I'm pretty certain Sakurai wants a new Pokemon to toy around in Smash Bros, pretty sure it could be Zoroark.

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Zoroark really isn't popular anymore, though, and there are plenty of other ways for Sakurai to toy around with the Pokemon series if he wants to - especially since Jigglypuff is getting retyped as Fairy for X and Y and three Smash veterans are getting mega evolutions.

I'm pretty certain Sakurai wants a new Pokemon to toy around in Smash Bros, pretty sure it could be Zoroark.

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Zoroark really isn't popular anymore, though, and there are plenty of other ways for Sakurai to toy around with the Pokemon series if he wants to - especially since Jigglypuff is getting retyped as Fairy for X and Y and three Smash veterans are getting mega evolutions.

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He's still KIND of popular. Just not as much as Lucario. I do think the fact that he's a Dark Type is worth something and he is similar to Lucario's popularity.

Is there really any problem with Chrom replacing Ike?
He's highly likely to be added "if" Intellegent Systems recommended another FE character.

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THIS MUST BE THE NINE MILLIONTH FUCKING TIME I'VE SAID THIS!!!!!!!!!!: Yes, that is a problem, Ike is more popular and requested and had 2 installments unlike all, but 2 Lords (Marth & Leif). If it comes down to 2 Fire Emblem reps than Chrom will likely be an Assist Trophy.

I am just trying to find a way to give the roster something new. If we keep the Brawl roster and just add Mewtwo, besides movesets changes, the roster will have no newcomers and just a returning veteran. That stands out when Pokemon has always at least one new character each roster.

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The major purpose for adding new Pokemon characters into the roster - according to Sakurai, at least - isn't solely to add new characters into the game; it's to keep the roster updated with whatever characters are currently popular in the franchise. Had we seen no Pokemon game releases between Brawl and Smash 4 the pokemon reps (number AND characters) would have almost definitely remained the same.

That said, there's a very simple workaround to your problem: don't use the standard Mewtwo at all.

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Oh yeah that reminds me, the fact that Mewtwo now has TWO Mega forms I think it is pretty safe to say that if Sakurai does decide to ask Game Freak for their opinion I'm almost certain it would be Mewtwo, as he now seems to be the one of the most advertised Pokemon for X and Y. A movie, TWO Mega forms and being one of the first Pokemon revelaed is a good example of how much Mewtwo is practically being thrown on us again. Also, X and Y seems like it will have a genetic theme (there are a lot of clues to this, so who is better than the GENETIC Pokemon himself. I seriously think that reveal just upped his priority even more.

He even stated his own Pokemon criteria clearly this year. I'm pretty sure Zoroark (or the new Pokemon) is high priority in development

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"Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front.

For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.

But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things."
-Sakurai

Zoroark fits literally none of those criteria, and he also doesn't fit Sakurai's general criteria of characters being adapted to Smash Bros. gameplay.

I kinda have this thought of Mario vs. Sonic vs. Pac-Man vs. Megaman, the biggest videogame icons fighting against each other that Sakurai might actually think about. I really wanna keep Sonic, but if I have to replace him, then I'll use Professor Layton as my alternate.
Harry is a secret unlockable character, you could call him a retro if needed. I really can't put much more second-parties since I would have to organize it a little more differently.

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Wait........You SERIOUSLY don't have Takamaru!? Instead you have Harry!? Who even knows who he is? Why do we need to represent Virtual Boy characters!? That's like if Sakurai wanted a new character so he went outside digging for turds.

Can you PLEASE put a disclaimer that this is an IDEA roster. Because people are going to end up thinking you are stupid if you pass it off as a Prediction Roster.

He even stated his own Pokemon criteria clearly this year. I'm pretty sure Zoroark (or the new Pokemon) is high priority in development

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"Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front.

For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.

But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things."
-Sakurai

Zoroark fits literally none of those criteria, and he also doesn't fit Sakurai's general criteria of characters being adapted to Smash Bros. gameplay.

