Olekoima wrote:The J-10 right? Well it is a good fighter although untested yet. Who knows how it is likely to fare in combat. Further more it looks like it is not ready for export yet although they are working on this. First export version likely in 2015 and Pakistan is first on line. Others might have to wait a little longer. Many countries seem interested though.

Crane no play station hapa.. the J-10 trash the J-11A 5:1 its all over the internet .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Airframe

@jasiri several dog fights were conducted some rumored as high as 13:1 and all on the rudimental version of the J-10 the “A” series. The ‘B’ aka Fc-20/J-10B will get better at it.its ability to perform the cobra maneuver using its delta-canard configuration with vertical stabilizers makes it more mechanical reliable compared to the swivel engine joints of the J-11/Su30 which runs at confined service hours. on the 5:1 and why its consider to be its standard record against the flanker, is that the Chinese performed the fighters using only two pilots that had similar flying hour and could fly both jets. The dogfight was conducted in a space of one week and the pilots switched plane on every alternate fights totaling to 6 (a fighter a day ) which resulted to a 5:1 in favor of the Vigorous Dragon.

]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGWnzaWjP-c0:33 Chinese cobra; a combination of the ‘S’ cobra and the backflip maneuver (without thrust vectors) similar to the F-22.1:41 standard cobra although not we executed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUdt6ZSWUsI1:57 the F-22 on the cobra-backflip maneuver. No one does it better then the raptor.

Crane no play station hapa.. the J-10 trash the J-11A 5:1 its all over the internet .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Airframe

@jasiri several dog fights were conducted some rumored as high as 13:1 and all on the rudimental version of the J-10 the “A” series. The ‘B’ aka Fc-20/J-10B will get better at it.its ability to perform the cobra maneuver using its delta-canard configuration with vertical stabilizers makes it more mechanical reliable compared to the swivel engine joints of the J-11/Su30 which runs at confined service hours. on the 5:1 and why its consider to be its standard record against the flanker, is that the Chinese performed the fighters using only two pilots that had similar flying hour and could fly both jets. The dogfight was conducted in a space of one week and the pilots switched plane on every alternate fights totaling to 6 (a fighter a day ) which resulted to a 5:1 in favor of the Vigorous Dragon.

@Risasihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGWnzaWjP-c at the Tangshan Airshow Nov 2011The pilot is saying that: the weather conditions, especially wind, were very unfavourable but the pilots who were well-trained were still able to pull the extraordinary maneuvres.

Now a bit of history. Tangshan: The Deadliest EarthquakeThe city was rebuilt is quick order after being completely obliterated in the deadliest earthquake of the century. At 3:42 a.m. on July 28, 1976, a magnitude 7.8 earthquake hit the sleeping city, situated in Hebei province, northeastern China. The very large earthquake, striking an area where it was totally unexpected, obliterated the city of Tangshan and killed over 240,000 people - making it the deadliest earthquake of the twentieth century.http://history1900s.about.com/od/horribledisasters/a/tangshan.htm

Hahah impressive marketing wars. The French down the F-22 2yres back using the Mirage -2000-9 now the German got their share too.

anyway dogfights are trickery and the out comes are similar to a coin tossed esp. if both pilots have a solid training back ground.

The article is spot on i.e when it comes to BvR (beyond visual range engagement) the F-22 is at its best and the best based on its invisibility and good missile, but WvR (within visual range) “merge” where stealth losses value the pilots depend on their stamina ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK8U8RZyzsM&feature=related ), gun, aircraft maneuverability and sight… I would say mmmmh interesting cause at that point the F-22 is as good as the Typhoon; both can engage in super cruise and both pilots wear a specialized G-suit which means both pilots can sustain higher G’s and the story becomes interesting .

Hahah impressive marketing wars. The French down the F-22 2yres back using the Mirage -2000-9 now the German got their share too.

anyway dogfights are trickery and the out comes are similar to a coin tossed esp. if both pilots have a solid training back ground.

The article is spot on i.e when it comes to BvR (beyond visual range engagement) the F-22 is at its best and the best based on its invisibility and good missile, but WvR (within visual range) “merge” where stealth losses value the pilots depend on their stamina gun, aircraft maneuverability and sight… I would say mmmmh interesting cause at that point the F-22 is as good as the Typhoon; both can engage in super cruise and both pilots wear a specialized G-suit which means both pilots can sustain higher G’s and the story becomes interesting .

@Risasi, Yes it seems the F-22 was optimized for BVR engagements. But as a succesor to the F-14 tomcats BVR missile the RIM-54(now retired), the AMRAAM's concept isn't fully actualized. Even the article above states that the missile does not operate at the planes optimal altitude because it cannot support cold temperatures upon launch. The AMRAAM carried by the F-22 is amodification of the ones that saw actual service under the wings of the F-15s that scored 9-9 over Iraq. The ones carried by F-22s are smaller, able to fit within internal weapon bays, unlike the standard wing hard-point placements.

