Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?

Though it should be noted that rejecting the Old Testament is Marcionism. All Marcionites should be forced to eat five pounds of feces per day since they spew this constantly, it is only appropriate that they be forced to consume it as well.

Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?

Though it should be noted that rejecting the Old Testament is Marcionism. All Marcionites should be forced to eat five pounds of feces per day since they spew this constantly, it is only appropriate that they be forced to consume it as well.

Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

I never understood why this was such a hang up for some people.

It is for me. God is love. God is compassion. God is forgiveness. I am a sinner. I therefore must rely on the love of God, the compassion of God, the forgiveness of God. That last thing I need on my mind is to contemplate an unforgiving God, an unmerciful God, a God of spite and seemingly arbitrary violence. Further, a lot of people Bible thump verse of the Old Testament to support or condone their own feelings of hatred and violence as if such kind of behavior was Godly. It is definitely a hang up for me, and when I promote reading the Bible to people who are not Bible readers, I usually tell them not even to bother with the Old Testament until they finish the Gospel of John first to keep it in context.

stay blessed,habte selassie

Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?

Though it should be noted that rejecting the Old Testament is Marcionism. All Marcionites should be forced to eat five pounds of feces per day since they spew this constantly, it is only appropriate that they be forced to consume it as well.

Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

I never understood why this was such a hang up for some people.

It is for me. God is love. God is compassion. God is forgiveness. I am a sinner. I therefore must rely on the love of God, the compassion of God, the forgiveness of God. That last thing I need on my mind is to contemplate an unforgiving God, an unmerciful God, a God of spite and seemingly arbitrary violence. Further, a lot of people Bible thump verse of the Old Testament to support or condone their own feelings of hatred and violence as if such kind of behavior was Godly. It is definitely a hang up for me, and when I promote reading the Bible to people who are not Bible readers, I usually tell them not even to bother with the Old Testament until they finish the Gospel of John first to keep it in context.

Why must you all try so hard to defend a religion that teaches violence and hate? Even going so far as to put down our Orthodox faith to defend that teaching which is to be treated as "anathema", "accursed", according to St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Comparing something to Russia and the Old Testament is considered defending it?

Though it should be noted that rejecting the Old Testament is Marcionism. All Marcionites should be forced to eat five pounds of feces per day since they spew this constantly, it is only appropriate that they be forced to consume it as well.

Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

I never understood why this was such a hang up for some people.

It is for me. God is love. God is compassion. God is forgiveness. I am a sinner. I therefore must rely on the love of God, the compassion of God, the forgiveness of God. That last thing I need on my mind is to contemplate an unforgiving God, an unmerciful God, a God of spite and seemingly arbitrary violence. Further, a lot of people Bible thump verse of the Old Testament to support or condone their own feelings of hatred and violence as if such kind of behavior was Godly. It is definitely a hang up for me, and when I promote reading the Bible to people who are not Bible readers, I usually tell them not even to bother with the Old Testament until they finish the Gospel of John first to keep it in context.

stay blessed,habte selassie

You bring up good points. For what it's worth, the VAST majority of my Bible reading is from the NT. I have read the Gospel of John twice and am currently reading the Commentaries on it. It is important to keep in mind that our God is a loving God. You cannot read the Gospel of John without seeing God's love for mankind shown the Only Begotten Son.

Keeping that in mind, I have no pretensions about my sinful mind being able to understand the fullness that is God. I have no desire to force God into my rationale. So when God wipes out a people I have no qualms about it. He did it for whatever reason He saw fit and it's none of my business why He did it. Obviously, He saw a good reason to.

Rejecting the God of the Old Testament is what people do when they refuse to admit God killed a massive number of innocent Egyptian boys, and ordered the genocide of the people living in the land of Canaan.

That was a matter of vengeance. Elohim took revenge from the Egyptians who had killed the male infants of the Israelites and from the Amalekites, who had attacked the Israelites while they were vulnerable in the wilderness.

[/quote]

When the bishop of Limassol in Cyprus, who is considered a future saint, was asked if the U.S. was to blame for what happened to Cyprus, he said 'no'. The only people that were to blame were the Cypriots, because of their sins. This doesn't mean that God ordered it, only that God allowed it. In other words if the people had turned to God and prayed, the Holy Spirit would have softened the hearts of the Turks and the Americans involved like Kissinger, and it would not have occurred.

Shouldn't we be using this same criteria for the killings in the Bible? If the OT is stating it differently than the way something is worded in Christianity, it's only because the people in that time and place would not have understood it differently.

