The Return Of Wooden Bullets

“The Department of Defense is now looking at ways to clean up after itself, putting out the call for the development of biodegradable ammunition loaded with seeds that sprout plants after being discharged.”

See US military seeks biodegradable bullets that sprout plantsIn the last desperate days of WWII, my father encountered wooden bullets fired by German forces in his direction. Of course such bullets lacked range or accuracy but they would be dangerous at close range. OTOH, they convinced “our guys” that we were winning and that the end was near. It was. A few months later he was married and at home causing the “baby boom”…

Well, USA doesn’t intend wooden bullets to make a comeback in use against hostile forces, but just to make firing ranges less of a bio-hazard. That’s good. I shoot at a range where most bullets end up in a berm filled with lead, copper, zinc, steel and other stuff that while natural is not normally found in high concentrations near the surface of Earth. Living things find these metals toxic. Keeping them concentrated on ranges at least minimizes the risk to the rest of the environment but it’s just delaying the problem as rain can move some of the material into aquifers or wind and erosion can spread it over the surface. Heaven only knows what various critters will do with the stuff.

It’s a cute idea to have expended rounds deposit seeds but it could be beneficial not in berms but large areas where war-games and such are carried out. There, tracked vehicles may erode flora on the surface and explosions can kill grass, weeds, trees and shrubs so rejuvenation is a good idea. Too bad we can’t make rounds that would convert murdering bastards into kind, loving people.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.

Acid rain falling on tyndall stone will form some MgSO4 naturally everywhere on Earth.
tyndall stone is just a brand name/name for a stone that is Dolomite CaMg(CO3)2 mixed with Limestone CaCO3.http://biogas.ifas.ufl.edu/Publs/BioresourTechnol-99%288%293036-2008.pdf
So that does not produce as much free MgS04 as one would think as Limestone normally ends up converting MgSO4 then and coating what is produced so making it safe for earthworms.

You have stated one of the problems. Its not just you applying MgSO4. There is so much coming from nature based on how much Acid rain you get and what your soil mix is. So you land might have A value of Dolomite and you use y amount of MgSO4 and the person down the road has B value of Dolomite that is more and if they apply y amount of MgS04 they over dose it. Now A and B value might be 1 foot apart.

Note I said Dolomite the way to prevent Dolomite making free form of MgSO4 is to apply Dolomite 50/50 with limestone only required in areas with excessive acid rain or people stupidly applying MgSO4. Yes applying limestone that way also means when you apply MgSO4 it ends up bound up before penetrating to roots. Or your soil might be naturally high in limestone. Yes applying MgSO4 is consuming up the limestone in the soil as well.

Its natural for earthworms to find large amounts Dolomite with small amounts of MgS04 Epsom salts. Yes the presence of Limestone is a part antidote to the nasty effects of MgS04 on earthworms also means when you put MgS04 on high limestone soils your plants don’t get any.

When I say small amounts of MgS04 I am not talking 1 percent solution I have talking 0.0001 of a percent.

Earthworms thrive even in my yucky soil.
This is not 100 true. Soil we think is bad Earthworms don’t mind but they do have things they avoid. Anyone who has had composting worms would have notice that you can put particular items in with them that they don’t eat ever. Earthworms can be just as picky. Now if MgSO4 and other things Earthworms don’t like get too high in an area Earthworms will avoid that area or die in that area either way is the result is the same the area compacts and if it compacts enough even if the MgSO4 rate drops it can be too hard for the earthworms and other soil creatures to come back. So now you have to plough the soil disturbing the soil more and the soil is harder to plough.

You can drink Epsom Salt if the concentration isn’t too high.
Thing to remember it like you go out and eat someone get a upset stomach you don’t go back there in a hurry. Earthworms are no different. So it does not even have to be toxic fatal level to start causing problem.

The big reason against directly applying MgSO4 on ground is how unpredictable the ground value is. Now apply MgSO4 into like manure is a lot more predictable. If the manure rate of MgSO4 is under what earthworms hate mixing it into ground will bring the ground value back in the direction you want if it is too high.

