tradepoint 360 software

We are looking for an ERP CRM software to run our entire business and have looked at Infor, Syspro, Exact, openbravo, Tradepoint360, there is a lot of info on most but I'm looking for users of Tradepoint to get a better feel for capabilities and support they are a smaller company but the software looks good for ROI. No matter whom we go with there seems to be a lot of customization and larger companies seem to charge more, also we want all modules for a complete system because we find part of our customization is close to different modules. 100 employees on at a time, 5 locations, Manufacturing and job shop, distribution and warehousing, onsite service, HR, CRM( we are a customer based business) accounting. Thanks for any input. We might even look at Open sorce software

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Kenny,
Seems like at a high level you have thrown everything and the kitchen sink into the mix "5 locations, Manufacturing and job shop, distribution and warehousing, onsite service, HR, CRM( we are a customer based business) accounting." Based on this you will get two primary types of replies: 1. My system is really good, you should by it. 2. You need to provide more information about your business requirements to get any meaningful help. I fall into the second group, you really do need to provide more information. Yes we can figure out quite a bit from what you said, you need multi-site (but are they separate legal entities, do they have financial and/or operational interdependencies, etc.); you need to control your manufacturing processes (are you a hybrid environment, by job shop to you do custom work that you need to quote, is it large project based, etc.); shipping and logistics is required (do you ship LTL or parcel, is international paperwork required, etc.); af
ter sale service is a piece of the business (is it field only or also depot, do you need help desk support in front of the service, do you have warranties & extended maintenance contracts, etc.); HR is wanted (are you doing applicant tracking, are employee skill sets a part of the manufacturing constraints in planning, are you looking for employee self service, etc.); CRM is core (is this just tracking prospects & customers, are you extending this to cover the complete customer life cycle, are you proactive with marketing campaigns, etc.); accounting (is it only US or international reporting, are consolidations across entities required, is your current reporting package Excel driven, etc.). These are just a few examples of the details you need to be looking at to find the appropriate solution for the business. The other item I find interesting is that for 100 concurrent users you seem to have only one organization on your list that targets an organization this siz
e (they have multiple products geared toward different verticals & size organizations), however this doesn't matter until you define your business needs.
Bill

My take on Open Source after a good deal of research is that open access to code also creates a number of security risks. We have narrowed down our search to Microsoft Dynamics NAV with a plug in specific to our type of manufacturing and Epicor. Also looked at Exact and Syspro. Due to cost concerns, it is highly likely that we will go with a Microsoft partner out of Monterrey, MX because the implementation costs are about 40% less and they have offices in the U.S. Good luck with your search. They have received a number of awards from Microsoft so we feel pretty good about it.

George,
Pretty scary response... Interesting comments on Open Source, interesting decision on Navision (as from the MSFT Dynamics suite, Axapta is better targeted to multi-site, hydred manufacturing), interesting choice of competitors (see you left off many of the major players, Infor, Oracle, etc.), and interesting that you are touting implementation estimates as gospel. Seems like you would do better revisiting your own process instead of offering advise to a company that you have no clue what they do.
Bill

Good thoughts Bill, I am getting pretty tired of hear about all the security risks with "Open Source" software. Either a company has a Secure Environment that the software is going to operate in (whose ever software one chooses) or they don't. The biggest problem in any computing environment is going to be the users opening doors for the Blackhat community. If you are going to lead a software search, you should look inside to prepare to answer as many question as you are going to ask. Take every answer with more than a grain of salt. You can get the system that fits your needs if you can plow through all the sales babble

It is always good to do your research and find the best solution to fit your needs and your budget. Microsoft Nav is a good solution for sure, and it has the bright side of being Msft, so prices are in some way good.

I see that you both ruled out SAP, Oracle, Infor... Have you considered them seriously? Sometimes this companies also have local partners to handle the implementation and their licences cost get reduced.

I think it is something to think about if you are experiencing a vision and you want to grow. If you think that your company is hitting on the sweet spot and that you won't grow much more, then scalability is not going to be an issue.

George,
Not a personal attack. I actually said nothing about you, what I did comment on was the apparent flaws in your process. And discussing both the positives and negatives of a selection process is well within the bounds of this site.
Bill

@ Bill - I simply stated what we had found in our process. Perhaps not everyone here has the extraordinary expertise you seem to have. With that expertise in mind, perhaps you could offer some substantiation to your strongly stated views?

