Okay, then does "starting another argument" suit this better? Gosh, no need to be so melodramatic.

Let's face it, High elves were always supposed to go to the Alliance. Neutrality is something that can help with that, and there's no real reason not to go this route other than, "they're the horde's race now, and they're not going back . . . whine, whine, whine." Does it really matter? At least it's sensical unlike Draenei crossing over to the Horde.

Blood elves were the most played race on the Horde due to them being able to role paladins. I would also argue that a lot of people like High elves anyway, and Blood elves are the only way to actually play a race similar to them (similar as in looks, not motives or faction).

RPG, lore-book, guide, game statistics or not, population shouldn't matter when discussing a new race. That has nothing to do with the creation of races as evidence by Gnomes, Trolls, Pandaren, etc. Even the Pandaren we play as come from a school on the Wandering Isle. Also, the High elves hold numbers in Quel'Danil Lodge, Quel'Lithien, Stromwind (the city with the most High elves inhabiting it), Dalaran (being the second most populous), and Theramore (they take two out of the seven seats on the ruling council that advises Lady Jaina and play a key role in the governing Theramore). So again, your argument on the mater of population is moot.

And does a race need to hold a niche to be viable? What would the Ogres, a race that Metzen personally wants to see as a playable race, niche be? Brutish race? Orcs. Potentially evil race? Undead. Greedy money-grubbing race? Goblins. Peaceful race? Tauren. Ugly race? Troll, Orc, Undead. Pretty race? Blood elves. The only niche I could see would be the stupid race, and that doesn't even work since Ogre Magi are smart. So no, that's just an illogical argument with no argument behind it other than what a person makes out of it.

Also, stop calling the High elves a dead race considering they have a higher population than other playable races. You might as well call the Trolls and the Gnomes dead races as well.

It seems so. I wasn't even trying to argue; I was just giving my opinion.

If High Elves were always supposed to have gone Alliance, they'd have gone Alliance. Period. The fact that they haven't sort of implies otherwise. I'm sorry it contravened your notion of what a traditional fantasy line up should be.

Blood Elves are popular because they are the one pretty race the Horde has, although the ability to be Paladins did boost their numbers a bit at the beginning but you'll find not every Blood Elf is a Paladin.

Population probably shouldn't be raised as an issue, except it is the reason a Blizzard blue post gave a few years back when explaining why they weren't playable. So forgive me, but I AM going to use the one blue post on this topic as evidence, especially when it agrees with me. As for your centers of High Elf population, have you even been to Quel'lithien Lodge recently? Quick update, they're all dead. Quel'Danil is exactly what it says it is. A lodge. A HANDFUL of High Elves shivering out in the middle of nowhere. In game there are extremely few High Elves in Stormwind. To mind I can think of one. Nor has any canon material confirmed the presence of a large population. Stormwind must be discounted. And you actually mentioned Theramore. Oh my. Theramore is a crater. If there was a substantial High Elf population there, they are now pretty dead too. As for 'two of the seven seats on the council', thats the rpg again. I said that has been confirmed as non canon. Please fact check properly.

Dalaran actually IS the most populous center for the High Elves, but here they play a sub-ordinate roll within a Human Kingdom. An important role, but still subordinate to the Humans. How many High Elves sit on the council of six? None. Zero. Zip. Even the Blood Elves had a seat there till recently.

You're right about the Ogres though. They serve no niche within the Horde that hasn't already been filled. The Alliance though. They'd fit really well with the Alliance if the storyline was written correctly. It could be considered payback for the Elves going Horde.

And you're right, they're not a dead race. 90% of this race just switched sides. Would nearly dead faction be acceptable?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Mokaproductionist

I'm starting to believe the whole subject it cursed.

Well every time someone suggests a new race, High Elves inevitably are mentioned. So I drop a line (or as it turns out a paragraph or two) explaining why I don't think it will happen because I don't want anyone to believe that High Elves would be an uncontroversial choice.

If High Elves were always supposed to have gone Alliance, they'd have gone Alliance. Period. The fact that they haven't sort of implies otherwise. I'm sorry it contravened your notion of what a traditional fantasy line up should be.

Blood Elves are popular because they are the one pretty race the Horde has, although the ability to be Paladins did boost their numbers a bit at the beginning but you'll find not every Blood Elf is a Paladin.

