topic Re: Need more guns!! in Ag Forumhttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256913#M74499
<P>In typical Jewish fashion, I will reply with a question.&nbsp; Can you show me a place in the US where they have given their guns back in an attempt to stop the violence? Like Australia.</P>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 07:32:37 GMTgough whitlam2012-10-27T07:32:37ZNeed more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/254991#M73947
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Obviously there were not enough in Wisconsin</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><A href="http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/10/22/wisconsin-shooter-gunman-salon-abuse.html" target="_blank">http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/10/22/wisconsin-shooter-gunman-salon-abuse.html</A></FONT></P>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 03:08:04 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/254991#M73947Canuck_22012-10-23T03:08:04ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255007#M73951
Where was that 12 year old girl with the titanium spine , that knows how to protect herself , and thinks that "victims" choose to be victimized?Tue, 23 Oct 2012 03:42:40 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255007#M73951Milligan Hay - Iowa d:^)2012-10-23T03:42:40ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255009#M73952
<P><FONT size="3">The thing is Canuck, is the shooter was a ex-Marine.&nbsp; he went through all the psych evaluations to handle and be trusted with all sorts of high tech weapons not available to us mere civilians.&nbsp; If we can`t trust those that are hired to protect us, we need that last line of personal defense in our own homes and businesses for when our protectors go bizerk.</FONT></P>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 03:52:30 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255009#M73952BA Deere2012-10-23T03:52:30ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255075#M73979
<P>Craig - I have searched the whole of this country looking for that map.&nbsp; ETA?</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>PS - don't send guns</P>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:30:38 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255075#M73979gough whitlam2012-10-23T11:30:38ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255079#M73981
<P>What did I just read?? &nbsp;American military man goes crazy and shoots his wife and others?? &nbsp;How dare you say anything bad about our troops.</P>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:33:21 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255079#M73981schnurrbart2012-10-23T11:33:21ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255095#M73989
<P><FONT size="3">They are only human, Schurrbart.&nbsp;&nbsp; They come from a "pool" of the rest of us, some are there because they couldn`t get a job at the paper mill, some are there because a Judge said "Join the military or I`ll sentence you to jail".&nbsp; I`m just saying that the private citizens who are&nbsp;their bosses should be afforded the same Gun rights that we`ve always had. </FONT></P>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:41:11 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255095#M73989BA Deere2012-10-23T11:41:11ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255113#M73997
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">So BA would more guns have helped this situation in Wisconsin?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Just consider how 1 less gun could have helped.</FONT></P>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 12:19:09 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255113#M73997Canuck_22012-10-23T12:19:09ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255307#M74036
<P>Having one less gun sure would have helped that 12 year old girl now wouldn't it have?</P>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 17:10:49 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255307#M74036GoredHusker2012-10-23T17:10:49ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255381#M74052
<P>Why is it then in the past if I or some other liberal said something about one or two soldiers going off the dock and shooting people, we got reamed for talking against our troops? &nbsp;That idiot lipman/ollie/ds is always saying crap like that anytime I have said that there are dirtbags in the army and in every other profession!</P>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 21:58:42 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255381#M74052schnurrbart2012-10-23T21:58:42ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255531#M74083
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="110"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>Having one less gun sure would have helped that 12 year old girl now wouldn't it have?</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">But one less gun in Wisconsin would have made a big difference to 7 or more people the other day and I am sure you will find a story somewhere in the media in the last few weeks about a child shooting someone 'by accident' with a gun that was in a house for..... protection????</FONT></P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 05:03:44 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255531#M74083Canuck_22012-10-24T05:03:44ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255539#M74086
<P>Bill - there is something in these guys' DNA.&nbsp;&nbsp; For reasons they cannot explain to themselves, it seems to be an extra apendage when carrying a gun.&nbsp; The cases of sensless laughter of innocent americans, thousands of times a year does not register, does not so much as enter into the equation.&nbsp;&nbsp; It is almost righteous for them to carry a gun under false pretences and think nothing of, what is termed in the rest of the world, as mass murder.&nbsp; Take the 12 yo who shot the robber for instance.&nbsp; Notwithstanding he probably deserves it but for a 12 yo to have the skills and courage to pull the trigger says a lot about what is the herd mentality over there.&nbsp; No 12 year old should have those skills at that age.&nbsp; I think they tuck a holster under their nappies.</P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 09:43:57 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255539#M74086gough whitlam2012-10-24T09:43:57ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255555#M74093
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="35"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="110"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>Having one less gun sure would have helped that 12 year old girl now wouldn't it have?</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">But one less gun in Wisconsin would have made a big difference to 7 or more people the other day and I am sure you will find a story somewhere in the media in the last few weeks about a child shooting someone 'by accident' with a gun that was in a house for..... protection????</FONT></P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>The woman was protected by a restraining order. She is dead. If she was protected with a gun maybe not.</P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 10:46:46 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255555#M74093r30202012-10-24T10:46:46ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255569#M74099
<P><FONT size="3">Although I have a high value of human life, I have a pretty low opinion of human behavior in general. That`s why I`m not big on putting groups on pedestal, look at the deal with that scumball coach Sandusky, people worshipped him and just look what was happening behind the scenes.&nbsp; Look at the atrocities committed by the Marxist Bleus&nbsp;in Vendee war during the French Revolution, good Christians one moment turned extremely nasty the next.&nbsp; This is why you want to be well armed when your door is kicked in.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 11:22:51 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255569#M74099BA Deere2012-10-24T11:22:51ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255585#M74105
<P>The Crusaders were another good example of "good Christians". &nbsp;When your door is kicked in, hopefully, it won't be the cops at the wrong house and you are shot dead with a gun in your hands!</P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 11:57:53 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255585#M74105schnurrbart2012-10-24T11:57:53ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255599#M74108
<P><FONT size="3">The Crusaders were good Christians, without them you`d be speaking Moslem today.&nbsp; Yes, if someone kicks in my door, someone is going to die, if it`s me I`m at peace with that, it beats living as a slave. </FONT></P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 12:47:03 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255599#M74108BA Deere2012-10-24T12:47:03ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255603#M74110
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="136"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P><FONT size="3">The Crusaders were good Christians, without them you`d be speaking Moslem today.&nbsp; Yes, if someone kicks in my door, someone is going to die, if it`s me I`m at peace with that, it beats living as a slave. </FONT></P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>Kudos. Best post of the year.</P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 12:53:53 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255603#M74110r30202012-10-24T12:53:53ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255705#M74139
<P>The system failed..this guy should have been in jail but the cops were to compliant.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><A href="http://www.examiner.com/article/wisconsin-spa-victims-were-not-killed-by-loophole-private-gun-sale-laws" target="_blank">http://www.examiner.com/article/wisconsin-spa-victims-were-not-killed-by-loophole-private-gun-sale-laws</A></P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:27:49 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255705#M74139Taylor ECIL2012-10-24T17:27:49ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255725#M74146
<P>I totally disagree.&nbsp; If one is to keep guns in their home, then their 12 year old kids **bleep** sure better posess skills to handle them safely and correctly.&nbsp; I'm not sure at what age hunter safety is recommended here, but I'd hazard a guess several 12 year olds take the class annually.&nbsp; I know of several 12 year olds that hunt with their dads locally.&nbsp; People don't blink an&nbsp;eye over putting helmets and shoulder pads on their 12 year old sons to play junior high football.&nbsp; Why shouldn't those same sons&nbsp;posess skills to handle guns?&nbsp; &nbsp;</P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 18:52:13 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255725#M74146GoredHusker2012-10-24T18:52:13ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255727#M74147
<P>I've always been under the impression that by law cops have to knock on a door first and state who they are.&nbsp; Why in the heck would someone if the cops were at the wrong house make the cops kick in their door?&nbsp; Why would they have a gun in their hand?&nbsp;</P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 18:55:55 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255727#M74147GoredHusker2012-10-24T18:55:55ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255747#M74153
<P>I imagine for safety reasons the amount of time between they announce that they are cops and the and they kick the door in is sometimes short. Don't want the bad guys to be able to get their weapons out and shoot. That being said they have broken into the wrong house before. They aren't perfect.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><A href="http://the7thpwr.wordpress.com/accidental-police-shootings/" target="_blank">http://the7thpwr.wordpress.com/accidental-police-shootings/</A></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>I believe that Indiana has a law that if you shoot cops as they break into your house, and it is the wrong house, the police have no legal recourse against you. I believe that has been passed in the last 5 years.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>I also believe they have no knock warrants.</P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 19:31:06 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255747#M74153Taylor ECIL2012-10-24T19:31:06ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255751#M74155
<P>Because maybe they got the wrong address which happened a few months ago and the guy got out of bed with a rifle and the cops shot him. &nbsp;In fact just google "cops shoot wrong man". &nbsp;One guy was shot and killed because the cops knocked on his door at O dark 30 and because of the hour, he took his handgun with him. &nbsp;When he opened the door, the cops saw the gun and shot him.</P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 19:32:10 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255751#M74155schnurrbart2012-10-24T19:32:10ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255759#M74156
<P>Yeah, right!</P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 19:33:42 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255759#M74156schnurrbart2012-10-24T19:33:42ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255773#M74158
<P>That would be a major lawsuit toward the cops in my opinion. We are still a free country and I am still allowed a gun in my house. If you live in an area that is high crime I would probably bring a gun to my door also. That doesn't give the police the right to shoot....unless I threaten them, refuse to comply to their instructions (i.e. put the gun down, get on the ground) or have the gun pointed at them when I open the door. The police ought to announce who they are prior to me opening the door if I asked who they were, and let me confirm who they are if there has been problems of&nbsp;bad guys&nbsp;breaking into houses announcing they were police. Just as civilians shooting innocent people is unacceptable so is police shooting innocents are also.</P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 19:53:05 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255773#M74158Taylor ECIL2012-10-24T19:53:05ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255777#M74159
<P>If they are coming to arrest a druggie or a murderer and they have the wrong address???? &nbsp;If they shoot you or your wife, a lawsuit isn't &nbsp;going to ease the pain.</P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 19:57:57 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255777#M74159schnurrbart2012-10-24T19:57:57ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255783#M74161
<P>&nbsp;No, no amount of money would....but hopefully it hurts them enough that they will make sure it doesn't happen to anybody else.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><A href="http://www.popfi.com/2010/03/19/cops-raid-wrong-house-over-50-times/" target="_blank">http://www.popfi.com/2010/03/19/cops-raid-wrong-house-over-50-times/</A></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>This is unacceptable, and those responsible should be fired.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 20:06:29 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255783#M74161Taylor ECIL2012-10-24T20:06:29ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255835#M74177
<P>You cannot help yourself by placing justification for the needless slaughter of over 11,000 people each year in the US by people who have access to guns needlessly.&nbsp; There is not one single instance whereby guns should saturate your society like they do.&nbsp; The gun problem in your country is a state of mind and a relic of the cowboy wild west days. If also appears to the rest of the world that immaturity and lack of desire to stop this senseless slaughter lies squarely on the shoulders of the NRA and the nongs who are still wrapped in the 2nd amendment.</P>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 23:43:58 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255835#M74177gough whitlam2012-10-24T23:43:58ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255851#M74184
I know of no one shot by a gun in the house, personally. However, I can come up with a lengthy list of people bit, oe even mauled by a dog in the house. Should we ban all dogs?Wed, 24 Oct 2012 23:56:48 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255851#M74184Nebrfarmr2012-10-24T23:56:48ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255855#M74186
You are wrongly blaming the guns, for what killers do. If you magically got rid of every gun in this country, but left everything else the same, I bet the murder rate would barely go down.
