I agree with Steve: I think Eckhart Tolle is 1st stage Spiritual. I don't see him promoting himSELF as "the answer" or "the way." I think he'd be much more prolific (more books coming out all the time, as if to convince everyone of his authority and promote his name/keep it in the media) if he were a 2nd stage Spiritual Soul.

With regard to Joseph Smith, I see someone like Warren Jeffs (a Sagittarius, interestingly enough, and the FLDS 'prophet' who was arrested for charges related to alleged arrangement of extralegal marriages between his adult male followers and underage girls) as a 3rd stage Consensus Soul. Man-made religion is for the consensus, in Wolf's words. So, to me, Joseph Smith using man-made religion, man-made laws regarding "right" and "wrong" behavior, etc., to motivate/manipulate people (depending upon your view) is a 3rd stage Consensus thing. His 'revelations' were for the Consensus, for those on a religious path -- not for those on a spiritual path to the Natural God (a very big difference!).

Of course, these are just my views. I think it's great to have a forum like this, where everyone can respectfully share views and opinions.

Just wanted to let you know that I WILL get to what little I know about the stages of samadhi. My energy level just isn't what it used to be and varies wildly from day to day and sometimes even hour to hour. Also, due to low oxygen levels, it just takes more effort to concentrate than it used to! LOL Just didn't want to leave you hanging.

It did not shock or dismay me at all. If you were to go the thread about Pluto's polarity points, started by Linda, you will find my story. It is rather long, so to briefly recap...I had been conditioned early by Catholicism and later by Mormonism, married a Mormon girl at age 21. For 17 years we were relatively happy and stable. Then, on a lark I went to an astrologer. Intrigued beyond what I'd have imagined, I sought more information. Jeff Green did my second reading at Astrology Et Al...before his first book. He wondered about my Pluto conjunct N Node in 9th...All these years later, Linda graciously helped me approach the Polarity point issue again, and wow, here is Jeff again, and his daughter, and all you wonderfully helpful loving people at this spiritual treasure chest.! Such a joy!

To shorten the story, I was fascinated. The truth of these things touched my Soul and I ceaselessly studied everything metaphysical I could get my hands on. I was drawn into, driven to go deeper... and it finally was a major element in ending the marriage. During the next 15 years, As T-Pluto entered my 12th, squared Sun, conjuncted Scorpio Moon (an exact square to N-Pluto/N Node), then crossed Asc an amazing transformation occurred within.

I understand and agree with everything you said, Steve. I worded the question as I did because my family is Mormon and I want to show respect for the fine and honorable people that Mormons are because there are many misunderstandings out there, so I guess I'm a little protective of them. At the same time I was interested in the forum’s views of Joseph Smith, the man.

This topic is hugely helpful for us new-comers to EA. As was mentioned above, these stages (second) MUST be gone thru, so there need be those to lead. No wrongs, no rights, just eternal progress (by the way, a major tenet of Mormonism is ‘ Eternal progression’)…the slowly awakening and expanding Soul as it returns to Source….so it’s quite possible That Joseph Smith was a necessity in the scheme of things? That’s kind of what I was wondering.

So, if it seemed a ‘leading question’, I apologize. As a result of your response I do see things more clearly now.

Thank you for your heartfelt and thoughtful response. All I can say is this path of Soul unfolding (not merely EA, but the Soul itself - EA is just a tool given us to assist in that process - not the cause, but like a roadmap) is long, slow, at times difficult, progressive, and in the end, the only real thing there is in all of this life.

"Earth " is not an easy reality to navigate, in anyone's book. As some have stated here before, the elements of Goddess's intent, Natural Law, are sharing, cooperation, and inclusion. And above all else, each lending a helping hand, when requested, to those they encounter who are sincerely trying to walk that path. That is the real purpose behind EA, and the reason for this message board existing. Obviously that is not the predominant paradigm operating on Earth at this point in time/space.

It is clear to me, from what you wrote, that getting from where you were to where you are was no small amount of changes. And I know the resistance, judgment, and misunderstanding that are an inevitable part of someone making that scale of changes. Of course, on one level, it is fated and inevitable, but few people know that when they are in the thick of those changes, and it takes a lot of courage to be willing to move in the intended new directions. The questioning of "am I crazy?", "is this right?", "am I making terrible decisions that I will regret?", and all the rest of it. And the growing realization that next to no one you know seems to be moving their own lives in any similar direction, they in fact seem quite content staying as they are.

EA, and this place, are really for people who are facing those issues in their own lives, grappling with making those changes, or, having already made them previously, wondering now "what do I do next?", "where am I going now?", etc.

This place is as a community of like-minded Souls, themselves busy engaging in individuating, and spiritually advancing. As a percentage of the population, the numbers are small, but there are many many people on such paths. And its often difficult to find others taking it as seriously as one is in their life. So here is a place such people can connect, find support, comfort, and learn some things in the process. And Souls who, like Stephen, know within themselves that their Soul's deepest desires are to help others with the same - to learn about the lessons they need to learn to prepare themselves so the help they offer is genuine, from their own life experiences of walking the path and going through the changes, not just tossing platitudes, slogans, and book advice at others.

