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Joshua Rosenburg has drawn attention to a recent article by Carl Savich which deals with the antics of a very notorious character (His name is Marko Attila Hoare) and associate of Oliver Kamm of the Times of London, also a close associate of the equally notorious Harry´s Place website. We deal once again with this man going under the very peculiar name, let me repeat it for effect, in case our readers are unfamiliar…Marko Attila Hoare !

This study is all the more important because it deals with aspects of Holocaust Denial.

Did the Bosnian Muslim Army and Government reform or recreate the infamous Nazi SS Division Handzar or not? Based on Martko Attila Hoare’s response to my article, Hoare now concedes that, indeed, there was a formation in the Bosnian Muslim Army termed the “Handzar Division”.

Let me reiterate that. Hoare admitted that the Bosnian Muslim Government did indeed reform the Handzar Nazi SS Division of World War II. When you cut through and deconstruct all the indeologically-driven claptrap, innuendo, ad hominen, personal attacks, this is the conclusion that he reaches.

Hoare is so caught up in his own arrogance and conceit that he does not even notice that he admitted this fact.

The issue or question is and always was: Did the Bosnian Muslim Government have a unit in its ranks known as the Handzar Division? Hoare’s reply is: Yes.

Hoare, nevertheless, convinces himself that he was “vindicated” in denying the existence of the reformed Handzar Division. How does he do this? His rebuttal consists of challenging the strength of the reformed Handzar Division. Now that he admits that it existed, he now challenges the size of the formation. His argument is: The reformed Handzar Division did exist, as you claimed, but it was very small. It was a little bitty Nazi SS Division, not a big bad full-sized Nazi SS Division!

monty_python_hitler_in_england

The Holocaust as joke? Michael Palin as Heimlich Bimmler (Heinrich Himmler) in a 1970 comedy sketch. Isn’t Hoare a Holocaust denier? Fact: Bosnian Muslims, Albanian Muslims, and Croats played a role in the real Holocaust.

But is this a valid argument? Is someone pregnant or not? Can you be pregnant by degree? Is someone dead or not? Can you be only dead to a small degree? Did the Bosnian Muslim Army recreate the Handzar Division or not? This requires a simple yes or no answer. What Hoare initially challenged and questioned was the existence of the division. To be sure, he hedged his bets and cheated by conceding that the division might exist “conceivably” but that its number was small in size.

Hoare hedged his bets this way: “[I]t is conceivable that there really was a handful of Muslim zealots who, during the recent war, fought on the Bosnian side and grandiloquently named themselves the ‘Handžar Division’ after this historic unit.”

Hoare, in essence, denied that the division existed at all. This was the gist of his article. Now he admits and concedes that it, in fact, existed. Now he argues that the unit or formation was a small one. It is hard to pinpoint exactly what he claimed because he constantly changes his arguments and contentions.

Fact versus delusional fantasy? This is a factual image of the real Henrich Himmler (Heimlich Bimmler) with the real Bosnian Muslim Nazi SS Division Hnadzar which Hoare has suppressed and repressed. Delusional fantasy is more reassuring than factual reality.

A fair characterization of his initial argument was that there was no evidence for the reformation of the Handzar Division. The eyewitness account of military analyst and journalist Robert Fox was deemed not credible. Hoare disingenuously hedged his argument by claiming that “conceivably” it could have existed. The way to translate this argument is: No, the Handzar Division was not reformed. But, nevertheless, it is possible it may have been reformed. Of course, this is nonsensical and absurd.

Hoare then concluded: “Monty Python is a much better source for accurate historical information than Neil Clark and his comrades.”

So was the Handzar Division reformed or not? In his rebuttal to my article, Hoare now admits that the Handzar Division was reformed. He again hedges his bets by claiming this time that it was a small unit formed by “zealots”. But, again, the size of the unit or formation was never the question or issue. If there was a small unit or formation in the U.S. Army or British Army termed the “Adolf Hitler Regiment” or “Das Reich Division”, would it be relevant or material that the unit in question was only made up of “a handful” of “zealots”? Now that the existence of the unit is accepted and acknowledged, the issue shifts to the size of the unit, which is unknown.

