I'll wait patiently for you to present a scrap of evidence from my posts advocating for bombing Iran. But please, don't be offended if I go about other business while I'm waiting. I understand that "being offended" is important to you.

No, I still think you're a prime example of the Ugly American who wants to shove Americanism down everyone's throats.

You aren't even capable of seeing this incident from any other perspective.

Still, a valid point has been raised: Shouldn't Ahmadinejad, as a well seasoned world traveler, understand that in non-Muslim countries, revealing the bottom of your shoe means absolutely nothing, and NOT responded with an in-kind "insult"? Shouldn't he know that the returned insult also means absolutely nothing?

It seems to me that there are a couple of possible reasons:1. He wasn't really insulted, but did what he did for "the folks back home" who WOULD take it as an insult (after all he would not be the first leader to think the common people are not that sophisticated)2. He has what amounts to a "persecution complex" and is incapable of NOT taking it as an insult (which is what most people here are deriding him about, I think)

Understanding of cultures works BOTH ways - sorry, but you can't argue with that. He should have simply said "Mr. Ambassador, you may not know it, but showing the bottom of your shoe to someone from my country is considered an insult, could you please place you feet on the ground"

BigNumber12:The action goes against the custom of some Muslim countries, which considers shoes unclean because they are 'closer to the ground, closer to the devil and farther away from God'.

Grow the fark up, you children.

Apparently, these all just, all knowing, all seeing powerful but incredibly petty deities really love it when their followers get outraged about the same things as they supposedly hate, too. Especially if you riot about it.Guaranteed brownie points for the afterlife!

whidbey:StashMonster: I have heard of this insult before. There are places where waving at someone is an insult, and so on. You need to check these things when travelling to foreign countries, if you don't want to accidentally piss off random people and look like a dick. Also, to know when people are signalling their local equivalent of the finger.

No come on. Why can't other countries be like OURS, man?Sheeittt....

Well looking at how this thread descended into a trollfest I have a pretty dismal view of people's understanding of that.

DNRTFA but if all that really happened is Ahmadinejad crossed his legs (pointing his foot away) then the article seems like a non-story that maybe was just designed to stir up or feed on anti-Iranian sentiment? Would be interesting to compare and contrast Iranian news coverage of it (if any). The few times I did that about an Iranian news story the results were very worrying - this wouldn't be the first time something he did or said was misrepresented. I don't generally bother following political news, but once in a while things like that are drawn to my attention and it gives me the creeps.

1) This guy is their chief diplomat. Why is it unreasonable to expect him to realize that the particular superstition that has upset him is held by a minority of the world's population, and the person he's speaking to is probably unaware of breaching it? Should we be thrilled that their chief diplomat is playing "insult swap" with someone who's completely unaware that they're even playing?

2) Give me an example of our Head of State doing the equivalent of this.

That's it. If you're so obviously justified, responding without namecalling should be simple for you.

Sorry, just don't care for your attitude. So you don't care for this particular insult.

Stop being a jackass about it. You sound like some Republican threatening to bomb Iran into being a democratic nation we can control.

whidbey:BigNumber12: ...aaaaaand "the type" is so afraid of someone out there in the world calling them a bigot that they go to great lengths and practice spectacular mental gymnastics to avoid being seen as even remotely critical of someone else's culture.

You two should go have coffee together and discuss the upcoming nationbuilding.

BigNumber12:A furious Mr Ahmadinejad returned the gesture and also crossed his legs 'in response to the impoliteness of his interlocutor', as the Iranian news agency Asiran put it.

Dear Sweden,

This is the sort of "tolerance" that you're falling all over yourself to tolerate. Enjoy.

Love,

Realistic People

Erm, no. The ambassador accidentally flipped him off, which is actually an insult because it's like saying 'yeah, I didn't read my briefing on you guys and thus don't know something that children in your country know, even though that's my job'. So the guy flipped him off back. Which I find totally appropriate.

If this were an average citizen, I'd get the laughter, but this guy's job is to know this shiat. That makes this offensive. Imagine if your IT guy didn't know what a keyboard was, or your plumber didn't have a wrench.

No, I still think you're a prime example of the Ugly American who wants to shove Americanism down everyone's throats.

You aren't even capable of seeing this incident from any other perspective.

Still, a valid point has been raised: Shouldn't Ahmadinejad, as a well seasoned world traveler, understand that in non-Muslim countries, revealing the bottom of your shoe means absolutely nothing, and NOT responded with an in-kind "insult"? Shouldn't he know that the returned insult also means absolutely nothing?

It seems to me that there are a couple of possible reasons:1. He wasn't really insulted, but did what he did for "the folks back home" who WOULD take it as an insult (after all he would not be the first leader to think the common people are not that sophisticated)2. He has what amounts to a "persecution complex" and is incapable of NOT taking it as an insult (which is what most people here are deriding him about, I think)

Understanding of cultures works BOTH ways - sorry, but you can't argue with that. He should have simply said "Mr. Ambassador, you may not know it, but showing the bottom of your shoe to someone from my country is considered an insult, could you please place you feet on the ground"

As I understand it, it is only an insult if you point your sole at them.

meanmutton:Okay, I'm thinking -- what could possibly be similar in our culture? Accidentally using the N-word to refer to President Obama? Using the middle finger to point to the ceiling or something? Talking with food in his mouth? Slapping Secretary Clinton on the ass?

