OK, this other one is rather phylosophical but goes to the heart of the problem...the Lion.

The Larger Context For EconomicsWhat is the economic process for? To free our spirit from demands of the physical world, so that we can unfold higher and more creative potentialsby Francois Duquesne

I DON'T INTEND in half an hour to prosecute our ailing economies, but I thought - what do I want to share with you on the topic that's meaningful to me, and hopefully could be meaningful to you? That's what I'd like to talk about for half an hour.

You see, I don't believe personally that there is an economic problem in the world. *I know there is, I feel there is, a political problem*. I feel we have the resources at hand to feed and clothe and house everyone, but as long as we spend a million dollars a minute worldwide on armaments - just to mention one waste - as long as we lack the political will to harness these resources and to marshal them in the right direction, then what we are doing is patching at the seamwork. [In other works, we can't have real development when our resources are being dilapidated in wars. The problem is political.]

(snip)

One realizes that the industrial economies have reached a point where they can no longer meet the needs. And rather than waiting for that cycle to change at the top, what is happening in our community is that we start at the bottom. We start to recreate an economy that is grounded, that's not floating up there, that's not built on debt or inflation or illusions or greed or inflated need. [He's talking about the coops.]

Because that's the problem, the economy is floating up - inflated, literally - and what we need to do is ground it back to values that are sound, that meet the needs of people, because that's what the economic process was meant to do in the first place.

For instance, we are thinking of creating a credit union in our community, to facilitate the flow of savings coming together, and then we encourage people to think in terms of their assets. An exercise we do is, we tell them, you take a piece of paper and you address a balance sheet of your life. On the one hand you put your assets - from the physical to the emotional, to the mental, the psychological, and the spiritual - and on the other side you put your liabilities, physical and so forth. You put folks in touch with the richness that they have, and say, you've been given all this - talents, physical assets, etc. - what is it for? What does it mean to be a steward of the resources one has been given?

And that to me is engaging in reformulating our economy in a very immediate and personal way. It's not trying to beat the system, it's not trying to beat inflation or get ahead or having somehow a survivalist attitude of how can I get ahead during the inflationary times or the hard times that are ahead. But it's taking responsibility for our assets - our wealth - and seeing how that wealth can serve the greater needs of the community. [The same things Bader has been talking about.]

(snip)

I don't think it's useful to polarize ourselves into one system or the other. In our community we found we have to have both. We have the non-profit - the Foundation - and that's a particular mode of functioning; but we also have seen that that has its limits. People need the discipline of the marketplace, as it were, to test their muscle, to stand on their own feet. And if there is a community there, or a welfare state - an umbrella, that protects people from the realities of life - then there is no growth, there is no spiritual growth. [Well, I'm not growing physically at 50, but I'm still growing spiritually...;) The point though of having more of one system is what I propose.]

(snip)

So, these are a few thoughts which to me are meaningful, because they set the tone for engaging in economic activity. Out of that, the resources are already at hand - the conceptual tools, the practical tools, whether they are worker-owned cooperatives like the Mondragon system, or community banks that consecrate the savings of the local community for local reinvestment, whether they are the more participatory styles of management within the corporation, whether they are ingenious ways of reshaping the economic international order - all the proposals are there, the plans are there, the mechanisms, the ideas are there.

But what still is lacking is the political will or the imagination to put them into action. [Well, we don't have the political power but we have the imagination to put them into action, don't we?]

>>>And if there is a community there, or a welfare state - an umbrella, that protects people from the realities of life - then there is no growth, there is no spiritual growth. <<<

I think he is saying we need challenges in our life to grow spiritually. I agree with that.

There are a few things in western society that I do not believe should be based on the business model and one is healthcare.
It should be based on a charitable model without interference from pencil pushing insurance companies or governments that will determine, based on cost, your medical options.