George,
Nice tongue in cheek comment, but no matter. I'm here to share my experiences (and I do have a lot of it). As to the "strongly stated views"; Open Source by and of itself does not constitute a security risk, Axapta IS the "big brother" to Navision (look through this site to find any number of references), none of the four largest software companies by ERP revenue is mentioned as being looked at, and you are quoting a T&E estimate as what an implementation is going to cost. I don't think there is anything "strongly stated" here, just the obvious gaps. With that said, probably not the forum to go back and forth on this as you have already made your decision. Hopefully it works out for you!
Bill

AX (Axapta) is a larger scale solution, we were told. NAV is a better fit for our co. with just 125 employees at present. We have not finalized a solution, but we are in an in depth research process which is why I am a fan of this forum. [Assume that all details of our search were not shared in a few sentence comments here.] Microsoft would be, I think, a major player, though perhaps not one with which you are allied? As I mentioned, Epicor has an interesting proposition as well.
-GE

George, you mention you have 5 locations. Are they all manufacturing locations or do you have just one mfg facility? You also mention 100 employees on at a time. Are you implying 100 concurrent users?

You mention your requirements include high level requirements such as Manufacturing and job shop, distribution and warehousing, onsite service, HR and CRM. Depending upon your specific needs, there may be other ERP alternatives that fit your size and complexity a little better than Syspro, Exact and NAV.

If you don't mind providing more detail regarding your unique and critical requirements, you will get more specific advice.

Ever know any business that deals with Walmart? Anyone will tell
you the best thing that ever happened to some of those companies
is when they started dealing with Walmart. Anyone will also tell
you the worst thing that ever happened to some of those companies
is when they started dealing with Walmart. Msft has some huge
downsides as well, it's a behemoth that's not going to care much
about any individual user. That's true of all huge companies.
But it's also true they have a huge amount or resources. So
let's be even handed and say it's a two edged sword. (and not
forget there are plenty of other vendors who have their own
pluses and minuses)

>so prices are in some way good.

What?? Since when was that a guarantee? Let's not forget the
product wasn't MS's to begin with and the generalities of the
pricing didn't come fro MS. And by the time you price an
industry add-on or two if needed, well look at what was just
quoted on the thread. The pricing was actually quite high.
If the functionality is a good fit, it can be justified.
But if not then it's a huge mistake.

>I see that you both ruled out SAP, Oracle, Infor... Have you
>considered them seriously? Sometimes this companies also have local
>partners to handle the implementation and their licences cost get reduced.

It seems that both had at least looked at it some of those. R3 or
Oracle don't seem to be in any way size appropriate. But you would
hope B1 got a look over. And infor has so many there's probably at
least one close enough for both size and industry that it would have
gotten looked over. But let's face it, even if you've got a real
scalability concern, there are hundreds of good providers out there
that do that quite well. It's usually only during that conversion
from a mid-market lean niche player to the overall large company
single market leader when no software will scale. There is such
a change in culture that the product has to change accordingly.

AX can be scaled very large, but I am aware of many manufacturers smaller than your firm using AX as well. It is my understanding that out of the box, AX is more suitable for manufacturing and multi-site, whereas with NAV you would have to purchase addons to get even close to the same capabilities.

George,
In terms of knowing the Microsoft & Epicor offerings, I have experience with both organizations and know the offerings quite well. In terms of your requirements, I know next to nothing about your organization (or Kenny's) so I can only comment on what is shared. When you say you have 125 employees and Kenny has an organization with 5 locations & 100 concurrent users; it would seem that there is probably a significant difference in size (as well as the complexity associated with multi-site deployments). So yes, one size doesn't fit all; and yes you need to use the business requirements as a litmus test.
Bill

At 10:11 AM 7/7/2010, bcary via erp-select wrote:
> Based on this you will get two primary types of replies:

> The other item I find interesting is that for 100 concurrent users
> you seem to have only one organization on your list that targets an
> organization this size

Both comments very on target as usual.

