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00:06:22 How do I produce the effect of returning from a handler-case clause in a handler-bind binding?
00:06:39 i.e. continue execution from the end of the handler-bind form.
00:06:45 By performing a non-local exit such as tagbody/go, block/return-from, etc.
00:07:02 catch/throw is the other one.
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00:08:07 so no automatically generated thing to return-from or something?
00:08:13 damn
00:08:27 If you want handler-case, you know where to find it.
00:09:00 nyef: yeah but I need handler-bind for another thing, and it seems silly to wrap one in the other.
00:09:11 Then use a non-local exit.
00:10:38 Yes, it's possibly another indent level, but it's only two spaces. And each function is an implicit BLOCK, and implicit TAGBODYs show up in some of the oddest places (well, to my intuition, which admittedly hasn't properly been tuned for implicit tagbody).
00:11:29 *Ralith* will just stack the handlers
00:11:30 thanks
00:11:32 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit []
00:11:42 No problem. Good luck with your program.
00:15:56 has anyone ever done something with CL where errors cascade across threads using the condition system? (thread A spawns thread B, thread B errors, and A is able to handle it, and provide a restart)
00:16:11 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@host-241-72.pubnet.pdx.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
00:16:14 Not... intentionally.
00:16:24 And certainly not in a controlled fashion.
00:16:36 hm
00:16:40 guess it's worth a shot sykopomp: "errs"
00:17:03 sounds like a good way to get deadlocks
00:17:39 fe[nl]ix: ?
00:17:42 Note that you would have to have thread A -pause- until thread B exits for this scenario to be plausible, due to the dynamic extent of condition handlers.
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00:18:11 sykopomp: an "error" is a noun, to "err" is the verb.
00:18:33 nyef: and the proper plural of virus is virii
00:18:36 *shrug*
00:18:58 nyef: I'm thinking of something like what erlang does to handle process failures, but partly integrated with the condition system.
00:19:29 http://paste.lisp.org/display/87616 ("... what's the plural of snuffaluphagus?")
00:20:19 nyef: snuffaluphagai, perhaps
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00:22:14 snuffaluphagoi
00:23:30 This has to do with some quirk of latin noun endings depending on the third-to-last letter of the word?
00:24:38 isn't the "oi" ending Greek?
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00:25:45 In CL, do monads buy me anything that mutable closures do not?
00:26:06 nyef: phagus comes from greek phagos(pl. phagoi) and IIRC latin had the exception that words of greek origin are declined as in greek
00:26:09 piso: yes
00:28:37 emacs-dwim: I would imagine that monads are a letter-transposition away from being easily distributed, whereas mutable closures are a pain to move from one image/machine to another.
00:30:01 fe[nl]ix: Cool. Thanks for the language history lesson.
00:31:03 Is "phagos" also where we got the "-phage" suffix meaning, approximately, "-eater"?
00:31:30 yes
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00:32:33 This brings up the probably-silly possible meaning of "snuffaluphagus" of "one who eats tobacco". And we'll leave aside the possible (and sillier) Harry Potter reference.
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00:36:58 Is there a return statement in lisp?
00:37:02 nyef: mutable closures more so than immutable closures?
00:37:32 Retardedpope: No, because there are no statements in lisp. Yes, because Lisp does have a RETURN construct.
00:37:55 ok... (return 0) ?
00:38:14 pkhuong: Yes, if you want them to maintain coherency. It was also a play on monad/nomad.
00:39:19 Retardedpope: Rarely. A function contains an implicit block, which contains an implicit progn, which means that the value from evaluating the last form is returned as the value of the function, so we'd more see "0" than "(return 0)".
00:40:15 (RETURN and it's more flexible cousin RETURN-FROM are actually non-local control-flow operations.)
00:40:26 minion: Thwap for me, please.
00:40:26 nyef: look at Thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 )
00:40:39 -its- more flexible cousin.
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00:46:21 why is the thwap thing so popular?
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00:50:27 you are not allowed to ask that question
00:51:15 fe[nl]ix: *your
00:51:23 madnificent: have you been reading books ?
00:51:39 I'm calling the firemen
00:52:07 fe[nl]ix: what? how? why?
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00:55:26 madnificent: you're dangerously close to asking about the cabal, so let's leave it at that.
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00:57:03 madnificent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451
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01:01:15 *_3b* needs to find more time to work on cl-opengl apps, so i can actually build up some useful utility libs for it :/
01:01:52 Heh. I should probably find more time to sort out the GLX stuff in my CLX branch.
