So God doesn't save any more Christians than he does non Christians, on average. You get the same result as if nothing was happening at all. You're finding a very convoluted way of maintaining your narrative, when it's completely unnecessary. Clearly you knew, without even having to look, that the statistics would not support your idea.

You now seem to be saying that God saves nicer people, who want to make the world better. Do you think this would be represented in statistics, or would just as many arse-holes survive relative to good people?

This also means that one of your reasons for choosing to be a Christian, avoiding car crashes, is of no benefit at all.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.

Well I'm saying people who care about there fellow man will make it to heaven and I'm saying if the person dies christian or not when god says its thier time its their time but god takes special favor towards believers. And god saves both believers and non believers if there a good person but see once you become a non back stabbing person you see the bible as leading a good life so you become christian anyway.

(12-03-2017 08:21 AM)socialistview Wrote: God saves non christians aswell just those who actually wanted to make this world a better place and not all christians he will save meaning god works with everbody but the best way of things happening in your life is that you have troubles first then rewards for your obedience. It says in the bible bless is the one who has his ttoibles young and its bad for one to have his troubles old. And he says if your of god and god wants you yourll have trouble in your life if not god doesn't care about you.

You are all over the map on this, the first part of your run-on sentence states that god "saves non Christians as well". So there is no difference between Christians and non Christians in terms of events; good or bad, in life.

Then the second part of your run-on sentence you assert there are "rewards" for Christians for obedience. You are contradicting yourself, then you misquote or just make up a bunch of shit the bible doesn't say and then concoct an unfalsifiable mess of assertions in the last part.

Here's an actual bible verse, not a bunch of made-up shit:

Matthew 5:45 - That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

So the bible is CLEARLY saying in that verse that there is no difference between the just and unjust and events in life that they endure.

For you to assert otherwise, is simply you operating within your own unexamined biases.

The bible says that there is no pass on life events, that this god will not save them from any of that. That doesn't say much to what an allegedly benevolent good that supposedly loves humanity SHOULD do, but it is honest enough about the reality of suffering in life.

In fact Jesus supposedly went around miraculously intervening in people's lives, even to the point of raising Lazarus from the dead, so it seems like this supposedly benevolent god has an idea of what benevolence means. Lazarus was raised from the dead without any decision on his part, so the theodicy of human choice fails in this instance.

Do you comprehende?

Here is a prophecy from Yoda:

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition

(12-03-2017 10:14 AM)socialistview Wrote: You need to say that for yourself heaven is a award read that whole chapter. god says he destroys the wicked in time.

The heaven excuse, another post-hoc rationalization about the failure of prayer that is supposed to work like it is presented in the bible, but doesn't.

Matthew 7:7-11
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. "Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?

"Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

Luke 11:9-13
"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? read more.

Matthew 21:22
"And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

John 14:13-14
"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

John 15:7
"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 16:23-24
"In that day you will not question Me about anything Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition

I've heard so many stories about some drink-driving arse hole who smashes into a car with a family of 4 in, killing them all while he walks away.

"Christianity: join today and God will save you from a car crash! Maybe. If he feels like it. He might just let you die. It's not like he could just save everyone, or remove the need to have cars in the first place. Wait, what was I saying? Oh yeah! Join up today and get a free Jesus sticker."

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.

(02-03-2017 05:27 AM)Robvalue Wrote: (1)If you truly believe a being out there somewhere is responsible for all this, and everything is happening according to its plan, then fine. Obviously I think it's an unecessary assumption and has no evidence to back it, but I don't care what you believe. But what I don't get is why you want to go and worship that creature.

(2)Of course, I know why, on the whole. Indoctrination. Fear. Social pressure. But it seems to me that people have rarely considered that they have a choice. Even if they think the Bible is "true", they don't have to be a Christian. If they think the Quran is "true", they don't have to be a Muslim. But instead, they almost all do, and spend the whole time making up excuses for why God is so incompetent and sadistic, just as with Stockholm Syndrome. Almost all apologetics, when not trying to prove religious texts to be true, sounds like a battered spouse to me: excusing the actions of their violent, crazy partner.

Regarding 1, I'm also uncertain about why worship would be necessary. If there is a life-form (lets call it L) out there who did create humanity, then would it be more rewarding for L to be worshiped by its creations, or would it be more rewarding for L's creations to value themselves and what they have to offer by growing in their own way and becoming independent, unique, and even more developed life-forms than L?

Regarding 2, when apologists defend their religious books, do they acknowledge that they were written by people and that people are prone to making errors? How do they know that the human prophets, who claimed to have communicated with their god, didn't make a mistake somewhere? How do apologists know that the foundations of their faith wasn't based on some form of confirmation bias? Also, if apologists claim to have spoken with their God, then do these experiences occur before they were socialized into religious belief systems or during and/or after their religious upbringing/socialization?

"I'm fearful when I see people substituting fear for reason." Klaatu, from The Day The Earth Stood Still (1951)