To Modema;
To begin with I happen to have been a former ordained Pentecostal minister with a college degree in biblical and religious science and had three of my own Christian churches for several years. I’ll admit I was brainwashed as a child and the only proof of what you say is from the bible its self which is no proof the bible is even true.

Parts of the OT were history and fables borrowed from fables of other religions including the ten commandments.

The whole idea of Adam & Eve and a talking snake is absurd and there are 2,000 contradictions in the bible.

The god you speak of is a cruel foul mouthed murdering madman even though he does not exist and if he did then there is no way that one could call him a loving god.

It is obvious you are brainwashed as brainwashed people do not even know it. You are living a fairy tale existence and you fear dying at the end of your life so you tell yourself that God exist and you are going to live in a fairy tale place forever. The Peter Pan Syndrome.

But I assure you when you die you won’t know it anyway as it is like being unconscious.

The bible is also a book of smut worse than anything you will find in an adult bookstore and not fit for small children to read.

I could go on and on, but a lay person does not study the bible or they would know these things.

Then their are those who believe the bible condemns homosexuals when in fact it does not because the bible although a work of fiction was not written literally but in languages nothing like modern English.

Here is what the bible actually says what Fundy Christians claim it says about homosexuals:

“And with a male you shall not lay [in the] lyings of a woman.” That is, two men must not engage in sexual behavior on a woman’s bed. Presumably, they must go elsewhere to have sex; a woman’s bed was sacred and was to be reserved for heterosexual sex.
“And a man who will lie down with a male in beds of a woman, both of them have made an abomination; dying they will die. Their blood is on them.”

“Religious objections to homosexuality spring from two sources. One is the ancient patriarchal warrior-clan religion on which several modern religions are based. In their clans it was every male’s duty to breed, to produce more soldiers, and any who didn’t were violating cult taboo: it was taken as a sign of non-male weakness, of “sin” against their warrior Father.
many other references to Sodom in the Bible and Jewish literature.

Wanted to humiliate their visitors by engaging in “an act of sexual degradation and male rape…These are acts of violence that are committed by parties seeking to show their hatred for those they are degrading. It is not an act of love or of caring” 1 Perhaps the sin of Sodom was the threat of mass rape.
Wanted to engage in bestiality—having sex with members of another species. The mob may have wanted to rape the angels; angels are not human beings; they are of a different species. This would be consistent with the quotation in Jude about the men of Sodom going after “other flesh” or “strange flesh.”
Wanted to adsorb the power of the angels: In ancient times, sacred sex was very common. People would engage in sexual intercourse with temple prostitutes who represented a god or goddess. By doing so, the people believed that they would receive a blessing from the deity. If the people of Sodom realized that angels sent by God were present in their city, the men of Sodom may have concluded that raping the angels might give them supernatural powers.
Bible make it clear that Sodom was punished because of the violent, abusive, inhospitable, greedy, and unsympathetic behavior of its citizens towards visitors, widows, the poor and other disadvantaged persons. Liberals often interpret Genesis 19 as condemning homosexual rape simply because it is rape. It would then be consistent with Deuteronomy 22:25-29 which condemns heterosexual rape. The passage does not impact on consensual homosexual activities between consenting adults, and is totally unrelated to loving, committed, same-sex relationships, civil unions and marriages. Most religious liberals are faced with the inescapable and rather surprising conclusion that the condemned activities in Sodom probably had nothing to do with sodomy—i.e. anal sex. As one Christian editor wrote: “To suggest that Sodom and Gomorrah is about homosexual sex is an analysis of about as much worth as suggesting that the story of Jonah and the whale is a treatise on fishing.”

So unless you are an ordained minister having gone to college and having been in the ministry for more than 35 years and not brainwashed then you do not know you are talking about.

And I have read the entire bible through and it took me eight months the first time and two years the second time reading slower and taking notes and I assure you most of the bible came from other older religion’s fables, legends and folk stories.

The bible was written by men not by God. God did not write the bible, men did.

If you took the time to do some serious research you would find the book that you mock is different from any book ever written. It is today still the best seller. Take some time to research and you will find that many of the places, people, and things written of in that extremely unusual book have been proven with indisputable evidence to be verifiable.

My dear, I have researched it quite well, as I am sure others here have too, and could probably tell you things about it that you didn’t find in your research, yet the support for the various responses would be easy to find, I’m sure.

