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I'm teaching my son to play piano. I'm not a professional teacher, and if that bothers you, please stop reading, as I don't want this to turn into a debate about whether or not I should be teaching my child to play piano.

My son is currently working through the Faber Piano adventures Primer book, and we're about half way through (Russian Folk Song).

There are a few things that I've noticed (patterns), and I am hoping for some good advice.

1) I've noticed the he prefers to play with flat fingers, and his palms below the keys. He sits high enough in a chair where he can comfortably keep his hands above the keys with rounded fingers, but he keeps playing with flat fingers on the edge of the keys. When I correct him on this, he will play with "proper" hand position for a few seconds, then regress back to flatness.

How much effort should I spend correcting this? Should I just halt everything until he gets the finger position right? Or should I just keep casually correcting him every now and then hoping it fixes itself? How important is this at such an early stage?

2) There's a lot of heavy arm movement. With each key he strikes, the elbow and arm are visibly moving quite a distance. While this helps with very succinct notes, it's visually very noisy. Should I be taking measures to have him play with a quieter wrist/arm? I find that when I do, he starts slurring the notes, and they begin to overlap each other sloppily. How important is this?

3) My son loves looking at his hands when he plays, but when he does, he makes musical mistakes. I find that he plays the best when:

a) I'm pointing at the notes with a pencil while he playsb) I make him say the note names aloud when he plays

Ideally, I'd like him to be able to play without either of these crutches, but when I do, he starts watching his hands, and not the music, and makes note errors.

I'm currently giving him 45-minute lessons six days a week, and he's been going for three months now, and like I said, we're about 1/2 way through the first Piano Adventures series (doing the lesson, performance, popular repertoire, and gold star performance books). Is this progress too fast? Too slow? My current methodology is to not move on in a particular song until he can play it 3 times in a row by himself metrically even, and without any mistakes (including missed dynamics).

Any advice in general for someone in my situation? Please don't tell me to hire a professional teacher as that is financially not an option right now, and I'd rather him have lessons from me than no lessons at all. Thanks for any input!

1) I've noticed the he prefers to play with flat fingers, and his palms below the keys. He sits high enough in a chair where he can comfortably keep his hands above the keys with rounded fingers, but he keeps playing with flat fingers on the edge of the keys. When I correct him on this, he will play with "proper" hand position for a few seconds, then regress back to flatness.

From a developmental standard, he might not have the strength/muscle tone/coordination. He is very young. Without time off (one day is not enough), muscles don'e get the rest they need.

Vision tracking is also developmental. His eye strength to focus on music notes might not be able to track the notes for extended periods, his eyes get fatigued. You might want him to have an eye appointment after piano lessons with an pediatric opthamologist to test his tracking. If he is fatigued regularly he will need glasses to relieve the strain. It will cause headaches for him unchecked. You are tracking for him by using the pencil and when he memorizes the notes and says them aloud, he is not dependent on reading them.

The skills you are requiring are not developmentally appropriate for a 4 year old.

I agree with much of what's been said so far. It appears that Mooseknuckle's concerns are on target and that the lesson activities she describes are appropriate.

I do believe that after that many lessons for that many months, the student should be farther along in Primer, or that the Primer material has been learned to a very high degree of mastery. It seems that readiness may be a factor. Piano Adventures Primer was designed for the 6-7 year old in mind. A 4-year old's cognitive and motor development are unlikely to be up to the task of gaining a true understanding and mastery of the concepts presented in PA Primer. This is why the Fabers created the "My First Piano Adventures" series. That series targets the natural abilities and interests of the 4-6 year old student in a more appropriate and more engaging way. I would encourage Mooseknuckle to give that series a try and return to PA Primer in a year or two. (Or explore another series aimed at younger beginners - something like Music Moves for Piano.)

"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

I agree with what's been said. Also, the Faber Piano Adventures is for children ages 7 or 8 I believe. If this were my student I would be doing My First Piano Adventures, which has a lot more focus on big musical concepts (high/low, loud/soft, fast/slow), singing, games, and very short songs.

I assume the 6 (45) minute lessons are really just practice sessions. If he enjoys it and can maintain his focus for that long, got for it. Otherwise, break it up by doing musical games, listening to music, singing along to music, improvising at the piano, etc. This part of his development has a lot to do with imagination and creativity. Why not treat this more as exploratory rather than product driven (learning the next song, finishing the book)?

