francis, you can use all the available Holy Bible versions that's out there (something like 30 exists), but if you're not born of the Spirit - it's not going to change nor profit you anything, period.

Jesus declared, "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

As for "judgement", this is what Christ said, "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." John 16:33 - ie in the Father's purpose and will, Christ has already conquered evil and this world. That's why I am a firm believer of predestination.

---kathr4453 on 10/14/12 "but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."

In order to be on this earth, one needs a body composed of its elements.He shall appear in those elements, in power. We do not appear on earth, we remain changed, translated, beyond corruption and without flesh bodies, until the new heaven and earth are ushered in.

Not so for the saints of Israel, who must fulfill the agreement they made with YHWH.

They all, John included, will be raised to life on earth, like His at His return.

--Mark_V. on 10/14/12 what does judgment mean to you in these context?

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The Unveiling of Jesus Christ was written for the future. The subjects in it are all Jewish oriented. It is written to the people He chose to represent His authority on earth, Abraham's physical offspring.

The nations (Gentiles,KJV) are subservient in John's account of the Lord's day.

There is no mention of Christ's body in Revelations. That is due to our being snatched away in clouds prior to the unveiling of the Lord on earth.

francis, when I read the word Judgment, I look up the context for which it was written. I don't take something literal if the context does not allow it. Second, if you can keep the commandments of God, you don't need Christ. The reason He came to die was because no man could keep all the commandments. If they broke one, they broke all. You seem to believe you can, without breaking one, then you must be the only one in history other then Christ who can keep the whole law and Christ did not come for you. He came to save sinners. He said you should not lie, be prideful, to help the poor, not walk where you shouldn't walk, or say what you shouldn't say. He told the rich young ruler, sell everything and follow Him, have you sold everything?

francis, do you even know what's "keep the commandments of God" even means that was mentioned by Christ numerous times in His ministry? Keep the ten commandments as you understand it? If that was what Christ and His prophets and apostles meant, then there was no reason for Christ to die at Calvary, right?

Afterall, you insists that you can keep the commands of God and still belief in Christ. Then His death has no purposed, right? He should have just come and go and not die at all, since you have the ability to "keep the commandments of God" to be saved, right?

---christan on 10/13/12 This is what is written in the bible, and this is what I teach:Revelation 12:17 keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 14:12 keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

If you choose to do one and not the other that is up to you. If you want to find doctrines that lead you not to keep the law of God that is your choice

And have any succeeded? What if you failed to keep the law but still believe in Christ, do you lose your salvation? If you do "lose your salvation" (not that the elect will lose their salvation anyways), that would then make Christ's death on the cross a failure because He couldn't save the sinner from his sin, as the Father had promised.

You know, such a doctrine is deserving of eternal damnation that Christ's death only made the sinner savable and then it depended on him keeping the law or he'll lose his salvation.

---Mark_V. on 10/12/12 1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, ....for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:17 BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found transgressing the law, is therefore Christ the minister of transgression of the law? God forbid.

Revelation 12:17 the remnant... which keep the commandments of God, AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 saints: they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus.

francis, you contradict the Word. There is no condemnation to those in Christ. You gave (1 Peter 4:17),"For the time has come for judgment to being at the house of God, and if it beings with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?"The passage is not speaking for condemnation of believers, but the purging, chastening, and purifying of the Church by the loving hand of God. It's far better and more important to kingdom work to endure suffering as the Lord purges and strengthens the Church, than to endure the eternal suffering of the unbeliever in the lake of fire. And if God so strongly and painfully judges His Church which He loves, what will be His fury on the ungodly?

---Mark_V. on 10/12/12 1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" (Romans 8:1).

And,

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death" why?

