News:

Good day, denizens of OC.net! Per our tradition, the forum will shut down for Clean Monday, beginning around 9pm Sunday evening (2/18) and ending around 9pm Monday evening (2/19). In the spirit of the coming Forgiveness Sunday, I ask you to forgive me for the sins I have committed against you. At the end of Great and Holy Week, the Forum will also shut down for Holy Friday and Holy Saturday (times TBA).

Mainstream Protestants complain about American Evangelicals every bit as bitterly as I do.

Is there really a difference? Mainstream American Protestants are Evangelicals for the most part; it has become the new movement within all of the American Protestant Churches. The only mainstream American Protestant Church I would exclude from this would be the Lutherans, but even they are not considered mainstream and Evangelicals have problems with them.

A thread that was made in response to something someone specifically said, in order to "call them out" on what they said.

I don't believe you are correctly representing the purpose of this thread; but honesty I don't much care to argue about it. I pretty much gave up on the purpose of this thread almost a month ago. I refer you to what I said in post #61:

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Dear all,

Since challenging podkarpatska's prayer request a couple days ago, I've received quite a few posts in reply. Some of them defended the prayer request, others described what's wrong with some or all Protestants (which I don't disagree with by the way), still others said that I was being provocative or picking a fight by challenging podkarpatska's request, or “too bad if the truth hurts”, among other thing (cf. my previous post to Schultz).

After many such posts, I was informed that when Orthodox pray for Protestants to be "kept at a distance" it doesn't refer to physical distance, and it was further hinted (I believe) that it is in fact equivalent to praying that the ministrations of American evangelicals fall upon deaf ears in those lands.

This has me at a great disadvantage, not only because I just recently learned something that most/all of you Orthodox posters knew from the start, but also because I really don't know whether Protestants who pray “for Orthodox to be kept at a distance from the US” are actually praying for the ministrations of Orthodox in the US to fall upon deaf ears, so I'm going to have to disqualify myself from that corner of the discussion.

But leaving that aside, I want to thank everyone who has posted on this thread, and also others like Fr. Ambrose and Wyatt, with whom I have conversed in the last month or so (which has been great by the way). Don't forget about me, I'll be back again before you know it.

With regard to whether I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church" you said, "As for how I came to this, your words in this very thread." But you haven't said which words. "Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church." which I admit I don't understand.

I would really like to know what I said that gave you the idea that I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church".

(Later you said that I "still haven't actually corrected anything", but I don't see how I can defend myself when you haven't shown me the evidence against me.)

Addendum: A few weeks ago I started using the descriptor "High Church" to explain where I am religiously. Not long after that, I began to think that I should perhaps be a little more specific, to avoid misunderstandings.

This line of thought led me, especially, to one particular question: am I still a Catholic, or am I now an Anglican? (I don't want to get into a lengthy explanation of what Anglican means; but for the sake of interpreting the preceding sentence, suffice it to say that for me "Anglican" includes not only the Anglican Communion, but the Continuing Anglicans as well.) I pondered this question for some weeks, and in the end the answer seemed quite clear: I am a Catholic. I do have a great liking for Anglicanism, at least as understood by the Continuing Anglicans, but it isn't who I am.

Having said all that, I want to set the record straight for anyone who may be wondering if I'm SSPX. I'm not. I definitely believe that the SSPX is and has always been Catholic, and I definitely think that studying them has been very helpful to me as a Catholic, but I'm not SSPX myself.

If you truly wish to be a missionary and to save lost souls, to bring them the Good News, to educate them about Christ, then go to the lands that are NOT Christian.

Somebody who is baptized once in a church and never darkened a church door once in their life, don't they need to hear the Gospel? Russia and Eastern Europe have a lot of those sorts of individuals. But instead the Orthodox Church in many of those countries seems to be preaching mostly nationalism and xenophobia... anything but the Good News of Jesus Christ.

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I know MANY Lutheran churches, Mormons, etc. first hand, that travel to Russia and Ukraine to save their lost souls. Their souls are not lost.

They are lost to religious nominalism. It sounds like an unevangelized land, frankly. The Gospel, the forgiveness of sins and eternal life, is being co-opted by nationalist interests of the myth of "Holy Russia". I'd say that's reason enough to evangelize.

