Contents

GDFL

Wikis on Wikia operate under GFDL, a free license that allows people to reuse the content in any way, as long as it's under the same license and links back to the original source. Wikia provides complete database dumps for anybody who wants them, so it's easy for people to move the content somewhere else if they want to. The moved content should link back to the original wiki, using a template like this.

There is no specific, explicit requirement to link to the original page (transformers.wikia.com/wiki/PAGENAME). There are specific requirements to make to licence your modifications under the GFDL, make that clear & link to it; make a "Transparent copy" (machine readable, copyable by other users) available; and to acknowledge the authorship of the article. Wikipedia suggests that one way to "partially fulfill" the latter is to "provid[e] a conspicuous direct link back to the Wikipedia article", but also notes that they reserve the right to delete the page & authorship history, and that wouldn't be enough in such a case. It suggests that an alternative is to preserve the page history, and to list the five most prominent authors (all, if <5) on the "title page"/top of the document.

If you do, answers.com - a prominent content aggregator, including from Wikipedia, has their notice in small letters in the page footer.

If it is necessary, it may only be necessary to do it on the history page.

Worth noting: we'll be importing the entire revision history, not just the current status of the page. So we don't have to link to anywhere to reflect that; it'll be on the wiki itself.

I definitely like the idea of putting it on the history page-- our original thought was to put it in the footer, like your answers.com example-- but that works even better. --Suki Brits 06:48, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Answers.com, however, is taking the content wholesale and representing it. And they were nto the authors of it.

Between us, the current TT1 userbase has the ORIGINAL rights to about 90% of the text on the wiki (the other 10% having been written by incidental people unaware of the move, and Rotty.) We could take those articles and leave without ever having to worry about GDFL-- just like McFeely ported the articles he wrote for Wikipedia about Cyclonus and Devastator over to here. He owned the full rights to them INDEPENDENT of their GDFL thing.

IMAGES include a 'auto uploaded by script...' in the page history when imported. I don't remember if normal pages do. If they DO... then we could probably modify the import script to specifically say Wikia.com, which would satisfy the legal obligation. (I'll check with Suki.) -Derik 17:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Normal pages don't, because there wouldn't be anywhere for the script to include it. The entire normal edit history is imported, so you get all the edit summaries. And... for what it's worth, unfortunately, I would imagine we would NEED the permission of that other 10% to get away with not mentioning Wikia somewhere, and unfortunately, that's a huge clusterfuck and not worth it. Especially since the fine print giving mention (not even a link) to our original host would be sufficient. --Suki Brits 03:48, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

AARGH!(continured)

Are the ads supposed to actually invisibly extend over the article so when you hover over the actual ad it becomes larger for more details? Which also makes it so when I am on, say, the omega supreme (g1) page, and I want to click the, Omega Supreme (disambiguation) link, I cant because it thinks I am clicking in the "adobe flash player 9" box that is over it. --Hammerstrike 00:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I downloaded Adblock Plus when the main page started recommending it (Thanks, guys!) and that's made my life a lot easier, but a somewhat obscure Firefox plugin shouldn't be a prerequisite for viewing the Wiki's pages as they were intended to be viewed. After reading through this whole ongoing argument, all I can say is "Yep, it's time to start packing our bags." As everyone else has noted, the only problem is making sure that we retain name recognition and that the community as a whole is well aware of the shift.--Inevitable Betrayal 03:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

i really think we should go now, most pages i go to now have multiple identical ads at the top! this makes things bad because they shove the rest of the page down so if the text loads before the ads (like on my computer) you can start reading then loose your place when the text jumps down! its been like this for a long time but not as bad as it is now! someone hurry up and get the new server set up!81.108.233.59 09:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

It gets worse...

Greetings. The wiki seems to be collapsing in on itself now. Whatever page I go on, except this one, an error window pops up saying that the internet cannot display the page and it aborts the operation, causing the page to go onto the "This page is not working" thing and I have to keep refreshing it, only to get the error box again and the whole process happens again. What in the world is going on? Evilgidgit 12:02, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I would blame this on whatever retarded ads Wikia are running for your IP/location. Where I am, I'm not encountering annoying ads, but I hear North Americans are getting the worst of it, being hit with animated, singing-dancing ones. And Wikia has no control over who submits what ad. They have to wait for us to report ads to them. --FFN 13:28, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I had the same problem a few days ago - at which point I said to myself, "the hell with Internet Explorer," and decided to install Firefox. - Chris McFeely 13:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

What the heck were you doing on Internet Explorer? As a geek you should be using Firefox or an alternative by default! (I'm forcing myself not to install Adblock, though). --FFN 15:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for calling me a geek. My computer and Firefox don't seem to like eachother, so I use Internet Explorer instead. Evilgidgit 11:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

He doesn't mean that anyone who uses IE as a geek. Just the opposite, in fact. He's calling McFeely a geek because he is one (in the best possible way), and any self-respecting geek would not use IE unless absolutely necessary. Which I, a geek who's dabbled in website-construction, wholly agree with. - Jackpot 17:27, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's what I meant. IE is painful and full of holes. My college's computers all use IE and navigating Wikia's wonderful new layout was simply a charming experience on it. --FFN 21:41, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

i only just expirienced that and when i clicked refresh it was fixed so maybe it isnt collapsing for everyone81.108.233.59 16:59, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm having the same problems as Evilgidgit is having. At first, I thought the site had been shut down and started up elsewhere. When I start at the front page, I quickly go to my watchlist in hopes of avoiding the abort message. However, I eventually get it, for which I either refresh the page or move on to another site. I'm too lazy to switch over to Firefox; besides, I don't like change. Sue me. If and when you guys move, please let us know. - Zadok Rox 03:10, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Zadok Rox, are you still getting this error window? We made a change yesterday that should have fixed it, and yours is the first report I've seen since then. Can you let me know if you still have the issue? (and anyone else of course) Thanks -- sannse (talk) 10:18, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've checked out several pages and no error messages (I was speaking of pass experiences and didn't realize that anything had been done yesterday). Praise the Lord! Thanks, Sannse and crew. - Zadok Rox 01:53, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm relatively new to the wiki, but I hate the idea of anything approaching Scorched Earth. It seems to me that abandoning the wiki is the best option. It almost certainly WILL get taken over by 'the wolves', at least in the short run. Eventually it'll probably be taken over by new admins who do care but have a differing vision, but is that such a bad thing? Encyclopedia Brittanica can coexist with Wikipedia, why can't the fun and humorous TF wiki coexist with the (possible eventual) humorless one? I don't think that any attempt to blank & lock the pages will work in the long run, nor will it help to drive traffic to the new site. Google's search algorithms are very efficient - if the Transformers community starts linking to the new wiki, Google will quickly catch on and update their rankings accordingly. (I used to work for Yahoo! Search Marketing, I know what I'm talking about here.) Long story short, I think that more competing websites are a good thing for the fandom at large. Jimsorenson 06:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Perspective from someone outside

Let me share some thoughts... Not an admin but please don't flame me!!!

Who really owns this space in Wikia? It's still Wikia. Sure, you guys created the content but this space in the server is still Wikia's. It's like renting an apartment (only we don't have to pay anything) and making the modifications we want. Now, if you leave and delete everything, it's still in the deletion log for new admins. You probably left the apartment but the paint on the part of the wall where your picture used to hang will look cleaner compared to the rest of the wall. Anyhow, will Wikia policy allow a scorch earth approach whence you move?

This place will still be called Teletraan 1 as site name. If you feel some proprietary fondness for the name, I bet there's going to be a problem if you move to another server and somebody else is granted admin status and takes over this Wikia wiki. What then? A word war? Will the new admin have the power to change the name to Cybertron Archives or something else?

Just how bad is the idea of two competing Transformers wikis? You are already competing with the Transformers project in Wikipedia already! Yeah, Wikipedia can be filled stuck ups but just reminding you guys. On the other hand, you can join forces with another Transformers wiki but you will both have to agree on how best to approach the wiki. Kind of like the DC Database Project and Marvel Database.

Anything like that image with Optimus giving the finger to Wikia is shameful! Wikia might have botched up some stuffs but in my eyes, it reeks of ungratefulness. If it weren't for Wikia, this wiki would never have grown to the monster size it is now. Think of them as your landlord except they never asked a dime of you. Where do you get a landlord like that? And what landlord hasn't acted like an ass once in a while?

I have yet to see the animated ads that some have spoke of. Then again, I live outside of US so I can't say for sure how the ads affect by location.

I'm more inclined that you stay with Wikia. Sure, the ads are annoying and sometimes messes up with your layout but I just don't think it's reason enough to leave. But that's just me. --Destron Commander 08:54, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't speak for most of your points. But for point 4 regarding the picture of Prime giving the finger, that was posted by a relatively new member who was giving us some headaches elsewhere on the wiki, so he or she isn't representative of this Wiki. All of the regular contributors who replied agreed that despite our anger at Wikia's changes, posting such a picture would be childish, offensive and puerile. So we're not doing that, and if and when we do move, we'll prevent people from trying to do so.

By the way, since you're an outside person... does working for Wikia pay well? ;-) --FFN 16:34, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that a "scorched earth" policy is not what we're doing when we leave. Do people just read nothing but the first post of every section started by some crazy dude, or what? --ItsWalky 16:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

So, um... what are we doing? There's been talk of various options, with scorched-earth being one of them. I think it's perfectly fair for people to still be arguing against it because it appears to be just as valid a plan as any other that's been mentioned. Which is to say, half-baked and superficially explained. Is there some well-thought-out solution that hasn't been spelled out here yet? - Jackpot 22:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikia can revert anything we do, so "scorched earth" isn't a viable option regardless of our personal feelings. In the end, it's merely a petty act (a petty act that would take us days...) which accomplishes nothing. Pages will probably be left as they are. Soon, the place will be overrun with weeds and trolls. We will just have to be proactive in advertising the move. --ItsWalky 22:10, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I can buy that (like I said, every actual plan I've seen discussed is half-baked anyway). If you want people to stop talking about scorched-earth, I think it would help to state more often the viability of simply doing nothing. - Jackpot 22:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

A few problems with your claims.

We weren't at Wikia to begin with. We were originally with Wikicities. The old landlord was great. The new one's beeen nothing but trouble.

Wikia holds no rights to the name "Teletraan 1". If Wikia wants the rights, they'll have to talk to Hasbro's legal dept. Also, there ate two "Allspark" message boards. The Allspark was originally on ezBoards. When the site grew too big, the owner moved the forums to a different location. The ezboards allspark still exists, but it is mostly nothing bus spam posts since the community that built it moved to the new locarion. --FortMax 17:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Isn't Wikia just Wikicities with a new name (and some investment)? Unless I am misremembering, Wikicities changed its name to Wikia in March 2006 around the same time Walky and Suki were installed as admins, no? --FFN 19:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

The name issue is an interesting one, since it's been brought up before that "Teletraan I" isn't the most appropriate name for a repository of all knowledge in Transformerdom. The only reason to keep the TT1 name is, I think, to try to delegitimize the Wikia site. If we want to make a truly clean break, we could call the new wiki "The Underbase" or "Vector Sigma" or something. If anyone can come up with a pun as clever as "Wookieepedia," I'll give them a shiny quarter. - Jackpot 22:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

That seems ideal, if we could get it to stick. - Jackpot 02:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

*notes that it hasn't been changed yet*.

Depending on whether you wanted to promote the new Wiki or get rid of the old one more, I would have thought the Sitename would be "TFWiki.net: The Transformers Wiki" or "Transformers Wikia" by now. - SanityOrMadnesstalk page 01:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

i think that scorched earth would be good because it would show we were angry at wikia and from what i've read if we did do that the images wouldn't be coming back so if wikia undeleted the pages no one would want to go to the wikia version since it has no images81.157.181.72 14:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

There are no technical means that you can use to achieve this. "Deleted" images are not really deleted, just like articles. That didn't use to be the case, but it changed over a year ago. All they have to do is move things back to a point before the activity occurred, and remove all your deleting (or editing) privileges. --GreenReaper(talk) 17:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

More changes to the ad format

Looks like Wikia's made some changes again. I don't see any ads at all when I'm logged in, so yay for that, I guess. But when I'm NOT logged in, the ads have become EVEN FUCKIER. They screw up the intro-layout even MORE, and now they're also appearing deeper in the articles. I've taken a screencap in IE. Just thought I should note this for the record. - Jackpot 02:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I am officially ending my opposition to departure. They're taking away ads for logged-in users... but then putting great-big randomized green "JOIN JOIN JOIN!" notices at the top or articles. They have no intention of letting logged-in users stay ad-free, it's just a temporary pacification measure.

