Bailey is about the only sure thing on Defense right now. Smoot is moreson inconsistent than Bailey. Safeties are unproven. The line is in shambles and thats a compliment. And our LB's are overpaid too. Arrington may have Bailey beat on the consistency scale but he too misses easy tackeles, and sacks.

If we get rid of Bailey we better get something good, we better get a HELL OF A LINE, and atleast a medicore CB to replace him. Cus CB I feel is one of the hardest positions to find decency at.

Hear, hear! That's why I certainly wouldn't go up any further on Champ's deal--and as I've said before, if this contract to Champ is gonna make us unable to re-sign LaVar, then I would happily let Champ go and wish him the best of luck.

I have to think a lot of this is posturing. If Champ stays quiet and unnoticed, he's likely to get less than if he complains that he's being slighted. I wouldn't be surprised if his agent has put him up to this at some point. The thought is its hard to take either side's statements seriously when in the middle of a negotiation - these are made to sway public opinion, not to state fact.

I notice that not a lot of people throw at Champ. He didn't get sent to the pro-bowl due to his charming personality and he is still young and probably still getting better. I thought the skins price was fair, but what do I know...

Also, he did lots better on the autograph signing near the end of the second week and third week. He was signing at least 3 or 4 times when I went. Still, he is nothing compared to Smoot, Ramsey, Watson, Cartwright and others who were continually there. He was certainly there as much as say Lavar.

newshog wrote:if this contract to Champ is gonna make us unable to re-sign LaVar, then I would happily let Champ go and wish him the best of luck.

A hella loud 'AMEN' to that. Lavar is a Redskins Redskin with the heart of a champion, IMO.

So many good points in this thread, good job with the supporting details Boss.

I guess the general consensus of the board is that Champ is a whiner and his attitude has worsened approaching the new contract. At first I liked what I was hearing from the few quotes he has had about staying in DC and being patient with the contract but now I think I was probably mislead.

For this Redskins fan (and I realize this is the NFL of the past) loyalty to this team and the willingness to take a slightly lesser contract to 'fight for old DC' will mean a lot more to the franchise and fans (ie D Green) then this crybaby crap.

I believe Champ is the best cover corner in the league, I'd say top 3 overall corner in the league. I believe he is worth the original contract offer and I agree that we tag his if he doesn't take it.

Boss is right that he got burned more than I would have liked last year. He will not excel at anything other than defense on a consistent basis.

At the end of the day it also bothers me that he is not really a leader of the defense. He is asking for big time leadership money IMO. I see that in Lavar and think this whiner bit has gone a little too far.

I loved the point about leadership too... I know, I know... not everyone can be a leader, but man... he could lead a little. I didn't see him helping other CB's at all at camp, mind you it was my first camp and I only stayed a week, so I shouldn't speak in such generalizations.

However, it was that same week at camp that led me to the conclusion that Lavar was very much a leader of this defense... very much a leader of this team in fact. Does that mean he wouldn't bolt for somewhere else if the money was right? Hell, no. They all would. It's all about the benjamins.

But the ones that take the time to appease us by making us think that they want to stay are much more palatable.

Well sit back, and throw your heels up. It doesn't look like Champ and his agent are going to be leaping at the existing offer. If it's not counteroffered and accepted in the next 48 hours... I think we're in for a long ride.

skinsfanno9 wrote:I have to think a lot of this is posturing. If Champ stays quiet and unnoticed, he's likely to get less than if he complains that he's being slighted. I wouldn't be surprised if his agent has put him up to this at some point. The thought is its hard to take either side's statements seriously when in the middle of a negotiation - these are made to sway public opinion, not to state fact.

I notice that not a lot of people throw at Champ. He didn't get sent to the pro-bowl due to his charming personality and he is still young and probably still getting better. I thought the skins price was fair, but what do I know...

Also, he did lots better on the autograph signing near the end of the second week and third week. He was signing at least 3 or 4 times when I went. Still, he is nothing compared to Smoot, Ramsey, Watson, Cartwright and others who were continually there. He was certainly there as much as say Lavar.

Finally, Good objective, and realistic points. I was getting a little concerned there for a minute.

I thought everyone was going to start comparing their salary's to that, of a professional athletes.

OR, Start a:
"Cut Champ, he has a poisonous attitude campaign" Unless he makes every single play(even in pre-season), and, sign any and every autograph,... after every practice, and game; when, where and how anyone wants it.

Not that those aren't good points(leaving room for the backtrack ), because they are, really.

Cut Champ, he has a poisonous attitude campaign" Unless he makes every single play(even in pre-season), and, sign any and every autograph

You're over generalizing for the sake of your point... that's fine... but not factual.

People addressed his new whiney attitude... which exists, without a doubt. Have you seen an interview with him yet this season? Nothing but bickering EVERY time I've seen him. There's posturing and then there's just downright acting spoiled. Let's not lose sight of an important fact here... HE IS UNDER CONTRACT ALREADY. Whining the year before your contract is up is belly aching.... 'I'm worth more than that' blah blah blah... it was enough when you signed the contract wasn't it? It's not like he's a FA in limbo... he's under contract to play this year.

