Mr. Colby wrote:If this team wants any shot at competing in the playoffs, it's going to have to shed some of the dead minutes.

27, 48, 10 have to go. 46 maybe too.

I hope you meant 44 instead of 46. Vitale is EXACTLY what we need on our 4th line. Not Adams. And Orpik is absolute garbage as a defenseman now, and I was an Orpik fan. Vokoun is also poop. Instead of paying Johnson ~1 million, we got another Brent Johnson at 2.5 million. Not great.

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Talbot got run out of here, Fedetenko and ZM did. Tanner Glass was a league leader in hits yet looks average on his very best days here. Fact is Michalek was at the very least somewhat responsible in the Philly series. He was on the ice for very goals compared to the other d-men. Im not saying he could change things here, but something aint right.

Talbot played like garbage in his last season here. Fedotenko stinks today and did when we let him go. Are you seriously wanting them back, or blaming their exit on the system?

So we want a guy who could play with a dozen eggs in his pants and not break one as our 5th D man because he blocks shots (sorry, he would break them all when he flopped to the ice)? Lots of Dmen in the league can blocks shots. I would say we could use one, but they should trade for someone with a less passive style than Michalek.

I dont really care if they are back or not. I just find it curious that Talbot played like garbage here but went on to be exactly what he was before, Fedetenko is older but didnt suck the few years after he left - in fact he played a pretty solid depth/pk role for the Rangers the last few years after being a playoff scratch here, Tannger Glass is the exact opposite as he played that role fine and was "what we needed" but pretty much sucks here.

Again I am not a Michalek apologize but 4/6th of our d wouldnt break eggs and a guy like Martin isnt physical at all he is just in better position. Eaton wasnt physical at all, nor was Gonchar. Whether it was Michalek or someone else nobody seems to be able to play here in those roles. I would much rather have him than half our defense right now, at least he was in position could block shots and didnt completely embarrass himself in Philly.

Orpik can break plenty of eggs in his pants, when he is checking you into the boards 30 feet away from the net as the pucks sits inside it.

I'm confused by whether we need a better stay at home defenseman or a shot-blocking, passive $5M 5th Dman? I would like help on D, but we do not miss Michalek.

We need anyone who doesn't run around like a chicken with their head cut off, he was a stay at home shot blocker, while not aggressive or physical his $4 million per year was a bit high but with his PK prowess he was valuable to a point.

And to the other post no he was not the problem vs. Philly. He was on the ice for 6 goals against, by comparison Orpik was on for 14 I think. That's absurd numbers right there. Michalek was only in for 3 power play goals against in a historically bad series.

I don't think we miss him exactly but I think people simultaneously under value him while over valuing what our other guys bring. Would I rather have him blocking shots and always being in position, helping on the PK making $4 million per than what Niskanan, Engellend, Eaton, Orpik or Burtozzo bring? Absolutely.

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Talbot got run out of here, Fedetenko and ZM did. Tanner Glass was a league leader in hits yet looks average on his very best days here. Fact is Michalek was at the very least somewhat responsible in the Philly series. He was on the ice for very goals compared to the other d-men. Im not saying he could change things here, but something aint right.

Talbot played like garbage in his last season here. Fedotenko stinks today and did when we let him go. Are you seriously wanting them back, or blaming their exit on the system?

So we want a guy who could play with a dozen eggs in his pants and not break one as our 5th D man because he blocks shots (sorry, he would break them all when he flopped to the ice)? Lots of Dmen in the league can blocks shots. I would say we could use one, but they should trade for someone with a less passive style than Michalek.

I dont really care if they are back or not. I just find it curious that Talbot played like garbage here but went on to be exactly what he was before, Fedetenko is older but didnt suck the few years after he left - in fact he played a pretty solid depth/pk role for the Rangers the last few years after being a playoff scratch here, Tannger Glass is the exact opposite as he played that role fine and was "what we needed" but pretty much sucks here.

Again I am not a Michalek apologize but 4/6th of our d wouldnt break eggs and a guy like Martin isnt physical at all he is just in better position. Eaton wasnt physical at all, nor was Gonchar. Whether it was Michalek or someone else nobody seems to be able to play here in those roles. I would much rather have him than half our defense right now, at least he was in position could block shots and didnt completely embarrass himself in Philly.

Orpik can break plenty of eggs in his pants, when he is checking you into the boards 30 feet away from the net as the pucks sits inside it.

I'm confused by whether we need a better stay at home defenseman or a shot-blocking, passive $5M 5th Dman? I would like help on D, but we do not miss Michalek.

