The philosophy of religion typically includes analyses of religious concepts, beliefs, arguments, and practices of religious adherents. One of the central tenets to this branch of contemporary philosophy is the analysis of arguments for and against the existence of God. Thus, though the vast majority of western philosophers are philosophical naturalists, the debate concerning the existence of God is lively, and thus a matter of healthy philosophical disagreement. Perhaps one such pertinent question concerns the relationship between God and proof, “Can God’s existence be scientifically proven?”

One might answer by pointing out that God’s existence cannot be proven in the same way, for instance, a statement like “the Earth orbits the sun” can be proven. When it comes to God, especially a classical theistic notion of God, such a conception is not open to proof or disproof by science. However, one might argue that this isn’t grounds for concluding that God does not exist in the same way that it isn’t grounds for rejecting the central tenets of, say, philosophical-naturalism (the philosophical belief that the natural world is all that exists, which isn’t a scientific belief to the dismay of many naturalists who conflate methodological naturalism with philosophical naturalism) or any other philosophical, metaphysical belief.

But, as theists have tried to show, the issue here is that many are only looking for a certain kind of proof. They are looking for scientific proof, and if they cannot find it they then often conclude that God does not exist. However, if this line of thought is followed to its logical conclusion beyond just the question of God, it leads one into a number of considerations and logical issues. Why? Firstly, because even if the theist were to agree with the skeptic that there is no proof for the existence of God, scientific or otherwise, then we are best left with agnosticism, and not the atheism held by philosophical naturalists. Atheist-naturalists have to go further and forward reasons, proofs, and evidences for their atheistic-naturalism. The theist finds himself within a similar position, as in order to avoid agnosticism he needs to have positive reasons for belief in God.

Secondly, and most importantly, because all human beings, including skeptics, believe in empirically, scientifically unprovable assumptions about the universe of which we believe we are rational to hold to. Some of these being our metaphysical beliefs that the external world exists, that others minds exist other than my own, that certain actions are objectively morally evil as opposed to good, and so on. So, as some have pointed out, it is quite obvious that many skeptics aren’t really being all that consistent. If God is alleged to not exist, or that it is impossible that he exists, because he cannot be scientifically proven, then so must the skeptic’s philosophical naturalism, or any other philosophical beliefs, he holds be undermined. Thus, if the skeptic wants to be consistent, and rational, he has to concede that science cannot be the only way to determine the truth of beliefs.

As any competent and mindful professional scientist and philosopher of science will inform us, science is limited in its scope. The scientific method is phenomenal in acquiring and affirming knowledge about the universe but it is powerless to answer the ultimate philosophical questions of life: Why do we exist? Why does anything exist? What is the meaning of life? What is the value of life? Does God exist? These are questions that cannot be answered by science which suggests that we need to look beyond science to answer them.

Now, the theist might argue that we are rational to believe in God in the same way we are rational to believe in, say, the existence of the external world of physical objects. We can’t scientifically prove that this is the case, but we’re rational to hold to the belief. Why? Because there seems to be sufficient, though not indisputable, reasons to hold to the belief. The theist argues that belief in God is rational in the same way, though the skeptic would no disagree with him on that point. For example, there are a number of arguments, some of which theists view as convincing, that have been proposed, and that if successful and followed to their logical conclusions render belief in God rational and warranted. On this point, when it comes to the arguments for God’s existence, some of them include premises that are grounded on empirical evidence from the sciences. The Kalam cosmological argument, for example, weighs significantly on the scientific evidences for a beginning to the physical universe and space-time. The teleological argument marshals evidence from the apparent fine-tuning of the constants within the universe in favour of a designer. Other arguments, like the moral and ontological arguments, instead weigh on philosophical reasoning. For a brief summary of the relationship between science and theological arguments view my other essay.

Now, this brings one to the contention that “there’s no evidence or proof for God’s existence.” As has been argued before, this is intellectually dishonest on the skeptic’s part. To be charitable we need to admit that many sophisticated skeptics don’t argue such a line. That “there’s no evidence or proof for God’s existence” is mostly one taken by fundamentalist skeptics online who have just heard or read the phrase somewhere from others on forums and certain websites. Rather, the intellectually charitable skeptic is quite aware that there are serious considerations that need to be had when it comes to belief in God and the alleged arguments forwarded in favour of God’s existence.

Now, this isn’t to say that the arguments are sound but rather that dismissing them through the rhetoric that “there’s no evidence or proof for God” isn’t going to hold much intellectual fortitude. Nor will it seem to be a very intellectual position or one worth talking about. Similarly, a skeptic might accuse a theist of being intellectually dishonest if he said that there is no evidence in favour of naturalism, or that skeptics haven’t proposed evidences suggestive of such the conclusion that God might not exist or that his existence is improbable (the problem of evil and suffering and the advancements of science, for example). Now, one wouldn’t be a theist if he thought that their arguments were successful, but theists have to admit that there exist arguments that require serious engagement because if they are successful then belief in God must be rendered unwarranted.

As already stated, the philosophy of religion is a lively field. There are of course further trends emerging, including the relationship between feminism and theology, an interest in medieval philosophy of religion, and in numerous areas in which science and faith speak to each other. We will be examining these in some more detail at later stages.

So, in rounding off this essay, “Can God’s existence be scientifically proven?” Perhaps a better question to ask would be whether or not it is “rational to believe in God?” That certainly broadens the debate.

Let me start with the nuke, this god that some are not sure about intervenes to save life on a daily basis around the world. Often saving those that have there doubts, and tell’s them who it is. This includes the atheist. Some still don’t get it, even after it has intervened.

This moves nicely onto the atheist. Who you will often find has come from a religious background or culture (Stalin was according to Wiki, came from a catholic background and started training that could have lead to him becoming a priest before declaring himself an atheist). Religion as my book is entitled Separates Man From God. So religion will eventually generate people who do not believe god exists.