Also, the ads aren't even rendering RIGHT in Safari. -Derik 02:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

We haven't changed the ads for logged out users, just removed them for logged in. Logged out users always had more ads than logged in - see the original announcement. The "join" notice is also the same as it has been for months - I think it's possible for me to turn this off per-wiki on request, although I don't think it's a bad thing to have.

For the discussion on the change see Wikia:Forum:Wikia's New Style#Possible changes for logged-in users. The announcement that we are going ahead is under that. There are no plans for this to be temporary, the hope is this will be a long-term thing...although obviously we ain't gonna make the same mistakes again and guess the future.

It really is a bad thing to have, at least in the quantities they're set to. I love this wiki, but I have nothing to add and I never plan to make an account here, so I do not need to see a big green "Sign up!" box on every friggin' page. If nothing else, they should be toned down. 68.82.23.19 08:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Derik, can you give more info on what is going wrong for your on Safari? Screenshots are always handy if you are able to take them. Thanks -- sannse (talk) 14:41, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

The ads seem to be acting up on the front page again - usually (at least, in IE), the ads shift the content down, but today (on Firefox), they are placed over it.KrytenKoro 21:34, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The main page ads are designed to work with the column tags. But there is a dispute over whether they should be used on this wiki. You can read the details of that in past edits on this page... but the current result is that the main page is broken. -- sannse (talk) 18:06, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

We are aware that the ads float over the top of content of the main page in Firefox. We are leaving the main page broken to make a point. --FFN 21:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Main Page (or, how Wikia is going to fuck it up yet again)

copied from community portal
Hey guys, I'm Scott. As you know, the ads everywhere on the site have gone away for logged in users. The trade-off is that the front page will be getting a 300x250 box in the upper right hand corner to go along with the banner. I don't want Wikia to go out of business (I love free wikis too much!), so I've been going around to a bunch of wikis to help with that process. The 300x250 ad just for the front page will be turned on at some point this week, so to keep the front page from breaking, I've designed this update for you guys. What do you think? Ads will still be gone for logged-in users -- that's not changing (logged-in people will only see the front page ads, and that's it). I've been suggesting to wiki admins that they encourage their users to log in whenever they can so they don't see the ads. It's even possible to make login mandatory if you want. Anyway, I hope the ads being gone is cool with you guys. I just want to make sure that the front page looks okay with the new format; if they get turned on with the current layout, the front page will look crappy and I don't want that. Let me know what I can do to help! —Scott (talk) 23:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Walky, when are we going to be ready to move? --FortMax 23:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

This whole thing is so odd. I honestly don't WANT to not have ads as a logged in user. Reasonably placed ads don't bother me at all; I'll gladly take them if it helps pay for the site! The idea of this change seems to be that while the site is still far uglier for the readers, and getting uglier all the time, we contributors are insulated from it enough that we'll keep providing free content. But I don't see a point if it's all going to be screwed up for the readers by invasive ads. Chip 00:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

for the record, logged in users no longer see ads. --Uberfuzzy 00:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers. You shouldn't have to register here to not have our meticulously-laid out content result in an ad-frenzied clusterfuck. If ads were just always off in the corner or at the top, sure, but these damn fucking things actually push down content, rearranging things on the page. And that will never ever be acceptable to me. --ItsWalky 00:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a nice alternative to no Wikia at all. --Charitwo 00:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

No, a nice alternative to no Wikia at all is installing my own damn Mediawiki on my own damn server like I have done before.] --ItsWalky 00:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I was speaking for 6000 wikis as a whole, not just one wiki. This is the most sensible option, given all the feedback received, that could be implemented. --Charitwo 00:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how making the site look like absolute crap, riddled with as many annoying ads as possible, can possibly return a profit for Wikia in the long term. You're giving us a false choice. This isn't some binary thing, where Wikia can choose to either do nothing and continue like they always have, or make the experience absolutely unpleasant for everyone. --ItsWalky 00:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

There was no other choice but to change the ad situation, I'm not sure if you've been keeping up with the ongoing discussion, but it was explained more thoroughly there than I could bother to rehash here. --Charitwo 00:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

...isn't that what I was just talking about? I was explaining why it isn't a solution. It also isn't going to last. I mean, think about it: the new, obtrusive, unscreened, singing and dancing ads are there to be seen, right? So if we play along and all the readers actually start logging in, there will be no choice but to deliver those ads to all of us. this is not a solution. Chip 00:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

How can you say this with any certainty?--RosicrucianTalk 01:05, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Give me one good reason why we should believe this for even a second. Take your time, I have a book. --M Sipher 01:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

How does that make the tiniest bit of sense? Are you saying that once everyone starts logging in, and nobody's seeing the ads anymore... what, God will reward Wikia with magical servers that pay for themselves, and spit out petty cash to cover peoples' wages? Wikia has to make money, and once a majority of users are logged in, logged-in users will need to be served ads.

And again, I have no problem with seeing ads. None whatsoever. But if the old ads weren't making enough money, there needed to be a better solution than going to advertisers with such ridiculous demands. Why not seek out targeted advertising for the most popular wikis, ads that will be more likely to unterest the users and get clicks? Why not try ANYTHING else before just making the ads more intrusive? Chip 01:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I still remain dubious that all interested advertisers are only willing to hop on the Wikia train if they get content-area ads, and that this is the only way to keep Wikia from going under. It seems like a slippery slope for me. How long until we get hypertext link ads like tformers.com inserts? It could get ridiculous really fast, and seems to have hurt the signal-to-noise on the articles significantly.--RosicrucianTalk 00:42, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

As of right now, the current advertisement situation is not going to be changed in the forseeable future, sans broken/inapproriate ones, please use Special:Contact to report those. --Charitwo 00:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Which is, ultimately, why we're considering the move. It's not likely to get better and it could stand to get quite a bit worse before the end.--RosicrucianTalk 00:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I've heard this before the switch to Old Monaco (where Wikia was changing to the more profitable banner ads from the unprofitable skyscraper ads) and again a month later before the switch to New Monaco (where Wikia was changing to the more profitable in-article poptart ads from the now magically unprofitable banner ads). --FortMax 01:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi guys. Just wanted to quickly address why I took "fuck" out of the header, as seen here. That wasn't what I originally named the discussion. When User:FortMax copied it here, those words looked like they were attributed to me. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks! —Scott (talk) 01:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, since you restored the original topic in the Community Portal, this edit seemed excessive. Thank you for clarifying. - Jackpot 07:05, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Another clarification... Charitwo is not staff and not speaking for Wikia. We believe that this is a sustainable change, and that we can keep ads away for logged in users for the long term - be we are being careful not to make guarantees that might bite us in the future - we've learned that lesson during all this! -- sannse (talk) 20:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I really love the new and improved main page. It looks really great now! (or did the aforementioned changes not get made yet?) 203.97.2.142 01:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

...apparently removing links to this discussion and reference to the tfwiki.net URL will somehow get rid of the white space. Good to know! Looks like Wikia has stopped playing, and they're now prepared to be completely shameless. Chip 03:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The while space can be removed by creating a 300px column on the right of the page. That's what the main page tags are for. The content should have been handled in a separate discussion, since it has nothing to do with the main page advert displaying properly. All you need to do to make the white space go away is put back that column. If there are any errors with the tags in place, please let us know. We aren't seeing them on other sites using this system, so would look into any differences in css and so on that might be causing the problem. -- sannse (talk) 17:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Quick reference for why we are discussing leaving

Setting a date

Okay, so here's how it stands right now: it seems pretty clear that this move is going to happen.

What I think we really need is figure out what we still need to do before we actually move, and set a date for when this is going to take place. Off the top of my head, this is what we have to do:

Finalize the skin that we're going to use for when we move. Rosicrucian's already working on that, and has a work in progress that I personally think is great, but he's looking for comments from the rest of the community, too.

Determine what ads we will run and start soliciting advertisers. I have little experience in this field, so I'm hoping Walky will chime in soon.

Get the database and images dump from Wikia. This should be done the day before the actual move, so it's as recent as possible and they can actually get the dump made.

The import itself will be done that night. After that's done, we'll put notices on the old site telling everyone to update their bookmarks, and send out a press release to the big TF news sites.

Frankly, I think that's it. To the people I've specifically mentioned, can we get your thoughts on when that'll be ready? To anyone else: is there anything I've missed here?

We can get this going relatively soon if we really want to-- and it seems like most people agree that it's best done sooner rather than later-- so long as we actually get on it. This is not as daunting as it seems. --Suki Brits 04:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

As far as ads go, wasn't the plan to run Project Wonderful? If that is still the case, soliciting advertisers isn't really the thing to do. I mean, you CAN, but it would involve spamming other people (mostly webcomics) that are members of Project Wonderful. We can come up with guidelines for who gets approved and who doesn't, content-wise, and I can prune advertisers based on those guidelines. (For example, "no badly drawn big titties" could be a rule.)

There's also Google Adsense and ADSdaq to consider, but those are mostly content-driven, so there'd be no solicitation there, either. However, if we DO choose ADSdaq, I do know how to program it to set aside a certain percentage of ad displays for a single ad, so if we did want to pursue our own advertisers such as BBTS, we could do that on the side. --ItsWalky 04:31, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, as far as our host is concerned, he just wants (and is still waiting to hear, as far as I know) what our traffic expectations are. Should I refer to the insidious line graph for numbers? It seems that we average out at about 150,000 pageviews a day, which is about 50% more than Shortpacked! does, so by my very quick guesstimate, the site'll probably cost about $90 a month to run. That should be... very very easy. --ItsWalky 04:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I asked Wikia for numbers, but-- not unexpectedly-- they have not been forthcoming. That infamous line graph is all we've got to work off, I'm afraid. I can send those to your host-guy myself, I suppose; I'll say that we want to get the move going sometime within the next couple of weeks or so. But we still need a solid date.

And, well, so long as we have a plan for dealing with the ads, that's great. I just don't want to get held up by people saying "Wait! We can't move yet! There's still advertising to work out!" I don't know if we want to rely on Project Wonderful ads, or if we should be soliciting, say, BBTS or the fan club, which is why I asked. If you think Project Wonderful will cover it, and you can get that set up, then that's great. --Suki Brits 04:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

As long as there's space set aside in the site design, ads can be dropped in and begin working in a matter of minutes. Google and ADSdaq will take a month or two to begin paying out. PW allows us to withdraw from our balance at any time. --ItsWalky 04:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Sounds to me like PW is a perfect "get up and go now" deal. More... "dedicated" ads from places like BBTS or other online stores could be introduced later, and probably wouldn't be a bad idea as backups, reserve fund money. Just saying. --M Sipher 05:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Sign up for one of those webtracker... things.... and put it in the site css/javascript. Gather our own numbers so we're not caught completely off guard if they're different than we expect.

One possible problem was that people would have to sign up for their accounts again- and there's nothing to prevent (say) me from signing up as "itsWalky" and causing buttloads of confusion. Suki and I patched that on the test server yesterday (screencap for the less technically-minded,) so that all seems to be in order. There's some more I'd like to do to make the transition go smoother- but nothing that it waits on.

August 31st. (Delay until September 30h if there's problems.) Plenty of lead time to get the word out, get people ready, transition data to the final server and work out any unexpected kinks, and time to properly debate and make final decisions we're comfortable with without rushing... but it also gets us out of here before any major TF-related 'stuff,' happens (that's before SDCC, right?) depriving Wikia of that readership boost. -Derik 05:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

SDCC is at the end of this month. But certainly I don't think Aug. 31 is in the middle of anything, and later is better for maximum not-screwing-this-thing-up-ness. Also, I second Sipher's point above that we should by no means dismiss the idea of soliciting ads from BBTS et al., even they don't go into effect until after the site's been running for a while. We've built up enough visibility in the fandom that I think plenty of TF-specific advertisers would immediately see the value in paying for our adspace. - Jackpot 05:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

August 31st in particular may not be a good time for me, given the school year starting at the beginning of September, and since I'll be doing most of the work involved... well, it matters. I'll look into it: for now, is it reasonable to say that we'll be moving on either August 31st, or if not possible, August 24th? --Suki Brits 10:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I was just throwing out a date. No one seemed either strongly for or against it. (The 24th puts me in my first week of classes, but that's... no different than I really expected.) -Derik 13:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

BTW, what's the preferred URL going to be? tfwiki.net or tfwiki.info? I changed a link I had on my site to the .info url, but tfwiki.net is displayed in bold letters on the main page, so I'll use that if it's preferred. --203.97.2.142 01:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

i think we should put BIG notices on the main page saying about the move NOW so people have more time to update links and bookmarks81.108.233.59 09:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

wait, which date is it actually going to be? have we moved already?217.43.82.247 07:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Final reservations

I am no fan of Wikia at this point, but I brought up some questions about the move that haven't been answered yet. I'm just going to quote myself: "Is Walky's server sufficiently reliable? Will the site stay up, will the data be safe and backed up, will ordinary technical issues be dealt with regularly, will it be reasonably fast and able to handle massive amounts of traffic?" Also: "I assume that we're not talking about a computer in Walky's bedroom, but beyond that, I don't know what we're proposing here. Wikia, though they may fuck with our layouts, at least is in the business of hosting wikis, so I feel I can put the basic trust in them that Teletraan I will function and my work won't vanish, barring major catastrophe or bankruptcy."

