I have spoken before about the spiteful name calling that some of the the CavalierChat members indulge in.
It seems that the moderators are not prepared to try and rein in certain members.

Robust debate is one thing, but there is no exploring of issues in what is being written, just verbal bullying.

A few months ago someone choose to issue an invitation to me......
"you could bring along your broomstick"

She has now posted on that forum..............
"I think Margaret C should consider a new 'familiar'. The present one is an embarrassment (ok, this is a joke.You know something not to be taken seriously.>bg) Hang on, I think I may just have described BH?"

Libellous comment is never a joke.

I have decided I will not ignore these comments any more. This is on a cavalier breeders forum, we are both Cavalier Club members and so I will be putting in a complaint to the UK Cavalier Club.

Bet, you are also a Cavalier Club Member, I suggest you print off the very nasty personal comments published by the small group of CavalierChat members that have been so very rude to you, and send in a complaint

chloe92us

6th November 2009, 01:17 AM

Margaret- I think you mean Cavalier Chat, not Talk. ;)

Margaret C

6th November 2009, 01:20 AM

Margaret- I think you mean Cavalier Chat, not Talk. ;)

Oh dear senior moment, many thanks, I will edit it

Jay

6th November 2009, 02:24 AM

There are certainly a few people on that forum who worry themselves into fits over Bet. It is interesting that the moderators aren't warning them about their behavior. It is very specific in their rules about not flaming.

I find these kinds of postings childish and very boorish. They certainly don't show these people in the best of light.
J.

antigone

6th November 2009, 04:45 AM

I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS!

What in the world is going on? Why do people fail to realize that they should be grateful to these people who have been working and taking their time, money and energy to try to protect Cavaliers who, after all, are living beings with feelings and the right to lives free of inherited disease. I have no way of understanding this. If I had or was the carrier of a serious genetic disease, would these same people be saying that I should be having children who would likely suffer?

I have never read ONE THING that even hints that Margaret or Bet are trying to do anything now other than protect Cavaliers and their owners. Are these poor dogs just a commodity to be bred for the glory of people? How can people who are trying their hardest to protect people and animals from suffering be vilified? What kind of person would do that? By calling people ugly names and distorting their motives, they are showing that Cavaliers as living and breathing beings do not really matter to them at all.

I (fortunately) was never exposed to this kind of behavior before I got my poor little dog with SM. I am appalled. I did not think adults who present themselves as educated and civilized would ever act this way. I would love to hear an explanation or some attempt at justification for how these people are treating both of you and also anybody else who is simply trying to do what is honest and right.

Kathy

MARK MARSHALL

6th November 2009, 09:09 AM

I have asked Mr Mynott to explain what is happening to his Forum.

My post is self explanatory ?

Mark Marshall.

Justine

6th November 2009, 09:21 AM

Sticks and stones......they are the ignorant ones,who cant have a normal GROWN UP discussion without name calling,rise above.They are just soooo thick,they cant find the words other than childish slants,GO GIRL.........

Yorkysue

6th November 2009, 09:52 AM

Sticks and stones......they are the ignorant ones,who cant have a normal GROWN UP discussion without name calling,rise above.They are just soooo thick,they cant find the words other than childish slants,GO GIRL.........

Hang on - isn't your statement about them being 'thick' just falling into the same trap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Bet

6th November 2009, 09:55 AM

Thanks Folks for your Shoulders ,Margaret ,I did'nt know I could complain to the UK CKCS CLUB, I had already Printed the Worst of the Abusive Comments off.

To-day they will be winging their way to the UK CKCS CLUB Committee.

I will not be giving them the satisfaction of replying to the Vociferious Few on their comments to me any more ,I am not going to be reading the Cavalier Chat List.

I have only been saying for the Past couple of years ,that I feel ,in my opinion ,how the Cavaliers have altered.

Smaller Heads, Shorter Legs, Longer Backs.

Whether this has anything to do with the Cavaliers and their SM Problem , I just don't know.

This week as a Result of the APGAW Report ,the News Papers here in Britain, have latched onto the Fact and Printed about the poor wee Cavalier writhing in Agony because of SM ,and the Papers have said this is because the Cavaliers have been Bred with Heads so Small ,the Brain outgrows the Skull.

How this can be over-come I just don't know ,.

There are now so many Cavaliers around to-day with Small Heads,I have read it described as the Modern Look.

