Triple-S wrote:Mike Holmgren on Browns: "How do you make your team better by trading your best player? Your best offensive player."

Well, he wasn't either, and this also wasn't a move to make their (current) team better. Per usual, the now is inconsequential.

Would anyone be shocked to see McGahee walk in off the street with his robotically repaired knee and still look just as good as Richardson?

Not to dump on the guy - seems like a class mother fucker that might be solid in Indy if he can stay healthy - but just lacked that difference-making quality that a guy picked in his spot was supposed to have (that I thought he would have).

Triple-S wrote:Mike Holmgren on Browns: "How do you make your team better by trading your best player? Your best offensive player."

Well, he wasn't either, and this also wasn't a move to make their (current) team better. Per usual, the now is inconsequential.

Would anyone be shocked to see McGahee walk in off the street with his robotically repaired knee and still look just as good as Richardson?

Not to dump on the guy - seems like a class mother fucker that might be solid in Indy if he can stay healthy - but just lacked that difference-making quality that a guy picked in his spot was supposed to have (that I thought he would have).

I'm not hating on TRich or demeaning him now that he's gone.

But what he did hear was pedestrian. He was a pedestrian back, a dancing back, a gets thrown back. Anyone can be that back. McGahee is anyone and probably a bit more to inclined to throw himself into the hole.

Triple-S wrote:Mike Holmgren on Browns: "How do you make your team better by trading your best player? Your best offensive player."

Well, he wasn't either, and this also wasn't a move to make their (current) team better. Per usual, the now is inconsequential.

Would anyone be shocked to see McGahee walk in off the street with his robotically repaired knee and still look just as good as Richardson?

Not to dump on the guy - seems like a class mother fucker that might be solid in Indy if he can stay healthy - but just lacked that difference-making quality that a guy picked in his spot was supposed to have (that I thought he would have).

I'm not hating on TRich or demeaning him now that he's gone.

But what he did hear was pedestrian. He was a pedestrian back, a dancing back, a gets thrown back. Anyone can be that back. McGahee is anyone and probably a bit more to inclined to throw himself into the hole.

And I think TRich is talented enough to eventually figure it out. I still do think he's going to be good. But he hasn't been so far. 2 runs of more than 20 yards in 17 games? Sheesh.

jb wrote: Conditioner is better because it leaves the hair silky and smooth

Hikohadon wrote:Stop looking at me, swan.

Like Peeks knows anything about hair. But I guess he could read about it and regurgitate his opinion based upon what he read and then exalt in his resounding triumph when GQ announced that shampoo is indeed better.

I use plain, old soap/shower gel.

But I will read up and look at all the information. I will not just go 6 beers deep and swallow the first wad of goo the hometown team spurts out.... err the shamppo/conditioned maker spurts out, and take it as being implicitly the right move.

Ya know, I have to be able to see both sides of an issue when doing what I do all day. No lines in the sand as those lead to delay and conflict. And sht don't get better with time when it's built on conflict. It gets more expensive for everyone. I gotta find the good in our insureds and clients but I better be realistic about their warts and call a loser a loser when I see such a case.

I'm not upset with Weeden or TRich. They were always flawed and those picks were always fucking stupid and desperate and made by men who were stupid and desperate and who hadn't gotten much right up to that very point. I'm just disappointed in guys who should know better falling for the old banana in the tailpipe gag.

Again.

But I love ya both. You're my boys. Yoo're just a couple little gullible rascals. Always getting yourselves into adventures of the heart.

I have no resentment, JB. I have fun.

This shit just don't mean much at the end of the day.

I will not revisit 2012. i will not be sucked in like Michael Corleone. I do not have a pathological need to get in last word. I don't always have to be right. Really.... trying to convince myself.

I do have a pathological need to not be misunderstood.

In hindsight, one man's open mind with no lines drawn in the sand that reached immutable conclusion before one NFL pass is another man's closed mind of not even giving prospects a chance. Subjective, I know.

That, and a little perceived big in the britches ball busting from your brothers in stupidity for reasons covered up thread in the draft preview pieces best put to rest.

Having said that, I think this all went wheels off when I mistakenly posted something like "now that we have our QB" which was intended to be now that we have our QB prospect who could solve our issues there and Eye lost it and guffawed and hemmed and blasted. peeker rushed thru the breech.

peeker643 wrote:T Rich fits and Weeden's best chance of being anything is Norv. I believe both those are true. Still.

