remind hasty ambush that this Nation is still a Democracy, although a fading one, and that the Separation of Church and State can never be infringed. at least without a Revolution. those Church folks think they are going to turn this Nation into another Theocratic sh*thole like they have in the middle east, they have another Think coming....

HotWingAgenda:Kahabut: HotWingAgenda: vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.

They'd have to be mentally defective to agree with that blind assertion. You think any sane judge would say that corporations have the same right to privacy or right to bear arms that people have? That would undermine the entire SEC, and give public corporations a justification to build their own private armies.

It would be almost like the burbclave world of Snow Crash

On second thought, fark yeah, let's get this party started.

You haven't been paying attention.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_military_company

Turns out I was wronger than you thought. Those jackasses specifically gave corporations free rein to field their own armies, not even for security contracting to the government.

Writing for the majority Chief Justice Roberts opined, "If the first amendment applies to Corporations, surely the second amendment also applies. Since Corporations have no history of abusing their power, we expect that they will employ their private armies with restraint and discretion,"

Animatronik:I guess my whole issue with this is that I don't believe hormonal contraception or morning after pills should be covered by health insurance. Not a health issue.Doesn't protect you from arcs even.

/wanna get poked, pay for your own damn protection or make your boyfriend pay.

First of all, pain control. First thing they do when a woman has chronic pain is eliminate that time of the month for her because hormonal peaks and valleys increase the already-present pain. Secondly, there are a lot of drugs used today that result in miscarriage or damage fetuses. Third, medicine considers human birth to be a tremendously traumatic event. Until modern medicine, childbirth was the leading cause of death for women of childbearing age. The human form with our huge heads and our tiny pelvises are ill-suited to childbirth. For example, we are the only animal that literally tears its own pelvic bone during childbirth.

I understand I'm probably feeding a troll here, but birth control is a part of modern medicine. Period.

Given how much farkers whinge about religious institutions having tax exempt 501(c)(3) status, it's interesting that now the cry is "they're not a non-profit so they don't deserve a religious exemption" when Hobby Lobby has chosen to incorporate as a taxable entity.

remind hasty ambush that this Nation is still a Democracy, although a fading one, and that the Separation of Church and State can never be infringed. at least without a Revolution. those Church folks think they are going to turn this Nation into another Theocratic sh*thole like they have in the middle east, they have another Think coming....

So in a fading democracy ( I will explain the concept of a Republic to you some other time), in which Congress shall make no law establishing a state religion or interfering with the free practice of a religion you can be compelled to pay for somebody' else's birth control-an issue which is none is none business and a matter or personal privacy except that they can take your money for it.?

I see nothing in this case that states Hobby Lobby is trying to establish a state religion or even using tax revenue or government facilities to practice its religion. Hobby Lobby is not even refusing to pay taxes.

What Hobby Lobby is trying to be exempt from it a law that fines it for refusing to use its money (not the government's) for something that goes against its religious principles.

Mob rule does not get any prettier just because it calls itself democracy, one of the purposes of the Constitution is to protect the rights of the monority form the tyranny of the majority.

This is the problem with having employers in charge of health care for employees.It's possible to see both sides, sanely. I don't think Hobby Lobby should get an exemption under the criteria offered, and I deplore the Citizens United decision, but I'm not sure it's necessarily a fair law in the first place. When the government is fine with shifting the responsibility of providing health care/insurance to private corporations like Hobby Lobby and Papa John's, it doesn't seem quite fair to then dictate to them the minute terms of that care. Just on general principle. It's a strange, strange healthcare system or lack of one that we have developed in this country.Also, there is a real difference between contraception like the morning after pill and condoms on the one hand, which prevent fertilization, and the morning after pill, which prevents implantation of a fertilized egg. I may not personally agree with the viewpoint (I'm just unsure and have no problem admitting it), but if a company's corporate leadership truly believes that life begins at conception; it's hard to not see at least a point of argumentation that perhaps there is a problem with compelling them to pay for what they believe is murder. I'm interested in other alternatives to that - like what other ways as a society we could pick up the slack if Hobby Lobby DOES get the exemption; I don't believe the country is so uncreative that we couldn't figure out such alternatives.

