How routines (or pick up lines) can sabotage your results with women (especially over the long term) (2:00).

Story from Angel's past on using routines to pick up women in the year 2003 (3:50).

An alternative to preplanned routines - "natural routines" learned in the field (6:30).

The power of spontaneity in conversations (9:30).

How to avoid 'drying up' and not having anything to say in conversations (11:50).

Got "approach anxiety"? Let's talk about tools that you can use to get past it and build internal confidence so that it slowly disappears (14:00).

The three easy steps to learning a practical skill (21:00).

Examples of "Reacting Out Loud" - a tool to get out of situations where you don't know what to say (22:00).

A walkthrough of the three easy steps to learning a practical skill - using "Reacting Out Loud" examples and practice (25:00).

Spontaneity = Authenticity. (27:00).

The hidden pitfall of not being authentic. Like Attracts Like - What type of women do you want to be attracted to you? (29:00).

A different perspective on what the end goal of learning conversation and sting skills is - "Become More Alive and Enjoying Life" (30:00).

How long should you continue to use "conversation tools"? (32:30).

The essential ingredient to developing a real relationship with a woman. Building deeper rapport with great women. (38:20).

A simple technique to build deeper rapport with a woman that acts on the subconscious level with examples of how it affects women and us (40:00).

It's all about making it EASY mentally. Breaking down language to understand its impact in our communications. Some extreme examples between different languages are given to show how important common language is to making connecting with new people effortless. (45:00).

Items Mentioned in this Episode include:

Books, Courses and Training from Stephan Erdman

[Angel Donovan]: Hey, this is Angel with Dating Skills Podcast, and today we have Stephan Erdman. Stephan Erdman has a slightly different background from some of the other guys we've had on here before. He got into it in 2010, into the dating sort of area, dating coaching, and he's had a variety of careers in communications like acting. He's been in corporate communications, teaching in Fortune 500, Fortune 100. He's done LP coaching. So he's done a variety of things and he's got a few programs out on confident state building and getting stuck in conversation, so a new perspective there. Hi Stephan, how are you doing?

[Angel Donovan]: Great. Great to have you on the show. One of the things that you talk about a bit is why you shouldn't use routines or scripts or why they cannot be so good to use when you're getting into the game or when you start like going out, talking to women. So could you talk a little bit about that? Like what are your ideas about routines and scripts, and what are the disadvantages of using those?

[Stephan Erdman]: Okay, routines and scripts. I guess, well, apart from the fact that… [laughs] I guess me as an actor, having trained as an actor, I know how hard it is and how difficult it is I think to be sounding spontaneous and in the moment…

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Stephan Erdman]: …when you're actually using a premeditated routine or a script, right? Because, I mean, that's what you practice and work very hard on as an actor to make it into something that sounds like you've just come up with it, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Totally, and that's something you're trying to do every day as a career, so it shows how challenging it is, I guess.

[Stephan Erdman]: Yes, it is, and that's why there are many actors which are not that great because when you watch them, you can hear somehow—this is when you watch a cheap telesoap or whatever, what are they called, telenovela or something, one of those things—and you can hear every word just sounds a bit fake. I mean, that's one aspect where me, I've always wanted to… how can I say this? I've always had a thing in my life that I, in my own life, I never wanted to ever feel like I'm slightly pretending acting. I've always wanted to get closer to who I really am and be myself and authentic in all situations. That's one of my biggest drivers in my life, okay?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: But I guess the question is, why might it not be that effective from my point of view? And I'm not saying that it can't work for other people, and it's totally cool, of course, I'm not judging anybody, I'm just saying in my experience certain other things work better. For me the challenge is really women get a sense that when you're doing… when you're running a routine or you're using a script, they do become bystanders, really, and they often sense that something isn't quite happening right now in the moment.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: Guys also tend to work a lot harder when they're running a routine because they tend to speak a lot more and tend to break it up a little bit less, and the other challenge, of course, is you know, if you rely a lot on routines and scripts, I mean what happens when actually things work out? I mean, there's going to be a point when you're going to be with her and you're going to be hanging out, and if you have been relying on routines so far, or if you're relying on a slight act, you know, a slight false persona, then sooner or later, surely, you're going to run out of things to do because it's a persona, and sooner or later, I've certainly always wanted to be who I was and still be able to attract the girl and still be wanting, you know, for her to want to be with me and be close to me, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: So those are some of the things that I know just about it. It also gets really boring, you know, when you do the same thing…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: …all the time. To me it seems quite boring. After a while you think…

[Angel Donovan]: It sounds like you went through the same phase I did.

[Stephan Erdman]: I guess.

[Angel Donovan]: Actually, I've got kind of an interesting story that fits with what you just said.

[Stephan Erdman]: Share it.

