#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-03-25

Back[00:01:29]<mirage335> In any case, I have fairly specific requirements for the circuit traces. I need them to be symmetrical as much as possible... this is for an instrument amplifier (normally these are built as a single chip).
[00:02:08]<mirage335> Its very important to keep inductance, capacitance, etc, symmetrical.
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[00:27:48]<The_Ball> I have a rust problem in my shed, I get some slight surface rust on bare metal surfaces, so I've started monitoring temperature vs. humidity: http://wigen.net/shed/ At what relative humidity levels does surface rust start?
[00:28:30]<pcw_> is it humidity or condensation?
[00:29:00]<The_Ball> pcw_, good question, I don't know
[00:29:22]<The_Ball> For example on my lathe chuck there is a very fine almost dust like layer of rust
[00:30:24]<The_Ball> I've put in an air condition unit, and I want to use it to control the humidity, but I need a target
[00:34:29]<pcw_> I would suspect if you keep the lathe temp above the dew point you will not have anymore rust
[00:35:31]<pcw_>http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=46666[00:35:43]<joe9> after around 4 hours of running the latency test, the max jitter is around 270,925 ns. Is that good?
[00:35:52]<Jymmm> The_Ball: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point[00:35:59]<joe9> with heavy load.
[00:36:05]<Jymmm> The_Ball: http://www.dpcalc.org/[00:36:11]<joe9> this is with pretty good load.
[00:39:19]<pcw_> Its fairly terrible, I would go through the WIKI latency issues checklist
[00:40:33]<joe9> oh, really. that bad, huh. let me check the wiki then. thanks.
[00:41:34]<pcw_> machines with decent latency like the Atoms are often in the sub 10,000 ns region
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[00:43:08]<joe9> ok, thanks.
[00:44:43]<The_Ball> pcw, Jymmm, thanks
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[00:47:46]<The_Ball> interesting reading, I've moved a server out into the shed which uses about 150W which might help it seems
[00:50:41]<pcw_> I think the trick is to apply some heat directly to the machine
[00:51:09]<pcw_> so its too warm for water to condense on
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[00:52:22]<The_Ball> yeah, I could put some power resistors on the machines and run them a few hours before 0730, that looks like time when the damage happens
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[01:32:19]<djdelorie> The_Ball: woodworkers use paste wax to protect iron from rust; either Johnson's Furniture Wax or Butcher's Bowling Alley Wax
[01:32:34]<djdelorie> those two are the only two known to *not* contain silicone, which messes up wood finishes
[01:32:39]<djdelorie> (in case you care ;)
[01:33:14]<cradek> I tried Johnson's on my mill (for under the vise). WD40 works much better for me.
[01:33:46]<The_Ball> djdelorie, ah, not a concern but interesting
[01:34:14]<ssi> cradek: have you ever gotten a fault on one of your HNC's servo amps?
[01:34:31]<djdelorie> silicone is a water repellent, which is normally good, except it's an everything-else-repellent too, so you get bare spots and fish-eye if you try to put a finish over it
[01:34:48]<cradek> I don't think so. I don't even think I remember them having a fault output?
[01:34:59]<ssi> they do have a fault output, but it's not hooked up in the original control
[01:35:10]<cradek> you having troubles?
[01:35:13]<ssi> my X amp isn't doing anything now all of a sudden
[01:35:16]<djdelorie> the wax itself dissolves in hydrocarbons, so it won't repel grease or oil if you later want to oil you machine
[01:35:17]<ssi> I have my Z axis jogging
[01:35:24]<cradek> ouch
[01:36:00]<ssi> I hope I'm just doing something dumb
[01:36:08]<ssi> I dunno what to do if i killed the amp :P
[01:36:24]<cradek> fix it? it's all discrete.
[01:36:40]<cradek> or at least I think it is
[01:36:53]<ssi> yea it is
[01:41:37]<cradek> I have schematics ... somewhere
[01:41:48]<ssi> I've got them here
[01:41:53]<cradek> within 10 miles of where I'm sitting
[01:41:55]<ssi> I'm reading through the manual to see if I missed anything
[01:42:03]<cradek> oh yay! much closer at hand than mine.
[01:42:09]<ssi> book says the inhibit circuit is 10mA sink
[01:44:07]<cradek> how dead is it? I assume you checked all the power supply lines.
[01:44:15]<ssi> yea I've got good power on the big cap
[01:44:24]<cradek> and the +-12
[01:44:28]<ssi> yep they're good too
[01:44:38]<ssi> I haven't checked it since I went to the store
[01:44:45]<ssi> maybe with it sitting powered down for awhile the fault cleared
[01:45:15]<cradek> I think I remember helping someone else debug a fault on one of those
[01:45:25]<ssi> cradek: are you using your PC power supply for the +/-12 bias?
[01:45:34]<cradek> I think we ended up disabling (with sidecutters) a fault detection that wasn't working right
[01:45:38]<cradek> yes
[01:45:45]<ssi> I wasn't sure how much current it requires
[01:45:49]morfic- is now known as morfic[01:45:52]<ssi> cause the PC supply is rated 0.6A for -12
[01:45:53]<cradek> teeny bit, I bet
[01:46:00]<ssi> I'm sure
[01:46:08]<cradek> it probably runs the op-amps and nothing else
[01:46:10]<ssi> probably just to run the amps
[01:46:10]<ssi> yea
[01:46:40]<cradek> I wish the schematics were online
[01:46:53]<ssi> oh hell
[01:46:55]<ssi> I bet I know what it is
[01:47:04]<ssi> you know
[01:47:07]<ssi> monday I'll bring them to work
[01:47:13]<ssi> I can run them through one of the big copiers
[01:47:20]<ssi> and it'll double-side scan a sheaf and email me a pdf
[01:47:23]<ssi> and I'll put it up somewhere
[01:47:46]<ssi> so for overcurrent or overvoltage faults
[01:47:53]<ssi> the inhibit clear is "remove bias voltage"
[01:47:59]<ssi> even though I've shut down the 90VDC power to the thing
[01:48:03]<ssi> I have to shut the computer down to remove bias
[01:48:06]<ssi> and I haven't done that
[01:48:14]<cradek> aha!
[01:48:32]<cradek> can you tell which fault it was?
[01:48:38]<ssi> not sure
[01:48:59]<cradek> I've worked on so many amps my memory is fuzzy about these
[01:53:08]<ssi> heheh
[01:54:08]<ssi> so I have ALMOST enough IO to do everything in two ports
[01:54:15]<ssi> I wanted to reserve a port for front panel
[01:54:35]<ssi> I wired a GPIO for the spindle brake, which I have removed and may not put back in
[01:54:38]<ssi> so I can steal that one back
[01:54:50]<ssi> but I need one for the coolant pump VFD
[01:54:58]<cradek> they sure run out fast, don't they
[01:55:05]<ssi> I might try to use one of the 7i49's PWM outs to run the coolant pump
[01:55:09]<ssi> not sure if that's smart or not
[01:55:26]<ssi> but I would like to use a GPIO for the inhibits on the servo amps
[01:55:40]<ssi> wire them to machine-on
[01:55:47]<cradek> yeah you absolutely must be able to turn the amps off
[01:55:57]<ssi> I have them wired to a toggle switch at the moment
[01:56:00]<cradek> they must turn off when you get a following error for instance
[01:56:03]<ssi> yeah
[01:56:20]<cradek> remember the 7i33 has enable-outs
[01:56:35]<ssi> OH RIGHT
[01:56:36]<ssi> yeah that'll work
[01:56:56]<Jymmm> The_Ball: You would be surprised how much heat even a 40W lightbulb can produce
[01:56:57]<cradek> I think they'll work, not sure if they're isolated differently (or not)
[01:57:03]<ssi> should work fine
[01:57:13]<ssi> just need to pull it down to ground, and the book says 10mA
[01:57:55]<ssi> anyway
[01:58:03]<ssi> I'm gonna go try removing bias supply and see if I can get the damn thing back online
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[02:09:51]Tom_itx is now known as Tom_L[02:10:04]Tom_L is now known as Tom_itx[02:13:16]<ssi> ok it's working now
[02:13:29]<ssi> and I was able to confirm -AOUT for positive travel
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[02:36:14]<ssi> cradek: the enables on the amps sit at 10.5V when they're not pulled down... the manual claims that it's 10mA when on
[02:36:26]<ssi> cradek: the 7i49 ENA+- inputs are optocoupled according to the book
[02:36:29]<ssi> can I do that directly?
[02:36:58]<djdelorie> based on those specs, you should be able to short that pin to ground to switch it...
[02:37:21]<ssi> yes, of course
[02:37:28]<ssi> and that's what I've been doing, through a toggle switch
[02:37:41]<ssi> I just want to make sure I can pull it down to ground with the ENA pins on the '49 safely
[02:38:23]<djdelorie> the opto isn't driving the pin enough, or something else is broken?
[02:38:35]<ssi> ?
[02:38:49]<djdelorie> sorry, coming in in the middle of the conversation...
[02:40:31]<ssi> according to the book, there are two enable inputs on the '49, and as long as both of them are low, all the aouts work and all the enables are switched on
[02:49:17]<djdelorie> grasping at straws here - do you have an ammeter ?
[02:49:39]<ssi> haha not anymore, sadly
[02:49:48]<ssi> wait, maybe i do
[02:50:17]<djdelorie> use the ammeter to short that enable input low; it will tell you how many milliamps are required. If the output you're using can provide that, you're good :-)
[02:50:39]<ssi> no, no I don't
[02:50:42]<ssi> dammit
[02:50:50]<ssi> and I think the book lies
[02:50:52]<ssi> book says 10mA
[02:50:57]<ssi> but I'm pretty sure this thing is eating optos
[02:51:01]<djdelorie> the 7I49 book?
[02:51:01]<ssi> so I don't think it's 10mA
[02:51:05]<ssi> no the servo drive book
[02:52:09]<djdelorie> you can add a bigger transistor on an opto output, in a darlington configuration, using the opto as the first stage transistor
[02:53:17]<djdelorie> add a series resistor on the opto to limit *its* current to 10mA or less, let the bigger transistor drive the servo
[02:55:50]<ssi> I have it pulled down to ground through 150R right now
[02:55:55]<ssi> and that's low enough to enable it apparently
[02:56:08]<ssi> but the enable pin is at 3.81v across that 150R resistor
[02:56:11]<ssi> which is 25mA
[02:56:31]<djdelorie> that will let the magic smoke out, sure.
[02:56:53]<djdelorie> heh. you have an ammeter *now* ;-)
[02:56:59]<ssi> yes exactly :)
[02:57:18]<ssi> I guess it's cause the two amps have their enable pins paralleled
[02:57:41]<djdelorie> it would be more than 10 if they weren't, though.
[02:57:47]<djdelorie> based on those numbers
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[03:00:21]ries_ is now known as ries[03:01:23]<djdelorie> that puts the internal pull-up at around 270 ohms, WAY too little resistance for a pullup, IMHO
[03:01:49]* djdelorie smells a short...[03:02:11]<ssi> lemme check the scheme
[03:02:57]<djdelorie> given the pullup resistance, and the voltage it's pulling to, and the trigger voltage for whatever's watching that voltage, you should be able to calculate a maximum shorting resistance that still enables it...
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[03:06:16]<ssi> pcw: I think I may have blown a couple of the optos on the ENA outs on my '49
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[03:07:33]pcw_ is now known as pcw[03:08:14]<ssi> djdelorie: I'm gonna post the scheme
[03:09:41]<ssi>http://www.prototechnical.com/~imcmahon/pwm50-scheme.jpg[03:12:19] -!- pcw_ [pcw_!~chatzilla@ip-66-80-167-54.sjc.megapath.net] has joined #linuxcnc
[03:12:21]<ssi> I guess R61 (560Ω) is the "pullup" for that?
[03:12:42]<djdelorie> which pin are you connecting to?
