“the court’s determination that N.J.S.A. 43:3C-9.5(a)-(b) creates a contractual right to receipt of cost-of-living adjustments.”

Another stalling tactic since there seems no way to win this appeal unless they are thinking of…..

arguing that you can’t enter into contracts with incompetents or the insane in which case the Christie administration with their bridge closings, inane youtubes, and denials of the obvious has already laid a strong foundation.

JOHN, WHO PAYS FOR THESE APPEALS? IS IT COSTLY? A WASTE IF TAXPAYERS MONEY? WILL PLEASE TELL TL THAT CHRISTIE SERVES NO CITIZEN OF THE STATE BUT HIMSELF AND POSSIBLY MILLIONAIRES, NOT EVEN SURE IF HE SERVES MILLIONAIRES.

TL as usual resorting to personal attacks and insults and then denying it that she ever does so. She has Crispy Creme tendency. Lie in the face of the truth because it works. What a pile of human garbage!

If he took a course in contract law, he would have been told it is not a contract without consideration offered in exchange. If pensions were increased in exchange for political support, then it is the politicians who should pay for them not younger and future New Jerseyans.

There are also rules about fraud. If older generations fraudulently underfunded the pensions to get lower taxes, that doesn’t mean younger generations deserved to be victimized in their place. The problem is, many of the beneficiaries have already headed for Florida.

Having left for Florida does NOT Stop Taxpayers from rightfully ELIMINATING that share of promised pensions which resulted from the Public Sector Unions’ BUYING of the favorable votes of our elected officials with campaign contributions and election support.

In fact, it makes such reductions easier, as those who are not domiciled in NJ cannot vote in NJ elections.

Its all smoke and mirrors, stall as long as you can, more smoke and mirrors, costly appeals, still no money to pay, the pensions are gone except that no one want to look that ugly truth in the face. Its a run away train so rip up the track and let it go over the cliff. Unfortunately, as always, there will be collateral damage all around. The politician serve only themselves and there is no honor among thieves.

When was a “contract” executed, and what consideration was given by the “workers” as part of that contract. Also, contracts are voidable based on “mutual mistake”. Arguably, the belief that trees grow to the sky, which underlies the apparent assumption that there is a source of income big enough to meet these promises is exactly that, a huge mistake. Contracts are voided by bankruptcy judges all the time. So why are public sector benefit promises so sacrosanct, exactly?

Well….Mr. Know It All…..if you knew anything you’d know that there is no provision for a state of the United States to declare bankruptcy. Others here continually post about Detroit, Pritchard, AL, etc . but those are CITY PLANS.

Also, you mention a “mutual mistake”….in such a case BOTH parties would have to agree a mutual mistake was made…..not gonna happen since public workers/unions would not and should not ever agree to such a thing. Contracts were NEGOTIATED and AGREED TO.

Yeah, yeah…I can hear you and the other sanctimonious whiners crying “but WE didn’t agree to anything!!!…waaaa!!!!”……YES, YOU DID by electing and giving the power to those elected officials to negotiate on your behalf. Don’t like it….too bad…..you should have shown up at town/State budget meetings and committee meeting to voice your displeasure and demand they not give raises, etc……It would have been a pathetic site really….you, TL, Javagold and a few others standing there protesting any giveaways while the politicians smiled weakly and acknowledged your misgivings while all the time thinking “are these dopes serious???…..I need more votes than this so I can’t ever go against the unions & the families/voters of public employees”.

Ha…….can you fry an egg on your forehead yet???? HaHaha.

As stated very wisely by a Jewish proverb……There are 2 kinds of people;

Schlemiels – those who spill the soup

Schlemazels – those who get the soup spilled on them

So…..you and other anti-pension, anti-public employee haters like TL, Javagold, etc. are and will forever remain SCHLEMAZELS……SOUP FOR YOU!!! (bring a raincoat…..hee hee).

Quoting … “Yeah, yeah…I can hear you and the other sanctimonious whiners crying “but WE didn’t agree to anything!!!…waaaa!!!!”……YES, YOU DID by electing and giving the power to those elected officials to negotiate on your behalf. Don’t like it….too bad….”

You think your so smart …… your obnoxious disregard for the Taxpayers and gross “entitlement mentality” will make it SOOOO much easier for Taxpayers to simply walk away when your Plans go belie-up in a few years.

While I’m sure you’ll still be obnoxious, I trust that you won’t be so happy when material pension/benefit hit in a few years.

The reason there is no provision for a bankruptcy provision for states is because in a Federalist System, any power not provided expressly to the federal government is already RESERVED to the states. Perhaps you should read the 10th amendment?

