God I remember when you would get to STV for the first time and 5 minutes in you were involved in a huge pvp battle for hours and lvling was just over at that point. That's when I learned having alts was a good thing, lol. Or the run from Wetlands to SM and all the ganking up to there, that run was like an hour or so because of all the crap you had to go through. You would have your 60 power lvling you say "don't forget this flight point and don't forget this flight point"

In other words, the community is dead. Relations between guilds used to be so close that everyone knew every guild leader, who had recently left/joined a guild, which guilds had downed what bosses, etc. Guilds would actually cooperate and help each other out with things like world bosses or crafting Ragnaros.

And there most definitely was a very strong PvP community in vanilla. The same people were always in TM/SS or out patrolling high level zones like Eastern Plaguelands. Once BGs were released, the PvP community only got larger and stronger. There were no cross-realm BGs and you actually had to go to the BG entrance to queue. This not only created a great opportunity for world PvP, it also gathered the PvPers of your own faction in one place and then pitted you against familiar enemies every game. You got to know who you were fighting with AND against.

I keep seeing people like you making up excuses and trying to claim a bunch of loosely associated cliques counts as a "community". The rationalization is always the same: 'It's still there! You just have to look for it... in a remote, dusty corner... under a barrel... on a deserted island. I know, it sounds like it's not there, but it totally is if you look hard enough!

Uh huh, nice try. I'm not buying it. What you're calling a "community" is only a shadow of what existed in vanilla, nothing but a sad reminder of how great the community once was.

The community most definitely isn't dead. The population that plays WoW has gotten way larger over the years, so sometimes it's difficult to know EVERYONE. I can imagine in low-pop servers you might know everyone good on the server (but there probably isn't much raiding going on), but in high-pop servers there will be so many people raiding that you can't possibly know ALL of them.

While it's true guilds used to help each other out more, the raiding scene is a lot more competitive than it was in (early) vanilla. These days, guilds have got to look out for their own people. With world bosses, people from all over participate, so that doesn't really matter.

What you're talking about is a small, tight-knit community. Once a community becomes as large as it is on my server, it can no longer be tight-knit. You can't know everyone, but you can expect everyone to know you if you're EXCEPTIONALLY good. Just as everyone on the server knows which players and guilds are good.

I don't know what server you're talking about, but my server's community is still very much alive.

The community most definitely isn't dead. The population that plays WoW has gotten way larger over the years, so sometimes it's difficult to know EVERYONE. I can imagine in low-pop servers you might know everyone good on the server (but there probably isn't much raiding going on), but in high-pop servers there will be so many people raiding that you can't possibly know ALL of them.

While it's true guilds used to help each other out more, the raiding scene is a lot more competitive than it was in (early) vanilla. These days, guilds have got to look out for their own people. With world bosses, people from all over participate, so that doesn't really matter.

What you're talking about is a small, tight-knit community. Once a community becomes as large as it is on my server, it can no longer be tight-knit. You can't know everyone, but you can expect everyone to know you if you're EXCEPTIONALLY good. Just as everyone on the server knows which players and guilds are good.

I don't know what server you're talking about, but my server's community is still very much alive.

Wow, you sure will jump through a lot of mental hoops just to avoid admitting the facts.

The number of servers has grown with the population. Average population per server hasn't changed much, so the argument that there are too many people to have a close-knit community is pure crap. I've been on a medium pop server since day 1. The community has slowly but steadily disintegrated since the end of BC.

Raiding has always been very competitive, but people used to be focused on competing with guilds on their own server. Now, people just check stats on sites like wowprogress.com. Raid competition = still alive. Server competition = dead. One of the guilds on our server is something like #7 in the U.S., but no one gives a shit or talks about anything they do anymore.

"With world bosses, people from all over participate, so that doesn't really matter" That's a great example of why server communities are dead. Guilds don't matter, friends don't matter, reputation doesn't matter. You might as well be playing with a bunch of NPCs -- you probably wouldn't notice the difference since nobody even says "hi" when they join LFD or LFR these days.

Wow, you sure will jump through a lot of mental hoops just to avoid admitting the facts.

The number of servers has grown with the population. Average population per server hasn't changed much, so the argument that there are too many people to have a close-knit community is pure crap. I've been on a medium pop server since day 1. The community has slowly but steadily disintegrated since the end of BC.

Raiding has always been very competitive, but people used to be focused on competing with guilds on their own server. Now, people just check stats on sites like wowprogress.com. Raid competition = still alive. Server competition = dead. One of the guilds on our server is something like #7 in the U.S., but no one gives a shit or talks about anything they do anymore.

