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I thought this battle really sucked on first watch. I'm not a fan of Ash losing horribly without a good reason (Indigo used the disobedient Charizard for example as a really good plot device to make him lose the League badly)

This post is covered in irony.

Ash lost horribly, the reason being that he faced two god damn legendary Pokemon managing to defeat one and draw with the other. That was a feat worthy of winning the Sinnoh League since no other trainer managed to do so.

* Ash used have used his entire Hoenn team (Pikachu/Corphish/Torkoal/Sceptile/Swellow/Glalie). I mean Heracross was a strategic pick but he already got a battle before, and Gible featured heavily against Conway. Corphish and Glalie should have been used instead. Corphish/Torkoal/Swellow/Glalie should have taken out Darkrai with Glalie getting the win. Glalie/Sceptile should have taken out Latios with Sceptile getting the win. And Pikachu should have drew against third Legendary.
* Torkoal has battled a Legendary before in Brandon's Registeel and almost beat it. No way it should have died that easily.
* Swellow losing to Latios that quickly was complete PIS considering Swellow built a reputation for stamina and toughness. I would have loved to see an aerial duel before Swellow got KO'd.

"We are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven. That which we are, we are. One equal temper of heroic hearts. Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will. To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."

Takuto is surely insane since his Darkrai wins all but one battle. I think Darkrai learning Reito Bimu is not necessary since it is an ice type move and done little to develop Darkrai. Takuto should command Darkrai to use Nightmare which is much better suit in my opinion.

Takuto is surely insane since his Darkrai wins all but one battle. I think Darkrai learning Reito Bimu is not necessary since it is an ice type move and done little to develop Darkrai. Takuto should command Darkrai to use Nightmare which is much better suit in my opinion.

But these moves should be used before the battle with Takuto. The selling point of a legendary Pokémon is to show off some signature moves or something remarkable. Reito Bimu is being overly used in my opinion especially Hikari's Mimirol knows it.

But these moves should be used before the battle with Takuto. The selling point of a legendary Pokémon is to show off some signature moves or something remarkable. Reito Bimu is being overly used in my opinion especially Hikari's Mimirol knows it.

Darkrai used it's signature move in Dark Void and Latios used Luster Purge. A balanced moveset is key and 4 Moves of the same type just won't work at a high level. Ice Beam is one of the best coverage moves. It's inclusion is justified

Darkrai used it's signature move in Dark Void and Latios used Luster Purge. A balanced moveset is key and 4 Moves of the same type just won't work at a high level. Ice Beam is one of the best coverage moves. It's inclusion is justified

Nightmare is not dark type either. Moreover it makes more sense to use Nightmare than Reito Bimu because that is the strategy to knock out Pokémon while sleeping.

Nightmare is not dark type either. Moreover it makes more sense to use Nightmare than Reito Bimu because that is the strategy to knock out Pokémon while sleeping.

Dream Eater is literally Nightmare with a bonus. It's the better version of Nightmare basically. It'd be pointless to have no the moves in Darkrai's moveset. That'd be like having Ember and Flamethrower instead of discarding Ember for a better move or one with more type coverage

Well, I liked that we got to see Sceptile battle again. And Pikachu vs Latios was pretty epic.
The rest sucked.

I can't help but wonder if Tobias was used on purpose as a deliberate mock of those players who use nothing but legendary pokemon in WiFi battles. If so, then they should have given Darkrai and Latios their shiny colours. That would have been the icing on the cake.

Dream Eater is literally Nightmare with a bonus. It's the better version of Nightmare basically. It'd be pointless to have no the moves in Darkrai's moveset. That'd be like having Ember and Flamethrower instead of discarding Flamethrower for a better move or one with more type coverage

Fine with your argument but I think Darkrai should use other moves that it learns naturally. Nightmare is better suit Darkrai because that is what it is describe to be, the Pokémon who creates nightmares while people or Pokémon are asleep.

First, I was really bummed out at the end of the episode. I mean I really would like to see Ash win a league he deserves it...

Second, Tobias is so cheap, I mean Darkrai and Latios?!!! I mean even if Pikachu would have lasted the battle with Latios I mean Tobias probably would have had Latias or another type of Legendary, in my opinion it just wasn't fair.

