Canada’s homeschoolers can’t teach against homosexuality

Under Alberta’s new Education Act, homeschoolers and faith-based schools will not be permitted to teach that homosexual acts are sinful as part of their academic program, says the spokesperson for Education Minister Thomas Lukaszuk.

“You can affirm the family’s ideology in your family life, you just can’t do it as part of your educational study and instruction,” she added.

Reacting to the remarks, Paul Faris of the Home School Legal Defence Association said the Ministry of Education is “clearly signaling that they are in fact planning to violate the private conversations families have in their own homes.” . . .

Section 16 of the new legislation restates the current School Act’s requirement that schools “reflect the diverse nature” of Alberta in their curriculum, but it adds that they must also “honour and respect” the controversial Alberta Human Rights Act that has been used to target Christians with traditional beliefs on homosexuality. ‘School’ is defined to include homeschoolers and private schools in addition to publicly funded school boards. . . .

According to McColl, Christian homeschooling families can continue to impart Biblical teachings on homosexuality in their homes, “as long as it’s not part of their academic program of studies and instructional materials.”

“What they want to do about their ideology elsewhere, that’s their family business. But a fundamental nature of our society is to respect diversity,” she added. . . .

She justified the government’s position by pointing to Friday’s Supreme Court ruling upholding the Quebec government’s refusal to exempt families from its controversial ethics and religious culture program. That program, which aims to present the spectrum of world religions and lifestyle choices from a “neutral” stance, is required of all students, including homeschoolers.

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

Klasie Kraalogies

Correction: This is a proposed law in the Province of Alberta. In Canada, the provinces very much control their own educational systems.

When say California’s State Government wants to do something, I don’t go and say “Americans do this and that”! Sheesh.

Klasie Kraalogies

Correction: This is a proposed law in the Province of Alberta. In Canada, the provinces very much control their own educational systems.

When say California’s State Government wants to do something, I don’t go and say “Americans do this and that”! Sheesh.

SKPeterson

I’m interested in exactly how this would be enforced, or how such a mandate would be reflected in an educational curriculum. I’m especially interested in how one separates moral instruction in parochial or home schools from standard instruction. This just strikes me as a foolish law that cannot be enforced, all the while handing overzealous educrats authority to go mucking about in people’s private affairs.

SKPeterson

I’m interested in exactly how this would be enforced, or how such a mandate would be reflected in an educational curriculum. I’m especially interested in how one separates moral instruction in parochial or home schools from standard instruction. This just strikes me as a foolish law that cannot be enforced, all the while handing overzealous educrats authority to go mucking about in people’s private affairs.

http://womanofthehouse-blog.blogspot.com/ womanofthehouse

As someone who has been homeschooling her children for twelve years, I wonder how in the world a person can separate “school” time from “family” time. One of the best things about homeschooling is that one flows seamlessly into the other so that there is really no division at all. It’s just life. Also, the topic of homosexuality rarely comes up at our house anyway. Our kids know it’s wrong, but we don’t talk about it every day or even every month. It’s just not necessary or desireable, though I suspect there are those who think we “religious nuts” probably drill our kids on the evils of homosexuality every day. But we have many more important things to do and discuss in the course of the day.

http://womanofthehouse-blog.blogspot.com/ womanofthehouse

As someone who has been homeschooling her children for twelve years, I wonder how in the world a person can separate “school” time from “family” time. One of the best things about homeschooling is that one flows seamlessly into the other so that there is really no division at all. It’s just life. Also, the topic of homosexuality rarely comes up at our house anyway. Our kids know it’s wrong, but we don’t talk about it every day or even every month. It’s just not necessary or desireable, though I suspect there are those who think we “religious nuts” probably drill our kids on the evils of homosexuality every day. But we have many more important things to do and discuss in the course of the day.

Of course, while it is still early in the day on the West Coast, what are the chances we are going to get some post about the evil Socialist Canada from you-know-who? Any bets?

Klasie Kraalogies

Of course, while it is still early in the day on the West Coast, what are the chances we are going to get some post about the evil Socialist Canada from you-know-who? Any bets?

Cincinnatus

It’s simply a matter of fact that Canada maintains an atmosphere towards free speech that is decidedly less friendly and open than the one fostered in the United States. Thus, as with several other notable Canadian (and/or provincial) policies, this law is a blatant violation of an American understanding of free speech, as well as rights of conscience, etc.

But aside from that minor quibble, how is this problematic at a practical level? Just don’t teach your kids that homosexuality is sinful “as part of the curriculum.” Ta da! Do it as a life lesson, as a moral teaching, as a one-on-one quality time talk with dad, as a religious exercise. Aside from the RCC catechism, what textbook includes a list of sinful behaviors, anyway?

Cincinnatus

It’s simply a matter of fact that Canada maintains an atmosphere towards free speech that is decidedly less friendly and open than the one fostered in the United States. Thus, as with several other notable Canadian (and/or provincial) policies, this law is a blatant violation of an American understanding of free speech, as well as rights of conscience, etc.

But aside from that minor quibble, how is this problematic at a practical level? Just don’t teach your kids that homosexuality is sinful “as part of the curriculum.” Ta da! Do it as a life lesson, as a moral teaching, as a one-on-one quality time talk with dad, as a religious exercise. Aside from the RCC catechism, what textbook includes a list of sinful behaviors, anyway?

