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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

Originally Posted by bryanzoll

With the presence of Scroll of Fate in the game, would it make more sense to cut back on the amount of Mishra's Factories? Or is it just extra icing on the cake?

Kinda hard to slam Standstills without game action threats in deck and no threats on board. Barely even a strategy to play 4x Vial (Meathooks/Merfolk) and Standstill together, and pretty sure even these all run Muta.

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

Tested out a version of this deck in a league - based somewhat on the mono-blue Narset version (which I don't think is very good) and some good versions. I had Standstill in my first draft but I don't think it's a good way to go. Pretty easily beat both Chalice decks I faced, though. Here's where I am going next:

Scroll of Fate was very impressive as a 3-of. It's a very different plan from Dreadnought (going wide) while still enabling Dreadnought. Very nice. Going to add a 4th.

I think Stratus Dancer is worth testing. Another thing that can be put in from Scroll and have text (besides ditching excess lands or whatever).

Kinda shotgunned it on the sideboard so it's not very finalized.

I learned that Containment Priest does stop Scroll of Fate. Something that was not immediately obvious to me.

If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage

My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.

I am the Legacy metagame:

-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

Yeah you need Illusionary Mask to get past that one. Still, you have Realm so you're seeing the importance of needing to be able to deal with a thing on board (bounce, like Echoing ain't doing a darn thing to CP). It's one of the worst ways to lose SB slots.

Also, you need to run Reality Shift. Fix the problem, also keep murdering Depths.

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

@Fox could you post a list for me to look at? If not your own list for some reason, perhaps the list you would run instead of mine?

If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage

My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.

I am the Legacy metagame:

-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.

SB stuff that would still be in there, as DRS was banned:
-C. Priest x2
-Realm x1
-Disempower x1
-RiP x1
-Torpor Orb x1
------
There's not going to be much carryover from either list to help mono-U b/c you can't play E-Tutor shenanigans and cannot redefine zone of value to top of deck (Mastery). The lesson here would be the importance of the number 2:
-Scroll deals 2 to Reality Shift leftovers (blah, guess I have to specify which Scroll nowadays, Cursed Scroll)
-JVP can shrink Reality Shift leftovers by 2 power
-Dreadnoughts can be played face-down with 2 power -> activate JVP to shrink -> swing 0/2 through Ensnaring Bridge (the text on this card is a mere suggestion) and dome for 10.
-Chalice x=1 is ignored by 2 cmc answers (Mask, Mastery, Reality Shift - this card is offensive and defensive)

This is the kind of kind of mindset you need to brew with when you're not playing the much simpler burn 'em out and blast em down style of UR Dreadstill. Every card has to go in the same direction (towards smashing with 12/12s) while being inter-changable and complimentary - and it has to do all of this while being competitive (that means not murdering yourself with Dreadnought -> Stifle -> into removal/countermagic, and oh I lose.). These two lists simply look at what problems exist in the format and then solve them in ways that all advance making Dreadnoughts. The worst card in either list is Swords to Plowshares, and the only reason it could be justified is that it transmutes Dreadnought into 12 life against Burn or say Tendrils on the stack - so even that acts kinda like a crappy Stifle.

This is more the issue with lists like that mono-U one; there is no finesse. There is no asking things like:
-how does a 12x cantrip pile deal with Narset
-how am I killing through Bridge*
-how am I beating C Priest
*Sure Vision Charm is great, but now you need to cast that through a Chalice on 1 which you have to assume (when making your list) is going to be on board.

Now Scroll of Fate is idiotically powerful, and it effortlessly laughs off Chalice and potentially Counterbalance and the need for picking a spot (instant speed activations), but that doesn't change the fact that Dreadnought -> Stifle is a horrid line of play that really only works vs decks that are too linear to react (prison, aggressive combos, and to a certain extent DnT - particularly under Torpor). The way the mono-U deck is made it's literally trying to make the [usually] worst play as many times as possible. (a quick note: UR Dreadstill does make Dreads like this, but they really wear opponents down to about hellbent and it no longer matters if they kill that Nought b/c Delver or Factory are not eating that removal and you are a Bolt deck)

No matter how many cantrips you have, you can't blow cards that answer a problem directly [i.e. kill spell] while setting you back a card on the whole make a Dreadnought thing. Every single "good" card like Fatal Push you run ends up tanking your ability to win. You don't have the easy answer red has where they can point that Bolt upstairs, dropping needed Dreadnought hits from 2 to 0-1.

