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Yeah, the only reason I knew Aragorn was not a normal human was from the Extended Edition. Eowyn turns all deredere and asks him about it, because Theoden told her that he remembered Aragon when he was a little boy.

I must have watch the Extended Edition a zillion times. And I ain't done.

I dread 2014 when watching all five movies in a row will be a possibility.

Yeah, the only reason I knew Aragorn was not a normal human was from the Extended Edition. Eowyn turns all deredere and asks him about it, because Theoden told her that he remembered Aragon when he was a little boy.

I must have watch the Extended Edition a zillion times. And I ain't done.

I dread 2014 when watching all five movies in a row will be a possibility.

Has Jackson said he's doing extended editions for the Hobbit movies?

Watching the extended trilogy in a row is already a big horrific

What, you don't have 12 hours of your life you can randomly throw away?

I do too. It cracks me up because the lack of understanding what they just read is epic.

ugh...unfortunately LOTR has its fair share of Christianity thrown into it.

That's sort of the point.

I very strongly disagree with this. One of the best qualities of Tolkien is that he very much was not another CS Lewis in his writing. To attempt to shoehorn Christianity into LOTR as published either requires a total blindness to detail or theme of the books or a definition of "christianity" that is so broad as to be meaningless.

Same thing with Narnia. Naiads, dryads, minotaurs, moving trees, river spirits and so forth.

At the risk of starting a conversation that has the potential to be both really rewarding or horrifically destructive to the gentle peace of D&D, one of the things I love about both series is how they weave pagan and christian religions together.

On the scale of religions, Narnia is clearly more on the Christian side than LOTR.

Same thing with Narnia. Naiads, dryads, minotaurs, moving trees, river spirits and so forth.

At the risk of starting a conversation that has the potential to be both really rewarding or horrifically destructive to the gentle peace of D&D, one of the things I love about both series is how they weave pagan and christian religions together.

On the scale of religions, Narnia is clearly more on the Christian side than LOTR.

I mean

Spoiler:

Aslan basically turns into Jesus at the end of the series.

Oh, true. Completely. It's just ignoring parallels like Christ carrying a burden that becomes too much and that burden be shouldered by another, a la Sam and Frodo trekking toward the final confrontation on Mount Doom because one doesn't want that nasty religious stuff in their fantasy world strikes me as hilarious.

"I don't like milkshakes with all their fat and sugar. I'll just stick to my Starbucks mochaccino caramel latte."

Mad King George on May 2012

0·

AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular

Same thing with Narnia. Naiads, dryads, minotaurs, moving trees, river spirits and so forth.

At the risk of starting a conversation that has the potential to be both really rewarding or horrifically destructive to the gentle peace of D&D, one of the things I love about both series is how they weave pagan and christian religions together.

On the scale of religions, Narnia is clearly more on the Christian side than LOTR.

I mean

Spoiler:

Aslan basically turns into Jesus at the end of the series.

Oh, true. Completely. It's just ignoring parallels like Christ carrying a burden that becomes too much and that burden be shouldered by another, a la Sam and Frodo trekking toward the final confrontation on Mount Doom because one doesn't want that nasty religious stuff in their fantasy world strikes me as hilarious.

Agreed.

Though one wonders how much of that is specifically christian instead of just the hero myth that exists in western mythology (and influenced the development of the biblical narrative).

Same thing with Narnia. Naiads, dryads, minotaurs, moving trees, river spirits and so forth.

At the risk of starting a conversation that has the potential to be both really rewarding or horrifically destructive to the gentle peace of D&D, one of the things I love about both series is how they weave pagan and christian religions together.

On the scale of religions, Narnia is clearly more on the Christian side than LOTR.

I mean

Spoiler:

Aslan basically turns into Jesus at the end of the series.

Well yes and that's why Narnia falls apart as a good narrative at the end. CS Lewis deliberately set about to make it an into to religion (and he wrote about his intent, it's not just supposition). And his works are much the worse for his hamhanded attempts to do so.

