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Everyone is different but A.I.'s advanced stats have given me a greater understanding and appreciation for him and as a result I think I like him even more. He was never great in terms of advanced metrics but they did one thing, they proved my beliefs on him and his role in the 76ers team to be true. The better teammates he had during his prime the better played the weaker the teammates the more he struggled and had to force it on too many occasions. His advanced stats reflect this.

Are any of you two in a front office of an NBA team? If not, then why bother?

Because I love everything about the game. More insight = more fun. I honestly dont know how much easier I can spell that out for you.

Fans using them as a way to "enjoy the game better" is ridiculous to me. Enjoy the game by grabbing a beer, sitting with some friends, and just watching what transpires.

Just watching? LMFAO, no offense but that sounds awfully boring. Your telling me you never engage in debates with your friends while you watch? I do, I love it, ESPECIALLY if we've been drinking. I dont want to come off conceded but Im kind of a big deal, Im the big fish in a small pond when Im with my friends.

Yes, we know we're not GM's but that doesn't mean we cant at least try to approximate their methodology. Stats arent perfect, never going to be, we get it, hammering that point home seems to be your primary function these days. But they will ALWAYS have immense value.

Last edited by Chronz; 12-30-2012 at 04:24 PM.

"It’s absolutely ludicrous” (to judge players based on whether they’ve won a title.)

Because I love everything about the game. More insight = more fun. I honestly dont know how much easier I can spell that out for you.

Just watching? LMFAO, no offense but that sounds awfully boring. Your telling me you never engage in debates with your friends while you watch? I do, I love it, ESPECIALLY if we've been drinking. I dont want to come off conceded but Im kind of a big deal, Im the big fish in a small pond when Im with my friends.

Yes, we know we're not GM's but that doesn't mean we cant at least try to approximate their methodology. Stats arent perfect, never going to be, we get it, hammering that point home seems to be your primary function these days. But they will ALWAYS have immense value.

Sounds good and everything, you guys just lose credibility with me when you try so hard to convince everyone that advanced stats are the way to go. And when someone says they dont use them, you people call that person ignorant, stupid, dumb, missing out, etc. Chill man, you want to watch the game the way you do, others choose to watch it the way they do. Its honestly you advanced stats maniacs that bring this site down because all of your arguments are solely based on advanced stats and when someone says they dont use them, you belittle that person and an argument begins. Just chill. I dont like advanced stats, let that be my prerogative.

Because I love everything about the game. More insight = more fun. I honestly dont know how much easier I can spell that out for you.

Just watching? LMFAO, no offense but that sounds awfully boring. Your telling me you never engage in debates with your friends while you watch? I do, I love it, ESPECIALLY if we've been drinking. I dont want to come off conceded but Im kind of a big deal, Im the big fish in a small pond when Im with my friends.

Yes, we know we're not GM's but that doesn't mean we cant at least try to approximate their methodology. Stats arent perfect, never going to be, we get it, hammering that point home seems to be your primary function these days. But they will ALWAYS have immense value.

Sounds good and everything, you guys just lose credibility with me when you try so hard to convince everyone that advanced stats are the way to go. And when someone says they dont use them, you people call that person ignorant, stupid, dumb, missing out, etc. Chill man, you want to watch the game the way you do, others choose to watch it the way they do. Its honestly you advanced stats maniacs that bring this site down because all of your arguments are solely based on advanced stats and when someone says they dont use them, you belittle that person and an argument begins. Just chill. I dont like advanced stats, let that be my prerogative.

Nothing you said was true, I never force my beliefs upon anyone, I merely expose the inaccuracies of outdated metrics.

I've made this clear to you before but it gos in one ear and out the other but Ill say it again. If you don't use stats in your argument so be it, but if your going to use stats, use the ones that actual statisticians put more value in. I should copy and paste this argument next time you pull this ****

"It’s absolutely ludicrous” (to judge players based on whether they’ve won a title.)

Nothing you said was true, I never force my beliefs upon anyone, I merely expose the inaccuracies of outdated metrics.

