Woman'sview wrote:
Chivalry was born in Christian Europe. The idea of a noble knight who risk it all to win the fair maiden. He was manly, she was pure and enshrined feminine virtues.
The idea of "gentleman" is a Christian ideal, enshrining a man with a sword and great power but chooses to use his power to protect the weak. "Lady" is another concept of Christian Europe, where a woman was raised to be virtuous holding a high standard, and lived her whole life pure till she was married, and faithful to one man after that.

;p

Movie to watch:

The Arab wrote:
Chivalry was not "born in Christian Europe." Christian Europe was a savage backwater, a war-torn feudal society of inequity, slavery, and subjugation of women as mere chattel for centuries. People lived in filth, squalor, and ignorance in Christian Europe while Muslim and Jewish scientists in the surging Arab Empire applied scientific methods, cured diseases, wrote books and poetry, promoted knowledge and wisdom. Women were literally chattel and bought and sold in Christian Europe. It was only after coming in contact with Arab civilization and the Arab Empire, through trade and contacts and through the Crusades, that the Christian knights encountered a dazzling civilization and culture, where women were respected and honored, Arab poetry exhorting love and beauty of women, the Arab concept called "Furrisiyah" -- "chivalry" is a direct emulation of the Arab Furrisiyah (horsemanship)

The development of the high medieval notion of chivalry is directly related to European contact with the Muslim notion of furusiyya during the crusades. Charles Reginald Haines noted key traits "such as loyalty, courtesy, munificence...are found in eminent degree among the Arabs." Medieval Spain, which he calls the "cradle of chivalry", could bear that pre-modern title, due to the direct impact of Arab civilization in Al-Andalus. "Piety, courtesy, prowess in war, the gift of eloquence, the art of poetry, skill on horseback, dexterity with sword, lance, and bow" was expected of the elite Moorish knight.[3] Richard Francis Burton, attributing the origins of chivalry".

The concept of chivalry existed in different forms in different cultures throughout history, including pre-christian Europe. For example Arthurian tales include a lot of pre-christian Celtic and Pagan elements, such as sacrificing valuables in a lake (or bog) -- Excalibur & the "lady of the lake". In China the concept of chivalrous hero Youxia (knight-errand) was popular from 2200BC and later merged into the modern Wuxia genera. If you're interested, you can read the translated edition of Water Margin (Outlaws of the Marsh).http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... in&x=0&y=0

momopi wrote:
The concept of chivalry existed in different forms in different cultures throughout history, including pre-christian Europe. For example Arthurian tales include a lot of pre-christian Celtic and Pagan elements, such as sacrificing valuables in a lake (or bog) -- Excalibur & the "lady of the lake". In China the concept of chivalrous hero Youxia (knight-errand) was popular from 2200BC and later merged into the modern Wuxia genera. If you're interested, you can read the translated edition of Water Margin (Outlaws of the Marsh).http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... in&x=0&y=0

Methinks there is too much concern for chivalry. Brave knight, we must ask the question why this unseemly fetish for chivalry? What hopest you to find? That thou shall slay many dragons, vanquish the evil witch, scale the castle walls all to win that wench sitting inside? So you may rest your weary head on her bosom (if she lets you) and feel her hair like cornsilk, her ruby red lips and evening breath across your face? Hey man, ain't no woman worth that kind of trouble. Your hormonally addled brain has concocted a fantasy that has no bearing on reality.

No, no, no, best you young man, get on thy horse and mosey on south. Or ride that ship to lands yonder. There ye shall find yerself different maidens of a strange character who need no dragons slain, on whose bosom you can find ample rest, who stew up fiery delicious brews for all to relish. And you can empty the wine bottle and dance the night away around the playa, stories of dragons remembered as silly fairy tales as you enjoy a life of glorious domestic tranquility.

I say men wise up and dump the chivalry thing. It is overdone. Human relations are surprisingly more mundane revolving around eating breakfast together, taking care of the grocery shopping and the house chores, trying to tolerate the inlaws, getting the kiddies to school etc etc. Find yourself your good woman who doesn't need you to have slain a thousand dragons.

