From our reporters in Germany

Is it ok to wave the German flag?

So bearing in mind how the country will be gripped for Friday's quarter-final against Argentina in Berlin, I thought it would be interesting to get a take on the issue of German patriotism, which has cropped up in quite a few of our blog debates.

I asked one reader, 29-year-old Antje - who was born in Rostock in the former East Germany but has lived in London for four years - for her thoughts on following her country.

I also asked someone from the older generation - 75-year-old Afred Fiks, whose family escaped Nazi Germany in 1939 - to make a guest post on his story.

By Antje Schroeder

The evening after we beat Ecuador 3-0, I met a friend, who plays for my football team, at the Offside Bar in Islington to watch England play Sweden. Kate is a football fanatic, who has made this bar her home for the time being. She arrives at least three hours before an England kick-off to get the best seats.

When I arrived, her and some of her friends were in a great mood, wearing England shirts and draping the English flag over their chairs. I am used to getting stick for being German from my team ('5-1 in Munich, remember…'), and even the bracelet in our colours I am currently wearing got me some comments the other day. So when I asked Kate whether I could get my German flag out she said 'I'd go and ask the bar owner if he minds'.

Would you ask to get out a Swedish, or Italian, or Costa Rica flag? As it happened the owner didn't mind and I sat all night with the German flag over my chair and cheered for England. I was surprised nobody in the bar commented on it. At the final whistle Kate and I wrapped our flags around our shoulders, celebrating that both teams had won their groups, and most importantly avoided playing each other. As soon as I walked to the tube by myself, the flag was back in the bag.

This was the first time I'd got the flag out in London. I'd bought it in Blackburn a year ago to cheer on the German women's team in the final of the European Championships. It's been living in the back of a drawer ever since. I had always said that I would never get a German flag or paint our colours on my face. I cannot really explain why. We just don't do it. I'm envious of other nations like the English. I would love to wear an England shirt any time - but don't do it as it is not my country.

Maybe this World Cup is doing us a lot of good. We are proving to the world that we cannot just deliver a well organised, efficient event, but also a very friendly reception and a lot of fun and entertainment! World Cup tourists seem greatly surprised at how nice the Germans are. I hope this is gonna last. And if our relationship to our nation and its symbols improves, then it's good for everyone.

I'll be at the Goethe Institute to watch the Argentina game where the crowd will be mainly German (there are actually not many German bars or restaurants in London and those that do exist either charge horrendous money to watch the football or are Oktoberfest pubs run by and for Antipodeans).

Can Germany win? I'll stick to our chancellor Angela Merkel's words - she reminded the nation in her New Year's message that we are already world champions - in women's football. There was no reason., she said, that the men cannot do what women had already achieved.

At the Goethe Institute, some people will be wearing old retro shirts from our first World Cup triumph in 1954. Others will pull the current German shirt over their business shirts and enjoy the overpriced German beer. It's great that the whole crowd cheers when we score! I'm not used to that as in this country nobody ever cheers for us when it comes to football. Last time, I went by myself and kept my flag in my bag. I did not feel comfortable getting it out.

Will I get my flag out this time? What I know for sure is this: if we play England in the final I will be in the pub with Kate and the flag will be there, too.

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2.

At 07:16 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

Steph wrote:

I think it should be added that the flag all these Germans are waving has a deeply democratic and indeed anti-fascist history. It was the flag of the democratic faction in the German 1848 revolution and remained the symbol of the democratic opposition both to the Reich and to Hitler's nazi Germany (both whose flags were black-white-red). In that sense, no-one should misinterpret all this flag-waving as in any way connected to right-wing thinking (in fact, German neo-nazis stick with black-white-red).

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3.

At 08:05 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

Hamza wrote:

I can see the point of this blog. Being half German but living since the age of three in England I've taken grief most of my life simply for being half German. The old 'Nazi' stuff would be raised in playground jokes for example. I've lived with this and get used to it.

It's just nice for once to have the world saying how lovely the Germans are. We're like everyone else, just wanna be loved.

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The first (somewhat illiterate) posting is absolutely typical of the narrow-minded English mentality, which sadly and unfortunately is something which Antje will almost certainly have to live with in England for years to come.

I can understand Antje’s viewpoint better than many, although from the reverse angle. I came to Germany from the UK over 20 years ago, and have taken a fair amount of (always good-natured) stick as an England fan in my time. I live in a small village in the south, and we all watch major internationals on the music club’s premises (75 people were crammed in for the opener against Costa Rica). 2 years ago (I had only recently moved here from further south with my family), I pitched up for England’s first game with my various flags, scarves, etc. The father of a guy I play football with took one of the flags and hung it on the street railings outside. Ever since then, I have been hanging it up in the same place whenever England play (cue various jokes about fire extinguishers, “Who’s got some matches”, etc. which are intended to invite some sarcastic comments from the one being baited, i.e. me). Inside hangs my England/Wolves flag (together with various other flags from the other competing nations) throughout the tournament. A huge St. George’s flag is draped from my balcony, visible to everybody entering the village. I’ve got a t-shirt from our 5-1 win in Munich back in 2001 showing the final scoreboard (treasured because I was in the stadium), which I always wear under my keeper’s top whenever I play in our local senior team. A conversation-starter if ever there was one!

I think that Germany has done a brilliant job with this World Cup as far as the fans from all countries are concerned. The German people have made a massive contribution with their welcoming attitude and sheer enthusiasm, and it is really impressive to see all the German flags flying from car windows and aerials and hanging from windows and balconies all over the place. Absolutely brilliant. Such a difference to 1988, when the European Championships were held almost in an apologetic atmosphere.

In the past 20 years I have only twice been ‘got at’ for being an England fan, both times in 1988 by people (including understandably by an off-duty police officer who had had to deal with rampaging England fans in Stuttgart) slightly the worse for wear from too much beer, but I have never, ever felt intimidated, been threatened or made uncomfortable because I passionately follow England. But I cannot imagine that I would have received the same treatment in England if I were German and started flaunting the fact at every football-related opportunity as I can do here without even having to think about any possible consequences.

The only consequences I will have to face are if we lose to Germany again on penalties, which, having been through that torture twice in 1990 and 1996 sitting in the same pub with the same group of English and German friends, in my book will represent a good reason to leave the country :-)

And should Germany get to the final, and we don’t, then I will also be cheering them on with all my friends in the music club, and I wouldn’t mind betting that my England flag will be flying outside on the railings. And if it comes to another showdown, and we do win, then I know for a certainty that I will receive congratulations from everybody present. The odds of that happening in your average pub back home are probably around zero.

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5.

At 08:35 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

Eben wrote:

It is rather unfortunate that the Slovakian Referee who handled the Ghana v Brazil match is being allowed to handle another match. FIFA should be up and coming and try to allow justice to prevail. Racism must be a thing of the past. Everybody has seen the light now; when we come to Christ, behold old things are gone. All the offside goals were witnessed and FIFA said nothing about them. Fair play, please. That Referee and his linesmen should not be allowed to officiate any match any longer. After allowing all the African teams to be robbed and eliminated, FIFA is now sacking referees. Why not during the 1st Round? Best teams can never emerge winners so long as bad officiating prevails. This is a disgrace to the soccer world. Cameroun was robbed sometime ago in the same competition. And it has just been the turn of Ghana. This is a stolen verdict. After the poor Africans investing a lot of money in football to train hard and prepare well, they come to the competition only to be robbed. God save world soccer. If FIFA does not want us to participate in their tournaments, they should say so, so that Africans will organize their own world tournament.

