Re: [Priest] Talent & Glyph Discussion

I will probably go for this spec as holy in 3.1 and I doubt I will change it back because I cannot see any holy spec as flexible as this and only at the cost of a tiny bit of healing. 4% in total in talents. (I don't count Blessed resilience 3% healing because I don't think of it as pve at all and I don't think blizz ever intended to make it one)

I don't think holy priests should pick inspiration more than 1 point as a filler to progress the tree because this bonus armor is not going to be what saves your raid and unless you are the only priest healer in the raid and you don't have a shaman, ofc I didn't check if the armor bonuses from the shaman talent and priest talent stack but I still wouldn't favor this talent as raid healer even if they do stack. (as I imagine it I think many raids (25 man) will use at least 1 disc priest for 3% less dmg to the raid and they should have inspiration 3/3 and constantly keep it on the tank. you might say it could come in handy in 10 mans but my guess is that after ppl gear a little bit more up that the tank can do a good job on 10 man bosses without that armor)

I also don't think inner focus will cost me a lot of mana by not choosing it because I only ever use it before prayer but depending on how my mana regen will be in 3.1 I might consider taking a point out of Test of Faith take Inner focus.

The only real problem is choosing glyphs because there are few others really good also. and I really want to have glyph of Guardian spirit and glyph of flash heal because I tend to use flash a bit when I have time but still think this will give my guild the best healing in our future runs if all the spells stay as they are now.

Re: [Priest] Talent & Glyph Discussion

Question~

I see a couple builds without Inner Focus, why is that?

I understand they've changed how we work with oofsr now, but with how they changed mana regeneration and how it is more complicated now, or whatever, wouldn't a technically "free" heal be a good thing? ???

Re: [Priest] Talent & Glyph Discussion

Originally Posted by Puddinsnack

Question~

I see a couple builds without Inner Focus, why is that?

I understand they've changed how we work with oofsr now, but with how they changed mana regeneration and how it is more complicated now, or whatever, wouldn't a technically "free" heal be a good thing? ???

Just wondering is all

Inner Focus will not provide as much oofsr benefit as it does now. It's worth will be cut by the same amount the oofsr mana regen from spirit.

Let's just say if you would assign numbers to certain talent points, Inner Focus would have a very low number after 3.1 and other talents will give more benefit for the same talent point.

Re: [Priest] Talent & Glyph Discussion

However, once I've experienced Ulduar on live, and if the mana regeneration allows it, I'll be moving two points from Improved Spirit Tap down to Improved Vampiric Embrace, since I'm very good friends with this talent.

That however, is a personal tweak, and not really something that buff the raid efficiency, nor breaks it.

(Also if people could use the URL bbcodes to avoid scrollbars, it would be nice :-])

Re: [Priest] Talent & Glyph Discussion

Originally Posted by Danner

I'm disagreeing on this one, to be honest.

Empowered healing is strong, that I agree on. Assuming 2.1k spellpower, it increase GHeal by ~1000 and fheal by ~500.
But at the same time, Both FHeal and GHeal are "strong enough" even without these additions.
My 4.5k fheal is not as strong as your 5k fheal. But both heals will unconditionally save a life when cast.
My 8k gheal is not as strong as your 9k gheal.

You're looking at this the wrong way...

While you outline the HPS benefits from the talent you are completely ignoring the long term HPM gains of the talent. For example, you would have to cast GHeal 10 times to heal 80K damage, while the other person can heal for 81K with only 9 casts. Lets just ignore the extra 1K healing and assume they are the same... each cast of Gheal is about 1250 (forget the exact number with talents as im shadow atm), so this person has saved themselves 1250 mana in 9 * their Gheal cast time... lets assume 2.2sec which is about what you'd have with a moderate amount of haste... 9 * 2.2 sec = 19.8 sec... lets round it to 20 for ease... 1250 mana over 20 sec = 312mp/5

It is actually quite a bit more complex than this, because there is obviously overhealing to factor in etc... but what this does illustrate is if you are stretched for HPS where a vast majority of your gheals will be effective (ie more difficult content) Empowered healing is goign to offer more HPS & mp/5 than mental agility. There is no way you can convince me mental agility is going to provide more mana than empowered healing for the example you described.

If you want to talk about primarily using CoH, Renew and PoM... then you might have a case but you are somewhat lessening your flexiblity which is one of the great strengths of a holy priest.

Re: [Priest] Talent & Glyph Discussion

Originally Posted by Worshaka

You're looking at this the wrong way...

While you outline the HPS benefits from the talent you are completely ignoring the long term HPM gains of the talent. For example, you would have to cast GHeal 10 times to heal 80K damage, while the other person can heal for 81K with only 9 casts. Lets just ignore the extra 1K healing and assume they are the same... each cast of Gheal is about 1250 (forget the exact number with talents as im shadow atm), so this person has saved themselves 1250 mana in 9 * their Gheal cast time... lets assume 2.2sec which is about what you'd have with a moderate amount of haste... 9 * 2.2 sec = 19.8 sec... lets round it to 20 for ease... 1250 mana over 20 sec = 312mp/5

It is actually quite a bit more complex than this, because there is obviously overhealing to factor in etc... but what this does illustrate is if you are stretched for HPS where a vast majority of your gheals will be effective (ie more difficult content) Empowered healing is goign to offer more HPS & mp/5 than mental agility. There is no way you can convince me mental agility is going to provide more mana than empowered healing for the example you described.

If you want to talk about primarily using CoH, Renew and PoM... then you might have a case but you are somewhat lessening your flexiblity which is one of the great strengths of a holy priest.

