Posted
by
Zonk
on Sunday October 08, 2006 @05:39PM
from the where-nerds-are-kings dept.

The New York Times has up an article today looking at the phenomenon of videogame players treated like rockstars in the forward-thinking nation of South Korea. There, where televised gaming is all the rage, the appearance of a favorite player can provoke a reaction not unlike a teeny-bopper concert. From the article: "The objects of the throng's adoration were a dozen of the nation's most famous athletes, South Korea's Derek Jeters and Peyton Mannings. But their sport is something almost unimaginable in the United States. These were professional video gamers, idolized for their mastery of the science-fiction strategy game StarCraft. With a panel of commentators at their side, protected from the throbbing crowd by a glass wall, players like Lim Yo-Hwan, Lee Yoon Yeol and Suh Ji Hoon lounged in logo-spangled track suits and oozed the laconic bravado of athletes the world over. And they were not even competing. They were gathered for the bracket selection for a coming tournament season on MBC Game, one of the country's two full-time video game television networks. And while audiences watched eagerly at home, fans lucky enough to be there in person waved hand-lettered signs like 'Go for it, Kang Min' and 'The winner will be Yo-Hwan {oheart}.' " ESPN, take note.

I think they're severely degarding the meaning of the phrase "forward thinking" here. Being lauded for playing a computer game is rather pathetic. Computer games are fun, but they're not real life accomplishments. Apparently, marketing is done excreting the words "forward thinking" out of every orifice, so now it's been handed down another level to those who don't even have real jobs (no, playing games for a living is unproductive and not a job).

(no acting for a living is unproductive and not a job) - believed by the wife of one of my friends whose from China...(no sports for a living is unproductive and not a job) - believed by at least a few dozen people I'm sure...(no racing for a living is unproductive and not a job) - believed by anyone who has watched Taladega Nights...

What (by chance) makes you think your opinion is somehow more realivent than anyone elses?

actually that was 'relevent', sorry didn't spell check... but I would have thought this spelling would have jumped out as the sentance clearly defined the word I was trying to spell...FYI:Relevent- Function: adjectiveEtymology: Medieval Latin relevant-, relevans, from Latin, present participle of relevare to raise up -- more at RELIEVE1 a : having significant and demonstrable bearing on the matter at hand b : affording evidence tending to prove or disprove the matter at issue or under discussion c : having

Yeah you can hide in the corner, blind-fold yourself and yell Beatles sucks, Elvis sucks, Bob Dylan sucks or whatever. You don't have to like any of those artists nor Starcraft. But you don't like it doesn't mean it sucks.

Your comparison breaks down because The Beatles had talent, Bob Dylan has talent, Elvis had talent, so someone saying "Bob Dylan sucks" is perhaps trying to incite something, maybe they are simply a blowhard about what they like/dislike, or whatever but that does not remove the talent these artists have. Starcraft on the other hand just plain sucks.

This is the exact point there - you are exactly trying to incite something with absolutely no justification for your argument. At least you point out why th

My problem with this is that it isn't skill in "videogames" in general that they're displaying, per se, nor stratigic thinking. At that level of Starcraft, twitch becomes as important as it is in first person shooters, and everything else takes a back seat. I'd like to see competitive showings of games that aren't all twitch speed. I have nothing against Starcraft; I'd be hard pressed to argue for any other game as my all-time favorite. I just can't see myself watching it, any more than I watch tennis or ping-pong (not that they don't get airtime).

That said, since twitch becomes so important, they really do deserve to be called "Athletes."

Not only is skill questionable so is the repeatability of these performances. I dont see how this is any different than those old game magazines showing us the guy who played ms pacman for 96 hours straight. The submitted wrote "forward thinking" and I dont feel that there is anything forward about this, just different. As far as the teeny-bopper effect goes, well, my friends and I still love the beatles and there is little question about their talent, output, and effect on rock music. I doubt we'll he

Except your ignoring the fact that you do not play Ms. Pacman versus another human. These people are competing against each other just like any other type of competitive sport, only difference being that they are behind a computer. Whether or not using a computer makes you an athelete is irrelevent, these people are still competitors.

Korean pros practice for so long not to increase their handspeed (which is as fast as it can get) but to get a better grasp on the strategy of the game.