The only thing you pubic ticks hang your hat on is the impairment of contracts cause. What must and will happen eventually is that the NJ and federal constitution will be amended to provide an exemption to the ban on impairment of contracts. And that is if the state and country does not sink into total anarchy first.

In the meantime, the pension funds will be emptied without the formality of a declaration of bankruptcy. COLA, being restored, hastens this process. Unfortunately for the public elite maggotry, the NJ supreme court has no power to fashion a taxation scheme able to fund the “trees growing to the sky” benefits promised. They can “mandate” that the payments be made, and so, when Christie leaves office, we will see whether Sweeney or whichever other Demonrat takes Christie’s place caves in and rams through the mother of all tax increases or pursues a “more of the same’ incrementalism approach to avoid raising the ire of the taxpayers. Both approaches are doomed to failure.

The first is doomed to fail because the frogs will immediately jump out of the pot and there will be no tax base left. The second is doomed because even at the present rate of taxation (property taxes in particular), those who can are already crossing the river into PA and DE and points south).

But, then, being a know-it-all yourself, trutha$$holie, you already knew all of the above. Blood sucking ticks make me sick even without lyme disease, so I made the prudent decision of getting out of NJ before Christie leaves office. Once a Marxocrat takes his place, the rate of acceleration into the sinkhole will only increase.

Yeah, yeah, yeah……I’ve heard it all before how the state constitution will be amended, everyone will bail out of the state if taxes are raised…blah, blah, blah….so shut your blowhole moron.

You and the other anti-pension/public employee d-bags here have some grand vision of all the people in this state loading up the wagons and heading out like the pilgrimage led by Moses to the promised land. What you in your limited mindset fail to realize is that most….MOST people have families, jobs, friends, homes, kids in school, etc. that they can’t or are not willing to just bail on everything on a whim so they will stay in place and just pay what they need to (going by your “formerjerseyan” tag you were probably able to leave since you had no friends and your family hated you).

You surely ain’t no Moses but I’m sure in your elevated sense of yourself you have visions of leading a group of other chagrined & envious members of the populace out of NJ on a white horse…..problem is it would be just you and a few other self important dolts (I’m looking at you TL, Javagold, etc) who think they speak for all people of the state.

Oh and re: amending the state constitution……shows how delusional you really are…..do you actually think that any senator/congressman would attempt to push that through knowing full well they’d be cutting their own pensions while also further alienating the unions & public workers whose votes they need for re-election????…..Hahaha…..Ozzy has your number:

“I’m just a dreamer
I dream my life away
I’m just a dreamer
Who dreams of better days”

Trutha$$holie seems unaware of the ease by which the NJ constitution can be altered. All it takes is a punt by the legislature to put it to the voters via a public question (as opposed to the usual way they “put it to the voters”).

Who do you think will win once the need to divert all revenue to public workers and retirees arises, cutting off the normal robin hood shenanigans. The day IS approaching. REPENT public sector sinners and you will (or at least may) be saved. Maybe that is why McGreevey is a clergyman now – trying to undo all that unclean living as a marxocrat. LOL

I actually look forward to truthnolie’s posts and responses-.He seems to have a real knack of cutting thru the BS and calling it like it is. His arguments are mostly valid and an valuable counterweight to the extremes of the other side.

If you have 25+ years in the pension system, then you should get every penny promised. For every year under the 25, reduce payments by 2%. Anyone not vested (10 years or more), you get your money back plus a small contribution.

as a career-state employee with 30 years in the pension system, I must say your proposal strikes me poorly. I agree draconian changes must be made to this pyramid scheme, but really? I’m too old to make other plans and start saving in a 401K. I purposely decided to become a state worker though despite the low-pay, the benefits were great and the long-term prospects of my employer were equally promising. I do blame democrats as well as republicans and even we voters who elected them into office. However, I can only vote today in my best interest…which is to keep my pension (and for those with 25 years or more).

Unlike cities like Detroit, the state can not declare bankruptcy and throw in the towel (thankfully). No, instead…reverse the Abott decision, stop giving away hundreds of millions in incentives to business who only produce scant real jobs, increase the sales tax and the gasoline tax (both fairly low), eliminate UEZ Zones (what a joke), increase (yes..increase) the tax on the wealthy (they won’t move), eliminate the DB plan for anyone with less than 10 years, and tell TL to stop bitching and start pitching.

Quoting …”I agree draconian changes must be made to this pyramid scheme,”

Please suggest some …. with AT LEAST 50% coming from the workers/retirees. Make sure you cover the entire CURRENT $150 Billion CURRENT (PAST service) asset shortfall (when measured under appropriate accounting procedures).

