Now, you remember econ 101, right? Price isn't determined by cost, although profit is. And the labels aren't entirely evil. They give bands and artists studios to record in, physical media to press their discs, and marketing and distribution, all the while knowing there's a 90-95% chance they will lose money on the deal.

I find it remarkable that there's so much righteous indignation against the recording industry for their clumsy attempts to deal with the problem, and so little worry that an entire generation seems to be growing up thinking its OK to steal if its done with the click of a button against a faceless corporation. It seems to me that somehow the good guys and the bad guys got switched around in the public debate.

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"The basic plot is that Donna Speir and Hope Marie Carlton, the two undercover DEA agent Playboy Playmates from the last movie, are still running around in jungle shorts, cowboy boots and spaghetti strap T-shirts, firing their machine guns at drug smugglers, Filipino communist guerrillas, and corrupt federal agents while their two friends, Lisa London and Miss May 1984 Patty Duffek, lounge around the pool a lot and talk on speaker phones that look like fax machines."-Joe Bob on SAVAGE BEACH

Now, you remember econ 101, right? Price isn't determined by cost, although profit is. And the labels aren't entirely evil. They give bands and artists studios to record in, physical media to press their discs, and marketing and distribution, all the while knowing there's a 90-95% chance they will lose money on the deal.

I find it remarkable that there's so much righteous indignation against the recording industry for their clumsy attempts to deal with the problem, and so little worry that an entire generation seems to be growing up thinking its OK to steal if its done with the click of a button against a faceless corporation. It seems to me that somehow the good guys and the bad guys got switched around in the public debate.

I think it has more to do with the fact that for years, even decades you could record cassettes, movies, albums, 8 tracks etc with no ill, no foul, no sin and now in the digital age all of the sudden it wrong, wrong, wrong. Well why wasn't the industry calling foul on double deck dubbing cassette recorders or VHS dubber? Precedents had been sat.

Not saying they should charge less than people are willing to pay, but to me, the cash value of the intellectual property itself cannot be more than the cost of a CD minus all of the overhead that goes with producing and selling a physical object. And I don't think the terms of the purchase should be any different than if I had bought the physical object. I should be able to pay once to use it in any music player I own in perpetuity. Now, obviously most people are going to think the cost of an album is the cost of an album, and that's fine. I look at the same thing and see a significantly greater profit for the company, while the consumer gets a product hobbled by DRM. It might be sound business practice, but it's also not entirely honest. And personally, I don't think it is sound business practice. I think it encourages stealing while earning little sympathy from the public, and all of the legal action and political lobbying wastes resources that could be better used in adapting themselves, rather than beating everyone else into submission.

Cheeze, I don't think that they're worried about people making duplicate mp3 copies of legally purchased music for their own use. (I know some have said that they are against it, in principle. That's definitely a strategic blunder). With a dual tape deck, you couldn't make hundreds of copies of a track almost instantly and send them to strangers around the world with a few clicks of a button.

Andy, maybe I'm not so outraged about the DRM and lack of portability between machines because it's never occurred to me to shop at itunes. There are DRM free alternatives out there (Amazon, for one). The market already responded to that complaint. But I don't think that the kids who are stealing music thought "oh, I'll pay for it now that the DRM is gone" once Amazon opened its store. They're not stealing music because its overpriced or they don't like the product (which in itself would be no justification). They're stealing it because its easy to do, and because they want stuff without having to work to earn it. I am stunned by how people I meet who are otherwise quite ethical don't think twice about taking music without paying for it. This to me is a much greater social problem than the arrogance of the recording industry: stealing has become acceptable in our society, as long as its done on a small scale. I wish the focus was there instead.

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"The basic plot is that Donna Speir and Hope Marie Carlton, the two undercover DEA agent Playboy Playmates from the last movie, are still running around in jungle shorts, cowboy boots and spaghetti strap T-shirts, firing their machine guns at drug smugglers, Filipino communist guerrillas, and corrupt federal agents while their two friends, Lisa London and Miss May 1984 Patty Duffek, lounge around the pool a lot and talk on speaker phones that look like fax machines."-Joe Bob on SAVAGE BEACH

And I think to get the focus onto the stealing, people need to have sympathy for the victim. As long as the music industry is viewed as greedy and powerful and without sympathy themselves, people aren't going to care. So far, they've been trying to prevent copying with measures that undermine the legal use of material, overcharging, influencing governments to pass some pretty draconian copyright laws, and pointing their lawyers at everybody they can, all the while claiming to be the helpless victim. This approach has made them look like the bad guys.

