Fascinating! But what I'd like to know is what Barack and Michelle Obama are picturing for the afterlife. NYT, can you clue me in? Because I feel like there are so many things we never found out about Obama the first time around in 2008. How about now?

But, of course, Jodi Kantor published a whole book about the Obamas. It's called "The Obamas." I bought it. On Kindle! So let me do a little search for an answer to my question. How are the Obama's planning to spend their eternal life? Do they believe there's a heaven, and do husbands and wives stay together there?

Word searches in "The Obamas" that returned 0 results: afterlife, afterworld, immortality, immortal, beyond the grave....

Other fruitless searches: eternal (2 matches, both to Obama's calling himself "the eternal optimist"), eternity (some short period of time is referred to as "an eternity in presidential time"), heaven (at the inauguration, Beyoncé Knowles sang "At Last" to the Obamas — "Life is like a song... Here we are in heaven").

In fact, there are only 2 occurrences of "religion" in the text of "The Obamas." The first is not a reference to Obama's religion, just Obama saying that "Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country" (rejecting opposition to building a mosque near the World Trade Center site). The second is a reference to a poll that showed 18% of adults and 31% of Republicans thought Obama was a Muslim:

Only a third said he was a Christian, down substantially from the prior year, and another 43 percent said they did not know his religion at all. It was astonishing— some of the same people who had criticized him as being in the thrall of Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., his former pastor, now believed him to be a devout follower of the prophet Muhammad.

Wait! They didn't say they thought he was devout. They might simply have thought that he was Muslim by inheritance through his father, a cultural matter, which would be quite true. Why make fun of the people who are stuck within the constraints of a poll question? And why act as if that idea — Obama is a Muslim by cultural inheritance through the father — is inconsistent with the criticism of his attachment to Jeremiah Wright? Those criticisms had to do with anti-Americanism and left-wing ideology, not Christian doctrine. (I think I know why. Don't you?)

Some Democrats cried malpractice at the White House for not countering the Muslim rumors with professions of Christian faith: Could aides please just stick a Bible in the president’s hand once in a while? Get him to join a church already? Early in the presidential campaign, Obama had heavily marketed his own religiosity; he won his critical primary victory in South Carolina in part by speaking in churches and distributing literature showing his head bowed in prayer. But ever since the Wright scandal, the Obamas had tried to argue that their faith was a private matter, off-limits for public discussion. Inside the White House during the summer of 2010, as outsiders quietly begged for the president to showcase his Christianity again, there was virtually no serious discussion of the matter, said David Axelrod and others. Telling the president that his staff had been strategizing about his religiosity “wouldn’t be taken well,” Axelrod explained. Since the Obamas had arrived in the White House, they had attended church intermittently, they would continue to do so, and that was that. There was no creative brainstorming about ways to underscore the president’s Christianity for the public, another aide said, because all discussions had to take place within the category of things Barack Obama might actually be willing to do.

And now the Romney campaign is doing the same thing, as Kantor's article says in the third paragraph:

... Mr. Romney speaks so sparingly about his faith — he and his aides frequently stipulate that he does not impose his beliefs on others — that its influence on him can be difficult to detect.

But....

Outside the spotlight, Mr. Romney can be demonstrative about his faith: belting out hymns (“What a Friend We Have in Jesus”) while horseback riding, fasting on designated days and finding a Mormon congregation to slip into on Sundays, no matter where he is.

And...

Just as Ronald Reagan deployed acting skills on the trail and Barack Obama relied on the language of community organizing, Mitt Romney bears the marks of the theology and culture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints....

Mormons have a long tradition of achieving success by sharing secular versions of their tenets, said Matthew Bowman, author of “The Mormon People,” citing Stephen R. Covey’s “The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,” which he called Latter-day Saint theology repackaged as career advice. ...

Mr. Romney is quick to uphold rules great and small. During primary debates, when his rivals spoke out of turn or exceeded their allotted time, he would sometimes lecture them. When supporters ask Mr. Romney to sign dollar bills or American flags, he refuses and often gives them a little lesson about why doing so is against the law.

Doing things by the book has been a hallmark of his career in public life. When Mr. Romney took over the Salt Lake City Olympics, which were dogged by ethical problems, he cast himself as a heroic reformer. As governor of Massachusetts, he depicted himself as a voice of integrity amid what he called the back-scratchers and ethically dubious lifers of state government....

Isn't this pretty much exactly the role we want religion to have in government? It's a strong foundation for commitment to principle and ethics. I'm not saying it's the only foundation, or that religions always support the best principles and ethics, but religion is the moral foundation for most people. It's still up to the individual to make sure that he is using religion for the good, especially if he goes into politics. There's no evidence that Romney has misused his religious values (or that the stranger aspects of Mormonism have anything to do with the way he would govern).

Thus, re-election of POTUS Obama is mandatory. There is nothing personal to Romney. We just want to elect and re-elect Obama from now to Jan. 2017.

Sorry, GOP, we just like what we have. As Reagan said: Do you Americans want to change your horse in mid-stream? No. That is why, our motto is: Forward. It is the same motto for MSNBC, DC Metro system, etc. We are doing what is necessary to win.

NB: Today's NY book review has a hilarious letter by acknowledging Clinton's book review about Caro's new book, but the essay is about himself. It is funny, even as a CORE (COmmittee to Re-Elect) Member of the POTUS Team.

I attended Kantor's book talk about Obamas. She is scared. The first lady's criticism has really stressed her out. She is now doing what is necessary to gain herself back into our fold. We do not like when reporters do not follow the party line: Protect the POTUS family for re-election at all costs. We want to a 2nd term (since the day after the 2008 election). Kantor broke the iron-rule.

SO, now she has to avoid. In fact, there will be nothing new about POTUS. What is covered (or not) in 2008 is it. There is nothing more. That is what we are telling NYT, NPR, etc. As a CORE member of POTUS team, I have personally roughed up a reporter when he had some slight implied criticism from a major lefty newspaper. This is totally unacceptable. Support the re-election of the greatest POTUS at all times, day or night. Should you fail, no interviews, no nothing.

Great comments, professor. The media seem to embrace that the President is "Christian" but they are also secure in the fact that he is not one of those bizarre religious people who actually believe the supernatural stories of the faith. That is, he is culturally Christian while remaining secular. It's strange then that the same media cannot fathom that some people are under the impression that the President is secular, but was raised as a cultural Muslim.

"As a young consultant who arrived at the office before anyone else, Mr. Romney was being “deseret,” a term from the Book of Mormon meaning industrious as a honeybee, and he recruited colleagues and clients with the zeal of the missionary he once was."

-- Does Romney describe it that way? Who used that term to describe his industrious nature? Did it come from Kantor? Why use that term if there is no one quoted as using it? That's just bad journalism.

Imagine the front page news it would be if Obama endured crude jokes, made to his face, about his religion or his race. This would be an interesting story: Mitt Romney in the face of religious bigotry, where they get quotes from people who saw these jokes, pictures of the burned out church that Romney worshiped at, etc.

Why won't we see a story focused on that? Why is it buried four pages in?

Out of the spotlight, away from the politics, private private private.

I do not like the president-as-lifestyle-guru thing we have going on.

And yes, your observation about Wright/Islam is perfect.I would like to add that it seems perfectly acceptable for Americans to not believe what the President or a candidate tells us about his personal thoughts. Obama has admitted to "evolving" on some, and on others it is the in thing to assume he is lying. Why it is *sometimes* just so unfair or rube-ish to assume he's lying, when other times it is expected, is beyond me.

"Among the Belmont Mormons, stories abound of Mr. Romney acting out the values he professed in church. The Romneys left their son Tagg’s wedding reception early to take some of the food to a neighbor being treated for breast cancer."

-- This is another story that I can't believe we're just hearing now, after months of Seamus the dog stories.

It would be interesting to see if such an article would ever be written about a Jewish candidate. Not the after life, but the part about the work ethic. Jewish people tend to have a similarly strong work ethic and punch above their weight* in our society.

