Stay Tuned for an Update on PermaEthos

Stay tuned our group just met and I will be publishing details tomorrow as to what we are going to do as far as more students for the PermaEthos PDC.

I think after an hour of very careful consideration and a full day of taking opinions we have reached a very fair, equitable decision. A decision that will let us keep our commitment to the first 1000, ensure more people do get a chance to take the PDC and increase the value to our 1000 founders and the entire community at the same time.

The basic view I now have is this, this decision will make 98% of the people happy and that is about the best we can do. If you are in the 2%, I will say once I am sorry, and that is that.

The basics…

There will be another round, it won’t open until Saturday May, 31st. This gives people with bank issues a work week to sort them out.

It will cost more than the founders paid to take the course.

There will still be some benefits for those in the first round of the class, but those who get into it in the second round of sales will not be called “Founders” and not get all the founder benefits.

There will be some special added unannounced bonuses for the 1,000 Founders and it will only be for them.

Even though the additional students won’t be founders it will still make a difference that they are part of the first round, they will have some life long benefits.

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Stay Tuned for an Update on PermaEthos — 120 Comments

Without seeing your solution, I can safely say I’ll be in the 98%. You’ve always been fair and I believe I speak for many in saying that I fully trust that you will do the right thing for PermaEthos and for this community!

I agree.
I know I had a really hard time getting in with dozen of “Page cannot be displayed” frustrations. I’m glad that there will be an option for those who had problems. I know I would be really grateful for that chance if I were in that position. At several points I thought the server had crashed.

Jack, you have always displayed incredible common sense which ain’t so common any more. You have an innate ability to see both sides of an issue and come to a reasonable solution which is fair and just.
I know, and anyone who has been listening to you for any length of time should know, that you will do what is really “fair” and beneficial for everyone involved. And until you prove me wrong, I will trust your judgement. PermaEthos started out as and still is “your baby”. I know you will take good care of it.

This is good news. You (and we) can’t let a few selfish whinners stop this tsunami of permaculture transformation from moving across the country or world for that matter. As you noted in your PE explanation podcast, you can’t be given this amount of interst and opportunity and not do something with it.

I read and listen to the alternative media everyday and the inevitable collpase of the USD gets closer and closer everyday. We need every awakened, available, and interested person to prepare for the inevitable. As one of the lucky 1000, I support opening the flood gates and welcome all the like-minded people to join this amazing movement.

Jack
I realize this is important to you and maybe to the world and especially the future of America, but most of us (MSB and casual listeners) don’t have any passion for it because we can’t afford it, are locked into where we live and mostly are surrounded by people who have no clue.

So I’m uncertain about why ….
I refer lots of people to TSP, wannabees who would like to be more prepared and want the 101 but when I send them your link, they get this milti-level marketing stuff and that’s not a good sales pitch for newbies.

Just sayin’……
I’m sorry Jack, love what you do and am MSB, but trying to use you as a resource to introduce newbies, this PERMAETHOS stuff is so far beyond them, it makes it difficult to sell your podcast to them.

But where to refer newbies? Who ya gonna call, gostbusters?
You’re IT Jack and while I enjoy your passion, I would suggest you do an ant vs grasshopper episode to which I can refer newbies to get up to speed on where you are at now, because you are going warp 7 while they are still going 55 miles per hour.

There are already many shows like this. On this very website, for example, you can hover over ‘Welcome’ on the top right and click ‘Shows for new listeners’.

I’m someone who has listened for several years but consider myself stuck in my situation. I’m trying my best to progress but I only have so much money and options. So I understand where a lot of people are coming from. I signed up for the PDC as I see that as a possible “way out” for me in the future.

Not all shows are for all listeners. Some are too advanced for me. I just choose not to listen to those ones. That’s the beauty of podcasts, you can pick and choose which ones to listen to and fast forward segments if you don’t like that segment.

Ok, not to be rude, but there are over 1300 episodes with maybe a handful that are on Permaethos. The website, members benefits and benefits to non-members speak volumes to the awesomeness that is TSP and the following alone should be a big clue to these prospective new listeners.

I’m not into every topic that Jack covers, but guess what? I don’t have to listen to every episode that he covers. That’s the beauty of it. It’s a podcast with, like I said, over 1300 episodes to choose from.

Not everyone likes every topic, but part of the reason I love this podcast is that Jack does a good job appealing to the masses. There is something for everyone at TSP.

Sorry, again…not trying to be rude or beat the dead horse. Jack and Josh both pretty much covered it.

Complete and utter BS. When a business says something and then doesn’t perform, well that business is not ethical. And to screw over the people who pay you to listen to your free podcast. Very disappointing. Not a good start. Glad to see your clones praising their own punishment. You’re doing something right I guess.

So, no care of people ethic for you eh? I’m in the founding member group and have no issue with this, the more the merrier. Are you refering to yourself as an elitist then? It’s easy to call someone a clone on here, say it to me in person. I love people who act big on the keyboard.

Maybe Jack should allow a re-sale for the 2% of assholes who want out. I’d rather not be in with them anyway.

@Dloemite exactly what are you bitching about? Please tell me how the above breaks our commitment.

1000 Founders are the limit, we are sticking to it.

Anyone else let in now pays more, keeping the commitment to the founders about that.

Providing some benefit to those in the first round DOES NOT harm the founders. Specifically if we preserve their right to first consideration, which we are.

So what pray tell are we reigning on? What promise does it break.

We absolutely never said only founders get to take the PDC, I will give you 1000 dollars of my own money if you can show me where we did so.

So go ahead I am listening since you say it is total and utter BS (without even knowing all the details by the way) tell me exactly how we have broken our word in anyway shape or form. Go ahead I am waiting. Perhaps you didn’t read or understand the above?

If Jack’s guilty of anything it’s underestimating how much we value what he has to offer and how many of us were going to POUNCE on this deal-of-the-century all at once. And the folks who missed the first boat get a second chance. From my mountain that looks like over-performance/delivery. Whatever …

I also don’t feel screwed over. I know too many people who would have liked to take the PDC and are not MSB so they never had a chance.