[03:12:46]<ssi> E
[03:13:00]<pcw_> I think the 7I49 optos are 10 mA
[03:13:09]<ssi> pcw_: yeah, that's what the manual says
[03:13:13]<djdelorie> and V+ is... ?
[03:13:21]<ssi> pcw_: and the servo drive manual says that the enable input is 10mA
[03:13:32]<ssi> pcw_: but I neglected to take into consideration that both of them are paralleled :(
[03:13:35]<ssi> djdelorie: 12V
[03:13:42]<pcw_> 25 shouldn't hurt
[03:13:49]<ssi> djdelorie: the open state of pin E is around 10.5V
[03:13:51]<djdelorie> 12c / 560R = 21.4 mA
[03:14:36]<pcw_> but it may not pull low enough
[03:14:58]<alex4nder> evening
[03:15:00]<ssi> pcw_: well, I can put an ohmmeter across the ena+- pins on the optos that I haven't attached this thing to, and when I enable the machine the ohmmeter reads continuity
[03:15:02]<pcw_> But how did you blow your ammeter fuse on enable?
[03:15:06]<djdelorie> er, 12V. 10.5V yeah, the 10.5 is just the 12V times the 560/5600 resistor divider
[03:15:17]<ssi> pcw_: on the enas that I have hooked the damn thing to, I don't read continuity anymore
[03:15:28]<ssi> and I don't know how I blew my fuse on enable... I must have screwed something up
[03:15:53]<ssi> however, I pulled enable to ground through a 150R resistor, and I measured 3.8V across the resistor
[03:15:57]<ssi> so 25mA
[03:16:40]<pcw_> at 3.8V from ground...
[03:16:52]<djdelorie> to turn on Q40 you have to sink enough to bring R160 down to ... 4.7V or so, so E around 4V
[03:16:58]<ssi> and for what it's worth, when I had enable connected to the '49, it pulled that line down to 4.8V or so, which wan't enough to enable the amps
[03:17:14]<djdelorie> that's 6.3V across R61 (560R) or 11 mA
[03:17:40]<djdelorie> barely
[03:18:00]<ssi> I wonder if I should separate the two enable lines from the two amps
[03:18:05]<ssi> and pull each separately through its own opto
[03:18:33]<djdelorie> you're still pushing the limits for that opto output. If you just short E, you're sinking 21.4 mA
[03:18:41]<djdelorie> that's 43 mA when tied
[03:19:02]<pcw_> Yeah that could kill it
[03:19:23]<djdelorie> I think you need a bigger transistor inbetween those
[03:19:31]<djdelorie> at least you'll only be blowing the transistor from now on :)
[03:19:33]<ssi> I can do that if necessary
[03:19:37]<ssi> just is a pain
[03:19:50]<pcw_> (plus whatever zapped your meter)
[03:20:23]<djdelorie> in theory, you could swap out R61 and R160 for bigger valued ones, but I don't know what hFE is for Q40 or what it's driving
[03:21:02]<ssi> I'm pretty sure I have some TIP121's lying around
[03:21:07]* djdelorie assumes you know what a darlington configuration is...[03:21:09]<ssi> I can probably deadbug one onto a terminal strip
[03:21:11]<ssi> yea I do
[03:21:19]<pcw_> Maybe a relay
[03:21:33]<ssi> relays and me don't get along so well right now
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[03:22:07]<pcw_> just saying maybe the transistor drives a relay
[03:22:13]<djdelorie> Rb between the opto and the new transistor should be (12 - 0.7) / 0.010 = 1.2k or more
[03:22:24]<ssi> I don't really have much in the way of relays right now
[03:22:51]<ssi> I have a bunch of 24VDC relays but I don't have a 24V source in the machine anymore
[03:23:03]<djdelorie> max Rb would be 12 / (0.043amps / hFE) I think
[03:24:15]<pcw_> I wasn't suggesting a relay, just that a relay in the drive might explain the high drive current
[03:24:17]<pcw_> on the /enable input input --> transistor --> relay on drive
[03:24:30]<ssi> I don't think so
[03:24:40]<ssi> I posted the scheme for it
[03:24:52]<ssi> but I think that was before you joined :)
[03:25:01]<ssi>http://www.prototechnical.com/~imcmahon/pwm50-scheme.jpg[03:25:01]<djdelorie> is this a PWM or a enable-once signal?
[03:25:14]<ssi> not sure what you mean
[03:25:23]<djdelorie> how often does the ENA signal change?
[03:25:38]<ssi> pretty sure it's tied to machine-enable
[03:25:38]<djdelorie> TIP121's hFE depends on frequency
[03:25:51]<djdelorie> less than 30 KHz ?
[03:25:59]<ssi> less than 0.0000001Hz?
[03:26:11]<ssi> on before machining, off when closing up for the day?
[03:26:34]<pcw_> on with machine on off when machine off or following error
[03:26:37]<djdelorie> ok, hFE is 3000, so max Rb is 3.3 Mohms
[03:27:26]<djdelorie> so 10k is probably a decent choice, 1mA through the opto and plenty to drive the E pin
[03:27:43]<ssi> yea that's what's in my drawing
[03:27:45]<ssi> putting it up for you
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[03:28:19]<ssi>https://p.twimg.com/AozWCHHCEAAgAzc.jpg:large[03:28:21]<ssi> thusly?
[03:28:34]<djdelorie> that's what I was thinking
[03:30:07]<ssi> I need to double check what transistors I can actually put my hands on
[03:31:04]<djdelorie> I think any transistor should do, you don't need much to get that to work.
[03:31:10]<djdelorie> well, any NPN transistor ;-)
[03:31:11]<ssi> yeah
[03:31:18]<ssi> ok I misremembered
[03:31:23]<djdelorie> biab - I need to work on my controllers for a while ;-)
[03:31:26]<ssi> it's TIP31 and TIP32 that I have
[03:31:39]<pcw_> a MOSFET would work as well from one of your direct FPGA outputs
[03:31:47]<djdelorie> no
[03:31:48]<ssi> trying to avoid using a GPIO
[03:32:09]<djdelorie> with a mosfet, you *also* need a resistor to discharge the gate when the opto shuts off
[03:32:19]<pcw_> right
[03:32:26]<ssi> djdelorie: hFE on the tip31 is only 50
[03:32:32]<ssi> djdelorie: 10k should still work in this case, yes?
[03:33:32]<djdelorie> 1mA * 50 = 50mA so a small Rb would probably be a good idea; 3.3K should work.
[03:34:02]<djdelorie> and hFE is 25 guaranteed for Ic=1A, that's the number to work with
[03:34:15]<ssi> ok
[03:34:30]<pcw_> or MOSFET if you have one
[03:34:39]<ssi> I definitely have BJTs
[03:34:43]<ssi> I don't know that I have MOSFETs
[03:35:04]<djdelorie> 22mA / 25 = 0.9mA or so, so a few mA through the opto is better
[03:35:18]<djdelorie> 10 / 3300 = 3mA
[03:36:25]<The_Ball> Jymmm, "You would be surprised how much heat even a 40W lightbulb can produce", yeah, my small office has three computer in it, gets unbearable after a while
[03:36:27]<djdelorie> with an N-mosfet, you don't need Rb but you do need Rgs, min 2k or so but much bigger is ok
[03:37:03]<djdelorie> when I got the air conditioner for my office, I added up all the electrical stuff in it, and it came to about 1000 watts. That's a *heater*.
[03:37:34]<djdelorie> ok, biab, and this time I mean it ;-)
[03:37:39]<ssi> thanks for the help
[03:37:42]<ssi> I'm gonna try to implement this
[03:38:14]<The_Ball> djdelorie, for sure, not sure how many watts a AC needs to cool 1000 watst on top of that
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[03:44:44]<The_Ball> I'm quite impressed though, this is a 7,6m x 7.6m metal shed witha 8KW AC unit. Yesterday was a fairly hot day and it was only using about 1200 watts peak when cooling it: http://wigen.net/shed/[03:45:13]<The_Ball> The roof has some very thin glass fiber mat insulation, but the walls are bare
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[04:04:24]<ssi> SWEET
[04:04:27]<ssi> ok enables are working
[04:04:39]<ssi> plus I'm using one of the opto enables to run my main enable relay
[04:04:41]<ssi> it was on a GPIO
[04:04:52]<ssi> and the ones I thought were dead aren't in fact
[04:05:10]<ssi> both axes jog
[04:05:15]<ssi> they could use some tuning for sure
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[04:07:59]<pcw_> Its a velocity mode drive so you will need good sized P, FF1 of one _If_ the units are right
[04:08:01]<pcw_> and probably 0 or very small D
[04:09:25]<ssi> right now it's 0 across the board except for a P of one
[04:09:33]<ssi> but I can see the X axis bounce a little bit as it stops
[04:10:01]<pcw_> thats going to be pretty sluggish
[04:11:11]<ssi> also I wasn't sure what to do with OUTPUT_SCALE and MAX_OUTPUT
[04:11:24]<ssi> the drive wants +/-8.5V, so I assume I need to use one of those to scale the output
[04:11:49]<pcw_> My preference is to set output scale so the the PID loop is normalized
[04:12:43]<pcw_> since this is a velocity mode drive you need to figure out how many IPS is full scale (10V)
[04:13:53]<pcw_> this is affected by the pot settings on the drive
[04:14:27]<ssi> yeah I recall reading that there's a "max speed" adjustment somewhere
[04:15:41]<ssi> ~2.3V is giving me 60ipm
[04:16:31]<pcw_> so roughly 4 ips full scale
[04:17:03]<ssi> sounds about right
[04:17:32]<ssi> trying to convince it to let me go faster than 1ip
[04:17:37]<ssi> 1ips
[04:17:47]<ssi> oh there it is
[04:18:54]<pcw_> so now for example if you set the PWM output scale to 4 (IPS) and FF1 to 1 you would have
[04:18:55]<pcw_> full scale with a commanded velocity of 4 IPS even without the PID loop terms
[04:18:56]<ssi> does 180 nicely
[04:19:33]<ssi> FF is feedforward?
[04:19:53]<pcw_> (I think of FF1 as centering the PIDs operating point about the current velocity)
[04:19:59]<pcw_> Yes FF
[04:20:12]<pcw_> =feedforward
[04:20:18]<ssi> 3ips is 7.15V
[04:20:37]<pcw_> dont slam into the stops
[04:21:02]<ssi> limits won't let me do that thankfully
[04:21:07]<ssi> that's why I made sure I had limits first
[04:21:08]<pcw_> are your limits working?
[04:21:10]<ssi> yep
[04:21:25]<ssi> I know because I just had to manually turn the screw to get Z back off the limit :)
[04:21:32]<pcw_> now is the time to reduce your FE for safety
[04:21:32]<ssi> and there's like 4" of extra bed beyond the limit
[04:21:47]<ssi> yea, about t hat
[04:21:55]<ssi> I tried to reduce it, and I got follow errors immediately
[04:21:59]<ssi> even with them set to 0.1"
[04:22:20]<frysteev_> yo
[04:22:23]<pcw_> well you have a lot of tuning to do
[04:22:40]<ssi> is there a pin or signal where I can look at the current fe as I'm jogging?
[04:22:52]<pcw_> yep
[04:22:56]<ssi> yea I found it
[04:23:16]<pcw_> halscope is what you need now
[04:23:32]<ssi> so it gets up to around .19 while jogging
[04:24:15]<ssi> ok what should I be scoping?
[04:24:17]<frysteev_> is the 96 i/o mesa board supported with emc?
[04:24:49]<pcw_> well consider with a P gain of 1 you need to get behind 10 inches for full speed
[04:25:13]<pcw_> (since the output scale is 10)
[04:25:36]<pcw_> frysteev_ 5I22? yes
[04:26:01]<frysteev_> cool
[04:26:01]<ssi> frysteev_: but it's a million billion dollars
[04:26:27]<frysteev_> well if i have to replace the cpu in the laser cutter thats when im going to get
[04:26:58]<ssi> pcw_: I had monkeyed with output_scale and max_output earlier... let me put them back to 10 which I think was the default on each
[04:27:28]<ssi> now it behaves real crazy
[04:27:32]<ssi> very very sluggish
[04:27:36]<ssi> I'm guessing that's the low P term
[04:28:13]<ssi> setting P to 10
[04:28:32]<ssi> now it's back to approx the responsiveness it was before
[04:28:58]<pcw_> so ramp up P (slowly) until it gets unstable
[04:29:20]<ssi> is there a way to attach it to a control in axis so I can tweak it without having to edit the ini and restart every time?
