China one step ahead of the US in environmentalism

Sel Appa

10-01-2008, 04:50

China has banned thin plastic bags and is promoting bringing your own canvas or reusable bag instead. Also, more durable bags are legal, but must be charged for. The US should be ashamed at not getting ahead in the world for such a simple and beneficial thing. *sigh* :headbang:

BEIJING - Declaring war on the "white pollution" choking its cities, farms and waterways, China is banning free plastic shopping bags and calling for a return to the cloth bags of old — steps largely welcomed by merchants and shoppers on Wednesday.

The measure eliminates the flimsiest bags and forces stores to charge for others, making China the latest nation to target plastic bags in a bid to cut waste and conserve resources.

Beijing residents appeared to take the ban in stride, reflecting rising environmental consciousness and concern over skyrocketing oil prices.

"If we can reduce waste and save resources, then it's good both for us and the whole world," said college student Xu Lixian, who was buying tangerines out of cardboard boxes at a sidewalk stall.

The ban takes effect June 1, barely two months before Beijing hosts the Summer Olympic Games, ahead of which it has been demolishing run-down neighborhoods and working to clear smog. The games have added impetus to a number of policies and projects, likely boosting odds for the bag ban's implementation.

Under the new rules, businesses will be prohibited from manufacturing, selling or using bags less than 0.025 millimeters (0.00098 inches) thick, according to the order issued by the State Council, China's Cabinet. The council's orders constitute the highest level of administrative regulation and follow-through is carefully monitored.

More durable plastic bags still will be permitted for sale by markets and shops.

The regulation, dated Dec. 31 and posted on a government Web site Tuesday, called for "a return to cloth bags and shopping baskets to reduce the use of plastic bags."

It also urged waste collectors to step up recycling efforts to reduce the amount of bags burned or buried. Finance authorities were told to consider tax measures to discourage plastic bag production and sale.

Internationally, legislation to discourage plastic bag use has been passed in parts of South Africa, Ireland and Taiwan, where authorities either tax shoppers who use them or impose fees on companies that distribute them. Bangladesh already bans them, as do at least 30 remote Alaskan villages.

Last year, San Francisco became the first U.S. city to ban petroleum-based plastic bags in large grocery stores. In France, supermarket chains have begun shying away from giving away plastic bags and German stores must pay a recycling fee if they wish to offer them. Ireland's surcharge on bags imposed in 2003 has been credited with sharply reducing demand.

The elderly proprietor of a combined clothing shop and grocery shop, who gave only his surname, Wang, said the Chinese measure could reduce sales initially but would be beneficial in the long run.

"It's a bother, but these bags really do create a lot of pollution, so it should be a good thing," said Wang. He said the measure would make little difference to his costs since he spends just 10 yuan ($1.35) a month on bags.

Xu, the college student, said the move showed China was serious about joining global efforts to stem environmental deterioration.

"I think this really shows that China is being a responsible country," said the 21-year-old.

Employees at larger supermarkets and convenience stores said they were unclear on the measure and did not know what their employers' response would be.

The regulation comes as Beijing steps up efforts to fight pollution that has accompanied China's breakneck economic growth. Factories and plants that churn out low-cost products for the world's consumers have severely fouled the country's air and water.

The order continues a years-old campaign against plastic waste, or "white pollution," that initially targeted the plastic foam lunch boxes whose decaying shells were once ubiquitous in China.

Shopkeepers started handing out cheap, flimsy plastic bags to customers about 15 years ago, roughly the same time that China shifted from being a net oil exporter to being a net importer. In recent years, large Western or Japanese-style supermarkets have begun to supplant traditional markets, eliminating the need for shoppers to bring their own bags.

"Our country consumes a huge amount of plastic shopping bags each year," the State Council said in a statement.

"While plastic shopping bags provide convenience to consumers, this has caused a serious waste of energy and resources and environmental pollution because of excessive usage, inadequate recycling and other reasons," the statement said.

Plastic shopping bags are given out with even the smallest items, although the statement gave no estimates as to the specific number of bags consumed in China or the potential savings in terms of the petroleum used to produce them.

Jennifer Turner, director of the China Environment Forum at the Woodrow Wilson Center in Washington, said China's solid waste is at "a crisis level."

