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Afrofem, when we started this debate I asked you to state the white privileges Whites have. Your comments clearly show that you resent whites for said privileges but you are a little vague in stating what these privileges are. You provided a list of advantages whites enjoy and call them privileges.
Let’s define privilege and take them one by one:
1) priv·i·lege
ˈpriv(ə)lij/
noun
noun: privilege; plural noun: privileges

1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
“education is a right, not a privilege”
synonyms: advantage, benefit; prerogative, entitlement, right;
concession, freedom, liberty
“senior students have certain privileges”. I would agree with you that Whites have more freedom than others because they are white. Privilege, restricted to that definition, is incontrovertible in my opinion, but wrong if you claim Whites have special rights that nobody else enjoys.
2) “The net worth of the average White family is nine times the net worth of the average Black family.” How is that a special right that only Whites
enjoy? Some Asians do better than Whites and some Blacks do better than the average Black family.
3) “The White privilege of those unemployed White workers also means that they don’t have to worry about constant police harassment in their neighborhoods or the spector of long term imprisonment for “broken windows” offenses.” All you’ve shown here is that Blacks have not attained full equality under the law, nothing else. Whites enjoy full citizenship. That’s a right not a privilege in the sense that they are getting something they have no legitimate right to. Blacks have, correctly, always fought for the same right.
4) ” Your hypothetical “redneck GI” is more privileged than Colin Powell on several fronts. It is a false argument to conflate the White enlisted man’s privilege bestowed on him by virtue of his skin color to the privilege of rank earned by Colin Powell. Ditto for any White working woman and Oprah (a favorite strawman) of White privilege deniers.” Interesting, you believe in the privilege of rank as long as it’s earned? I’m certain that you can find a number of whites who satisfy your criterion. Can you deny that Bill Gates earned his privilege? John Henry Thompson, the inventor of the Lingo software language is virtually unknown probably because he’s black. Is this a case of unearned white privilege? Could be, US society isn’t wired to celebrate black creativity on equal terms with white creativity. Maybe, it might be because one made an indecent amount of money while the other didn’t. Getting back to my hypothetical “redneck GI”, please tell me how his privilege allows him to disregard an order from Powell that could cost him his life?

“…Your comments clearly show that you resent whites for said privileges”

You are joking, right?

I think any system that confers unearned privileges on the basis of skin color, gender or any other criteria is due for an overhaul. I’m not resentful of individuals. The system is the problem——and the solution.

…wrong if you claim Whites have special rights that nobody else enjoys.

I do see European descent Americans as having a full tranche of privileges that other Americans do not enjoy. Every single White child knows that he/she is part of a dominant group and that that makes them “normal” and everyone else less than normal or desirable.

Conversely, every Black American child realizes around the age of four that everything about them is considered less than “normal” or desirable. It is a crushing realization that some Black children internalize, personalize and never recover from.

“As a white person, I realized I had been taught about racism as something that puts others at a disadvantage, but had been taught not to see one of its corollary aspects, white privilege, which puts me at an advantage.

I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege…I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was “meant” to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools and blank checks.[…]

The pressure to avoid it is great, for in facing it I must give up the myth of meritocracy. If these things are true, this is not such a free country; one’s life is not what one makes it; many doors open for certain people through no virtues of their own.[…]

My skin color was an asset for any move I was educated to want to make.

[…]obliviousness about white advantage, like obliviousness about male advantage, is kept strongly inculturated in the United States so as to maintain the myth of meritocracy, the myth that democratic choice is equally available to all. Keeping most people unaware that freedom of confident action is there for just a small number of people props up those in power and serves to keep power in the hands of the same groups that have most of it already.”

McIntosh goes on to list 26 everyday ways in which she can count on White privilege to smooth her interactions with other people and how she think s of herself.

One privilege on the list really hit home for me:“10. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.”

I’ve had retail workers demand picture identification on a regular basis when I use credit or debit cards. The workers who are most insistent about ID are Latino and Asian immigrants, plus some Black people. In some cases, I would be the only person in a checkout line who was expected to produce ID.

So yes, gro jo, White privilege is not a chimera to me. It is all too real.

“One privilege on the list really hit home for me:
“10. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.”

I’ve had retail workers demand picture identification on a regular basis when I use credit or debit cards. The workers who are most insistent about ID are Latino and Asian immigrants, plus some Black people. In some cases, I would be the only person in a checkout line who was expected to produce ID.

So yes, gro jo, White privilege is not a chimera to me. It is all too real.”

If that’s what you call a privilege, we are already in agreement. You failed to note the following passage I wrote above: “I would agree with you that Whites have more freedom than others because they are white. Privilege, restricted to that definition, is incontrovertible in my opinion, but wrong if you claim Whites have special rights that nobody else enjoys.”
As I’ve indicated on the previous thread, the only privilege whites enjoy that nobody else does is to receive lenient treatment after killing a nonwhite person. I’ve used credit cards, routinely, without having to show ID. In my experience, the demand for ID has occurred mostly at establishments run by Hispanics, not Whites! Our experience match!
Are you sure you quoted this accurately? It makes no sense: “10. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.” What does “… I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.” mean? Why would it be a good thing to have one’s skin color not work against the appearance of financial stability?
Let’s sum up. The stuff you present are rights that Whites have and Blacks don’t due to the history of the USA. Blacks should strive for parity, not some nonsense about Whites giving up the rights they enjoy as full citizens. The whole white privilege thing, except, in white on black or any other person of color homicide, is nonsense.

“10. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.”
Oh, I get it now, she was saying that her white skin did not undermine the appearance of financial stability.

“What shaped your opinion on White privilege?”
As a kid, I spent two years rubbing shoulders with whites in French boarding schools and as a guest during the weekends at the homes of white families. I came away from this experience with a more realistic view of whites. Most of the White privilege claims are at odds with my personal experience. The waitstaff at these institutions, regardless of their personal opinions, waited on me the way they waited on all the other boarders. Every Thursday, we would stroll along the town’s canal where boats called péniches were docked. I never had a doubt that I was better off than the kids I saw on these boats. Enough with the biographical detail, on to the shakiness of the whole White Privilege concept.
Your hero, Chauncey DeVega wrote: “White privilege is a concept which describes the unearned social, political, economic, and other advantages that white people receive because of their skin color…An acknowledgement of privilege often requires that a person reorient themselves in the world and reconsider their relationships with other people.”
So, White individuals, no matter what their personal circumstance, have the power to upend a system that’s “…an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was “meant” to remain oblivious.” by reorienting themselves in the world and reconsider their relationships with other people!? That,to me, sounds like a variant of Dorothy clicking her heels and saying “There’s no place like home”. My view is that most of what’s called “white privilege” is white people enjoying their rights as citizens of a republic. Blacks and others should aspire to do the same, not demand that Whites give up what they earned through revolutions and reforms.

Why should Black people “aspire to” enjoy the rights of citizens of a republic when they contribute to the economy & culture, pay taxes, fight wars and have even deeper roots in said republic than the White citizens (most Black families have been in the US for 300 years versus an average 150 years for White families).

Why are the rights of Black Americans conditional on the goodwill of others and the rights of White Americans guaranteed in theory and practice?

From my perspective, your statement, “White individuals, no matter what their personal circumstance, have the power to upend a system…” ignores the fact that European-Americans don’t have to “upend” anything. They are free to access the riches of this society to the extent that they know what is available. Many low income White Americans are simply ignorant of all that is available to them. Why should they care? Many White Americans with less than a high school education earn more than Black Americans with college degrees.

https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/heres-what-economists-dont-understand-about-race” In what way did the article make you think of me?
“Why should Black people “aspire to” enjoy the rights of citizens of a republic when they contribute to the economy & culture, pay taxes, fight wars and have even deeper roots in said republic than the White citizens (most Black families have been in the US for 300 years versus an average 150 years for White families).” Because they don’t have a choice in the matter. Whites will not give up any of their hard won rights to please Blacks or anybody else. Blacks will have to continue to challenge the social system as they have since they landed in the Americas.
I don’t see why you would object to the term “aspire to” unless you are claiming that Blacks have already achieved the goal or the goal is no longer worth persuing.
William Darity, Jr. is correct when he wrote the following: ” “There’s actually something convenient about those arguments in the sense that if you took them seriously, it would mean that blacks were fully capable of engaging in the self-correction to improve their situation, so there would not necessarily be any need to rely upon social policy that would require the political support of whites,”…“Obviously there are always going to be individuals who are outliers, who accomplish great things with minimal resources. But if we’re thinking about patterns at the average, then I think one of the most dramatic statistics that we’ve discovered in the work that we’ve been doing is that blacks with a college education, that is, blacks who have a college degree, have two-thirds of the net worth of whites who never finished high school. That’s a stark sense in which somebody has taken personal responsibility, has been motivated, has achieved, but there’s not the same payoff.”… “If you buy the black dysfunction story, then the key is for young black men to pull up their pants or the equivalent,”… “But that’s a very different policy from saying, well, we should assure all Americans a human right to work. Or even if we don’t talk about an employment guarantee, then at least the basic income guarantee.”…“If we’re concerned about black-white disparities specifically and we want to have a race-specific policy, then I think we have to start talking about a program of reparations [for slavery].”… “If we are not willing to pursue race-specific policies,” Darity argues, “then we need universal programs that are race-conscious in the sense that they will disproportionately benefit the most disadvantaged groups even though they are programs that everyone is eligible for.” One such program would be a Federal job guarantee. ”
The candidacy of that old faker “Bernie” Sanders tells me that a number of Whites would go for something like a Federal job guarantee. Thanks for introducing Darity to me. He stands head and shoulders above DeVega.
“From my perspective, your statement, “White individuals, no matter what their personal circumstance, have the power to upend a system…” ignores the fact that European-Americans don’t have to “upend” anything.”
Shame on you Afrofem for misquoting me. Here’s the quotation in full: “So, White individuals, no matter what their personal circumstance, have the power to upend a system that’s “…an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was “meant” to remain oblivious.” by reorienting themselves in the world and reconsider their relationships with other people!? As it shows, I’m questioning the claim that European-Americans can change a system they are oblivious to after DeVega tells them about it. They would simply disbelieve him and dismiss his argument as nonsense. So, harping on about “White Privilege” is a waste of time in my opinion.
“They are free to access the riches of this society to the extent that they know what is available. Many low income White Americans are simply ignorant of all that is available to them. Why should they care? Many White Americans with less than a high school education earn more than Black Americans with college degrees.

That to me, is the very epitome of White privilege.”
You’ve already clearly stated your antipathy to them in your original comment. “@villagewriter

Thanks for the link.

I found John Ibbitson’s argument full of false equivalents and maudlin sympathy for working class White people. Sympathy I don’t share.”

Afrofem, I don’t know if you realize it but your claims about poor whites sounds like the stuff White conservatives say about poor blacks. You could make a fortune making all those ignorant whites aware of the ‘limitless’ opportunities available to them!

Nightmare online magazine (horror and dark fantasy) (http://www.nightmare-magazine.com) is running a special issue in October called “People of Colo(u)r Destroy Horror!” in the same vein as the Lightspeed magazine special issue I posted about here:

I find it hilarious that you would defend people who skate on their unearned skin privilege every day of their lives. People who become angry and defensive if you so much as speak standard English to them.

I grew up with the people you are defending. They are not strangers to me. I understand them like a mongoose understands a cobra. I know they would harm and abuse cosmopolitan, European prep school you just as readily as they harm and abuse a poor, Black tin-roof shack dweller from Alabama.

So no, I have no sympathy for the “people from Peoria”. I recognize their humanity and would give them basic respect——–which is way, way more than you or I would receive in return from them.

They chose over the past forty years to sway to rightwing snake charmers and now they have to pay the piper. They had the power to collaborate with Black people and others to build a country where everyone thrives. They chose otherwise.

We will all have to suffer through a long period of instability, because they chose their vaunted White privilege over the good of the nation.

I find it hilarious that you would defend people who skate on their unearned skin privilege every day of their lives. People who become angry and defensive if you so much as speak standard English to them.”
Oh, come on now, where have I defended anybody? If they are skating on their unearned skin privilege, how can they also be ignorant of “all that is available to them.”?
Where have I denied that they enjoy more breaks than non-whites? I’ve only argued that what DeVega and you claim to be absolute advantages are relative ones.
I’ve held off on the sarcasm in this discussion with you because I admire and respect your intellect. It pains me to see you resort to silly accusations like the one above or twisting my skeptical question regarding DeVega’s program to deprogram Whites, to make it appear as if I’m trying to excuse White racism.
If this discussion pains you, I’m perfectly willing to drop it, since we’ve both already expressed our views on the subject. I have no wish to see it degenerate into a litany of unfounded accusations

“They chose over the past forty years to sway to rightwing snake charmers and now they have to pay the piper. They had the power to collaborate with Black people and others to build a country where everyone thrives. They chose otherwise.”
Really? What was going on in 1976 to lead you to such conclusion?

I finally had a chance to read that article that included comments from Elaine Brown.

I found the author, Tim Slater’s style to be filled with typical British sarcasm and sensationalism. In the author’s rush to label BLM as ineffective, the author leans heavily into hyperbole such as:

“Politics is about seeing the world as it is and how it might be. But BLM’s pessimistic, conspiratorial views on ‘white supremacy’ render it incapable of seeing either. And its chronic lack of vision has brought it into conflict not just with former Panthers, but with the old civil-rights establishment.

As the US-based journalist Jenny Jarvie notes, civil-rights veteran and former mayor of Atlanta Andrew Young recently said BLMers were ‘unlovable little brats’ who lacked ‘a clear message’. Atlanta activists responded in an unfortunately bratty fashion: ‘It is dismissive and disrespectful to ask black people why they are taking to the streets, affirming their lives and healing.’”

Quoting Andrew “Sell-Out” Young in the same article with Elaine Brown is an insult to Brown. While I understand Brown’s frustration with BLM, I am reminded of two things:

1. The Black Panther Party (BPP) was far from perfect. They were a group of twenty-somethings trying to challenge a vicious system with very little help or guidance. I don’t think they ever truly understood the strengths or weaknesses of their adversaries. I deeply respect their effort and their sacrifice (many members are still being held as political prisoners to this day.)

2. BLM/The Movement For Black Lives is far from perfect. They are a group of twenty-somethings trying to challenge a vicious system with very little help or guidance. I don’t think they truly understand the strengths or weaknesses of their adversaries (some of whom they are accepting funding from—–big mistake). I deeply respect their effort and their sacrifice.

In other words, I see BLM’s struggle as a continuation of BPP’s struggle. At least they have the guts to make a stand.

I really like Tananarive Due’s science fiction and fantasy work. I have difficulties with the horror genre, but many stories are more like dark fantasy which doesn’t bother me. I make sure never to read Nightmare late at night because some of the stories are too creepy for me and I can rarely tell which ones by the title alone.

If you look back in the archives, they also did special issues called Women Destroy Horror! and Queers Destroy Horror!

“I was curious about the collaboration with Blacks part of your comment, when was that on the agenda and who put it there?”

1. Before his assassination in 1969, Fred Hampton of the Black Panther Party was able to build a coalition in Chicago that included the BPP, the Puerto Rican Young Lords and a working class White group called the Young Patriots. According to Jakobi Williams, associate professor of African American and African diaspora studies and history at Indiana University. in an interview with Aaron Leonard:

“The Black Panther Party on a national level worked diligently to form coalitions that transcended race under a rubric of class struggle against the US capitalist system. What makes the Illinois chapter of the Panthers so profound is that they were able to reach and exceed the goals set forth by the Party’s founder in a city with much racial strife. There were at least six major racial explosions in the city of Chicago in the 1960s alone.

Due to the genius of Bob Lee and Fred Hampton, they were able to build an alliance with the Young Patriots, poor southern white migrants located on the north side in Uptown and many of its members used the confederate flag as its symbol. Bob Lee was able to demonstrate the commonalities of their struggles and the ILBPP [Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party] had community service programs to solve all the issues that the poor white migrants faced such as: the Free Breakfast Program, the Free Health Clinic, and several others. The Panthers trained the Young Patriots and other poor southern white migrants how to set up and maintain community service programs that benefited their community and thus a coalition between the groups was established setting the stage for the creation of the original Rainbow Coalition.”

2. Just prior to his assassination in 1968, Dr. Martin Luther King was putting the final touches on planning a multi-ethnic Poor People’s campaign (march and encampment) in Washington, DC.

In March of 1968, Dr. King met with “The first gathering of over fifty multiracial organizations that came together with SCLC to join the Poor People’s Campaign, took place in Atlanta, Georgia in March 1968. Key leaders and organizations at this session included: Tom Hayden of the Newark Community Union, Reis Tijerina of the Federal Alliance of New Mexico, John Lewis of the Southern Regional Council, Myles Horton of the Highlander Center, Appalachian volunteers from Kentucky, welfare rights activists, California farm workers, and organized tenants.”

According to the site of the current Poor People’s campaign,

“King emphasized the need for poor whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians, and Native Americans to unite. He asserted that the Poor People’s Campaign would only be successful if the poor could come together across all the obstacles and barriers set up to divide us…”

Right there with you on the movies. Your husband is absolutely correct about movies vs real life. But the thing about horror movies is they’re designed to scare us, artificially setting off all our autonomic responses to fear. Some people enjoy this as a cathartic release in a safe environment. I think with me, it overloads my system and I carry the fear response for too long after the movie’s over.

The weird thing is, the times I’ve been in the most danger in real life, I’ve never been afraid until after the threat has passed. I have no idea why I react so badly to scary movies and so calmly in life-or-death situations.

Thanks for the history Afrofem. I was aware of all these initiatives by MLK and FH. I would even say that’s probably the reason they were murdered. What’s not clear to me is the role played by poor Whites in the destruction of these initiatives. FH was murdered by a black police spy who infiltrated the BPP. MLK’s assassin appeared to be part of organized white supremacist groups. The BPP lost several members killed by people connected to Ron Karenga, the Black Nationalist who gave us Kwanzaa. The feud between BPP and US(Karenga’s group) was manipulated by the FBI as part of COINTELPRO. I would appreciate it if you’d go into more detail on the role played by “people from Peoria”, “cobras”, in this story.

I have similar reactions to emergency situations. My mind becomes clearer and sharper. I don’t succumb to panic at those points.

My husband has a keen appreciation for well done psychological horror. Yet he sits through more gruesome physical horror with equal relish.

When I see depictions of physical violence, I think of the consequences of that violence: shattered eardrums, long term back pain, migraines, loss of limbs, painful recuperations and stressed relationships.

If a torture scene comes up, I will walk out of the room. I have read so many accounts of people trying to put their lives back together after torture, that all I think about are the long term effects of that depiction of torture.

About the depictions of physical violence, torture, etc, do you have the same reaction for any movie or does it depend on the genre? The reason I ask is, although such scenes are always disturbing, I find that I can handle them better in serious films where the implications of such violence are explored.

@Herneith: For many years in the genre of horror films The Exorcist scared me the most. The demon’s voice done by the late Mercedes Mccambridge scared me and the makeup used on the girl. But I watch The Walking Dead today in 2016 in my dark living room and it doesn’t bother me. The zombies make the same gutteral sounds as the demon in film and the makeup is the same. I had to laugh at my silliness for being scared. They are about the same visually. The show on FOX is pretty good i like it.

I always wondered at these demonic stories. If I was a demon, I would come to earth and live in the lap of luxury, not roll around in my own bodily waste, projectile vomiting, spinning my head around with snot and pimples all over my face. The obscenities, maybe.

I am cynical and suspicious of those White “feel good” stories, especially ones involving the police. I consider them pro-police propaganda—–copaganda. A sub-genre of “White savior” propaganda that floods US media daily.

Red flags in the story for me included:

⚑smiling White cop in full uniform holding a baby (images of babies are used extensively in the US to sell everything from soap to automobiles).

⚑“I truly don’t even care who’s fault it is that young man was so scared to have a police officer at his window. Blame the media, blame bad cops, blame protestors, or Colin Kaepernick if you want. It doesn’t matter to me who’s to blame. I just wish somebody would fix it.”

Fascinating to me that this police officer is criticizing consequences (media coverage, anti-impunity protests and Colin Kaepernick (?) instead of causes ( a system of police impunity, extreme police violence and police militarization).

⚑“He wants to create a nonprofit whose goal is to establish change the way officers police”.

Hmmm. Do we really need another non-profit or do we need justice and sanity in public policy and enforcement?

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Copaganda is extremely pervasive in the US. The police have their own broadcast television channel. The majority of US television drama shows center around law enforcement agencies at the federal, state or local level. When a cop is injured or killed in America, the national media will refer to the police as “heroes” and call them “our police”. Just the other day a national news anchor lied on air and said that on-the-job death rate for cops has gone up fifty percent. The reality is just the opposite. According to Huffington Post:

“Data released by the FBI on Monday shows that 2015 was one of the safest years for U.S. law enforcement in recorded history, following a sustained trend of low numbers of on-duty deaths in recent decades. […]

The data contrasts with the claims from some conservative media outlets and police union bosses who have continued to peddle the narrative that officers are under siege. The past two years have seen a surge in police reform activism in the wake of Michael Brown’s death in Ferguson, Missouri, and other high-profile instances of police killing civilians. But critics of this movement allege that groups like Black Lives Matter promote violence against officers, and have helped wage a “war on cops.”

That misinformation may have contributed to a skewed public perception of the issue. In a 2015 Rasmussen poll, 58 percent of voters said they believed there was a “war on police” in the United States.

But the FBI’s data has repeatedly contradicted these claims.”

So I tend to think of articles like the one you shared as attempts to shift the narrative away from a corrupt system to a decent individual. Naked propaganda or copaganda in this case.

”I was curious about the collaboration with Blacks part of your comment, when was that on the agenda and who put it there?”