Worst league ending ever

This episode was the WORST EVER. I mean seriously Tobias walks in out of nowhere and brings out a Darkrai and Latois who in the games are classified as Uber Pokémon and aren't allowed in competitions such as the Battle Tower or the Pokémon world Tournament. It's totally unfair. He cheated using those Pokémon. Whatever happened to cheaters never prosper. and Tobais didn't even get any character development. He's just this big silent mysterious guy who everyone seems to soil themselves whenever he comes by. I mean if I were Ash and I knew he was competing in the league I would have just quit and tried again the next year. It was almost heartbreaking to watch Heracross, Torkoal and Gible fall without any real fight and Ash become all sad and frustrated when he realises how badly he is going to loose. Thought it certainly wiped the smug smile off Tobias's face when Sceptile beat Darkrai - but then he just pulls out Latios and goes on to knock out Sceptile and Swellow really easily. Then we get to Pikachu who puts up a really decent fight although almost gets killed when they fly so high above the stadium. I'm kinda glad the tied because it gave Ash a sort of positive note to finish on.

But seriously people like to have a go at Cameron from Unova when he beats Ash with only five Pokémon. This bloke Tobais takes out Ash's entire team with only 2 Pokémon which were both legendary. Ash never even had a chance. That's just downright humiliating. At least with Cameron they were evenly matched and both sides put in their all, and Cameron clearly had a strong bond with his Pokémon (especially Lucario). Tobais was just like, Dark void - Your dead Haracross, Dark void - lights out Torkoal, Peekaboo I KO you Gible. Now Darkrai. What's this my Darkai has been knocked out for the first time ever. Oh dear. I'd just better pull out one of my other legendary Pokémon so I can mop the floor with Ash, hurt his best friend Pikachu and crush his hopes and dreams. And it's not even 10:00am. I must say. Not a bad morning. I mean what on earth were the writers thinking. A bloke with legendaries just demolishes Ash and destroys all his hard work and the fans love it despite Tobais cheating, and yet when Ash's friend and kindred spirt Cameron battle their all and Ash looses they hate it despite Cameron having earned the win.

On a positive note, as a romantic Pikashipper I liked the way Ash got a bit of confidence back when he saw the determined look on Pikachu's face and was able to make a reasonable come back with his best friends (or more) assistance. Ash and Pikachu were very much in sync in that last battle. It was a strong finish to an otherwise ridged and unfair match. And then he does the usual of making sure Pikachu is okay and giving him a hug and telling him he did well. It's very sweet. But other than that this was a terrible ending to Ash's journey in Sinnoh. Tobais is easily one of my most hated characters because of this.

This episode was the WORST EVER. I mean seriously Tobias walks in out of nowhere and brings out a Darkrai and Latois who in the games are classified as Uber Pokémon and aren't allowed in competitions such as the Battle Tower or the Pokémon world Tournament. It's totally unfair. He cheated using those Pokémon. Whatever happened to cheaters never prosper. and Tobais didn't even get any character development. He's just this big silent mysterious guy who everyone seems to soil themselves whenever he comes by. I mean if I were Ash and I knew he was competing in the league I would have just quit and tried again the next year. It was almost heartbreaking to watch Heracross, Torkoal and Gible fall without any real fight and Ash become all sad and frustrated when he realises how badly he is going to loose. Thought it certainly wiped the smug smile off Tobias's face when Sceptile beat Darkrai - but then he just pulls out Latios and goes on to knock out Sceptile and Swellow really easily. Then we get to Pikachu who puts up a really decent fight although almost gets killed when they fly so high above the stadium. I'm kinda glad the tied because it gave Ash a sort of positive note to finish on.

Games=/=Amine. There is no such thing as Ubers or Smogon tiers in the anime so that excuse that Tobias "cheated" has absolutely no ground to stand on. If the man went through the effort of capturing not just 1 but 2 (potentially more) Legendaries why shouldn't he get to use them? He captured them. He did the work. So what sense does it make in handicapping himself for the League? Nobody gives Brandon **** for using the Regis. Its not even as if Legendary Pokemon=Instant Win as Heatran trainer didn't even make it to the finals. Fact of the matter is Ash is just 10 years old while Tobias is likely in his 20s or 30s. When Ash is older then he'd stand a chance. They're always going to be stronger trainers than Ash. And no I'm glad they keep Tobias a mystery. That was done on purpose. Better than the usual status quo we got in the 4 other regions where Ash becomes best friends, right before the League, with the trainer who will eventually knock him out.

