A-League Round 13 preview

Round 13 - unlucky for some. Two coaches parted company with their clubs during the week. Two other clubs are on the verge of losing touch with the top four. Round 13 could tell us who will be there come finals time ... and who will be making up the numbers.

Miron Bleiberg stood down after Queensland's loss to Adelaide last week. Frank Farina has since been named as his successor. The Roar also announced that Jayco would become their principal sponsor for the remainder of the season.

Queensland will not be forced to make any changes to the squad from last week, although Chad Gibson has been named in the preliminary squad, with one to be omitted.

Last week Melbourne scored a late winner to snatch all three points at the Telstra Dome against Perth Glory. The win kept the Victory nine points clear of their nearest rivals with nine rounds until the finals.

Mark Byrnes is omitted from the squad this week, and Adrian Caceres (groin injury) and Michael Theoklitos (back injury) are both expected to be out for one week. Kevin Muscat and Rodrigo Vargas both return from suspension. Peter Gavalas, who is on a short-term contract, will also come into the squad.

Perth Glory came within a whisker of getting a point out of their game against Melbourne last week. They desperately need a result at home this week, because no points this week will see them almost out of contention for the finals.

Ryan Townsend and Josip Magdic have been omitted from this week's Glory squad, with Simon Colosimo, Bobby Despotovski and Stan Lazaridis all returning from injury. Mimi Saric has been named in the preliminary squad, but two more players need to be omitted before the final squad is announced.

Newcastle Jets are flying, having picked up 13 out of 15 possible points over the past five matches.

Andrew Durante returns from suspension and is selected in the Jets' preliminary squad, with one still to be omitted.

Wins a rare as hens' teeth for the hapless Knights, who sacked Head Coach, Paul Nevin, after slumping to another heavy defeat. There are certainly a majority of fans who believe Nevin has been hard done by, and that the Knights' problems run much deeper than their Head Coach.

Gregory Duruz will serve a one-match suspension after picking up his fourth yellow card of the season against Sydney last week.

Central Coast Mariners were no match for the Jets last week and they, along with Perth Glory, risk losing touch with the top four should they fail to pick up any points during Round 13.

Paul O'Grady and Noel Spencer come out this week due to injury. O'Grady will be sidelined for up to six weeks, after tearing his hamstring and adductor muscles. Nik Mrdja and Vuko Tomasevic are called into the preliminary squad, as is Andrew Clark who comes back from injury.

Sydney FC got a much needed morale boost with a convincing win over New Zealand last week. They are now close to full-strength, with Steve Corica and Terry McFlynn both returning from injury. Jeremy Brockie will be omitted from the squad, but coach Terry Butcher must still drop one more player from his squad.

Only two weeks ago Butcher had only one outfield player on the bench, so this is a wonderful dilemma to have. Jacob Timpano remains the only player unavailable due to injury.

There is only one change to the Adelaide squad from last weekend. Bobby Petta has recovered from a thigh injury, and will replace Nathan Burns, who sprained his ankle at training during the week. Adelaide currently sit in second position on the A-League ladder, nine points behind Melbourne, and five points ahead of 3rd-placed Sydney FC. An Adelaide win will see them consolidate their hold over second spot on the ladder, and thus a chance to host the Grand Final.

LATEST COMMENTS

Queensland Roar (2) v Melbourne Victory (1)
Going out on a limb, The roar to win riding a wave of Frank Farina Excitement
Perth Glory (1) v Newcastle Jets (0)
Don't know why, but the power of Lazaridis will shine this week
New Zealand Knights (0)v Central Coast Mariners (3)
No crowd, no coach, no good players, essentially a bye for the CCM.
Sydney FC (3) v Adelaide United (1)
Sydney FC will trounce Adelaide because I finally got my size Medium Sydney FC Jersey! What more can I say!

Posted by: Scouser FC on November 16, 2006 7:08 PM

new-cas-tle, new-cas-tle
how good are?
pretty damn good
better then melbourne, more attractive football and even though we have okon we will win!!
go the jets

Interesting talking about luck - and changes of luck after changing your coaches. It worked for Newcastle - a big turn around there! I don't think it'll work for NZ (only an exorcism will work for them), but Queensland has to face Melbourne followed by Sydney; so any change of fortune (if it happens) will be spectacular.

Posted by: Brian on November 16, 2006 10:02 PM

Victory (20,000)
Newcastle (8,700)
Mariners (2,500)
Sydney (23,000)

I can't see Farina turning around Roar for this match-up they may in coming weeks but the Victory are in form and QLD clearly are not.

Perth unfortunately are not providing a credible challenge, they'll foot it with Newcastle for 75 minutes then lose the game.

NZ? Pass.

Match of the round, last years permiers versus minor premiers and no Carbone to win the match this time. A rivalry developed in only 1.5 seasons yet no less exciting than any other.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on November 16, 2006 10:46 PM

Roar 2 Victory 2 (15,500)
Ernie has already pointed out the usual short term effects of a change in coach (and Melburnians know all aobut that). My gut feel is that he will be more than happy to escape with a draw on this occasion.

Perth 1 Jets 2 (8,000)
And then there were 6.

NZ 1 CCM 1 (2,400)
This game has danger written all over it for the Mariners - at season's end, they will look back on this one and wonder, if only...

SFC 1 Adelaide 2 (13,000)
Has Sydney truly turned the corner? Do they really deserve to be in third spot? Are they likely to start their challenge of defending their title this evening? The short answer is no.

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 16, 2006 11:27 PM

Melbourne
Draw
Mariners
Sydney

I'm not going to bother predicting scores, suffice to say there wont be much in it.

Posted by: Wirral Lad on November 17, 2006 5:29 AM

Roar 2 The Frank Factor
Victory 2 Simply the best team in the land
Crowd 21,000

Melbourne - 1-0. MVFC to soak up the pressure and score on the counter. Frankie'll need a few weeks to stamp his style

Draw - Perth are playing for their season against the form team. Laza and Colosimo return to give them hope.

CCM - Mori to step up .... again. Heard the new NZ coach interviewed and didn't inspire. I hope they are not long for this league.

Sydney - Wish Romario was here a week earlier. Would've been a massive occassion. It still will be a top game I reckon with SFC getting their squad back at long last. Expect a good walk up crowd.

Posted by: Glebeboy on November 17, 2006 8:42 AM

Roar 2 Opposition 1
It's been said but, a change of coach will bring a change of fortune, even if it is Farina.

Perth 2 Newcastle 1
Enough said

NZ 3 Mariners 0
I wish, I wish.

Sydney 4 Adelaide 1
Carney & Sash to get a double each, someone from Adelaide to poke in a late consolation from a goal-mouth scramble.

Posted by: Brickowski on November 17, 2006 8:50 AM

ROAR-2 M.V.F.C.-2 (25 500)
PERTH-0 JETS -2 (8 000)
N.Z.-1 C.C.M.-5 (32)
S.F.C.-2 ADL.-2 (16 000)
The Victorian Government must be a bit concerned.Their building a 20 000 seat stadium for a football club thats averaging 27 000,& a rugby league club that averages 8 000.About 5 years ago I had a $50 bet with a nephew that within 50 years soccer would be more popular than league.This was met with fits of laughter.Now its already time to collect no one else can rember the bet.Some of you knock S.F.C. crowds,including Stan on 2UE.South Sydney play their 100 r.l. season next year,with all the puplicity they get,they can only dream of getting S.F.C. crowds on a ground they have called home.The A-league well & truely passed by union in its first season.

Posted by: EDWARD JAY on November 17, 2006 9:25 AM

Roar 2 Victory 1 (17,000)
I think Farina can pull it off. He's appointment will spur the players on, and they have the quality to do it.

Perth 2 Jets 0 (7,000)
Perth can win this with 3 of the best players to return.

NZ 0 CCM 3 (2,000)
How can the NZ defence contain Mori??

SFC 0 Adelaide 1 (15,000)
Adelaide will be out for revenge after the loss at home against the Carbone led Sydney.

Posted by: cheech on November 17, 2006 10:24 AM

QLD 3 MV 2 - 19k - Another friday night thrill a minute fixture, attacking football the way we like it.

PG 2 NJ 1 - 9.5k - Perth have the troops back and are due for a win.

NK 1 CCM 0 - .001k - A tough boring game, it will probably hail.

SFC 3 AU 1 - 16.5K - Should be another intense game, Sydney are looking more confident each week and having a full bench will do them wonders(Not that I trust what Butcher will do with them), Kossie has been away in London all week so AU will lack focus.

Posted by: Berserkski on November 17, 2006 10:49 AM

People,

Don't tend to tip results, but with the way the table is looking, this round is looming as a "biggy" for the league.

So my "for the good of the league" tips are -:

The Roar to catch Victory by surprise and install Ribot as a "bloody genius"! Crowd could be higher than people think, as my "Brissy" contacts inform me that members of the "Barmy Army" are already in town.

A must win for "The Glory", if they're to keep "The Shed" happy! Stan the man back for 60 minutes and Colosimo crunching Carle every time the ball goes near him should give the "Glory Boys" some hope. The Glory haven't played at home for a month, so hopefully "The Shed", starved of recent games, will turn up in numbers finally.

The match of the year should see the "Marinators" in a thriller. With the prospect being touted of a "sheep" taking over the reins at "Family & Friends only", crowd could be a "Sell-Out"! Last time these two met, it resulted in one of the worst football matches ever witnessed. So the sheep will have plenty to work on!

Is "The Butcher" the real deal or not? Have witnessed Bling EEEFCEE v Adelaide on 4 occassions. Every game was a "cracker". These teams seem to bring out the best in themselves when they clash. I can't see why this one would be any different? Bling EEEFCEE in a thriller is a must!!! or second spot on the table will be Adelaide's! Hopefully "Kossie" will be re-instated on a "plastic chair" for this one, boxing gloves close by. Crowd size unknown, but astute punters will be aware that these two teams historically produce "$20" well spent.

I really like the idea suggested in previous Blogs of having each club have their ladies team play before the men. If there is a sleeping giant still left in OZ, its Ladies Football! Huge in China & The US, why can't we be next? Plus, we have the added bonus that our ladies look great as well! It was interesting to hear Sara Walsh's comments on SBS last Sunday, before "Fozzie & Ange" put the gloves on, commenting on how 4 years ago "the Matilda's" would have been ecstatic if they'd even won a corner against the US. It seems that we are the "rising power" in Ladies Football. My contacts in China also inform me that many games for the next Ladies World Cup are "Sell-outs" already!

Did anyone see Cheryl Salisbury's "exquisite" flick through ball pass against the Danish Ladies? World Class by any gender's standard! The finish wasn't bad either! Something for Mr Lowy to think about?

Posted by: johhny warren on November 17, 2006 11:13 AM

Melbourne
perth
CCM
Sydney

Can't wait for the 30K + crowd at the thunder dome for the jets game next week. As usual, will go to the pub, eat a chicken parmie, drink a few VB's and watch the game tonight.

GO VICTORY!

Posted by: Fred on November 17, 2006 12:13 PM

Posted by: johhny warren at November 17, 2006 11:13 AM

Thats a good point re Barmy Army...perhaps the Roar admin ought get a text message doing the rounds up there offering a "special rate" to get them in there, how good would that be?

Posted by: Jed Petersen on November 17, 2006 12:16 PM

Hey to the chicken parmie eater.. you're not the real Fred are you? shouldn't you be playing?

Posted by: Will on November 17, 2006 12:43 PM

Roar 1 - Melbourne 3 (8500)

Perth 0 - Newcastle 2 (8000)

NZ 1 - Central Coast 2 (1800)

Adelaide 2 - Sydney 2 (12500)

Posted by: mattb on November 17, 2006 12:49 PM

Received the following news on the A-League in the FFA's My Football Newsletter.

Crowd numbers have increased 8.25% (536,976 up to Round 11 compared with 492,716 as the same point of last season)

- Hyundai A-League club membership numbers are approximately 34,000 in total, an amazing increase of 70%.

- Broadcast viewer numbers have increased a massive 32.2% at the same round last year.

- Hyundai A-League merchandise sales have also increased 20%

Added to that the Hyundai A-League weekly highlights show can now be seen throughout the USA, Canada, Middle East, Africa, Turkey and Israel to a potential viewing audience of 35 million people via Fox Sports International.

