Look guys - there is no-one more disparaging of the early Hamilton than myself; he was hailed as the demi-god, and to anyone who has half a brain, he has delivered on his promise as a young rookie driver. He has not had the benefit of a dominant car, but whenever he has been give a half chance car, he has tried to take it (even with the crashes and failings?). I was very reserved over the Hamilton hype - and I still am - but there is no doubt that he is a top driver.My point was that in order to talk LH out of Macca (even though LH was probably disillusioned with Macca themselves!) they (Merc) must have had some ace up their sleeve. I don't mean a wonder go faster solution (a la Brawn 2009) - I mean a commitment to putting resources and effort into the design and backroom boys to produce a championship contender. If they made no such promise - the LH is deffo an idiot (unless of course he has a lovely team performance clause!) - which I don't think he is?just sayin.........

IMo Hamilton has a performance clause, most top drivers will have one.And what many people say, Hamilton wanted out of McLarenThere has been the a source who said Hamilton rather left F1 than to stay another year at McLaren

Yet you are talking about Lewis going back in year or 2, so going by that McLaren is a no go team for Lewis surely?

_________________Lewis is to Twitter what Grosjean is to first corners.

Hamilton is a top driver,and as long as he is a top driver with backing,there would always be vacancy in a top team,he may have to bide him time a bit but they'll move mountains to make way,that's just the way it the real world works,it's all politics,it who you know and what you have to offer.

Like McLaren "moved mountains" to keep him? Like RBR and Ferrari booted their drivers to have him? Oh that's right, none of that happened.

Do you think he would have chosen Merc if other teams would do anything to have him? F1 isn't a one man sport right now, nobody is worth upsetting the whole apple cart for.

and you know exactly how much Mclaren were willing to go to retain him? anyway my point still stands,a top driver would always have a top seat even if he has to sit and wait for a year or 2 like Alonso did.....it's like saying Dwayne Wade would struggle to find a competitive team in NBA if something happens to the Heats.

Exactly. At this time of the season data collection for the teams is vitally important. It's possible some teams have not fitted certain go-fast parts, but as far as the driver is concerned, he is expected to get out on track and drive as he is expected to do, consistently and quickly. If any driver gets cute, he could ruin days of hard effort by the team and put them on the back foot when Melbourne arrives.

Time to calm down here a bit. As someone said, the season hasn't even started yet and we're just looking at testing, where everyone has different fuel loads, tyres and aero packages to compare.

Here's what I THINK is happening:

Logical Lewis is just trying to get himself in the right mindset so that he isn't all sad faced when the car is mid-pack this yearEmotional Lewis is already preapring the ground for his "I drove my nuts off, but the car didn't have it" speech(es)No team has a final race configuration out in any of the testing so far, so indications based on what we've seen aren't worth didly squat.

Here's what I HOPE is happening:

Mercedes have their new single-diaphragm-double-dipole spring-loaded-flange-retracter device/doodad in the wings and it will give them +2 secondsAlonso gets a decent Ferrari from Day 1 so that Hamilton has an "honest" challenger (if that's a description you could ever apply to Fred)Newey has run out of ideas, plus Webber will get a fair crack of the whip this year.

Exactly. At this time of the season data collection for the teams is vitally important. It's possible some teams have not fitted certain go-fast parts, but as far as the driver is concerned, he is expected to get out on track and drive as he is expected to do, consistently and quickly. If any driver gets cute, he could ruin days of hard effort by the team and put them on the back foot when Melbourne arrives.

We have teams to deliberately fail equipment just to test their limits, like Ferrari did with their exhaust the other day, how can anybody get conclusions from these tests? To us it would look like Ferrari is a piece of dog poo, for Ferrari it was information.

Only a few people can decifer what is happening on track on testing days and they are called engineers; they work for the teams.

No he is being honest about their pace, he never expected them to be winning races or getting podiums in 2013, nobody expected that or said that would happen so i dont understand all this hysteria. They aren't challenging, nobody at Merc thought they would be, nobody thinks they will, it has always been about 2014 and still is.

I don't know, acknowledging that the 2013 season will be a long "test session" is pretty sad for a marque like MB.Still can't see a competitor like LH being happy with such an arrangement. It's either an early retirement plan or an end of a promising career.