It's a completely different case with LOTR. Despite the fact that in his private life Tolkien was an even more devout believer than Lewis.

Same thing with Narnia. Naiads, dryads, minotaurs, moving trees, river spirits and so forth.

At the risk of starting a conversation that has the potential to be both really rewarding or horrifically destructive to the gentle peace of D&D, one of the things I love about both series is how they weave pagan and christian religions together.

On the scale of religions, Narnia is clearly more on the Christian side than LOTR.

I mean

Spoiler:

Aslan basically turns into Jesus at the end of the series.

Well yes and that's why Narnia falls apart as a good narrative at the end. CS Lewis deliberately set about to make it an into to religion (and he wrote about his intent, it's not just supposition). And his works are much the worse for his hamhanded attempts to do so.

It's a completely different case with LOTR. Despite the fact that in his private life Tolkien was an even more devout believer than Lewis.

Yeah, the only reason I knew Aragorn was not a normal human was from the Extended Edition. Eowyn turns all deredere and asks him about it, because Theoden told her that he remembered Aragon when he was a little boy.

I must have watch the Extended Edition a zillion times. And I ain't done.

I dread 2014 when watching all five movies in a row will be a possibility.

Has Jackson said he's doing extended editions for the Hobbit movies?

Watching the extended trilogy in a row is already a big horrific

What, you don't have 12 hours of your life you can randomly throw away?

I preordered a ticket to the Trilogy Tuesday thing they were doing when RoTK premiered. I ended up being too paranoid to skip school and sold the ticket to a friend who scheduled a "dentist appointment" that day. I don't regret the decision.

Edit: I should say, I sold it to him for the same amount I paid for at the theater. I wasn't one of the scumbags selling them for a few hundred dollars.

Same thing with Narnia. Naiads, dryads, minotaurs, moving trees, river spirits and so forth.

At the risk of starting a conversation that has the potential to be both really rewarding or horrifically destructive to the gentle peace of D&D, one of the things I love about both series is how they weave pagan and christian religions together.

On the scale of religions, Narnia is clearly more on the Christian side than LOTR.

I mean

Spoiler:

Aslan basically turns into Jesus at the end of the series.

Well yes and that's why Narnia falls apart as a good narrative at the end. CS Lewis deliberately set about to make it an into to religion (and he wrote about his intent, it's not just supposition). And his works are much the worse for his hamhanded attempts to do so.

It's a completely different case with LOTR. Despite the fact that in his private life Tolkien was an even more devout believer than Lewis.

JRR Tolkien converted Lewis and hated Narnia because it was too obvious about everything.

Same thing with Narnia. Naiads, dryads, minotaurs, moving trees, river spirits and so forth.

At the risk of starting a conversation that has the potential to be both really rewarding or horrifically destructive to the gentle peace of D&D, one of the things I love about both series is how they weave pagan and christian religions together.

On the scale of religions, Narnia is clearly more on the Christian side than LOTR.

I mean

Spoiler:

Aslan basically turns into Jesus at the end of the series.

Well yes and that's why Narnia falls apart as a good narrative at the end. CS Lewis deliberately set about to make it an into to religion (and he wrote about his intent, it's not just supposition). And his works are much the worse for his hamhanded attempts to do so.

It's a completely different case with LOTR. Despite the fact that in his private life Tolkien was an even more devout believer than Lewis.

Tolkien's many artistic hatreds included allegory, so while his religion definitely inflects his work, it is not the end of his work.

Someone needs to find his piece on the idea of sub-creation: the idea of coming closer to God by essentially mimicking his act of creation via literature. Even when Lord of the Rings can't said to be about Christianity, it was certainly written in service of a kind of Christianity.

Same thing with Narnia. Naiads, dryads, minotaurs, moving trees, river spirits and so forth.

