Shop Talk - International Space Art Network2018-02-18T05:20:14Zhttp://spaceart1.ning.com/forum/topics/shop-talk?feed=yes&xn_auth=noI agree, David, it is a matte…tag:spaceart1.ning.com,2015-06-27:2641110:Comment:765422015-06-27T13:44:58.510ZMario John Borgattihttp://spaceart1.ning.com/profile/MarioJohnBorgatti
<p>I agree, David, it is a matter of trust. If artists falsify any claim regarding the provenance of their work I don't think they'll be taken as being credible. I like your concept of the "special tablet" and I don't think this approach, or something quite similar, to authenticity is far off...it may even exist at this time. </p>
<p>I agree, David, it is a matter of trust. If artists falsify any claim regarding the provenance of their work I don't think they'll be taken as being credible. I like your concept of the "special tablet" and I don't think this approach, or something quite similar, to authenticity is far off...it may even exist at this time. </p> Well I've only been producing…tag:spaceart1.ning.com,2015-06-27:2641110:Comment:764552015-06-27T13:15:48.792ZDavid A. Hardyhttp://spaceart1.ning.com/profile/DavidAHardy
<p>Well I've only been producing digital art in Photoshop on a Mac since 1991, having been doing 'trad' art since 1952, so what would I know? ;-) It's largely a matter of trust: if an artist says that (s)he has only produced one print or giclée and has destroyed the original digital file, then only seeing another copy can prove that they were lying. In my novel, 'Aurora', I have an artist on Mars who works on a special tablet in which the crystalline structure is 'locked' when a work is…</p>
<p>Well I've only been producing digital art in Photoshop on a Mac since 1991, having been doing 'trad' art since 1952, so what would I know? ;-) It's largely a matter of trust: if an artist says that (s)he has only produced one print or giclée and has destroyed the original digital file, then only seeing another copy can prove that they were lying. In my novel, 'Aurora', I have an artist on Mars who works on a special tablet in which the crystalline structure is 'locked' when a work is finished, and no further changes can be made; hence, an original. . .</p> Marie,
Your looks and talent…tag:spaceart1.ning.com,2012-03-03:2641110:Comment:516582012-03-03T06:18:36.973ZMario John Borgattihttp://spaceart1.ning.com/profile/MarioJohnBorgatti
<p>Marie,</p>
<p>Your looks and talent are complimented by your graciousness. This argument has been discussed, sometimes heatedly, on art forums all across the internet. It was your challenge that prompted me to research this burning question and I think we can both be credited with the conclusion regarding the matter of original data. </p>
<p>That said, A digital artist, or artists using any media for that matter, have a long way to go before they can even come near your spectacular works.…</p>
<p>Marie,</p>
<p>Your looks and talent are complimented by your graciousness. This argument has been discussed, sometimes heatedly, on art forums all across the internet. It was your challenge that prompted me to research this burning question and I think we can both be credited with the conclusion regarding the matter of original data. </p>
<p>That said, A digital artist, or artists using any media for that matter, have a long way to go before they can even come near your spectacular works. They are truly inspirational!</p>
<p>Mario</p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Marie Green said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://spaceart1.ning.com/forum/topics/shop-talk?commentId=2641110%3AComment%3A52106&amp;xg_source=msg_com_forum#2641110Comment52106"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>True - absolutely true and I applaud you and smack myself for forgetting that. There is an original data file for a piece of digital art. I concede. </p>
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</blockquote> True - absolutely true and I…tag:spaceart1.ning.com,2012-03-03:2641110:Comment:521062012-03-03T06:03:14.098ZMarie Greenhttp://spaceart1.ning.com/profile/MarieGreen
<p>True - absolutely true and I applaud you and smack myself for forgetting that. There is an original data file for a piece of digital art. I concede. </p>
<p>True - absolutely true and I applaud you and smack myself for forgetting that. There is an original data file for a piece of digital art. I concede. </p> Marie, I totally agree with…tag:spaceart1.ning.com,2012-03-03:2641110:Comment:517412012-03-03T05:52:57.651ZMario John Borgattihttp://spaceart1.ning.com/profile/MarioJohnBorgatti
<p>Marie, I totally agree with your analysis.</p>
<p>An original work should be unique from any and all copies in every respect, including, as you have pointed out in the case of digital art, the data as well.</p>
<p>For purposes of this discussion, and since I can't upload a PSD here, I submit an original PNG document, RED BALL, the top Image, and a copy of the same image below it of which not a single element has been altered. I've also attached PNGs of the HTML &amp; binary code beneath the…</p>