Not really in 2008 Red Bull were bad and in 2009 they had the best/2nd best car, Ferrari also made their way to the front after being disappointing, his plan is to join in 2013 and intergrate with the team for the 2014 rule changes, obviously Merc had something in their portfolio that looked promising, its always been a move looking to the future

Not really in 2008 Red Bull were bad and in 2009 they had the best/2nd best car, Ferrari also made their way to the front after being disappointing, his plan is to join in 2013 and intergrate with the team for the 2014 rule changes, obviously Merc had something in their portfolio that looked promising, its always been a move looking to the future

Between 2008/2009 we had big aero changes no big Aero changes coming up now Aero will still be king. The Ferrari Era was a completely different scenario with testing and Money etc. That a avenue is closed for teams now.

I know they weren't willing to do or offer enough to keep him, or he'd still be there.

There are a few more positions available in the NBA than in F1

can also work the other way round, maybe McLaren had nothing to offer wich would have convinced Hamilton to stay

totally agree. Macca could only offer 'more of the same' - and after all the disappointments of the recent years, it's not hard to believe Hamilton was looking elsewhere with a preference. Macca don't seem to have the edge in all round performance and team stakes, and being there or thereabouts would get frustrating! Fair enough, if LH felt he was the final piece that was failing, he might have carried on - but he clearly wasn't that piece - it was the team as a whole. He took the risk to go to Merc, and we will see the final outcome in due course. Macca have had his services and have not been able to take advantage of them - I don't think anyone could look at his time with Macca and say it is the other way round!

will you be taking a bet on LH for the WDC then? about 15/1 currently, I think! I am quite interested to see how the betting looks after Melbourne! Certainly, if the odds on LH lengthen a bit, but he is still within a second of the front runner pace, I think I'll be having a punt!

I know they weren't willing to do or offer enough to keep him, or he'd still be there.

There are a few more positions available in the NBA than in F1

can also work the other way round, maybe McLaren had nothing to offer wich would have convinced Hamilton to stay

totally agree. Macca could only offer 'more of the same' - and after all the disappointments of the recent years, it's not hard to believe Hamilton was looking elsewhere with a preference. Macca don't seem to have the edge in all round performance and team stakes, and being there or thereabouts would get frustrating! Fair enough, if LH felt he was the final piece that was failing, he might have carried on - but he clearly wasn't that piece - it was the team as a whole. He took the risk to go to Merc, and we will see the final outcome in due course. Macca have had his services and have not been able to take advantage of them - I don't think anyone could look at his time with Macca and say it is the other way round!

I know they weren't willing to do or offer enough to keep him, or he'd still be there.

There are a few more positions available in the NBA than in F1

can also work the other way round, maybe McLaren had nothing to offer wich would have convinced Hamilton to stay

totally agree. Macca could only offer 'more of the same' - and after all the disappointments of the recent years, it's not hard to believe Hamilton was looking elsewhere with a preference. Macca don't seem to have the edge in all round performance and team stakes, and being there or thereabouts would get frustrating! Fair enough, if LH felt he was the final piece that was failing, he might have carried on - but he clearly wasn't that piece - it was the team as a whole. He took the risk to go to Merc, and we will see the final outcome in due course. Macca have had his services and have not been able to take advantage of them - I don't think anyone could look at his time with Macca and say it is the other way round!

You put it well together

Agreed 👏

Lewis was clearly frustrated with Mclaren from 2011 and it was simply his conscience and loyalty to them that made it such an agonising decision for him . The offer they first made him was simply the nail in the coffin not the catalyst .

It's easy for people with no vested interest in an F1 team to pretend that Lewis would not be a major asset to any of the teams .

Believe me if any of you started a team tomorrow and Lewis offered his services you'd bite his hand off I would go as far as to say even over your preferred drivers .

That beautiful Mclaren car looks rather sad and no matter how well Jenson and Perez may drive it I will always wonder now , what if ... Whereas the not so pretty Mercedes is looking far more interesting ( well to me anyway ) 😀

@QIWATER: Nobody is saying that Lewis wont be an asset. Ofcourse he will in any team. At the end of the day it was his decision which he took for whatever reasons. Keeping aside the debate of whose fault it was. What Ashley and Laura (i think) are saying (this was even said by Ron Dennis) that, no driver, however good he may be, is bigger than the team. There is only so much Mclaren can and would do to keep a good driver. If he leaves they arent going to fret over it. In conclusion, the only people who will miss Hamilton in a fast car is gonna be his diehard fans and maybe Hamilton himself. But definitely not Mclaren

I know they weren't willing to do or offer enough to keep him, or he'd still be there.

