A question for those stat experts here, who can certainly answer a query like this.

What is the longest draught that a top tier team has entered and then eventually recovered from and gone on to win again (a championship)?

McLaren has now gone 5 years without a win and this looks to be extended for the foreseeable future. It is highly likely (to me) that they could easily go another 2-3 years before they win another race.

I'm left wondering how long a former winning team has gone without a win and not faded away into oblivion. I've watched a lot of teams who were former winners lose their mojo and then ultimately disappear. Brabham, Lotus, Tyrell, and going back into history, BRM and Matra. Williams has lost the ability to win and somehow still hangs on, for how much longer, who knows?

I struggle to think of teams that have drifted off into oblivion and then recovered. I'm not counting teams who have left F1 and returned and come back winning like Mercedes.

You know, I thought about that while writing up my post and I wanted to exclude Ferrari, simply because they have so much heritage and tradition that it's nearly impossible for them to disappear. Sorry to have forgotten to add that to my OP.

You know, I thought about that while writing up my post and I wanted to exclude Ferrari, simply because they have so much heritage and tradition that it's nearly impossible for them to disappear. Sorry to have forgotten to add that to my OP.

And McLaren don't?. I'd say they're not that far behind Ferrari in that regard at all. Over 50 years in F1 now.

If they lose their top line driver, lose works status and go another 5yrs then they'll slip like Williams did I think. It took a good 10 years(But only 3 or 4 after losing works status) for Williams to stop being thought of as a top team after their last championship (1997 to Late 2000's imo).

McLaren have a larger fanbase,had more success and have stronger heritage than them so I can't see how it will happen any quicker.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

You know, I thought about that while writing up my post and I wanted to exclude Ferrari, simply because they have so much heritage and tradition that it's nearly impossible for them to disappear. Sorry to have forgotten to add that to my OP.

And McLaren don't?. I'd say they're not that far behind Ferrari in that regard at all. Over 50 years in F1 now.

I used to think that about McLaren but dont anymore. They have fallen off the rails so bad it seems almost impossible to think that they can win again.

While McLaren may have 50 years in F1, they are a radically different team than what was originally started by Bruce McLaren. They won early, shortly after his death, but then quickly became a second rate team, only being saved by Ron Dennis in the early 80's. Ron's McLaren was massively, massively different from the McLaren of the early to mid '70s. Only the name remained the same. Now with Ron gone, McLaren is spiraling out of control, getting worse and worse with each year.

They have already reached Williams level of hopelessness and are continuing to dig an even deeper hole.

Alonso would be a fool to stay with McLaren. Any other quality driver would be a fool to sign a contract with McLaren. With no drivers, no wins in years, who will sponsor McLaren? Sears? That would be a good fit.

You know, I thought about that while writing up my post and I wanted to exclude Ferrari, simply because they have so much heritage and tradition that it's nearly impossible for them to disappear. Sorry to have forgotten to add that to my OP.

And McLaren don't?. I'd say they're not that far behind Ferrari in that regard at all. Over 50 years in F1 now.

I used to think that about McLaren but dont anymore. They have fallen off the rails so bad it seems almost impossible to think that they can win again.

While McLaren may have 50 years in F1, they are a radically different team than what was originally started by Bruce McLaren. They won early, shortly after his death, but then quickly became a second rate team, only being saved by Ron Dennis in the early 80's. Ron's McLaren was massively, massively different from the McLaren of the early to mid '70s. Only the name remained the same. Now with Ron gone, McLaren is spiraling out of control, getting worse and worse with each year.

They have already reached Williams level of hopelessness and are continuing to dig an even deeper hole.

Alonso would be a fool to stay with McLaren. Any other quality driver would be a fool to sign a contract with McLaren. With no drivers, no wins in years, who will sponsor McLaren? Sears? That would be a good fit.

I don't think it's as bad as all that. They have a good technical department, rich owners, a 10 year works deal, a new boss who understands marketing and has already played a blinder. There's more good than bad it's just the bad is the most important in terms of current competitiveness.