As for making every single play... I think all anyone said was that he got burned lots last year... which he did. I don't think anyone questions his abilities here. Just that some of us think that as Redskin fans we spend so much time saying Champ's the best for the sake of being bragadocious and in reality, 'the best' don't have seasons like Champ had last year.

As for the autograph thing... i'm not an autograph hound, so I couldn't care less. HOWEVER, there are lots of lesser knowns out there spending time with the kids. Kids that come from far and near to see players like Champ. I think it's a shame to see them walk away heart broken day after day because their favorite player Champ keeps running past them without even thinking about stopping. It's not about the autographs... it's about appreciating the fans.

Patrick Ramsey put in the equivalent of two full days of practice extra with the time he spent with the crowd signing autographs and taking pictures at camp.

While I don't expect everyone to love the limelight and bask in the glory... I do think if you want to get paid like the best (his words not mine), then there is some onus on you to give back to the fans that pay that exhorbitant salary.

If you don't recall Champ being burned, look back to the last two losses to the Cowboys. Quincy Carter burned him as he stopped on the sideline looking lost. Rocket Ismail took it all the way in for the score. Last year on Thanksgiving, Chad Hutchison burned him with Joey Galloway to put the game out of reach. This is the worst offense in the league burning the "best corner" in the league. Quincy and Chad?!? He has to play better against spares like these!! If not, put the tag on him, and let someone else worry about it.

My personal opinion about someone's attitudes, which reflect on the entire team (a la the 2000 season and all of their bad attitudes) are accurate.

If a person says they are the best in the league, expects to be paid like the best, and feels uppity enough to act so unseemly, they should make a tackle on a 200 pound HB that runs into their arms.

I didn't say cut Champ, I said if he gets worse about this contract, lets tag him, and allow teams to send us their two first rounders if they want him.

Do I expect a human to make a mistake? Yes, but if Champ wants, on average, 7 million dollars a year, I think he could do something about improving his skills and stats.

Just a few further questions - Who had the most ints on the team last year? Who did in the NFL? Answer - not Champ. Not by far. Sorry - not the best at this time. Get paid in the top 5, which I think if he quits sulking and pouting he can play like, but not the #1 DB in the country.

Rich in Roanoke

Last edited by skinsfaninroanoke on Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rich in Roanoke
_______________________________________
Let others hail the rising sun:
I bow to that whose course is run

I am new to NFL football (and football in general) and I started following it 'cause I'm a Gatorskin and basically a fan of Spurrier. (He 'introduced' me to the game.) Anyway here's my two cents about the situation with Champ Bailey.

I agree, from what I saw last season, that Champ wasn't the best CB in the league, much less one of the best defensive players in NFL. Heck, he wasn't even the best defensive player in the team, one of the best but not the best. If you've to look for the best defensive player in the team, I'd go with Lavar but lets not open another debate there.

So what is all this ruckus about? Champ's argument seems to be entirely based on his 3 Pro Bowls and his best (I'd say near-best) performance in the team (which has genuinely been one of the top defenses). Even great players blow assignments and miss. They're after all human. But what I'm worried about is that Champ has not performed at the highest level of his abilities. When I say this I believe he has the ability to become the best CB in the league and one of the best defensive players in the league and so the whole argument is relative. I wonder if he has been nursing this grudge for a long time. He has talked too much about not letting this affect his performance and this makes me wonder how much damage was done in the past seasons because of this.

How much of this publicity is posturing? Did you notice that while Champ blows hot and cold (more like whine and whine), his agent is so silent and appears fussy about the whole thing? I wonder if it is all orchestrated. I don't know much about cap issues and learnt a lot from these posts but what really surprises me is how much of dirty linen of negotiations is being washed in the public, particularly the article in Times (http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20030820-113904-6152r.htm). Is Champ trying to conduct his negotiations in public or is it merely the craze of football in DC? I don't think it is the latter, though, I wonder what would be the fate of Ramsey's contract if negotiations are conducted so much in public?

Personally, I think it is very dangerous for a team to recognize an "elite" player among the team. It can never do any good. But even if they were to recognize an "elite" player in the team, I think setting the level of standard at the performance-level of Champ Bailey is totally ridiculous. He is neither the best player nor is he the absolute fan favorite (of course we like him but you know what I mean). He has to give a lot more for the team and for the fans even if he gets paid so much.

If the "autograph hounds" are any indication, Champ is easily in the top two. Only Lavar commands more of a following.

I think virtually every corner gets burned. Again, Champ did not get into the pro-bowl on good looks and personality, but from his playing. Teams that play in zone defenses get more INTs. Champ doesn't get the ball thrown his way very often so he is not getting lots of interceptions.

Does this mean its a good idea for him to whine at every opportunity? No, nor does it mean he should be paid as if he's Ray Lewis. But again, he is pretty darn valuable and is worth being paid as if he is among the elite corners. Hopefully we have the money to do this. If not, oh well, we will suffer some.

I would keep him. Give him a good contract but not that big. He should his old Champ Bailey skills against the Ravens. I hope he keeps this up. I want to see consistant, solid, and impressive performance. I like Champ but I hope he doesn't cut off negotiations. I also hope LaVar doesn't have problems when we negotiate with him. He will probably ask for a huge contract (bigger than Champ's). I get nervous about those sort of things.