Funkyterrance wrote:If you are caught cheating it's safe to assume that you didn't earn your medals in the first place.

That's probably not true, but I don't have a problem with some kind of punishment here.

My feelings are that if you end up a cheater you aren't deserving of any medals, you're a disgrace. Someone with this mindset can't earn a medal. If you think that medals are just a symbol of winning x number of games on x setting then sure, I agree with you.I think a more appropriate punishment would be to have a big label below your username, sort of like mods, that says in big red letters: CHEATER. That way you could just write them off as bullshitters and scum. I think it's odd how people can sort of wear off a bad rep on here, in the real military it's not like that at all. In rl you are forever marked, as it should be.

Evil Semp wrote:Is stripping of medals going to stop people from creating additional accounts? Will it be a deterrent? My opinion is no it will not be a deterrent. Many multi's are created to get around the 4 game limit. I personally don't concern myself with medals. I have medals and points but I don't play for them. It doesn't matter to me if stripping medals would be an added punishment.

Stripping medals is not going to stop everyone from creating additional accounts, we can agree on that.

Would it be a deterrent? Yes. Not for those creating multis to get around the 4 game limit, but for those that create multis to get away from their score history, or to increase the win rates for a main account or accounts, yes, "no honors" (no medals) would be a deterrent.

It would do something else, as well.

Many clans require a minimum set of medals in candidates to their ranks. Clans may not know the case history of every player, but they'd be able to see someone has no medals without a lot of research. The idea someone else had, "cheater" could work, too. Maybe that's the only medal they get, a big ugly whatever "medal" that brands them as a cheater and makes it very easy for respectable clans to avoid accidentally inviting one of "them" into their ranks.

agentcom wrote:I think we can safely say that CC will not be handing out "cheater" medals. Let's not start up that discussion.

Fine, then let me re-emphasize my response as to whether stripping someone of medals would be a deterrent - yes, not for those doing it to play extra games as a freemie, but for those doing it to make a "main" account look better, it could be.

Additional benefit is to clans:Many clans require a minimum set of medals in candidates to their ranks. Clans may not know the case history of every player, but they'd be able to see someone has no medals without a lot of research - and thus, know to deny that player entry to their ranks.

Funkyterrance wrote:If you are caught cheating it's safe to assume that you didn't earn your medals in the first place.

That's probably not true, but I don't have a problem with some kind of punishment here.

My feelings are that if you end up a cheater you aren't deserving of any medals, you're a disgrace. Someone with this mindset can't earn a medal. If you think that medals are just a symbol of winning x number of games on x setting then sure, I agree with you.I think a more appropriate punishment would be to have a big label below your username, sort of like mods, that says in big red letters: CHEATER. That way you could just write them off as bullshitters and scum. I think it's odd how people can sort of wear off a bad rep on here, in the real military it's not like that at all. In rl you are forever marked, as it should be.

Exactly as it should NOT be. The whole point of punishment is that it settles the debt you have incurred by your transgression, and therefore by definition you are starting back with a zero net balance.

It's just as wrong when this kind of dragging shit out goes on in real life. When someone does his jail time or pays his fine in real life, we say "he's paid his debt to society" but then he suffers all kinds of additional penalties that weren't judicially levied, being barred from employment in various fields and from housing in certain buildings, etc., etc. That's double jeopardy, and it's just plain wrong. If he's been punished that should end the matter forever.

And I've never been in the military, but I've read lots of memoirs written by soldiers, from medieval times to Vietnam, and my impression is the opposite of yours. It seems to me the military is much more sensible about these things. If you commit some kind of infraction like sneezing while on stealth recon or whatever, the sergeant takes you out back after the patrol comes in and either gives you a good beating (in rougher times) or gives you three weeks latrine duty or whatever (in gentler times). Either way, when the punishment is done, the incident is over and nobody will ever mention it again. That's the way it should be. Punishment exactly balances the crime. Plus one and minus one become zero -- nothingness -- once they have met.