Population probably shouldn't be raised as an issue, except it is the reason a Blizzard blue post gave a few years back when explaining why they weren't playable. So forgive me, but I AM going to use the one blue post on this topic as evidence, especially when it agrees with me. As for your centers of High Elf population, have you even been to Quel'lithien Lodge recently? Quick update, they're all dead. Quel'Danil is exactly what it says it is. A lodge. A HANDFUL of High Elves shivering out in the middle of nowhere. In game there are extremely few High Elves in Stormwind. To mind I can think of one. Nor has any canon material confirmed the presence of a large population. Stormwind must be discounted. And you actually mentioned Theramore. Oh my. Theramore is a crater. If there was a substantial High Elf population there, they are now pretty dead too. As for 'two of the seven seats on the council', thats the rpg again. I said that has been confirmed as non canon. Please fact check properly.

Dalaran actually IS the most populous center for the High Elves, but here they play a sub-ordinate roll within a Human Kingdom. An important role, but still subordinate to the Humans. How many High Elves sit on the council of six? None. Zero. Zip. Even the Blood Elves had a seat there till recently.

You're right about the Ogres though. They serve no niche within the Horde that hasn't already been filled. The Alliance though. They'd fit really well with the Alliance if the storyline was written correctly. It could be considered payback for the Elves going Horde.

And you're right, they're not a dead race. 90% of this race just switched sides. Would nearly dead faction be acceptable?

- - - Updated - - -

Well every time someone suggests a new race, High Elves inevitably are mentioned. So I drop a line (or as it turns out a paragraph or two) explaining why I don't think it will happen because I don't want anyone to believe that High Elves would be an uncontroversial choice.

And then it goes from there.

It didn't "contravene" my notion. I'm just emulating the outrageousness of your notion that the sole reason for the Horde's increase of players was mainly due to the fact that Blood elves were introduced as the "pretty race" when it was mostly because they were the only race to have pallys. While Blood elves are the pretty race of the Horde, the number one class played on the Horde side is tied with Hunters and Paladins. Without the Blood elves' introduction to the Horde, they probably wouldn't have allowed Paladins on the Horde at all; or at least not without another retcon by Blizz.

ONE blue post isn't the be all end all of anything. ONE blue poster said he didn't like the idea of neutral races, but again, that doesn't mean we'll only see Pandaren as the only neutral race.

So since Quel'Danil is a lodge, can we just expect any other lodge to be full of any race that is stationed there as just "shivering out in the middle of nowhere?" There are actual quests at this OUTPOST I may add. And while Theramore is a crater, it was home to many High elves, and still, no other sources claim that High elves are all but extinct. And while non-canon, we have no other source to verify what the population is, and we have nothing to disprove the non-canonical sources other than the fact that it's non-canonical. How can I fact check when there's nothing to fact check? So if there is nothing to fact check, how do we not know that Stormwind isn't the home to the most High elves on Azeroth and that Dalaran is? High elves are a scattered race, of course, and with Metzen confirming the return of Alleria, the High elves (ones that may even be hiding somewhere in the neck of the woods) could be reorganized under her leadership!

And, one High elf in particular did sit upon the council of six (Kael'Thas), so the idea isn't entirely impossible to put a High elf on there.

Ogres on the Alliance doesn't even make sense. They have fought alongside the Horde since Warcraft. High elves, at least, are actually a part of the Alliance already.

You mean 9%? Only 10% of the race was left after the Scourge invasion.

And why shouldn't you expect High elves to be mentioned in a "Your Opinion On Playable Races" thread? High elves are popular among the fanbase.

EDIT: Also, my idea on removing the Blood elves from the Horde, replacing them with Ogres, and making High elves neutral (with a whole starting zone involved during the Scourge Invasion) is that horrible? There will still be Blood elves, the ones that want them will get High elves, and Metzen's dream of making Ogres playable will be fulfilled. I also forgot to mention that there are High elves at Allerian Stronghold and Shattrath City.

