Those who accept the government's claim that the crash of TWA Flight 800 was caused by a fuel-tank explosion dismiss the evidence that the plane was shot down accidentally by missiles launched in a Navy exercise off the Long Island coast. They say that such an accident could not have been covered up because a lot of Navy personnel would have known about it, and some of them would have talked.

One of them has finally done so. He recently said in an interview that I recorded that he was on the deck of a Navy submarine very close to the crash site and saw TWA 800 shot down.

He was brought to my attention by an acquaintance of his who told me that this retired Navy petty officer had said he was "underneath TWA 800 when he saw a missile hit it and the 747 explode overhead." He had told this acquaintance that he had given a statement to the FBI when they returned to their port, and that the FBI had checked all their torpedo tubes and all their missile silos to make sure they had all the missiles on board that they had when they left port. Asked if there were other military vessels in the area, he had said, "Yes, several."

When Pierre Salinger, at a press conference in March 1997, declared that TWA Flight 800 had been shot down accidentally by a U.S. Navy missile, this former presidential press secretary, U.S. Senator and ABC News correspondent, was mercilessly attacked by his former colleagues. They accused him of peddling unsubstantiated Internet gossip. Salinger said that his information had been confirmed by a source who learned of the Navy's involvement from a friend who had a son in the Navy. The son was said to have personal knowledge that a Navy missile had downed the plane, but his father did not want to be identified, fearing his son would suffer retaliation for disclosing information the Navy was hiding.

There are hundreds of Navy and Coast Guard personnel, as well as some FBI, CIA, FAA, NTSB and former White House employees who know that the real cause of the crash of TWA 800 was papered over with a tissue of lies. Two of them, James Kallstrom and George Stephanopoulos, have made statements that indicate an official cover-up. Stephanopoulos, a Clinton adviser who is now an ABC News correspondent, mentioned on the air a secret meeting in the White House situation room "in the aftermath of the TWA 800 bombing." Kallstrom, who headed the FBI's TWA 800 investigation, told me  and I have this on tape  that three radar targets close to the crash site were Navy vessels on a classified maneuver. We know they were submarines because the radar tracks disappeared when TWA 800 crashed.

Our newly found talker was on one of those submarines. The Navy claims that it was at least 80 miles from the crash site, but he says it was very close, and that is confirmed by the radar tracks. In our taped interview, he was more guarded than he had been with his acquaintance. He said he didn't want to do anything that might "mess up" his retirement.

He said he saw "something come up." "I don't know what in the hell it was," he said, "but that's what it looked ..." Not completing what he started to say, he said, "You know, something went up." He estimated that it went up about a mile from his location, which was only a few miles from the shore. He said there were a couple of other subs nearby. When told that the radar tracks of all three disappeared because they submerged when the plane went down, he said, "Yeah, that's what we did."

He acknowledged that a number of Navy vessels were heading for W-105, a large area of the ocean south of Long Island that is used for naval maneuvers. He said that nothing they did off Long Island was classified, but he was not comfortable in discussing it.

When I called him a few days later, he was scared to death. He feared the Navy would withdraw his pension if I reported what he had said. It was not possible to convince him that the Navy couldn't do that. Not wanting to worsen his anxiety, his name and other details are being withheld as we try to get his and other interview reports that the FBI has withheld.

Reed Irvine is the chairman of Accuracy In Media, a media watchdog group based in Washington, D.C.

Your entire argument is based on the assumption that another conspiracy theory (i.e., Ron Brown was murdered). is true.

Untrue. My argument is based on many FACTS that strongly suggest a murder and a subsequent coverup. I mentioned "some" of those facts in my post to you. Now you can either dispute the facts or accept them, but don't try to just AVOID discussing them.

In addition, military officers would have to dishonor themselves and coverup a mass murder in order to protect Clinton for your conspiracy theory to work.

First of all, military officers are the ones who blew the whistle ... the ones accusing other military officers of tampering with evidence and ignoring facts that suggest Brown was shot. We already know that the military officers who were accused of tampering with the evidence have LIED to the public about the facts in this case. That is PROVEN.

Are you so naive as to think that high level members of the military, like members of the JCS and those in command of certain operations (like the Accident Investigation Board members and management of AFIP), are not political animals ... that they would not do the bidding of superior officers and Clinton? Sorry, but UNLESS you can explain the views of the pathologists and the x-ray/photo evidence (which, according to EVERY forensic pathologist that has made a statement about them, show clear signs of a bullet wound), you are running from the facts. Unless you can explain all the other incriminating material in the case you are ignoring the obvious. Then YOUR motives become questionable.

I don't mind you disagreeing with me as long as you are willing to discuss the actual facts that are known. I could be convinced they aren't true or don't suggest what is alleged. I do mind those who won't discuss those facts but, instead, simply TRUST in an administration (Clinton's) that we all KNOW committed just about every crime you can name ... including ABUSE of the military. I do mind those who TRUST the military so much that they can't even conceive of the possibility that there are dishonorable people in the military. There are ... just like in EVERY other institution known to man.

--there have been made several allegations of high level military or civilian "friends of bill". with some circumstantial and anecdotal evidence. three of the guys shot at waco, who were originally his personal bodyguards-who might know too much. boorda's and colby's 'suicides". Hmm, clinton 'lost" two helo pilots, one crashed after being run off the road, another one was found shot. Another of his bodyguards was found in his car shot in the head, arkansas I believe. aww heck, I'll go look, can't remember them all. remember a story of a large group of officers resigning en masse, too, with zip news coverage:

Here's a site I found at random,. google search

http://www.everwonder.com/david/suspicious.html

The Clinton Body-Count

The following is a partial list of a large number of persons who have recently met their demise in suspicious circumstances who appear to have some connection to the Clintons. I stress partial because new addditions are coming in faster than closets can be found to hide the bodies in!

Mary Mahoney White House Intern died 7/97 An attractive 25 year old woman, Mary was a former White House Intern for Bill Clinton working as the Assistant Manager at a Starbuck's Coffee shop in Georgetown. In the pre-trial publicity surrounding Paula Jones lawsuit, and mere days after Newsweek's Mike Isikoff had dropped hints that a "former White House staffer" was about to go public with her story of sexual harassement at 1600 Pennsylvania, gunmen entered the Starbuck's while the crew was cleaning up after closing. Mary's two associates were taken to a room and shot. Mary herself had five bullets in her. No money was taken. As of this writing, Mike Isikoff's "former White House staffer" has never appeared.

Vincent Foster White House Counsel died: 7/21/93 - Found dead in Ft. Marcy Park in Washington, DC, of a supposed suicide by gunshot. A suicide note was supposedly found a fews days later, torn into several pieces, in his briefcase, after his office had been entered by WhiteHouse staff and materials removed. The gun which he supposedly used to kill himself was reported to be still in his hand, but the person who first found the body reports that there was no gun at that time. Many irregularities surround the death and the investigation of it. - Foster was also from Hope, Ark., like Clinton, and also worked for the Rose Law firm. Foster had intimate knowledge of the Clintons' personal finances. Foster was involved in an investigation of their finances, and reportedly made a phone call to Hillary Clinton, in Little Rock, just hours before his death.

