
financial accounts.
>If so, then a mailing list
>that operates along the lines of majordomo & sendmail will have a far
>smaller impact than you might imagine. Sending a single 50k email
>message to 1000 AOL subscribers, for instance, will result in only one
>50k message plus a list of 1000 addresses being sent to the AOL MTA,
>rather than 1000 50k messages each with one address.
I presume I couldn't count on this small impact when sending different
messages.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Peter Kobak
kobak@op.net
From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 19 00:18:34 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA27378; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:06:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id AAA27362 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:06:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from stl-17lssc (STL-17LSSC.ARMY.MIL [150.211.90.52]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id IAA25676 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:22:01 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199801141622.IAA25676@honor.greatcircle.com>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.new-list
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:25:58 CST
Reply-To: Eric Scheid
From: Eric Scheid
Subject: NEW: List-Moderators
To: NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
List-Moderators on requests@lists.ironclad.net.au
List-Moderators is an open, unmoderated discussion list for the benefit
of list-moderators. It is a gathering place for list-moderators to share
their experiences and wisdom, and for newly appointed list-moderators to
learn the trade.
Discussions which would be on topic include techniques and tools to
assist moderation, how to deal with troublesome posters, encouraging a
particular list culture without appearing too authoritarian, how to spot
posters attempting to use and abuse the system, text-layout styles for
newsletters, etc.
It is unlikely this list will ever be moderated ;-)
To subscribe, send an email to requests@lists.ironclad.net.au with
SUBSCRIBE LIST-MODERATORS
as the body of the message.
To subscribe to the digest, send an email to
requests@lists.ironclad.net.au with
SUBSCRIBE DIGEST LIST-MODERATORS
as the body of the message.
Owner: Eric Scheid
-------
Use this information at your own risk. For more information and disclaimer
send E-mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command INFO NEW-LIST
in the body. URL: http://LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU/archives/new-list.html
From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 19 00:22:44 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA28759; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:17:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id AAA28751 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:17:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ligarius-fe0.ultra.net (ligarius-fe0.ultra.net [146.115.8.189]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id TAA10347 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:50:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from voyager (d22.dial-2.wal.ma.ultra.net [146.115.77.54]) by ligarius-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.5/ult.n14767) with SMTP id WAA30147 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:52:45 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980116035336.007219d4@pop.ma.ultranet.com>
X-Sender: stanr@pop.ma.ultranet.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:53:36 -0500
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Stan Ryckman
Subject: Re: Outlook 98 beta
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 07:55 PM 1/15/98 -0500, Merrill Cook wrote:
>I just loaded the Outlook 98 beta. I noticed something that looks kinda
>odd:
>
>When I reply to a note that has a "Sender" (header) that is different
>from the "From:" header, Outlook is including BOTH the sender and the
>>From address in the reply.
>
>Don't most list management packages use "list-owner" for the Sender?
>Won't this default behavior be pretty nasty to the list-owners who will
>now get two copies of each message?
>
>Is there any way to get a loud message to Microsoft to stop doing it
>this way, or at least to make it a configurable option that is turned
>off by default (so a simple reply goes only to the "From:" field, not
>the "sender").
Well, you could always *TRY* blasting the following from RFC822 at them,
noting the capitalized NEVER in the second bullet item. However,
Microsoft is not famous for listening, nor for obeying standards other
than its own.
(I'm not sure how you figure the two copies to list-owners, though;
the From: header is generally the poster of the message. Are you
sure that Reply-To isn't somehow involved in what you see?)
Stan.
(RFC822 excerpt:)
4.4.4. AUTOMATIC USE OF FROM / SENDER / REPLY-TO
For systems which automatically generate address lists for
replies to messages, the following recommendations are made:
o The "Sender" field mailbox should be sent notices of
any problems in transport or delivery of the original
messages. If there is no "Sender" field, then the
"From" field mailbox should be used.
o The "Sender" field mailbox should NEVER be used
automatically, in a recipient's reply message.
o If the "Reply-To" field exists, then the reply should
go to the addresses indicated in that field and not to
the address(es) indicated in the "From" field.
o If there is a "From" field, but no "Reply-To" field,
the reply should be sent to the address(es) indicated
in the "From" field.
Sometimes, a recipient may actually wish to communicate with
the person that initiated the message transfer. In such
cases, it is reasonable to use the "Sender" address.
This recommendation is intended only for automated use of
originator-fields and is not intended to suggest that replies
may not also be sent to other recipients of messages. It is
up to the respective mail-handling programs to decide what
additional facilities will be provided.
From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 19 02:06:01 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA06541; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 01:15:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id BAA05319 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 01:03:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id KAA24604 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:16:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: by miso.wwa.com
via sendmail with stdio
id
for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:19:08 -0600 (CST)
(Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #12 built 1997-Nov-30)
Message-Id:
From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin)
Subject: Re: new worldnet NDN error
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:19:08 -0600 (CST)
In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jan 17, 98 09:47:29 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
| > > "The user message store is inactive."
Chuq Von Rospach explained that that means,
| The account has been turned off.
Something in my original question triggered the admin filter here, so my
post took some time to reach the membership of list-managers. In the
meanwhile, postmaster@worldnet.att.com told me what Chuq said: that the
account has been turned off.
Heaven forbid that worldnet should say something like "unknown user" or
"recipient unknown" that the rest of us could understand without our having
to write back to ask for an explanation.
But at least it is not in the same category as Prodigy's "user is currently
disabled." Every time I get that one I'm tempted to write back to Prodigy
administrators, "Please give your customer my best wishes for a full and
speedy recovery, but I don't understand why a temporary disability is reason
to cut off incoming email."
From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 19 02:36:36 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA04653; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:59:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id AAA04637 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:58:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tera.bctel.net (tera.bctel.net [204.174.64.252]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id KAA09627 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:34:48 -0800 (PST)
From: brian@ilinx.com
Received: (from nobody@localhost) by tera.bctel.net (8.7.6/8.7.1) id KAA11748; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:33:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from beavis.bctel.net(204.174.66.19) by tera.bctel.net via smap (V2.0)
id xma011718; Fri, 16 Jan 98 10:33:11 -0800
Received: (from murrell@localhost)
by beavis.bctel.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20829;
Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:33:03 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199801161833.KAA20829@beavis.bctel.net>
X-Authentication-Warning: beavis.bctel.net: murrell set sender to brian@ilinx.com using -f
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:33:02 -0800 (PST)
To: mcook@unidial.com
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Outlook 98 beta
In-Reply-To: <34BEB002.4FE34A06@unidial.com>
X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.2-980107-sol
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
from the quill of Merrill Cook on scroll
<34BEB002.4FE34A06@unidial.com>
> I just loaded the Outlook 98 beta. I noticed something that looks kinda
> odd:
Why does this not surprise me?
> When I reply to a note that has a "Sender" (header) that is different
> from the "From:" header, Outlook is including BOTH the sender and the
> >From address in the reply.
Oh yeah...This is definately illegal. Perhaps somebody needs to print off
some RFCs in large font print.
So does anybody know definitively, is there a real shortage of brain cells
at MS in the RFC reading and implementing department? I mean how difficult
is it to read a recipie (the RFC) and just make your software do what the
RFC says it MUST (and hopefully SHOULD) do? Sheesh.
> Don't most list management packages use "list-owner" for the Sender?
> Won't this default behavior be pretty nasty to the list-owners who will
> now get two copies of each message?
