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I understand that there is no legal requirements around the provision of Defribillaltors in the workplace as it currently stands and wanted to understand what the position and thoughts are across this forum. I work for a Utility and as such we have multiple offices and sites across a large geographical area and although we have installed a number of units this is in reality a very limited number and generally in the larger offices. We have a number of what the Company has termed as High Hazard sites but these don't all have a defibrillator on them.

What are your thoughts and experiences?

Does anyone know of any moves to change the legal stance on provision?

What if anything do others use to carry out an assessment of need for these units

How many work on your high hazard sites, what is the demographic of this work force i.e. what does your risk assessment say?

Mine says that despite an ageing workforce we have an adequate number of first aiders in a well populated shop floor, are close to an A&E hospital with an ambulance trust whose response rate is "reasonable" so no defibs.

One note of caution, losts of sites/estates seem to share information on who has them, one of our sites had signs up say the nearest defib was at XXXX around the corner in the next road. When I checked they had moved out several months back! Probably an unpleasant experience for all involved if it was needed and someone rushed around there expecting to find one....

We will be leasing one to keep at reception, we haven't carried out an assessment of need but I'd predict if we did we'd determine the risk was about as low as it could be, our workforce is predominantly young and healthy and the work done is relatively low risk. We are a fair step from the nearest hospital though.

Big fan and have introducd them is lots of places even where the footfall and assessment of risk from workforce and response time (that is the key rather than whether you have an A&E close by it doesn't guarantee an immediate response)...so % of A8 times met by your local Ambulance Service..in Wales buy and Defib! :)

You can join the Public Access Defib program which will reduce the cost and will allow you also to justify it as helping the local community.

We have one on site as we have an aging workforce and I also think it is MoJ policy to have one at every location. We have never used ours (and I hope we never will) but it is good to know that we have it and that all of our first aiders (and we have loads) are fully trained in its use. Its one of those things like an umbrella, if you haven't got one you know you'll need it!!

We've just put one in our largest office (130 staff, but rather younger than average workforce, and no particularly vulnerable groups, good A&E access). Any 'rational' assessment I came up with decided we didn't need one, but having bought it and announced it a number of staff have given positive feedback - they regard it as evidence that the company cares.

We are now probably going to purchase for most sites (down to some that are only around 20 staff) because of this 'warm fuzzy' effect, and because of sensitivities about head office being treated better than regional offices.

For those offices where we are tenants in a multi-occupancy block we've tried asking landlords to provide (and they've generally declined) so we're now pushing the other tenants to ask as well - if all the tenants ask for one to be provided, I expect the landlord will be more amenable.

How many work on your high hazard sites, what is the demographic of this work force i.e. what does your risk assessment say?

Mine says that despite an ageing workforce we have an adequate number of first aiders in a well populated shop floor, are close to an A&E hospital with an ambulance trust whose response rate is "reasonable" so no defibs.

[The number of staff and the age of the staff vary. As you say the risk is probable low but if it was to save just one person or to reduce the impact of any such attack then it would be worth it. The ambulance trust may well have a good response and is something i will look at but the issue may be getting through our security system in a timely manner (yes something else to think about)]

We've just put one in our largest office (130 staff, but rather younger than average workforce, and no particularly vulnerable groups, good A&amp;E access).

from my own point of view, saying you have not got a vulnerable group is stereotyping. i had a heart attack the end of last year ( i am 60). my point is there was o e guy on my ward who was in his mid twenties. so age is not a factor is heart attacks. defibs in the workplace INMO should be compulsary.
Mike

We've just put one in our largest office (130 staff, but rather younger than average workforce, and no particularly vulnerable groups, good A&E access).

from my own point of view, saying you have not got a vulnerable group is stereotyping. i had a heart attack the end of last year ( i am 60). my point is there was o e guy on my ward who was in his mid twenties. so age is not a factor is heart attacks. defibs in the workplace INMO should be compulsary.
Mike

I was going to say the same thing, age is no perfect indicator for having a heart attack. Plus it's good practice to hook people up when ever there is a possibility of them losing consciousness.

Also organisations like the Heart Foundation have a grant system to help in the purchase.

We've just put one in our largest office (130 staff, but rather younger than average workforce, and no particularly vulnerable groups, good A&E access).

from my own point of view, saying you have not got a vulnerable group is stereotyping. i had a heart attack the end of last year ( i am 60). my point is there was o e guy on my ward who was in his mid twenties. so age is not a factor is heart attacks. defibs in the workplace INMO should be compulsary.

Firstly I believe that what you say is not true - I think you are mistaking data and anecdote. Age is a risk factor in heart attacks.

Secondly, a defib / AED doesn't do anyone having a heart attack any good at all.

