In both the first and second civil wars, notes accounts of people proceeding from Medina to Iraq via Mecca.Yet Mecca is southwest of Medina, and Iraq is northeast. Thus the sanctuary for Islam, according to thesetraditions was at one time north of Medina, which is the opposite direction from where Mecca is today!(Josef van Ess 1971, Anfange muslimischer Theologie, p.16; Muhammad b. Ahmad al-Dhahabi 1369, p.343).

The failure to consider authors other than Muhammad, the fallacy of bifurcation, is a problem that is found in nearly all criticisms of Islam. Everything we know about Muhammad comes not from the Qur'an, but from extracanonical sources such as sira literature, and various ahadith compilations; and, unfortunately, critics are a bit too willing to accept it all on face value. Even with writers such as Ibn Warraq and Ibn al-Rawandi, writers who have set a new tone in secular criticism of Islam, there is a hint of conflict. The writer seems torn between rejecting the traditional claims about the Qur'an's origin, and working with these traditions in order to formulate an understanding of Muhammad's role.

The reality is we have no reliable sources from which we can make any decisions with regard to the role Muhammad played in the creation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an itself tells us nothing, outside of a few ambiguous mentionings of a certain muhammad, or "praised one." All information on Muhammad, who he was, his interaction with Jibreel, his prophethood, et cetera, are derived from a highly questionable source: the ahadith. These are traditions that were, for the most part, written down and compiled more than two hundred years after the events they are allegedly relating. In fact, by the admission of the Muslims themselves, the most respected ahadith are those compiled by Imam Bukhari, who died in the late ninth century (roughly 870 CE), nearly two hundred and forty years after the time that Muhammad allegedly lived.

Furthermore, the dating system of the early Muslims is so weak that the issue of the gap in time between the writing of the ahadith and the events they are reporting becomes even more of a problem. According to Islamic tradition, Muhammad was born during 'am-al-fil, the year of the elephant, which was allegedly 570 CE. This was, according to Islamic folklore, a year that many of the pre-Islamic Arabs remembered, because it is when an army of Ethiopian warriors on Elephants was repelled by birds throwing stones. Following that, we get another tradition that tells us that Muhammad was called to prophethood at the age of forty (approximately 610 CE). It is from here that the Islamic calendar starts, based on a shaky tradition, that is itself based on another shaky tradition, and therefore it is totally unreliable.

Muslims will, no doubt, demand that we accept the highly tendentious ahadith collections as a reliable source of information, but there is no real reason to do so. Many of these traditions contradict one another, or are of a highly absurd nature. Even worse, the Qur'an itself seems to warn the believers against resorting to any hadith-based information. One verse of the Qur'an (31.6) warns against those who spread "frivolous stories" (lahv-al-hadith), and yet another (45.6) says, in a very straight forward way: () "These are the revelations of God which we recite to you correctly; in what hadith other than God and his revelations will they believe?"

Last edited by The Cat on Tue May 17, 2011 12:09 am, edited 3 times in total.

As a last word about the Sunnite's wall of lies, I think that this comment from Al Tabari sums it all:''I am writing this book as I hear from the narrators. If anything sounds absurd, I should not be blamed or held accountable.''Now, that's a qualified 'historian' isn't it?

It has been a while since I visted this thread and am glad it is till going strong. I would like to backtrack a bit to hopefully get some answers around the Koranic scripts. Now I understand that the script of prestige appears to have been used for formal and religious writtings and that those scripts were in the prestige script of the geographical locations. Now I have seen the pinpoints for the Nabatean Aramiac and the Musnad with clear distinctions between North and South Arabia and that the most likley script of Mecca's current location at the time of the revealing of the Koran would have been more than likley Musnad, or should I say should have been Musnad.

