Dionysus, the deity connected with wine, abandon and revelry, also had a following of the Bacchae, the female followers of the Dionystic mysteries, aka Maenads and Bacchantes longed to incarnate their god in the earth plane and they stopped at no moral limits to do so.He was the craving within humans that longs to let itself go and give itself over to baser earthly desires. Followers embraced this as the incarnation of Dionysus' power that would finally liberate them from the present earth and the customs of the era that governed moral guidelines and law. They sought a spiritual state of ecstasy through their rituals.In the Greek cultural ethos of moderation in all things, he embodied the absolute extreme in inflaming the passions of human desires. The Bacchae women migrated in frenzied hillside groups, dressed in fawn skins accompanied by screaming, music, dancing, and licentious behaviour. When older animals tried to escape the marauding Bacchae, they were considered "resistant" to the will of Dionysus and were torn apart and eaten alive as part of the frenzied ritual. Human participants were sometimes subjected to the same ecstatic cruelty, as the rule of the cult was "anything goes". It was eventually outlawed by the Greeks and Romans; until then, any creature that dared to resist or flee such perversion was often subjected to sparagmos (tearing apart) and omophagia (consumed raw). Re: "The Bacchantes", written by Euripedes in 410 BC.The cult practised the killing and eating of sacrificial victims from its earliest history. Ancient paganism stipulated that by consuming the flesh and blood of an animal or enemy, they might "capture" the essence or soul-strength of the victim. This was also practised by early Norwegians and African Masai warriors, and head hunters of the East Indies. Today, Voodoo practitioners and cult satanists carry on this tradition. The goal of the Bacchae was not a sacramental union with their god; it was the opposite - they sought to capture the essence of Dionysus and bring him through a portal of incarnated rage within humans. The idea was of possession, not communion. Hebrews of that era believed that demonic possession actually occurred during the mystery rituals. They considered Hades to be the equivalent of Satan, and saw no difference between Dionysus and the devil. Euripedes echoed this belief in the "Hecuba"; one of the god's names was Dionysus Morychos "the dark one", a rough equivalent of Satan who wore goatskins and dwelt in the underworld.While most details of their rituals and beliefs are no longer available (mystery god, initiates, et al), the biblical prophet Ezekiel describes the kestatot (magic bands) of the Bacchae which, along with omophagia, were used to imprison the souls of people by magic.

"Therefore, thus says the LORD God, 'Behold I am against your magic bands (kestatot) by which you hunt lives (souls) there as birds, and I will tear them off your arms; and I will let them go, even as lives (souls) whom you hunt as birds" NAS, Ezekiel 13:20

Acts 17 in the new testament gives an account of a man liberated from the control of Dionysus: Howbeit certain men clave unto Paul, and believed: among the which was Dionysus the Areapagite." KJV Acts 17:34. To carry the name of Dionysus meant that, 1) the parents were devotees of Dionysus and their child was predestined to become a follower, or 2) the person was under the spell of the kestatot. The kestatot was a magic arm band used in connection with an orca, or container, called a kiste. Wherever a kiste is inscribed on sarcophagi or on Bacchic scenes, it is depicted as a sacred vessel or soul-prison with a snake peering through an open lid.Pan, later relegated to devildom, is sometimes pictured kicking the lid open and letting the snakes or souls out. Such loose snakes were depicted as enslaved around the limbs and bound in the hair of the Bacchae women.Such images of Pan, the serpents, the imprisoned souls, and the magic Kestatot and Kiste, have never been adequately explained by authorities and the interpretation is under scrutiny. Yet, since the prophet Ezekiel described the methods of the Bacchae to imprison the souls of people mystically through the magic bands of Dionysus, and since Pan was the most beloved of Dionysus because of his "pandemonium" (all the devils), which struck panic and fear into the hearts of humans and animals, and since the Hebrew symbol of the occult is the serpent, it can be summarised that the Bacchae used symbolic magic (of orcas and keste), to incarnate Dionysus himself into a human body through an interdimensional gateway, or opening.

