general hunting can't explain anything to me. I have eyes. Also he can't explain anything without insulting. (mind that he insulted alex first in their convo)We like different tennis that's all. I'm not attacking your opinion or his for that matter.

I couldn't care less about any record let alone record about Federer and Nadal.

I don't care if any of the offensive players I follow, don't win sh!t, I'll still enjoy their tennis. To me it was never about winning everything, its what I wanna watch.

Why should I give up actually? I still have more than dozens of players who play tennis I like. There's Haas, Kohlschreiber, Wawrinka, Berdych, Tsonga, Blake, Federer, Janowitz, Sijsling, Dimitrov, Gulbis, Mahut, Brands, Llodra etc etc so why should give up indeed?

Why does it trouble you so much if I prefer this tennis?I certainly don't mind or see any problems with the tennis you guys like, its just as I said -- not. my. cup. of. tea.

that post was not directed at you general lugburz.

it was directed to some in the masses who don't understand the actual state of the sport.you are one of the few who actually knows and understands the game.

I think some people are saying that atp resembles wta. those who are crying the hardest may want to start with the best tennis academies on the planet.

the game is being taught and being played exactly right because it is the only way a player can maximize his/her chances to win a match.

it is also the natural progression of the sport. you cant stop it.

time is coming when 120 MPH backhands and forehands will be common in the sport. it will be impossible to go to the net all.

and slice doesn't pay the mortgage either. how many slices did you see in that final between andy and nole.it is nice to have for some variety but the best players eat slices for breakfast.

people who cant stand the sport because of way it is evolving need to go take up bass fishing tournaments. lot less crying and very easy to follow.

go follow bass fishing tournaments if tennis bothers the hell out of you.

attacking, all court tennis is the thing of the past.

they know a little more than you do. they play to try to have a career while you b**ch and whine about nothing.

the greatest attacking, all court player of the all time and one of the greatest ever to play the game has a losing record to a guy who cant play at all.all that fool can do is hit forehand and run like hell. its is 20-10. what does that tell you?

I should say that he used to be able to run like hell. now he wakes up each days to find new ways to get out of practicing and working on his game.

or he gets on his indoor hard court to finish off his knee for good.

at this point i have to believe that some folks---like those worthless, stink and hate infested rats at mtf--- really don't understand exactly how the war has to be waged on the court and why it has to be waged that way.

general lugburz seems to be the only one who understands what is the exact state of affairs.

also I thought general huntingyou explained the deal yesterday.

Thanks for reinforcing our opinion. Only a simpleton would enjoy such type of play from the masses.

I can only speak for myself, but the point is, when the majority of players resort to more conservative play (thanks to changes in technology, court surface, and player athleticism), it leads to a less contrasting style of tennis ala WTA.

Heck, even bass fishing has more variety than that. Variety of style, tactics, and equipment.

What a shame to see the 2 Wimbledon finalists (both fairly decent servers) getting broken so often and have their serves nullified on whatever surface that was they were playing on this Sunday past.

even nick bollitieri was forced to install some clay courts at his academy. he finally gets it.

you are a nobody on the tour if you don't have a viable ground game.

a rocket serve and a missile forehand cant do the job. you can make a bit of a living but you will never win anything of any importance. in fact more than likely, you will just starve to death like so many others.

most tennis pros don't even have the money to travel around the world to play the various events so they can improve.

life is brutal at the challenger and futures level.

nick bollitieri got very lucky that he had players like Agassi, jim courier, and maria sharapova and the like to work with. they were not ordinary athletes. they were the best of the best.

most of his students starve to death on the tour. and that is if they even make it there.

even nick bollitieri was forced to install some clay courts at his academy. he finally gets it.

you are a nobody on the tour if you don't have a viable ground game.

a rocket serve and a missile forehand cant do the job. you can make a bit of a living but you will never win anything of any importance. in fact more than likely, you will just starve to death like so many others.

most tennis pros don't even have the money to travel around the world to play the various events so they can improve.

life is brutal at the challenger and futures level.

nick bollitieri got very lucky that he had players like Agassi, jim courier, and maria sharapova and the like to work with. they were not ordinary athletes. they were the best of the best.

most of his students starve to death on the tour. and that is if they even make it there.