Thanks for the thought-provoking answers! I have printed out the article that you mentioned and will read it later.

As a amateur Roman history student, I, as well as a million others, do see the parallels between the collapse of the Roman Empire and the West. I'm an American so I can see the decline first-hand here. Does this "decline" extend to the EU countries? I believe so, but haven't lived there and have to trust other people's observations on this matter until I can go and see for myself.

I DO believe that the media here does censor, control, create our "distorted" views of ourselves and the world at large. To me, honestly, I really don't care WHOM is behind it or WHOM is the mastermind because the important thing, in my mind, is that it's being done. Besides, anyone whom believes, in this "Age of the Internet", information from only one or two sources, is a fool.

The rise of China is apparent to anyone whom is paying attention, BUT what will this "new" China look like? That is the question, I believe. As China becomes more and more vocal and powerful on the world stage, will the decaying western societies try to infect them with our "brand" of freedom? Will China end up as just an Asian USA? I've seen signs, culturally speaking, that this is already happening. Only time will tell IF they can absorb the "good" of the West without being infected by the "Bad."

ijohn wrote:
Methinks there is too much concern for chivalry. Brave knight, we must ask the question why this unseemly fetish for chivalry? What hopest you to find? That thou shall slay many dragons, vanquish the evil witch, scale the castle walls all to win that wench sitting inside? So you may rest your weary head on her bosom (if she lets you) and feel her hair like cornsilk, her ruby red lips and evening breath across your face? Hey man, ain't no woman worth that kind of trouble. Your hormonally addled brain has concocted a fantasy that has no bearing on reality.

That is an Eurocentric view. A youxia archetype does not slay dragons -- dragons are good luck and symbols of auspicious power. A Chinese poverb reads "hoping one's son will become a dragon". Youxia do not serve lords or jump through hoops and bend over backwards to get laid. A youxia lives by the chivalrous ideals of righteousness, honor, repayment of other's kindness, vengeance against your enemies, filial piety to your parents, and loyalty to your shifu, as he wanders the roads and waterways like a cloud.

momopi wrote:
That is an Eurocentric view. A youxia archetype does not slay dragons -- dragons are good luck and symbols of auspicious power. A Chinese poverb reads "hoping one's son will become a dragon". Youxia do not serve lords or jump through hoops and bend over backwards to get laid. A youxia lives by the chivalrous ideals of righteousness, honor, repayment of other's kindness, vengeance against your enemies, filial piety to your parents, and loyalty to your shifu, as he wanders the roads and waterways like a cloud.

Indeed. And these different interpretations of chivalry can have interesting consequences. The western male tends to have various aspects of his personality carefully sculpted and polished and on show. Take a look at the profiles on display on dating websites. Everyone is preening themselves - hey I am the knight you want! Look at me. Everyone has a million hobbies, loves travelling here and there, loves the good movie, being outdoors etc etc etc.

In the east men are not required to slay dragons in this way. So they do not go about carefully honing their edges. They men then seem softer, more rounded, less sharp edged. They may still have their hobbies and preferences but do not pump them out to such an extent. If people get together with others, the activity is often secondary, the getting together is primary. In the west often the activity is the primary concern. The people in your group are secondary. They are there to facilitate the activity, and everyone will express fake pleasantaries for each other, share lots of shallow observations and easy laughs but once the activity is gone the engagement is forgotten.

Sometimes asians in the west overly glamorized by every aspect of western culture bemoan this - why can't we be knights slaying dragons too. It sounds so sexy and hip. But is this where you want to end up, constantly updating your profile on your dating website, looking at the latest round of matches, occasionally poking the girl who has has been active on the website for years on end and has already screened away thousands of matches. Like these dimwits here. Be glad you are *not* a part of this culture.

