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I just started lessons with a new piano teacher, and she corrects my hand position every time I touch the piano. I'm grateful for the correction, but it seems excessive to be corrected constantly throughout the entire lesson. The changes are usually relatively minuscule. She wants my technique to be like a concert pianist's (I'm in grade 6, out of 8 grades = intermediate). The most I played was one bar from a piece I'm learning.

Since you just started and you're already at an intermediate level, I would say no, this is not excessive. There are possibly some bad habits you have in your playing from prior to taking lessons with her that need to be corrected in order for you to advance without injury. She has your best interests at heart. The best way to get her to stop is to correct yourself whenever you play until it becomes a habit. The sooner you do as she says, the sooner you can move onto other aspects of playing. However, technique is always at the heart of things (technique before art), so you will probably be addressing technique in particular passages of music each time you learn a new piece. Then once you "get it" for that passage, then you work on making it music.

For example, let's say you are learning a Chopin Nocturne, and you encounter one of his infamous fiorituras (this is where you have a series of 8th notes connected together with the intention of all of them being played within one beat, all over a steady LH pattern that doesn't seem to match the RH at all). Since that may be one of the harder measures of the piece, of course time would be focused on technique with the goal of being able to do so without pain or fatigue. It makes sense that you would be working on how to play and practice this passage, even if your general technique has been corrected, simply because you've never encountered something like this before.

You mention the most you've done it one bar of music. Do be sure that you apply what she teaches you in the lesson to the rest of the music when you practice. I'm sure time constraints make it impossible to address each and every measure. So do that work on your own.

You should be thankful that your new teacher is focusing on your weakness! Most transfer students come with a bunch of technical issues. My most recent transfer student came with excellent hand shape, but her fingering is crazy...she does 1-2-3-4-5-5-5-5 on her scale passages, and never learned the proper fingering for chromatic scales. And don't get me started on her completely WRONG pedaling technique.

Constant, vigilant attention is the only way to build a habit. Once better habits are established, your teacher will move on to other things.

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

I do not think it is too much. However in my opinion, playing only one bar for the whole lesson will be too overdo. (Do I understand you correctly on this part?)I had transfer student with sloppy technique too. I have to constantly correct their hand position, but I still allowed them to finish their pieces (they are lower level than you).

Sounds like you have an issue with hand position that really needs the correction. Best way to get past this is to work on doing it the teachers way. I wish I had a teacher years ago that had corrected this problem for me, because now I have issues with finger joint pain that I believe are attributed to many years of playing with poor technique.

_________________________
Retired Army reserve Bandsman who now plays for the Joy of Music!!

This is some of what she's been teaching me (she sent me an email after my lesson):

Quote:

For a little while, please keep turning the hand upside down to feel the natural hand shape and the 'bridge', which is like a fulcrum (like mid-point of a see-saw) when hand is turned right side up, and the little bone swings from this fulcrum.

Scales - just do one octave pausing on each finger, and check the fulcrum/bridge/finger curve and if the finger is playing closer to the nail, so less surface area than how you have been playing on the 'flatter' part of the fingers.

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

With this technique stuff, you're ultimately not trying to externally copy how it should look (although how you look is a good indicator of where you're at). You're trying to build an awareness of the internal physical/intellectual/emotional sense of how it feels to play with good technique (or not).

Think of it like Yoga. You're not trying to copy how the instructor looks, you're using their demonstrations to act as a spring board to come to an awareness of what it feels like to move properly for you.

The external look your teacher is describing is right on the money, and it's the RESULT of an internal awareness.

Just to offer somewhat of a contrarian viewpoint here: I feel teachers must also assess the intellectual and emotional readiness of the student to focus on just one problem to the exclusion of all others. I have a student, a rather wonderful student at this point, who came to me two years ago with MAJOR, MAJOR problems. One of them was real problems with hand positions, similar to the OPs. It became quite obvious within minutes that he was neither intellectually nor emotionally ready for intense, specific work, so my game plan changed to one of "nudging" him closer and closer to what is necessary, while allowing the reward of working on more repertoire. Had I taken the OPs teacher's approach, I would have lost him at the end of the trial lesson period. This way, he's still improving, but really thrilled with his music.

Peoples egos can be bruised, even with the best of intentions, but it sounds to me like the OP's teacher has done the correct thing, and in fact, the email reminder is a great idea. It will be interesting to learn how future lessons unfold.

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

If you were going to teach someone how to build a brick wall, you'd spend an hour getting the first brick right and then let them finish it.

You probably wouldn't spend 2 minutes doing a mediocre job on the first brick and then repeat that 30 times.

Your teacher isn't teaching you the piece, he's teaching you how to practice. It's your job to figure out how to apply that attitude, knowledge and skill to the next 100 measures.

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

As for practice/practise one should look up the definition in a dictionary and understand that it means repetition after repetition and each repetition should be accurate and , hopefully, an improvement with continued application. There is a distinct difference between practice and playing. Exercises are just that--tools to improve playing. Hanon is only one of those tools.

The analogy might be more that playing scales is like laying the first course properly. All bricks must be equally spaced, eg the pulse of the scale, and of even height, eg the intensity of each note in the scale.

