I am a big fan of the epic operatic scope of this film (and can not understadn why ipeople find it so hard to follow - watch it and concentrate!!) - however I have never been able to justify the explicit rape scenes. The films heroes are the perpetrators and there seems to be an uneasy acceptance of this throughout the film. This has always left a misogynistic feel about the movie i.e. sometimes no means yes. I know that Leone films generally are women free zones but this seems to cross the line.

Am I missing something?Was Leone such a bitter old man by then that it impaired his judgement or is it just another paradox to this movie?

You are missing something. For a film to be mysoginistic in my eyes, it has to condone mysoginy, or have mysoginy throughout with no justification or condemning of it. Leone condemns the act with the driver stopping the car and refusing a tip. I hate how people say any rape scene in a film makes it mysoginist, very narrowminded in my opinion, I can understand why people would be offended by it though, and I agree with Christopher Frayling in that I think the actual on screen raping goes on for slightly too long. It is not a mysoginist film though, in fact I think it is the most feminine of all Leone's films just in the feel and atmosphere of it.

I have to say, OUATIA is clearly misogynistic, possibly as a reflection of the characters' misogyny. Remember there are actually two rape scenes, and Tuesday Weld's character identifies her rapist in that memorable scene...

I love the movie, but its treatment of the female characters has always made me feel uneasy.

I have to say, OUATIA is clearly misogynistic, possibly as a reflection of the characters' misogyny. Remember there are actually two rape scenes, and Tuesday Weld's character identifies her rapist in that memorable scene...

I love the movie, but its treatment of the female characters has always made me feel uneasy.

Tuesday Weld's character was never raped. You've misinterpreted the film there. You've ignored that the film actually condemns the rape too. Having a rape scene in a film does not make it mysoginist.

Both of these scenes come straight out of the source novel, THE HOODS by Harry Grey. For many years Leone wanted to make a movie based on this book and he certainly couldn't elimnate these two very important dramatic bits if he wanted to stay faithful to the source.

The Tuesday Weld character asks to be beaten and violated because rough treatment turns her on. The book makes an important point about how her twisted perversion infects the men around her, who become callous, disrespectful, and downright delusional/crazy under her influence. This is why Noodles double-crosses the gang -- he feels Max has become insane under this masochistic female's evil influence.

Noodles rapes Deborah (her name is Dolores in the novel) in desperation because she has such a complete hold on his imagination that he feels he must "break the enchantment" with a rape and also because he believes that violating her will force her to marry him. This is stated very clearly on page 208. He also admits to himself that this is a "crazy thought" but proceeds anyway, until interrupted by the chauffeur.

Does the cheuffer get out and say "Oh well done Noodles that was very good here's a tip"? NO!!!!!!!! He is disgusted by the act and that is the moral guideline, the rape is condemned it isn't misogynist, read it, watch it, come back if you still think it's mysoginist then eat your own head and shut up

No matter what the message is, your point of view shouldn't change because of it. Just think of any story about a character like Noodles, your point of view is what matters, even if the teller of the story has a different one, it's still stuff that happens and it shouldn't change the way you look at it

Actually I never interpretated that Noodles raped Deborah, what I saw is that he was interupted by the driver and Deborah suceeded to reject him. So it was a rapt tentative but not a rape, as it didn't go till the end. Unless there had been some off screen scene, those two elements: the driver interruption and Deborah rejection let me understand there had been no rape.

I've seen the full version - it was shown at a Leone festival at the British Film Institute a few years ago plus recent DVD release version. Lets get facts straight – Deborah is raped.

Alan Shearer's comments clearly demonstrate the misogynistic elements of the film - female characters depicted as manipulative temptresses who either deserve a good slap or in fact like a good slap. Men led into these acts by said temptresses evil work!!! Bit archetypal characterisation going on I think.

True at the end of the day it is the individual perspective that counts and we do not need to be spoon fed consequences that make us feel justice is done but without a degree of direction by Leone it leaves the film feeling like the work of a bitter old man.

Alan Shearer's comments clearly demonstrate the misogynistic elements of the film - female characters depicted as manipulative temptresses who either deserve a good slap or in fact like a good slap. Men led into these acts by said temptresses evil work!!! Bit archetypal characterisation going on I think.

Are there any female fans of this film out there??!!

Of course there are. Explain in detail and in specific context how anything I've said shows that MORE than one female character in the film is depicted as a manipulative temptress who deserves a good slap. My initial point about THE RAPE, the one and only rape in the film is that it is shown to be an immoral act through the chauffer refusing the tip. In case you didn't know, immoral means how should I put it, bad, nasty, unnacceptable. We aren't meant to be jumping out of our seats cheering at this moment of the film in case you didn't realise.

My problem with the rape scenes was that it was just so hard for me to have any sort of sympathy for a character who does something like that. I know a lot of movies have protagonistst that are bad people, but in this case it just seemed to be a small thing that was just glossed over. Almost like people would just forget that Noodles did it.