I figured I would let this thread run its course a bit before chiming in.

I have mixed feelings about this new licensing. I understand how the business model makes good sense for Greg and overall, I think it's fair.

I suspect the reason many are in opposition to this is because a large part of the customer base are hobbyists. Those of us that are using the engine but not working on a focused (or funded) project that is destined to go on the market find it hard to justify paying continuous fees to use the software. Even if the price is fair, even if we can afford to shell out a little each month (or year), we still have to justify that to ourselves. The alternative is to continue to use 2.0 in its current state. There is nothing wrong with that alternative for the customer. However, if most people end up doing this, then Greg will lose revenue from those customers.

Personally, I will likely pay for a year to help support Greg. I can't say for sure I will maintain a yearly subscription year after year though.

One of the things I don't like about this is the fact that the subscription is per seat. I purchased a second license just to have the convenience of being able to develop on two different machines without having to switch the license constantly. I will not maintain a subscription for two seats.

Not everybody is going to be happy with this change in licensing. Those that are accepting are not necessarily going to be happy with all aspects of it. This is great for a team with a solid project. The ability to buy a source subscription is quite nice. But those of us that are working alone and playing around with ideas can't really make that kind of investment.

I hope this works out well for Greg. At this point in time, I will stay positive, continue to support the product and see where things go throughout the next year.

Sad to say I'm really disappointed in all the negative feedback and some of the comments.

I don't think people here are telling you what they really think because of your gag clause and don't want to loose (what's left of) their license.

Obviously, your not humbled by the fact that people care enough to make an effort to giving you constructive feedback.... anyway I'll leave it at that

I'm still here, so I'm still supporting you.
My only feedback would be, stretch it out the binary only 2 years (bi-yearly) and up the price to $200. and drop the monthly to $10
That'll up your 'value' ahead of the others

EDIT: Where can I set/download my V2 it's not in the store under purchased?
EDIT2: wow, found it, too many emails..

I quite understand your point of view Greg, and if I could, I'd be glad to support you further, but so far I've invested over 500$ in this from my student budget and I just can't afford any more at the moment.

I am NOT expecting you to keep developing stuff for free for us forever (how Arteria is doing ), but I WOULD expect to get all the features that were on the roadmap at the moment I bought the engine. Because that roadmap WAS part of my decision of buying the engine. Removing projects from server, billboard LOD, ocean in world editor and other things that I'm pretty sure were there when I purchased EE 2.0.

I imagine there's no way to convince you to do this for us, but as an advice, you SHOULD, in the future, clearly state when the features on the roadmap will be released and for what version, so people can plan accordingly.

I'll just leave this here...
The idea is - if you do it just for yourself and do not want to spend your money - stay at EE 2.0 current state, it's more than enough. But if you want to make a project that's bigger than "small hobby on weekends" and you need further engine development - you should be ready to pay money for the tools you use. It's obvious in the world of grown-ups.

And the fact is that 150$ year subscription is not that expensive how you describe it in this topic. It's 13$ a month! 0.5$ a day! I believe even a student can afford it.

(04-07-2014 08:07 AM)AndrewBGS Wrote: I am NOT expecting you to keep developing stuff for free for us forever (how Arteria is doing ), but I WOULD expect to get all the features that were on the roadmap at the moment I bought the engine. Because that roadmap WAS part of my decision of buying the engine. Removing projects from server, billboard LOD, ocean in world editor and other things that I'm pretty sure were there when I purchased EE 2.0.

It seems like you don't like to read license agreements

Code:

What you don't get:
This license does not include support or warranty of any kind.

Sad to say I'm really disappointed in all the negative feedback and some of the comments.

From what I see, majority of you expects that I keep releasing updates to the engine and their existing licenses for free, even though I've made it clear in the past that there will be new versions released annually.

I work 7 days a week, 8-12 hours a day, with barely any income, and what I get in return is just complaints about users having to pay, it is not something I can appreciate.

I'm offering you an excellent engine, with competetive pricing, yet it's still not good enough for you, you want it to be kept updated for free.

I'm sorry, these expectations are unrealistic, it cannot be free, I have my own living expenses, and I'm talking only about the basic ones as rent and food.

If you want an engine that you don't need to spend any money on, I recommend that you look into other options, such as free open source alternatives.

Thank you for choosing Esenthel, it is my deep commitment to make an amazing game engine, but it cannot be done for free.

Greg, why are you disappointed by feedback?
Feedback means that people care and nobody here is saying anything like "This is crap, I will change to <OtherEngineName>." We are giving you valuable feedback, that you should read objectively without getting offended by it. We are not here to always worship you. We are already supporting you. We have supported you for years.

I for one do not expect free updates or anything for free at all. But what I expect is to be treated respectfully and valued if I spend in expense of a 4-digit USD amount on a technology.
You would make so much more money, if you made real special offers to your existing customer base. Changes like this are so obvious to everyone that they feel milked.

