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Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

For those calling for Vogel to lay into his team (there were a lot of those posts in the last few game threads) - he is.

"The normally mild-mannered coach lost his cool in the locker room at halftime of Tuesday’s loss to Toronto. Then he came unglued after the first quarter Wednesday with his team down 16 points.Vogel ripped into his team so loudly, he could be heard on press row along the baseline."

"Vogel is in a tough situation because he has to toe the line when it comes to criticizing his players. Players like West and George Hill can handle being scrutinized, but the Pacers as a whole are a weak-minded team. You can see it in their body language on the court. Their team morale is the lowest it has been since Jim O’Brien was coach."

Ugh.

Last edited by gummy; 11-16-2012 at 05:10 PM.

"Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

"Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire"Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others." - William Greider

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

For those calling for Vogel to lay into his team (there were a lot of those posts in the last few game threads) - he is.

"The normally mild-mannered coach lost his cool in the locker room at halftime of Tuesday’s loss to Toronto. Then he came unglued after the first quarter Wednesday with his team down 16 points.Vogel ripped into his team so loudly, he could be heard on press row along the baseline."

"Vogel is in a tough situation because he has to toe the line when it comes to criticizing his players. Players like West and George Hill can handle being scrutinized, but the Pacers as a whole are a weak-minded team. You can see it in their body language on the court. Their team morale is the lowest it has been since Jim O’Brien was coach."

Ugh.

Weak minded team.

Man, that hurts.

First time in a long time, I've been happy with the team that was constructed, and now they struggle. I blame the coach.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

. . . Scout No. 1
"They're searching for who should get the ball at the right time. (Coach Frank) Vogel has condensed his offense to only a handful of plays and runs them all the time. You know what's coming. They're easy to defend because you can play everybody straight up without the concern of getting beat. There's only occasional times where Roy Hibbert is going to go off. You know how he's getting the ball, the plays that are coming. They don't strike fear in anybody."

. . . The playbook is too simple and has very little "punish you for attacking too much" type of secondary responses in terms of movement, picks and screens. . .Frank needs to take the next step more than Paul, Roy or George do. I hope he can, but I'm worried that he can't.

Obviously the professional scouts are correct however in defense of Frank here a little I want to say this. . . I'm not saying Franks offense hasn't been an issue, it has, but Phil Jackson couldn't win with your only two reliable post players are continually missing easy shots that the offense has produced for them.

I read the scout's take as a defense of Frank, not a condemnation. That Frank is doing pretty much all he can to make the offense simple enough for the players to run. The comments were not that the offense was bad in and of itself, but that Frank has had to simplify things so much [so the team is able to run it] rather than Frank's offense is bad. I thought it was saying our Pacers players are not very smart, not that the coach can't design an offense.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

I read the scout's take as a defense of Frank, not a condemnation. That Frank is doing pretty much all he can to make the offense simple enough for the players to run. The comments were not that the offense was bad in and of itself, but that Frank has had to simplify things so much [so the team is able to run it] rather than Frank's offense is bad. I thought it was saying our Pacers players are not very smart, not that the coach can't design an offense.

I think you are right. And before the next person says "How much more simple can it get?" (a comment based on last year's system) the implication is that the coaching staff tried to install a more complex system during camp and the players can't run it. Consequently, we have never actually seen it this year.

Now that's partly on our team (low BB IQ overall) and partly on the coaching staff - they need to have a good feel for what the players can handle. But I understand that this can be difficult, because you do want to challenge your team to grow. Now that we're in the mess we're in I think it's clear that Frank and co. are going to need to do more than just simplify. We also need to diversify (even if the additional plays end up being relatively "simple").

"Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

"Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire"Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others." - William Greider

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Really. I thought those guys were brutal on Vogel. Maybe its the unsaid part... hard to imagine an experienced coach having some of the same issues right now, and I think that is what those anonmymous scouts were getting at. Frank looked good in the honeymoon period, but now that things aren't going well it could be that we're seeing a lack of depth in his bag of coaching tools. Vogel has simplified the offense for the benefit of his no-so-smart, poor ballhandling team and the scout is saying, "this is pretty easy to defend", questioning the decision to over simiplify (as he's clearly not getting the desired results.)

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Tim, would you be of the opinion that making West a larger part of the offense at this time, in a sense encouraging him to be a bit selfish, would enhance the probability of winning a few more games until either additional players (Hibbert, George) can "step up" or Granger returns?

Sorry...got wrapped up at work.

I agree with this, though I think "assertive" is probably a better word. West is shooting at a near-career high clip in terms of attempts, but he's been missing over the last three games. I think West & Hill should be the guys looking to score, and every one else should play off of that.

BTW...one of the big things about West needing to score more is that it alters the mechanics of the offense. Last year, West did a great deal of facilitating, and was generally the guy who reversed the ball, getting the offense to move from side-to-side. That isn't happening consistently - and when it does, they aren't converting on the shots as much.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

It's easy for those scouts to all be right when there are so many things wrong. As a practical matter, I'm not sure what the coach should be doing different. Hibbert is missing close shots. I don't think the PG play has been particularly adept at getting him the ball. I haven't seen most of the games b/c I don't have cable, but has the team noticeably gone away from getting him the ball in positions he got it in last year?

It seems to me that things are worse across the board.
1. Roy misses the same sort of shots he made last year.
2. The PGs aren't as good at delivering the ball so they are getting him fewer close and easy looks than last year.
3. The offense is even more predictable and one dimensional with Granger out.
4. Replacing Granger and Collison with Green/Young and Augustin/Stephenson we should expect to be worse.

My recipe for improvement would be
1. Play Augustin more and hope like hell he gets it together. With a guy like Hibbert, it's incredibly important that we've got smart, good passers at every other position. The Pacers were successful last year playing Collison and Hill together. I'd do more of that.
2. On that note too, I'd look to see if another solid PG can be procured without breaking the bank. Get a bigger guy who can play next to either of the two we've got, and Stephenson can be the fourth guy.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Green is an iso player? Green can beat his man off the dribble? Green is a creator with the ball?

What am I missing?

He can jump. He can streak shoot the 3. I've seen no evidence that he can consistently break down D off the dribble and create for others or successfully score the ball. I think his ball handling looks about as dicey as PGs.