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@98 That's very nice, Whiskey and Evil. What does this have to do with someone (m/f) using sexuality as a tool for attaining all kinds of security? Seriously, Evil, would you be sitting around while this woman makes her mind up about you? Last time I checked we're human beings too, not commodities. Oh, while she's trying to make her business decision you have the pleasure of entertaining her.

Sorry man but this dating site mentality doesn't play well in the real world and has little to no place in my life. We can argue semantics or terms and opinions all day long and just about everything meaningful will be lost in text or translation.

And what some have twisted from the op's question has little to do with his question since it's based on the negatives of the dating world and not so much on the reality of it.

I refuse to view women as the enemy or something I need to over think or protect myself from.Analysis paralysis is the best we have here and it makes little sense to me to waste much time on it..

There are simply to many people willing to say what ever it takes to get what they want with little to no regard for the other person, and I'm not one of them. I understand why people become reluctant to relax and be freely open with others even if I'm not one of them.

I seek a deeper connection myself so it's much easier to understand why others do as well.From what you are saying I too use sex as a tool when in reality I use my tool for sex. With a soulful connection sex/love can take hours and will last in ones heart for a life time. I personally spend hours, days, even weeks to get to know a woman before even going on a date, and in that time I do know what I'm getting myself into, so silly issues like this are no longer a problem for me..

I think guys like this are JERKS! but too many out there, so its best to play it safe. However, I think that if someone really likes you and is looking for a relationship, it really won't matter wether you sleep with them on the 1st date or the 10th date. The problem is that most men are not looking for a true relationship, then then try to justify themselves with that stupid shit.

Murder baffles me, but I can conceive of why people will commit murder/rape/burglary. Just because something is out of the norm doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I getcha. That was sort of my point. I don't get child molestation or embezzlement, but I'd never tell someone that it was an "urban myth." I'm sorta surprised that someone would try to say that rape of men never happens. That's just odd to me. It's like me saying that racism is an urban myth simply because my husband is white and I personally don't experience it.

That's a whole different can of issues, how about all the divorces caused by a lack of sexual intimacy? We're talking about people that have long since moved past the "relationship" stage and are married. Sex IS an important part of MOST relationships, both to get it off the ground and to keep the balls in the air.

Ah, I see. Yes, you're absolutely right there. I think I missed your point initially.

I think people that drop someone after sex because of a lack of interest are as ridiculous as people that have to have a specific point before they'll get intimate.

Here's where we may differ a little bit. While I think the "90-day Rules" women and the like utterly ridiculous, I do think that it's not a horrible thing to WANT the foundation for a relationship laid before you bed down with someone. I DON'T think it's wise to adveritse this like the woman in the OP's post does. It's like the people who say "No goldiggers" or "No players" in their profiles. Putting that, IMO, is like putting a giant "Kick Me" sign on your back.

petya_mila:Well, then, are you saying that sex IS an important part of getting a fledgling relationship off the ground? I suggest you tell that to the man who was in the forums a few weeks ago mentioning that he always, 100 percent of the time, dumps a woman after he bangs her

Is this your scientific proof that every man will do that? If you think men who are not virgins are totally evil, why are you on a dating site? I suppose you think that there has never been a case where a woman walks out on a guy after sex. But you would come up with excuses if you heard of that happening. You better go back to the convent and hide from men.

For god sakes" Nowinters" do you even like women????Post after post of how awful they are...get over yourself....move on!

Realize this...there maybe some women that may hold out sex for food.....seems dumb to me...poor starving things...lol.Ther are basket cases out there....as well as there are in men...Women like sex too....and we love men...we want a relationship....we want a good man!That we are compatible with and treats us as well as we will treat them!

I and many women need nothing from a man....in the sense of money...security..food.....blah..blah...Because you have had bad experiences....don't think we are all the same.....gawd!!

