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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:37:16 -0700
To: "Mark E. Taylor" ,
Ken Parker
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
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At 6:50 PM -0700 6/24/97, Mark E. Taylor wrote:
>The numbers of fake subscribe attempts has risen dramatically and is
>causing me to rethink the wisdom of web page signups.
Yup. I've decided to go back to a mailto, or something similar. not
necessarily becuase of spam -- it's a factor, but subscription confirms
will take care of that, too -- but because too many folks *can't type
an email address in correctly* and web clients won't let me
authenticate from their configuration. I'm at least going on the
assumption that SOMEONE configured their mail client correctly for
them, and do away with all of those @#$@#$@!#! typos.
chuq
chuq.plaidworks&com.
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jul 1 21:48:45 1997
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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:00:36 -0400
To: acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk
From: Vince Sabio
Subject: RE: foundmoney.com
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov
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** Sometime around 12:44 -0400 6/24/97, Chuq Von Rospach sent everyone:
>>are these a
>>> known spamming organisation ? the address I have seen
>>> are :
::snip::
>
>> I don't recognize them as a know source of SPAM, but one never
>>knows. Why don't you try contacting them and asking what is up?
>
>That's not a spamming group, that's a group being spammed. They're
>being attacked by a subscription attack. I'd suggest dropping all of
>the addresses and locking out the domain.
I posted Andy's question to the SPAM-L list; the response that I received
(and expected) is that it's probably someone attempting a DOS attack against
foundmoney.com as revenge for spamming. As he pointed out -- and as I have
also noticed on my lists -- a lot of the DOS attacks we've been seeing are
against known spammer addresses (many of which are Scamford Wallace's,
though this one isn't).
Nevertheless, Chuq's suggestion is right on target -- even when they are
spammer addresses, I still add them into ListProc's .ignored file (or the
list filter on the LISTSERV list), inasmuch as it might be tempting to just
set them to NOPOST and leave them there until they start bouncing. ;-)
__________________________________________________________________________
Vince Sabio HumourNet:
vince@humournet.com Stop internet spam/UCE!
[Note new address: vince@humournet.com replaces wavelet@colossus.arl.mil]
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jul 1 21:57:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:00:36 -0400
To: acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk
From: Vince Sabio
Subject: RE: foundmoney.com
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov
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** Sometime around 12:44 -0400 6/24/97, Chuq Von Rospach sent everyone:
>>are these a
>>> known spamming organisation ? the address I have seen
>>> are :
::snip::
>
>> I don't recognize them as a know source of SPAM, but one never
>>knows. Why don't you try contacting them and asking what is up?
>
>That's not a spamming group, that's a group being spammed. They're
>being attacked by a subscription attack. I'd suggest dropping all of
>the addresses and locking out the domain.
I posted Andy's question to the SPAM-L list; the response that I received
(and expected) is that it's probably someone attempting a DOS attack against
foundmoney.com as revenge for spamming. As he pointed out -- and as I have
also noticed on my lists -- a lot of the DOS attacks we've been seeing are
against known spammer addresses (many of which are Scamford Wallace's,
though this one isn't).
Nevertheless, Chuq's suggestion is right on target -- even when they are
spammer addresses, I still add them into ListProc's .ignored file (or the
list filter on the LISTSERV list), inasmuch as it might be tempting to just
set them to NOPOST and leave them there until they start bouncing. ;-)
__________________________________________________________________________
Vince Sabio HumourNet:
vince@humournet.com Stop internet spam/UCE!
[Note new address: vince@humournet.com replaces wavelet@colossus.arl.mil]
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jul 1 22:04:10 1997
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Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:09:06 -0500
From: Gary Frederick
Reply-To: gary.frederick@jsoft.com
Organization: Jefferson Software
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; U)
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To: List Managers
Subject: Mailing lists on Windows 95
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We just got several questions about mailing list software. One person
wants to run a small mailing list, another a way to manage 50 or so
people in a 'loop' on AOL.
I am assuming both will be using Windows 95.
What are their choices?
Thanks,
Gary
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jul 1 22:04:49 1997
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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:07:43 -0400
To: "Mark E. Taylor"
From: Vince Sabio
Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
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** Sometime around 19:07 -0400 6/24/97, Mark E. Taylor said:
>Here is one that popped up today:
>
>Chamseli@America.Online.com
Oh, *THIS* is just too amusing:
>Whois: online.com
>CNET, Inc. (ONLINE22-DOM)
> 150 Chestnut Street
> San Francisco, CA 94111
> USA
>
> Domain Name: ONLINE.COM
>
> Administrative Contact:
> Barzun, Matthew (MB1611) matthew@PCFINDER.COM
> (415) 395-7800
> Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
> Cnet, Hostmaster (HC165) hostmaster@CNET.COM
> (415) 395-7805 x569
> Billing Contact:
> Payable, Accounts (AP297) accounts-payable@CNET.COM
> (415) 395-7800
>
> Record last updated on 29-Jan-97.
> Record created on 29-Jan-97.
> Database last updated on 24-Jun-97 05:23:33 EDT.
>
> Domain servers in listed order:
>
> NS.CNET.COM 204.162.80.10
> KNOCK.SER.BBNPLANET.NET 192.239.16.129
> NIC.NEAR.NET 192.52.71.4
Problem is, I was unable to find any MX records for either online.com or
america.online.com -- and america.online.com has no DNS entry, so it's
unresolvable.
Thus, it looks as if the address is bogus.
__________________________________________________________________________
Vince Sabio HumourNet:
vince@humournet.com Stop internet spam/UCE!
[Note new address: vince@humournet.com replaces wavelet@colossus.arl.mil]
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jul 1 22:40:39 1997
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Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 14:20:47 EDT
From: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown)
Subject: Web Page Signups
Message-Id: <9706251420.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org>
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"Mark E. Taylor" wrote:
[snip]
>The numbers of fake subscribe attempts has risen dramatically and is
>causing me to rethink the wisdom of web page signups.
Truly! What I've done to keep the convenience of a web page signup,
but cut through a lot of the junk, is to have the signup CGI script
sent the subscriber e-mail with a From: line for my MLM (in my case,
Majordomo, but his will work for others), a properly-formatted
"subscribe" in the body, a -- .sig introducer, and some explanatory
text.
The text says, "to subscribe to list blah-blah-blah, just reply to
this message and include the message in your reply. Remove any
quoting characters. If you weren't trying to subscribe to
blah-blah-blah, please delete this message without replying. If you
need to correspond with a human, please send a message to owner-
blah-blah-blah@..."
This has worked very well. So far, no one has reported being unable
to subscribe, and there are *no* phoney subscriptions.
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jul 1 22:49:11 1997
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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:38:10 -0700
To: Vince Sabio , acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: RE: foundmoney.com
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov
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At 4:00 PM -0700 6/24/97, Vince Sabio wrote:
>Nevertheless, Chuq's suggestion is right on target -- even when they are
>spammer addresses, I still add them into ListProc's .ignored file (or the
>list filter on the LISTSERV list), inasmuch as it might be tempting to just
>set them to NOPOST and leave them there until they start bouncing. ;-)
This, of course, might only encourage them to add you and/or your site
and/or your lists to their spam systems... Me, I just want them away
from me. They're set up to ignore mail, and I don't want to give them
possible access to my subscriber list addresses. If you leave them on
the list, they can simply start scanning for the addresses of the folks
posting to your lists...
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jul 2 05:43:28 1997
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Subject: Can we talk about Meta Lists?
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 07:51:36 -0000
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From: Mark Rauterkus
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Hi,
I'm looking for some other ideas about setting up Meta Lists -- something
that might be called an ENHANCED Mirror List.
All things about meta lists are fair game with this question.
For example, and established list has a topic area that is too wide. I'd
like to establish a sub-topic area with a new list. How are there ways to
set-up the list policies where you only control the meta list part?
For example2, an established list exists but is nearly dead with very
little traffic. I'd like to establish a list on the same topic area. How
can the new list jump into action and develop traffic and still mirror
the older list?
Thanks.
--------------
Mark Rauterkus, Publisher, S.S.S. http://www.sportsurf.net
mrauterkus@sportsurf.net
--------------
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jul 2 17:07:37 1997
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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:48:29 -0700
To: amys@amys-answers.com, Chuq Von Rospach ,
list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 3:09 PM -0700 7/2/97, Amy Stinson wrote:
>> I'm at least going on the
>> assumption that SOMEONE configured their mail client correctly for
>> them, and do away with all of those @#$@#$@!#! typos.
