1 --- Upon commencing at 10:33 a.m.
2
3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is
4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden
5 presiding. Please be seated.
6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good
7 morning. Good morning everybody. Nice to see everybody
8 back again. Hope everybody had a happy Easter.
9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning. The
10 Commission calls as its next witness, Joan Goldi.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mrs. Goldi.
12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good
13 morning.
14 MS. JOAN GOLDI: Good morning.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Mrs. Goldi, do you prefer
16 to swear on the Bible, affirm or use an alternate oath?
17 MS. JOAN GOLDI: I don't know. What's
18 the difference?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Which do you prefer?
20 MS. JOAN GOLDI: I'll affirm.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Affirm? Very good then.
22 State your name in full for us please.
23 MS. JOAN GOLDI: Joan Catherine Goldi.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
25

10

1 JOAN CATHERINE GOLDI, Sworn:
2
3 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA.
4 Q: Thank you very much, Mrs. Goldi. I
5 understand that you are here as a result of a summons
6 served by the Commission?
7 A: That's correct.
8 Q: And it was served on you in your
9 personal capacity and in your capacity as a director and
10 officer of Goldi Productions Limited?
11 A: That's correct.
12 Q: You currently reside at 1409 Malibu
13 Terrace in Mississauga, Ontario?
14 A: That's correct.
15 Q: And you are currently a director of
16 Goldi Productions Limited and have been since 1984?
17 A: That's correct.
18 Q: And you have been an officer, namely
19 the secretary of the company, since 1984?
20 A: I guess so if that's my position.
21 You seem to have looked at my papers more than I have
22 lately.
23 Q: All right. Well, we did take the
24 opportunity to conduct something called a corporate
25 search and you are -- have been president since 1990?

11

1 A: Okay. If you say so.
2 Q: Do you have any reason to dispute my
3 question? Thank you.
4 A: No, my husband and I think -- I think
5 switched vice president and president, we don't know
6 which is which.
7 Q: And your husband is John Goldi?
8 A: That's correct.
9 Q: And he also is a director and officer
10 of Goldi Productions Limited?
11 A: Yes.
12 Q: And he resides at 1409 Malibu Terrace
13 with you?
14 A: Yes.
15 Q: I also understand that Goldi
16 Productions Limited's registered head address is 1409
17 Malibu Terrace in Mississauga?
18 A: That's correct.
19 Q: And are you the person that primarily
20 responsible for filing the company's annual filings with
21 the Ministry of Consumer and Business Services?
22 A: Yes.
23
24 (BRIEF PAUSE)
25

12

1 Q: And you and Mr. Goldi are the only
2 officers and director of the company?
3 A: That's correct.
4 Q: And you are the only shareholders of
5 the company?
6 A: That's correct.
7 Q: Your studio or the company's studio
8 is also located in your house at 1409 Malibu Terrace?
9 A: That's correct.
10 Q: The business of Goldi Productions
11 Limited is the making of documentaries?
12 A: Documentaries and educational
13 material, yes.
14 Q: Thank you. Audio visual material?
15 A: Some is audio visual, some is
16 written.
17 Q: All right. And are you primarily the
18 producer of these materials?
19 A: Yes. Well, my husband and I are both
20 producers.
21 Q: All right.
22 A: But I do the main job of the liaison
23 and things like that.
24 Q: And I understand that Mr. Goldi's
25 primary role is as a cameraman and director?

13

1 A: Cameraman, director and editor.
2 Q: And editor. Thank you. I understand
3 that your company has won many awards for its
4 documentaries.
5 A: That's correct.
6 Q: I also understand that your husband
7 and you, under the auspices of your company, conducted a
8 number of interviews with individuals who were then
9 residing at the former Camp Ipperwash after the shooting
10 death of Anthony O'Brien George?
11 A: Yes, several months after.
12 Q: And these interviews were conducted
13 at the Camp Ipperwash facilities?
14 A: Yes. I believe all of them were, as
15 far as I can recall; it was a long time ago.
16 Q: And I understand that these
17 interviews were conducted generally between December of
18 1995 and February of 1996?
19 A: They may have gone on until March but
20 I think, yes, I think primarily in that period, most of
21 them being in -- I'm not sure, I'd have to check my
22 dates.
23 Q: All right. But that --
24 A: That general period, yes.
25 Q: Thank you. And these interviews were

14

1 conducted in the presence of yourself and Mr. Goldi?
2 A: Yes.
3 Q: And was there anyone else present
4 aside from the interviewee?
5 A: I can't recall. I think it was
6 mostly just us and the interviewee; there may have been
7 other people in the room at the time.
8 Q: All right. Now, how did you obtain
9 access to these individuals inside Camp Ipperwash?
10 A: We initially -- well, we had a small
11 development project after the -- after the shooting,
12 because we had, once upon a time, proposed to CBC a
13 program on the -- on Ipperwash because we had an interest
14 in that area and we'd worked with native people as
15 teachers and as filmmakers in the Canadian North for a
16 long time.
17 So after the events at Ipperwash in
18 September, CBC called us and said, Do you think you could
19 go and find out what's really going on. And we said,
20 Well, we'd try.
21 And we -- we asked through several
22 organizations to help us; I think the -- as I recall, I
23 think the Chiefs of Ontario, and we called a couple of
24 other groups who knew people that we knew in the North.
25 And several people came and interviewed us and checked us

15

1 out and then they helped us make the introductions to
2 people at Ipperwash.
3 And we explained to people that we -- we
4 basically wanted to find out what was going on. We
5 didn't believe that the newspapers were necessarily
6 telling us exactly what was going on. We lived in small
7 native communities in the North as teachers and worked
8 with people as -- as filmmakers. And we knew that what
9 went on in the press was not always the full truth of
10 what went on.
11 So we spent a lot of time just talking to
12 people. And we basically concluded that -- that what was
13 in the newspapers was not really what was happening. And
14 for our development report to CBC we said, People told us
15 that there were no guns at Ipperwash, everybody told us,
16 and we said we --
17 Q: I wonder -- I wonder if I could just
18 stop you there.
19 A: Sure.
20 Q: I -- rather than telling us what
21 other people told you, what I'm -- I just wanted to know
22 how it was that you managed to get into the facility and
23 to talk to these people --
24 A: Okay.
25 Q: -- and I think you've indicated that

16

1 you -- you were -- that introductions were facilitated,
2 that you spoke to these people for a long time.
3 And then did they agree or some of them
4 agreed to be interviewed by you for purposes of a
5 possible documentary?
6 A: That was after we'd been there a long
7 time. Like, we went -- we really got to know people
8 because, well, because we liked them basically, I guess.
9 Q: All right. And as a result then, you
10 conducted a number of interviews; is that correct?
11 A: That's right.
12 Q: And --
13 A: But, excuse me, I'd like to say
14 something else first. At this point, by the time we
15 conducted the interviews, CBC had told us that they would
16 not go ahead with the documentary. They -- they
17 basically told us, when we put in our report to them,
18 that they didn't believe what we said or they had reason
19 to doubt.
20 They -- they told us we were, to quote, we
21 were too much on the side of the Indians and they were
22 not going to go ahead with the documentary and they'd
23 finish out the development proposal. But, we said, We
24 are going to go ahead and try and record interviews
25 anyway --

1 parameter?
2 Q: What I -- what I mean is, what was
3 the -- what were the areas that you sought to cover in
4 your interviews?
5 A: Events surrounding the shooting and
6 also people's relationship to Camp Ipperwash and the
7 historical leading up to it.
8 Q: All right.
9 A: And the events that happened the
10 night of the shooting and close to that time.
11 Q: All right. Now, I just want to have
12 an understanding of the process of the interview. Was
13 there a preliminary interview that you conducted prior to
14 filming the interview?
15 A: By the time we interviewed each
16 person we knew that person very well and they knew us and
17 trusted us because otherwise you can't get a good
18 interview. And basically we turned the camera on and we
19 asked the -- the people to talk.
20 We -- we already knew from them what they
21 wanted -- I shouldn't say what they wanted to say, what
22 their background was on the -- on the part of the story
23 that we were interested in. And we basically turned the
24 camera on and let them talk and when they ran out of
25 things to say we would prompt them by saying, Could you

19

1 please tell us about such and such.
2 Q: All right. And the people asking the
3 questions, did that alternate between yourself and Mr.
4 Goldi?
5 A: Yes, hmm hmm.
6 Q: I understand you also interviewed
7 Marcel Beaubien?
8 A: Yeah.
9 Q: And that was --
10 A: He didn't -- he didn't say much.
11 Q: And that was in his office in -- on
12 or about March the 14th, 1996?
13 A: I can't remember when it was, but
14 that sounds about right. Hmm hmm.
15 Q: All right. And I also understand
16 that you and your husband viewed certain broken picnic
17 tables on or about December the 5th, 1995, that were
18 located at the MNR parking lot, which was formerly the
19 site of the Tactical Operation Centre?
20 A: Yes. That was after hunting high and
21 low for them. We hunted all up and down the coast, we
22 went up to the -- I shouldn't say the coast -- the shore,
23 and we went up to the Pinery.
24 We searched all there -- all there, piles
25 of tables. Like, when people told us the story about

20

1 sitting on the tables and the police cruisers coming and
2 hitting the tables, we honestly could not believe that
3 this would happen, and so we were curious. So we hunted
4 high and low and we finally found broken picnic tables
5 and they were, as you say, right beside the site where I
6 believe the OPP had had their headquarters.
7 Q: All right. I understand you also
8 recorded other objects which may be associated with the
9 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park and, for example,
10 you recorded footage of Dudley George's -- what has been
11 called Dudley George's ambulance or Pierre George's car?
12 A: I don't know, I'm not the
13 cinematographer. I wasn't there when that was done.
14 Q: That was something that Mr. Goldi
15 did?
16 A: I don't know.
17 Q: Well, you viewed it, you have seen
18 it.
19 A: I don't think I have seen it, to tell
20 you the truth.
21 Q: All right.
22 A: Like, a lot of the footage I have not
23 seen. That was put away for nine (9) years and there's
24 too much footage to have gone through.
25 Q: I appreciate it, but you'll recall

21

1 that certain members from the Commission attended at your
2 studio in April and May of 2004, and in your presence
3 certain videos were shared with members of the
4 Commission?
5 A: Excuse me. I was not there. Peter
6 Rehak told me not to bother showing up for that showing.
7 Q: There were two (2) showings.
8 A: That's right. That was the second
9 one that was on May 10th, that's when according to what
10 you've written to us that footage you saw, but I was not
11 there.
12 Q: Fair enough. You're also aware that
13 Goldi Productions Limited has footage of what has been
14 called the "OPP Who" car also known as Robert Isaac's
15 former car?
16 A: We had a little of it. But we didn't
17 have much because for the documentary that we finally
18 made, we had to buy it from CBC and CTV's footage. The
19 footage that was in the documentary was all purchased
20 from them.
21 Q: All right.
22 A: Of the "OPP Who" car.
23 Q: Now, do you recall having interviewed
24 any other individuals associated with the events of
25 September the 6th, 1995, other than whom I have listed?

22

1 A: I haven't got -- I haven't got a list
2 with me.
3 Q: Well, Mrs. Goldi, did you not refresh
4 your memory knowing that you were summonsed to come
5 today?
6 A: No. You just asked me -- you didn't
7 ask me to speak. You just asked me to show up with this
8 tape. If you'd asked me I might have brought a list.
9 Q: All right. Did your company maintain
10 a catalogue of tapes identifying what was on each tape?
11 A: No.
12 Q: How did you keep record then of your
13 various tapes?
14 A: Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, when they come
15 out of the camera, and they were put away. We had a
16 total of way over a hundred (100) tapes. A hun --
17 somewhere between a hundred and sixty (160) and two
18 hundred (200) tapes. And they were numbered.
19 And they were dated and when -- when we
20 finally began the project on the documentary again last
21 year, when CBC did a development contract and then
22 commissioned the documentary, we had to start going
23 through and logging tapes.
24 We viewed the week before your first
25 viewing, when you came to our place. We spent about

23

1 sixty (60) hours going through the tapes day and night --
2 Q: Well --
3 A: -- trying to figure out what was on -
4 - on them so that we could find some that you would find
5 useful.
6 Q: And when you say one hundred (100) to
7 two hundred (200) tapes dated --
8 A: No. A hundred and sixty (160) to two
9 hundred (200) tapes because --
10 Q: All right. Thank you.
11 A: -- we shot for a long time. We also
12 did a lot of material with people when -- on the
13 followup. Like we were at a lot of meetings and things
14 like that where -- where people were trying to get the
15 land claim solved.
16 Q: All right. These tapes were
17 consecutively numbered and dated?
18 A: Well, I think John probably kept a
19 log of the dates, but they were numbered, yeah.
20 Q: And a log that would say --
21 A: No. We didn't keep a log.
22 Q: Well, I thought you just said that --
23 A: No. We put the numbers, it's called
24 a pencil. You take the tape, you take it out of the
25 camera and put a number on it.

24

1 Q: All right.
2 A: You put it in the box.
3 Q: You segregated the tapes so that they
4 would not be confused with other tapes that you would
5 have relating to other projects?
6 A: Yeah.
7 Q: Is that fair?
8 A: Yeah, they were put in boxes.
9 Q: All right. Were the boxes labelled?
10 A: Ipperwash.
11 Q: Thank you. And how long -- how much
12 footage would be contained in terms of minutes on each
13 tape, on average?
14 A: They're half hour tapes.
15 Q: And how long, typically, were the
16 interviews that you conducted of each of the inter --
17 individuals?
18 A: The series of interviews? It varied
19 from one (1) or two (2) tapes to -- I -- I don't know how
20 long the longest one was. Maybe three (3), four (4) five
21 (5) tapes.
22 Q: And did you maintain the underlying
23 raw unedited tapes of these recordings?
24 A: Pardon?
25 Q: Did you maintain the raw and unedited

25

1 tapes of these recordings?
2 A: Did we retain them?
3 Q: Did you keep them?
4 A: Well, we kept them. I'm not sure
5 what you're asking me.
6 Q: Well, I --
7 A: We made a documentary.
8 Q: Yes.
9 A: Obviously we had tapes to make the
10 documentaries.
11 Q: And after you made your documentary,
12 which I understand was over the course of this past
13 summer and it aired the fall --
14 A: That's right.
15 Q: -- did -- did you continue to
16 maintain the tapes?
17 A: The tapes that we had -- actually the
18 tapes that were in the show have disappeared and we have
19 no idea where they went. We were running two (2)
20 projects in the summer. We had a horrendous deadline.
21 We had four (4) students working in our house. And we
22 don't know where the show tapes are.
23 They were kept in a separate box in the
24 editing room, but after the -- after the editing was done
25 -- like you don't use them once you've digitized them --

26

1 you don't go back to the tapes. And when we went --
2 finally went to hunt for them when you wanted them, we
3 can't find the show tapes anywhere. We have no idea
4 where they are.
5 Q: Now, when you say that you digitized
6 them, can you explain to me what -- what that means?
7 A: Well, John did the digitizing. It
8 means you run the tape into the computer.
9 Q: All right. And did -- and did you do
10 that at your studio?
11 A: That's right.
12 Q: And so is there a record of the
13 digitized version of these recordings?
14 A: What do you mean a record?
15 Q: Well, do you have a digitized
16 recording? Do you still have that data?
17 A: The digitized recording?
18 Q: Yes.
19 A: No, we wipe that off the disks when
20 they're through, the storage is too expensive. It comes
21 off the drives when the show is over.
22 Q: What tapes do you have remaining,
23 then, relating to these -- to the Ipperwash-related
24 interviews?
25 A: All the ones that were left in the

27

1 boxes that weren't part of the show.
2 Q: All right. And where are those
3 tapes, currently?
4 A: They're all in our house in the
5 editing studio and in the storage room upstairs.
6 Q: Did you provide a duplicate copy of
7 the -- the tapes that you used for the documentary that
8 aired on CBC to the CBC?
9 A: Why would we supply them to the CBC?
10 No.
11 Q: I'm asking the question --
12 A: The CBC has no rights to those.
13 Q: All right.
14 A: No, they have the -- they -- they
15 receive the master. Like, when you have a contract with
16 somebody you provide them with the finished master, but
17 they see the tapes as they go along. I mean, if they
18 want to view, they can look at -- they can look at
19 material. I mean they don't look at the tapes, they look
20 at the computer.
21 Q: All right. And if I understand it
22 correctly, you made these recordings back in 1995 and you
23 -- you managed to keep and maintain all of the tapes up
24 and through the summer, fall of 2004 for the production
25 of this CBC documentary?

28

1 A: Well, they -- they were in boxes,
2 they were stored in a room. That's what happens when you
3 do a show. You put them away and they're stored.
4 Q: Now, you -- you were noticed --
5 notified as early as the spring of 2004 that this
6 Commission was interested in viewing these tapes?
7 A: The -- in viewing the tapes?
8 Q: Yes.
9 A: Yes. I believe Peter Rehak contacted
10 me about the end of February or beginning of March,
11 something like that.
12 Q: And as a result, you made these tapes
13 or certain of them available for viewing by members of
14 the Commission in April and May of 2004?
15 A: That's correct.
16 Q: And these tapes all had audio
17 components, the interviews?
18 A: The interviews?
19 Q: Yes.
20 A: Yes.
21 Q: And starting in July of 2004,
22 Commission Counsel advised you of its interest in
23 obtaining copies -- certain of -- of -- certain of the
24 tapes?
25 A: Yeah, that's right.

29

1 Q: And this is before the CBC
2 documentary was made, obviously?
3 A: No, I'm sorry, it was after we had
4 started on it. The CBC documentary was finally
5 commissioned at the beginning of May.
6 Q: All right. Now, one (1) more
7 question, do you still have the computer on which the
8 digitized tapes were stored before they were erased?
9 A: Well, they're stored on external
10 drives from the computer.
11 Q: Okay. But do you still have the
12 computer and the hard drive?
13 A: The hard drive?
14 Q: Yes.
15 A: The computer is there.
16 Q: Excuse me. Sorry, go ahead?
17 A: We have the computer, but it's old,
18 it's not being used. It's been replaced with a new
19 system. It was at the end of its life.
20 Q: Do you still have the external hard
21 drive upon which the digitization occurred?
22 A: Hard drives?
23 Q: Yes, the external hard drives.
24 A: The hard drives are there.
25 Q: All right.

30

1 A: But the material's not on them,
2 they're being used for other shows.
3 Q: And where is this -- this piece of
4 equipment; is that at your home as well?
5 A: Yes.
6 Q: Thank you. Mrs. Goldi, under the
7 summons served upon you and your company you were
8 required to produce certain tapes today. And I'm going
9 to go through the list and ask you what it is, if
10 anything, that you have brought today.
11 First, we requested all raw, unaltered,
12 unedited audiovisual material, recording and interview
13 conducted and recorded under the auspices of Goldi
14 Productions Limited of the late Robert Isaac in relation
15 to events which occurred at Ipperwash Provincial Park
16 including the period from September 4th to 7th, 1995, and
17 the events leading to the occupation of Ipperwash
18 Provincial Park and CFB Camp Ipperwash, and immediately
19 following the shooting death of Anthony O'Brien Dudley
20 George.
21 Did you bring those tapes with you today?
22 A: I have the tape that my husband gave
23 me. You've got to ask him about the tapes, he makes the
24 tapes, I'm not an editor. But, yes, we have the tape of
25 -- that was made early on. When you -- when -- I think

31

1 it was Peter Rehak that first told me that the Commission
2 would want to view the tapes, like, it was a long time
3 after you came and viewed the other tapes.
4 And at that time I believe my husband made
5 a tape because he thought you might -- you had mentioned
6 when you were viewing it that you would want a tape of
7 Robert Isaac, and he made a tape at that point. And I
8 believe that's the one we've got. I don't know, I'm not
9 the editor.
10 Q: Well, you'll recall that -- that a
11 tape was received by the Commission and that the
12 Commission provided correspondence to you indicating that
13 the tape, when played, did not have any audio and
14 appeared only to be with respect to part of the interview
15 that was conducted by you of Robert Isaac; that is, that
16 part which pertained to the events of the evening of the
17 6th of September, but not the initial part of the
18 interview.
19 A: Well, I don't know which part of the
20 interview it had but it had audio when it went out of the
21 house because I told John to make sure, Let's check and
22 make sure there's audio. And I sat there and it was
23 played, and it had audio when it was sent to you.
24 The picnic tables didn't have audio
25 because there was never audio --

32

1 Q: Perhaps you could just --
2 A: -- in the original.
3 Q: -- stay right now with the Robert
4 Isaac.
5 A: Yeah.
6 Q: You have a tape in front of you, can
7 you -- is there a label on it?
8 A: "Robert Isaac Interview, Goldi
9 Productions Limited."
10 Q: All right. And you have advised me
11 this is a -- a duplicate copy of the tape that was
12 already sent to the Commission?
13 A: I don't know what tape it is. It's
14 the one my husband made and gave to me.
15 Q: Did you not have --
16 A: I'm not the editor.
17 Q: Why did your husband make it for you?
18 A: I don't know what you're asking me.
19 Q: Well, as you know, the Commission has
20 made numerous attempts to serve your husband, all of
21 which have failed.
22 A: Excuse me. That was with your guy
23 who pounded on the door when my husband was away and
24 wouldn't identify himself. He looks like something from
25 Satan's Choice Motorcycle Gang; I was scared out of my

33

1 wits.
2 Q: This is -- you were served by --
3 A: You -- you served it to Goldi
4 Productions Limited and the officers of Goldi Productions
5 Limited, so obviously he's going to show up. But I'm not
6 answering the door for a guy who looks like that when I'm
7 by myself in the house.
8 Q: Do you recall receiving an e-mail
9 from the Commission asking when Mr. Goldi would kindly
10 make himself available to be presented with the summons?
11 A: I didn't receive that e-mail.
12 Q: I'm going to show to you a copy of an
13 e-mail, it's addressed to
14 John.Goldi@GoldieProductions.com and to
15 JGoldi@Sympatico.ca; are these not the e-mail addresses
16 for your husband and for Goldi Productions?
17 A: They go into his computer, I don't
18 see them. We get hundreds of e-mails a day.
19 Q: That wasn't my question. Are those
20 the accurate e-mail addresses?
21 A: They're not my e-mail, no. They're
22 for Goldi Productions, yes.
23 Q: Thank you. And you are an officer
24 and director of Goldi Productions, are you not?
25 A: But I don't read all the e-mail.

34

1 Q: I'm going to show you a copy of the
2 e-mail provided.
3
4 (BRIEF PAUSE)
5
6 A: No, I've never seen this e-mail.
7 Q: For the record, the e-mail is dated
8 March 24, 2005. It's addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Goldi:
9 "I understand from our process server
10 that he has been unable to serve Mr.
11 John Goldi with a Summons to Witness
12 requiring him to appear to testify on
13 Wednesday March 30, 2005, despite
14 numerous attempts. Our process server
15 was, however, able to successfully
16 serve Mrs. Goldi with a virtually
17 identical summons. Mrs. Goldi has been
18 summonsed both in her personal capacity
19 and in her capacity as an officer and
20 director of Goldi Productions Limited.
21 I am writing to inquire as to when and
22 where Mr. Goldi would like to be
23 personally served prior to Wednesday,
24 March 30, 2005. If he does not wish to
25 make himself voluntarily available,

35

1 then I will seek an order from the
2 Commissioner allowing a form of
3 substitutional service. In terms of
4 Mrs. Goldi, please come to the Hearing
5 prepared to advise the Commissioner of
6 all the locations, addresses of any
7 place, receptacle or unit, including a
8 storage unit, security box or other
9 storage facility, at which Goldi
10 Productions Limited stores its audio
11 visual and related materials.
12 In Mr. Goldi's most recent letter to
13 us, he indicated that Goldi Productions
14 Limited were required by the terms of
15 its insurance to store these materials
16 off-site. If this is so, then as an
17 officer and director of the company,
18 Mrs. Goldi has access to this
19 information if, indeed, she doesn't
20 already know.
21 I expect that Mrs. Goldi will bring to
22 the Hearing on Wednesday, all of the
23 materials required by the summons,
24 which is identified by the summons."
25 Now, you've indicated that you did not

36

1 read this?
2 A: No, I haven't read the e-mail. I
3 read it now, yeah.
4 Q: And did Mr. Goldi indicate to you
5 that he had read this e-mail?
6 A: No, we don't discuss e-mail. We have
7 been up to our ears in work.
8 Q: Well, this --
9 A: And we planned to come here. You
10 served us, we came, he's there. We brought -- you can
11 have all the information you like; I can supply you with
12 that information. The -- the -- requiring materials to
13 be off-site, according to the insurance, is only during
14 production and that expires the day -- that insurance and
15 that requirement expires the day the show is broadcast.
16 Q: All right. Thank you. I'd like to
17 tender into evidence now, as the next exhibit, the e-mail
18 that we have just identified.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-286, Your
20 Honour.
21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-286.
22 Thank you very much.
23
24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-286: E-mail from Commission to Mr.
25 and Mrs. J. Goldi and Goldi

37

1 Productions, March 24/05.
2
3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Second, I'd like to
4 tender into evidence at this time, the tape which has
5 been brought by Mrs. Goldi, identified as -- as an -- as
6 the interview -- or we haven't established that it's a
7 partial interview or not, Commissioner, and we'll have to
8 view the tape in order to determine that, but let's mark
9 this as the next exhibit.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-287, Your
11 Honour.
12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-287.
13
14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-287: Videotape of Robert Isaac
15 interview with Mr. And Mrs.
16 Goldi, Goldi Productions
17 Limited.
18
19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
20 Q: Now, by the terms of the summons, you
21 were also required to produce today, all raw, unaltered,
22 unedited, audio visual material, recording, and an
23 interview conducted and recorded by you under the
24 auspices of Goldi Productions Limited of Perry George,
25 also known as Pierre George, the brother of the late

38

1 Dudley George, in relation to events which occurred at
2 Ipperwash Provincial Park, including the period from
3 September 4 to 7, 1995, the events leading to the
4 occupation of the Ipperwash Provincial Park and CFB Camp
5 Ipperwash and immediately following the shooting death of
6 Anthony O'Brien Dudley George.
7 Did you bring that tape with you today?
8 A: I don't have that tape.
9 Q: What happened to that tape?
10 A: I have no idea. We had -- during the
11 summer we were producing a show with the shortest -- from
12 beginning to air time for a major feature length
13 documentary that I've ever heard of. We had a very short
14 deadline.
15 We also had another project running. We
16 had four (4) students working for us, we were all in a
17 small space and we did all kinds of housecleaning and I
18 have no idea where those tapes went, they disappeared
19 somewhere. When we went to look for them towards the end
20 of October we couldn't find them anywhere. We have
21 hunted high and low, we've gone through everything.
22 I -- I mean, tapes get lost. We've had
23 people lose tapes in the -- the past. We've had
24 government people lose tapes, we've had lawyers lose
25 tapes.

