"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

What I mean is that the reality is four separate and distinct paths. The first threeof these are eightfold.

Those on any of these first three paths are called 'learners'. They may be developingone of these paths for from one to six weeks. When the fruit is attained the path factorscease, so those enjoying fruition are not learners. The first two fruits are transcendent and can continue for months [One has a temporary experience of the 'next world'.]The third fruit is permanently transcendent.

Each path is present for only a few weeks. Those enjoying fruition are not 'on' any path.Where, then, is 'the' noble eightfold path? It is just an abstract idea.

The Abhidhamma teaches that they are the same as the four floods and the four bonds.I think that this is correct.

In the five Nikaya's the four asava's are nowhere explained, nor are the four floods,but the four bonds are explained, in AN 4.10 - Bonds.

1. The bond of sensuality: sensual lust, delight, passion, attachment, sensual craving.2. The bond of existence: lust for existence ... craving for existence.3. The bond of views: lust for views ... craving for views.4. The bond of ignorance: not understanding, as they really are the origin and the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to the six bases for contact.

So the asava's of views, sensuality and existence are the lust for these things, or thecraving (for renewed existence) which is based on these things.

The asava of ignorance is the six spheres of contact. When these have ceased then theasava of ignorance has ceased.

But Dependent Origination shows that even after the six spheres have ceased there remainsconsciousness and name-and-form. These also have to be eliminated, so the destruction ofthe asava's is not completion of the path.

AN 2.67 - Bodhi translation wrote:"Bhikkhus, there are these two kinds of happiness. What two? The happiness with taints and the happiness without taints. These are the two kinds of happiness. Of these two kinds of happiness, the happiness without taints is foremost."

If there can be "two kinds of happiness" where "the happiness without taints is foremost", why cannot it also be so for Right View?

Metta,Retro.

"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

AN 2.67 - Bodhi translation wrote:"Bhikkhus, there are these two kinds of happiness. What two? The happiness with taints and the happiness without taints. These are the two kinds of happiness. Of these two kinds of happiness, the happiness without taints is foremost."

If there can be "two kinds of happiness" where "the happiness without taints is foremost", why cannot it also be so for Right View?

Metta,Retro.

What would right view with taints be as opposed to right view without taints. I assume, then, that right view with taints, being right view is important and probably necessary in one's practice, given that one cannot simply jump to right view without taints until one has gained that level of practice/insight.

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

tiltbillings wrote:What would right view with taints be as opposed to right view without taints.

I'm surprised you ask me, and not MN 117... the sutta is clear and addresses this very point.

tiltbillings wrote:I assume, then, that right view with taints, being right view is important and probably necessary in one's practice, given that one cannot simply jump to right view without taints until one has gained that level of practice/insight.

I sense there's a dead horse you wish to flog here, but my interest is not in that - my interest is on topic, and is about refuting the OP's notion "that the Mahācattārīsaka Sutta has been tampered with material from the Abhidhamma and some of the late works found in the Khuddaka Nikāya, that it contains a number of statements which are in direct contradiction with the teachings found elsewhere in the four Nikāyas, and that it seeks to despise the original teaching of the Buddha to promote terminology and theories of late origin."

Metta,Retro.

"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

tiltbillings wrote:What would right view with taints be as opposed to right view without taints.

I'm surprised you ask me, and not MN 117... the sutta is clear and addresses this very point.

I asked you, or anyone else who may care to answer.

tiltbillings wrote:I assume, then, that right view with taints, being right view is important and probably necessary in one's practice, given that one cannot simply jump to right view without taints until one has gained that level of practice/insight.

I sense there's a dead horse you wish to flog here, but my interest is not in that - my interest is on topic, and is about refuting the OP's notion "that the Mahācattārīsaka Sutta has been tampered with material from the Abhidhamma and some of the late works found in the Khuddaka Nikāya"

I stay away from dead horses. They tend to stink. Now that the "counterfeit question has been pretty much discarded, I am asking this question given that various opinions about what this sutta is saying have been put forth on this forum. Sorry, did not mean to touch a raw nerve here.

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

tiltbillings wrote:Now that the "counterfeit question has been pretty much discarded...

At what point exactly was the actual topic "discarded", in preference for off-topic diversions? And who decided this? And on what basis?...

tiltbillings wrote:...I am asking this question given that various opinions about what this sutta is saying have been put forth on this forum.

Perhaps if you wish to initiate an exploration on whether or not "one cannot simply jump to right view without taints until one has gained that level of practice/insight", you can kindly start your own topic to do so.

Metta,Retro.

"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

tiltbillings wrote:Now that the "counterfeit question has been pretty much discarded...

At what point exactly was the actual topic "discarded", in preference for off-topic diversions? And who decided this? And on what basis?...

Not a diversion. Actually, it would be directly to the point of what the terms meant, now that we are not looking at them through Abhidhamma filters: "If there can be "two kinds of happiness" where "the happiness without taints is foremost", why cannot it also be so for Right View."

tiltbillings wrote:...I am asking this question given that various opinions about what this sutta is saying have been put forth on this forum.