There have been many times over the course of this country’s history that White people could have collaborated with Black people in ways that would have been mutually beneficial. They chose not to because they thought White Privilege would shield them from some natural or human made scourge. Most of the time they just didn’t care about the lives of Black people.

There are at least four instances in the past thirty years that White people have chosen not to collaborate with Black people and the country as a whole has suffered as a result. They include:

The Drug War – White people account for 80 percent of drugs bought and sold in the US. Those numbers have stayed constant for decades. Yet, the corporate media has convinced many Americans that the nation’s drug problem has a Black face. From Reefer Madness in the 1930s to the Crack Epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, Black communities have borne the brunt of government attempts to regulate what people put in their own bodies.

The so-called Drug War has ushered in many anti-democratic changes to laws and enforcement practices: militarized police, harsh sentencing guidelines that abrogate the power and discretion of the judiciary branch and the growth of the Prison Industrial complex. At any point, White Americans could have shown compassion for Black addicts and their families, but instead cheered on the criminalization of entire communities.

Now, White America is in the grip of three simultaneous drug epidemics: Methamphetamines, Heroin and Opiates. Now they are wailing about “compassion for addicts and their families” and “treatment, not prison”. Result: Missed opportunities to add sanity to drug laws.

The 2000 Presidential Election – Bush was selected in the 2000 election through the use of various forms of organized chicanery. From rigged voting machines to altered voter rolls to physically blocking Black voters from accessing the polls, many of his methods ran roughshod over the rights of Black citizens.

When Black voters put up a hue and cry about voter abuse, the White owned media spent months pooh poohing those concerns. I remember months of editorial pages and letters to the editor dismissing the concerns of Black voters and their “imaginary” problems at the polls. They were labeled “sore losers”.

There were some White citizens who were also upset about the theft of the election, but they just couldn’t bring themselves to work with Black citizens to nip that problem in the bud. Result: Missed opportunities to reform the electoral system.

Bank Bailouts – The massive bank bailouts following the Financial Crash of 2008 infuriated the majority of ordinary Americans across racial and class lines. There were many national and local groups that tried to band together and pressure the government to end cash infusions to the banks, prosecute and imprison the highly placed thieves that crashed the system.

After the crash, the majority of White Americans simply hunkered down and looked the other way as numbers of Black people, Latinos, and low income White people slid off the edge of a financial cliff, into a chasm of joblessness and house evictions.

Now many Americans have joined the “precariat”———just one thin paycheck from homelessness. The bankers who crashed the system? They still wallow in million dollar bonuses. They also bribed Congress to make sure there wouldn’t be any nasty legal repercussions for their Wall Street casinos.

Result: Missed opportunities to reform the financial system.

Emergency Manager Laws in Michigan – After a generation of deindustrialization, the state government of Michigan ended revenue sharing with local municipalities, instead of raising taxes on the wealthiest Michiganders. This left many local towns and cities struggling to cover basic services.

Governor Rick Snyder and other Republicans decided that some “disaster capitalism” was just what Michigan needed. They passed an anti-democratic “Emergency Manager” law. To their credit, the people of Michigan pushed back with a statewide referendum overturning the law. However, lame duck Michigan legislators with nothing to lose overturned the will of the people by nullifying the results of the referendum.

Since 2011, it’s been dictatorship and hard(er) times for the blackest and poorest Michiganders since. Roughly 50 percent of all Black Michigan citizens are under “emergency management”. This is how Abagond describes the power of the emergency manager:

”An emergency manager is not elected. He answers only to the governor. He has the power to override the democratically elected city government, its laws and contracts (except with banks). He can do pretty much anything except miss a bond payment.”

Instead of continuing to fight against this affront to democracy, the White citizens of Michigan averted their eyes, leaving the Black citizens to struggle on their own. Collaboration would have made a tremendous difference in the lives of everyone in Michigan. Since it is overwhelmingly Black people affected (so far), White residents couldn’t care less.

Result: Missed opportunities to shore up democracy and prevent the ongoing Flint Water Crisis.

As far as I am concerned, all of these situations could have been avoided if the “people in Peoria” gave a care about other human beings————their fellow citizens, instead of being wrapped up in their White Privilege. They forget that we are all connected. Black people suffer today, White people suffer tomorrow. Working together could ameliorate a lot of that pain, both today and in the future.

Afrofem, it took you four days to come up with this list of grievances against an abstraction called White People with equally abstract White Privileges?
What your list shows is that Blacks and poor minority communities are the proverbial canaries in the US coalmine. The ills of the society are manifested first in their communities. Does it mean that Whites are immune as your talk of privilege would imply? No. Note that I’m not claiming that you’ve argued something so demonstrably false.
Speaking of coalmines, coal miners who are overwhelmingly white can hardly be called privileged since they are exposed to work related diseases when they are in demand and pushed aside when no longer needed. I’m disappointed by your comment because it doesn’t answer my question: “I was curious about the collaboration with Blacks part of your comment, when was that on the agenda and who put it there?” I expected you to write about Jesse Jackson’s run for president in 1988 and how the Peoria “cobras” sabotaged his campaign or some other political development like that. How about Wallace’s 1968 presidential campaign and how Nixon’s law and order program broke the South from the Democratic party, as LBJ predicted that Civil Rights legislation would? You haven’t told me anything new.
“As far as I am concerned, all of these situations could have been avoided if the “people in Peoria” gave a care about other human beings————their fellow citizens, instead of being wrapped up in their White Privilege.”
My dear, this is embarrassingly preachy. White working class people can’t stop their employers from hiring cheaper Asian labor or exporting jobs to Asia in the pursuit of higher profits, yet you expect them to do things that would benefit minorities?
“Roughly 50 percent of all Black Michigan citizens are under “emergency management”…Instead of continuing to fight against this affront to democracy, the White citizens of Michigan averted their eyes, leaving the Black citizens to struggle on their own. Collaboration would have made a tremendous difference in the lives of everyone in Michigan. Since it is overwhelmingly Black people affected (so far), White residents couldn’t care less.”
What has the Black political class done to distinguish itself in this struggle? Have Blacks thrown the rascals out and elected new leaders ready to fight? How come Blacks were more defiant when they had less power in the 1950-60s?
You dump all the blame on Whites and let off the Blacks who have worked hand in glove with Snyder. Does the name Kevyn Duane Orr mean anything to you? Is he an honorary white? Should we be “proud” that a “brother” was put in charge of squeezing the last nickel out of the city? Narrow racial thinking leads nowhere.

I’m surprised that anyone thinks any politician cares about the environment. Both parties take money from Big Oil. The entire Washington Establishment, (funded by the people) think The People are an impediment to their highest priorities. Talk about a disconnect!

It’s time for those “latte” environmentalists to follow McKibben’s summons and protest at banks, Army Corps of Engineers offices and North Dakota (brrrr) to stand with the Native Americans on the front lines.

@Afrofem
Regarding your assumption that Michiganders (of any colour) couldn’t care less about the Emergency Manager Laws and are looking the other way…

We actually cared enough to take the 1990 version to the ballot box and vote it down (which you stated, so thanks for noticing). Legislators then replaced it with something “different” but essentially the same in 2012 that’s more difficult to overturn. We have sued and lost… most recently in September where a FEDERAL appeals court upheld it. This will go all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. This is a NATIONAL issue now. Because if the rest of Americans continue to think of it as a Michigan problem, the Supreme Court will establish a precedent that allows even more consolidation of power at the State level. I’m not certain what the solution is when a City’s government fails it’s citizenry… but I haven’t seen where replacing inept and sometimes corrupt local officials with inept and often corrupt State officials is any improvement. So, OK, maybe this boils down to “Not all White people” whining… I don’t know… but I figured you may care that We The People are trying to work within the system. (yep, I know how lame that sounds).. we’re just getting beaten down at every turn. The story really is no different than what’s playing out all over the U.S. right now. Those in whom We The People have bestowed power have become too comfortable in their belief that we won’t take it back.

I was aware of the broad strokes of the Emergency Manager regime. Thanks for filling in the scary details. Especially the entry of the Supreme Court in this matter.

Your comment, “The story really is no different than what’s playing out all over the U.S. right now.” really hit home. Republicans in the Washington state senate recently gained a majority and they have been attempting to abrogate the power and autonomy of progressive counties and municipalities in the Western part of the state. They are wading in with heartless proposals against the homeless, workers pay and obstructing the democratic governor’s initiatives.

They seem to be pushing for a highly centralized Banana Republic style of government which makes it easier for the billionaires to control outcomes.

I really agree with your last sentence:

Those in whom We The People have bestowed power have become too comfortable in their belief that we won’t take it back.

To me, deep dish pizza is overkill but, I don’t like too thin a crust. I like to make my own pizzas. I usually make a medium thick, slightly sweet crust with loads of hot Italian sausage and artichokes.

Yep, with mayonnaise, onions and black pepper. As vomit inducing as it sounds. It was a lunch staple when I was a kid along with bologna and spam. Needless to say, I threw them out and begged the teachers for lunch money! Head cheese? My grandmother used to make that!

They were always accompanied by greens (turnip, mustard or collards), beans (great northern, pinto, crowder or blackeyed peas) and cornbread. There were also a variety of other vegetables in season on the table to fill out the meal.

My Northern husband always jokes that I grew up eating “the back ends of animals”.

The first fry bread I ever had was described as “Navajo fry bread” and I see from the Wiki page they have a strong claim to having invented it. However, it is similar to sopaipilla, so it may be a variation of that (plus it looks like the Spanish got the word and basic idea from the Arabs). Definitely a “fusion” food.

If you go to any powwow that is authentic and large enough to have food vendors, you should be able to find some. You can ask for Indian tacos without the meat, or you can just buy a piece of plain fry bread, which is good all by itself. Fry bread with honey and a light dusting of sugar is divine. Personally I think it is fluffier in texture than fairground fried dough, but that may depend entirely on individual recipes.

Spam is a big deal in certain parts of the Asian American community, especially if they’re from Hawaii, but also immigrants from countries like Korea and the Philippines where spam was a major protein supplement during and/or after WWII.

Since I try to purchase free range or pasture fed meats, those cheap meals of my childhood are too expensive to buy now. They take a lot of preparation time and my husband won’t touch those dishes with a ten foot pole. So they are not worth the time and effort for one.

I knew spam was big in Hawaii, but I didn’t know about the Korean Spam connection.

I’m not sure exactly which all Asian countries the spam phenomenon took place in, but definitely Korea and the PI. I’ve heard people go into raptures about “the perfect breakfast” of spam, kimchi, scrambled eggs, and leftover fried rice.

Then there was the time in California when some Filipino American students showed up at our door saying, “So-and-so’s mother sent him a balikbayan* box! We’ve got spam!!! Can we borrow your rice cooker?”

(*This term usually refers to a box of goodies sent from the U.S. to family members back in the PI, but they were using it more loosely to mean a care package from their California hometown.)

Not sure if this is what Afrofem was getting at, but personally I’ve found, whatever the cuisine, the visually artsy and fancily plated stuff never ever is anywhere as good as the ones where the cook didn’t care how it looked, just how it tasted.

Just finished partaking of melted extra-old cheddar cheese on bread (stone milled), slathered with vegan margarine(butter too cold)! If that doesn’t clog up the old arteries and colon, I don’t know what will. Discuss!

I just saw this trailer for a movie currently in the theaters about Mildred and Richard Loving and their Supreme Court case. I don’t remember if it has been mentioned anywhere on the blog earlier so will link to it here.

In light of Trump’s victory it appears the entire project will be going ahead, though. On a practical level opposition/protest against the pipeline will need to swell immensely, to seriously challenge the economic interests and climate change denial mentality at play.

A lot of people had reason to demonize Castro when he came into power. Then he did a lot of stuff that made him a villian in his own right. Though compared historically and globally, there are way worse. I don’t have particualry strong feelings towards him and his regime, but the Left’s infatuation with him is pretty disgusting.

Fidel Castro supported anti-colonial movements in Africa. His intervention in Angola was one of the many reasons why apartheid eventually fell in South Africa. Viva Fidel: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1iUe3NmMh8)

I was shocked by Fidel’s death and many expressed a hate for him, while others a love. I don’t know much about the man but if you can share why the demonization when I hear good things. What made him great to you?

We are now being advised about Cuba by people who have supported the apartheid regime these last 40 years,” he said on a visit to Havana in 1991. “No honorable man or woman could ever accept advice from people who never cared for us at the most difficult times.”

The truth in this speak volumes. We are always taught that those who fight the tyranny of western governments are evil or wrong. Yet we don’t questions the legitimacy of their statements. I often wondered this about Osama bin laden. Was he bad or was he trying to fight the united states back for what they were doing to his people.

I think we can find the answer only in what they fought for, not what they fought against. Especially if they came into power and the system they created was worse (for the average person) than the system before, we can judge them.

If you can celebrate the mass murderer Napoleon with impunity despite his misdeeds all over the world. Let me celebrate Fidel Castro who helped chase away murderous colonialists who raped the continent of Africa for centuries. The USA was flying around Cuba like the vulture it is waiting for the right moment to pounce but Fidel never gave up. They pushed him to the wall and their assassination attempts made him paranoid.
With the limited resources he had he helped educated our doctors and engineers while at the same time giving his people free education and good healthcare. VIVA FIDEL

I saw your long post on programming #30. Wanted to reach out and ask you how you are doing? I am truly sorry such hateful things were said to you.

There were some things you said that rang so true for me that it was deafening. As I get older I too have become less sympathetic towards whites. It started as a indifferent feeling and to be honest it still it. Though the more I interact with them online (solitaire has been an exception) the more I realize that I don’t care for their lies. They are draining. Like dealing with a borderline personality disorder patient who abuses you over and over again yet wants you to love them always.

“Especially if they came into power and the system they created was worse (for the average person) than the system before, we can judge them.”—True, but what constitutes worse? In many of the articles I have read, thanks to villagewriter and other sites, Batista had plans on only making Cuba good for white-skinned Cubans. Allowing them to oppress the dark skinned Cubans and Fidel stepped in to stop that. Plus if the western countries cut off trade, because of their hate of Fidel, then how are they to make Cuba better or more fruitful?

“With the limited resources he had he helped educated our doctors and engineers while at the same time giving his people free education and good healthcare. VIVA FIDEL”

I so agree! Many Americans would kill for free education and excellent Cuban healthcare. The infant mortality rate for Cuba (4.50 per 1,000 births) is below that of Canada (4.60 per 1,000 births) and the USA (5.80 per 1,000 births).

I judge the “better or worse” in regards to the general life chances of the average person living under the regime. That the situation worsened for the elite doesn’t count of course. By general life chances I mean how much one’s ability to better one’s situaion is impeded by economic, political and social hurdles. The more control an indiviual has over his won life, the better. Of course improvement in one area cannot forever counterweigh lack in others.

I know too little about Cuba to assess the situation specifically. But my gerneral perception is that for most Cubans’ life chances improved after the regime change. Of course after sixty years of rule the former regime can’t be the standard of comparison anymore. The embargo certainly hindered the regimes chances to impove the standard of living, but it doesn’t excuse the denial of political freedom. That wouldn’t cost anything.

“The Cubans were even willing to send doctors to the US Gulf Coast after Hurricane Katrina, but were rebuffed by Bush.”

They probably knew he was going to embarrass the US government because the Cuban doctors would have been extremely efficient. Cuba sent doctors to Ebola stricken areas in West Africa while the WHO was still debating on how to intervene and America was panicking. Fidel was a real man; he was the man.

Just got home from the store, where I saw this article on the newsstand:

“A first-of-its-kind investigation by USA TODAY shows that black people across the nation – both innocent bystanders and those fleeing the police – have been killed in police chases at a rate nearly three times higher than everyone else.”

Most afro-cubans that have commented on threads seem to be okay with Fidel as a leader. They say good things not bad. Those that say bad are usually those “white passing” Cubans. So I am curious on what life is like in Cuba. Was it as bad or are we just told it was that bad.

Most Americans measure the good or bad based on the idea that many Cubans swam over here. However, that could be based on opportunity alone.

So I read actor, George Takei, tweeted there was an uproar of a Black Santa being hired in the Mall Of America. And in the internment camp, the Santa was Asian. Really? White people get bent out of shape over what colour Santa is? Psst. Just a sidenote. Santa isn’t real. 😉

Will future African American’s (2025-2050) be told to get-over the history of police brutality and all the negative things that will happen because of the election of trump? Will future black people in Netherlands be told to get over the history of black pete? Will they sing Kumbaya again?

A people that celebrate sociopathy and psychopathy will never see anything wrong with oppressing other people who don’t look like them. I think that racists could wipe out an entire population and still go back home and sleep like babies because their bible tells them they are gods, they are righteous and the others are Amalekites should be dispossessed and their wives raped and their children enslaved.

Has anyone read Joseph Allen Hill’s “The Venus Effect”? It’s a gripping piece that interposes the pervasive omnipresence of police brutality with classic SFF scenarios. No matter what Apollo does (or doesn’t do), there’s no escaping the Grim Reaper who happens to wear a police uniform.

Unless he’s white, of course. That probably explains why 99.9 percent of SFF protagonists are white or assumed white. White guys and gals aren’t hunted by the police like prey.

@ villagewriter

Will future African American’s (2025-2050) be told to get-over the history of police brutality and all the negative things that will happen because of the election of trump? Will future black people in Netherlands be told to get over the history of black pete? Will they sing Kumbaya again?

I know this is a bit morose, but in light of the above, it makes you wonder why more black Americans haven’t taken the lessons showcased by Modesto Brocos to heart.

I also suspect it was a direct salvo in the ongoing war about the future of science fiction. One of the main arguments of the (mostly white male) Sad Puppies contingent is that modern science fiction has lost the sense of wonder, the fun, the adventure, the excitement of Golden Age SF as it has become more socially conscious and more inclusive. In this multi-layered work, it seemed to me that Joseph Allen Hill was demonstrating exactly why black SF authors don’t usually write those types of carefree adventure stories of pure escapism.

Everyday is a blessing in life and every friend a reminder that humanity isn’t lost. Some good friends have passed these recent years but their memories remain etched in my mind and I visit them in their dreams. I have learned that the fragility of life can be held together firmly in the moment. And that every moment rooted in peace and love nurtures the earth beneath my feet and the humanity that walks upon it.

I just scanned your reading list this AM. I’m familiar with the last three authors and read Parable of the Sower. I’m going to force myself to finish Parable of the Talents by Octavia Butler. I put that sequel down years ago because it was so intense; a nightmarish, dystopian view of America’s future. It seems that future is now possible and Butler’s work might help make sense of it all.

I hope some of your impressions gleaned from those five books end up as future posts.

Abagond, I’ve been reading your entries on writing, your style guide, differing forms of English, and the like over the past couple of weeks. They’ve made me reconsider my own way of writing and how I approach the crafting of my thoughts. But there is one specific subject that, unless I’ve missed something, you have yet to cover in one of these entries: contractions.

What, if anything, do you have to say on the usage (or avoidance) of contractions in writing?

“One of the main arguments of the (mostly white male) Sad Puppies contingent is that modern science fiction has lost the sense of wonder, the fun, the adventure, the excitement of Golden Age SF as it has become more socially conscious and more inclusive. In this multi-layered work, it seemed to me that Joseph Allen Hill was demonstrating exactly why black SF authors don’t usually write those types of carefree adventure stories of pure escapism.”

I suppose some individual Sad Puppies would be cool with that. But consider that another one of their main arguments is that they cannot identify with protagonists who are female, people of color, queer, and/or trans. Presumably many of them would only be cool with a POC author writing a Golden Age-esque fun adventure story if the protagonist was not also POC, because otherwise the Sad Puppies could not “relate” to the main character.

The Sad Puppies also complain bitterly that too many of SF’s top awards are going to POC, LGBT, and women, and they recently rigged the Hugo Awards to get demographic results they preferred. Considering that, I don’t think they’ll be appeased even if all the non-white non-straight non-male writers began publishing only fun adventure stories.

Incidentally, I believe that in The Venus Effect Joseph Allen Hill directly addressed the Sad Puppies’ argument about relating to the main character: “That Apollo was a big phony, totally unbelievable. Guys like that went out of style with Flash Gordon and bell-bottoms. It’s not just about liking the protagonist. You have to be able to relate to them, right? I think that’s how it works. That’s what everybody says, anyway. To be honest, I don’t really get the whole “relatability” thing. Isn’t the point of reading to subsume one’s own experience for the experience of another, to crawl out of one’s body and into a stranger’s thoughts? Why would you want to read about someone just like you? Stories are windows, not mirrors. Everybody’s human. Shouldn’t that make them relatable enough?”

Delany can be a highly challenging author to read, especially some of the longer works. I’ve found his short stories generally to be more accessible. Most of them are collected in the following anthology:

You may already know this, but besides the challenges he faced being African American and gay, Delany is also severely dyslexic. Although I think today his condition would be diagnosed as dysgraphia; if I remember correctly, he has no problems reading but with writing. He has trouble deciphering his own first drafts because not only is his spelling bad, but sometimes he writes an entirely different and unrelated word from the one he intends.

In writing I avoid them except in quoted speech and where it would sound awkward not to use it (like in “Would not you say that?”). I use cannot instead of can’t. The contractions most people use did not become common in printed English till the 1800s. In general, they are not necessary.

No Longer Quivering which bills itself as “a gathering place for women escaping and recovering from spiritual abuse”, is a blog critical of the Quiverfull Movement, an extreme patriarchal Christian group in the US.

We will be hearing more from groups like Quiverfull during the Trump/Pence years.

Oops, I hope it didn’t sound like I was implying Delany is a challenging author due to his learning disability. It’s because he’s really f-ing smart and (for example) started integrating his interests in academic areas like linguistics into his novels. I do think the short stories are the best place to start, and his earliest novels are also easier reading than some of his denser work later. Those are all interesting, too, but he really makes the reader work to keep up with him.