I will explain how this gets evil and it applies to your clay soils.

Plant is showing Mg deficiency as a fool you apply MgSO4 to soil over and over again because the plant is barely improving. What you have not noticed clay has compacted around the roots. So the MgSO4 never makes to the roots of the plant. But the clay has now got heavily loaded in MgSO4 and the earthworms are not going to break that up now. So now you go from a plant with Mg deficiency to a plant also suffering from water deficiency as the clay has picked up other things that are water repelling and this would not have happened if you had correctly applied MgSO4 to leaves or used CaMg(CO3)2 on ground and had the earthworms go about their normal job of breaking up the soil.

Dolomite CaMg(CO3)2 is a clay breaker this will work is way though clay and will not repel Earthworms unless it reacts with a acid issue in soil. Even in sandy soils there is a reason to use Dolomite as water will not wash it out of sandy soils as faster as MgSO4 will so your plants get what you are applying.

Of course a high limestone soil MgSO4 does not work at all. Dolomite on soil other than a slight issue with acid rain(as long as you don’t live where that is a major problem you can use it straight) can be got to the plant roots no matter the soil type. Dolomite on leaves absolutely does not work. One of the fun facts roots can extract the Ca and the Mg out of dolomite but leaves cannot extract any part of Dolomite. So dolomite on plant leaves just blocks the leaves. So MgSO4 is perfect on leaves and dolomite is for ground. Other MgSO4 has places where you want it binding properties to prevent run off of CaCO3 in liquid waste from animal waste and the like .

There are so many ways MgSO4 just does not work dependably on ground to give responses you are expecting. Anywhere from Plant getting none due to it chemically reacting and getting bound up where the roots are not to Earthworms and other soil creatures staying away from where you sprayed it. MgSO4 is just not a dependable way to give plants in ground Mg other than spraying it on leaves.

oiaohm wrote, “This the problem the amount of Mg plants need if given in MgSO4 instead of CaMg(CO3)2 you will exceed in lots of areas what worms and other soil creatures will put up with.”

This is utter nonsense. Acid rain falling on tyndall stone will form some MgSO4 naturally everywhere on Earth. Earthworms thrive even in my yucky soil. Numbers matter. You can drink Epsom Salt if the concentration isn’t too high. It’s not that toxic.

Again, you are missing the point that one does not dump a lot of stuff on the ground, just enough to invigorate the plants.
This the problem the amount of Mg plants need if given in MgSO4 instead of CaMg(CO3)2 you will exceed in lots of areas what worms and other soil creatures will put up with.

You can kill plants with any kind of fertilizer if you put a lot in one place.
In fact not true. CaMg(CO3)2 can be 50/50 mixed into the soil and not kill the plants or upset soil creatures. If what the fertiliser is made from is safe that the plants can take what they need and leave what they don’t you can grow plants in 100 percent fertiliser.

Manure is not 100 percent safe contains a lot of different chemicals that can cause overdoes. Mixed with the right things it can be made reasonably safe.

Yes different Manures should be mixed with MgSO4 to cause chemical reactions to neutralise free CaCO3 in Manures before application to soil.

On the farm, we had manure piles which were devoid of plants but we mixed the decayed manure in our gardens and they were very productive.

The reality is the area around the manure piles was devoid of plants because you were not treating the manure properly. This means CaCO3 and other chemicals like it were being washed away and delivered in overdoes rates instead of being crystallised in the soil for the plants to take on demand.

So the reality is your gardens were not as productive as they should have been.

This is the thing MgSO4 is apply on leaves or apply in you manure/organic matter to to bind. Not something to apply as Epsom salts directly to soil.

This is the thing used the right way MgSO4 is a really good things. Decayed manure the amount of plant supporting elements lost in the decaying process is directly linked to if you added the right additives from the start to stabilise the plant supporting elements in slow release fertiliser form and by doing this manure piles don’t cause dead patches and dead patches is a sign of miss management as well as water way harm if amount is large enough. By the time you get to applying Decayed manure to the soil adding MgSO4 then is kind of very late to the party and harmful.