Can anyone assist in showing any further proof that the Musnad was the Prestige script of Mecca through other written works at the time of Mohammad.

since this thread and others like it are demonstrating that a) the Qur'an wasn't 'revealed', but was a series of writings collected and put together as a book probably in the 8th century, b) Mecca didn't exist in the 6th century and c) neither did Muhammad, at least not as the person he is widely portrayed to be.

Hi Cat. Thankyou for the link. I have read this thread several times and what amazes me is the bits you miss that you didn't realise were important until later . The bit that most interested me the most was the Al-Shams connection or modern day Syria (correct me if I’m wrong here). I will also attempt to answer BT’s questions in this post as well.

Thinking about this Al-Shams connection I immediately thought of a story quoted by Muslims about Mohammad’s mother Mina who had a dream/or when he was born said this:

Ahmad (16700) narrated from al-‘Irbaad ibn Saariyah that the Messenger of Allah said… and he mentioned the hadeeth according to which the mother of the Messenger of Allah saw, when she gave birth to him, a light which illuminated the palaces of Syria.

Now I’m not a fan of Haddith, but if Muslims want to swear by it, I will use it. I ask myself why Syria if she was supposed to be in Mecca more than a 1000 miles away and why not some other place ?. It obviously meant something ?.

Another interesting haddith I located:

Narrated Abu Huraira: In the year of the Conquest of Mecca, the tribe of Khuza'a killed a man from the tribe of Bani Laith in revenge for a killed person, belonging to them. They informed the Prophet about it. So he rode his Rahila (she-camel for riding) and addressed the people saying, "Allah held back the killing from Mecca. (The sub-narrator is in doubt whether the Prophet said "elephant or killing," as the Arabic words standing for these words have great similarity in shape), but He (Allah) let His Apostle and the believers over power the infidels of Mecca. Beware! (Mecca is a sanctuary) Verily! Fighting in Mecca was not permitted for anyone before me nor will it be permitted for anyone after me. It (war) in it was made legal for me for few hours or so on that day. No doubt it is at this moment a sanctuary, it is not allowed to uproot its thorny shrubs or to uproot its trees or to pick up its Luqatt (fallen things) except by a person who will look for its owner (announce it publicly). And if somebody is killed, then his closest relative has the right to choose one of the two-- the blood money (Diyya) or retaliation having the killer killed. In the meantime a man from Yemen came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Get that written for me." The Prophet ordered his companions to write that for him. Then a man from Quraish said, "Except Al-Iqhkhir (a type of grass that has good smell) O Allah's Apostle, as we use it in our houses and graves." The Prophet said, "Except Al-Idhkhiri.e. Al-Idhkhir is allowed to be plucked.

The bits of interest to me above are shrubs, tree’s and a type of grass with a sweet smell that all appear to be growing around Mecca. The last time I looked nothing grows in Mecca let alone in Mohammads time ?.

This leads me into further evidence of types of fauna and what the Meccans did for a living which is straight out of the Koran itself !. The following verses are all Meccan verses:

Sura 6-141: It is He Who produceth gardens, with trellises and without, and dates, and tilth with produce of all kinds, and olives and pomegranates, similar (in kind) and different (in variety): eat of their fruit in their season, but render the dues that are proper on the day that the harvest is gathered. But waste not by excess: for Allah loveth not the wasters.

Sura 13:4 And in the earth are tracts (diverse though) neighbouring, and gardens of vines and fields sown with corn, and palm trees - growing out of single roots or otherwise: watered with the same water, yet some of them We make more excellent than others to eat. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who understand!

Sura 16:11 With it He produces for you corn, olives, date-palms, grapes and every kind of fruit: verily in this is a sign for those who give thought.

Sura 16:10 It is He who sends down rain from the sky: from it ye drink, and out of it (grows) the vegetation on which ye feed your cattle.

Sura 16:66 And verily in cattle (too) will ye find an instructive sign. From what is within their bodies between excretions and blood, We produce, for your drink, milk, pure and agreeable to those who drink it.