39

1 Unfortunately, we don't know where the
2 show tapes were because as they were digitized, as far as
3 I know, they were thrown into a box in the editing room.
4 They were separated out from other tapes. I have no idea
5 where they are.
6 The only thing I can think of is that they
7 must have gone out by accident in a load of garbage,
8 because we were throwing out all kinds of old tapes.
9 We've been doing television for years and our house was
10 full of old tapes. It's -- I'm afraid it's been a bone
11 of some contention in our household.
12 Q: Now I want to also ask you, the
13 summons required you also to bring all raw, unaltered,
14 unedited audio visual material recorded and produced by
15 you under the auspices of Goldi Productions Limited of
16 the following scenes relating to the events which
17 occurred at Ipperwash Provincial Park between September 4
18 and 7, 1995.
19 Specifically broken picnic tables believed
20 to be the picnic tables removed by the OPP from the
21 Ipperwash Provincial Park area in or about September 5 or
22 6, 1995. Did you bring that with you today?
23 A: I don't have the originals of those.
24 Q: Well, copies will do.
25 A: You have a copy.

40

1 Q: Did you bring a copy today?
2 A: No, you have the only copy in
3 existence other than what is on the -- on the final
4 production of the show.
5 Q: Did Pierre George's car, the day he
6 retrieved the car from the police pound, the vehicle
7 called the "OPP Who" car, and any other audio visual
8 material scenes relating to the Ipperwash Provincial
9 Park, the CFB Camp Ipperwash and the site of the former
10 OPP Tactical Operations Centre located at the parking lot
11 operated by the Ministry of Natural Resources off from
12 East Parkway Drive.
13 Did you bring any of that footage with you
14 today?
15 A: I've never seen that footage. No, I
16 don't have it.
17 Q: Did you make enquiries of your
18 husband with respect to that as an officer and a director
19 of Goldi Productions?
20 A: Yes.
21 Q: And what was his response?
22 A: We don't have the tapes. I just told
23 you we hunted high and low for all the tapes.
24 Q: Mrs. Goldi, do you recall having a
25 conversation with Commission counsel to the affect that

41

1 you said that the Robert Isaac tape, in particular, had a
2 great amount of commercial value to you because he was
3 now deceased that it was one (1) of the hottest tapes
4 that you possessed?
5 A: I have never discussed any tape I own
6 in terms of commercial value; never.
7 Q: You indicated that it was -- the most
8 -- one (1) of the most valuable tapes that you possess;
9 did you not?
10 A: I have never discussed any kind of
11 commercial value. There is no commercial value to those
12 tapes.
13 Q: Well, let's do -- let's delete the
14 word "commercial." Did you not say to Commission Counsel
15 that the Robert Isaac tape, in particular, was a valuable
16 and important tape?
17 A: I have not used anything to do with
18 valuable. I may have said it's the best tape and it's
19 very important, but it has no commercial value. What you
20 interpret in terms of valuable and what I interpret, are
21 totally different.
22 All the good parts of Robert, all the
23 important parts are in the documentary. They're out in
24 the world doing all kinds of promotion of what Robert
25 wanted. To me as a filmmaker the important parts go into

42

1 the show, that's why you make a show. And I would never,
2 ever, purposefully lose any of my show tapes, believe me,
3 I never would.
4 But I have been working in a mess all
5 summer, piled up with lots of other people in a very
6 small space, computer works climbing all over each other.
7 Believe me, I would never lose tapes on purpose.
8 Q: Mrs. Goldi, these are tapes which you
9 managed to maintain from 1995 to 2004. These are tapes
10 which you knew the Commission had an interest in
11 reviewing. These are tapes that you knew since the
12 summer, the tapes that the Commission wished to have.
13 And you're telling me now that you don't
14 know where any of these tapes are, that they've been lost
15 somewhere. Coincidentally the tapes that we want. Not
16 the tapes -- all of the tapes, but just the tapes that we
17 want.
18 A: What do you mean the tapes that you
19 want? All the tapes --
20 Q: The tapes that were the subject of
21 the summons, Mrs. Goldi.
22 A: The tapes that were in the show, all
23 the tapes that were used in the show, that were pulled
24 out of the other boxes in storage. It was one (1) box
25 because it -- they were thrown in in the editing room as

43

1 they were digitized and that's the box we can't find.
2 It's all -- all the tapes that were used
3 in the documentary show and the interviews that were
4 digitized for it. And we -- we did make a tape, or my
5 husband made a tape early on in the season. As soon as
6 you indicated that you wanted the Robert Isaac tape, he
7 made a tape of it.
8 Q: The difficulty is, is that the tape
9 that your husband made was not of the entire Robert Isaac
10 interview and that -- and we determined that the sound
11 had been erased and a letter immediately --
12 A: Don't ask me.
13 Q: -- was directed to Goldi -- Mr.
14 Goldi, with respect to Goldi Productions Limited advising
15 of the mistake and asking for it to be rectified. The --
16 the offer was made to rectify the mistake, but we never -
17 - you never sent, nor did Goldi Productions send, the
18 revised tape.
19 A: Excuse me, I read the letter that he
20 wrote to you and he said that he would send it to you if
21 you wanted it as soon as you asked for it and you never
22 asked for it. I brought it today.
23
24 (BRIEF PAUSE)
25

44

1 Q: Now, we'll get back to that -- that
2 e-mail. I propose to produce to you what the
3 Commission's response was to that offer of invitation,
4 but before we get to that, we received -- the Commission
5 received from Goldi Productions Limited a letter dated
6 February 22, 2005. And I'm going to show you a copy of
7 this letter and then we'll review it.
8
9 (BRIEF PAUSE)
10
11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
13
14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
15 Q: Now, is this a letter that you have
16 seen before?
17 A: Hmm hmm.
18 Q: I'm sorry, could you say, "yes" for
19 the record, please?
20 A: Sorry, yes, I have seen this, hmm
21 hmm.
22 Q: Thank you. And it's addressed to
23 Susan Vella, the Ipperwash Inquiry, dated February 22,
24 2005?
25 A: That's right.

45

1 Q: The first paragraph reads:
2 "After talking to our lawyer we are
3 very worried that we face potential and
4 serious liability problems that will
5 result from your uncontrolled release
6 of our unedited raw footage to the
7 media and to the public."
8 And then six (6) paragraphs down, it's
9 written:
10 "Public use and release of our unedited
11 material in the way you demand could
12 leave us open to a lawsuit that could
13 force us into personal and corporate
14 bankruptcy."
15 A: Hmm hmm.
16 Q: And then onto the third page, please,
17 second paragraph -- or second page, excuse me. Quote:
18 "You cannot use any of this material in
19 public until you have provided us with
20 a -- with the protection we need with a
21 zero deductible E and O (phonetic)
22 insurance certificate as outlined
23 above.
24 A: Hmm hmm.
25 Q: Now, nowhere in this letter does it

46

1 suggest that the reason why the materials are not going
2 to be produced to us is because they are lost, but rather
3 because you received, apparently, advice to the effect
4 that by producing tapes to the Commission as evidence, it
5 would expose you to liability and you wished the
6 Commission to buy you an E and O insurance policy; isn't
7 that right?
8 A: That's with regard to the Robert --
9 to the tapes that we have. We've been threatened,
10 obviously. When you -- obviously, when you do a
11 documentary like that one, has threats from people -- the
12 bus chasing type of lawyers.
13 Q: And I'd like to know, please, without
14 getting into the details of any conversations, I'd like
15 to know the name of the lawyer that you consulted in
16 respect to this advice.
17 A: Ashton -- what's her last -- Kelly
18 Lynn Ashton (phonetic).
19 Q: Thank you.
20 A: She's the one who does our errors and
21 omissions insurance for CBC.
22 Q: And did you advise that this was --
23 the purpose of seeking these tapes was to tender as
24 exhibits at a Public Inquiry?
25 A: I'm -- I don't understand your

47

1 question.
2 Q: That the use of the tapes would be to
3 be produced for purposes of entering into evidence at a
4 Public Inquiry?
5 A: No, I discussed it just in very
6 general terms.
7 Q: Thank you.
8
9 (BRIEF PAUSE)
10
11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Give me a few minutes
12 to find the right document. Mr. Registrar, I would like
13 to hand up two (2) further documents for --
14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you
15 going top make the -- the letter of February 22nd --
16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes.
17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- an
18 exhibit?
19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. Thank you,
20 Commissioner.
21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think
22 you should.
23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The next exhibit
24 please.
25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That would

48

1 be --
2 THE REGISTRAR: P-288, Your Honour.
3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 288.
4
5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-288: Letter addressed to Susan
6 Vella, February 22/05 from J.
7 Goldi, Goldi Productions, Re:
8 Possible Liability resulting
9 in release of tapes.
10
11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
12 Q: I'm now producing to you a e-mail
13 that's addressed to john.goldi@goldieproductions.com
14 dated November the 19th, 2004. It's in response to Mr.
15 Goldi's letter of November 2nd, 2004 in which he, amongst
16 other things, makes an offer to reconfigure the tape and
17 send it to us.
18 And you might look at the second page of
19 that, top paragraph, last line, I quote:
20 "You indicated -- you have indicated
21 that you will send the reconfigured
22 tape of Robert Isaac and we would
23 appreciate receiving it immediately.
24 We will pay for the overnight courier
25 fee, in this respect, to expedite the

49

1 receipt. Furthermore, we require to --
2 we continue to require production of
3 the balance of the video tape footage
4 required under the summons which
5 continues to be in full force and
6 effect; this includes production of the
7 entire Robert Isaac video and the other
8 scenes which you recorded.
9 In the event we do not immediately
10 receive these items, we will have no
11 choice but to exercise the Inquiry's
12 remedies to compel full disclosure of
13 all relevant tapes in your possession
14 and/or under your control.
15 I will be in my office on Monday and
16 Tuesday of next week to receive your
17 reply and the required video tapes. We
18 will also require a sworn affidavit
19 confirming the integrity, authenticity,
20 completedness and -- of the video tapes
21 which I have draft -- which I will
22 draft for your review and signature."
23 Did your -- did this e-mail not come to
24 you attention?
25 A: I don't think I've seen this one

50

1 before.
2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to make
3 that the next exhibit, Commissioner.
4 THE REGISTRAR: It's P-289, Your Honour.
5
6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-289: E-mail to J. Goldi, November
7 19/04 from Commission Re:
8 Robert Isaac and other
9 related tapes.
10
11 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. This is to
12 john.goldi.
13
14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA.
15 Q: I -- I appreciate that.
16 A: We're only two (2) people. We are
17 trying to make a living. We work sixteen (16) hour days.
18 I don't read every mail that comes to my husband, every
19 piece of e-mail that comes to my husband.
20 Q: Mrs. Goldi, no such suggestion has
21 been made to you. But the fact of the matter is, is that
22 these e-mails are all relevant and pertinent to the tapes
23 in question which are the product of the Goldi
24 Productions Limited. There has been numerous
25 correspondence back and forth by e-mail as between

51

1 Commission Counsel and yourselves.
2 And so to suggest that -- that you didn't
3 read the e-mail does -- does not mean that the e-mail did
4 not come to John Goldi's attention or that it would have
5 come, in terms of content, to your attention.
6 A: I'm not saying it didn't come to John
7 Goldi's attention. I'm saying I didn't see it because I
8 can't read all the e-mails that come through.
9 Q: All right.
10 A: We searched high and low for the
11 tapes. I believe it was in late October when we were
12 looking for them to send to you. That's when we
13 discovered we didn't have the box.
14 And the only thing I -- can conclude is
15 that it went out during the summer when we were
16 housekeeping. I have no idea. I'd be glad to bring them
17 to you if we had them.
18 Q: And just for the record, I'd like to
19 show to you the first request that was made of you for
20 production of these tapes.
21
22 (BRIEF PAUSE)
23
24 A: Thank you.
25 Q: And you'll see this is a letter dated

52

1 July 21, 2004 addressed to John and Joan Goldi, 1409
2 Malibu Terrace from Mr. Derry Millar.
3 And here is the initial request you'll
4 agree, for certain of the tapes in your possession,
5 particularly showing an interview with the late Robert
6 Isaac, a number of the scenes of physical surroundings of
7 Ipperwash Provincial Park and items which were the
8 subject of description by several of the aboriginal
9 persons whom you interviewed in preparation of a
10 documentary on the shooting death of Anthony Dudley
11 George; you agree that that's the first formal request
12 that was made of you for these tapes?
13 A: Yes, and it's vary vague. And, also,
14 on July 21st I was in the middle of production, I had --
15 we had to deliver, according to our contract with CBC, we
16 were supposed to deliver our rough cut at the beginning
17 of August and deliver the finished show at the beginning
18 of September.
19 After I received this, I believe I spoke
20 to Derry on the phone and I said I'd try and get an e-
21 mail to him but I just didn't because we were totally
22 harassed. For one (1) thing, we couldn't have made the
23 tapes at that point because we did not have two (2) days
24 to go hunting for stuff and we couldn't -- couldn't do
25 any kind of taping of stuff or use our studio for

53

1 anything else.
2 Like, I -- I'm sorry but our thing to the
3 CBC just came first. It's a deadline, it's my contract,
4 it's a living, and we had to do it.
5 Q: Mrs. Goldi, when did you complete the
6 -- the CBC documentary?
7 A: On September 20th.
8 Q: And, therefore, as of the date of
9 this letter you were in possession of the Robert Isaac
10 tapes, were you not?
11 A: I have no idea. I assumed, when I
12 received the letter and spoke to Derry, that I was, but
13 as far as I know, they'd all been digitized. I really
14 don't know if I had them at that point.
15 Q: In any event, there was certainly a
16 copy, whether it's digitized, on video or whatever, there
17 was a copy in existence when you got this letter from the
18 Commission and you took no steps to preserve a copy, did
19 you?
20 A: Pardon?
21 Q: You took no steps to preserve a copy
22 of that tape after being notified that it was required --
23 A: There was a copy --
24 Q: -- because you were busy making a
25 documentary?

54

1 A: A tape was sent to you.
2 Q: Sorry.
3 A: It was made early in July, I believe,
4 it was -- or maybe it was mid-July, but a tape was sent
5 to you. As far as I knew, it was the tape you wanted.
6 Q: And we advised you that it was not.
7 In any event, I'd like to make this the next exhibit,
8 Commissioner.
9 THE REGISTRAR: P-290.
10
11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-290: Initial request made to John
12 and Joan Goldi, July 21/04
13 from Commission for Robert
14 Isaac and related tapes in
15 their possession.
16
17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
18 Q: Mrs. Goldi, I'd like to know the
19 addresses of all of your offsite storage facilities,
20 please, with respect to Goldi Productions Limited?
21 A: What do you mean our "offsite storage
22 facilities"?
23 Q: My understanding, based on earlier
24 correspondence from Mr. Goldi, is -- and as you
25 confirmed, is that you have to have -- your insurance

55

1 requires you from time to time to store tapes offsite.
2 Where -- what are the locations of those sites?
3 A: It was -- it was stored at John's
4 mother's house; she's eighty-nine (89) and the father
5 just celebrated his one hundredth birthday. Without
6 telling them, we put it in their basement storage.
7 Q: Is -- and what is the address of that
8 house, please?
9 A: God, you're not going to harass old
10 people. There is nothing there now. Believe me, there
11 is nothing there, I'll swear on the bible or anything you
12 want. Please do not harass the old people.
13 Q: The Commission is not in -- in the
14 business of harassing anything, Mrs. Goldi.
15 A: I'm -- I'm sorry, I'm not --
16 Q: We would like to have --
17 A: Sorry, I'm not implying that. But
18 just please don't -- we didn't even tell them we put it
19 there but we put it there.
20 Q: And what is the address of the house,
21 please?
22 A: It's an apartment on White Oaks
23 (phonetic) Boulevard in Oakville.
24 Q: The exact address, please?
25 A: I don't know. I would have to look

56

1 in my book, which is at home. I'll e-mail it to you if
2 you want.
3 Q: Thank you. Do you have any other
4 storage facilities or security box or receptacles at
5 which you store tapes from time to time?
6 A: Our masters are stored at our
7 duplicating lab, which is VCR -- VCR Active Media
8 (phonetic).
9 Q: And what's the location of that
10 business?
11 A: It's on -- it's in Mississauga. I'll
12 get you the address after, I don't have it right here
13 with me --
14 Q: And is that the --
15 A: -- but I brought it.
16 Q: Is that under Goldi Productions
17 Limited?
18 A: Yes. No, it's not under -- the tapes
19 are under Goldi Productions Limited. They're a
20 duplicating house and the masters are stored there for
21 our finished shows --
22 Q: Okay.
23 A: -- that we duplicate the master for
24 the -- for the Ipperwash documentaries there.
25 Q: And did you check with that facility

57

1 to see if they had an extra copy?
2 A: Yeah. We've had stuff going in and
3 out. We checked because we had stuff at Simram
4 (phonetic) as well.
5 Q: And, the response?
6 A: They only have the masters.
7 Q: They have the masters?
8 A: They have the master for the
9 documentary, the finished documentary.
10 Q: Okay. Are you in poss -- were you
11 provided with physical items by members from the Army
12 Camp when you were interviewing them between December and
13 February or March of '96, such as David George's drawing
14 of -- of his conception of the police marching?
15 A: Which drawing? You mean the one we
16 used --
17 Q: The one that's on -- the one that's
18 on your web site?
19 A: There's no drawing on our web site.
20 Do you mean the one we used in the documentary that we
21 filmed?
22 Q: Well, there's one that I saw that is
23 on your web site, but in any event, it may well have been
24 in the documentary, but did you receive any such physical
25 items --

58

1 A: No, we put --
2 Q: -- that were lent to you.
3 A: -- excuse me, that -- that drawing
4 was commissioned when we were shooting this summer on the
5 documentary and we were down here pretty well every
6 weekend and we knew that David George was a really fine
7 artist.
8 We remembered that he was and we went and
9 visited him several times and tried to persuade him to do
10 some -- some conceptual art and he did that drawing for
11 us.
12 Q: All right.
13 A: And we paid him the price that --
14 that he wanted for it. That was done this summer, at
15 least that's what he told us, so I assume that was the
16 case.
17 Q: But were you not lent certain
18 physical material such as video tapes; do you recall any
19 -- being lent any materials from anyone at the Army Camp?
20 A: Terry and -- I can't remember his
21 wife's name, lent us some and we duplicated some and gave
22 them back, I believe, but I don't know where those are.
23 We had -- there were some materials that Ben Pouget
24 (phonetic) said that they had, but he had lent them to a
25 native fellow who was making a documentary in Toronto.

59

1 And we kept phoning and phoning that guy
2 to see if we could borrow them and we could never get
3 hold of him. I believe, as I recall, we even went to his
4 apartment looking for him and he wasn't home. And Ben
5 told us that the material somehow got destroyed in a
6 flood or something and we were never able to get hold of
7 it.
8 Q: All right.
9 A: We know that's material that -- that
10 was made shortly after the -- shortly after the shooting.
11 Q: All right. All right. Commissioner,
12 I'd like -- I'm sorry -- propose to adjourn this
13 examination pending the Commission's ability to review
14 the -- the tape and determine whether or not the further
15 attendance by Mrs. Goldi might be required in the future.
16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you need
17 to hear it now?
18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, not here now. I
19 wouldn't propose to do it here now. We'll review it in
20 due -- in due course. Well, we may be able to play it
21 here, we're not sure. It depends on the tape, obviously,
22 but I'd like to adjourn the examination for now pending a
23 possible recalling of this witness depending upon what we
24 find on the tape.
25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.

60

1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. I propose
2 that we take a fifteen (15) minute recess right now.
3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what
4 I was going to suggest and we sort of see where we are
5 and where we're going.
6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And we'll see where we
7 are and perhaps we can look at the tape quickly and --
8 and then I can make a determination as to whether we will
9 need to recall the Witness.
10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think
11 that's a good idea.
12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right, fair enough.
13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a
14 break now.
15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you.
16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
17 very much.
18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess
19 for fifteen (15) minutes.
20
21 --- Upon recessing at 11:32 a.m.
22 --- Upon resuming at 11:48 a.m.
23
24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
25 resumed. Please be seated.

61

1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mrs. Goldi, would you
2 take the stand please?
3 THE WITNESS: Me?
4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, I can
5 advise that we've been able to view at least a part of
6 the tape and -- and the audio is on this copy of the
7 tape. It is obviously a -- a partial -- copy of the
8 partial interview but I have no further questions for
9 Mrs. Goldi.
10 However, there may be some individuals or
11 parties who wish to cross-examine and perhaps we could
12 see.
13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does any of
14 the parties wish to cross-examine this witness? Or do
15 any of the parties wish to cross-examine?
16 Mr. Klippenstein...? How long do you
17 think you might be?
18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: About five (5)
19 minutes, sir.
20 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I'm not -- Mr.
21 Commissioner, I'm not quite so concerned about a cross-
22 examination but it's procedural matter where we're going
23 with this.
24 And I can't quite tell -- and I -- and I
25 understand -- I understand the dilemma My Friend's

62

1 facing. But if -- if other documents were to be produced
2 -- other tapes were to be produced and the difficulty is
3 that my client was interviewed in one (1) of those tapes
4 apparently; I haven't seen it.
5 Obviously My Friend hasn't seen it either,
6 I take, or hasn't -- doesn't have a copy that's about to
7 be produced. But prior to -- should the Witness be
8 recalled and should that tape be produced, I'd obviously
9 like sufficient advanced production of that tape so that
10 I can review it with my client and prepare any cross-
11 examination that might be necessary.
12 But I'm not sure where we're headed,
13 whether there's to be -- there's many options that My
14 Friend has, ranging on a continuum from contempt all the
15 way through to -- to simply seeking to attend and produce
16 orders. I don't know -- or produce the tapes -- I don't
17 know where we're headed but I've got to protect my
18 client's interest by making this point before you now.
19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think
20 you've done that.
21 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Thank you, sir.
22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have
23 anything you wanted to add to that?
24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The -- the intent of
25 seeking the Robert Isaac tape was because Mr. Isaac is

63

1 deceased --
2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Deceased.
3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- and therefore, this
4 would be a statement made very close to the event with
5 respect to Pierre George, there's an issue about his
6 ability to -- to testify that -- so we were seeking that
7 tape.
8 And the physical objects are objects that
9 either are in a deteriorated state or they're no longer
10 available for inspection. So these -- this was a way to
11 get evidence that we could not otherwise get at.
12 In the event that we obtain other tapes
13 that are relevant, then of course we'll disclose those
14 and if we have to recall the Witness to put them in,
15 we'll do that and My Friends will have notice of that.
16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
17 Does that satisfy your concern?
18 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Yes, thank you.
19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
20 All right, we'll do the cross-examination. It's just Mr.
21 Klippenstein.
22 Mr. Klippenstein...?
23
24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN.
25 Q: Good morning, Mrs. Goldi. My name is

64

1 Murray Klippenstein and I'm the lawyer for the Estate of
2 Dudley George and for some of the brothers and sisters of
3 Dudley George.
4 We've had some discussion this morning of
5 some tapes that apparently are no longer available. I
6 don't know if you're aware of this but the -- the family
7 members of Dudley George have been calling for a public
8 inquiry for many years, including from right after the
9 shooting and repeatedly month after month, year after
10 year.
11 Can you give me some idea if the -- if the
12 government of Premier Harris had called a public inquiry
13 shortly after the shooting or a year or two (2)
14 thereafter, would access to some of these tapes have been
15 a little easier?
16 A: What do you mean "easier"?
17 Q: Would some of them been available
18 that are not available now?
19 A: Well, they were available when we
20 started the documentary because we digitized them. Did
21 you see the documentary that was on CBC?
22 Q: Yes, yes.
23 A: Because I can provide you with a copy
24 of it --
25 Q: Yes.