There should be some competitiveness between ideologies such as naturopathic, or orthodox, or eastern medicine, and whichever one gets the results - a healthy populace - will thrive. As long as they don't form monopolistic cartels and begin making demands instead of providing a service to mankind it will be ok.

Is Aid a nice sugar coated word for IMF loans?
DonQs reply is correct in my view.
I have explained why the books dont balance because its the bankers game and aid/investments from abroad mean you rent part of your house out hoping to free it, first one room then two,
then you move out for more rent off it while you live in the park.

A democratic society will have their own money system to provide for their needs. They dont need to borrow anyone elses money than borrow another countries roads.

You got it right Woj, banks are the top lion in national and international affairs. An invisible govt over govts is how I have put it.
I have never heard of banks paying interest to govt, perhaps if a state central bank as the sole creator of money lends money to private banks they might. I dont know of any.
Gold or no gold, interest rates are set by demand for money
just as other commodities in the market.
The Reserve bank system (one central bank) which I believe has been set by the IMF, determine the rate of inflation by the balance between the banks- all banks hold cheques drawn on each other that are deposited by their clients, the outstanding balance is called the overnight cash rate, the balance will indicate an increase or leveling or decrease in new money/expansion of the money supply, thus it will later be reflected in rising or lowering the rate of inflation and thus the Reserve Bank will then make any change in the general rate of interest to either allow an increase, a decrease or maintain the current rate at which money is being created. THis of course is a form of interferrence in the economy
for the purposes of smoothing it out for the betterment of all,
which is what govts tried to do anyway. Just another example of the free market double speak.
So banks can create money way beyond the 10% reserve that used to be tradtional, but the result will start to show in the overnight cash rate and thus if they overdo it the rate of interest will be put up to discourage borrowers. That is the system of limitation.
To give you an idea of the creativity of the banks, when the Japanese banking system had a hurnia back about 1990 they were creating $600 of bank credit to $1 of equity, the bubble had to burst. It will be common to find it around the 300 mark in a
number of countries I am picking.

The Baron knew what Jefferson knew.

Pliny:
Money as a claim on goods and services have the value of the
goodsd and services it can buy. Same as gold. What they can buy will depend on the value of gold and the value/price of the goods and services. Inflation will erode any money.
Someone actually recommended that money have a used by date
after which it devalues down which has the purpose of making
people spend it in the same cycle it was released in.

If you think the system I support is much the same as the current you either misunderstand the one or the other, they are very different. The only thing they have in common is no gold.

DonQ:
FRancois Duquesne is saying what I was saying about the father and son, the farmer with land seed and a tractor.
The nation can run on the principle of the coop- all joint owners
with value factors to contribute, varying from on to another, as she pointed out, which they monetarise to facititate
the action- a joint bank serving this end as a servant not a lion. They dont need to look to a foreign banker or grant a corporation exclusive right to monetarise the peoples credit ( the
productivity of their assets- human and technical) and get them
into debt and under their control when they can form their own bank just as another coop industrial/commercial unit.
A certain school of thought call this the Social Credit.
This is how New Zealand got out of the great depression.
Circulate those little pieces of paper throughout the national coop
and everyone holding them - having its guarantee of a share of the goods and services will start to use them facilitating industry
and trade as they vote with them.
This is what Francois was looking for but clearly has no understanding of the banking system.
When money is created for the purposes of the budget of the economy, the outcome which is material balances the abstract
money tokens, whether it be goods and services, roads and bridges, other types of social and commercial infrastructure. These are the gold of the standard of living. This is what industry and commerce (economies) are for.
FRancois can see there is no need for an arbitrary dictator of any kind ( gold or no gold is my argument of course)

There is never a shortage of federally funded projects that sound comical, sexy or insane -- and thus wasteful. President Ronald Reagan enjoyed condemning a federally funded ``gondola transportation study'' in Idaho, of all places, and his successor, George H.W. Bush, liked to tut-tut about an appropriation for a Lawrence Welk museum in North Dakota.