"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in [his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Thus the judgment must takle place1, After we die, because as long as anyone is alivem, they can make a choice for or against Jesus. But once we die or choice is final2: He is comingback withis reward, which means that the reward/ judgment is made BEFORE he comes back

1. Jesus is our advocate in heaven: "yes, Jesus is in heaven, He speaks on our behalf who are still here on earth."2. Our judgment takes place after we die, "Wrong, If you are saved, there is no judgment, only rewards. If you are not saved, you are condemned already. You will be at the "Great White Throne of Judgment" for sentencing." (John 3:18) "He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already,..."3. The judgment is the same as the purging or cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary,"Wrong, the Judgment is for sentencing those who are condemned already." The heavenly sanctuary is pure.cont:

1 John 2:1 And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

1: Jesus is our advocate in heaven2: Our judgment takes place after we die3: The judgment is the same as the purging or cleansing of the heavenly samctuary4: because it takes place before Jesus comes it can be called PREADVENT5: this judgment is investigative rather than punitive

People are cleanse of sin only in the heavenly sanctuary you said. I do not see anyone walking into the heavenly sanctuary to have the sins cleanse. I have not read that anywhere.--Mark_V. on 10/11/12

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US:

So we do not have to be there in person. Jesus our advocate (1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:) appears on our behalf

"blood is not a deteregent, blood is only "used to cleanse people of sin ONLY in the heavenly sanctuary"

People are cleanse of sin only in the heavenly sanctuary you said. I do not see anyone walking into the heavenly sanctuary to have the sins cleanse. I have not read that anywhere.

As to the question, there is many false teachers teaching false doctrines, but they cannot lead anyone away from the Truth. Once in Christ, always in Christ, for He will never leave you nor forsake you if you have true faith in Him. We are spiritually baptized into One body in Christ.

"MarkV: That was so lame as to be beneath even you. The high Priest did not institute the seventh-day Sabbath - God did at Creation"

God instituted the Seventh Day Sabbath, the high priest instituted the Seventh day as Saturday. God never once said Saturday was the Sabbath. The Levitical priesthood was responsible for the days the Sabbath was to be done by Israel. We are not under the Levitical prieshood, we are under the High Priest who is Christ.

francis, you said,"blood is not a deteregent, blood is only "used to cleanse people of sin ONLY in the heavenly sanctuary"

The people are not cleanse in the heavenly sactuary, they cannot enter it. Only the High Priest. The blood represented on the altar, would clean the sins of the people outside the tabernacle. Nothing unclean enters the tabernacle. And the earthly tabernacle was build by men, using the instructions of God. The heavenly tabernacle is pure, it belongs to God.

trey, The verses that come before Hebrews 9:23 talk about the use of blood in the old covenant, by the priest and by Moses. By the priest to obtain redeemption, and to cleanse the people from thier sins. Verses 9-12 stated that the use of animal blood did not bring redeemption, it was christ blood who did that. the earthly sanctuary was only a pattern of what was to happen in the heavenly.

Verse19-22 says that allmost all things are purged ( cleansed) with blood. Speaking about Moses use of blood. Verse 23 which is a summary of 1-22 says that the heavenly things also had to be purged ( leansed) with blood . But with Christ blood.

blood is not a deteregent, blood is only used to cleanse people of sin ONLY in the heavenly sanctuary

I have tried my best to explain Jesus ministery in the heavenly sanctuary, and The need to cleanse the heavenly sanctuary of the sins God's people as best as I can. But lets face it, 125 word limit will not do.For those who are truely interested, not those who wish to make a useless arguement, I would referr you to a booklet by Joe Crews called: THE BLOOD BEHIND THE VEIL

francis, the passage in (Heb. 9:23) does not say things were impure in heaven. "the copies of the things in Heaven" they were only copies of the real thing. The copies (v.8:5) are the earthly tabernacles and its vessels were only symbolic replicas of the true heavenly tabernacle (v.8:2) and were also made unclean by the transgressions of the people (Lev. 16:16). Christ superior sacrificeis a major theme. As of yet, I have not found any place where it says the tabernacle in heaven was impure. Another thing, the tabernacle on earth by made with earthly things, the tabernacle of heaven is not.

