In order to be successfull in the game of basketball you must be aware that things may not unfold as previously planned. The Antoine Walker trade in my opinion was a beautiful steal for the mavericks. We acquired a three time NBA All Star who can handle the rock and drain the three, however, in the back of most mavs fans minds lies a question mark regarding whether or not this trade can really work to help us earn a championship. We must be patient and see just what kind of music this group can make, while at the same time also consider possible options or alternatives we may be forced to resort to in the future. While pondering this thought I decided to see just what the mavericks could do with their all star studded squad in case things (for a lack of a better term) simply dont pan out. Here is one trade I have checked out ...please feel free to throw in your opinion on whether or not you agree to this trade, whether or not you believe it would be good for dallas, whether you feel Detroit would even consider it, and/or any other trade possibilities .....etc etc

I think Detroit would have to be smoking crack to accept that trade. I would love it for the Mavs though!!!!

grndmstr_c

10-24-2003, 02:30 PM

I didn't see the games, so I don't know how things actually went down (who Ben was playing, if Ben was playing), but TD and Shaq pretty much chewed up Detroit last year. Barring an explanation I vote no on that trade.

Dirkenstien

10-24-2003, 02:33 PM

hmm ....true, perhaps if we threw in a conditional future first round pick it may sound a bit more enticing.

As much as I love Ben Wallace and would love him here, your trade has a greater probability, LRB.i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

Dirkenstien

10-24-2003, 02:49 PM

I would just might have to pull the trigger on that one i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

SaltwaterChaffy

10-24-2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
I didn't see the games, so I don't know how things actually went down (who Ben was playing, if Ben was playing), but TD and Shaq pretty much chewed up Detroit last year. Barring an explanation I vote no on that trade.

yes, but TD and Shaq chewed up everybody last year, and will continue to do so. Ben would be a huge asset for us, because he is a rebound/block machine. He is not a great post defender, but is great on helpside D. (sounds like raef, i know, but much, much better, and more intimidating in the post.) He would be better than anything the Mavericks have had in the past decade when it comes to a down and dirty player who does the things we need.

That said, this trade would never happen, unless Wallace gets on Brown's bad side for some reason. He's too much of an asset at this point. Maybe if Darko develops quicker than expected, and Brown gets an itchy trigger finger, this could happen, but I doubt it.

Murphy3

10-24-2003, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by: SaltwaterChaffy

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
I didn't see the games, so I don't know how things actually went down (who Ben was playing, if Ben was playing), but TD and Shaq pretty much chewed up Detroit last year. Barring an explanation I vote no on that trade.

yes, but TD and Shaq chewed up everybody last year, and will continue to do so. Ben would be a huge asset for us, because he is a rebound/block machine. He is not a great post defender, but is great on helpside D. (sounds like raef, i know, but much, much better, and more intimidating in the post.) He would be better than anything the Mavericks have had in the past decade when it comes to a down and dirty player who does the things we need.

That said, this trade would never happen, unless Wallace gets on Brown's bad side for some reason. He's too much of an asset at this point. Maybe if Darko develops quicker than expected, and Brown gets an itchy trigger finger, this could happen, but I doubt it.

If detroit would be dumb enough to do so..then yes, you make the trade in a heartbeat

Dirkenstien

10-24-2003, 03:01 PM

Originally quoted by Murphy3: "If detroit would be dumb enough to do so..then yes, you make the trade in a heartbeat "

- Agreed
<u>Text</u>

Dirkenstien

10-24-2003, 03:22 PM

Any ideas on what we could do to make this offer sound more attractive?

The Bandit

10-24-2003, 03:27 PM

Wasn't Detroit supposed to be down on Wallace after getting Darko? If so that may make him more available.

bogey

10-24-2003, 03:34 PM

Thoughtful and reasonable trade proposals for 200 Alex.