At the risk of starting a conversation that has the potential to be both really rewarding or horrifically destructive to the gentle peace of D&D, one of the things I love about both series is how they weave pagan and christian religions together.

On the scale of religions, Narnia is clearly more on the Christian side than LOTR.

I mean

Spoiler:

Aslan basically turns into Jesus at the end of the series.

Well yes and that's why Narnia falls apart as a good narrative at the end. CS Lewis deliberately set about to make it an into to religion (and he wrote about his intent, it's not just supposition). And his works are much the worse for his hamhanded attempts to do so.

It's a completely different case with LOTR. Despite the fact that in his private life Tolkien was an even more devout believer than Lewis.

Tolkien's many artistic hatreds included allegory, so while his religion definitely inflects his work, it is not the end of his work.

Someone needs to find his piece on the idea of sub-creation: the idea of coming closer to God by essentially mimicking his act of creation via literature. Even when Lord of the Rings can't said to be about Christianity, it was certainly written in service of a kind of Christianity.

eh, I think that's definetly into the realm of making the term "christianity" so broad as to have no meaning.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
By whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth;
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.

Every form of Christianity that survived past the 4th century or was created since (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, Mormon, Jehovas Witness etc... all of them) is directly descended from that creed. Not all of them still use that form or hold to all the fine detail (pretty much every clause in that statement was put in to exclude some other forms of Christianity which existed prior to the 4th century) but that is still pretty much as basic as you can possibly distill down the idea of "Christian".

LotR is informed by a Christian view of the world, especially morality, and plays with different ideas of the nature of evil, the nature of the divine, etc.

Narnia has Jesus show up as a talking lion.

There is a difference in approach and subtility.

actually it is in terms of morality that I see some of the biggest differences.

In LOTR, to be moral is to exercise wisdom. To use ones own powers (great or small) as best as ones own judgement allows.

In Christianity, to be moral is to accept Jesus as ones savior and to follow the commandments of scripture because of their source of divine inspiration.

edit: and most importantly the people of middle earth have no direct link with the divine and no scripture or holy writ passed down to them. They are on their own and much better off for it. In the Silmarillion when the gods attempt to directly intervene and issue commandments to mortals it always blows up in their face and ends up causing more harm then good.

further edit: even more striking, when compared to the core tennant of Christianity, no one in middle earth is expected to (or even can) look to a divine source for remission or forgiveness for their sins. There are some echos of an idea of inhereted "sins" though it is much more of the Jewish idea of "sin" than the Christian. EG: not a taint that must be removed or forgiven in order to acheive a greater afterlife but instead merely a tendency to get oneself in trouble in the here and now. And the way the characters deal with this tendency is not based on seeking forgiveness from an outside entity but finding the willpower and wisdom to resist it.

LotR is informed by a Christian view of the world, especially morality, and plays with different ideas of the nature of evil, the nature of the divine, etc.

Narnia has Jesus show up as a talking lion.

There is a difference in approach and subtility.

actually it is in terms of morality that I see some of the biggest differences.

In LOTR, to be moral is to exercise wisdom. To use ones own powers (great or small) as best as ones own judgement allows.

In Christianity, to be moral is to accept Jesus as ones savior and to follow the commandments of scripture because of their source of divine inspiration.

That isn't really very accurate.

I maintain it is. How would you disagree?

in case you didn't see what I added to the above:

Most importantly the people of middle earth have no direct link with the divine and no scripture or holy writ passed down to them. They are on their own and much better off for it. In the Silmarillion when the gods attempt to directly intervene and issue commandments to mortals it always blows up in their face and ends up causing more harm then good.

Even more striking, when compared to the core tennant of Christianity, no one in middle earth is expected to (or even can) look to a divine source for remission or forgiveness for their sins. There are some echos of an idea of inhereted "sins" though it is much more of the Jewish idea of "sin" than the Christian. EG: not a taint that must be removed or forgiven in order to acheive a greater afterlife but instead merely a tendency to get oneself in trouble in the here and now. And the way the characters deal with this tendency is not based on seeking forgiveness from an outside entity but finding the willpower and wisdom to resist it.

