The Greek empire collapsed, so did the Roman, the British, the Soviet, The American one is, slowly, the European is cracking, they all die
eventually, its all 'wash, rinse repeat', forgot the short lived Japanese empire, and Genghis Khan, so many empires!

The end game is small government, which is much more suited to Conservative ideals (and, in theory at least, offers much more in terms of liberalism
and personal freedom).

Personally, i would much rather have small government. My issue at the moment is that i don't really trust any of the political class, regardless of
affiliation. Most of the decent politicians have retired now and they were few in number anyway....

Why do government need to be involved in every aspect of society? I see government to fulfill some very important but also very targeted roles. For
example, Health, Policing, Transport, etc. Regarding Health, the point of the Health Service was always to offer medical care to those in need, so
those too poor were not refused medical assistance. It was never meant to be for cosmetic surgery, for example. I don't give a rats arse if Mandy at
no 27. feels depressed due to eating too much - grow a pair and go on a diet, don't expect my tax money to pay for your surgery.......sorry, going
way off on a tangent there but im sure you get my point.

Health is a perfect example though. We spend more year on year and yet we are told that the NHS is in perpetual crisis. How can this be when spending
keeps increasing? This shows there are fundamental problems with the system itself. There are some very easy ways to improve efficiency, the most
obvious and easiest to implement would be to introduce blanket buying rather than allowing individual health trusts to purchase supplies and
equipment. If you go on mass, you get major discount. As one simple example, I know from experience that anti static cleaning mops 15 years ago were
being bought for £4000.00 a pop but individual hospitals / trusts and yet individual private customers could get the same items for £175.00. My
maths isn't up to scratch but im sure you can work out the mark up on that.

It is the same in every department. Introduce proper buying procedures and even with the massive cuts, the departments would still function properly.
It really isn't rocket science.

and farage here telling it like it is too the whole point of the EU is total dictatorial rule but it has a different plan for the UK and its not 1 of
prosperity its wants to destroy the british economy completely and turn us into something like a third world country they are literally getting us
back for ww2 and our politicians damn near all of them are usurpers !!

Private corporations have slowly been taking over responsibilities and institutions from the government. The obvious result of this is that
what once belonged to us all democratically is now in the hands of a few profiteers with no accountability to the electorate.

Same here in the states… everywhere? is that the NWO?

State controlled Capltalism .. is Fascism.

Actually, Mussolini coined a specific term for this kind of Fascism, he called it Corporatism if I remember right. But it's a bit backasswards,
because the handlers for the politicians, the oligarchs (elite, shadow government, Mil/Ind complex, int bankers, illuminati, etc.), control the
outcomes ***through*** politicians. It sort of offsets the potential targets of people's rage, because people tend to blame politicians first and not
look at the head of the snake. It's smart actually, when their political puppets start falling, the handlers know when to hide.

It sort of offsets the potential targets of people's rage, because people tend to blame politicians first and not look at the head of the
snake. It's smart actually, when their political puppets start falling, the handlers know when to hide

Compellling. Not only but the heads of corporations don't even talk to the politicians themselves, the do it through their representatives in the
PACS.

Also interesting to note that post WWII, as destroyed as places like Germany were, military corporations like Krupp Steel and Mercedes were not called
to task for their involvement, just the "Head Nazis".

Same in Japan. Mitsubishi is still around, their logo is the propeller for their fighter plane during the war, the Zero.

It sort of offsets the potential targets of people's rage, because people tend to blame politicians first and not look at the head of the
snake. It's smart actually, when their political puppets start falling, the handlers know when to hide

Compellling. Not only but the heads of corporations don't even talk to the politicians themselves, the do it through their representatives in the
PACS.

Also interesting to note that post WWII, as destroyed as places like Germany were, military corporations like Krupp Steel and Mercedes were not called
to task for their involvement, just the "Head Nazis".

Same in Japan. Mitsubishi is still around, their logo is the propeller for their fighter plane during the war, the Zero.

