Are we able to wrap our mind around infinity?

Infinity. It’s a puzzling concept. Is it real, or a mathematical fiction?
Aristotle believed infinity could only be potential, never actual. To speak of an actual infinity, he argued, is to fall into logical contradiction: “The infinite turns out to be the contrary of what it is said to be,” Aristotle wrote in the Physics. “It is not what has nothing outside it that is infinite, but what always has something outside it.”

Closing Statement from Mohammad Mohammadipour

Dear All
Thanks for your comments;
And, last but not the least:
Arisen to voiceless unattainable peaks
I meet no end, for all is boundless He,
An absolute Joy the wide-winged spirit seeks,
A Might, a Presence, an Eternity.

In the inconscient dreadful dumb Abyss
Are heard the heart-beats of the Infinite.
The insensible midnight veils His trance of bliss,
A fathomless sealed astonishment of Light.

In His ray that dazzles our vision everywhere,
Our half-closed eyes seek fragments of the One:
Only the eyes of Immortality dare
To look unblinded on that living Sun.

Yet are our souls the Immortal's selves within,
Comrades and powers and children of the Unseen.

"...is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?"

Infinity is a symbol and relevant to the mindset you bring to it .
There are philosophical/mathematical/theological/quantum mechanical /poetical... and God knows how many 'ungraspabilities' of infinity. :)Sometimes description from one domain contradicts to another. Like here in your question ; 'sets of infinity ' ; it sounds nonsense for philosophical ear for these words being put together cancel each other out in a philosophical context.
I guess, that made Voltaire so angry :)

If you chose to explore the mathematical infinity I'd recommend you to get acquainted with Mandelbrot set, if you are not familiar with it already.The simplest algorithm for generating a representation of the Mandelbrot set is known as the "escape time" algorithm. I am not an expert, but I hope it will help you to ask 'the right' question :)
As for Krisztián comment, you asked me to ponder, for me it falls into the category : sounds cleaver, but what does it mean ? :) Sorry, not my cup of tea.
I like Daniel's "The line going outward towards the left ... comes back upon itself from the right...'
It's great !
I can't answer your question, because for me it is a 'wrong' question ( just for me !) It suggests separation/division, but there is no division between 'inside universe' and infinity. Any division between 'in here' and 'out there' is an illusion of your mind.To comprehend infinity means to be infinity, in a sense it means to seize to be conscious of your separate self. Mystics call this state of consciousness: 'be at the moment' . They say it is open to everyone. Welcome ! :)

May 19 2012:
HI, Dear Natasha,
To scrutinize, I would like to write the first question again:
"Mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?"
So, what is the problem with this question?
Regards

May 19 2012:
Mohammad !
I don't speak mathematical language. maybe there is an equation, which holds the answer to your question, I have no clue! :)
Watch this videohttp://topdocumentaryfilms.com/fractals-colors-infinity/
In my language : everything everywhere is doing the same thing ...infinitely.

May 19 2012:
Mohammad
It depends on perspective....
If you decided already to have an YES answer from all that's why you opened up the premise (in your defintion "question" ) ....it's not the place where you will get all "YES SIR" answer.
Logically , philosophically many here answered "NO"
Mathematically you got both "YES" and "NO"So you decide .....you are free to decide..... but repeating same thing again and again with out your own explantation or proof doesn't make your point an "infinite truth" (which is absurd).
It's sounds just like preaching
Kind regards

May 19 2012:
Salim
In a fair weather day, we may talk about the differences between a premise, a question and a hypothesis.
My last question about Infinity was a simple clear cut question.
And it needs a true answer; in fact we come up with the answer.
To be honest with you, I have asked this question to shed light on your question.
I hope it helps
Maybe the concept of infinity is not in your area of interest.
You may find some more interesting subjects.
Good luck

May 19 2012:
Mohammad !
"why do you think the so called question is wrong?
may be there is no problem with the question but it is not in your area of expertise."

I emphasised : for me.....(just for me ).
Salim is right ,It depends on perspective....and sure, Math is not my domain.
You may put it in a less benign way :
I am wrong for the right question ,
I don't mind :)
Cheers

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May 22 2012:
hi natasha,,just wanted to correct something,,,when i say time moves backwards,,,all that mean is it moves backwards in space,,,our perception of time is as it should be...we look forward to tommorow,,we look back at yesterday...the only reason time oppoese space is if they both moved in the same direction,,,time in any part of space,would be constant and unchanging,,,time moves backwards to condense like gravity,,,by the way just saw your link on infinity,,will have a look now,,,my blog is dancingzerosofeternity...