I wonder how Jackson's gonna work his new Bilbo. Will he pull a Lucas and re-edit Fellowship of the Ring to replace Ian Holm with Martin Freeman in the Riddle scene? I don't think so, but it seems he, Cameron and Lucas all drink the same Kool-Aid at various times.

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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular

I wonder how Jackson's gonna work his new Bilbo. Will he pull a Lucas and re-edit Fellowship of the Ring to replace Ian Holm with Martin Freeman in the Riddle scene? I don't think so, but it seems he, Cameron and Lucas all drink the same Kool-Aid at various times.

does there need to be any change? The bilbo in The Hobbit is like 80 years younger than the one in LOTR. That can explain away a lot of physical differences.

I wonder how Jackson's gonna work his new Bilbo. Will he pull a Lucas and re-edit Fellowship of the Ring to replace Ian Holm with Martin Freeman in the Riddle scene? I don't think so, but it seems he, Cameron and Lucas all drink the same Kool-Aid at various times.

does there need to be any change? The bilbo in The Hobbit is like 80 years younger than the one in LOTR. That can explain away a lot of physical differences.

There's a scene in Fellowship with Ian Holm youngin'd up to find the ring.

I don't think the original film is going to be changed, really, and I'll give exactly as big a shit if it does happen as I did about ROTJ.

I wonder how Jackson's gonna work his new Bilbo. Will he pull a Lucas and re-edit Fellowship of the Ring to replace Ian Holm with Martin Freeman in the Riddle scene? I don't think so, but it seems he, Cameron and Lucas all drink the same Kool-Aid at various times.

does there need to be any change? The bilbo in The Hobbit is like 80 years younger than the one in LOTR. That can explain away a lot of physical differences.

I'm talking about Galadriel's little intro speech. One of the montage clips is Bilbo first finding the ring.

Tinkering with past work seems to be a big thing these days, and it's not inconceivable to see New Line wanting money for the special edition release of the discs again.

LotR is informed by a Christian view of the world, especially morality, and plays with different ideas of the nature of evil, the nature of the divine, etc.

Narnia has Jesus show up as a talking lion.

There is a difference in approach and subtility.

actually it is in terms of morality that I see some of the biggest differences.

In LOTR, to be moral is to exercise wisdom. To use ones own powers (great or small) as best as ones own judgement allows.

In Christianity, to be moral is to accept Jesus as ones savior and to follow the commandments of scripture because of their source of divine inspiration.

That isn't really very accurate.

Yeah, accepting Jesus as your savior makes you Christian, not exactly moral, although that is expected to follow. Being moral is exactly what most people would normally think of it as. Doing the right thing and helping others. Saying that in TLOR, using your powers the best your own judgment allows means Sauron was being moral. He used his powers the best way his judgment allowed. Right?

Well, LOTR is more varied than just "the moral is wisdom" because it also has sacrifice, destiny, moving beyond your comfort zone, redemption, good v evil, rebirth, death, etc etc etc

Narnia is much simpler and does suffer from its dogmatic connections.

Through our (mostly) western european lens, christianity is how most of us get a lot of those values sent to us, but it can also be found in pretty much every mythology on the planet.

It's sort of why the term Judeo-Christian values is kind of a red herring.

But, to ignore Tolkein's religious influence is to be a silly goose. The fact that Lewis' was stronger does not negate Tolkein's.

that's just the thing though. I've heard people try and do a hand-wavy kind of stand-back-and-squint to try and claim that in some way they can never put into specifics there is some Christian things in LOTR.

I could totally be convinced of that. If they could ever give any specific examples from the actual books.

