AuthorTopic: Gona try this another way (Read 3625 times)

1)A class D amp could draw less than 50% of the power of an older design, for instance a Behringer NU4-6000 can put out over 3600 watts drawing 31 amps, while a Crest CA9 drew 37.8 amps while putting out only 1600 watts.2)Ok, we work with what we got.3) Bigger is better for bass.4) A lot more bigger for a few lower Hz..5) Take off all but horns if you want loud and low with just two cheap 18". If you use multiple bass-reflex cabinets and drivers wired in series-parallel, you can achieve similar efficiency, but violates premise #2.6) OK, good- you'll need them.7) I'd design a huge dual 18" FLH horn in Hornresp with an FC of 30 Hz, and surround it with wings/barn doors (sheets of plywood) to increase forward gain. The horn would be so large it would be built in at least two parts.8)No, see #5.9) No, see #5.10) No, most designs are made to either be small and cheap, or small and louder with more cost.

Cheers,Art

Thanks for taking the time to address this and add something constrictive instead of just simply telling me to give up like others have been.

The problem I have with horns is the delay path and how most of them when turned up don't actually sound like the note it was intended to play imo. The delay alone is worth not building them since I get alot of scratch djs on my system, meaning there needs to be no delay between their headphones and the sound system itself.

Quality of bass > extra db/spl

We're not trying to hit them 50-200 feet back, we're trying to hit them 1-20-40 feet in front of the speakers, not a hard task, so I think I could get away with it.

You bring up a valid enough point about 30hz but its not something I need to be 100+ db at 30hz, if it rolls off at 70-90 that should be good enough for that range ?

To be clear if these sound good when made, I have no problem stacking 16+ of them.

From what I can see of these drivers 40-80-90 range is where all its volume is.

I tried to attached more accurate specs/ts of the drivers so everybody can better see what we're dealing with or try it themselves.... but there is a 512kb limit on images so I've uploaded them on a image hosting website:https://ibb.co/jiaGrJ <--- ts mathed outhttps://ibb.co/mTifJy <--- hornresphttps://ibb.co/hizLJy <--- ts specs in winisd

I think you are confusing home audio and pro audio. With all due respect, they are not the same. I have an HSU Research subwoofer that can go down to 16hz (+/-2 db). It has a phenomenal low end, uses little wattage, and is as large as PA subwoofer, weighing in at 110Lb's. As it cost a $1,000 new, I can guarantee the driver is probably less than $100.

While it sounds good, goes low, and is great for home use, it is still NOT a Pro Audio Sub and to use it in such a manner would ruin it. It is not meant to cover bass for a large area, and it is not meant to be pushed as hard or for as long. A PA sub at an equivalent cost, might offer the same size driver and it would probably be lighter, it would not sound as good (not as detailed, accurate, punchy), but it would be up to the task. Pro Sound sacrifices quality for quantity, especially at the low end of the market, which is squarely where you sit (even with your capability to potentially build something above your normal budget).

Are there subs that can perform this stuff live? Yes, Meyer Sound, for example, makes a new element that is intended to reproduce 30-13hz, that costs upwards of 5 figures per sub and I can guarantee you cannot recreate it even if you spent decades trying to, like other brands, they have experts researching for decades. This comes down to a lot more than carpentry skill.

Mike, I am not trying to be mean, but you keep equating subs between car, home, and Pro Sound. These are not the same thing. Yes, they may have the same driver sizes. However, pro audio is very different from either of these.

If there is going to be a logical discussion going forward, where forum members can help you, you need to stop equating and making generalizing statements.

For example: Just because you like a cheaper driver in one instance does not mean that all expensive drivers are a waste of money.

Often when people offer you a scientific fact or a piece of advice which based solidly in physics, which behaves no differently in Canada, you take that as subjective opinion stating "that does not work for me."

Bottom line: Let's keep the science objective, not relative.

EDIT: The entire point of experimentation and established science is that the steps are repeatable and that the results will be the same. If the results are not the same, then the means of the experiment have changed.