Keep in mind that the book was written by over 40 different authors separated by three different continents, by thousands of years, all writing on highly controversial subjects with complete harmony. See if you can get just 10 different writers to write on a just few controversial subject with just a hundred year time span and without 3 continents separating them and see what you get.

Thus, if there ever was a historical Jesus, he is too buried in myth to find.

As time goes on the evidence keeps getting stronger and stronger. But evidence can never proof what was written is true. It is extremely weird that the three major world religions all speak of this Jesus some loved him others hated him but He must have lived. what’s even stranger is the writers of the new testament record Jesus saying his words would never die. 2000 years later He has set more pens on fire, is the most studied individual, but its all just a coincidence I know He did not exist.

Evidence? The only evidence is that it is a literary work, mixed with other myths and stories, not to mention a retelling of pagan stories and other dying and rising god myths.

The bible is the only book mankind has speaking of the redemption of man kind. Its easy to pick it apart and laugh at it but if you become serious you will be amazed what it does reveal.

Written by man and it is not the inerrant word of God, but rather the word of humans.

When you understand the bible its pretty clear Jesus tells us the religious people were a bunch of hypocrites,liars,snakes He had no nice words for them, well things have not changed much still are a bunch of divided hypocrites.

Many of us here understand it better than you think we do.

God opening up understanding is another thing and until he does that for you just enjoy your life, no need to mock people who put much effort in seeking out truth, it does pay off.

God is a human concept.

God has a plan He is all knowing, nothing caught Him off guard and he is working out mans perfection, this experience is needed when he is finished with his creation that He loves it will be very good and know one will be screaming in hell.

Heaven and hell are also human concepts. Shoel is a Hebrew word meaning the grave, but it was mistranslated into the word hell, just as the fires that continue to burn 24/7 in the O.T. That was actually a place to burn garbage and cremate dead bodies. Obviously you haven’t researched and studied the Bible as well as you think you have.

For those of you that think this is a beautiful world, take a look around and get real. Forty percent of our population is hungry but lets blame it on God. Lets not take responsibility America alone could probably solve the problem for the world hunger.

God has nothing to do with it.

Just because you have not had an experience does not mean it is not real. It really is a no brainer, if you want to believe you came from a monkey more power to you. Common sense will tell you that there is intelligent design behind this all.

Rudimentary Reason 101: Gorillas, chimps, and oranatangs have hands just like humans. Their faces are much similar. Basically, they look similar to us, except with more hair. Even an elementary kid can figure out that science is onto something there. Evolution is a no brainer, but to say Genesis (Creationism) is correct is to do mental gymnastics and perpetuate myth.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

Keep in mind that the book was written by over 40 different authors separated by three different continents, by thousands of years, all writing on highly controversial subjects with complete harmony. See if you can get just 10 different writers to write on a just few controversial subject with just a hundred year time span and without 3 continents separating them and see what you get.

All with complete harmony? I think not. Of course, during the periods where the Bible was compiled, decisions were made to exclude “apocrypha” because it was somewhat less in harmony with the other scribblings that got included. Of that there is no doubt. But the Bible is like any ancient mythological text. It includes echoes of some real events, others made up out of whole cloth, couched in exaggeration and a variety of different ideologies.

There is no reason to take it as any more truthful than any other religiously important text. Virtually all religions have them, and they all assert different things.

i want to thank you for opening my eyes with your absurdly vague slogans. i have been touched by Jesus, but he warned me not to tell anyone or he would eternally damn my family… Shit! I shouldnt have told you that…

Um… Interesting God you have there, Truth. Don’t you think he’s awfully violent? Not to mention, if you aren’t suppose to tell, isn’t that one more form of abuse? BTW, show me on the doll where Jesus touched you.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

Lilith? *Mriana makes note that Truth is now delusional* I’m not Lilith nor I haven’t mated with evil demons. Or even started a Women’s lib movement by exerting my independence… Oh wait, I did say, “No gods no masters.” Well Lilith started it. She had power! She new God’s name and told him “No.” Then she sung and dance to, “I’ve got the power!”

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

As time goes on the evidence keeps getting stronger and stronger. But evidence can never proof what was written is true. It is extremely weird that the three major world religions all speak of this Jesus some loved him others hated him but He must have lived. what’s even stranger is the writers of the new testament record Jesus saying his words would never die. 2000 years later He has set more pens on fire, is the most studied individual, but its all just a coincidence I know He did not exist.

