It amazes me how people can complain about the private meeting between Trump and Putin and then go on to claim they know what happened between the two men. I see it only as a get acquainted meeting where nothing was intended to be accomplished except two powerful leaders getting to know one another. They are in unique positions, both in respect to their own countries and the rest of the world. Everyone else is subordinate, so who could possibly supervise? They don't work out the details, there are secretaries and underlings for that. But these two men have to be able to trust and understand each other before anything else can happen. My belief is that it's better to have friends than enemies, but even if we must remain adversaries it is important to know the other person you're dealing with. You can tell more about a person by meeting and talking for a couple hours than you can from a month's worth of briefs and reports from people who haven't met either one.

Sure that is sound logic. Or it would be sound logic if Trump didnt have such deep and intricate financial ties to the Russians on top of the election scandal and his questionable behavior regarding it.

For the good of the nation Trump should have recognized the appearance and not met with Putin alone. The fact that he did speaks volumes.

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Big Jim 4,932

Big Jim
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Sure that is sound logic. Or it would be sound logic if Trump didnt have such deep and intricate financial ties to the Russians on top of the election scandal and his questionable behavior regarding it.

For the good of the nation Trump should have recognized the appearance and not met with Putin alone. The fact that he did speaks volumes.

Even if your assessment is correct, it changes nothing about the dynamics of personal relationships. This was an introductory meeting. Nothing more. Are better relationships begun with a chaperone or without? When it's time to get down to brass tacks we can fill the room with chaperones of all sorts, secretaries, bureaucrats, reporters, and what-have-you. But without a basic understanding between Trump and Putin nothing will ever happen and we will maintain the status quo for another 50 years.

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RoofGardener 14,857

RoofGardener
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Sure that is sound logic. Or it would be sound logic if Trump didnt have such deep and intricate financial ties to the Russians on top of the election scandal and his questionable behavior regarding it.

For the good of the nation Trump should have recognized the appearance and not met with Putin alone. The fact that he did speaks volumes.

Yes it does. It says he doesn't follow political protocol

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Farmer77 28,105

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“Of all forms of tyranny, the least attractive and the most vulgar is the tyranny of mere wealth, the tyranny of a plutocracy,” - T. R.

Even if your assessment is correct, it changes nothing about the dynamics of personal relationships. This was an introductory meeting. Nothing more.

Hang on. If my assessment is correct then it is extremely dangerous for our nation to assume that the man who is potentially compromised by a foreign power is telling the truth about what happened in that meeting.

1 minute ago, Big Jim said:

Are better relationships begun with a chaperone or without? When it's time to get down to brass tacks we can fill the room with chaperones of all sorts, secretaries, bureaucrats, reporters, and what-have-you. B

Again though you're taking the word of the individual who may be compromised that no "brass tacks" were in play at that meeting.

This at best was a failing of leadership by Trump. He should have recognized the questionable nature of what he was doing and the appearance it would cause.

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Farmer77 28,105

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“Of all forms of tyranny, the least attractive and the most vulgar is the tyranny of mere wealth, the tyranny of a plutocracy,” - T. R.

That is only true if you assume that professional politicians are good for the wellbeing of America. The voters didn't think so

Again with people defending Trump without context

Yes in a vacuum your statement would make sense. However considering how absolutely divided America is doing something which would clearly cause more division shows a complete disregard for the overall wellbeing of America.

Yes in a vacuum your statement would make sense. However considering how absolutely divided America is doing something which would clearly cause more division shows a complete disregard for the overall wellbeing of America.

I challenge your underlying assumption

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Farmer77 28,105

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“Of all forms of tyranny, the least attractive and the most vulgar is the tyranny of mere wealth, the tyranny of a plutocracy,” - T. R.

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Big Jim 4,932

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The only fact about the meeting is that we have no information about it. All the rest is perception. Reading these posts shows that nothing has changed our original perceptions of the man. Those that support Trump see nothing wrong and those that have always disliked him see nothing but evil coming from it. Many have cited the ongoing "Russian Investigation" as reason for Trump needing to be supervised. I tend to grant him the presumption of innocence that we are all entitled to. The title of this thread suggests that the majority of Americans share the perception that we are moving in a positive direction.

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Big Jim 4,932

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Hang on. If my assessment is correct then it is extremely dangerous for our nation to assume that the man who is potentially compromised by a foreign power is telling the truth about what happened in that meeting.

Again though you're taking the word of the individual who may be compromised that no "brass tacks" were in play at that meeting.

This at best was a failing of leadership by Trump. He should have recognized the questionable nature of what he was doing and the appearance it would cause.

So, you're saying that he should have the same perception about himself that you and his other detractors have? The only failure of leadership would be if he doubted himself as much as you do. To your credit you preface all of your accusations and assumptions with words like "potentially", "may be", "probably" and the like. That comes close to giving him the benefit of the doubt but not quite granting him the presumption of innocence that the Constitution guarantees all of us.

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bee 13,495

bee
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For the good of the nation Trump should have recognized the appearance and not met with Putin alone. The fact that he did speaks volumes.

oh please..... you think the President should be chaperoned when meeting with another world leader...
like he was naughty schoolboy - he's your PRESIDENT for heavens sake... representing the United States..
you are all Russia this Russia that, but you would see your President be humiliated in front of Putin ...

'''''''oh I'm sorry Vladimir... I can't meet with you alone because my enemies and the Evil Fake Media will
say nasty things and use it against me''''''' ...

