What my military training tells me is to gather the facts and analyze before I react and publically make an ass out of myself (or in my line of work, die or make a bad situation worse). I realize you have a job to do, but I'll submit you went about it in the wrong way. From my vantage point, your comment about "nice trespassing shots" puts the blame on the photographer, as if he willy-nilly walked in there and took photos on railroad property. My stance was, "Hey, maybe he asked someone there if he could take some shots" and whoever he asked said yes. Regardless, maybe if you had some discipline, you would have talked to your employees first about the issue and then contacted the photographer off list before publically posting "nice JVRR trespassing shots" for all to see and open yourself up to comments/criticism.

And how do you know that he didn't gather any facts before posting this? There were several days between the initial post and his, I'm sure he had plenty of time to make a phone call or two; Kevin likely called up the local management to ask if he had permission, to which they likely said no...because as I suspect, it was a blue collar guy who "gave him permission." And even if the boss asked if anyone gave him permission, it's not like they're going to fess up to something where they know they were in the wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ween

Since you missed it, my point was that perhaps Mr. Kitchen believed he HAD PERMISSION to be where he was because he ASKED one of the employees if he could be there to shoot some photos. As such, the other point I was making is that, to me, it appeared Kevin blamed the photog FIRST without gathering the facts (i.e. did Mr. Kitchen ask if he could be there to take some photos?). Do you know if Mr. Kitchen asked any of the employees if he could take some photos there? If not, then your position is weak; I actually know the answer to that question...

Asking if you can take some photos and asking if you can enter private property are very different things. On top of that, I wouldn't trust the word of a non-management figure with regard to a matter such as this since in virtually every instance they have no authority to grant such access (and non-management figures are generally the only ones we encounter while out shooting). If a stranger walks up to your door, your 6 year old son (hypothetical) answers it, the man asks if he can "explore" your house, and your 6 year old son says yes, it's meaningless - the hypothetical man didn't have "permission," he'd have to talk ideally to the head of the household about that one. But I'm sure my example will also be "weak" since it goes against what you think...

What Kevin was doing was letting it be known that trespassing on his railroad's property would not be tolerated, and it's better to make such statements public instead of waiting until someone does it and contacting them privately - if it's not public knowledge, they can at least partially claim ignorance (barring any "no trespassing" signs or other obvious property borderlines). No one likes being called out, but if you're in the wrong (whether you realize it or not), it's bound to happen - take it like a man instead of whining about how socially unacceptable it is (I'm pretty sure this is what Kevin was getting at - it seems like many participants on this forum are overly sensitive to this sort of thing and don't want to admit when they're in the wrong, but would rather go down in a "blaze of glory").

As for Kevin being banned, it was per his own request - he was getting fed up with you in particular, Ween, and decided that instead of wasting his time trying to explain it to you, he'd just admit that it's not worth his time and leave. Banning his account also eliminated any temptation of returning later on.

And for what it's worth, it's this sort of behavior that has gotten railfans permanently banned from so many shortlines I used to frequent up here - not so much the trespassing (even though it is blatantly illegal), but mouthing off to managers about it when confronted. You can cry civil rights, Joe Schmoe in his pick-up truck driving by told me I could wander down here, etc...but any way about it, if they say you're in the wrong, you're in their wrong - it's their property, and they dictate what goes on there. I can give so many examples of shortlines that used to bend over backwards for railfans up here that now call the cops on people like me, who had nothing but respect for the guys running the show, because one or two guys decided it was unjust that they were called out and felt the need to scream into a manager's face about it. Fine, maybe they feel like they were in the right about it...but now everyone else is permanently barred from the enjoyment they once had as a result. Know when to holster your guns, people...