This is definitely a "hope for the best" kind of season, maybe the kind of season where everything breaks perfectly and the team wins 85-89 games and/or contends for a WC spot for a while, but that seems like a longshot. If this team finishes with 80-84 wins, and the Harveys and the Wheelers make progress in the minors, and Alderson continues to fortify the farm, then this year will have been a success.

And hopefully David Wright has a truly good bounceback year, and not one twisted into a "good" year via sabermetric voodoo. The walls coming in is the best move made by the Mets in the offseason to date.

0

THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan![Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime? - Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

I did my own projections a month or so ago and came up with about 74 wins:

The x's are holes on the roster right now, which have no values and thus are considering replacement level. Obviously I tried to be conservative on some of these projections too.

But 74-ish wins appears to be a good marker considering RLYW ran some early simulations using Marcel and CAIRO (2 projection systems) a few weeks ago and they both came up with 75 wins. But in any case, everybody knows this is another rebuilding year. What's most important is going to be the development of the young players on the roster and the continued improvement and development of the farm.

Some thoughts on some players...

I think Niese will take a big step forward this year. His ERA last season was a big time mirage given his strikeout, walk, and groundball rates. He's not going to be an ace but he's also not going to be the back-end starter his ERA painted him out to be last season.

Ruben Tejada is not Jose Reyes but he has the chance to be an average regular. He won't steal many bags or hit more than a couple homeruns but he does one thing pretty well, and that's get on base. This may seem a little shocking, but of shortstops with at least 300 PA last season, Tejada's .360 OBP was 4th best behind just Reyes, Troy Tulowitzki, and Yunel Escobar.

Duda should hit. He was one of the better hitting rookies in baseball last season and he has a nice, balanced offensive skillset. It's not crazy to believe he may turn out a better hitter than Ike, but it's still a little early to say that just yet. However, he's also large and slow, and his defense and baserunning will be negatively affected by that. His overall skillset reminds me a lot of Jason Kubel.

Murphy's defensive abilities at second base is anyone's guess right now but he was great with the bat last season. His bat will probably regress some, but if he can be not-awful defensively, he should be fine.

Andres Torres doesn't have much of a future with this team, and I'm not sure how much he'll hit, but he's one of the best defensive centerfielders in baseball, which should be fun to watch. Kirk Nieuwenhuis is a near-Major League ready outfielder who could wind up displacing him (or Bay) at some point this summer.

Ike appears to be healthy, which is great to hear. This may sound nutty now, but if he and Duda are similar hitters next season, I'd be very open to shopping Ike next winter. Duda (who will almost certainly need to be moved out of RF) may not be the defender Ike is at 1B, but if he can hit similarly while Ike brings back a nice prospect package in return, the trade-off could be well worth it.

I'm sure a lot will be made of David Wright and a possible trade, but don't expect anything to go down this summer. If he's dealt, he can void his 2013 club option, which basically makes him a rental player for whoever acquires him prior to the deadline. To add, the acquiring team would not be able to recoup compensation draft picks when Wright walked after the season due to a new rule under the new CBA. Those two factors likely equate to a diminished return for the Mets in a deal, unless he hit likes crazy a la Carlos Beltran last season (not likely). The best time to trade him will be next winter.

There isn't much else to comment on; Thole has been about a league average hitter so far, which works at catcher, but he needs to show better defensive chops for me to be convinced he's starting catcher material. Bay is bleh - he looks like a platoon player at this point and I doubt the walls moving in will help him; the sooner his contract expires, the better. The bench won't be that good but the bullpen has the potential to be pretty decent, though know that relievers are a volatile bunch.

Anyway, I'm excited for spring to start. I realize this team isn't likely going to contend next season (though I will warn, never say never*), but between the young players on the roster and the developing farm, it's not all hopeless, trust me. Plus, at least for me, baseball is my favorite sport; no matter how great or horrible my team may be projected to be, the baseball season is always something I really look forward to.

*:

There are scenarios where a team is so far away from contending that the value of a marginal win is quite small (the 2012 Astros are in such a situation, for instance), but ~75 win teams are not in that position. While wins 85 to 92 have the largest impact on on a potential playoff berth, there’s still quite a bit of value in improving a roster that is only a few players away from being a .500 club.

