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There's a loop hole in 即死定義 as it only covers immobility after attack, not when the time of death occurs. It's improperly named, imo - maybe purposely so.

I don't see how that loophole helps you though. If the poison was taken after they entered the closed room, then it counts as a trap. If it was taken before they entered the closed room, they must have been paralyzed, which means that someone else carried them or threw them into the room, in which case they couldn't lock the door with the keys inside.

Since the keys were inside, the only way these closed rooms could have been locked (without some other theory) is by turning the knob manually from the inside. Unless you find a loophole in the 'none of the doors or windows have an autolock', this had to be done by a person.

I still think the real answer is the obvious 'the door from the boiler room to the courtyard was had no lock on it', as it isn't denied by the red or Beatrice's closed room definition in white text. I doubt ep4 will go over the previous chapters in detail, but it might rely on the previous red text.

I keep wondering something about Beato, if she considers herself non-human she could exclude herself from any count of "people", yeah? Even if there's a human Beato running around, under anti-mystery that Beato is the same as the one in the meta world, and she could consequently exclude her.

Similarly, even if the goat heads represent some actual force (I'm actually suspecting that "goat men" may refer to Caucasians or just other people from off the island if some wordplay that applies in Chinese is still valid in Japanese; add the three water droplets sign to the left side of "goat"), she would probably note them as non-human.

Maybe not significant and a little too low, but just bringing it up in case it's a blind spot.

I don't see how that loophole helps you though. If the poison was taken after they entered the closed room, then it counts as a trap.

Spoiler for a bit of baseless speculation, so I'm putting it in this tag:

I know it's a stretch, but Trap Clause in EP 03 doesn't cover poison, when poison was considered to be a possible weapon in the first 2 episodes for night 1. And again the trap clause is for 遠隔殺人 not for immobilizing victims. My train of thought is: paralyzed then stab then moved to a "closed" room. I doubt the murders were done in the rooms they found the bodies at.

Also I don't understand why poison has to = trap. A trap may have poison, but poison doesn't have to be on the trap nor does poison need a trap to rig it. If I served you tea with poison on it and watch you drink it in front of me, is that a trap? What if shake your hand and nicked you with poison needle? What if the poison bottle was open unintentionally and used in a dish and killed off 6 random people which it was not intended to do? I'm not saying that this is how it happened but poison = trap is not a correct assessment, imo.

Personally, I can't think of how 5~6 people got poisoned. Poison the the knob to Kinzo's room? Poison on Kinzo himself? Served something with poison in the drink/meal or on the platter/utensils?

If my stretch works (poison trap but does not kill thus covered in the Trap Clause - again this is a big stretch), then toxic knock out gas triggering the 即死定義 but not 遠隔殺人/トラップ定義, killed by stabbing and moved to where they need to be. Again this is a stretch. I'm hoping for something else that isn't as BS. I guess, the gas doesn't need to rigged by a trap if the room was already filled with said gas and the victims just entered it unwittingly as gasses like carbon monoxide are pretty hard to detect (no smell, no taste, no color). The トラップ定義 itself suggest that to be a trap it needs to be triggered, flipping that around, if no trigger not a trap. By the time people feel the effects of carbon monoxide, it's too late, they probably can't move to get out regardless if the room was locked or not. Household cleaners (bleach+Ammonia/vinegar, etc) might produce similar results in large enough quantities to knock out someone. Kinzo's study seems to be the most likely for this to happen as even if there's an awkward odor detected people may just ignore it because its Kinzo's room. Is it a trap if people could leave any time they want? <-- Another stretch, I know... ^^;

If the above is possible, I would like to throw in the possibility that the gas may not have been intentional but I think that might be covered in the 事故死 that Beato was about to cut down (stopped by Ronove before anything was really said). I doubt this line of thought but I'm throwing it up as something to keep in mind until it can be 100% ruled out.

Quote:

If it was taken before they entered the closed room, they must have been paralyzed, which means that someone else carried them or threw them into the room, in which case they couldn't lock the door with the keys inside.

We establish that at the very least the boiler room is not a closed room. I also have doubts about the chapel and the parlor as well. In any case, as long as one of the six rooms is not a close room none of them are.

Another possibility is doing the chapel last and leaving through a hidden door (this has not been denied).

