In my case leash corrections were not as effective (rebelling) as food rewards for doing the right thing.

We're not talking about refusing to down. We're talking about openly challenging the handler. I too use rewards throughout training. But we're not talking about training. We're talking about respect. Respect is gained throught the consistent enforcement of boundaries. It sounds like this dog (1) doesn't know where the boundaries are or (2) knows and is pushing them. In either case he needs a wake up call for growling at the handler. Cookies aren't going to cut it.

Demo Dick

I realize what you are saying. Everyting all is saying makes sense to me. However myself as a beginner I probably would try everything everyone said to try, thinking they know better than I do. I was just saying what worked for me and how everyone has different views of the best way. In no way do I think anyone should do what worked for me. They dont know my dog. My first trainer who used harsher methods believed in not starting with a prong. He believed in starting with a martingale w/chain or choke depending on the dog. Leaving the prong as your level 10 correction. His thoughts were if you start with a prong your at your top level correction with no where else to go. It is an interesting concept. You are absolutely right cookies wont cut it. I was just wondering if she is only using corrections. When I started training there was no treats at all only corrections. Well we used treats only once to teach the down. I used that method cause thats what the trainer did and I did not know any better.

A five month old puppy that can poop on command? Let me just do the math here. You got the puppy mid-June so you've had it for about 4 weeks? I have been a professional trainer for 16 years and I couldn't do this. Not to mention the fact that if the dog doesn't have to go to the bathroom how can it comply with the command? Teaching a puppy in three months to poop on command with corrections? That's asking a lot of a very young puppy. What it sounds like is the owner not understanding training and dog behavior and pushing a puppy well beyond it's level of understanding. The dog tried to tell the owner that the correction was either too severe or not understood by objecting (growling, snapping, whatever). This isn't bad wiring, it's just simply bad training and bad understanding of dog behavior. Good dogs often correct their handlers when their handlers are unfair. Sounds like a good dog to me. Just my two cents but the conversation about the GL, hanging them up, and all the other suggestions are focussed on the dog, and it sounds like this problem is on the owner, who in this case is teaching the dog to be handler sharp (aggressive to handler). Again, just my two cents.

Chris Fraize wrote:A five month old puppy that can poop on command? Let me just do the math here. You got the puppy mid-June so you've had it for about 4 weeks? I have been a professional trainer for 16 years and I couldn't do this. Not to mention the fact that if the dog doesn't have to go to the bathroom how can it comply with the command? Teaching a puppy in three months to poop on command with corrections? That's asking a lot of a very young puppy. What it sounds like is the owner not understanding training and dog behavior and pushing a puppy well beyond it's level of understanding. The dog tried to tell the owner that the correction was either too severe or not understood by objecting (growling, snapping, whatever). This isn't bad wiring, it's just simply bad training and bad understanding of dog behavior. Good dogs often correct their handlers when their handlers are unfair. Sounds like a good dog to me. Just my two cents but the conversation about the GL, hanging them up, and all the other suggestions are focussed on the dog, and it sounds like this problem is on the owner, who in this case is teaching the dog to be handler sharp (aggressive to handler). Again, just my two cents.

Safe Training, Chris Fraize

I absolutely agree.

Thanks so much for saying this better than I ever could.

DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.

mnp13 wrote:My first question - what experience does your vet have with training? A gentle leader is going to do nothing to help an aggression problem. "Dog Prozac" is going to do nothing to help an aggression problem. Vets are medical doctors, unless this vet has actual training experience (and ask for credentials) I would speak to a trainer. I'm assuming you don't ask your medical doctor for advice on what training regimine you should do for bicycle riding?

2. Demo did not say "strangle the dog". Enough theatrics. I've done "the march" with Ruby more than once, it doesn't injure her, or really even hurt her. Grab the collar, stand up and walk. It's uncomfortable, but it gets the point across quite clearly.