Please?

grbh

10-24-2003, 03:46 PM

It is damn near impossible to do adeal with Detroit as they don't have any long term horrible contracts the Mavs could take back combined with the fact that Wallace has one of the most owner friendly contract in the league. There just isn't a way to get him if Detroit was even remotely interested in moving him, which I don't think they are.

jmiles65

10-24-2003, 03:54 PM

Can we get Kane instead?

Objective J

10-24-2003, 03:55 PM

I think Ben Wallace would be a lot like Raef when he moved over the West. Ben Wallace would make a marvelous small forward in the West. Raef will surprise a lot of people in the East. This is probably the best move he could have wished for. Raef was put in a position to fail with the Mavs. He doesn't have the size or strength for center in the West. If we had had any meaningful minutes for him at the PF position he would have been an excellent post defender at that position. Ben at center in the West would be incredibly undersized and also be completely decimated after a grueling 82 game season.

Dirkenstien

10-24-2003, 03:56 PM

Oh it is possible, its just the convincing of Detroits management that is near impossible. Detroit would have to believe the notion that Darko is the "real deal" to consider this and focus more on the future perspective of the club as opposed to their immediate image... and from the moves I've wintessed the mavericks achieve so far this season, teams really do that! Also, Detriot does have decent backup centers and this could clear more PT for the development of Darko while also allowing him to have someone to learn from in Antoine.

Not only know, but Hell No!!!!! I wouldn't do that deal in a thousand years. Wallace in not worth Nash and Walker.

Dirkenstien

10-24-2003, 04:24 PM

Man, thats a tough one...although im not sure if dallas would consider trading nash, I must say this is a quite enticing trade for both teams, but the question arises..would Wallace survive in the wild wild west? and would this be a gamble worth taking? ..I think he would,..you dont win Defensive player of the year and get elected to the All Defensive NBA team by just halfway proving yourself to the league. Also, with Nash about to cash in next summer this might be the time to move him. I love Nash but this would allow us to have a very respectable lineup and just might give us the edge to win a title.

Objective J

10-24-2003, 04:29 PM

Key Stats:
Height: 6-9
Weight: 240

Wallace would never survive in the West. Again I am assuming that you guys are thinking of him as an answer at center. His assignments in the West:
Shaq 7ft+
Vlad 7ft+
Yao 7ft+
Duncan 7ft+
Garnett 7ft+h

madape

10-24-2003, 04:41 PM

Would Wallace even start for this team?

LRB

10-24-2003, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by: Objective J
Key Stats:
Height: 6-9
Weight: 240

Wallace would never survive in the West. Again I am assuming that you guys are thinking of him as an answer at center. His assignments in the West:
Shaq 7ft+
Vlad 7ft+
Yao 7ft+
Duncan 7ft+
Garnett 7ft+h

Not to mention that 6'9" is being very generous with his height and Shaq outweighs him by 100+ lbs. We loose tons of offense and gain someone physically ill equiped to play defense at the position that we need defense. This team would not be a contender with only Best to run the point and only Delk to back him up. We might still be able to compete with the TWolves for the 4th slot, but we would be exceptionally luck to do that. The Kings, Lakers, and Spurs would eat our lunch like school yard bullies. If we played either of them in the playoffs we would be lucky to win a single game. This would be a huge step backwards. Ben Wallace is the single most overrated player on this board.

Dirkenstien

10-24-2003, 04:52 PM

BEN WALLACE

-Named to the All-NBA Second team in 2002-03

-Named the 2002-03 NBA Defensive Player of the Year

-Won NBA Player of the Week honors (3/17-3/23) in 2002-03

-Named the 2001-02 NBA Defensive Player of the Year

-Named to the NBA All-Defensive team in 2001-02

-Named by USA Basketball as a member of the USA team that will compete at the World Basketball Championships in Indiana during the 2002 summer

-One of four players in NBA history to lead the league in rebounds and blocks during the same season (01-02) - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1975-76, Bill Walton 1976-77 and Hakeem Olajuwon 1989-90

