Festool needs to decide what market it's catering to. Hobbyists or professionals. I also think they should listen to the fog less. No offense intended by that I'm just saying that opinions on here aren't an accurate portrayal of what ever market they're catering to believes

How could they listen any less?

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I think requests for nonsense like radios and incremental and unnecessary upgrades come from (Not exclusively) here. Tool problems of course should be listened to but some of the feature requests aren't always the best

Brand loyalty? Are we to be expected to buy Festools simply because they are Festools?

If Festool wants me to spend my money on their product, built the best tool. If your going to charge me a premium price, I expect more in return. My local dealer has gone the extra mile for me more than once (thank you Ultimate Tools), but the brand needs to do more. If my tool breaks, I still need to get the job done. Abusing the 30 day return policy shouldn't be necessary.

My list of Festools issues:My ts55 just stopped one day. Finished one cut, no issue. Next cut, nothing. It's a saw with moderate use. I have a Bosch table saw, soft start circuit, feedback to maintain speed, never had a issue with its electronics in 15 years and it's been abused. Years of daily job site use. The price I pay for Festool, that's inexcusable. Quality is lacking.

I'm the owner of a Ti15. Just doesn't drill. Pull the trigger and it beeps. How does a tool like this make it to market. Festool needs a replacement policy on these. Hand it in, get a brand new drill of my choosing.

On drills, centrotec. A proprietary chuck system. Why? Just why? If your going to have a proprietary chuck, you need to have all the bits I'm going to need available at ALL TIMES. Not when you want. Not only in sets. I live in Canada, we use a lot of Robertson screws, Robertson, not square drive or square head. I need the correct bits. And when one of my drill bits wear out or break, I want to walk into my dealer and buy another, not wait for you to release another full set so I can pay a couple hundred dollars to replace a few dollars in bits.

Sandpaper. It's a consumable. I go through a lot. My time is also money, as soon as the paper performance drops off, it's in the garbage. I might be able to sand with the same piece for a half hour, but I'd be wasting time. It costs too much. You can call it premium all you want, its "sand" on Velcro backing. Drop the price in half. It's not like your giving the sanders away for free and making the money on the paper.

The power cords. Just sell all tools with the heavy cord. End of discussion.

In general, tool accessories pricing. Example. I bought a vac sys recently. Looked into the mounts for the mft. $366 each. I need 2 for both bases. It's a couple pieces of metal with a hinge and a couple thumb screws to hold it on. Over $700. And tax on top. I'll be making my own, thank you.

I'm fully invested in "the system", it's my job. Festool lets me do things I haven't found a way to do with any other brand. But my purchases are getting father and farther apart. I'm returning to other brands. There may yet come a day when I free up some capital and unload the Festools that aren't the core.

Of course any tool company can always make their tools better, more durable, etc. or offer better, more responsive service. But truthfully, the silence on the Kapex issue to me represents the biggest red flag. There’s a real problem and Festool’s [apparently] choosing to pretend like it doesn’t exist. More than anything else, that’s where they will lose me. Mine hasn’t burned up yet probably because it sees such light use, but believe me, if I feel left high and dry on this one I won’t hesitate to ditch more than just the Kapex.

There is no such thing as brand loyalty. If you are a discerning consumer/buyer you want to buy the optimum tool for your needs. If that turns out, repeatedly, to be products from the same manufacturer, you might be considered 'brand loyal'. But -- the moment that brand disappoints, they loose your loyalty.

Which apparently happens quite a lot (viz The Poplar shop and other FOG-ers).

Brands, or let's say corporations, fiddle around with cost vs profits - they try to maximise return on investment. etc. The thing that sets Festool apart is that is a family owned corp. Which might imply that they are more concerned about their reputation than a Chinese conglomerate that owns brand from all kinds of origins. That is -- until they try to build up profits to sell out, but there are no indications that such is the case.

The only thing that counts is that you keep your wits about, be critical and stay blind to fancy marketing and such.