Cincinnatus

SKP: It can be enforced if we’re talking about explicit curricula. When I was homeschooled, even “back in the day,” my school district required documentary evidence of my curriculum, my grades, etc. A health textbook that, for whatever reason, made a big deal about homosexuality may have been noticed. But yeah, otherwise, it’s just as I said: tell your kids that homosexuality is evil off the record, while waiting for Canadian courts to strike down the law (which, since we’re talking about Canada, may not actually happen).

Cincinnatus

SKP: It can be enforced if we’re talking about explicit curricula. When I was homeschooled, even “back in the day,” my school district required documentary evidence of my curriculum, my grades, etc. A health textbook that, for whatever reason, made a big deal about homosexuality may have been noticed. But yeah, otherwise, it’s just as I said: tell your kids that homosexuality is evil off the record, while waiting for Canadian courts to strike down the law (which, since we’re talking about Canada, may not actually happen).

Klasie Kraalogies

Cincinnatus: There is also some other things going on here.

The Alberta government has for the longest time been seen as the most Conservative Provinial government in Canada. The new Premier, and leader of the Provincial (which is, and acts entireliy separately from the National branch) Conservative party, Allison Redford, has evidently decided to temper that. This has also led to the resurgence of the libertarian Wild Rose Alliance, a young party, incidentally also led by a woman, Danielle Smith. Recent polls has suggested that although the Conservative would still win an election, there victory would not be such a coast as before (they have been in government there since the early 70′s). See here – http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/16/albertas-wildrose-gaining-support-while-pcs-flag-new-survey-suggests/

Klasie Kraalogies

Cincinnatus: There is also some other things going on here.

The Alberta government has for the longest time been seen as the most Conservative Provinial government in Canada. The new Premier, and leader of the Provincial (which is, and acts entireliy separately from the National branch) Conservative party, Allison Redford, has evidently decided to temper that. This has also led to the resurgence of the libertarian Wild Rose Alliance, a young party, incidentally also led by a woman, Danielle Smith. Recent polls has suggested that although the Conservative would still win an election, there victory would not be such a coast as before (they have been in government there since the early 70′s). See here – http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/16/albertas-wildrose-gaining-support-while-pcs-flag-new-survey-suggests/

Cincinnatus

KK:

I realize that Alberta’s government is the most conservative (or, really, libertarian) of Canada’s provincial government (my advisor is from Alberta, so I hear more than I want to hear about provincial politics).

But what does that have to do with whether this policy is acceptable or practical?

Cincinnatus

KK:

I realize that Alberta’s government is the most conservative (or, really, libertarian) of Canada’s provincial government (my advisor is from Alberta, so I hear more than I want to hear about provincial politics).

But what does that have to do with whether this policy is acceptable or practical?

Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

This is a result of valuing getting along more than the ability to voice ones thoughts. Maybe, I am just too American, but I’d probably just ignore them and keep doing what I was doing.

What we should be doing is looking at what is happening in Alberta and make sure it never happens in the U.S. and the recent HHS rulings pretty much go in line with the what Alberta is attempting. Alberta is attempting to force parochial schools to toe the party line because secular parents were complaining that the parochial schools were teaching according to their beliefs. Meanwhile, HHS is trying to force religious institutions to provide services because people of different or non-faith are complaining that they can’t receive them because the religious institution they chose to go to won’t provide them. The state simply needs to get out of people’s consciences.

Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

This is a result of valuing getting along more than the ability to voice ones thoughts. Maybe, I am just too American, but I’d probably just ignore them and keep doing what I was doing.

What we should be doing is looking at what is happening in Alberta and make sure it never happens in the U.S. and the recent HHS rulings pretty much go in line with the what Alberta is attempting. Alberta is attempting to force parochial schools to toe the party line because secular parents were complaining that the parochial schools were teaching according to their beliefs. Meanwhile, HHS is trying to force religious institutions to provide services because people of different or non-faith are complaining that they can’t receive them because the religious institution they chose to go to won’t provide them. The state simply needs to get out of people’s consciences.

Cincinnatus

Dr. Luther@13,

Speaking of you’re being “too American” simply to obey the law unquestioningly, I’ve got one for you:

Q: How do you get 100 Canadians out of a swimming pool?

A: Tell them, “Please get out of the swimming pool.”

Cincinnatus

Dr. Luther@13,

Speaking of you’re being “too American” simply to obey the law unquestioningly, I’ve got one for you:

Q: How do you get 100 Canadians out of a swimming pool?

A: Tell them, “Please get out of the swimming pool.”

formerly just steve

#1 “When say California’s State Government wants to do something, I don’t go and say “Americans do this and that”! Sheesh.”

Heaven forbid!!! Fortunately, most of other state legislatures are still not as crazy/foolish as California’s.

formerly just steve

#1 “When say California’s State Government wants to do something, I don’t go and say “Americans do this and that”! Sheesh.”

Heaven forbid!!! Fortunately, most of other state legislatures are still not as crazy/foolish as California’s.

kerner

I think southpark has figured how to handle this.

kerner

I think southpark has figured how to handle this.

formerly just steve

lol @ #14

formerly just steve

lol @ #14

Cincinnatus

Speaking of your* being too American…

Cincinnatus

Speaking of your* being too American…

Klasie Kraalogies

Cincinnatus, read the linked articles. Gene, and his sources, are entering into inferences and hyperbole here. Apparently, the ministry said something to the tune of you can teach whatever your family values are, but you must respect the Human Rights Act within the academic setting, because they are defined as schools, when questioned as to the nature of respect/disrespect, the linked article, which is, please note, not from a neutral source, states :

McColl said the government “won’t speculate” about particular examples, and explained that she had not yet gotten a “straight answer” on what exactly constitutes “disrespect.” She did say that families “can’t be hatemongering, if you will.”