Yup, assuming they are on the lists they admin. :-)
> Is there any way to get a loud message to Microsoft to stop doing it
> this way, or at least to make it a configurable option that is turned
> off by default (so a simple reply goes only to the "From:" field, not
> the "sender").
--
Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com
InterLinx Support Services, Inc.
North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX
Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD
From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 19 10:19:44 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA01836; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:26:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.proper.com (mail.proper.com [206.86.127.224]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id JAA01717 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:26:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from om.proper.com (om.proper.com [165.227.249.115]) by mail.proper.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA10681 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:24:09 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199801191724.JAA10681@mail.proper.com>
X-Sender: paulh@mail.imc.org
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:26:45 -0800
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Paul Hoffman / IMC
Subject: Re: Outlook 98 beta
In-Reply-To: <199801161833.KAA20829@beavis.bctel.net>
References: <34BEB002.4FE34A06@unidial.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
A few of us have already contacted Microsoft People Who Should Know Better
about this report. I haven't heard back yet, but if the bug is real, I'm sure
it will now be squashed quickly.
--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium
From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 19 10:19:52 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA04065; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:45:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.proper.com (mail.proper.com [206.86.127.224]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id JAA01784 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:26:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: from om.proper.com (om.proper.com [165.227.249.115]) by mail.proper.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA10677; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:23:57 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199801191723.JAA10677@mail.proper.com>
X-Sender: paulh@mail.imc.org
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:25:21 -0800
To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Paul Hoffman / IMC
Subject: Re: new worldnet NDN error
In-Reply-To:
References:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 12:19 PM 1/17/98 -0600, David W. Tamkin wrote:
>Something in my original question triggered the admin filter here, so my
>post took some time to reach the membership of list-managers. In the
>meanwhile, postmaster@worldnet.att.com told me what Chuq said: that the
>account has been turned off.
It would help us all if you would send a message back to whoever contacted you
from Worldnet and ask them to get the error message changed. Yes, it's a long
shot that a tech support person could get action from the sysadmin, but if you
mention that they're being roundly made fun of by a bunch of list managers, it
might help. :-)
--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium
From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 19 14:03:33 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA22025; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:56:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gate.insite.co.uk (gate.insite.co.uk [193.123.212.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id NAA22010 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:56:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from janeway.verity.com (janeway.verity.com [192.168.70.135]) by gate.insite.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA04782 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:40:24 GMT
Received: by janeway.verity.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
id ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:01:13 -0000
Message-ID:
From: Peter Bowyer
To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'"
Subject: MSN???
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:01:12 -0000
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Anyone else having trouble with msn.com today? None of their MXs is
answering - there's undelivered mail all over the machine room floor
here :-((
Peter
From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 20 01:49:01 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA28268; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:16:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id WAA19789 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:34:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70])
by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22720
; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:39:06 -0800
X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com
Message-Id:
In-Reply-To: <199801191723.JAA10677@mail.proper.com>
References:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:37:13 -0800
To: Paul Hoffman / IMC , dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin),
list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: new worldnet NDN error
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 9:25 AM -0800 1/19/98, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote:
> It would help us all if you would send a message back to whoever
>contacted you
> from Worldnet and ask them to get the error message changed.
Actually, I don't mind MSN much. At least they don't send out false
positives like a lot of sites. You want to go nuke someone, go nuke
whoever thought they could write CCmail without ever looking at a
standards doc.
MSN is irritating but cosmetic. It's the least of my problems (grin).
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 21 22:51:41 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA18031; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:21:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id VAA07987 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:30:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from elycion.geology.ualberta.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426)
id VAA23326; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:13:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [207.254.96.49] ([207.254.96.49]) by elycion.geology.ualberta.ca (8.8.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA18606; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:18:50 -0700
Message-Id:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Organization: Little to None
X-Mailer: Eudora 4.0 for Cray T3E-1200
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:05:39 -0500
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM,
ListMom-Talk Discussion List
From: Vince Sabio
Subject: Adventures of the Clue Impaired
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Hi kids,
In this installment of "Adventures of the Clue Impaired," we watch the
Clueless People(tm) in one of their natural habitats: mailing lists.
This one sent to me by a subscriber to one of my lists ...
- Vince
--- begin forwarded text
Vince:
Below is the info posting today from Eudora list. I send you it only so you
can properly appreciate the reply it got from the clueless (and soon to be
ex) list member of the day. I don't see what the instructions omitted and
since it was a reply, the jerk had to have received it. At least the dummy
kept it short. I'm surprised the reply didn't quote the whole message!
Perhaps the list owner needs to implement unsub fees.
--Jim
<<<>>>
Subject: Welcome to eudora-mac: List Information
From: "Matt Garland"
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:58:25 +0000
Hey all,
It's the file you all have come to know and love ... Matt's
semi-whenever-he-feels-like-it-or-someone-sends-mail-to-the-list
saying-can-we-unsubscribe-him/her LIST INFORMATION BULLETIN!!!!
-matt
-list admin, and generally a nice guy.
----------------------------------
Some people choose not to save the welcome message they receive when
they subscribe to listservers. This is a *bad idea*. It only causes
problems for everyone involved.
Since this is the case, I'm going to periodically (maybe bi-monthly or
so) send this e-mail explaining how to unsubscribe, as well as other
stuff.
To SUBSCRIBE:
send any message to eudora-mac-on@wso.williams.edu
To UNSUBSCRIBE:
send any message to eudora-mac-off@wso.williams.edu
To SWITCH TO DIGEST:
send mail to majordomo@wso.williams.edu
in the subject, type subscribe digest eudora-mac
To SWITCH FROM DIGEST TO REGULAR MAIL:
send mail to majordomo@wso.williams.edu
in the subject, type subscribe eudora-mac
To GET HELP:
send mail to majordomo@wso.williams.edu
in the subject, type help
To REACH ME (only if all else fails):
send mail to Matthew.A.Garland@williams.edu
I may take some time to get back to you. But I would
prefer you NOT send subscription requests to the list.
Now, there have been HUGE problems with people switching e-mail
addresses and expecting the list to understand. If you subscribe as
"joe@prime.net" through the form on the web site, but then you try to
send mail from Eudora, which you've configured as "joe@mail.prime.net"
the listserver WON'T understand you.
**** Which is why you HAVE TO KEEP THE E-MAIL YOU RECEIVE WHEN
YOU SUBSCRIBE TO THE LIST. ****
Whatever address is in the To: field of that mail is the
address you are subscribed as, and the address you can unsubscribe
from or send mail from.
Here's a little secret ... IF you've changed addresses and you want to
send mail from your old address, open up Netscape, go into Mail and
News Preferences, put in the old address, and send mail from New ...
Mail Message. This is useful thing to remember.
Thank you for your time.
-matt
------
Matt Garland ..... Williams College, Class of '98
http://wso.williams.edu/~mgarland/
"Now be a good male and squirt out lots of sperm."
- Kat. Developmental Bio. No excuses.
<<<>>>
<<<>>>
Subject: Re: Welcome to eudora-mac: List Information
From: "RDAVIS@MIND.NET"
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:23:08 -0700
HOW DO I GET OFF THIS LIST???????
<<<>>>
--- end forwarded text
Be sure to tune in to "Adventures of the Clue Impaired" next week, when we
observe Clueless People(tm) exchanging Good Times Virus(sm) warnings!
:-)
__________________________________________________________________________
Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre:
vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam!
