Addressing the Hosking anti-cannabis reform activism

"Nowhere that cannabis has been legalised – not Uruguay, Canada or any of the US states – has the population ended up 'all stoned' as Hosking thinks New Zealanders would be." @publicaddresshttps://t.co/nirZF2Ag5X

In a Mike’s Minute commentary this week, Mike Hosking told his listeners and readers that the government’s Wellbeing Budget “subscribed $1.9 billion to mental health, and yet the next move is to decriminalise a substance directly linked to psychosis.

“How mad is that?” he demanded. “How many health professionals do you need to hear from to make up your mind about the madness?”

The answer to these questions can best be found in He Ara Oranga: the Report of the Government Inquiry into Mental Health and Addiction, which, as the NZ Herald observedon its release in December, is the most comprehensive report of its kind in a generation.

The expert panel that delivered the report did not rail against decriminalisation of drugs. It did the opposite. Its list of recommendations called for the replacement of criminal sanctions for use and possession of drugs with civil and health responses.

There has been a lot of disinformation and ignorance in this debate.

And some more informed and reasoned discussion.

What has been proposed in the Cabinet paper foreshadowing the referendum question is closer to Canada than Colorado and more conservative than either. The Ministry of Justice team working on the details is seeking to learn from what has worked best in other jurisdictions, not only in banning advertising and imposing age restrictions and product safety rules, but in the best ways to take the market away from organised crime.

It may also regulate potency, which is another key area for reducing harm. Under prohibition, since the 1970s, THC levels in cannabis have risen sharply – and the ratio of THC to CBD, the cannabinoid with anti-psychotic properties, has fallen far out of balance. A good deal of the harm attributed to cannabis is related to that trend. It’s a trend the black market will never reverse – supply will be dominated by what medicinal cannabis campaigner Rose Renton calls “rocket fuel” weed. It is, however, a trend that regulation – and canny tax treatment of higher-CBD strains – could change.

Drug policy is already changing in New Zealand. In response to the recommendations of the Mental Health and Addictions Inquiry, a new amendment to the Misuse of Drugs Act will direct police discretion towards health-based, rather than criminal, responses. Next year, New Zealanders will get to choose whether to do more, and seek to exercise some control of the way cannabis is sold.

That decision should be informed by an attention to evidence, rather whatever we fancy “common sense” to be. And it would be better made without commentators purporting to speak for medical professionals but saying the polar opposite of what those professionals actually believe.

Corky

Bill

Yeah Corky we have a Cannabis crisis, it clearly stands way out ahead of the pack from the softer Drugs like synthetics, Alcohol and Meth. “South Auckland..or in provincial Maori communities are gutted” by being low socio-economic first and foremost, the perfect breeding ground for drug crime for economic gain.

Corky

I know straight away you aren’t Maori. Low socio-economic is a tired old excuse from white ”know-alls.” Next time you go past the local DHB mental health unit, ask a nurse what is the problem with all those ”zoned-out” Maoris smoking and looking vacantly into space. The reply 8 times out of 10…psychosis brought on by cannabis/syn abuse.

I have yet to see anything like that at any mental health unit. I don’t suppose that many people have (any people) as the patients are not likely to be behaving like this in public. The chances of there being a nurse handy who could be asked this question and who would be prepared to risk their job by breaking the rules around confidentiality are about zero. Medical staff don’t discuss patients and would never tell some nosey stranger what the matter was with any of them.

Bill

Paula Bennett seems to think Chloe Swarbrick is not as qualified as herself on the subject and that seems to have spilt over onto the usual media suspects. This is all Hosking needs and out comes the dope head druggy rhetoric.

Kitty Catkin

There are laws against the disclosure of patients’ details and while it can be done in a small number of cases, a nosey parker walking in and asking what is wrong with a patient is not among the exceptions. In almost all of the exceptions, the patient has to give permission.

Bill

“Mike just had an interview with a police officer in Colorado regarding the effects of decriminalization there, well worth listening to”.
Very interesting alloytoo, Ray Padilla wasn’t speaking as a Police officer but as the president of Colorado Drug Investigators Association, an anti Cannabis special interest lobby group. You know sort of the opposite of LEAP.

“The Mission of the Colorado Drug Investigators Association (CDIA) is to unite peace officers and other professionals who share a common interest in drug enforcement, in a collaborative effort to reduce the supply and demand of illicit drugs and illegally diverted legal drugs by providing training , open information exchange and speaking with one voice in support of effective legislation.”

One way of propagating fake news is to set up an organisation with an official sounding name like “Colorado Drug Investigators Association”. Use this organisation to publish propaganda using pseudoscientific or academic-sounding language. Then make this propaganda available to journalist hacks like Mike Hosking, who suffer from such a chronic case of confirmation bias they completely fail to notice the inauthenticity of the material they “research”.