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I'm pretty sure Sakurai would see Zoroark as the most unique, that might be one reason he could get chosen.

I kinda have this thought of Mario vs. Sonic vs. Pac-Man vs. Megaman, the biggest videogame icons fighting against each other that Sakurai might actually think about. I really wanna keep Sonic, but if I have to replace him, then I'll use Professor Layton as my alternate.
Harry is a secret unlockable character, you could call him a retro if needed. I really can't put much more second-parties since I would have to organize it a little more differently.

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Wait........You SERIOUSLY don't have Takamaru!? Instead you have Harry!? Who even knows who he is? Why do we need to represent Virtual Boy characters!? That's like if Sakurai wanted a new character so he went outside digging for turds.

Can you PLEASE put a disclaimer that this is an IDEA roster. Because people are going to end up thinking you are stupid if you pass it off as a Prediction Roster.

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To free a character from Virtual Boy hell, and make him the secret WTF character.

He even stated his own Pokemon criteria clearly this year. I'm pretty sure Zoroark (or the new Pokemon) is high priority in development

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"Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front.

For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.

But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things."
-Sakurai

Zoroark fits literally none of those criteria, and he also doesn't fit Sakurai's general criteria of characters being adapted to Smash Bros. gameplay.

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Dude, we know Lucario comes before Zoroark, but don't go around spewing pure "Grade-A" BULL SHIT.
Zoroark CLEARLY has TONS of things unique to her. She's a freaking Dark type. And she does fit in with everything else because she has all the merits of Lucario despite that Lucario is better received. She has tons of things and fits the criteria Perfectly!

This is actually a pretty interesting question; I think that the X version (the one I posted) would be the optimal choice for a few reasons:

1. It's closer to Mewtwo's current 3D model (and there's evidence that he had one prepared for Brawl)
2. Psychic/Fighting typing means that he could have a completely revamped moveset
3. Related to the last point: Mewtwo was a bad character in Melee because of his light weight, floatiness and lack of powerful KO options. Using the X version could serve as an excuse to give him both a defensive (because he is actually larger than standard Mewtwo in the games) and offensive (because of his increased attack) boost while keeping some of his Melee attacks intact - hell, Sakurai could even make this a plot element for the Pokemon cutscene if he really wanted to.

He even stated his own Pokemon criteria clearly this year. I'm pretty sure Zoroark (or the new Pokemon) is high priority in development

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"Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front.

For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.

But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things."
-Sakurai

Zoroark fits literally none of those criteria, and he also doesn't fit Sakurai's general criteria of characters being adapted to Smash Bros. gameplay.

I kinda have this thought of Mario vs. Sonic vs. Pac-Man vs. Megaman, the biggest videogame icons fighting against each other that Sakurai might actually think about. I really wanna keep Sonic, but if I have to replace him, then I'll use Professor Layton as my alternate.
Harry is a secret unlockable character, you could call him a retro if needed. I really can't put much more second-parties since I would have to organize it a little more differently.

Click to expand...

Wait........You SERIOUSLY don't have Takamaru!? Instead you have Harry!? Who even knows who he is? Why do we need to represent Virtual Boy characters!? That's like if Sakurai wanted a new character so he went outside digging for turds.

Can you PLEASE put a disclaimer that this is an IDEA roster. Because people are going to end up thinking you are stupid if you pass it off as a Prediction Roster.

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To free a character from Virtual Boy hell, and make him the secret WTF character.

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You know that's a bull crap reason BluePikmin11. I feel you are always fully aware when you are spewing Bull Crap. You can't add a character SOLELY because they are WTF. Wii Fit Trainer actually earned her spot and Sakurai doesn't add characters because they are on a random system.

"Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front.

For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.

But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things."
-Sakurai

Zoroark fits literally none of those criteria, and he also doesn't fit Sakurai's general criteria of characters being adapted to Smash Bros. gameplay.

