By conjuring a free spirit of any force (the lower the easier), or by taking the Ally Conjuration metamagic (and spending a whopping 8 karma and 500 ), you can create/conjure an inhabitation spirit (preferably with Elemental Aura) and put it in a weapon. That weapon now is treated as Dual Natured, being able to be used against spirits and projecting mages more effectively (good for the group's Street Sam).

Now, since the spirit itself isn't making the attack, the rules become a little interesting at this point. If the spirit made the attack, the weapon would gain a +4 DV and all damage would become elemental in nature. If the weapon is attacked, the attacker has to save vs. a DV equal to the spirit's force (elemental damage as well). By a strict reading of the rules, the weapon would in fact gain no damage bonus; it would simply allow mundanes to attack spirits/manifested/astral forms and ignore their ItNW.

(Disclaimer!: House Rule Ahead!) I believe that if the spirit so inhabiting had the Energy Aura power, a safe, non-game-breaking compromise would be to allow the spirit's force to be added onto the weapon damage (Elemental effects as normal). This, however, is not needed. (/House Rule)

Theorhetically, you could simulate a lightsaber (or like weapon) under similar conditions. Inhabitation spirit with Elemental Aura (Any, Light would be fitting) and Natural Weapon inhabiting a metallic cylinder/sword hilt. The spirit manifests (not like astral manifestation, more like Spirit Mask) its Natural Weapon as a beam of energy, and whammo!

This would also be able to simulate various intelligent weapons throughout myth. The spirit can only talk through the weapon (to whomever is wielding the blade), ect.

The same technique can be used to gain the use of certain powers under certain situations (and to simulate items of significant power as seen in lore and myth), simply by causing an inhabitation spirit with certain powers to inhabit various objects. To make the deal more palatable for some casters, you could promise the freedom of the spirit after a number of tasks have been completed (either the favors owed by the Binding test, or a new number after forcing the spirit to inhabit the object).

Example: Bob, the wise-cracking skull in the Dresden files can be best surmised as an Inhabitation Guidance spirit of force 8+ taking residence in a human skull.

The above concepts are best implemented by mystic adepts; summoning, binding, and "enchanting" their own weapons and equipment.

2) Free Spirits:

This section is mainly for a discussion of free spirit PCs. Through my reading of free spirit rules in Runner's Companion, it would appear the game designers have something against the use of free spirit PCs.

The average 400 BP free spirit PC would be able to replicate roughly a force 2.5 spirit (meaning he could have all the stats of a force 2 spirit, with slightly higher force and some additional skills/abilities), whereas Street Magic tells us that free spirits of such, /ahem, delicate nature are very rare (from a bound - to - free status: most bound spirits that become free are F6+).

Not only that, but the power selection seems more like punishment than an option list. A standard bound spirit going free retains all their powers, and gains more depending on their new Edge, as opposed to free spirit PCs gaining "Spirit Points" (similar to adept's power points) equal to their Edge, and the average power costs 1.6 (rounded up).

I guess the "power" available from playing a free spirit helps mitigate the hate directed towards them, but honestly, if you've only got ~11 boxes in either of your condition monitors, you've got to expect to get disrupted almost every 'run, unless you go for the Concealment power and hope you aren't even seen. On the bright side, you're almost impossible to permanently banish (excpt by vengeful GMs except by vengeful corp mages), so you'll most likely be back soon. But that doesn't amount to much if you're missing much of the campaign (and subsequently most of the karma).

Upon writing this, it occurs to me I wouldn't have such a problem with free spirit PCs if they had instead called them Wild Spirit PCs, since wild spirits follow so many fewer of the "known rules" of spirits.

3) Theorhetical Application of Above:

What exactly would happen if an initiated mage with the Ally Conjuration metamagic summoned an inhabitation spirit into himself? How exactly would the rules cover this? More specifically, if he were to arrange the inhabitation to cause a Hybrid Form inhabitation merge. Would the mage have just found a (quasi) cheaper version of playing a more powerful free spirit (and follow the free spirit rules in Street Magic)? The core rules seem to point towards the PC losing control of the character, yet there is some wording within the Inhabitation power that may allow lenient DMs to let the PC retain his character, with appropriate RP changes.

End

So have I missed some things, or are the above more or less true? Discuss.

EDIT: Edited for final thougts and finishing touches. Also revised finishing thoughts for the debate from later pages.

In Running Wild, page 174, they have added very interesting rules for calling free/wild spirits and gaining favors from them, similar to summoning and binding (in that you can cause a spirit to appear and gain a number of favors from said spirit), under the Calling and Offering section.

Advancement:- It may raise its attributes, which start at a rating equal to the Force of the spirit.- It may raise or gain new skills.- It may initiate as a magician, although this process grants one additional free spirit power per grade instead of a metamagic technique. They are as follows:* The spirit type's normal power list (in this case - none).* One of the following powers: Astral Gateway, Aura Masking, Divining, Essence Drain, Materialization, Possession, or Realistic Form.* Any metamagic technique. Free spirits use Edge in place of initiation grade.* A unique free spirit power listed under Free Spirit Powers, p. 109 Street Magic.- It may raise its Force, raising all attributes and powers based on Force, at the cost of new Force rating x 10.