NOEL

Nah that can’t be right Corky. Both had been rabbiting on how it was a health issue.
When decriminalisation was rejected because the supp!y would be illicit they defau!ted to the choice issue and magically would be able to produce a legitimate supply.

Bill

Griff.

Ah yes the poisoning of children and pets and emergency department admissions sound so Terrifying.
You do know that the cure for cannabis overdose is a few hours sleep nothing more?
Nursy gives you a pat on the head and a sleeping pill all is fixed.
You do know there are no recorded long term effects from cannabis overdoses at all?
Number of deaths by cannabis overdose in the entire history of the world is Nill, zero, nada ,not even a fuckin physical possibility .

It is a load of alarmist dribbling aimed at the target audience being those easy persuaded by such nonsense .

Corky

Griff.

Nothing .
There are no long term effects from an “overdose” whatever that is supposed to mean. If you presented at a hospital for an overdose the treatment is simply sleep the intoxicating effects off.
The active ingredients in Cannabis at any physically possible dosage besides medical lab prepared 100% pure forms is not a poison.
The emergency department admissions and kids being “poisoned” is fear mongering .

“At present it is estimated that marijuana’s LD-50 is around1:20,000 or 1:40,000. In layman terms this means that in order to induce death a marijuana smoker would have to consume 20,000 to 40,000 times as much marijuana as is contained in one marijuana cigarette. NIDA-supplied marijuana cigarettes weigh approximately .9 grams. A smoker would theoretically have to consume nearly 1,500 pounds of marijuana within about fifteen minutes to induce a lethal response.

cannabis-science.com/content/DEA%20Ruling%20Judge%20Young.pdf

We are dealing with someone who believes in cloud busters here so reality is going to pass you by.

BUT:
Chloe is not just talking out of self interest.. she is a MP, representing for the kiwis who do not think ZERO-tolerance works & it is time to look at alternatives.

All I hear from ‘Mikey’ & others is FEAR-mongering & B-S. We are talking about Cannabis Class C Drug.. NOT Meth or Heroin (Class A)
btw: Alcohol maybe legal, but in regard to level of harm, has been compared to Class B, More Harmful than Cannabis !

Lets just be a little more rational shall we.. Cannabis does NOT cause Mass Insanity & smoking 1-2 joints does not lead everyone through the ‘gateway’ to HARD DRUGS, as is still often alleged, by many of the ‘Naysayers’

To be clear, the proposed law reform is R20, not anything goes.. ‘hey kids help yourselves to the ‘gummybears’ & get stoned’ This is just plain NONSENSE

Even reading some of the comments above, all I will say is ‘Have you ever tried it ?
If YES then why are you spewing such CRAP ?!!

Listening to the interview, one thing is clear (as Chloe said) this is about asking the ADULTS of Aotearoa/NZ if they think ‘status quo; is still OK or should we move beyond it, as other countries already have (the sky has not fallen).
Prohibition HAS failed & we cannot arrest our way out of ‘DRUGS’.. as they tried & failed with Alcohol in 1920s USA. Its just Nonsensical DRIVEL

It is not about “We will win RAH RAH RAH !!” as ‘Mikey’ was childishly, trying to make it; that is typical narrow Tory thinking (IMHO). Select the data that fits your narrative & misrepresent everything else; ad nauseum

‘Wakey Wakey its 2019.. NOT 1975″ time to get into the 21st century folks 😀

Zedd

Gerrit

Been an interesting exercise to witness the marketing of the pro lobby to change to mind of voters to a “yes”. With only the Greens in favour, Labour at best luke warm and NZ First stone (d) cold sober. The referendum has but one outcome. A resounding “No”

First problem for the Greens has been a total lack to counter objections raised. Most centered around workplace safety, drugged driving and the continual illegal market for stronger variants..

Instead of countering the objections they have , like Zedd on numerous occasions, pooped the objection as not worth discussing. Trust us, we know what we are doing, is not going to swing the voter.

First advice to sales and marketing people is to listen to objections, ignore them the first time (to ascertain if they are genuine) but when they are raised again, address them fully.

Labour have been very smart (or NZFirst have told them to follow this strategy) to not put the legislation up for discussion. Just some vague bullet points of what MAY be in the legislation. Letting the Greens carry the can for promoting an idea that at this stage is a transparent as todays Auckland Fog.

The Greens are on their own to fight for a legislative change that nobody knows how it will be drafted.

So naturally, at this point in time, the voters will go for the status quo.

