I am dragged to God daily. Over the years he has pulled me along kicking and screaming. Today he drags me much like a child who doesn't want to go to school. This is by no power of my own. This I know as fact. I was dragged to repentence. I am being dragged along this course of sanctification. I am being dragged to faith, obedience and usefulness. Was I able to make choices for myself during this process? I believe so. That doesn't mean he won't use every bad choice I make to teach, guide and direct me. My God knows the ending of my story. I can not get there by my own will. My choices lead to prison, death, and destruction. Thank God he is in control. Thank God he is indeed sovereign.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

If you are dying to self, as I used to believe, then I am continously kiilling a dead man. Self is dead, and a new creature are we.

Would you mind expounding upon that a bit? Specifically, in terms of sanctification or whatever term others use for the process of becoming Christlike. For me, my new creature has been 30 years in the making and the process still isn't finished (not by a long shot).

If you are dying to self, as I used to believe, then I am continously kiilling a dead man. Self is dead, and a new creature are we.

Would you mind expounding upon that a bit? Specifically, in terms of sanctification or whatever term others use for the process of becoming Christlike. For me, my new creature has been 30 years in the making and the process still isn't finished (not by a long shot).

Me too. But from what I can tell it does no good to continue to say that its the old man that is feeling the arrows of the enemy. The old man is dead. 1Co 15:31 Day by day, am I dying!—Yea! by your own boasting, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. Cant very much die daily if your dead. Nope its the new man (creature) thats doing the suffering and going through the purging, the lake of fire, the judging.Jas 1:2 All joy deem it, my brethren, whenever you should be falling into various trials,Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith is producing endurance.Jas 1:4 Now let endurance have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and unimpaired, lacking in nothing."

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

If you are dying to self, as I used to believe, then I am continously kiilling a dead man. Self is dead, and a new creature are we.

Would you mind expounding upon that a bit? Specifically, in terms of sanctification or whatever term others use for the process of becoming Christlike. For me, my new creature has been 30 years in the making and the process still isn't finished (not by a long shot).

Me too. But from what I can tell it does no good to continue to say that its the old man that is feeling the arrows of the enemy. The old man is dead. 1Co 15:31 Day by day, am I dying!—Yea! by your own boasting, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. Cant very much die daily if your dead. Nope its the new man (creature) thats doing the suffering and going through the purging, the lake of fire, the judging.Jas 1:2 All joy deem it, my brethren, whenever you should be falling into various trials,Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith is producing endurance.Jas 1:4 Now let endurance have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and unimpaired, lacking in nothing."

I can certainly agree with that. I'll tell you though Romans specifically throws me a few curve balls.

Romans Chapter 7

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin. I have heard various thoughts on this particular passage but this has always read to me as Paul's struggles with the flesh. I don't believe he was talking about how he used to be. It's almost like this duality within his own spirit that he speaks about. I believe it truth because I feel it myself. It's like I could have written this passage. I believe this passage is partly talking about the purifying fire. There is little if anything more painful than to know and love God's law (which is indeed spiritual and good) yet feel this turmoil within you to break it. As I have moved through this process many things that once owned me no longer have power. With that said, there are still fleshly pullings I have to white knuckle control. How easy is it to quickly anger? How easy is it to allow your eyes to wander in a world of flesh? But, yet we are new creatures?

I agree with what you said. I know we are new creatures but we still have times when we act in old ways...are drawn by old things. But, I believe the difference is the fact that these issues no longer bring death to us. They are now used as a purifying fire in our lives.

That is my best take on it but would appreciate any other insight because I know there is a great deal of spiritual substance in this topic.

Was GOD the "ventriloquist" of CHRIST who DID and SAID... NOTHING OF HIMSELF? -- John 5:19, 20 -- John 14:10

Well, you tell me...Is he/was he the divine ventriloquist? I did ask you after all.