>
>Boy Chuq, my experience is that that is a big assumption.
Oh, yeah -- but if the mail program isn't set up right, there's NO
hope... But it'll reduce the problems from what I'm seeing this way...
Anyone for passing a test before being handed a browser?
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jul 2 17:51:03 1997
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Thu, 3 Jul 1997 02:38:56 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Alexander Verbraeck
Message-Id: <199707030038.CAA01423@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl>
Subject: Re: List of spam addresses?
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 02:38:55 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: tibbs@hpc.uh.edu, winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl
In-Reply-To: <01IK812BGRS6A9OW0T@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> from "owner-list-managers-outgoing@greatcircle.com" at Jun 18, 97 03:22:40 pm
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> I recall that from time to time one of the members of this list will post a
> list of addresses that have been identified as bogus or spam generating ones.
>
> I am not sure if I missed the last installment. Having received it in the past
> has been helpful since I would add these to my ignored file and several times
> the list stopped junk mail or otherwise stopped access to subscription of what
> had been identified as problematic originators.
>
> If there is a new list or version I would appreciate receiving it or seeing it
> on this list.
I posted the previous 'bogus subscriber' lists, as my mailing lists seem
to be getting about 80% of the bogus subscriptions. Although the frequency
is not that high anymore, about 1 or 2 per day still come in. In a number
of cases, these are repeated addresses, to try to really hit the e-mail
address (suppose you just managed to signoff from 1000 lists, and 1000 new
subscriptions start to come in...). Here's the list of bogus ones I got
since May 15. The number in front counts the number of attacks:
1 From: a32@mary-world.com
1 From: airlinerob@aol.com
2 From: alex5323@aol.com
2 From: andrewr@earthfriends.com
2 From: aoltech012@juno.com
1 From: ArtBraun49@aol.com
1 From: babas@mbox.vol.it
2 From: babas@tin.it
1 From: Bowdie@regulus.net
1 From: bruter@ix.netcom.com
4 From: charles1@netcom.com
3 From: charlie14@ix.netcom.com
1 From: CMJENTP@aol.com
2 From: cocytus@pacbell.net
1 From: debra@call4less.com
1 From: dynamarket@vaprnet.com
1 From: enigmagraphics@juno.com
1 From: gonzo@one.net
1 From: jane3838@aol.com
1 From: jbark87156@aol.com
2 From: jorge@mailloop.com
1 From: jvvandco@aol.com
1 From: kg@pacificnet.net
1 From: lneidig@prodigy.net
1 From: media_production@hotmail.com
2 From: naked@webpics.com
6 From: nemesis@aol.com
1 From: pansy@potters.com
1 From: patrick@shell.flinet.com
1 From: postmaster@planetnet.com
1 From: relonet@mwci.net
3 From: Ron.Hickman@unisys.com
1 From: R_Denterprises@hotmail.com
1 From: s540ltd@nwrain.com
1 From: sales@turn-key.com
4 From: scott.weiser@worldnet.att.net
1 From: soulsurfer@oro.net
3 From: stuffle@pcii.net
1 From: Sueve91@aol.com
1 From: t2bis@worldaccess.nl
1 From: theISP@blarg.net
4 From: tmshrsal@magicnet.net
1 From: ufta@genesisnetwork.net
5 From: user901165@aol.com
10 From: vam4946@megahertz.njit.edu
1 From: VIDEO01@sprynet.com
1 From: waters@halcyon.com
2 From: wstoler@aol.com
Kind regards,
Alexander Verbraeck
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr.ir. Alexander Verbraeck Delft University of Technology (TU Delft)
School of Systems Engineering, Policy Analysis and Management (SEPA)
Jaffalaan 5 P.O. Box 5015, 2600 GA Delft The Netherlands
Tel: +31 15 2783805 Secr: +31 15 2788380 Fax: +31 15 2783429
e-mail: A.Verbraeck@sepa.tudelft.nl List manager BPR-L, DYNMOD-L
http://www.sepa.tudelft.nl/~alexandv/ Chairman SCS European Council
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From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jul 2 21:19:36 1997
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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 21:59:38 -0700
From: "W. David Samuelsen"
Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen"
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To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Dean Anderson, the crackpot
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I just responded to Dean Anderson's attack on the HR 1748 (Rep.
Christopher Smith's bill). He believes it is an attack on the First
Amendment.
Well, with more than 1,000 genealogy listowners backing me up, I told
him off that Smith bill is very preferable to the Murkowski bill.
Smith bill is a mere amendment to the anti-junk fax law to include the
spams. The only way to get the spams is if the person want it, ask for
it - just like those who want companies to fax junk messages.
One of the spammers destroyed the beloved Maiser at the Indiana
University May 10th, home to more than 1,000 genealogy lists with more
than 100,000 subscribers. The effect was devastive and the effects are
still going on despite the recovery of many lists and moving to
different servers elsewhere with added protections.
Murkowski bill require the ISPs to install screening blocks on
subscriber's addresses at very considerable cost to the subscribers and
listowners.
The genealogy listowners already finecombed Smith and Murkowski bills
and support Smith bill unconditionally.
I already told Dean Anderson (who is hopping mad) that it is no use
arguing with us the genealogists who were victims of a major spam
attack.
W. David Samuelsen
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jul 2 22:54:26 1997
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From: Chip Rosenthal
Message-Id: <199707020554.AAA02490@mail.unicom.com>
Subject: Re: Web Page Signups
To: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:54:11 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <9706251420.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> from "Bob Brown" at Jun 25, 1997 02:20:47 PM
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Bob Brown writes:
> This has worked very well. So far, no one has reported being unable
> to subscribe, and there are *no* phoney subscriptions.
What facilities have you provided for these people, who never
bothered to learn how to interact with Majordomo, to remove themselves
from your list?
--
Chip Rosenthal *
Unicom Systems Development * http://www.unicom.com/
Junk email is theft - there ought to be a law * http://www.cauce.org/
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jul 2 23:00:00 1997
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From: Chip Rosenthal
Message-Id: <199707020528.AAA01511@mail.unicom.com>
Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:28:10 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jun 24, 1997 08:37:16 PM
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Chuq Von Rospach writes:
> >The numbers of fake subscribe attempts has risen dramatically and is
> >causing me to rethink the wisdom of web page signups.
>
> Yup. I've decided to go back to a mailto
Why are you even doing that?
If the potential subscriber has difficulty following simple instructions
on how to join the list, don't you think they might have a few problems
when they want to get off?
I think that if you have subscribers do anything other than mail
a -request address, ultimately you do yourself and the net-as-a-whole
an overall disservice.
(Exception granted for single-address automated list servers that
do reasonable things when mail is sent to the -request address.)
--
Chip Rosenthal *
Unicom Systems Development * http://www.unicom.com/
Junk email is theft - there ought to be a law * http://www.cauce.org/
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jul 3 00:34:44 1997
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References: <9706251420.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> from "Bob Brown" at
Jun 25, 1997 02:20:47 PM
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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:56:04 -0700
To: Chip Rosenthal , bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown)
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: Web Page Signups
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
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At 10:54 PM -0700 7/1/97, Chip Rosenthal wrote:
>What facilities have you provided for these people, who never
>bothered to learn how to interact with Majordomo, to remove themselves
>from your list?
Actually, excuse me for kibbitzing, but since chip jumped me in a
different message, it's relevant to answer this as well...
On my current system, the web page unzubscribes as well as zubscribes.
You just click a different button. Now, the basic assumption is that if
someone can figure out how to subscribe, they can unsubscribe as well,
since it's the same operation at the same place. This is, in fact, not
ALWAYS true, but it's mostly true (FWIW -- my big system, at Apple,
processes 500-800 admin requests per day on weekdays. Somewhere over
50% of those requests are generated from the web site, the rest the
old-fashioned way. And my overall error rates are under 2%, and the
huge majority of those mistakes come via the email interface, not the
web interface, and are because users don't read the frigging
instructions. They don't read the error messages returned, either...
Since the most common mistake is answered there, and I'll see someone
try it a number of times in a row at times...
On my *new* system, there will be email interfaces and web interfaces
to an unzub routine that'll remove the mail address from the header and
unsubscribe a user from a list, and since majordomo supports unzub *, a
panic-button release that'll take them off the entire server. I'm
working on that part as we speak.