The last time the government here in Canada took kids away from their parents because of indoctriniation in the home was when the parents covered the kids in swastika’s, and taught them neo-Nazi crap.

If I have to spell out for you why a leftward shift in a formerly very Conservative government impacts legislation like this – well, then, you need some more adivse from that Advisor of yours

Klasie Kraalogies

Cincinnatus, read the linked articles. Gene, and his sources, are entering into inferences and hyperbole here. Apparently, the ministry said something to the tune of you can teach whatever your family values are, but you must respect the Human Rights Act within the academic setting, because they are defined as schools, when questioned as to the nature of respect/disrespect, the linked article, which is, please note, not from a neutral source, states :

McColl said the government “won’t speculate” about particular examples, and explained that she had not yet gotten a “straight answer” on what exactly constitutes “disrespect.” She did say that families “can’t be hatemongering, if you will.”

The last time the government here in Canada took kids away from their parents because of indoctriniation in the home was when the parents covered the kids in swastika’s, and taught them neo-Nazi crap.

If I have to spell out for you why a leftward shift in a formerly very Conservative government impacts legislation like this – well, then, you need some more adivse from that Advisor of yours

SKPeterson

KK @11 – Are you saying that this tack to the left might be a way of mitigating some threat from the Wild Rose on the right by making the Conservatives more appealing to the “middle”? If so, is this just some sort of throw away political gesture? Is this playing at all in Saskatoon or Regina? Or is it really just an odd Albertan anomaly? (For example, don’t ask me about what Kentucky might be doing about this or that – I have no idea).

Cin @ 12 – I understand that homeschoolers also need to provide curricula for review. I also recognize that there are curricula and then there is actual instruction (I work off a master syllabus, but I’m not beholden to it, even though I follow it pretty consistently and closely). I’m just not sure that any of this can be enforced sensibly without a massively intrusive (and largely arbitrary) series of investigations designed to minimize the availability of private schooling options and/or serve as a warning to the private schools that they can be interfered with at the government’s leisure.

SKPeterson

KK @11 – Are you saying that this tack to the left might be a way of mitigating some threat from the Wild Rose on the right by making the Conservatives more appealing to the “middle”? If so, is this just some sort of throw away political gesture? Is this playing at all in Saskatoon or Regina? Or is it really just an odd Albertan anomaly? (For example, don’t ask me about what Kentucky might be doing about this or that – I have no idea).

Cin @ 12 – I understand that homeschoolers also need to provide curricula for review. I also recognize that there are curricula and then there is actual instruction (I work off a master syllabus, but I’m not beholden to it, even though I follow it pretty consistently and closely). I’m just not sure that any of this can be enforced sensibly without a massively intrusive (and largely arbitrary) series of investigations designed to minimize the availability of private schooling options and/or serve as a warning to the private schools that they can be interfered with at the government’s leisure.

The offending portion is on page 29. (Section 18). Do you see what I mean by hyperbole etc……

Cincinnatus

SKP: I agree with you.

KK: I still don’t understand the connection between provincial partisan politics and the practical and/or normative value of this policy. Sure, partisan posturing and ideological evolution is an interesting discussion, but it strikes me as a separate discussion. E.g., the HHS mandate can be discussed as facially problematic, unconstitutional, etc., without invoking the fact that Obama is “just” trying to appeal to certain demographics with the mandate. It doesn’t really matter what Obama’s partisan motivations are in that discussion, does it?

Anyway, the Canadian human rights charter is a disaster, and is the butt of many free speech discussions here in America.

Cincinnatus

SKP: I agree with you.

KK: I still don’t understand the connection between provincial partisan politics and the practical and/or normative value of this policy. Sure, partisan posturing and ideological evolution is an interesting discussion, but it strikes me as a separate discussion. E.g., the HHS mandate can be discussed as facially problematic, unconstitutional, etc., without invoking the fact that Obama is “just” trying to appeal to certain demographics with the mandate. It doesn’t really matter what Obama’s partisan motivations are in that discussion, does it?

Anyway, the Canadian human rights charter is a disaster, and is the butt of many free speech discussions here in America.

Klasie Kraalogies

SKP – the only reason I know about this is because of this site. I’m vaguely aware of some homeschoolers, but they are all weird people…. (really, really weird people). As to my Wild Rose comments – I think that is a possibility, although I’m not convinced that it is.

SK tends to be a very down to earth province. Plus it has 2 distinct Bible belts, which would create serious issues for any government that pushes things to far in any direction. Those “Bible Belts” are areas of Mennonite settlements. We on the edge of one of those – as Lutherans, we are outsiders btw. In the elementary school, the kids still pray the Lords’ Prayer every morning. In a town of 1700 people, there are 2 Mennonite Churches, plus a third that meets in the Community hall – but they are the hyper-Conservative lot. Just to paint a picture. We have to drive to Saskatoon to attend a Lutheran congregation.

Klasie Kraalogies

SKP – the only reason I know about this is because of this site. I’m vaguely aware of some homeschoolers, but they are all weird people…. (really, really weird people). As to my Wild Rose comments – I think that is a possibility, although I’m not convinced that it is.

SK tends to be a very down to earth province. Plus it has 2 distinct Bible belts, which would create serious issues for any government that pushes things to far in any direction. Those “Bible Belts” are areas of Mennonite settlements. We on the edge of one of those – as Lutherans, we are outsiders btw. In the elementary school, the kids still pray the Lords’ Prayer every morning. In a town of 1700 people, there are 2 Mennonite Churches, plus a third that meets in the Community hall – but they are the hyper-Conservative lot. Just to paint a picture. We have to drive to Saskatoon to attend a Lutheran congregation.

