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Don't you just have to luv this word "clean". Last time I was asked about my "cleanliness" I told the guy I was totally dirty, like Pigpen..

..wherever I go there's this dust of deadly virus surrounding me.. Of course he didn't get the humor.

And recently this very good friend of mind whom I have come out to called and asked me out for coffee to talk. His problem - he met a friend through Gaydar that he really liked. They dated a bit and finally one night they were making out and ready to, er, move to the next step. And the guy dropped the bomb there - told my buddy he's HIV+.

This friend is in his early 40s, been there and seen all, lost friends to AIDS and has been totally supportive to me and a number of other mutual pozzie friends. Still, he used the word "clean" in ".. only then he told me he wasn't clean". He kept calm, they talked more and he had to abort the plan to have sex. He said he felt a bit gulity, knowing that kissing is of no risk, still he went to the bathroom and rinse his mouth with half a bottle of Listerine...

And he came to me and asked my "expertises" on whether to continue to see the guy or not.. I didn't think so even at the time, there's no way he would see that guy again (or at least with the potential of dating)..

In reference to drug tests (and other medical tests), 'clean' means that there are no marks (i.e. checks or whatever) indicating drug use. The answer is yes or no, not 'yes, he's clean' (no drugs) or 'no, he's dirty' (failed the drug test). Clean isn't used to reference the individual but merely the individuals test, in this case, HIV test (status). I've never associated being clean with anything but this and never thought of HIV+ as being dirty. I think, for the most part, that's a stigma/label we put on ourselves. Has anybody ever been asked if they were clean or dirty?

Dude, if this bit doesn't sound like something from a porn site I don't know what else..

I guess all we can ask for is a bit of tactfulness when folks discuss sexual situations.

OK, I'll grant you that description could have been phrased differently.

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Condom accidents aside, I go along with the line that the risk of getting infected through oral sex is academic, i.e., not a real one. I am not a scientist so I am not in the position to confirm it one way or another - it's just my personal experiences that all the folks who have claimed initially they got it through oral did eventually admit to risky penetrative intercourses, or at least would not rule out condom accidents during penetrative intercourses (which to me still sounded dubious).

Well, it's pretty clear from this discussion and many others before on AM that people who claim to have gotten HIV through oral (even hypothetically, as I do) are never believed anyway, and that the infection is automatically pinned down on partners that did unprotected anal, and it doesn't matter if those partners actually tested HIV negative shortly before the infection, they must still automatically have been the infection source, since they did unprotected anal, and there could not possibly be another explanation. With that kind of attitude, I don't see how science can ever hope to prove or disprove anything.

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The stigma is simply too strong that some health care providers told me that people would rather lie and tell people that they did drugs than admitting to unsafe (especially gay anal) sex.

That may well be true for some patients and their docs, but fortunately it's not universal.

In reference to drug tests (and other medical tests), 'clean' means that there are no marks (i.e. checks or whatever) indicating drug use. The answer is yes or no, not 'yes, he's clean' (no drugs) or 'no, he's dirty' (failed the drug test). Clean isn't used to reference the individual but merely the individuals test, in this case, HIV test (status). I've never associated being clean with anything but this and never thought of HIV+ as being dirty. I think, for the most part, that's a stigma/label we put on ourselves. Has anybody ever been asked if they were clean or dirty?

Respond to any cl m4m ad and if you get a response, you will usually be asked eventually, maybe not in the first contact necessarily but soon after. Many ads simply list it.

I didn't know this usage of "clean" about the drug test.Usually in personals I thought it referred mostly to STDs and HIV.

A few times I joked about it and posted some naughty ads titled "dirty - UB2". Guess how many responses I got ?

I speak for myself: Online hook ups are SO TIRED!!! Oh HUM! I watch X Tube and beat off and that gets the horniness out the way and I go about my day.

No one can be trusted. Sorry, even POZ guys LIE about their status because of fear of rejection. yeah i saw the "DDF HIV NEG UB2" ads but honestly, I would(if i was single now and I have done this before) treat everyone like their poz and avoid any unprotected sex. If you POZ and don;t want to reveal, act like a paranoid fuck and tell your hook up NO BB/RAW or anything Unsafe.

Seventeen percent of HIV-positive men who have sex with men (MSM) and nearly three quarters of MSM who’ve never been tested for HIV say they are HIV negative in their online profiles, according to a study published in the September issue of the Journal of Urban Health.

The popularity of sex and dating websites for MSM ballooned quickly during the past decade and a half. Relatively little research, however, has been published on how MSM use the Internet to find sex partners and how it influences communication and choices about safer sex. To investigate the online communication and behavior of MSM, Keith Horvath, PhD, and his colleagues from the University of Minnesota recruited men through banner advertisements on a popular gay sex and dating website, which was not named in the journal article.

The advertisements attracted 15,425 people, of whom 7,547 were screened for eligibility and 2,716 completed a thorough survey. Sixty-one percent of the respondents were younger than 30 and only 12 percent were 40 or older. Twenty-five percent described themselves as Latino, 15 percent as black, 19 percent as Asian and 27 percent as white. Twenty percent lived in small towns or rural areas, 49 percent in medium-sized cities or suburbs, and 31 percent in urban areas. A quarter of the men said they had only one online profile, 20 percent said they had four or more profiles, and 16 percent said they had no online profiles.

Horvath’s team separated the participants into three groups. In the first group, 469 reported having never been tested for HIV. In the second group, 2,110 said they’d been tested and received an HIV-negative diagnosis. The men in the third group, 119 in total, had all tested positive for HIV.