I also believe they were also always bastard reaches of a failed regime that the new regime was willing to look at this year in the hopes they'd develop into solid players or great players. But they showed in games 1 and 2 that that one still couldn't throw a changeup and hit a back 20 yards open and one won't stop looking for Alabama-sized holes between Mack and Cousins or between Mack and Greco.

And then, one gets an owie and one draws a first round offer and that's all she wrote.

That's a bingo.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

motherscratcher wrote:And I think TRich is talented enough to eventually figure it out. I still do think he's going to be good. But he hasn't been so far. 2 runs of more than 20 yards in 17 games? Sheesh.

It's just strange for Holmes to weigh in like that. Or maybe not.

Trents RB CV = Holmegrums GM CV

Here's the thing. RB's shouldn't have to figure it out, it should be instinctive. Kinda difficult to go from overthinking to being instinctive.

Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB

peeker643 wrote:T Rich fits and Weeden's best chance of being anything is Norv. I believe both those are true. Still.

I also believe they were also always bastard reaches of a failed regime that the new regime was willing to look at this year in the hopes they'd develop into solid players or great players. But they showed in games 1 and 2 that that one still couldn't throw a changeup and hit a back 20 yards open and one won't stop looking for Alabama-sized holes between Mack and Cousins or between Mack and Greco.

And then, one gets an owie and one draws a first round offer and that's all she wrote.

That's a bingo.

IT'S JUST BINGO.

How you fuckers doing???

"All Beckett needs to do to cap off this mess is order some fried chicken and beer" – 5/10/12 before Beckett got chased in the 3rd at Fenway.

Call me insane but dealing JT to Denver for a boatload of picks sounds interesting. The Clowns won't be ready to compete meaningfully until 2015. Joe will be 31. There are a number of LT's available in 2014 draft for the long haul. Have at it.

General wrote:Call me insane but dealing JT to Denver for a boatload of picks sounds interesting. The Clowns won't be ready to compete meaningfully until 2015. Joe will be 31. There are a number of LT's available in 2014 draft for the long haul. Have at it.

I want an All-Pro LT to protect my new QB next season. It would take a deal I couldn't say 'no' to.

General wrote:Call me insane but dealing JT to Denver for a boatload of picks sounds interesting. The Clowns won't be ready to compete meaningfully until 2015. Joe will be 31. There are a number of LT's available in 2014 draft for the long haul. Have at it.

You're not insane unless I am and the fact of the matter is "the only sane reaction to an insane world is insanity"

I'd do it too...I mean, what do they have to lose outside the remainder of the fan base?

General wrote:Call me insane but dealing JT to Denver for a boatload of picks sounds interesting. The Clowns won't be ready to compete meaningfully until 2015. Joe will be 31. There are a number of LT's available in 2014 draft for the long haul. Have at it.

The only kind of deal I'd be interested in would be a JT for Clady + high pick swap, and the only way something like that happens, especially after all the negative reaction to the Richardson deal, is if Peyton's getting destroyed in the pocket and we're headed for 0-8 before the trade deadline.

ETA: unless Trent keeps going at a 3.5 YPC clip in Indy, then everyone might very well be giddy over the prospects of another such deal.

EATA: nevermind, apparently the internets say trading IR'd players is a no no

motherscratcher wrote:And I think TRich is talented enough to eventually figure it out. I still do think he's going to be good. But he hasn't been so far. 2 runs of more than 20 yards in 17 games? Sheesh.

It's just strange for Holmes to weigh in like that. Or maybe not.

Trents RB CV = Holmegrums GM CV

Here's the thing. RB's shouldn't have to figure it out, it should be instinctive. Kinda difficult to go from overthinking to being instinctive.

motherscratcher wrote:And I think TRich is talented enough to eventually figure it out. I still do think he's going to be good. But he hasn't been so far. 2 runs of more than 20 yards in 17 games? Sheesh.

It's just strange for Holmes to weigh in like that. Or maybe not.

Trents RB CV = Holmegrums GM CV

Here's the thing. RB's shouldn't have to figure it out, it should be instinctive. Kinda difficult to go from overthinking to being instinctive.

Word - Moscra on the nitrous again.