Think about it - the Romster is a happy man because he will spend eternity with the sweet and lovely Ann; Little Zero will spend eternity with the grasping, dour Michelle.

Which explains why he is petulant and brittle.

And I love the saver about the Romster, "he and his aides frequently stipulate that he does not impose his beliefs on others".

Another of the Lefties' dodges - always claim anyone with Conservative values is trying to impose them on everyone else while almost all of the Lefties' efforts in religion, government, the media, and education are abont imposing their values.

Ann Althouse said...

In fact, there are only 2 occurrences of "religion" in the text of "The Obamas."

"I would like to add that it seems perfectly acceptable for Americans to not believe what the President or a candidate tells us about his personal thoughts. Obama has admitted to "evolving" on some, and on others it is the in thing to assume he is lying. Why it is *sometimes* just so unfair or rube-ish to assume he's lying, when other times it is expected, is beyond me."

Agreed. The man can write about socialists and Marxists being some of his biggest influences in Dreams from My Father, but it's apparently beyond the pale to suggest the guy might be showing some of those tendencies.

There's no evidence that Romney has misused his religious values (or that the stranger aspects of Mormonism have anything to do with the way he would govern).

You are such a fucking suck-up.

For starters, you haven't done one post - not one - investigating what those "stranger aspects" really are (a fucking cartoon doesn't count as a serious investigation of anything) so you wouldn't know if Romney's misused them or not.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HE'S AGREED TO DO OR WHAT HIS "CHURCH" PLANS!

You're just accepting whatever he says, and what you read in the papers when, if it was a Catholic Priest defending himself of something, you'd be much more skeptical of anything he said and wondering what he's possibly hiding (I've been on this blog for years so don't deny it).

This is just another one of your bullshit whitewashes, just like you did for Obama.

You want to talk about Romney and religion, then do a post where you actually did an investigation of them. This once-over-lightly bullshit just makes you look like a liar and a silly one to boot.

This being, in some manner, a Christian nation, Obama, Pelosi, Clinton el al profess to being Christians. Except that their Christianity seems exclusively to mean support for an authoritarian welfare state. If this were, in some manner, a Hindu nation, they would profess to being Hindus. Except that Hinduism would seem to mean support for an authoritarian welfare state. Liberals religion is just another lie that needed to be told to a stupid populace in order to get power.

Why haven't you done one of your famous word searches about Mitt and Missouri? How about his thoughts on Jesus' plans, that make Romney sound like that guy who's always predicting when the world will end? Or Kolob, which makes him loonier than a Scientologist?

Nothing yet on his covenant, right? I guess the NYT doesn't know enough to ask about that, so you're going to sit on your hands as well, right? And if they never ask, well neither will you?

I kn ow you love gays - how about Romney and gays? It's a big deal when Obama comes out in favor, what about Mitt giving money to fight them? Any chance you'd have an interest in that?

What do ex-Mormons know about Mitt? Anybody ever leave the fold because of him? How do you know? Do you care? Hell no, some other cultist says he's legit and that's good enough for you.

The thing I was most struck by is how the NY Times reports that a religious couple, Mormons in this case, think they will be together in the afterlife and it strengthens their bond as if this is somehow news to its readers. You always get this anthropological perspective when the Times deigns to cover the religion of someone on the right, or when they talk about southerners.

For people who are supposed to be so worldly they sure don't seem to get out much.

Fuck you, GMay and Alex, you're both more brain dead than Frankenstein.

There are so many issues swirling around Romney it's sickening and you'll just accept this shit, like they did John Travolta saying his son died of Kawasaki disease - from "toxins" in the carpet - when EVERYBODY knew the kid had autism.

You're a bunch of fucking morons who gladly facilitate evil as long you never have to think too hard. Well don't worry, babies:

You never have and you never will, you fucking idiots.

Elizabeth Warren says she's a Cherokee and you'll rip the scab off her life, but the potential President of the United States? He gets nothing.

1. To me, this piece captures almost perfectly the feeling inside of Mormonism, the balances and tensions that are internal to Mormonism, e.g. between law and mercy, between self reliance and generosity.

2. To clarify: excommunicated members (say, for egregious adultery) are not barred from the meetings or cast out of the congregation (which congregations are set by geography), but are encouraged to continue in the group, and are able to later be rebaptized if they want.

3. I see two basic groupings within Mormonism:

(a) those than are really good at keeping rules, but are learning how to turn their hearts on, and

(b) those that have hearts of gold, but are learning how God's law (the rules) make those hearts better.

To me, Mitt is clearly in group (a).

4. A reply:Belief in eternal life together, I suspect, is way down the list.

I have to disagree. The highest sacrament in the Mormon faith is marriage.

The actual wording of the ceremony is sacred to us, but is basically has the man committing to agreeing before God to give himself to the woman forever and to also take the woman on the same terms.

And it then has the woman committing to and agreeing before God to give herself to the man forever and to also take the man on the same terms.

(Note that nobody 'gives' the woman to the man but herself.)

Then the wording joins them and states that if the two will keep those promises, they will be blessed in various ways, including with the same blessings given to Abraham and his children and grandchildren.

The result is that the work of your 'salvation' is nothing other than learning to forge a complete union with your spouse, and from there with your kids.

And my conclusion is that it is structured as such because - i.e. the thinking is - if you can do that, if you can work and grow to be totally supportive of your spouse and children, your relationships with others will pretty much flow from there and take care of themselves.

I grew up as an agnostic and went to school with lots of Mormons. They were probably about 10-15% of the folks I knew. They were also, as a group, the kindest, most generous, hardest working folks I knew. They weren't all perfect, and many individuals in other religious/ethnic groups were outstanding as well, but as I said, I grew up with Mormons, and my estimation is: good folks.

Aww poor Crack, throwing another tantrum because AA won't take up the personal crusade you've already allocated too much bandwidth to over on your own blog.

Your idiocy is shown by your clear misunderstanding of AA's style of blogging, despite the hundreds of hours you've spent here, and your schizophrenia is evidenced by the fact that you're all over the fucking place in your response.

Focus son.

Children and liberals want everyone to take up their personal crusades.

Crack is another useful idiot the liberals have co-opted into their anti-Mormon crusade. Yeah I'm sure Mitt's magic-underwear is much more threatening then Obama bankrupting the country, throwing Israel to the Arab wolves and fucking up our energy economy.

A plain man of the people, an extraordinary fortune attended him. He offered no shining qualities at the first encounter; he did not offend by superiority. He had a face and manner which disarmed suspicion, which inspired confidence, which confirmed good-will. He was a man without vices. He had a strong sense of duty, which it was very easy for him to obey. Then, he had what farmers call a long head; was excellent in working out the sum for himself; in arguing his case and convincing you fairly and firmly. Then, it turned out that he was a great worker; had prodigious faculty of performance; worked easily. A good worker is so rare; everybody has some disabling quality. In a host of young men that start together and promise so many brilliant leaders for the next age, each fails on trial; one by bad health, one by conceit, or by love of pleasure, or lethargy, or an ugly temper, — each has some disqualifying fault that throws him out of the career. But this man was sound to the core, cheerful, persistent, all right for labor, and liked nothing so well.

I'd be happy to hear the though process behind both Obamas giving up their law licenses.

Considering the fact that Obama to this day complains about his student loans, I think the subject could be easily broached by an interviewer/biographer.

The first is one of those places where the obvious and simplest explanation is likely the best. According to the Ill. bar, Barack is "retired" and Michelle is "inactive" as attorneys. This most likely means that they gave up their law licenses voluntarily and in good graces because they were not going to practice law for a bit. Both can most likely reactivate at any time, and Mrs. Obama shows an indication that she thinks that she might, while Mr. Obama apparently thinks not. Also, neither appears to have had any public discipline during the two decades or so since they were admitted to the Ill. Bar.