And P.S>, your cash pay might have been lower than your Private Sector counterpart in the 1-st 10 years of your career, but for the last 20 years, PUBLIC Sector “cash pay” has caught up and in many occupations is now greater than that of their Private Sector counterpart.

There is simply ZERO justification for a continuation of these grossly excessive Public Sector pensions & benefits.

I am all for giving publix a DB option as long as they agree that it is THEY that have to cough up the extra funding when it goes lean for lack of market performance. Likewise, the State would have to forego raiding the DB accounts during periods of above-trend performance (like previous Governors have done).

But, I presume when the publix see that HALF OF THEIR DISCRETIONARY INCOME would have to go into their accounts, and even then they would not be able to draw funds in retirement til age 65 even if they are cops or firefighters (who after all have 20 years of productive life in them after they hang up their “capes”).

So, they will do what the rest of us have done. They are already experts at bailing on NJ as soon as they retire since no one wants to eat where the $hit and they have collectively, with their union and political co-conspirators really shat upon the formerly great state of NJ – battlefield and crossroads of the Revolution. If the state keeps on its present path, it is likely to be the scene of yet another revolution (too bad muskets are no match for drones).

There would be no problem had Gov. Whitman not steal Billions from the pension system and than not pay a single cent back. The Pension was very healthy and self
sustaining until the stealing began.
If this was a private pension these thieves would still be in jail, but since it is State run and controlled they can break the law with impunity.
These people payed into their pension system and deserve their benefits as
promised. This Gov. in office now is a crook and does not care how many lives he is destroying, Republicans seem to screw the little people as much and as long as they can. I was a republican until I learned about this travesty, but since, have changed to democrat as will many others.
The Democrats in office should not allow this to happen and make this Gov. do the right thing, or they will be replaced come election time.

Quoting … “These people payed into their pension system and deserve their benefits as
promised.”

Yup they did pay into their pensions, but if you took all of their contributions (INCLUDING all the investment returns on those contributions) and accumulated it to the date of retirement, the accumulated sum would rarely be sufficient to buy more that 10-20% of the VERY rich promised pensions….. granted by our elected officials bought-off with Public Sector Union campaign contributions and election support.

Tell you what …. you can have your contributions back (with interest) and we’ll call it even-Steven.

When BOTH the richer Public Sector pension Plan “formulas” and MUCH more generous Public Sector Plan “provisions”(such as very young full retirement ages, VERY liberal definitions of “pensionable compensation”, and COLA increases almost NEVER included in Private Sector Plans) are factored in, the best fortune 500 DB Plans might approach 50% of the value of the TYPICAL Public Sector DB Plan.

AND, almost all of those Private Sector plans are closed to new employees, and 50-75% no longer grant further accruals even for CURRENT employees.

I’m guessing that VERY material retiree healthcare reductions will be the main element of Gov. Christie’s planned cutbacks. Certainly less protection than for pensions.

But the main question is ….. CAN we, and WILL we either (a) freeze the current DB Plans ansd replace them with MODEST DC Plans or (b) materially reduce (by 50+%) the pension accrual rate for the future service of CURRENT workers.

TL, not sure how to reply to your post directly, but, in theory it is at least possible to do (a) or (b). However, I see neither happening until things get much worse, That is, the courts (Supreme and State) – which are least equipped to perform the analysis because they lack the staffing to do the investigatory work, conduct hearings, perform benchmarking with other states, etc – would have to determine that there is no alternative having a less material impact on the class of “contract beneficiaries” besides (a) or (b).

For now, the siren call of making the other guy (i.e., the bête noire known to Obama as the ubiquitous legion of millionaires and billionaires) pay the freight is way too attractive. Literally, the legislature needs to see a collapse in employment, in property values and concomitant increases in crime and public assistance roles before they make the connection between high taxes and total lack of a tax base.

Christie recognizes NJ is dangerously close to such a catastrophic loss of tax base (and that the DEMS’ plan will push it over the edge), he is in the minority – the moronic NJ voters decided after all to give him a democrat legislature. The DEMS may also recognize this but are choosing what they know. From their experience, there is no downside to blaming the unpatriotic wealthy from bugging out.

So, no fix. NJ will not choose (a) or (b). It will either choose to do what it did last time around (Christie’s first term) – assuming they can come up with another “compromise” or, in the alternative:

The DEMS will pass a budget funding all their priorities in 2015, along with a millionaires tax to keep the train running over a few more mountain passes. Christie will veto the tax and strike down their spending. The Supreme Ct may then hit Christie with a writ of mandamus insisting he fund the “contract promises” using the legislature’s plan or something else which gets the job done. Then, hopefully, Christie will man up and honor the pension promises and slash the piss out of every other State spending program to fully fund the promises (not the token amount they made up but an actuarially sound amount).