The engine is the main issue why they are where they are and yeah Honda have gone massively wrong in it's approach to the engine but they are making strides to correct that by all accounts with the rumoured help from Mercedes. It's taken far too long to get to that point of course so no excuses there.

For all the drama, Alonso still believes they will be much better after the summer break. I'm not sure he'd be saying that if it was terminal. The first step seems to be coming in Canada.

The pre chamber tech caught everyone napping and Honda were too slow to react because they were trying to fix other issues, namely the ERS in 2015 and over the winter into 2016. Trying to go it alone with their version of TJI like no-one else did and testing multiple different solutions instead of copying the one we knew worked great is what cost them this PU that started this year.

They seem to get that now, maybe it's too late to keep Alonso, I personally don't think it is but I get why people would because it's hard to have any faith in the project because it's been such a failure up until now. We'll see what the situation is after the summer.

While I think it's important to keep a star driver for obvious reasons, even if they lose Alonso they won't fade into oblivion. They've survived barren runs in every decade seemingly and they'll survive this one.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

You know, I thought about that while writing up my post and I wanted to exclude Ferrari, simply because they have so much heritage and tradition that it's nearly impossible for them to disappear. Sorry to have forgotten to add that to my OP.

And McLaren don't?. I'd say they're not that far behind Ferrari in that regard at all. Over 50 years in F1 now.

I used to think that about McLaren but dont anymore. They have fallen off the rails so bad it seems almost impossible to think that they can win again.

While McLaren may have 50 years in F1, they are a radically different team than what was originally started by Bruce McLaren. They won early, shortly after his death, but then quickly became a second rate team, only being saved by Ron Dennis in the early 80's. Ron's McLaren was massively, massively different from the McLaren of the early to mid '70s. Only the name remained the same. Now with Ron gone, McLaren is spiraling out of control, getting worse and worse with each year.

They have already reached Williams level of hopelessness and are continuing to dig an even deeper hole.

Alonso would be a fool to stay with McLaren. Any other quality driver would be a fool to sign a contract with McLaren. With no drivers, no wins in years, who will sponsor McLaren? Sears? That would be a good fit.

I don't think it's as bad as all that. They have a good technical department, rich owners, a 10 year works deal, a new boss who understands marketing and has already played a blinder. There's more good than bad it's just the bad is the most important in terms of current competitiveness.

The engine is the main issue why they are where they are and yeah Honda have gone massively wrong in it's approach to the engine but they are making strides to correct that by all accounts with the rumoured help from Mercedes. It's taken far too long to get to that point of course so no excuses there.

For all the drama, Alonso still believes they will be much better after the summer break. I'm not sure he'd be saying that if it was terminal. The first step seems to be coming in Canada.

The pre chamber tech caught everyone napping and Honda were too slow to react because they were trying to fix other issues, namely the ERS in 2015 and over the winter into 2016. Trying to go it alone with their version of TJI like no-one else did and testing multiple different solutions instead of copying the one we knew worked great is what cost them this PU that started this year.

They seem to get that now, maybe it's too late to keep Alonso, I personally don't think it is but I get why people would because it's hard to have any faith in the project because it's been such a failure up until now. We'll see what the situation is after the summer.

While I think it's important to keep a star driver for obvious reasons, even if they lose Alonso they won't fade into oblivion. They've survived barren runs in every decade seemingly and they'll survive this one.

Totally agree. I dont think they will just slip quietly into the night. Honda will have to get it right eventually.

Totally agree. I dont think they will just slip quietly into the night. Honda will have to get it right eventually.

People said that about Toyota too...

Toyota didn't have a bunch of F1 championship trophies collecting dust on the mantle...

Past success does not guarantee future success.

Of course not, hence the premise of this thread. I just think it's worth noting that the belief that Toyota would reach the top was based purely on their ability to spend money while the belief in Honda stems partially from their pedigree and track record. Of course that track record was built in a completely different era and with totally different people...

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

There is little to stop Honda calling it a day and contracting another engine builder* to do the job on contract and still badge it Honda.

* It would need far more than a n engine builder, probably some sort of consortium to make the wide spread of tec needed.

