No doubt Vettel has proved this season that he can overtake. Webber at Spa bus chicane for example.

But quality over quantity And that's gotta be Kimi. His move on Schumacher in Spa or again on Schumacher in Brazil was legendary. Also in Japan at the pit exit, even though he lost the battle to Lewis, he showed great skills.

It is not that useful for RBR in particular, though, since usually they can barely keep up with other top cars in the DRS zones with the DRS open on the RB8 and closed on the opponent's car. Even with the Abu Dhabi "overtaking optimized" setup, the top speed was only about as good as that of the Ferrari on its normal setup.

nope just means he had the faster car/ faster driver & car combos failed to finish/ had technical issues/ the team messed up see lewis hamilton's race history this year.see your sig back at youor perhaps you should see what others here think about who the best overtaker is http://forums.autosp...w...178332&st=0prepair to be upset

nope just means he had the faster car/ faster driver & car combos failed to finish/ had technical issues/ the team messed up see lewis hamilton's race history this year.see your sig back at youor perhaps you should see what others here think about who the best overtaker is http://forums.autosp...w...178332&st=0prepair to be upset

let's se what you wrote there:"he can't pass even in the quickest car will he prove he can pass or prove its all about the speed of the car."general consensus is that mclaren was the quickest car out there, so he could pass even without the quickest car. I think with that he proved that he can pass, and that it is not about the speed of the car (which, bitw is constantly one of the worst in straight line speed, which is essential for overtaking)

and prepare to be upset, I voted Kimi in that poll, me saying Vettel can overtake pretty well doesn't equal me saying Vettel is the best at overtaking.

I'm happy I kept that in my sig, it seems it caused an uncomfortable moment for you

Kimi ranks indisputed #1 in overtaking (imo). But Seb had to do the most this year - and he did a stellar job at it. Anyone who says overtaking backmarkers is easy forgets that some of them drive with a stick up their rear - ignoring blue flags and the like and making it overall quite difficult to pass when it suits them. Also, mid-gridders can be difficult to get by (i.e., Senna, Perez, Maldonado, Hulkenberg, Kobayashi) and often make contact.

That is why many hold their breath when the top drivers are making their way up the grid. Later of course you start to run into the impossible to pass front runners and that is more celebrated action. But don't dismiss those in the back because they travel with their own set of problems.

Only 60, I had 55 on my ticker before Brazil (another 25 there)
Even taking out the ones on the backmarkers and STRs, still plenty.
The first few laps on Sunday were mega, he'd taken 23 cars in the first 16 laps twice coming through the field

nope just means he had the faster car/ faster driver & car combos failed to finish/ had technical issues/ the team messed up see lewis hamilton's race history this year.see your sig back at youor perhaps you should see what others here think about who the best overtaker is http://forums.autosp...w...178332&st=0prepair to be upset

You do know that every team apart from HRT is faster than Red Bull in the speed trap, right? Like even Marussia

Ok cool and that would be meaningful except for the those bendy things at the end of the straights. Because the Red Bull is close to the best through those bits.

They have more downforce so better acceleration out of corners. Still Marussia/HRT beat em at the end of a straight. Gee, I wonder why it was hard for Vettel to overtake, most of the times being on different compounds to the others?

Ah the sadness brigade is out again, lets talk down everything Vettel does.
Sure there were some easy overtakes but also the great ones like on button in Abu Dhabi ( might have saved his wdc) or the ones in the bus stop in spa.

Up to Brazil 2012, the total number of 'equal' 'top car' overtakes (tires no more than 5 laps fresher):Sebastian Vettel: 11 (out of 23 total; 48%)Lewis Hamilton: 11 (out of 21 total; 52%)Fernando Alonso: 7 (out of 17 total; 41%)

Interesting numbers. But Vettel still had the car that made it so easy for him to sail past his opponents with DRS in places like Spa, Abu Dhabi and Interlagos while Alonso and Hamilton always had to wait for the most difficult overtaking spots like the Bus stop to even have chance of overtaking.;)

You do know that every team apart from HRT is faster than Red Bull in the speed trap, right? Like even Marussia

top speed is not the be all and end all of most racing sometimes being able to use a slightly lower top speed but on more of the track (quicker acceleration via lower gearing) or sacrificing top end for grip so you can take corners quicker can pay big time.But i would expect everyone on here to know that

Up to Brazil 2012, the total number of 'equal' 'top car' overtakes (tires no more than 5 laps fresher):Sebastian Vettel: 11 (out of 23 total; 48%)Lewis Hamilton: 11 (out of 21 total; 52%)Fernando Alonso: 7 (out of 17 total; 41%)

Actually I calculated also a bit in 2010 and it turned out that on a percentage base, 'overtakable' cars he was excellent. His problem was/is threefold. His usually great Q3 in a car optimized for speed over a single lap puts him robs him the chance to overtake midfield or other top cars. However even in 2010 he was apart from some occasion in which the car's lack of topspeed and the track type had a big impact he was one of the finest and quickest overtaker in the business.

It is obvious that he has increasingly refined his art and there is noboday which does so many great outside passes, which is of course in part a reflection of the cars strenght. It is quite funny that other drivers, with worse Q3s and Q2s and cars with great race pace better suited at the standard type of overtakes get more credit for it. It just seems stupid but the post on this forum quite often are. Kimi is a fine overtaker but also he could only operate in the bounderies set up by his car which made for example an 'easy' DRS drive-by impossible in Korea. Dicey elements like a slippery surface in Sao Paolo suit Seb very much, and things like KERS are very helpful because they throw another thing into the mix and allow his intelligent racecraft to shine like in Spa.

Look, I think Vettel is fantastic, arguably the best in the sport at the moment, and thoroughly deserving of his three titles. But I feel my point is valid - drivers shouldn't be letting others through, and the fact that Red Bull effectively have two teams is, in my opinion, utter nonsense.

@Coops: I actually agree with your point about TR. Of course this is nothing new in the sense that teams like Ferrari had often a big influence on others but it is not an ideal situation. One might argue that it is good that TR had a relative uncompetitive car which allowed them only to have a minimal impact on the WDC race but it is still there. On the other hand we would potentially lose two seats reserved for young drivers. In this context they are the most important team in F1.