We move onto the scientist. A new discovery, What exactly is the break through. In most cases, the breakthrough is a new or renewed interest in the most advanced entity man is likely to come across. Science invariably is a study of god.

Then just as we are dependent on the sun for the life supporting earth: subconsciously we are dependent on God to assist with keeping us alive, this is largely a subconscious dependence, not something most can sense.

So where you won’t find god is in religion. The scientist are often the men and women who are actually observing god.

I’m glad you think its nonsense, I do stand corrected The Russian Orthodox church and Catholic church are not the same thing, though they are different forms of Christianity. so your nonsense is my semantism. What are men studying in science. The new discoveries science uncovers are nature, nature has no origin it just appears, it has no origin, you have no origin, life has no origin. You will find, the well known story book attempts to study god, but the scientist is studying god. Einstein did not get to the bottom of science, because it was beyond him. Which is exactly what god is, that which is beyond humanity. Humans will never be in the position to dismiss god, be it a scientist or a man that thinks he knows everything, and what he doesn’t understand must be nonsense.

Religion Separates Man From God, was initially from the thought Prayer rests you from God. I was very ill, and with nothing to lose (except my life) I prayed 100 times in a day, and realized I was resting from god. 3 years on, few grasp what I’m talking about.

Religion, I’m really talking about mainstream religion, but most / a lot of mainstream religion will have merged with pre religion or paganism. Prayer and praise of god, are activities that predate, the main religions, and their are other practices. But the modern human is arguably religious, and arguably godless.

What I think god is, is as I have agreed with James is based on a model, and that model is based on the world and its history. So if god is unknown to humans, then all I have left is use a model of god that can offer a reasonable explanation of humanity and human behavior. Some could argue then if god is unknown to humans then why not just say god does not exist. But I know god intervenes to save life, telling people who it is, so denying god will get me no where.

Is it reasonable to say god is the most advanced entity we are likely to come across, to me yes.

Is it reasonable to say god is something that is very difficult or impossible to kill, to me yes.

So is the arms race likely to be something to do with being godlike or being godless. Why do light people lead the arms race. I’ve just written a response that argues morality is more closely associated with humanity, if as I suspect our consciousness puts us in conflict or at war with god, with few on humanities side, most including the religious are on gods side.

By unknown, I mean we do not understand what god is. We can give this entity characteristics, it can save our life and tell us who it is, but I’m not convinced humans do understand what god is.

You’re keen to highlight the healing properties of prayer, and I’m sure there are other benefits too. I suggest in my book, healing associated with prayer ‘may’ work on the principle, that weakening the body and mind by pushing god away with prayer may encourage a reaction by the body, that encourages healing, that is pushing god away stresses mind and body, causing a positive reaction.

Sit with me on a plane listening to the terrorist chanting ‘god is great’ before flying into the twin towers. Or the terrorist shouting ‘this is for allah’ before stabbing people to death on a London street. Or watch a priest being blown to bits on the beaches of D Day France as he tries to erect a makeshift altar. The bible will regularly tell you of conflict and how religion is never far away.. All godless acts with religion never far away, yet most have not a clue what I’m talking about. Most have no idea, we are at war with god, so incredulity does not surprise me, the religious are on god’s side, a handful (who are not religious) on humanities side.

How far away is the nearest religious building to you? Here in Birmingham UK, the nearest to me is about 100 yards. it isn’t the only religious building on the planet. Sometimes I feel like I’m trying to feed a baby, that religion pushes god away, its not going to happen.

I have a model of god, that explains humanity, and human behavior, particularly why we are violent, and kill. The arms race fits that model. If the model I suggest makes no sense to you, keep praying, while we both watch the world and its violence. You are not meant to see what I’m talking about. You are not supposed to be able to apply the idea to see if religion purpose is to push god away. The world continues to pray, and we continue to witness violence.

I take your point about begging, if we both talk at the same time neither will hear what the other says, this is how I see prayer and praise of god, its action is to push god away.

So because I would consider what god is, is unknown to us, I use a model of what god is, that to me at least can reasonably explain our history, humanity, human behavior.

Going back to your point a 100 prayers is more like begging. Here we have potential for some common ground, And yes a relationship is more desirable. I would go further, we should attract god, and rest from god. I would say religion to me is in the undesirable mode, it is excessive, it pushes away god.

What I do to ‘rest’ from god is pain recognition exercise in the form of pain recognition yoga. Where higher consciousness obtained with ‘sustainable levels’ of pain, (in my opinion) rests us (me) from god. So you may not agree but I can see my own thinking is not a million miles from yours. There maybe other ways, to rest from god, but I’m sure religions aren’t one of them.

Something on another level leads me to suspect our consciousness, puts us in conflict with god or at war with god. The Adam and Eve tree of life story comes to mind. The religious are on gods side, the handful of non religious are on humanities side. To reach the point where god is no longer at war with us, 1. no religion, 2. humans stop killing humans.

Michael Barnett
You’ve put a lot of thought based on conclusions but painfully little on the conclusions themselves.

“mind by pushing god away with prayer may encourage a reaction by the body”
“I take your point about begging, if we both talk at the same time neither will hear what the other says, this is how I see prayer and praise of god, its action is to push god away.”
Unfortunately, you did not.
When you hold conversation with people are doing so with the intention of pushing them away? Conversations are about getting closer to people, not pushing them away. If you take the time to look at others you may find that many people who are closest to God, have this dialogue with him. It sounds like you chose a one-sided relationship one way and when you realized that did not work chose the one-sided relationship in the other without it ever occurring to you that any good relationship goes both ways, not one or the other. You don’t only talk in a good relationship or only listen, you listen and talk.

“The world continues to pray, and we continue to witness violence.”
That violence has been increasing with less prayer not decreasing, as I highlighted with the statics. Wherever Christianity spreads, democracy has been increasing and human rights abuses decrease. Christians are the ones that finally started ending slavery, first in the Roman and later against the colonialists.