Gem!

I do agree with bab to a certain extend, the ATP could use some type of equipment control similar to NASCAR but not as strict. The technology it's going to keep improving but I'm not sure that's a good thing. Maybe in 20 years a racket made out moonstone will be able to allow players to hit as hard as they can while keeping the ball in play on command? What would happen then? Or maybe we are in the phase of diminishing returns where technology can't go against the law of physics, thus staying stagnant for years to come.

Personally, courts like Miami for example and Madrid are a disgrace. There should be slow HC as well as fast HC but not that slow. You have to take the weather into account as well. I real grass season where players have two months of grass tennis would force some variety into the game.......and that's a good thing. The point it's too slow it's bad, too fast it's bad but an amicable spectrum between IW and Cincinnati for outdoor hards would be perfect. Indoor season would be nice but at that point the calendar would be too long. Some mandatory events would have to go.

Call it 5 season of tennis:

slow outdoor hards with the AO (one mandatory event and a Slam)Clay with RG (two mandatory events and a Slam)Two Grass mandatory events culminating at Wimbledonfast outdoor hards with UO (one mandatory event and a Slam)and a real indoor FAST season (two mandatory events and WTF with best of five for final and no RR)

slow outdoor hards with the AO (one mandatory event and a Slam)Clay with RG (two mandatory events and a Slam)Two Grass mandatory events culminating at Wimbledonfast outdoor hards with UO (one mandatory event and a Slam)and a real indoor FAST season (two mandatory events and WTF with best of five for final and no RR)

This looks good. I do like the round robin though at the WTF. The final could be best of 5 there adding to the distinction of being at the end of season.

general hunting can't explain anything to me. I have eyes. Also he can't explain anything without insulting. (mind that he insulted alex first in their convo)We like different tennis that's all. I'm not attacking your opinion or his for that matter.

I couldn't care less about any record let alone record about Federer and Nadal.

I don't care if any of the offensive players I follow, don't win sh!t, I'll still enjoy their tennis. To me it was never about winning everything, its what I wanna watch.

Why should I give up actually? I still have more than dozens of players who play tennis I like. There's Haas, Kohlschreiber, Wawrinka, Berdych, Tsonga, Blake, Federer, Janowitz, Sijsling, Dimitrov, Gulbis, Mahut, Brands, Llodra etc etc so why should give up indeed?

Why does it trouble you so much if I prefer this tennis?I certainly don't mind or see any problems with the tennis you guys like, its just as I said -- not. my. cup. of. tea.

that post was not directed at you general lugburz.

it was directed to some in the masses who don't understand the actual state of the sport.you are one of the few who actually knows and understands the game.

I think some people are saying that atp resembles wta. those who are crying the hardest may want to start with the best tennis academies on the planet.

the game is being taught and being played exactly right because it is the only way a player can maximize his/her chances to win a match.

it is also the natural progression of the sport. you cant stop it.

time is coming when 120 MPH backhands and forehands will be common in the sport. it will be impossible to go to the net all.

and slice doesn't pay the mortgage either. how many slices did you see in that final between andy and nole.it is nice to have for some variety but the best players eat slices for breakfast.

people who cant stand the sport because of way it is evolving need to go take up bass fishing tournaments. lot less crying and very easy to follow.

sorry general herc, I thought you were thinking of me when saying that we always b**ch and whine about the game.Also I though you were being sarcastic when you said that I understand what is the exact state of affairs.

But yeah I admit I might sometimes sound whiny about the thing I usually love. In this case its tennis, I'm all the same when it comes to music or movies for that matter. Another area where I happen to be involved and can distinguish quality from bad marketing.I simply express my opinion what I don't like in which direction certain issue is going. Its evident that the quality of mainstream music and movies today tremendously dropped.That's something I don't wanna see in tennis. I was raised in a family who followed tennis in our country when the rest of the country didn't know how that sport is played until Djokovic burst into scene.

general hunting can't explain anything to me. I have eyes. Also he can't explain anything without insulting. (mind that he insulted alex first in their convo)We like different tennis that's all. I'm not attacking your opinion or his for that matter.

I couldn't care less about any record let alone record about Federer and Nadal.