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

The analogy might be more that playing scales is like laying the first course properly. All bricks must be equally spaced, eg the pulse of the scale, and of even height, eg the intensity of each note in the scale.

You can't build the wall for the student. You have to show them how to build it themselves.

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

There was nothing puzzling about the analogy. A particular actn or thing that you learn to do. You apply it to the first note. Then you apply it to the next note. Then you apply it to the third note, then the fourth and fifth. You stop before you lose concentration. But before being able to do any of that in practising, you first have to know how to do it. If it takes half an hour of lesson time, then it takes half an hour. I assume that this is set up in lesson, to be applied in practising afterward. It is easier to remember how to do one thing, and then work on it, than to try to remember a number of things.

There was nothing puzzling about the analogy. A particular actn or thing that you learn to do. You apply it to the first note. Then you apply it to the next note. Then you apply it to the third note, then the fourth and fifth. You stop before you lose concentration.

If you don't know how to build a brick wall, or more to the point if you have never taught someone how, then there is nothing puzzling about the analogy.

If you know how to build a brick wall, and if you know how to teach someone how to build a brick wall, then the analogy with building a brick wall leads to the conclusion that spending an hour on hand position is a waste of time.

A brick wall is not built, one brick well done, then the next, then the next.

[/quote]It became quite obvious within minutes that he was neither intellectually nor emotionally ready for intense, specific work[quote]

Agree with John. Most of my students are not ready for intense correction. Making a lesson fun for my younger student while correcting their technical mistakes is my main goals now. Not the other way around.

You have a good teacher, and I think you are able to manage the heavy instruction from your teacher, that is a good fit!

I have not built brick walls, but a higher level in my instrumen of instruction I had that kind of lesson which I could apply in my practising. It is highly effective. It is because of experience, not inexperience, that it makes sense to me.

You can't build the wall for the student. You have to show them how to build it themselves.

Yeh, but wander off after the first brick?

We always wander off. We see students once, maybe twice a week. Most of the work is done without us, so it's important we set them on the right path.

Next week, we can check the plum line.

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

Back to brick walls. The OP is at the intermediate level and will have been playing for a number of years. Supposing that you know the keyboard, notes, key signatures, and you've playing scales for years (to keep it to scales). But the way you shape and use your hands is wrong and hampers you, or you never learned to listen to youself in order to get control of the notes. It is not enough to be able to hear in your mind what you want to produce - you can be prevented physically from producing it through these things. Ideally a student would not come into such a position! There may be a particular "simple" motion that you are doing in a clumsy way, or something you never listened for. A teacher may spend half an hour on that one thing until you are able to do it. To undo a habit and replace with a new habit that you have never experienced is tricky business.

What happens next is that you go home, and you play that scale that you have played for years, but you put that new thing into every single note. It is one thing that you have worked on, which you then try to apply everywhere. If you start getting this, then your playing will no longer be hampered the same way. However, a student cannot even start until they know what to do. It is not that easy to pick up a new physical action and it can indeed take half an hour or more. The focus is no longer on the piece, but the action (or whatever) that you will be putting into the piece(s). It is not about the brick, but how to place a brick.

As John wrote, this is tedious for a student so some teachers sneak the corrections in more gradually. I have been in that position and it is not fun. It is even less fun to be perpetually clumsy because something is missing or wrong. If you have better technique, things are no longer a struggle. But as a student you don't know what that feels like until you get there. Provided that you have a good teacher as a guide it is worth it if you can push through.

If you were going to teach someone how to build a brick wall, you'd spend an hour getting the first brick right and then let them finish it.

You probably wouldn't spend 2 minutes doing a mediocre job on the first brick and then repeat that 30 times.

Your teacher isn't teaching you the piece, he's teaching you how to practice. It's your job to figure out how to apply that attitude, knowledge and skill to the next 100 measures.

Well, I have to say, this analogy and people's reactions (ahem, unusual interpretations and confusions) to it inspired the latest post on my blog. (Kreisler, hope you don't mind, I took your analogy and ran with it - I'll pay royalties, I promise!)

Although I don't take any offense at the "unusual interpretations and confusions" thing, I just wanted to remark that your article is ... like ... well ... how can I say it ... you know ... kinda ... sorta ... ahem ... well, let me just blurt it out ...

Dan, as a student there are particular reasons why the "one brick" idea appealed to me, due to certain experiences. I thought however that a previous entry in your blog captures it, at least for me. There is the "one beat too early" along with a video. I assume that the student could then go home and practice using what you had managed to capture together. That to me is the "learning how to lay a brick, and applying it to all bricks". My interest as a student is what we do 6/7 of the week, i.e. practising.

Update: Every lesson is still really focused on technique... A month has passed now, so is that still normal? I don't understand how my technique can be so bad... Also, often the intructions/rationale behind the corrections aren't given in a clear way. I' m the highest level student she has, maybe she's not used to teaching intermediate level. I'm beginning to dread lessons, whereas before I always enjoyed them. I don't know if I'm being too negative though.

Update: Every lesson is still really focused on technique... A month has passed now, so is that still normal? I don't understand how my technique can be so bad... Also, often the intructions/rationale behind the corrections aren't given in a clear way.