On the field, the number of goals scored is similar with an average of 2.75 goals per match (121 goals in total) up to round 11 of the Hyundai A-League 2006/07 season compared with 2.79 goals per match (123 goals) up to round 11 of the first season.

The crowd numbers to round 12 are even better with an increase of 12%(597,919) on last years figures.

Encouraging signs.

Frankie inspired Roar to win tonight.

Posted by: Vic on November 17, 2006 12:54 PM

There has been recent talk of a-league expansion, i would like to ask people based in NSW or sydney in particular, would a wollongong v Sydney FC be considered a derby? Would wollongong be considered a west sydney club? pardon my ignorance, but am a vic or Tard as you like to say in these parts.

Posted by: Fred on November 17, 2006 12:58 PM

speaking of pubs..

What are the best pubs for watchin Football (A-league and European) around Australia?

I'll tell ya a place not to go. I was watching Liverpool V West Ham in ONE world sports parramatta and at half time they turned it to Rugby?!! The patrons went right off, you never turn the TV over when Football is playing in a pub!

Posted by: Scouser Fc on November 17, 2006 12:58 PM

Will

I am too hairy to be considered brazilian.

Posted by: fred on November 17, 2006 1:01 PM

Fred,

Wollongong V Sydney would be a derby, but it wouldn't be as hardcore as Sydney Fc vs Western Sydney United (and as long as the a-league remains successful there will be a Westie team). With this match it will be North Shore Yuppies V (Sydney FC) vs the westie scum (me!!). But until then I wave the flag for Sydney FC.

PS Has anyone seen the undie commercial that Melb Vic done (featuring Fred)?

Posted by: Scouser Fc on November 17, 2006 1:14 PM

Scouser FC,

The local publicans havent got a bloody clue when it comes to football. They seem to think its only football if you have to use your hands.

And even when they do start to get it right they only go as far as man utd and chelsea

Posted by: Wirral Lad on November 17, 2006 1:20 PM

Wollongong is about the same distance to the south, as Central Coast is to the north, of Sydney.

Posted by: Brian on November 17, 2006 1:24 PM

Posted by: Michael C at November 14, 2006 09:21 PM

Mr. C,
After protracted and painful negotiation with Bigpond; we were able to settle on a new dial-up Internet connection contract. So we are back in business.

Sometimes I do wonder how my application was overlooked by Mr. Lowy for the CEO position for the FFA.

Now ...If I was a selector for the International Rules team and if I had to pick between Carey and Capper; I would pick Carey 9 times out of 10.

But the subject was how I determined a spectacular mark (in my words flying) and admittedly you are the expert in this area.

But when I went to a Swans match when Capper played he always delivered one good flyer.

Maybe I just happened to be there at the right time. I do agree that Capper couldn't lace up Carey boots as an all round football player.

Now Commeth the hour Commeth the man.

You have to remember the Socceroos lie about 40th in the world, that is why Dukes and Kewell (when fit) do not get the goals we would like to see; as we need to employ a system that keeps us in the game.

But to the purist, it is still fascinating to watch and comment on. If we were all Brazilians we would not be talking about not scoring goals; but we are not.

Near Misses

Now the question most asked of Pele (Brazil) and Gordon Banks (England goalkeeper) is that of Pele in the 1970 WC in Mexico was not the goals he scored, but the header he missed in the game against England.

And the most question asked of Gordon Banks; that save he made against Pele (Brazil v England).

I did see the match (on TV) and it was truly quite a spectacular piece of Football.

Better than the Craig Moore's header and the Ghanaian goalkeeper; but only buy a hair thickness ie not by much!!

Just ask any of our aging blog contributors; I am sure they would remember, if they were as old as me.

Koala Bear

Posted by: Koala Bear on November 17, 2006 1:29 PM

Wirral,
I think it was shake hilali that said if you leave uncovered meat in the park, the cats will get it, in this place, talking about football and using your hands is the uncovered meat, and the cats will soon be here.

Posted by: Fred on November 17, 2006 1:32 PM

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo at November 16, 2006 02:35 PM

Oh Yes Pip,

I certainly can remember the old days, I enjoyed them immensely and I can also remember that match at Olympic Park, Australia vs Scotland.

I watched it on ABC TV and a full house; the first real united crowd as everyone had wrote in the press.

Kosmina missed a header straight in front, from a David Mitchell cross.

We came close; but as they say not closer enough.

But my disappointments go back further getting smashed by Nth Korea '64.

This encounter was not played as a regular home and away contest due to Politics; both games were played in Asia on neutral territory.

Israel '69: The scene was set one last hurdle! Israel; down in the first leg 1 nil in Israel.

We needed a draw to force a replay.

The return leg was at the Sydney Sports Ground (Now SFS or Aussie Stadium).

Johnny Warren was the captain, I was sitting on the hill behind the goal and Spiegel (I hope I spelt that correctly) smashed the ball into the net about 15 mins remaining, to put us out.

I still can see that ball going in and hit the back of the net.

My heart sank to my knees.

'74 was a triumph, which of course you know all about. Should have been the beginning of 'Football; but not as you know it.'

I would love to relive some of your memories. And I did not see much of Football in Victoria as being from Sydney; but read some of what was happening down there.

I can vaguely remember a team called George Cross coming up to Sydney to play Canterbury Marrickville (Johnny Warrens old team).

I vaguely remember we got smashed that day.

I also remember Roma playing an Australian XI at the Olympic Park; reportedly a crowd of 35k; that maybe an exaggeration.

However, I would like to know. As I had said "not that it matters" but I am curious.

Koala Bear

Posted by: Koala Bear on November 17, 2006 1:40 PM

Posted by: Vic at November 17, 2006 12:54 PM

Vic, thanks for sharing that with us...I suspected that would be the case but its good to see the numbers to confirm those suspicions.

~~~

Posted by: Fred at November 17, 2006 12:58 PM

I'm with Scouser, A local derby but not a supercharged derby liked you'd expect from a Sydney FV v West Sydney clash...that would be war (not literally we all hope.

I think Mariners v Wollongong would be more of a derby match. North Mt.Druitt v South Campbelltown.

~~~

Posted by: Scouser Fc at November 17, 2006 01:14 PM

Yes, I dunno what to make of it...but its still goods to see Footballers getting media exposure in this country now for the right reasons not like Frank Farina's infamous..."Harry?...yeah I'm gutted too mate" tv commercial debarcle.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on November 17, 2006 2:09 PM

KB
Your memory goes back to that legendary play off with Nth Korea? Mate - that makes you a living legend! We on this blog should start showing you some respect forthwith. What was the combined score again? 9-2 or something like that?

Of course this is the team that went on to knock Italy out in 1966, and then had Eusebio's Portugal by the short and curlies, being 3 up after only 20 minutes (before Eusebio went about restoring some equilibrium shall we say).

Your memory is spot on about Kossie, it was Australia's best move of the day and the header was point blank - and let me tell you Kossie normally buried those - but the save was pretty good too! That was the turning point in the game. If you're 1-0, chasing 2-0, you can see some light at the end of the tunnel - imagine how everyone would have lifted. Do you remember the first game in Scotland, Australia held them to nil all at half time and were humming along pretty well. Remember Dalglish's antics? Anyway, Scotland scored their first goal from a long range free kick - and after that, it was only a matter of time that they would score a second because they lifted a notch and just ran rampant. Once they got the second, I can't remember how, they simply shut up shop. This is what I was saying the other day re that fiasco against Iran - when a WC spot is on the line, you don't stuff around.

Speaking of Kossie scoring goals, I remember travelling to Sydney in 1985 to watch an earlier qualifying game in the Oceanic group against NZ - I think we won 2-0 and that meant that we would progress to the final play off. Were you at that game? I'm sure Kossie scored at least one of the goals. But tell me, I wasn't familiar with Sydney at the time, what ground was it played at? I have an absolute mental blank on it.

Lastly KB, 1978 is the first time I can recall getting WC games live. The ABC showed 3 games from what I can remember: the opener (an extremely dull nil all affair between Germany and Poland), the Italy v Holland game, where Holland came back from 1-0 down by scoring two long range goals (this game was an effective semi final), and of course we got the final, between Argentina and Holland, which I remember as a game with plenty of drama, going into extra time at 1-1. Is my recollection correct there?

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 17, 2006 2:41 PM

~We on this blog should start showing you some respect forthwith.
* Pippu @ 02:41 PM

One of my most enduring memories is not as 'aussie' as may befit a response to "Koala Bear's" invitation but involves a then unknown Cameroon in the U-20 youth WC in Sydney, '81 I think.

Massive underdogs, having captured the public imagination and down 1-0, the entertaining and exuberant Cameroon are bravely holding out against a relentless onslaught from Argentina with minutes to go. Ref awards an obviously wrong penalty against Cameroon - naturally the crowd erupted at the callous injustice, but then a most curious thing happened. The quite large crowd started chanting; Cameroon, Cameroon, Cameroon . . .

Becoming louder and louder until the penalty taker made contact with the ball, the chanting crowd could surely not make any more noise. Well, they could and they did - when the penalty was missed. I think my ears are still ringing.

I don't know when the term 'the world game' became public currency, but I understood what it meant at that game - thousands of Australians going ape over a single incident involving African and South American teenagers . . .

I wonder how passionate Union fans became when African and Sth. American teams played each other here in their SENIOR WC?

Posted by: TT on November 17, 2006 3:40 PM

QLD 1-3 Melbourne (20,000)

Perth 1-2 Newcastle (8,500)

NZ 0-3 Central Coast (1,000)

Sydney 2-1 Adelaide (16,000)

Posted by: joe on November 17, 2006 3:52 PM

Great story TT! I had already forgotten that we hosted a youth cup so early in the piece - it was only 2 or 4 years earlier when it started wasn't it? And did we host another U20 one within 10 years?

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 17, 2006 4:01 PM

Posted by: TT at November 17, 2006 03:40 PM

Not like me to get into sports wars...but I was at Scotland v France in 2003 at our great Telstra Stadium, where their were about 50k souls in attendance, I'll admit it was a good game but the crowd was largely subdued, but then again many people like I were most likely sports fans just interested in being part of the spectacle of the Rugby World Cup rather than passionate Rugby fans or Scotsmen or Frenchman. There truely is something about Football that envokes one's passion about a contest.

I wish I could share a piece of the feeling from the Aust v Uru WC qualifier from Telstra Stadium last year...the cameras would not have done it justice, truely elecrifying. I don't think a site was vacated until well after the boys had taken their lap.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on November 17, 2006 4:01 PM

melbourne 3-1
perth 1-1 newcastle
mariners 2-0
sydney 3-0

Posted by: me on November 17, 2006 4:48 PM

glory:2 - newcastle:0
the shed will be fired up after a long wait and see glory over the line!!!

Posted by: toby on November 17, 2006 7:44 PM

QLD roar finally have a front shirt sponsor, Jayco.

Posted by: Scouser FC on November 17, 2006 8:19 PM

Queensland 0-2 Melbourne

An own-goal by Andy Packer and a goal from Archie Thompson.

Both goals came from defensive errors by the Roar.

Crowd = 14,797

Posted by: Ben Willing on November 17, 2006 10:16 PM

went to the pub, ate my chicken parmie, had a few vb's and watched queensland hack the living piss out of our boys. I guess its our turn to have some injury woes.

Great entertainment value though, fast and physical. Packer's touch was better than a striker could have hoped for, thanks for the goal packer, but not the ramapage that followed.

Posted by: fred on November 17, 2006 11:35 PM

Those that had thought that Sir Frank would immediately lift the Roar (like me) were very wrong.

Those that thought it was too early to stamp his mark were right on the money.

No one picked the scoreline, but mattb picked the margin correctly, although his attendance forecast was way out (8,500 - what were you thinking?)

I am not one to repeat myself, but as I said very early in the season (after round 5), Melbourne to defeat Adelaide in the grand final at the MCG in front of 70,000 fans.

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 18, 2006 7:57 AM

Well Frank certainly has his hands full. QLD were terrible last night. Once again the finishes were abmismal, but this time they combined it with poor passing poor and uninventive attacking decisions. When you pass the ball to a forward who is being marked by 3 victory players, who doesn't even look like he's planing to make a run, what do expect to happen? Reinaldo made one good pass across goals (which was of course missed by the QLD players running in) and that was it, the rest of his game was laughable.

Obviously Frank didn't have a chance to do much with the team so far, and it was a weak filled with drama. However even against Sydney next week I'm sure Roar fans will be demanding much more.