[Angel Donovan]: It's just way back in 2003, I was using routines. I used them for about a year, and then I stopped, so that was then when I stopped, I was already getting good results when I was doing this. And in a club one night I was talking to a girl, and I was using some routines, not everything I said but some routines, and it was going very well and she was very into me and she loved me and everything, but at one point all of a sudden she goes, “This is just unbelievable. Are you some kind of actor or something?”

[Stephan Erdman]: [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: And I guess in a way I thought it was like because it was too slick, in a way, because I had been using those routines for a while and I really did have them down to the point where I was bored to death of them. [Laughs]

[Stephan Erdman]: Yes. Yeah. [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: I mean, they worked at that point, but it got to the point where I just couldn't say them anymore. I was so bored of them.

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: And I know that happens to some people, and then some other people, they don’t get so bored of them. So that was a story from me, and it's like, ooh…

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah. No, I relate to that. But also, I mean, on some level, I also started to kind of almost… you know when there is a girl there and, you know, while you're doing that, it becomes about your success rather than on finding out whether you're actually attracted to her…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: …whether you click with her, because you're kind of switching off your instinct, really, because you're running this premeditated thing. And so you're not noticing stuff about her at that moment, you're just noticing whether you're succeeding or not, and it stops you from actually figuring out whether you're interested in this girl. So you end up all of a sudden in bed with a girl that you're like, “You know, how did I actually end up here, just because I could?” [Laughs] There are a few situations when I've been wondering like, “What the hell am I doing here?” And that's when I kind of got the drift that there must be a better way of doing this.

[Angel Donovan]: Sure, sure, and so routines weren't for you. So are there situations where you would recommend routines and where you wouldn't recommend routines? Like are there specific cases for people studying this that you think are relevant?

[Stephan Erdman]: Hmm, that's an interesting one. I guess, you know, we as humans, we will naturally learn things. When we do them repeatedly, we will naturally fall into certain patterns, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: Like when we've talked to a girl and we had a great time and she had a great time and things worked out, we will naturally remember some things that worked well, yeah? Some things that… the right moments and so forth.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: So we naturally develop a few ways of doing things that we have seen and noticed to be working, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: So I just feel that if you're setting out on a premeditated way of doing that, and then you're repeating over and over, you're cutting off your intuition, you're cutting off your instincts, you're cutting off that spontaneous feel, you're also cutting off the fun. So I would personally not focus on premeditated approaches to things. I would focus on the things that I talk a lot about in the program, in the Pimp Your Lingo program, and that's more the next level below, so to speak, like “what is the principle that makes a conversation work” rather than “how can I talk this girl into submission in my super-cool, thought-out way of doing it.” I don't know whether that made sense. Did that make sense to you? [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. I think what you're trying to say is that you to relate a natural understanding of how a conversation works…

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: …rather than just giving some lines that get towards the result.

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So I guess in a way it's a more advanced training, because once you understand something you can be more flexible and use it how you want.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. Okay, great. So I know that a big part of that from your perspective is spontaneity and being in the moment.

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah. Well, yeah…

[Angel Donovan]: Why is that important and why do you see that as a key principle in conversations?

[Stephan Erdman]: First of all, because it makes you feel alive and you feel good. [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Stephan Erdman]: I mean, this is an odd thing, I guess. I'm saying this because very often the basics get a little bit overlooked, because very often when I observe people or when I talk to people and they tell me what’s happening, they are working way too hard. They're working so hard when it should be something that should be a process where they should be having a great time. They should be in a great state.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: And like being in a great state, the girl gets into a great state. Very often guys talk about it as if it's some sort of like… some sort of work assignment, you know? So spontaneity and being in the moment is crucial because if you can get into the moment and feel in the moment… and the whole program is basically designed to force you to be in the moment, if you want to practice any of the techniques, some of the very simple ones, you have to focus in the moment. Otherwise, you cannot do them, right? So it kind of conditions you to be in the moment.

But everything happens in the moment, not in the future, not in the past, in the conversation. If you could be totally in the moment, that's where the magic happens, that's where the little reactions happen, that's where you use your instinct, your intuition. So I totally like… I mean, I've even got this video on YouTube, [laughs] which is doing quite well, where I'm basically… I've come up with this very simple stupid-sounding little concept called “talk first, think later.”

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: And it's just like… because most of the guys that talk to me and want help, they're overthinking heavily, exactly like I used to do. And they think first, and then they think about… first they think what they want to say, and then they say it. Instead, in a social situation, even though it sounds counterintuitive, I found, since I switched that in my own head and I just talk out loud and then, you know, my instinct just takes over and I say whatever comes into my mind in response to what she's saying or whatever, I'm in the moment, all of a sudden everything is easy. Girls laugh a lot, have a great time, and because they know that I'm not censoring myself and I'm not stopping myself and I'm not hiding something.