[04:29:49]<pcw_> yes, its called calibrate or something
[04:30:04]<frysteev_> i like the "or something" menu
[04:30:05]<ssi> aha
[04:31:17]<pcw_> its a little awkward making the values stick as I recall but better than edit/restart/shutdown
[04:31:24]<ssi> how will I know when it's getting unstable
[04:31:30]<ssi> (also should I be scoping something?)
[04:31:44]<pcw_> you can feel/hear it
[04:32:08]<ssi> it's starting to accel faster
[04:32:27]<pcw_> set your FE to 1/2 inch or something so if you lose control it FEs
[04:34:12]<djdelorie> ssi: darlington worked?
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[04:34:30]<pcw_> To really get good performance you may have to tune the drives (with the pots and the drive manual)
[04:34:40]<ssi> djdelorie: beautifully :)
[04:34:54]<djdelorie> now if only my problem was that easy to solve :-)
[04:35:44]<ssi> pcw_: up to 90 and it still feels about the same
[04:35:59]<ssi> pcw_: at 60ipm it's pretty good, 240ipm is smooth but the accel and decel feel really slow
[04:36:27]<pcw_> well maybe they slow in the ini file
[04:36:33]<ssi> I set them to 5
[04:36:44]<ssi> but I'm not sure if maybe there's a master max accel that I missed
[04:37:07]<pcw_> that is slow
[04:37:18]<ssi> default was like 2
[04:37:28]<ssi> 5i/s^2 is slow?
[04:37:31]<ssi> seems like that'd be pretty fast
[04:37:36]<pcw_> yes
[04:38:03]<ssi> I'll try 20
[04:38:21]<ssi> yes that's much better
[04:38:38]<ssi> at 4ips and 20i/s^2, it rather hums along :D
[04:39:48]<pcw_> Now you get halscope out and start looking at the FE
[04:40:41]<pcw_> or get some rest , it must be late there
[04:40:59]<ssi> nah, not really :)
[04:41:56]<pcw_> dont mess with it if your are getting tired, thats when bad mistakes happen
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[04:42:22]<ssi> yeah, I hear ya there
[04:42:32]<ssi> I'm not tired yet, I'm just struggling to understand how to use halscope :)
[04:42:45]<ssi> I also haven't found any instability yet due to P
[04:43:30]<ssi> ok maybe that's it?
[04:43:38]<ssi> after some moves, servo sounds like it's buzzing?
[04:43:48]<pcw_> well you're a better man than I as I'm getting sleepy...
[04:44:26]<ssi> aha, that was a subtle hint then ;)
[04:44:32]<ssi> I won't keep you, thank you so much for your help
[04:45:25]<pcw_> yes buzzing could be it (but there may also be resolver troubles due to the overdrive (dead spots) these will get in the way of the best tuning
[04:45:43]<ssi> ah right
[04:45:50]<pcw_> and with that
[04:45:52]<pcw_> g'nite
[04:45:53]<ssi> oh I bought some 2% resistors today... not really ideal but maybe I can match them
[04:45:56]<ssi> night :)
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[04:50:31]<Nick001> Are the tachs clean? that can make them buzz or growl
[04:52:24]<Nick001> ssi -are you there?
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[04:53:09]<ssi> yeah I'm here
[04:53:27]<ssi> Nick001: do you have one of these machines too?
[04:54:22]<Nick001> i have 3 of them with ab controls
[04:54:41]<ssi> nice
[04:55:04]<ssi> I'm pretty excited about getting this thing running... it should be a really nice machine
[04:55:06]<Nick001> I just got one converted to emc2 - still have a lot of finish wiring to do
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[04:55:58]<Nick001> If it hasn't been run into the ground, it will hold fantastic size and finish.
[04:56:07]<ssi> this one seems pretty tight
[04:56:29]<Nick001> I can still split a tenth and hold it good
[04:56:42]<ssi> so when I got it home, the way wipes were solid, crumbly, and glued to the bed
[04:56:56]<ssi> I cleaned them up... do you have any thoughts on how best to replace them?
[04:57:30]<Nick001> age hardened the rubber
[04:57:38]<ssi> yea
[04:57:40]<ssi> they're dust now
[04:58:15]<ssi> not sure if it's a part that I can obtain, or if I'll have to make something
[04:58:48]<Nick001> buy new ones - they're not that expensive and you need them to keep crud out from the liner under the carrage
[04:59:03]<ssi> can get them from hardinge?
[04:59:50]<Nick001> I type slow so bear with me. Hardinge still has them as I bought a set about 6 months age
[04:59:58]<ssi> no problem :)
[05:00:48]<Nick001> are you still using the HiAck amps for the slides?
[05:00:56]<ssi> yeah
[05:01:38]<Nick001> with the tachs or were you able to get rid of them?
[05:01:42]<ssi> I'm using the tachs
[05:01:51]<ssi> I have tried to change as little as possible mechanically about the machine
[05:02:20]<Nick001> the x axis may have to be cleaned or at least inspected.
[05:02:33]<ssi> I don't actually read the tachs into EMC at all, I just left them there for the velocity feedback to the amps
[05:02:49]<ssi> the x axis does have a little bit of a rattle to it
[05:02:53]<ssi> but I haven't started tuning it at all yet
[05:03:02]<Nick001> It has a habit of wicking oil into them and mess with the amps
[05:03:07]<ssi> what should I be looking for?
[05:03:12]<ssi> wicking oil into the tachs you mean?
[05:03:41]<Nick001> pull the brushes and see if there's an oil film
[05:04:27]<ssi> what are the consequences of the oil in the tach?
[05:05:19]<Nick001> Inside the cross slide assembly - ther's an oil mist from the turret motor and it can get into the front bearing of the tach
[05:06:42]<Nick001> It send the wrong voltage back and the slide can run rough - sometimes bounch, faults out and such
[05:06:58]<ssi> ahh
[05:08:03]<Nick001> I bought 2 of them brand new in 1980 and have been playing that game for many years -(
[05:08:43]<ssi> and yours have the allen bradley controls?
[05:08:47]<ssi> mine is the GE550
[05:08:50]<ssi> or was, before I tore it up :)
[05:09:42]<Nick001> saw the pics - I passed on them till Hardinge can up with an actual CNC
[05:09:57]<ssi> yeah I don't blame you
[05:10:05]<ssi> that was an antiquated monster
[05:10:05]<ssi> heh
[05:10:52]<Nick001> I was involved with NC till I bought a CNC bridgeport so I knew the difference
[05:12:36]<Nick001> The HArdinges worked great until the tachs started to act up and the one control started to goble boards faster than I wanted to repair them
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[05:15:07]<Nick001> That's when I started to look at replacing the control - EMC is the 3rd system in and thus is the furthest I've gotten with anything and it looks like this is whats going to work
[05:15:26]<ssi> have you worked with EMC before trying to convert the hardinge?
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[05:18:10]<Nick001> a little bit years ago - started with Centroid and that was a disaster, tried Mach3 - the control worked but they couldn't get the turret to work - so I went back to emc and they had made enough improvements in it. got it beyond a hobby thing
[05:18:31]<ssi> I thought the centroid conversions were supposed to be quite nice
[05:18:38]<ssi> they're certainly PRICED as though they would be!
[05:19:17]<ssi> I think I may try to use djdelorie's darlington trick to run my turret :)
[05:19:36]<djdelorie> what's the hFE of a turret ? ;-)
[05:19:52]<ssi> :D
[05:19:58]<Nick001> don't be fooled with that one - I have some old info on it at http://janick.com and scrol down to the DIY section
[05:20:13]<ssi> Nick001: I have a pretty good comprehension of how it needs to be done
[05:21:22]<ssi> oh I see, you're talking about the centroid :D
[05:21:27]<Nick001> I missed that one - any info on the web about it?
[05:22:12]<ssi> Nick001: it's just using a second transistor paired up with the optocoupler that's on one of my GPIO pins in a darlington config so I can switch more current than the opto alone would handle
[05:22:31]<ssi> djdelorie: so the turret is run by a pair of pneum solenoids, and they draw about 60mA each
[05:22:59]<djdelorie> time to order a pack of decent transistors? ;-)
[05:23:15]<ssi> djdelorie: will the TIP31s not handle it?
[05:23:16]<Nick001> Centroid burned abig hole in the turret encoder, burned out all the switched on X axis, couldn't run the spindle very well and on and on
[05:23:18]<ssi> cause I have a ton of those :)
[05:23:25]<Jymmm> ULN2803
[05:23:52]<ssi> Jymmm: SOUNDS BORING
[05:24:03]<djdelorie> 10mA out of the opto -> 60 mA on the turret, you need a minimum hFE of 6 but you need to adjust the Rb more carefully, that's all.
[05:24:16]<ssi> djdelorie: well the trick here is I'm not driving it with an opto
[05:24:22]<ssi> djdelorie: I'm driving it with a GPIO on the fpga
[05:24:27]<djdelorie> but if you're going to be doing this a lot, eventually you'll need more transistors, might as well buy ones with a higher hFE
[05:24:42]<ssi> and those GPIOs can source or sink 24mA I think
[05:24:55]<djdelorie> are you sure?
[05:25:01]<ssi> I know they can SINK 24
[05:25:05]<ssi> not so sure about the source
[05:25:13]<djdelorie> probably buffered from the fpga, then.
[05:25:14]<ssi> plus I'm using a '42 breakout, which has a 50r serial terminator
[05:25:21]<ssi> yes, they are I believe
[05:26:24]<djdelorie> well, if its 5v GPIO, you can probably put a 470R in series to limit to 10mA, make the gpio active high to drive the transistor to sink
[05:26:42]<djdelorie> 10mA * 25 hFE = 250 mA minimum
[05:26:42]<ssi> yeah that sounds reasonable
[05:27:49]<djdelorie> it's not a darlington though, just a switch
[05:28:04]<ssi> yeah I know
[05:28:06]<djdelorie> (not that it matters, as long as it works ;)
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[05:30:07]<ssi>https://p.twimg.com/Aozx9-TCEAIgOGF.jpg:large[05:30:10]<ssi> did I comprehend that correctly?
[05:31:07]<djdelorie> yes
[05:31:10]<ssi> :D
[05:31:46]<djdelorie> make sure the solenoid has a back-EMF diode on it
[05:32:00]<ssi> I'm not sure if it does on its own
[05:32:08]<ssi> can I just put one across E->C?
[05:32:40]<djdelorie> no, the diode absorbs the collapsing magnetic field's energy
[05:32:57]<ssi> I think you misunderstood me
[05:33:11]<ssi> I don't know if there's already a freewheel diode on the solenoid inside the machine
[05:33:17]<djdelorie> the diode needs to go from C to the V+ on the solenoid, in a "normally blocking" direction.
[05:33:23]<djdelorie> yeah, that diode. There usually is
[05:33:24]<ssi> er right
[05:33:42]<ssi> if it's on the drawing I'll assume it's there
[05:33:52]<djdelorie> otherwise, the C on the transistor will see a spike in the many-volts range when it shuts off
[05:33:53]<ssi> if not, I'll add it in the terminal blocks in the machine interface box
[05:33:57]<ssi> right
[05:34:09]<ssi> I'll put a scope on it and run it a couple times and see how it looks
[05:34:25]<djdelorie> if the transistor explodes, there isn't one ;-)
[05:34:50]<ssi> FOUND THE PROBLEM
[05:34:51]<ssi> lololol
[05:36:57]<frysteev_> did you turn it on?
[05:37:04]<ssi> frysteev_: turn what on
[05:37:13]<frysteev_> th computer
[05:37:22]<ssi> which computer?!