As I have mentioned ,the Cavaliers ,in the 1930's ,in order to get the Flat Type of Head required for the Cavalier Breed ,the Dome Shape of the King Charles Spaniel was altered ,

Is the Malformed Bone that so many Cavaliers have to-day, I believe it's about 90%,a result of what happened in the 1930's.

Then because the Cavalier Breeders in the late 1980's , and early 1990's, seemed to have started to alter the Shape of the Cavaliers' Head again was this the reason for SM making it's appearance in Cavaliers. .

I had sent Dr I Mc Gonnell ,who is researching the Fetus Research at the Moment, Photos of Present Day Cavaliers and Photos of the Older Type Heads of Cavaliers ,to compare them.

I had word back from here saying that maybe there could be a Link somewhere .but she didnt know.

Also Dr C Rusbridge has recently put on her Neurological Web Site about the Minaturization of Cavaliers.

Is it possible that ,for the Cavalier Breed ,this perhaps could be a Link with their SM Disease.

I read in Professor Sir P Bateson's initial Report ,his mention about our Cavalier Breed and their SM Problem .So it is causing concern every where .

I do think that ,because the SM Problem could be so wide-spread in Cavaliers, and it might be a while before the CM/SM Genes are found, that the only course open to Cavalier Breeders is to MRI Scan their Breeding Stock to find out if there is a Syrinx Present.

Unfortunately ,it might be too late now, since there are so many Cavaliers with Smaller Heads,if this could be Link with SM, that it's possible there will be many many Cavalier Carriers of the CM/SM Genes.

I really do think that the Cavalier Breed is in Dire Straits at the moment, will it ever recover , only time will tell .

Justine

6th November 2009, 11:52 AM

Just to say,i emailed some one selling Cavs and asked all the questions,there web and advert stated...That all their dogs were health checked,certs provided etc etc,i was quietly impressed,so when i recieved their email back,it was abusive and they were telling me i was being some kind of smart a..e.They are based here and have this fancy web site,well i was shocked.So i emailed back saying....With that att.you have said it all.They denied any health issues with the breed etc etc.I would love to tell who they are but cant.

sins

6th November 2009, 12:03 PM

I have asked Mr Mynott to explain what is happening to his Forum
I'm sure he must be wondering himself....
Having created a potentially excellent site where the positive aspects of the cavalier breed could be celebrated and promoted,it seems the whole thing has descended into a disgraceful debacle and become a PR disaster.
I think any breeder has a right to defend themselves robustly,especially if they feel that they are being unfairly criticised,but how the situation is handled is important,it can either deal with the situation effectively or backfire spectacularly.
Surely in a week where APGAW have made some very strong recommendations,Bateson around the corner and the Kennel Club under enough pressure to cause an tsunami,every cavalier breeder should have more pressing issues than Bet Hargreaves on their mind.
Instead what you see is utter rubbish on a forum,the kind of bitchy nonesense that you find on your daughter's BEBO page....the kind of nonesense that you'd administer a swift clip round the ear to sort out.
It's not what you expect from mature responsible adults,that's for sure.
Certainly not what you'd expect from experienced professional breeders who carry our hopes to restore an ailing breed to full health.
Sheila Atter's column in Dogworld,"The perils of unguarded comments becoming public" is worth a read.
In a moment of frustration a barbed unguarded comment flies,common sense and decorum fly out the window and what you see is an undignified scramble to hurl personal insults.All this reflects badly on breeders as a unit.
It detracts from all the good work being done by a core of dedicated breeders,It overshadows all the positive aspects of the forum,it harms the reputation of breeders because in the first couple of pages of threads what you read is personal attacks on fellow breeders,Judges criticising judges,highlighting of "dubious breeding practices",abusers of hospitality,animal welfare issues with breeders,breeders ridiculing bereaved pet owners.
This folks is the image projected to the outside world and it's not good!
Bet Hargreaves doesn't want to see the end of cavaliers,anyone who can come to that conclusion is either soft in the head or a mischief maker...maybe both??
Bet's a bit like the aracde game where you get a mallet and a mole pops up from a hole and you bash it on the head,only to have it emerge through another hole to be bashed again,and you end up walloping left right and centre and all the time it'll keep popping up until you get driven to distraction and perhaps do yourself an injury.:p*(No offence Bet.)
Pleeease can we leave all this embarrassing beboesque nonesense and put it to rest and get back to talking about cavaliers?There's so much more interesting and attractive than people?
Sins

Shelli

6th November 2009, 12:15 PM

cl*p Very well said sins

Bet

6th November 2009, 12:28 PM

I have just sent a Formal Complant to the UK CKCS CLUB Committee , against another Club Member ,because of my State of Mind being called into question on a Public Forum on the Internet.