The hue and cry from the cities (urban centers) around the State, as well as the education lobby will be deafening. But it will force the issue to a head. I truly hope this is what Christie wants. It would be the prelude to forcing the issue to a public question in which the Constitution is amended as necessary to implement your options (a) or (b).

Having left NJ, my view is that Christie will cave and “compromise” in the insane belief that this will somehow endear him to the presidential electorate (overlooking the fact that he will never make it past the primaries).

Part of the problem is that while those in the real world were adjusting benefits, salaries, retirement plans etc to reflect the fact that people were living longer, health benefit costs were outpacing inflation, workers were expected to become more efficient and productive in private companies. When things crashed in 2008 everyone else adjusted and most took a hit to their retirements, etc. but not the public workers. That’s where I have the problem. Taxpayers are expected to keep nonpaying no matter what the economic circumstances, no matter that thier salaries and benefits are most likely re-adjusted to reflect rising costs. Not a level playing field but somehow the publics feel that they are entitled no matter what is going on in the real world.

And……what you conveniently leave out is that, had the state continued to fund the pension systems as required over the decade they DIDN”T, the plans would now be in fine shape even with the 2008 downturn.

Had these yearly contributions been made, we would not be having the so called pension disaster (which, again, everyone tends to lump all systems together – from my understanding the Local parts are not in terrible shape but no one seems to acknowledge this). By the way, employees ALWAYS had to keep contributing.

With the influx of the money that should have been put in AND the COMPOUNDING INTEREST over the years the plans would be secure……but again you & others choose to blame the public workers (“somehow the publics feel that they are entitled”) instead of laying blame on the State.

Let me ask you a question…..Say you conservatively invested your money in a 401K for 25+ years and when you were ready for retirement the 401K institution said….”sorry…..our company fell on hard times so you won’t be getting what you think since our people mismanaged things…thanks!”…..You’d just calmly smile and say “no problem, I understand…your people are only human and incompetence happens…..and the 2008 thing didn’t help…”

I can’t understand what he is so angry and bitter about if he is living his little cushy pension retirement. Just so abrasive and the angry, aggressive….ugh! Maybe he needs a support group but I’ll second your motion TL!

Required reading for those looking to be EDUCATED on the impact of the grossly excessive Public Sector pensions & benefits granted Public Sector workers everywhere ……. and the CANCER that the intransigent Public Sector Unions represent:

“So, what’s the answer? It’s long past the time for our elected officials to acknowledge what private sector employers have known for decades. Guaranteed pensions are unsustainable — they subject owners/stockholders to unlimited liability, but without unlimited revenue — an untenable risk. Why our elected officials believe that they can freely subject taxpayers to this same risk is astounding. Until our elected officials stop this insanity by terminating all defined benefit pension plans, we’ll continue to see declining public services, reduced police and fire protection, and bankrupt public entities.”

Truthnolie, that’s exactly what happens with 401ks, roth Iras, stock investments, etc. If the funds don’t do well, your investment shrinks despite what one contributed. The state has not paid into the pension funds for years bc it CANNOT afford to and this has been known for a very long time. Hence, promises were made that could not be kept, and now all that is left are schemes and short term “solutions” to fix it. If it could be “fixed” it would have been. Don’t you wonder why administration after administration has not paid in? Why wouldn’t they pay??? Because no one throws good money after bad money. You may be okay deepening on how long you have been retired but changes are coming and you will have to adjust like everyone else. You sound so angry and defensive, probably bc in your heart of hearts you know that the gravy train is coming to an end. Its just a matter of how and when. I don’t hate pulbic workers but I don’t beleive that you deserve anything more than other hard working people who go to work, pay their taxes and take responsiblity for thier own retirements.

I can’t wait for Christie to get indicted and the true merchannts of greed, insurance company workers like yourself, stands in the unemployment line as people come to the realization that no one should pay 30k to insure their family. Viva Obamacare! Take that you tired old hairy troll!

TL, don’t even respond to these people. Just keep educating the readers on why the pensions can’t be paid. Its curious to me why not one of them ponders the reason why for years and years the penisons have not been paid into. Why wouldn’t the politicians pay the pensions? Becasue they all know it is a sinking ship and hope to be long gone by the time the sh*t hits the fan. Just my opinion.

According to census figures total employment in Union County is at 202,372. According to New Jersey pension records 20,878 of those jobs are in government. Theoretically then 10% of the members of the Union County Democratic Committee should also be working in government to be representative of the general population. It’s not even close. When […]