P.S I'm glad Andrew Packer doesn't play for Sydney anymore.

Posted by: Scouser FC on November 18, 2006 9:41 AM

Posted by: fred at November 17, 2006 11:35 PM
Fred
The reason the Roar appeared to hack the Victory was not intentional it was simply because our defence couldn't handle the swiftness of Victorys players and passing.
I'll swap either of your Brazilians for Reinaldo . He trys' but seeing Fred and Alessandro in the flesh their skill level is a class above.
With Muscat( himself a more skilful player than given credit for) directing traffic from midfield we were never really in it.
I'll give the Roar players A for effort last night but playing Melbourne emphasised the difference in class as a team playing like a team.
I dont know whether its the legacy of Bleiberg but our positional sense is poor at times.
Frank has a lot of work to do to get the Roar playing like a team that recognises the capabilities of its players and not trying to play above that level.
Hopefully with only eight games left he can keep us in the top four, but Victory just seem so much further advanced than us to expect more than that this season.
By the way the best most vocal travelling support I've seen at Suncorp this season.

Posted by: Vic on November 18, 2006 10:04 AM

"However even against Sydney next week I'm sure Roar fans will be demanding much more."

Too right Scouser FC.
I just cant get my head around the team that started this season and now.

Posted by: Vic on November 18, 2006 10:39 AM

pippu d'angelo and others who remember.

Legend! Legend! You flatter me.

But as they say we'll take the 3pts.

As my memory serves me.

Scotland v Australia:
Yes I remember Dalglish's antics in Scotland; but did not travel to Australia.

Souness was playing in Italy at the time and made it in Australia 24 hrs before kick off).

You may have been too young to remember; but the '66 world cup was during the cold war and Communist rule was pushing into the South East Asia (as we thought in those days).

However, politics aside, Australia as I said had to play those qualifiers in neutral territory.

Nth Korea was not allowed to come to Australia and Australia was not allowed to travel to Nth Korea.

As a result there was no film coverage that I know of.

We in Australia thought it was a formality and we would be heading to the 1966 world cup in England.

The first match apparently a sell-out in Asia and we were beaten comprehensively 6--0.

We in Australia were totally in shock 6--0 impossible! we thought. Must be some mistake; but no it was true.

All right; we will get them in the second match; well we got smashed again this time a respectable 3--1 thrashing.

As history now shows this Nth Korean side went on to do marvellous things in '66 world cup as you know.

We saw bits and pieces on ABC TV (Martin Royale) and the final. (I can't remember if it was live, but I don't think it was).

1985 Olympic game NZ; I have no recollection of it; but I would have been there I thought; I didn't miss many internationals in those days living in Sydney.

But I would be sure in saying; this game would have been played at the Sydney Sports Ground as it was pulled down in 1986 to make way for the new SFS (Aussie Stadium)

The Sydney Sports stadium had one grand stand on the north side and the east, south and west were grass hills and a 6ft high white boundary wall surrounded the playing area.

It was a Rugby and Soccer ground; too small for Rules.

Unless it was played at the new Parramatta Stadium west of Sydney and that may have been why I can?t remember it.

As it is a long way from home and I would not have travelled to the match.

Yes, Argentina '78 WC; that one we were knocked out by can you believe it, New Zealand, with their best player Winton Ruther getting the header. (not a 100% sure it was he who got the header)

But the best player ever to come out of NZ and went on to play in Germany.

It was at the Sydney Cricket Ground. I was sitting high in the Noble stand. I remember the crowd was stunned to silence; as we bowed out.

I do remember the Argentina v Holland WCF and thought, Holland were going to win.

For they had all of their stars except Cyruth who retired after '74 and after a fall out with the national coach. Neeskens was in that side.

I remember the winner for Argentina and it was Camposs who wriggled his way through the tired Holland defence to put in a low shot to the side of the keeper.

Ardiles and Veallar went on to play in England for Tottenham Hotspurs, and were stars in a FA cup final which was replayed after the first game was a draw.

Veallar was the star of the replay. (No penalty shootouts in those days) I can't remember who the opponents were nor the final score line.

Note: some of those player names may be misspelt a touch.

I thought Sir Frank was going to inflict Melb. first defeat.
I'll have to remember that one for the future.

Koala Bear

Posted by: Koala Bear on November 18, 2006 12:45 PM

Vic,

agree QLD is a great team, quality players, only thing missing is fluidity.

The melbourne support is nothing short of fantastic, i put it down to 2 things, 1 their form this year, but more than that, a proper team to follow, football is imensley popular in this city, people from the north seem to underestimate how popular it is.

Posted by: Fred on November 18, 2006 1:10 PM

I think that QLD miss Simon Lynch, he is a clinical finisher. QLD's midfield let them down and for mine that is the most important part of the team if there is such a thing. Vidosic is the only real creative threat and we hear so much about Wedau's potential but we have yet to see that potential realised. For a guy as talk as he is who can jump pretty well, I'd like to see Reinaldo do a bit better with his heading...look at little Archie Thompson diminutive as he is his heading ability is marvellous. I also think Reinaldo should stay up instead of coming deep too often a few crosses there he was nmot in good positiom, he should use his frame to unsettle defenders right in front of the net. Passing hurts Roar bad too...so many cheap almost park league losses of posession. Despite all that, with a bit more luck the confidence will return and so will the good times and against Sydney this season you are always in with a chance depending on which Sydney turns up to play. What is worrying for the Roar is if Newcastle and Central Coast continue their good runs...not to mention Mariners have only one more away game after this week.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on November 18, 2006 1:56 PM

KB
It must have been the Sydney Sports Ground - the way you have described it, it all gels. Since it doesn't exist anymore, that might perhaps explain my difficulty in recording where it was (I had no idea that the current SFS had replaced something else). It definitely wasn't the SCG as I am quite familiar with that ground. It wasn't Parramatta either. I went out that way once (Jan 1988) to watch the Socceroos v a Swedish club side, most probably Malmo - are they blue and white? Because the Australian supporters were outnumbered by Swedish tourists, and I remember their battle cry was something like blau wit, blau wit.

You mentioned NZ knocking us out of the race for the 78 WC, that might be the case (I can't honestly remember), but I am 100% certain that NZ knocked us out of 82 WC - because it went on to a final group stage of 4 and of course qualified along with Kuwait. However, I can recall that there was about a 4 or 5 year period when we simply could not get anywhere near NZ - they'd beat us there and they'd beat us in Australia as well.

People talk about frustrating times, but let me tell you people, I doubt whether we will ever reach those lows again!

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 18, 2006 2:05 PM

Fred,

I'm actually going down to Melbourne for the SFC match. What do ya reckon is the best way to get to the Telstra Dome from the casino?

Posted by: Scouser FC on November 18, 2006 2:34 PM

"and we hear so much about Wedau's potential but we have yet to see that potential realised."
Jed

Wedeau is supposedly a typical german midfielder able to hold up the ball in midfield to create a methodical build up. To me the opposite of the way Roar have been playing,
Initially he was injured but for this sort of player to stamp his mark on the game he needs to play every match and since Wedeau returned from injury Mirons selections have been all over the shop.
Miron went out into the market place pre season brought in some new players from home and overseas but to be honest I dont think he knew what he wanted to do with them.
An eccentric man.
Now Farina has to try and sort out the jigsaw puzzle.

Posted by: Vic on November 18, 2006 3:29 PM

Scouser
I'd say you're young enough and fit enough to walk it (judging by your medium size SFC jersey). Head out towards Jeff's shed, you're on the correct side of the river, and you'll see it soon enough. If it's a big crowd, I imagine you'll be doing the very same walk with hundreds of others.

The reason why I'm a bit vague (apart from the fact that I don't live in Melbourne anymore), is that I usually come from the Western end of the ground - the opposite end). This is where all the tight arse Bulldog fans coming in from the Western suburbs to park their cars go, and it's the same story, depending on the time, you could be doing the walk with hundreds of others - and there is absolutely no mistaking where they are heading! Let me tell you, my walk usually turns into a jog I get so toey! (as I'm sure you'll be, unless you've been on the turps)

By the way, in my younger days, in Melbourne, we called them guernseys - I'm not sure what the the usage today is.

This talk of medium sized jerseys/guernseys reminds me of a great trivia question.

Immediately after Italy's 1982 victory, I too was young enough to wear a medium sized guernsey. I bought an Italia one (in the immediate euphoria I spent the few dollars I had on anything to do with the victory - including a huge photo of the winning team - which still hangs in the corridor in the family home - I'll need to grab it one day - before my brother nabs it!).

Anyway, back to the guernsey, it had number 16 on the back of it. Which player of the 82 WC wore number 16 for Italy?

No it wasn't Paolo Rossi. But all the same, that makes for a good follow up question, what strange number did Paolo Rossi wear?

Final clue: these two numbers were worn by a creative left sided midfielder, and a goal poacher respectively (if you don't know who the goal poacher was, then you ain't been round long!)

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 18, 2006 6:28 PM

Vic ! - best way to get from Casino to Telstra Dome ?
Definately Shank's pony.

Posted by: BigAl on November 18, 2006 6:55 PM

Lokking forward to Sydney v Adelaide.
Carn Sydney.

Posted by: robbos on November 18, 2006 7:58 PM

No 16 ... Bruno Conti? Paolo Rossi wore 20. Rossi was at Vicenza when the had their best ever season 2nd in '78 (?) after having helped theym come up from B. Sadly they were back in B pretty shortly after. Must look for one of their shirts from this era.

Ah the Sports Ground - I think I saw Australia Vs Santos (2-2 and 28,000 crowd) there as a nine year old. I'd won the tickets in a competition run by the Daily Mirror ... so I took my dad. There were more newspapers in those days. Saw Australia V Man Utd about five years later there too .... I think.

Posted by: Vicentin on November 18, 2006 9:24 PM

Scouser

Just walk, it will take you 10 min. i am expecting the crowd to break the 40k mark which was set last time, my guess is 45k.

Posted by: Fred on November 19, 2006 1:16 AM

Ladies and gentelment - we have a winner - congrats to Vicentin - both correct.

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 19, 2006 6:53 AM

ScouserFC,

From the Casino, go up either King or Spencer Street until you reach Bourke Street, turn left and you are 5-10 min walk or 2 min tram ride from there.

cheers

Posted by: Redb on November 19, 2006 8:14 AM

Posted by: Vicentin at November 18, 2006 09:24 PM

Yes Vic, I was there as well at the old Sports Ground to see Pele and Santos.

I was a lot older than you. So I can remember very clearly.

Can you remember that Santos would not take the field unless they got their money in US$ cash?

It was quite farcical, they kept the crowd waiting for more than an hour and the announcer was reading out the player's names in slow motion. And I mean sloow motiooon.

Until the money turned up at the SSG.

Man U made several trips as I remember. One that I will never for get was the first at the Royal Easter Show Ground with all their stars then; Dennis Law, Bobby Charlton and George Best and co.

Koala Bear

Posted by: Koala Bear on November 19, 2006 2:25 PM

Pippu d'Angelo at November 18

Pip, testing the memory now.

You have got me thinking; I do remember that New Zealand knocked us out of the qualifier at the SCG. I can remember vividly the header scored by a NZ player WR and I do remember sitting in the Noble stand at the SCG watching.

But the year has got me stumped.

We know it was after 74 and around before 82 so maybe you are right, as I had forgotten about Kuwait.

So Kuwait to Argentina 78 and NZ would have gone to the Mexico World Cup 82.

Does that make sense?

You were right about the teams in that period; they were all evenly matched.

A very low period for the Socceroos.

1977, Can you remember Fiji beating us in in Fiji 1 nil?

Kosmina was the captain I think?

We managed to get out of trouble in the return leg.

The Olympic encounter you mentioned (86); I am now thinking that I did not go to that match.

I have a question; was that the team to go on to the Seoul Sth Korea Olympics where we caused somewhat of an upset by beating the highly rated Yugoslavian Olympic team?

I can remember Farina locking on to a through Ball and scoring a magnificent goal. Aust.1 Yug.0 ?

And Kossie getting a long-range gaol; but I don't think it was the same game.

'Socceroos v a Swedish club side, most probably Malmo'

Yes, I do remember that I was out there at the Parramatta stadium, but no joy as they beat us. That's all I can remember and the Malmo supporters out performing the Aussies.

But I was always use to that in those days.

