The pastoral letters were clear instructions from Paul on how to run
the Christian church, and the relationship between Christ, Christians,
the church, and each other. It is no mistake that all of the pastoral
letters are almost identical. Paul wasn't addressing a specific group
or a few people, he was addressing Christians as a whole.

Paul's letters were to specific churches in response to their specific needs or concerns.

I do not need men to interpret the Word of God in the Quran, it speaks for itself.

You need commentaries in order to understand what is going.

As for the verses you quoted from the Quran, you forgot to highlight the preceeding sentence:

I didn't
expect you an respond to what I posted in reqard to the Qur'an.
My point was that if you take verses in the Bible out of context, you
can come up with the wrong impression. You seemed to what to
interpret them as you saw fit. My point is that I can do the same
with the Qur'an.

So, basically you used men's words
to show that women have less rights than they are given in the
Quran, but more than they are given in the Scriptures.

The
whole Bible was written by men as instructed by God Almighty. Men
and women are equal in right's according the New Testament.

The
Qur'an was written by men too. From the angel to a man, from that
man to other men and then other men to correct the Qur'ans that were in
error and made a standard by Ulthman.

The
hands of men are in the commentaries of the Qur'an. How do you
know that these men are correct? Most Mulsims cannot read the
original dialect, very few I understand. I have seen many Muslims
argue about the meaning of some of the ayas.

Annie

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

"The Qur'an was written by men too. From the angel to a man, from that man to other men and then other men to correct the Qur'ans that were in error and made a standard by Ulthman.

The hands of men are in the commentaries of the Qur'an. How do you know that these men are correct? Most Mulsims cannot read the original dialect, very few I understand. I have seen many Muslims argue about the meaning of some of the ayas."

These are very serious allegations as all Muslims know, and historians agree, the Quran has not been changed. The Arabic it was written in is still spoken today in the Gulf states.

I would say since you make these claims, bring forth your proof. Real proof from noted historians, Islamic theologians, and degreed linguist. Not just some crazy Christian missionary or "ex-Muslim" who says so.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)

"Paul's letters were to specific churches in response to their specific needs or concerns."

Yeah! Paul was issuing directives from foreign lands, instead of the elders doing the same from Jeruslem. Any letters should have been issued by the Church in Jerusalem and it would have been more convincing. Sadly, that was not done. Paul has the honour of being the First Dictator of a religion.

Mishmish wrote: "I do not need men to interpret the Word of God in the Quran, it speaks for itself."

and Annie, you replied:"You need commentaries in order to understand what is going."

Don't you, Annie? OK, how would you explain this without any commentary: He said to Jesus, "My Lord, my God!"

Without any commentary from you, I can safely say that the guy expressed a surprise when he addressed Jesus as Lord, which in Semitic languages is a very common term.

My Arab driver and supervisor call me Lord too, but that does not mean I am Lord the God.Saying "my God" or "My God" did not confirm that Thomas was calling Jesus the Lord God. So, Thomas said,"My lord" which means My lord Jesus and then said, just an example from me: " 'My God', I can't believe you are here safe and sound, Jesus."

From you, Annie: "I didn't expect you an respond to what I posted in reqard to the Qur'an. My point was that if you take verses in the Bible out of context, you can come up with the wrong impression. You seemed to what to interpret them as you saw fit. My point is that I can do the same with the Qur'an."

OK, please do the same with verses of Qur'aan and I will oblige.

From you, Annie: The whole Bible was written by men as instructed by God Almighty. Men and women are equal in right's according the New Testament.

Men and women are equal in the sight of God.

Annie, I don't think you are that misinformed, when you wrote:The Qur'an was written by men too. From the angel to a man, from that man to other men and then other men to correct the Qur'ans that were in error and made a standard by Ulthman.

Qur'aan was recited by the Arch-Angel, Gabriel of Judaism and Christianity, to a Prophet who recited to his people, who in turn heard him and wrote EXACTLY what he recited. I think you are allergic to Uthman like I am allergic to Paul. Uthman was not sitting alone like Paul, issuing letetrs and writing verses. There were hundreds of Prophet's Companions and Scribes with him.

Annie, this comment of yours, I am afraid, would fall in the category of "And the stuff". The hands of men are in the commentaries of the Qur'an. How do you know that these men are correct? Most Mulsims cannot read the original dialect, very few I understand. I have seen many Muslims argue about the meaning of some of the ayas.

You don't even have any copy of the original texts in Aramaic and Hebrew. You can't even read Greek or Koine Greek and discuss only basing on what you have been told in English. Even then the English is not clear either.

1.2 billion Muslims believe only in the One God Almighty with all their hearts, all their minds and all their souls. That is what matters most. Those who know Qur'aan can teach others. You may ask me any verse and I will explain to you.

You can see "the hand of this man" when I write any commentary at your request but the message of God Almighty will remain the same, Annie!

"Paul's letters were to specific churches in response to their specific needs or concerns."

What are the chances that each individual church would have the same exact needs?

As you can read, the wording in each letter is almost identical. Also, it is known that Paul's letter to Ephesus was sent to all of the churches near Ephesus. Why would Paul send a letter addressing the specific concerns of the church at Ephesus to all of the surrounding churches if the letter held no meaning for them?

I Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. was in the transgression.

I Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

I Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)

You know, while looking over Mishmish's post above me, I came to another question.

Why is it in Jewish Synagogues and Mosques, women must sit apart from the men? So much so in Mosques that there is a screen put between them so neither sex can see the other. But, in Christian Churches, the women set with the men without any separation?

Perhaps doctrinally Christians are NO DIFFERENT than Jews and Muslims in the division of women and men, yet we do not practice it?

Or is it that all three faiths have their issues with equality????

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Both of these verses indicate to me that God has decreed the man to be the head of the household. He is to be the provider and spiritual guide to the family. So, why is it wrong for Paul to demand women submit to their husbands when the Quran and Hadiths give men the power over their women and the choice to give them power over themselves.

Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that Abdullah ibn Umar and Abu Hurayra were asked about a man who gave his wife power over herself, and she returned it to him without doing anything with it. They said that there was no divorce. (i.e. The man's giving his wife power over herself was not interpreted as a desire for divorce on his part.)

Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that Said ibn al-Musayyab said, "If a man gives his wife authority over herself, and she does not separate from him and remains with him, there is no divorce."

Malik said that a woman whose husband gave her power over herself and they separated while she was unwilling, had no power to revoke the divorce. She only had power over herself as long as they remained together.

At the time of the Prophet men and women prayed in the same room, but the women prayed behind the men and children. This was because we bend and prostrate and it was believed, rightfully so no doubt, that this sight would be a distraction for men. There was not a separate room in the mosque for women. In many countries this is still the case.

Men are the maintainers of women and should be the head of the household. This doesn't mean that they are superior to women or that women should not be treated equally. Men and women are just responsible for different things. I should say they are supposed to be responsible for different things. Unfortunately many men have chosen not to accept their responsiblities, so women have become responsible for all instead of half.

This whole conversation started because of remarks made about Muslim women being oppressed and compulsion in religion. I quoted these verses to show that in the Christian scriptures women were ordered to be submissive. Much more so than in the Quran, which actually spells out womens rights. The fact that Christians no longer follow this does not mean that it wasn't written. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of Christians calling Muslim women oppressed when in the scriptures Christian women actually have less rights than Muslim women.

Of course, then we got off on the: well that's what is written but not what it means, conversation...

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)

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