"I think you are confusing home audio and pro audio. "

Not sure if I agree, the VBSS is a $90 dayton PA driver, its not a home audio driver. Sure home audio people may be using it, but the driver itself is designed for PA use, so is the inuke 3000 and the dsp in it.

So what part makes it a home audio sub then? I mean I've seen tons of vented front loaded subs with two circle ports before, hell I owned come create ones years ago that had 4 circle ports, one in each corner, I don't think its the circle port that makes it home audio cuz its commonly used in PA.

The shape? The shape looks the same as other PA subwoofers, I've seen a 21 built with nearly the exact same shape (taller then wide, deeper then wide) but it had one large circle port instead of two. Hell yorkville just came out with a self powered 18 to replace their ls801p's that is nearly the exact same shape, tall, deep, skinny sides, bottom ported, I think its called ES18P.

So if its not the driver, its not the port and its not the shape... This is a home audio sub cuz people are using it for home audio?

So if I buy a pair of JBL PA dual 18s and use them for home audio, they are home audio subs now?

I don't think its I who is confused here, or if I am can you better explain your stance since your statement makes no sense.

I'm sure your 1000w subwoofer is the cats ass, do I have the budget for that? No. I mean for that same price I could have 10-15+ rvp 18s. If I had unlimited money, unlimited power and powersoft power amps then I'd be buying 18sound drivers, but none of this is reality so I'm working within my limitations of price, genny power limits and current amps I already own.

Thanks for taking the time to address this and add something constrictive instead of just simply telling me to give up like others have been.

Quality of bass > extra db/spl

We're not trying to hit them 50-200 feet back, we're trying to hit them 1-20-40 feet in front of the speakers, not a hard task, so I think I could get away with it.

You bring up a valid enough point about 30hz but its not something I need to be 100+ db at 30hz, if it rolls off at 70-90 that should be good enough for that range ?

To be clear if these sound good when made, I have no problem stacking 16+ of them.

From what I can see of these drivers 40-80-90 range is where all its volume is.

I tried to attached more accurate specs/ts of the drivers so everybody can better see what we're dealing with or try it themselves.... but there is a 512kb limit on images so I've uploaded them on a image hosting website:https://ibb.co/jiaGrJ <--- ts mathed outhttps://ibb.co/mTifJy <--- hornresphttps://ibb.co/hizLJy <--- ts specs in winisd

So you really don't need it to provide "usable" 30 Hz, just some hint of 30 Hz. Your design will provide exactly that and I think work well for you. You don't have to transport it and make it rugged for the road, you have unlimited storage space, and no tech rider requirements. I wish I didn't have those problems.

It's you money, do what want. It seems you want the forum to affirm that your idea is the best idea for you. It IS!

Thanks for taking the time to address this and add something constrictive instead of just simply telling me to give up like others have been.

The problem I have with horns is the delay path and how most of them when turned up don't actually sound like the note it was intended to play imo. The delay alone is worth not building them since I get alot of scratch djs on my system, meaning there needs to be no delay between their headphones and the sound system itself.

Quality of bass > extra db/spl

We're not trying to hit them 50-200 feet back, we're trying to hit them 1-20-40 feet in front of the speakers, not a hard task, so I think I could get away with it.

You bring up a valid enough point about 30hz but its not something I need to be 100+ db at 30hz, if it rolls off at 70-90 that should be good enough for that range ?

To be clear if these sound good when made, I have no problem stacking 16+ of them.

From what I can see of these drivers 40-80-90 range is where all its volume is.

I tried to attached more accurate specs/ts of the drivers so everybody can better see what we're dealing with or try it themselves.... but there is a 512kb limit on images so I've uploaded them on a image hosting website:https://ibb.co/jiaGrJ <--- ts mathed outhttps://ibb.co/mTifJy <--- hornresphttps://ibb.co/hizLJy <--- ts specs in winisd

"I think you are confusing home audio and pro audio. "

Not sure if I agree, the VBSS is a $90 dayton PA driver, its not a home audio driver. Sure home audio people may be using it, but the driver itself is designed for PA use, so is the inuke 3000 and the dsp in it.

