scott123

Part of what you're paying for with the Caputo is shipping from Canada (for a considerable percentage of the flour) and shipping to the U.S., both of which have no impact on flour quality. I'm not necessarily saying it's General Mills, but if an American miller could, rather than ship flour back and forth to Europe (and other parts of the world), just mill North American wheat to Neapolitan standards, it would be comparable to Caputo at a lower price.

American's have a pretty poor history of imitating the Italians. I mentioned Forno Bravo earlier. Forno Bravo is a relatively small company. Their lipstick-on-a-pig 'Napolino' oven embarrassment might have been just a matter of no one on their staff knowing any better. General Mills is not Forno Bravo. They have a humongous R&D department. They should know Caputo like the back of their hand- and their equally numerous and well paid marketing folks should grasp the fact that if the GM Neapolitan flour can't bake up the same way as Caputo, people won't buy it. At least, in theory, someone should grasp these basic concepts over at GM. Whether or not this common sense rises high enough to reach the decision makers, we shall see. As angry as I am at GM for their lack of forthrightness, though, I'm not completely giving up hope on the flour.

Just like Italian ovens don't possess any special voodoo that makes them the only ovens that can produce great Neapolitan pizza, Italian millers don't have a monopoly on cutting edge milling science. All it takes is someone to understand how the Neapolitans are milling their wheat and mimic it- and this new product is proof that a pretty big R&D department is at least trying to achieve this goal.

Part of what you're paying for with the Caputo is shipping from Canada (for a considerable percentage of the flour) and shipping to the U.S., both of which have no impact on flour quality. I'm not necessarily saying it's General Mills, but if an American miller could, rather than ship flour back and forth to Europe (and other parts of the world), just mill North American wheat to Neapolitan standards, it would be comparable to Caputo at a lower price.

I bet you would be surprised how little of the cost of a bag of Caputo is ocean freight. Ocean freight is very inexpensive per pound on densely packable, heavy cargo such as wheat and flour.

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General Mills is not Forno Bravo. They have a humongous R&D department. They should know Caputo like the back of their hand- and their equally numerous and well paid marketing folks should grasp the fact that if the GM Neapolitan flour can't bake up the same way as Caputo, people won't buy it.

No, they should know that people who use Caputo probably wonít switch to it. That doesnít mean other pizzerias that donít use Caputo for one reason or another (cost, availability, etc.) wonít buy it. Caputoís share of the total US pizza market is miniscule. How many pizzerias donít use Caputo simply because itís not available? Houston is the fourth largest city in the US, and not a single distributor here carries Caputo Pizzeria. You can get it from Dallas Ė for $45/bagÖ GM has one of the largest foodservice distribution networks in the country. I doubt there is a single broadline foodservice distributor that isnít getting multiple trucks from GM weekly.

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At least, in theory, someone should grasp these basic concepts over at GM. Whether or not this common sense rises high enough to reach the decision makers, we shall see. As angry as I am at GM for their lack of forthrightness, though, I'm not completely giving up hope on the flour.

Enough already with the righteous indignation. If you were GM, you probably wouldnít disclose the W to Norma either. If she was the Senior Vice President of R&D at Dominoís or Pappa Johns, then maybe you would in the larger context, but if Iím right about why they donít disclose it, you have zero incentive to discuss it with some random person Ė let alone publish it. My guess is that they can significantly reduce the cost of the flour by loosening up the specs. By doing so, they would greatly expand the wheat that can be used (and they arenít bidding against Caputo for the same wheat). This and efficient production and distribution are how you meaningfully lower cost Ė not by avoiding ocean freight. If the flour performs and is reasonably consistent, who cares? Why do you need to know the W if they are giving you free flour to try?

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Just like Italian ovens don't possess any special voodoo that makes them the only ovens that can produce great Neapolitan pizza, Italian millers don't have a monopoly on cutting edge milling science. All it takes is someone to understand how the Neapolitans are milling their wheat and mimic it- and this new product is proof that a pretty big R&D department is at least trying to achieve this goal.

No, it doesnít prove anything of the sort. It suggests that GM sees a profitable market for the flour, and that doesnít necessarily mean they need to take a single bag of Caputo business. They probably think they will, but I bet that is not the core of the business case for the new flour. If they were trying to mimic the Neapolitans, it would be 00, they would supply the full rheological specifications, and they would be knocking at the door of the AVPN. GM is not here with this flour to pay homage to Neapolitan tradition. GM sees the growing market for wood fired pizza, and they know Caputo (or any other Neapolitan flour for that matter) doesnít now and likely never will have the distribution to be a competitor in most markets. My guess is this is the thought behind the flour. The target is the guy making wood fired pizza with AP not Caputo.