Oh so the rest of you are saying that you just rationalize the goofy parts of the Old Testament away? Just like how many modern Muslims rationalize the gory parts of early Islamic history with a loving God?

Oh so the rest of you are saying that you just rationalize the goofy parts of the Old Testament away? Just like how many modern Muslims rationalize the gory parts of early Islamic history with a loving God?

Before going further, is it safe to assume that you and I worship the same God? (This is not a pointed or accusatory question. You don't have which faith you are written down and I don't want to assume.)

If you and I worship the same God, then we can both agree that He is good? That He is worthy of worship?

I believe that God is good. Therefore, anything He did in the OT, does not bother me one bit. God is good. He did what He felt needed to be done. End-o-story.

Now, do you believe that the god of the Moslems is somehow comparable to Ours? If you think Allah = God the Father, well then we have a hangup in terminology. I do not believe whatever it is that they worship is the true God. I do not believe that you can worship God the Father without also worshiping the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I cannot rationalize away what the Moslems do because I have no desire to rationalize or accept the deeds they performed at the behest of whatever demon it is they worship.

Amen, vamrat. POM, or it would be if people could deal with that reality. Instead they just see violence over here and violence over there and say we can't make any distinction. Some people here argue like atheists (or Islamic apologists on the internet, who often make this point), not Christians.

ONLY our God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity - is actually God. God is right to issue any command or do any action that He does, or to allow whatever He allows (depending on how you look at it). Of course it involves some brutality in an era of brutal people (e.g., much of the Old Testament, covering the wars among the ancient Hebrews and others), as sometimes when people are too stupid to straighten up otherwise, bad things happen. That's not an excuse for God, but a condemnation of man. What any of that has to do with Muhammad and his partisans, coming HUNDREDS of years after the Christ who taught the ignorant people who previously warred with one another to put away their swords and come to understand the law as it was meant to be from the beginning.

If you have a problem with God in the OT, how can you not have a problem with the NT, wherein God was incarnate in Christ Jesus? Are they two separate Gods? You are bi-theists or henotheists? That's not Christianity.

I cannot rationalize away what the Moslems do because I have no desire to rationalize or accept the deeds they performed at the behest of whatever demon it is they worship.

And therein lies the double standard. The OT God and the Quranic God are rather similar. You choose to rationalize away the most hideous deeds of the former away yet apply the most rigorous standards to the latter. Most Muslims do exactly the same but in reverse.

Oh so the rest of you are saying that you just rationalize the goofy parts of the Old Testament away? Just like how many modern Muslims rationalize the gory parts of early Islamic history with a loving God?

Yes, that is what Christ came for, to explain and elaborate what parts of the Old Testament were confusing from our limited perspective. How does the Apostle Paul sum it up?

Quote

Repay no one evil for evil. Have a regard for good things in the sight of all men. Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath, for it is written, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord.' Therefore: 'If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him drink; for in doing so you will heap coals of fire on his head.' Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

Romans 12:17-21

it is very easy for we Christians, when feeling righteous (or even worse, self-righteous) to pretend to understand the Old Testament God of fiery and immediate vengeance. We seemingly say to ourselves (even if we don't admit it), "Kudos for God, they must have deserved it, glad it wasn't mean." Even the Apostles, had this holier than thou attitude from time to time, as expressed by the brothers James and John when they asked Jesus:

Quote

And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”[e]

55 But He turned and rebuked them,[f] and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them

Luke 9:54-56

The Old Testament is meant to remind us of the wages of sin on account of our OWN guilt, but not to be overly concerned with the sins of others. Again, the Old Testament God makes ME uncomfortable because of MY OWN SINS, and therefore I constantly need to pray to Jesus Christ that "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on me, a sinner." The Old Testament is then again not an excuse for us to judge others, as James and John attempted, but rather to learn to tangibly appreciate the mercy and love of God as express by Jesus Christ!

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 04:44:12 PM by HabteSelassie »

Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

I cannot rationalize away what the Moslems do because I have no desire to rationalize or accept the deeds they performed at the behest of whatever demon it is they worship.

And therein lies the double standard. The OT God and the Quranic God are rather similar. You choose to rationalize away the most hideous deeds of the former away yet apply the most rigorous standards to the latter. Most Muslims do exactly the same but in reverse.

Am I free to make assumptions on my questions, then? Based on what you state, is it safe to say that you are not a Christian? I do not mean to accuse, it's just that you still have not said that you are and you did say that you view God the Father similar to the whoever it is that the Moslems worship. Based on this, I do not think our disagreement is one of a double standard but on differences in terminology.