Hoare concluded: “It would seem that the ‘Handžar Division’, confidently described as numbering ‘about 6,000 troops’ by our friend, does indeed turn out to be a bit smaller when the available evidence is examined closely.”

Hoare here mischaracterized Fox’s original statement by quoting my estimate of the strength of the unit. Fox stated that UN peacekeeping “officers” had told him that the reformed “Handzar Division” was “up to 6,000-strong.” Fox emphazied that the strength of the unit was an approximation or estimate made by UN observers. Fox refers to the formation as a “unit” and as an element of the Bosnian army. Hoare ignores this explicit language and now argues that Fox claimed that the reformed unit consisted of “about 6,000 troops”. But nowhere does Fox state that the unit was made up of 6,000 troops. The phrase “up to 6,000-strong” could encompass any number from one member to 6,000 members. Moreover, Hoare ignored that fact that Fox referred to the formation as a “unit” in his report leaving the actual size open to debate. Fox referred to the members of the unit as “Handzars” and as “[h]ardline elements of the Bosnian army, like Handzar.” Fox wrote that the formation was a “unit” of the Bosnian army similar to other units: “The Handzars are working closely with other units around Fojnica. ” But even at 6,000 men, it would only have ranked as a regiment or brigade, which usually consist of up to 5,000 men, not a division, which is generally accepted as a formation of 10,000 men or more. In short, the focus or emphasis of the Fox report was the existence of the unit, not the size, on which issue Fox only proffered a potential maximum figure that was based on a UN estimate.

Finally, Hoare rejected Fox’s 1993 news report from the London Daily Telegraph out of hand, but this was not done by the Republican Policy Committee of the United States Senate, which cited Fox’s report as credible and accurate. In a January 16, 1997 report, the Committee, chaired at the time by U.S. Senator Larry E. Craig, Republican from Idaho, noted that “there exists another group known as the Handzar (’dagger’ or ’scimitar’) Division” and quoted from Fox’s report. Thus, members of the U.S. Senate, tasked with safeguarding the lives of U.S. troops, found Fox’s report to be factual, credible, and accurate. Only Marko Attila Hoare questioned the veracity and accuracy of the Fox report. Absurdly, the Bosnian Muslim Government or Army never denied the existence of the reformed “Handzar Division”. Only Hoare has done this. At the war crimes trials of Bosnian Muslim military commanders at the ICTY, the existence of the “Handzar Division” as part of the Bosnian Muslim Army is openly acknowledged and detailed.

The translation is: The Bosnian Muslim Government of Alija Izetbegovic reformed the Nazi SS Division Handzar during the 1992-1995 civil war. This is the only logical conclusion when one cuts through all of Hoare’s labels and propagandistic nomenclature.

Hoare uses a bevy of labels to do the thinking for him: “Serb-nationalists” (yes, with a hyphen!), “Milosevic supporters” (at least Hoare gets the correct pronunciation of his name with the correct Serbo-Croat form of his name), “Islamofascist” (no hyphen, a neologism popular after 9-11), “members of a US-based circle of Milosevic supporters and Srebrenica deniers” (an analogy with Holocaust deniers), “Great Serbia” (a propaganda term coined by Austria-Hungary before World War I), “ex-Maoist” (is that a good or a bad thing?), “Milosevic-supporting, Srebrenica-denying website” (hyphenated now, denoting an activity), “all good Chomskyites” (are there such people as “Chomskyites” out there?), “Serb nationalists and their supporters” (no hyphen; do “Serb nationalists” have supporters?), “Serb nationalists and their fellow travellers” (didn’t this term go out with the Joseph McCarthy Communist Witch Hunts during the 1950s Red Scare?), and “the Great Serbia supporters”.

How can one explain this plethora of labels? Why does Hoare use such preposterous and risible labels? We use labels to preclude thought or thinking. Labels are a shortcut to thinking and intellectual debate or discusiion. In fact, labels are meant to preclude or prevent any thought at all. This is why Hoare uses labels. They are mindless and senseless. Why use them then? In essence, Hoare does not want to debate or discuss these issues rationally or logically. He thus engages in the use of labels, what is termed “name calling” in propaganda analysis. In propaganda, we use “pulpit words” or “glittering words” to describe ourselves and our own actions and the opposite words to describe our opponents. In short, Hoare wants to preclude any thought or debate. This is why he resorts to such propagandistic words. There is no thought or thinking going on, no discussion or debate or dialectic. There is only a stream of pre-selected labels or prejudiced or loaded words. It is like when Polonius asked Hamlet what he was reading: “Polonius: What do you read, my lord? Hamlet: Words, words, words.”

The great strength of this study is that it shows that Marko Attila Hoare is responsible for a great revision of history, which is essentially what he does when he makes a joke about an aspect of the Holocaust in the Balkans.

Let us be very clear here. The Handzar division was a Nazi SS Division, and was created out of the forces of Islam in the Balkans.

To deny that is bad, but to deny as Hoare does that that was recreated by Izetbegovic is the most dangerous of all.

Because if you do that then you are saying that the study by Christopher Simpson in “Blowback” and in all the studies of the actions and words of Ahmadinejad in the present are of no relevance.

That another Holocaust is not possible!

That is the great fact that all on this British Imperialist Labourist wing surrounding Kamm, Harry´s Place, the British Media in total except for one noted journalist Eve Ann Prentice, worked might and main to keep hidden during the 90s and indeed since to this very day!

And that is where the Savich claim about Marko Attila Hoare Holocaust Denial is located. They are all guilty of this.

We on 4international have also met Jewish people who did not want to know about this aspect of history, or like Bill Narvey of Israpundit claimed that it had no relevance to today.

We also think that at the centre of all of the Fascist Leftist posturing of today on Israel lies a deep form of Holocaust Denial.

Behind the antics of people like Sinead Cusack now canvassing for her Israel hating son today in Ireland and wider is another form of truth denial, because what is denied is the situation of the Shoah which made it imperative to found Israel.

In fact all attacks that I see being made on Israel today, whether it is in Fatah and Abbas, in Hamas, in Hizbullah, or Iran…all are forms of Holocaust Denial.

There is another distortion which I would like our readers to understand acutely.

It was Leon Trotsky who emerged in the 1930s as the greatest advocate for Jewish nationalism, which he promoted because he had made a deep study of Fascism, and saw the great danger to the Jews from the Nazis.

For some reason the Lefts and “Trotskyists” have also hidden this aspect of history.

And in a strange way these things have come back together again in the grave danger to the Jews of Israel and all the Jews in the Diaspora from a combination of Fascist Islam and Fascist US Foreign policy (of Bush and Obama)

While we on 4international alone continue to fight to defend the Jews of Israel and insist that Israel has no choice but to wage war on the Iranian Nuclear agenda.

We do not wish this. But like Trotsky in the 1930s we are realistic and we try to emulate the realism of Trotsky re 1930s Fascism in the situation of today.

The essence of Hoare, and essentially also of Harry´s Place, Nick Cohen, Maggie O´Kane et al, in the following

The reformed Handzar Division did exist, as you claimed, but it was very small. It was a little bitty Nazi SS Division, not a big bad full-sized Nazi SS Division!

In their analysis of Marko Attila Hoare, in their insisting on his attempts of making a joke out of the Holocaust in the Balkans showing him as a real danger to Jewish people, Joshua and Carl have brought us a great deal further forward.

Israpundit is a very important site for the Jewish people especially now that there has to be organized a great discussion on just how Israel can face up to its enemies.

The news which has emerged from a source within the talks going on between the Israeli ruling class of Livni and Olmert, with the Palestinian Arab fascists presided over by the US Imperialists of Bush, led in the talks by Rice, shows the enormous dangers which Israel and the lives of all Jews are in. This is why we on 4international are very critical of some of the discussions that are taking place there. The most recent issue is over the issue of apostasy and the general position of religion in the Jewish strugggle. Nobody really likes tackling this but it has to be tackled head on if we are to have the discussion necessary for the saving of Israel from its enemies. Continue reading →

Israel is now in the greatest danger that it has ever been in during all of its life. We on 4international have repeatedly emphasised that the way in which Yugoslavia was destroyed (wiped off the map) was through an alliance of American, British and German Imperialism which set up reactionary alliances with Fascist/Nazi entities within Yugoslavia. Those entities were the Fascists around Tudjman in Croatia, the Islamofascists in Bosnia around Izetbegovic, and the Thaci/Haradinaj Fascists and Stalinists of Kosovo. Weak on their own, nevertheless the role of US and NATO/EU Imperialism with all of its power, especially Military power linked to Media power, meant that the Serbs were isolated and defeated. Much of this went on behind the scenes, the public were not aware because the public always underestimates the role of conspiracy and secrecy in how the ruling Capitalist class works.

On 4international we intend to follow this man. His name is Ramush Haradinaj, everybody knows he is a killer and has murdered in cold blood many ordinary Serb peasants and simple country folk, we on 4international have already proved that and have exposed the alliance of the US and EU Imperialists with this killer of Serbs, an alliance which goes to the very tops of the US Elite, to Bush, Lieberman, Cheney, Holbrooke and McCain. Continue reading →

It is completely impossible to silence Trotskyism in this period because – just as in 1933 – only the policies and political programme of Leon Trotsky, the great Russian Revolutionary Socialist leader, could have saved the lives of 6 millions of Jews who were to perish at the hands of the Fascist Nazis. So therefore the recent horrific attack on Leon Trotsky by Sultan Knish just cannot stand. Continue reading →

On November 15, 2007 the results of a very important and comprehensive poll of Israeli Jewish people was taken. The people who carried out this poll were of the highest integrity. The results were interpreted by IMRA. What is happening in the world today is massive lying about reality. We experienced this on the whole issue of Yugoslavia, it is happening in relation to China and Tibet, it is happening in relation to Russia and the encirclement of Russia by Bush’s US Imperialism, and it is happening in all of the lies told against Israel. Continue reading →

Just a few days ago, the imperialist US/NATO owned and controlled ICTY Kangaroo Court in the Hague, Netherlands, released the Islamist Nazi KLA mass murderer, Ramush Haradinaj.

That they would do this was predicted in early 2005, by Gregory Copley, the president of the prestigious and world-renowned International Strategic Studies Association – the parent organization of theDefense & Foreign Affairs group of publications, based in Alexandria, Virginia, in the Washington, D.C. area of the United States. See their reports on ex-Yugoslavia here:

What follows is indisputable proof that the United States government – both Republican and Democrat administrations –planned IN ADVANCE all alongthe early release – or total immunity from prosecution – of virtually every one of the Islamist Nazi terrorist Albanian KLA mass murderers led by Hashim Thaci(e.g. Agim Ceku and Ramush Haradinaj); the Bosnian SDA Islamofascist murderers led by Alija Izetbegovic (e.g. Naser Oric in June 2006); and the Croatian Ustasha Nazi mass murderers led by the late Franjo Tudjman and Stipe Mesic (e.g. Ante Gotovina,Tomislav Mercep, Dobrosav Paraga ).

This repetitive US,NATO/EU intervention on behalf of Islamofascist/Nazi killers of innocent civilians in furtherance of Western geostrategic imperialism (expansion) in the Balkans – with the result being the European expansion of Fascist Islam – has very grave implications not just for the people of Serbia and the rest of Europe, but also grave implications for Israel and the Jewish people.