Spec. Gary Rhodes Crew Chief died: 2/23/93 - All were killed when their helicopter crashed in Weisbaden, Germany. No cause was ever determined. - V Corps figured prominently in the US Bosnia-Serbia peacekeeping operations, along with the carrier Roosevelt. These men, and 8 others associated with Clinton's visit to the Roosevelt all died within 4 months of each other.

Steve Willis Clinton bodyguard

Robert Williams Clinton bodyguard

Conway LeBleu Clinton bodyguard

Todd McKeehan Clinton bodyguard died: 2/28/93 - "executed" by gunfire in the Waco, Texas assault on the Branch Davidians. - All four were examined by a "private doctor" and died from nearly identical wounds to the left temple, so-called execution style. According to Linda Thompson, videotapes and other evidence indicates that none died from guns fired by Branch Davidians.

Five Navy aviators Clinton bodyguards/escorts (names not determined) died: 3/26/93 - all died in a crash of an E-2C Hawkeye in Italy. The crash occurred shortly after the plane was "waved off" from a landing attempt on the Carrier Roosevelt, due to a "foul deck". - All five men had been Clinton's escorts during Clinton's visit to the Roosevelt 2 weeks prior. Three other men, who had flown Clinton to the Roosevelt for that visit also died later in a helicopter crash.

Staff Sgt. Brian Haney Clinton bodyguard

Marine Sgt. Tim Sabel Clinton bodyguard

Maj. William Barkley Clinton bodyguard

Capt. Scott Reynolds Clinton bodyguard died: 5/19/93 - All four men died when their helicopter crashed in the woods near Quantico, Va. - Reporters were barred from the site, and the head of the fire department responding to the crash described it by saying, "Security was tight," with "lots of Marines with guns." A videotape made by a firefighter was seized by the Marines. All four men had escorted Clinton on his flight to the carrier Roosevelt shortly before their deaths.

Montgomery Raiser Son of C. Victor Raiser II died: 7/30/92 - Both men died in a private plane crash in Alaska, en route to a fishing expedition. No cause was ever determined. Five others not connected to Clinton died with them. - DeeDee Meyers described Raiser as a "major player" in the Clinton organization. Victor raiser was also chairman of Mobile Telecomm Technologies Corp., whose subsidiary, SkyTel Corp. is an international paging company used by federal police agencies such as the= FBI.

Paul Tully Democratic National Committee Political Director died: 9/24/92 - Found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock Arkansas of "unknown causes." No autopsy allowed. - Described by Clinton as a "dear friend and trusted advisor. Tully authored several key strategies for Clinton and the party.

Ed Willey Real Estate Attorney, Clinton Fund Raisor died: 11/30/93 - Died of gunshot to the head. Body found in deep woods in Virginia. Ruled a suicide, no note was found, nor was any motive identified. - Intimately involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

Jerry Parks Head of Clinton's Guberntorial security team in Little Rock. died: 9/26/93 - Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. - His family reported that shortly before his death, they were being followed by unknown persons, and their home had been broken into. Parks had been compiling a dossier on Clinton's illicit activities. The dossier was stolen.

James Bunch Influential Texan died: ??? - Died from a gunshot suicide, similar to Vince Foster. - Was discovered to have a "little black book" containing the names of many influential persons in Texas and Arkansas who visited certain prostitutes.

John Wilson Former Washington DC Council member died: 5/18/93 - Found dead from an apparent hanging suicide - Suicide appears suspicious due to an unusual number of reports made to the media concerning his "depression". Was reported, but not proven, to have ties to the Whitewater affair.

Bill Shelton Arkansas state trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson died: 6/94 - allegedly committed suicide by shooting himself at the gravesite of his fiancee - Officer Shelton was the fiancee of Kathy Ferguson, who was the ex-wife of Trooper Danny Ferguson. Kathy Ferguson also committed "suicide" 6/94 when she shot herself in her living room. Oddly, next to the body were her packed bags, as if she was expecting to be going somewhere. Danny Ferguson is a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in Paula Corbin Jones's sexual harassment suit. His ex-wife was reported as a corroborating witness for Ms. Jones.

Kathy Furguson Ex-wife of Trooper Danny Furguson died: circa 5/94 - Died of a supposed gunshot suicide in her living room. There was a suicide note found by the body. However, friends were surprise at having noticed nothing wrong previously. And even more curious, found nearby were several packed suitcases, as if she expected she was going somewhere. She was the former wife (since changed her name) of Trooper Danny Ferguson, who is the Arkansas State Trooper alleged to have escorted Paula Corbin Jones to the hotel room for her alleged episode of sexual harrassment by then-Governor Clinton. Ferguson's wife was reported as a possible corroborating witness for Ms. Jones.

Gandy Baugh Attorney representing Mr. Lassater in a case concerning alleged financial misconduct. died: circa 5/94 - Died in an alleged suicide by jumping out of a window of a multi-story building. - Mr. Lassater was a close associate of Gov. Clinton, and was later indicted on drug related charges, among other things.

Dr. Ronald Rogers Dentist from Arkanasas Killed in plane crash as he was on his way to an interview with a "London Sunday Telegraph" reporter to reveal some Clinton dirt.

Stanley Huggins Partner in Memphis law firm investigating Madison Guaranty. His 300 page report has never been released.

Florence Martin Accountant subcontracting to CIA related to the Barry Seal case. Dead of three gunshot wounds to the head.

Jim Wilhite Wilhite was an associate of Mack McClarty's former firm. Wilhite died in a skiing accident on December 21, 1992.

DEAD WOMEN

Suzanne Coleman : Had affair with Clinton when he was attorney general. Died of "suicide" with gunshot wound to the back of her head. No autopsy performed. Was pregnant at time of her death. Some say it was Clintons.

Paula Grober Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf died: 12/9/92 -Died in a one-car accident with no known witnesses. Her body was thrown 33 feet from the car. A very attractive women, Paula traveled extensively with Clinton from 1978 until her death.

DEAD INVESTIGATORS

Paul Wilcher Washington attorney investigating government corruption died: 6/22/93 - Found dead on a toilet in his Washington apartment. No cause of death was ever determined. - At the time of his death, he was investigating connections between the "October surprise" during the 1980 federal election campaign and drug and gun-running out of Mena, Arkansas, as well as the BATF assault on the Waco, Texas Branch Davidians. Was planning on producing a television documentary on his findings. He had delivered a 99-page affidavit to Janet Reno three weeks before his death.

Jon Parnell Walker RTC investigator Mysteriously fell to his death from an apartment balcony. The same apartment which was alleged to have been a secret getaway which Foster may have visited.