I guess that's because it's just like George Carlin said, "It's a club and we ain't in it!" In regards to corporations walking away. Prescott Bush
(George Bush Snr's father) was the same, they actually wanted to charge him with I think it was trading with the enemy during WWII, but he walked and
his assclown son and grandson both became presidents. I could get started on the Gulf war and who sold the weapons to Saddam in 1988/89, because they
weren't prosecuted either, but that would be a bit off-topic.

Health is a perfect example though. We spend more year on year and yet we are told that the NHS is in perpetual crisis. How can this be when spending
keeps increasing? This shows there are fundamental problems with the system itself. .

Because the population in Britain has grown by ten million people in 15 years'

Because there is additional to this a massive increase in NHS tourism - ie people coming to the UK for treatment - they get it for free - NHS
hospitals never ask for proof of residency. [ Note to Americans - if you need healthcare and you are not insured - come to the UK , seriously - you
will get treated - don't tell them you are not resident]

Closure of community hospitals - so no where to rehabilitate people.

Aging population with fragmented families - so the only place where some people can receive care is in hospital.

Lack of nurses [ trained ] because they are treated so badly by employers and the hospitals prefer untrained care assistants.

I recently made comment to a friend that i purposely felt that labour had purposely made ed miliband unelectable - Like they're more than willing to
go along with the conservative plans just not so willing to do the actual dirty work the tories are inflicting on the UK.

The paper's/media are awfully quiet about the complete lack of competent opposition. I swear there is an agenda shared to keep miliband as the
labour leader so the tories can get another 5 years to finish off their little scheme.

The "establishment" always wins, no matter which of the main parties wins the next election and which of their selected party leaders is sitting in
Number 10. Thus, it's a rigged game, from start to finish.

All the cross party bickering is pure political theatre, nothing more. I always ask people, given the amount of arguing and seemingly opposite
viewpoints of the two main parties, you'd think that come election time, the winner would very quickly roll back or repeal the unpopular legislation
the last bunch put in place, that lost them the election. I mean, that would seem logical, wouldn't it?
The fact that it doesn't happen just shows what a farce it all is. Excuses will always be trotted out when that question is asked and it's business
as usual, with the same winners every time.

And what of any serious opposition? Well there is UKIP this time around, but they are a bunch of racists, aren't they? I see the latest picture
doing the rounds on Social media at the moment, of Nigel Farage with a Nazi flag flying behind him (photoshopped of course) and stating that Nick
Griffin (leader of the hated BNP) supports them, so of course UKIP must be Nazis.... right? Talk about a sleazy hatchet job!

The problem is, any party and leader, NOT approved / selected by the establishment will be doomed to failure from the outset, through non-cooperation
and financial shenanigans by the corporate and financial interests that run things globally, as well as here in the UK.

The only way this is ever going to change is for the entire system to be dismantled and a new way of governing set up, with proper oversight by the
people. It's not difficult but takes participation and a willingness by the people to really steer change for the better. Unfortunately, people
have become so conditioned to simply go with the same lies every election cycle, I don't see this happening any time soon.

Meanwhile, the assets of the country, paid for and owned by the people, are continually being sold off to the highest bidder, or well connected
individuals, with cronyism and corruption rampant. Just recently, I see that Stephen Dorrel MP, chair of the Health Select Committee, has accepted a
position with KPMG which is bidding for a £1Billion NHS contract, yet refuses to step down as an MP until May 2015. The conflict of interest is
staggeringly blatant but these criminals are arrogant in the extreme and expect us all to just STFU and suck it up.

The continual banking scandals / fraud are stacking up. The continued cover ups of pedophiles in government and other high places, by successive
governments, the police and intelligence services go on and on. The utter waste of so much money on failed and ill conceived projects by the
government, that cost us so much, and for which there is seemingly no accountability, just keep racking up.

Simply complaining about it just doesn't do any good at all, as decades of such questioning and complaining have shown. They just don't give a damn
about what WE want and what is good for the country.

