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Re: Keeping David West

Do you ever wonder if the Pacers do actually see Paul George as more of a 3 instead of a 2 if maybe they just move Danny to the 4?

In today's NBA Danny at the 4 would be more than capable vs. most teams.

If so the team may be ok letting West walk if the money is not right & either signing another guard or re-signing D.J. Augistine to play along side Hill.

Danny matches up very well vs. a lot of 4's anyway and as he gets older he may progress to that position.

Especially when you look at lineups that Eastern Playoff teams throw out.

Miami plays LeBron at the 4, Danny has to guard him.
The Knicks (Stretch to call them a playoff team, haha) play Melo at the 4.
The Celtics will at times play Pierce at the 4, with Rondo/Bradley/Lee in the backcourt.
the Bulls at times pushed Deng up to the 4, although I doubt they'd do that now with Rose out.
The Sixers often played a 3 at the 4.

Not a terrible thought, but I'm not saying I'm in favor of watching West walk.

Really though, threads like these with the obnoxious fighting/sarcasm make it difficult to enjoy coming to this site, especially during the offseason. No one is willing to admit they are wrong, or even that the other person is right. vnzla often makes quality points, but does so in a manner that is offensive to many other posters and doesn't foster further conversation and discussion. Then people respond by being offensive to vn, and the cycle goes on and on.

Re: Keeping David West

Really though, threads like these with the obnoxious fighting/sarcasm make it difficult to enjoy coming to this site, especially during the offseason. No one is willing to admit they are wrong, or even that the other person is right. vnzla often makes quality points, but does so in a manner that is offensive to many other posters and doesn't foster further conversation and discussion. Then people respond by being offensive to vn, and the cycle goes on and on.

Re: Keeping David West

You do realize that players tend to take about a year to fully come back from the type of injury West had right?

I know that it takes a while for somebody to fully recover from a knee injury like the one West had, I also know that older players like him sometimes don't fully recover from an injury like that and they usually lose and step or two, not only because of the injury but because of age, that happens to a lot of players every year but it seems like many here are leaving in some type of alternate universe were older players don't get old and someway somehow they even get better than what they were in their prime.

He should be much better this season, he has been a consistent 19-21 ppg player for years, he won't score that much on a balanced team like ours, but he's alot better than you give him credit for

He was getting 18.9 before the injury and with CP3 feeding all the time, he is never going to get back to where he was before the injury, PLAYERS GET OLDER, the guy is going to be 33, why is so hard for people to understand this? Jeff Foster retired last year at 33 years of age, West is going to be lucky if he has two years left in him.

I also see that when you talk about him getting better you mean on the offensive side of the court, but why you and others don't talk about the defensive side of the court when you talk about him? or his lack of rebounding? I remember few years ago when the Pacers had a power forward that averaged 15 and 10 but the only thing everybody in PD would talk about was about his defense, now defense doesn't matter anymore?

By the way once again I'm coming across as a hater but I'm not, I know what he brings to the table, I also like his leadership, I like that he is vocal on the court but the thing that grind my gears around here is that many of the people that are elevating West into "Pacers MVP" status are the ones that when they talk about other players (specially Seth with Tyler Hansbrough) all of the sudden they remember that there is another side of the court.

Re: Keeping David West

Not trying to start an argument or anything like that but I'm pretty sure a lot of power forwards can score 12ppg, hell even Tyler in his horrible year last year was able to average 9ppg.

Let's bend those stats a little more shall we?

Tyler scored 9PPG at a blistering 40.5% shooting.

West scored 12.8 at 48.7% shooting....coming off an ACL injury.

Tyler Hansbrough was maybe the single biggest detriment to any team's offense in the entire league last season. He was that bad. He was a black hole of epic proportions.

It should be noted West's scoring went up in the playoffs to nearly 15 PPG while still shooting right around 45% from the field. West has been nearly a 50% shooter his whole career. Comparing Tyler and West in any way on the offensive end is just not something one can do. There is a big, big skill gap between the two of them.

