FT is pretty sceptical, it just doesn't jump to conclusions as quickly as Randi's bunch. Certainly not on the fluffy new age "crystals are healing the cosmos" side of the world, but also not on the "we worship science as the one true god because science can already answer every question that will ever be asked" side either. Its kind of a "serious questions deserve serious responses" approach, which I find quite agreeable- if there is one thing that annoys me it is being preached at by a fundamentalist of any religion.

That's not to say that Randi doesn't to a great job of debunking a lot of nonsense that really needs to be debunked.

Of course they look fake - there are no crop circles that are known to not be fakes.

Really?

While I cannot vouch for the authencity of the above pic, I'm very sure crop circles with similar or more complicated (mathematical) patterns do exist in real life, even in the rice paddies of Japan. (maybe someone here from England or the US, where it is said to be most prolific, has seen it?).

If you're inferring that they're all just the works of bored pranksters, then I don't quite agree. Basically, what kind of technology/organization can (as it is witnessed to occur under such conditions):

1. Produce such a complex, mathematically precise and large scale (300 - 900 ft diameter) image in under a couple of hours

2. Produce it in low-light conditions (without any artifical lighting of course), without any (pole) markers.

3. Produce a drastically bent-over "weaving"/swirling pattern with the plant stalks without any breakage (plants are still alive), as opposed to just beating them down with planks etc.

Well, that question's been thoroughly covered in the past, but I suppose not here.

Obviously SWP knows that crop circles "exist" - he's asserting that they are all known to not be caused by alien/paranormal/whatever forces.

To answer your specific points:

1) A team of people, lots of preparation, and computer modelling. No problem.

2) Low-light is surprisingly easy to work in, once you get used to it. But from what I remember, they often do use marker poles, they just don't leave any holes behind! Again, this is where the team comes in - you just get people to hold the poles vertical for you.

3) Don't mistake these growing plants for dry straw. Yes, straw breaks, but the lowest parts of the growing plant are very pliable - especially in damp conditions.

Obviously SWP knows that crop circles "exist" - he's asserting that they are all known to not be caused by alien/paranormal/whatever forces.

I didn't even go that far.

I said that none have been proven to be caused by any sort of "other worldly" force. I suspect that while many are suspected of being faked in the ususal means, that it hasn't actually been proven either.

As cfmdobbie stated, the complex patterns with precision can be done quite easily with some planning. As I understand it, usually a rope is enough to control distance.

From what I've read, about 80% of the crop circles are known to be man made, the remaining 20% not explained. They may still be man made, but there are some known cases that are very hard to explain. Like one case where such a large number of crop circles appeared overnight and unseen, an army of circle makers must have been active that night because one circle must have been made about every 30 seconds. While it must be quite easy to remain unseen at night for a small group of people, a group of people the size of an army must have had a very hard time to remain unnoticed.That doesn't mean it must have had an unwordly origin, it's just that a number of those crop circles remain unexplained.

AFAIK, 100% of crop circles are man-made. Some of these these teams have been going for over a decade, and they're very good at it. the best teams actually do it WITH the farmers permission - and split the proceeds they get from charging 'researchers' admission

As for mathematical formulaes for the circles - they usually all come down to bits of string. These lend themselves to proscribing:

Circles, Ellipses, parabolas & hyperbolas.

Using these as the base curves, and some stright lines connecting the points, you can create the patterns they do. There is certainly an art to it

the best thing I heard was some guy recently going on about them as being one the best current forms of 'folk art'. By being anonymously, its being done for community enjoyment as opposed to personal gain. the creators should be recognised as artists in their own right.

Yes, you are right. It's one of most easy way how can you discover if that circle is fake, or not. BTW some circles have increased amount of radioactivity in them... So if someone created them artificaly...

When someone starts talk about all that circles in crops are artificial he is obviously doesn't know about that circles in the medieval ages. No circlemakers back then. People weren't as lazy to watch the field long enough to take fork and drive out ALL circlemakers.

On a side note, current amateur base of a crop circle research is underpaid, and lacks scientific apparatuses to tell the difference between real ones and fakes with reasonable degree of success. Circlemakers are attempting to receive more popularity, so trying to discover if that circle is fake, or not is sometimes useless, there are too much fakes on one or two possibly verificably real ones, and when you are appearing on the site, you are just driving them to create more fakes.