I don't care if any of the offensive players I follow, don't win sh!t, I'll still enjoy their tennis. To me it was never about winning everything, its what I wanna watch.

Why should I give up actually? I still have more than dozens of players who play tennis I like. There's Haas, Kohlschreiber, Wawrinka, Berdych, Tsonga, Blake, Federer, Janowitz, Sijsling, Dimitrov, Gulbis, Mahut, Brands, Llodra etc etc so why should give up indeed?

Why does it trouble you so much if I prefer this tennis?I certainly don't mind or see any problems with the tennis you guys like, its just as I said -- not. my. cup. of. tea.

that post was not directed at you general lugburz.

it was directed to some in the masses who don't understand the actual state of the sport.you are one of the few who actually knows and understands the game.

I think some people are saying that atp resembles wta. those who are crying the hardest may want to start with the best tennis academies on the planet.

the game is being taught and being played exactly right because it is the only way a player can maximize his/her chances to win a match.

it is also the natural progression of the sport. you cant stop it.

time is coming when 120 MPH backhands and forehands will be common in the sport. it will be impossible to go to the net all.

and slice doesn't pay the mortgage either. how many slices did you see in that final between andy and nole.it is nice to have for some variety but the best players eat slices for breakfast.

people who cant stand the sport because of way it is evolving need to go take up bass fishing tournaments. lot less crying and very easy to follow.

sorry general herc, I thought you were thinking of me when saying that we always b**ch and whine about the game.Also I though you were being sarcastic when you said that I understand what is the exact state of affairs.

But yeah I admit I might sometimes sound whiny about the thing I usually love. In this case its tennis, I'm all the same when it comes to music or movies for that matter. Another area where I happen to be involved and can distinguish quality from bad marketing.I simply express my opinion what I don't like in which direction certain issue is going. Its evident that the quality of mainstream music and movies today tremendously dropped.That's something I don't wanna see in tennis. I was raised in a family who followed tennis in our country when the rest of the country didn't know how that sport is played until Djokovic burst into scene.

you are one of the coolest cats I know general lugburz.

lot of my posts are directed at the rats from mtf. as you and I know, some folks continue to see the tennis world through mtf colored glasses.

I know for a fact that a lot of folks from mtf read the castle and tennis4you.

Personally, courts like Miami for example and Madrid are a disgrace. There should be slow HC as well as fast HC but not that slow. You have to take the weather into account as well. I real grass season where players have two months of grass tennis would force some variety into the game.......and that's a good thing. The point it's too slow it's bad, too fast it's bad but an amicable spectrum between IW and Cincinnati for outdoor hards would be perfect. Indoor season would be nice but at that point the calendar would be too long. Some mandatory events would have to go.

Call it 5 season of tennis:

slow outdoor hards with the AO (one mandatory event and a Slam)Clay with RG (two mandatory events and a Slam)Two Grass mandatory events culminating at Wimbledonfast outdoor hards with UO (one mandatory event and a Slam)and a real indoor FAST season (two mandatory events and WTF with best of five for final and no RR)

Basically now you are stating what I was saying from the beginning of our misunderstanding.I agree with this and have been repeating about the disgrace of Miami, Wimbledon and IW many times. Its really ridiculous how those surfaces are slow. Madrid also, the other way around ofc.

lot of my posts are directed at the rats from mtf. as you and I know, some folks continue to see the tennis world through mtf colored glasses.

I know for a fact that a lot of folks from mtf read the castle and tennis4you.

we are popular general lugburz.

thx general, the feeling is mutual.

Also, forget about MTF, I really couldn't care less about their biased and nonsensical trolling that only make sense in their minds.There's a lot of teenage and immature drama going on that its painful. There are many great posters but unfortunately they live in a shadow of many childish and immature delusional fanboys who don't know anything about the game.So I wouldn't worry about them. They are millions of light years away from here.

Personally, courts like Miami for example and Madrid are a disgrace. There should be slow HC as well as fast HC but not that slow. You have to take the weather into account as well. I real grass season where players have two months of grass tennis would force some variety into the game.......and that's a good thing. The point it's too slow it's bad, too fast it's bad but an amicable spectrum between IW and Cincinnati for outdoor hards would be perfect. Indoor season would be nice but at that point the calendar would be too long. Some mandatory events would have to go.