But let not anyone labor under the illusion that there are no dragons at all to be slayed in the far east. As anyone who would have attempted to date a chinese girl would know is that you come under inspection right away - how much money do you have? What kind of house do you have? etc etc. Only when you have passed this and various other inspections will the gates of the pearly kingdom be opened for you.

Last edited by ijohn on January 21st, 2011, 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

As a amateur Roman history student, I, as well as a million others, do see the parallels between the collapse of the Roman Empire and the West. I'm an American so I can see the decline first-hand here.

You don't say.. Found this:

Must watch! Still waiting for someone to debunk this. one hour long. (this is dvd 1 of 3)

Last edited by odbo on December 10th, 2011, 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

All of these people involved have yielded near incalculable negative damages on the masses and it is for this reason they are to be paid mind to and as well made note of the common denominator they share so we can thus be more aware, to be on the lookout for the signals, to stop, clean up and further prevent these messes.

Investigate for yourselves who where the strong pushers of feminism and a common denominator they share. As well as the very large number in the "mental help" arena re-shaping people's minds - for the negative ultimately.
While we're at it, as this is also a forum regarding meeting women and the issues that have been; note the common denominator of known ones in the PUA industry: David DeAngelo (real name Eben Pagan of NY), Neil Strauss (NY), Ross Jeffries. Again, common denominator there. Do the research.

Investigate who controls over 80% of Hollywood and almost all media for that matter (to also include the adult industry), and the huge amount of destructive elements pushed and a common denominator they too also share. The list is disproportionately huge. Sumner Redstone (real name Sumner Murray Rothstein), Al Eisner, etc etc etc.

Investigate who really are the pushers of wars in the middle east and the several benefits they gain. Destruction against one of their long standing enemies (Christians being the other), gaining of further territory, money profits and the like. Look into the common denominator of key figures in the United States senate and the like. Check where their allegiance truly lies. Certainly not to the U.S. Recent Chief of Staff (key position 2nd to president), dual-cit. Rahm Emmanuel. The other, behind HS/TSA an awful attack on freedoms, Michael Chertoff. Axelrod. The list truly goes on and on. Kissinger back in the day. So many.
Look who started the non-federal reserve, and the heads, the current one Benjamin Shalom Bernanke, the previous one Greenspan. Goldman-Sachs, Blankfein. Soros (born to Tividar and Erzebat Schwartz in Hungary).
They too also all share a common denominator.

The clues are all over the place these days. There really is a common denominator of the people that make up these near unfathomable attacks on the masses. On a scale truly methodically demonic.
Why are so many people continuing to not specifically point to these very specific individuals and making note of the common denominator they share for they do very well share a common denominator? Oh yes, I recall, need to be PC, too afraid to speak. Or otherwise, just truly lost and blind. The calculated attack has been extremely effective in causing people to be blind robots.

Certainly, like in any case, it's not all of one group, but, a vast majority of the grand scale criminal acts being perpetrated are indeed committed by people of a specific common denominator. It would help greatly if people were more specific in where they are placing their efforts in order to help stop this gigantic mess.

Certainly the average folk are to blame as well, but how much can you really blame them? Initially it was their kind, open hearts that allowed others to come along. Others that from get go had demonic agendas, plotting from the very first day, mass destruction.
How can you really expect average folk to take on such an attack, a mass attack like from all the resources the evil realm has in its bags.

What do we do now? The building is destroyed beyond repair. Tear it down, build anew. Most importantly, gather as much information as possible, study, study, study and learn from the history this time. Learn from the mistakes. Make sure not to repeat them with the new building.

Outstanding BBC documentary (14 parts on Youtube.) Wonder why they don't make anything similar in the U.S. ? Oh yes .... Zionist controlled media. The whole country is indoctrinated and lied to from birth.

I have already destroyed the argument of Christian Islamophobes and the pedophile argument. I know my stuff. They don't.

The Arab, what about this documentary about Islam by the History Channel? It is supposed to be more objective as it was produced by non-Muslims.

History of Islam, Part 1 of 10:

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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World

Jews flourished under Muslim rule in Spain and sided with the Muslims during that Crusade. Also, Christians were free to practice and, in fact, begged mercy for their conquered sovereign which was not given.