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6.

At 08:39 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

Laurence wrote:

I've just come back from Germany, where I went to the Germany v Sweden game in Munich. Along with 2 other english friends I sat in a stadium surrounded by around 60,000 passionate german fans. At no time was I intimidated or made to feel unwelcome. I find it hard to imagine that a german fan in an england world cup game, either home or away, would have felt similarly safe and welcome. I soon found myself supporting Germany, and happily let someone print the german flag on my cheek.

I then attended the fan zone in Stuttgart for the England v Ecuador game. The atmosphere was very different. Whilst the majority of england fans are open minded, there were noticable numbers of aggressive fans shouting racist chant after racist chant. My friend, who is an english asian, was even agressively confronted for not being english. Apparently when he said he was from London, he didn't sound english enough.

My point is that the germans were extremely welcoming and friendly throughout my stay, despite us not knowing a word of german. As a race we can learn a huge amount from the germans about how to behave and how to treat visitors. It previously didn't feature on my list of places I wanted to visit, but on the basis of this trip I am very keen to return.

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7.

At 08:45 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

Wickedchick wrote:

I too can see the point of this blog, and to be honest as a English lass living here in Germany I personally think it is wonderful to see the Germans taking pride in their flag, and waving it enthusiastically. I have also found it a wonderfully tolerant country welcoming all nations and their flags so why shouldn't they wave their own.

We all know what happened in the past and no one is asking anyone to forget, however without disrespecting anyone it is time to move on and for a lot of Germans they just have history to deal with as they had nothing to do with the war itself.

I love living here in Germany and I love the German people, so I could have told you all years ago that the Germans would provide us with a wonderful World Cup.

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8.

At 08:56 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

Mikesh wrote:

Sometimes I get the impression that most people out there still live in the past. They keep reminding us about our history while they attack other countries without even declaring war or bomb themselves to oblivion taking innocent people with them.

I'm proud to be a German. And although I consider the comment of applematt quite rude, I have to agree: Show your flag where ever you like... and don't ask anyone and don't feel bad about it. If they have a problem with that, it's their problem not yours.

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I think there's nothing to be confused or afraid about. What we're currently seeing in Germany is the outcome of a long process of thinking and finding a balance between the past and the present.

We've been taught a lot about Nazi Deutschland in school and how the immature nationalism of our ancestors was abused to put Hitler in power and start war with the rest of the world. Hence, ever since the end of WW-II waving a German flag was frowned upon because it seemed like getting back on the wrong road again - although the Federal Republic of Germany is nothing like the Third Reich.

Today, many people feel like showing our colours again because they've finally realised that for modern Germany there's nothing be ashamed of. We're living in a wonderful country full of wonderful and friendly people, that's it.

And that's why I disagree with Markus: we don't need to get open-minded because we already are and not just since the start of the World Cup.

Yet this tournament was the right medicine at the right time, which is why I wouldn't be too bothered if we dropped out against Argentina tomorrow - we've already won much more than a trophy.

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11.

At 09:42 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

Markus wrote:

Greg, I would be the most delighted person if this were all true. Of course, Germany has become a stable and tolerant democracy, probably the most pacific one in the western world - an achievement that has also been established because of the lack of nationalism that came with our Nazi heritage. But we do not live in paradise and should not lie to ourselves about this. We have more than enough intolerant, even racist countrymen and the party atmosphere during the world cup will also not last forever, as much as I am enjoying it. I really don't want to spoil the party and I'm wearing my 1954-jersey with pride, but I am also fond of a bit of modesty. You know of the headlines about open racism before the world cup. In this respect we do not differ a lot from our neighbours, I suppose.

I'm not saying that flag-waving has something to do with nationalism, all that I'm saying is that it is something some Germans find hard to get used to. It's fantastic to see so many people posting positive comments about their experiences in Germany and I am proud of our hospitality and the way our society has developed in many respects - but saying "I'm proud to be German" still doesn't roll off my tongue.

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I can completely understand where the writer of this blog is coming from.

I am half-German and have lived in the UK all my life (apart from two spells in Germany when my father was based there with the RAF) - and I have never once felt comfortable wearing the German colours in public or hanging out the flag. This has more to do with the reaction I would get rather than any lack of patriotism, which was instilled in me by my grandfather when I was younger - with the help of Messrs. Beckenbauer and Müller, of course.

I have a large black, red and gold flag that has spent most of ten years in a box; the last time it was waved outside of my home was when I was with a bunch of German supporters at Wembley during Euro '96. I work at a place which is fairly international which means that my wearing a German shirt is not a problem, but the last time I wore the German colours in public I felt the dagger-like stares, usually from pot-bellied passers-by. The same thing would never happen if I might choose to a Brazil, Italy or even a France shirt.

I really want to stick a German flag onto my car, but given that it is an Opel it pretty much stands out already; I am probably asking for a vandal to visit with my having a Bayern München minikit stuck inside a rear window.

I think for now I will have to stick with playing '54, 74, 90, 2006' with the window down!

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13.

At 09:53 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

Schweini 7 wrote:

Sascha (post 11):

I agree that you'd never have to ask a German bar owner if you wanted to display another flag. But in the UK things are markedly different, and bar owners know all to well that things can get out of hand - all it takes is a couple of goons to turn some friendly banter into a racist diatribe.

During Euro '96 I went to a pub to see the Germany v Croatia game wearing my Bayern shirt - only to have a bouncer tell me to zip up my jacket.

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15.

At 10:22 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

thibaud wrote:

Patriotism is not synonymous with nationalism. Patriotism is basically a love of the land of your fathers, equal emphasis on place and family, in other words, all those things that make up a home. It's a positive love of one's own that has nothing to do with one's feelings for other nations. Nationalism is more abstract, heavily political, and almost always implies a comparison with other nations (usually to their detriment). I see no nationalism connected with the World Cup.

More patriotism from the Germans would be a good thing. One of the reasons German nationalism has been so vicious is that German patriotism has always been so weak. German cultural achievements rarely celebrate place, community, family; instead they're usually universalist and abstract.

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16.

At 10:46 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

Bob wrote:

Interesting topic. My German friends have always been amazed at the frantic flag-waving and raucus chanting of USA! USA! Similar behavior in Deutschland would have been viewed with disapproval, if not ridicule. But then considering how my own country (USA) and the UK these days are waging illegal wars of aggression, are occupiers of sovereign nations, undermine democracy (e.g., Latin America) and overthrow governments repeatedly (Haiti), and more - it begs the question of *is it appropriate to flaunt and fly the stars & stripes or St. George's cross?*

My experience is that the German people are much more in tune to their history than Americans are, much more in tune to what their government is doing in their name. Ultimately I would say yes, be proud of the German flag. Fly it, wave it, and have fun for such a fantastic sporting event. I doubt it will cause Germans to lose their values and revert to past behaviors - or to behaviours that the US and UK are actively engaged in.

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17.