"Their landfills are reaching capacity and will be full in 13 years," she said, adding that a ban like this could be a significant way to educate the public about China's environmental issues.

In the United States, which has less than one-quarter of China's 1.3 billion people, the Sierra Club's Sierra magazine estimates almost 100 billion plastic bags are thrown out each year. The Sierra Club estimated that if every one of New York City's 8 million people used one less grocery bag per year, it would reduce waste by about 218,000 pounds.

In New York on Wednesday, the City Council approved a bill requiring large stores to provide bins for recycling plastic bags. The stores must also use bags that read: "Please return this bag to a participating store for recycling." Mayor Michael Bloomberg supports the measure and is expected to sign it.

China's move won praise from environmental organizations including Greenpeace, which issued a statement welcoming the ban.

"The State Council's announcement to ban free plastic bags is a perfect case to combine the two of the major forces in environment protection: public participation and government policy guidance," Greenpeace said.

Christopher Flavin, president of Worldwatch Institute, an independent research organization in Washington, said "China is ahead of the U.S. with this policy."

"They have had problems enforcing programs in the past, but this is easy to enforce because it has to be implemented on the retail level," Flavin said. "It won't be 100 percent on the first day, but in general, if you come back a year from now you will find this will be enforced and in place."

Soyut

10-01-2008, 04:52

Is there some kind of solid waste managment problem in america?

Plotadonia

10-01-2008, 04:52

More likely they were trying to ease oil prices.

Marrakech II

10-01-2008, 04:53

I have been to China on more then one occasion. They do not compare at all to the US in environmentalism.

Vetalia

10-01-2008, 04:55

This pleases me, because it shows China is taking small steps to begin building the foundations necessary for environmental management from the ground up, rather than having to start from the top and work down. I can only hope this marks the start of a dedicated effort to contain all forms of environmental damage as a key component of sustainable economic development.

I can't say that's guaranteed, however. The old Soviet (or in this case Maoist) concept of "more factories, more inputs, more labor" rather than the qualitative productivity approach of a developed economy still lives, and it's still inflicting economic damage.

Whatsnotreserved

10-01-2008, 04:57

No.....they're one step ahead in banning plastic bags. In terms of total environmental friendliness......they're no where close.
One example
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/business/worldbusiness/11chinacoal.html

Bann-ed

10-01-2008, 04:57

Under the new rules, businesses will be prohibited from manufacturing, selling or using bags less than 0.025 millimeters (0.00098 inches) thick, according to the order issued by the State Council, China's Cabinet. The council's orders constitute the highest level of administrative regulation and follow-through is carefully monitored.

Uhm... so... 0.026 would be fine. There is a huge loophole here.

1010102

10-01-2008, 04:58

And yet they have far more lead in the air from not banning leaded gasoline.(I know we only banned it in 1996, but we had reduced the levels to .6% of total consumption before the ban)

Fortuna_Fortes_Juvat

10-01-2008, 04:58

So what. Now, by law, bags must use MORE plastic. A token gesture, nothing more.

Plotadonia

10-01-2008, 05:01

I can't say that's guaranteed, however. The old Soviet (or in this case Maoist) concept of "more factories, more inputs, more labor" rather than the qualitative productivity approach of a developed economy still lives, and it's still inflicting economic damage.

Qualitative approach? :D

Vetalia

10-01-2008, 05:03

Qualitative approach? :D

Yeah, I just realized that. :D

Barringtonia

10-01-2008, 05:04

It's hard to call - often China has these campaigns, which are loudly announced, plastered over all the papers and then blithely ignored once the fuss has died down.

In this case, their eye is on the Olympics and making the effort to ensure the city looks clean and tidy in front of the world's media, a lesson learned from Tiananmen.

When the Olympic inspection committee came to Beijing prior to handing over the Olympics, I personally watched them spray-painting the grass lining the airport highway on the way in, another cosmetic gesture.

However, this aim to look good in front of the world is still motivation for getting things done and young Chinese people are very conscious of being citizens of the world, in the end, China's pride may end up being a force for good.