Originally Posted by Pikachu52

But seriously people like to have a go at Cameron from Unova when he beats Ash with only five Pokémon. This bloke Tobais takes out Ash's entire team with only 2 Pokémon which were both legendary. Ash never even had a chance. That's just downright humiliating. At least with Cameron they were evenly matched and both sides put in their all, and Cameron clearly had a strong bond with his Pokémon (especially Lucario). Tobais was just like, Dark void - Your dead Haracross, Dark void - lights out Torkoal, Peekaboo I KO you Gible. Now Darkrai. What's this my Darkai has been knocked out for the first time ever. Oh dear. I'd just better pull out one of my other legendary Pokémon so I can mop the floor with Ash, hurt his best friend Pikachu and crush his hopes and dreams. And it's not even 10:00am. I must say. Not a bad morning. I mean what on earth were the writers thinking. A bloke with legendaries just demolishes Ash and destroys all his hard work and the fans love it despite Tobais cheating, and yet when Ash's friend and kindred spirt Cameron battle their all and Ash looses they hate it despite Cameron having earned the win.

People have a go at Cameron because it was a terrible battle which just made Ash look terrible after it. At least here Ash took down TWO LEGENDARY POKEMON, one of which the entire Sinnoh region couldn't touch. Hell even the announcer's shock when Sceptile KOs Darkrai says it all. He may have lost here but he goes out with far more credibility than losing, with a handicap, in one of the most tactically devoid and annoying battles in the anime history. Tobias doesn't need to show any shock , surprise or agitation because he's confident enough in his victory. No point in losing my head or panicking when your 4th Pokemon is in a critical state and I have 5 left. And again if it was cheating, Tobias wouldn't have been allowed to compete in the Sinnoh League.
People enjoy Tobias because even despite the loss it still shows Ash's progress as he manages to a.) achieve his highest League rank b.) shows skill by beating 2 Legendary Pokemon in the same battle c.) showcased that Ash was probably the strongest trainer in the Sinnoh League d.) shows Ash still has another level to go reach and that his current end of region DP level can still be bettered leaving room for improvement in BW
which incidentally pisses people off about the Unova League, especially Cameron because it completely regresses not just Ash's DP level, but also his constant improvement in all the previous sagas.

Originally Posted by Pikachu52

On a positive note, as a romantic Pikashipper I liked the way Ash got a bit of confidence back when he saw the determined look on Pikachu's face and was able to make a reasonable come back with his best friends (or more) assistance. Ash and Pikachu were very much in sync in that last battle. It was a strong finish to an otherwise ridged and unfair match. And then he does the usual of making sure Pikachu is okay and giving him a hug and telling him he did well. It's very sweet. But other than that this was a terrible ending to Ash's journey in Sinnoh. Tobais is easily one of my most hated characters because of this.

And again you keep mentioning cheating when there was none involved so there's that.

I actually thought the battle in this episode wasn't as bad as it seemed, in fact I thought it was pretty epic that Ash took down 2 legendary Pokemon when no one has ever beat Tobias' Darkrai. It was also clear that Ash was the 2nd strongest in this league and he only lost because the writers needed to keep him in the anime at the time. I honestly wouldn't mind a repeat of this battle if Ash needs to lose in a future league.
10/10

I actually thought the battle in this episode wasn't as bad as it seemed, in fact I thought it was pretty epic that Ash took down 2 legendary Pokemon when no one has ever beat Tobias' Darkrai. It was also clear that Ash was the 2nd strongest in this league and he only lost because the writers needed to keep him in the anime at the time. I honestly wouldn't mind a repeat of this battle if Ash needs to lose in a future league.
10/10

I wished Ash picked different Pokemon. He should have went full Hoenn team, instead of using Heracross and Gible again (even if they were good picks, they already got battles at the League). And I can't forgive how Swellow got shafted; it's as if the writers didn't watch AG.

Great battle that made Ash look impressive, although it wasn't perfect.

"We are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven. That which we are, we are. One equal temper of heroic hearts. Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will. To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."

I still think it's cheating

Originally Posted by Dark/Legendary Master

Games=/=Amine. There is no such thing as Ubers or Smogon tiers in the anime so that excuse that Tobias "cheated" has absolutely no ground to stand on. If the man went through the effort of capturing not just 1 but 2 (potentially more) Legendaries why shouldn't he get to use them? He captured them. He did the work. So what sense does it make in handicapping himself for the League? Nobody gives Brandon **** for using the Regis. Its not even as if Legendary Pokemon=Instant Win as Heatran trainer didn't even make it to the finals. Fact of the matter is Ash is just 10 years old while Tobias is likely in his 20s or 30s. When Ash is older then he'd stand a chance. They're always going to be stronger trainers than Ash. And no I'm glad they keep Tobias a mystery. That was done on purpose. Better than the usual status quo we got in the 4 other regions where Ash becomes best friends, right before the League, with the trainer who will eventually knock him out.