DEAD COMMERCE DEPARTMENT DEATHS

Ron Brown Former Chairman, DNC; Commerce Secretary died: 5/3/96 - Ron Brown died along with 39 other people when the T-43 (a converted 737 used by the Air Force) carrying the group on a trip to Bosnia crashed while approaching the Dubrovnik airport. On the verge of being indicted and having stated publicly his willingness to make a deal with prosecutors, Ron Brown's death brought to an end the investigations into the Commerce Department. (NOTE: Also belongs under dead fundraisers)

Barbera Wise Commerce Department Staffer died: 11/29/96 -As the scandals continued to swirl around the Commerce Department, and most of all about John Huang, one of Huang's associates, Barbera Wise, was found dead in her locked office at the Department of Commerce, partially nude and covered with bruises. No cause of death has ever been announced. Oddly enough, following the discovery of her body, Bill Clinton made an unscheduled return to the White House from Camp David, claiming he needed a book of poetry in order to complete his inauguration speech.

Charles Meissner Assistant Secretary of Commerce for International Economic Policy. died: UNK - Following Ron Brown's death, John Huang was placed on a Commerce Department contract that allowed him to retain his security clearence by Charles Meissner. Shortly thereafter, Charles Meissner died in the crash of a small plane.

THE HENRY IVES DEATHS

Kevin Ives & Don Henry Initial cause of death was reported to be the result of falling asleep on a railroad track in Arkansas on August 23, 1987. This ruling was reported by the State medical examiner Fahmy Malak. Later it was determined that Kevin died from a crushed skull prior to being placed on the tracks. Don had been stabbed in the back. Rumors indicate that they might have stumbled upon a Mena drug operation.

Keith Koney Keith had information on the Ives/Henry deaths. Died in a motorcycle accident in July 1988 with unconfirmed reports of a high speed car chase.

Keith McKaskle McKaskle has information on the Ives/Henry deaths. He was stabbed to death in November 1988.

Gregory Collins Greg had information on the Ives/Henry deaths. He died from a gunshot wound to the face in January 1989.

Jeff Rhodes He had information on the deaths of Ives, Henry & McKaskle. His burned body was found in a trash dump in April 1989. He died of a gunshot wound to the head and there was some body mutilation, leading to the probably speculation that he was tortured prior to being killed.

James Milam Milam had information on the Ives & Henry deaths. He was decapitated. The state Medical examiner, Fahmy Malak, initially ruled death due to natural causes.

Richard Winters Winters was a suspect in the deaths of Ives & Henry. He was killed in a "robbery" in July 1989 which was subsequently proven to be a setup.

Jordan Kettleson Kettleson had information on the Ives & Henry deaths. He was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup in June 1990.

Steve Dickson - Counsel to Mr. Heard died: 9/10/93 - Both died in a plane crash outside Dulles airport, after their aircraft, rented after Heard's personal craft developed troubles, crashed while attempting an emergency landing after reporting a fire on board. - Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory council, also personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather, and brother.

Jim Wilhite Vice Chairman, Arkla, Inc. died: 12/21/92 - Died in a one-person skiing accident. - Wilhite had extensive ties with Clinton and Mack McLarty, with whom he visited by telephone just hours before his death.

Wounded or attempted murder:

Gary Johnson : Not dead, but beaten near death and left for dead. Had videotapes of Clinton breaking into Gennifer Flowers' apartment. His tapes were taken.

Dennis Patrick : Court clerk. Had millions of dollars laundered through his account at Lasater & Co without his knowledge. Four attempts on his life.

Larry Nichols : Former official at ADFA and author of "The Clinton Chronicles." The man who broke many of the Clinton scandal stories. Several attempts on his life.

Sadly, the list goes on......

There's more out there, these are enough to make a point. and how about them "missing' FBI files? WHOOPS! found em laying around the ole office here in the whitehouse, no idea they were here......Geez tons of stuff, free republic must have gigs of material on this subject back in the filez...

blackmail, bribery, threats and worse--all used to get people to do what you want them to do, tried and true tactics....

Except for the fact that one has to believe that there was not a single military officer, NCO, or enlisted soldier with the courage to come forward and contradict the official story.

WRONG. Several high ranking military officers ... MAJORS, COLONELS and CAPTAINS ... have ALREADY come forward to contradict the official story. Some have even made SWORN STATEMENTS alleging that others in the military tampered with evidence to hide what appears to be a MURDER. I suggest you go to the www.newsmax.com site and read the articles by Christopher Ruddy before commenting further because you clearly don't know the facts in the case.

However, most of the men and women in these two institutions are honorable and would have no reason to protect Clinton.

Most are honorable but MOST do not know any more about the facts in the case than you apparently do. They are no better informed than most civilians since they get their news from the same biased media sources and same BOGUS crash investigation report and Air Force press releases.

Second, they DO have reason to keep quiet. All they have to do is look at what the military leadership under Clinton did to the majors, colonels and other whistleblowers who did come forward. THEY DESTROYED THEIR CAREERS AND EVEN THREATENED THEM WITH JAIL. And if you don't believe this, then go read the interviews with the Captain Janowski, the military photographer who took the pictures of the x-rays at the examination that have caused so much consternation.

Fine ... but I began this conversation with you by pointing out that large scale coverups CAN occur with military, Whitehouse and NTSB involvement. You haven't shown ANYTHING to suggest that didn't happen in the Brown case ... which weakens your argument that it couldn't happen period.

By the way, I respect www.newsmax.com just as much as I respect WorldNetDaily.com. Absolutely zero -- the National Enquirer of conservatism.

Sure ... make an unfounded smear as your argument like democRATS usually do. If you can point out ANYTHING untrue in the articles posted on Newsmax.com regarding Ron Brown's death then DO SO ... otherwise you are just AVOIDING the facts ... another characteristic of democRATS.

While you are at it why you tell us what news sources you rely on to find the facts?

And all the men on the ship that allegedly fired the missile that downed TWA Flight 800. What about their honor that you appear so willing to deny?

I'm not saying anything specific about TWA800 although there are a lot of aspects of the official version of events that do not jibe with the facts. I am simply pointing out that your argument that it couldn't be a coverup because a bunch of military officers, government officials and NTSB people would have to be involved is not necessarily valid. The FACTS in the Brown case prove that.

Doesn't sound like you respect the military if you think they would condone mass murder to save their careers.

Don't try that with me. I respect the military. YOU are the one IGNORING the many MILITARY OFFICERS who came forward in the Brown case to point out that something was fishy. YOU are the one DISHONORING those individuals. YOU are the one who wishes to PRETEND that there can't be bad apples in high positions who WOULD condone mass murder if ORDERED to by the President of the United States. YOU are the one IGNORING the lessons of history. YOU are the one trying to DEFEND the likes of Bill Clinton.

Well explain this. Why was this the first crash in Air Force HISTORY (except for one friendly fire shoot down in Iraq where the cause was immediately obvious) to SKIP the Safety Board part of the normal Air Force investigation. Instead they just held an Accident Investigation Board. You do realize, don't you, that the Safety Board is the part of the crash investigation process SPECIFICALLY charged with "FINDING THE CAUSE" of the crash. The Accident Investigation Report (that you refer to) is meant to provide a document for use in any legal actions that follow.

So tell me why your report doesn't even mention the FACT that pathologists at the examination of Brown's body said the wound looked like a bullet wound and called for an autopsy (which, by the way, was refused on orders from the Whitehouse and JCS)? Hummm? Don't you think the families of the victims and their lawyers would have wanted to know that?

