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@ Zach; There's a couple other walls/ wall ish pokemon that can outspeed (Deo D, Jirachi, Tenta) and plenty of offensive mons that are outsped (Reun, Conk, Mag, Ttar, scizor) so that rule of thumb doesn't always work, but I see what your saying about that as most offensive mons are fast while defensive are slow. It's mostly the middle speed mons that I mess up when using Breloom and should just do what John says... But I'm lazy and am normally doing more than one thing while I battle, so that's a problem with me having the initiative to check while I'm distracted by something / someone

^You ever have that moment you realize you forgot to give credit? Sorry Irra!!^

But, for the most part, it only runs 20 speed EVs. A max speed Breloom should probably outrun it, unless you're using Adamant...

Jirachi can be offensive, which is when it usually runs speed. And the offensive pokmeon you listed are all more of tanks, besides Magnezone and Scizor. True, they are all still offensive....I should of been more specific.

I think Forretress is overrated. Sure, it learns all 3 forms of hazards and rapid spin, but its pitiful Speed, SpDef, and a 4x weakness to fire doesn't help. Whenever I use it, a Specially-based move pretty much immediately spells doomsday for it, limiting me for only 1 layer of hazards. Its also set-up bait for many special attackers, like Keldeo and Thundurus-T.
Lucario sucks for me, too. It has some great stat-raising moves, like Nasty Plot and SD. But its WAY. TOO. SLOW. AND. WAY. TOO. FRAIL. Its taken down by common threats like Volcorona, Salamence, Heatran, Venasaur, the list could go on forever.

In my opinion, it has to be Jellicent. It's a very good pokemon in the right hands, but I rarely get to put it to good use. It's great and all, but I never use it right I guess.

And jireh, the reason you can rarely beat Kyogre and Arceus is because they both annihilate your team, obviously. Kyogre can outspeed all of them with a Choice Scarf, and it then OHKOs Shaymin-S, Victini and probably Jirachi, whilst Arceus can just get an SD up on you and OHKO everyone on your team. It's your team that is the real problem, not Kyogre or Arceus. Palkia does a good job at walling certain Kyogre (Thunder Wave Lum Berry Kyogre is an issue for some), and Arceus Ghost is a fairly decent check to Arceus Normal.

Though 4 of my Teams are OU capable, two of them are Ubers [shaymin sky can be substituted via land form].

While it is nice you gave the problem, despite that it insulted the way I built this team, it is quite a common thing for me. But seriously, why do many competitive battlers encourage [though often times comes from a small group] US NON COMPETITIVE AND SEMI COMPETITIVE PLAYERS to be all out competitive? As if does the high ladder rating meant like EVERYTHING?! I hope you're not encouraging me to e a competive battler. For I'd rather be a unique semi competitive player

Now I ask YOU this...
I already know those factors why I hated those guys, but if you could give me A REPLACEMENT for Manaphy, what Pokemon, that is good to use YET NOT Ubers, could it be? I wanted a pokemon that can perform the same role as a calm mind offense manaphy. Also, I wanted it to be a balanced pokemon when it comes to stats. Keep in mind aesthetics will also matter to me as well. So give me a cute yet deadly one much like my other team members.

Why do I ask this to you? If you see my team as the weakest force in Ubers, I may as well just hangout with OU instead.

Anyway back on topic, before in my early experience, I ranted in my mind that "AMOONGUS IS THE DEVIL OVERRATED VEGGIE!! Its Spore is too deadly!"

I mean it, I did not know how to beat it back then. But now, I have ways to deal with that pest (Camerupt use flamethrower. Cut this pun). Surprisingly though, it works on other tiers too to my surprise. Seriously, it somehow cowers at my Gardevoir possibly from synchronizing Stun spores [the toxic variant is rare]

While it is nice you gave the problem, despite that it insulted the way I built this team, it is quite a common thing for me. But seriously, why do many competitive battlers encourage [though often times comes from a small group] US NON COMPETITIVE AND SEMI COMPETITIVE PLAYERS to be all out competitive? As if does the high ladder rating meant like EVERYTHING?! I hope you're not encouraging me to e a competive battler. For I'd rather be a unique semi competitive player

I don't get it. All he was trying to do was trying to was trying to help your team become better. What does semi-competitive even mean? And who said that competitive players can't be unique?

