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Firstly may I say after plucking up the courage to post on this forum I find it inspiring to read some of the stories on here and how brave people are. Not only that but the time a lot of you guys give to users on this forum is to be highly praised !!

I am sure this story is typical but I was wondering if anyone could give me realistic chances of HIV infection after a scare seven weeks ago. I went to the World Cup in the summer with friends in Stuttgart. After a very drunken night I ended up in a brothel in the red light district of the city, unfortunately my so called friends had left me.

I remember being in a room with a sex worker putting a condom on me and I remember oral sex, I also remember a very brief session of penetrative vaginal sex then she left the room, (lets say five to ten minutes - tops - ALL PROTECTED)

This is where things become a little bit hazy....

I removed the condom and discarded it and she came back with a bottle of champagne we drank it together and there was a lot of fumbling masturbation, further brief oral sex, (ALL UNPROTECTCED). For the life of me I cannot remember further vaginal sex, if there was again we are talking a matter of minutes, (UNPROTECTED) but so much of this part of the night is a blur !! I did not ejaculate and must have came to my senses soon after as I remember hurriedly getting dressed and literally running out of the brothel.

The lady was South African but spoke fluent GERMAN so presume she had resided there for some time. I selfishly went back the next day but apparently she only worked weekends, I spoke to one of her co-workers who said I had nothing to worry about and she was married with three children, (not sure of the relevance of this) and clean, but the fact she told me they always use condoms and I know I received unprotected oral sex leads me to believe they often say this to clients regardless.

My doctor tells me that my chances of HIV infection where less than 1% to start even if there was brief vaginal sex and the lady was HIV+ and that with the testing I had received I should move on with my life - he also added 1) at six weeks modern tests are more than 99% accurate and 2) He had never seen a patient testing postive after six weeks of the same exposure since they introduced this test several years ago, coupled with the four week test and the STD screening this should be considered conclusive, and finally 3) I could completely stop worrying about the oral sex regardless of any other events.

In terms of symptoms I have had very few, except what I think must be anxiety driven, i.e. diarrhea / grumbling stomach / sweats / chest pain / sore throat and many sleepless nights, however they all seem to come and go depending on my state of mind.

I have not discussed with my wife as I fear it could destroy our relationship, but today she started with back pain and slight fever - I think I may have passed something on.

Do you think I am being ridiculous?Is my Doctor a complete optimist?, I find it hard to believe that there would only ever be a 1% chance of transmission when you hear of the epidemic in Africa and so many new cases in industrialised countries. I live in the UK and they stipulate three month window period, so why does my doc tell me at six weeks everything is fine?

I am close to tears most days worrying about going for a further test, i.e. 10 / 12 weeks and the fact I could have infected my wife.

First up let me say that HIV is not an easy virus to transmit. Particularly from female to male. There is absolutely no risk to you from the unprotected oral sex you had. HIV is not transmitted that way.

Since you can't recall if you had unprotected vaginal sex (though it seems unlikely given that the sex worker put a condom on you at the start -- why would she change half way through?) you're right to have a test. Your 47 day result is an excellent indicator of a negative results at the 12-13 week mark.

Sexually active people should have a full STD screen at least twice a year. A full screen includes an HIV antibody test. You should know that there are other STD's, such as chlamydia and gonorrhoea which are far more prevalent and contagious than HIV.

I would encourage you to read our glorious Welcome Thread to learn more about how HIV is and is not transmitted.

Thanks for the lightning quick response, I did read all the welcome notes and the main reason I continued to post a thread was I could not understand how my doctor has come to the assumptions he has?

If a test at four weeks and six weeks is considered conclusive, why the 12 week window period? I do not understand where he has come to the 99% figure, also I have read so many stories of people contracting HIV through one single sexual act I also find it hard to acknowledge 1% per vaginal sexual act being a realistic figure - I have no problem in being told the truth about my situation, but felt that due to it being a private clinic they just wanted my money and that was that....

I have a test schduled with a GUM clinic in Manchester, (England) at the 10 week point to try and ease some of my anxiety, but I think this could be a tough three weeks....

If a test at four weeks and six weeks is considered conclusive, why the 12 week window period? I do not understand where he has come to the 99% figure, also I have read so many stories of people contracting HIV through one single sexual act I also find it hard to acknowledge 1% per vaginal sexual act being a realistic figure - I have no problem in being told the truth about my situation, but felt that due to it being a private clinic they just wanted my money and that was that....

Five,

Test results at 4-6 weeks are not considered conclusive. Some rare cases take up to 12-13 weeks to test positive. We work with this window to period so that everyone is included. HIV/AIDS is so serious 99% is just not good enough.

In fact don't worry about numbers like 99% or the like. With reference to individual cases, such as yours they're meaningless. I fully expect (as does your doctor) that you will test negative at the 12 week mark.