65

1 A: -- probably.
2 Q: Yes.
3 A: I mean if the family members have
4 copies.
5 Q: Right.
6 A: The tapes were available until we did
7 the documentary but we have not handed them out to
8 different people.
9 Q: Right.
10 A: Because it would simply take too long
11 to have duplicated them.
12 Q: But if Premier Harris had called an
13 inquiry previously, those tapes would have been
14 available?
15 A: What do you mean would they have been
16 available? They were available until we did the
17 documentary. They disappeared somewhere during our
18 production in the summer. I'm not sure what you're
19 asking.
20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that though the
21 evidence is in that they were available at a certain
22 period of time and they were not available at another
23 period of time. And whatever can be drawn from that, can
24 be drawn from that.
25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: From that

66

1 evidence -- the tapes existed up until the time the
2 documentary was produced.
3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you. I -
4 - I don't need to pursue the question any further.
5
6 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN:
7 Q: With respect to the -- the tapes that
8 -- that are not available anymore, that -- that may have
9 been inadvertently disposed of, to the best of your
10 recollection or knowledge, was there any evidence or
11 suggestion, in any of the materials on those tapes, that
12 the Native protestors had guns in Ipperwash Park from the
13 beginning of the occupation until the shooting of Dudley
14 George?
15 A: No, exactly the opposite --
16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just an
17 answer to --
18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just a minute, hold
19 on.
20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- just
21 before you answer the question.
22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that this --
23 this question is -- is inappropriate. It's asking for
24 the Witness's recollection of what was on tapes which
25 allegedly no longer exist. We've had the direct evidence

67

1 of the witnesses, most of whom were interviewed by the
2 Goldi's and I think that the value that can be added by
3 this person is -- is minimal.
4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I agree with
5 that.
6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: If I may -- if
7 I may make a submission on that, Mr. Commissioner.
8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
9 MR MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: My Friend has
10 referred to parts of an interview of Robert Isaac, who is
11 deceased; interviews of Mr. Pierre George, who may or may
12 not be called. She's mentioned evidence that has
13 deteriorated, so some of that may not be available. And
14 so my question and my -- and the answer of Mrs. Goldi may
15 be the best available evidence on that question.
16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, if it
17 -- I'll let you answer that, Ms. Vella.
18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. The -- the
19 tape that we have -- I haven't seen the whole thing but
20 I'm somewhat familiar with it -- I believe that Mr. Isaac
21 speaks to the issue, so Mrs. Goldi would not be the best
22 evidence in that respect.
23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you
24 expect to play that tape at some point; the one of Robert
25 Isaac?

68

1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We will tender that
2 tape at some point.
3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's an
4 exhibit now?
5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It is an exhibit but
6 we intend to also play it for the parties once they've
7 had an opportunity to have a look at it.
8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you
9 should move on, Mr. Klippenstein. I don't think that's a
10 useful area of cross-examination.
11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you,
12 Commissioner. I have no further questions, thank you.
13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
14 very much.
15 You're excused now. Thank you very much.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
17
18 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN)
19
20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission would
21 like to call as its next witness John Goldi.
22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hello.
23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Goldi.
25 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Hi.

69

1 THE REGISTRAR: How are you, sir? Do you
2 prefer to swear on the bible, affirm, or use an alternate
3 oath?
4 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Affirm is fine.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. Could
6 you state your name in full for us?
7 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Which?
8 THE REGISTRAR: State your name in full.
9 MR. JOHN GOLDI: John W. Goldi, G-O-L-D-
10 I.
11 THE REGISTRAR: And the W stands for?
12 THE WITNESS: Werner, W-E-R-N-E-R.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir.
14
15 JOHN WERNER GOLDI, Affirmed:
16
17 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
18 Q: Mr. Goldi, I understand that you
19 presently reside at 1409 Malibu Terrace in Mississauga?
20 A: Yes.
21 Q: And you are currently a director and
22 officer of Goldi Productions Limited?
23 A: That's right.
24 Q: And with your spouse, Mrs. Goldi,
25 Joan Goldi, you are the sole shareholder -- sole

70

1 shareholders of that company?
2 A: That's right.
3 Q: I understand that -- were you advised
4 that there were attempts to serve you with a summons to
5 witness -- to appear at this Inquiry?
6 A: That's right. My wife told me when I
7 got home that somebody was there.
8 Q: All right. And did she share with
9 you the -- the summons that she received?
10 A: Yes. We looked at it, yeah. Hmm
11 hmm.
12 Q: So you were aware that she was being
13 summoned, as was the company?
14 A: Sure, yeah.
15 Q: And you assisted her with respect to
16 attempting to comply with that summons?
17 A: Oh, yes, that's why I'm here, because
18 I have not been served with a summons.
19 Q: All right. Thank you. And did you
20 receive a copy of an e-mail from me dated March the 24th,
21 2005, Exhibit P-286, perhaps that can be put before the
22 Witness.
23 A: Yeah, I'd appreciate it. March 24th?
24 Q: 2005. It's Exhibit P-286.
25 A: Just the one (1) pager there?

71

1 Q: It's a one (1) pager --
2 A: Yeah.
3 Q: It's addressed, "Dear Mr. and Mrs.
4 Goldi --"
5 A: "I understand from our process
6 server --"
7 Q: That's right.
8 A: Okay, fine. Yes, I have that.
9 Q: And we requested as to whether you
10 would voluntarily produce yourself for --
11 A: Sure.
12 Q: -- service.
13 A: Right.
14 Q: And you got that e-mail?
15 A: Yeah.
16 Q: You didn't respond to it.
17 A: Well, I'm here.
18 Q: All right. But you didn't respond to
19 me that you had receipt or that you would be here.
20 A: No, I guess I didn't.
21 Q: Thank you. Now, you wrote to me --
22 you'll recall that -- you will recall that you provided
23 us with a copy of a tape of the interview of Robert Isaac
24 some time ago and that we wrote you back to indicate that
25 we could not obtain the audio on it and that there was

72

1 quite a lot of wording across the top and the bottom.
2 And we asked you to reconfigure it so that we could have
3 audio and reduce the writing on this image.
4 A: This story goes back a lot further
5 than that.
6 Q: I appreciate --
7 A: The story --
8 Q: Oh, go on.
9 A: The story begins actually when you
10 guys were in our house asking to see which kind of tapes
11 you wanted to see. And I distinctly remember asking you,
12 Rick, and Derry whether you were interested in seeing
13 tapes of interviews before the night of the shooting,
14 whether -- when people were down at the Camp and
15 picnicking or on the Camp -- Army Camp years themselves
16 and everybody said, No, we're interested in the night of
17 the shooting.
18 So, tapes that you asked to see of
19 interviews were all based on the night of the shooting.
20 And that happens to be the way Robert's tape is now
21 configured because subsequent to that, listening --
22 talking to Peter Rehak and talking to Derry on the phone,
23 the -- what you guys wanted kept changing from viewing or
24 showing or seeing, dupes, no dupes, dupes with things on
25 them.

73

1 It kept changing over and over. And one
2 (1) time during this -- July I think, I made -- I made
3 that VHS copy of Robert's interview on the day of the
4 shooting. That's why it's split off, because your
5 interest and focus, as expressed to me on April 7th and
6 May 10th, was the day of the shooting. So, when I had
7 free time some time, it must have been July, I -- I did a
8 VHS dub of Robert on the day of the shooting and you have
9 that tape.
10 Q: Now, you'll appreciate that during
11 the course of showing the Commission members various
12 interviews, you showed to us the entire interview of
13 Robert Isaac, which -- which related to not just the
14 events of September the 6th, but his prior attendance at
15 the Park and the aftermath of the shooting; is that not
16 correct?
17 A: No, it's not correct. I do not
18 recall whether I showed you the whole Robert interview,
19 because it is on two (2) tapes. It's on two (2) tapes,
20 and you specifically referred to your notes in your e-
21 mail to me that that interview was on one (1) tape and
22 you confirm that Rick Moss's (phonetic) notes also
23 confirm the interview you wanted was on one (1) tape.
24 The -- his interview exists on two (2) tapes, but the day
25 of the shooting it was on one (1) tape.

74

1 Q: Mr. -- Mr. Goldi, now, with all due
2 respect --
3 A: Yeah.
4 Q: -- you have received correspondence
5 and e-mail from the Commission since May of 2004 asking
6 for the entire unedited interview of Robert Isaac.
7 A: That's not true. I'd like to see an
8 e-mail from May say -- showing me that you want Robert
9 Isaac's interview or any other interview on tape. I
10 think the first notice we ever got in writing that you
11 wanted -- that you wanted footage was from Derry to Joan
12 on July 27th.
13 Q: July the 21st. This is Exhibit P-
14 290, perhaps you can put that letter before the Witness.
15 THE REGISTRAR: He has it.
16 THE WITNESS: Is that Derry's letter?
17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's Mr. Millar's
18 letter, that's correct.
19 THE WITNESS: Okay, fine, yeah. And I
20 think that's the first letter we ever got asking us for
21 tapes, not May as you just said or June --
22
23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
24 Q: No, no. That -- you misunderstood
25 me.

75

1 A: Okay.
2 Q: I indicated that we saw the entire
3 tape, and that's why in -- in -- in April and May and
4 that's why we know what it is we're asking for. And it's
5 clear, Mr. Goldi, from the tape that we have, that you
6 have produced, that it starts mid-sentence and it ends
7 mid-sentence, so you'll agree, sir --
8 A: It could be. It could be.
9 Q: -- that what you produced to the
10 Commission or at least what Mrs. Goldi produced to the
11 Commission today, is not the entire interview as you
12 conducted it, but a segment of it.
13 A: That's right, yeah.
14 Q: And you'll agree from your review of
15 the -- of the summons served upon Mrs. Goldi that we
16 didn't ask for a partial interview, but rather the whole
17 interview.
18 A: Hmm hmm, but as I said --
19 Q: Isn't that true?
20 A: I guess.
21 Q: And you'll recall that we caused you
22 to be served with an earlier summons, sir, which also
23 asked for the entire unedited interview. It did not say
24 an edited interview, it said the entire unedited
25 interview.

76

1 A: Well, as -- as I mentioned, the
2 interview was on two (2) tapes. You told me that it was
3 your expert advice that it was on one (1) tape, and that
4 is the tape you wanted. I can find the e-mail where you
5 say those exact words.
6 Q: Sir, we indicated that we knew the
7 tape number of -- insofar as you relayed it to us and it
8 was tape number 55 --
9 A: Actually, the tape --
10 Q: -- but I didn't have the tape.
11 A: -- which is not the tape number for
12 that interview, ma'am, I'm sorry.
13 Q: Well, then I guess --
14 A: It's the wrong tape.
15 Q: -- we have the wrong tape.
16 A: The tape you have there is tape 56,
17 which is Robert on the day of the shooting.
18 Q: Now, sir, Exhibit 290 is the letter
19 from Mr. Millar and you'll see in front of you dated July
20 21, 2004, it's addressed to both you and to Joan Goldi.
21 And we are requesting, among other things, the video
22 tapes in your possession showing an interview with the
23 late Robert Isaac, not an edited or partial interview.
24 A: Okay. Fine.
25 Q: Furthermore, you received an e-mail

77

1 from us indicating once you had given to us the partial
2 interview without audio, that we expected you to produce
3 the entire interview.
4 A: Well, --
5 Q: If you'd like we could look at the e-
6 mail to you dated November 19, 2004 and it's Exhibit P-
7 289 and in that e-mail we outline that we require the
8 entire interview, not the partial interview and with
9 sound. Do you have that in front of you, sir?
10 A: I'm trying to find it.
11 Q: Perhaps you can show --
12 A: I don't know if I have it. I would
13 appreciate a copy of that document.
14 Q: Certainly, of course.
15 A: I'm not sure where the heck it is
16 now.
17 Q: Exhibit 289. It's the detailed
18 response to your letter of November the 2nd.
19 A: Yeah, among the interviews we
20 reviewed was April 7, was the one conducted by Robert
21 Isaac.
22 Q: That's right.
23 A: His interview was recorded on tape
24 55.
25 Q: That was our information.

78

1 A: Yeah.
2 Q: "In his interview, Robert Isaac
3 outlined his involvement in First
4 Nation efforts to reclaim the former
5 Stoney Point Reserve; his background in
6 the Friendship and Honour Club from
7 Walpole Island; his initial involvement
8 with Dudley George as caretakers of the
9 Camp Ipperwash beach --"
10 A: Okay, I've got it all in front of me.
11 All I -- all I --
12 Q: Excuse me, sir, if I might just
13 finish my question?
14 A: Sure, sorry.
15 Q: Thank you.
16 "In or around spring of 1995 in his
17 detailed account of the occupation of
18 Ipperwash Provincial Park and the
19 ultimate confrontation with the OPP,
20 which resulted in the shooting death of
21 Dudley George.
22 As you know, Mr. Isaac is deceased and
23 hence the only direct evidence of which
24 the Commission is aware of Mr. Isaac's
25 perceptions of these events is what is

79

1 recorded in your interview of him. You
2 will appreciate that Mr. Isaac, as a
3 direct participant in the events
4 leading up to the actual occupation
5 itself of Ipperwash Park, would have
6 been a critical witness at the Inquiry.
7 It is in the public interest that his
8 entire unedited recorded interview be
9 called as evidence at the Inquiry. In
10 addition, we reviewed recordings of
11 various things relevant to the
12 occupation of the Park including Pierre
13 George's car and certain broken picnic
14 tables. These video tapes are also
15 important, since these objects no
16 longer exist, either at all or in their
17 original form.
18 Accordingly, on September the 20th,
19 2004, the Commission caused both you
20 and Mrs. Goldi to be served with a
21 summons to appear, in which you were
22 obliged to produce at the inquiry inter
23 alia the entire unedited taped
24 interview of Robert Isaac.
25 In our covering letter of September 17,

80

1 2004, we detailed the various videotape
2 recordings which we require and why.
3 We also indicated that if you were able
4 to provide the Commission with copies
5 of the requested materials before
6 September 28 together with a sworn
7 affidavit attesting to the authenticity
8 and integrity of the tapes, we would
9 endeavour to have the tapes entered
10 into evidence on consent without the
11 need to have you personally appear.
12 In response, in October 2004, I had a
13 telephone conversation with Joan Goldi
14 in which she expressed concerns
15 regarding protection of your commercial
16 interest in the raw videotape footage,
17 notwithstanding the fact that your
18 documentary had already aired on CBC
19 television. I indicated that I would
20 look into the -- what the Commission
21 might be able to do in this respect.
22 In my e-mail communication of October
23 11, 2004, I provide the Commission's
24 response, i.e., you could attach a
25 simple header publicizing that you

81

1 retained intellectual property rights
2 in the footage.
3 In the latter part of October we
4 received a package containing two (2)
5 videotapes. The first was a duplicate
6 recording of part of Robert Isaac's
7 interview and the second was a limited
8 shot of broken picnic tables. Neither
9 had any sound which we could access.
10 Both had several large lines -- several
11 lines in large font affixed across each
12 image providing advertising for your
13 production company as well as the
14 traditional copyright line which
15 hampered the visibility of the images.
16 In my e-mail communications of October
17 27, 2004, I set out the Commission's
18 grave concerns for the deficiencies of
19 your production which falls short of
20 the requirements set out in the
21 Commission's summons. By e-mail dated
22 October 29, 2004, you stated that you
23 would look into our concerns and
24 advise.
25 By e-mail attachment dated November 2,

82

1 2004, you provided a letter in which
2 you provided a response to the
3 Commission's concerns. In the letter
4 you advised that you could not find the
5 balance of Robert Isaac's interview or
6 the other footage required by the
7 Commission.
8 Your advice raises further grave
9 concerns on the part of the Commission
10 particularly when measured against Mrs.
11 Goldi's persistent advice to me that
12 the Robert Isaac video footage was the
13 most valuable piece of footage you had.
14 Further, our notes indicated that the
15 entire interview was on one (1) tape.
16 I specifically made a note of the tape
17 number due to the fact that Robert
18 Isaac was deceased, as did our
19 investigator, Inspector Rick Moss.
20 You have indicated that you will send a
21 reconfigured tape of Robert Isaac, and
22 we would appreciate receipt
23 immediately. We will pay for the
24 overnight courier fee in this respect
25 to expedite receipt."

83

1 Sir, we did ask you for the entire
2 unedited videotape. We refer back to our original
3 summons of September the 20th, and we -- and we asked you
4 for the -- the entire tape.
5 Now, you'll agree with me that what you
6 have caused to be produced to the Commission today
7 through Joan Goldi is a partial recording of the Robert
8 Isaac interview, notwithstanding your knowledge as back
9 as at least July of 2004 that we required the entire
10 unedited interview?
11 A: Well, all I'm saying is you have kept
12 moving the goal posts on me throughout this period on
13 what you were after and what you weren't after.
14 The letter you're quoting here, where
15 you're saying you want all of this stuff with Robert
16 talking about the friendship and honour club, you weren't
17 interested in that when you were at our house watching
18 the tapes, because I brought up all the stuff outside the
19 night of the shooting, there was no Commission interest
20 in seeing these tapes.
21 So that was my understanding, that you
22 weren't interested in the tapes of Robert then, on that
23 day either, which is why in July I made the tape you now
24 have. My tape does not reflect your November e-mail
25 here. It reflects my understanding of your presence at

84

1 my house expressing your views on what you were
2 interested in hearing from Robert Isaac.
3 Q: In fact, it was written in response -
4 - given in response to the letter from Mr. Millar of July
5 21, 2004 --
6 A: Right.
7 Q: -- in which he requested the
8 interview --
9 A: Right.
10 Q: -- with the late Robert Isaac --
11 A: Okay. So that's --
12 Q: -- not the partial interview --
13 A: Okay.
14 Q: -- Mr. Goldi.
15 A: Yeah. And --
16 Q: In any event, you were clear, if not
17 in the summer, then by the fall, that we wanted the whole
18 interview?
19 A: That's right. And the -- the tape
20 that I provided you was one that I made sometime in July
21 based on my understanding of your needs in July. I was,
22 in July, in the midst of the toughest job I've ever had
23 in my life.
24 If you -- to give you a point of reference
25 of what we were doing, we were doing a one and a half ( 1

85

1 1/2) hour feature documentary. A guy who does a
2 documentary that's an hour long, gets a year and more to
3 do it.
4 We were given eight (8) weeks. It's
5 unheard of, in Canada, that someone does a feature
6 documentary in one and a half (1 1/2) -- in one and a
7 half ( 1 1/2) hours in eight (8) weeks. It's undoable
8 and that it be done by two (2) people is even -- it's
9 just impossible.
10 Q: Mr. Goldi, I -- I think we all
11 understand that you and Mrs. Goldi had a busy summer --
12 A: In other words --
13 Q: -- and we also --
14 A: -- I was also making tapes for the SI
15 -- for the -- for the Commission. I wasn't -- that when
16 Derry's letter arrived, I did not start going through
17 tapes making tapes or dupes. We let it ride. We let it
18 slip.
19 Q: Mr. Goldi --
20 A: Yeah.
21 Q: -- you had a request from a public
22 inquiry. You knew that we wanted the tape.
23 A: And you have a tape that I gave in
24 answer to your request.
25 Q: You knew that we wanted the whole

86

1 interview and you have not produced that, have you?
2 A: Well, the point is, by the time
3 November came around, we couldn't find the originals, as
4 I pointed out to you in my letter that -- in November
5 here. My letter of November 2nd pointed out to you that
6 we couldn't find the originals.
7 The -- the tape I made from you first was
8 made off a VHS and this one was made off a VHS too. They
9 were not made off the original masters. I don't think
10 you understand how a television documentary is edited.
11 Q: Mr. Goldi --
12 A: And maybe that's the problem.
13 Q: -- I -- I don't require -- I don't
14 think the Commission is benefiting from your -- your
15 evidence concerning the process of editing and
16 documentary so let's --
17 A: Well, it explains why the tapes
18 disappeared.
19 Q: -- let's -- let's keep this focussed.
20 Now on February 22nd, 2005, you caused a letter to be
21 written on behalf of Goldi Productions Limited; is that
22 right?
23 A: Which letter are you referring to
24 please?
25 Q: Letter after we -- after talking to

87

1 our lawyer.
2 A: Okay, fine.
3 THE REGISTRAR: P-288.
4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you.
5
6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA.
7 Q: It's Exhibit P-288. It should be in
8 front of you, Mr. Goldi.
9 A: It's fine, I'll go from memory.
10 Q: Well, do you recall causing that
11 letter to be sent to me?
12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't
13 have to go from memory. We've got a copy for you.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay. Yeah, that's fine.
15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Do you have it there?
16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you got
17 a copy?
18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, okay, it's here.
19 That's the one you provided, that's fine.
20
21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
22 Q: Thank you very much. And you
23 indicate, sir, that the reason that you are not providing
24 the unedited raw footage to us is because of concerns you
25 have with respect to liability if these tapes are

88

1 tendered into the Public Inquiry as evidence.
2 And that you require the Commission to
3 provide you and to purchase for you, a certificate for
4 errors and omissions insurance for $2 million on any one
5 (1) claim, unlimited aggregate and zero dollars
6 deductible with no time limit; isn't that so?
7 A: That's right, yes.
8 Q: And furthermore, sir, you indicate at
9 the -- on the second page, that we cannot use any of this
10 material in public and so we have provided you with the
11 protection you need as outlined above; is that right?
12 A: Yes.
13 Q: And you further indicate, on the 6th
14 paragraph of the letter, that the insurance company is
15 quite likely to find that our actions, releasing for
16 public consumption a whole slew of unedited materials not
17 under the original policy, are in breach of our original
18 contract and use that to excuse -- excuse to cancel our
19 policy outright; isn't that right? You make that
20 statement on behalf of the company.
21 A: Sure.
22 Q: That you're not prepared to release
23 the whole slew of unedited materials we've requested
24 because of that reason?
25 A: No. I think we asked for insurance

89

1 coverage to get us out of liability of having Robert's un
2 -- unedited tape released outside the agreement. Our
3 insurance covers us for the segments that we have put
4 into the show. Insurance does not cover us for segments
5 of things that Robert may say and have not been cleared
6 by our lawyers.
7 So we had a panic attack thinking about
8 insurance and our liability when an unedited piece of
9 footage -- like we went through hell with our lawyers and
10 our accountants because of the explosive nature of what
11 people were saying --
12 Q: Yes.
13 A: -- on tape.
14 Q: Not related to the Commission's
15 request, however. You're talking about with respect to
16 something else; aren't you?
17 A: Well, I'm talking about release --
18 releasing the unedited portion of Robert's tape, which is
19 in your possession.
20 Q: Well, we might have to beg to differ
21 on that point. With respect to the tape which is in our
22 possession now, it's Exhibit P-287, the partial interview
23 of Robert Isaac, would you kindly tell me, first of all,
24 when you caused that copy of the tape to be made and
25 under what circum -- how -- how it was you created the --

90

1 the tape, please?
2 A: Okay. I think we made it sometime,
3 as I said, in -- in July, I think somewhere in July. I
4 don't keep notes on doing stuff, and it was not our
5 frontline concern. As an editor I was up to here with
6 what -- my work and this was done off the side.
7 From my understanding of what you wanted
8 when you said you were interested in Robert's --
9 Q: I'm just -- I'm just asking, sir, for
10 you to tell me what process you used to duplicate the
11 tape. This is so that I can verify --
12 A: We have a studio with all kinds of
13 equipment, we interconnect the cords and make a copy.
14 Q: You made a copy from what?
15 A: Well, off the -- off the computer.
16 Q: From the digitized version?
17 A: Oh yeah. Yeah. We --
18 Q: All right.
19 A: -- as I wanted to tell you before,
20 when you make a show, and we did -- when you make a show,
21 you, first of all, shoot it on hard videotape; that is
22 the camera master. Sometime during May and June I
23 digitized those masters and threw them away.
24 Q: Threw --
25 A: You do not save your --

91

1 Q: -- threw what away? Did you throw
2 away the tapes --
3 A: -- masters. I'm using a colloquial
4 term. In the modern editing sweep of digital -- in the
5 digital world, you do not see the masters again.
6 Q: When did you throw away the masters?
7 A: Well, that depends. I think we did
8 our digitizing in May and June and July.
9 Q: All right. And, from my
10 understanding --
11 A: Then the tapes are put into a box or
12 thrown away or whatever. Everything that happens after
13 that is done inside the computer, including that tape you
14 have.
15 Q: What tapes did we review?
16 A: You reviewed camera tapes.
17 Q: All right. And where are those
18 camera tapes?
19 A: They were in about seven (7) or eight
20 (8) boxes until we got the go-ahead from CBC. Then they
21 were moved down into the editing suite and I digitized
22 them based on my -- what I wanted to go into the
23 computer.
24 And I'm -- I don't know, I don't keep
25 logs; logs don't pay. The show, I get paid for. So I --

92

1 you know, like Margaret Wenty (phonetic) said last week,
2 she has the messiest house in the world, no, that's not
3 true, we have the messiest house in the world.
4 Q: All right. And, Mr. Goldi, with
5 respect to the tape that we have -- that has been
6 produced today as Exhibit P-287, the segment, at least,
7 of the interview that we now have in our possession --
8 A: Yeah.
9 Q: -- did you make any alterations,
10 deletions, omissions, additions to that tape from the
11 original shooting?
12 A: Well, I -- I think you know what I
13 did. We put headers on -- we put -- I forgot what they
14 were, we put something, "Copyright Goldi Productions," on
15 the tape.
16 Q: All right. But did you make any
17 other alterations --
18 A: No, I --
19 Q: -- to the tape or its content?
20 A: Not that I know of.
21 Q: So it is from the original master?
22 A: No, it's from the original computer,
23 digitized.
24 Q: Computer digitized version which, in
25 turn, came from --

93

1 A: We never touched the masters --
2 Q: Excuse me which, in turn, came from
3 the original master?
4 A: Yeah, sometime in May or June.
5 Q: Thank you.
6 A: I haven't -- I never saw the masters
7 again probably after June or July. We have no need for
8 them so we don't check them.
9 Q: Thank you, Mr. Goldi. Those are my
10 questions. Does anyone wish to cross-examine this
11 witness?
12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see Karen
13 Jones does.
14 THE WITNESS: Can I just add something?
15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that perhaps
16 you'll wait for a question to be asked.
17 THE WITNESS: Sure.
18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you.
19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms.
20 Jones...?
21 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you.
22
23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES:
24 Q: Mr. Goldi, my name is Karen Jones.
25 I'm one (1) of the lawyers for the Ontario Provincial

94

1 Police Association.
2 A: Okay.
3 Q: I was just listening to your
4 explanation of the process of how you go from the video
5 footage to your final material.
6 A: Right.
7 Q: And, if I understand what you said,
8 you take the video and -- footage and you digitalize it?
9 A: Hmm hmm.
10 Q: So you move it into the computer?
11 A: Yeah.
12 Q: Do you move all of the video footage
13 into the computer or you -- do you decide which portions
14 are important to you?
15 A: It depends on the show. It depends
16 on the camera. It depends on your conception of what
17 you're going to put together. It varies with every
18 program. I think what we did in this program, we
19 digitized all the interviews.
20 Q: Okay.
21 A: Because it's easier than going back
22 to the tape. I think we digitized all the interviews
23 into the show because it's a lot easier, like word
24 processing, to go in instead of getting tapes in and out.
25 Q: Okay. That was my question whether--

95

1 A: Yeah.
2 Q: -- all of the interview --
3 A: Yeah.
4 Q: -- was digitalized --
5 A: Yeah.
6 Q: -- or whether it was edited before
7 you did that.
8 A: Yeah, that's right.
9 Q: Okay, thank you.
10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
11 very much, Ms. Jones. That's it?
12 Thank you very much, Mr. Goldi.
13 THE WITNESS: Could I add a couple of
14 things here?
15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not
16 sure. What do you want to add, Mr. Goldi? What do you
17 want to talk about?
18 THE WITNESS: Well, I think that we're
19 talking here about Robert's tape being missing. But I --
20 let me just say, there's nothing of Robert that's
21 missing. Robert has been an international spokesman for
22 the story at Ipperwash. The documentary he was in won
23 the feature documentary -- was a finalist at the feature
24 documentary in the American Indian Film Festival in San
25 Francisco.

