Hello all. I have followed the thread about the Tascam v Edriol, etc., but would like to know what other systems others may be using and their opinions. Are external microphones a must or can internals do the job with certain model recorders? Are all using stand-alone recorders or anyone recording directly to their computer/lap-top, etc.? I would like to know what some of my options are. I play a Baldwin 7' in a 13'x14' study with 12' vaulted ceiling, so there is plenty of sound (pianissimos in such a setting are very difficult). Ideas?

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

I'm a believer in getting a really good recorder for home use and using external microphones through the XLR jacks available on the recorder. When I was researching the market, what I found was basically three tiers, although this is, of course, a simplification: Small portable recorders, tabletop models, and very much higher priced professional recording studio equipment. So for making home recordings I looked at that middle market of tabletop models. In the end I decided on the Korg MR-1000.

Here are the Korg specs:

"High Fidelity 1-bit/5.6MHz Recording in a Tabletop/Portable Unit!If you want the advantage of archiving your final mixes in the studio with technology previously only available to major record labels, the Korg MR-1000 desktop/portable recorder, offers you the pristine fidelity and flexibility of 1-bit technology (used for the SACD format). It's also an excellent choice for location recording, broadcast journalism, live music performances - even for rehearsals and song-writing sessions. By recording in 1-bit/5.6MHz format you are assured that your most important, once-in-a-lifetime moments are captured in stunning detail, and ready for whatever the future brings you. And back in the studio it also provides superb final mix and archiving benefits. The menu selector in this unit is very easy to use.

High-quality 1-bit/5.6MHz recording and playbackThe MR-1000 is the perfect tool for the professional who wants to record and archive their final mixes in the studio, while its compact size and portability make it ideal for location recording. Whatever the use, you get the benefit of capturing it at the new high 5.6MHz rate. After recording and editing all your tracks in the DAW/hardware system of your choice, you can mix directly, or via an analog summing mixer, to the MR-1000. This gives you the superb fidelity of high-rate1-bit technology, which when transferred to your computer can be converted to the mastering format of your choice thanks to AudioGate. And backing up in 1-bit format "future proofs" your mix for potential reuse in the future.

Top-quality Preamps and USBThe table-top MR-1000 includes combination XLR/ 1/4" input connectors with top quality microphone preamps, phantom power and built-in limiting. Both XLR and RCA outputs are provided for maximum flexibility. High speed USB connectivity allows easy file transfer to and from a computer. The MR-1000 runs on AC power or via AA batteries for mobile freedom.

Free Integrated SoftwareThe MR-1000 comes with Korg's innovative and powerful AudioGate software for Mac and PC. AudioGate can convert 1-bit recordings into WAV and AIFF formats at various bit-rates (and vice versa) and offers real-time conversion and playback of 1-bit files. It also does essential functions like DC offset removal, gain control, and fade in/out. The combination of these recorders and this exclusive software makes the perfect system for both capturing and preserving your critical projects and source recordings. This archiving capability that had only been the domain of the major record companies and top studios is now available for everyone!

Real World FeaturesThe MR-1000 also supports multiple recording formats including DSDIFF, DSF, and WSD 1-bit formats, as well as multi-bit PCM format (BWF) with resolutions up to 24-bit/192kHz. Both the MR-1000 and the MR-1 feature internal 40GB hard drives for ample recording times, and USB 2.0 connection for fast and easy transfer of files between the recorder and your computer.

Mics are another matter. The best for piano are small diaphragm omnidirectional condenser mics in my opinion. Why small diaphragm? Because large diaphragm mics are great for voice, flute, etc. But piano sound is full of overtones making the sound far more complex. Small diaphragms are far more flexible and nimble in responding to complexities. Why omni-directional? Classical sound, unlike jazz, has to be finished and blended sound, not sound in the making. That means placing mics not in or next to the piano, but away from the piano. That, plus capturing ambient sound in the recording room, really calls for the richer sounding omni-directionals rather than directional cardioid mics (unless you need to avoid extraneous sounds). Condenser microphones are rugged, accept miniaturized components, and are highly responsive.

I use a matched pair of Earthworks TC-20 stereo mics. I selected these because they deliver pure, natural and neutral sound--no coloration whatsoever (not unlike the Russian Oktava microphones). They have slightly higher noise, but they are designed for capturing loud instruments like the piano.

I generally record in WAV, transfer the file through the USB2 cable to the PC, convert WAV to MP3 and post. (That is one step versus going from DSD (1 bit) to WAV to MP3.