In the states where I am licensed, you need to be current as to the requirements for an active law license in order at least to go "inactive". This means, being up to date with CLE, etc. So, if you get behind, you have to come current first, then you can go inactive.

The advantages of being "inactive" or "retired" as an attorney are that you don't have to keep current on any of the requirements for bar membership, except for paying a reduced membership fee. No CLE, malpractice insurance, trust account, etc. requirements. And, for me, the most ridiculous and sexist one - that you have to affirm that you are current on your child-support (but it is just fine if you are not allowing the other parent their legal visitation).

Imagine the President - "sorry, we will have to delay the reception for the foreign minister today, because I have to attend a CLE seminar". Worrying about their law licenses is just not something that the First Couple need to be worried about.

As to his student loans though - it would be interesting to see exactly how Barack Obama actually financed his elite education. At today's costs, we are probably talking a half a million dollars or more. How much of it was through student loans? And, if not, who else contributed?

I ask this because a couple of months ago, there was this article or so out that claimed that the USPS postman who delivered mail to Bill Ayers' parents claimed that they told him about supporting an African student through college, and when introduced, that African student turned out to apparently be Barack Obama. It is just interesting that it ties in to that recent story about how BHOII's literary agent billed him also as African instead of American. Also, of course, the problem that Ayers the younger turned out to have been a domestic terrorist who likely only failed to do time due to his father's money and connections (the same money and connections that may have helped BHOII through college and law school).

So, it would be interesting to see exactly how this 1%er education was funded. But, my memory is that the student loans were actually Michelle's, who didn't have those connections, etc.

I've appreciated your willingness to talk about Mormon theology here. I disagree that it is Christian, but I think there's a lot of overlap and your comments have always been helpful for my understanding.

I'm curious what Mormons do with Mark 18:22-25, the key part being: Jesus answered: "When they rise from the dead they will neither marry nor be given in marriage but will be like angels in heaven"

I'm pretty much down with you where cults are concerned, but your lack of consistency is starting to bug the crap out of me.

For instance, a Mormon says Jesus is gonna return, and pegs a location as being in Missouri, and that's just crazy talk. But any other Christian professing the Nicene Creed wherein Jesus returns to judge the quick and the dead is totally cool? It hinges on location?

I gotta ask you this: How much fucking time has to pass before a cult becomes an acceptable religion? The Romans considered that messed up sect of Jews to be a cult. Yeah, those moron Jew troublemakers that were pissing of the REAL Jews with their risen from the dead savior, running around tagging the walls with fish graffiti. Now, Jews were jews, they had religion. Not the right one, of course. And they had some real whacked out shit in their book about burning bushes and parting seas and food dropping from the skies, but that's all cool, because they've been around for a long time.

So the Christian sect grew and fought and split and fought some more, and over time becomes a religion, even though they have all this goofy zombie shit with a guy getting nailed to a cross, dying horribly and causing earthquakes and storms and then he gets dragged into a tomb and descends into hell and then comes back from the dead, walks around with his buds and pops up to heaven after awhile. But he's coming back. The Mormons just say he's coming back to Mizzou.

Seriously. When does someone else's whacked out cult become a mainstream religion? How long is acceptable to you? Does modern technology speed up the process?

Because I really don't see how the Mormons are any whackier than Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Scientologists, Pagans and the nearly unlimited flavors of New Age weirdness. To me, they're all whacked out.

But that's ok. I can live with that.

Crack. You need to get with the program, and get consistent. Either ALL religion is cultist, or it's not. Make up your fucking mind already.

My ability to worry about the Mormons is impaired by the fact that they already pretty much run one state, and haven't done anything particularly startling with that power. Would someone like to take a, er, crack at persuading me that there's something about Mormonism that has terrifying implications for, say, foreign policy or regulation of interstate commerce?

Because I feel like there are so many things we never found out about Obama the first time around in 2008. How about now?

What didn't get covered well is the United Church of Christ, the denomination BO was a member of for all of those years. A dwindling denomination known more for its liberal politics than its theology. A denomination that is only 4% black and certainly not one of the larger black denominations (i.e. AME ) A denomination that has counted among its ministers ,Barry Lynn.

Oh I don't know. If I were the Obamas, and if the afterworld was a fair place where folks get what they deserve, I'd be planning to go some place where it is very very warm. Moochelle should pack a lot of shorts--maybe something like the outfit she wore when she got off Air Force One at the Grand Canyon.

And of course The Won will join her there for Eternity--his "cross" to bear as it were.

Bill and Hillary Clinton were very religious because I used to see pictures and videos of the two of them going to church every Sunday. Bill had his own Bible. In the Bible you have a story about a burning bush, and then there is a story about Bill Clinton and the unlit cigar.

My ability to worry about the Mormons is impaired by the fact that they already pretty much run one state, and haven't done anything particularly startling with that power.

Fool! Don't you see that they're running Utah this way just to dupe people like you? Their Master Plan for World Domination includes pretending to be perfectly normal until they have insinuated their agents into every position of authority in the world.

The good news for us is that they'll presumably have to keep the ruse going when Romney is president, lest their ability to take over the rest of the world is thwarted by premature revelation.

I think Chip pretty much called it. POTUS isn't enough to play our hand. We need more than that.We needed Oprah, pre-Oxygen. Don't know who her replacement is yet, but I'm sure they'll inform me at my next quorum meeting.

My own experience with Mormons is limited, but those I have known tended to be very much of the "live and let live" mind set. They did their thing and minded their business when it came to others. Just the kind of attitude I'd want of government officials.

Now granted, there are exceptions to this. Those freshly scrubbed and neatly dressed young men who go door to door to spread the word can be down right annoying. Even in that case though, a strong signal of disinterest is enough to send them on their way.

In any case, no matter how "weird" you think Romney's religion might be, remember he has actually been the chief executive of a state. Not just any state mind you, but that bastion of right wing nuts known as Massachusetts (as in The People's Republic of). Since the Bay State seems to have avoided the curse of becoming Mormon run enterprise, I'm sure the USA has nothing to fear.

I look forward to the NYT article expressing a similar wide-eyed wonder at the notion that the Romneys follow an obscure cult that believes that, through what they call "compound interest," debts get larger or smaller depending on how quickly you pay them back.

If the Left makes an issue of Romney's Mormon faith, then Obama's attending Rev. Wright's sermons for 20 years is fair game.

It's fascinating how we're learning so much about Romney's past (and apparent eternal future). We've learned he may've been a bully in high school over 40 years ago. We're learning about his work habits as a young man. No doubt we'll learn much more in the months to come.

At the same time, the Press still has not dug into Obama's background. A few conservative pundits are starting to ask questions, but the Press seems to be screaming, “I don’t want to know and you can’t make me look! LALALALALALALALALAL!!”

I've known a lot of Mormons, nearly all of them decent people with many admirable traits which make them trustworthy and successful in secular life. It's a strikingly consistent pattern.

Their religion seems a little strange to me, but then I find religions strange as a general matter. Count on the supposedly tolerant left to keep pounding on the strangeness. I also count on the American people to pick up on Romney's corny decency and sincerity.

No, the problem isn't that I "focus on the fucking Mormon thing above all else" but that you refuse to focus on it at all (no matter who's being hurt by it, or what bullshit they're selling, or what it means to have a president that gullible) but the forst of it is you're trying to sell this dingbat as "normal." Fuck you - any normal man would say Joseph Smith was a convicted con man selling wolf tickets, but you won't even demand that of him - instead you've decided to shove this absolutely insane claim to normalcy down everyone else's throat. That's what's got me so pissed. You won't even acknowledge the mindfuck - you and Ann and all the rest of you whack jobs have enlisted yourselves in selling it further.

Fuck you, you're all liars.

Chef Mojo,

Crack. You need to get with the program, and get consistent. Either ALL religion is cultist, or it's not. Make up your fucking mind already.