Of the men who’d never been tested for HIV, 72 percent said that all of their online profiles stated their HIV status as negative, while 17 percent of HIV-positive men stated in their online profile that they are HIV negative. Roughly 56 percent of both men who’d never been tested and those who reported being HIV negative said in their online profiles that they only engage in safer sex. This compared to 33 percent of HIV-positive men.

Eleven percent of the men who’d never been tested for HIV reported having unprotected anal sex with partners they met online in the past year, while 13 percent of HIV-negative men and 33 percent of HIV positive men did so. Sexual behavior was statistically similar whether the men met their partners online or offline.

The authors write that for HIV-positive men, “Nondisclosure or misrepresentation of an HIV-positive status may be a consequence of HIV stigma and fear that disclosing one’s HIV-positive status will result in less men being interested in having sex with them.” In addition, the researchers note that the higher percentage of unprotected anal sex among HIV-positive men may be happening most frequently with other HIV-positive men.

Horvath and his team also comment that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that roughly 25 percent of people who are HIV positive do not know their HIV status. That a quarter of the men in this study who’d never been tested claim to be HIV negative in their profiles and that as many as 11 percent of them engage in unprotected anal sex could have a significant impact on HIV transmission trends.

I can see the point of this survey but it's almost like telling me my mother is a woman ..

I recently have had some nasty exchanges on a Chinese language gay forum on a topic challenging the local health administration's data. It's a point I have been making for a long time - here they classify modes of transmission into homosexual/bisexual encounter and heterosexual encounter. I have been speaking to a number of activists before and challenged that how could someone get HIV from a "bisexual" encounter. One could only get it from one source that either that person is of the same or the opposite sex..

That's another topic but this discussion quickly turned into folks accusing HIVers still having active sex lives for being irresponsible. But when the table is turned, no one seems to think that it's irresponsible for folks to have actual sex lives but have NEVER been tested for any STDs and still assume that they're "clean", so to speak.

Folks usually have less explicit pictures in Gaydar, but try Dudesnude - what blows my mind is that you see people listing themselves as HIV- and saying that they "ALWAYS" have safe sex would post photos and videos of themselves barebacking..

The way I look at this is that having sex with an HIV-negative person occasionally messes with my head to the point where any idea of penetrative sex goes right out of the window (read: physical impossibility) - and that is with a monogamous partner of more than six years standing who I trust, who I still find hellishly attractive, who I know is aware of risks and who I may (sometimes) still think I am in love with. If the fear of infecting someone can do that, imagine what the fear of being infected can (and certainly should) do?

Most of these gay 'dating' sites aren't dating sites at all. They are hook-up sites and are about casual sex. I am not knocking casual sex; but you have to look at what people say in that context: uncomplicated animalistic fun that is based purely on physical attraction and getting off as quickly and efficiently as possible.

For me, good / fun sex is about being able to relax; so bearing in mind the tricks that HIV can play with the mind and that there is no such thing as safe sex, then I don't actually see a problem if there are people for whom uncomplicated means sex with someone who isn't HIV-positive.

You can argue that some people could be a little more tactful. If you aren't physically attracted to Asians, gingers or feminine guys: there should be no need to explicitly state that you aren't; because you can generally imply your preference, without causing offence, by listing what you are into. If you try the same approach with HIV, you can guarantee that you will still end up saying something which some people will need perceive as expressing prejudice.

As for the Gaydar guys who claim to be HIV-negative, but who have pictures of themselves barebacking: don't be so quick to judge. Perhaps they are specifically talking about right now, and casual sex, and it is the limitations of the Gaydar classifications which are the problem. I would certainly put 'always' in there, but it clearly hasn't been true in the past and it may not be true in the future; but it would be right now (if I was on there).

That's another topic but this discussion quickly turned into folks accusing HIVers still having active sex lives for being irresponsible. But when the table is turned, no one seems to think that it's irresponsible for folks to have actual sex lives but have NEVER been tested for any STDs and still assume that they're "clean", so to speak.

Actually, what you've said relates right back to the original reason I started this thread: the implication by (allegedly) non-HIVers that HIVers having active sex lives are irresponsible, and somehow single-handedly responsible for the epidemic. I think you're quite right: when the tables are turned and it's HIV-unaware/unknown folks having active sex lives under the assumption they are "clean", no one thinks that is irresponsible. It's almost like some non-HIV or HIV-unknown folks feel that it is completely the HIVers responsibility to provide them with a sexual landscape where they can play without any worry, concern, or risk.

Phooey.

Regards,

Henry

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

It's almost like some non-HIV or HIV-unknown folks feel that it is completely the HIVers responsibility to provide them with a sexual landscape where they can play without any worry, concern, or risk.

It's not almost, it's exactly what they feel like. They forget almost anyone who is HIV+ now was HIV- before at some point. The responsibility is both ways, to be safe and protect yourself if you are HIV-, and to be safe to protect others if you are HIV+.

I hesitated to post the following which came in my mailbox yesterday from a cl contact, but after your post I hesitate no more. It illustrates the point :

"hey, man. if u r positive, for public security, please be kind and dont have sex with hiv-. hope you are good enough and be considerated.then we would be safe. thank you very much."

This is actually the most polite message I ever got on the topic - if not the most grammatically correct. But if I had to meet only people who say openly they are HIV+, I might as well be a monk. The few ads I see from poz guys mostly say they want BB, and I just don't respond to those.

Am I the only one on AIDSmeds who finds more available pozhole on Manhunt than I could ever hope to satisfy? Folks living in the hinterlands complaining about the dearth of available poz guys have my sympathy.

But New York? San Francisco? Fewer than 1% of the personal ads in San Fucking Frisco claim to be poz? What alternate universe are we talking about here?