There are a few more positions available in the NBA than in F1

nop they were just willing to offer him enough to be highest paid driver in F1....am sure to you that doesn't mean that they wanted to retain him but in the real world,i wouldn't offer someone enough money to be highest paid amongst his colleague if i didn't want to keep them hence me enticing him with a sweet deal a.k.a alot of money....and my point about NBA is that there are some guys that you know that they won't play for anyone but a top team in NBA,you won't see Dwayne going to the Toronto Raptors for instance cuz of lack of availability with the top teams.

@QIWATER: Nobody is saying that Lewis wont be an asset. Ofcourse he will in any team. At the end of the day it was his decision which he took for whatever reasons. Keeping aside the debate of whose fault it was. What Ashley and Laura (i think) are saying (this was even said by Ron Dennis) that, no driver, however good he may be, is bigger than the team. There is only so much Mclaren can and would do to keep a good driver. If he leaves they arent going to fret over it. In conclusion, the only people who will miss Hamilton in a fast car is gonna be his diehard fans and maybe Hamilton himself. But definitely not Mclaren

McLaren weakened themselves, by losing Hamilton. It will be seen if they can compensate loosing one of the best drivers , with a superior car, wich they need now to fight for the WDC

@Haribo: How can you say they weakened themselves when the season hasnt even started? If the car is reliable this year and has the speed of last year then, Jenson is more than enough to lead the team to victory. Perez too was good in the Sauber last year. What makes you think he wont be good in the Mclaren?

@QIWATER: Nobody is saying that Lewis wont be an asset. Ofcourse he will in any team. At the end of the day it was his decision which he took for whatever reasons. Keeping aside the debate of whose fault it was. What Ashley and Laura (i think) are saying (this was even said by Ron Dennis) that, no driver, however good he may be, is bigger than the team. There is only so much Mclaren can and would do to keep a good driver. If he leaves they arent going to fret over it. In conclusion, the only people who will miss Hamilton in a fast car is gonna be his diehard fans and maybe Hamilton himself. But definitely not Mclaren

McLaren weakened themselves, by losing Hamilton. It will be seen if they can compensate loosing one of the best drivers , with a superior car, wich they need now to fight for the WDC

agree - I also think Macca will find it harder to get poles without a clear car advantage - but there are still some that don't believe that one driver can make a couple of tenths difference with a car - which I happen to think that LH, FA and SV can and do regularly do. FA demonstrated last year that even with an inferior car - his skills made a massive impact. SV nearly always manages far greater speed than Webbo and ditto for LH. I just don't see Macca challenging for poles unless Perez turns out to be another great one lapper? And of course, we all know how good Maccas strategy has been of recent years! Ergo, a JB or SP WDC is looking a little less likely? It's funny how everyone talks about LH making a big mistake - but in practise, it could well turn out that Macca are the biggest losers because without that tiny drivers 'edge' (JB is too inconsistent for my money) I can see them struggling to get top points......

@FringeUk: Like I mentioned earlier the season hasnt started. Maybe your right JB may make a hash of things, or maybe others too are right that LH has made a mistake. Maybe Merc may even decide to packup at the end of the year. Who knows? I sure dont know whats gonna happen. Do you?

@FringeUk: Like I mentioned earlier the season hasnt started. Maybe your right JB may make a hash of things, or maybe others too are right that LH has made a mistake. Maybe Merc may even decide to packup at the end of the year. Who knows? I sure dont know whats gonna happen. Do you?

Nope, of course not! - but speculating does at least while away some of the waiting time to the season proper! FWIW, I don't think JB will make a hash of things - I just don't think he can 'lead' the team (pace wise) like LH did - it's just my opinion.

I know they weren't willing to do or offer enough to keep him, or he'd still be there.

There are a few more positions available in the NBA than in F1

nop they were just willing to offer him enough to be highest paid driver in F1....am sure to you that doesn't mean that they wanted to retain him but in the real world,i wouldn't offer someone enough money to be highest paid amongst his colleague if i didn't want to keep them hence me enticing him with a sweet deal a.k.a alot of money....

Alonso was the highest paid F1 driver in 2012 and by quite a margin!

McLaren wanted Lewis to take a pay cut. So how come McLaren was willing to make him the highest paid F1 driver?

@Haribo: How can you say they weakened themselves when the season hasnt even started? If the car is reliable this year and has the speed of last year then, Jenson is more than enough to lead the team to victory. Perez too was good in the Sauber last year. What makes you think he wont be good in the Mclaren?

Mclaren is weaker without Lewis there is no doubt that Jenson is a good and competent driver but his performance is reliable but not consistent and he cannot or does not battle his way through a problem , which is why he stays out of trouble and does not challenge .