YHVH is God... and the Father and GOD of CHRIST -- Eph 1:3 -- He is his HEAD -- 1 Cor 11:3 -- and the source of ALL CHRIST did and said as well as being above Him, as in conclusion, CHRIST is subject to YHVH -- 1 Cor 15:27 -- not the other way around.

You did ask, and I answered the question... which displayed that CHRIST admitted in HIS OWN WORDS, that He did and said nothing of Himself, ...yet in a life lived which SAID and DID only what YHVH decided He would do and say, ...Yet you do not percieve Him to be a "puppet"...

And when I claim the very same thing is occuring in ALL OTHER MEN, you say that if this method is (truly) applied to US, it means that we ARE puppets... That is double standard thinking.

Like saying its okay and NOT "DIVINE VENTRILOQUISM" for CHRIST to be limited to doing only what YHVH says to DO and SAY, ...but that if our lives are IN TRUTH, enacted in the very SAME WAY, ...it becomes "DIVINE VENTRILOQUISM"...

Of course, this question doesn't just apply to Christ only, but to mankind in general.

Oh yes, it does...

If this method (of doing and saying nothing of Himself) applies to the GREAT EXALTED, ONLY BEGOTTEN SON... then it SURELY applies to ALL the lesser ones... That CHRIST did and said NOTHING of Himself, and He was GREATER than are WE... surely places us in a position which is at the very MOST, must in EVERY scenario, be lesser than He...

So...

If HE did and said NOTHING of Himself and, ...He IS NOT a "puppet" --- being manipulated by the "divine ventriloquist"...

And that if the very same thing is true of US, ...how can it be concluded by you, ...that WE ARE "puppets" being manipulated by the "divine ventriloquist"...

That's nuts.

As I see it... EITHER...

(1) --- CHRISTwas a puppet (doing and saying nothing of Himself) and we ARE NOT puppets on the basis that we DO and SAY of ourselves... OR...

(2) --- CHRISTwas not a puppet (because He did not do and say of Himself), and WE are not puppets either (doing and saying nothing of ourselves)... and that,

ALL SONS (including the FIRSTBORN) are the WORK of the hand of YHVH God as the WORD says we are -- Eph 1:11 -- Rom 9:21 -- which is doing ALL and saying ALL, within HIS Revelation of HIS KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

If you are dying to self, as I used to believe, then I am continously kiilling a dead man. Self is dead, and a new creature are we.

Would you mind expounding upon that a bit? Specifically, in terms of sanctification or whatever term others use for the process of becoming Christlike. For me, my new creature has been 30 years in the making and the process still isn't finished (not by a long shot).

Me too. But from what I can tell it does no good to continue to say that its the old man that is feeling the arrows of the enemy. The old man is dead. 1Co 15:31 Day by day, am I dying!—Yea! by your own boasting, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. Cant very much die daily if your dead. Nope its the new man (creature) thats doing the suffering and going through the purging, the lake of fire, the judging.Jas 1:2 All joy deem it, my brethren, whenever you should be falling into various trials,Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith is producing endurance.Jas 1:4 Now let endurance have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and unimpaired, lacking in nothing."

I can certainly agree with that. I'll tell you though Romans specifically throws me a few curve balls.

Romans Chapter 7

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin. I have heard various thoughts on this particular passage but this has always read to me as Paul's struggles with the flesh. I don't believe he was talking about how he used to be. It's almost like this duality within his own spirit that he speaks about. I believe it truth because I feel it myself. It's like I could have written this passage. I believe this passage is partly talking about the purifying fire. There is little if anything more painful than to know and love God's law (which is indeed spiritual and good) yet feel this turmoil within you to break it. As I have moved through this process many things that once owned me no longer have power. With that said, there are still fleshly pullings I have to white knuckle control. How easy is it to quickly anger? How easy is it to allow your eyes to wander in a world of flesh? But, yet we are new creatures?

I agree with what you said. I know we are new creatures but we still have times when we act in old ways...are drawn by old things. But, I believe the difference is the fact that these issues no longer bring death to us. They are now used as a purifying fire in our lives.

