Please don't let Texas secede. In two months the rednecks will lose to the wetbacks, and I'll wind up a deadhead. x.Xposted by ZachsMind at 9:58 AM on July 4, 2007

Why all that? go to a mall and shop...see if you can find anything to buy that is made in America.posted by Postroad at 9:59 AM on July 4, 2007

Brandon Blatcher:
Cool. Then I guess y'all don't need any of TX's resources then. More for us when we get back there in a few months :D

ZachsMind:
flagged.

Postroad:
Hah! Good one.

Eideteker:
We're going to see Sicko, then we're going to start working on details for joining up with other concerned citizens to see if we can't turn this bus around and head back towards a Democratic Republic instead of a theocracy led by vermin.posted by batmonkey at 10:26 AM on July 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

Wouldn't it just be easier to impeach and prosecute?posted by filmgeek at 10:27 AM on July 4, 2007

Flagged??? I can't say redneck anymore? Since when? God, I hate this political correctness crap. Next thing you'll tell me is we can't take back porch monkey.posted by ZachsMind at 10:31 AM on July 4, 2007

Bureau of Public Secrets,
Hey, that's an interesting site, but isn't that your site, considering your MeFi name is the domain name and the title? Is self-linking okay if done in thread comments?posted by Sangermaine at 10:37 AM on July 4, 2007

homunculus:
The Geiger column is interesting. I disagree with the approach he takes in the final sentence, however:
"And, for that, every American who voted for Bush, should take time this July Fourth to perform a truly patriotic act and be profoundly ashamed."

Divisiveness is what got us to this point. Encouraging more of it, pointing fingers, telling people to go stand in the corner...none of that is going to help us recover our American spirit.

PS to Zachsmind:
I often like your output. The verbiage you chose in that comment, however, was unfortunate.

I mean, dude, why "wetbacks"? If it was for the repeated compound word effect, the questionable reach to make the joke happen ruined the funny.posted by batmonkey at 10:39 AM on July 4, 2007

Divisiveness is what got us to this point. Encouraging more of it, pointing fingers, telling people to go stand in the corner...none of that is going to help us recover our American spirit.

I'm not exactly sure what American spirit you remember. To me, identifying the small group of people that contributed to very serious wrongs in our history (Jim Crow, Vietnam, Watergate, etc.) and throwing them out of power is precisely the American spirit.posted by psmealey at 10:45 AM on July 4, 2007

I couldn't watch all the Penn'n'Teller video but I skipped through it and it seems like bait'n'switch to me -- they talk about "the violent overthrow of the US government" (which is a great start) but then launch into a verse of "why gun control is bad" (rolls eyes).

For the record, my feeling about gun ownership is much like that about cocaine: if people weren't so obviously crazy on the topic, I'd be more inclined to let them have it; I wouldn't mind them for myself even but I'm even more inclined not to let the nutcases get 'em.

Penn and Teller have deeply disappointed me with their Bullshit program -- I was a big fan before that and now I rather don't want to see them. Sure, they do reveal some useful stuff like fake medicine but their political biases come out something fierce. Their program "debunking" global warming was extremely lame without even one real scientist on it (and while I am mostly convinced of the truth of the problem I'm very open to alternative viewpoints here), I couldn't get through their endangered species episode but looked like more of the same.

And this article is bait and switch too. Grr. There isn't one serious article about revolution at all.

What the fuck happened, America?! People were talking about rebellion and were serious about it 40 years ago. In those times, people were murdered, people died, bombs were planted by Americans rebelling against their government for crimes against the people no greater than those committed by the current cabal.

My reading is that the 60s gave "the military-industrial complex" a bad scare. To try to make sure that Americans would never again come close to ripping aside the veil of government to see how profoundly they are being robbed, they made a lot of changes to prevent this from ever happening again like purchasing a good chunk of the media.

They were helped in the process by the exponential information overload from which we all suffer, so that the vitally important facts of governance are lost in the flood.posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:49 AM on July 4, 2007 [2 favorites]

Penn & Teller's Bullshit is a great outline of a curriculum on civics for 6th grade boys. Unfortunately, if your level of understanding on matters of science and public policy goes deeper than that, they don't have much to offer you.posted by psmealey at 10:53 AM on July 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

psmealey:
"I'm not exactly sure what American spirit you remember. To me, identifying the small group of people that contributed to very serious wrongs in our history (Jim Crow, Vietnam, Watergate, etc.) and throwing them out of power is precisely the American spirit."