It didn't "contravene" my notion. I'm just emulating the outrageousness of your notion that the sole reason for the Horde's increase of players was mainly due to the fact that Blood elves were introduced as the "pretty race" when it was mostly because they were the only race to have pallys. While Blood elves are the pretty race of the Horde, the number one class played on the Horde side is tied with Hunters and Paladins. Without the Blood elves' introduction to the Horde, they probably wouldn't have allowed Paladins on the Horde at all; or at least not without another retcon by Blizz.

The vast majority of Blood Elves are not Paladins though. I didn't state it was the sole reason either, I said it was the primary reason. Like it or not, people want to play Human like races in the West and the Horde lacked a race that filled that niche prior to the burning crusade.

Originally Posted by cmats4020

ONE blue post isn't the be all end all of anything. ONE blue poster said he didn't like the idea of neutral races, but again, that doesn't mean we'll only see Pandaren as the only neutral race.

While one blue post isn't the be all and end all, it's the only blue post on the potential playability of High Elves. Of course I'm going to use the only official statement on this matter, especially when it agrees me.

Originally Posted by cmats4020

So since Quel'Danil is a lodge, can we just expect any other lodge to be full of any race that is stationed there as just "shivering out in the middle of nowhere?" There are actual quests at this OUTPOST I may add. And while Theramore is a crater, it was home to many High elves, and still, no other sources claim that High elves are all but extinct. And while non-canon, we have no other source to verify what the population is, and we have nothing to disprove the non-canonical sources other than the fact that it's non-canonical. How can I fact check when there's nothing to fact check? So if there is nothing to fact check, how do we not know that Stormwind isn't the home to the most High elves on Azeroth and that Dalaran is? High elves are a scattered race, of course, and with Metzen confirming the return of Alleria, the High elves (ones that may even be hiding somewhere in the neck of the woods) could be reorganized under her leadership!

As for Quel'Danil, yes, the Elves are 'shivering out in the middle of nowhere'. The few Elves there have had to make it their home, unlike other races such as Dwarves or Gnomes who could finish their business and return to Ironforge or New Tinkertown. The small bands of High Elves eke out an existence around that lodge.
And what does it matter that they offer quests? There are small outposts all over the game with maybe one or two NPCs and they offer some quests too! Utterly irrelevant point.

In relation to the whole fact checking business, if you want to know how, use your eyes. Go through Stormwind and count how many High Elf NPCs you come across. If Blizzard intended it to be a major High Elf center then there should be quite a few High Elf NPCs wandering about in the background. I did a quick count of named High Elf NPCs. I found three out of the hundreds of NPCs in Stormwind. One of those is simply a representative of the Silver Covenant related to Wintergrasp so doesn't really count.
Conversely Dalaran seems to have quite a few High Elves wandering about. Of course, they are all Silver Covenant. And as we never see High Elves anywhere else in game in such numbers, it's as close to canon as you can possibly get to say that the Silver Covenant is both the largest concentration of High Elves and the most organised High Elf faction on Azeroth left.

Finally, about potential High Elves in hiding reorganizing under the leadership of Alleria, you're starting to sound like Northem. The vast majority of the remaining High Elves, and that's still a small fraction, are in the Silver Covenant under the leadership of Vereesa. And they aren't big enough to stand in the Alliance by themselves, they are regarded as being a small part of the Human Dalaran faction.

Originally Posted by cmats4020

And, one High elf in particular did sit upon the council of six (Kael'Thas), so the idea isn't entirely impossible to put a High elf on there.

My point wasn't that it was impossible for a High Elf to sit there. You pointed out Kael used to be there after all, though I must question the wisdom of using the elf who founded the Blood Elves as your example. What I meant was recently there have been no High Elves on the Council of Six. They just do not have the influence within Dalaran to justify it. And Dalaran is where all signs point to them having at least some decent numbers.

Originally Posted by cmats4020

Ogres on the Alliance doesn't even make sense. They have fought alongside the Horde since Warcraft. High elves, at least, are actually a part of the Alliance already.

As for Ogres on the Alliance, some would point out that Elves on the Horde would have made as little sense ten years ago. If you read the lore, you discover that the Ogres and Orcs hate each other and warred for generations. Bringing them into the original Horde was a massive shock for a lot of Orcs. The Stonemaul clan currently part of the Horde is a bit of an aberration, it's explained in a Warcraft three the frozen throne mission. But it's only a thought. Frankly there's not exactly a huge Horde desire for Ogres. Or a huge Alliance desire for Ogres. But if they had to be added, a good story could explain it if they wanted them to be on the Alliance side.