To address your concerns about his playing, without actually seeing what he's doing it's hard to say definitively. So what I have to say next is based on the very limited information you've provided:

1) Flat finger playing is fine, keep reminding him, but don't make a big deal out of it2) I assume you mean that his arms and wrist are bouncing and are pliable. Are his shoulders high? If they are relaxed, the bounciness if actually a good thing. However, I'm not sure if you mean with the elbow movement vertically or horizontally. Not know what this is could be a concern, but again, not a big deal. He's little and most likely trying his best to play without that slurring. By over doing the bounciness of the wrist this can help, especially since his fingers do not have much strength at this time.3)Pointing while he plays is fine. Him memorizing and looking at his hands is also fine. The music is very simple and easy to memorize.

My 4-5 year old students enjoy the Faber series "My First Piano Adventures", books A, B, and C. They are very age-appropriate in my opinion and I agree with Kreisler that you could try using those first, then return to the purple primer book. Perhaps you wouldn't have to use all 3 early beginner books (the A, B, and C) before returning to the purple primer.

OK, I'm not allowed to say find a professional teacher. So I won't. But many piano teachers would be wrong for your son at age four anyway.

I'm probably not allowed to suggest that your son may be simply too young to be playing the piano, at least according to your regimen. So I won't.

What I will say is that I wish this lad were singing and dancing, with his parents, and his grandparents, and his cousins, and his aunts and uncles, and with other kids his age, instead of learning the piano. Give him a drum and a tonette first, and let him accompany your piano playing, not his.

Then find a music school that has a program such as MusikGarten, or KinderMusik, or Music Together, or Music for Young Children, or Orff, or Dalcroze, or one of the myriad nurturing music programs for children. You *can* afford these.

A couple years from now, with your son grounded in music, you can revisit the piano idea.

Hi MK, I've started teaching my daughter piano around age 4 also. She's 9 now is doing well... When I started teaching her, she had been in a early childhood music class since she was a baby for and she had just started Suzuki violin. I felt like we could not afford a piano teacher so I thought I'd try to teach her. I used many ideas/concepts that I observed at Suzuki and the early childhood music program. I tried my best to make our piano sessions FUN with an emhasis on AURAL skills rather than note reading and technique. I got into some books/note reading when she was around 5-6. I made a music staff with tape on the floor and she would step on certain notes. We'd do lots of fun ear training with that too. Sometime around kindergarten she told me she wanted to take lessons with a "real piano teacher" I asked what she ment by a "real paino teacher teacher" and she told me that she wanted an old lady teacher that gives lessons to other kids in her house. So I found a "real piano" and the lessons were kind of boaring for her after all the fun we had at home with our piano "lessons." So I continued teaching her using our games, ear training and some of the basic books from Faber, and Bastain. When she was 7 I felt like she ready for things that I couldn't give her (like recitals, competitions...) She now been with a very experianced traditional "old lady teacher" for 2 years now and she's doing very well. Looking back, I'm glad I started her off on piano and I honestly think she would have lost interest if I made her sit a at the piano for 45 minutes practice sessions with a book in front in front of her. But of course kids are different... Does your son seem to enjoy the time your spending with him?

I guess everyone here has heard that Van Cliburn mother taught him as a small boy up until he went to Juliard (sic). I wonder she how she taught him when he was small?

As I recall, his mother, Rildia Bee O'Bryan, studied with Arthur Friedheim, who was a pupil of Franz Liszt, was a very advanced and accomplished pianist in her own right. And she was also a piano teacher!

"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

“I'm teaching my son to play piano. I'm not a professional teacher, and if that bothers you, please stop reading, as I don't want this to turn into a debate about whether or not I should be teaching my child to play piano.”(Sounds like the dictatorial propoganda of the Nazis)

It is like a grim hangover from the Spanish Inquisition to torture a 4 year old at the piano for 45 minutes, 6 days a week ... and what is worse,to discover that the persecutor is a rank amateur.

As a Piano Teacher of longstanding I’m totally with my colleague sonataplayer when he suggests ...

“What is the rush? I believe if you waited until he was six or seven he'd progress much faster and perhaps enjoy his lessons more.”

If only the Internet gave the power to rap Mooseknucklesharply over the knuckles ... I’d do it with zest.

A boy of 4 should be kicking a football ... or better still having his close family reading him magic stories at bedtime ... I was lucky to have a father who read us Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn ... while sitting round a winter fire.

Boy's of 4 might not be able to read and write ...but crickey, they can dream.

I guess everyone here has heard that Van Cliburn mother taught him as a small boy up until he went to Juliard (sic). I wonder she how she taught him when he was small?

As I recall, his mother, Rildia Bee O'Bryan, studied with Arthur Friedheim, who was a pupil of Franz Liszt, was a very advanced and accomplished pianist in her own right. And she was also a piano teacher!

Yes, I realize that. I'm pretty sure she started him off around 3 years old. I'd just be interested to know what she did with him at such a young age. 45 minute sessions with a book? Probably not...