01:02:21 well, write a nice shader abstraction on top of it i can steal for cl-opengl too :)
01:03:04 Heh. Unlikely, given that texture mapping is still a little iffy.
01:04:06 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-afk
01:04:08 (It can only transfer textures that are a multiple of some particular number of octets on the wire, and I forget what the number is, though it might be four.)
01:05:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit []
01:05:44 yeah, didn't really expect GLX would support the stuff i'm messing with now :)
01:06:33 what do you guys use for decoding images ?
01:06:47 "decoding" in what sense?
01:07:00 *_3b* has used DevIL, lispbuilder-sdl-image, random lisp libs
01:07:25 decoding in the sense - load jpg/png to use as textures in cl-opengl
01:07:31 For my texture-mapping stuff, I just used ImageMagick.
01:07:51 sykopomp: I'm puzzled
01:08:32 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
01:08:35 madnificent: about?
01:08:42 Once I had it down to an RGBA bitmap, I could READ-SEQUENCE it just fine, and pass that sequence directly off to the GLX.
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01:09:09 cabal, fahrenheit 451, thwat... and the connection between it all
01:09:13 guess i should just grab one of my random old half finished shader libs and see if i can figure it out again
01:09:33 madnificent: I told you to not worry about it. Everything is o-kay :)
01:09:47 _3b: you could also try working on a matrix lib!
01:09:57 *madnificent* takes his pills and gets back in line
01:10:07 sykopomp: nah, got one of those
01:10:16 _3b: !!! link!
01:10:52 *_3b* us using nikodemus' sb-cga
01:10:58 oh
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01:12:00 http://random-state.net/files/sb-cga-0.1.tar.gz is it
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01:13:21 hm. How bad an idea is it to interrupt threads?
01:13:25 sykopomp: as part of a program's normal course? very.
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01:16:44 hmm, this shader code requires gl3, guess that is probably a bit higher than i want to require for this app
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01:23:27 pkhuong: do you think it's possible to link lisp threads up so you can do an exit signal-style thing as in erlang?
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01:25:16 poll on channel operations (or whichever other relevant operation that calls into your library)
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01:27:09 Since sbcl.sf.net doesn't provide Win32 binaries for all releases, is it fair to host build installers someplace else for others to download?
01:27:42 Sure, or you could inquire as to what would be required to provide official versions for sbcl.sf.net.
01:28:12 (Have any of the major SBCL/Win32 problems been ironed out while I was offline?)
01:28:29 nyef: don't think so
01:28:29 seemed worse last time i tried :(
01:28:37 Bummer.
01:28:52 I'd have thought that at least the external-format thing would get fixed at some point.
01:28:57 No official Win32 binaries are available for 1.0.30/31. Even the homepage doesn't reflect changes very often.
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01:29:20 *_3b* couldn't get recent slime/sbcl working with new-serve-event, didn't really try to debug much though
01:29:36 Oh boy.
01:29:53 And that leads to the question, "what broke?"
01:30:21 dunno, could be just something odd on the system i tried it on
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01:30:49 it seemed to load sbcl OK, but slime never connected
01:32:01 Were you using Cygwin Emacs?
01:32:09 *_3b* uses no cygwin
01:32:17 (at least not if i can avoid it)
01:32:33 Though, really, serve-event on win32 is always going to be a festering pit until something gets done about the use of file descriptors and the split between the event-notification and data-access handles for sockets (not to mention the other wierd notificaiton requirements for pipes and whatnot).
01:32:53 SBCL 1.0.31 seems to work fine here with CVS SLIME (fetched on 23rd) and Win32 native Emacs. Hmm!
01:33:19 [Jackal]: debugger works too?
01:33:19 [Jackal]: With or without new-serve-event? And does the debugger work properly as well?
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01:34:27 *_3b* tries
01:34:34 Used it to compile a project and it seemed to work ok. I mostly use Debian so haven't checked it further.
01:35:23 hmm, guess it does seem to work
01:36:02 though *communication-style* nil would probably be annoying
01:37:54 I would expect so, particularly with respect to actual GUI applications.
01:38:09 (Hence the entire point of new-serve-event in the first place.)
01:39:50 The other (fourth) annoyance with SBCL/Win32 (after line-endings, fixed memory maps/relocatable cores, and serve-event) is asynchronous interrupt handling (C-c / C-break at console, or C-c C-c in SLIME).