So in the mono-U list, I think you just have to go UB, and you're probably not going to be able to play any reliable wraths...so you kinda have to brew around those constraints. Reality Shift "counters" removal while making sure you don't die to Goyf/CP/Lage. A card like Ruthless Ripper murders Goyf too and maybe gives you some reach. Fathom Seer is probably a good place to look for CA (don't know if I'd play Daze with him; you might be able to). Enemy Delver still has to die so like maybe Stratus Dancer as vindicate target Delver in combat works?

At the same time maybe you're thinking you can get away with Dead of Winter, and suddenly Brainstorm + Sultai Emissary ain't looking too bad (though it's nothing compared to sheer terror attacking into this guy with active SDT could generate. Lim-Dul's Vault can do kinda the same thing). Let's continue the idea Emissary, x/1, ain't no way a sane opponent is ever downticking Wrenn on this guy...all of a sudden Lose Hope is looking like a way better card than Preordain. So these are some examples of interactions you're looking to layer - reasonable, forward velocity, sometimes able to correct board states, and you just keep piling them up.

In your deck you have truly massive amounts of Vision Charms; I have to imagine Karn wish for Liquimetal has to be an auto-include. Kills basics, can phase out any problem permanent, can protect Nought/Scroll, I mean you can even save the same Karn from combat/spells with the same trick. Now you're up a card that murders Chalice and turns off Vial - seems kinda neat, randomly shutting down a card that cheats enemy things into play under a Standstill (should you play it). It's not exactly hard to tap Scroll and face-down a Thing in the Ice, declare and attack with a 2/2, flip it face-up ("defender" is a hilarious suggestion) in declare attackers, play any instant and instantly flip it (again really just a suggestion that this card enters with 4 ice counters on it - I mean sure if you think the text on cards really matters) and bounce all their board with a dome for 7. Note that face-down'd TITI [and the mana to un-manifest] also makes it exceedingly easy to blank removal pointed at a Dreadnought, without having to care about actually resolving the spell since TITI flips on cast.

I'm not gonna tune some mono-U (or UB list) since I'm on the UW train for a while b/c Teferi is stupid; but I think there's enough here to just mash up cards that attack and defend, and make sure that side-by-side these Dreadnought helpers all synergize (even without a Dreadnought in hand/in play) and do so in a competitive fashion. The essence of Dreadnought is warping the rules to fit its whims, not to play a normal legacy style with a strategy that can't compete b/c you're not supporting it.

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

Thin Lizzy (Pteramander) is a really bad card - you're gonna be dead before this card [that can't block enemy Delver profitably] can pressure a life total. I know it's not intuitive, but the reason not-UR Dreadnought decks run Delver is to block enemy Delver (dying to that card is actually a huge problem).

We need to step back and realize that no matter how many cantrips you run, you never go up on cards. So while Scroll of Fate is outrageous by itself, you're going to figure out real fast that you're never going to be far off from a very small hand. The effective difference between Scroll in your deck and Words of Wilding is fairly minimal; particularly if your Noughts get hit by Surgical. Once you're playing off the top in a deck that failed to (by construction) pressure life totals, the difference between Scroll and Words of Bears is that Brainstorm makes 2 additional 2/2s.

You've been given this amazing gift of a card, and beyond having 4x Dreadnoughts your list, your deck fails to do anything with it. Take out the Noughts and it's like putting Scroll in any other normal legacy deck.

Just so we're all really clear here, Scroll of Fate manifests a card from your hand, not the top of deck.

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

Originally Posted by Fox

Thin Lizzy (Pteramander) is a really bad card - you're gonna be dead before this card [that can't block enemy Delver profitably] can pressure a life total. I know it's not intuitive, but the reason not-UR Dreadnought decks run Delver is to block enemy Delver (dying to that card is actually a huge problem).