I guess everyone here has heard that Van Cliburn mother taught him as a small boy up until he went to Juliard (sic). I wonder she how she taught him when he was small?

As I recall, his mother, Rildia Bee O'Bryan, studied with Arthur Friedheim, who was a pupil of Franz Liszt, was a very advanced and accomplished pianist in her own right. And she was also a piano teacher!

Yes, I realize that. I'm pretty sure she started him off around 3 years old. I'd just be interested to know what she did with him at such a young age. 45 minute sessions with a book? Probably not...

Yes, and I'm guessing we are not comparing apples to apples here. The OP obviously isn't a piano teacher or they wouldn't be asking these questions. We don't know of their abilities at playing piano, but I think from what they've posted it's fair to assume they know how to play some piano.

I think the key for MK here is to concentrate more on music-making and creativity with music games, singing, dancing, etc. rather than a strict regimin at the piano at this stage in the child's development.

The story never ends ... all those cloth-eared parentswho believe they have sired a Mozart.

Give us a break ... the van Cliburns are one in a million ... or perhaps a zillion.

Also very true, btb. The vast majority of children who learn piano are not talented enough to have a career, and therefore there is no need to rush things. However, even if this child *is* the next Van Cliburn a strict approach like this might squelch his creativity. So it's important I think to know if this child is enjoying his lessons.

Van Cliburn's early training was quite strict. And came from his mother.

"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

Van Cliburn's early training was quite strict. And came from his mother.

Poor fellow. Think of the baggage in later life. He could have started with folk dancing and Kodaly singing.

Peter, VC got some serious baggage! Met him at Interlochen back in '63 at an after concert party. He seemed to have "issues" even then.

"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

I think the key for MK here is to concentrate more on music-making and creativity with music games, singing, dancing, etc. rather than a strict regimin at the piano at this stage in the child's development. [/quote]

Actually, VC is very important to this discussion. Every 2 to 3 months, a parent comes into the forum telling us "I'm going to teach my child piano. Tell me how to do it. And, oh, BTW, don't tell me not to." Even good teachers, excellent musicians, such as Mrs. Cliburn, are not necessarily the best teacher for their own child. That's not to say you cannot be successful, as obviously, history is replete with success stories of home schooling (Lincoln comes to mind) successes. Obviously, Mrs. Cliburn brought Van to a level of pianism few others achieve, but he still needed years at Juilliard to become a top artist. It's entirely possible that many other teachers where he grew up, could have achieved a similar level of excellence, and perhaps with his mother supervising his home practice, having an outside teacher could have been even more effective and also not imparted some of the baggage he carried through life.

I'm fully supportive of home schoolers. In fact, many of my best students have come from that environment. One major difference though is that you're teaching general knowledge and skills and in the other, you're teaching highly specific, detailed skill and knowledge. A second difference is that in teaching an instrument, it takes more than book learning - not only actual skill is important, but it takes time to learn effecting teaching techniques. Some of us learn "how to teach" faster than others, but most of us, if we're being honest and candid, would admit that our first 10 years of teaching probably weren't our finest!

"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

I don't have any delusions that I'm raising a Mozart here.My child doesn't dread lessons; he looks forward to the time we spend together each evening in front of the piano.He has friends, he takes dance lessons (enjoys those too), is on a tee-ball team, and I take him swimming every weekend, and we do nature hikes in the park behind our house.

Basically, we have a pretty normal father/son relationship, and he often goes up and plays the piano outside of lessons, and is always quick to show off his playing to other folks at church, or the grand-parents house. Hope we can stop the talk about this now.

Thanks for suggesting the other set of Faber books, I wish I had gone into those from the start. I feel like I'm already pretty invested in the Primer set, and I'm relatively happy with the results I'm getting here. I'm also elated to hear that the flat-finger thing isn't a huge worry. I'm a bit dubious about the claims that his fingers aren't getting enough rest, or that his eyes are being unduly strained. He has an optometrist, and his vision is fine, and the notes in the Primer are pretty big.

I realize that that horizontal note tracking probably just takes practice, so I wont worry too much about that either. I find that if I cover his hands with a book while he's playing, he does much better at reading the notes and not making mistakes. I think it's just a matter of getting him used to reading with his eyes and translating that to the fingers. I just don't want him to develop a consistent habit of relying on (faulty) memory to play the melodies.

Someone also commented that our daily lessons are probably more like "practice sessions." That's correct. I usually spend the time introducing the new concepts that come with the new song, and talking about them, then listening to him play the song, finding the tougher parts, isolating them, and giving him the tools he needs to overcome the problem, and repeating the phrase until he can play it confidently. Then we put it back in the context of the song, and play it fluidly. I LOVE the teacher accompaniments!

