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Billy Joel's MOTHER was teaching in Juliard (according to wikipedia anyways and I think I've read it elsewhere).

But Billy can read music.

Originally Posted By: eweiss

Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude

When you are a child you speak and think as a child thinks...that's a child's reality. With education and life's experience your inner world and outer world bloom to be so much more. We participate in both worlds. One is public and one is private.

Nice quote. Here's something more relevant. What does a child do first? Speak his/her native language or pick up a pencil and start writing the alphabet? As in language, so in music.

Same thing with any kid. They will whistle, hum, dance, whatever a tune. Then they may find their way on a piano, where they might pick up a tune they love. And then, exactly like in any language, if they start lessons they'll start reading and writting.

I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. I am a classical teacher, but I include ear training, improvisation and composition in each lesson (not all three at the same lesson, though!). A good classical pianist needs those skills to be able to interpret the works of the masters and to help develop the next generation of them!

I start these things at the very first lesson. Students must learn to read, but they must also learn to listen and create.

I'm sorry to drag this dull debate on and draw further atterntion to the W***** of Oz, and his irksome attention seeking, but Wombat Poirot has had a few idle moments on his hands and would like to question how our irritating little troll is so familiar with the life and times of BJones?Our former friend BJ last posted on 19 May, 2009 01:58 AM in a thread "What do you think the greats would do...". Like many of the threads "that funny old cat" BJ was involved in, the Moderators didn't find his posts quite as hilarious as our little Okker Wizard does and it got locked. Poor old BJ was never seen again (I wonder if he suffered the same fate as the recently much lamented SV, because old Jonsie boy's name no longer appears in the user list).The old sage of Cornwall has smelt a hint something brown and furry in that the W****r of Oz is so familiar with our much missed Mr Jones when the former first registered on 13 August, 2009 and yet the latter last posted on 19 May, 2009. I think that the board's other great sage from Down Under (step forward please Sir Currawong)has struck bullseye with his hammer and hit the nail on the head when he noticed more than a passing resemblance between the bothersome wizard and his hero.....perhaps little Wizard you'd care to join your alter ego and disappear back into the cyberspace from whence you came?

The old sage of Cornwall has smelt a hint something brown and furry in that the W****r of Oz is so familiar with our much missed Mr Jones when the former first registered on 13 August, 2009 and yet the latter last posted on 19 May, 2009.

Wow, this discussion has been massive - I've only just stumbled across the conversation....

To the original question of how you can create the conditions under which your daughter develops excellent sight reading skills (to match her impressive rote learning skills) I would say two things:

1. Have her learn one new piece at her performing level every single week. Maybe two. Or three. The more music she learns the less efficient it is for her to rely on rote learning. Practicing sight reading at this stage of her learning is boring, and boring does not equal engagement with the learning activity.....

2. Chill out about her sight reading skills for now. Maybe she is so fascinated by the sound of a piece, and by the techniques needed to execute a performance of a piece that her brain simply has no interest in the reading side of things. If she learns a new piece [at her performance level] every week she will certainly become a great sight reader ultimately.

Wow, this discussion has been massive - I've only just stumbled across the conversation....

To the original question of how you can create the conditions under which your daughter develops excellent sight reading skills (to match her impressive rote learning skills) I would say two things:

1. Have her learn one new piece at her performing level every single week. Maybe two. Or three. The more music she learns the less efficient it is for her to rely on rote learning. Practicing sight reading at this stage of her learning is boring, and boring does not equal engagement with the learning activity.....

2. Chill out about her sight reading skills for now. Maybe she is so fascinated by the sound of a piece, and by the techniques needed to execute a performance of a piece that her brain simply has no interest in the reading side of things. If she learns a new piece [at her performance level] every week she will certainly become a great sight reader ultimately.

Hi Elissa,

That is great advice. I was a little worried at first because I had "assumed" that all students should be sight-reading at their playing level.

our much missed Mr Jones when the former first registered on 13 August, 2009 and yet the latter last posted on 19 May, 2009. I think that the board's other great sage from Down Under (step forward please Sir Currawong)has struck bullseye with his hammer and hit the nail on the head when he noticed more than a passing resemblance between the bothersome wizard and his hero.....perhaps little Wizard you'd care to join your alter ego and disappear back into the cyberspace from whence you came?

hey Wombat you think I'm BJones? And you actually did the research? Man I must be really getting on your nerves.Perhaps you'd like to dance Marquis of Queensbury style at Piccadilly Circus. Or can you not afford to take the train there?