Coming from a negative perspective, the legislation when drafted in 2020 sometime will be on the back foot from the start.

Greens are going to have to do much better at marketing the “Yes”: answer than to sorry marketing mess it has been to date. To do that they need to meet the objections with straight answers on how a “Yes” vote will positively effect the voters.

Mikey just cant help himself.. a ‘dog with a bone’ talking to a cop who says ‘The Sky has Fallen & HELL is a place called Colorado’

btw; this is just more FEAR-mongering. Im hearing, many Cops are totally opposed to law reform, because it discredits what they were ‘championing’ for about 50 years !

Again: Cannabis is NOT harmless, but Prohibition/ZERO-tolerance is not the answer. People need to stop looking at it, just through this lense. Take the broader view, there are alternatives.
IF it works why did they repeal Alcohol prohibition in 1933 (USA) ??

I once met a member of LEAP (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition) & whilst he would not condemn the actions of Cops (for just doing their jobs) it did sound like LEAP & many other Cops, judges, lawyers etc. do know that Drug prohibition is a failure.

BUT: it is something that likely keeps many of them ‘in gainful employment’ & they likely will promote ‘job security’ even over alternative options ??!

Kitty Catkin

Corky

Zedd is worried about downticks..just like Kitty. You have to wonder about the small minded mentality that fixates on such trifles.

I personally would be more worried about the egg on their faces a few on this thread will have should herb be legalised. I bet they will dissapear fast…they never really cared about people and drug use… only about trolling and scoring points.

Zedd

btw: I was once accused of ‘too much downticking & not enough engaging’ etc.

so… now I see several of my most angry adversaries have disappeared, but the same number of regular downticks seem to constantly appear against nearly every post I make. I actually doubt they even read my comments.. ho hum

…& the days go by…

btw; As I said; I have NO preconceived notions about the ref. outcome.. all good PG !

Kitty Catkin

Zedd; Oh dear, how sad, never mind 😀 😀 😀 A comment is hardly an indication of a fixation; I also think that a few PDTs don’t bother to read the posts, just see the name and downtick, the poor things.

I wonder about the mentality of someone who regards it as a personal achievement (‘another notch on their belt’) when the Mongrel Mob buy a house and the neighbours don’t like it. Or someone who calls Maoris mahdees and Muslims moozees (or whatever the racist term used was; it’s something like that)

duperez

I guess if Hosking interviewed a dispassionate expert who is actually a propagandist with distorted data and information and Hosking later realises he didn’t give a disclosure about that, he’ll correct it tomorrow. 😊

harryk

Hmmm. When I was transitioning from teen to adult, a process my wife reminds me is still incomplete, I worked in he Gulf of Carpentaria on prawnboats with heaps of Kiwi crew. Ganja was everywhere. Tobacco, ganja, hash then scag was the ladder then, but none were mutually exclusive. Our medical cabinets carried ephedrine and morphine shots and when they were really needed were mostly unavailable, having been raided by the recreational users. Not blaming Kiwi deckies, just putting it out there for discussion. There may even be a few old mates reading this.

Look. We all know legalising ganja isn’t going to effect us good solid middle classish family types, well educated good careers etc because we don’t do drugs. It’s going to effect the most vulnerable, poor, unhealthy, undereducated and addictive personalities. And sadly their kids, who just copy their irresponsible parents. Legalising cannabis sends all the wrong signals to them, and to their kids. It’s irresponsible for us to do so. We should be lifting them up to the best not deserting them to the worst. But maybe in the post-growth budget era Ardern seems to desire there won’t be any jobs for them anyway and just as well to keep them drugged and unable to protest and demand their rights. I hope I’m wrong.

Bill

“Japanese submarine slammed two torpedoes into our side, Chief. We was comin’ back from the island of Tinian to Leyte – just delivered the bomb, the Hiroshima bomb. Eleven hundred men went into the water. Vessel went down in 12 minutes. Didn’t see the first shark for about half an hour – a tiger – thirteen footer. You know how you know that when you’re in the water, Chief? You tell by lookin’ from the dorsal to the tail.”

Corky

The gangs will tax growers. There is no way they are taking a cut in profits. Youths who previously played sport will now stay home and tend crops….they will want to become rich like those hiphop fullas.

I’m afraid unless you have lived in these communities it’s hard to understand their mentality.
I have lived in those communities so I know the pro herb lobby on this thread are talking crap..they wouldn’t have clue. One old guy talking to his computer does not qualify as experience.

Bill

It’s a bleak outlook in your world CORKY, is your family gang connected?

The thing about gangs, is they are like governments if you are connected in any way then you live by their rules, they tax and punish. The legalisation of Cannabis won’t be a free for all, there will be tax and punishment.