We measure handspeed by BWChart, which calculates your ActionsPerMinute in a game. True - top pros have about 500 or so APM while a newbie has about 60. But one German player (Fisheye) managed to place second at World Cyber Games with an APM of less than 200.

Mouse speed matters none if you don't know what to click or where. Strategy makes up maybe 80% of the game; speed makes up the rest. It's like poker where lukc matters surprisingly little. Just as a bad poker player can't make any use of his luck, a bad starcraft player can't make use of his handspeed.

I'd like to second this. I'm actually living in South Korea and working as an English teacher, and the pros on the two gaming channels are absolutely *amazing*. For instance, I would have never thought to race three or four SRVs over to your enemy's base, along with a pack of marines, build a few supply depots & block the opponent in, then build a barracks and slowly fill up the opponent's base with marines. It's ridiculous how good these guys are, and it has more to do with strategy and tactics than it does with how fast they can mouse.

Does that mean that these cyber-athletes deserve to be rich and famous? No idea. But here, Starcraft is as valid a sport as soccer - and that's saying something.

I have bad news for you, that player was just toying with you. Building that many SCVs and then transporting them by shuttle right into someone's base would have been suicide if the other player was modestly competent and had resources left. It's a fun strategy, but it was only viable because the other guy was really playing badly.

For his part Mr. Lim cultivates a relatively low-key image. He knows that at 27 he is nearing the end of his window as an elite player... But he said experience could make up for a few milliseconds of lost reflexes.

"The faster you think, the faster you can move," he said. "And the faster you move, the more time you have to think. It does matter in that your finger movements can slow down as you age. But that's why I try harder and I work on the flexibility of my fingers more th

"I just can't see myself watching it"Allot of people say that here in the states, and I think that has more to do with presentation than game itself. No one has done it right to my knowledge (at least not in the US). We had that arcade game show on Nickelodeon (it wasn't too bad as a game show itself, but was far from a game centered around gaming), and Arena on G4 (which among other things edited the game play down too much for formating into the time slot, and had terrible commentators interrupting gam

Like most competitions with physical qualities, that which truly seperates the best players from the next tier is the speed at which the best players are capable of performing the same tasks. Watch a college football game and then compare it to a high school football game. The change of tempo is obvious. Think of it like boxing, different players have different hand speeds, and different reaction times.

That's exactly my point. I didn't say that the game is invalid, or that it isn't strategy; I said that i

They've played Starcraft for a while now, but they'll stop playing eventually. They used to play Quake, but now they're playing something else, and soon they'll abandon that and play yet another new game. Compare this to chess or any of the physical sports that have been practised for centuries or millennia. Gaming is quite unlike any sport (that I can think of) because the "sport" keeps changing. It's like using tennis rackets but changing the rules and the playing area every few years. If you're competing with consoles, then even the controller keeps changing. Everything is completely transient. Can you think of a sport or similiar activity that is similiar to video gaming in this way? What about hardware and software settings - does everyone use the same gear and settings in tournaments? It's really amazing what kind of a difference your mouse can make.

Anyway, it's cool that people are competing in computer and video gaming, but I just can't take it seriously as a professional "sport" for some reason. I don't think there's really even any effort in video gaming. Anyone can do it. Those guys just sit on their asses twelve hours a day, play a video game and drink Coca-Cola. Kind of like every other hardcore gamer on the planet, but the only difference is that for some reason they're just a little better than others... with the current game, anyway. There just isn't any real effort involved. Think about how much effort someone needs to put into a sport like boxing. All the training, conditioning, repetition, injuries... if we compare video gaming with something like chess, I don't think it still qualifies. Chess is an ancient and well-established game, and being the best isn't quite as simple as being the best Counter-Strike player. It requires more effort, more intelligence, more talent, more training.

I disagree with you. Is not sport becuause has not been played for eons? HAHA. Bah.Hee... I want to say that:

People that play games like athletes ruin the fun for everyone else. The way these poeple play kill all the dumbed down casual fun around. Gamming become something stressing, about perfection, fast reflex and the ladder, who is better than XYZ. That competitiviness can be cool for some teenagers, I guest, teenagers are already competitive, but for normal people is somewhat disgusting.