Thirdly, I nowhere said age was the sole decider of risk groups, nor did I say younger people are immune from sudden cardiac arrest (the event that an AED can assist with). I think you're trying to argue against a point of view I do not hold.

A lot of people do confuse a heart attack and a cardiac arrest. To the layman, any issue with the heart is a heart attack. It's only education by going on a course that will alleviate this issue. Here is a link to a site explaining the difference. Even they say people often interchange the descriptor

We've just put one in our largest office (130 staff, but rather younger than average workforce, and no particularly vulnerable groups, good A&E access).

from my own point of view, saying you have not got a vulnerable group is stereotyping. i had a heart attack the end of last year ( i am 60). my point is there was o e guy on my ward who was in his mid twenties. so age is not a factor is heart attacks. defibs in the workplace INMO should be compulsary.

Firstly I believe that what you say is not true - I think you are mistaking data and anecdote. Age is a risk factor in heart attacks.

Secondly, a defib / AED doesn't do anyone having a heart attack any good at all.

Thirdly, I nowhere said age was the sole decider of risk groups, nor did I say younger people are immune from sudden cardiac arrest (the event that an AED can assist with). I think you're trying to argue against a point of view I do not hold.

Ploy with words here, SCA benefits from an AED but most people incorrectly refernce this as a heart attack however you knew fine well what he is thinking.
For the cost of around £1000, an AED is a worthwhile investment that just may well save one persons life in its lifetime and that is worth it...

We've just put one in our largest office (130 staff, but rather younger than average workforce, and no particularly vulnerable groups, good A&E access).

from my own point of view, saying you have not got a vulnerable group is stereotyping. i had a heart attack the end of last year ( i am 60). my point is there was o e guy on my ward who was in his mid twenties. so age is not a factor is heart attacks. defibs in the workplace INMO should be compulsary.

Firstly I believe that what you say is not true - I think you are mistaking data and anecdote. Age is a risk factor in heart attacks.

Secondly, a defib / AED doesn't do anyone having a heart attack any good at all.

Thirdly, I nowhere said age was the sole decider of risk groups, nor did I say younger people are immune from sudden cardiac arrest (the event that an AED can assist with). I think you're trying to argue against a point of view I do not hold.

Ploy with words here, SCA benefits from an AED but most people incorrectly refernce this as a heart attack however you knew fine well what he is thinking.
For the cost of around £1000, an AED is a worthwhile investment that just may well save one persons life in its lifetime and that is worth it...

Well, he/she apparently thinks that because they heard of one person in their 20s that had something wrong with their heart, that means age is not a risk factor in heart attacks and/or sudden cardiac arrest (despite your assertions, I don't know whether or not they appreciate there is a difference). That's simply not true (in my opinion).

There are other things that money could be spent on that would likely have a greater benefit. I agree, if we had unlimited money to spend then we should put AEDs in every office. We don't.

What I find most peculiar though is all this criticism directed at me when what I said is that we are buying AEDs for all our offices, even those that have very small numbers of staff. We did a risk assessment, we concluded that none were needed, BUT WE'VE BOUGHT THEM ANYWAY. I posted evidence of a benefit (in terms of staff perception) even when there isn't a quantified justification.

I'm advocating what you want, and providing an additional evidential point that may support or encourage others to do what you want, but still you're criticising.

There are other things that money could be spent on that would likely have a greater benefit. I agree, if we had unlimited money to spend then we should put AEDs in every office. We don't.

What I find most peculiar though is all this criticism directed at me when what I said is that we are buying AEDs for all our offices, even those that have very small numbers of staff. We did a risk assessment, we concluded that none were needed, BUT WE'VE BOUGHT THEM ANYWAY. I posted evidence of a benefit (in terms of staff perception) even when there isn't a quantified justification.

I'm with you there, we've used pretty much the same chain of thought to reach our decision.

I am late coming to this particular discussion but I would also advocate having AEDs in the workplace.

Just in addition to all the previous posters advice, both the battery units and pads have expiry dates so factor this in when purchasing. Important also to implement a monthly check of the units, both visual and operational, maybe get your First Aiders / trained users to do this to drive ownership.

Anecdote can be useful when describing low frequency but high-impact events. I'm going to offer one now.

At a previous place we put an AED in the reception of one of our hospices. Why would you put an AED in a hospice? People in hospices are usually 'DNAR' (do not attempt resuscitation) after all? Well, there's a bloke in West Yorkshire still walking around having arrested while visiting a relative. Anecdote? Yes. Life saved? Yes.

So I agree, do the maths, decide its not worth the outlay, then BUY ONE ANYWAY. What price a life?

John

Edited by user23 July 2019 08:30:24(UTC)
| Reason: I should probably use voice input tbh

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