Of course, as with any piece of legislation, judicial interpretation plays a role. And it is good and healthy to have a debate about that.

Steve Brummett

Thanks Klasie, for correcting the misunderstanding. I and my family are Americans who have just moved up to Alberta. We also homeschool. This bill has been a sticking point among the homeschool communities in our area, but it is not a fearful point. The Homeschool Defense people are working it through and we must trust in the system. Although, as an American I am known to rebell against the government, so it really doesn’t matter what they pass.

Steve Brummett

Thanks Klasie, for correcting the misunderstanding. I and my family are Americans who have just moved up to Alberta. We also homeschool. This bill has been a sticking point among the homeschool communities in our area, but it is not a fearful point. The Homeschool Defense people are working it through and we must trust in the system. Although, as an American I am known to rebell against the government, so it really doesn’t matter what they pass.

Ah, right in the middle of oil country! And +- 650km up highway 16 from me….

Klasie Kraalogies

Ah, right in the middle of oil country! And +- 650km up highway 16 from me….

Klasie Kraalogies

Would that be Emmaus Lutheran Church (LCC) ?

Klasie Kraalogies

Would that be Emmaus Lutheran Church (LCC) ?

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Klasie (@1, etc.), while I appreciate your correcting the record as far as it goes (this is provincial, not national law, and it’s as yet proposed, and no one is sure how it’s going to be implemented or enforced, etc., etc.) …

I still feel like you’re kind of missing and/or dodging the actual issue here. Sure, as an American, I have a different understanding and expectation of what free speech entails, but, well, that’s the point. As an American, I find this (proposed, provincial, etc.) law to be fairly abhorrent.

Yes, the workarounds are numerous and many for those who want to home-school and yet teach their children that homosexual acts are sinful. But that is, quite obviously, not a defense for a bad law.

The last time the government here in Canada took kids away from their parents because of indoctriniation in the home was when the parents covered the kids in swastika’s, and taught them neo-Nazi crap.

I suppose you find that comforting. As an American, I do not. I find it abhorrent that children would be taken away from their parents solely because the parents were teaching their children the wrong thing about politics, nationality, or race.

I would think that you, of all people, with your background in other countries, would find it equally abhorrent. I would think you would be all-too-attuned to the abuses of power by a national government.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Klasie (@1, etc.), while I appreciate your correcting the record as far as it goes (this is provincial, not national law, and it’s as yet proposed, and no one is sure how it’s going to be implemented or enforced, etc., etc.) …

I still feel like you’re kind of missing and/or dodging the actual issue here. Sure, as an American, I have a different understanding and expectation of what free speech entails, but, well, that’s the point. As an American, I find this (proposed, provincial, etc.) law to be fairly abhorrent.

Yes, the workarounds are numerous and many for those who want to home-school and yet teach their children that homosexual acts are sinful. But that is, quite obviously, not a defense for a bad law.

The last time the government here in Canada took kids away from their parents because of indoctriniation in the home was when the parents covered the kids in swastika’s, and taught them neo-Nazi crap.

I suppose you find that comforting. As an American, I do not. I find it abhorrent that children would be taken away from their parents solely because the parents were teaching their children the wrong thing about politics, nationality, or race.

I would think that you, of all people, with your background in other countries, would find it equally abhorrent. I would think you would be all-too-attuned to the abuses of power by a national government.

SKPeterson

By the same token, though, Todd, I’m more abhorred by the prospect of national government interference in these sorts of things. While Alberta, or California, doing such a thing is certainly not to be admired, I will take some small consolation that the actions taken by a state or province are not binding upon me as a resident of another state or province.

SKPeterson

By the same token, though, Todd, I’m more abhorred by the prospect of national government interference in these sorts of things. While Alberta, or California, doing such a thing is certainly not to be admired, I will take some small consolation that the actions taken by a state or province are not binding upon me as a resident of another state or province.

DonS

This kind of thing is the inevitable outcome of having a “Human Rights Charter” of the type that Canada has instituted. Klasie thinks it’s cool, because Mark Steyn was “exonerated” by the Human Rights Commission for what he wrote. Americans think it is abhorrent that he had to go through the ordeal, expense, disruption, and anxiety of the prosecutorial process, and to be subject to the vagaries of bureaucratic judgment on the issues.

This is why ParentalRights.org, an organization dedicated to preventing the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child from being ratified in the U.S., and to ultimately passing a Parental Rights Amendment to the U.S. Constitution exists. This law is an outgrowth of Canada’s ratification of that abhorrent treaty, which, if ratified in the U.S., would supersede the rights of parents presently understood to be derived from the U.S. Constitution.

SKP @ 2 nailed the problem with this kind of law. How is it enforced? It is vague and inconsistent, in that it requires homeschool curricula to follow the law in respecting the rectitude of homosexuality, but ostensibly allows parents to still teach that homosexuality is a sin in their moral and religious teachings. So what’s the problem? It gives the provincial government a pretty much unfettered right to intrude into the privacy of the homes of those whom it arbitrarily selects, under the guise of simply enforcing this vague and unenforceable law.

DonS

This kind of thing is the inevitable outcome of having a “Human Rights Charter” of the type that Canada has instituted. Klasie thinks it’s cool, because Mark Steyn was “exonerated” by the Human Rights Commission for what he wrote. Americans think it is abhorrent that he had to go through the ordeal, expense, disruption, and anxiety of the prosecutorial process, and to be subject to the vagaries of bureaucratic judgment on the issues.