“I would say religion to me is in the undesirable mode, it is excessive, it pushes away god.”
Again, you are not giving reason as to why it pushes God away, all the conclusions you are giving don’t appear to have any basis for any of it beyond wishful thinking.

“You are not meant to see what I’m talking about. You are not supposed to be able to apply the idea to see if religion purpose is to push god away.”
Does it not sound unreasonable that God would want people to hear and know his words? If religion is so bad why is it that it does so much more good than bad? If God is pushed away by religion why does he allow the religious to do so much more for the wellbeing of humanity than their nonreligious counterparts?
You understand that using poetic wording to make words sound pleasant does not mean that they have any more substance than before, you seem to be trying to use wording to make up for the lack of substance and real thought.

I have said a substantial amount, it takes time to absorb. My first reaction, conflict and killing suggest to me, we are at war with god, or god is at war with humanity. Why should I expect good things to come from religious humans. Secondly, this is part of a model. so few will feel comfortable applying it to see if anything makes sense. Thirdly. you can argue the source of violence is with non religious. This is often the atheist, who comes from religion ( pushing away god will often leave you with some people who think god does not exist), You fail to accept, few parts of the world do not have some form of religion in the background.

I agree violence is in recent years affects not all of us, but violence still comes from the majority, who have a religious background. You say 1% of religious leaders and 58% of non religious leaders are are violent to their people. You will find religion behind the 58% so called non religious leaders.

If we are at war with god, if, where do we find our morality, I suggest within humanity, and from ways that increase our humanity, I mentioned exercise maybe other ways. Rest from god, using exercise, pain recognition exercise, NOT with religion that pushes god away.

You mention why do we have so much literature, or I think you did, concerning religion if it is so bad for us, again, we are at war with god. You looking for morality in the wrong place.

You mention charities religious doctors and their good work, the end of slavery from Christians. This is indeed good from religion. But you fail to see that they are putting things right that originated from religion, they feel guilt, they see themselves, they see (often after the fact or the damage has been done by religion) their humanity, they see what their religion has done and their humanity and shame finds them.

I’m rushing this response, we are at war with god. But I cannot stop you from looking for humanity, morality in religion, because you are on god’s side.

1. Stop, or at least minimize religion, and those that practice religion. 2. Stop killing, this ‘should’ stop the war with god.

Remember this is a model, it it makes no sense to you, nothing is lost, the religious are not wasted.

“I have said a substantial amount, it takes time to absorb.”
Does it occur to you that you are failing to absorb yourself?

“Why should I expect good things to come from religious humans.”
How about because of the things I highlighted about the good the religious have done?

“Secondly, this is part of a model.”
Does it occur to you that your model might match to a flawed understanding of the world around you?

“you can argue the source of violence is with non religious.”
I did not. I highlighted that blaming violence on religion does not make sense, since the no-religious have greater issue with it.

“You fail to accept, few parts of the world do not have some form of religion in the background.”
At no point did I fail to accept that, you are reading many false words from what I am saying.

“You will find religion behind the 58% so called non religious leaders.”
This a completely blind statement without any facts given to back it up.

“Rest from god, using exercise, pain recognition exercise, NOT with religion that pushes god away.”
Again you are failing to show that religion pushes God away, I’ve highlighted that none of your reasoning shows this.

“But you fail to see that they are putting things right that originated from religion, they feel guilt, they see themselves, they see (often after the fact or the damage has been done by religion) their humanity, they see what their religion has done and their humanity and shame finds them.”
You have a very bad need to study up on their history. Quite a large majority were not ashamed by the actions of their religion into doing it. They understood it to be wrong in large part from the teachings of their religion. Christian’s were not ashamed of the actions of the Roman religion into ending slavery, they did because they knew to love their neighbor as themselves. They do not continue to do charity in other nations because they are ashamed of their religion, they did so because they knew it was right.
You are making up stuff that is very obviously in blatant contradiction of reality.

“You mention why do we have so much literature”
No I did not, you are not taking the time to think through what I am saying.

“I’m rushing this response, we are at war with god. But I cannot stop you from looking for humanity, morality in religion, because you are on god’s side. “
Instead of rushing your response maybe you should try to put though into it.
You are saying religion is on God’s side but pushes God away and is against humanity and God saves. I think you should realize by now that you have fundamental contradictions in your views. God saves us but being religions and as you say therefore on his side means being against humanity. This is very illogical, if God wants to save people, and therefore humanity, then being on his side would not mean being against humanity, as it actually lines up with what God wants. You can’t be on someone side by pushing them away, if religion is on God’s side then it cannot be pushing God away as that is a fundamental contradiction.
This also comes back to the problems with your understanding of prayer. If all you do is pretend to listen to someone and never communicate with that someone, you do not have a healthy relationship with that someone. It is the equivalent of watching a TV screen and thinking you have a relationship with someone on the screen. This is describing the relationship you’ve chosen with God, because you found that talking to him non-stop did not work. Any good relationship is both ways, hearing God’s word and speaking with him through prayer.

“1. Stop, or at least minimize religion, and those that practice religion.”
Again you’ve completely failed to demonstrate that this is the case and there is quite a bit of strong reason against it being so.

“Remember this is a model, it it makes no sense to you, nothing is lost, the religious are not wasted.”
I understand your model. But it is very obvious that your model only works because you warp your view of reality to fit it, in ways that absurdly contradict reality. You lack both understanding of God and reality and you refuse to take the time to understand before reaching the conclusions that appease you and your model.

My warped reality, can explain your world and your religion. I start with Religion pushes god away, and the rest follows, quite easily. So while you pin medals on your religious brothers and sisters. I run with the Rohingya, until I fall with them.

“I start with Religion pushes god away”
This is the problem in a nutshell, you started with the conclusion. All of your reasoning is based on conclusion you cannot justify even remotely. Religion does not separate man from God, it brings them closer as does prayer, when you are willing to listen and not just speak.
In all irony you’ve created your own religion that you can’t even remotely justify.

