Talented F1 drivers not recognised

You know what, wasn't Ralf managed by Michael's manager at that time, Willi Weber? If so, you can be sure Ralf's contract insisted he got the preferential stuff. That's my opinion though. Otherwise was it because Williams were cash strapped? It just doesn't seem typical of Williams to do that. I agree, Alex had loads more talent than Ralf. But I'd love to know what happened at that late December meeting with Alex and Williams. Despite the bad season it seemed Alex was staying at Williams till that meeting, then suddenly it all changed.

BMW happened. They didn't want Zanardi driving one of their cars. All this talk of preference for Ralf at Williams is bullshit, it just doesn't happen there like it does at Ferrari. Frank was utterly delighted at signing Zanardi for 99 and would have been the most disappointed of anyone that he didn't work out. The Williams team tried everything to get Zanardi up to speed inlcuding steel brakes similar to Cart. I reckon the 99 Williams was actually a pretty decent car and had someone like Montoya been driving they would have finished 3rd in the championship.

Frank was utterly delighted at signing Zanardi for 99 and would have been the most disappointed of anyone that he didn't work out. The Williams team tried everything to get Zanardi up to speed inlcuding steel brakes similar to Cart. I reckon the 99 Williams was actually a pretty decent car and had someone like Montoya been driving they would have finished 3rd in the championship.

Looking back on things, Zanardi was the kind of driver who won from the fourth or fifth row of the grid in CART. Being able to pass, hustle, and handle a car on cold tyres during restarts is a big skill in Indycar but not very useful in F1. Ralf did not have those skills (reminds me of another German) but put him near the front of the grid and he drove like one of the best.

Same reason why Unser Jr would've flopped big time in F1. Montoya, who was a qualifying demon and could learn quickly enough to be competitive on ovals right from the start, was a much better fit.

Interesting idea. I wasn't being too serious, 2014 is his first full-time season of anything since 2008 so it would be unrealistic for him to be performing at a Pagenaud standard. But it's odd to see a driver with such a good record in the midfield quite often and not posting good results even when he is running in the top five. But it reminds me a bit of his time in F1, where it always felt like he was on the verge of delivering but nothing came to fruition.

Bourdais did all of last season, and the season before, and did all of the ILMC plus Le Mans (Sebring?) for Peugeot. He hasn't lacked for seat time.

BMW happened. They didn't want Zanardi driving one of their cars. All this talk of preference for Ralf at Williams is bullshit, it just doesn't happen there like it does at Ferrari. Frank was utterly delighted at signing Zanardi for 99 and would have been the most disappointed of anyone that he didn't work out. The Williams team tried everything to get Zanardi up to speed inlcuding steel brakes similar to Cart. I reckon the 99 Williams was actually a pretty decent car and had someone like Montoya been driving they would have finished 3rd in the championship.

To the OT question, Nick Heidfeld.

Not really, the Jordan was a better car, and the Stewart would have been as well if it was reliable. I think HHF against Ralf is a good comparison, both of them had team mates that just did not get on with the grooved tyres.

I don't know the answer, so I will ask the question: Zandvoort excepted, was that really the case? (not literally, obviously)

Their qualification positions in their races together were (Brise first) 7/17, 12/20, 13/20 and 17/21. And Brise finished the first two of those races 7th, with Jones in 13th and 16th. Brise was ahead of Jones in Germany when he retired - and at the British GP was right behind eventual winner Fittipaldi when an early stop dropped him to dead last.

Chris Bristow, Innes Ireland. Vic Elford in particular for his fine effort in a poor car on his debut at the French gp is overlooked. Also if he ever had a proper chance in a decent car , Mike Thackwell would have been awesome.

BMW happened. They didn't want Zanardi driving one of their cars. All this talk of preference for Ralf at Williams is bullshit, it just doesn't happen there like it does at Ferrari. Frank was utterly delighted at signing Zanardi for 99 and would have been the most disappointed of anyone that he didn't work out. The Williams team tried everything to get Zanardi up to speed inlcuding steel brakes similar to Cart. I reckon the 99 Williams was actually a pretty decent car and had someone like Montoya been driving they would have finished 3rd in the championship.

To the OT question, Nick Heidfeld.

1999 Williams wasn't a very good car, compared to even the 1998 Williams. Of the 1990s, the 1999 Williams is by far the worst car they had.

Might sound odd for a three-time GP winner, but Thierry Boutsen. Did a good job at Benetton and then won three Grands Prix in his two years at Williams. Then, when Mansell became available for 1991, Williams decided to get rid of Boutsen and keep Riccardo Patrese, despite the latter being four years older than Boutsen, having achieved only one win during their time as teammates and having been outscored by Boutsen in 1990. Then he went to Ligier and that was that, pretty much.

Always though Christian Klien was pretty quick but couldn't put it all together in the end.

Probably a bit like Alguersuari - got into F1 too soon. With more education in the lower levels they would have been more rounded drivers when they got to the top. Not everyone is a child prodigy.

