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#438 – The Shameless Business Partnership With Michelle And Zara/

#438 – The Shameless Business Partnership With Michelle And Zara/

August 28, 2019

Michelle Andrews and Zara McDonald from the Shameless podcast are back!

Since we last caught up with Michelle and Zara, they’ve launched two new awesome podcasts, Love Etc and She’s On The Money. They’re also catching up and interviewing some amazing people through their In Conversation episodes every single week!

We chat about when to celebrate wins, switching off, being thoughtful in what you put out, and the learnings from In Conversations.

On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show we discuss:

– Committing to Shameless’ vision long term
– When to celebrate wins
– The creative process and how you feel about your work
– Switching off
– The challenges of starting
– Social media, narcissism and ego
– Being thoughtful in what you put out
– Learnings from In Conversations
– Friendship circles and work
– Nostalgia

0:03
It's a daily Talk Show Episode 438. It actually happens every single time with the true podcast professionals, Michelle Andrews and Zara McDonald,

0:15
what we call ourselves that

0:18
we're over here now that we

0:19
feel like every time we see you guys, you've had a glow up in your setup every single time. There's like a new technology that you're using. And this is beyond anything that's our and I can imagine doing when

0:31
we say this is we have more blow ups and blow up. From the outside. They look like oh, yeah, internally blow up. We've actually had less blow ups, haven't we?

0:40
Yeah, I had because you've been meditating. Tommy?

0:43
Yeah. I mean, that helps, too. But I think when we say 309, your last on we're in a different studio. We were hot Joshua sweaty, you

0:53
know, it was extremely I mean, it would, it would have been February or something. I feel like the weather would have just we didn't have Khan was the

1:00
last time we were talking about you girls and people seeing and calling out that you girls having a fucking yellow teeth. Oh,

1:08
my God, they were because you know what had happened. Tsar had just quit her full time job. And I think there was probably a tiny kernel of truth to some of that commentary, because we were working full time together and literally living on top of each other half the time in a non sexual way. Yeah, I don't know. Probably were clashing it not a lot. Tiny, tiny, tiny bit, because we were just figuring it out. It was the very beginning. It was like the infancy media. So I think it took us a while to actually navigate that and figure out how to work together and how to pick up on each other's cues that maybe we need some time apart.

1:42
Only with hindsight that we've been able to say that, like we weren't able to say that at the time. I think once we found our stride, we were looking back on that time thinking maybe we were a bit shorter with each other than we needed to be. But we didn't know that. That's what we were doing at the

1:55
time. I think the shoots do rings at a great level between YouTube. Like a listen, I love I know not getting a good quality. You know, you just you give them shit like Sure, yeah,

2:07
we've had a really strong friendship ever since we met but and it was never like it was in jeopardy. When's our first one full time with this stuff with me. But I think at the moment, we found a really good balance of working together working apart and kind of being really brutally honest with each other when we need some space, or we just need to go for a run or go to the gym. I think we're really good at that at the moment. Yeah,

2:26
I would agree. Yeah. Do you have specific rituals as a way to make sure that things stay on track?

2:30
Not really, I don't think so. I think we're pretty good at I mean, we're doing a bunch of work together, but also separately at the moment. So all the work we're doing is together, but some of it we can do ourselves at home. And I think it's been kind of nice, being able to like go into our own little caves and being able to do that. But to be honest, if it gets to the middle of a day, and we're both like God, it's quite intense. Just working with one other person. Hey, I'm just going to work from my space today. Like it's basically just making that call.

2:54
A lots happened since we last saw I mean, Mr. Nice. Evans had two divorces. He's onto his third marriage. Congratulations. Yeah, yeah. He's found love. La, los let you know,

3:09
we get you on a bumper podcast.

3:11
True. It says we never told you this. We actually had an email from a listener who I think you would do coming back and forth. And she thought she blew it. So she emailed us asking for love advice of how she could get back into books. And we just didn't reply, because like, you know what, we've put ourselves enough to Mr. 97? We don't know. Do we crack

3:30
united seven? And he's actually committed to the boys. He's like, I'm just podcasters. not working. I'm happy with that might. Yeah.

3:42
Yeah, we've committed to 10 years of doing the podcast, is that being something that you guys have talked about? where it's like, we are going to commit to X amount of time?

3:50
No, to be honest, we get asked this a lot. Um, we did an interview a couple of weeks ago with a journalist. And she was like, so what's the big picture plan? And I think every time someone asks us that we don't actually are I definitely see us doing the podcast, 10 years down the track. But I think given we've worked in digital media, since we left University, we figured out that this the industry changes so quickly, and it evolves all the time, and the metamorphosis of media and what type of content we're all consuming changes. And I feel like if we had something in the future, really long term, we would kind of get tunnel vision. So we want to have our periphery open and be looking around to be open to moving and kind of shape shifting, because

4:32
because I think the other half is lockdown conversations when we're being interviewed. Like we might sit there and they're like, oh, what's a long term plan? I don't know. I've never spoken to you about it. But this is what I think. And then we walk off and we never have the conversation. Again, I think there is like an implicit understanding that this is a very, very long term thing. And I think we're quite flexible with what that looks like. But with regards to some sort of timeline, there's nothing that

4:56
I think that's good. I think like, that's all you can sort of do even though we I think I'm forced the me, is

5:03
it the alternative perspective to that is, I'm sure yours is far more valid, or no, no, I because I've been in that place of not really having I want to be fluid, and you know, all of that. But I think when someone asked you the question and answer, it can be better than sort of wishy washy,

5:20
bullshit answer. I mean, I guess that's what we've built our whole lives. Like a lot of bullshit answers that then we aren't necessarily married to if it doesn't work out?

5:31
Well, we both know it was super committed to it. I think that's the main thing. I think we both know that shameless podcast will probably live on in some form, whatever that form is, for decades. But as far as podcasting, the 10 years, I probably but I

5:45
mean, I would like to I really enjoy the job. And if the markets still there, and the audience is still there. Absolutely.

5:50
I guess that it's when someone asks you, what do you do? And, you know, it's like having a solid rock solid answer. It either makes you at like a psycho because you just like, you know, you really reverse engineering, you know, in 10 years, you know that, you know, blah, blah. Anyway, I think coming up with it. And I've always it's all about audience, right? Who are you speaking to? Yeah, to even have a good answer for it. Because if we're talking to a young kid and talking 10 years about doing this podcast, he won't really care. But I think it cements you something but you've had a bunch of success since we last saw you love, etc. She's on the money. How you have how you celebrating?

6:27
We're not probably not enough. And this is something I'm glad you actually brought that up. We some of the people we met when we did Mecca land with Gemma, let's be co hosted with her. In May. Some of the really successful people we came across told us like celebrate the small wins and make sure you celebrate them. Well. Otherwise, they pass you by and you completely forget about him was Episode 100.

6:48
Yeah, we missed Episode 100. I think we did celebrate something earlier this year cover but what it was, we were at Mecca land and we had won an award at the Australian podcast award and jewels. One was there. And he is like celebrity fact Tanner and he's created this amazing fact Tam brand called Allah paradise was just like a machine in the industry. And he literally sat us down over drinks and was like, if you don't go out for dinner, after you've won this award, I will kill you. I mean, like, I don't think he was going to kill us because he lives in London. But we thought, okay, we actually really should do this, because he said, You don't seem to be celebrating anything. And you need to really celebrate these wins. So we went out for dinner. After that we haven't done anything since and I think we should it's the year has been a bit of a blur, though. I think every time something happens, and we say to each other, hey, that's like quite a good job. We then say, okay, what's next?

7:33
There is one deal that we're waiting for the dotted line to be signed. And once that happens, we already have like a plan to now that we're going to go away without partners and celebrate together. Yeah, looking forward to that. But there's so many things like really big picture plans where it takes so long to actually come into action that by the time it does get signed off for it is approved, it feels like it's been months in the making anyway. So it's kind of a weird,

8:00
and I think my mental processes, probably very unhealthy around it. But I also don't want to get ahead of ourselves too quickly. Like I want to keep my head down and I want to keep our heads down and doing the work. And I want the work to be the focus. I don't want to keep looking at being like how amazing is that? I want to keep it in the work.

8:14
What's the fine line? Because it can be productive and distracted? distracted? Yeah,

8:19
well, it's a marathon. Like when are you meant to celebrate a marathon? And if you're celebrating halfway through? You slowing down as you put me right?

8:31
This makes no sense. But I also think you stop celebrating, it's like I don't want us to rest on our laurels. Because I don't think that we're at the point that we want to be at. Yeah. And that's not to say you shouldn't celebrate little winds along the way we should pat ourselves on the back. Because I don't want us to burn out or not feel like we appreciate ourselves enough. But I think it's probably not a bad thing. Because you constantly are showing up. So it's not like you've done something huge. And then it'd be like making documentary and celebrating then you got nothing to work on. Yeah, worked on it for two years. That would be hard. Because then you like after the five minutes thing, but when you actually have to release a podcast on Monday and Thursday, and you know, you've got the other gals releasing podcast. And that that's when you've really got to it makes you then you showing up it's like to work with.

9:16
Yeah, I know, maybe you're right, should be gone.

9:19
All right.

9:24
How do you work out whether you like so weekends, for instance? When are you working on weekends, when you're not working on weekends?

9:31
To be honest, I probably cross the line a little too much. And Darren is good at telling me and often I will look at text conversation and say that there's a whole lot of blue bubbles and not many grey bubbles in response. I often spam her. I think it's tricky, right? And you guys would know this, like digital media, especially, I'm kind of controlling social media for shameless, and I'm kind of controlling the community side and Tsar controls, like logistics and planning. And she's really, really talented at that stuff. So when my head is constantly in the now of Instagram, and Facebook and all that type of stuff, I am probably thinking about things and sending them her away when she was very meticulous with how you planned and forward plan. I

10:11
mean, I don't even I don't think I even tell you that I'm not engaging in the conversation. It just is it is truly if I'm out and I, I'm pretty meticulous about my time. And I think if I'm with my friends, or I'm with my family, I want to be that it's hard at the moment because work tends to infiltrate everything. And it can I think the nature of how we communicate needs work in terms of not how we physically communicate with the platform we do. So I mean, we're on a message all the time, which is so not healthy. If I'm going between social conversations and work conversations literally feels like all you're doing is working. We work through the weekend, I would say pretty confidently. I mean, it's a weird kind of work because you're in the Facebook group, or you're on Instagram, and you're doing a bunch of different stuff. And I think you're working when you don't realise you're working.