Folks, I need your advice! I am a first-time driver(failed my first test on Tuesday) However if you fall off a bike you get back on. I intend to keep trying until I get my license! My request to you is this, any suggestions as to a car for a first-time buyer? I ran my car up on a snow bank trying to parallel park and had a hard time getting out. I wanted to desperately laugh but had to rein myself in. I was nervous and excited at the same time! Thanks in advance!

If snow and ice are in issue then look for an all wheel drive vehicle like a Subaru. It is less likely that you would get stuck as the car senses when you get stuck or slide. AWD cars have sensors that measure traction for each tire and has differnt differentials in the transmissin that kick in to split the traction between both the front and rear tires to help better control the car. It’s simular to four wheel drive except that you don’t have to manually put the vehicle into four wheel drive.

I second Afrofem’s suggestion. Small cars are much easier to handle and maneuver when you’re a beginning driver. Parallel parking in particular is easier if the car is small.

I failed my first two tests, you’re not alone! If you can postpone your next test until better weather, please do so. You will make it easier on yourself if you take the test when the driving conditions are good (no snow or ice on the ground, not when it’s raining).

Thanks for your advice, Afrofem, Soltaire, and Baker. I test drove a Kia Soul at the dealership last evening. It drove like a dream! Had I had this vehicle at the test, I would have passed the test with flying colours! The difference between the Soul and that sh^t box Corolla was like night and day! I was trained on the Corolla. Anyhow, here’s to the next test!

“I test drove a Kia Soul at the dealership last evening. It drove like a dream! Had I had this vehicle at the test, I would have passed the test with flying colours! The difference between the Soul and that sh^t box Corolla was like night and day! I was trained on the Corolla. Anyhow, here’s to the next test!”

Follow your instincts! You WILL get your driver’s license. Enjoy the process… later on driving won’t seem as much fun, or challenging. It’ll become mundane. Enjoy practicing and learning … the more you do it, the better driver you’ll become. 🙂

I had mentioned on another thread that I was re-doing my bathroom. It was just finished so last night we decided to enjoy our glorious new shower. The problem was there didn’t seem to be enough water pressure and the water wouldn’t get real hot. So I turned up the water heater and tried it again this morning. Still no hot water. Turns out that the plumbing and valves for the new shower are California energy compliment so the hardware has been designed not to allow scalding water and limits the water pressure. I now have to figure out a work around so I can get me fire hose water pressure and scalding water back. lol

“Still no hot water. Turns out that the plumbing and valves for the new shower are California energy compliment so the hardware has been designed not to allow scalding water and limits the water pressure.”

Are there no (instant) Hot Water On Demand systems permitted in California? Or is that not energy compliant enough for your state??

Isn’t there a budding water shortage/crisis going on in Cali??

If I were considering relocating to some other locale in the states as much as I like warm weather and sunshine Cali would be the first location scratched off my list of possibilities.

“I had mentioned on another thread that I was re-doing my bathroom. It was just finished so last night we decided to enjoy our glorious new shower. The problem was there didn’t seem to be enough water pressure and the water wouldn’t get real hot. So I turned up the water heater and tried it again this morning. Still no hot water. Turns out that the plumbing and valves for the new shower are California energy compliment so the hardware has been designed not to allow scalding water and limits the water pressure. I now have to figure out a work around so I can get me fire hose water pressure and scalding water back. lol”

that is not california, tht is a worldwide standard. largely due to the fact that the EU requires it, so manufacturers have made them all compliant to the EU standard to facilitate production. it is for electric showers. electric showers are not heated by the boiler system, but by the actual unit underneath the shower which plugs in to a regular plug. that has advantages as it means that it is not possible to “run out” of hot water. e.g. running a hot tap in the kitchen no longer causes hot water in the shower to run out.

the disadvantage is tht it becomes very easy for the water to reach boiling point. at which point, it could severely scald individuals. such as children. boiling water can cause serious burns. when the electric shower detects too-high a temperature, it automatically switches off. it could be that the unit inside the actual shower is faulty.

but most likely, you have the wrong fuse in your plug. you need a 5A fuse (not a 13A fuse, which are far more common in everyday appliances).

Isn’t it weird that a white woman can lie on a boy, get him killed, have the murderers get off, and everybody can just go about their business for 60 years? “Hey, I lied and got a kid killed, sorry ’bout that, now I’m going to go back to my life that I’ve been living.” Doesn’t this show a really strange and disturbing side of white folks that stuff like this can happen? Or am I simply insane? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…/emmett-tills-accuser-admits…&amp;

You could have done what thousands of progressive New Englanders were doing: rooting for the Pats but donating to a charity or political cause every time they scored or whatever. It’s easy to do with all those ActBlue sites (headquartered in MA!)

This is somewhat late but I just saw it today — for anyone who is interested, in December, Fantasy magazine did a special issue called “People of Colo(u)r Destroy Fantasy!” It is on the same order as the special POC issues by Lightspeed and Nightmare magazines earlier in the year, with both free and pay-to-view content, including fiction, essays, and authors’ roundtable.

Fantasy was folded into Lightspeed a few years back and is pretty much a defunct website now except for the special Destroy! issues (to date: POC, women, queers).

I saw “Hidden Figures” last night, and I got a pretty strong “White Savior” vibe from it. Not that there was a single character playing the role of the white savior, but it still was reflecting a white liberal belief that through the actions and considerations of sympathetic whites, blacks overcame their obstacles in the 1960s (and this happened and was somehow fixed 50 years ago).

^ there were many white saviour characters in the film, but no single one. For example, the judge was also a saviour. The white school board in West Virginia were saviours. The policeman in the opening highway scene was a bit of a saviour. Even John Glenn was one of the saviours.

ie, things improved due to the collective behaviour of sympathetic or recently enlightened whites (who remain that way after their epiphany).

This is how I spent my Sunday. Rain storms hit L.A. hard and a few trees came down. This is a large Elepo pine that fell over on a home. We spent Saterday clearing it off the roof and went back Sunday to get the rest of the tree down. The tree snapped at the base so the entire weight of the tree is on the home. The home was red tagged until we could get the tree off the home.

I enjoyed Hidden Figures and then i read that the scene where Kevin Costner destroyed the white only sign over the ladies bathroom didn’t happen. I suppose they want to throw the white savior character in so that whites won’t look like the monsters that many of them were back then. There is always some whitewashing done.

I am happy for the black actors and actresses nominated for Oscars and SAG and all the other accolades. I have especially enjoyed Mahershala Ali in Netflix’s Luke Cage as the villain Cottonmouth and his role in Hidden Figures and House of Cards. I haven’t seen Moonlight yet and I need to see Fences.

Watched Moonlight on Saturday morning it was well done great acting. Hope Mahershala Ali wins an Oscar i need to see Fences although i am familiar with the play because i took a couple of courses in theater and drama. And read some of August Wilson’s plays. Hope Viola and Denzel win a little gold man. I have to check out I Am Not Your Negro.

Funny… I always thought Alpha females were… ya know, those special females who thrive when it comes to shopping – watching for marriage opportunities with a well to-do older gent with one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel all while taking the reins in female-led relationships.

Seems like as close to perfection as anyone can get. {{swoon ..}}
LOL
😀

“… I will have a loaf of brown soda bread with a platter of cockles …”

Whenever I’m in my service to others mode it’s *ALWAYS to females – which explains in a large way why YOU wish to be included. Get in where you fit …. though I suspect that the female/gay/hetero/bi/irish/leprechaun communities are about as interested in you as the Black community here is) not that any group’s lack of interest in you is enough to deter you from your dire pitiful need for self-abasement, self-humiliation and self-embarrassment.

In the meantime, I suggest you continue to munch on the dense loaf of brown soda FEET that you apparently keep stuffed in your oversized toothless mouth. I don’t feed trolls. Not even the fatally confused ones

“Watch out or you might find a few unpalatable orders directed your way!”

Can’t you see that Abagond is protecting him from me (I am ALL things unpalatable to this super-genius)!!

I get banned or tossed into moderation HELL while he’s free to hurl (unanswered) every weak-azz insult that comes into his pathetic puny brain.

I think Abagond wants me to go away.

I think I shall oblige him. I’m not one for remaining where I’m not wanted, and where the host needs to like his own comments because hardly anyone else will, except his own personal darling white racist troll.

Finally saw Moonlight today and so many of the scenes and cinematography look like they come directly out of the playbook of HK director Wong Kar-wai, eg, Days of Being Wild (1990), Chungking Express (1994), Happy Together (1997) and In the Mood for Love (2000), particularly the latter two. In fact, one of the songs played in Moonlight (in Spanish) is the same exact song used in the opening scene of Happy Together showing Iguassu Falls in Argentina.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed it, particularly because I was just in Miami this past October as well as took a ride through my old neighborhood in Anacostia, SE, DC, but the lasting impression I got from it was how much it copied from Wong Kar-wai’s style. And Wong Kar-wai has directed a number of very great films.

And I am glad this film won the Oscar for Best Picture as I found LaLa land a bit meh.

The following article explores this idea and includes a Youtube clip that shows a montage between Moonlight and the two latter films mentioned above.

As we can see, abagond continues to allow his favourite racist commenter and campaign colleague free reign to launch “ad hominem attacks” and “name calling”.

We all know you share more qualities with Hitler than any regular commenter. And since you mention his name and “Nazi” far more than anyone else, we all can see clearly have a little fetish or obsession with him.

“I supported Bernie Sanders. The most progressive candidate in last year’s election. My personal hero. Not some racist right-wing nut.”

So what? Someone can support Bernie Sanders and still be racist.

“If you’re not with me, you’re with Trump.”

Only two choices, eh? Nah, I think I’ve got more options than that.

“Are you going to abet fascism”

Reminding you of your failings equals fascism??!!

“or are we, as progressives, going to stand together, in the words of my hero?”

The best thing to come out of my dealings with you over the last year is I now understand much, much better — vastly, infinitely better — why so many POC dislike and mistrust white liberals/progressives. It’s been instructive, to say the least.

You and I have had some points of agreement at times on this blog. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with you about everything. I don’t have to “stand with” you in order to be a progressive. You don’t get to define what that means for me.

“The only thing worse than a Trump troll like Fan… is someone who stands by and does nothing to combat these forces of right-wing evil.”

I don’t think Fan is a Trump troll or a force of right-wing evil. He’s been riding your ass lately, but you’ve earned it.

“Are we going to become completely like Germany in 1933, or are we going to save democracy?”

Oh, spare me the hyperbole. You’re not going to “save democracy” through your flame war with Fan, and you’re definitely not going to enlist me in your little battle.

No surprise to see abagond’s racist troll and Hitler worshipper lord of mirkwood aka xpraetorius hypocritically crying about others spreading conspiracy theories, with no proof, but spreading conspiracy theories of his own.

But we can only expect hypocrisy from a racist Bernie groupie who sold out and campaigned for Bernie’s chief opponent.

You misunderstand me. I proudly call myself a progressive. You don’t get to define what that means to me. You don’t get to make a rule that I can’t be a progressive if I don’t “stand together” with you in your little flame war.

“Abagond’s already written about Russian trolls. This is exactly what they do! Open your eyes! They come onto Internet communities that oppose fascist agendas and poison the well by trying to sow discord between progressives.”

The discord between you and me has nothing to do with Russia. It has everything to do with your racist behavior and industrial-strength blinders. No Russian troll has sowed this discord between us — it’s been present for more than a year, evident within just a few days after I first began commenting here.

“Don’t you see how nomad promotes Russian state propaganda RT? How these people bend over backwards to excuse everything Russia does? I know you see it, because you’ve called nomad out on it recently!”

I don’t think Nomad is a Russian troll. I think he has soured on the U.S. for good reason. I think he is looking at Russia through rose-colored glasses, but that doesn’t make him a Russian or a troll or a neo-N@zi.

Do you have any idea how offensive it is for you to be throwing around the term neo-N@zi at people of color?

“So no, I do not think that it’s crazy to say that standing up to Fan … could constitute saving democracy”

Interesting how “standing up to Fan for democracy” dovetails with his criticism of your racist behavior.

“These neo-N@zi trolls, those reincarnations of Goebbels, they’re messing with you! I’ve studied history and political science extensively. I know exactly how this works. Strongmen make their opponents weak and confused and doubt themselves.”

Get a grip! This is a website! Just one tiny corner of the huge internet where some of us come to engage in discussion. The fate of the world does not hinge on your winning arguments here (or your running Fan and Taotesan off this site, which believe me, has not gone unnoticed).

And the fact that Abagond has to resort to protecting his racist white Irish supremacist named scribh aka lord of mirkwood aka xpraetorius and using his moderation powers to exact revenge on commenters who bring up facts abagond doesn’t want to hear just shows abagond’s deceit and intellectual weakness.

Oh please. Lord of Mirkwood is the whole reason I had to add French curse words to the list of moderated words. As to the “oui” in your example, it hardly requires translation, no more than, say, “numero uno” – quite unlike your little dig.

LOL, abagond. I don’t insult anyone who doesn’t insult me FIRST, including you. And as you know, me pointing out your unfair enforcement of the comment policy, deceit and hypocrisy are 100% backed up by appropriate examples of your unfair enforcement of the comment policy, deceit and hypocrisy….and propaganda.

“You seem to have made your choice, but I must admit to some frustration that you cannot seem to see the severity of the crisis liberals and progressives all over the world are facing.”

Do not get all sanctimonious on me, child. I was fighting the good fight while you were still in diapers. I am well aware of the crisis. I see no great danger in the free exchange of ideas on Abagond’s blog. If there truly are Russian trolls here who hope to sway my beliefs or cast doubt in my mind, they’ll have to work a good sight harder than anything that’s passed so far.

I’m going to say it one more time, so listen up: my issue with you has nothing to do with Russia, Trump, or Sanders. Those are actually all points where we have been in substantial (not absolute) agreement. But that agreement does not make us best buddies, and it definitely does not mean I will turn a blind eye to your racist treatment of certain individuals, including but not limited to Fan.

“If you ever reconsider, my door is always open.”

Bundle up warm, son, so you don’t catch your death of cold standing in the draft.

Do you realize people here are not prejudiced against the Irish per se? It gets directed at you and you only. Why is that? I’ve mentioned a few times that I also have Irish (and other Celtic) heritage, yet not once has anyone thrown a slur my way. Why is that? If I remember correctly, Michael Jon Barker and v8driver have also mentioned their Irish (and/or Scottish?) heritage and no one has yet to call them a leprechaun. Why is that?

“I pushed back vigorously”

You should be apologizing for your missteps and working to correct your behavior instead of pushing back.

“I’ve extensively apologized for it, twice.”

You had to be pushed to do so by myself and other people, both times. First you made a faux apology that was really just a half-@ssed explanation. You then dug in your heels and strongly resisted making a true apology for quite some time before finally offering what was in its wording a real apology but which lost much of its meaning because of how late it came and how much you had to be prodded to reach the point of actually apologizing. Not very long after this, you disparaged Taotesan’s intelligence (along with Herneith and Sharina) for no other apparent reason than trying to impress a French racist troll.

What you said was so bad that even if you had immediately apologized profusely on your own accord, Taotesan would be well within her rights not to accept your apology. Compounded with your reluctance to admit your wrong-doing, I don’t know that there is any possible way you can make amends. But to truly make amends, you would have to do significantly more than what you have so far. To start with, you could stop disparaging Taotesan every few days. Just leave her alone already.

You’re really lucky Abagond dropped the ball on that one. You should have at the very least been thrown into auto-moderation, if not temporarily or permanently banned.

“I think that in recent months, I have actually exercised remarkable restraint with both of these individuals. I take breaks from commenting for weeks at a time to cool down when I cannot take the abuse any longer.”

Stop fooling yourself. You get quite a number of kicks in yourself. You reap what you sow.

“It would be very easy for me to go full Mr. Hyde”

If it’s easy for you, perhaps you should consider that a personal failing. It would not be easy for me to get to the point of saying what you did to Taotesan. Maybe you should take several hours between reading a comment to/about you and responding to it, so that you don’t fly off the handle in a white heat and say abusive things.

“You happen to have caught me in a good mood today…. So I’m not inclined to slam you.”

“There is a network of right-wing trolls on this blog pushing Trumpism on us!”

Even if that is in fact true, so what? They aren’t going to convert me to Trumpism, they aren’t going to sow doubt and confusion in my mind. Are you wavering? I’m not. Let them roar.

“If you think Fan is such a saint”

I never said Fan is a saint, did I? Cut it out with the hyperbole. I’ve noticed the snipes he’s been taking at me and Afrofem with regards to you, but so far I’ve kept my mouth shut about that — even though the particular metaphor he’s been employing touches on an area of great personal pain for me. Unlike you, I don’t flail my fists around wildly at every slight, real or imagined.

“how do you explain why he never bothers to engage the Trump regime on its own (de)merits, instead deflecting to Obama and Hillary over, and over, and over? Either he is shilling for Donald Trump or he is massively, massively confused!”

I can think of at least two other options. Fan may be exactly what he represents himself to be, someone who is highly skeptical of the political process, thinks it’s all a farce, and is disgusted by what he sees at the hypocrisy of those who are more critical of Trump than they were of Obama. Or this may be his way of psychologically minimizing the threat that Trump presents, a coping measure and a defense mechanism. There are probably other possibilities but I’m not going to spend more thought on that right now. Suffice it to say that it’s not the either/or scenario you presented.

“then I get to call out anti-Semitism wherever I see it. You do not get to tell me to acquiesce to that neo-N@zi crap – yes, I said it – because of melanin levels in said fascist. I’ll also call out what I see as examples of neo-N@zism wherever I see them.”

You’ve criticized Israel in the past and stated your belief that such criticism does not equate to anti-Semitism. Likewise, if someone points out that rich Jewish families have exploited the diamond trade in South Africa or that Jewish merchants were involved in the trans-Atlantic African slave trade, that does not necessarily equate to anti-Semitism. And if you do feel the need to call out something you believe is anti-Semitic, you can do so without flinging out labels like neo-N@zi and fascist.

“The world is no longer safe…. Racial separatists and anti-Semites of any color are all part of the same piece – a plot stretching across the world, a plot to put up barriers between human beings and throw hate into love’s rightful place…. I must fight. I have to stand up. Because, evidently, you won’t.”

You can choose to fade into the white background any time you wish. I’m not saying that you will, BUT you have that option. If the worst comes to pass and Trump moves to create the white separatist nation that people like Richard Spencer desire, you can make a choice whether to fight or whether to hide. Your skin color gives you that out.

Abagond doesn’t have that out. Nomad doesn’t have that out. Fan doesn’t have that out. Afrofem doesn’t have that out. Brothawolf doesn’t have that out. Mack Lyons doesn’t have that out. Mbeti doesn’t have that out. If Trump starts rounding up African Americans to ship them “back to Africa,” you won’t have to worry about yourself or your family or your girlfriend. They, however, will all be on the front lines whether they want to or not. Sharina is in a double bind since her husband is also Hispanic. What happens if Trump decides to send her husband “back to Mexico” and to send her somewhere in Africa? What happens to their children?

Can you not see how it is offensive for you to position yourself as the sole righteous warrior against Trump compared to them? Your life and your liberty are not on the line.

“If they start going after dissidents, my name will be on the list. I’m in it now, deep in it, and probably the only way to get out is to hop the border.”

Oh yeah, your name is going to be way up on the list, right up there with the POC who organized the women’s march, the BLM activists, the Natives who put their bodies in front of bulldozers to stop the pipeline. Yep, you’ve sent some nasty e-mails, Trump’s brownshirts are going to be knocking on your door any day now. /s

This is a waste of my time. Spin your little fantasies all you want of being the white savior and resistance fighter. Bet it makes you feel all warm and tingly inside.

Folks, scribh is valuable in that you get an in depth as to how supposed ‘white liberal’ thinks, albeit in a long winded manner. Their motto is to deflect, deflect, deflect. Ignore him. He will eventually get tired of spewing his garbage if he gets no responses. Liberal or conservative, it’s two sides of the same coin, white supremacy.

Moving forward I’ll try to spell your name with a capital “P”. I know how sensitive you racist trolls are about these things. One time I referred to your organisation with lowercase “k”s and all hell broke loose.

Never Liked the term ‘white privilege’. I prefer ‘white supremacy’. White privileges are meaningless, much like the word racist. Anyone and everyone can use it, in effect, obfuscating systemic and institutional white supremacy.

“I now see very vividly the way in which the Trump Era has made hysterical people no longer beholden to facts, reason, or common sense.”

That must be why the racist troll called scrib aka lord of mirkwood aka xpraetorius wrote several long-winded posts full of unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. After all, misinformation is the cornerstone of his klandestine organisation.

@AGM
A little advice. Don’t argue so much. Try being more self aware. There is a reason for what other commenters are saying but you have to be willing to understand their point of view. And hers a big clue, if you spend more time fighting to prove you aren’t something, then maybe you are. If it isn’t true, let it go and move on to a more important issue.

The racist white Irish supremacist troll foolishly thinks changing his name twice, being a Bernie groupie, kissing abagond’s rear and actively campaigning for the DNC’s candidate makes anyone think he’s any less of a bigot than he’s shown himself to be.

Unfortunately for him, no one has forgotten his long history of racist comments and behaviour on this blog, which are still there for all to see under all three of his aliases: scribh…, lord of mirkwood and xpraetorius.

A few more tears, and abagond will be here in no time with the Kleenex

“Nothing to say about the anti-Semitism issue? You’re just going to ignore those two gigantic paragraphs?”

I was thinking it over and calming down. Sometimes I do that.

Jews are a group that have both been the oppressed and the oppressors. They haven’t just been the oppressors in Israel, either. In South Africa, they have played a leading role in the blood diamond industry, among other precious gems and metals. The South African apartheid government was in collusion with Israel. And so on.