Did you know, that in areas overrun with illegal aliens, as much as 90% of the murders are committed by non-citizens, here illegally? How can you blame the American culture, for something done, by someone not of that culture?
Also, over half the killings in this country are committed by repeat killers, and over 3/4 of murders by people with a criminal record, who by all rights should be in jail, had they had to serve their full sentence. Yet, I keep hearing it is all the guns fault.Thu, 25 Oct 2012 00:02:30 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255855#M74186Nebrfarmr2012-10-25T00:02:30ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255859#M74188
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="79"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<BLOCKQUOTE>The woman was protected by a restraining order. She is dead. If she was protected with a gun maybe not.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">So because one person used a gun you choose to arm everyone instead of get rid of the one gun that did the killing?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">You then have many guns to do killing.</FONT></P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 00:26:15 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255859#M74188Canuck_22012-10-25T00:26:15ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255865#M74190
<P>good logic canuck....It has worked so well on banning drugs....no body has drugs in this country since we banned them and declared war on them.</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 00:38:19 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255865#M74190Taylor ECIL2012-10-25T00:38:19ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255873#M74192
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="2362"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />You are wrongly blaming the guns, for what killers do. If you magically got rid of every gun in this country, but left everything else the same, I bet the murder rate would barely go down. Did you know, that in areas overrun with illegal aliens, as much as 90% of the murders are committed by non-citizens, here illegally? How can you blame the American culture, for something done, by someone not of that culture? Also, over half the killings in this country are committed by repeat killers, and over 3/4 of murders by people with a criminal record, who by all rights should be in jail, had they had to serve their full sentence. Yet, I keep hearing it is all the guns fault.<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Where is the statistic that shows 90% of murders committed by non-citizens?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">I know there was someone who assumed Mexicans in the US would kill at the same rate as murders occured in Mexico and came up with a high rate but if we made the same assumption for US citizens living in Canada at the US murder rate those estimated 1.5 million people would kill 63 Canadians each year at a rate of 4.2 per 100,000 rather than at the 1.6 rate in Canada.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">So US citizens could be assumed to have been responsible for 12% of the murders in Canada.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Were they?&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">I doubt it.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">As for 'half the killings being committed by repeat killers' I could not believe it so did some searching and finally found this</FONT></P>
<P>The&nbsp;<A title="United States Department of Justice" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Justice" target="_blank">United States Department of Justice</A>&nbsp;tracked the rearrest, re-conviction, and re-incarceration of former inmates for 3 years after their release from prisons in 15 states in 1994.<SUP id="cite_ref-15" class="reference"><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism#cite_note-15" target="_blank">[16]</A></SUP>Key findings include:</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<UL>
<LI>Released prisoners with the highest rearrest rates were robbers (70.2%), burglars (74.0%), larcenists (74.6%), motor vehicle thieves (78.8%), those in prison for possessing or selling stolen property (77.4%), and those in prison for possessing, using, or selling illegal weapons (70.2%).</LI>
</UL>
<UL>
<LI>Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and <FONT size="3"><U><STRONG><EM><FONT color="#0000FF">1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide.</FONT> </EM></STRONG></U></FONT>These are the lowest rates of re-arrest for the same category of crime.</LI>
</UL>
<UL>
<LI>The 272,111 offenders discharged in 1994 had accumulated 4.1 million arrest charges before their most recent imprisonment and another 744,000 charges within 3 years of release.</LI>
</UL>
<P><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism</A></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">The highlight in <FONT color="#0000FF">blue&nbsp;<FONT color="#000000">was done by me since I do not think that figure would substantiate your number of repeat killers</FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><FONT color="#0000FF"><FONT color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><FONT color="#0000FF"><FONT color="#000000">Read up on studies and they will show you that without guns murder does not happen as often or as easily.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><FONT color="#0000FF"><FONT color="#000000">Lots of reasons like the murderer is able to stay further away from the victim and so safer so will find it easier to ccommit the deed.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><FONT color="#0000FF"><FONT color="#000000">A victim is not as able to outrun a bullet as a different weapon so is less likely to even try to escape.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><FONT color="#0000FF"><FONT color="#000000">And then the psycholgic reasoning.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><FONT color="#0000FF"><FONT color="#000000">Having a gun does increase the lieklihood of murder taking place.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
</BLOCKQUOTE>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 01:10:12 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255873#M74192Canuck_22012-10-25T01:10:12ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255875#M74193
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="5119"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>good logic canuck....It has worked so well on banning drugs....no body has drugs in this country since we banned them and declared war on them.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Probably more drugs sold 'legally' in stores than 'illegally' on a street corner.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">So if it is so ineffective why do you continue to fund drug lord by keeping them illegal?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Drugs only kill the user unlike guns which are more likely to kill the innocent.</FONT></P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 01:12:53 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255875#M74193Canuck_22012-10-25T01:12:53ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255887#M74198
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="35"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="79"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<BLOCKQUOTE>The woman was protected by a restraining order. She is dead. If she was protected with a gun maybe not.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">So because one person used a gun you choose to arm everyone instead of get rid of the one gun that did the killing?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">You then have many guns to do killing.</FONT></P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>The guy was going to kill his wife. If he didn't have a gun he would use a knife. The one gun did not kill. The one person with the only gun did. </P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 01:21:18 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255887#M74198r30202012-10-25T01:21:18ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255891#M74200
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="79"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>The guy was going to kill his wife. If he didn't have a gun he would use a knife. The one gun did not kill. The one person with the only gun did.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">But without a gun the others would have likely been safe AND the wife stood a better chance of surviving or escaping IF there had been no gun.</FONT></P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 01:23:33 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255891#M74200Canuck_22012-10-25T01:23:33ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255901#M74202
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="35"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="79"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>The guy was going to kill his wife. If he didn't have a gun he would use a knife. The one gun did not kill. The one person with the only gun did.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">But without a gun the others would have likely been safe AND the wife stood a better chance of surviving or escaping IF there had been no gun.</FONT></P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>No proof of that. He could have burned her house killing anyone inside.</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 01:26:47 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255901#M74202r30202012-10-25T01:26:47ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255947#M74215
What about the drug dealers, and gangs that support them?Thu, 25 Oct 2012 02:55:51 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255947#M74215Nebrfarmr2012-10-25T02:55:51ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255951#M74216
My bad, I meant repeat offenders, as in someone who had been convicted of another crime. As to the crimes by illegals, I do not Have a good search engine on the wifes iPad, but I will try to look it up tomorrow if I can.Thu, 25 Oct 2012 03:01:40 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255951#M74216Nebrfarmr2012-10-25T03:01:40ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255983#M74224
<P>You are doing it again. You are flippantly defending the indefensable.&nbsp; You use the analogy which best fits this scenario. Take all the guns out of society and they will not be shooting themselves for a start.&nbsp; Can't you see that or are you too dumb to admit it.</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 05:53:25 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255983#M74224gough whitlam2012-10-25T05:53:25ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255985#M74225
<P>Save yourself some further unintentional embarrassment by Canuck and stop digging yourself into a hole.</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 05:54:58 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255985#M74225gough whitlam2012-10-25T05:54:58ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255995#M74229
<P>And you're to stupid to admit that you can't remove all guns out of society. The only people you punish are those that don't commit crime.</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 10:55:20 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/255995#M74229Taylor ECIL2012-10-25T10:55:20ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256009#M74235
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="209"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>You are doing it again. You are flippantly defending the indefensable.&nbsp; You use the analogy which best fits this scenario. Take all the guns out of society and they will not be shooting themselves for a start.&nbsp; Can't you see that or are you too dumb to admit it.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>Your goals and thinking is identical to that of Barack Obama, remove all guns from society.</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 10:50:49 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256009#M74235r30202012-10-25T10:50:49ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256017#M74239
<P>So, you are saying that psychos, killers, and drug dealers, would suddenly revert to law-abiding status, if the guns were taken away?</P>
<P>Or are you just saying that with no guns, no one would get shot?</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>If that is true, just make alcohol illegal, and there will be no more drunk drivers, or alcohol related crime.&nbsp;&nbsp; Oh, wait, we already tried that, care to guess how well that worked?</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:33:20 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256017#M74239Nebrfarmr2012-10-25T11:33:20ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256019#M74240
<P>Here are some stats, of what I was meaning.&nbsp; I mis-spoke when I said half of all murders are by repeat killers, I typed in killers instead of criminals, and it was my goof-up.&nbsp; I will not edit the above post, because doing so, would make your thread less credible, and I want to correct the facts, not just make myself look good.</P>