Perhaps if you wish to initiate an exploration on whether or not "one cannot simply jump to right view without taints until one has gained that level of practice/insight", you can kindly start your own topic to do so.

Maybe.

I'm surprised you ask me

Being human and all, mistakes are made. It shan't happen again.)

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

AN 2.67 - Bodhi translation wrote:"Bhikkhus, there are these two kinds of happiness. What two? The happiness with taints and the happiness without taints. These are the two kinds of happiness. Of these two kinds of happiness, the happiness without taints is foremost."

This distinction between pleasure that is anāsava versus pleasure that is sāsava seems to be implied in MN 44's treatment of the latent tendencies. Apparently, the latent tendency to lust does not underlie the pleasure of 1st Jhana. To the extent that the anusayā listing coincides a fair bit with the āsavā listing, perhaps jhanic pleasure is anāsava.

This much seems to be implied from MN 101, where after contrasting the pain of the Niganthas against the pleasures of the jhanas, the Buddha proclaims that the pleasures of the latter are anāsava -

...yaṃ etarahi evarūpā anāsavā sukhā vedanā vedeti

...since he now feels such taintless pleasant feelings

I would just note that the Commentaries interpret that section in MN 44 somewhat differently, ascribing the abandonment of the rāgānusaya (latent tendency to lust) to the specific attainment of anāgāmimagga (Non-Returner's Path (citta)). That's the Abhidhammic lokuttara citta model governing the Comy, but the plain reading of the MN 117 conception of anāsava does not appear to lend itself to either being the source for the Abhidhammic model or being influenced by the Abhidhammic model.

If there can be "two kinds of happiness" where "the happiness without taints is foremost", why cannot it also be so for Right View?

I believe it is possible, going by the discussion of Right View in MN 41 that I posted a little earlier. It appears that if one craves for good rebirth, one of the necessary conditions for the desire to materialise would have to include the 3 conducts in accordance with the Dhamma. One of such 3 conducts is the mental conduct of Right View, defined in MN 117's standard pericope of "There is what is given ... etc etc".

The Right View here does not seem to be inherently an āsava. I think the "sa" in sāsava refers to āsava accompanying the Right View. The āsava in question seems to be the various forms of craving for rebirth in the respective spheres.

Thanks for sharing, but I'm unable to ascertain from venerable Dhammanando's quote whether the words 'sāsava' and 'anāsava', are the actual words used in Petakopadesa and Nettipakarana to represent 'mundane' and 'supramundane', or whether those treatises use their own words to reflect these notions, which are then in some way related back to MN 117's own terms - 'sāsava' and 'anāsava'. (Oh for the days when Ven.D was here instead of in the hills!)

The fact that words found in a particular sutta may also happen to appear in subsequent treatises doesn't seem surprising in and of itself. As for the matter of these terms appearing in this sutta alone seems of little more significance than the fact that in the 12907 posts I've made to date on this forum, that I'm sure there's some posts which include a particular word that is unique to that post (vis-a-vis the 'canon' of my posts), that does not appear elsewhere in my other 12906 posts.

If there's anything I'm missing here, feel free to help me join the dots. At this point though, I do not understand the full importance of it.

Metta,Retro.

I think actually this is a fairly cut and dried case of later textual addition. It checks two very signficant boxes:

a) material with no parallel in either Agamas nor Tibetan collections (this one, it seems, is actually preserved in Tibetan too, so the strength of the comparison is quite heavy).b) Proclaims tenets that are not found anywhere else in the canon(s).

Really, what more do you want for proof of it being a later addition? I suppose if some heavy grammatical analysis showed that the grammar shows signs of being later that would seal the deal, but other than that I don't see what more you could ask for if we are to acknowledge any suttas have been tampered with at all.

edit: And in this case, we also have a clear motive for the editorial addition. Although I take point that for all we know, the abidhammikas took their inspiration from the [already edited?] sutta rather than editing it back into the sutta. But it does have the look of an addition that is not exactly random.

Anders Honore wrote:I think actually this is a fairly cut and dried case of later textual addition. It checks two very signficant boxes:

a) material with no parallel in either Agamas nor Tibetan collections (this one, it seems, is actually preserved in Tibetan too, so the strength of the comparison is quite heavy).b) Proclaims tenets that are not found anywhere else in the canon(s).

Following Ven Anālayo, whose scholarship on this is far better than anything else presented here or elsewhere linked on the subject, I think you are probably correct. The question is: how important is it one way or the other?

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

1. The ordinary man understands right view as right belief. MN 117 gives a set of beliefs as wrong view, and their opposites as right view. This right view is what most ordinary men already believe. So they are sure that they have right view and that they are on the noble eightfold path.

2. The noble disciple is not satisfied with such beliefs, although they are true they are of no help in reaching liberation in this life. The noble disciple understands right view as right understanding. Since there are four paths each must be understood before one can begin. This is why right view is put first. So there are four distinct right views because each path has to be understood.