-Won NBA Player of the Week honors twice (2/24 and 3/31) in 2001-02

-Led NBA in rebounds and blocks in 2001-02

-Set a franchise record for blocks (278) in a season (2001-02) - Bob Lanier had 247 in 1973-74

-Led the 1999-2000 Magic in rebounding (8.2, 20th in the NBA)

-Corralled a career-high 28 rebounds twice against the Boston Celtics on 3/24/02 and the Toronto Raptors on 4/17/01

-Posted a career-high 20 points, shooting 9-of-9 from the field, and 10 rebounds in a 97-86 win over the Cleveland Cavaliers on 4/29/99

-Scored a career-high 10 points against the Orlando Magic on 2/5/98 and matched it against the Vancouver Grizzlies on 2/14/98

-Grabbed a game-high 12 rebounds, in his first career NBA start, against the Indiana Pacers on 1/27/98

-Made his NBA debut, grabbing 10 rebounds in 19 minutes, against the Orlando Magic on 11/1/96

-Named First Team Division II All-America after averaging 12.5 ppg and 10.5 rpg as a senior at Virginia Union

...you tell me if he would start for the mavericks. Wallace overrated?

Lvubun1

10-24-2003, 05:00 PM

You gotta use common sense when it comes to these things. Who was Walker traded for? The Celtics were only about to fetch Raef for Walker, and they had to add in a solid guard, now you expect Cuban to turn that into Ben Wallace? Unless Cuban had a gun to Danny's face and/or he has a real hard-on for Raef, that along with Kt and Ward was probably the best offer he recieved. If it was possible to get Ben Wallace for Walker, don't you think every other team in the league might possibly had made a better offer to the Celtics then Raef a highly overpaid soft center, just to turn Walker into Wallace?

Objective J

10-24-2003, 05:05 PM

Those stats are great, but you actually proved my point with your stats. All but one of those teams you mentioned were in the East. Vancouver....well I don't really have to respond to that one. If the Mavs were in the East, I would kiss Ben Wallace's rear and sign him for whatever he wanted. But, the big men in the West are way bigger than those in the East. A PF in the West would be a center in the East. If you can show me dominant stats against the big men in the West last year (and Raef doesn't count as a viable example), I would agree with you. I don't think you are going to find them.

Dirkenstien

10-24-2003, 05:09 PM

Consider what Cuban has done with just Juwan Howard and you learn to not underestimate what is and what is not possible. Also, Antoine and Nash for Wallace and scrubs is almost too risky, making it seemingly more probable than impossible.

Objective J

10-24-2003, 05:15 PM

I agree with you on that note, Dirkenstien, Cuban does pull off some trades that are seemingly implausible. It's amazing what can happen when an owner doesn't fear luxury tax. Maybe he can turn Antoine into a serviceable big man before the trade deadline. I don't know who that would be though. There just aren't many of them (7ft+) around.

Objective J

10-24-2003, 05:27 PM

Actually, I am incorrect. I do have some possible answers at center for the Mavs. You have to look no further than Golden State. When I originally heard that they made a trade with Golden State, I was elated. I thought for sure they had landed Adonal Foyle or Erick Dampier. Instead it was Jamison. I would love to hear what you guys think of Foyle and Dampier as possible answers. I know nothing about salary cap and contract stuff, so this may not be possible for those reasons. I would totally trade Josh Powell for those guys.

LRB

10-24-2003, 05:57 PM

http://dallas-mavs.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=3&threadid=12948 That was the team that choked and finished 6th and played horribly except for the one bright spot of Michael Fineley? If I was Big Ben I'd take that one off my resume.

-Led NBA in rebounds and blocks in 2001-02 Still has yet to do it as more times than Shawn Bradley.

Ben Wallace racked up big numbers playing in the CBA-like and center and PF challenged east.

He's not worth 2 allstars.

He is an offensive liability. Only averaged 6.9 pts last year.

