If the juicy draft pick is top ten in 2012 then I'd be fine with that but I think we're being unfair to the guy when we're saying the guy absolutely must be an all-star to keep him over Amir or Ed. Amir and Ed won't be close to all-star level anytime soon. Bargnani gets the points and if he brings the rebounds this season and moving forward he could very well make an all-star game. Not sure how likely that is but he passed the first test. He has a whole lot more of them.

No, I'm saying that if he didn't take those shots the 76ers wouldn't have had the successes they had. If you take Iverson out of that Philadelphia team, and you give his possessions to the other teammates I highly doubt they would have competed for anything. In hindsight he did make those shots, he did bring the 76ers very far and won many games. And nowhere did I say anything was "impossible", you're just bringing up hypothetical situations/questions which neither of us can answer with any hint of realism nor credibility, especially considering we already know the successul outcome of Iversons contribution to the 76ers that year.

And I love how you not only initiated another discussion on something which had nothing to do with the initial discussion for obvious reasons, but then proceeded to ignore everything I've rebutted.

Joe I'm not exactly sure what you expect. An advanced stat is a bunch of data put into a model and has a value thrown out. That model is tested, reviewed, challenged and critiqued. The reason you are giving me that it 'doesn't work' is because your opinion won't allow you to believe that Allen Iverson wasn't the best player on the 76ers.... I am not trying to change that opinion... I'm trying to roughly explain why Iverson got the ranking he did.

Iverson's greatest basketball ability is scoring. Which is one of the most common 'talent's in the NBA. He did it with quantity over quality.... but every shot he took is a shot some else could have taken aswell. Statistically speaking, if someone else (or combination of others) took the shots Iverson did the team had a better chance of scoring as his FG% was very low. Thats why his WP number is low. You can tell me he was a better scorer than his teammates but he still shot 42%on 25.5 sots. You can tell me he was quick and talented and hit amazing shots, but he still shot 42% on 25.5 shots. You can tell me he scored 30 pts a game, won an mvp and made it to the finals, but he still shot 42% of 25.5 shots.

It's extremely hypothetical as you have asked us to erase the last 5 years. I cannot do that unfortunately. In the last 5 years, I have seen Bargnani play with a lot of effort on both sides, but it fades quickly. I have never enjoyed watching him shoot inefficiently especially when he takes a lot of jump shots. Those provide instant rebounds for the opposing team, which allows them to either go on a fast break or setup a play on the offensive end. The deer caught in a headlight routine is laughable.

The past 5 years have haunted me so much unfortunately. No matter how good he plays in the next 20-30 games, I will not want him on my team. Even if he makes it to the all-star game this year, I wouldn't want him here next year. David Lee was an all-star. I wouldn't want him on my team either.

The question was based on one game of effort and starts with an 'IF'. The intent is not to make the question anything more than it is stated as.

I have not forgotten the last 5 years and one solid game of effort does not change anything in the big picture.

It was also the first preseason game of the year and if we want to get critical, there were a number of other players who made a number of bonehead plays on offense too.

The question was based on one game of effort and starts with an 'IF'. The intent is not to make the question anything more than it is stated as.

I have not forgotten the last 5 years and one solid game of effort does not change anything in the big picture.

It was also the first preseason game of the year and if we want to get critical, there were a number of other players who made a number of bonehead plays on offense too.

Perhaps I didn't quite understand what you asked in your question. If Bargnani played the exact same way in every game for the rest of the season would I want him on the team? My answer would be no I would not. He played poorly offensively in that one game, and shooting 4/14 for the rest of the season hurts the team more than it helps the team. He also had defensive lapses like he used to have last year. I think he would struggle more with a younger team who played all their starters consistently.

Now if you are simply asking if he showed the same effort like he did in the one game, would I want him? My answer to that would still be no. For me it's not simply about effort. That does play a big factor, but mixing effort with bad IQ still means bad IQ. He may not be as bad a liability which is great, but he is still getting paid a ton of money and is taking development time away from both Davis and Amir.