I've never told a man something like "not giving away sex without the relationship", since I don't view things in those terms, but I do make it clear early on that a) I'm the type of person to be exclusive from the first date and expect the same, so you might as well call it a "relationship", and b) it will take a long time until I'm comfortable enough to have sex. semi_sane_jane's post discussed the matter of a woman's comfort level. I'd never feel comfortable having sex with a man I don't love. That's the way I'm wired. I'm not purposefully "depriving" either me or him of something because it's not something I desire at any point in time prior to feeling love for him and comfort with him. I've currently gone more than two years without sex and don't feel deprived for it. That doesn't mean I "hate sex" or use it as a bartering chip, but it quite honestly means absolutely nothing to me without love. Once I love someone, sure, let's f*** like bunnies and enjoy it.

I understand that many people don't view sex the way I do, but that means we're just not compatible, so it's fair for us both to acknowledge that early on and go about our separate ways.

By the way, I'm not comfortable with expecting a man to pay for a date. It's always been my expectation that I will pay my own way, which has led to my turning dates down when it sounds like something I wouldn't want to pay for, and suggest something free such as a trip to the park.

To the person who said a woman knows whether or not she'll ever sleep with a man within seconds and won't change her mind, that's definitely not true. The last man I was in a relationship with (and slept with) I thought was hideous when I first met him but spent time together as friends and ended up seeing him as beautiful.

I think guys like this are JERKS! but too many out there, so its best to play it safe. However, I think that if someone really likes you and is looking for a relationship, it really won't matter wether you sleep with them on the 1st date or the 10th date. The problem is that most men are not looking for a true relationship, then then try to justify themselves with that stupid shit.

@msg 107 Whisky; I love women. Matter of fact. I'm a lot more trusting than most men. Actually, I have more faith in marriage than any man I know. Whatever. No one says you're all the same. We're not either. Would you have sex with a man before embarking on a relationship? I know I would. Such an important part of life. Like Abelien, I don't sleep with women if I'm not interested in a long term relationship with them. I can't have that kind of relationship without sex. No reason to test me.

Well, my posts. Hey, don't pre-judge me for being a single DAD and don't play me. A couple issues near and dear to my heart.

Not to be crass: A young lady in Daytona posts her sign: Ass, Gas or Grass. No one rides for free. Crude but effective. We all have to bring something to the table.

Also, bc of this men are putting women in a position to just have **** buddies. And, some women are just refusing to have casual sex. Sorry but you men are ****ing up the world.

From my point of view, women like this are looking for some kind of guarantee that the guy will stick around if the sex is not very good. She thinks if a relationship is established, he won't look elsewhere. I don't understand that. If the two are sexually incompatible, I would think they'd both be better off looking for a more compatible partner.

I'm not suggesting they jump in the sack on the first date. But there's no way I'm having the exclusivity talk until we've been intimate for awhile. Committing to a relationship with no idea what intimacy together is even like strikes me as insanity.

Yes, men are effing the world up because they don't cater to every woman's whim. (sarcasm /off)

Thank you, nowinters, and ditto. You're a reasonable, level headed guy, and I know you see both sides of the coin. As do I. I have never suggested women aren't capable of bad behavior. In fact I'll admit, I have been guilty of a few things that didn't demonstrate much integrity. And they definately blew up in my face, which I deserved. But we live, and we learn. I think I'm a much different person than I was back then. Still far from perfect, but I can say at this point that I make it my goal to deal with people, not just men, but everyone, as honestly, fairly, and diplomatically as I can. I try to see the other point of view, and I try to explain mine clearly and without being too offensive (for the most part.... there are those that desperately need to have what they put out tossed back at them, from time to time).

'Sex avoidance', huh? What an eloquent way to phrase it, lol. Yes, I'd agree there's a lot of sex avoidance going on. The question is why? I assume you feel it's a control thing, and maybe for some damaged women it is. You get burnt a few times, and your heart slams shut, and suddenly everyone's the enemy. And I realize that's probably the same reason many men feel the way they do as well.