I wonder how Jackson's gonna work his new Bilbo. Will he pull a Lucas and re-edit Fellowship of the Ring to replace Ian Holm with Martin Freeman in the Riddle scene? I don't think so, but it seems he, Cameron and Lucas all drink the same Kool-Aid at various times.

does there need to be any change? The bilbo in The Hobbit is like 80 years younger than the one in LOTR. That can explain away a lot of physical differences.

I'm talking about Galadriel's little intro speech. One of the montage clips is Bilbo first finding the ring.

Tinkering with past work seems to be a big thing these days, and it's not inconceivable to see New Line wanting money for the special edition release of the discs again.

I wonder how Jackson's gonna work his new Bilbo. Will he pull a Lucas and re-edit Fellowship of the Ring to replace Ian Holm with Martin Freeman in the Riddle scene? I don't think so, but it seems he, Cameron and Lucas all drink the same Kool-Aid at various times.

does there need to be any change? The bilbo in The Hobbit is like 80 years younger than the one in LOTR. That can explain away a lot of physical differences.

I'm talking about Galadriel's little intro speech. One of the montage clips is Bilbo first finding the ring.

Tinkering with past work seems to be a big thing these days, and it's not inconceivable to see New Line wanting money for the special edition release of the discs again.

oh yeah forgot about that bit. eh, it's no big thing.

I agree. But then I also thought Sebastian Shaw showing up at the end of RotJ was the way things should be.

Sometimes directors feel differently.

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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular

Well, LOTR is more varied than just "the moral is wisdom" because it also has sacrifice, destiny, moving beyond your comfort zone, redemption, good v evil, rebirth, death, etc etc etc

Narnia is much simpler and does suffer from its dogmatic connections.

Through our (mostly) western european lens, christianity is how most of us get a lot of those values sent to us, but it can also be found in pretty much every mythology on the planet.

It's sort of why the term Judeo-Christian values is kind of a red herring.

But, to ignore Tolkein's religious influence is to be a silly goose. The fact that Lewis' was stronger does not negate Tolkein's.

that's just the thing though. I've heard people try and do a hand-wavy kind of stand-back-and-squint to try and claim that in some way they can never put into specifics there is some Christian things in LOTR.

I could totally be convinced of that. If they could ever give any specific examples from the actual books.

*The Ring as burden
*Reward for work done by being allowed to join the chosen in "heaven" (greyhavens)
*Pretty much the entirety of Morgoth's story and Music of the Ainur (technically not LOTR, but in universe)
*Sacrifice and Rebirth

There are a few, I'm sure there are others but I've not read or watched LOTR lately.

Like I said above, this isn't specifically Judeo-Christian, but that argument is toothless in our society.

I wonder how Jackson's gonna work his new Bilbo. Will he pull a Lucas and re-edit Fellowship of the Ring to replace Ian Holm with Martin Freeman in the Riddle scene? I don't think so, but it seems he, Cameron and Lucas all drink the same Kool-Aid at various times.

Eh, I can see Jackson and Cameron drinking the same Kool-Aid, but Lucas seem to have his own brand of crazy.

Jackson and Cameron are all about pushing new technolgy for the future of filmmaking. Lucas is all about using the technology available to continually hash and rehash his movies over and over again, trying to achieve his perfect vision.

LotR is informed by a Christian view of the world, especially morality, and plays with different ideas of the nature of evil, the nature of the divine, etc.

Narnia has Jesus show up as a talking lion.

There is a difference in approach and subtility.

actually it is in terms of morality that I see some of the biggest differences.

In LOTR, to be moral is to exercise wisdom. To use ones own powers (great or small) as best as ones own judgement allows.

In Christianity, to be moral is to accept Jesus as ones savior and to follow the commandments of scripture because of their source of divine inspiration.

That isn't really very accurate.

Yeah, accepting Jesus as your savior makes you Christian, not exactly moral, although that is expected to follow. Being moral is exactly what most people would normally think of it as. Doing the right thing and helping others. Saying that in TLOR, using your powers the best your own judgment allows means Sauron was being moral. He used his powers the best way his judgment allowed. Right?