Now, as far as what the Pacers will do with West, I think that will be a big factor in how well the team does this year. West doesn't seem like type to chase money, so if his family is happy here, the Pacers are winning, I could see us offering him a 4 year deal for around $20million.

Re: Keeping David West

[QUOTE=vnzla81;1508171]

I know that it takes a while for somebody to fully recover from a knee injury like the one West had, I also know that older players like him sometimes don't fully recover from an injury like that and they usually lose and step or two, not only because of the injury but because of age, that happens to a lot of players every year but it seems like many here are leaving in some type of alternate universe were older players don't get old and someway somehow they even get better than what they were in their prime.

He was getting 18.9 before the injury and with CP3 feeding all the time, he is never going to get back to where he was before the injury, PLAYERS GET OLDER, the guy is going to be 33, why is so hard for people to understand this? Jeff Foster retired last year at 33 years of age, West is going to be lucky if he has two years left in him.

I also see that when you talk about him getting better you mean on the offensive side of the court, but why you and others don't talk about the defensive side of the court when you talk about him? or his lack of rebounding? I remember few years ago when the Pacers had a power forward that averaged 15 and 10 but the only thing everybody in PD would talk about was about his defense, now defense doesn't matter anymore?

By the way once again I'm coming across as a hater but I'm not, I know what he brings to the table, I also like his leadership, I like that he is vocal on the court but the thing that grind my gears around here is that many of the people that are elevating West into "Pacers MVP" status are the ones that when they talk about other players (specially Seth with Tyler Hansbrough) all of the sudden they remember that there is another side of the court.

Who says that he's better than he was in his prime? There is a big difference between that and saying he could likely average more than he did last year with an offseason of training instead of rehab.

Plus, it isn't like West ever really relied on athleticism all that much, and 32 isn't exactly ancient for a power forward. He should age nicely, and he did noticeably improve later in the season, consistent with regaining confidence in his knee. He was a 15 ppg on 54% in 28ish minutes in April and was 15-8 in the playoffs, where defenses are tougher and points are harder to come by. It isn't like the dude is washed up. I don't think he's our MVP or anything, but he's an important piece. As for whether he'll fully come back all sources point towards yes, be it West, who claims he feels better than he has in years physically (and West isn't the type to BS) to observers of our training camp, who have pointed out he is more spry than he was last season.

Foster has nothing to do with West, Foster dealt with chronic back problems for years, that is why he retired, not because he was too old to play. West on the otherhand has been very healthy and injury free, no chronic problems, the freak injury during his final season in NO is really the only issue, and it appears to be an isolated incident.

I don't really count on West for great defense or plus rebounding, his major contributions are on offense, and he should be better there than last year. Who says defense doesn't matter? That is a separate issue entirely from the argument that his game will be improved with full health and an offseason of training, don't move the goalposts. As for Murphy, West scores the ball in more useful ways (you can actually give him the ball and he'll make a play with it, unlike murphy who was pretty much just a shooter) a better passer, and yes, he isn't as bad as murphy on defense. His contract also isn't killing the team, not to mention intangibles.

Additionally West was never made by CP3, in 2009-2010 CP3 missed almost all of February and March and April

West put up

19.7 ppg on 47 percent in february
21.2 ppg on 54 percent in march
19.2 ppg on 56.5 percent in april

West was who he was/is with or without CP3. In fact that year he put up BETTER numbers with CP3 out.

Tyler Hansbrough was maybe the single biggest detriment to any team's offense in the entire league last season. He was that bad. He was a black hole of epic proportions.

Yes Tyler was crap last year.

It should be noted West's scoring went up in the playoffs to nearly 15 PPG while still shooting right around 45% from the field. West has been nearly a 50% shooter his whole career.

It should be also noted that West didn't play against a good defensive PF on the playoffs either, we can't ignore that, I bet those numbers are different if Bosh was healthy.

Comparing Tyler and West in any way on the offensive end is just not something one can do. There is a big, big skill gap between the two of them.

I agree.