We need to step back and realize that no matter how many cantrips you run, you never go up on cards. So while Scroll of Fate is outrageous by itself, you're going to figure out real fast that you're never going to be far off from a very small hand. The effective difference between Scroll in your deck and Words of Wilding is fairly minimal; particularly if your Noughts get hit by Surgical. Once you're playing off the top in a deck that failed to (by construction) pressure life totals, the difference between Scroll and Words of Bears is that Brainstorm makes 2 additional 2/2s.

You've been given this amazing gift of a card, and beyond having 4x Dreadnoughts your list, your deck fails to do anything with it. Take out the Noughts and it's like putting Scroll in any other normal legacy deck.

Just so we're all really clear here, Scroll of Fate manifests a card from your hand, not the top of deck.

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

Hey Dreadnoughtphiliacs!

Been meaning to chime in here for a looong time, so brace yourselves for a bit of a text avalanche. Avid student/follower of this great forum here. Thanks for sharing all that knowledge, @Rood, @Yan, @Fox & Co.!

So I've been on 12/12's since I got back into MtG right after the DRS banning. Pulled those 'Noughties right out of my janky old Extended-era Dancing Ghoul deck last summer (Dark Ritual --> Buried Alive --> Shallow Grave --> Swing with a hasty big ol' Sutured Ghoul, fun times...), and used mono-blue-to-black-splash Stiflenought configurations to learn the Delver/tempo game from scratch. (why take the easy route with stock meta lists when you can just be-2-for-1-ing yourself and smash Dreadnoughts instead?) To my and my veteran opponents' astonishment, I found these lists to be actually viable, perfectly capable of hanging with the post-DRS meta. Only thing keeping my win rates in check were the obligatory rookie punts, since, you know, Brainstorming, Dazing, or reading ANT & Elves combo lines are fucking hard for a noob.

It only got dicey when Tundras/StPs increasingly took over earlier this year, so for a while I switched to traditional UR Dreadstill (something close to what Rood & Yan have been running). And while it was fun as hell to clown Miracles with factory workers (in what had previously been such an odious MU), I found playing Standstill ... kind of lackluster? Just pushing the play/draw dependence a bit too much?? Perhaps just a tad too too skill-intensive??? I don't know. Sleeving up a blue Legacy deck without Ponders honestly kind of felt like walking barehanded into a swords fight or shooting free throws blindfolded: Sure, it's possible but kinda feels like you're just making it hard on yourself to show off.

Another way of looking at UR Dreadstill vs U(b) Stiflenought is Bolt vs Ponder, or reach vs. a more consistent all-in Dreadnought plan (what Fox likes to call the 1 vs 2-swing plan here). And I gotta say: to me, a 2-turn clock after resolving a 12/12 trampler doesn't seem half bad? I love Tempo Stiflenought as it occupies this perfect sweet spot between fair deck and combo, between Delver and something more akin to Sneak & Show. And it is a full-fledged Delver shell we're talking here, after all; which is also where I begin to disagree w/ Fox: it's not as all-in on the Dreadnought plan as your 2-hits-or-bust theory would have it. You win plenty of games on Delver, Daze, WL/Stifle alone.

Beyond 4 Delvers & 4 Dreadnoughts, my complimentary threats have varied from 1-2 Lazavs with 0-2 Pteramanders (justifying 1-2 otherwise untenable Vision Charms) to 2 TNNs and 1-2 Baby Jaces, or any combination thereof. TNN is great to diversify your modes of attack. And Lazav isn't as busted as some folks thought at first, but as a secondary Dreadnought enabler perfectly reasonable. Dunks on Chalice decks (especially Eldrazi). Attacks for 12 on T3 (i.e. a turn sooner than either T Orb, Ill. Mask or Trickbind). Just presents a different angle of attack: un-Pierceable, but it does fold to StP just the same. The trap with Lazav lies, I think, in trying to force other, less powerful, synergies, like Terry, which indeed proved to be underwhelming. (This was when UR Delver running 3 Terries was winning big events, mind you.)

TL/DR: With Tundra taking a backseat in the current meta, I think UB Stiflenought is back on the menu. (I hear this also applies for Death Shadow, the other fragile UB Delver variant).