This is why ParentalRights.org, an organization dedicated to preventing the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child from being ratified in the U.S., and to ultimately passing a Parental Rights Amendment to the U.S. Constitution exists. This law is an outgrowth of Canada’s ratification of that abhorrent treaty, which, if ratified in the U.S., would supersede the rights of parents presently understood to be derived from the U.S. Constitution.

SKP @ 2 nailed the problem with this kind of law. How is it enforced? It is vague and inconsistent, in that it requires homeschool curricula to follow the law in respecting the rectitude of homosexuality, but ostensibly allows parents to still teach that homosexuality is a sin in their moral and religious teachings. So what’s the problem? It gives the provincial government a pretty much unfettered right to intrude into the privacy of the homes of those whom it arbitrarily selects, under the guise of simply enforcing this vague and unenforceable law.

Klasie Kraalogies

DonS – where did I say it is cool (or not)? I merely recounted the facts. You then added the opinion.

Klasie Kraalogies

DonS – where did I say it is cool (or not)? I merely recounted the facts. You then added the opinion.

Klasie @ 33: Well, I read between the lines. Cincinnatus @ 22 said the Human Rights Charter was a “disaster”, and you replied @ 23:

Cincinnatus – probably because it is misunderstood as well. I mean, even after I told him 3 times, Gene still thinks Mark Steyn was convicted of Human Rights violations because of his anti-Muslim remarks in Macleans magazine. But he was exonerated

That seemed like a statement that you disagreed that it was a disaster, and it is actually OK, or “cool”. Maybe I read too much into it, as to what your opinion is, but to many conservatives/libertarians in this country it is as much about the intrusion and the process as it is about the result in this one particular prominent case. The fact that Steyn had to go through the process, merely for writing a column, is what makes it a disaster.

DonS

Klasie @ 33: Well, I read between the lines. Cincinnatus @ 22 said the Human Rights Charter was a “disaster”, and you replied @ 23:

Cincinnatus – probably because it is misunderstood as well. I mean, even after I told him 3 times, Gene still thinks Mark Steyn was convicted of Human Rights violations because of his anti-Muslim remarks in Macleans magazine. But he was exonerated

That seemed like a statement that you disagreed that it was a disaster, and it is actually OK, or “cool”. Maybe I read too much into it, as to what your opinion is, but to many conservatives/libertarians in this country it is as much about the intrusion and the process as it is about the result in this one particular prominent case. The fact that Steyn had to go through the process, merely for writing a column, is what makes it a disaster.

Klasie Kraalogies

Notice the narrative here: The legislation says the following -

Diversity and respect 16 All courses or programs of study offered and instructional materials used in a school must reflect the diverse nature and heritage of society in Alberta, promote understanding and respect for others and honour and respect the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Alberta Human Rights Act.

The immediate reaction is to construct a persecution narrative, and then to blow the whistle on the whole thing. But similarly with Todd’s story on Rick Warren, nobody even reads the damn sources before carrying on….

Footonote: BTW, you do not have to like it either. But at least, discuss with some knowledge, not like cowboys shootin’ in the dark

Klasie Kraalogies

Notice the narrative here: The legislation says the following -

Diversity and respect 16 All courses or programs of study offered and instructional materials used in a school must reflect the diverse nature and heritage of society in Alberta, promote understanding and respect for others and honour and respect the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Alberta Human Rights Act.

The immediate reaction is to construct a persecution narrative, and then to blow the whistle on the whole thing. But similarly with Todd’s story on Rick Warren, nobody even reads the damn sources before carrying on….

Footonote: BTW, you do not have to like it either. But at least, discuss with some knowledge, not like cowboys shootin’ in the dark

SKPeterson

KK – When I read the line about “the diverse nature and heritage of society in Alberta,” I immediately thought of this:

SKPeterson

KK – When I read the line about “the diverse nature and heritage of society in Alberta,” I immediately thought of this:

Grace

“HATE SPEECH” – it was just a matter of time.

How many Christians have been brought before a court of law for giving out Scripture verses from the Bible against homosexuality?

Grace

“HATE SPEECH” – it was just a matter of time.

How many Christians have been brought before a court of law for giving out Scripture verses from the Bible against homosexuality?

Steve Brummett

@Klasie, Yep that is the one.

Steve Brummett

@Klasie, Yep that is the one.

John C

It is a difficult issue, Todd. How does the state respond to homeschooling parents who promote Nazi propaganda? We know what would happen in Germany. (where homeschooling is banned) The state does have certain responsibilities towards children — for instance, children should grow up in an environment free of physical abuse. The state also has an interest in promoting good citizenship. So the larger question is whether the homeschool movement breaches notions of good citizenship. Do homeschoolers have the right to teach anything they like?; the earth is 6000 years old, evolution is bunk and so is science and global warming. Do you really want David Barton’s view of Biblical economics taught instead of the standard curriculm model? Israel’s Haredi Jews are a deeply conservative ultra orthodox sect. Such was their concentration on religious study in education, they are almost unemployable in the 21st century. They have lots of children, they have grown in numbers and they have a small but significant role in coalition governments. To achieve any progress in negotiations with the Palestinans, secular Israel will have to first deal with the ulta orthodox. Homeschool if you must — there is no way of banning it. But the threat to the nation state is great — greater than any threat imagined in Iraq or Afghanistan.

