Is Vengeance Getting Out Of Control?

What do you guys think?

I'll start by informing you all that I have not tanked anything other than leveling dungeons or heroic 5-mans since the end of Lich King, but I think Vengeance is getting out of control.I understand what they're trying to accomplish, I really do, but anymore Vengeance seems to bet getting more and more ridiculous. They want tanks to be fun and engaging, and when I'm leveling my Guardian or my Brewmaster, I must admit that being top DPS - even on my single target encounters - kind of puts a smile on my face. Even in your level 90 heroics, challenge modes, and raids it's not uncommon to see tanks of any class doing DPS spec DPS.

To the best of my knowledge, they introduced Vengeance for pretty much two reasons - 1) To help tank threat scale better and 2) To make tanks more fun / desirable to play. I can tell you that from my perspective though, as I've recently been leveling a handful of toons at all different level ranges, going into a dungeon run as a DPS and seeing the tank do twice as much damage as you is pretty disheartening. Most DPS specs cannot hope to compete with tank damage whilst leveling, especially during AoE. Now, I realize that balance for everything but level 90 content is pretty much null and void, but it's not uncommon to run into similar issues in max level content. Maybe not as extreme but they are still there.

The tank's "job description" as taken from the online Getting Started guide is:

"Tanks fight by outlasting their enemies. They are rugged, durable characters that can soak up a lot of damage before they go down. In groups, a tank’s role is to get the monsters to attack him instead of other, more vulnerable members of his group."

Nowhere in that description does it speak of dealing high amounts of damage, only that tanks "fight by outlasting." To me, that would imply they deal less damage but can take more punishment - your stereotypical knight in plate mail; doesn't strike as powerfully as a nimble rogue or cunning wizard, but can take hits that would down either of them.

With that mindset, if you were to approach this as a brand new player would it not raise questions as to why the protection spec warrior was doing more damage than yourself - a DPS spec? If it's a nuisance to myself, someone who's been playing off and on since Vanilla, then I can only imagine how irritating it could be to someone new.

My proposed solution would be to balance tanks around doing 1/3 to 1/2 the damage of what a DPS spec would do in the same content. Change Vengeance to, instead of granting AP, grant a higher percent of threat dealt as you take more damage. As the fight goes on, your threat continues to raise if you're tanking keeping DPS specs from overtaking you.

I know that some tanks love being so high on the charts, and that some will most likely flame me and remind me that low level content doesn't matter / count when balance is concerned. To that point though, I make a counterargument - With WoW losing more subs every quarter, realms dying, would it not be beneficial for them to do a tuning pass over the lower levels to try to keep the game as attractive to new players as possible? I'm not saying WoW is dying or some such nonsense, but I think few people could deny that the game desperately needs an influx of new blood. With the vast majority of players choosing DPS specs, doesn't it seem silly to make the guys who "Fight by outlasting their opponent" do nearly twice as much damage as them?

I couldn't really care if tanks are hitting huge numbers that are higher than the Dps. It could help them think they are helping more than just having some mob attacking them. Take away the large damage and whats the difference between a good tank that can hold agro and a bad tank that can hold aggro?

Though pvp is a different story. I miss the days back in BC where you could put a siphon life on a tank and outheal their damage.

Nowhere in that description does it infer that tanks can't do competitive damage.

Fights are balanced around tanks doing "decent" dps these days.

Noone cares about levelling dungeons. (The game is balanced around endgame)

Tanks are the most sought after role in game. Anything that makes them feel more fun should be encouraged, not discouraged. Being a sponge to soak damage does not encourage people to roll tanks.

If a dps of a similar item level can't outdamage a tank then they are bad. Perhaps tanks know their shit better than dps'rs (generalisation) because when they get it wrong theres wipes and angry noises. Dps'rs derping and doing low damage is just par for the course.

There, that's 5 points. If they want to do a "tuning pass" to stop the game losing subs then I'm sure tank damage will be low on the prio list.

It was out of control the moment blizzard added it. Tanking is about taking less damage and defending your team. You should have to work for your agro not have it given to you. DPS shouldn't even be remotely close to that of a dps spec and that shouldn't matter.

I like playing like a derailed freight train as a brewmaster but I do recognise that the damage scaling of vengeance is bad (and getting worse as bosses get harder) and that something will need to happen.

Back in MSV on single target I was more likely to sit with the lower DPS, but now in most fights I'm completely obliterating the meters. The difference in vengeance is huge.

Short answer is: No
Some people like to tank regardless of numbers, but both healers and dps has numbers to compete on.
Tanks just have a "WOOH I DIDN'T DIE".
Seems to be more healers and dps than tanks. Or used to be before the changes.
It's not like the healers role is less demanding than the tanks.
They do nerf vengeance in 5.4 to avoid people cheesing too much with it.