Behind every successful man Behind every successful man is a
is a surprised woman woman with expensive taste
-- Maryon Pearson -- Vince Sabio
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 23 17:35:22 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA12360; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:26:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id RAA12352 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:26:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.n.ml.org (narnia.mhv.net [199.0.0.118]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id HAA15852 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 07:37:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from djr@localhost
by mail.n.ml.org (Sendmail 8.8.8) via SMTP (KAA01056)
on Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:39:03 -0500 (199801181539)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:39:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Daniel Reed
To: Nick Perry
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: being a good citizen
In-Reply-To: <19980118134532.26338@amulation.co.uk>
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, Nick Perry wrote:
) Presumably, you expect to be sending (in the 20k example), say, 20
) messages to 1000 people or 1 message to 20000 people rather than the
) other extreme of 20000 messages to 1 person. If so, then a mailing list
) that operates along the lines of majordomo & sendmail will have a far
) smaller impact than you might imagine. Sending a single 50k email
) message to 1000 AOL subscribers, for instance, will result in only one
) 50k message plus a list of 1000 addresses being sent to the AOL MTA,
) rather than 1000 50k messages each with one address.
Actually, that's rather untrue. sendmail breaks the recipient list up when
delivering a message.
For example, delivering a post for the vcpp@narnia.mhv.net mailing list,
with 365 subscribers, actually takes 16 envelopes. All outgoing mail
passes through mail.mhv.net, my providers mail server, but the message is
uploaded to mail.mhv.net 16 times.
That's with 365 subscribers.
16/365*1000 = ~44 split envelopes for your example, and at 50k apiece,
that's 2 and a quarter megabytes being delivered. Now, that's not the
almost 50 megabytes that would be delivered if it delivered the message to
each recipipent separately (like how qmail operates), but it's not the 50
kilobytes you'd think either.
--
Daniel Reed (3CE060DD)
System administrator of narnia.n.ml.org (narnia.mhv.net [199.0.0.118])
Misspelled? Impossible. My modem is error correcting!
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 23 17:49:51 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA14837; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:46:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id RAA12393 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:27:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from luomat.peak.org (cc344191-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.83.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id JAA04032 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:36:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from luomat@localhost)
by luomat.peak.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29732
for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:39:15 -0500 (GMT-0500)
Message-Id: <199801181739.MAA29732@luomat.peak.org>
Content-Type: text/plain
MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148)
X-Image-URL: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/luomat@peak.org.tiff
In-Reply-To: <19980118134532.26338@amulation.co.uk>
X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.1)
Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.148.RR)
From: Timothy J Luoma
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 12:39:10 -0500
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: being a good citizen
References: <34c3f67c.1959750@mail.op.net>
<19980118134532.26338@amulation.co.uk>
X-Image-URL-Disclaimer: hey, it's off my student ID, gimme a break ;-)
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
> ...current customers, so we can make a pretty good prediction of the
> volume to be going to larger ISPs. (Not surprisingly, AOL is by far
> the largest single ISP.)
AOL has a restriction about the *number* of messages which can be waiting
for someone. I do not know if they limit the size of their mailbox. I do
know that places like Earthlink do.
Something that CNet does which you might want to consider is they send out a
"blurbmail" which has overviews of several articles, and inline URLs to the
full text. You might find it works smoother for you if you can send several
5k messages pointing to 70k (or however) worth of information.
You run less chance of running into quotas, and will eat a lot less bandwidth.
Obviously, just a suggestion which is not free of its own problems.
TjL
From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 24 14:05:43 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA29150; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:48:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA14267 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:42:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from loki.polarnet.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426)
id MAA08895; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:44:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from 199.247.120.73 (pmisc73.polarnet.ca [199.247.120.73]) by loki.polarnet.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA23566 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:36:11 GMT
Message-ID: <34CA53B2.5202@polarnet.ca>
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:48:50 -0700
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Reply-To: stephenb@polarnet.ca
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Mungedomain Help
References: <199801241048.CAA11315@honor.greatcircle.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I received a bounce from my list because of a "Non-member submission".
The poster is subscribed as but when they posted from a
specific host machine the bounce occurred.
Would the mungedomain variable set to "yes" in the list config file
resolve this problem? What exactly is mungedomain?
Are there any disadvantages to setting mungedomain to "yes"?
Conversely, with mungedomain set to "yes" would someone subscribed as
be able to post from ?
Thanks for your assistance...
stephen
From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 24 16:05:55 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA05349; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:01:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from outgoing.azstarnet.com (outgoing.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id OAA15156 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:45:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from polaris.azstarnet.com ([169.197.1.8]) by outgoing.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11761; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:48:34 -0700 (MST)
Received: from Pbish (dialup19ip48.tus.azstarnet.com [169.197.39.112]) by polaris.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA09579; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:48:31 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199801242248.PAA09579@polaris.azstarnet.com>
X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/
From: "Bob Bish"
Organization: http://www.humvee.com
To: stephenb@polarnet.ca
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:48:34 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Mungedomain Help
Reply-to: bish@azstarnet.com
CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-reply-to: <34CA53B2.5202@polarnet.ca>
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
> Would the mungedomain variable set to "yes" in the list config file
> resolve this problem? What exactly is mungedomain?
It doesn't seem to, although I think it's supposed to. I have it set to
"yes", but still get that same problem.
> Conversely, with mungedomain set to "yes" would someone subscribed as
> be able to post from ?
Not in my experience. What we've done with the lists on mailinglists.org is
to create a separate list called "known". We zubscribe all alternate addresses
and alternate versions of address that come up to the "known" list, then add it
to the "restrict_post" line. That way, members can post from any/all addresses
without bouncing as "non-member submissions". The "known" list is otherwise
invisible.
...Bob
From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 24 18:38:05 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA05437; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:02:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id OAA07625 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:16:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [209.157.82.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-960422) with ESMTP id OAA15800; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:19:52 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34CA6922.D2F1902D@postmodern.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:20:18 -0800
From: "Michael C. Berch"
Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com
Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: stephenb@polarnet.ca
CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Mungedomain Help
References: <199801241048.CAA11315@honor.greatcircle.com> <34CA53B2.5202@polarnet.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Stephen Bedingfield wrote:
> I received a bounce from my list because of a "Non-member submission".
> The poster is subscribed as but when they posted from a
> specific host machine the bounce occurred.
>
> Would the mungedomain variable set to "yes" in the list config file
> resolve this problem? What exactly is mungedomain?
>
> Are there any disadvantages to setting mungedomain to "yes"?
>
> Conversely, with mungedomain set to "yes" would someone subscribed as
> be able to post from ?
Please do not post Majordomo-specific questions to the list-managers
mailing list, which is for general discussions.
There are several Majordomo mailing lists hosted at greatcircle.com; send
the message "lists" to majordomo@greatcircle.com and subscribe/post to the
appropriate list.
Thanks,
--
Michael C. Berch
Postmaster and List Manager, Great Circle Associates
mcb@greatcircle.com / mcb@postmodern.com
From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 26 08:21:08 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA22110; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:17:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id IAA22083 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:17:31 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199801261611.claire.98015442@siberia.demon.co.uk>
From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab)
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:11:25 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Win95 list software
Reply-to: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk
In-reply-to:
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On 15 Jan 98 at 17:27, Kyle wrote:
> I thought I saw some list software for Win95 listed here that was freeware,
> but I didn't save the message nor do I know where the archives are for the
> list to look through them. Would anyone happen to have the list software
> names and/or locations to get it? Thanks.