People that play games like athletes ruin the fun for everyone else. The way these poeple play kill all the dumbed down casual fun around.

Some games have already started to solve that problem. For example, Age of Mythology tries to match players with equal skill levels, and assigns a slight handicap if there is no equal-skill matching available.

A more obvious example would be Sin Episodes, where you have visible results of the difficulty level being adjusted on the fly. The only difference is this is s

I don't think there's really even any effort in video gaming. Anyone can do it. Those guys just sit on their asses twelve hours a day, play a video game and drink Coca-Cola. Kind of like every other hardcore gamer on the planet, but the only difference is that for some reason they're just a little better than others... with the current game, anyway. There just isn't any real effort involved.

I was once told by a lecturer that if you want to be world class at something, you need to spend at least three so

I totally disagree. Think of it this way: a sport is a genre, not a game. The people who were playing quake are now playing CS:S. Starcraft has had a lot of staying power...but when they makre another RTS that good, then that is where the players will move. Sports evolve as well. Hockey has changed dramatically in the past few years. 2-line passes, goalies only able to play a puck in limited areas behind the net, shoot out..all to give the game more of an offensive edge. Same thing in other pro sport

Anyone can play football too, but that doesn't make them the best at it.

I'm going to make a wild guess that the difference between an enthusiastic but amateur football player and a professional football player is far greater than the difference between a hardcore gamer and a professional gamer. Gaming is too easy.

And don't you think playing a game or for that matter anything for 12 hours straight is a rather rigorous training in it self? So they get to drink soda while they play/train so what? They are stil

Keep in mind that most people in Korea are black belts (at least) in Tae Kwon Do. The must like games too. I for one am glad to see them expand into more forms of entertainment and other areas of social activity.
Also, I for one welcome my Martial Arts Master Video Game Playing Overlords.

I never claimed that you can suddenly become the best CS:S player ever by playing every now and then, nor did I claim that I'm the best CS:S player, nor did I claim that every hardcore gamer is equally good at CS:S.

Video gaming is just too easy. I know because I've played since I was six years old or something. There isn't enough effort involved, so I can't take video gaming as seriously as real sports.

I never claimed that you can suddenly become the best CS:S player ever by playing every now and then, nor did I claim that I'm the best CS:S player, nor did I claim that every hardcore gamer is equally good at CS:S.

Video gaming is just too easy. I know because I've played since I was six years old or something. There isn't enough effort involved, so I can't take video gaming as seriously as real sports.

While I agree with you for the most part I think you are mistaking effort with physical activity i

Video gaming is just too easy. I know because I've played since I was six years old or something

Perhaps that's the reason you think it's too easy. I've been playing since I was four or five, so I have no trouble at all picking up a new game, but someone like my cousin Sarah who has very little video game experience just doesn't do very well. My mother's surprisingly good at Tetris and other puzzle games, since she's played them a lot, but she's terrible at Mario Kart and any boss fights in Zelda games. My

I've been gaming since I was a little kid, too. I frequently participate in local game tournaments, especially Super Smash Bros. I practice several hours a week, and I run through the single player modes on very hard like it's nothing, but I'm still pretty much shit at the tournaments. I will never take first place, no matter how much I practice. And you know what? The people who do take first place don't have shit on the professional players who place in the national and international tournaments, the

As opposed to worshipping more traditional athletes elsewhere in the world? We put on pedestals people who are basically playing kids games. Take you pick, hockey, baseball, tennis, whatever. These people while talented contribute exactly the same thing to society as a bunch of Starcraft players.
The Koreans appear to have found a new form of status to worship. We are not better, they have just picked a more advanced form of it.