So there are correct ways to use Epsom salts and that does not include applying it directly to the ground. Yes Epson salts inside a compost bin with the right types of plants decaying changes it chemical form and produces a slow release fertiliser forms as well. Yes slow release forms don’t wash out with general rainfall/watering as well.

Robert a lot who have not done the study who have only field experience are like you who think a lot of wrong things like that too much fertiliser is harmful. Unstable fertilisers are can be harmful they can leach into water ways on top plants can get overdoes from them at times even with very small values. Stable complete fertilisers you can grow plants in 100 percent concentrations of those as plants roots can take what they need a leave what they don’t. Most natural sources will be the unstable forms needing to be mixed with different things to produce the stable forms. Fertilisers are not all the same some behaviours like dead patches caused by fertilisers are incorrectly ignored when that is saying that fertiliser need to be reacted/mixed with something before application to make it stable so plants can take only what the need not have excess amount forced into them.

oiaohm wrote, “The issue is unused MgSO4 remains in the soil for quite some time. So its a accumulative problem. So every time you put a fertiliser on soil with MgS04 a percentage is not used this builds up”.

Again, you are missing the point that one does not dump a lot of stuff on the ground, just enough to invigorate the plants. The stuff that is needed a lot is the N,P,K,S stuff that is removed in crops. The magnesium is just a trace element not found enough in some soils. You can kill plants with any kind of fertilizer if you put a lot in one place. On the farm, we had manure piles which were devoid of plants but we mixed the decayed manure in our gardens and they were very productive. It’s a matter of concentration.

You’re a pain, oiaohm. MgSO4 is not toxic at the levels used in fertilizer.
Robert Pogson there are long term CSIRO, Japan and Israel and other studies that disagree with this. Because its not a single application causing the disaster.

It might be a few percent of the fertilizer and a few parts per million down in the soil.
The issue is unused MgSO4 remains in the soil for quite some time. So its a accumulative problem. So every time you put a fertiliser on soil with MgS04 a percentage is not used this builds up.

Using too much magnesium sulfate can cause serious, life-threatening side effects.
Basically the same thing applies to earthworms as applies to humans. So even if you don’t kill the earthworms with MgSO4 but only make them sick they still don’t remain in the area to prevent soil compaction and do other good things worms do.

Its not only earthworms that have the adverse reaction to MgSO4. Its fairly much using a chemical that says keep away to the natural creatures that live in soil and maintain soil structure. Also the ratio in the liquid fertilizer will be taking in at that strength by the worms + what ever is left in the soil from the prior applications you applied + natural in soil reactions. So is very hard with MgSO4 to predict when you will overdoes it. This is why the current recommendations with MgSO4 is leaves only. Concentration matters and the variates earthworms and other natural soil creatures tolerances to MgSO4 differ from area to area as well.

The oceans are full of it.
This is true CSIRO come aware of it when they were doing experiments in using salt water to grow crops on what had to be removed and attempted ground based farming with it. Yes Israel looked into is for the same reason. If MgSO4 was really good for plants and you were removing it from oceans water then re-adding it would be good only to watch the soil in the experiment compact.

It’s frequently an additive in beer and tofu, you know where bacteria and yeasts have fun.
It works two ways in beer and tofu one is alter water conditions. Those use selected bacteria and yeasts with a tolerance to MgSO4. So MgSO4 and other brewing salts reduce the risk of competition from other bacteria and yeast that might be around naturally that have sneaked into the mix. Are the bacteria and yeasts in natural soil as tolerant to MgSO4 as those in beer and tofu the answer is no were near as tolerant.

Tolerance and Concentration are the two critical factors. Problem is there are particular chemicals that are not recommend for soil application because it too hard to work out when you have cross over the tolerance of your local conditions and triggered soil compaction and reduced nutrient availability events to start happening. MgSO4 is one of those items. Of course its like a lot of chemicals looks good for plants at first until you get large area crop failure or increasing costs to maintain yield because of it long term effects.

oiaohm wrote, “Magnesium sulfate kills the bacteria a lot of earthworms need to digest stuff so you have killed your earthworms. Potted plants no earth worms. Now killing bacteria/fungi on leaves of plant is good and the leaves of plants take up the Magnesium the sulfate does not harm your earthworms without the Magnesium.”