[05:37:31]<frysteev_> the one running emc
[05:37:35]<frysteev_> was that the problem?
[05:37:41]<ssi> no there was no problem
[05:37:44]<ssi> it was a rhetorical problem
[05:37:54]<djdelorie> "FOUND THE PROBLEM" was a joke reply to my "if the transistor explodes" line, I assume...
[05:38:07]<ssi> correctly :)
[05:40:06]<ssi> Nick001: you're lucky to get money back out of Ajax! (reading your story :))
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[05:42:55]<ssi> Nick001: your drives are different than mine
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[05:46:29]<ssi> maybe not, actually
[05:46:56]<ssi> oh yours has an AC servo spindle, eh
[05:46:59]<ssi> mine's just an AC motor
[05:47:28]<frysteev_> can you run 3 phase ac servos at a lower voltage?
[05:47:46]<ssi> I don't know anything about ac servos
[05:47:47]<Nick001> mine has a dc servo motor for the spindle
[05:47:56]<ssi> ah ok
[05:48:04]<ssi> mines 2hp 3ph motor
[05:48:10]<ssi> with the dual clutch and varispeed mess
[05:48:26]<Nick001> has a 100vdcpower supply in the back of the machine
[05:49:05]<djdelorie> frysteev_: if they're BLDC, yes. I don't know about other types of three-phase motors
[05:49:45]<djdelorie> mine run on anything from 24 to 160 VDC
[05:49:57]<ssi> Nick001: wow you have some neat machines in there
[05:50:45]<ssi>http://janick.com/cnc/shop/DCP_2288.jpg[05:50:47]<ssi> what is that machine
[05:50:55]<Nick001> I took Ajax to court and won everything. Ajax's uncle runs Centroid so he ponied up the cash to settle the judgement. Sad that it had to be handle that way but that's the type of person running ajax
[05:50:55]<djdelorie> in fact, I'm adding code to limit (in software) the voltage used, if the supply is higher than desired, to work around my EMI problem...
[05:50:56]<ssi>http://janick.com/cnc/shop/DCP_2289.jpg and that one
[05:51:31]<djdelorie> ssi: your machine is much bigger than mine...
[05:51:38]<ssi> djdelorie: what is yours?
[05:51:42]<frysteev_> mine are 480vac 3 phase
[05:51:54]<djdelorie>http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/[05:52:08]<djdelorie> it's about a 2x2 foot cutting area
[05:52:13]<Nick001> that's A Brown & Sharp PTC 60
[05:52:13]<ssi> aha
[05:52:31]<djdelorie> what I'm working on at the moment is the BLDC controller cards: http://www.delorie.com/electronics/bldc/[05:52:45]<djdelorie> stupid thing puts out enough EMI on the motor wires to reset itself
[05:53:20]<ssi> djdelorie: I realize you're an electronics guy, but you know mesa makes a BLDC controller right? :D
[05:53:41]<frysteev_> cool
[05:53:47]<djdelorie> lots of people do, but what's the fun in that?
[05:53:56]<ssi> djdelorie: I hear ya, I'm all about some DIY :)
[05:53:59]<djdelorie> mine takes stepper step/dir inputs :-)
[05:53:59]<frysteev_> mine ar older control techniques digitax
[05:54:05]<ssi> djdelorie: but everything mesa I've ever touched has been golden
[05:54:07]<djdelorie> and has two serial ports and a CAN interface
[05:54:41]<ssi> not to mention the fact that pcw bends over backwards to make sure we get our stuff working
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[05:55:32]<djdelorie> I just looked at it, it won't work. Limited to 50 volts. Mine does 450 volts.
[05:55:36]<ssi> ah
[05:55:49]<djdelorie> (well, 350 if you want to be "legal" about the trace spacing ;)
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[05:56:05]<djdelorie> I'm running it at 120 VDC at the moment
[05:56:08]<ssi> are you an EE by trade, or hobbyist
[05:56:16]<djdelorie> I have an ECE degree
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[05:56:19]<ssi> gotcha
[05:56:34]<djdelorie> used to design PC motherboards, back in the 80386 days
[05:56:51]<djdelorie> now I'm a embedded gcc maintainer for Red Hat
[05:56:54]<ssi> I've dabbled in electronics for years, but I'm mostly a scrub
[05:57:29]<ssi> I'm a java developer by trade, but these days they call me a "technical architect"
[05:57:39]<ssi> which means I don't write as much code, I mostly sit in meetings and tell people that they're idiots
[05:57:39]<djdelorie> so not only did I design the controller board, and not only am I writing the firware for it, but I also helped write the compiler tools I'm using for it
[05:58:05]<djdelorie> The woodworking, *that* is the hobby :-)
[05:58:08]<ssi> hehe
[05:58:18]<ssi> my hobby is building airplanes
[05:58:22]<ssi> but as I was doing that
[05:58:26]<ssi> I had a need to start making some parts
[05:58:31]<ssi> thus was born the machining hobby
[05:58:37]<ssi> and it sorta took on a life of its own
[05:58:40]<ssi> now I have ten machines
[05:58:44]<ssi> and four conversion projects
[05:59:04]<ssi> and my poor airplane project is languishing
[05:59:13]<djdelorie> I find that on any given project, half the time goes into the tools and jigs you need, and the other half goes into the project itself.
[05:59:19]<ssi> yes absolutely
[06:03:06]<djdelorie> fortunately, I like building tools and jigs :-)
[06:03:15]<ssi> I just like building stuff
[06:03:24]<ssi> tools are stuff too
[06:04:02]<frysteev_> i spent most of the evening soldering db15's
[06:04:22]<frysteev_> and all afternoon runing the power to my machine
[06:06:18]<ssi> I did pretty much all the wiring in the HNC between last night and today
[06:06:30]<ssi> got my motors and drives hooked up, axes are jogging
[06:06:44]<djdelorie> heh. I spent all afternoon building DSP evaluation boards for a customer, so I could work on the CNC machine tonight :-)
[06:07:01]<ssi> pretty much all I'm lacking in terms of wiring is a) getting these switches built to run the turret and b) figuring out how to wire the VFDs for control
[06:07:14]<djdelorie> what kind of VFDs ?
[06:07:37]<djdelorie> BLDCs are similar to VFDs...
[06:08:17]<ssi> one's a TECO 3hp, the other's a GE 1/4hp
[06:08:28]<ssi> inverter, sensorless vector drie
[06:08:30]<ssi> etc
[06:08:37]<ssi> for 3ph AC
[06:09:10]<djdelorie> yeah, my boards can't do sensorless. I can measure phase current, might be enough, but you really want to measure off-phase voltage for that.
[06:09:40]<djdelorie> I rely on hall sensors and encoders to run it, I need the encoder anyway to simulate a stepper
[06:10:43]<djdelorie> ok, back to the shop, let's see if these changes help... ;-) biab
[06:11:27]<frysteev_> i was running 480vac 3phase through conduit, it sucked
[06:12:32]<ssi> you got that damn laser running yet?!
[06:16:13]<frysteev_> no,
[06:16:24]<frysteev_> hoping to start getting the bed moving tommorow
[06:16:50]<frysteev_> getting the laser head on its stand is going to be fun, is weighs 3000lbs
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[06:17:35]<ssi> sounds like you need a forklift :
[06:17:36]<ssi> :)
[06:17:55]<frysteev_> better said then done,
[06:18:06]<ssi> hey I bought one two weeks ago
[06:18:07]<frysteev_> i have just under 8 feet
[06:18:21]<ssi> not only that, but I bought one that'll go under a 7' door!
[06:18:31]<ssi> specifically because my garage has 7' doors
[06:18:38]<ssi> and I just took out the doorway between my garage and basement
[06:18:42]<ssi> and opened it up to 54"
[06:18:50]<ssi> so I can carry my 9x42 mill out with the forklift :)
[06:19:19]<frysteev_> my shop is in a parking garage
[06:19:36]<ssi> yea I noticed that
[06:19:42]<ssi> not sure why you chose that particular location ;)
[06:20:40]<frysteev_> opurtunity and price,
[06:20:57]<frysteev_> also wasnt planning on getting this beast
[06:21:20]<frysteev_> i used to have a shop on the main floor here, with a loading dock :P
[06:26:27]<ssi> frysteev_: how old are you?
[06:27:41]<frysteev_> 29
[06:28:00]<ssi> figures :)
[06:28:28]<ssi> sorry that came out sounding condescending
[06:28:30]<ssi> didn't mean it that way
[06:28:32]<ssi> I'm 31...
[06:28:32]<frysteev_> :P
[06:28:41]<ssi> you have text mannerisms that seem contemporary to me
[06:28:50]<ssi> and it's hard to gauge people in this particular hobby :)
[06:28:50]<frysteev_> haha
[06:29:07]<frysteev_> theres one guy a corospond with
[06:29:22]<frysteev_> AND I GET EMAILS FROM HIM IN ALL CAPS<
[06:29:26]<ssi> heheh
[06:30:42]<ssi> but you're canadian, so that adds its own layer of weird ;)
[06:32:02]<frysteev_> shuhs you
[06:37:21]<ssi> ok so these transistor switches will work
[06:37:27]<ssi> but I gotta make the pins non-opendrain
[06:46:09]<ssi> k, wired
[06:46:13]<ssi> now let's test it!
[06:46:50]<ssi> WORKS
[06:46:51]<ssi> wooo
[06:48:39]<ssi> so that's everything but the VFDs
[06:48:48]<ssi> and I have exactly one spare GPIO (plus one full port)
[06:49:31]<ssi> so the spindle VFD will likely be run by one of the '49's PWMGENs
[06:49:44]<ssi> the coolant VFD I can either use as that last GPIO for just an on/off
[06:49:50]<ssi> or I could run it via a PWMGEN
[06:49:56]<ssi> I don't need varispeed on that obviously
[06:56:04]<alex4nder> hey
[06:56:55]<ssi> hey
[07:03:48]<alex4nder> how's it?
[07:03:53]<ssi> good
[07:04:00]<alex4nder> nice.
[07:04:00]<ssi> very close to making chips :)
[07:04:05]<alex4nder> cool
[07:04:14]<alex4nder> I'm halfway done with the foam mold for my concrete basin.
[07:04:21]<ssi> nice
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[07:35:04]<DJ9DJ> moin
[07:36:50]<djdelorie> it moves!
[07:37:04]<djdelorie> I just made it jog a little, but it did it :-)
[07:37:26]<djdelorie> however, EMI is giving the parallel cable fits, I'll have to fix that before I can do anything useful with it
[07:40:13]<DJ9DJ> gratulations
[07:40:22]<djdelorie> :-)
[07:40:45]<djdelorie> took me a few minutes to figure out I needed to tell EMC to "turn the machine on"
[07:41:41]<djdelorie> more fiddling tomorrow!!!
[07:41:51]<DJ9DJ> hihi
[07:42:02]<DJ9DJ> that was the first I figured out
[07:42:17]<DJ9DJ> testing my emergency brake button
[07:42:25]<DJ9DJ> emergency stop
[07:42:55]<DJ9DJ> and that turns off the maschine in EMC ;)
[07:43:48]<mrsun> gah i need to make a ballmill
[07:44:05]<mrsun> slash tumbler ...
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[09:32:34]<DJ9DJ> re
[09:40:23]<MrTrick> I'm wondering - should I be worried about my steppers overheating? How hot is too hot?
[09:43:09]<Jymmm> If you can't touch them, it's too hot.
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[09:45:33]<MrTrick> Right. Heatsink & fan, then?
[09:45:54]<Jymmm> No, idle current reduction in your stepper driver.
[09:49:23]<MrTrick> hmm... I'd have to look into it - not sure whether it does that.
[09:49:45]<Jymmm> What do you have?
[09:51:32]<MrTrick> a chinese 3040C router
[09:51:39]<MrTrick> The controller board: https://picasaweb.google.com/103939961494508322905/CNC3040TUnboxing#5654074930492738274[09:52:08]<Jymmm> what is the chip on it?