5) Applicable Result/Guide

After completing an Occult Knowledge Test, you gain the information to Call a special type of spirit, with the powers listed above. You either craft yourself or have a contact craft for you the paraphernalia required to Call the spirit at Force 1 (two radical animal blood reagents, availability 8, 400 total) and preparing a chosen weapon as a Prepared Vessel (one radical animal blood reagent, availability 8, 200 ). After successfully Calling the spirit, you bargain with it for the express reason of Inhabiting the weapon, using its powers (or powers it will gain) to keep you alive, and you will feed it with the life energy of your enemies; ie: "I know that spirits such as yourself are obsessed with power. I have a great amount of martial prowess. In return for you using your abilities to keep me alive, I will guarantee that you will feast on the souls of my enemies, adding their power to your own."

With their 2 dicepool against your Charisma + Negotiation (+ all those extra bonuses we all know and love), you will win.

The spirit (an apparent variant of a blood spirit) at Force 1 cannot gain a True Form Inhabitation Merge, as he cannot exceed the Object Resistance of the weapon you have chosen. This will result in either a Hybrid Form Inhabitation Merge (which is most desirable), or likely a Flesh Form Inhabitation Merge, causing the weapon to become Dual-Natured (now dangerous against those pesky astral forms) and much harder (Immunity [Normal Weapons]), among other things. Please note that this must take place inside a magical lodge with a Force equal or higher than that of the spirit, in this case, 1. Also, the only forseeable problem is that of the spirit in question Critically glitching on the Inhabitation check; this can be fixed with the spirit initially having the Guard power active on itself.

I present to you: Bloodmourne.

Alternatively (and more expensively), you can follow this same preceedure to similarly "enchant" barbed arrows (or bolts). As the arrow is stuck in the enemy, the spirit within begins to deal additional "DoT" (Damamge over Time) damage to him, gaining 1 point of karma per point of physical damage dealt (as per Energy Drain [Karma]). If the enemy wants to stop this, he must remove the barbed arrow.

I present to you: the Blooddrinker Arrows (I brainstormed these with Ragewind, and he insists they should be named Souldrinker Arrows, but as I'm posting this ).

A 1-Up for Blooddrinker Arrows would be using Injection Arrows as the base arrow, and remember to include a dose of Slab. As they lie there for at least an hour due to the Slab drug, your Bolt-Buddy finishes killing them to suck the karma out of their blood.

In all cases, the Bloodmourne system of Dual-Natured weapons manufacturing creates an extremely flexible system of creating a smart-weapon capable of aiding its wielder immensely (and possibly similarly to using mooks for hacking), and it only gets better over time.

darthmord

Mar 13 2009, 05:29 PM

The part about Inhabitation...

The spirit may run afoul of the rules regarding being forced through wards and such. That may give grounds for the spirit-in-a-weapon to add its bonus damage to the attack.

A flaming sword should do more damage than a sword of the same make/model that doesn't have such a spirit in it. Those flames aren't illusory after all.

===================

The part about Free Spirits...

Keep in mind that BP costs were also assigned in such a manner as to represent relative rarity as well. Something that costs 100 BP is more rare than something that costs 30 BP. Or so it was said here on Dumpshock.

I tried to build one with 400 BP, 75k money, and 25 Karma (build requirements I was given). I stopped after getting through attributes and trying to get skills. Wasn't worth the effort IMO.

Cost was waay out of proportion for the benefits.

===================

Regarding the Theory...

Been talked about here before. Basically, the spirit goes free. It also gains all of your memories (with a good enough merge), skills, abilities, etc. Not supposed to get Conjuring but not sure if that ever got errata.

Most GMs I believe would NPC the mage character.

DoomFrog

Mar 13 2009, 05:33 PM

I think you underestimate the power of a free spirit PC. Here is a pretty min/max'ed Free Spirit PC that is Force 6 using just the 400BP starting build system.

The character would be a powerful spirit that was recently freed. Knowing very little about the real world, and having no possessions it joined with the group of runners it meet to learn more about the world. Of course for this character to work you would need 3+ other runners in the group, and you might still need to fill out the friendship pact with some of the groups more trusted contacts. But you would not take damage unless the enemy did more than 12, and when you do take damage you have a 8DP for regen. The wording in Runner's Companion says "The spirit may not return to Earth until it has completely healed, again using the same rules as metahumans." So the character could still regen and use a Heal spell, and would return immediately after fully healing because of Friendship Pact.

As for your second question about a mage PC using an Inhabitation Spirit on himself to become a quasi Free Spirit, a mage could do it. The only problem with that is that the mage's spirit is destroyed and the Inhabitation Spirit now controls the mage's body. So technically the PC's character would be killed and the NPC spirit would take over his character's body. If the GM was fine with the PC playing the new Inhibitation Spirit, then it would work. Otherwise, the character would have killed himself.

Neraph

Mar 13 2009, 06:08 PM

How would the bound foci work into this? Core, the person dies, the spirit takes over, the foci deactivate, the spirit cannot bind.

However, the notes of Inhabitation state that (up to the GM) the person's spirit doesn't have to be consumed. Think Prince Arthas becoming the Lich King. And then, how would bound foci work?

darthmord

Mar 13 2009, 06:34 PM

Well, given the nature of the change...

I would say either "Congrats! you have now have barter material. Spirits cannot bind foci."

or...

"You have to re-bind the foci. Remember, Inhabiting spirits with a good merge inherit the host's skills, memories, and abilities. That would include the ability to bind foci IMO.

