Immigration and immigrants

Then, on the other hand, you get people with left-wing political views who want "British jobs for British workers" and who see immigrants, especially those from the newer EU countries, as a particular threat to working-class employment and as a wage depressant.

Isn't that a right-wing attitude, not a left-wing one? I've found most left-wingers (actual left-wingers, not self-professed left-wingers who are actually very right wing) are very tolerant about immigration.

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Originally Posted by Lunatic

To all of you I say, stop generalizing, stop stereotyping, it's getting real old. IT IS ALSO AGAINST THE CODE OF CONDUCT ON THESE BOARDS, even if those in charge here particpate in it and turn a blind eye when others do so. Basically, it's wrong, even if it is very hard to avoid completely.

You've basically already said it: it's very hard to avoid completely.

Sometimes turning a bit of a blind eye is a good thing. It gives people the opportunity to discuss it. Correct people, remove their prejudices, show them their stereotypes are wrong.

Believe me, enforcing rules like this too strictly is a recipe for disaster. It can become impossible to discuss anything, and it will also make people resentful and more aggressive.

But that's totally OT.

I'm not sure if I have anything to say about immigration that hasn't been said already. My attitude can be summarised as "If you don't want immigration, you shouldn't be allowed to retire in -enter European country with balmy climate of your choice -".

Isn't that a right-wing attitude, not a left-wing one? I've found most left-wingers (actual left-wingers, not self-professed left-wingers who are actually very right wing) are very tolerant about immigration.

I think it depends. My point was, really, it's too easy to make generalisations about right- or left-wing attitudes, and that individuals, whatever their broad political leaning, have a vast spectrum of attitudes to immigration. I agree that for many liberals/socialists with an abstract, theoretical underpinning to their views, equal opportunities is built into their world view, so they are likely to be very tolerant about immigration.

I would describe myself as a liberal and I am very much in favour of multiculturalism and a liberal immigration policy.

But I also know that there are quite a few working-class Labour supporters who get frustrated with people like me (university-educated, middle-class liberals), because it's easy for us to be relaxed about immigration when it's, by and large, not our employment prospects that are under threat if the market becomes flooded by cheap unskilled labour. I disagree with their views (I think there are many factors affecting employment availability and immigrant labour is one of the smallest factors), but I do understand they have legitimate concerns and it's in many cases not a racist thing (I have come across many black and Asian British working-class people who feel that immigration should be tightened because they think there aren't enough jobs to go round and services like housing, health care and education are being put under strain by too many immigrants arriving at the same time).

Then there are those social liberals who are concerned about immigrants from more socially conservative cultures having an impact on e.g. women's rights and gay rights. I would emphasise that I disagree with them, but I recognise that for many of them it's a genuine concern - they are worried about hard-won rights being eroded and are not just clutching at that as an excuse with which to beat foreigners.

But I also know that there are quite a few working-class Labour supporters who get frustrated with people like me (university-educated, middle-class liberals), because it's easy for us to be relaxed about immigration when it's, by and large, not our employment prospects that are under threat if the market becomes flooded by cheap unskilled labour.

Strangely enough, the government has put a cap on skilled labour. Which completely baffles me. But that might be related to the fact that none of those in government can relate to the working classes in any way.

Strangely enough, the government has put a cap on skilled labour. Which completely baffles me.

Yes, I know - I mentioned that in the earlier post (and for anyone else reading this, just to clarify the context, we're talking specifically about the UK here). It does seem a bit barmy but the reason for it is, I believe, that there is already a total bar on unskilled immigrants (unless they're EU citizens, asylum seekers or married to/in a civil partnership with a UK or EU citizen - most of the unskilled immigrants coming into the UK are from the EU).

I suspect that even the government privately don't think that a cap on skilled labour is a good idea, but it's pretty much the only thing they can be seen to be doing about immigration without flouting EU law.

I don't think I am a racist, xenophobe, or suffer from an irrational fear of anyone, all generalized terms that have been used to describe people on my side of the argument, including by the 'fair and balanced' moderators on this boards.

To all of you I say, stop generalizing, stop stereotyping, it's getting real old. IT IS ALSO AGAINST THE CODE OF CONDUCT ON THESE BOARDS, even if those in charge here particpate in it and turn a blind eye when others do so. Basically, it's wrong, even if it is very hard to avoid completely.