Which brings me to the reason I finally signed up for The Source a week ago: our shiny new toy, Scroll of Fate. Much has already been said/written and I'm not gonna repeat it; I'm just glad that veteran folks like Rood agree: card looks absolutely busted, the best thing that's happened to the larger Dreadnought archetype in a long time. And it's not just the raw power level, it's all the nifty new play patterns--Vial-tricks and bluffing 12/12s--that have me all excited.

But as enticing as it is to imagine cheesing real and fake Dreadnoughts into play underneath Standstills: Isn't this just a better fit in the UB/Tempo shell? Getting 3cmc under Standstill does seem like a tall order; I think I'd rather just top-curve into Scroll--an absolute must-counter if there ever was one. Trying to drop a SS after that just seems like classic win-more to me.

In any case, here's my current list. (Note how many fucks we give about a Wrenn here)

Pre-Scroll this list has felt pretty solid, especially with the maxed out counter suite (minus the new Force, since it doesn't protect Stiflenought like F.storm & Misdirection do) while also running 3-4 Thoughtseize. The only "weird cards" I run are really just the Dreadnoughts, Scrolls and Lazav. Untouchable mana base, too.

One of my lingering doubts is this: Are the 2 MD Fatal Push just chicken shit? Should we just skip creature removal altogether since the list of dudes we care about is really super short (Thalia, Cratermaker, Marit, Hogaak, what else, Arcanist? Endbringer??) and it sure is tempting to just throw in that Reality Shift and another cantrip instead. Then again, like Fox was saying about StPs in UW: An early Delver might just kill us dead.

And so as for that flex slot: Right now I'm favoring the singleton Impulse: digs for combo & SB pieces, and gets around Narset & Chalice. Preordain might be technically "correct" but is just so god damn boring.

Alright, I'll leave it here, hoping for some constructive feedback. Exciting times for Dreadnought-slingers. Keep up the good work, guys!

So, DRS and Probe were banned in 2018 - so I went 6-3 at a GP when those cards were legal; so if 2018 was the last time I played Tocatli, then I'm not playing it in 2019. Probe/Therapy, Grixis Delver, Czech Pile - all legal. I don't think you're remembering the sheer amount of discard bullcrap we all had to put up with.

The next card in the *old* version, Jeskai Infiltrator was very importantly blue. It does the Dreadnought thing, and it's unblockable...in a deck with E-Tutor.

Reality Shift is a card you actually can't play without in a mono blue list friend. You see, while you're suggesting awful cards: Snag/Dismember/Psy Blast; you're gonna be real sad when someone makes a Marit Lage. Also, your cards can't make a Dreadnought by hitting your own guys. When miracles goes Snapcaster/Brainstorm on your EoT to set up a Terminus - you just let me know when your removal spells can rip that Terminus into play as a 2/2. Factories block the 2/2s you gave them as 3/3s, I could go on...

Now these were the old cards, and the biggest problem the deck had was too many guys. While it was a fun deck, it wasn't fun to play against Sea -> DRS -> no way to not get Hymn'd next turn. Everything the deck did was to put resources where Czech's braindead Hymn spam couldn't touch it: the top of the deck, hidden behind a non-Pyroblast'able enchantment. When you can tutor cards to a zone of immediate value, b/c the top of deck becomes your hand, you end up with a deliberate plan which in many ways re-creates Sensei's Divining Top (with a lot of pro-Dreadnought asterisks).
------
The rest of the card choices should be pretty explanatory. Nodes kills TNN and/or can kill multiple cards. Azcanta turns into a mana source, but really it's value positive when Standstill can't be. These are important effects to have access to in legacy - especially when you have E-Tutor, and pressure to recoup value. JVP, beyond all the obvious reasons, is explained in prior post. If you're really trying to go all-in on 2-shotting, you can't afford to overlook defensively-slanted creatures that can be Scroll'd in, declared as blockers, face-up for low cost, then exile itself, coming back as a PW. (but yes, you'd have to make sure he's not summoning sick)

While I like the spirit of "I'm gonna make 12/12s and bash em," and you even got an absurd enabler, you still need to look at Ancestral/Rit/Salve/Bolt/Giant Growth and figure out just exactly how you're going to transmute the fact that you have the number 12 on the field into something 4x as potent as one of those cards. We can insert a lot of cards here, but simply an enemy Delver on turn 1 is going to put you down to about 10 life by the time Scroll comes online - you still have to attack them twice, and some of your protective spells will phase away your combat step. While it's great to list of cards that protect Dreadnought, the fact of the matter is that your life total will dictate that all cards in hand will become chump blockers sooner rather than later b/c Dreadnought doesn't have keyword vigilance.