Why doesn't that report even MENTION the existance of x-rays that suggest a lead snowstorm (according EVERY pathologist that has made a statement about them). A lead snowstorm is indicative of a bullet wound. You don't suppose the families and their lawyers would have wanted to know that?

And I could go on and on listing FACTS that your BOGUS report doesn't even mention which lawyers would definitely want to know. Why is it that the families of the victims had to learn about these facts YEARS after the crash when the whistleblowers whose careers the Air Force RUINED made those FACTS known?

Can you say Y2K? I know you could.

I have no clue what you are referring to so I'll ask you again to specifically point out any errors, misrepresentations or lies in the reports by Ruddy on the Brown case. If you can't do it then your smear against Newsmax is GROUNDLESS as far as this case is concerned. You do realize that everything in Ruddy's articles has been cooberated in interviews by others with some of the principles (like Captain Janowski)?

Your facts conflict with the Air Force report.

NO. The Air Force Report conveniently doesn't mention the facts. FACT: I can name SIX pathologists involved in the Brown case or who have looked at the x-rays and photos since who say the wound looked like a bullet wound and Brown should have been autopsied. You won't be able to name ANY except Dickerson, head of AFIP, who I can prove LIED about the nature of the wound and the opinions of his staff (the pathologists). Even the pathologist who was in charge of the examination and is quoted in the report (Gormley) has now admitted that what he stated in the report was INCORRECT and that Brown should have been autopsied. And I could name many other facts that just conveniently were never mentioned in that report. Tell me, does that report explain the loss of transponder and radio contact when the plane was still 8 miles from the crash site? Well does it?

When did I defend Clinton or dishonor a single military officer?

Well you are in essence saying that Colonel Cogswell, Captain Janowski and several other military officers at AFIP are LIARS and that it was ok for the Air Force leadership to destroy their careers rather than simply show them that they are wrong about the facts they have alleged. And in doing that you ARE defending Clinton.

that three radar targets close to the crash site were Navy vessels on a classified maneuver. We know they were submarines because the radar tracks disappeared when TWA 800 crashed.

Hmmmm, I didn't know submarines had surface to air missles. Aside from that, If anyone on a sub saw a plane crash into the sea, the sub would have stayed on the surface to enhance their speed to the crash site.

If there is one thing I'm sure of it is that no sailor would leave anyone in peril on the sea, friendly or enemy, orders or not. That is as it should be.

You can look at a long list of coverups/lies, that our government has since changed its story and now admits to originally covering up the first reports, long after the first coverup story. The USS Pueblo, the attack on the Maddox at Tonkin Bay, "I will not send american boys to fight in Vietnam", the U2 incident with Gary Francis Powers, the weather ballon story at Rosswell, "I did not have sex with that woman", "read my lips", etc. etc.

Here's what it does say:the FBI had checked all their torpedo tubes and all their missile silos to make sure they had all the missiles on board that they had when they left port.

Here's what else it doesn't say. It doesn't say what type, or class of submarine it was. Your implication in post 121 is that it was a ballistic missile submarine. So far, we have a friend of a friend who said...which doesn't carry much weight at all.

Tell you what. If an American vessel was responsible for shooting down the aircraft, we would have heard about it already, and not from some anonymous source afraid for his retirement. That won't satisfy those folks who are looking for a conspiracy though. Don't worry, I won't stop you. Everyone has to have a hobby. This just happens to be yours.

Now that the Super Bowl and Playmate Fear Factor are over, I can respond.

Please see the following website for a thorough debunking of the Clinton Body Count "Theory"

I'm not advocating the "Body Count Theory". I'm talking about ONE INSTANCE where there is a mountain of evidence suggesting that someone(s) associated with the Clinton administration MURDERED a Secretary of Commerce (along with at least 34 others on the plane) and that certain people(s) in the Clinton administration and Military helped cover it up. Furthermore, let's take a look at what your so-called "debunking" site says about the Brown crash.

*** "There were no survivors." ***

That is UNTRUE. One of the flight attendants did in fact survive the crash. TEN HOURS later when rescuers arrived she was STILL alive. She then died on the way to the hospital under the care of a doctor. How "unfortunate" for her. This is PUBLIC RECORD so why does this site suggest there were no survivors?

Furthermore, a confidential timeline, uncovered by Judicial Watch via a FOIA suit, contains a message that was sent to the Secretary of State Warren Christopher from the crash site by Abe Sockowitz (an associate of John Huang, the Chinese SPY, by the way). It notified Christopher that there were TWO survivors. The government has NEVER mentioned this to anyone, not even in that OFFICIAL report you so cherish. Immediatedly after receiving this message, Christopher ordered that access to the site by journalists be curtailed. To this day, the government STILL has refused to comment on who Sockowitz considered the 2nd survivor.

Finally, Cyril Wecht, one of the foremost forensic pathologists in the entire country, after looking at the Brown photos, x-rays and examination report stated that EXCEPT for the hole in Brown's brain, his injuries were NOT life threatening. He said Brown could have survived the impact.

The "debunking" site goes on to say: *** "A lot has been made of an x-ray of Brown's skull in which what looks like a round entry wound appears. Closer examination of Brown's skull by military officials revealed no bullet, no bone fragments, no metal fragments and, even more telling, no exit wound." ***

This is UNTRUE in EVERY aspect. EVERY single pathologist involved in the case who has made public statements, INCLUDING Colonel Gormley who was in charge of examining the body, has now stated that it had the appearance of a bullet wound and there should have been an autopsy. Contrary to what is in the OFFICIAL report, there was BRAIN MATTER visible in the entrance wound so there had to have been bone fragments. And, according to the pathologists, there ARE bone fragments visible in the x-ray inside the skull, displaced away from the entrance hole. Several of the pathologists also say they see what could be metal fragments in the x-rays ... a lead snowstorm. Captain Janowski has stated, UNDER OATH, that she was told by Major Sentelle that Gormley tampered with the x-ray machine to try and hide the lead snowstorm in a second set of x-rays (which have ALSO disappeared). Cyril Wecht said the photos show what appear to be metallic fragments around the entrance wound which, he said, is characteristic of bullet entrance wounds. And as to there being no bullet ... well NO AUTOPSY was done. Do an autopsy and you may find one. As to there being no exit wound ... the most "telling" item ... noone would know because they did even NOT look for one (and that is the testimony of MULTIPLE people at the examination INCLUDING Colonel Gormley). So you see, this paragraph in your "debunking" site is FULL OF UNTRUTHS ... DEMONSTRABLE LIES. Makes one suspicious about the rest of the site.

From your "debunking" site: *** "Simply imagining a scenario under which Ron Brown could have been shot takes one into the realm of the absurd." ***

Here again the authors of this site are not telling the FACTS ... plus they have the cart before the horse. If there were a bullet wound in Brown's head, AS ALL THE EXPERTS SUGGEST MIGHT BE THE CASE, then no matter how implausible it might sound, someone managed to put one there. THAT is when you figure out how.