In other words, I'm doing what arguably ought to be done. Getting *off*
a list will be easier than getting *on* it. And users on my systems are
going to have to learn less trivia, like preferred syntax of email
commands (does that unzub command want quotes in it? Or not?). That
stuff will still be there for the more experienced users, but I just
don't see any need to turn getting on and off lists into a
mini-adventure game. Is that guaranteeing a minimum competency to use
the list? Or is that simply elitism or hazing rituals under cover of
"this is how we did it in the good old days...."?
I'm obviously wroking to a different end-user audience than you, Chip.
And I'm consciously trying to broaden my user base as widely as
possible. I'm there to help Apple users get informed, which means
they're Apple-experienced, not mail list experienced. That doesn't make
them stupid. Just new/naive/uninformed. And my job is to build systems
to guide them to the information and help them figure this stuff out,
so they can go find and zubscribe to your list later without
embarassing themselves....
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jul 3 02:35:34 1997
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References: from "Chuq Von
Rospach" at Jun 24, 1997 08:37:16 PM
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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:53:13 -0700
To: Chip Rosenthal , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
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At 10:28 PM -0700 7/1/97, Chip Rosenthal wrote:
>Why are you even doing that?
>
>If the potential zubscriber has difficulty following simple instructions
>on how to join the list, don't you think they might have a few problems
>when they want to get off?
Well, for one thing, a number of my lists are oriented towards the
newer user. It'd be self-defeating to design a system or accept an
attitude that if they're not smart enough, they shouldn't be on the
list anyway. Part of the reason for the lists is to teach them....
Users aren't too stupid -- well, most of them. Many times, the systems
aren't smart enough. Or are built with assumptions that simply aren't
true any more, like baseline competencies. Now, if I was running a list
for list-admins, I could make different assumptions, because it would
be fairly stupid for a person who can barely run Claris emailer to run
mail lists (but it happens, and as the list tools improve, with things
like LetterRip and non-Unix beasts, you don't need to be a guru any
more... We have all sorts of thi stuff running nicely around apple...).
But I don't see a reason not to make my lists as easy to use and
accessible as I can, because I'm trying to be inclusive, not exclusive.
You can make things *too* simple. My web interfaces that allowed
multiple signups with one submission was that way. Not only did ti open
doors to *stupid* spammers, it opened doors to people who just signed
up to everything and drowned in the onslaught. Why'd they do that? Does
it matter? (mostly to see what they were about, and dropping the ones
they don't want later.. Yes, I check on this stuff.... And a lot of it
was not-thinking problems). The current version stops about 95% of the
spam and forces users to think about what lists to sign up, because you
won't thoughtlessly click around the page signing up for every one. It
raises the bar enough, but not too high. And about once a month,
someone bitches at me because they can't just click checkboxes instead
of radio buttons.... (grin).
>I think that if you have zubscribers do anything other than mail
>a -request address, ultimately you do yourself and the net-as-a-whole
>an overall disservice.
Well, we disagree then. I think list servers that allow administrative
requests (or worse, DEMAND them) to be sent to the main posting address
(as a lot of the ListStar stuff does, and I've had long discussions
iwth the developers about this...) do the net as a whole disservice. It
creates expectations that cause problems to *other* lists. I don't see
adding new features that improve list usage are bad, as long as the
"old" ways aren't thrown out willy-nilly, and for those used to the old
ways, they're still there. I'm layering in new stuff on top, not
replacing stuff, so I'm breaking none of the conventions. And if the
stuff works, others will adopt it, and it'll be a new convention some
day. That's how things improve over time....
I think I'm making things not-worse, or I wouldn't do it. And
hopefully, I make things better for the users. My end-user responses
are generally quite favorable. And if the stuff I'm building works,
I'll make it available, so that others can take advantage of it as
well, if they wish... Or not.
I don't see the problem with building on top of a known standard.
Ignoring standards, yes. But enhancing them? Why's that a problem, Chip?
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jul 3 11:04:31 1997
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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:38:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: kali
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: weird error...
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I've been getting this error message quite a bit. I have this weird
feeling that it has nothing to do with the users themselves but with the
server. It doesn't seem as if it is a "normal" error to have happening
repeatedly. Can anyone offer any insight?? I should also add that each and
every time I get this error message is accompanied by a second that just
says "failed" with no specified address or anything. It does not include
the body of the message either (says low priority etc) Thanks!!
-kali
*******
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Cc: postmaster@Northwest.com, owner-dandysrule@northwest.com
Subject: mail failed, sending to address owner
|------------------------- Failed addresses follow: ---------------------|
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|------------------------- Message text follows: ------------------------|
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From: kali
To: dandysrule@northwest.com
Subject: Re: Super, ultra, in your face, full contact, all emma, nude mud wrestling.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970701185917.0077f040@popd.netcruiser>
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From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 08:04:18 1997
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Message-ID: <33BE7089.6838@wasatch.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 09:04:25 -0700
From: "W. David Samuelsen"
Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen"
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To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: New spammers addresses to block
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Two new addresses surfaced today...
goldfox.com
spektrozemnetz.com - don't exist (fake address)
Checked checkdomain.com - no connection to IEMMC.
Where's that spam-list I kept seeing on this list-managers list? I will
be more than happy to forward whole message to the person for anti-spam
attack.
W. David Samuelsen
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 12:04:14 1997
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Message-ID: <33BEA88A.4606@wasatch.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 13:03:22 -0700
From: "W. David Samuelsen"
Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen"
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Subject: More spam addresses to block
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mapsexpress.com
cyberlink1.com
both owned by Valjam Communications
They tried to send me spam about "Earn $10k/Month with Free 900#"
Still haven't receive information on the Spam-List group.
W. David Samuelsen
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 13:04:12 1997
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To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: New spammers addresses to block
Reply-To: appel@erzo.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 05 Jul 1997 09:04:25 PDT."
<33BE7089.6838@wasatch.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 12:36:00 -0700
From: Shannon Appel
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>Two new addresses surfaced today...
>
>goldfox.com
>spektrozemnetz.com - don't exist (fake address)
>Checked checkdomain.com - no connection to IEMMC.
Where's the best place to get a complete list of spam sites? I'm ready
to hack up my sendmail to bounce spam sites to the bit bucket but in
looking for a good listing of spam sites the best I came up with was
AOL's listing.
Shannon
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 18:19:19 1997
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Message-ID: <33BEFE2F.5195@wasatch.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 19:08:47 -0700
From: "W. David Samuelsen"
Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen"
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U)
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The following had been banned/restricted from using the Superb.net
servers for relaying:
gosnet.com
iemmc.org
agis.net
nancynet.com
xsend.com
W. David Samuelsen :8^}
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 22:34:45 1997
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From: "Amy Stinson"
Organization: Amy's Answers
To: Chuq Von Rospach , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:09:48 -0500
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Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com
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References:
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> will take care of that, too -- but because too many folks *can't
> type an email address in correctly* and web clients won't let me
> authenticate from their configuration. I'm at least going on the
> assumption that SOMEONE configured their mail client correctly for
> them, and do away with all of those @#$@#$@!#! typos.
Boy Chuq, my experience is that that is a big assumption.
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 22:39:10 1997
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<009B63D1.37E2DE54.16@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:23:25 -0700
To: Vince Sabio ,
Chuq Von Rospach
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: RE: foundmoney.com
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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At 12:48 PM -0700 7/2/97, Vince Sabio wrote:
>Yes, this is the *primary* reason that I remove them, especially from the
>discussion lists.
I must say, however, that one dark night, I started designing a system
that would take these spammers, and subscribe them to all my lists, but
on the way out munge all of the headers so all the mail was from them
as well as too them... But I decided not to lower myself to their
level...
>P.S.--My original post apparently took a nice 1-week vacation at the
>honor.greatcircle.com mail server. Odd.
Nope. We used words that hit the administrivia filters and bounced them
to the moderator. It's a feature...
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 22:43:39 1997
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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 11:50:28 EDT
From: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown)
Subject: Re: Web Page Signups
Message-Id: <9707021150.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com
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>> This has worked very well. So far, no one has reported being
>>unable to subscribe, and there are *no* phoney subscriptions.