Most of the Lutheran missionary work I have heard of in Russia is not looking to actively proselytize among devout Orthodox Christians. In some cases there is no actual "conversion" that happens. Mostly what happens is a liberal Russians of Orthodox background might prefer to go to a Lutheran or Methodist church because they feel alienated from the Orthodox Church. And almost always their baptisms are recognized as valid. Indeed, most Lutherans in Russia are ethnic minorities (German, Finnish), not actual ethnic Russians.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 10:16:29 AM by Daedelus1138 »

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"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess." - Martin Luther

But instead the Orthodox Church in many of those countries seems to be preaching mostly nationalism and xenophobia... anything but the Good News of Jesus Christ. [...] The Gospel, the forgiveness of sins and eternal life, is being co-opted by nationalist interests of the myth of "Holy Russia". I'd say that's reason enough to evangelize.

Do you actually know Russia? It sounds an awful lot like you're prejudicedly setting the most publicised problems of the Church as some kind of hegemony, as if there were 10 Dugins for each babushka there.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 09:45:27 PM by RaphaCam »

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"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Pure hubris, this idea that some upstart foreign sect could do the work of the Church and the Russian people better than they themselves can, or should do it for them at all.

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"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Well, sincerely, some religious competition can be good sometimes, clergy starts to wake up and adress their problems and the problems of the faithfull, really, if russian orthodox clergy is so concerned with that, they really should teach people better, because a orthodox that knows his faith clearly, probably wont convert to seventh day adventism or whatever. If they want to prevent people from going to protestant churches they really should adress those matters, spend more time teaching, behavingly in a saintly manner and stop promoting nationalism if that is the case.

Since many Evangelicals say Orthodox and RC's are not Christians, they dont think of it as proseletyzing.

Indeed. On the other hand, many Orthodox speak about Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists etc. as though we may as well not be Christian.

Sad, on both sides.

The difference is that the Orthodox can point to the exact anathemas against Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists etc. that the actual Church enacted and that they are subject to. Between the Seventh Ecumenical Council and the Photian Council (sometimes called the Eight Ecumenical) and the Palamite Councils, there's multiple grounds for heresy.

Meanwhile the Evangelicals read one Bible verse and suddenly icon veneration is idol-worship. Or maybe not, because you have the right to your own private interpretation of the Bible based on what you think the Holy Spirit told you regardless of what anyone else has ever said. But try to use that to defend the Church's version and they will become grumpy.

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Quote from: Nun M.

The dread Pantocrator...is also "Christouli mou", (my little Christ), who really listens when you run in to your neighborhood church on the way to work to cry and light a candle because your daughter is in trouble at school. The untouchable and all-holy Mother of God is also "Panayitsa mou", who really will take your part before the court of heaven because, just like your own mom, she’ll always stick up for her children, no matter how badly they’ve behaved.

I would agree in principle. However, from personal experience on both sides of this issue, those born in Orthodox countries have notoriously bad catechesis (or none at all) and quickly fall away to anyone teaching the magic prayer version of Christianity. We were highly successful just by saying you didnt need to pray, fast, or commune. Just pray this prayer, really mean it, and boom. You're in. Another notch on the gunbelt.

PP

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

I would agree in principle. However, from personal experience on both sides of this issue, those born in Orthodox countries have notoriously bad catechesis (or none at all) and quickly fall away to anyone teaching the magic prayer version of Christianity. We were highly successful just by saying you didnt need to pray, fast, or commune. Just pray this prayer, really mean it, and boom. You're in. Another notch on the gunbelt.

PP

Well, I dont think is that simple, evangelical churches, at least the ones I know, usually demand some sort of ''trial period'', some sort of catechesis, rebaptism....probably it is easier and faster than a orthodox conversion process, but there is still a process.

Well, I dont think is that simple, evangelical churches, at least the ones I know, usually demand some sort of ''trial period'', some sort of catechesis, rebaptism....probably it is easier and faster than a orthodox conversion process, but there is still a process.

Not the "sinner's prayer", "Once saved, always saved" flavor of American Evangelicalism. Usually, these folks are some kind of baptists who come from the South. They also usually view Roman Catholics and orthodox as not Christian at all.

PP

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

But instead the Orthodox Church in many of those countries seems to be preaching mostly nationalism and xenophobia... anything but the Good News of Jesus Christ. [...] The Gospel, the forgiveness of sins and eternal life, is being co-opted by nationalist interests of the myth of "Holy Russia". I'd say that's reason enough to evangelize.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

But instead the Orthodox Church in many of those countries seems to be preaching mostly nationalism and xenophobia... anything but the Good News of Jesus Christ. [...] The Gospel, the forgiveness of sins and eternal life, is being co-opted by nationalist interests of the myth of "Holy Russia". I'd say that's reason enough to evangelize.

