O_F, you're right that maybe it was Anakin sending himself these visions. But look how much discussion this has created among we mere geeks? For some reason it did not inspire so much thought among the Jedi, or maybe they could have all gotten to the bottom of it.

O_F, you're right that maybe it was Anakin sending himself these visions. But look how much discussion this has created among we mere geeks? For some reason it did not inspire so much thought among the Jedi, or maybe they could have all gotten to the bottom of it.

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I agree, i think. The bottom isn't really that hard to figure out though, Anakin has connections to these people - and his dreams show him what he fears will happen to them. In the case of Shmi, what is happening to her. In the case of Padme, what will happen to her.

Isn't that the bottom of it all? Yoda basically tells him what the lesson here is: to train himself to let go. I really don't see what else could've been done here, Anakin wasn't going to tell Yoda anything other then "someone".

AotC is, imo, a whole other case. And i'm far more sympathetic to that situation. Here he actually felt her in pain and in suffering, and the Jedi all knew about his connection to his mother. Anakin should've learned that he saved Shmi by showing his love to her; by showing his face, he completed her life and saved her from her pain & suffering. That's the ultimate power: love. From the Jedi's side, they should've noticed that Anakin never really let go of his attachments; that it was still a part of him and that he should be given extra revisions on his "attachment class 101" or something

Of course, the Clone Wars basically put a nicely sized hole into any timeslot they could have for each other - so that's another factor that should be noted. But you get my point

Anakin has visions of Padme's death. (A death that will ocurr if he continues down the path of the Dark Side). Anakin goes to Yoda for advice (after Padme told him to get advice from the Jedi). Yoda reminds him that Jedi live in the force, with the force, through the force...and visions are not always true. Yoda's advice about accepting the force and living by Jedi philosophy is not something Anakin is interested in. (Anakin's been breaking Jedi philosophy too long to be bothered by it now). Anakin doesn't hear what he wants. Anakin goes to Palps. Palps seduces him with tales of life-extension. Anakin plows forward on his path to the Dark Side (and the fruition of his vision that Padme will die).
It's Anakin's choices that lead to the Dark Side and Padme's death, not Yoda's advice.
ALSO: In my experience, if you want to keep someone alive it's best to NOT force choke them to the point of unconsciousness. (If Obi Wan wasn't there to SAVE Padme, Anakin would've killed her right there). Just my opinion, but the Jedi do save Padme (from Anakin himself) at that point!
Anakin is not about force acceptance, he is about control. This is a slave boy who now wants to be master. Listen to his speech to Padme (before he tries to kill her) as it is all about His power, His control and His place at the top of the Galaxy. Not Jedi-like at all. Not loving. Not even close!

Yoda gave him very good advice. the problem is is that Anakin was not in a position to understand Yodas wisdom. Had Yoda known what EXACTly was going on with Anakin perhaps it would have been a lot different. He would have gave him different advice. Yodas advice was right on the money. Had Anakin followed it .....as difficult as it may have been, things would have turned out much differently.

Anakin has visions of Padme's death. (A death that will ocurr if he continues down the path of the Dark Side). Anakin goes to Yoda for advice (after Padme told him to get advice from the Jedi). Yoda reminds him that Jedi live in the force, with the force, through the force...and visions are not always true.

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Yoda says nothing of the sort. And he especially does not mention that visions are not always true, only to be careful.

YODA: Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

ANAKIN: I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.

YODA: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

ANAKIN: What must I do, Master Yoda?

YODA: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

v-force said:

Yoda's advice about accepting the force and living by Jedi philosophy is not something Anakin is interested in. (Anakin's been breaking Jedi philosophy too long to be bothered by it now). Anakin doesn't hear what he wants.

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This is not at all true. Remember that HE came to Yoda to begin with. He clearly wants Yoda to help him, but he cannot offer personal advice, nor can he really help Anakin because he doens't know the extent of his problem and doesn't ask. Obviously he IS bothered by Jedi philosophy because he feels bad about killing Dooku and being asked to spy aganist the Chancellor. But no, he does not hear what he wants from Yoda, he is not thinking like a rational Jedi, he is thinking like a desperate husband and father. Would you take Yoda's advice if you had been in Anakin's situation all along? Really think about that. Anakin reacts in a very fallible human way.

v-force said:

It's Anakin's choices that lead to the Dark Side and Padme's death, not Yoda's advice.