[Angel Donovan]: Totally, and this comes… I mean, the issue of drying up, which everyone’s kind of afraid of that horrible moment when you're talking to a girl and all of a sudden you don't know what to say, and you get stuck. So how do you avoid that with this principle? How do you stay in the moment? Does just being in the moment, just talking first and thinking later, following a simple principle like that, stop you from drying up or is there more to it?

[Stephan Erdman]: Well, for me personally, drying up, it doesn’t really occur… in my head it's not… because I don’t really… I've conditioned myself. It's funny, when I think of all… I guess I'm normally having such a great time talking to people now, these days, and this is crazy because I used to be like super-shy, man, honestly. I used to just constantly like freak out. Talking to people or to women used to be a complete nightmare to me, unless I was drunk or something. But now I have too much of a good time that drying up… Drying up only happens if you're getting into a stressed state and if you're not in the moment, if you're thinking about… when you're focusing on the wrong things. That's when people dry up, when they get focused on…

For example, if she's talking and they're thinking rather than listening, and they're thinking about “What should I say next?” or “What should I do next in order to get her number?” or “When should I kiss her?” And when people are in their heads rather than actually out there and focusing on here, that's when people dry up. And the whole program is there to condition you to never even think… I mean, to take you into the moment and to make sure that you are never even… drying up never even occurs to you. That would be your thing because the mindset will be different, because you should be having so much fun, you should be having so many choices to play with a conversation and have a subtle control of it, while at the same time having a good time with it that drying up is not really an issue.

I mean, there are lots of techniques in there, like if you use a simple technique like, let's say, keyword backtracking, for example, right? I mean, that's probably known generally, isn't it?

[Angel Donovan]: I don't know what… keyword backtracking?

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Is that what it's called, the concept?

[Stephan Erdman]: Yes. Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: I don’t know that.

[Stephan Erdman]: Alright. It's just basically when you pick up a… you know, you listen to… I mean, it's a very useful technique for people to not feel stressed because they feel they don't know what to say next. I mean, one of the simplest ways of knowing what to say next and just keeping the conversation going in a way that makes sense and also makes her feel like you're listening to her and is organic…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Stephan Erdman]: …is if you ask her questions and she answers, that you pick up the key word or the key thing that sticks out. Like let's say, simple example, you say to a girl, “So, do you come here often?” [laughs] which is a terrible thing to say.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: But then she says, “Yeah, I've been here a few times but I've only moved here recently.” If you then just pick up one of the key words, like for example “moved,” you can just simply go, “Oh, you moved here, right. When did you move here?” or whatever, yeah? So you just pick up a key word that strikes you as interesting and you use it for your response. I mean, it's a very basic technique…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: …but it helps a lot of guys who need something simple to stay… to first of all get them to focus on listening, at the same time just intuitively drive the conversation forward with something that also gets her to understand that you have listened and that you are hearing her.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: Because many guys will just switch the subject and say, “Well, I come here all the time, blah, blah, blah,” and it doesn’t really relate to what she's saying. I know this is a basic example, but you know… [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, no, I totally get it. I mean, it's always the simple things that help the most, I find…

[Stephan Erdman]: Totally.

[Angel Donovan]: …because they're the easiest to implement.

[Stephan Erdman]: Totally.

[Angel Donovan]: That's a nice little trick that I'm sure people can grab and be using as soon as they’ve listened to this stuff. So if you're looking at learning like of six months, and the guy, first of all, he starts off and he's drying up, so basically the first night you went out and tried to practice some of this stuff, you went into a bar you said hi to a girl, and you didn't get any further than that, basically just, “Hey! What’s up?” and she said something and you got stuck, right?

[Stephan Erdman]: Uh-huh.

[Angel Donovan]: So in that situation you may lose confidence, and the problem is, for some guys, you may not feel like going out again or you may really kind of get this kind of fear of approaching, you know, approach anxiety, right?

[Stephan Erdman]: Right, right.

[Angel Donovan]: So from there, you would start using some of your tools, I guess, to try and get over this. So you have, how would you say, an easy way in, right? Using some simple tools to get into conversations, and to basically rely on, I guess. It's like your backup so that you don’t have to feel like you're out there in the wild and you have to come up with stuff on the fly in a complicated way…

[Stephan Erdman]: [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: …but you've got this simple thing you can do.

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So does applying some of these things over time build confidence…

[Stephan Erdman]: Totally.

[Angel Donovan]: …over time, or how does it work in your experience?

