Is there any consensus that projecting at top rope is not as acceptable as doing it on lead? For my own personal goals, I am not ticking off a route until I have lead it, but I have been having a go at a few routes lately that I felt more comfortable on working out the moves on TR and then moving onto a lead.

Is there any consensus that projecting at top rope is not as acceptable as doing it on lead? For my own personal goals, I am not ticking off a route until I have lead it, but I have been having a go at a few routes lately that I felt more comfortable on working out the moves on TR and then moving onto a lead.

Is there any consensus that projecting at top rope is not as acceptable as doing it on lead? For my own personal goals, I am not ticking off a route until I have lead it, but I have been having a go at a few routes lately that I felt more comfortable on working out the moves on TR and then moving onto a lead.

Make sure you are not using top roping as a crutch.

That has definitely the temptation. What are some of the things you would point out as using the rope as a crutch. Are you thinking more along the lines of needing the rope there just to complete the route and never moving onto leading it or using it as something that allows you to grab it, take on it etc.

Is there any consensus that projecting at top rope is not as acceptable as doing it on lead? For my own personal goals, I am not ticking off a route until I have lead it, but I have been having a go at a few routes lately that I felt more comfortable on working out the moves on TR and then moving onto a lead.

Make sure you are not using top roping as a crutch.

That has definitely the temptation. What are some of the things you would point out as using the rope as a crutch. Are you thinking more along the lines of needing the rope there just to complete the route and never moving onto leading it or using it as something that allows you to grab it, take on it etc.

If you are toproping a route because you are are nervous about leading it, you are using toproping as a crutch.

We were LNT fanatics and at one bluff we only TR'd. It was overhangs and roofs so we also never hung on a rope, ever (not that you really could on goldline as it was so stretchy).

From my perspective, on single pitch climbs, if it's really 'all about the movement', then why bother with the faux clips? There's nothing particularly technical or bold clipping a hanger - especially after hanging your way up the thing ad nausem to sort it all out and work up the courage to lead it. We did plenty of stout trad leads during the same period as well - best of both worlds and a few of those TR roofs could still kill you.

My old partner and I back at that bluff at a thirty year reunion a few years back - same as it ever was (well, maybe a better rope)...

It really depends on the route, the steepness, how hard it is to get from one bolt to the next, how well you have it dialed in, etc.

Personally, I prefer to work a route on lead. On TR the rope can get in your way, if it's steep or it traverses you shouldn't be left hanging in space if you work it on lead (usually the bolt is before a hard move), it offers better movement, etc.

If I'm really having problems working out a section on lead I may cheat through grabbing draws (if possible) or do some stick clip trickery then lower and work out that section on TRing through the draw. I'll also admit that after the rope is up I'll sometimes hop on it on TR for a cursory burn, especially if the clips are hard, but my husband tends to get cranky when I do this (easier for him to belay a working burn on lead than TR).

Is there any consensus that projecting at top rope is not as acceptable as doing it on lead? For my own personal goals, I am not ticking off a route until I have lead it, but I have been having a go at a few routes lately that I felt more comfortable on working out the moves on TR and then moving onto a lead.

I think the only people who would express disdain for using top-roping in the project process are the ones who don't see how ludicrous it is to call one sort of cheating better than another. Short of chipping, projecting is projecting, period. I prefer to project on lead because I can work out the clips too, but if you habitually mock-lead while top-roping your project (which seems incredibly stupid), that would probably address it.

this woman is entrusting her ankles and life to the friction of your ass-fat...

That's not a woman, and yes, we and everyone else in SoIll back then 'entrusted' each other for thousands of goes each with no more belay than that on 80ft lines, most of them overhanging. No one was ever dropped - ever.

With a 1" webbing or end-of-the-rope harness and adding a non-locking biner to the side going to the leader we also did no shortage of hard local and Eldo multipitch catching a lot of long and hard leader falls just that way in the process.

And to be honest, on a hard, multipitch lead, I'd still take him on a hip belay over most folks with an atc or grigri. It's like any other form of belaying - it's all about competency - you either are or you aren't.

Is there any consensus that projecting at top rope is not as acceptable as doing it on lead? For my own personal goals, I am not ticking off a route until I have lead it, but I have been having a go at a few routes lately that I felt more comfortable on working out the moves on TR and then moving onto a lead.

Make sure you are not using top roping as a crutch.

