I know for fact on t7, when u are on the main platform slightly behind the 50 bubble they can spawn right in front of u. about 5 metres in front in the corner if u look down towards the grenades (not the spawn at the grens) yet this says that cannot happen D:

in fact ur thing says they can only spawn there when u are at the stairs that lead to the ya below the mh, which obviously is a 1/1000 spawn then yet it does happen when they are right next to u D: i have a demo vs weird of it happening, will look for it if need be (in b4 weird breaks ql) :D

if it is the QL spawn system is shit lol. A great example is lower YA, looking to hit a rail to the 2 spawns near the upper YA. I knew it was pretty easy (2/4) but if you move a bit closer to those then the 2 rail respawns are forced as well, which makes it 4/4 lol.

edit: please share other good spawn killing spots and jumps so I can finally learn this map properly.

As I said, there might be a slight error in where I placed the spawns.

I originally placed them (by hand) in the 3D models for the other videos, and used that placement here counting the pixels. I'm sure there is a bit of error here and there, so when you place your location, don't trust it to the pixel.

thats an amazing job you've done there, wanted to ask if you were going to do it for tdm aswell (or maybe i could have done it myself) but then i realized you cant do it for tdm since its dependant on other players' positions too.

I feel a bit bad about the videos now. Lots of inaccurate points, and missing information. Moving forward, I should focus more on in-game footage and discuss about sound cues (not captured with this web app).

The most annoying example of this: you killed your enemy at SG (ztn), jump to RA and enemy spawning at GL or RG.
At toxicity I saw a lot of times how enemy spawned near the MH while you are under it, and at upper YA while you are comes to pick up LG.

btw, even Cooller with Shadow (c58 caster) discussed about it at some stream. Seems like this feature have been made for balance or so.

i dont think its a matter of ql not rejecting those spawns. i think its more that u perceive them as something that should be rejected but fail to take into account the time lag between the position ql uses to calculate the spawns from. theres a definite (and probably way too large) delay so quite often when you are on the move after making a kill it seems like a spawn very near where you are now going becomes active.

I would like you to find a demo when someone spawns at RG when you are at ra @ ztn. Or even at gl. I have very hard to recall that happening.

However, I do remember someone saying that there was always the chance of a completly random spawn mixed together with the rule that mementomori based these on. Not sure at all if I dreamt that or not though :D

You simply go to the far left in the corner at RA that way you can force the gl spawn and even get an easy rail.. done this so many times and somehow its always plazma who spawns there every single time :(

I'm a programmer, writing mainly C/C++ code and with a bit of python experience, so picking up java script is really just writing the syntax a bit differently. I use QT a lot, and HTML5 canvas ended up being very similar to QT Painter, which I used a lot.

So I pretty much knew all the hard things already, and had to adapt only slightly to do this.

ql needs sth cpma got for so long.... ghost models at spawns in warmup
but it will take a whole year for ql developers to implement this and ID will realease it for PRO/PREM acc only
for this silly feature xD

I would say a spawn is a positive action and blocking a spawn a negative. You like to see the spawning of the enemy as something negative / dangerous (and this is often the case for me when playing...) but I guess for most the association is not correct:)

Fantastic work overall tho! this shows the major issue that is the quake spawn system...

The lava polygons are weirdly cut for performance reasons. I did not have a simple way to manipulate them, and in the transparency rendering they appear wrong. Same problem with water in t7 and poison in toxicity.

I remember a time, when I had to learn maps within a few runs, memorizing the spawns locations, and also how to force certain spawns..... =|

With this tool the skill required to initially learn maps is simplified.

But I can imagine, that even now, a huge amount of persons won't be able to do it, and will stop at another barrier what is in front of them. Just as some aren't able or willing to learn maps after months and years after they have been released.

I hope that more people will now be able to learn maps faster and with the ease of this tool, the skill gap can be decreased and the skill cap increased.

There seem to be some problems with the aerowalk one. As soon as you go through the tele to rail the ga spawn behind you is activated. Also if you stand at the lg (or even at the lg ammo below it) you can force the sg spawn which is probably further in the corner.