Now, since I first posed those questions, the Wikia folks have dangled the threat of their own insolvency more openly, and I've also learned that Walky's been hosting his own wiki for some time. So while the relative perceived security of the two have become a bit more comparable, I still would really like to hear from Walky or anyone else involved in the nitty-gritty of the move speak to the issues I've raised. As bad as the ads are, I think it would be worse to have a site that fails entirely - either in the lighter sense of technical/traffic issues throwing a monkeywrench from time to time, or in the worst-case scenario of hundreds of our frivolously-spent man-hours becoming truly wasted by an unbacked-up server crashing and erasing our work. In the end, I know no one can guarantee anything in the wilds of the Internet. But I'd like to at least know that these things are being considered and prepared for in some fashion.

We were gonna do this for TT1 site- assing people to save backups of the page and image archives regularly and keep track of who had what... but that kinda fell apart when we realized that wikia wasn't updating the image archive. I figure including the ability to download importable backups (just like we will be from Wikia) is good enough, right? -Derik 06:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what that last sentence means. - Jackpot 06:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

*clarifies preceding sentence*

Wikia database exports (such as the one we're gonna use for our move) take the form of two files. (both >700mb) The first is a giant xml file of all the edits ever made to every page on the wiki. The second is a giant .tar of all the images. If we keep those two updated and downloadable... that's all you'll ever need to port everything to another wiki. (As we're planning to do.) *checks with Suki to see this is correct* Yup.

There's scripts for creating the XML dump. I assume there's ones that create the .tar too. We'll just have to make sure we get 'em working. -Derik 06:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Editing halt?

Question: When should we stop editing altogether to make this transition easier? I've been cutting back on edits since news of the potential move. --FFN 09:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Basically, right after we ask for the database dump to be made, you should stop editing, or they'll just end up getting lost. Don't worry about it right now; full warning to everyone will be given when that actually approaches. --Suki Brits 19:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't Walky (well, and McFeely, and you...) have the ability to 'deactivate' the site? If things go well- I assumed we'd lock the site at midnight, get the latest export, do the databsse import on the new server (~10 hours) and then move en-masse to the new server. Total downtime'd be ~12 hours if there's no hickups, and you'd time it so it'd be the least productive 10 hours. (late night and early morning.)

Any images that end up missing because we got the image archive a day or two earlier could be ported by hand-- that's relatively easy to do by hand compared to the article updates. (MediaWiki has a function to list all images, starting witht he most recently uploaded. You'd just compare the two to find what's missing.) I volunteer for that task, assuming I'm not out of town. (Are we setting a date?) -Derik 19:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Unsurprisingly, Wikia gives us precious little power. None of us are capable of locking everything-- short of getting a bot to do it. I mean, it makes sense, but doesn't make any of this any easier. --Suki Brits 07:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

...bringing things back around to plan A again. -Derik 08:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Some suggestion from an outsider who's read the whole discussion (it's been instructive!): Make a page "Move notice", give the schedule, then bot post to it every 5 or 10 minutes or so with a summary like "please read this, or your edits will be lost" so that everybody who even so much as glances at recent changes gets the idea. For more involved code-fu, get the bot to watch recent changes and post if (and only if) its own last edit isn't at the top any more. --◄mendel► 11:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe we are able to edit the Recent Changes template itself to include such message at the top. -Derik 19:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

why does it really matter?

Seriously, why in the big scheme of things does ANY of this matter? why do people want to "move all this information to another site" because of banner ads? it's called the internet people,...ya know this isn't anything new here, banner ads and all other kinds of marketing has been shot at us since the internet started coming out of our old cathode ray tubes,...(before LCD screens for you youngins out there).

and I for one, never even SEE any ads on this site anyways, I'm always logged in, and even if I'm not i have a firefox add-in called no-script that blocks any damn thing i WANT it to,...so in all reality, if you people are SO burdened by ad campaigns,...go back to what we did back in the 80's, go start yourself a little fanzine with a ditto machine (sniff those ditto pages while you're at it,....i LOVE and miss that smell!). At least with your own in=print fanzine you won't have to deal with ads.....well unless you want to put out a second issue that is,...cause that ditto machine cost you some cash,...and the paper even cost cash too....so hence ads will have to be put in your own in-print fanzine. So lets just move all of this information to Little Jerry's server in his mom's basement....yea that'll work,....I'm sure after an extra 2 or 3 months of his moms cable bill sky rocketing because of having to pay extra for an business account internet access due to the VOLUME of traffic that will surely ensue, she'll just kill Little Jerry. So then we'll move the site to something like Billy Bob's account on GoDaddy.....I'm sure he wouldn't put some kind of ads on there or some kind of spyware that automatically tracks the actions of Margie Smith who decided to google up some transformers info from his new and improved wiki here on GoDaddy. or some other dumb crap like that,...or god FORBID Billy Bob would have to put some ads to pay the drastic increases in bandwidth....that toolbag,...how DARE HE!!!!???!!!!

Listen people, it's the internet,....it's going to have ads!

And this is Wikia,....you can't do better than them,...and if you could,...more power to you, just throw me an easy thousand dollars from your first 4 billion dollar profit year ok? OK!

I for one an going nowhere, never will, and if i see people ducking out of here, i'll just laugh at your stupid posteriors.

Well, given that you just came out of the woodwork without contributing significantly to tell us that you'll be staying here if we move... I don't know what you intend to accomplish with this.--RosicrucianTalk 15:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, do you own a Heinlad alarm clock? --Thylacine 2000 15:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

well true I haven't contributed much to THIS site, i do other wiki stuff for marvel and dc comics, and star trek, but i dont have to defend myself against flames on here.

all I'm saying here is i come here to read up some info in my spare time, and nothing more, and i think it fruitless to move the site for any reason as pety as banner ads.

and no, i dont own a heinlad alarm clock....man, i just love people who THINK they are funny haha
Vaporretarder 15:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The problem is not that there are banner ads. The problem is there are large box ads that fuck up our layout, push down the main image below the fold on a bunch or articles, show up in the middle of the article area and cover article area and text. What's more, logged in users (who make 95% of the edits) never see the ads (even on preview pages), while people who are not logged in (who make 95% of the page views) always get ads. This means that the editors do not see the same page most of the site visitors see.

Also, we will be able to get a better deal on ads on Walky's server than Wikia can here. Companies that buy add space will pay more when they have a very good chance of the add reaching someone who would be interested in something they offer. We can do this on Walky's server with online toy stores and comic shops. Because of the vast scope of interests Wikia covers, wikia cannot do this, so they're stuck with random ads for things nobody wants, which obviously will not pay as much. --FortMax 16:34, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

There's also all the underhanded doubletalk and backpedaling that was done to "sell" the forced changes. After all that, I have ZERO expectation that logged-in users will be "ad-free" for long, or that the ads won't get more and more invasive and obnoxious. They're doing another song-and-dance, and people are buying it out of short-sighted selfishness. It sure as fuck isn't "Wikia or nothing"; other wikis have made it on their own, and frankly I see no reason why we can't. But then again, I do things like read and comprehend, which our rambling visitor seems to have a problem with. --M Sipher 16:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I just don't see how you plan to make this happen, and for the record no one cares about ads! (these 95% of visitors already know what to expect fro the internet) they know they will see ads, its a way of life.... some people can go right ahead and "move the info to another server" and say F.U. to wikia,...but really all that you're going to do it hurt the overall community because as of right now,it only looks to be a small uprising of moderators who are getting pissy about this,....who's to say that you have the power with only 5% of the vote,...what about those 95% of visitors opinions? ......I'd say just suck it up, keep posting the great info right here like always and go along with your merry little day,....or go pull that other site up and fail, it's up to you.

Near as I can tell, every singe regular contributor supports the move.

And it's not about the ads- it's that Wikia has lied to and deceived us- and be CAUGHT lying to and deceiving us- at essentially every step of this rollout process. There is zero trust in anything they say anymore- and we don't credit their placating comments of "This far, no further!" anymore. Right now they're saying "no ads for logged in users!" ...but also amping up notice-harassment to try to get ALL users to log in. Do you understand how the two are mutually irresolvable?

And seriously- why should our users have to put up with message harassment demanding they sign up? We disabled those messages in June when they first started popping up. ...until Wikia rewrote the script which produces them so we can no longer disable them.

Wikia's atmosphere has turned very, very unfriendly- we don't feel like putting up with it, and every active contributor on this community eventually agreed that they no longer want to stay. Does it really have to get more complicated than that? Case closed. -Derik 17:28, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I initially started out very optimistic about Monaco. If you look at the Community Portal talkpage, you can see that after a bit of talking with Danny, I gave them the benefit of the doubt on a lot of things, and got very gung-ho on customizing Monaco and started up a lot of chatter about using it to improve our interface. That goodwill has been wasted.--RosicrucianTalk 18:04, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

i just think that you people who don't like how the status quo is being handled can go somewhere else, and let wikia go how it will go,....no use arguing over pety,...and yes advertisements, however intrusive they ARE are still ads, they are necessary for a site to make some sort of revenue, if you don't like it, go somewhere else, simp0le as that, just stop with the bitching and complaining,...the internet is a BIG place,...you can go find another corner to sit in to complain at.

and in response to the dude above who is trying to flame me for saying that I ramble and i don't read and/or comprehend what i am reading,...you sir are quite wrong, true i might ramble, but its more of a flow of consciousness, just whatever comes to my mind i type,...but i DO comprehend everything thats going on, all i see is spoiled rotten jerks that want things THIER way or the highway, well i tell ya buddy, that there information super highway is CALLING your name,...it's urging you to go play in traffic.

Like i've said above you NEED ads to make a site profitable and ALSO to pay hosting and bandwidth costs.

whatever though, you can stay here and keep bitching or leave, its up to you, it IS a free country, or a free world if you don't live in the USA. Vaporretarder 18:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I love that you tout your reading comprehension, and then go and post stuff like this. We are "going someplace else". Someplace else with ads, which everyone understands are entirely necessary. Blah blah blah, blah blah. --Salt-Man Z 19:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Ladies and gentlemen, behold the face of "competing wiki" we would leave in our wake. - Jackpot 19:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm just saying, who REALLY cares about having ANOTHER damn transformers site on the web? there is already a perfectly good one right here,...and if not THIS one there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of OTHER fan sites out there as well,....dont add to the mess,....lets keep this world clean and safe for our childrens. don't do it for me, do it for our childrens,....be green, reduce, reuse, and recycle!

now shut up, ya'll KNOW i'm awesome, and i'm right, or didn't you get that memo? Vaporretarder 19:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

In the spirit of your drive to keeping the world clean, I ask you please stop wasting oxygen. Can we now ban the blatant and not even dimly amusing troll, please? --M Sipher 19:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no oxygen is being used, i live in a bubble,...you wouldn't make fun of a bubble boy if you were in front of one,...

but seriously,....are you going to try to have me BANNED for stating my OPINION? that sounds rather nazi-esque, and gestapo-like to me,....and actually sounds WORSE than what the wikia people that you are bitching about are doing. hmmmm i smell irony,...or a pork chop sandwich,...either way it smells like suppertime to me! Vaporretarder 20:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, here's the problem. You don't contribute here, you apparently just stopped by to let us know you think we're stupid, isn't that the definition of trolling?--RosicrucianTalk 20:51, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I like trolslaw. It's a yummy dinner, and nutritious. Let's all feed the troll so we can have more! :D We're a smart site!