The_pantless_hero

10-01-2008, 05:09

China has banned thin plastic bags and is promoting bringing your own canvas or reusable bag instead. Also, more durable bags are legal, but must be charged for. The US should be ashamed at not getting ahead in the world for such a simple and beneficial thing. *sigh* :headbang:
The use doesn't have the space problems that other nations have and combined with political apathy, they have no drive to fix a damn thing.

Vetalia

10-01-2008, 05:11

The use doesn't have the space problems that other nations have and combined with political apathy, they have no drive to fix a damn thing.

The good news, at least, is that when the US does put its effort towards fixing something, we usually don't stop until it's done.

New Granada

10-01-2008, 05:13

Will be interesting to see to what extent this is actually carried out, especially in the sticks and in places like Guangdong.

China isn't one step ahead of the US in terms of environmentalism, it is miles behind, but one step closer.

CoallitionOfTheWilling

10-01-2008, 05:40

The issue with plastic bags could be easily solved by recycling them at the garbage sorting centers.

Domici

10-01-2008, 06:09

China has banned thin plastic bags and is promoting bringing your own canvas or reusable bag instead. Also, more durable bags are legal, but must be charged for. The US should be ashamed at not getting ahead in the world for such a simple and beneficial thing. *sigh* :headbang:

Now all they need to do is provide their citizens with breathable air and they'll have caught up with post-Dickensian London.

Agerias

10-01-2008, 06:29

China ahead of the U.S. in environmentalism?

That's rich.

The Toxic Wasteland

10-01-2008, 06:48

BEIJING - Declaring war on the "white pollution" choking its cities, farms and waterways, China is banning free plastic shopping bags and calling for a return to the cloth bags of old — steps largely welcomed by merchants and shoppers on Wednesday.

If only America would follow their lead on banning white trash; think of all the problems it would solve. :D

Sel Appa

10-01-2008, 23:00

So what. Now, by law, bags must use MORE plastic. A token gesture, nothing more.

But by charging for them, people will reuse them or use far less of them: a net decrease in plastic use.

If only America would follow their lead on banning white trash; think of all the problems it would solve. :D

lulz

Newer Burmecia

10-01-2008, 23:01

I've no problem with bags for life. It's much better tha having to fill my room with millions of plastic bags before I can be bothered to chuck them away.

Kontor

10-01-2008, 23:24

If only America would follow their lead on banning white trash; think of all the problems it would solve. :D

Racist.

Ifreann

10-01-2008, 23:31

Uhm... so... 0.026 would be fine. There is a huge loophole here.

Actually, 0.025 would be fine.

Indri

11-01-2008, 06:23

I hate bans on plastic bags. Paper bags are much worse for the environment because of the energy and material intesive process that is recycling paper and the toxic (you try drinking it) liquid waste and the smoke it generates. Paper bags are also much more costly than plastic bags, generally around 4-6x more and don't really offer much in the way of improved structural integrity or space. When you think about it, plastic makes cents.

I really hate cloth bags because they are impossible to pack. I mean it. You cannot get them to stand up long enough to pack them properly. Tote boxes are probably the easiest to pack but I rarely buy enough at once to actually need one.

The Black Forrest

11-01-2008, 07:25

I wonder if it's a permanent ban or simply a ban for the Olympics?

Lame Bums

11-01-2008, 07:46

- snip -

Look at this, and say if they're really conserving the environment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw-ZlHXs4Q8

Idling gets zero MPG's... :headbang:

Call to power

11-01-2008, 09:29

why use plastic bags when you can have a political activists pancreas?

Electronic Church

11-01-2008, 09:34

well both countries have alot to work on. I can recall in the US the mighty Texas lan where industry is very environmentally friendly there. Also buying a plot of desert as a dumping ground is most of the time cheaper then recycling. So both countries can still do more for the environment

Evil Cantadia

11-01-2008, 13:34

China ahead of the U.S. in environmentalism?

That's rich.

Why? On a per capita basis their GHG emissions are still about a quater of the US' They produce less solid waste per capita, use less energy per capita, consume less per capita, etc. One of the few things they are worse on environmentally is air pollution.

People need to look at the total picture.