Maybe the point is to redirect some of one's madmoney and just pay the $35 for a Mancunt membership. Or maybe instead of hunting for "hawt d00dz" the focus should be on hunting "hawt fux". Sometimes the best sex is with some of the least likely candidates. Or maybe the situation is just so different for bottoms that I simply cannot relate. But down here in the alternate universe of Ft Lauderdale men are just too plentiful to waste one's time among the D&D-Free crowd.

And I gotta say that, even if I have left some encounters with ashes in my mouth, on-line hook-ups are simply the most efficient way of qualifying beaux. All your particulars are written down, easy peasy. When I was in full swing in 2006 I coulda been laid every night (and frequently was) with prequalified captious bottoms with child-bearing hips and small, uncut cocks, just what I like.

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Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Am I the only one on AIDSmeds who finds more available pozhole on Manhunt than I could ever hope to satisfy? Folks living in the hinterlands complaining about the dearth of available poz guys have my sympathy.

Apparently so. I have never hooked up with anyone on manhunt, let alone someone poz. I don't recall even seeing anyone local there that I was interested in so I cancelled my free account.

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Or maybe the situation is just so different for bottoms that I simply cannot relate.

Being top here I don't think that's the problem

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But down here in the alternate universe of Ft Lauderdale men are just too plentiful to waste one's time among the D&D-Free crowd.

I would say you are very lucky.

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And I gotta say that, even if I have left some encounters with ashes in my mouth, on-line hook-ups are simply the most efficient way of qualifying beaux. All your particulars are written down, easy peasy. When I was in full swing in 2006 I coulda been laid every night (and frequently was) with prequalified captious bottoms with child-bearing hips and small, uncut cocks, just what I like.

I agree about on-line hookups being the most efficient way. But it's still hit and miss !I met with 2 guys in the last week who had responded to my CL ad that included the sentence "poz and play safe only". Neither had any idea what poz meant, if you can believe that ! Or maybe they just looked at the pretty pictures and skipped that part. Anyway, it wasn't until when I told them in person that they figured out what it meant, and suddenly they didn't want to be there anymore.

I did get a call from one guy on saturday, from a blocked number. I can't pinpoint who it was since I gave my number to a few people that were potential matches day. He said he was poz too, and pleaded with me to bb with him. But I said I would only do it safe. He just refused to let me use a condom. That's where the conversation ended. I will probably never hear from him again. This seems to be consistent with most of the (very few) poz ads I see on cl - the guys who disclose they are poz in their ads do so because they want bb.

Did I read this correctly - you have a boyfriend? And you said you are a sex addict was that a joke or serious?

Why don't you move on from your current sexless relationship and find a guy who wants you to fuck him silly all the time?

All the rejection you experience on the chats seems like a heavy burden. Of course its your life, I dunno, just seems like if something degenerates into banging one's head against a wall, why bother? Life is too short -- there must be something more fulfilling to do or invest in, something with more returns and rewards?

Lucky are the cruisers like Bucko who get what they want easily, or the guys who have boyfriends who supply what they need.

Well anyway as I just became poz I dunno what I will experience. I used to have periods where I found a fair amount of sex on the chats. Other periods where I found it in real life.

Shouldn't we make a distinction between chats that are mostly about sex pickups, and other sites specifically designed for personal ads by POZ people. Surely there would not be HIV stigma in the latter - though who knows, and of course they would be other kinds of prejudice!

If i wanted to cruise chats for hookups again, I hope if I experience any quantity of rejection such as you report, Madbrain, I shift gears and follow my own recommendation for doing something better with my time and talents.

If my virus soon goes to zero, will I be tempted to not disclose? That's not in principal who I want to be. But not sure I judge those who do that. Doesn't seem like such a big deal if its just a trick.

Madbrain, since you always disclose, and you so often get rejected on sex sites -- I'm sure you have lots to give or share other than your sexuality, maybe a change of venue and or goal??. Or maybe give up being a "sex addict"? Or don't disclose.

Some of the older guys piped in with the relief that comes with simply not being interested in personal ads / dating / random sex, whatever... anymore.

Would be nice to hear from more guys who have had HIV for years -- how they may have evolved if they were ever involved in personal ads, chats, internet dating / sex.

best to all

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Lucky are the cruisers like Bucko who get what they want easily, or the guys who have boyfriends who supply what they need.

Even luckier are the guys who don't have to choose! Seriously, I've not encountered much rejection from online hookup sites due to my HIV+ status. There seem to be quite a few guys, in this area at least, that are HIV+ and prefer other HIV+ guys. It sure makes things easier. For some reason, a guy that's HIV+ is simply more desirable to me (assuming he's desirable in the first place).

Some of the older guys piped in with the relief that comes with simply not being interested in personal ads / dating / random sex, whatever... anymore.

Would be nice to hear from more guys who have had HIV for years -- how they may have evolved if they were ever involved in personal ads, chats, internet dating / sex.

As someone who is 44 years old and has had HIV for 19+ years, I suppose I am one of the "older guys" you are referring to. I'm certainly still interested in dating, so I guess I haven't found any "relief" from that. However, I haven't found that personal ads are an effective means of getting to know people for dating. From what others have said here, they are likely a fairly efficient means of meeting people for sex. It depends on what your goal is.

If I have "evolved" since having HIV for years, I suppose this is one way. I've recognized that, for me, sex comes further along in the course of getting to know someone, rather than right from the git go. Not that I don't think about sex frequently, because I do (man, do I!). I have to admit to being a bit envious of those who can jump right in and enjoy a roll in the hay. For me, the problem there is that the generally brief nature of such an encounter leaves me with an extreme emptiness that reinforces some of the relationships I had a kid (specifically, with my Mom and Dad).

