Do you agree with Goose Gossage on Rivera?Posted by tduecen on 3/11/13 at 10:46 am

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quote:Goose Gossage took pains to say it, repeating the same phrase several times Saturday. He did not, and was not, taking any credit away from Mariano Rivera. But calling Rivera the "greatest" closer of all time is anything but automatic for the former relieve

quote:"I think that these guys are so dominant in that one-inning role that they've forgotten what we used to do," the former Yankees closer said. "It takes three guys to do what we used to do."

quote:"I believe had Mo been used like us, he might have 350 saves," Gossage said. "You just wouldn't have had the numbers. The workload was amazing."

quote:"I would throw out the challenge of, do what we did and we'll compare apples to apples, and I believe today is the way they should be used," Gossage said. "I'm not taking anything away from Mo . . . We know we could have finished the ninth, Sutter, Rollie Fingers, myself. Could they have withstood that workload? I guarantee the numbers wouldn't be what the numbers are. It's impossible statistically to do it."

He did follow it up with:

quote:"What a career he's had, and on the biggest stage in baseball," Gossage said. "That's another thing you have to consider, what he did where he did it. And what a guy. Not only is he a great pitcher, he's as great a person as you would ever want. "Those kids down there, [David] Robertson and Joba [Chamberlain], have the greatest role model that you could ever have."

Joe Posanski who is a favorite writer of mine and others, followed up those comments with this in his blog.

quote:There should be a hotline for former star athletes to call. They would use it just for emergencies, just for those moments when they have this interesting thought but are not sure if they should make that thought public. For instance, before doing an interview like this with Newsday, Goose Gossage might call the hotline.

Goose: So, I'm thinking about talking again about how you can't compare Mariano Rivera to relievers of our time.

Hotline: Don't do it.

Goose: No, this time I'm going to talk about how great Mariano Rivera is, you know, how he's a great guy. I mean, I'll say it over and over again.

Hotline: Don't do it.

Goose: "No, it's OK, I'll keep saying that Mariano Rivera is great, really great, but you can't say he's the greatest because he's used in a different role than guys from our time, you know, like me. But he's really, really great and all, it's just that just guys from our time, you know, like me, would have been just as great if we were used the Mariano way. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while he's super great, he might not be any better than guys from our time, you know, like me, if Rivera had been used the way we pitch. But he's great."

Hotline: "Don't do it."

quote:Could Rivera have done what Gossage did? Well, look at the reliever numbers:

quote:]For Rivera to match Gossage in the basic numbers, he would have had to pitch 278 more innings -- all those multiple innings that Gossage pitched -- and he would have to allow 201 more (a tidy 6.51 ERA). He would have had to walk 350 or so batters in those innings, while allowing 42 home runs.[/b] And he would have had to do all that in a much lower scoring run environment. I'm guessing here, of course, but I think he could have managed it.

And as far as the ease of pitching one inning -- Gossage has called it easy in the past -- the Goose pitched exactly one inning 249 times in his career. His ERA in those outings: 3.75

quote:You know, if you just want to talk saves, Gossage does suffer. He blew 112 of the 432 save opportunities he had. Rivera has blown only 73 of the 681 chances he's had. It's not an entirely fair comparison, Gossage's save opportunities were different from Rivera's. But it's a comparison we make because Gossage can't just say "Mariano Rivera is a great and timeless relief pitcher" and leave it at that.

re: Do you agree with Goose Gossage on Rivera?Posted by Jester on 3/11/13 at 11:07 am to tduecen

Goose's ego is getting the best of him. There is no way to compare them in identical situations. The baseball has changed. Mo has had to go against a bunch of juicers. Parks have gotten more offensively-oriented. All that said, Mo's stats are better. Goose should have probably just kept his mouth closed.

Joe P addressed that to a degree and the difference in innings isn't dramatic and Rivera blows him away. Rivera could pitch at a 6.00 era over next 200 innings and still have a lower career number than Goose

re: Do you agree with Goose Gossage on Rivera?Posted by tduecen on 3/11/13 at 11:38 am to Rouge

What numbers?

quote:]For Rivera to match Gossage in the basic numbers, he would have had to pitch 278 more innings -- all those multiple innings that Gossage pitched -- and he would have to allow 201 more (a tidy 6.51 ERA). He would have had to walk 350 or so batters in those innings, while allowing 42 home runs.[/b] And he would have had to do all that in a much lower scoring run environment. I'm guessing here, of course, but I think he could have managed it.

re: Do you agree with Goose Gossage on Rivera?Posted by Keltic Tiger on 3/11/13 at 2:12 pm to Rouge

Let's see if the Goose can top this: more men have walked on the moon, 12, than have scored on Moe in the post season, 11. Goose is a great reliever, but he's never been called humble by any stretch of the imagination. Give me Moe, any game, any situation, any era.

re: Do you agree with Goose Gossage on Rivera?Posted by Tiger in NY on 3/11/13 at 3:51 pm to tduecen

I don't have a problem with his comments. They don't come off whiny and bitchy like Jerry Rice's bitching and moaning. He gives credit where credit is due, but states that relievers back when pitched 3 innings out, rather than 1 (or 2 batters).