96

1 It was selected for show at the American
2 Indian Festival in San Francisco. It was also a finalist
3 at the New York International Film Festival --
4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Goldi, I don't
5 understand the purpose of -- of this part of your answer
6 except perhaps to give profile to your work. But the --
7 the point of the matter --
8 THE WITNESS: No, I'm saying that's where
9 Robert is. Robert is up there talking all over the
10 world.
11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- the point of the --
12 THE WITNESS: He's not missing.
13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sir, the point of the
14 matter is, is that you had -- you had further footage of
15 his interview relating to other matters and that has not
16 been produced; that's the fact of the matter, sir.
17 THE WITNESS: Well, it depends, I guess.
18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: I might also point out that
20 I -- I don't like us being portrayed, at all, as hostile
21 to this Inquiry. I might say the Inquiry is sitting here
22 because of my big loud mouth to the SIU on December the
23 8th. We went into the SIU, my wife and I, after spending
24 weeks here and -- and said what are you guys doing with
25 Dudley George.

97

1 And the SIU director told us, we are
2 closing the SIU file on Ipperwash. Monday --
3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: -- I'm announcing that we
5 are not going to be indicting anyone for any illegalities
6 at Ipperwash. And I pointed to him and I said, You can't
7 do that.
8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
9 Thank you very much, Mr. Goldi. Thank you very much.
10 Let's move on.
11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr.
12 Klippenstein has a couple of exhibits.
13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't
14 want the exhibits to go missing.
15 Thank you, Mr. Rosenthal.
16 Thank you, Mr. Goldi, Mrs. Goldi. Okay?
17 Where are we now?
18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that we won't
19 break lunch for some -- some time. What time would you
20 like to take lunch today, Commissioner, I should ask?
21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN:
22 Approximately one o'clock. Do you have a witness ready
23 to go right now?
24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, we have a witness
25 ready to go.

98

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I had a few
2 words that I wanted to say.
3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Of course.
4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this
5 be the appropriate time for me to say them, before you
6 call your next witness?
7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that it would
8 be most appropriate, thank you.
9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. I
10 just had a few words that I wanted to say before we move
11 onto the next group of witnesses. We're not quite ready
12 to move to the next group of witnesses but I'd just like
13 to take a few minutes to reflect on the work of the
14 Inquiry to date.
15 With the benefit of extensive reading,
16 research and listening over the last number of months, we
17 now know a lot more than we did when we began.
18 Accordingly, we're in a better position to bring more
19 focus to the scope of the Inquiry.
20 It's important that we keep in mind the
21 specific mandate of the Inquiry at all times; that is, to
22 inquire into and report on events surrounding the death
23 of Dudley George and to make recommendations directed to
24 the avoidance of violence in similar circumstances.
25 When these Hearings began, I stated that I

99

1 had an interest in achieving a number of other broad
2 goals. And these included a desire to contribute to
3 public understanding of the events in question and the
4 circumstances surrounding them, which I hoped could, in
5 turn, contribute to some healing among those affected.
6 I also expressed my intention to be guided
7 by the same principles that have guided other
8 commissions, namely thoroughness, openness to the public,
9 fairness, and expedition.
10 Throughout this Hearing process, which is
11 the most public aspect of the Inquiry, I believe we've
12 been successful so far in going beneath the surface of
13 the controversy and exploring some of the factors that
14 may have given rise to it. We will continue to do this
15 as other witnesses give their testimony.
16 I hope all parties and, indeed, the public
17 at large will agree that we are also contributing to
18 public understanding and education of the issues through
19 the research and other policy work that we have
20 undertaken. I am confident that the over twenty (20)
21 research papers being commissioned by the Inquiry, as
22 well as our accompanying consultations will add
23 considerably to our knowledge and understanding.
24 While it may be naive to expect that the
25 Inquiry process can contribute to the healing of

100

1 longstanding feelings and emotions, I'm of the view that
2 the principles of openness and communication that we are
3 observing can create an environment that facilitates the
4 healing process.
5 We've had some success in achieving this
6 goal, and I want to encourage those affected to use what
7 is learned through the Inquiry as a starting point for
8 what might be achieved beyond the inquiry itself.
9 Our long list of past and future witnesses
10 demonstrates our desire to be thorough and fair. The
11 same is true of our efforts to encourage participation by
12 all parties, this Public Hearing and in the Part 2
13 process.
14 Our efforts to be fair and thorough must
15 be balanced with the goals of conducting the inquiry in a
16 timely and efficient fashion. And I want to recognize
17 the contribution made by all parties to help this process
18 along. I would like to acknowledge the understanding of
19 all Counsel of our need to lengthen our Hearing day as
20 well as their concerted efforts to ensure that cross-
21 examinations are necessary and relevant.
22 My Commission Counsel and I remain
23 committed to an expeditious process and I encourage
24 further constructive discussions among all Counsel as to
25 additional ways in which we may use our time responsibly

101

1 and effectively. I believe it is in all our interest to
2 do so.
3 It's challenging for any public inquiry to
4 define and contain its scope, given the many contributing
5 issues and sometimes competing interests that an
6 investigation of this kind can raise. And I think this
7 is particularly true for inquiries such as this one, that
8 is mandated to go beyond simple fact-finding.
9 I am always mindful of the importance of
10 the scope of the Inquiry. This is because it affects the
11 selection of witnesses, the duration of the hearings, the
12 cost of the inquiry and the subject matter of its
13 recommendations. The scope of any inquiry must have
14 limits and sometimes assumptions about these can lead to
15 expectations that extend beyond the actual mandate.
16 Our Order in Council states that the
17 Inquiry is to investigate the events surrounding the
18 death of Dudley George. Among the challenges is to
19 define what the term "surrounding" means. How far back
20 in time is relevant for our mandate? How far forward?
21 We must be sufficiently broad and yet appropriately
22 focussed to achieve our objective and fulfill our
23 mandate.
24 We must be necessarily mindful of the
25 limits of our jurisdiction. We are a provincially

102

1 created inquiry and yet we are investigating issues that
2 clearly have federal implications. I have previously
3 stated that we intend to explore both the specific
4 circumstances of the shooting of Dudley George as well as
5 the context in which that shooting occurred - both are
6 key to the Inquiry's fact-finding and policy mandate.
7 Having said that, there is considerable
8 room for interpretation as to what that means. In my
9 view, the Inquiry's mandate is to investigate and report
10 on the events surrounding the death of Dudley George and
11 must remain focussed on the decisions made and the
12 actions taken by all involved prior to and following the
13 shooting in September 1995 outside Ipperwash Provincial
14 Park.
15 In other words, what happened, who was
16 involved and why did the shooting occur? At the
17 conclusion of our investigation I will be making
18 recommendations as to how to avoid violence when similar
19 situations occur in the future; that is situations giving
20 rise to Aboriginal protests that draw the attention of
21 police and government.
22 I also believe that the Inquiry has an
23 obligation to acknowledge that systemic or historic
24 circumstances may have contributed to the actions taken
25 and the decisions made. While many of these

103

1 circumstances predate the events that gave rise to this
2 Inquiry or appear to fall outside its jurisdiction or
3 mandate, they shed light on why the events occurred.
4 That's what's meant by context.
5 The obligation to consider context prompts
6 us to examine the larger Canadian experience in areas
7 such a Native Land Treaty Rights, policing practices and
8 the government's role of policing activities.
9 In my report, I expect to consider these
10 issues when making my recommendations. There are two (2)
11 specific issues that have been given considerable
12 attention in the evidence at these Hearings.
13 The first relates to questions regarding
14 the status of the Army Camp land and Provincial Park, the
15 so called sandy parking lot and the corner of land
16 located at the northeast end of the Army Camp. How
17 should this land be described, who owns it, and other
18 related issues?
19 The second issue is that of the
20 recognition and status of the self identified Stoney
21 Pointers in relation to the Kettle and Stony Point Band.
22 It's recognized that these two (2) issues form an
23 important backdrop and context to our work even though
24 they predate the events we've been mandated to
25 investigate.

104

1 While I may comment on these issues in my
2 final report, it's unrealistic to expect that this
3 Provincial Inquiry can by itself resolve these long
4 standing questions. Having said that, I'm hopeful that
5 our work can and will contribute to their resolution in a
6 timely fashion and a way that is acceptable to all
7 parties.
8 To this end, although the Federal
9 Government has chosen not to participate as a party to
10 this Inquiry, I expect to comment in my report on the
11 role of the Federal Government in these matters. As the
12 work of the Inquiry progresses, its scope and shape will
13 become clearer.
14 During the next phase of the Inquiry we
15 will be calling emergency response, medical, hospital,
16 and other healthcare witnesses. We'll follow with
17 witnesses from law enforcement agencies, other members of
18 the local community, and finally with witnesses who are
19 civil servants, both federal and provincial and
20 politicians.
21 We still have a way to go. But in my view
22 our work so far has been constructive and, for some, even
23 therapeutic. I'm confident that if we continue in the
24 same spirit, we will reach a successful conclusion.
25 Thank you very much.

105

1 Do you want to call your next witness,
2 please?
3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission calls
4 Gordon Peters.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Mr.
6 Peters. I understand from Counsel that you wish to
7 affirm, sir?
8 MR. GORDON PETERS: Yes, I do.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Would you state your name
10 in full for us, please?
11 MR. GORDON PETERS: Gordon Burton Peters.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Could you speak into the
13 mic for the recorder please, sir, and repeat your name in
14 full?
15 MR. GORDON PETERS: Gordon Burton Peters.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir.
17
18 GORDON BURTON PETERS, Sworn:
19
20 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA.
21 Q: Mr. Peters, I understand that you are
22 a member of the Delaware of the Thames Nation?
23 A: Yes, I am.
24 Q: Also known as the Moravan of the
25 Thames?

106

1 A: Moravian of the Thames.
2 Q: Moravian. Thank you very much.
3 A: Yes.
4 Q: And that's located about fifty-six
5 (56) kilometres southwest of Sarnia, is it?
6 A: Well, a little further than that, but
7 it's -- as the crow flies maybe, but it's in that -- that
8 vicinity.
9 Q: Thank you. What is your current
10 occupation?
11 A: I have a small company called the
12 Centre for Indigenous Sovereignty.
13 Q: When did you found this organization?
14 A: About -- almost eight (8) years ago.
15 Q: What type of services are offered by
16 this centre?
17 A: We offer a variety of services that
18 are related to community development, nation building
19 processes, dispute resolution, strategic planning, those
20 kinds of issues.
21 Q: Okay. And what is your major roles
22 within that organization?
23 A: I'm the president of the company and
24 also the CEO.
25 Q: I understand that in 1995 you held

107

1 the position of Regional Chief for Ontario?
2 A: That's correct.
3 Q: Is that a -- an elected position?
4 A: Yes, it is.
5 Q: When were you first elected as
6 Regional Chief?
7 A: 1985.
8 Q: How long did you hold that position?
9 A: Twelve (12) years.
10 Q: And when did you hold your first
11 position or post with the Chiefs of Ontario?
12 A: 1981.
13 Q: What position was that?
14 A: I was a member of the executive.
15 Q: And again, is that an elected
16 position?
17 A: Yes, it is.
18 Q: How long did you hold that position?
19 A: Four (4) years.
20 Q: So, until your election as Regional
21 Chief of that organization?
22 A: Yes.
23 Q: Prior to that, did you hold any
24 political or elected positions within the aboriginal
25 community?

108

1 A: The one I just identified as part of
2 the executive was as the head of the organization, the --
3 the Association of Iroquois and Allied Indians. And
4 previous to that I was a band councillor in -- in my
5 community for six (6) years.
6 Q: And as head of the Association of
7 Iroquois and Allied Indians, first of all, did that --
8 was that position held between 1981 and '85, then?
9 A: Yes, it was.
10 Q: All right. And what -- what were the
11 main -- what were the main objectives of that
12 association?
13 A: Originally when it was -- was first
14 born, the main objectives were to do with land claim
15 issues, but over years it broadened out into most of
16 political issues that impacted First Nations.
17 Q: And is that First Nations, in
18 general, or a particular group of First Nations?
19 A: It was particular to the ones that
20 belonged to the organization, but all those issues are
21 similar to all other First Nations.
22 Q: Do you hold any elected or political
23 positions currently?
24 A: No.
25 Q: Do you have any ongoing contact with

109

1 the Chiefs of Ontario?
2 A: Yeah, some.
3 Q: What type of contact do you have?
4 A: I've -- I chair some of their --
5 their Chiefs Assemblies. I've done some contract work
6 for them.
7 Q: All right. Whose interests do the
8 Chiefs of Ontario represent?
9 A: The Chiefs of Ontario is a
10 coordinating body that represents the interests of a
11 hundred and -- well, whatever the current number is -- a
12 hundred and thirty-four (134) First Nations that are
13 there.
14 Q: In Ontario?
15 A: Yes.
16 Q: And what -- what are the -- what is
17 the mandates of the Chiefs of Ontario?
18 A: There's two (2) different bodies that
19 we're talking about. The Chiefs of Ontario is the
20 coordinating body. It has administrative
21 responsibilities in -- in respect to the Office of the --
22 of the Regional Chief.
23 Q: All right. Perhaps you can describe
24 the -- the governing structure, then as between the -- I
25 understand there's two (2) structures, the Regional

110

1 Chief's Office and an executive body?
2 A: No.
3 Q: Okay.
4 A: Yes and no. I will explain it.
5 Q: Thank you.
6 A: First of all, The "Chiefs" is an
7 incorporated body. The Chiefs of Ontario is -- is a --
8 is an incorporated body that becomes the vehicle to be
9 able to handle money for any work that's done within the
10 Ontario region.
11 Second, there is a body called the
12 Executive, which are made up of members of -- formerly
13 were made up of members of the four (4) political
14 organizations in Ontario, but have now been -- have been
15 expanded to also include representation from the
16 independent First Nations who don't belong to any -- any
17 political organization. And in there is the office of
18 the Regional Chief that's elected by the Chiefs of
19 Ontario that has a role with the Assembly of First
20 Nations.
21 Q: All right. And what -- what is the
22 particular role and responsibilities of the Regional
23 Chief which distinguishes it from the -- that position,
24 from the Executive?
25 A: The role of the Ontario Regional

111

1 Chief is to be able to deal with day-to-day political
2 issues that impact all of Ontario First Nations. It's
3 also to be able to liaison and have a role on the
4 national level so that those issues that are dealt with
5 in Ontario are identified and carried to the national
6 forums, and that our positions that we establish with the
7 Ontario regions are also carried to the national forum so
8 that people know what the views and concerns that we have
9 within this region.
10 Q: All right. Now, over your tenure as
11 Regional Chief, which Provincial Governments did you have
12 contact with in that role?
13 A: I think we -- and I don't know for
14 sure whether or not but the first government that we had
15 in Ontario I think that we met with was the Davis
16 government. And then Frank Miller took over from Davis
17 for a period of time. David Peterson was elected and I
18 think there was a coalition government in there at a
19 time, with the NDP. And then the Liberals were elected
20 under their own mandate. Then with the NDP, with -- with
21 Bob Rae. And then with the Conservatives, with -- with
22 Mike Harris.
23 Q: And over the time that you were
24 Regional Chief, did you observe any differences as
25 between the various governments with respect to their

112

1 respective approach to resolving aboriginal disputes?
2 A: I guess if we start back in the --
3 with the Davis government, we were at a time where we
4 were in a building process in -- at those kinds of
5 stages. And I think what was going on at that time was
6 that a lot of people were doing developmental work. I
7 don't recall us having any major disputes at that
8 particular point in time with the government, where
9 police would have been involved.
10 And certainly, as we developed from that
11 stage on and we -- we continued to press governments for
12 recognition of our -- our treaty and inherent rights,
13 there became more and more points of contention between
14 us.
15 But as we went through we established some
16 informal mechanisms to be able to work with, and those
17 were -- those were primarily dialogue. We had meetings,
18 we had discussions, we had other -- other means of being
19 able to bring people to the table that were -- were a
20 part of that process.
21 And then, after the Conservative
22 government got elected, we didn't have any dialogue with
23 them. We would have normally met with the Premier at the
24 beginning of their term, some of the Cabinet members, to
25 have a discussion about relationships. We didn't do that

113

1 when the Conservatives got elected in their office in
2 1995.
3 Q: And do you know why that didn't
4 happen?
5 A: Some of it comes from -- from the --
6 the platform that was carried by the -- by the
7 Conservative government and the blue book, their strategy
8 in terms of the election.
9 And part of that strategy was that people
10 were going to be treated equally, that there was an
11 understanding that -- that what was considered to be
12 minority groups at the time were getting far too much
13 attention and that government should focus primarily on
14 ensuring that the economic future of the -- of the region
15 was -- was taken into effect. And that, you know, again
16 what was termed as minority groups, which we are not a
17 minority group as indigenous people, should not have very
18 much focus.
19 And so based on those assumptions and --
20 we didn't -- we didn't have any -- any meetings to be
21 able to talk about where we were going to go as -- in a
22 government to government relationship that we had
23 previously established with the NDP government.
24 Q: Now, as Regional Chief or in any of
25 your other capacities, prior to September of 1995, had

114

1 you any direct experience as a negotiator or facilitator
2 in relation to First Nation protests or occupations?
3 A: Prior to?
4 Q: Prior to September of '95.
5 A: Yes. I had been involved with the
6 student strikes that took place in the -- in the late
7 '80's.
8 Q: Could you expand on that?
9 A: Post secondary students went on
10 strike. They started at I think it was Lakehead
11 University in -- in Thunder Bay. They proceeded to take
12 their strike to Ottawa. Some buildings were -- were
13 occupied and part of our role was to be able to deal with
14 -- with some of the students and to be able to talk with
15 them, to be able to try to figure out how to get past an
16 impasse.
17 Also met with the Minister of Indian
18 Affairs who said that they wouldn't meet anybody while an
19 occupation was going on but he met with us. And as -- as
20 an alternative party and had discussions with him about
21 how to be able to resolve that issue. And ended up by --
22 ended up as being one (1) of the occupiers of Indian
23 Affairs buildings in Hull, Quebec.
24 Q: Okay. Have you had any other
25 experience, direct experience, as a negotiator or

115

1 facilitator prior to '95?
2 A: We did some work with -- with Meech
3 Lake. And it was a process that we were working with,
4 with the government in Manitoba who didn't want to deal
5 with the Meech Lake Accord and were trying to figure out
6 a way of being able to stop the Accord from being able to
7 go through.
8 It wasn't as much as a -- of a dispute as
9 to -- as to try to figure out how to be able to create a
10 strategy that would allow some of that work to be
11 undertaken; was at Oka; was -- was requested to be able
12 to do some work with the -- with the traditional
13 governments as part of a process of -- of trying to find
14 some solutions.
15 Also did some work -- we were directly
16 into the -- the treatment centre as well as a national
17 executive group to be able to go in and talk to the
18 individuals that were there at the time. So, yeah we
19 have had some -- some of those; was involved with Red
20 Squirrel Road, a logging dispute that Northern Ontario --
21 Q: And perhaps you could just tell us
22 what that was about and what your role was there?
23 A: That was -- that was more of a
24 supportive role. I went to -- at the request of the
25 First Nations community. We did -- we did some public

116

1 relations. We provided information to -- to people. Not
2 only our people but to the Ontario public and the
3 Canadian public about some of the processes that were
4 going on in that area with -- with violations what they
5 understood to be their -- their traditional territories
6 and which we understood as their traditional territories
7 as well.
8 And that logging was going to continue in
9 that area. There were no mechanisms at that stage to go
10 beyond as there had been a court case. And so one (1) of
11 the strategies they embarked upon to try to bring people
12 to the table to talk about how they might resolve it was
13 to be able to stop the -- the logging from moving ahead.
14 And so I went there and one (1) of the
15 things that we did do right on the site there was to be
16 able to talk to the -- to the police. Police came, the
17 commissioner came to that, we spoke with the
18 commissioner, we talked about processes that we might
19 engage in to be able to -- try to be able to resolve the
20 issues.
21 And ended up as well being arrested with
22 the protesters on the road not allowing logging to
23 continue in that territory.
24 Q: And approximately what year was that?
25 Do you recall the -- the name of -- which police

117

1 commissioner was it?
2 A: I don't remember either.
3 Q: Or do you remember the police force?
4 A: It was the Ontario Provincial Police
5 that came in.
6 Q: All right. Thank you.
7 A: But the -- but the commissioner knew
8 all of us by name.
9 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Now in relation
10 to your involvement with the Oka matter, could you just
11 expand upon that? You indicated you went to the
12 treatment centre and spoke to some people. What was --
13 what was your role there specifically?
14 A: My role was specifically to talk to
15 people, to find out what -- what their -- what their, I
16 guess, they expected from other people. We wanted to
17 find out from them exactly what it was that they had
18 intended to be able to do, how long they were going to do
19 what they were doing and to be able to see what kind of
20 support mechanisms could be provided to them to be able
21 to see what kind of role that we were actually going to
22 be able to play, if any.
23 Q: Hmm hmm. And what was the
24 determination in terms of what role, if any, you would
25 play?

118

1 A: The role I played from that was that
2 I did eventually go talk to some of the traditional
3 government leaders to be able to ask for their
4 intervention and to be able to -- to see if it was
5 possible for them to be able to do some work in that
6 area, did some public relation stuff around that with the
7 media.
8 Q: And at what stage during -- what --
9 what stage during the event did this occur; was it during
10 the occupation or was it at some other time?
11 A: It was occupied at the time and I
12 think the OPP were in there at the time. The Army hadn't
13 come in yet at that time.
14 Q: All right. Did you facilitate any
15 discussions with the police?
16 A: No, we didn't. We didn't facilitate
17 any discussions with the police. The -- the police in
18 Quebec had already determined that everyone -- everyone
19 from the -- from the area would have to be removed and
20 they were -- they were moving ahead to be able to carry
21 that out.
22 Q: All right. Under what circumstances
23 will the Regional Chief generally get involved directly
24 in individual First Nation disputes within the province?
25 A: Most of the time there's a request

119

1 for the Regional Chief to be able to go into the
2 community, to be able to do some of that work and at
3 times I guess it depends, sometimes there's not a -- the
4 -- the request doesn't come directly.
5 Sometimes it may have gone through their
6 organization to be able to do that and to be able to --
7 through their organization to be able to direct that I --
8 I go into a specific community or the Regional Chief goes
9 into a specific community to do something.
10 But generally, that's -- that's some of
11 the processes that were used to be able to -- to get
12 access.
13 Q: All right. And when you say, "a
14 request," is there -- where does the -- does the request
15 have to originate from the aboriginal community as
16 opposed to another community or constituency?
17 A: It had to come from the -- the
18 indigenous community, correct.
19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. Thank you.
20 Now, Commissioner --
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm hungry, too.
22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry.
23 Commissioner, I'm sorry, it's five (5) to 1:00, and
24 before I get into the next area I wonder if we might take
25 the lunch break at this time.

