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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Unwrapped wrote:

That assumes that all 150 members (which one might argue are only major members, and that there are others like Bajor that have a more probationary/potential status) have equal resources, and I'm not sure that would be the case. Nor am I sure they'd all have massive facilities even if they had resource equality as a benefit of membership. Different regions are going to have different specialties, and it wouldn't make as much sense outside a wartime setting for all of them to producing the same amount unless it was a necessity.

But at the same time, all 150 species that became part of the Federation have been members for years already (we are not counting prospective members like the Bajorans - who never did join during the course of DS9 as a show).

Those species would probably have well developed technological capabilities (in terms of space flight) and would have to be self-sustaining by the time they joined the Federation (meaning that providing for their own population would have to be a non-issue and other things such as space exploration and the likes would be done via creation of superior synthetic materials which can be made in abundance while using the least amount of energy and resources at the same time - heck, WE can do this, but don't because of the confines of the socio-economic system we live in).
For that matter, I doubt that SF would confine construction of its ships and structures to the SOL system (even though realistically, you could put millions of shipyards and space stations in just 1 system and you'd still have enormous/vast amounts of space to spare to make trillions more).

No, replicators use transporter technology to alter the form of matter. They don't simply create matter out of energy. That was one of the reasons the TNG TM talked about the idea of huge fleet scaled replicators not being practical. They would need templates to provide the matter and the energy involved presumably wouldn't be a fair trade compared to just replicating a meal. They're also stated to be unable to create substances like gold or dilithium, because those substances have very complex templates. Same reason they can't create living beings, although the aliens in "Allegiance" had replication technology that bypassed this problem.

Except that on-screen evidence states in TNG and Voyager that replicators convert energy into matter.
It was also said that the replicators are an outgrowth of transporter technology... but that doesn't mean it will work EXACTLY the same.
For actual creation of matter, replicators use plasma that powers the ship and convert it into matter (probably manipulating the particles of the plasma on a sub-atomic level).
Transporters convert matter into energy on one location then transfer that energy to another location and convert it into matter.
Replicators are power suckers (and for good reason).
Never was it mentioned that replicators require raw matter to create objects... it was stated they need energy.

Picard also mentioned to Moriarty in one of the episodes in TNG how Humanity discovered that energy and matter are interchangeable.

I don't really care about whats written on memory Alpha because canonical evidence takes priority, and in this instance, it doesn't support the premise that replicators need matter to create matter.
Or which part of 'Replicators convert energy into matter' don't you understand?

We know the very same process occurs in Supernova's in real life (conversion of energy into matter).
The Federation (if anything) is basing their technology on how nature works (and we are beginning to do so as well), and they are supposed to be hundreds of years more advanced than us (even though in some areas they appear to be sorely lacking - but that basically comes down to writers being uninformed and dumbing things down).

__________________
We are who we choose to be but also have predefined aspects of our personalities we are born with, and make art that defines us.

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Deks wrote:

Unwrapped wrote:

That assumes that all 150 members (which one might argue are only major members, and that there are others like Bajor that have a more probationary/potential status) have equal resources, and I'm not sure that would be the case. Nor am I sure they'd all have massive facilities even if they had resource equality as a benefit of membership. Different regions are going to have different specialties, and it wouldn't make as much sense outside a wartime setting for all of them to producing the same amount unless it was a necessity.

But at the same time, all 150 species that became part of the Federation have been members for years already (we are not counting prospective members like the Bajorans - who never did join during the course of DS9 as a show).

Those species would probably have well developed technological capabilities (in terms of space flight) and would have to be self-sustaining by the time they joined the Federation (meaning that providing for their own population would have to be a non-issue and other things such as space exploration and the likes would be done via creation of superior synthetic materials which can be made in abundance while using the least amount of energy and resources at the same time - heck, WE can do this, but don't because of the confines of the socio-economic system we live in).
For that matter, I doubt that SF would confine construction of its ships and structures to the SOL system (even though realistically, you could put millions of shipyards and space stations in just 1 system and you'd still have enormous/vast amounts of space to spare to make trillions more).

No, replicators use transporter technology to alter the form of matter. They don't simply create matter out of energy. That was one of the reasons the TNG TM talked about the idea of huge fleet scaled replicators not being practical. They would need templates to provide the matter and the energy involved presumably wouldn't be a fair trade compared to just replicating a meal. They're also stated to be unable to create substances like gold or dilithium, because those substances have very complex templates. Same reason they can't create living beings, although the aliens in "Allegiance" had replication technology that bypassed this problem.