Yea ok apparently I was wrong about the second, funny because I was already worried people would spawn behind me when I used the tele. The other problem persists, this spawn is definitly possible (just tested it): http://imgur.com/u0YT9

Funny. If you stand a on the left side of the rail on aero (with your back to the wall) you actually know 100% where the enemy will spawn as long as he doesn’t delay his spawn. He can spawn under LG where you can see him, or in the far top corner (in the LG room) where you won’t be able to see him from your pos, but you can hear the spawn. He can also spawn top RL next to tele exit where you can hear him spawn aswell (and importantly; distinguish the spawn sound from the LG room spawn sound) and finally he can spawn GL where you won't be able to hear him, but the lack of spawn sound will let you know he in fact did spawn there. Nice.

Yes. Usually people camp downstairs at the door. You can still hit rails if the opponent goes to rocket or rail, and possibly teleport up, but you also have a better position to go to mega or red if needed.

forcing the rail spawn on ztn by standing on mh far back, i regularly circlejump towards rail in the attempt of him spawning while i'm in mid-air. it's something i subconsciously do.
looking at the pictures, it seems like any position different than mh-spawn would result in a different spawn than rail.

somehow tho, i have in the back of my head, that the tactic works.... the feeling might be misguided tho by me by chance jumping unnoticably later than him spawning and assuming i was mid-air.

also what twister wrote above about aerowalk. standing on the 25h at rail, circlejumping towards tele and him spawning at ga/tele-exit.... not sure of this at all!

Can you please be more specific? The best way would be to make a screenshot and circle the spawns that are not correct. Textual descriptions are harder to understand, especially because I may not know the correct in-game behavior. Thanks!

For some reason it still isn't right. I know for a fact that you can stand in an area near MH on ztn that will allow the two spawns at rail but will never allow PG room spawn, which doesn't happen in the visualisation.

Wow thats funky because I tested it like a hundred times and got all the 5 spawns including the SG one and excluding that rail spawn all along the RL side to shards. :3

I have no fucking idea why that is haha. :p

EDIT: My friend pointed out maybe it does take in vertical distance after all lol. But ya, try it yourself, it is the SG spawn thats the 5th one. :3

ANOTHER EDIT: Actually that would make the MH situation make more sense because I can force both rail spawns with more leeway than what it says on the visual. The visual also still reckons they can spawn in PG on the right side of MH which is impossible so maybe height is a factor.

height definitly isn't a factor as can be seen by the accuracy on the other maps. It appears like the left railspawn is off, I don't know why it is but it appears to be further inside the wall/closer to the mega (?). Because here I believe both railspawns should be green: http://imgur.com/ccIwH

if you look at his example you'll see no matter where u put that rail spawn its still the longer then the sg spawn, meaning either the sg spawn is off or it takes vertical distance into account, which up until now i didn't believe in.

Take a look at any other map, the spawns would be way different if height was a factor. Maybe there is a possibility that the actual spawnpoint is placed somewhere inside the wall but because you can't spawn there you are moved outside? Dunno.

I created a map with symmetrical spawns, and a platform in the middle, with a line. Ideally, if you stand to the left of the line, the enemy will spawns on the right, and vice versa.

Then I added a hole between the center and the left platform. The whole is a proper hole: it goes from bottom to ceiling, the map resulting in a torus, connectivity-wise.

If that whole is subtracted, the spaws on the left platforms would always be closer, and the enemy should spawn on the right platform.

I run the map, and actually it behaves as if the hole was not there. You can get the map here.

This would make me think holes do not count. A last possibility for that though is that what counts is the bsp tree. In this case it did put the whole map in the same cell (checked with r_shownormals) and that a hole in a cell does not count. Looks a bit too esoteric to me, as computing the direct distance is much easier.

I never mapped so I can't do anything but speculate but are you sure there is no way to specify empty areas? Are you sure they way you did it is the same way the ql maps were designed? Because it fits perfectly with the aerowalk and ztn spawn 'weirdness' and all other spawns appear to be calculated perfectly. For me it seems that the question should be how the empty spaces are substracted rather than if they are substracted tbh :p

I have an idea, maybe give every spawn point a value corresponding to what floor its on. But you also have to make the cursor recognise which floors its on or make it so you can click which floor you want so you can then get a vertical component by the difference of floors.

Well I tested it from the shards to rockets on the wall in game. But tested it at the right corner in warmup. I actually tested to see if the spawns were different in warmup because I've always felt it was different. But it turns out they're not. I think it might be different in practise warmup.