"With world bosses, people from all over participate, so that doesn't really matter" That's a great example of why server communities are dead. Guilds don't matter, friends don't matter, reputation doesn't matter. You might as well be playing with a bunch of NPCs -- you probably wouldn't notice the difference since nobody even says "hi" when they join LFD or LFR these days.

No mental hoops here. Just stating what I've observed.

The number of servers have grown, yes, but at the same time, the high pop servers have gotten bigger. The population doesn't distribute itself. More often than not, people will go to a server with more people on it (so they don't get stuck on a dead realm).

I don't know about your server, but on mine, guild competition is still quite active. Many guilds race to get server first (though usually Huge in Japan takes it anyway). People would use wowprogress sure, but a lot of the time it's to check their progression against other guilds. For instance, I often see people say what rank their guild is on the server when they're recruit spamming.

World bosses are server-specific. They haven't made Pandaria cross-realm yet (and I hope they never do, or at least until the next expansion). It's not like you'll get invited to kill a world boss just by being in the area. You have to actually ASK for an invite. And if you act like an ass, I've seen so many times where the raid leader would just kick the guy from the group, and we'd kill the world boss and he'd still be there in general asking for an invite.

Exactly, WoW was once like a high-end restaurant: serving quality content catered to a dedicated playerbase. Now, it's McDonald's: serving convenient junk to a bunch of fickle crybabies.

"It takes me too long to get to the BG queue, waaaaah. It takes me too long to find groups, waaaaaah. Running everywhere on ground mounts takes too long, waaaah. I can't see raids because I'm a notorious asshat and no guilds will take me, waaaah."

Blizzard gave in to the whiners, and everyone else is paying the price now. That's why these threads keep popping up everywhere; the Blizz forums, MMO-Champ, Arena Junkies. Everywhere you go, people who played during vanilla are lamenting the death of server communities. Server forums still exist, but no one uses them. They're filled with empty recruitment threads.

Er wow always catered to the casual gamer market. I came from UO and that game was anything but casual friendly in terms of leveling

LFD-LFR system has improved the game and allowed people to get into raids more so than ever before. Thats a good thing. I think with your attitude to the reasons why people disliked certain features in the game theres no point in discussing it. I do admit some things have impacted the community in some ways but players have to take some responsibility and work on it them selves. Theres just more features in the game than ever before now and thus more for people to do.

Communities are not as random as people think. It's the game design that forms the community.

Yes I totally agree with this. I don't understand how people can think the "community" is to blame for destroying itself. Blizzard is the one controlling the communities indirectly by adding/removing services and features to the game.

Er wow always catered to the casual gamer market. I came from UO and that game was anything but casual friendly in terms of leveling

LFD-LFR system has improved the game and allowed people to get into raids more so than ever before. Thats a good thing. I think with your attitude to the reasons why people disliked certain features in the game theres no point in discussing it. I do admit some things have impacted the community in some ways but players have to take some responsibility and work on it them selves. Theres just more features in the game than ever before now and thus more for people to do.

LFR/LFD were definitely NOT improvements. Community destroyers is all they are.

LFR/LFD were definitely NOT improvements. Community destroyers is all they are.

Considering my social experience hasn't changed AT ALL since Vanilla, I would say the convenience added and zero negative aspects brought to my WoW experience by those features makes them nothing but beneficial.

Considering my social experience hasn't changed AT ALL since Vanilla, I would say the convenience added and zero negative aspects brought to my WoW experience by those features makes them nothing but beneficial.

I agree they gave huge benefits. I love being able to quest or farm etc and be in a queue for a raid and simply click accept and my raid is all formed for me. Dungeon finders not the same as I get instant invites :P but I love both.

Considering my social experience hasn't changed AT ALL since Vanilla, I would say the convenience added and zero negative aspects brought to my WoW experience by those features makes them nothing but beneficial.

If that's the case, then you barely have social experience in WoW.

It ain’t wise to poke a warrior so much, sonny. We just might poke ya back.

LFR/LFD were definitely NOT improvements. Community destroyers is all they are.

Because standing around in trade for two hours spamming for a pug to finish off a group of friends or guildies was just such a paragon of good community, right?

Most people who complain that Vanilla was better didn't actually play in it, I suspect. LFD and LFR have their bad points....actually, no, they don't. I don't miss any of the things surrounding the pre-LFD days.

Nothing stops you from getting together a group the old-fashioned way. You expect too much of LFD and LFR.

Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

- Thucydides

There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.

Because standing around in trade for two hours spamming for a pug to finish off a group of friends or guildies was just such a paragon of good community, right?