Anyway, personally I think Ninetales is overrated. Game freak could've given drought to maybe Arcanine. Ninetales isn't really a strong offensive pokemon (without Drought) and its typing hinders it's defensive capabilities. I guess I'm saying this cos I can't use it all that well though.

Guys, lets not try to get into fights here. It will clog up the thread and people wont be able to post and get their thoughts in.
@T-Bolt Semi-competitive players are players who still play competitively but dont play as much as complete competitive players and dont care much about there rankings (some do though).
@Jireh AquasRegisteel was just trying to help xDD but I understand, I also used to be a semi-competitive player. And yes, Amoongus seems scary at first, but there are SOOO many ways to deal with it lol

Guys, lets not try to get into fights here. It will clog up the thread and people wont be able to post and get their thoughts in.
@T-Bolt Semi-competitive players are players who still play competitively but dont play as much as complete competitive players and dont care much about there rankings (some do though).
@Jireh AquasRegisteel was just trying to help xDD but I understand, I also used to be a semi-competitive player. And yes, Amoongus seems scary at first, but there are SOOO many ways to deal with it lol

no objections then-- ohh, now I know that one pokemon that annoys me again. I believe it is UU.

Gligar with eviolite. I never even Ko'd a single one as of now. Too bulky to tough even if you got an Ice move.

But anyways, sometimes, I'm just very wary of other speakers ... no thanks to the amount of trolls in the net these days. Keep in mind I place both the good an bad elements for a medium agreement. I already know from the get go my recipient wants to help. I'm only asking him on which side he belongs to (whether a troller, an unfair bragger, or a player for fun) and what do I need to fix my team.

Speaking of Teams, Hitmontop is overrated in doubles. As if ... he's a so-so pokemon in singles. But once Double battles come to play, Hitmontop just suddenly becomes ... OU! Oh my gosh! Sudden tier shift?

I just need more security from ... ugh ... arrogant trolls. I encountered tons just this morning.

Now I remember trolls, I bid word to Latios as the most overrated pokemon I've ever fought in OU. Sure the stone tyrant of Johto can kill him and his sister. Just like my issues with ferrothorn and Heatra despie their great performance, I'm terrible at using him as well.

^I've used Latios before...and I found the results to be underwhelming, compared to it's usage. It's powerful an all, but I'll have to agree that it's overrated.

Originally Posted by justinjiaxinghu

I think Forretress is overrated. Sure, it learns all 3 forms of hazards and rapid spin, but its pitiful Speed, SpDef, and a 4x weakness to fire doesn't help. Whenever I use it, a Specially-based move pretty much immediately spells doomsday for it, limiting me for only 1 layer of hazards. Its also set-up bait for many special attackers, like Keldeo and Thundurus-T.

Well, the problem with Forretress is that no one ever uses it right. I always see it on stall teams. It does not belong there at all; there are so many pokemon that can set up hazards better.

It's best for Volt Turn, actually. It guards the team from hazards with rapid spin, which is very valuable, without breaking Volt Turn's offensive pressure by hitting second with a volt switch and safely getting another pokemon in.

Originally Posted by jireh the provider

Speaking of Teams, Hitmontop is overrated in doubles. As if ... he's a so-so pokemon in singles. But once Double battles come to play, Hitmontop just suddenly becomes ... OU! Oh my gosh! Sudden tier shift?

OU and doubles are completely different. Fake out is poor is singles but and intimidate is okay, but in doubles, they're both amazing.

Originally Posted by T-Bolt

Anyway, personally I think Ninetales is overrated. Game freak could've given drought to maybe Arcanine. Ninetales isn't really a strong offensive pokemon (without Drought) and its typing hinders it's defensive capabilities. I guess I'm saying this cos I can't use it all that well though.