That is my best take on it but would appreciate any other insight because I know there is a great deal of spiritual substance in this topic.

Learn to recognize YOUR thoughts, and take action over what you know is not yours. Most people don't realize that the enemies of our soul speak to us, and we can hear them. Not like in some Exorcist movie, but they come in as thoughts. Receiving the mind of Christ daily has to do with discerning daily "who" is speaking to you.

I always use this example to explain it and let people see what I'm talking about. Have you ever walked over a high bridge, or been on a high building, and if only for a FLEETING second had a thought about would happen if you fell, what if you jumped, or any other variation of that theme? I've yet to meet one person in 24 years, that hasn't admitted to that experience. That thought, was NOT you, although it "felt" just like "you", because we are used to (initially) receiving thoughts of that origin our whole pre-Christ lives (and for many, even after).

The reason it comes, is because Satan tempted Jesus with the same kind of thought (cast thyself down), and the servant is not greater than the master. So with the Word in us as our "horizontal level", and the Spirit as our "plumbline", we can "help" (thru obedience) do the works necessary for the Son to be formed (come to maturity) in us. My Blessings.....

« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 05:38:43 PM by Cardinal »

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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

I know some Christians who believe they have arrived. I can not judge these individuals because I do not walk in their shoes. Maybe they are indeed as close to sin free as one can come in this life. For me the problem isn't recognizing what is of God and what is of satan. I believe I know when thoughts enter my mind...the source. But, I feel this inner termoil between that which is spiritual and life giving and that which is carnal (that which brings death). I feel that battle in my members. More times than not the spiritual wins the battle. I can't say that has always been the case in my walk. There have been compulsions in my life that were so strong that I had no idea how to be rid of them. But, God has dragged me along this process of sanctification. I have not always wanted to come along. But, since I believed in Jesus as my Lord and Savior I have noticed that God has used each and every one of my failings for education, purification, and pruning. This process has been painfully slow in my life. I see progress but I certainly don't see perfection.

Wow Cardinal, never thought of that before. My mind has done this very thing many times. I have pictured in my mind what if I fall, get hit by a car, all sorts of things like that and wondered why in the world did I think of that.

Was GOD the "ventriloquist" of CHRIST who DID and SAID... NOTHING OF HIMSELF? -- John 5:19, 20 -- John 14:10

Well, you tell me...Is he/was he the divine ventriloquist? I did ask you after all.

YHVH is God... and the Father and GOD of CHRIST -- Eph 1:3 -- He is his HEAD -- 1 Cor 11:3 -- and the source of ALL CHRIST did and said as well as being above Him, as in conclusion, CHRIST is subject to YHVH -- 1 Cor 15:27 -- not the other way around.

You did ask, and I answered the question... which displayed that CHRIST admitted in HIS OWN WORDS, that He did and said nothing of Himself, ...yet in a life lived which SAID and DID only what YHVH decided He would do and say, ...Yet you do not percieve Him to be a "puppet"...

And when I claim the very same thing is occuring in ALL OTHER MEN, you say that if this method is (truly) applied to US, it means that we ARE puppets... That is double standard thinking.

Like saying its okay and NOT "DIVINE VENTRILOQUISM" for CHRIST to be limited to doing only what YHVH says to DO and SAY, ...but that if our lives are IN TRUTH, enacted in the very SAME WAY, ...it becomes "DIVINE VENTRILOQUISM"...

Of course, this question doesn't just apply to Christ only, but to mankind in general.

Oh yes, it does...

If this method (of doing and saying nothing of Himself) applies to the GREAT EXALTED, ONLY BEGOTTEN SON... then it SURELY applies to ALL the lesser ones... That CHRIST did and said NOTHING of Himself, and He was GREATER than are WE... surely places us in a position which is at the very MOST, must in EVERY scenario, be lesser than He...

So...

If HE did and said NOTHING of Himself and, ...He IS NOT a "puppet" --- being manipulated by the "divine ventriloquist"...