<p>Marie, I totally agree with your analysis.</p>
<p>An original work should be unique from any and all copies in every respect, including, as you have pointed out in the case of digital art, the data as well.</p>
<p>For purposes of this discussion, and since I can't upload a PSD here, I submit an original PNG document, RED BALL, the top Image, and a copy of the same image below it of which not a single element has been altered. I've also attached PNGs of the HTML &amp; binary code beneath the images in the same sequence. For purposes of demonstration I've emboldened the bit strings that are unique to their respective images. Although I may have missed a few, the differences between the two images are many and I believe a side by side comparison of the two illustrates the uniqueness of the original.</p>
<p>Ive made other copies of this same image, run the text through a binary code generator and I've yet to find any version where all the data matches perfectly. Apparently the computers internal clock is at work here. A time line is embedded into every document produced and at a future date and time, when any an all subsequent copies are produced, the computer updates the data automatically. This establishment of time, built into every computers logic system, makes every single document we create unique.</p>
<p>The obvious benefits for those who create using digital media: The date and location of origin are firmly established, thus providing a record which could be helpful in prosecuting online thieves so eager to lay false claim to ones proprietary brainchild.</p>
<p>Thank you Marie, Your challenge has me thinking!</p>
<p>Mario</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/d6QQUTUHlq*wcfLalbCyfpbs1JDLfkxSd02pLptOP5altnCDqaxzEl82z4cd0DyhwGhhpOLh2Mzmrc3CG4vSp*rS558NVbq7/REDBALLoriginal.png"><img class="align-full" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/d6QQUTUHlq*wcfLalbCyfpbs1JDLfkxSd02pLptOP5altnCDqaxzEl82z4cd0DyhwGhhpOLh2Mzmrc3CG4vSp*rS558NVbq7/REDBALLoriginal.png" width="216"/></a></p>
<p><strong>RED BALL - PNG Original</strong></p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/ps3WwLLP1jxwhCeJh3TVr2SMWIpDeHn1k1PNSJv9xl*vEixqgt4gEhAONaAhDTegxbgd-qYjAWcXpnSR0GKnR2ifREs*W23Q/REDBALLcopy.png"><img class="align-full" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/ps3WwLLP1jxwhCeJh3TVr2SMWIpDeHn1k1PNSJv9xl*vEixqgt4gEhAONaAhDTegxbgd-qYjAWcXpnSR0GKnR2ifREs*W23Q/REDBALLcopy.png" width="216"/></a><strong>REDBALL - PNG Copy</strong></p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/N9-ZCXYOVGZjphHnPA*2uqdiXep1n4s5Rtdtz1saiRj7g-4*-bLB6JhEKmiZje9x5AvsrfiEgRTbo1oOh5zkB6UxYUB6Cjqz/REDBALLORIGINALPNG.png"><img class="align-full" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/N9-ZCXYOVGZjphHnPA*2uqdiXep1n4s5Rtdtz1saiRj7g-4*-bLB6JhEKmiZje9x5AvsrfiEgRTbo1oOh5zkB6UxYUB6Cjqz/REDBALLORIGINALPNG.png" width="611"/></a><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/HbiEuiVVmeKk5FVK3LLVyzh*f8eqcktRuCdBIhRo-kVXy9zQ1EhUMmu8HM3kDUT1EB-cISdfWNELFw23BGv0wpaVWPvEuIhW/REDBALLCOPYPNG.png"><img class="align-full" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/HbiEuiVVmeKk5FVK3LLVyzh*f8eqcktRuCdBIhRo-kVXy9zQ1EhUMmu8HM3kDUT1EB-cISdfWNELFw23BGv0wpaVWPvEuIhW/REDBALLCOPYPNG.png" width="609"/></a><br/> <br/> <cite>Marie Green said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://spaceart1.ning.com/forum/topics/shop-talk?id=2641110%3ATopic%3A1416&amp;page=3#2641110Comment52091"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>You make such an excellent case for an original digital file that I feel churlish continuing with my opposing view. But I shant let that stop me of course! :D</p>
<p>For there to be an original it must be unique and therefore no other one exactly like it exists in the world. </p>
<p>I speak here of the actual file data on it - not the name given to the file (or possibly in this case a folder full of files).</p>
<p>We have agreed that the original can be reproduced to create xxx originals such that the files/folder would be indistinguishable from each other. We accept that this is done because one needs to back up one's work etc. The very act of backing up the original file means it is no longer an original.<br/><br/>Regardless of the undertakings of the owner of the original file, when a copy of file is made there is no longer an original in existence. Renaming the file does not change the file data. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Perhaps our terminology should adapt to the new technology? </p>
<p><span>.</span></p>
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</blockquote> I have not read them yet but…tag:spaceart1.ning.com,2012-03-01:2641110:Comment:517302012-03-01T06:37:18.161ZKennith Perryhttp://spaceart1.ning.com/profile/KennithPerry
I have not read them yet but I will, thanks.