Unfortunately, such tolerance is no longer common in the Muslim world. The penalty for conversion away from Islam is commonly death, and both Christian and Jews practice at their own peril. There are no churches in Saudi A. and most of the middle east. Iraq's Christian population has now mostly fled, and is headed for extinction. Islam in the Philippines and other areas where they are a minority tends to be tolerant- what choice do they have? In areas that are in fact ruled under Islam, in most cases if you are not Muslim, your life will really suck, or your life is in grave danger.
Exceptions do not disprove the pattern. This is not my armchair theory- it is what I see first hand being in those places.

I have a degree in Russian, and 15 years work as a translator/consultant. I can tell you directly that my self confidence and performance in an American venue (any, not just the dating meat market) is diametrically opposed to the performance and activities dealing with Russian, Ukrainian, or even Croatian women.

In America, because of my height (5-6), my age(42), my robust build (245 - thick like brick) I dont get any garner for even an introduction. I get shut down at hello. It is so pathetic that I dont even going out to clubs or meat grinders any more. I dont even bother approaching the american woman because they are so f'n judgemental.

Get to a local Russian Holiday bizaar (Seattle has a sizable Russian Community) and the women are out going, approachable, happy to talk to you - with out motives, without prejudice, without judgement, just for the sake of having an interesting conversation. And knowing the language, I will usually speak to them in Russian. Instant bond, very gratious and always friendly. Ask them if they are dating, and they will tell you, ask them if they would like to go out, and they will say YES, or if you are not their type; they will introduce you to their friend with a glowing reference. This NEVER happens in American culture. They genuinely want to spend the time to know you, not your stats, not your money, not your house. I had one girl (she is 5-9; and in heels easily over 6ft) come up to me in the last holiday event and ask why I did not come over to her table ! I said honestly because you are so tall, that I didnt think I could be your type.... she looked at me and said ' That is horseshit, your height has nothing to do with the size of love in your heart' Girl is 17 my junior, amazing conversation, a great two weeks, she is back in Ukraine (she was an exchange student) I am headed her direction as quickly as possible.

5opuc wrote:I have a degree in Russian, and 15 years work as a translator/consultant. I can tell you directly that my self confidence and performance in an American venue (any, not just the dating meat market) is diametrically opposed to the performance and activities dealing with Russian, Ukrainian, or even Croatian women.

In America, because of my height (5-6), my age(42), my robust build (245 - thick like brick) I dont get any garner for even an introduction. I get shut down at hello. It is so pathetic that I dont even going out to clubs or meat grinders any more. I dont even bother approaching the american woman because they are so f'n judgemental.

Get to a local Russian Holiday bizaar (Seattle has a sizable Russian Community) and the women are out going, approachable, happy to talk to you - with out motives, without prejudice, without judgement, just for the sake of having an interesting conversation. And knowing the language, I will usually speak to them in Russian. Instant bond, very gratious and always friendly. Ask them if they are dating, and they will tell you, ask them if they would like to go out, and they will say YES, or if you are not their type; they will introduce you to their friend with a glowing reference. This NEVER happens in American culture. They genuinely want to spend the time to know you, not your stats, not your money, not your house. I had one girl (she is 5-9; and in heels easily over 6ft) come up to me in the last holiday event and ask why I did not come over to her table ! I said honestly because you are so tall, that I didnt think I could be your type.... she looked at me and said ' That is horseshit, your height has nothing to do with the size of love in your heart' Girl is 17 my junior, amazing conversation, a great two weeks, she is back in Ukraine (she was an exchange student) I am headed her direction as quickly as possible.

Hey 5opuc, are you going to move to Russia or eastern Europe someday? It's good to hear that you had great success with Russian women, it gives a lot of men here in America hope for a better social life.

"When I think about the idea of getting involved with an American woman, I don't know if I should laugh .............. or vomit!"

"Trying to meet women in America is like trying to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphics."

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World