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Yeah, she's only human. ---you know what I mean.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, Yubei, I think we see something more or less similar. I just see her as a bit more of a victim, and I'd maybe put Snow in the typical leading role instead but she's a pretty cool character.

I think the thing with her popularity is a lot of people aren't very sympathetic to characters that whine, regardless of having a good reason. Hence why you see so many complaints about Hope and his mom, and you don't see many about Sazh, who takes his tragedy in stride and is generally well-liked because of it. I'm thinking it's the same thing with Lightning; She doesn't whine from the getgo, she takes decisive action---sometimes that decisive action is smacking Sazh, punching Snow, slapping Fang. Well-deserved from her perspective at least.

For better or worse, to be a fan of Final Fantasy is to witness history in the making.

Which is why I'm wondering why on earth she's so loved. It's not really because she's a cold-hearted character or not. It's more of the physical abuse she keeps on dealing out to other characters. Whether she saw her sister's "dead body " or not, doesn't really excuse it. Same with Snow being a naive brat. You don't treat people like that son.

Is it a "tough " character trait ? No, it's called being a asshole.

I mean Cecil kills people at the beginning of his game, and Zidane starts off as a sexual harasser, but they change/ live and learn and grow. I don't remember Light ever doing this ? Though, I could be wrong here.

I suppose a big Lightning fan would have three main reasons for liking her: Either her backstory and character, the running theme of facing overwhelming odds to protect your loved ones, another for her performance in badass feats, and a third would be her canonical power levels.

The FFXIII universe is chaotic. I'm not saying it's like FFI where the elements have stopped, or like IV where a mad king, the new captain of the Red Wings, and personal redemption are apparently most of the hero's worries. Nor is it like IX where the world has monsters, but the party has a Quest to stop a mad queen and protect her daughter. In XIII, destiny is a thing, and they're destined to get screwed. If her character developments comes from being 'able' to bear constant tragedy, and consistently push off instinct->duty->grief, in a universe that starts out bad (They're all going to die. At best.), then gets worse (Goddess dies and time collapses) and downhill from there. (Literal end of the world and god wants humanity out), then you end up with a seriously damaged character that nontheless finds inner strength to combat their grief.

I mean yes she's an abusive b- at times, but she's a b so her sister doesn't have to be. The most selfish part is punching Snow, partially out of frustration, partially because she feels they both failed her. Fang though, is told that "It's up to Serah" whether or not they're even.
I personally have an older brother, and he's as tough on everyone-- on me even, but he's proven he'd stand up to anyone to defend me if it came to that.

Should one want to give her a chance, she has sheer results to her name. Light is tough love at her best, and self-sacrificing at her worst. PalomPolum is one of those moments where she's ready to die in order to save Hope so his father wouldn't have to deal with two losses.
Yes, she punched Snow in the face, and that solved nothing--heck, Snow was right and she was wrong! but like Renegade Shep in the ME trilogy, you can famously punch a reporter in the face. Thrice. Sure, it's abusive, sure, it counts as a negative in your karma meter, and yeah, it's optional- but the reporter screwed up, and Shep is still saving the universe, so it depends on how much it matters to you as a fan or not.
But I can understand how this guy loves her because she's such a badass, and that one sympathizes with her because they have a little sister, and how this girl likes her because she's one of arguably two main FF female protagonists, and maybe because she's a deity-level powerhouse in canon.

In the end you pick what you appreciate in your favorites. Screw it if some people don't hate Snow but dude jumped off a building to save the kid who was trying to kill him, it's all about the big picture.

For better or worse, to be a fan of Final Fantasy is to witness history in the making.

I also noticed that despite the low position of XIII in the FF rankings, meaning, it's one of the worst in the series, Lightning gets quite a lot of love than she deserves, and I don't get it at all.

I don't hate her, I think she's kinda cool, but not a character I would love. Deep down inside she cares for people (despite hitting some of them at times) But she doesn't care as deep as the other FF characters do, like Zidane etc. She cares deeply only for her sister, which is actually gets quite tiring as the story progresses.

Originally Posted by maybee

Which is why I'm wondering why on earth she's so loved. It's not really because she's a cold-hearted character or not. It's more of the physical abuse she keeps on dealing out to other characters. Whether she saw her sister's "dead body " or not, doesn't really excuse it. Same with Snow being a naive brat. You don't treat people like that son.

Is it a "tough " character trait ? No, it's called being a asshole.

I mean Cecil kills people at the beginning of his game, and Zidane starts off as a sexual harasser, but they change/ live and learn and grow. I don't remember Light ever doing this ? Though, I could be wrong here.