Not the fact that gaming is popular is South Korea, but rather the fact that the submitter describes it as forward thinking. I love Nethack and Q3A as much as the next guy, but there are some things playing a real sport will do that videogames won't.*Get you in shape*Teach you teamwork*Teach you leadership*Teach you commitment*Get you laid

Make fun of athletes all you want, but the fact is that varsity collegiate athletes make more money than non-athletes after they graduate college. Competing and being part

I'm a real athlete too, infact I just came from a fencing tornament today, and I find your broad insulting respons rather offensive my self.
Your "get laid" remark aside (lets be honest thats just trolling) computer games can teach all of the things you just mentioned except get into shape because well that's just the nature of the game, pun intended I guess. For example I used to play competitivly in Tribes 2. We had a whole team, 16+ members, we had weekly practices, and we had a leader. Gee that sounds

My experience of gaming is that it actually teaches you a huge amount about teamwork and leadership. Some of the better FPS Clans rely on both of those extensively in fact - well-drilled clan fireteams operates in very similar fashion to a military (or at least professional paintball) platoon (eg. fire-and-movement principle, etc.). And if you'd ever tried running a clan, well you'd know all about the leadership it demands.Get in shape however - very true, gaming hinders your fitness, bigtime. Commitment? W

You know, I understand where you are going, but you are wrong on some of those bullet points.

1. Shape

True. Sitting on your ass, doesn't get you in shape. Unless you count "large behind" as a shape.;-)

2. Teamwork

Actually, that depends. For a 1on1 FPS game like Quake (insert number here) or a RTS game like Starcraft, that might be true. For a team-oriented gamer like Counter-Strike that is not true, quite the opposite. 5 players HAVE to work together, otherwise they will get raped by the other team. Most of these teams practice 6-8 hours a day, 4-5 days a week. They are often spread out over vast distances, and only communicates thru a VoIP program (like Ventrilo). Take my word for it, that teaches them a lot of teamwork. If anyone fucks up while they're playing, they all get punished (by losing the round or the match). They can't see eachothers facial expressions or bodylanguage, so it can be really hard to understand humour and passing remarks. They learn teamwork - and under hard conditions.

3. Leadership

Yeah, I guess you have a point there. Some of these guys learn to motivate and give commands, but thats usually 1 out of 5 players on a team. He usually gets quite good at it tho.

4. 6-8 hours a day. 4-5 days a week. Playing online. From remote locations. Thats commitment. It might not be the same kind of commitment you see in the gym or on the track, but its commitment.

5. Get laid

You would be REALLY amazed by the gaming culture these guys live in. I was something of a celebrity myself in my local gaming community a few years back, a manager of the top team in that country, and the editor-in-chief of the biggest community site for these players. I saw more action doing that, than I did while I was DJ'ing popular nightclubs back when I was fresh out of school. Every culture has their groupies, this is no exception. While you probably couldn't pick up women at a bar by boasting about your gamign skills, you can definitely pick them up from within the community just by being celeb-like. Nothing to be proud of, just saying it happened. And as most slashdotters would probably agree, once we can approach women by text, we have fairly good chances of coming of as intelligent funny people. Simply a lot easier steer conversations in the right directions, and you dont have to worry too much about being shy (or her being shy). These people are the last frontier of IRC networks, and the girls/groupies/female gamers are there as well.

Except for point A certain games actually can do the other points (the last however mostly in other countries, at least since arcades died here in the US). So I don't see the complaint your making as very valid...Teamwork, leadership, and commitment: I used to be part of a team that played CS and these were all big points for everyone in that team... Why? Because we played in a league and wanted to prove we were as good if not better than others. If you don't work together you die (there are some rare excep

Sorry,
I have gamed at what passes for national level in my country, (misreably as it is) and I have learnt so much about teamwork, leadership, focus, strategy, dedication, that I had to respond.
Nethack,morrowind,god of war - yes these games probably don't teach any of those things. But if you have ever tried, or even watched competition level gamers, you would never type those sentences.
Teamwork, Leadership (cannot overemphasize that), strategy, dedication, practice for nearly 10 hours a day, these are

Well lets see, gaming does teach you...
Teamwork... especially since the more popular ones are multi-player
Leadership... see above comment
Commitment... it is very hard to get to the level of professional gamers
Get you laid... did you actually read TFA?