And that if the very same thing is true of US, ...how can it be concluded by you, ...that WE ARE "puppets" being manipulated by the "divine ventriloquist"...

That's nuts.

As I see it... EITHER...

(1) --- CHRISTwas a puppet (doing and saying nothing of Himself) and we ARE NOT puppets on the basis that we DO and SAY of ourselves... OR...

(2) --- CHRISTwas not a puppet (because He did not do and say of Himself), and WE are not puppets either (doing and saying nothing of ourselves)... and that,

ALL SONS (including the FIRSTBORN) are the WORK of the hand of YHVH God as the WORD says we are -- Eph 1:11 -- Rom 9:21 -- which is doing ALL and saying ALL, within HIS Revelation of HIS KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

WillieH, our beliefs concerning Christ are quite different, and so the premise behind our terms is probably taken quite differently. But I'll try to explain;

You talk about Christ doing nothing of himself, and doing only what God decides for him to do - my belief would say that's perfectly fine, Jesus = God. Your beliefs have to answer for that somehow, and that is your journey.

But for mankind's case specifically, we are not Yahweh, and none of us ever will be Yahweh, so when applying "doing nothing of ourselves but only what God decides" becomes a problem if, (and I stress if) God is a divine ventriloquist (by pre-ordaining, or pre-programming every act, and blink, and sip of coffee a man takes, or even sin), and man is without will to act according to his own desires whether good or evil.

I have presented two options;

A. God is a Harmonious, the best way I could describe this is that we are dancing with God - we have wills, freedom of choice, and abilities, we are autonomous agents working through our circumstances, and thoughts, and leanings to make choices towards a, or b, or c, or none of the above.

In this dance, we must also move our own feet, and go with the music (spirit). Even if God leads (dancing term). In fact, the lead of God, is probably alot better described in terms of how one dance partner leads in a waltz, while the other follows of their own accord, but is harmoniously "dragged" through the steps in the dance. Dancing with God can be a beautiful waltz, if we choose to step faithfully with his leading as he drags us. Or it can turn into a wrestling match where we are dragged through the will of God as it unfolds, but fight against it, and end up having our hip disjointed.

or;

B. God is the divine ventriloquist who manipulates men's actions by pre-programmed ordinance. "I ordain that this man will sip his coffee, and he will do so because I shall make him do it."

The thing here, is that I want to stress the difference between "prediction" (He will sip his cup, I shall watch as he himself sips it) and "pre-programmed Fate" (I have decided that he will sip his cup, and so it is inevitable he has no choice, I have made him do it, it shall be done by my movements alone; unfortunately it is difficult to accurately describe a world in which autonomous will to act does not exist, a bit like trying to describe invisible colours). These are two ways in which something can be ordained, in the same way that God is either harmoniously dancing with us, of which we cooperate or wrestle against - using autonomous will to decide whether to dance or wrestle. Or he is ruling our every action according to his whim. If it is whim, then it is divine ventriloquism, if it is autonomy dancing with God, then it is harmony.

It is not a matter of whether or not mankind has a will, or whether God is a ventriloquist, or worse an illusionist who lets us pretend that we have autonomy, or freedom of choice (that would be God bearing false witness, and he has broken The Law). It has to do with who is responsible for their actions of evil.

If God is responsible (the cause) for the evil mankind does, then God has committed evil (sin) by proxy, and has made himself liable (or should be liable) to its punishment - man is innocent and sinless. But we are also then toys in the hands of an evil God. Though actually...he would also cease to be God anyway, because any being who is to be Supreme must be honest at all times. It is impossible to be The Supreme Being and lie, or be evil, or sin at the same time.

If God is not responsible (the cause) for the evil mankind does, then God is innocent, and it is mankind who is responsible. And here we need to be the adults and accept responsibility for our actions of which we will give an account for, and of which God will render according to our deeds.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

God will render to man according to man's deeds. Not God's deeds in controlling the man.