People have a go at Cameron because it was a terrible battle which just made Ash look terrible after it. At least here Ash took down TWO LEGENDARY POKEMON, one of which the entire Sinnoh region couldn't touch. Hell even the announcer's shock when Sceptile KOs Darkrai says it all. He may have lost here but he goes out with far more credibility than losing, with a handicap, in one of the most tactically devoid and annoying battles in the anime history. Tobias doesn't need to show any shock , surprise or agitation because he's confident enough in his victory. No point in losing my head or panicking when your 4th Pokemon is in a critical state and I have 5 left. And again if it was cheating, Tobias wouldn't have been allowed to compete in the Sinnoh League.
People enjoy Tobias because even despite the loss it still shows Ash's progress as he manages to a.) achieve his highest League rank b.) shows skill by beating 2 Legendary Pokemon in the same battle c.) showcased that Ash was probably the strongest trainer in the Sinnoh League d.) shows Ash still has another level to go reach and that his current end of region DP level can still be bettered leaving room for improvement in BW
which incidentally pisses people off about the Unova League, especially Cameron because it completely regresses not just Ash's DP level, but also his constant improvement in all the previous sagas.

And again you keep mentioning cheating when there was none involved so there's that.

Well first of all we don't know anything about Tobais or how he happened to catch 2 legendary Pokémon. He comes out of no where with no backstory and no real reason to be there. He was a character designed to beat Ash and nothing more. With Cameron, and every other rival Ash has lost to there has been a large amount of character development and there was a bond between them. Ash seemed to regard Cameron as a kindred spirt and Cameron embodied a lot of what the Anime stands for - that is friendship and kindness. He won because he had a strong bond with Riolu and Riolu evolved to make Cameron proud of him. Cameron did not make Ash look terrible. They both battled their best and Cameron happened to come out the winner - thats just the way things are sometimes. At least Cameron earned that victory whereas Tobais just pulls out his Uber Pokémon and crushes Ash's hopes and dreams without batting an eyelid. Also Ash did not take down two legendary Pokémon. Latios was a double KO.

And while it's not unreasonable Ash loose to a trainer he's never met before, why did have to be a totally over powered trainer with legendaries. Tobais was always going to win. We knew it going in. Even if Ash were the strongest in the Sinnoh league it was still unfair he got whipped out by a legendary user. Tobias showed connection or bond with his Pokemon. He didn't say anything nice to Latios whereas Cameron was happily spinning Lucario round and round. It was cute. Tobias just look like he was using them as battle slaves. He gave off a harsh and cold demeanour. When you saw him taking the cup it felt like the wrong person had won. When Virgil won in Unova you had a good feeling. Sort of if Ash didn't win at least someone who deserved it did.

I don't see the fact that Ash obtained a higher ranking in Sinnoh than Unova as a good enough excuse to have a go at Cameron. Ash was just lucky that he didn't have to face Tobais until that point in the competition. If he had had the misfortune to meet him in the preliminary rounds it would have been all over red rover before the match even started. I agree a better way to have done Unova would have been to have Ash face and loose to Cameron in the Semi finals or finals (and possibly have Cameron win the league) and have Ash defeat Virgil in the Quarter finals (which I think he could have done with his Unova team). I don't actually think Ash was any better in Sinnoh than Unova. His Pokémon were relatively high powered and able to pull off some impressive feats. I think it's perfectly plausible that Snivy could have defeated Darkrai. She as strong as Sceptile or at least has the potential to be.

As for cheating. Yes he was not stopped from entering the league with the two legendary Pokémon but I have to wonder what the writers were thinking when they created a character who uses legendary Pokémon. To me using legendary Pokémon in a regional championship (in which all the other Pokémon are not legendary) would be like Ian Thorpe entering the Weet-bix Triathlon and blood doping to improve his performance. Given it's rare in the games for someone to use legendary Pokémon and even the champion does not it's almost a little insulting to fans of Ash and Pikachu to see a bloke with 2 bloody legendaries come in and mop the floor with the entire tournament and destroy everyones hard work effortlessly. Ash worked so hard to be in the league he did not deserve to get owed by some unknown bloke with legendary Pokémon. The legendary or legendaries that the player obtains are always linked to the story line or are caught as event Pokémon post game. For goodness sake, not even the elite four or Cynthia use legendary Pokémon and they are the strongest trainers in Sinnoh.

Yes, Brandon did use the reggi trio but Brandon is a special case. First of all he is identified as a very strong trainer who only the best take on. This is true in the games as well - you have to defeat the battle frontier to battle him. Secondly Brandon received some character development and aside from his tough guy act it was clear he had compassion for his Pokémon. Thirdly Brandon uses other Pokémon not just three legendaries and he was not competition in a competition that seemed like it was mostly for children. Finally Brandon was an archeologist so it's not hard to see how he obtained them. With Tobias it is never explained and I personally believe it could have been fraudulent.