OK...it's been a while since I posted, but I have another update on Doodle. He was neutered on Monday, and is doing fine in that aspect. I've been in contact with a professional, and mentioned the "hanging" technique. She recommended that I try it if he growls at me again. Soooo, the other day, I was working on his sit, down and stay with no leash corrections, and when I told him down, he just looked at me like I had three heads. I told him no, and repeated the command. He growled at me, and I hung him as was explained by Demo Dick and the trainer. I felt bad afterwards because it scared both him and me. He tried to bite my hand when I pulled the leash up, but soon settled down. Since then, he has been fine. No signs of aggression whatsoever. As someone said in an earlier post, it was a "come to Jesus moment." I think that's how it was described. But anyway, I believe it was a permanent fix. I hope so at least.

The trainer also said hold off on using the Gentle Leader, and see if he'll change his outlook on things by just using the "hanging." So, I didn't go out and buy one, which I'm glad seeing as how they're expensive and it would've been a waste of money.

I told my vet that I wanted to hold off on using the Clomicalm a.k.a. doggie Prozac. I wanted to see how he did with the trainer's suggestions, and so far he's doing fine without the meds.

Thanks for all the feedback on addressing Doodle's issues. I think we've made a turn for the better.

Jen

JenMommy to Mindy Lou and Moose

Pits are addicting!!! If I foster any more, my husband will have my head!

How do you KNOW that the puppy truly understands what down means?
How long have you been working on the behavior, how is your timing on positive reinforcement, have you worked with the puppy in different scenarios so that he's learned to generalize the behavior. In some cases perhaps hanging is appropriate, but I am of the firm belief that before you take drastic measures as a trainer, you should step back and evaluate yourself first. Is there anything in your method that needs to be refined or reworked?

I have found that in my personal training experiences, it was usually me that was making an error in training, not the dog, when things weren't going right. Not saying that this is the case in this situation because I'm not there, but definitely something to think about.

Since the first day I got him on June 14th. He is a very bright dog, and understood the command by the next day. I started off using treats, and by the end of the next day, he was sitting and laying down without using them at all. As far as pos. reinforcement, I make a huge deal out of doing something good with excited verbal and physical praise and treats. I'm trying to get him to catch treats in the air, now...it's funny to watch him try and catch them. His coordination isn't quite ready for catching them yet, I guess...he can be a bit clumsy sometimes with his legs growing so long so fast. Since the beginning, I've incorporated hand signals with the verbal command, and now, all I have to do is bring my hand up for him to sit and to point to the ground for him to lay down. I've worked him with the commands at friends' houses around new people, new dogs and such. We're working on staying calm around new people and new situations, and he is doing really well...very fast learner. Just the other day, he realized that if he goes to the door and whines or scratches on it, he gets taken out. I haven't worked with him at all about scratching on the door; he came up with that one all by himself...I'm tellin' ya--he's one of the smartest dogs I've ever seen.

JenMommy to Mindy Lou and Moose

Pits are addicting!!! If I foster any more, my husband will have my head!

Good question & something you should look into. Booger was a grumbler, Justice is too. In fact she woo woos, grumbles, pisses & moans all the time. She is very vocal & makes some crazy sounds sometimes that could sound aggressive if you don't know her. Last night I was blowing raspberries on her tummy, she was upside down, hanging her head off the side of the bed & would grumble when I blew her tummy. She *sounded like she was growling but she wasn't. I have heard her growl when we play tug & while it sounded similar there was a difference in the sound.....it wasn't as deep as a growl but it was "rumbleing" like a growl. Does that make any sense?

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

i'm not saying that trying to bite while being hung counts against the dog, but i do think that it sounds like the dog was growling--not grumbling or vocalizing--as the OP described it. couple that with the fact that the dog did try to bite when being hung, and i'd guess that the dog is indeed expressing challenges to the handler, not just expressing some desire to make a lil' noise.

i've hung dogs before. it was part of training when i was younger, it was what i was taught to do when a dog was disrespecting the handler . . . that was about 15 years ago when i was 18 and handling my first dog by myself (GSD). many dogs do not try to bite when they are "hung," they struggle and gasp a bit and then stop struggling and submit. then you let them down.

some do, some don't, and it depends on the dog and the handler and the relationship and a bunch of other factors.

for the record, hanging a dog is not something i've done in about 5 years, and it's not something i look forward to having to do again.