Laerod

11-01-2008, 14:36

China has banned thin plastic bags and is promoting bringing your own canvas or reusable bag instead. Also, more durable bags are legal, but must be charged for. The US should be ashamed at not getting ahead in the world for such a simple and beneficial thing. *sigh* :headbang:

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080110/ap_on_re_as/china_plastic_bags)
Wow. China ahead of the US? While this is a nice step, China is hells far behind when it comes to pollution control.
Is there some kind of solid waste managment problem in america?Yes, there is. Ask someone from Virginia or Michigan.

Laerod

11-01-2008, 14:42

I really hate cloth bags because they are impossible to pack. I mean it. You cannot get them to stand up long enough to pack them properly. I had a Harris Teeter bag while I lived in Virginia. It propped up fine. Likewise, you can simply stuff normal bags. This is, of course, ignoring that you could be using your backpack.

For when you're shopping for more, collapsable shopping baskets/boxes are most practical.

Antebellum South

11-01-2008, 14:53

I hate bans on plastic bags. Paper bags are much worse for the environment because of the energy and material intesive process that is recycling paper and the toxic (you try drinking it) liquid waste and the smoke it generates. Paper bags are also much more costly than plastic bags, generally around 4-6x more and don't really offer much in the way of improved structural integrity or space. When you think about it, plastic makes cents.

I really hate cloth bags because they are impossible to pack. I mean it. You cannot get them to stand up long enough to pack them properly. Tote boxes are probably the easiest to pack but I rarely buy enough at once to actually need one.

Good point about paper bags. Solution: ban both plastic and paper bags.

Newer Burmecia

11-01-2008, 15:58

I really hate cloth bags because they are impossible to pack. I mean it. You cannot get them to stand up long enough to pack them properly.
Thin plastic bags don't exactly stand up either.

Aryavartha

11-01-2008, 18:03

When the Olympic inspection committee came to Beijing prior to handing over the Olympics, I personally watched them spray-painting the grass lining the airport highway on the way in, another cosmetic gesture.

There have been more than one instance of that..

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/14/news/green.php
Why is a barren Chinese mountain being painted green?

If this ban is enforced and people start bringing their own bags or get paper bio-degradable bags from recycled paper...then it is a good start.

There is no point comparing with the US though. China has a long way to go to become environmentally conscious and reduce their pollution footprints and the existing mess. The US maybe better than China but they too can do better.

The Lone Alliance

11-01-2008, 18:39

Yet in other places in china you can't even see the sky due to the massive amounts of coal burning.

No they're still pretty behind.

Llewdor

11-01-2008, 19:48

Way to stifle businesses, China.

The Black Forrest

11-01-2008, 21:17

Way to stifle businesses, China.

Ok I will bite.

How is that exactly?

Sel Appa

11-01-2008, 22:01

I hate bans on plastic bags. Paper bags are much worse for the environment because of the energy and material intesive process that is recycling paper and the toxic (you try drinking it) liquid waste and the smoke it generates. Paper bags are also much more costly than plastic bags, generally around 4-6x more and don't really offer much in the way of improved structural integrity or space. When you think about it, plastic makes cents.

I really hate cloth bags because they are impossible to pack. I mean it. You cannot get them to stand up long enough to pack them properly. Tote boxes are probably the easiest to pack but I rarely buy enough at once to actually need one.

Grow up and be a man (or woman as the case may be). It's not that hard to use reusable bags. Paper can be recycled more easily than plastic and this isn't promoting paper. It's promoting reusable plastic or cloth bags.

Way to stifle businesses, China.

Ok I will bite.

How is that exactly?

He's one of those libertarian schmucks who think that everything is fine as long as businesses can make money. This will not stifle business. In fact, it will be better for business because now they can charge for bags instead of giving them for free and it will reduce the cost of having to always supply bags.

Vetalia

11-01-2008, 22:12

Way to stifle businesses, China.

I would say banning plastic bags and enforcing environmental law is the last thing stifling business in China. If anything, it will encourage business because people will be less concerned about their Chinese imports being laced with elevated or even lethal levels of industrial pollutants, pesticides, and various other toxins.

Agerias

11-01-2008, 22:44

Why? On a per capita basis their GHG emissions are still about a quater of the US' They produce less solid waste per capita, use less energy per capita, consume less per capita, etc. One of the few things they are worse on environmentally is air pollution.

People need to look at the total picture.