This year's Pig Book runneth over, too: $50 million for an indoor rainforest in Iowa; $400,000 for the Medical Institute of Sexual Health in Texas; $1.7 million for the International Fertilizer Development Center in Alabama.

>>>And if there is a community there, or a welfare state - an umbrella, that protects people from the realities of life - then there is no growth, there is no spiritual growth. <<<

<I think he is saying we need challenges in our life to grow spiritually. I agree with that.>

Howdy Pliny
I undertood the message, but disagree with such a clear-cut statement that something that doesn't grow physically or economically is stagnant. I'd argue the kibbutz have a lot of room at the left of the ever growing coops, employee owned and libertarian enterprises. Anyway it should better than any welfare scheme or even charity. Both rely on giving them the fish; the coops teach them how to fish. How would you feel is someone gave you something you can't procure yourself? A failure perhaps? Or is it that you become part of the scheme itself?

In the movie I spoke about recently, Saving Grace, the town had sufferered a plague 4 years before, but kept faking it years later in order to get the handouts!

<There are a few things in western society that I do not believe should be based on the business model and one is healthcare.
It should be based on a charitable model without interference from pencil pushing insurance companies or governments that will determine, based on cost, your medical options.

There should be some competitiveness between ideologies such as naturopathic, or orthodox, or eastern medicine, and whichever one gets the results - a healthy populace - will thrive. As long as they don't form monopolistic cartels and begin making demands instead of providing a service to mankind it will be ok. >

I don't know which particular system works better, but Canada's Single Payer, is much cheaper than America's while insuring everybody and providing preventive care. It's perhaps the best private healtcare system in the world and it can be compared with the socialized healthcare systems in the European countries.

<You got it right Woj, banks are the top lion in national and international affairs. An invisible govt over govts is how I have put it.>

The Lion rarely becomes visible like this past Sunday on Fox news. It was this guy from Wall Street demanding tough action in Iraq because the Market "suffered" the effects of instability... And who suffers the big consequences? Who pays the consequences if not the little people? THE MARQUET IS DRIVING US RIGHT INTO WAR AND ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION WITHOUT HOPE. The hungry stupid Lion is on the loose...:mad:

<FRancois Duquesne is saying what I was saying about the father and son, the farmer with land seed and a tractor.
The nation can run on the principle of the coop- all joint owners
with value factors to contribute, varying from on to another, as she pointed out, which they monetarise to facititate
the action- a joint bank serving this end as a servant not a lion.>

"If we are going to talk about economic development, helping people reach their full development as human persons, benefitting the common good, and enhancing the dignity of the human person, we have to talk about practical ways to implement these ideals."

Hey Bader, this would be something truly Christian...

"IV. INSTRUMENTAL AND SUBORDINATE NATURE OF CAPITAL

Generally, a corporation sells shares of ownership and management to raise capital, and then hires labor. The Mondragon Cooperatives do not sell shares in order to raise capital. Here, the workers own the enterprise and the management and rent the capital."

And this is the Tamed Lion...

MONDRAGON: A BETTER WAY TO GO TO WORK?

This is one of the success stories of people who take the Church's social doctrine seriously, in particular, the teachings regarding (1) the dignity of the human person and his or her labor, (2) social solidarity, (3) the primacy of labor over capital. In most for profit businesses, labor is hired at the service of capital. For the Mondragon cooperatives, capital is something they rent to benefit the worker-owners.

To Americans, this sounds like an Employee Stock Ownership Plan, but the Mondragon model is not only about distribution of the profits, it is also about the control of the business. Management is elected by the workers, not hired by the money men, and the managers are part of the cooperative process in the enterprise. Each enterprise has a social committee that considers issues of health, safety, environment, and the social responsibilities of the enterprise. Capital is borrowed, stock is not sold for financing. All new employees become worker owners.

