Posted
by
Zonk
on Wednesday November 22, 2006 @01:49PM
from the games-killed-those-people dept.

Bret540 writes "A Reuters news story reports that German lawmakers are considering a crackdown on 'violent computer and simulated war games' because a youth decided to attack other students at his school. The young man was apparently already under police consideration for weapons-related violations, and was described as 'someone with no friends.'" From the article: "Wolfgang Bosbach, the deputy head of Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats (CDU) in parliament, said it was time to consider banning games that simulate wanton killing. 'We need effective guidelines to protect children from exposure to different types of media, but we don't need (simulated) killer games that can lead to brutalisation,' Bosbach was quoted on the Netzeitung news Web site as saying." InfoWorld has more details on the event as well.

Its hard to imagine living in a country with legalized prostitution that you could get that upset and want to go on a killing spree. While the video game may have influenced the kid into going on a "killing spree" (the voice from quake comes to mind), thats the price of freedom. I suppose Germany is on its way to banning other articles that incite violence... perhaps a crack at the Korahn and the Bible are next considering video games pale in comparison in the levels of violence that they incite.

Yes that is the funny thing, both incidents, Ehrfuhrt and the other one were done by young adults.
In the first case the school system and being stamped a total loser definitely was the cause in the other one it is rather unclear. In the first case the weapons were obtained by legal means and the guy either learned shooting in the military or shooting club.
But in both cases the usual bunch of we go on a witchhunt politicians crawl out and start to talk about how to ban things they are afraid of instead of

Ban religious books?<br>I think you might have a good idea there...Considering the violence these books sparked in the last few millenia!<br>Oh, BTW, choosing between sex (free or paid:) and a killing spree, I would chose the former, so in that spirit, let them ban killing simulations and keep prostitution legal instead the other way round, as some countries, *cough* US *cough*, intend to!<br>cheers

But the funny thing with this(ok, schoolshooting rarely have "funny things" to consider, but just tag along) is that the shooter himself stated that he was doing it because the only thing his school ever taught him, was to hate. He was mad at the school and it's administration because they didn't do anything about the fact that he was bullied for years. "Someone with no friends" indeed.

That is specifically my point (or one of my points, as I have many). I don't know about the USA, but in Germany day nurseries are rare and parents indeed let the TV raise their children.

If somebody thinks that such a ban is unlikely, think again. Bavaria, for example, banned cell phones in schools because of a few cases of violent videos on students' phones. Instead of solving the cause, they ban the symptoms. Experts already stated that the bill is likely to pass parliament.

Cell phones should be banned from public schools. Not for violence, but for their sheer annoyance. There's no reason a high schooler would need one.

To the rest of your comment: it will be impossible to ban video games. That's like banning alcohol; it's so central to people's lives that it will find a way around. Especially today, with the magics of teh interweb and a computer in every home.

So, I'm not saying a ban is unlikely, I'm just saying it'll be completely ineffective.

Switched on cell phones are banned from the whole school compound. If you have something very important to tell your parents, you have to ask a teacher for permission.

But about your other point:
Here's [golem.de] an (unfortunately German) article with experts saying there should be an access restriction system to internet sites with those games. God knows what they have planned *shudders*

I disagree that there's no reason for a high school student to have a cell phone. In my part of the US, at least, the schools won't let students have access to telephones via the school except by pay phone. When I was in high school I would frequently go places with my friends after school, and my parents' ability to keep tabs on me was what let me do this. I agree that they're annoying as all hell when a ringtone is unleashed upon a class full of unsuspecting students, but they should be turned off in class, not banned from the school. FYI, people sometimes have cell phones ringing in college classes.

Students should be treated as semi-adult in schools, and shouldn't have much of anything banned. Rather, if they use something to damage school property or disrupt class they should be punished for the disruption. The attitude of "one person used it to do bad things so it must be bad" is a terrible attitude to have since it relegates all priveledges to the control of the least common denominator. If the worst kid in school does something bad with their cell phone, then suddenly nobody is allowed to have them lest they turn into the same kind of disciplinary problem.