Why limit your evidence to 2000 years? For reference: Anatomically modern humans appear in the fossil record in Africa about 130,000 years ago. Jesus has had an impact on homo-sapien life for only 1/65th our existence. Also, setting pens on fire is radically insignificant evidence for being the offspring of a supernatural being. Give Shakespeare a few hundred years, maybe he can get some supernatural credibility.

God has a plan He is all knowing, nothing caught Him off guard and he is working out mans perfection, this experience is needed when he is finished with his creation that He loves it will be very good and know one will be screaming in hell.

The members of this forum are part of this master plan. Your ignorance & judgments must also be a part of this plan. Does this mean there is no such thing as right & wrong only God’s plan? Or are humans outside God’s omnipotence? Does God actually have omnipotence?

For those of you that think this is a beautiful world, take a look around and get real. Forty percent of our population is hungry but lets blame it on God. Lets not take responsibility America alone could probably solve the problem for the world hunger.

I assume that this means America is out side of God’s power? God is not all powerful?

Just because you have not had an experience does not mean it is not real. It really is a no brainer, if you want to believe you came from a monkey more power to you. Common sense will tell you that there is intelligent design behind this all.

God confounded the wise. Did the unwise become the wise? Are all people equally confounded? How can an unwise person recognize intelligence or sense?

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“It is the tension between creativity and skepticism that has produced the stunning and unexpected findings of science.” ~ Carl Sagan

There is one major difference between my experience and your experience, any belief I now hold was not passed down to me during childhood years. My only claim is that something changed my heart so drastically, that I can not explain it away.
I am so glad I did not spend years in bible college to be brainwashed by the most arrogant, most brainwashed, most closeminded stubborn group of people I have come across in life.
You talk about Jonah the whale, that was just an idiom, no man spent three days in the belly of a whale. Yes, the religious people of today have mixed mythology and a lot of crap, teaching the people a bunch of man made ideas and down right lies all in the name of God,can’t you see they keep the people from God. take tithing for example, the bible teaches nothing…. no nothing…. of the nonsense people are being exposed to today, but if you try to correct them they will cast you out, and those Pentecostals I think are the most brainwashed
Holey Goat you were subjected to a really brutal experience, when we are taught a bunch of lies and do not properly understand things it can cause us to reject things that if properly taught might have otherwise been received. I do not blame you at all for rejecting God after being exposed to religious people at bible school, from what you posted I am assuming you grew up with religious people. I think I truly do believe if there is a Satan the churches and all religious systems are preaching the very gospel of Satan.
Sorry if I am babbling, my point is, if you are truly not closed minded why not study all the known historical evidence backing the bible because it appears to me you don’t think their is any real evidence that it is a part of our history. No other piece of antiquity was passed down to us in such rich abundance, so meticulously preserved that in comparison there is no comparison and all ancient writing should be disregarded.
The only reason I responded to your post is, if you truly were a minister there had to be times when you have experienced what I earlier said has made me believe there is a God. If you can be open minded at all take the time to read what follows. JEREMIAH 23:16-22 Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you ... They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord ... 90 percent of the teaching out there is false