What have I said different? What bothers you, I think, is I take this serious enough to see it's nuances (something a moron like Alex refuses to see as he claims, all of a sudden, liberals have my mind - another drop of bullshit as stinky as this Romney-is-normal claim).

The difference with Mormonism is, because it's a modern phenomena, we can prove - 100% and more - that everything about this "religion" and the man who started it was complete and total bullshit. Did Jesus exist? Inconclusive, but probably not - let's say we're 90% sure he didn't. His miracles? Pure hogwash. How about Muhammad? Also inconclusive but a maybe, etc. But Joseph Smith? Oh, he existed - and he was a con man extraordinaire. We know this. There's no reason to debate if anything he ever said was true. It was all lies, from top-to-bottom, and facilitated stealing from people, raping girls, getting people killed, and the only operating theocracy in the entire country.

Boy, I can't wait until we get a follower of THAT in charge!!!!

The only cult comparable to Mormonism is Scientology, and I'm pretty sure if Tom Cruise was running for president these liars would have a few questions for him. Hell, if a Jehovah's Witness was a candidate, blood transfusions would surely be on the table. But let this nutty professor come forward and just because you lames are so desperate to beat Obama you not only decide to allow pure evil to run our country because it dresses itself up piously but you start talking their bullshit about how normal they are when they can't prove a word they say to hold their cult together.

It's bad enough they've already baptized me into their bullshit without my consent - just so they can lie and claim to be "the world's fastest growing religion" - but to let them actually take over our country?

You people are the bottom feeders of humanity.

But go on - cults and the lies to help them never come to any good, and you'll pay for this as surely as the sun comes up. I love my country. I don't know what you assholes call what you're up to, but whatever it is, it'll backfire. It has to:

Mitt Romney is a gullible freak of nature who can't do us any good because he's either not in touch with reality or living a lie. You can see it in his speaking style - he's scared because he knows - that's why he's such a fucking bumbler. He's hiding and he knows it.

Mormonism was born and raised in America. It would be strange if an America's only native religion disqualified one to be the American President....The strangeness of the Mormon faith is mitigated by the blandness and normality of its adherents. Mormons are simply not conspicuously more unbalanced than followers of other churches.....The worst excesses of religion occur when people go to church to worship their resentment and anger and to make their hatred a holy cause. Perhaps the Rev. Wright delivered other, more charitable sermons, but that looks like the active ingredient in his ministry. The best that you can say about Obama's faith in that man is that it was a cynical pose.

I could beat Richard Dawkins in believing in a cold dead universe that could not care less about your little slime mold existence, but I will say that when a friend of mine got lost in Gooseberry Mesa while slickrock biking, I started asking for help among the few others in the parking lot and I was blown off with empty wishes of good luck by most of the people there. Then this party of Mormons heard my troubles. Two of them immediately took off together to see if they could find him before dusk. A third started calling a biking expert in the nearest town to see where he was likely to be; and the fourth stayed with me to offer moral support. They stayed on the job for about two hours, until the two who went looking found him at the place where the biking expert thought he was most likely to have turned the wrong way.

They did that not because Joseph Smith was a nut, but despite it, Crack Emcee. What would you have done in that circumstance, I wonder? What would I have done? What would Barack Obama have done? We don't have to ask about Romney, of course, because...

By calling this shit "normal" you're already on my bad side because you're automatically playing the cult game:

You're redefining the world "normal."

Now, how many other redefinitions are you assholes going to force on us to make that work?

The Indians are thew lost tribe of Israel - is that now a "normal" claim, yes or no? Should we inform the Indians? Should we inform the Jews? How long should we string this charade out before somebody calls "bullshit"?

Should we revamp NASA to find the planet/star Kolob? Will it be "normal" if we do? We could build a Kolob Rover, what do you think? I say let's start raising money now.

And Jesus is coming to Missouri - shouldn't we get started on his lodgings? Will it be "normal" to do so?

Or would the normal thing be to tell Romney he's full of shit?

Oh-ho-ho! We can't do that! What about the kids and their precious educations? Better to endorse this whole line of crack pottery than inform them we could give a shit if they're educated or not because we'll go along with crazy talk either way and call the guy defiantly wearing the dunce cap "normal" anyway.

Suuuuure.

You fucking losers. You're too fucking dumb than to consider the real-world consequences of your actions. You think the hippie era was bad because they discovered the festering sore at the center of our ideals? Well, wait until they get load of this shit:

Your kids are going to HATE you once they see what you've shoved down their throats this time,....

crack - fuck you. You're so fucking full of crap. Do you honestly think that atheists like me are drawn into the Mormon "cult"? Do you honestly think that there is anything more to this then "vote for the lesser evil"? What are you suggesting, vote for Obama? My god man, are you that fucking dumb?

Crack, I don't think you get how completely insane you sound to anyone who actually knows Mormonism.

I'm an atheist who grew up in a Mormon family, lived in Utah for five years, and know the ins and outs of its history and theology.

The kind of stuff that you've decided is evidence of a big threatening conspiracy is the kind of abstract theology that Mormons debate when they've had too much postum. Joseph Smith's ideas about Missouri or the planet Kolob are about as meaningful to daily Mormon experience as Saint Stylite's ideas about pillars are to Roman Catholics.

Hey, Kids, I've got a Little House On The Prairie mindset to introduce you to that was inculcated in an atmosphere of occult cornswallow, child rape, and stealing - is that great or what? And all you've got to do is go on YouTube and - with hardly any pressing at all from a conservative - you can hear the future President Of The United States bumble his ass into spouting some completely illogical bullshit that makes that guy who predicts the end of the world seem sane (though we all laughed at him, being fair people and all.)

I'm writing you from Utah. What you will find is that Utah is completely, utterly, normal.

Funny, I went for coffee with a friend this morning, and told him about this thread, and he agreed Mormons were strange. Not just strange but weird. You see, when you live with them, you aren't swayed by the surface shit - family photos and good deeds - guess what? I've got both of those to my name as well! But what I don't have are secret oaths to do as the church says, a history of peer pressure to do as the church says, a bunch of cock-a-mamy beliefs that I have to force on others to do as the church says, etc.

The Mormons have had 100+ years to impose their weird ideas and theocratic ambitions on a state and what they've managed to come up with is ... Arizona.

What a whitewashing of Mormon history. Joseph Smith was killed in jail by a mob of "normal" people - just as L. Ron Hubbard died in hiding for tax evasion and attempting to infiltrate the government. Go talk your bullshit to someone who doesn't know shit, O.K.?

Like that Cohen Brothers line, that's called sarcasm. Flip it over and you get something closer to the truth. Men living on or close to welfare because their families are too big to support. Women who are worked-to-death (and going close to crazy) for the same reason. Where are they in y'all's Mormon expose's? And why do I know about them and you don't?

Because you don't care to know, that's why. You like buying into lies. You like telling lies. That's how we got Barack and that's how we're getting this loser.

If the Left makes an issue of Romney's Mormon faith, then Obama's attending Rev. Wright's sermons for 20 years is fair game.

This is the only way you guys are capable of thinking. This is what's killing us. Your extreme partisanship. Alex has used it already to lie and turn me into a liberal. That's where the danger is - you're no longer in reality but living a lie and piling them on to make it work. And all for a fucking cult.

You are not giving one thought to the good of the country but playing this childish tit-for-tat horse race bullshit. The lesser of two evils? Anybody given any thought to not voting for evil at all? No, of course not, that would be too simple a road for this country to take. We've GOT to have more evil - and the more the better.

Really, I could take most of the posts on this thread, smush them together, and make a brain cell for one of you to carry. You can decide who gets it.

Did people react to Nixon being Quaker the way Crack is reacting to Romney being Mormon? I am imagining that most people went "eh," and thought it quaint if anything at all. Harmless enough. Maybe people assumed Quaker pacifism would affect Foreign Relations. I am not so sure that the mythological aspects of the religion, Crack insists cult and it is, informs decisions directly, as in asking, what would Joseph Smith do?" You do see Mormon religion inform civic decisions and lying mythology or not it informs them well, and sometimes even attractively. Mormons are big on bees. Did you notice the manhole covers in SLC are beehives? That's awesome.