Throwing them out of power is action. Telling them to go feel ashamed for themselves is pointless divisiveness.

What's with the backlash against Bulllshit today? Not defending it, exactly, but previous posts about it have had lots of P&T fanboy comments.

I like the show, personally, and I think it's much more honest than Michael Moore et al. Penn and Teller never pretend not to be biased, and they don't misleadingly cut interviews or use other dishonest tactics. The gun control episode was one of my favorites.posted by roll truck roll at 11:04 AM on July 4, 2007

Throwing them out of power is action. Telling them to go feel ashamed for themselves is pointless divisiveness.

Hmm. Would you agree that when it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation? Or is that too divisive today?posted by scottreynen at 11:04 AM on July 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

carsonb is right, Bureau. Use your expertise to aid in the discussion that is taking place here.posted by roll truck roll at 11:07 AM on July 4, 2007

scottreynen:
"Hmm. Would you agree that when it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation? Or is that too divisive today?"

AGH! I'm not contradicting the fact that we ARE a divided nation.

What I am saying is that Geiger is a doofus for writing a mostly powerful column and then saying that the only thing those who helped get us into this mess should do is feel ashamed of themselves.

That Bureau of Public Secrets link is funny in spots. Revolution is a messy, difficult business, and having spoken to Spartacist and libertarian alike, I neither met nor heard of anyone countrywide capable of carrying off anything more than limited localized support. We aren't anywhere near even a second Shays Rebellion, which doesn't exactly mean that everyone needs to resign themselves and go home, either..there's still plenty to be done outside of barricades, no matter what side you're on.posted by StrikeTheViol at 11:22 AM on July 4, 2007

So, not worth keeping in the Union but worth trading with, eh?

The obvious compromise here would be to make Texas like DC, where it gets to be in the Union to pay taxes and such, but not so much when it comes to having voting members of congress. That should make everyone* happy.

* for values of "everyone" not including Texans.posted by scottreynen at 11:27 AM on July 4, 2007

If shame can be an effective tool to get these people to take their exercise of constitutional responsibility more seriously (I cannot tell you how many people told me in 2000, "sure he's an idiot, but he'll surround himself with competent people"), then I am all for it.

I applaud your sentiment, that we should all be adults and look to the future, but I don't think it's practical or even wise. The people that supported this semi-literate crypto-monarch should well feel some psychic or moral pain for having done so. Casting a little shame on people? Small price to pay, I think. Clearly there's much more than that to be done to right our course, but it's at least a start.

I have done an awful lot of traveling abroad in my career, and while I didn't always agree with my government, I could mostly support its decisions on the basis of national interest. I was however, never made to feel embarrassed by government until about 2002. And it has gotten steadily worse since.posted by psmealey at 11:33 AM on July 4, 2007

psmealey:
"I was however, never made to feel embarrassed by government until about 2002."

Lucky you! I've been embarrassed since right around 1981.posted by batmonkey at 11:36 AM on July 4, 2007

I think people who voted for GWB in 2004 should be ashamed. It's no different than taking a dump in the middle of the living room on purpose. You knew it was wrong, you knew it was going to stink, and you knew you'd have to live with it, but you did it anyway. Sometimes shame can help folks learn to be better people. Those who voted for GWB in 2000 were idiots, but those who voted for him in 2004 were willfully shitting on this country.posted by maxwelton at 12:01 PM on July 4, 2007

Or maybe they didn't like the fact that John Kerry was a phony prick who was too busy chasing votes to actually take a stand on a single issue.posted by rocket88 at 12:16 PM on July 4, 2007

Hm. I think it's better to have 70% of the people in on throwing off the yoke than it is to have 50%.

A lot of people who voted for Bush regret it. No, not all of them. Those people can't be helped, so why try? Logic only works on the logical. Instead of taking the opportunity to say "Told you so!", as pleasurable as it would be, I'm going to extend my hand to those who made a mistake and now regret it. To alienate a potential ally in making a better world for all of us on the basis of "see what you did?!" is a strategic error, imho.posted by SaintCynr at 12:27 PM on July 4, 2007

I read this today and really liked it, so I thought I'd share it...