If the Bible is the inerrant and infallible word of God, as it claims (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21), we would expect there to be some evidence supporting these claims. After all, just because something claims to be the word of God does not make it true. We will examine the testimony of historical evidence to ask, Does the evidence support or deny the internal claims of the Bible? It is t
Three tests can be applied to the Bible to see if it exhibits characteristics of a divine book that is without error. First, external evidence should confirm the truthfulness of the Bible in areas we can investigate. Second, internal evidence should show that, in one way or another, the Bible is unique. While these tests can establish the reliability of the Bible and lend support to the Bible’s claims, they cannot prove its inspiration. However, the third test, a brief overview of Bible prophecy, will actually serve to verify the claim of divine inspiration.
The Testimony of History
External evidence from both archaeology and non-Christian writers confirms that the Bible—both Old and New Testaments—is a trustworthy historical document. Archaeologist Joseph Free has said that “Archaeology has confirmed countless passages which had been rejected by critics as unhistorical or contrary to known facts.” [1] Renowned Jewish archaeologist Nelson Gluek confidently said that “It…may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible.” [2] Christian apologist Josh McDowell tells us that “After personally trying to shatter the historicity and validity of the Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that they are historically trustworthy.” [3]
Some scholars once said that Moses couldn’t have written the first five books of the Bible (as the Bible says) because writing was largely unknown in his day. Then, archaeology proved otherwise by the discovery of many other written codes of the period: the code of Hammurabi (ca. 1700 B.C.), the Lipit-Ishtar code (ca. 1860), and the Laws of Eshnunna (ca. 1950 B.C.).
Critics used to say that the biblical description of the Hittite Empire was wrong because the Hittite Empire (they though) didn’t even exist! Then archaeologists discovered the Hittite capital in 1906 and discovered that the Hittite’s were actually a very vast and prominent civilization. Archaeological and linguistic evidence is increasingly pointing to a sixth-century B.C. date for the book of Daniel, in spite of the many critics who attempt to late-date Daniel and make it a prophecy after the detailed events it predicts.
For the New Testament, Dr. G.R. Habermas points out that within 110 years of Christ’s crucifixion, approximately eighteen non-Christian sources mention more than “one hundred facts, beliefs, and teachings from the life of Christ and early Christendom. These items, I might add, mention almost every major detail of Jesus’ life, including miracles, the Resurrection, and His claims to deity.” [4] Sir William Ramsey, one of the greatest archeologists to ever live, demonstrated that Luke made no mistakes in references to 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands.
Liberal scholars used to argue that a town named Nazareth didn’t exist at the time of Jesus, until archaeology of the last few decades confirmed its existence. The Gospel’s portrayals of the temple, Pilate’s court, Jesus’ crown of thorns, and the mode of His execution have all also been confirmed. The list could go on and on.
The historical evidence clearly shows that the Bible is a reliable historical document. Since the Bible can be trusted in areas that we can check (its history), then this gives us a reason to trust it in areas that we cannot check (its claims for inspiration).
The Uniqueness of the Bible
The internal evidence test reveals the Bible’s amazing consistency. The Bible was written by over 40 authors, in 3 languages, on 3 continents, over a span of 1,500 years, and covers hundreds of controversial subjects. Yet, the authors all spoke with agreement; there are no contradictions. [5] From Genesis to Revelation, there is one unfolding story—God’s redemption of mankind.
Bible Prophecy
The external and internal evidence tests do not prove the Bible’s inspiration, but do reveal that the objective evidence is consistent with and supports the Bible’s claims to be a divine book (because any book from God that claims to be inerrant should be reliable and consistent with itself). Bible prophecy, however, can only be explained by divine revelation and inspiration.
There are hundreds of specific prophecies in the Bible which have been literally fulfilled, in many cases centuries after the completion of the Bible. Any attempt to late-date these prophecies is impossible—there is a copy of every Old Testament book but one from before 150 BC, and hundreds of these prophecies were not fulfilled until centuries later. For a detailed discussion of this area, see Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.
Some prophecies fulfilled by Jesus are Micah 5:2, which revealed where He would be born; Isaiah 53 detailed His suffering, work at the cross, and resurrection; Psalm 22 is striking prophecy of the crucifixion.
Norman Geisler explains Ezekiel’s prediction that the city of Tyre “would be destroyed and its ruins cast into the sea (26:2). This provoked scoffing because, when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Tyre, he left the ruins right where they fell—on the land. But 200 years later, Alexander the Great attacked Tyre and the inhabitants withdrew to an island just off the coast for safety. In order to reach them, Alexander threw all of the debris, stones, timbers, dust, and everything else, into the sea to build a causeway that would reach the island.” [6] If events so far in the future can be accurately predicted, certainly the events of the past have been accurately recorded!
Has the text of the Bible Been Altered Over the Centuries?
One last test investigates whether or not the Bible has been corrupted down through the ages in its transmission. If it has been significantly changed, then it would not be relevant to us since inspiration does not extend to any manuscript copy. How can we know whether or not the Bible we have today is the same as what was written?
This question is answered by the bibliographical test. This test looks at the number of existing manuscript copies there are, their agreement with each other concerning the text that they are copies of, and the time interval between these copies and the date of the original writing. All scholars agree that this test has conclusively established that the biblical text which we have now is nearly identical to what was originally recorded (for both Old and New Testaments).
Sir Frederick Kenyon, who was second to none in issuing statements about manuscripts, said this about the New Testament: “The interval between the dates of original composition and the earliest existing evidence [i.e. the earliest copies we have] become so small to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially has having been written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and general integrity of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.” [7] He further said that “No fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith rests on a disputed reading.”
The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which date from 200 B.C. to A.D. 68, included a copy of every Old Testament book except for one. Comparison with the texts of a thousand years later shows little or no variation and change between them.
Conclusion
The historical evidence shows that the Bible can be trusted. The commonly held idea that the Bible is unreliable or “just a myth” is unfounded. The internal evidence reveals the uniqueness of the Bible, a uniqueness which would be difficult to explain if it was just a human book. These two tests give credibility to the Bible’s internal claims to be the word of God. The testimony of predictive prophecy, however, takes us a step further and confirms the Bible’s claims to be inspired by God. Finally, the Bible has not been changed through the ages. The evidence shows that there is good reason to believe in the Bible.
Notes
1. Joseph Free, Archaeology and Bible History (Wheaton, Illionis: Scripture Press, 1969), p. 1.
2. Nelson Glueck, Rivers in the Desert (New York: Farar, Straus and Cudahy, 1959), p. 136.
3. Josh McDowell, More Than a Carpenter (Wheaton, Illionois: Tyndale House Publishers, 1977), p. 57.
4. Gary Habermas and Antony Flew, Did Jesus Rise From the Dead? (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1987), p. 43.
5. I have personally looked into the issue of alleged contradictions, and after thorough investigation, have never found one to hold. Norman Geisler, who has studied the Bible exhaustively for over forty years and been confronted with numerous dificulties, is of the same conclusion. A valuable resource for further investigation on this mater is Geisler’s When Critics Ask.
6. Norman Geisler and Ronald Brooks, When Skeptics Ask (Wheaton, Illinois: Victor Books, 1990), p. 198.
7. Sir Frederic Kenyon, The Bible and Archaeology (New York: Harper and Row, 1940), pp. 288, 289.
For further resources on this matter, consult I’m Glad You Asked