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Farmer77 28,105

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“Of all forms of tyranny, the least attractive and the most vulgar is the tyranny of mere wealth, the tyranny of a plutocracy,” - T. R.

So, you're saying that he should have the same perception about himself that you and his other detractors have?

No im saying that he is President of all Americans not just his faithful. As such he should be concerned about how his actions will be seen by everyone not just his faithful.

If he is innocent all he is doing by ignoring the reality of the situation he is in is making it worse for himself and his supporters by creating negative headlines and stealing what should be positive airtime for him. I think that statement really covers the entire Russia fiasco quite well. At every turn he has made it appear worse for himself.

1 minute ago, Big Jim said:

That comes close to giving him the benefit of the doubt but not quite granting him the presumption of innocence that the Constitution guarantees all of us.

IDK man I'm of two minds on that. I actually started this thing wholly giving him the benefit of the doubt and in fact not believing that it was possible that he/they conspired with the Russians. Trump and company's actions combined with the evidence uncovered thus far has me now rather wholly convinced that Trump is a Russian asset of some sort. Theres simply too much there there.

My other thought on it is when it comes to national security how far should we go with the benefit of the doubt thing? I honestly dont know the answer to that but I feel like the folks who should be answering that question for us (congress) are too interested in covering their own asses.

oh please..... you think the President should be chaperoned when meeting with another world leader...
like he was naughty schoolboy - he's your PRESIDENT for heavens sake..

Yep I sure as hell do. The man has intricate financial ties to Russian oligarchs and refuses to let us see his tax returns. That in and of itself is enough but as we all know there is much more concerning info out there than just that.

6 minutes ago, bee said:

'''''''oh I'm sorry Vladimir... I can't meet with you alone because my enemies and the Evil Fake Media will
say nasty things and use it against me''''''' ...

Or he could be show some fortitude and say something more along the lines of:

"considering the havoc you have wreaked by interfering in our elections on my behalf I think its best if we bring along some aides and transcribers"

See its pretty simple. Hey that would have actually resembled manning up too rather than looking like a Kremlin employee.

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bee 13,495

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If he is innocent all he is doing by ignoring the reality of the situation he is in is making it worse for himself and his supporters by creating negative headlines and stealing what should be positive airtime for him. I think that statement really covers the entire Russia fiasco quite well. At every turn he has made it appear worse for himself.

By now... his 'supporters' and voters know full well that NOTHING he does will stop negative headlines...
Trump obviously knows that too....

Only total capitulation to the Political Globalist Agenda will garner him a whiff of positive airtime... but even then I would
fully expect it to be twisted into negative spin and declared evidence of weakness and lack of character... and the
failure to fulfill his promises...

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Farmer77 28,105

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“Of all forms of tyranny, the least attractive and the most vulgar is the tyranny of mere wealth, the tyranny of a plutocracy,” - T. R.

By now... his 'supporters' and voters know full well that NOTHING he does will stop negative headlines...
Trump obviously knows that too....

Dont fool yourself into thinking he didnt make those headlines himself. The man's behavior and choices are creating them. Hell if he could keep from doing something stupid for a day or two the good things he has done would actually get some airtime.

2 minutes ago, bee said:

Only total capitulation to the Political Globalist Agenda will garner him a whiff of positive airtime... but even then I would
fully expect it to be twisted into negative spin and declared evidence of weakness and lack of character... and the
failure to fulfill his promises...

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bee 13,495

bee
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Dont fool yourself into thinking he didnt make those headlines himself. The man's behavior and choices are creating them. Hell if he could keep from doing something stupid for a day or two the good things he has done would actually get some airtime.

yeah and pigs might fly

the games up.... all but hard core detractors have lost confidence in the MSM ...

and no matter how much they (MSM) double down on the negative spin and lies... they are not believed
by the majority of General Public... IMO

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Farmer77 28,105

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“Of all forms of tyranny, the least attractive and the most vulgar is the tyranny of mere wealth, the tyranny of a plutocracy,” - T. R.

you try and 'emasculate' your President (and therefore America) on a daily basis and then have the nerve to talk about him 'manning up' -

Trump emasculates himself on a daily basis in a variety of ways. I simply point them out.

As for manning up , again hell yes im talking about him manning up. Mr. tell it like it is, Mr. wake up at 5am to insult 15 different people on twitter , Mr. talk tough with everyone else in the world looked like Putin's pool boy in Helsinki.

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“Of all forms of tyranny, the least attractive and the most vulgar is the tyranny of mere wealth, the tyranny of a plutocracy,” - T. R.

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Big Jim 4,932

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No im saying that he is President of all Americans not just his faithful. As such he should be concerned about how his actions will be seen by everyone not just his faithful.

If he is innocent all he is doing by ignoring the reality of the situation he is in is making it worse for himself and his supporters by creating negative headlines and stealing what should be positive airtime for him. I think that statement really covers the entire Russia fiasco quite well. At every turn he has made it appear worse for himself.

IDK man I'm of two minds on that. I actually started this thing wholly giving him the benefit of the doubt and in fact not believing that it was possible that he/they conspired with the Russians. Trump and company's actions combined with the evidence uncovered thus far has me now rather wholly convinced that Trump is a Russian asset of some sort. Theres simply too much there there.

My other thought on it is when it comes to national security how far should we go with the benefit of the doubt thing? I honestly dont know the answer to that but I feel like the folks who should be answering that question for us (congress) are too interested in covering their own asses.

Honestly, it sounds like you're saying "I'd give him the benefit of the doubt if only he wasn't so darn guilty". That's really not the same thing.