Do you actually know Russia?

Do you?

Not personally, but exactly for that reason I should give them a presumption of innocence instead of painting their Holy Church as some Christian version of the Thule Society. All members of the ROC I met were either uncaring of these political projects, or worried. Maybe in Russia they're more involved by these narratives, but it's still an absurd caricature he painted to justify sheep-stealing.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 11:00:18 AM by RaphaCam »

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"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

In general, I don't know of any Anglicans or Lutherans who go to countries like Russia or Greece and try to convert Orthodox persons to their variety of Christianity. Anglicans have exactly three parishes in all of Russia. Since Anglicans consider themselves a National form of Catholicism, and classify Russian Orthodoxy as such, converting them would be considered stupid.

Lutherans also have a similar, albeit somewhat different take on the matter. The Scandinavian Churches hold a VERY similar view as the Church of England does. The rest of us Lutherans might have individual objections to Catholic and/or Orthodox theology (allow me to specify I personally have no objection to Orthodox theology as of yet because I don't KNOW enough of it), but that wouldn't go so far as to call them non-Christian. The idea of going to,for example, Russia, solely for the purpose of converting Russian Orthodox persons, would be beyond our comprehension. There ARE some Lutherans in Russia. But these tend to be people who ALREADY had an interest in Lutheranism, and simply expressed that interest to us, usually after a stay in Estonia or Latvia, both of which states are predominantly Lutheran.

Now, as for OTHER American Protestants (and I point out that Lutheran Christianity is predominantly worldwide and was the first form of Protestantism to exist in 1517 in Germany, quickly moving to Scandinavia and parts of Poland as well), I would agree, they LOVE to poach in the flocks of other Churches. That INCLUDES Lutheran Churches as well as Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

When it comes to the Assemblies of God and other Pentecostal-type traditions, Baptist traditions, and the like, who ARE Christian insofar as they recognise the Trinity, they are just offensive inasmuch as they reject the traditional Churches in favour of their own novel Fundamentalist theological standpoints.

And of course you have your Mormons and your Jehovah's Witnesses, who do not even fit the category of Christian in the traditional sense, since they both reject the Triune God as understood by the Church Fathers. And they LOVE to consider themselves the ONLY true Christians, and they LOVE to preach their heretical doctrines in lands wherein Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or even Anglicanism or Lutheranism are dominant. So you see, we are as much victims of that crap as you are.

I can tell you that in my State in the United States, Lutheranism is so predominant as to be the de facto State Church. NO ONE questions the dominance that it has here. It is largely divided into the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, and Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ. The last two are quite small. The first two are quite large, having 4 million members nationwide in the case of the first, and in the case of the second, 2.3 million.

The second largest grouping in this State is the Roman Catholic Church. And again, no one questions this. But here, both the Lutherans of all varieties and the Catholics have the money and the manpower to hold out against all comers.

I realise that in Russia of the '90's, and even to a point now, the religious matters regarding relations between Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic have been and are quite contentious. And where contention exists, an easy hole in the fence gets made for these less, shall we say, desirable of groups, like the Mormons and the JWs to get in.

Furthermore, I can TOTALLY see how it would vex you to no end! I would be p*ssed if that happened to my State here!

I actually think it'd be great if we had more Billy Grahams in Russia, by which I mean Protestants or Catholics from the USA who don't attempt to sheep steal, but instead cooperate with the Orthodox Church, as he did. Graham, arguably, deserves quite a bit of the credit for Orthodoxy's recovery following the Cold War, despite not even being Orthodox himself. It could, at the very least, help ease tensions between the countries.

Unfortunately, the younger generation of evangelical missionaries seem to be either prosperity hacks (who are only in it for the money), other radical charismatics, or Neo-Calvinists (the latter, among Protestants, are the ones most likely to call Orthodox unsaved. in constrast, Arminians such as Roger E. Olson are generally far more conciliatory towards Rome and the Orthodox and less likely to sheep-steal).

Sadly, Billy Graham doesn't have too many people following in his footsteps apart from his son (who also has a good relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church, although he's also more overtly political than I'd prefer him to be).

« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 12:33:31 AM by Minnesotan »

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I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.