A new cooperative begins with a group of friends. Experience in starting 120 businesses over a 40 year period has taught the Mondragon cooperators that the pre-existing bonds of friendship are a good basis for building a productive working relationship. The Mondragon association provides business and marketing research and assistance; their bank provides capital. The workers themselves must invest some of their own money, either as an upfront contribution or as deductions from wages paid over a 2 year period (about $5,000). Their bank sticks with the new co-op until they can go it alone; if the business gets into trouble, interest on their loans is waived, payments may be suspended, and parts of the loans may be forgiven. The group may be assisted into another line of business or work. As a result, since 1956, they have had only one total failure of a cooperative.

Ten percent of corporate profits are donated to charity, 40% are retained by the cooperative to be used to benefit the "common good" of the cooperative (research, development, job creation, etc.), and the balance of the profits goes into capital accounts for the worker owners. These funds may be borrowed against at the cooperative's bank at very low interest rates, and are important parts of the social security arrangements.

Democracy in the workplace? Capital at the service of Labor? It all sounds idealistic I'm sure, except for the fact that it is actually working, profitable, and growing. The cooperative business model is not a stranger to Oklahoma, most rural areas have farmer's cooperatives and there are credit unions everywhere, but the Mondragon model of worker-owners is a different twist to what is typically found around here. If we are going to talk about economic development, helping people reach their full development as human persons, benefitting the common good, and enhancing the dignity of the human person, we have to talk about practical ways to implement these ideals. This is what the Mondragon Cooperatives of Spain have done, and it is a model that can be considered for implementation right here in Oklahoma -- if we ever decide to take the social doctrines of the Church as seriously as we do the other teachings of the Faith.

Basic Principles of the Mondragon Cooperatives of Spain

This summary consists of both direct quotes (in "") and our summary of the Mondragon text.

I. OPEN ADMISSION

The Cooperatives do not discriminate on the basic of religious, political, ethnic, or sex when it comes to becoming a member of the Cooperative.

II. DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZATION

All authority is vested in the "general assembly," which consists of all the worker owners of the enterprise, one person one vote. The general assembly elects the "Governing Council", which would be like the Board of Directors, which appoints (and removes) the organization's management..

III. SOVEREIGNTY OF LABOR

"In the MCC Co-operatives it is understood that Labor is the main factor for transforming nature, society and human beings themselves. As a result, Labor is granted full sovereignty in the organization of the co-operative enterprise, the wealth created is distributed in terms of the labor provided and there is a firm commitment to the creation of new jobs. As far as the wealth generated by the Co-operative is concerned, this is distributed among the members in proportion to their labor and not on the basis of their holding in Share Capital. The pay policy of MCC's co-operatives takes its inspiration from principles of Solidarity, which are materialized in sufficient remuneration for labor on the basis of solidarity."

Worker owners receive competitive and just salaries and dividends based on the profitability of the co-op.

IV. INSTRUMENTAL AND SUBORDINATE NATURE OF CAPITAL

Generally, a corporation sells shares of ownership and management to raise capital, and then hires labor. The Mondragon Cooperatives do not sell shares in order to raise capital. Here, the workers own the enterprise and the management and rent the capital.

V. PARTICIPATORY MANAGEMENT

"This Principle implies the progressive development of self-management and, consequently, of the participation of the members in business management. This requires: (1) The development of adequate mechanisms and channels for participation. (2) Transparent information with respect to the performance of the basic management variables of the Co-operative. (3) The use of methods of consultation and negotiation with the worker-members and their social representatives in those economic, organizational and labor decisions which affect them. (4) The systematic application of social and professional training plans.

(5) The establishment of internal promotion as a basic means of covering positions with greater professional responsibility."

VI. PAYMENT SOLIDARITY

" The Mondrag?n Co-operative Experience declares sufficient payment based on solidarity to be a basic principle of its management. Solidarity is manifest both internally and externally, as well as at the Corporate level."

VII. INTERCOOPERATION

The Cooperatives cooperate with each other, with other cooperatives in the area, and with national and international cooperative organizations.