Crack has been completely consistent. If I understand him, all religion is bogus. The silliness of the mythology within it characterizes the whole enterprise and renders it bogus. To believe a portion is to believe the whole and renders the believer, any believer, all believers, gullible and culpable in their gullibility. Given that, our refusal to examine closely is disgusting.

My experience with cults began with the Moonies back in the 80s when they let them bother people in airports. They were always trying to get people to "listen, just listen." Their riff was relentless and persistent and annoying in the extreme. In time they came to recognize the businessman's look that said "fuck off." There are anti-cultists who want people to "listen, just listen" and there is no stopping them either. They are cut from the same cloth, determined to let you know how wrong you are and how important it is for you to take their warnings to heart, to adopt what they have to say. And if you don't you are an idiot, a moron, wrongheaded in every way. Another cult. The cult of I AM RIGHT.

The kind of stuff that you've decided is evidence of a big threatening conspiracy is the kind of abstract theology that Mormons debate when they've had too much postum. Joseph Smith's ideas about Missouri or the planet Kolob are about as meaningful to daily Mormon experience as Saint Stylite's ideas about pillars are to Roman Catholics.

First, you're not denying these things, you're just claiming they're not what a serious scholar of Mormonism would find convincing. Well guess what genius - THESE AIN'T SERIOUS SCHOLARS OF MORMONISM.

You want to talk about Romney's oath to the covenant? To serve his church ABOVE his government? Come on, Smart guy, let's talk some serious Mormonism - he did take the oath:

Has anyone asked him about that? No. Should they? Of course, because it'll put him on a collision course between his church and his government. But guess what? His church and it's members have been known to lie to protect it's interest. So who and what do we trust? Can we trust Romney? WE HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA! His entire "church" is based on lying, stealing, and raping. First they were for polygamy. Then they wanted a state - Opps! - "the prophet" said that shit was OVER! (Perfect timing.) But goodness, that Romney sure does have a big family, no?

I'm glad Unknown brought up Celestial marriage because it shows just how easily the weirdness can be paraded before you guys and you don't catch it:

The New York Times is reporting that a man and multiple wives get their own planet to populate, of which he will be God, and even they don't understand what they're looking at.

That's how comical this entire conversation is. You all know nothing, but good deeds, big families, and what looks like a bland state - with an explosion of child molestations, teacher sex scandals, multiple incidences of fraud, and pressure on others to conform that's stifling.

You're truly as naively evil as they are - and, at least, give me a better view of how gullibility plays out in all this.

Having a president this stupid with be something to watch, that's for sure,...

Did people react to Nixon being Quaker the way Crack is reacting to Romney being Mormon?

Were the Quakers started by raping con men? Have the Quakers started whole industries based on conning the American people - with that wonderful, moral Mormon, Orrin Hatch, guiding it's every illegal move like a good religious person does?

Crack has been completely consistent. If I understand him, all religion is bogus. The silliness of the mythology within it characterizes the whole enterprise and renders it bogus. To believe a portion is to believe the whole and renders the believer, any believer, all believers, gullible and culpable in their gullibility. Given that, our refusal to examine closely is disgusting.

Do I have that right?

Close. The idea that Romney gullibly - and defiantly - carries with him a HUGE blind spot can spell no good for this country. O.K., so his Mormonism's only bit OTHER PEOPLE on the ass so far (and it has, just few write glowingly about it) but the "White Horse's" time will come with power. Shit, he can't answer the simplest of questions now. And everybody laying cover for him doesn't help the situation any more than a parent doing their kid's homework. He must be vetted - and HARD - if he's got a shot at being a good president.

Mormons are good people. I used to be a Baptist but after prayer, I decided that joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was a great idea. I have been a member for seven years and I have not regretted it a single bit.

Best practical lesson my dad taught me, albeit indirectly, was to aim higher than the center of the ball (target) if you want to hit the sweet spot because you'll always drop your swing just a little bit.

Aiming for the hereafter should have a better chance at keeping you together for a lifetime.

I'm going to say this one last thing and then disappear for a while because you jack-offs are going to do whatever anyway:

This country is teetering on the edge of disaster, a fact it discovered loooong after the worst had occurred, and it still hasn't changed it's behavior to accommodate reality. If it did, the citizens would've met Obama with pitchforks at the White House door when he announced his last round of stimulus funding, but no - they think this is a joke. This crisis is the result of the leadership you've chosen to listen to, AND who you chose to ignore.

I know of two men who warned us we'd find ourselves here, both of whom I happily voted for, and never accused of being either cultists or weirdoes.

One did it in 2003 and the other in 2005 and 2006, and the first has been ridiculed as "stupid" almost from the day he began his national political career - and the other was humiliated by being passed over for a nobody.

Their names are George W. Bush and John McCain.

By not understanding the importance of these two men (and they are men) this country has continued to make one blunder after the other, by ignoring their words and then forcing them to deal with the hardships YOU placed in their way - and then blaming THEM as it all came apart.

McCain wasn't a good candidate? Bullshit - you were a lousy citizen.

And you're now continuing that streak, edging us ever closer to the inevitable, merely because it's you and your kind in control. Decline for America is a choice.

If the Left makes an issue of Romney's Mormon faith, then Obama's attending Rev. Wright's sermons for 20 years is fair game.

This is the only way you guys are capable of thinking. This is what's killing us. Your extreme partisanship. Alex has used it already to lie and turn me into a liberal. That's where the danger is - you're no longer in reality but living a lie and piling them on to make it work. And all for a fucking cult.

Crack, you sound like the worst kind of bigot. I'm agnostic but one of my nieces married a Mormon and joined their church. Guess what, they're normal. One of my neighbors is Mormon. Guess what, they don't bother anyone. Go fuck yourself, you ignorant loud-mouthed bigot.

I don't give a damn about Rev Wright or Mormons but if you want to go attacking Mormonism, be prepared for some pushback. I doubt seriously that any Mormon ever told his congregation "God Damn America." Obama sat in those sermons for 20 years. Was it just for show or did they resonate with him?

I liked John McCain until he chose Palin as his running mate. It seemed exactly like a hail Mary pass that didn't work and I choose to believe he knows that. No hard feelings John.

I liked George Bush until it became evident to me that the NeoCons he was relying on had a strong inclination towards a suicidal USA vs. ROW conception of reality. I don't include Condy Rice in that - I have a lot of respect for her. I would have respected George more if he didn't seems as if he was allowing himself to be used by the neoCons.

ricpic said...I assume their marriage is strong based on mutual respect. Among other things. Belief in eternal life together, I suspect, is way down the list.

Mormons believe the family remains intact in the afterlife and I imagine that belief does contribute to the strength of their marriage. Mormons also believe that the larger the family, the better it serves God (not sure the source of that belief, but Mormons could one day single-handedly save the white race).

There are aspects of Mormonism that do seem a little "weird" to us non-Mormons, but my encounters with observant Mormons through the years have been, by-and-large, positive. As ethical and moral beings, the Romney's seem exemplary.

If we are to have a protracted discussion of Mormonism, I must insist that we also have a protracted discussion of Black Liberation Theology. Obama said after he became a Christian, he looked long and hard for a church that "spoke to me." That church turned out to be Trinity United. What was it about Black Liberation Theology that "spoke" to Barack? The black separatism? The Marxism? The anti-Semitism? What?? Isn't knowing this at least as important as knowing what Romney's Mormonism means to him?

We're faced with two choices. Unless you can make a case for voting for Obama, then shut up and vote for Romney.

I hate to be the one to tell you, but there is no impending Theocracy in this country. You buy into the caricatures liberals paint of their opposition. You rail against the candidate that is the alternative to Obama.