It is mostly religious people who fight for the Rohingya, you are choosing to fight some of the very people trying to help. As a result you are not fighting for or alongside them but against them.

“Because your religion leaves you godless..”
How is this an answer to my question? Again your reasoning is starting with a conclusion that does not add up. The religion you are trying to create to take its place is self contradicting and you have not demonstrated that it is actually uniting you or others closer to God. From what I am seeing it looks like you could not be farther from both both God and people.

“Did you pray for the people shot dead in Las Vegas?”
Yes. I gather from your religion that you probably have not?

I start with a theory, then apply it, if it makes sense I go with it until it does not make sense. But to not pray or praise god, only makes sense to a handful of people. I have written 75,000 words, it is not an easy subject to develop.

The religious system we have may indeed have its uses, but at a price. I can only encourage you to do Pain recognition exercise or sport, from here you will experience your highest consciousness. From your highest consciousness, without pushing away god, you may see that your prayer and praise makes you godless. You may notice how religion is soon accompanied by violence in our recent history and that in the bible.

My aim is to stop men killing men, or excessively killing other life forms, though most if not all food involves another life form.

I go back to Adam and Eve, ‘eating from the tree of knowledge you will surely be killed.’ We are at war with god, via our consciousness. Those who are religious are on god’s side. But it is proving near impossible to get people like you to see this. When man stops killing man, the war with god will end.

Thanks to your prayers, the killing in Las Vegas, Canada, France, many other places, will continue. Surely you deserve a medal for your prayers.

“I start with a theory, then apply it, if it makes sense I go with it until it does not make sense.”
If you actually took the time to think about it your ‘theory’ stopped making sense quite a while ago and started even becoming self contradicting.

“You may notice how religion is soon accompanied by violence in our recent history and that in the bible.”
If you took the time to look you may notice that not all religions are the same and that very rarely can religion actually be blamed for wars. Trying to start a new religious cult only means that you are continuing religion, you are efforts are not actually breaking you away.

“Thanks to your prayers, the killing in Las Vegas, Canada, France, many other places, will continue.”
It is rather ironic that you are trying to blame it on prayer when you cannot give real reason or logic for why it does. War continues in places where people don’t pray as well. Why do think God wants to attack people for not praying?
Other than trying to make a scapegoat out of prayer and all religions except the religious cult you are trying to start, are you actually doing anything to help people such as the Rohingya, or do you only imagine yourself running and falling with them?

Dear Shonny, I have a lovely medal to give you in recognition of your selfless prayers. And you are quite right, I haven’t got to the bottom of religion. If we (dark people) are godlike how did my ancestors get enslaved. It seems to make no sense, surely the godlike should be powerful and free, not slaves. But then I say, but god is at war with humanity, so the godless, will enslave the godlike.

The godless will lead the arms race, because the godless are the easiest to kill. But whose side are the godless on, you would think, not on god side, but the result of godlessness is to often kill people. So their actions determine whose side they are on.

Can I get the godless to realise via religion they are on gods side, I no longer have a book published to say this deep within its pages. So while you are highlighting contradictions – I already use and apply what I believe to see if I can get humans to stop killing humans. While you are on your pagan knees, I’m trying to stop the killing.

You say oh but religion isn’t all over the planet. Work through the continents, you will find in most countries , not most, all countries you will find religion.

Imagine the day when man isn’t killing man, try to picture that day in your mind. There are no guns, war planes, death aircraft carriers. Imagine that day. Imagine the day when you can’t find a gun anywhere in the united states, or in north and south america. Imagine the day when there hasn’t been a gun in europe or asia in 50 years.

Shon can you imagine this day when there are no weapons. and no one has been killed in decades. How did we get here. Did we get here because Shon kneels and prays or did we get here when we learned to not pray and praise god, turning to sport to attract and rest from god.

You have been praying for 3000 years Shon, don’t you think its time to give peace a chance.

“I no longer have a book published to say this deep within its pages.”
Why is your book no longer published?

“If we (dark people) are godlike how did my ancestors get enslaved.”
Do you believe that by being dark skinned people are godlike?

“You say oh but religion isn’t all over the planet. Work through the continents, you will find in most countries , not most, all countries you will find religion.”
If a small minority of people are religious in a nation and that nation has atheist leadership. That usually means that religion has little nothing to nothing do with decisions made by the state that lead to detrimental issues in the nation and that nation to go to war with others.

“Can I get the godless to realise via religion they are on gods side”
If they are on God’s side, then how are they waging war against God? Wouldn’t the fact that you are creating a new religion mean that you are just continuing this cycle?

“While you are on your pagan knees, I’m trying to stop the killing.”
Does it occur to you that I might do more than just pray to stop the killing?

“Imagine the day when man isn’t killing man, try to picture that day in your mind.”
I have no trouble picturing that. It sounds like you are very far from coming up with a solution for that though.

“I can only encourage you to do Pain recognition exercise or sport, from here you will experience your highest consciousness.”
How do you know that it is gives you your highest conscious and do you know that it gives you accurate information?

“Did we get here because Shon kneels and prays or did we get here when we learned to not pray and praise god, turning to sport to attract and rest from god.
You have been praying for 3000 years Shon, don’t you think its time to give peace a chance.”
We’ve done plenty of port during that time as well. If you are arguing that sense we pray and still have war by that logic would it not make equal sense to give up sport sense we’ve doing it as well during that time?
Why would God wage war against humanity for praying to him and why would he be less inclined by not praying to him?

Shonny, I believe your prayers push god away, some like yourself will eventually come to think god does not exist, creating the atheist. I believe your prayers lead some to atheism. I thank people like you for the Kim Jong-un’s, the Stalins, and many others. Thanks Shonny for giving man atheism, maybe I should get you another shiney medal.