There is no such thing as brand loyalty. If you are a discerning consumer/buyer you want to buy the optimum tool for your needs. If that turns out, repeatedly, to be products from the same manufacturer, you might be considered 'brand loyal'. But -- the moment that brand disappoints, they loose your loyalty.

Which apparently happens quite a lot (viz The Poplar shop and other FOG-ers).

Brands, or let's say corporations, fiddle around with cost vs profits - they try to maximise return on investment. etc. The thing that sets Festool apart is that is a family owned corp. Which might imply that they are more concerned about their reputation than a Chinese conglomerate that owns brand from all kinds of origins. That is -- until they try to build up profits to sell out, but there are no indications that such is the case.

The only thing that counts is that you keep your wits about, be critical and stay blind to fancy marketing and such.

Bert, it is my understanding that Festool and TTS were set up from a legal standpoint from the beginning to be a family business perpetually. I learned this from more than one reliable source.

I'm not sure the complaints on the FOG are necessarily a good indicator of diminishing brand loyalty. We tend to be a picky, bitchy bunch far more than the average consumer; especially when it comes to tools. My tools put food on the table, they better perform or the manufacturer isn't going to get anymore of my money.As far as brand loyalty, I am loyal as long as a company is making a good product that I need. And yes I'll pay a premium if I like the product enough. If the product blows then I'm not buying it. Luckily for me my Kapex hasn't had any issues. The Trion isn't any better than a Bosch but not any worse either so its ok. All the other vast amounts of festools have paid for themselves very well.My guess (and recommendation if someone asked me, which no one will ) is that festool may be looking at the hobbyist and corporate markets more than the contractor market. Corporate clients have money, need DC and like the cache. Hobbyists will justify the cost. If I were festool I wouldn't put too much effort getting the contractor market, some effort yes but not my main focus. It would be festool competing against the low ball bidder for tool dollars, i.e. home depot, menards, etc.

I'm not sure the complaints on the FOG are necessarily a good indicator of diminishing brand loyalty. We tend to be a picky, bitchy bunch far more than the average consumer; especially when it comes to tools. My tools put food on the table, they better perform or the manufacturer isn't going to get anymore of my money.As far as brand loyalty, I am loyal as long as a company is making a good product that I need. And yes I'll pay a premium if I like the product enough. If the product blows then I'm not buying it. Luckily for me my Kapex hasn't had any issues. The Trion isn't any better than a Bosch but not any worse either so its ok. All the other vast amounts of festools have paid for themselves very well.My guess (and recommendation if someone asked me, which no one will ) is that festool may be looking at the hobbyist and corporate markets more than the contractor market. Corporate clients have money, need DC and like the cache. Hobbyists will justify the cost. If I were festool I wouldn't put too much effort getting the contractor market, some effort yes but not my main focus. It would be festool competing against the low ball bidder for tool dollars, i.e. home depot, menards, etc.

I think you hit the nail on the head,Festool seems to be going for the dyi/hobbyist more than the contractor/carpenter.I NEED a miter saw that's lite,accurate and has a dust management system , but will wait till they get this ironed out.I have been at the counter of my local tool shop many times to buy the kapex , but theses threads have crept into my mind before pulling the trigger.A lot of saws fit the bill , but only one is less than 50lbs , and that's what I need.Charlie

I think it might be a long term trend. Festool seem to be producing tools these days that are either flawed or compromised in some way. I also find that the company's products no longer represent sufficient quality or performance to justify their rather extortionate Oz pricing.

In fact, just about each & every Festool purchase I've made since about the year 2000 has been pretty disappointing. So much so that I'm obliged to reconsider whether or not they can make the right tools for me any more. My RS1C sander, crude as it is has been performing flawlessly for me for the last 1/4 century, as has my SR5E vac (at least it did until it was nicked). My Deltex sander is also excellent, albeit somewhat eclipsed by the variety of inaccessibility accessories available from Bosch, & my Gen. 2 Rotex 150 has been exemplary. Likewise, my more recently purchased CT22 vac & 2 belt sanders have been flawless performers.