Now, as far as what the Pacers will do with West, I think that will be a big factor in how well the team does this year. West doesn't seem like type to chase money, so if his family is happy here, the Pacers are winning, I could see us offering him a 4 year deal for around $20million.

Remember when people thought that Roy was going to take a pay cut? yeah whoever offers West the most money is going to get him and I really hope they don't sign him for 4 years.

Re: Keeping David West

Love, Josh Smith,Ryan Anderson,Gasol, Dirk, Millsap, Andrea Bargnani,Amare, Zbo and Nene need to be on that list you posted, just because some of them shoot 3's and don't meet the requirements that you are talking about is not reason to punish them, at the end of the day they still play the position, what are you going to post next? players that go left more per game making West a top 5 left handed scorer?

Let's see what Ryan Anderson does with no Dwight Howard. You are complaining about West's D and rebounding yet you list Bargnani?

Are you not going to give West any credit for his leadership and impact on the locker room? We know you want to upgrade the talent on the roster. Do you really think sacrificing West's leadership is the best place to do that at?

Re: Keeping David West

Especially when you look at lineups that Eastern Playoff teams throw out.

Miami plays LeBron at the 4, Danny has to guard him.
The Knicks (Stretch to call them a playoff team, haha) play Melo at the 4.
The Celtics will at times play Pierce at the 4, with Rondo/Bradley/Lee in the backcourt.
the Bulls at times pushed Deng up to the 4, although I doubt they'd do that now with Rose out.
The Sixers often played a 3 at the 4.

Not a terrible thought, but I'm not saying I'm in favor of watching West walk.

Really though, threads like these with the obnoxious fighting/sarcasm make it difficult to enjoy coming to this site, especially during the offseason. No one is willing to admit they are wrong, or even that the other person is right. vnzla often makes quality points, but does so in a manner that is offensive to many other posters and doesn't foster further conversation and discussion. Then people respond by being offensive to vn, and the cycle goes on and on.

Re: Keeping David West

[QUOTE=vnzla81;1508171]

I know that it takes a while for somebody to fully recover from a knee injury like the one West had, I also know that older players like him sometimes don't fully recover from an injury like that and they usually lose and step or two, not only because of the injury but because of age, that happens to a lot of players every year but it seems like many here are leaving in some type of alternate universe were older players don't get old and someway somehow they even get better than what they were in their prime.

He was getting 18.9 before the injury and with CP3 feeding all the time, he is never going to get back to where he was before the injury, PLAYERS GET OLDER, the guy is going to be 33, why is so hard for people to understand this? Jeff Foster retired last year at 33 years of age, West is going to be lucky if he has two years left in him.

I also see that when you talk about him getting better you mean on the offensive side of the court, but why you and others don't talk about the defensive side of the court when you talk about him? or his lack of rebounding? I remember few years ago when the Pacers had a power forward that averaged 15 and 10 but the only thing everybody in PD would talk about was about his defense, now defense doesn't matter anymore?

By the way once again I'm coming across as a hater but I'm not, I know what he brings to the table, I also like his leadership, I like that he is vocal on the court but the thing that grind my gears around here is that many of the people that are elevating West into "Pacers MVP" status are the ones that when they talk about other players (specially Seth with Tyler Hansbrough) all of the sudden they remember that there is another side of the court.

Didn't you want us to pick up Luis Scola this offseason? Luis is probably even less athletic than West, and is 4 months older than West. So why would we want to dump West, yet try and sign Scola when they're the same age, and play basically the same way?

I agree with you that West will decline as he gets older. Though I think he'll put up big numbers this year, I think he would be best utilized as a 6th man type PF off the bench after this season. Idk if he would want to go for that, but I think it'd extend his career, allow him to finish up as a Pacer (I've heard his family likes it here) and allows the team to utilize what skills he has left, while not having to fully rely on an aging, average defender/rebouder from the starting PF spot.

Re: Keeping David West

Who says that he's better than he was in his prime? There is a big difference between that and saying he could likely average more than he did last year with an offseason of training instead of rehab.