On a personal note, I recently stuck my head above the parapet and sent a letter to my MP - Minister at the Home Office and Ministry of Justice -
asking why there were no prosecutions of banking execs and others involved in the LIBOR and FOREX rigging (amongst other things). Now, you'd think
in his position, he'd be just the person to head up any prosecutions! Not so, he sent my letter to the Chancellor, slimy George Osborne, for comment
and I still await a reply. I will be following this up and I am determined NOT to let them simply fob me off with excuses and political doublespeak.
If I don't get satisfactory answers, I'll start publishing the whole thing across the net and demand the bloody answers!
One of the points I made, which is a very valid one, is that by suspending the rule of law for the bankers (as an example), the government loses all
credibility and, more importantly, legitimacy to govern. If they do not uphold the very laws they themselves created, then they can have no
expectation that we too are under any obligation to do the same.

Bit of a long winded way to say "up the workers", but it's really bugging me the older and crankier I get!

I think that more and more people are waking up to just how bad the EU is and I think that's why UKIP are starting to take off, but the PTB simply
won't allow it to happen.

My prediction is that they will simply do something like collapse the economy of the UK or create some other kind of "emergency" to either stop the
election from even happening, or to con us that "we have to join the Euro to survive" or some other scaremongered tactic.

I think there are very dark days ahead for all of Europe if this monster isn't stopped.

It's incredible that hundreds of millions of people can be forced into something that the majority don't want by a few thousand people who will be
the major beneficiaries in the end.

Well said, I believe you are spot on with your assessment and couldn't agree more. I do think though that before 'new labour' the labour party did at
least try to represent the interests of the working class.That politics wasn't always the sham it is today, and that Lloyd George and William
Gladstone for instance were truly great humanitarian prime ministers. Lets not forget that the rights and privileges we have today were fought for by
great and noble persons of the past.
It is our responsibility today to continue to fight, to make sure that what they worked so hard to achieve for the benefit of us all isn't eroded
away.

Has anyone here heard of the campaign group www.38degrees.org.uk..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">http...://www.38degrees.org.uk/? Through their efforts they have managed to influence the
policy making of the Gov and certainly ruffle a few feathers in parliament. Organizations such as this can make a difference and remind the Gov it is
our interests they are supposed to represent.

Two things I feel are at the root of the problem with today's society and they are Greed and Apathy. These things are about human values and human
nature and I'm sure for the majority of people at least they can be overcome by higher values.

originally posted by: aightism2
have any of you watched that video I posted ? it was put together by some of the finest british minds there is !!

I watched it and gave you a star for posting it. The video certainly makes the case for getting out of the EU.
With regards to our economy though, and most likely that of many of countries It looks like we are screwed! I mean we can barely pay the interest
alone on the deficit, never mind pay off the debt itself. Even with all the cuts on public spending the deficit continues to grow year in year out.
Has it occurred to anyone that it will never get paid? surely it must have, yet we keep on going as if we will some how balance the books one day.
Perhaps the money lenders realize this but are quite happy to continue with the status quo as the interest payments are substantial and they created
the money borrowed out of thin air in the first place! Clever trick that...

Herein lies the problem with "layman" understanding of how the system works - there is no interest on the deficit. The deficit is simply the balance
of payments and, according to various economic outlets, the UK is predicted to be in surplus by 2018 if things continue as they are.

The debt, that which we do pay interest on, is something else entirely. It is the money borrowed to finance the difference between money in and money
out (the deficit). Some of this debt is over 100 years old (some of it dates back to the 19th century) and is held as various bonds, which are issued
by the Government in return for annual interest payments. Despite some of the scary numbers, it has been far, far higher as a relation to GDP in the
past (currently around 90% GDP whereas it has been as high as 250% GDP before)

These payments, at the moment, cost around £50 billion a year which, despite being quite high (around half the cost of the NHS) is actually quite
affordable - in fact, the UK's debt interest payments when compared as a proportion of GDP is actually among the lowest it has ever been (around 3% of
GDP spent on debt interest)

Now, as far as "paying it off", as long as the budget gets into a surplus then it will simply be a matter of time. Many bonds are 5 or 10 year bonds,
so could be paid off quite quickly. More likely, they will be refinanced into cheaper bonds as an improving fiscal situation in the Government balance
sheet will allow them to get much lower interest rates on those bonds, so the interest payments as a relation to GDP will fall even lower.

