On behalf of the many Alabamians who "do have a lick of sense," I would like to apologize for the most recent round of idiocy that had an Alabama dateline on it. Ah, the Republicans and Christian fundamentalists who elected this yahoo as supreme court justice!

I think that it was a plot by Californians to get their state out of the national limelight.

I recently lived in Alabama (for two years), and it really is a fine state, but the national media only seem to pay attention to it when something embarrassing happens. All that said, it's amazing to me that a State Supreme Court Chief can be popularly elected; that's just about setting up an unfortunate situation like the current one. It's too bad Roy Moore has decided not to uphold the law, which is why he supposedly was elected to begin with. (But then again, law can become so inconvenient....)

I applaude the man myself if you all are talking about the 10 Commandments statue. Our country has been degraded by all forms of perserve crap, yet have a generic thing like the 10 Commandments in a courthouse and it is a great sin. Sorry, I don't agree at all and will never be convinced to the contrary. Too many little factions are running the majority ragged........

With all respect Bucko, may I point out that the 10 C are not generic: they are from the Old Testament, which makes them connected to Judaism, which makes them a religious statement. It matters not that most of us agree with the commandments, they are a distinct religious message and, well, we do have The Constitution to look after.

Ever heard a judge say to someone he or she would like to help with sentencing, "but I am bound by the law."? Well, this yahoo is a judge who is sworn to uphold the law, whether or not he agrees with it. And if he does not agree with upholding the law, than he is that person who should be asked to leave, to go somewhere where the law is the joke he seems to think it is.

One of the things about this whole flap that has struck me, is that many supporters of Moore have been labelling themselves as persecuted underdogs, even to the point of invoking "We Shall Overcome" and other hallmarks of the Civil Rights Movement.

In other words, Moore and his group are guilty of using the rhetoric of victimization; when this rhetoric comes from the mouths of racial, ethnic, sexual, etc. minorities in this country, people like Moore are among the first to downplay the sentiments of those who see themselves as victims. Anyone remember Rush Limbaugh?

So, we've come full circle: Moore and Company have entered the "culture of complaint" that they have otherwise despised.

The Ten Commandments are about God, not any faction thereof, plain and simple. Shall we change all of our money as well, since it has In God We Trust?

Let's just rule bestiality legal, smoke or snort some dope, and have a gay old time. I for one am not ashamed to go on record and say "Enough already!" This country is eroding from the inside. PC my arse!

Okay, I feel much better now. End of discussion for me, because this is about as volatile as politics -- no winners when you wrestle with the pig in the mud, and the pig likes it.

In my view, the real question is: does a judge have the right to disregard a law he has sworn to uphold, or should he change careers and become an advocate for changing laws, without wearing the robe that is sworn to uphold them? God has nothing to do with it--man's law does in this case.

Perhaps the judge who dislikes the word God on our money should tear his dollars up in court and show complete disregard for his privileged position (yes, it is a privilege of the state to be a judge, just like it is a privilege to drive a car that demands you not take speeding limits into your own hands).

In answer to Botofogo's query: out-of-state timber companies (such as John Hancock) own millions of acres of Alabama and pay virtually no taxes. Their tax rates could be tripled and they would still be the lowest in the U.S.

They, along with the corporate chicken farmers, have done a masterful job of institutionalizing their protected position -- it's written into the state constitution. Proposed changes, supported by teachers and even the Business Council of Alabama, are being battled by the Alabama Christian Coalition, which is openly funded by the big land-owners groups.

(I'll note that we do have a very regressive sales tax which taxes poor folks buying loaves and fishes up to 10% -- a literal tithe.)

There is some indication that Roy Moore, the Christian Coalition, and their allies are using this whole 10 Commandments thing as a smoke-screen to distract from the current drive to make lawmakers more accountable for spending and to have a less regressive tax structure. THAT should be the lead story in the news.

Roy Moore is NOT doing this out of idealism. He is a one-note opportunist who was a Circuit Judge in a rural county and has already ridden this to election as the highest judicial post in the state -- and the highest-paid state judicial post in the nation.