---Mark_V. on 10/8/121: Can you give me the book chapter and verse ( scripture) that says " He would go into the holy of holies with something tied to his leg in the event he died they would drag him out?"

2: this is the kicker: WHY did the high priest go into the holy of holies? What task did he perform besides this one: Leviticus 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins:

Why did he need to go inside the holy of holies to cleanse Israel?Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall [the priest] make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, [that] ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

"The heavenly sanctuary got " dirty" the same way in which the erathly sanctuary did."

how can the heavenly tabernacle be dirty? It's at the Throne of God. Also, nothing in the earthly tabernacle was unholy. Did you not read that the high priest would go inside and if he was unclean, he died instantly, and someone would have to drag him out. He would go into the holy of holies with something tied to his leg in the event he died they would drag him out. Nothing unclean inside the Holy of Holies. You need to read Scripture francis, you fabricate all kinds of things with the way you read.

francis//... like it or not, christ is our high priest. What does the high priest do:

You ignore the FACT that Jesus as our High Priest is of the Melchizedek. order, not the old Aaronic priesthood. Hebrews 5:10, 6:20.

And of course, contrary to what you want to believe, Jesus continues to be our Great High Priest and Intercessor at the right hand of God. He did NOT go from one part of the heavenly sanctuary to another. Your 1844 things stinks.

Cluny, good point. Why should the heavenly sancturay (tabernacle) have to be cleaned? That is nonsense. francis will think of anything he can which really constitutes a false teacher. Works by the law. Christ High Priestly ministry is to be exercised in the perfect tabernacle of heaven. "The perfect tabernacle." The real High Priest who offered the real sacrifice for sin serves in the real tabernacle. He is the complete fulfillment of the shadowy copies in the Levitical system. "Copies" check (v.8:5) means earthly tabernacle and it's vessels were only symbolic replicas of the true heavenly tabernacle (v.8:2), and were also made unclean by the transgressions of the people (Lev. 16:16).

elee... like it or not, christ is our high priest. What does the high priest do: Leviticus 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins:

Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

I am done with this if you do not wish to accept christ as high priest who cleanses the heavenly sanctuary of sins that is you John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?

The SDA doctrine that Jesus cleansed the heavenly sanctuary is in line with Hebrews, chapters 8,9 and 10, which stated that Jesus AFTER his death, and by his blood would cleanse the heavenly sanctuary. Chapter 9 verse 27 lets us know that this cleansing is also the judgment. The same judgment mentioned in Daniel 7:10 before Jesus returns ( PRE-ADVENT JUDGMENT)

What Maccebees did was not cleansing it was cleaning the physical building. After the death of Solomon, and after the Babylonian captivity, there were MANY cleaning, and many cleansing.What makes that of Maccabees any different? ( THIS IS A TRICK QUESTION, be very careful how you answer)

Since nothing defiled can enter heaven, how did the heavenly sanctuary get dirty that it needed cleansing?---Cluny on 10/6/12This is a very good question. There are many people including some SDA who do not yet understand this need for cleansing the heavenly sanctuary

Leviticus 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins:

Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

So It is really our sin, the record of our sins that has to be cleansed

Contrary to what most christians believe, identifying false prophets is indeed very difficult especially during these end times.

False prophets and false teachers come from within the church. They put on a false front and, like satan himself, mix truth with error which is often very difficult to detect especially with today's christians who live their lives on the surface of their being. Identifying false prophets and false teachers require two things: watchfullness and a strong foundation in the bible (without the use of concordances, christians dictionaries, and the plethora of different opinions by authors who claim they know the truth).

how did the heavenly sanctuary get dirty that it needed cleansing?---Cluny on 10/6/12Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Christ in the heavenly sanctuary as High priest does the same thing that the earthly priest did for us.