10:54
And we decided to release the podcast every Monday and every Monday's podcast is topical. So it needs needs to be done on the weekend. So we're often recording on the weekend and editing on a Sunday night. So by virtue of that we have to be working,

11:06
you've had a lot of success with the apple podcast charts, has the relationship change with the charts and how you view them because we had a tiny bit of success over like two days, and then we got excited for a bit and then we're like, it's not something that we necessarily measure how we're going, how, how do you

11:28
feel very fickle, but quite clinical about how we think about them. And we know that they serve a purpose. And that is literally maybe just being visible enough to drive new listeners. It's not like a measure of our worth by any stretch. Like at all, I don't ever look at it as a measure of our worth. But to be honest, we're quite clinical in that. Let's try to get it to a certain point so that we drive new listeners. And once that's done, I'm not that fussed about it. So you don't look at charitable. No

11:58
way we don't even get into the chat. You can type in you can type in a podcast name, and it will show you where they're in the charts were saying, and it will have like, Yeah, it's great, because you can sort of see people's growth over time. So you can see, rather than just if they've just jumped in for one, yeah, one day or whatever you can say how they

12:21
dress, you probably have a different mindset. If you looking at charitable. Yeah, well, I think

12:25
the thing that I've learned is it's not about going in once, it's probably just consistently being in the top 50 would be good. But again, I we when we found out I think we're still working on mail, when we found out that the charts on Apple podcast, almost entirely determined by new subscribers. Top episodes is determined by downloads, so in episodes but often doing very, very well. But in the new subscribers, not always that great. It's been interesting, say she's the money charts really, really well.

12:53
Yeah, it does. Because it's constantly finding a new audience. And I think that's a really strong part about that podcast in particular. But like we can coming back to you I would never look at those charts and be like, Oh my god, we're like 50 right now we suck

13:05
money. I really just don't get

13:06
it's very relatable. I mean, everyone has to deal with it.

13:09
Yeah, and I think it's helpful. I think Victorian Annabel on that podcast have been amazing. And they've just smashed it. And the contents very, very helpful. And I think when people find something helpful, they want to share it and when you share it people new people,

13:21
I think we completely underestimated how hungry women were for money content completely underestimated and I think the success of that podcast is a lot

13:28
and do you what sort of position do you guys play amongst those other podcasts? Are you coaches like what

13:35
so we we do all the content management so we come up with all the topics for the shows we do all of the research for the show scripting? We sit on recording so we're the producers we met it is we did train audio training. We did all that we made all the artwork. We were the jingles Yeah.

13:52
I like our fingerprints are all over the entire thing. Like often we've offered to like run socials, run newsletters, like, literally have actually on all of it. I think because we've got such a content background. And we are writers by trade, we kind of can do all of it. And we've worked on a brand which is shameless for a year. So we kind of now have got a handle on what works and what doesn't when it comes to podcast outlet just like the minutiae of what makes a podcast good.

14:15
Michelle, you said you look after all the social stuff. currently don't have the password to our Instagram account. I

14:22
shut everyone I shut everyone off. I wasn't happy. I went into the ends. And I saw that there were a couple of games where there were we liked someone. How can we expect to have conversation because I know how much like if someone if someone that's why you can't be in

14:48
bed, she needs to come to me and get signed beta. But same with the calendar. I can't put anything in our calendar. Someone comes to me and goes, let's do a coffee meeting. When are you free? I have to literally be like czars at a dinner right now. I have to wait for her to be back so she can give me a time.

15:00
It does work. Well. It's like

15:02
it's for for money like finance. For us. I'm someone who's quite a loose unit more just by stuff. And so Tommy is the good filter of like, Hey, is it cool? And receipts

15:13
looking after that? Yeah, I say

15:15
with our safe bank know,

15:19
our little areas and we stick to them. She's actually pretty good at social media, but she doesn't have the patience to respond to people the way I would like them to be responding. I think

15:28
the way that I put it is you're more front facing I'm more back facing right. I would like do more in the business. You would do more front facing social media stuff while we're sitting this way.

15:38
I guess I mean, I'm just not looking to shop.

15:42
Usually the stressed out we have been somewhere that you just dressed up for the

15:47
scene. I'm curious and trying the people brands are doing the text messages. Have you seen this stuff where it's like, it's like the new thing instead of having an email list. Friends text one, I always feel like I get like, you know, Joey's pizza, there's a deal like

16:08
a couple of hundred billion dollars.

16:15
Yesterday, I, I had a chat with the guys. I'm like, I want to trial it in some way. How many things are you finding and being like, I want to trial it today versus being patient and rolling things out slowly? What do you mean? So like, if you find something new, if you find something, say new within Instagram, would you just implement it straightaway?

16:33
No. It's actually funny off that we yesterday kind of had a quick chat around Instagram TV, and how we want to push into it and actually brought you boys up and how I like what you guys are doing with Instagram today. And so she didn't we're having a meeting.

16:52
You don't need a compliment

16:57
you guys and I texted Annabel, who is on you can be manager and said Annabel, can you

17:01
in on this conversation?

17:03
Well, she I said to her like can you actually look at the daily talk show boys and how they're doing Instagram TV? I want to do Instagram TV, can you figure out a way that we can do it without all of the incredible equipment and setup that you

17:14
guys have? And the blond guy over there. Mr. Nice and Mr. Nice

17:17
IPS. Um, so yeah, things like that we definitely want to push into. But to be honest, I'm very, very strategic about social media and I want things to be right. I don't want to just go into them and half ass it and have it be shipped content.

17:31
So time thing. Yeah,

17:33
yeah, we're having a meeting next Wednesday, I

17:35
think you've got about the time to actually do things properly. And I think one thing that we've always held very close to us is doing things properly when we commit to doing them. So if we don't have the time to do it properly, straightaway, we're not jumping in what have you dropped that you weren't doing properly?

17:46
Twitter? Twitter? Yeah. Just sort of hanging on? Right?

17:51
Yeah, we dropped it. We haven't. I mean, nothing huge. I'm sure we've pivoted with regards to like how we post what we post what we do on social media,

18:00
your emails are impressive. It's like the ones that like it's the most amount of writing I do in a way.

18:05
newsletter.

18:06
Yeah, because it's like, it's there's, yeah, you've you've taken your craft and what you're good at, and implemented it into the email, rather than it just being a couple of banners and

18:17
your superpower that is your superpower. And so if it's not like think about how much effort that takes for someone who can't string a sentence together, like myself, but it's that way, so then it's going okay, what, what am I good at? And should I just do more of that?

18:34
Well, it was strange for us, because people came to know us through the podcast, that this wasn't our first love. And it wasn't maybe the thing that we were good at, like it was writing. And that was the thing that we loved the most. That was the thing. And it was strange to us that we had this audience that didn't know us as writers. So we kind of wanted to reintroduce ourselves as writers to them and say, Hey, this is the thing that we actually really love doing. And this is the thing that kind of makes us incredibly happy. And the podcast is a product of that rather than the other way around. And

19:00
it was our as I teach to the newsletters as well. I remember she came to me last year when she was working at domain and said, let's do a newsletter. And I hadn't even thought of it.

19:08
And in true Michelle fashion, she says Great. Let's do it next week. And I said,

19:12
Yeah, which often happens are all have a like, we'll both come up with an idea together. And I'll want to do it ASAP. And she'll want to do it

19:19
quite, I'm saying similarities in a way, right? I mean, the interesting thing is I connect the experiences I have about worrying about the small stuff with my anxiety around like, okay, is this actually something that we need to worry about? Or is this may just like having a freakout moment? Have you done a good job in separating the stresses of that business stuff? This is you mental health?

19:44
It's an interesting one. I think. At the moment, we're having discussions with a few different brands and different companies and stuff and next year, I think when you're looking at big targets that can be quite stressful. But at the same time, I think I was actually night belief in the company and what we're doing that I don't actually find it that anxiety inducing. I thought I would and I thought it would be huge pressure on my mental health. But to be honest, no, I think work really, um, it makes me really happy with working on a project at the moment that can be quite stressful because I think when you're in the middle of the creative process, there's that really viral meme where it's like, this is shit I am shit and I think we're in the IM shit phase. Phase. Um, so things like that can be stressful, but I think it's a mental health thing. It's just a stress thing, which I'm not sure is the exact same.

20:34
Like say for me, it's like, say the DM of us only liking something and not responding.

20:42
Like it was all made.

20:45
I didn't mean to just

20:49
realise it. But you did say you did say that.

20:53
It's interesting because in height like I can actually say myself externally, like I look at it being like you're being like a I was talking to 97 last. Last night we're talking about like how we're sending out merge and it's just like I had this vision that we would have custom satchels and the guys brought like playing satchels. It's a timing thing because it can take three weeks to print satchels. There's also get them out

21:17
yesterday. Custom satchels.

21:21
Yeah, exactly. Like how many of those little things you guys

21:25
must be darn focused on little things that

21:26
I don't To be honest, I don't at all, because I think I have like this massive obsession with efficiency, like making sure that things are done and done well. And quickly. I remember it was Jamila Rizvi. I think she gave an interview once and she said, I like things to be good enough. And I was like, that's me. Like, I'm not going to get done in the detail. I think it's a complete waste of time I lack things being done properly. But if something is good enough, I'm going to say yep. and move on. So for us to get bogged down in the small stuff would I think divert attention and energy that we actually don't have a surplus of Yeah,

21:56
well, I think Josh is the argument to it is the friction driven by no anxiety, would you say driven by a certain standard that can translate as anxiety move us forward? So it's like, hectic, crazy moment. But then taking a step forward,

22:14
which is afraid. Actually, the freakout has, it's almost like the con celebrate go to look at you know, Kate looking forward. There's a little bit in that's like, I've trained myself that if the if, if I do freak out a little bit, I'll go guys, we need to have a meeting about this. This is like we need a whiteboard out when there's sort this shit out. Like that ends up getting getting it done, which I don't necessarily know.

22:40
I think I agree with elements of what you're saying. Because there's certainly been times where Apple has half dropped and we have like clicked I think straight away. I'm like, All right, we're pivoting straight away. Yeah. Like it's we have that little freakout. And then we're like, all right, things need to change. For example, there was one Friday, I remember so vividly. It was only like a month ago, and too many balls were starting to drop, like we were completely literally overwhelmed. And we call that Annabel who hosts ashes in the money podcast, and we basically hired her on the spot. Like having that freakout was quite efficiency. I love my efficiency, because we thought straightaway, okay, we've been sweating about this, we're stressed about this, let's make a change straightaway and push us forward straightaway.

23:15
I think as well as many freak outs are really great in terms of defining who you are and who you want to be as a brand. And if you don't have those freak outs will have those moments where you're like, what does this say about us? You don't have a really cliched vision, sometimes it can be really good to have those breakout.

23:29
Is it is it a response to pressure though?

23:33
I think it's like internal, like a part of its like the storytelling. So we tell a storey of like, the reason why people listen is because of x, y and Zed when a lot of cases I don't necessarily think it's the case. And especially I think when you coming from a craft point of view, the difference is say for instance, if you're a really good writer, and you put together a paragraph or whatever for your email list, and you're not necessarily that happy with it. You could easily say like efficiency, we've got to get it out and all that sort of thing. But also, you've got to think like is this filter the standard that I've been using?