For the record, I am NOT BJones, I don't even live in the same country as he does. But we can dance all night long bro.

1. I agree with Morodiene that reading intervals is very important! Your daughter should first learn to recognize steps (is it going up or down?), and then skips of a 3rd, and then larger skips. She should learn to recognize immediately how each interval looks.

2. Sometimes I like to use note-reading flashcards with my students. There are some with one note on each, and some with intervals. I think both are useful for some students. Definitely doesn't hurt!

3. Practicing sight-reading is also a good thing. I have a few of my students practicing reading simple, brand new pieces each day. I just give them books to borrow (it is important that these pieces are at a lower level then what the student might normally play!) The idea here is not to work on perfecting the piece, but to play it through, and then let it go. There are good habits to strive for also - such as scanning through the music before starting, and going slowly.

4. As your daughter continues lessons and grows older, it would be good for her to learn some music theory, too. When I sight read music, I am not reading individual notes at a rapid speed, but rather am recognizing intervals, chords, scales, and cadences on a broader level. So much of this is due to my knowledge of music theory. I have currently been using the Keith Snell theory books with my students.

Good luck! It sounds like your daughter has some talent.

Thank you for the great advice. She is turning 7 in March which is why I'm raising the bar for her a little bit. I think she has a solid head start compared to some kids (I didn't play until age 9!), so I think 7 is a great age to be on a regular routine of playing and practicing (which includes scales, drills, and sight reading practice.)

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

I am a dad helping my three children with piano playing, and found that Piano Adventures by Faber and Faber are great for sight reading, among many things. Start with the primer level and have her proceed through the levels, even if the material seems too easy for her. It is the gradual mastering of easy tasks that will make things such that sight reading effortless.

I bet if Rach or Mozart or Beethoven were alive today and played some of their works, it would sound somewhat different each time. They would be altering and changing the dynamics depending on their mood. Musicians do this all the time.

I doubt that. The composers have gone out of their way to make specific sheet music indications despite that they're things they would change all the time? Why would they do that?

And so, musicians do it all the time? Unless these musicians were one of those you listed, or near to their musicianship, I fail to see how that is relevant. Maybe they do such things because their musicianship is actually lower than any of those who you listed...?

I am a dad helping my three children with piano playing, and found that Piano Adventures by Faber and Faber are great for sight reading, among many things. Start with the primer level and have her proceed through the levels, even if the material seems too easy for her. It is the gradual mastering of easy tasks that will make things such that sight reading effortless.

Thanks so much. This is one of the great pieces of advice contained within this thread.

Most of the posts on this thread seem to be riddled with "piano world politics".

You've obviously never studied Chopin. There are tons of changes from original manuscripts to published pieces to copies from his students that he wrote comments and markings on.

I love the 'obviously' in this. I guess you know the person you're talking to VERY well to know that they have never studied probably the most impotant composer for piano. (<-notice the word probably).

As far as rumours go I think that Mozart composed at once, would make no errors and actually do it in minutes.

There's little to be known about the composers' wishes, apart from the scores actually. Before recordings were invented (so we are talking prior to the 20th century if I remember correctly) the only way to pass over information would be through word of mouth, or... typography! BINGO!

As a composer myself (I'm not comparing myself to Chopin or Rach, btw) I can tell you that I can do whatever the heck I want with my works. Incidently I'm very much in favor of my performers to have a strong personality. But also to have respect for my work, as well as a mind on their own. On a particular work, I asked 7 different performers to play the piece. I left a lot of things rather vague (like tempo indications, accels, no rhythm indications, no time signature, etc). 6 of them followed the score very closely, but of course each one with their own imagination and personality. It was wonderful. The performances ranged from 8 miunutes to around 11:30! An excellent result.