If man has no autonomy, then God is a ventriloquist - autonomy is the foundation for the ability to choose, or to have "will power". If man has autonomy, then man has "will power" and the ability to choose, even if that choice is not God's will, even if God in his omniscience pre-knows it (he already has a plan, but it wasn't his will; God will always get his way but that doesn't mean that he gets his way immediately, or else alot of the books of the Bible are in error because of "Rebellion").

So it boils down to two points; Are we autonomous, and responsible, able to sin. Or are we not autonomous - and therefore dummies that are not even truly alive (why live if you are a toy? how can one be alive when they are a just a sock for the hand of God to have playtime or pretend to have real friends?).

We also need to look at Sovereignty. Sovereignty doesn't necessitate absolute control down the the very act of blinking, it means that there is nothing that can over-ride the power of the sovereign - IE: No other king can take my castle, I am its sovereign. That doesn't mean that he decides when a maid's bladder feels the need to void, or when the cow in his barn shall go moo, however in God's case if he has the power to command soldiers, and servants - but they are autonomous agents whose plans, actions, and choices can rise or fall, or cause them to live or die beneath the sovereign will of their King.

Autonomy doesn't mean freedom from responsibility either, and neither does it mean total success. A man's choices, and plans in autonomy for good, or for evil are not guaranteed to succeed, and consequences follow for each choice, and man is not sovereign as God is.

It is of my belief and understanding that mankind is autonomous, and God is sovereign; that we all dance, or wrestle with God, but soon all shall be musical by the aligning of autonomous will to God's in the same way that the dancers are autonomous and free to dance or walk away - but the choreography is splendidly ordered by their cooperation with the beat and the Producer - who himself came to dance and show us how it is done.

Christ was the best dancer, and even his wrestling was elegant - we have two left feet, stubborn wills, and wrestle more than we waltz. But soon we'll know how to dance delightfully, and we won't have to be forced to do so, we'll dance by autonomous alignment in harmony...with not a single string attached.

Basically, I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy. (oddly enough the story of Pinocchio has alot of wisdom regarding God and Man, and wills.)

I know some Christians who believe they have arrived. I can not judge these individuals because I do not walk in their shoes. Maybe they are indeed as close to sin free as one can come in this life. For me the problem isn't recognizing what is of God and what is of satan. I believe I know when thoughts enter my mind...the source. But, I feel this inner termoil between that which is spiritual and life giving and that which is carnal (that which brings death). I feel that battle in my members. More times than not the spiritual wins the battle. I can't say that has always been the case in my walk. There have been compulsions in my life that were so strong that I had no idea how to be rid of them. But, God has dragged me along this process of sanctification. I have not always wanted to come along. But, since I believed in Jesus as my Lord and Savior I have noticed that God has used each and every one of my failings for education, purification, and pruning. This process has been painfully slow in my life. I see progress but I certainly don't see perfection.

? I'm not talking about "Christians who think they have arrived". I'm describing the process of Him being formed in us, until He is all in all, and EVERYONE is in that process whether they realize it or not. My Blessings.....

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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

WillieH, our beliefs concerning Christ are quite different, and so the premise behind our terms is probably taken quite differently. But I'll try to explain;

You talk about Christ doing nothing of himself, and doing only what God decides for him to do - my belief would say that's perfectly fine, Jesus = God. Your beliefs have to answer for that somehow, and that is your journey.

But for mankind's case specifically, we are not Yahweh, and none of us ever will be Yahweh, so when applying "doing nothing of ourselves but only what God decides" becomes a problem if, (and I stress if) God is a divine ventriloquist (by pre-ordaining, or pre-programming every act, and blink, and sip of coffee a man takes, or even sin), and man is without will to act according to his own desires whether good or evil.

I have presented two options;

A. God is a Harmonious, the best way I could describe this is that we are dancing with God - we have wills, freedom of choice, and abilities, we are autonomous agents working through our circumstances, and thoughts, and leanings to make choices towards a, or b, or c, or none of the above.