Who the heck uses Ninetales for it's offensive or defensive ability? The thing is a whimp, like Politoed, and everyone knows it.

The only reason it's OU is drought. Drizzle and Drought can be game-breaking, which is more then enough reason for Ninetales to be OU. How often do you see Ninetales without a Chorophyl user or a better fire type in the team?

Speaking of Teams, Hitmontop is overrated in doubles. As if ... he's a so-so pokemon in singles. But once Double battles come to play, Hitmontop just suddenly becomes ... OU! Oh my gosh! Sudden tier shift?

While i will admit that Hitmontop isn't the hardest Pokemon to play around, I wouldn't say Hitmontop is overrated. Find another Pokemon in Doubles that offers as much support as Hitmontop? Intimidate, PLUS Fake Out support, PLUS offensive pressure with moves like Close Combat (often Fighting Gemmed), Sucker Punch (sometimes Dark Gemmed), Mach Punch, and sometimes the random Bullet Punch (note, not all of these are always on the same set) or Drain Punch (which would, honestly, be very wise as it aids Hitmontop's staying ability), and then you have Quick Guard (on a predicted Bullet Punch or Fake Out, allowing your partner to take out or get a free switch in to those Pokemon), Wide Guard (protecting from common moves like Rock Slide, Heat Wave, Blizzard, Icy Wind, Surf, Muddy Water, and, recently, Earthquake) and even Feint, lifting the common Protect off of Pokemon that otherwise would have been safe that turn. Let's also not forget its formidable bulk; when fully invested defensively, Hitmontop is a Pokemon that will take a beating, as well as its Speed, a middling speed tier, allowing it to serve on Trick Room teams (very common), Tailwind teams (fairly common), and standard Goodstuffs (extremely common).

With Intimidate allowing your party to focus on its Special Defense, you can EV your Pokemon to take common Dragon Gemmed Draco Meteors from LATIOS, of all Pokemon, and still survive to hopefully KO that Latios (particularly in the case of Pokemon like Garchomp, Hydreigon, etc.). The fact that it also CAN run an offensive set, or even a mix of the two, leaves Hitmontop to be a Pokemon that you need to be careful for; if you mispredict it, it can easily spell the downfall of your team.

That's not to say Hitmontop is infallible. 220 Sp.Attk Togekiss can OHKO the Standard Hitmontop (252 HP/252 Attk). Expert Belt or Life Orb 196 EV Reuniclus OHKOs the standard Hitmontop as well. Unintimidated Pokemon with Acrobatics easily KO Hitmontop too (although good luck tricking your opponent to leave Hitmontop in on Pokemon like Crobat, Meinshao, Gliscor, or Scizor). And anything with Hurricane will likely OHKO Hitmontop as well, although I haven't run the calcs so don't quote me. Defiant Braviary is also a fairly good check to Hitmontop, ignoring Intimidate, OHKOing with Brave Bird. Not to mention Hitmontop's not really doing anything to defensive Special Attackers like Gastrodon (unless Hitmontop's running an offensive set).

Hitmontop is not infallible, and standard Pokemon can beat it. But that doesn't make it overrated. Hitmontop does its job very well, and in the first place, nothing can do what Hitmontop does "better." You always have to give something up. Intimidate Gyarados can fill the intimidate support, offers Taunt and Thunder Wave, but you have to choose with Gyarados; do you want Bulk or do you want Offensive? It will always be lackluster in one aspect or the other. Mightyena offers Initimidate and Sucker Punch, but lets be honest. It's slow and frail enough to get OHKO'd by any neutral attack. Salamence exists, but it is not at all bulky, and it is weak to common Ice and Dragon type attacks, most of which are Specially based. And then there's Scrafty; good bulk, same attack stat, but slower. Facing other Hitmontop will result in either Scrafty getting Faked Out or its party getting Faked Out, leaving that first turn entirely to the mercy of your opponenet. Let's also not forget that it's weak to Fighting, a common offensive type common due to the prevalence of Pokemon like Terrakion and Tyranitar.