‘If’ Shonny, god is impossible to kill, something impossible to kill will not need arms, light people lead the arms race, (something I tweeted recently to Donald Trump). The arms race will tell you who you are..

No Shonny, prayer stops me thinking, thinking is an activity I believe is something that shows we have attracted god. To kill, you tend not to be thinking. Exercise, makes me think, reading and music. Pain recognition yoga, stops me thinking, but not to the extent of praying. i.e. Praying pushes away god, pain recognition exercise rests you from god.

I don’t think my e book is very good, it hasn’t sold. It may cost me more money in taxes than I can afford.

A radio presenter who is aware of my book, had an interview last night with some Muslims saying they frequently experience Islam a phobia and racism, and a large part of their community is becoming deprived, and are in poverty. But the radio presenter an irish guy, though he’s aware of my book, nothing in their conversation suggests my book has changed any thinking.

I’m not convinced you are going to stop praying, My conscience might make me put the book online in the future, its not the first time I’ve taken it off line.

Back to the godlike, those with dark skin that have been enslaved, are the people you are most likely to find are godlike, though religion will make them godless. The process going on in Libya. Migrants arrive there, and many end up enslaved. The people doing the enslavement, will be godless, those that are enslaved, will have no need for weapons, agression, because they are the hardest to kill, they are godlike. So those with a background of slavery will find they are the godlike. Slavery has existed in the past amongst light people, and here again is a source of godlikeness. Music we love often has its roots in slavery, there is something exceptional about the voices (and music) of the godlike whether light or dark. With exceptional voices often come the problems going back to slavery.

I could go on, but I’m aware we are at war with god, and people like you who pray, are on god’s side. I’m trying to be on humanities side. Alone, I cannot stop this war against god. It will only stop when man stops killing man. But the more I chat to you, the more I know man isn’t going to stop killing man anytime soon. The more I chat to you the more I realize you have no intention of stopping prayer or praise of god.

Your medal looks great on you. Have you said your prayers today? I’ll have to get you another one.

‘Does it occur to you that I might just do more than just pray’ to stop the killing? As I said to James, guilt at being godless, gullt about violence and suffering, your conscience, your humanity, may be the source of your good deeds – because occasionally you will realise you are human. Guilt that your prayer cannot stop the violence, even if you pray till you are blue in the face, indeed from the culture of prayer praise and religion, when you add poverty, and abuse, mental illness that comes from religion – you are contributing to the violence. Guilt that your prayers put you on god’s side of a war with god, not on humanities side. Guilt that your prayers move us no closer to ending the war with god, will prompt you good deeds. Guilt.

Think about consciousness, think about your nervous system, think about what it is to be awake, sense light, warmth, your senses detect things. When you are asleep, you are sub conscious, at a lower consciousness, you will not see me typing, hear me laugh at you, hear me weep. only when you’re awake, at a higher consciousness. When your senses detect pain, I suspect your at an even higher consciousness. Pain will tell you your body is in danger, Your body reacts to pain, usually putting you at a higher alertness to get out of the situation threatening your body. Most people don’t fall asleep when you hit them, unless u knock them unconscious, they will be even more alert, they will be at a higher consciousness.

Are you actually taking the time to read my questions before responding? You are completely missing almost every point I’ve been making.

“I believe your prayers push god away, some like yourself will eventually come to think god does not exist, creating the atheist.”
If this were the case then it does not make sense that the people practicing prayers are the ones leading people away from atheism. There is a reason Christianity is able to grow in atheist countries such as China.
If you go to watch a speaker and all you do is listen have you developed a relationship with said speaker? Suppose instead you have regular conversations with someone? Have you developed a relationship with that person?
Which person would have an easier time walking away from the other? The person who only listens to a speaker or the one that has the conversation?

“light people lead the arms race”
There are quite a number of nations presently leading arms races in their regions uninfluenced by light skinned people. If you go further into the past there are a number of time periods that it was exclusively the dark skinned people leading arms races.

“Back to the godlike, those with dark skin that have been enslaved, are the people you are most likely to find are godlike, though religion will make them godless.”
There have been many periods in which it was dark skinned people practicing race based slavery, not unlikely before the light skinned, it is not just a light skinned thing. Light skinned even today are enslaved just not in the same numbers as the dark skinned.
You are promoting racial supremacy something that is very well documented as causing a great deal of the problems both in the past and present. Just as those before you, enslaving others to build monuments in Egypt and work plantations, your basis is poor. In all irony while making the prayer a scapegoat you are promoting something well known to cause the strife you claim to oppose.

“I could go on, but I’m aware we are at war with god, and people like you who pray, are on god’s side.”
Asking the same question again. If someone is pushing someone away how can they be on their side? You argue that prayer pushes God away but then say that the people pushing God away through prayer are on his side.
Why can’t someone be on God and humanities side?

“Guilt at being godless, gullt about violence and suffering, your conscience, your humanity, may be the source of your good deeds.”
What makes you so sure it is not your guilt about at being godless that is your source of good deeds?

“when you add poverty, and abuse, mental illness that comes from religion”
Again, you are trying to create a new religion to take the place of the others, are you not just continuing the cycle that you claim to be trying to stop by creating a new religion?
What makes you think religion causes mental illness?

“When you are asleep, you are sub conscious, at a lower consciousness, you will not see me typing, hear me laugh at you, hear me weep. only when you’re awake, at a higher consciousness. When your senses detect pain, I suspect your at an even higher consciousness. Pain will tell you your body is in danger, Your body reacts to pain, usually putting you at a higher alertness to get out of the situation threatening your body.”
The brain has been studied a fair amount it might have occurred to you to check to see if your belief is accurate. Your mind is less aware of what is happening around it and able to think less clearly. Prolonged pain decreases gray matter in the brain and cause low level brain damage.
If you are ever in a pain you less aware of your surroundings and what is happening to you, lesser pains are less likely to be noticed when in immense pain. You cannot do things like math problems anywhere near as well when in pain.https://www.medpagetoday.com/resource-center/pain-management/brain/a/38479

Why don’t you try going without putting yourself in pain for a bit when looking at what I wrote and then try to respond.