Granted, my couple of cordless drills were crap, but cordless tech was never really the company's forte anyway. When comparing their cordless tools to the opposition, they invariably seem to be about 3-5 years out of date in regard to features & performance. But as I said, it was never their specialty anyway, so perhaps that I need concede the point that one doesn't necessarily buy into Festo/ol's cordless range for its actual capabilities. They must have alternative virtues of which I'm blissfully unaware.

However, some of my premium priced later purchases have been especially disappointing. The Kapex & Trion saws, Duplex & Ro 90 sanders have been, at least in my hands anyway, grotesquely expensive white elephants. In my opinion extravagant wastes of money that have consistently not only underperformed my expectations, but also the performance and uses for which they were originally marketed.

In summary, a rather profligate waste of about $4K odd that I for one can ill afford. Unless or until the company can regain the ability to provide products that have a level of performance commensurate with their pricing policies, then I for one feel obliged to look elsewhere for better value. For me, the smaller but seemingly extremely high quality products made by & for Mafell may now be a closer fit to my own personal expectations.

There is no such thing as brand loyalty. If you are a discerning consumer/buyer you want to buy the optimum tool for your needs. If that turns out, repeatedly, to be products from the same manufacturer, you might be considered 'brand loyal'. But -- the moment that brand disappoints, they loose your loyalty.

Which apparently happens quite a lot (viz The Poplar shop and other FOG-ers).

Brands, or let's say corporations, fiddle around with cost vs profits - they try to maximise return on investment. etc. The thing that sets Festool apart is that is a family owned corp. Which might imply that they are more concerned about their reputation than a Chinese conglomerate that owns brand from all kinds of origins. That is -- until they try to build up profits to sell out, but there are no indications that such is the case.

The only thing that counts is that you keep your wits about, be critical and stay blind to fancy marketing and such.

Just from personal experience, reading thru forums, and talking to other craftsmen I know, there is such a thing as brand loyalty.

Go over to the GarageJournal forum and you'll see all the forum threads devoted to different tool brands, or even minor things like people who collect different colors of Snap-On tools. They also have threads devoted to Milwaukee, Dewalt, Bosch, Makita power tools amongst other topics. While some of the loyalty has to do with advantages, such as staying within a particular battery system, there are other people who will buy most of their corded tools from a single manufacturer, or in the case of Milwaukee and now Dewalt, are also buying the same branded hand tools.

Tools can be expensive. While this is not always the case, a Power tool from a premium brand like Festool can cost as much as a major appliance, especially if you add in the cost of various accessories which in many cases can only be used for that exact tool. If you find a brand that produces good, or excellant results, or which lasts an incredibly long time or exceeds your expectations, your probably more likely to purchase more tools from the same brand based on faith, especially since looking over the various specs from a whole bunch of different manufacturers for the same type of tool can take an incredibly long time, and you might not even readily find or notice all the information that is really pertinant for you.

On the other hand, if a company produces one or more giant Clusterbucks and you buy into them, and the company doesn't fix it right, the consumer is going to act like the brand just fell down a privy pit in an Indian slum.

When I was in college, gas (petrol) was $0.29/gallon and you got a free glass, oil check, tire inflation check, and windscreen wash if you filled the tank. Now, it’s $4.00 a gallon, you pump it yourself, no free glass, no oil check, pay for air, and no windshield wash.

Price escalation is a factor of hidden inflation and increasing labor costs.

Gas is only $2.75-$3/gallon. Even in Buckhead You can still get those services performed at a couple of small stations down in S.GA. , around the quail plantations.

Festool's price escalation is too consistent to reflect real world inflationary adjustments. Also, do you think all their assembly "team members" get a 5% pay raise every year ?

Kev , I just can't get to a place where I believe that my OF router is any faster or produces better cuts than any of my Dewalt, Bosch , or Porter Cable units. In some instances I like using the OF more, but that's a sensory thing. Ditto with mitre saws. And don't get me started with the drill range. The only place FT has a chance is with sanders. But Bosch is right on their heels.

