On the "objective facts" side of things (or, rather, the "lack thereof" side), neither the dialogue nor the visuals establish that the shockwave of the explosion would actually have pushed the saucer into the planet. The shockwave shakes the saucer first, without giving her appreciable extra speed; the flight into the atmosphere happens a moment later, with the saucer supposedly spinning whichever way.

So, a disorientation scenario certainly remains possible, and even likely: the blast of an exploding boat doesn't actually push our heroic character to the bottom of the bay, but merely confuses him so that he starts swimming downward, thinking surface and salvation lies that way.

Pft... well insulting the other person is typically a sign your argument can't stand scrutiny

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First of all it wasn't an insult, but a joke (note the smiley).

Second, it's your argument that doesn't stand scrutiny. It goes against what was presented onscreen. The explosion caused the saucer section to lose helm control and crash into the planet. The line "Helm controls are offline!" makes it quite clear that it wouldn't have made a bit of difference who was sitting at the helm. The ship still would have crashed.

You've been trying awfully hard to suggest that it was Troi's fault the ship crashed and someone else at the helm could have prevented it, but the evidence just isn't there to support that.

Pft... well insulting the other person is typically a sign your argument can't stand scrutiny

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First of all it wasn't an insult, but a joke (note the smiley).

Second, it's your argument that doesn't stand scrutiny. It goes against what was presented onscreen. The explosion caused the saucer section to lose helm control and crash into the planet. The line "Helm controls are offline!" makes it quite clear that it wouldn't have made a bit of difference who was sitting at the helm. The ship still would have crashed.

You've been trying awfully hard to suggest that it was Troi's fault the ship crashed and someone else at the helm could have prevented it, but the evidence just isn't there to support that.

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hence the continual shifting of the goal posts to try and support a failing argument.

The only real problem was when Riker didn't order to fire everything at the Bird of prey.

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He probably did. After all, the ship did fire single phaser beams, which is the very definition of "everything" from the TV show (that single occasion in "BoBW" with the impossible pylon beams notwithstanding).

The plot isn't unpalatable in that sense at all. Dialogue as such covers all the plot holes. Shields are useless because the man operating them has been co-opted. Klingon shields in turn are holding in a twist that surprises even the Klingons themselves - but the audience shouldn't be surprised, as the tech wizard Soran had previously promised to do something about the fact that the villains were ridiculously outgunned. And yet the E-D fights back, constantly firing weapons, as we can hear from the background noises.

It's the visual presentation that is lamentably lacking: we see just a small fraction of the battle, omitting all those moments the heroes are firing back. And we never get the scene that's probably playing out several times as the battle proceeds: Riker orders shields adjusted some more, LaForge duly adjusts them, and the Durases watch and learn and do their own adjusting.

A "plausibly" superior enemy would have been no fun. The movie is about a bitter old man trying to change the unfair universe to his liking, and another opting not to; it's only fitting that the climax features a space battle between our heroes and a tiny, rusty has-been of a starship, and a wheezing and coughing fistfight between said two old men - both of which the hero side actually loses hands down.

It sort of counts as a "superior firepower win" that the E-D survived long enough to be able to technobabble the Klingons out of the game...

(And personally, I found the sailing ship a much more interesting element of the movie than the starships. Except for the E-B... Despite so many parameters being forced upon the redesigners and the people who shot the scenes, she looked positively regal.)

Timo Saloniemi

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All of the above, plus one more word:

Storytelling.

That's the one thing that trumps everything else in the world of movie making. Getting from A to Z in 2 hours is the goal.

It's not real life. If you're not willing to suspend disbelief, what's the point? You might as well watch a documentary. Just sit back and enjoy the ride, or don't watch the movie again and deny its existence. Easy choice, really.

Pft... well insulting the other person is typically a sign your argument can't stand scrutiny

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First of all it wasn't an insult, but a joke (note the smiley).

Second, it's your argument that doesn't stand scrutiny. It goes against what was presented onscreen. The explosion caused the saucer section to lose helm control and crash into the planet. The line "Helm controls are offline!" makes it quite clear that it wouldn't have made a bit of difference who was sitting at the helm. The ship still would have crashed.

You've been trying awfully hard to suggest that it was Troi's fault the ship crashed and someone else at the helm could have prevented it, but the evidence just isn't there to support that.

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And you're not apparently reading my argument by reiterating that. She had plenty of time before the "helm controls are offline!" line to maneuver. She in fact -did- maneuver as witnessed by the saucer turning away as they separated. I'm not saying she should've done some fancy maneuver after the shockwave hit. I'm saying she should've acted differently as she was flying away from the drive section, before it blew up.

It's not a difficult concept. If she positioned the saucer differently before the explosion all the shock wave would've done is push the saucer further away from the planet... as opposed to into it. The evidence is there to be seen by anyone... you just don't seem to want to for whatever reason. But anyways, I've stated my position several times... which you haven't countered the point at all that she could've acted differently in the time between the separation and the explosion.

Whatever. Troi wasn't responsible for crashing the ship no matter how much you want to pretend she was. We can joke about women drivers and all, but when a ship's helm goes offline, it's basically a very large brick at that point.

Whatever. Troi wasn't responsible for crashing the ship no matter how much you want to pretend she was. We can joke about women drivers and all, but when a ship's helm goes offline, it's basically a very large brick at that point.

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You're the one who keeps bringing up the women driver bit, not me. Just because Troi's a woman, doesn't give her a pass for doing something foolish. If Wesley had done the same, I'd be saying he was foolish.

Yes, it is a giant brick when the helm goes off line. But here's the hard thing to grasp... the helm didn't go off line until the shock wave hit it. So... she could... and did... maneuver it freely before the drive section exploded. She could've saved the saucer easily enough. Ro Laren would have I expect.

You still don't get any of it. I guess it doesn't matter. There just isn't anything to support your claims. A ship that can't steer is a ship that can't steer--it's as simple as that. It doesn't matter if it's Hikaru Sulu, Ro Laren, or Tom Paris at the helm.

You still don't get any of it. I guess it doesn't matter. There just isn't anything to support your claims. A ship that can't steer is a ship that can't steer--it's as simple as that. It doesn't matter if it's Hikaru Sulu, Ro Laren, or Tom Paris at the helm.

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Yes there is. Go back and look at the pictures I posted. Unless magic just caused the saucer to turn as they separated, the helm was operational before the drive section blew up. Got anything more substantive than me playing the gender card or not getting it to play to counter that? You still haven't provided it.

Deanna Troi is more qualified to pilot the saucer section of a Galaxy-class starship than anybody here, so let's just give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she knew what she was doing.

To be honest, though, if I was Riker, I probably would have just stood my ass up and taken the helm myself.

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Agreed on the first point about Troi, but I think most commanders probably are too busy making command decisions, with taking the helm as a means of ultimate last resort (like George Kirk did in Star Trek XI).