I don’t loose anything by this change, even if the next round were to get full founders benefits. It don’t make my benefits any less. It’s not like there is one pie and now it has to be split up amongst more people. I see it as we’re just adding more pies, and they’re not exactly the same pies at that. So I think this is a good move.

What did Jack and crew do? Underestimated demand for this initial launch of the product. What does any business do in the same situation if able? Get as much more out the door as they can without compromising the product and the customer base.

This solutions seems like that pretty concisely. PE maintains the original promises made: 1000 founders, and those after the founders will wind up paying at least a little more for the PDC.

He isn’t taking anything away from the 1000, since he has already stated that the 1000 will still get dibs over the others taking this first round of the course. It sounds like the others may get consideration over subsequent classes, which would be a great add-on value, but as long as the 1000 retain primacy what does that do negatively?

Honestly, at $800~ Lawton’s PDC is a pretty good price. I will be surprised if the PE PDC isn’t just as good, possibly better in aspects. So even if this second round pays 4-500, that is still nearly half the cost of a comparable product. And the 1000 got it AND PERKS for 1/3.

I want an example of how it is unethical to try to meet demand as best as possible, while maintaining the promises made to current customers. Where is the evidence, or even theory behind your remark?

Jack,
I and most people get that you’re in a no-win spot. You underestimated response so some people didn’t get in, but you did say limited. Some said they had issues that kept them out. Allowing a 2nd tier now is a generous offer, since otherwise they would have to wait until next class. But making them full “founders” might have upset some founders. So you found a compromise. I (and most I assume) understand and think you’re doing what’s fair. Can’t wait to start class!

I say the more the merrier. You are still capping the founders at 1000, and if there are 2000 or 20,000 students in the pdc, they still get the same product that they paid for. Take as many students as you guys can handle. All it maens for the rest of us is that you have more money to work with and can get perma ethos up and running that much faster.
As far as the haters such as dolomite,you could always offer them a refund and give their spots to someone who wants to be a part of this.
As far as people who are disinterested in permaculture, you are missing out on one of the best preparedness tools available. Anyone can use it, whether they hav e100 acres or a 80sq ft balcony, or even just a windowsill for that matter.
Keep up the good work Jack!

Well we can take that many and do a good job for the entire class. We always planned to sell the PDC to anyone that wanted a PDC and said so, just that the first round was a founding round at a HUGE discount. That is still the case the discount for founders is preserved, the additional people we let in will be paying about 500 bucks. I don’t even think Dolomite knows what he is bitching about by the way.

And actually there will be a few founders spots opened, some folks got excited and double paid because they didn’t know they got in and such. We have to refund them and get a count, etc. Right now we figure we will give those spots to the first X many that sign up in the next round, you won’t know if you got in to one till later but it seems the only fair way to give them out.

We can provide a great learning experience and good Q&A coverage with a class of 1500, we likely could with 2K but don’t want to push the limits. With the additional funds one thing we can do is provide a full time support person during the course release period to speed up what Nick and I can do and take 15 questions that are the same and consolidate them to one for us, etc. I think people like Dolomite just want to bitch about something. I mean with what we are proposing you have to be that type of person to complain, like I said the 2%.

I don’t chime in a lot, but have been a listener for several years now. I agree with Chris from MA.

I learned about Permaculture from TSP and have been educating myself about it from other podcasts and websites ever since. A few months ago I reached the conclusion that I wanted to take a PDC. When the TSP PDC was announced, I was excited – especially given the “first time” price.

Remembering, how other limited TSP offers quickly sold out in the past, such as the knives, I made damn sure that I signed up for this right at noon – even while at work.

I am really excited about this and can’t wait to begin the studies. Like Chris from MA states above, “the more the merrier” … let’s get the message out. But also, as he also alluded too above, my only concern for the first run of the class is that the number of students is set at a level that doesn’t water down the value for everyone. Meaning, that “as needed” attention and Q&A can be given to each student. Whatever that number may be is up to you all. The number 1000 was likely set for a reason, but if you all can handle more, then great, all the better for the community!

Keep up the good work Jack. Toss the nonconstructive-criticisms and sour grape comments onto the compost pile where they belong.

Jack, I am so glad you are extending to others. I am sure whatever you have planned will be fair, as that’s how you always roll! I am honored to be a founding member, and so excited to see what the future holds. There will always be whiners and naysayers. But WE will keep rolling along!

I feel like the people that would complain about this are the ones still in the “typical american mindset” or whatever. Don’t be so angry. Don’t be so me me me. Just worry about yourself. Call me overly optimistic about Permaethos but I can’t possibly imagine it being a negative thing. This could possibly change the world if it catches on, which it sounds like it has already, at least within this community. We can’t sustain our current way of living, plus why would you want to anyways…

If I do not have all of the rights of a founder, if I am paying more than anyone else, then how is this not elitist? You answer me that. You said that you didn’t think it would sell out to MSB. Final. It did. What are you going to do about that? Charge us more and take away rights? That, my friend, is wack. Your sarcastic answer is really driving my point home. You screwed up, make it right.

Oh I see you are bitching BECAUSE I AM KEEPING MY WORD. Wow, really? Good God! Yea you want in to the second round it costs more and YOU DON’T have any damn RIGHTS, you have a right to many things but you don’t have a right to tell us how to run our business.

We didn’t break our word and we are not going to. I would love to keep the price low and I would love to increase the founders positions, but I can’t and KEEP MY WORD.

I promise the first one thousand would be a hard ceiling and that they would pay less for the course. At this point I pretty much see you as petty and someone with a huge entitlement problem.

Seriously, what would you do in our situation? If you say just open it with the same privileges and price you are asking us to break our word to everyone. But since it would give YOU what YOU want we should do that right?

Jack, don’t let this guy troll you! I re joined the MSB JUST FOR THIS!!! And as it turned out, damn glad I did! This guy could have just as easily joined (he had MONTHS of notice) and taken a while to get in on the deal. Now he doesn’t want to pay $500 for a $1000 PDC. Simply because he knows somebody got it for less. I say let five hundred more in, that will give PE capital if it needs it. Heck you may need some roundup, who knows 😉

I smell a troll here. Dolomite please do us all a favor and DO NOT sign up for this – if you ever had any intention to in the first place. I’m looking forward to an awesome course and experience with PE in the months and years ahead. Folks like you who only want to stir the s#!t would only hold us back. There is nothing to “make right” here. It appears to me that the OWNERS of this business we are choosing to work with are trying to merely help more people while enhancing our long term experience. You have no “rights” to tell them how to do this. You are obviously disturbed (in every sense of that word) about this. Perhaps you should turn off your computer and take a nice walk…in traffic.