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I never said Yoda's advice turned him to the dark side. The problem is far more fundamental than that. His own choices absolutely lead Anakin there, and he is ultimately to blame, but the Jedi had their part too. Like I said before, they both failed each other.

YODA: Failed, I have.

He isn't just talking about the lightsaber fight with Sidious. He is also speaking of Anakin's fall and that of the Republic.

v-force said:

ALSO: In my experience, if you want to keep someone alive it's best to NOT force choke them to the point of unconsciousness. (If Obi Wan wasn't there to SAVE Padme, Anakin would've killed her right there). Just my opinion, but the Jedi do save Padme (from Anakin himself) at that point!

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Clearly Anakin was point the past of all rational thought here. The dark side has finally twisted his mind so he is thinking not of Padme, but of himself. But that does not occur until this point. They way I see it, Force choking Padme was a reaction to Obi-Wan being there and he thinking she brought him there to kill him. If Obi-Wan wasn't there, he might not have done it at all.

v-force said:

Anakin is not about force acceptance, he is about control. This is a slave boy who now wants to be master. Listen to his speech to Padme (before he tries to kill her) as it is all about His power, His control and His place at the top of the Galaxy. Not Jedi-like at all. Not loving. Not even close!

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He is about fear, and control is merely a reaction to that. If he let himself find a way, or was succesfully taught a way, to control his fear by normal Jedi means, he would have never turned. By the time he makes that speech to Padme the dark side has driven him to madness, I don't think anyone is arguing that.

Where should i begin rebel777? You did a wonderful job pointing the blame right back to Anakin. The boy doesn't give people the full truth (not Obi, not Yoda) when it comes to his social life. Instead he relies on himself (His visions, His plan to marry even though it's not allowed by the Jedi, His own goals not others). And as you quoted Yoda says be mindful of the force, accept the force. Screaming, over-reacting and pointing fingers and jumping at people doesn't do anything positive. Not in the movie, not on this board. Anakin continually plows down the road to the Dark Side. He is reminded (by Obi and Yoda throughout the movie, not just in that scene) of his Jedi philosophy. Yet HE knows best. And that is his downfall. Can others help when they know more? Sure, Obi helps Padme when he learns about the truth. He saves her from an early death. (Only for Padme to give up her fight spiritually after the twins' childbirth). Yoda serves up Jedi advice which smacks of ancient Greek and Christian philo-theology, our boy Ani can't handle the truth.
ALSO: If we aren't going to blame Anakin for the force choke, then why even bother debating this? Anakin had a dream, Anakin made the dream come true, literally. If I was on the edge and did all these things to save my wife, and then she pissed me off I wouldn't kill her! That's completely going against everything I worked for. That means I just killed the younglings for nothing! If all he focuses on is HER, then he would never lay a finger on her. That isn't the case. All he focuses on is HIM. That is why she is expendible, the Jedi are expendible, everyone is expendible. He is all that matters, and he proves that rather elegantly. Yet, Yoda Haters, and Ani Lovers cannot see that.

Wow. Awesome thread. I'm with Dagobah_Dweller on this one too.
Honorable Mention goes to Obi_Frans, darth-sinister, and Nihilist for making such strong and direct posts.
And I really can't think of much else to add, other than just remind everyone not to forget how deeply involved Palpatine was in orchestrating the fall of Anakin, the Jedi Order, and the Republic....the fates of all three were very closely intertwined, and it wasn't just mere coincidence. Palpatine knew exactly what he was doing, and there really wasn't much that anyone could do to stop him. He wanted all three to fall, and he got it done very efficiently.