You’re a pain, oiaohm. MgSO4 is not toxic at the levels used in fertilizer. It might be a few percent of the fertilizer and a few parts per million down in the soil. Here, people soak their feet in strong solutions of the salt. The oceans are full of it. Concentration matters. It’s frequently an additive in beer and tofu, you know where bacteria and yeasts have fun. It’s also taken internally as a laxative.

When I was a young man I lived alone in an apartment. I had a few plants in pots. I made up a liquid fertilizer and one component was Epsom salt. It worked fine.

Robert Pogson this is a trap that gets people all the time. In a pot plant using Epson salt on soil is not a major problem most of the time.

Magnesium sulfate is the chemical of Epson salt. The issue is the sulfate part makes the magnesium work to kill bacteria and fungi this only so bad for a pot plant. I said ground particular not mean soil in pots. In ground you have earthworms of some form that resist soil compaction. Yes Magnesium sulfate kills the bacteria a lot of earthworms need to digest stuff so you have killed your earthworms. Potted plants no earth worms. Now killing bacteria/fungi on leaves of plant is good and the leaves of plants take up the Magnesium the sulfate does not harm your earthworms without the Magnesium.

Dolomite that is CaMg(CO3)2 is not harmful to earthworks yet plants can get the Magnesium and Calcium they want from it while keeping the Magnesium not reacted with the sulphate in the soil.

This is why good Epson salt and dolomite example why the chemical form and where its being used is critical. Of course at first killing earthworms does not appear a major problem but when the soil compacts and you have to reverse it then it a major problem. Some of the early farming disasters were caused by Epson salts because it works great on pots but totally does not work long term in open ground.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule62
dougman so another point without required research so still batting zero. The Maple leaf logo on riffle is technically illegal by UN rules of war because its a flag and that is illegal usage of a flag that you are not the army/police for on a weapon. Only a Canada mil or police officer by UN rules could use a weapon branded that way. But the Molon Labe makes the weapon illegal for the Canada mil or police officer to use. Just because something on youtube or media does not mean they have it absolutely right.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molon_labe
Yes that slogan is a branding of 2 particular Greek military divisions as ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ. But United States Special Operations Command Central (SOCCENT) has Molon Labe as their motto and on their gear.

A few of those guns were blocked by Australian customs for UN rule infringements due to the Molon Labe and Maple Leaf marking. The non branded gun can be import by those with legal license and Australian customs would let the infringing weapon in after the infringing marking had been ground off. So that weapon does not just have issues in Canada. Australia is not the only country to block that weapon at customs. Its the same as trying to bring in counterfeit product that is made by a company that does not have the right to use the logo. Yes the weapon maker has used logos they have no right to.

Really this is sad the weapon maker had not read the UN rules or they would have never done a Maple Leaf with Molon Labe as that is a combination that should not legally exist by UN rules. Maple leaf could still be used with the with one of the marking denoting not military issue(they did not do this). Molon Labe is a lot harder as greek and english text of it is out due to current military usage.

Out of the goof up that can happen with weapons printed features on weapons being a issue is rare because most weapon makers know the UN rules or keep their weapons extremely plain. So this branded stuffed up weapon is quite collectable. Collectors can bring it into Australia as long as it rendered non functional with the branding intact. Yes UN rules you can put anything you like on a gun that does not work so as a wall decoration is legal.

dougman so you complain about me an you have still not managed to put up a single valid point on this thread.

oiaohm wrote, “why should you not put epson salt on ground yet using dolomite on ground is fine.”

When I was a young man I lived alone in an apartment. I had a few plants in pots. I made up a liquid fertilizer and one component was Epsom salt. It worked fine. I grew an Avocado about 8 feet tall over several years. I knew how to make fertilizer but not how to prune a houseplant… I had that plant for years but in one place I accidentally over-watered it and it died. I was young.

dougman sorry I told you that I have worked in citrus part of that is doing botanist course on how to apply additives.