I think you are being a bit too harsh there at the end. Just the in traffic part.

That said I don’t think he is a troll, his email does show up in the MSB as a paying member.

I think he is just upset he didn’t get in, but what he is asking us to do is break our word. My hope is in time he will realize that, but I can’t make him.

The very stance of “I didn’t get in and even though you promised something I want you to break that promise so I can have what I feel I deserve”, is childish. He says that is a “personal” attack, it isn’t. That IS the stance of a child and it is his current stance.

When people are upset they say things they don’t mean or say shit without thinking, GOD KNOWS I do it.

I just hate to see people be petty and it actually breaks my heart to see people upset that something good happened for someone else. The reason is as I keep saying is such people never get what they want because that mindset REPELS success.

Again though I gave my word, I don’t break it, EVER. If anyone has a problem with that, well, I would rather have one hundred mad at me for keeping my word than have one person mad at me for breaking it. The difference is that one person would be right.

You know we are not skating by on a technicality. When in the future we open this course again we will likely sell it for 700-800 and it will be WELL WORTH EVERY PENNY. FTR Dolomite and his opinions will have no influence on price or what we do. Price is likely to be 500, that is actually really, really fair for what we are doing. Again the Producer alone is beyond anything anyone has ever done from a quality stand. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2097997/?ref_=nmbio_bio_nm

I’m quite optimistic that it will be worth every penny at 500, 700, or 800 or even 1000.

My point is that I doubt most of the 1000 who got signed in (which includes me) would feel slighted or ripped off if you opened it up to more people at 325 or 350. I do very much understand the “value” of a permaculture movement at this point in history, not just for any of us as individuals, but for all of us as a human society (perhaps I’ve just read too much Dmitry Orlov).

I guess from my perspective, you’ve been given a rare opportunity to help change the lives of a lot of people for the better, and the more people you can help, all the better still because IMO, permaculture is the only solution human society has left.

Dolemite
WHAT PART ABOUT JACK KEEPING HIS WORD DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
1000 founders Cap = WORD
Discounted Launch Price= WORD.
Later PDC costing more = WORD.
Jack saying he “didn’t think it would sell out to MSB” is an Assumption. If you read all the post over the last three days hopefully you will be able to see that many including me just recently joined TSP so we would get a better chance of getting the PDC launch. If it wasn’t for the PDC I may still be free loading like you and getting TSP for free.
You should be thankful jacks giving you a chance.

Rights? There are supposed rights? If you miss out on the best seats at a concert because a browser crashed or you couldn’t get to a PC, is it the band’s fault?

Jack said he didn’t THINK it would sell out. I figured it would… So I made sure to be there and I managed to get in. The operative word there was THINK. Jack is many things but he ain’t a fortune teller… I don’t think he screwed up at all.

In some ways I did screw up. I underestimated the response but life comes with NO REWIND BUTTON, I made a promise and I always keep my word, always.

We did deep thinking on this, very deep. We easily could justify more students they place NO BURDEN on things at all, up to a set number, none.

Three things were promised

1. Founders would get BENEFITS that others would not. The biggest being first consideration. That is the one that can create a conflict, so no one else is going to get it. Commitment is being kept 100%.

2. The course would be sold to founders for less than we would sell it for in the future, that commitment is being kept 100%. Letting more in the course doesn’t violate that promise at all, selling it for the same price would.

3. There would only be 1000 founders EVER. Now look, that is the one that we really were dead hard line on, I can’t break that, ever and in never.

Someone should explain to Dolomite that even if we refer to the benefits as rights they are obtained by being in the first 1000, which he didn’t get in as one of. I can’t “take away” a right or a benefit or a privilege from him that he NEVER HAD.

Again I would love to make more room, but I can’t, it would absolutely break my word and there is no way around it. The three commitments must be kept and the most fair solution to them be found, I think we have that.

I think Jack is being very honest with his self-assessment. If I were in his shoes here, I would feel like I screwed up on estimating demand, too.

I also understand the need to set goals one sees as reasonably reachable, and I think when Jack set the goal initially 1000 seemed quite doable but maybe not certain. The only hack I could really take at the estimation is not giving some extra weight to us crashing the system with the video release. But, that is also hindsight.

It is good if Jack kicks himself, just a little, about this; it means he will be better prepared for it next time. That is how we learn things the hard way, and that’s okay.

I’m really glad that you guys have found a way to stay sincere and live up to your promises while providing more opportunities for those of us that didn’t make it in as founders AND to do more for PE at the same time.

Always with the personal bashing. I am a unhappy consumer to you. Nothing more, nothing less, and should be treated accordingly. Is that how businesses work? By belittling customers? Are going to tell me now that I started it?
I suck it up, that’s what I do. You made a mistake, fix it. You have every other person on here admitting their mistakes on why they couldn’t sign up (most work). Do what’s right. Support the people who support you.

I can’t fix it, and yea you are acting entitled. How about I give you your 50 bucks from the MSB back so you feel that you didn’t get ripped off when you bought it even though at the time PermaEthos didn’t exist.

Sorry you are being kind of like a kid tossing a tantrum here, really you are. If you read your own words detached it would be obvious to even you.

Your a an unsatisfied customer of what PermaEthos? MSB were never guaranteed into PermaEthos Founder’s program, just first shot, that is all and you got that didn’t you. You can’t be an unhappy PermaEthos customer because you never bought a thing from PermaEthos. You are NOT a PermaEthos customer.

So if you want your 50 bucks back tell me, I pretty much refund any MSB that wants one, just about ever under any circumstances.

But really go read your own posts, you are not just complaining you are demanding that the world bend to your needs.

Not all mistakes can be fixed you know, or do you. The mistake was on my end here but if we did 1500 there is no guarantee you’d have gotten in anyway is there.