I belive the the 95/NT version of ListServ Lite is free for a small
number of lists and/or subscriber: http://www.lsoft.com/
Also, if you would like something that has an SMTP server built in,
take a look at http://www.fastraq.demon.co.uk/
It's not free, but very cheap: and it's a program.
HTH
Claire
--
Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk
From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 29 15:14:06 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA02473; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:52:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ipro.com (farad.ipro.com [204.179.121.96]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA19592 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:25:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pc051.ipro.com by ipro.com (8.8.8/SMI-SVR4)
id LAA22329; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:30:17 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980129112925.007f05c0@204.179.121.96>
X-Sender: ariel@204.179.121.96
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:29:25 -0800
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Ariel Poler
Subject: Looking for Feedback About Moderators' Needs
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I am doing research for a company that is considering developing
enhanced services for mailing list moderators. I am looking for
volunteers to fill out a short questionnaire (should take just a few minutes)
to better understand the needs of moderators. Participants will receive the
results from the survey, and will be able to sign up to become beta testers.
If you can spare a few minutes, please send an email to
mailto:ariel@inscan.com
and provide
your name:
organization:
list name:
Thanks!
Ariel Poler
415-931-5049 (tel)
415-680-2464 (fax)
From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 29 21:53:00 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA02077; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:46:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id VAA28127 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:26:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: from spock.leben.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426)
id VAA26438; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:28:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost)
by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA14157
for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:28:30 -0600
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:28:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Mitchell Leben
Reply-To: Mitchell Leben
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Ever Been Sued?
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Time for me to come out of the woodwork and ask a few questions.
A list member has threatened to sue me because I first filtered posts from
his account, then removed him from the list. He became the center of a
flame war, and caused many people to leave the list. People wrote to me
privately explaining they left because of him, or requesting he be removed
or they will leave. I did send this individual a warning message, which he
viewed as an attack. His on list behavior became increasingly rude and
abrasive, and I gave him the boot.
Now he plans to sue me. Some clips from one of his emails to me:
"I have saved all the evidence of slander posted from your list-server."
"Due to your in-attention in enforcing your own rules, I'm afraid I've
lost revenue, which I can prove in court."
"Your unfair rule enforcement also abridges my right to free speech, so a
civil rights violation is also at issue."
"Looking forward to seeing you in court..."
This individual has been on the list for a good while, and only recently
went off the edge. A few days after kicking him off all the threads and
flames died down, and I wrote to him again. I explained why he was kicked,
and made the offer that he was welcome back as long as he behaved. His
response was litigious.
So my question is, what will happen if this goes to court? In my opinion
the legal threat is frivolous, but I am not a lawyer. It is my
understanding that a list I create/host/own is mine to do with as I
please.
I am anxious to hear from other list owners who may have run into similar
situations. Thanks for any insight you can offer.
-Mitch
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mitchell Leben Owner of epson-inkjet@leben.com mailing
mitch@leben.com list for all Epson Inkjet Printers. Send
http://www.leben.com/lists 'subscribe epson-inkjet' to majordomo@leben.com
From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 29 23:52:40 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA26522; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:49:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id XAA26504 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:49:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200])
by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA22850
for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:53:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA12369
for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:55:37 -0800
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued?
In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:28:30 -0600.
X-Copyright: (c) 1997 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved.
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:55:37 -0800
Message-ID: <12367.886146937@monkeys.com>
From: "Ronald F. Guilmette"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In message ,
Mitchell Leben wrote:
>Time for me to come out of the woodwork and ask a few questions.
>
>A list member has threatened to sue me because I first filtered posts from
>his account, then removed him from the list...
>...
>So my question is, what will happen if this goes to court? In my opinion
>the legal threat is frivolous, but I am not a lawyer. It is my
>understanding that a list I create/host/own is mine to do with as I
>please.
>
>I am anxious to hear from other list owners who may have run into similar
>situations. Thanks for any insight you can offer.
I don't run any lists, but you'll get my advice anyway.
There are two main rules you should follow:
Rule #1 is: Don't even worry about it until you get served with papers.
The odds are better than 99% that you never will.
This same sort of intimidation tactic and legal saber rattling happens just
about once every two weeks or so on the net to either one of the USENET news
spam cancelers or else to some netizen who has made the mistake of complain-
ing directly to an E-mail spammer about some E-mail spam. (You should never
complain to a spammer directly. Complain to his ISP instead and let his ISP
explain to him why what he did was wrong. It will have more of a lasting
effect that way.)
Anyway, few if any of the Kooks of the Internet ever actually follow thru
on these sort of threats. They are just hoping that the bluff alone will
be sufficient to allow them to get their way. As a matter of fact, I know
know of only one case... just one single documented case in all my years on
the net... where a Net-Jerk actually followed through on one of these threats
and actually sued someone, and that was when Sanford Wallace sued AOL for
his (alleged) right to spam _their_ network without restriction. (I'm not
sure but I think that case may still be pending. Either that or else he
lost. Even the judge who was hearing motions relating to a preliminary
restraining order in the case seemed to agree that Wallace's moronic
``freedom of speech'' legal theories were utterly bogus and utterly without
legal merit. Nobody has the right to tell you what to do with your private
property, not even the government... except in rare cases of eminent domain.)
Anyway, when trying to decide if you should be worried or not about these
sorts of threats, consider this... people who are _serious_ about suing
DO NOT generally announce their intentions with great fanfare and ranting
the way your kook has done. People who are serious about suing don't talk
about it, they just do it. In my experience, the very fact that someone
is _talking_ about suing you means that he isn't serious, and is just hoping
to get a rise out of you, or hoping that he can make you cower in unwarranted
fear of the legal process.
(Oh! And by the way, I have been threatened with lawsuits four times while
I've been fighting junk E-mail spam... twice by corporations... and I ain't
been sued yet.)
Note that even if worse comes to worse and the Jerk manages to get his head
out of his ass for long enough to be able to file legal papers, you _still_
will have plenty of opportunities to pacify him with some token gesture of
conciliation. The wheels of civil justice grind VERY VERY slowly. I have
a suit pending now against the jerk who subscription-bombed my server (twice),
and my attorney told me that _if_ the jerk manages to respond to the initial
papers (which he has 30 days to do), I _may_ get my day in court some 10
months after that 30 day response period runs out. In short, our legal
processe gives everyone plenty of time to reach friendly out-out-court
accomodations.
(If you want a whole long list of bogus legal threats along the same lines
as the one you received, just ask Chris Lewis, USENET spam canceler of long
standing, about all of the bogus legal threats he has endured over the past
couple of years. I'm sure that he has many funny stories to tell about
these. Also, it's really fun to see one of these spammer jerks show up
in one of the news.admin.net-abuse.* newsgroups... as they do on occasion,
just to give us all a laugh... and to then see them threaten Chris or some
other spam canceler with a lawsuit based upon the first amendment. The
really hilarious part is the way that they all slink quietly back into
obscurity when someone explains to them that Chris lives in Canada, and
that they don't have the same laws or courts as we here in the U.S. do. :-)
Rule #2 is: Now that you have received the threat, DO NOT respond in any
way to the jerk ever again... no E-mails, no snail-mail, no phone calls, no
nuthin'. Do not respond TO HIM and also do not write or talk ABOUT HIM in
or on your mailing list or in or on any other fora. As far as is humanly
possible, you must now pretend that he doesn't exist. Archive every E-mail
or snail-mail that he sends you, but DO NOT respond in any way to any of
them. If he calls you, just tell him that your attorney has advised you
not to talk to him. If he asks you for the name and/or address of your
attorney, tell him that your attorney has also advised you not to give
out that information and then say goodbye and hang up.