Dougman why should you not put epson salt on ground yet using dolomite on ground is fine. Both are sources of Magnesium for plants?

Manganese is like Magnesium where particular forms are for on leaves of plants and particular forms are for soil and particular forms never use at all on plants. Use the wrong form its harmful or use a correct form the wrong way is harmful.

Besides that, most of the additives used in steel manufacturing are essential for plant growth.
This uneducated comment. When the additive Manganese is in steel and the steel breaks down it produces the wrong chemical form for plant life. Yes particular elements are essential for plant growth but its critical they are in a plant usable and controllable form. If elements are not in correct form they are worthless to the plants or kill plants.

Why I know the issue with steels is why in areas with low iron content and you are after a block of iron to put under a citrus tree you don’t use a steel axe head without knowing what kind of steel it is normally by testing. Yes it very traditional with citrus to use worn out axe heads this way to provide the slow release trace iron the tree needs. So it the very thing you picked on me for doing being citrus picking and working around citrus why I know the relationship between steel and plants very well. Of course you are clueless on the topic and decided to but in.

Yes I do have some botanist back ground also know how to do the test to detect if steel contains the additives that will come toxic as it breaks down.

The 1995 bullet you refereed to was only non toxic to humans they failed to include non toxic to plant life. So it included stuff like Manganese that comes Manganese oxide and repels water so totally not fun for plants. Yes minor reworking of the 1995 bullets with tighter regulations on materials was done in the EU in 2002. Also the 1995 bullet has the trouble causing brass/copper jacket as 1995 was only bullet core replacement the 2002 EU training bullet has a biodegradable plastic jacket.

So the 1995 bullet that you refer to does not pass. 1995 was only good for getting rid of lead. dougman what googled to attempt to win a point and failed to read.
–A low cost molding process will be used to injection mold the core into the metal jacket of the 7.62mm projectile–
This line from the 1995 bit you quoted shows the problem because the copper bullet jacket is still on the bullet. Copper is a plant root killer. You paint copper on the inside of pots you bonsai citrus to prevent the tree becoming root bound by killing the roots when they find way to edge of pot. The copper jacket was not removed from the bullet in the 1995 version. If you had quoted the 2002 EU bullet you would have had a point why is the USA reinventing the wheel instead of using EU bullet tech. Only feature missing from EU bullet tech is seeds and that makes limit sense.

dougman so far you have zero points right on this thread hopefully next post you can get 1 valid point. Or maybe you will be smart enough to leave this thread alone.

dougman wrote, “most of the additives used in steel manufacturing are essential for plant growth”.

That’s true but it’s a matter of concentration. Plants love ~1 part per million of a bunch of stuff but a shell fragment laying on a root could deliver a toxic dose. When I worked in Saudi Arabia, one of our projects was working on Wilson’s Disease, an inability to shed copper. Folks with that disease build up toxic levels and get sick. Plants don’t pee… What comes in dissolved in water stays inside the plant as water evaporates. So, a very low level of some heavy metal over a long period of time can affect the plant adversely. Acidity of soil is a big factor too. Acid soils are much better at dissolving metals than basic ones. That’s one of the reasons most plants like a slightly acidic soil so they can more readily absorb nutrients, including trace amounts of metals. Popular fertilizers like Miracle Grow contain a bunch of trace elements plants need but only in tiny percentages in the concentrate. Folks dilute it with water or broadcast it thinly to apply. The concentration seen by roots is tiny.

dougmanFifi, you are still a dumbass. Steel and Iron is the same damn thing. Steel is actually an iron alloy with a carbon content between .2 and 2.1 percent
Total dumb ass dougman because from environment point of view Steel and Iron are not the same thing..

Steel is a alloy of iron and carbon and at times other additives “manganese (1.65% max), silicon (0.60% max), and copper (0.60% max)” That is on wikipedia for carbon steel.

About time you stop butting in before doing some basic homework dougman. I particular mentioned the common make up of steel and the effects on plants.