Not to mention acid rain (which falls on thirty percent of the country), deforestation, desertification, water pollution in some areas so bad that cities face threats from water shortages, 70% of their lakes and rivers suffer from pollution

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-06/07/content_449451.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4374383.stm
60k a year die from low quality water.

Not to mention that air pollution causes hundreds of thousands of premature deaths. (The WHO estimates around 750,000 premature deaths.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6265098.stm

Oh, and go on about per capita if you want, but China still pollutes the air more than the USA does by 8%
http://www.mnp.nl/en/service/pressreleases/2007/20070619Chinanowno1inCO2emissionsUSAinsecondposition.html

Yeah, I'm looking at the big picture here.

Indri

11-01-2008, 23:46

Thin plastic bags don't exactly stand up either.
You're suposed to pack them when they're still on the rack. The racks hold them up and open while you pack them.

Grow up and be a man (or woman as the case may be). It's not that hard to use reusable bags. Paper can be recycled more easily than plastic and this isn't promoting paper.
No, paper is much more difficult to recycle than plastic and actually has a negative impact on the environment due to the excessive amount of pollution it creates and the lower quality of product it produces when compared to using virgin pulp and planting new trees to replace those cut down. You see, when you put paper out on the curb for recycling it gets picked up by a truck and taken to a sorting facility and gets sorted by hand/machine and packed onto another truck which takes it to the recycling plant. Once there they shred it and turn it into pulp then give it a chemical bath and bleach it, then it gets pressed into new paper, rolled, and loaded to ship to wherever it's been ordered. The whole process is very smokey and creates a fair deal of toxic slime, I say toxic slime because it would make you fairly sick if you tried drinking it. Pastic gets shredded and/or melted and turned into a variety of things ranging from platic bags to clothing (plastic is often mixed with cotton to make clothing) more directly than paper recycling. Of course neither would be profitable without subsidies, unlike metal recycling which is, but plastic is much closer than paper ever will be and the profitability of plastic recycling is creeping closer to break-even as oil prices climb. Trees are renewable, paper is better composted than recycled.

I don't tell you how to live your life or what you should believe politically, I expect the same from you. I believe it isn't enough to just do something, that you have to take some time to figure out if what you're doing working and worth it. No end justifies the means of lying. And for the record, I'm a man.

He's one of those libertarian schmucks who think that everything is fine as long as businesses can make money. This will not stifle business. In fact, it will be better for business because now they can charge for bags instead of giving them for free and it will reduce the cost of having to always supply bags.
Just like smoking bans don't stifle bar business but make it grow? Tell that to the bar owners who lost everything in Murderapolis.

Isidoor

12-01-2008, 00:09

China has banned thin plastic bags and is promoting bringing your own canvas or reusable bag instead. Also, more durable bags are legal, but must be charged for. The US should be ashamed at not getting ahead in the world for such a simple and beneficial thing. *sigh* :headbang:Link[/URL]

A lot of supermarkets here stopped giving free plastic bags here after the government imposed high taxes on them. Now you have to pay for them or bring your own bags (or buy reusable bags). Some don't even sell thin plastic bags anymore, and if they do they are biodegradable. It didn't have a bad effect on the economy. At first people kind of hated it but now most bring their own bag or pay extra for biodegradable bags.

Sel Appa

12-01-2008, 00:33

No, paper is much more difficult to recycle than plastic
I can recycle paper in my kitchen. I can't recycle plastic. Tell me which is easier again?

You have to do the same things to virgin paper. Recycled paper doesn't require the resources needed to grow the tree.

Just like smoking bans don't stifle bar business but make it grow? Tell that to the bar owners who lost everything in Murderapolis.
I fail to see how your analogy fits. Smokers don't really have an alternative, shoppers do.

BunnySaurus Bugsii

12-01-2008, 00:59

Banning thin plastic bags is pointless, if people still throw away the thick plastic bags. Which some people will, but far less if they have to be paid for.

You know what I think this is really about? Having a nice clean city for the Olympics.

New Ausha

12-01-2008, 03:57

One step ahead in grocery store orientated enviormental laws....

794 steps behind in Political/social freedoms....

Dyakovo

12-01-2008, 03:58

Banning thin plastic bags is pointless, if people still throw away the thick plastic bags. Which some people will, but far less if they have to be paid for.