Trust me on this. Once someone makes a legal threat, even if the odds are
very very high that it is utterly bogus (as it is in this case) you _must_
totally disengage from that person and direct all further correspondance to
your attorney. But keep in mind that it is NOT your responsibility to tell
the jerk who your attorney is. If he wants to be a prick, let him go and
do his own research.
Of course there are other good reasons to totally cease communications of
any kind with this guy once he has made a legal threat. One is that this
insures that if you _have_ in fact said or done anything ``actionable'',
then at least you won't be doing it again. Another is that total silence
is probably the single best way to get him to forget about the whole thing.
And last but certainly not least, total silence is (in my opinion) one of
the best and most eloquent ways of saying (in effect) ``Don't go away mad...
just go away.''
-- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc.
-- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/
-- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 01:25:33 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA02125; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:39:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id AAA02115 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:39:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from stinson.amys-answers.com (amys-answers.com [205.160.203.108]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id FAA05640 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:00:32 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199801231300.FAA05640@honor.greatcircle.com>
Received: from basement (205.161.197.98) by stinson.amys-answers.com (LSMTP Lite for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.93B81760@stinson.amys-answers.com>; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 7:50:30 -0500
Comments: Authenticated sender is
From: "Amy Stinson"
Organization: Amy's Answers
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, LISTSERV-LITE@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:51:18 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: AOL changes?
Reply-to: amys@amys-answers.com
In-reply-to:
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Yesterday I had a list member write me and tell me that she had not
gotten any mail from my list site in over a day (extremely high
volume list so she *should* have gotten mail). A scan of members
showed her on there and receiving mail in index format. When I
checked the smtp logs, this message occurred:
13:45:35 *** Would have refused mail from <> for
from 205.160.203.108
Nothing has changed at my end. I receive the index for myself from
another account on a different machine just fine. It seems to be
only AOL and these people are not getting their mail.
any suggestions?
amy
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 01:29:02 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA07822; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 01:16:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from praline.no.neosoft.com (praline.no.NeoSoft.COM [206.27.160.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id BAA07568 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 01:15:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 3184 invoked by uid 10086); 30 Jan 1998 09:20:07 -0000
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 03:20:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Ray Jones
To: Mitchell Leben
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued?
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Mitchell Leben wrote:
> So my question is, what will happen if this goes to court? In my opinion
> the legal threat is frivolous, but I am not a lawyer. It is my
> understanding that a list I create/host/own is mine to do with as I
> please.
>
> I am anxious to hear from other list owners who may have run into similar
> situations. Thanks for any insight you can offer.
I've never run into it and I'm not a lawyer, but it is definitely
frivilous if your list is run like most. Are you charging for the list or
is it a privilege that comes with membership to some organization or
something similar? If so, perhaps. Otherwise, I wouldn't loose any sleep
over it.
If the list is like most I've ever heard of, it is run free of charge with
you providing the labor and is done as a labor of love. Anyone on the list
is there simply because you feel like letting them. It is not a right and
it is not a public forum except as you allow it to be. His charge that you
are violating his right to free speech is ludricous. The Constitution does
provide that the government must not pass any laws limiting freedom of
speech, but it does not require that private citizens (or even the
government for that matter) provide such a forum. A person may be able to
stand outside the Pentagon or the White House and protest or say what they
feel, but try going inside into areas that are not open to the public. In
fact, I bet you couldn't even get by with it in many areas that ARE open
to the public and that's government property.
A person may have the right to stand in the street or on the sidewalk in
front of your house and preach from a soapbox, but he doesn't have the
right to do so in your front yard. If your list is like most, it is a
private list and no one has any rights whatsoever unless you grant them.
They can be taken away as you see fit as well.
I wouldn't even do him the honor of a reply. Just "bounce" all of his mail
back to him or simply delete it.
--
Regards,
"Big Ray the Cab Driver" Jones - Licensed Tour Guide ICQ UIN 1473313
Disseminating info about New Orleans & Louisiana via my web page at
http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html
or you can join "Big Ray's" New Orleans Mailing List by sending:
subscribe noml To: majordomo@communique.net
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 01:33:20 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA06361; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:59:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id AAA06353 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:59:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from beltway.cd.com (beltway.cd.com [204.217.30.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id HAA19404 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:59:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bif.cd.com by beltway.cd.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4)
id AA28468; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:03:07 -0600
Received: by bif.cd.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
id KAA23859; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:02:25 -0600
From: richardm@cd.com (Richard Masoner)
Message-Id: <199801261602.KAA23859@bif.cd.com>
Subject: broken RFC headers
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:02:24 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Greetings.
First, I suppose an intro is in order. I've been browsing the
list-manager list archives and enjoy reading the discussions. I can
relate very well to clueless newby stories, unsubscribe requests sent
to the list (although instructions on doing this and other list
functions is now a part of my sig file, fer cryin out loud), problems
with MS Outlook attachments, and bounced mail from Juno. So I joined
this list :-)
I've been running a general discussion list since 1993. To circumvent
problems with spam and trollers, the list became subscriber-only in
1994. Because the list is of a religious nature and because of the
diverse yet strongly held views held by the listmembers, I had to take
it moderated later that same year. And because people can't figure out
how to use filters, I limit posts to 35 each day. The list has been
running right around 220 subscribers for the past couple of years. I've
got scripts to automate a bunch of this stuff.
--
Now my question for the day: I have one recent subscriber who is
submitting messages with non-RFC compliant broken headers.
Specifically, he's using some beta copy of a mailer for Prodigy.
Listproc handles that just fine, and I haven't heard of anybody's MUA
breaking when they get his mail, but it makes our archiver core-dump.
I've asked the guy who maintains our archive about the possibility of
patching the archiver software, but of course he has a million-and-one
other things to do.
So in the meantime, we're zotting all submissions from this guy. We
(the other listowners and I) explained the problem to him, advised him
to contact Prodigy tech support and told him *exactly* what to tell
Prodigy. We suggested that he could use Prodigy to read his mail and
some free service (hotmail or Juno or something) to send messages to
the list.
The guy never writes back to us, but continues sending responses to
messages on the list. It's like he's not getting are mail, nor
noticing that his mail isn't getting distributed. We let him now each
time his message gets deleted. It's geting old.
Any ideas or comments?
Thanks,
Richard Masoner
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 01:37:49 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA02009; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:37:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id AAA01995 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:37:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ischia.iol.it (ischia.iol.it [195.210.91.100]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id EAA29468 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 04:09:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ischia.iol.it ([127.0.0.1]) by ischia.iol.it
(Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA21664;
Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:11:56 +0100
Received: from dante.iol.it ([195.210.91.2]) by capri.iol.it
(Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with ESMTP id AXX5E3E
for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:47:07 +0100
Received: from relay4.UU.NET ([192.48.96.14]) by dante.iol.it
(Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA7359
for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:21:04 +0100
Received: from honor.greatcircle.com by relay4.UU.NET with ESMTP
(peer crosschecked as: honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44])
id QQdyzo02776; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:06:09 -0500 (EST)
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA04653; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:59:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id AAA04637 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:58:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tera.bctel.net (tera.bctel.net [204.174.64.252]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id KAA09627 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:34:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from nobody@localhost) by tera.bctel.net (8.7.6/8.7.1) id KAA11748; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:33:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from beavis.bctel.net(204.174.66.19) by tera.bctel.net via smap (V2.0)
id xma011718; Fri, 16 Jan 98 10:33:11 -0800
Received: (from murrell@localhost)
by beavis.bctel.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20829;
Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:33:03 -0800 (PST)
From: brian@ilinx.com
Message-Id: <199801161833.KAA20829@beavis.bctel.net>
X-Authentication-Warning: beavis.bctel.net: murrell set sender to brian@ilinx.com using -f
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:33:02 -0800 (PST)
To: mcook@unidial.com
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Outlook 98 beta
In-Reply-To: <34BEB002.4FE34A06@unidial.com>
X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.2-980107-sol
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
from the quill of Merrill Cook on scroll
<34BEB002.4FE34A06@unidial.com>
> I just loaded the Outlook 98 beta. I noticed something that looks kinda
> odd:
Why does this not surprise me?