>
>What facilities have you provided for these people, who never
>bothered to learn how to interact with Majordomo, to remove
>themselves
Well, the way the signup works, they *have* to have at least a
minimal interaction with Majordomo in order to get subscribed in the
first place, and the "take me off" whining has diminished to a few
whimpers since I changed over to sending a "how to subscribe" message
instead of just signing them up.
I think this means the truly clue-impaired aren't subscribing, so
they can't whine about wanting to be unsubscribed. Good.
In addition, I have a cron job that sends a "how to get off the
list" message twice each month. I reply to "take me off" requests,
either to me or to the list, with a canned message explaining how to
unsubscribe and requesting a copy of the error message(s) if my
instructions don't work. So far, *no one* has sent me an error
message.
I have to admit to being a wimp, though. I manually unsub any
jerk who posts a second "take me off" message to the list, only to
keep the rest of the list from listening to the complaining. (I have
Majordomo's administrivia filter turned off because of false
positives.)
Ummm, I guess I should mention that the list is closed, in the
sense that all subscribe requests have to be approved, but I'm not
sure this makes any real difference... there hasn't been one I've
failed to approve in two years of running this (small) list.
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 22:49:11 1997
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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:48:57 -0400
To: Chuq Von Rospach
From: Vince Sabio
Subject: RE: foundmoney.com
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
** Sometime around 01:38 -0400 7/2/97, Chuq Von Rospach sent everyone:
>At 4:00 PM -0700 6/24/97, Vince Sabio wrote:
>>Nevertheless, Chuq's suggestion is right on target -- even when they are
>>spammer addresses, I still add them into ListProc's .ignored file (or the
>>list filter on the LISTSERV list), inasmuch as it might be tempting to just
>>set them to NOPOST and leave them there until they start bouncing. ;-)
>
>This, of course, might only encourage them to add you and/or your site
>and/or your lists to their spam systems... Me, I just want them away
>from me. They're set up to ignore mail, and I don't want to give them
>possible access to my subscriber list addresses. If you leave them on
>the list, they can simply start scanning for the addresses of the folks
>posting to your lists...
Yes, this is the *primary* reason that I remove them, especially from the
discussion lists. The list that the DOS attacks usually hit, however, is
moderated-edit -- so there's not much opportunity for gathering any
addresses other than my own. And spamming me is a *very* bad idea, unless
your entire ISP chain approves of the practice. (Not much I can do about
AGIS-originated spam. *sigh* Here's to hoping that CAUCE is successful.)
P.S.--My original post apparently took a nice 1-week vacation at the
honor.greatcircle.com mail server. Odd.
__________________________________________________________________________
Vince Sabio HumourNet:
vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam!
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 23:05:03 1997
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To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Web Page Signups
References: <199707020554.AAA02490@mail.unicom.com>
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From: Jason L Tibbitts III
Date: 03 Jul 1997 19:51:24 -0500
In-Reply-To: Chip Rosenthal's message of Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:54:11 -0500 (CDT)
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>>>>> "CR" == Chip Rosenthal writes:
CR> What facilities have you provided for these people, who never bothered
CR> to learn how to interact with Majordomo, to remove themselves from your
CR> list?
A tough problem. The list-headers folks are doing something about the
general case, though, by having a header with enough information to enable
an MUA to provide an unsubscription button.
I'm experimenting with including a URL given in the introductory info that
the user can visit at any time (and a string which they can mail) to remove
themselves without typing and without having to remember what address they
subscribed themselves as. Unfortunately this requires them to save the
introductory info, which they lose all too often.
I'm not certain that there is a complete solution given changing email
addresses and various forwarders. The user will always need to know the
address they subscribed as or some unique identifying data. And I'm not
convinced of the applicability of conformation tokens sent via mail for
unsubscription, though I believe that they are pretty much necessary for
subscription.
--
Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-3486 - 622PGH
System Manager: University of Houston Department of Mathematics
1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 23:11:39 1997
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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:52:42 -0400
To: Chuq Von Rospach , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Vince Sabio
Subject: Entrance Exams (was: Funny AOL Address)
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
** Sometime around 18:48 -0400 7/2/97, Chuq Von Rospach sent everyone:
>Anyone for passing a test before being handed a browser?
Screw that, Chuq; how about "anyone for passing a test before being
handed a modem?" Or, better yet, "anyone for passing a test before
being permitted to reproduce?"
Now THAT would solve a lot of problems ... (not least of which would be
eliminating the spectre of *my* reproducing ;-)
__________________________________________________________________________
Vince Sabio HumourNet:
vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam!
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 23:17:02 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is
From: "Amy Stinson"
Organization: Amy's Answers
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:38:43 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Subject: Subscription problems
Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com
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Hi Folks,
I am in the process of moving my lists over to my own server and am
running into some snafu's. I'm running SLMAIL, which is okay. Okay,
it was easy. I had it up and running in 15 minutes. I didn't have
that good of luck with other products and didn't want to pay for a
commercial license to run 1 rather large list.
These are the problems I'm experiencing. Prodigy's mailer puts a
little blurb at the top of their emails, which triggers an "unknown
command -" error message whenever a user tries to send a command. Is
this a feature that the EMC user can turn off? Obviously, I can't
set the software to start reading commands further down.
I used myself as an example of how to send messages to the listserver
and put: This is an example of how to send a command
SUBSCRIBE TEST AMY STINSON
and had no fewer than 50 people sign up to the TEST list with the
name Amy Stinson. How do I get them to stop that?
Like Chuq, I will no longer be offering Web sign up. I averaged
about 10 bad addresses every week, mostly from AOL people who put
only their screen name to compuserve people who used commas in their
addresses. Those comma addresses are really hard to remove from a
smart list list. You have to put them in quotes.
I thought that moving them from individual request addresses to one
generic address would simplify things. Not on your life. They can't
spell listserv, listserve, listserver, majordomo, or listproc. They
can't spell subscribe. They can't see spaces in between words. Yes,
I had one send this command
subscribetestyourname and couldn't figure out why it didn't go
through.
I guess what I really want to know is if someone has written a help
file for dummies that I can shamelessly borrow and adapt to my own
listserver? I've really tried to dumb mine down, but I obviously
have missed something.
thanks,
amy
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Jul 6 07:49:27 1997
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Message-ID: <33BFBD55.185B@wasatch.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 08:44:21 -0700
From: "W. David Samuelsen"
Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen"
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U)
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To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: More addresses to block
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Got it today. Checked it out.
Epislonfree.com don't exist
microsyssolutions.com is source of spam (in Ohio)
and unfortunately linfield.edu (Linfield College in McMinnville, OR)
is victim of the delivery. They had been informed of the spam.
W. David Samuelsen
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Jul 6 16:04:13 1997
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From: "Nathan J. Mehl"
Message-Id: <199707062256.SAA23677@zax.leftbank.com>
Subject: Re: Servers banned from Superb.Net network
To: dsam@wasatch.com
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:56:19 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <33BEFE2F.5195@wasatch.com> from "W. David Samuelsen" at Jul 5, 97 07:08:47 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
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In the immortal words of W. David Samuelsen:
> The following had been banned/restricted from using the Superb.net
> servers for relaying:
> gosnet.com
> iemmc.org
> agis.net
> nancynet.com
> xsend.com
Not to pick on you personally, Mr. Samuelsen, but...
Folks, can we please, please, please stop with the "I got spammed
by this domain" bulletins? Although I appreciate that it's necessary
and good to blow off steam after being used by spammers, it really
does nobody much good whatsoever. Existing spammers change their
domain names and their providers as fast as they are blocked, and
new ones come online every day.
Filtering them out by domain name is of debatable use, and trying
to assemble that list of domain names by sending email to list-
managers is probably the least efficient way I can personally think
of to do it.
If y'all seriously want to try to block spam domains from your lists,
a much more efficient method would be for somebody or bodies to
volunteer to maintain a central list, with regular updates and
verification procedures.
But even that, in my estimation, is a losing battle -- it's shutting
the door to the barn after the horses have left. If you want to
see an end to spam, consider contributing your time or money to
CAUCE - the Campaign Against Unsolicited Commercial Email. They
have a bill to criminalize spam up for consideration in congress
this term. If you are not from the US, read the text of the CAUCE
bill (available on http://www.cauce.org) and try lobbying your local
legislature to adopt something similar.
-n
--
The life of a sysadmin is always intense!