May 22 2012:
,when i say time moves backwards,,,all that mean is it moves backwards in space,,,
I meant the same. It's very difficult to avoid misunderstanding here.
I erroneously used 'we' , I guess, it caused confusion :)

May 18 2012:
Mohammad, I hereby honor your request for my reply to Krisztian's contributions herein. Having devoted as much time as seems prudent I have decided to let an honorable Frenchman from the past named Voltaire speak in my place. I think he would answer your question in the negative. Here it is:QUOTE:
"The only way to comprehend what mathematicians mean by Infinity is to contemplate the extent of human stupidity.”

May 17 2012:
"mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?"

it is a more accessible question, but not easy. in math, there are objects of infinite size. for example sets. there are sets that has infinite number of elements.

it turns out that yes, it is possible for a set to be infinite, and be a subset of another set. for example the set of even numbers is a subset of the set of whole numbers, yet they are both infinite. another interesting thing is that although one set is strictly a subset of the other, they are actually have the *same* size.

it is also possible for an infinite set to be confined. for example the set of real numbers in the range 0..1 is an infinite set in a small space.

but it is also possible that an infinite set is smaller than another infinite set. the set of whole numbers is smaller than the set of real numbers. this is not straightforward, but Cantor proved it, to everyone's surprise. since then, we know that there is a hierarchy among infinites, and this hierarchy has ... well ... infinite levels. for those who want to know more, i recommend to read about "cardinal numbers". kind of mind boggling. who said math is boring?

May 17 2012:
Dear Krisztian
Yes…thank you for your comment
So is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
Regards

"You can have sets of elements that are Dedekind-infinite, which is when the set has a seemingly paradoxical quality, or has a subset of its elements
that are able to be matched up on a ONE-TO=ONE basis to each individual element within the set." ( the emphasis is mine )

And to simplify ...

"This paradoxical nature of infinity can be illustrated with a hotel with infinitely many rooms, where each is occupied by a guest but can still manage to accommodate a new visitor by moving each guest over one by one to the next available room."

May 21 2012:
yeah, something like that. but that term "dedekind-infinite" is for mathematicians only. for the rest of us, enough to call it infinite.

infinity has many weird properties. for example there can be so many guests, they don't fit in your infinitely many room hotel. there are infinites larger than the set of natural numbers.

easy, you say, as the whole numbers (integers) are more. but no, they are the same. even rational numbers, those that can be written as x/y, are as numerous as integers. so we have the set of rationals, which are dense, meaning that there are infinitely many of them in any interval, and yet there is exactly as many rationals as natural numbers. all the rationals fit in your hotel. you can make your rooms have rationals as door numbers, and you will have all.

the set real numbers on the other hand is indeed much bigger. so much bigger that there is more real numbers in any interval, no matter how tiny, than the entire set of rational numbers.

the thing is, if we tax the hotel at zero percent, the amount to pay is mathematically undefined. if we tax them at any higher percent, the amount to pay is also undefined.

my solution is to set a fixed tax, or at least a tax ceiling and a nonzero percent.

the state solution is to enact a law that require hotels to create subdivisions if the number of rooms exceed 100000, and do separate accounting for each subdivision. doing so, the hotel has the burden and the state has the money.

May 17 2012:
Colleen
With my naiveness when I can participate in any discussion that's definitely not a tough one ....that's my measuring scale.
Well being naive can join a heated discussion but not a tough one :)

May 17 2012:
Dear Salim,
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you....there is a first time for everything!!! :>)

I do not agree that you are naive. You offer a LOT of insightful comments, and I LOVE the fact that you often say so much with so few words:>) Your kindness, intelligence, insight and sense of humor are appreciated:>)

I have my mind well wrapped around that idea, and it is infinitely true...in my humble perception:>)

May 18 2012:
Honestly Salim, I sometimes feel naive at times when the conversation moves to science/math perspectives. And I also know that we are all different and have different information to offer:>)

I believe we can maintain joy and delight even when disagreeing. This, to me, is part of the cycle of infinity. While folks are trying to understand infinity by way of numbers, which I respect and am interested in, I use a practical application.

If we look at parts of the definition of infinity, we see...
"Boundlessness; subject to no limitation or external determination; immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive; being greater than any preassigned finite value;characterized by an infinite number of elements or terms".