Unless you have a viable alternative (hint: you don't) stop flinging feces all over the thread at people who have completely logical and rational reasons for disagreeing with you.

There have been more scurrilous anti-LDS books published than any other religion. Joseph Smith was told that his name would be had for good and evil in the world. That prophecy has been fulfilled. This post and the comments are full of partial truths and falsehoods about the LDS religion. Suffice it to say that it takes the Bible more literally than many Evangelicals do.

And it continues to grow briskly although there have always been apostates and enemies who feed the stock of lies and attacks.

The late President Gordon W. Hinckley gave a speech in which he acknowledged how strange some of the claims of Joseph Smith and the revelations he received seem and how unexplainable the church's growth appears. From 5 members in 1830 to over 15 million world- wide today. The explanation lies in the Book of Mormon itself which contains a promise that anyone who reads it with a sincere desire to know the truth and with intent to follow the truth can ask God in the name of Christ with the same intent and will receive the witness by the Holy Ghost that it is true. If it is true, then Joseph Smith was a real prophet, there really are angels and revelations and miracles in our day as there were in the Bible.

There is no point in debating and casting aspersions. There is only that testimony for those who desire to know truth and follow it where it leads.

Mitt Romney and his wife and family are evidence to most people that their faith has been a good thing in their lives, but good is a subjective thing. Truth is not. There are more ways to know truth, however, than the scientific method. We know many things that we can't prove and there are many questions that are still asked which science is still unable to answer.

Obama sat in those sermons for 20 years. Was it just for show or did they resonate with him?

Strawman:

If you can find one kind word I've ever said about Obama I dare you to produce it.

You don't understand the first thing I've said here. Did I say all Mormons are bad people? No - not once. You're seeing what you want to see - which is how we got Obama. And now you're repeating that process, but from the Right side of the aisle.

I've said, repeatedly, you're not doing your jobs as citizens. You're taking the easy way out. You're being partisan to the extreme - to the point of being senseless - and as a conservative Republican, I mean it.

You want to pushback for Mormonism, be my guest:

Every underage girl trapped with some horny old man throughout the history of the organization, every black person ever hounded by them, every gay person who's killed themselves because of them, and everyone ever defrauded by them thanks you, applauds you, and salutes you.

We're faced with two choices. Unless you can make a case for voting for Obama, then shut up and vote for Romney.

Bullshit - we run this country, not the election cycle. We could stop everything in it's tracks but you're more comfortable with going along. You want to choose between eating shit pudding and a shit sandwich, be my guest. But don't tell me those are the only options:

I just have one question. If Mormons are supposedly so much of a cult that they're sucking everyone else into their little game, what do you propose? If your answer is anything other than letting them live deluded (but maybe happy?) if they want to, you really are un-American.

And I just have to say, you're sounding an awful lot like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

And we all know where that thinking ended...

I don't expect to change Crack's opinion. But I do think maybe everyone else might consider very seriously where his brand of discourse can lead.

"Bullshit - we run this country, not the election cycle. We could stop everything in it's tracks but you're more comfortable with going along. You want to choose between eating shit pudding and a shit sandwich, be my guest. But don't tell me those are the only options:

It's simply a damned lie."

This is what we call self-delusion.

We have a process that has gotten us to this point. A process I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you're familiar with. That process has given you two choices. Now deal with it in a rational, adult manner, or go somewhere else where the process meets your approval. Or just go vote Ron Paul like the good imbecile you are.

You think John McCain was a good candidate? Not by your own standards. He's Christian. Your consistency on this issue is about as solid as Obama's opinion on gay marriage.

A: The effectiveness of Mormonism is shown by the fact that they solve a lot of social problems without using the powers of the government.

The number of poor that are helped in Utah without the state ever being involved would be surprising.

Further regarding Utah being average, those of us Mormons who grew up outside of Utah (I grew up in the NYC metro area) will tell you that Utah has developed a rather unpalatable culture among a certain segment of the Mormon population it is a combination of western provincialism, self-righteous know-it-all-ism, John Birch Republicanism, and "protect the children" bubble-ism.

What many of us in Mormonism call the Utah culture is not an accurate reflection of the liberal (in the classical meaning) spirit of Mormonism as articulated by Joseph Smith in such words as:

"I don’t care what a man’s character is; if he’s my friend—a true friend, I will be a friend to him, and preach the Gospel of salvation to him, and give him good counsel, helping him out of his difficulties."

and

"I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm yet deals justice to his neighbors and mercifully deals his substance to the poor, than the long, smooth faced hypocrite."

In Utah, there are many Mormons who simply can't love a man that swears.

Q: What about all that weird stuff like planets called Kolob and such?

A: One of the unfortunate results of having lots of enemies within and outside of Christendom, is that lots of people have been laboring like beavers for a very long time to find and point out every word ever uttered by a Mormon leader that may be useful to ridicule.

And they always seems to miss the relative weight placed on what they 'expose'.

Mormons believe that God lives on a planet!

Well (a) Mormons believe no such thing as stated, and (b) even taking into account that Mormons believe that God exists with us in time and space and therefore does indeed reside somewhere in the universe (the closest planet to which, Mormons are insignificantly willing to accept, was revealed to Joseph Smith in a rare heavenly tutoring on cosmology as being named Kolob) the relative weight or theological centrality of such minutia to a Mormon is low, and certainly orders of magnitude lower than the Mormon critics paint it to be.

Q: If Mormonism is a cult, surely there's got to be a Jeremiah Wright somewhere ready to be exposed by Obama's team.

A: Well, just last April Mormons held their worldwide General Conference, and will hold the next one the first week of October.

If there are things being spoken by Mormon leaders that hurt Romney, either Obama's team is stupid for not knowing about it, or, rather, in reality there aren't any.

But see for yourself.

Here are the proceeds of the April conference. Watch any one you want.

Do Mormons believe you can marry dead people the way you can baptize them? I can marry all the dead women I want and spend all eternity with these Gibson and Ziegfield girls on my very own planet? There are some very attractive tenets to the Mormon faith. Perhaps they could do with a further revelation regarding coffee and red wine, but I like the part about getting your very own planet. How much happier eternity would be if everyone had to adapt to me on my planet instead of me having to adapt to you here on planet earth.

Crack, when a person is raised with certain mores and values (such as a Morman) it doesn't seem strange and idiotic to them. Your rants on this subject render you strange and idiotic. Although I've read and agreed with lots of your blog fodder, your irrational and anti-LDS bigotry is undermining your credibility with me as a reader. I think the religion is "weird" but I can't say the same thing about many of the people who practice it whom I have worked with or who have been my neighbors.

Crack. I have been around for a few years and have observed your obsession grow more boring by the post. You are wrong on stilts about many many things but are delusional enough to think otherwise. Too bad for you. You seem otherwise a pleasant enough fellow, but this cult shit is whacko, dude. For your own good you should drop it because if Romney is elected President eight years from now you are going to look very very foolish.

I think the religion is "weird" but I can't say the same thing about many of the people who practice it whom I have worked with or who have been my neighbors.

I'm going to add this comment up to everybody not reading everything I write, BUT FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME:

People come and go in cults. Some are very nice. Some are downright evil. Sometimes the nice people do vil things and vice-versa. But the individuals in a cult have NOTHING to do with the cult itself.

You don't think there were "nice" folks in The People's Temple? Heaven's Gate? Scientology? What does that have to do with 900 dead? Mass suicide waiting for a spaceship? Kidnapping a woman and holding her hostage until roaches ate her flesh? And how did all those nice people get there? From believing in bullshit and running from reality every time it showed itself.