ALSO: If we aren't going to blame Anakin for the force choke, then why even bother debating this? Anakin had a dream, Anakin made the dream come true, literally. If I was on the edge and did all these things to save my wife, and then she pissed me off I wouldn't kill her! That's completely going against everything I worked for. That means I just killed the younglings for nothing! If all he focuses on is HER, then he would never lay a finger on her. That isn't the case. All he focuses on is HIM. That is why she is expendible, the Jedi are expendible, everyone is expendible. He is all that matters, and he proves that rather elegantly. Yet, Yoda Haters, and Ani Lovers cannot see that.

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Ok, you are seriously putting words into my mouth. I never said Anakin wasn't to blame for the Force choke. Of course he is, and there is no excuse whatsoever. I am just speculating as to WHY. And the reason is because he was drunk with dark side power. He let himself get to the point where it wasn't about Padme, it was about him. But it wasn't always that way. I am far from a Yoda hater, that is a gross exaggeration. If you read any of my other 100 posts in this thread you would understand that. I just feel it is a mistake to think that the Jedi are completely without blame, because Yoda and Obi-Wan both admit it.

If anyone wants to speculate why Anakin is drunk with Dark Side power it's because he hasn't been following Jedi advice. Plain and simple. Jedi say don't do it, Anakin does it. Yoda reminds Anakin of Jedi teachings against greed and holding too tightly to material things. Anakins chooses to listen to Palps who's offering (true or false) knowledge about life-extension. You want to know how Anakin came to accept the Dark Side, he makes choices against the Light Side. The Jedi feel terrible about this because they had such great hope for him. They feel that they failed him, but in the end we all make our own choices, as you have said. The Jedi lay out their philo-theology, Anakin must chose whether or not to accept it. He doesn't. And that's fine, he made a great name for himself: Lord Darth Vader, second-in-command to the Supreme Emperor. It's all about the path we choose, as Lucas mentions several times in various interviews.

YODA: Failed, I have.
He really is takling about his fight with Sidious here. He failed to defeat Darth Sidious.
And that failure means that he has also failed to save the Jedi Order, and the Old Republic.

OBI-WAN: I have failed you Anakin... I have failed you.
I really like this line. And actually, the full line was going to be:[blockquote]OBI-WAN: I have failed you, Anakin. I was never able to teach you to think.[/blockquote]But regardless, the meaning is still the same. And the following dialogue helps clarify that:[blockquote]ANAKIN: I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over . . .
OBI-WAN: From the Sith!!! Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil.
ANAKIN: From the Jedi point of view! From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.
OBI-WAN: Well, then you are lost![/blockquote]The point here is that the Jedi do believe in the absolutes of good and evil.
Not every "point of view" is a valid one, and this is what Anakin has failed to understand.
But it's exactly what Palpatine was trying to tell him, to justify evil by making it "his own point of view".
Obi-Wan even admits his failure in this area again to Luke in Return of the Jedi:[blockquote]BEN: When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy.[/blockquote]

Would you take Yoda's advice if you had been in Anakin's situation all along? Really think about that. Anakin reacts in a very fallible human way.

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I'm not even going to pretend that i'm sure i'd thank Yoda and do everything in my power to obey his advice; BUT given the alternatives, especially the ones Anakin has - it simply was the only, good, way out.

Anakins reaction to Yoda's advice is very pure, very honest and very human. But the alternative HE chooses is very corrupt, very false and nearly demonic. He didn't just refuse Yoda's advice, he did everything that went against it. And not to toot my own horn or something, but there's nothing in the world that could drive me so far.

I'm not really being fair here because when Anakin left Yoda; it wasn't as if he's thinking "screw the green bugger, i'll become evil instead" - but the fact that Yoda gave him this advice means he always knew at least ONE alternative, which makes his choice to obey Palpatine that much more dramatic; but also that much more evil, wrong and downright foolish.

vforce said:

The boy doesn't give people the full truth (not Obi, not Yoda)

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Not even Padme.

vforce said:

If all he focuses on is HER, then he would never lay a finger on her. That isn't the case. All he focuses on is HIM. That is why she is expendible, the Jedi are expendible, everyone is expendible. He is all that matters, and he proves that rather elegantly. Yet, Yoda Haters, and Ani Lovers cannot see that.

