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Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

Well...Since one of my brothers has been incarcerated for most of his adult life...when it is time for him to get out (before he goes right back in)...he finds Jesus. It is a manipulative tool and he uses it because...it works.

Then again...I think organized religion is a manipulative tool to control the masses. It can be a good tool...or a very very bad one. Depends who is using the tool.

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

Yeah, the ever forgiving god. In other words, sin and sin and sin and you'll be forgiven every time so long as you're contrite. This is bullshit and sets up the mentality that you can do stuff and get away with it just because you say you repent in the name of some imaginary dude.

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

One thing that always makes me roll my eyes is seeing people make the assumption that you have to believe in a deity in order to be a moral, civilized person. If you aren't a good boy, Santa will put coal in your stocking!

If anything, wouldn't atheists be consider MORE moral, since they're being good for the sake of others rather than in the hopes of getting rewarded in the afterlife?

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

I've always considered the atheists in my life to be the least egocentric people I know. It's the Christians who I find to be the immoral/unethical ones. These "statistics" don't surprise me in the slightest.

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

Originally Posted by JohannBessler

For example, at first glance, a look at the crime map in the United States does seem to support the idea. The lowest crime rates--by and large--seem to exist in places where religion takes a large part in the societal mores.

I suspect you don't disagree with this, Johann, but I think in the U.S. this is largely because the most religious parts of the country are the least densely populated, with the least concentrations of wealth and poverty sitting alongside each other, and less competition for jobs and opportunity. Rather than because there's any direct relationship between religious fervor and crime rate.

Sweden is a sparsely populated country by and large, even its "largest city" is only a million, certainly small by U.S./world standards, and has no dense urban poverty to speak of in comparison to us.

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

nope, one doesnt need spirituality to develop a strong sense of ethics, just as having a religious upbringing doesnt prevent you from becoming a bad person.

actually (and this is my background speaking - i grew up atheist) i tend to think that religious believe may prevent people from fully developing their morality. why engage with those really difficult, fundamental questions, if there is a book that gives you all the answers? i would argue that a person who does the right thing because its the right thing to do actually has a stronger sense of ethics than the person who only does the right thing because a book tells him to, or because he fears gods punishment and desires gods reward.

however, i would be careful with interpreting those prison statistics. for example, poorer communities tend to be more religious. members of poorer communities also tend to end up in prison more often. religious believe may not directly relate to their imprisonment, but both their religious believe and their imprisonment may have been caused by poverty.

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

Originally Posted by JohannBessler

^I think it easy for a man to look around him, pre-armed with a set of beliefs, and see reinforcement of those beliefs.

For example, at first glance, a look at the crime map in the United States does seem to support the idea. The lowest crime rates--by and large--seem to exist in places where religion takes a large part in the societal mores.

North Dakota, for example, contains the highest concentration of churches in the nation; correspondingly it has one of the lowest crime rates. All over the rural South, you'll see this pattern duplicated. In the area in which I grew up, people commit acts of crime so rarely that nobody ever bothers to lock their doors and windows.

At the other end of the spectrum, the coastal areas probably rank as the most secular areas of the countries; correspondingly, they tend to have higher rates of crime.

Apparently, however, the raw data--at least in terms of the constituency of the prisoners--does not back this observation up.

Surely this tallies more with population numbers than anything else. More people usually equals more crime simply in absolute numbers. We'd have to look at relative percentages to be certain, though.

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

Originally Posted by JohannBessler

However, yesterday I ran across some startling statistics that shed considerable doubt on this idea. Raw statistics show that, among the prison population, atheism is quite rare--in fact, in a not-too-long ago published paper, less than 1% of the prison population self-identifies as "atheist".

That finding, to me, is perfectly logical.
If you are going to survey a closed community of criminals then your findings are not going to be reasonable. They are living isolated from main society and will have way too much time on their hands to over-think stuff. It is very logical that they will be looking for any sort of absolution from their sins

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

Originally Posted by LeicsDom

That finding, to me, is perfectly logical.
If you are going to survey a closed community of criminals then your findings are not going to be reasonable. They are living isolated from main society and will have way too much time on their hands to over-think stuff. It is very logical that they will be looking for any sort of absolution from their sins

Plus, the prison community is largely "governed" by various gangs, most of which having some religious affiliation. People in prison are better served by affiliating themselves with one of these groups as they often provide protection as well as a sense brotherhood which I imagine is very necessary when in such a situation.

Someone asked me once how I could know that I'm gay if I've never slept with a woman. I've never shoved shards of glass into my eye, either, but I don't have to give it a shot to know that it's not for me.

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

Originally Posted by JohannBessler

^I think it easy for a man to look around him, pre-armed with a set of beliefs, and see reinforcement of those beliefs.

For example, at first glance, a look at the crime map in the United States does seem to support the idea. The lowest crime rates--by and large--seem to exist in places where religion takes a large part in the societal mores.