On a side note, I have wondered what would happen to an Inhabiting Spirit that crossed the threshold into a downcycle of mana. IE: It's in a human body at the end of the 6th World and enters the 7th. Would it be forced back to the metaplanes?

DoomFrog

Mar 13 2009, 11:17 PM

QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 13 2009, 11:08 AM)

How would the bound foci work into this? Core, the person dies, the spirit takes over, the foci deactivate, the spirit cannot bind.

However, the notes of Inhabitation state that (up to the GM) the person's spirit doesn't have to be consumed. Think Prince Arthas becoming the Lich King. And then, how would bound foci work?

I don't think you would use a Binding Foci when dealing with a Inhabitation Spirit. Basically you would summon a spirit with the Inhabitation skill, then using one of your services you would ask it to inhabit you. But once your services ran out, the Inhabiting spirit would take over your body.

And looking into it more, the PC's mind isn't destroyed when inhabited by a summoned spirit.

QUOTE (Street Magic Pg.95)

A conjurer whose body is possessed by a spirit he summoned can retain some control by issuing mental commands to the spirit (in a manner similar to a hacker/rigger and a subscribed drone). In this case, the conjurer is aware of the spirit's actions (he still perceives through his body), but he has only indirect control rather than direct motor control.

It basically the spirit makes all the skill tests you just decide which ones to make.

But that brings up the question of what happens when your services run out. You summon a spirit with 5 services. You use 1 to have it inhabit you. Once the other 4 are up, the spirit takes control. So you go with the original idea and use a Ally Spirit, who would still follow your orders.

So after all this, yes. A magician that gains an Ally Spirit could have it inhabit his/her own body, thus becoming a quasi Free Spirit character. Except that you wouldn't have the "no permanate death" of a real Free Spirit character. If your inhabitation resulted in True Form, your body would be destroyed and when the spirit was disrupted your body wouldn't exist to resummon your Ally Spirit. And with Hybrid and Flesh form, your body would be killed if you took enough damage, thus you would die.

Starmage21

Mar 13 2009, 11:55 PM

QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Mar 13 2009, 12:33 PM)

I think you underestimate the power of a free spirit PC. Here is a pretty min/max'ed Free Spirit PC that is Force 6 using just the 400BP starting build system.

The character would be a powerful spirit that was recently freed. Knowing very little about the real world, and having no possessions it joined with the group of runners it meet to learn more about the world. Of course for this character to work you would need 3+ other runners in the group, and you might still need to fill out the friendship pact with some of the groups more trusted contacts. But you would not take damage unless the enemy did more than 12, and when you do take damage you have a 8DP for regen. The wording in Runner's Companion says "The spirit may not return to Earth until it has completely healed, again using the same rules as metahumans." So the character could still regen and use a Heal spell, and would return immediately after fully healing because of Friendship Pact.

That character is certainly high force, but nowhere near what an actual force 6 conjured spirit that can do everything the free spirit can, but better, and have better attributes, and even better edge. You still get your disruption just as was stated above. Free spirits are worthless as PCs with the current costs.

Neraph

Mar 14 2009, 04:08 AM

QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Mar 13 2009, 05:17 PM)

I don't think you would use a Binding Foci when dealing with a Inhabitation Spirit. Basically you would summon a spirit with the Inhabitation skill, then using one of your services you would ask it to inhabit you. But once your services ran out, the Inhabiting spirit would take over your body.

And looking into it more, the PC's mind isn't destroyed when inhabited by a summoned spirit.

It basically the spirit makes all the skill tests you just decide which ones to make.

But that brings up the question of what happens when your services run out. You summon a spirit with 5 services. You use 1 to have it inhabit you. Once the other 4 are up, the spirit takes control. So you go with the original idea and use a Ally Spirit, who would still follow your orders.

So after all this, yes. A magician that gains an Ally Spirit could have it inhabit his/her own body, thus becoming a quasi Free Spirit character. Except that you wouldn't have the "no permanate death" of a real Free Spirit character. If your inhabitation resulted in True Form, your body would be destroyed and when the spirit was disrupted your body wouldn't exist to resummon your Ally Spirit. And with Hybrid and Flesh form, your body would be killed if you took enough damage, thus you would die.

You're confusing posession with inhabitation. Posession works like how you're talking, inhabitation is completely different. And Ally Spirits have infinite tasks owed.

And I wasn't talking about a Binding Focus, I was talking about having any foci bound to the caster at all.

Neraph

Mar 14 2009, 04:12 AM

QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Mar 13 2009, 05:55 PM)

That character is certainly high force, but nowhere near what an actual force 6 conjured spirit that can do everything the free spirit can, but better, and have better attributes, and even better edge. You still get your disruption just as was stated above. Free spirits are worthless as PCs with the current costs.

That was exactly my point.

Now, if they cost even 350 BP, and started with the core 5 "spirit skills" at a rating equal to their force, and had powers more in line with what real spirits get, then yeah I can see myself playing one. But currently, nope. Not really.

Which is why I found my "Fun with Inhabitation and Ally Spirit" loophole. It's even more broken if used in karmagen.

Starmage21

Mar 14 2009, 10:48 PM

QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 13 2009, 11:12 PM)

That was exactly my point.

Now, if they cost even 350 BP, and started with the core 5 "spirit skills" at a rating equal to their force, and had powers more in line with what real spirits get, then yeah I can see myself playing one. But currently, nope. Not really.

