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I used to use the double fishermans for raps-- now there's a knot to untie

I used to do this too but I switched to double Figure-8 (a little faster for me to tie) or EDK if there is a danger of getting the knot stuck in a crack (read Red Rocks!). EDK freaks me out a little though.

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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Another advantage of the figure eight is most/all climbers can easily visually confirm if another climbers eight is finished properly. I for one am not sure if I could look at a bowline and know it's finished properly, which would make it more difficult to check my partner if that was their knot of choice.

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Have a quiche, now, or maybe a tort. You deserve it!-bristolpipe

I like to keep things simple, even if it's faaaken painful and miserable.-Stoney Middleton

This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption.-Friar Tuck

DLottmann

Any comment about the eight follow through with the tail tucked back in? ...

I used to use this alot. Robb Hess's take on it was it makes it harder to inspect the proper knot (and it can be done wrong). I've seen many people do this "figure-9" or "Yosemite finish" incorrectly. If you pass around the load stand the wrong direction it is significantly weaker.

As for the defense of the bowline... "ease of untying" is a bit silly in my book... I've never met a figure 8 I couldn't untie... then again I guess if you are taking repeated whippers on a sport climb it might be an issue... and the fact that most your partners can't competently double check it for you leaves it all on you... which I guess is OK... but I like having someone look at my knot... EVERYTIME!

Bottom Line: Learning to tie a regular 8 without ending up with too much slack is definitely the best option, though other options "exist"...

I am choosy with my climbing partners. They are all bright, experienced and able to tell if my knot is tied correctly , or if they aren't familiar with the double bowline they are conscientious enough to ask about it, which serves the purpose of making me triple check it..

Ward, if you want hard to untie, you should use the figure 8, hangman's noose finish, topped off with sixteen square knots.

The figure 8 has some potential problems, if used without the proper backup knot according to what I have read. It can roll if you are clipped into the loop and are using the Yosemite finish.

You people are way too worried about knot style when consistent double checking of everything is the most important aspect of climbing safety. I learned that right off the bat from my mentors and that is emphasized when I do stuff by myself way out in the woods. You have to double check everything methodically so something simple doesn't leave you stranded on the side of the cliff with no help.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 03:22:17 PM by M_Sprague »

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"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."

Sorry, I meant to write the figure 8 with yosemite finish. I'll correct above. Supposedly it is even worse with a bowline if you didn't use the half fishermans stopper knot. So the stopper knot is indeed important even with the figure 8, since climbers use it in more ways than simply one directional load bearing.

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"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."

Hmm. I have done what is shown in the diagram with a quickdraw at a bolt (when setting in the gym) and never had I have the sense that the knot was going to capsize or roll. I have my Figure-8 chinched pretty tight whenever I use the Yosemite finish though. However, if you add an extra wrap around the rope with the free-end before tucking it back into the knot, the chance of capsize is greatly reduced, according to the the AAI. See pic below. I believe Tradman had alluded to this before. I do the extra wrap whenever I can (sometimes a really fat rope discourages this extra wrap).