neville harp wrote:I've only watched half of the first episode (of series 3). I was mesmerised but is it worth ploughing through the rest?

Absolutely. If you're a fan of David Lynch's short films, Lost Highway, Fire Walk With Me, and Mulholland Drive, then you should plough through the remaining 17 and a half parts. I'm in the "The Return is better than the original" camp of Twin Peaks fandom.

neville harp wrote:. I'm in the "The Return is better than the original" camp of Twin Peaks fandom.

I don't think I got even a tenth of the enjoyment from it that I got from the original. Some brilliant ideas, particularly in episode 8, but it was so scrappy and tonally so flat. The original TP was more imaginative, warmer, much more humorous and had far better characterisation.

G are you messing around with the thread again? The site just ate my post!

What I was going to say was:

It seemed pretty clear to me that Coop and Laura/Carrie were now in a different timeline where she never died. The flashbacks to Pete and the gang at the mill with no body on the shore in episode 17 suggested this.There are still a lot of questions though and I found it frustrating that Lynch left so much hanging. Why introduce Judy only to not really explore the concept? What was going on with Sarah? And Audrey? If Laura wasn't killed, why is she now a completely different person with no memory of Laura or the town of Twin Peaks?I often feel like part of the reason he leaves so many of these things open-ended is that he doesn't really know how to follow things through to their conclusions. The endings we did get - Bad Coop, BOB, Richard - were disappointingly flat or silly. And here's the thing: if Coop and Laura are now in a different timeline where Laura died, then none of what we've spent three series watching and thinking about actually happened. Which feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth really.

It's been a magical, wonderful, intense and often boring and frustrating ride and I'm sad it's over. In a sense the main plotlines seem resolved and the final scenes did resonate with the series' themes of future and past, not getting what you want etc, but I find it hard to be satisfied when he refuses to really commit to any of his stories in this way.

Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.

PENK wrote:And here's the thing: if Coop and Laura are now in a different timeline where Laura died, then none of what we've spent three series watching and thinking about actually happened. Which feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth really.

.

Laura vanishing from Twin Peaks on the night she was supposed to die changes some things but not everything. People will still have to deal with her disappearance. They will still grieve and mourn. The town will still be scarred. Donna and James will still probably hook up. Ben will still be after the mill. Big Ed will still be pining after Norma and so on. Yes Audrey will not meet Coop but then she won't be raped by Evil Coop either. Maddy probably won't die either. It changes some things but the world of Twin peaks we visited 25+ years ago still was. It will just be different in some ways but the same in others.

When the scene first happened I thought "shit, this is going to cancel everything out" but of course the fact that Laura doesn't go Home but instead gets put in a different place means that it doesn't.

Minnie the Minx wrote:

Copehead wrote:Just average, innocent people who have moved on to land stolen from Palestinian families.

neville harp wrote:. I'm in the "The Return is better than the original" camp of Twin Peaks fandom.

I don't think I got even a tenth of the enjoyment from it that I got from the original. Some brilliant ideas, particularly in episode 8, but it was so scrappy and tonally so flat. The original TP was more imaginative, warmer, much more humorous and had far better characterisation.

I can understand why people wouldn't enjoy it as much as the original, because it all comes down to personal preference. At least you felt positively about Part 8, which I found to be the greatest episode in the series. However, I disagree with you in calling the series 'tonally flat.' It certainly has a different tone than the original, but nothing I would consider flat at all. On the contrary, The Return operates more on a cryptic, mysterious, haunting, and mystical level rather than the warm, charming, and often whimsical atmosphere of the original. This is not say I dislike the original now, because I still find it among the greatest television ever produced. I just happen to prefer the new one.

PENK wrote:And here's the thing: if Coop and Laura are now in a different timeline where Laura died, then none of what we've spent three series watching and thinking about actually happened. Which feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth really.

.