So what part makes it a home audio sub then? I mean I've seen tons of vented front loaded subs with two circle ports before, hell I owned come create ones years ago that had 4 circle ports, one in each corner, I don't think its the circle port that makes it home audio cuz its commonly used in PA.

The shape? The shape looks the same as other PA subwoofers, I've seen a 21 built with nearly the exact same shape (taller then wide, deeper then wide) but it had one large circle port instead of two. Hell yorkville just came out with a self powered 18 to replace their ls801p's that is nearly the exact same shape, tall, deep, skinny sides, bottom ported, I think its called ES18P.

So if its not the driver, its not the port and its not the shape... This is a home audio sub cuz people are using it for home audio?

So if I buy a pair of JBL PA dual 18s and use them for home audio, they are home audio subs now?

I don't think its I who is confused here, or if I am can you better explain your stance since your statement makes no sense.

I'm sure your 1000w subwoofer is the cats ass, do I have the budget for that? No. I mean for that same price I could have 10-15+ rvp 18s. If I had unlimited money, unlimited power and powersoft power amps then I'd be buying 18sound drivers, but none of this is reality so I'm working within my limitations of price, genny power limits and current amps I already own.

The home part is the low output. Not construction per se.

Now you just changed your design to a sub that starts to roll off @ 70hz? So you want to build a one note wonder?

My take? Build 3 boxes for 'fun' to test out and see how you like them.

Using your two drivers & amps:

Build the G Sub.Build a Keystone sub.Build a model in WinISD of your own design (whatever models well, try out 5 different types of subs in software for free (just time), and then build the one that looks awesome).

Then test out each, record a video, if you had a measurement mic post TF traces and report back here. I'm sure the community here would love to see your thoughts on all three and see the traces.

I'm definitely curious.

Currently? I'm in winisd crunching numbers between a vented case and a 4th order bandpass with decent results. Nothing to call 18sound about but hey for the price I paid if they don't bust into a ball of fire or change the note magically into a fart, I'll be happy if I'm getting anything near what I'm looking at.

I mean whats my alternative? Buying mdf cases that are already built from peavey/behringer/pyle pro ect that will end up costing me more then I could make myself, with lower quality wood then I'd use myself, plus won't be the dual 18 I actually want and won't be any better quality then what I'm doing. I know 1-2 grand for a single sub is casual play for you guys but thats not my budget. I can't think of anything more budget friendly then using speakers you already own to build a case and if it sounds good, I can always build/buy another one. If not I can throw out some cheap wood, its low risk, low investment, high reward, I see no reason not to try.

I got some folks helping me on some other forums with the planning, I'm a good woodworker myself and have space to do it so again its just a matter of crunching numbers, coming up with a game plan in the most educated way possible given the information open to me and then trying it.

I like the idea of the 4th order bandpass and from what I can see I'm getting a flatter wider hz range with it. I'm sure as time goes on and ideas are passed around this will be refined more.

There is a lot more going on than "simple specs", and very often, on the cheap drivers, the specs are VERY misleading.

If you are interested in simply watts, then hook up a toaster to the amplifier-but very loud, but it does "handle a lot of watts".

Regarding freq response, EVERY SINGLE speaker ever made will EASILY reproduce 1Hz. Simply apply 1 hz and watch it move in and out-even tweeters.

That does not mean that it is loud, but they DO go down to 1Hz.

What you are concerned with is ACTUAL USABLE performance.

That is often quite different than the numbers presented.

My car can easily get 100 miles per gallon. If I let it coast down a long hill.

That does not represent real driving conditions, but I CAN get that milage, under the special conditions of the measurement.

