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Re: The Ravens approached the offense the wrong way.

I don't think Flacco is as good or as bad as advertised. I see comparison's to Eli Manning and that isn't the case.

I think the situation here is a lot like the Denver Broncos. Not that Flacco is in Elway stature, but under Dan Reeves, Elway was winning, made Super Bowls, but never won anything. When Mike Shannahan came in, they junked everything and started running a West Coast offense with a very good running back in Terrell Davis, which we have in Rice.

Now we'd have to sack up and dump the offensive coordinator and/or the head coach that allows this miserable offense to continue, but I see that as the only way to fix Baltimore's offensive woes. Someone with fresh ideas and an offensive identity and attack that was developed AFTER I was born.

Re: The Ravens approached the offense the wrong way.

Originally Posted by RavensNTerps

Bullshit. They tried to cut him loose with this hurry up no huddle and he proved incapable. We tried to run the offense at Patriot-speed (Flacco's own words) and he failed. Because he can't process information that quickly. He's not good at diagnoising disguised zone coverages and blitz packages. He's not even good at identifying the simplest hot routes (remember the Troy Polamalu play???). If anything he's being coddled because that's when he succeeds best.

For years we've heard "He needs to be in shotgun no huddle to succeed!!" and why? Becasue he played in that offense in college? Because we had success, at home, in a no huddle against a terrible Bengals defense? Or a terrible Cardinals offense last year?

How about the Patriots this year and in the AFCCG? How about the Browns at home? How about the number 1 ranked defense last year on the road?

I agree that Joe Flacco isn't Peyton Manning, but he's certainly in a decent tier of QB's with Jay Cutler and Matt Shaubb, you can win championships with them, but the scheme has to be right. I don't believe Flacco is the kind of QB you want running a GB or NE style offense, he isn't quite that good, but he's certainly much better than any other options.

Re: The Ravens approached the offense the wrong way.

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

How about the Patriots this year and in the AFCCG? How about the Browns at home? How about the number 1 ranked defense last year on the road?

I agree that Joe Flacco isn't Peyton Manning, but he's certainly in a decent tier of QB's with Jay Cutler and Matt Shaubb, you can win championships with them, but the scheme has to be right. I don't believe Flacco is the kind of QB you want running a GB or NE style offense, he isn't quite that good, but he's certainly much better than any other options.

Can you really win a championship with guys like Cutler and Schaubb and Flacco? Sounds good in theory but I keep seeing those elite guys hoist the trophy. It's become a QB league and I'm not sure a 'good' QB can win it all

Re: The Ravens approached the offense the wrong way.

Originally Posted by PerpetuallyBored74

I never said Rice should be replaced.
I just pointed out how he doesn't fit Cam's offense as perfectly as Tomlinson did.

If anything, I'm suggesting that Cam needs to adjust the offense to better suit Rice's talents*** and stick with those adjustments rather than reverting back to how Cam prefers to do things (Cam's comfort zone).

***like for instance, running Rice to the outside more often and not sending him straight up the middle all the time. Also using Rice as an extra receiver, instead of relying on him to pass-block--you can use him to chip block, but with Vonta on this team, he should be the primary pass blocking back, which means he needs to be on the field more often too.

Speaking of Vonta, how is Flacco supposed to feel comfortable audibling to a run when a pass play is called if the best FB in the league is on the sideline?

The Ravens actually run the football better without Leach on the field than with him. When Leach is in the game, the defense only has to defend two plays: an iso run up the middle behind Leach's block, and a play-action pass designed to either take a deep shot to Torrey or throw underneath on a TE curl. When Leach is on the sideline the Ravens are a much more multiple, varied offense.

I'm not criticizing Leach for that, he is the best lead blocker in all of football--it's Cam Cameron's fault. When an offense is this easy to figure out, you are going to have more guys at the point of attack almost every play and that means failure.

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

I really don't understand why they don't use leach in pass pro.

Actually when the Ravens go to play action out of the I formation Leach does a good bit of pass blocking. When they roll Flacco out they usually have Leach slide out with him as a sort of personal protector. His assignment is on any blitzer that gets through the OL unblocked and he does a very good job of it, when the defense only rushes 4 he leaks out for a dump off. I think defenses have figured out that when the Ravens go to play action you send 4 and drop 7, because the OL can be beaten with 4 and if you have 7 to block 4 or 5 you're going to win.

Originally Posted by RavensNTerps

Flacco is just not as good as Rivers used to be or Brees it's not that hard to figure out.

I said it in Houston, it's a mistake trying to run a hurry up no huddle with a guy who, even the staunchest coddlers will admit, struggles to process information quickly especially in the face of pressure. What did we see after the bye week? A reining in of the hurry up. It's not a mystery. It's the elephant in the room that most people don't like to admit but halfway through year 5 we have a QB who is not good enough to lead a truly prolific offense.