Indeed rather than fretting about percentages and window periods, you might want to think about the sorts of behaviours that lead you to situations like this one. Drinking and casual sex are not a good mix, as you have learned.

Yes. Even though I am confident that you will test negative at 12 weeks, I can't be 100% sure and neither can you. HIV/AIDS is nothing to guess about.

2) Do you think I should skip the 10 week test and just re-scheulde at 12 week, i.e. does 10 weeks decrease my chances even further?

Again yes. The window period in the UK is 12 weeks and that's when you should test. A 10 week negative is all but conclusive, but we need to stick with the scientifically established window period.

3) I read today that in America some experts belive 6 months to be the only real conclusive negative result, I really do not think I could go on with the stress and anxiety I am feeling for 6 months.

Such experts are incorrect. You don't have to wait 6 months. Even the extraordinarily conservative American Centres for Disease Control (CDC) state the window period is 13 weeks. In the UK, Australia and other nations it's 12 weeks. Since you're testing in the UK go with the window period there.Anyway I am off to try and catch some zzzzz's its 12.20am in England and tomorrow I go on holiday for two weeks to France, although I fear it may not be the most enjoyable time of my life.

You need to understand that symptoms mean bugger all when it comes to diagnosing HIV. The symptoms of ARS are really non-specific. I mean just about anything can cause a fever, right?

What is important when we discuss HIV transmission is risk behaviours and anti-body testing. If you've engaged in a behaviour which has been shown to transmit HIV, then you should test. Such behaviours are:

I think your doctor sounds like he is very much clued up on hiv testing. With the type of tests you have had done, you are more likely to play for England yourself in the next World Cup and score a hat trick in every single game you play than you are to go on to test positive after this incident.

I've never seen someone test negative at six weeks and go on to test positive either, just like your doctor.

However, until the official window period here in the UK changes, you would be wise to go to your local GUM clinic and test one more time at twelve weeks - just so there are no lingering doubts in your mind. Don't bother going private, the local GUM will test for free and confidentially too.

While you're here, there are a few more things I want to make sure you are aware of. You need to protect yourself against hiv no matter who you are with or where you are. Hiv is on the rise in the heterosexual community in the UK - I should know, I'm one of the statistics. I live on the Isle of Man and never thought I needed to worry about hiv and I was dead wrong.

You need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions until such time as you are in a securely monogamous relationship where you have both tested for ALL STIs together. To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with a sexually transmitted infection.

Have a look through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use condoms with confidence.

Anyone who is sexually active should be having a full sexual health care check-up, including but not limited to hiv testing, at least once a year and more often if unprotected intercourse occurs.

If you aren't already having regular, routine check-ups, now is the time to start. As long as you make sure condoms are being used for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return with negative results. Don't forget to always get checked for all the other sexually transmitted infections as well, because they are MUCH easier to transmit than hiv.

Use condoms and avoid hiv infection - no matter who you are with. It really is that simple!

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Firstly thanks for your response, really appreciated. The service you guys provide here is better than in most clinics - the amount of conflicting information out there from counsellors / GP's is truly extraordinary. It seems that the real experts are the people who have contracted HIV, so maybe there is a career path out there for you?

You state you have never seen someone test positive after six weeks, do you work in a clinic, or is it just something you have not heard of?

On the contrary do you know of people who have tested positive in six weeks? I asked my Dr. but he said he could not disclose this information, which I did find strange as he was happy to tell me the opposite...

I mean that in the five+ years I've been a member of these forums, I've never seen someone in this section of the forum test negative at six weeks and go on to test positive after. And yes, we have had people through here who did have a risk who tested positive at or before six weeks. The people who write in to this forum and test positive are in the minority. Hiv is a fragile, difficult to transmit virus, but that is no reason to not protect yourself because difficult does not mean impossible.

Too many people don't test after unprotected intercoure and I'd say the majority of people discover their hiv status only after they've been positive for a while. This is one of the reasons why routine screening is so important. Not only can the person who does test positive get the medical attention they need, but it will also cut down on onward transmissions. Most people who test positive ensure their virus stops with them.

Keep using those condoms, no matter if you're with a sex worker or the girl next door, and you'll be just fine.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Thanks Ann, sorry to ask such direct questions, but feel it may benefit other users to know this information as well as myself.

Sorry also wanted to say I have read all the information you have directed me towards and 100% agree. Problem I am finding is a lot of the people who post here cannot see past their pending results - most are likely to put themselves back in this situation in several months time, or maybe even sooner!

Instead they should be concentrating on what they can do in the future to avoid this happening again. For me I have stopped drinking heavily and cut down on the amount I smoke - I know that when I drink heavily I have a tendancy to act in a different manner and often experience memory loss of the night before - I have asked myself if I ever want to go through this worry again and the answer is simple - NO.