But in any case, there is a perfectly plausible scenario, based again ON THE FACTS which this site and people like you seem to want to avoid. First, we KNOW that a backup beacon was stolen from the airport to which the plane was headed several days before the crash. COINCIDENTALLY, the man in charge of that beacon at the airport committed "suicide" a few days after the crash ... before he could be interviewed. How "strange" that he kills himself using a shotgun to the CHEST. How "strange" that the NY Times IMMEDIATELY reported the cause was a failed romance ... one would think the man would have other things on his mind than a "romance" given he was a central figure in the SERIOUS crash that had just occurred. I wonder ... does your Air Force report mention this man and his death? That sure seems like something lawyers might want to know.

Second, the published flight path of the plane clearly shows a sudden 90 degree maneuver just before its attempted landing ... one which the report and the officer in charge of the crash investigation do not explain. It is entirely plausible that the plane was spoofed into crashing into the mountain using the portable backup beacon. All that would have been needed is for the normal beacon, which was working BEFORE and AFTER the crash, to have been momentarily turned off. And what a coincidence ... the man who would have been able to do that ... the maintenance chief in charge of the beacons ... committed suicide right after the crash.

But there is more. We KNOW that something happened on board that plane when it was still 8 MILES from the crash site. That is when BOTH transponder and voice contact were lost. Two SEPARATE systems on board that plane failed at the same time. We also know that the crashed plane was found with the rear door open. If you were going to spoof the plane into flying into a mountain, it might be a good idea to cut communications with the plane so that the pilots could get no help from the ground ... so they would have to depend on the beacon even if it did something odd (like show up 10 degrees off from where they were expecting it) right before landing.

And still more! If you were going to deliberately crash a plane, wouldn't you want to make sure that the person you were trying to kill was dead? You KNOW where the plane is coming down (because you are doing the spoofing) so it would make sense to place some people you could trust on the ground nearby to move in and "make sure". Don't you think? So you need to make sure that recovery efforts look elsewhere at first. Well, initially the military reported finding wreckage at sea ... miles from the crash site ... so all initial recovery efforts were focused on an area far removed from the actual crash site. Furthermore, Associate Press reported that the first rescuers to arrive at the crash site many hours later were met by 3 Americans who were already on the ground. Funny ... the OFFICIAL report doesn't mention these men. Funny, noone in the US government has ever admitted to our people arriving at the crash site first. Can you spell CLEAN UP CREW?

So ... having DEBUNKED your so-called "debunking" site, let's move on to the rest of what you posted.

We are not discussing the Ron Brown case.

But you are claiming that it would be impossible to have a large conspiracy of silence involving the military, NTSB and other government agencies. You seem to be suggesting that military people would never involve themselves in something as terrible as a mass murder. The Brown case, however, seems to show that isn't necessarily true ... at least during the Clinton years. Furthermore, I think your response to the Brown evidence is illuminating with regards to how credible your opinions are in other cases. I might agree with you about the TWA 800 case ... IF you were not clearly trying to ignore credible evidence of misdeeds in the Brown case. That should make everyone suspicious as to your motives.

Do you believe the official explanation for the explosion and crash of TWA 800?

As I have said, I haven't made up my mind. There ARE facts which the official line in the TWA800 case do not seem to explain. There ARE facts (for example, statements by the government about the presence of ships in the area) which seem to suggest the government has been less than honest at times. And I am not willing to totally ignore so many eyewitness accounts.

By the way, Ron Brown's family is satisfied with the Air Force report and has called for an end to all the speculation.

Sure, let's discuss this since you seem to want to tell only half the story. First, Brown's family was NOT told about the statements of the pathologists and the x-rays by the government ... or any of the other suspicious facts surrounding the case. If they had been, they would surely have demanded an autopsy and, indeed, when those pathologist opinions finally came to light years later, at least one member of the Brown family ... his daughter, Tracy ... did call for an investigation. To bad she and her family based their decision not to pursue that investigation on a report from an unnamed pathologist that they hired ... a pathologist who seems to have been more than a little "misinformed". She says he told them they found no exit wound which is why she stopped calling for an autopsy. Problem is, as I pointed out earlier, they NEVER looked for an exit wound. She also repeated the other lies from your "debunking" site. One wonders who recommended that pathologist ... or if he even exists?

As to the wife and son not demanding an investigation ... well consider this. BOTH were already indicted at the time of Brown's death on charges related to some for which Brown was about to be indicted. That gave the administration CONSIDERABLE leverage over them. After Brown's death, the indictment against the wife was dropped and the son (Michael) in the end received only a hand slap for what are clearly SERIOUS crimes. The Browns, along with the other families of victims, received over TEN MILLION dollars in compensation from the government ... on the condition that they drop all law suits. And, to this day, Michael ... despite being a convicted FELON ... is STILL working for the democRATS in a position important enough to get him interviewed from time to time on shows like THE FACTOR. It is the old carrot and stick approach. Keep quiet and we'll reward you. Make a fuss and you'll end up in jail ... or worse. Afterall, if they were willing to kill Ron, do you think the same people would have shed any tears if the wife or son met an unfortunate accident? So perhaps THAT is why the Brown family has called for an end to speculation.

Washington Post January 09, 1998 Cogswell himself did not participate in the examination conducted on Brown's body.

Do you think that forensic pathologists are unable to look at photos of the wound and x-rays of the skull and make a reasonable assessment as to the cause? How more certain can the person at the examination table be if they didn't do an autopsy? ... if they did no tests for gunpowder? ... if they didn't even look for an exit wound? ... even when other people and pathologists at the examination were saying it looked like a bullet wound and that Brown should be autopsied?

He repeated his concerns in an interview with the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, a newspaper owned by conservative philanthropist Richard Mellon Scaife that has frequently published reports about conspiracy theories surrounding the death of deputy White House counsel Vincent Foster.

How does being a conservative preclude one from publishing the facts? Funny that a conservative, like you claim to be, would suggest dismissing an report in major newspaper because the paper is owned by a conservative (I presume that is what you are doing by posting this article)? And its odd that a conservative would dismiss the source because it questioned the circumstances surrounding Foster's death. Out of curiosity, do you think Foster committed suicide as the Clinton administration proclaimed? If so, are you willing to answer some of the many unanswered questions about that death ... perhaps the questions that were asked by Representative Barr of Ken Starr ... or perhaps the questions asked at www.FBI-COVERUP.com?

A third pathologist, Cyril H. Wecht, said after reviewing some of Brown's X-rays that an autopsy was needed to firmly conclude how he died. "The pictures they have certainly don't tell you what killed this man," Wecht said.

A very self-serving, "selective", out-of-context quote. Here is more of what Wecht said. "It's not even arguable in the field of medical legal investigations whether an autopsy should have been conducted on Brown. I'll wager you anything that you can't find a forensic pathologist in America who will say Brown should not have been autopsied."

Armed forces officials acknowledge that the injury on Brown's head resembles a gunshot wound. But they said further investigation made it clear that Brown was not shot and instead died of "blunt force injury."