We need anyone who doesn't run around like a chicken with their head cut off, he was a stay at home shot blocker, while not aggressive or physical his $4 million per year was a bit high but with his PK prowess he was valuable to a point.

And to the other post no he was not the problem vs. Philly. He was on the ice for 6 goals against, by comparison Orpik was on for 14 I think. That's absurd numbers right there. Michalek was only in for 3 power play goals against in a historically bad series.

I don't think we miss him exactly but I think people simultaneously under value him while over valuing what our other guys bring. Would I rather have him blocking shots and always being in position, helping on the PK making $4 million per than what Niskanan, Engellend, Eaton, Orpik or Burtozzo bring? Absolutely.

Glad he's gone. I would rather have anyone you mentioned other than Eaton, who is a piece of tissue paper back there, but whom I presume will not be there when the playoffs begin.

The fact that you put Niskanen's name in there is not helping you seem like an astute judge of talent. One of those guys is a rookie seeing spot duty who happens to have a pretty good upside. The other is an actual 5th or 6th Dman who plays a role. Orpik is a lightning rod for criticism, but I prefer mistakes of commission rather then mistakes of omission - as in Michalek just backs in and lays down.

Here is the difference you seem to be focusing on things you like in a player and Michalek annoys you or his style. Orpik (who has been laughable bad) is a better option because he hits and doesn't lay down? He has been on the ice for an insane amount of goals recently almost not believable. He was on the ice for almost the same amount goals against Montreal that Michalek was for the entire flyers series.

you admit above that he is better than 1/3 of our defense and maybe the rookies too, but he lays down too much so good riddance! Production doesn't count.

I may not be an astute judge of talent, but my reasoning for valuing him over Orpik and Niskanen is the other teams score a lot less when he is on the ice than when they were

Call me crazy I value that over your valuation of Orpik because he "hey teams score all the time against him but he throws hits and doesn't lay down in the ice like that moron who never gets scored against".

Again I'm not a ZM apologist but there are plenty of guys I would take over most of our defense and he is one of them.

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Here is the difference you seem to be focusing on things you like in a player and Michalek annoys you or his style. Orpik (who has been laughable bad) is a better option because he hits and doesn't lay down? He has been on the ice for an insane amount of goals recently almost not believable. He was on the ice for almost the same amount goals against Montreal that Michalek was for the entire flyers series.

you admit above that he is better than 1/3 of our defense and maybe the rookies too, but he lays down too much so good riddance! Production doesn't count.

I may not be an astute judge of talent, but my reasoning for valuing him over Orpik and Niskanen is the other teams score a lot less when he is on the ice than when they were

Call me crazy I value that over your valuation of Orpik because he "hey teams score all the time against him but he throws hits and doesn't lay down in the ice like that moron who never gets scored against".

Again I'm not a ZM apologist but there are plenty of guys I would take over most of our defense and he is one of them.

Orpik won a Cup and played outstanding Hockey in two deep runs. It is logical to think he could do it again. There are 26 games left for Bortuzzo to improve and get more comfortable. Niskanen is just flat out better than Michalek. Despres is already massively better for this team than Michalek. Martin is better for not having him as a partner. These are all pretty obvious to most people. I guess you aren't one of them.

I happen to side with potential and past success over what I know to be a soft player who is perfect for Pheonix and that stole money while he was here. Guess I see things more like the actual GM of our team, who watched him and surely regretted signing him. Thankfully Phoenix wanted him back, but let me ask you - which Franchise would seem to be better at building winning teams?

Tippet plays a defense first style, so Z gets plenty of help in that system and as I explained already, Mike Smith is a good goalie for Z to back in on. That franchise is just happy to win games and hopefully get a playoff gate or two. Michalek can help there, but in the playoffs his pillowy softness is a complete liability.

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Here is the difference you seem to be focusing on things you like in a player and Michalek annoys you or his style. Orpik (who has been laughable bad) is a better option because he hits and doesn't lay down? He has been on the ice for an insane amount of goals recently almost not believable. He was on the ice for almost the same amount goals against Montreal that Michalek was for the entire flyers series.

you admit above that he is better than 1/3 of our defense and maybe the rookies too, but he lays down too much so good riddance! Production doesn't count.

I may not be an astute judge of talent, but my reasoning for valuing him over Orpik and Niskanen is the other teams score a lot less when he is on the ice than when they were

Call me crazy I value that over your valuation of Orpik because he "hey teams score all the time against him but he throws hits and doesn't lay down in the ice like that moron who never gets scored against".

Again I'm not a ZM apologist but there are plenty of guys I would take over most of our defense and he is one of them.

Orpik won a Cup and played outstanding Hockey in two deep runs. It is logical to think he could do it again. There are 26 games left for Bortuzzo to improve and get more comfortable. Niskanen is just flat out better than Michalek. Despres is already massively better for this team than Michalek. Martin is better for not having him as a partner. These are all pretty obvious to most people. I guess you aren't one of them.

I happen to side with potential and past success over what I know to be a soft player who is perfect for Pheonix and that stole money while he was here. Guess I see things more like the actual GM of our team, who watched him and surely regretted signing him. Thankfully Phoenix wanted him back, but let me ask you - which Franchise would seem to be better at building winning teams?

Tippet plays a defense first style, so Z gets plenty of help in that system and as I explained already, Mike Smith is a good goalie for Z to back in on. That franchise is just happy to win games and hopefully get a playoff gate or two. Michalek can help there, but in the playoffs his pillowy softness is a complete liability.

Pillow softness was on the ice for 6 goals against in the playoffs. Tough guy long pedigree GM wanted not stealing money mr more potential to help us win the cup was on the ice for 14 against and has been so bad this year he might as well be shooting pucks into our net.

If Michalek was such the big problem last year why has our defense regressed even further? You point to everyone being better, having potential, this and that, blah blah and all of these examples but ignore the more obvious point - our defense overall is worse without him.

I guess that hidden system in Phoenix is really helping him out since he was such a disaster last playoffs? Definitely have a better shot at the cup with him gone cause of Orpiks pedigree? I mean come on? Bottom line is people dont want to admit things with this team. Again, I am not Michalek apologist at all, but the reasoning and denial regarding our current crop of defensive players is getting to the point its down right laughable. Orpik might as well be shooting pucks into our own net at this point.

Here is proof:

which Franchise would seem to be better at building winning teams?

Seriously? What have the Pens done since 2008-09 to warrant that comment? You are admitting our GM made an awful expensive mistake and in the same breath you ask which one is better at building winning teams. I mean, its not like Phoenix is some slouch with personnel issues. Inf fact in a better situation they might have been able to sign a player or two and take the whole damn thing. They actually got a lot further than us last year if I remember correctly.. I actually think you make my point by asking that question.

Price looked like he was suffering from temporarily blindness all night long and hardly reacts on the GWG goal. The HNIC announcers were all over hime arly about not seeing the puck and floundering, and they were right. Of course, Vokoun several times and the Pens' D at other times made it really close.

Wait no one can say anything about Despres no look pass???? Now that was a thing of beauty. MTL did a great job of covering and taking their man. Their rookie (27 Galchenyuk) totally bit on the no looker and started leaning towards the Despres by that time it was to late. Sutter had the pass and a clear lane to the goal. Sutter made no mistake on that one.

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Again, I am not Michalek apologist at all, but the reasoning and denial regarding our current crop of defensive players is getting to the point its down right laughable. Orpik might as well be shooting pucks into our own net at this point.

Here is proof:

which Franchise would seem to be better at building winning teams?

Seriously? What have the Pens done since 2008-09 to warrant that comment? You are admitting our GM made an awful expensive mistake and in the same breath you ask which one is better at building winning teams. I mean, its not like Phoenix is some slouch with personnel issues. Inf fact in a better situation they might have been able to sign a player or two and take the whole damn thing. They actually got a lot further than us last year if I remember correctly.. I actually think you make my point by asking that question.

Ok, done with this topic. Later all.

You are comparing Phoenix with the Penguins now? Nice grasp at straws and then sign off? You've talked yourself into a corner, so now you're done?

Nobody is denying that the D needs work. It DOES NOT need Michalek and you are nuts for even defending it, or Talbot or Fedotenko. You're point is that only you can see how good terrible players are and that they get run off by someone widely regarded as one of the best GMs in the business.

no name wrote:Wait no one can say anything about Despres no look pass???? Now that was a thing of beauty. MTL did a great job of covering and taking their man. Their rookie (27 Galchenyuk) totally bit on the no looker and started leaning towards the Despres by that time it was to late. Sutter had the pass and a clear lane to the goal. Sutter made no mistake on that one.

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Again, I am not Michalek apologist at all, but the reasoning and denial regarding our current crop of defensive players is getting to the point its down right laughable. Orpik might as well be shooting pucks into our own net at this point.

Here is proof:

which Franchise would seem to be better at building winning teams?

Seriously? What have the Pens done since 2008-09 to warrant that comment? You are admitting our GM made an awful expensive mistake and in the same breath you ask which one is better at building winning teams. I mean, its not like Phoenix is some slouch with personnel issues. Inf fact in a better situation they might have been able to sign a player or two and take the whole damn thing. They actually got a lot further than us last year if I remember correctly.. I actually think you make my point by asking that question.

Ok, done with this topic. Later all.

You are comparing Phoenix with the Penguins now? Nice grasp at straws and then sign off? You've talked yourself into a corner, so now you're done?

Nobody is denying that the D needs work. It DOES NOT need Michalek and you are nuts for even defending it, or Talbot or Fedotenko. You're point is that only you can see how good terrible players are and that they get run off by someone widely regarded as one of the best GMs in the business.

Tell me how good Tangradi was since I am sure I missed that too.

Ummm, is this a joke? You clearly compared them I didn't, I responded to your comparison as if the pens have some superior management to other teams so much that is actually proves YOUR POINT - we are so superior they took Michalek off our hands, point proven? Give me a break. If anything you bringing them up proves they know how to have players that are successful and we screwed up by signing him so the reality is I am not even what point you are trying to make other than pure Pens Goggles Arrogance.

To recap - you brought it up as evidence to your point, not me. And it actually shows the opposite of what you think it proves so I am not even sure what you were getting at.

Next, I never said the penguins needed Michalek. I said they were better defensively with him in the line up then they are now. You use opinion based observations to make your point (he lays down too much, he is soft, he doesnt play the way I like, Orpik is better because he hits).

I am stating facts. When he played for the pens they gave up far less goals when he was on the ice and in the playoffs, which are kind of important in winning a cup, he was so statistically superior to Orpik it's not even in the same reality, its actually almost not believable. And this year Orpik and Letang have been so bad in their own end its actually almost not believable.

To recap:

You: he lays down to much and has eggs in his pants that don't break and Ill deal with Orpiks mistakes, which are far more than his because I like those mistakes better.

Me: Other teams score far less goals when he is on the ice. Orpik was on the ice for 133% more goals than ZM in last years playoffs.

My point about the other players was merely we let go of some assets who are in the mold of things we are missing now, and they ended up horrendous here and turned out to have decent seasons elsewhere. Thats not a stretch, its a fact. And there could actually be a reason for that.

I said I was done because I am tired of arguing facts vs. your opinion. Its lose lose. The facts are not arguable, its not like he was on the ice for one less goal and played harder minutes or we could give any reason to dispute them. The Pens top 4 carried insane minutes in the playoffs, in all situations. He continues to be a decent player and our guys are crapping the bed. But hey he was soff so bye bye. And we are smarter so its clear that you are correct.

no name wrote:Wait no one can say anything about Despres no look pass???? Now that was a thing of beauty. MTL did a great job of covering and taking their man. Their rookie (27 Galchenyuk) totally bit on the no looker and started leaning towards the Despres by that time it was to late. Sutter had the pass and a clear lane to the goal. Sutter made no mistake on that one.

Well... it wasn't really a no look pass. That's what peripheral vision is for. And while I certainly give him credit, that is a play I expect every defensemen or forward to make 4-4.

no name wrote:Wait no one can say anything about Despres no look pass???? Now that was a thing of beauty. MTL did a great job of covering and taking their man. Their rookie (27 Galchenyuk) totally bit on the no looker and started leaning towards the Despres by that time it was to late. Sutter had the pass and a clear lane to the goal. Sutter made no mistake on that one.

Well... it wasn't really a no look pass. That's what peripheral vision is for. And while I certainly give him credit, that is a play I expect every defensemen or forward to make 4-4.

Yet Despres is the only one who continues to regularly make these kinds of passes on defense

no name wrote:Wait no one can say anything about Despres no look pass???? Now that was a thing of beauty. MTL did a great job of covering and taking their man. Their rookie (27 Galchenyuk) totally bit on the no looker and started leaning towards the Despres by that time it was to late. Sutter had the pass and a clear lane to the goal. Sutter made no mistake on that one.

Well... it wasn't really a no look pass. That's what peripheral vision is for. And while I certainly give him credit, that is a play I expect every defensemen or forward to make 4-4.

Sorry but if your expecting Engelland, Eaton, Burtuzzo to make these kind of plays you will be waiting a while. Yeah his peripheral vision allows him to see Sutter, but the fact he doesn't look at him, sells Galchenyuk to skate towards him for just that one second. As soon as he bites he makes a great pass to Sutter for a wide open shot. If Despres makes eye contact with Sutter that pass would of been broken up more than likely.