<P>As to the repeat offenders, I found this:</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><A href="http://www.volokh.com/posts/1238081250.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.volokh.com/posts/1238081250.shtml</A></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<DIV class="title">Who Are the Murderers (and Voluntary Manslaughterers)?</DIV>
<DIV class="post">
<P class="firstinpost">Are they mostly ordinary folks like you and me who just snap? Or are they disproportionately likely to have criminal records?</P>
<P>I know of no truly comprehensive data on this, but here's what we learn from the intentional homicide line in Justice Department's <A href="http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/fdluc/2004/fdluc04st.htm" target="_blank">Felony Defendants in Large Urban Counties, 2004</A> (a sample that is representative of the large urban counties that account for roughly half of the nation's violent crimes):</P>
<UL>
<LI>
<P><STRONG>83% had a prior adult arrest</STRONG> (compared to <A href="http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/sschis99.txt" target="_blank">likely 25% or so</A> of the adult U.S. population).</P>
</LI>
<LI>
<P><STRONG>76% had two or more</STRONG> prior adult arrests.</P>
</LI>
<LI>
<P><FONT color="#0000ff"><STRONG>55% had five or more prior adult arrests.</STRONG></FONT></P>
</LI>
<LI>
<P><STRONG>65%</STRONG> had a prior adult <FONT color="#0000ff"><STRONG>conviction.</STRONG></FONT></P>
</LI>
<LI>
<P>44% had a prior adult <FONT color="#0000ff"><STRONG>felony conviction</STRONG> </FONT>(compared to about 7.5% of the adult U.S. population, see Christopher Uggen et al., <EM>Citizenship, Democracy, and the Civic Reintegration of Criminal Offenders</EM>, 605 Annals Am. Acad. Pol. &amp; Soc. Sci. 281, 288 (2006)).</P>
</LI>
</UL>
<P>This does not include "arrests or convictions that occurred while the defendant was a juvenile" (I quote here from an e-mail from the author of the report). Since <A href="http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/oagetab.htm" target="_blank">nearly half</A> of all homicide offenders are 24 or under, the exclusion of juvenile arrests and convictions is thus likely to <STRONG>substantially undercount the actual arrest and conviction record</STRONG>. This also doesn't include arrests or convictions that the state effectively expunged or never logged, for instance because someone was allowed a "deferred adjudication," which is essentially probation in lieu of a conviction, so that no conviction would be entered if the probation is finished with no observed violations.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Now, on to the illegal aliens.&nbsp; I belive I said that the 90% figure, was in certain areas, I did not mean to imply at all it was nationwide.&nbsp;&nbsp; I was going by memory, and I may have confused warrants for homocide, as opposed to total homocides, but the numbers still are staggering.&nbsp; 1,200 to 1,500 murders, in one city alone, known to be by illegal aliens.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><A href="http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html" target="_blank">http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html</A></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><SPAN class="cap">P</SPAN>olice commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples:</P>
<P>• In Los Angeles,<FONT color="#0000ff"><STRONG> 95 percent</STRONG> </FONT>of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.</P>
</DIV>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:42:41 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256019#M74240Nebrfarmr2012-10-25T11:42:41ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256023#M74242
<P>I clearly stated I used the wrong word, in the post.&nbsp; I strive to correct that.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>However, in a debate, I wish to see, not only that you disagree with me, but also WHY you disagree with me.&nbsp; If Canuk can show me that I am wrong, I may very well take his side in the matter.&nbsp; <BR />I am not a blind partisan, and I do not strive to just win on, or embarrass whom I am debating, but to find the best answer to the problem.&nbsp; You may not belive me, but if you, or Canuk, can prove to me, using factual data, that your position is correct, I would join your side on this issue.</P>
<P>However, I have found no data, anywhere, that more gun control, has done anything to reduce crime, in the United States.</P>
<P>In fact, I have brought up several times, and no one has yet explained, about how the few places in the US, that have made gun ownership mandatory, have shown sharp drops in all crime, including murders.&nbsp; Take Kennesaw, Georgia, as an example.&nbsp; Kennesaw is located near Atlanta, a city with a high homocide rate, but in the many years since Kennesaw has more or less made gun ownership a requirement of living there, there have been ZERO deaths by gunshots.&nbsp; No murders, no justifiable homocides, not even a death by accidental shooting.&nbsp; If the presense of guns causes deaths, why is it so safe, to live there?</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:52:01 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256023#M74242Nebrfarmr2012-10-25T11:52:01ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256055#M74250
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="79"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="35"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="79"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>The guy was going to kill his wife. If he didn't have a gun he would use a knife. The one gun did not kill. The one person with the only gun did.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">But without a gun the others would have likely been safe AND the wife stood a better chance of surviving or escaping IF there had been no gun.</FONT></P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>No proof of that. He could have burned her house killing anyone inside.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Lots of possibilities and without a gun she, as well as the others killed with the gun, would have had a better chance to escape.</FONT></P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:01:10 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256055#M74250Canuck_22012-10-25T13:01:10ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256063#M74252
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="79"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="209"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>You are doing it again. You are flippantly defending the indefensable.&nbsp; You use the analogy which best fits this scenario. Take all the guns out of society and they will not be shooting themselves for a start.&nbsp; Can't you see that or are you too dumb to admit it.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>Your goals and thinking is identical to that of Barack Obama, remove all guns from society.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">I do not follow all your politics so, is that a policy of Mr Obama's or just an idea that those opposed to him for any number of reasons throw out there to get the 30 % of your population that own guns to vote against him?</FONT></P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:05:41 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256063#M74252Canuck_22012-10-25T13:05:41ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256065#M74253
<P>It sounds to me like we need to take the guns away from cops then because obviously they shot first and then asked questions. &nbsp;</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:06:15 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256065#M74253GoredHusker2012-10-25T13:06:15ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256067#M74254
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="2362"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>So, you are saying that psychos, killers, and drug dealers, would suddenly revert to law-abiding status, if the guns were taken away?</P>
<P>Or are you just saying that with no guns, no one would get shot?</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>If that is true, just make alcohol illegal, and there will be no more drunk drivers, or alcohol related crime.&nbsp;&nbsp; Oh, wait, we already tried that, care to guess how well that worked?</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">You know you will never stop all murders BUT guns make murder easier and more likely to be successful when the attempt is made.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Then add in the errors that cause injury and 'accidental' death that happen with guns.</FONT></P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:08:09 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256067#M74254Canuck_22012-10-25T13:08:09ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256069#M74255
<P>I guess you're right. &nbsp;We should try to adopt failed policies of the past and continue to beat our heads against a brick wall with regards to guns. &nbsp;Let's go ahead and ban them like we did with alcohol. &nbsp;Let's make them illegal just like we are drugs and see if we can be any more successfull with the war on guns than we are the war on drugs. &nbsp;Let me get this straight, we're going to start a new war because we've bun so successful with our war on drugs and our war on illegal aliens. &nbsp;We'll just call Helicopter Ben and get him to warm up the printing presses further because the war on guns probably won't be any cheaper than the war on drugs.</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:15:01 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256069#M74255GoredHusker2012-10-25T13:15:01ZRe: More statshttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256071#M74256
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">NEB; I think the problem with quoting % and picking some juridictions are covered in this article.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><A href="http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/2012/04/30/are-americans-safer-in-mexico-than-at-home/" target="_blank">http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/2012/04/30/are-americans-safer-in-mexico-than-at-home/</A></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">It starts by pointing out that it is safer in parts of Mexico than in parts of the USA.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="3" color="#008000"><SPAN>What you don’t get from most reports in the US is statistical evidence that Americans are&nbsp;</SPAN><EM>less&nbsp;</EM><SPAN>likely to face violence on average in Mexico than at home, particularly when you zero in on Mexico’s most popular travel destinations. For example, the gateway to Disney World,&nbsp;</SPAN><A href="http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/table-8/10tbl08fl.xls" target="_blank"><FONT color="#008000">Orlando</FONT></A><SPAN>, saw 7.5 murders per 100,000 residents in 2010 per the FBI; this is higher than Cancun or Puerto Vallarta, with rates of 1.83 and 5.9 respectively, per a Stanford University report (see&nbsp;</SPAN><A href="http://www.stanford.edu/~dkronick/mexico_crime/" target="_blank"><FONT color="#008000">data visualization here</FONT></A><SPAN>, summarized on this&nbsp;</SPAN><A href="http://issuu.com/mexi-go/docs/finalmexi-gowinter2012?mode=window" target="_blank"><FONT color="#008000">chart, page 21</FONT></A><SPAN>). Yet in March, the&nbsp;</SPAN><A href="http://txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/pr030612.pdf" target="_blank"><FONT color="#008000">Texas Department of Public Safety</FONT></A><SPAN>&nbsp;advised against ‘spring break’ travel&nbsp;</SPAN><EM>anywhere</EM><SPAN>&nbsp;in Mexico, a country the size of the UK, France, Germany, Spain and Italy combined. Never mind that popular destinations like the Bahamas, Belize and Jamaica have far higher homicide rates (36, 42 and 52 per 100,000). Why the singular focus?</SPAN><SPAN><BR /><BR />Read more:&nbsp;<A href="http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/2012/04/30/are-americans-safer-in-mexico-than-at-home/#ixzz2AJf4pOjR" target="_blank"><FONT color="#008000">http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/2012/04/30/are-americans-safer-in-mexico-than-at-home/#ixzz2AJf4pOjR</FONT></A></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="3" color="#008000"><SPAN><FONT color="#008000">&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><SPAN><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif">And I would think the same could be said for your jurisdictions that make guns mandatory.</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="3" color="#008000"><SPAN><FONT color="#008000"><BR /></FONT></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><SPAN><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif">I doubt that all jurisdictions in the US where guns are not manadatory have a murder in them.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:15:01 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256071#M74256Canuck_22012-10-25T13:15:01ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256073#M74257