Originally Posted by cmats4020

You mean 9%? Only 10% of the race was left after the Scourge invasion.

Obviously I was talking about the survivors. 90% of the High Elves died. Of the surviving 10%, 9% converted to be Blood Elves and 1% stayed High Elf. That 1% has suffered several blows in recent years, notably the destruction of Theramore where there was a small community and the destruction of the Quel'lithien lodge so that population has shrunk in recent years. The 9% population that comprise the Blood Elves is comparable to the Trolls and Gnomes in terms of population. If you think that the High Elves have more numbers than the Darkspear Trolls or Gnomes, then there are over ten times as many Blood Elves as there are Darkspear Trolls or Gnomes, which is plain ridiculous. If the Blood Elf numbers are comparable, and all the signs point to the fact that they are, then you may at last start to get a sense of just how depleted the High Elf population is.

Originally Posted by cmats4020

And why shouldn't you expect High elves to be mentioned in a "Your Opinion On Playable Races" thread? High elves are popular among the fanbase.

And of course I expect High Elves to be mentioned in threads like these. They always are. I just feel I need to rebut the suggestion, as is my right. I don't want to diminish the faction walls any further, and adding what will be seen by the majority as a Horde race to the Alliance goes way too far in that direction. I especially dislike Alliance players clamoring for the option to play what happens to be the most popular race on my faction simply because they don't want to be Horde. My answer to that is an unequivocal 'tough'.

Originally Posted by cmats4020

EDIT: Also, my idea on removing the Blood elves from the Horde, replacing them with Ogres, and making High elves neutral (with a whole starting zone involved during the Scourge Invasion) is that horrible? There will still be Blood elves, the ones that want them will get High elves, and Metzen's dream of making Ogres playable will be fulfilled. I also forgot to mention that there are High elves at Allerian Stronghold and Shattrath City.

Yes it is that horrible. REMOVING Blood Elves from the Horde? How selfish is that? You want to affect a fundamental change in my faction for your own pettyinterests. You want to jettison perfectly good Horde starting zones to accomodate this, or have them significantly reworked, simply so that you get to be a pretty elf blue side (you already have a pretty elf race blue side. They're blue, how fitting). Have you even played over the course of Mists of Pandaria? Blizzard has been moving in the opposite direction with the Blood Elves. Far from leaving the Horde, the Blood Elves have now been CEMENTED within it. If Metzen is that intent on making Ogres playable, he'll find a way to do so that involves less bat shit crazy measures as the one you suggested. And that's the only way to describe that idea, it's nuts. Perfectly good starting content jettisoned, a brand new starting experience for an already existing race and all to facilitate the selfish desires of a tiny minority who don't care what sort of train they drive through the story or the game's image.

For the vast majority of players the reaction from the Horde (50% of players) would be annoyance and upset that the Alliance gets access to one of our races. The Alliance would be equally upset as they'd be getting a cast off Horde race. And there would be a mighty backlash that would make the QQ over the Pandaren seem trivial, with people accusing Blizzard of running out of ideas or being just lazy.

And as a final point.

My god that's a terrible, terrible,stupid, loathsome, petty, selfish, small-minded idea about removing Blood Elves from the Horde. My god it's dumb. I know I said all that earlier but it is just so staggeringly awful it needs to be curb-stomped repeatedly.

The vast majority of Blood Elves are not Paladins though. I didn't state it was the sole reason either, I said it was the primary reason. Like it or not, people want to play Human like races in the West and the Horde lacked a race that filled that niche prior to the burning crusade.

But the majority of pallys on the Horde side are Blood elves. I never denied that Blood elves are popular due to the fact that they're pretty, but the sole reason a majority used them was because they were originally the only race to have pallys on the Horde side.

Originally Posted by rumaya2000

As for Quel'Danil, yes, the Elves are 'shivering out in the middle of nowhere'. The few Elves there have had to make it their home, unlike other races such as Dwarves or Gnomes who could finish their business and return to Ironforge or New Tinkertown. The small bands of High Elves eke out an existence around that lodge.
And what does it matter that they offer quests? There are small outposts all over the game with maybe one or two NPCs and they offer some quests too! Utterly irrelevant point.