Wait........You SERIOUSLY don't have Takamaru!? Instead you have Harry!? Who even knows who he is? Why do we need to represent Virtual Boy characters!? That's like if Sakurai wanted a new character so he went outside digging for turds.

Can you PLEASE put a disclaimer that this is an IDEA roster. Because people are going to end up thinking you are stupid if you pass it off as a Prediction Roster.

Click to expand...

To free a character from Virtual Boy hell, and make him the secret WTF character.

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You know that's a bull crap reason BluePikmin11. I feel you are always fully aware when you are spewing Bull Crap. You can't add a character SOLELY because they are WTF. Wii Fit Trainer actually earned her spot and Sakurai doesn't add characters because they are on a random system.

Just stahp!

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Well to be more clear, this could be the Nintendo character Sakurai chosen, because he could pick someone from a system no one knows about. That's what makes him a WTF character. And to be fair, Teleroboxer is a decent game enough for him to be in Smash, and also unique because he is a fighting robot, different from the rest of the cast. (I'm declining in reason today )

Dude, we know Lucario comes before Zoroark, but don't go around spewing pure "Grade-A" BULL SHIT.
Zoroark CLEARLY has TONS of things unique to her. She's a freaking Dark type. And she does fit in with everything else because she has all the merits of Lucario despite that Lucario is better received. She has tons of things and fits the criteria Perfectly!

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I've already explained perfectly well why Zoroark doesn't fit the criteria - there's no way to effectively implement her into the game - not as of now, at least. If it turns out that she gets a mega evolution that may be a different story, but there's still no way in hell that she'd outprioritize the second/third (arguably) most characters in the Pokemon series.

Also, lol if you think typing matters in the slightest for uniqueness. Let's look at Zoroark's non-TM moves that are dark-typed:

Pursuit/Sucker Punch/Foul Play: Okay... they're counters, basically

Night Daze: A shockwave... which would almost certainly be implemented as a standard projectile.

Taunt: The only really interesting one of the bunch, though its effect (which would probably be implemented as disabling special moves) would be really broken since it would make characters unable to recover.

Night slash: it's a slash, except Dark. I guess it could work like a G/W hammer or a misfire where it has a certain crit chance, though slashing moves would probably be the majority of Zoroark's moveset anyway.

How about Zoroarks Illusion move becomes a counter attack, when the player attacks Zoroark, he turns into the player to counterattack with the same move.
Then the rest of the moves could Wolf-like moves.

I've already explained perfectly well why Zoroark doesn't fit the criteria - there's no way to effectively implement her into the game

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Dude, Illusion is just a unique ability to Zoroark. This is like saying Jigglypuff can't be implemented because all she does is sing. What mentality is this!? And you are comparing Zoroark to Togepi? Why aren't you comparing Mewtwo to Togepi?

You seem to think it's all Zoroark does as if he is ditto. Zoroark has Shadow Ball, Night Slash, Scary Face, Torment, Night Daze, Shadow Claw, The list goes on.

I've already explained perfectly well why Zoroark doesn't fit the criteria - there's no way to effectively implement her into the game

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Dude, Illusion is just a unique ability to Zoroark. This is like saying Jigglypuff can't be implemented because all she does is sing. What mentality is this!? And you are comparing Zoroark to Togepi? Why aren't you comparing Mewtwo to Togepi?

You seem to think it's all Zoroark does as if he is ditto. Zoroark has Shadow Ball, Night Slash, Scary Face, Torment, Night Daze, Shadow Claw, The list goes on.

What on EARTH are you talking about!?

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I'm getting flashbacks to the time you had genesect support you had for about a week.

How about Zoroarks Illusion move becomes a counter attack, when the player attacks Zoroark, he turns into the player to counterattack with the same move.
Then the rest of the moves could Wolf-like moves.