He shoots FT's worse than Shaq. 45%. couldn't afford to leave him in during the 4th quarter of close games.

Is too small to meet our needs at center, and we're already overloaded at PF.

He would not start a lot of games for the Mavs because of his offensive liabilites.

He would end a lot of games because of his offensive liabilities especially his FT shooting.

He is without a doubt overrated on this board. Any awards that he may have won have nothing to do with overrating him. One grossly undersized defensive player will not turn this team into a defensive powerhouse.

The proposed trade would drag the Mavs out of title contention into also rans. Our great strength is offense. Trading for Ben Wallace would deminish that more than it would help us on defense. Not much harder to get 5 guys to play D than it is to get 4 guys to play D. Ben never was and never will be able to adequately defending the basket 1 on 5. He plays one end of the court and only one end. And he can't guard Shaq, he can't guard Duncan, and I doubt that he can guard Divac. So why in the hell would we give up our chance to defeat the 3 best teams in the league besides us to get this offensive spare.

AdamAMMP

10-24-2003, 07:54 PM

Big Bens number against the top 3 last yr

SAC
9.0pts 17.5Rbs 4.0bks 2.0st

Lakers
10.0pts 14.5Rbs 2.0bks 1.0st

Spurs
4.0pts 7.5Rbs 2.0blks 2.0st

He got owned by the Spurs

FilthyFinMavs

10-24-2003, 08:14 PM

Excuse me if I offend anyone this site with this statement and I say it everywhere but why does it feel like i'm on Mavtalk? What is this board coming to? Let's all get back to reality and everything will be okay.

EricaLubarsky

10-24-2003, 08:50 PM

Ben Wallace was never offered to Boston, why would they offer him to us?

This makes no sense.

Lvubun1

10-24-2003, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Ben Wallace was never offered to Boston, why would they offer him to us?

This makes no sense.

Exactly. And yes Cuban has pulled off some good ones but he has traded for good players with low trade value, Howard, NVE, Jamison and Walker. Each one has one of three things against him

#1. Attitude
#2. Contract
#3. Team just didn't want him anymore.

Howard: #2
NVE: #1
Jamison: # 2 and #3
Walker: #1, #2, and #3

Its not like Cube was able to trade Raef for Iverson or a young player with lesser talent or even a player with lesser talent with no baggage, attitude or contract wise. If Walker was a desirable player somebody would have offered the C's better then Raef, considering how much he sucks and how much he makes it would not have been hard. The only way the Mavs will recieve decent talent for Walker is if it goes full circle and he is traded for another player who has one of the above issues. Nick came in as a throwaway undesirable and left as a desirable which was able to fetch another undesirable but a better fit. If Walker and Jamison can do what Nick did the Mavs might have decent trade bait in the future.

Talk all you want about the Warriors not wanting Jamison, but the onlly baggage he brought with him is his contract. He's shown himself to be nothing but a talented, stand up guy since he got here as far as I'm aware. As for Walker, he doesn't come with a rep near as bad as Nick did. As long as he doesn't turn into an a$$ he'll be valuable trade bait next year because of his contract; rehabbing not necessary.

MavsFanFinley

10-24-2003, 11:51 PM

I saw this on the LMF board. I didn't see it posted anywhere here but thought it might be interesting for some here that are in love with trade talk.

I don't know how reliable that Hoopsworld is, but I found this from their website:

Dallas - The trade winds may still be blowing in Dallas, as the team continues to look to possibly add a big man such as Antonio Davis of the Raptors to the mix. But if this unorthodox lineup is still in place next week, it's just the type of team Don Nelson loves.

Has anybody heard anything about this? Thanks.

AdamAMMP

10-24-2003, 11:58 PM

F'k Antonio Davis

bogey

10-25-2003, 12:20 AM

Some of these trade offers are just sad.

MavsFanFinley

10-25-2003, 12:55 AM

The Mavs have been involved with quite a few of the Davis rumors. Not sure whether the Mavs really have that much interest or if it's becoming like NY reports.