PsiChick:Erm, no. The ambassador accidentally flipped him off, which is actually an insult because it's like saying 'yeah, I didn't read my briefing on you guys and thus don't know something that children in your country know, even though that's my job'. So the guy flipped him off back. Which I find totally appropriate.

Do people "accidently" extend their arm towards someone raise their middle finger and hold it?

Casually crossing your legs is a normal and comfortable thing in western countries (and not uncommon in Egypt).

You may think it is appropriate to take offense to an action you know is natural to the person you are talking to, but most grown ups expect a little more out of their leaders.

PsiChick:Erm, no. The ambassador accidentally flipped him off, which is actually an insult because it's like saying 'yeah, I didn't read my briefing on you guys and thus don't know something that children in your country know, even though that's my job'

Or, "I'm focusing on the matter at hand right now, you know, the actual reason I'm here, and not zoning out on that so that I can constantly mentally review the hundreds of possible slights that I might accidentally be committing right now."

The guy spent the vast majority of his life living in a completely different culture. He was actually focusing, hard, on the issues he was there for. You know, actually listening to what Ahmadinejad was saying. And yet it appears that Ahmadinejad was just patiently waiting for the chance to (knowingly) give the finger to a diplomat from one of the most tolerant nations on earth. A mature diplomat would quietly correct the behavior. This is 100% political posturing - furthering that "victim" mentality. And, as this thread shows, plenty of Westerners fall for it, hook, line, and sinker.

A mentality like that speaks very poorly of a government that's asking the world community to take it seriously enough to endorse its possession of nuclear technology.

StashMonster:Kumana Wanalaia: meanmutton: Okay, I'm thinking -- what could possibly be similar in our culture? Accidentally using the N-word to refer to President Obama? Using the middle finger to point to the ceiling or something? Talking with food in his mouth? Slapping Secretary Clinton on the ass?

The middle finger pointing at the ceiling is just right.

Should have added visitors to the UK often get this one wrong too - never give the V sign when you just want to say "2" ...

We didn't build the nation, we reconstructed it. HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference.

I'm sure you fancy yourself quite a witty chap, but to the rest of the world, the fact that you can't even be bothered to learn the terminology of world history & politics makes you sound like a dunce. You are akin to a Creationist who doesn't even understand what a scientific theory or the Scientific Sethod is, but insists that Intelligent Design is science.

Maud Dib:StashMonster: Kumana Wanalaia: meanmutton: Okay, I'm thinking -- what could possibly be similar in our culture? Accidentally using the N-word to refer to President Obama? Using the middle finger to point to the ceiling or something? Talking with food in his mouth? Slapping Secretary Clinton on the ass?

The middle finger pointing at the ceiling is just right.

Should have added visitors to the UK often get this one wrong too - never give the V sign when you just want to say "2" ...

[topfavourite.com image 444x500]

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I once had a school teacher who'd spent a couple of years teaching in the UK, and she had an unfortunate habit of counting on her fingers just that way. Apparently it caused quite a ruckus.

The article is British, and they were the ones who got all bend out of shape when the US Ambassador was presented "at court" wearing long pants instead of the traditional silk breeches (=knickers in the US).

Raoul Eaton:give me doughnuts: If something as simple as sitting with your legs crossed is an insult in your culture, then your culture is stupid.

Well, no. I could just as well say that if showing someone your middle finger is an insult, then your culture is stupid. Or making an "O" shape with your forefinger and thumb (not a problem in the U.S., where it actually means "OK," but a big insult in some other places). The list is long. Every culture has behavior that is meaningful to members and seems completely arbitrary to outsiders. And the soles of the feet thing isn't that unusual. I first ran across it as an issue in Thai culture.

THIS.

Culture isn't stupid, it's COMPLETELY arbitrary. In some cultures, burping after a meal is a sign of respect for the chef, in others, it's considered vulgar. Is either interpretation empirically correct? No.

whidbey:BigNumber12: They don't seem to give much of a fark about what the rest of the planet seems to think a government should be. This is why they're having a difficult time with most of the rest of the world wanting as little to do with them as possible. This is Sweden, ffs, bastion of cultural tolerance, and Iran is basically screaming "Fark you!" at them.

So what? Bomb them?

No. Obviously we need to institute Sharia law and declare Islam to be our officially recognized religion. Strawman arguments are fun!

Crossing your legs and showing the soles of your feet are intolerable insults?

Yeah, sorry people, but some things are actual insults and some things are infantile overreactions, and these fall squarely in the latter category. Imagine if blinking too many times in one minute was a grievous insult, or not screaming the lyrics of a Justin Bieber song when you enter and exit someone's home was a grievous insult. You'd think those were ridiculous, too.

Also it's a good idea to NOT assume that everyone else in the world knows everything about your culture and then react petulantly when they commit a faux pas that they didn't know existed. Smart people do this amazing little thing called EXPLAINING.