Anyway be pissed if you want and be petty if you choose but the fact are simple, we made a promise and we are keeping it and since it inconvenience you, you;d prefer that we break our word to suit your needs.

Now that is the case and call it a personal attack if you want but that stance is not one of a man, it is one of a child. It frankly sounds like a kindergarten level tantrum to me.

God help us I am still reading posts to see what everyone is saying and it is unreal.

Even I thought it would not go this fast and then I listened to my “Spidey Sense ” and said to myself why take a chance be ready when the start pistol goes off to start the race.
I came in at about 759.

Jack you are a great man, but you should have had some patch compound to fix the leak in the dam instead of your finger. The dam broke and you were swept out to sea from all the demand for this. Lol

I’ll trust your judgement and be part of the 98% of the 1,000 founders who will be happy with and supportive of what you decide to do. The truth is that I don’t think that ANYONE anticipated that the demand would be as great as it proved to be in reality. 1,000 in 107 minutes was insanely fast and if there were not problems with some paypal transactions, it would have sold out even faster. Honestly that is a “problem” all entrepreneurs would love to have and a “problem” that when properly addressed can be a win-win-win solution for PermaEthos, the 1,000 Founders, and the next round of people.

Actually, having been part of the MT Knives launch–I’m Stakeholder 66, by the way, if someone wants to buy the next knife–which sold out in something like six minutes based only on Jack’s support, I figured this venture would sell out in the MSB. I do wish Jack had reserved some spots for those of us not in the MSB but that’s life. Also, I live in Japan so timing would have been difficult anyway. I’ll consider the PDC if it makes it out of the MSB, but we’ll see.

Tell you how I feel about anyone that really wanted in and wasn’t MSB. You can join with a monthly membership for 5 bucks. Once you do you could cancel, get 30 days of access and move on.

Is that abusing the system? Does anyone do it for certain reasons? You bet. Is it a lot of people? No I would say half a dozen a year, that is why I have left the option for the large number of people who like it to be a small monthly charge. Especially people with the service discount that get it for about $3.75

Now I am not going to broadcast this and encourage people to do it but I do feel that anyone that really wanted in could pony up an additional 5 bucks or they didn’t really want it.

Fair enough and I’m not complaining. As I said, once I heard the MSB had first shot I figured I wouldn’t have a shot and was cool with that. Although, if the goal is to promote permaculture outside the choir, setting aside 100 spots would have been nice. On the other hand, the MSB are so dedicated to this cause–as the past few days have shown–having 100 more people with that dedication on board is almost certainly the best way to go. (And simpler for you.)

Also, for the record, if I do join the MSB, I promise it won’t be to play games. It will be for the long haul to support the show and the future (and, I’ll admit, to get a few discounts here and there, although I’ll have to check what I can get sent to Japan).

Congratulations on the success of this venture. And congratulations to the Founders. I hope they live up the PermaEthos goals.

@Mr. Blather you said, ” Although, if the goal is to promote permaculture outside the choir, setting aside 100 spots would have been nice.”

With total respect to you, I totally disagree, here is why.

Anyone non MSB right now wanting in has GOT TO BE JUST WANTING A GREAT PDC CHEAP, hence they are in it because they are already permaculture minded. Frankly there is no group more fired up about Permaculture “outside the choir” then the MSB. Frankly TSP is the only outlet that is really successfully converting people beyond “the usual suspects” to Permaculture that I know of anyway.

Again though since a monthly membership to the MSB is five bucks, anyone that won’t spend that to get in, really just doesn’t need to take a spot.

I can’t even understand WHY I would ever set aside a block of seats for people that basically would be saying, for whatever reason, “I refuse to support what TSP is doing, even at five dollars for one month”.

PermaEthos exists because of the TSP audience and their support. It is really that simple.

I’m acting like a baby? Sure. Whatever, computer insults don’t affect me. Do I want my money back? Get real. You and the clones can ‘f’ with me all you want, I’m not going away. I believe in this sh*t. And I’m pissed that I am not in and that there is another ‘class’. That is so not Permaculture. Let’s just agree to disagree that in this instance that mistakes were made and you are not willing to go the extra mile and I’m acting like a child.

Dolemite,you dont need me to dig your dirt ditch… but I will anyway. Grow up and stop being a whiny little biotch! Nothing but love though. Am I disappointed that I didnt get in? Sure. I kept punch that little button but The server said, nah you bother me boy, go away! lol. These things happen and then (if you’re an adult) you move on. Im happy for everyone who made it. To be truthful, Im almost as happy that you didnt. Yeah, I know, uncool but your self serving comments are starting to annoy me. >:(

Jack, excellent job of offering a superior learning package at an affordable price! You go, bro! 🙂 Oh… sorry for taking the low road, but some things push too many buttons. So says The Clone.

I’m sorry you’re upset that you didn’t get into the first 1K. There will be another shot to get into this first run of the PDC you could try for or you can wait until the next time the PDC is offered. Also, there are many other teachers with other experiences and media you can indulge in.

Seriously and this isn’t a dig but based on his tantrum I think a “different instructor” is a good idea. I am an anarchist LEANING libertarian. Joe and Nick are full on 100% anarchists.

Dolomite seems like the type of person that would prefer what Paul Wheaton calls, “Purple Permaculture”. That isn’t an insult it is just an acknowledgement that in Permaculture there are some more interested in “feelings”, “politics” and “social justice” then hard core design, practical application and productivity along with on the ground results. These folks see permaculture as a way to right wrongs such as “economic inequality” and “white privilege”.

And you know what Eric Tosenmier and Dave Jacke are in that group and I admire their actual on the ground real world work, but I would not take or recommend anyone take a PDC from either of them, if they are of the typical TSP mindset.

I would do a workshop with a concrete objective with either but not a PDC, but I’d recommend them to Dolomite, he could look up Michale Polowski (aka Skeeter, not sure on spelling his last name) too. Apparently Skeeter hates me because I do and teach permaculture and I own and recommend others own scary black guns. But I love Michael as a practitioner in spite of his personal feelings about me. I have nothing bad to say about his knowledge just his politics.

I think Dolomite would be happier with any of these of some teacher from this Purple sector of Permaculture.