V. Retarder, if we go to a new site, we can get our own ads, which will pay more than the wikia ads. Also, we will be in control of the content without dealing with Wikia. Also, this website will be left behind, so you can take care of it if you like.

Do you really think there are too many websites on the internet? Well, we will have a better site than Bob's TRansformers geocities page, so we won't be adding to useless sites. On our own site, we will have the option of merging with other websites. You can't merge another website with Wikia, it has the rigid GNU policy, that means all the other site's work would become public domain.

However, you have the right to disagree, just don't expect to convince anyone your right by saying someone who disagrees with you is a troll. *shuts her ironic mouth* Spriteless 21:07, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

VR, with what due respect- this is the only place you've posted. All you'ds aid is "You should not move because it's just ads and your winy babies and there's too many sites on the internet." Others explain our point of view, you reply ignoring those explanations and repeat your original statement as if it was a response to what they said.

*I* think you're a troll. I mean- you have retarder' in your screen name, that's usually not a good sign. I (and others in this conversation whom I think reached the same conclusion) didn't particularly care though, because your method of getting attention took the form of...well... this conversation. And I think this is a good healthy conversation for us to have before we set a decamping date. We were gonna have to have it sooner or later- and I think it's actually very nice to have a chance to express clearly "Though our subjective experience as logged-in/adblocked users is not terrible, this is STILL why we are going to leave." All previous such conversation tended to be in red-hot anger. This one's been pretty calm, even casual, and that's good.

Basically I'm tentatively convinced you are raising your objections purely to get attention, but I still found them useful. -Derik 22:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I just think it's funny cause you guys are such elitist pricks about it, i say go forth and create your own wealth, it IS the American way after all,

as for being a "troll", oh well, so what if i'm not a "top performer" in the adding of content to THIS particular wiki, I mainly come here if i just wanna look up some random fact about transformers, I am an avid supporter of marvel and star trek wikis too, more so than this one. as for having "retarder in my name,....hahahahaha, i don't think you youngin's have any sense at all about anything OTHER than transformers and transformer related things, the name is a direct result of working with fiberglass insulation,....the paper on it in particular is a vapor retarding backing....not that i'm a vapor retard,...not that that is even a REAL putdown either. so get some new material and come atcha boy with something real next time. unless you're too scared to fuck with someone who is a full fledged member of the Benevolent Order of Registered Sex Offenders. heh so thanks again for being eveything that i hate about the internet, whiny childish eliist snobs.....and you wonder why only 5% of the traffic here is you guys,...cause the other 95% wants you gone anyways haha. peace i'm out!Vaporretarder 05:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Huh. That's kinda weird. I knew another guy online who worked with fiberglass insulation. He wasn't a Trekker, though, so he ain't you. It kinda makes you wonder what percentage of people you talk to online work in the same jobs...

But anyway, more on topic... Are you seriously bragging about being a registered sex offender as part of your argument? I sympathized with you up until there... this Wiki can be just a mite unfriendly to people who are here primarily to debate rather than to contribute... But bragging about something like that? I'm sorry, dude, but you lost all good will right there. We may be elitist snobs, but at least we're elitist snobs who respect women. Sorta.--Inevitable Betrayal 06:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

yeah, and about the sex offender thing, if you guys dont see humor when it's written i9n back and white, you need glasses badly,....i DID put down the "benevolent order of...." so since it's benevolent,....we're the GOOD ones haha,...or something, whatever, it humor at any rate.

as for me debating rather than contributing,...i've never (until now) debated on here, nor have i contributed either,.....i wasn't aware that in order to enjoy this site fully i was required to post shit, oh sorry, i apologize, i surely hope i don't go to hell for that. I guess i should start contributing to so porn sites that i vistit as well, according to your definitions, so which one of you is Jenna Jameson in here? gotta say that you ass is smoking!

Well. You've sure convinced me of... uh... well... whatever the hell it was you've been trying to say for the last two days. You must be right! We should all.... uh... um... do.... that thing you said. Whatever it was. -- Repowers 15:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, i am probably gonna be marked as a troll, or an offender, or someone will say that i don't contribute much with this wiki so i can't take part in the discussion or my opinnion is not really based on facts or any kind of nonsense.

But look, i agree with everything that Vaporretarder said, i personally believe that moving the site will kill it.
There are more than 5000 articles here, it's a LOT of data. Wikia's server can handle this amount of information and can afford the bandwith that it generates. Moving all this data to another server can really fuck up things, for all the reasons that Vaporretarder already explained.
I really believe (and i hope nobody takes offense on this, but i know some will) that you are all acting like those über-geeky nerds wee see on sitcoms and tv in general.
A kid with coke bottle glasses, braces, who hunchs and nobody likes, with his nerdy followers debating who could win in a battle, Boba-Fett or Jango-Fett, and getting rabidly angry when someone disagrees with him.
I mean... who cares there are ads? It doesn't hurt the site!
Someone said up there "The problem is that Wiki lied" or something like this, sorry, i'm not finding the precise words. Well, did any of you HONESTLY BELIEVED that the "Wiki system of sites" (for the lack of a better word) was created out of the goodness of someone's heart? No, it was created to make money, and now that there are hundreds of wikias around the net, it's creators are getting enogh money to wipe their asses with hundred dollar bills. If you can't take this, you are really naive.
Even if you move the site, eventually you will need money to keep it running, just like Vaporretarder said. What you guys think will happen then?
This is just my opinion, but i think you guys are crying over nothing, just like the steryotipical nerd i spoken about.
Moving the site over simple vanity will ruin it as a whole. I talked to people i know that use wikis as a source of information and none of them cares about ads.
Don't destroy this site simply because you where offended by something as silly as ads, something that have no importance at all in the real world. -- Akumateukuma 15:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, you apparently have read about as much of the discussion as he did, so here's some bullet points for what you missed.

We aren't moving the site just because the ads exist. This site has had ads for years, and they weren't a dealbreaker as long as they didn't have excessive flash that spilled into article content or talked.

We are moving the site because Wikia is putting ads in the article area, which fucks up our layout.

The new site will still be ad-supported, it will just be supported by targeted ads (like comic shops, Transformers news sites, online toystores like Action HQ or BBTS, etc) which will be placed more tastefully than the current trend on Wikia. As above, there's no objection to banner/skyscraper ads in the margins, it's when it goes into the article area that we get testy.

We also get testy when they lie, bait-and-switch, backpedal and then misrepresent our work as "proof it works!". Their track record does not bode well for any future endeavors. And if all this has "no importance in the real world"... then why are you wasting your apparently-valuable time here? Why do you care what this site does? --M Sipher 16:08, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for not offending me. It's very difficult to not be cursed by something postd on this wiki (and you know i'm not lying).

I understand that you guys don't like the fucking up of the layout, but what scares me is that moving the gynourmous amount of data may fuck up everything. This wikia was created but not with it's whole amount of information, the articles where created little by little until it reached the 5000 + articles that we have now.

Correct me if i am wrong, but it wasn't all made at once.

Now, moving ALL OF THIS DATA to another server... looks like a major nuisance and something that eventually the people responsible for it won't care anymore. Small articles (or the ones not considered "relevant") will be left behind and the new site will end up with 1/3 of the info we have here.

That's what i am afraid of about this "moving" thing. We already have enough crappy Transformers sites on the net, this is the only one that it's really good in my opinion, and moving it and run the risk of ruining it, well it's not something i believe is worthwhile.

Now M.Sipher, you make a good point. I care what this site does because i like Transformers and i like this site. It's a great source of information about a hobby i have. But i still think you are all overreacting.

No offense now, but everyone that cares about this site is a nerd. You are a nerd, anyone that ever made an aerticle here is a nerd, we are all nerds because we are using up our times to write about Transformers.

The thing is, i believe that this decision of moving this ENTIRE SITE is the thing that the wrong kind of nerd does when contradictet and that it will absolutely kill the Transformers wiki.

Since it's a site that a like to visit on my spare time, i would find it a crying shame if it was destroyed over the dispute of a bunch of agressive and elitist nerds. -- Akumateukuma 16:23, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

"OH BOO HOO YOU OFFENDED ME and by the way you're all nerds." Your people skills are remarkable, fellah. Have some faith; some of us "nerds" are actually pretty intelligent people, and more importantly, some of us (not me) make their full-time living working with computer stuff. I bet they just might be able to figure it out; in fact, if you peruse previous discussions on this very page, you'll find these issues being haggled out by those self-same "nerds". -- Repowers 16:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Well then, let me put at least one fear to rest: We have a working mirror of this wiki on another server, using the database dump which Wikia has provided us. It is not up to date yet, but it will be as we're going to request a second dump before the move. We are past the proof of concept stage now.--RosicrucianTalk 16:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, my major fear is that the massive amount of info here will be lost on the process of moving. If nothing gets lost, i couldn't care less where the site is being stored.

The other fear is about bandwith expenses...
The thing is, i seen good sites get killed by "being moved" over the dispute of it's owners or moderators, and unfortunately, that's the kind of thing i am seeing for this one as well.
I really hope i am wrong, but in the meantime, it would be really good to know that you guys may reconsider. -- Akumateukuma 16:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

We've already done the move once, as a test. It takes 10 hours to port over the articles and the proscess is almost completely automated. (The images will require a bit more hand work, but not much.) -Derik 16:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

We'd reconsider if we had any faith that staying here would not become a progressively worse experience for editor and casual reader alike, and that what Wikia management sings-and-dances today won't turn out to be untrue tomorrow. We'd reconsider if there weren't loads of sucessful independently-run websites and wikis to prove that it can be done (like TFU.info, the Homestar Runner wiki which doesn't even have ads, etc). We're NOT going to reconsider because of a really poor mass-ad-homenim attack. --M Sipher 16:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you guys can make sure that the moving won't screw the site content, then godspeed, you have my blessing.

By the way, Repowers, i am including myself among the nerds here, don't be so oversensitive. And it's a fact that i was offended in more than one ocasion after making some edit here, if you haven't, well, good for you!--Akumateukuma 17:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It would be difficult for the site to get killed in the move because it's more like copying what we have and putting it on the new server. If anything doesn't get to the new site (which i assume you're talking about when you say "killed") it could be moved by hand or if it's a lot of data we can get another dump because we're no deleting anything else here so we can get any thing lost in the transfer again from here.81.108.233.59 06:57, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Any way, if the site really is too big to get moved then it could broken into chunks and moved one chunk at a time which would be more more difficult and take longer but if someone high up in this site thinks we really are too big (and i don't see how we could be unless the other dump was done a year or something ago and loads of new info has suddenly popped up) then thats what they will probably do, at least it will make you people who think the move will kill the site be quite. P.S. sorry if there are any spelling mistakes.81.108.233.59 17:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

We're going to need more admins after the move

The recent bout of vandalism we just had made me realize something. After the move, we won't have Wikia's Janitors around to take care of vandals. Despite the amount of times the admins spend on the wiki, we're going to need more then four Banhammer wielders if we're going to be able to quickly deal with vandals.

Unless, of course, it would involve Derik getting admin powers. I'd rather be stuck with the vandals. :p --FortMax 19:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I'd back you as an admin. Derik is a little...yeah. But who would we have? -- SFH 19:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm willing to nominate Apcog, aka Doug Dlin. And I already reject any notion that I should be allowed to ban people. --M Sipher 19:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This general concern is part and parcel with the points I brought up above. Out of all my reservations, the only one anyone's even given lip-service to is the consistent-backup question. Derik explained the technical side of what sounds like an easy procedure... but the one big question remaining is, who's going to do it on a regular schedule? If TT1 is going to be on an ISP's server, then presumably someone there is paid to cover a lot of the nuts-and-bolts stuff that I'm concerned about. But if not (and STILL no one has explained what the term "Walky's server" actually MEANS), then who, out of the goodness of his or her heart, is really going to do all the unsexy work of site-maintenance for free on a consistent, daily basis? Counting on "the admins" in general is asking for neglect. Duties need to be assigned, and the assignees need to be prepared for the work. - Jackpot 19:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought we'd do what was proposed for here- make sure that we make regular DB updates- and actually list on the front page (somewhere int he fine print) "data last backed up on: date by: Derik. Images last backed up on: "date" by: Derik" (or whoever.) So if anyone loses track- it's on the front page and Someone will notice- "Hey, no one's backed up the archives in 60 days!".