If people are unsatisfied with the scale of punishments then they should lobby to increase the severity of the scale, but not try to sneak in extra punishments that aren't part of the original bargain at all.

Funkyterrance wrote:If you are caught cheating it's safe to assume that you didn't earn your medals in the first place.

That's probably not true, but I don't have a problem with some kind of punishment here.

My feelings are that if you end up a cheater you aren't deserving of any medals, you're a disgrace. Someone with this mindset can't earn a medal. If you think that medals are just a symbol of winning x number of games on x setting then sure, I agree with you.I think a more appropriate punishment would be to have a big label below your username, sort of like mods, that says in big red letters: CHEATER. That way you could just write them off as bullshitters and scum. I think it's odd how people can sort of wear off a bad rep on here, in the real military it's not like that at all. In rl you are forever marked, as it should be.

Exactly as it should NOT be. The whole point of punishment is that it settles the debt you have incurred by your transgression, and therefore by definition you are starting back with a zero net balance.

It's just as wrong when this kind of dragging shit out goes on in real life. When someone does his jail time or pays his fine in real life, we say "he's paid his debt to society" but then he suffers all kinds of additional penalties that weren't judicially levied, being barred from employment in various fields and from housing in certain buildings, etc., etc. That's double jeopardy, and it's just plain wrong. If he's been punished that should end the matter forever.

And I've never been in the military, but I've read lots of memoirs written by soldiers, from medieval times to Vietnam, and my impression is the opposite of yours. It seems to me the military is much more sensible about these things. If you commit some kind of infraction like sneezing while on stealth recon or whatever, the sergeant takes you out back after the patrol comes in and either gives you a good beating (in rougher times) or gives you three weeks latrine duty or whatever (in gentler times). Either way, when the punishment is done, the incident is over and nobody will ever mention it again. That's the way it should be. Punishment exactly balances the crime. Plus one and minus one become zero -- nothingness -- once they have met.

If people are unsatisfied with the scale of punishments then they should lobby to increase the severity of the scale, but not try to sneak in extra punishments that aren't part of the original bargain at all.

I'm more in the middle of you two, having been through most of this discussion. If you've earned a medal for something that you've cheated at, you don't deserve the medal. If you're genuinely good enough to have earned it without cheating, it shouldn't be a problem to earn it back once the slate has been wiped.

Dukasaur wrote:And I've never been in the military, but I've read lots of memoirs written by soldiers, from medieval times to Vietnam, and my impression is the opposite of yours. It seems to me the military is much more sensible about these things. If you commit some kind of infraction like sneezing while on stealth recon or whatever, the sergeant takes you out back after the patrol comes in and either gives you a good beating (in rougher times) or gives you three weeks latrine duty or whatever (in gentler times). Either way, when the punishment is done, the incident is over and nobody will ever mention it again.

I'm sorry, sneezing isn't nearly an accurate comparison. Cheating is more akin to something like being a traitor or a coward during battle in the military. In these cases, the infraction is not forgotten after the "punishment" has been enacted. You're indelibly marked.

Dukasaur wrote:And I've never been in the military, but I've read lots of memoirs written by soldiers, from medieval times to Vietnam, and my impression is the opposite of yours. It seems to me the military is much more sensible about these things. If you commit some kind of infraction like sneezing while on stealth recon or whatever, the sergeant takes you out back after the patrol comes in and either gives you a good beating (in rougher times) or gives you three weeks latrine duty or whatever (in gentler times). Either way, when the punishment is done, the incident is over and nobody will ever mention it again.

I'm sorry, sneezing isn't nearly an accurate comparison. Cheating is more akin to something like being a traitor or a coward during battle in the military. In these cases, the infraction is not forgotten after the "punishment" has been enacted. You're indelibly marked.

Being in the situation where I deal with the cheaters, I really feel like weighing in on this.