At 10:51 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

Betty Brandenburg wrote:

Completely agree with the view that it is safe to flaunt English colours in Germany, but not the other way 'round. I'm German, have lived in Hong Kong, China, the UK and am now living in the US (where, sadly, real football doesn't feature). The only time I really felt like a foreigner was when I lived and worked in London where not a week would go by without a Nazi or 66 worldcup joke. And yes, I think it's fabulous that the Germans show their colours, and in addition show what a hospitable place it is. The realisation that we have a sense of humour, too, might be just around the corner!

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Schweini 7, I could not imagin trying to enter a pub in England when there is a football game going on or when there are English fans around. I am not that mad. Not any more.

Years ago I worked and lived in London for some time. I learned my lesson during the first month. Some knive swinging English fans chased me down several streets when they figured out that I am German. My accent gave it away. The most disgusting thing was the reaction of the police when I reported it. As a ***** Kraut I should just shut up.

When my work contract was up for renewal I told my boss to stick it up his ****. He was the most vocal Nazi insult teller (he called it jokes, just good clean fun) in the office, setting the tone for my English colleauges.

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19.

At 11:02 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

stefano wrote:

i've been to england a few years ago on a school exchange and brought a germany jersey with me which i wanted to put on just for fun, but my exchange partner (chris from littlehampton, west sussex, great guy who made me an avid liverpool supporter) told me not to do so. and indeed, a few days later, some of my german friends who where with me on this exchange got beat up at school. and i had to hide in an empty classroom because 10 guys where waiting outside for me after they found out i'm german. i was just 15 years old and didn't even know there was so much hatred in england for the germans. it was a terrible experience for me and i will never return to england again.

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I do understand your concerncs, especially in East Germany is still a lot to do. Maybe that is due to the short democratic history and the manifold economical problems in that part of Germany.

But don't forget that it's all in all a very small minority we're talking about and should not blame the whole country for. I'm sure you're a perfectly nice person, as well as your friends and their friends. Most Germans are like this, except some idiots you've got in every other country too. In fact, there is as much racism in many other European countries. Just look at Poland, Italy or France (Le Pen), to name a few.

I'm proud to be German, because I do recognise our country and its people have much to offer and are playing a peaceful role in the world. Refusing to tark part in the war on Iraq is just one example I'm very happy about.

As for the flag-waving, our press have been debating a lot whether this is a new patriotism or nationalism, but actually it's neither - it's apolitical in every sense. The people are just happy about having regained some confidence and about giving our visitors are warm welcome.

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22.

At 11:22 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

Schweini 7 wrote:

Armin, Stefano - those are horrible stories. I haven't been on the end of as much of the abuse as having grown up here I speak English with an very English accent - but as soon as the subject of football comes up one can often sense the sneery attitude.

What makes matters worse is that I am also half Asian - which of course takes the snide comments to a whole new level, usually something about my not being 'Aryan' enough, or something equally ridiculous. Some people over here still have no idea that Germany is a pretty diverse country, and that not everyone who wears the German shirt is some chisel-chinned Nazi warrior who wishes to invade Poland.

In fact when I went on holiday to Poland for three weeks back in 2000 I had my then work colleagues talking about my only going there to 'invade'. They made it out to be a joke but I sensed some real malice there. The Poles, meanwhile, were fantastic.

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First of all, thanks to all the English folks posting the nice comments about my country. Being 40 now, I'm the first generation in my family who did not live during the war (even so my parents were little kids when the war ended). That said I see a major change with this years World Cup compared to any earlier major events. For the first time many people are waving German flags. And in the stadium, public viewing areas and stadiums they actually get up and sing along the national anthem. Having lived in the US for the last 4 years I should have gotten used to this, but for whatever reason when I heard this the first time in Germany, it gave me the chills. Why? Well, we were always reminded of our past. In school and also in every day life. We were always told to never forget what happened. And because our parents and grandparents could remember who the Nazi regime was abusing patriotism to turn it into nationalism, they were not comfortable with any kind of patriotic display. However, now the next generation is there and they are more relaxed about it and I think that's why it comes to them much easier. And actually, I like it. After that first chill I mentioned above, I'm now also standing up and singing along. I also did put a flag on my car and for tomorrow I bought a huge flag to drape it around me and afterwards display it in the auto corso when we drive around honking. Like the Italians, Brazilians and all the others just having fun here. And I actually like it this way, because this is not in any way nationalism. You just have to support your team and as long as you do so in a tolerant way, it's perfect. Sadly, I also had some of the experiences people mentioned above with English fans. Most of them are great and lots of fun to hang around with, but there is a handful who is very intolerant and gets quite rowdy if they see supporters of other countries. That's sad, because it spoils some of the fun. And I still don't get why some (usually the same) English fans have to make everything here about their team kicking the German team's ass etc. Honestly, I don't care if England wins and Germany loses. If they deserve it, fine with me. Right now, I think only two teams showed the kind of football I would reward with the Cup: Germany and Argentina. Too bad that they already meet tomorrow. This would have been worth a final. But if Argentina wins, I'll still celebrate. I'll celebrate a great German team that went in the tournament as laughed upon underdog and showed the enthusiastic and enjoyable kind of football we wanted to see. I'll celebrate the fact that we organized this World Cup in a far better way than I would have expected. I'll celebrate the fact that the German people really got it and were good hosts so far (and hopefully til the end) trying to really have "the world as guests of friends". And finally I'll celebrate the fact that we can finally have a patriotism in this country without it turning into a nationalism and that we can be relaxed about it. So, yes, tomorrow I'll celebrate... with a good German beer... or a Guiness... or whatever else tastes good, as long as it's not the official beer sponsor... :-)
Damn, did I really write that much? :-)

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25.

At 11:41 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

stu wrote:

I think its excellent that the german people are finally getting comfortable displaying their national flag with pride. And pride is certainly something they should be feeling for the way they have put on this world cup, and made people from all over the world welcome.

I'm saddened by the stories of english fans persisting the stereotypes that many have worked so hard to eradicate. I am a passionate supporter of my national football team, but not always a passionate supporter of my nation. I can only hope that as the years go by these bigoted idiots get fewer and fewer.

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26.

At 11:51 PM on 29 Jun 2006,

Mark Hillard wrote:

I read with shame the contribution from Stefano, who had such an awful experience in England on a school exchange. As a child I had two friends who had German heritage and despite the experience that Stefano had I can not recall any physical attacks on these two boys. Both of them were the subject of occasional verbal jibes, but seemed not to be affected by this, in fact they both showed great pride in their "germanic" lineage and often wore german national shirts. One was an exceptional soccer player, who got the tag "the german Kenny Dalglish" on our school soccer team. I remember them both fondly and cannot really identify with the idea that Germans were hated by the English. Perhaps if Stefano had visited Liverpool instead of Littlehampton, he would have a differnt view today, plus he could have dropped into Anfield to see the greatest team of our time!
The friendly Liverpool welcome is still on offer if you want to give us another try....

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@stu: Most of the English fans here have been excellent. It's just a few idiots, but I guess you can find them in any country. The English fans definitely behave much better than let's say 10 years ago. So I guess what you hope for is already happening.

@Armin: That's a sad story. I must have been lucky then. During the 98 Cup I was in London and I entered a pub to watch an England game in an authentic athmosphere. It was actually great. Had no problems. On the other hand, I guess nobody realized I was German. But I also never had any problems anywhere else. Question is, was I lucky or were you just unlucky...

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29.

At 12:56 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Markus wrote:

The stories of the Germans having problems in England take me by surprise. I have been to England and especially London at least once (most likely more often) in the last 15 years and I have never experienced any of these things.