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="110"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>I guess you're right. &nbsp;We should try to adopt failed policies of the past and continue to beat our heads against a brick wall with regards to guns. &nbsp;Let's go ahead and ban them like we did with alcohol. &nbsp;Let's make them illegal just like we are drugs and see if we can be any more successfull with the war on guns than we are the war on drugs. &nbsp;Let me get this straight, we're going to start a new war because we've bun so successful with our war on drugs and our war on illegal aliens. &nbsp;We'll just call Helicopter Ben and get him to warm up the printing presses further because the war on guns probably won't be any cheaper than the war on drugs.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">With so many guns already in your country you will never 'ban them' and be rid of them.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">There are lots of reason to control them and reduce the idea that a gun is going to save everyone from gun toting people.</FONT></P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:18:07 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256073#M74257Canuck_22012-10-25T13:18:07ZRe: More statshttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256093#M74261
<P>I am not trying to prove stastictics, so much as&nbsp;I am trying to make a point.&nbsp; If the mere presence of guns, and their availability to people, is the cause of the gun violence, places like Kennesaw, should have blood running in the streets, on a daily basis.&nbsp; Instead, it is&nbsp;the only&nbsp;town of its size I can think of in the US, that has gone decades without any kind of gunshot death.&nbsp; I am trying to make the point, that it is the killers, that kill, and not the presense of the guns.&nbsp; Someone who is&nbsp;bound to kill someone else, will naturally use the tool that makes the job easiest, hence the use of the gun, just as someone who needs to tighten pipes, will most likely use a pipe wrench as the best&nbsp;tool to do the job, as opposed to something else.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>The murder by illegal aliens, is to counter the point that it is all the fault of the USA gun cultuer.&nbsp; I was trying to ask, how the culture of the US can be blamed for all&nbsp;the killings, when murders by illegal aliens,&nbsp;in some areas, make up 90% of the warrants out for homocide?&nbsp; How can you blame US culture, for something done, by someone not of the US, and not here legally?&nbsp; I guess one could say that the culture of letting violent people roam the streets, could be to blame, but if you were to poll gun owners on their opinions of that, you would find out, it goes against their beliefs, far more than it goes with them.&nbsp; Instead, it is the crimial element, that will commit crimes regardless of the law, and&nbsp;who use a gun as their tool, that are giving the guns a bad name.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>I can use my neighborhood as an example.&nbsp; I can think of no household, in this area, that does not have at least one gun in it somewhere, and most have more than one.&nbsp; Yet, in the last 30+ years, we have had exactly ONE homocide, and one attempted homocide, in the entire county, and both were stabbings.&nbsp; If you want to go back to&nbsp;the&nbsp;homocide before that (I only know of two by memory), you'd have to go back something like 50 or 60&nbsp;years, and that was a strangulation (after a rape, when the girl started screaming), unless you count the perpetrator of the strangulation, who was shot by deputies, after escaping from jail.&nbsp; I don't belive the presense of guns, had anything to do, with either murder.</P>
<P>If restricting gun ownership is the answer, why was Washington, D.C. called the 'murder capital' of the entire USA, at the time when they had just about the strongest gun laws in the entire nation?&nbsp;&nbsp; Shouldn't it have been the other way around?<BR />Some may say it is the guns, but&nbsp;I say it is the culture, and the criminal element.&nbsp;&nbsp; When culture degrades to the point, that violent acts occur, and in some cases even excused or tolerated, you are going to get more violent acts.&nbsp; I belive it is that simple.&nbsp; The complicated part, is now that there are areas where it has degraded to that point, how do we make it better?</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:48:55 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256093#M74261Nebrfarmr2012-10-25T13:48:55ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256099#M74262
<P>In the county where I live, I know of only two murders.&nbsp; In neither case, was a gun used.&nbsp; One was a stabbing, one was strangulation.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Banning guns, does not seem to work.&nbsp; It is a nice theory, but does not seem to work, in practice.&nbsp; Here is an article, that I tend to agree with, with links to all the stats, in case you want to look them up.&nbsp; I boldened the part, that comes closest to paralelling my beliefs.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><A href="http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2009/03/27/stabbing-of-children-up-72-in-england-over-the-last-decade/" target="_blank">http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2009/03/27/stabbing-of-children-up-72-in-england-over-the-last-decade/</A></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>As <A href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5033430/Children-hospitalised-with-stab-wounds-up-72-per-cent-in-10-years.html" target="_blank">reported</A>, the number of children in the UK hospitalized with knife attack wounds is up 72% compared to 10 years ago (around when that country’s strict gun control laws were enacted).&nbsp; In other words, not only did <A href="http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/11/26/more-proof-that-handgun-bans-dont-work/" target="_blank">gun related crime rise after the gun ban</A>, but so did knife related crime:</P>
<P>As I’ve <A href="http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2009/01/13/british-gun-control-leaves-another-victim-defenseless-and-his-fiancee-in-mourning/" target="_blank">previously discussed</A>, Britain enacted a series of laws that bars most gun ownership, and and restricts the carrying of knives.&nbsp; British citizens who shoot criminals that break into their homes have been convicted of murder, and then denied parole because they showed no remorse for defending themselves, <EM>and would “<A href="http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/12/09/british-justice-shoot-criminals-in-your-own-home-and-go-to-jail-for-murder/" target="_blank">continue to pose a danger to any other burglars</A>.</EM>“&nbsp; Not surprisingly, <A href="http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/11/26/more-proof-that-handgun-bans-dont-work/" target="_blank">criminals increasingly ignore the gun control laws</A> and continue to commit their crimes against the now-defenseless victims.</P>
<P>The increase in the use of knives by criminals should not come as a surprise either.&nbsp; Britain’s problem is not the presence of gun, or the presence of knives, but instead the presence of criminals.&nbsp; The only way that the crime problem will be solved is to take steps to prevent children from growing up to be criminals, and to take the existing criminals off the street.&nbsp; The current approach of increasingly restrictive gun laws, which <A href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/olympics_2012/4162498.stm" target="_blank">prevent even the British Olympic pistol team from practicing in their own country</A>, are not working.</P>
<P><FONT color="#ff00ff"><STRONG><A href="http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2009/02/01/british-police-take-on-internet-knife-gangs/" target="_blank"><FONT color="#ff00ff">Focusing on inanimate objects</FONT></A>, rather than the intentional actions of criminals, will not address the problem of crime.&nbsp;</STRONG></FONT> It is time for politicians on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean to realize this, and stop trying to ban guns, which are <A href="http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/11/28/there-is-no-substitute-for-a-gun/" target="_blank">the most effective self defense tool yet invented by humanity</A>.</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:55:05 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256099#M74262Nebrfarmr2012-10-25T13:55:05ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256103#M74264
<P>Why don't we focus on the criminals?<BR />I posted links to the stats, about half the murders in the US, are by people with prior convictions, if I remember right, over 40% were felons.&nbsp; Take care of them, and murders drop by half, or more.</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:57:07 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256103#M74264Nebrfarmr2012-10-25T13:57:07ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256111#M74265
<P>I work with hunter safety education, and the stats show, that as we educate more people about safe gun handling, the accident rate, goes down.&nbsp; According to the guy in charge, he said that accidental injury or death by firearms is at or near the lowest rate ever.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>One instructor compared it to electricity.&nbsp; If you took some people who knew nothing about electricity, and gave them a frayed extension cord, and let them try to figure the danger out for themself, would they not be far more likely to hurt themselves, or someone else, than someone properly educated in its safety?</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 14:01:16 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256111#M74265Nebrfarmr2012-10-25T14:01:16ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256119#M74267
<P>Some stats put that higher:&nbsp; <A href="http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_Americans_own_guns" target="_blank">http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_Americans_own_guns</A></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>At the end of 2010 it was estimated that 45% of Americans own guns. If you took the percentage of guns to the number of Americans, the number rises to 90%.&nbsp; - snip -</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>However, many gun owners support Obama, with the idea that any gun controls he may or may not sign onto, will either not affect them, or the benefits of voting for him, will outweigh any negatives of gun restrictions.&nbsp; Gun owners are not&nbsp; the homogonous group, that all fall into lockstep, that many portray them to be.</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 14:05:46 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256119#M74267Nebrfarmr2012-10-25T14:05:46ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256151#M74272
<P>I believe you will find most U.S. citizens do not have the idea that a gun is going to save them.&nbsp; Most of my friends that have a concealed weapon so that they can throw a gun either under the seat or behind the seat of their pickup to shoot varmits.&nbsp; It isn't with the idea that it will save them from a gun toting thug.&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>It's been a while since I last purchased a gun, but my understanding is there is gun control.&nbsp; In Nebraska, we have to have a permit obtained from the sheriff's office in order to purchase a handgun.&nbsp;</P>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 15:09:17 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256151#M74272GoredHusker2012-10-25T15:09:17ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256255#M74309
You need the permit to get any firearm, if you want to walk out the door with it, in Nebraska. The handgun certificate is also used for the instant background check.Thu, 25 Oct 2012 18:38:01 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256255#M74309Nebrfarmr2012-10-25T18:38:01ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256499#M74375
<P>You are right.&nbsp; Hand them out on street corners for all the kids to have.&nbsp; Make them a compulsory acquirement when you by a big mac. Mandate them at birth and at first day of school.&nbsp; You just don't get it do you?</P>Fri, 26 Oct 2012 06:19:02 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256499#M74375gough whitlam2012-10-26T06:19:02ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256501#M74376
<P>I need no more proof than the fact when Australia handed in their guns there has not been anything like a massacre, which incidentally, happens with monotonous regularity in your country. All your questions about debating and justification for this and that is bullsh-t.&nbsp; You do not have the foresight to see all the US can be excused of the stupidity of having the country awash with guns.&nbsp; Oh no&nbsp; -&nbsp; you have that blessed 2nd amend. And then there is the testosterone thing as well.&nbsp;We need them to defeat the government - what bullsh-t.&nbsp;Personal protection - another lie.&nbsp; Yeah sure - you are so brainwashed into thinking you need them, it is now hereditary.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>Fri, 26 Oct 2012 06:25:21 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256501#M74376gough whitlam2012-10-26T06:25:21ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256513#M74382