I am hoping my negative test at 12 weeks will be the icing on the cake, sorry for the pun but I always believe a positive can come out of a negative situation.

It's good to hear that you've learned so much from this incident. The best thanks you can give to us for the service we provide here is to educate your mates on the importance of condom use and hiv prevention. Make sure your family members know - especially any teens or young adults. Far too many heterosexuals think they don't need to worry about hiv and it just isn't true.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I based my answer on your experience, plus the timing and types of test used. Also, the vast majority of people who have actually been infected will seroconvert and test positive by six weeks, with the average time to seroconversion being only 22 days. Your last test was at nearly seven weeks and I do not expect the results to change.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Just returned from holidays and did not have the greatest time first few days were OK, but then I developed stiff neck / sore throat / white coated tongue and strange lines on the inside of my mouth, not ulcers, more like raised skin.

I have convinced myself that these must be ARS symptoms, despite (1) it being eight weeks since exposure and (2) numerous people on this forum stating symptoms are not an indicator of HIV.

I have not cancelled my 10 week test yet, do you think it is a waste of time as I think it might be the only way to ease my anxiety?

Before I went on holiday I felt at ease with myself and was planning on discussing what happened with my wife, I am now back in the state of running to the toilet every time I have eaten, (which in itself is proving difficult due to worry) and not sleeping.

Thanks for the reply RapidRod, do you agree with the sentiments expressed by Ann earlier in this thread that my risk is very low and with the tests I have taken to date my anxiety levels are unwarranted?

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Sorry guys to question your advice, anxiety is such a crazy state of mind, all logic seems to go out of the window...as an accountant by trade you would think I would be able to accept the laws of probability?

I feel like I have already abused the service you provide here, I will post results of my ten week test for other users to reference, until then promise no other anxiety driven questions, (well until 12 week test anyway).

Apologies again, Five.

P.S. Just wondering is there anything I could do to help with the great work you guys provide, I have found it truly inspirational !!

Giving money is good, but making sure your friends and loved ones are clued up on hiv facts is priceless. For me, the best thank you anyone can give us is to carry on our work in your own social circles and families. Too many teens (and adults!) aren't being taught how to protect themselves against hiv - abstinence only works if they're never tempted. Condoms work regardless.

Knowledge is power and knowing how to protect yourself against hiv infection makes for powerful, healthy people. Spread the word.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

The information in that article (I am familiar with it) is several years out of date. Current ELISA tests are considered reliable, even concerning subtypes like O and N which have only been found in a handful of people globally.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Actually, ANY generation of test is considered current and definitive at 13 weeks. The generations of tests are NOT on a sliding scale of reliability. Such a thing would be highly unethical. At this point, the tests are simply being tweaked to slowly but surely lower that testing window. But financial considerations dictate that first gen testing remains prominent, especially in underdeveloped places.

And yes, testing picks up these subtypes.

But holy cow, given that we have identified less than two hundred people who carry subtype O among the millions and millions of confirmed HIV cases, any single human's chances of getting infected wityh that subtype, even if they live in Cameroon and consider themselves an unproteced sex party favor, is so vanishingly small as to boggle the mind.

seriously. Intellectually, at this point you are aware you are grasping at straws. Communicating that to your emotional center, in my opinion, should be your next challenge.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

I know you have a lot of experience with UK tests, can you confirm that they test for subtype O a local aids helpline in UK did not think they do due to a rare chance of anyone having contact with this subtype?

This is more than worrying in my situation which was with a woman from Africa, (Cameroon) as you know from my previous posts...I am starting to doubt the validaity of any of the tests I have had.

If you tested at freedomhealth you would have had the COBAS COMBI assay conducted at The Doctors Laboratory in London.

Sean at freedomhealth sent me this, from the assays datasheet, in response to a question about the assays sensitivity;

1) Does the data sheet explicitly state 99.8% sensitivity at 28 days ?

A) It reads "Of 1509 samples from HIV infected patients in different stages of the disease and infected with HIV-group M, O and HIV-2, 1509 were found to be repeatedly reactive. The sensitivity ...in this study was 100%. The lower confidence limit was 99.8%

You can bet that the tests used in the UK pick up any and every strain of hiv going - including the ones from Africa. We have a huge amount of African immigrants here in the UK.

Here's something else to consider - the obscure strains are more difficult to transmit. That's why they remain obscure.

Trust your test. And STOP looking up studies on the internet unless you make certain they are UP TO DATE and not something old and discredited - and that you fully understand how to read and evaluate scientific studies.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I have just returned from my 10 week test and get my results @ 4.00pm, (UK time today) I will update my thread later this evening for reference.