No, that's just you being an idiot. You could've been using your brain and doing it right, you know, collecting a friends list full of people that want to play with you and getting into other people's lists. But instead you want to be antisocial, in an MMO, and want a button that teleports random players that might as well be NPCs into a dungeon with you.

Most people who complain that Vanilla was better didn't actually play in it, I suspect. LFD and LFR have their bad points....actually, no, they don't. I don't miss any of the things surrounding the pre-LFD days.

I played in vanilla, and I can't think of anything good in LFD/LFR. They're completely mindless, uninteresting additions that destroy community and enjoyment from a game that's supposed to be a social experience. If making friends is so hard for you, perhaps you should look into single player games instead of demanding an MMO be changed into one?

Nothing stops you from getting together a group the old-fashioned way.

No, that's just you being an idiot. You could've been using your brain and doing it right, you know, collecting a friends list full of people that want to play with you and getting into other people's lists. But instead you want to be antisocial, in an MMO, and want a button that teleports random players that might as well be NPCs into a dungeon with you.

I did, it's called a guild. The fact remains that LFD is a useful tool for filling in the gaps; something which has never been a 'social' experience.

I played in vanilla, and I can't think of anything good in LFD/LFR. They're completely mindless, uninteresting additions that destroy community and enjoyment from a game that's supposed to be a social experience. If making friends is so hard for you, perhaps you should look into single player games instead of demanding an MMO be changed into one?

You're expecting too much from tools designed to be convenience enhancers; they accomplish that goal, nothing more is required. As I said, what both tools replaced was not a social experience, ever.

Yeah, go ahead and try.

Sounds like I am not the one with problems making friends.

Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

- Thucydides

There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.

I did, it's called a guild. The fact remains that LFD is a useful tool for filling in the gaps; something which has never been a 'social' experience.

Filling gaps was a social experience, you filled them with friends of friends. LFD is not a gap filling tool anyway, that's a complete distortion. LFD is used as a complete replacement for the way groups used to be assembled. It turned WoW into a glorified 3D chat room where you occasionally teleport to minigames and back. It no longer feels like a "World" of Warcraft where you build friendships and alliances that last a long time. Because of LFD.

You're expecting too much from tools designed to be convenience enhancers; they accomplish that goal, nothing more is required. As I said, what both tools replaced was not a social experience, ever.

They might've been designed as such, I don't think the designers set out to destroy the realm communities and the social feel that made WoW great. Unfortunately it turned out completely differently.

Sounds like I am not the one with problems making friends.

Why would I spend time building a group, or join someone else's group, when I can get the same rewards much more easily? I know that if building the group was the only way to do it I would do it, and I would enjoy the game much more for it, but in the current system I would feel like a complete idiot for trying to do things in a less efficient way.

Filling gaps was a social experience, you filled them with friends of friends. LFD is not a gap filling tool anyway, that's a complete distortion. LFD is used as a complete replacement for the way groups used to be assembled. It turned WoW into a glorified 3D chat room where you occasionally teleport to minigames and back. It doesn't feel like a "World" of Warcraft anymore. Because of LFD.

That still occurs, quite frequently in my experience, especially thanks to RealID.

Because it's impossible to get a guild group of four people but need a fifth, so they resort to LFD. Right. The way groups 'used' to be assembled has changed very little save for the trade spamming aspect of it.

They might've been designed as such, I don't think the designers set out to destroy the realm communities and the social feel that made WoW great. Unfortunately it turned out completely differently.

Which is your opinion, and not necessarily a correct one at that. What destroyed the community was the fact that it grew so explosively.

Why would I spend time building a group, or join someone else's group, when I can get the same rewards much more easily? I know that if building the group was the only way to do it I would do it, and I would enjoy the game much more for it, but in the current system I would feel like a complete idiot for trying to do things in a less efficient way.

Because, if as you say the previous method resulted in more 'social interaction', which is what you desire - why would you not resort to that method?

The only people LFD and LFR impacted negatively, by your argument, are the guildless.

Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

- Thucydides

There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.

One question for everyone...
If everyone was such good friends, then did everyone apparently abandon each other as soon as they could? (Assuming what most people say is true, which it isn't)

I've been playing WoW since about 5/6 months into Vanilla and I get on with and still talk to the same people on the server that I did back then. Sure, some have since stopped playing and some have moved to other servers to be with real life friends. But, I still talk to a great many of my server neighbors.

I find it amusing that people blame things like LFR or LFD when in actual fact, it's their own fault that they seem unable to just spark a conversation with others.