I had a professor who would make you sing the Star Spangled Banner in front of the class if your cell rang in class. He said that it only takes one student singing before everyone starts turning their phones off before class. My class got treated to two performances, apparently a first for that professor... pretty sad since it was a summer class with only ten students, in a class that normally has about 30 enrolled in the fall/spring.

Man, I just got to point out that disaffected kids have been killing since before computer games were about- Check out this snopes article on the above mentioned Boomtown Rats song http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/mondays.asp [snopes.com]
It has some info on 'prior art'....

Also horsecrap. I don't think it is possible to say "yes, xyz is at fault, and nothing but xyz". I agree, coddling is a problem. I currently attend the equivalent of high school, and there are plenty of people who fit into this category. But certainly, parents not playing an active role in their children's lives is just as bad as parents playing too much of a role.

Just because *you* turned out fine, doesn't mean that everyone will. After all, everyone is different, reacts to problems differently and no

1) He wasnt blaming the victims. He was blaming the parents for not raising a child capable of dealing with ridicule. Obviously it isnt the child's fault he hasn't been taught how to stand up for himself.

2) Stop crying you fucking baby. Maybe your parents need to teach you how to handle being modded a troll.

Or maybe people shouldn't be going around modding people trolls and flamebaiters for no reason (and maybe Slashot's modding system shouldn't be so fucking retarded). See how you're blaming me instead of blaming the people abusing mod points?

Blaming you for what? For having a tantrum? You having a tantrum isn't the fault of the slashdot moderation system or the moderators. You being modded a troll was their choice. You reacting poorly was your choice.

Also, screaming bloody murder every time you get modded down is pretty childish.

But clearly, abusing mod points is not childish at all.

One of the biggest ironies here is that people posting anonymously are "anonymous cowards," yet people assigning mod points are equally anonymous, and they don't even have to justify or explain their decisions.

What I meant was, when things like the Germany incident happen, various groups jump and down screaming, "It's the video games! Ban them!". However, when someone like Andrea Yates goes and kills their kids because God told them to do so, no one jumps up and down screaming, "It's the bible! Ban it!"

Instead, what happens is the person is sent for a mental evaluation and is usually, but not always, declared mentally unstable.

Characterize that with the Columbine incident and you'll hear that they were misguided people who were swayed to action by playing violent video games.

I see what you mean now. However, I would submit that there are similarly vocal groups that are poised to blame religion or "the Bible" for any of a number of violent acts. Violent video games are a hotter topic right now with a loud enough group of people voicing their dissent. This is for a number of reasons not the least of which are that it's hard to argue FOR violence in video games and in general video games are considered a negative for people spending too much time on them. The Bible, on the oth

(Now some genius usually comes up with different part of the Books where killing is encouraged. Well I can speak only for christians but the guy said he came to fullfill the law. So it needed fullfilment. So all things in the bible are not orthogonally important. But Moses tablets and the speech of Jesus seem quite important to me, what do you say?)

Your scenario is like blaming math because a corrupt accountant steals money.

It's a very sad situation in Germany. The attitude towards computer games is a joke. Games get bashed for everything.
Unfortunately, the ban may also include the production of violent computer games. If it passes (which, I hope, it doesn't) you may as well say goodbye to "Crysis" because Crytek is German...
I submitted a story about this, too, but it is still pending...

If it does, I'd assume that Crysis would leave the country, and the developers with it, in complete disgust, and a desire for profit. Well, either that or they throw in the towel like Lik-Sang.

Every time a nation becomes more restrictive, more of the free thinkers leave for other countries. This process makes the restriction a downward spiral and the nation in question makes itself more and more irrelevant.

This is flamebait? I wonder how the US got Einstein and Fermi amongst others...