As for the support of Fake Out, Wide Guard, Quick Guard, and Feint? Only Hariyama and Meinshao. So why not Hariyama? Same reason as Scrafty, except without the bulk. Why not Meinshao? Mainly because it's frail, it's worse than Hariyama in terms of bulk.

Hitmontop is, however, outclassed offensively by a lot of Pokemon, but what it does bring to the table is what makes it valuable. Hitmontop is a great defensive pivot that is still capable of dishing out on the offense. Great ability, great stats and great support moves that allow it to serve on pretty much any team; how is it overrated?

Quick note: Before you start thinking that I'm like, one of those super competitive players trying to put you down, don't, haha. I am not super competitive, and I almost exclusively play Doubles. I'm not fond of standard mons, and I'm much less fond of standard teams, but I know a good Pokemon when I see it. Doesn't mean I'll use it, but I do see their advantages.

Feel like you need a little more Pokemon in your life? Tune into our show!EPISODE 55 - SLOWPOKE HOLIDAYLooking for something Pokemon-related to listen to while playing through Pokemon XY? This episode is for you!!Released: 12/11/14

Yes, Latios is overrated to me too lol. It just doesnt do what I want it to do...and Kingdra. omfg. Kingdra. It's SOOO overrated. Its attacks pretty much do nothing, and even in the rain, it absolutely sucks. To me, at least :/

Overrated...........I would have to say Gengar, or at least SubDisable Gengar. He is a nice troll, but outside of PP stalling, he has trouble hitting some opponents even with unresisted coverage. The moves it use are just not cut out for PP stalling either. Especially Focus Blast with a horrible 8 pp

You Don't Say? I had no idea that a Choice Band Adamant Victini with maximum attack EVs and IVs that was baton passed +6 in attack and Skill Swapped Pure Power OHKO's Hasty Dry Skin Lvl 1 Paras with no defense EVs or IVs and -6 in defense under sun with a critical hit V-Create.

Blissey O_o, can't stand them. Haven't faced them competitively yet in game, but facing off against them in game via npc's is a pain in the rear. Don't like running into any Pokémon that can keep on using protect like moves, or recovery like ones either. That's a pain for anyone who might be on slower wi fi. There's a good chance that the battle might be dropped for taking so long -- due to the slow wi fi speed.

Looking forward to the release of Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire.

Will be training up the shiny Abra I have that's named Robin in honor of you. May you R.I.P.

Overrated...........I would have to say Gengar, or at least SubDisable Gengar. He is a nice troll, but outside of PP stalling, he has trouble hitting some opponents even with unresisted coverage. The moves it use are just not cut out for PP stalling either. Especially Focus Blast with a horrible 8 pp

Don't forget, SubDisable screws choiced mons over because then they will be forced to use Struggle after they break your sub (or even before, in some cases). Same with Torment. From the sounds of it, the combo sounds like a pretty good anti-revenge killer.

In my opinion, it has to be Jellicent. It's a very good pokemon in the right hands, but I rarely get to put it to good use. It's great and all, but I never use it right I guess.

And jireh, the reason you can rarely beat Kyogre and Arceus is because they both annihilate your team, obviously. Kyogre can outspeed all of them with a Choice Scarf, and it then OHKOs Shaymin-S, Victini and probably Jirachi, whilst Arceus can just get an SD up on you and OHKO everyone on your team. It's your team that is the real problem, not Kyogre or Arceus. Palkia does a good job at walling certain Kyogre (Thunder Wave Lum Berry Kyogre is an issue for some), and Arceus Ghost is a fairly decent check to Arceus Normal.

Actually, Arceus-Ghost by itself is not, in any way, shape, or form, a check to Arceus-Normal.

Actually, Arceus-Ghost by itself is not, in any way, shape, or form, a check to Arceus-Normal.