Well first of all we don't know anything about Tobais or how he happened to catch 2 legendary Pokémon. He comes out of no where with no backstory and no real reason to be there. He was a character designed to beat Ash and nothing more. With Cameron, and every other rival Ash has lost to there has been a large amount of character development and there was a bond between them. Ash seemed to regard Cameron as a kindred spirt and Cameron embodied a lot of what the Anime stands for - that is friendship and kindness. He won because he had a strong bond with Riolu and Riolu evolved to make Cameron proud of him. Cameron did not make Ash look terrible. They both battled their best and Cameron happened to come out the winner - thats just the way things are sometimes. At least Cameron earned that victory whereas Tobais just pulls out his Uber Pokémon and crushes Ash's hopes and dreams without batting an eyelid. Also Ash did not take down two legendary Pokémon. Latios was a double KO.

Say hello to Ritchie, Harrison, Tyson and Cameron. Only difference was that the writers decided to forgo the usual buddy buddy route that they did with the aforementioned four. Cameron didn't make Ash look bad? Snivy, Oshawott, and Unfezant were made into cannon fodder and Ash lost to a guy who didn't even bring 6 Pokemon and thought you needed 7 badges to enter the League. It wasn't even as if he was treated as a genius savant, he was just an idiot period. There is a reason Ash vs. Cameron is almost universally referred to as the worst League battle in the anime's tenure. Cameron earned that victory? And Tobias didn't? You're right Tobias should just have coddled Ash's hands and weakened hmself and his team to make it a fairer fight amirite? F that. Ash's fault his Pokemon weren't on Tobias's level. Tobias isn't meant to care about Ash's dreams and aspirations. Its a competition. He's there to win. Not as if Ash didn't do the same to all the opponents he baet or Cameron to Ash when he beat him.

Originally Posted by Pikachu52

And while it's not unreasonable Ash loose to a trainer he's never met before, why did have to be a totally over powered trainer with legendaries. Tobais was always going to win. We knew it going in. Even if Ash were the strongest in the Sinnoh league it was still unfair he got whipped out by a legendary user. Tobias showed connection or bond with his Pokemon. He didn't say anything nice to Latios whereas Cameron was happily spinning Lucario round and round. It was cute. Tobias just look like he was using them as battle slaves. He gave off a harsh and cold demeanour. When you saw him taking the cup it felt like the wrong person had won. When Virgil won in Unova you had a good feeling. Sort of if Ash didn't win at least someone who deserved it did.

What Tobias was supposed to sweet talk Latios during the battle? Its a battle. Big shock he's focused more in battling at the time than "showing connection or bond." Being more focused on the battle makes his Pokemon battle slaves then. Ok. Great conclusion from the nonexistent evidence.
If you're really comparing a loss to a possible Elite 4 tier opponent who destroyed an entire region to a loss to a guy who can't even figure out the Unova League is suppossed to take place in Unova then I'll be here laughing.

Originally Posted by Pikachu52

I don't see the fact that Ash obtained a higher ranking in Sinnoh than Unova as a good enough excuse to have a go at Cameron. Ash was just lucky that he didn't have to face Tobais until that point in the competition. If he had had the misfortune to meet him in the preliminary rounds it would have been all over red rover before the match even started. I agree a better way to have done Unova would have been to have Ash face and loose to Cameron in the Semi finals or finals (and possibly have Cameron win the league) and have Ash defeat Virgil in the Quarter finals (which I think he could have done with his Unova team). I don't actually think Ash was any better in Sinnoh than Unova. His Pokémon were relatively high powered and able to pull off some impressive feats. I think it's perfectly plausible that Snivy could have defeated Darkrai. She as strong as Sceptile or at least has the potential to be.

Ash in Unova was a blatant regression from his DP, hell from his BF and AG days. Ash didn't have the misfortune. So what? Fact remains he still obtained his highest rank to date in a Pokemon League competition in Sinnoh and regressed from that Top 4 rank in Unova. And Snivy, the same Snivy that was treated as a punching bag for most of the BW series, the same Snivy that has the 2nd worst W/L ratio out of all of Ash's Pokemon, would have beaten Darkrai? Please.