01:41:00 oh yeah, did you see someone was actually offering money towards sbcl win32 threading?
01:41:09 -!- hypnosis_ [n=hypnosis@unaffiliated/hypnosis] has quit [Success]
01:41:18 Yes, I did see.
01:42:17 Encouraging, certainly, but it's almost a token amount for the effort required.
01:42:24 Was the offer accepted?
01:42:32 yeah, figured that would be the case :(
01:43:05 Really, it's a case of going all the way back to the original intent of the EBX-threading patches and re-doing things from there.
01:44:15 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit []
01:44:36 So call it (to a zero'th approximation) 2-3 weeks of work just to get back to where I left off with the ability to create a new lisp thread but no gc synchronization or any other thread synchronization.
01:44:53 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
01:44:58 And that for one of the maybe six people who would know what they're doing.
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01:45:36 nyef: EBX threading on x86? How awful is the impact on perf? I wonder how hard it would be to let regalloc move the thread-tn move around (including spilling to the stack).
01:46:07 ah, looks like slime got specific workarounds for sbcl/win32 a few months ago, that is probably what conflicts with new-serve-event
01:46:11 Is it an interesting trade-off on !win32?
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01:46:33 Don't know what the perf impact is, but it's probably measurable on linux if you pick a suitably old SBCL to apply the patches to.
01:47:13 On !win32? Well, x86 (non-x86-64) osx might find a use for it.
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01:47:47 And I had it running on Linux, so if you needed to have the FS register for something else, then it'd be available.
01:48:09 (Not that I can come up with a scenario for that other than WINE.)
01:48:41 Or if you had a particular use for EBX, but that's even less likely than a particular use for FS.
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01:49:35 So, it's doable, it ran at one point, but the use-cases pretty much boil down to easy testing to make sure some compiler changes aren't as likely to break win32 threading.
01:49:59 As you guessed, I'm worried about such a global change on an ill-loved platform. If at least some of it was shared across the x86 backend...
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01:50:52 Yeah, but... The best I can do is provide the ability to share it. The motivation is rather beyond me.
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01:52:25 Are we going to have to ask the SLIME people to change their win32 fixes to only apply for (and win32 nil-communication-style)?
01:52:51 nyef: testing to see if that fixes it now...
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01:55:25 yeah, looks like that is the problem
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01:56:12 So, it occurs to me that the one thing that would be simultaneously useful in and of itself, helpful towards getting threading going on win32, and relatively low-impact is setting up a "working" console control handler.
01:57:13 The problem being, of course, that the console input handling ends up doing something sufficiently funky when a C-c occurs that SBCL reads it as an EOF.
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02:00:50 The problem being, of course, that when a C-c occurs the console input handling ends up doing something sufficiently funky that SBCL reads it as an EOF.
02:00:55 Something like that.
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02:02:15 I guess that could be patched around with a simple test in the guts of the read handling.
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02:02:37 hmm, swank.lisp looks like it gets loaded after swank-sbcl.lisp, makes it harder to override the workarounds in swank-sbcl
02:03:17 actually, i guess .swank.lisp is what i was looking for, not swank.lisp
02:04:20 *_3b* tries to figure out where .swank.lisp gets loaded
02:04:59 ok, so apparently after swank.lisp, so still too late
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02:08:38 i guess .swank.lisp could just undo the workaround :p
02:09:50 You can't have the workaround just test swank:*communication-style* at runtime?
02:10:16 hmm, i guess it could do that too
02:10:42 http://github.com/nablaone/slime/commit/5cd9a71d53d9ac1216d60bfd33d7f26a8938b06a#L1R173 is the change in question
02:12:25 ... That code looks suspiciously familiar.
02:14:32 Yeah, so it looks like the issue is that it's doing a second WSAEventSelect() on a socket that already has an associated event handle.
02:16:33 And there's the lovely possibility of it not closing its shiny new event handle, as it's not part of a UWP-cleanup.
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02:19:41 So I would change the win32 version of input-ready-p to check the communication-style, only do the nasty win32 junk if it's NIL, and have a comment to the effect that if the user has overridden the communication style then they are almost certainly using a fixed serve-event.
02:20:17 That should get us status-quo on systems without new-serve-event and status-quo-ante on systems with new-serve-event.
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02:31:51 Right, I'm off to bed. G'night all.