Nathan J. Mehl --- The LeftBank Operation
nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com
A Global Internet Company. http://www.gi.com
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 03:04:17 1997
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id AA11780; Mon, 7 Jul 97 02:53:31 PDT
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 97 02:53:31 PDT
From: dick@cfcl.com (Dick Karpinski)
Message-Id: <9707070953.AA11780@cfcl.com>
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: What to track for spam
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What about hitting the spammers where they get their feedback?
Wouldn't a registry of email addresses, URLs, and telephone numbers
be more reliable in stopping (most) spamming? It won't work against
spam without intent to get feedback, but to make money, the spam has
to have some ways for the suckers to respond. It might be harder for
the spammer to change feedback route than to change the apparent
origin of the spam.
Dick
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 07:20:05 1997
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ID ;
Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:21:03 -0400
From: Anu Garg
Message-Id: <199707071421.KAA10468@wordsmith.org>
Subject: Announcing Listat Beta
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:21:02 -0400 (EDT)
Restrict: no-external-archive
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Listat = List + Stat
A free, professional package to create interesting statistics on mailing list
addresses.
A brief list of features:
o Create stats in text form and HTML form
o Flags for the countries are included in the HTML stats
o The report can be sorted by the domain name or by the number of
subscribers from a domain name.
o Reports on unrecognized domains
o User configurable domain file: can be extended if more domain names
are introduced
o Additional miscellaneous statistical information reported: Average
length of email address, Standard Deviation, Longest length, Longest
email addresses Shortest length, Shortest email addresses
Listat is currently in beta. Download it from:
http://www.wordsmith.org/anu/listat/index.html
Please send your suggestions, comments, bug reports, and any feedback to
me at anu@wordsmith.org.
Thanks,
--
Anu Garg anu@wordsmith.org http://www.wordsmith.org/anu
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 09:49:37 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 97 09:24:12 PDT
From: dick@cfcl.com (Dick Karpinski)
Message-Id: <9707071624.AA12101@cfcl.com>
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: What to track for spam
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I was not intending to suggest that we tie up such a number, but that
we identify spam by means of it. When it's a URL, one can locate the
host administrators and send them email, but the point of the registry
would be to prevent messages containing the feedback addr/URL/phone
from being widely distributed until non-spamness can be verified.
Dick
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 15:36:39 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:59:03 -0500
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Eric Targan
Subject: Wanted: ISPs with Industrial Strength List Software
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WANTED:
LIST OF ISPs with Industrial Strength List Software
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Does Anyone have a list of ISPs which would include the software they are
running. They must be able to run 100,000 with ease with capacity for
several hundred thousand.
Thanks
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 23:19:41 1997
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Message-Id: <8033.868207827.2650408.3298@>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:50:27 -0700
From: "Brian J. Murrell"
Subject: Re: Servers banned from Superb.Net network
To: ,
Reply-To: "Brian J. Murrell"
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W. David Samuelsen:
>The following had been banned/restricted from using the Superb.net
>servers for relaying:
>
>gosnet.com
> iemmc.org
> agis.net
> nancynet.com
> xsend.com
David, you are going about this bass-ackwards. You should have a list
of servers allowed to relay mail through your servers, none else should
be allowed. You will never keep up otherwise. Too much of the spamming
fight nowadays is after the fact, when, of course we all know it is too
late. The damage is done, and the spammer is already bounced. His spam
made it out there though.
Preventing mail relaying is something we can do that is prevenative. We
should be doing it!
b.
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 23:22:35 1997
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6 Jul 97 16:22 EDT
Subject: Re: Web Page Signups
To: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:22:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Merrill Cook"
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com
In-Reply-To: <9707021150.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> from "Bob Brown" at Jul 2, 97 11:50:28 am
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I do basically the same thing, except I check to make sure the
address on the list is close enough to the one on their mail
message that majordomo will be able to unsubscribe them -- no
sense telling them to send the message to majordomo if, for
example, they have one of the newfangled JohnSmith@compuseve.com
addresses on their mailer, and are subscribed as
71111.1111@compuserve.com... those folks I just quietly
unsubscribe. I also look to make sure they don't have odd MIME
encoding that will interfere with the command.
>From Bob Brown:
>
> In addition, I have a cron job that sends a "how to get off the
> list" message twice each month. I reply to "take me off" requests,
> either to me or to the list, with a canned message explaining how to
> unsubscribe and requesting a copy of the error message(s) if my
> instructions don't work. So far, *no one* has sent me an error
> message.
>
> I have to admit to being a wimp, though. I manually unsub any
> jerk who posts a second "take me off" message to the list, only to
> keep the rest of the list from listening to the complaining. (I have
> Majordomo's administrivia filter turned off because of false
> positives.)
--
Regards,
Merrill Cook
Louisville KY
mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet
http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html
-+-
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 23:29:50 1997
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 07:57:38 -0400 (EDT)
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To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: "Linda B. Merims"
Subject: Re: Subscription Problems
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Amy Stinson wrote:
>...
>I used myself as an example of how to send messages to the listserver
>and put: This is an example of how to send a command
>SUBSCRIBE TEST AMY STINSON
>
>and had no fewer than 50 people sign up to the TEST list with the
>name Amy Stinson. How do I get them to stop that?
I laughed at this. I was doing documentation for Project Athena
at MIT in the mid 80s. Athena was where the X Window System
was invented. The way the network was back then, everybody
effectively had to set the DISPLAY environment variable
before they could use a terminal. So, I wrote a little blurb to
show students how to set DISPLAY. I made the mistake of
using a real machine name, teela:0, as an example:
setenv DISPLAY teela:0
Well, teela:0 became one machine on the system you *didn't* want
to be using. As you'd sit there, other peoples' windows would
constantly be popping up on your screen! Shortly thereafter
we invented xhost.
I understand your frustration. Really, most of what the job
of list manager consists of is helping people subscribe and unsubscribe.
The first time I saw somebody misspell subscribe I was floored.
Well, it turns out to be a fairly common mistake. I've got
"boilerplate" messages for the two most common mistakes: sending
to the list instead of the admin address, and failing to
put the right thing on the subject line (SmartList).
It is just that most of the people using the Internet these days
don't exist and have never existed in a world that requires
the degree of precision required to interact with computers. They are
literally incapable of resolving that degree of preciseness in
instructions. They also don't seem to understand that they are
not talking to a person, they are talking to an automated system
where all the pleasantries they include ("Please add me to your
list, I've heard so much about it," "I am changing jobs so please
change my subscription") go unheard.
Linda B. Merims
lbm@ici.net
Massachusetts, USA
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jul 10 10:50:18 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:47:58 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Adam \"Myth\" Parrish"
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Questions about mailing lists
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Greetings! My name is Adam Parrish. I've been a mailing list
enthusiast for a long while. Currently I'm taking a technical writing
class here at Weber State University, and in this class the instructor
requires each student to write a paper on an electronic discussion group
that relates to their desired field. I have chosen to write a report
to help the students along in finding and participating in mailing lists.
If you would, please consider the following questions:
- What are the most common problems that first-time mailing list
subscribers have when trying to get on a list? How can these be avoided?
- How long should a first-time subscriber observe a list before
trying to participate in discussion? What is the best way to present
yourself to a mailing list when trying to get specific answers?
- Are there any problems that people have unsubscribing from
your mailing lists? How can these be avoided?
- What, in your opinion, are the major advantages of mailing
lists over other collaborative electronic media, i.e., newsgroups,
web-boards, etc.?
I'm sure you've discussed issues like this before on this mailing
list, but I'm hoping to spark a little discussion. :) If you have any
more information regarding mailing lists and mailing list technology that
you would like to share, please contact me.
Thanks for your help,
Adam Parrish
. ---- --- -- - - - -
| http://www.inquo.net/~myth = myth@inquo.net
: Bad command or filename. You have 2 wishes left.
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jul 10 16:29:09 1997
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Reply-To:
From: "HTTP://WWW.CBMWORLD.COM/"
To: "Adam \"Myth\" Parrish" ,
Cc:
Subject: Re: Questions about mailing lists
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:37:28 -0600
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Check out these two sites for numerous mailing lists:
http://www.liszt.com/
http://www.reference.com/
********************************************************************
Jianliang Li -- Salt Lake City, USA -- cbmworld@tcd.net
FREE Internet Business: http://www.cbmworld.com/fci.htm
Or call 1-800-324-3245 Sponsor ID# LI9999999
*********************************************************************
----------
> From: Adam "Myth" Parrish
> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
> Subject: Questions about mailing lists
> Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 11:47 AM
>
>
> Greetings! My name is Adam Parrish. I've been a mailing list
> enthusiast for a long while. Currently I'm taking a technical writing
> class here at Weber State University, and in this class the instructor
> requires each student to write a paper on an electronic discussion group
> that relates to their desired field. I have chosen to write a report
> to help the students along in finding and participating in mailing lists.