<P><EM>And how many countries do ypou have bordering your country. That smuggle guns, drugs and who knows what else across. That have tunnels dug to bring some pof those smuggled products. Do you have mexican drug cartels setting up gangs in your country? Are they killing people in the streets? In Chicago alot of the killings are gang related, heck probably in most big cities. If you think they are going to turn in their guns because you ask pretty please, your a bigger idiot than I think you are...and that really isn't possible. If youthink they are not going to smuggle guns or ammo into this country because you passed a law well... see above comment about&nbsp; you. Gee Canada has a pretty friendly neighbor, Austrailia doesn't have any neighbors. Being able to to say we did it why can't you is easy when yoy don't have SA sending their undesirables into your country.</EM></P>Fri, 26 Oct 2012 09:36:10 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256513#M74382Taylor ECIL2012-10-26T09:36:10ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256523#M74384
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="35"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="79"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="209"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>You are doing it again. You are flippantly defending the indefensable.&nbsp; You use the analogy which best fits this scenario. Take all the guns out of society and they will not be shooting themselves for a start.&nbsp; Can't you see that or are you too dumb to admit it.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>Your goals and thinking is identical to that of Barack Obama, remove all guns from society.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">I do not follow all your politics so, is that a policy of Mr Obama's or just an idea that those opposed to him for any number of reasons throw out there to get the 30 % of your population that own guns to vote against him?</FONT></P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>Check his voting record.</P>Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:43:52 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256523#M74384r30202012-10-26T10:43:52ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256583#M74402
<P>OK, I will humor you, and give you an opportunity to actually prove your point, rather than just using sound bites and hyperbole.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Can you show me an example, of someplace in the United States, where stronger gun control laws, have reduced murders, or even crimes in general?</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>I gave you an example of Kennesaw, Georgia, where after making gun ownership mandatory, and had the&nbsp;gun death rate drop to zero. &nbsp;(in case you are wondering, I belive a class on safe gun handling is also mandatory, which probably is the part of the law that is the most effective).&nbsp;</P>Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:18:04 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256583#M74402Nebrfarmr2012-10-26T14:18:04ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256913#M74499
<P>In typical Jewish fashion, I will reply with a question.&nbsp; Can you show me a place in the US where they have given their guns back in an attempt to stop the violence? Like Australia.</P>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 07:32:37 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256913#M74499gough whitlam2012-10-27T07:32:37ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256929#M74506
<P>I already did.&nbsp; Kennesaw, Georgia, made gun ownership mandatory, and their rate of gun deaths, from all causes, dropped to zero.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Your turn.</P>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 10:27:30 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256929#M74506Nebrfarmr2012-10-27T10:27:30ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256931#M74507
<P>I think he wants you to do the research for him. He wants you to find instances in the USA where people gave up their guns and crime went down. Like the pissant student asking the professor to do his research for him.</P>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 10:51:37 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256931#M74507Taylor ECIL2012-10-27T10:51:37ZRe: More statshttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256967#M74524
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Neb;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Washingtom with strong gun laws makes no difference if bordering jurisdictions do not have the same laws.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Look at Canada with stronger laws than the US and the big problem here is guns smuggled in from the USA.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">And that is across an international border.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Separate city or state laws will make no difference</FONT></P>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:18:09 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256967#M74524Canuck_22012-10-27T12:18:09ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256969#M74525
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">SAme here, no muders by gun that I know of but a couple of 'accidental' shootings when hunting.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">They tell me the house we live in was where 1 man died a number of years agoa after a shotgun accidentaly discharged and virtually shot off his leg.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">But of course that was not the fault of the gun, however if there nad been no gun............</FONT></P>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:22:09 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256969#M74525Canuck_22012-10-27T12:22:09ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256973#M74527
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Gough;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Your statement covers it,</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">"You just don't get it do you?"</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">They argue for more guns, why? because they might see a varmint or maybe a burglar might come into the house.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">The existance of a gun increases the likelyhood of an 'accident' and for what % possibility of the gun ever being needed for a legitimate purpose?</FONT></P>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:27:12 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256973#M74527Canuck_22012-10-27T12:27:12ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256975#M74528
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="5119"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P><EM>And how many countries do ypou have bordering your country. That smuggle guns, drugs and who knows what else across. That have tunnels dug to bring some pof those smuggled products. Do you have mexican drug cartels setting up gangs in your country? Are they killing people in the streets? In Chicago alot of the killings are gang related, heck probably in most big cities. If you think they are going to turn in their guns because you ask pretty please, your a bigger idiot than I think you are...and that really isn't possible. If youthink they are not going to smuggle guns or ammo into this country because you passed a law well... see above comment about&nbsp; you. Gee Canada has a pretty friendly neighbor, Austrailia doesn't have any neighbors. Being able to to say we did it why can't you is easy when yoy don't have SA sending their undesirables into your country.</EM></P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Hope you realize that the big problem in Canada is claimed over and over is from smuggled guns from our neighbour, the USA.</FONT></P>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:30:25 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256975#M74528Canuck_22012-10-27T12:30:25ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256979#M74529
<P>&nbsp;Toews called the long-gun registry a "failed boondoggle."</P>
<P>"There is no evidence that it has stopped a single crime or saved a single life."</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><A href="http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/11/15/ending-gun-registry-firearms-trafficking-memo-ottawa_n_1094250.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/11/15/ending-gun-registry-firearms-trafficking-memo-ottawa_n_1094250.html</A></P>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:44:10 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256979#M74529Taylor ECIL2012-10-27T12:44:10ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256983#M74531
<P>It was the fault of someone not checking to be sure the gun was unloaded.&nbsp; Just because something 'bad' happens, does not mean it it always something's fault.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>My next door neighbor died in the cattle water tank, just a couple months ago.</P>
<P><BR />Was it the fault of water, or the tank?</P>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:50:23 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256983#M74531Nebrfarmr2012-10-27T12:50:23ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256991#M74534
<P>I am not arguing for 'more' guns, in the sense that&nbsp;you are implying.&nbsp;&nbsp;You guys are putting those words in my mouth.&nbsp; What I am arguing, is that restricting gun ownership, does not reduce crime in this country.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>I am arguing, that NO WHERE, in the United States, has stricter gun laws, ever lowered crime.&nbsp; To reduce crime, you need to reduce criminals, and criminal behavior.&nbsp; There are, however, plenty of instances, where LAW ABIDING citizens, had restrictions eased, so that they could LEGALLY own, and LEGALLY carry firearms, and then the crime rate went down.</P>
<P>You are both arguing theory, of what would work in this country, which has not been followed by any actual evidence that I am aware of.</P>
<P><BR />If there were a rash of break-ins, would you be blaming crowbars?</P>
<P>Would 'eliminating access to crowbars' put an end to the problem?</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Or, is it a symptom, of a bigger problem.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:55:22 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/256991#M74534Nebrfarmr2012-10-27T12:55:22ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257295#M74610
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="2362"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>It was the fault of someone not checking to be sure the gun was unloaded.&nbsp; Just because something 'bad' happens, does not mean it it always something's fault.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>My next door neighbor died in the cattle water tank, just a couple months ago.</P>
<P><BR />Was it the fault of water, or the tank?</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">May have been a fault in safety procedures BUT if there is no purpose to have a gun why take the risk of keeping one.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">And before you start with the 'protection from bad guys' argument how many people have ever or will ever use their gun to protect themselves?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">The % is probably very low while the risk of having the gun is high.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Even suicide rates are higher in homes with guns and the success rate is higher with guns.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">There is a cost to having a gun in a home.</FONT></P>Sun, 28 Oct 2012 12:05:53 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257295#M74610Canuck_22012-10-28T12:05:53ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257297#M74611
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">I do not think gun control will work in your country (and it has to be country wide to be successful at any time) because of the attitude ingrained in your culture thaat guns are the answer to all problems.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">there is no way one jurisdiction can control guns when neighbouring jurisdictions have no contols.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Look at how many guns are smuggled across the international border into Canada from the USA and you can see how there can be no control across a city boundary or even a state border.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Crowbars are the tool and few guns are able to break down a door BUT a gun will kill many more people quicker and easier than a crowbar will.</FONT></P>Sun, 28 Oct 2012 12:11:24 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257297#M74611Canuck_22012-10-28T12:11:24ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257299#M74612
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="5119"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>&nbsp;Toews called the long-gun registry a "failed boondoggle."</P>
<P>"There is no evidence that it has stopped a single crime or saved a single life."</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><A href="http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/11/15/ending-gun-registry-firearms-trafficking-memo-ottawa_n_1094250.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/11/15/ending-gun-registry-firearms-trafficking-memo-ottawa_n_1094250.html</A></P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">And without the registry the police can no longer check to see if there is a registered gun in a household.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Courts can no longer check to see if a person has a registered gun when they prohibit them from having firearms.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">So everyone is assumed to have a gun until they prove otherwise.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">All this lack of security but nothing else is changed, you still have to have a license to buy or trade a gun and to purchase ammunition for the gun that you are licensed to have.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">BTW they also wasted all the money that wqs spent to set up the registry when they destroyed the data that had been collected. That was the waste of our $$.</FONT></P>Sun, 28 Oct 2012 12:15:38 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257299#M74612Canuck_22012-10-28T12:15:38ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257307#M74616