That is why Aust. v Scot. WC qualifier At the Olympic park will always hold dear to my heart as it was the first time the Aussie support out muscled the opposing support.

Koala Bear

Posted by: Koala Bear on November 19, 2006 2:35 PM

Pip, and anyone else.

Puskas the Legend: Dead.
For those who remember a great player of his time.

Also he was the manager of South Melbourne and won a championship in the NSL. He had the mitis touch.

The Modern Game of Football

When I was first introduced to Football as a youngster.

I remember the best game ever played in the world declared by the Football community of that time, 1960.

That game was Real Madrid vs Entracht Frankfert at Hamden Park, Scotland.

The score was 7-3. Shown on the ABC hosted by soccer mad Martin Royale in the very early '60.

Real Madrid had the greatest names in football; Puskas, Di Stefano, and others.

That was the beginning of a love affair, that I passionately hold today.

Les Murray of SBS replayed that match about 2 - 3 years ago TWG.

So I told my son, come over and watch this it is fantastic.

Well Les said it is still the best game ever played. Now I have to question Les's mental health here; or is he still living in the past as I was.

Now I can say today, that game in my opinion was not the greatest game ever played.

Any of the teams that I have just mention; would have smashed Real Madrid of the early 60s.

The teams of their period were miles apart as the Socceroos vs Haiti, Solomon Islands, and other Oceania teams, if you want the big score lines than we should go back to Oceania. Not Me!!

Today’s modern teams are so sophisticated and much more tactically aware and totally organised in defence and attack.

That the likes of Puskas and Di Stefano and co. At their level THEN!

Would not have been great players today. Not that they were not great players of their generation; they were.

But the defence was dreadful to today's standards and no where nearly as fit or as fast as to get back in position as our Socceroos.

I think the modern game to me is so intriguing, so intelligent, so athletic, I could not think that the great Real Madrid of the 60s.

Even with their 7 European titles in a row, would get out of the group stages of the European Cup today.

I love the nil alls, the 1 nils, the 1 alls; too much modern Football is not nearly enough. (I wish I could have said that first).

Koala Bear

Posted by: Koala Bear on November 19, 2006 2:50 PM

Just got back from the Sydney V Adelaide game. First half was good, Adelaide's goal was nicely worked and taken, but in all other respect Sydney were the better team. Second half was, but for a couple of exceptions, crap. Refereeing was apalling too but believe-it-or-not he probably should have given more cards (there were nine yellow cards).

Sydney have plenty of good players but their lack of movement off the ball is really disappointing - they just don't give their team mates enough options. The thing that really drove me insane though were Clint Bolton's clearances and goal kicks - most were just speculative hoofs up the park and most of them were after everyone had their 30secs to get in position etc. It is such low percentage football. The ball invariably has to be "contested" in the air so that no one has controlled it - it seems that at least 50percent of the time it ends back up in one of the goalkeepers hands within about 15secs and the rest of the time it has gone for a throw or someone has fouled someone in the contest for the ball!!! This is NOT the football I wan't to watch. Neither Fyfe or Ceccoli, the wide fullbacks, seemed interested in getting the ball from Clinton so I don't know if this is the way Butcher is coaching them or whether they're all just playing clueless for the heck of it. I actually normally like these players though, Ceccoli unfortunately no longer raids up and down the wing so they're only getting about 40% value out of him. Fyfe just generally had a quiet one. Carney was good most of the time as was Corica. Zrdilic and Middleby were hard working but unimaginitive and one-dimensional. Brosque improved things when he came on, but Petrovski was about on par with Zrdilic ...mmm.

Adelaide - just a bunch of slow, nasty, overweight bully boys. They were rubbish - don't know how they're coming second. Costanzo is their only quality player and he was made to look silly on a couple of occasions by Carney. Dodd did nothing today.

Ok, Just thought I'd share that with you. Maybe I should go and drink a nice chamomile tea?

Posted by: Vicentin on November 19, 2006 8:56 PM

I've mentioned in the past I enjoy intelligent sports articles and opinion pieces, in particular, on the two codes I follow: soccer and the other which shall remain unnamed.

In today's SMH sister paper, there was a terrific article on a topic we have discussed often in the past month - youth development. Some of the facts and figures mentioned in this article bring into even starker relief a problem that we were already aware of.

Just in case you have not been able to get hold of it, the article is entitled "Troubled Youth" and is written by Michael Lynch. I will now cite some extracts of some of the juicier bits.

Firstly, there is a reminder that we lost the U17 WC to Brazil by way of a penalty shoot out in 1999. Now of course, I was aware that had happened, but I was actually surprised to find out it was in 1999 - to me, it seems like an absolute eternity ago. Here is the rub - who amongst this bunch of talented 16 and 17 year olds, that pushed a great country like Brazil to the limit, was part of Guus' socceroos as a 23 or 24 year old in the most recent WC? Only one - Josh Kennedy. One other, Jade North, has made occasional appearances in a Socceroo guernsey. A few are playing in the A-League, a few are eking about an existence in the nether divisions overseas, and others still have seemingly disappeared off the face of the Earth.

So this is the first interesting fact - by rights, we should have had a huge injection of talented 23 and 24 year olds into the Socceroos team to replace some recent retirees - but in fact - we have had next to none. I say to you all - this does not bode well in the least!

Some of us have already talked about the impressive midfield we were able to put together last WC (when all were fit). To have Kewell, Culina, Cahill and Bresh in front of Grella is perhaps as good as we may ever have. Is it possible that in fact 2010 will mark the peak of Australia's "golden age", after which we will suffer an extremely likely fall from grace?

Yes, this is mostly speculative - but on the other hand, the above facts do appear to paint a bleak picture.

The article makes the further point that we institutionalise our best players at the ages of 16, 17 and 18 - and they bypass regular senior football. Whereas the likes of Viduka, Bresh, Grella, Culina, Emerton and Sterjovski all played senior football in the NSL at a very young age.

Now we all know that that possibility is now missing, and it may or may not be fixed in the next season or so. This could mean a whole generation of footballers without little exposure to senior football at a critical age.

Now all of you might say, this will be rectified in the next few years and we will be back on track. Yes, but in the meantime, the rest of the world continues improving at the usual rate - are we destined to play catch up for a long time to come?

This is a fascinating subject and one likely to encourage a variety of viewpoints. My opinion is that on the evidence before us - I see a slide post 2010, and while we are likely to come back from that - it is far too difficult making a prediction on that front (there is simply no evidence to go on right now).

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 19, 2006 10:35 PM

Vicentin, I think you are a touch too harsh. 1st half, there was alot of movement by both sides with the ball & I too thought Sydney were the better team & deserved the lead at half time.
2nd half was not technically good , but Sydney lived up it's reputation of only playing 1/2 a game. They at least contested & tried hard. Adelaide also faded in the 2nd half & was more interested in hurting the Sydney players than scoring.
Both teams are a long way off Melbourne, as shown by the table.
It's a shame higher credit is not given to the league winners after the home & away season.
With Football being a low scoring game, one or two pivotal points in the GF can mean Melbourne may miss out on being the 06/07 champions. But they are easily the best team this year. Lets have finals football & call them grand final winners. But the true champion should be the winners after the home & way season.
Lets align ourselves with the rest of the world & not with the other codes in Australia. Otherwise we might as well give pts for hitting the side netting or corners.

One more point, if that was a 14,000 crowd (I thought alot more) then that was the best atmopshere for a 14,000 crowd that I've ever attended & I've attended many sporting events.

Posted by: robbos on November 20, 2006 7:54 AM

Pippu -

pretty close on the crowd guesses - just shows it's folly to predict a 50K aggregate without a Victory home game. (couldn't resist!)

KB -

back with a vengeance - the fact that you enjoy the nil-nil's while others lament them - just shows it takes all sorts.

Same with all sports I guess - the generalisations don't do anyone any favours.

So long as you walk home with some cherished memories. Sometimes I wish I'd never moved to the big city, and stayed just going to 1 or 2 matches (footy here) a year (although I would'na missed the Carey era for anything - irrespective of what I think of him as a 'civillian').

cheers

(got my first A-League game - well, actually, first soccer game full stop - coming up this week, going with a former Newcastle fellow who is more of a Rugby follower, but as gone along to a Victory game or 2 (he still supports the NSW sides?!?!? - probably still votes in their elections))

Posted by: Michael C on November 20, 2006 9:19 AM

good to see football fans discussing football

bad to see afl loving clowns coming on here and vomiting out their silly opinions and whats with that pipu guy is he a historian or something ... or just an annoying know it all

WE NEED A WESTERN SYDNEY SOCCER TEAM!

Posted by: Enrico_Is_Gay on November 20, 2006 9:40 AM

I dunno if we are going to have another post weekend hangover thread but...

How good is this finals race going to be? right now only team are all but assured of a place and realistically only one team has next to no chance of making it.

Perth really suprised me this weekend. Anybody have a good reason why Rodriguez is not a starter for the Jets...?

You might be right, everything else I've read about the game has been much more positive. I guess we got the three points in a six point game and they did play very combatitively etc. I still stand by my comments on the lack of mobility and woeful distribution from the back ie Bolton. I guess I really hate it when your team is defending a lead and they are putting so much pressure on themselves by not being in possession of the ball. If they'd played it around and spent more time with it up the other end of the park it would have been even easier for them - and much easier on the eye!

Hey at least they are all in A, this year whereas Vicenza may end up in C next year on their current form.

I think Roma must be playing about the best football in Europe at the moment and have a wonderful combination of locally developed younger players (De Rossi, Rosi and Aquilani) and Brazilians Taddei, Mancini and Totti finally getting back to his best. You have to admire the way they play.

Posted by: Vicentin on November 20, 2006 10:11 AM

KB
A small correction - both Kuwait and NZ qualified in 1982 - that was the first year that they had 24 teams. I think Iran qualified in 1978 - whether Australia and Iran actually crossed paths in the lead up, I can't recall, although it is a distinct possibility. Perhaps someone might be able to assist.

Michael C
Yes, I think I guessed the aggregate crowds to within a couple of hundred (as I have done on many occasions) - but I failed to pick a single winner! (which I have also now done on perhaps three occasions - the one time I picked all 4 now seems a very distant memory).

All of a sudden - everything between first and eighth is absolutely wide open - and my prediction of a grand final between the Vics and Adelaide at the MCG in front of 70,000 fans is looking shaky for the first time in a couple of months. I am going to persist with the prediction - but it does look like SFC is a bit of a bogey team for Adelaide - and if they were to meet in the preliminary final...

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 20, 2006 10:20 AM

I had a ball at Aussie Stadium yesterday. I though SFC played well, certainly alot better than previous matches. Carney deserves his "super Dave" chant. Can't believe noone from Adelaide got sent off.

Best part of all, we won!!!

Posted by: Scouser FC on November 20, 2006 10:39 AM

Enrico
The name is Pippu.

It is refreshing to receive your original thoughts on this blog, we are always looking for scribes of quality who are able to reflect intelligently on the game and provide a unique perspective.

Please feel free to entertain us with your thought provoking and intelligent contributions.

I put this interesting question to you and all our colleagues. Just in the last week or so I have come across terms such as "rotation of the captaincy", "leadership group", "6 point game", "rookie lists", etc in the media discussing soccer in Australia - now I wonder where I have seen these terms before?

Enrico - I know this is difficult for you to fully comprehend - but in case you haven't noticed - football in Australia exists within a cultural social milieu that is already highly influenced by Australian Football (especially in Vic, WA, SA, Tas, NT and southern NSW). They way I view it, that is nothing to be either ashamed of or to rebel against - simply understand, appreciate and enjoy.

If you wish to respond to any specific comment I have made or opinion I have expressed, I encourage you to do so - ultimately, that is the way any good blog worth its salt operates.

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 20, 2006 11:01 AM

Scouser,

Yes we won. I presume you were in the Cove. They were just going off, I have kids with me so I don't go to the Cove, but they were rocking & the atmopshere spread around the crowd & it made the game so much more exciting for me.
Someone said that the Victory away supporters were the best & I'd agree they were the best to visit Sydney as well. But, The Cove, the Shed, the squadron & all the other teams hardcore supporters, they make it an exciting day for all.

Posted by: robbos on November 20, 2006 11:13 AM

Koala Bear - "Ceccoli unfortunately no longer raids up and down the wing" and "Dodd did nothing today" . Perhaps Ceccoli may have been the reason Dodd was quiet? Loved the scenes of the Cove jumping - that shot should be played time and again when promoting the A League (and i am a neutral here, a Mariners fan).
Finally, why is that coaches can't learn from Hiddink that the bench is a stack of cards to be played to change the shape of a game? Butcher did nothing when Adelaide took charge in the second half. He could have taken off Middleby for Topor and moved Milligan up to midfield. He could have brought on Brosque, to play wide, for Zdrilic, but the only subs he made were like for like to replace tired legs - very English.
And finally - Fife's dive - isn't that exactly what Veart did last year in Adelaide?

Posted by: Michael on November 20, 2006 11:31 AM

Went to the game at aussie yesterday. It was fantastic, lot's of passion and noise; guess the fact it was Adelaide gave it a bit of extra spark given the history between the 2 sides.

AU missed Qu and Burns. Despite their territorial dominance in the 2nd half it was SFC who created the real chances.

Carney played great and will only improve; his lack of recent match time told in the 2nd half.

Rudan and Millsy were solid, in fact the backline were good throughout.

What about Sasho? 2 goals the week before and dropped to the bench!! Zdrillic is playing good football though at the moment, plenty of industry but low on flare.

Biggest surprise was Brosque on bench, coming on with 5 minutes to go. Shows Middleby is highly rated by TB, though Brosque has more to give; he's out of form and a bit low on confidence I think.

Average turn out and the football on show deserves alot more. Then again, after the fantastic year the game has had in this country, maybe we can get a bit too greedy too soon.

Looking forward to the Roar visit on Friday, time to give Frankie a serve!!;)

Posted by: Glebeboy on November 20, 2006 11:31 AM

Went to the game at aussie yesterday. It was fantastic, lot's of passion and noise; guess the fact it was Adelaide gave it a bit of extra spark given the history between the 2 sides.

AU missed Qu and Burns. Despite their territorial dominance in the 2nd half it was SFC who created the real chances.

Carney played great and will only improve; his lack of recent match time told in the 2nd half.

Rudan and Millsy were solid, in fact the backline were good throughout.

What about Sasho? 2 goals the week before and dropped to the bench!! Zdrillic is playing good football though at the moment, plenty of industry but low on flare.

Biggest surprise was Brosque on bench, coming on with 5 minutes to go. Shows Middleby is highly rated by TB, though Brosque has more to give; he's out of form and a bit low on confidence I think.

Average turn out and the football on show deserves alot more. Then again, after the fantastic year the game has had in this country, maybe we can get a bit too greedy too soon.

Looking forward to the Roar visit on Friday, time to give Frankie a serve!!;)

Posted by: Glebeboy on November 20, 2006 11:32 AM

pip,

You are absoutely right 24 teams from 16.

You have an amazing memory.

Time for my warm milk and a ly down.

Koala Bear

Posted by: Koala Bear on November 20, 2006 11:36 AM

robbos

"I have kids with me so I don't go to the Cove"

hehe smart thinking. The language in the cove can get a bit raunchy at times. Best place for the kids is along the sides, they might even get a signature from sasho!

Posted by: Scouser FC on November 20, 2006 11:44 AM

"Lastly KB, 1978 is the first time I can recall getting WC games live."

Pip,

Live telecasts:
I watched the 1974 West Germany WC live on the ABC, Black and White Trans.

Chile match, I vaguly remember we ended up with 10 men on that day and it was raining.

The captain was Peter Wilson.

Posted by: Koala Bear on November 20, 2006 12:00 PM

Vicentin

Yes I know - I was drumming up the courage to break the weekend's awful results.

Roma defeating Catania 7-0 - if that wasn't a sign that Catania were pretenders to a spot in Europe next year, nothing is.

Even Messina getting done 4-1 at home is a bit of a shellacking.

And for the third time this year, Palermo lost to a team that I don't really rate too highly - that's the same thing as saying that Inter and Roma are likely to fight it out for the scudetto (yawn).

Doesnt' matter what code you're talking about - it never pays to get too excited too early in a season.

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 20, 2006 12:02 PM

Enrico

Yeah Pippu!! (re. Enrico)

Not trying to be combative or anything!!

I'm a declared soccer dunce and AFL preferer - I seem to be accepted for perspective as well as clarification (both ways - you see, a bit like Pippu, I'm a student of 'football' history - and anyone who is such finds Australia to be a most remarkable casestudy).

Also, as Pippu alluded to, there is a code in Australia that is able to do things that the 'international' codes certainly can't do 'overnight'. (a bit like a small IT company vs Microsoft). Given that FFA has 'borrowed' heavily (in varying ways) from other (domestic Aust) codes thus far, there's no reason to believe that this won't continue - the question is 'how'? For that reason, the more general discussions become multi disciplinary - so please, if such topics appear, feel free to avoid them. Likewise, feel free to engage - but please, avoid the partisan rubbishing - we've been there, done that for the most part moved on.

[also note, that often there are specific threads such as rnd 11, that continue, even whilst rnd 12 was up and going - so respect the threads!!]

Posted by: Michael C on November 20, 2006 12:12 PM

Some nice historical facts for the day.

Catania's "Golden Age" was the 1960-65 years when they were mid-table and sometimes top half of Serie A. Stars of the side included Cinesinho, Carlo Facchin, Alvaro Biagini and Giancarlo Danova.

The team's captain in the early 1960s was Mario Corti, who later emigrated to Australia and (IIRC) still lives in Adelaide.

Their last Serie A stint was in 1983-84, when they finished with an absymal 12 points from 30 games despite the presence of players like Claudio Ranieri. Ranieri had made his name in Serie A with Catanzaro in the late 70s and early 80s.

Posted by: David V. on November 20, 2006 12:15 PM

Pippu, Fred, Napoli won and Juve slip up to their 3rd draw of the season. Napoli are now ontop of the table.

Posted by: cheech on November 20, 2006 12:20 PM

'they might even get a signature from sasho'

Personally not a big Sasha or Zrilich fan. I know some of the crowd love Sasha. But I think they are big on industry & heading ability & good shooting but low on speed & skill.

Michael,

I agree, Butcher lapped up the win yesterday but lacked the ability to change the game plan when Adelaide were controlling the midfield. He hasn't changed my opinion of him after the last 2 wins. His ideas are very limited, relying on guts & industry & his teams play likewise.
Melbourne has shown the way with the Brazilians, lets follow.

Posted by: robbos on November 20, 2006 12:20 PM

Re the embarassing hiding that Roma handed out to Catania - perhaps Roma was inspired by the presence of Tom and Katie in their environs.

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 20, 2006 12:23 PM

Michael at November 20, 2006 11:31 AM

You've wrongly slighted Koala Bear, they were my comments. Regardless, Ceccoli was very static yesterday and he has a lot more to give than just being a standard fullback. But this is one of the points I'm trying to make about Sydney's play - they're too static, there aren't enough interchanges of position or options for the player with the ball. You can tell by Butcher's team selections and the style of play that creativity isn't on his list of "c" words. Michael, you make the point that the substitutions were more-or-less like-for-like. I agree - it was a bit pointless.

Robbos - I took my son along too and so don't go to the cove. The downside is missing out on some of the atmosphere, but I do get to see the game more objectively than some IMH(umble)O.

Pippu, sorry I had to "out" you. Palermo only lost it in the last minute of the game I think. Also, Guidolin is great manager (was great with Vicenza last time they were in A)and the team is good too so I don't predict a free-fall from here for them. For strange historical reasons (they must have won something when I was about 10)I'm cursed with also being a Juve supporter with a father that supports Inter ... so definately going for Roma (fantastic city anyway) or Palermo this year.

Koala Bear (Koala Bear at November 19, 2006 02:25 PM), I was too young to remember the hold-up while they waited for cash - do you remember that in the "Possibles V Probables youth game" they picked a player - infact they picked two, who would go to Brazil to Pele's soccer school (I think)? One went on to have a decent NSL playing and coaching career (Berti Mariani) - don't know what happened to the other. Can anyone enlighten me on this? History, that should annoy Enrico!

Posted by: vicentin on November 20, 2006 12:33 PM

Re: Sydney crowds.
SFC never seems to get a decent crowd on a sunday arvo. They need to have more Friday and Sat night games to get in the teenagers & 20 yeol.

Crowd this friday will be 16-18,000

Posted by: PJ on November 20, 2006 12:34 PM

KB (KB only, please don't be offended - we've been having a chat)

When the Swans were the only 'interstate' side, I think 80% of Victorians had them as their '2nd' side - chiefly because we saw them every 2nd wk on tele on Sunday arvos. Certainly, we all loved Capper (on the ground). Reality, it is those sorts of players who will often be the difference bw going or not. The robots are a bit boring (that's why I struggle with overly defensive games - even as I've indicated that I've long been a defender - but defenders need to defend and also rebound and set up scoring opportunities).

Anyway, most important thing in Aust Rules is location of marks (inside 50) and Carey and Capper we both capable of taking a disproportionately high number of 'contested' marks in that zone - and both in very differing manner. The 'flying' bit, that's a bonus - that's like getting the party tricks too.

Now, Roar this wknd had 20 attempts, 7 on target and got zippo (6 glkp saves), v Vctry 10 attempts, 3 on target - 2 gls (one an own). Seems like the poor old Roar should've walked all over Melb but for the lack of someone to finish off.

For the rnd, 110 attempts, 53 on target, 10 goals. 2 from Pen's & one OG. I assume the attempts does count penalty kicks, and does count the play that resulted in the OG. Anyway, lets just say 7 gen play goals from ~105 gen play attempts, thats 1 every 15 attempts - that's a 6.67% success rate. (how do you rate this sort of stat - is this typical of the 'modern' game? - do you even care? {if anyone else has read this, feel free to comment on this bit - I'm curious - this is basically the stat's only view; no judgements etc})

Who over achieved? Syd FC by a long way, 2 from 7 (5 on tgt - althougn inc a pen). I guess perhaps Roar had more unrealistic attempts?

I refer to a sporting truism - "The harder you work, the luckier you get" - unfortunately, (and this is probably half of the attraction) soccer seems to throw up a few lotteries now and then (more so than other sports).

Do you see where I'm coming from? That's how I get frustrated watching Australia when Viduka can't get near it.

Ben Willing:
Michael C & KB,
If you really need to keep discussing, at length, AFL - please either relate it (in some way) to Football, or go and hijack an old SLOG thread.

Posted by: Michael C on November 20, 2006 12:52 PM

David V

Thanks for those historical facts on Catania. I have a personal recollection of Catania playing in the 1983-84 season. I recall that they had to play off with someone in the Serie B to make it. I recall it quite clearly because my mother had been visiting family in the Pruvincia di Catania earlier in 1983 - so everyone was quite excited about the prospect of Catania playing in the Serie A. They drew their first two games from memory, but it was all down hill from then on.

I didn't know about their glory years. That would mean that in the early 60s both Catania and Palermo were there together for at least a couple of seasons. It could well mean that in fact three Sicilian sides have been there before at the same time, because Messina too has had stints in the Serie A in the past, including some time during the 60s - that would be an interesting trivia question.

It is an interesting quirk of the world game that a club that is able to float around mid table for a few years, can rightly describe it as a "golden age". That is the nature of the beast.

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 20, 2006 12:57 PM

"Biggest surprise was Brosque on bench, coming on with 5 minutes to go. Shows Middleby is highly rated by TB, though Brosque has more to give; he's out of form and a bit low on confidence I think."

Glebeboy or other Sydney fans.
How do you rate Brosque?
This guy has been touted for a number of years now as(and this is now a bit of a cliche in Aussie football) as the next Harry Kewell.

Last year at the Roar I thought he didn't reach his potential because of eccentric Miron but from the reports I've seen(dont have Fox so can only go by reports this season and what I saw at Suncorp last season) it doesn't sound like he's set the world on fire at Sydney.
My gut feeling is that he's turning into a bit of a Nick Carle and hes got one or two of the ingredients missing to make a top class professional footballer drive and ambition being one of the main ingredients.

Ben Willing:
Brosque hasn't really been in form all season (apart from the pre-season). Perhaps a spell on the bench will be the wake up call required to get him to give 100%. Middleby has been performing well all season (when he's been available). So a good decision by Terry Butcher in my opinion.

Posted by: Vic on November 20, 2006 12:57 PM

"relying on guts & industry & his teams play likewise."

robbos

I wonder what nationality he could be?

Posted by: Vic on November 20, 2006 1:01 PM

Vic, Glebeboy and Ben Willing,

Brosque was not out of form throughout most of last season too with QLD don't you think?

Time to produce the goods methinks.

Ben Willing:
Yes. I agree.
I was impressed by Brosque at the Athens Olympic Games. I really believed he'd be Australia's next big thing. I was surprised by how poorly he performed at Queensland (actually - not 'poorly', what I mean is that he was average).
I guess I still have big expectations for Brosquinho, but he is yet to deliver.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on November 20, 2006 1:15 PM

Cheech
Keep the updates on Napoli coming. I don't normally go seeking the Serie B results, but if Catania and Messina keep copping poundings, I might have to change that!

I know Juve copped a points penalty and all that, but it would be a precious thing to witness Napoli finish higher than Juve in the Serie B!

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 20, 2006 1:18 PM

I have two really interesting articles to share with everyone from SMH's sister paper - both if which you probably will not get to see, in particular, this one.

We all probably know by now that the FFA is all set to nominate Sydney and Adelaide for the 2007 Asian Championship, despite the fact that the Vics are now a certainty to win the minor premiership (and are almost guaranteed to at least appear in the grand final).

If that is unfair on its own, the FFA are hoping to revert to picking the best two teams during the 2007-08 season for the 2008 Asian Champions comp. This could well mean that Melbourne, minor premier and maybe champion team of 06-07 not only misses out on the 2007 AFC comp, but may well miss out on the 2008 AFC comp! Now I know I am being a bit partisan here, but really, this amounts to an extremely unsatisfactory decision.

The Vics are already talking of pursuing the matter in the courts if that were to be the outcome - and personally, I can't blame them.

pippu d'angelo

Ben Willing:
The thing is that the Asian Football Confederation has had these rules in place which the FFA believed they would be able to circumvent.
It would definitely make more sense for this season's Premiers & Champions to represent us in Asia, but whether the AFC chooses to bend, or change, the rules is completely up to them. There is a precedent with domestic Cup winners from the previous season going into the Asian Champions League because the Cup final is after the cut-off date for nominations to the ACL.

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 20, 2006 1:25 PM

Re: Brosque

I think he played the best this year for the brief period he was paired up with Benito Carbone. He does need to step up a mark now though.

He's one of those players that could do nothing for SFC this year, then move to perth glory and become a regular goal scorer.

I wonder what movement we'll see in the A-league whent the transfer window opens?

Posted by: Scouser FC on November 20, 2006 1:34 PM

Ben Willing

We recently voted KB in as a living legend - it was unanimous - you can no longer treat him as a mere mortal!

(on the other hand, that Michael C is the devil incarnate, I've always said that, and he deserves everything he gets - it is he who has dragged KB before the authorities for questioning - but surely the status we have bestowed upon KB gives him immunity from all sanctions)

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 20, 2006 1:34 PM

Posted by: Michael at November 20, 2006 11:31 AM

Hiddink the best in the world!!!

Spot on Michael, our managers in the A-League are a bit naive to say the least; but they are learning. Nick Theodorakopoulos was a total surprise to me for getting the sack, well not a surprise.

But I think he was a victim of some very bad luck and player power with an inpatient owner.

Financial wrangles, Ned Zelic saga, all worked against him.

Yes, his time at the Jets as a manager was lousy. I won?t mix words he failed miserably.

But he really is a thinking manager not afraid to make some unexpected changes as he did when he was the manager for the Wollongong Wolves and won a championship there.

3 nil down to Perth at half time made changes and pulled the game back to a 3 all and then won in a penalty shoot out.

He took Parramatta Power from down the bottom of the table to minor premiers and to the grand final.

Now the only reason that I am using Nick as a topic is because he is a tremendous communicator.

You just have to see his contribution on The World Game to see that.

Terry Butcher on the other hand rants and raves to his players and they don't like it.

Calling out to players F### wits is not going to make them perform better the opposite.

But you have a good coaching team at the Marinas Laurie and Alex Tobin some very good men there.

Good luck for the season.

Koala Bear

Posted by: Koala Bear on November 20, 2006 1:40 PM

Yes, I've been waiting for Brosque to produce all year, I think maybe he is playing in the wrong position. He should be playing behind the striker & in front of Corica with Tuguy the holding midfielder.

Ben Willing.
I couldn't agree more. Either as a second striker, just behind a lone striker or as a central attacking midfielder (Corica's preferred position).

Posted by: robbos on November 20, 2006 1:46 PM

Michael C

Re scoring ratios, I think it is too difficult to apply thresholds or talk of norms. Last Wed, we've already discussed the terrific performance of the the Ghanaian goalie, Kingson, which went a long way to explaining why the Socceroos had only one goal from around 8 attempts to speak of at half time. But even then, I think it is fair to say that most fans would be a touch disappointed to enter the half time break with only a 1-0 lead to speak of after controlling much of the first half. Let us cast our memory back to late 1997 when in the first half against Iran, it seemed like we had 8 clearcut chances in the first 20 mintues alone, with absolutely nothing to show for it.

When we start talking about the upper echelons of the WC, say, final 8, and we're up against the likes of Brazil, Argentina, Italy, France, Portugal, Spain, Holland, England, Germany, etc. just to get into the top 8, it seems to me that we're only going to get 2 or 3 chances per game - and we better nail at least one of those. That's the modern game as I see it at the top international level.

As I said, Italy's goalie, Buffon, averaged about one save per game for the whole 7 games of the WC - that's the modern game.

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 20, 2006 1:47 PM

Brosque was on the bench for the Bahrain match when all the wc socceroos came back, so he is rated highly & the potential is there, but I agree he has yet to deliver.

Posted by: robbos on November 20, 2006 1:51 PM

KB & Ben Willing - yup, I'm done on that one re. AFL stuff. Would've been neater to leave it back on rnd 12 or 11 or where ever it was. Sorry 'bout that.

That said, if patience is stretcheable, I am still curious about the stats aspect -

That said, given that the A-League official site actually presents Attempts Off target as a 'valid' stat - is this considered a 'good' stat (workrate) or a 'bad' stat (wasteful) - it seems a bit ambiguous to me.

Does this sort of stuff mean anything at all? does it get done in 'industry' mags? If so, is it done anywhere discounting the penalty shots - they really do seem to demean the stats.

Posted by: Michael C on November 20, 2006 1:51 PM

Posted by: Michael C at November
20, 2006 12:52 PM

Michael C re the Roar/Sydney Fc questions.

If you are genuine in your question and want a genuine dyed in the wool football fan answer.
Here it is.
The statistics mean zilch.
The question means zilch from the perspective you are asking it from.
What counts to me is why the Roar are not putting the ball in the back of the net as compared to say Melbourne or what we did at the beginning of the season with scoring goals.
Is it the coach now gone Miron and his coaching methods or did he choose the wrong players to suit his intended playing style.
Did he recruit too many attacking players who he chopped and changed every game so that players didn't have a clue who was supposed to do what and where and at which time.
The Roar play attacking football that fact is recognised by fans of other A-League clubs.
But what is lacking(and this is true from the beginning of last season) is method in their play where players have the time to think and take up their correct positions for either passing or receiving the ball.
This is particularly important in the oppositions half in the final third of the field where the scoring chances are created.
The question I asked myself over and over again on Saturday night is where is our Muscat a general who can dictate the flow of play.
If anybody ever saw the white tornado cleaning ads the Roar play like that at whirlwind pace but the coach left out some of the main ingredients to make it work.
So I guess the basic question I ask is what is wrong with the Roars tactics given the attacking players we have.
The game is like chess at speed what counts is the ability to outwit and outfox your opponent but the winner is the one that gets the peices(players)into the right position to acheive the killer blow.
That is what a football fan looks for and thinks about when watching a game.

Posted by: Vic on November 20, 2006 1:51 PM

Live telecasts:
I watched the 1974 West Germany WC live on the ABC,
Chile match, I vaguly remember we ended up with 10 men on that day and it was raining.
* Posted by: Koala Bear at November 20, 2006 12:00 PM

Yes, I remember watching too - it must've been the Chile match I saw. I think it was half-time when a downpour struck. My most distinct memory is of a shot of the terraces being abandoned by the crowd, scrambling to get out of the rain, then a little later, another shot of the same location showing only one fan staying put were earlier there had been thousands.

I guess WC tickets weren't quite as valued as they are today.

Posted by: TT on November 20, 2006 2:02 PM

The 2nd article from the SMH's sister paper I wanted to discuss was a tribute from former England striker, Gary Lineker on the Hungarian great, Ferenc Puskas.

(For our younger members who may not be aware, Gary Lineker had a terrific 1990 WC, helping England into the semi finals; from memory, he came second in the goal scoring to Italy's Schillaci in that tournament)

In paying tribute to Puskas, Lineker does what most do and that is refer to the famous 1960 European Cup when Real Madrid defeated Eintracht 7-3 (let me stress, it is absolutely impossible for anyone to do otherwise, so this is no criticism of Lineker).

He says: "It was one of the best soccer games of all time, and, unlike most of the old footage you see, never seems to date. You could be watching last year's Champion's League final, so fresh and innovative is the play."

Obviously Lineker is gilding the lily a bit here. Others on this blog have already discussed the vast improvement in skills, fitness and athleticism of all players since that time, and most importantly, the improvement in defensive strategies. I think we all accept and understand that, let us remember that catenaccio was to appear on the scene almost immediately after 1960.

But there is another side to all this that brings me some way back to Lineker's position. While it has been a while since I have seen a replay of this game, what strikes one when one watches it is the fact that the game is so clean, polished, open and unimpeded. There is no diving, holding on, tugging of shirts, tripping, cynical tackles, double footed slide tackles, showing of studs - there is absolutely nothing that comes even close. It is simply a beautiful game of soccer - you know, the beautiful game, joga bonito, etc.

Today's footballers are certainly miles ahead in terms of athleticism, skill and fitness - make no mistake - but there is little doubt in my mind that modern day soccer has lost much (or rather gained some ugly elements) in the process.

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 20, 2006 2:13 PM

Cheers Vic,

certainly, that helps.

As I've indicated, I'm off to the Dome on Sunday evening - I don't want to be wasting my hard earneds, so there's no point me going in too ignorant or with a silly negative attitude from the start.

Pippu

ta again Pippu (why do I keep accidently typing Pippy?!?!? - I do correct it though!!). I realise that it's hard to take one game in isolation, but with a club competition over 21 rounds. Anyway, I was just perplexed at perhaps both what IS on the A-League stats section and by what ISN'T.

Posted by: Michael C on November 20, 2006 2:14 PM

This is why Goalscorers are paid so much. Romario, playing for Adelaide this weekend, was one of the greatest scorers of alltime. In 1994 he was the best player in the WC that year. IMO, he was not as skillful as the other star of that tournament, the devine ponytail Roberto Baggio, nor did he do much work (the industry). But he had this ability to do nothing & look nothing for 85 minutes, but in those 5 minutes he does play, you could be 3 -0 down, such was his startling ability in front of goal. Looking forward toseeing him play even at this grand age.

Posted by: robbos on November 20, 2006 2:17 PM

Vic at November 20, 2006 01:51 PM

The game is like chess at speed what counts is the ability to outwit and outfox your opponent but the winner is the one that gets the peices(players)into the right position to acheive the killer blow.

I remember watching The World Game and I believe it was Craig Foster who suggested that QLD do have lots of shots on goal but but maybe their are shooting before all the pieces are in place. Maybe they should shoot less and less speculatively and they'd get a better return?

On Brosque, I think he looks better when he has quick thinking players about him. He makes plenty of runs but they rarely get picked up - I'd like to see him get more of the ball. At yesterday's game I pretty much only saw Middleby (for all his hard work and industry) on one side of the park and same goes for Carney. Brosque had five minutes on and I saw on both sides of the pitch on numerous occasions. I don't think Butcher knows what to do with Brosque (and others). If Benito had been around for a few more games and if Butcher actually played him (benito) in his proper position behind the strikers (only against Adelaide) I think we would have seen a better side of Brosque.

Posted by: vicentin on November 20, 2006 2:21 PM

Re: Chamipons League

As much as I'd rather have the current champions in the tournament, at the end of the day as long as A-league teams are in it then I'd settle for that. I mean, if we kick up a stink, they could just just not include us at all.

When you look at it when Barcelona win the EUFA CL, they qualified for it 12 months ago. With our teams it will be 18 months ago.

