Katy Diamond Hamer: Sue de Beer on Discovering New Ways to Get Art Made

KATY DIAMOND HAMER: You've often been inspired by the symbolism and
fantasy elements largely associated with youth. Can we talk about our
shared love of unicorns and other mystical beings and how they have
found their way from your subconscious into your films?

SUE DE BEER: My first bodies of work as a young artist were graphically
violent, and shot in a neutral way. I looked at architectural and
wedding photography for a lighting 'system' - something representing
neutrality or trying to show detail rather than cast a mood. I had these
'set ups' that I thought of as being sculptural - they were of people
mostly, some spaces. But again overall pretty violent. Later I started
to work with sets and lighting that was more artificial, with color
quite a bit. But still with these moments of violence in them. I was
thinking a lot about America, and being young, and the edges of feeling
and form.

When Shamim Momin asked me to do a project for the Whitney at Altria,
that space was a public space, and she had restrictions on what could be
shown there. We agreed that I would try to do something that didn't have
images of graphic violence. I liked it as a creative challenge. So I
took up Unicorns pretty solidly for that film. To replace the violence.
Or as another representation of being young.

KDH: The earliest installation of yours that I experienced in person was
Black Sun (2004-5) which was on view at the now defunct Whitney at
Altria. I so clearly remember the castle like setting and the visual and
audible elements from the film that were both dreamlike and yet somehow
easy to identify with. In this earlier work, to what extent if at all
were the characters connected to you and your own experiences?

SDB: Oh I don't know. All of it and none of it. The texts for that film
are from Dennis Cooper novels - again with the violence taken out of
them. I asked Dennis' permission and he said that was okay with him.
Most of the texts I pulled from his books were written for male
characters, but I switched the gender and had the texts coming from a
female character. I liked the crossover.

There was a beautiful text that he wrote "I wish I had the power to make
someone love me - maybe a secret word I'd only use when I saw someone
special". Dennis wrote this for a gay male character. I did auditions
with that text, and had different young women come in and try it out. I
did that audition with my friend Titus who had just gone through a bad
break up. Some of those girls just floored him, and also me. Sometimes
it was really uncomfortable hearing this text spoken out loud. I could
tell when the girls were speaking that the text represented everyone -
Titus, these girls auditioning, Dennis' original character.

KDH: Having worked in mostly in video and photography, has there been a
preference in choosing the medium you feel is the best solution for a
particular idea? I'm thinking about the photographs --including bisected
bodies-- that were on view at Interstate Projects in Bushwick last year
- "opening to the sighs" curated by Dennis Witkin. I know they were
older photographs but they were so poignant, violent and somehow
timeless that I feel like they could only exist in the still format.

SDB: Yes, I agree. Those have to be stills. I love those images. They
are important works of mine. Or important to me.

KDH: Over the years, you've collaborated with editorial and commercial
projects. Something that I've admired is how the end result never feels
differently from your gallery based aesthetic. I like that your work
truly seems to be extracted from the mind of an adolescent; interlaced
with beauty, eeriness, sexuality and horror. Has that been difficult to
convince collaborators and directors of this importance or is that what
they come to you for?

SDB: Well, I have been lucky with who I have worked with. But also you
know it's hard for me to make anything other than that. I don't think I
could. So I think if someone commercial asks me to do something, they
know I will just be the artist that I am. No one has ever asked me to do
anything differently than that.

I love looking at people's choices - the decisions they make when they
get dressed, what they carry in their bags, how they decorate a room.
When I was living in Berlin I moved constantly, and stayed in many
places that weren't mine. I loved that - living with other people's
decorating decisions, and their systems for making coffee.

KDH: You currently have a live Kickstarter campaign that has already
surpassed your expectations. What has this experience been like? Can you
also talk about the project you will be funding, The White Wolf (2017)
and how it is a horror but also inspired by the aesthetic of the Italian
Giallo?

SDB: Well, every film I have made is inspired by the Italian Giallo. But
every film I have made is unique, and from a plot point of view they
really have little to do with the Italian Giallo. This film is a
werewolf film, and I don't really want to tell too much and spoil it.
But I am excited about the script. I worked with Nate Axel again on the
script.

The Kickstarter was something that I wanted to try doing. I remember
talking with Jongho Lee about Rob Pruitt's eBay store, and about how
much I liked it. That it reached different people - people that wouldn't
normally be able to collect expensive artwork, sometimes people that
didn't follow art. I can't afford to buy expensive artwork, so I enjoyed
a place made by an artist where people like me could participate.

And I had a few people that I respect do Kickstarters and, I don't know,
I thought maybe it was a quiet way to change the power structure for
what can be funded. Like Bernie Sander's "30 dollar donations". I think
Social Media has been a powerful force for change in that way - suddenly
groups of people have a sense of how large their group is, and how they
have shared concerns.

But you know I made the kickstarter, then I published it and panicked.
It's really public! So if you screw up everyone sees it fail in real
time! And they keep it up forever so I felt a lot of pressure to make a
film I felt proud of for my ask film. I am relieved that my kickstarter
has been a success - I forgot the part where I could really publicly
fail!

KDH: While many artists focus on work that avoids gender or sexual
references, I feel that your work is deliciously feminine and feminist.
It has the ability to disrupt gender norms often associated with women
by tearing down psychological structures and also delving headfirst into
what could be described as the feminine psyche. Can you speak on this,
what I would describe as a particular level of honesty or vulnerability
in the work?

SDB: That's really kind of you. As a younger artist, I hated the female
part of being a young female artist. I was happier just being a young
artist. I hated answering questions that defined my work as coming from
a female perspective. I hated having people comment on my appearance in
press or in person. My incredibly intelligent students talk about their
frustrations with having to "perform gender" or "perform race" and I
empathize.

I don't think about gender when I make work honestly. Unicorns belong to
everyone. But I do remember that it was a big moment for me when I sewed
those giant stuffed animals as the installation for Hans & Grete. It
took some courage.

Now I am older, so I don't really care what anyone thinks of me. I just
do what I think will make the best artwork, and let other people decide
what it means.

KDH: I enjoy the seduction found in many of your projects. There is an
enticement through witches, magic, dark metal and fantasy that pulls the
viewer in while also has the possibility to make some uncomfortable.
Discomfort in art is so important. What are your feelings around that
and the reaction or non-reaction of a viewer?

SDB: Oh I don't know. That's so nice also, thank you. I like to scare
myself I guess. And I love seduction - I'm really fascinated by it.

KDH: What is next? Where do you see your next project going? Is the goal
to get bigger and do a feature or focus on vignettes teetering between
the representation of life and death?

SDB: This current film will represent 2 or 3 years of my life by the
time I open the exhibition - I'm right in the middle of it, so it's hard
for me to see past this moment. One thing I would like though would be
to go back and re-master my older films, and find a way for them to be
more easily accessible and be seen. I am going to finish the White Wolf,
and then I really just want to work on that. Unlocking my 5 other films
somehow, so everyone can see them.