(I currently don't plan on getting the make-a-backup system working until we actually move into the new server. The scripts involved don't seem to be out-of-the-box pieces, and I'd rather do the setup once than twice. This plan may change- I'm poking at some other stuff at the moment.) -Derik 21:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

"Walky's Server" is where Walkypedia! is set up. (he may also have Shortpacked! and It's Walky! on thee, but those could be on Blank Label Comic servers) I'm willing to bet the server is one he's renting/leasing at some server farm somewhere, and he's also mentioned that he has a "server guy" who's helped get stuff set up. --FortMax 20:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Walkypedia, Shortpacked!, and It's Walky!/J&W! are all on the same Blank Label server. (I believe Wapsi Square is still on there, too.) This wiki would go on a sister server, if not the same server. Depends on the traffic load. --ItsWalky 20:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know who will actually be nominated as New Mods, but there's a pretty short list of people who absolutely should not be trusted with that power. By which I mean Derik, Sipher, Walky, and probably me. Doug's a good call, assuming he's around enough. I'd put Rob Powers' name in the hat too. -hx 20:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I may be around enough to be effective as an admin- but I have no real desire to be one. I spend a lot of time talking about wiki policy, arguing different perspective, etc... and I think the conversations that result are usually good and useful. That kind of thing tends to get stilted if people are disagreeing with an admin. (It shouldn't, but awareness of authority is human nature.)

Besides, I would have banned Monorail Guy. Satisfying as that may have been, it would also probably be inappropriate from someone in a position of responsibility.

I nominate McFeely! (Oh, what? Really? ...huh, I never noticed that.) Doug and Rob seem like a good idea though. -Derik 21:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The thing about admins is that these are officially appointed representatives of our community. Do we really want to say that Derik and Hooper are the type of people that we are? I mean, Hooper enjoyed Assaulthead's rants. I'm not saying that hx would unblock someone for the thrill. Admins are supposed to be impartial about who they ban. But one thing we might want to consider is granting rollback rights to some users. -- SFH 21:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The list hoop gave was a list of people who "absolutely should not be trusted with that power". He put himself and Derik on that list, as well as Sipher (who's said he rejects any notion that would allow him to ban people) and Walky. --FortMax 21:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

And, knowing Hooper as I do, adding Walky to the list was a comedy joke. --M Sipher 21:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Fuck you guys, Walky totally banned me once. Clearly, he should never be allowed to have his finger anywhere near The Button. I readily admit that a wiki administered by a Derik/Sipher/Hooper triumvirate would be awesome to watch, but I think the signal to HONK BURF HATE AND PISS AND COCKS EVERYWHERE ratio would be pretty low. -hx 23:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Christ, you post one or two cocks on the Wiki and suddenly you get a reputation. -Derik 00:41, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It's settled, then. After the move, admin powers for the Wikia TT1 will transfer to Derik, Siph, and Hoop.

Or or or. We could make every major troll from the past year an admin, then see how long it takes them to realize it.

THIS IS THE GREATEST IDEA EVER. The "leaving me and Sipher and Derik in charge" part, that is. It would look like the motherfucking WARRIORS up in this bitch. (Also, incidentally, us three may not be the BEST representatives of this community, but when you come right down to it, we probably are the most ACCURATE representations of the fandom as a whole. Siph is the curmudgeon who fixates on ridiculous obscure minutia and verbally lambastes anyone who doesn't agree with him, Derik is the weeaboo gaywad who ruins everything with his weeaboo gaywaddery, and I'm the self-inflated egotist and closet frat-boy who wants to get e-famous for being better at liking toys than everyone else. I'm guessing that Derik is also really really fat, since under this system one of us has to be.) -hx 12:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I think there should also be representatives who believe Transformers is serious business, and shouldn't have caption funnies. We should archive all discussion to the contrary when we move. Give the wikia site a fresh start on the subject with new management. Also, it will ensure the two sites have different personality and have less overlap. And the audience that likes the funny finds the new site that much fasterSpriteless 03:01, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and adminned Apcog and Repowers, just to let 'em get used to their AWESOME NEW POWER between now and the move. --ItsWalky 21:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

HAY GUYS WHATS GOING ON IN THIS THRED?--Apcog 02:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

OH NO KREMZEEK! HAS BEEN DOUG IN DISGUISE ALL ALONG!!!! --ItsWalky 02:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

By odd coincidence, I was recently able to watch the Dungeons & Dragons episode in which Eric gets to be Dungeon Master for a day, so the worries about how and if to use such AWESOME POWER(tm) are fresh in my mind. Of course, like Walky, I'm about to leave for Comic-Con until Monday, and there's issue catch-up for the following week after I get back, so it'll be essentially moot 'til then.--Apcog 06:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I see this Knol thing in the news. Could it be a viable alternative to tfwiki.net? (Vaguely relevant to this section) Drmick 17:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Knol is a completely different animal. There's no reason not to run MediaWiki.--RosicrucianTalk 18:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Question about feasibility

Not for this wiki, though, for the Devil May Cry one; if asking here is inappropriate, please just remove the section.

I've put a great deal of effort into the format of the DMC wiki's pages, and wikia's asshattery completely rips that up on both the top and bottom - it's not even shifted out of the way, for these pages - they look completely like shit.

As you all certainly know, Wikia seems to be refusing to listen to any suggestions that aren't given by their groupies, so I'm thinking the DMC wiki might have to perform a move similar to yours. However, I'm the only regular editor on that wiki, and the only admin who hadn't already moved on. Is there any chance I would be able to afford a move similar to yours? It is quite a small wiki (only 257 articles, with generally only 6-10 edits a day). Would anyone be able to provide cost estimates? I mean, if I can't afford it myself, I still might be able to affiliate it with a prominent fansite.

As a different "solution", if I must remain with wikia - do the skin guru's here (Derik, Rosicrucian, etc.) know if it would be possible to extend blank space horizontal to the ads, either through coding or simply through lots of ugly <br>? A giant blank space would be preferable to the ripped up state it is now. KrytenKoro 23:23, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

A few cost estimates are available at WikiFur's moving page. Bear in mind that they're based on a 9000-article wiki with a million hits a month. For a small wiki, either NearlyFreeSpeech or Linode would seem quite reasonable options.

The biggest cost is likely to be your time, and/or the time of whoever will assist you in the move. It could take a matter of hours, or several weeks, depending on your prior IT and MediaWiki experience and the level of customized service that you wish to provide. Configuration of extensions and ancillary services such as statistics and backups are relatively straightforward, but can still take a lot of time if you've not done it before. --GreenReaper(talk) 17:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

A few small questions about this

Not that I’m not for the move there are a few things I don't completely understand. What does the term "Walky's server" mean because I don't think he has his own server so presumably he's renting out part of a server, if that is true how long before we get to big for it? I'm also not sure if the server will handle such a big wiki, I know walky has his own wiki on it and we've put a test on it but what is the test? Was it a huge (but not giant(like this wiki)) piece of data just to see if it can handle any more or was it a copy of this wiki from <insert how long ago here>? Even if it was a copy of this wiki both us and walkypedia are expanding so will the server hold both of us? Another question is will the ads come with us? If they do then that might spoil our whole plans because things won't get any better (because from what I’ve read Wikia made it so we can't remove the ads). One final thing I want to say is an idea for a new name, how about Teletraan ||? We don't have to put it on the main page now along with the tfwiki bit but we could put that on to the main page of the new site once every things copied and I just remembered, I think we should put big notices on the main page (big enough for everyone to see) saying we are moving <whenever> and telling people to update links and bookmarks. Thanks for reading all of this81.108.233.59 05:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The test was a full database dump of this wiki. It worked.--RosicrucianTalk 05:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The server is Blank Label Comics' server, which I believe is pretty damn hefty and stable, hosting several pretty high-traffic webcomics. The ads from this site will not be on the new one. Our new site WILL have ads, because we WILL need the revenue stream, but they will be ads WE choose, and WE will choose where on the page they will be placed. --M Sipher 06:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

How exactly will ads be chosen? Will it be one editor/admin in charge of it? What if there is a dispute over a certain ad? Will disputed ads automatically be taken down, or will there be some heirarchy to who's vote counts more?KrytenKoro 20:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The possibility of Project Wonderful has been discussed, as have ads with some of the major toy importers like BBTS.--RosicrucianTalk 20:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Just wondering what's happening with the move, when it's happening, whether it's worth updating articles at the moment? There are a bunch of articles I'd quite like to work on (I just signed up a few weeks ago, before I realised that this move was planned) but I don't want to waste effort. --Atalan 12:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be the current date for the move is August 31st. If you make edits now, they'll be carried over to the new server anyway. --203.97.2.142 03:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Article edits will be migrated without a problem. -Derik 12:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I have another question, when we move won't all the links still link back here? If they don't then why? Is there some thing in the scripts that will map the old links on to the new pages?81.108.233.59 17:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

No, they will only look for this site if we have the full address in the link... which we don't. The links look within the current site for pages with the specified name. It only looks outside the current site if you specifically tell it to. --M Sipher 17:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

But do you like the new name i thought of (teletraan ||)?81.108.233.59 17:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Dudes, dudes.... I've found our new name. Screw the Underbase, screw Vector Sigma... check this out, from Transformers in 3-D issue 2: "Hasn't anyone told you about the Prism of Power? It's the sum total of all the knowledge in the galaxy in crystalline form. If anything has our solution, that's it." The PRISM OF POWER. Who's gonna fuck with the PRISM OF POWER? Nobody who knows what's good for 'em, that's who. For the logo, we can just rip off Pink Floyd. It'll be sweet.PRISM OF GODDAMN POWER. - Jackpot 18:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Witwickypedia. :~(

(In all seriousness, I'd favor changing the name to Teletraan II- if only so it'd be easier to tell the links apart in google.) -Derik 18:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

This is sort of like Casey Kasem leaving the show...--RosicrucianTalk 19:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

im glad you like my idea for a name derik!81.108.233.59 08:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Sipher, this site has many URL links, not all are wiki links. I'm not know how relevant they are. I sugest you should replace this with scripts before or while the move. Or you have the exactly the same URL after the move, then it is no problem. For me it was a problem, because the "/wiki" was not between server and page name. An other small problem is, that Wikia has branded pages with a small footer line, if you use Special:Export or the database dumps. Wikia backups of images under http://images.wikia.com/<database name>/images/images.tar are out of date since Jul/2007. For imports to other Mediawiki (where you have no root access to database), you needs to split the XML file into smaller hunks, because mostly installations have a size limit for imports. - This, I found by moving my wiki last month. --HenryNe 16:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Sipher isn't an admin nor is he handling the move to my knowledge. can you mention this to Suki Brits, as she is handling our move. --FFN 00:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't stress this enough, the database dumps on wikistats don't have the page texts (they record the edit metadata, but not the edits themselves) of edits more recent than about July 29th or so - this affects both the current and the full dump (I've checked both on guestbook wiki and the guildwars wiki current pages). On your current pages dump, the last article has a timestamp of 2008-07-29T10:15:23Z. I've been waiting for wikia to fix this for two weeks now, but it seems they have their hands full with the web caching problems. --◄mendel► 00:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Aww crap. So all of our edits since July are not going to be preserved? I KNEW there was a reason why I couldn't be bothered making any edits in August.

No. Be cool. The page dumps contains page text and meta data, and for my wiki example it contains text changes up to 2008-08-19 (ones of last changes). After you have imported most of data with the dump file, you can get the missing changes with a scripting tool curl and setting a start time. With this tool, you can copy changes after the move. This works also, if you would have change the same page on new server, before you imports it. With the same tool, you can get every single page and the full history. Suki, FFN or who else, sorry I'm not active on this wiki. But, I can help with tips from a successfully moved wiki. --HenryNe 01:25, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

That's one option. Or we can lean on Sannnse to force a manual backup update the same way she's gonna do for the image. (Well, in theory anyway...) -Derik 04:15, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikia seems to have fixed the database dumps, the current dumps (of August 26/27) are complete up to the time they were made. --◄mendel► 11:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

ScribbleWiki

If your looking for another option, ScribbleWiki (www.scribblewiki.com) is willing to host the your wiki. We are not a community builder; but, a wiki host. We would put some minimal advertising; but, in general the Transformers administrators would control the wiki. If interested please contact us swsupport@lingermedia.com 67.159.44.138 18:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Announcement?