It was my councilor who suggested this test due to me being out of the country for a few weeks, so this is what she called my penultimate test and only reason she has agreed to do it was due to anxiety - she has said if it comes back positvie today it will be a first, we shall wait and see...

I got my latest test result today, again negative for HIV I and HIV II plus Antigen P24 not detected - this test was at nine weeks five days, (I know you are going to tell me to re-test at 12 weeks) but just wanted to know if this would decrease my chances even further than playing for England in the next World Cup?

At the GUM clinic my counsellor told me I could move on with my life and the 12 week test was only needed so that I could have unprotected sex with my wife with a 0% chance of passing on an infection if I had one; must admit this statement has kind of worried me...

The GUM counselor was practicing the fine art of CYA (cover your ass) with perhaps a dash of scare-tactic thrown in to ensure your return at twelve weeks. The official window period here in the UK is twelve weeks.

As you were hazy about all the details and you believe there was a chance of unprotected intercourse, then you should test for closure. Am I expecting the result to change? No. Not at all. I'm sure you can appreciate that we also stick by official window periods.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Ann is, not that she needs like likes of ME to say it, spot-on, as always.

The fine art of CYA is something that always make me sorta cross my eyes and bite my tongue. usually in that order.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Thanks guys, never looked at it that way, at the end of the day she has a job to do !!

Ann would you consider it prudent to still use the World Cup comment you made earlier, (in light of your last post) to be honest its been kind of a message I have been telling myself everytime I feel anxious, i.e. I tell myself I have little to no chance of playing for England - so my HIV status is similar...

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I have started to develop a line of small pimples, (not sure if they are blisters) around the bottom of the head of my penis - they pretty much go all the way around, local GUM clinic suspect herpes, but I am awaiting results and they could not be conclusive either way at this point.

If they come back positive does this increase my chances of HIV infection - I know prior to this experience I did not have hepres and have read that ant STD largely increases the transmission risk !

Leading on from the above does this make any difference to my nine week test?

Herpes would only increase your risk if you had an outbreak at a time when you had unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse. A herpes diagnosis will NOT change a thing about an hiv test taken at any time.

Please try to keep in mind that you only remember having protected intercourse during your encounter. The idea that you also had unprotected is pure speculation on your part.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

All but the very smallest number of those who are going to seroconvert will do so within 4-6 weeks after an exposure to the HIV virus. The average time to seroconversion is 22 days.

So with that 9 week negative in hand, like Ann I too expect you to continue to test negative, the possibility of herpes notwithstanding. And as Ann has reminded you, you're not even certain you had unprotected intercourse!

Your head has been working overtime about this incident, mixing the issue of it having been an African sex worker and now a herpes possibility to scare you some more. Despite that your test result points with no little certainty towards your continuing to test negative. Guilt is a whole other matter and can be a potent factor in feeding fears and anxiety. You're a dog like the rest of us and you went straying. You can't undo that. So see it clearly, take a breath and let it go.

I expect you will get another negative test result shortly and then hopefully you will be wise enough to get on with your life.

Herpes can be a puzzle. The thing is, a person can harbour the herpes virus for years and never have an outbreak. Then, along comes some stress or a bout of 'flu and whammo, you suddenly get an outbreak. (This is why, when herpes appears on the lips, they are known as cold sores. A cold or 'flu can bring on an outbreak.)

You'll probably never know when or how you got herpes. Although it can be possible, as long as your wife has not gone down on you while you had an active outbreak, then you most likely have not passed it on to her.

And just so you know, herpes is VERY contagious. If you or anyone in your household has an outbreak, it's best to not share towels during this time. This goes for oral herpes or genital herpes, and you can also spread it around to different areas of your own body. Keep it clean and dry and don't touch. If you use acyclovir cream on the blisters, make sure you wash your hands afterwards.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Although herpes is very contagious, it is totally possible to keep it to yourself. I've had it since I was nineteen (25 years) and I've never transmitted it to anyone. Follow basic hygiene rules and you'll be fine.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Is there a chance that this line of pimples / blisters could not be associated to herpes? To be honest they have been there for several days and do not appear to be going any bigger or bursting, very confusing.

You know I can't diagnose you! I will say this though - if they feel kinda tingly/itchy, it's probably herpes. They can take a while to break open sometimes without necessarily getting bigger and when they do, they usually hurt like hell, especially if touched or rubbed by fabric. But saying all that, it could be anything. If you get to a doc asap when they do break open, the area can be swabbed and a diagnosis reached.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Herpes usually looks much more like a blister than a pimple. The fluid inside is clear and the outer edge of the blister is usually red. If what you are seeing looks more like a pimple/whitehead, chances are it's not herpes at all but blocked pores. Check back with your doc.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts