Coach Duff, there is only one answer to your question and I already answered it; that is RCW 9A.16.020 this is the legal defenition of deadly force and situations when it is not unlawful to use, this according to the Revised Code of Washington (RCW). Using any other reason to kill is just likely to get you thrown in prison for murder or manslaughter.

If I made one of you concealed carry bubbas sit down and think a bit about why and how you do carry, than that was the whole idea. What was very interesting was how hotheaded and personal alot of you became and how fast you some of you guys who carry guns escalated things, even if online. Now for reality again. The truth of the matter is that in Washington there are no required training, no tests no nothing for a CCP. It's a matter of going down to the Police Station and being fingerprinted more or less. So a bunch of you have no fucking idea to what you are doing. That is my concern (to folks like Mike T) because you are putting me in danger. Lastly AS I AM you have two different times given me black and white answers to completely grey questions. In fact you are untrained and quite frankly your "There is only one answer" reply is a bit scary and complete and utter bullshit. Typical but scary. This is grey area stuff, not black and white, most of which leads to another human's death. But since none of you even have the foresight into addressing the "when do I pull it out" question, I give AS I AM props for trying. I got these quesitions from a poster on the DeadlyForce in Washington site. A poster on that website threw out the questions:

Hello, I'm a brand new CCP holder and had a few questions regarding the use of deadly force. I have searched google and this forum but to no avail. I'm curious as to what the law states about the use of deadly force; when is it warranted and what are the legal repercussions. I'm living in Washington state (I'm sure laws vary by state).

Hypothetical:

1. It's 3AM and someone forces entry into my home. What can I do legally?

2. I'm at the grocery store and some chump holds checker at gun point demanding money. What can I legally do?

Thank You very much. I'm sorry if this topic has been discussed many times before, if so can someone direct me to an old thread?

Thanks Again!!

The answer another poster sent in was I think well thought out and far more applicable than reciting me back the black and white Washington laws on deadly force. And I bet a whole bunch of us flyfishing types agree It goes like this:

Your looking for black and white answers to very gray questions.
First, it's not "what can I do legally?" but rather what are my options.
If someone is in your home who is not an invited guest, then why are they there? Is it one of your kids' friends looking for a couch to crash on after a few too many brews? Is it old man withers who thinks he still lives there? Is it a thief looking for a quick item to grab? Is this an armed robbery? The answer to your first question ranges from "nothing" to "open fire". Personally, I own nothing in my house that is worth a human life; Period. I will not stand before a jury or my creator and say "that laptop was worth more than the life of a stranger".
If however, this is someone armed, or threatening to myself, wife or kids then all bets are off, as in "Sow bear protecting cubs".
Your second question is likewise not open to a yes or no answer. Can you draw down on a robber? What is the setup? Did you just walk up to the checkout and see the cashier get bent over the counter and the gun getting the hammer thumbed back while the muzzle is buried in the nape of her neck? Or, you see someone pull a gun and demand cash and acting ready to bolt for the door as soon as the green hit's his hand. And, just to mix things up. How many are they? Is there a good backstop that will stop your missed or pass-through shot? Is the sidewalk busy with innocent people? Your gun may end up causing deaths that would never have occurred if you just stood back and take notes for the police. Rather than having a "Well done" you may end up getting a manslaughter charge or sued in a wrongful death case.
Here's the mindset we all need to have. It's not "when can I cap this guy?" but "how can I avoid trouble and never have to take this gun out, or take a human life?"
Anytime you pull a gun to engage trouble your on extremely thin ice, over a very swift river. Professionally trained LEO's loose their jobs and even do jail time every year for getting too far out over that thin ice. I'll only go there if there is absolutely no other way out.

Gos

Now if one of you (Steely Dan is the exception, he PMd me!) would have even approached an answer like this one, we all would have known you have a good concept and idea of why you are carrying a gun flyfishing. But NONE of you did and once again, it seems to lend to the idea that you are carrying for every reason but the right ones. So go ahead carry your asses off, it's a right a bunch of us have fought our asses off so you can. But it makes no sense flyfishing and a majority of you can't justify why you do. A bunch of you carry a concealed loaded firearm while FLYFISHING because it gives you a false sense of bravado and security. It's ridiculous. Each to his own and I am done with this subject.

This thread is a great read and I know that a few of you get pretty up set when someone asks "why". Sooooo
I think I'm going to start carrying (a gun) when I go fish out in the desert because there are rattlesnakes at RF and most places that I fish.
Then it all comes down to can I draw my pistol and shoot that snake before it bites me?
Not unless I see it coming first. Sooooo now my mind has changed again why carry (a gun) for the snakes when I'll just get bit anyway and if I see it coming I'll get out of the way or use my rod or something else the distract the snake.
Now the other reason the carry a gun to protect yourself from people that would do you harm. Again my mind is changed to using my rod or my hand to hand training.
Again it all comes down to (if you can see them coming or not)
If you have to fish in places that you feel you could lose your life to people, you better be well trained the fine arts of hand to hand combat.
Now if it just makes you feel better to have your firearm close at hand no matter where you go I believe you should carry it like a professional out in the open in a holster.
A few threads back someone brought up (around the camp fire and beers or soft drinks for the young at heart).
Please let me buy the first round.
Great read guys, even some of the name calling makes for good some good laughs.

If I made one of you concealed carry bubbas sit down and think a bit about why and how you do carry, than that was the whole idea. What was very interesting was how hotheaded and personal alot of you became and how fast you some of you guys who carry guns escalated things, even if online. Now for reality again. The truth of the matter is that in Washington there are no required training, no tests no nothing for a CCP. It's a matter of going down to the Police Station and being fingerprinted more or less. So a bunch of you have no fucking idea to what you are doing. That is my concern (to folks like Mike T) because you are putting me in danger. Lastly AS I AM you have two different times given me black and white answers to completely grey questions. A grey that leads to another human's death. I got this answer from the DeadlyForce in Washington site. A poster threw out the questions:
Hello, I'm a brand new CCP holder and had a few questions regarding the use of deadly force. I have searched google and this forum but to no avail. I'm curious as to what the law states about the use of deadly force; when is it warranted and what are the legal repercussions. I'm living in Washington state (I'm sure laws vary by state).

Hypothetical:

1. It's 3AM and someone forces entry into my home. What can I do legally?

2. I'm at the grocery store and some chump holds checker at gun point demanding money. What can I legally do?

Thank You very much. I'm sorry if this topic has been discussed many times before, if so can someone direct me to an old thread?

Thanks Again!!

The answer another poster sent in was I think well thought out and far more applicable than reciting me back the black and white Washington laws on deadly force. And I bet a whole bunch of us flyfishing types agree It goes like this:

Your looking for black and white answers to very gray questions.
First, it's not "what can I do legally?" but rather what are my options.
If someone is in your home who is not an invited guest, then why are they there? Is it one of your kids' friends looking for a couch to crash on after a few too many brews? Is it old man withers who thinks he still lives there? Is it a thief looking for a quick item to grab? Is this an armed robbery? The answer to your first question ranges from "nothing" to "open fire". Personally, I own nothing in my house that is worth a human life; Period. I will not stand before a jury or my creator and say "that laptop was worth more than the life of a stranger".
If however, this is someone armed, or threatening to myself, wife or kids then all bets are off, as in "Sow bear protecting cubs".
Your second question is likewise not open to a yes or no answer. Can you draw down on a robber? What is the setup? Did you just walk up to the checkout and see the cashier get bent over the counter and the gun getting the hammer thumbed back while the muzzle is buried in the nape of her neck? Or, you see someone pull a gun and demand cash and acting ready to bolt for the door as soon as the green hit's his hand. And, just to mix things up. How many are they? Is there a good backstop that will stop your missed or pass-through shot? Is the sidewalk busy with innocent people? Your gun may end up causing deaths that would never have occurred if you just stood back and take notes for the police. Rather than having a "Well done" you may end up getting a manslaughter charge or sued in a wrongful death case.
Here's the mindset we all need to have. It's not "when can I cap this guy?" but "how can I avoid trouble and never have to take this gun out, or take a human life?"
Anytime you pull a gun to engage trouble your on extremely thin ice, over a very swift river. Professionally trained LEO's loose their jobs and even do jail time every year for getting too far out over that thin ice. I'll only go there if there is absolutely no other way out.

Gos

Now if one of you (Steely Dan is the exception, he PMd me!) would have even approached an answer like this one, we all would have known you have a good concept and idea of why you are carrying a gun flyfishing. But NONE of you did and once again, it seems to lend to the idea that you are carrying for every reason but the right ones. So go ahead carry your asses off, it's a right a bunch of us have fought our asses off so you can. But it makes no sense flyfishing and none of you can justify why you do. It's ridiculous. Each to his own.

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Coach Duff, I gave the legal definitions for a reason, just because the answer was delivered to you in a method that is different than what you wanted, doesn't mean it is wrong. Broken down, the not unlawful use of deadly force means, in defense of self or another against an imminent threat against bodily harm or life. And yes my answer is black and white, which is because I don’t see it as a gray area. There is murder and there is self defense, or defense of another. Coach Duff, if you had read through my other posts (even the ones not addressed to you) you would have seen that I already stated that even though the situation may arise when it is legal to use deadly force, it is still more desirable to avoid its use. And I would appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth; I never once stated “when can I cap this guy?” Just because I gave you a legal definition does not mean I’m looking for a legal reason to “cap” someone.

The last time I checked freedom of speech had a place in our country also. And if you don't book a trip with me because I happened to have seen a whole lot of the effects of bullets and have shitloads of combat handgun training and also know first hand that the average untrained (that's most of you, shooting at the range is not the training you need to change muscle memory and in effect become proficient with a handgun, proper unholstering, weapons retention, magazine changes, offhand, ect) person actually is putting THEMSELVES in danger carrying, not the bad guy then have a great day with someone else. I fought for those amendments you tried to dust off and throw around. Next you'll call my 25 months in combat zones in spec ops un American too right? No that's the NRA approach, to accuse responsible minded Americans who support personal gun ownership but believe in doing it the right way with some checks, balances and training. Some reality in effect. No my friend, nice try. I am simply saying that if you are not trained and ready, carrying a handgun especially a 9MM does nothing but put you in danger and give you the bullshit false confidence that will actually get you killed. Carrying a gun is your decision, a decision I support wholeheartedly if you feel you need to. I'm just hoping that you understand the 21 foot rule, ballistics, muscle memory, weapons retention, legal repurcussions, you own psyche, you own insecurities, the immediate and perceived threats (much of which is urban legand among anglers), how much your skills will be diminished under duress, what you will do if it goes to the ground (which is might) and lastly what your ROEs or Rules of Engagement will be in each terrain and or situation and do they fit the law? Not insulting you in any way, just throwing out some reality. So if that costs me a "trip" with you then so be it. I think most responsible, well trained, gun loving Americans feel the same way. It is a serious business and really serious when you draw that weapon. Lives are changed forever on both ends of that barrell. Everything better be justified and right. And Herl, that was funny as hell. Tight lines The Coach
Coach

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Word, Coach. My dad put food on the table from income gained from his gun shop, and he was a deputy sheriff, certified armorer, NRA certified instructor, etc. In fact, he conducts firearms and defense classes now in his retired time. We had plenty of family friends that were law enforcement folks and/or had substantial military training.

I have my share of firearms, and would hope that I would be able to use them effetively if the unfortunate situation ever occurred where they were needed. Coach echoes everything I've heard from our law enforcement friends and my dad. There are only 2 losers in an altercation involving a deadly weapon. However, with that said, I'd rather be the person behind the firearm and not being shot.

What's that old saying "Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it". I haven't (yet) run in to a circumstance where a firearm or other weapon was needed or its need imminent; however, it only takes once.

The inconvenience of packing and the procrastination of finding that easily packable firearm keeps me from toting one around. However, it's likely going to happen.

glad it went the other way david. you obviously now have a sense of speed over ground, amazing, eh? the reason the 12 ga is favored is what you attempting to do is break bone. shoulder is usually the first target, from any angle, if they hit the dirt, you will win the contest. your 45 would have been totally worthless along with any other handgun folks would bring along...

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No way man, 50 cal desert eagle. It'll drop a brown bear no problem. It's no 12 ga jacketed sabot pumper but it will drop one. a 44 mag in the hands of the right person will as well, but that ain't me.

If I made one of you concealed carry bubbas sit down and think a bit about why and how you do carry, than that was the whole idea. What was very interesting was how hotheaded and personal alot of you became and how fast you some of you guys who carry guns escalated things, even if online. Now for reality again. The truth of the matter is that in Washington there are no required training, no tests no nothing for a CCP. It's a matter of going down to the Police Station and being fingerprinted more or less. So a bunch of you have no fucking idea to what you are doing. That is my concern (to folks like Mike T) because you are putting me in danger. Lastly AS I AM you have two different times given me black and white answers to completely grey questions. In fact you are untrained and quite frankly your "There is only one answer" reply is a bit scary and complete and utter bullshit. Typical but scary. This is grey area stuff, not black and white, most of which leads to another human's death. But since none of you even have the foresight into addressing the "when do I pull it out" question, I give AS I AM props for trying. I got these quesitions from a poster on the DeadlyForce in Washington site. A poster on that website threw out the questions:

Hello, I'm a brand new CCP holder and had a few questions regarding the use of deadly force. I have searched google and this forum but to no avail. I'm curious as to what the law states about the use of deadly force; when is it warranted and what are the legal repercussions. I'm living in Washington state (I'm sure laws vary by state).

Hypothetical:

1. It's 3AM and someone forces entry into my home. What can I do legally?

2. I'm at the grocery store and some chump holds checker at gun point demanding money. What can I legally do?

Thank You very much. I'm sorry if this topic has been discussed many times before, if so can someone direct me to an old thread?

Thanks Again!!

The answer another poster sent in was I think well thought out and far more applicable than reciting me back the black and white Washington laws on deadly force. And I bet a whole bunch of us flyfishing types agree It goes like this:

Your looking for black and white answers to very gray questions.
First, it's not "what can I do legally?" but rather what are my options.
If someone is in your home who is not an invited guest, then why are they there? Is it one of your kids' friends looking for a couch to crash on after a few too many brews? Is it old man withers who thinks he still lives there? Is it a thief looking for a quick item to grab? Is this an armed robbery? The answer to your first question ranges from "nothing" to "open fire". Personally, I own nothing in my house that is worth a human life; Period. I will not stand before a jury or my creator and say "that laptop was worth more than the life of a stranger".
If however, this is someone armed, or threatening to myself, wife or kids then all bets are off, as in "Sow bear protecting cubs".
Your second question is likewise not open to a yes or no answer. Can you draw down on a robber? What is the setup? Did you just walk up to the checkout and see the cashier get bent over the counter and the gun getting the hammer thumbed back while the muzzle is buried in the nape of her neck? Or, you see someone pull a gun and demand cash and acting ready to bolt for the door as soon as the green hit's his hand. And, just to mix things up. How many are they? Is there a good backstop that will stop your missed or pass-through shot? Is the sidewalk busy with innocent people? Your gun may end up causing deaths that would never have occurred if you just stood back and take notes for the police. Rather than having a "Well done" you may end up getting a manslaughter charge or sued in a wrongful death case.
Here's the mindset we all need to have. It's not "when can I cap this guy?" but "how can I avoid trouble and never have to take this gun out, or take a human life?"
Anytime you pull a gun to engage trouble your on extremely thin ice, over a very swift river. Professionally trained LEO's loose their jobs and even do jail time every year for getting too far out over that thin ice. I'll only go there if there is absolutely no other way out.

Gos

Now if one of you (Steely Dan is the exception, he PMd me!) would have even approached an answer like this one, we all would have known you have a good concept and idea of why you are carrying a gun flyfishing. But NONE of you did and once again, it seems to lend to the idea that you are carrying for every reason but the right ones. So go ahead carry your asses off, it's a right a bunch of us have fought our asses off so you can. But it makes no sense flyfishing and a majority of you can't justify why you do. A bunch of you carry a concealed loaded firearm while FLYFISHING because it gives you a false sense of bravado and security. It's ridiculous. Each to his own and I am done with this subject.

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Maybe we can have the second amendment revised to read the following:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people approved by the Duffer to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Ahhhhhh the anger of being having to actually show some sort of competence, good reason and good intentions of carrying around a loaded weapon in your pants. You are one of those guys who fought the backround check aren't you? Keep it coming gun carrying while flyfishing dudes, it's getting good. So Mike T, we know you are bit testy about letting others know you are packing that weapon of steel and fire under what circumstances do you pull it out WHILE FLYFISHING? That was the question. Simple it seems.

And Galco was good enough to be used by Tier 1 Assets (you know all about Damneck and Bragg right Mike T?) who believe it or not know more about holsters and whose usage of is about 5000 times (on an average day) the tempo yours will ever be and to them is a direct life support system.

PS Steely Dan and me buried the hatchet. Once the BS was sifted through we both realized that the one common ground we both have is that you had better be well trained, and know that your ROEs have both been well thought out and rehearsed before you ever strap that concealed pistol on. If not yes to all of the above all you have done is put everyone in danger around you.

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The question asked by Peter Poncho was "how to carry" that's the question I've been focusing on. But I'll play your game for a moment. I would only present a gun, or other weapon, as a last resort to defend myself or family member from a life altering or threatening injury at the hands of an assailant or predator. I firmly believe the first step to effective self defense is awareness of your surroundings and avoidance of real threats. The final step, when all else has failed, is the presentation and potential use of a weapon. I've gone through training and this is the main point that consistently comes through. I fully realize that once the weapon is drawn and used there are no winners only survivors.

Re. Galco holsters. I stand by what I said, I've seen them after thousands of presentations from shooters and they do lose some of their ability to retain a weapon. Military procurement many times means buying from the lowest bidder. I'm sure that Sparks or the other holster makers I named could not have competed for, or filled a contact as they are all small operations.

Re my knowing what Damneck or Bragg are, I know Bragg is an Army base and home of Rangers and Special Forces. I have no idea what or where Damneck is. I've not made any claims to be in or retired from the military so I don't know where you're going with this. The Rangers and Spec Forces guys who've shot in matches I've run have almost always used their drop leg Safariland kydex holsters. I've handles some Vietnam era and earlier holsters for 1911's and found them to be sub-par in terms of weapon retention and ease of draw.

Re my fighting background checks. Nope not me. The law in WA is well settled re the state's right to require that.

I shoot for fun and to learn more about my abilities, I don't delude myself by thinking IDPA & IPSC are training, they're games. For some time I shot about 1,500 rounds of 45acp & 300 to 500 rounds of .223 a month. I train outside of that as I recognize the seriousness & difficulty of effectively handling firearms.

You don't know me and I don't appreciate your making assumptions as to my character or motivations here. I haven't done that to you. As far as I'm concerned when I've disagreed with you I've done so plainly, but courteously. You obviously have experience that far exceeds others here when it comes to the use of arms. Your penchant for personal attacks diminishes the benefit that knowledge could have for those who will carry whether you approve of it or not.

No way man, 50 cal desert eagle. It'll drop a brown bear no problem. It's no 12 ga jacketed sabot pumper but it will drop one. a 44 mag in the hands of the right person will as well, but that ain't me.

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Sorry but there is not a pistol made that will stop a charging Brownie or Grizzly with no problem. The trouble with Bears, as I see it, is that most people will not wait long enough. With a pistol or a shotty you have to wait until they are inside 10 feet to have your best chance. I said chance, nothing is certain. By cutting loose at 25 feet you had better be damned good. Most people shoot for centre of mass, as in a person, but that is absolutely NOT the way to try and turn a charging animal.

With a shotty you can go for a shoulder, depending on what type of projectile you are using, and depending on the angle. Bears do not stand straight up like on Gentle Ben but charge on all fours and run over the object. They do not try and bite you until you are knocked over and on the ground. With a pistol your only hope is a CNS shot to the Brain or to the back. You can shoot one in the Heart but you will be Dead before the Bear and that is not the object. Unless you believe in Pyrrhic victories. You need to understand anatomy and you need to be close.

Me, I would try to put it right on the nose and hope I hit the Brain or, if missed, the backbone in the neck.

A .44 is marginal in this instance. A Desert Eagle too heavy and awkward and too many things can go wrong with them. If you must use a pistol a .500S&W is your best bet with hard cast bullets.

All this is of course IMHO and submitted as such.

PS I still don't understand what is wrong with your Girl Friend or Wife nick naming you Steely Dan? :rofl:

PSS Steely Dan was named after a woman's vibrator. Just thought you'd like to know that.

You guys do realize, a large percentage of the people claiming self defence in a shoot, go to jail. just pointing a gun may be determined to be aggravated assault. it all depends on the prosecutor and his or her value system, they determine if you are going to be prosecuted or not, not the officer on the scene, last i checked prosecutorial administrators are elected officials, so if you pull it, you better be right, or jail is where you will sit. you better be able to demonstrate and articulate your life or the life of another, was at risk.

You guys do realize, a large percentage of the people claiming self defence in a shoot, go to jail.

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You know, there was a time in my life when I tried hard to substantiate that claim, but so far it's just panned out to be empty rhetoric. I'd be open to anyone willing to share numbers and data with sources (preferably non-gun/anti lobby sources). Until then, well you know what they say about opinions...