Who cares. Take away their medals. I know that I stated otherwise way back when, but the more I think the less I actually care about the fact that cheaters have medals or not. And, if it deters even a handful of people from doing it, that lessens the workload of the entire website. So get this done, and let's move forward. Remove the medals from multi cheaters and serial Secret Diplomacy cheaters.

deathcomesrippin wrote:Being in the situation where I deal with the cheaters, I really feel like weighing in on this.

Who cares. Take away their medals. I know that I stated otherwise way back when, but the more I think the less I actually care about the fact that cheaters have medals or not. And, if it deters even a handful of people from doing it, that lessens the workload of the entire website. So get this done, and let's move forward. Remove the medals from multi cheaters and serial Secret Diplomacy cheaters.

If anyone would have a grip on this subject it would be a multi-hunter.

Funkyterrance wrote:I think a more appropriate punishment would be to have a big label below your username, sort of like mods, that says in big red letters: CHEATER. That way you could just write them off as bullshitters and scum. I think it's odd how people can sort of wear off a bad rep on here, in the real military it's not like that at all. In rl you are forever marked, as it should be.

Sadistic bastard, f*ck off. I honestly hope that you don`t have any kind of power over other people`s lives in rl. If you think that crime is beyond redemtion, then deal with it accordingly. This is why we have foe lists, and this is why people are banned from sites. Marking people in any way doesn`t accomplish anything except making one group of people feeling better about themselves on account of another group of people.

Finsfleet wrote:Sadistic bastard, f*ck off. I honestly hope that you don`t have any kind of power over other people`s lives in rl. If you think that crime is beyond redemtion, then deal with it accordingly. This is why we have foe lists, and this is why people are banned from sites. Marking people in any way doesn`t accomplish anything except making one group of people feeling better about themselves on account of another group of people.

I also think that child molesters should have to have their foreheads branded with "CM". If this makes me a sadist, so be it. There are certain things that shouldn't be forgotten, for safety's sake. Besides, we are talking about an online game here; it's not like these people can't just leave and find somewhere else to go. You've got to keep your house clean.

Finsfleet wrote:Sadistic bastard, f*ck off. I honestly hope that you don`t have any kind of power over other people`s lives in rl. If you think that crime is beyond redemtion, then deal with it accordingly. This is why we have foe lists, and this is why people are banned from sites. Marking people in any way doesn`t accomplish anything except making one group of people feeling better about themselves on account of another group of people.

I also think that child molesters should have to have their foreheads branded with "CM". If this makes me a sadist, so be it.

No. It makes you __________ .

And the fact that you would even think about comparing these two situations makes you _________ .

And the rest of your post makes you either _________ or __________ .

I`m calm today so I`m not gonna use inappropriate words, but consider that I insulted you three times here. For explanation, read my previous post again. Well, part of it. The other part I just don`t feel like explaining right now.

Finsfleet wrote:Sadistic bastard, f*ck off. I honestly hope that you don`t have any kind of power over other people`s lives in rl. If you think that crime is beyond redemtion, then deal with it accordingly. This is why we have foe lists, and this is why people are banned from sites. Marking people in any way doesn`t accomplish anything except making one group of people feeling better about themselves on account of another group of people.

I also think that child molesters should have to have their foreheads branded with "CM". If this makes me a sadist, so be it.

No. It makes you __________ .

And the fact that you would even think about comparing these two situations makes you _________ .

And the rest of your post makes you either _________ or __________ .

I`m calm today so I`m not gonna use inappropriate words, but consider that I insulted you three times here. For explanation, read my previous post again. Well, part of it. The other part I just don`t feel like explaining right now.

All of this is kind of a different suggestion to what is proposed.

FunkyT- if you genuinely consider that a worthwhile suggestion, perhaps make a separate thread and it can be discussed there.