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RS deserves far more credit then you're giving her, really you're directing this at the wrong person by a 100%.

The point she was making is that Anakin started out doing it because he feared losing her; that's selfish, yes, it's greedy, yes, but it's focus is Padme. What happens when he starts delving into the darkside is that his focus starts slipping, Palpatine flatout says that the more he uses his darkside powers - the more powerful he'll become. And the more power Anakin feels, the more he wants. By the time of the forcechoke - he's so driven on power that his focus isn't on Padme anymore, it's on relishing in his power and seeking ways to enlarge it.

He goes from "You're so beautiful because i'm in love" to "Love won't save you Padme, only my new powers can". That's why his character arc is described as falling to the darkside, he makes a pact with the devil; he tries using the darkside for a means. But he never read between the lines, and at the time of the force-choke the darkside has claimed his soul; "Twisted by the darkside, young Skywalker has become. The boy Obi-Wan trained, consumed by Darth Vader, he is".

"He became so powerful, that the only thing he feared was losing his power"

Anakin, at the time of the force-choke, equates Padme with a prize that he won through power. He wants her because he's earned her by what he's done for her; when he thinks she has brought Obi-Wan to kill him, he thinks she's betrayed him. She's an enemy, a traitor, a threat, to his power - so he tries to kill her. He treats her like an object, "You will not take her from me!", he's no longer scared she'll die. He's scared she'll leave him, he's scared Obi-Wan's going to take her.

And if he can't have her, then noone else can - so what does he do? He attacks both Padme and Obi-Wan.

Of course he's become a bad guy, of course the Jedi had good intentions, of course Yoda had good intentions, of course Anakin should've listened, nobody's saying otherwise. We're simply wondering if Yoda (TheJedi) could've done something differently, we're wondering what the root of Anakins real problems are, we're wondering how Palpatine managed to bamboozle him.

And in between this wondering, there's nothing wrong with admitting that Anakin isn't the only one who messed up. Since the release of RotS i've disagreed with RS on a lot of things; whereas i used to agree on nearly everything before RotS (before the dark times... ) but that's a beautiful thing. It brings perspective.

If you think about it clearly, if Anakin had followed Yodas advice and let go of his fear. Then padme wouldnt have died because Anakin wouldnt have turned (why would he turn). If he had followed Yodas advice Anakin would have been with Mace to arrest Sidious or he would have fought Sidious once Sidious told him who he was. Either way he would have fullfilled his destiny then instead of in ROTJ.

Yoda was indeed wise and as he tells Luke in Empire strikes back, "Always emotion is the future". Anakin failed because he was too emotional, but if he had listend to Yoda and controled his emotions then things really would have been different. It is as Lucas says " It is all about choices" and Anakin makes all the wrong ones.

If you think about it clearly, if Anakin had followed Yodas advice and let go of his fear. Then padme wouldnt have died because Anakin wouldnt have turned (why would he turn). If he had followed Yodas advice Anakin would have been with Mace to arrest Sidious or he would have fought Sidious once Sidious told him who he was. Either way he would have fullfilled his destiny then instead of in ROTJ.

Yoda was indeed wise and as he tells Luke in Empire strikes back, "Always emotion is the future". Anakin failed because he was too emotional, but if he had listend to Yoda and controled his emotions then things really would have been different. It is as Lucas says " It is all about choices" and Anakin makes all the wrong ones.

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That's true, however - if we look at things from a wider perspective we will see it was the Jedi and other factors that made Anakin the man he was. It was these external teachings and treatment he recieved while with them that made him the way he is. And their influence over his character can not be under-estimated. Just as how a child brought up in the ghetto slum of Sau Paulo with a drunk drug dealer for father and a prostitute for a mother would almost certainly have a different outlook and personality if brought up by a MOR family in Kansas. So what I'm saying his childhood before the Jedi training and especially after it was key to the character and personality Anakin became... He made the ultimate decision - but they helped him along the way - or should I say lack of (help from the Jedis that is). And why is there a greater responsible placed on the Jedi like Yoda than people like His master during his days as a slave? Because the Jedi, being knowledgable and wise beings (or so we think) should know better. They should have prepared for what any wise person would have expected to happen. And this movie proves more than any other - how "Wise" a Sith can be.

