"Ask the 12 inches of colon he had removed in May if Brock Lesnar is one tough SOB."

Questioning an excised piece of intestine. Yeah, I'll get right on that.

Sportswriters. This ask-the-colon citation has to rank up there with the announcer who described a boxer as "the best puncher qua puncher".

1/09/2012 5:52pm,

Syphilis

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeRC

I disagree that we are in the "era of the complete fighter"

I'd say we are on the edge of an era of the "complete athlete" such as has been the norm in other sports (ie football, basketball, baseball) where we have grown used to seeing generational training and development, seed programs, farm leagues, and the "athlete as product" system of advanced training.

You hit a point I've been wrestling with lately; MMA is no longer about fighting, but it is a sport now. It is about athletecism, not perse being the best fighter - Greg Jackson's camp for example, is really good at gameplanning matches, instead of trusting in the fighter itself. I understand that that helps you get the 'W' but it's hard to deny that it takes away a lot of the purity of the Fight.

Not that I'm offering a solution, but as someone who wasn't put into wrestling at age 4, and is not a genetic* freak, I am at a huge disadvantage in competition MMA, for example. And this kind of makes me sad, though I still compete.

(*Or roided)

1/09/2012 6:44pm,

danno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syphilis

MMA is no longer about fighting, but it is a sport now

it's a combat sport. a sport where you fight to win a contest which has less rules than any other legitimate combat sport i'm aware of. i think you're inventing a false dichotomy.

1/09/2012 6:59pm,

Ke?poFist

Psh, this is bullshit. The only reason BJJ still isn't the dominant art is because of the rules.

With all these damned stand-ups, and short rounds, a BJJ fighter can never really get cooking with his gameplan, and the biggest tragedy is that fighters now believe that to be a "complete" fighter, they need more than Jiu-Jitsu. In reality, to win in MMA you need more, because the rules keep forcing you to not use your Jiu-Jitsu, and instead try to do more "exciting" stuff that can earn you quick points or a knockout for the crowd.

In the old days a Jiu-Jitsu fighter could tie his opponent up for as long as he needed on the ground, until they either tired, or presented an opening to be submitted. Now the ref just puts it back on their feet, so the opponent knows if he just lays there like a rug instead of trying to escape, he can get stood back up.

Saying Jiu-Jitsu isn't a complete fighting system for MMA, is like saying that a crock pot isn't a complete form of cooking in a chef's competition, because the rules of the cooking show make you have to have your meal prepared in under 15 minutes. There's no time to marinade let alone, slow roast, so of course everyone's gonna be stir-frying!

1/09/2012 7:00pm,

Ke?poFist

I am so fucking amazed with myself for typing up that bullshit, but I bet you nutless monkeys can't argue against my irrefutable logic!

1/09/2012 7:02pm,

Hedgehogey

Quote:

I'm a little bit critical of the teleology of MMA the article presents, wherein the sport is broken down into a series of phases in which - lucky for us! - we happen to have just reached the pinnacle. Reminds me of Hegel and his bullshit.

Ever read "Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History" by Stephen Jay Gould?

1/09/2012 7:13pm,

Odacon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ke?poFist

I am so fucking amazed with myself for typing up that bullshit, but I bet you nutless monkeys can't argue against my irrefutable logic!

It just made me hungry...

1/09/2012 7:16pm,

chemsoldier

Is some of this development just the age of the sport?

A lot of the performance science types bandy around the 10 years to become the best at anything, be it golf, playing a musical instrument, etc. Just reading some of the bios of some MMA competitors some have not been fighting that long before they rose to prominence.

With the sport starting to age, more fighters have more hours of training and more expert coaching in exactly what you need as an MMA fighter.

I suppose that indicates that youth wrestling will likely produce successful fighters since it seems that of the combative arts it starts kids very early in truly competitive contests. I have not heard of it as much in boxing and most martial arts are less competitive and physical (except maybe Judo and JJ, but so many more kids wrestle than those sports in the US). Caveat that the youth wrestlers will probably move to other sports as early in life as they can manage, just that wrestling gets them those early hours.

1/09/2012 8:39pm,

Ke?poFist

Quote:

Originally Posted by chemsoldier

Is some of this development just the age of the sport?

A lot of the performance science types bandy around the 10 years to become the best at anything, be it golf, playing a musical instrument, etc. Just reading some of the bios of some MMA competitors some have not been fighting that long before they rose to prominence.

With the sport starting to age, more fighters have more hours of training and more expert coaching in exactly what you need as an MMA fighter.

I suppose that indicates that youth wrestling will likely produce successful fighters since it seems that of the combative arts it starts kids very early in truly competitive contests. I have not heard of it as much in boxing and most martial arts are less competitive and physical (except maybe Judo and JJ, but so many more kids wrestle than those sports in the US). Caveat that the youth wrestlers will probably move to other sports as early in life as they can manage, just that wrestling gets them those early hours.

I believe that's the entire point of the article and thread. But really BJJ is the best and all you need.

1/09/2012 9:18pm,

Bad Apple

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ke?poFist

I believe that's the entire point of the article and thread. But really BJJ is the best and all you need.