The cool thing is you will be able to call the cops if someone steals your stash.

Corky

I’m sorry, Bill. Your last paragraph shows you have no idea how such communities work. I can only assume you are taking the piss. But just in case your aren’t…anyone in such communities who narked to the cops, would be stomped to death..or permanently maimed. Remember Christopher Crean?

Bill

Yeah Corky, I was taking the piss. you have no idea what my life has been like mate. I have lived in a gang controlled area in my life, I have been home invaded and held at gun point, what a shit life.
I did move down south and life never looked back, in fact I’ve been very successful,
There’s no way anything good would have come from staying in a community entrenched in gang land politics. BEEN THERE DONE THAT
I don’t think you are being very honest when you can’t recognise the economic advantage prohibition has been for gangs.
If there’s not an evolution in thinking regarding the supply and demand, we are relinquishing our power to control and shape the lives of communities.

Sorry Corky all I’m hearing from you is nothing needs to be done, sorry mate that’s just not good enough.

Zedd

It often seems that many ‘naysayers’ are either: Ignorant, apathetic OR perhaps have something to gain (continued ’employment’ on both sides).

I have heard that about 80% kiwis (> 18 ?) have likely tried cannabis, but only about 15% tend to continue on an ongoing basis. BUT I cant understand, why anyone who has tried it (unless they did have a really bad experience) would now condemn it as, something to be banned !
Politics ?

btw: I also live ‘down south’.. why would we want to live anywhere else 😀

Bill

Cheers Zedd, as you pointed out we’re not in new territory when it comes to Cannabis use in NZ.
What is new, is we now have a very real opportunity to delve into what we can do better.
To be honest no one who uses Cannabis will stop using due to the outcome of the referendum because they are already accepting of living with its illegality.

Corky

Listen, Bill. I’m pro legalisation. But if you think legalisation will make things better; or is a better way, then I believe you are mistaken.
The only way legalisation could be successful is if we doubled our police force and had a cop on every corner.

Bill

Corky, I don’t have a beef with you, I just think its not going to be the ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE you seem to believe will happen.

I think its important to differentiate between crime and the disputed laws around Cannabis itself being a crime. If someone steals or harms another, we have laws coming out the wazoo to deal with it.

Cannabis only offences, is what this debate is about. I have no sympathy for the guy who steals a Subaru and gets caught with weed in his pocket.
I can honestly say I believe a regulated market place can work if implemented in a fair and equable way, otherwise it will be a pointless exercise.

There was a few takeaways from the Synthetic drug fiasco,
1/ when users were offered a legal drug available from legal outlets that’s what they did. They bypassed the illegal market, as most people don’t want to break the law.
2/ When heavier restrictions came on, the drugs had to change with the law and got weirder with each change. ( serious heath issues started to show up )
3/ When the total ban came into effect gangs started making it by the bath full, everything goes out the window and a total disregard to human life, what happens next, people start to die. The Government of the time threw the keys to a established market directly to the gangs and boy did they run with it.

Cannabis intoxication just like Alcohol intoxication will never be a defence for committing other crimes. It’s high time we take ownership back, tax, regulate and shine some needed light on an industry that’s already in full swing.

harryk

Oldlaker. I don’t know. Nor does anyone. Gangs will always find new ways to prey on their own communities. I prefer that we address the causes of social dysfunction not the symptoms. Blithely working a lever and expecting the result you want doesn’t always work in the community international affairs and law enforcement. I’m not willing to take a risk with the lives of other peoples’ children. I support prohibition of alcohol in northern Australia, as do many health professionals who won’t say so in public and want the police to take the lead. I’ve seen what happened to close family and friends. Whites who want to drink will just have to suck it up and put the best interests of the whole community first, and that means not continuing the genocide of indigenous people by preventable alcohol and drug related issues. Thinking that crime will stop if cannabis is legalised is simplistic. If NZ legalises ganja there will be consequences for trans Tasman arrangements. Perpetrating in NZ what remains a crime in Oz will inevitably increase the immigration and police workload in Oz and won’t end well for Kiwis who wish to come here in general. Precautionary principle.

Griff.

Cannabis is already mostly decriminalized in AU.
For simple possession you get a civil fine in most states. In those that still have possession a criminal charge have a diversion policy with only a warning for the first couple of offenses.
Au is having the same debate as we are about making it legal and is ahead of us with medical use.
The only consequence with transtasman relations will be tourists coming here to smoke cannabis if we allow cannabis lounges.
And no not every one who smokes is a loser.
The number of else-wise non using persons I know who have done Amsterdam on their OE just for a legal toke is huge.