[Stephan Erdman]: Totally. Basically, the program is in three parts, okay? There's inner game, then there's what I call connection factors, and then there's attraction factors. And I've put it in that way because very often when you talk to people, it's a bit like they have learned something intellectually, but when you actually ask them in practice, it doesn’t seem to have been understood and the basis isn't often there.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: You know, people get way too heady in their minds thinking about all kinds of like mental constructs when the basics are not really there yet. So, how to create rapport with a person, okay? Very basic. People always say, “Oh, I know how to do that,” but when you actually see it in practice, it doesn’t really come across.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: So what happens is when you start practicing, I mean, I basically suggest that you take, I mean off the program, for example, that you take one technique or one idea and you just practice it in all kinds of situations, because the great thing is many of the things, you can practice them in day-to-day situations so that you learn the one tool, and then it becomes a part of you, and then you've learned that you are not at risk of drying up because you're not worried about what to say next anymore, because you know that when she’s just said something there's always a way that you can move the conversation forward from it at the same time that it makes sense, so that you don’t have to switch the topic.

So yes, it builds confidence, of course. I mean, there are two ways of building confidence. You can either build confidence through confidence-building methods, which is about changing your frame and changing the way you use your body, your mind, your thinking, and so forth, or you can build confidence through becoming great at the skill of making a conversation work.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: And this program is all about the second way, basically, the skill and the understanding of how to make a conversation work, yeah. So this program is the opposite, I guess, from my confidence programs…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: …because they tend to be more inner-game-focused, and this is very practical. So you get all these techniques in order for them to condition you to get effortless, confident, and have a great time with conversations and actually be able to hook a girl in and develop attraction, and to also…and really, in the end, to seduce a girl in the way that they want to be seduced in a conversation.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. Okay, so it's like, yeah, I get this now. So basically you use tools that enable you to make conversation, right? And you build them up by adding one after the other, I guess, practicing one of them, and then once you’ve got that one down, you practice another tool, adding on top of that. Is that the way you build it up?

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah, I mean, if you're talking about how to implement this, then…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: I mean, what’s the easiest way of describing this? Yes, that's basically it, but I mean, what I really suggest is that… I've got a video on YouTube as well that teaches this…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: … breaking this process down. I think it's called… What’s it called? I think either something about how to implement any social skill or three-step self-help formula or something, but basically…

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[Stephan Erdman]: …that you should always take three steps with learning something new that is about your behavior and your interacting with people, which I suggest because the first step I would always suggest is mental rehearsal…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: …the second step is low-pressure practice, and the third step is higher-pressure practice, so when you really want to…when it really matters.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, can you explain what those are?

[Stephan Erdman]: Okay, so mental rehearsal, if you have a concept or an idea… Alright, let's say, I have this concept called reacting out loud, okay? [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: It sounds silly, but it basically is like very often people… this is more to do with starting conversations actually, so it's not a part of this program, but it's part of the Approach At Will program. But let's say… so if you start… the idea of reacting out loud, okay? Somebody explains it to you, I say, “You know, this is what I want you to do.” Reacting out loud is when you're in a social situation, when you notice something and you're standing next to a girl, rather than, you know, what most guys do is react in their heads and think, oh, they notice it and then they make a mental note, “Oh, this is interesting”—you know, there's a mouse running by because I'm on the underground or something, “Oh, she's noticing it. Well, maybe I should say something,” but then they don’t—so what I'm saying is reacting out loud means, very simple concept, whatever comes out and you see something that's happening, you just react out loud to it, okay? So rather than thinking in your head, you just go, “Oh, there's a mouse! Bloody hell! Did you see that?” Yeah?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Stephan Erdman]: Do you follow my lazy example?

[Angel Donovan]: I can relate completely…

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah?

[Angel Donovan]: …to what you're talking about there because I would say that that's mostly what I was doing over the last few years…

[Stephan Erdman]: Uh-huh.

[Angel Donovan]: …just reacting out loud. I've never heard anyone explain it like that, but basically I think if you become more observant you see a lot of stuff, and there's a lot of interesting going on, especially with the girl’s behavior…

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: …and you can just bring it up, basically…

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: “Hey, that was interesting what you did.” “Hey, are you squinting your eyes at me?” Whatever she just did…

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: …you can bring it up or react to it, like you say.

[Stephan Erdman]: Right there and then, you know? And when you practice, yeah? When you get good at that, you get into conversations all the time and it's completely spontaneous, which is what women love, right? Because women don’t sit around in the morning going, “Oh, I really hope that some guy will pick me up today.” They think, “Oh, it would be great to happen to meet a guy by accident who turns out to be a cool dude,” yeah? So it feels spontaneous. But anyway, we're digressing, right? Because I'm trying to explain this process. [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Stephan Erdman]: So, three steps, right?

[Angel Donovan]: It's not a bad digression.