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I don't know how Zoroark is shown in the movies because I don't watch them, in the games however Zoroarks illusion ability is a gimmick, it wears off the second you get hit, not that advantageous and not really viable in a fighting character scenario. Mewtwo and Lucario make much more sense and since they have both had a turn in the game, it would be nice to have them both in at the same time so this can happen.

I've already explained perfectly well why Zoroark doesn't fit the criteria - there's no way to effectively implement her into the game

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Dude, Illusion is just a unique ability to Zoroark. This is like saying Jigglypuff can't be implemented because all she does is sing. What mentality is this!? And you are comparing Zoroark to Togepi? Why aren't you comparing Mewtwo to Togepi?

You seem to think it's all Zoroark does as if he is ditto. Zoroark has Shadow Ball, Night Slash, Scary Face, Torment, Night Daze, Shadow Claw, The list goes on.

What on EARTH are you talking about!?

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I'm getting flashbacks to the time you had genesect support you had for about a week.

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Who said I'm supporting the Zoroark over Lucario? I know Lucario is bigger priority. And I had Genesect way longer than that.

Am I not allowed to point out when people are simply being stupid and posting Bull Shit? So If I defend Rayman for having a move set should that imply that I support him? No, it's called educating people.

I've already explained perfectly well why Zoroark doesn't fit the criteria - there's no way to effectively implement her into the game

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Dude, Illusion is just a unique ability to Zoroark. This is like saying Jigglypuff can't be implemented because all she does is sing. What mentality is this!? And you are comparing Zoroark to Togepi? Why aren't you comparing Mewtwo to Togepi?

You seem to think it's all Zoroark does as if he is ditto. Zoroark has Shadow Ball, Night Slash, Scary Face, Torment, Night Daze, Shadow Claw, The list goes on.

What on EARTH are you talking about!?

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Not what I'm saying at all.

Jigglypuff doesn't just sing - even though it's what she's known for, she's also been shown to have fighting abilities (mainly with moves like doubleslap). Jiggs is also the 'balloon Pokemon' - a lightweight with the ability to puff up and fly. Basically she has more gimmicks than just singing at her disposal that make her unique - even Kirby doesn't have her mobility (both Smash and canonically).

I already addressed the point about Zoroark's moves - yes, he has them. No, they are not unique save for the fact that they're mostly counters (which wouldn't really work for Smash), and they aren't what make Zoroark's character special. The point of using him in a team - strategically - is to use his ability to trick your opponent into switching out into another pokemon that they think is weak to your illusion, predict the switch and then counterattack. Otherwise he gets KO'd instantly by anything with a halfway decent attack/priority move. Not to mention that his standard moves would probably not be based on any of those - they'd probably solely use his claws.

As for why I made the Togepi comparison, it was to demonstrate that even if a Pokemon is unique in some way and popular (which is at this point debatable in Zoroark's case) that this doesn't necessarily warrant inclusion - especially if their unique abilities aren't adaptable to Smash bros or if they're better suited to a pokeball.

This is also why I made the Ditto comparison - if you aren't familiar with the scrapped content from Melee, Ditto was originally going to appear in a Pokeball and turn into a copy of your character with AI to assist you in the fight but didn't work properly due to processing problems of the Gamecube. Obviously the Wii U is much more powerful, and Zoroark is perfect to implement what Ditto was originally meant to do without being broken or making the screen too cluttered; give it a decent-leveled AI and make it disappear after a certain amount of time or after it takes a certain (low) amount of damage.

In the case of Zoroark, you have to take into account how a transformation/Illusion would work visually (without being a bad move due to the lag from the transformation), how it could function without being confusing, and how it could be implemented into the game without being overly complicated or impossible to code.

How about Zoroarks Illusion move becomes a counter attack, when the player attacks Zoroark, he turns into the player to counterattack with the same move.
Then the rest of the moves could Wolf-like moves.