24:10
Well, it's that overlap between efficiency and quality, right. And I think I would never, ever let quality slip for efficiency. But that said, I think we could spend so much time stewing over things and rereading things. And going over things to the point that it's actually not helpful. Like there have been times I've punched out an article that I'm not particularly happy with. And I will send it to Michelle, and I'll be like, I don't know if this is good enough to go out. And then she says Actually, this is some of my favourite writing of yours. Like you just have different standards. So fucking

24:37
annoying, right?

24:41
Guys are often semi sandwiches, like, I have no idea what this is. This is beautiful and operated. Like that's my favourite thing, you Vernon? Because sometimes

24:49
we listen to ourselves, and because if our selves aren't always right, and which, what point do you go, I feel good about this, this is going to be great.

24:58
Well, I think that's the plan of having a business partner. Right, I think we can kind of recalibrate each hella quite well, at the moment, because one of us might be in a place that is down or low, and the airline can kind of lift them up and reassure them. And I think we're pretty good at doing that for each other.

25:14
Also, I've heard an argument and I don't know where I've pulled this from. But I've listened to a few interviews on like the creative process and creativity and the idea that your opinion actually doesn't matter at all, like your opinion on the work that you're doing is not worth that much at all, because it's so infused with ego and so infused with bias that you should actually just separate it all together. And with some of the stuff that we're working on at the moment, I should do that more like I should just separate it and say, Well, this is the work that I'm doing in my opinion on it doesn't matter, I'll send it to my editor, send it to Michelle, I'll send it to other people. But my opinion right now is completely irrelevant, because it's so infused with so much else. And I think that's kind of nice to hold on to, too. That's why it's better to have a business be like what is this?

25:48
And for us one of the reasons One of the things that is the antidote to that lizard brain is not editing this show. Because if we gave us ourselves that opportunity,

26:00
look at five minutes long if we cut out all the shit,

26:03
definitely Yeah, that's why it's great to have a walk that tells you you get a haircut and to get a cut, like a DDS that I subscribe

26:12
does look great. You got to be really wise in doing that, I think because we had an opposite approach when we began and that was to edit everything. And I think you can definitely go down the route of over editing and over curating the content you're putting out. So I think when we first met you guys, and so how you were doing things that probably influenced us a little bit as well, to just kind of like, press record. Yeah, we do repeat some stuff that we say like if we stumble over a word will probably repeat that word and cut out the stumble. But I think the amount we were editing has definitely changed since we saw how other podcasters have done it. I think this is definitely the healthier way to do it. And it's probably the way that helps you be a better broadcaster.

26:50
Yeah, well, it's it's not relying on the post prod right, like the classic line is like will fix it in post. Nice no fix it.

26:57
Exactly. Well, if you got one shot on that stage to nail

27:01
presenters and lots of I guess you gotta give it

27:03
everything. And so that there is I guess it's a bit of pressure pressure behind that.

27:08
Yeah. Zahra, you were in New York, when was it love etc came out during your holiday holiday? Yes. I mean, what was? What was the learning? learning that going going on

27:21
dropping you podcast when you booked a holiday? Yeah. No, look, I didn't mind it. Like I think the bottom line is we really liked the work that we do. And it's kind of an unpopular opinion to say that, like we don't have any balance. And to be honest, I don't need huge amounts of balance at the moment. Like that's the truth, I did come out of that holiday thinking that I needed another holiday was not very good. I thought the learnings from that were, I mean, I we can work remotely on it, and it's fine. I wouldn't probably do it again, I think if we're going to switch off, we should switch off properly, which is something that we really need to do. And either we switch off or we don't like you work through the weekend or you don't but don't half ass anything. I think that's something we're coming to. It was kind of it was strange London, that podcast where I was saying I was ever say sorry,

28:03
it gets tricky as well, more generally, if you're used to being quite hands on and in digital major in podcasting, or whatever you're doing that you are switched on some part of your brain is in work mode, probably 24 hours of the day, apart from when you're sleeping maybe. But with going on a break and saying we're not going to work at all can be really disorienting. I know I find it very disorienting if I actually think about it at all, I actually might not even think my brains trying to do that do that anymore. I feel like I have a function. Foreign switching off is really tricky. And when your work is infused with the social media apps that everyone uses on that front on the holiday, I can't really look at Instagram and say as a social networking app, I can't look at Facebook and say it is a social networking app. Because basically all I do on those apps is work. And I when I'm on Instagram, I don't even scroll through the fade like it's so like I'm scrolling through and lacking my friends purse, I literally go on there to check the shameless thing or something or respond to and we'll do that on my own personal page. I don't use it for fun at all. Going on a holiday and saying we're not going to do any work is great. And we do need to do it because our brains need to get better at that. However, I find it super stressful and super anxiety inducing actually to be like what am I doing? It's such

29:15
a fine line that I remember when I was in New York, and it was maybe the day before the podcast is about to drop and we realised that it hadn't funnelled into Spotify yet. And I was calling Michelle and the Alice was super weird. And I remember being like I was on my way to Broadway. And I was like, on the tube. And it was probably like, on my whiteboard right on the tube in Broadway. And I realised that I hadn't said a word to the two girlfriends that I was with for the last hour because I was like, on the phone and I was biting my nails. And I was so stuck in my own head. And I don't realise that's what I do when I get stressed. I completely zoned out. And I heard them talking about me in a lovely way. But But I think Maddie was like to my other girlfriend, Hannah, I could just leave it like she hasn't spoken in a while. And I was like, Oh my god, I'm being so rude. But I think that's what needs to change. And that when I was on a holiday, and I was so stressed that I'd go and meet for an hour because I was literally in my own head going over and over things, which is not ideal, either. We definitely would not launch another podcast on holiday. Again, I think yeah, we would definitely make sure that the three weeks we are on holiday, I will separate away from that and say the reason that we did that that wasn't a silly decision. That was a very well thought out decision. And it was when we pitched the podcast, we said to them, we'll go on break. And when we're on break, we'll pull all our listeners across. Like that was the idea behind it. And you can't do that when you're not on right.

30:24
Yeah, I think the difference will be the podcast we're launching in the future might probably won't have our voices exclusively across them. So it's like, you don't need to give them a break from you and then introduce them to a new podcast, it can just be all at once like she's in the money.

30:36
All of these like perfect scenarios don't exist. That's the other thing that we're experiencing is it's like, every we talked about, like the static carpet effect, which was like, we just got a bunch of shit sorted, like hard drives and all that sort of thing a few weeks ago, and I went to print to grab one of the drives, and I got a little Static Shock. And I said to 97 I'm like we're gonna if I can sort out this carpet, because it's like gives me static show, it's like, every single there's always going to be a stomach carpet, there's always going to be something that needs to need needs to be done

31:06
little spot fires to put out.

31:08
Well, we've realised we get to the end of the way it can be always a lot away, well can't wait for the next one. And then I might hang on. Like maybe this is just a job. Like maybe a job is putting out those spot fires and getting channels like brain like that was a lot and a lot of little things to sort out. But maybe that's the new normal. And the faster we get used to that the better it will Josh and I talk a lot about

31:28
What business do we want to create? And so we've worked in, you know, a bunch of different companies. And so you get to start, you get to understand, okay, we don't want some huge agency where we're just highly stressed. And you know, money's the main focus. And so we've been trying to create a lifestyle around what we do. Is there been a thought for you girls, launching these other two podcasts which bring on more pressure and stress? And are you starting to see that

31:55
with regards to not wanting to do a high pressure or

31:58
just what you actually enjoy? Well, you don't enjoy.

32:01
I mean, it's not like we've had conversations about it. We know the kind of workplace that we want to create, we know the kind of content that we want to push out. And I think that's the fundamental baseline of the conversations that we have. With regards to anything else. I think we're pretty good at like Michelle said, like if we're working too much on the weekend at tapping out and and i think that sort of inference about how much we want to work and what kind of workplace we want to do is there but again, look how bad at communicating we saying, What do you think, do we say bad? Because we're like, we haven't had that conversation? There is a lot of implicit in this to what we do, I think in our relationship with each other. Yeah, we're very much in sync.

32:36
Yeah, totally. And I also think there's like areas that we've defined recently that we absolutely hate. Yeah, like we hate editing the podcast. Yeah. We can't wait to hire someone to come on and do it for us, because it's just dead time. It's like, two hours a week.

32:50
Does it feel like it's something that anyone can do? Because you hear about bloggers who are like, that's where the craft happened,

32:56
something we're not good at sucking our time, that there are a lot of people out there that are good at,

33:01
you know what it would be if someone came onto the show and said, I'm going to manage content, and I'm going to manage what segments you do, I would absolutely spin out I would not be able to have that happen at all, actually editing it and be like this sound effect goes here. The sound effect goes here, whatever, I'd be totally fine with them doing that. But if anyone tried to put their hands on the content, and the ideas and the segments, absolutely.

33:28
Anyone that's going upstream. I think what you guys are doing is not the the normal thing that I think that takes maybe not really like self belief.

33:39
I yeah, I was just about to say I'm pretty risk averse. Generally, like my personality is incredibly risk of us. So I think there is an element of from the outside looking far riskier than it is. And I think that comes from having incredible self belief in what you're doing. Because if you do very much believe in what you're doing and what you're pushing out and the audience that you have, then it doesn't feel very risky from the inside.

33:59
It's also belief in where everything's going like you're on like the right side of all of all of this stuff.

34:05
Well, I think the magic of it all. And I was thinking about this the other day until you really thought about it last night is that we're creating for ourselves. Like we're creating content, and we're doing things that are kind of adapting to what we're already doing. As consumers like Zahra, and I love podcast, we love video content. We love written content. And we're literally creating for ourselves and our sisters and our cousins and our friends. And while that might seem risky in a job sense, we also know that the audience is there because we are the audience. So it doesn't feel as risky to ask you the same so obvious that of course, people would want to have this kind of content cuz I want this content. And I'm a basic bitch.

34:43
I mean, you think about like the awesome community, like when, when I'm watching the bachelor, with Bry, my girlfriend, she'll be

34:51
the disclaimer.

34:56
I can actually go my phone now because she's in the shameless community, like commenting. It's like the best out for me because I can be on it's like, we're both on our phones. And she's connecting with people. And I'm connected.

35:08
Thread the wild as well. We do. We have survivor threads on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and we have threads on Wednesday, Thursday, and they're crazy time.

35:17
Yeah, I love that. It's a it's so much more than a podcast. I can't think of anyone that thinks that shameless and things podcasts. I think they're like missing like the 90% of the whole thing.

35:28
You can open a Facebook group.

35:30
I mean, just as if you have Facebook.

35:32
Yeah, I re re got a new Facebook. I signed up again. Well, cuz I I retired from social. Completely got off it. Yeah, but

35:47
that worked out really well.