The archaeology you cite—particularly work by people like Nelson Glueck—is simply outdated. There is a huge mass of more contemporary archaeology that contradicts them. If you want to actually find out about this, I’d suggest starting with a book like The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. And I would also avoid using so-called “apologists” like Norman Geisler and Josh McDowell. The very meaning of the word “apologist” is someone who puts a priori ideology above the evidence.

The fact is that the Bible was cobbled together from a mass of contradictory, human created documents. This is accepted by all competent scholarship. There simply is no way to credibly paper over the sorts of contradictions I cited before, or the lack of evidence for the vast majority of fictionalized events you find within its pages.

The sort of obsessive apologetics that you cite can be carried out with any work of fiction. And indeed you will find Moslems, Hindus and others who do the same sort of contortions with their own holy books. Are you prepared to accept that Mohammed is the true prophet?

1. the virgin birth story is a pagan story. Pagans enjoyed virgin birth stories. It was a literary form of writing to entertain the masses. 2. It would be insane for a man to take a woman 8 to 9 months pregnant on such a trip because it is rough terrain, hot, and there were robbers on the trail. 3. they did not travel for the census anymore than we do. I can go on and on about that one, but I won’t. Secondly, the crucifixion was also a pagan tradition. There were many dying and rising gods- Horus, Premethus, etc. Third, there were many men named Jesus at the time, one of which wrote the infancy of Jesus and his grandson also named Jesus translated it. The historical accuracy is no more accurate than John Jakes North and South books. Not to mention, the story was extrapulated from previous myths of the time and set to the culture in that area. There were many Christian sects for years before, during and after that supposed time in which they all had their own books. These groups were in urban areas, but they fought for supremecy until Roman Christianity dominated. That too kept some of the paganism and added to it along the way. The most popular mystery sect at the time Rome began to dominate was Mithraism, which some of it was incorporated into the Roman Christianity.

It was all written by man and is very much in error historically and scientifically. 1. the world is not 6000 y.o. 2. there was never a world wide flood (this story was also rewritten from a Babylonian flood story) 3. Some of the old and new testament was extrapolated from Egyptian mythology too and rewritten for that group of people. The list goes on and one.

Add to that, Revelation is full of astrotheology, but the apologists and ministers refuse to acknowledge that because astrology is suppose to be a sin, yet it is right there.

Also, Krishna in the Bhagavad-Gita has a whole slew of “I Am"s starting with the Nineth teaching and in the Tenth teaching we find Krishna, saying, “I am the beginning, the middle, and the end…” In the 11th teaching, we discover Krishna is the incarnation of Vishnu. Christ is the incarnation of God. Obviously a pattern here and it continues: Krishna is a variation of Christ. Krishna/Kristo/Krista/Christos/Christa/Christ. It means anointed. Jesus is a variant of Joshua and Yesua, which means “the Saviour”. However, this is not unique to these names either.