Which is why I found my "Fun with Inhabitation and Ally Spirit" loophole. It's even more broken if used in karmagen.

Yeah, karmagen free spirits can get nasty, but still only getting close to what non-free spirits have at their disposal.

Neraph

Mar 15 2009, 05:19 AM

No, I was talking about using the karmagen rules to build an Ally Spirit to inhabit you. I think you could easily afford a force 10, maybe even a force 12 Ally Spirit (and the magic 6 required to conjure it), not to mention a slew of spells and a handful of skills to give it (at force 10-12).

merashin

Mar 23 2009, 12:29 AM

hey, i was making a free spirit as a character for fun, and had a question. If I am possession tradition, and inside a homunculus what exactly would happen if i cast the shapechange spell? would the homunculus shift, or would the spell just fizzle? And would the attributes of the form of the homunculus be modified by force as per normal, or not? I didn't feel like starting a new thread to ask this, so i just asked in a thread that is already about free spirit characters.

Draco18s

Mar 23 2009, 02:14 AM

Simple answer:The universe implodes.

(Because the writers couldn't think of a valid reason not to stuff a Bag of Holding into a Bag of Holding).

Long answer:I honestly don't know.

Neraph

Mar 23 2009, 03:32 PM

I would say the homunculus changes form.

EDIT: However, as soon as you were to leave the homunculus, it would revert to being statuary: it wouldn't remain an animal.

AllTheNothing

Mar 23 2009, 04:00 PM

QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Mar 13 2009, 06:33 PM)

I think you underestimate the power of a free spirit PC. Here is a pretty min/max'ed Free Spirit PC that is Force 6 using just the 400BP starting build system.

The character would be a powerful spirit that was recently freed. Knowing very little about the real world, and having no possessions it joined with the group of runners it meet to learn more about the world. Of course for this character to work you would need 3+ other runners in the group, and you might still need to fill out the friendship pact with some of the groups more trusted contacts. But you would not take damage unless the enemy did more than 12, and when you do take damage you have a 8DP for regen. The wording in Runner's Companion says "The spirit may not return to Earth until it has completely healed, again using the same rules as metahumans." So the character could still regen and use a Heal spell, and would return immediately after fully healing because of Friendship Pact.

As for your second question about a mage PC using an Inhabitation Spirit on himself to become a quasi Free Spirit, a mage could do it. The only problem with that is that the mage's spirit is destroyed and the Inhabitation Spirit now controls the mage's body. So technically the PC's character would be killed and the NPC spirit would take over his character's body. If the GM was fine with the PC playing the new Inhibitation Spirit, then it would work. Otherwise, the character would have killed himself.

I would go for Power Pact instead of Friendship Pact, friendsip pact cappes the maximum force that the spirit can reach, and forces the spirit to bind itself to mortals, while the power pact endes after 24 hours, and the cost of the quality in Street Magic is what the spirit askes in return for granting the power, nothing forbids the spirit from granting it for free (your teammates are going to love the regeneration and IfNW powers), and lets face it, it's a great way to harvest karma, which gang would turn down the opportunity of having IfNW AND regeneration?

Neraph

Mar 23 2009, 04:58 PM

QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Mar 23 2009, 10:00 AM)

I would go for Power Pact instead of Friendship Pact, friendsip pact cappes the maximum force that the spirit can reach, and forces the spirit to bind itself to mortals, while the power pact endes after 24 hours, and the cost of the quality in Street Magic is what the spirit askes in return for granting the power, nothing forbids the spirit from granting it for free (your teammates are going to love the regeneration and IfNW powers), and lets face it, it's a great way to harvest karma, which gang would turn down the opportunity of having IfNW AND regeneration?

Friendship Pact + magical group contact = Gold.

Let's do a Contact 2/Loyalty 5 (maybe 6) group with 20-99 people in it (+2), Sprawl-Wide (+2), and most members have magical talents (+4). For 15 BP we have an infinite pool for our Friendship Pact to pull from.

EDIT: Don't forget you get a pact for free, and can take additional ones for 1 SP (Spirit Point, not to be confused with adepts). Grab Power Pact, Drain Pact, or something else, and go to town with your own 90-person magical group! Charge 1 karma a week each for the ability to add your Force to their drain as many times as they want each day, and at Loyalty 5 (6 for 1 additional BP) they'll jump at the chance! Welcome to 90 karma/week.

darthmord

Mar 23 2009, 06:10 PM

QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 23 2009, 12:58 PM)

Friendship Pact + magical group contact = Gold.

Let's do a Contact 2/Loyalty 5 (maybe 6) group with 20-99 people in it (+2), Sprawl-Wide (+2), and most members have magical talents (+4). For 15 BP we have an infinite pool for our Friendship Pact to pull from.

EDIT: Don't forget you get a pact for free, and can take additional ones for 1 SP (Spirit Point, not to be confused with adepts). Grab Power Pact, Drain Pact, or something else, and go to town with your own 90-person magical group! Charge 1 karma a week each for the ability to add your Force to their drain as many times as they want each day, and at Loyalty 5 (6 for 1 additional BP) they'll jump at the chance! Welcome to 90 karma/week.

LOL... I hadn't thought of that. ~90 Karma/week means for some serious advancement. That rate of income would quickly cover and remove most of the weaknesses of a Free Spirit.