Basically you need to understand that America != Korea

In fact Professional Gaming is identical to our Western Gaming in that it becomes more about reflex and stamina, the only other differences are in culture however if you compare the Korean Pro Gaming

Look at what the ancients called "Athletics": the Olympics - physical strength and endurance. The athletes bodies' were strong, conditioned, and healthy. You can't be an athlete and be unhealthy. Fat, sedentary, heart disease, etc. are not qualities of an athlete. Look at a basketball, hockey, soccer, or football player (other than the linemen). You know those are athletes and their bodies are conditioned. Compare that to these "athletes" who

If we look at baseball for example, it's a timeless sport. People did, do, and will continue to play the game. It's a part of our culture, the great american past time. It's going to be with us for a long time. But what about Starcraft? Can it last 100 years like baseball? Or will the crowd move on to the newest RTS or Starcraft 2, perhaps leaving these players out in the cold when their skills don't carry over? There will always be a great deal of people who would go to a baseball game. In 15 years, will there even be anybody still interested in Starcraft?

I think it's great that they are able to achieve fame, but they should enjoy it while it lasts, for they will never be as remembered as baseball legends, like Babe Ruth or Jackie Robinson.

I'd argue that a video game itself does not equal a 'sport' like in real life, but instead a category does (more so if you think of indivual titles being like game rules for a certain era, baseball doens't have the same rules today as it did 100 years ago after all)... So the question should be: Will RTS's be popular in 100 years? & I think the answer will be: As much as baseball is still popular today it will be.Baseball (at least in the US) is on a fairly steady decline... The last decade has seen ma

The phrase is "pass time", but perhaps "past time" is more appropriate in context. As in, right around the third or fourth inning, "isn't is past time for this monotonous, appealing more from a social aspect than one of entertainment, only surpassed by golf's slow pace game to be over?"

Besides, most kids would tell you that Babe Ruth is a candy bar and Jackie Robinson was some lady - probably a track and field athlete.

It's certainly a different "world" in Korea. I'd just like to interject that the video game "stars" over there do keep in physical shape. They train extensively not only on the keyboard, but also go through physical training. In team games, the top Korean teams train in light calisthenics and do extensive team drills both in-game and in sports. The feeling is that the mind and the body must be in top shape in order to perform professionally at the highest levels. Couch potatoes need not apply.

"Idol" obsession is nothing new in that part of the world. When I lived there it was nutty the people and things that would suddenly become popular, but its really fleeting...think Andy Warhol's definition and halve that. If someone made a tv show about accountants you can be sure that the day after the first show there would be a fan club. Professional gaming is gaining popularity but you can bet that the worlds best frisbee golfer will make the cover of sports Illustrated before some deathmatch winner

If South Korea is a forward thinking nation for treating these gamers the way they do, I'll stick to my backward thinking ways, thank you very much.

People worship so called "stars" for the stupidest reasons. You might be better at playing Starcraft, running with a football, or acting in a movie, but that doesn't make you a better person. Got a talent? Good for you. Doesn't mean I have to listen to you. Your opinion is worth no more than anyone elses.

There are many games that improve your teamwork and leadership skills. Just like there are many solo sports which don't enhance those skills. I guess the article used "forward thinking" as a synonym of open mindness.

It really does. More people in korea play video games than play soccer. These "rockstar" gamers were ordinary people that had a talent. I can't go play football with Peyton Manning, and if I did, I would get creamed. I CAN go play quake with these guys, and be (a little bit) competitive. I can talk to them online, I can make friends with them online. This makes more sense than worshipping a soccer player that doesn't realize (or care that) you exist.

I don't think most gamers could play these guys and be even the slightest bit competitive. In the end it likely wouldn't be all that different than trying to play football with a professional footballer.

Furthermore, I don't think these guys care in the least bit to talk to the average guy. Doubtless, there are exceptions but the celebrity mentality inevitably changes everything.

I will not even try to google for Derek Jeters and Peyton Mannings. I have no idea who they are and I do not wish to know.But I can say with confidence that most people in the US (and South Korea) will know nothing about Andy Flintoff, Jonah Lomu, Manuel Laureano Rodríguez Sánchez.

Each country have different sets of sporting heroes, I don't see why the activities that capture the imagination of people in one place should be the same in other places.

It is required that while I play CS my family stands behind me in a hightened state of anticipation, when i win a round they all must cheer.. when i do happen to be shot and die and must wait for the next round, my wife will rub my shoulders and coo praise and "reasons" for my loss (they are definitely cheating, your hit didn't register, stupid server, etc) while my children refill my glass of redbull, wipe down my keyboard and or mouse from sweaty palms and re-arrange my chair height, fluff my seat cushion