Just like you all are now. And let me be clear about something:

I'm not trying to be your friend here. Cults destroy lives, so if you don't like what I'm saying and how I'm saying it, tough tittes. You all are defending evil. The control of people's minds to adhere to a con man's nonsense just because you don't have enough guts to stand up for ethics. You deserve every name in the book being called at you - and worse. You're scum. Honestly. Truthfully. I'm positive, in WWII, if you were in Germany you would've went along with the Nazis. It was just another cult. You don't have minds of your own and you think it's O.K. others don't either. Well fuck you:

Crack good of you to point out that Mormanism is not just about the picture of the happy family, but full of false prophets who spring from a text that most traditional Christians believe in not divinely inspired, but of course everybody is entitled to their beliefs. And what fun for Althouse to compare her choice for president, Mitt and his beliefs with Obama's. And while we are at it, why not contrast the belief that Mitt can convert the dead Jews with that fact that is not mentioned in Obama's profile? Surly Obama must be faulted for that absence.

What is it that Romney, as Mormon, will do that we will have to pay for?

You keep telling us that we're willfully blind, so help me out here -- blind to what, exactly?

Personally, I'm looking forward to having a responsible, hard working adult in charge of the country again.

Are you morons reading the thread? What part of he took an oath to put the needs of his cult above the government didn't you catch? And if that's true - and it is - then why can't we ask him about it?

Don't you see that by bending the rules for him you're already twisting reality? We know about Bush's religion. Obama's has been a top[ic of discussion for years. Rick Santorum's a Catholic - so's Newt. But Romney?

BIGOTRY! BIGOTRY! BIGOTRY! BIGOTRY! BIGOTRY!

You guys are setting up a disaster by getting everything wrong before the freak even gets into office. You're already trying to take away people's freedom of speech. You're already screaming bigotry where there is none. You're not vetting what may be the most powerful man in the world. You know NOTHING about his cult - which you know was started by a con man (Why does Romney stay in such an organization - and don't give me that strong families bullshit. Lots of people have strong families: why does he stay in a con man's religion?)

Why not contrast the belief that Mitt can convert the dead Jews with that fact that is not mentioned in Obama's profile? Surly Obama must be faulted for that absence.

Please. Obama said he could lower the oceans and has driven people into the poor house with his silly ideas. My fucking hero. He got advice for governing from Oprah, who couldn't tell the truth to save her life. The man deserves to be tarred and feathered.

You people better get it through your heads:

You've now put two untrustworthy human beings over our lives, and unless you, too, decide they're a risk not worth taking, we're fucked no matter which way we go - just in different ways. But one way is clear - cultism:

Going from a NewAge president to a Mormon is a leap I never imagined you'd be dumb enough to make, but then - after Obama - I rarely ever considered the question, "How can it get any worse?"

I sure hope you meant Matthew chapter 22, as Mark doesn't even have a chapter 18!

And I don't see how Quayle's brief reply is responsive, as Jesus is answering a hypothetical that's specifically about people who are married on earth! I think you need to say more (if and when you have time.)

My experience with cults began with the Moonies back in the 80s when they let them bother people in airports.

Just for the record, Michael, about 2/3 of those "Moonies" were really Hare Krishna who found they couldn't get the results they needed in their flashy orange robes.

The Moonies never had more than a tenth of the membership they claimed - for the last 30 years they've been claiming 30,000 members in the US. There were never more than about 3,000 US members at any one time, and that's held pretty constant over the years even though they all got married in the 80s and had lots of children.

As many parents have left as stayed over the years, and about half of the "2nd generation" has left. Hilariously, sometimes the parents leave and the children stay. No accounting for taste.

Oh bullshit - I'm a member of the LDS church merely because I live in Utah. They add you to the rolls whether you join or not.

No, Crack, that is 100% bullshit.

I was a finance clerk and membership clerk twice for the Mormon church. I've forgotten more theology that you know. There are plenty of criticisms to make of Mormonism (enough that I've left the church--and they didn't give a shit--so much for cult) but what you keep ranting about is ignorant crap. You make things up and then scream about them. I believe you are a pathological liar and a complete narcissist. You have grown worse over the past few years.

I already know you will write "fuck you" and make a bunch of outlandish statements and outright lies, but you have no credibility left in this forum.

(The fact that you constantly conflate the LDS church with splinter groups pretty much destroys your credibility. That you adamantly refuse to give a definition of cult reinforces the attitudes of most here that you are simply a bigot.)

That you adamantly refuse to give a definition of cult reinforces the attitudes of most here that you are simply a bigot.)

That none of you - NONE OF YOU - have given the subject a moment's thought on your own reinforces my attitude you wouldn't know the first thing about any of it, so your judgement means little to me.

I'm the one who keeps calling this shit correctly - like the recent news that Oprah was directing Obama's presidency behind the scenes - while the rest of you ridiculed and called me crazy. Until I was right:

It has been a NewAge presidency.

YOU KNOW NOTHING. You don't know what to look for, how to frame the issues, what questions to ask. You're morons. You make assumptions when you should ask questions. You get mad when you should listen. You defend the wrong people, and the wrong policies, and you don't think a guy who had nothing to do with it can see the error of your ways? Why? Because you didn't?

Why do you still refuse to define what a cult is? As near as I can tell, in your mind it's anything with which you disagree.

Just ask yourself, how can a religion be a cult if it allows members to freely leave as I have? How can a religion be a cult that doesn't bother trying to get two of my brothers to go back to church?

You make no cogent arguments, just rants about how everyone else is stupid. When that isn't enough, you make things up. You preach hate in the name of truth, but it isn't. Once again, you are an bigoted ignoramus, a pathological liar and a hypocrite.

Sure it does - ask anyone here who has known me for a while. I've questioned myself a lot. But when I turn out to be right as often as I am, it's kind of hard to take your ignorant questions seriously. Why do you still refuse to define what a cult is? As near as I can tell, in your mind it's anything with which you disagree.

That's because you're stupid, and so hyped on protecting stupidity you can't entertain the fact anyone can be right but you. Just ask yourself, how can a religion be a cult if it allows members to freely leave as I have? How can a religion be a cult that doesn't bother trying to get two of my brothers to go back to church?

Because I know the difference between open and closed cults, that's why, you moron. You make no cogent arguments, just rants about how everyone else is stupid. When that isn't enough, you make things up. You preach hate in the name of truth, but it isn't. Once again, you are an bigoted ignoramus, a pathological liar and a hypocrite.

Sure, we know about, and question the religious beliefs of every presidential candidate but Romney, but to do so for him is bigotry, right? You're not only a moron but a hypocrite.

Look, I'm sorry you were dumb enough to buy the Mormon bullshit for however long you did - you're stupid, but that's your fault, not mine. Now, after you've supposedly left, you're still here defending it. In other words, you're still stupid. Fool me once,… Please leave.

No - why don't you wise the fuck up? You're a cultist. You don't stand for reason against the forces of darkness, against ignorance, against frauds and con men - you defend them. That's who you are. You're ignorant at best and evil at worst. You don't care about anyone trapped in this bullshit - you want to give it more power. My neighbor was just telling me this morning about a friend of his who's losing his mind because he can't see his way out of this bullshit. Do you care? No. All yoiu care about is your little pastel colored nightmare - that you left.

You're a cold-hearted selfish fool, and what you think means as much to me as the shit I take each morning. You can't handle your beliefs being challenged? Tough.

What part of he took an oath to put the needs of his cult above the government didn't you catch?

Oh, I caught that, multiple times. So what? What, exactly, do you think his church is going to ask him to do?

Romney is Mormon because he was born into a Mormon family, raised a Mormon, and never found a reason to leave. For you, that last fact is a deal-breaker. For the rest of us, it's one piece of information we use to assess the man as a whole.

As far as I can see, no one here is saying you can't question Romney on his Mormonism. Pointing out that Obama criticizing Romney for being Mormon opens up Obama to criticism for sitting in Rev Wright's church for 20 years is not the same thing as saying "shut up, don't you dare ask Romney about his faith."

It's really too bad there won't ever be a huge article in the NYT about it. Obviously everyone has been cowed into silence.