That said, I doubt most GMs would allow such twinkery. Though could you imagine a Face-like Free Spirit? It'd be able to talk most magic users into that Pact without much trouble and BAM! Road to Success .

Neraph

Mar 23 2009, 06:54 PM

QUOTE (darthmord @ Mar 23 2009, 12:10 PM)

That said, I doubt most GMs would allow such twinkery. Though could you imagine a Face-like Free Spirit? It'd be able to talk most magic users into that Pact without much trouble and BAM! Road to Success .

Exactly. I noticed that trick the second I finished reading Free Spirits in Runner's Companion, then checking the Spirit Pact rules in Street Magic. It was worded in such a way to make one assume that you got Spirit Pact power for free, but as I remembered them, all Pacts were under Spirit Pact.

Street Magicsuggested not all spirits that can give Pacts have all Pacts, and Runner's Companion pretty much made that the rule.

InfinityzeN

Mar 23 2009, 07:41 PM

In a year that would be the scariest spirit anyone has ever seen. Even slanting towards a smaller group of only 40 people, you still looking at over two thousand karma in a year! Increase the group size to 48 and your looking at over two hundred karma a month.

Neraph

Mar 23 2009, 07:52 PM

Using the methods described above, we can also gain an Ally Spirit far better than any Weapon/Power focus you can buy.

For example: A Force 2 Weapon Focus/Force 2 Power Focus counts as a Force 4 Stacked Focus and costs 70,000 with a 20R Availability and costs 22 karma to bind.

On the other hand, we can take 24 karma (2 more karma) and make a Force 3 Inhabitation Ally Spirit to Inhabit a sword, gaining no extra dice to attack like you would a weapon focus, but the weapon is now Dual Natured, still allowing us to attack creatures with ItNW. We also gain a net +1 dice to spellcasting (using the Ally Spirit's Aid Sorcery ability), although we don't get the bonus to all uses of our Magic attribute. If we give the Ally Spirit interesting powers, we get a more versatile Spirit Weapon.

For the sake of argument, let's make the weapon a staff, and the Conjurer a Hermetic Mage. He chooses Elemental Aura (Fire), Concealment, and Guard. He now has a flaming staff that deals (Str/2+5)P(fire) damage with 2 reach and -1/2 AP, and can now give anyone trying to see the Conjurer a -3 penalty on their rolls (including Assensing), and completely protects him from glitches.

This can, of course, become much more interesting if said Conjurer has his Ally Spirit Inhabit a Power/Weapon focus.

This concept has a very large power curve, by the way.

EDIT: Note: That is assuming a mage with Ally Conjuration. It is free (karma-wise) to track down a Free Spirit's Spirit Formula, summon him, then cause him to Inhabit a weapon. If done right, he might even thank you.

Draco18s

Mar 23 2009, 08:00 PM

QUOTE (darthmord @ Mar 23 2009, 02:10 PM)

LOL... I hadn't thought of that. ~90 Karma/week means for some serious advancement. That rate of income would quickly cover and remove most of the weaknesses of a Free Spirit.

That said, I doubt most GMs would allow such twinkery. Though could you imagine a Face-like Free Spirit? It'd be able to talk most magic users into that Pact without much trouble and BAM! Road to Success .

EDIT: That 90 karma/week is being nice too. With a 2/6 contact (not changing the BP cost) we could even charge 1 karma/day.

90 karma/day. Think about that.

darthmord

Mar 23 2009, 08:27 PM

QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Mar 23 2009, 02:41 PM)

In a year that would be the scariest spirit anyone has ever seen. Even slanting towards a smaller group of only 40 people, you still looking at over two thousand karma in a year! Increase the group size to 48 and your looking at over two hundred karma a month.

In under a year I imagine it'd be able to challenge a pack of Great Dragons and win. 2000 Karma is a lot of points to spend and buff up with, especially with the breadth of access to fun things that Spirits have if you can get the karma for them.

AllTheNothing

Mar 23 2009, 10:22 PM

Don't forget that Friendship pact caps the spirit force to the number of people involved, if something brings down the number of people that has made the pact with the spirit the force is going down (and the GM will make sure it will happen at a certain point), on the other hand a Life pact, Drain pact, Magic pact and Power pact can be very tempting for metahumans granting a (posibly) lower karma gains within short timeframe but allowing to eventualy reach higher force in the long run (the magic group can still be befriended/exploited after all).

Neraph

Mar 24 2009, 12:29 AM

QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Mar 23 2009, 04:22 PM)

Don't forget that Friendship pact caps the spirit force to the number of people involved, if something brings down the number of people that has made the pact with the spirit the force is going down (and the GM will make sure it will happen at a certain point), on the other hand a Life pact, Drain pact, Magic pact and Power pact can be very tempting for metahumans granting a (posibly) lower karma gains within short timeframe but allowing to eventualy reach higher force in the long run (the magic group can still be befriended/exploited after all).

Why not multiples? A basic, no frills added Free Spirit PC can get 3 Spirit Pacts. Drain, Life, and another one of your choice (you're not going to stay F4-ish long enough to worry about the 30 - Force days from being disrupted).

Stormdrake

Mar 24 2009, 02:50 PM

So have a player who has made a Free Spirit character. The spirit is of the Vodoo tradition and therefore has posession rather than materilization. At 400BP the resulting character on average has lower stats than any of the other toons. Yes, he does have access to some interesting powers but with the new change to stat cost the Free Spirit player is really getting smacked. To counter this, the posession track is about the only way to get a playable toon at chargen as far as I can see. I like the spirit pack work around but as the ST I can't let him do that as it would unbalance the game way to much and the other players would soon mutiny, lol.