Ok, I was overly vauge there. I was trying to draw a contrast between the idea of Wisdom in LOTR being something arrived at through ones own will and the Christian idea of forgiveness of sin only being possible through the outside intervention from the divine.

There are some good bits about how Sauron came to evil. At council at Rivendell they mention that even Sauron was not evil in the begining. That idea is expanded upon in the Silmarillion and especially in letter 131 which is printed with more recent editions of that book.

LotR is informed by a Christian view of the world, especially morality, and plays with different ideas of the nature of evil, the nature of the divine, etc.

Narnia has Jesus show up as a talking lion.

There is a difference in approach and subtility.

actually it is in terms of morality that I see some of the biggest differences.

In LOTR, to be moral is to exercise wisdom. To use ones own powers (great or small) as best as ones own judgement allows.

In Christianity, to be moral is to accept Jesus as ones savior and to follow the commandments of scripture because of their source of divine inspiration.

That isn't really very accurate.

Yeah, accepting Jesus as your savior makes you Christian, not exactly moral, although that is expected to follow. Being moral is exactly what most people would normally think of it as. Doing the right thing and helping others. Saying that in TLOR, using your powers the best your own judgment allows means Sauron was being moral. He used his powers the best way his judgment allowed. Right?

Ok, I was overly vauge there. I was trying to draw a contrast between the idea of Wisdom in LOTR being something arrived at through ones own will and the Christian idea of forgiveness of sin only being possible through the outside intervention from the divine.

There are some good bits about how Sauron came to evil. At council at Rivendell they mention that even Sauron was not evil in the begining. That idea is expanded upon in the Silmarillion and especially in letter 131 which is printed with more recent editions of that book.

In Christian thought (outside of those who buy into the doctrine of the elect, which is really more of a puritan thing), the idea is that you, through wisdom, come into salvation through making a choice.

Also The Fall of a former angel into a demon is really bog standard Paradise Lost (Melkor and Sauron both fall into this little trap).

I'm not saying that LOTR is allegory, that'd be goosey, but there are shades of Judeo-Christianity in there, though it is admittedly more based in Norse mythology of course.

LotR is informed by a Christian view of the world, especially morality, and plays with different ideas of the nature of evil, the nature of the divine, etc.

Narnia has Jesus show up as a talking lion.

There is a difference in approach and subtility.

actually it is in terms of morality that I see some of the biggest differences.

In LOTR, to be moral is to exercise wisdom. To use ones own powers (great or small) as best as ones own judgement allows.

In Christianity, to be moral is to accept Jesus as ones savior and to follow the commandments of scripture because of their source of divine inspiration.

That isn't really very accurate.

Yeah, accepting Jesus as your savior makes you Christian, not exactly moral, although that is expected to follow. Being moral is exactly what most people would normally think of it as. Doing the right thing and helping others. Saying that in TLOR, using your powers the best your own judgment allows means Sauron was being moral. He used his powers the best way his judgment allowed. Right?

Ok, I was overly vauge there. I was trying to draw a contrast between the idea of Wisdom in LOTR being something arrived at through ones own will and the Christian idea of forgiveness of sin only being possible through the outside intervention from the divine.

There are some good bits about how Sauron came to evil. At council at Rivendell they mention that even Sauron was not evil in the begining. That idea is expanded upon in the Silmarillion and especially in letter 131 which is printed with more recent editions of that book.

In Christian thought (outside of those who buy into the doctrine of the elect, which is really more of a puritan thing), the idea is that you, through wisdom, come into salvation through making a choice.

Also The Fall of a former angel into a demon is really bog standard Paradise Lost (Melkor and Sauron both fall into this little trap).