I think he should go there to get his education, I don’t think he is going to like our PDC and should not take it if we gave it to him for free. He will hate the way Joe teaches the third ethic and prime directive, it will drive him nuts.

Oh than just wait for the last chapter, chapter 14, the alternative global nation chapter. No instructor wants to do that one, you always try to sucker a “prominent guest instructor” into doing it. Man it is tough to do. No matter how hard you try some students will be butt hurt, too much socialism, not enough, etc. WOW!

Not Joe it is his favorite subject! Anarcho permaculture, respect for individual rights, voluntary association and shared abundance on a 100% voluntary basis only.

Based on what Dolomite has said about “elitism” and “different class” and them not being permaculture and his clear lack of understanding the very definition of said words, I think if he listens to Joe teach chapter 14 he might have a stroke or an aneurism or something.

Again not putting him down I just really think he’d get a better experience from a different type of instructor than Joe, Nick and I.

I’m still signing up. Unless you don’t let me. Chapter 14 is also my favorite. Sorry I rained on your parade. That was the only thing you said yesterday that I agreed with, that I should have been happy for you for your success. Well, I am. For the people who I get heated with I still understand that I have more in common with them than I don’t. I’m not that willing to easily dismiss someone because of different opinions or how they express them. I am so pissed about this.

“There will still be some benefits for those in the first round, but they will not be called “Founders” and not get all the founder benefits.”
I’m assuming I’m reading this wrong, because it sounds like the people who bought in at 300 are no longer Founders, but instead this second, higher paying group.

I think that was a typo. I think he meant there will be some benefits for those in the SECOND round, but they will not be called “Founders” and not get all the founder benefits.
At least that’s the way I read it.

Yea you got it right, but it isn’t typo more I worded it poorly. When I say first round I mean any student that takes the PDC the first time we do it. Where as founders are only the first 1K but everyone this time is the first round. Not round of sales but round of students.

Yea you are reading it wrong, by first round I mean first round of the PDC and the group of people let in won’t be founders, I can see how I could have worded it better.

Founder = 1 of the first 1000 to sign up

First Round = The first group of all students to take the PDC, founder or not.

So what I am saying is when we open it next weekend the people that get in will get some added benefit over say people that take this course in 2015. They just won’t be founders and won’t get the first consideration provision as such.

I was waiting around for 5/20 when it was first supposed to go live and at that point was set on buying in. Then the date got changed and Jack kept saying he didn’t think it would sell out so I didn’t rush to read the email that was sent out. I figured I would log in later and buy my slot. Then I got home from fire training all the slots were gone. I guess it’s hard to know for sure how well something like this will be go. I wish I would have been able to get in. I’m not sure there is a fair way of doing it, that will make 100% happy. It’s hard to for me to justify an extra $200 for the same thing, minus some of the benefits. I think I will sit on the side lines and watch how it goes.

If you don’t have another PDC avenue right now, and want a PDC though, I would suggest giving it a lot of hard thought over the week. Even though that is just one more person to try and beat me to getting my gal a PDC slot, I don’t think you will find a better value anytime in the foreseeable future than a 4-500$ PDC with this production value.

Honestly since we think there is more demand than we can handle we are raising the price not only to keep our word but to get customers that REALLY WANT what we are selling.

That said, you are welcome to sit it out, no problem but know this, when we do an actual second round of this course after the majority of the first students have submitted their designs, it is going to be MORE than the 500 dollars. Likely 700 which is a very fair price for what we are providing.

I am sure there will be bitching about that when we do it. LOL.

When we do that the Q&A will be totally full with the previous classes questions and the course will be totally loaded and ready to roll. The five hundred is a discount for those reasons and those alone.

We are not jacking up the price as some might say here, we are raising half way to the final retail price that it will sell for in the future.

Again no animosity to anyone that says the price is too high at all, just want no one coming back in the second class and saying, “I didn’t know”.

Perhaps the only thing that could have been done differently in hindsight, is to allow each member ONE spot during the first 24-48 hours and then allow additional spots to members. Listening to all the podcasts leading up to “opening day” it sounds like there really were concerns that they wouldn’t sell all the spots (and hence, encouraged multiple courses per family). Lots of those folks (family and friends) aren’t even TSP members or listeners, so it’s really unfortunate that they took spots that paying members should have gotten. Who knew…?

My initial response was “what’s special about being the first 1,000 if we are just going to let more in just because of the speed at which the first 1,000 sold?” Jack might have underestimate the rate at which the spots would sell, but did all of the listeners? In considering how many people wanted to just sponsor the initial plan, I knew it would go fast. I was even getting a little annoyed when Jack was “selling” the idea (for lack of a better term) by saying the benefits were worth the money, even if you don’t want to get certified at the end of the course. If a regular PDC costs $1000+, it would be a long time before I could afford to take such a course. To encourage people to purchase the course even if they might not be very interested in the information taught was frustrating to me since this is the only time I can afford to take it, and I actually want to take the class to learn the info.

That said, I think what Jack has proposed sounds fair. I think that, at the possible $400/class, it is still ridiculously discounted for the value even without all the benefits. It is another opportunity for those who can’t afford a PDC at a regular price to get in and learn. It seems to me that change starts with me. I want to learn the info so I can use it. I hope it will grow and Ill be able to get a farm going that can be attached to a bigger business, such as PermaEthos, but the more people who get permaculture farms going, whether connect to PE or not, the better.

Don’t get me wrong, I am excited to have the benefits of a founding member, but are we signing up for benefits or to learn get these farms going? This is an amazing opportunity for the ones who missed out to still get in and learn. I appreciate that Jack is not giving all the benefits, because he said he would limit it to 1,000 Founders, and he is sticking to that, but still making the information available for more people who have helped keep Jack in business to even make this happen in the first place.

I give Jack credit for coming up with a fair solution. I am sorry that some people think we can’t think for ourselves and that we are just followers or clones. I don’t agree with everything Jack says, but I do like the majority or I wouldn’t be here. I take what he says, and I apply it however it fits to my life.

Anyway, sorry for the length of the post. 🙂 I am really excited to be a part of this. Thanks Jack for putting all this together and for the effort you’ve put into all this. You are being far more polite than I would like to be, if in your position.