Yeah, she's only human. ---you know what I mean.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, Yubei, I think we see something more or less similar. I just see her as a bit more of a victim, and I'd maybe put Snow in the typical leading role instead but she's a pretty cool character.

I think the thing with her popularity is a lot of people aren't very sympathetic to characters that whine, regardless of having a good reason. Hence why you see so many complaints about Hope and his mom, and you don't see many about Sazh, who takes his tragedy in stride and is generally well-liked because of it. I'm thinking it's the same thing with Lightning; She doesn't whine from the getgo, she takes decisive action---sometimes that decisive action is smacking Sazh, punching Snow, slapping Fang. Well-deserved from her perspective at least.

Yeah, I think we mostly agree
Personally, I really like realistic, well written and threedimensional characters. I don't really care if a certain character is badass or whiny, as long as they can back it up with some development/growth/motives/good reasons throughout the story (which is why I really like Hope for example).

Originally Posted by maybee

Which is why I'm wondering why on earth she's so loved. It's not really because she's a cold-hearted character or not. It's more of the physical abuse she keeps on dealing out to other characters. Whether she saw her sister's "dead body " or not, doesn't really excuse it. Same with Snow being a naive brat. You don't treat people like that son.

Is it a "tough " character trait ? No, it's called being a asshole.

I mean Cecil kills people at the beginning of his game, and Zidane starts off as a sexual harasser, but they change/ live and learn and grow. I don't remember Light ever doing this ? Though, I could be wrong here.

Physical abuse? The only time Lightning ever hits someone else is in Chapter 3 when she punches Snow. And that happens because (self-quoting):

She was angry as hell. Angry at Snow for failing to protect Serah despite all his big talk, but mostly angry at herself for doing nothing. I think that in this regard Lightning felt inferior to Snow, a person she didn't even like to begin with. Because even though Snow failed to protect Serah, at least he tried. He did everything he could: he trusted her, supported her, and helped her constantly, no matter what the problem was. Lightning on the other hand didn't, therefore the anger, the blame, and the guilt. This also leads to the punching scene in Chapter 3, where Lightning simply couldn't take anymore of that “I'll protect Serah” bullcrap that Snow kept throwing at her all the time.

Lightning is not perfect, she's a human and as such she makes mistakes. How many times do people get angry over some of the most stupid reasons? However, she aknowledges those mistakes and learns from them (like whe she reconciles with Snow in chapter 7).

Originally Posted by Krizzy

I totally agree, no character development whatsoever.

I'm getting tired of repeating the same things over and over again, it's like people refuse to listen. No character development? Have you played the game? Do I need to point out every single cutscene where Light gets dvelopment?

Physical abuse? The only time Lightning ever hits someone else is in Chapter 3 when she punches Snow.

Originally Posted by Yubel-Lover

She was angry as hell. Angry at Snow for failing to protect Serah despite all his big talk, but mostly angry at herself for doing nothing. I think that in this regard Lightning felt inferior to Snow, a person she didn't even like to begin with. Because even though Snow failed to protect Serah, at least he tried. He did everything he could: he trusted her, supported her, and helped her constantly, no matter what the problem was. Lightning on the other hand didn't, therefore the anger, the blame, and the guilt. This also leads to the punching scene in Chapter 3, where Lightning simply couldn't take anymore of that “I'll protect Serah” bullcrap that Snow kept throwing at her all the time.

Doesn't excuse it.

Originally Posted by Yubel-Lover

How many times do people get angry over some of the most stupid reasons?

Lightning is not perfect, she's a human and as such she makes mistakes. How many times do people get angry over some of the most stupid reasons? However, she aknowledges those mistakes and learns from them (like whe she reconciles with Snow in chapter 7).

Of course, nobody's perfect. I actually get why Lightning acts like that, I understand she was angry at Snow, and that's why she punched him. Still, I can't think of any reason to love Lightning.

Originally Posted by Yubel-Lover

Originally Posted by Krizzy

I totally agree, no character development whatsoever.

I'm getting tired of repeating the same things over and over again, it's like people refuse to listen. No character development? Have you played the game? Do I need to point out every single cutscene where Light gets dvelopment?

I'm taking that back. I realized there were some character development there, but not that much compared to the other FF series.

