Usually, hostile take overs by banks are done with $$$ and lawyers and not guns. Are you suggesting there will be a significant financial assault on Delve residents? If so I'd love to see a detailed post on how it was done and what impact it had.

I run the ship supply program for GSF. I often use my personal ISK to backstop the program and to perform hostile market activities. Pretty standard stuff in bloc level warfare I would think. At least from our point of view. Just isn't talked about cause it's only a handful of players doing it. (with a lot of assets)

Maybe this is common knowledge, but it seems a lot of bloc warfare is funded by a small # of very rich players. Can you give a guesstimate on bloc funding breakdown by 1. isk from alliance activities (Technetium mining, taxes, etc.) 2. Player activities (ratting, mining, etc.) and 3. Rich player activities (CEO/Director 'salary/bonuses', stupid scale investments - 250b+, etc.). I'd be very interested in even a hand wavey guesstimate on what % of bloc activity costs (sov, super caps, ship replacement, whatever) are funded by each.

Usually, hostile take overs by banks are done with $$$ and lawyers and not guns. Are you suggesting there will be a significant financial assault on Delve residents? If so I'd love to see a detailed post on how it was done and what impact it had.

I run the ship supply program for GSF. I often use my personal ISK to backstop the program and to perform hostile market activities. Pretty standard stuff in bloc level warfare I would think. At least from our point of view. Just isn't talked about cause it's only a handful of players doing it. (with a lot of assets)

Maybe this is common knowledge, but it seems a lot of bloc warfare is funded by a small # of very rich players. Can you give a guesstimate on bloc funding breakdown by 1. isk from alliance activities (Technetium mining, taxes, etc.) 2. Player activities (ratting, mining, etc.) and 3. Rich player activities (CEO/Director 'salary/bonuses', stupid scale investments - 250b+, etc.). I'd be very interested in even a hand wavey guesstimate on what % of bloc activity costs (sov, super caps, ship replacement, whatever) are funded by each.

Usually, hostile take overs by banks are done with $$$ and lawyers and not guns. Are you suggesting there will be a significant financial assault on Delve residents? If so I'd love to see a detailed post on how it was done and what impact it had.

I run the ship supply program for GSF. I often use my personal ISK to backstop the program and to perform hostile market activities. Pretty standard stuff in bloc level warfare I would think. At least from our point of view. Just isn't talked about cause it's only a handful of players doing it. (with a lot of assets)

Maybe this is common knowledge, but it seems a lot of bloc warfare is funded by a small # of very rich players. Can you give a guesstimate on bloc funding breakdown by 1. isk from alliance activities (Technetium mining, taxes, etc.) 2. Player activities (ratting, mining, etc.) and 3. Rich player activities (CEO/Director 'salary/bonuses', stupid scale investments - 250b+, etc.). I'd be very interested in even a hand wavey guesstimate on what % of bloc activity costs (sov, super caps, ship replacement, whatever) are funded by each.

It's more complicated than that. It also varies from alliance to alliance. But in GENERAL.

Ship replacement programs are funded through alliance income. Tech/Ratting/POCO Taxes. Our finances are public, so you can see the exact amounts if you want.

SOV Structures/Fuel/POS's are also funded through alliance income.

Where it gets cloudy is the ancillary costs to war. Total war in EVE requires a great deal more than just #'s.

Example: Stocking the market in the front line stager. This is pretty much always done purely through private ISK. While some standardized fits may be stocked on contracts (we do this) and some is also private ISK, there are a great many more modules and hulls stocked on the market in addition to this. This is where private ISK comes in.

The other side of this coin is hostile manipulation. This also is purely private ISK, generally this means attacking the hostile staging market. Relisting critical modules for hilarious markup etc. This can also (and does in my case) extend to Jita. I may actively move major Jita markets as a part of war activity. Supply shortages are often artificial and caused by vast sums of private ISK.

Private ISK also is typically leveraged for super capital production. Supercap yards are hilariously expensive and this requires hundreds of billions of private capital.

So think of it sorta like a tight ball of alliance ISK, surrounded by a huge cloud of private wealth when alliances go to war. Everyone plays this on a slightly different level. I would say we do it better than anyone.

Posted - 2012.06.29 18:33:00 -
[304] - Quote
Stocking our war markets is largely done by private players, for a profit. Aryth will tend to backstop war critical items with either his own personal money or alliance money, though, so as to prevent excessive price gouging. We're fine with goons war profiteering, it's when they get piggish on vital equipment that things get ugly (for them).

And then as aryth noted, there are things like capital and supercapital construction as well, which is also privately run. The biggest reason for this, really, is that its a truckload of work and no one would want to do it for free. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful...

On a different note, congrats to Aryth and crew. This has been a hugely entertaining saga, and suff like this is one of the reasons why we all play EvE. This will only get more entertaining when CCP gives Jade Constantine 10 plex for reporting Aryth's twitter leak.