[09:52:18]<Jymmm> to the left of the red dip switches
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[10:01:25]<Jymmm> I can't tell fro the datasheet if it does or not.
[10:01:41]<Jymmm>http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1299258-ic-stepper-motor-drvr-2ph-25hzip-tb6560ahq-o.html[10:10:43]<archivist> MrTrick, I dont worry about hot motors
[10:10:56]<MrTrick> hmm, I don't have the board accessible at the moment
[10:11:26]<archivist> motors can be happy running at 60 deg c or more
[10:12:11]<MrTrick> It takes about an hour of continuous use to get from cold to 'a bit too hot to touch'.
[10:12:46]<archivist> that is ok
[10:13:09]<MrTrick> yeah - I think I'll add some heatsinks.
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[10:14:19]<archivist> machine frame is often the heatsink, depends on mounting though
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[10:16:08]mhaberler_ is now known as mhaberler[10:16:47]<MrTrick> not here - https://picasaweb.google.com/103939961494508322905/CNC3040TUnboxing#5654074837439104738[10:17:10]<MrTrick> each stepper mounts on the 4 long screws, but the spacer is plastic
[10:19:58]<archivist> remake spacer in aluminium
[10:21:51]<MrTrick> certainly possible. :-) The spindle is very solidly mounted in aluminium... has a fan too, and stays pretty cool.
[10:22:38]<Loetmichel> whrers the problem with plastic spacers?
[10:22:53]<archivist> thermal insulation
[10:23:04]<Loetmichel> oh, i see
[10:23:16]<Loetmichel> right, that could be a point
[10:23:34]<archivist> my cool axes are ally tubes
[10:23:37]<Loetmichel> nothing a little 50mm fan cant overcome ;)
[10:23:49]<archivist> the hot axis is on spacers
[10:24:04]<archivist> fans are noisy
[10:24:10]* Loetmichel hat made similar with the overheating x-stepper on the old Gantry fpor my boss[10:24:34]<Loetmichel>http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=3520[10:27:34]<archivist> my B axis (left top) was the bit people lean on ans has least cooling on the stand offs http://www.archivist.info/cnc/stage7/IMG_0247.JPG[10:27:50]<Loetmichel>http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4935[10:39:28] -!- tom1987 has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
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[11:56:55]<jthornton> anyone use ngcgui on a lathe?
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[12:34:25]<MrTrick> There's a problem with my limit switches - occasionally during operation, the circuit will trip one, two, or all three axes.
[12:35:42]<MrTrick> It's only for a very brief moment - eg just enough to trip emc2.
[12:36:17]<MrTrick> Even if I unplug the limit switches (N/O), it'll still happen occasionally.
[12:36:19]<JT-Shop> loose wire?
[12:36:33]<cncbasher> MrTrick> are your limit cables sheilded
[12:36:36]<MrTrick> err, not occasionally - at the same frequency as before.
[12:36:39]<JT-Shop> limits should always be on a N/C switch
[12:37:29]<JT-Shop> afternoon cncbasher
[12:37:50]<cncbasher> Hi JT
[12:38:19]<MrTrick> I agree in principle, but my switches are N/O only. May put something else on there later... Anyway, removing them from the circuit makes no difference to the frequency.
[12:38:33]<cncbasher> ncgui ?
[12:38:49]<cncbasher> i have it installed here
[12:39:28]<JT-Shop> do you use ngcgui on a lathe?
[12:39:36]<cncbasher> yea
[12:39:55]<JT-Shop> I just uploaded a taper OD sub to the forum
[12:40:15]<JT-Shop> yesterday
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[12:41:18]<MrTrick> so I'm not sure why it's tripping... I guess there's something going weird with my controller?
[12:42:40]<archivist> MrTrick, use a lower valu of pullup on the inputs
[12:42:54]<archivist> better noise immunity
[12:43:17]<MrTrick> true... I suppose I could probably desolder it from the circuit? https://picasaweb.google.com/103939961494508322905/CNC3040TUnboxing#5654074905002268002[12:43:26]<MrTrick> (and replace with a lower value)
[12:43:35]<MrTrick> Perhaps some capacitors across the switch inputs?
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[13:35:53]<Loetmichel> so, now just some cable ducts, a bit o of wiring, and the cutting of tow 19" rack shelves... then is the work done which should have been done friday evening ... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12964[13:38:28]<Valen>http://www.flickr.com/photos/37444355@N04/3446965634/lightbox/ looks sexy by the way
[13:45:12]<JT-Shop> cncbasher: I use the set Z option on the facing sub to get an accurate Z end of material
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[14:27:31]<joe9> i ran my latency test all night and it is 201273 on 25us thread and 20077 on 1ms thread.
[14:27:46]<joe9> and, the wiki says that the numbers are pretty good.
[14:33:37]<64MAA4HX9> 201273 sounds bad to me (unless you have an extra digit there) thats 0.2 ms or 8 base thread times
[14:34:19]<joe9> oh, sorry. yes, I have an extra digit there.
[14:34:26]<joe9> it is 201273
[14:34:30]<joe9> sorry, agai.n
[14:34:34]<joe9> it is 20173
[14:34:40]<joe9> bad typing day.
[14:34:53]<JT-Shop> that does look better
[14:37:00]<64MAA4HX9> so 40 usec basethread should be practical (25 KHz max step rate using the reset method)
[14:37:38]64MAA4HX9 is now known as P_C_W[14:38:28]<P_C_W> wow where did that name come from?
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[14:40:05]<frysteev_> feeling all caps today?
[14:41:21]P_C_W is now known as pedro[14:43:26]<JT-Shop> morning Peter
[14:43:34]<pedro> Morning
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[15:07:48]<JT-Shop> irons for the cheek pieces are almost done :)
[15:09:01]<pedro> cannon carriage?
[15:09:07]<JT-Shop> yes
[15:10:17]<pedro> what size ball? (I forgot)
[15:11:42]<JT-Shop> 1.75"
[15:11:50]<JT-Shop> golf ball size :)
[15:13:28]<Tom_itx> you could launch these then: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/hail/hail6.jpg[15:14:30] -!- WCMD [WCMD!63c373aa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.195.115.170] has joined #linuxcnc
[15:14:59]<WCMD> Does anyone know if the winding on a bldc motor affects the low speed cogging?
[15:15:03] -!- nots has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
[15:15:52]<WCMD> more specifically delta vs. wye(star) winding
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[15:17:42]<pedro> I would think cogging is more of a drive waveform thing
[15:18:58]<JT-Shop> you would have to launch them quick before your powder gets wet!
[15:19:25]<Tom_itx> just wrap in wax paper
[15:19:40]<pedro> if you do strictly HAL commutation you will have roughly 13% torque cogging
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[15:20:18]<pedro> are you launching iron cannonballs?
[15:20:41]<WCMD> so how can one use bldc motor's as servo's, when they stop they seem to fall into a set spot in between the poles.
[15:21:47]<pedro> because servos usually use sine commutation (next to 0 cogging)
[15:22:42]<WCMD> so essentially the "bldc" servo and a brushless ac servo are close to the same
[15:23:11]<WCMD> they use encoder's instead of hal sensors for stator orientation?
[15:23:27]<ssi> morn folks
[15:23:32]<pedro> A BLDC/AC/PMSM servo motor has no static torque like a step motor
[15:24:41]<pedro> they often use both (HALLs to know the rough rotor position to start, encoder for servo feedback and sine interpolation)
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[15:25:09]<ssi> I have this glorious day that I could be making headway on my machine
[15:25:17]<ssi> but I have to go to damn basketball game instead :(
[15:25:42]<WCMD> is someone making you go?
[15:25:52]<ssi> yes, my boss
[15:26:24]<WCMD> oh, they don't have to be your boss... its a great time to pursue a new career! NOT :)
[15:26:34]<ssi> yeah definitely a great time :)
[15:27:03]<ssi> it's just a political thing... the vp gave out a few tickets to this elite 8 game, and he chose me to go
[15:27:10]<ssi> there weren't enough tickets for everyone that wanted to go
[15:27:15]<ssi> so it would look really bad if I didn't go
[15:27:20]<pedro> sounds like fun, it was cold and rainy all day here yesterday so just stayed inside
[15:27:22]<pedro> didn't even go out to pet the sheep as they are no fun to pet when wet and smell like wet sweaters...
[15:27:36]<ssi> pedro: I guess they basically ARE wet sweaters at that point :)
[15:28:21]<ssi> my grandparents used to keep sheep... the one thing that I took away from that as a kid is that sheep are pretty dumb, and if you scare them they die
[15:28:43]<WCMD> its beautiful here, i almost feel bad when i'm in the basement setting up my mill and i hear the neighbor's out having fun, but then i remember how awesome the mill is and forget all about it. or i turn the sprinkler on point them towards the windows so i think its raining.
[15:29:15]<JT-Shop> lead cannon balls, golf balls, wadded up tin foil... we have several to pick from
[15:29:35]<pedro> Ha sheep are pretty smart (I would say they learn things as fast or faster than a dog)
[15:30:00]<ssi> well that doesn't bode well for me, because my dogs learn faster than I do
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[15:30:20]<WCMD> same here, my German Shepherd thinks she's smarter than me all the time
[15:30:34]<WCMD> i assertively put her in her place.
[15:30:34]<ssi> I have australian shepherds
[15:30:51]<WCMD> great dogs
[15:30:56]<ssi> yeah, they're wonderful :)
[15:31:03]<ssi> energetic, but wonderful
[15:31:11]<WCMD> i will have one for the rest of my life! she loves the shop also
[15:31:43]<WCMD> except the time she got wrapped up in the wires when i was prototyping, and pulled all the drives off the table
[15:31:48]<ssi> onoes
[15:31:56]<WCMD> i wasn't happy about that...
[15:32:28]<WCMD> are australians more long haired than germans?
[15:32:34]<ssi> a bit
[15:32:46]<pedro>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WKiwtpb6Z8[15:33:58]<isssy> nice diner :-p
[15:34:06]<ssi> pedro: hah
[15:34:32]<WCMD> pedro: thats awesome, better have one hell of a kennel then, maybe some kind of electromagnetic lock or something, or a deadbolt with a key
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[15:35:17]<ssi> WCMD: https://p.twimg.com/Ao18fDlCMAAS8LK.jpg:large[15:35:21]<WCMD> if only it could get you a beer when your working... i would have a sheep
[15:37:41]<WCMD> they look beautiful, are they both your's?
[15:37:47]<ssi> yep
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[15:37:58]<ssi> the white one came from a litter of my mom's
[15:37:59] -!- isssy has quit [Quit: Bye Bye]
[15:38:04]<WCMD> are two better than one. the wife and i are thinking about getting another for ours
[15:38:05]<ssi> his sister belongs to my neighbor
[15:38:15]<ssi> for aussies I think two are better for sure
[15:38:25]<ssi> they're SUCH hyper dogs, they have each other to entertain
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[15:38:37]<WCMD> mine has some serious separation anxiety
[15:38:41]<ssi> yeah
[15:38:43]<WCMD> when i leave
[15:39:35]<WCMD> so we are hoping another would help resolve that
[15:39:45]<ssi> it probably will help
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[15:44:31]<ssi> JT-Shop: can you give me some tips on how to start figuring out how to use classicladder for my turret?
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[15:52:27]<JT-Shop> better than that you can have my classicladder that I use on the Hardinge
[15:52:49]<ssi> hah sweet
[15:53:00]<ssi> I don't know anything about how it works
[15:53:11]<JT-Shop> bring the turret encoder into a wsum and classicladder handles the rest.
[15:53:12]<ssi> I did get my turret solenoids controlled via GPIO last night though
[15:53:18]<JT-Shop> cool
[15:53:45]<JT-Shop> first you need to load classicladder, do you know where my Hardinge page is?
[15:53:46]<ssi> hm what man page would describe wsum?
[15:53:51]<ssi> not off the top of my head
[15:54:00]<ssi> gnipsel.com?