I can name and quote the 4 AFIP officers who came forward as whistleblowers; Colonel Cogswell, Colonel Hause, Major Parsons and Captain Janoski. Can you name or quote even one of the "officials" who this article CLAIMS says it was "blunt force"? If you name Dickerson, head of AFIP, I will prove that he publically LIED about the views of his staff in this matter. If you name Gormley, I will prove that he publically LIED about the nature of the wound and has since even admitted that Brown should be autopsied. Other than those two, I have not heard the names of ANY other pathologists willing to defend the government's "fiction". Furthermore, Cogswell and Hause were amongst the most expert people at AFIP when it comes to gunshot wounds. I wonder what credentials those you name will have?

They are unsure of what caused the fracture, saying that in the chaos of a plane wreck Brown's skull could have been punctured by any of hundreds of objects.

The article neglects to mention that an extensive search was made at the crash, by Cogswell, for the cause of the wound AND NOTHING WAS FOUND. Still, that didn't stop Eric Junger, another AFIP manager, from LYING publically that a cause had been found. AFIP management seems to LIE very readily, don't they? Are you sure you want to rely on them as your basis for concluding everything was A-OK in the Brown case?

Furthermore, they said, X-rays taken as part of the examination of Brown's body found no bone or metal fragments, no exit wound and no bullet -- all of which they said are normally associated with a gunshot injury to the head.

Again, DEMONSTRABLY UNTRUE, as I've already pointed out. Which just proves that this article is nothing but mainstream regurgitation of a story that the Clinton administration wanted the mainstream to regurgitate. I doubt the author of this article even bothered to leave his office or do more than call Dickerson or Kelly, the AFIP spokesperson.

In addition, pathologists who examined Brown said the portion of Brown's skull near the wound would have been shattered had Brown been shot.

Again, the author does not name these "pathologists". I wonder why. The pathologists who have been named ALL state that the entrance wound looks like a bullet wound. In fact, speaking as an engineer somewhat familiar with impact mechanics, I suspect a blunt force impact would have been more likely to "shatter" Brown's skull than a high velocity round at close range.

"There is no doubt in anybody's mind who evaluated his case that this was a blunt force injury and not a gunshot wound," said Col. William T. Gormley, the Air Force pathologist who examined Brown's body and ordered additional X-rays after finding the head injury.

DEMONSTRABLY FALSE. Clearly a lot by competent professionals who evaluated this case don't believe the "blunt force" fantasy. And let's look closer at Gormley's honesty. On December 11, 1997, despite the gag order, Gormley was allowed to give a live interview on Black Entertainment Television. Members of the black community, who had heard rumors about the possibility of a gun shot wound in Brown's head, had begun to ask for an investigation. Gormley immediately attacked the other pathologists. He stated that one could rule out a bullet wound because no brain matter was visible in the wound. He also stated that the x-rays taken during the examination showed no trace of a bullet injury. He denied that two sets of x-rays existed. Then, on live TV, he was confronted with a photograph taken during the examination (by Janoski) that showed brain matter visible in the wound. He ended up admitting that brain matter was indeed visible, excusing his former statements as a memory lapse. He then admitted that the hole was a "red flag" which should have triggered a further inquiry. Next he was confronted with a copy of Janowski's x-ray slides. He immediately changed his story and claimed that this first set of x-rays had been "lost" so that a second set was required. It was then pointed out that the Janoski x-rays slides show signs of a "lead snowstorm", which he didn't refute. Judicial Watch says that Colonel Gormley now admits that he consulted with other high-ranking pathologists present DURING the external examination of Ron Brown's body and they AGREED that the hole looked like a gunshot wound, "at least an entrance gunshot wound". Furthermore, he confesses that no autopsy was requested based on "discussions" at the highest levels in Commerce, the Joint Chiefs of Staff and THE WHITEHOUSE! Are you sure you want to put your faith in Gormley's original LIES ... the LIES contained in that OFFICIAL report?

Gormley's conclusion was unanimously backed by a review panel that included armed forces pathologists assembled after Cogswell's criticisms surfaced last month. The group issued a report reaffirming the initial Air Force conclusion that Brown's death was accidental, according to Col. Michael Dickerson, director of the pathology institute. He said Hause was among the doctors on that review panel, although Hause declined to comment on the panel's work yesterday. Likewise, Cogswell has declined to comment on the issue, citing the advice of his attorney.

Boy is this a pack of LIES. In a written statement, Cogswell declined to comment to the Post on the issue because "I do not trust you to accurately and fairly represent what I say." As I will show, his concerns are justified. According to Cogswell, he refused to participate in the review, following the advice of his lawyer, because he thought it would be unfair and biased. He says that most of those participating were not board-certified in forensic pathology and of those who were, none had significant interest or experience in gunshot wounds. He says that ALL of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner's forensic pathologists with any expertise in gunshot wounds (Cogswell, Hause and Parsons) dissented from the "official" opinion.

In fact, Hause told the Tribune-Review that "Fletcher's article in the Washington Post, in which Colonel Dickerson said I concurred in this `unanimous' finding, contains a lie." The Post report left him "fuming," Hause said, and that evening he prepared a point-by-point statement countering AFIP's claims. Hause said he was never informed a report was to be issued on the Brown case, nor did he ever see the report that AFIP claims he signed off on. He asked the Armed Forces Chief Medical Examiner, Dr. Jerry Spencer, for a copy of the report. Spencer said he would not release it, and the decision on whether to release it rested with Dickerson.

Hause is quoted as saying he and several other pathologists from the office met with Spencer, ostensibly to conduct the internal review. But Hause said the review was not done by the group, because Spencer began the meeting by informing the pathologists that he would not permit any group discussion on the case. Instead, Spencer showed them photographic and X-ray evidence from the Brown case. Hause was startled that the pathologists were presented with only "blow-ups of Polaroids" of Brown's body. Hause described the instant photos as "hard to decipher," and noted that Spencer could have used 35mm photos that would have been "better material" for analysis.

After the presentation, Spencer met individually with each pathologist to discuss findings. During their private meeting, Spencer asked a handful of questions, Hause recalled. One was whether Hause thought the circular hole was caused by a gunshot. Hause told Spencer he thought it was "probably not" a gunshot, but at no point did he rule out the possibility that it was. Hause said he emphasized to Spencer that the wound was very consistent with an "exotic weapon," such as a captive-bolt gun. Hause noted that a captive-bolt gun, normally used to slaughter livestock, creates a perfectly circular hole in the skull that closely resembles a gunshot.

According to Hause, Spencer asked if he agreed with Gormley's findings. Hause responded that the death was "probably" accidental, but that there was insufficient evidence to say Brown died of blunt force injuries as a result of the plane crash. Hause also says he advised Spencer that Gormley should have conducted an autopsy, and that "Secretary Brown's body should be exhumed and an autopsy performed by pathologists not associated with AFIP."

Parsons, another participant in the internal review, told the Tribune-Review that he, too, could not back Gormley's findings. Reached at his home Saturday, the Air Force major also said he had never reviewed nor signed off on any such report, and had no idea what the report contained. Parsons said the statement in Friday's Post that all panelists had agreed with Gormley's findings "was not true."