Adina and I had a conversation earlier, and she is going to start a new post talking about her observations on evolutionary stages, how to spot them in people, and the types of questions and mistakes people new to this paradigm tend to make while learning about stages. Please all feel free to join in and ask questions, offer insights, etc.

Also, especially for those newer to EA, feel free at any time to start a post asking a question, like this one about 2nd stage spiritual. Discussing the application of EA "theory" to real life, real behavior, is a really important part of learning the paradigm. It doesn't start getting real, beyond the intellectual, until you start seeing that what EA is describing is not just concepts, but the deepest issues, patterns, and behaviors in someone's life, far beyond the realm we typically conceive of as "astrology".

A major reason for this board, for the practice charts people start, for the questions, is to help make it real for people.

When I used the term "osmose EA" yesterday, I meant exactly that. As the paradigm sinks ever deeper into one's consciousness it literally can change one's thinking, ways of perceiving life. Osmose is a Scorpio/Pluto word - it means more or less to completely and deeply merge with something - to ingest it, to become one with it. In the process it expands us beyond our present limits (Scorpio). That is the point of all this.

I also want to add another mini-plug - the reason we hold these EA conferences is not to make money (sometimes money is made, sometimes not so much) or to sell things, but primarily to give the live in-person experience of an EA community. Sitting in a room with people for 2 or 3 days when the whole atmosphere is all about EA jumpstarts that osmosis process. It gets very real very quickly. And then you are sitting with people with an orientation towards Natural Law, natural process of giving sharing inclusion. That to me is equally important to the material being presented, because that is where true osmosis occurs - its a way of life, an experience, a lot more than just ingesting some more information. I highly encourage anyone who is serious about learning EA to come to the October conference. There you will experience it in action, way beyond just learning about it. And the personal connections made do deepen and grow.Steve

Hi, wanted to say that this is a wonderful thread/discussion! I also wanted to add my thoughts about the 2nd stage spiritual. It seems to me that this stage is a "purification by fire." In other words, the evolutionary intentions of this stage is to test the Soul as its commitment to serving God/the Source in the context of "the final destruction of the ego in terms of identifying with itself). The bottom line is sincerity of intentions-if the Soul truly desires this type of transformation and wants to make the neccessary changes that must occur in this stage, then, wow, people like Yogananda and Sri Yuekestar and other masters are produced. Of course, there are examples of other Souls who do not make it mast this stage (as have allready been stated). In any case, the point I want to make is that it is a very intense phase of evolution but if the sincerity and intentions of the Soul are geniune then great results/growth occur.Deva

Hi all, thank you for this connection. I have a question about evolutionary stages and skipped steps, and wonder if it is the start of anew thread, but will post it here for now. I sense that when I am working in the area of my skipped steps my perception of my evolutionary condition seems to shift. Its as though when I work in the arenas of my skipped steps my view also returns the evolutionary condition I was in at the time I skipped the lesson. Is this possible? maybe it could explain some confusion for me around assessing evolutionary conditions and also how to embrace the nature and quality of the step I am learning to integrate this time around. Thank you to the river that carries this wisdom...Heather

Hi Heather, to me it sounds like you are describing either a transition into another evolutionary state, or resolving skipped steps carried over from the past. We all have left over issues to resolve, and in terms of identifying the evolutionary state always go for the "bottom line" orientation of the individual. The Soul can be "on the cusp" or transitioning from obe evolutionary state into the next (this can happen within any evolutionary states/conditions). When this happens, the Soul will express quaities of both evolutionary states, and flip flop back and forth between them untill the transition into the higher evolutionary state is fully integrated. If you have skipped steps in the chart, and are "on the cusp" of evolutionary states then this process is intensified, or magnified. it is not the first time the Soul has attempted to make the transition into the higher evolutionary state.Deva

Hi, wanted to say that this is a wonderful thread/discussion! I also wanted to add my thoughts about the 2nd stage spiritual. It seems to me that this stage is a "purification by fire." In other words, the evolutionary intentions of this stage is to test the Soul as its commitment to serving God/the Source in the context of "the final destruction of the ego in terms of identifying with itself). The bottom line is sincerity of intentions-if the Soul truly desires this type of transformation and wants to make the neccessary changes that must occur in this stage, then, wow, people like Yogananda and Sri Yuekestar and other masters are produced. Of course, there are examples of other Souls who do not make it mast this stage (as have allready been stated). In any case, the point I want to make is that it is a very intense phase of evolution but if the sincerity and intentions of the Soul are geniune then great results/growth occur.

thank you deva, that was clarifying. so the dyanmics of the entire chart are put to a test as any identification with ego is challenged.

each soul at that stage will be blind to the ways in which they are identified with their ego (otherwise identification wouldn't happen)- so the intensity of sketchiness or scoundralness that happens is dependent entirely upon how willing the soul is to cooperate with the evolutionary imperative of that stage.

is this a correct understanding? can we use osho as an example of a second stage spiritual and where according to ea he was not willing to fully surrender?