The reality of a 162 game season is that every year, one or two teams are the benefactors of significant good fortune, and they destroy their pre-season estimate by 15+ wins. Whether it’s a bunch of guys having career years at the same time, the entire pitching staff staying healthy, winning a bunch of one-run games due to timely hitting or pitching, or just a group of young kids making a larger than expected impact on the big league team, the surprising upstart is an annual tradition at this point. Last year, the Diamondbacks improved by 29 games and won their division going away, despite generally being considered an also-ran before the season started. In 2010, the Reds won their division after finishing in the bottom 10 in the league in winning percentage the year before, and the Padres went from one of the worst teams in baseball to missing out on a playoff spot on the final day of the season. The Rockies went from 74 to 92 wins in in 2009. The 2008 Rays won 31 more games than the season prior and ended up in the World Series. Both the Cubs and Diamondbacks went worst-to-first in 2007. In 1990, the Twins won 74 games and finished dead last in a seven team division, but in 1991, they won the World Series – and that was back when only two teams made the playoffs each year.

The current reality is that a 75 win team is a few good breaks away from playing meaningful baseball in September, and even if it doesn’t result in a playoff spot, that kind of unexpected contention can have a significant positive effect on a franchise.

Sounds pretty fair nmig. We'll all go in hoping for better, hoping for surprises, but 75 wins or so really has to be considered a par performance for this group. At least we don't have to listen to Omar's endless "if" scenarios anymore...he'd have us trying to believe that this is somehow a bona-fide wild-card contender, built on the "ifs" he was so fond of.

If Santana pitches anywhere near his prime form, who knows...maybe someone offers something for him and the Mets can get out from at least part of the money owed on that deal.

0

THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan![Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime? - Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

It's not going to make them play any better, nor will it make them play any worse. I know Wright didn't like them, but it was just a cheesy effort to get them motivated or something. It receives a lot of attention because it's early spring and nobody has anything to write about (besides players reporting In The Best Shapes of Their Lives, because we can't have enough of those!).

The Mets' 1st spring game is next Monday at 6pm vs the Nats and it will be on SNY. For those who want to check out Matt Harvey for the first time, I'd tune it. He'll probably only throw an inning or 2 (at three-quarters effort), but hey, it's at least something. Also, Gee is scheduled to start that game, and he's rocking an amazingly-awful goatee. That alone is worth seeing.

Edited by nmigliore, 29 February 2012 - 09:00 PM.

0

LETS GO METSLETS GO DEVILS

"Take all that clubhouse [expletive] and all that, throw it out the window. Every writer in the country has been writing about that [expletive] for years. Chemistry don't mean [expletive]."

PORT ST. LUCIE, Fla. -- The Mets' Spring Training camp has been open -- officially -- for a week. And thus far, Ike Davis has "done everything I'm supposed to do."

Whether that statement will be applicable each day come April is an unknown that makes his manager and Davis himself squirm. Davis is not the picture of health. He has, in fact, contracted Valley or Desert Fever, a malady that can interfere with a season and even end a career.

...

Davis, reluctant to speak publicly about the illness, did so Saturday. "I have to keep my immune system strong," he said. "No one has told me for sure what it is, and I haven't asked. But they're pretty positive it is [Valley Fever]. I'm trying to be positive about it. I'll just be careful the way they tell me to be careful."

...

Davis, who turns 25 in three weeks, believed he had no such problem when he returned from New York. The club characterized what had been detected as an infection in the lung. It said no antibiotic treatment was necessary. At the time, Davis already was quite aware of former Diamondbacks player Conor Jackson, who missed most of his 2009 season because of Valley Fever.

And Collins had witnessed the debilitating of Joe Vavra, now the Twins' batting coach, when he and Vavra were with the Dodgers. Collins noted that, in Vavra's case, one of the symptoms that developed was a hole in the lung. Vavra's playing career never resumed.

With Duda being a logical replacement for Ike if he needs DL time, this could boost Kirk Nieuwenhuis' chances of making the Opening Day roster. I don't want to jump too far ahead of everything, but if Ike were to open the season on the DL, they'd be better off sliding Murphy over to 1B (with Turner at 2B) with Kirk in AAA instead. Wait a few weeks, then promote Kirk and stick him in RF, Duda to 1B, and Murphy back to 2B. The idea behind delaying Kirk's debut is to have him hit free agency in 2019 instead of 2018.