Sura 18:32 Set forth to them the parable of two men: for one of them We provided two gardens of grape-vines and surrounded them with date palms; in between the two We placed corn-fields.

Sura 23:19 With it (rain) We grow for you gardens of date-palms and vines: in them have ye abundant fruits: and of them ye eat (and have enjoyment).

Sura 23:20 Also a tree springing out of Mount Sinai, which produces oil, and relish for those who use it for food.

Sura 23:21 And in cattle (too) ye have an instructive example: from within their bodies We produce (milk) for you to drink; there are, in them, (besides), numerous (other) benefits for you; and of their (meat) ye eat

Sura 36:34 And We produce therein orchard with date-palms and vines, and We cause springs to gush forth therein:

Sura 80:27 – 80-32 And produce therein corn, And Grapes and nutritious plants, And Olives and Dates, And enclosed Gardens, dense with lofty trees, And fruits and fodder, For use and convenience to you and your cattle.

It’s quite easy to see here that the Meccans were farmers and agriculturist. But that simply can’t be the case because the geography of Mecca and vast amounts of the country side around it simply doesn’t allow for this activity. Patricia Crone mentioned these attributes of the Meccan’s in her book.

Now lets have a look for some Geographical locations of where Mohammad may have been by looking at more Meccan verses from the Koran. I know “The Cat” has mentioned some in the past but I have included what I think are a few jems:

46:27 Surely We destroyed many a town around you. We sent Our Messages to them repeatedly and in diverse forms that they may eschew (their evil ways) and return (to Allah).

29:38 (Remember also) the 'Ad and the Thamud (people): clearly will appear to you from (the traces) of their buildings (their fate): the Evil One made their deeds alluring to them, and kept them back from the Path, though they were gifted with intelligence and skill.

10:13 Surely We destroyed the nations (which had risen to heights of glory in their times) before you when they indulged in wrong-doing and refused to believe even when their Messengers brought clear signs to them. Thus do We recompense the people who are guilty.

10:14 Now We have appointed you as their successors in the earth to see how you act.

20:128 Is it not a guidance for them (to know) how many a generation We destroyed before them, amid whose dwellings they walk ? Lo! therein verily are signs for men of thought.

37:133-138: So also was Lut among those sent (by Us).Behold, We delivered him and his adherents, allExcept an old woman who was among those who lagged behind Then We destroyed the rest.Verily, ye pass by their (sites), by day-And by night: will ye not understand.

All the above verses have nothing in common where modern day Mecca is. There is simply no destroyed towns or nations around them. But it’s clear that from these verses that Mohammad and the Meccan’s are the successors of these destroyed towns and cities and from verse 20:128 says they are even living in the very homes of those that were destroyed before them. How can this be ?? The geographical area these verses relate to are in North West Arabia and even refers to The Biblical Sodom and Gammorah where the Biblical LOT (LUT in the Koran) was from. Why would the pagan Meccans give a rats about events that occurred 1000 kilometers away. But yet the Koran goes as far and says that these pagans pass by the remains of these destroyed cities by day and by night in 37:133-138. Maybe this was a reason Mohammad initially failed to convert the Meccans ?.

As for where Mohammad really was ,I can safely assume from my studies he wasn’t in Mecca but anywhere from North West Arabia to Northern Arabia ?. But that is still a work in progress.

phill01 wrote: I ask myself why Syria if she was supposed to be in Mecca more than a 1000 miles away and why not some other place ?. It obviously meant something ?......

All the above verses have nothing in common where modern day Mecca is. There is simply no destroyed towns or nations around them. But it’s clear that from these verses that Mohammad and the Meccan’s are the successors of these destroyed towns and cities and from verse 20:128 says they are even living in the very homes of those that were destroyed before them. How can this be ?? The geographical area these verses relate to are in North West Arabia and even refers to The Biblical Sodom and Gammorah where the Biblical LOT (LUT in the Koran) was from. Why would the pagan Meccans give a rats about events that occurred 1000 kilometers away. But yet the Koran goes as far and says that these pagans pass by the remains of these destroyed cities by day and by night in 37:133-138. Maybe this was a reason Mohammad initially failed to convert the Meccans ?.