Agreed. E-Killer carries Shadow Claw (or arguably worse, Shadow Force) to hit the ghosts that are immune to it's Extremespeed. You will want something that resists Extremespeed but is neutral to or resists the coverage move used to counter it. Skarmory, resisting Extremespeed and Shadow Claw/Force while being immune to Earthquake makes for a good answer for it because it can simply phase it out, forcing it to set up again. Levitate Bronzong can often take a hit and is able to set up Trick Room (to make it revenge-kill fodder for something like Dialga) on it, but it can't hold up for very long against +2 Shadow Claws/Force.
Edit: While getting obliterated by a +2 Shadow Claw, Prankster Sableye can cripple it with priority Will-O-Wisp (that's unless it carries a Lum Berry) but you have to be reliant on luck for it to work.

Will-O-Wisp Sableye is not a counter or check to Arceus-Normal either. To quote something I once wrote to my friend:

Originally Posted by PokéMaster Forever

The primary method by which an excellent Übers team deals with Extreme Killer Arceus must not be through trying to burn it with the move Will-O-Wisp. Let's say there is a team like mine which has Espeon, Multiscale Lugia with Toxic and Whirlwind, as well as a physically defensive Groudon with Dragon Tail, but one of its other members, say an Arceus-Ghost, just so happens to know Will-O-Wisp. Trying to burn an Arceus-Normal with that Arceus-Ghost as a last-ditch effort to stop it from sweeping after one's Lugia and Groudon have been taken out would be fine. However, a team that relies entirely on that Arceus-Ghost's Will-O-Wisp in order to stop Arceus-Normal... in other words, a team which would be swept by an Arceus-Normal if Arceus-Ghost fails to burn it before getting taken out by it, cannot possibly be an excellent Übers team, because a team whose sole answer to Extreme Killer Arceus is a Will-O-Wisp-reliant Pokémon like Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Steel, Arceus-Rock, and physically-defensive Giratina is, by my judgment, a team that does not have a counter or check to Arceus-Normal, and therefore automatically fails, being an average team at best, since Extreme Killer Arceus is by far the best Pokémon and most dangerous sweeper in the game. You may be able to win many battles by shutting down the opponent's Extreme Killer Arceus with Will-O-Wisp, while ocassionally having to use the move twice against one that holds a Lum Berry, but climbing the ladder and reaching #1 involves winning not just more than half the time, but doing so consistently. If you just rely on Will-O-Wisp against Arceus-Normal, you'll sooner or later find a battle in which your Will-O-Wisp user gets taken out by the opponent's Extreme Killer Arceus before you manage to burn it, and then get swept, and higher up on the ladder, this will result in you losing a number of points which would require ten or more battles to make up for... assuming Will-O-Wisp doesn't miss again within those ten battles and resulting in you falling even lower on the ladder. Also keep in mind that the probability of two Will-O-Wisps hitting in a row, which is necessary to burn a Lum Berry Arceus, is only 56%. This is one of the primary reasons why I do not consider many, if not the majority of Übers teams (including many of which created by myself in the past), to be truly excellent teams.

Overrated...........I would have to say Gengar, or at least SubDisable Gengar. He is a nice troll, but outside of PP stalling, he has trouble hitting some opponents even with unresisted coverage. The moves it use are just not cut out for PP stalling either. Especially Focus Blast with a horrible 8 pp

lol i changed mine...
Anyways, were talking 'bout Ubers? YAY! Its my favorite tier And yes, Arceus-Ghost doesnt exactly "check" Normal Arceus, as Normal Arceus' commonly run Shadow Claw to rip through Ghost types that wont give a f**k about Extremespeed. Phasers/stallers are more of a "check" as they can send Arceus away if it attempts to set up, or just Toxic/WoW it.