Except that on-screen evidence states in TNG and Voyager that replicators convert energy into matter.
It was also said that the replicators are an outgrowth of transporter technology... but that doesn't mean it will work EXACTLY the same.
For actual creation of matter, replicators use plasma that powers the ship and convert it into matter (probably manipulating the particles of the plasma on a sub-atomic level).
Transporters convert matter into energy on one location then transfer that energy to another location and convert it into matter.
Replicators are power suckers (and for good reason).
Never was it mentioned that replicators require raw matter to create objects... it was stated they need energy.

Picard also mentioned to Moriarty in one of the episodes in TNG how Humanity discovered that energy and matter are interchangeable.

I don't really care about whats written on memory Alpha because canonical evidence takes priority, and in this instance, it doesn't support the premise that replicators need matter to create matter.
Or which part of 'Replicators convert energy into matter' don't you understand?

We know the very same process occurs in Supernova's in real life (conversion of energy into matter).
The Federation (if anything) is basing their technology on how nature works (and we are beginning to do so as well), and they are supposed to be hundreds of years more advanced than us (even though in some areas they appear to be sorely lacking - but that basically comes down to writers being uninformed and dumbing things down).

I generally agree with your interpretation of how Replicators can convert pure energy into matter. In the VOY episode "The Void", Voyager got a tech upgrade for the energy efficiency of their replicators from an allied member. Now they can replicate stuff at a significantly less energy cost (The Federation tech folks must've been happy when they discovered that piece of tech back home once Voyager returned given the replicator economy). Note they mention that the replicator uses energy, not just matter converted from one form from another.

I'm sure the replicator can convert matter from one form to another, there are many guides in ST Tech Manuals that mention matter tanks for replicators, however should the need arise, they can convert energy into matter. I guess by the time of VOY, energy is so abundant, that carrying massive amounts of matter tanks isn't necessary when they can store / generate so much power.

If you look at things from a logical perspective with Replicator 'Energy to Matter' vs. 'Matter to Matter' conversion, it should probably be cheaper in total energy cost to convert an existing form of matter like Carbon, add in the appropriate amount of electrons / protons / neutrons / etc to turn 1 atom of Carbon into 1 atom of Iron then to start from scratch and have to form each Iron Atom out of pure energy.

So there is value to having matter tanks, but not necessarily for basic atoms, but for probably some of the harder to produce materials like Duranium which is probably a very complicated alloy of some sort from my understanding. You don't need alot of matter tanks, but just enough to make it cheaper on energy costs to make more complicated matter.

Basically there is a valid argument for both methods of replication based on efficiency. Since Energy / Matter is the two most important resources within the UFP, I would assume that they would do everything in their power to make replicators as energy efficient as possible and try to run more traditional forms of material fabrication if it made energy / resource sense to do so.

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

I would agree that replicators might have the ability of manipulating matter from one state into another, but we know their basic operation is: Conversion of energy to matter (not the other way around) - at least when it comes to matter replication/creation.
They do have recycling capability which effectively converts matter into energy (back into the EPS power grid - lowered amount of course since the meal is gone, but the utensils, plates and glass will be converted into same energy that went out most likely) - though this method could be used by for example to simply 'recycle' metals and alloys found in asteroids or void solar systems that would effectively yield high energy reserves.
We hadn't seen replicators manipulate the structure of an existing object and turn it into another object because the crews of any Federation ship would sooner recycle the objects in question into energy so they could replicate something of use later when the actual need arises (this would be a sensible approach).

If you noticed, in early seasons of Voyager, Replicators were used sparingly because they were an energy intensive system and the ship experienced power issues ever since it was pulled into the DQ (which probably damaged the power systems to an extent that lowered overall power reserves and in turn instilled limitations on how much replicators can be used - at least until Voyager managed to find areas of space they could use for antimatter creation - such as omicron particles from 'the Cloud' - never used but perhaps other sources were found aside from making trade with races).

But, I really don't see why any Federation ship equipped with replicators simply couldn't park near a Star, and use the solar power for matter replication (instead of ships energy).
I would agree it would take some fiddling with the power systems to accept solar power, but ultimately, the Federation is able to manipulate energy and convert it from one state into another (using plasma manifolds which we've seen), meaning that a Star could relatively easily be used as an external power supply for replicators on ships to stock up on necessary materials, create vast amounts of hardware, spare parts, new torpedoes [minus the anti-matter - unless they could create some sort of mini facility on board for its creation] self-sustaining systems, etc.

__________________
We are who we choose to be but also have predefined aspects of our personalities we are born with, and make art that defines us.