Call it 5 season of tennis:

slow outdoor hards with the AO (one mandatory event and a Slam)Clay with RG (two mandatory events and a Slam)Two Grass mandatory events culminating at Wimbledonfast outdoor hards with UO (one mandatory event and a Slam)and a real indoor FAST season (two mandatory events and WTF with best of five for final and no RR)

Basically now you are stating what I was saying from the beginning of our misunderstanding.I agree with this and have been repeating about the disgrace of Miami, Wimbledon and IW many times. Its really ridiculous how those surfaces are slow. Madrid also, the other way around ofc.

There was no misunderstanding on my part, I was speaking strictly style of play and how the surface at this point it's irrelevant in regards to modern baseline game.

There is nothing wrong with Wimbledon, the grass ALWAYS get's worn down......I just don't understand what's the issue here? I saw Agassi win it all back in 1992 from behind the baseline and then saw Courier make finals the following year. The ball bounce high because the spin and pace it's higher on average....today players don't hit flat at all. Federer himself has a spinny backhand and TONS of spin on his forehand.

I do agree Miami sucks, IW is not that bad because the dry desert weather makes the ball travel quick through the air. It could speed up a bit I guess but it won't change the game much. Madrid plays like freaking ice...no traction, very slippery.

If you want to "fix" Wimbledon; you have to restrict matches on center court...no doubles and minimum single in order to preserve the surface better. If the grass it's change back to what it was, the bad bounces by the time weak #2 hit will be unbearable and their will be even less grass left since the previous mix was softer and not as durable.

I wasn't thinking about this misunderstanding but nevermind, water under the bridge.

Now I've heard many times before that they didn't do anything about the grass at Wimbly, but how come there were many players complaining about it? And don't mention 1st-2nd week at Wimbledon. I'm well aware of that. The thing is 10+ years ago the grass of 2nd week t Wimbly even looked way worse and yet there were still players who were offensive minded and who S&V as well.

What Stachovsky did to Fed in 2nd round, he could never repeat it in 2nd week at Wimbly. 15 years ago? More likely.

Not to mention that even in 2009 Haas did beat Djokovic in QF's basically S&Ved to the semis.

I wasn't thinking about this misunderstanding but nevermind, water under the bridge.

Now I've heard many times before that they didn't do anything about the grass at Wimbly, but how come there were many players complaining about it? And don't mention 1st-2nd week at Wimbledon. I'm well aware of that. The thing is 10+ years ago the grass of 2nd week t Wimbly even looked way worse and yet there were still players who were offensive minded and who S&V as well.

What Stachovsky did to Fed in 2nd round, he could never repeat it in 2nd week at Wimbly. 15 years ago? More likely.

Not to mention that even in 2009 Haas did beat Djokovic in QF's basically S&Ved to the semis.

The grass change happened in 2002, Federer still S&V his way to a 2003 title. The reason there is no player doing today it's because there are no players capable of winning with such game at Wimbledon. You bring Stachovsky but this my friend it's irrelevant; he got lucky against an aging player that hasn't look the part the entire year.

You just admitted yourself, Haas did great in 2009 by attacking the net but that's more unique to his own level of play than whatever style he used. It happened in 2009...certainly the surface didn't stop him from S&V.

Check it out, the fastest grass of old.........but guess what? It didn't change how these two players approach their match. Shorter points yes......from the baseline never the less and still tons of rallies.

Fair enough but that wasn't my point. Haas already had his style of play which was never about anything besides all-around, in particular. He can't be that affected by changes like some others such as Llodra, Mahut, Dent who are primarily S&V players. So the surface didn't stop him, but more S&V players certainly stopped them.

Side note, Haas S&Ved through whole 2009, winning Halle that way and making semis in Wimbly. That's just saying how he can adjust his game if he feels like it whether it was because he didn't risk longer points or it was simply strategy.