Yes, it's ridiculous to think that a dude in his second season might figure out that you have to hit the hole rather than dance in front of it like he did in college. I'm sure it's never happened.

motherscratcher wrote:And I think TRich is talented enough to eventually figure it out. I still do think he's going to be good. But he hasn't been so far. 2 runs of more than 20 yards in 17 games? Sheesh.

It's just strange for Holmes to weigh in like that. Or maybe not.

Trents RB CV = Holmegrums GM CV

Here's the thing. RB's shouldn't have to figure it out, it should be instinctive. Kinda difficult to go from overthinking to being instinctive.

Word - Moscra on the nitrous again.

Yes, it's ridiculous to think that a dude in his second season might figure out that you have to hit the hole rather than dance in front of it like he did in college. I'm sure it's never happened.

Trying like hell to think of a great RB that did so. Not from the standpoint of anyone holding up YPC or productivity, but moreso clueless field vision, no burst, and indecisiveness turning into a very good RB.

The Ced Benson analogy seems appropos but IDK how much of that was performance based on lack of ability/cluelessness vs cranial rectosis off the field translating to on the field.

Most of these guys can either run or they can't. I know OJ struggled as a rookie and then started to take peoples heads off but I can't recall another late bloomer that was a high pick.

jb wrote:Trying like hell to think of a great RB that did so. Not from the standpoint of anyone holding up YPC or productivity, but moreso clueless field vision, no burst, and indecisiveness turning into a very good RB.

William Green after the first half of his rookie year and prior to his stabbing is the closest I'm aware of.

motherscratcher wrote:And I think TRich is talented enough to eventually figure it out. I still do think he's going to be good. But he hasn't been so far. 2 runs of more than 20 yards in 17 games? Sheesh.

It's just strange for Holmes to weigh in like that. Or maybe not.

Trents RB CV = Holmegrums GM CV

Here's the thing. RB's shouldn't have to figure it out, it should be instinctive. Kinda difficult to go from overthinking to being instinctive.

Word - Moscra on the nitrous again.

Yes, it's ridiculous to think that a dude in his second season might figure out that you have to hit the hole rather than dance in front of it like he did in college. I'm sure it's never happened.

Trying like hell to think of a great RB that did so. Not from the standpoint of anyone holding up YPC or productivity, but moreso clueless field vision, no burst, and indecisiveness turning into a very good RB.

The Ced Benson analogy seems appropos but IDK how much of that was performance based on lack of ability/cluelessness vs cranial rectosis off the field translating to on the field.

Most of these guys can either run or they can't. I know OJ struggled as a rookie and then started to take peoples heads off but I can't recall another late bloomer that was a high pick.

I don't pay anywhere near close enough attention to have the first clue how good a RB's field vision, burst, and indecisiveness are so I'm not going to pretend to. Especially a RB not on the Browns.

I guess I'll have to take your word for it and stand corrected. It's impossible. Good thing we traded him for a 1st before he was cut.

OK, that sounded bitchier than I meant it to. I just think that a few games into his second season, where he spent much of the first season running hurt, it WAY premature to label the guy a lost cause.

motherscratcher wrote:And I think TRich is talented enough to eventually figure it out. I still do think he's going to be good. But he hasn't been so far. 2 runs of more than 20 yards in 17 games? Sheesh.

It's just strange for Holmes to weigh in like that. Or maybe not.

Trents RB CV = Holmegrums GM CV

Here's the thing. RB's shouldn't have to figure it out, it should be instinctive. Kinda difficult to go from overthinking to being instinctive.

Word - Moscra on the nitrous again.

Yes, it's ridiculous to think that a dude in his second season might figure out that you have to hit the hole rather than dance in front of it like he did in college. I'm sure it's never happened.

Trying like hell to think of a great RB that did so. Not from the standpoint of anyone holding up YPC or productivity, but moreso clueless field vision, no burst, and indecisiveness turning into a very good RB.

The Ced Benson analogy seems appropos but IDK how much of that was performance based on lack of ability/cluelessness vs cranial rectosis off the field translating to on the field.

Most of these guys can either run or they can't. I know OJ struggled as a rookie and then started to take peoples heads off but I can't recall another late bloomer that was a high pick.