Finsfleet wrote:Sadistic bastard, f*ck off. I honestly hope that you don`t have any kind of power over other people`s lives in rl. If you think that crime is beyond redemtion, then deal with it accordingly. This is why we have foe lists, and this is why people are banned from sites. Marking people in any way doesn`t accomplish anything except making one group of people feeling better about themselves on account of another group of people.

I also think that child molesters should have to have their foreheads branded with "CM". If this makes me a sadist, so be it. There are certain things that shouldn't be forgotten, for safety's sake. Besides, we are talking about an online game here; it's not like these people can't just leave and find somewhere else to go. You've got to keep your house clean.

even a child molestor could deserve a second chance, depending on what he did, you can't label people (never better said) and put them in the same bag without even a trial. I just think that we should trust the mods judgment and let them decide according to the situation. noted, warning, forum ban, temporary site ban, point reset, medal stripping and guessed. Medal stripping is already something they can do anyway. You are basically asking to give a life sentence for any given crime on the site (as if there wasn't a scale of importance...), which is slightly manichean.

betiko wrote:even a child molestor could deserve a second chance, depending on what he did, you can't label people (never better said) and put them in the same bag without even a trial. I just think that we should trust the mods judgment and let them decide according to the situation. noted, warning, forum ban, temporary site ban, point reset, medal stripping and guessed. Medal stripping is already something they can do anyway. You are basically asking to give a life sentence for any given crime on the site (as if there wasn't a scale of importance...), which is slightly manichean.

Yeah, a child molestor could deserve a second chance but I don't think they should be babysitting anyone's kids without the parents knowing his/her history. I feel that banning a player would be the equivalent of a life sentence, what I'm suggesting is more like a criminal record, a red flag if you will. I'm sorry to those who have cheated and may find this concept upsetting but you don't know what it's like to not be a cheater and therefore have no frame of reference. You're what we like to call a sociopath.As far as being manichean, that's not exactly accurate either since I don't necessarily believe that a cheater is always a "bad person" but in an online gaming setting, it's just about as close as you can get.

I'd have to say that it should be proved that the medals were earned as a result of cheating. I'm sorry that I didn't read the whole thing, symmetry, and maybe I would if I had more time, but if it could be shown that medals were earned as a direct result of cheating, fine.

But I'd disagree with saying that all multis should be stripped of their medals (which seems to be what some people in this thread are calling for.)

People create multis for various reasons. If, say, someone created five multis so they could play all their multis on random games to win random medals, then obviously, yeah, strip 'em of those medals. Or if someone creates a multi, enters a doubs tournament with that multi, and wins the tournament, strip that person of the tournament medal.

But if someone's gained X number of medals by playing other people, and they've created multi(s) to, I dunno, play other games, then I don't think that person should be stripped of their medals. I'm in favor of the punishment fitting the crime. If someone creates a multi, ban that account and strip 'em of premium. Losing a very real $25 seems to me like a much harsher and more appropriate punishment than taking away medals.

Are we including farmers in the "cheaters" category (farming seems to be cheating to me). I'd say any medals earned while farming should be stripped as well - medals are a reward for achieving certain milestones, and if those milestones are achieved unfairly, remove those medals.

Sadly, cheats will always exist as long as the benefit outweighs the risk. The argument to strip them just of what they earnt is good, but means a workload on the site staff then to work out what was earnt by cheating.

I know its boring, but Im a believer in simplicity, its easier to do and easy to understand;

1. Your remaining 12 months of premium will be forfeit2. Any medals/point may be removed

In reality to save working crap out, you just remove medals/points for the last month (or 3, or whatever you think is appropriate).

macbone wrote:I'd have to say that it should be proved that the medals were earned as a result of cheating. I'm sorry that I didn't read the whole thing, symmetry, and maybe I would if I had more time, but if it could be shown that medals were earned as a direct result of cheating, fine.

But I'd disagree with saying that all multis should be stripped of their medals (which seems to be what some people in this thread are calling for.)

