Many changes in the future will be occurring to balance out the economy. One of our goals is to remove "free money" which essentially requires no specific effort to obtain. As a first step, the Bureaucrat perk to earn interest on bank accounts is being removed. However, other ways to earn money through effort or risk will be considered for future features for the Bureaucrat profession, so money-related perks aren't out entirely, just the "free" money cases._________________"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato

that's too bad for crats. Doesn't surprise me though._________________All explorers are seeking something they have lost. It is seldom they find it, and more seldom still that the attainment brings them greater happiness than the quest.

I feel confident we can provide enjoyable options for Bureaucrats without having such an imbalancing effect on the game. Everyone will be better off for it, Bureaucrats included._________________"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato

Better off for NOT getting free money....yeah because free money is baaaaaaad

Can we have a hint of what will be coming up for Bureaucrats?_________________S.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The real issue isnt whether or not there is a morally acceptable amount of sex or violence, the real issue is; how can we put more sex in our violence?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xavain Gramorham says, "Yet you wanted to marry Mellie."
You hear the voice of Yaru Dex say, "For her MONEY geez! Not her VA****!."

Better off for NOT getting free money....yeah because free money is baaaaaaad

if you consider the sake of the Haelrahv's economy, yes, players logging on and just getting free month just because they logged on is definitely bad._________________A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.

if you consider the sake of the Haelrahv's economy, yes, players logging on and just getting free month just because they logged on is definitely bad.

I have not really noticed "Money Mules". If anything I think most of the Crat mules are used for brokering. I am really curious....how many people have Crat mules that they use strictly for money storage because of the interest? Come on don't be shy no names required just an "I do! I do!?"_________________S.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The real issue isnt whether or not there is a morally acceptable amount of sex or violence, the real issue is; how can we put more sex in our violence?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xavain Gramorham says, "Yet you wanted to marry Mellie."
You hear the voice of Yaru Dex say, "For her MONEY geez! Not her VA****!."

even without money mules, it's bad to give a profession free money in an already bloated economy.

A broker shouldn't get almost $5,000,000 a year just for being logged in._________________A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.

Bureaucrat alts used to generate extra money have been around from the start, pretty much. And I can't blame the players who do it, it is legal, after all, and it is free money.

But, alts aren't the issue. The problem is that incoming and outgoing money need to be at least relatively in check. If you have large quantities of money coming in, and it's being expended in small amounts by comparison, inflation ensues and things get out of hand (as they have to some degree in HR.)

I don't want to give the impression that new Bureaucrat stuff is around the corner necessarily, but some good alternatives would incorporate an element of either effort or risk. Something that requires either player time to manage or has the chance of losing money would offset the injection of new money into the system._________________"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato

So, basically, all 'Crats can do at the moment are legal cases and broker for people. While you do have plans for them it's nothing in the foreseeable future but you're going to take away one of the few things they do have.

*sighs* My apologies, that sounds like an attack and I don't mean it to. I guess it's a kneejerk reaction from other realms that do the same thing and never come through with the big plans. My point being, no matter the profession, I think it'd be better if you wait until you have something positive to offset the kick to the gonads before you give said kick.

Part of it is just not seeing the issues people say are there. Course I'm not 100+ with 5 of everything. I'm still saving up to work on my house but I promised a friend I'd help him save up to move to a bigger one first. I do think it's rather silly that a tire swing on a frayed rope costs a mil but I figured that was part of the economy thing. Meh, what do I know. Shutting up now.

i wouldn't judge HR based on how Simu does things_________________A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.

So, basically, all 'Crats can do at the moment are legal cases and broker for people. While you do have plans for them it's nothing in the foreseeable future but you're going to take away one of the few things they do have.

*sighs* My apologies, that sounds like an attack and I don't mean it to. I guess it's a kneejerk reaction from other realms that do the same thing and never come through with the big plans. My point being, no matter the profession, I think it'd be better if you wait until you have something positive to offset the kick to the gonads before you give said kick.