I was talking about right wings extremists, not about anyone on this site. In most parts of the world they are considered racist and xenophobic, which doesn't necessarily mean their voters are too though. The Swedish Democrats that Midnightsfire brought up are a party with nazistic roots and until not that long ago they were wearing Nazi uniform while protesting against multiculturalism. Bearing that in mind I have low tolerance for right wing parties and I doubt that they are interested in facts and believe that all people are equally worth which is a democratic principle. I don't mind discussing the negative effects of immigration if it is a serious discussion. But when I feel as though the parties involved are driven by xenophobia then I don't think anyting positive can come out of it. I'm refering of course to political discussions regarding immigration and not anything said on this site so don't feel targeted.

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Agreed, in theory and ideally. But if 'they' (whomever 'they' are) do not respect me and would, if given the opportunity, eradicate my cultural identity, don't I have the right to be nervous?

Would they? I'm questioning the premise of your arguments here because I'm not sure where you get these facts. It seems to me that you generalize a lot based on a few incidents. I think Muslim fundamentalism and terrorism is dangerous and should be fought against with great seriousness and strength. But I have a hard time believing that 80% of the people who live in Islamic countries or emigrate from them are more intolerant that Westerners are or are out to get us and impose their values on us. It doesn't seem believable that a culture should be more "malicious" than another, IMO.

Isn't that a right-wing attitude, not a left-wing one? I've found most left-wingers (actual left-wingers, not self-professed left-wingers who are actually very right wing) are very tolerant about immigration.

Since 'right-wing' is primarily about economics not really. Plenty of "far right" parties support nutty keynesian style plans for the economy as opposed to the free-market supported by most western conservative parties.

But I digress. I think that I am mostly in favour of relatively relaxed migration laws. Partly because Britain needs its competitiveness and, simply by its nature as a Commonwealth and EU trading hub must allow for free flow of money and labour. I also live in London and I love that almost every culture on earth is represented there in some form.

But then again, I am a young professional in a field unlikely to have boatloads of new competitors entering. I have never lost my job and struggled to find a new one. I have never had to listen to people tell me that the jobs taken by migrants are things that "I will not do" or am too lazy to do. This argument I have always found odd anyway. Especially when used by people who are supposedly 'Liberals'. How bizarre that Britain's working class, those valiant underdogs suddenly become their slovenly Daily Mail stereotype when it comes to immigration.

Do you believe immigrants have made living easier or more difficult in your country? Why?

In Europe it failed. The last immigration wave I mean. Mass immigration of lower class, culturally and religious different economical immigrants should not be done. It takes generations of people to integrate, (even that's uncertain). Disproportional groups of Moroccans cause trouble with society and the natives are tired of that. They should be willing to adapt when they move here or stay home.

Are you/is anyone in your family an immigrant? Can you tell your side of the story?

Nope, all natives.

Do you want to leave your country (permanently-for a while)? What are your reasons for it?

I have lived abroad for a year and I can honestly say no place is better as the next. If you're unhappy you will always find something to pick on. It's basically projection of your own unhappyness. Whether it be immigrants, housing problems or whatever.

Is there any particular issue regarding immigration that you'd like to share or discuss? Please feel free.

I hope economical immigrants do not only immigrate for money benefit. But do it to be part of society and Europe. The latter is where the problem lies. They want work but they have unrealistic expectations, there are no jobs for millions of immigrants from North Africa who cannot read and write and do not speak the native language. They have unreastic expectations and need to realise that. Wake up people, make something of your life at home!

Yes, it's so easy to make "something of your life at home" when you live in a country where the government is a brutal dictatorship and any attempt to change the status quo is met by imprisonment, torture and death.

(I'll not go into the grossly racist assumption that African immigrants can't "cannot read and write".)

__________________
A patriot is someone who wants the best for his country, including the best laws and the best ideals. It's something other people should call you -- you shouldn't call yourself that. People who call themselves patriots are usually liars. -- Donald Woods

You got what anybody gets . . . You got a lifetime. -- Death of the Endless

Yes, it's so easy to make "something of your life at home" when you live in a country where the government is a brutal dictatorship and any attempt to change the status quo is met by imprisonment, torture and death.

(I'll not go into the grossly racist assumption that African immigrants can't "cannot read and write".)

Oh yeah, the race card. I was waiting for that....

I am generalising you have to see that. But most immigrants that go to Europe are not doctors or lawyers and alot of them have no intention or lack the ability of being part of society. They're not all victims, there are parasites among them and why can't I say that out loud without someone putting the race card out. So cheap. Not every person had good intentions coming here. Some do. But not all.