Oh, that's not how professional national representatives respond to each other on the world diplomatic stage?

Take a look at the photo in TFA again. Amadinnerjacket is not pointing his sole toward the Ambassador from Sweden. It isn't quite "tit for tat" thing, and the person that wrote the article is an idiot for assuming that it is.

CheekyMonkey:sprawl15: whidbey: We reconstructed Japan and Germany after a war.

This.

We didn't build the nation, we reconstructed it. HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference.

I'm sure you fancy yourself quite a witty chap, but to the rest of the world, the fact that you can't even be bothered to learn the terminology of world history & politics makes you sound like a dunce. You are akin to a Creationist who doesn't even understand what a scientific theory or the Scientific Sethod is, but insists that Intelligent Design is science.

ID is far more scientific than that idolatrous worship of Darwin's corpse. It tries to find out how and why God did a bunch of interesting and beautiful things while neo-Darwinists just say CHANCE DID IT LOL.

sprawl15:CheekyMonkey: sprawl15: whidbey: We reconstructed Japan and Germany after a war.

This.

We didn't build the nation, we reconstructed it. HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference.

I'm sure you fancy yourself quite a witty chap, but to the rest of the world, the fact that you can't even be bothered to learn the terminology of world history & politics makes you sound like a dunce. You are akin to a Creationist who doesn't even understand what a scientific theory or the Scientific Sethod is, but insists that Intelligent Design is science.

ID is far more scientific than that idolatrous worship of Darwin's corpse. It tries to find out how and why God did a bunch of interesting and beautiful things while neo-Darwinists just say CHANCE DID IT LOL.

As opposed to the big bang theory where you have to just accept on faith something came from nothing and not question how, like the scientific method dictates

Oh, that's not how professional national representatives respond to each other on the world diplomatic stage?

Take a look at the photo in TFA again. Amadinnerjacket is not pointing his sole toward the Ambassador from Sweden. It isn't quite "tit for tat" thing, and the person that wrote the article is an idiot for assuming that it is.

All I had to go on was a photo and the reporter's analysis.

I certainly hope that TFA is BS, and Ahmadinejad is more reasonable than this.

If the pictures in the article tell the whole story, it appears that Ambassador Tejler innocently exposed his immaculate, thousand-dollar shoe sole only to the Iranian President. Then President Ahmadinejad impertinently raised his foot to expose his sole TO THE CAMERAS AND HIS ENTIRE COUNTRY!!! Tejler couldn't even have seen it from his angle. Where is the President's apology to his people?

Joe Blowme:sprawl15: CheekyMonkey: sprawl15: whidbey: We reconstructed Japan and Germany after a war.

This.

We didn't build the nation, we reconstructed it. HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference.

I'm sure you fancy yourself quite a witty chap, but to the rest of the world, the fact that you can't even be bothered to learn the terminology of world history & politics makes you sound like a dunce. You are akin to a Creationist who doesn't even understand what a scientific theory or the Scientific Sethod is, but insists that Intelligent Design is science.

ID is far more scientific than that idolatrous worship of Darwin's corpse. It tries to find out how and why God did a bunch of interesting and beautiful things while neo-Darwinists just say CHANCE DID IT LOL.

As opposed to the big bang theory where you have to just accept on faith something came from nothing and not question how, like the scientific method dictates

The entire point of science is FINDING OUT HOW, dipshiat. I have never, EVER, heard a scientist say "DON'T QUESTION HOW, JUST BELIEVE AND FOLLOW ME!".

We didn't build the nation, we reconstructed it. HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference.

I'm sure you fancy yourself quite a witty chap, but to the rest of the world, the fact that you can't even be bothered to learn the terminology of world history & politics makes you sound like a dunce. You are akin to a Creationist who doesn't even understand what a scientific theory or the Scientific Sethod is, but insists that Intelligent Design is science.

ID is far more scientific than that idolatrous worship of Darwin's corpse. It tries to find out how and why God did a bunch of interesting and beautiful things while neo-Darwinists just say CHANCE DID IT LOL.

As opposed to the big bang theory where you have to just accept on faith something came from nothing and not question how, like the scientific method dictates

The entire point of science is FINDING OUT HOW, dipshiat. I have never, EVER, heard a scientist say "DON'T QUESTION HOW, JUST BELIEVE AND FOLLOW ME!".

No scientist yet has been able to answer why there are still monkeys if we evolved from them. We're superior in every way. So either the neo-Darwinists are saying that they think less of their fellow human beings than they think of a random monkey or they're just not looking at their own assumptions.

And don't even get me started on the hilarious disconnect of the neo-Darwinists and their economic theories. Demand side economics states that if people stop eating bananas, they'll stop growing. Obviously a ridiculous conclusion.

Macular Degenerate:I'm all for celebrating diversity and all that, but this is just crap. These fooking muslims need to get over themselves.

No they don't need to get over themselves. They have their culture and if we want discourse with them, we have to respect it, just as we expect them to respect ours. So if we find their cultural mores unacceptable, it is we who need to get over them. NTTAWWT.