In this dance, we must also move our own feet, and go with the music (spirit). Even if God leads (dancing term). In fact, the lead of God, is probably alot better described in terms of how one dance partner leads in a waltz, while the other follows of their own accord, but is harmoniously "dragged" through the steps in the dance. Dancing with God can be a beautiful waltz, if we choose to step faithfully with his leading as he drags us. Or it can turn into a wrestling match where we are dragged through the will of God as it unfolds, but fight against it, and end up having our hip disjointed.

or;

B. God is the divine ventriloquist who manipulates men's actions by pre-programmed ordinance. "I ordain that this man will sip his coffee, and he will do so because I shall make him do it."

The thing here, is that I want to stress the difference between "prediction" (He will sip his cup, I shall watch as he himself sips it) and "pre-programmed Fate" (I have decided that he will sip his cup, and so it is inevitable he has no choice, I have made him do it, it shall be done by my movements alone; unfortunately it is difficult to accurately describe a world in which autonomous will to act does not exist, a bit like trying to describe invisible colours). These are two ways in which something can be ordained, in the same way that God is either harmoniously dancing with us, of which we cooperate or wrestle against - using autonomous will to decide whether to dance or wrestle. Or he is ruling our every action according to his whim. If it is whim, then it is divine ventriloquism, if it is autonomy dancing with God, then it is harmony.

It is not a matter of whether or not mankind has a will, or whether God is a ventriloquist, or worse an illusionist who lets us pretend that we have autonomy, or freedom of choice (that would be God bearing false witness, and he has broken The Law). It has to do with who is responsible for their actions of evil.

If God is responsible (the cause) for the evil mankind does, then God has committed evil (sin) by proxy, and has made himself liable (or should be liable) to its punishment - man is innocent and sinless. But we are also then toys in the hands of an evil God. Though actually...he would also cease to be God anyway, because any being who is to be Supreme must be honest at all times. It is impossible to be The Supreme Being and lie, or be evil, or sin at the same time.

If God is not responsible (the cause) for the evil mankind does, then God is innocent, and it is mankind who is responsible. And here we need to be the adults and accept responsibility for our actions of which we will give an account for, and of which God will render according to our deeds.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

God will render to man according to man's deeds. Not God's deeds in controlling the man.

If man has no autonomy, then God is a ventriloquist - autonomy is the foundation for the ability to choose, or to have "will power". If man has autonomy, then man has "will power" and the ability to choose, even if that choice is not God's will, even if God in his omniscience pre-knows it (he already has a plan, but it wasn't his will; God will always get his way but that doesn't mean that he gets his way immediately, or else alot of the books of the Bible are in error because of "Rebellion").

So it boils down to two points; Are we autonomous, and responsible, able to sin. Or are we not autonomous - and therefore dummies that are not even truly alive (why live if you are a toy? how can one be alive when they are a just a sock for the hand of God to have playtime or pretend to have real friends?).

We also need to look at Sovereignty. Sovereignty doesn't necessitate absolute control down the the very act of blinking, it means that there is nothing that can over-ride the power of the sovereign - IE: No other king can take my castle, I am its sovereign. That doesn't mean that he decides when a maid's bladder feels the need to void, or when the cow in his barn shall go moo, however in God's case if he has the power to command soldiers, and servants - but they are autonomous agents whose plans, actions, and choices can rise or fall, or cause them to live or die beneath the sovereign will of their King.

Autonomy doesn't mean freedom from responsibility either, and neither does it mean total success. A man's choices, and plans in autonomy for good, or for evil are not guaranteed to succeed, and consequences follow for each choice, and man is not sovereign as God is.

It is of my belief and understanding that mankind is autonomous, and God is sovereign; that we all dance, or wrestle with God, but soon all shall be musical by the aligning of autonomous will to God's in the same way that the dancers are autonomous and free to dance or walk away - but the choreography is splendidly ordered by their cooperation with the beat and the Producer - who himself came to dance and show us how it is done.