They are not imposing anything. They do not require you to participate in a religious activity, force yo to pray or anything like that. They do not even prevent you from using your own money to buy your own birth control.

You are imposing your lifestyle on them by insisting they help finance your exchanging of bodily fluids with others.

Of course this begs the question of why work for a company whose beliefs so strongly contradict your own? It would be like and green party type working for Exxon or a anti gun rights/anti-second amendment type working for a high capacity magazine manufacturer.

Bit'O'Gristle:First of all its not about "your religion" it's about saving a buck by not having to shell out more dough to the insurance companies. Nice cover though.

I don't know. The businesses like this that back it up by staying closed on Sundays tend to lose a lot of money by doing so. We have a couple of smaller, local ones, that have been quite dedicated in staying closed in the face of what must be enormous economic pressure to open their doors, and I have to applaud the consistency. I don't think it's just a cover. Some people actually have genuine religious beliefs and try to reflect those in their businesses practices. Some people fail, but some people do try.

AnimatronikI guess my whole issue with this is that I don't believe hormonal contraception or morning after pills should be covered by health insurance. Not a health issue.Doesn't protect you from arcs even.

/wanna get poked, pay for your own damn protection or make your boyfriend pay.

1. Hormonal birth control isn't just for preventing pregnancy, its also for treating several health problems, like polycystic ovarian syndrome, endometriosis, etc.

2. Insurance companies (when not having right-wing idiots like Hobby Lobby trying to interfere) are generally happy to cover birth control, as covering pregnancy costs them much, much more.

3. Viagra is usually covered by insurance and it isn't used for reasons 1 and 2.

4. Getting insurance that covers birth control IS PAYING FOR YOUR OWN DAMN PROTECTION.

Do the world a favor and educate yourself before you open your ignorant mouth again.

Done in one - and I don't agree with CT often. If you're a for-profit company, you're required to follow the same laws every other for-profit company follows, regardless of the personal proclivities of your owners or directors.

Animatronik:I guess my whole issue with this is that I don't believe hormonal contraception or morning after pills should be covered by health insurance. Not a health issue.Doesn't protect you from arcs even.

What you believe and reality are two different things. Probably often, I would guess, but specifically in this case, there are other women's health issues at play, not just preventing (or otherwise dealing with) an unwanted pregnancy.

Even if your beliefs were congruent with reality, however. even if birth control were the ONLY issue here, it's still a question of a corporation trying to justify defying the law on religious grounds. If you don't think it makes sense for the government to mandate this level of health coverage, then oppose such health coverage --- change the system, in other words, or get out of the game, but don't try to cheat.

Oh, yeah, that's right, the religious right DID fight this law tooth and nail... and lost. Nobody appreciates them trying to do an end run after the game's been called.

Mr. Right:If Hobby Lobby now wants to get a waiver on covering certain health care costs, it should be allowed to do so.

Only if I can get a waiver on paying taxes towards your stupid wars. You really want an "a la carte" pay-only-for-what-you-approve-of taxation system in the USA? Because it would cut both ways, I assure you.

Unless, of course, you mean it should only work that way for conservatives. But I'm sure you're not that hypocritical.

You are imposing your lifestyle on them by insisting they help finance your exchanging of bodily fluids with others.

Yeah, how dare I want my health insurance to cover the treatment of various debilitating hormone conditions that are treatable through hormonal birth control .

Would you be okay with a Scientology-owned business refusing to allow their employees to get psych meds? Or Jehovah's Witness owned busiensses refusing to cover blood transfusions?

If you want to argue that they should have to cove the use of birth control pill sfor a medical purpose other than birth control fine but you know that is not the crux of what this argument is about.

If your employer feels drinking alcohol is sinful, should they have the right to ban you from spending your wages on beer? Should your employer have the right to require you to spend your paid vacation time on a missionary trip for their church?

Linux_Yes:F*cking is the most popular hobby on earth. Hobby Lobby needs to reevaluate its priorities.

It's a silly thing to get worked up over, but calling what themselves a "hobby" store is pretty dumb. They're an arts-and-crafts store. We already have a word for that: "arts and crafts." "Hobby" means something else entirely.