I heard the news. Should we be preparing to pack up or what? Shouldn't there be a message updating the move status? --FFN 06:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it waits on us setting an actual date. (At one point that was.... tomorrow or this Tuesday.) I asked Suki this, um... 2 days ago? Apparently there are a couple questions she put to the hosting service she was waiting for responses on before we can commence the move. So stuff is probably bumped back to the 31st (our original decamp-date) or very early September, depending on how long it takes her to get an answer. (We should know a date very shortly, so there's no reason not to wait for it before announcing.) -Derik 08:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's correct. Right now it's just a wait and see; if I can get stuff installed on our new server soon, it'll be fine and peachy. Otherwise, we'll probably need to push it back another week, because like I said before, I've got an apartment to move into on September 1st. And unfortunately, actual moving isn't quite as simple as the wiki process. So we'll see. --Suki Brits 17:41, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

This is all terribly exciting.

With Wikia's front-end caching servers having shit the bed, it's almost like the Nothing is coming for us. Fly faster, Falcor!--RosicrucianTalk 14:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Post-Move Editing and Accounts

Quick question: After this move occurs, are the casual editors here going to have to set up new accounts on the new site? --Suzyprime 23:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe so. In fact, I don't think it's really possible for Wikia to cough up just a single node's users, given that an account registered is valid across Wikia. You can also bet your bloomers that Wikia isn't going to serve up their whole user database to us on a platter.--RosicrucianTalk 23:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Also some privacy concerns there, as essentially Wikia has no consent from their users to hand out their information to a third party (which the new site effectively is). The consent process on our part is taken care of the fact that the re-registration process gives the new site the right to have that information. Edit history should still be intact, so if you sign up as the same username it should mesh up nicely.--RosicrucianTalk 00:13, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

So defenestrated User and Talk pages will transfer, but their owners will still have to re-register?--Apcog 00:18, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

To my knowledge. Should be a relatively simple matter for Walky to give you your admin pants back once you've got an account.--RosicrucianTalk 00:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Rosicrucian's indeed correct; and furthermore, Derik has set something up in the registration so that if you try to register as someone else's account, it tries to log into Wikia with your password first just to make sure that you're who you say you are. We'll take it out after a few weeks, but it'll stop, say, Assaulthead from taking your name before you even notice the wiki's moved. So you will have to re-register, but you won't lose your edit history, and nobody can steal your old name. --Suki Brits 17:48, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

If you set up user confirmation with email, you can use Special:Emailuser/M.mendel(for other users, use other usernames) to send confirmation codes from the new wiki to people on this wiki who have confirmed their email addresses with wikia. You have to be logged in to use this feature (should be a matter of wget or netcat sending the right cookies). Cooperation with wikia is not required. --◄mendel► 00:29, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

On the privacy issue, is there going to be a Privacy Policy with Terms of Use and other legal mumbo jumbo so you guys don't sell my email to all the Viagra spammers out there? :)--Suzyprime 00:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me if this is the wrong place to ask this, but will the new site be able to handle all the newcomers? I would hate to see the the site get overwhelmed (I'm not a very technical person, so forgive me if I sound like I'm asking if a monster truck can handle a mudhole). I'm looking forward to the launch of Teletraan II. - Zadok Rox 21:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The service we're moving to hosts high-traffic daily webcomic sites. I think it's a virtual-something-something. (Can you tell I'm a code guy, not a server guy?) Anyway- the point is... they routinely handle high-traffic sites. Suki'd be able to answer this better than me... but it doesn't look like that will be a problem.

(We should totally have a FAQ for this, or something. Maybe I'll take some Benadryl tonight and write one.) -Derik 22:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the term you're looking for there is "virtual private server" A site I help manage had to move to one because it was using too many resources on the chared hosting account it was on. --203.97.2.142 23:32, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Questions on the move

Hi All. It's getting close to the end of the month, and the date when you have said you intend to leave Wikia.

What I would really like to do (as I have said privately to ItsWalky and Suki Brits) is discuss with you your reasons for moving, and the reasons that we believe you should stay. The Transformers Wiki has grown beautifully since the early days when I added ItsWalky and Suki Brits as admins. They, and the rest of the community, have done a great job in helping it grow and develop. We at Wikia would love to see you stay here, and carry on growing with us.

But, we screwed up. We made mistakes, we didn't communicate well enough, and we lost the trust of the users here. So I suspect that whatever we say you just won't believe in our good intentions. So, much as we would like you to stay, we have resisted arguing about your intention to move, feeling it would only increase the bad feelings.

So now we are at the point where we have to consider the future of this site. And I think the first thing to do is ask the current admins: are you intending to continue editing on this wiki, or should we remove your admin flags when you and the community move? We also need to know the date of the move, so that we can make any necessary changes on this wiki.

I would like to hear directly from the admins on these questions. I think a lot has been relayed via some of the more vocal users here, but this time I think we need to know directly from the admins what they intend. Thanks -- sannse (talk) 20:08, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Though I am Not an Admin™, I can at least point out what you've probably already seen, the pages that will be deleted after the move. As I understand it, that will be amongst the Admins' final acts, allowing whatever community settles here at this node of Wikia to decide its own policy rather than feeling beholden to ours. That may end up being accomplished by Deceptitran or Diagnostic Drone, but by my understanding the vast majority will be hands-off after that.--RosicrucianTalk 20:25, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

One of the biggest problems we've been having with Wikia is that whoever it is you have doing the coding that effects all of Wikia (logins, add layout, how edits are submitted) is particularly incompetent. Up until the mandated switch to Monaco, the site ran smoothly. Since the switch, it's been one problem after another; login problems in Oprah, editing problems in Oprah, "redirected from" links being removed, ads breaking the site layout because they were seemingly tested only in IE and at just one resolution. Hell, Monaco itself broke out bot User:DiagnosticDrone.

We understand that Wikia needs ad revenue to survive. However, when the ads are put in the actual article space, it invariably messus up the article formatting. It also doesn't help that the people doing most of the edits don't see what 99% of the site's visitors see. --FortMax 20:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

"login problems in Oprah, editing problems in Oprah,"

You use a daytime talk show host as your internet browser? No wonder you're having problems! --FFN 07:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Though I am also Not an Admin™, I imagine... actually you know, I'm not sure.

Saanse: Once is bad luck, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.

You're welcome to try to persuade the community to re-consider its stance, I think it'd be a good and healthy discussion to have. But I started out arguing against the move, but continued interactions with Wikia have finally convinced me that TT1's departure isn't just desirable, it is necessary. For us, yes... but also for you guys. As long as Wikia can keep telling itself that all the complaints it's getting won't amount to anything— that users will complain and threated but ultimately aren't upset enough to leave— then Wikia will remain incapable of change. Wikia needs to actually see us leave before it can believe it actually needs to do something to address user discontent other than placating users and hoping they go back to sleep. Wikia won't believe it's happening until it's real, and you need to understand it's real— not for our sake, but for your own, and for the sake of the other communities you are alienating. You have to lose us if you're ever going to get better.

As for the original target date... that's slipped (surprise surprise!) But things seem to be back on track with our web-host (that's Suki's end) and we're now tracking for early Septemberish.

Will Wikia's page-history export archives be up to date when we're ready to leave? I've heard talk that they're 2 weeks out of date all of a sudden. (Not like the Image Archive, which has always been out-of-date.) Is this a result of Wikia's caching problems? When is that expected to be fixed? (If it isn't already, I haven't been paying that much attention to the problem.) -Derik 22:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi

I haven't heard yet from any of the admins. I understand that other users have comments to offer, but I really want to hear the official word from an admin. The active admins look to be ItsWalky, Suki Brits, Apcog, Chris McFeely and Repowers.

What's the date of the intended move? We need to know, so that we can make plans for the future of the wiki. Thanks -- sannse (talk) 19:17, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

We don't have a solid date. It depends on our new host, and when he'll be ready for us. When we have a solid date, we'll let everyone know.

As for why we're leaving, I think that should be abundantly clear by now. We will not tolerate ads forcing our content around inside the body of the article itself, for registered or anonymous users. I'm not sure why we have to say that again. --ItsWalky 19:25, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll chime in because it's been requested of me, but I don't really have anything to add. I don't think I've even uttered a word during this whole messy affair, and I'm not part been privy to any behind-the-scenes info on the move. As for my actual view of the whole thing, I dislike the idea of all of our work being left behind as it results in the possibility of it being dicked with and the potential for a "rival wiki" to be formed using all of our hard graft as a springboard, but like everyone else, I know that moving is really something that we have to do, to be free to do what we want to and to make our point. - Chris McFeely 21:30, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Likewise, as I'm technically an admin, though I was only made one about a month ago, well after the plans for the move were in motion, so I haven't had any part of the move date decision. As with many here, I regret that the move is necessary, but Wikia's repeated problems have amounted to a behavior pattern that is better to rebuke than tolerate. As Derik said, the impact of our move may provide the necessary jolt to Wikia's upper management, letting them know that (among other things), despite how Wikia relies on its ad income, putting the interests of the ad investors ahead of the readers and contributors—repeatedy—is not the way to keep those readers and contributors around.--Apcog 01:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Really, I don't think there's any more to be said. You'll definitely hear from us when there's a move date set in stone. We need to get the up-to-date article and image dump, after all. We're way past the point of discussing the reasons for moving; anything there is to say has already been said many times now. Nothing's changed. --Suki Brits 05:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Pretty much what they all said. There's nothing I could add which hasn't already been covered.

Thanks for the replies. Yes, we understand your reasons for leaving but that wasn't the question :) We need to look to the future of this wiki, and that's why I asked whether we should remove your admin flags when you leave.

One of the factors here is the main page. It's been left as broken for some time now, and we would like to replace it with the fixed version at w:c:mainpagetest. If you were leaving on the date you originally planned, then it would seem best to wait until then, change over admins, and change the main page. But if there is a delay then that's even longer with the page broken - which is damaging to the wiki and its future once you have left.

So my next question to the admins is will you allow the main page to be fixed now, in advance of you leaving? -- sannse (talk) 18:36, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

With the content now pushed down instead of overlaid with the ad (or does the google ad still do that, and I just haven't see it lately?) I believe the main page is merely "ugly" and not "broken", and I don't see how this so "damaging to the wiki and its future" that it needs fixing asap. But then I'm just an interested observer, no editor (and certainly no admin) on this wiki. And why does the test page look just as "broken" to me? --◄mendel► 07:19, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the number in the sentence "We are currently working on 6,869 articles" is linked to a page which doesn't exist, both on the test page and the live Wiki (though that's not really a layout problem...) --203.97.2.142 00:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes it seems broken to me, sometimes not. So the only reason Wikia staff themselves won't fix this is fear of getting reverted? (err, ourselves, since I will certainly keep editing other wikis here after the move)Spriteless 19:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, sannse, the new main page looks much improved. Thank you for your work on it. IF ONLY THE PEOPLE HERE WEREN'T LEAVING THE MAIN PAGE WOULD LOOK MUCH BETTER NOW. IT MIGHT ALSO BE POSSIBLE TO BRING OTHER BROKEN PAGES TO SANNSE'S ATTENTION TO GET THOSE FIXED AS WELL. IF NOBODY WAS LEAVING, THAT IS. OH WELL... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Starfield (talk • contribs).

Seeing as how, judging from this conversation, the whole reason it's still "broken" is at least partly as a protest to the fact that someone from outside the wiki came along and made unsolicited changes to the Main Page that went over everyone's protests about it screwing things up even worse in non-IE browsers (among other problems) and removed the links to the "leaving Wikia" discussion...

I'm guessing the answer to changing the Main Page before leaving will be "No," followed by my personal belief that, "The fact that you're even asking means you missed the point." Jeysie 20:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

"IF ONLY THE PEOPLE HERE WEREN'T LEAVING THE MAIN PAGE WOULD LOOK MUCH BETTER NOW."

If only Wikia admins hadn't engaged in a pattern of uncooperative and/or antagonistic behavior (purposely or otherwise) before Sannse was nice enough to fix things recently, the people here wouldn't be leaving. Please re-read the Project page related to this Talk page, Starfield. This hasn't been any kind of snap decision based on a heat-of-the-moment reaction.--Apcog 22:48, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

...really? I assumed Starfield was being sarcastic. Sort of-- "You keep trawling for positive responses and are frustrated that no one is affirming your initiatives. Perhaps it's because wikia has pissed us off so much that we're leaving, and feel no pressure whatsoever to cooperate with your housecleaning?"