Back when I used analog recording equipment, there was a jumble of components and a jungle of connectors. With my digital setup, I now do it all with the Korg MR-1000, the matched pair of Earthworks TC-20 mics on mic stands, two high quality 20' Monster cables (no shielding needed for home use) connecting the mics to the XLR inputs on the Korg, and one Belknap USB2 cable with gold fittings for file transfers. That's it!

David

_________________"Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities." David April

Last edited by Rachfan on Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Wow David! That was a lot of info and it definitely sounds like you know what you're talking about. Thank you for the extensive post. I will be discussing your ideas with someone who did sound engineering in college and is also coming up with some suggestions for me. (BTW, you don't work for Korg do you? )Eddy

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

To the recording engineers out there , here is what one friend of mine offerred to me as a recomendation. You'll note it has no recorder; instead, the point is to use the computer for that with an interface.

He said, "Here is a list of Gear to look at. I have underlined the recommendations for your budget. The more expensive stuff is better quality. Most of this gear I have worked with at some point in time, and have found to be good quality."

No, I don't work for Korg. I'm now retired from health care, but I do work part-time as a senior executive in health care for a local agency. I closely control my time commitment, as I don't want work significantly interfering with retirement!

Their sales engineers listen to your application, needs and expectations and then make recommendations that will also fall within your budget guidelines as well. If necessary they also research product questions you might have right up through the manufacturers if necessary. They also have a 30 day return, no questions asked policy. They even follow up later on to see if you're satisfied with your purchases. Their product catalog is huge. I enjoyed working with them to determine the better choices to meet my needs.

There is one mic your friend didn't mention that I believe you should add to the list:

Audio-Technica AT4022 mics ($349.00 each). These were designed for piano. Had I not liked the Earthworks TC-20s, these AT4022's would have been my next choice.

David

_________________"Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities." David April

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_________________"Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities." David April

As a professional recording engineer (for example, I recorded/edited/mastered all of the Feltsman's recordings of the past 10 years, or so) I'd go that far as advise you not even think of buying anything until you try it out... esp. microphones! It is like (I hope) you never consider marrying a woman based on your friends suggestions. Somehow you'll need to try it, first. Try to find studios or places you can rent stuff, or at least, make sure there are acceptable return policies (for example, Guitar Center does not allow returns on the microphones).

In principle, there are four ways of recording piano in a room:

A-B with omni microphones (Jecklin disk would be an excellent addition), ORTF, Blumlein with ribbons, and MS (if you are a tech geek and omnies or ribbons do not work in your environment).

Each of them has cons and pros. Generally, the most natural sound will give you omnies and ribbons in Blumlein. The MS is very good if you have problematic room, as it gives you a lot more freedom in tweaking.

It is very hard to advise which one would be the best for your particular instrument and room. It really depends on the room acoustical treatment (which is by far the most important factor after the instrument itself), reflections, besides obvious factor as piano itself.

As an electronics and microphone designer/engineer/technician I know pretty much every single mic on the market, but before we start, the main thing would be what is your budget and how much you are willing to spend for the entire recording rig (incl. stand, cables, etc.)? It is important to notice, even with a very limited budget you could still make beautiful recordings and there are some real bargains. For example, Studio Projects SP4 mics are very good for piano and come with a set of cardioid and omni capsules (so you can cover lots of different recording techniques) and can be had for quite cheap, esp. second hand (which is perfectly fine, esp. considering SP legendary customer service). If anything, stay away from Earthworks SR20 cardioids.

Generally, I always prefer a dedicated recorder, but if you have something like M-box you will also get Pro-Tools. As any other computer sound card the M Box quality as a preamp is not nearly up to professional standards--muffled and grainy, but once you sorted out the mics you can always add a dedicated Preamp and A/D converter later, using Mbox SPDIF input, which is fine. If you decide to use computer route make sure it does not make any noises. Usually, Mac is much better in this department.

The general rule of thumb, any successful recording is not about your gear, but most of all 1) Performer, and 2) Recording engineer (i.e. microphone positioning and post production), so be prepared to practice and spend countless hours on finding the best microphone position (which often will drive you crazy ). Also, as a general rule, something people often neglect, I cannot stress enough importance that it would be by far more wise to invest into the room treatment, rather than gear. Even something as simple as a few bass traps (which BTW, can be inexpensively made very attractive in form of panels, or pedestals, etc.) can make dramatic difference. Remember, you don't want to damp or deaden your room. On the contrary, you want the room lively (like a concert hall), so you need to rather CONTROL reflections.

Do you have any recordings made in your room on your piano? What microphones did you use? What was their positioning? How far the piano from the wall? Any chance to see a few pics of the room (include furniture, etc.) Are you technically inclined, or prefer something like plug and forget?