On a different note, congrats to Aryth and crew. This has been a hugely entertaining saga, and suff like this is one of the reasons why we all play EvE. This will only get more entertaining when CCP gives Jade Constantine 10 plex for reporting Aryth's twitter leak.

Wait, you don't have a matrix style wall of TVs showing Graphs of every possible bit of Economic activity in EvE?

Well, why not?

I can't speak for CCP, but that is what, but that's what the interior of the Goonwaffe Economic Cabal looks like.

I'd like to mention that its far easier these days to have monitoring tools collect and graph data points on a regular basis (such as Nagios/Icinga + PnP4Nagios - loving these two right now).

At Fanfest, it was mentioned that CCP is using the daily DB snapshot for its metrics, which will work, but is obviously time delayed. Do you have any plans to consider more active snapshots (say 4-6/day) or preparing queries that you can turn on for one day (similar to a network sniffer) to drill down better?

[Monitoring is one of my core responsibilities at work, so I admit all the new graphs I have access to through Icinga has made me like a kid in a candy store. ]

I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.

So, to get this straight, they exploited a huge hole created by CCP, they did this for 2 weeks, them and lots of their little buddies profited from this, not to mention the trickle down effect that affected positively and negatively many other players and the whole market in general, and instead of a ban, which is what the EULA says (CCP really needs to read it sometime), you're actually going to "award" Them multiple PLEX for exploiting the game? Wow. So with this pro-goon policy from CCP, above any of the rest of the player base, how many others at CCP are ex-goons, or goon sympathizes like Stoffer (aka Soundwave)? Not hard to understand the pro-goon war dec changes And the pro-goon exploit award of free PLEX. CCP seems determined to make 2012 more of an epic fail than last year, and the players numbers still haven't rebounded from last year. Well done. Another lost opportunity to show the player base that you know what you're doing, but all it really did was make CCP, what, 0 for 5 on major issues so far this year?

since when did 5 people = lots?

in the words of goons.. you mad bro?(in case you cant tell, I'm mocking you for being .. shall we say.. not the 1%?)

So, you're a little goon puppet too, or you actually think that ONLY 5 people were involved with it and benefited from the exploit, not to mention everyone else that took advantage of the exploit over the TWO WEEKS? In the words of people that can think on their own (aka NOT the goons) . . . you THINK, bro??

Posted - 2012.06.29 22:12:00 -
[312] - Quote
Seems to me CCP is just trying to brush this one under the carpet instead of accepting the fact they messed up big time and they're the only ones at fault. This is no different from the older insurance payouts which so many people abused of until it got changed. But classifying it as an exploit only shows a complete detachment either from reality or the English language. By their own admission:

CCP Sreegs wrote:

This can be compared to foreign exchange manipulation.

Now we have all heard of this before, sure. And it's called this for a reason. Ever heard anyone calling it foreign exhange exploit?

Maybe this is common knowledge, but it seems a lot of bloc warfare is funded by a small # of very rich players. Can you give a guesstimate on bloc funding breakdown by 1. isk from alliance activities (Technetium mining, taxes, etc.) 2. Player activities (ratting, mining, etc.) and 3. Rich player activities (CEO/Director 'salary/bonuses', stupid scale investments - 250b+, etc.). I'd be very interested in even a hand wavey guesstimate on what % of bloc activity costs (sov, super caps, ship replacement, whatever) are funded by each.

It's more complicated than that. It also varies from alliance to alliance. But in GENERAL.

Ship replacement programs are funded through alliance income. Tech/Ratting/POCO Taxes. Our finances are public, so you can see the exact amounts if you want.

SOV Structures/Fuel/POS's are also funded through alliance income.

Where it gets cloudy is the ancillary costs to war. Total war in EVE requires a great deal more than just #'s.

Example: Stocking the market in the front line stager. This is pretty much always done purely through private ISK. While some standardized fits may be stocked on contracts (we do this) and some is also private ISK, there are a great many more modules and hulls stocked on the market in addition to this. This is where private ISK comes in.

The other side of this coin is hostile manipulation. This also is purely private ISK, generally this means attacking the hostile staging market. Relisting critical modules for hilarious markup etc. This can also (and does in my case) extend to Jita. I may actively move major Jita markets as a part of war activity. Supply shortages are often artificial and caused by vast sums of private ISK.

Private ISK also is typically leveraged for super capital production. Supercap yards are hilariously expensive and this requires hundreds of billions of private capital.

So think of it sorta like a tight ball of alliance ISK, surrounded by a huge cloud of private wealth when alliances go to war. Everyone plays this on a slightly different level. I would say we do it better than anyone.

So in summary Eve's economy really is at the mercy of a plutocracy ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy ). Goons tight ball of alliance isk is stupidly huge I'm sure and if private Goonie wealth dwarfs that.... At least Goons spend on their members. Somehow, I doubt it's like that in many of Eve's more powerful alliances.