I had to check out realgm and see what works just out of curiosity. I only fooled with this for a minute as it gave me a headache.

Finley/Najera works or Davis/Williams

or

Bradley/Najera/TAW works for Davis

The only reason I see the Mavs using the first scenerio is to rid of Finley's contract. Delk could be the starting sg with Williams playing both the 1 and 2. Still allows Howard to get plenty of minutes. Najera will be seldom used and Davis would help at the center position.

I don't see any reason the Mavs go for the 2nd scenerio. Not even to dump TAW's contract. Davis is not an upgrade over Bradley, plus we'd lose Najera who can spot at the center position.

Surely the Mavs are not thinking about a 3-team trade right now.

bogey

10-25-2003, 01:20 AM

Surely the Mavs are not thinking about a 3-team trade right now.

No way no how....and don't call me shirley. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

grndmstr_c

10-25-2003, 05:00 AM

Fortson and TAW for Davis would also work, and that would be the only trade I'd be willing to do to get him (at least in a two way), but no way Toronto would do it because the contracts they'd be getting would last a couple years longer than Davis' contract.

Dirkenstien

10-25-2003, 10:36 AM

I agree...Forstons and TAW are about all i would even consider giving up for Davis

Adonal Foyle alongside Danny Fortson could solve every problem the Mavs had at the 5 spot. This would effectively turn the Mavs into a defensive and rebounding powerhouse. I know the talent levels of the players in the trade aren't equitable, but the salaries work.

Adonal Foyle alongside Danny Fortson could solve every problem the Mavs had at the 5 spot. This would effectively turn the Mavs into a defensive and rebounding powerhouse. I know the talent levels of the players in the trade aren't equitable, but the salaries work.

But why on earth would GS even consider this trade? TAW fills none of their needs. They lose a great PF and a decent backup center for a spare with an incredibly bad contract that wont' be up for several years.

Objective J

10-25-2003, 12:01 PM

I agree with you that the disparity between what the two teams are getting is great. I guess I am trying to figure out what kind of trade would be feasible that would land us Adonal Foyle. I know we just gave up our number one pick for next year, but there must be something that Cuban can do to balance the talent levels. I know Adonal Foyle is in the last year of his contract, and perhaps Golden State could agree to get something for him. But, you are right something better needs to be offered than TAW. I just don't know a good structure to put together. Getting Adonal Foyle may be impossible without a three player trade. I mainly tabled it to see if anyone on the board had any ideas of how we could get Foyle or Dampier. If I was Cuban, I would give up almost any combination of players outside of the big three to get one or both of those guys.

Big_Dog

10-25-2003, 12:25 PM

we could throw in Najera to make it more attracting to GS, although I doubt they would accept it

FilthyFinMavs

10-25-2003, 12:28 PM

A mod should rename this thread " THE REAL Stoopid Trades Thread". I might become a Raptors fan if they added Finley to Bosh and Vince Carter.

Adonal Foyle alongside Danny Fortson could solve every problem the Mavs had at the 5 spot. This would effectively turn the Mavs into a defensive and rebounding powerhouse. I know the talent levels of the players in the trade aren't equitable, but the salaries work.

gs would have to be smokin some good herb to pull this one off

there's absolutely no way that a team gives up two quality big men in the western conference unless they're getting a superstar in return

Dirkenstien

10-25-2003, 01:59 PM

true... I still feel najera, antoine, and travis best along with a future first rounder for Ben wallace and trash would be good for our team

LRB

10-25-2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
A mod should rename this thread " THE REAL Stoopid Trades Thread". I might become a Raptors fan if they added Finley to Bosh and Vince Carter.

Or rename it to "You need to be smoking some good stuff to make these trades thread".

I'm not sure how the WWE needs Najera when they have Eddie Guererro to fill the same role.

Bradley could work in WWE as a younger Undertaker, though he might have to don a mask and some full body armor to cover his pale, non steroided skin.