It really doesn't matter. Who is the best pure RB in the last 20 years, AP, no doubt. Everybody in America and their mother knows he is gettin the ball, and he STILL gets the yards. How many playoff games has Minny won since he's been there? How many playoff yards has he gained? IF (<-----pretend that is very big) our Browns just traded AP away THEN I could get down with the frustration and down right anger. But they didn't trade away AP.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

motherscratcher wrote:OK, that sounded bitchier than I meant it to. I just think that a few games into his second season, where he spent much of the first season running hurt, it WAY premature to label the guy a lost cause.

IDK Mo Scra. Break down what makes a RB suypper-dreamy-special.

Burst, power, elusiveness, acceleration, ability to stay at full speed while cutting, vision to take it north and south without much BS only when needed and then that's a bonus and then 5th gear house you speed.

Our boi had power. End of list. And then he was fragile.

I think Hoo Doo nails it. There is a definite curve to watching a bust in progress unless your name rhymes with "Petuneyay". You could see it coming with Trent.

motherscratcher wrote:OK, that sounded bitchier than I meant it to. I just think that a few games into his second season, where he spent much of the first season running hurt, it WAY premature to label the guy a lost cause.

IDK Mo Scra. Break down what makes a RB suypper-dreamy-special.

Burst, power, elusiveness, acceleration, ability to stay at full speed while cutting, vision to take it north and south without much BS only when needed and then that's a bonus and then 5th gear house you speed.

Our boi had power. End of list. And then he was fragile.

I think Hoo Doo nails it. There is a definite curve to watching a bust in progress unless your name rhymes with "Petuneyay". You could see it coming with Trent.

As always..... IC OULD BE WRONG!

After looking at 1st round picks going back it is hard to find guys that turned out good that didn't start that way. And what you guys are saying makes sense, and it does seem to be the way of it.

But it just seems to simple. Nobody here is saying anything that the guys in Indy haven't thought of, and they thought it wise to give up a first round draft pick for him. Make's me think his vision, burst, what have you might not be all that bad or unfixable. Or maybe it is that simple and they are complete morons.

It's possible. I think giving up a 1st for any RB is over paying.

ANd I've been on board with this trade since the moment I heard about it. It might end up being one of those rare trades that works out for both teams.

I hope not. I hope both TR and Luck go down with ACL's that sideline them until next season when they will make a full recovery.

motherscratcher wrote:OK, that sounded bitchier than I meant it to. I just think that a few games into his second season, where he spent much of the first season running hurt, it WAY premature to label the guy a lost cause.

IDK Mo Scra. Break down what makes a RB suypper-dreamy-special.

Burst, power, elusiveness, acceleration, ability to stay at full speed while cutting, vision to take it north and south without much BS only when needed and then that's a bonus and then 5th gear house you speed.

Our boi had power. End of list. And then he was fragile.

I think Hoo Doo nails it. There is a definite curve to watching a bust in progress unless your name rhymes with "Petuneyay". You could see it coming with Trent.

As always..... IC OULD BE WRONG!

After looking at 1st round picks going back it is hard to find guys that turned out good that didn't start that way. And what you guys are saying makes sense, and it does seem to be the way of it.

But it just seems to simple. Nobody here is saying anything that the guys in Indy haven't thought of, and they thought it wise to give up a first round draft pick for him. Make's me think his vision, burst, what have you might not be all that bad or unfixable. Or maybe it is that simple and they are complete morons.

It's possible. I think giving up a 1st for any RB is over paying.

ANd I've been on board with this trade since the moment I heard about it. It might end up being one of those rare trades that works out for both teams.

I hope not. I hope both TR and Luck go down with ACL's that sideline them until next season when they will make a full recovery.

Meh.... its an arguable assumption that the Dolts even know WTF they're doing

I mean its not like they had to be smart to get Luck...they just had to suck

What they do with him remains to be seen and IMHO regardless of TR's future success or failure, it was just the absolute right thing to do to get the QB

In regards to TR "figuring it out" holy Christ, have you heard that guy try to put a sentence together? Especially when something out of the blue like this happens and the quick questions might require a little thought process?

Not saying you need to be a genius to tote the rock. Not saying he won't get better. I'm just saying that I ain't puttin' money on him "figuring out" anything.

As Larvell mentions, hitting that hole is pretty instinctive. Kinda like a "court sense" in hoops. Not sure how "learned" that is.

