Explain "frame" and include examples, please

This is the one concept that I never quite "got." I mean, I understand it, and sometimes when I'm in the middle of a conversation I understand how I am framing things and how it is affecting the conversation, but I need someone to explain it to me anyway, like super basically. Frame 101. With examples.

i've done no formal NLP education, nor read books on it, but from my understanding the frame is the set of roles and their rules in the interaction.

examples: teacher/student. simply because someone takes the teacher role, a certain amount of respect is required. it is expected that one person is giving more info than the other, etc.

the frame in this post between me and you is that you are seeking information, and i'm giving it to you. any outsider reading this post can see what roles are being taken on.

in seduction there's always the chaser and the chasee, each person has their own frame. a certain girl can chase one day with one guy, and is chased the other day with another guy. her perception of the interaction truly changes beased on her different frame each day: what is perceived as a great sign of interest in one could be interpreted as nothing at all in another.

Basically put it is how you handle yourself/act in any given situation (body language/voice/tone/etc).

Sitting with hot girl who isn't your girlfriend at a party, doing nothing more then talking.

Girlfriend walks by and sees this and motions for you to come over to her... you get up and walk over to see what she wants. She gives you shit for flirting with that girl, even though you weren't doing a damn thing.

Lots of the guys that make threads in the Vag would apologize and swear up and down that they weren't doing anything and that they love their girlfriend... giving in to their girlfriends frame that they were doing something they shouldn't have been.

However, anyone with a spine would "I was having a normal pleasant conversation" and then possibly (for sake of the example) go back and start talking with the girl again. Totally ignoring the fact that it pisses off their girlfriend. Framing it that they weren't up to no good and it was a harmless conversation... and odds are (depending on the mental state of the girlfriend) the girlfriend would shrug it off/drop it, and take your frame that you weren't doing a damn thing wrong and there is no need to be mad at you.

Or like when you walk in a room and someone is acting a little weird doing something totally normal, not weird in anyway... but you can tell seconds before you walked in they were doing something they didn't want you to know about.

You notice it is weird because they are trying to frame it that they were not JUST doing something weird, but they are acting how they think someone would act that wasn't just doing something weird.. so their bodylanguage is still a bit off because they are shitty actors

Or like when you walk in a room and someone is acting a little weird doing something totally normal, not weird in anyway... but you can tell seconds before you walked in they were doing something they didn't want you to know about.

You notice it is weird because they are trying to frame it that they were not JUST doing something weird, but they are acting how they think someone would act that wasn't just doing something weird.. so their bodylanguage is still a bit off because they are shitty actors

(it's 7am and my brain sucks at describing things)

Click to expand...

Is that "frame" or is that "congruency"?

When I think of someone acting how they think someone in a certain situation is supposed to act, I think congruency. Like when an AFC or uncool kid is trying really hard to act cool, and he may be doing or saying all the same things that the "cool" kids do, but he just looks like a tryhard. Wait, that's different from what you're talking about, right?

Yeah there can only really be 1 frame in any social interaction. Someone always gets sucked into the other persons.

There are times where two frames can exist but that tends to be during arguments (though not all arguments have more then 1 frame)

Click to expand...

I remember one of the pickup artists saying the person with the weaker frame always gets sucked into the stronger person's frame.

Oh wait.

Maybe they said "the person with the stronger interpretation of reality always sucks the other person into their reality."

Or could "frame" be described as "interpretation of reality?"

I am confuse

I don't know why I'm not quite getting this. Every time I learn anything new I usually learn it all pretty quick but there's always one simple basic concept that takes me forever. I guess in PUA that concept is frame.

the way i see frames is who's reality and perspective are you accepting.

one example of a frame game is when a woman "calls you out". she'll say something along the lines of "a real man would do such-and-such". you, in turn, acquiesce to her demands as a result. or, you don't and accept that you're not a real man. either way, she wins. you're falling into the trap that there are only two options since that's the frame she set up.

so, you either accept that reality or you break away from it and make her accept yours instead.

i believe frame games go hand-in-hand with power plays.

however, it's important to note, i'm not all that well-versed in PUA stuff, so i may be off base on my interpretation.

I remember one of the pickup artists saying the person with the weaker frame always gets sucked into the stronger person's frame.

Oh wait.

Maybe they said "the person with the stronger interpretation of reality always sucks the other person into their reality."

Or could "frame" be described as "interpretation of reality?"

I am confuse

I don't know why I'm not quite getting this. Every time I learn anything new I usually learn it all pretty quick but there's always one simple basic concept that takes me forever. I guess in PUA that concept is frame.

Click to expand...

That's the simplest way to put it. Everyones view of reality is different, though everyone assumes the way they view it is A. The same as most peoples, B. The right way to see the world.