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I don't know how Zoroark is shown in the movies because I don't watch them, in the games however Zoroarks illusion ability is a gimmick, it wears off the second you get hit, not that advantageous and not really viable in a fighting character scenario. Mewtwo and Lucario make much more sense and since they have both had a turn in the game, it would be nice to have them both in at the same time so this can happen.

Dude, Illusion is just a unique ability to Zoroark. This is like saying Jigglypuff can't be implemented because all she does is sing. What mentality is this!? And you are comparing Zoroark to Togepi? Why aren't you comparing Mewtwo to Togepi?

You seem to think it's all Zoroark does as if he is ditto. Zoroark has Shadow Ball, Night Slash, Scary Face, Torment, Night Daze, Shadow Claw, The list goes on.

What on EARTH are you talking about!?

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I'm getting flashbacks to the time you had genesect support you had for about a week.

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Who said I'm supporting the Zoroark over Lucario? I know Lucario is bigger priority. And I had Genesect way longer than that.

Am I not allowed to point out when people are simply being stupid and posting Bull Shit? So If I defend Rayman for having a move set should that imply that I support him? No, it's called educating people.

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No it wasn't about Zoroark having priority over lucario its just that this reminds me of when you supported Genesect nothing other than that.

Am I not allowed to point out when people are simply being stupid and posting Bull Shit?

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This is perfectly fine - I encourage it, in fact - but if you're going to make an argument it needs to be a reasonable one based on what we know about how Smash Bros. works and how characters are picked.

You haven't really said anything that actually counters my points; all you've said that he's a Dark type and has moves that he could use. But this isn't really what Sakurai does with his characters - he's much more thematic and methodical than that, basing entire movesets around what the character does. For example:

Wii Fit Trainer: All of her moves are based on fitness and the exercises he uses in Wii Fit.

Villager: Based around picking up and using everyday objects. In other words, he draws on Animal Crossing's main element - the simulation.

Megaman: Characterized by his use of projectiles and taking the powers of defeated robot masters - hence why he has no direct contact moves that we know of except for the Super arm and his slide (which he also has in the Megaman games)

Pikachu: Characterized by speed and his use of his tail and electric attacks when fighting.

Mario: Mario basically does it all, and his moveset reflect this by drawing on nearly every major game he's appeared in:

Captain Falcon: he doesn't even have a moveset to draw on since prior to the anime series the guy wasn't ever outside of his racer, but he still had two elements to make use of: fire(representing an engine) and his speed (of course, representing the speed of the F-zero games).

To give a more relevant example, let's look at Lucario.
Lucario can learn:
-Bone Rush
-Dragon Pulse
-Metal Claw
-Feint
- Close Combat
Not to mention the various moves he gets from TMs; yet none of these moves were actually utilized in Brawl. Why? Because Sakurai unified Lucario by his main characteristics: his control over and ability to sense 'Aura' and implement it into his martial arts, as exhibited in the Lucario movie.

The list goes on. While Sakurai does make direct references to characters' abilities, he does so in a way that makes their moveset cohesive rather than throwing together random parts (unless this was the intention a la Game and Watch and Mario). I don't see why Zoroark would be an exception to the rule.

What has Zoroark done since XY reveal. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Lucario got a new Mega-Evo, was shown off in a few trailers, Mewtwo got 2 Mega Evos and a movie, so why would Zoroark be high priority?

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It's highly likely that Zoroark will have a Mega-form in X and Y, that should give you an excuse to have Zoroark.

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SOMETHING HAS A CHANCE OF HAPPENING OMG!
At least Lucario has been shown in trailers, and was one of the first Mega Evos revealed.

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I understand this Lucario vs. Zoroark but really the only character that seems Mega Evos will actually help is Mewtwo, as he has TWO of them and was shown off aproximately 3 months ahead of all the others (also Lucario, was shown off with Absol, Ampharos, Mawile and Blaziken so I don't know if that is really anything special).

