The Book of Revelation

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This thread will be committed to studying the book of Revelation. I am going to give my input, but I am going to keep an open view. I would appreciate if everyone else would do the same.

I am going to start with the seven letters written by John to the churches in Asia Minor. What are the significance of these letters? Do they represent seven disctinct periods in church history or were they written to seven churches with no underlying meaning other than to exhort and instruct the churches? My view is that they were letters written to seven churches with no underlying meaning. However, we can expect the same exhortations and intructions to be applicable to churches today who find themselves in similar situations. What do you all think?

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You are absolutely right on. Everyone that I have ever heard try to make them fit into "Church History" had to stretch things mighty thin to make their position stand.
Churches today can be found that fit every one of the categories of the 7 churches of Revelation.

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I think we all agree on the seven letters not being representative of seven periods of the church. Those who do affirm this position can only speculate. I do not see the importance of such a view, but I suppose those who do hold to it could argue that there is no importance in not believing it. I conclude that this should be an in-house debate among Christians. It certainly should not be a cause for division unless one tends to insert radical ideas.

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Originally posted by Pete Richert: I have never seen anything in the text that hints that it is for seven periods in Church history, though that is the standard Dispensational answer (or so I thought). Any Dispy's on the subject?

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Pete, people who say they believe this usually, but not always, are arminian and KJVO. That is not an attack, just an observation.

Hey, dispensationalism is in my blood. This idea is a stretch at best and sensationalism at worst. God had John write to seven churches that actually exist.

It is a stronger argument to say that those 7 kinds of churches exist in every age. With that, I don't think anyone would quarrel.

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Since we all seem to agree on the seven letters, I will now proceed to examine certain time references in the book of Revelation. I am sure that most of us will agree, but I feel like it is worth our time. In 1:1, John wrote that the things about which he was writing must "shortly come to pass." In verse 3, he wrote "the time is at hand." Let's examine some of the uses of the word "shortly" and how it is used in the Bible.

"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily..." (Luke 18:7, 8)

God does bear long with His elect, but when the time appointed has come, God will avenge them speedily. The judgments of God on the wicked are sometimes described as "suddenly" (Psalms 6:10), "short" (Romans 9:28), and "sudden" (I Thessalonians 5:3). The main theme of the book of Revelation is the judgment of God on the wicked. Therefore, "shortly" should be interpreted by the Bible itself. The fact is that the Bible uses this term to refer judgment, but not necessarily within a particular time frame (e.g. Luke 18:7, 8)

In 3:11, Jesus said, "Behold, I come quickly." The book of Hebrews 10:37 says, "For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." In Habakkuk 2:3, the prophet wrote, "...though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry." This sounds like a contradcition. First he said that it could tarry, then that it would not tarry. The same principle could apply for the book of Revelation. Though the impending judgment has tarried for 2,000 years, when the time comes, it will come "shortly," "suddenly," and "like a thief." It will be that quick!

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Peter 3:8)

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I think attitudes like that are the cause for the ignorance and deception in the churches today. I believe that is a very lazy and pathetic excuse. God said in the Old Testament, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."

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And what does one gain from studying eschatology, given that "no one knows the hour"?

Seems to me that it does more to feed those wackos with delusions of grandeur who are hoping to eventually participate in some magnificent supernatural apocalyptic battle for good vs. evil. Those kinds of "heroic-minded Christians" would rather follow Joshua to victory than follow Christ to the cross. I don't think they're any closer to Jesus's intent for us than those disciples who asked Jesus to give them a high seat in the Kingdom or asked to call down fire from heaven on the Samaritans.

The gospels are sufficient to enlighten us on Jesus' plan for our lives. Eschatology is a distraction and a waste of time and resources.

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Pete, people who say they believe this usually, but not always, are arminian and KJVO. That is not an attack, just an observation.

Hey, dispensationalism is in my blood. This idea is a stretch at best and sensationalism at worst. God had John write to seven churches that actually exist.

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Preach, you have greatly confused me. Are you saying that people who usually believe this are KJVO and Arminian or that people who don't believe it.

I'm guessing you mean people who do believe it since I seem to remember a few people in the Translation forum arueing the kjv 1611 was better since it was produced in a better "church age" then this one, the final one.

Anyway, my father-in-law is a stauch Dispensational preacher who believes in the church age theology (or at least I think). He is not a strict calvinist though he believes "God saves people" or "Only God can bring someone to salvation" and he is not KJV only though he prefers the Received Text (uses the NKJV).