I missed out on the launch. I would have bought one for me and one for my lady if I hadn’t, just because I see the value and wanted to support PE. I’ll be getting a Lawton PDC, so I’ll just be getting one for her, if I can, and enjoying the knowledge with her.

I can’t imagine the PDC being worth less than $500 in reality, just on its own.

It’s a fair compromise. The additional revenue will allow the PermaEthos concept to come to fruition even faster/better. It allows the first 1,000 the originally stated benefits. In some ways, I feel a little guilty that I was able to get 2 spots (for myself and my husband) and so many others were unable to get even one. Congratulations Jack! The overwhelming success of this launch shows how important this is and the value it represents.

I don’t know if it has already been said as I can’t be bothered reading all the banter back and forth, but the only that could have been done differently, hindsight being what it is, is to allow each MSB member only ONE PDC course for the first 24-48. Then if there were slots available, they could buy for family and friends.

The bummer is, most of the family and friends who did get in are not supporting members. They may not even be listeners. Unfortunately, it seemed like there was a lot of “concern” or uncertainty that the 1000 spots would fill so we were all encouraged to purchase more than one course. If Jack had known how popular this course would be, he could have limited it to one per member first and see how it went. Then if there were spaces left, MSB members could buy a second or tenth course, but not until we all got a chance to register. It is true, many of us had to work on Friday and checking email or using the internet on the job is not only inappropriate (since we are on our bosses dime), it’s also not always feasible.

Guess it also could have opened on Saturday when most folks would have been off from work. Such is life.

Since Jack has to honor his commitment to the first 1000, he can’t “undo” this even if he agrees it could have been done better. That’s why they call it hindsight. I, like many others, will have an alarm set and my computer in front of me on the 31st and hope that I’ll get a chance at the next registration, though I’m bummed to have to pay $100 more than others, if I even get in… This initiative has already raised $300,000. Though PDC courses are expensive (I already did one through Geoff Lawton), Jack did say he wanted this to be a unique and special arrangement for the people who help pay the bills for him and his family. Sounds like he’s doing the best he can given the fact that he can’t go back and to it over.

If I understand this correctly, you are mad simply because you didn’t get into the first 1000 to be a Founder? Seriously? If that’s what you are mad about then you really need to get over yourself. If you really believe in this stuff like you say you do, then you should be excited at the chance to be able to take a PDC at such a discounted price. I have wanted to take another PDC for quite some time but to be honest, I simply cannot afford it. When Jack said they would be offering this one I knew I had to get in on it. Not for the status of being a Founder but for the information and educational opportunities it will provide to myself and my family.

I was lucky and was able to get in yesterday. I only signed up for one because that’s all I had budgeted for and my husband is not interested in the certification but wants to take advantage of the info. I understand about wanting the advantages of being a Founder but if that is the only reason you wanted to take the PDC then you are completely missing the point. There are many who want this opportunity and I feel bad that not everyone was able to sign up that wanted to but like many things, that is the way the cookie crumbles.

I trust whatever decision Jack and the others make. This is a business and has to be run as such.

Call me a clone I’ll call you a clown, end of the day life rolls on. No wonder I disengaged from society years ago, every organized endeavor has p c whiners that negate progress. I’m here cuz I think this one has a shot at being mature enough to overcome p c paralysis. Smile and take a shit, dude.

Jack I’m in your 98%. I’m so pumped for this! As for the assclowns bitching and saying crap like MLM and elitist permaculture. All I have to say to you guys is GROW UP and learn what the real meaning of the words you use. To me you guys sound like a bunch of whiny parents at a baseball game that thinks everyone including their little Johnny deserves a trophy for picking his nose, and chasing butterflies in the outfield. Being a ball coach I have to deal with that but I expect more from even new TSP listeners. Have you learned nothing from Jack? Sorry the rant is done. I just get pissed off when morons try to bring a good man done with stupidity!

I think Jack may have hedged on earlier posts about adding 200-300 more founders. But guess what people, this isnt just jacks decision either. He has partners. I run a business with partners. It doesn’t always go your way in every decision but you live with the majority or you pull or sell your stake. This is too important to lose a company and a movement. End of day jack and his partners made a statement and then made the best possible choice based on that. If people cant understand that then they need to pound sand or get over it.

Some of this makes you wonder if some people want a badge that says founder more than a PDC.

I’m no hippie but instead of looking at this as a situation where “i didn’t get what I want” or ” but you said this would happen” look at it like this:

-Isn’t it cool that so many people TSP want to get in on a project.

-The fact that its massively oversubscribed means a genuinely innovative, genuinely permaculture based business model, is more likely to be a success.

Anyone that has ever run a business knows that being in demand is almost as bad as having no demand, there is no guide to how to do all this stuff you just have to hold on to your ass and try not to be a dick.

I’ll toss my 2¢ in. I’m not ever going to be a true permaculturist. I take ideas from permaculture and incorporate them into my planning/plantings. If we would have gotten into late next week with significant open founder slots I would have jumped in. Not for the PDC, not for the future benefits to “founders” but to support effort.

Without this podcast I never would have discovered arctic kiwi, seaberry or wood core raised beds all of which I am experimenting with this year.

Jack, as someone disappointed that I didn’t get into the first 1000, I’m also disappointed that you are not extending it past 1000. BUT I think you made the right decision. So that makes me the 2% and the 98%! I surely hope I get in the next round because I’ve been looking forward to your PDC ever since you announced it. Now get yourself a beer and relax for a while. You’ve really been taking care of us in this kafuffle. Now you need to take care of yourself. We appreciate you, Jack.

@Dolomite. Jack didn’t make a mistake, he made a prediction that turned out to be inaccurate. He made that prediction over a month ago. If you really wanted into the first 1000, and actually gave a shit you had plenty of time to become an MSB member or a Brink of Freedom member and get access to the link yesterday. I would argue that, if you knew there was limited resources and a lot of excitement about something, anything, and you left availability to chance instead of giving yourself every advantage available to be at the front of the line (which is why people used to camp out by apple stores the week before a new iphone released) then it’s your own fault if inventory (founding memberships) ran out. You had opportunity that you didn’t take. You had as much knowledge about the excitement as anyone here, including Jack. No one ever said “there will for sure be menberships available Monday”. Stop bitching and insulting someone for holding to promises made.