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the
political bands
which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth,
the separate and
equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect
to the opinions
of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed
by their
Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit
of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just
powers from the consent of the governed.
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right
of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation
on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long
established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to
right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object,
evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their
duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.posted by humannaire at 12:49 PM on July 4, 2007 [2 favorites]

That explanation for the Civil War sounds a lot more reasonable and likely than anything else I've ever read.posted by blacklite at 1:01 PM on July 4, 2007

Note on the Beatles "Revolution" link: Few songs more clearly demonstrated the Beatles' cluelessness at this point (the "White Album") in their careers. Musically, it was a draggy, uninspired contribution to the "good ole rock 'n' roll" movement than taking shape, inspired by appearance of Sha-Na-Na in the movie "Woodstock" (the only moment of life in that deadly film), especially marred by the "dum-dooby-do-wop" vocal fills included in the single version of the song (which was even draggier than the album version).
Politically, hip kids at the time barfed at the song's lyrics, in which the Beatles revealed that the only "contribution" they thought it possible for them to make to the movement was "money" -- this, at a time when a word from John Lennon could have sent a thousand kids into the streets with blazing machine guns.
But the worst part of it all, is that in the album version, John Lennon sings "But when you talk about destruction, don't you know that you can count me out" -- a comment that was immediately heaped with scorn in the underground press. Lennnon was such an asshole, he didn't even have the conviction of his own pussy-whippedness (by Yoko), to stick by his non-violent statement, and in the single version, added the world "in" after "out," so nobody could tell if he was for or against violent revolution. You can see him saying both in the linked video: what a mealy mouthed scumbag.
Compare the Beatles "Revolution" to the Rolling Stones "Street Fighting Man," which comes out and declares "the time is right for violent revolution." Of course, the Stones were calling for a French-style revolution, which meant a Jean Luc Godard film with a lot of black guys with white chicks, and long, boring ideological recitations.
The late 1960s and early 70s were a loathsome age. We hipsters were all calling for a revolution that, if it wanted to succeed, would have needed to execute us as its first order of business.posted by Faze at 1:28 PM on July 4, 2007 [3 favorites]

Penn and Teller never pretend not to be biased, and they don't misleadingly cut interviews or use other dishonest tactics.

Must have missed that episode. No, wait, you're right. They don't need to selectively edit when they choose not to have actual experts refute the opposite side. Now, I was a *huge* fan of Bullshit! season one, except I thought it was a little to bibley (2 or 3 episodes, I think) Season two they started to get a little tricky, and now I can't watch it. Instead, I go back and watch their 80s and 90s Network TV specials or something.

I mean, the one about recycling was horrible another bait and switch, they talk about how much it costs to recycle vs how much it costs to produce raw, and how all the garbage we produce for the next century (i think was their timeframe) would just fit inside of Wyoming, and no one lives there anywway (seriously) Nevermind that measuring the environmental cost of one new bottle vs a recycled one might yield totally different result. Well, I suppose when you're a hammer everything looks like a nail, or, in this case, if you're an uncompromising libertarian (stress on the uncompromising), you can't help but see anything in terms of dollars and cents.posted by absalom at 1:31 PM on July 4, 2007

We went to our local (Raleigh, NC) Independence Day celebration at the state capitol. There was a reading of the Declaration, which I was happy to hear, until he got to the part about the grievances against King George and skipped right over them. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think they wanted to read things like:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences. . . .

It made me spitting mad. People cared enough to die for those things, and in the most generous light, they didn't want to take the extra few minutes to read the list. Less charitably, I think they were afraid it'd offend "patriotic" Republicans.posted by EarBucket at 2:15 PM on July 4, 2007 [4 favorites]

You have to take Bullshit! with a grain of bullshit. Some episodes, like the gun control one, I've loved. Some I can't stand. It all depends on your opinions because, like roll truck roll said, they never claimed not to be biased. They do seem to take things less seriously in general than they did around season one, but I think that's just cause they've run out of bullshit to talk about.

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