Of course, when it comes to football we are the "Huns" who use their "panzers" to start a "blitzkrieg" or so, but I always considered this to be just banter. I had the most marvellous experiences in pubs celebrating with supporters of West Ham or Leyton Orient (thank you guys!) respectively and I even survived Millwall without scratches. English people have been just fine and I am planning to return often in the next 15 years.

Still, what is true is that the "automatic" jokes about the Germans get kind of annoying after a while. Don't mistake this for a lack of humour, just imagine that you would have to hear the same joke over and over again.

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30.

At 01:06 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Ben LFC wrote:

Last summer i spent four weeks in Essen, and i was lucky enough to go to a footy match. I wore my Liverpool top and scarf with pride (as ever!), and i was amazed at how the germans reacted - they were congratulating me on our champions league win, and they were singing you'll never walk alone on the way into the stadium. I doubt that would happen in england somehow...

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Oh yes, English people have been nice so far. Stuttgart really was an exception, which nobody should mind. Therefore we have the police around, no problem with this.

I spoke to friend, he's living in Frankfurt, were England played in the first week. At first they were afraid to go even on the streets. He's living right in the city and English supporters were everywhere. Until they phoned with another friend who was in spite of all ignorant enough to go to a fanfest and he said everything's fine.

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Im in Germany for the World Cup and have been to 2 games so far. When I see a German Flag/Scarf the images that come to me as of a Football team. I really do.

Im english and my best friend is a film maker from the Bavarian mountains whose father was executed by Hitler. His father was a Baron, and their family home was next to the eagles nest!

He lives in England now and we have spent many nights talking about how Germans are perceived after the terrible things of world war 11. Racism is something that slips of the tongue quite easily in some areas. Germans are not really liked due to our parents _ Yet I agree with many above comments that how friendly and co-optive they are in all towns across Germany. Ever tried to ask directions in France?!

Since meeting my mate I have met many more Germans over the year's and have been saddened by the common view held by joe blogs. Germans I know are cool, have sense of humor know how to party and have very big hearts, more so than many of my english friends. Everywhere I have traveled to in germany during the world cup on trains,buses normal germans are so happy to talk to you help you suggest best beers and have fun. Its such a buzz, maybe the beer is drugged?!

I see the history and the pain of the modern german on its terrible past and pleased to see all getting flags out supporting the football team and would also like to see Germany win the world cup.

What is a problem is the german flags on sticks _ after the games many are jumping around and my mate go a pole just under his eye!

Lets forget the past and focus on the final stages of the world cup .. where you have France coming from no where , Brazil hit by gossip of fighting among themselves --
Heres to properly the best World Cup ever staged!

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I think its great that all you Germans living in England, and all teh English living in Germany get the point of the blog.

But for the rest of us like Applemat, it wasnt very clear, and was badly written. It started as a "can a German fan wave her flag in England" blog (although with a strong suggestion suggesting that being German in England was like being a leper - hence all the "Bad English fans" replys) and turned into something about German nationalism, without any context or explanation.

As for the first issue, the barman had no problem with it (nor should he) and no-one at the pub minded either. Might I suggest that maybe Kate shouldnt be so uptight, as the rest of us couldnt care less.

AS for the second - maybe a bit of background to explain the issue? So we dont have to wait for posts that are better than the blog.

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35.

At 05:00 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Richard Harrison wrote:

Dom, for your first point. Unfortunately if somebody went into a pub with a German shirt in a pub in the centre of my home town (Hemel Hempstead) during an England game I wouldn't put much on their chances. This is because our press still insists on whipping up rampant nationlism whenever England are in a tournament and try to excuse it by saying they are being patriotic. Until the tabloids learn to control themselves and realise that people are allowed to come from another country it will be the same. Luckily it hasn't got as bad as 1996 but if we play Germany in the final it will.

I follow Arsenal around Europe and one of my favourite trips was when I went to Munich last year. I was in a massive beer hall getting nicely drunk chatting about the upcoming game with some Germans that couldn't speak English while my German makes Basil Fawlty's look good. Somehow we made ourselves understood and had a great time. Pity we lost really...

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36.

At 05:15 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

rolf niebergall wrote:

ps: i do not own a german flag only an
american flag wich i wil raise on the fourth of july, does it make me a traitor to the british cause? even your
primeminister blair did not think so
when he was in washington!

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37.

At 05:17 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

rolf niebergall wrote:

i was born in germany and i am living now
for more than 41 years in the usa. i
became a us citizen 2 weeks ago. what does it make me? i am a german american
but realy i am an european american. the
history between usa and england was not
always that great but past is past. i
would say, before the britisch people
wave the argentinian flag they should
wave the german flag. i guess, i have the
right to say that. my wife is from southamerica, peru. i like europe very
much but also the rest of the world.

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38.

At 05:18 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Tanja wrote:

I lived in London for three years and I never had any problems for being German. Of course I got all the Nazi comments, goose stepping and whatnot as well, but I was never offended by that.
I found the English obsession with the war quite funny really. Is there any other country who's national identity is based on wars and football? Don't think so! That's what makes England unique. I like it!

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39.

At 06:23 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Chris wrote:

Partyotism is a word I've heard here describing the feeling and its very apt. I've been living here since 1967 and love the place especially the openmindness and lack of Nationalism. When suddenly on the first day of the World Cup all the flags appeared on houses and cars it was a bit of a surprise but its all part of the atmosphere and I'm loving it. Please let us have a German : England final with England winning on penaltys, I've got 35 years of banter to give back.

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40.

At 06:49 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

niall wrote:

i was in berlin just before the world cup started and it was my first visit there. I was witness to a stereotypical neo nazi one day on the s-bahn, he was spouting garbage about hitler and napoleon and stalin. All of his bile was in english which made me think that these morons probably feel more affinity with england and its overtly aggresive patriotism than they do with their own country's more reserved outlook. I found the german attitude towards their history (don't forget your mistakes but don't let them bog you down) very refreshing and if the same outlook is carried over to this new found patriotism i think it can only be a good thing. we in the u.k. should take notice. our patriotism is becoming dangerously close to nationalism and i feel very uneasy about it. i'm scottish by the way and it's every bit as bad north of the border as it is south, we just dont have the good football team to go with it.

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41.

At 07:44 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

ali wrote:

I'm turkish living in Germany for 5 years. I would love to wave a German flag if I hadn't seen many German nationalists having it waving in their gardens as a symbol of their far-right thoughts. I've always been upset about this attitude as well as many of my German friends.
Now, I believe, real German people are giving back the real value of their flag by waving it as a symbol of a friendly country who holds a great world cup organisation.
I won't be here, but I would love to see all the foreigners -without hesitation- carrying a German flag with it's real meaning on the next world cup...

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42.

At 09:11 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Mike wrote:

As a canadian living in Frankfurt for the past 10 years, i was impressed seeing how germans as a whole come to terms with their history. every nation has skeletons in their closets (albeit, germany's is still quite recent and particularly nasty), but overall they address that quite well compared to others. i feel sorry for them that this "flag waving" is such an issue when it really shouldn't be. they're doing a great job as hosts and the team is playing strong and with passion (can't say the same for the english), yet they constantly get ribbed for events that are way out of context. what i hear from many english speaks more negative things about them than the germans. they focus so much on those events as if they are frozen in time, not realizing how the world has changed in germany or elsewhere. i'm sure this just a minority, but they're quite vocal. let the germans have they're fun and pride and finally show it. there's been a lot of good things coming from here since the war. from my experience, its more democratic and open minded here than the united states (i've never been to england, can't say anything there)!