You realize that the High elves ARE a part of the Alliance, right? They could return to Stormwind, but are probably stationed there. And your description made it seemed like the elves residing at the lodge were going to resort to cannibalism because of their entrapped-like state; that's why I mentioned the quests involved there.

Originally Posted by rumaya2000

In relation to the whole fact checking business, if you want to know how, use your eyes. Go through Stormwind and count how many High Elf NPCs you come across. If Blizzard intended it to be a major High Elf center then there should be quite a few High Elf NPCs wandering about in the background. I did a quick count of named High Elf NPCs. I found three out of the hundreds of NPCs in Stormwind. One of those is simply a representative of the Silver Covenant related to Wintergrasp so doesn't really count.
Conversely Dalaran seems to have quite a few High Elves wandering about. Of course, they are all Silver Covenant. And as we never see High Elves anywhere else in game in such numbers, it's as close to canon as you can possibly get to say that the Silver Covenant is both the largest concentration of High Elves and the most organised High Elf faction on Azeroth left.

Finally, about potential High Elves in hiding reorganizing under the leadership of Alleria, you're starting to sound like Northem. The vast majority of the remaining High Elves, and that's still a small fraction, are in the Silver Covenant under the leadership of Vereesa. And they aren't big enough to stand in the Alliance by themselves, they are regarded as being a small part of the Human Dalaran faction.

Again, we don't even know since there aren't any canonical facts regarding their population. You can't say anything with a basis behind it, as of now, regarding how small or large their population really is.

Originally Posted by rumaya2000

As for Ogres on the Alliance, some would point out that Elves on the Horde would have made as little sense ten years ago. If you read the lore, you discover that the Ogres and Orcs hate each other and warred for generations. Bringing them into the original Horde was a massive shock for a lot of Orcs. The Stonemaul clan currently part of the Horde is a bit of an aberration, it's explained in a Warcraft three the frozen throne mission. But it's only a thought. Frankly there's not exactly a huge Horde desire for Ogres. Or a huge Alliance desire for Ogres. But if they had to be added, a good story could explain it if they wanted them to be on the Alliance side.

And if you read the lore, you would discover that despite this hatred, they interbred as well. Ogreas aren't really uncommon for the current generation of Horde members, and the Stonemaul clan rejoined the Horde during the Third War.

Originally Posted by rumaya2000

Obviously I was talking about the survivors. 90% of the High Elves died. Of the surviving 10%, 9% converted to be Blood Elves and 1% stayed High Elf. That 1% has suffered several blows in recent years, notably the destruction of Theramore where there was a small community and the destruction of the Quel'lithien lodge so that population has shrunk in recent years. The 9% population that comprise the Blood Elves is comparable to the Trolls and Gnomes in terms of population. If you think that the High Elves have more numbers than the Darkspear Trolls or Gnomes, then there are over ten times as many Blood Elves as there are Darkspear Trolls or Gnomes, which is plain ridiculous. If the Blood Elf numbers are comparable, and all the signs point to the fact that they are, then you may at last start to get a sense of just how depleted the High Elf population is.

Well, again, we can't really argue on actual population, now can we?

Originally Posted by rumaya2000

And of course I expect High Elves to be mentioned in threads like these. They always are. I just feel I need to rebut the suggestion, as is my right. I don't want to diminish the faction walls any further, and adding what will be seen by the majority as a Horde race to the Alliance goes way too far in that direction. I especially dislike Alliance players clamoring for the option to play what happens to be the most popular race on my faction simply because they don't want to be Horde. My answer to that is an unequivocal 'tough'.

It's your right to rebut the notion of a playable High elf race, or just the wanting to start another argument?

Originally Posted by rumaya2000

Yes it is that horrible. REMOVING Blood Elves from the Horde? How selfish is that? You want to affect a fundamental change in my faction for your own pettyinterests. You want to jettison perfectly good Horde starting zones to accomodate this, or have them significantly reworked, simply so that you get to be a pretty elf blue side (you already have a pretty elf race blue side. They're blue, how fitting). Have you even played over the course of Mists of Pandaria? Blizzard has been moving in the opposite direction with the Blood Elves. Far from leaving the Horde, the Blood Elves have now been CEMENTED within it. If Metzen is that intent on making Ogres playable, he'll find a way to do so that involves less bat shit crazy measures as the one you suggested. And that's the only way to describe that idea, it's nuts. Perfectly good starting content jettisoned, a brand new starting experience for an already existing race and all to facilitate the selfish desires of a tiny minority who don't care what sort of train they drive through the story or the game's image.