That is why you have to be careful with the "numbers"

I agree with most of what you've said, the BL and QTS was slightly off (like 0.01 off but thats enough to stop winisd)

I think the issue everybody here is stuck on is when I say 30hz is my low cut, they assume I want it flat till 30hz or 90-100+dp at 30hz when thats not what I mean at all, I don't mind if thats just where the rolloff lands, even 70 db is good enough to feel at close range while having larger spl in the rest of the note, I mean most EDM producers write their stuff around 50hz for that chest hit feel.

I cut my current subs from 30-150, I used to do 0-80 with 2 1kw b52 subs a buddy of mine had, till he blew one running 2 on a bridged ep2500 lol then got another, and blew that one on a inuke-6000 he was planning on stacking b52s on. Gona be honest donno if I'd ever buy a b52 driver but the lure of it was how low it went, I mean the b52 was lower rumble for sure but we lost that 50-100-120hz range and overall spl that I'm getting with these lower wattage drivers (I was able to put them head to head and we played them together in the same wall so we could do things like stand centered in front, bout 20 feet back and have the other turn them on/off then turn the others on/of, they sounded nice together since each had something the other was missing, thats why we did it, you could for sure tell when either was turned off so the 2k in b52s did not overpower the 4x 500w 18s to the point of not being able to tell when they got turned off).. I plan on getting a dbx 260 to be able to do a better job with my subs and be able to do a better job with hz cuts+eqing, but atm thats what I've been doing.

I'm also planning on buying the rta mic to go with the driverack 260 so I can start giving you guys examples instead of my word that you refuse to take lol.

"What you are concerned with is ACTUAL USABLE performance"Right!

However I have some limits on that, such as:1) the amp I already own2) the speakers I already own

So I'm not talking about toasters here, I'm talking about a very exact situation with a very exact driver and trying not to get derailed into the "other drivers, other amps, other things are better. Don't bother" trap.

1)The problem I have with horns is the delay path and how most of them when turned up don't actually sound like the note it was intended to play imo. 2)The delay alone is worth not building them since I get alot of scratch djs on my system, meaning there needs to be no delay between their headphones and the sound system itself.3)We're not trying to hit them 50-200 feet back, we're trying to hit them 1-20-40 feet in front of the speakers, not a hard task, so I think I could get away with it.4)You bring up a valid enough point about 30hz but its not something I need to be 100+ db at 30hz, if it rolls off at 70-90 that should be good enough for that range ?5)To be clear if these sound good when made, I have no problem stacking 16+ of them.

Mike,

1) Horns, like bass reflex cabinets, can be designed with different frequency responses, if they are not designed for flat response, they will need EQ to sound like the input.2) To have "no delay" would mean that any cabinet you use must be located at the same position as the headphones. That ain't going to happen. A 30 Hz horn would be the equivalent of moving the speaker around another 10 feet further from the DJ than using a front loaded cabinet. No big deal, you hear the headphones louder because they arrive first..A big horn could use 10dB less power to achieve the same SPL as a BR- your cost (other than wood) is 10 times less for drivers and amplifiers to achieve the same level.3)The difference between 40 feet and 160 feet is 12 dB, so obviously you can get by with less..4) At 30 Hz, a 6 dB difference sounds more than twice or half as loud.5) Fine, every doubling of cabinets and drivers gets you another 3 dB using the same amount of power. Putting your cabinets next to your building will increase output by 3-6 dB, an advantage not usually available outdoors.

The driver you propose only has about 5mm Xmax. It is a good $$value for the excursion, but pros would prefer to use drivers with around 15mm excursion, so they would only have to lug 1/3 the amount of cabinets to achieve the same output level.

At any rate, take Bjorno's design advice and get on with it, "girl" ;^).

Now you just changed your design to a sub that starts to roll off @ 70hz? So you want to build a one note wonder?

"The home part is the low output. "

What part the 17hz or the 31hz?

Cuz we're talking about 30hz I thought, so if you take out the middle part of the stock port tube it tunes to 31hz.

Isn't that now the exact PA range we're talking about?

