"You go Joe" and his acrobatics in Philadelphia the next season have cemented his status as a Buc Legend.

Brate and Hump have already passed Jumpin Joe...

I understand your point MDB, but as you usually do, you left it too opaque. In short, can you really include a receiver who caught fewer passes in pewter than the JAG tight end who became a starter week four this year? I can't. Not in a top 25.

This is really a question for the older Bucs fans. Am I leaving out any old timers who are better than the guys at the bottom of the list? Some of the others I considered:Mike WashingtonRicky ReynoldsDewey SelmonCecil JohnsonDave MooreScot BrantleyBrian KellyCedric BrownMark CotneyMark CarrierJohn Cannon

This is really a question for the older Bucs fans. Am I leaving out any old timers who are better than the guys at the bottom of the list? Some of the others I considered:Mike WashingtonRicky ReynoldsDewey SelmonCecil JohnsonDave MooreScot BrantleyBrian KellyCedric BrownMark CotneyMark CarrierJohn Cannon

Should I move anyone in or out?

In - Kevn HouseOut - Joe J

I slept on Kevin House. It's my bad. I would have to give him the nod over Carrier. I was still young when House was here, but looking at his numbers, he must have been one of the most dangerous receivers in the league. He averaged a TD about every 8 catches and put up 17 yards a pop. I don't think many great receiver today manage that.

House can go in, but who should be out? It would have to be Quarles but I'm not happy about that.

mdb1958 wrote:Load your son up with the Buc history and let him decide.

My friend, I think that is your best post ever.

I really haven't touched on anything with him before 2002 besides the obvious horror stories:- Doug and LRS were awesome.- Ricky Bell died too young, though we still should have drafted Tony Dorsett.- Bo had a point but I still hate him.- We traded Steve Young for Vinny Testerverde, basically.- Hugh Culverhouse was the devil.- Shaun King was good but then he got fat.- We got screwed by the refs in '99.- The period between the early 80s and the late 90s was basically a toxic wasteland.- Respect and love always for Tony Dungy.

MJW wrote:I'll address every point, but RE: Joe J, I can't do it. His story, and his two huge moments during that run, are the stuff of legend, but we're still talking about a guy who has half as many career catches for the Bucs as Jacquez Green. I can't put him in the 25 over guys who played ten years for us, which is what I'd have to do.

Gramatica would be a novelty, but does he belong on this list? No.

You're probably correct on You Go Joe! He's not a Top 25. But to me his heart, those big plays, everything he went through, plus what he did to Philly... to bring up Humphries and Brate is an insult.

Brate has already scored more TD's than 9 of our top 25 all time receivers and he still has a locker (so check yourself). My point was, I hope anybody we have had for only 3 years wouldnt make our top 25.

MJW wrote:Gramatica would be a novelty, but does he belong on this list? No.

Dead to me.

How many times would the Bucs be down by a point or two, and you would see Gramatica lining up for a 40+ yarder at the end and think "game over."

Automatica. Check please! Tip your waitress, see you next Sunday.

Though as always I respect your point, Kress...it wasn't so. Advanced metrics are probably kinder to him, but ultimately he never topped 84.4% as our kicker, and that was his rookie year, and he got progressively worse before getting cut in the midst of an 11 for 19 season. His career % is worse here than guys like Todd France and Rian Lindell, and Connor Barth looks like Morten Anderson by comparison.

It is fair to say he was the best kicker in our history. It is also fair to say my 5'7 husband is the best basketball player in our family. I would not enshrine either man.

How many times would the Bucs be down by a point or two, and you would see Gramatica lining up for a 40+ yarder at the end and think "game over."

Automatica. Check please! Tip your waitress, see you next Sunday.

Though as always I respect your point, Kress...it wasn't so. Advanced metrics are probably kinder to him, but ultimately he never topped 84.4% as our kicker, and that was his rookie year, and he got progressively worse before getting cut in the midst of an 11 for 19 season. His career % is worse here than guys like Todd France and Rian Lindell, and Connor Barth looks like Morten Anderson by comparison.

It is fair to say he was the best kicker in our history. It is also fair to say my 5'7 husband is the best basketball player in our family. I would not enshrine either man.

How many times would the Bucs be down by a point or two, and you would see Gramatica lining up for a 40+ yarder at the end and think "game over."

Automatica. Check please! Tip your waitress, see you next Sunday.

Though as always I respect your point, Kress...it wasn't so. Advanced metrics are probably kinder to him, but ultimately he never topped 84.4% as our kicker, and that was his rookie year, and he got progressively worse before getting cut in the midst of an 11 for 19 season. His career % is worse here than guys like Todd France and Rian Lindell, and Connor Barth looks like Morten Anderson by comparison.

It is fair to say he was the best kicker in our history. It is also fair to say my 5'7 husband is the best basketball player in our family. I would not enshrine either man.

My point took place at the end of games. I was probably drunk at the time.

the kicking position by definition is defined by single, big moments (see Norwood and Vinatieri). The missed kick in Green Bay on Christmas Eve, costing us a division title and first round bye and basically being the beginning of the end of Dungy in Tampa is a big mark against his legacy as a Buc.

I know the argument for Sapp is that he was so good he is impossible to leave out, but Keyshawn was pretty important to this franchise as well. Best offensive weapon on our Super Bowl team (outside of Brad) and I can't imagine how putrid our offense would of been in 00 and 01 without him. You could argue our Super Bowl title and two other playoff appearances don't happen without him.

KiffininCanton wrote:the kicking position by definition is defined by single, big moments (see Norwood and Vinatieri). The missed kick in Green Bay on Christmas Eve, costing us a division title and first round bye and basically being the beginning of the end of Dungy in Tampa is a big mark against his legacy as a Buc.

I intentionally chose not to mention that, because it didn't happen so why would I?

Plus a bit unfair, given the number of games he won. At the end of the day, a week 2 win is worth just as much as a week 17 etc.

mdb1958 wrote:Brate has already scored more TD's than 9 of our top 25 all time receivers and he still has a locker (so check yourself). My point was, I hope anybody we have had for only 3 years wouldnt make our top 25.

Most of the who's who has been covered, that's about all I can add off the top of my head.

Davin's a solid choice. Another 2-3 good years here and I think things are different.Penn is another solid one, but I just can't based on how much his departure stings to this day. So stupid.

Chidi is interesting because folks now forget how highly regarded he was. He was sort of the fourth Amigo for awhile on those mid-late 90s front sevens with Sapp, Brooks, and Hardy. The problem I have with him is - and maybe I'm remembering wrong - I recall him talking a lot of **** about the organization and his teammates when he left town.