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Deks wrote:

I would agree that replicators might have the ability of manipulating matter from one state into another, but we know their basic operation is: Conversion of energy to matter (not the other way around) - at least when it comes to matter replication/creation.
They do have recycling capability which effectively converts matter into energy (back into the EPS power grid - lowered amount of course since the meal is gone, but the utensils, plates and glass will be converted into same energy that went out most likely) - though this method could be used by for example to simply 'recycle' metals and alloys found in asteroids or void solar systems that would effectively yield high energy reserves.
We hadn't seen replicators manipulate the structure of an existing object and turn it into another object because the crews of any Federation ship would sooner recycle the objects in question into energy so they could replicate something of use later when the actual need arises (this would be a sensible approach).

If you noticed, in early seasons of Voyager, Replicators were used sparingly because they were an energy intensive system and the ship experienced power issues ever since it was pulled into the DQ (which probably damaged the power systems to an extent that lowered overall power reserves and in turn instilled limitations on how much replicators can be used - at least until Voyager managed to find areas of space they could use for antimatter creation - such as omicron particles from 'the Cloud' - never used but perhaps other sources were found aside from making trade with races).

But, I really don't see why any Federation ship equipped with replicators simply couldn't park near a Star, and use the solar power for matter replication (instead of ships energy).
I would agree it would take some fiddling with the power systems to accept solar power, but ultimately, the Federation is able to manipulate energy and convert it from one state into another (using plasma manifolds which we've seen), meaning that a Star could relatively easily be used as an external power supply for replicators on ships to stock up on necessary materials, create vast amounts of hardware, spare parts, new torpedoes [minus the anti-matter - unless they could create some sort of mini facility on board for its creation] self-sustaining systems, etc.

I totally agree, they should be using local Stars as free power when they can. Why not since it's free, if they don't convert the sunlight and any other form of energy emission into useable power, it's wasted by beaming into space. So might as well.

As far as converting things back into energy, that is one option, but it'd probably be cheaper energy wise to shove the recycled items into a matter tank and just reassemble it into something useful later than have to make a brand new item from energy.

Converting matter back to energy is probably not 100% efficient, so there will be some loss to converting back, it's probably not that bad, but still, you'd want to minimize loss of energy through the system.

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

so... if it that simple and cheap, why need freighters? Because that makes every solar systems become self sufficient. Replicator could render every economy rules that we know now useless. Plus, the non currency life in Federation makes Merchant obsoletes. So why we still have the freighter captain Yates in DS9? Why they still transporting goods from one place to another? Because it is no longer necessary, if Replicator is indeed the machine of god. They don't need freighters, Merchants, distributors, etc anymore. Everyone could make their own item with the "replicator". and everyone could take the energy from their own solar system.

So... unless replicator is not that powerful just like you state, replicator is just a bad idea that come from bad writing of those lazy writers.

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Brainsucker wrote:

so... if it that simple and cheap, why need freighters? Because that makes every solar systems become self sufficient. Replicator could render every economy rules that we know now useless. Plus, the non currency life in Federation makes Merchant obsoletes. So why we still have the freighter captain Yates in DS9? Why they still transporting goods from one place to another? Because it is no longer necessary, if Replicator is indeed the machine of god. They don't need freighters, Merchants, distributors, etc anymore. Everyone could make their own item with the "replicator". and everyone could take the energy from their own solar system.

So... unless replicator is not that powerful just like you state, replicator is just a bad idea that come from bad writing of those lazy writers.

So even in a replicator society, there will be a need for freightors, just what cargo goes in the freightors will be a little different.

Here is a list of some potential cargo:
1) Food Items:
- Naturally pre made food or basic food items ready to be cooked with for those on the frontier where replicators are not ready / installed.
- Pre-replicated food for helping hungry people

What it has instead is minuscule space scooters capable of carrying less cargo that the classic coastal cargo ships of the 20th century. In order to supply even an ordinary city with something that would make a difference, you'd need thousands of those ships, each doing daily trips. In order to keep a planet supplied with raw materials or food, you'd need hundreds of millions. Yet an effective siege involves only stopping a handful of ships.

If planets weren't capable of surviving indefinitely on their own, the Star Trek universe would need to feature freighters of appreciable size - say, boxes a few hundred kilometers on the side. Not only are such things never seen or spoken of, but our heroes seem to treat space structures of such a scale as abnormal.

Essentially, the self-sustainability of Star Trek planets is confirmed. Only very special cases, such as the 8,000-people Tarsus colony in the "Conscience of the King" backstory, depend on external supply. Whatever freight traffic there is to other places, it's apparently on items of luxury or sentimental value, or on extremely small quantities of items or substances that are difficult to replicate (that is, apparently just a few barrels of the stuff per year).