As for where Mohammad really was ,I can safely assume from my studies he wasn’t in Mecca but anywhere from North West Arabia to Northern Arabia ?. But that is still a work in progress.

Impressive research phill01.

In the hadith mentioning that the palaces of Syria were illuminated at his birth, this is clearly a religious metaphor to me.

As for the location of Mecca, confirmed by Siculus Diodorus and Jacob of Edessa, it was in the Paran/Midian area for sure.Hints given by 6.92/42.7 associate it with old al-Qura, its southernmost area, grosso modo nowadays province of Tabuk...It's in this area that we find most of Koranic places: Al-Hijr/Hegra (sura 15); Halal Badr (its battle), al-Ula (al-Haram), etc.

Modern Al-Ula (the highest, sura 87) and former old Dedan (bottom right), in ruins... Few miles from Al-Hijr/Hegra.

All this was mentioned in my Resource Center thread: -Mecca, Myth vs Reality: In Search of Mt Sinai.Linked few posts above.

" The Cat wrote : You're welcome, so go ahead my friend, just make sure to give the proper reference.

No worries I've done double check to all the references including wikipedia, free-mind.org etc. Thanks so much.

Free minder is a quran alone site. These arguments have been presented to justify quran alone faith but these arguments create a problem for the entire religion of islam and not just ahadith. Be careful while using these arguments.

Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

A.Z.The emotional responses against what the Cat has written down have been so emotional that they actually obfuscates the points they are trying to get across. What we have forgotten is that the Cat is exploring territory that hasn't been fully explored and that is a big risk. Navigating into the wilderness has it's perils and running into dead ends is inevitable. Those who dare to go that far into uncharted territory have my respect.

He is not facing the issue about bad and cruel preaching of Koran. Read his new translation and you will find out that he has totally revisionist , unheard of interpretaion of Koran.We are not sure about his kowledge of 4th to 5th century Arabic. We had enough of this kind of Takiyas from new age Islamic sects of Ahmadiyas and yes I will include Bahais too. I will be very suspeceous of intentions of people like him.These sects had utterly failed from making any impact on majority of muslims. No way one can compare them with Luther's protestant reform or secularization of christians.

Even if we can prove that Mohemmed was mythical person born some 200 years before muslim believed or Mecca was some where in Syria wont make muslims doubt their faith. Many ancient faiths have just done fine with absurd mythologies. Only thing we can do with muslims is to shame them , expose them , ridicule them, isolate them from "practicing" absurd belief system.

A quick question for Cat (and anyone else who cares to comment, of course...): I came across mention of a certain 'Sebeos' who is supposed to have been one of the first chroniclers of 'Muhammad' in year approx. 660 or so. This led me to the following: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Histor ... lysaw.html

Much earlier in this thread (half way down first page, in fact!) you tantalisingly gave us the following:

Next: So Who Was The Historical Muhammad?Well, I think he is known as one of his companion...And it just happens that he was 'Muhammad' too!He also had a brother called 'Mahmud'. Who's that?

But you never followed up...

And Ibn Rushd said:

Suliman Bashear was convinced that Muhammad ibn al-Hanifiya (son of the pagan woman) was the foundation for the fictional Muhammad that we read about today. He led a revolt in south Iraq in the 690s AD. Unfortunately the book he wrote about this is in Arabic, so I can't go through his argument at this time.

It was around here that the original title of this thread "Muhammad - Myth vs Reality" morphed into "Mecca - Myth vs Reality" and while I'm not complaining about that, I'd like to know whether you plan to get back onto the origins of Muhammad, especially based on the link above. For example, do we know how reliable the sources cited on that website are? Can you provide any further insight into what Sebeos and the other sources say? What is your view?