I cannot rationalize away what the Moslems do because I have no desire to rationalize or accept the deeds they performed at the behest of whatever demon it is they worship.

And therein lies the double standard. The OT God and the Quranic God are rather similar. You choose to rationalize away the most hideous deeds of the former away yet apply the most rigorous standards to the latter. Most Muslims do exactly the same but in reverse.

Am I free to make assumptions on my questions, then? Based on what you state, is it safe to say that you are not a Christian? I do not mean to accuse, it's just that you still have not said that you are and you did say that you view God the Father similar to the whoever it is that the Moslems worship. Based on this, I do not think our disagreement is one of a double standard but on differences in terminology.

My personal beliefs are entirely irrelevant.

You are left with a few choices as far as I can see:

The OT God was a petty and savage tyrant. The coming of Christ cancelled all of that.

The OT is allegorical more or less.

The violence was culturally / historically isolated.

The first doesn't bode well for claims of immutability of the Divine. The second is exactly what modern Muslims do to dismiss the unpleasant realities surrounding. The third makes all ethical claims relative.

I cannot rationalize away what the Moslems do because I have no desire to rationalize or accept the deeds they performed at the behest of whatever demon it is they worship.

And therein lies the double standard. The OT God and the Quranic God are rather similar. You choose to rationalize away the most hideous deeds of the former away yet apply the most rigorous standards to the latter. Most Muslims do exactly the same but in reverse.

Am I free to make assumptions on my questions, then? Based on what you state, is it safe to say that you are not a Christian? I do not mean to accuse, it's just that you still have not said that you are and you did say that you view God the Father similar to the whoever it is that the Moslems worship. Based on this, I do not think our disagreement is one of a double standard but on differences in terminology.

My personal beliefs are entirely irrelevant.

You are left with a few choices as far as I can see:

The OT God was a petty and savage tyrant. The coming of Christ cancelled all of that.

The OT is allegorical more or less.

The violence was culturally / historically isolated.

The first doesn't bode well for claims of immutability of the Divine. The second is exactly what modern Muslims do to dismiss the unpleasant realities surrounding. The third makes all ethical claims relative.

Your personal beliefs are very relevant, if not the crux of the debate between us. If you are of a different religion, or agnostic or atheist, then we will obviously have different views on this issue. I have tried to explain my position based on my religion. If we are of different religions then there is no more use debating a theological issue.

Please note that I have given my rationalization. God is God and He can do what He wants without me second guessing him. Do you believe that God the Father is infallible or do you believe that He made a mistake?

One last point, I don't care how the Moslems rationalize their bloody religion. I care not one iota. They are deluded. They do not worship the true God. If I ask a kindergartener to size a steam trap and he fails to do so correctly, it's really just a waste of time to go through his calculations because he probably didn't even know where to start at in the first place.

One last point, I don't care how the Moslems rationalize their bloody religion. I care not one iota. They are deluded. They do not worship the true God. If I ask a kindergartener to size a steam trap and he fails to do so correctly, it's really just a waste of time to go through his calculations because he probably didn't even know where to start at in the first place.

So a Muslim is wrong because Muslims are wrong not because of any logical reason? The whole point on this and other threads is that Islam is inherently violent based upon the Quran. Yet you must hold Christianity and Judaism to the same standard.

Why? Nothing in Muhammad's religion is in any way relevant to the Christian standard, which was set by CHRIST and the apostles and saints long before Muhammad or Islam ever existed. Nothing in Islam is a useful standard of anything, except perhaps blasphemy and success of said blasphemy.

I do not believe whatever it is that they worship is the true God. I do not believe that you can worship God the Father without also worshiping the Son and the Holy Spirit.

But they seem to acknowledge the fact that Isa was born to Mary, by a Spirit. So, they technically accept there is The Trinity. The problem with Islam and its followers is, they have a mission to fight Christians. Fighting against Christians is their purpose of life, their source of existence. It's just like cancer, which fights everything healthy, once its done with the healthy part it fights and exterminates itself. I am sure once the Muslims have exterminated all Christians on the planet, they will claim everything what Christians used to have and announce themselves as Christians. They already have started taking away from Christians so many things, but they say everything is Muslim. Can you notice the 'pride' part?

Of course, it's impossible that we are sharing The Same God with them. They are they, we are we, they are Satan's chosen ones, we're Christ's chosen ones.