John C

It is a difficult issue, Todd. How does the state respond to homeschooling parents who promote Nazi propaganda? We know what would happen in Germany. (where homeschooling is banned) The state does have certain responsibilities towards children — for instance, children should grow up in an environment free of physical abuse. The state also has an interest in promoting good citizenship. So the larger question is whether the homeschool movement breaches notions of good citizenship. Do homeschoolers have the right to teach anything they like?; the earth is 6000 years old, evolution is bunk and so is science and global warming. Do you really want David Barton’s view of Biblical economics taught instead of the standard curriculm model? Israel’s Haredi Jews are a deeply conservative ultra orthodox sect. Such was their concentration on religious study in education, they are almost unemployable in the 21st century. They have lots of children, they have grown in numbers and they have a small but significant role in coalition governments. To achieve any progress in negotiations with the Palestinans, secular Israel will have to first deal with the ulta orthodox. Homeschool if you must — there is no way of banning it. But the threat to the nation state is great — greater than any threat imagined in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Grace

From a blog about the disgraceful way in which Canada is treating those who homeschool regarding passages against homosexuality in the Bible , to a RANT against the Jews in Israel.

Grace

From a blog about the disgraceful way in which Canada is treating those who homeschool regarding passages against homosexuality in the Bible , to a RANT against the Jews in Israel.

Cincinnatus

John C.,

I was with you until your last sentence. You can’t buy that kind of crazy.

Cincinnatus

John C.,

I was with you until your last sentence. You can’t buy that kind of crazy.

Both of those are people who certainly acted in ways I would not personally condone, although the question of Free Speech is a different kind of question. They are also the only cases I’m aware of.

Grace

When a government makes Scripture a crime, meaning that what is written in the Bible cannot be shared with ones children or friends – then becoming a crime, …. or worse yet, a pastor cannot recite Scripture condemning a particular sin – in fear that he will be facing a judge. There is something very wrong with the country who has instituted those laws.

God bless America, that we never follow suit!

Grace

When a government makes Scripture a crime, meaning that what is written in the Bible cannot be shared with ones children or friends – then becoming a crime, …. or worse yet, a pastor cannot recite Scripture condemning a particular sin – in fear that he will be facing a judge. There is something very wrong with the country who has instituted those laws.

God bless America, that we never follow suit!

Grace

We have freedom of RELIGION and FREEDOM of SPEECH.

That means, that we can and will enjoy freedom in both areas, without the interference from those who OPPOSE FREEDOM.

We, who live in the United States of America can bring up our children in the religion of our choice, both at home and in church. That is not the case around the globe.

There are a vast many countries who contrive ways in which they can put restraints upon their citizens regarding religion. The middle east for example, Canada and Sweden for another, Germany regarding home-schooling.

God help us to keep our freedoms of religion, and not fall prey to the evils of sinful man, wanting to deny us the liberty in Christ.

Grace

We have freedom of RELIGION and FREEDOM of SPEECH.

That means, that we can and will enjoy freedom in both areas, without the interference from those who OPPOSE FREEDOM.

We, who live in the United States of America can bring up our children in the religion of our choice, both at home and in church. That is not the case around the globe.

There are a vast many countries who contrive ways in which they can put restraints upon their citizens regarding religion. The middle east for example, Canada and Sweden for another, Germany regarding home-schooling.

God help us to keep our freedoms of religion, and not fall prey to the evils of sinful man, wanting to deny us the liberty in Christ.

http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

It may be time to vote Wildrose Party in the upcoming election, something that is under contemplation already, anyhow.

http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

It may be time to vote Wildrose Party in the upcoming election, something that is under contemplation already, anyhow.

Grace

Brigitte,

Give us your definition of the “Wildrose Party” -

Grace

Brigitte,

Give us your definition of the “Wildrose Party” -

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

John C (@40), I’m not really sure where you’re going with all this, but…

How does the state respond to homeschooling parents who promote Nazi propaganda?

Well, as I recall, you’re not an American, so perhaps you have a different response, but the answer seems obvious to me: barring any criminal element, the state is agnostic to ideological concerns. A state that can “respond” to parents’ promoting Nazi ideology can just as equally “respond’ to parents’ promoting Christian ideology.

The state also has an interest in promoting good citizenship.

Afraid you’ll have to define your terms here, given the implications of this sentence.

Do homeschoolers have the right to teach anything they like?; the earth is 6000 years old, evolution is bunk and so is science and global warming. Do you really want David Barton’s view of Biblical economics taught instead of the standard curriculm model?

Do you really want me dictating what parents should teach their children? I certainly don’t want you or anyone else dictating how I should teach my children.

I don’t know anything about David Barton or “Biblical economics”, but why should what I “want” enter into the equation? I’m not part of that family. Oh, and why does nearly all the fear-mongering you do seem to have RightWingWatch.org as its source material?

Israel’s Haredi Jews are … almost unemployable in the 21st century.

So? Is it the government’s job to ensure that people are employable? If people intentionally want to exclude themselves from the job market, practically speaking, then why not let them? The problem seems to solve itself, from a market point of view.

And I’ll second Cincinnatus’ take (@42) on your last sentence there.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

John C (@40), I’m not really sure where you’re going with all this, but…

How does the state respond to homeschooling parents who promote Nazi propaganda?

Well, as I recall, you’re not an American, so perhaps you have a different response, but the answer seems obvious to me: barring any criminal element, the state is agnostic to ideological concerns. A state that can “respond” to parents’ promoting Nazi ideology can just as equally “respond’ to parents’ promoting Christian ideology.

The state also has an interest in promoting good citizenship.

Afraid you’ll have to define your terms here, given the implications of this sentence.