Now compared with its best oponent - a plane optimized for BVR engagements - is the Russian Mig-31. This relic was the Soviet answer to the F-14. But now the plane has undergone a serious overhaul...and has the most powerful frontal hemisphere radar ever equipped on a plane. This radar can detect stealth at stand-off ranges. It is designed to catch the SR-71 Black Bird, stealth, tomahawks and AWACS bana.

Recently, the ruskies have ugraded the Mig-31s BVR missile AA-9 to the R-37M. This missile is a game changer because it travels the full distance of its powerful radar, and at Mach 4.5.The russkies know they don't need stealth in BVR engagements, just a stealth capable radar and missile.

Both the F-22 and Mig-31 will do poorly in close encounters and so ideally their modus operandi is to fire (at stand-off) and scoot.

Haven't you wondered why amid all the hype about sukhoi's the mig-31 is still being retained and upgraded?

does anyone know at what range KDF F5 fighters radar is effective? The Ugandan SU 30s can detect at a range greater than 300km. Which means if all 6 of their jets were to go against all of Kenyas F5s while armed with BVR missiles like the R77 they can nearly wipe out all of Kenyas jets before they even know whats going on. Also is it true the F5 has an engine that was designed for a missile?

The F5E radar is fairly advanced but not highly advanced like its cousin F5 II tiger. F5E/EM was and is still used by USAF as a Tac fighter/trainer aircraft for US F14 pilots with some of the variants (F5A,F5B..etc) developed outside the US. Without a shadow of a doubt the Sukhoi MKi30 has advanced capabilities only likened and imagined of the F15Eagle/16....... so I bet the Sukhois can beat F5EM hands down. But F5E, lacks accurate Low-level-bombing capabilties simmilar to F-15E or Sukhoi Mki-30.

Batian wrote:The F5E radar is fairly advanced but not highly advanced like its cousin F5 II tiger. F5E/EM was and is still used by USAF as a Tac fighter/trainer aircraft for US F14 pilots with some of the variants (F5A,F5B..etc) developed outside the US. Without a shadow of a doubt the Sukhoi MKi30 has advanced capabilities only likened and imagined of the F15Eagle/16....... so I bet the Sukhois can beat F5EM hands down. But F5E, lacks accurate Low-level-bombing capabilties simmilar to F-15E or Sukhoi Mki-30.

Can we discuss the Sukhois plainly as SU-30s without the 'Ugandan' prefix, please? Plus, they are SU-30MK2 not MKI, the Indian version. We have to exercise restraint within these pages - there are lots of journalists in the media that use this site as a reference point, believe you me.

Don't bet your mama on the BVR working as advertised. Recently, in mock dogfights between German pilots flying Typhoon jets and US pilots flying the F-22, the Germans figured out how to beat the vaunted F-22 with all its BVR and 'stealth' capabilities. I would rather put my hopes in the SU-30's other strengths, like being able to track, lock-on and engage more than five enemy fighters at the same time in close quarter dogfights.

@deconstructor, welcome aboard, buddy. Just remember to reconstruct every time you are done deconstructing

deconstructor wrote:does anyone know at what range KDF F5 fighters radar is effective? The Ugandan SU 30s can detect at a range greater than 300km. Which means if all 6 of their jets were to go against all of Kenyas F5s while armed with BVR missiles like the R77 they can nearly wipe out all of Kenyas jets before they even know whats going on. Also is it true the F5 has an engine that was designed for a missile?

I believe the range against a 5sqm target is about 180km if that. I am not sure what the RCS of the F-5s should be but ALL BEING well, I believe the MK2s will expect maybe 150km. That is looking up. If on KAF turf, the pilots will have better SA from ground based systems. They will likely know the terrain like the bac of their hand and fly very low, so that 150km can be down to 120/120km since the MKs will be in look-down. ... terrain musking which the UPDF will be challenged to use considering the dangers of unfamiliar terrain and the 3 chopper crashes highlights the dangers. Add KAF jamming assets, and degrade that range even further. Also note that as soon as the MK2s switch on their radars, the F-5s RWRs will pick and know they are there. ... ... Add KDF ground based defenses. ... ... it will be a big task for the UPDF and far from a clean sweep.

The statistics for BVR weapons are disappointing. 20% kill rate so far = 5 missiles for every kill. most targets were WVR and some had faulty radar and RWRs. I.e. Kill rates would be even less for a fully serviceable opponent. I.e. there is a very high probability that the fight will end up WVR. Then the BVR missiles themselve can be jammed too once launched.