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43.

At 10:15 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Tako wrote:

I'm a finn and I always support Germany in football as we don't have a "proper" football team of our own (yet). I NEVER support Germany in Formula One though...oh wait, but I support Mercedes-Benz in Formula One...that's a german team huh?

So what am I blabbering about then? Well to me Germany is a good show case democracy of the modern world. It's sad that the actions of a few petty criminals (Adolf & Co) should still affect the german people, but OK OK, WWII was quite big after all. But let's try to focus on the good things about Germany, shall we? I recommend everyone to go there and check it out. You'll like the people, you'll find autobahn quite interesting (you just GOTTA bring a fast car), and the food isn't that terrible at all...well if it is you can always try out their beer. There's so many brands and some of them are like a thousand years old.

As for the the flag waving...well what's the problem, really? They're not waving the swastika and shouting heil heil are they? It's a BIG difference if you compare it to the flag waving 70 years ago. In fact, you can't compare it. It's two totally separate things.

There's plenty of other places to pontificate on the current state of the world. Use them. This is about football.

Let's try to have some fun, eh? If y'all want to talk about hardships, well, as an ex-pat UK bloke living in the US (let's not even go there, ok?) let's just say my Spanish has improved considerably over the past few weeks as the only way I can get decent coverage is via Univision.

Here's raising a pint of decent micro-brew beer to everyone involved and enjoying the World Cup.

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46.

At 10:29 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

DaveL wrote:

I think everybody who has posted about fans wearing German shirts in this country not being well received is unfortunately correct. I see nothing wrong with showing pride in your country and respecting other people's thoughts. Again unfortunately I dont think that is a particularly strong point of us Brits.

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47.

At 10:36 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

James Stafford wrote:

I'm a proud and patriotic scot, married to an English lady, one son born in England and another born in the Isle of Man.I haven't lived in Scotland for twenty odd years but am always passionate about my country.
Tomorrow I will join my English friends to support the English team (although I may wear my kilt, in support of Andy Murray you understand). We are not all claymore waving anglophobes.... Good luck England

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48.

At 10:40 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

S wrote:

Personally I feel quite uncomfortable with the St. George's flag. This is probably irrational, but patriotism turns to nationalism and xenophobia far too easily with English football 'fans'. Indeed many of them don't seem to understand the difference.

I hate watching England with a large group of English supporters, why do I have to listen to 'ten German bombers', the Dambusters theme, the national anthem (I have no allegiance to the Queen ffs!). It's embarrassing. The tabloid press has a lot to answer for.

I'm English, was born in and have lived in Germany, support England but prefer to do it without wearing the colours.

Also want to say have been out to see a couple matches this time and Germany has done a great job organising this World Cup.

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49.

At 10:43 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Kevin T wrote:

In the early nineties I stayed with an English friend who lived and worked in southern Bavaria. I was greeted fantastically well by all his German friends so I bought the German national football shirt to wear while there. Everyone was amazed that I had done this as even they would not walk the streets of their own town in one which quite shocked me. I visited many places wearing my new shirt and was always looked at with suspicion until people realised I was English (and so probably eccentric). I found it sad at the time that the German people could not express their pride in their country so I am glad that they can now. My best wishes to Germany and its wonderful people (until the final when I hope Rooney scores a hat trick against them).

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50.

At 10:47 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Heidi wrote:

I am a German, but study in England at the moment. I never really engaged with English football fans, since they are not such a big topic for Germans. However, here in England I realised that there is quite a strong rivalry towards Germany. The match against Costa Rica I watched in a Pub. The pub was quite well decorated with all the flags of the participating nations, except one nation: Germany. From my English friends I got the friendly advice not to go with a German flag to the city centre watching a match on a big screen. First I thought it's a joke. But that is the reality here.
Nevertheless, I have to say that those English people I know are quite neutral and open minded. Therefore, it is always dangerous to generalise things.

I just hope that all the English fans who are in Germany now will contribute to a changing attitude in England.

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51.

At 10:58 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Swabian Blade wrote:

As has been highlighted by this World Cup, sport and football in particular should be a vehicle to bring people together, not divide. What is wrong with fans of each country flying their flags and supporting their teams, wherever they may be or whoever they many be. Why the animosity towards those that do? It should not be like that.

I have many friends in Germany and have spent many great times there watching football at both club and international level, as such I have a German flag flying whenever the national team is playing. It flies as a tribute to my friends.

When England are playing I have my English flag and to add to that I am also flying a Ukrainian flag too in support of my wife's team.

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52.

At 10:59 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

AndyK wrote:

Why should waving a flag but such a big issue, arn't we now in 2006!!!Isn't it about time people moved on and stopped living in the past. I am not saying forget what happened in the past, but rather lets move on from it. Germany and England are now allies (or was the last time I checked!!!) which means that some people, some where realised that you cannot stay enemies forever. I am English and watching the world cup in Frankfurt, and I have been supporting both Germany and England, and yes I have been waving the German flag, along side hundreds of German people and talking to people from many different nations without anything of the past being mentioned. Surely the issues should not be about whether a flag can be waved but more that people are not prepared to let others live their lives. Football is about the coming together of multi nations and enjoying something that we all have in common, it is not about raging some war because someone is froma different country. Now I know that some people are narrow minded aqnd will look for an excuse to cause otehrs harm, but that's all it is... an excuse. The majority of people will be happy to see you wave your flag, so go ahead and take your flag to the England v German final, I'll take both my England and German flags with me and wave them both in support if what will be a fantastic football game and nothing else!!!

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53.

At 11:36 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Norbert wrote:

Of course many Germans have been good hosts this world cup (and i'm glad even most of the most ignorant english supporters seem to have realised this). And of course most Germans are not remotely the people british tabloids still suggest. What did you expect? But let's speak of the topic of patriotism and nationalism.

I'm German and 30 years now. I've never felt the need to be patriotic or something (and growing up under the leadership of Helmut Kohl did not help much). I know patriotism works fine in other countries, and I respect that. But I feel uncomfortable with all these people waving their german flags.

Don't get me wrong, I like my country. It took me some travels abroad to make out a few things I really might miss outside Germany (and I'm moving to Manchester in a few weeks to live along all the great Northerners).

There were many things politically Germany can be proud of: the rheinisch capitalism for example, where managers cared for their workers. The huge social system. All these things are reduced now by reforms and many Germans lose out. These reforms might not hit as hard as Thatcherism did in it's early days, but many feel it's unfair. Many people now feel excluded.

Although Germany is an open-minded society, minorities still have a bad stand in politics. Every year there is a new discussion that foreigners are not integrated enough into society (and politicians blame foreigners to score points with the voters). Gay marriage was a long debate here, and now gays and lesbians can marry and are (financially) responsible for each other, but still don't get the tax rights heterosexuals get. Germany was the last state in Europe to enact anti-discrimination legislation after a long debate. Doing something for minorities seems to be a annoying duty rather than something politicians do by heart. There are more examples where the urban German society has modern and social views and politicians and the rural folks lack behind.