Neraph

Mar 24 2009, 05:21 PM

QUOTE (Stormdrake @ Mar 24 2009, 08:50 AM)

So have a player who has made a Free Spirit character. The spirit is of the Vodoo tradition and therefore has posession rather than materilization. At 400BP the resulting character on average has lower stats than any of the other toons. Yes, he does have access to some interesting powers but with the new change to stat cost the Free Spirit player is really getting smacked. To counter this, the posession track is about the only way to get a playable toon at chargen as far as I can see. I like the spirit pack work around but as the ST I can't let him do that as it would unbalance the game way to much and the other players would soon mutiny, lol.

Exactly.

For posession, he should get the 30 BP Negative Quality "In Debt", giving him an extra 30,000 . With that, he should go buy himself a Plassteel Homunculus. That'll give him the staying power he needs until he can raise force a little more.

Also, (if you want to) tell him about the Magical Group Contact idea and suggest the Power Pact. That way he gets a few spells for entering into Pacts with his Voodoo group (helping him out a little bit in the versatility department).

Or hell, let him get a Troll 1/6 contact that he posesses.

DamienKnight

Jul 31 2009, 03:15 PM

QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 15 2009, 12:19 AM)

No, I was talking about using the karmagen rules to build an Ally Spirit to inhabit you. I think you could easily afford a force 10, maybe even a force 12 Ally Spirit (and the magic 6 required to conjure it), not to mention a slew of spells and a handful of skills to give it (at force 10-12).

It may not be limited by RAW, but common sense (and a desire for balance) has caused my group to house rule that you cannot create an Ally spirit whose magic rating is higher than your own.

If using karma gen, with initiation (assumed if you are allowing ally conjuration) you could still intiation 3 times and raise your magic to 9, then start with a force 9 spirit.

One of the characters in my game just create a initiate 2 magic 8 mage with a force 8 ally spirit. The spirit is very powerful, but I am just glad the player is spending less time with his Vampire Mystic Adept with force 6 possession spirits!

Neraph

Jul 31 2009, 04:58 PM

QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Jul 31 2009, 10:15 AM)

It may not be limited by RAW, but common sense (and a desire for balance) has caused my group to house rule that you cannot create an Ally spirit whose magic rating is higher than your own.

If using karma gen, with initiation (assumed if you are allowing ally conjuration) you could still intiation 3 times and raise your magic to 9, then start with a force 9 spirit.

One of the characters in my game just create a initiate 2 magic 8 mage with a force 8 ally spirit. The spirit is very powerful, but I am just glad the player is spending less time with his Vampire Mystic Adept with force 6 possession spirits!

If he had read this thread, that Magic 8 ally spirit would have Inhabitation and it would have long since become him. Even with your houserule of Ally Spirit's Force, you could still get extremely powerful Ally Spirits.

For example, pay the karma for your guy to have Sorcery skillgroup 1, Ranged Weapon Skill of your choice 1, and a few other skills at 1. Get your Magic to 8, get a few spell formulae (with cash), and when you sit down for your Ally Spirit's Formula, pop the 5 karma/skill for all those r1 skills of yours to become r8 for the spirit, as well as the 5 karma/spell for the ally spirit to know the spells that are on your commlink. Then get it to inhabit you.

DamienKnight

Jul 31 2009, 05:15 PM

Inhabitation cannot be channeled, so the mage would no longer have control of himself. That means the player is basically retired, now controlled by an NPC spirit.

Neraph

Jul 31 2009, 05:19 PM

QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Jul 31 2009, 11:15 AM)

Inhabitation cannot be channeled, so the mage would no longer have control of himself. That means the player is basically retired, now controlled by an NPC spirit.

If you choose to play it that way. Otherwise, the person retains control of a now free spirit, based off of his old character. That is the entire point of this thread; go back and read my opening post.

For example; a hermetic mage goes through the process of creating an ally spirit to inhabit himself, and the spirit's form is actually his idealized self. He forces a Hybrid Merge, so the spirit retains fragments of his memories (but does not gain his knowledge skills). For all intents and purposes, that ally spirit (now a free spirit) has some of his memories, and his entire personality. The only reason you wouldn't allow this is because you don't want to.

Ravor

Jul 31 2009, 06:03 PM

No, I wouldn't allow it because no matter how you cut it, the Spirit is a NPC and is not the Mage in question, it's the same reason that I wouldn't allow a character burn his personity onto a BTL personafix and then play an army of "himself".

Neraph

Aug 1 2009, 04:56 PM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Jul 31 2009, 12:03 PM)

No, I wouldn't allow it because no matter how you cut it, the Spirit is a NPC and is not the Mage in question, it's the same reason that I wouldn't allow a character burn his personity onto a BTL personafix and then play an army of "himself".

Ok, so you choose not to allow it. That doesn't mean that someone else won't allow it. This is an extremely clever idea, and I would allow it, so long as a hybrid or flesh form (especially a flesh form merge) is obtained.

Zormal

Aug 1 2009, 05:25 PM

QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 1 2009, 07:56 PM)

Ok, so you choose not to allow it. That doesn't mean that someone else won't allow it. This is an extremely clever idea, and I would allow it, so long as a hybrid or flesh form (especially a flesh form merge) is obtained.