There is a very good reason countries like India (MMRCA) turned down the F-16I and the F-18Es for lack of manoeuvrability - they see dogfights/SRAAMs being around for a decade or two AT LEAST. The high energy high agility of the Euro-canards and the F-22 points to this too. Apparently the T-50 chose to maintain manoeuvrability and sacrificed VLO.

The russkies know they don't need stealth in BVR engagements, just a stealth capable radar and missile

Exactly my argument with some pilot. If u have a radar that can detect Stealth then u negate the very advantage that the enemy holds over u, u then reduce his plane to a mere BVR capable 4.5 gen fighter.Americans thrive more on media intimidation (psych wars) than on actual war record. If u soberly disect the F-22 u realise that in a fair fight (which never happens anyway) the Raptor can be brought down by a very determined J-20 pilot,let alone a T-50 PAK-FA. No 1. The Raptor has a very serious problem. How does a fighter pilot get Hypoxia at 14500ft just like a prop pilot?? If the OBOGS can not generate enough oxygen at 14,5 in straight and level no stress flying, can it do the same at even 8000 ft in a high G combat maneuver? This is in itself the number 1 threat to raptor drivers.2. What is the use of claiming u r BVR capable when ua missiles cant fire at altitude, n when the do can't kill unless u fire a salvo? After u fire all ua standoff missiles what next?3. Russians have an AWACS class radar on a fighter, meaning the chinese are only a year away (if not there already) from having one, how then does stealth help here? From a trend that has been emerging, should the Americans attempt to use their raptors i Iran then the IRIAF will have a decent supply of these stealth busting radars..hence the question, What advantage does this stealth hold? Tukaribiane tu we tango in the good old dogfight.@Batian,

tempest wrote:I believe the range against a 5sqm target is about 180km if that. I am not sure what the RCS of the F-5s should be but ALL BEING well, I believe the MK2s will expect maybe 150km. That is looking up. If on KAF turf, the pilots will have better SA from ground based systems. They will likely know the terrain like the bac of their hand and fly very low, so that 150km can be down to 120/120km since the MKs will be in look-down. ... terrain musking which the UPDF will be challenged to use considering the dangers of unfamiliar terrain and the 3 chopper crashes highlights the dangers. Add KAF jamming assets, and degrade that range even further. Also note that as soon as the MK2s switch on their radars, the F-5s RWRs will pick and know they are there. ... ... Add KDF ground based defenses. ... ... it will be a big task for the UPDF and far from a clean sweep.

Very good hypothetical situation, with the usual assumption that it's always Uganda Kenya has to look out for. Paint the picture for Ethiopia now. Nyi nagopa moto mkishahao majivu pia nachoma.

tempest wrote:I believe the range against a 5sqm target is about 180km if that. I am not sure what the RCS of the F-5s should be but ALL BEING well, I believe the MK2s will expect maybe 150km. That is looking up. If on KAF turf, the pilots will have better SA from ground based systems. They will likely know the terrain like the bac of their hand and fly very low, so that 150km can be down to 120/120km since the MKs will be in look-down. ... terrain musking which the UPDF will be challenged to use considering the dangers of unfamiliar terrain and the 3 chopper crashes highlights the dangers. Add KAF jamming assets, and degrade that range even further. Also note that as soon as the MK2s switch on their radars, the F-5s RWRs will pick and know they are there. ... ... Add KDF ground based defenses. ... ... it will be a big task for the UPDF and far from a clean sweep.

Very good hypothetical situation, with the usual assumption that it's always Uganda Kenya has to look out for. Paint the picture for Ethiopia now. Nyi nagopa moto mkishahao majivu pia nachoma.

@tempest the SU 30mk2 has the option of carrying wing tip ECM pods which they can use to penetrate areas that are defended. even if their crew were inexperienced and in Kenyas airspace it would be a cake walk for them. the F5 is in a different generation and class. @spatan thanks for the welcome, i said a Uganda vs Kenya scenario because if they bought a defensive jet they would have gotten SU 27s but they got SU 30s which are more inclined to be offence, thats why they have a crew of 2, pilot and WSO.

Spartan wrote: Very good hypothetical situation, with the usual assumption that it's always Uganda Kenya has to look out for. Paint the picture for Ethiopia now. Nyi nagopa moto mkishahao majivu pia nachoma.

Thanks.

The original question was WRT UPDF MK2s.

deconstructor wrote:does anyone know at what range KDF F5 fighters radar is effective? The Ugandan SU 30s can detect at a range greater than 300km. Which means if all 6 of their jets were to go against all of Kenyas F5s while armed with BVR missiles like the R77 they can nearly wipe out all of Kenyas jets before they even know whats going on. Also is it true the F5 has an engine that was designed for a missile?