For the vast majority of players the reaction from the Horde (50% of players) would be annoyance and upset that the Alliance gets access to one of our races. The Alliance would be equally upset as they'd be getting a cast off Horde race. And there would be a mighty backlash that would make the QQ over the Pandaren seem trivial, with people accusing Blizzard of running out of ideas or being just lazy.

And as a final point.

My god that's a terrible, terrible,stupid, loathsome, petty, selfish, small-minded idea about removing Blood Elves from the Horde. My god it's dumb. I know I said all that earlier but it is just so staggeringly awful it needs to be curb-stomped repeatedly.

Wow, melodramatic and childish. How cute.

Anyways, I never said we'd be removing Blood elves, just make them like the Pandaren in the sense that they are neutral and would be able to choose a side. I think some people would like to relive the Invasion of the Scourge, and this is a way we can do that. If this doesn't work, than why not make sub races? Seriously, your making it into way too big of a deal. And you call me small-minded. You can't even open up to a moderate discussion without rebutting like a 10-year old. Sheesh.

Again, we don't even know since there aren't any canonical facts regarding their population. You can't say anything with a basis behind it, as of now, regarding how small or large their population really is.

We can infer. The Blood Elves are a people pushed to extinction, like the other races 'pushed to extinction'. If the High Elf population is not even a tenth of the Blood Elf population, it stands to reason their numbers are exceptionally small. Especially considering the destruction of a lodge and the annhilation of Theramore. This is a reasoned argument, reliant upon observations in game and canon sources, rather than plucking faux numbers from the defunct rpg and basing my entire argument on that.

Originally Posted by cmats4020

Wow, melodramatic and childish. How cute.

Anyways, I never said we'd be removing Blood elves, just make them like the Pandaren in the sense that they are neutral and would be able to choose a side. I think some people would like to relive the Invasion of the Scourge, and this is a way we can do that. If this doesn't work, than why not make sub races? Seriously, your making it into way too big of a deal. And you call me small-minded. You can't even open up to a moderate discussion without rebutting like a 10-year old. Sheesh.

Your idea is drivel and I'm just being frank and telling you it's drivel. You've even opened a new thread dedicated exclusively to discussing it but I've given you my opinion here. It's terrible. Even Northem's Greenwood fiction is better and that is saying something.
Blizzard isn't going to make a race that currently belongs to a faction neutral just because you wish they would. If they want to relive the scourge invasion, they will make a caverns of time instance that has greater relevance to the current story rather than as a leveling experience. This isn't about just giving Alliance players access to a pretty elf model because they cannot stand the Horde. There will be a substantial impact on faction character as a result, a cheapening of the Blood Elves so to speak if they are made cross faction. Not to mention this will mean that the Blood Elves get MORE substantial story time as a result, and that this will come at the expense of the already existing Alliance races who seem to be perennially ignored. I am sure Alliance story buffs will be thrilled that so much effort will be devoted to yet more blood elf/high elf shenanigans, because that is a story people want to see. I mean the last time we saw it was just a few months ago in 5.2. We need more!

You don't strike me as someone who has his finger on the pulse of the game right now. I mean, you listed Theramore as a big High Elf population center when it's a hole in the ground now and has been for a year. Quel'lithien Lodge has been a wreck for nearly three years, yet you listed it. And then you used bunk rpg numbers to support your claims. How can anyone take your opinions on this issue seriously when it's clear you've not really thought it through and seemingly just want High Elves for the Alliance no matter how little sense you've made.

As for sub-races, how are High Elves a sub-race of any Alliance race? And if you say Humans because they live in such large numbers in Stormwind then to me that is tantamount to losing the argument. They don't live in Stormwind in any great numbers. There is no proof they live in Stormwind in any great numbers. It's the proverbial straw you're grasping at, a legacy of a throw away line in the RPG which as I keep saying is not canon.