If you throw the assumption in there that Casey will improve Bargnani's IQ, I would counter that with I would have to see it to believe it. That is too big of an assumption for me.

Brook Lopez scored 15pts and had 11rbs in his first preseason game. Dwight Howard on the other hand had 5pts and 6rbs in his first game. I think if NJ is planning to trade Lopez for Howard it would be a horrible lop sided trade in NJ's favour. We off course have to take the previous years out of the equation since that only makes sense.

Thats the thing with Bargs. Even if he manages to hit 20/10 every night, he could just be the same as pre-Griz Zach Randolph. The numbers are there but it doesn't mean anything and the team is a loser. He really does have to shock and awe, otherwise I want to get more draft picks for 2012.

Brook Lopez scored 15pts and had 11rbs in his first preseason game. Dwight Howard on the other hand had 5pts and 6rbs in his first game. I think if NJ is planning to trade Lopez for Howard it would be a horrible lop sided trade in NJ's favour. We off course have to take the previous years out of the equation since that only makes sense.

I don't think anybody said that previous years count for nothing, it's just pointing out the fact that a Bargnani who plays with the effort and intensity that he did yesterday (with better offensive efficiency than yesterday), would essentially be a completely different player than the Bargnani from the past 5 years.

Obviously it's a huge "IF", but yesterday's game showed that the potential is there and that Bargnani is capable of 'bringing it' at both ends of the court... the real question is whether or not Casey can keep Bargnani motivated and passionate enough to bring it consistently every game for an entire season. IF he can, then his play would essentially make the last 5 years meaningless, in terms of evaluating his contribution and value to the Raptors, going forward.

IF Bargnani can consistently be a 20+/10 type player, with the hustle and passion he played with yesterday, then his $10-12M per season would seem like a bargain. Also, if you were to trade that new and improved 20+/10 Bargnani for a top-10 draft pick, there's no guarantee that the draft pick would be a 20+/10 player either. Nothing is ever for sure; yes you have to remember the past, but players are capable to having everything finally just 'click'...

I don't think anybody said that previous years count for nothing, it's just pointing out the fact that a Bargnani who plays with the effort and intensity that he did yesterday (with better offensive efficiency than yesterday), would essentially be a completely different player than the Bargnani from the past 5 years.

Obviously it's a huge "IF", but yesterday's game showed that the potential is there and that Bargnani is capable of 'bringing it' at both ends of the court... the real question is whether or not Casey can keep Bargnani motivated and passionate enough to bring it consistently every game for an entire season. IF he can, then his play would essentially make the last 5 years meaningless, in terms of evaluating his contribution and value to the Raptors, going forward.

IF Bargnani can consistently be a 20+/10 type player, with the hustle and passion he played with yesterday, then his $10-12M per season would seem like a bargain. Also, if you were to trade that new and improved 20+/10 Bargnani for a top-10 draft pick, there's no guarantee that the draft pick would be a 20+/10 player either. Nothing is ever for sure; yes you have to remember the past, but players are capable to having everything finally just 'click'...

It is a very big IF.. and the thing is we have seen that potential before. He has had some really good games. Having effort and intensity for 66 games in a shortened season without much practice is not going to be easy. And increasing his rebounds is just one issue.. he needs to really become a defensive force since he plays a position that requires it. Otherwise he'll just end up like another Al Jefferson.

But to be honest, I've stopped imagining a life where Bargnani actually gets it. I want the Raptors to win a championship, not just make into the playoffs. I don't see Bargnani as championship material.

You indicated in your last paragraph that players are capable of having everything finally click. Can you please site an example of say 3 or 5 guys where they finally 'clicked' after playing a significant amount of time in the NBA. This notion that Bargnani will finally click seems like an exception. I'd rather gamble on a top-10 draft pick personally. The odds will be in my favour.

