You know, jughood, I have a question for you, if you don't mind. You are very unique in the sense that you've read all about OTIII online, and it doesn't seem to put you off Scientology. What do you think about it, if you don't mind discussing that.

I haven't actually read all the materials but, hey, it's kind of hard not to "get" what it is.

And although I am against the church, I am pro-scientology.

I believe that it's possible that such things happened. Not from a "scientific" viewpoint, but from a "faith" viewpoint.

I haven't actually experienced the level, so I do not know if running it would actually help, etc. I would have to experience it. But just because it looks like a bunch of BS, it doesn't mean that it might not be enjoyable to run the process.

The story of the christian messiah is also something that, looking objectively, sounds wierd. But does it mean it never happened? No.

The fact that I don't beleive it, doens't alter the fact that there ARE people that believe it or know it with all their heart and soul.

I don't know if this is a distraction to the comm cycle with jughood, but there's my take.

I haven't actually read all the materials but, hey, it's kind of hard not to "get" what it is.

And although I am against the church, I am pro-scientology.

I believe that it's possible that such things happened. Not from a "scientific" viewpoint, but from a "faith" viewpoint.

I haven't actually experienced the level, so I do not know if running it would actually help, etc. I would have to experience it. But just because it looks like a bunch of BS, it doesn't mean that it might not be enjoyable to run the process.

The story of the christian messiah is also something that, looking objectively, sounds wierd. But does it mean it never happened? No.

The fact that I don't beleive it, doens't alter the fact that there ARE people that believe it or know it with all their heart and soul.

I don't know if this is a distraction to the comm cycle with jughood, but there's my take.

Not to derail too much, but the Christian creation theory etc. are very much open to interpretation. The Church of England and the Finnish Lutheran Church tell their parishioners not to take these stories as literal but to examine their spiritual value and the underlying message rather than the explicit events.

What always gets me about the whole OTIII thing is that it appears to be presented and taught as ABSOLUTE FACT rather than an event that is open to interpretation beyond just the physical events which it describes.

Kinda like reading 1984, if you take it as a "prediction of the future" and you read it directly it would seem like lunacy to anyone, however what is key there is the underlying message about 'current' (1940s) society and where certain prominent ideals are leading to.

I mean, heck, Body Thetans are all from it and in a sense all future OT levels are based around its events - which already on its own proves it must be taken litarally! Otherwise ones reality tunnel might be broken.

TL;DR, OTIII is not cool due to the fact that it appears to be meant as Literal and an absolute truth.

That's all very well and good, ladies, but not really the nature of my question.

My point is, I've always thought (maybe cynically) that no one would be interested in Scientology if they read the OTIII materials before they were in the church for a long time. I thought the materials would make just about anyone walk out unless they were "in".

And yet here's jughood, who has read them, and is still interested in the OT levels to some degree. I just respectfully want to know why.

You know, when I think about it, the OT III incident probably wouldn't necessarily stop a depressed person from seeking help from Scientology.

All it takes to be converted, really, is some really nice Scientologists promoting it, some love bombing, and an auditing session where the you have "wins." And if you feel happier and you feel good compared to how you felt before, you're not going to care that there might be a bizarre sci-fi story on OT III.

I guess it's analogous to a depressed atheist being saved by Jesus and converting to Christianity.

Sorry. I know you have a serious question. But that really is what comes to mind!

In reading Dianetics what i have seen is that LRH makes repeated assertions which he then tries to provide vague examples for. However, this is totally backwards from the scientific process. "Dianetics Works!' is hardly a testable premise when 'dianetics' is never defined, or defined so vaguely that it could be anything. Critical thinkers of that time saw this and rightly warned people against it. The problem was and is that people do tend to follow authority (remember the gradually increasing electric shock experiments, anyone?) if authority asserts itself strongly enough to overcome their basic instincts of right and wrong. IMHO this is one of the foundational techniques for drawing people in to Scientology.

Now these three things are for always: faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love.

I haven't actually read all the materials but, hey, it's kind of hard not to "get" what it is.

And although I am against the church, I am pro-scientology.

I believe that it's possible that such things happened. Not from a "scientific" viewpoint, but from a "faith" viewpoint.