Mindysmom

6th November 2009, 01:03 PM

sins - very well said. I am always perplexed to see people using the internet to say things "I" at least would never say in a public place. Many more people read than post I would suspect and what someone posts does reflect on them for better or for worse.

Justine

6th November 2009, 01:15 PM

Yep agree with the above,its so easy to write something nasty and have no bad feelings about it,whenyour sitting and writing some folks forget there is a nother human being at the other end.

sins

6th November 2009, 01:22 PM

I agree, stripping a person of their dignity,reducing them to tears is not something to be admired,although clearly some people have a different point of view.Oddly enough,the main protagonists seem to happily battle away but it's often the peripheral parties who have nothing whatsoever to do with the issue who stick their oar in who do the real damage and then wander off washing their hands of any responsibility...
If any of their children were subjected to that treatment on Bebo,they wouldn't consider it so amusing....they'd be down the local police station making a formal complaint.
Sins

Justine

6th November 2009, 01:35 PM

Here,Here Sins...

harleyfarley

6th November 2009, 01:53 PM

For those who dont access c.c i have posted saying " what on earth is the point of this nasty name calling etc, what they should be concentrating on is sorting out the health issues and putting good breeding practices into force. Who did what to whom or said what when and why and how is all matter of fact and is not helping at all.
someone did reply but i couldnt really be bothered to read it.

diddy

6th November 2009, 02:27 PM

I

If any of their children were subjected to that treatment on Bebo,they wouldn't consider it so amusing....they'd be down the local police station making a formal complaint.
Sins

And they still dont seem to realise why their nickname is The Nasties!:lol:

Yorkysue

6th November 2009, 02:56 PM

And they still dont seem to realise why their nickname is The Nasties!:lol:

I'm not sticking up for either side here - but .......Why is it that you can call people names, and yet don't like it when they do the same??????????

Sorry but I think it's time to stop all this once and for all - it will get everyone nowhere at all!

meljoy

6th November 2009, 03:06 PM

I know of someone who was verbally bullying and name calling on their Facebook page.......a facebook moderator closed her page!!

I spoke to Mr Mynott a few years ago when I was first considering a cavalier he was very helpful and informative I really hope he realises that what could have been an incredibly useful tool about cavaliers is being used as a "Lets pick on certain people" site:(

Clairelou

6th November 2009, 03:15 PM

I just want to say how much I enjoy reading the posts of Bet and Margaret. Margarets posts are wise and well informed, Bet's always thought provoking, they share a common theme, they are always wrote with the welfare of Cavaliers at the core. The fact they have both become targets of such evil venom because of the questions they raise and opinions they express is abhorrent.

MARK MARSHALL

6th November 2009, 03:38 PM

I get the feeling that Mr Mynott is a pretty fair and sensible man who is not quite strong enough to face up to certain personalities.

He does after all visit many shows and seemingly, earns a living from photography etc.

Consequently, he prefers peace and quiet to confrontation.

The log concerning Bet has been closed !

No mention about his views on the content etc.

Mark.

WoodHaven

6th November 2009, 03:46 PM

I get the feeling that Mr Mynott is a pretty fair and sensible man who is not quite strong enough to face up to certain personalities.

He does after all visit many shows and seemingly, earns a living from photography etc.

Consequently, he prefers peace and quiet to confrontation.

The log concerning Bet has been closed !

No mention about his views on the content etc.

Mark.

I was going to comment on this, but I've decided to take the high road.

I am sure Mr. Mynott is plenty strong enough-- let's follow his lead and try to find something NICER to talk about??

Yorkysue

6th November 2009, 03:59 PM

I was going to comment on this, but I've decided to take the high road.

I am sure Mr. Mynott is plenty strong enough-- let's follow his lead and try to find something NICER to talk about??

Hear Hear!

It's disappointing when discussions descend inot name calling, and some people on this forum are equally at fault!
I want to read and talk about cavaliers, not get embroiled in mud slinging.