I told Jack in an email yesterday that I thought it wasn’t fair, but I also admitted life isn’t always fair. I want you to know, Jack, that I don’t think you yourself were being unfair. You did what you said you’d do. You kept your word, and while keeping your word you managed to find a way to give some of us a second chance.

I have seen the prices for Geoff Lawton’s PDC, and knew that this offer for PermaEthos Founders was a fantastic deal. I could help PE get off the ground with the flagship farm and get a PDC at the same time. And then Jack went on and on with the benefits ‘Founders’ would get. I’m thinking to myself, “Shut up, Jack! You’ve said enough.” He marketed the heck out of this product and it sold out quick. I knew it would.

I was initially hoping to wait until I got home from work on the day it was offered and sign up within the first 24 hours before it was released to non-members of the MSB. And then I thought about the “hard sell” he’d been doing on the podcast lately. I trusted my gut and started trying to get on the site by 12:00. When It took me another 5-10 minutes just to get the link to open, my first thought was still that it was due to the lousy data reception on my phone, not that all of us listeners were slamming the server. I managed, by 12:15, to have the site open, the “product in my cart,” and was in the process of checking out by PayPal when my phone froze up.

Again, I thought it was because of a known issue of data connectivity at my location. I emailed Jack. By the time I received his reply the course was sold-out. Only later did I find out that the real reason for the delay in getting on the site was traffic and the freeze in my checkout process was due to my bank issuing PayPal a “suspicious activity” report on the occasion of my order. I was there. I ordered before it sold out. I still didn’t get in. I still don’t think it’s entirely fair. I still don’t blame Jack.

I’m with the rhythmically challenged bassist (or is it more of an intentional syncopation?) If I don’t get in now, and at a significantly reduced price, it will be a long time before I will be able to afford a standard-priced PDC. Win-win; PE gets more funding and two more feet on the ground. I get the knowledge, a certification, and hopefully a toe-hold into a position in which I can get neighbors to really associate with each other and stop sending our locally earned money to a company which manages “hundreds of community associations across the U.S.” and has “OUR best PEOPLE…managing YOUR COMMUNITY” (emphasis mine, but the words are theirs).

If I can’t afford a full-price PDC, I sure as heck can’t afford a 120+ acre farm to build the PE model, but maybe by teaching homeowners the prime directive and ethical basics of Permaculture and enabling them also with the knowledge and resources to live according to these principles we can build a real community with more peace and security and less restriction of liberty on our own .17 acre.

Thanks again, Jack, for sharing “one man’s opinion.” From everything I’ve heard, it is a well-informed opinion worthy of consideration. I can’t really shuffle any more money or change payment methods from what I did the first time. Hopefully I have appeased the big boys that bought Merrill Lynch enough so that payment can go through on the 31st. I’ll be watching tomorrow for the details. I can go $400 but $500?… even though I know it is still an incredible deal would be stretching things a bit too tight.

Definitely intentional syncopation. I was playing bass one day and realized how great the bass sounded in the off beat for that song. Needed a signname for the blog a short time later, and there it was 🙂
A side note, I am thinking Jack was talking about having some of the farms eventually involved to be a lot smaller than the 120. I don’t know how land goes down around Austin, but I think Jack was talking about down to 40, or 30, acres. Ill hopefully be looking at starting a farm with my brother and maybe by the time PE is ready to get going with more farms around the country and launching a label, we’ll be getting the farm up and running.

Can’t wait to find out the details. Although I am hoping the price point is lower than the estimated 500. That would be most of my paycheck but with luck I’ll have sold my Harley before Saturday so might have some extra money. If if the payment plan is still an option might be able to go that route but shouldn’t speculate too much.

Jack as always you are fair and this seems to be a very good way to do things in a somewhat tough situation. Sometimes with great success comes a ton of added stress, but its a good thing at the end of the day. This is one great start and the price even at added cost is still the best out there.

Holy shit!!! I can’t believe the dribbling bullshit on here. Those of us fortunate enough to have gotten enrolled are literally on the ground floor of one of the most exciting startups in permaculture history. My heart would of sank if I didn’t get in yesterday, and for a moment with the technically difficulties I really thought I was not gonna get in. We still are a community!!! This message will permeate through the community. This movement will propel the entire MSB community forward. There is plenty of “niches” to fill in the upcoming cycles of time. The swale has been built and now all of us can work together to get it planted.
Jack do what you need to do. This may be exactly what is needed to shake out a few of the bad apples. The overwhelming success of this launch hammers home how many of us believe in what you are doing. Hell I envision founders’ conferences in the years to come, discussing our successes, and round tabling the future direction of this community. The genie is out of the bottle and as a movement we are going to change our communities. Personally I feel a tremendous amount of pressure to live up to what a privilege it is to be a founder, and not squander this opportunity for myself and the community.
Enough of this dribble. Lets move forward. I am in the middle of Geoff Lawtons PDC, and I am 200 times more excited about this one. It seems more personal, closer to home, and something I can really own.
My life has changed since starting to listen to the podcast. I have listened to Jack grow and seen my personal life get stronger as a result of taking action.
Make the decision, lets get past it, and start focusing on what is ahead. There is potential for literally thousands of opportunities to spawn from this founding. I know it stings right now for those who were not able to get in, but if you really believe in what is going on here, then you know there is even more greats things around the corner. Don’t give up, because if this shakes you, than maybe you never were really wanting this to begin with.

I did not get in on the founding but hope to get in on the next run of sales. Have you thought of running 2 theirs of second chance members?
1 higher price but full pdc. (Like you have discussed.)
2 same price as the founders course but audit only, no cert, limited interaction with instructors, no review of students design, no limit to number of members.

It seems that since you would not need to “grade” or respond to audit students there would be little no added burden to PE with significant additional revenue to do good.

It would also give me a better chance of getting my spot at the full PDC table. 🙂

Good grief! Open it up again for awhile and let the people who want in IN! The 1st 1000 will always be the original founders based on the number they got when they signed up. You could base it on seniority after that. More members would definitely increase the cash flow and possibly allow you to expedite things in certain areas.