What you see is you being in low instances(challenge mode too), where the vengeance shows most. Among badly geared people(463 in challenge and high vengeance from actual damage), where dps have no chance to catch up with you on trash. They should win on most bosses though
later on it's only really on aoe-bosses, that tanks wins. On solo the dps goes far above them.

That being said, i wouldn't mind it much if they put it down to some ½ of a dps. It's still enough to matter, but i would be disapointed with suddenly doing 30-40k dps.
Probably not enough to stop tanking. At least not to i found another tank for the raid that didn't care about numbers.
Know a lot of others that would though. Have a good deal of people on the friendlist that added me because they wanted to be dps-tanks.

Not going to jump the bait with "people leaving, realms dying, sky falling"

So basicly you think the "fun" part of playing a tank is to do alot of damage?

That's basically what I'm saying.

Tanking is usually very boring because tanks either don't get affected by certain debuffs or have to deal with mind-numbing debuffs themselves (your typical tank-swap debuff).

If it wasn't for certain mechanics that allow you to increase your DPS I'd probably have switched classes some time ago. Because most of the time, tanking is (too) easy.

The 'challenging' part I was talking about is min-maxing and increasing my DPS. That's what keeps me going, what keeps my trying to get and perform better each time. I guess the same can be said for most players playing a DPS class.

I do agree its a little out of control but there's a huge problem with nerfing, and is prob the reason why they haven't done so yet....even the 5.4 nerf to veng wont really affect the majority of fights....for example all it would do is stop 1 tank zerg strat on animus....even Meg HC could still be one tanked with the veng nerf if your external rotation and dps can keep up with the breaths

By nerfing veng, mainly in 10man, they would have to re design the majority of bosses in ToT/SoO. In 10mans tanks damage is a huge factor and its just as important as DPS. Whether this is correct or not is a different discussion....but right now if your tank doesnt do good dps and your DPS dont totally out gear the fight....you will struggle to kill the boss.

By nerfing veng they would have to nerf the health and/or damage certain abilities, change berserk times or the cooldowns/timings of ability combos to compensate for the 100-150k (average) dps and 30-60k HPS (either absorbs or raid healing) a 10man team would lose.....its basically like removing one player from the raid.

The Main problem with vengeance spawns from the way certain classes mitigation work and also how easy it is to abuse veng and certain game mechs to gain high veng with very little danger.

An example of this would be haste paladin build on Dark animus 10man Hc Zerg. By using externals and glyphs you can basically tank the boss plus 3 small adds for around 10-15seconds....allowing you to veng cap.....then while veng capped you apply a huge sacred shield and with the haste from your build proc SoI/battle healer to become basically a 3rd healer.

Another example is Duru HC. By going to say 5 stacks will provide you with high veng, however when you bubble/HoP the stacks off the veng stays the same....allowing you to provide high dps/hps with again very little danger of dying.

So yes veng is a little out of control however the main problem this tier (and from current testing its looking the same in SoO) is how easy it is to abuse veng with very little risk of dying. You know something is wrong when spamming /sit is an optimal way to tank.

So i believe Veng should stay how it is but be a lot more punishing to reach such high numbers....making tanking more skill based but stay enjoyable.....removing veng all together or nerfing it back to old days would prob cause a lot of tanks to swap roles.....then causing people to moan about lack of tanks

By making reaching those veng levels difficult it will allow the more skilled players to still enjoy what they do and feel they are a benifit to their raid

By nerfing veng completely you will go back to the meat shield CTC Capping days of Cata....and tanking wasnt enjoyable back then as aside from ensuring your positioning was correct, you really had fuck all else to worry about as you were relying on CTC Rolls, not your own skills/rotation to mitigate damage.

I couldn't really care if tanks are hitting huge numbers that are higher than the Dps. It could help them think they are helping more than just having some mob attacking them. Take away the large damage and whats the difference between a good tank that can hold agro and a bad tank that can hold aggro?

Though pvp is a different story. I miss the days back in BC where you could put a siphon life on a tank and outheal their damage.

I think one of the main things separating good tanks from bad tanks is cooldown management. With MoP all tanks mainly use active mitigation instead of passive. Knowing when to use Frenzied Regen and when to use Savage Defense makes a good tank. Knowing when to use purifying brew to cleanse stagger and when to let it roll makes a good tank. Knowing when to taunt / side step / silence / avoid *insert big boss ability here* makes you a good tank. Heck, take away Vengeance and tune it to where being able to hold aggro against a good DPS means you're a good tank.

Allowing tanks to put out decent damage is probably my favorite addition to this game in a long time.

If they lowered tank damage back to Cata or even TBC levels I'd probably re-roll back to a DPS class.