So I can say that I've learned this about myself over the years. Of course, I probably would have learned this whether or not I was HIV+ (but being positive so long, it's hard to remember another frame of reference). I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for, but mecch, but since you asked.

Regards,

Henry

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

"It's a website where you connect with your friends, and make new friends... but, you know, without having to actually talk to anyone." - Boom Boom, X-Men : Manifest Destiny

LOL. This sorta sums up my experience with personal ad websites. I find that people rarely want to meet and talk.

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Thanks for sharing. It's true what you said about learning things with time, regardless of your HIV status. Many gay guys and including myself feel that sort of emptiness to hooking up just for sex. But it is pretty easy and even easier if you are HIV negative, or, as described above, ignorant and "presumed" HIV negative. Just as I suppose its easier if you are a total stud and harder if you are average or have some handicap or whatever.

My ex and I had an open relationship and he got tired of tricks long before I did - he wanted real relationships with other people, and with me too. (actually he wanted tricks, and lovers, AND me, greedy bastard!) I only wanted tricks and long-term strictly fuck buddies (and some very strick fuckbuddies at that, hehehe) under the guise that it was more respectful of him, and also it just seemed less complicated and time consuming than running a few human and intimate sex relations concurrently.

So apologies, I'm sure I projected some of my own experiences and fears onto you, Madbrain, about negotiating cruising for sex through chats and ads in addition to a relation, and in addition to being POZ. My exboyfriend and i weren't breaking up but also werent fucking too much and we were both looking elsewhere and it all just got too complicated and people got hurt.

Somehow, without judging others, I think some common sense might work out for me in the future - either being a sex cruiser, or being in a relationship. Doing both didn't work in the long run as a HIV neg guy, and now life seems more complicated as a HIV positive guy so why complicate it even further? I had this wonderful woman generalist MD when I lived in new york and sorry for the stereotype but she was big, beautiful, black and she used to say the most common sense things to me, like "Honey, do you really need all that sex, it's tearing you down" or one time when i was getting all complicated with eating control "honey, you're too thin, now go get yourself a meatball sub and stop all this tutti frutti tofu nonsense".

Forgive my pyschobable, but, isn't stress and rejection and feeling empty or used (by example, frustrating contacts through ignorant or offensive or brutal chat/personal ad routes) counterproductive to a good prognosis with HIV? AIDS is caused by HIV, and HIV is a virus that is transmissable, plain and simple. But aren't there often too many instances in which transmission is related to doing something other than our common sense might approve.

Emotional states, stress, the environments we put ourselves in, the people and actions we put in our lives. We need true, authentic, respectful, people around us, as pozzies, no? Not to mention delightful and caring people. Personal ads and hook up sites are filled with good and bad, but the bad can be so delusional!

I asked my specialist about this pyschobable of mine and he said the far MOST important thing for staying healthy as a poz was adherence to HIV treatment. He said, for example, the studies on depression and HIV progression aren't convincing for treated pozzies.

I dunno. I was REALLY impressed by the statistics about "unknown status" and thus false HIV negatives on gay chats. I guess we all suspect that and act accordingly. But over the years, and over hundreds of hook ups, I was lulled into false security and false confidence in other's people's knowledge about their own bodies. STUPID STUPID me.

The gay chat / hook up site most popular in my country has NO place to indicate HIV status. But extremely detailed options... for dick size, tatoo placements, various sneaker fetishes, etc.... Is "practices safe sex?" answered as "negotiable" a code for MAYBE poz? Must we become semioticians to ferret out the other pozzies???

I just did the search and there are pitifully few guys who mention POZ status in their profiles and those people of course don't have pics. Far cry and far distance from this American Manhunt, i see!

Since we pozzies have enough to worry about, what about we don't attempt to change something that is never going to change - such as CHAT / HOOK UP routes that are "in denial" about their own clientele. These chats are businesses, not social services, after all, - they arent made to make pozzies welcome!! And we can't bemoan chat/hook up sites that don't personally work for us, cause we aren't sexy hung studs or cause we live in the boondocks where pozzies live in hiding, etc.. We can't control or change any of that.

Choose your forum?? Some guy wrote in another thread a REALLY beautiful touching story about meeting a great guy and new love on a POZ personal ad site. Another guy said the poz sites are as filled with desperates and deluded as any other site.

I can't see how a POZ site could EVER work in my country -- re: hiv stigma and the high value placed on discretion. Still they seem like a good idea. Maybe I will do something about getting something like that started in my country...

Or maybe I'll just garden and cook and work and live and see what great dude crosses my path in flesh and blood and personal ads be damned.

Best to all

« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 03:12:46 PM by mecch »

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Last week I decided to put an end to my life without sex . I snapped a few naked pics with my web cam , found a site called Squirt that offered local opportunities for hookups and joined with the best intentions of finally getting laid .

It all is going perfectly and I got 16 emails the first day . When I sign on I was bombarded with chat invitations from guys that were eager to hookup for sex , others liked my pics and wanted to do the web cam thing only , because of my hiv status .

When it came down to it I totally wimped out and could not follow through on a hookup for sex with someone on the quick . I had to take a time out and think about it some . After a little soul searching I feel what I really want is to meet some body POZ with similar intrest that is willing to chat and get to know each other before I can feel comfortable enough for sex .

I have met quite a few guys that feel the same way as I do and this has turned into a positive experience for me . In the mean time I have my needs met by chatting and swapping photos and home made movies I like to make .

Hmm, I gotta get me some of that gel, if it'll turn me into a highly sought after, big squirting, home-movie porno star! (Hey, I heard it shrinks balls? True? Well, by any chance it makes dicks bigger? Or does your dick look bigger cause your balls get smaller...)