Do homeschoolers have the right to teach anything they like?; the earth is 6000 years old, evolution is bunk and so is science and global warming. Do you really want David Barton’s view of Biblical economics taught instead of the standard curriculm model?

Do you really want me dictating what parents should teach their children? I certainly don’t want you or anyone else dictating how I should teach my children.

I don’t know anything about David Barton or “Biblical economics”, but why should what I “want” enter into the equation? I’m not part of that family. Oh, and why does nearly all the fear-mongering you do seem to have RightWingWatch.org as its source material?

Israel’s Haredi Jews are … almost unemployable in the 21st century.

So? Is it the government’s job to ensure that people are employable? If people intentionally want to exclude themselves from the job market, practically speaking, then why not let them? The problem seems to solve itself, from a market point of view.

And I’ll second Cincinnatus’ take (@42) on your last sentence there.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Also Grace (@41, 44, 45), looks like it’s time to renew your prescriptions. If you haven’t done so because the cost is prohibitive, you might want to look into Canadian pharmacies, which are often cheaper while still providing the same quality.

Also Grace (@41, 44, 45), looks like it’s time to renew your prescriptions. If you haven’t done so because the cost is prohibitive, you might want to look into Canadian pharmacies, which are often cheaper while still providing the same quality.

“Also Grace (@41, 44, 45), looks like it’s time to renew your prescriptions. If you haven’t done so because the cost is prohibitive, you might want to look into Canadian pharmacies, which are often cheaper while still providing the same quality.”

WOW ……. is that where you get all that stuff? you give away your secrets? LOL You’re a hoot tODD.

Grace

tODD @ 49

“Also Grace (@41, 44, 45), looks like it’s time to renew your prescriptions. If you haven’t done so because the cost is prohibitive, you might want to look into Canadian pharmacies, which are often cheaper while still providing the same quality.”

WOW ……. is that where you get all that stuff? you give away your secrets? LOL You’re a hoot tODD.

Grace

You can keep your meds tODD, I don’t need them. The very fact that you know where to get such drugs is rather telling.

I asked another person a question and you answer that question with a place to buy meds. You went over the rail on this one!

Grace

You can keep your meds tODD, I don’t need them. The very fact that you know where to get such drugs is rather telling.

I asked another person a question and you answer that question with a place to buy meds. You went over the rail on this one!

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Grace (@51):

The very fact that you know where to get such drugs is rather telling.

Yes, it indicates that I have been vaguely paying attention to health care issues since at least 2004, when the topic of Canadian drugs/pharmacies played a somewhat major role in the Presidential debates, among other places.

I asked another person a question and you answer that question with a place to buy meds.

Actually, if you had bothered to read what I’d written, you’d have noticed that I answered your question with a link that explains the thing you apparently were too lazy to even Google. As this still seems beyond you at the moment, I’ll give you even more help: The Wildrose Party is a conservative provincial political party in Alberta, Canada.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Grace (@51):

The very fact that you know where to get such drugs is rather telling.

Yes, it indicates that I have been vaguely paying attention to health care issues since at least 2004, when the topic of Canadian drugs/pharmacies played a somewhat major role in the Presidential debates, among other places.

I asked another person a question and you answer that question with a place to buy meds.

Actually, if you had bothered to read what I’d written, you’d have noticed that I answered your question with a link that explains the thing you apparently were too lazy to even Google. As this still seems beyond you at the moment, I’ll give you even more help: The Wildrose Party is a conservative provincial political party in Alberta, Canada.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Also, Grace (@51), for English speakers, the phrase is “went off the rails“. FYI.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Also, Grace (@51), for English speakers, the phrase is “went off the rails“. FYI.

SKPeterson

To sum up, Canadians are evil and willing agents of Satan in rebelling against the will of God. But, they are very polite about it.

SKPeterson

To sum up, Canadians are evil and willing agents of Satan in rebelling against the will of God. But, they are very polite about it.

John C

You can’t buy that sort of crazy If a Republican senator who wants to be President believes that colleges are liberal indoctrination mills and global warming is political science, you’ve got crazy. And if Gingrich believes he can win votes by saying that on the first day of re-election, President Obama will go after the Catholic Church, you’ve got more than crazy. The Republican Party is paying a high price for the votes of Christian Conservatives.

John C

You can’t buy that sort of crazy If a Republican senator who wants to be President believes that colleges are liberal indoctrination mills and global warming is political science, you’ve got crazy. And if Gingrich believes he can win votes by saying that on the first day of re-election, President Obama will go after the Catholic Church, you’ve got more than crazy. The Republican Party is paying a high price for the votes of Christian Conservatives.

Grace

tODD @ 52 and 53

I asked Brigitte for HER “definition” - not your GOOGLE search.

“Brigitte,

Give us your definition of the “Wildrose Party” -”

And then there is your “med” scoop, when all else fails, and falls off the “rail” –

Grace

tODD @ 52 and 53

I asked Brigitte for HER “definition” - not your GOOGLE search.

“Brigitte,

Give us your definition of the “Wildrose Party” -”

And then there is your “med” scoop, when all else fails, and falls off the “rail” –

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Best of luck on your intellectual quest, Grace (@56). May you find the answer you seek. And without having to debase yourself with search engines, or whatever.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Best of luck on your intellectual quest, Grace (@56). May you find the answer you seek. And without having to debase yourself with search engines, or whatever.