I haven't actually experienced the level, so I do not know if running it would actually help, etc. I would have to experience it. But just because it looks like a bunch of BS, it doesn't mean that it might not be enjoyable to run the process.

The story of the christian messiah is also something that, looking objectively, sounds wierd. But does it mean it never happened? No.

The fact that I don't beleive it, doens't alter the fact that there ARE people that believe it or know it with all their heart and soul.

I don't know if this is a distraction to the comm cycle with jughood, but there's my take.

Not to derail too much, but the Christian creation theory etc. are very much open to interpretation. The Church of England and the Finnish Lutheran Church tell their parishioners not to take these stories as literal but to examine their spiritual value and the underlying message rather than the explicit events.

What always gets me about the whole OTIII thing is that it appears to be presented and taught as ABSOLUTE FACT rather than an event that is open to interpretation beyond just the physical events which it describes.

Kinda like reading 1984, if you take it as a "prediction of the future" and you read it directly it would seem like lunacy to anyone, however what is key there is the underlying message about 'current' (1940s) society and where certain prominent ideals are leading to.

I mean, heck, Body Thetans are all from it and in a sense all future OT levels are based around its events - which already on its own proves it must be taken litarally! Otherwise ones reality tunnel might be broken.

TL;DR, OTIII is not cool due to the fact that it appears to be meant as Literal and an absolute truth.

Given that there is tons of evidence the L Ron was a major con artist, satanist and whack job, why would anyone lend any credence to anything in Scn?

Much of the "tech" has been shown to have been lifted from other's works and just massaged to align with L Ron's plans. Plans to make tons of $$$, which it seems it has been doing nicely at.

DM's crew has only added an "edge" to the process and made it work better as a cash cow.
Like a drug dealer, the first few hits are "free" or cheap. Once you are on board and "hooked" the price goes up astronomically!

I see many threads about how "the tech is good but the management is corrupting the CoS" ala FreeZone etc. Maybe they actually have some good ideas. Since L Ron did not actually invent it, maybe it can work in some instances. I, for one, am so done with the whole thing.

Tru2form wrote:That's all very well and good, ladies, but not really the nature of my question.

My point is, I've always thought (maybe cynically) that no one would be interested in Scientology if they read the OTIII materials before they were in the church for a long time. I thought the materials would make just about anyone walk out unless they were "in".

And yet here's jughood, who has read them, and is still interested in the OT levels to some degree. I just respectfully want to know why.

It is quite common for critics to mock scientology with the Xenu story.
And alongside it one gets knowledge of many offences to humanity
committed by the COS.

However, OT III deals with what is perhaps the most widespread religious belief, that the world and existence is spiritual in nature and that this has more power and importance than material matters. Even the Catholic church practices exorcism, and indeed this is sometimes done in protestant churches. My dad was an Episcopalian exorcist.

The new testament is full of Jesus ridding people of demons, and he taught his deciples to do the same.

You will commonly find in catholic counties that people most definitely believe in spirits, witch doctors or any local terms for such. And consider
them in some ways more important than the parish priest.

Without the context of the evils of COS it might be that OT III
data would be very interesting to people.

Wicca has way outgrown scientology.

I consider the "Magickal" roots of scientology to be something to attract peoples interest to scientology. Its definitely a minority viewpoint!

The actual OT III story itself dosn't IMO make much sense in terms of logistics. I personally think this is merely what LRH said it was... a story.
I don't believe it and I have done OTIII twice successfully. Most find it works and gives benefits. OT II is even weirder really.

Demons, entities, spirits are a reality. To most people in the world.

The majority in the FZ know about OT III and it dosn't put them off from doing it. And it can be delivered for a few hundred dollars or so.

Tru2form wrote:That's all very well and good, ladies, but not really the nature of my question.

My point is, I've always thought (maybe cynically) that no one would be interested in Scientology if they read the OTIII materials before they were in the church for a long time. I thought the materials would make just about anyone walk out unless they were "in".

And yet here's jughood, who has read them, and is still interested in the OT levels to some degree. I just respectfully want to know why.

It is quite common for critics to mock scientology with the Xenu story. And alongside it one gets knowledge of many offences to humanity committed by the COS.