35:50
Man, yeah, you know, now I've just been back. Like real hot. like Facebook? Because actually, what Yeah, when I logged in, I saw that I created like, the first few weeks of us doing the podcast, I created the daily talk show, I caught the straight team yet that like people could become a member of

36:11
10 the gronk into a Facebook group. So engage, definitely, but I think it's a conversation of what are you good at Twitter, you know, you're not giving it everything. And I think,

36:21
you know, we need to respond to add to him.

36:24
approach is that entrepreneur dirty. He does everything right. I get it out on absolutely everything. And then there's another school of thought, which is do a couple of platforms really, really well. Yeah.

36:37
Yeah, I think that's more asked because we know our audience is it's not like we're trying to target everyone. We're not we're trying to target a specific demographic, we know where they live. So it makes sense for us to do them. But

36:46
you guys do do Instagram really well, like your Instagram lives. We're also really engaging. I remember one time we asked for a shout out.

36:52
Yeah. And then someone says, Do you guys know is

37:02
actually the whole thing, like spammy by

37:03
so and then it's about finding the thing that we actually enjoy. Because if we didn't enjoy the Facebook thing,

37:10
it'd be hard to be honest, like looking at how Bry interact with with Facebook. It's not how I even see Facebook. Like for me, it seems like a forum or seems like even though it's cold cold that it's it's actually quite strange seeing her interact with it. Because my thoughts are experienced around Facebook at the f1 you grew up with.

37:32
It's interesting, I only use Facebook to go into the group. Now.

37:36
I don't think I've looked at the newspaper months, I reckon there would be a bunch of people that just have the app for your we have said

37:43
a few listeners have said I re downloaded Facebook or I go to Facebook account. Just I can join the group. Yeah, it's

37:48
pretty crazy, man. And so if if you start Did you have, I mean, you start a community, and a page in mind of growing it rise. But then if it doesn't work, I think this is the hard thing. You found success quite early, which is amazing. And so when when we've got to

38:05
fade, it's like,

38:07
you know, quit saying doing a live with one person on there. It's just like a FaceTime call.

38:12
very uncomfortable. I think very few creative people actually talk about that phase. I remember when I started blogging when I was 20. It's incredibly embarrassing and uncomfortable to start something. But I think until you actually kind of push it out there and just give it a go. No one's going to find it. So with the Facebook group, I mean, I remember the first times are and I saw someone joined who wasn't one of our family or friends. And we were like, Oh my god, like,

38:37
what are you doing? Yeah,

38:39
exactly. And it's funny, because we were so embarrassed. I remember being so embarrassed even to invite my best friends into the group of my sisters, because I'm like, yeah, we're trying this weird thing. And it's a little bit different. And there's every single chance in the world This might fail. And nobody

38:53
talks about that about like, people want to do things, they want to go work for themselves. But nobody talks about that sense of discomfort that comes from the start of telling people that that's the thing you're trying to do. Because I think people naturally roll their eyes. And they don't mean to. But I think we do live in a culture where people, the people that try to work against the grain, or I don't know push against the status quo. It's embarrassing, and it's awkward, and it's not cool. by any stretch start,

39:16
you only start with one person. And that's the thing as a business, you start by making $1 and then $10. And then 100,000. A million. But everyone's like, I think there is a culture a society, we're constantly thinking about. If you got a podcast, you're broadcasting to heaps of people. Yeah, there's a day one where it's like Tommy. And if we look at our graph, and we look at the first month, it's like we didn't tell anyone for the first 20 episodes. Yeah. And we would have had like, five, five listeners probably

39:51
think it's productive. Say, for instance, now this podcast has the most listeners ever had? And it was Yes, yes. Thank you for being here. But I'm more confident in telling people because I'm more personally convinced about what we're doing. And so I've always been wary of the people who are seeming convinced at a very early stage, because I'm like, I see what you're doing. And you know, it's just a bit of bravado right now. But maybe I'm just stole poppy syndrome, I think,

40:22
fake it till you make it. And I think that's what we did with shameless. I remember, the first few episodes had the same, like no downloads. And it's hard. I think very few people talk about how scary it is. But I think I definitely adopted the idea that you have to fake it until you make it and you have to just push full steam ahead until you try and find some kind of audience and to be honest, with super strategic as well. Like, it's not like we're throwing this thing out there. And it wasn't that wasn't the case. With the first few days of shameless at all. It wasn't like we were just putting it up and hoping people would find it. We were making sure people found it. And the amount of effort that was taking, like before my shifts at my mammals are ships at mama man going through our mighty uni and putting person lack of bathroom stalls and all that type of stuff. I think we spoke about last time, we wanted to make sure it was going to get listeners. And if people hadn't come on then yeah, I probably would have had a real crisis of confidence. But we were very lucky. I think it was a lot of timing that played in your hands.

41:19
As little as you know, Old Town road. You heard about what he did? No, oh my god. So that was the in the longest in the charts for any song, he found the bait online. And he and then sort of released a bit he made 200 means and he built a subreddit that was like, do you know the song. And so he started releasing, so he knew what he was doing super strategic, amazing. And so it just got into culture, through his means. And through the Reddit and through him in there doing the back end.

41:50
And that's what I love. Because I think when you're starting something fresh MIMO 23, when we started shameless with 25 now, we had no money, like we literally had no money to funnel into. So you've got to find a way to market without any ad spend. And that's crazy, like so many people would probably just go Oh, well, Facebook advertising will put $1,000 behind simply, I remember when we went to Office wax, it cost $67 to print out 200 pages of the paper, because we did it so many times. And I remember being like, okay, $67 where's that going to come from czar transfer me 33. Like it?

42:20
Yeah, that level of but I think that's the thing that we learnt working really early on. I think one of the biggest blessings was working in digital media at a time that the Facebook algorithm made basically every digital news outlet crash. And there was no way to get eyeballs on to content. And that was literally our foray into the industry. And it was a very depressing time to start as a digital rider. And when we started working together, it was always this sense of Okay, yes, I could write the most beautiful piece of writing, but nobody's going to read it. So how do you make sure people write it? So literally became the strategy of 50% content? 50% strategy, the content doesn't matter if it's brilliant, people have to say it. And that's this. That's what we took on board with shameless it's like yes, this podcast could be fact that people have defined it.

43:01
Is there anything that you didn't do or haven't done based on the friction of feeling like we're above that or we don't want to do that or like a go for us? I think about like, the like the embarrassment of say like how much we're posting say like the idea of are we can't you hear the storeys of people thinking you know, post 20 times a day or whatever. And then our brains say that people think we're fucking crazy if we post that amount,

43:29
I think it's like I post that photo of my haircut. Just give me another feeling really good, Tommy, thanks a lot.

43:38
On Instagram,

43:38
no, but I put up this photo and I was like, I was like, I feel sheet about putting up this photo of me. I never do post on that. And I did it on purpose. Really, and I got lots of validation.

43:49
Think about that. This is the thing I am much worse than Michelle at this right? I let my ego get in the way of a lot of these kinds of things I hate I hate running my own Instagram account. I hate posting on my own Instagram account if it's not with my friends out on a Saturday

44:01
night this is gonna run you fucking postal.

44:08
97 a shout out

44:12
but I'm so concerned I think with coming across as a Wildcat

44:16
that I overthink everything I put on there that like I might meet new people in them I'm follow me and then I'm like that on associated with my work. And then I think Fuck, they're gonna think I love myself seek or I'm so obsessed with myself. And I don't push out as much on my Instagram because of that fact. Because I just don't seem like a DK more than I take myself too seriously, because I think there's a huge element of that on Instagram.

44:37
So it's removing the filter. Is that a good thing? Like a way we're leaning it because I feel like I might you know what he gives a fuck if people think I'm a white guy, but maybe

44:50
your photo and be like, Oh my god, Tommy posted a photo of him sounds like it.

44:56
Well, we thought it was the best haircut we need to go halfway I think you need remove that filter. Because if you think about it, taking yourself too seriously, like I can't put this foot off of myself because everyone's thinking about what I'm doing. keeps a fuck what you're doing unless you're being a real Lankan. So in my mind, if I'm alive, if I want to apply filters, if I want to parse it, I'll probably post it. But if it's overly self indulgent, for example, I wouldn't stand in front of a mirror and take a bikini photo. I think that's a little bit self indulgent. But would I take a selfie where I'm like, I'm going out with my friends and I'm smiling, I look happy. I'm like, whatever. I just think that needs to be like a beat on both sides. Because I think if you're in a the camp where you posting everything about yourself, yeah, you're a bit of analysis. They feel like everyone cares so much about me, I don't want to look like x y Zed, you probably a bit of a

45:48
lot of thought of that is I think Instagram is like by virtue of one of these incredibly self indulgent and I think self indulgent line has moved too far along, I can be excused more than we used to. And the sense what's normal has become skewed. And I think that's part of the conversation to

46:03
you know what it is, I remember coming to this conclusion a couple years ago, I think you should check yourself and if you're happy with how you look, whatever, whatever. Show yourself, but show your personality at the same time. I think one becomes entirely aesthetic or something. It looks very narcissistic. If you're sharing your personality and

46:19
finality when he did the haircut.

46:20
What did I rise,

46:22
it wasn't a weighty you can get away with a lot if you

46:29
got my hair off, cut my hair off, Chris back.

46:35
Just as I want to

46:38
show you're one of the few people in the room working towards getting a house or an apartment or Yes. What's the what's the deal? Well,

46:47
we're waiting for a tax return to come back from our accountant. But it's gonna be tricky, because if I only had shameless media out the company with an ICF for like, what, five months? Yes, you're supposed to have a company for two years before you can

46:59
buy. Yeah.

47:01
It's very, very lucky. Mitch has a stable long term job. But we're waiting on that. So waiting for an accountings get back and then we can go to the mortgage broker and all that type of stuff. But saving up a deposit took fucking a lot of energy. Yeah, it took so long. So hopefully, once we do by probably the beginning of next year, we want to go on a trip to Europe in the middle of that year, because we haven't been on a proper overseas trip in so long liquid and Bali here and there a couple of times. But Mitch, and I want to do like a proper three week, your three weeks isn't very long. But that's how long a break we'll be in the middle of next year. Hopefully,

47:33
actually, just just hoping that that's okay. Long before

47:39
actually practically married, like we almost have to message each other like every morning, like what are you wearing? We need to be on the same page of her meeting up with someone I am going out for dinner. I'm not going to be on my phone for the next hour. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yes. Well,

47:51
a business partnership requires a level of commitment. And then we've worked that out. Right. It's like mine actions directly impact Josh and Bry. And you know, I whole situation.

48:03
So handy.

48:04
Yeah, my moods. Yeah, I think you can't I think you can definitely fall into the trap of being like, well, we don't have you know, I workplaces all over. You know, our workplace is all over the place at the moment, we could be going for meetings, we could be working from our houses, so that we could fall into this trap of thinking that it's not a real workplace that I'm working with my friends. But it's incredibly important that you actually show up in a good mood in a positive headspace. Because if not, you're gonna drag the other person down.