VIII. SOCIAL TRANSFORMATION

The Cooperatives acknowledge a duty to contribute to the common good: (1) by reinvesting a high proportion of their profits, including regular investments in community funds for job creation; (2) 10% of the net profit of the Cooperatives is donated to charitable organizations; (3) taking care of their social security, unemployment, and health insurance requirements (through a cooperative owner by the other cooperatives; and (4) being active in their community.

IX. UNIVERSALITY

"The Mondrag?n Co-operative Experience, as an expression of its universal vocation, proclaims its solidarity with all those who work for economic democracy in the sphere of the Social Economy and supports the objectives of Peace, Justice and Development, characteristic of the International Co-operative Movement. Likewise, through OTALORA, which is our Business and Co-operative Training Centre, we try and disseminate co-operative culture on the basis of our own social-economic experience, developed over the last 40 years."

X. EDUCATION

"Education and Training have played a decisive role in the creation and development of the Mondrag?n Co-operative Movement. Its founder and main driving force, the priest Jos? Mar?a Arizmendiarrieta, was always quite clear that 'education, understanding as such the complex of ideas and concepts adopted by a man, is the key to the development and progress of a people'. Insisting on this idea, Father Arizmendiarrieta liked to repeat 'that education is the natural and indispensable cornerstone for the promotion of a new humane and just social order' and that 'knowledge has to be socialised to democratise power'.

"Therefore, on the basis of this approach, the first thing he did when he came to Mondrag?n was to create the Polytechnic School in 1943 (today Mondrag?n Eskola Politeknikoa), which during all these years has been the main source of managers and skilled workers for our co-operatives."

On that last quote about growth. He is talking about spiritual growth - how did you stretch that to physical or economic growth?

Bader.

You said:>>>If you think the system I support is much the same as the current you either misunderstand the one or the other, they are very different. The only thing they have in common is no gold.<<<

The only thing I see as different is you don't approve of credit.

One more thing, I differentiate between money and currency.
Somehow I get the idea you feel they are the same.
Currency is the medium of exchange, be it paper, electronics, sticks, shells, gold, platinum, silver, whatever.
When gold was used as the medium of exchange or currency, because of it's value, it was both money and currency. It was a clumsy currency but because people valued it and it represented wealth, all by itself, it was kept as money but bills or IOUs were substituted and could be redeemed for actual money. Banks then started issuing these bills themselves to their clients, people who deposited gold in their trust.

Today's currency does not represent anything of value. It is accepted as a currency or medium of exchange based solely on the sayso of government and the banks. It has no other value. Because the government has run up debt it means the currency is actually credit that is owed to the banks. They can therefore refrain from issuing credit whenever they like and bankrupt a nation, corporation or individual at their whim.

David R. Hoffman ******A few months ago an article in PRAVDA proclaimed that Satan was living in the United States of America.,
I remember thinking, tongue only slightly-in-cheek, that while this article may have accurately pinpointed the correct country, it missed the exact locale. Almost everyone in the world (outside of the United States of course) knows that Satan has, for the past few years, lived in opulent luxury in Washington D.C., personified by the avaricious, hypocritical, corrupt, deceitful, bloodthirsty, thieving, warmongering dictatorship of George W. Bush and his minions.********
Evil assassinations?; Assassination of Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand was good thing and lead finally to elimination of Austrian Empire and freedom to Hungary and Balkan nations... Kennedy assassination was miracle for many attempts to assassinate the Castro, McKinnley assassination improved existence of working class . But I think that Satans in Bush , Clinton and Gorbachew and their minions bodies stay in shame and total world condemnation for thousand years of future generation .
But let us to talk about evil. Great religion of the past had association with the great empires- Zoroastrianism in Persia (Iran) Darius the Great, Buddhism with Indian empire, Confucianism and Taoism with China, Christianity with Roman Empire.
Varieties of angels and demons in the religions of the world in Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Zoroastrianism named after the prophet Zoroaster was the state religion of three successive Persian empire under Darius the the Great (521-486). Zoroaster has been called the first monotheist, teaching that Ahura Mazda the wise lord and the Creator of all things by Holly Spirit embodied ultimate god, eternally opposed by Angra Mainyu the sprit of ultimate evil. Man was free to chose between good and evil, and if he he chose righteousness he would be rewarded. In their emphasis on the idea of heaven and hell, resurrection. The teaching of Zoroaster had the a profound influence on later religions- Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
(The World history by Geoffrey Parker. . )
So Bush