Don't worry about it, I've picked up a couple of serial downvoters recently. I don't think anyone actually thought it was flamebait, it was just a comment that I made that might be construed as flamebait by an idiot during metamoderation.

Actually the funny thing is:
Schützenverein (shoot club) = good...
Draft military after 16 with possible war entry = good
games + internet = root of all evil... and an adult
with 18 shooting clearly was caused by games nothing else...
There clearly is a generation gap in germany regarding this issues. Those people come from a generation which does not know anything about thos issues and clearly have a problem to see the complexities of the situation.
(see also me longer comment regarding this)

They'reby no means "slim". Everybody has to be inspected, and as long as you're fit you are classed as suitable, and have a pretty good chance of being drawn in.Most though do a civilian service, and that's how they keep the number of recruits low.

It's not unusual for convicted criminals to be put on probation and required not to own or engage in various activities. Sex offenders, for instance, are not allowed to live near schools.

So how about adding violent (rated M) video games to that list? If you're teenager convicted of some violent crime, part of your punishment is a prohibition on owning and playing these games. That way, the 99.9999% of the population who are not influenced by these games to commit crimes won't also be punished.

That's a really good point. To me, it seems utterly ridiculous to add video games to a list of prohibited actions/items for criminals on probation, but that says a lot about video games in other ways. If most people think that it would be silly to ban video games for violent offenders, then obviously those people don't think that video games are a significant factor for violence. If we keep guns away from convicted felons because we don't want them to shoot someone yet we let them play video games, then

Unfortunately, the ESRB [esrb.org] provides those ratings strictly for consumer self-recognisance and parental benefit. They state that that are "the game industry's self-regulating body", not a department of state.

As far as I'm aware, the ratings can't be legally enforced outside of sanctions/penalties within the gaming industry.

Germany already has the strongest laws in the world regarding this. The main problem is, that the causes of the incident are not very clear yet. The main problem in germany is that once an incident happens, the usual 5 or 6 politicians crawl out of their holes and the minute this happens they cry to the media they need more enforcement regarding the internet and regarding games (in the 80s it was movies, that has worn off)

The problem in this case is, the guy, a young adult, being 18, you become entirely adult with 19 in germany, left a note on the net sort of a help cry which led to this incident, the games definitely were not the cause of this, though they might be a small part to the puzzle as probably was other media. The main question to this case is, why did no one really notice upfront, and why did the last message of him go mostly unnoticed and how did this young man (he was not a child anymore) develop such a hatred that he did not see any other solution anymore than to do what he did (he did not come from a broken background, he had a nice family and generally grew up in a suburbian environment).

The main problem for the usual bunch of politicians this time is, that the media does not buy the cheap, lets ban what we do not understand trick anymore. To my suprise yesterday evening I saw in german public TV ZDF a very unbiased view to the whole issue and the general consensous in the press so far seems, that lets do a more rigorous ban on something those guys simply do not understand is not the solution you only remove a small part of the puzzle why the causes themselves seem to be elsewhere.

Have in mind the last two incidents were done by young adults, one being definitely member in a Schützenverein (which is sort of a shooting club) but those bonehead politicians never even mentioned the word. The general consensous in this generation gap of politics is, young people = games are a media form we grew up with and can deal with it, internet = opportunities

Old people = internet root of all evil we have to control it, games = root of all evil we have to ban it.

As far as I can see at least there seems to be a slow generation shift in the general media towards younger people who have a clearer view regarding this complex net of causes and results. People like Stoiber (being over retirement age), Merkel (slowly creeping against retirement age) and others simply do not get it. They are on a witch hunt without result because it is easier to target something they do not understand than to look at the real causes which are maybe harder to solve or impossible to solve on the side of politics.