48:27
That may saying I'm so tired a million times is right direction.

48:32
I feel like we're both like our energies are pretty aligned now. Maybe it's just because we're both been working out to them. We're both tired. Yeah. feels like it's like it's really not working out. Not working out. Definitely not working out. The conversation stuff. I feel like when you came on the show last time, that may have only just started.

48:56
Yeah, it would have we were doing it fortnightly. I think the last time I spoke to you boys, now we do weekly, which has been a big commitment. But it's one that we've really, really enjoyed. I think it's such a privilege to sit down with influential, successful people and pick their brain for 45 minutes, because I think we've found we just learned so much from all these different diverse people. And it's so fun to be able to say yeah, quick Hi, and get a quick recommendation and be like, Cool. All right, tell us about I don't know,

49:24
like what are you scared of what makes you sad? What makes you happy? I'm sure you guys really experienced the same thing. It's like you get to have a proper conversation with someone that you really respect. And I think it takes it took us a little while to realise how much of a privilege that job was,

49:37
really is such an enriching

49:39
experience. What have you learned from podcasting personally, because I find it cathartic, I find the showing up daily, it actually keeps me more consistent, you're talking about mood is like we're actually going to show up each day. Regardless, I can feel I can feel great, but it just we have

49:52
to show up. I think podcasting has taught me to be really thoughtful about what I want to put out in the world. And I think you need to take your time to formulate what you think and what you believe before you say it. And it's good to have an audience that keeps us really accountable in that if we fuck up or if we say something offensive, or which I hope we haven't done so far. But of course, we're going to say things

50:17
out of it, right? I don't I don't even know if that's the

50:20
Yeah, because everyone's gonna be someone's gonna be pissed off about.

50:24
I think it's about being thoughtful and putting a lot of effort into sharing your opinions. Because again, it's a privilege to have a microphone in front of your face. And not everyone has that privilege or that platform. And if you need to be responsible with it.

50:36
Well, I do have a resentment. And I think that's only kind of exacerbated since we've done the podcast with people that have incredibly passionate opinions about something that's like not bothered to do any research for like apple. And I think for me, it's exactly the same thing. It's making sure that anything I say or any opinion that I have can be backed up with something. And if it if I can't, I'm not going to sit in a conversation and pretend I know what's going on. I will literally I have not read enough about this to have an opinion that's worth anything. And I think it's also humbling in that sense to be like, I'm not adding anything. I'm just a stain on this conversation. If I join in, I'm going to take a step back.

51:11
I mean, I'm like that sign on the conversation really impactful. you recognise the tagline?

51:19
One, there's another side, like, there's people out there that push and say things that obviously aren't correct or they don't know enough about because it draws attention to them. Yeah, there's the reality of saying stuff like the tribe thing that was connected that was so interesting to hear. I'd never knew about that. Never thought about the word tribe, or its origins. And then whether it's okay to use I was thinking about Jules land, he's got a business called tribe was bit worried for a moment. But I'm not anymore because he did your research. But yeah, you see how that has become a learning experience for a bunch of people. So we are learning a catalyst to learn for some people. And it could be a result of something that we misspoke,

51:58
totally. And for anyone who missed it was basically that we'd use the word tribe in a love etc podcast and someone came into our Facebook group to say, Hey, that was actually offensive. And I impulsively apologise and lie down and said, I'm really, really sorry, it will never happen again, will never use that word again. But when I actually had time to go through and do my own research and kind of engagement and critical thinking skills, I came to the conclusion that know the word tribes not offensive using specific tribe names is offensive. And using other words, in the vernacular, our offence is like pow pow is offensive because it refers to a specific Native American spiritual practice. I don't think that's appropriate to use. I'm happy I did the research because No, I won't use Palau in everyday language anymore. I won't use it in the podcast, unless I'm explaining what it actually means. tribe, though, I think it's important to have an environment where everyone can come to their own conclusion, within reason, of course, and actually do their research and use those critical thinking skills because lots of people since that podcast on Monday have reached out who are Native American and said, actually really enjoy people using the word tribe and a happy positive context refer to family and friends. I like that place dark news, my specific tribe name, but can you retract an apology? Then all I did

53:11
is I came

53:12
on and I said, I actually really regret apologising for that. I regret how I reacted to that, because I think it's great to listen to minorities in particular. And I would always endorse paper to do that. But I think on that occasion, I'd read that article, and instead of going, I'm going to have a think about it, then reply to it, and then approve the post. I approve the post and instinctively when I'm so sorry, it'll never happen again, when that's wrong, because then no one's having a discussion. And if we're not having a discussion, no one's communicating. And if we're not communicating, we're all staying in our separate fields, probably holding some type of resentment and not knowing why.

53:46
Yeah, it's, it's being being okay with under the under like working out the strike halfway. This never happened before.

54:00
This is the underline the bit

54:02
now I think it like working out what the meaning is of something like you can see how that you can go down rabbit holes to like, I need to know everything before I speak versus I guess what I like about podcasting is we have the opportunity to go back and change and transform and also from an audience point of view is like, you might say something on a certainly on episode 70. But then Episode 75, you actually change your mind a lot.

54:29
And I think the Facebook group is a real blessing in that sense, because there are times where someone will come in and say, Hey, Zahra, you said something like this, and I didn't really like it. And I have the opportunity in that moment in front of 24,000 people to say, Actually, I phrased it really badly. Like, this is actually what I meant. And here's how I would phrase it had I had my time again, and everyone says, Oh, my God, I can completely understand where you're coming from now. And that's a real blessing to not just having the post production and the editing and being able to change your mind five episodes later. But cultivating a community Be aware that will listen to you if you do want to clarify,

55:03
yeah, I've said things that are wrong in general before, like I remember we spoke about the hunter markets, which is kind of like a influence a marketplace where people can come and sell the gifts and the clothes and the accessories that were gifted. And we came in a podcast and went, that's so stupid, like give it to charity, why are you making money off things that come to you. And the founder of hunter markets actually reached out and said, Actually, this is really good, because it means people are recycling, it means that things are being bought secondhand. And that's good. Instead, these women going out and buying these designer goods or whatever, from a supermarket or from a supermarket or online, and we come back on the podcast and like, absolutely we do not think about that there was another influence that we spoke about where she does mommy blogging, that's not probably the best word to use it. But that's the only phrase that comes to mind at the moment. And we came on the podcast and said all that, like it's not a long term career to be doing this type of stuff. Like what What is she

56:02
saying? And I remember she came out and said, Well, I'm a mom first and foremost, like that's, that's my goal. And I think the 224 year olds at the time, were very career driven. Yeah, we had our blinkers on to assume that everybody would have the same goals and dreams that we have, which is just so close minded. And she seems out she's since pivoted.

56:21
We're talking yesterday about stereotypes, and you could easily stereotype as a man, you know. And so that's what I was talking about yesterday, learning about drawing attention to a stereotype. And I'm not even talking about racially, it's just about, you know, a bunch of people that are similar. All they do is you know,

56:39
we have our own stereotype, I'm sure people like say us and say, Okay, these guys are this, this and this.

56:44
What do you think your stereotype would be

56:46
recognised as the gronk?

56:47
Yeah, well, no, I reckon now. Yeah, I think that I mean, that's part of it is just a couple of gronk who are doing it who aren't necessarily,

56:55
we're not the smartest, we're not the most talented, but we're committed to what we're doing.

56:58
And that's what people think I went not like, you guys, apart from the fact that you don't like football as much as I would like. I like the every man, like very relatable.

57:08
Well, I think, and I think that I've never been called the every man.

57:15
Every man

57:20
to our experience to it, that actually means and that's the term gronk. He's like, we're all gronk as well, just trying to do our best. Yeah, we all struggle, and we all have great days, and I feel shit about the stuff we do. I'm really inspired, sometimes not others. That's like the human experience. And so if we can share our learnings as we go, we're not here trying trying to be you know,

57:44
have all the answers. Exactly.

57:45
And that would be hard. Sam Harris. Yeah, the guy who does the meditation, he's a neuroscientist. He can't be stupid. He can't say dumb stuff. Because he's brand is I'm really smart. I'm a scientist. And so you know, the opposite is, actually but I think it's, it's a platform for us to learn as humans. And that's what's nice about it.

58:04
I reckon. So funny that you think you're the opposite of Sam Harris there, because I think you guys are incredibly thoughtful, and insightful with some of the things you talk about. Because there are lots of male lead podcast, one in particular comes to mind. Yeah, we're not talking about that aren't like that. So it's funny that you guys see yourself as the antithesis of Sam Harris, when I don't

58:25
think there's something to be said, I was thinking about this when I was listening to your interview, as opposed to Blake about like the makings of a great brand and marketing strategies and stuff like that. And I feel like particularly in the female space, the brands that are doing really, really well at the moment, other ones that position themselves on the same playing field as their consumer. So you think about I mean, these are OBD brands, forgive me, but like you go to Zika, CEOs, anything like that, that speaks to the consumer from the same level is incredibly powerful. And I think that's hopefully what we do with the shameless community as well. It's like, we are literally on the same playing field right now. And I think the trust that comes from that is pretty huge, which is what you guys do to it's that positioning on the playing field. I think

59:03
the with the in conversation stuff, have you learned things about yourselves? Being in that environment, the posture of interviewing and being able to react?

59:12
We've learned body language with each other? Yeah, you

59:17
guys do it? engage. Cool, engaged?

59:20
Yeah, one person has to engage the other one.

59:28
He always talks about just having.

59:31
I want to get to the point

59:32
like, yeah, so for us, whether it's, whether it's just some words we're using to describe it, but we try and have conversations and and interviews. And so for us, and what that does, is allows us to be a bit more open to not be scripted, do our research, be interested in the person we don't have people on that we're not interested in? I think everyone's interesting. So

59:53
yeah, I think also it's like,

59:56
also that we have

59:58
definitely, what I was meaning that i think it's it's okay, there is some freedom about being us being okay with being a bit dumb. Like I think that the day that way, like, no, Michelle, you're right, I think that we are very similar to Sam Harris said you will be every man,

1:00:25
every man and

1:00:31
when it comes to what we've learned, interviewing, I think there are a couple of things. I think it's like, doing research for people is the most simple thing you can do. And what a lot of people don't do in this industry is I would hate to demand someone's time get them to sit down with us for an hour and ask for us for us to look like we don't know anything about them. We act like stalkers on the interview them because they were like, yeah, so when you said this in 2006, with this magazine, but I think giving people the respect of doing research on them. He's very good. To make them feel comfortable. It's good for their ego to to be totally honest. And I think with that comes a better conversation, better answers. And I'm trying to

1:01:10
think like one of the biggest Pat's on the back that we've had all year was when one of the interviewees turned around after the interview. And she said, that is the best research interview I've ever done. Like, I can't believe how much you guys knew about me and you about my storey. I really appreciate that. Because sometimes I walk in a room and it's very clear the journalists will interview it has no fucking clue who I am, or is bread wanting to be or whatever. And I think that for me, when she walked out, I felt so good about what what we had done, because it's such an effort to come in and like not, not without coming in. Like it's such an effort for someone to take time out of the day for you and they've never met you. They have no idea what shameless is whatever. We want to make them feel valued, and like we've put in energy as well. So yeah, we always want to do as much research as possible and know as much about their storey as possible because it's nice for them. They feel saying

1:01:55
Yeah, well, Mr. 97 and I watched your whole 21st birthday video that clear. Did you watch on YouTube? Can

1:02:05
I ask you you messaged me saying we watch I'm like, why are you googling me? I've also

1:02:09
not so everybody,

1:02:11
Josh is Google history would be um, yeah.