Taotesan, being from South Africa and having lived under apartheid, has direct reason to consider Jews an oppressive group, just as she has direct reason to consider whites an oppressive group. I think the word “Jewish” comes up a lot in her comments because she is ranting about the oppression that Jews have subjected onto her people.

You have ranted here extensively about the English because of their oppression of the Irish. At times someone reading your rants could easily surmise that you hold a murderous hatred towards all English people across the board and would be flabbergasted to find out that you are part English and (at least as far as literature is concerned) consider yourself an Anglophile.

I live with someone who regularly rants about how horrible white people are. I don’t take it personally. I understand there’s an implied “not all whites.”

I haven’t been able to fully figure out Taotesan’s views on the Jewish people yet, but that’s my take on it so far. Not so much anti-Semitism as saying “get your foot off my neck.”

“Independent research on beads collected from New Orleans parades has found toxic levels of lead, bromine, arsenic, phthalate plasticizers, halogens, cadmium, chromium, mercury and chlorine on and inside the beads. It’s estimated that up to 920,000 pounds of mixed chlorinated and brominated flame retardants were in the beads.”

That’s what happens when our government allows businesses to build factories overseas in countries with no environmental or safety regulations. Do you remember a few years ago the reports of toxic material and medical waste being used in the stuffing for teddy bears?

I live with someone who regularly rants about how horrible white people are. I don’t take it personally. I understand there’s an implied “not all whites.”

But the “not all Jews” is never implied. Nobody has yet seriously tried to form criticsim of some Whites into an anti-White racist ideology. When the critics of Israel/some Jews sound exactly like the open Neo-Nazis, the suspicion they might be anti-semites, too, is pretty reasonable.

Taotesan, being from South Africa and having lived under apartheid, has direct reason to consider Jews an oppressive group, just as she has direct reason to consider whites an oppressive group. I think the word “Jewish” comes up a lot in her comments because she is ranting about the oppression that Jews have subjected onto her people.

As far as I understand it Jews took part in the oppression of South African non-Whites as Whites and not as Jews (different from the oppression of Arabs in Israel). So to address them as Jews seems no less anti-semitic than addressing the oppression of the working class by the bourgeoisie in late 19th century Europe as “It’s the Jews”, just because some of the capitalists are Jewish.

Uh, implied means it’s not stated or written out. So how can you say for sure that the implication wasn’t there?

A lot of times, people jump to the conclusion that “all” is meant when it isn’t. For example, Abagond recently did a post about white liberals where he didn’t specifically state that it wasn’t meant as a blanket statement about all white liberals, but he ended up having to add such a statement because so many people (including LoM/ASG-M) got their knickers in a knot about it.

Now I get the impression that you’re playing stupid to derail the arguement, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt because you haven’t struck me as a troll so far.

So for clarification: One can only imply something if there is the reasonable expectation that the receiver would understand it as such. Otherwise the communication fails. But one cannot reasonably expect that the receiver will automatically add a “not ALL Jews” because anti-Jew statements are very often not qualified in such a way. They are just anti-semitic. So the burden to prove the non-anti-semitism is on the one who makes the anti-Jew statement.

All that is not true for anti-White statements. Here the “not ALL Whites” is very common and expected. To clarify that the statement is not part of a general anti-White racist ideology is unneccessary.

“Now I get the impression that you’re playing stupid to derail the arguement”

That’s not a tactic I use. If I come off as playing dumb, it is either a failure to communicate my point clearly or actual stupidity on my part.

“One can only imply something if there is the reasonable expectation that the receiver would understand it as such.”

That would be a definition of successful implication. People quite often believe something is understood only to discover the receiver did not understand it as such. That was the whole point of the examples I gave ASG-M about rants, including the ones he himself indulges in regarding the English.

The only person who can tell us exactly how she intended her remarks to be taken is Taotesan. The rest of us are just guessing.

“But one cannot reasonably expect that the receiver will automatically add a “not ALL Jews” because anti-Jew statements are very often not qualified in such a way. They are just anti-semitic. So the burden to prove the non-anti-semitism is on the one who makes the anti-Jew statement.”

I see no difference between this and any other group. If communication is to be utterly clear, people should always add the “not all” clarification, whether they are talking about Jews, Christians, Muslims, men, women, blacks, whites, LGBTQ, straights, etc. Technically, then, ASG-M should preface his anti-English rants here with the “not all” caveat. He also makes many blanket statements — sometimes bordering on violent — about other identity groups. Usually they are sub-groups of the white U.S. population that he blames for all types of racism and conservatism in order to absolve his own identity sub-groups from the same. He practices the same type of rhetoric.

“All that is not true for anti-White statements. Here the “not ALL Whites” is very common and expected.”

No, it isn’t — or at least not in the U.S. White people don’t understand it’s implied at all and get into an uproar about it. Hence the post Abagond wrote on that very topic.

Perhaps you restore some dignity to Black History Month by writing on
” The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews” Volume’s 1 and 11 written by NOI.

It contains strict historical evidence from Jewish respected sources in their leading role in the chattel slavery of kidnapped Africans, the genesis of the Curse of Ham, their part in the genocide of Native Americans, the formation, participation and collusion with the Klu Klan Klan, amongst other historical facts hidden and suppressed from African Americans and the rest of the world.

If you frame it from the historical evidence itself and not the sell-out slant by Gates and propagandist cover-up by Wiesenthal et al.

In doing so , on this blog, African Americans can get to learn about the people who have by prestidigitation and dirty tactics , expunged history by manufacturing a shared history of oppression, when in fact they were/are the original oppressors.

Since you are from the Caribbean, a post on the “Jewish Onslaught” by Professor Tony Martin(R.I.P), would shed light on the dirty tactics to cover up the greatest crimes against humanity.

You are not to make personal remarks about each other. I just deleted several comments where both of you did. Say whatever you want about Jews. Say whatever you want about me. But do not make personal remarks about each other.

So when you believe someone may be anti-Semitic, the way you handle that is not with the kind of measured discourse you directed to me above, but instead by telling them to go commit necrophilia with the corpse of the dictator who was responsible for horrific crimes against their own people?

Please don’t let abagond’s preferential treatment of his racist white campaign colleagues chase you away. And understand he’s still devastated at the US election results and has not yet recovered. To make matters worse, his completely desperate attempts to spread propaganda are just not working.

When he comes to his senses, abagond will one day regret that he started using his own blog to campaign for a racist, attack truth tellers and advance white supremacy.

Hey Abagond did you see Get Out? I thought it was a pretty good social commentary on racism especially among liberal whites. It has so many layers to it as well and the acting was pretty good. I think you should do a review on it. Here’s the trailer for anyone not familiar with it.(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sRfnevzM9kQ)

Abagond, you have to do a post on this movie called “The Intruder.” I’ve just seen it on You Tube. It stars William Shatner and was directed by Roger Corman — yes, king of schlock Roger Corman. Given the film’s title and director , you’d think it was about space invaders or monsters from the deep. Wrong. It’s about a smooth talking racist who arrives in a southern town just as the town’s schools are forced to integrate. I’m interested in hearing other people’s impressions of the film, and I’m curious to see your take on it. Plus, it needs to be discussed given that the language is very similar to what we’re hearing today but with a different ethnic group as the subject.

It isn’t that you stand up to them, it’s how you do it — positioning yourself as a victim being “oppressed” by POC, using aggressively offensive language and insults, not listening to much less conceding to valid points they make, badgering people until they leave instead of attempting to persuade and convince, refusing to see your own faults and cupability.

It isn’t that you’re a progressive. It’s that you seem to be happy, even proud, that you’ve run Fan and Taotesan off. You’ve made it clear that there are other targets on your list who you would be happy to see go as well. You are silencing people.

Let me say that again: It isn’t because you’re a progressive. It is because you, as a white male, have undertaken to silence and run off people of color with whom you disagree.

You, a white male, are silencing people of color in a space that was meant for them to be able to talk and discuss freely.

As liberal as Abagond is, it is pretty clear this is a black space first and foremost, not a progressive space or a liberal space.

Stop trying to shape it to be what you feel comfortable with or what you think it should be. White men have already done far too much of that.

Abagond gets “bashed” for his lies, hypocrisy and preferential treatment of his white racist campaign colleagues. And yes, I’ve provided lots of proof of all of this.

And nothing is worse than how abagond allows his white racist campaign colleagues to derail nearly every single thread about white racism against blacks, and as I’ve pointed out numerous times, much to their chagrin.

LOL! You’re a riot. And how’d I know you couldn’t come up with evidence to back up your false claim?

You’ve falsely accused me of breaking rules you know I didn’t break just to delete my comments that did nothing but expose your deceitful motives, such as the time you FALSELY accused me of advertising, while allowing Mirkwood to advertise his failure of a blog dozens of times.

First, the post was not about white racism against blacks, which was what we were actually talking about.

Second, my first comment was in response to another comment about “Clintons” so therefore I was not the first nor the second to comment on the “Clintons”. Abagond commented on the “Clintons” even before I did.

LOL. How’d I know the white racists’ lackey would chime in to defend her massas? I mean, it’s just like old times, when they spent numerous threads all trying to do something Abagond specifically said not to do:

“”The way to disagree with someone is to disagee with their STATEMENTS, particularly the FACTS and REASONING that underlie them.
Not with their (guessed-at) motives.
Not with their (guessed-at) RACE.
Not with their apparent personal faults.
Not with their grammar or spelling.”

Each and every one of them derailed multiple threads and has “guessed-at” (wrongly) my race, motives, nationality, etc.

^When you can’t dispute commenters’ “STATEMENTS, particularly the FACTS and REASONING that underlie them” then do as the white racists do and call them a “troll”, guess at their race, gender, nationality, etc.

@”I’m still waiting for him to respond to my question about healthcare”

Well you’ll keep waiting because I don’t answer stupid, irrelevant questions, as you know.

@”so you are giving the finger to a sincere commenter and instead want to give care and feeding to a troll”

LOL. The insincere “trolls” are your white campaign colleagues who have derailed countless threads about blacks and white racism to talk about LGBT, the Irish, etc. and to harass me about my race, gender and nationality.

And there’s nothing trollish about calling out their racism and checking you on your hypocrisy and lies, whether it hurts your ego or not.

You used to call out your racist commenters’ racism too, but now you’ve become one of them, which is why your longtime supposed black commenters see right through you and are dropping like flies.

LOL! How funny that the same scribh aka lord of mirkwood who defends blackface, says the Nazi salute, and “loves” the only President who put people in concentration camps (all facts) is preaching about “human decency”.

And abagond is actually here defending him. I only wonder why he was nowhere to be found when scribh aka lord of mirkwood started his disgusting personal attacks against numerous commenters on this thread.

There are two types of commentators on this blog; Those that write abut there personal experiences with white racism and whites who theorize about white supremacy. Some whites who view themselves as “allies” are still just racist. Resw comments over the years lack any reference to personal experience and are an intellectual understanding of racism. Its got white all over it.

LOM

“Kind of like what I did with anti-Semitism of somebody else (on this very thread).”

You refuse to listen. You are viewing anti-Semitism through a Western lens.

Taotesan’s comments about his personal experience with Jews in Africa doesn’t make him anti-Semitic and are valid criticisms. The economic supremacy of some Israelis in different parts of Africa is a very real thing.

When I was traveling through Tanzania, Kenya ect and I would ask “Who owns this coffee plantation?” And the answer was “Israeli’s”. The same with shopping malls in cities to farms out in rural areas.

The diamond industry is a major export of Israel making up about a third of there export revenue. Five billion dollars a year in polished diamonds that originated from the African continent. That five billion dollars should stay if Africa with Africans polishing and trading their own diamonds. But that would mean Israel and the West giving up economic dominance of that resource.

The U.N. is suppose to be an independent democratic organization but who really controls it ? The West and their forward position, Israel.

As we can see, self-admitted white racist michaeljonbarker, who’s clearly and creepily obsessed with me, is once again involving himself to do what abagond specifically said not to do:

“The way to disagree with someone is to disagree with their STATEMENTS, particularly the FACTS and REASONING that underlie them.
Not with their (guessed-at) motives.
Not with their (guessed-at) RACE….”

Why does abagond never have anything to say about this trollish behavior but is so quick to call people trolls who tell truths abagond doesn’t want to hear?

“You know, despite the disagreements we have had in the past, I’ve always counted you as an intelligent commenter.”

Not true. The first few months that we interacted, you didn’t have any respect for me and called me all sorts of names. Not sure when that changed, don’t care — wasn’t ever trying to earn your respect.

“If I had to name four members of this community who I highly respected, they would have been Abagond, Afrofem, Michael Jon Barker, and you. Now that number is whittled down to three.”

Good.

Your respect is fickle and easily lost. Around Thanksgiving you told Sharina that you would vote for her in any political office she would care to run for (I think on the Programming Note thread). A couple months later she had p*ssed you off by continuing to call out your racism and you were telling that French troll that you didn’t like her and heavily implying she wasn’t intelligent.

“Because I look at you now and I see a shell.”

You have never seen me. You have never heard me. You have never listened. You have no idea what I’ve been saying to you.

“You are fighting the bigots 10% of the time”

You are a bigot, and I’ve been fighting with you about that since Day One. I have fought with you more than anyone else, maybe more than everyone else combined. And now I’m done.

“Let it not be said that I was responsible for the severing of what good relations once existed between us.”

The only reason there was anything resembling good relations between us is that I was trying to keep lines of communication open. I was responsible for the “good” relations, and I now am responsible for the cessation of that effort.

So “narrow” that Abagond has outright said you exemplify his “words” (at least before you two started campaigning together):

“Lord of Mirkwood gave a perfect example of #4: Play up how racist the other side is.”

scribh aka lord of mirkwood: “The divide in America among issues like Ferguson and police brutality in general is NOT black-white, it is red-blue. ”

It’s sad how abagond went from pointing out his racism to defending it. It’s a good reminder of the dangers of supposed blacks like abagond allying with open racists like scribh aka lord of mirkwood aka xpraetorius.

If you were serious about battling the Trumpsters, you would be holding forth on the alt-right blogs and subreddits, not fighting black people here who know more about racism and oppression and subjugation than you ever will — including some, like Taotesan, who aren’t even in the U.S. and therefore have nothing to do with Trump and the GOP you rail against.

I like how the author, David Olusoga, gave historical details like the ship that heralded the mass immigration of West Indians to the UK and what life was like for those immigrants from the 1950s to the 1980s. I knew it was rough, but Olusoga added so much terrifying detail, it felt like Alabama in the 1950s.

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munubantu, I have a question: What does having a Bantu identity and heritage mean to you?

I have done some reading about Bantu language groups and the Bantu Expansion throughout Africa over the past 1500 years. I tend to think of the Bantu in the same way I think of Slavic people, Tamil people and Arab people; as people bound by language, culture and sometimes religion.

I’ll try to answer your question about “a Bantu identity” later, maybe in multiple comments, because the question has multiple facets.
It’s interesting that you see similarities in Bantu people, Slavic people, Tamil people and Arab people. Can I ask you which similarities do you see?

To me, the similarities include people of widely varying ethnic groups, and in some cases, phenotypes classified under one broad language and cultural umbrella.

I am aware of the multitude of dialects and cultural norms the various peoples under those umbrellas develop. On occasion, I have read about the various groups trying to determine who forms the center and who is on the margins.

For example, under the Arab umbrella, the people in the Arab peninsula and the Levant seem to form the center, with the people of the Maghreb and the Sahel on the margins.

With the Bantu people, the umbrella seems especially wide and amorphous. I haven’t done as much research on the Bantu people, other than cursory reading about the Bantu Expansion on the Continent. I am curious as to who forms the Bantu center and who is on the margins? Or are the Bantu groups so decentralized as to make that structure (center and margin) meaningless?

I have to admit I am taking a shortcut by asking you about the Bantu people. I would like to learn more and will consider your observations a way of beginning more study and reading about this group of humans.

“It was, generally, well administered, pragmatic, moderate and profitable. The British Empire brought prosperity to many areas of the world, brought the benefits of civilization, modern technology and genuine progress to many corners of the globe that had previously known only darkness, and isolated stagnation.”

If that were true, the British Empire would have squashed Nazi Germany like a bug. On paper it was the largest empire ever seen. In practice it could barely hold its own against Germany.

A few years ago, white “liberals” couldn’t help pointing out that white “right wingers” loved comparing Obama to Hitler.

Now it’s white liberals like scribh aka lord of mirkwood who just can’t stop comparing people with whom they disagree to Hitler.

Despite scribh aka lord of mirkwood’s opinions, his fuhrer made it clear that he was a socialist and that nationalism and socialism go hand in hand:

“You cannot be a true nationalist without also being a socialist; you others cannot be true socialists without also being nationalists.

To be a nationalist means loving one’s own people more than all others, and worker to be sure that it can hold its own among them. If this people to hold its own against the rest of the world, I must wish and work for the health of each member, to see that things go as well as possible for each individual, and therefore the whole. But then I AM A SOCIALIST!”

Whether you agree with him or not, that’s what he thought of himself and that’s what he projected onto the electorate. So that’s why scribh aka lord of mirkwood has to quote a tertiary source whose

“Decisions are made by the will of whoever shows up and does stuff” -RationalWiki.

Thanks for providing someone else’s OPINION, not a primary source, as I’ve done. The fact is your fuhrer called himself a socialist and campaigned on being a socialist, just like someone else I know named Bernie Sanders.

So apply the same standard to your crush, who said, “I am a socialist”:

I thought so too. Hitler did not call for ownership of means of production by workers (Socialism) nor advocate for government takeover of all means of production (Communism). He was pushed into power by very wealthy elites. The man was not socialist or communist at all.

Sorry to come in off topic: I think it was Afrofem who recently posted a link to a podcast or webinar related to internet privacy, surveillance, etc. And An Scríbhneoir Gael-Mheiricéanach posted immediately afterwards with a reference to the related U.P.D.A.T.E. acronym.

I’ve checked multiple posts, but I can’t find the comment with the link. Hopefully I’m not losing my mind – if anyone knows what I’m talking about and can share the post that has that link, I would greatly appreciate it. Many thanks.

On the strike of US military on Syria I must say that, not putting aside my doubts about Trump in general, I agree with his decision this time. Third World dictators oft show a total disregard for human life and, unless a superior power (superior to their own power) intervenes they feel free to do their dirty acts.
I’m not naive and I can see the context:

Assad is confronting a vicious and persistent enemy who doesn’t shy to cover himself in the midst of the civilian population and from there attack governmental positions, so Assad decided that in order to kill his enemy he wouldn’t shy himself to gas and kill even the civilians around; and this is the point where I draw the line: to kill so many civilians and in a such a barbaric way is not acceptable; not for me, anyway; this contrasts to drone attacks which appear to me to be reasonably selective (I’m fully aware that in this blog this is not exactly a popular position, but it’s my position anyway) in the sense that the ratio between killed civilians and enemy combatants is kept to a minimum, in the case of drone attacks; wars are oft messy business but even them are subject to some rules;
Trump launched this attack in a moment when he was receiving a state visit by the Chinese President and with the North Korean affair on the agenda one can suspect that he wanted to score some political point: warn the Chinese that unless they act to control their “rogue” smaller brother (=North Korea), he will feel free to act against him the way he feel fit; so the missile attack can be interpreted also as a message; but, I repeat, in my mind, humanitarian considerations of the case are more important than the “context” that could explain away or minimize the merit of Trump’s decision;
It has been said that Trump was apparently a Russian Trojan horse in the midst of American political life and that would explain his friendliness to them; this missile attack he ordered against Assad, who is backed by the Russians, will be a decisive test to that hypothesis; even a casual observer can now sense that some frictions are growing between Trump and Putin after the attack; let’s way and see what comes out of the whole episode;
This Trumps’s act also underscores a fate of many American Presidents: they can come with a strong Peace agenda (Obama came also 8 years ago wanting to withdraw from or remain outside foreign conflicts… remember?) but the harsh reality of world affairs at some point will get them. Let’s see how the peaceful profile Trump painted of himself will remain or not.

@”According to the New York Times, the US struck Syria with 50 cruise missiles. They hit an air base about an hour ago”

Put into perspective, McCain took a secret trip to “rebel-held part of northern Syria” in February 2017 and has since been drumming the beat of striking Assad.

These are the same “rebels” McCain is on record acknowledging the US armed a few years ago.

A “chemical attack” happens in “rebel-held part of northern Syria” and everyone blames Assad, not the “rebels”, with no evidence.

McCain is running his mouth everywhere today, saying things like the attack is “eight years in the making.”

And this NYT article has propaganda written all over it with statements like, “Fighting terrorism was Mr. Putin’s stated goal when he dispatched the Russian military to Syria in September 2015, though its main effect has been to shore up Mr. Assad”.

Thanks for the link. I loved how ProPublica refuted the Insurance industry falsehoods point by point. This passage struck me:

“While the industry criticizes ProPublica and Consumer Reports for not using company-specific data, such as individual insurers’ losses in each zip code, it does not make this information available. If the industry would release it, we would welcome the opportunity to take a look and continue the conversation.”

In fact, ProPublica and Consumer Reports were forced to use state data because the insurance industry is so secretive. Then they have the gall to criticize the report for not using insurance company data. Sounds like the types of racist deflections we see everyday online and offline.

This image shows what happens everyday to Black people with all industries:

Not a fan of palak paneer, too rich for me. However, I can vacuum up a plate of curried chicken and basmati rice! I had some at an Indian restaurant on Thursday evening. It’s a good thing curry can be prepared in so many ways!

Don’t have to wait too long for another incident to hit the national (or in this case, international) news.

I was just wondering if people here thought that there was any element of racial profiling in the targeting of passengers to be bumped from the United Airlines Chicago –> Louisville flight and the subsequent the beating and forced removal by police.

Social media in HK is abuzz with this today and most seem to think so.