Woj: social credit financing got NZ out of the great depression not into it. The developed world needed world war two, used the Third Reich to get their economies back on their feet.
Hitler made the same choice to turn back on the international bankers and create their own internal money instead of borrowing into the international dictatorship. He had to go just as Lincoln and Kennedy.
The Governor Generals are chosen by Govt who advise the Queen
who is a figurehead. The govn Gen. is also a figurehead who has a formal role to immitate what used to be. The previous govt of the present Labour Party headed now by Clark who you mentioned was the party (leftwing) that introduced thr free
market revolution after the election having not campaigned on it, nothing said, then when in power commited treason. They reduced the Govr Gen to a rubber stamp, he should have dumped the Govt for betraying the election. They also took treason out of the crimes act before they started the free market reforms.
The oppositrion and press were already on side so the people
remained mutes. THats how democricy works.

The Mondragon system is based on the right principles.
THey shouldnt have to borrow outside capital, a national credit
authority should seed fund the operation just as under itss unbrella new coops will be seed funded. Its a model whole nations should be run on, so there shouldnt be a Lion except in the zoo.
However when it comes to divying out the profits they ahve a
socialistic structure that can grow more socialistic.
Nationally eberyone should get a dividend on which they are supplimenting their income which inhances their individual sovereignty. The divying system in the Mondragon system tends to control what they get and dependant on the management, that ok because people can freely chose to remain in that but
in the wider society the Govt aught not to replicate the management of who gets what and what they can do with it.

Howdy, corporate capitalism thrives on a scarcity so the little animals MUST drink from the water well it controls. It rings a bell to me...

VEGETARIANISM AGAINST WORLD HUNGER

If you want to put the welfare of humanity first, you can hardly do better than become vegan. Author of Animal Liberation, Peter Singer, states that if Americans were to reduce their meat consumption by only 10 % for one year, it would free at least 12 million tons of grain for human consumption. That is enough to feed 60 million people. If Americans stopped eating grain-fed beef altogether, the whole population of India could be fed.

Instead we feed grain, corn, and soybeans to livestock. It takes up to 16 pounds of grain and soybeans to produce 1 pound of beef. Ninety to 100% of the protein, carbohydrate, and dietary fiber of grains are lost through the cycling of grain through livestock.

Help world hunger by continually learning about and eating plant foods.

<I remember thinking, tongue only slightly-in-cheek, that while this article may have accurately pinpointed the correct country, it missed the exact locale. Almost everyone in the world (outside of the United States of course) knows that Satan has, for the past few years, lived in opulent luxury in Washington D.C., personified by the avaricious, hypocritical, corrupt, deceitful, bloodthirsty, thieving, warmongering dictatorship of George W. Bush and his minions.********>

Howdy Woj
I get a feeling you don't like Bush...

<I don-t think that any of ****our evils**** believe in it, but for sure, they maintain it for us , to keep us obedient to the government and power.>

<However when it comes to divying out the profits they ahve a
socialistic structure that can grow more socialistic.
Nationally eberyone should get a dividend on which they are supplimenting their income which inhances their individual sovereignty. The divying system in the Mondragon system tends to control what they get and dependant on the management, that ok because people can freely chose to remain in that but
in the wider society the Govt aught not to replicate the management of who gets what and what they can do with it. >

Howdy Bader
I don't know whether they should grow more socialistic toward outsiders. I'll explain, outside the coops the world is not so good. Where do people go? Right, they join the coops. Socialism may better be kept inside. No lion inside the coops, good lion outside them...