In this end, it probably comes down to marketing. Caputo doesnít even rise to the level of a pimple on GMís butt. How many people are there in the US selling Caputo? Zero? I doubt that Fred at Orlando is making many sales calls. GM has at least one and probably multiple reps in every market. GM runs promotions and pays sales incentives to distributor sales people. GM has rebate programs for customers. Outside of NYC, very few broadline distributors have or need a relationship with Caputo. They all have a relationship with GM, and GM pays them $millions in slotting fees, marketing fees, rebates, and other sheltered income. GM will get distributor support. Caputo wont. I bet there isn't a single broadline distributor and few specialty distributors outside of NYC and a couple other markets that wouldn't love to stop carrying Caputo if they carry it. Small vendors are just a pain in the rear.

My guess is that there is ample opportunity for this product in areas where Caputo is not available, but where Caputo is available, if the flour can come even close to Caputo, broadline reps will be undercutting the heck of the specialty guys selling Caputo to try to get business they donít currently have. A few may switch, but many wonít even if it is just as good and less expensive. Caputo is a powerful name in some markets. Itís a known quantity. Itís may not be worth risking your reputation over a few bucks/bag of flour. GM knows this. I highly doubt they are basing their success with this product on NYC.

Logged

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza." Craig's Neapolitan Garage

If I had a WFO, I'd be buying the Caputo 55lb. sacks. I can get them for $28 a bag, from Maine Source in North Syracuse. I have used the Caputo pizzeria flour before for foccacia that had potatoes in the dough and it was wonderful. Entirely different application though.

Norma;The "W" factor for flours is arrived at through the use of the Alveograph which is basically a machine that blows a bubble and measures the volume of the dough bubble. It was designed for use with soft wheat varieties as well as European wheat varieties but it is not well suited to use with the stronger U.S. and Canadian hard wheat varieties as results are not consistent. This is why you don't see much reference to it in our wheat flour specifications.Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Norma;The "W" factor for flours is arrived at through the use of the Alveograph which is basically a machine that blows a bubble and measures the volume of the dough bubble. It was designed for use with soft wheat varieties as well as European wheat varieties but it is not well suited to use with the stronger U.S. and Canadian hard wheat varieties as results are not consistent. This is why you don't see much reference to it in our wheat flour specifications.Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks for explaining that the ďWĒ factor for flours is arrived though the use of the Alveograph, which is basically a machine that blows a bubble to measure the volume of the dough bubble. Jeff just posted a link about using compressed air to show how compressed air can make a dough ball with more gluten blow up. I thought that was neat. I didn't know the Alveograph was designed for use with soft wheat varieties as well as European wheat varieties, but is not well suited to use with stronger US and Canadian hard wheat varieties. I now can understand why not much is referenced to the W in our flours in the US. You are always a source of information.

scott123

The "W" factor for flours is arrived at through the use of the Alveograph which is basically a machine that blows a bubble and measures the volume of the dough bubble. It was designed for use with soft wheat varieties as well as European wheat varieties but it is not well suited to use with the stronger U.S. and Canadian hard wheat varieties as results are not consistent.

Neapolitan flour is a blend of Canadian and European wheat. If the Alveograph can work successfully on a blend, it should work fine on domestic flour- especially if the protein levels are consistent between the two.

Just because the Alveograph is more commonly used in Europe doesn't mean that it has no use for American millers- or for the American public seeking Italian flour analogs.

If I had a WFO, I'd be buying the Caputo 55lb. sacks. I can get them for $28 a bag, from Maine Source in North Syracuse. I have used the Caputo pizzeria flour before for foccacia that had potatoes in the dough and it was wonderful. Entirely different application though.

Thanks for the tip! Just called Maine Source Restaurant Supply in Scranton, and they will get a 55 lb bag of Caputo for me tomorrow! Anybody need some Caputo in my area, I will be glad to sell smaller bags at cost. I just ordered a Blackstone Oven! Neapolitan here I come!! Mark

Thanks for the tip! Just called Maine Source Restaurant Supply in Scranton, and they will get a 55 lb bag of Caputo for me tomorrow! Anybody need some Caputo in my area, I will be glad to sell smaller bags at cost. I just ordered a Blackstone Oven! Neapolitan here I come!! Mark

Glad to have helped. Good luck with the Blackstone! I'm looking forward to seeing pics and comments on what you think of the oven. Diana

Scott;It's not that it doesn't work, it just doesn't provide consistently accurate results with our hard wheat flours. Our research has now moved past the common laboratory testing methods (Alveograph, Farinograph, Mixograph, Extensograph) for determining flour quality as we are now exploring Infrared as a rapid quality assessment tool. We can now give you protein content, dough absorption, and mixing time date in less than a minute using IR. We are presently working on finished loaf volume (a true test for flour quality) using IR correlation too.These are interesting and changing times that we live in.Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Our research has now moved past the common laboratory testing methods (Alveograph, Farinograph, Mixograph, Extensograph) for determining flour quality as we are now exploring Infrared as a rapid quality assessment tool. We can now give you protein content, dough absorption, and mixing time date in less than a minute using IR. We are presently working on finished loaf volume (a true test for flour quality) using IR correlation too.These are interesting and changing times that we live in.Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

I didn't know the research has now moved to exploring infrared technology as a rapid quality assessment tool for flours. The finished loaf volume using infrared is interesting too.