Lewis and Jenson actually would have worked well because they are so very different , if the situation needed patience and timing Jenson rose to the occasion but If it required that die hard in it to the bitter end determination and speed ie Austin on Vettel Lewis was your man. Who knows what Perez will do we have seen he can be fast but his skill does not match his speed .. Yet.. We have seen his tyres last but was that the car or him he is an unknown quantity.

Mclaren is weaker and if they couldn't win at least WCC last year with Lewis and Jenson then it doesn't bode well for this season not with Alonso more hungry than ever Massa feeling sprightly again Webber drinking in last chance saloon and Kimi.

You have Perez saying the car is geared toward Jenson's style and input and he just has to adapt to it and Jenson saying he had a lot of input into the development of the car but doesn't understand it .

The fact that Jenson, his fans, the press and( retired drivers of strong and personally deemed valid opinion) 😙 Keep stating as you have that Jenson can and will and is strong enough to lead the team that nurtured Lewis from boyhood is simply putting a massive amount of pressure on his shoulders to perform and after the traumatic time he had mid season last year with his setup issues He may become seriously over stressed this year. You may find that rather than Lewis being without a drive that Jenson may retire if this year goes badly for him .

Perez as a young driver should be under no stress just guidance and fine tuning but again the same culprits as above have laid claims of him winning WDC beating Jenson , Lewis Vettel, Alonso Webber,and Kimi. just because he had a couple of promising races last season and because of Lewis's 2007 rookie success you only need to be on a fast car to win WDC .

Yes it may well be that no driver is bigger than a team and there is no doubt that Mclaren will survive in fact survival is not in question for a team of Mclaren's calibre but heads will roll

I know they weren't willing to do or offer enough to keep him, or he'd still be there.

There are a few more positions available in the NBA than in F1

nop they were just willing to offer him enough to be highest paid driver in F1....am sure to you that doesn't mean that they wanted to retain him but in the real world,i wouldn't offer someone enough money to be highest paid amongst his colleague if i didn't want to keep them hence me enticing him with a sweet deal a.k.a alot of money....

Alonso was the highest paid F1 driver in 2012 and by quite a margin!

McLaren wanted Lewis to take a pay cut. So how come McLaren was willing to make him the highest paid F1 driver?

direct your question to Martin,his words not mine...the idea of pay cut was all media made up,Ron or nobody actually said,yes Lewis would take a pay cut however after the deal was announced Martin mentioned repeatedly that they offered Lewis enough money to make him the highest paid driver on the grid.....now if that's true or not is what we don't know but it's his words and we can only go by it.

Not really in 2008 Red Bull were bad and in 2009 they had the best/2nd best car, Ferrari also made their way to the front after being disappointing, his plan is to join in 2013 and intergrate with the team for the 2014 rule changes, obviously Merc had something in their portfolio that looked promising, its always been a move looking to the future

Between 2008/2009 we had big aero changes no big Aero changes coming up now Aero will still be king. The Ferrari Era was a completely different scenario with testing and Money etc. That a avenue is closed for teams now.

Massive engine changes coming up for 2014 though, the likes of which we haven't seen before with the ERS and such, Merc feel they can take advantage of this, as i said obviously they have something planned which they hope will propel them forwards and they showed this to Hamilton, yes aero will still be important but so will having a reliable and powerful ERS system. If you can find me an quote since Hamilton signed for Merc where they have said they expect to be challenging for the title in 2013 then i will suck your toes

Why is it every Hamilton thread ends up like this, just answer the ruddy question, I dont care how good Lewis is or isnt, where he is or isnt , where he is going or isnt, the thread is , " Is Lewis Sandbagging ? "

Yes of course he is, its testing, if it was great he would be like " No its a good step forward but I dont see us winning till mid season "........If it was crap he would be like " No its a good step forward but I dont see us winning till mid season ", you can bet your pickle that Button when he was at Brawn didnt come out and say " Look guys we have a super duper top secret thingamabob that will wrap the season up for us "

Why is it every Hamilton thread ends up like this, just answer the ruddy question, I dont care how good Lewis is or isnt, where he is or isnt , where he is going or isnt, the thread is , " Is Lewis Sandbagging ? "

Yes of course he is, its testing, if it was great he would be like " No its a good step forward but I dont see us winning till mid season "........If it was crap he would be like " No its a good step forward but I dont see us winning till mid season ", you can bet your pickle that Button when he was at Brawn didnt come out and say " Look guys we have a super duper top secret thingamabob that will wrap the season up for us "

Testing , testing...123

Partly agree - the thread did diverge a bit, but that's because of the nature of the beast!LH isn't sandbagging in the sense that (I think) the OP meant - and you refer to JB at Brawn - IIRC during that seaons testing JB/Brawn tried to play down their pace? but also IIRC, I remember him saying in an interview that he knew the car was unbeatable (I think he actually said 'special'?) as soon as he drove it - but to my recollection he never said anything to that effect when the Brawn was on pace in testing? [To be fair, I don't think Brawn is a fair comparison to normal testing, where regs are very similar. They stole a march on everyone and were waiting for FIA confirmation of their legality!]