Originally Posted by Pikachu52

As for cheating. Yes he was not stopped from entering the league with the two legendary Pokémon but I have to wonder what the writers were thinking when they created a character who uses legendary Pokémon. To me using legendary Pokémon in a regional championship (in which all the other Pokémon are not legendary) would be like Ian Thorpe entering the Weet-bix Triathlon and blood doping to improve his performance. Given it's rare in the games for someone to use legendary Pokémon and even the champion does not it's almost a little insulting to fans of Ash and Pikachu to see a bloke with 2 bloody legendaries come in and mop the floor with the entire tournament and destroy everyones hard work effortlessly. Ash worked so hard to be in the league he did not deserve to get owed by some unknown bloke with legendary Pokémon. The legendary or legendaries that the player obtains are always linked to the story line or are caught as event Pokémon post game. For goodness sake, not even the elite four or Cynthia use legendary Pokémon and they are the strongest trainers in Sinnoh. Yes, Brandon did use the reggi trio but Brandon is a special case. First of all he is identified as a very strong trainer who only the best take on. This is true in the games as well - you have to defeat the battle frontier to battle him. Also Brandon received some character development and aside from his tough guy act it was clear he had compassion for his Pokémon. Also Brandon uses other Pokémon not just three legendaries and he was not competition in a competition that seemed like it was mostly for children.

Sucks for Ash and everyone in the League then. There's nothing stopping them from going out to catch and train Legendary Pokemon of their own now is there? No. Then good on Tobias for deciding that is the best path to victory and going and completing the arduous task of obtaining said Legendary Pokemon.
The E4 and Cynthia don't use Legendaries? So what. There is not a said defined path to becoming the strongest now is there. And this is not even touching upon how strong Tobias's Pokemon would have to be to even stand a chance when he went to capture said Legendaries in the first place. The conventional route to facing the E4 is through the League. Ergo he wants to beat the E4 and challenge Cynthia for her spot. So yes he's going to bring his OP team through the League to win it and gain acess to battling the E4 and possibly Cynthia.
The blood doping example holds no merit since it is not cheating to start with no matter how much you try to claim it is.

I personally didn't care for Swellow and Torkoal being destroyed so quickly (Swellow because it can do much better, and Torkoal because it loses a lot) but that's forgivable for obvious reasons. It was a good episode and the Pikachu vs. Latios was really enjoyable.

---

But just because the episode was enjoyable, doesn't mean the episode should have happened. There are some aspects that were really bad. Firstly the writing was kind of lazy. How much sense does it make that someone could use one Pokemon to sweep through a competition designed to find a champion? If his only competition is so much weaker than he is, then how did he get that strong in the first place? You could argue that instead of making Ash look good, Tobias made every Sinnoh gym and every competitor in the Pokemon League look awful.

This episode also really made it clear that Ash was never going to win a Pokemon League, and the fact that the main character will never succeed is not something you want to convince your viewers.

One other problem I had was that Pikachu and Latios looked dead when the battle finished. I don't think the Pokemon should have to battle until they look like they're about to die. Battles can still be enjoyable without the overly brutal scenes. >_>

I still think the comparison is apt

Originally Posted by Dark/Legendary Master

Say hello to Ritchie, Harrison, Tyson and Cameron. Only difference was that the writers decided to forgo the usual buddy buddy route that they did with the aforementioned four. Cameron didn't make Ash look bad? Snivy, Oshawott, and Unfezant were made into cannon fodder and Ash lost to a guy who didn't even bring 6 Pokemon and thought you needed 7 badges to enter the League. It wasn't even as if he was treated as a genius savant, he was just an idiot period. There is a reason Ash vs. Cameron is almost universally referred to as the worst League battle in the anime's tenure. Cameron earned that victory? And Tobias didn't? You're right Tobias should just have coddled Ash's hands and weakened hmself and his team to make it a fairer fight amirite? F that. Ash's fault his Pokemon weren't on Tobias's level. Tobias isn't meant to care about Ash's dreams and aspirations. Its a competition. He's there to win. Not as if Ash didn't do the same to all the opponents he baet or Cameron to Ash when he beat him.

Better loosing to a person with 5 Pokémon than a bloke with just 2. It was more humiliating that Ash lost to legendaries than to Cameron by far. Also I'm not denying that Ash vs Cameron is not disappointing in many ways but better loosing to Cameron than to an totally Over Powered trainer without any backstory. That really is taking the Pi**. My comment was that I'm surprised people are more upset with Ash v Cameron than Ash v Tobias. I have expressed misgivings about Ash v Cameron but it was no where near as unfair as Ash v Tobias and I don't the hatred directed at Cameron is fair given the circumstance. To some extent Cameron is probably a better trainer than Ash as he was shown to have a strong diverse team and a good strategy for the most part. He even had a Hyrdriegon which was at least as strong as Ash's Charizard and knocked out Oshawott and Boldore the same way Darkrai did. Some of it came down to luck but thats jus the way things are sometimes. Tobias on the other hand didn't even need to try. He had the victory handed to him on a platter before the league had even begun thanks to Darkrai. I'm not suggesting Tobias care about Ash in that way or weaken himself. What would have been nice is a fair match up like every other battle in the league so far. I mean Tobias must have realised his victory was assured from the very start. Everyone else goes it knowing the next battle could be their last as did everyone Ash lost to previously. The whole stadium knew Tobias was going to win and at one point Ash looked like he was seriously considering a forfeit. Brock even suggested Ash should do just that.

