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If back off sets with an assistance lift works after a heavy single on the main lift... screw xyz, do what works.

I regard to the stuff posted on the bulgarian method I think its important to keep in mind that it is a system and not a template. And a system thats been in use for decades is bound to change from its original form be it the requirements of the lifter or the coach's interpretation. I've come across quite a bit of info by lifters who've trained under "Uncle" Ivan and it would seem the above statement holds true... the specifics of each lifters regime was different than the next even if the big picture appear to be the same: 2-3 sessions a day, 6-7 days a week, focus on the main lifts and only a few assistance lifts.

As mentioned in the quote before, I've come across a few example of the down sets being used for assistance lifts but one should remember olympic assistance work are more or less partial movements of the full lift. A full snatch to a power snatch as opposed to a squat to a good morning. I however came across more examples that showed the lifter working up to a max on the main lift and then reattempting the same load for multiple singles or doing down a little for more single and sometimes back up in weight.

Doubles and sometime triples don't appear to be used frequently because the technical requirements of a snatch/c&j at such a heavy load. And heavy loads are favor more so because olympic weightlifting is a very techniqual sport and the leverages and motions of the body in performing a 180kg snatch is much different than a 200kg snatch. IE: practicing 180 won't take you as far as practicing with 200.

Adapting the bulgarian method to the slow lifts is obviously open to much greater interperation. The main lifts are different, the depands of the lifts are different, and the slow lifts can be driven up by performing that same lift as much as it can be driven up by one that is completely different.

I do believe that the bulgarian method in its truest form can only be used effectively by those gifted and/or assistance. Beyond that, I do think many of the concepts of the method can be used by anyone with good results. It may no longer be the bulgarian method... but who cares. The strength community should be concerned with doing what it takes to get stronger, not splitting hairs. Most will never reach a point where there is an ultra fine line between to much work and to little work, the right selection of set/reps/lifts and the wrong selection. I suppose the point of this thread.

Adapting the bulgarian method to the slow lifts is obviously open to much greater interperation.

This is something we've talked about for years. It was actually a conversation I tried to have with Broz, though he was more interested in going on the attack. In his defense, he probably saw me as another mindless Interwebz Jedi on the attack.

The discussions we had a few years back related to the eccentric demands of the powerlift compared to Olympic lifting. There were some guys that had it in their head that they could simply ram every lift, every day no matter what, and that any feedback they were receiving was merely "dark days" or something along these lines.

It was hard to have a discussion about the unique demands of individual lifts, including discussion of eccentric demands.

How one handles the frequency of an eccentric-heavy lift is very unique. This is not to say that work capacity and volume can't be increased, but rather that a trainee should ease into things. Obvious to us, but not so obvious to guys looking to jump into C&P or Broz or Bulgarian or Aita squatting or whatever because men tend to lead too often with guns blazing.

Years back we had several guys on this forum that were drinking the Kool-aid by the gallon, viewing it as a template and not seeing the bigger picture. When we tried to pull them back we were viewed as weak, or pussies. In fact, one of them called Broz here for this very reason and started a battle between Broz and myself because the kid believed jumping from point A to Z was wise.

I probably sound conversative to many, but I would rather see a lifter learn what they can do with squatting 2x per week first before trying 3x per week, and so on, an so forth.

With this accumulated experience a lifter can then better fasten/tweak programs that are very intense as they move towards an advanced stage. Just my opinion, mileage may vary.

Quote:

I regard to the stuff posted on the bulgarian method I think its important to keep in mind that it is a system and not a template.

I think we view it as such. My interest is more in specific approaches, such as the assistance work used as back off sets. I enjoy reading about new tools like this.

I don't view programming at this level using the powerlifts as something that can be easily templated for mass consumption. When it comes to high frequency training, I am more interested in breaking the machine down and stealing parts. I don't want someone's program, I want their parts so I can build my own.

Not to sound dismissive, but I have no interest nor infatuation with the Bulgarians, Russians, Broz, Chaos and Pain, or anyone else who uses/practices high frequency lifting. My interest is in stealing ideas and concepts, and using them to build better programs for beginners to late intermediates.

Beyond this, no tool is more important to me then the effort. I like studying programming, program structure and program variables, but this interest is a hobby. Moving iron is my passion. I rarely stick to programs, perhaps to my detriment.

Anyway, good thoughts. I think Fazc and myself are very similar in that we like stealing the parts from a machine and building our own machines.

Olympic programming isn't something I will ever care too much about. I love the lifts and the sport, but my heart is with helping the average Joe reach his goals...and perhaps to help his see new possibilities and new avenues.

Let's face it, 99.9% of the young men moving iron today only know of splits and supersets. If I can steal parts from advanced programs and find ways to recycle them into non-advanced programming to allow for the improvement of performance and the opening of doors, then I will be happy.

I am fascinated by this thread, but I can't escape the idea that there is no such thing as the perfect solution and seeking it might be detrimental.