I think the fault of the Jedi is that they never managed to make him a man. The Jedi, with all their wisdom, should've seen this - especially after the Tusken Slaughter. He never really grows up as a person, but he knows all the mannerisms, all the codes, all the lines to make it seem like he did.

Look at AotC for example: "Sometimes we must let go of our pride, and do what is requested of us"

That's a very mature line, especially for a 19/20-year old - and Padme even comments on it, on how much progress he's made; now look at what he follows it up with.

"Obi-Wan manages not to see it....Don't get me wrong, Obi-Wans a great mentor; as wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu - i am truly thankful to be his apprentice. But in some ways, in lots of ways - i'm really ahead of him. I'm ready for the trials but he thinks i'm too unpredictable, he won't let me move on!...It's worse! He's overly critical, he NEVER listens, he, he doesn't understand - it's not fair!"

What the fuzz?

The same happens in RotS, he spends most of his time defending the Jedi-Way from Palpatine; but when it comes down to it, when the Jedi "stand in his way" he's willing to slaughter them all. He talks the talk but he doesn't walk the walk. Easily the most of their influence on him is what ends up saving his soul; and i'm not talking about Luke. Luke makes Anakin reflect on his life, he doesn't teach him anything new; the only difference is that Anakin has personally lived the life of walking the wrong path at this point - Luke simply offers him to get back on track, a chance to finally live what he'd been preaching for years as a young man.

The Jedi, basically, seem to have given him a path; a road, a manual to becoming a grown-up man that Anakin recognizes, that he knows through and through, but one that he only walks when he wants to; when it's in his favour. He's willing to preach it; but he's unwilling to live it. Obi-Wan recognizes this and even expresses his concern to Yoda/Mace - but they say he must have faith. The irony here is that Obi-Wan finds this faith and trust in Anakin during the Clone Wars, and that Mace loses it completely - and none of them is, essentially, "wrong" in their belief.

But it should also not be underestimated that Anakins basically putting up a facade for all of them, they have no idea what goes on in his mind; what goes on behind the scenes (Padme/Palpatine) and they can't be blamed for this. They have a war to fight, they deal with death, they deal with a suspicious Chancellor - that Anakin chooses this time to hide things from them is his own responsibility, he knew it could end up destroying his life; he said so himself.

But it should also not be underestimated that Anakins basically putting up a facade for all of them, they have no idea what goes on in his mind; what goes on behind the scenes (Padme/Palpatine) and they can't be blamed for this. They have a war to fight, they deal with death, they deal with a suspicious Chancellor - that Anakin chooses this time to hide things from them is his own responsibility, he knew it could end up destroying his life; he said so himself.

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Yes, they have a war to fight. But it is a war they never should have gotten involved in. The Jedi became so outwardly focused than they begain to crumble from the inside. Think about it. The Jedi Institution was strong for a 1000 years, but they were also never at war. Three years in a war that was a completely sham to begin with and their Institution is shattered by an inside job. War did not destroy them, it was one of their own. And Anakin isn't they one, other Jedi turned dark during this time too. There is a fundamental problem here, Anakin just happened to run full speed onto a half frozen lake. "Shatterpoint" has great and ironic points about the Jedi view of war:

The Separatists are not the true enemy of the Jedi. They are enemies of the Republic. It is the Republic which will stand or fall in the battles of the Clone Wars.

Even the reborn Sith are not our enemy. Not really.

Our enemy is power mistaken for justice.

Our enemy is the desperation that justifies atrocity.

The Jedi?s true enemy is the jungle.

Our enemy is the darkness itself; the strangling cloud of fear and despair and anguish that this war brings with it. That is poisoning our galaxy. That is why my dreams of Geonosis are different now.

If I had done as Depa said I should have- if I had won the Clone War with a baradium bomb on Geonosis- I would have lost the real war, The Jedi?s war.

Anakin Skywalker may be the shatterpoint of our war against the jungle.