A Nazi-Muslim-Catholic-Croat alliance to exterminate Orthodox Serbs, Nazi-Chechnya alliance to fight Orthodox Russians, even the German Kaiser Wilhelm II collaborated with the Turks to exterminate Armenian and Greek Orthodox Christians. Catholic Italians were allies to Muslim Ethiopians and Somalis in their quest to destroy Ethiopian Orthodox Christians. Even today, the West is helping Muslims to exterminate Christians in Libya, Egypt, Morocco, Iraq, Indonesia, Sudan, Syria, Lebanon, Malaysia, Nigeria, Ivory Coast. How/why on earth is that possible?

Warning! Not for faint-hearted

“Serbs suffered enormously. As Serbs were being forcibly converted to Catholicism, some 450 Serbian Orthodox churches were demolished and their religious icons defiled. Orthodox clergymen, from ordinary priests to the Metropolitan, were gruesomely tortured and their families shipped to concentration camps where they were subjected to every inhumanity.”

““This is now the Ustasha and Independent State of Croatia. It must be cleansed of all Serbs and Jews. There is no room for any of them here. Not a stone upon a stone will remain of what once belonged to them.” He later assured, “The Jews will be liquidated within a very short time.” To this end, more than 20 Ustasha concentration camps were established for the killing process, manned by combined Catholic and Muslim forces.“

“The legacy of Islamic and Arab hate that spurred the Farhud burned broad enough to help Hitler get ever closer to his goal of exterminating all Jews. But the Third Reich fell. And those in the Arab-Nazi movement went on to form the post-war geopolitical Middle East that prevails in the current century.”

One last point, I don't care how the Moslems rationalize their bloody religion. I care not one iota. They are deluded. They do not worship the true God. If I ask a kindergartener to size a steam trap and he fails to do so correctly, it's really just a waste of time to go through his calculations because he probably didn't even know where to start at in the first place.

So a Muslim is wrong because Muslims are wrong not because of any logical reason? The whole point on this and other threads is that Islam is inherently violent based upon the Quran. Yet you must hold Christianity and Judaism to the same standard.

No. Moslems are wrong because they are murdering. They have no authority to do this. When the Hebrews in the OT did what they did they did so under the authority of God. See, this is why I asked what religion you were because it makes no sense to argue with you on this point if you do not worship God. If you do not worship God then you do not recognize this authority and we have to agree to disagree.

So, if you want me to give you a logical argument:

IF you worship the true God (on an Orthodox forum I am allowed to consider the Trinity to be the true God) THEN you accept His authority. IF you accept the authority of the true God THEN this becomes and EITHER/OR situation. You can ONLY worship Him and can ONLY accept His ultimate authority. IF you worship the true God THEN all other gods are false. They have no authority.

THUS - If the true God orders you to exterminate a population, as we believe He did in the OT, THEN you 1- do it, 2- accept that He has authority to do so - because He is the creator and this is His prerogative.

IF the Moslems decide to do the same thing they do it outside of the authority of God. Their actions cannot be considered moral based on our understanding of morality. They have murdered. Murder = Naughty.

Similar example - A policeman can pull me over for speeding. He is operating under the authority of the State. I cannot pull him over for speeding as I lack this authority. Simple equation, really.

The problem with my argument is that both you and I must accept the authority of God for this to be valid. Note that I am ONLY making this argument on the assumption that some of the people reading it may be of the same religion as me. With dzheremi, for instance, I believe this argument holds weight, since he apparently believes in the true God. You have consistently skirted the issue. This is inexplicable because on an Orthodox forum you would think that there would be no negative consequences for you to admit to being part of the Orthodox faith. As it is, since you do not admit to worshiping the true God, I could assume that you do not. In that case, my argument is invalid since we do not agree on the initial terminology. In that case, I concede the point.

Oh so the rest of you are saying that you just rationalize the goofy parts of the Old Testament away? Just like how many modern Muslims rationalize the gory parts of early Islamic history with a loving God?

You know many Christians believe that the God of the OT is not the same God as in the NT, but it is not so. The complete vision of a God consisting of Pure Love is something people could not have comprehended at the time of the OT. It was only when God felt the time was ripe; that He brought into the world His Word in the Person of Jesus Christ and gave us a full revelation of Himself.

To understand this more fully, think of the different terminology you would use when explaining something to a six year old in comparison to what you would say to a twenty one year old? Because we now have a full vision of God, we know that God is incapable of anything other than a love for mankind... but He cannot prevent that which man brings upon himself through his own sins.

To the spiritually immature audience of the OT, these things could only be understood as God having ordered a destruction and slaughter. The people at that time would not have understood it in any other way.