Of course, all that other stuff is pretty minor relative to the main story. I really hope Ike is alright.

Edited by nmigliore, 03 March 2012 - 07:16 PM.

0

LETS GO METSLETS GO DEVILS

"Take all that clubhouse [expletive] and all that, throw it out the window. Every writer in the country has been writing about that [expletive] for years. Chemistry don't mean [expletive]."

When will this organization stop being cursed? Goddamn it never fvcking ends...

0

THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan![Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime? - Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

Not everything has gone against the Wilpons in these proceedings, but the momentum has definitively been against them. People think Vanderbeek is in deep water, imagine if Picard gets the $303M award. How could it not hurt Mets operations?

Not to mention the fact they owe millions to numerous entities as it is. Plus they haven't exactly found many takers for the non controlling $20 million shares of the team since all but one of the ones that have been 'sold' went to SNY or members of the Wilpon and Katz families lol.

0

"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns

The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

Not everything has gone against the Wilpons in these proceedings, but the momentum has definitively been against them. People think Vanderbeek is in deep water, imagine if Picard gets the $303M award. How could it not hurt Mets operations?

We all know that the Wilpons are incompetent clowns who are oblivious to the fact they are not good for the Mets nor baseball. But I think they only way they disappear is if fate forces their hands. I don't they'll ever sell the team willingly. Just hope that Alderson can build a team without the Wilpons getting in his way...we've seen good GMs build winners that don't necessarily cost zillions of dollars. As Mets fans that's all we have...because let's face it, their days as a big-market team (in terms of buying top players) are gone. Now the Mets have to build the way the Oaklands and the Minnesotas do.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 05 March 2012 - 12:36 PM.

0

THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan![Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime? - Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

...because let's face it, their days as a big-market team (in terms of buying top players) are gone. Now the Mets have to build the way the Oaklands and the Minnesotas do.

You're definitely being extreme here. You seriously think the Mets will never sustain a legitimate, $100M+ payroll again? That's crazy talk. This isn't Pittsburgh. This isn't Florida where nobody cares about baseball. This isn't Kansas City. This is New York, the biggest baseball market in the world.

Something's gotta give with the Wilpon situation at some point; either they recover or are forced out. New ownership would be preferable and probably expedite the process of bringing the payroll back up to respectable standards. Also, Oakland is routinely in the bottom-tier of payrolls; there's no way the Mets would stoop that far, even with the Wilpons' current mess.

The good news in the meantime is that the current front office is one I greatly trust while operating under a tight budget.

Edited by nmigliore, 05 March 2012 - 02:23 PM.

0

LETS GO METSLETS GO DEVILS

"Take all that clubhouse [expletive] and all that, throw it out the window. Every writer in the country has been writing about that [expletive] for years. Chemistry don't mean [expletive]."

You're definitely being extreme here. You seriously think the Mets will never sustain a legitimate, $100M+ payroll again? That's crazy talk. This isn't Pittsburgh. This isn't Florida where nobody cares about baseball. This isn't Kansas City. This is New York, the biggest baseball market in the world.

Something's gotta give with the Wilpon situation at some point; either they recover or are forced out. New ownership would be preferable and probably expedite the process of bringing the payroll back up to respectable standards. Also, Oakland is routinely in the bottom-tier of payrolls; there's no way the Mets would stoop that far, even with the Wilpons' current mess.

The good news in the meantime is that the current front office is one I greatly trust while operating under a tight budget.

No, I wouldn't say never, though I can see how what I wrote could be interpreted that way. I meant for at least the forseeable future...I'm thinking 5-10 year range if the Wilpons still own the team...sadly we probably won't know just how bad their situation is for quite a while yet...if they're gone, then who knows? Obviously it depends on how deep the new owner's pockets are, and how much he wants to sink into the on-field product.

Also, clearly even with the Wilpons around, the team should be at least middle-market in terms of where their payroll falls...they're not going to be be top-5 anytime soon...but that approach wasn't doing much for them anyway. I think Alderson is clearly the right guy for this franchise at this time.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 05 March 2012 - 04:06 PM.