I think perhaps you didnt get what I was on about. Mondragon
is a great entity and in the main the principles are much the same as I advocate. Coops can vary so a variety would allow people to chose plus what one finds that makes an improvement can be picked up by others.
The management is elected by the members and the allocation of profits is as the members want and they were good but when it comes to making that model for a nation to follow (the principles) there might not be the same closeness and control of the elected so if one isnt carefull the allocation may start to become a political game within the system as has happened in the one we are wanting to escape.

"capitalism thrives on scarcity''

The banking system certainly does. I would suggest that a better descriptive phrase is "poverty in the midst of plenty"

The poor nations cannot afford grain so it might as well be fed to cattle for selling meat to the nations who can pay top dollar.
That is natural free enterprise. What is wrong is when govt subsidizes grain farmers to grow less and more so the dumping
of food to keep prices up.
The debt burdon demands top prices. The debt burdon prevents developing nations from buying grain and all the other things that get dumped.
If we all become vegetarians, they will focus on madcow desease and burn the lot for the insurance and Taxpayers subsidy, the bankers wont change the money system.

You say I dont approve of credit.
That is a strange one, I have said plenty about credit, that is what
the system I support is based on instead of gold as you would have it.
Your point that debt makes the credit of the borrower the property of the lender (until the debt is repaid) is true and I have talked about this, and it is the main reason I put forward to change from letting the bank monetarize the peoples credit when the can do it themselves and no debt/loss of control. THe people own the credit the currency is based on. THis is the cruz of the matter, so how did you conclude I dont approve of credit?
Money and currency are the same, I just checked the dictionary.

I agree banker can refrain from issuing money (loans) just as they can declare an emergency and call in all loans and bring down millions of businesses. THat is further erason people should
issue their own credit, as I advocate.

<The management is elected by the members and the allocation of profits is as the members want and they were good but when it comes to making that model for a nation to follow (the principles) there might not be the same closeness and control of the elected so if one isnt carefull the allocation may start to become a political game within the system as has happened in the one we are wanting to escape.>

Exactly, that's why the coops are always going to be better, while the State only can wish for a tamed lion. But that's fine so people can choose.

"capitalism thrives on scarcity''

<The banking system certainly does. I would suggest that a better descriptive phrase is "poverty in the midst of plenty">

5% of the people having 100 times what the need; 50% having ends meet; 10% not having enough to eat. The remaining people? Probably the foxes, hyenas, snakes joining the Lion in the Big Feast...

<The poor nations cannot afford grain so it might as well be fed to cattle for selling meat to the nations who can pay top dollar.
That is natural free enterprise. What is wrong is when govt subsidizes grain farmers to grow less and more so the dumping
of food to keep prices up.
The debt burdon demands top prices. The debt burdon prevents developing nations from buying grain and all the other things that get dumped.
If we all become vegetarians, they will focus on madcow desease and burn the lot for the insurance and Taxpayers subsidy, the bankers wont change the money system.>

Perhaps we can aim at a PARTIAL vegetarianism, and our health would be happy. It's amazing the variety of meat substitutes out there. It's a matter of education and having choices. Regrettably the little people don't even know there's such a choice right now. The Lion keeps them eating worst than the livestock...:confused:

Bader ; If fact that N.Z is solely responsible for their problems, not UK , will make you happy I can agree.
I also support your statement ***** I agree banker can refrain from issuing money (loans) just as they can declare an emergency and call in all loans and bring down millions of businesses. That is further reason people should
issue their own credit, as I advocate. *****, especially that such economy provide not only economical but also political independence.

donq; Evil stories, as well as church teaching is generally supportive for most governments. Obedience towards god is very easy extend to obedience towards government. Especially when head of earth power is automatically head of church as for example in UK.
Donq; *******I get a feeling you don't like Bush... *******