One that is hugely overlooked is Hermann Lang. In 1939 he had Caracciola and von Brauchitsch in his pocket. His GP swansong in 1954 saw him run 2nd at the Ring before he lost it, plus of course he won Le Mans with the unheralded Fritz Riess, but when it comes to thinking about the greats before the war it's all about Caratsch, Nuvolari and Rosemeyer, with a strong supporting cast of Varzi, Seaman, Chiron &c. Lang tends to get forgotten.

That was a strange setup he and Teo had. The money they brought didn't specify which Fabi had to be in the car, I'm guessing. Corrado beat Boutsen and Bellof to the 1982 F2 championship so he must've been alright. Four years younger than both. Although I'm guessing that racing for the works March team helped.

That was a strange setup he and Teo had. The money they brought didn't specify which Fabi had to be in the car, I'm guessing. Corrado beat Boutsen and Bellof to the 1982 F2 championship so he must've been alright. Four years younger than both. Although I'm guessing that racing for the works March team helped.

Bernie gave Teo the drive but Teo had a sweet deal in CART with Forsythe that took precedence, so Corrado stepped in pro tem. He was more likely to win the title there after all. Pound to a penny Bernie did the deal with Teo after Teo broke the drivers' strike at Kyalami in 1982. A gesture of recognition for betraying his fellow drivers. Certainly based on his F1 record hitherto you wouldn't have picked Teo for the number 2 seat to the world champion; in 1982 Derek Warwick had chewed him up, shat him out and recycled him into agricultural fertiliser at Toleman. OK, he'd done well in CART in 1983, but, criminy, this was the era in which Hector Rebaque won a CART race.

One that is hugely overlooked is Hermann Lang. In 1939 he had Caracciola and von Brauchitsch in his pocket. His GP swansong in 1954 saw him run 2nd at the Ring before he lost it, plus of course he won Le Mans with the unheralded Fritz Riess, but when it comes to thinking about the greats before the war it's all about Caratsch, Nuvolari and Rosemeyer, with a strong supporting cast of Varzi, Seaman, Chiron &c. Lang tends to get forgotten.

Agreed. I have read where he was essentially unbeatable in 1939. Thus being the case, he was particularly short changed by WW2. He was 30 at the outbreak so missed many of his best years to the conflict. Of all the famous top line drivers of the 30s, he arguably had the best post war results with the 1952 Le Mans win, by then he would have been 43 but still competitive. Of course Nuvolari had one final shot at glory in the 1947 Mille Miglia coming just short at second, it was the car that gave out, not the driver, but 2nd doesn't count for as much in motor racing.

Had Jean gone to Williams in 1991-1992-1993? 3 time WDC in those cars?

I often think about "what" Alesi could have accomplished had he gone to Williams in '91. I don't know if you would have been WDC in '91 & '92 because Nige was there, and then Prost in '93, but he certainly would have had a lot more than just 1 GP win. Alesi's time at Tyrrell was so incredibly fun to watch. He certainly looked a future WDC back in '89 & '90, didn't he?

Any one of Red Bull's dropped drivers (Well, maybe bar Scott Speed....) are very good racing drivers. adly, due to the fickle nature of F1, they get labelled as 's**t' and get thrown on the scrapheap, career in tatters.

Sarrazin is one of the most talented and versatile drivers on the planet. His 1 F1 outing was not reprasentative.

I'm so pleased that Pierluigi Martini has featured in this thread. He's so often overlooked, but he definitely had a lot of talent.

I think the problem with Martini was that he had a bit of a Grosjean-esque vibe about him, in that in his earlier F1 appearances he made a lot of mistakes and was considered a bit of a wild loose cannon. Therefore his later achievements were always conditioned by the opinions people had already formed about him.

At least that's my theory looking back on results etc and what I've read because I wasn't around then having been born in '86 lol.

Martini only spoke Italian as far as I know so that would have been a negative. He did not make many mistakes in his career at all, had 2 stints though. First time around he looked useless as the car was bad but shone later on. I don't know much about Corrado Fabi but Teo was super quick. What happened to Johnny Servoz Gavin's eyesight? I know he retired abruptly.

Martini only spoke Italian as far as I know so that would have been a negative. He did not make many mistakes in his career at all, had 2 stints though. First time around he looked useless as the car was bad but shone later on. I don't know much about Corrado Fabi but Teo was super quick. What happened to Johnny Servoz Gavin's eyesight? I know he retired abruptly.

The absolute first time around Martini had a Toleman in which Senna was nearly winning GPs - and failed to qualify. Same weekend, Stefan Johansson finished 4th.

JSG had an off-track accident in which his eye was scratched against a branch, and he never fully regained a racer's sight in it.

I often think about "what" Alesi could have accomplished had he gone to Williams in '91. I don't know if you would have been WDC in '91 & '92 because Nige was there, and then Prost in '93, but he certainly would have had a lot more than just 1 GP win. Alesi's time at Tyrrell was so incredibly fun to watch. He certainly looked a future WDC back in '89 & '90, didn't he?

My understanding was always that Mansell was lured back to Williams after Alesi chose Ferrari, so Jean's teammate would have been Patrese.