. Gas hovers near $4.00 a gallon here in Chicago for Premium. Just a FYI...

I tend to agree with the posts that question Festool's desire to capture the contractor market. Knock on wood, none of my tools (except Pro5 out of the box) have made the journey to Indiana, BUT I do take care of my FTs more than any other tool in my stable. I don't necessarily baby them, but I do my best not to abuse them either.

I think not just this thread but a few others along the same vein are a goldmine of feedback for Festool if they want to improve their brand name in the market place. I know I highly value feedback from my customers so I know what I can do better. The worst thing that can happen in my mind is for the customer to say nothing to you but tell everyone else about the concerns they have with your product.

On another note I noticed a few threads about the RO150 plug-it socket. I replaced mine yesterday and the part was around $8.00 and took less than 5 minutes to install. I would advise anyone who has a lot of these tools to have one of these sockets on hand and change it out when it does not seem to lock securely. When I noticed the discoloration on the cord end I changed cords only to discover the new cord looked the same in short order. I ruined 2 cords before I twigged it was the socket that was the problem. I should have known because it did not seem to twist on very tight

I think for me Festool created an expectation with their ads and the higher than standard pricing that the tools are best in class and will last. Small issues like brushes cords etc excluded. I don't think they are living up to that expectation with some of the tools and it seems a lot of other people feel the same.

I don't understand the whole thread. I have always bought tools based on my experience with a particular tool or brand. I don't have brand loyalty, per se. I do happen to own quite a few Festools - Domino, CT, TS, MFT, sanders, a router, VacSys, but would never just buy Festool because it's Festool. I assume that Festool attempts to create brand loyalty just like other manufacturers do. However, Festool doesn't make the best of every tool on the market. For example, I would never buy a Festool cordless drill. Dewalt makes great drill/drivers and impact drivers, along with the fact that, once you buy a 20V Max tool, the batteries are usable for other cordless Dewalt tools which are also great (even outdoor lawn tools).

Since my experience with Festool and Dewalt and Porter Cable have been great, I will continue to buy those brands based on price and need in the future. Fortunately I'm set for awhile.

One more thing, forums and ratings online contribute to my decisions on tools, but they are generally not a great sample of experience with the tools as the posts and ratings from those with problem generally fare outweigh the posts from those who love the tool.

I don't understand the whole thread. I have always bought tools based on my experience with a particular tool or brand. I don't have brand loyalty, per se. I do happen to own quite a few Festools - Domino, CT, TS, MFT, sanders, a router, VacSys, but would never just buy Festool because it's Festool. I assume that Festool attempts to create brand loyalty just like other manufacturers do. However, Festool doesn't make the best of every tool on the market. For example, I would never buy a Festool cordless drill. Dewalt makes great drill/drivers and impact drivers, along with the fact that, once you buy a 20V Max tool, the batteries are usable for other cordless Dewalt tools which are also great (even outdoor lawn tools).

Since my experience with Festool and Dewalt and Porter Cable have been great, I will continue to buy those brands based on price and need in the future. Fortunately I'm set for awhile.

One more thing, forums and ratings online contribute to my decisions on tools, but they are generally not a great sample of experience with the tools as the posts and ratings from those with problem generally fare outweigh the posts from those who love the tool.

I don't buy just one brand either. I always review all tool makers to determine who seems make the best tool for my situation. Some tools I will use once in a blue moon and I don't want to spend to much on them but the tools I use daily I buy the best I can find. I think while I said brand loyalty it is more brand image for me. I had the expectation that if you bought Festool you could expect it would outlast the competition. I don't think that is necessarily true anymore.

The concept of brand loyalty for tools is ridiculous. I buy the best tool for the job and don't care if my tool colors match, however there are plenty of tool collectors here where color matching might be important.

I really like Festool. With the tools I have used I have been able to do things I couldn't before. But that being said, I also have Bosch and other companys tools. One has to be smart in ones purchasing. As others have said no one company makes the best of everything. But Festools are very very good. And I have not regretted any of my purchases.