>
> If you would, please consider the following questions:
>
> - What are the most common problems that first-time mailing list
> subscribers have when trying to get on a list? How can these be avoided?
> - How long should a first-time subscriber observe a list before
> trying to participate in discussion? What is the best way to present
> yourself to a mailing list when trying to get specific answers?
> - Are there any problems that people have unsubscribing from
> your mailing lists? How can these be avoided?
> - What, in your opinion, are the major advantages of mailing
> lists over other collaborative electronic media, i.e., newsgroups,
> web-boards, etc.?
>
> I'm sure you've discussed issues like this before on this mailing
> list, but I'm hoping to spark a little discussion. :) If you have any
> more information regarding mailing lists and mailing list technology that
> you would like to share, please contact me.
>
> Thanks for your help,
> Adam Parrish
> . ---- --- -- - - - -
> | http://www.inquo.net/~myth = myth@inquo.net
> : Bad command or filename. You have 2 wishes left.
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jul 10 20:20:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:59:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jonathan Wallace
Message-Id: <199707110259.WAA15766@whoweb.com>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: restrict-post
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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I have a number of mailing lists I administer and utilize the restrict-post
option to restrict postings by list members only. The named file I use
is the member list created by majordomo itself, under the lists directory.
I've run into a really weird problem, in that this works fine for some
of the lists, but not for others. I've gone as far as copying the .cf file
for the list that works ok, to the other list and then just changing the
list name appropriately. But this still doesn't work.
Can anyone point me to a possible solution? Protections for all files
are identical between the list that works fine and the list that doesn't.
I'm using the -C flag with virtual host names for the lists, and separate
.cf files for each list. Except for the hostname and the list directory
directives, the .cf files are the same.
Jon
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 07:05:03 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:57:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Linda B. Merims"
X-Sender: lbm@klingon
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: List Being Used to Create Spam List
In-Reply-To: <199707120800.BAA23470@honor.greatcircle.com>
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One of the subscribers to my list is a marketing professional
in the subject area covered by the list. This subscriber is
an active participant in the list and an excellent, consistent,
popular contributor.
However, recently I have become aware that this subscriber has
been collecting the e-mail addresses of everybody who sends
posts to the list. They have become part of an "e-mail marketing"
list that she has put together. Her marketing list also
contains other addresses that are interested in the subject
area, but don't happen to be subscribers to the listserve.
But the majority are. Noone was asked whether they wanted
to be on her e-mail marketing list.
Last week I rejected an advertisement to the list that this
marketing professional had sent in to promote a sales event
put on by one of her clients. (The list has a firm "no
advertising" policy.)
Well, this subscriber turned around and sent the announcement
out to her e-mail marketing list. In short, she spammed it.
When I questioned her about it, she said, "What are you going
to do, sue me?" Like most marketing professionals, she views
her address-collecting/mailing list activities on the Internet
as identical to those she practises off the Internet.
Any ideas for how to deal with this are welcome.
Linda B. Merims
lbm@ici.net
Massachusetts, USA
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 08:50:18 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:45:20 -0700
To: "Linda B. Merims" , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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At 6:57 AM -0700 7/12/97, Linda B. Merims wrote:
>Well, this subscriber turned around and sent the announcement
>out to her e-mail marketing list. In short, she spammed it.
>When I questioned her about it, she said, "What are you going
>to do, sue me?" Like most marketing professionals, she views
>her address-collecting/mailing list activities on the Internet
>as identical to those she practises off the Internet.
Well, first, does your list charter have a note that addresses are
private and not to be used or collected for any other purpose? (do you
have "who" turned off? If not, then you might as well stop now, because
anyone can grab your list at any time, and you haven't tried to protect
it).
My language, which I'm going to rewrite soon, is this:
-
Commercial postings are not allowed on the lists except by previous
approval of the List Mom. We do not want blatant sales hype and
pitches. The List Mom is willing help you write your posting to be
acceptable if it's possible.
You may not use addresses obtained from this list to harass others or
send them offensive, abusive or commercial e-mail. If we find out
that people are sending commercial solicitations or abusive e-mail
to users of our lists, the offender will be removed from the lists
and possibly reported to his site administrators.
-
If you don't have a specific rule against it, then you could argue
whether she did anything wrong, although the "what are you going to do,
sue me?" implies she dosen't really care, she'll do what she wants.
Depending on whether or not your charter said no, I'd do one of two
things:
The charter supports you:
1) Send mail to the list explaining what's happened. Tell all users she
did this without your permission, and that if they find this
unacceptable, to write her directly and demand being taken off her
lists, because you tried and she refused to cooperate with you.
2) Immediately after sending that message, kick her off the list and
lock her out so she can't come back, and send her formal notice she's
no longer welcome. Make sure she's on the list for her public flogging,
though. If nothing else, we want her to know that the people she's
trying to market to on your list have been warned she's being sleazy
(which she is). And we want her to know she's ruined what she
considered a lucrative home for marketing and publicity...
Now, if the charter doesn't support you:
1) Do #1 above.
2) In a separate message, formally define the new policy making this
against the list rules, update the charter, and publish the new charter.
3) send her a formal cease and desist, and note that if you get one
more report of her sucking one more e-mail that she can't document
(formally and completely document) was on her list prior to this date,
she's toast. Let her know that if she sneezes in your direction on a
bad hair day, she's history. And the next time someone complains that
she sent mail privately, demand proof she had that address before you
did this, and when she can't give it to you, nail her.
Alternatively, you can simply redefine the rules, make them
retroactive, and nuke her anyway, but frankly, I find those things
ethically iffy, especially when set things up so that you can still
take the moral high ground AND make them miserable at the same time and
make sure that sooner or later they'll trip the wire anyway. I've got
patience... (besides, chances are, once she knows the jig is up, she'll
probably leave. If not, it's a matter of time, and there's no reason
for you to continue cooperating with her, even if she's not kicked off
the list...)
I have absolutely no problem with publically siccing the list on
someone like this if they're refusing to be reasonable with me in
private. You've tried, she's refused, so now tell everyone on the list
what she's been doing, and have them all deal with her directly if they
don't like it. Not all of them will be nearly as polite as you, but
then, you tried, so that's not your problem.... (snicker)
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 11:50:13 1997
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Message-Id:
From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin)
Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List
To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:52:25 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: lbm@ici.net, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 12, 97 08:45:20 am
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Chuq von Rospach suggested to Linda Merims,
| Now, if the charter doesn't support you:
[a procedure that doesn't include booting the offender unless she does it
again]
I disagree. According to Linda, the offender has told her, "What are you
going to do, sue me?" That comment means, as I read it, "Yes, what I did
is wrong, but it is to my potential advantage, so I did it anyway, and you
can't stop me, so I'll continue."
Even if there is nothing yet in the charter forbidding culling addresses
for commercial advertising (or even if there is no charter at all) and her
mailings to members are not grounds for removal, her statement that she will
do as she pleases no matter how it harms the list or the list members is an
avowed refusal to act as a part of the community, and I say that *that* is
grounds for removal from the list.
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 12:35:10 1997
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From: Berg
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:29:54 -0700 (PDT)
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To: dattier@wwa.com
Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List
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Personally, I'd kick the offender off. Of course, on my lists, I also
had a rule that stated exactly that, right from the start.
In fact, if you write the list rules as a contract, and notify the
applicant to the list BEFORE they are subbed of those rules/contract, anybody
who breaks a list rule COULD be sued for breach of contract...:)
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 12:50:09 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:53:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Adam H. Kerman"
To: list-managers
Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List
In-Reply-To: <199707121929.MAA22607@eskimo.com>
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>From: Berg
>Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:29:54 -0700 (PDT)
>In fact, if you write the list rules as a contract, and notify the applicant
>to the list BEFORE they are subbed of those rules/contract, anybody who breaks
>a list rule COULD be sued for breach of contract...:)
You'd lose. That sounds like an unenforceable adhesion contract. You couldn't
show a meeting of minds required to make a contract. Furthermore, your damages
are minimal, just a bit more fuss in administering the list.