Marik, I guess its official; you and I are talking again! Let's get one thing straight right away: Is it actually you playing the 4th Ballade, or someone else? I can't imagine a recording engineer being able to play like that?

Marik wrote:

As a professional recording engineer (for example, I recorded/edited/mastered all of the Feltsman's recordings of the past 10 years, or so) I'd go that far as advise you not even think of buying anything until you try it out... esp. microphones! It is like (I hope) you never consider marrying a woman based on your friends suggestions. Somehow you'll need to try it, first. Try to find studios or places you can rent stuff, or at least, make sure there are acceptable return policies (for example, Guitar Center does not allow returns on the microphones).

Sorry to disappoint, but trying stuff out would be impracticable. I will need to make a purchase and learn to work it to the best advantage.

Marik wrote:

In principle, there are four ways of recording piano in a room: A-B with omni microphones (Jecklin disk would be an excellent addition), ORTF, Blumlein with ribbons, and MS (if you are a tech geek and omnies or ribbons do not work in your environment).

Each of them has cons and pros. Generally, the most natural sound will give you omnies and ribbons in Blumlein. The MS is very good if you have problematic room, as it gives you a lot more freedom in tweaking.

Marik, could you illuminate this jargon a bit? I have no idea what you're talking about (A-B, ORTF [makes me think of ORIF= Open-reduction, internal fixation: for fractures], etc.)

Marik wrote:

It is very hard to advise which one would be the best for your particular instrument and room. It really depends on the room acoustical treatment (which is by far the most important factor after the instrument itself), reflections, besides obvious factor as piano itself.

As an electronics and microphone designer/engineer/technician I know pretty much every single mic on the market, but before we start, the main thing would be what is your budget and how much you are willing to spend for the entire recording rig (incl. stand, cables, etc.)? It is important to notice, even with a very limited budget you could still make beautiful recordings and there are some real bargains. For example, Studio Projects SP4 mics are very good for piano and come with a set of cardioid and omni capsules (so you can cover lots of different recording techniques) and can be had for quite cheap, esp. second hand (which is perfectly fine, esp. considering SP legendary customer service). If anything, stay away from Earthworks SR20 cardioids.

Generally, I always prefer a dedicated recorder, but if you have something like M-box you will also get Pro-Tools. As any other computer sound card the M Box quality as a preamp is not nearly up to professional standards--muffled and grainy, but once you sorted out the mics you can always add a dedicated Preamp and A/D converter later, using Mbox SPDIF input, which is fine. If you decide to use computer route make sure it does not make any noises. Usually, Mac is much better in this department.

I have a PC laptop (HP Pavilion dv6768se) and that is unchangeable. I'm trying to keep this to <$1500. Don't laugh.

Marik wrote:

The general rule of thumb, any successful recording is not about your gear, but most of all 1) Performer, and 2) Recording engineer (i.e. microphone positioning and post production), so be prepared to practice and spend countless hours on finding the best microphone position (which often will drive you crazy ). Also, as a general rule, something people often neglect, I cannot stress enough importance that it would be by far more wise to invest into the room treatment, rather than gear. Even something as simple as a few bass traps (which BTW, can be inexpensively made very attractive in form of panels, or pedestals, etc.) can make dramatic difference. Remember, you don't want to damp or deaden your room. On the contrary, you want the room lively (like a concert hall), so you need to rather CONTROL reflections.

Very happy at what I highlighted above. Can a couple of overstuffed chairs or an ottmon serve as a bass trap? (the dimensions of my room are listed above in this thread)

Marik wrote:

Do you have any recordings made in your room on your piano? What microphones did you use? What was their positioning? How far the piano from the wall? Any chance to see a few pics of the room (include furniture, etc.) Are you technically inclined, or prefer something like plug and forget? Best, M

I have no recordings made with this piano in this room (but hope to in another month). Below are several photos to give a lay of the land (including a couple interesting (I think) details. Your counsel on this matter is very much appreciated.OUCH! The pictures are SO BIG on preview! Titles just above on left. Best to view at 50% viewing size. Also Marik, given the size of this post with photos, it would probably be best not to quote, but just reply. Thanks.

Marik, I guess its official; you and I are talking again! Let's get one thing straight right away: Is it actually you playing the 4th Ballade, or someone else? I can't imagine a recording engineer being able to play like that?

Eddy,

First, I never actually stopped talking to you. Indeed, we had a brief argument, but I see it rather as a miscommunication... as if we were just talking different languages, but that's OK.