Get someone to be your guinea pig and and run to you repatedly and kill them without moving (in game).

We did that for about 10 minutes. Not a single sg spawns with one standing in the corner. It looks like the most recent version is quite accurate. We should all thanks newuser, who is the man under this last version :)

Actually this is wrong. I realised that testing the spawns in practise was different because theres a cvar for the percentage which is set to 40 in practise.. Spawns in warmup are the same in real game.

Also I have confirmed with a friend that it is 5 spawns on ztn. So therefore it rounds up.

Transform your hobby into your work, and suddenly you will get exposed to a whole dark side which as hobbyist you could skip/ignore. I much rather keep playing with my toys without money ever being involved.

that video simply isnt impressive or even good, nothing more to say. i wouldnt have gone to the youtube page and wrote a negative comment for no reason just to talk him down. but i felt like the esr comments were really overhyping it for no reason so i gave my view on it as a counterpart.

wtf, its always surprising (and crazy) how people interpret what they read online

i am sure the artist had fun and learned something while doing so. good for him, and i would encourgae him to continue. i also dont think what he did is shit. i just pointed out that it is not as impressive as people make it out to be.

What am I interpreting wrong? You said it yourself here:
"i felt like the esr comments were really overhyping it for no reason so i gave my view on it as a counterpart."
People liked it and that annoyed you so you had to make a negative comment.

i was not annoyed and i do have nothing against the fact that people enjoyed it. i was commenting to say that it is not as impressive as people make it out to be. thats something completely different and you are again reading a lot into it.

One can use these visualization to get an overview of how it works, and look for specific spawn rape location. Then one should test things in game, which is what really matters.

What I don't like is the total inefficiency of having to play tons of games to get all situations to show up, with all issues of perception, luck etc, which make it very hard for most players (limited time, patience, etc).

Your spawn visualization tool for t7 says that when your on the yellow armor in the rail room the enemy cant spawn at this spawn - http://i.imgur.com/j9tIc.png (reason it's green is because my cursor was on a different side of the map to take the pic). The spawn is super rare though so it would be hard to reproduce but I definitely know it exists, I made a thread about it before - http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=2196052. Also I think on dm6 you can get the spawn under rail when your slightly behind the 25hp bubble near the plasma (not the one near all the ammo boxes or the very top bridge). Also your tool says this isn't possible - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E58fvC4huvA#t=6m05s. Anyway thanks for making such a helpful tool.

Maybe off topic, but connecting to the spawn system: it would be nice to make the spawn points visible during the warm ups (or practice matches), similar to the CPMA warm ups.
For the beginners or in the case of new maps this feature can be very helpful.

Man, I was thinking, can you do the same thing (at least) with some popular CTF maps? I mean when someone uses the "say_team" you see the "areaname" of the map and a noob frequently don't know where the hell is each location name...

If you don't know what I mean, say_team sintaxis is:..

name [areaname]: message..

If you're not interested in CTF at least I'll thank you for answering my question. :)

I had an idea that I thought could be nice to add to your amazing spawn visualizations. If you like it and are able to.
My thought is that instead of having only one layer for spawn visualization you add another for sound as well.

Its actaully CZM that got me thinking about what you can hear where and what you cant hear.

In one of the events he attended lately he talked about that if you avoid taking the last shard on dm13, someone that is lurkking arond the corner cant actually hear you takeing the rest.
And its not a bad combination to have together with the spawns, if you end up low after a showdown and want to listen for a soundqueue to avoid a spawnee.

Given how the spawns work, a 2D representation has no problem, since the vertical component almost never plays a role. But with sound, it easily becomes messy (it counts for where you are, and for what you can hear). Even if I could extract the necessary information (which is not as easy as a bunch of coordinates), visualizing it properly would be challenging.

It's a nice idea, but I feel it's a bit overkill. What you can hear is something that can be checked easily in game (simple items off, show normals on), giving the perfect read on each inch of the map. Anyone can do it, getting the perfect information in-game (so you don't even need to translate from the 2d layout).

- Either the rules have changed and it was not disclosed.
- Or there's a bug in the spawn system. I am inclined to believe it's the case (I would not be surprised to see that this spawn is either the first or the last in the list of spawns).