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah. [Laughs] Three steps, right? First step, mental rehearsal. Lots of guys, they only want to start practicing in high-pressure situations, so that's why they never get to it, and then they freak out. So mental rehearsal’s a great first step. If you say, take this idea of reacting out loud, right? Mental rehearsal will be, okay, you're sitting at home, you're imagining, what would reacting out loud mean? What would it look like? What would it feel like? What would it sound like? So, imagining in your mind, you know, yourself reacting out loud in a situation. When could this happen?

Like, for example, when you're out and about on the undergound, right? And you notice something. What would it feel like? What would it be like? What would I have to do in order to be reacting out loud rather than inside of my head, yeah? So you're imagining it in your own space. There's no pressure. You're just imagining it so that you get a clear picture of what it is that you're trying to achieve, yeah?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: And that makes sense, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Totally.

[Stephan Erdman]: And then you go to step number two, and that will be low-pressure practice that, you know, I keep saying this all the time to people, all the simple interactions in life, when you buy your food, when you talk to the checkout girl, when you speak to somebody on the phone who wants to sell you car insurance or I don't know what, when you go around the corner, when you stand at the bus stop with people, when you meet an old lady, you help her across the street, in all those situations, when you're not completely into the girl and you think your life is going to end if she doesn’t like you, in those situations, practice this thing, yeah?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: Practice reacting out loud, so that you can learn the skill and get a sense of, “Hey, I can do this,” and “I know this feels good,” and “People react positively in all those low-pressure situations.”

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: And then you go to step number three once you've got a sense of, “Yeah, I can do this, and this works and I'm getting good feedback.” And then you can use it in higher-pressure situations. Then you can use it in the situations when you really want to be able to do this and when there's a bit of pressure there, because then you will have the sensation of, “Yeah, this has worked for me, this does work,” and you'll feel much more confident using it.

[Angel Donovan]: Great. That was a really good explanation of how to go through learning this stuff. So being spontaneous and in the moment, you say it relates to authenticity and you say it's important. So why is that? Can you talk a bit more about that?

[Stephan Erdman]: Well, I think a lot of guys that follow my stuff, they want to get away from the whole approach of, “Hey, I need to get good at pretending to be somebody else so that I can create this temporary illusion that I'm an interesting guy,” which sometimes can come across a little bit in some other way that, you know, meeting women can be taught a little bit. They really want women to be attracted to them, but to them rather than to something that they have sort of carefully crafted, if that makes sense. And of course, for that you need to become more attractive but as you, if that makes sense. You need to become a more attractive man by becoming your best self and reach your personal potential rather than just becoming good at faking it temporarily.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: So authenticity is very attractive, which we know as well as men, because when we meet a girl, that is, you know, who are the most attractive, beautiful women? I mean, if you have two stunning women and one of them is totally unaware that she's stunning and humble and all of those things at the same time, I mean, you're going to be a lot more attracted to her than to a stunning woman who is sort of caught up in her own stunningness, [laughs] if there is such a thing.

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Stephan Erdman]: [Laughs] Well, maybe that's me. But you know, generally, if you really want to connect with somebody, you first—ha! Actually, you know what? The biggest point here is this: If you are not authentic and if you're not managing to be you but at your best, you tend to attract women who are also not authentic and them at their best, if that makes sense. You cannot attract women which are very real and down-to-earth and congruent and authentic in themselves by being fake or by being somebody who is basically acting or pretending to be somebody bigger, better, whatever, than they are, if that makes sense.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: Does that make sense?

[Angel Donovan]: That does make sense to me with the experience I have. I think people who have less experience, it's something that's hard to grasp, I guess.

[Stephan Erdman]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: So I don't know if there’s a practical way to explain that to someone who’s quite new to this.

[Stephan Erdman]: Mm-hmm. Well…

[Angel Donovan]: You know, how it works…

[Stephan Erdman]: I guess one crucial thing, and I mentioned this earlier, here's the thing, and I know this very well from my own personal experience because I have obviously been quite obsessed with… Here's the thing. I've always been… my personal drive, my personal challenge, has always been I've always wanted to be completely comfortable, like alive and real, in any situation, and especially with women, because in the past I've always felt like I was acting when I was around people, okay? I was always trying to project something more, something bigger, you know, trying to appear more interesting or more important than I actually was, okay?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: I've always had sort of like this bullshit alert set on high in my own life, and the sort of like, “Oh, I'm faking this right now. This feels bad.” And it causes a lot of tension, it causes a lot of stress in your own body, and it gets you very self-involved, and that's one of the crucial problems that I always see with people when I talk to them. It's almost like, with guys especially who are deep into attracting women and so forth and who are sort of at the stage of… they're so stuck in their heads that they don’t notice what’s going on around them. In the end, all you need to do is to get somebody to really focus on what’s happening outside and lose that self-consciousness, and things can become very simple.