120

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you.
3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
4 very much. We'll take the lunch break now until 2:15.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands
6 adjourned until 2:15.
7
8 --- Upon recessing at 12:57 p.m.
9 --- Upon resuming at 2:13 p.m.
10
11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
12 resumed. Please be seated.
13
14 (BRIEF PAUSE)
15
16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good afternoon.
17 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
18
19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
20 Q: Mr. Peters, when did you first become
21 aware of the existence of any Aboriginal concerns
22 regarding CFB Camp Ipperwash?
23 A: I was quite young.
24 Q: And how did you learn of these
25 concerns?

121

1 A: Some of the families used to come to
2 visit in Moraviantown and they -- they spoke of them and
3 spoke of being able to go back to their territory.
4 Q: What was your understanding of the
5 concerns?
6 A: The understanding was that the -- the
7 Military had -- had taken the lands during the war and
8 that they were supposed to return them after the war and
9 they weren't returned.
10 Q: Did you have any involvement prior to
11 1993 in advancing or investigating these Aboriginal
12 concerns?
13 A: No.
14 Q: Did you have any involvement prior to
15 1993 advancing or investigating any Aboriginal concerns
16 regarding the Ipperwash Provincial Park?
17 A: No.
18 Q: In your early understanding of these
19 concerns did the Park ever arise?
20 A: No.
21 Q: Did you eventually become involved in
22 Ipperwash-related issues?
23 A: Well, let me re-address that first
24 part because --
25 Q: Certainly.

122

1 A: -- it wasn't -- wasn't specifically
2 named as -- as the Park, but I remember people talking
3 about the -- the lands that -- along the -- along the
4 shore going up towards Grand Bend, that whole area.
5 Q: Okay. Can you be a little more
6 specific with respect to the territory?
7 A: Well, I understood it to be, when
8 they were talking was that there were -- there were lands
9 that -- that belonged to those peoples all the way along
10 that -- the shore. That's -- I always remember the shore
11 line, you know --
12 Q: Of Lake Huron?
13 A: Yeah.
14 Q: And -- and in what general area? Can
15 you give me just the parameters?
16 A: I don't know the extent of the inland
17 parameters, but I remember them talking about going --
18 going up the lake towards -- towards Grand Bend area. It
19 was -- that was a long time ago.
20 Q: Okay. Thank you. I guess my next
21 question was, did you eventually become involved in any
22 Ipperwash-related issues?
23 A: Yes, I did.
24 Q: And when did you first become
25 involved?

123

1 A: Well, there were some -- I don't know
2 -- I don't know what the year was, but I knew that there
3 was a -- there were some people who had put up some --
4 some trailer or something on a piece of property outside
5 of -- I guess that would be east of the main Base -- main
6 buildings at that time. And -- and individuals that told
7 me that -- that there were a number of things that were
8 happening in that particular area and --
9 Q: All right. Are you referring to when
10 the occupation of Camp Ipperwash commenced?
11 A: Yeah.
12 Q: Prior to that event, had you any --
13 well, let me ask you this, what was your initial
14 involvement?
15 A: My initial involvement was just
16 simply to go by --
17 Q: Okay.
18 A: -- and have a look.
19 Q: And did you become involved as -- in
20 your capacity as Regional Chief?
21 A: Later on I was requested to be able
22 to -- I guess, kind of play a -- a mediation role between
23 -- between two (2) parties.
24 Q: Which were the -- which two (2)
25 parties?

124

1 A: Which was the -- which was the -- the
2 people from Kettle Point and the people who were within
3 the Army Base at the time.
4 Q: All right.
5 A: Between the -- between the Chief and
6 Council and -- and those members that were there.
7 Q: So, the Chief and Council of Kettle
8 and Stony Point Band on the one (1) side --
9 A: Hmm hmm.
10 Q: -- and on the one (1) hand -- and
11 some of the people who were from the Stoney Point Group--
12 A: Yeah.
13 Q: -- on the other?
14 A: Yeah.
15 Q: All right. And do -- do you recall
16 when -- perhaps you can just describe what your -- what
17 your role was with respect to trying to mediate between
18 the two (2) parties.
19 A: I don't remember who actually called
20 me to be able to -- to begin the process, but I know that
21 what occurred was -- was a couple of meetings we sat down
22 and -- and -- and both -- both parties gave a view of --
23 of their ownership of the land and the relationship of
24 the land, being two (2) councils, being one (1) council,
25 being two (2) councils with one (1) governing body, you

125

1 know.
2 So, there were a variety of aspects of
3 what -- what those particular views were and what they
4 were trying to do was, they were trying to figure out to
5 be able to try to bring some reconciliation to -- to
6 where they were at.
7 Q: All right. And what did you
8 understand to be the -- the main issue, if you will, or
9 the main issue that was dividing the two?
10 A: I understood that there were -- there
11 were certain people who said that they -- they held the
12 lands of -- of the Base, which they considered to be
13 their own territory. And they said that prior to --
14 prior to those lands being taken by the Military that
15 they were a separate community.
16 I also heard from the other -- from the
17 Chief and Council saying that those lands were not
18 separated, they were two (2) communities with one (1)
19 governing body and that they've always -- always
20 functioned in that manner.
21 Q: And did these discussions occur
22 during the course of meetings?
23 A: Yes, they did.
24 Q: And I understand that the meetings
25 occurred sometime after the occupation of the Camp

126

1 started?
2 A: Yes, it would have, yes.
3 Q: Was it before the occupation of the
4 built-up area?
5 A: Yes, it was.
6 Q: All right. And do you recall what --
7 what year, then -- the occupation commenced in May of
8 1993 and the take -- occupation of the built-up area was
9 on July 29th, of '95, so can you give me a sense as to
10 when these meeting --
11 A: It would have probably been in
12 between those two (2) years, probably 1994, around there.
13 I don't remember the specific dates that it was.
14 Q: Oh, okay. Do you recall what season
15 it was?
16 A: I think it started -- I think our
17 dialogue started in the spring.
18 Q: Okay. And how many meetings do you
19 recall being at in this role?
20 A: Two (2), specifically, that I recall.
21 Q: All right.
22 A: Although it was on the phone a lot.
23 Q: On the phone a lot as well?
24 A: Yeah, yeah.
25 Q: All right. And where did these two

127

1 (2) meetings occur?
2 A: They occurred at the Chiefs of
3 Ontario office.
4 Q: All right. And where is that
5 located?
6 A: In Toronto, it was on 2 College
7 Street.
8 Q: Okay.
9 A: The second floor.
10 Q: And were the two (2) meetings -- how
11 much time passed between the two (2) meetings,
12 approximately? I'm just trying to get a sense of the
13 course.
14 A: They were very quick. They -- they
15 weren't -- there wasn't a great of separation between
16 them.
17 Q: All right. Do you recall who was in
18 attendance at these two (2) meetings or any of the people
19 who were in attendance?
20 A: Chief Tom Bressette was there and
21 some councillors. I don't remember -- I don't remember
22 who was there from Stoney Point. I think Maynard George
23 might have been part of that process or -- I can't say
24 for -- for certain who was -- who -- who was there.
25 Q: All right. Would that be Maynard T.

128

1 George?
2 A: Yes.
3 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether or not
4 Ron George was at any of these meetings?
5 A: I don't recall him being there, but
6 I'll just say that. I don't recall him being there.
7 Q: Okay. Did you take any notes or were
8 any notes taken on your behalf at these meetings?
9 A: That I don't recall either. But I
10 probably took notes because I was responsible for being
11 able to draft something from that.
12 Q: Were you able to locate any of your
13 notes?
14 A: No, I wasn't.
15 Q: Okay. And the focal -- what was the
16 focal point then of these -- these two (2) meetings?
17 A: The focal point was trying to figure
18 out how something could be advanced so that there could
19 be some space that was given between the two (2) parties.
20 At the end of the day one (1) of the issues that was
21 decided was that they should let the research be the --
22 the guiding force for that.
23 But the research indicated that there --
24 that there was one group under one (1) governing
25 authority then that's what they would go with. There

129

1 were two (2) groups and that's what they would deal with.
2 But it was -- it was -- it was to allow
3 for -- for ongoing research to be able to be conducted.
4 Q: All right. Is it fair to say that --
5 that part of this was trying to facilitate a working
6 relationship as between the two (2) communities?
7 A: Yes, that's fair.
8 Q: And was an understanding, at least a
9 tentative understanding in relation to setting up the
10 parameters of this working relationship put into writing?
11 A: Yes, it was.
12 Q: I wonder if you would go to Tab 1 of
13 your binder in front of you and it's Inquiry Document
14 Number 900020. It's a -- there's a cover fax sheet from
15 E.E. Hobbs and Associates Limited.
16 And you'll see -- well I'll ask you first,
17 do you know what interests or what purpose E.E. Hobbs and
18 Associates were -- were retained for?
19 A: I understood that Mr. Hobbs had been
20 able to negotiate other settlements in other places. And
21 that in fact he was retained to do some of that work as
22 well.
23 Q: And then at page 2 of that document,
24 there is a document entitled, "Agreement On Working
25 Relationships." It's a draft, it's dated July 13, 1993

130

1 and it appears to be three (3) pages. Now is this --
2 have you seen this document before?
3 A: Yes, I have.
4 Q: Is this the -- the tentative
5 agreement that was being discussed during the course of
6 your two (2) meetings?
7 A: Yes.
8 Q: And I just note that the date of this
9 document is July 13, 1993 and the date of the fax is July
10 14th, 1993. Does that refresh your memory at all as to
11 when these meetings likely occurred?
12 A: No.
13 Q: All right.
14 A: It says on the -- it says on there
15 1993 but I can't be certain and --
16 Q: All right.
17 A: -- but probably around that time
18 then.
19 Q: Okay, thank you. And I note that the
20 7th preamble states:
21 "And whereas Grand Chief Gordon Peters
22 has agreed to have the Chiefs of
23 Ontario participate in discussions in
24 order to facilitate the maintenance of
25 strong collective decisions within the

131

1 traditional unity and government of the
2 Chippewa of Kettle Point and Stoney
3 Point."
4 Was that a fairly accurate representation
5 of what you had agreed to do?
6 A: Yes.
7 Q: Thank you. I would like to make that
8 the next exhibit please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: P-291, Your Honour.
10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-291.
11
12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-291: Document Number 9000020, July
13 14/93 fax from Mr. Ernie
14 Hobbs, E.E. Hobbs and
15 Associates Limited to Mr. E.
16 Anthony Ross Re: "Chippewa
17 Draft Agreement" July 13/93.
18
19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA.
20 Q: Now just so that I understand, do you
21 recall whether this agreement was -- was produced in
22 between the meetings, the two (2) meetings or after the
23 two (2) meetings; do you have any recollection about the
24 timing of this in relation?
25 A: It was produced in between the two

132

1 (2) meetings.
2 Q: Okay. So as a result of discussions
3 of the first meeting?
4 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah. And I don't remember
5 whether we started from scratch with a draft or we
6 already part of a draft or, you know.
7 Q: Okay.
8 A: I remember actually we hadn't got to
9 the draft.
10 Q: Fair enough. And do you know whether
11 or not this draft agreement was ever finalized and
12 accepted by both parties?
13 A: No, it wasn't.
14 Q: Do you recall why it was not
15 ratified?
16 A: Question of who had ability to be
17 able to sign the document.
18 Q: Okay. And do you recall which party
19 had difficulty with -- with that? In other words which
20 party was --
21 A: It was questioned by -- by Kettle and
22 Stony Point whether or not the Stoney Pointers -- at the
23 time the Stoney Point Group had any -- any ability to be
24 able to sign the document.
25 Q: Okay. I wonder if you would next, go

133

1 to Tab 2 in your binder and it's Inquiry Document number
2 9000030. It's a -- it appears to be a letter from Ronald
3 George to Chiefs of Ontario to your attention dated July
4 27, 1993, and it would appear to set out some concerns
5 raised by Mr. George on behalf of the Stoney Point Group;
6 do you recall receiving this letter?
7 A: Vaguely.
8 Q: All right. I wonder if we could make
9 that the next exhibit?
10 THE REGISTRAR: P-292, Your Honour.
11
12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-292: Document Number 9000030,
13 Letter from Ronald C. George
14 Law Office to Chiefs of
15 Ontario, Attention: Gord
16 Peters, July 27/93, Re:
17 Agreement on working
18 relationships, Kettle
19 Point/Stoney Point.
20
21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
22 Q: And what was your understanding with
23 respect to the capacity that Mr. George was acting in
24 when he wrote this letter?
25 A: I said, "vaguely," so I don't

134

1 remember the capacity that he was in. As I say, I don't
2 recall whether he was at the meetings.
3 Q: Okay. Now, this -- you'll see in the
4 first paragraph, there is an indication that there was a
5 meeting on July 22, 1993, between members of the Kettle
6 Point and Stoney Point councils held at your office and -
7 - and the Stoney Point community then met on July 26th,
8 1993.
9 Do you have any reason to dispute the
10 accuracy of -- of the timing of the meeting suggested
11 here with respect to the meeting at your office?
12 A: No, I don't, not at all.
13 Q: And it would appear that -- that some
14 amendments were being proposed on behalf of the Stoney
15 Point community?
16 A: Yes.
17 Q: All right. And also it indicates
18 that the individuals at Stoney Point had not, in fact,
19 ratified the agreement. Does that refresh your memory at
20 all as to --
21 A: It was not ratified by either party.
22 Q: Okay. And Mr. George is putting out
23 here the reasons -- at least some of the principles which
24 the Stoney Point community wished to have honoured and
25 acknowledged as -- as part of any working relationship

135

1 reflected at page 2?
2 A: Hmm hmm, yes.
3 Q: All right. That the Stoney Point
4 Band be given full band status pursuant to the provisions
5 of the Indian Act; that the Stoney Point Reserve Number
6 43 be returned to the Stoney Point Band, compensation be
7 made to the Stoney Point Band, compensation be made to
8 the Kettle Point Band and throughout the process, the
9 membership of the Stoney Point Band, particularly the
10 elders, will not be encouraged to leave Stoney Point.
11 Now, did these points become the subject
12 of the next meeting?
13 A: Well, I can't tell you if there was
14 another meeting because I don't recall whether there was
15 or not.
16 Q: Okay, fair enough. In any event, did
17 you understand these to be the primary concerns of the
18 Stoney Point Group and -- and what they wished to have
19 recognized?
20 A: Yes.
21 Q: Thank you. After the end of these
22 meetings, then, in the summer of 1993 or thereabouts, did
23 either branch of the Chiefs of Ontario have any further
24 involvement in the Stoney Point -- or in the Ipperwash
25 dispute with respect to the -- the disagreement between

136

1 Stoney Point and the Kettle and Stony Point Band?
2 A: I -- I don't think so. I don't think
3 we had any at all.
4 Q: Okay. Did you, personally, visit the
5 -- the former Stoney Point Reserve Number 43 after the
6 occupation started?
7 A: I believe I was there once.
8 Q: All right. And what was the purpose
9 of visiting there?
10 A: To visit.
11 Q: Just to visit?
12 A: Yeah.
13 Q: Was it -- was it in your official
14 capacity?
15 A: No.
16 Q: Did you have occasion to attend at
17 the built-up area after the occupation by the Stoney
18 Point Group on July 29th, 1995, but prior to the
19 occupation of the Park?
20 A: I think I was in there once. I think
21 I went in there with Bob Antone once.
22 Q: And can you recall what the purpose
23 of that was?
24 A: I think they were trying to -- they
25 were having some kind of an organizational meeting. They

137

1 were trying to get organized around some of the issues.
2 Q: Okay. Organizational meetings
3 surrounding what issues?
4 A: Among themselves.
5 Q: So internal governance type --
6 governance-type issues? I'm just trying to understand.
7 A: I wouldn't call it internal
8 governance but, you know, trying to organize themselves.
9 And, you know, there's families, different families and
10 different groups that were there and they were just
11 simply trying to get themselves organized and how they
12 were going to deal with things.
13 Q: And were you there in your official
14 capacity as Regional Chief?
15 A: No. I was -- I was there as a friend
16 of Bob Antone who was going...
17 Q: All right. Were you present on the
18 day that the built-up area was taken over?
19 A: No, I wasn't.
20 Q: Were you present on the day that --
21 that the occupiers first entered the Army Camp?
22 A: No, I wasn't.
23 Q: During any of your visits to the
24 former Stoney Point Indian Reserve 43, did you see any
25 guns present?

138

1 A: No, I haven't. No, I didn't.
2 Q: During the course of your visits,
3 were you aware as to whether or not there continued to be
4 any tensions or lack of working relationship between the
5 Stoney Point Group and the Kettle and Stony Point Band?
6 A: Yes, it was ongoing and it was --
7 because it was in the media all the time.
8 Q: Okay. And did that give you any
9 concern with respect to what was happening at Camp
10 Ipperwash?
11 A: I didn't have a role in that process.
12 I wasn't formally invited to participate in any -- any
13 other kinds of processes that they were -- they were
14 trying to establish.
15 Q: All right. Did you have any advance
16 notice that members of the Stoney Point group were
17 intending to occupy the Ipperwash Provincial Park?
18 A: No, I didn't.
19 Q: Were you consulted in advance at all
20 with respect to possible plans to occupy the Park?
21 A: No, I wasn't.
22 Q: Did you attend at the Park at anytime
23 between September 4th and 6th, 1995?
24 A: No, I did not.
25 Q: Did you speak with anyone concerning

139

1 the occupation of the Park between September 4th and 6th,
2 1995?
3 A: No, I did not.
4 Q: Do you recall where you were during
5 the course of those days in terms of what -- what city or
6 province you were in?
7 A: No.
8 Q: No, okay. Had you -- had you been
9 called upon by any person -- sorry -- had you been called
10 upon by any prior Aboriginal party to negotiate or
11 facilitate the resolution of an occupation?
12 A: No, not in -- not in those -- in
13 those kinds of terms.
14 Q: All right. Similarly, have you been
15 called upon by any police force or government to assist
16 in resolution of occupation?
17 A: Yes.
18 Q: What -- what entity?
19 A: The student -- the student
20 occupations that went on in the late '80's.
21 Q: Who -- who invited you or requested
22 that you assist?
23 A: We were -- we were asked -- well,
24 actually, the entire assembly was asked, the Open
25 Assembly was asked by both the -- by both the students to

140

1 get involved and also by government to get involved --
2 Q: Okay.
3 A: -- and take a role in trying to help
4 resolve some of the issues.
5 Q: Fair enough. Had you been called
6 upon by any of the parties, whether it be the -- the OPP
7 or the Band, the government or the Stoney Point group, to
8 render assistance in resolving the occupation of the
9 Ipperwash Provincial Park, would you have been available
10 to render assistance?
11 A: Yes.
12 Q: And what assistance do you think you
13 could have rendered in this particular case?
14 A: Hindsight is pretty good, I guess, in
15 -- in terms of the kinds of things that we look at but --
16 Q: Certainly.
17 A: -- I think -- I think the first part
18 of any kind of resolution that people have is ability to
19 be able to talk. You can go back and forth and talk to
20 the parties to be able to see what's going on.
21 You can -- you can see if there's any room
22 for any movement, anything that might -- might help you
23 to be able to get any kind of movement at all, you know,
24 that -- that would be the first thing that we'd normally
25 do in any place.

141

1 Q: And based on your -- your experience
2 and your prior involvement with this group and with the
3 Kettle and Stony Point Band, do you think that you would
4 have had the ability to, in fact, talk to the people
5 there, at the Park?
6 A: I would have been able to talk to
7 them. I don't know if they would have been able -- they
8 would have taken any advice I would have given them.
9 Q: All right. Well, that's what I'm
10 interested in knowing whether --
11 A: But I did -- but I did have access to
12 them and I -- I didn't have the ability to be able to
13 talk with them.
14 Q: When did you first become aware of
15 the fact that the -- that certain members of the Stoney
16 Point group had commenced occupying the Park?
17 A: It was the day after they went into
18 the Park.
19 Q: So about September the 5th then?
20 A: Yeah.
21 Q: And -- and by what means did you
22 learn of this?
23 A: I think it was in the media.
24 Somebody called me and asked me to read some articles or
25 -- I know I was contacted anyway by somebody. I don't

142

1 remember who.
2 Q: All right. Do you recall what your
3 reaction was when you found out about this event?
4 A: No. I don't. I don't recall at all.
5 Q: When did you first become aware of
6 the physical confrontation between the police and the
7 occupiers which occurred in the evening of September the
8 6th, 1995?
9 A: Early in the morning the next day.
10 Q: Early the September 7th?
11 A: Yes.
12 Q: And how did you first learn about the
13 fact of the confrontation?
14 A: I think the first -- the first time I
15 heard was that I got a call from a reporter asking me to
16 comment on -- on the notion that the Premier had said,
17 Get them 'F' ing Indians out of the Park. It was fairly
18 early in the morning.
19 Q: And as a result of becoming aware
20 then of -- of the confrontation what, if anything, did
21 you do?
22 A: Well, I -- I started heading for --
23 for this area.
24 Q: And do you recall where you were
25 coming from?

143

1 A: I don't know. I was -- I was coming
2 up from around New Market.
3 Q: Okay.
4 A: New Market area.
5 Q: Did you speak with anybody else aside
6 from the reporter during -- prior to your arriving to the
7 Ipperwash area?
8 A: I got a call -- I got a call from
9 somebody from the -- from the Kettle Point Band.
10 Q: Do you recall who?
11 A: I don't know. I remem -- I think it
12 was -- I think it was Paul, I don't remember what his
13 last name is.
14 Q: Okay. And what did you learn from
15 this telephone conversation?
16 A: I learned that -- I learned that --
17 that people were in the Park; that police -- police had
18 built up a substantial force around there and that they
19 were still there and that there was a threat of another
20 invasion by the police into the -- into the Park and the
21 Base.
22 Q: And why did you determine that you
23 should head down towards the Ipperwash area?
24 A: Anytime there's a police action,
25 anytime anything occurs of that kind of nature, it's -- a

144

1 lot of people will head to those places and I didn't head
2 there in an official capacity in the first part. I
3 headed there because, you know, that's -- that's what
4 people do, you know. We try to figure out what they can
5 do for assistance and what might be possible.
6 Q: And approximately what time did you
7 arrive in the Ipperwash area?
8 A: It was some time mid morning.
9 Q: Okay. And where did you go to first?
10 A: I don't know. I don't remember.
11 Q: Okay, fair enough.
12 A: I remember there was a fire on the
13 road. And I don't know if I went into the Band office
14 first, or -- I think the Band office was closed. I think
15 I might have went into the restaurant that was in the
16 mall.
17 Q: Oh, yes. At --
18 A: And then from there I went back over
19 to the -- I went over to the Park.
20 Q: Okay. Over to the Park itself?
21 A: Yeah. I went into the -- I went into
22 the -- I went into the barracks and from the barracks
23 they took me to the back of the Park. And they -- they
24 showed me the events that have taken place and they --
25 they gave me their account of what occurred that evening.

145

1 Q: All right. I -- I wonder if you
2 would go to Tab 28, it's Inquiry Document Number 1002419.
3 And this appears to be log created by the OPP, and if you
4 would look at -- well, it's marked as page 309, but it's
5 the second page of this production -- at 16:00 hours, the
6 entry at 16:00 hours indicates:
7 "Miles Bressette, First Nation
8 Constable from Kettle Point is at the
9 above location with negotiators Gord
10 Peters and Marvin Connors. Everyone
11 has left the scene."
12 And the above location appears to be
13 referring to the command post.
14 A: Excuse me, where are you at?
15 Q: I'm at Tab 28.
16 A: Hmm hmm.
17 Q: Second page.
18 A: Okay.
19 Q: And the entry is 16:00 hours.
20 A: Okay.
21 Q: Now, do you recall being at the --
22 the command post with Miles Bressette and Marvin Connors
23 at about four o'clock on September the -- the 7th. Oh,
24 I'm sorry.
25 A: This --

146

1 Q: Excuse me, I've taken you to -- I've
2 jumped too far in the chronology.
3 A: It's September 16th.
4 Q: My apologies. I'll address that a
5 little bit later, excuse me.
6 A: Okay.
7 Q: Okay. Let's go back to -- to the --
8 the Army Camp, then. Did you have to through any
9 checkpoint in order to get into the Army Camp?
10 A: Yes.
11 Q: All right. Did you have -- and did -
12 - did you have to have clearance to go into the -- the
13 Army Camp?
14 A: As a I recall yes, I did.
15 Q: All right. And approximately what
16 time would that have been?
17 A: I would have probably gone in there
18 probably right before lunch, around that time.
19 Q: All right. What were your
20 observations when -- with respect to the emotional state
21 of the occupiers when you entered the Army Camp?
22 A: Very agitated. A lot of people were
23 in a -- in a very excited state. There was -- there were
24 -- they believed that the OPP were going to attack
25 again --

147

1 Q: Hmm hmm.
2 A: -- and they -- they believed that the
3 OPP were not only going to deal with the Park, but they
4 were going to take everybody out of the barracks as well.
5 Q: And what was the basis upon which you
6 formed this impression?
7 A: From some of the dialogue that --
8 that people had indicated.
9 Q: Was anybody with you at the time of -
10 - of your entry into the Army Camp?
11 A: No, I was alone.
12 Q: Okay. How long did you remain there?
13 A: I don't know, maybe an hour; maybe an
14 hour and a half.
15 Q: All right. And did you, at that
16 point, make any determinations as to what your next steps
17 would be?
18 A: I went back to -- I went back to --
19 to Kettle Point. There was a meeting that was called in
20 the afternoon. Ovide was arriving and people were
21 getting together to be able to determine what needed to
22 be done.
23 Q: All right. Did you attend that
24 meeting?
25 A: Yes, I did.