The 7th composer actually had a very close correspondance with me (all through the wonders of the net) and resulted in a 17 minute piece, along with a few added pages! all based to my agreement to do this (I told him that he can do pretty much what he wants, especially since he was an expert in contemporary piano music), and his knowledge and analysis of the score (he even proof read it a tiny bit for me! :D).

I'll be honest, prior to his delivery of the performance, I was scared that all his efforts would be in vain. Lack of trust I guess, But his respect for MY wishes, MY score, MY music (mine it's all mine! :D:D:D), made HIS performance the best amongst the 7 (including mine incidently!)

It's a complicated matter and I honestly have little trouble playing what the heck I want with pretty much anything. In my home, etc. When I will be in public, I will be very careful to what I play and always respectful to the composers' wishes!

This might be great advice, but if your daughter is using a different method book it will almost certainly also cause HUGE problems. Firstly, the teacher may not want to use another method for any number of reasons. Secondly, switching between methods can result in students becoming discouraged and disheartened if this switch is not managed very carefully, and part of this careful management is knowing when to move from one method system to another. Based on my experience, I would say it would be very difficult for the teacher, and for the student, to be working through two method books at once.

[quote=NagamoriI doubt that. The composers have gone out of their way to make specific sheet music indications despite that they're things they would change all the time? Why would they do that?quote]

You've obviously never studied Chopin. There are tons of changes from original manuscripts to published pieces to copies from his students that he wrote comments and markings on.

I have the complete recordings of Rachmaninoff playing his own works and there are sometimes 3 recordings he made of the same piece, each one different.

Music is a living, breathing thing. It can change, and probably should, with each performance.

I have to agree completely with the intent of this post, although I don't believe that it is necessarily clear that you haven't studied Chopin.....

The thing is that Chopin left completely conflicting scores of the same piece of music - he would write it down quite differently one day to the next and his performances of his own music would treat the score as a kind of opening statement from which the music of the moment would emerge. Very different to the anally retentive composers who emerged in the 20th century.

I'm a composer, and I sometimes struggle to come up with a 'definitive' version of a piece to put on the page. Once my definitive version is on the page teachers and students should know that if they follow my instructions they will be performing a cool piece of music. But my intention, as a composer of educational piano works, is that students explore with my music - that it is a catalyst for them to figure out new things - and this can only happen if they experiment, if they deviate from the markings I've made.

Ok Elissa, I'll come clean here Bar 38 in Groovy Movie, we often play 3 against 2 (i.e. continue the dotted 1/4 notes in the LH ), and we often put a pause on the last high chord. Glad I've got that off my chest

Actually, I should say that I find your compositions are extremely well finished, very thorough and balanced. Many times I have tried to change a note (that's just one of the ways I explore new pieces) but yours are very stable and resistant to improvements. I appreciate your thorough and thoughtful editing, thank you!

_________________________Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.Alex Ross.

This might be great advice, but if your daughter is using a different method book it will almost certainly also cause HUGE problems. Firstly, the teacher may not want to use another method for any number of reasons. Secondly, switching between methods can result in students becoming discouraged and disheartened if this switch is not managed very carefully, and part of this careful management is knowing when to move from one method system to another. Based on my experience, I would say it would be very difficult for the teacher, and for the student, to be working through two method books at once.

Just a thought before you hit the Amazon aisles.

Elissa, point well-taken! Thanks. My daughter is mainly working from - what else - Alfred! She works from the Level B book, and lately, we do about 1-2 pieces per evening for sight-reading practice. She and her teacher also cover this. What I love about Alfred - the pieces are short and sweet, and they're easy enought that I can "guide her" through the pieces (I won't dare use the word teach, 'cause I ain't no teacher...lol)

To get back to the point of the thread (ha! ha!), a last word about Sonny Stitt.

A friend, a journalist, had to go to Cleveland to cover some story. In the cab he he got to discussing with the driver, who turned out to be a serious jazz listener. The cab driver, who was black, told my friend, who was white, that Stitt was playing that weekend in a club but that he, my friend, couldn't go, it was too dangerous. So my friend asked him to accompany him to the club, obviously offering to pay for the taxi for the whole evening, as well as drinks and so on. So they went. My friend said that it was true, there were some of the roughest looking characters he'd ever seen. He and the cabbie stayed at the bar, on their feet, my friend holding onto the guy's arm.