I've made this clear to you before but it gos in one ear and out the other but Ill say it again. If you don't use stats in your argument so be it, but if your going to use stats, use the ones that actual statisticians put more value in. I should copy and paste this argument next time you pull this ****

Knock yourself out. Im never going to use advanced stats and most will not.

Call me selfish but I hope your right but it doesn't seem to be trending that way. More and more people are starting to see the value in APBR metrics.

Which brings me to my next question, do you mean you will never use advanced metrics or that you will never use stats period?
There is a difference, one means your a traditional fan the other means your willfully ignorant.

"It’s absolutely ludicrous” (to judge players based on whether they’ve won a title.)

Well I would be sure that MJ would get better stats as well if he knew PER and WS were around when he played. Afterall he is still #1 all time in PER in the season and WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs.

Sounds good and everything, you guys just lose credibility with me when you try so hard to convince everyone that advanced stats are the way to go. And when someone says they dont use them, you people call that person ignorant, stupid, dumb, missing out, etc. Chill man, you want to watch the game the way you do, others choose to watch it the way they do. Its honestly you advanced stats maniacs that bring this site down because all of your arguments are solely based on advanced stats and when someone says they dont use them, you belittle that person and an argument begins. Just chill. I dont like advanced stats, let that be my prerogative.

First, let me start by saying I don't really follow advanced stats that much, or regular stats for that matter. I also agree with you that stats have HUGE flaws. The players around you, your coaches, and the scheme you are in dictates your stats alot. However, we cannot watch every game, if you do then I will definitively listen to you about basketball, and so what are we left with to judge a player besides stats? You cannot judge a player from a few game sample size. Hence, you would atleast need to watch 15 or so games of every team during different parts of the season to get a good overview of every team. So, if you aren't using stats to judge players and you haven't watched a significant amount of a certain team, my question to you is what do you use to judge these players?

Originally Posted by latinofire21

Maybe if the Bulls can get healthy they can surpass the hawks but other than that I dont see them cracking the top 4 spots in the east based on Pure record. Obviously they will have a higher spot because they are in a weak division but record wise they wont crack the top 4 by seasons end.

Well I would be sure that MJ would get better stats as well if he knew PER and WS were around when he played. Afterall he is still #1 all time in PER in the season and WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs.

What?

"It’s absolutely ludicrous” (to judge players based on whether they’ve won a title.)

First, let me start by saying I don't really follow advanced stats that much, or regular stats for that matter. I also agree with you that stats have HUGE flaws. The players around you, your coaches, and the scheme you are in dictates your stats alot. However, we cannot watch every game, if you do then I will definitively listen to you about basketball, and so what are we left with to judge a player besides stats? You cannot judge a player from a few game sample size. Hence, you would atleast need to watch 15 or so games of every team during different parts of the season to get a good overview of every team. So, if you aren't using stats to judge players and you haven't watched a significant amount of a certain team, my question to you is what do you use to judge these players?

Good post man. I respect your opinion and I also respect the fact that you made an attempt to help me understand why you use them without calling me names or trying to berate me because I choose to not use advanced stats.

I agree with your logic 100%, it is nearly impossible to eye test every player. I will never argue that fact. I will argue with someone who tells me another player is better than another player purely based off stats. Perfect example is Jordan. Most people on this board will argue that Lebron is the next best thing to Jordan, and it isnt close. I've had the luxary of actually watching Jordan play while I was growing up (Im in my 30's) and watching Lebron play now. People will tell you that Lebron is on Jordan's level and they have'nt even really seen Jordan play except maybe highlights. To me stats (Basic or "caveman" as they are refered to here) are just the beggining to judging a player. They show me if a player is in the same league as another player, then I will eye test. And I will say "Oh, this guy scores better than that guy because this is happening", something along those lines. Advanced stat guy doesnt seem to take any intangibles into consideration when comparing two players. Its simply "Guy A has a better WS than Guy B, so how can you argue that Guy B is better?" Its silly.