IF Bargnani can play with the effort and intensity he did yesterday, for the rest of his career, while also improving his offensive efficiency, I honestly don't know how/why any fan would NOT want that Bargnani on the Raptors. That type of Bargnani would be a consistent 20+/10 player making only $10-12M per season - which in that case would seem like a huge bargain. Even if you could trade him for a top-10 draft pick, there's no guarantee that the pick would become a consistent 20+/10 type talent.

The thing about Bargnani's game, yesterday, is that people seem to be so focused on the fact that he worked harder, that they didn't seem to notice that his defense still wasn't adequate. It was better, yes, but it still wasn't good enough.

And to answer your question, a 20+/10 player making $10-12 million a season may be a relative bargain, but if that player still plays below average defense, then who cares whether he's a relative bargain.

WHat we saw from Bargnani was encouraging, but that's it. He's still got a long way to go.

It is a very big IF.. and the thing is we have seen that potential before. He has had some really good games. Having effort and intensity for 66 games in a shortened season without much practice is not going to be easy. And increasing his rebounds is just one issue.. he needs to really become a defensive force since he plays a position that requires it. Otherwise he'll just end up like another Al Jefferson.

But to be honest, I've stopped imagining a life where Bargnani actually gets it. I want the Raptors to win a championship, not just make into the playoffs. I don't see Bargnani as championship material.

You indicated in your last paragraph that players are capable of having everything finally click. Can you please site an example of say 3 or 5 guys where they finally 'clicked' after playing a significant amount of time in the NBA. This notion that Bargnani will finally click seems like an exception. I'd rather gamble on a top-10 draft pick personally. The odds will be in my favour.

There's all kinds of players who started off either as nothing fancy or a one-trick pony, who realized they needed to be more than one dimensional or completely changed their game to become the player they will be remembered for.

Chauncey Billups comes to mind, as a player that two teams passed along (including the Raps) as nothing more than a backup PG, who took a couple more seasons at Detroit, before becoming an all-world PG who is considered one of the best floor-generals of the past decade.

Heck, even MJ came into the league as a flashy dunker initially, who took years (and playoff losses to Bird's Celtics and Isaih's Pistons) to realize that he needed to be more to win a championship... he worked his ass off to become a good outside shooter, a good post-up player and to make the league's all-defense team.

Bargnani is a scorer with potential to be a good defender and good rebounder, he just needs to stay committed and play with effort and passion. Yes it is certainly a huge "IF", that is agreed upon by even his biggest supporter... but that "IF" was the basis for this thread.

It will be very interesting to see what happens during or after a game where Bargnani has only a couple of rebounds and rebounds attempted. How will Casey react and what will be Bargnani's reaction in the game after.

I voted no because it won't last. How do I know? If we saw a glimpse like this in his 2nd year, then maybe. But I've seen 5 years of the OTHER guy.

This poll is like asking if I wanted to keep the hare if he ran fast all the time instead of taking a break and allowing the turtle to win the race. The answer is obviously yes, but the reality is that it's not gonna happen.

It will be very interesting to see what happens during or after a game where Bargnani has only a couple of rebounds and rebounds attempted. How will Casey react and what will be Bargnani's reaction in the game after.

Absolutely. If he doesn't hold Bargnani accountable then he has lost all credibility with the rest of his players and the fans.

Chauncey Billups comes to mind, as a player that two teams passed along (including the Raps) as nothing more than a backup PG, who took a couple more seasons at Detroit, before becoming an all-world PG who is considered one of the best floor-generals of the past decade.

Billups is the one that torments me, because he's the perfect example of a guy everyone wrote off who became a world class player, and because he did I hold out hope way too way long on a lot of flops.

Billups is the one that torments me, because he's the perfect example of a guy everyone wrote off who became a world class player, and because he did I hold out hope way too way long on a lot of flops.

The question is, would Billups have turned into the player he did, had he stayed with the Raptors? My guess would be no.

I think it's the combination of Larry Brown, the Wallace twins, Hamilton and Prince that turned Billups into a great player.