148

1 Q: And what transpired during the course
2 of that meeting?
3 A: There was a number of things that
4 transpired. I think it was at that meeting where --
5 where the Lands Claims gentleman came in and indicated
6 that there was no -- there was no burial ground in that
7 area. There were a number of things that were presented.
8 Also -- also basic information on -- on what had happened
9 that morning and the need to be able to -- to start being
10 able to get some political action going.
11 Q: Do you recall who the Land Claims
12 gentleman was or where he was from?
13 A: No, he was a -- he was a non-
14 indigenous man.
15 Q: Okay. And in terms of political
16 actions, did you determine as to whether any political
17 actions were warranted on behalf of the Chiefs of Ontario
18 at that time?
19 A: It was -- it was determined that we
20 need to be able to take immediate action based on the
21 notion that -- that the potential threat that people felt
22 that the OPP were going to go back into the Camp and into
23 the Base, and -- and also based on -- on the fact that
24 there appeared to be more -- more police coming into the
25 area.

149

1 Q: And did you, in fact, take any
2 immediate action politically on behalf of the Chiefs of
3 Ontario on the 7th?
4 A: I recall making telephone calls and
5 one (1) of the things that I -- I did was I tracked down
6 the lawyer that was supposed to do the injunction. I
7 called the ONAS (phonetic) offices. I -- I was told that
8 he was at home, that he wasn't -- he wasn't being able to
9 be reached.
10 After a short conversation with the
11 individual, they gave me his home number. Called him at
12 home. I asked him about the -- the injunction and he
13 told me that they didn't have an injunction, that they
14 were going to the court the following morning.
15 And I asked him -- I asked him to cease
16 and desist his activities because people felt very
17 clearly that if the injunction process was pursued that -
18 - that the police would act again.
19 Q: And based on your conversation with
20 this individual, did you form any impression as to
21 whether notwithstanding your advice, they were going to
22 proceed with an injunction?
23 A: No, I got the distinct impression
24 that the plan was already in place to be able to go ahead
25 and get it.

150

1 Q: All right. Do you recall the name of
2 the lawyer?
3 A: Mr. McCabe.
4 Q: Did you make any other contact with
5 members of the Provincial Government that day?
6 A: We tried to. But we were
7 unsuccessful.
8 Q: And what attempts did you make?
9 A: We called through -- we called
10 through to various ministries. We also called back
11 through to our offices in Toronto and tried to get people
12 to be able to call through and we started writing letters
13 getting information together to be able to start
14 providing correspondence.
15 Q: Did you cause a letter to be written
16 to Premier Mike Harris on that day?
17 A: Yeah I think it was in the afternoon
18 of that day.
19 Q: I would like to show you a document.
20 It's Inquiry Document Number 1009973. And the first page
21 is the Minister's request followed by a fax sheet to the
22 Honourable Mike Harris followed by a letter dated
23 September 7, 1995 addressed to the Honourable Mike
24 Harris. And it appears to have you signature; is that
25 your signature?

151

1 A: Yes, it is.
2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to make
3 this the next exhibit.
4 THE REGISTRAR: P-293, Your Honour.
5
6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-293: Document Number 1009973,
7 Letter to Premier Mike Harris
8 from Chiefs of Ontario,
9 September 7/95 Re: Ipperwash
10 Provincial Park.
11
12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA.
13 Q: And what were you requesting of the
14 Premier on September 7th, 1995?
15 A: For his direct intervention to be
16 able to cease and desist and get a meeting set up so that
17 people could come and start to talk about how to deal
18 with the matter that was currently before us.
19 Q: Did you receive a response from the
20 Premier or anyone on his behalf, to this letter?
21 A: I don't believe so.
22 Q: On that day did you receive any
23 response?
24 A: I don't -- I don't recall getting a
25 response.

152

1 Q: All right. Did you have any
2 communication with the Premier on that day?
3 A: None. I think -- I think the only
4 people we were able to contact were some of the -- we
5 tried to get a hold of -- we tried to get a hold of their
6 -- of the -- of the scheduling secretary and other people
7 to be able to find out where he was and what he was doing
8 and how we could get access to him.
9 That wasn't done by me directly. That was
10 done through the -- the Chiefs of Ontario office.
11 Q: All right, thank you. I wonder -- I
12 would like to show you one (1) further document. It's
13 Inquiry Document Number 14000060. And this is a letter
14 dated September 29, 1995 addressed to Chief Gordon
15 Peters, and it appears to be from Michael B. Harris, MPP,
16 from the Premier of Ontario.
17 Do you recall receiving this letter?
18 A: Yes, I do.
19 Q: And was this a response to the letter
20 that you wrote?
21 A: I could only assume so.
22 Q: Okay. And what was the message that
23 you took from the Premier's letter?
24 A: Well, I guess, first of all, when you
25 start at the top of this, you know, it's -- it's now

153

1 twenty (20) what twenty-two (22) days later that we'd
2 written to him. And -- and a person has been shot and
3 killed and other people have been wounded. And -- and
4 you get a letter twenty-two (22) days later saying as you
5 know I've -- I met with the Assembly of First Nations,
6 Ovide Mercredie. It wasn't that he met with him, he was
7 forced to meet with him, because they had a sit-in at his
8 office in order to be able to meet with him.
9 The same procedure, you know, they
10 wouldn't negotiate with the occupiers until they leave
11 Ipperwash Provincial Park. That didn't stop them from
12 being able to talk to other people, you know. There are
13 other solutions that could have been generated in other
14 ways other than having to be able to deal with people who
15 were inside the -- the barracks and the Park.
16 And I -- I thought that -- I thought that
17 this was a very closed letter, it was -- it was meant to
18 cut off communication. It was meant to say there's
19 nothing that I can do about the situation and it's now a
20 -- a police matter and it will be restored -- it will be
21 -- only be dealt with by the police and that let's get on
22 to something else differently. Let's get on with some
23 economics and let's get on with some job creation and
24 let's not even talk about this anymore, you know.
25 Q: I'd like -- I'd like to make this the

154

1 next exhibit, please?
2 THE REGISTRAR: P-294, Your Honour.
3
4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-294: Document Number 14000060,
5 Letter to Chief Gordon Peters
6 from Premier Mike Harris, Re:
7 Ipperwash Provincial Park.
8
9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
10 Q: Did you have -- did you also cause
11 certain statements to be released to -- to the Aboriginal
12 community on behalf of the Chiefs of Ontario on September
13 the 7th, with respect to this matter?
14 A: Yes, I did, partly because we needed
15 to respond to the media. The first -- the first thing
16 that we heard from the media was that -- that people in -
17 - in the Park had fired upon the police and the police
18 returned fire. And when we went through the Park and we
19 -- we talked to everybody it was really clear that they
20 had no weapons and that -- and that it was the police who
21 -- who fired.
22 So part of what we were trying to do
23 immediately was trying to get a message out to our
24 communities that, first of all, that this -- about the --
25 the facts of which had taken place, but also about

155

1 requesting assistance.
2 Q: And you said that when you went
3 through the Park it was clear to you that there had been
4 no weapons. Now, can you just advise me as to the basis
5 upon which you came to that conclusion on September the
6 7th?
7 A: I asked.
8 Q: All right.
9 A: I asked and I was told that there
10 were no weapons that were in the Park -- no guns that
11 were in the Park.
12 Q: Okay. And would you -- would you
13 please go to Tab 6 of your binder, it's Inquiry Document
14 number 1011862 and it's a letter dated September 7, 1995,
15 to all First Nations in Ontario. It appears to have your
16 signature; is that your signature at the bottom of the
17 page?
18 A: Yes, it is.
19 Q: All right. And attached to it is a
20 list of the Cabinet -- the Ontario Cabinet Ministers with
21 handwritten numbers and then a bulletin -- a two (2) page
22 bulletin attached to that entitled, "Incident at
23 Ipperwash."
24 Is this a package that you caused to be
25 sent to all First Nations in Ontario?

156

1 A: Yes.
2 Q: And what was the purpose of sending
3 this particular package to the First Nations?
4 A: Well, if you -- if you believe the
5 media and their story, then it -- then you believe only
6 one (1) part of the story. And in order to be able to
7 get some information out to the communities that was --
8 that was directed from our side of the table and being
9 able to understand the situation from our point of view,
10 then you would have some balanced reporting within the
11 communities.
12 So, the -- the information gets sent down,
13 the request for assistance, the -- the request to try to
14 politically motivate the government to be able to become
15 involved in this issue, to be able to end things and now
16 to be able to withdraw the police, to look at ways of
17 resolving some of the issues.
18 All those kinds of things are all bundled
19 up in the -- in the one (1) package. And -- and we felt
20 that there was -- we felt that there was an immediate
21 need for people to be able to do something, to be able to
22 demonstrate their concern and to be able to demonstrate
23 that this was unacceptable action by any government at
24 any stage of our -- of our relationship.
25 Q: And so the purpose then, of this

157

1 bulletin was to -- to impart -- at least to ask the First
2 Nations to become involved on a political level?
3 A: Yes, and support, I mean, I -- I
4 think what happens in any -- in any kind of situation you
5 ask for support because people are coming in from all
6 over the place and already there were people that were
7 already there and so you have to be able to feed them.
8 There's things that are required and so that's generally
9 what you ask for, for support from people and that's what
10 they provide.
11 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the
12 next exhibit, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: P-295, Your Honour.
14
15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-295: Document Number 1011862,
16 September 7/05 letter to all
17 First Nations in Ontario from
18 Gordon Peters, Ontario
19 Regional Chief.
20
21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
22 Q: And did you also cause any press
23 statements to be released on behalf of the Chiefs of
24 Ontario on September the 7th, 1995?
25 A: I imagine so, there -- there were a

158

1 lot of press that were there. There were a lot of --
2 there were a lot of media, there were a lot of people
3 that were there. And so it was a constant need to be
4 able to address the media to -- to reflect the point of
5 view that was coming from -- from the indigenous people.
6 Q: All right. And why did you determine
7 that that was an important message to get out to the
8 media?
9 A: Well, there were two (2) things that
10 were going on. First of all, when I got invited to come
11 into the community, there was a clear role that was
12 played between -- between Ovide and myself. Ovide took
13 on more of the political stuff, I took on the grass roots
14 stuff. I worked with the people, I went with the
15 peacekeepers, I -- I was part of negotiating. I did all
16 those kinds of things as an ongoing basis.
17 And so I had information, I had access to
18 information. And it was -- it was necessary for us to be
19 able to get that information out so that, not only our
20 people but -- but the public could hear from us what --
21 what we understood and what we knew about the situation.
22 Q: All right. And would you look at the
23 document at Tab 9 of your binder, it's Inquiry Document
24 1006430, and it's a news release from the Chiefs of
25 Ontario dated September 7, 1995, entitled, "Chiefs of

159

1 Ontario condemn killings at Ipperwash Park." It's, in
2 fact, a one (1) page document, it just comes from a
3 multi-page production.
4 And is this the news release that you
5 authorized to be released on behalf of the Chiefs of
6 Ontario that day?
7 A: Yes, it is.
8 Q: All right. I'd like to make that the
9 next exhibit, please.
10 THE REGISTRAR: P-296, Your Honour.
11
12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-296: Document Number 1006430,
13 September 7/95, Chiefs of
14 Ontario News Release "Chiefs
15 of Ontario Condemn Killings
16 at Ipperwash Park."
17
18 THE WITNESS: I think you'll notice that
19 immediately we started to call for an inquiry and it was
20 necessary, because we're all knowledgeable and -- and
21 understand the -- the process of the SIU. And right from
22 the beginning we never felt it was the appropriate
23 vehicle to be able to -- to deal with the situation, and
24 that we had never -- we had never experienced this
25 before. And we felt that -- very strongly, that there

160

1 should be an inquiry immediately to be able to deal with
2 this matter.
3
4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
5 Q: All right. And I note that the
6 second-last paragraph of this production P-296 indicated
7 that:
8 "Chief Peters stressed the need to meet
9 with Federal and Provincial Cabinet
10 Ministers to discuss this formation of
11 alternative mechanisms to resolve
12 disputes such as these. Quote, 'It's
13 time that the Federal and Provincial
14 Governments start to seriously consider
15 how they can address occurrences such
16 as this without killing our people,'
17 close quote, he said."
18 Now, firstly, is that -- is that quote
19 attributed to you properly?
20 A: Yes, it is. And I guess by the
21 letter we kind of serious, we said, "to discuss formation
22 of alternative mechanisms," twice.
23 Q: Right. I --
24 A: So, there's a little bit of a --
25 Q: -- I saw that. And what were you

161

1 getting at when you made this statement; was it specific
2 to Ipperwash or something else?
3 A: Well, we had just come through -- we
4 had just come through all these protests. We come to the
5 student -- the student demonstrations, where police were
6 involved. We come through Oka, where the police and the
7 Army were involved, you know and now, you know, we're at
8 -- we're at Ipperwash, Gustafson is going on. There were
9 no formal mechanisms in place.
10 There were informal mechanisms that were
11 in place, where people would talk, you know, where people
12 would be contacted, where information would be sought,
13 where clarification would be required. All of those
14 kinds of things would take place normally in -- in any
15 given situation.
16 But what -- what we started to be able to
17 call for was let's figure out how to be able to build
18 some kind of mechanism so that this kind of thing never
19 occurs again --
20 Q: All right.
21 A: -- you know, it was that important to
22 be able to do it formally.
23 Q: So, in other words, the prior
24 negotiations were done on an ad hoc basis but you -- your
25 position of the Chiefs of -- of Ontario was that when

162

1 this type of dispute occurs there should be a formal
2 mechanism that facilitates resolution?
3 A: Yeah. There -- there is a formal --
4 there was a formal internal process that was created
5 within government about how they would respond. A number
6 of -- of ministers who would gather, they would discuss
7 the issue, da da da da, you know, and -- and how they
8 would deal with that. But there was no formal mechanism
9 between ourselves and government.
10 Informal, because we met, we talked, we
11 tried to figure things out, you know, and what might be
12 the best approaches to certain areas. But nothing that
13 would -- we could say was, when something occurred,
14 here's how it's going to be dealt with.
15 Q: All right. And when you say,
16 "between us and the government," do you mean the
17 mechanism between the Chiefs of Ontario and the
18 government or some other entity?
19 A: Between indigenous people in general,
20 because we're only one (1) -- one (1) element of the
21 Assembly of First Nation, which stretches all the way
22 across the country.
23 Q: All right. And is this the proposal
24 that -- that you had put forward before this event?
25 A: Well, we have -- we have tried, years

163

1 prior, to put all kinds of -- and we have put all kinds
2 of proposals on the table to create all kinds of
3 solutions to issues, to working relationships, to create
4 dispute resolution mechanisms, all kinds of areas and
5 issues that we have tried to address.
6 Q: Hmm hmm.
7 A: And even just prior to that, in the
8 Charlottetown Accord process of the constitutional
9 discussions, we also looked for mechanisms in areas that
10 could be used between various jurisdictions to resolve
11 issues that might arise.
12 And so we were constantly trying to find
13 those kinds of mechanisms because we were always at the -
14 - at the will of governments who -- who could
15 unilaterally determine to take action.
16 Q: And was there any specific proposal
17 on the table with the Ontario Government at the time of
18 the Park occupation, in other words, in the September
19 4th, '95 time frame?
20 A: We had created an arrangement with
21 the -- with the Ontario Government prior to the
22 Conservative government coming in. It was called the
23 Statement of Political Relationships and how we were
24 going to negotiate, how we were going to build
25 relationships, but we hadn't built the formal mechanism

164

1 to be able to resolve disputes.
2 The only mechanisms that we had, we -- we
3 had -- we had a process called the -- the Tripartite
4 Forum or the Indian -- Indian Commission of Ontario where
5 issues were brought into that kind of forum for
6 discussion. But -- but the only forums that we had, that
7 we created as we went along, bilateral processes between
8 both the Province and the Federal Government to be able
9 to try to work things out.
10 Q: All right. In the statement of
11 political relationships that you had in place was that
12 still in place in -- on September the 4th of '95?
13 A: I don't think it's ever been
14 rescinded by any government, but in practical terms it
15 wasn't on the table.
16 Q: Okay. All right. Do you have a copy
17 of the Statement of Political Relationships that you're
18 referring to?
19 A: I don't have one with me.
20 Q: All right. Would you be able to
21 obtain a copy?
22 A: I imagine the Chiefs of Ontario would
23 have one.
24 Q: All right. Thank you. Were you
25 present at a conference which apparently took place on

165

1 September the 7th, 1995 with various First Nations
2 leaders?
3 A: Yes, I was.
4 Q: And who initiated this call; whose
5 idea was it?
6 A: It was part of a strategy that came
7 out of that -- that meeting we had in early afternoon.
8 Q: At the -- at the Stony and Kettle
9 Point Reserve?
10 A: Yeah. It was at the school. I think
11 we were in the school, in fact.
12 Q: And what was the purpose of this
13 call?
14 A: Information, it was always necessary
15 to get people informed. As I said, the communique is one
16 (1) thing, but being able to talk to people and allow
17 them to ask questions is another thing.
18 And so -- so that people would understand
19 what was happening and also to urge them to be able to
20 talk to their communities and get them involved in being
21 able to send faxes into government, to be able to make
22 calls to their local MP's, anything they could do to be
23 able to -- to create political awareness of this issue.
24 Q: All right. And would you go to Tab
25 75 of your binder, please?

166

1 A: 75?
2 Q: 75. It's the very last -- it should
3 be the very last tab of your binder. Do you -- do you
4 have Tab 75 there? It's -- the -- the cover sheet is
5 from the Assembly of First Nations dated September 7,
6 1995. There's a memorandum, a notice, and then there's -
7 - there appears to be notes of a conference call dated
8 September 7, 1995, with various participants, including
9 yourself.
10 A: Yes.
11 Q: All right. And did you have an
12 opportunity to review this transcript or at least these
13 notes prior to -- to today?
14 A: Yes, I have.
15 Q: And did they -- do they generally
16 reflect accurately what transpired during the course of
17 that telephone conversation to the best of your
18 recollection?
19 A: Yeah. I -- I went through it and
20 those are -- those are generally the things that
21 transpired.
22 Q: All right.
23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to make
24 this document the next exhibit.
25 THE REGISTRAR: P-297, Your Honour. Do

167

1 you have a document number on that one, Ms. Vella.
2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I -- no, I don't have
3 an Enquiry Document Number on this particular one.
4
5 (BRIEF PAUSE)
6
7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much.
8 This is Inquiry Document Number 9000268. I'm also
9 advised it's Exhibit P-252. So perhaps you don't need to
10 mark this one as an exhibit as well.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Okay. Strike that one,
12 Your Honour.
13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you.
14
15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA.
16 Q: Now what was your particular role at
17 this call?
18 A: What's my role?
19 Q: Yes.
20 A: This is in the morning as I recall.
21 This is a -- this is a -- this is trying to get some of
22 the Ontario leaders of the Provincial/Territorial
23 organizations updated and trying to get -- I think also
24 we had the national -- and the National Executive come
25 across the country.

168

1 It was a call -- it was a call that was
2 set up after Ovide had spoken to Tom again in the morning
3 as understood that. And the need to be able to -- to
4 clarify what needed to be done, some of the things that
5 needed to be done.
6 Q: All right. And I wonder if you could
7 go to page 4 of that -- of those notes. And there is a
8 statement that's attributed to you, as follows:
9 "The Minister of Natural Resources
10 called me for a meeting today. I've
11 been trying for a meeting with him for
12 a long time. Now he wants advice."
13 And first of all this is still September
14 the 7th, did you receive a -- a call from the Minister of
15 Natural Resources on the 7th?
16 A: If I did it would've probably come
17 through our office.
18 Q: All right. And you make -- you make
19 the comment -- do you recall what it was that the
20 Minister wanted to meet with you about?
21 A: No, I don't.
22 Q: Did you in fact have a meeting with
23 the Minister at or around this time?
24 A: No, I did not.
25 Q: And you make a comment:

169

1 "I've been trying for a meeting with
2 him for a long time. Now he wants
3 advice."
4 Does that refresh your memory, at all, as
5 what --
6 A: We were trying to meet with him. We
7 were trying to -- there was a number of outstanding
8 issues that we were trying to address with -- with the
9 government. One (1) of them was the -- was the closure
10 of -- of negotiations around the Williams Treaty.
11 They shot that -- there were a number of
12 other incidents that had gone on with the MNR and we were
13 trying to get -- we were trying to get a meeting
14 established and we weren't getting any place.
15 Q: Okay. All right. Do you recall
16 whether you had any -- any meetings or contact with any
17 Provincial Ministers in or around this time, the early
18 part of the aftermath of the shooting?
19 A: I don't recollect any meetings. I
20 don't -- I don't remember meeting with the Provincial
21 Government representatives for -- for some time.
22 Q: Okay. Now did you have a -- do you
23 recall having a conference call on September the 8th with
24 various First Nations leaders and also Robert Runciman
25 who was the Solicitor General at that time.

170

1 A: I -- I do.
2 Q: All right.
3 A: I do, yeah. I didn't know the
4 details of it until I read the document again. But I
5 remember -- I remember we were always trying to get in
6 contact with somebody within the Provincial Government
7 and --
8 Q: All right.
9 A: -- and Runciman -- Runciman would
10 have been the Solicitor General at the time.
11 Q: Fair enough. Thank you. If you
12 would go to Tab 16, and it's Inquiry Document Number
13 1001680. This appears to be notes, typed notes of a
14 conference call with Robert Runciman, Chief Tom
15 Bressette, Joe Hare, Gordon Peters and Ovide Mercredi.
16 And having had a look at this, does this
17 refresh your memory with respect to there being a
18 conference call the next day, that is September the 8th?
19 A: Yes.
20 Q: And what was -- can you recall who
21 initiated this call?
22 A: I think what we had been trying to do
23 -- well, I think -- I know what we had been trying to do.
24 We were -- had been trying -- we had been trying to get
25 anybody from the Provincial Government, any minister, any

171

1 cabinet minister to respond to us.
2 And I think -- I think Runciman did call
3 and he did set up this meeting, and I'm pretty sure it
4 came from his offices.
5 Q: All right. And did you -- what was
6 the general purpose of this meeting, of this conference
7 call, from your perspective?
8 A: And, again, I think as we kept going
9 through all these issues we were trying to get somebody
10 on the line to be able to take some responsibility. We
11 were trying to get any Provincial Cabinet Minister to
12 have them -- have them understand the seriousness of the
13 situation that was going on.
14 And that -- I mean, the people still felt
15 that with the OPP -- and it seemed like more OPP were
16 coming in after the first day. And there was a concern
17 that -- that something else was going to happen. And we
18 -- we were trying to get people to be able to -- to deal
19 with the situation. We were trying to get people to de-
20 escalate the police.
21 Q: And -- and did you stay in the
22 Ipperwash area overnight and into September the 8th?
23 A: Yes, I did.
24 Q: Do you remember how long you did stay
25 then at -- in the Ipperwash area?

172

1 A: I probably stayed there for -- in
2 that area for about two (2) weeks.
3 Q: Okay. And was the Solicitor General
4 the first minister who you had direct contact with about
5 this event?
6 A: Yeah, I think so.
7 Q: And I see that in the first -- first
8 passage, what is attributed to you is the following:
9 "Cannot accept the police version of
10 the incident. There were no guns.
11 Have toured the site and looked at the
12 bus and the car. Have talked to the
13 individuals who were there."
14 Is that the message that -- that you were
15 conveying to the minister?
16 A: Yes, it was.
17 Q: And what specifically were you
18 seeking from the Solicitor General at this call?
19 A: Well, what we -- we were trying to
20 get, as I said, we were trying to get the police to de-
21 escalate the OPP. And we -- we started on the first day
22 to try to get our own constables in place. We were using
23 peacekeepers to be able to do that. We wanted to have
24 those OPP replaced and we wanted to bring in our own
25 peacekeepers, our own police constables rather.

173

1 Q: All right. And just so that I
2 understand, are you drawing a distinction between
3 peacekeepers and Aboriginal constables?
4 A: Yes, I am.
5 Q: And can you just define for me what -
6 - who the peacekeepers are and were and -- and as
7 distinct from the Aboriginal officers?
8 A: The peacekeepers were -- were men who
9 came there to be able to create a buffer between the
10 people that were in the Camp and -- and the police;
11 people -- men who had come there, who had experience in
12 these kinds of situations; men who -- who could deal with
13 -- with both sides and to be able to address the issues
14 in a -- in a serious way. And so they were there.
15 The -- the constables were constables that
16 were part of the Indian policing program and who were --
17 who were authorized under -- under that program to be
18 able to deal with -- with policing.
19 Q: All right. And did you have any role
20 to play with respect to the selection of -- peacekeepers
21 who came to Ipperwash?
22 A: No, I didn't.
23 Q: All right. Did you know who they
24 were?
25 A: Yes, I did.