Cosworth-Magneti-McLaren-Honda.ICE, MGU's, battery, funding source.

If FIA do go the external engine route, it would be better to have a separate supply of all the parts. If taken far enough it could even see a return to the "Garageste" days when everyone found a DFV and someone to tune it, someone do the gearbox, and enter it as your own name

I used to think that about McLaren but dont anymore. They have fallen off the rails so bad it seems almost impossible to think that they can win again.

While McLaren may have 50 years in F1, they are a radically different team than what was originally started by Bruce McLaren. They won early, shortly after his death, but then quickly became a second rate team, only being saved by Ron Dennis in the early 80's. Ron's McLaren was massively, massively different from the McLaren of the early to mid '70s. Only the name remained the same. Now with Ron gone, McLaren is spiraling out of control, getting worse and worse with each year.

They have already reached Williams level of hopelessness and are continuing to dig an even deeper hole.

Alonso would be a fool to stay with McLaren. Any other quality driver would be a fool to sign a contract with McLaren. With no drivers, no wins in years, who will sponsor McLaren? Sears? That would be a good fit.

Is this thread about win draughts, or is it just a(nother) chance for you to bash McLaren? I realize it seems to be your primary occupation recently, but don't you already have enough threads to do that in without creating another?

I used to think that about McLaren but dont anymore. They have fallen off the rails so bad it seems almost impossible to think that they can win again.

While McLaren may have 50 years in F1, they are a radically different team than what was originally started by Bruce McLaren. They won early, shortly after his death, but then quickly became a second rate team, only being saved by Ron Dennis in the early 80's. Ron's McLaren was massively, massively different from the McLaren of the early to mid '70s. Only the name remained the same. Now with Ron gone, McLaren is spiraling out of control, getting worse and worse with each year.

They have already reached Williams level of hopelessness and are continuing to dig an even deeper hole.

Alonso would be a fool to stay with McLaren. Any other quality driver would be a fool to sign a contract with McLaren. With no drivers, no wins in years, who will sponsor McLaren? Sears? That would be a good fit.

You know, I thought about that while writing up my post and I wanted to exclude Ferrari, simply because they have so much heritage and tradition that it's nearly impossible for them to disappear. Sorry to have forgotten to add that to my OP.

And McLaren don't?. I'd say they're not that far behind Ferrari in that regard at all. Over 50 years in F1 now.

I used to think that about McLaren but dont anymore. They have fallen off the rails so bad it seems almost impossible to think that they can win again.

While McLaren may have 50 years in F1, they are a radically different team than what was originally started by Bruce McLaren. They won early, shortly after his death, but then quickly became a second rate team, only being saved by Ron Dennis in the early 80's. Ron's McLaren was massively, massively different from the McLaren of the early to mid '70s. Only the name remained the same. Now with Ron gone, McLaren is spiraling out of control, getting worse and worse with each year.

They have already reached Williams level of hopelessness and are continuing to dig an even deeper hole.

Alonso would be a fool to stay with McLaren. Any other quality driver would be a fool to sign a contract with McLaren. With no drivers, no wins in years, who will sponsor McLaren? Sears? That would be a good fit.

Things look very bleak for McLaren right now. I'm not optimistic, but for those who think they will never be anything if they don't retain Alonso, I never thought Alonso was a long term answer. He's getting old. Maybe he hasn't lost anything but he soon will. Some of the last Hamilton years, and the year with the rear wing stall were definitely missed opportunities as they were close. Lately they are light years off winning.

Ferrari has been so close so many times lately they have to capitalize this year. They weren't close last year, so there is no guarantee they will be close next year.

Its weird to see all of the big three going through an extended down period at the same time...in the past it was usually one or two down and one or two up.

1973, not 1971. Tenuous but good luck finding a longer gap between titles.

Mercedes 1955-2014

I almost posted this, but since they didn't compete between 1956 and 2009 it's really only a 4 year gap. Technically I suppose it will probably remain the longest until Alfa returns to the sport and wins, but I think by any reasonable measure it can't be considered.