[15:54:03]<ssi> I have that one bookmarked
[15:54:06]<JT-Shop> gnipsel.com go to cnc shop
[15:54:08]<ssi> yea that must be it
[15:54:10]<JT-Shop> yea
[15:54:24]<ssi> ah ok the configs are downloadable
[15:54:28]<JT-Shop> my wiring diagrams and configuration is there
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[15:55:25]<ssi> OH GOD
[15:55:39]<ssi> please tell me these classicladder files are meant to be edited with a gui tool
[15:56:03]<JT-Shop> you have to open them up in Axis
[15:56:05]<ssi> ok
[15:56:20]<JT-Shop> after loading classicladder
[15:56:27]<joe9> my latency is around 20,000ns normally (all night, with heavy load - maxed out cpu). I was doing something with ftp'ing to that computer, and it jumped to 200,000ns.
[15:56:32]<JT-Shop> after you load classicladder an editor shows up in Axis
[15:56:50]<joe9> is that how it works for others too.
[15:57:00]<JT-Shop> loadrt classicladder_rt
[15:58:11]<JT-Shop> loadusr classicladder --nogui hardinge.clp
[15:58:30]<joe9> probably related to this: http://codepad.org/yCOkMLF6[15:58:48]<JT-Shop> ssi: them two lines do the magic of loading classicladder
[15:58:55]<ssi> ok I'll try it
[15:59:00]<ssi> lemme put some pants on and head down
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[16:04:40]<ssi> ok I've got the classicladder editor up in axis
[16:04:44]<ssi> and your file's loaded
[16:04:49]<ssi> these little pictures don't mean much to me :D
[16:06:20]<ssi> I notice that you're doing loadusr halui, and I'm not
[16:06:22]<ssi> do I need to be?
[16:06:50]<ssi> ah I probably do need to when i start adding extra onscreen controls
[16:07:38]<pedro> joe9: still bad :-(
[16:07:40]<pedro> you might check SMART for bad sectors if you only get rare long latency hits
[16:08:15]<joe9> ok, thanks. i think it happened when I accessed a different partition (/boot) of the disk
[16:08:20]<joe9> which I normally don't.
[16:08:28]<JT-Shop> ssi: probably if you want the things it provides
[16:08:51]<JT-Shop> ssi: ladder is top to bottom and left to right
[16:09:32]<JT-Shop> all the inputs are read, all the logic is solved, all the outputs are updated...
[16:13:15]Cylly is now known as Loetmichel[16:13:57]<joe9> pedro, i repeated everything that I did, but now the latency results are around 9,000 ns.
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[16:25:11]<ssi> JT-Shop: works!
[16:25:25]<ssi> JT-Shop: I gotta screw with the numbering a bit, it seems to count the wrong way
[16:25:35]<ssi> t1 gives me 6, t2 gives me 5, t3 gives me 4
[16:25:47]<cradek> yep
[16:25:55]<ssi> I know turret top position can help me correct a general offset, but the backward thing makes me think I can tweak it in the wsum
[16:25:59]<ssi> maybe
[16:26:32]<cradek> I know there's something weird about mine too, but I don't remember if it's backward or off by one
[16:28:33]<ssi> my turret solenoid controls are the only GPIOs which are active high
[16:28:45]<ssi> I need to add a pullup to them cause when I shut down axis the turret comes up :)
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[16:38:02]<Loetmichel> re @ home
[16:39:14]<mazafaka> heh, I today have recorded the telephone call and was in police department. they have told me to wait for a physical threat to my health and then call for police
[16:43:36]<ssi> so does anyone have any tips on how I can control my spindle VFD using the analog outs on the 7i49?
[16:43:49]<JT-Shop> ssi: your magnet might not be in the right spot
[16:44:11]<ssi> JT-Shop: turret might not be in the right spot... you can index the top to the base four different ways I'm pretty sure
[16:44:25]<ssi> JT-Shop: but the running backwards thing suggests that I'm just mathing the encoder pins wrong :)
[16:44:54]<JT-Shop> yea, that sounds more plausible
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[16:48:37]<ssi> pedro: is it possible for the '49 to output anything besides just the one AOUT pin? it's looking like I'm going to need additional GPIO to control the fwd/rev enable lines on the vfd or something
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[17:06:33]<pedro> Well you could use the analog outs to drive a (MOSFET +10 on -10 OFF) but thats fairly far fetched
[17:07:01]<pedro> dont you have a free connector on the 5I23?
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[17:15:10]<asdfasd> can anyone help me with some advanced settings on emc2?
[17:15:23]<awallin> just ask.
[17:16:23]<asdfasd> installed and all settings made, working fine, but when I enable G64 it looks like the acceleration is much lower
[17:16:56]<JT-Shop> what do you mean you "enable" G64
[17:17:53]<asdfasd> G64 (continuous mode)
[17:17:53]<asdfasd> G64 tells the planner to sacrifice path following accuracy in order to keep the feed rate up. This is necessary for some types of material or tooling where exact stops are harmful, and can work great as long as the programmer is careful to keep in mind that the tool's path will be somewhat more curvy than the program specifies.
[17:17:53]<asdfasd> G64 Px.xxx (blend tolerance mode)
[17:17:54]<asdfasd> G64 now takes a parameter specifying the path following tolerance to be obeyed during blending. If you are in inch mode and program G64 P0.05
[17:18:34]<asdfasd> my units are mm, so I use G65 P0.1
[17:18:51]<asdfasd> ops G64 p0.1
[17:20:00]<JT-Shop> G64 Pxx will slow down to stay within your acceleration settings and the tolerance to your path that you put in P
[17:21:11]<asdfasd> it is somehow reducing the acceleration even on long straight lines like G0 commands
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[17:22:13]<asdfasd> where is not necessary at all, it looks like once G64 is ebabled it is using different settings for acceleration
[17:23:01]<asdfasd> same time on manual control the acceleration is high
[17:23:21]<cradek> you are right, it cuts the accel available to a single gcode segment in half
[17:23:28]<IchGuckLive> G64 with a P is better to use
[17:23:52]<IchGuckLive> asdfasd: otherwise you can get nice roundet corners insted of sharp eges
[17:24:14]<asdfasd> yes Im usign G64 p0.1
[17:24:32]<IchGuckLive> what cutter size mm ?
[17:24:34]<asdfasd> can I adjust the acceleration in G64
[17:24:38]<asdfasd> 3mm
[17:25:03]<IchGuckLive> Stepper mashine i asum
[17:25:25]<asdfasd> step/dir controller for servo motor, but works exactly as stepper
[17:26:06]<IchGuckLive> ah as a servo you can go realy high for the exelaration into your ini file
[17:26:31]<IchGuckLive> what are you looking for 6000mm/min ?
[17:26:47]<asdfasd> I made the settings for acceleration in my ini
[17:27:24]<asdfasd> but once enabled G64 the acceleration while running G code is lower, so I want to increase it to be the same as in my settings
[17:27:40]<asdfasd> yes i need feedrate 6 m/min
[17:28:02]<asdfasd> but it is a bit "too much smooth"
[17:29:53]<IchGuckLive> what is your MAX_VELOCITY 120 ? MAX_ACCELERATION 60
[17:30:43]<asdfasd> max velocoty 240
[17:30:50]<asdfasd> max acceleration 800
[17:31:16]<Mjolinor>http://abstrusegoose.com/286[17:31:27]<pedro> mm/s and mm/s^2?
[17:31:31]<Mjolinor> I am sure that site will stop you achieving anything this afternoon
[17:31:33]<IchGuckLive> this is ok but then the gcode has tiny parts below 2mm
[17:33:02]<asdfasd> still work perfect even with tiny parts
[17:33:11]<asdfasd> but too much smooth
[17:33:35]<IchGuckLive> asdfasd: so the real speed is then around 600mm/min at tiny 2mm pices
[17:33:59]<asdfasd> the real speed I can get is 6000 mm/min
[17:34:05]<asdfasd> feedrate
[17:34:20]<IchGuckLive> max but not in G-code
[17:34:25]<asdfasd> in G code
[17:34:32]<IchGuckLive> asdfasd: Superkabel i asum Germany
[17:36:34]<IchGuckLive> what do you realy mean with smooth the part roughness
[17:36:50]<asdfasd> smooth movemets
[17:36:52]<mazafaka> Mjolinor: http://xkcd.com/ and e.g. http://xkcd.com/730/ for the scheme-lovers, and http://xkcd.com/162/ for each-other lovers
[17:36:57]<asdfasd> too much smooth
[17:37:08]<asdfasd> when aproaching corner decelerate too early
[17:37:27]<mazafaka> what if you assign lower acceleration and speed?
[17:37:50]<IchGuckLive> lower speed will increase the aceleration
[17:38:35]<asdfasd> when moving manually or G code whith G61 then acceleration is as per settings in my ini file
[17:38:49]<mazafaka> then assign actual, high speed but low acceleration
[17:39:19]<asdfasd> still same problem
[17:39:30]<asdfasd> acceleration on G64 is always lower
[17:39:46]<mazafaka> what if you use the option which defines maximal distance machine declines from the trajectory?
[17:39:53]<asdfasd> ot looks like this is set somewhere else
[17:40:31]<asdfasd> do you mean G64 p- Q- ?
[17:40:39]<mazafaka> yeah, it seems so
[17:40:45]<asdfasd> same
[17:40:48]<asdfasd> no difference
[17:41:00]<IchGuckLive> asdfasd: what is the axis scale ?
[17:41:04]<asdfasd> 1
[17:41:44]<asdfasd> I read somewhere that the trajectory planner use cubic function
[17:41:46]<IchGuckLive> i run a simulation on your data with your numbers and got 4500mm/min constant
[17:42:13]<asdfasd> and somewhere can be set cubic function constants
[17:42:20]<asdfasd> but I dont know where and how to do it
[17:42:24]<mazafaka> asdfasd: try to spend less time in doubts. What if you use exact path following and manually round the corners? You will have later found out hove to perform such a task just by occasion.
[17:43:02]<IchGuckLive> asdfasd: no in the ini how many steps per unit
[17:43:13]<asdfasd> G code is generated by another software, all curves are short lines
[17:43:19]<asdfasd> so I have to use trajectory planner
[17:43:38]<asdfasd> G 64 increase a lot the speed
[17:44:33]<IchGuckLive> asdfasd: so if your space from the G-code generator is only by 0.1 then you can run G64 pure
[17:44:38]<asdfasd> there is no other way to get 6 m/min feed rate on short lines
[17:45:07]<asdfasd> yes it work really nice
[17:45:20]<asdfasd> the only problem is that it reduce the acceleration
[17:45:31]<IchGuckLive> mut keep in ind longer corner ways will fail the contur
[17:45:48]<asdfasd> yes I know that
[17:45:53]<asdfasd> it is not a problem
[17:46:17]<asdfasd> the problem is when you are routing plastic you should keep the feedrate high most of the time
[17:46:23]<asdfasd> otherwice start melting
[17:46:24]<IchGuckLive> then this is max you can reatch
[17:46:37]<JT-Shop> mmm homebrew and Amish cheese... then a nap
[17:46:44]<asdfasd> and now decelerate too early
[17:47:24]<IchGuckLive> can you upöload a short example of the code
[17:47:59]<asdfasd> G61
[17:48:07]<asdfasd> G0 X100
[17:48:16]<asdfasd> G0 X200
[17:48:21]<asdfasd> G0 X100
[17:48:24]<IchGuckLive> this is not short
[17:48:48]<IchGuckLive> ad 2 more lines
[17:48:54]<asdfasd> this G code is executed with acceleration as per ini file
[17:48:55]<JT-Shop> pastebin or code something is a better way to post more than 2 lines
[17:49:11]<asdfasd> but another G code
[17:49:29]<asdfasd> G64
[17:49:33]<asdfasd> G0 X100
[17:49:37]<asdfasd> G0 X200
[17:49:39]<IchGuckLive> ok i will give you a example one moment
[17:49:43]<Jymmm> asdfasd: Use http://codepad.org pleasse
[17:49:48]<asdfasd> this is executed with lower acceleration
[17:49:52]<JT-Shop> thanks Jymmm
[17:51:05]<asdfasd> Im sorry but I almost give up
[17:52:30]<asdfasd> cradek: you say that it cuts feedrate in half
[17:52:32]<asdfasd> why is that?