I totally understand your position Jack and agree that you need to keep your word. But I am extremely disappointed that I was not able to purchase one of the founders slots. I have been in this from the beginning, signed up to be an investor in PermaEthos 1.0, attended your Urban Design workshop, and am a Lifetime MSB member. I was watching on the 20th and 21st when the sales were supposed to launch, but there was no update. Then I was traveling for business in Asia on the 22nd and next thing I know I’ve missed out. Hopefully I can get in quickly enough on Saturday to obtain any extra founders slots that might open up due to technical issues.

A truly adult thing to do and I have to say, I don’t think long term that there will be any harm to your actual position in the world if you come in on the second round of sales. I mean there are some cool things founders will get that others won’t but such is life. Your disappointment is understandable and your way of articulating it professional and adult. There are others that could learn from you.

Right now I think the biggest thing people are concerned about other than just “being in the club” is the remote element partnerships. I will tell you the chance of anyone coming on the second round not getting into such is ZILCH.

Here is why, we would easily take 1500 into either the Bee Program or the Nursery Program. Why, 50 states divided into 1500 members is an aggregate average of 30 whopping folks a state, say a given high density state doubles that well that would be 60 in a state. Given on Cooper Street counting Lowes, Walmart and Home Depot plus the independents there are SIX big nurseries doing break neck business all spring, summer and fall long in a ONE MILE stretch, I do think we’d have room for 60 in an entire state, don’t you?

Next this would require the following, to even play out.

1. We have to sell out the 500 additional seats at the higher price, could happen but I am not betting on it. Even the founding round it really slowed down at the end.

2. 100% of founders would ALL have to sign up for the Bee Course or the Nursery Course and fully complete it.

3. 100% would then need to make the financial investment to set up their operations, and all 100% in one of the two programs or both.

4. All would then have to submit an application to us and pass the qualification that they are doing business the PE way.

Those four things are a dream come true if they happen and frankly they logistically can’t.

People that got one for a husband and one for a wife are not going to set up two business units in the same sector are they?

The real value in first consideration is in the long term. 4-5 years down the road as we build the brand to a massive level and have a huge flock trying to get in the door. Early adopters will always be looked at as such, founders first but being in the first class will still count for something, and frankly at the number of the first class it will be good enough for basically anything you ever wish to do.

my 2 cents: I think even at a higher price it will sell out quickly. I think the slowdown was probably in respect to some of the issue you mentioned people had with paypal, and the fact that it was during a business day probably limited a lot of people..

My 3 Cents…
Count me among the 98% and not of the thousand…
It stings a little not getting “Full Founder” nod because of not being in the top 1000.

A solution… For the next round… One “Founding Member” slot per MSB member.

Reason : A lot of the PDC’s sold in the rush were for children, spouses and siblings that need to hear the word, but are not part of the movement(yet). Sadly, many of these “seeds” will never sprout. Yet they take up space in the garden.

I feel strongly that each MSB member who supports this cause in May deserves full recognition for their support of PermaEthos and the broader TSP community.

No MSB member should have to feel as Dolomite does because of “technical difficulties”.

Chime in and say if you agree or disagree.

Congratulations to everyone who is a part of this and thank you Jack for being the Lightning-Rod on this one.

Problem with that solution, there won’t be any more founders. Now could we come up with some individual farm founder program, perhaps? But that is SO DOWN THE ROAD. As far as full on PE founding members, we said 1000, hence it is 1000.

Like others have said it is sad that some people who tried didn’t get it but that is life. Life is not always fair.

As far as how Dolomite feels, NO ADULT FULLY DEVELOPED HUMAN should throw such a temper tantrum due to not getting what they wanted. There are many members of the MSB I have heard from and their opinions good and bad have been factored into our decision. Dolomite’s has and will not.

You might feel you deserve “full recognition” and tell you what, in the way you are viewed by myself and my partners you really do have it. But no one except the first 1000 will be a founder, again this is about keeping our word.

I will say this yet again, I would rather have 100 angry with me for keeping my word then 1 mad at me for breaking my word, because the 1 would be right.

Apology for Jack
Friday I violated one of my personal principals and responded to an event when I was angry. In doing so, I expressed my disappointment in a poor and insulting manner. For that I am truly sorry for my behavior.
Now that I have cooled off, I know you will do what is right. You have proven that many times over the years.
My only comment is that I wish you the best with this venture and wither I get in the course or not, I will follow and enjoy your success.

Well, I’ve just read a smattering of these posts, and I will say from up here in Canada, I’m happy that Americans are taking this with such passion. This is an incredible venture. One thing I struggle with is the blunt trauma force I run up against when people think I’m a “Green Hipster, Income redistribution socialist, ” or whatever moniker is put on people who live independently and grow their own food and I keep going to these meetings and social gatherings, then I find out they are all these political overtones of “Eat the rich”, “Social Justice”, “Women’s Oppression” and “The Rich have to pay their fair share” and I just walk way thinking, WTF?. Are there no fiscally conservative, independent preppers who simply look after themselves and are apolitical? Just because I have solar power doesn’t mean I hate “The man” or because I grow my own food doesn’t mean I despise Con-Agra for Cargil. I know Im rambling at this point, but seriously people. Jack’s a pragmatist, and a businessman. This is a huge undertaking considering the man has to look after his own life and his wife. We should all be enjoying the ride with him at this point, whether you got in or not. I really have to re listen to the podcasts dealing with PermaEthos and PDC. There seems to be some bellyaching and complaining and for Chrisssakes, we are living in dangerous times and Jack’s timing on this is excellent. Let’s give him as much support as possible for this huge undertaking…

As a listener from back in the vw days who has been to multiple events and has taken an active approach with modern day survival, permaculture and gaining new skills. I can say as that I was bummed I couldn’t get in early, but as an adult, a supporter and friend to the community I really don’t need a founders designation, just an opportunity to support my friends with an amazing project and if I get additional bennifits in the process that’s great. I’m happy with whatever.

Jack, I am a founding member and support you 110%. I have no issues with introducing you to new members as there is plenty of content to get them started. The dedicated listeners are growing and maturing with you on this journey and right now it is about Permaethos.