Originally Posted by Dark/Legendary Master

What Tobias was supposed to sweet talk Latios during the battle? Its a battle. Big shock he's focused more in battling at the time than "showing connection or bond." Being more focused on the battle makes his Pokemon battle slaves then. Ok. Great conclusion from the nonexistent evidence.
If you're really comparing a loss to a possible Elite 4 tier opponent who destroyed an entire region to a loss to a guy who can't even figure out the Unova League is suppossed to take place in Unova then I'll be here laughing.

I did not suggest Tobias was supposed to sweet talk Latios. A look of concern, some friendly encouragement, something that made him look human would have been nice. All we got was the cold and almost arrogant demeanour from a long haired pillock. All I was asking for is that he stroked Latios's head and thanked him the way Ash did Pikachu. The fact he shows no emotion or concern even when his faithful Darkrai was knocked out is what I base my comment about battle slaves on. That is all. And at least Cameron has an interesting personality. The fact he was a bit quirky and forgetful was funny and made people smile. Tobias did nothing but look coldy at the battle and terrify anyone who dare approach him.

And I am comparing The Tobias and Cameron battles in that it's odd people are happy with Ash loosing to a bloke with two Pokemon but not one with five and that Ash lost to a character only writen to win. A Tobias is is a symbol Ash will never win a league. Furthermore if he is a cheater then he is hardly elite four material.

Originally Posted by Dark/Legendary Master

Ash in Unova was a blatant regression from his DP, hell from his BF and AG days. Ash didn't have the misfortune. So what? Fact remains he still obtained his highest rank to date in a Pokemon League competition in Sinnoh and regressed from that Top 4 rank in Unova. And Snivy, the same Snivy that was treated as a punching bag for most of the BW series, the same Snivy that has the 2nd worst W/L ratio out of all of Ash's Pokemon, would have beaten Darkrai? Please.

Snivy was not shown to be a weak Pokémon. She was strong enough to take out Trip's Servine on one occasion, She beat Clay's Palpitoad without taking a single hit and she one of Ash's most used Pokémon in the series. Her win loss ratio is not that much worse than sceptics. Also sceptile has the same win loss ratio as Oshawott. Maybe Oshy could have beaten Darkrai. Furthermore Pignite has a better win loss ratio than Sceptile and given the type advantage could possibly have taken out Darkrai.

Just because Ash finished one step behind in Unova than he did in Sinnoh does not make it a regression. He's not going to do brilliantly all the time and it's more realistic to see him do slightly worse the next time round. Can anyone involved in any form of high level competition honestly say they have constantly improved without any exception. The main thing to do is to learn from your mistakes and try to improve for next time. Not an unreasonable point for the anime to make given it is a children's show. His Pokémon are not any better or worse in terms of their achievements in Unova than they have been in any other region and nobody seems to have consider that the level of competition in Unova, with the exception of Tobias may have been much higher than in Sinnoh, evidence by the fact that Ash finished a run lower there than he did in Sinnoh. Cameron is probably a better trainer than Paul given he has a team of six fully evolved Pokémon and he is show to treat them with kindness and respect, where as Paul did not and relied on strength and cruelty.

Originally Posted by Dark/Legendary Master

Sucks for Ash and everyone in the League then. There's nothing stopping them from going out to catch and train Legendary Pokemon of their own now is there? No. Then good on Tobias for deciding that is the best path to victory and going and completing the arduous task of obtaining said Legendary Pokemon.
The E4 and Cynthia don't use Legendaries? So what. There is not a said defined path to becoming the strongest now is there. And this is not even touching upon how strong Tobias's Pokemon would have to be to even stand a chance when he went to capture said Legendaries in the first place. The conventional route to facing the E4 is through the League. Ergo he wants to beat the E4 and challenge Cynthia for her spot. So yes he's going to bring his OP team through the League to win it and gain acess to battling the E4 and possibly Cynthia.
The blood doping example holds no merit since it is not cheating to start with no matter how much you try to claim it is.