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Timo wrote:

Only very special cases, such as the 8,000-people Tarsus colony in the "Conscience of the King" backstory, depend on external supply.

Tarsus Four had it's own food attacked by an exotic fungus, the majority of the food was destroyed. That's why they needed ships to bring in food.

Deks wrote:

For actual creation of matter, replicators use plasma that powers the ship and convert it into matter

The plasma in the warp core is already matter, it doesn't have to be converted into it.

The warp core is filled with hot ionized hydrogen gas (deuterium plasma). It would take about 18,000 cubic meter of hydrogen gas will give you 1 liter of water.

You should drink at least 2 liters of fluids a day, more is better. The crew of the Enterprise Dee would consume over 2 metric tonnes of drinking fluids per day. That's 36,684,000 cubic meters of warp plasma being used daily just to produce water.

We know the very same process occurs in Supernova's in real life (conversion of energy into matter).

If you are referring to nucleosynthesis, you have it all wrong. Nucleosynthesis in no way converts energy into mater, but instead it is a process by which heavier chemical elements are created using hydrogen and other previously synthesized elements. Energy is used in the process, but is not converted into matter.

The Federation (if anything) is basing their technology on how nature works

And what you're describing doesn't work. Neither through "creating" matter out of energy, or by siphoning off plasma from the warp core to use in the replicator.

The technical advisers on the show produced a technical manual (nope, not canon), the replicator is described as employing base stock materials, which are altered by the replicator into the desired product. These base materials have to be periodical restocked owing to a recycle efficiency of 82%.

... but that basically comes down to writers being uninformed and dumbing things down.

Really? Sound like they had it right.

They do have recycling capability which effectively converts matter into energy

Okay, what kind of energy then? By what you've posted, obviously not energy in a physical form. So it isn't just sitting in the EPS, because electro-plasma is a form of matter. What kind of "energy" did you have in mind?

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Brainsucker wrote:

So basically the war like Dominion War won't effect any major power economy in the galaxy. Both Dominion and Federation can war forever if there is no worm hole that limit their access?

Forever? No. Remember, the Dominion (mostly the Cardassians in the AQ, since there was virtually no supplyline from the GQ after the blockade of the wormhole), had some serious supply constraints. Cardassia did not have wide-spread replicator access to begin with, and at one point they were so resource strapped that they tried to trick the Federation into ceding a planet to them that they could bio-engineer new supplies of Ketrecel White from because they had no factories to produce it in.

In the "colonies", where replicators were less common and power systems less developed, I'm sure there were widespread economic dislocations and problems due to the war.

The "core worlds", however, are a different story altogether. With every household potentially a "mini factory" if their replicator were provided with the raw materials and power needed, you have production networks so distributed that it would be impossible short of total planetary annihilation to shut them down completely. And the total potential output of just ONE planet is staggering to consider.

Let us take just one item, for example a hand phaser. Replicating an item that size takes at most 5-6 seconds.

Now, let us take a SMALL settlement on a core world with, say, 5000 households. Assuming that single settlement devoted just ONE replication session to making phasers, you would have a rate of production of 5000 phasers a day.

Let us assume that the population of a core world is 3 billion people with an average household size of 4 people. That is 750 million households, or 150,000 times the size of our example community.

So if the entire planetary population did just ONE replication cycle a day for hand phasers, that would be 750 million hand phasers produced in just one day by that one planet.

That's not counting the output of small public replicators (as in a replimat such as the one on DS9), or big industrial replicators that might be able to turn out hand phasers by the freight-car load.

The industrial capacity of the Federation on a war-footing is beyond scary. The problem seems to be extremely large and complex objects like starships, but even then the Federation appeared to have plenty, being able to field many 1000s even after the crushing losses of the first year of the war.

Indeed, the real problem for the Federation would have been manpower, as Senator Vreenak noted in "In The Pale Moonlight". The Federation could replace the ships and the material, but not the trained crews to operate them.

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

E-DUB wrote:

I don't know if any of you are following the lit-verse, but there was recently an "all-out" confrontation between the Feds and the Borg, with much of the attendent issues you talk about, economic problems, refugees, etc.

The difference being that the Borg were orders of magnitude more destructive than the Dominion ever even thought about being.

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Deks wrote:

Except that on-screen evidence states in TNG and Voyager that replicators convert energy into matter.

It was also said that the replicators are an outgrowth of transporter technology... but that doesn't mean it will work EXACTLY the same.