1:02:17
We set up the task we've got like all these spreadsheets that were like building out stuff on one of the things was one of our brand filters was like surprise and delight. And then Mr. 97 was like, how about I get all of it the the Friends of the shows birthdays, and we do something for them on their birthday. I'm like, Okay, great. And so he was going for

1:02:36
my birthday. You can look you can look that up on Facebook YU.

1:02:42
He was on Google. And so he typed in this video

we watched the whole thing.

1:02:55
You know, that's actually a kind of ritual or tradition in our family. Birthday videos. We made one for Tom. He's the youngest was his 21st birthday a couple months ago. And we spent I think it was 11 hours

1:03:08
spinning wheel on I'm

1:03:12
really enjoyed that. It's really nice to look back on. My one is particularly embarrassing because it's from the blogging day. Amazing.

1:03:17
My family definitely doesn't love each other enough to do that

1:03:38
Is it a day two days after day? After you're in the wrong month? Is it the 30th of

1:03:45
always on the wrong Michelle got

1:03:46
the wrong Michelle. You guys 17th of March.

1:03:48
Yep. Correct what you know.

1:03:52
Wow. Wow, I feel all right.

1:04:00
Look at Dave,

1:04:01
on the guest stuff. I find that when like we ask someone to be on? And they say no, or they don't respond. I like in my head like, in my head. I write their name down as like. You've said, No, I'm going to remember this.

1:04:18
We blew off, like three months.

1:04:22
We've had you on, I guess, the show?

1:04:25
The biggest one because in the world, we said, we're so busy. And we probably will be for the next three months. So sorry,

1:04:31
no, that's fine. But the

1:04:33
calendar person So

1:04:35
my point is, how do you take rejection pretty

1:04:38
fine. I think I would like to think we're pretty fine. Because I don't think I'm still surprised when people have heard of us. So I'm really still genuinely very surprised when we might ask someone on the show and they know who we are. So I always come from the default that they have no idea who we are, we need to sell it to them. And if they don't know, steel van, or they're not paying off for that, I'll think pretty fair enough. I think the people that are asking are incredibly busy anyway. And I think it's a big commitment outside of the calendar of work you're already doing. So I'm not particularly offended or take it personally. I mean, it doesn't mean we're not going to ask them again. Yeah, we probably will annoy them. And we have had

1:05:10
success with people rejecting us. And then we get a little bit bigger, or we go back to like, how about down to like, yeah,

1:05:16
few inbound

1:05:17
coming. I asked Bry four times to go out with me before we started diving. She say No, she didn't. She said she didn't want a boyfriend. But then she ended up dating a hairdresser named Jordan, who on their first day gave her hair serum,

1:05:33
you're fine.

1:05:34
But the thing was, the way that I ended up finding out is like I had to ask Bry. And she said no. And then a month later, we're at a party. And she came over and said, by the way, I've told everyone we're going out now. So I was like yeah, that's great. Thank you. That's my

1:05:49
wife to be my girlfriend. Early dies. And she said no. And then she asked me to ask her again.

1:05:57
You guys some real rhyme. Yes.

1:06:00
Yeah, pretty sad.

1:06:02
What are you guys excited about? Well, it's

1:06:05
a great question.

1:06:06
A lot of stuff. Michelle, you start.

1:06:08
I clicked it because it's also true

1:06:10
thing that I'm excited about the most were literally like no to last talk about for another five months.

1:06:16
Yeah, the thing we're most excited about weren't even be in people's orbit for another year.

1:06:20
So not excited about it. When it rolls around? Ah, no, I think

1:06:24
we will be because it's such a, it's a project we're working on together with nobody else really. And I think it can be kind of isolating, particularly when you're working on it without each other. Like there are times at home and you are in that creative process name that we've been talking about where it's like, oh my god, this is amazing. This is average, this is shit, I am shit. And when you're in the depths of I am sheet and what am I doing with my life to say it eventually out in the world and people consuming it, I think will be really lovely. Like, I think it will be very overwhelming. So I don't think it'll lose that excitement.

1:06:54
And I think like the things we've shared in this project, and the essence of it is very different to what we've done so far. I think there's a lot of soul in what we've done so far. And now that love etc, is wrapped. And she's in the money's wrapping in two weeks as well. I think being out have like, be investing more energy and time into it every single day will mean that it eventually gets there. And I know it will get there. And I know it'd be great once it's done. But you I'm so excited for that to be out in the world because it feels like that's where a head and our minds and our souls are at the moment. And no one has any idea that that that family and friends

1:07:29
looks better currently running. I've got a few things.

1:07:35
It's true. I'm faking it babies ours. She's

1:07:40
the other thing though, I think we're super excited to push into video next year. Like that is a real priority for us in 2020. And it's just how we're going to do it at this stage. I think we're in a huge planning process of what that's going to look like. But that is very exciting to me to actually do something different. Don't feel like getting stale, or like I said resting on our laurels. I think it's really good for we pushing into new new territory. What do you guys excited about? Yeah.

1:08:05
upgrade of office, by the time you get a new place, you'll be the realtor open house?

1:08:10
No, I think we're just finding our phase. And just getting started. So we've taken 444 Yeah.

1:08:21
38 episodes, guess i 210.

1:08:23
I feel like it's we're in a good place. We're feeling good about us where

1:08:28
I think you're in a great

1:08:28
place. Yeah, I mean, part of it. I think part of it too, is it's like this, like the constant feeling that you want everything to be perfect. It's like ridiculous every single time. Every week, there's new things that were like getting done. And so I guess it's part of it is just enjoying it as well, which is part of it, which is like actually not looking forward to anything. And just looking forward to today and doing it and continuing to do it. And knowing that I guess we were happy with the fact of this slow growth that we're experiencing. As we get those little bits of success metric or whatever, we don't want to hang on to it too much. We want to just sort of keep keep focused. So

1:09:09
I sometimes I wonder, oh, it doesn't make me sad. But I think I will definitely look back in a couple of years and say the six month period would be like some of the best six months of our lives, like the most fulfilling six months. And it's weird being in the thick of that because you aren't acknowledging it. And I hope that we don't get three years down the track and say, I wish we held on to that more. But that said, maybe it is incredibly fulfilling, because we keep putting our heads down and we keep working and it keeps the work keeps working

1:09:33
will go to that. You know, that's

1:09:35
what I think with you stalking, right? So you have a ceiling. And a year ago, it was here and now it's here and you adding more things. And it's feeling not as crazy as it once did. But I was even thinking about three day deal we turn going home and what he has to think about and it's like we can't really turn off. But then I was thinking it feels nice that that it doesn't feel like that anxiety of if that was the reality was like I want to turn this off right now. Yeah. And so that's just that's a win for me not what not feeling like, I want to quit this thing.

1:10:07
here do you guys listen to with feedback? Are there certain people where it's like I think Renee brown talks about the you know, few people you keep in your wallet?

1:10:17
Yeah,

1:10:18
I think that's another really good question. Um, each other, each allow listen to each other a lot, because they have, we have very different we have shared skills, but we also have different skills. And that Zahra is really smart, to be honest, really, really clever. And sometimes she'll think things through in a way that I haven't so I really listened to her. To be honest as sisters, sisters are the biggest think tank that we rely on Evelyn and Klay, my sister and me at all, my sisters and Mia czar sister, so, so clever in their own different ways. And they all have really different kinds of thinking and analytical skills. And often when we face a problem, or we need to check in, we go straight to our sisters.

1:11:00
Yeah, they're really good for that. I think. I think our families are pretty good at like inflating or deflating our egos depending on the day. And both of which are very important. And so we go to them for feedback all the time. They're pretty good check in tool, because it's a pretty weird job. I think you can get caught up in negative and positive feedback. And for someone to sort of send to you It's really good.

1:11:18
What's the deflating bit? What is when does that come out?

1:11:20
What is the deflating bit? My

1:11:23
Yeah, it was not like we've ever got big heads. But I also think, if you take on, I think my mom says it all the time. It's like, the minute you take on all the positive stuff, you have to take on the negative stuff. Or if you take on the negative stuff, you have to take on the positive stuff. And it's kind of like the push for me to remove myself from all of it and see it as white noise. So rather than saying like, hey, you've got a massive head, it's more like, don't take any of that that seriously, because none of it matters. And so they're pretty big. I would say we've got a couple of people that we've worked with who kind of understand the industry pretty well. I mean, you guys have helped us out. Like, I'm not even just saying that, like the emails that we shoot to you with some of the dumbest questions people would piece themselves. It's been great for us, because we don't we didn't know how to run a business. We didn't really know what we were doing. All we knew was content. So you guys have been great. I would also say someone like Sophie Aubrey, who was our old editor at Mamma mia Monique boli has been great for podcasting. Those kinds of people who understand the industry a little bit too, and can help you when you feel like you're going a bit crazy. Yeah, Jamila recipes would be in a lot. She's been great.

1:12:26
Yeah. mom called me this morning and said, Did you really get a hiccup? She thought it was so hot. She said what? In a week or something. And

1:12:34
then she think it was good. She loved it.

1:12:38
Positive reinforcement.

1:12:42
Exactly. As the friendship groups changed much through like, in this current path, I feel like early 20s and all that sort of thing. You can those things change. I noticed you were on a big piece up on the weekend. Yeah.

1:12:57
Yeah, that was kind of like a heartbreak weekend when my girlfriends went through pretty brutal breakup. So we all went away for the weekend together to literally go to a winery and get drunk was the best weekend ever. But as far as friendship goes, I don't know, like, I feel pretty close with everyone that I was close with before channels was the thing, I think, maybe my group would be a little bit smaller. Certainly, because we don't have a huge amount of time outside of shameless no matter what, outside of what we do my words starting to get jumbled.