Laura vanishing from Twin Peaks on the night she was supposed to die changes some things but not everything. People will still have to deal with her disappearance. They will still grieve and mourn. The town will still be scarred. Donna and James will still probably hook up. Ben will still be after the mill. Big Ed will still be pining after Norma and so on. Yes Audrey will not meet Coop but then she won't be raped by Evil Coop either. Maddy probably won't die either. It changes some things but the world of Twin peaks we visited 25+ years ago still was. It will just be different in some ways but the same in others.

When the scene first happened I thought "shit, this is going to cancel everything out" but of course the fact that Laura doesn't go Home but instead gets put in a different place means that it doesn't.

All true but none of them will have been affected by the disappearance the same way they were by her actual death, and being found. None of them will have had their lives touched by Coop and in particular the entire third series becomes a bit of a shaggy dog tale.

I get what he was trying to say and I admire the way there are so many small touches and details that add to the message (hell, even the title of the series is a big clue!). I just can't avoid feeling like the conclusion was a big middle finger to the fans: a way of saying that none of this really matters, more fool us for being so invested in these characters and their lives. Essentially he's made this epic, fascinating 18-hour film just as a convoluted way of saying "no you can't have any more".

I loved the series, I thought there was much about it that was great, I just think there were some missteps and that the destination didn't quite justify the journey.

Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.

PENK wrote:And here's the thing: if Coop and Laura are now in a different timeline where Laura died, then none of what we've spent three series watching and thinking about actually happened. Which feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth really.

.

Laura vanishing from Twin Peaks on the night she was supposed to die changes some things but not everything. People will still have to deal with her disappearance. They will still grieve and mourn. The town will still be scarred. Donna and James will still probably hook up. Ben will still be after the mill. Big Ed will still be pining after Norma and so on. Yes Audrey will not meet Coop but then she won't be raped by Evil Coop either. Maddy probably won't die either. It changes some things but the world of Twin peaks we visited 25+ years ago still was. It will just be different in some ways but the same in others.

When the scene first happened I thought "shit, this is going to cancel everything out" but of course the fact that Laura doesn't go Home but instead gets put in a different place means that it doesn't.

All true but none of them will have been affected by the disappearance the same way they were by her actual death, and being found. None of them will have had their lives touched by Coop and in particular the entire third series becomes a bit of a shaggy dog tale.

I get what he was trying to say and I admire the way there are so many small touches and details that add to the message (hell, even the title of the series is a big clue!). I just can't avoid feeling like the conclusion was a big middle finger to the fans: a way of saying that none of this really matters, more fool us for being so invested in these characters and their lives. Essentially he's made this epic, fascinating 18-hour film just as a convoluted way of saying "no you can't have any more".

I loved the series, I thought there was much about it that was great, I just think there were some missteps and that the destination didn't quite justify the journey.

I feel you. I felt totally bummed out by the ending initially and still do to a degree. I get why fans might feel like it's a fuck you. I think the ending, as brutal and anti-climatic as it felt at the time is particularly haunting and powerful though. Just not in the way I would like but, hey, you know. I don't feel that this has negated the original show either but I can understand why some might feel that.

Minnie the Minx wrote:

Copehead wrote:Just average, innocent people who have moved on to land stolen from Palestinian families.

Goat Boy wrote:I feel you. I felt totally bummed out by the ending initially and still do to a degree. I get why fans might feel like it's a fuck you. I think the ending, as brutal and anti-climatic as it felt at the time is particularly haunting and powerful though. Just not in the way I would like but, hey, you know. I don't feel that this has negated the original show either but I can understand why some might feel that.

I thought that the very final scene was incredible, actually.

The last episode did sum up the series, with mystery and darkness (Coop and Diane's creepy motel sex), long boring stretches (driving and driving and driving), red herrings (are they being followed?) and terrifying beauty (the ending).

It was just that, well, as nice as the "Coop and Laura are now in this alternate reality created by his saving her in the first place" resolution is, there are still some inconsistencies, unanswered questions and loose threads. And though we can never get back what was lost, surely getting some kind of real closure is not too much to ask?

Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.