Its like stainless steel its got additives that resist rusting its still .2 and 2.1 percent carbon but left in environment it has extra risks at times due to the 10 percent chromium content that in the right soils is a true plant killer.

Steel is a generic term that materials containing iron + carbon can be called but the genetic term does not restrict additives.

Its the additives to steel that are the problem for plants. Iron used in cannon balls and the like is normally iron and carbon and silica. You don’t see plant issues on the historic battle fields were iron cannon balls were used in massive numbers in history but you do see issues where brass/copper/lead/steel bullets have been used.

Iron on the other hand is a element if it not pure its called a alloy of iron or is assigned a name like steel.

Pig iron is carbon, silica and iron. The interesting point about iron the alloys of iron that contain plant killing stuff either are steels or iron–nickel alloys. When it comes to bullets iron nickel alloys are not used any more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupronickel
Yes some forms of Cupronickel were iron coper nickel as bullet jackets but it ended up banned. Because it was nicely toxic as the iron let the coper and nickel go into the human blood stream. UN rules do not allow using bullet mixes that are human toxic quickly so that fairly much bans all the iron-nickel alloys.

If you are going to use biodegradable parts in a bullet you have to do it completely half way can make the bullet more toxic to humans as the historic screw up with cupronickel where they attempted to lower cost by increasing iron content.

dougman basically with usable iron in bullets that don’t break UN rules the versions of iron with plant toxic parts are steels.

Of course I can expect dougman to attempt to post other uninformed comment.

Robert Pogson there are some things that bullets have been made from like iron that excess amount is next to impossible for most plants. You find the best crop of weeds in places where large volumes of scrap iron is left.

Yes we commonly see steel core bullets for armour piercing these days but history there were solid iron core bullets. Steel core and Iron core bullets perform same in projectile mass. So for target shooting if a bullet is Iron or Steel core makes no difference. If you are wanting to go though armour that is a different factor the extra hardness of Steel is helpful for going through the armour but that extra hardness also makes Steel slower to break down.

So a iron core bullet with some replacement to brass for rifling with seeds could be quite a practical round for armed forces to practice with.

Also in steel is type of steel. Plain-carbon steel can be fine if it just iron and carbon or Iron, carbon and silicon both no more harmful to plants than Iron is what basically nothing to most plants. Issue comes Plain-carbon steel with manganese content as this as the steel breaks down this makes manganese oxide that repels water or copper content as copper is a root killer to most plants.

So steel in bullets is basically just be selective on what steel you use if you care about plants. But using steel in bullets can be perfectly acceptable due to how little harm the right types of steel are going to-do. In fact by selecting the area with the right PH value there will be no plants in the area effected by either iron or steel of the right type. Plants from lots of areas you can grow in a soil mix of 50 percent iron or non toxic steel powder with the other 50 percent normal organic matter..

Lead cores replacement that is environmentally friendly and will perform the same for target shooting I don’t know.

Lead, manganese ,Copper and zinc are basically the four big problems for training field. Steel core rounds normally have a brass out of coating so they don’t strip the rifling out the gun. Yes brass copper and zinc two things lots of plants don’t like.

Some European military forces have been using bioplastic from before 2005 and iron powder to make bullets that splatter on hitting solid target for training that have the same flight performance as a iron/steel core bullet with brass outer coating. Its mentioned in Forensic Science: An Introduction to Scientific and Investigative Techniques from 2005. USA is very late to the party using environmentally safe rounds for training.

Fun part is the iron powder and bio plastic in the environmentally safe rounds european military forces have used are like Rock Salt if a human gets shot with it the human body can break it down. No need for doctors to attempt to get every fragment back out . Of course a iron powder+bio plastic round mixing in a few seeds in the production process would not be hard of course this has the downside of reducing the safety if someone gets shot by the round as seeds will can be source of infections.

Really more research need to be done with environmentally safe steel/iron core with environmentally safe bioplastic coated bullets. These could turn out to be as effective human killers/armour breachers as the steel core with brass coating but leaving less harmful waste on the battle field.

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