It would be like if I opened a store selling hair-care products and named it "The Body-Building Barn," y'know, because hair has body? Get it? Maybe I think that's a clever name but I'd still have an endless parade of fit, muscular men marching into my store and then walking out a few minutes later confused and disappointed. And that would be pointless, because I've already got a bedroom for that.

BolloxReader:Animatronik: I guess my whole issue with this is that I don't believe hormonal contraception or morning after pills should be covered by health insurance. Not a health issue.Doesn't protect you from arcs even.

/wanna get poked, pay for your own damn protection or make your boyfriend pay.

First of all, pain control. First thing they do when a woman has chronic pain is eliminate that time of the month for her because hormonal peaks and valleys increase the already-present pain. Secondly, there are a lot of drugs used today that result in miscarriage or damage fetuses. Third, medicine considers human birth to be a tremendously traumatic event. Until modern medicine, childbirth was the leading cause of death for women of childbearing age. The human form with our huge heads and our tiny pelvises are ill-suited to childbirth. For example, we are the only animal that literally tears its own pelvic bone during childbirth.

I understand I'm probably feeding a troll here, but birth control is a part of modern medicine. Period.

^All of this. Thank you. Biologist girlfriend and I often converse on how humans got the short end of the evolutionary stick in many respects, reproduction being one of the most terrifying.

/Another is our vertical spine. We'd have a lot less back pain if we were built horizontally with a balancing tail like maniraptors.//Prefer to get my fabric at Jo-Ann anyway. Neat thing about them is they also have a policy that their fabric sources can't have discriminatory practices, poor working conditions, or child labor.

ciberido:Mr. Right: If Hobby Lobby now wants to get a waiver on covering certain health care costs, it should be allowed to do so.

Only if I can get a waiver on paying taxes towards your stupid wars. You really want an "a la carte" pay-only-for-what-you-approve-of taxation system in the USA? Because it would cut both ways, I assure you.

Unless, of course, you mean it should only work that way for conservatives. But I'm sure you're not that hypocritical.

Health insurance is nothing like a tax going into general funds. Nice try, idiot.

Mr. Right:ciberido: Mr. Right: If Hobby Lobby now wants to get a waiver on covering certain health care costs, it should be allowed to do so.

Only if I can get a waiver on paying taxes towards your stupid wars. You really want an "a la carte" pay-only-for-what-you-approve-of taxation system in the USA? Because it would cut both ways, I assure you.

Unless, of course, you mean it should only work that way for conservatives. But I'm sure you're not that hypocritical.

Health insurance is nothing like a tax going into general funds. Nice try, idiot.

This. Hobby Lobby is not trying to avoid paying taxes but if you are working for them they are trying to avoid paying for your birth control and being fined for not doing so. Your body your business, their money their business.

The bottom line is that things like abortion and the morning after pill are things that a majority of Americans are either opposed to on moral grounds, or don't wish to have to pay for on moral grounds, even if they're OK with a woman having her right to choose. That is not an unreasonable point of view, and we're not talking about the feelings or beliefs of some whacko fringe group.

The best thing would be for corporations to give people vouchers for insurance. You want morning after pills, you pick a policy that offers them. Against blood transfusions or organ transplants? Fine, pick a policy that won't pay for them.

That's fair, and that's reasonable.

What's not reasonable is the government forcing this particular issue, which it should not be doing in a democratic republic.

Look at the numbers: Obamacare is destined to fail, in the sense that it will put private insurers out of business and result in a complete government takeover of the health business (yeah I know, it makes me sick to be sticking up for health insurance companies). This birth control/morning after pill business is just one aspect of the government knowing what's best for people and stomping on anyone who gets in their way.

Doesn't the basic rule of Dodge v Ford mean that the only duty of a for-profit corporation is profit for the shareholders? Trying to society a more moral place just isn't the company's job.

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

december:The problem with their position is that both the morning after pill and hormonal birth control can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus.

Last I heard, only the latter can. The original research wasn't clear, but it's recently been shown that the morning after pill only works by preventing ovulation in the first place; when ovulation has already occured, it doesn't do a damn thing.

Hasty AmbushIf you want to argue that they should have to cove the use of birth control pill sfor a medical purpose other than birth control fine but you know that is not the crux of what this argument is about.

