The Golden thread is who gets to raise the Trophy on Sunday. Is this shown by the Opening match, or by a chart cast for the Final or by a Horary? These are things that should be discussed. What are all the other games in between about? Is there a Golden path? It would be good if someone contributed with regular Game End charts so that the matter could be studied in a structured manner. Unfortunately, it is rather a lot of work. We have to organise our team better on a future occasion and share the tasks more around.

In the chart for the Final, Jupiter as dispositor of both the Moon and the Moon's North Node, in conjunction with the Moon's South Node, seemed to be a good token for the trophy returning to where it came from. Sagittarius is associated with Spain, and Jupiter is in a masculine sign and can show some preference in the same direction.

Only a brave, or foolish, soul would seek to discipline a bunch of astrologers.

I see your logic about the South Node/Jupiter. Could we suggest as Germany have won it three times and the Spanish twice it is more at 'home' with them?

The idea of country's being linked to signs comes from where? I am assuming you aren't basing this on the latest national chart for each and it is an earlier system?

Well casting the chart for 11.30pm gives 4 Pisces rising. Neptune and Chiron straddling the ascendent. So some loose symbolism which may hint at the person who switches the TV on in the 80th minute seeing a game whose result is a bit cloudy and painful. Maybe a clear penalty being disallowed, attempts rebounding of the woodwork, or unfair sending off, etc. Or even a game drifting into extra time and penalties, or is it the golden goal solution again.

Really, if you think about it, trying to predict the result of a football tournament is somewhat similar to trying to figure out a jigsaw puzzle. In the beginning we try to identify the different pieces, sort them out and put them into different catetories. We pick them up, talk about them and then put them down again. The puzzle is messy from the start until things fall into a certain pattern, or a structure. It has to do with identifying the various components. People can participate at this level, or at any other level as they wish, without having to see or understand the jigsaw puzzle through to the end.

Individual matches is about like comparing two and two balls at a time to try and figure out which ball will come out best in terms of specific size/weight. You are only allowed to hold one ball at a time. At the same time you might be required to form an opinion regarding a future contest based upon similar measurements of an entirely different batch of balls. There can be no true comparison before the balls from different batches are set up against one another.

But regarding the puzzle; one of the Big Questions may be whether it is all the other pieces that decide the Final Piece that ‘crowns’ the puzzle, or whether it is all the other pieces that fall into place around a piece of Cardinal importance. I couldn’t tell. People work at the puzzle from different ends. Talking about the puzzle, how different pieces compare and in which order they belong – that is what we do.

There is something to do with football prediction, and astrology for that case, that is of an arithmetic order, but in the same sense if feels as if we are trying to develop a language. Do we suffiently understand a configuration or constellation so that we may describe it in words, and do these words work in terms of describing an object so that it may be placed into a system of a certain order?

Johannes, I still think your observation on the sextile between the Part of Fortune and Saturn in the Spain - Portugal chart was the most important aspect.

In response I wrote:

Now I am wondering whether Saturn is aspect to POF is beneficial to the favourite. It is a sextile (is that significant?), and then cast through signs of long ascension that sometimes learn things the hard way. But then Saturn is Lord of the ascendant, so I guess you are right.

Saturn sometimes put a lid on things, as we sometimes see it freeze matters down and the match ends in a draw. Spain had no easy match against Portugal, as the result was 0-0 after both full and extra time. The match was not decided before penalties and the final kick that set the result to 4-2 advantage Spain. Ronaldo did not get to take the final penalty as the winner was already decided._________________http://www.astronor.com

Saturn is also stationary direct; he has and had been at a standstill for a number of days. Perhaps this explains Spain's sluggish performance last night, much unlike their normal brilliance? They benefitted from the POF aspect (and a rather nebulous aspect at that: a sextile to antiscia!)...but only just.

Ronaldo not taking the first or second penalty kick was either poor coaching or gigantic ego...or both.

The Germany-Italy game will (hopefully) prove more interesting, or at least less frustrating!

Italy are 2 ahead after the first 45. I didn't really think I could judge the chart, since my position was already taken. Don't like the look of Pluto in the first house destroyed by the opposition of the Sun. Is the underdog really going to topple the scales? It doesn't look too good at the moment. _________________http://www.astronor.com

I must admit you lost me with the Jigsaw. When I looked into Sports betting with Horoscopes I found the why as hard to understand as the how. It seemed a little trivial for the 'cosmos' to be bothered about. Not for you if you got a few million on the outcome of course!

Bad luck tonight. At least it was a more entertaining game. The ending was not quite as hazy as the end of the game chart may have suggested.

I had forgotten the Italians always beat the Germans. If they were underdogs it ought to have been a close call after the English game and in the light of the history between them.

Italy in the Final and potentially winning the tournament? I wasn't looking for that!! Isaac, would you have put money on Italy at the beginning of the tournament? The odds of Italy winning were at Unibet quoted at 15:1, at Betfair the price was about 20:1. There was the Lunar eclipse on the Meridian of Italy, the Astro*Cartography chart provided on page 1 of this thread, but I thought that would prove more a hazard. Now it is beginning to look spooky!! My gut feeling was that Spain could have difficulties with Germany in the Final, and in one sense I am more comfortable with Italy as their opponent. But then there is still one more deciding match to be played.

I can't see Italy anywhere in the Opening, Final or 'Horary' chart. Now the details and teams for the final are decided and down to fixture level. Thursday's chart, Germany-Italy, did have the toppling elements. Nixx, since you are new to the group, we have seen some serious underdogs and upsets pop up under the Sun's hard aspect to the outer planets Uranus and Pluto. In addition the Sun does destroy or reduce the virtue of a planet within 2° of his opposition. But then we are back to examining indiviual matches, the charts that pave the way to the final and making all the pieces fit up to that final game. Maybe there is both an overall or underlying plan or undercurrent AND small specifics that may interfere on the way.

Nixx's advice on gathering some security on the Italians was sound judgement, although I am not sure whether it came from having a father as a bookmaker or whether there was something else behind? Nixx, I feel that you have both knowledge or the astrological, but that you contribution here is also to remind us about the realities. Would that be about right? _________________http://www.astronor.com

Bad performance of the German team.
What I wrote on June 3rd - see above:

"The probable end of the final, Berlin - well, might be some minutes later. This doesn't look bad for the German team (well, provided, of course, they should indeed be in the final ...) - but the chart for Rome, Italy is not so very different, with Berlin and Rome having about the same meridian (difference of about 1 degree). Does not look so very convincing for Spain and (sorry) England."

"...provided, of course, they should indeed be in the final ..."

So most probably Italy will be the winner. (I hope so, by the way. Spain was boring - that terrible tic,tic - tac, tac - tic, tic - tac, tac ... rather uninspired, wasn't it ?)

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