Yes, people who download for free are, more or less, looking to get something for nothing, and the justification is usually that it doesn't actually cost the company anything. Not true, of course. They would have sold more music otherwise, although I never agreed with their loss estimates that suggest everybody who downloaded would have otherwise bought the same amount of music. That's just as false.

The point is, the recording industry isn't going to win this battle in the end unless they can get more of the public on their side, and that is not going to happen if people continue to get the impression, right or wrong, of a big, greedy corporation that picks on kids and manipulates governments to pass oppressive laws. Stealing from them almost seems like an act of rebellion against tyranny in that light.

The best approach I ever saw to fighting piracy was reflected by a little PSA that the movie industry stuck in with the trailers a few years back. Some unknown stuntman talking about the movies he's worked on, the risks he's taken and how much he cares about his work. No lecture, no whining, just a working guy telling us how unfair it is that people can reap the benefits of his hard work without giving something in return.

A softer approach is the answer. That's all I'm saying. People are always going to find ways to circumvent copyright protection, and there will always be people willing to commit petty crimes if there is little chance of being caught. If the recording industry took a more honest and cooperative approach it would be more difficult to justify.

And if they came halfway, that would also help. By all means, make the music harder to steal. At the same time, make it more attractive to buy. Give people a good deal, and they're going to do a little cost/benefit analysis and come to the conclusion that the money saved is not worth the trouble. And since the music industry is entering a time when they can almost do away with physical media and the associated costs, it might be time to reevaluate how they price their product.

But as long as they keep trying to push people around, right or wrong, they can't win.

Any time I have downloaded a song by any artist (for free), it's only been one song, usually one that came out 20 years ago & I then go and buy whatever album it's off, if I don't already own it. I hate having copied discs, I much prefer to have the real product. Alot of people I've spoke to do the same. Just fileshare mp3's of one or two songs. This whole thing is ludicrous, just another way to get money out of people. They'd have a field day in the town where I live as there is only one record shop, so nearly everyone is rippin' files, copying and sharing I assume.

Right you are, Circus. I think a lot of people would much rather have the real product than a bootleg.

I think back to the 80s, when my friends and I used to put our VCRs together and run off copies of movies we wanted. At the time, video movies were still priced for the rental market, not the private collector. Even the small selection available in stores were pricey. But within a few years, the industry recognized the potential of marketing the tapes directly to the public at affordable prices. From that point on, I collected nothing but store-bought tapes. The quality was better, they were easier to get, they looked better on the shelf, and the selection was growing all the time. I don't think I've copied a copyrighted movie since the early 90s.

Not everybody is after a free lunch. Sometimes it's about the availability of what you want, and how much it's going to cost you to get it.

I think any artist who goes with a record company is being plain stupid these days. Anyone can make their own recordings with a small investment in equipment.

The record industry is being very disingenuous saying they are protecting the artists. The RIAA is routinely sued by artists trying to get the money they are owed. The American recording industry has consistently ripped off the artist they purport to be protecting. They have basically been blackmailing people with these lawsuits and when the courts start turning against them they start lining the pockets of those in congress to do their enforcing for them.

This is all because these idiots can't figure out how to sell music over the internet.

Like Andy said they need to stop pushing their customer base around and maybe people would feel a little guilt about stealing their product.

They should be concentrating on the real bootleggers in Asia and other places that turn out counterfeit products by the truckload. In the mean time don't be asking me to feel sorry for these a***oles.

Did you know that for every blank cassette or video tape you've ever bought that a surcharge is included in the price that goes directly to the RIAA or MPAA. Anyone in the IT field should know what a DAT is . Digital Audio Tape, originally designed to carry audio recordings, but in the US they have been relegated to computer backups. Why you may ask, the record industry got Congress to ban the recorders from being imported.

They should be concentrating on the real bootleggers in Asia and other places that turn out counterfeit products by the truckload. In the mean time don't be asking me to feel sorry for these a***oles.

Who knows how many artists have had their work stolen by these guys. They should be concentrating on the real bootleggers in Asia and other places that turn out counterfeit products by the truckload. In the mean time don't be asking me to feel sorry for these a***oles.

Sorry about the rambling, but I get a little worked up over this (and not because I think people should be able to steal intellectual property).