174

1 Q: And who were they?
2 A: The first ones that I talked to when
3 I got there was -- was Bruce Elijah. And there were a
4 number -- there were a number of individuals that came of
5 Oneida that were there. There were gentlemen from other
6 places as well.
7 Q: All right. And had you had
8 experience with Mr. Bruce Elijah in that role as -- as
9 peacekeeper before?
10 A: Yes, I had.
11 Q: All right. And did you have any
12 concerns about the fact that he was there in that role?
13 A: None whatsoever.
14 Q: And were -- are Aboriginal officers
15 eventually -- did they eventually come to the area?
16 A: Yes, they did.
17 Q: Do you recall when?
18 A: It was down the road a ways. I mean,
19 it wasn't immediate.
20 Q: Okay.
21 A: So, it would -- you know, it might
22 have been four (4) or five (5) days after --
23 Q: All right.
24 A: -- before the police started to de-
25 escalate and then officers came in. I don't know how

175

1 long it was, actually.
2 Q: Fair enough. And there was First
3 Nation constables from other -- from other reserve
4 territories?
5 A: Yes. I think it was the Anishnaabek
6 police who came in.
7 Q: All right. Thank you. And I note
8 that in this conversation it appears that the Minister --
9 the Solicitor General indicates to you at the bottom of
10 the first page, that the Premier had made it clear that
11 he will not attend the meeting until the occupation of
12 the Provincial Park is resolved.
13 Now, do you recall receiving that
14 information from the Solicitor General at this meeting?
15 A: I recall them stating that position
16 about the -- about the situation. And -- and that was
17 the same -- that was the same thing that we had run into
18 with the student demonstrations. It was the same thing
19 that we had run into with Oka.
20 But yet we did do negotiations with
21 Ministers during all those times. They didn't deal
22 directly with the people that were inside the buildings
23 or inside the treatment centre, but we did -- but we did
24 deal with them directly on -- on -- on the same matters
25 in other forums.

176

1 Q: All right. Was it -- did you -- with
2 having had the conversation with the Solicitor General,
3 did you see any further need to have direct conversation
4 or direct intervention by the Premier?
5 A: Yes, because at this stage here, the
6 -- the police are still escalating. There's more --
7 there's more people coming in.
8 Q: And what role, if any, did you think
9 that the Premier could play with respect to the
10 observation that the OPP appeared to be increasing in
11 numbers to you?
12 A: Well, I -- I assumed that the -- the
13 Premier could -- could deal with the -- with the Police
14 Commissioner and have them start to be able to de-
15 escalate.
16 Q: And what was the basis of your
17 assumption?
18 A: My assumption was that if there was
19 given orders to be able to escalate, they could de-
20 escalate.
21 Q: All right. And on the second page of
22 this -- of these notes at the very bottom, there's a
23 notation:
24 "Chiefs asked comments to be given to
25 Premier and second call be made 5:00 to

177

1 5:30 p.m. Minister made no definite
2 commitments."
3 Now, first of all, do you recall whether
4 or not it was asked of the Solicitor General that a
5 further call be made and that your comments be conveyed
6 to the Premier?
7 A: I don't think there was second call.
8 I don't -- I don't remember a second call.
9 Q: All right. But do you recall there
10 being a request for one?
11 A: Yeah, because we had been -- we had
12 been trying to get to the Premier.
13 Q: All right. Fair enough. Was there
14 any -- did you consider this to be a constructive
15 conversation with the Solicitor General?
16 A: No.
17 Q: Why not?
18 A: Because they urged us to -- to allow
19 the SIU to take control of the process. And -- and --
20 and we were -- we were -- we were still in the mode of
21 trying to get the -- the First Nations Constables to
22 replace the OPP and we were talking to the OPP. I mean,
23 we talked to the OPP the first day and the first evening
24 and, you know, we had -- we numerous sessions with them.
25 We talked with the coroner and the OPP.

178

1 And -- and -- and our constant demand was for them to be
2 able to de-escalate and -- and was to be able to -- to
3 have -- have our -- our police brought in to become the
4 buffer and so that any -- any other kinds of action on
5 their part would be -- would be, you know, lessened. And
6 with, you know, I mean the opportunity to be able to do
7 things.
8 Q: I wonder, before we move on into
9 chronology, if we can -- I'd like to review what contact
10 you -- you may have had with the OPP on September the 7th
11 when you arrived at -- at the Ipperwash area.
12 Did you have any contact with anyone from
13 the OPP?
14 A: Not immediately. I got stopped on
15 the road coming in and got searched.
16 Q: All right. Did you eventually have
17 contact with anyone from the OPP?
18 A: I didn't have any contact with
19 anybody from the OPP until late that afternoon.
20 Q: September the 7th?
21 A: Yes.
22 Q: And who did you meet with?
23 A: Early that evening we -- we went to -
24 - I believe we went to the Pine -- the Pineridge Inn or
25 something, it's -- it's just up the road there and --

179

1 Q: Okay.
2 A: -- and we had a meeting with -- I
3 think it was Inspector Cole that was there, there were
4 three (3) or four (4) gentlemen that came in.
5 Q: All right.
6 A: They came into the room. The room
7 was set up in a circle format. A gentleman came in, he
8 was introduced to us as Paul Trivett. He came in -- he
9 brought in a pipe and he sat the pipe in the middle of
10 the room.
11 And then we had -- we had a very strong
12 dialogue.
13 Q: And who initiated this -- this
14 meeting?
15 A: Some of the peacekeepers had already
16 been talking to the OPP about there was need for us to be
17 able to -- to have a dialogue and to be able to -- to see
18 what course of action could be -- could be determined.
19 Q: All right. And can you advise as to
20 what -- what if anything came out of -- of this meeting?
21 A: Very little. I think the -- I think
22 if I recall correctly, what happened was that right from
23 the get-go people started telling -- telling the police
24 that were there that they didn't believe their story,
25 they didn't believe that anybody fired upon them, they

180

1 didn't -- they didn't believe that the actions that they
2 took that night to be able to save lives was -- was an
3 action that was -- was legitimate.
4 And so I mean, it just -- it just kind of
5 broke into a free-for-all there --
6 Q: Right.
7 A: -- and nothing -- nothing came out of
8 it other than it allowed people to be able to vent in the
9 beginning.
10 I guess -- no, I take that back, the only
11 one thing that came out of it -- the one (1) thing that
12 came of it was the offer to be able to bring the coroner
13 to a meeting.
14 Q: All right. Whose offer was that?
15 A: It was the OPP because -- because
16 when they were told that their story was not believed by
17 everyone in the room, they said that -- what they offered
18 to do was to bring in the coroner to be able to provide
19 further evidence.
20 Q: All right. Okay.
21 A: And so the coroner came in the next
22 day.
23 Q: All right. And did you have any
24 further discussions with anyone from the OPP on September
25 the 7th?

181

1 A: None.
2 Q: And during the course of this one
3 meeting, did you convey any request with respect to
4 de-escalating the police presence?
5 A: Yes.
6 Q: And what response did you receive and
7 from whom, if you can recall?
8 A: I don't think we received any
9 responses. The -- everybody went around -- around the
10 room and their say and -- and by the time that was over I
11 think each party was happy to go their own way.
12 Q: All right. About how long was this
13 meeting?
14 A: It might have been an hour and half
15 (1 1/2), two (2) hours. I don't know how long it took.
16 Q: All right. And so moving then to
17 September the 8th, you indicated that the coroner came in
18 that day. Was there a further meeting at which you
19 participated involving the OPP and the coroner?
20 A: Yes. Yes, I did participate in that
21 meeting.
22 Q: All right. And do you recall who was
23 there on behalf of the OPP?
24 A: I don't remember. There were two (2)
25 of them, two (2) members that were there with the

182

1 coroner.
2 Q: And did --
3 A: The coroner felt that he couldn't
4 come in alone.
5 Q: Do you remember the name of the
6 coroner?
7 A: No, I don't.
8 Q: And do you recall approximately --
9 well firstly, where the meeting took place and
10 approximately how long it was?
11 A: I think the meeting took place in the
12 school.
13 Q: At the reserve?
14 A: Because the school was the only -- I
15 don't think -- I think what was happening was the Band
16 office wasn't large enough to accommodate people to go in
17 and so I think the meetings were taking place in the
18 school as I recall.
19 The coroner came in -- came in with two
20 (2) officers. They made a presentation and then the
21 Elders responded to them.
22 Q: All right. And so is this a
23 community meeting at Kettle and Stony Point?
24 A: There were a lot of people there.
25 Q: Okay.

183

1 A: I don't know if it was actually a
2 community meeting or not.
3 Q: All right. And did you have any
4 further contact with the OPP on the 8th?
5 A: I don't recall. I -- I -- I was
6 going back and forth between the -- between the Band
7 offices and -- and the barracks and I was meeting on a
8 continual basis with -- with everybody to try to see
9 where things were at.
10 And I knew that the peacekeepers were
11 trying to be able to sort something out the police and --
12 and trying to get something to work on that -- on that
13 end, so.
14 Q: All right. Do you recall having a
15 telephone conversation with the Attorney General of the
16 province in or around September the 11th, 1995?
17 A: Yeah, I remember talking to Charles
18 Harnick.
19 Q: All right. And perhaps you could
20 look at Tab 17, Inquiry Document number 1004267.
21 A: What tab are you on, please?
22 Q: 17, please.
23 A: 17. Okay.
24 Q: And about half way down under Item
25 "C" it's reported -- it's a document dated September 11,

184

1 1995, Ipperwash Exit Strategy:
2 "Legitimate native leadership to be
3 contacted by AG. Phone call from
4 Minister to Gordon Peters. Messages,
5 sympathy for situation and loss of
6 life. Seek advice on next step, ask
7 for help in contacting Chief Bressette.
8 Express support for a successful
9 resolution of Camp issue. Provide
10 information on land claim process if
11 necessary. No substantive negotiations
12 as long as the Park is occupied.
13 Willing to meet on site meeting later."
14 Now, did you have a telephone conversation
15 with the Attorney General at which these issues were
16 discussed?
17 A: I remember talking to the Attorney
18 General. I can't tell you what issues were involved.
19 Q: Okay.
20 A: But it wasn't a very positive
21 conversation as I recall.
22 Q: And why -- what led you to that
23 impression?
24 A: The notion was always put on the
25 table by the government was -- was that -- was that, you

185

1 know, that the police should handle everything, you know,
2 and -- and there was really no role for them to -- to do
3 anything unless -- unless people -- people left the Park.
4 Q: So, was it your impression that the -
5 - the government's stand, at least as it appeared to you,
6 was that this was a police matter to resolve and not a
7 political matter?
8 A: Well, from day one (1) that was --
9 that was the very message that we got.
10 Q: All right.
11 A: It was a police matter and that there
12 were no other solutions when there -- when there were
13 lots of solutions that were available, you know? I mean
14 -- I mean Harnick starts to talk about himself. He could
15 start talking to other people, you know.
16 They could have set up some other
17 processes, you know. Instead they hid behind the notion
18 that they weren't going to talk to anybody unless --
19 unless the people came out of the Park.
20 Q: Okay. And did you -- do you recall
21 having -- whether or not you had a meeting with Minister
22 Harnick in or around September the 14th, 1995?
23 A: I don't recall.
24
25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

186

1 Q: All right. Do you recall having a
2 meeting with Minister Harnick in or around mid September
3 at all or while you were still at -- at the Camp
4 Ipperwash area?
5 A: No, actually I don't.
6 Q: All right.
7 A: I don't recall a meeting.
8 Q: Perhaps you could look at Tab 5 which
9 is Inquiry Document number 1004017 and it's entitled,
10 "Confidential Chronology of Events," and at page 2
11 there's a notation that September 13, 1995, the Minister
12 responsible for Aboriginal affairs meets with AFN Ontario
13 Regional Chief Gord Peters.
14 Do you recall having a meeting in or
15 around that...
16
17 (BRIEF PAUSE)
18
19 THE WITNESS: Could we take a short
20 recess now?
21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sure -- we -- we could.
22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think
23 we can take -- we were going to take an afternoon recess.
24 Why don't we take a short recess?
25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. We'll take

187

1 a recess right now.
2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Witness
3 could use a break and so could I. We'll take it now.
4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Fair enough.
5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess
7 for fifteen (15) minutes.
8
9 --- Upon recessing at 3:37 p.m.
10 --- Upon resuming at 3:58 p.m.
11
12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
13 resumed. Please be seated.
14
15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA.
16 Q: Perhaps you could return to Tab 5,
17 please and Document Number 1004017. It's entitled,
18 "Confidential Chronology of Events." And I'll just note
19 that this comes from the Government Productions and I
20 believe it's from the Attorney General's office.
21 In any event there's a September 13, 1995
22 entry at page 2, which indicates that there may have been
23 a meeting as between Minister Harnick and yourself. And
24 my question is simply whether you recall there having
25 been any such meeting in or around mid September of 1995

188

1 with Minister Harnick?
2 A: I -- I don't recall this meeting at
3 all. And, you know, with the -- the -- I do recall -- I
4 do recall that evening. I -- I was at home because I
5 remember the Minister of Indian Affairs called me at home
6 to let me know that he was coming the next day with a
7 document and that he was going to release to the public.
8 Advised me that he was going to bring
9 certain individuals with him and so I would have probably
10 -- I would have -- I don't know where I would have fit a
11 meeting in within -- within that time frame because we
12 were going to meet with the Minister of Indian Affairs
13 and he was going to do his public statement.
14 Q: All right. Let me just ask more
15 generally then, do you recall having any other
16 significant meetings with Provincial Ministers or
17 politicians in or around September of 1995; not pinning
18 it down to any day but in or around that time frame?
19 A: I do recall meeting with -- with Mr.
20 Harnick. Mr. Harnick became responsible for -- for
21 Native Affairs, and this is the first -- maybe it's not
22 the first time but previous governments -- the
23 responsibility was held by MNR or it was held by another
24 minister.
25 Now we have all issues that are related to

189

1 -- to First Nations falling under the Attorney General's
2 office. So we've got a switch in policy that's going on
3 as well.
4 Q: All right. And what do you recall
5 about what transpired at the meeting with Mr. Harnick
6 then?
7 A: When I did have meetings with him, I
8 -- I advocated the same thing that -- that they find a
9 political solution to the -- to the Park. Remind him
10 that -- that it wasn't in the best interest of -- of
11 either the First Nations or -- or the general public to
12 reopen the Park unless a solution was found.
13 I also called upon him many times for a --
14 for a public inquiry and to -- and to the entire
15 situation.
16 Q: All right. Do you recall
17 approximately how many meetings you had with him in
18 September?
19 A: It's hard to say. I may have met
20 with him once or maybe twice at that -- we were also
21 dealing with other issues at the same time. So our other
22 agenda items aren't falling off the table. We were still
23 pushing those agenda items, too, as well.
24 Q: By which -- do -- do you mean non-
25 Ipperwash related agenda items?

190

1 A: Yes.
2 Q: All right. And what was -- what was
3 -- what was your reaction to this one (1) or two (2)
4 meetings in terms of Mr. Harnick's participation and
5 response?
6 A: As I recall, he -- until later on he
7 took the position that until -- until people were out of
8 the Park there would be no negotiations. He felt that it
9 was a police matter and that, you know, the SIU had been
10 in, had -- I think we -- by then, when I met with him,
11 the SIU had already -- we had already worked out an
12 agreement for the SIU to be able to come in and do a
13 joint investigation.
14 So I don't think there was -- we didn't --
15 we didn't do anything productive in trying to be able to
16 find a way of being able to deal with Ipperwash at all.
17 Q: Did you have any meetings in
18 September of '95 with Minister Hodgson, who was the
19 Minister of Natural Resources?
20 A: I only recall one (1) meeting with
21 Mr. Hodgson and -- and I don't know when it took place, I
22 know it was in the fall sometime. His message to me was
23 that First Nations should acquiesce to the First Nations
24 or to the Provincial Government's jurisdiction and work
25 out some kind of arrangement from that point on -- on all

191

1 matters.
2 Q: And did you have any meetings with
3 Premier Harris during the course of September 1995?
4 A: I never met with Mr. Harris at all
5 during the next couple years included.
6 Q: All right. Did anyone from the
7 Provincial Government offer to you any proposed political
8 solution to the Ipperwash Park issue?
9 A: No.
10 Q: Okay. Now you indicated that you had
11 some contact with the Federal Government, Minister of
12 Indian Affairs, Ron Irwin. Who initiated communications
13 as between yourself and the Federal Government?
14 A: We would have contacted the Federal
15 Government immediately. Whether -- whether it would have
16 been us or whether it would have been the AFN, somebody
17 would have contacted the Feds immediately and we would
18 have advised the minister that they have a role to play
19 vis-a-vis First Nations and would expect them to be able
20 to uphold their role.
21 Q: Perhaps you would look at Tab 11 of
22 your binder, and it's Inquiry Document Number 1009017,
23 and this appears to be a fax to The Honourable Ron Irwin,
24 Minister, Indian and Northern Affairs, from Gordon B.
25 Peters, Ontario Regional Chief, dated September 8, 1995,

192

1 with a number of carbon copies including to Premier
2 Harris. And attached to that is a letter, a two (2) page
3 letter addressed to The Honourable Ron Irwin, dated
4 September 8, 1995.
5 And is that signature your signature at
6 the end of the letter?
7 A: Yes, it is.
8 Q: Perhaps we can make that the next
9 exhibit, please.
10 THE REGISTRAR: P-297, Your Honour.
11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry, I didn't
12 hear that.
13 THE REGISTRAR: 297.
14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you.
15
16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-297: Document Number 1006430,
17 September 08/95 Multi-fax
18 from Gordon B. Peters,
19 Ontario Regional Chief,
20 Chiefs of Ontario, to the
21 Honourable Ron Irwin,
22 Minister, Indian and Northern
23 Affairs, Re: Ipperwash.
24
25 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:

193

1 Q: All right. And did you cause this
2 letter to be sent to Minister Irwin?
3 A: Yes, I did. And again, it -- and
4 again, it's addressing the federal responsibilities. And
5 -- and part of our -- part of our strategy in trying to
6 get the federal government to -- to get on board in this
7 issue was to accept -- accept responsibility of -- of
8 them dragging their heels over the issue for -- for so
9 long, and especially DND.
10 Q: Perhaps you could advise what your --
11 what your perception of the Federal Government's
12 responsibility with respect to this issue was?
13 A: We always felt that the Federal
14 Government had a responsibility to be able to return the
15 land, to be able to do the environmental cleanup and --
16 and get the lands back into the hands of the peoples.
17 Q: And what lands are you referring to
18 specifically?
19 A: I'm referring to the lands inside the
20 barracks. Also -- but you also have to remember that,
21 you know, in the discussions that -- that go on about any
22 lands related to indigenous people, that the Federal
23 Government, from -- from 18 -- 1867 until 1951, become --
24 become the sole trustee for those lands.
25 And there were many, many transactions

194

1 that took place in that time that disregarded their own
2 policy, that disregarded the treaty relationship, where
3 lands were, in fact, alienated from First Nations.
4 And -- and according to the report of the
5 Royal Commission during that time, the Government of
6 Canada alienated 75 percent of -- of Indian lands. So
7 the Feds had a big role, you know. They had a big role
8 not only in the -- in the barracks but they had a big
9 role in relation to the Park as well.
10 Q: All right. And, indeed, in the third
11 paragraph of your letter you say:
12 "As you know, the Federal Government
13 has been intimately involved in the
14 historic buildup to the tragic events
15 of the last few days and the Ipperwash
16 Base lands were taken from the First
17 Nation in 1942, even though other
18 properties in the area were available
19 for Military purposes."
20 Can you just expand upon what -- in what
21 way you felt that the Federal Government was intimately
22 involved in the -- the build-up in terms of -- and
23 whether you made any connection to the Park in that
24 respect?
25 A: Well, I think there's two (2) parts

195

1 to that, one (1) the lands were to be returned. And so
2 obviously the -- the Feds continued to drag their heels
3 in being able to return land -- lands that they
4 should have returned, you know, after the Second World
5 War --
6 Q: Hmm hmm.
7 A: -- still today have not been
8 returned, you know. And so, I mean, that in itself was a
9 major role to play. Had those -- had that -- had those
10 lands been returned we wouldn't have had this situation
11 take place. As well, in relation to -- in relation to
12 other lands that -- that become alienated the Federal
13 Government has a role in those too, as well, because in -
14 - in -- in violation of their own processes where --
15 where -- that are undertaken.
16 In many circumstances where -- where --
17 where lands were alienated the Federal Government had a
18 role in that, you know? And -- and I -- I strongly
19 believe that the Feds should be at the table anytime
20 we're dealing with those matters.
21 Q: All right. Whether they're federally
22 owned lands or controlled lands or provincially owned or
23 controlled lands?
24 A: Well, any time the -- any time the
25 Federal Government wants to deal with -- well, I should

196

1 say anytime the federal government doesn't want to deal
2 with an issue, they say, Well, that's provincial
3 jurisdiction.
4 Any time the province doesn't want to deal
5 with us, they say that's federal jurisdiction and nobody
6 ends up dealing with it. And so mechanisms that we
7 talked about earlier to -- to resolve some of these
8 things like the -- the -- the Indian Claims Commission
9 for example, that -- that was virtually -- well, it was,
10 it was killed by the -- by the -- by the Conservative
11 government as another vehicle for resolving issues. It
12 was eliminated.
13 Q: All right. And in the last paragraph
14 of your letter, you say:
15 "Some of the people involved in the
16 Base affair have been prompted to
17 occupy the adjacent Provincial Park.
18 The Elders have said that sacred burial
19 grounds are located in the Park. The
20 advice should be -- this advice should
21 be relied upon as opposed to the dated
22 1972 archeological research of the
23 province. It is, of course, the recent
24 Park occupation that led to the assault
25 by the OPP officers."

197

1 What was the basis of your information
2 that some of the people involved in the Base affair have
3 been prompted to occupy the adjacent Provincial Park?
4 A: Maybe it's the use of the word,
5 "prompted." You know, it's just a word that I used in
6 the context of the sentence, but I think -- I think when
7 they talked about the return of lands they were talking
8 about return of all lands that -- that they were dealing
9 with.
10 And -- and that's a little corner on the
11 end of the -- on the end of the -- on the end of those
12 lands that were taken by the -- by the Federal
13 Government.
14 And so I'm only -- I'm only suggesting
15 here that -- that because those lands are not up for
16 discussion in the process, then -- then somehow or other
17 there has to be movement to be able to try to get those
18 lands back as well.
19 Q: All right. And did you receive a
20 response to your letter requesting the involvement of the
21 Federal Government?
22 A: I would imagine I did. I know I got
23 a telephone call.
24 Q: And can you recall, did you receive
25 the call close -- close to the time that you sent your

198

1 letter of September 8th?
2 A: I'm not sure, I couldn't tell you
3 that for sure. I mean, you know, we had in this -- in
4 this whole area between the Park and the -- and the
5 community, all cellular -- all cellular services was --
6 was not operating at the time, you know?
7 Q: Hmm hmm.
8 A: So we were going outside making
9 calls, we were taking calls, we were doing all kinds of
10 things at that -- at that point in time. So, I don't
11 know when he responded to me. I know that he -- I know I
12 did have a conversation with him prior to him coming to -
13 - to Kettle Point.
14 Q: All right. And perhaps -- I believe
15 you referred to that conversation a few minutes ago --
16 A: Hmm hmm.
17 Q: -- perhaps you could tell me again
18 what the contents of that conversation was with Ron
19 Irwin?
20 A: The context of the conversation was
21 that he was going to come to Kettle Point the next day,
22 that he had a document indicating that there were burial
23 grounds within the Park and that from the study that was
24 taken, some date, I don't remember the date that he said,
25 and that he was going to come and that he was going to

199

1 produce that document.
2 Q: All right. Did he tell you why he
3 was going to produce that document?
4 A: No, he never.
5 Q: All right. And what was your
6 reaction to his advice?
7 A: Well, I welcomed him to come because
8 I thought that he should have been there long time before
9 and that he -- that he should have been in the area, that
10 he should have come to be able to assess the situation
11 before this time.
12 And he advised that he was bringing
13 certain individuals and I -- I advised him not to.
14 Q: What -- what individuals?
15 A: He advised that he was going to bring
16 some various community leaders from other regions. I
17 advised him not to and then I called those individuals
18 directly --
19 Q: All right.
20 A: -- and advised them not to come.
21 Q: And what -- what was the basis for
22 your -- your opinion?
23 A: I didn't want him to be -- to be
24 shown in the light of -- of the process that he was going
25 to -- to deliver. Because what he was going to do the

200

1 next day wasn't in our best interests, you know, we
2 already knew the burial grounds were there, you know.
3 It was in the best interest of the Federal
4 Government who was in a kind of a back and forth battle
5 with the Provincial Government. They were trying to play
6 one up on each other. And that's all I seen it as.
7 Q: All right. And did you raise with
8 the Minister what else, if anything, he was going to do
9 to assist with the resolution of this dispute?
10 A: Yes, I did.
11 Q: What was his response?
12 A: His response was that the -- the
13 claim should be immediately put into the claims process.
14 Q: Which claims process?
15 A: The specific claims process I think
16 he said.
17 Q: Was that with respect to the
18 Provincial Park?
19 A: That was in respect to lands in that
20 area, yes.
21 Q: All right.
22 A: And that he would -- it was his
23 recommendation that they should follow any normal land
24 claim procedure.
25 Q: And what was your response to that?