[17:52:39]<asdfasd> can I change it
[17:53:02]<Jymmm> asdfasd: Anything more than 2 or 3 lines is best to paste it somewhere and provide a link to it.
[17:53:08]<Jymmm> asdfasd: Otherwise it
[17:53:11]<Jymmm> just begins
[17:53:14]<Jymmm> to start
[17:53:17]<Jymmm> looking like
[17:53:21]<Jymmm> this. And
[17:53:25]<Jymmm> this begins
[17:53:28]<Jymmm> to get
[17:53:31]<Jymmm> a bit
[17:53:35]<Jymmm> annoying at
[17:53:41]<Jymmm> times.
[17:54:08]<IchGuckLive> asdfasd: http://codepad.org/EYxA0BaP[17:54:22]<IchGuckLive> this gives you a 1 mm break
[17:55:14]<asdfasd> the problem exist even on G0 commands
[17:55:35]<asdfasd> it is moving like S curve acceleration profile
[17:55:38]<IchGuckLive> asdfasd: what is your cam software you can force the post to split long lines to 5mm parts
[17:56:06]<IchGuckLive> G0 is not what you shoudt use always G1 on 6m/min
[17:56:17]<asdfasd> yes I can do longer lines, but the acceleration is reduced on all lines, even very long G0
[17:56:58]<asdfasd> on G0 is noticable
[17:57:05]<asdfasd> I can see how is moving
[17:57:05]<IchGuckLive> thats what you dont understand you ned to overcame this by forcing G0 to G1 and shorter lines
[17:57:26]<IchGuckLive> run the example in simulation mode
[17:57:34]<JT-Shop> asdfasd: I just ran a test program (Ihave a built in cycle timer) with all the G6x and all take the same time for me
[17:57:48]<asdfasd> the problem is not in the time
[17:58:02]<asdfasd> the problem is that if the machine reduce the acceleration too much
[17:58:16]<IchGuckLive> you cant run at exact stop on full speed
[17:58:18]<JT-Shop> acceleration and time are related
[17:58:19]<asdfasd> then decelerate early and start melting the plastic
[17:58:53]<JT-Shop> sounds like your machine does not have enough acceleration to cut plastic
[17:58:54]<asdfasd> it should accelerate and decelerate as per settings
[17:59:26]<asdfasd> it have the acceleration, but when I enable G64 it is reducing the settings
[17:59:32]<asdfasd> I dont understand why
[18:00:03]<JT-Shop> when I use G64 Px on my plasma it has a higher average rate of speed when cutting short lines
[18:00:12]<asdfasd> yes
[18:00:15]<asdfasd> exactly
[18:00:28]<asdfasd> but it is reducing the acceleration
[18:00:31]<IchGuckLive> asdfasd: 0.05 is better then 0.1
[18:00:42]<asdfasd> the accuracy is not big deal
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[18:01:23]* JT-Shop doesn't have a clue anymore[18:01:53]<IchGuckLive> me 2 its working here i drive with 5800mm/min into the last 2mm
[18:02:18]<IchGuckLive> my blets whoudt fly at this stop rate
[18:02:34]<JT-Shop> well my plasma has 125 for max acceleration
[18:02:44]<JT-Shop> inch
[18:02:51]<asdfasd> here the movements are very very smooth
[18:03:47]<asdfasd> and when decelerate too early it is melting a little bit
[18:04:09]<asdfasd> then when increase the speed is fine again
[18:04:37]<JT-Shop> the control will decelerate in time to stop at the end of the next move or something like that
[18:04:53]<IchGuckLive> play with your length data this is all i can say
[18:05:08]<asdfasd> lenght data?
[18:05:10]<JT-Shop> higher max acceleration if possible will shorten the deceleration distance
[18:05:49]<asdfasd> I can increase more the acceleration but then it is shaking too much on manual control
[18:05:54]<IchGuckLive> if the corner is at x100 make a move to 95
[18:07:25]<asdfasd> no mater where you make the move
[18:07:32]<IchGuckLive> as i did in test gcode this is well more then just the edge data im on ProE i can give a over,or underrun th the Gcode
[18:08:31]<asdfasd> Im sorry I dont understand the last one
[18:08:55]<IchGuckLive> if i do underrun it gives me inside contour 2more lines on more then the given data overrun does beond the line for zigzag
[18:09:12]<JT-Shop> beer and cheese are done now for the nap...
[18:10:08]<IchGuckLive> also heekscad can dio this
[18:10:56]<JT-Shop> sounds like the machine is too slow and frail to do what you ask it to do... or I don't have a clue in the world what your saying
[18:11:07]<asdfasd>http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Simple_Tp_Notes[18:11:37]<asdfasd> I think there is something more that need to be set
[18:11:45]<JT-Shop> wow that is old
[18:12:02]<asdfasd> but Im too new to emc
[18:12:26]<IchGuckLive> im of by have a nice sunday
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[18:12:35]<JT-Shop> Here are some notes on how I (awallin) think it all works. (started this on 25Jul2006 - hopefully I or someone else can continue until the trajectory controller is well documented/understood)
[18:14:01]* JT-Shop goes to take a nap now[18:14:26]<asdfasd> anyway
[18:14:29]<asdfasd> I give up
[18:14:48]<asdfasd> may be abnother day I will try again
[18:14:56]<asdfasd> thanks to all
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[18:37:34]<mrsun> hehe my little 0.37kw spindle geared from 2700rpm to 4000rpm didnt like to cut 0.5mm deep at 63mm wide with a face mill ;P
[18:41:28]<archivist> methinks you should use a milling power calculator
[18:42:42]<mrsun> archivist, it was an error in the setup =)
[18:42:52]<mrsun> at 0.2mm and half the width of the cutter i cut it fine =)
[18:43:01]<mrsun> archivist, but yes, i should use one =)
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[18:58:59]<asdfasd> its me again
[19:00:09]<asdfasd> I did more tests, and definitely the acceleration is cut on half, when I doble the settings then work properly on G64 but it is too much for jogging or G61
[19:00:35]<asdfasd> how to make them equal
[19:16:40]<cradek> you can't make them equal. for blended segments to not exceed the accel constraint, the available accel for a single segment is half.
[19:18:33]<asdfasd> where is set that?
[19:18:43]<cradek> where is what set?
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[19:19:18]<asdfasd> the available acceleration for a single segment when blended speed is used
[19:19:34]<cradek> it is half the max accel configured in your ini file
[19:20:26]<asdfasd> when I set in my ini acceleration 800, then it is normal for jogging and G61 but it is slow for G64
[19:20:34]<asdfasd> I just tried to set 1600
[19:20:49]<asdfasd> now is normal for G64 but it is too much for jogging
[19:21:25]<cradek> yes I understand what you are saying
[19:21:38]<mrsun> hmm, i need to make an angle shelf for the mill
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[19:22:11]<asdfasd> cradek : god blest you - I think you are the only one understanding me :)
[19:22:13]<Mjolinor> i found a use for old socks
[19:22:26]<Mjolinor> just fit inside my home made dust extractor
[19:22:47]<Mjolinor> bin full of ol dsocks full of sawdust
[19:24:44]<asdfasd> cradek: are you sure that it is impossible to make it work with equal acceleration?
[19:25:17]<cradek> in g64 mode program some moves back and forth: g0 x25, g0 x0, g0 x25, g0 x0, etc
[19:25:38]<cradek> you will see full acceleration
[19:25:48]<asdfasd> no
[19:25:52]<asdfasd> it is not full
[19:26:08]<fragalot> it is full "acceleration"
[19:26:09]<fragalot> not speed
[19:26:16]<cradek> you do not understand, and you have not done this experiment
[19:26:25]<asdfasd> I done it
[19:27:07]<cradek> reversion motion, back and forth, in g64 mode
[19:27:20]<asdfasd> actually one way only
[19:27:27]<asdfasd> x0 to x100
[19:27:27]<cradek> yes I know
[19:27:31]<cradek> this is the whole point
[19:27:50]<cradek> for blended reversing moves to not exceed the acceleration constraint, each must use only half the acceleration
[19:28:03]<cradek> do the test and you will see
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[19:32:52]<asdfasd> ok just made the test
[19:33:01]<asdfasd> acceleration set to 1600
[19:33:18]<asdfasd> when jogging the machine is shaking - too much acceleration
[19:33:32]<asdfasd> in MDI I typed g0 x200
[19:33:49]<cradek> mdi moves aren't blended
[19:33:53]<asdfasd> moving with half acceleration and machine is not shaking
[19:34:00]<cradek> put the reversing back and forth motion in a gcode program and run it
[19:34:09]<cradek> monitor the acceleration with halscope
[19:34:15]<cradek> you will see all 1600 acceleration used
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[19:40:05]<pedro> any hope of using NURBs? that would avoid G64
[19:41:54]<asdfasd> I cant find acceleration in halscope
[19:43:04]<pedro> I think you have to create it with the d/dt comp
[19:43:19]<cradek> yeah you could put a ddt on motion.current-vel
[19:43:30]<cradek> or just eyeball the slope of it
[19:43:52]<cradek> or just believe me - I did the test here
[19:45:01]<asdfasd> another test in mdi - G61 G0 - executed with high accel, then G64 G0 executed with lowered accel
[19:45:19]<cradek> yes I know!!
[19:49:44]<asdfasd> I wastn able to make d/dt
[19:49:53]<asdfasd> but Im looking the slope
[19:50:22]<asdfasd> half acceleration
[19:50:52]<cradek> then you did not make and run the gcode program I suggested
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[19:51:48]<asdfasd> no I dindt because I dont have that situation on practice
[19:52:27]<asdfasd> Im working with G code with G64 and manual joging
[19:52:39]<asdfasd> and I wanted to make it work with same acceleration
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[19:54:34]<cradek> I am trying to help you understand why it works the way it does, but if you don't want that understanding, that is fine
[19:54:56]<asdfasd> :)
[19:55:02]<asdfasd> I almost undestand it
[19:55:07]<asdfasd> but I wanted to change it
[19:55:31]<cradek> it is important that the constraint is not violated for ANY gcode you might write. if you write reversing gcode and study the results you will see that full acceleration is used there.
[19:55:39]<asdfasd> for example: when jogging use half acceleration
[19:55:52]<cradek> for you to say you don't usually write reversing gcode does not change this
[19:56:55]<asdfasd> ok can I make it use half acceleration for jogging too?
[19:57:05]<cradek> I think you still don't understand
[19:57:22]<cradek> for some motions in gcode, blending uses full acceleration
[19:57:33]<cradek> you think it only EVER uses half, which is wrong
[19:57:42]<cradek> I was trying to show you those kinds of motions
[19:58:06]<cradek> brb
[19:58:09]<asdfasd> hm...
[20:03:24]<asdfasd> ok now I made the test
[20:03:39]<asdfasd> first and last movement are made with half accel
[20:04:09]<asdfasd> all other forward-backward between them are made with full accel
[20:06:14]<joe9> when I started an rsync process to that box: http://codepad.org/SIPEXP5D[20:06:30]<joe9> latency jumped from 5622 to 166113
[20:06:37]<joe9> and then back to 6274
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[20:06:43]<joe9> is that bad?
[20:07:39]<joe9> and, the overruns went to 1
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[20:11:12]* JT-Shop goes to drink beer and shoot guns... well maybe not in that order[20:16:03]<DJ9DJ> gn8
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[20:27:10]<raynerd> anyone used a drag engraver?
[20:27:38]<asdfasd> me
[20:28:17]<asdfasd> can I help you
[20:30:44]<fragalot> I should get me one of those at some point
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[20:36:03]<asdfasd> credek: can I limit the acceleration for manual jogging only?