What the rest of us are saying is that in hard content you will usually have more than one person healing a designated tank, and with more than one person, heals of such magnitude will almost always be overheal. Thus any benefit you gain from empowered healing, which adds healing to already extremely large heals, will almost always be overheal, negating the benefit.

Re: [Priest] Talent & Glyph Discussion

Originally Posted by Mica

What the rest of us are saying is that in hard content you will usually have more than one person healing a designated tank, and with more than one person, heals of such magnitude will almost always be overheal. Thus any benefit you gain from empowered healing, which adds healing to already extremely large heals, will almost always be overheal, negating the benefit.

Thus far the trend has been to go skinny on healers and stack dps... 3 drake sarth which is generally acknowledged as the most difficult content avialable is a prime example. As such you find quite a high effective heal rate because there isn't an abundance of healers.

In addition if you are stacking healers to the point of causing massive amounts of OH you are not utilising your healers or stacking your raid effectively. You might be getting away with it atm but blizzard have stated they are tuning things to punish that type of ineffeciency. It remains to be seen it if will be punished but in theory your raid won't be able to do uludar unless it does make those types of changes.

Lastly the extra strength of healing can result in procing the mana gain on serendipty... you will find that a larger proportion of heals that have empowered healing will OH and thus you get more mana back from serendipity this way.

Its probably too difficult to try to post numbers that take into account all those variables in a way that can't be picked apart... but the fact remains that empowered healing does have a mp/5 value associated with it and it would be on par if not greater than that of mental agility.

Re: [Priest] Talent & Glyph Discussion

Originally Posted by Worshaka

Its probably too difficult to try to post numbers that take into account all those variables in a way that can't be picked apart... but the fact remains that empowered healing does have a mp/5 value associated with it and it would be on par if not greater than that of mental agility.

I understand the point you are making, overhealing right now does have some kind of mp5. but this is a 3.1 talent build discussion and in 3.1 serendipity doesnt provide mana anymore. thus overheals will be wasted.

Re: [Priest] Talent & Glyph Discussion

True... but the point about having too many healers healing 1 target to cause large amounts of OH is still valid... you could perhaps do the same job with 1 healer allowing you to bring 1 more dps. And as I pointed out, the trend for 3 drake sarth is to use 5 or 6 healers and if you look at stats on those fights very little of a priests healing is wasted as OH.

Re: [Priest] Talent & Glyph Discussion

Originally Posted by Worshaka

True... but the point about having too many healers healing 1 target to cause large amounts of OH is still valid... you could perhaps do the same job with 1 healer allowing you to bring 1 more dps. And as I pointed out, the trend for 3 drake sarth is to use 5 or 6 healers and if you look at stats on those fights very little of a priests healing is wasted as OH.

There's a lot more to the discussion when it comes to Empowered Healing than simply spamming on the tank. Empowered Healing also effects Flash Heal which is important because it will still be a filler regardless of whether you're MT or raid healing. In this case, it's very likely that the bonus healing will be used considerably more.

But moreover, compare it to some similar talents like Blessed Resilience and Test of Faith. 3 points in EH is 24% of your SP which works out to more of a bonus to Greater Heal and Flash Heal than the flat 3% Healing that Blessed Resilience offers. Compared to Test of Faith, it's not as much of a bonus, but it applies 100% of the time. The downside is that it only applies to GH and FH, but when you're MT healing, most of your healing is going to be coming from GH or FH rather than Renew or PoM, so it's a better use of points. If you're raid Healing, you'll be getting in CoH and PoM, but you'll also get more benefit from FH since it will be a filling between those CDs, so it's still probably more of a bonus.

IMO, if you're not 5/5 EH but you are grabbing points in either ToF or BR, you're probably losing out in potential healing and mana efficiency.

Silent Resolve is ALWAYS worth it in pvp. Also I would never go without imp. inner fire, I'd rather remove 1 point in martyrdom and the 2 in fortitude to get silent resolve. 4% Stamina amounts to what? ~800 Health with 20k HP pool. I'd rather have more mitigation on every hit I take than that. Both would be best of course but there aren't enough points for that.

Also, not skilling MB cooldown is a no-go. It seems that this is intended to be a BG-only spec? Because otherwise you would have to skill manaburn. And in a BG I could see not taking Silent Resolve because who dispells in BGs anyway.

Also: Why Pain & Suffering? 3 points for 30% less damage taken from a 12s CD spell is rather lackluster. There are way better talents out there than this for pvp.

You know what is better than drinking a beer? Brewing your own beer. And then drinking it. And then... Drinking another beer. And then, punching somebody in the snout! That's what!

divine fury is even more useless for discipline, spell warding might be a nice filler but i prefered healing focus and improved renew here.

I absolutely agree with your points in the Discipline Tree. I really don't think there's any way to improve upon that.

I can't agree with picking up Healing Focus and Improved Renew over Divine Fury. I will say that all of them are sub-par talents, but I think Divine Fury is potentially more useful. Healing Focus is still mostly replaced by Concentration Aura, and paying 2 points for 15% pushback reduction just doesn't seem worth it. If you don't have a Holy Paladin in the raid, though, that may still be useful. Even with Improved Renew, I can't see Renew being useful by Discipline because the new Improved Flash Heal makes it almost always superior by being better HPM; plus, Renew cannot crit without Empowered Renew, while Flash Heal can, so you have to also factor in Divine Aegis procs. Meanwhile, Greater Heal still looks like it will be higher HPS than Flash Heal with Divine Fury, so while it may kill your mana, having the option to burn some mana for more HPS is valuable. Moreso, assuming the PWS->Penance->GH combo isn't broken, it will still be useful for that as well.

So, while I agree that Divine Fury has lost some ground with the addition of Empowered Flash Heal and the change to Rapture, I don't think it's lost enough ground to justify grabbing those other two talents over it.