So many people feel excluded for various reasons - and this flag-waving is something for the majority. It is uncritical and leaves all the people that will not join the shallow joy as grumpy people. Many fear the flag-waving as indication that many people will care less about others in the future.

Of course this is exaggerated but I think this is one of the reasons some people are unhappy with the flag-waving. The other reason is that of Germany's past. While I do not feel responsible or guilty about what happend 60 years ago, I take pride in the idea that we Germans have the collective responsibility that no such thing happens ever again. Many like me fear that this new patriotism is an indication that this view that might get lost in the coming generations.

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54.

At 11:40 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Marcus wrote:

Hi, I am Marcus, I am German and living on Mallorca. I would like to say some tings about the English fans around here. You can really visit every pub and have a great time with the English people. Last year my wife and me were watching the Champions League final in an English pub and it was a really great time. First, when the people get aware that we were Germans they were a little bit chary. But as time goes by we had great conversations (without Nazi jokes) and a great party. We left the pub with with Liverpool Jerseys which were presented us by people from the pub. They went home wtihout shirts. Of course there had been some idiots who wanted us to get us out of the pub, and trying to start a fight everytime I went to the toilet, but the owner of the bar and the other people throw THEM ot of the pub. That was really great.
For the World Cup we are wearing the German flag and even the Spanish flag on our car because of respect for the fine Spanish people around here which party with the English, German, Netherland people. Thanks to all of you celebrating a great event in Germany and all around the world!

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55.

At 11:46 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Eddie wrote:

Interesting story I can't believe your friend actually asked if you could wave your flag, I've seen flags from numerous countries being waved, flown on cars and hung out windows including many from my own country Ireland and we didn't even qualify this time. During the last world cup I and many others walked around central London in all our regalia, shirts, big hats and tri-colours draped over our backs and not one person said a bad word to us in fact we had loads of people come up to us and talk about the games or in most case whinge about how England were playing, does that sound familiar? We of course had Germany in our group in 2002 and we met quiet a few Germans but strangely not many with flags and youre story reminded me of that. I hope Germany win the world cup because come september I and about 15-25,000 more Irish will be pitching up in Stuttgart for the Euro qualifier against Germany and it would be great if by then we were playing the world champions and beating them of course! Good luck and fly your flag with pride!

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56.

At 11:50 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

Kate wrote:

I'm the Kate that Antje writes about in this article and just wanted to clear something up (I think Antje's memory was a bit blurred by all the beer we'd drunk!) When Antje asked me if she should get her german flag out what I actually said was 'of course you should' - Antje being Antje she didn't want to offend anyone or cause any trouble - I know the bar is fan friendly for supporters from every nation, it's one of the reasons I go there. When she said to me 'are you sure?' we were on our way up to the bar for more beer so I said to the manager 'you don't mind if she gets her german flag out do you?' just to reassure her. I knew there wouldn't be a problem, I just wanted to put her mind at rest. And of course there wasn't a problem. Living in London, I'm lucky, and so's Antje, but I know it's a bubble compared to the rest of England. The city is more diverse on a number of levels and, as a result, more tolerant. I just wish more germans (and turks, poles, serbs, ghananians etc) would be able to fly their flag with pride across the whole country. Sadly I know this isn't the case. But I also wish as an England fan, I could, because our flag isn't that welcome either.

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57.

At 11:56 AM on 30 Jun 2006,

adrian wrote:

I agree with S., in that I find flag waving for any country quite uncomfortable; the degree of discomfort irrationally increasing with the size of the country - I guess the USA tops the list. That Germans have started to wave flags is in my opinion no worse than the excessive flag waving seen across England. Though obviously it will generate more discussion - there has been much debate amongst my colleagues and friends here in Berlin (where I live and work) with no clear outcome. Some people take my viewpoint, whilst others have their cars covered in flags. What is the answer? If we are to discourage flag waving and the tribalism associated with it, then the next step surely is to discourage the playing of international team sports whether it be football, baseball, cricket, rugby etc, which simply will not happen. So it looks like flag waving is here to stay. On the plus side, at least it clearly identifies peoples’ opinions.

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59.

At 12:08 PM on 30 Jun 2006,

Jorg wrote:

Kraut of order? I am a German living in London for ten years. Sadly I cannot fly the German flag from our car anymore as a young Englishman decided to rip it off last week - in daylight and when the car was parked on my driveway in South West London. My 7 year old daughter was really upset and does not understand why he did it. What do you tell her? It does not bother me to get stick for being German but my two older daughters have been victims of German bashing as well, mostly on the bus where other children can identify them as Germans as they don't wear school uniforms. Our English friends feel appalled by this and it is hard too believe how you can let it pass as acceptable humour when 10 year old girls are greeted with Nazi salutes. It is worst around big football games. When England won 5:1 in Munich I thought that things turned to the better as it felt that many English got rid of their minority complex they feel towards Germany in football. But the flag ripping incident reminded me that some people here are still overly nationalistic. At least the thug left us the English flag on the car which still is flying from the other window.

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60.

At 12:11 PM on 30 Jun 2006,

Ian Humphries wrote:

As an English man living in Ireland, i can fully appreciate the difficulties ex-pats have all over the world. For Euro 2004 i was living in Amsterdam and had no qualms about wearing my England shirt and hanging the St George flag from my balcony. However, the situation in Ireland is different - all the history between the two countries is similar in ways to what Antje is talking about between England and Germany. Whilst i have no problem with telling people i am English, talking about my desire for England to win and litening to all the jokes and all the people telling me they hope England lose, i would still be reticent about wearing my shirt outside my own house - and i have so far watched all the England games at home. Perhaps i am being slightly paranoid, and allowing the minority of idiots to give every other person here a bad name? Perhaps one day i will test my theory and wear my shirt and flag to the pub for a game - but not yet (my flights are booked for the final weekend to go back to Blighty wear i will be able to wear my shirt with pride without any (justified or probably not)fear of recrimination.

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These celebrating Germans have managed to neither invade a neighbour nor start war for over 60 years now.
In fact, they didn't even participate in anyone else's war lately.

Therefore, I am happy for the German people to celebrate themselves in these warm, sunny days of June 2006. They have every right to right now, and they can actually be proud of themselves for this wonderful global World Cup Party. And if waving German flags is part of this new "partyotism", then so be it -- no harm in it that I can see.

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62.

At 12:34 PM on 30 Jun 2006,

Schweini 7 wrote:

Sam Crow:

The painting of England as a thug's paradise is not really the intention - most people are fine, it's just the very vocal minority who go beyond the call of duty in trying to assert their Englishness - the sort of primitive imbecile who would give Nazi salutes to a ten year old girl or tear a flag from a car. The presence of these people, particularly in a crowd, do make one feel ever so slightly uncomfortable.

Incidentally, when I was in Ireland as soon the locals saw my Germany shirt it was free beers all 'round. So I guess it's a case of swings and roundabouts.

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64.