Acts 3:19

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these

--elee7537 on 10/5/12What is the Sanctuary?Hebrews 8:2 the sanctuary, the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

How does Jesus Cleanse this sanctuary? Hebrews 9:12 by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,...It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified ...as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

When will Christ cleanse the heavenly sanctuary?Daniel 8:14 Unto two thousand and three hundred days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

How do we get that this date is 1844? Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people ( that time started 457 BC. 457 to 1884 is 2300 days)

Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Called " investigative judgement" because it occurs out of books.Investigative Judgment, Trinity, Rapture, Bible, sacraments and terms not found in the bible.

Jesus does what the priest and high priest did:1: Intersession: Leviticus 23:19 Hebrews 7:25 2: Cleansing the sanctuary: Leviticus 16:30 Hebrews 9:23-263: Death occurs in the outer court: Hebrews 13:12

francis //I accept your challenge, now It is up to you to show ANY SDA teaching NOT found in the bible ---Try defending the SDA Investigative Judgment theory. Where O' where do we see in Scripture that Jesus ministered in the Outer court of the Sanctuary and then went into the Holy of Holies on 22 october 1844?

The SDA Investigative Judgment theory was first advanced by O.R.L. Crosier while walkiing thru a corn field after the predictionn of 1844 failed. This theory received the annointing from a vision induced by Ellen White. However, Crosier later rejected the theory stating that it was not valid from the scripture. Even William Miller who started all these problems, rejected the theory.

That is why I am not not not.... a Seventh Day Adventist. Each of these promote the teachings not of Christ but of unbiblical doctrines or interpretations that are unique to their sect.---elee7537 on 10/4/12

I accept your challenge, now It is up to you to show ANY SDA teaching NOT found in the bible

Lets use the 27 funtermental beliefs of SDA as our guide , as this is the book which outlines all 27 fundermental beliefs of SDA

we can also use the SDA church manual if you would like, or the amazing facts study guide, or it is written study guide

1C 4:15 For if you should be having ten thousand escorts in Christ, nevertheless not many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, through the evangel, I beget you. I am entreating you, then, become imitators of me.

1C 11:1 Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Phl 3:17 Become imitators together of me, brethren, and be noting those who are walking thus, according as you have us for a model.

1Th 1:6 And you became imitators of us and of the Lord.

The Circumcision writers are not our apostles. Only Paul was commissioned to us, the Gentiles.

That is why I am not not not.... a Seventh Day Adventist. Each of these promote the teachings not of Christ but of unbiblical doctrines or interpretations that are unique to their sect.---elee7537 on 10/4/12

I accept your challenge, now It is up to you to show ANY SDA teaching NOT found in the bible

Any denomination whose focus in on the teaching of their founder instead of on Christ, is likely to be a cult an promotes false teachings. That is why I am not not not a Mormon, a Jehovah's Witnesses or a Seventh Day Adventist. Each of these promote the teachings not of Christ but of unbiblical doctrines or interpretations that are unique to their sect.

There was at one time,these seemed like pentecostal folks,preachers who had people pick up snakes,and if you survive that incedent you were in right standing faith in God. They were going on the verse Mark.16:18and they will pick.up snakes and they will.not harm incedent. This was and is a false teaching. Because God tempts. no Man and. We should not.tempt and play with serpents. Snakes ELENA..We had this doctrine in error right here in Michigan.

I think that our first indication that someone is a false teacher is from the indewlling Holy Spirit who seems to point out that the teaching is contrary to what we have read in the Bible. Certain thoughts enter our minds that gives us a feeling that something is wrong. If we act on it, then what is wrong often comes in focus.

Unless one is not born of the Spirit of God, there's no ways he can tell the difference between the Truth and the lies of the devil and identifying the false teacher.

Jesus declared, "Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for He shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you." John 16:13,14. This is a promise from Jesus that can never be broken nor will a Christian receive only half-truths but "ALL TRUTH."