"Now you just changed your design to a sub that starts to roll off @ 70hz? So you want to build a one note wonder?"

I'd be happy with something flat as possible 40-50 to 100 maybe higher.

I mean most edm is around 50 or 80 from what I can see being played around here (I can see my eq knobs flash or hold lights when that hz band is active), as in peaks in the 50s range and the 80s range not that i want to have something between around 70hz playing one note that isn't either of them.

When you say things like this it's hard to take you seriously. I can fart louder than 70db (seriously, that's below ambient city noise).

BTW-I didn't pay list for my JBL Double 18's I was patient and bought them used at an average cost delivered of $1200.00

Okay that seems like a great deal, even more so if they are powered it would be a steal.

Can you get another pair for the same price? How about a 3d pair?

I hope you see where I'm going with this. I'd like my system to all eventually be uniform. Aiming for a large/wide note festival setup not a 2 cab wonder system for bands. I think we're looking at this from completely different points of view.

The bandpass box I'm playing around with atm says 112.5db at 30hz, a pretty loud fart! 120db at 37hz peaking 122db at 42hz till 122db at 97hz, falling 112.5db at 138hz

Greatest thing to ever exist? no. Should I call 18sound to tell em about it? Prob not. But with some eqing and redesigning (this is rough design from 1 day of crunching) I think I could do something half decent with this.

1) Horns, like bass reflex cabinets, can be designed with different frequency responses, if they are not designed for flat response, they will need EQ to sound like the input.2) To have "no delay" would mean that any cabinet you use must be located at the same position as the headphones. That ain't going to happen. A 30 Hz horn would be the equivalent of moving the speaker around another 10 feet further from the DJ than using a front loaded cabinet. No big deal, you hear the headphones louder because they arrive first..A big horn could use 10dB less power to achieve the same SPL as a BR- your cost (other than wood) is 10 times less for drivers and amplifiers to achieve the same level.3)The difference between 40 feet and 160 feet is 12 dB, so obviously you can get by with less..4) At 30 Hz, a 6 dB difference sounds more than twice or half as loud.5) Fine, every doubling of cabinets and drivers gets you another 3 dB using the same amount of power. Putting your cabinets next to your building will increase output by 3-6 dB, an advantage not usually available outdoors.

The driver you propose only has about 5mm Xmax. It is a good $$value for the excursion, but pros would prefer to use drivers with around 15mm excursion, so they would only have to lug 1/3 the amount of cabinets to achieve the same output level.

At any rate, take Bjorno's design advice and get on with it, "girl" ;^).

Art

The delay I'm talking about is the ADDITIONAL delay from the horn path. Regular delay from speaker to dj doesn't seem to be a issue, but once upon a time I was doing a collab with another guy who hooked up some folded horns into the setup and cuz of the delays on it, it sounded as if every dj was slightly off in their mixing since I didn't have my equipment on a delay to match. This also fucked with the djs more then the regular delay from speakers to dj would be, some minor delay is doable but there comes a point where you can notice it, scratch djs really hated it, house djs just did everything in their headphones.

Thats what I'm trying to avoid.

Plus I felt like his folded horns changed the note into something other then what the producer meant for it to sound like, growls, dnb and dub, the details got lost.

"The driver you propose only has about 5mm Xmax. It is a good $$value for the excursion, but pros would prefer to use drivers with around 15mm excursion, so they would only have to lug 1/3 the amount of cabinets to achieve the same output level."

If I can get 4+ of the drivers for less then 1 then in theory I'm up overall and have a wider bassnote.

"3)The difference between 40 feet and 160 feet is 12 dB, so obviously you can get by with less.."

This is more or less my point: I don't need insane 32 inch m-force subs for people who are within 40 feet (in fact they advised to me that you rope it off so nobodys within 20 feet lol)

"At any rate, take Bjorno's design advice and get on with it, "girl" ;^)."