But I read it is also the #1 trending item both on twitter in the USA and the #1 trending item on Chinese weibo. Offering a coupon for a free flight would have cost a couple hundred dollars (I gave up a seat on an overbooked flight once for that). But recovering from this PR disaster could cost tens of millions. UA can no longer effectively use the catch phrase that they have the most number of direct flights from the USA to China on any airline.

UA’s CEO did not directly apologize for the incident, but rather for inconvenience that the action caused. faux pas on top of faux pas.

“I was just wondering if people here thought that there was any element of racial profiling in the targeting of passengers to be bumped from the United Airlines Chicago –> Louisville flight and the subsequent the beating and forced removal by police.”

I didn’t come up with that conclusion whatsoever. That is why I was asking. Why did you assume that I came up with any conclusion at all?

I asked it because I noticed that social media in HK was abuzz with this in the past 24 hours and some of them mentioned this as a factor. Some simply said that UA is renowned for poor service.

And not only social media in HK, but also mainstream media in the USA mentioned that the victim implied that racial targeting was a factor, as has twitter in the USA and tens of millions of weibo users in China. Millions have come up with this conclusion. I did not form the conclusion, but was wondering if anyone thought race was a factor or not.

However, even if race played no factor at all, it is almost beside the point, as the perception has been affected, particularly as the airline carrier touting itself as the one with the most US china direct flights. I am now waiting for them to offer half-price roundtrip tickets from HK to NY. I took my last trip to DC from HK on United (although some segments were codeshares on Japanese carriers).

Because you asked about “racial profiling” in the same sentence that you invented the claim that a “beating” had occurred and then ended your post by noting United’s lack of apology, as if something wrong had occurred. You even labeled it as “faux pas on top of faux pas” but now expect me to think you haven’t reached “any conclusion at all”?

Please.

And do you have the video of the “beating” because I can’t seem to find it? And if United committed a “faux pas”, what was it?

From what I have read, United did offer vouchers, first $400 each and then $800, but got no takers. They were authorized to go up to $1000 but instead chose at that point to remove passengers. Supposedly they used a computer program to randomly select the passengers to be removed. The airline does have a right to do this, but United has also issued a statement that the subsequent incident did not follow standard operating procedure (without details on the exact deviations from SOP).

They were trying to make room for 4 United employees who had to work in Kentucky the next day. As the Chicago Tribune pointed out (links below), this presumably meant United had other options, like putting the employees on a different flight. It’s possible, though, that the employees had to meet certain FAA regulations about amount of sleep between work periods and needed to leave right then.

It’s difficult to imagine that United would have treated a 69-year-old white man who identified himself as a physician in the same brutal manner, but perhaps they would have. They certainly had other options, though, such as accepting his reasons for needing to stay on the flight and moving on to the next name on the computer-generated list.

This might sound a bit off topic, but this is one of the reasons I wish the USA had a high-speed rail system. I am sure the airline industry must be lobbying hard against it, but it would solve a lot of these short-medium haul transportation bottlenecks.

Imagine if we had a high speed line from Chicago to Atlanta (via Indianapolis, Louisville, Nashville, Chattanooga), Louisville is only 290 miles from chicago, which could be reached in 2 hrs. via high speed rail. But instead, everyone is forced into going through airports. There are few other options.

The oil companies and auto manufacturers might also be lobbying against it. We have a critical dearth of public transportation options in the US, not just the lack of high-speed trains but even regular passenger trains, city bus services, etc.

I was rushing earlier and made a couple mistakes above. I just corrected one (the attribution of the SOP quote) in a comment on Abagond’s “United Airlines Flight 3411” post.

The other mistake: the article quoted a passenger as saying they were offered vouchers of $400 and $800, then United as saying they offered $1000. I misread that to mean $1000 was the limit that the United officials were authorized to offer; in fact, I don’t know what the ceiling was.

And not exactly a mistake but a clarification: the information about the “volunteers” being chosen by computer seems to be what one passenger says they were told. United has said the passengers who were removed were chosen randomly, but to the best of my knowledge United has not specified to the press exactly how that random selection was made. I also have yet to find any mention of the races of the other three passengers who were “re-accomodated.”

I have many big beefs about the PRC, but one great thing they have done is connected the country with high speed rail. Last November I took the high speed train from Shenzhen to Chaoshan (a station centrally located between Chaozhou, Shantou and Jieyang in eastern Guangdong province). The distance is about 340km/ 215mi, or approximately the distance from New York to DC or Boston. It took 90 minutes nonstop (or about 2hr. 10 mins. with multiple stops). The bus ride takes 5 1/2 hours.
I have also traveled several times from Kaohsiung to Taipei and back. The distance is also similar and it takes 1 hr. 45 mins. by high speed train and 4 hrs. by bus on the expressways.

This has all been done in the past 5-10 years.

As someone who has traveled often between DC/NYC/Boston dozens of times, I would love to have that option on the east coast. DC –> Boston is almost in a straight line and about 60 million people live within 1 hr. of that line. (by comparison, Taiwan only has 23 million, roughly similar to greater New York city, yet it has frequent high speed rail service.

There are also many other logical routes in the USA, eg,
San Diego via LA to SF / Sacramento
DC to Miami (down the seaboard via Charleston, Savannah, jacksonville) and to New Orleans via Raleigh/Charlotte/Atlanta/Birmingham.
Minneapolis to Chicago to Atlanta to Orlando/Miami via Indianapolis, Louisville, Nashville, Chattanooga).
Chicago to New York (many routes possible).
Las Vegas to Los Angeles.

Besides the airlines, oil companies and auto makers, there is big pushback from states which would not be served by high speed rail. They do not want federal money going to those states that would benefit.

18-19 years ago, China only had two urban mass transit systems in Beijing and Shanghai (and maybe Tianjin, I believe), and they were not that extensive. Now that have 28 systems operational and more to come into operation in the years to come. Shanghai now has more miles of track than New York City.

In comparison, no new system has been started in the USA since 1993 (LA).

Of course, I have also been on several systems in Japan too. They have been advanced for many decades already.

I have the experience of living in DC / NY / Boston before (as well as many visits to SF), so I figured out how to get by without a car, but there are very few places to do that in the USA. so sad. Everywhere else, I have to rent cars.

There are some ways that the USA seems so backward compared to other countries. Its transportation system is one. And I read they will eliminate most of the remaining long haul passenger train lines.

“there is big pushback from states which would not be served by high speed rail. They do not want federal money going to those states that would benefit.”

Unfortunately, this seems to be a common attitude in the U.S. I’ve lived in towns that desperately needed extended city bus hours and routes — where night-shift workers in the retail, restaurant, and hotel industries, in hospitals and factories, were often walking to and from work at 3 a.m. on narrow roads with no sidewalks. And it never ceased to amaze me how many people were opposed to extending the bus service because it would come out of their taxes but they personally would never use the bus, so they didn’t see why they should have to pay.

We are a selfish nation filled with people who will squeal loudly if some tax-funded thing they use and/or enjoy is threatened but will vehemently oppose any tax-funded thing they have no personal use for.

Also a good public transportation system has basically only positive effects within cities. Due to less cars there is more space (no parking lots) and less pollution (both air and noise). It also increases educational and employment opportunities for those who can’t afford cars.
Once it works and is kept up to a certain standard of puncuality and cleanliness it also is well liked by those who have do pay for it and have other options. Not to be stuck in traffic every day increases qualitiy of life.

Have you seen that Stepin Fetchicit 2.0 movie “Get Out” ? Its everything wrong with black buppie movie-making. Armond White warned us that this Sambo foolishness was going to be rehabilitated over 10 years ago.

California has a high speed rail project that’s expected to cost anywhere from 60 to 80 billion to build.

The cost comes in twice as high as China’s construction of of high speed rail but wages are considerably higher here as well as real estate and mountain terrain to build through.

There has been some controversy over the project with “pay for play” construction companies lobbying heavily for exclusive contracts. A French company who has actually built high speed rail has been excluded from the bidding process.

California is about the only place where HSR may have a chance. It is because it is entirely within one state,will not rely upon the US Congress to appropriate funds nor the cooperation of other states’ legislatures, and can be laid in areas that do not require extensive refitting of existing track.

By contrast, the Northeast corridor has so many restrictions regarding large portions of its track over bridges and tunnels which have a history of use over 100 years, or over 150 years in some cases. Refitting the East Coast would require extensive upgrading, even rerouting of track and no one is willing to pay for that, particularly the states not in that corridor.

What if all of New England banded together and became its own country? (… or at least most of it, since I’m pretty sure some towns up north speak French and are probably more loyal to Montreal/Quebec than to Boston/NE, and also I think some towns in southwestern Connecticut are more loyal to New York City/the mid-Atlantic. On the other hand, we might gain some land from upstate New York.)

I’m not advocating for a Nexit or whatever right now, but it’s interesting to think about. I’m sick of the deadlocks and warmongering in Washington, as well as the corruption of Wall Street and New York politicians like Trump and Hillary. I would love if we could have a country run by people like Bernie and Elizabeth.

Every NE state is more liberal than average (the majority of them are in the top ten). NE is geographically larger than “Old” England and has a higher population than 69 percent of the world’s countries do. Its GDP is greater than that of about 92 percent of countries. Most NE states rank in the top ten for educational attainment and academic proficiency. The region’s unemployment rate is lower than that of the US as a whole. Massachusetts and New Hampshire were rated the two best states by USA Today, and the rest of NE ranked between #10 and #21 (they used 60 different kinds of data to determine the rankings).

We would have to maintain friendly relations with the US, of course. I’d hate to be on the receiving end of a “military action” or be cut off from the farms of the Midwest.

What if New England and Quebec broke off from their respective countries and formed some kind of alliance? I like to imagine the possibilities. It could be called the Evergreen Alliance, because of the tall white pines that are abundant in both regions (the old New England flag depicted one). Other possible names would be the Atlantic Alliance (since both regions border the ocean) and the North Star Nation (since both are in the northern part of the continent).

Probably none of that will ever happen, but you never know with the way the political scene has been going…

“No. Do you? Both Vermont and Hawaii used to be independent nations that now are not.”

Yes, I do. The differences are immense.

Unlike Vermont, Hawaii was an independent nation of non-white indigenous people. Unlike Vermont, the Hawaiian government was unlawfully overthrown by white Americans with assistance from the U.S. military.

Hawaiian secession is an indigenous movement of Native Hawaiians, not the wider population of the state. It is intertwined with issues of sovereignty and federal recognition of Native Hawaiians.

Unlike Native American nations, Native Hawaiians have no treaties with the federal government and no legal recognition as a sovereign nation. As bad as Native Americans have it, most do have tribal governments (and sometimes tribal police, courts, etc.) recognized by the federal government. Native Hawaiians do not have even this much autonomy.

The movement is two-pronged. Some would be satisfied just to get the same amount of sovereignty as the Native American tribes on the mainland. Others see this as only the first step towards regaining ownership and control of the land that was forcibly stolen from them and are working towards the end goal of the (re)establishment of a separate nation ruled by and for the indigenous people.

Perhaps some comparison to Ireland comes to mind?

“Does the greater part of the movement want to restore the monarchy? If so, my nose turns up big-time.”

The movement is divided between those who want a republic and those who want a restoration of their constitutional monarchy. I don’t know which idea has more support. Although I’m not a fan of royalty and monarchies, I think this is up to the Native Hawaiians to decide among themselves. From what I gather, this is a secondary issue to their main goal, which is to get their land back.

“I must admit I do not know much about the politics of Hawaiian secessionists.”

I agree with much of your post. Like you, I think NE is the best region in the US (actually, it’s the only clearly-defined one). I do have warm feelings toward Northern California, particularly San Francisco (which I view as being sort of the Boston of the West Coast, with LA being the equivalent of NYC) – even if Zuckerberg does find the Bay Area too flighty and short-sighted. I see the value of New England staying and influencing the US for now, but like you, I could be swayed toward secession depending on future events.

I too enjoy the diversity of American culture and climate. However, I can also appreciate many nations that I don’t belong to, so I don’t consider being an American necessary for enjoying Hawaiian culture or the Grand Canyon or whatever. In a way, I have a hard time really feeling united with distant parts of the US any more than I feel united with, say, Canada. Does NE have more in common with Dallas or Halifax? Are the redwood forests of the Pacific Northwest really more relevant to us than our shared white pine forest with Quebec? I guess that’s kind of what the Eleven Nations theory is about, although I don’t think of the Midwest as being united with NE or Louisiana as being united with QC.

Also, we have a variety of cultures, climates, and terrain types just in Greater Boston/NE alone. Urban school systems in MA often serve students from dozens of language backgrounds, and only about half of all Bostonians are White (plus, many of the White people aren’t actually WASPs). In a given year in NE, you can see everything from a blizzard to a heat wave. Mount Washington contains subarctic zones while Southern NE contains subtropical beaches.

If NE were to become a country while keeping similar borders to what it has today, I think the obvious capital would be Boston. Each former state could still have some power as a district of the new nation. Much of NE government is based on town meetings, anyway, and that wouldn’t need to change. We are already many united as one.

If we were to collaborate with QC, I think Boston and Montreal could each have part of the government, in the South African style that you mentioned. One could have the executive branch and foreign embassies, while the other could have the legislative and judicial branches, or something to that effect. We could also have a president (or a president and a premier ministre) from each major cultural group (Anglophone and Francophone) like they do in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and let each region mostly govern itself. Alternately, we could be completely separate countries but forge strong military and trade alliances (that might be the easiest option).

Do you have any more thoughts on the matter, Scribh? Is anyone else here from NE (or QC)?

I think Native Hawaiians should absolutely be allowed to govern themselves in reservation-type nations if they choose. I hadn’t thought about it before, but why aren’t they given the same privileges as other Native groups?

I’m not sure it would be fair for them to try to kick all non-Natives out of positions of power, however. I know that’s basically what White Americans did to them, but two wrongs don’t make a right (we don’t need another Israel).

They aren’t privileges that were given. They are rights established in treaties between two sovereign nations.

Native Americans often got the short end of the stick in those treaties, and the U.S. government has broken many of the treaties. But still, that’s the key difference. Native American nations have rights that were established in exchange for secession of land.

Native Hawaiians never entered a treaty with the U.S. government. They therefore have no treaty rights. Basically their government was overthrown and they were placed under military occupation, end of story.

“I’m not sure it would be fair for them to try to kick all non-Natives out of positions of power, however.”

They haven’t decide what to do about the non-indigenous population. That’s a long ways in the future. They might not stop with what you suggest above; they might kick everyone else out and send them to the mainland. They might do exactly the opposite and allow full citizenship and participation for non-indigenous Hawaiians who want to stay in the new nation.

“I know that’s basically what White Americans did to them, but two wrongs don’t make a right.”

Folks, I am purchasing a car. Should I pass my driving test next month, I failed the first, I will go out and get the car. I am currently down to two models; The Kia Soul and the Hyundai Tuscon. What say you? What would be your choice? I am also looking at the Kia Niro, a hybrid but none have become available in my area. Thanks.

Thanks for explaining why the Native Hawaiians don’t have their own land. The issue makes more sense to me now (although I still think they should be allowed to have reservations if they want them).

I have to disagree about letting a state (or nation) just decide that certain people can’t live there or hold positions of power because of their ethnic background. There is too much of that kind of close-minded thinking in the world already.

If a liar reports to police that a black person (rarely a white person) has a gun or did X with no evidence at all, police can violate your rights even if you don’t fit the description given. That needs to change.

And the liar who made the false report should be prosecuted, which often doesn’t happen, especially when the liar is white.

And I’m going to wait for all the Dr. Dao defenders to come and express their outrage over this incident.

I would wait for abagond to write a post on it, but since the national msm isn’t really covering it, I won’t hold my breath.

It’s their land. Why do non-Hawaiians persist in believing that we have the right to decide what happens to that land? Why do we treat the Native Hawaiians as children who must beg to be allowed self-determination?

“wasn’t much of that driven out with the Democratic Revolution of the 1950s? At the very least, the big plantations were consigned to history.”

ASG-M, you are not looking at this from a Native Hawaiian standpoint. What you said above is like saying “Slavery has been abolished, so it’s all perfect now.”

Native Hawaiians live in poverty while their land is stripped of its resources and defaced by large luxury hotels and military bases that make money for everyone but them. They have poor health and low life expectancy, high addiction and incarceration rates, and are having difficulty keeping their language and culture alive.

ASG-M brought up their low population numbers but did so as an argument against Native Hawaiian self-determination rather than seeing those numbers as an indicator that Native Hawaiians are in danger of becoming extinct.

“Ethnic cleansing of 90% of the people who live there is another.”

Ethnic cleansing has already occurred in Hawaii. You seem only to be concerned if it could happen to people who look like you.

I said above and I say again that Native Hawaiians haven’t decided to do anything bad to non-Natives, yet you both seem most concerned with the possibility that they might oppress other groups rather than the justice of their regaining their land, their autonomy, and their sovereignty.

“Also, Hawaii provides crucial liberal votes in national elections and in Congress. They voted for Bernie in the Democratic primaries by one of the strongest margins. As a progressive living in the United States, do I want to see that influence annulled? No, quite frankly, I don’t.”

Which brings me back to my original point. ASG-M cares more about liberal votes than justice for indigenous people who have suffered oppression for over 100 years.

ASG-M, you continue to give me insight concerning the negative attitudes many POC have towards liberal whites. You don’t care what the Native Hawaiians want, even if that could mean the difference between their continuance as a people or their extinction.

You might pay lip service to their cause if they lived in a conservative red state. But because they live in a liberal blue state, you oppose their struggle because you value the power of the liberal votes of their state more than you value the continued existence of Native Hawaiians.

“That description of the current state of Native Hawaiians is shocking. It sounds a lot like what is in Abagond’s post on the Sioux.”

Apparently I erred in assuming that you already knew this. What, you thought they were all happily dancing the hula for tourists and raking money in hand over fist?

“Clearly issues like poor health, high addiction and incarceration, cry out for addressing. It sounds a lot like the poverty that I see every day in New England. It strikes me that the implementation of Bernie Sanders’s platform could have cleared up a lot of this.”

Studies have shown that the more autonomy and self-determination that indigenous people possess, the better their outcomes in all aspects of life. Restoring autonomy and sovereignty is a proven solution to these problems.

“Right now I am looking at Native Hawaiians as my fellow Americans, and thinking about how to craft policy solutions to elevate all of them to a comfortable middle-class status.”

As with the Sioux, poverty is only part of the problem. As with the Sioux, sacred lands are being desecrated. Some are even off-limits to Native Hawaiians. Elevating Native Hawaiians to a comfortable middle-class status under your terms will not give them the power to decide what happens to their ancestral lands and their sacred places, which is an issue of great importance to them.

“Maybe we could afford to lose Hawaii then. But now in 2017, with Trump in office, this is exactly the wrong time to be playing this game.”

We could afford to lose Hawaii? Do you not see the paternalistic attitude in that statement? Is Hawaii ours to lose? Or was it already lost — by the Native Hawaiians, through our illegal, unwarranted, and violent actions? We stole that land, and now you’re justifying that theft by saying we can’t afford to lose it.

And playing that game? You don’t think that smacks of paternalism? Calling their struggle against oppression and injustice a game as if they are children on a playground?

“but I reject the accusation of ‘paternalism.’”

I’m not going to get into competing definitions with you, but you should know d@mn well that what you quoted isn’t the only way the word is correctly used. Think about the use of the word in feminist theory, for example. Look up the use of the word in critical race theory, or for that matter just everyday discourse about racism. I don’t have time to do your homework for you, so google it yourself.

How about “waste of breath”? That was the conclusion I came to upthread. I told you on the Jeff Sessions thread not to come over here if you were just going to waste my time, yet that’s exactly what you’re doing.

You seem to be unable to support the rights of POC if gaining those rights might feasibly inconvenience you personally in any single way. You don’t really care about their well-being. You like to spout enough liberal platitudes to look anti-racist, that’s all.

“Another example: if Hawaiian nationalists make a move, what ramifications does that have on the political scene in the U.S.?”

Who cares?

Righting a wrong is righting a wrong, end stop.

“Although I’ll admit I don’t know if the U.S. military is using them as well.”

Christ. You really need to read up on this.

“As for sacred lands, there’s a very easy way to remedy that. It’s called a law in the Hawaii state legislature that flat-out says no development on sacred lands.”

That doesn’t address those sacred lands that have already been developed. Does your proposed law allow for the removal of luxury resorts, golf courses, and military installations?

It also doesn’t address the access to and ownership of those lands. How are you even going to decide which lands count? Are you going to return the land to the people or just have the government hold it “in trust” the same way so many Native Americans have been screwed over?

“I sure as hell am not agreeing to the proposition that I stole anything from anyone.”

Yes, yes. You never owned slaves and you never sailed over the ocean to kill brown people for their land and you never did nothing to nobody. Therefore you don’t have to accept any culpability in the wrongs that your nation has perpetrated.

“I guess I’m taking a much larger view of this than you are.”

No, you’re conflating and exaggerating and doing everything you can to find a reason not to support Hawaiian independence because the idea makes you uncomfortable.

Be realistic for a moment. They’ve been fighting for this for decades. It’s unlikely that they’ll succeed in the next eight years.

Yet somehow you’ve constructed a scenario where the struggle of indigenous people in Hawaii leads to Trump causing World War III.

It would cost you absolutely nothing to pay minimal lip service to the cause of Native Hawaiian independence.

Yet you refuse.

Because you are not willing to support the rights of POC if gaining those rights might feasibly inconvenience you personally in any single way.

Well, maybe “allowed” isn’t quite the right word, but I’m not sure what is. The fact remains that the US government controls Hawaii at this moment. I’m trying to say that our country should give some of it back.

@ Scribh

Ha ha, I like the variety of weather here, although sometimes a fast change can seem absurd. It’s fun to go snowboarding and fun to go to the beach, but not necessarily in the same month. 😉

I definitely think we could acknowledge the diversity of language backgrounds in NE – not just English and French, though. There are actually more Spanish and Portuguese speakers in NE than Francophones, and Chinese speakers aren’t far behind.