Shonny, some of your points, I’ve already covered, and some of your responses are simply to counter by any means any of the concepts I put forward. So I’ll park Atheism as you don’t make any sense, you are like Moses, trying to guide people, leaving them to do their own thing only to come back to see they have strayed. So too, the Christian, will find himself continually going back to find the atheist, he created, only to find when he’s gone, they go back to being atheist.

Your godlessness is clearly being demonstrated, as you are unable to grasp anything, not unlike a brick wall or chimpanzee, or gorilla: as hard as I try, the godless have no idea what I’m talking about.

You worry about supremacy I see light and dark as both necessary, and both key to ending a war with god. People are being killed in this war, while you chat your godless nonsense, people are being killed. While you chat nonsense we will get no nearer ending the killing, ending the war with god. But you haven’t surprised me. People are being killed, ‘ oh I’m on both gods side, and humanities side’ people are being killed, most of humanity, dark and light are on god’s side.

The higher consciousness, is with lighter skin, the access to higher intelligence is with darker skin, neither is win win, we are interdependent. But it is our consciousness that I suspect will one day stand up to god and end the killing. I tweeted Donald Trump three times, about the arms race, how godlessness and godlikeness creates tension, and how pain recognition exercise is where you will find optimal levels of morality, not in religion.

The fourth tweet, would have been, my role as a dark person is to protect lighter people as lighter people are the key to ending killing, and the war with god. Indeed, something within me suspects light skin comes from religion, or is a consequence of religion. But my brick wall will have no idea what I’m talking about.

There was an expert on the radio not long back discussing the use of drugs to enhance study, but the expert said exercise can enhance study, as well if not better than any smart drug. I’m about to start a 30th consecutive day of pain recognition yoga. I’m not looking for debilitating pain, but sustainable pain. I started doing Pain recognition yoga, a year ago, it is very important I don’t injure myself, indeed, I suspect the pain has health benefits, in raising consciousness. Where did I suggest you spend all day in debilitating pain. Only a godless brick wall would twist what I’ve said.

The arms race, ‘there are quite a number of countries presently leading the arms race.’ Nonsense, America is leading the arms race, Russia, Europe, but out on its own by some distance is America.

But you demonstrate who you are, godless, so this hasn’t been a pointless exercise, it has been a disappointing exercise, but not a pointless exercise.

In sport, skin colour is exploited, because it has characteristics, sprinters, and most top runners are dark, top boxers predominately dark, top tennis players light, swimmers light, weight lifters light. So we already exploit colour. But you are afraid, or unable to make sense of my thinking. I’m trying to stop the killing, all you see is a supremacist.

I even think once we know who we are, some of us will need to be even lighter and make use of religion, as long as they are aware, they make themselves more godless, so will have to operate within a majority of godlikeness, if we are to survive and thrive.

“People are being killed, ‘ oh I’m on both gods side”
This is precisely the line of reasoning you’ve been giving where you say you are the only one in the right. This is generally referred to as the pot calling the kettle black.

“So too, the Christian, will find himself continually going back to find the atheist, he created, only to find when he’s gone, they go back to being atheist.”
You are really ignorant of the world around you. When communists took over countries such as China they expelled on missionaries. In the absence of those missionaries Christianity continued to flourish in China and grow. Still practicing prayer and improving the lives of many of those around them.

“Your godlessness is clearly being demonstrated, as you are unable to grasp anything”
I can grasp what you say, it is just obvious that you have never put objective thought into it. It is one of the reasons you likely became a racial supremacist who actually is spreading one of histories greatest evils while you fail to maintain a coherent line of reasoning enough to actually grasp or even really read what I am saying.

“Your godlessness is clearly being demonstrated, as you are unable to grasp anything, not unlike a brick wall or chimpanzee, or gorilla: as hard as I try, the godless have no idea what I’m talking about.”
The people you are calling godless, recognize that you do not have a coherent line of thought. If you want people to believe you, you should have put actual thought into your beliefs before promoting things such as racism while trying to make prayer the scapegoat without any basis beyond wishful thinking. The religion you’ve created is one of hate and quite likely the godlessness you try to pin on others.

“The higher consciousness, is with lighter skin, the access to higher intelligence is with darker skin”
Does it ever occur to you to look at actual studies before making your conclusions? Not study, period, shows this to be the case. In fact all studies argue quite strongly against it.

“Indeed, something within me suspects light skin comes from religion, or is a consequence of religion.”
Religion existed among dark skinned people well before light skinned people could come into the picture for them

“but the expert said exercise can enhance study”
Yes exercise improves body health that allows your body to work better by clearing passageways. No it is not the pain, the pain is only a side effect.

“I suspect the pain has health benefits, in raising consciousness. Where did I suggest you spend all day in debilitating pain. Only a godless brick wall would twist what I’ve said.”
Seeing that you have a twisted and racist view of the world I suppose it would have been fitting if I had twisted your words but I have not, again you fail to demonstrate a coherent line of thought. I did not say that you spend all day in debilitating pain, you are not demonstrating good reading comprehension.

“The arms race, ‘there are quite a number of countries presently leading the arms race.’ Nonsense, America is leading the arms race, Russia, Europe”
An arms race happens when a country coutinues to increase its arsenal. America is not actual increasing but rather decreasing theirs. Countries that you’ve excluded such as China, North Korea, and Iran are increasing theirs. In the past is mostly dark skinned people leading arms races such as well known case with ancient Ethiopia, Egypt and the Persian empire.

“In sport, skin colour is exploited, because it has characteristics, sprinters, and most top runners are dark, top boxers predominately dark, top tennis players light, swimmers light, weight lifters light.”
Ability to exercise and mental capability are not the same thing, this is a false equivalence.