We can "wrap our mind around infinity" using an "infinite number of elements or terms", and I believe we are living the cycle of infinity HERE...NOW. So, I percieve the possibilities to connect with that theory in every moment of my life.

Disagreements are often bound by limitations, expectations and external determination. When we bring joy and respect to disagreements, it changes the dynamic of the interaction, thereby causing it to be "greater than any preassigned finite value".

When we bring this concept into every aspect of our life experience, we are living in, and exploring the concept of infinity. It is not "out there" somewhere...it is here and now....we are part of it.....we contribute to it in every moment of our lives. I understand that this may be difficult for our math/science left brain dominant friends to grasp:>)

I am a simple person...uncomplicated...and I find joy in considering an "infinite number of elements or terms". In my humble perception, when we are only looking at answers in terms of math, science, or any other limitation, we are missing some of the important elements:>)

May 19 2012:
Colleen
I can't agree more (unable to give you delightment of disagreement , sorry :))
In other post you talked about "exploring" mind....again have to agree..:D
Without any comparison between the persons who said ......I try to use tonics which seems to be very healthy (to me) those are
"Know Thyself".........
"Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish".......

May 17 2012:
Beautifully said. Salim !
Everything that is named/understood automatically starts to lose its infiniteness......
but...
no matter how 'ungraspable' what you are thinking at the moment can be, the very act of thinking creates new connections in your brain and at some point it can make a leap.
But you can't tell what you've got :)

May 17 2012:
I agree Salim and Natasha,
Sometimes, as soon as we (humans) think we "know" something, we sometimes stop exploring, in favor of thinking we "know". Personally, I like the fun of the exploration, and do not need to label or catagorize anything, thereby leaving an open door for an infinite exploration:>) I LOVE learning, and the one thing I think I "know" is that there is always another level of learning:>)

"Eureka" moment " has a lot to do with a 'leap', I guess :)
It is a moment of integration; an act of knowing. Knowing has no voice for it is a kind of non-dual state and you need mind with its capacity to create recognisable patterns to 'convert' a flash of insight into symbols, equations, poetry...anything, that has 'extendedness' in Time.

May 17 2012:
Hi Mohammad
Thanks for your teaching.....
Despite I already have a dull idea of null hypothesis.
However a premise may come as a question as well...
That's my understanding, any concern about that? I am open please prove your QUESTION.
Regards

May 17 2012:
Maths isn't my strong point but mathematically it is possible to to have one infinity within another, the example that immediately springs to mind is the Koch snowflake which is a type of fractal. Here is the wiki link which includes plenty of diagrams and animations to help with visualisation

You can see that the inifinate perimeter of the Koch snowflake can be imagined within an infinite space outside the snowflake. With regards to the original question as well it is certainly the nearest I can come to wrapping my mind around infinity.

May 17 2012:
Hi Terry
i should really appreciate it if you could read Krisztian's discussion and answer the following questions:

is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
Please add your comment on the top of the page.
Regards

May 18 2012:
mathematically there is only one infinity and if something has been ever equlled once to infinity, any other mathematical operation on that, with any numbers other than infinity itself is infinity. like, infinity + 1 is also infinity. and that doesn't mean, infinity is less than infinity + 1. this can be made more clear if you think of infinity as a constant number, if its constant its not infinity. infinity is never ending and with no boundaries.

May 15 2012:
Colleen
i think meaning will find its own shape in the minds' of individuals subconsciously through discussion.
and this is the main resoan that i love discussions in TED.
please write about me as a young handsome man from Iran, maybe a doctor in hospital.
i am kidding..
as far as i am concerned there is a book in farsi in the same area by the name of "Dastanhaye Shegeft"
Regards

May 15 2012:
Mohammad,
I like discussions on TEd for that reason too:>)

OK...you got it..."young handsome man from Iran...doctor"...I'll wrap my mind around that:>)
Be careful what you ask for...you just might get it!
Your profile says your expertise is linguistics, educator/teacher. Are you changing directions to medicine? It's ok....you can do that.....you have infinity to explore many subjects:>)

What does "Dastanhaye Shegeft" mean? I tried to translate it on line, and couldn't.