According to Parsons, he told Spencer during their private meeting that the circular hole was both suspicious and unusual, and could not reasonably be accounted for by the plane crash. He also said the head wound was just one of many reasons an autopsy should have been performed. Asked by Spencer if he agreed with Gormley's main findings - that the manner of death was accidental, and that death was caused by blunt force injuries - Parsons told Spencer that neither finding could be substantiated at the time and that, in his opinion, the manner of death was "undetermined."

Asked about all this, AFIP spokesman Chris Kelly said AFIP "stands by" Dickerson's claim that the findings of the review panel were unanimously supported by AFIP pathologists. Kelly said the panel's report was "not for public release," and he had no further information about its contents. Can you spell STONEWALL?

So, BoPepper, it looks like someone is not being very honest about the facts here ... doesn't it ... DICKERSON, KELLY (the AFIP spokesperson) and the author of the article you cite. In fact, as Hause noted to Ruddy, because of the unusual way the review was conducted, he has no idea whether the other pathologists agreed with Gormley's findings AS AFIP HAS CLAIMED. I would suspect not, given the above DEMONSTRABLE LIES.

The Pentagon said an autopsy was unnecessary because the forensic pathologist who examined Brown's body concluded the head wound was consistent with a blunt-force injury associated with the plane crash.

As noted above, that pathologist, Gormley, was caught LYING on national TV about the evidence in the case and has since retracted this "conclusion". You need another source of information BoPepper.

"It's an investigation to make sure Dr. Cogswell did not violate policies and procedures, and to make sure there were not other violations," Kelly said.

No, it was a effort to DESTROY the career of Cogswell. Let's note a few FACTS about this so called investigation. As of today, Cogswell, Hause, Parsons and Janowski have all been reassigned to other duties outside their areas of expertise and the Government has tried to limit their contact with fellow pathologists by barring them from conferences. They had their homes searched without a search warrant and have been given negative job evaluations (for the first time in careers spanning over 10 years). For example, Cogswell's evaluation, which was six months late, states that he is "disruptive to the work environment with immature behavior." He has been "unresponsive to counseling," it continues, adding that he has used "inappropriate language" and worn "inappropriate dress." Cogswell is even criticized for his manner of driving in the AFIP facility's parking lot. The belated report bears three signatures, including those of Armed Forces Chief Medical Examiner Jerry Spencer and AFIP Director Col. Michael Dickerson, both PROVEN liars. The signatures are not even dated. Cogswell's performance evaluations before the Ron Brown cover-up described him as "extremely capable," and "the number one forensic pathologist in the Department of Defense."

"All I said was the man needed an autopsy," says Cogswell. Now he's been transferred to dental forensics at another site: in effect, a demotion. Had he ever had a problem like this before? "Oh no," he says. "I was the golden boy. The evaluations previously said 'He's the man we'd pick for the toughest missions.' I was the team leader of choice to investigate any sort of airplane crash or death, no matter how complicated, and no matter how politically sensitive. And now I'm probably back in the senior medical student status of reading pathology slides on things that are scraped out of people's mouths."

"Due to the initial appearance of Brown's injuries, we carefully considered the possibility of a gunshot wound. However, scientific data, including X-rays, ruled out that possibility." Gormley said the head injury appeared superficial, and a "thorough and detailed examination of the entire body, including multiple skull and full body X-rays, demonstrated no exit wounds, bullets or bullet fragments."

Others at the examination specifically refute the suggestion he makes about looking for exit wounds and bullet fragments and, as pointed out, Gormley has admitted that his impressions about the wound on which he based his conclusion were in "mistaken". Yet, people like you keep repeating the lies ... perhaps to keep the public in the dark?

Dr. Michael Graham, the medical examiner for St. Louis, said in general, a full examination and X-rays could rule out the need for an autopsy.

True ... if the conclusions were actually based on the observed wound characteristics and the contents of the x-rays. But as we now know, Gormley's weren't. And note that ultimately Graham admitted that he couldn't tell whether an autopsy could be ruled out.

Kelly, the institute's spokesman, said autopsies were performed on military personnel in the crash, the only group on which military doctors have the authority to perform autopsies.

A half truth at best. The AFIP management certainly could have requested permission to autopsy Brown's body. In fact, BY LAW, once there was any concern about foul play in the death of a Cabinet level person (and, remember, pathologists were saying it looks like a bullet wounds at the examination!), the FBI was supposed to be called in so that an autopsy could be ordered. Instead, the Whitehouse and JCS ordered that AFIP's management NOT do an autopsy. Wonder why?

So ... instead of simply smearing Newsmax, why don't you visit the site and read the many articles they have on the Brown matter. There is much more incriminating evidence that even what's been discussed here. Much more. Then, maybe you'd like to try again.

When Pierre Salinger, at a press conference in March 1997, declared that TWA Flight 800 had been shot down accidentally by a U.S. Navy missile, this former presidential press secretary, U.S. Senator and ABC News correspondent, was mercilessly attacked by his former colleagues.

I don't recall anyone saying there were no subs in the area. I can be wrong, but I think I have seen MANY references to the number of surface vessels (and, by imlication, subs) in the area. There has never been a question of that.

Here is the issue: the ONLY weapon that could have brought down that plane was a Standard (or missile of similar range), and NOT a "terrorist hand-held stinger."

When you get into these scenarios, however, you have a MULTITUDE of problems, especially the radar data, for which so far no one has been able to produce that shows ONE MISSILE (let alone TWO, as is required by the Sanders/Standard scenario). Surely ONE of those vessels, or ONE of the MANY FAA radard in that are would have ONE radar tape that SOMEONE would smuggle out to the public.

Like the JFK "missing bullet" from the "shooters in front," it is the one piece of evidence that would clearly make the unimpeachable case for a Navy "shootdown"---yet it is the piece of evidence that the conspiracy people cannot produce, despite the fact that it should be relatively easy to do so.

You claim to be big on "facts." There is one simple fact that would put this to rest---the one the conspiracy kooks do not want to confront: there are hundreds, if not THOUSANDS, of public, private, and government radar stations operating and dozens of them would have picked up something on their screens that day. Why is it that NOT ONE, NOWHERE, has a single radar image of a missile (by the way, you need TWO missiles, not one, for the thesis of this article to work. If you don't understand that, let me know and I'll 'splain it to you).

Sanders ("Downing of TWA 800") claims there was one such tape, but the FAA got it and either destroyed or altered it. Sorry, but what about the dozens of others? It is a ridiculous claim without that evidence. All the so-called "eyewitnesses"---the same people who had O.J. at different places in Los Angeles at different times---are thoroughly unreliable.

Moreover, if you look at the claims by the SCIENTISTS (such as Ian Goddard, who claims that the "holes" in the aft fuselage are evidence of an outside explosion above 800) and compare them with the claims of Sanders (who says that the "Standard, pass-through missile" cut TWA 800 in half in front of the center wing tank), you have two completely different scenarios. EITHER OF THEM requires TWO MISSILES ON A RADAR SCREEN (a drone and a hunter). But if BOTH these guys are right, now we need THREE missiles (a drone, an outside exploder, and a "pass through").