So in summary Eve's economy really is at the mercy of a plutocracy ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy ). Goons tight ball of alliance isk is stupidly huge I'm sure and if private Goonie wealth dwarfs that.... At least Goons spend on their members. Somehow, I doubt it's like that in many of Eve's more powerful alliances.

Well its not like burn jita, hulkageddon, OTEC and the ice interdiction from last year are all interconnected somehow. What kind of crazy conspiracist would believe THAT?

Ethilia wrote:

Do you have a link to Goon finances? My googlefu must be off today.

Your googlefu is just fine, but needless to say we don't typically make that sort of thing public.I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful...

So in summary Eve's economy really is at the mercy of a plutocracy ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy ). Goons tight ball of alliance isk is stupidly huge I'm sure and if private Goonie wealth dwarfs that.... At least Goons spend on their members. Somehow, I doubt it's like that in many of Eve's more powerful alliances.

Well its not like burn jita, hulkageddon, OTEC and the ice interdiction from last year are all interconnected somehow. What kind of crazy conspiracist would believe THAT?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Goon rule Eve ... yet. The economic strings of power are controlled by the << '1%' though it seems.

corestwo wrote:

Ethilia wrote:

Do you have a link to Goon finances? My googlefu must be off today.

Your googlefu is just fine, but needless to say we don't typically make that sort of thing public.

Then my reading comprehension must be bust:

Aryth wrote:

Ship replacement programs are funded through alliance income. Tech/Ratting/POCO Taxes. Our finances are public, so you can see the exact amounts if you want.

Posted - 2012.06.30 00:29:00 -
[319] - Quote
We provide this to all our members/allies etc. It's public. So you can see, at the large alliance level, it's a different game. Luckily for you guys, we mostly spend it pounding other null sec alliances to death. Which is as it should be. Only when we get bored do we go to high-sec and lay waste.

We provide this to all our members/allies etc. It's public. So you can see, at the large alliance level, it's a different game. Luckily for you guys, we mostly spend it pounding other null sec alliances to death. Which is as it should be. Only when we get bored do we go to high-sec and lay waste. Yes, that is intentional phrasing.

Seems to me CCP is just trying to brush this one under the carpet instead of accepting the fact they messed up big time and they're the only ones at fault. This is no different from the older insurance payouts which so many people abused of until it got changed. But classifying it as an exploit only shows a complete detachment either from reality or the English language. By their own admission:

CCP Sreegs wrote:

This can be compared to foreign exchange manipulation.

Now we have all heard of this before, sure. And it's called this for a reason. Ever heard anyone calling it foreign exhange exploit? Let the sandbox play itself out, small government yea!

Yes we're trying to brush it under the carpet so much we made a dev blog about it. I really can't even address how much this is just UGH and this is the basis of every tinfoil situation I'm meant to deal with professionally. I have no words."Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Seems to me CCP is just trying to brush this one under the carpet instead of accepting the fact they messed up big time and they're the only ones at fault. This is no different from the older insurance payouts which so many people abused of until it got changed. But classifying it as an exploit only shows a complete detachment either from reality or the English language. By their own admission:

CCP Sreegs wrote:

This can be compared to foreign exchange manipulation.

Now we have all heard of this before, sure. And it's called this for a reason. Ever heard anyone calling it foreign exhange exploit? Let the sandbox play itself out, small government yea!

Yes we're trying to brush it under the carpet so much we made a dev blog about it. I really can't even address how much this is just UGH and this is the basis of every tinfoil situation I'm meant to deal with professionally. I have no words.

(I'm honestly not sure there's much life left in this thread for productive discussion. You should see if you can strike a deal with Reynolds for a percentage of the sales you'll generate when you eventually close the thread.)-RubyPorto

Seems to me CCP is just trying to brush this one under the carpet instead of accepting the fact they messed up big time and they're the only ones at fault. This is no different from the older insurance payouts which so many people abused of until it got changed. But classifying it as an exploit only shows a complete detachment either from reality or the English language. By their own admission:

CCP Sreegs wrote:

This can be compared to foreign exchange manipulation.

Now we have all heard of this before, sure. And it's called this for a reason. Ever heard anyone calling it foreign exhange exploit? Let the sandbox play itself out, small government yea!

Yes we're trying to brush it under the carpet so much we made a dev blog about it. I really can't even address how much this is just UGH and this is the basis of every tinfoil situation I'm meant to deal with professionally. I have no words.

Let me tell you what's really infuriating! I have it on good authority everyone in CCP alliance has by far the best carebearing space anywhere! What is worse is that they are paid in a special currency, krona or some such, which has a fantastic exchange rate. They are paid massive amounts of this currency and allowed to exchange it for oodles of PLEX or, if they want, real $$$ like USD or EURO (I guess they need lots of beer and chips while carebearing in Reykjavik system).

The post on the Dev blog "I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system."

It shows as such a good warning "Do what ever you want and we will just roll everything back to pretend it didn't happen." Yeah Good deterant that one.

I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch.Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.

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