O.K., that was fun. Now I'ma go watch a movie called The White Ribbon, about the kind of evil that led up to the Nazis taking over. It ought to be a nice primer for what you lames have planned for us. It, too, is about a nice, pious, backwards-looking people who unleashed hell on anyone who stood in their way.

But before I go, I'll remind you my questions regarding Romney's oath to the cult were never answered, my link to Mormonism's current racism was never addressed, and - except for talking about what nice people the Mormons some of you know are - the repeated child molestations, rampant cases of fraud, and other issues of Utah were (once again) quickly forgotten because you're all deluded with having the follower of a con man con you, too.

Romney is Mormon because he was born into a Mormon family, raised a Mormon, and never found a reason to leave. For you, that last fact is a deal-breaker.

Yes, because I think a president should have a mind. He should be curious, and hard-headed, and not gullible and weak. Anyone dumb enough to stick with the Joseph Smith story when it can be debunked on Google in minutes is unworthy of the office - and the rest of you are asking for trouble by not demanding it.

As far as I can see, no one here is saying you can't question Romney on his Mormonism. Pointing out that Obama criticizing Romney for being Mormon opens up Obama to criticism for sitting in Rev Wright's church for 20 years is not the same thing as saying "shut up, don't you dare ask Romney about his faith."

No, but screaming "Bigotry" for it is. And just because you question Romney doesn't mean you have to go after Obama for Wright, unless you're playing the stupid tit-for-tat partisan political game. You might as well be in cult yourself for how limited that thinking is. They're two separate issues, deserving of two separate responses - but to morons, one has to be connected to the other. It's insanity to the extreme. Can't you people think "outside the box" as you're so fond of saying? Maybe if you were, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

It's really too bad there won't ever be a huge article in the NYT about it. Obviously everyone has been cowed into silence.

I'll say it again:

You don't even know the questions to ask. Like the Romney/Wright issue, you're trapped into patterns of thinking - scream "bigotry" whenever the questions come up! - that bear no connection to reality. And anyone who doesn't think like you gets attacked, so you kill off your best defense against disaster. You're your own worst enemy.

You're basically saying, if your neighbor is holding a girl hostage in his basement, it's fine with you as long as he keeps his lawn nice.

The fact his nice lawn is the cover he uses to do his dirty work is irrelevant. When someone shows up with evidence of his crimes, you'll say, "Fred? No way! Look at that lawn!" like his grass has any bearing on his guilt or innocence.

And how did Fred fool you for all those years? You have no idea so you can't imagine how he could in the future.

I love how everyone has only a passing interest in cultism and, since their vision of "some mass Mormon thing" doesn't seem likely, they brush off anything else happening. (Hey - who thought of 9/11 after the first WTC bombing?) You just never know with freaks.

The saddest thing is nobody wants to stand up for reason. So Mitt Romney believes in crazy shit - make him president anyway! We need a president who believes crazy shit now more than ever. Who cares how steep the slope is, from George Washington to Mitt Romney? We have no choice.

I predict the rate of suicides to increase dramatically in the next few years - not that it should bother you,...

Nothing should bother you - you're BEGGING for it.

The downfall of this country is the only thing that'll satisfy you, so go for it.

Crack: why don't you wise the fuck up? You're a cultist. You don't stand for reason against the forces of darkness, against ignorance, against frauds and con men - you defend them. That's who you are. You're ignorant at best and evil at worst.

Preach it brother!

Oh sorry, I forgot we're pretending you're an athiest. And that you're not leading an Anti-cult cult.

Or are you saying he's complicit, because he has knowledge that these things are happening now within his religion, and he goes-along-to-get-along?

Or are you just ranting because Mormons have, in the past, done horrible things?

Or are you saying that he should have turned his back on his family, his upbringing, everything that led to his formation as a man, because Mormons have, in the past, done horrible things?

Or is it all of the above?

Let me ask you, Joan:

Are you complicit? What have you done to stop these specific things? I've been on this blog for years, and have told many a tale of stopping rape, saving lives, and stopping fraud. How about you and the rest of my accusers - have you ever done your part or do you leave the heavy lifting to angry loudmouthed black guys as you encourage giving power to someone who can't turn his back on it because it's part of "everything that led to his formation as a man"?

The black community formed everything that led to my formation as a man - do I sound like I'm in their pocket? Do you see me screaming "I am Trayvon" and marching with Al Sharpton and a mob intent on beating a white man for revenge? Or do I think for myself, act like a man, and if that means I go down protecting that white man from "my people" (as Eric Holder likes to say) then so be it?

Why me, Joan? Why is it always me and not Romney - or you? Or Joe? Or any of these other losers who "goes-along-to-get-along?" Where is your responsibility? What SHOULD you be doing, rather than breaking my singular pair of balls? Who have I hurt? I've got no cult. Isn't that the joke around here? The Crack Emcee - the cult of one? Yet everyone's determined to shut me down. Well, let me tell you something:

I guarantee you there's someone crying tonight because of the fucking Mormons. There's someone scared tonight because of the fucking Mormons. There's someone confused tonight because of the fucking Mormons. There's someone contemplating suicide tonight - if they haven't done it - because of the fucking Mormons.

Not because of The Crack Emcee, but because of the pious assholes followers of nonsensical con games you motherfuckers think are just what this country needs.

So how innocent are any of you, Joan? Because as far as I can tell, none of you are worth a shit when it comes to the reality of what you do. All you sonsabitches want to do is sweep reality under the rug for as long as possible so, one day, it can leap out at us with some fresh horror any of you could've stopped by not acting like children putting your hands over eyes and ears every time the truth is spoken.

You're all guilty. Guilty as sin, as the saying goes, because you won't even look to see if any of it is true - just like Romney. None of you are fit to lead anything.

Especially any questioning of the likes of me.

Go find another thread where Ann can dazzle you with another of her profundities, like what wonderful parents Mitt and his wife are, raising their kids to accept lies as truth and everything's fine as long as they're not the ones getting hurt by the "church."

That's clearly the speed the rest of you are comfortable maneuvering at, and I'm getting sick of you and trying to save your skins from the likes of them.

Paddy, no problem. I was just ciphering around looking for the passage, and got to the Matthew one first.

You do see my perplexity with Quayle's response, don't you? Having spent a bit of time in some of the further reaches of Dispensationalism, I perhaps have an overdeveloped "Non-explantion Explanation" detector.

Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars---and yet they have done it themselves.

What's painful is your lack of integrity. Your lack of intellectual curiosity. The way you accept a cult's claims on face value, like a cultist ever said they were in one while they were enthralled with it, or the cult ever told the truth as a way to keep people in it.

Romney will be our president - you lames will insure it - but we didn't have to go there. I've said all along that anyone could've beat Obama and the economy would improve - so what else are we potentially getting in this transaction?

Unfortunately, you simpletons haven't given that much thought at all,...

The Romney's marriage is strong because they love each other deeply and will do anything for the other to keep it that way. I assure you like any marriage they have had many lows, but many more highs and how they navigate the travails of the minefields that is life and marriage is what makes them who they are together.

The leftards love to wash away the aloofness of the current residents of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. as if by mere magic, the perpetually sneering Mrs. Obama will fly away to some local first while telling us what to eat and when and how, to be followed by her beta male husband after one of his golf games, beer summits, and waffle/arugala eating sessions flies in after her.

No, I am not complicit. When I see something wrong is happening, I speak up to set it right. I have never been aware of criminal activity (other than occasional recreational drug use by friends in high school and college days) among my friends, family, acquaintances, church, or business associates. If I had been, I would have done something about it.

That's why I asked you, quite specifically, to define your accusations. Why you? Because you're the one making all the dire predictions. I'm trying to connect the dots here. Romney swore an oath to his church, and...what? Mormonism was founded by a fraud, and....what?

You keep ducking the questions, turning them back on me, or you. Go ahead and call me stupid again, but I really do want to know what you're resting your fears on. Because I just don't see Mormons taking over the US government and subverting our culture and way of life as something that could realistically happen. Apparently, you do.