Part of it is just not seeing the issues people say are there. Course I'm not 100+ with 5 of everything. I'm still saving up to work on my house but I promised a friend I'd help him save up to move to a bigger one first. I do think it's rather silly that a tire swing on a frayed rope costs a mil but I figured that was part of the economy thing. Meh, what do I know. Shutting up now.

First, let me say that I do understand the frustration when a change is perceived as being negative for you. Although, I am not entirely sure how this impacts you personally since you don't play a Bureaucrat, but I'm sure you posted for a reason.

That said, sometimes it's both ideal and necessary to remove elements of the game, or change them, for sake of the game's balance as a whole. In this specific case, I will illustrate.

Let's say you have someone who doesn't really play HR, or has a Bureaucrat they don't play. But, they do keep some money in the bank and they do log in daily. Maybe they don't even log in manually, maybe they just have a login script run once a day. They get $10,000 a day for that. I know we can all handle math fine, but humor me anyway. That's ~$400,000 a month, or $4,854,500 a year. It required no actual effort or resources of note, just holding a minimal amount of money in the bank.

Now, I know some people will raise the specter of realism here. After all, you do collect interest in various cases in real life. However, Haelrahv is not a reality simulator and realism is not our primary goal. Additionally, in the real world, the reason you receive interest is because someone else can turn that banked money into even more money than they are paying you. In other words, interest doesn't just come out of thin air for seemingly no reason.

If the economy were more balanced, things could be more affordable with appropriate effort. Instead, we have a system where those who know how to play the system best get the good things, and the rest struggle comparatively. I don't pretend we'll come up with a perfect economy, only that our goal is to improve the economy as much as we're able. This will mean some people will be happy, some not. The haves, in theory, will end up in closer company to the have-nots. That generally happens by a mixture of one side receiving things and the other losing things.

By the way, basic houses are much cheaper than a million credits. That was one of the goals of homes, to make basic homes affordable. Not affordable for a new guy fresh to the game, but definitely affordable well before you're cranking out millions.

Finally, I'd like to say that there's no need to take the stance you did in your post. I don't like feeling attacked, and certainly don't like feeling compared to a company that constantly shits on its customers, but you have a right to voice your thoughts here, and you shouldn't feel like you can't speak your mind without fear of reprisal. I almost never pull posts, and if your post is constructive, there's a good chance it will get a well-thought reply like this one. There's no need to belittle your opinion, you're entitled to have one.

I hope this helps explain things a bit more from the GM side of the table._________________"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato

-- Trevor Rage / Rich Mondy

Last edited by HR-Trevor on Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

Let's say you have someone who doesn't really play HR, or has a Bureaucrat they don't play. But, they do keep some money in the bank and they do log in daily. Maybe they don't even log in manually, maybe they just have a login script run once a day. They get $10,000 a day for that. I know we can all handle math fine, but humor me anyway. That's ~$300,000 a month, or $3,650,000 a year. It required no actual effort or resources of note, just holding a minimal amount of money in the bank.

only because i like being a big math monkey at times, i thought the interest pulsed each HR day, which is 18 hours, not RL day._________________A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.

You're correct, I'd forgotten that's one of the few HR day schedule systems. So more like ~400K a month, and ~$4.85M a year._________________"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato

First, let me say that I do understand the frustration when a change is perceived as being negative for you. Although, I am not entirely sure how this impacts you personally since you don't play a Bureaucrat, but I'm sure you posted for a reason.

That said, sometimes it's both ideal and necessary to remove elements of the game, or change them, for sake of the game's balance as a whole. In this specific case, I will illustrate.

