Please, I don't want to start a fight here. I think the best thing for me to do is simply to withdraw my post of the Études.

We'll have no fight here.

Maybe you should not post them in the Audition Room (which is for submissions for the site) but in another section, with a clear explanation about what thepurpose of these is (demo tracks for Vienna Symphonic Library) and how they were created. Not mentioning these things doesn't help, because we will find out anyway.

Please, I don't want to start a fight here. I think the best thing for me to do is simply to withdraw my post of the Études.

We'll have no fight here.

Maybe you should not post them in the Audition Room (which is for submissions for the site) but in another section, with a clear explanation about what thepurpose of these is (demo tracks for Vienna Symphonic Library) and how they were created. Not mentioning these things doesn't help, because we will find out anyway.

Yes, we have secret spies everywhere!

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

That's the thing....Your subject heading is Chopin's 24 Etudes My interpretation. Yes, we very quickly figured out how these recordings were produced, and my contention is with your word 'interpretation'. Maybe your mind came up with how you wanted to interpret the music, but you used your computer to generate that interpretation, not your own fingers. That's why I think it is cheating. I hope that makes sense....

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

I'm sorry, Guy, but I just can't help it; the more I think about this issue, the madder I get! It's not fair for someone to call themselves a pianist and upload a bunch of technology-produced music onto the Internet where some people may not realize that the music is artificial and think that the player actually played ALL of the pieces in a particular set. You are a fine composer, but the only way I will ever concede that you are also a fine pianist is to see videos of you playing ALL these etudes.

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

Though really, this is not about whether Guy is a fine pianist or not.

It's about whether we want (or appreciate) digitally manipulated music on this site. We don't, and anybody who digs a bit in the archives should soon enough know that. When recordings are manipulated on a note-by-note basis, it does not even matter much anymore whether there were fingers on keys involved.It's just not our idea of making music. Maybe we should be stronger in stating this in the documentation such as we have.

Wow! What a friendly place! I thought most of you lot died out with the dinosaurs. What a shame you didn't, because history is littered, nay, infected by feeble-minded clowns like yourselves. And history invariably removes them from distinction.

So, Guy told me about his wonderful DIGITAL renditions of the Chopin works: can I say works, or do I have to have a certain amount of music degrees to even talk about "works" ? Presumably you've all got DVD players, and are communicating on this forum by purely digital means, right? My God the hypocrisy of your tawdry, elitist little forum smells bad from where I'm typing ( in a virtual bunker, somewhere off the Death Star, in a galaxy far,far away ).

So, here in the unspeakable and unacceptable nether regions of the e-world, can I immediately say that Mr. Bacos, in no way, shape or form, encouraged me to join in this pathetic, inconsequential community of nobodies, who like to think they are somebodies. Never of heard of any of you, actually. Ummm pianolady: you wouldn't be related to Elton John would you? Your appraisal about interpretation makes you, I would guess, about 220 years old, am I right? If you know your history, which you clearly don't ( or you are foolishly choosing to ignore it to promote your dumb argument ) you will realise that the pianoforte,when it first came on the scene was laughed at and was shunned by the equivalent to the cobweb-encrusted fools that are mouldering in this daft little internet backwater. I could explain, with great precision, why you are so hilariously WRONG in your appraisal of what constitutes a real performance, but it would obviously go right over you tiny head. Are you sure you're not related to Elton John?

And "techneut": wow, what kind of musical term is that? Are you a DJ or something? MC Techneut. Sounds really sick, I think is the oxymoronic term for it. You weren't not too sharp to see your cheap insult about wetsuits being roundly turned on its metaphorical head and bite you on the posterior, were we? Mr. Synergy makes some coherent and clever points about the use of technology as a communication tool , IN THE 21st CENTURY, and you come back with a childish jibe about his pseudonym.See, life in the cyberworld of forums and e-communication is full of nasty, vicious reptiles, like ME! If you try to get smart, I'll bite you so hard, you'll have to go to the nearest e-clinic, and you'll not be DJ-ing for while,lol! See: Lol: Laughs Out Loud.... Geddit?! It's an internet acronym.... forgeddit.