Good for you for reflecting on your experience! Reading this thread I decided to put up a totally obviously poz bio on a gay chat and to reflect on my experience in the next weeks with that. Thanks for sharing your inspiring gambit!

Hey this is kind of a nonsequitor, but I've only been poz a few months and only treated a few weeks but why are friends (who dont know) saying I look sexy these days??? Hmm maybe I should get me some of that androgel afterall.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Sad but true , the encounter that led to my seroconversion was an internet hookup with a sexy impotent horse hung guy equipped with a convenient injectable remedy , which all led to my content feeling of extreme fullness but also viral enhancement.

If only my Brooklyn MD had been there to knock some sense into my stupido head about the poppers and needle and deep throating, cause all that would have been odd and worrisome to her. But I'd had plenty of experience with all three, so my warning flags didn't go up, so horny was I to get that dick down my throat.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Sad but true , the encounter that led to my seroconversion was an internet hookup with a sexy impotent horse hung guy equipped with a convenient injectable remedy , which all led to my content feeling of extreme fullness but also viral enhancement.

If only my Brooklyn MD had been there to knock some sense into my stupido head about the poppers and needle and deep throating, cause all that would have been odd and worrisome to her. But I'd had plenty of experience with all three, so my warning flags didn't go up, so horny was I to get that dick down my throat.

Don't feel too bad, as the sayin go's " If you dance to the music, you got to pay to the Piper" most all of us here know how we got infected, and most of us don't, so, I wouldn't beat myself up over it it's just a Virus, so, I think you can move on with your life now..........

« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 03:54:41 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

I much prefer other modes of hooking up other than internet dating sites or chat rooms such as gay.com, etc. Probably because I have such horrible luck. I can say with 99% certainty that I was infected via an AOL hookup with a hot nameless man from Boston staying at the local Hyatt as well as having a difficult time even attempting a hook up with guys due to my inability to handle rejection. However, I do occasionally try it and I am amazed that the local gay.com chat room can be full and there might be 1 or 2 guys that admit to being poz or just leave that info blank. I just have a hard time believing that. It is interesting that this thread and the thread on stigma are getting alot of action at the same time. I wonder if ignorance and stigma aren't related in some way?

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

Hmm, I gotta get me some of that gel, if it'll turn me into a highly sought after, big squirting, home-movie porno star! (Hey, I heard it shrinks balls? True? Well, by any chance it makes dicks bigger? Or does your dick look bigger cause your balls get smaller...)

from jeffLOL , I think the nature of these pick up sites filled with desperate horny guys wanting instant gratification coupled with bio's that read party and play a bigger role in my success than my pics or any gel can take credit for . I like to play the days without the party .

Androgel has brought back my sex drive with a vengeance without any shrinkage .

Sad but true , the encounter that led to my seroconversion was an internet hookup with a sexy impotent horse hung guy equipped with a convenient injectable remedy , which all led to my content feeling of extreme fullness but also viral enhancement.

If only my Brooklyn MD had been there to knock some sense into my stupido head about the poppers and needle and deep throating, cause all that would have been odd and worrisome to her. But I'd had plenty of experience with all three, so my warning flags didn't go up, so horny was I to get that dick down my throat.

Hey mecch..........

You have to get that from a Doctor, and they won't give you any if you don't need it, if your PSA-TEST comes back normal (and you have normal Testosterone levels) you won't get any of the gel or any thing else for that matter that is meant for a replacememt theraphy ONLY, and is not any thing like VIAGRAjust so you understand.............

« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 05:31:56 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Of course, depending on which 'role' one assumes in such an encounter, one could be left with 'an extreme' fullness.

Of course, that's not the sort of fullness or emptiness I'm referring to.

You horn dawg....

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

It is interesting that this thread and the thread on stigma are getting alot of action at the same time. I wonder if ignorance and stigma aren't related in some way?

I was thinking the same thing, and I think there is some relation. I probably wouldn't feel as much stigma if I didn't see so many ignorant, bone-headed personal ads. But how do I change people's perceptions? And should I care to? I have to admit that it does bother me when I hear ignorant comments about people with HIV, such as those seen in personal ads. My intellectual side tells me that this is a reflection of them, not me. However, my emotional side tells me something else -- that I'm somehow a lesser person because I'm HIV+. Intellectually I can say to myself that I can only be put down if I let others put me down. Feeling that and owning that, however, is another matter.

Perhaps I will post this in the other thread.

Regards,

Henry

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Some guy sent me a message on ManHunt the other day. He said he wanted me to breed him. He went on to tell me that he was a bug chaser and that he wanted to share my virus. I told him that I wouldn't share it, but instead I'd give it to him. He'd have to take the entire thing, though; I wouldn't want to keep any of it whatsoever. It would be for him alone. For some reason, he didn't want to chat anymore... and he probably thinks I'm the weirdo!

Did I read this correctly - you have a boyfriend? And you said you are a sex addict was that a joke or serious?

Serious.

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Why don't you move on from your current sexless relationship and find a guy who wants you to fuck him silly all the time?

Well, I love my bf. The relationship is not completely sexless. Once every 2 weeks. Just a tad short of the 1-2x/day I need/want. However sex is not the only thing in a relationship. I would be happy to stay with him and have 1 or more regular fuckbuddies on the side.

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All the rejection you experience on the chats seems like a heavy burden.

Sure is, but it doesn't keep me from trying.

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Of course its your life, I dunno, just seems like if something degenerates into banging one's head against a wall, why bother? Life is too short -- there must be something more fulfilling to do or invest in, something with more returns and rewards?

I do have plenty of other fullfilling activities in my life. I play the piano, harpsichord, I'm into photography, home theater, I go to the gym, I write code for a living, I cook. But I still need the sex.

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or the guys who have boyfriends who supply what they need.