At 12:44 PM on 30 Jun 2006,

Will wrote:

While born in Ireland, my grandfather was German and I have always been interested in and proud of my german heritage.
However when I worked for a time in England I was perhaps between a rock and a hard place.
It was the early to mid 90's and a time of increased tensions between the UK and Ireland (due to terrorism) and perhaps the peak of anti-german feeling (at least since the war) following Englands dismissal at Italia 90.
I remember the UK press' handling of the the run up and aftermath of the German win. The pictures of Stuart pierce with a tommy-helmet superimposed declaring war on the Krauts (the Sun was a big culprit there).
Basically it was a media-led campaign which ratcheted up tensions and made even having the accent a 'crime' to the yobs who lapped up the propaganda. It validated their hated and bigotry. While the people I worked with were very nice, I too found wearing a German top was NOT ON. I was asked to leave pubs twice, once by the barman, who didn't want any trouble and once by an england fan who said if I stayed he couldn't be held responsible for what might happen, saying he would keep his buddies at bay as long as I left immediately.

On the other hand, I was at the infamous Landsowne Road 'friendly' match called off due to crowd trouble, and while blame can be apportioned on both sides, I think football still brings out the worst in some normally reasonable people.

I agree with the Patriotism v Nationalism debate but for some the line is blurred if not gone completely.

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I'm an Englishman through and through. I live and work in Munich, married a local girl and, have kids who are half-half.

I'm sick of returning to England to meet old acquaintances who seem stuck in their dumbed-down, chav pasts. The Germans have moved on. I suggest the English consider this as an option.

I get a lot of stick from German friends and colleagues about the England team's performance, and how Germany will win the World Cup. But, it's all friendly, football related tease and banter.

Obviously, today I will be supporting Slovakia, and hoping that their representative can beat a week-old Russian record for the number of yellow and red cards. I cannot support either Germany or Argentina, and only for footballing reasons. If a certain severed Argentinian hand was on display on a silver platter in London, I am sure I could support Argentina. Germany has no chance of my support because of Franz Beckenbauer and the ridiculious political influence he has to use my tax monies for his own dreams, while us locals have very slim chances of seeing a World Cup match in our local stadium.

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Perhaps now is the time to stop actually believing a single word printed by The Sun?

As a Liverpool fan, I distinctly remember what that foul rag printed in the aftermath of the Hillsbrough tragedy and I, along with the vast majority of Liverpool fans, have shunned the so-called 'Peoples' Paper' ever since.

A lot of people may find life is a better place without rubbish like that on the newsstands.

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67.

At 12:58 PM on 30 Jun 2006,

David wrote:

As an Englishman working in Germany for the past eight months, in my experience the Germans are nothing like the stereotypical English portrayal of them. They are warm, friendly, very tolerant and ,yes, they have a good sense of humour. The German flag waving is fantastic and to be encouraged. As several other contributors have pointed out, it is a mistake to confuse genuine and heartfelt patriotism with nationalsim. I am saddened and ambarassed by the experiences that some of the German contributors have had in England and can only hope that the fantastic way in which Germany has hosted this competition goes some way to destroying the ludicrous German stereotyping that persists in England.

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68.

At 01:15 PM on 30 Jun 2006,

Will wrote:

Sam

Its me again the Irish/German. I am an avid Liverpool fan and have been since I was wee 'un and I agree whole-heartedly about the bile which was in the Sun in the aftermath of Hillsborough. No respect for the truth or the dead, but then that doesn't sell papers. On that morning 96 people went to support their heroes, and never came home, it certainly puts the subject of this blog into perspective.

I lived in Liverpool for some time and attended many home games at Anfield. I always found the people there to be very welcoming and not threatening. I think it is the fact that the Club & city has had it's share of tragedy, Heysel, Hillsboro etc. and are aware that it's a game we all love, but it is only a game, and people need to 'live' outside the stadia so why not try to get on?

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69.

At 01:15 PM on 30 Jun 2006,

Nicolas Schall wrote:

See this song about "Germans" from two popular german comedians called "Mundstuhl" and you realise, that we Germans at last realised, that Germany is one nation among a lot of other nations and we don't have to be ashamed for our identity. We must never forget what our ancestors did, but in fact this terrible 12 years can't destroy our over 1000 years old history and all the good things to come along with. Nationalism finishs up a blind alley, but this fantastic wave in Germany nothing has to do with nationalism, but with a open-minded feeling of beeing a part of the nations of the world!

"We're Germans - Football we play better than you!
We're Germans - Hope you like Germans too!"

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70.

At 01:53 PM on 30 Jun 2006,

Martin wrote:

Well i'm of the opinion that despite a few stupid skirmishes from drunk fans British views on Germany is simply only positive.
The flag and wearing the colours is interesting, comparisons could be made with Japan. The imperial risng sun was banned (the one with the sun rays) and replaced in effect by the single sun we know today. And there is never any question that the Japanese have a problem with wearing the colors.
Maybe Germans should start to take a little more pride in their nation, which as stated despite a large stain has enriched the world and Anglo Saxon world with its culture. I'm very proud to be English so I have flags, St George crosses everywhere but I would never dream of having the union flag, to me it represents a point in history .Our St George Cross is the future and that is the way Germans should feel about their flags etc

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Now that we can all agree that flag-waving is O.K. for Germans, I am happy to play the part of the grouch in this debate. Here are my provocative propositions if you care:

The real test for "Cool Germania" is tonight. How will be the mood should we loose the match against Argentina? Hopefully, we are going to carry on with the party just the same.

This world cup brings to light some intriguing traits in our German national character. I can't find the right word to describe it but it goes like this "Are we not the most wonderful hosts on earth? Look we have not even been rude for the last three weeks. Please say we are a nice people!" It doesn't need a psychologist but this is not really a sign of relaxed self-confidence. Maybe it's something between self-delusion and navel-gazing.

I don't mean to spoil the fun but like with any media-hype, after a while the sheer stupidity gets on ones nerves. Dear English and other non-German readers, in case you didn't know but it has already been ruled that Germany simply CANNOT loose the Argentina match. Please be our guest but be a modest guest- the Cup is reserved for the hosts.

Whether someone minds somebody else's flagwaving has usually more to do with his/her education than with nationality. I am sorry to disappoint all my merry compatriots who fancy our country to be near paradise. Racists are very much alive and kicking. To end on a positive note: It has been written elsewhere that German neonazis are very confused these days: Since they believe to be the true gate keepers of the nation they cannot agree among themselves if it's OK to join the party...

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Waving flag and wearing T- shirt has long since been a part of the game. Football has got its universal appeal and flag, jersey has been a part of its culture. So, there should not have any problem to wave flag of any team that one supports. Flag and jersey make the tournament more colorful and speed up the joy of the fan.
Here in Bangladesh, wearing
shirts, tshirts and even shoes and sandals on the design of world cup team
flags have become the latest craze for the young generation.

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Very true! One reason why German nationalism has always been so vicious is because patriotism has always been so weak.

Reason for that, however, is that up until 1871 there was no German nation. There was Bavaria, Prussia, Nassau and all of the other kingdoms, principalities etc. Right after unification in 1871 it became the German Reich under the two Kaisers William I and II. Nationalism was enforced and turned into extremism which consquently lead into WWI.

After the war the country was broken, feelings for the country were weak to gone completely. The Versailles treaty imposed shame and an inferiority complex on the nation and when this brown beast from Austria came over (not Bruno, the bear... the other one) to tell people he would restore the country, pride and get Germany back to where it belongs of course people supported him. So once again instead of patriotism nationalism took over - eventually leading to WWII.

After that war once again the country lay down in pieces. The reason no new nationalism built up is because the allies stayed in the country for some time, helping at least West Germany to become one nation. Full soverignty wasn't restored until reunification of East and West Germany in 1990.