I'm not saying that LOTR is allegory, that'd be goosey, but there are shades of Judeo-Christianity in there, though it is admittedly more based in Norse mythology of course.

well that's the thing, the bits that sound at-first similiar (and the fall of mogroth is the best example. even though it is similiar to a much later Christian tradition which is not found in the bible) you can find them to be just as similiar to other non-Christian traditions which Tolkien explicitly wrote about being influenced by.

from letter 131 (linked above, also found in newer editions of Silmarillion as a preface)

In the cosmogony there is a fall: a fall of Angels we should say. Though quite different in form,
of course, to that of Christian myth. These tales are 'new', they are not directly derived from other
myths and legends, but they must inevitably contain a large measure of ancient wide-spread motives
or elements. After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed
present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes
of this kind were discovered and must always reappear. There cannot be any 'story' without a fall –
all stories are ultimately about the fall – at least not for human minds as we know them and have
them.

LotR is informed by a Christian view of the world, especially morality, and plays with different ideas of the nature of evil, the nature of the divine, etc.

Narnia has Jesus show up as a talking lion.

There is a difference in approach and subtility.

actually it is in terms of morality that I see some of the biggest differences.

In LOTR, to be moral is to exercise wisdom. To use ones own powers (great or small) as best as ones own judgement allows.

In Christianity, to be moral is to accept Jesus as ones savior and to follow the commandments of scripture because of their source of divine inspiration.

That isn't really very accurate.

Yeah, accepting Jesus as your savior makes you Christian, not exactly moral, although that is expected to follow. Being moral is exactly what most people would normally think of it as. Doing the right thing and helping others. Saying that in TLOR, using your powers the best your own judgment allows means Sauron was being moral. He used his powers the best way his judgment allowed. Right?

Ok, I was overly vauge there. I was trying to draw a contrast between the idea of Wisdom in LOTR being something arrived at through ones own will and the Christian idea of forgiveness of sin only being possible through the outside intervention from the divine.

There are some good bits about how Sauron came to evil. At council at Rivendell they mention that even Sauron was not evil in the begining. That idea is expanded upon in the Silmarillion and especially in letter 131 which is printed with more recent editions of that book.

In Christian thought (outside of those who buy into the doctrine of the elect, which is really more of a puritan thing), the idea is that you, through wisdom, come into salvation through making a choice.

Also The Fall of a former angel into a demon is really bog standard Paradise Lost (Melkor and Sauron both fall into this little trap).

I'm not saying that LOTR is allegory, that'd be goosey, but there are shades of Judeo-Christianity in there, though it is admittedly more based in Norse mythology of course.

well that's the thing, the bits that sound at-first similiar (and the fall of mogroth is the best example. even though it is similiar to a much later Christian tradition which is not found in the bible) you can find them to be just as similiar to other non-Christian traditions which Tolkien explicitly wrote about being influenced by.

from letter 131 (linked above, also found in newer editions of Silmarillion as a preface)

In the cosmogony there is a fall: a fall of Angels we should say. Though quite different in form,
of course, to that of Christian myth. These tales are 'new', they are not directly derived from other
myths and legends, but they must inevitably contain a large measure of ancient wide-spread motives
or elements. After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed
present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes
of this kind were discovered and must always reappear. There cannot be any 'story' without a fall –
all stories are ultimately about the fall – at least not for human minds as we know them and have
them.

And indeed that's my point. It was influenced by the full breadth of Tolkien's knowledge of mythology. Which is why it's a richer story than Narnia. But it still started in the Christian myth and in our culture that's the lens we see it through.

I've always thought it was fascinating that there's a bit of a Manichean vibe in the LotR, and particularly in the Silmarillion. It's not a perfect mapping by any means, because Eru still makes Arda via the Valar and Maiar, but it's interesting that Arda is pretty much irreparably corrupted by Melkor right at the beginning of things. Middle-Earth is beautiful and wondrous, but inherently flawed (IIRC, Eru will eventually blow the whole thing up and start over, probably with the help of Men). This is quite a bit different than the current bog-standard Christian idea of the quality of Creation.