While we're at it, MC Techneut said:"I am a programmer and IT guy myself, and I understand that new technology is attractive to many people. But if this is the future of piano playing, I feel sad. It is like watching these movies where you don't know if anything you see is real or not, or looking at airbrushed models with skins like the finest quality paper. I may be getting old but all this technology applied to art disgusts me. I'll have the warts, moles and scars any time......" sic Do you actually realise that you have the mind of a small pea, coming up with utter nonsense like that? You call yourself an " IT guy" ( what's that: Interesting Italian? ), yet eschew technology as a tool for expressing art. Actually you, and your anachronistic cronies, who delude themselves in thinking that they know better (doing a bad job thus far,dude ), are on the verge of a merciful extinction. No-one will know anything about you in a couple of weeks, let alone a couple of decades, if you're not already languishing in oblivion. And, oh, MC Techneut, don't get all clever and quasi- philosophical on us, talking about watching movies where you ( should be "one" BAD English, MC ) don't know what is real or not. Ummm, sorry to wake you up, but NONE OF IT IS REAL ! IT'S A MOVIE! That's what movies are: unreality, expressing reality. You see, Eisenstein said.....ah forget it. You wouldn't understand. So, when you listen you a RECORDING of a piano performance by Rubenstein ( guess you don't ), that must be so hard for you to take, right? 'Cos it's not real!!!! Get over the shock, man! Life isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Anyway, I digress. I have absolutely no agenda, here, expect to exterminate all musical idiots, and this place is infested with them, like nasty 'roaches. Mr. Bacos straddles two worlds with admirable virtuosity. One, as a very fine pianist; the other, in my view, as an even finer composer, who shows the utmost integrity and passion for his craft, be it the interpreting of others' music, or the rendering of his own. You lot, on the other hand, are a bunch of ossified, myopic snobs, who have failed miserably to show even some historical knowledge of the field of expertise you claim to be ,er, expert in. Viz: regarding the place of progressive use of technology and its role in the arts.

So, fellow intelligentsia, bring it on: I will slay you all, one by one. I know I will be banned from your silly little community, so I have one parting thing to say: BOO!

Last edited by michaelv on Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

So are you saying because not 100% of the musicality came directly from my finger, it changes everything?

It does for me.

I'm quite comfortable with that because from what I see so far, all the negative things came from people who did not digest being deceived or the fact that it's possibly manipulated and they see this as cheating etc... but just on the basis of the listening, the experience is very successful and for me that's what counts. I can't control how different groups feel about the way this was done.

But Guy, you are totally unknown personally (as I am) to PS and wish to present yourself as a fabulously accomplished pianist. Maybe you are, I just don't know this. I would love for this to be all cleared up with some video of you performing. Then we could get on to more praise and admiration. I must say, however, that the sudden presence on PS of two new people today, who are taking up your banner without hesitation (seeing that the Administrators are bothered by something) is highly suspicious to me.

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

Guy, I have heard your samples on the VSL site years ago. As a virtual instrument for MIDI sources, the Vienna Imperial in these set of Etudes is the best piano sample I've heard in the current arsenal of electronic "Classical Pianos." I tend to be fussy to the color of sound, especially when it comes to tonality and timbre. To nit pick, the sound is a tad constrained dynamically; slightly dry, and with a boomy EQ bias. However, VSL's sound chain of mics, preamps, consoles, A/D, and the mastering of final sound, are world class compared with the competition. Overall, would I buy it as a piano virtual instrument (VI)? Yes, as it's the best sounding electronic piano for my taste to date compared to Ivory, Garratan Steinway, PianoTeq, etc.

I regret not taking the opportunity to study the organ, so the closest I'll be able to come to realistically playing the organ is in a virtual instrument capacity in my music studio. As a result, I've added to my collection of VI, the Vienna Sound Library Konzerthaus Organ, a great 24-bit sampled library of the great Rieger Organ in Vienna. I've been to St. Stephen's Cathedral, and when I heard a few samples on the site, and I was hooked. Even though the timbre has a digital edge when many stops are open, a fine analog tube preamp in the signal chain can warm the glassy highs rendering a very close approximation to the real organ. Someday when I have the time, I hope to do more composing and scoring in the VI realm with instrumental and choral works...

As best as can be achieved through digital reproduction methods, the Chopin Etudes are splendid. Interpretively and musically, it's obvious that you're a pianist, because you can't duplicate rubato and dynamic ranges with MIDI. In this regard, it's easier to be a pianist than a trained MIDI technician. Technically, however, I won't comment because MIDI has full control over tempo, notes, and all that we associate with the technical fortitude of playing an Etude. In this regard, it's easier to be a MIDI technician than a pianist. Perhaps the unrest in this thread stems from the lack of disclosure from the outset. It's understandable. In an age of digital piracy, regulation, royalties, rights, etc., the issue of legitimacy of performance is a hot topic in the digital age of MIDI. However, for the purposes of showcasing the possibilities of the VSL product, it is a commanding example of the possibilities and potential that can be achieved with this fine product. 50GB is enormous engine!