Not really in 2008 Red Bull were bad and in 2009 they had the best/2nd best car, Ferrari also made their way to the front after being disappointing, his plan is to join in 2013 and intergrate with the team for the 2014 rule changes, obviously Merc had something in their portfolio that looked promising, its always been a move looking to the future

Between 2008/2009 we had big aero changes no big Aero changes coming up now Aero will still be king. The Ferrari Era was a completely different scenario with testing and Money etc. That a avenue is closed for teams now.

Massive engine changes coming up for 2014 though, the likes of which we haven't seen before with the ERS and such, Merc feel they can take advantage of this, as i said obviously they have something planned which they hope will propel them forwards and they showed this to Hamilton, yes aero will still be important but so will having a reliable and powerful ERS system. If you can find me an quote since Hamilton signed for Merc where they have said they expect to be challenging for the title in 2013 then i will suck your toes

James Allison described the 2009 rule changes as a "ripple" compared to the "tsunami" of the 2014 rule changes...

We must understand that Hamilton's opinions is based on the McLaren he drove which was the fastest car last year.

Thus, It's believable his comments about the Merc being not so good, or as good as his car last year. In comparison to Rosberg, his comments have been much positive towards the car but then again this is due to him comparing to the Merc which he drove last year.

We must understand that Hamilton's opinions is based on the McLaren he drove which was the fastest car last year.

Thus, It's believable his comments about the Merc being not so good, or as good as his car last year. In comparison to Rosberg, his comments have been much positive towards the car but then again this is due to him comparing to the Merc which he drove last year.

@Haribo: How can you say they weakened themselves when the season hasnt even started? If the car is reliable this year and has the speed of last year then, Jenson is more than enough to lead the team to victory. Perez too was good in the Sauber last year. What makes you think he wont be good in the Mclaren?

Both Button & Perez can win the title in a good enough/ perfect car. But look at last season, Button was lost at sea , when the car was tricky to driveWho says it won't happen again?

@Haribo: How can you say they weakened themselves when the season hasnt even started? If the car is reliable this year and has the speed of last year then, Jenson is more than enough to lead the team to victory. Perez too was good in the Sauber last year. What makes you think he wont be good in the Mclaren?

Both Button & Perez can win the title in a good enough/ perfect car. But look at last season, Button was lost at sea , when the car was tricky to driveWho says it won't happen again?

But how often does a driver win the WDC in a car that is not "good enough"?

IMO its rare for the WDC to be won by a driver who is not in a car capable of winning the WDC. The title is nearly always won by the driver in the best/one of the best cars that season.

Last year Button did not perform well, but the car/team wasn't good enough for Hamilton to win the WDC either.

@Haribo: How can you say they weakened themselves when the season hasnt even started? If the car is reliable this year and has the speed of last year then, Jenson is more than enough to lead the team to victory. Perez too was good in the Sauber last year. What makes you think he wont be good in the Mclaren?

Both Button & Perez can win the title in a good enough/ perfect car. But look at last season, Button was lost at sea , when the car was tricky to driveWho says it won't happen again?

Button found it hard drive because of the setup issues he was having, nothing to do with the car being a handful, also it's worth pointing out that Jenson never had long lasting setup problems like that before so the likelihood of that happening again are very slim, also McLaren would've put procedures in place to stop this sort of thing happening again.

_________________Lewis is to Twitter what Grosjean is to first corners.

@Haribo: How can you say they weakened themselves when the season hasnt even started? If the car is reliable this year and has the speed of last year then, Jenson is more than enough to lead the team to victory. Perez too was good in the Sauber last year. What makes you think he wont be good in the Mclaren?

Both Button & Perez can win the title in a good enough/ perfect car. But look at last season, Button was lost at sea , when the car was tricky to driveWho says it won't happen again?

Button found it hard drive because of the setup issues he was having, nothing to do with the car being a handful, also it's worth pointing out that Jenson never had long lasting setup problems like that before so the likelihood of that happening again are very slim, also McLaren would've put procedures in place to stop this sort of thing happening again.