A card like Life's Legacy is quite good at illustrating the amount of power 2-shot Dreadnought lists fail to unlock. You have the perfect enabler in Scroll of Fate: tap and get 2/2 *with priority* -> unmanifest [Dreadnought] *with priority* -> place Life's Legacy on the stack paying additional costs *with priority* -> you better counter this opponent, b/c I'm about to draw 12 and then I'd have more Scrolls, and more cards in hand to actually use them, and it's really easy to do this crap again. So while such a deck has Dreadnoughts, it's never really about them hitting in combat. This example is merely to bluntly illustrate the point that this is how successful Dreadnought decks work [with a metaphor]. Dreadnoughts are tempo reservoirs, but you still need a competitive strategy around them. To be competitive, that surrounding strategy has to both foster Dreadnought machinations, yet also be able to win games without them.

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

@Tobitzki you're absolutely correct that sometimes legacy staples like Delver/Daze/Stifle just win games, but this isn't exactly a reliable strategy (legacy cards I own decks like Blue Moon consistently lose despite playing staples). Unlike other decks, you're not following up with on-board value engines (like Wrenn/Dreadhorde) or a bigger threat like Goyf. Additionally, you don't have a card like DRS doubling your likelihood of having more turn 1 plays/followups to removal, while real Delver decks [real=have Bolt] are still packing Goose/Swiftspear/Hexdrinker. No matter how you cut it, you're taking some turns off - you're still basically taking out a mortgage on Dreadnought's tempo reservoir. The issue that arises in mono-U/UB that, like Death's Shadow, your only way to pay off that 'mortgage' is connecting in combat with your namesake threat. This is a real problem when opponents realize "oh, so all I have to do is play around Daze and then kill that creature and it'll all be okay, got it."

I think your list is fine; it's certainly got a better plan than mono-U. I don't like the lack of CA, but you're pretty free to play Lim-Dul's Vault rather than extra copies of Scroll. Don't ever play Unearth with Thoughtseize, you Seize their dude and Reanimate it. Fatal Push obviously has to go, the card actively hurts you. Your list will do fine, but it won't really be the best at grinding down opponents with forced moves. You probably need to play at least 19 lands. Tasigur is an auto-include, especially since there's no Confidant.

There's a lot I dislike in the SB, but this is mostly player preference. Winter Orb is just wrong though; you need proliferate/Teferi's Realm in those slots. Torpor Orb also needs to be in there (moreso with LDV in maindeck). As a general rule, cheese wins more games; I'd be looking at cards like:
-Surgical (which you have)
-Rite of Undoing (counters Surgical, miles better than Echoing Truth could ever be) - better with Petal builds though since Petal can be declared your target and pay 2 mana (due to delve)
-Dystopia/Plague Engi/Dread of Night
-Hex Parasite - just get em, just find you a Planeswalker/Chalice/Vial and shake 'em down!
-etc...

If UB, I'd be more inclined to drop Delver and use cards like Ruthless Ripper, Thing in the Ice, Fathom Seer, and Karn. Just loop stuff like this and be obnoxious with life-drains, bounces (including their guys with say...your Thoughtseize, the card that flipped TITI and is now a creature kill spell) in response to interaction. If I'm playing Daze in UB, I'm probably also liking the idea of Island, go -> Lotus Field -> Stifle -> respond to anything you do to disrupt this with Daze. Just light these fires, walk away, and watch the world burn. Suddenly cards like Ancient Stirrings and Incubation // Incongruity are beginning to look like exactly what you want to be doing with your life - they're not quite there, but we're seeing how they're all advancing Dreadnought, yet don't need to actually produce one, to build a diffuse set of highly favorable interactions which become competitive.