The technology quest is improving. Many film and music media outlets "outsource" this kind of technology for expediency - cheap, fast, easy, less liability. I won't place a percentage, but this technology is keeps getting better as it tries to near the direct acoustic performance. All too often, virtual instruments still sound alien at best. Even the best reverb units are guilty of this. When it comes to electronic devices, we can only emulate, and keep emulating, driving costs up to high heaven... At the end, for the human psychoacoustic perception of music, there is no substitute for any acoustic instrument that is played in a fine concert hall. Period!

DISCLAIMER:Digital vs Analog; Digital vs Acoustic; Digital vs Film; etc... Clearly technology is outpacing fine art and the court of law as the standards for digital acceptance in the fine arts and legal circles is an ongoing debate. An artist can shade or highlight his paintings through his light source(s) - It's fine art. When Ansel Adams dodged and burned a print to bring about the similar contrasts in his final photograph from film, it took time, but we still ended up calling it fine art. When an artist dodges and burns a digital image in Photoshop, can the same level of reverence be implied to the final image with time? In my opinion, NO. Because acoustical instruments, as on the canvas and film, project the image or performance in a transparent manner directly to the viewer or listener. Computer integration of MIDI instruments provides the inter-stage between the performance and the listener where infinite levels of manipulative stages can alter the sound in terms of velocity (tempo), volume (cres/decres), and pitch (to correct wrong notes). I refer to these as intrinsic properties unique the the sound. Unless there is a way to watermark the original waveform, it's anyone's guess as to the legitimacy of the original performance and to the levels of manipulation in the final result. However, mastering is the exception to the debate as EQ, reverb, compression, mixing are accepted parameters for artistic rendering to a direct performance, and thus extrinsic properties of the sound.

When it comes to fine art, and or a submission of musical performance to the professional musical industry or jury (admission to competition and schools, including Piano Society), I am dubious of the legitimacy of ALL recordings made on "digital pianos." MIDI is a major disclaimer for me and that applies to improvisations, compositions, and performances of known composers. Even recordings that are posted here or anywhere else. As in currency, there has to be established standards for legitimacy for a digital piano with MIDI. I believe revealing the sound source or medium is important in the disclosure of fine art. The debate will continue.

That's interesting synergy543. Why does it say that you joined today (January 28, 2012) . BTW to be clear, I am not an administrator. I have no problem with enginered sound, but engineered performance submitted to this community (except for newly composed works being judged as compostitions) is basically fraud. I'm perplexed why anyone would think or support otherwise. There is a real reason why people pause at the mention of the names of the great pianists. I'm not interested in a performance that someone can create or manipulate with computer programs. It's like those pitch-correctors that some singers need to sound better than they can actually sing, or worse, those groups that did nothing but lip-sinc. Why would anyone argue in support of such fraud, especially vehemently or with vitriol? I see now that Guy gave us a big clue (and very subtle disclosure) when he subtitled his submission as "(My interpretation)." Of course that's what each of us do that submit recordings of our playing, but never have to declare the obvious since it's understood. Guy gave us a chance to understand what was going on but presumed (rightly in my case) that the auditors wouldn't catch on for some time.Oh, go practice!

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

@michaelv - Yes, I am 220 years old. And I look pretty damn hot for being so old, right? But you on the other hand must be a mere child, maybe 15 at the most, right? At least that's what your stupid-ass comments reflect. I bet you are really some dumb fat moron with no social life and can only get his kicks by slamming people on Internet forums. No matter, I will leave your comments up because they are amusing, but you are correct in assuming that you will not stick around here for long. That's because I have now banned you. Bye-bye

@And synergy - Your first posting on the forum is rude! Don't you think an introduction would have been nice? What's up with that? Come on, get a life and learn some manners! But really, you don't know what the hell you are talking about either, so why don't you just go away too. I'll wait a bit and see if you get any more annoying before you are also banned. Then again...now I think that I do recognize you from an earlier username. You were a pain in the ass then too.

@Guy - All I will say to you is that I'm a little hurt by all this. We never gave you a hard time before and the only thing we are guilty of is speaking our minds. We administrators get to choose how and what we host on our main site, which is basically that we wish to host recordings made in a quasi-traditional mode - basically an acoustic piano and a recorder - that's it. It's pretty simple and not a big secret by a long-shot. But now you are prancing about with these two newbies and it's like the three of you think you can tell us how to run Piano Society. You should have stated right from the beginning that your recordings were midi-produced. That would have prevented all this trouble!! Don't worry, this is the last thing I will say to you on this thread and anywhere else on the forum. I wish you well with your music, but that's it from me....