<P>Only honest people put their guns on the gun registry. The ones who are truly not afaid of going to jail won't have it on the list. Your registry hurts the lawabiding, not the criminals. But lawful ones are the ones you want to punish.</P>Sun, 28 Oct 2012 12:23:50 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257307#M74616Taylor ECIL2012-10-28T12:23:50ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257431#M74650
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="35"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="2362"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>It was the fault of someone not checking to be sure the gun was unloaded.&nbsp; Just because something 'bad' happens, does not mean it it always something's fault.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>My next door neighbor died in the cattle water tank, just a couple months ago.</P>
<P><BR />Was it the fault of water, or the tank?</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">May have been a fault in safety procedures BUT if there is no purpose to have a gun why take the risk of keeping one.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color="#0000ff">Do you have anything, in your house, that others can decide for you, if they have no purpose, and should stay?&nbsp; If people know the risks, and are willing to take them, why is it someone else's business?&nbsp; </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT color="#0000ff">Also, your 'may have been a fault in safety procedures' is a gross understatement.&nbsp; The #1 rule is to ALWAYS treat a gun as if it is loaded, and to NEVER point it at anything you aren't willing to have a bullet go flying at.&nbsp; I think that a simple safety course should be necessary to be a gun owner, but because someone is recless with an item, does not mean the item is at fault.&nbsp; Chances are, the gun did exactly what it was supposed to do.</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT color="#0000ff">If the guy was fixing his toaster, without unplugging it first, and got shocked, would you be fore removing electricity from his house?</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT color="#0000ff">Where is your data, to illustrate a higher suicide rate for gun owners?&nbsp; I did a quick search, and found this:</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT color="#0000ff"><A href="http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html" target="_blank">http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html</A></FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>"Gun death" statistics are frequently cited, in the manner above, to strongly <BR />suggest that guns are the cause behind the high violent death rate in the U.S. <BR />As in the case of the Los Angeles Times article, no mention is made that over <BR />half of those violent deaths are suicides. The CNN article mentions gun <BR />homicides and gun suicides, but fails to show us the <STRONG>total</STRONG> violent death <BR />rate of other countries, not just gun deaths. For example, in Japan, where gun <BR />ownership is rare, its<STRONG> total suicide rate is higher than our total suicide rate</STRONG>.</P>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT color="#0000ff">I willl concede, though that the percentage of successful suicides, goes up with firearm availability, if you read those stats.&nbsp; However the data I find that shows gun owners have increased rates of suicide attempts, is suggestive, at best.</FONT></P>Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:56:42 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257431#M74650Nebrfarmr2012-10-28T18:56:42ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257521#M74675
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">A toaster has a usefull purpose almost everyday and is quite safe unless someone really tries to overcome the safties on it.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">A gun, other than for rodents control or possibly hunting, has little to no use and dose contribute to making a home less safe.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color="#008000">Researchers from the Harvard School of Public Health examined nationwide statistics on suicide rates and gun ownership. They found that in the 15 states with the highest numbers of household gun owners, the suicide rate was double that of the 6 states with the lowest numbers of household gun owners. Population sizes among the states were similar.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color="#008000">The study authors stated that while only 5 percent of all suicide attempts involve guns, over 90 percent of all suicide attempts involving guns are fatal. By contrast, 75 percent of suicide attempts involve drug overdoses, but only 3 percent of these are fatal.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color="#008000">"Removing all&nbsp;<A class="link interlink" title="firearms" href="http://voices.yahoo.com/theme/490/firearms.html" rel="&amp;content_type=theme&amp;content_type_id=490" target="_blank"><FONT color="#008000">firearms</FONT></A>&nbsp;from one's home is one of the most effective and straightforward steps that household decision-makers can take to reduce the risk of suicide," Matthew Miller, assistant professor of health policy and management, said in a prepared statement. Miller led the research team.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color="#008000"><A href="http://voices.yahoo.com/suicide-rates-significantly-higher-states-with-297271.html?cat=72" target="_blank">http://voices.yahoo.com/suicide-rates-significantly-higher-states-with-297271.html?cat=72</A></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color="#008000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">First link on the search I did.</FONT></P>Mon, 29 Oct 2012 00:26:00 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257521#M74675Canuck_22012-10-29T00:26:00ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257529#M74679
<P><SPAN>A toaster has a usefull purpose almost everyday and is quite safe unless someone really tries to overcome the safties on it.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN>&nbsp;</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN>You haven't been around to many guns have you? All guns I have are quite safe unless you really try to overcome the safties on them.</SPAN></P>Mon, 29 Oct 2012 00:48:15 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257529#M74679Taylor ECIL2012-10-29T00:48:15ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257581#M74690
<P>A gun, used properly, is also quite safe.&nbsp;&nbsp; I have never seen a gun go off by itself.</P>Mon, 29 Oct 2012 03:21:25 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257581#M74690Nebrfarmr2012-10-29T03:21:25ZMy first linkhttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257585#M74691
<P>I did a yahoo search, on the question 'does gun ownership increase suicide rates', and this was my first link:</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><A href="http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvsuic.html" target="_blank">http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvsuic.html</A></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>The full body of relevant studies indicates that firearm availability measures are significantly and positively associated with rates of <EM>firearm</EM> suicide, but have no significant association with rates of <EM>total</EM>suicide.
<P>Of thirteen studies, nine found a significant association between gun levels and rates of <EM>gun</EM> suicide, but only one found a significant association between gun levels and rates of <EM>total</EM>suicides. The only study to find a measure of "gun availability" significantly associated with total suicide...used a measure of gun availability known to be invalid.</P>
<P>This pattern of results supports the view that where guns are less common, there is complete substitution of other methods of suicide, and that, while gun levels influence the choice of suicide method, they have no effect on the number of people who die in suicides.</P>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>As further evidence that gun ownership is not correlated with total suicide rates see <A href="http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html" target="_blank">international violent death rate table</A>. For example, Japan, where gun ownership is extremely low (less than 1% of households), total suicide is higher than in a high-gun ownership country like the United States.</P>
<P>From 1972 to 1995 the per capita gun stock in the U. S. increased by more than 50%. Gary Kleck in <EM>Targeting Guns</EM> (p 265) comments on this huge increase: "This change might be viewed as a sort of inadvertent natural experiment, in which Americans launched a massive and unprecedented civilian armaments program, probably the largest in world history. During this same period, the U.S. suicide rate was virtually constant, fluctuating only slightly within the narrow range from 11.8 to 13.0 suicides per 100,000 population...At most...this huge increase in the gun stock might have caused a mild increase in the percentage of suicides committed with guns, which shifted from 53.3 in 1972 to 60.3 in 1994, and thus a mild corresponding increase in the gun suicide rate." (See gun supply <A href="https://community.agriculture.com/t5/forums/replypage/board-id/agforum/message-id/gun_control_gcgvsupp.html" target="_blank">chart</A>).</P>
<P>In 1972 the suicide rate was 11.9 per 100,000. After this "arms build-up" the total suicide rate remained unchanged at 11.9 in 1995.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>Mon, 29 Oct 2012 03:30:34 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257585#M74691Nebrfarmr2012-10-29T03:30:34ZRe: My first linkhttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257651#M74709
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="2362"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>I did a yahoo search, on the question 'does gun ownership increase suicide rates', and this was my first link:</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><A href="http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvsuic.html" target="_blank">http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvsuic.html</A></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">There are other studies that question the "complete substitution of other methods of suicide"</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Different countries have different suicide rates for reasons other than availability of guns.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">My link pointed out that guns in a home increased the suicide death rate compared to homes without a gun.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">There are other contributing factors but this study isolates homes with guns and shows a higher rate in those homes.</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT color="#008000">the presence of guns in the home was associated with an increased risk of suicide among women as well as men, across all age strata, and among whites (<A class="viewType-Layer viewClass-ImageViewerLayer" href="http://www.nejm.org/action/showImage?doi=10.1056%2FNEJM199208133270705&amp;iid=t005" target="_blank"><FONT color="#008000">Table 5</FONT></A>)&nbsp;<SPAN class="table"><SPAN class="figureCaption">Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership, According to Subgroup.</SPAN></SPAN>). No subgroup analysis limited to nonwhites could be performed. Restricting the analysis to matched pairs with data obtained from case proxies who lived in the home of the victim verified the association. Another analysis restricted to case subjects with no history of depression or mental illness revealed that guns were even more strongly associated with suicide in this group than in the study population overall. An analysis stratified according to the method of suicide revealed that the link between gun ownership and suicide was entirely due to much higher odds of suicide with a firearm. Suicide by any other means was not significantly associated with the presence of a gun in the home (<A class="viewType-Layer viewClass-ImageViewerLayer" href="http://www.nejm.org/action/showImage?doi=10.1056%2FNEJM199208133270705&amp;iid=t005" target="_blank"><FONT color="#008000">Table 5</FONT></A>).</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color="#008000">Subsequent analyses revealed that case subjects in households with loaded firearms (odds ratio, 9.2) were at higher risk of suicide than those in homes with unloaded firearms (odds ratio, 3.3), as compared with those in homes with no guns (<A class="viewType-Layer viewClass-ImageViewerLayer" href="http://www.nejm.org/action/showImage?doi=10.1056%2FNEJM199208133270705&amp;iid=t006" target="_blank"><FONT color="#008000">Table 6</FONT></A>)</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color="#008000"><SPAN class="table"><SPAN class="figureCaption">Risk of Suicide in the Home in Relation to Various Patterns of Gun Ownership.</SPAN></SPAN>). Households with guns kept in an unlocked place were associated with a higher risk of suicide than households in which guns were kept in a locked place, and homes with one or more handguns were associated with a risk of suicide almost twice as high as that in homes containing only long guns. However, homes with guns of any sort were associated with a significantly higher risk of suicide than homes without guns, regardless of the type of gun or the method of storage.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color="#008000"><A href="http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199208133270705#t=article+Conclusions." target="_blank">http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199208133270705#t=article+Conclusions.</A></FONT></P>Mon, 29 Oct 2012 12:12:57 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257651#M74709Canuck_22012-10-29T12:12:57ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257653#M74710