I would also add a third. This forum is no place to find end users
of a particular system. They just aren't here unless you're really,
really lucky. And even then they're so few as potentially not to
be so representative. Best go to a user group of the software, and
directly to end user companies. (hopefully ones you find yourself
and not just the vendor provided references)

At 11:02 AM 7/7/2010, bcary via erp-select wrote:
>George,
>Not a personal attack. I actually said nothing about you, what I did
>comment on was the apparent flaws in your process. And discussing
>both the positives and negatives of a selection process is well
>within the bounds of this site.
>Bill

Maybe, but I did see George's point about being personal based
on the last comment of making direct suggestions to him.
However, I also believe you're entirely right on about the
process. The comment about open source being less secure is
kind of scary. More scrutiny is actually what makes it safer.
There's the old security by obscurity argument that's been
tossed out a long time ago. Now we do have to be fair about
not being told what all the process was. But on the other
hand George has to understand we can only go on what was
described. And what it looked like was a typical idea that
all systems are the same, and money for the brand name comes
first. Yet in the end it sounds like there was actual mention
of something industry specific, and instead of the cheapest
it sounded like the most expensive system was under consideration.
I agree the other names mentioned were signs something went
wrong viz the everyone's the same idea. But I sure hope it's
a matter of not having the full story. (because I definitely
agree there are lots of doubts on the surface)

George:
I do hope you "research" includes having vendors show how to perform your company's processes with their software. There are other research options but, in my experience, this is the most critical. Visiting similar businesses as yours and seeing how they use the software is second. I would recommend not visiting with the software company's people because they will control access to people. Go with your team and have each counterpart sit together and discuss the implementation process and how they handled the two jobs (i.e., implementation and daily activities). One on one meetings might be more telling than group meetings.

Geoff makes very good points here. What all the members of this forum need to remember is that the new people who ask questions here are going to give us just a peek into their business and their decision process for a new ERP system. I was searching for 2.5 years before I found this group….and I got some very good advice here. I really loved some of the sales people’s pitch. For the most part, I had already discounted the product as not meeting our requirements. And there in lies the truth for all of the members. I can’t fault a person from trying to make a sale, but for the most part…they are just so much noise in this forum.

George,
Not to get into a sales pitch for Open Source and its security, but I find it fitting to state a persona belief. Security is not a state. It is a process. I find that Open Source servers and desktops are less prone to generic attacks. Maybe because they have not been there long enough for hackers or maybe because having open source code, they are easier to examine, determine and manage possible risks.

Lets talk ERP. In our experience at Alliance Technologies we have found that basing our solutions on Open Source then provides us with many options for security. The level of security in the system will be based on client requirements and they all have their advantages and disadvantages. We advise on best practice but the options will include two factor authorizations, Lightweight Directory Access Protocol, SSL based browser to server communications and different levels of data encryption.

For Open Source, the fact that it is easier to integrate with 3rd party solutions means the options are endless. Proprietary solutions will come with their own built in features which a client will have to rely on with all strengths and weaknesses.

I understand that It is an extremely difficult task to choose the right product for your organization given that it is not humanely possible to go through each feature in detail. It may be a good idea to engage a consultant who would pick the right one (hopefully) that suits your organization. However having spent years in selection and implementation of ERP solutions across various industry verticals here are a few suggestions that can help you take a call -

a. Is the product suitable for your line of business or industry vertical or better still micro-vertical?

b. Does the Product have reference customers in a similar industry vertical such as yours? (If so this would ensure less customization since it is already adopted for your industry and availability of domain knowledge in the implementation team which is extremely crucial).

c. Are these customers located in the same geography as yours?(If so - should take care of all statutory requirements of your country / region).

d. Has the product been implemented in a similar industry size such as yours - multiple manufacturing units, branches, warehouses, concurrent users, etc? (Would validate the performance of the product and it's robust architecture).

e. What is the technology platform? Open source or commonly used technology is preferable. Non-standard technology would mean scarce resources with these skills making it difficult to support and implement.

e. What kind of tools are provided for support/ customization - post implementation? Typically most vendors provide reporting tools which may not be sufficient. If adequate tools are available, it may be more economical if you can have in-house person(s) or outsourced third party to support the product. It is always expensive to engage the vendor for customization or support beyond the normal contract.

f. Methodology for support. What are the Support levels & the SLA's provided?

h. Insist on the vendor to keep the source code in an escrow account as part of the contract agreement. This would mitigate your isk to some extent should the company go bust or is merged / acquired by a larger fish.

No matter which vertical you belong to, no matter which product you choose - you will have to go through the process of extensive customization.

Everything comes down to the point - how flexible is the architecture - to seamlessly integrate 3rd party tools or new extension of work. Your business is not as complex as Boeing or Ministry of Health or any other: so an open source should (after customization) do very good for your organization.

It will come down on the Architect/Consultant's approach or the current technology available on which the product is based. You will have to find (or be lucky) a person who is not just architect/consultant but an excellent programmer himself. All the procedures, guidelines, best practices are well documented and known. A right balance will have to be found.