View attachment 68617
I'm not sure if this has already been confirmed as part of villager's moveset, this was an attack we've overlooked, or this is from Peach's vegetable attack.

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And how the picture was subsequently removed?
So, a picture about turnips gets removed days away from Peach's reveal, a character that uses turnips, coincidence?
And speaking of Peach's moves, I predict Perry is her Up+B attack.

Unlike Wii Fit Trainer, AC has multiple popular characters such as Tom Nook and Mr. Resetti (In which both are possible to be in Smash).

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The problem with that is, a newcomer franchise almost never gets a second rep in their first game appearance.

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Well in Melee, Fire Emblem got 2 characters.

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Fire Emblem at that time was massively popular in Japan, even beating out Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest in popularity, it's definitely not comparable to AC. In Melee, there was Marth, and an intentional expendable clone, it's unlikely for there to be 2 or more unique AC reps.
And Lolwut @Zero2570, Roy was chosen for his fire sword, not red hair.

That doesn't make any sense! If I recall Ike's games were bigger and Awakening isn't big enough to break the rules and have 2 characters from the same installment, that's unnecessary, excessive, and would never happen, we all know that. Awakening is not big enough to replace the second most popular Fire Emblem Character or even have 2 characters. If there was only room for 2 characters, I bet you it'd still be Ike.Awakening is not that big of a game and even if it was that still wouldn't be a reason. Ike isn't leaving.

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For what it's worth, Awakening is the best-selling Fire Emblem game ever - and that's not just outside of Japan (since, obviously, many earlier entries didn't go worldwide). Awakening may not deserve two characters but it definitely deserves one. Not only is Awakening the best-selling Fire Emblem game of all time, it was also set to be the last if it didn't sell well enough; so in essence it also saved the Fire Emblem series. I ain't saying Ike should get replaced for Chrom, but if there was a tough decision to be made, I see no reason why an Awakening character shouldn't get priority.

Two Awakening characters is batshit crazy though, I'll give you that.

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Well, when Sakurai finalized the roster, it may have been too early for when Awakening saved the series in the sales charts, so it's possible FE character selection isn't based around that.

Exactly. I couldn't find the right words to explain but that would suffice.

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Yeah, what Micaiah offers, i.e. an elemental projectile(that's basically what "magic" could offer for Smash Bros.), can already be handled with Ike, since he has fire and could have projectiles. Micaiah wouldn't offer anything new or unique, the said "uniqueness" is an illusion given by the Smash community for every potential swordless character.

Chrom has an axe, which can offer nothing new from Ike except being, again, not a sword. So basically apart from aesthetics there's not much new and unique features Micaiah and Chrom bring into that Ike doesn't/couldn't have. Sadly, mostly everyone judges a character's potential by what his/her weapon is rather than what it could do, which is not sufficient for Smash Bros., execution is what really matters.

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Still though, the multitude of weapon choices in Fire Emblem is an actual feature for the series.

We should rep it by getting other weapons in there. Like on my latest roster I gave magic and axes as Specials to Chrom while giving a bow and lances to Lucina as her Specials.

Maybe even an item or two could work.

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Except that Fire Emblem is an SRPG and Smash Bros. is a fighting/party game, for an SRPG there's a good enough difference between an axe, sword, and a magic tome in Fire Emblem. In Smash Bros., the difference isn't enough to justify cutting a unique veteran that already has the basic properties of those 3 weapons. Why have an axe and magic user when Ike already covers those bases already? The frickin icon of FE in Smash Bros. is a sword, and that is the series we're talking about, it's not Fire Emblem, so there's no need to have all weapons in the game except for aesthetically looking diverse(which is not a good enough reason, especially for an action-oriented game like SSB).

And it seems you're talking about what you feel should happen rather than what you feel would happen, so I take it this isn't a realistic prediction roster? If so, there's no reason for me to continue this argument.