More ignorant "logic". The very second sperm meets egg............it's a human being. It will not be anything else. No ammount of scientific terms or bullshit semantics will change that.
As was said on SNL. " Wilbur, you ignorant slut".

Oh, please tell me, why is it the pro-abortion side will NOT mention adoption??

01-29-2009, 06:53 PM

ljswisc

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilbur

It is really a curious phenomenon.. the movement spends its time doing its best to convince us that abortion, no matter at what stage, is absolutely, unequivically murder.. but its clear they actually DO make a distinction between an embryo and a living human being because they are not willing to convict a woman of homicide for getting an illegal abortion. Curious indeed.

What about the person who is arrested for robbing a convenience store because they needed to feed their starving children? Does that make not a crime? No. However there is an element of compassion.

On the other hand both people in both situations have alternatives. If we should hold one accountable we should hold the other accountable as well. I have no problem with that.

01-29-2009, 08:52 PM

wilbur

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gingersnap

No, we don't lose anything. You and I have a completely different manner of viewing and framing this issue. Pro-life people haven't "suddenly" said anything new. This is not a matter of rhetoric for us, neither is it an exercise in debate. This is the part you don't understand.

We simply aren't limited by your framework in defining the terms. The fact that the majority of us bring more to the table when we consider the case of a woman who electively aborts doesn't mean that we have stepped into any kind of "gotcha" trap. We have the ability to consider this issue within the light of our own faith and that is more complex than any secular legal code.

What does this mean exactly? I don't see how you can have your cake and eat it too... on one hand you have people in the most vitriolic and forceful way possible doing everything they can to convince us all that abortion is murder, no "ifs", "ands" or "buts"... plain, simple, clear cut rights at conception, period... mothers who would have abortions are selfish, immoral, irresponsible, and worshippers of the self..

Then when it comes time to decide what to do about it... all of the sudden the compassion for the mother comes out (which was mysteriously missing before) and all these layers of complex nuance appear. The actual beliefs in motion are not matching the rhetoric.

01-29-2009, 10:25 PM

Mythic

Quote:

and then look for the point in development where those values come into existence. It's those value judgements are mostly arbitrary.

I consider human life the most important value. Wilbur, you miss the point that a human fetus will ALWAYS become a human baby, then child, then adult. Its called human development. We don't just magically appear fully developed. Should mentally disabled children be killed because they lack characteristics other children do? Of course not.

A human fetus will 100% of the time become a person. (unless it is killed during the pregnancy)

01-29-2009, 11:17 PM

MrsSmith

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlaGator

Here is something you don't read everyday from Hollywood. For once something out of Tinseltown I'm in agreement with.

I understand the hate that is leveled at someone like me who reminds people of this. To contemplate the reality is daunting. The act is horrendous and made more tragic when you consider the numbers of babies that are being disposed of every day.

Our willingness to tolerate such a holocaust says volumes of how our entire culture has been coarsened. How life itself has been cheapened. We are told to have sex any time we feel the urge. Condoms are handed out in grade schools. Promiscuity is not only condoned, itís tacitly encouraged. Illegitimacy has enslaved an entire underclass of our citizens, relegating them to government assistance for a lifetime, bankrupting cities, and holding an entire subculture down in dependent despair. But if you should get pregnant and itís just not a Ďconvenientí time for you, donít worry, there are Family Planning Services, funded, thanks to the likes of Nancy Pelosi, by your tax dollars. That inconvenient fetus can be surgically ripped from its uterine moorings, ground up and tossed into the trash like so much garbage. Problem solved

Very unusual for Hollywood...a man with both brains and a heart. Great find!

01-29-2009, 11:18 PM

FlaGator

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilbur

What does this mean exactly? I don't see how you can have your cake and eat it too... on one hand you have people in the most vitriolic and forceful way possible doing everything they can to convince us all that abortion is murder, no "ifs", "ands" or "buts"... plain, simple, clear cut rights at conception, period... mothers who would have abortions are selfish, immoral, irresponsible, and worshippers of the self..

Then when it comes time to decide what to do about it... all of the sudden the compassion for the mother comes out (which was mysteriously missing before) and all these layers of complex nuance appear. The actual beliefs in motion are not matching the rhetoric.

You can't be that emotionally naive. I can deplore an action but be compassionate to those who see that action as their best choice. Abortion is wrong "no if, ands or buts... plan and simple." Because I believe that does nothing to change my feelings of empathy for the woman and her situation. If I preach abstinence to my daughters and one of them gets pregnant out of wed lock does it make me a hypocrite because I still love her and do what I can to help her? No it does not. I can hate the situation but still recognize that what is done is done and care for the person and do what I can to help them. Equally I can feel abortion is murder but yet feel compassion for the woman who saw abortion as the only solution. I am saddened that you don't seem to have the emotional depth to separate the two.

01-30-2009, 10:40 AM

Gingersnap

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlaGator

You can't be that you are that emotionally naive. I can deplore an action but be compassionate to those who see that action as their best choice. Abortion is wrong "no if, ands or buts... plan and simple." Because I believe that does nothing to change my feelings of empathy for the woman and her situation. If I preach abstinence to my daughters and one of them gets pregnant out of wed lock does it make me a hypocrite because I still love her and do what I can to help her? No it does not. I can hate the situation but still recognize that what is done is done and care for the person and do what I can to help them. Equally I can feel abortion is murder but yet feel compassion for the woman who saw abortion as the only solution. I am saddened that you don't seem to have the emotional depth to separate the two.

Exactly. This is why these discussions never get resolved. This is our worldview. Wilbur's worldview is much more legalistic and narrow. He wants us to play by his own rigid playbook when he doesn't even know the rules in ours (and that playbook isn't confined to the KJV). ;)