I do not think it is weasally, I think more along the lines of a huge generation gap in understanding certain media.
Politicians tend to be rather old, and old people tend to have two problems generally, they develop a certain paranoia about things they do not understand and they do not understand a lot of newer things.
And yes weasly politicians are a huge problem worldwide, same goes for lobbying, as far as I understand german politics as an outsider from a neighbouring country, the political system has

To my suprise yesterday evening I saw in german public TV ZDF a very unbiased view to the whole issue and the general consensous in the press so far seems, that lets do a more rigorous ban on something those guys simply do not understand is not the solution you only remove a small part of the puzzle why the causes themselves seem to be elsewhere.

Same in France. I was very surprised a couple weeks ago, while watching some hi-rating newscast where they interviewed a child physchologyst about video games. I

It is well know that Hitler played ET on an Atari 2600. The Schlieffen Plan was previously known as the ColecoVision Congo Bongo Strategy (damned historians rewriting history). God knows the impact of the Gizmondo's Momma Can I Mow the Lawn on the German mentality.

When I was 12 we got our first computer, a 386 and I started with the PC version of Mortal Kombat, then.. Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, Blood, Quake, yadda yadda, all the violent FPs, full of 'satanic' symbols, fowl language, blood, gore, sweat and more fun than you can shake a stick at.
but I had parents that tought me the basis of right and wrong and what was real and not real.
and I turned out just fine, except.. sometimes, when shopping in an over crowded mall I have fantasies about God mode, two Uzis and and unlimited ammo.

Christa Stewens, family minister for the conservative-led state of Bavaria, called for a nationwide ban on war games like paintball and laser tag, in which players hunt down and pretend to kill each other with guns firing paint balls or laser beams.
"The federal government must finally ban (simulated) killer games... Bavaria has had such a ban in place since 2002," Stewens said in a statement.

Paintball and LaserTag, Simulated Deathmatch, OK maybe not fit for minors. I laserTagged my way through 1985 never made me want to kill anyone, but I can almost see her point.

She added that children should also be prevented from playing violent computer games.

Restricting M rated games to people of Mature Age is also acceptable.

The federal government has so far refused to ban such games.

Ahh, the system works.

The opposition Greens warned against banning violent computer and war games.

Opposition? Soory, here in the US we don't allow such things.

Volker Beck, a leading Greens member of parliament, said it would be better to focus the debate on the proper use of computers and not jump to conclusions before it was clear what motivated Bastian B.

Clear Heads working in government, I am shocked. Now I know why we call'em foriegners.

This 18yr old was due in court for weapons violations. Hmmmm. I wonder what his otivations could be. Notice no call for banning the weapons and explosions he used. Maybe they should just mandate that every teen must be laid at least once before graduation, as long as we are talking about motivation.

Well, I can drag out the tired old arguements of alcohol prohibition in the U.S., and the U.S. war on drugs... they are a dead horse, but it deserves some beating just because so few people understand the concept...

Currently, software developers use a lot of discretion in what they produce, and they do a pretty good job making sure the games are not sold to minors and not marketed to them. They might not do a perfect job, but there are a clear and established set of guidlines that they follow, a set of guidelines that stores follow, and it works OK.

Ban violent video games, and instead of violent video games being sold in legit stores, by legit companies, you are going to instead shift that buisness to the black market, who will not be able to compete in quality but instead will outdue each other in how graphicly violent, demented, and disturbing the games can be, and they will sell them online from outside Germany.

You never ever ever improve a situation by driving a product from being sold by legit buisnesses to be sold by the black market. It won't reduce violent video games, it will make them more violent. It will not make violent video games harder to get, it will make them easier to get. Just like any high school kid knows, it is way easier to get weed than alcohol... and any gun owners knows that it is cheaper and easier to get an AK-47 on the black market than to legaly purchase a modest licened pistol in most places... this kind of legislation is just going to drive the production of video games into the hands of those who most want to exploit children.