May 15 2012:
Colleen
thank you Colleen..that is really kind of you..
i am trying to get a PHD in the near future, a doctor but this time in Philosophy.
if you could google the word, you wiil get the PDF format of book.
it means Weird Stories.
Regards

May 14 2012:
hi mohammed, i think the term inifinity is relative. relative to how much our human senses can comprehend. our thoughts and intelligence are limited, infinity refers to a magnitude beyond what our human senses can comprehend. its not enough to wrap arround the whole concept of universe. our intelligence and information is very limited, considering the size of universe, but its evolving. earlier our limit was earth, we thought if we keep traveling straight earth would end some where. as of now we know there are plenty more planets like earth and galaxies like milky way, but still our imagination is limited with that idea. our intelligence has to evolve more to accomodate certain idea.

May 9 2012:
The reason we cannot understand infinity is probably because our brains are finite. The bible tells us that we are eternal, spiritual beings. We exist for eternity, whether that is infinite time, or infinity is the absence of time, I am not sure.
When you think about it, spacial infinity must be real. If not, then what is beyond the boundary ? However the concept is beyond our understanding.
I go with the bible; it encompasses many aspects of existence which are beyond us, but it has changed the life of millions.Personally I am happy with the concept that we are eternal children of an Infinite, eternal god,& one day we will understand just exactly what that means.

May 9 2012:
Hi Mohammad.
A1 I would say that the brain itself is finite. It consists of a finite number of atoms. The number of thoughts it can produce will be much greater; but as the life of the brain is finite, the number of thoughts & signals must also be finite.
A2 I don't think it is possible for a finite brain to grasp infinity properly. Our being however includes a soul which is eternal. I believe this gives us a sense of eternity which often manifests itself in a sense of God. We also get a sense of surprise when people die, as deep down we feel that it is not 'normal'.

May 11 2012:
Hi Mohammad.
My source is the bible. I believe that when my body dies, my spirit will return to the one who created it. When history has run it's course, my spirit will be given an eternal body to inhabit. Life with my creator can then resume throughout eternity. My new body will have similarities to my present one, we will recognise each other etc. , but it will be immortal.
The bible also talks of judgements etc., but that is another; & rather touchy subject.
I guess no-one knows for sure, but that is my sincere belief, given what we know at present.

May 13 2012:
Hi Mohammad.
Billion dollar question. I guess God wants a family. Someone once said this world is like a departure lounge with two doors. We get to chose whether we want to be in God's family or not. His family chooses one door, the others chose the other door.
That's my take; what's yours ?

May 15 2012:
Hi Mohammad.
Yes these are human wants. How else would we understand ? I'm sure God has reasons that we are not capable of understanding. He came as a man; Jesus; to help us understand what he is like, but we have little idea of the totality of God, any more than we understand infinity. He is eternal, omnipresent, & infinitely powerful; a bit beyond our understanding.

May 16 2012:
Hi Mohammad
I wouldn't want to put words in Coleen's mouth, but I can make general comments. I believe the bible to be trustworthy; so when I have feelings & experiences I will check them against what the bible says. Some feelings can be true, & others may not be.
NDE's & OBE's seem to be quite common, & in general I would say they are biblical. We are spiritual beings who inhabit a physical body. It is entirely feasible that at times of trauma the two could be separated. They will be separated by death anyway, so a trial run is possible. I believe that our spiritual part is entirely capable of consciousness & decision making; maybe even more so.
I agree with Ed on the "Lake of Fire" & such however. The bible is very clear on a judgement & a separation of believers & unbelievers. That probably doesn't apply to NDE's & OBE's , but will apply at death.
Hope that helps.

May 8 2012:
The concept of infinity is problematic for humans because our understanding of the universe can only truly be grasped in finite terms, since we live in a finite world. This does not mean it is fiction--just that our "logic" does not reach that far.

May 10 2012:
Salam
I think our thoughts and imaginations has no limit and we understand the concept of infinity.
Also I feel the materialistic part of our universe consists of limited and finite entities, dimensions, durations and forms. "Conceptually" there is no limits to these, however, "physically" they are limited.
Therefore the materialistic part of our universe which consists of matter and energy is limited.
There is a misunderstanding about space and time. These are concepts so they have no limit. Space and time do not exist physically. Dimensions and durations which are attributed to matter do exist and are limited.
Good luck

"... the materialistic part of our universe which consists of matter and energy is limited" ...
by not existing limits.
Spacetime is a by-product of our mind and the creator of the latter.
Vexed ' Chicken-egg' issue.
So... everything is infinite, but we perceive ' matter/energy part of the infinity as finite: our mind traps it in time and makes it 'be' in space as matter/energy.