It would definitely be a powergaming houserule.Why not play a free spirit to begin with?

Edit: You could go for a 600BP build or more, since you're going for a high-powered game.

Neraph

Aug 2 2009, 04:36 PM

QUOTE (Zormal @ Aug 1 2009, 12:25 PM)

It would definitely be a powergaming houserule.Why not play a free spirit to begin with?

Edit: You could go for a 600BP build or more, since you're going for a high-powered game.

This is not meant for chargen, although you can pull it off if you use karmagen. And, if you read the actual OP, you'll see that the rules for making free spirits suck ***. Seriously, in order to get all the things a summoned spirit gets, you'd be a Force 2.5 character, but you would only have 2 Spirit Points worth of spirit powers, which is almost useless (compared to an actual spirit).

Zormal

Aug 2 2009, 05:50 PM

QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 2 2009, 07:36 PM)

This is not meant for chargen, although you can pull it off if you use karmagen. And, if you read the actual OP, you'll see that the rules for making free spirits suck ***. Seriously, in order to get all the things a summoned spirit gets, you'd be a Force 2.5 character, but you would only have 2 Spirit Points worth of spirit powers, which is almost useless (compared to an actual spirit).

Yes, that is true. It's mostly because they tried to keep the resulting PCs somewhat balanced with other metatypes. If you want a higher-powered game, you have to change some things. Upping the BPs (throw in some Karma) to get to the wanted level seemed like the simplest way to go.

What you've done is allow the player to play an NPC that has been made without any BP (or Karma) limits - the Spirit. Removing the limits can be fun, though often players end up lacking any long-term goals.

Just make sure everyone around the table has their own über character to go with that Spirit and you're in for a (un)healthy amount of carnage

Edit: Similarly, you could switch to playing Harlequin or a Dragon

Ravor

Aug 3 2009, 12:52 AM

So tell me, would you allow someone to play an army of personafixed "clones" that was custom made for him?

Neraph

Aug 3 2009, 02:27 PM

QUOTE (Zormal @ Aug 2 2009, 11:50 AM)

Yes, that is true. It's mostly because they tried to keep the resulting PCs somewhat balanced with other metatypes. If you want a higher-powered game, you have to change some things. Upping the BPs (throw in some Karma) to get to the wanted level seemed like the simplest way to go.

What you've done is allow the player to play an NPC that has been made without any BP (or Karma) limits - the Spirit. Removing the limits can be fun, though often players end up lacking any long-term goals.

Just make sure everyone around the table has their own über character to go with that Spirit and you're in for a (un)healthy amount of carnage

Edit: Similarly, you could switch to playing Harlequin or a Dragon

Actually, no, the main point of the thread was an Ally Spirit, which costs a lot of karma. The one I'm currently testing cost me 109 karma, and that's not including the Initiation.

Neraph

Aug 3 2009, 02:30 PM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Aug 2 2009, 06:52 PM)

So tell me, would you allow someone to play an army of personafixed "clones" that was custom made for him?

One at a time, and as long as they had the Escaped Clone positive quality.

Or; the player paid out the cash to get full body clones of himself and trained them. Seeing as how a new clone would still have the mentality of a child, they would either require Personafixes to function or a Stirrup Interface with a Pilot program with the Personality Interface (last option prolly works better).

But yes, if he figures out how to accomplish it in the rules, there is no reason that I should disallow it.

EDIT: Another way of saying that is this: it is a sign of a bad GM when you disallow something that is within the ruleset, simply because the GM feels threatened by a more clever player.

darthmord

Aug 3 2009, 02:53 PM

QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Jul 31 2009, 10:15 AM)

It may not be limited by RAW, but common sense (and a desire for balance) has caused my group to house rule that you cannot create an Ally spirit whose magic rating is higher than your own.

Why not? You can summon PER RAW a Spirit whose Force / Magic is up to 2x your Magic attribute.

I like your appeals to 'common sense' & 'a desire for balance'. Nice subtle slam against everyone who doesn't see it your way as lacking in such faculties.

Neraph

Aug 3 2009, 03:26 PM

QUOTE (darthmord @ Aug 3 2009, 08:53 AM)

Why not? You can summon PER RAW a Spirit whose Force / Magic is up to 2x your Magic attribute.

I like your appeals to 'common sense' & 'a desire for balance'. Nice subtle slam against everyone who doesn't see it your way as lacking in such faculties.

You're last line seems a little like an invitation to a flamethrower war, and due to the Geneva Conventions considering humane warefare, I think you should weigh your comments a little more carefully.

That being said, I agree. The common sense part was a little insulting (and not really common sense at all; you of course can over-summon spirits, and Ally Spirits are simply a different type of spirit), but I do understand the 'desire for balance'.

EDIT: It should also be noted that an "out of the box" Insect Shaman can use this technique, albeit only using a normal summoned spirit, not an Ally. But, if the shaman summons, say, a Soldier or Nymph spirit, it actually works out fairly well.

Zormal

Aug 3 2009, 04:29 PM

QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 3 2009, 05:27 PM)

Actually, no, the main point of the thread was an Ally Spirit, which costs a lot of karma. The one I'm currently testing cost me 109 karma, and that's not including the Initiation.

Granted. But the Karma used for an Ally that you can't directly control (and that has other player limitations as well) is totally disproportional to building a like character from scratch, like you said yourself when you compared it to building a Free Spirit.