“I’m trying to stop the killing, all you see is a supremacist.”
You are trying to stop the killing by making a false scapegoat out of prayer and actually promoting racism, something very well documented to have resulted in much of the world’s bloodshed. The people who practiced prayer though are quite well documented to have prevented much of it. Of course you have to find some way twist that last fact though by trying to make it about guild from prayer without proof and clearly out of desperation to justify your truly evil views. God is not with you that is why your views fail to gain hold; you’ve chosen to wage war against those that follow him and in the process against God as well.

No prayer did not enslave your ancestors. It was actually the people that prayed that played the biggest role in ending slavery. The racial supremacy you are promoting actually was responsible for a good portion of racial slavery both when practiced by Egyptians and later by Europeans.
You are promoting the very ideology that was responsible for it while making a false scapegoat out of prayer not just without evidence but going absurdly against evidence.

The first nations to end slavery were Christian nations, these nations would go on to actually force other nations to end slavery as well including many African nations. That was the first time a group truly tried to end it on this scale. Christianity continues to fight to end slavery, while you promote the ideology that helped create slavery.

No Shonny, guilt and shame ended slavery, guilt that came from the realization that without religion there wouldn’t have been slavery. The first slaves and current enslavement are the result of you and your ancestors godless prayers.

Your beloved religious charities are driven by the same guilt. Every decent thing you do is the result shame of your godless religion. But maybe I’m being too hard on you, you are simply on god’s side of this war with god. I suppose you are trapped in a kind of slavery yourself, with no way out.

“No Shonny, guilt and shame ended slavery, guilt that came from the realization that without religion there wouldn’t have been slavery.”
This is referred to as an argument made from ignorance, you have absolutely no basis to believe a religion, such as Christianity, was the reason it happened. However, your religion actually advocates racial supremacy; one of the building blocks of slavery. Perhaps it is your guilt for advocating such an evil that makes you want to find your excuse to project it onto others?

“The first slaves and current enslavement are the result of you and your ancestors godless prayers.”
Again, a made up claim you can’t even hope to back up as the only basis your wishful thinking to back up your bigoted views.

“Your beloved religious charities are driven by the same guilt.”
Once again more wishful thinking on your part, you have not basis beyond your wishful thinking to justify your hate to believe this. Can you actually even give a single reason for guilt to be the driving force?

“I suppose you are trapped in a kind of slavery yourself, with no way out.”
I am no slave, but it is clear that you are one to hatred and bigotry. You’ve pushed God out of your life and are now trying to do the same for others under the pretext of pretending to do otherwise.

The religions cult you are trying to build around yourself is built out of nothing but wishful thinking, a desire to think yourself superior to those around you. You’ve replaced prayer with something that has not made you more intelligent but the complete opposite; you have become stupid in you arrogance and lost complete sight of basic reason.

You claim that you want to end the wars yet all you do is attack those trying to actually do so, you claim that you will fight for and die for people such as the Rohingya. Yet it is obvious you’ve never done anything for them but try to make a scapegoat out of the very people who actually have. Would you like one of those medals you like to hand out so much for all you like to imagine yourself doing for the Rohingya?

“No Shonny, guilt and shame ended slavery, guilt that came from the realization that without religion there wouldn’t have been slavery.”
This is referred to as an argument made from ignorance, you have absolutely no basis to believe a religion, such as Christianity, was the reason it happened. However, your religion actually advocates racial supremacy; one of the building blocks of slavery. Perhaps it is your guilt for advocating such an evil that makes you want to find your excuse to project it onto others?

“The first slaves and current enslavement are the result of you and your ancestors godless prayers.”
Again, a made up claim you can’t even hope to back up as the only basis your wishful thinking to back up your bigoted views.

“Your beloved religious charities are driven by the same guilt.”
Once again more wishful thinking on your part, you have not basis beyond your wishful thinking to justify your hate to believe this. Can you actually even give a single reason for guilt to be the driving force?

“I suppose you are trapped in a kind of slavery yourself, with no way out.”
I am no slave, but it is clear that you are one to hatred and bigotry. You’ve pushed God out of your life and are now trying to do the same for others under the pretext of pretending to do otherwise.

The religions cult you are trying to build around yourself is built out of nothing but wishful thinking, a desire to think yourself superior to those around you; not surprising that you would choose racial supremacy to help support it. You’ve replaced prayer with something that has not made you more intelligent but the complete opposite; you have become stupid in you arrogance and lost complete sight of basic reason.

You claim that you want to end the wars yet all you do is attack those trying to actually do so, you claim that you will fight for and die for people such as the Rohingya. Yet it is obvious you’ve never done anything for them but try to make a scapegoat out of the very people who actually have. Would you like one of those medals you like to hand out so much for all you like to imagine yourself doing for the Rohingya?

Shnny, what happened to me, happens to very few people. I shouldn’t even be alive, it nearly cost me my life to learn prayer pushes away god. But I’m learning it may not be something I should share. Few if any want to stand back and ask about how we should relate to god. I can because of my experience. I’m asking too much, to ask people to try another way to stop the killing and abuse.

No one is stopping you praying, all I can do is tell you, it is a pagan act, in existence before our main religions. You will find prayer and praise in voodoo. You will find prayer and praise in people flying planes into world trade centres, at the heart of the first and second world wars, behind the atom bombs dropped on Japan.

But like I say, you see a supremacist, I see someone on god’s side, one of billions on god’s side of a war with god.

I am on humanities side, a god fighter, human defender, and particularly as a black man, a defender of light people who hold the key to stopping the war with god and humans killing humans.

I test and use my theory everyday, it is blindingly obvious to me religion is at the heart of conflict with god. But you are blind to it. If you do ever see what I’m talking about, don’t expect the change to come from god, it will only come from your humanity.