I plan on crunching some numbers and getting some feedback across a few different forums before I actually cut any wood but I fully intend to build some cases. I'm not the only person locally to me on this quest either, I know 2 other people with these drivers trying to do the same thing so I think between us we'll come up with something that works and be able to put different designs verse each other.

So you really don't need it to provide "usable" 30 Hz, just some hint of 30 Hz. Your design will provide exactly that and I think work well for you. You don't have to transport it and make it rugged for the road, you have unlimited storage space, and no tech rider requirements. I wish I didn't have those problems.

It's you money, do what want. It seems you want the forum to affirm that your idea is the best idea for you. It IS!

" It seems you want the forum to affirm that your idea is the best idea for you."

What? LolNo.

I'm asking the forums to try and help me get the most out of a cheap driver I already have, with the power I already have.

You guys must have used a wide range of cabs over the years, I know I have in the last 10+ years of doing this. So I was honestly hope'n to talk to someone who may have used a sb1000 or some other lower wattage cab designs who would have a opinion or some feedback about this from experience instead of just scoffing at the idea when we're talking about just buying some wood. I mean I don't understand why you think I don't need to make them tour ready, I've said multiple times I don't want to buy cheap mdf cabs and would prefer to use birch, birch with line-x on it and metal corners is what is on your JBL's so why is that not good enough for my cabs? I mean I've torn carpit off cabs and put line-x on them, hell I've even put line-x on mdf cabs and it turned that crap into something that survives being thrown around by roadies. I think your confused about what this is about and are too focused on the price of the drivers as if the birch or line x is somehow lower grade cuz of the speaker.

Kinda one of those situations where if you got nothing constructive to add why are you even posting here?

The delay I'm talking about is the ADDITIONAL delay from the horn path. Regular delay from speaker to dj doesn't seem to be a issue, but once upon a time I was doing a collab with another guy who hooked up some folded horns into the setup and cuz of the delays on it, it sounded as if every dj was slightly off in their mixing since I didn't have my equipment on a delay to match. This also fucked with the djs more then the regular delay from speakers to dj would be, some minor delay is doable but there comes a point where you can notice it, scratch djs really hated it, house djs just did everything in their headphones.

Thats what I'm trying to avoid.

Plus I felt like his folded horns changed the note into something other then what the producer meant for it to sound like, growls, dnb and dub, the details got lost.

Most DJ's want monitors. However I just don't see how 10ft of horn path is going to be any different than if the stage was 10' deeper.

As far as not delaying the mains, that's just fucked up. Behringer Shark's are like $50.00 so there is just no excuse. You had to have a mess in the crossover region.

Most DJ's want monitors. However I just don't see how 10ft of horn path is going to be any different than if the stage was 10' deeper.

As far as not delaying the mains, that's just fucked up. Behringer Shark's are like $50.00 so there is just no excuse. You had to have a mess in the crossover region.

Yeah djs obviously get monitors.

Are you suggesting djs should have horn monitors next to their headphones? Cuz if not then your really talking about 10 foot of horn path and 10 foot to get to the dj, thats 20 feet. Say what you will but I disliked adding delay to the system it didn't make sense to me so we never got those folded horns back out again.

I don't need to run a delay on my mains since they are bass reflex, front loaded vented cabs same as everything else, there is very little if any delay from each other so as long as they are playing with each other, the delay to the dj isn't big enough to be mentioning. However the horn delay is worth mentioning since the rest of my system is not on delay and the added delay is hard to ignore. For example, the same guy with horns would run delays on the rest of his speakers so they played at the same time as his horns so djs would be forced to mix in their headphones and again hated it, this was at gigs with just his gear.

Not really here to get into a delay arguement but I guess here we are.... From my experience with horns its not worth it since you lose detail in your low end growls, dub and dnb that you get to keep with front loaded vented reflex cases. That and the delay that would force me to delay the rest of my system, making it less responsive for people who used it just seems like a bad trade off for a few spl. I'd rather sound good instead of loud, again we're talking about 1-20-40 foot listening range not 160 feet out.