The parties damaged are the list members; again, it's minimal. Even as a class.
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 12:53:04 1997
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From: Berg
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To: lbm@ici.net
Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
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This EXACT problem cropped up on my list a while back. A guy
sent an advertisement to the list, which, while it WAS technically
on-topic for the list, violated the no-commercial-advertisements rule. So
I told him it wasn't allowed. About a week later, he apparently got
"curious" about how many people were on the list, and got ahold of the
subscriber list (which is available to any list subscriber, but NOT to
anybody not on the list, since the list is essentially for a club). He
then sent out three advertisements, using the subscriber list in a space
of half an hour. If he had told me what he wanted the list for, I would
have refused. If he had asked me before posting to the list, I probably
would have said YES.
As it was though, I kicked him off, because he broke a list rule,
then grabbed the subscriber list to break them three more times off-list,
but using the subscriber list verbatim (he even left both co-listowner
addresses on the emailing he sent out, of all things).
My rules are pretty simple:
1. First Offense: Warning.
2. Second Offense: Removal for 1 Week.
3. Third Offense: Removal for 1 Month.
4. Fourth Offense: Permanent Removal.
5. Non-Commercial Ads: Removal for 1 Month, No Warning.
6. Spam or Commercial Posting: Permanent Removal, No Warning.
Simple mistakes are excusable, but repeated carelessness or
simple refusal to obey the rules is punished. The rules are auto-emailed
to anyone who requests to be subscribed (which is handled manually for
security), and are reposted every few months.
Those rules have served me well for over a year now. So far, only
one person has been booted off for spamming, and what he did is now listed
as an example in the listrules, so we haven't had any repeats of that
behavior.
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 13:50:07 1997
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References: from "Chuq Von
Rospach" at Jul 12, 97 08:45:20 am
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:21:53 -0700
To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin),
chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List
Cc: lbm@ici.net, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
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At 11:52 AM -0700 7/12/97, David W. Tamkin wrote:
>Even if there is nothing yet in the charter forbidding culling addresses
>for commercial advertising (or even if there is no charter at all) and her
>mailings to members are not grounds for removal, her statement that she will
>do as she pleases no matter how it harms the list or the list members is an
>avowed refusal to act as a part of the community, and I say that *that* is
>grounds for removal from the list.
Can't disagee with this -- Whatever you feel comfortable with. I'm
depending on the person either taking the hint or giving me a an
opportunity later (which, I've found, pretty much happens, usually
sooner than later), but if you feel comfortable with it, I won't argue.
For me, the public flogging's the important part anyway, since it'll
force her to deal with a lot of individual complaints (at least, we
hope...) instead of thinking she can stonewall one person. And if she
refuses all of those individuals' requests to be removed from her
lists, I'd encourage everyone who's on her list to go to her site
admins and accuse her of being a spammer. Which, in fact, she is...
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:47:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Adam H. Kerman"
To: list-managers
Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List
In-Reply-To: <199707122002.NAA03838@eskimo.com>
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>From: Berg
>Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:02:47 -0700 (PDT)
>Software makers do this all the time. . . so it can't be as unenforceable as
>you say.
Intellectual property is different; a list of subscribers doesn't qualify.
>So what you do is, set the list for owner-approved (or manual) subscriptions,
>then when someone tries to subscribe, send them the list rules/contract, and a
>note to read it. Then if they still want to subscribe, sub them.
And, you collect damages how exactly?
>In the case of commercial advertisements, you could conceivably prove that
>they made money by breaking a contract...which doesn't look good in court. :)
Regardless, you aren't entitled to this money.
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 15:05:29 1997
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From: Berg
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To: ahk@chinet.chinet.com
Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List
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Well, actually, I wasn't talking about suing for money. Suing to
make them stop using the subscriber list was more what I had in mind.
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 16:35:13 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:26:57 -0700
To: "Adam H. Kerman" ,
list-managers
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List
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At 2:47 PM -0700 7/12/97, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>Software makers do this all the time. . . so it can't be as unenforceable as
>>you say.
>
>Intellectual property is different; a list of subscribers doesn't qualify.
I'll disagree. It's my resource. I spent the money and energy to create
the list of subscribers (or the service that creates it). Therefore I
think intellectual property is a perfectly valid argument -- it's my
sweat equity and pocketbook, so I sure better have a say in its use.
(this is a reason why my subscriber lists are just plain old not
available to anyone, anyhow. I run lists where it's not unusual for
there to be people listening in who don't want their presence
advertised, too. Assuring their privacy is important to me as well)
>And, you collect damages how exactly?
Go to small claims court and define a value for the rental of the
mailing list. Tihs is a perfectly acceptable practice, since it has a
viable analogy with magazine subscriptions and other lists that are
regularly rented. And if someone were to grab one of THOSE lists
without paying for it, you can bet the court would have no trouble
defining damages.
>>In the case of commercial advertisements, you could conceivably prove that
>>they made money by breaking a contract...which doesn't look good in court. :)
>
>Regardless, you aren't entitled to this money.
Why not? It's my service that generated the list. If I create a service
that attracts users to it, I should be able to reap the benefit of that
service, or choose who does by licensing those benefits out. That I
choose *not* to reap those benefits doesn't mean they don't exist or
that users can take them without my permission.
--
Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 16:50:36 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:50:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Adam H. Kerman"
To: list-managers
Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List
In-Reply-To:
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>From: Chuq Von Rospach
>Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:26:57 -0700
>At 2:47 PM -0700 7/12/97, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>Intellectual property is different; a list of subscribers doesn't qualify.
>I'll disagree. It's my resource. I spent the money and energy to create
>the list of subscribers (or the service that creates it). Therefore I
>think intellectual property is a perfectly valid argument -- it's my
>sweat equity and pocketbook, so I sure better have a say in its use.
Several years ago, the publisher of the official telephone directory sued the
publisher of a rival publisher. It was apparent that one directory was a copy
of the other. Nevertheless, the court ruled that the telephone directory isn't
copyrightable. A classified list, like the yellow pages, could be.
In the example we were discussing, the advertiser didn't copy the subscribers'
names from the list owner. She took them from the From header of messages that
appeared in her mailbox. The list manager doesn't own this information.
>>>In the case of commercial advertisements, you could conceivably prove that
>>>they made money by breaking a contract...which doesn't look good in court. :)
>>Regardless, you aren't entitled to this money.
>Why not? It's my service that generated the list. If I create a service that
>attracts users to it, I should be able to reap the benefit of that service, or
>choose who does by licensing those benefits out. That I choose *not* to reap
>those benefits doesn't mean they don't exist or that users can take them
>without my permission.
You don't own those potential benefits. You can't control what people do with
information once you have set up a forum to get it out there, particularly
information you don't own, like a list of e-mail addresses.
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 17:05:15 1997
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Message-ID: <33C81B26.D6A4BCCE@postmodern.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:10:08 -0700
From: "Michael C. Berch"
Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com
Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA
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To: Chuq Von Rospach
CC: "Adam H. Kerman" ,
list-managers
Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List
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Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
>
> At 2:47 PM -0700 7/12/97, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>
> >>Software makers do this all the time. . . so it can't be as
> unenforceable as
> >>you say.
> >
> >Intellectual property is different; a list of subscribers doesn't
> qualify.
>
> I'll disagree. It's my resource. I spent the money and energy to
> create the list of subscribers (or the service that creates it). Therefore I
> think intellectual property is a perfectly valid argument -- it's my
> sweat equity and pocketbook, so I sure better have a say in its use.
An appealing argument, but not the state of the law. The only two applicable
intellectual property theories would be copyright and trade secret, and
neither would apply here. As to copyright, the aptly-named "sweat of the
brow" doctrine was deprecated by the Supreme Court a few years ago; a simple
compiled list, directory, etc. does not qualify as an "original work of
authorship" (the criterion of subject matter in the Copyright Act). There has
to be a significant value-added component. This was in a case involving a
white-pages telephone directory.
As for trade secret, unless you actually rent out the list of have some other
business purpose for it, it's not "trade", and if you don't make a very
serious effort to protect it, it's not a "secret". Trade secret law is
*very* picky.
> >And, you collect damages how exactly?
>
> Go to small claims court and define a value for the rental of the
> mailing list. Tihs is a perfectly acceptable practice, since it has a
> viable analogy with magazine subscriptions and other lists that are
> regularly rented. And if someone were to grab one of THOSE lists
> without paying for it, you can bet the court would have no trouble
> defining damages.