There's a lot of stuff in here that reminds me of the fan-theories from FFVIII. I watched a playthrough of XIII because I knew I wouldn't enjoy it myself. I agree with all the complaints about the idiocy of the characters, and their contradictory natures that The Spoony Experiment brings up. I saw very little if any character development. And I certainly don't recall a whole lot of explanation. Was any of that stuff addressed in XIII itself, or is it from supplementary material like books, wiki/codex stuff, or in the sequels (which I know next to nothing about)

Half of the claims supporting her character, I have a lot of trouble believing the writers could properly convey considering how incompetent they were in the basic plot structure, I have a lot of doubt believing they could be so adept at something as nuanced as her personality flaws being properly explained and explored and worked through

And like it or not, no matter how frequent or infrequent, she is now known for the scenes where she's lashing out irrationally. And while I may not be aware of any worthwhile explanation for it. I don't agree that hitting and slapping and yelling at your comrades is very productive and rational. So at best, she's broken and needs therapy, and at worst, she's an unhinged sociopath who doesn't know how to handle having allies

At least with Cloud there was an entire section of the game you could play through that explained what happened. I don't recall very many flashbacks, especially not playable ones(?) that justify her behavior in the base game of XIII the first one

But maybe it's been so long that I'm just focusing on the bad taste the rest of the game left and have forgotten the few redeeming qualities it may have had in its plot and characters

But honestly, if all that stuff explaining and justifying her is only found in supplementary material, then I think that's probably a pretty bad excuse to say it's okay how she behaves in the main game, when that's all we had to go on initially. But if I missed something, then I concede there may be more to it. But I would find it hard for that extra information to make me see her as a better character

In the end I think she's just a badly written character, because I know a lot of better writers would have used that material and created something more memorable out of it, assuming it's in the main base game, and I've just forgotten, that kinda goes to show how pitifully it was handled that it wasn't presented as a huge part of her story

To me Light is such a giant bitch and she's immature. The way she treats people is just unforgivable, cold, and brutal. She's hot-tempted and aggressive, to the point that she physically attacks her allies more than once. Cloud and Squall were cold-hearted jerks, but they never went to *that * level. Unless you count the time where Cloud lost the plot and started to hit Aerith, but he was basically insane at the time.

You're not a "strong woman ", if you can't treat people like they're not punching bags.

She says that she wants to be strong for her sister, but she does the total opposite. Let's not get her started on her tantrum when Serah mentions that she wants to marry Snow.

To me, Lightning is a weak character. She's not a strong female character because of her childish attitude. Yeah, she wields a Gunblade, but that's just physical strength. Physical strength doesn't make you "strong ".

She's just a awful person.

See here's the thing: I find Lightning really funny to watch for all those reasons. I shouldn't, but there it is.

And like it or not, no matter how frequent or infrequent, she is now known for the scenes where she's lashing out irrationally. And while I may not be aware of any worthwhile explanation for it. I don't agree that hitting and slapping and yelling at your comrades is very productive and rational. So at best, she's broken and needs therapy, and at worst, she's an unhinged sociopath who doesn't know how to handle having allies

The most sociopath of the FF characters, yet one of the most loved.
The world has gone mad, it seems.

I find Lightning an interesting character. The fact that she’s deeply flawed and, initially at least, not very likeable, doesn’t make her less interesting.

Pretty much. It helps that’s she’s easily one of the least grating character with her flaws. She’s a dick, but there is far more to her than that, and I still consider her one of the few redeeming qualities of this game.

Granted, the last time I played this game was when it came out; I was a Freshmen in High School, so obviously, my read of the character and the game is subject to change if I do eventually revisit it (I think the only games in the series that I've maintained a consistent opinion of throughout the years are FFIV and IX).

I think my problem with Lightning is more emblematic of a problem I have with the cast in general. They all seemed so impulsive and confrontational; acting purely on instinct with little regard for the reality of the situation they're put into. Lightning goes off to fight the Sanctum. Why? Because she's frustrated, and needs to take it out on something. Hope vows revenge on Snow for his mother's death. Why? Because it's easier to blame one man than the entire society that led to their Purge. I vaguely remember the conflict between Vanille and Sazh, so I can't really comment on that, but the inner party conflict always felt melodramatic and forced to me.

I've always seen Lightning less as a female Cloud, and more of a continuation of the "tough female" character archetype in the vein of Celes and Aya Brea, the major difference is that most of Lightning's entire character is based around how "tough" she is. Most of what I remember re: Lightning's dialogue in the original FFXIII was how she could take care of herself and how she didn't need anyone's help. She's tough because she was a Guardian, she's tough because she has to take care of Serah, she's tough because she gets into conflict with the other party members. Celes has a few moments where she references her time in the Imperial service, but she also shows moments of resourcefulness, like when she tries to con Setzer, or when she warps Kefka away in the Magitek facility.