Mindysmom

6th November 2009, 06:26 PM

Well said yorkysue

pippa

6th November 2009, 06:58 PM

I agree, well said yorkysue.

Incidently I usually keep out of these sort of discussions but, I commented on the other boards thread to agree with something 'Pauline' from here said and to let them know how childish I thought they are being, but since my post it has gone one step further than childish and became downright Nasty!

I felt I needed to post and tell them so. Sadly I feel when this is all over they will move on to someone else as they seem to enjoy this :(

Bet

6th November 2009, 07:40 PM

Now that we Cavalier Pet Owners realize what some Cavalier Breeders are like,what can we do for our lovely Breed.

There has been the Spin put out by the Kennel Club about the APGAW Report,that the KC is depending so much on their Accredited Breeders Scheme.

Unfortunately there are many Cavalier Breeders not involved with it.

I really do think that it's up to us to get the Message across to Prospective Cavalier Buyers ,as Karlin mentioned earlier this week ,only to buy from Cavalier Breeders who carry out Health Tests, but some of those Cavalier Buyers are not prepared to wait or just go for the Cheapest Cavalier.

I have now read through the full APGAW Report ,and this seems to be a big concern that their Committee has, .

Is there any way there could be a contact having a List of Cavalier Breeders who do Health Tests for SM and MVD, that could be Advertised here.

According to the APGAW Report ,this is so important for the Pet Buying Public to be educated about.

Has any-body any ideas how it could be being done. ?

Maybe Margaret could have a List, but let's all have a think about this.

There must be someway of doing this.

This I think is a stumbling block ,The Kennel Club have a Puppy Register ,but are not prepared to have Cavalier Puppies advertised from Parents who have been Health Checked.

The UK CKCS CLUB also have a Puppy Register but only for Heart and Eye Current Tests, SM is optional,and I did read that there were not many Cavalier Breeders involved with the Puppy Register.

*Pauline*

6th November 2009, 07:56 PM

I agree, well said yorkysue.

Incidently I usually keep out of these sort of discussions but, I commented on the other boards thread to agree with something 'Pauline' from here said and to let them know how childish I thought they are being, but since my post it has gone one step further than childish and became downright Nasty!

I felt I needed to post and tell them so. Sadly I feel when this is all over they will move on to someone else as they seem to enjoy this :(

I've just seen Linda Flynn's post as she finally closes a thread accusing your post of not helping!!! I've heard it all now.

pippa

6th November 2009, 08:12 PM

I've just seen Linda Flynn's post as she finally closes a thread accusing your post of not helping!!! I've heard it all now.

I hadn't seen that post Pauline..Why did I get told off for my opinion and others get away with slagging someone off and name calling??????

I wasn't trying to fuel the discussion I was simply stating that I felt bad about things that were being said about someone who isn't even on the forum to defend themselves!

*Pauline*

6th November 2009, 08:26 PM

I hadn't seen that post Pauline..Why did I get told off for my opinion and others get away with slagging someone off and name calling??????

I wasn't trying to fuel the discussion I was simply stating that I felt bad about things that were being said about someone who isn't even on the forum to defend themselves!
:xctly: I PMed Linda my complaint as the thread has been closed but I don't expect a reply.

WoodHaven

6th November 2009, 08:36 PM

I hadn't seen that post Pauline..Why did I get told off for my opinion and others get away with slagging someone off and name calling??????

I wasn't trying to fuel the discussion I was simply stating that I felt bad about things that were being said about someone who isn't even on the forum to defend themselves!

How is telling people how NASTY they are not fueling a fire?? Especially after the board owner said stop.

How is stating over and over that CORE BREEDERS don't health test and "THEY" are breeding affected cavaliers not being mean (or not negatively affecting all core breeders)?? NOT stating WHO --colors all the breeders in a negative light.

*Pauline*

6th November 2009, 08:49 PM

How is telling people how NASTY they are not fueling a fire?? Especially after the board owner said stop.

The board owner took the decision to act far to late. A few of us felt we had no choice but to point out how horrible members were acting and defend Bet from being bullied.

Let them disagree, let them argue, but I will not stand by and ignore bullying.

WoodHaven

6th November 2009, 09:08 PM

The board owner took the decision to act far to late. A few of us felt we had no choice but to point out how horrible members were acting and defend Bet from being bullied.

Let them disagree, let them argue, but I will not stand by and ignore bullying.