I will try and fill some gaps for you here with what “my take” on Sebeos said.

Sebeos wrote: At that time a certain man from along those same sons of Ismael, whose name was Mahmet [i.e., Mụhammad], a merchant, as if by God's command appeared to them as a preacher [and] the path of truth. He taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially because he was learnt and informed in the history of Moses. Now because the command was from on high, at a single order they all came together in unity of religion. Abandoning their vain cults, they turned to the living God who had appeared to their father Abraham. So, Mahmet legislated for them: not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsely, and not to engage in fornication. He said: 'With an oath God promised this land to Abraham and his seed after him for ever. And he brought about as he promised during that time while he loved Ismael. But now you are the sons of Abraham and God is accomplishing his promise to Abraham and his seed for you. Love sincerely only the God of Abraham, and go and seize the land which God gave to your father Abraham. No one will be able to resist you in battle, because God is with you.

To me it this is interesting because history shows that the Holy land was one of the last areas they conquered. The Arabs turned their aggression towards the Persians first and foremost. This reason for this is because the Arabs/Saracens were under “Tribute” to the Persians. It is interesting to note that in the year 621/622 A.D. Emperor Heraklieos (Byzantine King) set out against Persia as noted by Theophanes (Chronical p.435) . When Choseros (Persian King) heard of this, he sent a great horde of Saracens against them who were defeated by Heraklieos and their leader taken prisoner (Leaders name not mentioned). It is further interesting to note that at the exact same time Mohammad’s Hegira occurred (622 A.D) and the Arabs were then united, and rose up against the Persians The Persians had been severely weakened by Heraklieos and Choseros was pretty much on the run.In my view, the only reason the Arabs defeated the Persians was because the Persians were severely weakened by the Byzantines. Had the Arabs solely taken on the Persians, it is highly likely it would have ended very badly for them.

Further still on the Sebeos Chronical above. In the same article it fails to mention that it appears the Jews had gone to the Arabs for aid in repelling the Byzantines from the Holy land and tried to convince them (The Arabs) that they too were the rightful heirs to it through the seed Abraham. It is here where it is mentioned that one of prominence among them (Mohammad) who was well versed in Mosaic law and turned them (the Arabs) to the God of Abraham.So my question here is, could it be that the Jews had a hand in the creation of Islam and were allied with the Arabs in retaking the Holy land. From Sebeos it appears so !!. I believe Patricia Crone touched on this subject.

Moving on . I want to touch base again on (“Where was Mohammad”) in “The Cat’s” past posts on this thread.

Not sure if anyone has heard of the “Al Aqaba Pledge”. I found this rather interesting and noted that Muslims place it just to the East of modern day Mecca. I believe it is where they throw the stones at Satan ?.My question is why call it Al Aqaba ?. Al Aqaba or better known as Aqaba is located in the Southern most tip of Jordan at the top of the Gulf of Aqaba. The Islamic traditon is that there were two pledges of Al Aqaba where the first converts to Islam pledged their loyalty to Mohammad whilst on their Hajj from Medina and met Mohammad at Al Aqaba secretly. Could it be that it was actually at the physical location of Al Aqaba that is historically attested to in ancient times ??.

One other interesting point in relation to the fauna and wildlife found in and around Mecca that I touched on in my post previously. I found an Islamic website which talks about what can and can’t be done whilst in Mecca. Here is the website: http://www.hajjumrahguide.com/makkah.html

I was just about to book my plane ticket when I got to point 8 of what things are forbidden in the Harram of Mecca but realized I would have to leave my fishing gear at home since their doesn’t appear to be any water nearby where it says “it is permissible to hunt for water animals”.

We do not have much on him. But, according to the Doctrina Jacobi, the prophet was hitting Syria between 637-640,which corresponds with Maslama. More so while 'Muhammad' was just a nickname for the prophet as we know him,Muhammad was most probably the very first one to have it as a first name throughout Arabia!