Perhaps not. I just thought- with the caps and everything- it read as sarcastic. -Derik 23:59, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, I came away with almost the opposite impression: The all-caps were sarcasm aimed at US, the people leaving. Oddly enough, I'd have probably considered it sarcasm aimed at Wikia management if it hadn't been in all caps. Well, if I've misinterpreted your intent, Starfield, I apologize.--Apcog 00:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I was playing along. I could see Saanse was trolling for some positive feedback on being helpful cleaning up the main page, so I obliged. Also, I haven't been here long and I don't know lots of history on wikia relations, but from up here in the cheap seats, they are giving the appearance of being genuinely helpful now. That may be just appearance, I don't know. Jeysie's response about leaving the main page broken as a protest sounded pretty stubborn to me. I should probably be staying out of this, but, then again, maybe a perspective from a late-comer would be helpful. Moving seems like a lot of work and a little risky and I'd hate to see it all just because of stubbornness. Sorry in advance if I am speaking out of turn because I don't have all the backstage information.

Has anyone tried Saase's test page on all the browsers and whatnot? Because it looked pretty OK on Firefox and IE.—Starfield 00:51, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

See the bottom of the page. It's a completemess using Safari and Mac OSX. It seems they have fixed the random visible coding that adds interest to the nice white space on the current main page with Firefox/OSX, though. Blitzflipper 15:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

To give them credit, Wikia have rapidly fixed both errors. Just a big, pretty white space on the current main page in Firefox, and some charmingly asymmetrical menu boxes on the test page, both in Safari and Firefox. Blitzflipper 18:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Small note, that all home pages along with wikia.com have more or less errors in IE6 inclusively this test page. Here is a view with IE6 at 1280x1024. Menu overlapped the Wiki logo - The same as in tfwiki.net currently. --HenryNe 19:41, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'm trying to pull these issues together and see where we are...

Whitespace. This is the overall problem on the current main page, and can be removed by using main page tags. It's not showing on the test page (other than during a glitch, now fixed)

Problems on Safari/Mac. This seems to have been caused by an edit to the test page, which has now been reverted. I've protected the page so that we all know we are talking about the same thing.

'); //--> replacing the ads. This bug is with the technical team, I will increase the priority. This affects all pages, it is not specific to any one main page layout.

Sidebar overlapping the menu on IE6. This appears to be due to some site-specific css. One of the Wikia staff is looking at your Monaco and Common.css pages to try and isolate the problem. Again, this isn't specific to either layout (the test site has the same site css)

Spotlight over the logo. This may have been a one off glitch in rendering the page, but if it is a repeat error please let me have more information on operating system, whether the problem shows on other pages, whether this was a logged in or logged out view, whether you have seen this on any other Wikia wikis.

Update on the sidebar/IE6 problem... it was your local css, you can fix it by adding in the change shown here. -- sannse (talk) 16:03, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

uneven column widths

whitespace now at the bottom, causing rows to not line up any more - this is only not a problem if you assume users aren't going to scroll down anyway

what do I have to search for on help.wikia.com to find the docs for the mainpage columns? very frustratingly, I do remember reading a doc page about them that said you could put any content that goes across the full width after the right column is closed, but it appears that breaks on Safari? --◄mendel► 00:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The design has a fixed column of 300px (which allows the box ad to fall into place) and a variable column who's width depends on the screen resolution of the viewer. If you want the columns to look even, one way is to design in a way that doesn't give a clear bottom border. Star Trek Expanded Wiki does this well for example. Or you may prefer to even the columns out for the most common resolution (1024×768).

The help page on tags is on the Help Wikia at Help:Main page column tags. As it says there, it is possible to put a full width section at the bottom of the page, you just need a "clear" after the columns. -- sannse (talk) 22:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

new name

There have been a few suggestions for a new name for this wiki when we move so I am putting them all here for people to look at and debate. Teletraan ||, Vector Sigma, The underbase, Witwickypedia/Witwikipedia and Prism of power. Please say any names I have missed out. 81.108.233.59 17:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

*sigh* Regardless what we choose (my heart sings for Witwickypedia) I want to voice my support for the idea of a name change for 3 reasons.

If we're ever gonna change our name to Teletraan 2, then this is the time.

Simple conversational logistics. I'd liek to be able to say our name to someone without having to specifiy- "but not the Wikia one." And not just because I hate defining ourselves in terms of Wikia-- even in terms of not being it... but just because... dont we HATE the fact Allspark has a Disambiguation page? Can't we choose a name that won't cause message board posts to descend into abject confusion? "I'm from Teletraan 1 (BLC), you're talking about Teletraan 1 (Wikia)!" And if any group picks up the wikia after us... they'll be using the name, so it just... it's potentially very confusing in a non-funny way.

Google. I search for TF stuff- and google gives me the page title. "Teletraan 1 - Vector Sigma." I think users should be able to easily tell our search results from Wikia's in google by the large-text title, not by squinting at the itty-bitty URL.

I object to "Teletran II" simply on the grounds that it sounds... less impressive. --M Sipher 20:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd vote for either "Teletraan II" as a continuity-keeping name or "Vector Sigma" as a spiffy-new name. ("Underbase" is probably the most accurate name/concept, but also much more obscure.) Jeysie 20:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there anything tying the name "Teletraan I" to the current site? Could we change the name of this site to something else and take our long-established name with us? -- Repowers 21:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

We should stay "Teletraan-I". That's who we are. I don't see how this is any different from when the Allspark left EZ-Boards, as the old location was left behind (aside from the EZ-Spark account being hijacked). The Allspark was still called The Allspark, and the oldSpark was quickly forgotten. (Or we could simply roll back the wiki to how it was before we found and ressurected this place)--FortMax 21:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The site was named Teletran 1 when we found it. Also, it was nothing but maybe 5 pages of incomplete lists. --ItsWalky 21:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Then name problem solved. (Exactly how powerful is the Rollback function?) --FortMax 21:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that presumably anyone who takes over here will inherit the name we'd be using, and I doubt Wikia plans to change their name to accommodate our exodus. If we keep the name.. there will inevitably be two sites with it. -Derik 22:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for keeping the name if we can. I'll re-voice that "II" implies "lesser copy", and sadly "Underbase", while more technically appropriate, hasn't got the recognition factor behind it. "Vector Sigma" has a bit more going for it. But I'd prefer to KEEP our name if doable. --M Sipher 21:48, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Weird thing is, the name hasn't even been important until now. The people on every board (TF or otherwise) I go to refers to this place as 'the TF wiki', and rarely, if ever, as a 'Teletraan I'. --FFN 22:13, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I like Witwikipedia - it has the advantage of being unique. With Vector Sigma, Teletraan II, The Underbase, etc, you require an extra explanation. Witwikipedia stands alone. --Jimsorenson 22:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The Underbase would be ideal, but for the fact that it has zero name recognition outside the hardcore Marvel comics fans.

Witwickipedia is cute and unique, but it's also pretty unwieldy.

Really, I think keeping the name Teletraan-I would be the best move, but if that's not possible I think Vector Sigma is the best of the remaining options.

(And yeah, I always just refer to this place as "the Transformers wiki".) --Salt-Man Z 22:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

No one's gonna remember how to spell 'Witwicky'. Teletraan has issues associated with its numbering. Underbase is unacceptably obscure....

We're moving to TFwiki.net. How about "TFWiki"? It's not clever or cute... but it's to-the-point. (That, and I like that we'd be asserting ourselves as the TF Wiki- no further identification needed. Let Wikia be the also-ran.) -Derik 22:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm okay with that too. Remember, as I said above, at the end of the day most people will just refer to our wiki or the wikia wiki (depending on which is more prominent after the move) as "the TF Wiki". They're unlikely to say the actual name of the site unless they need to clarify that it's not the Wikipedia. --FFN 23:36, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I vote for tfwiki too, for what it's worth an on and off editor.Spriteless 01:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

^^ Both practical and hilarious at the same time. I dig it. Jeysie 04:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I knew you'd like that one, Hoop. In fact, I was wondering where you were when I suggested it up above. (It's in the middle of this section.) Anyway, my ACTUAL vote goes to "TFWiki". Makes the URL easy to remember, and it's automatically got MORE name-recognition value than "Teletraan I". Rotating funny name is intriguing, though I suspect the rotation would not be maintained for long. - Jackpot 06:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I say officially we're TFWiki, but for our own amusement we just rotate the name. Eventually we'll come down to the Underpants of Power. --FFN 06:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, for the record, the Magnificence also fits the theme we've got going. - Jackpot 06:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Seconded. The "use 'Teletraan I' and change the name of this one" thing I mean.—Starfield 15:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Change this one to Teletraan II before the move.—Starfield 15:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

We'll have that random-selcetion searchbox, yes? Why can't we set up a random-selection thing for our subname? --M Sipher 07:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Just have a bunch of JPEGs of different names, and let the software pick which one to display at any given time? Works for me. (Though Rosicrucian might kill us.) By the way, Surprise Party gives us two more: the Hall of Records and the Storage Asteroid. I'd say we should use the random titles as links to the articles that inspired them, but three out of the four I've come up with don't even have articles at all yet... - Jackpot 08:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I dunno about actually rotating the name proper, but a random fake "disambiguation" on the front page each time would be kind of funny. "Welcome to TFWiki, a user-created resource for information about The Transformers. For the mysterious alien resource for information about The Transformers (and everything else), see Magnificence." Then you could have hte Underbase, Vector Sigma, PRISM OF POWER, hell, you could even throw a Rad joke in there. (For the mildly irritating teenager who wants to tell you about the Transformers...) -hx 10:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I've been meaning to say this, but I think you guys have been getting the Rad quote wrong. Usually he actually says he's here to tell us about the Traannnnnnsformers, not that he wants to tell us. He has no choice. It's in his contract. --FFN 13:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

'Teletraan I' if we can have it. If not, I still like 'Teletraan II' but I would be in favor of 'TF Wiki' as a great compromise. 'Prism of Power' reminds me of of the cover of Pink Floyd's 'Darkside of the Moon' album (though I imagine the term has some basis in Transformers' lore). 'Underbase' sounds too generic or something like an anarchist wiki. - Zadok Rox 13:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

i personally vote for teletraan || for two main reasons 1 it was my idea (not that important) and 2 we still keep some aspect of our name (the teletraan bit) and also it shows that we are different to the wikia one and also i dont think it sounds like an inferior copy (like internet explorer 8 doesnt sound like an inferior copy of internet explorer 7) i think it sounds like a new improved verrsion (which is what teletraan || is)81.108.233.59 14:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Both Vector Sigama, Teletraan I are good, so is Underbase (though not so many know it). Teletraan II is not ideal and sound like a, um, well, copy or something like that. --TX55TALK 15:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing stopping us from calling ourselves Teletraan 1. Wikia doesn't own the name. --FFN 07:58, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

First of all, some people should be aware there is already an Underbase wiki for Continued Generation 2 UK fanfiction here:

Second of all, Teletraan I or II is a reasonably cartoon specific term, just as Underbase is comics-specific. The same applies to Vector Sigma. Is there a term that applies to all the Transformers continuities, that unites the Comics vs Cartoon, the USA vs Japan, the G1 vs BW etc etc? Do we have to use a specific Transformers computer name? Can we not use something like Primus' Bible? Or Unicron's Lair? These are horrible examples but I'm using them to illustrate pan-continuity terms.

Third of all, I prefer just plain, simple "tfwiki" or "tfwiki.net". It's short, easily typable, easily pronounced, and has all the hallmarks of a good meme. And it can be logo-ized easily with any of the previous logo fonts.Drmick 13:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Excellent points, Drmick. In light of your statement, I suggest we go with 'TF Wiki'. Um, is the name 'Transformers Wiki' already taken (forgive me if that's a stupid question, but the only truly stupid questions are the ones not asked)? - Zadok Rox 14:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

we're moving tomorow (this is so exciting!) so the name is definetly tf wiki? whatever we choose i'll be with it 100% (or maybe 85% unless its teletraan || then its 100) and will make sure that every where i know that links here will know about the move although i do have one question, one thing i read said we are going to move and after that on this site put up that we've moved (because currently the move isn't said about much) but some other people wrote that when we have moved the last action of the admins will be to blank the wiki or roll it back to before we found it so which is? i think we should go with the first one and maybe blank/roll back the wiki after we think evryone has the message or perhaps blank/roll it back but put up about the move on the main page anyway81.108.233.59 18:04, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Looks like "TFwiki" is getting the majority of support. It's not my place to make the call, though. But I do know that Aug. 31 is no longer our move date. See Derik's post here: "As for the original target date... that's slipped (surprise surprise!) But things seem to be back on track with our web-host (that's Suki's end) and we're now tracking for early Septemberish." I'm sure there will be announcements aplenty when the move is finally in motion. As for what the plan for TT1 is, it's been REPEATEDLY said that fully rolling back the wiki is futile. After we're gone, it would be all too easy for Wikia or the new editors to restore everything. Instead, we're just blanking pages that define and discuss our site policies. Whoever comes in will have a blank slate not in terms of actual articles, but in terms of the rules they want to set up. Because we're egotistical, we happen to think that our way is the best way, and therefore whatever new policies emerge here will hasten TT1's descent into suckitude while TFwiki rises to new glory. - Jackpot 20:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

but are we still going to advertise the move on the main page because it's a little late to start now81.108.233.59 11:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we could ask for the same kind of priveliges as Uncyclopedia?