Dreadnought is an artifact - it's made of gears and oil and everything Phyrexia. It is a homunculus which tells you what your deck too should be made of: seemingly innocuous and disparate pieces all working in harmony as part of the Great Work. When you do this, Dreadnoughts [and all their benefits] are able to live there, never needing to be called upon. Doing everything for Dreadnought is easy, the hard part is also doing nothing for it at the same time.

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

Scroll of Fate is a little bugged on MTGO. It pops up a message in the game log saying "[Player] manifests one of the top two cards of their library with Scroll of Fate" when that is not what it does. Must be mixed up with another card.

The card still functions as intended.

If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage

My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.

I am the Legacy metagame:

-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

Made a 5-0 today. Beat these decks:

Miracles - bye
Burn - Stratus Dancer is a 2-for-1 for me twice in G1. Scroll of Fate let me race pretty quickly once I got them to topdecking. They did have Exquisite Firecrafts main. G2 was pretty easy with a turn 2 Dreadnought.
4C delver - I think I got a little lucky G2. G1 I just made a fast Dreadnought with Daze + FoW backup.
GW Depths-Maverick - Fast dreadnoughts. Wasteland + Stifle took care of Maze of Iths.
Maverick - Won G1 through multiple StP with 2 separate attacks getting through. Lost G2 to missing on lands. Won G3 with tempo Wastelands + Daze after opponent mulled to 5.

Not sure about the Academy Ruins, as it doesn't do anything vs exile effects that are typically played like StP or Council's Judgment.

If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage

My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.

I am the Legacy metagame:

-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

@DNSolver: Congrats on the 5-0!! Couple of questions: How did 4 Vision Charm & 4 Preordain feel? Not too much wheel spinning? I guess Scroll makes the Charms viable on 2 axes: another key artifact to protect, plus no more dead top decks with Scroll in play. 12 Cantrips does seem a little soft to Chalice & Narsel. I really like your list, especially the Stratus Dancers seem brilliant: I literally didn't know that card existed before. Might be the only Dreadnought sidekick for the morph-Vial worth testing: playable even just as a straight up 2/1 flyer for 1U. Again though: Would you insist on the full playset?

@Fox: Man, I love Teferi's Realm. Dropped from my lists at some point, I think, when CB made way for more PWs in Miracles. Wasn't so sure about the Winter Orbs, either. Torpor Orb will stay sidelined until DnT, Goblins and Stoneblade show up again. Going up to 19 lands seems unnecessary: we're the deck that actually taps WLs for mana?

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

@Tobitzki some good scenarios to think about in deck construction are:
-my Dreadnoughts have been Surgical'd, what else does my deck do?
-I couldn't get to 3mana to cast Scroll of Fate, what's my plan?

We can apply this to @DNSolver's use of Stratus Dancer:
-has a card that can hit as hard as Delver + still combos with Scroll of Fate. 3/2 + 2/2s (probably on fog duty) can maybe win a game. Not a great plan, but definitely more likely to succeed than Delver of Secrets b/c face-down/hidden info subgame can still be played with card advantage (flips to counter removal).
-Stratus Dancer oracle text vs hostile Delver: Flying 2/1. Delver player cannot play around this card, they must discard a card from hand, or sacrifice a Delver card to hit you with a Delver. Obviously killing you with a Goyf or Gurmag is still happening, but you're gaining time to topdeck Scroll or find 3rd mana; if you're desperate you can make the [generally-losing] play of cast Dreadnought -> Stifle/VisCharm vs the trigger.

This simple test is how we know playing Pteramander is a horrid idea without ever needing to sleeve it up.

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

Originally Posted by Fox

@Tobitzki some good scenarios to think about in deck construction are:
-my Dreadnoughts have been Surgical'd, what else does my deck do?
-I couldn't get to 3mana to cast Scroll of Fate, what's my plan?