201

1 A: I told him -- I told him that was not
2 -- not the case. I said you -- you have a situation now
3 where someone has died. To go back into that process
4 which doesn't work for anybody would be another huge
5 mistake.
6 That they needed to be able to create a
7 political process in order for them to be able to deal
8 with these lands. And we suggested to the Federal
9 Government that they assume these lands from the
10 Province, that they -- they have to buy them back.
11 Q: Now, did Minister Irwin come to the
12 Ipperwash area as he indicated he would?
13 A: He came to Kettle Point.
14 Q: All right. And do you recall when
15 approximately that was?
16 A: No. I don't recall when he actually
17 came to deliver the notice.
18 Q: Perhaps I can refer you to Tab 22,
19 Inquiry Document Number 1003159. Now this is an article
20 from the London Free Press dated September 14, 1995
21 entitled, "Ipperwash Deal Nearer Barricades Come Down."
22 And it's noted on the first column under, "Should Know
23 Today," second paragraph.
24 "Gord Peters, Ontario Regional Chief,
25 speaking on behalf of the protesters

202

1 said part of the proposal would allow
2 investigators from the province's
3 special investigation unit which
4 investigates all police shootings, to
5 conduct a joint investigation with
6 Natives into the death of Anthony
7 Dudley George.
8 Observers should also be allowed in the
9 Camp, on the Camp and into the area
10 where the shooting took place outside
11 the Provincial Park."
12 This also refers to, if you can see by the
13 picture, the meeting of Ron -- with Ron Irwin and MP
14 Elijah Harper which apparently occurred on September the
15 13th, 1995; does that sound about right to you?
16 A: Yes, it does. We were in -- we were
17 in -- in constant negotiations with the -- with the SIU
18 and with the OPP about trying to get a joint process
19 underway, a joint investigation.
20 Q: Hmm hmm.
21 A: And we said once we got the joint
22 investigation and we are able to move ahead with that,
23 then those barricades would come down.
24 Q: All right. And just before we move
25 on to that -- those discussions, did you have an

203

1 opportunity to meet with Minister Irwin either on the
2 13th of September '95 or at any other time with respect
3 to the Ipperwash issues?
4 A: That was the purpose that he was
5 there.
6 Q: And did you -- and you met with him?
7 A: Not alone I never.
8 Q: Okay. But --
9 A: There was a public forum that was --
10 that was created and I don't know if it was that same
11 afternoon or it was the following day but there was a
12 forum and a discussion about how to be able to deal with
13 those lands.
14 Q: All right. And what was the
15 Minister's -- well, first of all, what proposal were put
16 to him, if any, by you or -- or others on your behalf?
17 A: I didn't -- I didn't intervene in the
18 discussions until near the end, but what he proposed was
19 to go into the same kinds of claims process.
20 Q: Okay.
21 A: Near the end of the day I did
22 intervene and I said that that wasn't a -- that wouldn't
23 work, you know, the process hasn't worked before and --
24 and this needed a different kind of solution.
25 Q: Okay

204

1 A: And I don't remember how we finished
2 the day, you know, and...
3 Q: Were there any further discussions
4 with Ron Irwin with respect to Camp Ipperwash and
5 Ipperwash Provincial Park?
6 A: Well, we tried to get him to come
7 into the -- into the Army barracks but he wouldn't go, he
8 said that he didn't feel -- he didn't feel comfortable
9 going in there.
10 And we gave him our assurances that it was
11 fine and, you know, we would take him through, he would
12 see the site, he would see the -- he would see the buses
13 and the vehicles himself, he would see the area where the
14 -- where the shooting took place, but he declined.
15 Q: All right. And was that the end of
16 your discussions with the Minister concerning these
17 matters?
18 A: Yes, it was.
19 Q: All right. I'd like to make the
20 article the next exhibit, please.
21 THE REGISTRAR: P-298.
22
23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-298: Document Number 1003159,
24 September 14/95 London Free
25 Press article "Ipperwash Deal

205

1 Nearer, Barricades Come
2 Down."
3
4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
5 Q: Moving on to a different area now,
6 Mr. Peters, did you play any role in the establishment
7 and operation of the First Nations' investigation team
8 that was established in the aftermath of the shooting?
9 A: Yes, I did.
10 Q: And can you tell me what role you
11 played in that?
12 A: We were -- we were having ongoing
13 discussions with the OPP in -- in about how the
14 investigation was going to take place and the terms and
15 conditions. We worked on being able to develop what we
16 thought were the best possible scenarios that we could
17 achieve.
18 And we agreed that Chico Ralf (phonetic)
19 should be brought in to be able to assist in the process
20 and, at the end of the day, other individuals who -- who
21 would be able to assist in that area.
22 Q: And were you a spokesperson for the
23 team on the --
24 A: I don't if I was ever a spokesperson
25 for anybody but -- but I did deal with a lot of media

206

1 during the time and -- and I was asked by -- by people to
2 deliver messages, but I -- I don't think I would be
3 categorized as a spokesperson --
4 Q: All right.
5 A: -- even though the media says that in
6 -- several times.
7 Q: Fair enough. Okay. And did you play
8 a role in the development of a joint police First Nation
9 investigation into the shooting and the events of
10 September the 6th, '95?
11 A: No, I didn't, just in the development
12 of the -- of the terms and conditions for -- for the
13 joint process.
14 Q: All right. And do you recall what
15 the purpose of setting up a joint effort was?
16 A: We wanted to be able to ensure that
17 factual information that was being brought out wouldn't
18 be lost in the process, that we would have an opportunity
19 to be able to identify all of the issues that needed to
20 be identified from -- from the perspective of the people
21 who were in the Park that evening.
22 They needed to -- they needed to feel
23 comfortable that they had somebody to be able to talk to
24 and somebody to be able to express their views to, and
25 they wanted somebody to come in that -- that knew

207

1 something about the policing process.
2 Q: Hmm hmm. And over what period of
3 time did the discussion leading to an understanding or a
4 protocol, if you will, for the joint investigation, over
5 what time period did that take place?
6 A: It started on day one (1).
7 Q: Day one (1) --
8 A: It started -- it started right after
9 in our discussions with the police.
10 Q: Okay.
11 A: We said that we didn't -- we didn't
12 trust the SIU to be able to come in and to be able to --
13 to do its work. We cited the track record of the -- of
14 the unit itself and -- and firmly believed that we needed
15 to have a role in -- in the undertaking.
16 Q: All right. And I wonder if you'd go
17 to Tab 29, Inquiry Document 1000797. It's an article
18 dated September 16, 1995 by the Sarnia Observer entitled,
19 "Natives OPP Near Deal." And is this about the time
20 period that -- that in fact negotiations with respect to
21 how the joint investigation would look -- or would look
22 like took place?
23 A: Yeah. We were -- we were actually
24 very close a couple of times.
25 Q: Okay.

208

1 A: Meaning something established and --
2 and each time another issue would be raised by the OPP.
3 We had vandalism issues that were raised about cottages
4 being vandalized and everything. And so we took a -- a
5 video camera and we went through the cottages and -- and
6 we video taped things to make sure that -- that there was
7 nothing happening in those areas.
8 Q: All right. And just before we get to
9 the video taping, the joint arrangement that was
10 arranged, was that between the First Nations
11 investigations team and the OPP?
12 A: Yes, it was.
13 Q: And was there any similar arrangement
14 made with the SIU?
15 A: That was the terms and conditions for
16 the SIU to come in. It was -- it was negotiated with the
17 police but it was -- but it was the terms of -- of
18 conditions for the operation with the SIU.
19 Q: All right. And was --
20 A: The SIU also came into the process
21 and -- and did some of their own negotiations, as I
22 recall.
23 Q: All right. All right. And was --
24 was there an agreement ultimately reached which was
25 reduced to writing with respect to the terms of a joint

209

1 investigation?
2 A: Yes, there was.
3 Q: And would you kindly go to Tab 38?
4 This is Exhibit P-218 but also it's Inquiry Document
5 Number 6000335. It's entitled, "Three Day Joint
6 Investigation Relating To The Death Of Anthony Dudley
7 George and Related Incidents."
8 And you'll see on the third page in,
9 there's a document entitled, "Memorandum Of Understanding
10 Between The First Nations People At Stoney Point and the
11 Ontario Provincial Police On Conditions For Conducting a
12 Joint Identification Investigation Of The Physical Site
13 and Circumstances Relating To The Death Of Anthony Dudley
14 George and Related Incidents."
15 And it's a three (3) page document and it
16 appears to be signed by members of the First Nations and
17 the Ontario Provincial Police on September the 17, 1995.
18 Is that the memorandum of understanding that was reached?
19 A: Yeah, it looks like it.
20 Q: All right. Now did you -- did -- did
21 an investigation ensue as a result?
22 A: Barricades came down.
23 Q: Yes.
24 A: And the investigation took place.
25 Q: All right. And do you know how long

210

1 it lasted?
2 A: I don't know. It says three (3) days
3 but I -- I couldn't tell you for sure how long it lasted.
4 Q: All right. Did you participate in
5 any part of the investigation?
6 A: No, I did not.
7 Q: All right. Were you present during a
8 tour of certain cottages on the beachfront adjacent to
9 the Park which was video taped and at which Bruce Elijah
10 was also in attendance?
11 A: Yes I -- yes, I did.
12 Q: All right. And do you recall, was
13 that part of an investigation as well?
14 A: No. It was an issue that got raised
15 and the cottagers were demanding that the -- that the OPP
16 go in and remove people from the Park because their
17 cottages were being vandalized. There was -- there was a
18 lot of accusations that were going on.
19 Q: All right.
20 A: So in our discussions the police
21 raised the issue and so we went out and we video taped
22 everything that we thought was necessary to be able to do
23 to demonstrate that nobody was vandalizing buildings.
24 What we found was one door that had been -- that had been
25 unhinged.

211

1 Q: All right. And was your entry into
2 the cottages a result of discussions you had with the
3 OPP?
4 A: It was not a result of -- of
5 discussions, it was a result of the fact that they were
6 trying to find ways of not to have a discussion with us.
7 Q: All right.
8 A: And so it was an issue that was
9 raised because they felt strongly that, you know, that
10 our officers and -- couldn't contain anybody from being
11 able to do those kinds of things.
12 Q: All right.
13 A: And so when we were doing the
14 negotiations they -- it was an obstacle to be able to be
15 overcome.
16 Q: All right. And did you show this --
17 to your knowledge was this tape shown to the OPP during
18 the course of the negotiations?
19 A: No, I just -- I think we told them
20 that we had done it and we had the tape, it was
21 available.
22 Q: All right. Fair enough.
23 A: And this is the damage that was done.
24 Q: And just for the record, this tape
25 has been entered into evidence as Exhibit P-277.

212

1 A: I think we also -- I think we
2 reported to -- I think we sent something or we did
3 something with -- with members from the -- from the --
4 the local area, Bosanquet group that had formed, I think
5 with their council and stuff. I -- I believe -- I -- I
6 remember we went over there.
7 Q: This was a community meeting, a
8 residents meeting?
9 A: Yeah, it was a community meeting that
10 was going on.
11 Q: Okay.
12 A: Because they were pressuring the
13 police to be able to come in and -- and to remove people
14 from the Park because of a --
15 Q: All right. And did you -- did you
16 attend at that meeting?
17 A: I -- I think I did.
18 Q: All right.
19 A: I can't be a 100 percent sure. I
20 know we went over there.
21 Q: And do you recall what -- what
22 transpired, then, at the meeting with these residents?
23 A: I don't know who we even talked to --
24 Q: All right.
25 A: -- you know, but I know they were the

213

1 driving force behind the -- the whole issue of the
2 vandalism.
3 Q: Okay. And what was the purpose of
4 attending at this meeting, then?
5 A: To let them know that -- that our
6 security was in place and that cottages were secure.
7 Q: All right. And when you say that,
8 "cottages were secure," do you -- was there any barrier
9 to the residents returning to the cottages during this
10 period of time in September of '95?
11 A: No, there wasn't. There wasn't any
12 barriers. The only barriers that we had were the media
13 and there were constant media going out, you know, that
14 this issue wasn't resolved yet, that the barracks were
15 still up, that, you know, there will still flash points,
16 you know.
17 And, in fact -- and, in fact, that once
18 people were assured that the OPP weren't going to come in
19 again, and the negotiations started and the peacekeepers
20 were there, everything was under control.
21 Q: All right.
22 A: The monitoring was done. Police by
23 the -- by the constables on the road and on the road
24 itself that stretched by -- in front of the Base and
25 around down towards the cottages.

214

1 Q: And approximately what time -- by
2 what date was everything under control in -- in this
3 respect with the barricades down and people being allowed
4 to come back into the cottages if they chose?
5 A: I think the barricades came down a
6 couple of days after -- after Irwin came.
7 Q: Okay.
8 A: And I think everything changed after
9 Irwin tabled his document that said that there were
10 definitely burial grounds within the Park because then
11 nobody had an argument with the process. You know, I
12 mean, all those arguments were deflated then and so --
13 Q: Okay.
14 A: -- once it was clear that -- that the
15 burial grounds were there, then it became -- it became a
16 different process and -- and there was -- there was a
17 process of police starting to be able to move out.
18 One (1) of the things that -- one (1) of
19 the things that was good for us was that Chico, being in
20 the police for so long, was that he was able to identify
21 where people came from, what regions they came from and -
22 - and to able to demonstrate that people were coming from
23 -- from quite a few areas within Ontario. And so when
24 they weren't there, we knew when they left.
25 Q: Okay. Do you recall having

215

1 discussions with an individual from the government named
2 Larry Taman in September of 1995?
3 A: I remember Larry Taman.
4 Q: Do you recall who he was at the time?
5 A: I think he was the Assistant Deputy
6 Minister at ONAS.
7 Q: All right. And I wonder if -- can
8 you recall what the nature of your interactions with Mr.
9 Taman was?
10 A: No, I don't.
11 Q: Would you go to Tab 26, Inquiry
12 Document Number 1001864, and you'll see that this is a
13 memorandum to Larry Taman from Dana Venner, it's an
14 internal government document and it's dated September 15,
15 1995, reflecting discussions with Chief Peters. And the
16 note is:
17 "Please, attached, a draft letter that
18 I am considering sending to Chief
19 Peters. I'm quite concerned that Chief
20 Peters appears to be under a
21 misapprehension with respect to the
22 role of the SIU. In particular, I'm
23 concerned that he believes that any
24 agreement he signs with the OPP with
25 respect to their investigation will

216

1 automatically bind the SIU."
2 Does that refresh your memory at all about
3 what discussions you may have had?
4 A: I remember having those discussions.
5 I don't remember if it was with Taman or not.
6 Q: Okay.
7 A: But -- but we had those discussions
8 about -- about the role of the SIU and -- and its
9 relation to the police. And we knew very clearly that
10 the SIU was there to investigate the police action.
11 Q: All right.
12 A: You know, I mean there was no
13 confusion in our mind about anybody binding anybody.
14 Q: All right. And if you'd look at the
15 next tab, Tab 27, this is the draft letter, Inquiry
16 Document Number 1001867, the draft letter referred to in
17 the prior memo.
18 And I'm just wondering -- you might take a
19 minute to look at it, but -- did you ever receive a final
20 version of this letter or a letter from Dana Venner,
21 Acting Director, outlining these issues concerning the
22 OPP versus the SIU's respective roles?
23 A: No.
24 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, leaving
25 aside the issues relating to the Park winterization,

217

1 which I'll get to in a moment, do you recall any other
2 significant political meetings or discussions with
3 provincial politicians or civil servants which we have
4 not yet reviewed concerning the -- the occupation of the
5 Park?
6 A: No. I -- I think after -- after
7 September, the evening of September 6th, I think the only
8 person that we spoke with -- that I spoke with I -- I
9 would say later on, a week after that, from then on, I
10 think the only person I ever spoke to about -- about
11 Ipperwash was -- was the Attorney General.
12 Q: All right. And we've reviewed those
13 discussions?
14 A: Yes. And those discussions went on
15 through the winter.
16 Q: Okay. And what were the tenor of the
17 discussions with the Attorney General that went on
18 through the winter?
19 A: The notion that the Ontario
20 Government was going to reopen the Park in the spring.
21 Q: And what was your reaction to that
22 notion?
23 A: I thought it was foolish for him to
24 be able to say that publicly.
25 Q: And did you give him that advice?

218

1 A: Absolutely.
2 Q: What was his reaction?
3 A: He told me that the Provincial
4 Government had the authority to be able to do that.
5 Q: Okay. Why did you think that it was
6 perhaps an imprudent suggestion?
7 A: Because I didn't think that anything
8 had been done of any significance to that date that would
9 allow people to be able to say, Let's leave the issue
10 alone, let's walk away, or, Has it been resolved in any
11 way. There was no inquiry, there was nothing that had
12 happened to that date, there was no commitment on our
13 part to be able to resolve anything. So the issue in my
14 mind was still fresh.
15 Q: Did you have any concerns about what
16 might happen if the government proceeded to reopen the
17 Park in the following spring?
18 A: Yes. I think I said to him that I --
19 I feared that if he -- if he reopened the Park, if they
20 reopened the Park, well, they would be involved in a
21 confrontation again.
22 Q: All right. And do you recall what
23 his response to that was?
24 A: No, I don't.
25 Q: All right. And did you have any

219

1 other discussions or at least did you discuss any other
2 issues with the Attorney General relative to the
3 Ipperwash issues throughout -- over the course of the
4 balance of '95 and '96?
5 A: None other -- none other than I was
6 again just repeating to him again that he needed to find
7 a political solution to this.
8 Q: All right. Were you aware of any
9 issues arising in the late -- late 1995 concerning the
10 need to winterize the Park?
11 A: Yes, I was.
12 Q: And were you active in that issue as
13 well?
14 A: No, I wasn't active in it but I was -
15 - I was notified of it on a regular basis.
16 Q: And do you know why it was that you
17 were notified about it?
18 A: It was part of the agreement that we
19 struck with the -- with the OPP.
20 Q: All right. Perhaps you would go to
21 Tab 43 which is Inquiry Document Number 1010176. And
22 it's a letter dated November 29, 1995 to the Honourable
23 Chris Hodgson who was then the Minister of Natural
24 Resources and it appears to be from yourself.
25 Is that your signature on the second page?

220

1 A: Yes, it is.
2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to make
3 that the next exhibit please.
4 THE REGISTRAR: P-299.
5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
6
7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-299: Document Number 1010176,
8 November 29/95 letter to
9 Honourable Chris Hodgson,
10 Minister of Natural Resources
11 from Gord Peters, Ontario
12 Regional Chief, Chiefs of
13 Ontario, Re: Ipperwash
14 Provincial Park.
15
16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
17 Q: And what was the -- the purpose of
18 this letter?
19 A: I had been informed by Bruce Elijah
20 that during the course of winterizing the -- the pump
21 house that MNR was trying to bring additional personnel
22 into the area and they had been doing so for a while.
23 I didn't write the letter -- I didn't
24 write the letter until a short time after I -- I waited
25 for them to try to deal with the issue. And when they

221

1 reported to me that -- that they were unable to -- unable
2 to get MNR to comply with the terms of the agreement, I
3 then wrote to -- to Hodgson.
4 Q: All right. And did -- does this
5 letter adequately set -- or accurately list out your
6 concerns?
7 A: Yes, it does.
8 Q: Did you receive a response to this
9 letter?
10 A: Probably, we were always playing tic
11 tac toe. Letters would go back and forth on a fairly
12 regular basis.
13 Q: All right. Do you know whether or
14 not this -- this issue was ultimately resolved?
15 A: It was resolved and I know that I --
16 I did get a -- I got a call from -- I got a call from
17 somebody within government and I don't remember who it
18 was. It might have came out of ONAS.
19 And that was -- I was informed that --
20 that the winterization was going ahead and according to
21 the terms that they had agreed to -- that the police had
22 agreed to.
23 Q: All right. And if you'd go to Tab 52
24 now please. Inquiry Document Number 1009028. This is a
25 letter dated December 8th, 1995 addressed to yourself.

222

1 And it indicates that the original is
2 signed by the Honourable Chris Hodgson referencing your
3 letter of November 29th, 1995 and advising that the
4 winterization of the Park had been carried out and
5 completed on December 3rd, 1995. Do you recall receiving
6 this letter?
7 A: Yes, I do.
8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to make
9 that the next exhibit please.
10 THE REGISTRAR: P-300.
11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
12
13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-300: Document Number 1009028,
14 December 8/95 letter to Chief
15 Gord Peters, Ontario Regional
16 Chief from Honourable Chris
17 Hodgson, Minister of Natural
18 Resources and Northern
19 Development and Mines, Re:
20 Ipperwash Provincial Park.
21
22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA.
23 Q: Now did you continue to act in a
24 political capacity in relation to the Ipperwash issues
25 going into 1996?

223

1 A: I did. Yes, when the George Family
2 was requesting an inquiry, I did participate with them on
3 a number of issues. Trying to raise funds for that,
4 trying to make public aware of what was still going on
5 which had not been resolved.
6 Q: All right. And were you also playing
7 a role with respect to keeping this matter, if you will,
8 on the agenda of the Provincial Government?
9 A: Yes, I was. As I said previously
10 that my concern was that -- that if no action was taken
11 throughout the winter that the Park would be -- attempted
12 to be reopen in the spring.
13 Q: All right. And if you'd look at Tab
14 55 of your brief Inquiry Document Number 101-2179. Now
15 this is -- it looks like an internal memorandum, the
16 Ontario Native Affairs Secretariat dated January 23,
17 1996.
18 And there's a reference in the first
19 paragraph that you have met with Andromache Karakatsanis
20 and inquired about the status of matters of Ipperwash
21 such as the investigation into the alleged burial ground.
22 And are these the types of things and is
23 this representative of the type of actions that you were
24 continuing to take?
25 A: Yes, it is.

1 see that this again seems to be preparing the Minister
2 for questions with respect to the decision to open the
3 Park and the positions that he should take.
4 And is that reflecting of in fact the
5 positions that he did take with you?
6 A: It is reflective of the positions I
7 took?
8 Q: That he took with you. In other
9 words, that the government -- that the decision regarding
10 the Park opening was the MNR's decision and that there
11 was an intention to open the Park?
12 A: Yes. I mean, why -- and you have to
13 know why I'm talking to the Attorney General at the time,
14 because he -- he is the cabinet minister responsible for
15 these areas.
16 Q: Yes.
17 A: And if I can't -- if I can't have him
18 and get a meeting with -- with the MNR, it's the
19 responsibility of that minister to be able to arrange
20 those types of meetings.
21 Q: Because of his position as being
22 responsible for Native Affairs?
23 A: Yeah.
24 Q: All right. Fair enough. And did you
25 continue to play a role with respect to ongoing

226

1 discussions with the OPP and members from Stoney Point
2 and the Kettle and Stony Point Band in 1996?
3 A: I don't recall that. I mean, our --
4 my focus changed in the latter part of '95 and early '96
5 when the Ontario government, the Conservative Government
6 halted construction of Casinorama (phonetic) and
7 unilaterally announced that they were taking 20 percent
8 of the gross of the casino.
9 Q: All right. Is it fair to say then
10 that your political involvement in the Ipperwash related
11 issues began to become less in 1996?
12 A: It became less but I -- I was still
13 supporting the -- the request for an inquiry. And so I
14 knew that the George family was doing -- doing a lot of
15 work in that area. And so, where possible I could
16 support them, I did.
17 Q: Okay.
18 A: And -- and, also, I was still
19 addressing media because those issues were still arising
20 from time to time.
21 Q: Okay. I wonder if you'd go next to
22 Tab 57, Inquiry Document Number 2000330, it's entitled,
23 "First Draft, Kettle Point Police Service Special
24 Meeting," dated February 10, 1996.
25 You'll see that there are a number of

227

1 individuals in attendance, including yourself. And this
2 appears, if you look at the fourth page in, at the
3 bottom, there's a reference to you to the extent that:
4 "The Park won't open in the spring and
5 the Park is clear. Ask Chris Coles if
6 the Park was clear and asked him to
7 address it. Coles, Commissioner can
8 address those things. One (1) letter
9 to the Attorney General, Charles
10 Harnick, and one (1) letter to the
11 Minister of Natural Resources, Chris
12 Hodgson. As far as the OPP is
13 concerned, the Park is not occupied
14 except for person looking after the
15 water station."
16 And do you recall having then some
17 involvement at this meeting at which these issues were
18 raised?
19
20 (BRIEF PAUSE)
21
22 A: I can't tell you that I -- that I
23 remember.
24 Q: Okay, fair enough. Thank you. All
25 right.

228

1 A: I did -- I know I did attend meetings
2 and that I -- I was requested to attend meetings
3 sometimes by -- by Bruce Elijah, sometimes through Miles
4 Bressette, different people would ask me to make sure
5 that I would attend the meeting.
6 Q: And --
7 A: I can't tell you what they --
8 Q: That's fair enough. At some point in
9 time did your involvement in -- in your official capacity
10 as the Ontario Regional Chief end, with respect to the
11 Ipperwash matter?
12 A: Formally in relation to any kind of -
13 - of development within -- within the two (2)
14 communities? I suppose. I mean as far as -- I suppose
15 it just waned out, you know, and that's probably the best
16 way to describe it.
17 Q: And approximately when -- when did
18 that happen?
19 A: As I said, in early '96 we were
20 dealing with -- with Casinorama and so there were a lot
21 of issues that we had that were ongoing at the time and -
22 - and my only role would have been in the supportive
23 role, vis-a-vis the -- the Inquiry.
24 Q: All right. Thank you, Mr. Peters,
25 those conclude my questions and perhaps we will take a --