So here we all stand with our body armor on and our guns drawn, just waiting for an excuse to unload our clip on the next person we see with the wrong genitalia.... And you know, I just think that's fvckin stupid. I honestly cringe when I read some of the posts in these forums, because the bitterness and spite is off the charts. And instead of finding a constructive way to work through that, they come here, to spew it around on strangers, just to get it out. But it can be hard, when someone is on the attack, to take into consideration where they might be coming from, and refrain from blasting back. We do have a handful of wise and gentle souls who have learned the fine art of looking past the smoke and the fire, and touch right on the heart of the problem. They are consistently able to provide excellent insight in just the right words to give the medicine the best chance of getting past the lips. IgorFrankenstein comes to mind. Whether or not the message gets internalized is a crapshoot. People can always choose to take it or leave it. But if it's put out there, there's a chance, so it's better than nothing, right?

So no, I don't think women should ever string a man along for free food, or shiny baubles, or even for the sheer joy of watching them squirm. I think women should be making every effort to keep the men they love feeling like the greatest man that ever lived, all day, every day. But I also think those men need to be loving their woman back, just as fiercely. I've seen that in action, on a few rare occasions. Once you get past the urge to toss your cookies at how precious n sweet n gosh darn adorable the whole thing is, it actually seems pretty brilliant. I can only speak for myself, but I'll admit, I want that. And as long as he's loving me right, I'm gonna lay the world at his feet. But I've met a lot of men along the way that weren't him. And most of them didn't get laid. They didn't buy me many dinners either, if that makes you feel better. I get a feeling pretty quickly if I see anything that moves me, and if not, I can't stand wasting my time or his. I'd rather spend that time doing something that does move me, and I have a decent sized list of those things.

As far as how long a person can go without sex... I'm not even gonna tell you how long I have personally gone between lovers. You wouldn't believe it anyway. My personal preference is to handle things myself when there's not someone in my life who truly means something to me, but I'm not suggesting that's what everyone should do. I'm suggesting that each person needs to be able to make the choices they feel are right for them, without being made to feel guilty about it. My longest and most satisfying relationships have been with people I opted to sleep with within days of meeting them, and I'll never regret that. But that wasn't because they pissed and moaned about it. I can't even remember the names of the men I've known who acted like that, because I walk away from manipulation as soon as I smell it. And I'll never regret that either. If how I feel doesn't matter, I know I'm in the wrong place, and there's not anything about it that does matter. As far as what to do in the meantime, don't you think you're being a tee wee little bit dramatic? I'm pretty sure you 'poor guys' know a trick or two you could use in emergency situations, before a full fledged health hazard occurs. It may not be your favorite option, but the capacity exists, that's all I'm saying.

If not this idea of "holding out" for your best deal is very unhealthy for the male population. Do you like us enough to care about our physical well-being? Really?

I was pretty disappointed to read this, from an otherwise reasonably sensible post with valid points. Holding out for the best deal still indicates that there is some sort of transaction, as far as you're concerned. For most women, it's not, but I have no idea how to prove that to you. Personally, if I'm spending my time with you, it's because I've seen something in you that indicates we might be able to create something amazing together, and at that point, you become my ONLY deal, and that position is all yours unless and until our liason is over. Fulfill my needs, and I'll fulfill yours. So beautiful, and so simple. As to caring about the male population in general enough to spend my life servicing the sexual needs of random men I have no connection with? Take a wild guess.... I mean, I feel for ya when you have a need and no one to fulfill it for you, in a general sense. But that thing is yours, you know. Unless we're involved in a mutually gratifying relationship, I'm not sure why you would think it was my place to handle your business? The best way to make sure you always have someone to turn to when something like that comes up is to build a relationship with a woman you love, and make it your priotity to make her know she is cherished above all else. I promise, you'll be astounded by how dedicated she is to ensuring your physical well being. Men who are willing to lay it on the line for us are the ones we are willing to dedicate our lives to their fulfillment, and that's the bottom line.

I made the post earlier because there's obviously a lot of frustration with not being able to get laid, and I wanted to point out that the perception that all women view sex as a form of currency to exchange for cash or affection is false, because it is. As always, it is anyone's choice whether to take it or leave it.