I believe Ethiopia got the Flanker-Bs, similar to what China received in the 90s. If we go by that then they will be very much inferior to the MK2s. Their radar capability is given below as 70km for 3sqm. The rest of their avionics will be inferior and A2G capability is minimal. .... ... Unless if they have upgraded them since.

Who is attacking and who is defending presents a different story though.

deconstructor wrote:@tempest the SU 30mk2 has the option of carrying wing tip ECM pods which they can use to penetrate areas that are defended. even if their crew were inexperienced and in Kenyas airspace it would be a cake walk for them. the F5 is in a different generation and class. @spatan thanks for the welcome, i said a Uganda vs Kenya scenario because if they bought a defensive jet they would have gotten SU 27s but they got SU 30s which are more inclined to be offence, thats why they have a crew of 2, pilot and WSO.

I give you that ECMs will also degrade KDF systems ... ... I am thinking if they will ever be as good as dedicated ground based EW assets? ... ... I also believe this just says you end up with a merge and WVR as BVR capabilities are erodded.

BVR might have a role as a harrasment weapon i.e. firing at long range, not necessarily to get a kill, but to force the opponent onto their backfoot while you close in and kill WVR. You force the opponent to take evassive action even if the chances that they will get hit are low.

deconstructor wrote:@tempest the SU 30mk2 has the option of carrying wing tip ECM pods which they can use to penetrate areas that are defended. even if their crew were inexperienced and in Kenyas airspace it would be a cake walk for them. the F5 is in a different generation and class. @spatan thanks for the welcome, i said a Uganda vs Kenya scenario because if they bought a defensive jet they would have gotten SU 27s but they got SU 30s which are more inclined to be offence, thats why they have a crew of 2, pilot and WSO.

Deconstructor, that would make work easier for the SAM operators. ECM n Radars r like torches in the dark. While they show u the way the reveal ur position to the enemy in equal meausure. a skilled SAM operator could use this very tech to jus light up his missile, n send it in the direction of the electronic noise then shut down. u suddenly see a missile pop up from nowhere! 6 su-30's against 30 f-5's? the number is pretty overwhelming, rem the f-5 has one of the smallest RCS of any fighter in service today.

@tempest,Ethiopian F-5A, -5E, and -5F (origin Iran) are deemed unservicable, talking of birds that are serviceable and in service it is on record that they discarded them due to lack of servicing , not sure though about their flanker Bs, same status (where is Risasi) as those F5-E acquired by KAF from Jordan.

The AN/APG-67(F) has been developed for retrofitting into Northrop F-5 aircraft and other fighter aircraft. A significant characteristic of the APG-67, stemming from its Modular Survivable Radar (MSR) ancestry, is the choice and layout of circuitry to enable the system to be updated for new technologies as they appear, such as very large-scale integration, without having to redesign the LRUs. Growth features can also be added in this way. In air-to-air missions the system searches for, automatically acquires and tracks targets in both look-up and look-down situations. In its air-to-surface role the radar provides real-beam mapping, high-resolution Doppler beam-sharpened ground-mapping (40:1), and air-to-ground ranging. Variants of the radar can include synthetic aperture imaging. The heart of the processor contains 16 Shark 2106D processors. Twelve perform signal processing functions and the other four perform Hardware I/O, radar mode control and aircraft mission computer interface functions, together with self-test radar processing associated with motion compensation, target tracking, antenna motion control and raster scan output to the cockpit display. The processor integrates raw target data from the antenna so that reliable reports can be established. The unit incorporates a programmable signal processor and its use is considered to be the key to what is claimed to be this unit's exceptional performance. The processor performs a variety of functions, including fast Fourier transformation, moving target indication, pulse compression and motion compensation, and can operate with variable waveforms and bandwidth. The transmitter produces coherent I/J-band radiation from a travelling wave tube and can operate at low, medium and high PRFs, with variable power outputs and pulsewidths. The antenna is a flat plate slotted array with low-sidelobe sensitivity and with Â±60Âº scan in azimuth and elevation. Scan width is selectable and elevation search can be accomplished in 1, 2 or 4 bar modes. The receiver has a low-noise front-end to maximise detection range. The AN/APG-67(F) version for the new aircraft and retrofit market offers a full range of air-to-air capabilities including range-while-search out to 148 km, three air combat modes and single target track. It also provides a complementary set of air-to-ground modes including map, expand, Doppler beam-sharpening, freeze and surface moving target indication and track over ground or rough seas. It consists of three LRUs and incorporates a MIL-STD-1553B database interface and MIL-STD-1750A computer architecture. There is extensive built-in test. Lockheed Martin has collaborated with Geophysical and Environmental Research Corp to develop GSAR, a variant of the AN/APG-67 radar to equip business aircraft for the SAR role. GSAR has a range of 150 km, with swath widths up to 40 km wide. Resolution is reported to be 3 m, improving to 1 m in spotlight mode.