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

If there ever was an discussion for the wonderful Chopin Etudes, or even the nice Vienna Imperial, it sank along with the Concordia. This thread would have been a perfect opportunity to discuss the ongoing debate of digital vs acoustic piano. All I've heard are unwarranted personal insults to the forum and its moderators with no reason(s) to support any claim(s). I don't know if one should even respond to this kind of childishness, but I firmly believe that our moderators are truthful and back up their claims with facts and knowledge, without resorting to into personal attacks. No one has any intentions with any products nor sponsors here. Come on, Techneut a DJ? Pianolady a 220 year old relic? Far be it! Needless to say, Techneut, Pianolady, and musicalmd, are authoritative in their assessment and knowledge of music, far better than I or most musicians for that matter.

_________________"Nobility of spirit has more to do with simplicity than ostentation, wisdom rather than wealth, commitment rather than ambition." ~Riccardo Muti

I must say, however, that the sudden presence on PS of two new people today, who are taking up your banner without hesitation (seeing that the Administrators are bothered by something) is highly suspicious to me.

I thought the same, it is more than coincidence. I'd think they were the same person, if not for Michael calling the other one Greg. Apparently they know each other - maybe they're the board of the Bacos fanclub.

Best not to comment on michaelv's venomous rant, seeing as he's already been banned (but I guess it would have been pointless even if he hadn't). Amazing how people can be so full of anger, denying us the right to have an opinion on what is appropriate for this site and what isn't. I do wonder where that comes from. As for synergy, yes that name rings a bell now - and not a good one. I guess he may be banned soon, too, or else leave in a cloud of hot air. I can't resist once more quoting Kaikoshru Sorabji in saying “Insects that are merely noisome like to think that they can also sting.” (I would have loved that guy, a pig-headed sarcastic bastard like me )

guybacos wrote:

I know there is nothing I can say that will make these administrators think differently. It's as if it comes from the finger, it's music from God, but if you dare manipulate a single note it doesn't count as good music anymore. At least not on Piano Society Forum. This IS the rule here. Chris has said it! BTW Chris, didn't you say you didn't like the first part of Christmas Chimes i had written? But a few months later you were wondering how come you didn't like then because now you like it. Interesting how people change their minds sometimes.

Of course people change their minds, if there is new evidence or circumstances changed, or sometimes just because we are human. Or one grows to like something he did not quite like the first time. I don't see what is the problem with that. As for manipulating a single note, that would not be so bad. I do that (very) occasionally when I can't get the last note or chord as pianissimo as it should be. It's as far as I go, apart from cutting out mistakes or using multiple takes. Of course everybody draws their own line here.

guybacos wrote:

I agree, but overall I think the mods came out a bit old fashion, and I think that's how they would like to stay from what I understand.

Probably. And is there anything wrong with that ? We do not aspire to be a site promoting the latest digital technologies. Rather a site that tries to stick to traditional playing. Maybe we're fighting a losing battle, it will have to be seen.

And yes, the admins do emphatically stick together in this respect. This is not a pre-meditated policy, but happens naturally because we feel strongly, and in the same way, about what we want the site to be. For anybody who can't respect that, this is probably not the right place to be.

Guy, producing a video recording does not really change our perception of your Chopin project. I did not mean to insinuate that you can't play, you probably can. I just found it strange that a good pianist chooses to present himself only through a project like this. But that is your choice ! And presenting only 'traditional' recordings (insofar as there's a definition of this) is ourchoice. Let that be the end of it.

If you prefer I can put I'm a bad pianist. What would you like me to write that will make everybody happy? Tell me, and I will do that.

I can think of one thing.

Do. Not. Pretend.

This would not "make everybody happy", as we still do not like manipulated music, but could at least restore some of your credibility.Personally I'd leave it to others to decide if if I were a good pianist (after producing some plausible evidence).

Chris and Monica,Is it possible to expunge an entire thread? If so, no point preserving these skeletal remains. If not, I will be back to pick up these bones and discard them.

Expunge, I had to look that up Yes we could have ditched the whole thing. But it's sort of fun, isn't it ? You should see the behemoth thread that blossomed at Piano World in a day's time ! I felt things were kinda boring here so decided to unlock the thread again. Don't follow it if you don't want to !

OTOH, if you have some bones to pick (do I understand correctly ?) by all means do so

Chris and Monica,Is it possible to expunge an entire thread? If so, no point preserving these skeletal remains. If not, I will be back to pick up these bones and discard them.

Expunge, I had to look that up Yes we could have ditched the whole thing. But it's sort of fun, isn't it ? You should see the behemoth thread that blossomed at Piano World in a day's time ! I felt things were kinda boring here so decided to unlock the thread again. Don't follow it if you don't want to !