I’m not a military expert, but I’d certainly like the armed forces to represent a small proportion of the NE federal budget compared to the how the US spends money. I do think there could be some wars worth fighting, but not many. I would be okay with most police officers being unarmed (but we’d probably need some kind of special force for violent situations, as they do in places like Ireland, Great Britain, Norway, and New Zealand).

Renewable energy would be great for the environment, for our health, and for keeping us out of the Middle East. I also agree with your other political ideas that you listed towards the end of your comment. I’d like to add that we’d probably need a strict trade/tariff system that would privilege NE goods. It’s no use having strong unions if companies just say, “Fine, you can keep your fair work policies, but we’re moving our operation to someplace cheaper where people are less organized.” (That’s what happened to NE’s industrial cities in the 1900s.)

What do you think a new currency could be like? I propose that the bills (1s, 5s, 10s, 20s, and 50s) be green, orange, red, blue, and purple – like the four underground lines of the T (the oldest underground railway in North America) and the Boston commuter rail. Each one could have a NE animal on it: a bear, a deer, a whale, a lobster, and a heron, or something to that effect.

It’s funny that I might have converted you to an idea I only half believe in myself.

Sorry, I don’t know enough about those cars to make a recommendation. If one feels noticeably better to you or seems to just fit when you’re behind the wheel, if it is more responsive, easier to drive, etc., then go for that one even if it costs more.

Good luck on your driver’s test! Remember: “Men are only good for one thing, but how often do you need to parallel park anyway?”

I was going to try to choose some famous New Englanders for the currency yesterday, but there were so many possibilities that I got overwhelmed. I really like your suggestion of William Lloyd Garrison, and Roger Williams could work too. I’m not sure if these are actually the best choices, but here are some other people I could see being popular: Benjamin Franklin, Noah Webster, Phillis Wheatley, Robert Frost, Jack Kerouac, Louisa May Alcott, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, Frederick Douglass, Susan B. Anthony, Paul Revere, Johnny Appleseed, Squanto, the Adamses (Sam, John, John Quincy, and Abigail), the Kennedys (Jack, Bobby, and Ted)… honestly, there are too many to name. I do think we should pick people who have been dead for at least like 50 years and who are are generally taken seriously. No Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Stephen King, Steven Tyler, Joan Baez, Donna Summer, Bobby Brown, Meghan Trainor, Mandy Moore, Adam Sandler, Seth Meyers, Steve Carell, Amy Poehler, Leonard Nimoy, Matt Damon, Wahlbergs, Afflecks, etc – even though those types of current and/or entertaining people might win a popularity contest.

If we were going to have an alliance with an independent Quebec, I absolutely think we could favor them in our trade policies. I believe some wars have been worth fighting, like the (US) Civil War and WWII, but I think the military should mainly be for defense purposes. I am also against the death penalty and would like to see it outlawed. Even Tsarnaev doesn’t deserve that kind of hypocritical treatment (to punish you for killing, we’ll kill you!)

If Le Pen wins then the French will quickly know what she actually represents once and for all. They had the opportunity to push Jean-Luc Melenchon to the second round of voting but instead picked Le Pen.

In my opinion, Melenchon was the real deal; he really wanted to unite the French and change the system to favor workers. Le Pen is an racist idealist with what I would want to describe as selective nostalgia. She will not change anything, she will make it worse. We can’t be waiting with bated breath every French election season wondering whether they will elect a racist or a plutocrats puppet.

Macron seems to me like a designer president; who has the look and says all the right things but will end up making the French more thirsty for a Le Pen type.

But I really want her to win so that once and for all Franco-Phone Africa will open their eyes and see the French clearly. The sooner they cut ties with France the better.

I get what you are saying but it seems like the French are really getting comfy with her. Its like the French are taunting us like a bully playing with your phone near a toilet bowl; he seems like he is about to throw it inside but quickly lifts it up and laughs at you.

I am like “Vote for her already stop taunting us”. Let them dip their hands in fire and see how hot it burns.

Macron is not going to challenge the banks pushing austerity measures onto the Greeks. He is not going to call for a change in the financial world at all. Maybe he will adjust a few things here and there but nothing really significant.

That means that young people in France will still remain dissatisfied and many of them will continue supporting Le Pen. Her popularity says something about France; she is like a symptom of a fatal disease that the French keep treating with pain killers.

I want her to win so that a future Melenchon can finally dethrone her and actually change the situation in France. Just like sometimes doctors have to rebreak your leg to reset it.

I so agree with your sentiment. A lot of people in Global North nation-states think their “democratic” institutions will prevent a free fall into grinding poverty and social disorder. They are wrong.

Sometimes the best way to learn a hard lesson is to experience hard times. Nothing corrects delusion like reality. The French and Francophone Africa need to see all of the actors without their makeup before real change can occur.

“…let’s remember how the Third Reich ended in Germany. Not with the Social Democrats coming to power in a wave of discontent in 1937, but with a global war that left Germany bombed and burned to a crisp.”

It is a lesson the Germans have not forgotten. You will notice they don’t act like fools on the world stage anymore. Using villagewriter’s metaphor, in 1937, the Germans dipped their hands in fire and experienced how hot (and painful) the flames were.

I wonder where all the Dr. Dao defenders are to also defend the black man who was made to leave a Delta flight for needing to urinate during prolonged runway taxiing. Where are the media outrage and calls to boycott Delta?

Precisely. Unlike in the Dao and stroller/verbal assault incidents, here we learned this guy’s height and hairstyle: “6-foot-3” with “dreadlocks”. In other words, “mistreating” him was OK because he’s a big, scary black guy.

“Selective outrage. They didn’t like the fact that the people taking out Dao were black.”

I said the same thing on the United Airlines Flight 3411 thread. There were even racist trolls, who never once uttered a peep about all the unarmed blacks being killed by police, suddenly defending David Dao for being “brutalized”.

These white supremacists are not even hiding their double standards anymore.

Are you planning to write anything about the shooting in La Jolla? Gunman was white, targeted a group almost entirely African American (reportedly having a poolside birthday party), victims all African American and Latino, and the cops are saying they don’t believe it was a racially motivated attack.

“….Trump’s immigration policies and rhetoric are leaving some Mexican-Americans and immigrants feeling at odds with a holiday they already thought was appropriated by beer and liquor companies, event promoters and bars.

Latino activists and scholars say ambivalence is bolstered by the hazy history of Cinco de Mayo and by stereotypes exploited by marketers.

The once-obscure holiday marking a 19th century battle between Mexico and invading French forces is now a regular celebration in the U.S., where party-goers flock to bars for cheap margaritas and tacos. Television beer commercials often show mostly white actors on a beach celebrating.

Often mistaken for Mexican Independence Day (Sept. 16), Cinco de Mayo commemorates the 1862 Battle of Puebla between the victorious ragtag army of largely Mexican Indian soldiers against the invading French forces of Napoleon III. The day is barely observed in Mexico, but was celebrated in California by Latinos and abolitionists who linked the victory to the fight against slavery.

During the Chicano Movement of the 1970s, Mexican-Americans adopted Cinco de Mayo for its David vs. Goliath story line as motivation in civil rights struggles.

This year, some immigrant enclaves have canceled or reduced Cinco de Mayo celebrations over fears that party-goers could be exposed to possible deportation. In Philadelphia, a Cinco de Mayo-related celebration was scrapped after organizers determined turnout would drop over concerns about immigration raids.

Others worry that parties could take a cruel spin, with revelers, emboldened by Trump’s crackdown, mocking and even attacking Mexicans. In Waco, Texas, a college fraternity at Baylor University was suspended after throwing a Cinco de Mayo party where students reportedly dressed as construction workers and maids and chanted “Build that Wall,” a reference to Trump’s signature campaign promise. The party sparked an investigation and campus protest.”

Something I just realized: people say “United States” but never “United Kingdoms”.

I doubt that’s by accident. If the English monarchy had used the plural term “United Kingdoms,” it would have been a constant reminder that the three Celtic countries not only used to be independent nations but also separate kingdoms ruled over by their own royal families. They didn’t unite willingly nor without bloodshed.

And I never said otherwise. This is true, right now in the present time.

What’s equally true, though, is in the past there used to be multiple kingdoms on that same land, before the English invaded and did what they do so well: take other peoples’ land through violence, warfare, and deception.

“A historical region and ancient kingdom of northern Ireland. Largely annexed by the English Crown during the reign of James I, it is now divided between Ireland and Northern Ireland, which is often called Ulster.”

“(Placename) a province and former kingdom of N Ireland: passed to the English Crown in 1461; confiscated land given to English and Scottish Protestant settlers in the 17th century, giving rise to serious long-term conflict; partitioned in 1921, six counties forming Northern Ireland and three counties joining the Republic of Ireland.”

Ulster is not synonymous with “Northern Ireland”. Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan are not in Northern Ireland. So again, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland does NOT refer to more than one kingdom.

How amazing the lengths people go to try to be right, when they’re clearly wrong.

Resw:
I fabricated inforamtion? I have to be right? I provided evidence of my answer–and I never said Northern Ireland or Wales were kingdoms. Northern Ireland was part of the kingdom of Ireland, but was taken by the British in the 1920s, and Wales was absorbed when the UK became a country in the 1700s. (Note that Wales also had a kingdom within its borders, the kingdom of Gwent)

I just saw this article about medical and dental clinic hacking for ransom by a group called the Dark Overlord. According to McClatchy DC:

“The hackers freeze the clinics’ records, then demand payment in bitcoin to return access. If payment is not forthcoming, the records may be released on the internet. On the underground “dark web,” crime groups pay varying rates for what is known as personally identifiable information.

Social Security numbers can fetch about 25 cents each, while credit card numbers might bring $1 to $10, said Robert Lord, chief executive of Protenus, a Baltimore firm specializing in health care cybersecurity. Complete health records can sell for hundreds of dollars each.

[…] medical records are largely immutable and provide family history, medications, billing information, medical diagnoses, sexual history and further details.

“They can be used for extremely complex types of fraud,” Lord said, like identity theft, medication and claims fraud, and abusive ad targeting.

“Then of course there is medical blackmail. If you’re a public figure and you have plastic surgery or you’re HIV positive or have a cancer diagnosis . . . you can imagine what that could mean if your records became public,” Lord said.”

ProPublica is running a series on maternal deaths in the USA. Women dying of preventable causes during and after childbirth in this country is among the highest in developed countries.

According to the first article, The Last Person You’d Expect to Die in Childbirth,

“The ability to protect the health of mothers and babies in childbirth is a basic measure of a society’s development. Yet every year in the U.S., 700 to 900 women die from pregnancy or childbirth-related causes, and some 65,000 nearly die — by many measures, the worst record in the developed world.”

In the next article in the series, What We’ve Learned So Far About Maternal Mortality From You, Our Readers, the writers express a desire to focus on racial disparities in maternal deaths. According to the writers,

“…we want to reach more women of color. African Americans are three to four times more likely to die from childbirth complications than whites, yet we have only heard about 120 stories relating to black mothers. [out of 3,100 responses]

We are now researching an upcoming article about racial disparities. Last week, we asked the black women we’ve heard from where they talk with other women about surviving childbirth complications.”

This seems timely (to me) because I just found out that Judge Glenda Hatchett’s daughter-in-law died shortly after giving birth, all because the medical staff took its sweet time bringing this woman back into the OR for emergency surgery. Largely white medical staff dismissing black patients’ concerns also plays a role in maltreatment and increased mortality.

@ Herneith

Folks, I just partook of a delicious, melt in your mouth steak cooked rare. As a side dish, I had potato salad with onions, red peppers and garlic! Jealous?

I’m wondering if you’ll ever do a series on black inventors. Reason I ask is because I just stumbled on the story of Emmit McHenry and read how he essentially invented top-level domains (TLDs) for the Internet and wound up being screwed out of billions of dollars by our wonderful government.

Talking down to Black patients, assuming Black people have higher tolerances for pain and treating Black people like mooching criminals does have negative real world consequences.

The case of Judge Glenda Hatchett’s daughter-in-law was completely outrageous. One Black oriented site described her daughter-in-law’s ordeal this way:

“Kyira Johnson, who was married to Judge Hatchett’s son, Charles, went to Cedars Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles for a C-Section, but according to the lawsuit, while she was recovering in the hospital, her blood pressure plummeted and she complained of pain in her abdomen. However, she wasn’t taken into surgery for 10 hours, where doctors found three liters of blood in her abdomen from “excessive bleeding” and could not save her.

“The last thing she said to me was that, ‘I am scared.’ I held her hand I kissed and I told her everything will be OK,” Charles said.”

Hi Solitaire. I still like your name. Might we be friends? Actually I dunno, enemies might work better when you think about that saying, “keep your friends close and your enemies closer?”—hummmmmm.

There’s more to the list should I add them?

PS: Blacks killed in Chicagoland 2017
2017 DEATH TOLL : 237 (not all blacks tho–sorry) But more than 7.
Illustrating Chicago Values:http://heyjackass.com/
Can’t vouch for the facts but you get my drift. Mr. jackass.com seems to have a bit of an attitude.

Chicagoland is the “claimed” home of President Hussein–the guy who built a wall around his house then tells you we can’t hide behind a wall–duh?

Hey Hillary in 2020! Keep hope aliiiiive.

PPS: I call him President Hussein because if I call him Barry Soetoro it wouldn’t be respectful.– It’d be like twisting his name, sorta.

Yes Miss Solitaire I’m sure I’d learn a lot. Hey are you saying I’m a troll? What’s wrong with Trolls? They need love too! Or am I jumping to a conclusion? BTW: I graduated school a while back–I’d tell you more but you won’t believe me–like I’m some kinna fake-something.

How about Richard-Wagging, Smarty-Pants next time? Wouldn’t want to use millennial expressions that hurt snowflake sensibilities. I hope the use of the word snowflake–implying whiteness–is not taken as such. Rather, it’s about heat and melting under zero-stress. Look at the bright side–again not implying whiteness where it’s not appreciated–it’s about cheer–you get to do something here; polish the fenders, clean the spokes, kick the tires, etc., etc., etc. Should I say, “You’re welcome?”

PS: Re: “I have a comment policy.”

There’s no need for me to read any of your policies/rules–you’re here. I can just type away freely and …you’ll kick in. Speaking of Step-and-Fetch-it… that’d be you.

Dear Abagond–it’s just me being me. No offense–K? I’m sure you’re a very nice fellow, smart and accomplished — a better man than I am. All those black folks in my list, and your donation, are better than me and far more accomplished.

LOL. You’re right. There’s absolutely no reason for you to read the comment policy. Just let Abagond do his thing according to the rules in that policy that you don’t need to read. I can’t wait to see the results. Couldn’t happen to a more deserving troll.

Of course Afrofem. It’s an honour to answer you! Especially because nobody has ever asked me this before — so thank you so much. It means a lot as there are so few of us & we get lost between two worlds here.

This will be a novel though (before I hit send) as there’s a lot. So I am going to make some tea first! (You may want to check back in a few hours… probably how long it will take me).

Also I didn’t know there was this ‘open thread’. What a brilliant concept! I’ve never seen it before on any other blog. I’ll bookmark it in my phone but I wonder how to access it otherwise… I suppose a link is at the bottom of every page somewhere.

Here I am again Afrofem (tea made/dishes done/laundry soaking/primary obligations ignored in favour of writing). Thanks for linking to Abagond’s instructions for linking things etc. on the other thread!

To begin answering your question:

I actually don’t identify as ‘Black’ (noun) or ‘black’ (adjective). I identify as ‘brown’ along w/ other ‘Arab’ Americans. (& I just realised I usually use lower case there… w/ brown… help me out grammar obsessives…). Though I usually only use that term (brown) when making some civil or human rights point to other Americans & in relation to other brown people (Latinos & East Asians & Native American etc.) regarding racism/discrimination/profiling etc. Usually amongst ourselves wether white or brown or black in colouring we just call ourselves ‘Arabs’. Not even ‘Arab American’.

On an even more confusing note — when it does not confuse the person further I explain I am not technically an ‘Arab’ but rather ‘Aramaen’. We are the indigenous minority from Lebanon that preceded the arrival of the Arabs (Muslims) c.700. My grandfather was born in the early 1890s in the mountains & spoke Aramaic. (The language Jesus spoke as well. It is Syriac. Basically Syrian). It has since died out in Lebanon as a stand alone language — but survives in the town of Maloula in Syria. Still linguists say that 50% of modern Lebanese language consists of Aramaic & 50% Arabic words.

Though I was raised by my father to be aware of being Aramaen vs. Arab — I don’t bring it up in every instance because some Christian Lebanese have used it in a political way in their vitriol against Arabs & Muslims. (The Phoenicianists during the Lebanon Civil War etc.). There is not enough time to get into that here but my dad was the opposite — he was very admiring of Muslims & Arabs & Bedouin etc. He wished he was an Arab! (People romanticise the Bedouin as they themselves wondered how people could live in houses and worst of all cities) & I was/am a human rights advocate defending Arabs & Muslims. (More so in the past than recently — due to some particular circumstances at present).

Re. what you read of my describing my dad. I sometimes (topically when necessary) describe him as a ‘black Lebanese’ or ‘black Arab’ — as well as others who look like him. (Such as that description regarding the Mt.Sinai/St.Catherines icons & the Greek priest — posted days ago). I only ever use a small ‘b’ as I/we simply use it as a descriptive adjective. I would never use it w/ an upper case ‘B’ (as w/ German capatalised nouns — it feels like a noun to me then). I never say that my dad is a Black American (AKA: African American). Or only Black without the word Lebanese or Arab. Though he has shared some of the same racism/discrimination/civil rights experiences as Black Americans (more on that follows) — in no manner was his overall experience the exact same experience.

For some historic background both of my family & Syrians in America:

My grandfather came here in the early 1900s (prior to 1910) following his older brother who came years earlier. They were then known as Turks or Syrians & considered Asian along w/ East Asians (from China etc.). My fathers birth certificate from Ohio in the late 1920s says “Syrian” vs. ‘White’. (I think some of my grandfather & grandmother’s various papers or in the census said ‘White’ then. It appears to have been very random. I never met them but from the few photos they look a bit more European than my dad did even when he was a baby. So that may have been a factor in a clerk writing “Syrian” re. my father).

In the 1920s the super racist Exclusion Act — created as a very narrow quota measure to keep Chinese out of the country — blocked Lebanese & Syrians & Palestinians & Egyptians etc. from coming to the States as well. A group of Syrian lawyers (most Syrians were Lebanese) went to court in an attempt to prove that like Southern Europeans they were not of the ‘Mongoloid race’ (Asian) but rather ‘Caucasian’. After some years they won the case & since then everyone whose heritage is from Southwest Asia or North Africa has been considered ‘White’ regardless of how they look or how society regards them.

The trouble is that for people who are not perceived to be ‘White’ & are discriminated against for that — there has been & is little or no legal recourse. (As I heard a Chinese American activist say in the 2000s: “It’s not enough that I see myself as American: other people have to see me as American too.”).

As civil rights laws advanced throughout the years subsequent generations such as mine — with brown skin and/or very Asiatic or Afro-Asiatic (in the case of North Africans) features — began to refer to themselves as ‘people of colour’ in order to stand up for their civil rights along w/ other POC whilst their parents continued to identify as ‘White’.

So to further answer your question about my dad: He is from the generation where they fought so hard to pass & be included as ‘White’ that they don’t want to identify as POC regardless of their actual colour or the discrimination they may still face or how proud they are to be Lebanese/Syrian/Palestinian/Arab. So it is largely generational & also split along colour lines. With people who are very dark/Asiatic/African looking & elderly preserving their (not always successful) attempt to pass & people who are pale — regardless of their age — not really caring because they experience very little racism/discrimination & younger generations (age 50s & younger) who are ‘White’ on paper but experience nearly constant racism & discrimination calling themselves POC etc.

My mum is a natural blonde w/ green eyes & pale skin from Germany. My dad looks looks like an indigenous ‘black’ Asiatic person from Southwest Asia. For example in Jamaica he was taken for Jamaican. My eldest brother is very pale & only burns in the sun (taking after my mother’s father/my grandfather). My other older brother looks exactly like Bob Marley (w/ curly hair but minus the locks) only w/ paler skin (though not as pale as my eldest brother): which is interesting since Bob Marley’s grandfather (father?) was a Syrian Jew (Jamaican). My sister has brown hair also but is very pale. I have brown skin & Asiatic eyes/features — though a bit paler than my dad & w/ a lot of my mother’s bone structure (high bridged nosed etc). My siblings did not/don’t experience racism/loss of civil rights as I have — as children or adults — so are not politicised like me.

My father experienced a lot of racism in his life but rather than that politicising him it just made him the typical furious POC father! Ranting & raving about each injustice to us for hours. Honestly as a child I just thought he had a terrible temper. When we were not allowed in restaurants or tennis courts etc. in the 60s & 70s in the South & he was fuming about it & I was so young I really did not understand why he was so furious. (I do remember being locked out of a hotel w/ the White woman not even engaging in an explanation/conversation w/ my father. I think it was in South Carolina).

He was VP of NBC Radio nationally & also the first ever program consultant whose colleagues were heads of recording companies & others in the music industry etc. So a lot of the anger was that despite his success he still felt mistreated. He was very wealthy & lived an hour outside of NYC & stayed at the Plaza & Carlisle & St.Regis & Waldorf there — but when we travelled down South we had to stay in these shabby motels next to cemeteries etc. until we got to Florida or Houston or wherever we were going on holiday or for his work. I didn’t put it together until later. (I just thought NY had better hotels!).