One, you would have to show that you actually did rent out the list or had
concrete plans to do so. Courts are rightfully very leery of valuations based
on analogous or hypothetical valuations. And statements to the defendant
saying that the list is not to be used for commercial purposes and that you
don't want your subscribers spammed shoots that argument in the foot.
But even if you were able to show a valuation, it would be trivial since most
lists are very small and rental *per name, per mailing* is usually on the
order of 10 cents or so, and the lifetime of a given list (per mailer) is
considered to be maybe 5-6 mailings.
--
Michael C. Berch
mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 20:20:07 1997
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From: dick@cfcl.com (Dick Karpinski)
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Dear Mr. Parrish,
You need to follow rule one. Don't ask such a question. Anyone
who knows the answer has too much to do to bother with answering
someone for their school project.
However, if you should happen to read up some in the archives
and develop some sense of what the answers might be, you could
write that up and propose that it is so. Then you WILL get those
same folks answering to explain how you got it all screwed up.
Believe it or not, this is pretty sensible on all sides.
Dick
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From: Jason L Tibbitts III
Date: 14 Jul 1997 12:19:34 -0500
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I'm working on MIME digests for Majordomo and I've come to a question which
needs more discussion than it can get on majordomo-workers.
My problem involves what to do with additional information like the digest
index and footer information. RFC2046 is rather explicit about it; you
give the message type multipart/mixed with three parts: a text/plain with
the index, a multipart/digest with the actual digested messages, and a
text/plain with the footer matter. This seems to be just asking for
improper handling by the usual crappy mailers that exist in the world.
So what's the solution? Make two fake message/rfc822 parts for the index
and footer and add them into the multipart/digest? Do what 2046 says and
tell people whose mailers blow up to just switch back to RFC1153 digests?
What to other MLMs do? I've already received a complaint that Listserv
does what RFC2046 says and that people hate it.
- J<
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To: Eric Thomas
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: MIME digest formats
References: <199707141902.OAA14663@sina.hpc.uh.edu>
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From: Jason L Tibbitts III
Date: 14 Jul 1997 14:45:35 -0500
In-Reply-To: Eric Thomas's message of Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:58:27 +0200
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>>>>> "ET" == Eric Thomas writes:
ET> LISTSERV does NOT follow RFC2046 for the reasons outlined above.
Sorry, I meant Listproc. I can't keep the two straight.
In any case, what does Listserv do? Embedding a text/plain inside of a
multipart/digest is forbidden unless you make it into a message/rfc822, so
that would seem to be the only option besides telling folks that can't
handle MIME to go back to RFC1153 digests.
- J<
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Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 16:20:10 EDT
From: awest@webster.m-w.com (Amy West)
Message-Id: <9707142020.AA00478@m-w.com>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: bandwidth for a mailing list
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What kind of bandwith do you think is needed for a 2500 member
once-a-day announcement list? ISDN sufficient? fractional T-1 necessary?
---Amy West
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 14 15:20:22 1997
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From: Mike Nolan
Message-Id: <199707142213.RAA10690@celery.tssi.com>
Subject: Re: bandwidth for a mailing list
To: awest@webster.m-w.com (Amy West)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:13:27 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <9707142020.AA00478@m-w.com> from "Amy West" at Jul 14, 97 04:20:10 pm
Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com
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> What kind of bandwith do you think is needed for a 2500 member
> once-a-day announcement list? ISDN sufficient? fractional T-1 necessary?
ISDN should suffice unless the daily announcement is HUGE.
I run a list with about 500 members on it that often has 100 messages in
a day, with just a 33.8K dedicated modem connection to the Internet,
and things seldom bog down. You might have to do something to pace things
so your MTA doesn't choke, though.
--
Mike Nolan
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Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:52:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: murr rhame
To: Amy West
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: bandwidth for a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <9707142020.AA00478@m-w.com>
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On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Amy West wrote:
> What kind of bandwith do you think is needed for a 2500 member
> once-a-day announcement list? ISDN sufficient? fractional T-1
> necessary?
Depends on how big the announcement is and how fast you want it
delivered. A 28.8Kbps modem connect should be able to handle 2500
each 1KB E-mails in about 15 minutes. A single channel ISDN would be
about twice as fast... Other bottlenecks may have considerable
influence on how fast the individual subscribers will get their mail.
- murr -
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 14 17:27:53 1997
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Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:02:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mitchell Leben
To: Amy West
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: bandwidth for a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <9707142020.AA00478@m-w.com>
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ISDN is plenty.
Using bulk_mailer to speed delivery, I can deliver to 200 addresses in a
few minutes (not including the stubborn addresses). The above list (200
subscribers) gets at least 10 posts a day, for at least 2000 outgoing
messages a day (on just this one list). As far as bandwidth is concerned,
it does not break a sweat.
If you have no other traffic on the line, a 28.8 modem should suffice.
On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Amy West wrote:
> What kind of bandwith do you think is needed for a 2500 member
> once-a-day announcement list? ISDN sufficient? fractional T-1 necessary?
-Mitch
----------------------------
Mitchell Leben
mitch@leben.com
http://www.leben.com/~mitch
----------------------------
From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 14 17:35:34 1997
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Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:48:29 -0500
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:51:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Chris Owen
To: Amy West
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: bandwidth for a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <9707142020.AA00478@m-w.com>
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On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Amy West wrote:
> What kind of bandwith do you think is needed for a 2500 member
> once-a-day announcement list? ISDN sufficient? fractional T-1 necessary?
We host a list that is a once a day announcement (probably no more than 1K
message). There are 4500 people on the list and it takes about 45 minutes
for the full mailing to take place. During that time our outbound traffic
never goes about 5 kilobytes/sec so I'd guess even a modem connection
would handle it if need be.
Chris
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Owen ~ Lottery: A tax on stupid people
PO Box 1985 ~ owenc@gcnet.com
Garden City, KS 67846 ~ http://www.gardencity.net/~owenc/
Voice: (316) 275-1900 ~ ftp://ftp.gardencity.net/pub/owenc/
Fax: (316) 275-0313 ~ 88 FA CF C6 65 23 63 C1 6E 80 AE 0B 51 C0 22 36
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From: Anastasios Kotsikonas
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Message-Id: <199707150206.WAA12801@csa.bu.edu>
Subject: Re: MIME digest formats
To: tibbs@hpc.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:06:27 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: from "Jason L Tibbitts III" at Jul 14, 97 12:19:34 pm
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>
> I'm working on MIME digests for Majordomo and I've come to a question which
> needs more discussion than it can get on majordomo-workers.
>
> My problem involves what to do with additional information like the digest
> index and footer information. RFC2046 is rather explicit about it; you
> give the message type multipart/mixed with three parts: a text/plain with
> the index, a multipart/digest with the actual digested messages, and a
> text/plain with the footer matter. This seems to be just asking for
> improper handling by the usual crappy mailers that exist in the world.
>
> So what's the solution?
the solution is to provide both RFC1153 and 2046 digests and have different
user options. There are fine MUAs out there that handle MIME digests just
perfectly, like Pegasus, and I do not mean only reading/expanding them, but
also providing interactivity options (like Reply, group reply, forwarding,
etc). Eventually the world will catch up with MIME digests; it's unfortunate
that antique software systems still support RFC1153 digests only.
tasos
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To: Anastasios Kotsikonas
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: MIME digest formats
References: <199707150206.WAA12801@csa.bu.edu>
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From: Jason L Tibbitts III
Date: 14 Jul 1997 23:11:29 -0500
In-Reply-To: Anastasios Kotsikonas's message of Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:06:27 -0400 (EDT)
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>>>>> "AK" == Anastasios Kotsikonas writes:
AK> the solution is to provide both RFC1153 and 2046 digests and have
AK> different user options.
That's already there; the question is whether to use for the MIME option
the format described in RFC2046, or to fake headers for the index and
footer sections and include them within the multipart/digest.
I have received one message asking me not to use the RFC2046 method
(actually, the request was for me to emulate Listproc, which I suspect uses
the RFC2046 method), as it makes needless pain for readers which otherwise
could support multipart/digest just fine. I suspect the problems come from
the two-level nesting. I have no first-hand info, as I have no need to
subscribe to digests.
- J<
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From: Brock Rozen