Well I'm 3w4, but I can most definitely see a 4 EIE. They'd definitely be quirkier, weirder, less image conscious than I am..

Fay, I love your avatar picture btw. So Beta NF haha

aww, thanks I really like your avi too!

I think most of the EIEs are 3s or maybe 2s. I see 4 to be rare for this type, though I might be wrong, it's still imagine oriented and emotionally heavy which is all in tune with Fe+Ni, only the emphasis it puts on individuality and identity is kind of in constrast with Fe imo... I have a hard time seeing myself as Fe user, even though a lot of people do see me like one, because of that identity vs. image thing.

I don't want to seem like an arguing pain in the ass, but Ni is more 6 enna wise that 7 imo... I think ST betas can easily be 7s , but NF betas are far closer to 6s... At least that's how I think of the whole ennea/quadra thing.

I think 4s are generally more self conscious and would internalize their emotions more than a typical EIE would.. of course it's theoretically possible but I can't think of anybody I've typed as EIE 4. If they're a 4 they're probably IEI

I wouldn't establish direct correlations between enneagrams and IEs, there are higher probabilities for some combinations than others but imo not enough to make them into solid rules (yet?)

Thinking of it I do know one EIE e4. They're indeed not socially extraverted, more prone to sitting on the sidelines, feeling out of place, and zero-ing in on people (influenced by likely sx-dom.) However they do selectively show high and wide-ranging emotionality. They dress in a noticeably dramatic and unusual style and have a long history of imagining themselves as characters in various stories or worlds, which leads to trying best as they can to act as in they were a part of those worlds.

The relationship between enneagram and sociotypes hasn't ever been elucidated, but from personal experience of typing a whole bunch of ppl I haven't found a single EIE 4 in all these years. And while this doesn't prove that this combination is impossible, by this time I think that it's very very rare to say the least. Most of the EIEs who superficially seemed to be 4s at closer inspection turned out to be 3w4s putting their 4 wing to creative use, 6w7/7w6s inclined to artistic expression, and at times even 9s who were emulating the "undisciplined extravagance" associated with type 4.

In one Big5/Enneagram study conducted by the Enneagram Institute Type 4 correlated negatively with extraversion:

SubT did a great job with the statistics, based on the information available at the time, but keep in mind that some of those people may have changed socionics, instincts, and/or enneagram self-typings (several times over) since it was posted.

SubT did a great job with the statistics, based on the information available at the time, but keep in mind that some of those people may have changed socionics, instincts, and/or enneagram self-typings (several times over) since it was posted.

Yes, changing one's type or enneagram typing does seem to happen a lot. (I always expect to see jitter in real-world data.) However, the data is very interesting as an indicator, if not a definition. For example, IEI's tend to be e4's, SLI's and ILI's and LSI's tend to be e5's, ESI's seem to be e6's, LIE's tend to be e8's, and ILE's are all over the map. This corresponds well with my own experience. Beyond that, though, all is shrouded in mist. The definitional lens is sharp only in some places.

Do EIE 4s exist, or is it just an old myth that's never really been put into life?

I know a couple, yes. They are clearly different from the other EIEs I know that are of different enneatypes.

Originally Posted by silke

The relationship between enneagram and sociotypes hasn't ever been elucidated, but from personal experience of typing a whole bunch of ppl I haven't found a single EIE 4 in all these years. And while this doesn't prove that this combination is impossible, by this time I think that it's very very rare to say the least. Most of the EIEs who superficially seemed to be 4s at closer inspection turned out to be 3w4s putting their 4 wing to creative use, 6w7/7w6s inclined to artistic expression, and at times even 9s who were emulating the "undisciplined extravagance" associated with type 4.

The ones I know are definitely not core 3's.

In one Big5/Enneagram study conducted by the Enneagram Institute Type 4 correlated negatively with extraversion:

That -0.27 is hardly even significant and doesn't at all exclude the possibility of EIE 4's existing.

this is how i'm interpreting the data in the Enneagram/Big 5 table (and i'm not sure i'm doing it correctly): assuming a normal distribution, a z-score of -0.27 calculates to about 39% probability (p = 0.39358). so that would mean there's a 39% chance that people who are Type 4 will also be Extraverted, and a 61% chance that they will score low on Extraversion (i.e. are Introverted).

another example: Type 1's Conscientious z-score = 0.66, calculating to about 75% probability (p = 0.745373), meaning there is a 75% probability that Type 1s are Conscientious, and a 25% probability that they score low on this trait.

i think these examples make sense for the respective types. but could someone who knows how to interpret statistical data verify if this is correct?

It's worth asking the difference between intro*spection* and introversion. My understanding is a lot of E4s are yes, due to the proximity of E5 on the symbol, influenced by a sense of unrelatedness to the outside and so on, leading them to more likely conceptualize answers to standard feeling triad questions e.g. "what is my value/significance" using a mining for their most authentic self (as opposed to seeking admiration).

Overall this falls more into the introspection category than introversion, albeit the former is related to the latter, just far from one-to-one.

If I had to be restrictive about what sociotype tends to or tends to not be a certain Jungian type, I'd say it's E5 that strikes me as most likely to have an introverted Jungian outlook, and that any such claims about E4 are merely derivative of this one. Note, of course, that this does depend on which of the many enneatype versions we're using.

Second remark is that sociotype is recording only core informational philosophy relevant to the ego, whereas Big 5 is surveying many facets, some not very related to cognitive philosophy (in fact, which ones are tested differs across inventory, so there's truly nothing exact, just statistical) of their version of extroversion. It's quite conceivable various instances of types like ILE or EIE for one thing are not extroverted in the Big 5 inventory.