So stick to this fact: without a radar tape, you got zip, zero, nada. I will certainly be willing to change my view if you or anyone else provides radar evidence. (I likely would be convinced also if you could find some navy officers/sailors who actually FIRED the weapon, rather than a guy 80 miles away!!!! who says he saw something. That ain't evidence, and it sure isn't a "fact."

In your apparently irrational zeal to "get" someone here you display your ignorance of procedures. Even critics such as Ian Goddard admit that the NTSB has SUPREME jurisdiction over all air disasters, even over the FAA, and even over the Air Force if it so chooses to exercise such jurisdiction. In fact, you destroy your own case, because the fact that the Air Force gave UP this jurisdiction when (to the conspiratorial thinker) it could have superceded "official" channels, proves all the more this was handled in a normal manner.

On the Brown case, don't be ridiculous. "I can get six pathologists . . . blah, blah, blah." That's like saying you can get six lawyers to agree to some position you have.

Yes, pathologists have looked at Brown's photos, and at JFK's, and at Sacco-Vanzetti's, and everyone elses. It's amazing that they don't agree, either. In the absence of real evidence (radar data, actual sworn court testimony by Naval officers on board the vessel that "fired" the missile), why do you keep recirculating rumors and third-hand references?

And if the pathologists come to one conclusion about Brown, what makes you think that even well-trained honest Air Force people would not come to a completely different conclusion based on the fact that they AREN'T pathologists? In your view, they can't possibly disagree with your world conspiracy and be "honest."

Whether Reed Irvine is telling the truth really isn't the issue. The more interesting one is whether the alleged source is telling the truth.

Believe it or not, servicepeople have been known to exaggerate or even lie about their military service. This may come as a shock to some (sarcasm), but its true. Like anyone else, a servicemember may lie about something just to make themselves feel more important, or to garner attention from someone like Reed Irvine, or just to impress a friend with a cool story.

This guy's account, as repeated by Irvine, strikes me as ridiculous. Not knowing what a missile looks like alone marks him as a fabricator in my book. And what are we supposed to believe? That the hundreds (and perhaps thousands) of Navy people who would have had knowledge of this alleged coverup have stayed silent except for this one guy? Or that this one guy is a kook who simply made it up?

And if the guy really is retired, what's the risk to him of blabbing anyway? Hell, go to a major media outlet, tell your story, get megabucks. That's the easiest, safest, and most profitable course of action. But of course, he doesn't do that because he's lying, and he knows it.

Actually in the early 1980s, the Navy WAS experimenting with AA missiles on subs, but to my knowledge, nothing came of it because to "acquire and fire" would mean surfacing and thus placing the sub in more danger than when below the waterline.

The only facts I'm arguing are those in the Ron Brown crash. I introduced the topic to this thread as a counter argument to those who claim that it isn't conceivable that the government and military could be involved in a large coverup. IF, just ONCE, those debunking TWA800 would HONESTLY debate the facts in the Ron Brown evidence, or admit they know nothing about that case, THEN, their impartiality in the TWA800 case might be believable.

In your apparently irrational zeal to "get" someone here you display your ignorance of procedures. Even critics such as Ian Goddard admit that the NTSB has SUPREME jurisdiction over all air disasters, even over the FAA, and even over the Air Force if it so chooses to exercise such jurisdiction.

So ... is this going to be your spin ... that the NTSB asked the Air Force to skip its Safety Board in the Brown case ... for the FIRST TIME in Air Force history (except for that one friendly fire shoot down)? Perhaps you can quote from some source that proves the NTSB "exercised" its "jurisdiction" in the Air Force case? Or is this just another lame story concocted by someone trying to defend the indefensible?

In fact, you destroy your own case, because the fact that the Air Force gave UP this jurisdiction when (to the conspiratorial thinker) it could have superceded "official" channels, proves all the more this was handled in a normal manner.

If you want to maintain this was handled in a normal manner because the Air Force "gave up" jurisdiction, then you are going to have to first prove that happened. While the NTSB was involved in the Accident Investigation following the Brown crash, the Air Force was definitely still in charge. You've provided no basis for believing that the NTSB invited itself, told the Air Force to skip the Safety Board or was in any way or shape in control of the post crash investigation. In fact, you are making up another story because you can't explain the facts any other way.

On the Brown case, don't be ridiculous. "I can get six pathologists . . . blah, blah, blah." That's like saying you can get six lawyers to agree to some position you have.

The six I mentioned in the above posts were all highly respected. I can quote sources that prove it. They include ALL of the pathologists we know who were directly involved in the Brown case. The ONLY name I know of that still maintains it was definitely blunt force trauma is Dickerson, head of AFIP, who is demonstrable LIAR. If it is as easy as you say to get a pathologist to support your apparent view that Brown died by blunt force trauma, then prove it. Name one! Why are you having a problem coming up with even one name?

Yes, pathologists have looked at Brown's photos,

Fine. PROVE IT. NAME ONE. Stop trying to associate the case with other "conspiracies" and just NAME ONE PATHOLOGIST who says Brown died by blunt force trauma and did not need an autopsy.

In the absence of real evidence (radar data, actual sworn court testimony by Naval officers on board the vessel that "fired" the missile), why do you keep recirculating rumors and third-hand references?

I'm not saying anything about the TWA800 facts so you might as well get off that. I only stating that a government/military conspiracy is possible as the facts in the Ron Brown case appear to prove. That is what the other poster claimed isn't possible. As to what I've posted being rumors and third-hand references, you are being dishonest. It is not "rumor" that the pathologists say Brown had what looked like a bullet wound in his head and should have been autopsied. It is not rumor that a photo of an x-ray the government has acknowledged as authentic appears to show a lead snowstorm. It is not a rumor that the originals of the photos and x-rays have disappeared from a locked safe at AFIP. It is not a rumor that a military officer accused another, UNDER OATH, of tampering with the x-ray machine to hide signs of a lead snowstorm. And as to these being "third-hand" references, these statements have been supported by live interviews with Captain Janoski that you yourself can listen to on the internet if you wish.

And if the pathologists come to one conclusion about Brown, what makes you think that even well-trained honest Air Force people would not come to a completely different conclusion based on the fact that they AREN'T pathologists? In your view, they can't possibly disagree with your world conspiracy and be "honest."

Name one of those "well-trained, honest" Air Force people that has come to a different conclusion. I can name several that agree with my concern. What's your problem? Aren't ANY of those who believe Brown died by blunt force trauma willing to put their name on that conclusion. Or are they ALL hiding behind the AFIP manager ... who I've already shown above is a LIAR? I'll be happy to debate the facts with you ... IF you have ANY to offer. So far all you've done is throw out FICTION, disinformation and distraction.

One of the best analyses of this incident I've ever seen on the internet was at a site called deepseeker. It was from a physics student that analyzed the details available to try to find out what might have happened to the plane. Great read. The original article is now archived at:

"If Kallstrom came clean about the three naval vessels, he insisted on lying about the fourth, telling Reed Irvine that the critical "30 knot track" represented a helicopter, a preposterous speculation."

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