Flacco has had a better career under Cam Cameron than Drew Brees at this point, it's inarguably established by the facts. He is better in every statistical category and if you go back and watch Brees on tape at that time he looks nothing like what he became in New Orleans. In fact, he looked just like a shorter, weaker-armed version of Flacco, because all QBs look the same under Cam.

One thing that goes unsaid in all this talk about making post-snap reads is that most of the top QBs like Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, and many others are dropping back and throwing timing patterns to their first reads 20 or 25 times a GAME at a minimum. In their offenses the entire system is built to get that first read open, get the ball out quickly, and set up the next play. Tom Brady is dropping back 3 steps and throwing the ball to Wes Welker as soon as that 3rd foot comes down. He doesn't even need to make a 2nd or 3rd read because the play is already decided before the snap and the route is there.

Alex Smith doesn't even make reads in his offense. If he drops back and the 1st read isn't there he is going to get the ball out to a dumpoff instantly. Nobody criticizes him for that because it's smart football, but we don't have a modern passing scheme and we're not used to seeing that kind of football. In the Ravens offense, the reason you see Flacco drop back and hold the ball so much is that the plays are so simple that the defense can take away the 1st read constantly. We also don't have an Antonio Gates or Wes Welker who is going to get open despite good coverage time after time because they are SO good. We have good players, but not THAT good.

Re: The Ravens approached the offense the wrong way.

Not buying that we run the ball better without Leach, people just look at the YPC and say oh that extra half a yard every carry must mean we don't run the ball better, so why have Leach out there? The reason we run the ball for more yards without Leach at times, is because teams are thinking pass all the way, with Leach in the game, teams load the box because otherwise Leach is going to piledrive smaller LB's or safeties. Anyway, all you have to look at is both the Rice and Pierce TD's on Sunday, and most of it was because Leach gave them a near clear passage way.

Re: The Ravens approached the offense the wrong way.

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

The Ravens actually run the football better without Leach on the field than with him. When Leach is in the game, the defense only has to defend two plays: an iso run up the middle behind Leach's block, and a play-action pass designed to either take a deep shot to Torrey or throw underneath on a TE curl. When Leach is on the sideline the Ravens are a much more multiple, varied offense.

I'm not criticizing Leach for that, he is the best lead blocker in all of football--it's Cam Cameron's fault. When an offense is this easy to figure out, you are going to have more guys at the point of attack almost every play and that means failure.

Actually when the Ravens go to play action out of the I formation Leach does a good bit of pass blocking. When they roll Flacco out they usually have Leach slide out with him as a sort of personal protector. His assignment is on any blitzer that gets through the OL unblocked and he does a very good job of it, when the defense only rushes 4 he leaks out for a dump off. I think defenses have figured out that when the Ravens go to play action you send 4 and drop 7, because the OL can be beaten with 4 and if you have 7 to block 4 or 5 you're going to win.

Flacco has had a better career under Cam Cameron than Drew Brees at this point, it's inarguably established by the facts. He is better in every statistical category and if you go back and watch Brees on tape at that time he looks nothing like what he became in New Orleans. In fact, he looked just like a shorter, weaker-armed version of Flacco, because all QBs look the same under Cam.

One thing that goes unsaid in all this talk about making post-snap reads is that most of the top QBs like Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, and many others are dropping back and throwing timing patterns to their first reads 20 or 25 times a GAME at a minimum. In their offenses the entire system is built to get that first read open, get the ball out quickly, and set up the next play. Tom Brady is dropping back 3 steps and throwing the ball to Wes Welker as soon as that 3rd foot comes down. He doesn't even need to make a 2nd or 3rd read because the play is already decided before the snap and the route is there.

Alex Smith doesn't even make reads in his offense. If he drops back and the 1st read isn't there he is going to get the ball out to a dumpoff instantly. Nobody criticizes him for that because it's smart football, but we don't have a modern passing scheme and we're not used to seeing that kind of football. In the Ravens offense, the reason you see Flacco drop back and hold the ball so much is that the plays are so simple that the defense can take away the 1st read constantly. We also don't have an Antonio Gates or Wes Welker who is going to get open despite good coverage time after time because they are SO good. We have good players, but not THAT good.

Sooo it's Cam's fault that Joe has no sense of timing on three five or seven step drops?

Re: The Ravens approached the offense the wrong way.

Joe or Cammie?
Which one is the problem?

How does a mechanic or engineer do it? I think it's a process of isolation and elimination.

For the Ravens, we won't ever be able to tell until they are separated...and since we absolutely know (from Stevie's sound bites over the last year or two) that Flacco isn't going anywhere, you gotta remove Cammie from the equation. If not then you are a hopeful fool (I don't think that's Stevie), or you are running with the assumption that with Joe and Cammie together, we can win it all. But that assumption has only become more foolish over time, because there's that annoying and constant element of life called reality.

And our reality includes our recent history of failing to execute in the playoffs. Yet, even using that history as an excuse to keep Joe and Cammie together works, but it only really works in a world where players never age, never retire, never sign elsewhere, and never hit the IR.

Re: The Ravens approached the offense the wrong way.

Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle

Can you really win a championship with guys like Cutler and Schaubb and Flacco? Sounds good in theory but I keep seeing those elite guys hoist the trophy. It's become a QB league and I'm not sure a 'good' QB can win it all

I think you certainly can. Eli Manning won his first SB when he was playing at arguably a below average level, while his team around him was very talented and could make up for it. Same for Bens first SB, the Steelers where also a power run based team that were very talented on defense. You can even go back and look at the likes of Tampa Bay and even us with Trent Difler. Chicago also made the SB with Rex Grossman as their starting QB. Houston and Chicacgo are IMO currently the best teams in the league and are most likely at this point to meet in the SB, and look at who their starting QB's are, certainly a lot better than Rex Grossman and Trent Difler, and a notch above what Ben and Eli were in their first SB wins, but not really top 5 guys.

Re: The Ravens approached the offense the wrong way.

Originally Posted by RavensNTerps

Sooo it's Cam's fault that Joe has no sense of timing on three five or seven step drops?

Joe was throwing timing patterns to Mason from day 1, no problem.
It is really simple.
If everytime you go to pass and EVERY ONE of your receivers are blanketed because the routes are basic and EVERY team KNOWS it...it is VERY DIFFICULT to succeed. This type of offensive strategy HAS put every Raven receiver at a disadvantage and the performance of the QB and the team suffers.

Watch a Steeler game and tell me how every Steeler receiver is WIDE OPEN every play.
They have been WIDE OPEN during the same time span including with Hines Ward who had nowhere near the speed of our Smith and Jones.

Re: The Ravens approached the offense the wrong way.

Obviously, there really is no data that I can put forth to show a discrepancy between where I think we should be and are.

I can tell you that I think we have the players (OL excepted) to dominate and we don't.

My expectations - our reality = disappointment.

Here is my rant/random thoughts.

Over the 30+ years of watching football, I can intuitively tell when an offense has a system that works or doesn't. Regularly successful systems tended to be pragmatic and evolve as personnel do.

We have a problem with play selection and blaming everything on execution. Is it fair to tell my 5 year old to run the 50 in 4 seconds and then blame execution when he fails?

The receiver has the advantage of knowing both what the play is and the parameters under which he will attempt to find the soft spot in the defense.

We just run routes. And long ones at that.

We have a truth over the last few years... our line cannot give our quarterback more than a couple of seconds reliably. Cry-Brady has 3-4. He can do the fancy long routes. And frankly, he sucks when doesn't get that much time... he proved it when we pressured him on the last drive in Baltimore. That our quarterback can find anybody open in 2 seconds with our system is frankly amazing.

I think it goes without question that we need to help Flacco to throw his passes in the 2-3 not 3-4 second ranges. There are plenty of teams that have done this and I can think of one case where a fantastic defense could not overcome less than 3 seconds routes. Recall the Dolphins playing the 85 Bears. Marino was throwing that ball mighty quickly to avoid that outstanding pass rush. He can't throw a ball quickly if you aren't running short routes.

I hated the 49ers and it irked the heck out of me when, routinely, either Montana/Young/insert backup quarterback, threw a whole 5-10 yard pass and the receiver who was up to full speed at the time of the catch would pick up 10 - 15 YAC.

Where are the timing plays? I watched Aikman to Irvin in the 90's pull this off all the time. Still frankly amazed they were able to do it spite of teams knowing they were going to do it.

Our system sucks. We're predictable and we are not pragmatic. Joe does not have time for the AC offense and I don't have the patience to wait for this dumb arse to figure that out.

Re: The Ravens approached the offense the wrong way.

For the life of me I've never seen an entire fanbase defend poor QB play nearly unanimously by blaming the OC. It is unfathomable!

Flacco has ALWAYS struggled getting the ball out on time. Watch. Seriously. Watch other QBs who release the ball immediately at the top of their drop. Then watch Flacco who gets to the top and is still staring down field. I even read one guy once say "you need to give Flacco 7 seconds to throw!" in his attempt to blame the OL.

I just don't get it. Why are people so afraid to criticize the guy who has barely been a top 20 QB this year? Why are people so desperate to search for another scape goat and not just call a spade a spade?

Re: The Ravens approached the offense the wrong way.

Originally Posted by RavensNTerps

For the life of me I've never seen an entire fanbase defend poor QB play nearly unanimously by blaming the OC. It is unfathomable!

Flacco has ALWAYS struggled getting the ball out on time. Watch. Seriously. Watch other QBs who release the ball immediately at the top of their drop. Then watch Flacco who gets to the top and is still staring down field. I even read one guy once say "you need to give Flacco 7 seconds to throw!" in his attempt to blame the OL.

I just don't get it. Why are people so afraid to criticize the guy who has barely been a top 20 QB this year? Why are people so desperate to search for another scape goat and not just call a spade a spade?

Cam, is that you? You aren't listening...you aren't learning...
Why are our receivers, especially our two speedsters not getting separation while all other teams have receivers running free??