If he is- if Anakin is the being born to win that war- it does not matter if every other Jedi in the galaxy dies.

As long as Anakin lives, we have hope. No matter how dark it gets, or how lost our cause may seem.

He is our hope for a Jedi future.

May the Force be with us all.

I always found that quote extremely interesting, especially since it's from Mace's point of view. It seems like his character in ROTS is a bit different. However, Stover also wrote the novelization and there's a great moment in the fight between him and Sidious where he's so focused on Sidious' shatterpoint that he doesn't realize that he's about to run smack into Anakin's. He's completely shocked by it. I'd find the exact quote but I can't seem to locate the book. But I think that just goes to show how out of touch the war made everyone. They could no longer look inward. Anakin is the chosen one and he must be protected, but yet no one notices that he's about to snap.

Anakin is the chosen one and he must be protected, but yet no one notices that he's about to snap.

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Exactly, i think the only Jedi that could've helped Anakin was Obi-Wan (maybe Yoda too). But of course, he gets sent to Utapau and misses out on everything. I think that's why the force was telling Anakin he should go with Obi-Wan to Utapau, but that's a whole other subject.

RebelScum77 said:

Yes, they have a war to fight. But it is a war they never should have gotten involved in.

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Should've sensed coming, should've prevented, yes.

Should never have gotten involved in? I don't know.

Their situation with the Senate would only worsen, and Palpatine would have a whole new array of darts to throw at them. They could've focused on themselves, true. They probably could've handled Anakin better, i mean he had just committed a horrible act and i don't think he ever answers to one of the Masters for it now. They could've seen that there are major problems with him and could've acted accordingly on it.

But it's a very dangerous scenery to imagine that they wouldn't get involved, i think it would only make Palpatine a more powerful Chancellor then ever. But since Anakin wouldn't be battlehardened, would learn more/better from the Jedi etc etc they could put up a united front; and Anakin could've fulfulled the prophecy. Would Anakin have ever accepted NOT fighting in the Wars though?

Their situation with the Senate would only worsen, and Palpatine would have a whole new array of darts to throw at them. They could've focused on themselves, true. They probably could've handled Anakin better, i mean he had just committed a horrible act and i don't think he ever answers to one of the Masters for it now. They could've seen that there are major problems with him and could've acted accordingly on it.

But it's a very dangerous scenery to imagine that they wouldn't get involved, i think it would only make Palpatine a more powerful Chancellor then ever. But since Anakin wouldn't be battlehardened, would learn more/better from the Jedi etc etc they could put up a united front; and Anakin could've fulfulled the prophecy. Would Anakin have ever accepted NOT fighting in the Wars though?

Meditate on that, i must.

- O_F

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Well, right. It got to the point where they pretty much had to get involved. It would have been a bad PR not to, and I don't think they could have just sat around while people died. However, the war was not about the Republic v. the Seperatists. It was Sith v. Jedi. That's Palpatine's brilliant strategy, the Jedi are damned either way, fighting or no. Of course it shouldn't have gotten that far to begin with. But it's easy to say that in hindsight and this is really a topic for a different thread.

As for Anakin, no if the rest of the Jedi were fighting he would not have accepted being sequestered away. He won a lot of battles for the Republic, singlehandedly and with Obi-Wan. They might not have gotten as "far" as they did without his help. But of course the toll it took on him is evident. Again, it's a brilliant no-win situation. But in the EU, by the end of the war Anakin voices his weariness of the war to Padme.

Hey, let's be honest about Yoda. Did he ever really trust or even like Anakin? They have a very dysfunctional relationship. Distant, at best.

Yoda saves his life in AoTC, that's for sure. Yoda still does his duty.

But from the Council moment on in The Phantom Menace when Anakin is presented, one feels that Yoda is in way over his head. And Mace? It's only scowls towards that 9-year old little boy.

So what happened between TPM and AoTC? Nothing special towards Anakin.

Thank God for Obi-Wan ,or Anakin would basically be friendless, or so it seems.