That has definitely the temptation. What are some of the things you would point out as using the rope as a crutch. Are you thinking more along the lines of needing the rope there just to complete the route and never moving onto leading it or using it as something that allows you to grab it, take on it etc.

If you are toproping a route because you are are nervous about leading it, you are using toproping as a crutch.

That makes sense. However, I was in a position this week to climb a route that was right at my skill level and the crux came while clipping the 3rd bolt. The problem was not that I could not make the move, rather, the fact that there was a 10 foot gap between the 2nd and 3rd bolts with definite ground fall potential prior to even pulling the rope up to make the clip. I will probably never feel completely comfortable leading the route even though I had no problems making the moves.

would it even make sense to project this route as short of on-sighting it, a fall would render a broken ankle.

this woman is entrusting her ankles and life to the friction of your ass-fat...

That's not a woman, and yes, we and everyone else in SoIll back then 'entrusted' each other for thousands of goes each with no more belay than that on 80ft lines, most of them overhanging. No one was ever dropped - ever.

With a 1" webbing or end-of-the-rope harness and adding a non-locking biner to the side going to the leader we also did no shortage of hard local and Eldo multipitch catching a lot of long and hard leader falls just that way in the process.

And to be honest, on a hard, multipitch lead, I'd still take him on a hip belay over most folks with an atc or grigri. It's like any other form of belaying - it's all about competency - you either are or you aren't.

i have encountered a chuffer out of my league. i take my hat off and bow before you oh chief-of-chuffers.

this woman is entrusting her ankles and life to the friction of your ass-fat...

That's not a woman, and yes, we and everyone else in SoIll back then 'entrusted' each other for thousands of goes each with no more belay than that on 80ft lines, most of them overhanging. No one was ever dropped - ever.

With a 1" webbing or end-of-the-rope harness and adding a non-locking biner to the side going to the leader we also did no shortage of hard local and Eldo multipitch catching a lot of long and hard leader falls just that way in the process.

And to be honest, on a hard, multipitch lead, I'd still take him on a hip belay over most folks with an atc or grigri. It's like any other form of belaying - it's all about competency - you either are or you aren't.

i have encountered a chuffer out of my league. i take my hat off and bow before you oh chief-of-chuffers.

Yeah, I know the idea of a TR you wouldn't be willing to tie into is a tough one.

We bolt those routes. X-rated TRs are stupid.

The last time I saw some one try it I happened to roll through the area on a trip and swung by for old times sake. As I was getting out of the car I looked over, and while the ground-level is obscured, I could see a broken-off tree trunk I didn't remember being there waving about unnaturally. On walking over it was a couple of guys who had hauled a 23 ft log over to the route, stood it on end, and one guy shinnied up it while the other guy tried to steady it. The guy doing the pole dance was attempting to place a piece at the crux. Unfortunately once he got to the top his buddy couldn't really steady the log very well. He did try to place the piece on a couple of the passes but they both had to abandon ship pretty quick before the deed was done. Hadn't seen anything like it since old Keystone Cop reels.

Yeah, today it would be bolted in a heartbeat if it weren't protected, it would also be covered with chalk destroying the puzzle aspects of the line (it's the third photo in the pics in my profile). But in that time in the mid-70's we were LNT freaks and wouldn't have dreamed of bolting anything. You wanted to do a line like that, you stepped up and dealt with it - we all took one fall off the crux and one fall was all you needed to motivate you to get past it to where the TR kicked in the next time.

I did relent on that dogma about four years ago and placed the only protection bolt I've ever installed (in lieu of a couple of #2 Lowe Balls) on a route named 'Hollow Victory' in honor of that act and the fact the whole wall the climb is on is somewhat of a hollow layer.

this woman is entrusting her ankles and life to the friction of your ass-fat...

That's not a woman, and yes, we and everyone else in SoIll back then 'entrusted' each other for thousands of goes each with no more belay than that on 80ft lines, most of them overhanging. No one was ever dropped - ever.

With a 1" webbing or end-of-the-rope harness and adding a non-locking biner to the side going to the leader we also did no shortage of hard local and Eldo multipitch catching a lot of long and hard leader falls just that way in the process.

And to be honest, on a hard, multipitch lead, I'd still take him on a hip belay over most folks with an atc or grigri. It's like any other form of belaying - it's all about competency - you either are or you aren't.

i have encountered a chuffer out of my league. i take my hat off and bow before you oh chief-of-chuffers. Don't worry, in 40 years you'll be able to chuff that hard too.

i am 40 now, so i'll have something to look forward to in the retirement home