So yes, the strongest usually is the one that takes over the other person. Though if two people have strong frames then it's a toss up, and can change from conversation subject to conversation subject.

The kid trying to act cool by saying/doing what the cool people do is them trying to mimic the frame, but since they are faking it something will be off making it look awkward/forced/weird. Though someone who has a talent in "acting" (for lack of a better word) could easily pull off a frame that isn't theirs and have people believe it.

That's pretty much exactly what it is. Each person has their own "frame", or their reality of the world and the situation around them. If someone's frame or version of reality is stronger than someone elses -then that someone else will usually assume the other person's frame. I suppose in some ways it is linked to social proof, in that you look to other people for the right way to behave. Except in this instance, a single person with a strong frame or strong values leadership can impose their frame on others around them. For example, If you are being disciplined by someone in authority, their frame is the frame that sets the reality... not yours.

im 99% sure this thread is a repost of a thread that was also by falconer, and that xapum just jacked my example of sitting on a couch talking to a girl

There is objective reality but thats inconsequential because people can not operate on objective reality. All people have to work with is their own subjective reality. Frame control refers to the process of changing someones subjective reality.

For example, If you are being disciplined by someone in authority, their frame is the frame that sets the reality

Click to expand...

terrible example. nobody leaves the side of the road after getting a dumb ticket, and says man that cop was right, I was driving dangerously and liable to kill someone by doing 49mph in a 40mph zone! People with authority do not bother controlling the frame. Your subjective reality is completely irrelevant and they know it. Pay or go to jail, get fired/demoted or come in on saturday and do what I say. thats not frame control.

Frame control is one way a salesman could convince you to buy something you don't think you need. you know what the thing is and does, and they don't change that. they simply might say imagine x happens, as it likely would, wouldn't you be in trouble without my Y? by the end, you think you need it. you might have thought x was unlikely, but now without even knowing it, you believe x is likely. They didn't make you decide to buy it, they changed what you think is a likely occurance, or your reality. Then of course, once you think you need this thing, the only logical choice is to buy it.

im 99% sure this thread is a repost of a thread that was also by falconer, and that xapum just jacked my example of sitting on a couch talking to a girl

There is objective reality but thats inconsequential because people can not operate on objective reality. All people have to work with is their own subjective reality. Frame control refers to the process of changing someones subjective reality.

terrible example. nobody leaves the side of the road after getting a dumb ticket, and says man that cop was right, I was driving dangerously and liable to kill someone by doing 49mph in a 40mph zone! People with authority do not bother controlling the frame. Your subjective reality is completely irrelevant and they know it. Pay or go to jail, get fired/demoted or come in on saturday and do what I say. thats not frame control.

Frame control is how a salesman convinces you to buy something you don't think you need. by the end, you think you need it. They didn't make you decide to buy it, they changed what you think you need, or your reality. Then of course, once you think you need this thing, the only logical choice is to buy it.

Click to expand...

Yeah I was fairly certain he had this thread before too, and I knew that example sounded oddly familiar... think it's time to cancel my internet connection.

To me, the best way to describe a Frame is that it's usually only important to the person you're trying to convince/impress/etc. Sometimes a Frame is usefully to convince yourself sometime, e.g. a drug addict might be helped by thinking of a point in their life as "rock bottom", or "the glass is half-full", etc... But in most situations, a Frame is a way to control the argument.

EXAMPLE: You tell your friends why you think that a woman could never understand the "Ladder Theory" [this is your claim]
One of your friends says that you've got it all wrong because XYZ [he's trying to re-Frame your argument; i.e. trying to convince your friends that YOU are the one who has made the logical mistake]
You tell your friends that HE has got it all wrong, because he forgot to consider ZYX [you re-re-Frame... ZYX is the logical fallacy, or Ethos, or whatever reason that you use to discredit his argument]

So, basically, you can think of a Frame as a way to discredit someone else by undercutting their argument. It doesn't matter whether you say that they don't understand the original argument, or they lack the authority to argue with you, or whatever... It's an elaborate way of describing one of the basic premises of rhetoric. Call it "Logical Fallacy", or "Rhetorical modes of persuasion", or whatever...It all runs along the same lines. You discrediting or otherwise stating that your 'opponent' has made a mistake, and thus you are the one who's correct.

Look... All this is pretty much immaterial. Either you know how to argue or you don't. If you make a bold claim and someone else calls you on it, can you 'shut them down'? If not, you're fucked. Don't worry about Frames, just keep your mouth shut around people who can shoot down your arguments. But if the phrase "speech class" doesn't make you sweat, then don't worry about it...Continue telling people what you think they should know, and you'll be just fine!!!