While Arceus-Ghost by itself cannot check Arceus-Normal as already-mentioned, its Jolly Swords Dance set actually becomes a very effective countermeasure against Arceus-Normal when paired with Choice Scarf Terrakion. Contrary to popular beliefs, Jolly Choice Scarf Terrakion's Close Combat is not a guaranteed one-hit KO against even the frailest variant of Extreme Killer Arceus, rendering its efforts to revenge-kill Arceus-Normal possibly a failure as Extreme Killer Arceus gets the chance to KO it with either a single +2 Brick Break/Earthquake or two +2 ExtremeSpeeds while surviving a Close Combat. However, by pairing Choice Scarf Terrakion with a Jolly Swords Dance Arceus-Ghost, the latter can come in after the former has fallen and finish off Arceus-Normal with either a Brick Break or an ExtremeSpeed, depending on how much damage the opponent's Extreme Killer Arceus took from Terrakion's Close Combat (if the opponent's Arceus-Normal was taken down to ExtremeSpeed KO range by Close Combat, then it is a fast and frail variant and should be revenge-killed with ExtremeSpeed in case of a speed-tie, but if Arceus-Normal is not within ExtremeSpeed KO range, then it is a slow and bulky variant and therefore can be safely outrun and finished off by Brick Break). In fact, thanks to the fact that Team Preview shows no information about Arceus's type, then provided the opponent has not seen the type of one's Arceus yet, if the opponent chooses to use ExtremeSpeed rather than Brick Break or Earthquake against one's Terrakion, one can even switch straight into Arceus-Ghost on the second ExtremeSpeed to finish off Arceus-Normal, and therefore saving one's own Terrakion, which could be used later on in the match to deal with other Pokémon like Darkrai, Kyurem-W or Dragon Dance Rayquaza.

Note that Arceus-Ghost can also waltz into a +2 ExtremeSpeed and finish off Arceus-Normal if something can hit it hard enough on the turn it sets up, as you can see in the two following replays:

Latios isn't overrated to me, it's just that a lot of people realize it's worth.
I agree on the Jellicent though, I hardly see anyone use it right. It usually goes down after 2 or 3 moves, even 1 for the people who are clueless.

Weak stats besides defense, weak movepool, and a tail that looks like a Bidoof took a bite out of it.

Even with it's narrow movepool and sub-par stats as you said, Skarmory has good reason to be in OU. It's movepool, while narrow, has the all it needs to effectively to stall your team. Whirlwind is it's main way of inflicting damage, and when they have Stealth Rock, 2+ layers of Spikes and 1+ layers of Toxic Spikes on your side of the field, that's gotta hurt. Add it's great physical defense, Roost and it's own Spikes to the mix and they have a pokemon that, given the right team support, can easily cripple your team. It sure has crippled mine several times. The only things it really needs to watch out for are the numerous fire types in OU, which it doesn't fear much in the rain, Magnezone, who seems to be specifically built to counter Skarmory due to how effectve it is in destroying it, and the rare Cradlilly, who can't be phased out.

I find Venusaur to be a rather overrated Pokemon. Sure it outspeeds almost the entire metagame under sun, but its crappy movepool and 4-moveslot syndrome make it so that it's either easy to revenge, unable to cover all threats, or simply not have enough power. While it does have bulk, I don't see how Sun alone can make this Pokemon used as much as it is in OU, especially in this metagame.

Witness the truly awesome power of my claimed Gyarados.

Gyarados used Epic Awesomeness!
It's super effective!
The foe lost OVER 9000% of its health!

Originally Posted by Mister Zero

"I moved my Monopoly piece forward two squares when nobody was looking, but I didn't use an action replay so it's totally okay"

This is completely my opinion but i find constantly using legendaries overrated. I know they're good for countering other legends but i mean does anybody try to make a decent team w/o a legend? It's possible ya know. I'd done it before. It just take some good team-building.

This is completely my opinion but i find constantly using legendaries overrated. I know they're good for countering other legends but i mean does anybody try to make a decent team w/o a legend? It's possible ya know. I'd done it before. It just take some good team-building.

When it comes to competitive play that title of "legendary" really means nothing. Legendary Pokemon litter the OU tier and even lower tiers. No serious player would decide to use a legendary Pokemon strictly because it is "legendary". The title has no influence on its abilities in a battle, and therefore I personally would not say the conclusion of "using legendaries is overrated" is something you could really logically derive. But you said it was completely your opinion so I respect that :P