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I bought my first MT in 1991, an Eagle Talon (remember those guys?), while living in Warren, Mi. It came with me when I moved to downtown Milwaukee, suburban Columbus and suburban Baltimore. I liked it just fine in all those areas, especially BWI, where there are a lot of rolling hills to drive along.

I still had it when I moved to the city of Chicago in 1996. There are so many stop signs through those neighorhoods, and the traffic is so slow, driving an MT is like doing a conga dance: 1-2-3-stop. 1-2-3 stop. 1-2-3-stop. Frustrating as hell.

When I bought my new car in 1998 (too embarrassed to tell you what it was), it was no contest. I went with AT. And since I still live in the city, every car I have had since then has been AT. I liked MT, but given my surroundings, I don't miss it.

Anyone who lives or works in an intensely urban area like I do, don't underestimate the effect on your driving when deciding between MT and AT.

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Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

My 1st choice would probably be manual. Specially in Northern California.... no that much traffic. Here it is insane traffic, bumper-to-bumper stop-and-go and I would need to shift like 150x just to get home. Not fun. My previous E46 was manual - I couldn't keep 1st without going 500rpm.

I wrote "probably" because I am not so sure. I don't really miss that 3rd pedal but I love to shift (paddles are no substitute). We have another manual car in the family.

And since I use M-mode 80-90% of the time out of the highways, I have to say that I am pleased with the old style Steptronic (I prefer it to the new style but could get used to it I guess). I even lift the throttle between shifts just for the fun. Somebody listening could swear I am driving a manual. BMW Steptronic is an exception because most manumatics suck.

I do miss my manual just for the fun of practicing how to drive. However, with NorCal traffic, I don't miss it other than on passing. My step on the ZHP and overdrive on the MR2 are fast and responsive enough that you learn to think ahead when you need the power or engine braking. Auto or manual shouldn't matter if the driver can adapt to anything. Plus it only matters if you are on a track pushing 9-10/10th limits anyways.

I can't imagine a scenario where I'd own an AT car over one with a MT. I live near Detroit and our traffic is light compared to most big cities but there are definitely stop and go scenarios. Not once have I thought I wish my car had an AT.

I can't imagine a scenario where I'd own an AT car over one with a MT. I live near Detroit and our traffic is light compared to most big cities but there are definitely stop and go scenarios. Not once have I thought I wish my car had an AT.

One of the things I miss about living in Detroit is driving 80 on 696 in bumper-to-bumper traffic during rush hour. Haven't seen that in any other city I've lived in. But then again, I didn't see any deep dish square pizza joints like Buddy's or Loui's or Jet's in any other city until last month. So anything is possible, I guess.

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Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

I can't imagine a scenario where I'd own an AT car over one with a MT. I live near Detroit and our traffic is light compared to most big cities but there are definitely stop and go scenarios. Not once have I thought I wish my car had an AT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chasfh

One of the things I miss about living in Detroit is driving 80 on 696 in bumper-to-bumper traffic during rush hour. Haven't seen that in any other city I've lived in. But then again, I didn't see any deep dish square pizza joints like Buddy's or Loui's or Jet's in any other city until last month. So anything is possible, I guess.

I lived in Detroit for 4 years(plus a summer in Auburn Hills) while I got my bachelors.

I must have caught some kind of sickness because I love it there. We try and go back once a year and we always look into job prospects in order to relocate.

I usually have aftermarket clutches which are firmer, but no leg killing 6puck non sense.

I don't think I have ever sat in hours of traffic and wished for an automatic.

+1 LA traffic can be a beotch at times but even with the firm clutch of the E46 M3, never wished for a slushy.

The F30 clutch is extremely mild mannered compared to that, and even though I never have to use my parking brake starting on a steep hill the auto-hold feature on the F30 manual sweetens the experience for those times. Although my dyed-in-the-wool purist buddy claims if I drove his Z3 manual without auto-hold, I'd forget and roll back into somebody.

One of the things I miss about living in Detroit is driving 80 on 696 in bumper-to-bumper traffic during rush hour. Haven't seen that in any other city I've lived in. But then again, I didn't see any deep dish square pizza joints like Buddy's or Loui's or Jet's in any other city until last month. So anything is possible, I guess.

Ah yes, the I-696 commute. You get run over if you do 70 mph. I love it.

If it's your last chance, especially, buy the stick. You won't regret it.

Add me to the ranks of people who simply don't get how driving a stick in traffic is worse than driving an automatic. Hold the brake to the floor, or press the clutch in occasionally, your choice. I've spent plenty of time driving in terrible Seattle and Bay Area traffic, plus plenty of trips thru LA at rush hour. I'd rather creep along in first and sometimes give a bit more throttle, than hold a bunch of pressure on the brake to control the slushbox's creep.

If it's your last chance, especially, buy the stick. You won't regret it.

Add me to the ranks of people who simply don't get how driving a stick in traffic is worse than driving an automatic. Hold the brake to the floor, or press the clutch in occasionally, your choice. I've spent plenty of time driving in terrible Seattle and Bay Area traffic, plus plenty of trips thru LA at rush hour. I'd rather creep along in first and sometimes give a bit more throttle, than hold a bunch of pressure on the brake to control the slushbox's creep.

I love love love the 6-MT. yes the auto is a very nice box but the 6-MT is so direct and light its almost effortless to shift. One of the major reasons I came back to BMW after being "lost" with the 7-speed auto in the Mercedes.