And that's what I've noticed in my own life. The less I try to be somebody else, the more authentic I become, the more real I've become, the more I notice what’s happening. It's almost like there's like a veil that comes down and you just notice what’s happening. This sounds a bit ethereal now, doesn’t it? But [laughs]…

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs] Yeah. So I just wanted to talk about implementation of this. You gave us a couple of tools, keyword backtracking and the other one, which was reacting out loud.

[Stephan Erdman]: Oh yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So are these things that you use for a while as training wheels, and then eventually you just stop using them and you don’t even kind of realize that you stop using them? Or are they things that you intend to use for the rest of your life, and maybe not so consciously…

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: …you know, once you've got them down, but you're kind of still using them?

[Stephan Erdman]: Definitely not consciously, you know, because I mean with anything like this, these are tools. There are a lot of tools that I have been… you know the connection factor stuff? That's very often things that I have been teaching people in companies as well because, like very often you have people that are very experienced or whatever, but they haven't got a clue about how to have a simple conversation.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: That does make the subordinate feel like crap and so forth. So, yes, at the beginning it's a conscious process, and the more you practice with the tools, the better. And at the beginning it's a conscious process. Sooner or later, it becomes a part of you and you just… automatically you have your radar out, you notice what you need to do in order to move the conversation forward, in order to properly build the connection, in order to start flirting.

Then some of the other things, I do it, you know, a lot just because it's so much fun, like, for example, if you use some of the… I've got this other one called keyword twisting, where you're basically using the same thing but in a flirtatious kind of way. So you're turning it into something… you're turning whatever she's saying into something that you can use to tease her with or to make it appear that she's heavily into you or that she's deeply attracted to you or that she's aggressive or whatever, you know? So I do that a lot, but it's just instinctive after a while. And I hope anybody that's been using the program, and this is always important, I get them to practice as long as possible and as much as possible so that they then… it just becomes a part of them, you know? So that they don’t…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. Does that vary a lot? So how long does it take people practicing your stuff, like hours per day or, you know, whatever kind of measure you can think of?

[Stephan Erdman]: Difficult to say. You know it's difficult to say. You know, I get a lot of great feedback. People say, “Wow, this is working, blah, blah, blah.” So it's difficult to say. Some people say to me, “Wow, I've been using this, I've been getting job interviews, and I've been getting a job and stuff,” and it's down to the program. So there are some side effects as well, but it's difficult to say like this is how long it takes. It all depends, you know. Anything, any program in the world, some people will…

[Angel Donovan]: Depends on where you're coming from.

[Stephan Erdman]: Totally, yeah. And some people will listen to it once and then they think, “Oh, I understand this,” and then they never use it because they forget that you need to practice and implement stuff. If you understand something, you just added more noise in your brain.

[Angel Donovan]: Sure.

[Stephan Erdman]: But, you know, the main thing with the program is, hopefully, that because I'm focusing on the essential things first, and then on the slightly more advanced stuff later, that people go through the essential stuff and just get it because hopefully I've made it quite simple…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: …and I'm giving lots of examples. So hopefully people pick it up, and from what I'm hearing, that they do, and that basically it goes in and it becomes part of you…

[Angel Donovan]: Is it about daily practice?

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah. Well, ideally, yes.

[Angel Donovan]: Like I’ll give you an example.

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Like one of the things I used to do is I used to be practicing new things I had, like new ways of interacting or whatever, pretty much all day, you know?

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Any conversation I was having. So it was very, very frequent practice, right? And I think for me, and I know for other people, those other people maybe aren't OCD, obsessive-compulsive disorder like me on things, that help things to like kind of embed really fast.

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah…

[Angel Donovan]: So like how often do you think it's best to practice?

[Stephan Erdman]: Whenever you…

[Angel Donovan]: Is it best to approach it like that, do as much as you can, or do you find that most people can get it down by maybe going out twice a week or practicing whenever they socialize?

[Stephan Erdman]: I'm totally with you. I believe a lot… One of the key things is I believe totally in low-pressure practice. One of the biggest problems is people stay in their heads with stuff. I had a real problem with that. The more you can practice anything in simple situations, the better. If you have friends—this is why I also think like people that say, “Oh, you shouldn't be friends with girls,” bullshit. You know, being friends with girls, if you're friends with girls, if you have a lot of female friends, brilliant. Play around with this stuff. Flirt with them if it's fun, if everybody’s happy. It's a lot of fun for them too, and you can practice your stuff and you can get some good feedback about what you're doing. You can notice what makes them laugh and whatnot. Sometimes things can develop.

It's like people are way too black and white about these things. Use whatever you can, I mean do a lot of practice all the time. Any situation that you're in when you're opening your mouth, talking to somebody, use stuff, practice stuff. I mean, you have to be a little bit obsessed about this. It's much better than trying to start to practice when it really matters.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah? Because then you don’t have a sense of, “Oh, I can do this already because I've done it over and over again.”