What's perfect for one person won't be perfect for another, pushing too hard and incurring injuires, pushing too little and not increasing fast enough, etc. etc. Always seeking perfection in method might be a flaw in and of itself. There is no perfection. What worked for xyz, won't work for abc.

Nor should it. People are different. Body adaptations are different. Brutally micro-analayzing historically great routines of past champions are wonderful, for guys who are similar to past champions. Not many of those around now, though.

BtB's point is crucial. What pieces work, and how can most folk incorporate those pieces that match them into their own routines. That is the question.

The longer I try to be xyz, perhaps the longer it will be until I am best MikeM I can be. I will get stronger day by day as long as I work hard using any routine. But, if I hurt myself trying to be what I'm not, or wear myself (and worse, my family life) out by pushing too hard, or I focus too hard on one goal without realizing I may have a few different goals in the next few years, then I am limiting myself despite my maximum efforts in the gym.

I want to be the best MikeM I can be. That requires a balance and a realization that I am what I am.

__________________
I am Anton Zdravko Martin!

Best meet lifts: Sq 150 Kg (330 lb), Bench 120 Kg (264), DL 160 (352) @89 Kg (197)
Best gym lifts: Sq 375, Bench 280 (pause), DL 385 @205 or less
Goals: 3/4/5 while healthy and fit
"Hack away at anything which isn't essential. Do what you love, and do it often." Fazc.
"Everything competes for recovery so more assistance is not always the best idea." miked96
"Squat:15 sets of 3 with 150Kg
Deadlift:15 sets of 3 with 150Kg
It's not rocket science." Big Swede

I am fascinated by this thread, but I can't escape the idea that there is no such thing as the perfect solution and seeking it might be detrimental.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pull14

Most will never reach a point where there is an ultra fine line between to much work and to little work, the right selection of set/reps/lifts and the wrong selection. I suppose the point of this thread.

Yep pretty much. I'd say it's almost impossible to find a plan which works year round, things inevitably need to be changed for a variety of reasons. An example at the most basic level is sets/reps, singles may be just what is needed for a few weeks/months but at some point it's worth backing off for triples. That's just one very simple example; for most good lifters this just happens through the ebb and flow of training, what we do here is similar except we document those changes and discuss them.

Even top coaches wouldn't just lay a plan out and tell the trainee to come back in 3 months, guys like Pendlay has noted that they generally have a rough weeks plan with their lifters which is subject to change and they re-evaluate from there. It's just the way things are done when you move past whatever highly prescribed system is out there. It's not so much the searching for the perfect program as it is the constant evaluation of what's going on. Add on top of that mine and Steve's interest in these types of things and you get a 50+ page thread!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

Beyond this, no tool is more important to me then the effort. I like studying programming, program structure and program variables, but this interest is a hobby. Moving iron is my passion. I rarely stick to programs, perhaps to my detriment.

Anyway, good thoughts. I think Fazc and myself are very similar in that we like stealing the parts from a machine and building our own machines.

Yep, lifting is my first passion (even after Jack Daniels) and I've always felt you don't get anywhere without thinking about what you're doing. Ultimately that more can be accomplished if you find ways around a supposed ceiling than if you give in to it. That's pretty much what I've been doing the past few years and what we've been doing here in this thread.

You're stated that you must come off as 150% focused on results. Just wanted to say that I'm right there with you. All these tools and ideas serve only one purpose to me, and that is to be plugged in so I can hit a bigger squat and deadlift.

Each year what I believe to be possible changes. A few years ago I thought a 600 squat impossible. Now I want 700 before age 50. I might not get there for whatever reason, but I believe it's possible.

Fazc always says he is accused of being fixated on results but at the end of the day, if you are powerlifting like he is, it's all about numbers on the board, i.e results! This of course does not apply to people who just want to lift weights casually but in fairness, you shouldn't be in the gym unless you wish to make some form of progression whether it is through weight on the bar, reps, having a better physique, conditioning etc.

You don't have to be uber serious but it would be a shame to spend time in a gym and not have a degree of progress to show for it. Just being in the gym is great but we should always challenge ourselves to be better, perform better. It doesn't matter how humble a goal is so long as you have one.

Personally, I wish to get stronger so if I can't lift X amount, I have failed in my own opinion, hence my squat frustration.

5 months into this program. My raw totals are up nearly 200 pounds during this time.

Recently I fell into a pattern of only working to a heavy single or double on most squat and deadlift days. While this is not optimal, I found it allowed me to heal several minor strains, and will return to using method this when I pick up a strain or pain. My numbers still appear to be going up, even with this minimal volume. I have hit PRs during this time, including a huge squat PR.

I am currently squatting heavy 3x a week, working to a max set for that day. Some days it's a max double, some days a single, some days are merely survival mode. Bench I have been hitting heavy 2-3x a week, and deadlifts have been 3x a week but using:

Day 1 - Heavy deads
Day 2 - Rack pull and shrug
Day 3 - RDLs

At my first meet 5 months ago I hit a 1501 raw total. At minimum in April I expect a 1650 total, though 1700 is a possibility.