> When I reply to a note that has a "Sender" (header) that is different
> from the "From:" header, Outlook is including BOTH the sender and the
> >From address in the reply.
Oh yeah...This is definately illegal. Perhaps somebody needs to print off
some RFCs in large font print.
So does anybody know definitively, is there a real shortage of brain cells
at MS in the RFC reading and implementing department? I mean how difficult
is it to read a recipie (the RFC) and just make your software do what the
RFC says it MUST (and hopefully SHOULD) do? Sheesh.
> Don't most list management packages use "list-owner" for the Sender?
> Won't this default behavior be pretty nasty to the list-owners who will
> now get two copies of each message?
Yup, assuming they are on the lists they admin. :-)
> Is there any way to get a loud message to Microsoft to stop doing it
> this way, or at least to make it a configurable option that is turned
> off by default (so a simple reply goes only to the "From:" field, not
> the "sender").
--
Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com
InterLinx Support Services, Inc.
North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX
Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 08:30:08 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA11935; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:07:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id IAA11624 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:06:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost)
by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA22342;
Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:09:38 -0600
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:09:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Mitchell Leben
To: Ray Jones
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued?
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Ray Jones wrote:
> I've never run into it and I'm not a lawyer, but it is definitely
> frivilous if your list is run like most. Are you charging for the list or
> is it a privilege that comes with membership to some organization or
> something similar? If so, perhaps. Otherwise, I wouldn't loose any sleep
> over it.
This is a 'normal' list open to the public. I do not charge for
membership, and zubscription is the member's choice.
> is there simply because you feel like letting them. It is not a right and
> it is not a public forum except as you allow it to be. His charge that you
> are violating his right to free speech is ludricous.
I think this is the heart of the matter. He has no given right to
participate on my list, and if I kick him off he has no recourse. Some
people are just chomping at the bit to sue. Perhaps he intends to drain my
million$. If so, he has quite a surprise in store.
-Mitch
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 08:38:15 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA29534; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:16:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id HAA29506 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:16:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost)
by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA21443;
Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:18:57 -0600
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:18:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Mitchell Leben
To: Vince Sabio
cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued?
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Vince Sabio wrote:
> I run half a dozen lists, and I've been there before -- as have most
> active list owners that I know.
This my first, 'earning my wings' I suppose. I now have four busy lists
going.
> In short, it's just bleating. Ignore it. I've heard probably HUNDREDS
> of "I'm going to sue you" cases -- but not a SINGLE suit that has ever
> actually been filed.
Many people have written to me off list citing the same thing: Never heard
of a case actually going to court. He and I did have a couple of email
exchanges, but for the most part I was silent. I never mentioned his name
on the list.
> Chances are, if it ever happens, I'll be the first one served.
> I'll be sure to keep everyone abreast of the details when that happens.
Gee Vince, thanks for offering to chart the waters for us. Perhaps
something truly significant will come of such a case (ie. setting
precedent for the rest of us).
-Mitch
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 08:48:49 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA25918; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:58:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id GAA25803 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:58:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com
via smtpd (for honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) with SMTP; 30 Jan 1998 15:02:44 UT
Received: from horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (horton.whoville.leftbank.com [139.167.32.35]) by zax.leftbank.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) with ESMTP id KAA03353; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:02:42 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/http://www.LeftBank.Com) id KAA03199; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:02:42 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <19980130100242.32370@leftbank.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:02:42 -0500
From: "Nathan J. Mehl"
To: Mitchell Leben
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued?
References:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85
In-Reply-To: ; from Mitchell Leben on Thu, Jan 29, 1998 at 11:28:30PM -0600
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In the immortal words of Mitchell Leben (mitch@leben.com):
>
> A list member has threatened to sue me because I first filtered posts from
> his account, then removed him from the list. He became the center of a
> flame war, and caused many people to leave the list.
>
> Now he plans to sue me. Some clips from one of his emails to me:
>
> "I have saved all the evidence of slander posted from your list-server."
> "Due to your in-attention in enforcing your own rules, I'm afraid I've
> lost revenue, which I can prove in court."
> "Your unfair rule enforcement also abridges my right to free speech, so a
> civil rights violation is also at issue."
> "Looking forward to seeing you in court..."
Oy. One of _them_.
First and foremost, I strongly recommend that you _not_ lose any
sleep over this. The ratio of people on the net who threaten to sue
to those that actually do is staggeringly high. This person sounds
to me like a standard-issue blusterer. He just wants to yank your
chain. If he were actually going to sue for damages, he would be
having his lawyer send you a summons, not personally badgering you
with email.
(And as Joe-Bob Briggs pointed out a while back, sueing somebody
is not the cathartic, People's Court-esque experience that most of
these morons seem to think it is. Lawsuits take YEARS, and they
mostly consist of lawyers sending letters back and forth. Very few
of them actually see the inside of a courtroom. Your rude little
friend would probably be greatly disappointed.)
I have a short form reponse that I use with these types, and I
strongly recommend it:
Since you have threatened me with litigation, I am
afraid that I can no longer communicate with you, lest
I jeopardize my interests in the discovery phase of
any possible court action. Please direct any further
correspondence by means of registered postal mail to
my attorney, who you can reach at .
And then, start bouncing all of their mail. (If you own your own
box, I can provide you with a sendmail ruleset to do this; if not,
you can use procmail.)
> So my question is, what will happen if this goes to court? In my opinion
> the legal threat is frivolous, but I am not a lawyer. It is my
> understanding that a list I create/host/own is mine to do with as I
> please.
Entirely frivolous. He'd have to prove monetary damage in order
to collect anything, and that would be damn close to impossible.
The only seriously threatening part of it is how much of your time
it could take up, but since it would also take up an equal amount
of _his_ time, I wouldn't sweat it.
-n
--
The life of a sysadmin is always intense!
Nathan J. Mehl --- The LeftBank Operation
nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com
A Global Internet Company. http://www.gi.net
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 08:54:56 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA17238; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:47:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id IAA13736 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:14:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from plaidworks.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426)
id IAA00212; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:17:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70])
by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26250
; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:20:23 -0800
X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com
Message-Id:
In-Reply-To: <199801261602.KAA23859@bif.cd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:14:51 -0800
To: richardm@cd.com (Richard Masoner), List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: broken RFC headers
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 8:02 AM -0800 1/26/98, Richard Masoner wrote:
> The guy never writes back to us, but continues sending responses to
> messages on the list. It's like he's not getting are mail, nor
> noticing that his mail isn't getting distributed. We let him now each
> time his message gets deleted. It's geting old.