However, OT III deals with what is perhaps the most widespread religious belief, that the world and existence is spiritual in nature and that this has more power and importance than material matters. Even the Catholic church practices exorcism, and indeed this is sometimes done in protestant churches. My dad was an Episcopalian exorcist.

The new testament is full of Jesus ridding people of demons, and he taught his deciples to do the same.

You will commonly find in catholic counties that people most definitely believe in spirits, witch doctors or any local terms for such. And consider them in some ways more important than the parish priest.

Without the context of the evils of COS it might be that OT III data would be very interesting to people.

Wicca has way outgrown scientology.

I consider the "Magickal" roots of scientology to be something to attract peoples interest to scientology. Its definitely a minority viewpoint!

The actual OT III story itself dosn't IMO make much sense in terms of logistics. I personally think this is merely what LRH said it was... a story. I don't believe it and I have done OTIII twice successfully. Most find it works and gives benefits. OT II is even weirder really.

Demons, entities, spirits are a reality. To most people in the world.

The majority in the FZ know about OT III and it dosn't put them off from doing it. And it can be delivered for a few hundred dollars or so.

Your dad was an exorcist? You can still BE an exorcist? Terril, that's so cool, I don't know whether to compose a metal song to your father or rethink my entire worldview or both.

" I consider the "Magickal" roots of scientology to be something to attract peoples interest to scientology. Its definitely a minority viewpoint! "

I don't know that this is necessarily true. I mean, it puts a lot of people off, but my 15-year-old Wiccan experimenting self would have thought that was really cool. Might have kept me in a bit longer. Instead, I was thown into ethics for burning incense and making little love charm sachets.

TRUEFORM
Your dad was an exorcist? You can still BE an exorcist? Terril, that's so cool, I don't know whether to compose a metal song to your father or rethink my entire worldview or both.

TERRIL
My Father has passed away. I think He'd be honoured to have a song
composed in his honour. He was also a healer in the Order of St Johm or something similar.

I know some " Squirrel" Philipina catholics who very seriously get into excorcism.

Now hold your hat!

They had someone who was sick, and the excorcist and helpers visited and put holy water and a cross on her, and the person said the cross was very hot and then went into a trance, or as described was possessed by the person who had put a bad spell or bad wish on her. The excorcist
beat the sick person with a broomstick and asked who she was, and
got a name, carried on beating and then asked the person to remove the spell. This apparently happened. The sick person woke up, not remembering what happened and was better the next day. Doctors had found no cause for the extreme fatigue etc.

Another person had an extremely severe case of excema, something that is very difficult if not impossible to cure. And the Drs hadn't. She had
a ceremony with matches held to her body and got very hot but dosn't remwember much. Within a couple of days the excema had gone. I was witness to that.

Another case of multiple excorcisms. Several healers handled people one after the other. Holding parts of the body, and saying "go back to where you belong". Sometimes the person walked in a trance and then woke up wondering how they had moved.

I say squirrel not because of the excorcism methods but that at least some of them followed a spiritual leader who channelled Jesus alledgedly.
They still think they are main stream catholics though.

" I consider the "Magickal" roots of scientology to be something to attract peoples interest to scientology. Its definitely a minority viewpoint! "

TRUEFORM
I don't know that this is necessarily true. I mean, it puts a lot of people off, but my 15-year-old Wiccan experimenting self would have thought that was really cool. Might have kept me in a bit longer. Instead, I was thown into ethics for burning incense and making little love charm sachets.

... Wow, that's more embarassing than I remember. *wince*[/quote]

TERRIL
Ah! that explains the comm lag for them working. After all your just back from honeymoon.

You should have told the E/O that you were just going back to the source of source. After all he did recomend one of Crowleys books in the PDC lectures.

Tru2form wrote:You know, jughood, I have a question for you, if you don't mind. You are very unique in the sense that you've read all about OTIII online, and it doesn't seem to put you off Scientology. What do you think about it, if you don't mind discussing that.

Hi, I'm going to answer this if you don't mind.