I'm just gonna say this once more as clearly as I can, and then drop it. Killing yourself by getting Inhabited and then playing the next entity in your body is not within the rules. In fact, it goes directly against RAW, which state "During merging, the vessel's original spirit is consumed and for all intents and purposes that character is essentially lost" (Street Magic p.100). I don't really see how this is open to interpretation.

You can still play it that way, of course, and if everyone around the table enjoys themselves after the rules change, I'm happy for you.

Neraph

Aug 3 2009, 04:39 PM

QUOTE (Zormal @ Aug 3 2009, 10:29 AM)

In fact, it goes directly against RAW, which state "During merging, the vessel's original spirit is consumed and for all intents and purposes that character is essentially lost" (Street Magic p.100). I don't really see how this is open to interpretation.

Please quote things in their entirety. I understand why you would not like to, as it directly disagrees with your views. You left out the important part:

QUOTE (Street Magic, page 100)

(though, as always, gamemasters may decide otherwise if appropriate to their stories).

Also, I refer you to Flesh Form merges:

QUOTE (Street Magic, page 100)

The combined entity retains all of the memories, abilities, and skills (both Active and Knowledge) of the host...

Although a hybrid merge is the most desireable, as you can still use DNI.

QUOTE (Street Magic, page 100)

...though it only has few of the host's memories and none of its skills... Unlike posession spirits, hybrid form merges can operate a direct neural interface and the host's cyberware (if any) continues to function for the spirit.

Zormal

Aug 3 2009, 04:56 PM

The GM can, as always, change any rule as they wish. I didn't think it necessary to include that in my quote. I see it as a possibility for a story, not so much as an rules alternative, but I can see how that is open to interpretation. I'm still standing by what I said

As to the sidebar, I don't see how it's relevant. The resulting entity is the Spirit (or a new entity created in the merge, if you want to see it that way), which ate and digested the mage's memories.

If you create an Ally and have it Inhabit your worst enemy, the resulting merge would still be loyal to you, because it's the spirit and not the (now dead) enemy. It would only have the host's memory of hating you.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I hope this didn't come out too pushy

Ravor

Aug 3 2009, 05:08 PM

Neraph so tell me, why have you choosen to disallow a character's clever plan of playing an army of "himself" via P-Fixs? I never said anything about using wimps either, just BTL Grade P-Fixes.

Neraph

Aug 3 2009, 06:31 PM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Aug 3 2009, 11:08 AM)

Neraph so tell me, why have you choosen to disallow a character's clever plan of playing an army of "himself" via P-Fixs? I never said anything about using wimps either, just BTL Grade P-Fixes.

Tell me where I said I wouldn't allow it.

QUOTE (Neraph Posted Today, 08:30 AM )

But yes, if he figures out how to accomplish it in the rules, there is no reason that I should disallow it.

I said it's fine, and I gave some examples of how it would be accomplished. Now, if he just wanted people p-fixed to himself, he couldn't start with it, as there is no pricetag for people in the book. There is one for wimps, though. And as soon as he entered game, figured out a way to detain people, and equipped them with the proper gear, then yes, it would be possible and I would not disallow it.

That does not mean, however, that the 'Star might allow it. Or the people's families may put a 'run out on the p-fixer. Those are not angry GM taking it out in game for a character's cleverness. That is simply using a player's roleplay/in game actions to determine likeable outcomes and provide further gaming.

Ravor

Aug 3 2009, 09:53 PM

QUOTE (Neraph)

One at a time, and as long as they had the Escaped Clone positive quality.

So tell me, which statement reflects your posistion, will you artifically enforce a "one at a time" rule or would you let the character control multiple P-Fixes at the same time?

Neraph

Aug 4 2009, 04:02 PM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Aug 3 2009, 03:53 PM)

So tell me, which statement reflects your posistion, will you artifically enforce a "one at a time" rule or would you let the character control multiple P-Fixes at the same time?

Um, if you read the rest of my two posts, I actually do say how it is possible to play more than one person at a time. You seem to be only reading what you want to read.

EDIT: And in any event, the possibility of playing an army of p-fixed clones does not in any way prevent someone from using an Inhabitation Ally Spirit to Lich King himself.

Ravor

Aug 4 2009, 05:52 PM

No, in one post you said that you'd allow them to play one character at a time and in the other you left the possiblity of playing more than one character at a time I was asking which one you are prepared to stand by.

And the two situations are closely connected as they both involved allowing a player to control a NPC.

McAllister

Aug 4 2009, 05:54 PM

Neraph, I think Ravor is actually trying to guide you towards a sort of philosophical question; what is the player? Is it the character's mind, or the character's soul? Perhaps his assertion is that "if the player assumes the role of the character's mind, and the character inserts his mind into multiple bodies, the player should have control over each of those bodies." However, I suspect he's playing Devil's Advocate; perhaps the point he's REALLY trying to make is "it's ridiculous to think you could play more than one person using P-fix chips because, even if they all have the same mind, you [the player] are only playing as your one unique character. If that character's soul is obliterated, what have you got left? Sure a lenient GM could let you play as the spirit who took over your body, but then again, a lenient GM could let you play as Lofwyr and destroy Tokyo. Obliterating your own soul simply doesn't make any sense."

Now, Ravor, I apologize deeply if I misrepresented your point of view. I just thought I might understand where you were going with your comment.

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