He snuck the washing-machine-sized graven image into the courthouse in the middle of the night, witnessed only by a film crew from Coral Ridge Ministries.

Now the Christian Coalition has brought in these hired guns from something called the Christian Defense Council to keep the matter stirred up.

Personally, I'm as religious as anybody (not bragging). I sing in the choir, have taught Sunday School, and serve on my church board of directors. Matters of faith are very important to me -- but they are also very personal.

I have to howl whenever Roy Moore claims to be channeling both Jehovah AND the founding fathers. Jefferson, Franklin and Adams would find that his brains are filled with pudding, and his intent and manners are base.

I think that he is recreating the strategy of George Wallace, who made a very successful career out of appealing to the basest fears of the least-educated and most-fearful people.

I have my own private fears for the state of Alabama's collective soul: there are enslaved Chinese and Thai girls at massages on the interstate; popular culture is becoming more of a cesspool; and our little corner of the Bible belt has some of the highest rates of alcoholism, drug abuse, and STD's in the civilized world.

It is truly getting to be a sad country when we are fighting over 10 statements taken from a book that stand for virtous qualitys we all should strive for in our lives.
But, NO!!! We can't have this! Because...... Well, it's from the Bible! And Jehovah God was the one that spoke these words. And Horrors of all Horrors, WHAT IF PEOPLE ACTUALY READ THESE WORDS - AND THEN WHAT IF THEY LIVED BY THESE WORDS!!! WHAT KIND OF COUNTRY WOULD WE HAVE THEN!
Well, we might go back to the days of kids in the schools, whose worst offinsive behavier is chewing gum and talking in class.
But, we have addvanced soooooo much since the 10 Comandments have been taken out of the schools. Remember Columbine?

And the seperation of church and state was to keep the state out of the church, not the church out of the state.

[quote]Originally posted by tandkvd:
[b]It is truly getting to be a sad country when we are fighting over 10 statements taken from a book that stand for virtous qualitys we all should strive for in our lives. [/b][/quote]

"I am the Lord your god have no other gods before me."
"Don't take the Lord's name in vain."
"Don't make graven images of God."
"Keep the Sabbath holy."

That's four out of ten that aren't general moral guidelines but specific religious guidelines. The Ten Commandments aren't good moral guidelines for everyone they're a set of religious edicts that has no place in a courthouse that purports to be neutral regarding religion.

[quote]Originally posted by tandkvd:
[b]And the separation of church and state was to keep the state out of the church, not the church out of the state.
[/b][/quote]

I won't claim to be able to channel the spirits of the authors of the bill of rights but I do find that theory hard to reconcile with the writings of the founding fathers. Here are some quotes from Madison and Jefferson.

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." - Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823

But on a wine related note I understand that Maderia was the wine of choice in the young USA. Are there any that you'd point me towards?

Great stuff Tyrell. As to Madeira, I love Blandy's Bual and Sercial, the 5 year Old versions, and Malmsey 10 year Old. George Washington's inauguration was celebrated with madeira, and Jefferson sometimes acted as Washington's wine steward. At the time, Madeira was shipped to America, tax free.

Auburnwine: one thing an extremist does not want to hear is a fact stuck into the agrument...

Hey Ty, don't be embarrassed, look at what you taught us about the Federalist Papers. And that led to the bit of information that foodie enlightended us with about the founders'wine affinities. Maybe that explains their erudition and foresight. Who knows,Mason's and Jefferson's drafting of the Declaration may have been toasted with wine, rather than ale.

Tyrrell, those are some good arguments. However my wife is a History Major and can give such arguments to back up what I said as well.
But I am shure that I have as much chance of changing your mind as you have of changing mine.

So, if your ever in the area we could pop a couple bottles of Vino and discuss more pressing issues. Such as wine shipping laws and corks vs. screwcaps.

Besides I can see Gen. IK up in Maine giving us THE LOOK. Almost as good as my wife. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]