Norma;As you may already know, all of the existing flour quality assessment/measuring methods are somewhat time consuming, and to some extent accuracy of results contingent upon operator technique. The use of IR addresses both of these issues, but that isn't the driving force behind our work, as our world population grows, producing food will become ever more problematic and critical. The conceptual vision of a bakery in the future (we're only talking at most, 50-years) is one that is essentially fully automated. The variability of flour has presented the greatest challenge to developing this bakery. Our work is targeted toward using IR to measure (in real time) the absorption and mixing time characteristics of the flour, and then to make automatic changes as needed to produce doughs that are consistently the same (remember GIGO). We also use IR to look for specific ingredients in the dough to ensure the automated ingredient delivery systens are functioning properly. The level of confidence here needs to be high enough to allow for automated correction of any ingredient(s) during the dough mixing cycle, all without human intervention. The rest of the processing line is pretty straight forward and pretty well automated to a hands-off level already today. A good example of this is in the Rheon Bakery in Orange, California. The Rheon Company operates a bakery there making croissants to the tune of several thousand pounds per hour with only two people operating the entire line, and most of the time those two people are pushing brooms doing light cleanup work. If anyone is ever out in this area, check to see about getting a tour of the bakery...it's pretty amazing.Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Norma;As you may already know, all of the existing flour quality assessment/measuring methods are somewhat time consuming, and to some extent accuracy of results contingent upon operator technique. The use of IR addresses both of these issues, but that isn't the driving force behind our work, as our world population grows, producing food will become ever more problematic and critical. The conceptual vision of a bakery in the future (we're only talking at most, 50-years) is one that is essentially fully automated. The variability of flour has presented the greatest challenge to developing this bakery. Our work is targeted toward using IR to measure (in real time) the absorption and mixing time characteristics of the flour, and then to make automatic changes as needed to produce doughs that are consistently the same (remember GIGO). We also use IR to look for specific ingredients in the dough to ensure the automated ingredient delivery systens are functioning properly. The level of confidence here needs to be high enough to allow for automated correction of any ingredient(s) during the dough mixing cycle, all without human intervention. The rest of the processing line is pretty straight forward and pretty well automated to a hands-off level already today. A good example of this is in the Rheon Bakery in Orange, California. The Rheon Company operates a bakery there making croissants to the tune of several thousand pounds per hour with only two people operating the entire line, and most of the time those two people are pushing brooms doing light cleanup work. If anyone is ever out in this area, check to see about getting a tour of the bakery...it's pretty amazing.Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

I think I know somewhat (but never really watched the processes of of how thing are done, which I would love to watch how those process are done) of assessment/measuring methods, but really didn't know that the accuracy of the results are contingent upon operator techniques. I would also love to watch the use of IR in seeing how that works. I find what you posted that in the future that things will be mostly fully automated interesting in higher volume businesses. I do know that consistency in doughs does depend on the variability of flour, etc, but also didn't know all what you posted. That is very interesting stuff to me. I don't recall what GIGO stands for and don't think I every heard that before, unless my brain is failing me.

Rep BIOJackie graduated from the University of Kentucky in 2009. After graduation she began her career with Frito Lay. In January 2012 Jackie joined the General Mills convenience team and moved to Raleigh, NC. In March 2013 she joined the Bakeries and Foodservice team.

Fun FactJackie is a die hard Kentucky Wildcat basketball fan and even was one of the mascots for two years in college.

Rep BIOJackie graduated from the University of Kentucky in 2009. After graduation she began her career with Frito Lay. In January 2012 Jackie joined the General Mills convenience team and moved to Raleigh, NC. In March 2013 she joined the Bakeries and Foodservice team.

Fun FactJackie is a die hard Kentucky Wildcat basketball fan and even was one of the mascots for two years in college.

JJ,

I think the jig might be up if I push it too hard!!

I'll start with the generous sharing offer you've made and take it from there.

If you had told me you were communicating with some nameless operator in Duluth or something I might go for it, but I think I'll hold off.

On th eother hand, I've got an autographed John Calipari hat that she might want to trade for!!! Hunter would be M-A-D!!! (its his hat!)