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So the topic up for discussion is this: if the pagan ethos or wiccan creed or the pledge or the goddess, et al, states that blood sacrifice within modern pagan practice is undesirable and not practised; if modern pagans claim to worship Dionysus/Pan/Bacchus/Cernunnos/etc; if the pagan faith is indeed an ancient tradition/s being revived today.......where does blood sacrifice figure in the modern outworking of pagan faith today, and how does one explain the worship of gods that desired or inspired such worship?

(Yes I know about old testament sacrifices and the battles fought in the bible, and yes I know exactly what the importance of blood and sacrifice mean to my faith today, my tradition is founded on a blood sacrifice of the highest order, and yes I know that wiccans are not satanists and don't kill people or animals, and I've heard the PR before so it's no use use saying it over and over........)

Nice post, Nimrod. I'd say that the whole idea of Human Sacrifice, going back through millennia, does hold more than just a grain of relevance, although it is more often than not, misinterpreted with dire consequences. The first (religious) Human blood sacrifices probably occurred when Man began to use agriculture. There's good evidence (see Frazier's "Golden Bough") that these early societies were largely Matriarchal. The arable land was seen as the womb of the Goddess, and the ploughing of this land, an act of rape, or violation, unless the proper forms were observed. Therefore, should the crop fail for any particular reason, then the "King" (In this context, a King describes the Male consort of the Matriarch, or Queen) would take on his ancient sacrificial role in order to placate the Goddess of the Corn. He would be taken in full honour, to the fields where he would be ritually slain and dismembered. His blood (being the finest the Tribe had to offer) was said to "Feed the grass", and his dismembered body was distributed among the Tribe,, as testament to the sacrifice.

On this scale, the slaughter of a single specimen (or scapegoat) to appease the Corn Goddess is culturally viable, and anthropologically documented, but what happens when the land, depleted of it's fertility by years of cultivation, consistently fails to produce it's bounty? Even if the practice of leaving land fallow for a year is in place, it still isn't time for the land to regenerate fully from growing the same crop over and over. How many sacrificed men does it take to restore fecundity to a barren soil? (Bearing in mind that one of the most effective fertilisers is Blood and Bone-meal)

The inevitable barren state of land used like this, (according to Frazier) was the precursor to the end of Matriarchal Societies. The blood toll for keeping those fields fertile, was no longer sustainable, and the advent of newer technologies superceded what had become a yearly bloodfest, perpetuated upon the male population.

So the later more successful agricultural societies (ie: Mesopotamian, and especially Egyptian) kept the feminine principle behind agricultural propagation, but reigned in behind the ever prevalent principle of the Sacrificial, and resurrected Sun King. (A symbolic death, observed every year on the Summer Solstice) It probably helps that both the Mesopotamian and Egyptian farmlands were replenished by the great rivers that flooded every year, and thus, not dependent upon human blood sacrifice.

The principle behind Human Sacrifice though, even today, is still a valid one, although it's true meaning is hidden in allegory, and everything depends on who offers the sacrifice, and who it is whose life is sacrificed.

Also today, there is still much mysterious work going on regarding Human Blood. Genome mapping, DNA profiling, and Virus resistance. And the passing of one person's life force to another using a ritual entirely dependent upon fresh Human blood has been common practice for decades now. (Transfusion) Most transfusion blood today has been harvested with donor consent, but that could all change drastically, without detracting from the efficacy of the ritual. The Gods of "scientific research" and their attendant Priesthoods can be just as thirsty for Human blood as any old Corn Goddess.

I don't see how using your own blood or say menstrual blood would be harming yourself if it were used/needed for a spell. Killing someone or yourself, I am fairly sure that would qualify. As far as cutting yourself to get it, and it's purpose, if for the greater good, I would do it without hesitation. I guess I am a bad Wiccan.

It's more up to interpretation than that. If you don't truly feel cutting yourself to be harmful (which it may not be), then doing so for some greater good would probably not be in conflict with the Rede.