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03:16:55 Does anyone know if UFFI supports callbacks?
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03:42:23 does Slime do autocompletion in just the repl buffer, or can it do it editing buffers as well?
03:42:39 I don't get autocompletion when I am editing code in a file
03:42:53 any buffer, but bindings might be different
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03:43:40 how can I enable it for the file buffers?
03:44:45 looks like it is bound to C-c tab or M-tab here in normal buffers
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03:46:40 C-c C-i and esc tab might be easier to use aliases of those depending on OS and typing preferences
03:46:56 M-tab is Window's chord for switching application; C-c tab is a bit awkward. Is it safe to rebind it as Tab alone, just as in LispWorks?
03:47:43 you might want slime-indent-and-complete-symbol for that (that is what repl uses)
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03:50:51 *_3b* would probably try to add it to the list of things M-/ checks before rebinding tab, but is too lazy...
03:51:56 cheers _3b!
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04:17:10 *fusss* wishes web services would distinguish between characters and octets
04:17:36 "appdata An optional url-encoded string with a maximum length of 100 characters. The Yahoo! login server returns this data to your endpoint URL without evaluating it" -- Yahoo
04:17:48 the dipshits mean octets
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04:46:21 fusss: lack of good documentation practice :(
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06:04:44 hello
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06:40:49 good morning
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06:56:39 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp
06:57:12 good morning
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06:59:18 talk-wessel.pdf is pretty impressive
06:59:28 large-scale semantic web stuff in CL
06:59:28 link
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07:00:32 http://www.racer-systems.com/products/index.phtml
07:00:36 these are the products
07:01:14 http://weitz.de/eclm2009/talk-wessel.pdf
07:02:26 thanks. now I have something to read with coffee in the morning. :) now to bed. nite folks.
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07:04:58 heh, using allegrograph (:
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07:05:54 wow, the GUI is ugly. Is that "CLIM ugly" or just ordinary "CG ugly"?
07:06:26 I believe it's regular CG plus emacs ugliness
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07:07:02 wouldn't hurt to use non-lossily compressed graphics at the right aspect ratio, and with cleartype turned on
07:07:32 "CG use" plus "university project" (i.e., no designer involved): a fatal combination
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07:07:52 well, at least it's easy to get /something/ out the door (:
07:07:59 *antifuchs* giggles
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07:09:46 but then, since this is web-related, I expect most semweb apps to move to browser-based UIs soonish
07:09:58 *antifuchs* cracks fingers
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07:11:27 antifuchs: i'm developing one for the mobile phone right now...
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07:14:14 from what Jans said in his talk at ECLM 200x, their clients are mostly non-semantic-web projects which have been using classic AI/inference stuff for years and are just switching to new technologies. BICWB.
07:14:47 (defun doc (f) `(documentation (quote ,f) 'function)) ; Is there a saner way to do this?
07:14:49 s/WB/BW/
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07:16:35 Makoryu: are you trying to make DOC a shorter version of DOCUMENTATION which defaults to 'function for an argument?
07:16:53 antifuchs: why wouldn't you in the first place?
07:16:59 how about (defun doc (f) (documentation f 'function))?
07:17:20 fusss: This way, I can write (doc mapcar) instead of (doc 'mapcar)
07:17:31 fiveop: for data-entry apps, it might have made more sense to have them on the desktop in the past
07:17:36 Makoryu: you need a macro for that
07:17:47 Whoops, meant to write defmacro
07:17:53 or maybe it's just that the people making them were used to having things run on their local machines
07:18:01 No wonder I confused you guys :p
07:18:50 in that case using QUOTE sometimes and ' sometimes is a bit odd, but otherwise not sure what you would consider 'saner'
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07:20:11 _3b: Yeah, I see I can write ',f
07:20:15 I could imagine, that soon everyone's got a small httpd on his machine as a sort of local application framework
07:20:20 Makoryu: (defmacro doc (f) `(documentation ',f 'function))
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07:20:27 i'd probably also call it something that was a bit more clear it got function documentation, if it isn't just a repl shortcut
07:20:45 _3b: Yep, it's a REPL shortcut.
07:20:52 or add an optional arg that defaults to 'function
07:21:07 That would make it a little more difficult
07:21:24 Hmmm
07:22:09 C-c C-d C-d seems easier though :p
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07:23:01 Makoryu: in the future, if you want to dispatch on a small to medium set of types, it's better to use methods
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07:25:03 good morning
07:25:06 ( (defmethod doc ((x function)) (documentation x 'function))
07:25:19 fusss: Why isn't 'documentation a method already, then?