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It's amusing to read about people that say they don't have brand loyalty .. who then rattle off several brands that they find reliable. Whether its "loyalty" or simply confidence in brand reputation ... it all boils down to the same thing, the brand name triggers a bunch of stuff that will either make you more inclined or less inclined to buy it.

Companies spend squillions of dollars on brand ... sometimes it's all they have! I think Festool earned it's brand reputation through solid reliability and accuracy over the years and the associated word of mouth that built it's customer network and the only way to re-invigorate that same network is to address the same values.

Not necessarily ... you can easily become loyal based on a number of positive experiences and far more quickly swing the other way based on a number of negative experiences. "loyalty" will be a different combination of factors to different people. It's NOT "blindness" its more like accumulated experience giving you a starting position.

Throwing words around like "blindness" and "obedience", etc don't really help things along here ... we're looking for constructive input towards improving Festool's interaction with and delivery to the marketplace that should also be a benefit to FOG members and current and future customers. At least that's how I see it ... not just another topic that becomes a dig at people that predominately buy Festool tools.

Throwing words around like "blindness" and "obedience", etc don't really help things along here ... we're looking for constructive input towards improving Festool's interaction with and delivery to the marketplace that should also be a benefit to FOG members and current and future customers. At least that's how I see it ... not just another topic that becomes a dig at people that predominately buy Festool tools.

Here are a few other words that show up on FOG often and are frequently used (but not always) as digs, to incite, or be dismissive. And don't generally help any discussion. Apologist, kool-aid drinkers, fanboy, sheep, etc. Not saying you can't use them. Just saying that they generally don't help lead to anything of value or productive in a FOG topic.

I think Kev nailed it. The thread should have been What can Festool do to regain brand confidence. Because that is what some of us have lost. I would love to see Festool step up to the plate and address some of the concerns because I think they are a company that has been innovative and have brought a lot of new ideas into the tool business. I love the domino it is a fantastic tool.

Fault the inter-web. If technology didn’t enable us to bring such a small group (FOG is what percent of Festool’s customer base?) together and share our experiences, there’d be less of a perception of a brand problem. To be fair I probably wouldn’t know about Festool either.

If we looked at raw data, how many issues have they really had? Is there’s actually a Kapex problem? Certainly there appears to be in our small customer-base sample set but what are the real metrics? Festool has the data and we do not.

The rust complaint is interesting to me. What’s the sample set of that in total router sales and how many of us believe environment has absolutely nothing to do with the instances that actually did occur.

Our perception is that Festool isn’t addressing product and brand problems. The reality may be there isn’t one or either. Data may actually support annual price increases. Market penetration trends may actually indicate that this thread is nothing more than noise.

The issue of the Kapex motor breaking down and sending it in has less of an impact on me as it would someone who relies on it for an income. What makes me pause is that after three years it becomes a liability. Festool could put a little more trust behind it by extending the warranty to five or even seven years to inspire more confidence.

I pretty much have all the Festools I'm going to buy at this point outside a Rotex. Maybe a cordless TS. I have been longing for a Kapex, even with it's ridiculously high price (comparatively). Re-engineer the thing already or stand behind it more than the standard warranty.

Not necessarily ... you can easily become loyal based on a number of positive experiences and far more quickly swing the other way based on a number of negative experiences. "loyalty" will be a different combination of factors to different people. It's NOT "blindness" its more like accumulated experience giving you a starting position.

Throwing words around like "blindness" and "obedience", etc don't really help things along here ... we're looking for constructive input towards improving Festool's interaction with and delivery to the marketplace that should also be a benefit to FOG members and current and future customers. At least that's how I see it ... not just another topic that becomes a dig at people that predominately buy Festool tools.

Reasons are be based upon facts and metrics.Confidence is often an emotive thing.Loyalty is an emotive thing."Blindness" and "obedience" are provocative words that point at the credulity of the person.