“what happened to me, happens to very few people. I shouldn’t even be alive, it nearly cost me my life to learn prayer pushes away god.”
We’ve been over this before, what you were doing was not praying, it was begging. Prayer is a conversation both listing and talking to God. You cannot have a relationship with someone if all you either do is talk to them like you did before or only listen. A conversation is both ways, unfortunately you are not really listening to him, just yourself. Your pain yoga does not increase intelligence or awareness as many studies can attest but tends to do the opposite.
What was the disease you had?

“You will find prayer and praise in voodoo. You will find prayer and praise in people flying planes into world trade centres, at the heart of the first and second world wars, behind the atom bombs dropped on Japan.”
You can also find that those people drink water and wear clothes. By this logic drinking water and wearing clothes is behind all these things. There quite a number of terrorists that practice pain yoga and sports as well throughout history, I can just as easily link those to actions such as these by that logic.

“I am on humanities side, a god fighter, human defender, and particularly as a black man, a defender of light people who hold the key to stopping the war with god and humans killing humans.”
There have been multiple times in history in which black men were actually dominant and the ones waging the wars. You’ve established that besides making a false scapegoat out of other races and religions, besides your own of course, that you have not actually really done anything such as for the Rohingya to really help others. You are a complete fraud when it comes to being a human defendor.
Every view you have on race is neither based on knowledge of the current world or history. Every race has guilt when it comes to the different atrocities committed throughout history. Your black supremacy is one of those causing factors.

“I test and use my theory everyday”
Your theory fails every test imaginable, you’ve never tested it, you’ve own seen what you want to, even when what you see it in blatant contradiction with reality. It is not surprising that your theology became self-contradicting. You believe in a petty and week god who would wage war on people simply because people talk to him who is also conveniently racist.

Shonny, your replies, are godless, they lack compassion, they sound angry. You are helping me confirm that your prayers, are making you even more godless. You fail to see that god probably operates subconsciously. To function you need to rest from god, and you need to attract god. There is a price to religion, that distresses you to see, it may even have created your light skin.

Little I say will make any sense, most of what you say comes from a light person that loves religion. ISIS are trying to fight you, simply because of your light skin, but they will only win if they become light. I agree, that aggression can be found in dark skin, dark skin can be godless, using religion. But now that light skin has become established, most can see that there are few dark countries in a position to war with lighter countries.

You cannot help being light, I cannot help being dark. Our colour is not of our choosing, but we can choose to understand it, if it helps humanity. I would be the first to dismiss what I believe, the minute I see flaws. But despite your godlessness, I see no flaws. But I do see the role of dark skin, and a role for light skin, I see interdependence. Higher consciousness, of light skin, and higher intelligence of dark skin.

What will do us no good is lies, If I’m lying, then I will not help humanity, I will be condemned, and rightly so. But we are being read, no one intervenes, not even James, because there is something in what I say. It comes from reasoning, I try to keep it simple. But I haven’t reached you. You cannot see your godlessness. I can

“your replies, are godless, they lack compassion, they sound angry”
Going back over some of the things you have said;

“Thanks to your prayers, the killing in Las Vegas, Canada, France, many other places, will continue. Surely you deserve a medal for your prayers.”
“I thank people like you for the Kim Jong-un’s, the Stalins, and many others. Thanks Shonny for giving man atheism, maybe I should get you another shiney medal.”
“Your medal looks great on you. Have you said your prayers today? I’ll have to get you another one.”

You have not been showing compassion in these statements and certainly sounds angry, if this is a sign of godlessness then you have it in spades.

“it may even have created your light skin.”
Where are you getting the idea that I have light skin? Do you automatically conclude everyone you disagree with on this topic must surely have light skin to do so?

“Our colour is not of our choosing, but we can choose to understand it, if it helps humanity.”
Again assuming that I am light skinned. Your “understanding” of it not only lacks scientific backing but goes against much of science that has very well debunked this line of thinking. Race does not cause people to be these things, what gives you the notion that God would create races such to be this way?

“I see interdependence. Higher consciousness, of light skin, and higher intelligence of dark skin.”
How about you try to research this and see if you can find even one study that supports this view. This is a heavily studied topic and those studies go completely against what you are trying to argue.

“If I’m lying, then I will not help humanity”
Does it occur to you that you have not helped humanity? Humanity is not better off because of your claims and you do not seem interested in doing actual help such as feeding the poor, donating blood, or volunteering to work at places such as food pantries. You would rather make accusations against those that do.

“But we are being read, no one intervenes, not even James, because there is something in what I say.”
How do you know he does not intervene because rather than something in what you say there is something in what I say? There are quite a number of internet conversations in which it is only two people without anyone else intervening, no that does not mean that there is something in what one of them says.

“It comes from reasoning, I try to keep it simple.”
Reasoning that has been absurdly absent from your conversation, you do not research before your conclusions and you created a self-contradicting theology for your religion and you made the conclusion that I must be light skinned without basis.

Shonny, pointing out the consequences of your religion, is an attempt to reach you. And I notice your mind hasn’t changed, neither has mine. Colour bothers you, any thinking about colour brands the person a supremacist. You mix race with colour, I do not. nor do I think race is as important as colour. But it continues to be like talking to a chimpanzee through a brick wall.

Discussing sensitive subjects, your religion demonstrates and brings out the worst of Shonny, Your religion compromises your mental health. Nothing makes sense, we have no common ground, another source of tension. But it was interesting talking to you.

Ironic that you are discussing coming to someone out of compassion and then calling them a Chimpanzee. It is unfortunate that you’ve failed to put basic thought or research into your beliefs before you became a black supremacist and trying to fight people actually doing work to actually help others while only pretending to do so yourself.

James Bishop

James is from South Africa. He is a graduate in Creative Brand Communication and Marketing (CBC) & Theology (majoring in psychology). James obtained his BTh with cum laude, and is currently pursuing his postgraduate in Religious Studies.