What many don't realise is that in 1997, Labour inherited a healthy budget surplus from the outgoing Tory Government, which they whittled away for 3
years until they started running a deficit, which grew and grew. For 10 years of the 13 years in power, they ran a deficit and as a result, started
ramping up the debt. It was under the "Iron Chancellors" watch - merely months after he took power as PM and declared and "end to boom and bust" -
that the biggest boom in 100 years happened and that is when the massive debt started to accrue.

But for some reason, despite an improving economic situation - that Labour said would never happen back in 2010/11 under the Tories - falling
unemployment and against a background of continued economic woe in Europe, our largest trading partner, people want to blame the current Government
and, god forbid, allow Milliband a chance of power next year with Alec Salmond as Deputy PM...

Neither of them has any grasp of sensible economic management (just look at the SNP's management of Scotland's budget - running a worse deficit than
Afghanistan - or Milliband "forgetting" to mention the deficit in a resent party conference) and would lead us down a dark path of economic woe.

Basically, if you think things are bad now, just you wait until Labour and the SNP get their hands on the reigns. Yeah, they'll promise spending here,
there and everywhere, but it will simply come as more debt with no plan to ever pay it back and saddle us with it for generations.

Herein lies the problem with "layman" understanding of how the system works - there is no interest on the deficit. The deficit is simply the balance
of payments and, according to various economic outlets, the UK is predicted to be in surplus by 2018 if things continue as they are.

The debt, that which we do pay interest on, is something else entirely. It is the money borrowed to finance the difference between money in and money
out (the deficit). Some of this debt is over 100 years old (some of it dates back to the 19th century) and is held as various bonds, which are issued
by the Government in return for annual interest payments. Despite some of the scary numbers, it has been far, far higher as a relation to GDP in the
past (currently around 90% GDP whereas it has been as high as 250% GDP before)

These payments, at the moment, cost around £50 billion a year which, despite being quite high (around half the cost of the NHS) is actually quite
affordable - in fact, the UK's debt interest payments when compared as a proportion of GDP is actually among the lowest it has ever been (around 3%
of GDP spent on debt interest)

Now, as far as "paying it off", as long as the budget gets into a surplus then it will simply be a matter of time. Many bonds are 5 or 10 year
bonds, so could be paid off quite quickly. More likely, they will be refinanced into cheaper bonds as an improving fiscal situation in the Government
balance sheet will allow them to get much lower interest rates on those bonds, so the interest payments as a relation to GDP will fall even lower.

What many don't realise is that in 1997, Labour inherited a healthy budget surplus from the outgoing Tory Government, which they whittled away for 3
years until they started running a deficit, which grew and grew. For 10 years of the 13 years in power, they ran a deficit and as a result, started
ramping up the debt. It was under the "Iron Chancellors" watch - merely months after he took power as PM and declared and "end to boom and bust" -
that the biggest boom in 100 years happened and that is when the massive debt started to accrue.

But for some reason, despite an improving economic situation - that Labour said would never happen back in 2010/11 under the Tories - falling
unemployment and against a background of continued economic woe in Europe, our largest trading partner, people want to blame the current Government
and, god forbid, allow Milliband a chance of power next year with Alec Salmond as Deputy PM...

Neither of them has any grasp of sensible economic management (just look at the SNP's management of Scotland's budget - running a worse deficit than
Afghanistan - or Milliband "forgetting" to mention the deficit in a resent party conference) and would lead us down a dark path of economic woe.

Basically, if you think things are bad now, just you wait until Labour and the SNP get their hands on the reigns. Yeah, they'll promise spending
here, there and everywhere, but it will simply come as more debt with no plan to ever pay it back and saddle us with it for
generations.

'That was a party political broadcast on behalf of the Conservative party'.

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