All attempts to ban victimless crimes fail... and they fail because the government can't revoke basic laws of economics. If there is sufficient demand for a product, there are going to be people more than willing to supply the product. Even in the U.S. where there are paramilitary style drug squads, and over a million people in prison because of drug charges, there has not been any permanent decrease in drug use since the war began. And I hardly imagine that Germany is going to be willing to go as far enforcing a video game ban as the U.S. has gone with it's drug ban, so it will not even be as effective as the U.S. war on drugs.

Ok, for those of you who can read the language:http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/24/24032/1.html [heise.de] I personally find it pretty insightfully, almost as much as the fact that it, together with the boys website was immediately taken off the net. It just goes to show, how repressive the German state is, and how such a terrible incident is used as justification to make laws designed to take away my freedom as a gamer and my responsibility as a sane/more-or-less-moral person in general.

These are just the usual suspects. Every country has them, mine isn't free of them, sorry.The good news is that aside from the parts of the media already well known for being less than acurate and very sensationalist in everything, the media is offering a slightly more interesting picture this time.

The one thing that bothers me, however, is that apparently the police have shut down his website, where the young man had published his diaries and other texts, stuff that would give a much clearer picture as to

My guess is that every normal person played some sort of war game with one's peers during childhood, or any other game involving "shooting" and "killing" (Lil' Crimstoppers anyone ?). If you go into a toy store, it seems like half of the toys are toy weapons or are related to military. This has been true for ages, and has not been a problem.
When Crime and Punishment came out, it caused quite a disturbance in society. If you think of it, this book might have much a stronger effect than any videogame. Yet i

Hence, publishers releasing games in the european market will edit the blood out for the entire multilingual release, since the rule of the smallest common denominator (germany's hemophobia) applies. For games going to europe: Any images of blood are to be logged as critical bugs.Now, in the U.S., however, the same rule applies to nipples (which reminds me, I'm undercafeinated).

So I'm really not surprised that they're taking another step down the slippery slope of censoring games. It's not going to DO anything about real violence, like hiding nipples is not going to stop the desire for nipples, but it's not the actions of a sane mindset, it's a hysterical show, starring a straw man.After all, the waltz will cause wanton sexuality, I mean, rock and roll is the devil's music, no wait, I meant comic books will turn kids into axe murderers... er, no, that's pot: smoking reefers turns kids into violent psychos. Yeah... games are bad, mmm-kay?

(Translator's note: This translation is for the benefit of all who don't know enough German. It sends a chill through my bones. I don't see much how videogames could have spurred him on, he seems to have had plenty of momentum of his own...pretty much a repeat of columbine if you ask me.)

When you know, that you can't be happy anymore in your life, and the reasons for this accumulate from day to day, then there remains nothing less than to disappear from this life. And therefore have I decided. There are probably people who would have gone on, would have thought "It'll be ok", but it won't.

I am told that I have to go to school, in order to learn for my life, in order later to live a good life. But what will get you the fattest car, the biggest house, the most beautiful woman, if it's all just shit in the end. If your wife begins to hate you, when your car uses petrol that you can't pay, and when you have nobody that will visit you in your shit house!

The only thing that I really learned in school was that I am a loser. For the first years at the GSS (school?) that was true, I fell for consumerism, and afterwards strived to make friends, people who don't see you as a person, but as a status symbol.But then I woke up! I recognised that the world as I saw it didn't exist, that it was an illusion, that mainly is produced by the media. I noticed more and more what kind of world I lived in. A world where money rules everything, at least in the school it was only about that. You had to have the newest mobile, the newest clothes, and the right "friends". If you don't have those you're not worth noticing. And I call these people Jocks. Jocks are all, who on the basis of expensive clothes or pretty girls, stand above others. I detest these people, no, I detest people.

I discovered when I was 18 that you can only be happy, when you follow the crowd, watch out for the society. But I couldn't and wouldn't. I'm free! Nobody is allowed to enter my life, and he who does must bear the consequences! No politician has the right to pass laws, that forbid me things. No bull [policeman?] has the right to take my guns away from me, at least not while he's wearing them at his own belt.