I am not being anti-Yoda, but someone of the staure of Qui-Gon Jin is saying that this 9-year old kid is the Chosen One, and has the midi-chlorian proof to back it up, but Mace is ready to show the kid the door?

So the events leading up to Episode 3 are not totally Anakin's fault.

If Anakin had a true relationship with the Council and Yoda, and they had an open mind, he may have opened up a little: Talked about his marriage, talked about his children, talked about the Tusken massacre, and been accepted in as a type of true partner.

This may have changed everything when Palpatine told his lie about saving Padme's life.

Anakin would have told Yoda about Palpatine's lie, and things could have been very different, and Palpatine would have been through, and so would have the Sith; and true balance to the Force would have come 24 years early.

Marriage of the Jedi, and Jedi parenting would probably been allowed [Luke and Leia].

I'm really impressed with where this thread has been and gone. It's hands-down the best discussion I've seen on this board (i'm usually just a reader, but this thread got several posts out of me). The reason I think this thread rocks is the role of questioning. Here in this thread, you had a few "Qui-Gon" posters that brought up some points that went against conventional wisdom, and how we've ALWAYS seen Star Wars ... and look at the results. The flood-gates opened. If Yoda, or even some other Jedi, had brought up some points that went against conventional Jedi wisdom, and how they've ALWAYS seen training, (especially when it came to the Chosen One) maybe, just maybe, they would have blocked Palpatine's plot. In this thread, people are really investigating the reason(s) for Anakin's fall. Most are coming back to Anakin's ultimate blame; many are also seeing that many things could have reversed the tide that led to Anakin's ultimate choice (for which he deserves ultimate blame, let's still be clear). People are even talking about the fact that the Force decided on a Chosen One with attachments before he began Jedi training ... I'll add that ultimately, the Force chose as a catalyst to remind the Chosen One of his destiny a boy named Luke, who had those same emotional attachments to others (see how he mourns when Owen and Beru, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and even Anakin die - he does not "rejoice" at all, yet he is still seen as some sort of model Jedi). We've also got on this thread even people debating the meaning of the word "attachment" - a word with no real negative connotation in reality, yet admittedly, it could be negative for Jedi. Was that ever really imparted (not merely recited) to Anakin? It certainly wasn't "imparted" to the audience; otherwise, we would not be having this conversation. Are attachments for Lucas bad by definition, or if they are controlled a la Luke, and kept as simple emotional attachments rather than morphing into unhealthy obsession and possessiveness, are they okay? We all have opinions and interpretations. So we're debating and asking questions of each other.

Great questions, all. Now, if rather than us, the Jedi had asked these questions of each other and themselves in the movie (other than Qui-Gon), Anakin's fall may have been "blocked." The Jedi lost a chess game; the loss was not inevitable and it was all about adapting their strategy to a constantly moving future and present. In the end, Han gives the best advice of all, "Don't get cocky!" That advice could apply to everyone in the PT and OT - certainly Anakin, but also Yoda, Mace, and the whole voivoid Jedi gang, as well as Palpatine, Tarkin, Greedo, or anyone else whose overconfidence left them vulnerable to disaster.

What I'm saying is, this thread is filled with really intelligent people, no matter what the point is that you're debating, because you are all offering proof and posing intelligent questions, food for thought, and ideas to consider. If the Jedi were wise, and not overreliant on the infallibility of the Code and THEIR WAY OF PASSING IT ON TO LEARNERS (EVEN VERY DIFFERENT LEARNERS SUCH AS THE CHOSEN ONE), they would have spent a lot more time asking questions and engaging in some deconstruction of their own ideas, some critical thought, and examination - like us. And especially Yoda. He knew Anakin's torment, and yet still gave him the same advice he gives to a room full of younglings without those same torments and doubts. Yoda does not ask himself, "Might need this boy more than recitation of the Code? Different enough is his situation to require a change in the way we teach him to embrace the Light Side?" Might those questions have changed things? Maybe, maybe not. But to not even try is either a product of foolishness or laziness caused by overconfidence. And because we KNOW that Yoda is no fool, it leaves us with one option, summed up beautifully by a space pirate several years later: "Don't get cocky!"