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="2362"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>A gun, used properly, is also quite safe.&nbsp;&nbsp; I have never seen a gun go off by itself.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Not many guns go off by themselves but quite a few guns 'go off' and result in the death of someone in the US compared to other countries that have fewer guns.</FONT></P>Mon, 29 Oct 2012 12:19:57 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257653#M74710Canuck_22012-10-29T12:19:57ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257655#M74711
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="5119"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P><SPAN>A toaster has a usefull purpose almost everyday and is quite safe unless someone really tries to overcome the safties on it.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN>&nbsp;</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN>You haven't been around to many guns have you? All guns I have are quite safe unless you really try to overcome the safties on them.</SPAN></P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">But the point is many times guns are used to kill someone while few toasters are used that way.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Safety or not.</FONT></P>Mon, 29 Oct 2012 12:21:18 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257655#M74711Canuck_22012-10-29T12:21:18ZRe: My first linkhttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257833#M74752
<P>I keep my guns, locked in a gun cabinet.&nbsp;</P>
<P>There is NO reason, to not have your guns stored in a safe manner.&nbsp; Even if you are destitute, you can get trigger locks, for free, from the Sheriff, for any and all guns you own.</P>
<P>To blame a gun, because of careless storage on the part of an idiotic owner, goes back to blaming the toaster for shocking you, because it had a frayed cord, or whatever.</P>
<P>One thing, I must ask about your source, one that I found when I was looking up links, is the length of time, the gun was owned.&nbsp; I can't find the link right now, but if you take away the guns bought more than a month before the suicde, (if I remember right) a home with locked guns, is as safe as one without.&nbsp; They speculate, that those people were contemplating suicide, and bought the gun for it (but have no concrete proof, because you can't ask the deceased too many questions).</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>Mon, 29 Oct 2012 21:16:07 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257833#M74752Nebrfarmr2012-10-29T21:16:07ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257861#M74757
<P>In the link I posted above, the US, and Japan, have nearly identical rates for 'violent death', (I belive that is a combination of murder, manslaughter, and suicides).&nbsp;</P>
<P>They are no where nearly identical, in gun ownership.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Austria, Finland and France, are notably higher, in this category, than the US.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>I may or may not be right, but I still say that the gun is simply an efficent 'tool' used by thugs, to do thuggish things.&nbsp; Remove the guns (like in Japan) and they simply seek out the next best way to do it.&nbsp; Eliminate the thugs, and whether or not guns are around, doesn't matter (like in Kennesaw, Georgia).</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Oh, here is the link to the chart listing the countries by rate of violent deaths.&nbsp; I stopped when I got down to Canada, the chart actually goes a bit farther.&nbsp;&nbsp; Full article here:&nbsp; <A href="http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html" target="_blank">http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html</A></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><STRONG>International Violent Death Rate Table</STRONG><FONT size="-1"> (Death rates are per 100,000) </FONT></P>
<TABLE border="2" frame="box" rules="all" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2">
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD><STRONG>Country</STRONG></TD>
<TD><STRONG>Year</STRONG></TD>
<TD align="right"><STRONG>Population</STRONG></TD>
<TD align="right"><STRONG>Total Death</STRONG></TD>
<TD align="right"><STRONG>Total Homicide</STRONG></TD>
<TD align="right"><STRONG>Firearm Homicide</STRONG></TD>
<TD align="right"><STRONG>Total Suicide</STRONG></TD>
<TD align="right"><STRONG>Firearm Suicide</STRONG></TD>
<TD><STRONG>% Households With Guns</STRONG></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Estonia</TD>
<TD>1994</TD>
<TD align="right">1,499,257</TD>
<TD align="right">70.76</TD>
<TD align="right">28.21</TD>
<TD align="right">8.07</TD>
<TD align="right">40.95</TD>
<TD align="right">3.13</TD>
<TD align="right">n/a</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Hungary</TD>
<TD>1994</TD>
<TD align="right">10,245,677</TD>
<TD align="right">39.01</TD>
<TD align="right">3.53</TD>
<TD align="right">0.23</TD>
<TD align="right">35.38</TD>
<TD align="right">0.88</TD>
<TD align="right">n/a</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Slovenia</TD>
<TD>1994</TD>
<TD align="right">1,989,477</TD>
<TD align="right">33.37</TD>
<TD align="right">2.01</TD>
<TD align="right">0.35</TD>
<TD align="right">31.16</TD>
<TD align="right">2.51</TD>
<TD align="right">n/a</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Finland<SUP>1</SUP></TD>
<TD>1994</TD>
<TD align="right">5,088,333</TD>
<TD align="right">30.72</TD>
<TD align="right">3.24</TD>
<TD align="right">0.86</TD>
<TD align="right">27.26</TD>
<TD align="right">5.78</TD>
<TD align="right">23.2</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Brazil</TD>
<TD>1993</TD>
<TD align="right">160,737,000</TD>
<TD align="right">25.34</TD>
<TD align="right">19.04</TD>
<TD align="right">10.58</TD>
<TD align="right">3.46</TD>
<TD align="right">0.73</TD>
<TD align="right">n/a</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Denmark</TD>
<TD>1993</TD>
<TD align="right">5,189,378</TD>
<TD align="right">23.46</TD>
<TD align="right">1.21</TD>
<TD align="right">0.23</TD>
<TD align="right">22.13</TD>
<TD align="right">2.25</TD>
<TD align="right">n/a</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Austria</TD>
<TD>1994</TD>
<TD align="right">8,029,717</TD>
<TD align="right">23.36</TD>
<TD align="right">1.17</TD>
<TD align="right">0.42</TD>
<TD align="right">22.12</TD>
<TD align="right">4.06</TD>
<TD align="right">n/a</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Switzerland<SUP>2</SUP></TD>
<TD>1994</TD>
<TD align="right">7,021,000</TD>
<TD align="right">22.80</TD>
<TD align="right">1.32</TD>
<TD align="right">0.58</TD>
<TD align="right">21.28</TD>
<TD align="right">5.61</TD>
<TD align="right">27.2</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>France</TD>
<TD>1994</TD>
<TD align="right">57,915,450</TD>
<TD align="right">22.67</TD>
<TD align="right">1.12</TD>
<TD align="right">0.44</TD>
<TD align="right">20.79</TD>
<TD align="right">5.14</TD>
<TD align="right">22.6</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Mexico</TD>
<TD>1994</TD>
<TD align="right">90,011,259</TD>
<TD align="right">21.74</TD>
<TD align="right">17.58</TD>
<TD align="right">9.88</TD>
<TD align="right">2.89</TD>
<TD align="right">0.91</TD>
<TD align="right">n/a</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Belgium</TD>
<TD>1990</TD>
<TD align="right">9,967,387</TD>
<TD align="right">20.77</TD>
<TD align="right">1.41</TD>
<TD align="right">0.60</TD>
<TD align="right">19.04</TD>
<TD align="right">2.56</TD>
<TD align="right">16.6</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Portugal</TD>
<TD>1994</TD>
<TD align="right">5,138,600</TD>
<TD align="right">18.95</TD>
<TD align="right">2.98</TD>
<TD align="right">1.28</TD>
<TD align="right">14.83</TD>
<TD align="right">1.28</TD>
<TD align="right">n/a</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD><STRONG>United States</STRONG><SUP>3</SUP></TD>
<TD>1993</TD>
<TD align="right">257,783,004</TD>
<TD align="right">18.57</TD>
<TD align="right">5.70</TD>
<TD align="right">3.72</TD>
<TD align="right">12.06</TD>
<TD align="right">7.35</TD>
<TD align="right">39.0</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Japan</TD>
<TD>1994</TD>
<TD align="right">124,069,000</TD>
<TD align="right">17.34</TD>
<TD align="right">0.62</TD>
<TD align="right">0.02</TD>
<TD align="right">16.72</TD>
<TD align="right">0.04</TD>
<TD align="right">n/a</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Sweden</TD>
<TD>1993</TD>
<TD align="right">8,718,571</TD>
<TD align="right">17.12</TD>
<TD align="right">1.30</TD>
<TD align="right">0.18</TD>
<TD align="right">15.75</TD>
<TD align="right">2.09</TD>
<TD align="right">15.1</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Germany<SUP>4</SUP></TD>
<TD>1994</TD>
<TD align="right">81,338,093</TD>
<TD align="right">17.00</TD>
<TD align="right">1.17</TD>
<TD align="right">0.22</TD>
<TD align="right">15.64</TD>
<TD align="right">1.17</TD>
<TD align="right">8.9</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Taiwan<SUP>5</SUP></TD>
<TD>1996</TD>
<TD align="right">21,979,444</TD>
<TD align="right">15.00</TD>
<TD align="right">8.12</TD>
<TD align="right">0.97</TD>
<TD align="right">6.88</TD>
<TD align="right">0.12</TD>
<TD align="right">n/a</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Singapore</TD>
<TD>1994</TD>
<TD align="right">2,930,200</TD>
<TD align="right">15.77</TD>
<TD align="right">1.71</TD>
<TD align="right">0.07</TD>
<TD align="right">14.06</TD>
<TD align="right">0.17</TD>
<TD align="right">n/a</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Canada</TD>
<TD>1992</TD>
<TD align="right">28,120,065</TD>
<TD align="right">15.64</TD>
<TD align="right">2.16</TD>
<TD align="right">0.76</TD>
</TR>
</TBODY>
</TABLE>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 02:26:37 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257861#M74757Nebrfarmr2012-10-30T02:26:37ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257865#M74759
<P>I understand what you are saying, that the gun is more deadly, but instead of arguing about what tools the criminals use, why not concentrate on getting the criminals off the street?</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>For example over half of violent felons, are repeat offenders, and the bulk of crimes, are committed by a small minority of the criminals.&nbsp; What if we agree, to get after that 6% (of criminals) that yahoo! answers say commit 70% of crime?</P>
<P>If we could get crime reduced by 70%, would we even be having the argument, over guns vs. crowbars.&nbsp;</P>
<P>My thoughts (argument or whatever) is that if all the effort that both sides put, over arguing whether guns are good, or bad, would be spent, on catching criminals, it would do more good, overall for the country.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<H1>How many criminals in the US are repeat offenders?</H1>
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<H2>While actual numbers vary, about 56% of violent felons are repeat offenders &amp; 6% of criminals in the US commit 70% of crimes. ChaCha 24/7!</H2>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 02:36:13 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257865#M74759Nebrfarmr2012-10-30T02:36:13ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257927#M74784
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Here is another site with a graphic to show violent deaths by country.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><A href="http://violentdeathproject.com" target="_blank">http://violentdeathproject.com</A></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Dated July 2011</FONT></P>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:09:23 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257927#M74784Canuck_22012-10-30T12:09:23ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257929#M74785