Expecting 19/21ppg from West is expecting him to be better than in his prime and with CP3 feeding him, maybe you don't mean it that way but that is how it looks to me, West averaged 21ppg only one time.

Plus, it isn't like West ever really relied on athleticism all that much, and 32 isn't exactly ancient for a power forward. He should age nicely, and he did noticeably improve later in the season, consistent with regaining confidence in his knee. He was a 15 ppg on 54% in 28ish minutes in April and was 15-8 in the playoffs, where defenses are tougher and points are harder to come by. It isn't like the dude is washed up. I don't think he's our MVP or anything, but he's an important piece. As for whether he'll fully come back all sources point towards yes, be it West, who claims he feels better than he has in years physically (and West isn't the type to BS) to observers of our training camp, who have pointed out he is more spry than he was last season.

We will have to see, I remember hearing the same thing from JO every single year.

Foster has nothing to do with West, Foster dealt with chronic back problems for years, that is why he retired, not because he was too old to play. West on the otherhand has been very healthy and injury free, no chronic problems, the freak injury during his final season in NO is really the only issue, and it appears to be an isolated incident.

Back problems and too old to play, 33 is old in the NBA.

I don't really count on West for great defense or plus rebounding, his major contributions are on offense, and he should be better there than last year. Who says defense doesn't matter? That is a separate issue entirely from the argument that his game will be improved with full health and an offseason of training, don't move the goalposts. As for Murphy, West scores the ball in more useful ways (you can actually give him the ball and he'll make a play with it, unlike murphy who was pretty much just a shooter) a better passer, and yes, he isn't as bad as murphy on defense. His contract also isn't killing the team, not to mention intangibles.

Unless your plan is to play West on the offensive side and then sub him and have somebody else playing D then the argument is not separate, if he is on the court he needs to play in both sides so nope I'm not moving no goalpost.

Re: Keeping David West

West and JO's bodies are clearly maintained at completely different levels. JO was never as cut as West is even in his prime. JO was obviously more talented, but West will have the longer career IMO. JO was a pudge by the time his years in Indy were through. Whether that was through injuries or what, JO talked a lot about being in shape, West is just about being in shape.

Re: Keeping David West

Trader Joe;1508186]Let's see what Ryan Anderson does with no Dwight Howard. You are complaining about West's D and rebounding yet you list Bargnani?

Yes Bargnani sucks at rebounding that doesn't mean that he is not on that list.

Are you not going to give West any credit for his leadership and impact on the locker room? We know you want to upgrade the talent on the roster. Do you really think sacrificing West's leadership is the best place to do that at?

I did, go back few posts and read what I posted, yes I like his leadership and his impact on the locker room but at the end of the day you need players that get it done and make you better and if the goal is to make it to a championship there has to be an upgrade at that position.

Re: Keeping David West

Why not keep West's leadership and strength at PF and try to upgrade SG or SF? That would be my logic if I was building the team right now. I would only upgrade West if it was a very large upgrade from someone who was not viewed as a locker room killer. How many PF's are on that list? Maybe 2 or 3?

Re: Keeping David West

Didn't you want us to pick up Luis Scola this offseason? Luis is probably even less athletic than West, and is 4 months older than West. So why would we want to dump West, yet try and sign Scola when they're the same age, and play basically the same way?

I agree with you that West will decline as he gets older. Though I think he'll put up big numbers this year, I think he would be best utilized as a 6th man type PF off the bench after this season. Idk if he would want to go for that, but I think it'd extend his career, allow him to finish up as a Pacer (I've heard his family likes it here) and allows the team to utilize what skills he has left, while not having to fully rely on an aging, average defender/rebouder from the starting PF spot.

Scola was pretty much there for free that's the reason why I wanted him, not only that but he could have been a pretty good option off the bench replacing Tyler, I don't think Scola makes the Pacers championship contenders either.

Re: Keeping David West

Why not keep West's leadership and strength at PF and try to upgrade SG or SF? That would be my logic if I was building the team right now. I would only upgrade West if it was a very large upgrade from someone who was not viewed as a locker room killer. How many PF's are on that list? Maybe 2 or 3?