Hi Kenny,
I know you've already looked at a number of ERP CRM solutions but if you want an excellent one then you'll want to check out Pivotal CRM SMB (less than 40 users). What Pivotal has done to make the product extremely competitive is offer Pivotal CRM for the small business (SMB) players by offering a rental or SaaS plan. Their standard perpetual pricing for SMB market is also aimed at the small budget SMB budget customers have making it difficult to beat!

So if you're looking at a leading CRM solution (per Gartner and customers) at a best price for a great ROI. Pivotal is a CDC Software company product sold by resellers and although I'm not a reseller we do use the product. We are new to it, so much so as I can say I've not even installed the iphone app that comes with it.

Pivotal is built on the Sharepoint platform and hence quite extendable easily and quickly. IF you're a Sharepoint person then you know what I mean. I'd be happy to discuss more with you just give me a ring at 678-471-7731. Steve

At 04:29 AM 7/11/2010, Open_Source_ERP_Consultant via erp-select wrote:
>No matter which vertical you belong to, no matter which product you
>choose - you will have to go through the process of extensive customization.

I disagree. (and so do our customers) The key is the word "extensive".
If there's extensive customization, then it's the wrong product.

>Everything comes down to the point - how flexible is the
>architecture - to seamlessly integrate 3rd party tools or new
>extension of work. Your business is not as complex as Boeing or
>Ministry of Health or any other: so an open source should (after
>customization) do very good for your organization.

I disagree again. It's just like the "no matter which product you choose"
again. Whether it's open source or not has nothing to do with how easy
it is to customize. Or how flexible it is. There are extremely flexible
proprietary systems. There are excessively rigid open source systems.
Ease of customization and need of customization is just not about the
license model.

The whole point of advocating for open source is about its openness towards accessibility to core: which is never available for commercial products. With this feature, we are NOT vendor locked, that is, only specific vendor can provide plug-in for 3rd party tools, or any other feature set required; every time we need to automate or improve reporting mechanism for example, we will need either vendors to do for us, or buy expensive licensing. TCO of commercial software, for a SMB, is much higher than open source.

Some organizations (either they are SMB or large corporates) follow best practices, and some follow standards. These may not complement each other all the time.

>The whole point of advocating for open source is about its openness
>towards accessibility to core: which is never available for
>commercial products.

Just not true. There are many systems that provide full source code
including "core". And given today's database systems you'd be very
hard pressed to find one that can't be accessed via any 3rd party
reporting tool you'd like even if the vendor never even heard of
the tool.

TCO varies far more based on the particular product.

If there's any spot that may save companies money by Open Source
it's that the customizations get distributed to everyone.
You can put your mod back in the real product. That's what
the Open is.

Microsoft ERP DOES allow CODE access to their clients for development purposes. That has figured into our search criteria. Open Source is not something our company would choose for security reasons, among other things.

The immediate example that comes to mind about the secure and non-secure issues of open source is Linux/Unix. Even though they are open source, their security, and stability has been much much outstanding than that of Microsoft, for example.

This notion is just myth, created by MS lovers, who can't stand/answer to the achievements of open source.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point. Usually when someone discusses a point that makes a statement, they do so by showing examples of how a product conforms to those conventions. You only mention the product. What am I missing?

At 04:28 PM 7/15/2010, Mike Roman via erp-select wrote:
>I'm sorry, I don't understand your point. Usually when someone
>discusses a point that makes a statement, they do so by showing
>examples of how a product conforms to those conventions. You only
>mention the product. What am I missing?

I'm not sure Mike, I think his point was very clear. Linux/Unix
is open source and yet it's more stable and secure than proprietary
OS's. That's an example that contradicts the previous assessment
that open source means a security risk.

When it comes to security, actually *only* encryption that is
open source is ever trusted. The whole cryptography community
insists they've tried to break it a billion times and failed
before it's ever considered safe. It's that public scrutiny
that actually proves it's safety instead of relying on
a false sense of safety by obscurity. It's a very standard
security convention.

At 05:37 AM 7/15/2010, Open_Source_ERP_Consultant via erp-select wrote:
>Which commercial product(s) give access to core, without having to
>pay large sum of amount?

Multiple infor products do, I believe both Axis and DTR in
Consona's range. Enterprise 21. We do. It comes with
QAD support. Those are just what I recall off the top of
my head. The list is actually quite extensive. But there's
a big difference. The code is all "not for re-sale".

There is also another group of products that do have a charge,
but it's still reasonable. And certainly another draconian
group that will never ever give out a line of code. Plus
some of the really big greedy SOB's that want to soak their
client base dry with a huge source code charge.