I have not read them yet but I will, thanks. You make such an excellent ca…tag:spaceart1.ning.com,2012-03-01:2641110:Comment:520912012-03-01T05:14:32.647ZMarie Greenhttp://spaceart1.ning.com/profile/MarieGreen
<p>You make such an excellent case for an original digital file that I feel churlish continuing with my opposing view. But I shant let that stop me of course! :D</p>
<p>For there to be an original it must be unique and therefore no other one exactly like it exists in the world. </p>
<p>I speak here of the actual file data on it - not the name given to the file (or possibly in this case a folder full of files).</p>
<p>We have agreed that the original can be reproduced to create xxx originals…</p>
<p>You make such an excellent case for an original digital file that I feel churlish continuing with my opposing view. But I shant let that stop me of course! :D</p>
<p>For there to be an original it must be unique and therefore no other one exactly like it exists in the world. </p>
<p>I speak here of the actual file data on it - not the name given to the file (or possibly in this case a folder full of files).</p>
<p>We have agreed that the original can be reproduced to create xxx originals such that the files/folder would be indistinguishable from each other. We accept that this is done because one needs to back up one's work etc. The very act of backing up the original file means it is no longer an original.<br/><br/>Regardless of the undertakings of the owner of the original file, when a copy of file is made there is no longer an original in existence. Renaming the file does not change the file data. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Perhaps our terminology should adapt to the new technology? </p>
<p><span>.</span></p> Marie, Thanks for your challe…tag:spaceart1.ning.com,2012-02-29:2641110:Comment:517292012-02-29T17:08:52.288ZMario John Borgattihttp://spaceart1.ning.com/profile/MarioJohnBorgatti
<p>Marie, Thanks for your challenge and your passion, it's what separates artists from critics. In response to your comment, which finds my previous post lacking in convincing content, I will attempt to clarify my point.</p>
<p>It is true, one can make multiple copies of a PSD. But, they are just that, mere copies and are designated as such at the time the the artist chooses to make them (which is rarely necessary and usually done when saving to an external hard disc or some other media storage…</p>
<p>Marie, Thanks for your challenge and your passion, it's what separates artists from critics. In response to your comment, which finds my previous post lacking in convincing content, I will attempt to clarify my point.</p>
<p>It is true, one can make multiple copies of a PSD. But, they are just that, mere copies and are designated as such at the time the the artist chooses to make them (which is rarely necessary and usually done when saving to an external hard disc or some other media storage device).</p>
<p>Even If the artist decides to sell the work as prints or downloads, either of which is a compressed single layer version, there is no need to sell the master. Artist's who sell their masters and all the rights that go along with it, are legally bound to refrain from reselling the image and bans them from any future use of that image, even if using it for reference material, without express permission from the owner.</p>
<p>As you know there have been, cases before the courts where the buyers of original digital art have contested any further use of their rightful property by the artist from whom it was purchased. In most every case the courts have ruled in favor of the purchaser, stating in their opinions that not only does the new owner own the digital master, but all related copyright claims; thereby relegating the master are useless to the seller/artist. Any attempt to resell the art in question would be tantamount to stealing an oil on canvas from the new owner's collection.</p>
<p>Therefore, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of a PSD master with regards to it's validity as an original work. The original PSD master lives only on the originator's computer hard drive. Multiple internal copies of the original master are just that - copies. Any copies produced outside of that disc are merely compressed versions. If the artist loses his work due to a computer malfunction, and is unable to recover that work, it is no different than a painting destroyed by fire.</p>
<p>I know this discussion will never be settled and that's not a bad thing. It's always good when issues like this are aired, especially when it is done among artists <em>sans</em> the interjection of art critics. Furthermore, I'm truly enjoying this spirited debate and look forward to further exchanges on the subject.</p>
<p>- Mario</p> Aha! I figure score one to me…tag:spaceart1.ning.com,2012-02-29:2641110:Comment:517282012-02-29T08:27:52.170ZMarie Greenhttp://spaceart1.ning.com/profile/MarieGreen
Aha! I figure score one to me regarding a scenes of an original for digital art as no one refuted my argument. :D. Just saying....
Aha! I figure score one to me regarding a scenes of an original for digital art as no one refuted my argument. :D. Just saying.... Thank you Kennith, Have you s…tag:spaceart1.ning.com,2012-02-29:2641110:Comment:520902012-02-29T06:57:32.591ZMario John Borgattihttp://spaceart1.ning.com/profile/MarioJohnBorgatti
<p>Thank you Kennith, Have you seen any of David A. Hardy's tutorials on this site. I tried a couple and they're really excellent Photoshop lessons, - Mario</p>
<p><cite>Kennith Perry said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://spaceart1.ning.com/forum/topics/shop-talk?id=2641110%3ATopic%3A1416&amp;page=2#2641110Comment51788"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">That is a great galaxy painting. I've got photoshop but don't use it as much as I should. I have found a great tutorial for a space…</div>
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<p>Thank you Kennith, Have you seen any of David A. Hardy's tutorials on this site. I tried a couple and they're really excellent Photoshop lessons, - Mario</p>
<p><cite>Kennith Perry said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://spaceart1.ning.com/forum/topics/shop-talk?id=2641110%3ATopic%3A1416&amp;page=2#2641110Comment51788"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">That is a great galaxy painting. I've got photoshop but don't use it as much as I should. I have found a great tutorial for a space scene using ps I found in a magazine called fantasy art volume 2. I hope to use it soon after I finish my current scene I just started.</div>
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