Because West is the older player that is also going to be a free agent? yes his leadership is nice but you still need talent at that position, I get that many of you put leadership in front of talent for some reason but as we all know talent triumphs over leadership every time.

Re: Keeping David West

Because West is the older player that is also going to be a free agent? yes his leadership is nice but you still need talent at that position, I get that many of you put leadership in front of talent for some reason but as we all know talent triumphs over leadership every time.

You are looking at this way too black and white IMO. Yes he is older and yes he is going to be a free agent, but that doesn't mean that a situation won't present itself where you could upgrade the 2 or the 3 and keep West on a reasonable deal. Saying welp, he's a free agent and older so we might as well just throw our hands up in the air and let him walk is not problem solving, that's just accepting the situation.

Re: Keeping David West

EDIT: And in reality, Phoenix is giving him closer to 3/14M, so the Pacers or any other team would have needed to put in an even pricer bid to get him.

4.3mil a year for Scola is pretty much free, 4.3mil for a guy like West would also be pretty much free, having either player for that amount of money to come off the bench is a good deal in my opinion.

Re: Keeping David West

You are looking at this way too black and white IMO. Yes he is older and yes he is going to be a free agent, but that doesn't mean that a situation won't present itself where you could upgrade the 2 or the 3 and keep West on a reasonable deal. Saying welp, he's a free agent and older so we might as well just throw our hands up in the air and let him walk is not problem solving, that's just accepting the situation.

The thing to me is that West is not part of the future, why remove either PG or Danny so you can keep him? I think the Pacers need to go younger, they should aim to have multiple players hitting their prime at the same time, without a superstar that is the only hope a team like the Pacers have, Hill, Roy and Paul George are going to hit their primes pretty much at the same time, why not get two young players that can do the same thing?

Many here talk about the "Detroit way" but forget to mention that the reason why they were so good was because their whole starting unit hit their prime at the same time, that to me is the way to do it.

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Re: Keeping David West

I think we keep West. I think it is our full intention of keeping him and I believe that we will sign him to a three year deal for roughly $24M. Daivd West has a game that translates extremely well as he ages. He can play Center minutes as he gets older as well.

His rebounding and defense aren't nearly as bad as what is being conveyed. He is an excellent team defender with his rotations and always making the right decisions. He lacked lateral quickness last year, which hurt him more than anything, but that is more a result of his knee injury and improves with time. He isn't going to block a ton of shots either. But he is light years better than Troy Murphy on defense and more conducive to our team concept on offense as well. Troy was never in DWest's ball park. David West is a good rebounder, but he is better for our team as a rebounder. We have long wings who rebound well. And we have a giant in the middle who rebounds high up. What we get from West is the tough rebounds where he bodies guys out of the lane. He frees up the other guys for rebounds a lot that he doesn't get credit for in the box score.

What he does is fit our team perfectly style wise. He runs that high to low post game wonderfully well on offense. He passes very well and moves without the ball to compensate for defensive rotations. He fills the lane. He hits the outside jumper that none of our other bigs can. He bodies up other players on defense better than anyone else on our team. Did you see Lebron James trying with all of his might to fight against West in the post? He might be a bit slower than he used to be, but speed has never been a great skill of his. He is strong and tough and that is the primary thing we need from the PF spot as this team is constructed.

David West is worth more to this team than he would be to other teams because of the way he fits the roster. He covers skill sets that we wouldn't other wise have. We would be dumb as a franchise to not pursue signing a very capable player who CHOSE US AS A FREE AGENT! We all complain about that, and we are a franchise that needs to convey loyalty. I'm not saying make all decisions on loyalty per se, but I think it would be a slap in the face to other free agents who would even consider Indy. He is mature and a family man. That can't be stated enough. He fits Indy. He isn't some young hot shot who wants to go get laid at 5 in the morning at clubs with skanky women. Those guys play in NYC and LA and Miami.

The only way I don't see us re-signing him is if he gets injured this year and we trade his expiring contract.

"Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."