Another possibility is do the parlor last and leave out the window. The narrator/Virgilia led you to believe the window was locked but it was never confirmed to be. Rudolf smashed the window before anyone could confirm it, and Rudolf is the only one to touch the window in EP 03.

But I agree. Probably 2 or more people involved. I've always had that stance.
How they were poisoned or immobilized, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by k//eternal

I keep wondering something about Beato, if she considers herself non-human she could exclude herself from any count of "people", yeah?

The problem I have with that is if witch =/= human, then furniture =/= human (7 stakes, Ronove, Seista sisters). Beato has stated many times in EP 02, Kinzo's funiture =/= human. Then we have to consider all the unknown members of the Fukuin servants as non-humans as well. It opens up too many possibilities as then it become unknown how many people are on the island. Beato's red text does say less than 19 people, so it's hard to determine if she really does consider the servants to be human in EP 03 >< (I hate you Klashikari ). Until it's determined absolutely impossible for the 18 known people on the island to do something, I think it's better to not seriously consider this. At least I won't.

I don't particularly think the "Beatrice believes she nor furniture are humans" logic could work, because using that same logic, "Beatrice believes she is truly doing magic", so she could easily counter everything Battler says with red.

I think that if there's a Witch around with a flesh and blood body, we have to consider her as a human being.

But the way the witches are shown to us, they are more like ghosts (the ritual is to REVIVE Beatrice, right?), so I don't think they count as (living) humans (that is, if they really exist, of course).

And this stuff of furniture not being human is a big stretch. It'd only mess the story.

Virglia herself before never had another name except beatrice, and the same for beato. In the ninth twilight it says that the golden witch beatrice will survive... THIS IS A MAGIC THEME SO.... beatrice couldnt defeat virgilia correctly and she aided enormously battler, so beato holded a grudge, also eva-beato would cause a great pain on him... WHAT IF.... beato told eva that she will be a witch at the 9th twilight if she kills everybody? then she makes an ilussionn of eva-beato as she isnt still a witch and lures virgilia to be properly killed by the siestas ? also...

1)She never handed the title to eva (she seemded extremely normal in the coronation ceremony).
2)She gaved her the title.

Beato would have killed hideyoshi and george in/before the 9th twilight as she loves to see grief, and eva-beato ( now full eva-beato) killed everyone and tried to kill beatrice, this is supported by the option 2 OR beato made the scam with ilussions and that explains why she appears at the tea party.

For me, eva killed everyone and was betrayed by someone who killed hideyoshi and george, probably Rosa the living dead... XD

I don't particularly think the "Beatrice believes she nor furniture are humans" logic could work, because using that same logic, "Beatrice believes she is truly doing magic", so she could easily counter everything Battler says with red.

I think the concept of the red text should be that it involves absolute truths: i.e., things that are true under both anti-fantasy and anti-mystery (as opposed to only things that are true under anti-fantasy, because that doesn't really make sense from her viewpoint).

Consequently, it should be equally invalid for her to say "I am just a human" as "I committed all the murders using magic" in red.

EDIT: To clarify, I don't think Beato can cheat with the red text simply based on her own beliefs, but if the truth value is different between anti-fantasy and anti-mystery, she can only make the statement in white text; she can't ignore one or the other. Basically, don't assume anti-fantasy is the only truth, because that only becomes the case when everything is solved. If something's in red, it applies to both truths.

I've been wondering... what happens if the first person to solve the riddle is Battler?
Wouldn't that force Beatrice to pass the golden witch title to Battler creating a golden "warlock" Battler-Beatrice?

Then what? Battler has to face Battler-Beatrice? Or you can't have two Battlers and Battler-Beatrice fight Ange instead? Kind of confusing... You get a normal new "witch" no matter who solves the riddle except for Battler...

EDIT: Thinking about it wouldn't that be a good way to make Battler submit... If you accept witches you get to be one and then get the power to "fix" everything... a tempting proposition no?

Comiket is coming closer and closer and still no updates on the main site. I wonder what direction episode 4 will take... I can't believe that in less than 2 weeks the game will finally be out, I can't wait! ^.^
(Even though I can't read Japanese anyway. ^^; )

If you count all of them, a whopping 295 tachi-e's were added to the game file between ep2 and ep3 (and 1 keiichi tachi-e was taken out). A great deal of these were never used in the game, like the copies of all of Beato's new ep3 expressions in her ep2 suit outfit, and a lot are just copies with guns added or clothes changes for Eva-Beatrice.