John C

As I said Todd, it is a difficult issue. I’m reluctant to define citizenship. Each country attaches its own meaning to the notion. I surprised you haven’t heard of David Barton. He pops up everywhere. In 2005 he was listed by Times’s Magazine’s as one of ‘the 25 most influential Evangelicals’. He is endorsed by Bachmann, Huckabee and Gingrich and he is Glen Beck’s resident historian. ( an adjunct professor no less) He is not a historian by training but does have a degree in religious education from Oral Roberts University. You may think David was unqualified to be appointed to the Texas State Board of Education but that is not the case. He is a significant figure on the Christian Right and the homeschool movement. As I said, homeshooling cannot be banned — not in your country or mine. I don’t know what is to be done about parents who promote Nazi propaganda or creationism at home — bugger all I suspect. As you may gather, I regard the homeschool movement as divisive and a threat to social cohesion. I think there is evidence for my argument in in statements made by the candidates in the Republican primaries. The threat to the American way of life was not found across the seas in Iraq or Afghanistan but is found , this time at least, at home in the fear and ignorance of crude ideology and the failure of political leadership.

John C

As I said Todd, it is a difficult issue. I’m reluctant to define citizenship. Each country attaches its own meaning to the notion. I surprised you haven’t heard of David Barton. He pops up everywhere. In 2005 he was listed by Times’s Magazine’s as one of ‘the 25 most influential Evangelicals’. He is endorsed by Bachmann, Huckabee and Gingrich and he is Glen Beck’s resident historian. ( an adjunct professor no less) He is not a historian by training but does have a degree in religious education from Oral Roberts University. You may think David was unqualified to be appointed to the Texas State Board of Education but that is not the case. He is a significant figure on the Christian Right and the homeschool movement. As I said, homeshooling cannot be banned — not in your country or mine. I don’t know what is to be done about parents who promote Nazi propaganda or creationism at home — bugger all I suspect. As you may gather, I regard the homeschool movement as divisive and a threat to social cohesion. I think there is evidence for my argument in in statements made by the candidates in the Republican primaries. The threat to the American way of life was not found across the seas in Iraq or Afghanistan but is found , this time at least, at home in the fear and ignorance of crude ideology and the failure of political leadership.

http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

Grace and Todd, my grip on provincial politics is not very good right now; I can’t tell you much about it. There is an election coming up and several times I have received phone calls asking my opinion on the budget and so on. I am afraid I haven’t much of a clue about the budget because I have been watching nothing but BBC and Deutsche Welle and Tagesschau, while reading only the National Post. So it’s actually a good question. I should google it myself. But I have a husband who can tell me more about it.

http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

Grace and Todd, my grip on provincial politics is not very good right now; I can’t tell you much about it. There is an election coming up and several times I have received phone calls asking my opinion on the budget and so on. I am afraid I haven’t much of a clue about the budget because I have been watching nothing but BBC and Deutsche Welle and Tagesschau, while reading only the National Post. So it’s actually a good question. I should google it myself. But I have a husband who can tell me more about it.

John C

Santorum homeschools the kids. His views on public education, homosexuality and government are typical of the rightwing Christian homeschool movement. When he speaks, he speaks of their fears and prejudices in an argument against modernity.

John C

Santorum homeschools the kids. His views on public education, homosexuality and government are typical of the rightwing Christian homeschool movement. When he speaks, he speaks of their fears and prejudices in an argument against modernity.

Grace

Brigitte @ 59

Thank you for responding.

Grace

Brigitte @ 59

Thank you for responding.

Grace

John C @ 60

“Santorum homeschools the kids. His views on public education, homosexuality and government are typical of the rightwing Christian homeschool movement. When he speaks, he speaks of their fears and prejudices in an argument against modernity.”

WOW – - you catch on fast John. Do you have something against HOMESCHOOLING?

Do you support homosexuality, and “transgender” being taught in schools?

Do you believe people who “homeschool” should be penalized for teaching against homosexuality?

Do you have something against Christians, and their conservative values?

Grace

John C @ 60

“Santorum homeschools the kids. His views on public education, homosexuality and government are typical of the rightwing Christian homeschool movement. When he speaks, he speaks of their fears and prejudices in an argument against modernity.”

WOW – - you catch on fast John. Do you have something against HOMESCHOOLING?

Do you support homosexuality, and “transgender” being taught in schools?

Do you believe people who “homeschool” should be penalized for teaching against homosexuality?

Do you have something against Christians, and their conservative values?

John C

Yep, to most of those questions.

John C

Yep, to most of those questions.

Grace

John C @ 63

“Yep, to most of those questions.”

It’s your problem, not those with Christian values, who understand what the Bible teaches against homosexual/transgender lifestyles.

Grace

John C @ 63

“Yep, to most of those questions.”

It’s your problem, not those with Christian values, who understand what the Bible teaches against homosexual/transgender lifestyles.

John C

Not or Christians are Conservative, Grace. Not all Christians share your views on homosexuality. It’s the last week of summer in Sydney and tonight the gay and lesbian community are marching and dancing on the streets in the Mardi Gra Parade. Tens of thousands of spectators, including mums and dads with children raised on shoulders, most of them Christian, will be swept up in the excitement and celebration. A handful of evangelicals will pray for rain. It rarely does. I don’t think God is too worried by it all. He may even be smiling.

John C

Not or Christians are Conservative, Grace. Not all Christians share your views on homosexuality. It’s the last week of summer in Sydney and tonight the gay and lesbian community are marching and dancing on the streets in the Mardi Gra Parade. Tens of thousands of spectators, including mums and dads with children raised on shoulders, most of them Christian, will be swept up in the excitement and celebration. A handful of evangelicals will pray for rain. It rarely does. I don’t think God is too worried by it all. He may even be smiling.