Stating that you like tanking only because of big DPS is just as bad as Class A who rerolled Class B to get bigger numbers. Stating that you'd consider dropping your tank for a DPS main if they lowered tank damage almost seems a little FotM to me.

What you see is you being in low instances(challenge mode too)

Seriously, I mean, what is the real complaint here? 5-mans?

Also, stating (as I covered in the OP) that low level dungeons aren't balanced and "don't matter" is something that, in my opinion, needs to be addressed. Will WoW lose subs over it? No, it's highly doubtful. But it does tarnish the impression made upon new players and could possibly keep them from staying subbed and hitting max level. And while at max level Vengeance doesn't pose AS MUCH of a problem (tanks doing literally double the damage of a DPS) it does still present issues.

I do think that low level balance can be a huge turn off for new players. Play a level 90 rated BG and then go play a level 34 BG. The difference in game play balance is enormous. The same can be said for PvE content as well. Compare heroic Scholomance to the at-level version (I'm not insinuating that the current steamroll heroic model is good / acceptable, only that in terms of balance they're massively out of sync). In my opinion, it can be a little jarring to (as a DPS) run a dungeon and do substantially less damage than the tank.

Fights are balanced around tanks doing "decent" dps these days.

they would have to re design the majority of bosses in ToT/SoO.

I realize that any significant change in Vengeance would be put off until the next X-Pac. With current balance that's not something they could just throw into 5.4 and call it a day, when most content is balanced around having the extra DPS.

Not going to jump the bait with "people leaving, realms dying, sky falling"

I'm definitely not trying to be a sky is falling person, but the fact is that WoW is losing subs. This has been confirmed by their quarterly reports. While most were in Asia, it's silly to think that the US and European markets haven't been hit too. That said, I do not think WoW is dying. Some realms need help, and hopefully the virtual realms may alleviate some of that. But, that doesn't fix the problem, it treats the symptoms - Not enough players on Realms A, B, and C? Make it so that they all play together - instead of actively trying to keep new players.

Nowhere in that description does it infer that tanks can't do competitive damage.

You're right. It doesn't. However, in what fantasy / swords and sorcery game (or most any medium for that matter) do tanks - the characters built around defense (sword and board fighter for instance) - do more damage than someone who forfeits defense for offense (your typical rogue, ranger, wizard character)? Is it bad that WoW is different in that respect? Not necessarily, but it certainly can be jarring when you've come to rely upon particular fantasy archetypes.

Noone cares about levelling dungeons. (The game is balanced around endgame)

I'd say that the decline in new blood isn't helping the game in any way. Maybe the game isn't losing more subs than normal. Maybe it's just not gaining anywhere near as many new players as it used to. Why would you want to do anything to facilitate new players not sticking around? I'm not saying that Vengeance is the reason that people are leaving. Far from it. Vengeance does however make tank damage just silly in low level content.

Tanks are the most sought after role in game. Anything that makes them feel more fun should be encouraged, not discouraged. Being a sponge to soak damage does not encourage people to roll tanks.

Being a sponge to soak damage IS being a tank though! That's their job. That's the reason a tank role exists. I have no doubt that Blizzard could find more "fun" things to do with tanking than just giving them ludicrous damage done. Why not incorporate some support skills into tanking? Giving Guardians the ability to call up a wall of thorns where when they kite enemies into it the Guardian gets a small defensive boost and the mob has some negative effect. Give Protection Paladins the ability to "Transcend", changing them into a model similar to their Guardian of Ancient Kings. Throw some fancy abilities with Hammer, Judge, Wrath, and Holy in their names and call it a day. Make tanking more about positional requirements instead of stand still and tank, giving tanks something to focus on other than popping active cooldowns. I don't know, honestly. I'm not a game designer. Blizzard has some though. I'm sure they can give people a reason to tank other than "it does awesome damage."

I'm not trying to flame or insult anyone, just stating my opinion. Don't take offense if I quoted you and you didn't like how I replied - I just really enjoy this game and want to see it at its best.

I love my Dk tank I haven't played for a little while due to some problems but when I come back I will probably switch to dps depending how big the vengeance nerf is. I understand that the tanks job is to take damage but doing damage and cool down rotation is what separates a good tank from a bad tank.

Tanks doing dps is fun. Most people find bigger numbers more fun. Tanks being more fun to play, more people play tanks. Less QQing about the massive tank shortage.

Complaining about vengeance is dumb. They already said they are fixing some stuff for 5.4 thats going to stop the crazy high dps numbers. Your complaining about something that has already been acknowledged and is being worked on in 5.4.

Are tanks going back to Vanilla/BC days? Nope.
Should tanks go back to Vanilla/BC days? Nope