Again, take our constructive feedback to improve both Esenthel Engine and its success.

(04-06-2014 09:29 AM)Pixel Perfect Wrote: Whilst I'm happy with the move to a subscription based system unless I was looking for the source code option I'm not really seeing anything in this new release that makes me sit up and say ... "Wow! I really want this new version".

Normally a new engine release would contain at least one major addition (like Hardware Instancing or Editor support for Breakable Objects for example) to pull people in. Whilst the list of additions are welcome they appear to be mainly minor improvements/updates more akin to between release updates rather than big new functionality which kind of leaves me feeling a bit disappointed tbh!

Exactly my opinion. Thx Pixel
On the other hand i can not understand most people here.. its the same like in the app stores, everybody cries if a product costs money.. what are 0,79$ in relation to the development time?
what are 199$ if you have the all-in-one solution to develop 3-4 small games within a year which will surely give you >600$ each year..
esenthel is royality free so you get 100% of the money..
other engine always have royalities...

of course its not very worthy to hold a license instead of develop some games, but then its not gregs fault..
as a developer i can fully understand this licensing step..

and to be honest there were no cheaper engines than esenthel which are comparable to other aaa engines..
best wishes to this engine and this community!

(04-07-2014 08:07 AM)AndrewBGS Wrote: I quite understand your point of view Greg, and if I could, I'd be glad to support you further, but so far I've invested over 500$ in this from my student budget and I just can't afford any more at the moment.

Thank you Andrew, I completely understand and expect that not all can make the upgrade process. You're free to keep using 2.0 as long as you wish.

Quote:I am NOT expecting you to keep developing stuff for free for us forever (how Arteria is doing ), but I WOULD expect to get all the features that were on the roadmap at the moment I bought the engine. Because that roadmap WAS part of my decision of buying the engine. Removing projects from server, billboard LOD, ocean in world editor and other things that I'm pretty sure were there when I purchased EE 2.0.

I'm sorry but I've never ever promised anyone anything related to the entire roadmap being implemented into a certain version of the engine (please read your 2.0 license for the details). Please be realistic, the entire roadmap is so vast, it is easily spanned for several years of development. And I did post in the past that each new version of the engine should last around 1 year, after which new one will be released (but now I'm moving into subscription system). The roadmap is simply an indication of what direction I am going with the engine, throughout the entire existence of the engine and myself as its creator.

Yes, I understand, that was my misunderstanding apparently. I guess I'll just have to make do with what I have so far; but let me ask you this, which is currently what worries me: do I have any guarantee that you'll keep at least supporting EE 2.0 if not updating it?

I would hate to notice one day my engine says it's demo and I can't do anything with it anymore. (my dream would be to have licence in off-line mode so I can work in other places too, but that's another topic)

(04-07-2014 08:07 AM)AndrewBGS Wrote: I quite understand your point of view Greg, and if I could, I'd be glad to support you further, but so far I've invested over 500$ in this from my student budget and I just can't afford any more at the moment.

Thank you Andrew, I completely understand and expect that not all can make the upgrade process. You're free to keep using 2.0 as long as you wish.

Quote:I am NOT expecting you to keep developing stuff for free for us forever (how Arteria is doing ), but I WOULD expect to get all the features that were on the roadmap at the moment I bought the engine. Because that roadmap WAS part of my decision of buying the engine. Removing projects from server, billboard LOD, ocean in world editor and other things that I'm pretty sure were there when I purchased EE 2.0.

I'm sorry but I've never ever promised anyone anything related to the entire roadmap being implemented into a certain version of the engine (please read your 2.0 license for the details). Please be realistic, the entire roadmap is so vast, it is easily spanned for several years of development. And I did post in the past that each new version of the engine should last around 1 year, after which new one will be released (but now I'm moving into subscription system). The roadmap is simply an indication of what direction I am going with the engine, throughout the entire existence of the engine and myself as its creator.

I accept that

But I'm still aware that there are main features that every game engine must have

take a look at missing undo support .
Missing shader editor
So I hope that the most basic features to be implemented into the Engine that's how we all feel that there are really a change we ask for a subscription

(04-07-2014 08:56 PM)AndrewBGS Wrote: I would hate to notice one day my engine says it's demo and I can't do anything with it anymore. (my dream would be to have licence in off-line mode so I can work in other places too, but that's another topic)

As long as I can afford to have esenthel.com website hosted, then yes you can use your 2.0 license.

To have editor without license check you could get source license and compile the editor for your own purpose without license check. For this however you'd need to maintain full source subscription.

(04-07-2014 08:56 PM)AndrewBGS Wrote: I would hate to notice one day my engine says it's demo and I can't do anything with it anymore. (my dream would be to have licence in off-line mode so I can work in other places too, but that's another topic)

As long as I can afford to have esenthel.com website hosted, then yes you can use your 2.0 license.

To have editor without license check you could get source license and compile the editor for your own purpose without license check. For this however you'd need to maintain full source subscription.