It's normal.

_________________________ Currently working on Comping and Improvisation

I switched to a good piano instructor at Grade 7. It took me months to change through intense correction because I accumulated the wrong habits for more than 7 years. Plus my ears were not developed enough to pick up the difference.

_________________________ Currently working on Comping and Improvisation

^ Thanks... How long should I expect all the focus on technique to go on for? A few more months?

Until it is fixed. How long is that? That is like asking "How long is a piece of string?" Each one is different.

Here is another analogy...(yikes!)

Lets say you are an auto mechanic, and work for a dealer who takes in trade a beautiful late model car that has a few minor things wrong, and one major thing. Lets say the major thing is that the transmission slips badly.

Your job is to get the car completely fixed up for resale.

You are going to spend much more time on the transmission than on the other small repairs.

However, to the untrained eye, a person walking by might say, "Gee, that car looks nice, paint is nice, the interior is nice, why are they still working on it?"

I'm perfectly willing to adapt my technique, it just seems a bit excessive to constantly focus on it in an unclear way.

My question would be "why is it unclear".You say you are the highest level student your teacher has... I would like to think that if she is trying to help you with something she feels is fundamental to your progress that wouldn't matter - she's taking you back to basics.

If she can't explain clearly THAT'S a problem indeed!I think you need to speak with her and get clarification. From what the others have said, (bricks and all ) it seems to me that she is probably providing you with very useful corrections - you would be happier if you usnderstood better what you are aiming for and why. That isn't unreasonable.Children (up to a point) will do things simply because you ask or tell them too. Adults want the whys and wherefores.

I suggest making time during your next lesson to talk about this. Be sure to say that you are willing - but you feel your aren't getting the point and ask for help in understanding what is being asked of you.Good luck

_________________________ ABF Recitals 18-44Another thing you learn along the way is that the music will still be there when you are ready for it. There's no reason to rush. JimF

There comes a point when you realize the student is not going to get it (because they don't have the right attitude at home) and you give up.

So it's jaw-droppingly rude response without provocation time is it? Well, if that's the case, perhaps it's time for someone to suggest that such giving up generally occurs when it finally becomes clear that the student just doesn't have the god-given talent to progress via hopeless instruction?

Please ignore that stunningly idiotic and disrespectful response. I'd express your concerns to your teacher. Ask if it's possible to strike a balance between the tehnical work and other things.

I'll echo what another moderator said in another forum. There are a lot of people on these forums. Not everyone is going to agree, many won't even like each other. That's fine. We can disagree as long as we don't resort to meanness and name calling.

Please disregard the tone of the above post. The author won't be around for a couple of weeks.

You say you are the highest level student your teacher has... I would like to think that if she is trying to help you with something she feels is fundamental to your progress that wouldn't matter - she's taking you back to basics.

Thanks, the reason I mentioned being the highest level student is that I'd have felt more confident if she had higher level students and probably wouldn't have asked here. The only reason I asked here is because I have no frame of reference. In the lessons she sometimes says 'I didn't learn this until I was 18 [and a con student]' or 'some concert pianists don't do this, but they should', so I was confused about whether the corrections were necessary or a bit ambitious, since I'm only in grade 6. Anyway, I know now that it's normal, thanks everyone for the advice.

Just to offer somewhat of a contrarian viewpoint here: I feel teachers must also assess the intellectual and emotional readiness of the student to focus on just one problem to the exclusion of all others. I have a student, a rather wonderful student at this point, who came to me two years ago with MAJOR, MAJOR problems. One of them was real problems with hand positions, similar to the OPs. It became quite obvious within minutes that he was neither intellectually nor emotionally ready for intense, specific work, so my game plan changed to one of "nudging" him closer and closer to what is necessary, while allowing the reward of working on more repertoire. Had I taken the OPs teacher's approach, I would have lost him at the end of the trial lesson period.

I'm in complete agreement. So much of teaching is being in tune all of the students needs.

My highest-level student is also my student with the worst technique. The reason for this is because she came from somewhere else and has learned some really bad habits. It takes longer to break a habit that has had years to concrete itself and then reteach and concrete the new, correct habit than it takes to teach it correctly in the first place. I've had her for a year and still won't let her do her exam that she wanted to do within six months because she's still not ready. She still has problems with her left hand that I have spent many entire lessons correcting. It's better - much better, in fact, but the root of the problem is still there. I'm so concerned that she's going to injure herself that I've been encouraging her to seek complementary help through Alexander Technique or other options. But that's by the by...

So my point is that it doesn't matter if you're her highest-level student. It's quite likely that you aren't the most advanced. The grade you're at is only an indicator of what grade you're doing right now, not how well you play. I think that your teacher has high standards, wants you to meet them, sees your potential and is continually trying to support you in order to reach those standards, which is excellent pedagogy.

_________________________
Amos

Facilitator of learningLover of pianos and singingWannabe singer/songwriter

This is a problem college profs face all the time. So many turn up with bad habits which will take years to eradicate - do you go back to basics? Take away their competency? With only three years to get them through, they don't, they can't.