07:25:23 Wait, never mind that
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07:25:34 sorry, remove the first #\(
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07:26:47 Makoryu: there is also TYPECASE
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07:27:37 (defun doc (x) (documentation x (typecase (function 'function) ..)))
07:28:19 (doc #'typecase) -> NIL
07:28:33 (documentation 'typecase 'function) -> "Documentation"
07:28:36 not all functions have documentation :-)
07:28:54 typecase is a macro, not a function
07:29:17 DOCUMENTATION will just extract doc strings from a form where it has one
07:29:22 Yeah. Why's 'function work?
07:29:46 which definition of DOC are you using? and are you sure it's that one? ;-)
07:30:04 Because macros have a macro-function.
07:30:12 rename your various DOCs so not to confuse them; doc-fun, doc-macro, doc-typecase, doc-gf, etc.
07:31:22 It is an error to use a macro name in (function ...) so your implementation failed there.
07:31:29 Makoryu: i rolled out my own type system which is used by Lisp, SQL, HTML and Javascript code :-)
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07:31:47 pjb: This is SBCL ;)
07:32:10 pjb: Actually, it seems it wraps the macro with a lambda
07:32:27 Makoryu: the type case solution has an elipsis .. which is meant to signify its incompleteness; if you want a _working_ solution you will need to implement a case for every common lisp type
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07:32:38 fusss: Yyyep
07:32:39 #+clisp : (defmacro m (&rest x) `(list ,@x)) (function m) --> *** - FUNCTION: undefined function M
07:33:38 #'defun -> #
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07:34:12 That said IIRC, implementations are allowed to overload CL symbols.
07:34:23 clhs function
07:34:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm
07:34:45 ...Wait, but for actual macros it just prints #
07:35:03 Compare with (macro-function 'm)
07:36:01 Ah, but they're allowed to do that: It is an error to use function on a function name that does not denote a function in the lexical environment in which the function form appears. Specifically, it is an error to use function on a symbol that denotes a macro or special form. An implementation may choose not to signal this error for performance reasons, but implementations are forbidden from defining the failure to signal an error as a
07:36:01 useful behavior.
07:36:01
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07:37:41 pjb: is "defining as useful behaviour" defined anywhere?
07:38:02 ie. does it mean "it can't have useful side-effects", or "you are not allowed ever to say that it works"?
07:38:46 I'd take the later. But basically it means that a conformant program should not use the "useful behavior".
07:39:20 I know, but it's about conforming implementations now, not conforming code
07:39:57 (shadow 'function) (defmacro function (name) `(if (fboundp ',name) (cl:function ,name) (error "~S is not a function" ',name)))
07:40:33 Here, conforming implementation may do as they want, but conforming programs must not call cl:function on a non function name.
07:41:15 Perhaps fdefinition would be better than fboundp in this function macro...
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08:19:06 minion: memo for nikodemus: did random-state.net expire on purpose?
08:19:06 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks.
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08:23:23 hmm, it did not expire...
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08:46:09 Is there a no-operation function that just returns its argument? It should be a function, not a macro.
08:46:15 antifuchs: about that interface, every time that the RacerEditor code window lost focus the cursor got reset to position 1,1 so every time he switched back to the editor to try a new demo he had to scroll down :D
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08:46:21 identity?
08:46:31 fe[nl]ix: oh arghl
08:46:45 it's details like this that hurt
08:46:58 Zhivago: thanks, that's the one
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09:44:29 hello
09:46:22 can anybody point me to beginners tutorial (not just list of commands) about debugging (stepping etc) in slime?
09:47:11 and/or has anybody tried running cusp with eclipse 3.5?
09:47:26 Hm. I usually just read backtraces and examine the data.
09:47:56 Harag: http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov maybe
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09:48:52 I watched the movie and got (break) from it but I keep on feeling that I am missing a whole world of options
09:49:09 well then maybe I need a tutorial about to understand back traces better ?
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09:50:42 Harag: maybe you should think a little bit about what you don't understand and ask questions if appropriate.
09:50:50 unfortunatly I come from a ms world and have been spoilt/corrupted with the way debugging is done in there ide's
09:51:27 Harag: do you know you can expand backtraces in SLIME and examine their arguments?
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