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, totally. So one of the little parts that you focus on is deeper rapport…

[Stephan Erdman]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: …with women, building deeper rapport. Can you talk a bit about, is it using the same tools, the same types of tools, or are these different tools, and why this is important, what kind of impact can that have in your relationships or what positive results can you get from that? Why is it important?

[Stephan Erdman]: …all kinds of guys, you know, and you need to find… if you really want to… I guess deeper rapport maybe doesn’t matter if you are meeting a girl in a club and you want to have a one-night stand and stuff like that.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Stephan Erdman]: Maybe it's not the key thing. But I guess my stuff is about attracting women and connecting with women that you actually want to, let's say, be in a relationship with or that you want to be your lover. So if you can build deeper rapport with a woman, if you can make her think about stuff that she didn't even know she wanted to think about, like what stuff means to her, or if you can make her feel connected at some sort of level that she wasn't even aware of that she had, you know, of course she's going to be interested in you, of course she's going to be like, “Wow, this guy made me think about this. This guy made me feel like this. That's amazing. He's very interesting.” She's intrigued. I'm not sure whether I answered your question there or whether I understood it correctly, but I’ll do my best here with my limited mental capacity. [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs] That’s good. So I guess you're using different tools for this, or how does it work, deeper rapport?

[Stephan Erdman]: Well, deeper rapport, one of the key simple ideas that is really important and that I'm sure is also common knowledge but it's good to mention it, a simple, simple thing that is very easy to understand is that when one person is using specific words and you're using specific words which match the words that she's just been using on some deeper level, often subconsciously, she will feel more connected with you, you know?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: Which is logical because in general we are attracted and feel connected to people who sound like us, who are similar to us, a lot more than people that use different language and that use different words.

[Angel Donovan]: You know, this is something that I can relate to mostly my relationships or like when you say like girls are really, really into me…

[Stephan Erdman]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: …and what I see is like I have kind of like a unique vocabulary because I've lived in a lot of different places and I tend to make up my own words sometimes…

[Stephan Erdman]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: …and use them. So when I meet a girl, I’ll use these words, and at first she won't know what they are, but then what I find is the girls that like me the most or when I get into a relationship, they’ll start using the words themselves in the texts, when we're just talking or with their friends, and eventually it becomes part of their vocabulary.

[Stephan Erdman]: Exactly.

[Angel Donovan]: So I'm offering the perspective from the girl’s side, of her basically modelling you subconsciously in a way…

[Stephan Erdman]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: …and she's not doing this on purpose, but she's starting to use your vocabulary.

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: And it's definitely true those are the strongest relationships or the strongest attraction. That tends to be where I see that.

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah. It's very true, and I'm sure you have specific words that you like a lot. I mean, my favorite word, for example, is shenanigans, for some reason. I find it a fun word to say all the time. And yeah, I mean, the girls I'm with, they start to… exactly like you said, tend to mirror those words as well when they spend time with me, and it builds a bond. It builds a deeper bond very often when you're starting to have your own little language. I'm sure in the seduction community generally there's a lot about that, about creating your own secret language. I mean, that's how the whole community I guess interacts with each other, which can sometimes also, I guess, be a little bit confusing for people who are entering it.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: But the key thing is if you can easily pick up and use some of the words she's saying, without being like sneaky about it, it's just a natural thing that you can do, and you can be just aware that if you're responding, using some of the words back that she's using, on some deeper level, without noticing it—and the thing is on the program, like I've been demonstrating some of the techniques with friends of mine, female friends of mine who are sitting there with me, and they didn't know them yet and I explained them to them, and then I practice it with them and I go through the techniques. And then I ask them afterwards like, “Did you notice what I was doing?” And even though I explained the technique to them beforehand and I said, “I'm going to be doing this now,” afterwards they would say, “Well, I didn't really notice it, to be honest,” but they just felt, yeah, they just felt good and they felt connected.

So it comes across very subtly because if you're just using some of the words back, people tend to just carry on feeling connected and being in their own world and thinking about what they’ve been saying when you respond in a way that links in with what they're saying. I hope that made sense. Does that make sense?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Stephan Erdman]: Yes?

[Angel Donovan]: That made total sense to me…

[Stephan Erdman]: Okay.

[Angel Donovan]: …and I think it's pretty clear for the people listening also.