I know one and enneagram 4w5, Ni subtype.
He's so introverted and it's like what have been said, they internalize their emotions more than the EIE enneagram 3.
He doesn't care about his appearence at all, He's also smart, artistic, calm and collected but there are times when he will create a scene and be dramatic.
He lives in isolation, very mistrustful of people but suprisingly he is very well liked by people.
I typed him IEI at first, as the only obvious function is Ni. But after knowing about the tempermants and all, I considered EIE.
But they sure are rare than other enneagrams.

I'm an ESE type 4, and was professionally typed. I think any of the feelers can be an E4.
However, I have never met an EIE E4. Many EIE 3w4s though.
I don't see why an Fe lead cannot be an E4? It is a feeling/heart/shame type.
Maybe someone can explain why an EIE or ESE could not be a 4....

All that said most E4s I know are IEIs and EIIs.

“Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace.”

Type 4 is about endless self introspection, trying to constantly define how they personally feel about things at unhealthy levels. That's pretty Fi. Fi can include static relationship dynamics, but reducing it to that is foolish due to its limitations. Type 4s often have elitist tastes and personal views and opinions on things, in a manner that is also more typical of Fi than Fe. Fi is about internal static attitudes, whereas Fe is much more about impacting and maneuvering the emotional atmosphere of others. Someone who's Fi ignoring, personal static attitudes ignoring... how are they Type 4. I suppose you could argue for the potentiality of such a combo, because it's not as ridiculous as SEE 5... But still. Well again, never met an EIE 4 before, and likely never will. Same for ESE 4 for that matter.

If Fi wasn't a crucial factor, what else? Ni? In that case, Gamma NTs could be Type 4 too. I've never met a Logical type 4 however, and that makes even less sense than an EIE 4.

At the end of the day, Type 4 is characterized by strong Fi (not ignoring) and Ni to some extent. At least that has been my experience when typing people, and it makes sense to me when I read the descriptions.

P.S.: Theoretically an SEI should be able to be Type 4 because of strong dem Fi, no? The crux here seems to be the lack of Ni HA and lack of strong intuition in general. There are no type 4s in the Alpha quadra. This also correlates with the overall impression of Alpha being a "light" quadra etc. 4s exist in every quadra but Alpha. I thought that was an interesting finding.

P.S.: Theoretically an SEI should be able to be Type 4 because of strong dem Fi, no? The crux here seems to be the lack of Ni HA and lack of strong intuition in general. There are no type 4s in the Alpha quadra. This also correlates with the overall impression of Alpha being a "light" quadra etc. 4s exist in every quadra but Alpha. I thought that was an interesting finding.

Type 4 is about endless self introspection, trying to constantly define how they personally feel about things at unhealthy levels. That's pretty Fi. Fi can include static relationship dynamics, but reducing it to that is foolish due to its limitations. Type 4s often have elitist tastes and personal views and opinions on things, in a manner that is also more typical of Fi than Fe. Fi is about internal static attitudes, whereas Fe is much more about impacting and maneuvering the emotional atmosphere of others. Someone who's Fi ignoring, personal static attitudes ignoring... how are they Type 4. I suppose you could argue for the potentiality of such a combo, because it's not as ridiculous as SEE 5... But still. Well again, never met an EIE 4 before, and likely never will. Same for ESE 4 for that matter.

If Fi wasn't a crucial factor, what else? Ni? In that case, Gamma NTs could be Type 4 too. I've never met a Logical type 4 however, and that makes even less sense than an EIE 4.

At the end of the day, Type 4 is characterized by strong Fi (not ignoring) and Ni to some extent. At least that has been my experience when typing people, and it makes sense to me when I read the descriptions.

The crucial factor is simply Feeling, not Fi. So yeah, no, Logical types aren't going to be 4.

What limitations do you see with seeing Fi as Static attitudes? You yourself say the same. Where I said "feeling relationships" I meant the feelings themselves, the attitudes, in terms of how they relate to each other (so relationships between them).

I've seen EIE 4 but I think I already posted that here

P.S.: Theoretically an SEI should be able to be Type 4 because of strong dem Fi, no? The crux here seems to be the lack of Ni HA and lack of strong intuition in general. There are no type 4s in the Alpha quadra. This also correlates with the overall impression of Alpha being a "light" quadra etc. 4s exist in every quadra but Alpha. I thought that was an interesting finding.

You assume too much about the motivational-emotional patterns of Enneagram types based on the simplistic Socionics model on information processing side of cognition. There are some links between the two but unfortunately it's not this absolute in many cases because the aspects of information processing that Socionics cover are far from the complete picture in terms of explanatory power for the motivational-emotional side of things. So. Type 4 doesn't really need Intuition, just Feeling (this does seem like an absolute link because there is a match definitionally), though very strong focus on Se would go against it (not entirely sure if it would always exclude type 4 motivations tho').

I gave you an example of an SEI 4 in Melanie Lynskey some time back, when I thought she reminded me of the way you come across in picture/video. You can argue against that typing for her if you'd like, but there are numerous others.

Originally Posted by the enneagram institute

Key Motivations: Want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty, to maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw to protect their self-image, to take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else, to attract a "rescuer."

That looks more like Si, Fe, and Fi to me. . . . and SEIs, EIIs, IEIs could all fit that easily.

IEE are Ni ignoring and Fi creative, so by your stance that 4's should be strong in Fi and Ni and EIE can't be 4's because they are Fi ignoring (though they are still Ni creative), why would you say IEE could potentially be 4's and not EIE?

Originally Posted by jxrtes

betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.