Let's say you have someone who doesn't really play HR, or has a Bureaucrat they don't play. But, they do keep some money in the bank and they do log in daily. Maybe they don't even log in manually, maybe they just have a login script run once a day. They get $10,000 a day for that. I know we can all handle math fine, but humor me anyway. That's ~$400,000 a month, or $4,854,500 a year. It required no actual effort or resources of note, just holding a minimal amount of money in the bank.

Now, I know some people will raise the specter of realism here. After all, you do collect interest in various cases in real life. However, Haelrahv is not a reality simulator and realism is not our primary goal. Additionally, in the real world, the reason you receive interest is because someone else can turn that banked money into even more money than they are paying you. In other words, interest doesn't just come out of thin air for seemingly no reason.

If the economy were more balanced, things could be more affordable with appropriate effort. Instead, we have a system where those who know how to play the system best get the good things, and the rest struggle comparatively. I don't pretend we'll come up with a perfect economy, only that our goal is to improve the economy as much as we're able. This will mean some people will be happy, some not. The haves, in theory, will end up in closer company to the have-nots. That generally happens by a mixture of one side receiving things and the other losing things.

By the way, basic houses are much cheaper than a million credits. That was one of the goals of homes, to make basic homes affordable. Not affordable for a new guy fresh to the game, but definitely affordable well before you're cranking out millions.

Finally, I'd like to say that there's no need to take the stance you did in your post. I don't like feeling attacked, and certainly don't like feeling compared to a company that constantly shits on its customers, but you have a right to voice your thoughts here, and you shouldn't feel like you can't speak your mind without fear of reprisal. I almost never pull posts, and if your post is constructive, there's a good chance it will get a well-thought reply like this one. There's no need to belittle your opinion, you're entitled to have one.

I hope this helps explain things a bit more from the GM side of the table.

I'm not a 'Crat and as such this particular change doesn't affect me but the mind set behind it can affect my profession in the future.

I said in my original post that I do apologize for the way the "tone" of the post sounds as I do NOT mean it to be an attack and went on to explain kind of where I am coming from with it, not saying you are exactly like this other company that shits on people all day long.

There will pretty much always be a need for change, it's the only constant in life, and that's fine. My point wasn't that there was change so much as it being a negative change implemented with no positive counter balance in sight. I was under the impression that the interest was one of the counter balances to basically being crap in combat. *ponders* Well, assuming the character has trained for 'Crat type stuff (I.E. pumping up charisma) rather than focusing on combat. Anyway, point being that people knew they'd be crap in combat but they had this to offset it. Now, they're just crap in combat. (for the record, yes I realize there's more to 'Crat's than just bank interest. More balances etc. Just exaggerating the situation to make an obvious example.)

My comment about the tire swing wasn't that all houses are way over priced or whatever, just that I figured that was part of the steps taken to counter the economy problem. Really expensive though not NEEDED furniture. Cool toys kinda thing.

In the end, it boils down to this: taking out the interest is fine, I see your point and understand. However; removing one of the few things an entire profession has without putting in some other benefit can be... well depressing is too strong a word but you get the idea.

Much like if you decided to take out a tracker's survival abilities and said we'll get something in cool for you as soon as we can but for now... SOL. (again, exaggerating for example. I'm not actually thinking you are or would do this.) Now, on the other side of this for all I know you already have something planned out and are working on it. Just didn't sound that way in your post. Maybe I read it wrong, for which I'm sorry if I did.

Hope this long, somewhat rambling post cleared things up a bit and didn't come across as an attack.

but earning interest wasn't the sole great thing about 'crats. it was a boon on the side.

along with that, combat is hardly impossible for the non combat classes (i'm thinking crats, artisans, and medics in particular). yes, they won't be as good as the combat oriented professions, but they can do a perfectly good job in combat if their first goal isn't to just pump charisma into the sky before doing other things.

i'll be the first to say that non-combat things need to be boosted and become more robust, but saying GMs shouldn't downtweak/remove things that can damage the game's balance/economy/etc in severe ways unless they have ways to make up for it is just unfair._________________A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.