[Stephan Erdman]: Cool. So that's why you can develop a real connection and really deep rapport simply by using some of the very simple tools like using some of the words back, even using the whole sentence back. Very often, I mean, you can have… the funniest reaction you can get, if the girl says something to you and you simply just say the word back with her with a raised eyebrow…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Stephan Erdman]: It's like, you know, it's one of the simplest ways that you can get a girl to laugh. For some reason, women just crack up every time when she says, I don't know, you know, stupid example, “I'm going shopping,” and you just go, “Shopping?” And they go, “Yeah, shopping, why?” And there you have a moment of something happening, of making her feel in a specific way of having an emotional impact, you know? Sometimes you just need to do the simplest, stupidest things and you'll have an impact, you know.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm thinking of a specific way you can explain this, which some of the podcast listeners who maybe have been studying this stuff for long will probably get, is I know you speak… you know, English isn't your natural language, your first language, and I speak a few languages also, so you may be able to relate to this too, but for other people, like when you're basically learning another language, and when you go traveling and you use that language, you see people relate to you on such a different level. It makes such a difference in business, in building relationships with people wherever you go to actually learn the language of the country where you are. Makes a huge difference.

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: And it's all just about understanding and communication, and in the same way as you're saying, just using the same words, it just means that people understand each other that much better, you know?

[Stephan Erdman]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: They're communicating that much more simply to each other in the same voice, and they immediately feel they can build a relationship easier. They feel it's easier.

Because, you know, often one of the reasons that we have trouble developing a deeper relationship with people is just that it's hard work, you know what I mean? Like, so if you go to some networking event, for an example…

[Stephan Erdman]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: …or if you're approaching a woman in a loud club…

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: …it can be difficult to just get that relationship started, and you have to put a lot more energy into it. Because it's not easy, because there's loud noise or because you don't know each other and maybe you haven't got common topics that you think you can talk about, so it's not so easy. But when you're with a friend, you're just talking about the same things you know you always talk about—you know, I was with a friend today and we were talking about the usual stuff. But if I go and talk to someone new who doesn’t have those interests, it then becomes a challenge. I have to start thinking, “Okay, are they interested in football?” or “What am I going to talk about here?” and it becomes a greater mental effort. And people will always go to the mentally more lazy side, you know. It's just conserving energy. It's kind of like down to our biology. We’ll always try and conserve more energy and be a bit more mentally lazy as well as physically…

[Stephan Erdman]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Or I guess better than saying lazy is efficient, you know. We're all about being efficient in what we do. So it becomes a lot easier if you make it a lot easier, just by using the same words in the same way as if you're speaking a different language, you're using the same words, but just on a more subtle level if you're using the same language and you're using the same words, it becomes slightly easier to understand each other and relate to each other.

[Stephan Erdman]: Totally, and you know, when you're using the same words and the same language, you're really just helping a girl to trust you quickly and to build that relationship much more quickly than most normal people would. So you're not doing anything weird, you're actually just helping the process to develop trust, you know. And that's one of the key things at the beginning, of course. Okay, good story there.

[Angel Donovan]: Yup, this has been a great and very different podcast than the usual ones. Have you got anything you want to add on the end about what we're talking about or anything else? What I do want to note is that you’ve mentioned a couple of YouTube videos and your program, Pimp Your Lingo, and so there'll be links to those on the page when it goes up. Have you got anything else you want to talk about?

[Stephan Erdman]: Well, just that reading the editor’s review, although I don’t agree with all of it, it's great that your website, at least generally, it comes across as very authentic, so people give their honest opinions, and that's such a difference from all the kind of weird, fake review sites that you get online. So I think that's where I like your site a lot.

[Angel Donovan]: Thank you very much, man. I appreciate the compliment. And I like your take on authenticity. I think it's extremely important in relationships, and I agree with everything we've been talking about today.

[Stephan Erdman]: Cool.

[Angel Donovan]: So it's been a great podcast.

[Stephan Erdman]: It's been fun, yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: I’d even say like, you know, for people… you know, you haven't really talked about this, but you convey in what you're talking about, I guess that this stuff appeals to different people at different stages of learning this stuff, and I guess this kind of material is probably more relevant for people looking for relationships, for looking for girlfriends, for looking to build better relationships, or maybe they're looking for more generally to like develop better relationships in the whole of their life like you were saying earlier, like socially and in career and so on. Would you agree with that?

[Stephan Erdman]: To a degree, yes, but it will also be helpful for anybody that feels maybe a little bit overwhelmed with too much stuff happening in their heads, because the program will help you to just basically… it conditions you to get out of your head and actually to get into the moment and into the other person, if that makes sense. So yeah, it certainly has… I mean, whatever I put into the program is everything that I've found the most useful in order to connect with people and to attract women in conversation, and that's why I put it into that program. So yeah, great. Well, it's been great talking to you, Angel.

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DSR Podcast is a weekly podcast where Angel Donovan seeks out and interviews the best experts he can find from bestselling authors, to the most experienced people with extreme dating lifestyles. The interviews were created by Angel Donovan to help you improve yourself as men - by mastering dating, sex and relationships skills and get the dating life you aspire to.

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