>
> Any ideas or comments?
Unsubscribe him -- and tell him he can't rejoin until his mailer works
right. That he can't ignore quite so easily. At least he's likely to
stop blowing you off.....
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 09:06:43 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA15628; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:11:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ns.telephonet.com ([207.254.96.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id GAA15547 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:11:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA19974; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:15:19 -0500
Message-Id:
In-Reply-To:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Organization: Little to None
X-Mailer: Eudora 4.0 for Cray T3E-1200
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:23:42 -0500
To: Mitchell Leben
From: Vince Sabio
Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued?
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
** Sometime around 0:28 -0500 1/30/98, Mitchell Leben said:
>Time for me to come out of the woodwork and ask a few questions.
>
>A list member has threatened to sue me because I first filtered posts from
>his account, then removed him from the list. He became the center of a
::snip the usual lawsuit stuff::
>I am anxious to hear from other list owners who may have run into similar
>situations. Thanks for any insight you can offer.
I run half a dozen lists, and I've been there before -- as have most
active list owners that I know.
In short, it's just bleating. Ignore it. I've heard probably HUNDREDS
of "I'm going to sue you" cases -- but not a SINGLE suit that has ever
actually been filed.
Chances are, if it ever happens, I'll be the first one served.
I'll be sure to keep everyone abreast of the details when that happens.
:-)
- Vince Sabio
vince@humournet.com
Automatically process bounces from mailing lists:
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 09:54:39 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA18651; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:53:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id AAA28821 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:05:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70])
by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA17840
; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:11:42 -0800
X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com
Message-Id:
In-Reply-To: <12367.886146937@monkeys.com>
References: Your message of Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:28:30 -0600.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:09:19 -0800
To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued?
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 11:55 PM -0800 1/29/98, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
> Rule #1 is: Don't even worry about it until you get served with papers.
> The odds are better than 99% that you never will.
The couple of times I've run into guys who pull this stunt, my
immediate response is "because litigation has been threatened, all
future discussion must go through legal counsel. Have your lawyer
contact me and I'll put them in touch with my counsel, because we can
no longer communicate directly."
And then reject all future mail from the guy that doesn't include a
lawyer's phone number. Don't respond in any way. In fact, if you have
spam blocking, block the account and/or site, and tell them to mail you
the legal info via US mail.
If he's going to use everything you say as evidence in whatever suit
he's threatening,you are perfectly justified in cutting off discussion
with him. In fact, legally, you probably should to minimize his ability
to build a case against you. And since you want to get rid of him
anyway, it's a great reason to do so. and if they are able to find a
lawyer to pay attention to them, you have a better chance of dealing
with them rationally. But the likelihood, unless it's uncle george
doing him a favor, is really small. Especially when the lawyer quotes
his hourly rate.
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 10:09:25 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA18836; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:55:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id HAA03928 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:35:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost)
by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA21836;
Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:38:21 -0600
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:38:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Mitchell Leben
To: "Nathan J. Mehl"
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued?
In-Reply-To: <19980130100242.32370@leftbank.com>
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Nathan J. Mehl wrote:
> Oy. One of _them_.
A not-so-rare breed I take it? Is it genetic?
> First and foremost, I strongly recommend that you _not_ lose any
> sleep over this. The ratio of people on the net who threaten to sue
> to those that actually do is staggeringly high. This person sounds
> to me like a standard-issue blusterer. He just wants to yank your
> chain.
Too late for the sleep thing. I spent a few hours one night reviewing list
archives, trying to figure out why a contributing list member went sour. I
also printed out the entire episode, just to be safe.
> If he were actually going to sue for damages, he would be
> having his lawyer send you a summons, not personally badgering you
> with email.
The summons would take a bit of time, so I do not feel completely out of
the woods yet. I realize the numbers are on my side, but this whole thing
is now only two to three weeks old. No doubt he is full of hot air. If
anything *does* happen, this list will hear all about it (laws permitting
of course).
> (And as Joe-Bob Briggs pointed out a while back, sueing somebody
> is not the cathartic, People's Court-esque experience that most of
> these morons seem to think it is.
Ten minutes to Whoppener!!
> Lawsuits take YEARS, and they mostly consist of lawyers sending letters
> back and forth. Very few of them actually see the inside of a
> courtroom. Your rude little friend would probably be greatly
> disappointed.)
Perhaps he envisions me on the stand, receiving scowls from the jury. "Mr.
Leben is an evil man your honor..." Stranger things happen every day.
> I have a short form reponse that I use with these types, and I
> strongly recommend it:
With your permission, I will modify this and keep it on hand.
> And then, start bouncing all of their mail. (If you own your own
> box, I can provide you with a sendmail ruleset to do this; if not,
> you can use procmail.)
I wonder what causes blood to boil more, being sent to /dev/null or
bounced mail? A while ago I had another disgruntled list member on AOL who
put me in his spam filter. I was quite relieved to see the bounce stating
he would ignore all mail from my address! One less headache to deal with.
> Entirely frivolous. He'd have to prove monetary damage in order
> to collect anything, and that would be damn close to impossible.
I am guessing he holds that he spent X hours dealing with the problem, and
he makes $x.xx an hour... If that is the case then I have him licked, at
least on the time spent.
> The only seriously threatening part of it is how much of your time
> it could take up, but since it would also take up an equal amount
> of _his_ time, I wouldn't sweat it.
If this does go through, I assume he will loose. The counter suit might be
interesting though!
> The life of a sysadmin is always intense!
Ain't that the truth!
-Mitch
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 11:12:55 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA14069; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:56:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id KAA13837 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:55:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from core0.mx.execpc.com (core0.mx.execpc.com [169.207.16.7])
by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id MAA17036;
Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:59:43 -0600 (CST)
Received: from presario-7212 (jaemus-24.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.41.25])
by core0.mx.execpc.com (8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA19632;
Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:59:27 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <34D21B33.350A@execpc.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:25:55 -0600
From: Gillam Kerley
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mitchell Leben
CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued?
References:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Mitchell Leben wrote:
[snip]
>
> Now he plans to sue me.
As previous responses have suggested, the chances of his actually suing
you are slim to none. However, since I think there are some
theoretically interesting legal questions here, I'll continue point by
point:
> Some clips from one of his emails to me:
>
> "I have saved all the evidence of slander posted from your list-server."
If *you* wrote something about him which was both false and defamatory
and sent it out to the list (or to any third party), he does have a
cause of action for libel. Whether he can prove damages is another
question. I suspect that the law is not clear as to whether you as
list-owner are liable for libelous comments disseminated by others
through your list.
There is a 1970s landmark case here in Wisconsin holding that a
contract printer is not liable for the libelous content of a newspaper
printed there, where the printer had no editorial authority over the
content. (I don't know the extent to which other states have followed
this reasoning; you could be sued in any state where one or more of
your subscribers received e-mail.) And, of course, the phone company
isn't liable for slanderous statements made over its phone lines.
On the other hand, the publisher of a newspaper is potentially liable
for every item in the newspaper, even letters to the editor, because the
publisher does have editorial authority. Transmitting a libelous
statement made by another is libel.
So, the question would be, are you as list-owner going to be treated
like a contract printer or like a publisher. IMO, that will turn on
whether your list is moderated. If posts are automatically forwarded to
your subscribers without any human intervention, then I think you are
not liable for their content. If you have to approve content, then I
would expect a court to hold you accountable if you approve libel. If
you "retro-moderate" by no-posting subscribers based on their content,
and fail to stop a subscriber from repeatedly engaging in libel, it
could go either way, IMO.