0

THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan![Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime? - Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

No, I wouldn't say never, though I can see how what I wrote could be interpreted that way. I meant for at least the forseeable future...I'm thinking 5-10 year range if the Wilpons still own the team...sadly we probably won't know just how bad their situation is for quite a while yet...if they're gone, then who knows? Obviously it depends on how deep the new owner's pockets are, and how much he wants to sink into the on-field product.

Understood, sorry for the misinterpretation. I agree though; the "in-between" time of the fallout (like now) could be disappointing, payroll-wise, unless Selig steps in. If they ever gave up full control of the team (by choice or by force), I'm sure a lot of people would line up for it though; a baseball team in New York is too salivating.

Edited by nmigliore, 05 March 2012 - 04:15 PM.

0

LETS GO METSLETS GO DEVILS

"Take all that clubhouse [expletive] and all that, throw it out the window. Every writer in the country has been writing about that [expletive] for years. Chemistry don't mean [expletive]."

Understood, sorry for the misinterpretation. I agree though; the "in-between" time of the fallout (like now) could be disappointing, payroll-wise, unless Selig steps in. If they ever gave up full control of the team (by choice or by force), I'm sure a lot of people would line up for it though; a baseball team in New York is too salivating.

The funny thing is, I don't see the reduction in the payroll as being a bad thing, as long as Sandy is given the time and enough resources to build a farm that can churn out solid to upper-echelon-type ballplayers at a reasonable rate. I don't think the Mets have to spend with the top payroll teams to succeed. And the sad thing is I think, deep down, the Wilpons do care about the team and do mean well, but they never seem to know how to go about their business the right way, ever. Everything they touch has a way of turning to sh!t, and it seems like they harder they try NOT to be like that, the worse they get.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 05 March 2012 - 05:11 PM.

0

THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan![Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime? - Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

Yeah it seems to go in cycles with the Wilpons. We were pretty small-market for a while in the mid 90's too and that didn't work until they finally jumped in both feet with the Piazzas, Venturas, etc.

Almost forgot, I did have plans to go out tonight but since they got canceled might as well watch the first ST game lol.

I know I told this story before, but in '98, the Mets were 22-22 (or something like that) and had no juice (especially offensively), despite good pitching (Al Leiter and Rick Reed had gotten off to terrific starts...the staff ERA was around 3.00 or so at that point in the season). Mike Piazza had been just traded to Florida from the Dodgers and was still clearly on the block, and was even more clearly what the blah Mets needed at the time. The Mets had just lost a lifeless afternoon game against the Reds on a cold spring day, and it was estimated that about 5000 fans (tops) had shown up. Fans started calling into Mike Francesca, complaining about how dull the Mets were, and how there was a player available in Piazza who was tailor-made for New York who could definitely give the Mets some life...Francesca then stated that he felt the Wilpons had not been doing right by their fans, and had then-GM Steve Phillips come onto the show. Though GMs clearly have to be careful with what they say in regards to other teams' players, Phillips basically made it seem like the Mets would not have much interest in Piazza, and that he didn't want to cough up too many "chips" (Phillips used this word over and over again) for just one player. I was listening to the show that day and I remember thinking "Holy sh!t Steve, are you fvcking kidding me with this bullsh!t?!"

Francesca then shredded Phillips and the Wilpons, and fans calling in followed suit, calling the Wilpons cheap, clueless, indifferent to their fans...you name it. Fatso then had Fred Wilpon come on the show, and he then questioned (in a roundabout way) Wilpon about Phillips basically saying the Mets wouldn't go after a guy like Piazza, and that Wilpon hadn't been fair to his fanbase. Wilpon replied by saying, as much as he could, that of course the Mets would add a guy like Piazza if he was available. Supposedly not long after that interview, an irate Wilpon called Phillips and more or less told him "I don't care what you have to do or your precious 'chips', get this guy and get him NOW"

Anyway, that move supposedly ushered in two simultaneous eras: the Wilpons spending money again, and the Wilpons listening to the radio to gauge fan interest, feedback, and reactions.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 06 March 2012 - 09:43 AM.

0

THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan![Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime? - Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!