OTOH, if you have some bones to pick (do I understand correctly ?) by all means do so

I've noticed Chris puts on his good side when he posts on PianoStreet, must be intimidated.

Anyway, as I mentioned on PianoStreet, for me it is the best piano forum around.

And pianoLady, what a shame I wasted your dear precious time. So sorry!!!

I've noticed Chris puts on his good side when he posts on PianoStreet, must be intimidated.

Well, I'm an unknown newbie there and had no intention to start rubbing shoulders with the local bigshots. I only posted two short messages to try put in perspective some things that were said about what's been going on here at PS. On my best behavior, obviously.

guybacos wrote:

Anyway, as I mentioned on PianoStreet, for me it is the best piano forum around.

I can understand that. The place where you get the least flak is the place to be. Off ye go then !

Thanks, we'll try. It will be boring without you though.... If you start a new thread on Piano World I'll come and watch. It's mighty entertaining.That reminds me to check out all these kudos from concert pianists on your FB page

You make me feel like a star drawing all this attention to me, checking me everywhere I go, the forums I hang out, my FB wall. Of course, some will say, "get a life!", but that wouldn't be nice, would it?

I guess one of the problems for the listener is that once you start from the perspective that these are edited midis, albeit ones initiated by a pianist's performance, it doesn't take much imagination to realise that the performance doesn't have to be good, accurate, a tempo or anything. It can all be done by edit thereafter. Now I'm not intending to imply that the OP can't play the piano, nor that there has been wholescale dishonesty going on, but frankly a competent sightreader could play through many of the etudes at quarter to half-tempo and let the editing do the rest. 25/6 really isn't that hard at slow tempi - it only becomes difficult when you approach the required speed. 25/10 at slow tempo is trivial. That nagging doubt surely hangs over most listeners' perception of the project.

I guess one of the problems for the listener is that once you start from the perspective that these are edited midis, albeit ones initiated by a pianist's performance, it doesn't take much imagination to realise that the performance doesn't have to be good, accurate, a tempo or anything. It can all be done by edit thereafter. Now I'm not intending to imply that the OP can't play the piano, nor that there has been wholescale dishonesty going on, but frankly a competent sightreader could play through many of the etudes at quarter to half-tempo and let the editing do the rest. 25/6 really isn't that hard at slow tempi - it only becomes difficult when you approach the required speed. 25/10 at slow tempo is trivial. That nagging doubt surely hangs over most listeners' perception of the project.

Hi Andrew,

Let's avoid the subject of how close my original versions were from the enhanced versions. Let's just talk about the process. My question to you is, do you believe there is a certain art in editing "artistically" some works such as the 24 Études or others of that caliber, and what value do you give it regardless of how close or far the original is from the final result?

Of course there can be artistic and/or creative merit in how you edit the initial takes: it should be obvious that one person might edit it and produce a thoroughly unmusical result whilst another person with superior musical sensibilities could produce something worthwhile. I'm afraid, however, that I can't ignore the question of how much enhancement has gone on: it seems to me that is an intrinsic hazard of the process being undertaken. Life is unfair as well, because it's very difficult for you to answer that question convincingly.

The other problem you have, as I see it, is that you have effectively almost unlimited editing capability and with that in mind some might consider it reasonable to expect that - if you have sufficient musical insight and editing skills - you might produce something which is a truly artistic interpretation and worthy of comparison with great recordings of yesteryear. I don't think you've done that (though I accept that what constitutes the above is a subjective matter): in part because in honesty I don't think the qualities of tone and colour are good enough. I suspect that pedalling may be an issue. I don't want to dismiss your efforts out of hand simply because of the context in which they have been made, but whilst there is merit in what you have done, to my mind there is also something missing.

First of all, I say they are competent recordings and on the interpretation side it's as good and better than some of the best recordings out there, because in some case, such as Op 25 No 6 (thirds) I don't think any pianist could reach that degree of softness and fluidity at that speed and in thirds, and too me, that's what makes this Étude, the same for Op. 25 No 2. But that's me. But I don't want to debate the wrong thing here, I was just interested in a final result that one would listen without knowing anything about it and sound like a credible good quality recording played live. Now, of course, it doesn't have the same color as a real piano, but I wasn't trying to go that far. I can hear the difference myself, the lack of overtones, color, timbre, etc I know it's not the same. so there should be clear nuances between what I expected and what people thought I expected.

I'm not sure I would agree with the sentiments about interpretation in your first sentence which I find a rather sweeping statement. Listen to Friedman's 25/6. However, you're right, that is probably a side-issue.

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