My bf did supply it - we had sex nearly daily, until we both got diagnosed with HIV. My sex drive went down, but recovered, but his never did. I feel quite guilty about it given that I gave him the bug.

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Shouldn't we make a distinction between chats that are mostly about sex pickups, and other sites specifically designed for personal ads by POZ people. Surely there would not be HIV stigma in the latter - though who knows, and of course they would be other kinds of prejudice!

There is always going to be prejudice no matter where. There are some things people tend to be able to get over even if it's not their preference. But on the non-poz sites, HIV+ is rarely on that list.

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If i wanted to cruise chats for hookups again, I hope if I experience any quantity of rejection such as you report, Madbrain, I shift gears and follow my own recommendation for doing something better with my time and talents.

I sure wish I was able to do that, but it is easier said than done. I did see my therapist about it last night. Maybe some of my meds will be changed. After that meeting I went out and scored, with a neg guy. It was the second meeting with him. Maybe he will become a regular fb.

Henry! Quite the thread you have here and I believe it has direct correlations to the stigma surrounding HIV. That said, I just have a few comments of my own to add.

My first comments are directed to Madbrain, as I hope I can help you to see why some of what you say is so damaging to the people who frequent this site. When you make emphatic statements that you cannot substantiate through peer-reviewed studies, you do everyone a disservice, particularly our readers lurking in the shadows. What did you think Dachshund was talking about when he was responding to your posts?

You are saying things that contradict the science based research found on this site. Your personal opinions are fine, as long as you state them as such. However, when you make broad statements, such as getting HIV through oral transmission must be very common; you have crossed the line, because that has almost no basis in fact. The damage occurs because you are sending conflicting messages regarding the official policies of AM.

We stress that oral sex is a theoretical to very low risk activity, not that it never occurs. However, if you read the research and other posts, you will see little support, that after all the hundreds of millions of blowjobs, which occur each year, almost no HIV infections have been documented through oral transmission only. We have a responsibility when we post, not to promote unproven content as anything other than our own. Exactly how do you propose that the average reader is to glean any true prevention knowledge from here, when they read one thing in the lessons and then read posts such as yours, contradicting that very information?

And then you compound the issue by claiming to practice safer sex and then listing enough STDs to infect the Seventh Fleet. Sorry to jump down your throat, but I’ve been living with HIV for 24 years and I know firsthand the damage that can be done, by providing conflicting prevention information.

As to all, the rest about hook up sites and what people say in their ads. I maintain that these sites are just virtual meat markets. To me there appears to be at least two distinct types of gay men that frequent bars and sex sites. Those who are honest in what they want and what they want is a casual hookup, FB or whatever. It is then the responsibility of both parties to properly disclose and negotiate their rules of play. Moreover, you can all stop laughing now, because I am just stating my opinion. (I may be depressed, but I am not stupid).

The second group of gay men is more interested in relationships, of many different flavors and while hooking up is fine; they want something more than just casual sex. I believe the problems arise when people are unable to identify what they really want in life.

I am a perfect example. I thought I wanted casual sex all the time, but after a few years alone, I found it becoming boring and rather empty. As drug use continued to rise, it became more of a chore to find someone whose hardware would work. I was also much more vain back then and so I went after the pretty boys and I landed one and then he turned on me. Long story short, he turned into a drug-addled, sexual deviant who thought getting high and drunk was fun, especially when he could come home and beat on me.

It all ended when he went to jail for trying to kill me and I decided that I was done being the victim. It is amazing how liberating that entire separation was, because it forced me to open my eyes and decide how I wanted to live the rest of my life. Therefore, I made a short list of qualities that were necessary in a man and set about my search. I put up personal ads, went on forums or to support groups and other gay events, to put myself out there, because if the world does not know that you are available, they certainly will not come knocking on your door.

I also changed the way I dated. I no longer looked for sex or love, but rather like. My grandmother used to say that when you choose a mate, choose someone with whom you enjoy talking too, because as you age, talking will soon be all that you have left. I also changed the mechanics of my dates, to make them afternoon meetings, somewhere public like a coffee house. That way, if you do not click, you are not stuck at a dinner or movie with someone who hold little interest for you. This method had its advantage, because if you did click, then you could just segue into dinner or some other activity.

I met my husband Stephen, almost 10 years ago, when I found his profile, online, at a web site that he swears he had never signed up for (queue Twilight Zone music here.) We immediately clicked, because our profiles were eerily similar. We emailed for a week or so and then talked on the phone and soon we were meeting for dinner. At dinner, we bonded because our histories were like mirror images. He had also had an abusive, drug-addled and drunk ex, so what was there not to like?

In addition, our lists of necessary traits in a prospective mate were almost identical, even though we are two very different personalities. We both agree that if you can agree on the rock bottom issues of your relationship, then all the rest is negotiable. The rest, as they say is history, however with Stephen came one of the toughest challenges of my life. Trust me when I say that I grew up in a very unsettling home and I learned early that the only one I could really rely on was Joe. Not my parents, not my family and after I turned poz, not even my friends.

Finally, after about a year into our relationship, I made the leap of faith that would be required to attain the kind of relationship that I ultimately wanted. I dropped my shields, I tore down my walls and I handed my heart to Stephen, with the promise that he would never hurt me. We are entering out 10th year together and I took my man home to Canada, where we wed and we recently relocated to Montreal, where being a gay married couple is perfectly normal. I fell in like, then lust and finally in love with Stephen and that gives me all the fulfillment I need. And sex for us is very precious, not because we are prudes, but simply because we do not need anyone else but each other.

I think it comes down to deciding what you want and then make that happen. If you shop in the meat market, do not be surprised when not everything is as advertised. Learn to grow a thicker skin and try to develop asshole radar to weed out the chaff from the wheat. Many times, finding someone is no harder than you make it out to be.

My first comments are directed to Madbrain, as I hope I can help you to see why some of what you say is so damaging to the people who frequent this site. When you make emphatic statements that you cannot substantiate through peer-reviewed studies, you do everyone a disservice, particularly our readers lurking in the shadows.

What did you think Dachshund was talking about when he was responding to your posts?

You are saying things that contradict the science based research found on this site. Your personal opinions are fine, as long as you state them as such. However, when you make broad statements, such as getting HIV through oral transmission must be very common; you have crossed the line, because that has almost no basis in fact. The damage occurs because you are sending conflicting messages regarding the official policies of AM.

We stress that oral sex is a theoretical to very low risk activity, not that it never occurs. However, if you read the research and other posts, you will see little support, that after all the hundreds of millions of blowjobs, which occur each year, almost no HIV infections have been documented through oral transmission only. We have a responsibility when we post, not to promote unproven content as anything other than our own. Exactly how do you propose that the average reader is to glean any true prevention knowledge from here, when they read one thing in the lessons and then read posts such as yours, contradicting that very information?

And then you compound the issue by claiming to practice safer sex and then listing enough STDs to infect the Seventh Fleet. Sorry to jump down your throat, but I’ve been living with HIV for 24 years and I know firsthand the damage that can be done, by providing conflicting prevention information.

Oral sex transmission of HIV now has its very own thread. This is the "Ignorance in personal ads" thread. I know I made a digression here, and I'm sorry for that, but I thought we had moved on from that topic here.

I don't need to respond to the rest of your post because there are so many things in it that you are attributing to me that I simply did not write and only a few that I did.All I did was relate my personal story as accurately as I could. I don't need a lecture about risks to know and relate what I did. I don't think telling my story violates against AM guidelines. Where I was not sure of something I think I made it clear in my posts.

If you have a problem with something I wrote, then please quote it, especially if you think there is a conflict somewhere in what I wrote. But once again, if it's about oral sex transmission, please do so in the above-mentioned thread.

Madbrain, I stand by what I said and many of your posts, in this very thread, were not a digression, they were a hijack of this thread. Instead of talking about the post topic, you talked about your own infection and sex life, which had little to do with the topic. I am not about to waste my time quoting you and refuting each of your your statements.

However, I will quote Tim Horn on AMs official policy regarding oral HIV transmission:

Of the different sex acts, the one that often causes the greatest amount of confusion in terms of risk – and raises the greatest number of questions – is penile-oral sex. The fact is, most experts agree that fellatio, sometimes referred to as "blow jobs," is not an efficient route of HIV transmission. However, this does not mean that it cannot happen.

Research attempting to evaluate the risk of fellatio has often faced important limitations. For starters, very few people participating in studies only engaged in penile-oral sex. Many people also had unprotected vaginal or anal intercourse, making it very difficult to determine if unprotected fellatio is an "independent factor" associated with HIV transmission. There are also people who test positive for HIV and claim that unprotected fellatio was their only risky behavior. However, it's virtually impossible to know if these people are always reporting their sexual behavior accurately. (Study volunteers often have a difficult time admitting the truth about potentially embarrassing behavior to healthcare professionals conducting scientific studies.)

Because unprotected fellatio can mean that body fluids from one person can (and do) come into contact with the mucosal tissues or open cuts, sores, or breaks in the skin of another person, there is a "theoretical risk" of HIV transmission. "Theoretical risk" means that passing an infection from one person to another is considered possible, even though there haven't been any (or only a few) documented cases. This term can be used to differentiate from documented risks. Having unprotected receptive anal or vaginal intercourse with an HIV-positive partner is a documented risk, as they have been shown in numerous studies to be an independent risk factor for HIV infection. Having unprotected oral sex is a theoretical risk, as it is considered possible, but has never been shown to be an independent risk factor for HIV infection.

Here's a good way to think about theoretical risk: In theory, it is possible that while walking down the street, a meteor will fall on your head and kill you instantly. This is because meteors do occasionally fall to earth. People live their lives above ground, so there is a theoretical risk of being hit be a meteor. In fact, there have been reports of a few people being hit by meteors. But because the risk is so small, given that few meteors fall to earth and the large number of inhabitants of this planet, the risk is purely theoretical. The same principle holds true with oral sex – millions of people all over the world are believed to engage in unprotected oral sex and there have only been a handful of documented cases of HIV transmission. In turn, fellatio, and other types of oral sex (see below), remains a theoretical risk for HIV infection.

There have been a number of studies that have closely followed MSM and heterosexual couples, in which one partner was HIV positive and the other partner was HIV negative. In all of the studies, couples that used condoms consistently and correctly during every experience of vaginal or anal sex – but didn't use condoms during oral sex – did not see HIV spread from the HIV positive partner to the HIV negative partner.

There have been three case reports and a few studies suggesting that some people have been infected with HIV as a result of unprotected oral sex. However, these case reports and studies all involved MSM – men who were the receptive partners (the person doing the "sucking") during unprotected oral sex with another HIV-positive man. There haven't been any case reports or studies documenting HIV infection among female receptive partners during unprotected oral sex. Even more importantly, there hasn't been a single documented case of HIV transmission to an insertive partner (the person being "sucked") during unprotected oral sex, either among MSM or heterosexuals.

Is insertive oral sex a possible route of HIV transmission? Yes. But is it a documented risk? Absolutely not.

Nothing we've written here -- or advocated in these Forums -- contradicts ACOG's recommendation. It is a low-risk activity that all sexually active individuals should consider the grand scheme of things. [/font][/color]Tim Horn

I was hoping you could admit that maybe you could be more careful about how you relate your own story and so I have had my say.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I read the personal ad quoted above as: "I'm HIV- (hence a good witch and a "postivie" representation of the gay community as opposed to those free-loving pozitrons whose across the board disrespect for life keeps my golf and tennis club from accepting me). If you enjoy such pastimes as self-ghettoization, internally couched desires to have mad bareback sex and vanilla cakes with more psychologically disturbing layers than Dante's hell, I'm your man." Although I eschew religion in the talking in tongues sense, I will, however, pray for the author. Ignorance like his is far more dangerous than anything that could come out of my veins or genitals.

Uh has this train been too hijacked, or you think it has some steam in it if we get back on track?

The original quote from some Texas personal ad: "I'M HIV- (( If you are positive I hope you have enough respect for your fellow man to tell him before you go bare backing the entire state! ))"

Its not entirely ignorant, from my perspective and in my experience. Offensive but...

1) With all the gay sero-sorting here in Europe there are a lot of pozzies barebacking each other. Not true in USA, or Texas?? Merits and dangers of which, not to be argued here. Point - if a negative internet cruiser is aware of that and its makes him uneasy, WTF, this comment is understandable if clumsy.

2) Furthermore, it's also a plea for disclosure. Assuming let's say this is a confirmed negative guy, he wants those who KNOW they are poz to disclose. I'm not defending the crass way he puts it. I'm not defending the implication that maybe poz guys are morally currupt and wouldn't disclose and WOULD bareback. Im not saying the advertiser MIGHT be ignorant in WISHING every potential partner online knows his or her status.

We are missing information on what this person wants. To be barebacked by a negative? I guess we can assume this is a negative guy looking to bareback? Numbskull. But that given, his request is "somewhat" self-protective.

Or is there a logic skip in the sentence? Does he want disclosure so he can refuse the poz guy (as WELL as judge the poz guy for potentially being morally currupt).

Let's just say I had an interesting conversation with my specialist MD today who confirmed that my country has been able to track some HIV transmissions to certain poz people who have transmitted multiple times, and over several years (so its not during seroconversion phase, but may be linked to some untreated poz peoples' high viral loads). To clarify, this tracking is possible because the poz peoples' viral genotypes are known and therefore these people know they are positive -- because they would have had to sign the paper letting them be genotyped and tracked. This info had been given to me by a poz AIDS activitist exasperated by the discouraging state of the gay community and the continuing epidemic in the gay community in my country.

So vis-a-vis the epidemiology in my country, and these "typhoid marys" (as some might consider), we can't know what the negotiation between the poz and the negs was in the transmitting acts, and we can't know what acts. But we might assume that there are a few poz guys in my country who are barebacking with disastrous results for neg guys.

Just saying....

Yeah I know -- neg guys gotta protect themselves. As we said - there is missing info to the ad. Maybe it's not even an ad for a "hookup". If he wants a bareback relation, that's human and understandable isn't it? But we all know chats and hookups and sex clubs can dehumanise, desensitize, (and relationships can give false security), and we all know sex itself can lead to iffy decisions.

The more I think about it, the more I realise that I think like this guy who advertised, but I wouldn't express myself his way.

In a better world, all poz people would know they are poz, there would be caution without stigma, all poz people would disclose before sex, all poz people who wanted treatment could get it. Would that change the "epidemic" in the gay community?

Not speaking of this rude guy, but do we ridicule the HIV negative people for their wishful thinking for lower HIV danger? Isn't that the future we all want.

Also, one bad apple does not spoil the whole bushel. Meaning the few poz "Typhoid Marys" (i'm not saying thats what I think) do not spoil the entire community of poz people.

Whew. OK now everybody can say I gave this dumbass and his ad more consideration than he's worth, and I tend to agree.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 07:57:07 PM by mecch »

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

The ignorance referred to here I think is that the poster has more or less assumed that all of us are "typhoid Marys".

I have had some similar exchanges in a local gay forum, and somehow it didn't come as a surprise to me that many gay folks think that the fact that us pozzies dare to even show up in a sauna is being irresponsible and a health threat to the neggies. At the end each of us draws the line where we would not cross on what's considered irresponsible - but what's important is not whether one is infected, but how safe one wants to be. And inevitably most people who think that the responsibility is entirely on us to disclose (and rejected) are usually the people who firmly believe that you can get HIV easily from blowjobs, having small cuts on fingers, etc.

Of course the neggies want NOTHING sexually to do with us pozzies, even my very supportive and liberal friends would have problems getting in bed knowingly with one of us even with full protection. But does it justify the prejudices they put on ads and forums, openly portrait us irresponsible ("barebacking the whole state") .. I think that's the question.

Zounds! My brief comment on the tone of the ad has drawn some, in my opinion, ill interpretation. To me, the ad was some dude blanketly condemning POZ men as people with a nefarious mission to bareback his entire state, and not a way for him to hook up, as it were, with an HIV+ person. If my criticism of this person's tone was too sharp, or if I took a bit too much poetic license with my response, I humbly beg your understanding and forgiveness. I applaud those who wish to safeguard their health. It is their absolute right and prerogative to be informed of the status of potential partners. Likewise I condemn the behavior of those who knowingly infect others. The ad which began this thread remains, in my mind, appalling, filled with spurious notions about HIV+ people and fueled by our communitie's own sense of "us" and "them".My only regret is the fact I may not have elucidated properly my interpretation of the intentions of the ad's poster. Humor is a tool employed by many who, like myself, have seen too much hatred and bigotry thereby choosing to laugh off instances of perceived slights.I do, however, completely understand the previous response wherein the poster thought I believed the guy was looking for a conversion experience.Cheers,Tony