My parents married c.1950 in either Appalachian Ohio or Michigan… sorry I’ve forgotten this moment… (my dad is from an Ohio steel town — which he left for fame & fortune & never returned to). They were forced to marry outside in a garden. They were not allowed in the Church. It was about seventeen years before ‘Loving vs. Virginia’. My mother was a DP (displaced person refugee) from Berlin brought over by the Red Cross after the Allied bombings/WWII. My dad was a DJ & actor who she met over here. She was told by white people not to marry my dad because (whispering)”He’s a black man.”/(yelling)”He’s black!”/(Whitesplaining)”You won’t be able to get into a hotel.” etc. They were trying to ‘help’ her thinking she was a naive foreigner. (She thought they were racist & ignorant).

Later on w/ children — when they wanted to move out to the country from New Rochelle New York — a colleague at ABC suggested they move to Connecticut. They bought a house in Westport vs. surrounding towns because it was the only town that had broken the colour line/gentleman’s agreement & sold homes to POC & Jews. So that’s where I grew up from 1960 till high school graduation. But even there I was not allowed to swim in public or private pools as a toddler & kindergartner in the early 60s & frisked in shops as a child for zero reason & mocked by policemen as a child for my appearance & from childhood on called ‘Biafran’ & ‘Spic’ & ‘Greasy Arab’ etc. (Despite always being in the smallest most popular crowd! Which is absurd…). So despite the broken colour line it was not perfect (& is still full of people constantly patting themselves & each other on the back for how ‘liberal’ & ‘inclusive’ & ‘open-minded’ they are yet having meltdowns anytime someone tries to bring ‘low-income housing to town’ & taking them to court over that. I tried to volunteer for food banks etc. at local ancient Protestant churches but was told “Go to your own church!” & “We’re not Orthodox.” etc. after I explained that my Syriac/Melkite/Maronite/Orthodox Churches are far from here & hence difficult to get to w/ regularity. I responded: “But don’t you have Jewish people volunteering here?”. They answered: “Yes.” & then of course that was the end of the conversation… Sorry for the digression!).

Now I am living one town over (after a young marriage & divorce & years working in the NYC fashion industry) & experiencing an absurd level of civil & human rights violations including having been refused police protection (this is a long story). I have probably never lived in a more dog whistle racist town.

To cycle round to your question again. German was my first language along w/ English as my German grandmother moved in w/ us when I was one. (Sadly I’ve forgotten most of it now). And I consider myself equally German. It’s interesting that German people from Germany tell me I “look German” (I have my mother’s bone structure of high bridged nose & deepset Asiatic shaped eyes & flat high cheekbones) whilst Americans think I do not only because I have brown skin & brown hair. The colourism is absurd here in the States.

With all that said I am waiting for this 18th c. construct of race to disappear on bureaucratic forms etc. It is nearly impossible for Arabs & other mixed people of tiny demographics to fill out govt. forms. I just got the randomly sent census to fill out that asks ethnicity. But I also hate when White people say that people should be colour blind & culture blind etc. Where they get angry if we talk about it. As long as there’s discrimination there is going to be a conversation that requires labels.

So I hope that wasn’t too confusing! Here is an abbreviated version: small ‘b’ adjective only for Arab/Aramaic dad …I have a German mum …& I describe myself as half German/half Lebanese & sometimes ‘brown’ when discussing human rights etc… or make-up!

Now that I know about this open thread here I may be starting new ones all the time. Or every time something makes my head explode! We’ll see if this will be unhealthy or healthy for me!

Color issues among West Asians and North Africans seem to have a generational component to them. The older generations going to great lengths to be considered “White” and the younger generations actively embracing the term “People of Color”.

Some are pushing for a US census classification of MENA (Middle Eastern/North African) that also may draw in some Desi (South Asians such as Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans). Who knows how that will play out?

As a person of African descent, I watch it all with some degree of wariness. My primary concern is what does this mean for Black folk and their rights in this country? Will the MENA be allies in the struggle for full rights for all Americans or yet another classification of adversaries?

Arab American advocates/activists/orgs in the States have already been allies to Black Americans (African Americans here for ages vs. recent African immigrants — but for recent immigrants also). We have been fighting for a designation on the census etc. for years!

There are blond/blonde people who are Latino/Latina w/ paperwhite skin who experience little to no racism/loss of civil rights & are counted in society whilst we have never been counted. Nobody even knows how many of us there are! The same 3 million number has been used since after WWII! (A vague estimate done by looking at community orgs etc. How many people interact w/ those?). They have recourse to respond to civil rights abuses that we don’t have. Some of us suffer racism & civil rights abuses FOR looking — to White people & other Americans (Asian etc.) — like Black Americans & Latino Americans. Imagine if every Black or Latino person who was obviously not White — so not benefitting from being White — was forced by law to check the “White” box. It’s surreal!!! & VERY VERY painful every single day after day after day. We are the most hated people on the planet yet people want us to remain invisible here & call us ‘White’. As if we are part of the VERY people who have demonised us & continue to demonise us for centuries. It’s a nightmare!!!

At this moment I have almost completely been robbed of my civil & human rights here — due to racism due to my looks. (A very long story for being the whisteblower in my building & frighteningly harrassed by the landlord & his henchman & seeking help from police & local govt. & being treated as if of COURSE I did something wrong or ignored… when I have never even had a parking or traffic ticket).

We have been fighting for this tooth & nail for ages. We have been here since the 16th c. We came here w/ the Spaniards. We come in all colours. So some of us experience racism for our colour.

The only thing wrong w/ ‘MENA’ is the name. We never use the name ‘Middle East/Middle Eastern’ to describe ourselves. It is a name created by the Americans when they got involved in ‘helping’ (inc. profiting from) Saudi Arabia after oil was discovered (Aramco etc.). Before that it was termed the Near East & the Orient. We call/called ourselves Arab/Arabs. Or East/Eastern (Oriental)… w/ North Africa/Africans Western/The West (Maghreb in Arabic). There is no ‘Middle East’. People put it on their restaurants here only because they’re afraid if they write ‘Arab food/restauraunt’ nobody will come — since everyone is allowed to hate us. People call us Middle Eastern (looking etc.) only because they have been indoctrinated to erroneously believe that the word ‘Arab’ is an insult! So now rather than an ‘Arab’ box — which we have been fighting for for years — there is is this. (Which not all of us are thrilled w/ the acronym. After 40+ years of the ADC & others fighting for an ‘Arab’ box/count/hate crime distinction).

The other issue is since North Africans who are not ‘Arab’ (Kabile & Tuareg etc.) but indigenous have been occupied by Arabs for hundreds of years w/ Arabic becoming the Lingua Franca etc. — they are (not unreasonably) questioning why ‘ME’ for ‘Middle East’ comes before ‘NA’ for ‘North African’. I get where they are coming from… not sure of a perfect solution… They want it to be ‘NAME’ etc. (There are also other propositions).

I love everyone but we are not Persians (Irananian/Afghani) or Indian/Pakistani. Indians etc. have not & do not have to cope w/ the specific hatred that we Arabs have directed against us unless they are MISTAKEN for an ARAB. (Aside from the facts that it’s a completely different culture & language etc. & we have been here since the 1500s whilst most Indian Americans came here after the 1965 Immigration Act). May God bless them but Arab & Chinese Americans — the latter who have been here for hundreds of years — are STILL WAITING to be seen as ‘American’. Indians don’t have literally THOUSANDS of film & TV programs demonising them & hence indoctrinating the populace to HATE us… whilst actually knowing ZERO about us.

It’s disturbing & VERY saddening for me as an Arab American advocate/activist since age 30 (1990) who has walked hand in hand w/ Native Americans (that I did before 1990 due to personal NA friends… since I was 17… inc. people who were arrested w/ Leonard Peltier…) & Black Americans for various civil/human rights matters — that anyone would think that us even being COUNTED would take away anything from Black Americans. The very few black Arabs that are here in the States are not allowed to check ‘African American/Black’ either. They do not have any box to check. It is extremely painful & frustrating to be called ‘White’ & experience daily/weekly/monthly civil & human rights violations for NOT being ‘White’. I’m not sure how it would injure anyone for them (Arabs who may look like they are from Ghana etc.) & us to not have to be literally forced to check the ‘White’ box. A man went to court over this regarding his specific case. He was petitioning to check ‘Black’ for a really important legal reason & was being forced to check ‘White’. On some papers one has a choice so they could check ‘African American/Black’. In many legal scenarios they do NOT have a choice. They MUST check ‘White’. So it’s not like the Black/AA populace is ‘losing’ them to some other ‘side’.

There is also the scenario of people (as in my family) who are various colours in the same family. We are all Arabs. I had a black Lebanese girlfriend (former coworker) who came to the States & was seeing a son of Black African immigrants here because once you come here it’s as if you are slotted by colour only. We are Arabs. That’s how we ‘identify’. Not by colour. (I have never been exposed to colour based racism among uneducated Arabs that people describe in Arab countries etc. I have only read about it very recently. & I am in my 50s).

I am so surprised at this. This makes me sad that somebody would think there was anything bad about our fight to be counted & have legal assistance that others are afforded for ‘race’ based crimes against us & civil rights abuses. If you go online you can see all the support that Arab American orgs & also journalists/news websites have given to Native people & Black people & Asian people & Latino people. Faith Hope & the greatest of these Love ❤

Or to take your point about possible division — then black Arabs (& other North African black people who are not ‘Arab’ such as Tuareg) should LEGALLY be allowed to check ‘Black/African American’ box (in every legal circumstance).

The trouble w/ this would be the inevitable objection from some who would not unjustifiably feel that those who did that were usurping 400+ years of Black AA history & civil/human rights battles etc.

This is a tangle. My head now hurts now (literally got a headache from this!). I get what you are saying Afrofem… but what is another option? Three kisses.

Re. “adversaries”. I am one of the Arab American people who have been fighting behind the scenes for 25+ years for a designation other than ‘White’ — why do you think I may turn out to be an “adversary”? Every single one of our Arab American civil rights orgs is hand in hand w/ Black Americans & Native Americans & Asian Americans & Latino Americans. Anyone can see that online & in the streets & behind the scenes…

I hope it’s all right if I step in for a second to ask for clarification on one point.

I’m aware of the difference between Persians and Arabs, but I had been under the impression that in mainstream U.S. society the two groups tended to face the same types of discrimination, especially if they are perceived as being Muslim (whether they actually are or not).

You explained very well why you feel South Asians shouldn’t be included in the proposed MENA/NAME designation. Could you please share your thoughts about why or why not Persians should be included in it? What crucial distinctions do you see between Arabs and Persians?

I’ve been misunderstood here. Now that MENA is probably going to happen I think it is good that people are included. It’s not like I want MENA & then everyone but Arabs excluded. What we Arabs have been fighting for on our own for decades is an ‘Arab’ box. Like Latinos we are different colours & from different national borders & in our case different religions also (Christians/Jews/Muslims & even Athiest Marxists etc.). It is only a reference to language (as w/ Latinos as some are from German & Italian families that moved to various Latin American countries & some are indigenous peoples & some from Spanish families & some descended from African enslaved people etc.).

Firstly: Some ways we are not the same as Persians & Indians. (Though I stand by & love them as fellow human beings). Persian & Indian actors & actresses play us as ‘terrorists’ & rapists & sexualised women in fake ‘belly dance’ dress (& all the other tropes that injure us in our daily lives) in racist films that we refuse to act in. This is a big problem for us. We don’t play ourselves as terrorists. We don’t play ourselves in whorish looking fake ‘belly dance’ clothing which we have NEVER in history worn. (That is not our traditional clothing People! Nor is the turban w/ the jewel!). It’s infuriating.

Secondly. We have different languages & different foods & different histories than Persians (Farsi etc.). The Middle East term is completely racist & dismissive & meaningless. It’s a Western construct for ‘all those brown people over there who seem similar to us’ (only because most Americans know nothing about the various peoples in Southwest Asia & Central Asia & South Asia).

The confusion comes from Americans lumping all Muslims together & believing that all Southwest Asians — Lebanese & Syrians & Palestinians & Jordanians & Iraqis etc. are Muslims. There are Chinese & Tibetan etc. Muslims also. There are Muslims everywhere. So it’s a bit weird that Iranians & Afghanis who are Persian are linked to Southwest Asians. Different region & different languages & foods & customs & history etc. What is the reasoning behind it?

Lastly until the very recent anti-Muslim hatred it was Arabs & hence Arab Americans that were & still are hated at every turn. We are HATED even when we are Christian. Example: James Zogby (Orthodox Xtian Pali American) of the Arab American Institute. He behaves like a saint & yet is constantly demonised by anti-Arabists. Where as a lot of Muslims who are NOT Arabs would stop being hated if they were no longer Muslims.

We are hated for who we ARE. Not ONLY for our religion or politics etc. Because unlike these other poulations we have been demonised in novels/films/television since the crusades. Like Black Americans we can’t un-demonise ourselves by being good little POC & changing religions etc.

Muslims from India are hated here by many. Christians from India are NOT. Muslims from Iran are hated here. Armenian Christians from Iran are NOT. Muslim Lebanese Arabs are hated here. Christian Lebanese Arabs are hated here. Muslim Palestinian Arabs are hated here. Christian Palestinian Arabs are hated here. The hatred against us is for being Arab. Due to years of misinformation/demonisation. See Jack Shaheen’s books & films (‘The TV Arab’/’Reel Bad Arabs’) & read Edward Said’s ‘Orientalism’.

As I wrote previously: the only time a South Asian has been killed here was because they were mistaken for an Arab and/or a Muslim.

Alex Odeh (may his memory be eternal) was killed by the JDL for being head of an American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee chapter in California in the 1980s. He was not a Muslim — he was Christian. We are not supposed to exist in the view of many here. Wheras an Indian Christian. An Iranian Christian (Armenian population from there) does NOT have that problem.

Sorry — my head is killing me from this now & I am out of aspirin! Three Arab kisses…

“North Africans who are not ‘Arab’ (Kabile & Tuareg etc.) but indigenous have been occupied by Arabs for hundreds of years w/ Arabic becoming the Lingua Franca etc. — they are (not unreasonably) questioning why ‘ME’ for ‘Middle East’ comes before ‘NA’ for ‘North African’. I get where they are coming from… not sure of a perfect solution… They want it to be ‘NAME’ etc.”

Ah yes, naming conventions. Especially government bureaucratic naming conventions. They rarely fit the people being named, they seem to exist solely for the convenience of the bureaucrats.

The term, Hispanic was meant to cover any immigrant of any country or color from a “historically Spanish” country of origin. People of Asian, Arab, African and European descent all found themselves designated “Hispanic” by bureaucrats in Washington, D.C..

I get your frustration about the MENA designation. I have read dark skinned Egyptians and Sudanese immigrants who also complain bitterly about being officially “White” while being treated as “Other” in their day to day interactions with other Americans.

Thank you for your comprehensive response. It was very helpful and informative.

I didn’t know that Persian peoples were using the same negative anti-Arab stereotypes in their media as the West. I’m sorry to hear it.

I guess the one point I’m still unclear on is this. I fully understand your point about South Asians only being considered terrorists etc. if they are mistaken for Arabs. But I had thought that in the U.S. and other western nations, Persians such as Iranians faced the same stereotypes as Arabs even when the distinction between the two groups is made because they are both seen as part of the over-arching Middle Easterner category used by the West and due to association with such events as the U.S.-Iranian hostage crisis in the late ’70s. Is this incorrect?

Also, please let me state my understanding so far of your explanation about the Arab category and then you can correct any part where it is faulty. I like the comparison you made to the Latin@ category. That has often been used incorrectly to signify race, but increasingly the forms are being revised to wording like: “Are you Hispanic/Latino of any race?” I also remember that in your comment above, you said that you are actually Aramaen in ethnicity. So I think what you are suggesting is a category that would not just cover those people who are ethnically Arab but also those who are culturally Arab in the same way that someone can have 0% Spanish blood but still be culturally Hispanic?

Sorry — you have misunderstood me. The Iranian & Indian actors that portray us as terrorists & ‘belly dancers’ & other racist anti-Arab tropes (when we refuse as we are fighting that racism) are doing that in AMERICAN & US film & television. I was not referring to Iranian & Indian films.

(Feeling to ill to continue. I’ll read your response & that of Afrofem later & see if I can answer more then).

I read that linguistically/historically it originally described the people who lived in the desert. (In Southwest Asia). Later on of course it referred to people who lived in Arabia. (Still holding to first definition here — aside from those in Arabia who lived in the mountains etc.). Later on after the Arab conquests & finally Pan-Arabism movement it was/is used to described everyone who speaks Arabic (or like myself are descendants of people from countries where Arabic is spoken now — even if the language was not spoken there when their ancestors left that place).

It is now a language designation only. Unless you are from the original people it described (first explanation above). Sort of… because added to that are all the other things the word has taken on…

I am going to be honest & say I have no clue how Persian (Iranian etc.) Americans feel as I don’t see them in our Arab American civil & human rights orgs I don’t see them posting on our blogs (Electronic Intifada etc.) or attending our meetings & marches. I haven’t noticed their own parallel orgs/websites/blogs etc.

You are linking us. I am not aware of a link. I would love to see something from them. I haven’t. As Lebanese & Palestinians we have more in common w/ Native Americans & South Africans (during Apartheid) than Persians.

Also as I described: in the orgs I have belonged to & work w/ supporting Arab American civil rights & Palestinian human rights etc.; we work alongside other Black & Native & Latino & Justice groups — yet I don’t recall any Persian/Iranian (or Indian) presence.

Palis & Natives have loads in common.

If they (Iranians/Persians) feel marginilised & treated badly as Arab Americans have been — they are not making their presence known to us. …& we are pretty hard to miss.

The Hostage Crisis was a moment in time. Arabs have been consistently demonised since the Crusades. Including for entertainment. We were demonised in the Disney film Aladin! (sp?). Children are indoctrinated to hate us from watching cartoons. (As happened to Black Americans). A different scenatio than w/ Persians & Indians. As I explained they are usually hated for being mistaken for US. We ARE us.

I apologize for misunderstanding some of what you wrote. It’s becoming clearer to me now, and I thank you for your patience in explaining things to me.

I’ve seen some cooperative interaction (on a very small and local level) between Persians and Arabs, but as I think about it, I believe all of those groups were organized around being Muslim American, which would give them a different focus from the types of organizations you described. And as an outsider who was only aware of these groups on the periphery, I couldn’t begin to say whether there were any internal divisions between the Arab members and the Persian members. Quite possibly there were and I was simply was unaware. You’ve given me a lot to think about.

Yes Muslim groups contain various ethnicities interacting. I cross their paths as well. (Bullied off my hometown blog for defending Syrian refugees & had the whole post archived at CAIR & the Arab American Museum as an example of anti-Arab racism!).

As an Arab & artist who grew up surrounded by music (music industry dad & musician brother) & being in NYC & New Haven — some of my fellow Arabs are Jewish & some Christian & some Muslim.

You know when your are there. Wether the person making you feel you are there is eighty years old or three years old. As an Arab sometimes they are black sometimes blond. Gay or straight. Christian or Muslim or Jew. It’s a culture. People telling you it’s an honour to meet you. Or taking five minutes to ask about your family before talking. It’s not about religion & it’s not about colour.

Yes to you on technically being from pre-Islamic indigenous Aramaic speaking mountain people but alright w/ being called ‘Arab’. (See other responses to the lovely Afrofem for my answer to her question of what it means to me to be ‘Arab’ including my poem).

So if that ship had not sailed (as it will most likely be MENA now if anything) I would have been fine w/ ‘Arab’. As it was the ARAB American Anti-Discrimination Committee I belonged to that championed that.

Plus we had a civil war in Lebanon between Christians & Muslims where Christians over there made that an issue. My family are from the ancient Christian indigenous Church & I don’t want to step into that racist politicised anti-Muslim twisting of history/dna/religion. The reality is that many local Muslims there are also descended from indigenous Lebanese Aramaens/Canaanites/Phoenicians. (Nat Geo did a doc on a Lebanese scientist that proved this w/ dna tests there). When the Arab Muslims came c.700 they intermarried & also local people converted to Islam. Christians retained the Aramaic language longer — that is all. (Muslims have to read the Quran in Arabic & our Christian hymns & Liturgy are in Aramaic).

Sorry for missing that question earlier. I literally became ILL from blogging earlier! Hahahahaha. I think I must have got dehydrated — due to my mad long responses. I had to go downstairs (live above a wine merchant) & get ginger ale & coke to hydrate myself w/ something w/ sugar in it (headache from low blood sugar). Three kisses ❤

Now you have really got me thinking — ! — why in decades I have come across so very few Persians (Iranians & some Afghanis)/Indians/Pakistanis (I was being charitable there: NONE that I can recall) over the decades in Arab civil/human rights orgs or at talks/film festivals/protests/blog posts/ etc. defending causes dear to Arab Americans (Palestinians/murders of foreign human rights activists helping Palestinians/former occupation & merciless bombings of Lebanon/Saudi Arabia in Yemen/Starvation in Syria & Yemen/Syrian refugee crisis/US military intervention/gang rape & murder by US military in Iraq/US torture of prisoners/Assad/murder of Copts etc…). Even when we ourselves are on the Muslim page… & even when Ashkenazi Jews both American & Israeli are doing justice work for Palestinians. So where are these other ‘brown’ people we are lumped in with.

I think this is because we have been stigmatised so severely that we are like a plague & they want to stay as far away from us as possible… so as not to be associated w/ us. Probably also because other Americans confuse them w/ us… 😦

The Beatitudes/Sermon on the Mount comes into sharper focus for me day by day…

Thanks for the link to the thread earlier. On it I read your post about Palestinians (not the reason you sent the link). Thank you for that. It was very comprehensive. We’re on the same page. I believe in a one state solution. A secular democracy (neither Muslim or Jewish) w/ separation of religion & state & w/ a brand new name. Hoping & praying.