YOU only saw one side get mean??? Really?
We tried to have a discussion about genetics-- a serious discussion and we got 'mocked' by 'someone'. You didn't see that??
The same someone who says over and over "half of cavalier have a murmur by 5" one cardio said that and that is all we get to hear. I'd love to see the worldwide study that follows that line of numbers.
We get zapped left and right that "breeders aren't testing" -- guess what-- I can't guarantee everyone does , but I can guarantee there are a lot of tests being done.

*Pauline*

6th November 2009, 09:20 PM

Disagree with Bet by all means if she's wrong, but the name calling and mockery is wrong.

RodRussell

6th November 2009, 11:24 PM

...The same someone who says over and over "half of cavalier have a murmur by 5" one cardio said that and that is all we get to hear. I'd love to see the worldwide study that follows that line of numbers.

That study has been published. A summary of the 1998 MVD symposium is at http://cavalierhealth.org/mvdprotocol.htm and a summarized transcript of the symposium is at http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/formsdocs.nsf/filelookup/98heartsymp.PDF/$file/98heartsymp.PDF

Now, you may argue, that was eleven years ago. Yes, it was, but according to cardiologists who have continued the research, things have not gotten better breed-wide. And there is no reason why we should expect the numbers to improve, since at that 1998 symposium, the panel of cardiologists and the geneticist said that if the MVD breeding protocol is not widely followed, the statistics are not expected to improve, because just breeding underaged CKCSs with murmur-clear hearts will not reduce the incidence of early-onset MVD.

Karen and Ruby

7th November 2009, 01:25 AM

Now that we Cavalier Pet Owners realize what some Cavalier Breeders are like,what can we do for our lovely Breed.

There has been the Spin put out by the Kennel Club about the APGAW Report,that the KC is depending so much on their Accredited Breeders Scheme.

Unfortunately there are many Cavalier Breeders not involved with it.

I really do think that it's up to us to get the Message across to Prospective Cavalier Buyers ,as Karlin mentioned earlier this week ,only to buy from Cavalier Breeders who carry out Health Tests, but some of those Cavalier Buyers are not prepared to wait or just go for the Cheapest Cavalier.

I have now read through the full APGAW Report ,and this seems to be a big concern that their Committee has, .

Is there any way there could be a contact having a List of Cavalier Breeders who do Health Tests for SM and MVD, that could be Advertised here.

According to the APGAW Report ,this is so important for the Pet Buying Public to be educated about.

Has any-body any ideas how it could be being done. ?

Maybe Margaret could have a List, but let's all have a think about this.

There must be someway of doing this.

This I think is a stumbling block ,The Kennel Club have a Puppy Register ,but are not prepared to have Cavalier Puppies advertised from Parents who have been Health Checked.

The UK CKCS CLUB also have a Puppy Register but only for Heart and Eye Current Tests, SM is optional,and I did read that there were not many Cavalier Breeders involved with the Puppy Register.

IMO we need to get out to the shows and get togethers around the Uk. Like a SM and MVD awareness campaign.
When I visit fun dog shows every year there are numerous stalls for numerous organisations. maybe we could be one of those stalls so that people who visit (1000's got to Paws in the Park this year in Kent) can learn more.
This way the general public could learn and even more so kids could too. ive already started teaching my neice about the plight of pedigree dogs and about health and welfare also. I think all kids would benefit fromlearning about animal welfare at school. Didnt I read somewhere that most dog bites happen to kids because they cant read a dogs lanuage appropriatly.

pippa

7th November 2009, 02:12 AM

How is telling people how NASTY they are not fueling a fire?? Especially after the board owner said stop.

The board owner saying STOP didn't stop others starting that new thread, all I did was respond to the remarks made on that thread. I was NOT trying to 'fuel the fire'.

No matter what disagreements people may have, no one should make fun of another person on an open forum. Maybe NASTY was too strong a word to use and if I offended anyone I am sorry that was not my intention. I was merely trying to make a point.

Bet

7th November 2009, 10:47 AM

Could I just say, that if I am wrong , I sure will apologize.

I feel so ashamed because of what I had said at the beginning of SM making it's appearance our Breed ,at that time I was helping Dr Rusbridge and Penny Knowler with their Cavalier Pedigree Research into the Problem.

I have 100's of 5 Generation Cavalier Pedigrees that I have written out by hand, infact some of the Cavalier Pedigree Lists that are on the Internet to-day ,the Owners of those Lists got from me.