I will drive MTs until they are not offered any more. And that will be a very sad day in my life.

Oh yea I live in Northern VA, perhaps the 2nd worse traffic area in the country.

My cars have had manual transmissions since 1991. My last two cars prior to the F30 were 5 and 6 speed german manual gearboxes and they were awesome. Having said that, I am in love with the 8AT transmission in the F30. I don't miss the clutch. Admittedly this car is primarily for commuting but I've still done some "fun" driving with it and in sport mode the auto is very responsive. I don't find I am missing out on the enjoyment of shifting, I simply concentrate on other things like taking the perfect line through a sweeper.

I would never have believed that I would like an automatic transmission as much as a manual transmission, but after having driven an S4 two years ago that had a DCT I was hooked. I actually drove that S4 back to back with the DCT and MT and the DCT was way more enjoyable. While the 8AT is not as good as the DCT it is so close that it's almost a toss-up. I was thrilled that BMW offers this transmission on the 3 series and with sport mode it's a blast.

The side benefits are huge (for me) too. The car is a joy to drive in commuter traffic because I'm not shifting it hundreds of times. I can relax a bit and listen to music and not get irritated about shifting in and out of 1st gear over and over again. The other benefit is that my wife can drive it. She can't drive a stick and I have no desire to try to teach her, let alone have her be "learning" stick on such an expensive car.

There was an earlier comment about the MT having lower long term maintenance costs. That is a fallacy. Automatics are designed to last as long as the engine and usually do. By comparison it's typical to need to replace the clutch and master cylinder on an MT car somewhere in the 80-120K mile range. A buddy is getting the MT replaced on a 2001 E39. Cost is going to be about $1200 and that's going through a private shop.

If you are "debating" though that you are going to regret getting an MT, then just get an MT, then we don't have to hear you whining about it later.

By comparison it's typical to need to replace the clutch and master cylinder on an MT car somewhere in the 80-120K mile range. A buddy is getting the MT replaced on a 2001 E39. Cost is going to be about $1200 and that's going through a private shop.

Good for you. I've never needed a clutch replaced either. It doesn't change the fact that you are more likely to need to replace the clutch on an MT vehicle you own long term than replace the automatic transmission. About all you need to do with ATs is replace the transmission fluid periodically.

I also switched to 8AT from being a lifetime MT driver, strangely I don't miss MT as much as I thought. The 8AT in sports mode is very responsive in both upshift and downshift. In comfort and eco modes the car rolls quite a bit(great for gas mileage) but I tend to use the brakes more than in MT. When in sport mode, the 8AT downshifts intelligently, and provides some engine braking(less braking needed).

To a dedicated manual transmission driver, the manual will never lose its merit. The new 8- speed automatic is an evolutionary improvement over previous automatic transmissions, but it is still an automatic.

It is easy to get lost in the terminology. It seems every manufacturer has its own name for an automatic transmission, versus an automated manual transmission. By convention, most automotive experts consider a transmission with a torque converter to be an automatic. OTOH a transmission that has an automated clutch and shifter, but no torque converter, is considered to be an automated manual. Both transmission types have two pedals on the floor.

A conventional manual transmission has three pedals, and some type of a manual shifter lever. Often the shift lever is located on the floor between the front seats. This is the type of transmission preferred by many enthusiasts (including me).

I almost exclusively prefer MTs too, but in the 328i Sports I've driven, the MT just seemed devoid of any feel for the car at all...just numb. Left me feeling more detached from the car than with the AT with paddles.

Anyone else have a similar experience?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cblandin

These days I am finding that the question isn't so much "Manual vs. Auto" as it is "THIS Manual vs. Auto". What I mean is, the quality of the clutch feel and (to a lesser extent) shift action of a given manual transmission really makes or breaks it for me. ... A manual tranny with a light switch on/off clutch is really no fun to drive (IMO) or one with so little feel you can't detect the sweet spot. Dual Mass flywheels and self-adjusting mechanisms have real benefits, but they seem to often (not always) coincide with a lack of feel. This may seem unimportant to some, but is at the heart of the experience for me.

It doesn't change the fact that you are more likely to need to replace the clutch on an MT vehicle you own long term than replace the automatic transmission.

This depends entirely on how you drive either transmission.

I put 250,000+ on my first car, a Toyota MT, before I sold it with the original clutch still working fine. I have never replaced a clutch on a track car. Driven well a clutch lasts essentially forever, even with city driving and driven aggressively. Others replace a street car clutch at less than 30k miles.

ATs vary in their lifetime as well. Properly maintained and not abused they should last the life of the engine. Many however need servicing/fixing prior to this - an expensive event.

The decision continues to reduce to buying the transmission one personally enjoys and your personality: If you are shifty, by an MT; shiftless, AT.

I almost exclusively prefer MTs too, but in the 328i Sports I've driven, the MT just seemed devoid of and feel for the car at all...just numb. Left me feeling more detached from the car than with the AT with paddles.

I have never liked BMW MTs much with the light feel, incredibly long throw and clutch delay valve. But they are easy to drive and readily modifiable.

What BMW should do is add a sync rev feature on the manual transmission. This system would allow for perfect upshifts and downshifts. You would always be in the perfect rpm range. Don't have to worry about blipping the throttle. Might take the fun out of the way but your still driving a manual. The Nissan 370z with the sport package has this feature and works great. Just a suggestion for BMW to implement.