Why all this? Why must I work? So that I'm crippled and at 65 can go into retirement and snuff it 5 years later? Why should I bother to reach something, when it's all shit in the end because I will croak sooner or later?

I can build a house, have children and I don't know what else. But why? The house will be torn down sometime, and the kids will also die. Pray tell, what kind of meaning does life then have? None! So everyone has to give his life a meaning, and that I will not do in that I crawl around some overpaid manager's ass or to piss around with Fascists who want to tell me that we live in a popular government.No, there is another possibility to give my life meaning, and this I will not waste like all others before! Maybe I could have lived my life completely differently. But society has no place for individualists. I mean real individualists, that think by themselves, and not the "I wear a riveted armband and am alternative" idiots!

You all started this revenge, not me. My actions are a result of your world, a world that won't let me be how I am. You all made fun of me, the same way I did with you, only I had a completely different sense of humour!

From 1994 to 2003/2004 it was also my endeavour to make friends, have fun. When I came to the GSS in 1988, it started with the status symbols, clothing, friends, mobiles etc.. Then I woke up. I realised that my life long I was the goon for others, and that they made fun of me. And I swore revenge!

This revenge will be carried out so brutally and ruthlessly, that your blood will freeze in your arteries. Before I go, I will come down on you like a ton of bricks, so that I won't be forgotten! I want you all to recognise, that nobody has the right to invade in someone else's life under a fantastical disguise made of law and religion!

I'd be very interested to see just how many other people his age feel similar with society the way it is today.

I can absoloutely understand a lot of what he has said there, quite a bit of it -I don't condone his actions but understand his frustrations with life / people and the world in general - most definately (at least most of his points)

This is only going to continue to happen with society how it is, people will snap - this will keep happening, banning games will prove nothing.

"I'd be very interested to see just how many other people his age feel similar with society the way it is today."

Probably more than people would like to think... considering all of my close friends and I throughout high school said nearly exactly the same things at one time or another, and well, I guess I can't say all too much more than that, or anything;)

I think we can all agree here that the parents are at least partially at fault. I remember being younger growing up in Europe, playing army games all the time. Running around with wooden sticks pretending they're machine guns and gunning each other down, with guns, grenades (fake ones) you name it..

I would personally have a hard time killing a fly, so I really don't see how this whole "video games are bad" can be applied to the general population, there MUST be another variable at play here.

The farwell letter tends to strong suicidal causes (depression probably) with a good mix of schizophrenia in, and a high aggression level towards society which often can be found in teenagers who are in a phase of finding themselves.
The thing which probably has pushed him over the edge violence wise is probably this mix.
Nothing could have prevented that I assume and nothing probably can be blamed.

Next time the parents should tell the kid to play a game like, "Tales of the Abyss", that preaches killing is bad, before letting the kid step into the arena.:P
Honostly that's what most games are missing is the lack of understanding, that even on a real battlefield, no one likes to kill... or die for that matter.

Please read his goodbye letter...the reason is obvious: society puts more and more people in the social gutter. Society only has time for the rich and famous...the others are material for the meat grinder...it is not video games or bad parents that lead to this type of action!

Christian democrats are historically the conservativ parties of many western european countries.

The name partially stems from the close ties those parties had to the local churches and monarchs 100-150 years ago (nowasays the ties are way more loose and a political non influence clause of the churches into politics has been mandatory for decades)
and partially stems from the fact that early social democratic and communist movements were outspokenly atheistic.

You should be even more shocked, as they are currently ruling this country.
The christian part of the name only implies the christian values of tolerance, peace etc. (basically the new testament).
The CDU is open to people of all faiths, to gays, transsexuals and lesbians.

Lots of European countries have "Christian Something" parties. They are Christian by name only. Anyone can join, and they don't particularly defend Christian ideals, even though they tend to be right-wing parties (by European standards). The name is a historic artefact, not a religious fact.