North Dakota, for example, contains the highest concentration of churches in the nation; correspondingly it has one of the lowest crime rates. All over the rural South, you'll see this pattern duplicated. In the area in which I grew up, people commit acts of crime so rarely that nobody ever bothers to lock their doors and windows.

At the other end of the spectrum, the coastal areas probably rank as the most secular areas of the countries; correspondingly, they tend to have higher rates of crime.

Apparently, however, the raw data--at least in terms of the constituency of the prisoners--does not back this observation up.

ummmmmmmmmm example: Japan lowest crime rate !!!!
So it is all about education. The more educated people are the less crime rate.

I considered an atheist = used to believe but now don't believe.
A child can NOT be atheist because it doesn't know anything.
An adult who don't know religion can NOT be atheist.

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

not particularly to generalise you could say atheism is an expression of social stability . Nationally the Scandinavian countries generally are highest and the US prison population is probably the single lowest isolatable group . If you were able to isolate a group for poverty and powerlessness I doubt it would be a very different group .

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

to add to or further HUs previous statement " Then there is the whole aspect of who populates a prison. In America, it is much more likely to be a black man or a Latino. Both minorities are demographically intolerant of atheism more than the general population, and as cultures in America, lack representation proportionately in the trend of atheism. " Think from Wikipedia I got the numbers that if the US prison system in consistenlty about 10% of the general population it is something like 40% of black men .

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

you could make a considerable point that since perhaps WWII the life of the average person in the West has been atypically unusually stable . Moreover the activities of a very tiny group are hardly illustrative of general social trends .

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

A few of you good folks know that my father worked as a pastor, and has done so for decades.

Part of that, of course, involved rearing his children in the faith. I can remember endless days spent in church, learning the scriptures.

With this in mind, I'd always thought that some kind of spiritual training necessarily led to the development of a strong sense of ethics. Can secular societies develop ethics, or do they degenerate into Ayn Rand-style Objectivism, in which every man essentially looks out for himself, at the expense of others? The answer to this question has always seemed self-evident.

However, yesterday I ran across some startling statistics that shed considerable doubt on this idea. Raw statistics show that, among the prison population, atheism is quite rare--in fact, in a not-too-long ago published paper, less than 1% of the prison population self-identifies as "atheist".

The results were showing that when the volunteers placed the interests
of others before their own, the generosity activated a primitive part
of the brain that usually lights up in response to food or sex.
Altruism, the experiment suggested, was not a superior moral faculty
that suppresses basic selfish urges but rather was basic to the brain,
hard-wired and pleasurable.

There was another similar article based on scientific studies in another thread but I can't find it right now ...

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

Religion might be able to influence you but ultimately, it is you who make the decisions in your life, with integrity or not. Some people commit crimes out of situations which they deemed to be out of control, others do it for the thrill or for revenge.

Atheists might seem like the most unlikely group to have ethics but they do, and some, I can say, have much more ethics and compassion than religious people or people who've had a religious upbringing.

"... You think the only people who are people
Are the people who look and think like you ..." - Colours of the Wind by Vanessa Williams

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

" Exactly, hence my complaint about the prison population representing anything other than the prison population. " 10 % of any group is a very large sample . As well by "social" I am referring to a group not any individuals in the group . That US prisoners are notably more religious than average and that Scandinavians are notably less than average is I am stating that this relative difference is indicative of a general causal relationship .

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

Originally Posted by umjreon88

Atheists might seem like the most unlikely group to have ethics but they do, and some, I can say, have much more ethics and compassion than religious people or people who've had a religious upbringing.

And atheists don't hide behind a very flawed belief system to justify their misdeeds

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

I see that Alaska--one of the most sparesely populated states in the Union--also has one of the highest crime rates.

I find it hard to find any one common thread. Alaskans,by and large, have libertarian tendencies, and tend to be irreligious.

I see it as kind of a "consider the source" scenario. Alaska is also made up of fishermen and truckers, who have always kind of lived in a self supportive, fend for yourself mentality. On top of the harsh living environment up there, "dog eat dog" fight to survive / every man for himself rules apply.

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

True to really prove this the same test would have to be administered in the same way to both US prisoners and the US general population or Scandinavian prisoners and the Scandinavian general population , I state without proof that the US general populace is roughly the same as the "Scandinavian" . Moreover there is a generally recognised ranking among nations , not my statement .

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

Originally Posted by JohannBessler

However, yesterday I ran across some startling statistics that shed considerable doubt on this idea. Raw statistics show that, among the prison population, atheism is quite rare--in fact, in a not-too-long ago published paper, less than 1% of the prison population self-identifies as "atheist".

What gives? It seems completely counter-intuitive to me.

It's because Christian missionaries regularly hawk around prisons across the United States converting people, and the prisoners are essentially pressurised or mandated to attend these services. I find the practice to be very unsavoury. Cynically forcing religion onto people KNOWING that they're vulnerable to suggestion because of their circumstances.