[20:42:39]<asdfasd> now with higher acceleration work great and do not melt the plastic anymore, but it is shaking badly while jogging
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[20:50:46]<raynerd> sorry, daughter woke up ! Yes, drag engraver, I can`t afford one but considering how to make one. Is it simply an insert for the diamond tip and then this rests on some sort of shoulder and a stiff spring at the rear so the tip is under compression?
[20:51:34]<asdfasd> here is photo of my DIY drag center
[20:51:52]<asdfasd> it is not diamond tipped but you may get the idea
[20:52:07]<asdfasd>http://www.album.bg/nik80/images/27220766/[20:52:57]<asdfasd> I used HSS for the tip, it is good enough for soft metals
[20:53:48]<raynerd> humm, that isn`t opening?!
[20:54:18]<raynerd> no...open now sorry
[20:54:49]<raynerd> can you please explain how that works then?
[20:55:04]<raynerd> which part is held in spindle ?
[20:55:12]<alex4nder> hey
[20:55:22]<raynerd> Or is there a second part to it that that pushes into?
[20:55:41]<asdfasd> the outside diameter is 6mm where I can fit it in the collet of my spindle
[20:55:58]<asdfasd> inside is 3mm hole
[20:56:03]<raynerd> ok
[20:56:06]<asdfasd> where is fitted the tip
[20:56:21]<raynerd> How is the spring not pushing off the top?
[20:56:24]<asdfasd> the tip is moving tight without backlash
[20:57:12]<asdfasd> when you tighten the collet you have to make sure the spring is pushing inside
[20:58:08]<raynerd> adfasd: call me thick but in my opinion the spring is just going to pop off the end and also how is the spring even bearing any pressure down on the tip?
[20:58:37]<asdfasd> Im sorry my english is not good enough
[20:59:00]<raynerd> ok, no worries
[20:59:12]<asdfasd> when you push it inside the collet
[20:59:27]<asdfasd> the spring is going to the bottom
[21:00:39]<raynerd> bottom of where?
[21:00:54]<raynerd> have you any pictures of it in pieces?
[21:02:26]<asdfasd> bottom of the collet holder
[21:02:53]<asdfasd> I dont have more photos
[21:04:45]<asdfasd> if you have long tool
[21:04:53]<asdfasd> you push it inside the collet
[21:05:09]<asdfasd> and then it touch the bottom of the collet holder
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[21:05:41]<asdfasd> same happening here with the spring, you push it inside until you load the spring
[21:05:57]<asdfasd> when you tighten the collet the spring is loaded
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[21:06:24]<asdfasd> and you may leave few milimeters for movement
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[21:10:30]<raynerd> ok, I see
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[21:11:56]phantone is now known as phantoxe[21:12:03]<asdfasd> where I can attach photo?
[21:13:31]<Tom_itx> imagebin
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[21:20:56]<asdfasd>http://imagebin.org/205132[21:21:32]<asdfasd>http://imagebin.org/205134[21:24:25] -!- pedro [pedro!~chatzilla@ip-66-80-167-54.sjc.megapath.net] has joined #linuxcnc
[21:25:52]<asdfasd> cradec: are you still here?
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[22:44:44]<djdelorie> ok, how do I tell linuxcnc that the current position *is* "home" ?
[22:45:10]<cradek> does your machine have home switches and/or index pulses?
[22:46:12]<djdelorie> it has hard limit switches at each end, combined into a single signal back to the pc
[22:46:25]<djdelorie> i.e. one "limit" signal per axis
[22:46:45]<cradek> are you using them as home switches?
[22:47:00]<cradek> (the same switch can be home and limit both)
[22:47:02]<djdelorie> the controllers won't let the motors go past the limit switches
[22:47:10]<djdelorie> so they *can* be used as home switches
[22:47:12]<cradek> oh, dang
[22:47:22]<cradek> but it'll fault when you touch one
[22:47:29]<djdelorie> the controller keeps track of the "desired" position accurately, but refuses to make the "actual" position go past the limits
[22:47:47]<cradek> you lost me
[22:48:08]<cradek> let me answer your question without trying to understand everything first:
[22:48:27]<cradek> if you have all your homing velocities set to zero, when you home, no motion will occur, and the current location will be home.
[22:48:31]<djdelorie> when the axis hits a limit switch, the motor stops. If the pc sends more step pulses, the motor remembers them but won't travel there. If the step/dir brings the "desired" location back between the limit switches, the motor tracks again
[22:49:02]<cradek> but if you have home switches at all, that's not the answer or procedure you want, because the machine should home itself, not you
[22:49:05]<djdelorie> i.e. the physical motor is confined to the limits, but the "virtual motor" can go past them
[22:49:32]<cradek> ok, that's utterly bizarre, not sure if you could home with that or not. possibly.
[22:49:37]<djdelorie> one could think of it as a virtually infinite workspace, with home switches at each end
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[22:50:29]<cradek> a stepper drive can't stop instantly and not lose position. you must either travel somewhat past the limit switch OR lose position and require rehoming
[22:50:34]<djdelorie> oh wait, I think I know what happened. The controller needs to know which switch is which, my bad. Still, it started homing itself
[22:50:42]<djdelorie> heh. Not using a stepper drive :-)
[22:51:00]<cradek> ok, you were talking about step pulses
[22:51:10]<djdelorie> it simulates a stepper. The motors are BLDC
[22:51:11]<cradek> remember I have no idea what you have unless you tell me!
[22:51:31]<djdelorie> I built three of these: http://www.delorie.com/electronics/bldc/[22:51:32]<pedro> even a step servo will (or should) throw a FE if you stop instantly
[22:51:34]<cradek> can you turn off the extra smarts?
[22:51:45]<djdelorie> they accept step/direction pulses from the PC, but drive the BLDC+encoder smartly.
[22:51:53]<djdelorie> Yeah, I think I just need to run the limit switch configuration page again
[22:52:19]<ssi> BACK
[22:52:22]<ssi> woops caps :D
[22:52:28]<djdelorie> still, it would be REALLY nice if there were an obvious button in the linuxcnc GUI that says "home is here, trust me" that zeros out the XYZ display too
[22:52:34]<djdelorie> ssi: hi!
[22:52:38]<ssi> hi!
[22:52:38]<cradek> with a dumber drive and encoder feedback to linuxcnc, you could home to index
[22:52:54]<djdelorie> with a dumber driver, the motors wouldn't work at all
[22:52:56]<cradek> "home is here" and "zero the xyz display" are two different concepts
[22:53:12]<cradek> there is a button for each one
[22:53:12]<djdelorie> I know, I still want the button :-)
[22:53:30]<cradek> it makes no sense to combine them
[22:53:35]<ssi> home is where the tool is
[22:53:38]<djdelorie> I did the touch-off button on all axes
[22:54:07]<djdelorie> all I wanted was to run a test program from the examples, I'm trying to figure out all the hoops I have to jump through first ;-)
[22:54:22]<djdelorie> ssi: I fixed yesterday's problems. It's jogging on all axes.
[22:54:24]<cradek> "home" is typically established by the machine (switches/index), "workpiece origin" is set by the user according to the current tool location using touch off
[22:54:26]<ssi> djdelorie: good!
[22:54:36]<ssi> djdelorie: I got my turret working!
[22:55:10]<djdelorie> ended up rewiring the motor power supply for half the voltage at twice the amps, that cut the EMI way down. Then changed the termination resistors from 36k to 1k on the parallel port interface. Cleaned it all up
[22:55:40]<djdelorie> cradek: where's the "workpiece origin" button? How do you tell the machine to not need to home?
[22:56:05]<pedro> a common mode choke on the U/V/W helps a lot with noise
[22:56:16]<cradek> djdelorie: "touch off"
[22:56:55]<djdelorie> I clicked on "touch off" for all three axes (I assume I only needed to do it once) but it still complains that "you can't run without homing"
[22:57:02]<djdelorie> pedro: I ordered some, they're on the way ;-)
[22:57:15]<djdelorie> that was Friday's discussion on the #geda list :-)
[22:57:30]<pedro> just a biggish ferrite toroid will do
[22:58:20]<cradek> djdelorie: generally you home first, then touch off. homing "puts" all your workpiece origins back in the right place on the machine.
[22:58:30]<djdelorie> that's what I ordered, I don't happen to have any here.
[22:58:37]<ssi> pedro: so there's no practical way to run the VFD completely from the '49, eh
[22:58:43]<cradek> and you can't touch off without homing in the first place...
[22:58:52]<ssi> I only have one free GPIO at the moment, and I figured that would run my coolant VFD
[22:58:52]<djdelorie> ok, I'll go try reconfiguring the switches. What's the right pin definition for my setup?
[22:59:07]<ssi> I can probably free up one more GPIO, but I'd guess I need two in order to run the spindle
[22:59:18]<ssi> one fwd, one rev
[22:59:41]<cradek> if you have one signal per axis that's a limit at both ends, hook it to pos-limit, neg-limit, and home-sw
[23:00:00]<cradek> set homing to head to whichever end you want - the safest end
[23:00:04]<ssi> hrm or maybe I can use two GPIOs to run the fwd/rev, and then use an analog out as a digital signal to run coolant
[23:00:09]<ssi> not sure how I'd make hal do that though :/
[23:01:05]<pedro> Dont you have a free 5I23 connector?
[23:01:18]<ssi> yes, but I'm saving it :)
[23:01:40]<ssi> I don't yet know how much IO I'll need for a front panel, and I might end up going sserial for that
[23:01:58]<djdelorie> cradek: in terms of the stepconf wizard, is that "both limits + home" ?
[23:02:07]<ssi> plus finding a place to mount another 7i42 is a hassle
[23:02:14]<cradek> yes sounds like
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[23:19:54]<djdelorie> reconfiguring got me past that, but now it raises the Z axis until the switch, backs off, then gives me a "joint 2 on limit switch error"
[23:20:55]<djdelorie> I bet I need to set a non-zero "home value" for that axis in stepconf, yes?
[23:21:22]* djdelorie goes back to the shop...[23:35:28]<ssi> ok so I need to figure out how to attach the coolant-flood signal to switch a pwm from 0 to full on
[23:35:43]<cradek> djdelorie: yeah you need HOME_IGNORE_LIMITS, and the homing offsets set correctly so you don't end up still on the limit switch when you're done
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[23:49:43]<djdelorie> IT WORKS!!!
[23:50:11]<cradek> yay!
[23:50:19]<djdelorie> cradek: the trick was to note that it jogged in the positive direction to home, so I set the home switch location to 4, and the "home" to 3.5 so it backed off
[23:50:42]<djdelorie> my wife suggested mounting a pencil in the toolholder, and drawing the patterns on paper for now :-)
[23:51:20]<djdelorie> which was something I was planning on doing eventually anyway...
[23:51:27]<Valen> djdelorie: use a texta ;->
[23:51:28]<jdhnc> I made a spring-loaded pen
[23:51:35]<Valen> more tollerent of Z axis
[23:51:57]<djdelorie> I was just going to clamp some hardwood on a pencil; the weight would press it down and also act as a stop when you lifted the Z
[23:52:18]<djdelorie> then run the pencil through holes in something. Not fancy, just "works" :-)
[23:53:04]<jdhnc> cpvc pipe and cap, drill a hole for the pen in the cap, stick a spring in the end. put that in a bushing that fit the spindle mount
[23:53:06]<djdelorie> I might have a suitable spring, though, too...
[23:53:23]<Valen> dude you guys overthink things too much
[23:53:25]<Valen> duct tape
[23:53:28]<jdhnc> my emc logos looked really good
[23:53:28]<Valen> texta
[23:53:32]<Valen> done
[23:53:54]<jdhnc> Valen: if it's worth doing, it's worth over-doing.
[23:54:13]<djdelorie> the overkill gene runs strong in my family...
[23:54:19]<jdhnc> then with v2.0, everything is configurable and your machine can send email
[23:54:34]<jdhnc> well, maybe that's just me.
[23:55:22]<djdelorie> off to tinker some more... :-)