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Not sure the number of 'repeat offenders' is a good category to consider unless you also note that you have a lot more 'criminals' on the street since your country jails a lot more people.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><A href="http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&amp;category=wb_poprate" target="_blank">http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&amp;category=wb_poprate</A></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">USA ranked #1 &nbsp; &nbsp;730 per 100,000</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Cuba ranked #7 &nbsp; &nbsp;510</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">UK &nbsp; &nbsp;ranked #92 &nbsp; 154</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Australia &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #113 &nbsp; 129</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">China &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #123 &nbsp; 121</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Iraq &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;#130 &nbsp; 115</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Canada &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #131 &nbsp; 114</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">France &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #146 &nbsp; 102</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Just seems you will have more ex convicts around when you jail so many. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">So maybe the solution is to not jail so many and then you will not have as many 'repeat offenders'.</FONT></P>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:18:38 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257929#M74785Canuck_22012-10-30T12:18:38ZRe: My first linkhttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257941#M74791
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="2362"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>I keep my guns, locked in a gun cabinet.&nbsp;</P>
<P>There is NO reason, to not have your guns stored in a safe manner.&nbsp; Even if you are destitute, you can get trigger locks, for free, from the Sheriff, for any and all guns you own.</P>
<P>To blame a gun, because of careless storage on the part of an idiotic owner, goes back to blaming the toaster for shocking you, because it had a frayed cord, or whatever.</P>
<P>One thing, I must ask about your source, one that I found when I was looking up links, is the length of time, the gun was owned.&nbsp; I can't find the link right now, but if you take away the guns bought more than a month before the suicde, (if I remember right) a home with locked guns, is as safe as one without.&nbsp; They speculate, that those people were contemplating suicide, and bought the gun for it (but have no concrete proof, because you can't ask the deceased too many questions).</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Maybe we see it differently but I would think if a person was wanting to commit suicide a locked gun would not stop them.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">A home with no guns would make them choose a different method and stats show other methods are not as fatal as a gun even if they are able to complete the task since other methods slow down the process and allow some to change their minds.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Picking up a gun and pulling the trigger does not take long or leave much time to reconsider the impulse.</FONT></P>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:22:55 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257941#M74791Canuck_22012-10-30T12:22:55ZRe: My first linkhttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257963#M74799
<P>Your own link, pointed out that homes with locked guns, had a lower incidence, than those with unlocked guns, so even if small, there must be some correlation to it.&nbsp; If nothing else, it would keep a depressed, drunk, or high on drugs person from grabbing a gun, and pulling the trigger.</P>
<P>Also, are there any other underlying factors?&nbsp; Such as why the households in that area are more 'armed' than others?&nbsp; Do they live in an area with high crime, drugs, etc?</P>
<P>I remember in school, I had a stats teacher, overlay two graphs that followed each other almost perfectly.&nbsp; One was the incidents of rape (per capita) and the other, was ice cream sales.&nbsp; He commented, that stastically, either ice cream sales could be proven to cause rapes, or rapes could be proven to cause more ice cream sales, but if you stepped back, and looked at the big picture, most rapes occured during the warmer months, where a predator was more likely to be able to lie in wait without getting frostbite, and snatch a victim.&nbsp; Also, it may be 'easier' to commit the crime, without all the bulky clothing, and thirdly, under bulky clothing, it is hard to tell if your intended victim is armed in some way.&nbsp;</P>
<P>I guess what I am trying to say, is while I don't argue your numbers, I can't seem to get my head around, the correlation, because, like you, I would think that someone detrmined to kill themselves, would find a way to do it (I know a girl who cut her wrists, for example).&nbsp; However, I guess using a gun, makes a successful outcome more likely.</P>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:54:42 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257963#M74799Nebrfarmr2012-10-30T12:54:42ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257967#M74801
<P>Things like this, make me wish I wan't colorblind, LOL.&nbsp; <BR /><BR />What I can see, is that it seems in the Northern part of the Western Hemisphere, that the pattern is, the farther North you go, the less incidents of violence, and as you go South to the Equator, the violence rate goes up.&nbsp; South America, trends similarly, in that as you work your way to the South Pole, the rate goes down.</P>
<P>Maybe location, has something to do with it, as well?</P>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:57:23 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257967#M74801Nebrfarmr2012-10-30T12:57:23ZRe: My first linkhttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257971#M74802
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="2362"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>Your own link, pointed out that homes with locked guns, had a lower incidence, than those with unlocked guns, so even if small, there must be some correlation to it.&nbsp; If nothing else, it would keep a depressed, drunk, or high on drugs person from grabbing a gun, and pulling the trigger.</P>
<P>Also, are there any other underlying factors?&nbsp; Such as why the households in that area are more 'armed' than others?&nbsp; Do they live in an area with high crime, drugs, etc?</P>
<P>I remember in school, I had a stats teacher, overlay two graphs that followed each other almost perfectly.&nbsp; One was the incidents of rape (per capita) and the other, was ice cream sales.&nbsp; He commented, that stastically, either ice cream sales could be proven to cause rapes, or rapes could be proven to cause more ice cream sales, but if you stepped back, and looked at the big picture, most rapes occured during the warmer months, where a predator was more likely to be able to lie in wait without getting frostbite, and snatch a victim.&nbsp; Also, it may be 'easier' to commit the crime, without all the bulky clothing, and thirdly, under bulky clothing, it is hard to tell if your intended victim is armed in some way.&nbsp;</P>
<P>I guess what I am trying to say, is while I don't argue your numbers, I can't seem to get my head around, the correlation, because, like you, I would think that someone detrmined to kill themselves, would find a way to do it (I know a girl who cut her wrists, for example).&nbsp; However, I guess using a gun, makes a successful outcome more likely.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">I can think of some reasons why homes with guns are more dangerous and first it is probably because many gun owners are already a little unstable since they are so paranoid they think they have to be armed to protect themselves from...... well everything it seems from rapists to burglars to those street gangs in the city and the list goes on.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Yes I know some have a gun to shoot nuisance animals like I do but look at the reasons most often given on this site for having a gun.</FONT></P>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:00:36 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257971#M74802Canuck_22012-10-30T13:00:36ZRe: Need more guns!!https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257981#M74806
<P>A felony is a serious violent or property crime that has the potential for sending a person to a state prison for one year or more and includes murder, rape, robbery, assault, burglary, larceny, vehicle theft, drug trafficking or weapons offense (our definition).</P>
<P>A misdemeanor is a lesser crime that carries a possible sentence of less than one year in a county or city jail (our definition).</P>
<P>Using a beer bottle to hurt someone is a felony. Threatening someone with a beer bottle in your hand is a misdemeanor.</P>
<P>Please note that the majority of crime in America is not reported and the majority of reported crime does not result in an arrest and in many jurisdictions, a significant minority of crimes are not prosecuted. Thus if you reach the stage where the criminal justice system is prosecuting you for a felony, either you have done something very wrong or the system is tired of seeing you back in court.</P>
<P>77 percent of felony defendants have at least one prior arrest and 69 percent have multiple prior arrests. 61 percent have at least one conviction and 49 percent have multiple convictions.</P>
<P>35 percent of those charged with felonies have 10 or more prior arrests and another 17 percent have between 5 to 9 arrests, thus 52 percent of charged felons have been arrested and before the courts many times.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><A href="http://crimeinamerica.net/2010/06/02/repeat-felons-dominate-the-criminal-justice-system%E2%80%94most-convicted-felons-do-not-serve-time-in-prison%E2%80%94part-one/" target="_blank">http://crimeinamerica.net/2010/06/02/repeat-felons-dominate-the-criminal-justice-system%E2%80%94most-convicted-felons-do-not-serve-time-in-prison%E2%80%94part-one/</A></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT color="#0000ff">When 27 percent of violent felons, have 5 or more prior arrests, we have a problem.&nbsp; They were caught, but let loose, to do more harm.&nbsp;&nbsp; I can see giving someone a 2nd chance, or even a 3rd chance, but a 9th and 10th chance??</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color="#0000ff">49% of violent felons had multiple convictions, not arrests, but convictions.&nbsp; <BR />I wonder, what kind of numbers, a more peaceful place, like Canada has.&nbsp; Do they have&nbsp;people roaming the streets, with multiple convictions, or do they do something about it, after the 2nd one?</FONT></P>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:15:26 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257981#M74806Nebrfarmr2012-10-30T13:15:26ZRe: My first linkhttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257983#M74807
<P>If they live in an area, where crime runs rampant, are they truly paranoid?</P>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:16:53 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/257983#M74807Nebrfarmr2012-10-30T13:16:53ZRe: My first linkhttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/258013#M74812
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="2362"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>If they live in an area, where crime runs rampant, are they truly paranoid?</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>I looked but couldn't find much. I would like to know how long term welfare benefits flowing into a community affects violent crime rates.</P>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:46:18 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/258013#M74812r30202012-10-30T13:46:18ZRe: My first linkhttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/258367#M74926
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="2362"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>If they live in an area, where crime runs rampant, are they truly paranoid?</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">The point is another gun is not going to solve a crime problem.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">Guns just make crime problems more deadly.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">&nbsp;</FONT></P>Wed, 31 Oct 2012 03:33:39 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/258367#M74926Canuck_22012-10-31T03:33:39ZRe: My first linkhttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/258373#M74928
<P>And taking one away from a law abiding person, will do zero, to cut crime.</P>Wed, 31 Oct 2012 03:36:40 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/258373#M74928Nebrfarmr2012-10-31T03:36:40ZRe: My first linkhttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/258381#M74931
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR /><LI-USER uid="2362"></LI-USER> wrote:<BR />
<P>And taking one away from a law abiding person, will do zero, to cut crime.</P>
<HR /></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">But if that 'law abiding person' has no need of it then why do they have it?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="comic sans ms,sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000">It does present a hazard in the home and even an attraction to a criminal to steal it.</FONT></P>Wed, 31 Oct 2012 03:45:59 GMThttps://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Need-more-guns/m-p/258381#M74931Canuck_22012-10-31T03:45:59Z