It would be better if prisons in the U.S. had something like conventional school classes, and prisoners were taught a variety of subjects like art, science, music, history, etc. and their horizons broadened - instead of being courted by predatory evangelists stalking around for easy targets for their fantasy nonsense.

Last edited by ChickenGuy; February 7th, 2013 at 10:20 AM.
Reason: Typos

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

Who do you know who is going to strangers in prison and trying to help them? If atheism is such a glorious basis for social perspective, where are its natural philanthropists in like numbers? Visitors to prisons are there listening, sometimes teaching literacy or other things, and are giving of their time. Where is the parallel work by the atheistic?

For one thing, I'm certain any religious group would find it far easier to enter an American prison than any secular group, based on inherant bias and prejudice amongst the prison and/or county/state authorities, and for another, you can be sure that the churches are FAR more well-funded for these various types of 'outreach programs' () which gives the churches more funds, more people on the ground, more travel options, and more opportunity.

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

In addition, you conveniently left out the significant number of Nation of Islam converts and the forces that work within a prison from within.

I indeed was going to mention something similar to this in my first post. Yes, it also extends to Islam - including some Western converts, both in the U.S. and over here too.

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

Your bias is as obvious as it is inaccurate. You vent your spleen, but tell of fictional places that are not the America that actually is. The terrorists are not the only ones who believe of American culture as the Great Satan apparently.

As usual, you fly off on a tangent with imaginary tales about my hating and despising America - while completely failing to address the central point of my entire post - that motivated fundamentalists of Christianity (and also Islam) will behave much like a brainwashed cult and seek out as many converts as possible - and prisons are prime targets. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

"God is a concept
By which we measure
Our pain
I'll say it again
God is a concept
By which we measure
Our pain"

john lennon

don't you think these lyrics would describe a lot of these prisoners. they're hurting and I'm not saying they don't belong where they are but i'm sure they are just trying to grasp some form of dignity that they have left.

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

Originally Posted by JohannBessler

One other person mentioned this aspect of the phenomenon, JMA, but I see a problem with the reasoning.

If one checks the statistics more closely, one finds that the single biggest contingent of prisoners consists of Catholics. Now, historically speaking, Catholicism has not attracted many converts. Indeed, most people get raised into the faith.

Moreover, conversion to Catholicism takes a great deal of time and effort. One has to go to catechism, and get confirmed, and so on. By contast, conversion to a Protestant religion can literally take minutes.

Yet, as I noted before, the largest contingent of prisoners consists of Catholics. Something interesting is taking place that doesn't seem to provide any answers.

I don't know if it's true or not, but from MY perspective, Catholics seem like the most forgiving. You can do just about anything, confess your sins to a guy in a box, say a few Hail Mary's, and you're forgiven and good to go until you slip up again.

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

The research that I recall reading decades ago was based solely on prisoner's religious affiliations at the time of their first incarceration. Obviously many prisoners convert to some religion or other during their time inside for whatever reason.

It seemed to indicate that the stronger the belief in some form of religion the more likely a person was to disregard the law. Catholics and Muslims certainly seem to be over-represented in British prisons and I doubt that can be blamed on any sort of discrimination.

Re: Surprise Finding About Atheists (you better sit down)

Originally Posted by JohannBessler

It would be very interesting to see those statistics, Leics.

It leads to still another conundrum.

Johann, prior to the "greater social patterns" discussion coming up, if I would have just given you my one line answer on why so many people 'become religious' in prison, I would say it's because in our society, embracing Christianity while in prison gives-- truly or falsely-- the appearance of contrition and reform. Other people have noted it helps in parole hearings and even in the court of public opinion. In that sense I believe sudden religiousness in prison is often utilitarian-- though not necessarily exclusively so. I would have given that answer before assuming any sort of greater pattern between tendency towards religion and tendency towards ethics or crime, just because it seems like the far simpler explanation.

Originally Posted by JohannBessler

I merely attempt to make some sense out of the statistics, because, at first glance, they do seem counterintuitive.

I think Buzzer came pretty close to a fair, accurate analysis. Crime rates in any populace may tend to relate more to population density.

But not always. I see that Alaska--one of the most sparesely populated states in the Union--also has one of the highest crime rates.

I find it hard to find any one common thread. Alaskans,by and large, have libertarian tendencies, and tend to be irreligious.

It seems like any time one comes up with a theory, one can find examples that directly contradict that theory.

Well don't forget, my comment about population density was never meant to be made in a simplistic vaccuum, I noted as well Sweden's lack of dense urban poverty and I didn't note, but meant to imply, its lack of widespread or acute economic disparity compared to us. Japan is very much the same way, it has very high population density, but compared to us, the economic inequality is nowhere near so severe. There are of course cultural factors at work as well, which is why you have outliers like sparsely populated areas with high crime, such as Alaska... although I still think it would be informative to look at whether that crime rate in Alaska is uniformly spread, or highly concentrated to metropolitan Anchorage.