3. So the teachings depend on an ambiguity in the word 'ditthi' (view). The literal meaning of this word is 'sight'. There is a similar ambiguity with the word 'see' in English, which, depending on the context, can refer to someone's belief, or to their understanding.

4. MN 117 explains that to discern right resolve as right resolve, and wrong resolve as wrong resolve is ones right view, and applies the same to other path factors. This means that one has to understand what is right resolve and what is wrong resolve. One has to understand each of the path factors in order to understand the path. So right view is right understanding of the path, it is seeing what is the path and what is not the path.

5. But MN 117 also says that discerning right view as right view is ones right view. This is confusing and should be ignored. Right view as right understanding of the path only needs to be an understanding of the other seven path factors.

6. But in any description of the path which uses these eight factors something is missing. For a noble disciple each path is about eliminating something. These eight factors do not specify what that something is. This understanding of what has to be eliminated is the most essential thing, and without it there can be no right view, no understanding of the path.

7. The first path is simple to understand because we are told, elsewhere in the teachings, what has to be eliminated. We know that the stream enterer, the one who has obtained the fruit of stream entry, has eliminated views of self. So it must be these views of self which are diminished and removed by progress on this path.

Anders Honore wrote:I think actually this is a fairly cut and dried case of later textual addition. It checks two very signficant boxes:

a) material with no parallel in either Agamas nor Tibetan collections (this one, it seems, is actually preserved in Tibetan too, so the strength of the comparison is quite heavy).b) Proclaims tenets that are not found anywhere else in the canon(s).

Hi Anders Honore

That is not quite true, as most of the tenets are found in the Nikayas and none of the tenets contradict the essence of the Nikayas.

MN 117 states:

And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

The above aspects of wisdom are stock in the suttas, being the Five Faculties, the Five Powers & the Seven Factors of Enlightenment.

And what is the right resolve that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The thinking, directed thinking, resolve, (mental) fixity, transfixion, focused awareness & verbal fabrications of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right resolve that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

Similarly, most of the terms above are found in descriptions of the path & the jhanas.

Anders Honore wrote:Really, what more do you want for proof of it being a later addition? I suppose if some heavy grammatical analysis showed that the grammar shows signs of being later that would seal the deal, but other than that I don't see what more you could ask for if we are to acknowledge any suttas have been tampered with at all.

edit: And in this case, we also have a clear motive for the editorial addition. Although I take point that for all we know, the abidhammikas took their inspiration from the [already edited?] sutta rather than editing it back into the sutta. But it does have the look of an addition that is not exactly random.

"Here, venerable sir, a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed develops the faculty of faith, which leads to peace, leads to enlightenment. He develops the faculty of energy ... the faculty of mindfulness ... the faculty of concentration ... the faculty of wisdom, which leads to peace, leads to enlightenment."

[Bhikkhu Bodhi, TCDB, page 1700, part of SN 48.58 - The Boar's Cave.]

This discourse will also be rejected as a counterfeit by those who think that thedestruction of the asava's is the highest stage.

Anders Honore wrote:edit: And in this case, we also have a clear motive for the editorial addition. Although I take point that for all we know, the abidhammikas took their inspiration from the [already edited?] sutta rather than editing it back into the sutta. But it does have the look of an addition that is not exactly random.

Hi Anders,what motive is clear?

on a general note -does this addition point somewhere else than to nibbana?I am reminded of the buddhas last advise to the stream enterers "dont be content with what you have" or words to that effect.

sorry I have a bandaged finger and I am not inclined to go through the parinibbana sutta at the moment.

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

"Again, a monk who has abandoned the three fetters, and has reduced his greed, hatred, and delusion, becomes a once-returner who, having returned to this world once more, will make an end of suffering."

"Again, a monk through the extinction of the corruptions (asavas) reaches in this very life the uncorrupted deliverance of mind, the deliverance through wisdom, which he has realised by his own insight."

This last passage looks like it is describing a further, higher stage. But it could be interpreted as another description, in different words, of the non-returner.

Some of the other versions of this description of the 'highest stage' do use the term 'arahant'.

Āsava: lit: fermentations, taints, corruptions, intoxicant biases. There is a list of four as in D. 16, Pts.M., Vibh.:1: The mental fermentation of sense-desire kāmāsava, Ex: 'All is pleasant'2: The mental fermentation of desiring existence bhavāsava, Ex: 'Being is good'3: The mental fermentation of wrong views ditthāsava, Ex: 'My opinion is best'4: The mental fermentation of ignorance avijjāsava. Ex: 'Suffering exists not'A list of three, omitting the fermentation of views, is possibly older and is more frequent in the Suttas, e.g. in M. 2, M. 9, D. 33; A. III, 59, 67; A. VI, 63. In Vibh. Khuddakavatthu Vibh. both the 3-fold and 4-fold division are mentioned. The fourfold division also occurs under the name of floods ogha and yokes yoga.