People create multis for various reasons. If, say, someone created five multis so they could play all their multis on random games to win random medals, then obviously, yeah, strip 'em of those medals. Or if someone creates a multi, enters a doubs tournament with that multi, and wins the tournament, strip that person of the tournament medal.

But if someone's gained X number of medals by playing other people, and they've created multi(s) to, I dunno, play other games, then I don't think that person should be stripped of their medals. I'm in favor of the punishment fitting the crime. If someone creates a multi, ban that account and strip 'em of premium. Losing a very real $25 seems to me like a much harsher and more appropriate punishment than taking away medals.

Are we including farmers in the "cheaters" category (farming seems to be cheating to me). I'd say any medals earned while farming should be stripped as well - medals are a reward for achieving certain milestones, and if those milestones are achieved unfairly, remove those medals.

I think that's partially a fair point, although you seem to spend most of your post talking yourself out of it. But yes- the obligation is obviously that cheating be proven before any punishment is applied, whether that be stripping medals or the many forms already in place.

Now, of course, a player caught cheating faces an escalating set of punishments far more serious than what I'm suggesting, as you point out. I think that if a person has been found to have been cheating on the site, they should have the rewards that the site gives to honest players removed. If they are capable players, they can earn those medals back fairly, and in a way that doesn't involve conning other people.

Just like the ranking and ratings system, medals are a way of showing that a player is trustworthy. A flawed way, obviously, but one that deserves a degree of respect.

betiko wrote:even a child molestor could deserve a second chance, depending on what he did, you can't label people (never better said) and put them in the same bag without even a trial. I just think that we should trust the mods judgment and let them decide according to the situation. noted, warning, forum ban, temporary site ban, point reset, medal stripping and guessed. Medal stripping is already something they can do anyway. You are basically asking to give a life sentence for any given crime on the site (as if there wasn't a scale of importance...), which is slightly manichean.

Yeah, a child molestor could deserve a second chance but I don't think they should be babysitting anyone's kids without the parents knowing his/her history. I feel that banning a player would be the equivalent of a life sentence, what I'm suggesting is more like a criminal record, a red flag if you will. I'm sorry to those who have cheated and may find this concept upsetting but you don't know what it's like to not be a cheater and therefore have no frame of reference. You're what we like to call a sociopath.As far as being manichean, that's not exactly accurate either since I don't necessarily believe that a cheater is always a "bad person" but in an online gaming setting, it's just about as close as you can get.

What I mean for example, to continue with the metaphore, is that you can't judge the same way a 21 year old who has had a consented relationship with a 15 years old and an old priest who has used his psychological power on others to molest dozens of little boys and get away with it. I'm telling this because I once saw an investigation about this in the US. Basically people accused of sex crimes, sometimes not even proved, are on a record that anyone can consult on internet after getting out of prison. They even have a GPS tracker that showwhere they are at any time from an internet page. No one wants to employ them, give them housing, people harrass them on the phone, a lot become homeless ect. They are not been given any chance after accomplishing their punishment, and sometimes for "minor" things such as going out with an underaged being young themselves, their life is ruined and there isn't even a real victim as the relationship was under consentment.There is a scale to everything. Concerning the "criminal record", just go in C&A, type in the username and you can find any file on that player. It's already quite transparent. Like I've said in this thread, someone getting caught twice cheating should just be banned from the site anyway.

Who are you adressing to about being cheats by the way here? people who don't have such extremist point of views such as the one you are exposing? And yes, you are being manichean as for you there is no such things as shades of grey. You basically want to judge the same way someone who is guilty of let's say secret diplomacy once and someone who created several accounts to play several players at the same time on a 3-8 player game. Just show me the link of a C&A report where you think the mods decision was unfair and you believe a change needs to be made in the scale of punishments (but it seems like there shouldn't be any such thing as a scale for you...)

But yes, someone who has earned a medal through cheating should get it removed just the way macbone said. Other medals that have nothing to do with his "crime" are kind of off topic... If he gets caught a second time he gets site banned anyways.