1:13:29
And that's fine. I know, I would agree that the friendships is still the same. But I think that the circles might get smaller, just by virtue of time and energy. And I think you we are incredibly selfish and a little bit self indulgent with the work that we do. And I think to have people around that are happy for you to go and do your thing and still be their

1:13:48
friends a very understanding of that. Like we are very, very lucky that we've got two boyfriends who are very, he said polyamory is my thing. Number one, Lucky boyfriends understand the nature of our work. And for Mitch, my boyfriend, it was a new thing, like we went to we were together before shameless was the thing. So this is all new for him. And, yeah, I think it's good to have partners who just know, instinctively that you need to be dedicating that amount of time and maybe I'll pull my laptop out at 10 o'clock at night and need to do something. So that's been helpful as well.

1:14:21
Yeah, I get it is just being around people that are patient with selfishness, because I do think we are selfish in the way that we live our lives at the moment.

1:14:27
I think every business owner is right. You have to come, you know, selfish, I don't

1:14:31
know why that's

1:14:33
Friendship Circle has really, really

1:14:36
does. I think

1:14:36
it's just a time. I mean, the funny thing is, it sort of doesn't feel selfish when it's, it feels like we're doing it for this community, or we're doing for people and like, that's part of it. And like being a team, right? Like, you're doing it for Michelle, and Michelle's doing it for you like so it becomes less selfish when it's a team.

1:14:53
It's a funny word he is might be selfish, it's not bright, I think, just maybe, yeah, I think it's coming to my attention more when I've had from chips that maybe have needed me more than I've been able to give. And I felt innately very selfish in those moments, because I've thought will be soon as my priority. And I don't know, I don't actually think I can shift to that. Like, I can only give certain people in my life certain amounts of energy. And I think that statement, objectively sounds very selfish.

1:15:15
This patterning though, from when you're a young teenager into your high school, light, high school into unit, whatever. It's like, Hey, there, you hang around people that you don't, you weren't really questioning the friendship or what they are into what I'm into. So my friendship circles completely shrunk. I have a bunch of people on the outside that are acquaintances that I just say, and I say hi, but I'm more okay with it. Having a kid really to

1:15:41
celebrate everything. It is funny, and I made this in the most humble way possible. But since shameless has had like a little bit of attention, and like a little bit of a following, and funny, it's funny how some people will write chat and want to grab coffee with you who you've literally haven't spoken to in 10

1:15:56
years. Okay, Brian, pick your brain.

1:15:58
Just want to catch up. Pretend that you're like being their friend for ages and like, let's go get brunch. It's like, hang on. I don't even know your last name,

1:16:06
like and also it's I think, the other thing is, when you circle does get smaller, you start to realise, like, I don't actually have time for my best friend, let alone.

1:16:15
Do I not say this to you all the time, whenever I think because we have food in a couple of industries, like we have a foot in the podcasting industry. We've accidentally got a foot in this like influencer industry. And there's a lot of social stuff that goes on with that. And I go to Michelle, I don't want to fucking go to this thing, because I would rather hang out with my friends. Like if I'm going to go and socialise, I want to do it with my best friends, because they don't get as I don't get to spend nearly as much time as I want with them. Because I would hang out with them all day, every day, if I could. Yeah, so with those kinds of events, it's a it's a weird industry to be a part of that one in particular, because it's like, work masquerading as socialising. And that can get very confusing, and I think we tend to call it the black hole of it, because it's like, don't get sucked into that. Yeah, the black hole. I know what well,

1:16:58
what have you been sucked in are just so many say it's funny. I think Gemma Watson said the same. If you guys asked her about it, that's just an interesting industry to have one foot in,

1:17:06
just that you end up getting sort of dragged into a bunch of so

1:17:10
I just think some some not. Certainly not everyone, not everyone there is a an interesting dynamic that plays out and the influencing world and sometimes I think, yeah, the visual aspect or all the all the optics of it can be very misleading.

1:17:25
Well, I think it's that idea, right? I just said it's like work masquerading as socialising. And I think with that comes a very complicated industry where your perspective is a little warped. And the relationships can be. People can be friends, but they also can be kind of work competitive enemies. It's like, it's strange. And I think you have to be quite wary of it. But the perspective thing is huge. I think the influencing industry is pumped with money, more money than anyone would probably realise. These people are getting handed things that nobody else is. And I think by virtue of that there is a lack of perspective, because I think that comes when you making a bad of money for doing a different kind of

1:18:03
thing. When someone sees someone as a friend of me, they probably

1:18:07
they probably an enemy.

1:18:10
It is it's a competition thing. Everyone's in competition. The same brand deals with each other. And it breeds a real competitiveness and a real animosity towards certain people in the industry. I'm and you'll see them cars together on Instagram and know full well that those two people do not get along. Because that girl got the brand deliver that girl and she's earning $200,000 for it. So it's that type of stuff as well. I mean, that's why I think that

1:18:32
maybe going back to a stereotype, what we like is maybe we've paved a different thing for ourselves, which feels nice, because it feels like we're in one of the few positions where we can actually be friends with everyone. Yeah, it doesn't feel like we're having to

1:18:47
consciously do that. So I think it is. So it's a reaction to feel that sort of you're looking, you know, to your left to your right and feeling jealous wife, they got that personal mind that, you know, I think that's an easy, natural reaction, but then you get to check yourself right to go. Okay, so if that's my initial reaction, and I didn't choose that, what can I choose? And if I can choose, that's awesome.

1:19:11
But I think the difference is that it's like, the luxury that we have is we're not like imagine, like audition, like people who do auditions or things like that. Or even if this was the last the radio landscape where it's like, we're a Breakfast Show. And there's another Breakfast Show.

1:19:26
Yeah. We're not in the business of being picked. And so the only time I think I put a trend, I put a spin on feeling like I'm looking over at someone thinking, look, I've got that and I'm pissed. Is that's actually a reflection on us. And where we need to be better. Yeah. And so if you can use that feeling as energy to go, Well, if we've decided to do this ourselves, we now what can we do if we've got ourselves here? And they've got themselves there? You know, no one's picking. Yeah.

1:19:57
I heard a Michael Bongo stina. Is this great. He's wrote a book called the coaching habit as one of the best names. Yeah. And he's gonna be, he's gonna be on the show in a few months ago, I was watching one of his videos. And he was talking about reframing negative storeys about people. And I'll probably butcher it a little bit. But the basis of that was that say, if it's Tommy, and you say all these things, like, you know, Tommy's and attention seeking horror, or they sort of, is it you know, obsessed about it

1:20:25
doesn't work? Yeah.

1:20:26
Basically reframing it, so it's actually you, you actually say that about yourself. So you say, No, like you are this and it actually, like when you say it out loud, out loud, like you're an attention seeker, you're this, it actually creates this level of truth in that I think for a lot of people, right? Like, we all have varying levels of stuff. And sometimes, people doing stuff for triggering that those moments.

1:20:55
That's totally true. Because I think the thing that you pick apart someone else in is probably your biggest insecurity or thing that you don't want to be that you might be something like that.

1:21:04
I think as well. There's also a lot of power in looking at why other people have the audiences they do and success they do and figuring out what it is about them that is so successful, that makes them so successful. I really enjoy doing that, for example, with Jodie Foster political with Jamila Rizvi with all these women in the media that I look up to who I'm probably a little bit envious of, but in a productive way. I'm not looking at them and going, she doesn't deserve that. I'm looking at them and going, Okay, what is it about what she does that makes her relevant and makes her fun to follow and fun to buy, like, buy her products and read her books, I think it's really good to look at people in that sense, and figure out what their strengths are and not compete with them. Because there's only gonna be one spot for that kind of person. You need to have your own spot and your own niche

1:21:46
that make you you and the success that they have won't be what you if

1:21:52
it's not relevant, because it's not you're not going to find it. Because if you start trying to eat into their turf, they're just going to ruin you anyway, because they better. Also they've got

1:22:00
Yeah, you caught tech house, you can

1:22:01
steal the house like it's on that. Yeah, there's only one of everything to figure out what you're doing, right.

1:22:07
I mean, I am very much wanting to like head down and stay in our own lane and like not look elsewhere. And it is pretty much what we do. Like I don't really listen to many other podcasts anymore. I listened to ones that I really enjoy for entertainment, but ones that are trying to serve a similar demographic to me, I don't even talk.

1:22:24
Yeah, we don't listen to any of our competitive podcasts, which some people might find really odd. We don't listen to a single other ones because we don't, we don't want it to subconsciously bleed into what we're doing or affect the way we do our show. So basically, since maybe like a few months into shameless, I do not listen to another pop up to podcast.

1:22:41
Yeah. I mean, I think it makes sense. Because even we've had moments where it's like, will say something, and then it will be like, oh, that actually think so. So yeah. And then because we but what the powerful bit of that is, how much content can actually change us. And so if we put in the right colour, and then I think it can be a really powerful thing for positive change.

1:23:04
It's interesting, because like the high low, which is a British pop culture podcast was one of my favourite podcasts ever. And I don't listen to it anymore, because I felt like it was affecting the way I did shameless too much. So

1:23:13
yeah, no, I was exactly the same. I just want to make sure that everything we're putting out is our own ideas. But they did a really good segment like a year ago on the concept of ideas. And I think that's the other thing that I'm very conscious of, it's like, you get this idea in your head, you need to be very self aware that it probably wasn't your idea. And think back to where you actually found that idea and try to credit as much as you can. I mean, I know I've quoted random ideas on this thing being like, I don't know where I found it, but it's not mine. But I think that idea in this space is, I don't know, not acknowledged as much. It's like, Where did that thought process come from? Because you probably didn't come up with it yourself. And I think the more we avoid podcasts that are targeted to similar places that the we're going, the better we're going to be and the better our work is going to be. I mean, sometimes people

1:23:53
need to not copy but need to replicate someone else's model to get the ball Rowley

1:24:00
like parodies. Like you think when I was a kid, and I was making videos, it was like, all rz adventure parody videos. I think there's a lot like that's all you've got at the start, right? It's like an Zahra, you're talking about Ira Glass and the gap, the creative Yeah, you know, gap. And it's like, there is the time when you start something where it's like, you know, where you want it to be, you know how good you want it to be. But you can't do it, for whatever reason, you can't work out how to get the camera to do the thing, that

1:24:28
that's one of my favourite quotes of I think, because it's like, you can literally say it was shameless, and I think the quote, I'm not gonna be able to quote it off the top my head. But Ira Glass speaks a lot about how creative people start with like a Spock, but they don't have the talent. And when you start and your work is basically going to be shit. Like, he doesn't say that. But there is going to be a gap between what you're producing and what you want it to look like. And I think if you go back through the hundred episodes, which is that gap is very obvious. What we wanted it to look like, was not what we were producing. But the consistency of what we put out regardless, meant that we could eventually get to a point where we're happy with but you have to push through that discomfort. We keep talking about that really unattractive discomfort, the darkness that comes from pushing out a product that people are kind of confused by

1:25:09
what's enjoying process, too. Yeah, if you didn't enjoy it, you're not going to build the skills. Yeah, it's going to be way too hard.