So what are 'real' circles? I assume you mean circles not created by circle makers?If you want to tell the difference between 'fake' ones and 'real' ones, you actually have to be sure that there are in fact 'real' ones. AFAIK, nobody has witnessed 'real' ones being created. A number of them might be unexplained, but that doesn't mean they're 'real'.And if you know that there are in fact real ones, you have to know how they are created. But nobody ever saw a 'real' one being created, so how do you tell the difference? Maybe 'real' ones are created by aliens, using poles and strings

So what are 'real' circles? I assume you mean circles not created by circle makers?If you want to tell the difference between 'fake' ones and 'real' ones, you actually have to be sure that there are in fact 'real' ones. AFAIK, nobody has witnessed 'real' ones being created. A number of them might be unexplained, but that doesn't mean they're 'real'.And if you know that there are in fact real ones, you have to know how they are created. But nobody ever saw a 'real' one being created, so how do you tell the difference?

Why? I don't recall that anyone knows how to create a gravitation. Does it mean I should ignore gravitation?

I mentioned medieval ages. No circle makers here, because crops were important as food. Guess what would happen to a medieval circle maker.

It's kinda ugly that medieval references are better for studying "crop" circles, than current appearance.

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Maybe 'real' ones are created by aliens, using poles and strings

Eek pervert he accuses aliens of doing manual work, not even some people on the Earth are so low. How could you?

Why? I don't recall that anyone knows how to create a gravitation. Does it mean I should ignore gravitation?

Ummm, I fail to see how this relates to crop circles

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I mentioned medieval ages. No circle makers here, because crops were important as food. Guess what would happen to a medieval circle maker.

I don't know if there were no circle makers there. Crops are still important as food, aren't they? Even though medieval circle makers might get the most horrible punishment if they would be cought, that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Even today in some countries, for example pot smokers run the risk of terrible punishment, but they still do it. And I suppose in the medieval ages, you would have even less chance to get cought making crop circles.With weird phenomenons like this I believe the safest bet is probably the most obvious solution. I suppose that also back then, making crop circles would be a kinda fun thing to do for some people.

There is motivation to grow drugs, even if you don't want to sell them... saying there was no reason to have a crop circle (man made) in the dark ages is kind of crazy, as important as food crops are, power is every bit as important and people were very superstitious (because well, they didn't know much). Crop circles would likely be used for control, through fear, possibly to give more power to the local church, or maybe to make an enemy wary of using crops... or of course as a practical joke...

I had photographs of medieval circle makers on my old TRS 1100-ad harddrive. But those darn circle makers removed the drive and used it to stomp some wheat into a triangle in an effort to prove that they were not the circle makers.

Marijuana is much better than alcohol or nicotine. If my granny would smoke it she wouldn't be addicted to something worse.BTW marijuana works nice against anorexia and chronic pains. (For example stomach after surgery, or your back.) Marijuana works nicely against stress, so less murders happen. There weren't any reports about significant health problems caused by long time using Marijuana. So basically when they were unsuccessful with alcohol, in time of prohibition, they are trying it with another drugs some somewhat harmful, some harmless (or at least in comparison with alternatives.)

So back on topicI think circle makers are rather new things. Something like alligators in the city severs.

Re cfmdobbieI hope you can read Latin. If not you have a problem. Library might be the answer, actually big library.

Most of those 'punishments' never actually took place in medieval times. All those wonderful looking spiky contraptions were invented by the Victorians (riding high on a diet of Mary Shelley, Edgar Allan Poe etc. as well as being keen on the old cast-iron), and a few by the Spanish Inquisition (spike up the bum ones) and their use was largelly confined to continental Europe and on the Jews or heretics.

Most medieval law was meted out via fines or penances, but this doesn't make exciting history, sorry.

In fact I'm sure of it. If nobody would risk those punishments, they wouldn't exist.

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Marijuana is much better than alcohol or nicotine.

It all depends on the (ab-)user. Marijuana *can* be much worse than both alcohol and nicotine combined if it's abused or if it doesn't work well for you. A well known fact for example is that THC can make people psychotic and it that can ruin short-term memory.

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