Posted by: Scouser FC on November 20, 2006 2:30 PM

I think Bleiberg's recruitment drive in the off season hihglighted his lack of tactical nous. Don't get me wrong, I like the guys as a personality. But last year he was criticised for being unable to find goals, he answer was to bring in more power up front with Milicic, Lynch and Zhang. I was concerned with throwing so much money at just one problem. He ended up playing a 4-3-3 becuase he had to justify the number of signings in that position, by with such a formation, you need a very good midfield to give adequate service to the 3 up front and control the midfield when out numbered by a man.

A comment on statistics...they can help you identify a problem but they can't help you solve it. One statistic that is not measure is how often QLD get into real attacking position and end up over cooking it and wasting an opportunity...this happens when a team is dealing with a lack of confidence, you second guess each decision you make.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on November 20, 2006 2:43 PM

Pippu,

Messina had two years in Serie A in the mid-60s (1963-65). They fell into obscurity in the 70s, before returning to Serie B in 1986. Salvatore "Toto" Schillaci was their star in the 80s, nearly taking them to Serie A in 1987- finishing 8th that year. They repeated 8th place in 1989 under Zdenek Zeman- but both Zeman and Schillaci left Messina and they would be relegated from Serie B in 1992.

Bankruptcy followed, and both Messina and Catania spent the 90s in amateur obscurity before making the long, long climb back up.

Palermo's Serie A stints in the 60s were 1961-63, 1968-70. Their last season in Serie A, until recent times, was 1972-73 but they reached a Cup Final in 1979.

Posted by: David V. on November 20, 2006 2:45 PM

Michael C

When someone starts comparing soccer to chess - that's your cue to drop the whole subject and run as far away from it as you can.

In my experience, the chess analogy gets used more often when a game is locked at nil-all and neither side looks remotely like scoring a goal - that's when the commentators will invariably say: "It's like a game of chess, each trying to find a weakness and an opening in the other."

Can these games be fascinating - yes - do they all stand up to that sort of description - definitely not!

I have to confess - until this blog came along, it had never occurred to me that stats were not used in soccer. In the game that will remain unnamed, it is possible to come up with literally hundreds of stats. If people are wondering why the coach has a dozen hangers on up there in the box, half are assistant coaches, and the other half are recording stats - every conceivable stat you can imagine. Why? Because if one team is scoring more than the other - there will be a reason for that and the stats help you understand that reason. Furthermore, a coach can change things mid game, not once, or twice, or three times, but every minute of the game.

Personally I too find it hard to believe that stats can have no part on game day. The fact that the ball is moving around the field by 11 players on each side means that there are certain things worth counting, and they should be counted to better undertand why one team is creating more opportunities than another. Even if fans are oblivious to this truism - you can bet your bottom dollar that the day will come when a coach will be mistified as to why stats weren't being kept previously.

I end with one point, I often read match reports in Italian (in the Italian papers), and it is certainly true that they can have as much to say about a dull nil-all draw as they will about any other game. It is all done descriptively, in the 11th so and so ran down the left, linked up with so and so, then so and so overlapped and created space for a cross that was overhit, etc., i.e. there are absolutely no stats.

This starts to make a bit of sense when you consider that Italy's quite achievable KPI is to be so defensively sound that the opposition does not manage a single shot on goal. But even in having that as your overarching aim, there are still things to count: which wing does the opposition come down most, how many long crosses into the box from either direction, how many passes are less than three metres, 3 to 6 metres, 6 to 10 metres, 10 to 15 metres, along the ground or in the air, how many headers are won by whom, how many through balls from either half.

Is there an argument that this would add absolutely nothing to the store of knowledge of a coach?

Lastly, much of soccer's tactics are based around relatively stable structures. You want your back 4 to be a flat back 4 at all times - you don't want them roaming around the ground trying out new tricks. You want your defensive midfielder to be in the correct position each time the opposition launches an attack. You don't want your three attacking midfielders simultaneously getting in front of your striker on every attack, leaving gaping holes in the midfield for the opposition to exploit. So there could well be an argument that no amount of stats will ever change this staidness of approach - but I wonder.

I'll tell you another thing I often wonder about - how die the Americans progress so far in world football without a single player in Europe? I know they failed last WC (although they were not completely disgraced), but I wonder what innovations they have brought to soccer that perhaps we do not yet know about. I would be really interested if anyone has any idea on this specific point.

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 20, 2006 2:49 PM

Ta again Vic,

actually I note that the Roar have 217 attempts on goal, 26 clear in first place!!! Mlb only have 144 and only head NZ on 119. (did anyone realise that??)

Another question, probably to do with 'formations', (forgive me my ignorance if this is totally silly)

NZ as an example have only 24% of there attempts from 'strikers', compared to Melb 53% (and comp ave 39%). Does NZ play a lone striker set up or something, or are they just crap at getting it to the guy(s).

Also, NZ have the only RIGHT WINGER who has shots - are they the only team to play a formation with such a player?? (does he exist at all times? is it a position or a role?) - reason I ask is that on the 'Team' page of club sites, this 'right wing' isn't listed for most clubs. [is it just unpopular or very specialist???, are there left wingers?]

Given that the 'position' on paper seems set, but the formations vary - is there anything about the position played on the day? How often is the formation structure changed mid match? When is a striker not a striker?

Posted by: Michael C on November 20, 2006 2:59 PM

Pippu,

very (I assume) good point about the yanks...

...and the Chess analogy.

Yeah, but the Grid Iron folk use it too.

And the reality,

The opposing ranks games are comparable to the early stages of a chess match - but total carnage, bloodshed and 360 degree open warfare, that can happen too in a chess game.

Either style can return a result or a stalemate. And forgive me this, but I see the pawns as being like rugby players (no sir, we can only move one way!!) and the Queen as being like a footy player (can go anywhere wreaking havoc - perhaps an attacking midfielder? - my unnamed game I would picture Chris Judd as a fine queen - in the chess sense only - thought I'd best clarify that, given the reputation of Sydney town).

Posted by: Michael C on November 20, 2006 3:14 PM

Puskas - if you want to avoid the Eintracht Frankfurt game as an example of beautiful football and the genius of Ferenc Puskas try to get a copy of the 1962 Euro Final -Benfica 5 (incl. Eusebio 2) Real Madrid 3 (Puskas 3). That was probably a better game as the teams were better matched

Posted by: Michael on November 20, 2006 3:15 PM

There are various computer programs available to managers in which loads of stats can be brought up, Steve McClaren apparentely is a big fan. This obviously brings up the observation that with all the stats in the world you can still be a crap manager. Having Protools doesn't make you a good musician, having Photoshop and Illustrator don't make you a graphic designer etc. There is still a lot to be said for observation and conventional but if you're smart enough it is good to have access to extra stuff.

There seems to be a bit of Italian football history going on here as well (guilty your honour) so if anyone if vaguely interested in Italian Football (or football or history in general) you should go out and buy Calcio by John Foot (or suggest it as a Christmas present). It is about 500 pages long, and copious footnotes and spans from the very beginning of the game in Italy (English expats) to just before the 06 World Cup and the latest scandals. The wonderfully named Mr Foot has lived in Milan with his Inter supporting (I believe) wife for a number of years. Fantastic book and cannot recommend it highly enough.

Posted by: Vicentin on November 20, 2006 3:33 PM

Calcio

What actually does it mean?

Because isn't that the game that at least dates back to the 1580 rules (and likely beyond), such that it included using hands and feet etc.

Is it an appropriate use of the term if Mr.Foot's book is exclusively about 'soccer'?
(obviously, I could only direct this to an Italian!! - and probably a linguist!!)

Posted by: Michael C on November 20, 2006 3:45 PM

Michael C

It probably does touch on the earlier versions of the game but it has been a few months since I read it and the ol grey matter ain't what it was.

Not a linguist, but the most common use of the word means simply "to kick" as in "ti do un calcio in culo" - what my dad would shout at me while chasing me 'round the backyard after the latest broken window..... I'll kick you up the arse.

Posted by: Vicentin on November 20, 2006 3:55 PM

"Given that the 'position' on paper seems set, but the formations vary - is there anything about the position played on the day? How often is the formation structure changed mid match? When is a striker not a striker? "
Michael C
With modern football there is no quick fix answer to that in fact it suprised me(Checking the following link) as a simple fan who picks up things from obsevation just how complex and varied modern football tactics can be.

I occassionally dabble in the stock market using technical analysis and there is a saying when using too many technical indicators to predict the way a stock is heading its called "analysis paralysis" and sometimes its better to go with your gut feeling about the way a stock is headed.
Of course I cant tell you how you should approach the match on Sunday but I've been bitten a few times by "analysis paralysis" and always done best with my gut feeling about a particular stock.

Posted by: Vic on November 20, 2006 3:56 PM

Beautiful Vicentin!,

thanx for the Monday arvo chuckle.

(I might be able to use that phrase)

Posted by: Michael C on November 20, 2006 3:58 PM

Let's clarify a few things here,
Firstly, most professional sports had far more sportmanship in days gone by & far more 'ulgy elements', not just the 'Joga bonito', exist today. Cricket, Rugby League, Union & AFL. No sport is spared
Secondly, there is a reason why the US always qualifies for the WC, they are in a very weak qualifying group, the 2nd weakest after Oceania if you take away Oceania having to play the 5th rank Sth American team. This is to ensure that the US qualifies everytime.
Thirdly, Americans do play in Europe, they are just not that well known & hence people assume there are no Americans there. Freidel, McBride, Donavan all play in Europe.

The game of football is rich in history & like all things we look back with nostalgia of bygone days with rose tinted glasses.

People on this blog lament of goalscoring in comparsion of the 'Old days', they also talk about the great memories watching Australia play in the seventies in the previous WC, about matches against Pele's santos, Juve, Chile. I too remember these matches, but i was young & impressionable. However, I do remember how it was 1 pass or maybe 2 then boot it up foward & hope. Unlike the Aussies in 06, who played well constructed plays & earned the respect of a footballing world, both for their play & their sportmanship to accept such a horrible defeat.

Posted by: robbos on November 20, 2006 4:00 PM

Calcio has always been interpreted into the english word 'Footabll'.

Posted by: cheech on November 20, 2006 4:01 PM

Vincent: 'This obviously brings up the observation that with all the stats in the world you can still be a crap manager.'

Didn't Ron Smith have a responsibility for using the stats program in his job for FFA before goinf to Perth?

Posted by: Al on November 20, 2006 4:38 PM

More interesting questions coming out of this round:

Has Terry Butcher done enough to stave off the wolves which have stalked his every move over the past couple of months? and, have Sydney really turned the corner?

Has Van Egmond's bubble burst at the Jets?

With 2, 3 and 4 wide open is there a team we can safely safe will make the cut by round 21? I think Adelaide and Sydney will make 2 and 3 but QLD, Mariners and Jets have a shot...Glory I am not so sure of. I think for Newcastle to pose a threat they need to play Rodriguez as a starter, he certainly look s threatening.

I think we have see the last of the coaching musical chairs for this season, the Glory don't have a competitve squad and therefore Ron Smith should be safe into next season.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on November 20, 2006 4:54 PM

Micheal C,

Search on youtube, and u will find a statement Terry Butcher made about union and league. "just cause some idiot picked up the ball and ran with it, then union and league will always be the lil cousin of football."

and tactics and formations can vary through out the game, it doesn't always change when a sub is used.

Posted by: Eddie on November 20, 2006 5:15 PM

Posted by: Jed Petersen at November 20, 2006 04:54 PM

Lots of interesting questions there Jed.
It certainly is becomong tighter again like last season and I believe the upheavals on several fronts wont be repeated for the rest of the season.
After last Saturday I cant predict Farina will be able to turn around the Roar with any confidence for the remainder of the season.
Bleibergs stamp was all over the Roars play the other night.

The bit about the Glory had me thinking that we need more fans from Perth Adelaide Central Coast Newcastle and indeed the Roar on this blog.
Then we could have a much broader debate than we have now about the A-League.
Its a bit Sydney and to a lesser degree Melbourne centric at the moment, understandable I suppose because their both Fairfax newspaper cities.
But their only one quarter of the A-League.