Throw the past away, in a vaccum, getting a first round pick for a RB in 2013 is good work.

To be clear - I'm certainly not saying you can't get better. Common sense shows up experience helps. Lotta variables. All I'm saying is certain variables are more innate, and certain ones are more easily learned.

Spiller has been quite good from the jump - hell, not gonna look it up, but aside from a rookie year with 3 or so games worth of carries, the guy's been over 5 yards a pop - and more to my point, he looks a lot more instinctive in doing it.

Reggie Bush, like Darren Sproles and the like, are pretty dependant on being in the right place. The difference between being in a Tony Sparano team/offense as opposed to where he is now is the difference. He didn't learn to cut and run this year. And I'll entertain this argument with TR - that in a different place he'll be better, (although have you checked out the Colts line?) I suppose we'll see.

But frankly, bottom line, I don't HATE TR as a player. A joke at number 3 and all, but he ain't Tommy Vardell. I just think he's an old style back that ain't all that swift. With the opening up of offenses, a TJ Yeldon style that can think is a better option. YMMV.

I think the best comparison would be the Cedric Benson one. Similar type back, similar size, and Richardson will probably go on to eventually have the same kind of functional career for his second and third team. The kind of production that can probably be duplicated by a McGahee/Rainey combo.

The Simmons article was very good.

I don't see the Colts being worse than 8-8, their division is meh and Luck is still pretty good.

That Thomas-for-Clady-plus-high-pick idea was nice while it lasted - the only situation in which a Thomas trade would be fine with me. IF the chips fall the right way and IF LomBanner aren't total personnel idiots they could be very interesting next year. Not sure how long Thomas has left, but I'd guess a couple years, and you don't want to tear down your actual good pieces if you want to make the Big Leap next season. And so hard to replace elite LT's... way harder than mediocre RB's. If you want to trade a guy that isn't part of future plans so that we suck more now, sure, go for it. But there are a handful of guys that I'd be really pissed if they traded.

Alex Mack isn't necessarily one of them. Always felt he was a bit overrated.

Josh Gordon is. You've seen what that WR corps looks like without him. They probably already need another starting WR - don't make that 2.

Even with Andrew Luck? How many wins do you see RG3 racking up this year? And is this what the Browns can look forward to if they ever draft a "franchise" quarterback?

Washington's front office is on par with the Browns.

I would argue that Andrew Luck would be in better shape HERE, rather than be behind the worst line in football. (Barnwell has written an article on how Luck is getting knocked down at an unstastainable rate)

So, really, what Cleveland would look forward to with a franchise QB would be relevance and winning.

I am worried Willis McG will not be able to master the one pass pattern of which T.R.'s talents were showcased...you know the 20 yd parallel to the line of scrimmage....pads sideways...make the catch.....turn it up along the sidelines......guaranteed -3/+3 every time.

Benson went fourth overall, correct? I think biggest issue for me with TRich is how he couldn't get on field on 3rd downs. #3 overall HAS TO BE on the field all three downs. HAS to be. And he couldn't ever get there even in Norv's TRich-friendly scheme. Which gives credence to Fujita (and SD74's) assertions that he was either big timing it or too dumb/lazy to do it right.

I would argue Reggie Bush got bigger as opposed to smarter.

I would also argue Josh Gordon is living the life of Reilly because he's a pygmy among midgets. Hamburger looks good next to Alpo.

Fine with how they acquired him at the time because of desperation, but he's got a lot of making up to do to be worth the aggravation he's already been and the risk he continues to be.

jb wrote:FTR, I hate RBs that aren't 1 cut & go north south runners that don't have instant acceleration.

I know you know this, but when is it the talent and when is it the philosophy?

Want a one cut and go guy you can find in Round 4? Run a zone blocking scheme.

ETA - TRich is not that guy.

Today's NFL is all about 2 high level strategies.

Take fast players and create space for them.

All tatics flow from there.

TRich ain't never gonna be fast . Runs slow thinks slow plays slow.

We are saying the same thing re TRich. Just thinking about the Shanahan/Kubiak scheme and how 6th Rounders run wild. And to me that is what's curious about the Banner valuation of the RB position. Not sure how wanting the OL to play more physical and be better drive blockers equates to creating more space.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team