You suggest that Tobias caught the legendary Pokémon himself. There is no evidence to support that as we don't know anything about Tobias other than he has Darkrai and Latios. For all we know he's a rich kid who hired Pokémon Hunter J to track down and capture them for him. Given she is the only person in the show to capture legendaries other than Brandon it's not a unlikely scenario. As for other competitors capturing legendaries - the anime on some occasions has suggested that you aren't meant to. In the movie Pokémon 2000 the plot revolves around the fact that Lawrence III's attempts to capture the 3 birds causes an imbalance to the forces of nature and puts the world at risk. When Team Rocket tries to capture Landerous, Thunderous and Tornadus on Milos Island it causes destruction to the entire island. In the Chronicles series, the Legend of Thunder Eugene explains that trying to capture of tame Raikou would hurt it. Furthermore Team Rocket's attempt to capture Cresselia in Sleepless in Pre-battle it's seen as a bad thing even though said Cresselia was wild. As Cresselia is part of the lunar duo with Darkrai it doesn't seem any more reasonable that Tobias should have Darkrai than Jessie, James and Meowth should have Cresselia. When Team's Aqua and Magma tried to control Groudon and Kyogre it was a disaster. Why is Tobias any better for having Darkrai.

The comparison I am making is that it is odd that fans will hate on Cameron for winning with 5 Pokémon when Tobias did the same thing with 2. The inclusion of Tobias was completely unfair and I do consider the use of legendaries in this context cheating for the reasons I have explained.

Ash lost horribly, the reason being that he faced two god damn legendary Pokemon managing to defeat one and draw with the other. That was a feat worthy of winning the Sinnoh League since no other trainer managed to do so.

People seem to put a lot of emphasis on how much of a feat this was. Yes it was impressive on the part of Ash but he still lost to a trainer with only two Pokčmon. And yet everyone hates it when he looses to a trainer with five. Although Ash fought the good fight it was still a horrible loss and totally unfair a trainer with Uber Pokémon was allowed to compete

People seem to put a lot of emphasis on how much of a feat this was. Yes it was impressive on the part of Ash but he still lost to a trainer with only two Pokčmon. And yet everyone hates it when he looses to a trainer with five. Although Ash fought the good fight it was still a horrible loss and totally unfair a trainer with Uber Pokémon was allowed to compete

2 Legendaries>5 Pokemon (3 of which were essentially sacrifice (Samuwott and Swanna vs. Pikachu? Really. Ferrothorn vs. Pignite? A piss take in its own right)). This Uber stuff you keep talking about doesn't exist in the anime so stop trying to bring Smogon tiers into this.

2 Legendaries>5 Pokemon (3 of which were essentially sacrifice (Samuwott and Swanna vs. Pikachu? Really. Ferrothorn vs. Pignite? A piss take in its own right)). This Uber stuff you keep talking about doesn't exist in the anime so stop trying to bring Smogon tiers into this.

In Ash's battle with Tobias Heracross, Torkoal, Gible and Swellow were also essentially sacrifice. Even more so than Samuwott and Swanna given that Heracross and Torkoal went down with 1 hit despite Heracross's type advantage. It wasn't that impressive. The only interesting parts of the battle where Sceptile vs Darkrai, which was over quite quickly, and Pikachu vs Latios at which point the battle had already been decided anyway. And even at that Sceptile wasn't that interesting. He gets hit by dark void, wakes up and manages to knock out Darkrai. Against expectations granted but more sheer luck than anything. Ash probably should have forfeited and saved Pikachu the effort (and Brock did speculate whether he should do just that). Even if the Smogon tiers aren't cannon in the anime the fact remains that a trainer enters the league with 2 or more legendaries with no backstory and no explanation as to how he obtained them. If that isn't a massive piss take then I don't know what is. It would have been better if we had a) found out a little bit more about Tobias's past and b) got to see more Pokémon. Every other time a trainer uses legendary Pokémon more explanation is given. Bradon is an archeologist who studies myths and legends so it's easy to see how he obtained the reggi trio. Nolan from Battle Frontier is stated to have befriended articuno and it seemed that Articuno just fought for him as a friend rather than having been captured. Tobias is a minor character who comes out of nowhere and will most likely never appear again. Now that is taking the piss.

Jessie: Is it me or is Darkrai strong?
James: What a keen grasp of the obvious.

Also Tobias taunted Ash so hard. When he revealed Latios he said "To think I'm using my 2nd Pokemon here in this Pokeball!" The emphasis on Pokeball was heavy. Having a Latios is no big deal. Catching it in a Pokeball? You're done Ash.