Dude, outside of decks packing 4+ discard spells, I don't think too many folks will be bringing in Surgicals again us. This might be different if were more all-in on the Lazav plan. (tbh, until this is more than a 0%-metashare deck, enough people won't really know what to bring in beyond Decays & artifact hate.) And as long as I'm playing 2-3 Scrolls to top off my curve, the mana really seems fine to me--again: it's unwasteable while happy to utilize WLs for mana if needed.

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

@Tobitzki
Hit by Surgical just makes it easier to visualize. We could also take the list and subtract the Dreadnoughts and see if what is left over is a competitive legacy deck.

When the answer to that is no/not really it means that opponents can pursue gameplans of haphazard blocking (if they lack 3+ toughness creatures); because all they really have to do is make sure kill spells hit Dreadnoughts. Now certainly, their deck can't just die to Scroll impersonating a 2/2 generator [like Gideon] to play optimally...but if they're able to pursue a policy of contesting only face-up Dreadnoughts, you're back to the question asked in the previous paragraph. There's no real parallel in legacy to the face-down subgame, but correctly playing removal against Infect is much the same skill. A good opponent will check-block with cards like Snapcaster, which notably can't be countered by flipping Stratus Dancer. If you're not attacking with a certain face-down dude, your bluffs unravel quite a bit.

Now there are lots of players who lack an understanding of what is truly important in a game, and you can punish that with face-down tactics....but a good player is okay taking incremental losses (like a JTMS on 2 loyalty) when the have a face-down attacker coming after PW and another coming for face. A bad player thinks value matters, blows their removal to save JTMS and get domed for 12. The good player takes the bad beats: -2 life, -1 JTMS - and will only then decide how to make a move (likely with Scroll activation on stack). That timing changes a little bit if they are trying to play around Dancer on board, Dancer being the card entering on Scroll activation, or whether or not they suspect a Vision Charm in hand [in this case waiting till your turn to force you to phase Dreadnought resulting in loss of combat step for card that matters]. Good players can identify when one card matters, and use life as a resource (often over multiple turns) to combat that. This skill is intrinsic to many combo players, but can be learned by those playing braindead value decks who are out of practice.

So we revisit the question: when you don't have Dreadnoughts, what's left over? Is it good enough to corner good players into making bad plays~forced moves? For me this is where mono-U fails the test. The thing that's nice about @DNSolver's list is that Scroll still does something more than produce 2/2s without Dreadnoughts (b/c Stratus Dancer is still using it like a Mishra's Workshop), and also doesn't just die to the abstract turn 1 Delver. Just like your UB list with Delvers in it, winning without a Dreadnought connection is gonna be pretty tough.

Just as easily as the thought experiment where we subtract Dreadnought, we could say that opponent commits all resources to not letting Scroll resolve (+/- Surgical). Do we really think making Dreadnoughts the hard way is gonna work? When it doesn't work, what's left over and is it competitive enough?

Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

@Fox: Man, to me a full-on Delver as plan A2/B feels pretty legit tbh (see above). And as Jonathan Alexander has taught us, 10-11 threats can be enough in an interaction-heavy tempo/stifle shell. But I hear you: the tertiary threat's been a tricky issue for UB. Pre-Scroll, 4 Delvers + 4 DNs + 2-3 TNNs seemed like a decent 1-2-3 punch (I'll bracket the Lazav stuff for now), but then isn't this the beauty of the Scroll? --> turning dead draws (late Dazes, excess lands, discard) into bears on top of sneaking 'Noughty boi into play? i.e. doing double duty as enabler and threat on its own? (aside: LDV is not a serious consideration here. I've liked it in UB DS, though; but here we just can't afford more card disadvantage)

DNSolver's testing makes me wanna try something like 4 Delvers, 4 DNs, 3 Scrolls with 1-2 Dancers & 1-2 Baby Jaces (i.e. still a decent spell count for Delver-flipping) and shave a Spell Pierce or 2; otherwise you can always just park 2 TNNs in the SB in case Tundra and Decay becomes an issue, or just jam a random Angler or Tasigur in there if you're feeling threat-light. (not every single card needs 100% jank synergy with everything else) And btw, it's precisely yr argument of "what do you do aside from 12/12" that makes Fatal Push vs. Reality Shift such an interesting, contingent and basically unsolvable question to me.