Christ was the best dancer, and even his wrestling was elegant - we have two left feet, stubborn wills, and wrestle more than we waltz. But soon we'll know how to dance delightfully, and we won't have to be forced to do so, we'll dance by autonomous alignment in harmony...with not a single string attached.

Basically, I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy. (oddly enough the story of Pinocchio has alot of wisdom regarding God and Man, and wills.)

...and boys will be boys.

However, God seeks mature men to whom He Will hand the Keys to the Kingdom.Ephesians 4:13

Hab 2:3 For yet the vision is for a season, And it breatheth for the end, and doth not lie, If it tarry, wait for it, For surely it cometh, it is not late.

1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, 1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

I know some Christians who believe they have arrived. I can not judge these individuals because I do not walk in their shoes. Maybe they are indeed as close to sin free as one can come in this life. For me the problem isn't recognizing what is of God and what is of satan. I believe I know when thoughts enter my mind...the source. But, I feel this inner termoil between that which is spiritual and life giving and that which is carnal (that which brings death). I feel that battle in my members. More times than not the spiritual wins the battle. I can't say that has always been the case in my walk. There have been compulsions in my life that were so strong that I had no idea how to be rid of them. But, God has dragged me along this process of sanctification. I have not always wanted to come along. But, since I believed in Jesus as my Lord and Savior I have noticed that God has used each and every one of my failings for education, purification, and pruning. This process has been painfully slow in my life. I see progress but I certainly don't see perfection.

? I'm not talking about "Christians who think they have arrived". I'm describing the process of Him being formed in us, until He is all in all, and EVERYONE is in that process whether they realize it or not. My Blessings.....

Agreed. The question is this...why is this process so hush hush? Why do many people who claim to love Christ so silent on their own personal failings and struggles? I have always gotten the impression that many of us try to act more spiritual than we actually are...and fail to acknowledge the fact that there are still carnal things in our being. Do we fear judgment from others? Do we want to be credited with something which is not ours?

I fear that there are many Christians who suffer silently. I think some of it revolves around this notion that we are new creatures...which we are. But, I believe that to be misunderstood by many. I believe many think that if we are "truly saved" then we always live like it. It's just my personal thinking but I believe the Christian community would be better served by those who are willing to be open and honest...serving each other, helping each other and asking for help in areas when needed.

I agree. IMO, I think there are many reasons why it is not discussed, including the ones you mentioned.

What I'm describing is the sanctification process, which also includes deliverance, which has gotten a bad rap by some in Christiandom who have abused and generally misunderstood it. Also, IMO, there is an erroneous teaching from those that think they have "arrived" and are already perfect, without having to participate in the process in anyway. IMO, these are those with faith but no works, the works here being defined as coming into agreement and participating with the SPIRIT of the Lord in the cleansing of the heart, and by extension, the flesh.

NO WAY could I have overcome myself at all, much less any of the things in my flesh, if the Spirit of the Lord had not had mercy on me and began to teach me about deliverance a mere 8 days after my initial conversion experience. I honestly don't know how ANYONE stands AT ALL, without it.

Also, IMO, part of the problem also lies in misunderstanding how the faith of the Lord works. Works without faith, describes those that have abused the deliverance process, taking it upon THEMSELVES, to "discern" what needs to be delivered from someone, AND when.

Faith is activated by listening to the Spirit of the Lord, and letting HIM minister thru us (including in a deliverance capacity), KNOWING that what He has spoken He will perform. But when you have most of Christiandom denying He even speaks, denying the "speaking" gifts, ect., there is very little room for Him to move in that little box they have put Him in. And they wonder why He doesn't "show up" at their meetings.

And since many do not understand that we are a "fractional" triune being, they also don't discern that some parts are written to our souls, some to our spirits. We ARE perfected in Spirit, which is why our spirit CAN return to the One who gave it. But our soul is another matter altogether and until both are equally yoked, this body is a grave and is not glorified. Which means we wear graveclothes, and not the wedding garment, ie. Christ. My Blessings....

« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 09:12:22 AM by Cardinal »

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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor