Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Sat May 16, 2009 3:30 am

Thank you.

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Sat May 16, 2009 7:48 am

I am sure I remember the "stop ringing that bell, man" bit correctly, though. Somewhere before the receiving of the bell. I also remember, thinking about it, that Elvis was at first a bit suspicious (in his hesitant body language) of the guy giving the speech, before shaking his hand, understanding he meant well.

the fact of the matter is, Elvis and his people had been successfully avoiding Curtin since summer of 1976. Curtin had intended, if I remember correctly, to try to give the bell to Elvis during the 1976 Philadelphia show. Curtin lived in the Philly area. Word got to the circle around Elvis, and Elvis wasn't interested in seeing Jim. He (Elvis) would be courteous to Curtin, but didn't like being pestered by him, I gather.

Curtin did on occasion persuade Elvis to see him, though Curtin, as others sometimes do, pretends to be somewhat close to Elvis, he wasn't. Elvis and his people managed to put Jim off until he , quite convincingly interrupted the New Years Eve show. It probably worked to Curtin's advantage as that instance took place in one of the most recognizable concerts done by our man.

This info was related to me back in 1977 from someone in the know, and I believe it to be true.

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Sat May 16, 2009 10:32 pm

Hi,

I Got A Woman / Amen are glued together on RTR ^_^

See You

Vince

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Sun May 17, 2009 1:32 am

To these ears it sounded and still sounds like "stop that bell ringing" but I can see that it also could have been something else.Hard to make out on this vhs tape, though and especially for EU ears. Now let me hear you say: "no, it's obvious that it is...". I know you want to, Rob.

Here's a fresh link to it (should be available shortly after processing):

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Wow awesome pic! Is there a way to get a bigger version? I have never seen it.

DJL

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Thu May 21, 2009 8:08 pm

Hi,

Sorry for the delay, i was on holidays during the last two weeks, and i was unable to work on that project.

Here is the comparison between the two known Pittsburg tapes that were released on three known 2CD pressings. Please note that I’m comparing ONLY the releases, not the raw master tapes. Please also note that I used the original pressings, not downloaded datas or CDRs.Sorry for my average English…

About the pitch/speed of each release : to me the John Herman tape seemed a bit too fast, despite both pressings (official and unofficial) have the same speed. Cjevlis confirmed that the John Herman tape has the right speed.The « unknown taper » tape seemed to be slower, but I may be wrong. If you have any idea about that don’t hesitate to give your opinion ^_^. A lot of fan reactions are captured on the two tapes, some are more obstructive than others, but most are not done on the played songs.

THE RELEASES

Tape ATaper : John HermanUnofficial release :« Auld Lang Syne » 2CD long box digipak (1997, Live Archives)Length : around 87 minutes 35 seconds, originally taped on two T-120 compact cassettes using two decks (the result was a complete master without any cut or tape flip). Speed may be incorrect.CD1/CD2 : cut before « Polk Salad Annie », almost no missing music but the fade out / fade in must be reversed (no identical music on the fade out / fade in parts).Technical infos : lossless, mono. Notas, flaws and edits : that release is taken from the « Rockin' With Elvis New Year's Eve » 2LP set. The mono version is "better" with more headroom than on the other releases. That release is a bit shorter at the end than « Elvis New Year’s Eve », editing the whole Al Dvorin, despite it is partly available on the FTD release (the whole speech was probably taped by John ?). Some vinyl noises can be heard on "Fairytale", at the end of "You Gave Me A Mountain", and on "Reconsider Baby". You can notice a small drop at the end of "Are You Lonesome Tonight ?" and one in "What'D I Say". 5 seconds are edited from "Can't Help Falling In Love". The sound transfer from the 2LP is amazing.

Tape A Taper : John HermanOfficial release :« Elvis New Year’s Eve » 2CD digipak (2003, Follow That Dream)Length : around 86 minutes 25 seconds, originally taped on two T-120 compact cassettes using two decks (the result was a complete master without any cut or tape flip). Speed may be incorrect.CD1/CD2 : cut after « Polk Salad Annie », no missing music (identical music on the fade out / fade in parts).Technical infos : lossless, mono (!).Notas, flaws and edits : the whole recording is ruined by digital errors, due to the remastering process. The original tape was edited to a "dry" mono, probably copying each channel to the other one. Then some frequencies were reduced to avoid the audience reaction and the small « hallow sound » of the venue, resulting in audible pops and crackles. That release is a bit longer at the end than « Auld Lang Syne » as the Al Dvorin speech is included (faded out) at the very end of the closing vamp. A lot of fan reactions are edited through the show (around 90 seconds) with a few Elvis words too (before « Are You Lonesome Tonight ? ». The small problems on « Auld Lang Syne » are not present on that tape (drops, edit, vinyl noises).

Tape BTaper : name not knownUnofficial release :« Rags To Riches » 2CD digipak (2002, Crown)Length : around 88 minutes, 05 seconds, originally taped on a 90 minutes compact cassette tape (not confirmed, tape flip at 44 minutes).Technical infos : lossy, mono (it seemed that the original master is mono)Notas, flaws and edits : the release is mp3 sourced (!), with mini-gaps between all the songs, but this is not due to the writing error of the two discs, as the mini-gaps are not tracked in the same place as the tracks of the Crown set. The speed is different from the Tape A. The whole recording is mastered too loud, resulting in a few digital errors. A lot of CD-R/compression errors are present during the whole concert. More than 30 seconds are missing at the start of « Polk Salad Annie » due to a tape flip, the missing portion (with a different speed !) is taken from « Auld Lang Syne ». A few seconds of dead airs before « Polk Salad Annie » are missing, as a few seconds at the start of the concert.This release is the only one to include the complete Al Dvorin speech at the end.

THE GIG

The running time is taken mainly from « Auld Lang Syne » (« Rags To Riches » for the complete closing vamp).

Best sounding tape :« Auld Lang Syne ».It is a great mono recording, and it has no digital errors. « Elvis New Year’s Eve » would have been a great release is the mono mastering was better (I made some samples with Soundforge and the result was really nice) and if the gig was not edited.Most complete tape :« Auld Lang Syne ». Only a few seconds between the two CDs, during "Can't Help Falling In Love" and during the closing vamp are missing.Best looking release :« Auld Lang Syne ». Beautiful longbox digipak.

THE COMPLETE GIG

If you want to have the more complete version of the Pittsburg gig, you must have… the three pressings. « Auld Lang Syne » will be completed with :- a few seconds between the two discs taken from « Elvis New Year’s Eve » (this is easier than to rework the fade out / fade in on « Auld Lang Syne »)- 1 second taken from « Elvis New Year’s Eve » to patch the small drop on "What'D I Say"- 1 second taken from « Elvis New Year’s Eve » to patch the small drop on "Are You Lonesome Tonight ?"- 5 seconds taken from « Elvis New Year’s Eve » to patch "Can't Help Falling In Love" - a few seconds at the end of the closing vamp taken from « Elvis New Year’s Eve »- around 20 seconds at the end of the closing vamp taken from « Rags To Riches »

See You

Vince

PS : "Auld Lang Syne" IS LP sourced. Amazing transfer for sure ! Courtesy of Doc.PS2 : more infos on the flaws of "Auld Lang Syne".PS3 : more infos about the original Herman recordings ! Courtesy of Greybeard.PS4 : more infos about the speed of the tapes. Courtesy of Cjelvis.

Last edited by Vince on Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:54 am, edited 7 times in total.

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Thu May 21, 2009 9:02 pm

Stunning..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...............

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Thu May 21, 2009 9:32 pm

Greybeard wrote:the fact of the matter is, Elvis and his people had been successfully avoiding Curtin since summer of 1976. Curtin had intended, if I remember correctly, to try to give the bell to Elvis during the 1976 Philadelphia show. Curtin lived in the Philly area. Word got to the circle around Elvis, and Elvis wasn't interested in seeing Jim. He (Elvis) would be courteous to Curtin, but didn't like being pestered by him, I gather.

Curtin did on occasion persuade Elvis to see him, though Curtin, as others sometimes do, pretends to be somewhat close to Elvis, he wasn't. Elvis and his people managed to put Jim off until he , quite convincingly interrupted the New Years Eve show. It probably worked to Curtin's advantage as that instance took place in one of the most recognizable concerts done by our man.

This info was related to me back in 1977 from someone in the know, and I believe it to be true.

Greybeard, as always, your superb input is most appreciated.

Vince wrote:Unofficial release :« Auld Lang Syne » 2CD long box digipak (1997, Live Archives)Length : around 87 minutes 35 seconds, originally taped on Reel-To-Reel (no tape flip ?). Speed may be incorrect.CD1/CD2 : cut before « Polk Salad Annie », almost no missing music but the fade out / fade in must be reversed (no identical music on the fade out / fade in parts).Technical infos : lossless, stereo. Notas, flaws and edits : that set is not LP sourced like « Rockin' With Elvis New Year's Eve ».

Vince --

Beautiful post.

However, my sources indicate -- as I already note -- that Auld Lang Syne is taken from a pristine copy of a 1977 test pressing of Rockin' With Elvis New Year's Eve.

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Thu May 21, 2009 9:53 pm

Great investigation, Vince!! Congratulations!!But what about this new source mentioned in the first post?

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Thu May 21, 2009 10:09 pm

javilu wrote:But what about this new source mentioned in the first post?

See Tape B in Vince's post.

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Thu May 21, 2009 10:22 pm

Hi,

yes Doc, i read that "Auld Lane Syne" was taken from the 2LP but i was unable to find any cuts (side flips) or vinyl pops (even not one). So i was very surprised by the sound quality. If it is taken from the 2LP, this is an excellent job for sure.I will check again tonight the whole "ALS" release.

Do you know which songs were on 4 sides of the 2LP set ?

See You

Vince

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Thu May 21, 2009 10:32 pm

Hi,

Doc you are right (as usual) ! Fairytale has some vinyl noises !

i will try to find the original 2LP and the CD version, at least i will have all the pressings

By any chance, is it known if the 2LP was released in various pressings ? From what i see on the web, the 2LP was probably released to more than 5000 copies (despite many people have sold their copy to buy the CD releases, the set is pretty common), probably even more than 10000 copies...

See You

Vince

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Thu May 21, 2009 11:12 pm

Vince, One flaw in your analysis is the fact that the Herman tape was not, never was, originally recorded on Reel to Reel. John's original master recordings were done on T-120 audio cassettes. I believe he was running two tapes on two machines, with a staggered "flip" point. That way a clean edit with no material loss can be accomplished. The only reel that Herman ever had was a dub from his cassettes. All recordings made from his source, up until FTD had the original, were probably made from a 1st generation dub of the original recordings- edited to seem flawless as far as continuity goes.

These are the true facts on the Herman recording. T-120's were not that commonly used as the tape was very thin and normally didn't hold up well over time. This could possibly explain artifact noise exhibited on the FTD release from John Herman's masters- Ernst had JH's original recordings to work from.

Thre recording is not stereo, but mono taped on a portable cassette player/recorder with the ALC (auto level control) feature shut off. This eliminates any compressed frequency ranges, and gives more headroom- at least as much as the recording unit would allow. Knowing John as I do I would almost bet he used Sony tape recorders current to the era. I could verify that if needed.

My original copy is a 1st generation regular speed dub from both of JH's tapes, my tapes feature none of the noises exhibited in the FTD release, nor any vinyl artifact noise exhibited on any other media using the JH recordings

As for the source on the other, I am not sure, but I would almost bet that no one could easily have gotten a Reel to Reel machine into any late 70's Elvis concert.

The original 2 Lp set was indeed mastered from a Herman tape, or a copy of it.

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Thu May 21, 2009 11:17 pm

Vince wrote:Doc you are right (as usual) ! Fairytale has some vinyl noises !

Trust the doc!

I cannot believe I bought that original 2xLP set over 30 years ago.

Greybeard wrote:Vince, One flaw in your analysis is the fact that the Herman tape was not, never was, originally recorded on Reel to Reel. John's original master recordings were done on T-120 audio cassettes. I believe he was running two tapes on two machines, with a staggered "flip" point. That way a clean edit with no material loss can be accomplished. The only reel that Herman ever had was a dub from his cassettes. All recordings made from his source, up until FTD had the original, were probably made from a 1st generation dub of the original recordings- edited to seem flawless as far as continuity goes.

These are the true facts on the Herman recording. T-120's were not that commonly used as the tape was very thin and normally didn't hold up well over time. This could possibly explain artifact noise exhibited on the FTD release from John Herman's masters- Ernst had JH's original recordings to work from.

Thre recording is not stereo, but mono taped on a portable cassette player/recorder with the ALC (auto level control) feature shut off. This eliminates any compressed frequency ranges, and gives more headroom- at least as much as the recording unit would allow. Knowing John as I do I would almost bet he used Sony tape recorders current to the era. I could verify that if needed.

My original copy is a 1st generation regular speed dub from both of JH's tapes, my tapes feature none of the noises exhibited in the FTD release, nor any vinyl artifact noise exhibited on any other media using the JH recordings

As for the source on the other, I am not sure, but I would almost bet that no one could easily have gotten a Reel to Reel machine into any late 70's Elvis concert.

The original 2 Lp set was indeed mastered from a Herman tape, or a copy of it.

Another stunningly great post. Thank you.

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Thu May 21, 2009 11:26 pm

Hi,

Amazing infos about the Herman recordings ! John was very talented as he used two tapes (only a few tapers in the 70's were doing that this is why i prefered to made a wrong statement and talk of a Reel-To-Reel recorder).

Many thanks for your help, i edited my post.

See You

Vince

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Fri May 22, 2009 1:38 am

Vince wrote:Hi,

Sorry for the delay, i was on holidays during the last two weeks, and i was unable to work on that project.

Here is the comparison between the two known Pittsburg tapes that were released on three known 2CD pressings. Please note that I’m comparing ONLY the releases, not the raw master tapes. Please also note that I used the original pressings, not downloaded datas or CDRs.Sorry for my average English…

About the pitch/speed of each release : to me the John Herman tape seemed a bit too fast, despite both pressings (official and unofficial) have the same speed. The « unknown taper » tape seemed to be slower, but I may be wrong. If you have any idea about that don’t hesitate to give your opinion ^_^. A lot of fan reactions are captured on the two tapes, some are more obstructive than others, but most are not done on the played songs.

THE RELEASES

Tape ATaper : John HermanUnofficial release :« Auld Lang Syne » 2CD long box digipak (1997, Live Archives)Length : around 87 minutes 35 seconds, originally taped on two T-120 compact cassettes using two decks (the result was a complete master without any cut or tape flip). Speed may be incorrect.CD1/CD2 : cut before « Polk Salad Annie », almost no missing music but the fade out / fade in must be reversed (no identical music on the fade out / fade in parts).Technical infos : lossless, mono. Notas, flaws and edits : that release is taken from the « Rockin' With Elvis New Year's Eve » 2LP set. The mono version is "better" with more headroom than on the other releases. That release is a bit shorter at the end than « Elvis New Year’s Eve », editing the whole Al Dvorin, despite it is partly available on the FTD release (the whole speech was probably taped by John ?). Some vinyl noises can be heard on "Fairytale", at the end of "You Gave Me A Mountain", and on "Reconsider Baby". You can notice a small drop at the end of "Are You Lonesome Tonight ?" and one in "What'D I Say". 5 seconds are edited from "Can't Help Falling In Love". The sound transfer from the 2LP is amazing.

Tape A Taper : John HermanOfficial release :« Elvis New Year’s Eve » 2CD digipak (2003, Follow That Dream)Length : around 86 minutes 25 seconds, originally taped on two T-120 compact cassettes using two decks (the result was a complete master without any cut or tape flip). Speed may be incorrect.CD1/CD2 : cut after « Polk Salad Annie », no missing music (identical music on the fade out / fade in parts).Technical infos : lossless, mono (!).Notas, flaws and edits : the whole recording is ruined by digital errors, due to the remastering process. The original tape was edited to a "dry" mono, probably copying each channel to the other one. Then some frequencies were reduced to avoid the audience reaction and the small « hallow sound » of the venue, resulting in audible pops and crackles. That release is a bit longer at the end than « Auld Lang Syne » as the Al Dvorin speech is included (faded out) at the very end of the closing vamp. A lot of fan reactions are edited through the show (around 90 seconds) with a few Elvis words too (before « Are You Lonesome Tonight ? ». The small problems on « Auld Lang Syne » are not present on that tape (drops, edit, vinyl noises).

Tape BTaper : name not knownUnofficial release :« Rags To Riches » 2CD digipak (2002, Crown)Length : around 88 minutes, 05 seconds, originally taped on a 90 minutes compact cassette tape (not confirmed, tape flip at 44 minutes).Technical infos : lossy, mono (it seemed that the original master is mono)Notas, flaws and edits : the release is mp3 sourced (!), with mini-gaps between all the songs, but this is not due to the writing error of the two discs, as the mini-gaps are not tracked in the same place as the tracks of the Crown set. The speed is different from the Tape A. The whole recording is mastered too loud, resulting in a few digital errors. A lot of CD-R/compression errors are present during the whole concert. More than 30 seconds are missing at the start of « Polk Salad Annie » due to a tape flip, the missing portion (with a different speed !) is taken from « Auld Lang Syne ». A few seconds of dead airs before « Polk Salad Annie » are missing, as a few seconds at the start of the concert.This release is the only one to include the complete Al Dvorin speech at the end.

THE GIG

The running time is taken mainly from « Auld Lang Syne » (« Rags To Riches » for the complete closing vamp).

Best sounding tape :« Auld Lang Syne ».It is a great mono recording, and it has no digital errors. « Elvis New Year’s Eve » would have been a great release is the mono mastering was better (I made some samples with Soundforge and the result was really nice) and if the gig was not edited.Most complete tape :« Auld Lang Syne ». Only a few seconds between the two CDs, during "Can't Help Falling In Love" and during the closing vamp are missing.Best looking release :« Auld Lang Syne ». Beautiful longbox digipak.

THE COMPLETE GIG

If you want to have the more complete version of the Pittsburg gig, you must have… the three pressings. « Auld Lang Syne » will be completed with :- a few seconds between the two discs taken from « Elvis New Year’s Eve » (this is easier than to rework the fade out / fade in on « Auld Lang Syne »)- 1 second taken from « Elvis New Year’s Eve » to patch the small drop on "What'D I Say"- 1 second taken from « Elvis New Year’s Eve » to patch the small drop on "Are You Lonesome Tonight ?"- 5 seconds taken from « Elvis New Year’s Eve » to patch "Can't Help Falling In Love" - a few seconds at the end of the closing vamp taken from « Elvis New Year’s Eve »- around 20 seconds at the end of the closing vamp taken from « Rags To Riches »

See You

Vince

PS : "Auld Lang Syne" IS LP sourced. Amazing transfer for sure ! Courtesy of Doc.PS2 : more infos on the flaws of "Auld Lang Syne".PS3 : more infos about the original Herman recordings ! Courtesy of Greybeard.

Impressive posts, Vince and Greybeard !

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Fri May 22, 2009 4:25 pm

What FTD should've done is issue a complete (and great sounding) 12-29-76 Birmingham soundboard and include 5 bonus songs from Pittsburgh 12-31 (Auld Lang Syne, Are You Lonesome Tonight, Reconsider Baby, Little Sister, and the ultra rare "Rags To Riches".) Now that would've been a worthwhile release..that way you get the best of both worlds ..a great sounding (and complete) concert from that time period and the rare live songs from Pittsburgh....instead of cringing through the entire crappy audience recording of the Pittsburgh show.

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Fri May 22, 2009 4:39 pm

Yes that would have been better, I think.

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Fri May 22, 2009 5:20 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:

Greybeard wrote:the fact of the matter is, Elvis and his people had been successfully avoiding Curtin since summer of 1976. Curtin had intended, if I remember correctly, to try to give the bell to Elvis during the 1976 Philadelphia show. Curtin lived in the Philly area. Word got to the circle around Elvis, and Elvis wasn't interested in seeing Jim. He (Elvis) would be courteous to Curtin, but didn't like being pestered by him, I gather.

Curtin did on occasion persuade Elvis to see him, though Curtin, as others sometimes do, pretends to be somewhat close to Elvis, he wasn't. Elvis and his people managed to put Jim off until he , quite convincingly interrupted the New Years Eve show. It probably worked to Curtin's advantage as that instance took place in one of the most recognizable concerts done by our man.

This info was related to me back in 1977 from someone in the know, and I believe it to be true.

Greybeard, as always, your superb input is most appreciated.

Vince wrote:Unofficial release :« Auld Lang Syne » 2CD long box digipak (1997, Live Archives)Length : around 87 minutes 35 seconds, originally taped on Reel-To-Reel (no tape flip ?). Speed may be incorrect.CD1/CD2 : cut before « Polk Salad Annie », almost no missing music but the fade out / fade in must be reversed (no identical music on the fade out / fade in parts).Technical infos : lossless, stereo. Notas, flaws and edits : that set is not LP sourced like « Rockin' With Elvis New Year's Eve ».

Vince --

Beautiful post.

However, my sources indicate -- as I already note -- that Auld Lang Syne is taken from a pristine copy of a 1977 test pressing of Rockin' With Elvis New Year's Eve.

As to the source of Auld Lang Syne, Doc is absolutely correct. Ger and Vic Colanna confrimed this in 2008 posting on this board. We are quite lucky that this test pressing was maintined for nearly 20 years in excellent shape.

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Fri May 22, 2009 10:58 pm

TCB-FAN wrote:....instead of cringing through the entire crappy audience recording of the Pittsburgh show.

You are just about the only person I have ever encountered who calls the 12-31-76 Herman tape "crappy."

It is probably the single best live Presley recording, post-1975. You want to know what it was like to see late period Elvis at his best? Pittsburgh is the one.

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Fri May 22, 2009 11:02 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:

TCB-FAN wrote:....instead of cringing through the entire crappy audience recording of the Pittsburgh show.

You are just about the only person I have ever encountered who calls the 12-31-76 Herman tape "crappy."

It is probably the single best live Presley recording, post-1975. You want to know what it was like to see late period Elvis at his best? Pittsburgh is the one.

Some here have even claimed it is the greatest all-time Elvis concert!

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Fri May 22, 2009 11:42 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:

TCB-FAN wrote:....instead of cringing through the entire crappy audience recording of the Pittsburgh show.

You are just about the only person I have ever encountered who calls the 12-31-76 Herman tape "crappy."

It is probably the single best live Presley recording, post-1975. You want to know what it was like to see late period Elvis at his best? Pittsburgh is the one.

I'm just one person with one opinion....that's all.....I just find it difficult to sit through listening to Elvis's drowned out , barely audible voice in the background while hearing some obnoxious fan clapping and yelling : "Hey Elvis...would you like to hear my cowbell ring again ??? ", or something to that effect.

Last edited by TCB-FAN on Sat May 23, 2009 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: New Pittsburgh Recording???

Fri May 22, 2009 11:45 pm

You must have a different copy of the tape. Elvis is clear as a ... bell on mine.