For actual creation of matter, replicators use plasma that powers the ship and convert it into matter (probably manipulating the particles of the plasma on a sub-atomic level).

Uh, no...

Transporters convert matter into energy on one location then transfer that energy to another location and convert it into matter.

And again, no. Transporters break down matter, move it to the target, then reassemble it. This is referred to as the "matter stream", as in this example from the Voyager episode "Tuvix":

TUVIX: Actually Captain, when you think about it, Neelix and Tuvok were broken down to a microcellular level during transport. DNA, protein, all in a state of molecular flux.

KIM: And if the enzymes that cause symbiogenesis interacted with their DNA while they were in the matter stream, it might have caused their patterns to merge.

or this from TNG's "Relics"

SCOTT: Aye, lad. Franklin. We went in together. Something's wrong. One of the inducers has failed. Boost the gain on the matter stream. Come on, Franklin. I know you're still in there. It's no use. His pattern's degraded fifty three percent. He's gone.

and "Realm of Fear" (the most extensive explanation of how transporters work Trek has ever given us)

BARCLAY: When I was returning to the Enterprise I could've sworn I saw something in the matter stream.
LAFORGE: Something?
BARCLAY: There was phased matter all around. At first I thought it was some kind of energy discharge, but then it flew toward me and it touched my arm. How could something be in there? Molecules flying apart, half phased? I mean, it's impossible, isn't it?

and

LAFORGE: Reg, there's a lot of energy floating around in the beam. Maybe you saw a surge in the matter stream.

and

BARCLAY: A fluctuation occurred while I was inside the matter stream?

and

DATA: Normal spatial relationships are often distorted within the matter stream. Your perceptions may have been exaggerated.

and

DATA: The microbes exist simultaneously as both matter and energy. The biofilter cannot distinguish them from the matter stream.
LAFORGE: Right, but if we held Barclay suspended in mid-transport at the point where matter starts to lose molecular cohesion.

and

BARCLAY: But if I'm in the matter stream too long.
DATA: Your pattern would degrade to the point where your signal would be permanently lost.

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Random hipshot #1:

Tarsus Four had it's own food attacked by an exotic fungus, the majority of the food was destroyed. That's why they needed ships to bring in food.

It must have been more severe than that. If Tarsus IV were a habitable planet with arable land, then the survival of 8,000 people would not have been in the slightest jeopardy even with total loss of stored food. The people could have been dispersed to the landscape where edibles would have been found in abundance.

This can't have been the case for two reasons. One, this "Kodos" character found followers to his claim that 4,000 people would have to be killed so that the remaining 4,000 would not starve; such a claim would alienate any followers if there was a planet full of food around the colony, but not if there indeed was "virtually no food" as stated - a situation specifically calling for a barren world. Two, relief was said to have arrived, but too late to prevent the executions; had the colony made an emergency call for unscheduled food shipments, there would have been hope of them arriving in time, and Kodos would not have found followers. But if calling for help were impossible, and this gave Kodos the support he needed, then arrival of relief dictates regular, scheduled food shipments.

Random hipshot #2:

So sorry, no "energy to matter" for you...

While the "normal" mode of transporting is rather carefully described as moving the original matter from A to B, simply in a more moveable, "phased" form, there's some evidence for energy conversion for us in the special cases which so often strike our transporter teams. Say, we have the two episodes where a person is duplicated in transport, "Enemy Within" and "Second Chances", where the source of additional matter is left undescribed. Since supposedly there never is spare phased matter floating around, the transporter process must have been making use of something more easily accessible, which would open the way for using the basic transporter process for manufacturing. Then there's "Lonely Among Us" where Picard "beamed out, energy only". His matter stream (here referred to as "his physical pattern" by Data) was evidently left in the machinery, and atypically spent more than an hour there, but Picard's return involved some supernatural twists which may have allowed for the unusual recovery of such an old pattern. Yet the initial separation of "energy" from "physical pattern" was seemingly achieved by the standard transporter machinery, in a way our heroes immediately recognized, indicating the system is capable of fooling around with "pure energy", whatever that is.

Basically, what I'm saying is that while standard transporters are not replicators and vice versa per se, it's not just their operating principles but their actual practical modes of operation that are common or interchangeable when need be. Indeed, a replicator was turned into a transporter in DS9 "Visionary", in seeming mirror image of "Enemy Within" or "Second Chances".

What implications any of this has on war economy is unclear. A couple of special cases involving top-notch Starfleet hardware, unique natural phenomena or the efforts of Klingon elite operatives need not have any noticeable impact on what the respective societies can do on a large scale.