I dont really know what to think but it doesn't scare me away or anything. Growing up I watched 'Unsolved Mysteries" and read about aliens and ghosts and things, and loved all that stuff, most kids do, it's really interesting and I already believed in aliens (i mean, cmon, of course there are aliens, look at how big the galaxy is) so I actually really liked the aspect of Scientology that talked about aliens and other planets and civilizations, I found that the most interesting, it was sort of a lure for me personally.

I dont know about this xenu stuff though, Im obviously not going to accept something someone says. Ive never remembered a past life incidient or anything so I'm not 100 percent sure they're true and all that stuff is just stuff to me, I have no personal experience with it. So maybe one day I will remember past life things and xenu stuff, etc. but until then, I dont really care.

jughood.1) do you feel this is like a modern day creation of christianity?2) do you think scientology is here to stay ?

thats all that i can think off the top of my head that wont end up in an argument...

Hi, I'm going to answer, hope thats okay.

1. I don't really because to me, christianity is kind of a blind faith, you're just putting your faith in something and praying and that's really all there is to it, and Scientology is more of a self-help counselling kind of thing as well as a religion, so I think its a lot different. I think its actually more of a modern day psychology if anything.

2. yes! I am pretty sure its here to say unless America bans it completely or something like that and I really dont see that happening. I really think its just going to grow and grow and grow and all of the weird stuff about it will kind of get overshadowed and people will get so used to it and adjust to it having it around that it wont be like "omg scientology so weird!" itll be like "oh yeah scientology ok" I think it's a slow process

jughood.1) do you feel this is like a modern day creation of christianity?2) do you think scientology is here to stay ?

thats all that i can think off the top of my head that wont end up in an argument...

Hi, I'm going to answer, hope thats okay.

1. I don't really because to me, christianity is kind of a blind faith, you're just putting your faith in something and praying and that's really all there is to it, and Scientology is more of a self-help counselling kind of thing as well as a religion, so I think its a lot different. I think its actually more of a modern day psychology if anything.

2. yes! I am pretty sure its here to say unless America bans it completely or something like that and I really dont see that happening. I really think its just going to grow and grow and grow and all of the weird stuff about it will kind of get overshadowed and people will get so used to it and adjust to it having it around that it wont be like "omg scientology so weird!" itll be like "oh yeah scientology ok" I think it's a slow process

jughood.1) do you feel this is like a modern day creation of christianity?2) do you think scientology is here to stay ?

thats all that i can think off the top of my head that wont end up in an argument...

Hi, I'm going to answer, hope thats okay.

1. I don't really because to me, christianity is kind of a blind faith, you're just putting your faith in something and praying and that's really all there is to it, and Scientology is more of a self-help counselling kind of thing as well as a religion, so I think its a lot different. I think its actually more of a modern day psychology if anything.

2. yes! I am pretty sure its here to say unless America bans it completely or something like that and I really dont see that happening. I really think its just going to grow and grow and grow and all of the weird stuff about it will kind of get overshadowed and people will get so used to it and adjust to it having it around that it wont be like "omg scientology so weird!" itll be like "oh yeah scientology ok" I think it's a slow process

You think it's going to grow and grow and grow....yet it's a slow process???
You do realize Scientology hasn't really grown much over the last 20 years right!
It will never be "oh yeah, Scientology, ok" more like "oh yeah, Scientology, ok....but I want no part of it". Which is what is already going on.
The ONLY reason Scientology has grown at all are the kids that grow up indoctrinated to Scientology. Not knowing it's a scam and all they want is money.

"Everybody has a right to believe what they want to believe. But I don't believe that anybody has a right to trick anybody, to hurt anybody, to harm some body, for their own purposes." - Jason Beghe

You think it's going to grow and grow and grow....yet it's a slow process??? You do realize Scientology hasn't really grown much over the last 20 years right!It will never be "oh yeah, Scientology, ok" more like "oh yeah, Scientology, ok....but I want no part of it". Which is what is already going on. The ONLY reason Scientology has grown at all are the kids that grow up indoctrinated to Scientology. Not knowing it's a scam and all they want is money.

Scientology has been shrinking in the last 20 years.

The COS did have a period of excellent growth which ended with the attacks on the Mission Network, and the new regime. It was once acceptable to join staff instead of university.