It's understandable they want a better life, but we cannot help them all. We lack the capacity to give them all jobs. We do not have any obligation to them either. Why? Because they're sad? That attitude is naive and old politically correct politics.

What makes me angry is when they claim this and that and use their immigrant position to get things done. That's the wrong attitude. Not equal and creates abuse of the system. And there's the discrimination of homosexuals which has never been on a rebound here and now it happens mainly because of them. And look in the prisons here. Same story.

Too many do not have the right attitude to move into Europe. They are not ready. We need to take on the Australian attitude: what can these people do for us instead of what can we do for them....We need to be more realpolitik about it, and less idealistic. But Europe is not that far yet. We live in a suffocating pc-society that doens't have the guts to face the facts.

And some of the rare people that do are either killed or under constant surveillance (Theo van Gogh the film director and that Danish cartoonist) because of threats coming from that area. And if you do not get my point, walk around in Brussels or The Hague for a day, if that's the future for Europe, well, I will say no more .

I am generalising you have to see that. But most immigrants that go to Europe are not doctors or lawyers

You'd be surprised. The problem is that the legal and medical guilds in most countries refuse the recognise foreign qualifications.

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and alot of them have no intention or lack the ability of being part of society. They're not all victims, there are parasites among them and why can't I say that out loud without someone putting the race card out. So cheap. Not every person had good intentions coming here. Some do. But not all.

It was a blatantly racist statement, like most generalisations are.

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We do not have any obligation to them either. Why?

If we are talking about asylum seekers and refugees (as you seem to be, no worries about western immigrants) all European nations have ratified both the 1951 UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and the 1967 Special Protocol.

Otherwise, its up to individual government to manage their intake of non-humanitarian migrants.

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We need to take on the Australian attitude: what can these people do for us instead of what can we do for them.

The Australian attitude is such that about a quarter of the population is foreign born or has at least one foreign born parent.

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We live in a suffocating pc-society that doens't have the guts to face the facts.

The facts being?

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And if you do not get my point, walk around in Brussels or The Hague for a day, if that's the future for Europe, well, I will say no more .

I have. And wasn't bothered at all.

Actually I'm always amused by Europeans who whine about immigrants. I consider it karmic realignment for the days when their forebears imperialist antics.

__________________
A patriot is someone who wants the best for his country, including the best laws and the best ideals. It's something other people should call you -- you shouldn't call yourself that. People who call themselves patriots are usually liars. -- Donald Woods

You got what anybody gets . . . You got a lifetime. -- Death of the Endless

I am generalising you have to see that. But most immigrants that go to Europe are not doctors or lawyers and alot of them have no intention or lack the ability of being part of society. They're not all victims, there are parasites among them and why can't I say that out loud without someone putting the race card out. So cheap. Not every person had good intentions coming here. Some do. But not all.

It's understandable they want a better life, but we cannot help them all. We lack the capacity to give them all jobs. We do not have any obligation to them either. Why? Because they're sad? That attitude is naive and old politically correct politics.

What makes me angry is when they claim this and that and use their immigrant position to get things done. That's the wrong attitude. Not equal and creates abuse of the system. And there's the discrimination of homosexuals which has never been on a rebound here and now it happens mainly because of them. And look in the prisons here. Same story.

Too many do not have the right attitude to move into Europe. They are not ready. We need to take on the Australian attitude: what can these people do for us instead of what can we do for them....We need to be more realpolitik about it, and less idealistic. But Europe is not that far yet. We live in a suffocating pc-society that doens't have the guts to face the facts.

And some of the rare people that do are either killed or under constant surveillance (Theo van Gogh the film director and that Danish cartoonist) because of threats coming from that area. And if you do not get my point, walk around in Brussels or The Hague for a day, if that's the future for Europe, well, I will say no more .

hmm...

Not easy to agree with but...I understand how uncomfortable it is to try to mention the problem/s without appearing "nationalistic." A person wants to think of his/her country's people first.
The non-pc thing to say is that immigrants can be a problem when they refuse to conform to the country and the societal "mores" to go with it when they willingly entered into said country, and even more so when they expect that a country's people to "carry them" rather than the immigrant to make a positive contribution to their "adoptive" country.

Is that what you're trying not to say?

__________________

All fighters are pig-headed some way or another: some part of them always thinks they know better than you about something. Truth is: even if they're wrong, even if that one thing is going to be the ruin of them, if you can beat that last bad out of them... they ain't fighters at all.