Posted by: Vic on November 20, 2006 5:17 PM

Michael C,

Your analogy on the AFL player Chris Judd loses me, we live in country where we have 4 football codes & problems arises when we start analogies like this. The fact that I knew who Chris Judd was is amazing, but have no idea of what sort of player he is.
The only thing I know about AFL is that Sydney won last year. I remember how I felt sorry for the passionate supporters of other clubs that Sydney, who really don't care about AFL, should win the Grand Final.

NZ's stat speaks for itself, and none of us would be surprised by that, it simply does not generate sufficient chances to be consistently in the hunt (and leaks like a sieve at the back when it eventually falls apart).

But the Vics' stat is an absolute eye-opener. Someone has already mentioned the difference between generating quality chances and speculative ones - but with the Vics we are clearly talking about another level altogether. We clearly have a mixture of patient build up, optimal decision making, efficient use of the football, productive use of space and quality finishing - afterall, patience and setting up shots from good positions will only work where the execution is high quality, where players can retain possession for long spells and where players are working hard to go find good spaces, i.e. where the team and the team structures are functioning.

Let us not all forget that the ref has also helped with this highly efficient conversion rate!! When you've had 10 more penalties than the comp average - that can't hurt!

Where are these stats? - this could open up a whole new level of analysis for me and my many devout readers on this blog!

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 20, 2006 5:26 PM

Michael C - a simple phrase, but use it wisely.

Al, with regards to Ron Smith

Didn't Ron Smith have a responsibility for using the stats program in his job for FFA before goinf to Perth?

I didn't know that. To be honest I don't know much about him and had always heard players say good things about him. As Jed says the Perth squad is pretty poor - hopeless against Sydney the other week I thought without Colosimo, so he probably deserves a run.

""Then there is the legacy of Ron Smith, FFA's then technical manager, who somehow managed to renew the four-year contracts of all the directors of the National Training Centres (NTCs). Some of these people who would be hard pressed to find a job anywhere outside Australia, but they're the people who are largely determining the future of our country's footballing ambitions. These NTCs are anachronistic - modelled on an English youth system. As Craig Foster said in 2005: For 30 years Johnny Warren talked about an English "mafia" in Australian coaching. [The NTCs] are a disgrace. A lot of these guys hide in coaching development jobs. For years we've been playing very poor football. We lack imagination and basically we are just crap. We have had a gutful of this rubbish in this country and as an ex-player it's time to have a circuit-breaker.""

If he is responsible for this then that is a worry!

Posted by: Vicentin on November 20, 2006 5:42 PM

Posted by: Vicentin at November 20, 2006 05:42 PM

Sounds like the usual goings on in the game, I thought it was ll supposed to be stamped out? Nice parting gift though...keeps everyone on-side I suppose, you never know how long a coaching post will last and you'll be looking for work again.

Posted by: Vic at November 20, 2006 05:17 PM

Good point...clearly Ben has to do something about seeing that Flogging catches on in the regional areas as we are missing out on their views which are no less important than our own. I am suprised by how little people are discussing the race for the finals, you're right, you'd think their was only QLD, Sydney and melbourne in the comp...

Posted by: Jed Petersen on November 20, 2006 6:18 PM

I looked up the wikipedia article on formations, it's quite a good summation, including some interesting historical stuff. Those who are familiar with this material will not find too much that is new. Coincidentally, football is the article of the day in the main page of wikipedia today.

The thing that struck me as I read through this article on formations, and something that has occurred to me many times over the decades, is that the names we use to describe these formations, e.g. 4-4-2, etc., can only ever be a very rough and ready indicator of the style of the team in question, especially as it applies in the modern sense.

Many of the formations are only slight variations of others that have gone before them - they rarely represent an earth shattering new strategy (although they may have in times past). I say this because quite often it's about the movement of a player slightly back or forward in what is a dynamic game in any event and in which absolutely no one is expected to stay on the spot at any stage of a game. Thus, we can only ever talk about a loose "shape", which will often take a slightly different form during the course of a game, depending on what has happened or is currently happening, depending on the area a particular player wishes or is capable of covering and the team instructions and discipline demanded by the coach (and of course the skill level of the players themselves).

As an example, we all know that Emerton and Chippers are probably more comfortable operating as right and left wings as they are operating as right and left backs - but in truth, depending on how a particular game is going and how fit and adventurous they are feeling (and what the team instructions are), they slot into something perhaps more akin to a RWB and a LWB, providing direct support to the centre forward, overlapping with the attacking midfielders (when the opportunity arises). Grosso did the same for Italy quite successfully last WC (don't we know it!). So the 4-2-3-1 formation ends up being a very loose description of the overall shape of the team.

Another example that we see in the Socceroos all the time is Culina ostensibly starting along side Grella, but really operating between Grella and in and around the attacking three, linking, picking up loose balls around the box, getting in the odd long range shot, and finding space to help with ball retention in the opposition third. So the formation at times looks more like a 4-1-4-1.

And who can ever forget the last ten minutes of both the Japan and Croatia games, when we looked more like a 3-2-5! (and that is a conservative assessment)

The article itself talks of how a 4-2-4 formation can turn easily into a 2-4-4 formation, which is an inane observation. Having said that, funnily enough it reminds me of the Brazilian team of the 82 WC which seemed to play exclusively 2-4-4. Who can ever forget the the game against Italy when Rossi scored his second goal. The two centre-backs were there alone, sharing the ball amongst themselves, and Rossi pickpocketed them and ran in to blast one past the keeper. Where were the other defenders? They were up the other end trying to score a goal!

One reason why I like our present 4-2-3-1 formation is because it uses our strengths, and that is a world class defensive midfielder in Vinnie, at least three world class attacking midfielders (when Kewell is fit), and a world class centre forward with the capacity to hold onto the ball and link intelligently with the attacking three.

Were the attributes of the team to change at all, it would make sense to try something else. For instance, if we had a ready made experienced RB and LB, it would make sense to try both Emerton and Chippers at RW and LW respectively as part of a 4-4-2, or 4-4-1-1 (and very recently, a blogger here suggested such a formation for our game against Ghana, which I thought was a great idea).

I finish with a very funny story from the World Game show I witnessed around the time of the Montevideo debacle 4 years ago. The panel was discussing an appropriate team structure for the Socceroos. So there was a consensus emerging that it would be great to play with 5 defenders, inluding a libero. It would be great to have a midfield of 4, including two wings. It would be great to have a centre forward supported by a second striker. When Les turned to Johnny Warren for his thoughts, he wryly observed that we need an extra player on the filed!

pippu d'angelo

Posted by: Pippu d'Angelo on November 20, 2006 9:01 PM

I wish to acknowledge my fellow blogers; for their kind words and support.

Pipp, for making me a legend and TT, for a Patron Saint nomination.

Ben Willing.
This will be my last attempt to change Mr C's of his evil ways and bring him into the Football fold.

yeah, the 'attacking midfielder' was the soccer ref, the Chris Judd usage was more that if you happen to come across (or know of him) then he's the prime current example of what I'd mean from an un-named code perspective if I used that term too (he's certainly worth a look, perhaps as Inglis makes League look skilful and athletic).

KB -

Nah, not American - I've disclosed previously my danish parentage - so roll on the Danes clobbering the socceroos (actually, I can't get excited about a friendly, and apart from the royal family, there is no great connection - but Denmark beating Germany in Euro '92 - now that was special!!!).

Stats wise - I just observe the polarised approach to professional sports - US at one end, probably soccer at the other, and the rest in between. I know my FinL who is a NZ Union background does bemoan the AFL hangup on stats. Although, the reality is with 18 a side on the field plus 18 opponents, it's a little hard to rely purely upon observation.

The stats reality though, and also business norm, is to identify the stats that count, the ones that if you do well mean that your team should be giving itself the best chance of performing well (the ability to cut through the stats milieu and get to the important ones) - and I guess that's what I've been curious about re. soccer. [certainly I realise stats are imperfect!!]. Certainly club stats (& player by player) will be different to newspaper published stats.

And yes, in watching a game these days, I do often dispense with the pen and pad, and just enjoy (but then afterwards I'm engaged in a non commercial 'dream team' league with some former work colleagues that suddenly makes stats all important!!! - actually, the EPL have dream team or FANTASY FOOTBALL type comps - what stats and points weightings do they use???)

p.s. Mr KB, it's been enlightening (hopefully both ways), and forgive your neighbour, for I believe that his black and white allegience is a lifelong affliction.

Posted by: Michael C on November 21, 2006 9:28 AM

Eddie,

I gather that Terry Butcher and diplomacy are very unlikely to meet in a well lit room.

(the whole Rugby myth built around Webb Ellis is amazing, and the fact that the big trophy is still named after him is a phenomenal con. And the reality is that ball sports with combinations of hand and foot predate that by some many 100s of years - but for the School of Rugby it's nice to promote their own self importance, and good on them, there is after all no school called "Football" or school called "Soccer" or school called "Basketball" etc etc,

the school rules I like the most though are Hogwarts, now, Football (note the capital 'F' applies across the board) needs some bludgers, beaters and quaffles!!

(lifted from Wikipedia :

Quidditch point system is no worse than the scoring system used in many other games, like tennis or 3D Pinball.

There are over 700 fouls in Quidditch, although ninety percent of them are now impossible due to the ban on using magic wands on other players.)

Posted by: Michael C on November 21, 2006 9:45 AM

(Ben Willing etc )Forgive me for the ref to the un-named code - but the topic is most relevant to all sports/codes re pay tv vs FTA etc in Aust: (and I have restricted it to the 'expired' blog)

from todays Melb Age (RealFooty link) -

article about the current 'impasse' on AFL broadcast, based on 7 & 10 being unable to negotiate an on sell to Foxtel/Fox Sports 3 for 4 games each week. Will ESPN or even Ch.31 play a role?

THe article indicates that of the co-owners of Foxtel, that it is PBL that is blocking an increase on the $45mill offer - not News Ltd.

(is this petty behaviour after Ch.9 lost the FTA rights? is it a cross media ownership conflict of interest?)
"Seven and Ten have already planned a public announcement of their 2007 eight-games-a-round fixture and it is believed the two networks have no intention of going back to the negotiating table with Foxtel at the end of next season should a deal not be reached."

Anyway,

I can't help but wonder, if it is not due to ego and petty politics, then it may be due to sufficient product. It may be due to anticipated extra A-League content in an expanded league, it may be due to an extra game a week in NRL, it may be due to sufficient international content.

although,

if it does go ahead and Foxtel loses AFL, in many households the decision will be made to cease subscription (I won't say most or anything silly like that) - but Foxtel would certainly take a hit. The size of that hit will be very, very important for the future of sports coverage in this country. (at least until everyone sits around their internet connected laser TV monitor!). If Foxtel take too big a hit they will perhaps need to move heaven and earth to regain that content - or, to fill the void.

anyway, it's a worthwhile space to keep watching. There's an apparent deadline of the start of December.

Ben Willing:
No worries. This is an interesting topic with possible ramifications for all sport coverage on TV.

Well when your largest market (Sydney) only cares about one AFL match every week (Swans), and even then the ratings aren't crash hot. As for the remaining games - the ratings would be similar to a New Zealand Knights crowd: Woeful! No wonder they are trying to offload the games. Their advertising dollars would disappear, and possibly send the station/s into bankruptcy.

Posted by: Michael C on November 21, 2006 11:22 AM

Michael,

Do you think this would be a problem if AFL was truely the National sport as suggested by you many times?

Sorry, but couldn't help myself...

Posted by: cheech on November 21, 2006 1:35 PM

Cheech -

I understand you couldn't help yourself, I will respond though, as I think you have a minor misrepresentation/misinterpretation of my prior assertions.

(my main suggestion is that Aust Rules is a game that we as a nation can take ownership of, and that has several redeeming characteristics that are worthy of being proud of when compared to the other codes/sports of the world - instead of those that wish to attack it in a seemingly typical Australian self defeating cultural cringe manner)

more national than any other code at the 'club' level for the time being. But that's always the FTA perplexity of a 'national' club competition and 'national' programming of all matches.

Really, that's what pay tv exists for.

Or, what about digital, we have ABC 2 already, shouldn't there be a Channel 7 (2) on which they could put it - and then the Fed Govt could sell cut price set top boxes...

Posted by: Michael C on November 21, 2006 3:54 PM

(my main suggestion is that Rugby League is a game that we as a nation can take ownership of, and that has several redeeming characteristics that are worthy of being proud of when compared to the other codes/sports of the world - instead of those that wish to attack it in a seemingly typical Australian self defeating cultural cringe manner)