Second (re: 4th Ballade), if you have any doubts that this is my recording then you can also listen to my recording of Feinberg 6th Sonata, which was a part of my DMA thesis (yes, in piano performance), and got some important fundings to get completed. You can also PM with your email and I can send you a copy of my Diploma along with addresses rather famous people who can confirm that this is still me.

But I understand you, as in recording and electronics engineering world I always get exactly the same reaction (only with vc. vs. activities) .

musical-md wrote:

Marik wrote:

In principle, there are four ways of recording piano in a room: A-B with omni microphones (Jecklin disk would be an excellent addition), ORTF, Blumlein with ribbons, and MS (if you are a tech geek and omnies or ribbons do not work in your environment).

Each of them has cons and pros. Generally, the most natural sound will give you omnies and ribbons in Blumlein. The MS is very good if you have problematic room, as it gives you a lot more freedom in tweaking.

Marik, could you illuminate this jargon a bit? I have no idea what you're talking about (A-B, ORTF [makes me think of ORIF= Open-reduction, internal fixation: for fractures], etc.)

I have a PC laptop (HP Pavilion dv6768se) and that is unchangeable. I'm trying to keep this to <$1500. Don't laugh.

No need to laugh, I believe, this is a good budget for quality equipment in your environment. as always, the quality can be only as good as the weakest link and we are not talking about commercial recordings made in a beautiful, professionally designed concert hall on a beautiful Steinway D, with a tuner from Steinway factory staying by for the entire recording. So there is no need for overkill.

In your situation for the recorder, my suggestion would go for Korg MR1000 (street price around $900), for the microphones Studio Projects C4 with two sets of capsules. Those I'd get second hand (some $250 for a pair) and look for the first version (without switches)--they often appear on ebay. With those you will very quickly figure out the concept, whether you need omni capsules, or cardioids (or even use either set for different repertoire, or required atmosphere/ambience, etc.). Sooner or later you will outgrow them, but won't lose money selling them back (those are always in demand). By that time you will be already recording like a real pro and know exactly what to look for.

The rest will go for cables (I'd take Canare or Litz--don't take cheap stuff), stereo bar, microphone stand, good quality headphones (I work on AKG K240 60 Ohm version, but really depends on what you are used to) and some connectors to hook the recorder to your system to enjoy what you just have recorded.If you are lucky, you might still have some $$$ left for a bottle of good wine, cognac, or Scotch, whichever you prefer.

Quote:

I have no recordings made with this piano in this room (but hope to in another month). Below are several photos to give a lay of the land (including a couple interesting (I think) details. Your counsel on this matter is very much appreciated.

It is actually not bad at all!--much better than most of the places. Your main enemy is parallel surfaces. You might want to experiment with curtains over the glass entrance door (if it is an option), but the entire wall with the books (hard to see on the picture, but I assume there is no glass in front of the book on the shelves) is the perfect wave reflector. The window is good. If you hear some Zzzzzz, then most likely this is the shutters, so experiment with those.

Marik, Thanks for your recommendation after reviewing it all. I won't be going the dedicated-recorder route for budget reasons, so I plan to use my laptop and the Mbox2. One last question. I noticed that the frequency range for the SP C4s begins at 40 Hz (higher than the lowest notes on piano). Would you recommend used SP C4s over new Shure KSM140s? (Ok one more question: Where did you do your DMA work?)Eddy

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

Marik, Thanks for your recommendation after reviewing it all. I won't be going the dedicated-recorder route for budget reasons, so I plan to use my laptop and the Mbox2. One last question. I noticed that the frequency range for the SP C4s begins at 40 Hz (higher than the lowest notes on piano). Would you recommend used SP C4s over new Shure KSM140s? (Ok one more question: Where did you do your DMA work?)Eddy

I think the Mbox2 will be reasonable to start, with good potential to upgrade, once you feel ready.

The frequency range in microphones very much depends on how you measure it, which is very different from company to company. Also, to get an accurate anechoic chamber measurements of the lowest frequencies is extremely difficult and most of the companies cannot do it. It is also important to notice, the frequency response should be given within a certain range (I prefer to see -3dB) it's been measured. There is a big difference between 40Hz within -3dB, and say 30Hz within -10dB. In general, other than some omni capsules, almost no cardioid mics will give you a solid -1dB even at 30Hz. But still, that would not give you an accurate picture about your particular situation. When the instrument is in the room the low frequencies will be augmented by the room (hence bass traps) and also, very important factor is a so called proximity effect of the microphone. But that was kind of long answer, in short, no, the advertised 40Hz is not a problem for the piano recording. I am usually much more suspicious when I see some 20Hz-25KHz response (of course, unless it is coming from some respected company like DPA, or Schoeps, which anyway are way over your budget).