This is away from what I started off saying, I had no right in saying what I did, the only excuse I have, is when I was helping Dr Rusbridge and Penny Knowler ,I could'nt make sense of reasons being given for the SM Problem.

I know I made life difficult for them ,and Margaret and Carol and Jemima Harrison,and I will always regret what I was saying,I should never had said what I was saying.

It was so thoughtless of me, I should have found out more about the SM problem before I started airing my stupid views and gave those Folk distress.

Can I also include the mention about Genetics in this Post, I was accused of scuppering the Discussion about it.

It is a very complex subject, and I believe that the only folk who have the knowledge to answer the questions that were being asked ,are the Researchers ,Dr Rusbridge and Penny Knowler who are working with the SM Researchers in Canada.

It is not known yet what the mode of inheritance for SM is, Dr Blott has even said that that SM could be 30% environmental, so I just can't see the use of speculating about it, when there are really no facts known .

So if I have offended some folk with my views about this I am sorry,but I feel until the Mode of Inheritance is known ,as we say in Scotland ,Bide a Wee..Then there could be such a fruitfull discussion about it.

Bet

7th November 2009, 10:54 AM

Karen ,

Forgot to say what a great idea this is of yours, I really do feel that we Cavalier Pet Owners can now be doing so much to help the Breed we love.

ByFloSin

7th November 2009, 12:13 PM

I have contacts in Bimingham who work for a welfare organisation and also hold companion shows in Birmingham each year where I could take an information table and get to talk with pet owners about health issues in Cavaliers, including SM and MVD. The same applies to a huge companion show in the city each Autumn too.

I would probably need to recruit a helper so that I could show one or more of my dogs during the day and also some informative literature would need to be written to give to those wanting the information. I see lots of work here, but it would be worth it to make constructive progress towards re-educating the general public.

Perhaps some of us could get together to facilitate this? I will also send a similar posting to the other UK groups I belong to?

You know what they say about actions speaking louder than words, perhaps it's time we sorted the men from the boys.

*Pauline*

7th November 2009, 03:35 PM

That's a very good idea Flo, thank you :D

Karlin

7th November 2009, 06:30 PM

People can use any of the information on the site in the health library, or on www.smcavalier.com, if they'd like for handouts.

Karen and Ruby

7th November 2009, 06:46 PM

I have contacts in Bimingham who work for a welfare organisation and also hold companion shows in Birmingham each year where I could take an information table and get to talk with pet owners about health issues in Cavaliers, including SM and MVD. The same applies to a huge companion show in the city each Autumn too.

I would probably need to recruit a helper so that I could show one or more of my dogs during the day and also some informative literature would need to be written to give to those wanting the information. I see lots of work here, but it would be worth it to make constructive progress towards re-educating the general public.

Perhaps some of us could get together to facilitate this? I will also send a similar posting to the other UK groups I belong to?

You know what they say about actions speaking louder than words, perhaps it's time we sorted the men from the boys.

Thats a wonderful idea!!!
I am certainly willing to help in any way I can. Maybe we could start some fundrasing on behalf of SM research.
I know that Margaret sells stuff on Ebay to help maybe if any of us have anything we could sell or donate.

Does any one know if there is a registered charity for Cavaliers/SM and MVD awareness. If not how would we go about starting one??

Karen and Ruby

7th November 2009, 06:49 PM

I have contacts in Bimingham who work for a welfare organisation and also hold companion shows in Birmingham each year where I could take an information table and get to talk with pet owners about health issues in Cavaliers, including SM and MVD. The same applies to a huge companion show in the city each Autumn too.

I would probably need to recruit a helper so that I could show one or more of my dogs during the day and also some informative literature would need to be written to give to those wanting the information. I see lots of work here, but it would be worth it to make constructive progress towards re-educating the general public.

Perhaps some of us could get together to facilitate this? I will also send a similar posting to the other UK groups I belong to?

You know what they say about actions speaking louder than words, perhaps it's time we sorted the men from the boys.

Thats a wonderful idea!! I am certainly willing to help in anyway possible.
Maybe we could start by raising some money so that we can get a place at these shows. I know that margaret sells stuff on ebay for fundraising- if anyone had anything they could donate??
Is there a registered charity for SM/MVD awareness or even Cavaliers? If not how would one go about starting one??