Big Show would be a monster on Dallas. I wonder if he can shoot.

Objective J

10-25-2003, 03:01 PM

These aren't just big bodies. This may sound like I have a woody for Foyle, but I scouted him last year on the NBA League Pass. He is an unstoppable rebounding force who was coming off the bench. The fact that Golden State led the league in rebounding last year was no accident. Their three headed monster of Foyle, Dampier, and Fortson could not be kept off the boards. In my opinion, Foyle was the best of the three (defensively) and he saw limited playing time because of the log jam they had at the 4/5 position. Throw Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, and Clif Robinson in the mix, and the log jam for them is even greater. We already have one of the three players that I wanted. If we could land Dampier and or Foyle, we would essentially have the players that led the league in rebounding last year not to mention their low post defending abilities.

and if this werent attractive enough for Detroit we could possibly throw in a future first rounder to spice it up.

Dirkenstien

10-25-2003, 03:30 PM

can you imagine wallace and fortson in the same lineup? ....and I also like Wallace because although he may be an offensive liability he is an extremely athletic and versatile monster on both defense and on the boards. I'm sure he could even play some 3 if needed.

Objective J

10-25-2003, 03:38 PM

Your trade just doesn't sound that great to me. I am not that big of a Ben Wallace fan.

Adam... earlier posted these stats for Ben Wallace:

SAC
9.0pts 17.5Rbs 4.0bks 2.0st

Lakers
10.0pts 14.5Rbs 2.0bks 1.0st

Spurs
4.0pts 7.5Rbs 2.0blks 2.0st

I like him, but I just don't know how he would last day in and day out against the West centers. In my earlier post, I forgot to throw in Nesterovic and Paul Gasol as other 7ft+ centers he would have to contend with. Ben is really strong, but I think with his size he would have the same problems Dirk would have starting at center every day.

Elden Campbell...I used to be a big fan, but I just think he is on his last legs. Najera and Jamison could probably be used in a more efficient manner to get someone 6'10" plus for the five position. I am not a big fan of undersized centers, otherwise, we would already have our answer with Fortson.

The reason I keep mentioning the Golden State guys is because three players of pretty good size would last better over the 82 game season.

Dirkenstien

10-25-2003, 03:49 PM

those stats arent that bad at all ..17.5 rebounds against vlade and webber, almost 15 rebounds against shaq, not so good against the spurs but still not bad, and doing this while averaging about 3.25 blocks. Plus he wouldnt have to kill himself in there with the trees in the west because he still alternates PT at center with Bradley, Fortson, and Campbell. With these guys in the lineup he may not have to play center the whole time, alternating roles to play PF where he may feel a little more comfortable and not get banged up so bad.

LRB

10-25-2003, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by: Dirkenstien
can you imagine wallace and fortson in the same lineup? ....and I also like Wallace because although he may be an offensive liability he is an extremely athletic and versatile monster on both defense and on the boards. I'm sure he could even play some 3 if needed.

Yes I could and it would stink to high heaven. The Mavs could kiss any shot at getting home court in the playoffs goodbye if those 2 play significant time together. Neither player is worth a damn putting the ball in the hoop. Can't afford to play 3 on 5 offense. Of defense will still suck because Fort is not a great defender, but can be decent. And we still have 3 other positions that won't defend well. So now we can't stop people that well and we can't score that well. This sucks.

Dirkenstien

10-25-2003, 07:43 PM

I dont see it that way...although this trade doesnt help our perimeter D...which is where defense begins, I do believe it would help us defensively down low by seaming up gaps and would help us tremendously with boards. Fortson would still come in as a back up along with Bradley and Wallace could be used in either the Pf or C positions depending on Nellie's matchup notions for that particular game. Not having five shooting talents on the floor at once is just a risk we would have to be willing to take. I was thinking of the Fortson-Wallace lineup in a double digit lead type of situation in order to control the boards and focus more on D.