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I'm partial preterist and have found nothing wrong with what Primitive Baptist has written... But the Book Of Revelation is not cut and dried and not up to one interpretation but many... Historically I believe that all that happened occured... Symbolism are definately pointed out and I believe they were what they were historically... Or are if you want to you can apply them spiritually down through out time... Love the study of Eschatology been studying it all my life and am living in the kingdom now... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

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Originally posted by BWSmith: And what does one gain from studying eschatology, given that "no one knows the hour"?

Seems to me that it does more to feed those wackos with delusions of grandeur who are hoping to eventually participate in some magnificent supernatural apocalyptic battle for good vs. evil. Those kinds of "heroic-minded Christians" would rather follow Joshua to victory than follow Christ to the cross. I don't think they're any closer to Jesus's intent for us than those disciples who asked Jesus to give them a high seat in the Kingdom or asked to call down fire from heaven on the Samaritans.

The gospels are sufficient to enlighten us on Jesus' plan for our lives. Eschatology is a distraction and a waste of time and resources.

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I agree that no one can know nor should set the exact time of our Lord’s return, but it sounds like you are encouraging believers to be ignorant of prophecy altogether for that reason. While you may believe studying and believing Bible prophecy makes one a fanatic, that belief is certainly contrary to the word of God. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 we are instructed by the "word of the Lord" to not be ignorant about Christ's second coming, and to even comfort one another with these words. Certainly many cases from scripture can be made about the importance of knowing and believing prophecy before Christ's first coming. The people of Berea were considered more noble than those of Thessalonica because they searched the scriptures daily to see if things were so. The Bible says they received Christ with all readiness of mind because of this. I am not trying to be harsh, but I believe your reasoning is fatally flawed when taken in view of scripture. As Jesus said seven times in Revelation: “he that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”. Eschatology is far from being “a distraction and a waste of time and resources” or there “to feed those wackos with delusions of grandeur”. Much to the contrary, the study of the last things is something that edifies the believer and brings him comfort.

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I think it is futile to try to identify every symbol with a particular person or event. I believe the book of Revelation conveys ideas more so than specific events. For example, the four horsemen. Folks try to identify them a particlar men, whereas I simply see them as symbolic of what the book of Revelation says they represent. However, you have the great whore (the Roman Catholic "church"). I believe her utter destruction is foretold. Some things recurrent ideas, some specific things.

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Primitive Baptist... It is interesting that you claim that symbolism can mean anything which unfortunately all Gods children have been doing since the first century... Putting in their private interpretations in every age... In fact eschatology madness has been rising and falling at will in every generation since then.

You see Revelation as the great whore but I've yet to hear any preachers in my church in the last 35 years give a sermon on it. I know that Jerusalem was the first to play the harlot according to Ezekiel 16. I've heard many preach on that and the various false religions we are warned to withdraw from... You know what I'm talking about if you've been a PB for any length of time. You and I can talk in private if you email me both being PBs.

What you have to understand in my opinion is the part of history we are talking about was like no other before or will be again. The trials and tribulation of the early churches blood was the seed and the reason that churches exist today. Without the sacrifices of the early churches in the book of Revelation we would not be in our churches let alone on this board... When I say early churches I am implying first century... As the RCC didn't take a foothold until the forth if I'm not mistaken.

This is not to say that those things mentioned in the seven churches of Asia have validity in every age of churches since the first century. The fact remains that John letters to the seven churches of Asia addressed dire circumstances and situations at that time... And put a face on the symbolisms he was talking about or they would have been no benefit to the earlier church or the hearers either... His warning... He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit sayeth unto the churches.

Another point to consider is that this was a time of change... Jesus came not to destroy the law and the prophets but to fulfill... And the law worship... sacrifices and temple rituals were being replaced by the grace dispensation of time... Which we are still in today!... Just a few thoughts to consider ... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

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I never said that Revelation was the great whore, I said that the Roman Catholic Church was. I also never said that symbols can mean anything, I said that some of the symbols in Revelation do not have reference to particular events, but recurrent ideas, things that could happen over and over again during this age.

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“The fact that certain things are grouped together under a certain emblem that is common to them all, whereas other things are grouped together under another emblem, common to them, but very different from the first, is proof that the grouping is TOPICAL and not CHRONOLOGICAL” (Philip Mauro).

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