1:25:15
And I think it's exciting to to think like, you're at Episode 100, of shameless thinking about Episode 200, or 300, or 400. And just like, think about how you feel about stuff that you did 100 episodes ago, yeah, I think about how much growth

1:25:30
her opinions will change lately, like they will be stuff. I'm sure there's stuff that I've said on the podcast in the last few months, or the last year that I disagree with. Yeah, yeah. But hopefully, we have cultivated an audience of quite understanding of that. And also impressed by that. I mean, the more our opinions change this model, we all become, I think, yeah.

1:25:49
And it creates less drama in some ways. In the conversations we have, like empathy, like if you think about it, as we start to evolve and understand and meet people, say, the influence of thing. When you start meeting people and you start connecting with faces, and all you actually start playing the game yourself. All of a sudden, what you would have said, Episode 10, about influences. You're like, Oh, well, we actually do this. Yes. Yeah,

1:26:14
I think it is. We are certainly more empathetic, I think to people in that industry, because I think once you're on the inside of it, and we're not we're not influences. That's the thing. I think we have a taste of it. For someone to look like influences before they say journalists, yeah, like, really old, like, right. It's like, I really want to be known as a writer and podcast, have a farm notice that influence?

1:26:37
Because it's like we don't like we don't do that. Yeah, what

1:26:40
isn't it? I guess that's the thing is and people with influence, I guess. Yeah, that's right. And there's a certain top there's a certain type of content that has been created, which is that sort of very quick church.

1:26:52
We're not going to go on our Instagram profile in bikinis and parties with like, I don't know a hair removal device. That's not our kind of content.

1:26:59
Yeah. And I would say when influences because the only sponsored content you're doing Instagram is tied to podcast episodes. That's like a rule we've had from the start and if we are doing social content that's not tied to a podcast episode sponsorships, it's because we're ambassadors of it. Like that's where our line is. And I think that's for many reasons, but I think the first one is because we would always want to be known for the content we're pushing out as journalists more than anything else and the minute we money that the minute we lose credibility, I think what we want to do

1:27:25
going back to before though, I think we have been definitely more empathetic about people in that industry because I think having a taste of it you've realised how many layers there are to everything that you see on Instagram or layers there are two different storeys and the people themselves so I think even interviewing some of them and meeting them socially has definitely made us more sympathetic to what they do and why why mistakes might

1:27:48
happen. And it's like also what are people's options like if they've been able to make a business doing and it's like can we really credit like what is the other options option for paid its own so new

1:28:00
it's you know, it's

1:28:01
everyone's learning

1:28:02
if someone had been a shop that was selling caught you probably wouldn't I mean, you might say it's a bit light to do something like that but you don't really question it's like yeah, I see what they do. But then the business modelling a shop yeah if any shop coffee shop could be good. What I'm saying is it's an old business too late for sure. Definitely to life for example

1:28:23
really well online store

1:28:24
or cafe we're getting bogged down

1:28:42
DVD stole would be a little bit yeah.

1:28:45
There was something to sell JU into the state you guys into the stout Mr. Alger

1:28:51
it's a personal question because he I just obsessed with

1:28:56
Tara we've seen before the show terrible short term memory, love what I'm excited about this moment right now is not this moment. It's actually it's this moment in a year's time. I'll be reminiscing I'll be celebrating whatever it is that you guys have been working

1:29:16
on. been working on.

1:29:18
I guess I lack nostalgia mustn't lack it as much as you like it because I don't think about it enough. I think I have a weird relationship with Minnesota I lack a lot of people is because I think I look back on things as far rosier than they were. And that can be incredibly dangerous for present day because you can think oh my goodness, I wish my life was like it was

1:29:34
then George is gonna have an existential crisis.

1:29:37
memories can be distorted

1:29:40
Well, yeah, I think I do distort them and think that things will way more fun or way more exciting or way more social.

1:29:45
What's the opposite? really dark, really negative? You know, I think it's probably like, it's the same question of do you like fond memories?

1:29:53
That's exactly right. Because you don't remember like this bring things of loneliness or sadness that you might have felt like during those times? That's true.

1:29:59
I

1:30:02
just want to know whether you like milk bars. Grain frogs.

1:30:09
I'm not like a fence.

1:30:10
Do you guys play like net bone? Did you have like, I

1:30:14
know it's kind of funny. Some of the stuff I loved as a kid. I do not like it. Oh, now like I used to be so obsessed with that bowl and I would hate to play a game ever, ever again. Because I'm on a

1:30:27
29 actually in September for a couple of weeks. If you're creating a data

1:30:35
we can 97 and we can just add Tommy and Josh interesting.

1:30:41
Another interesting birthday.

1:30:43
what the deal is with the database when I didn't receive a happy birthday message from the Daily

1:30:47
Show was literally the day after it was your 97 what happened with it with bizarre thing he's doing two things at once. Why didn't Zara get a happy birthday message? I don't know when we we do the database. Maybe kid I remember he was like just missing on here. We just missed just miss our his birthday. Do you remember saying that but

1:31:09
happy birthday.

1:31:12
Can I expect like an email like

1:31:17
it's gonna be like, hey, it's my birthday.

1:31:19
Yeah, it's a bit of a not it's mine on Sunday, so don't forget.

1:31:22
Yeah. Oh, this is like birthday. So I was

1:31:26
a shameless hair cut actually. Just show my

1:31:29
birthday hiccup.

1:31:31
And you pretend it's just

1:31:33
four days before I'm about to see everyone I know. It's a big Father's Day and it's my birthday. So

1:31:39
jerking moment. Bigger present while I'm getting a fire pit.

1:31:43
I know what I'm getting. I'm getting five it's it's a you know, from

1:31:51
rusty Lucas.

1:31:53
Moving into the suburbs. He's got the room to be able to do it. Yeah,

1:31:57
I'd ask you what suburb Well, we're not live but we're going to all your 10 listeners

1:32:02
said it before bully.

1:32:05
I fell into a fight and fallen but I had a fire pit when I was drunk when I was like 16 and I have a scar on the back of my leg.

1:32:11
My best friend nearly rolled into one of the 21st

1:32:19
marshmallows Yeah,

1:32:23
we It smells in the girls trip away.

1:32:26
Actually, you've seen what I want is a sandwich make it like a Jeff omega into the oily you could probably do waffles to look

1:32:39
there is something really nice about just a fight because I I've only started drinking in the last year, which sounds depressing. Just like started having a little bit of wine or whatever. But I now I'm associating with like, I never really understood some things but when you drink I can understand the power of like being in front of a fire. Sort of glass of rain. I was

1:33:01
gonna say I said was it to you that I said the other day or maybe was my best friend on the phone? No, I we had this conversation. My best friend lives in London. She's like oh, I've just let my my mom you know is wanted to crack open a glass. I said it to you after we had this conversation. She was like oh, such a long day work hard to get myself a bottle of wine. I can understand why mom native the glass after parenting is all not like Yeah, yeah, same same. Oh my god, I need a glass off for a long day. And then I hung up the phone and I was like, Wait 25 with like, no stress.

1:33:29
Like, what are we talking about? Like, yeah, I can still understand.

1:33:33
Maybe a birthday celebration can be at your house. Right?

1:33:36
We'll get Gemma watts. Yeah.

1:33:39
Wayne gronk Yeah, if Jim is Queen hottie can we have like many good

1:33:43
actually stopped? Oh,

1:33:45
no. There's a girl hierarchy. So I want to know where I see it. Well, we live this is the hot thing. This is what

1:33:51
because I want to take away her crown know. So this is what happened. I cancelled all hierarchies about two two weeks ago due to some issues. And there was a lot of backlash from Jim and her. I didn't realise how much her audience has sort of injected themselves into house and so if she goes they all go

1:34:13
uncle train. Yeah. So what's a cousin or godmother? Or

1:34:21
what's secondary to like Wayne gronk. And I was like, I don't know what that is. What about like,

1:34:25
General gronk? That what's the one who's the hasn't? gronk? Who are the people who liaise between the Queen and the

1:34:35
princess? Oh,

1:34:37
yeah, definitely definite governor. The Governor

1:34:39
General. Me is pretty cool.

1:34:43
I'll be President gronk

1:34:48
Yeah.

1:34:51
We're excited for when you can announce things we should see got a lot. podcaster little celebration. They're just getting freebies, but it's in this moment for him.

1:35:03
Did you ever

1:35:07
remember having read this? Yeah, I've really said this.

1:35:14
Before we go

1:35:16
kill a Python. So you have killed? Yes. All

1:35:24
right. One dolla for huge killer pot.

1:35:29
Yeah, actually, you are the queen. To the moment what was the last night

1:35:36
he was one that I just dropped my fade which was antipasto pot of foods

1:35:39
and Michelle's hierarchies. And I haven't realised this with her is that she chooses a genre that the genres are the fact and the things that she chooses. Don't really make sense. Like there's a lot of like, black spots. That's

1:35:55
very obvious, clear,

1:35:57
to be honest, the more controversial the better.

1:36:00
For the controversial hierarchy. It's just the blue cheese go on that

1:36:06
category went number one, I think it was chairs number one. Number two was olives. big big big fan of olives. Oh, any? Any kind of? I'm not kidding. like olives. I could leave on them

1:36:18
the rest of my life. What about deep

1:36:21
down actually? number

1:36:25
two thing you can't have cheese as one

1:36:30
that's a great

1:36:32
name for themselves.

1:36:37
What's the next one that you do?

1:36:39
One now?

1:36:40
Oh, yeah. Short you wanna give me a topic and I'll do it this Friday.

1:36:46
You should do something really

1:36:52
cool in my life.

1:36:54
The Daily talk show boys they'll be turn.

1:37:01
Josh

1:37:01
definitely Yeah, right well looking forward to the last week right there is the the pizza that you have on bike that's like it's like a sealed thing

1:37:19
together definitely. And maybe hot chocolate

1:37:22
will be able to announce the release. I know

1:37:23
it's gonna be quite hot enough. I feel like last summer we get some July.

1:37:30
July it's actually I liked her an ice cream store for a long time. I got a virus on my wrist from all the top five is and you've done you've said that

1:37:39
my dad is a

1:37:42
true storey. I used to go with that anyway.

1:37:48
But also be a great hierarchy title.

1:37:54
If any ice cream gelato brands want to reach out and sponsor us I'll also say yes to smoothie brands. Messina. Messina if you're listening

1:38:03
to paper, paper, paper paper,

1:38:06
white liquidity.

1:38:09
Calm his email address at shameless. Just look at the top charts will see you at the top 500. So tomorrow

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The Daily Talk Show audience (AKA The Gronk Squad) are an interesting bunch. What we all have in common is that we’re curious, imperfect — but seek self-improvement. We’re open to new ideas, we can have a laugh at ourselves and love pushing against the status quo. We know we’re Gronks and we embrace it.