Maybe we could get Wikia to host us, A la Uncyclopedia, but display banner ads on the opposite sides of the page, avoiding interference. It's a long shot, but has the management considered that? I mean, we're probably one of the most popular Wikis, along with Wookiepedia and Memory Base Alpha.--Dynamus Prime 22:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

You haven't really been paying attention to anything that has happened for the past six months, have you?--Nevermore 23:13, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Excuse my ignorance....

Sorry, I JUST logged in to read about this today.
So this Wiki is moving? Cool. Is there a new address, or will logging onto this site redirect me to the new one?
Again, sorry for my ignorance, just trying to play catch-up.IC79 14:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Eventually you'll need to go to tfwiki.net or tfwiki.info to access the new site (it isn't up yet). You would then need to re-register on the new TF Wiki since it will not be affiliated with this wiki or Wikia. --FFN 14:27, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

no eventually, we move today! sayonara wikia! good bye and good riddance! every one lets get out of here! (calms down) sorry, this move is exciting!81.108.233.59 17:26, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe we are. If we were, there would be some kind of notice up and warning. Besides, we already said we're delaying it by a few days, and our staff and regular contributors are still editing. --FFN 17:47, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Note: This is set up on my test wiki at the moment, not the development server. I need to confirm one or two tech-points from Suki on our final configuration before I port the code over so we can use it for our import. -Derik 20:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

This is AWESOME

I just had to share how awesome the front page of this site looks in IE7 at 1280 x 1024. Check it out. --Salt-Man Z 22:03, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The toolbar being offset I can grock... that's been screwed up forever and no one's bothered to fix it. But why are they running ads over our fucking logo? -Derik 22:14, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

For that matter, why is my popup-blocker telling me the page is attempting to open a popup window? -Derik 22:18, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, and with that custom css in my profile (or wherever) that blocks other ads. --Salt-Man Z 23:29, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Did it do that more than once? It looks like a mis-render-- like if the javascript that generates the user bar failed to fire and it stuck the first Featured Wikia adblock at the TOP of the left column. (it's currently stickign them ont he bottom of the left column.)

I have no ideawhy the Featured Wikias adblocks are rendering in the left column instead of below the articlespace like they're supposed to-- I know that they were rendering correctly when we bumped up our page layout. Wikia has apparently changed the layout code and broken it for themselves.

You'll forgive me if I categorize that as "their problem." AFAIK TT1 has never implemented any code designed to block or hide ads (that would be a violation of Wikia's Terms of Use,) and I make no secret that I find Wikia's continual rearranging of their rube-golbergian ad-management code massively annoying. I literally could not care less that this practice is breaking their own stuff, and making lie of their "Customize Monaco however you like!" press. It's really not our responsibility to task a user with keeping up with Wikia's stupidity full-time. -Derik 00:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

My monitor's resolution is 1280x1024, and this is what the frontpage looks like to me all the time. --ItsWalky 13:14, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

A question, or two?

Loving the snarky humour of the wiki. I was going to wait and register after the move, but there are a couple of things I'd not seen mentioned yet. I'm looking at the site with Firefox on OSX, and I get a '); //--> of broken code at the head of the main page, whether logged in or not. Maybe also worth mentioning that the test page has a snafu on the left in Safari/OSX. Doesn't look too bad at first, right? But see that scroll-bar at the bottom. Shift it along...?

The other question is on ads after the move. According to the article on the move in the Guardian (pretty cool media coverage, guys!) the new site "will still have advertising"... but knowing the Guardian, that could just be an extended typo. Any clarification? Blitzflipper 12:50, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

We won't have intrusive ads that fuck around with the body of the text, but ads will exist. It'll be much like the wiki was before Wikia started giving us swirlies. --ItsWalky 13:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so who's gonna be making money off the wiki after the move? Has this been explained somewhere obvious already? Blitzflipper 15:06, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

The goal is less to make money and more for the site to pay for its own hosting. Unlike Wikia, there won't be investors to satisfy, and the ads will be more targeted and thus more effective. IE, they will be mostly from TF fansites, toy resellers and the like.--RosicrucianTalk 15:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Right. Back before Wikia started changing their ad settings every few days, the only ads (this was for all viewers) was a skyscraper ad in a frame on the right (along with two wikia spotlight links) and a banner ad at the bottom of the page. The ads would likely be a mix of Project Wonderful, toy stores (BBTS, A3U, etc.) and Google ads. --FortMax 16:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe the advertising is expected to turn a profit. Any earnings-above-cost will probably be eaten up in July 2009 when movie traffic causes us to exceed our alloted bandwidth. (Not sure what the allotted bandwidth is...) The anticipated bandwidth costs for our traffic (assuming we eventually manage to grab any significant portion of Wikia's traffic,) are not small change-- they're too big for anyone to simply 'eat,' even as a pool.

AFAIK, there'll bee either a banner or skyscraper ad. But like Wikia used to have, off to the side, not in the middle of the article, and not laid out using badly-written javascript that renders visible HTML. -Derik 16:59, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I guess that makes sense, but is there a plan what to do if there are left-over earnings-above-cost? Will the accounts be available? I also feel obliged to note that Wikia have fixed the coding errors: no visible HTML on the main page, and the test page now has charmingly asymmetrical infoboxes (over both Mac browsers), but no obvious snafus. Blitzflipper 18:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I would assume Walky and Suki Brits would keep any profit they make. They would run the place, and I assume they would be the ones who will be getting the adverts in the first place. --FFN 18:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Conversely, I had assumed that they'd be reinvested into hosting specifically to prevent us from showing a profit... but the amounts we're talking about are relatively piddling (and entirely hypothetical, and dependent on our ability to capture traffic from wikia...) that I just don't think that conversation has taken place. Ensuring solvency is a more immediate concern than how to spend our any imaginary Vast Internets Profits. -Derik 18:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I was imagining Walky holding a quarter aloft and declaring that he's embezzling it, but you had to ruin my fun :( --FFN 21:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest keeping any extra funds in reserve for periods of unexpected, uncompensated traffic or future hardware/increased hosting expenses. Plonk it in a money market savings account so it can earn a little interest. In any case, keep a public ledger so there's no questions about where the money's coming from or going to (a-la FFXIcyclopedia). Consider the tax implications as well - is it being run as a for-profit operation (in which case costs can be deducted, but it should make at least a small profit over three of five years) or non-profit/hobby (in which case it's harder to deduct costs from personal taxes)? If the latter, it might be worth incorporating and applying for 501(c)(3) status; we're looking to go down that route at WikiFur, although for us the tax benefit is a relatively minor reason. --GreenReaper(talk) 18:46, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Time to fix the main page

I think, with the conversations above, we are in a position where it's clear that no one is seeing problems with the test main page (although there are a couple of unrelated issues to look at). But I've not heard from the admins about switching over the main page to the fixed version.

I understand that you are going to move on, and I understand that you are making a point about your feelings towards Wikia by refusing to fix the main page. And until now, we have accepted this, partly to try to keep the peace, and partly in the knowledge that you are moving on soon anyway. But the main page has been left broken since July 17th, which is driving away readers. And on our end, at least, we have no idea how long this will continue.

On any other wiki, I would consider insistence on a broken main page to be vandalism. I wouldn't have to do anything about it on an established wiki, the local admins would fix it. On a less established wiki, I would fix it, try to talk to the person insisting on the broken version, and ultimately prevent them from breaking it again - whether that meant banning them, or removing their admin rights and protecting the page.

We have tried to talk directly to the admins, both via email and on this page, in an attempt to find a way forward as smoothly as possible. But that's not worked, it's been hard to get any replies, and impossible to get any agreement.

So, my intention is to change the page later today. I ask that you allow this and do not revert to a broken version. I am prepared to protect the page to prevent it being damaged if necessary. I'm sorry if this sounds draconian, but I don't see any other way of breaking this deadlock. Thank you. -- sannse (talk) 11:58, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an admin but the reason we are leaving it broken is in a protest like we said, we don't care if it is driving away visitors because if wikia hadn't started putting ads were we didn't want them we wouldn't be leaving so we wouldn't have the main page broken, you can do what you want when we go but until then it is still our wiki and if we are driving away visitors from here then we are driving away visitors to the new site when we move because they won't know about the new url.81.108.233.59 15:26, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention that, by threatening to change the main page regardless of the wishes of the contributors here, IMHO you're just reinforcing why it's a good idea to leave. If you truly care about restoring some goodwill with your users, then I personally would request that you respect us to have control over our own wiki, and leave the main page as-is until we either leave or change it ourselves, whichever comes first. As the post above me says, if we're driving away readers to our own wiki, that's kind of our problem to deal with, isn't it? Jeysie 16:58, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, there's enough drama in the air here with Sannse's ultimatum without people we don't even know coming out of the woodwork.--RosicrucianTalk 22:54, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

*claps hands* And I was afraid we'd be leaving without one last bit of Wikia-asshattery to see us off... but you managed to slip a hardnosed assertion of moral authority into the narrow window between Alesha-nechan coming online, and our request for the updated image archive. Bravisimo! -Derik 22:11, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh good god any troll can come here and it's wikia's fault? I'll admit they've been a bit authoritarian about some things, they own the server. I know, y'all provide the content so are more important (or at least this will be an experiment on that point). Damn squishies and your eternal drama.Spriteless 17:40, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Look at the number of colons in Derik's post. He was responding to Sannse, not to 525600. --Detour 17:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe it! They've gone and done it! They've changed OUR main page! We really need to make that bit known, perhaps on the main page or on the complaints bit? Is it possible to "fix" it?81.108.233.59 17:17, 10 September 2008 (UTC) ps i hope you donn't meen me as one of the people you don't even know as coming out of the woodwork

Well, anyone who's a registered user can change it back. But if anyone is going to change it back, I think it'd be better if one of the admins was the one who did it, just to make the point clear.

But yeah, it definitely should be mentioned somewhere. Way to go Wikia, you just made this newbie user refuse to believe you have any good intentions whatsoever. Jeysie 20:05, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Um, main page is still screwed up...I'm seeing this: '); //--> all over the place now. Somewhere an escape character is missing, I suspect. On a lighter note, I brought beers and snacks for the sitewarming party after we move :) --Emvee 10:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Spamtrap's busted

Hey! Wwhatever you guys are updating (and I've seen at least 3 minor formatting and functionality changes in the last few hours) is breaking stuff! (Incidentally? I hate how the "submit" button on the file upload page is now pushed beneath the fold, though the duplicate-file warning is nice.)

We can no longer edit pages with the word "a r r a y" in them. So I'm guessing one of your tech-monkeys forgot to escape something. This is wikia-wide BTW, not just TT1.

Hilariously? It even prevents me from including a file with that word in it (though it had no objection to uploading it!)

Yeah, I know. Have they ever updated anything on TT1 without breaking it? In fairness, this is wikia-wide, and it looks like they're updating a whole SWATH of things tonight.

Just- why is it that, statistically, TT1 seems to be the ones that notice this shit first? (I reported this in #wikia 30 seconds before a guy whom I assume to be from Wookiepedia was about to-- and I took the time to post about it first.) -Derik 11:03, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Because we're the saddest autistic of the sad autistics that spend their time religiously monitoring and updating wikis? -hx 14:28, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The "array" bug has been fixed. We have just upgraded to MediaWiki 1.13 and there may be some minor issues around, but we are not expecting any major problems with the upgrade. Your admins were notified of the change, and can give you more details. -- sannse (talk) 14:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

+sigh+ your idea of minor is nothing like mine, are the database dumps updated? if they are then why are we still here? i feel like wikia is draning all my energy, whats the move date?81.108.233.59 17:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Goodbye, Wikia!

I'm off. See you all over there. Those who don't want to move, have fun!--Nevermore 12:13, 15 September 2008 (UTC)