So now I have to provide documentation to my employer that my pills are for a disease and not for sex, eh? What the hell happened to patient privacy?

And what is to stop a sympathetic doctor from simply claimining that I have menstrual problems when I actually don't?

Enemy of the StateThe bottom line is that things like abortion and the morning after pill are things that a majority of Americans are either opposed to on moral grounds, or don't wish to have to pay for on moral grounds, even if they're OK with a woman having her right to choose. That is not an unreasonable point of view, and we're not talking about the feelings or beliefs of some whacko fringe group.

This is about HORMONAL BIRTH CONTROL, not abortion or the morning-after pill. Most Americans don't oppose the use of hormonal birth control.

And the company isn't paying for it, the insurance that the employee pays for is paying for it.

StreetlightInTheGhetto:Look, if there are records, she has 2 years to file a claim. I'd say gather what evidence you can, quietly find a lawyer who should be more than happy to take an open and shut case (especially if they're looking to get their name out there) and go for it. http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/equalcompensation.cfm

I'll have her look into it. Personally, I'd love to see her fark over the guy who was her boss for his sexist BS.

Mr. Right:ciberido: Mr. Right: If Hobby Lobby now wants to get a waiver on covering certain health care costs, it should be allowed to do so.

Only if I can get a waiver on paying taxes towards your stupid wars. You really want an "a la carte" pay-only-for-what-you-approve-of taxation system in the USA? Because it would cut both ways, I assure you.

Unless, of course, you mean it should only work that way for conservatives. But I'm sure you're not that hypocritical.

Health insurance is nothing like a tax going into general funds. Nice try, idiot.

I suppose it hurts to feel so foolish. But I would have thought you'd have gotten used to it by now.

enemy of the state:Look at the numbers: Obamacare is destined to fail, in the sense that it will put private insurers out of business and result in a complete government takeover of the health business (yeah I know, it makes me sick to be sticking up for health insurance companies). This birth control/morning after pill business is just one aspect of the government knowing what's best for people and stomping on anyone who gets in their way.

enemy of the state:Look at the numbers: Obamacare is destined to fail, in the sense that it will put private insurers out of business and result in a complete government takeover of the health business (yeah I know, it makes me sick to be sticking up for health insurance companies). This birth control/morning after pill business is just one aspect of the government knowing what's best for people and stomping on anyone who gets in their way.

Wouldn't that be letting the people who pay for their health insurance, getting to decide what they get, and not letting their employers pick and choose what benefits they can have? I don't see this as stomping on anyone who gets in their way. If you are paying to be insured, why should your employer (granted they pay about half your policy), get to dictate what healthcare they can deny you based on religious grounds? Where does this end if they get a favorable ruling.

abb3w:BarkingUnicorn: Hobby Lobby is privately held. Shareholders are not an issue.

That means that the stock isn't publicly traded, not that there aren't shareholders.

It means that the corporation does not operate under the same rules that govern publicly traded corporations. Particularly the one that requires a corporation to put shareholders' pecuniary interests first.

MeanJean:Hasty AmbushIf you want to argue that they should have to cove the use of birth control pill sfor a medical purpose other than birth control fine but you know that is not the crux of what this argument is about.

So now I have to provide documentation to my employer that my pills are for a disease and not for sex, eh? What the hell happened to patient privacy?

And what is to stop a sympathetic doctor from simply claimining that I have menstrual problems when I actually don't?

Enemy of the StateThe bottom line is that things like abortion and the morning after pill are things that a majority of Americans are either opposed to on moral grounds, or don't wish to have to pay for on moral grounds, even if they're OK with a woman having her right to choose. That is not an unreasonable point of view, and we're not talking about the feelings or beliefs of some whacko fringe group.

This is about HORMONAL BIRTH CONTROL, not abortion or the morning-after pill. Most Americans don't oppose the use of hormonal birth control.

Uh, except for the fact that the article focuses on the morning after pill, and secondarily on IUDs. So, no, it doesn't appear that this is about hormonal birth control. If that's what you want to argue about, fine, and that's certainly an argument elsewhere, but it doesn't seem to be the focus here, and definitely not the ALL-CAPS focus.