The last 10 minutes of the lesson (his favorite part) are when we "review." Review is going back and playing many of the old songs he already knows, and can play easily... his favorites right now are Hot Cross Buns, Train Song, Men From Mars, Banana Split, and Rodeo.

He's a pretty happy kid, and I'm a pretty happy dad. Thanks for the advice, and if anyone has more, I could use it.

Hi:I am going to give you a resource that is not really related to what you post, but will benefit your young child overall in the journey of learning music. Check out this link: TeachBabyMusicAtHomeAs a piano teacher, I have a copy of this software about teaching music to your baby, and I have to say that I am amaze about their quality, content and method! Give your baby a gift of perfect pitch! Yes it is possible, read link 1 and link 2

Why start to teach your baby reading, math, and music so early?

Because......

50% of a person's ability to learn is developed in the first four years of life. Another 30% is developed by the eighth birthday. Those vital years lay down the pathways on which all future learning is based. After age ten, the branches that haven't made connections die off. Youngsters are their own best educators, parents their best first teachers.

This 5-point checklist comes from the introductory page of chapter 7, entitled The vital years, from the world's best-selling book of 1999, The Learning Revolution, by Gordon Dryden and Dr. Jeannette Vos.

50% of a person's ability to learn is developed in the first four years of life. Another 30% is developed by the eighth birthday..

A commercial product is not a good resource for giving information on learning. The statistics are set out in a way to give misleading impressions to an uninformed public. Children go through developmental stages, including how their minds develop and this is discounted. It is disturbing to even see this advertisement here, quoted as information on learning. I cannot speak about the product on music. It may be perfectly fine, and EZpiano may be a judge to that if s/he has tested it.

I don't have any delusions that I'm raising a Mozart here.My child doesn't dread lessons; he looks forward to the time we spend together each evening in front of the piano.He has friends, he takes dance lessons (enjoys those too), is on a tee-ball team, and I take him swimming every weekend, and we do nature hikes in the park behind our house.

Basically, we have a pretty normal father/son relationship, and he often goes up and plays the piano outside of lessons, and is always quick to show off his playing to other folks at church, or the grand-parents house. Hope we can stop the talk about this now.

Thanks for suggesting the other set of Faber books, I wish I had gone into those from the start. I feel like I'm already pretty invested in the Primer set, and I'm relatively happy with the results I'm getting here. I'm also elated to hear that the flat-finger thing isn't a huge worry. I'm a bit dubious about the claims that his fingers aren't getting enough rest, or that his eyes are being unduly strained. He has an optometrist, and his vision is fine, and the notes in the Primer are pretty big.

I realize that that horizontal note tracking probably just takes practice, so I wont worry too much about that either. I find that if I cover his hands with a book while he's playing, he does much better at reading the notes and not making mistakes. I think it's just a matter of getting him used to reading with his eyes and translating that to the fingers. I just don't want him to develop a consistent habit of relying on (faulty) memory to play the melodies.

Someone also commented that our daily lessons are probably more like "practice sessions." That's correct. I usually spend the time introducing the new concepts that come with the new song, and talking about them, then listening to him play the song, finding the tougher parts, isolating them, and giving him the tools he needs to overcome the problem, and repeating the phrase until he can play it confidently. Then we put it back in the context of the song, and play it fluidly. I LOVE the teacher accompaniments!

The last 10 minutes of the lesson (his favorite part) are when we "review." Review is going back and playing many of the old songs he already knows, and can play easily... his favorites right now are Hot Cross Buns, Train Song, Men From Mars, Banana Split, and Rodeo.

He's a pretty happy kid, and I'm a pretty happy dad. Thanks for the advice, and if anyone has more, I could use it.

This sounds pretty healthy to me at this point. Perhaps in the future he will be able to take lessons, but I think this is great father/son time and you appear to be keeping it fun for him.

You can certainly do some of the types of things found in My First Piano Adventures without investing them. There are numerous websites out there and you can search this forum as well for games to do with preschoolers. I find with the young ones you can never have too many activities in your back pocket .

Here is another commercial resource if you want to teach your kid play scales.

Hope you will not feel too disturbing when I share resources here, or I can be selfish just keep the good things to myself. If moderator think this is an advertisement, he is welcome to take this down.

Ez, my problem was not that it was a commercial product (advertisement) but that it was twisting facts for the sake of advertisement, and thus giving misinformation on learning. There are developmental stages in learning. Earlier is not necessarily better for some things, because of these stages.

Ez, my problem was not that it was a commercial product (advertisement) but that it was twisting facts for the sake of advertisement, and thus giving misinformation on learning. There are developmental stages in learning. Earlier is not necessarily better for some things, because of these stages.