You know what I think this is really about? Having a nice clean image for the Olympics.

fixed

Sel Appa

12-01-2008, 03:59

Banning thin plastic bags is pointless, if people still throw away the thick plastic bags. Which some people will, but far less if they have to be paid for.

You know what I think this is really about? Having a nice clean city for the Olympics.

It's better than nothing.

BunnySaurus Bugsii

12-01-2008, 05:31

I know what I'm talking about. Not because I'm Chinese or have ever been there, but because I'm a resident of Sydney, Australia, and saw some of the lateral solutions our state government came up with to make the 2000 Olympics a success.

New infrastructure: a new railway station with a line to it. Fancy looking bus-shelters (which are useless,) bus lanes, accomodation. The general prettying-up of all the major transport lanes. The Olympic Games site itself at Homebush Bay, which was one of the most polluted sites in Australia before being patched-up for the Games ... you still wouldn't want to let the groundwater there touch your skin, but it sure looked nice at the time.

Because of "terrorism," the removal of all garbage bins (the fatal 1978 Hilton Hotel bombing, involved a bomb in a garbage bin.) We still don't have garbage bins, instead people are employed to walk around picking up garbage in high-profile areas, elsewhere there is just rubbish lying around. Almost eight years later! It's fucking retarded.

Homeless people were shooed off the streets, so the important visitors don't think we have that common inner-city problem. Now this is lateral: any homeless people they couldn't place in shelters out of the city (and they did create some new places), were packed off to visit their country relatives at taxpayer expense. Some got holidays on the Gold Coast, likewise.

School holidays and Daylight Saving adjusted. The school holidays were moved by (IIRC) two weeks, to coincide with the Olympics. That freed up busses and encouraged families to either attend the Olympics or take a holiday elsewhere. The start date of Daylight Saving was brought forward (no-one told Microsoft, lol) to make use of morning sun for Olympic events.

It was a total pain living in Sydney during the Olympics, but the Games were considered a great success all round. One of the best ever

The Olympics are hugely important to China, because compared to Australia, very few tourists have ever been there. It's a huge chance to show off to rich and important people. Mostly they'll be in Beijing, a few will travel short distances to see the country while they're there.

Sure, China could employ people to walk around tidying Beijing while the Games are on (we did) but that doesn't look as good as having less litter to start with. And those damn thin plastic bags waft around rather unpredictably.

I wouldn't be surprised if this "ban" isn't enforced too carefully outside of Beijing.

China just wants Beijing looking nice for the Olympics. That's what this ban on thin plastic bags is really about.

Indri

12-01-2008, 06:16

I can recycle paper in my kitchen. I can't recycle plastic. Tell me which is easier again?
You make your own paper bags? With handles? And the grocery checklist?

I too know how to make paper but the fact is that paper recycling is a manufacturing process that reduces the demand for more trees to be planted and that uses more energy and resources than making new. In large scale manufacturing, plastic is easier to recycle than paper and yeilds a variety of products of about the same quality. Plastic is more efficient and cheaper than paper. Get over it.

You have to do the same things to virgin paper. Recycled paper doesn't require the resources needed to grow the tree.
Making new paper from virgin pulp doesn't take as much energy or processing and turns out a superior product. Recycling paper is not profitable sans subsidies and does not save trees, it reduces the demand for more to be planted and in that way reduces forests. If you want to promote metal recycling then I'l be right there with you because it is easier to recycling aluminum than it is to mine and smelt bauxite ore and I believe the same can be said of all other metals. Plastic isn't yet there but it may be if oil prices climb high enough. Paper recycling will never be profitable for the same reason that glass recycling will never be profitable, there is no shortage of the resource used to make it. Logging companies own and grow whole damn forests for the sole purpose of cutting them down and replanting them. If the oil companies had a way to somehow trigger oil wells to refill they'd do it because it'd mean that they'd have a larger supply. If miners could just plant a seed to refill a mine with ore they'd do it.

I fail to see how your analogy fits. Smokers don't really have an alternative, shoppers do.
No, they really don't. The only alternative is to buy a product, probably from the people that pushed for the ban, a product that wasn't selling well before. Using government to outlaw your competition is wrong but seeing as this is China, it doesn't come as a huge shock.