Also you were the one who said that Haas is baseliner, which I can agree even though what you said next that he's only 'special' because of his backhand is completely wrong. In todays game he's much more special not only because of his 1hbh but his ability to do things he's done at 35, having a style of play thats a thing of past and still trouble all this youngsters at their conditions. At 35 he lost QF and 4th round vs #1 player in a world. That's not special enough to you?Same player he beat in Miami which we discussed where he's not that comfortable considering how cold and how slow surface is for him. But he beat him because of his ability to use variety and change his game with chip and charges and offensive slices. Djokovic was outplayed in every aspect there. And thats some record that hasn't happened in 30 years or so for a guy at 35 to beat current #1. But sure he's only 'special' because of his 1hbh. right.

Back to the topic..

Quote

The reason there is no player doing today it's because there are no players capable of winning with such game at Wimbledon.

Precisely. and why is that? Surely not all players have passing shots like Nadal or Murray. My point still stands that the surface can be a huge factor to players who depend on S&V.Don't know how you can't see Stachovsky as perfect example of this. He'd never win vs Fed if he didn't do the same thing he did. And his volleys would never work in 2nd week. But you think that Fed losing to Stachovsky in 2nd round wasn't an upset

Fair enough but that wasn't my point. Haas already had his style of play which was never about anything besides all-around, in particular. He can't be that affected by changes like some others such as Llodra, Mahut, Dent who are primarily S&V players. So the surface didn't stop him, but more S&V players certainly stopped them.

Side note, Haas S&Ved through whole 2009, winning Halle that way and making semis in Wimbly. That's just saying how he can adjust his game if he feels like it whether it was because he didn't risk longer points or it was simply strategy.

Also you were the one who said that Haas is baseliner, which I can agree even though what you said next that he's only 'special' because of his backhand is completely wrong. In todays game he's much more special not only because of his 1hbh but his ability to do things he's done at 35, having a style of play thats a thing of past and still trouble all this youngsters at their conditions. At 35 he lost QF and 4th round vs #1 player in a world. That's not special enough to you?Same player he beat in Miami which we discussed where he's not that comfortable considering how cold and how slow surface is for him. But he beat him because of his ability to use variety and change his game with chip and charges and offensive slices. Djokovic was outplayed in every aspect there. And thats some record that hasn't happened in 30 years or so for a guy at 35 to beat current #1. But sure he's only 'special' because of his 1hbh. right.

Back to the topic..

Quote

The reason there is no player doing today it's because there are no players capable of winning with such game at Wimbledon.

Precisely. and why is that? Surely not all players have passing shots like Nadal or Murray. My point still stands that the surface can be a huge factor to players who depend on S&V.Don't know how you can't see Stachovsky as perfect example of this. He'd never win vs Fed if he didn't do the same thing he did. And his volleys would never work in 2nd week. But you think that Fed losing to Stachovsky in 2nd round wasn't an upset

Haas is not especial to me, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder and this particular "beholder" doesn't find his tennis special. He has no dominant stroke and moves well but after watching the top 4 for many years; the standard was set very high for movement. Regardless of how you feel about the top 4 and few other players like Delpo for example; they have something that makes then undeniably special. Nadal's forehand and defense, Federer's forehand and improvisation, Novak's ROS and backhand, Murray's tennis IQ, and backhand........these people stand out and they did since they were kids.

It's ok if he is your guy and you find him special. You like his ability to mix it up and actually win matches that way. At the end of the day, he makes a living from the baseline; hitting mediocre forehands and beautiful 1HBH. Trust me, Haas is known because he uses a 1HBH; a dying specie in today's game.

Regarding the surfaces and S&V game; you really don't get it. Baby Hewitt was cleaning the floor with Rafter, Sampras, Henman; you name it. He made then look OUTDATED; which is what they were. A grinding kid with incredible court coverage and ability to absorb pace ala Agassi. So you tell me the surface changes killed variety including S&V and I tell you HEWITT and his new and improve approach to the game kill the S&V game for good.

So tell me, why a young Hewitt since the late 90s early 00s when the surfaces were still the same was putting a beating on those guys? Maybe baseliner>S&V? It was funny listening to Sampras talk about Hewitt......you thought he was talking about a prodigy.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on your views on Haas and your view on top 4. Seems like you need to watch more tennis outside top players. By your criteria its fair to say that Haas is known for his backhand and variety.

Hewitt was a special case. He was that good that he could trouble all those you mentioned. You always have few exceptions defying the odds.