@112 Bellina. Sorry you feel this way. I just read your profile. Very direct. Spot on. I get the impression you're very sincere. I can't imagine you requiring stupid human tricks in exchange for sex. Those are also very attractive pictures. Also sorry about the quality of men. We're not all relationship adverse. Maybe your picker is off. Good Luck. You don't happen to have a clone in Daytona or Detroit by any chance?@116 Glad you agree; WE ARE NOT ALL RELATIONSHIP ADVERSE. So you had sex with the guy and he wanted to become inseperable. Why should he wait? Why play games? You got him. Treat him right. He'll treat you right. No, I do get it. If any one thinks I'm not good enough because I haven't waited or entertained enough; I don't need that. To be ridiculed for being a responsible Dad; I don't need that either. Nuff said. The taller the order; the longer you wait. You and I are not exactly newbies at this ya know. @102 Good points Evil. And, you're correct about POF vs. RL. But let's be honest; conversing in RL is how it begins. Chemistry begins when physically meeting. Relationships begin when sex begins. Why f**k around with the process? A few uncool things come to mind.

All I'm saying is that most men are not looking for a relationship. If they are not, it doesnt matter how good the sex is, or how attractive the women is, because they are emotionally closed. They have one thing in mind and women dont get it.

Part of the reason it is this way is that many women approach looking for the right man passively. They wait for the man to come to them. Well, the guys they tend to see most are those that are more aggressively seeking sex.

All I'm saying is that most men are not looking for a relationship. If they are not, it doesnt matter how good the sex is, or how attractive the women is, because they are emotionally closed. They have one thing in mind and women dont get it.

Alls I'm saying is that it's a load of crap that you claim "most" men are not looking for a relationship.

How would you like it if I made scientifically unsubstantiated claims about what most women are or are not looking for?

Back to the original topic, one thing to keep in mind is that technically if you're having sex with someone, you're in A relationship, it might not be as progressed as you wish it to be, but then that's just moving the bar constantly.

Unless you're having carnal knowledge of someone you have no further knowledge of, I would argue that everyone is in a relationship of some sorts from the first date until the last date.

If you're not comfortable with the status of the relationship when you explore each others bodies then I suppose claiming you're not actually in a relationship is an easy way out for some people.

It's amazing how often I hear that men don't want a relationship, yet a LOT of females I've seen on here want to date but don't want anything serious, or are just looking for fun.

I've already come to terms that I'm not going to be very popular with the sexist females on POF, and yet the world goes on.

Really? I try hard to believe that. I know you find us useful for some things.

we want a relationship....

Yes, so I keep hearing. I just hope there's something in it for both of us.

we want a good man!

Good for what, though?

That we are compatible with and treats us as well as we will treat them!

Do women really want to treat us well? It would be nice to think they might care about our comfort and happiness. But it seems like all I ever hear is what women want, what women need, what women expect--and how we don't give it to them.

Do women really want to treat us well? It would be nice to think they might care about our comfort and happiness. But it seems like all I ever hear is what women want, what women need, what women expect--and how we don't give it to them

From here?? Or is this your life experience?? Like someone has pointed out...If you are taken your knowledge and all your experience with men/women from an on-line dating forum...your world is going to look pretty bleak...lol.If you had a bad marriage or break up...get over it!!

I have to say..IRL I have not experienced any bad...nasty..mean... men or have had any bad attitudes from dating men off here or in real life.Mind you....maturity may have a factor.I may not have known what was going on their heads but they didn't in mine either.I remained friends with a few and I have hooked up a few.I just had an open mind on meeting them...took them for their word..no game playing and everything worked out fine....there was never any name calling or regrets, on my end!!I pay my way...so certainly don't feel like I used anyone or do I feel like I was ever used!!!

Bellina2010: All I'm saying is that most men are not looking for a relationship. If they are not, it doesnt matter how good the sex is, or how attractive the women is, because they are emotionally closed. They have one thing in mind and women dont get it.

I suppose you have the statistical analysis and research to back that up, right? I think a more accurate statement is most men are not looking for a relationship WITH YOU. If you are such a man hater, why are you on a dating site? You're better off going to a female oriented web site where bashing men is a national past time and sport.