>
> "Due to your in-attention in enforcing your own rules, I'm afraid I've
> lost revenue, which I can prove in court."
Is the relationship between list-owner and subscriber governed by
contract law? A contract does not require that money change hands;
"I'll mop your floor if you wash my car" is a valid contract. On the
other hand, a one-sided promise ("I'll wash your car.") is not an
enforceable contract.
It's clear that the list-owner provides something of value to the
subscriber, but does the subscriber provide something of value to the
list-owner? The subscribers generally provide content, without which
the list would be worthless. But an individual subscriber ordinarily
makes no pledge to participate, or to read, or to do anything other than
not violate the rules and disrupt the list. Is that enough mutuality to
make a contract? Probably not.
>
> "Your unfair rule enforcement also abridges my right to free speech, so a
> civil rights violation is also at issue."
As a previous response pointed out, the First Amendment applies only to
governmental action. Unless your list-server is run off of a federal,
state, or municipal (including university) computer, there is no "state
action" here. If you're using a governmental list-server, liability
under the sec. 1983 of the civil rights statutes cannot be ruled out.
OTOH, if the question were kicking someone off because of race, the
question would be not whether you were a governmental entity but whether
a list-server is a public accommodation.
> It is my
> understanding that a list I create/host/own is mine to do with as I
> please.
The law of the Internet and electronic comunications is in its infancy,
and the best we can do is to extrapolate from traditional law.
Nothing, however, is completely yours to do with as you please, either
in cyberspace or real life. If you buy a building, create a restaurant,
and host customers, you can't (1) exclude customers because of race, (2)
violate health laws, (3) drop hot coffee in customers laps, or (4) burn
the place down, to name a few. You do have pretty complete freedom in
deciding whether to serve Thai food or Ethiopian, how to price your
menu, what color to paint the walls, etc.
Exactly where the line between those two categories is what makes life
interesting (and lawyers rich).
GK
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 11:55:52 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA02489; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:30:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA02375 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:29:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA28885; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:34:23 -0600 (CST)
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Cc: richardm@cd.com (Richard Masoner)
Subject: Re: broken RFC headers
References:
Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
From: Jason L Tibbitts III
Date: 30 Jan 1998 13:34:22 -0600
In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:14:51 -0800
Message-ID:
Lines: 16
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach writes:
CVR> Unzubscribe him -- and tell him he can't rejoin until his mailer works
CVR> right. That he can't ignore quite so easily. At least he's likely to
CVR> stop blowing you off.....
And while you're at it, fix your archiver. It shouldn't ever dump core.
(Hypermail has been known to die when given duplicate Message-IDs, but you
should have the source to fix it. I've never seen MHonArc crash on a bad
message.)
The point is that you do need to force this person to send legal messages,
but you also need to protect yourself against some remote user being able
to blow up your archiver at will.
- J<
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 12:01:04 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA01353; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:24:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tcp.com (tcp.com [207.126.126.64]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id WAA08565 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:20:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (jlick@localhost) by tcp.com (8.8.8/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA02912 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:24:46 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:24:45 -0800 (PST)
From: James Lick
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued?
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
The correct answer at this point is to refuse to answer him in any way
except through his lawyer. If you have a lawyer on retainer send the
lawyer's name/address/phone and tell him to go through him/her. It is
pointless to discuss anything with anyone who has threatened to sue and
could be damaging to you if the other person actually has a case.
But, that said, anyone offering a service will eventually get threatened
by a suit. Every list manager will probably go through this at some
point. Bottom line, it is a private resource that you offer at your
discretion, and you have the right to refuse service to anyone for ANY
reason other than a few matters of discrimination and other factors that
probably don't apply.
I have been threatened with suits a handful of times over list activities.
They always go away because they have zero chance and they know it. One
of them even thought her Internet access fee paid for my list and
threatened me over that which gave me a good chuckle and made up for her
comparing me to Hitler.
-- James Lick -- jlick@drivel.com -- http://drivel.com/jlick/ --
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 12:06:43 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA06014; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:04:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id MAA06007 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:04:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 14240 invoked by uid 500); 30 Jan 1998 20:09:07 -0000
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued?
References: <12367.886146937@monkeys.com>
From: Russ Allbery
In-Reply-To: "Ronald F. Guilmette"'s message of "Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:55:37 -0800"
Date: 30 Jan 1998 12:09:06 -0800
Message-ID:
Lines: 47
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Ronald F Guilmette writes:
> Trust me on this. Once someone makes a legal threat, even if the odds
> are very very high that it is utterly bogus (as it is in this case) you
> _must_ totally disengage from that person and direct all further
> correspondance to your attorney. But keep in mind that it is NOT your
> responsibility to tell the jerk who your attorney is. If he wants to be
> a prick, let him go and do his own research.
(Note disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.)
I'd like to second this. I've had people threaten to sue me before over
Usenet newsgroup creation issues, but they don't realize the way the law
works.
First, if he sues you, it's a civil complaint. That means that *all* of
the cost, hassle, research, discovery, and so forth are born by him. He
gets to pay every last cent of it up until he gets a judgement against you
(which is highly unlikely). The absolute *most* he can do is waste your
time or make you retain a lawyer.
Second, you are not required to provide him with ANYTHING. And I mean
*ANYTHING*. You are not required to talk to him. You are not required to
give him contact information. You are not required to tell him where you
work, where you live, what state you are in, what *country* you are in,
who your lawyer is, how to contact you, how to serve you, or anything else
of the sort. What Ron said is precisely accurate; don't say another word
to him anywhere, anytime.
You are, furthermore, not required to talk to his lawyer either. With
precisely the same parameters.
This is a civil complaint. As such, there is absolutely *nothing* you
have to do for him until he manages to get a court to send you official
papers, and the process involved in doing that involves untold hassle and
expense on his part, far more than enough to scare off all but the most
psychotic and dedicated assholes.
And, as an unexpected bonus, if you tell him you are no longer talking to
him due to the fact that he's mentioning legal action and specifically
tell him you are not interested in any further correspondence with him,
and he then attempts to continue contacting you, not only is he
potentially compromising his own case, you can make a case against him for
harassment if the need arises.
--
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 12:21:44 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA06824; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:11:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA06813 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:11:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172])
by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA49560
; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:14:35 -0800
Message-Id:
In-Reply-To: <199801301947.NAA09436@lotharon.endicor.com>
References: Your message of Thu,
29 Jan 1998 23:28:30 -0600.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:52:49 -0800
To: Ty Sarna , chuqui@plaidworks.com
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued?
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
>This assumes the guy has or will get a lawyer. Many of these nut jobs
>think they're going to act "pro se", brilliant legal minds that they
>are.
>
>This defeats the "tell me you're lawyer's name and I'll put him in touch
>with my lawyer"
Nope. I decline to deal with him. In that case, I tell him I'll wait for
the legal paperwork and interact with him through the court. If he IS that
stupid/arrogant/whatever, I want a judge watching things, so he has to file
paperwork before I'll do anything more.
If he actually does file paperwork, I'd immediately go for a dismissal and
explain things to the judge, and let him have a good laugh.
From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 30 12:47:34 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA10334; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:32:23 -0800 (PST)
Received: from beltway.cd.com (beltway.cd.com [204.217.30.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id MAA10317 for