I am not sure about what is KSM140 and assume you meant KSM141. It is a fine microphone, but because of the construction (switchable omni+cardioid in one body) neither pattern is really highly optimized. For the price the C4 might be one of the greatest bargains and can beat many much more expensive mics for piano. I'd still go with them and once you really learn your recording environment well and know what setup works best for you, then upgrade to exact TYPE needed, however impractical that route might sound.

And to answer your last question, I got my DMA at ASU, but that was rather formality. I believe my main training I got much earlier, at the Moscow Conservatory.

OUCH! The pictures are SO BIG on preview! Titles just above on left. Best to view at 50% viewing size. Also Marik, given the size of this post with photos, it would probably be best not to quote, but just reply.

Such huge pictures are extremely irritating (at least they are to me) as they cause text and buttons to wrap off the screen. You are advised to attach pictures no wider than ca. 1000 pixels, so they fit comfortably on even a small screen. These seem a bit grainy to start with, and the huge format does them no favors.

BTW - Never mind your diaphragms, cables and omnis, but I'll expect a recording of that cute Ode de Cologne piece now

NB - Just found out that in the forum parameters we can set maximum dimensions I've promptly set that to 1000 x 1000 pixels. For anyone working with images I recommend the marvelous free program IrfanView, which makes it real easy to crop and resize images.

OUCH! The pictures are SO BIG on preview! Titles just above on left. Best to view at 50% viewing size. Also Marik, given the size of this post with photos, it would probably be best not to quote, but just reply.

Such huge pictures are extremely irritating (at least they are to me) as they cause text and buttons to wrap off the screen. You are advised to attach pictures no wider than ca. 1000 pixels, so they fit comfortably on even a small screen. These seem a bit grainy to start with, and the huge format does them no favors.

BTW - Never mind your diaphragms, cables and omnis, but I'll expect a recording of that cute Ode de Cologne piece now

NB - Just found out that in the forum parameters we can set maximum dimensions I've promptly set that to 1000 x 1000 pixels. For anyone working with images I recommend the marvelous free program IrfanView, which makes it real easy to crop and resize images.

I agree! Good that you found that limiting function. The pictures were just iPhone camera pictures. To close this thread, I just took the plunge! I purchased an MBox2 (with software) and pair of Shure KSM141 microphones, pair of Canare Star-Quad cables, etc. Now I've got to finish preparing my program, tweak the piano and spool up on becoming a recording engineer. I hope to have some stuff ready by the end of the month.

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

If you decide to purchase anything new, don't forget Sweetwater as a possible vendor. You're right, it's often difficult to try gear out first. But as I had mentioned, Sweetwater has the 30-day return policy. So if after a fair trial you're dissatisfied, just send it back to them for a full refund. They're very accommodating there.

BTW: Marik is a genius not only in the art of piano, but also in knowing recording gear and options like the back of his hand. He's the best!

David

_________________"Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities." David April

Well David, you make me blush, although I have to admit, if to be completely honest, I like the way you are thinking .

Looking back at my response I just paid attention I was not clear enough. Not that this is all that important, but still, meticulous and scientific approach wins :

I noticed that the frequency range for the SP C4s begins at 40 Hz (higher than the lowest notes on piano).

In order to make a frequency response plot the companies use an anechoic chamber--the bigger the it is the lower frequency it is certified for. The advertised response starting @ 40Hz means ONLY that their anechoic chamber is certified down to that figure (which is pretty darn GOOD!!!). It absolutely does not mean that actual microphone response starts there. Usually, at the low bandwidth extreme the response falls some 6-12 dB per octave, depending on the design, so looking at the graph, it should be is still pretty solid at some 30Hz.

Well today I was supposed to get all my new stuff, but alas 20" of snow since last night in NW ARKANSAS! means there will be no deliveries for at least 2-3 days. But there is the piano that awaits me now. (Please excuse the starting of a sentence with a conjunction. )

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

Have hit the first glich right out of the box! The software for the Pro Tools LE (recording interface) isn't loading onto my laptop (has Vista but is supposed to be compatable). Of course, customer service is closed on the weekends so I'll have to wait until Monday to see if I can get some help.(Currently reading 100 Yards to the Out House, by Willy Mayckit & Betty Wohnt, a spectacular read)

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

Of course Monday (yesterday) was a holiday (in the US) so they were closed, but today, after many hours of: waiting (on hold for 1 hour and 3 minutes before they got to me), talking, downloading (over 1 hour), and installing (almost one hour), I can say I have an operable system. Now all I have to do is A.) figure out how to use it all to the best advantage, and B.) be ready to record something.

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

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