I've done the first pitch of Beginers Steps twice. First to back off Second Last Act. A second time to follow Quits which traverses the wall. 3 star route. Remember getting pumped and thinking if I came off I was going to swing to Lithgow. Great route. Got a bit lost both times on Beginners Steps first pitch. Its second pitches bolts looked a bit ordinary when I was there which was quite a while ago.

All good, particularly Wrapt and Sidetracks
I was gunna fix up Beginner's Steps:add a new first pitch and retro the whole thing. It needs a clean and more importantly, traffic. The top pitch is mega exposed.

Wrapt could have a new first pitch also. And maybe a few more bolts or a full set.

I suspect that you'd need to replace the steel on Sidetracks before you ever ventured onot it, it might be ok or it might be very run out. Great line though

The new anchors on Judas are in a very odd location - not sure why they have been placed where they have. On the slab below the ledge - you can't lower off the route without shredding your ropes and it's uncomfortable place to belay. Plenty of better spots for the anchors...

My vote would be for glue-in hangerless bolts to replace carrots to maintain at least some of the original feel to these routes - would hate for them to become 'Wrapped' with low commitment, and convenience bolting, I'll help if need be . . .
Let alone "Sighed-Tracked" (Athios forbid) . . . Pretty sure Warwick likes his routes to maintain their spice . . .
These routes are held with a certain respect in the way they were climbed, please lets not turn them into over chalked lcd doddles for spurters . . .

Absolutely agree with maintaining the "feel" of the route, so I'll replace the bolts on Sidetracks like for like and not add additional bolts.

I don't agree with the use of glue in carrots though - their day has come and gone as far as I'm concerned - if you have to drill a hole in the rock and place a bolt, then it doesn't make sense to place carrots anymore. If I get to it first, I'll be using rings.

Do Mikl's BS and W - but please don't sanitise them too much . . .
But don't put rings in Sidetracked, it will destroy the feel - That's a Baird route - doubt Warwick would be impressed - Why not try it groundup in it's current state? . . .
And please don't destroy the other routes there - Most of the routes here have a reputation and respect that comes from there current 'adventurous' form . . .
Bold, and dangerous, routes need to be maintained in their original style - not dumbed down for gymbies to make 'consumer classics' (which are neither). . .

Glue in carrots have not 'had their day', they are necessary for routes that don't want to be convenient, uncommitted, and G rated sport clip ups . . .
Also hangerless bolts are needed to maintain the Australianess of some of our crags - Piddington should not end up like Shipley . . . .

Hey Mike, can you check with Warrick regarding the use of rings on his route please or PM me his contact details? I do like to contact the FA prior to rebolting anyone's routes?

Macca - I recently contacted a FA of some classic 80s routes that I plan to rebolt using rings instead of carrots and he agreed that rings are more appropriate today. I'm not going to tell you where they are in case you get any stupid ideas. These routes are bolted - they are not trad lines that are being defaced with bolts and fumbling around with a bolt plate does not make a route "bold" it just makes it old fashioned.

On 29/08/2013 mikllaw wrote:>Becaue one would assume that the bolts are rubbish. Best have someone>else test or replace them if you want to do an onsight.

Some nut-less spurter may automatically assume that, but other more experienced climbers might not agree and may be prepared to make that decision themselves in situ . . .
And if it had carrots replaced with rings it would substantially change the experience towards boring . . .

>? No, they aren't done because they have rubbish bolts and are dirty.>They were never considered bold (apart from the rap-inspected headpoint>route Sidetracks)

They have mostly had 'take care' 'hands' or 'R' ratings - and therefore 'bold' to attempt - I know I tried a few back in the day just not sure which ones . . .
Increasingly it seems anything on carrots is considered 'bold' by gymbies - the fact that they want them all ringbolted before even attempting them is the proof . . .
And some of these spurters don't trust and won't use bomber gear placements, preferring to place rings instead of clipping stonking wires, it's pathetic . . .

On 29/08/2013 mabsydney wrote:>Hey Mike, can you check with Warrick regarding the use of rings on his>route please or PM me his contact details? I do like to contact the FA>prior to rebolting anyone's routes?

Don't bother - I've contacted Warwick already and organised with him to go have a look at the route and replace anything that needs replacing - bolt for bolt in the same places . . .
So please leave Sidetracked alone!

>Macca - I recently contacted a FA of some classic 80s routes that I plan>to rebolt using rings instead of carrots and he agreed that rings are more>appropriate today. I'm not going to tell you where they are in case you>get any stupid ideas. These routes are bolted - they are not trad lines>that are being defaced with bolts and fumbling around with a bolt plate>does not make a route "bold" it just makes it old fashioned.

Wow - thats so impressive! Though it reflects on you, and your 'ethics', more than it does them. I imagine if I had contacted them and told them I was going to use glue-in carrots they would have agreed too.

I don't consider that boltplates make a route bold - even though that would seem to be the opinion of most gymbies these days
I do believe that rings make routes easier - physically, mentally and spiritually . . .

I think a bold route that gets few ascents is far more important than the same route turned it into a safe modern clip up

I'm still very much a fan of a low profile glue in machine style bolt for a range of routes. It'll come down to a route by route judgement. However, for me anything where the 'obviousness' of a line of rings alters the commitment of a route - either when you're on it, or standing down the bottom gearing up for the onsight - I'd prefer to keep it on low profile hex heads.

Climbing at the county on the weekend carrots seemed appropriate for 80 minute hour - you can clip most of them from good stances, but you've got to climb to them before they are obvious. The rings worked on Walking Wounded. I'm not sure I'd have much of an opinion either way for Mindblower as the gear is pretty clear from the ground, but the carrots on Barbarossa definitely added to the experience. It added to the sense of commitment, and the need for mental control that defines this style of climbing - even if it isn't exactly a chop route - and for me that was valuable.

On 29/08/2013 wombly wrote:>I'm still very much a fan of a low profile glue in machine style bolt for>a range of routes. It'll come down to a route by route judgement, but for>me anything where the 'obviousness' of a line of rings alters the commitment>of a route when you're either on it or standing down the bottom gearing>up for the onsight I'd prefer to keep it on low profile hex heads.>>Thus climbing at the county on the weekend carrots seemed appropriate>for 80 minute hour. The rings worked on walking wounded. I'm not sure I'd>have much of an opinion either way for Mindblower as the gear is pretty>clear from the ground, but the carrots on Barbarossa definitely added to>the experience. It added to the sense of commitment, and the need for mental>control that defines this style of climbing - even if it isn't exactly>a chop route - and for me that was valuable.>>My 2c:>>Steep and pumpy thugfest - ring it

I tend to agree with all the above.

>Regularly dogged & redpointed, rings probably make more sense

Depends on other factors like the basic concept of leaving mixed routes with their own integrity.

I dont agree with retroing exixting mixed or trad routes but carrots are history. How does having a ring instead of a carrot make any difference on a mixed route??? Some of the routes Neil and I have established at Pt Perp are mixed with the occasional ring and it makes no difference apart from the fact its modern technology, not bolts out of dads old car wreck!!!

It can make quite a difference - I think the fact that you actually have to 'do something' to make the bolt 'protection' is the main thing.
From that flows all the various physical, mental and spiritual differences . . .
A ring is essentially a fixed protection piece, ready to be clipped; whilst a GMO Carrot is the placement possibility itself needing a bolt plate or wire to make it protection . . .