I’ve been practising BDS before it had a name (since about 1990). Well… the boycotting part I mean…

There was some serious hatred of ‘Arabs’ in that thread. It may keep me from posting here again. (I’m not going to decide at 1.30am!). Especially from someone w/ the word ‘satan’ in his screenname. Perhaps the real Satan given his post… Some milder Syrian & Arab hating also… Frankly depressing… being hated from every corner. I suspect the people making these comments do not know a lot of ‘Arabs’…

“There was some serious hatred of ‘Arabs’ in that thread. It may keep me from posting here again. (I’m not going to decide at 1.30am!). Especially from someone w/ the word ‘satan’ in his screenname.”

Things are not always what they seem at first glance. The commenter, Satanforce employs a style that uses acidic satire and “faux” devils advocate arguments to poke fun at racists, bigots and other commenters when the spirit moves him.

I suppose you have to be a regular commenter to understand his deeper observations and meaning.

I still have trouble telling when Satanforce is joking and when he’s being serious.

Zoe, I hope you decide to continue commenting, but only if you feel able to do so without incurring headaches and emotional duress. Health always should take precedence, and it’s ok to decide to stop if the negatives for yourself outweigh the benefits. I’m used to safe-space environments myself, and Abagond works on a free-speech model that means hatred and bigotry sometimes are freely expressed in the threads. It can be quite an adjustment at first.

I’ve already learned a lot from you and I appreciate your sharing of your thoughts and experiences. Don’t worry about missing the one question; we threw a lot of questions at you all at once. No doubt it was a tad overwhelming. My apologies.

First of all: this has been driving me mad for about the last day. For some weird reason the interface (right word?) for the WordPress comments on this thread only on Abagond’s site (not the Latasha comments) AND not from comments I am getting at the same time from a WordPress site in Lebanon — is coming to my inbox in the full website form vs. mobile form.

This is a problem because I’m reading it on a tiny iPhone 4 & I can barely see the type in that mode. I have to use a glass (I’m a goldsmith & artist) to look at the screen to be able to read it. (Glad I’m home looking deficient in technical knowledge & not being observed!).

Sol & Af — I didn’t feel ill from the interchange & comments on the thread. The reason I was laughing about it was because I typed for so long I literally became dehydrated & got a headache & then felt ill! (Note the laughter in my previous post). Also I had no food in the house & hadn’t gone shopping yet (no money for food day before). So ill due to my wordiness making me forget to drink vs. other people’s words. Which is just… funny. Honestly this could have happened even if I was typing about shoes or clothes or recipes! I use a lot of words! I also forget to eat & drink…

There is no “safe space” in Arab culture! We bring babies to Church w/ no “cry room”. (Laughed when I read about those in some US Churches recently. Can men & women go in there to cry & make noise also?!). We bring them to formal music performances too — where they scream & yell & it’s literally considered part of the performance. (There’s even some word for it!). The beautiful Nubian musician & oud player Hamza El Din (Memory eternal! ❤ ) when I saw him perform stopped playing for a moment after a baby cried loudly & on & on to say that it was a beautiful part of the music.

Traditionally & formally after age seven children are considered to be open to everything adult but in truth babies are involved in all of our lives from the start. (Note the babies on men’s shoulders at protests & then the protesters get attacked & the children are at risk. Even I — who loves kids everywhere — have a problem w/ this. I have argued w/ Palestinian — male — friends about this! As a woman it makes me crazy!).

Israelis criticise us for posting photos online & in protests of bodies gruesomely destroyed in Israel bombings etc. because they never post photos of their people shredded from Palestinian suicide bombers etc. (I really really respect them for that but we post the photos out of desperation to show the world. Of course they have every reason to feel desperate also… Respect…).

If you grow up in Arab culture you are in the thick of it & all of it (inc. anger/trauma/complexity) is believed to empower you & make you more resilient. Which it does — but being half German I get the other way as well (Victorian concept of shielding children from adversity as much as possible). Having lived w/ my father who went w/ the Arab concept — I can say I am very resilient to adversity…

I’m on the fence about it re. raising children but after growing up w/ the former I can say that a few racist anti-Arab comments on this blog are not bothering me or making me not feel “safe”! Rather they make me ANGRY… hahahahaha… I doubt these people (& more than only Satan) even know any Arabs. Except perhaps some shop owners who treat them like dross.

Not everyone who is Arab is a working class immigrant in Michigan or LA etc. who has been indoctrinated w/ the larger White societies racism toward Black people. After reading that string of anti-Arab comments on that thread from various people I searched online last night for Arab American/Black American relations/interaction & that was all I found! Perhaps because I’m from NYC w/ music industry black Arab dad & Berliner mum but my only experience of Arabs & Black people (American or also from Africa etc.) is not the one I read about online of suspicious “Arab” shopkeepers who consider themselves ‘White’ making people in Black American neighbourhoods feel bad in myriad ways. Then again New Yorkers are freaks of nature (Berliners are too). So my experience is probably not great to measure by.

As I said Satanforce was not the only person making anti-Arab comments on that thread. Or that I have come across in the States in my life. (I am in my 50s). As I stated here earlier EVERYONE hates us. White/Black/Asian(we are Asian also but I mean East & Central & South Asian vs. Southwest Asian)/Latino(who are not Arab Latino!). This is nothing NEW to me! It is really angering though. The stereotyping & stigmatising & hatred from EVERYONE.

Because of PRECISELY this I very often say to myself ‘From this point forward I am ONLY going to spend my time with/on other Arabs (& Germans only from Germany & Londoners & Africans etc. who are a bit more nuanced in their perception of Arabs & Lebanese than most Americans are).

Lastly re. these comments: as I stated many more anti-Arab/Arab HATING comments were made in that (Trump/immigrant ban) thread — not only the one I copied from Satanforce (& I have heard the same from Black Americans for years… along w/ other Americans…). But re. that particular comment I copied — I REALLY don’t think he/she was ‘joking’. Read in context — inc. other anti-Arab/Arab hating statements he/she made before & after that paragraph it is very clear he/she was not joking.

I am famished now from all this! Today it made me hungry vs. ill. I noticed people writing about recipes & food on this thread & also reading through it it looks like Af is in or near Seattle & Sol in Cali. I can no longer eat wheat (or barley or rye etc. due to celiac) OR corn OR beans (legumes of any kind — except in very tiny amounts). I miss burritos etc. Thoughts? (Having possibly encountered this in CA & WA). Wrapping things in a piece of lettuce (suggestion online) is not at all the same! There is Ethiopian Teff which is gluten-free to make our Arab & Ethiopian very thin flatbread from (like a tortilla): but what to replace beans with (?).

Also — almost forgot! — I have no trouble w/ Abagond’s freedom in allowing what he allows in comment threads. I have no trouble w/ Abagond. Satanforce & others who make Arab-hating comments are not invited to my hafle (party) though… poor Satanforce & his/her mean friends… standing out in the rain… missing the dancing & food… 😦

I think the biggest problem we have here at the moment is Islamophobia. The whole brexit campaign and now the general election has focused on immigration and the influx of (Muslim) refugees coming into the country in the last couple of decades. People seem to very much like the Poles, for example, because they ‘work hard for little pay’ (hmm) whereas Muslims take our jobs and claim benefits. I’m not sure how that works as one can’t have both but ignorance is pretty blind, not to mention stupid! That’s not to say bog standard racism doesn’t exist because it does, I witness it often but I do have my own unscientific belief that things are not as bad here as they are for poc over there!

Your personal experiences with white American men sound vile, it makes me shudder and I feel for you.Any guy calling you ‘exotic’ in that context and foofing your hair needs a kick where it hurts! I’m white so I can only empathise, I’ve not had these particular experiences but I relate as a woman and have many friends of different nationalities who have shared horrible stories of their experiences with me. There have been times when I’ve had to take a stand when I’ve seen unacceptable behaviour; I was in the bakers once and the woman behind the counter completely ignored the young lady in front of me like she wasn’t even there and came straight to me; The young lady was in full jihab. I wanted to scream at the shop assistant but I held it down and calmly told her to serve her other customer first, I’m quite an aggressive person at times so it wasn’t easy.

I don’t know about over there but here women and elderly people definitely get the brunt of this kind of subtle abuse, I think people believe they are easier targets and less likely to retaliate.These are things that make me ashamed of my fellow countrymen. We fought for 6 years against Hitler in WW2 and suffered almost 48,000,000 fatal casualties so why would people think it a good idea to become a fascist state now?! I’ve never witnessed racist violence first hand, thank God.

I’ve had many nick names; Zo, Zozo, Zozzie, MissZee. My Boyfriend calls me Zowena which I find very odd, lol. Mostly now just Zo, when I was a kid more often Zozo. Personally I like Zoe best. 3 Kisses back at ya xxx

Thanks for your answer — I look forward to exchanges w/ you in future… God willing.

Can I use your word ‘foofing’ (sp?) for what boys/men did to my hair? I was looking for a word for that! The mental thing is my hair is really ordinary but I don’t know any white colour girls (my older sister for one!) who that happens to. So it’s like they think/feel they are Paul Gaugin when he first set foot in Tahiti! Circling the natives & poking them hahaha.

That happens to me also in shops. The being left standing there for the time it would take to carve the shop person in marble. But not because I wear the veil/hijab — as I am Orthodox Christian. Besides amber colour skin I think it is because I am tiny. Like I am a young teenage POC waiting for my mum etc. (Look at the lines in the face & dark circles under the eyes People! Not size. Fifteen year olds don’t have those).

So funny that you prefer ‘Zo’ (secondary to preference for our full name). I don’t like it because people in the States call me that when they think that is how ‘Zoé’ is pronounced. & as I am Orthodox this is my guardian saint I took at my chrismation (confirmation). So they are mispronouncing my saint’s name.

It’s not the name in the thread on my posts here that worries me — it’s the avatar I got! It gives me panic attacks every time I look at it. Hahahahaha. Have a good look — it’s completely mental. I want to change it for my own later. (I don’t know how yet).

I love Londoners! (Because New Yorker w/ Berliner mum? & The art world triad). I always get on w/ them. Unlike a lot of Americans they don’t seem to think I’m a lunatic (yet) or too wordy (yet). & gotta love London men still opening the door for girls & women. Because here I open the door for men (& everyone else) & they make a point of no longer opening doors (on the main… there is always the exception).

I lived in Cali during the ’90s but now only go back for the occasional visit. I don’t know any good substitutes for beans offhand, sorry. Maybe just load the burrito up with veggies? Squash would get you that mix of firmness and mushiness you’re missing from the beans, even if the taste is different.

PS: It’s great that you get involved! I’m the same! Re. getting angry & speaking up! I did that also — especially when I lived in New York (I’m an hour outside it now on the train).

I have so many stories of completely mental behaviour of people — where I felt compelled to step in to protect their children etc. Once I broke up a street fight of some kids beating up a young man who looked Jewish (Ashkenazi Jewish/White). I just grabbed the kid’s umbrella he was using as a weapon & astonishingly afterward this kid apologised to me.

People need to get involved. Despite the horror that can follow such as happened in Portland Oregon lately w/ the White Supremicist (sp?) stabbing/killing the people who attempted to protect the two girls in hijab. But what is the alternative? An Orwellian society? Btw — have we heard from those girls in hijab or their families (if they are too modest to talk to journalists & rights groups)? — Z

Thanks so very much for these recipe suggestions — I will definitely try them. I’m sure they’ll be good.

Also thanks for the links to the articles re. the hijabi girls in Portland.

I won’t be posting here anymore — after the comment just sent to my inbox. (Good thing I live above a wine merchant). You can find that on the Malik Anbar post. You can also see my reply & a PS there.

I don’t want to try to communicate here anymore. If you really want to say anything else to me perhaps Abagond can give you my email address. (Perhaps you could show him this for permission — if he missed seeing it). Because I won’t be checking back here & I’m going to unsubscribe. (If I can figure out how). If not: I have really enjoyed communicating w/ you & everyone. Three kisses Solitaire!

@ Abagond

Dear Abagond. Thank you for your hospitality these last few days! It’s a brilliant blog w/ some brilliant & funny commenters. Faith Hope & the greatest of these Love. ❤ Zoé

I am saddened that I was away when you wrote your message. I wish I was here to see it and let you know….Thank you for the knowledge you shared. I learned more from you than I feel you learned from me.

I love your sarcastic quips, but I came across this 2009 comment of your on the Race Conscious thread and was blown away. Wow! What a box of hidden treasure. I wish I had your composure. That behavior would have sent me into a cursing fit.

I’ve been rereading Arthur Conan Doyle recently, and I ran across this in a short story:

“Throughout the three kingdoms men discussed the case”

Years ago it didn’t make an impression, but this time the phrase leapt out at me.

So I did a little googling, and found this in an 1898 article by Doyle:

“The town of Blandford presented last week an interesting field for the man who should desire to make a study of the varied types taken from far and wide in the three kingdoms and broken in by that great levelling machine the British Army.”

That and the Wikipedia page on the wars confirmed that “the three kingdoms” was a euphemism for the UK.

It’s not easy to google because there is a Chinese classic called The Three Kingdoms that is difficult to boolean out of the search, and I didn’t want to spend a lot of time on it.

However, I did spend enough time to find a quote from a US periodical, The Literary Digest, c. 1900-01, that suggests the euphemism was used here, too:

“The literary man in politics is a much commoner sight among out British cousins than it is here. Not only do the great universities of the three kingdoms have their special representatives in parliament….”

This title of this British article from Jan. 2013 suggests that the term is still at least somewhat in use:

Admittedly none of this explains why we’re called the United States and they’re called the United Kingdom. My gut feeling still is that it has to do with the manner of unification, the balance of power, etc. The king consolidated everything into one kingdom to solidify his power. The states voluntarily formed a republic with power divided between the states and the federal government.

It’s interesting that even though the three kingdoms were united into one kingdom long ago, this phrase continues to survive.

It’s very clear that there were multiple kingdoms that became one kingdom. The Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England were combined into the Kingdom of Great Britain in 1707. Before that, they were in personal union but separate entities.

The kingdoms of Scotland and England were individual sovereign states, with their own parliaments, judiciary, and laws, though both were ruled by James in personal union.

The Union was a personal or dynastic union, with the Crown of Scotland remaining both distinct and separate—despite James’s best efforts to create a new “imperial” throne of “Great Britain”. However, England and Scotland would continue to be sovereign states, sharing a monarch with Ireland

The Kingdom of Great Britain, officially Great Britain, was a sovereign state in western Europe from 1 May 1707 to 31 December 1800. The state came into being following the Treaty of Union in 1706, ratified by the Acts of Union 1707, which united the kingdoms of England and Scotland to form a single kingdom encompassing the whole island of Great Britain and its outlying islands. It did not include Ireland, which remained a separate realm….

On 1 January 1801, the kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland were merged to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. In 1922, five-sixths of Ireland seceded from the United Kingdom and the state was renamed the “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” — a title it has retained to date.

There have been two issues at hand here: Abagond’s initial query of why United Kingdom is singular and United States is plural, and then a subsequent discussion of whether the UK is composed of former kingdoms or merely countries. One of these issues has been definitively settled (see above).

Again, as already addressed upthread, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and NORTHERN IRELAND, is a single kingdom made up of four so-called countries, including “Northern Ireland” which was never a “kingdom.”

But it’s necessary to overlook that fact in order to make another desperate, month-long attempt to be right when clearly wrong.

^I don’t need to cite the fact that Northern Ireland was never a kingdom. It is a fact, just like I don’t need to cite the fact that Montana was never a kingdom.
And of course I said nothing about Scotland, so that’s just obfuscating in a continuing, desperate and failed attempt to be right when clearly wrong.

Leaving out Wales and Northern Ireland, the United Kingdom is still composed of two formerly independent kingdoms: the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England. Therefore Abagond’s observation is valid.

The Northern Ireland objection is disingenuous. Unification took place between the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain. That most of Ireland later seceded doesn’t retcon historical fact.

Ultimately, though, whether Northern Ireland counts or not doesn’t matter. There are demonstrably two former kingdoms in the United Kingdom. Abagond ‘s wondering why the term isn’t plural is perfectly reasonable.

^I’ve never seen such desperate pedantry to try to appear right, when clearly wrong. But such behaviour is to be expected when lips are glued to abagond’s rear.

What I said was ” Again, as already addressed upthread, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and NORTHERN IRELAND, is a single kingdom made up of four so-called countries, including “Northern Ireland” which was never a “kingdom.”:

And no that statement included “nothing about Scotland.” But ignoring the fact that Northern Ireland was never a kingdom clearly refutes abagond’s implied theory. It’s too bad the fear of correcting abagond is so strong that inaccurate information is routinely accepted on this blog.

It’s too bad a several-months-long personal vendetta against Abagond is so strong that inaccurate information is routinely put forth on topics having nothing to do with the original cause of the vendetta, and that unwitting commenters like Rex who think they’re participating in a low-key friendly discussion suddenly find themselves being berated, insulted, and gaslighted. Where is poor Rex? Hasn’t commented in a month or so now.

^Proof positive that this was never about the name “United Kingdom.” It’s about attacking anyone who dares correct an incorrect premise of abagond’s statement, which has been going on for well over a year.

We’ve seen the same deflections to lies over and over again from lips glued to abagond’s rear, including this most recent lie about “poor Rex” being “berated, insulted and gaslighted”, which of course never happened on this thread.

“The British themselves use “the three kingdoms” as a nickname/pseudonym/euphemism for the UK”

And that’s an opinion (and I’d love to see the poll used to determine what “British themselves” do), which has nothing to do with the official name, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The “three kingdoms” refers historically to England, Scotland, and Ireland, which is not a country of the modern UK. That’s based on the Wars of the Three Kingdoms which took place in the 17th century. Look it up.

And of course this new assertion made above is based on a clear misconception since UK was originally formed by uniting two kingdoms (Great Britain and Ireland, which later left the union prompting a name change), not three.

And of course the singular “Kingdom” in the name is in fact a direct reference to “one kingdom” as specified in the the Acts of Union of 1800:

“That Great Britain and Ireland shall upon Jan. 1, 1801, be united into one kingdom;
and that the titles appertaining to the crown, &c. shall be such as his Majesty shall be pleased to appoint.”

So that’s why it’s “United Kingdom,” not “United Kingdoms”. And based on the Acts of Union, all the pedantry about Scotland, Wales, etc. being former “kingdoms” is completely irrelevant.

“I made an innocent observation and then got kicked in the face. At least that is how it seems.”

How dishonest. You asked a question, I gave you a correct answer, which you ignored and instead accepted the incorrect information because it supported the incorrect premise of your “innocent observation”.

^Pendantry at its finest. Of course “so funny the stories people make up” was not in reference to “They didn’t unite willingly nor without bloodshed”, rather the entire comment, specifically the first two sentence:

“I doubt that’s by accident. If the English monarchy had used the plural term “United Kingdoms,” it would have been a constant reminder that the three Celtic countries not only used to be independent nations but also separate kingdoms ruled over by their own royal families.”

So yes, it’s a fabricated opinion passed off as proof.

And the only reason I mentioned “Wars of the Three Kingdoms ” was to educate on the origin of the term “three kingdoms” in response to the other fabricated opinion that “The British themselves use “the three kingdoms” as a nickname/pseudonym/euphemism for the UK”

So once again, fabricated opinions followed by pedantry, and still just as wrong as before.

A fabricated opinion? The only way an opinion can be fabricated is if someone pretends to hold an opinion they really do not, usually to play devil’s advocate or to troll. I was expressing my honest opinion, nothing fabricated about it.

“the other fabricated opinion that ‘The British themselves use ‘the three kingdoms’ as a nickname/pseudonym/euphemism for the UK'”

Oh, so Arthur Conan Doyle never used “the three kingdoms” in reference to the UK, nor any of the other authors I quoted above? I fabricated those quotes? I’d like to see hard proof that I invented those quotes out of thin air.

Yes, fabricated opinions, pedantry and even an outright lie about “poor Rex” getting “berated, insulted and gaslighted” all because being wrong is clearly too difficult to admit.

And I don’t recall saying anything about Arthur Conan Doyle, but I guess we are now supposed to conflate him with “the British themselves.” This is a great lesson in white deception, which we’ve seen over and over again on this blog.

Wow. I can’t have a conversation with Abagond about hardly anything without being interrupted and accused of lying, crying, and pedantry. (pedantry = being able to cite sources that bolster your points)

“White Deception” is something you are intimately acquainted with since you are White yourself.

Your Whiteness is not the driving force for attempting to lower morale on this forum with your incessant nitpicking and derogatory wordplay. That effort would be down to the 3E’s:

☁︎ envy: you are too lazy to start and build your own blog following. Instead you prefer to tear down someone who’s put in tremendous effort over the past eleven years to build an interesting online space.

☁︎ ennui: sheer boredom leads you to come here and poison the well

☁︎ remuneration: how much do your masters pay you to disrupt and degrade a predominantly Black online space that is not controlled by Whites?

Of course since Afrofem has nothing to contribute to the subject at hand, he/she is once again trolling me with personal attacks, as he/she usually does in defence of several white racist commenters on this blog

In fact, Afrofem does not know my race, but if we go by abagond’s theory on black sock puppets, then Afrofem is to be suspected of being one.

And of course, Afrofem does not know what blog or website I have. But since Afrofem spends much more time here than perhaps anyone, then using her puerile logic, she’s the laziest of all.

And then Rex disappears. Which is a damn shame. A casual and light-hearted conversation about a minor historical curiosity shouldn’t become so toxic that a sincere commenter is run off, even temporarily.

LOL. Rex was wrong, and I will tell anyone they’re wrong when they’re wrong. I know how much his type hates admitting they’re wrong, but he was not “berated, insulted, and gaslighted”

Those types of baseless accusations have been used by evil white racist women for over a century to have black men lynched. And here abagond is supporting it because he’s utterly defenseless against white tears.

@Afrofem

Too bad you can’t prove your idiotic assumption. So far I’ve been called British black supremacist, a Russian troll and now