To me, the best way to describe a Frame is that it's usually only important to the person you're trying to convince/impress/etc. Sometimes a Frame is usefully to convince yourself sometime, e.g. a drug addict might be helped by thinking of a point in their life as "rock bottom", or "the glass is half-full", etc... But in most situations, a Frame is a way to control the argument.

EXAMPLE: You tell your friends why you think that a woman could never understand the "Ladder Theory" [this is your claim]
One of your friends says that you've got it all wrong because XYZ [he's trying to re-Frame your argument; i.e. trying to convince your friends that YOU are the one who has made the logical mistake]
You tell your friends that HE has got it all wrong, because he forgot to consider ZYX [you re-re-Frame... ZYX is the logical fallacy, or Ethos, or whatever reason that you use to discredit his argument]

So, basically, you can think of a Frame as a way to discredit someone else by undercutting their argument. It doesn't matter whether you say that they don't understand the original argument, or they lack the authority to argue with you, or whatever... It's an elaborate way of describing one of the basic premises of rhetoric. Call it "Logical Fallacy", or "Rhetorical modes of persuasion", or whatever...It all runs along the same lines. You discrediting or otherwise stating that your 'opponent' has made a mistake, and thus you are the one who's correct.

Look... All this is pretty much immaterial. Either you know how to argue or you don't. If you make a bold claim and someone else calls you on it, can you 'shut them down'? If not, you're fucked. Don't worry about Frames, just keep your mouth shut around people who can shoot down your arguments. But if the phrase "speech class" doesn't make you sweat, then don't worry about it...Continue telling people what you think they should know, and you'll be just fine!!!

Click to expand...

Though there is obvious frame control within arguments or debates that is not actually what a frame is.

For example: You and I disagree on what we're talking about here. And though you could be 100% right and even backed up your understanding with your logic I have more posts and therefore a lot of people reading this are sadly going to believe my post over yours just due to the frequency at which I post my thoughts on an internet forum... I'm framed as someone that has some sort of valid input that I like to share.

So lets say for the sake of my example that you are right, my frame will still sway people to my belief of the subject.

terrible example. nobody leaves the side of the road after getting a dumb ticket, and says man that cop was right, I was driving dangerously and liable to kill someone by doing 49mph in a 40mph zone! People with authority do not bother controlling the frame. Your subjective reality is completely irrelevant and they know it. Pay or go to jail, get fired/demoted or come in on saturday and do what I say. thats not frame control.

Click to expand...

Just because their frame is given to them by their authority, job title or position doesn't make it any less relevant... if a cop says you were speeding, you have to comply. If your boss brings you into a meeting and has a sombre frame, you follow his lead and act serious. Likewise if your boss is laughing and joking, doesn't it set the meeting up on a different footing?

Isn't frame control just a way to instigate the effect without having a job title or position of authority?

Just because their frame is given to them by their authority, job title or position doesn't make it any less relevant... if a cop says you were speeding, you have to comply. If your boss brings you into a meeting and has a sombre frame, you follow his lead and act serious. Likewise if your boss is laughing and joking, doesn't it set the meeting up on a different footing?

Isn't frame control just a way to instigate the effect without having a job title or position of authority?

Click to expand...

you are quite confused. Making someone do something is not controlling anything but actions. Frame is about belief, not action.

if your boss is somber and you PRETEND to be serious, he has failed to control your frame. if you actually become concerned because of your bosses somber attitude then he has controlled your frame. If a cop gives you a ticket for reckless driving for chirping your tires at a red light, are you really going to BELIEVE that you were driving recklessly? probably not.

reality: you were going 56 in a 50 mph zone
officers reality: you are a dangerous reckless driver. this helps him sleep at night, because he would feel guilty if he thought about it as just ripping people off for profit.
your reality: you were doing the same speed as everyone else and driving safely and normally and this officer is just being a prick. this helps you feel better because you don't want the ticket.

now frame control would mean that one of you would have to sell the other. either you would have to walk away thinking you really should slow down because the officer said hes seen 18 fatal wrecks here in the last year alone, or the officer would have to walk off thinking you really wern't driving unsafely and therefore there was no need to give you a ticket because everyone drives high 50's here and it would be unsafe to be the slow poke.

frame control = controlling the way a person thinks about reality.

this couch is an old ugly peice of junk vs this couch is a cool ass vintage sofa

drinking 3 shots in a row is normal behavior at a party vs drinking 3 shots in a row is alcoholic only behavior

the facts don't change, only the interpretation. if you can change someone from one belief to the other, you have controlled the frame and the person will act upon their new beliefs, which will yield different actions then when they had different beliefs.