16 years later I think it's perfectly fine to be proud to be German. Look what we've made out of this country, this mess. We're one economically very strong, most environment conscious, almost pacifist nation. If it wasn't for Germany and her post-war chancellors the EU would not be as far as it is today. We wouldn't have a single (strong) currency. Etc. Etc.

And just compare those bloodthirsty war anthems of other countries with these really peaceful and democratic lyrics of the German anthem:

"Unity and justice and freedom
For the German fatherland;
This let us all pursue,
Brotherly with heart and hand.
Unity and justice and freedom
Are the pledge of happiness.
|: Prosper in this fortune's blessing,
Prosper, German fatherland. :|"

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I have to thank Rolf Habich (#75) for reminding me of our other peculiarities, which I find so amusing:

1. As a proper German you must always deliver a thorough historic survey to make a simple point. As a rule, always start with the 19th century to explain why this is a great world cup! No, actually, start with the Romans!

2. If, after having lived through the doctoral thesis, you're still unconvinced that we Germans are the greatest, albeit entirely misunderstood, race, you must be either (a) malicious, (b)dumb or (c) a member of the English "lower classes".

Come on, they don't have to love us! The English fans would love to see the German team being whipped tonight, and why shouldn't they. No sport without some good rivalry...

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76.

At 03:38 PM on 30 Jun 2006,

Antje wrote:

Hi, it’s Antje again. I am absolutely amazed by the amount and variety of comments that have been posted. It’s an interesting read.
Thank you to Kate, who actually put the story with the bar owner right (comment 57). I could not remember all the detail.

Please remember it’s my personal story and not to be generalised for every German in London or the UK. I have met many fantastic people here and it’s been great. Many replies show the ambivalence other Germans have towards patriotism. I also like the accounts of English people who live or have lived in Germany. I have actually never had a bad experience in the UK which was caused by me being German. It’s more that I do not want to give any reason to get into such troubles in the first place.

I have seen a feature on BBC2 Newsnight last night about how East Germany is missing out on the World Cup. Leipzig is the only World Cup city in the East, if you count in that the Olympic stadium in Berlin is actually in West Berlin. Most of the teams have or had their training camps and hotels in the West and therefore most profits are made there. This would add a whole new dimension to the already complex discussion but I thought it interesting enough to post.

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I have just made a trip this morning into the centre of Munich in southern Germany to be able to give a first hand comment. Tonight Germany plays Argentina.

All the centre of Munich is covered in flags, not just German flags but all flags. In the foreign (Turkish) shopping area there are German, English, French, Italian, Japanese, Bavarian state..... You name it is there.
Most of the shop assistants are wearing German football shirts. On the train coming back I noted the school children were wearing football shirts. Not just German, any football shirt. One little boy was waving an Argentinian flag. Could this be dangerous for him?

This is a very unusual state of affairs. The only flag I have seen a German wave is a Ferrari flag at Formula 1. Germans do not do it because it is not part of the culture (yet) and nothing to do with WW2 (that was 60 years ago). Why has it now come about?

As is often the case, many events have come together to cause this to occurred. There is no easy answer as Antje Schroeder (the author of the article) implies.

1. Germany is in a heat wave and has had the hottest June since 1976. Often June is cold and wet. It is not fun to wave a flag in the rain. Further Germany has had the longest winter since 1962. It was under 0 degC for nearly 6 months. May was cold. Everyone has been desperate to be able to put on summer cloths. Football is an open air sport.

2. Germany is emerging from ten years of economic stagnation. The June unemployment figures are still bad (4.4M unemployed) but 383,000 less than last June. A mild celebration is in order.

3. The lame duck government of the socialists has been replace last year by a coalition of the Socialists (=Labour) and the Right (=Conservatives). After years of political ping pong, the two rivalling political fractions are working together, reforms are having an effect and things are improving.

4. The Germans are worriers. Ten years ago the government told them that the state pension would be smaller than they had expected. Everyone must save themselves to supplement their own old age pension. They did. The government complained that people were spending less money. They still save. The latest statistics I saw for saving as a percentage of income were Germany abut 12%, England 5%, USA 0.5%. Things are getting better. People can relax a bit.

5. Then came the World Cup. A focal point for fun, party, being outside in the sun being able to cheer for a team, any team. Anyone can take part. It costs nothing. My next-door neighbour (she is 83) has suddenly become a football fan. All the football matches have been attended by senior government politicians (Chancellor = Prime Minister, the President = British Royal Family). Football has no class boundaries.

6. And then of course there is the football. The German trainer (Klinsman) had come under considerable criticism because of his training methods and his selection of young players. But the German team is not only delivering the goals but also providing entertaining football. No German would now complain if Germany lost the next match provided they played well.

The World Cup in Germany has become an event where everyone wave flags, not just German flags but any flag. The more colour the better. If after the World Cup, Germans are able to wave the German flag without any hang-ups this is just fine.
Antje Schroeder should update herself with the current social climate in Germany. Things are changing. Having not lived in the UK for many years, I would have difficulties in making a comment about British society.

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78.

At 09:50 PM on 30 Jun 2006,

Bavarian Dancer wrote:

Hi Antje,
Hey!Bring that Flag out of the drawer and hang it like a SUPERMAN.
I lived in Munich for 2 years and I think I can understand the dilemma to wether a German should be as Patriotic as the e.g Americans etc etc.
We, Zeee Germanzz live in Singapore and the community of Germans here will wave the German flag down in Paulaner too! : )

And oh yes of course to those who were discriminated, in many cities there will always be one or two who didn't do well in school and ended using words like "paki Bashing' and chinky or nigger. (You know what I mean).

And regarding being open minded, I think Germans are already there!

Thanks to the Swedes, the Germans bare naked in public mix sauna, have F.K.K beaches and basically besides producing great weapons such as the Hekler & Koch, German engineering, technology and medicine i think is one of the best(Im not saying the best) with or without a flag waving or stamped on it.

I say all this is enough to prove the worthiness of regaining patriotism just like any other nation.

Germany is the 3rd largest economy now and if the number 1 economy like the U.S can do it,(they have serious external and internal problems themselves) so can Deutschland!

In my opinion the 2nd WW came when Germany was a sick nation which was vulnerable and was just waiting for someone who could influence the masses just like influencing a cold and desperate person.

If one really cares too much about the dark past, well the fact is, that evil person was born and raised in Austria.We don't have to ask permission to fly an Austrian flag in future do we? ;)

yeah I know I'm being ridiculous..but seriously..I mean really, its time to move on!!! =)

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79.

At 01:26 AM on 01 Jul 2006,

thibaud wrote:

The English phobia about Germans looks quite strange on this side of the pond. True that America didn't suffer as much as England or Britain during the war, but we suffered a great deal, and other countries suffered at least as much as the English. You don't find the same degree of German-hatred in, say, Russia, whose suffering was far greater than almost any nation's.

It seems as if the British to this day are compensating for their imperial loss by directing that anger toward the nation whose war set in motion the end of the British Empire.

As to Germans' flag-waving and anthem-singing: Go on, enjoy yourselves. That's patriotism at work, not nationalism. The more patriotism, the better. It's an antidote to nationalism and a good way to build a sense of community based not on race or blood but on a sense of heimat/home, family, neighborhoods and common values.

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