That's why I said that it could be considered harmful if you have to cut someone...

If the Christian traditions are still to be followed; if the words of the bible hold eternal truths and laws which would see you condemned to hellfire for disobeying, then does your virgin daughter need to marry her rapist - and are you permitted to put your wife to death for adultery - or your son for being a homosexual???

Or are you the only ones for whom times are allowed to mitigate petty little details like that?

Oh and as for:

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Yes I know about old testament sacrifices and the battles fought in the bible, and yes I know exactly what the importance of blood and sacrifice mean to my faith today, my tradition is founded on a blood sacrifice of the highest order, and yes I know that wiccans are not satanists and don't kill people or animals, and I've heard the PR before so it's no use use saying it over and over........

You don't get to come here and dictate the terms upon which we might counter your slanderous insinuations about our faiths.

kkthankbi

« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 04:56:15 AM by Scorched Eartha »

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If you're going to be crazy, you have to get paid for it or else you're going to be locked up.

You better take care of me Lord, if you don't you're gonna have me on your hands.

The Edge there's no honest way to explain it as the only people who really know where it is have gone over.

In fact the OT is filled with descriptions of sacrifices made on altars. Animals, humans, fruits and wines.

Also, Nephilim Slayer, I'd like to know in what manner you regard the imprecation about Temples not being made from anything other than unhewn stone? Surely this indicates that all churches built with quarried stones that have been hewn into blocks are an abomination unto the lord?

I tell you what he must have been ticked off about Chartres

and St Pauls then, eh?

They both look pretty well hewn to me.

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Deuteronomy 27.5 And there shalt thou build an altar unto the Lord thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them.

Nep , anything you read in the bible is always going to be anti Pagan and anti Witch. So qouteing that book is like a democrat saying good things about a repubican . How many people over the centuries were murdered in the name of the christian god because he want to rule all . If you don't want to hear what we have to say in responce to what you write then don't write anything.

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"Everything I know I learned by listening and watching . Nowadays people learn out of books instead . Doctors study what man has learned . I pray to understand what man has forgotten ." Vernon Cooper

So the topic up for discussion is this: if the pagan ethos or wiccan creed or the pledge or the goddess, et al, states that blood sacrifice within modern pagan practice is undesirable and not practised; if modern pagans claim to worship Dionysus/Pan/Bacchus/Cernunnos/etc; if the pagan faith is indeed an ancient tradition/s being revived today.......where does blood sacrifice figure in the modern outworking of pagan faith today, and how does one explain the worship of gods that desired or inspired such worship?

Nephilim, there are some things one does not explain. There are things that are not open to those uninitiated. With that said, times have changed and the need for fertility rights for the fields have been replaced with fertilizers.

So the topic up for discussion is this: if the pagan ethos or wiccan creed or the pledge or the goddess, et al, states that blood sacrifice within modern pagan practice is undesirable and not practised; if modern pagans claim to worship Dionysus/Pan/Bacchus/Cernunnos/etc; if the pagan faith is indeed an ancient tradition/s being revived today.......where does blood sacrifice figure in the modern outworking of pagan faith today, and how does one explain the worship of gods that desired or inspired such worship?

Nephilim, there are some things one does not explain. There are things that are not open to those uninitiated. With that said, times have changed and the need for fertility rights for the fields have been replaced with fertilizers.

The best of which, for the yield, the land and the people who consume the crops is still blood and bone and animal dung - which just goes to show that the Old Ways had a great deal of efficacy about them, dunnit?

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If you're going to be crazy, you have to get paid for it or else you're going to be locked up.

You better take care of me Lord, if you don't you're gonna have me on your hands.

The Edge there's no honest way to explain it as the only people who really know where it is have gone over.

Human Sacrifice when conducted properly, doesn't necessarily have to involve the actual spilling of any human blood.. So long as the person conducting the Sacrifice has the pre requisite authority and understands the import of their actions, I see no problem with it.