(01-03-2014 07:54 PM)Chas Wrote: It was the very first example. That is not credible.

The US submits a report of China's human rights violations. You (rightly so) criticize China for looking for any excuse to ignore the report and not address the issues. Then when the roles are reversed and China submits a report detailing many egregious US human rights violation, you do precisely what you just criticized China for doing.

If only people could see their own faults as clearly as they see those of others.

Hmm. Let me summarize:

China: Here is a list of bad things the USA has done.Chas: Some of those items are specious.frankksj: So you're saying America hasn't done any bad things?

China: Here is a list of bad things the USA has done.Chas: Some of those items are specious.frankksj: So you're saying America hasn't done any bad things?

Making up shit as always. I have the luxury of not paraphrasing and post below Chas's actual, verbatim quote. Chas did NOT say 'here is a list of specious items'. Rather, Chas identified one specious item and used that as an excuse to dismiss the entire report. Chas did not acknowledge even ONE point from China's report as being valid, so your entire strawman is invalid.

I agree with Chas it's absurd that China characterizes a school shooting as a human rights violation. But, there ARE a lot of legitimate points in that report and the situation will never improve if the US cannot accept valid criticism.

(01-03-2014 08:27 AM)Chas Wrote: The report lost all credibility right there. This is not an example of a country's 'human rights violation'.
One can only conclude that the authors do not understand the meaning of 'human rights violation'.

I think the past several years the US has become a major violator of human rights the world over. The last two presidents have done things that, if done by some other country, we would be seeking, at minimum, to have them condemned and sanctioned by the Useless Nations.

That said, China pointing it out is like al Queda complaining about violence on tv or in video games. There is a "really?" quality to it that you can't help but roll your eyes at.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost

(03-03-2014 02:11 PM)frankksj Wrote: I have the luxury of not paraphrasing and post below Chas's actual, verbatim quote. Chas did NOT say 'here is a list of specious items'. Rather, Chas identified one specious item and used that as an excuse to dismiss the entire report. Chas did not acknowledge even ONE point from China's report as being valid, so your entire strawman is invalid.

Chas made no comment as to most of the entries. He pointed out that at least one was baseless - presumably the first such he came across - and used that to make the point that the list as a whole is thus cast as a dubious political exercise rather than anything worth serious consideration.

(03-03-2014 02:11 PM)frankksj Wrote: I agree with Chas it's absurd that China characterizes a school shooting as a human rights violation.

Indeed.

But let's examine where you went off the rails -

(02-03-2014 10:33 AM)frankksj Wrote: The US submits a report of China's human rights violations. You (rightly so) criticize China for looking for any excuse to ignore the report and not address the issues.

That there is something not contained within Chas's words. So there's that.

(02-03-2014 10:33 AM)frankksj Wrote: Then when the roles are reversed and China submits a report detailing many egregious US human rights violation, you do precisely what you just criticized China for doing.

And that right there is something else not contained within Chas's words. So there's that too.

(02-03-2014 10:33 AM)frankksj Wrote: If only people could see their own faults as clearly as they see those of others.

And that right there is where you psychoanalyze a straw man, under the apparent misconception that that is a meaningful exercise.

So when you then say something like this:

(03-03-2014 02:11 PM)frankksj Wrote: But, there ARE a lot of legitimate points in that report and the situation will never improve if the US cannot accept valid criticism.

It is first extremely unclear what you mean by "the US"; it is then of note that you chose to use the word valid criticism. If that is meant to imply the report in question, that is entirely inconsistent, because you, yourself, literally just acknowledged that it was flawed.

You paraphrased this and claimed Chas actually said: "Some of those items are specious".

That some means that you claimed Chas acknowledged other items were NOT specious. That's totally wrong. Chas did no such thing. He ended his post after pointing out ONE invalid item and saying the whole report lost credibility.

Sure, it's ridiculous for a country like China to condemn others for human rights violations. BUT, it's also pretty ridiculous for a country like the US to do so. The US is the only developed country I'm aware of that no longer has habbeus corpus--something that has been the foundation of a modern judicial system for a thousand years. Only the US locks people up without access to a lawyer or judicial process. Only the US summarily executes its own citizens without even accusing them of any crimes, based solely on a secret kill order from its leader. The US has been hunting down a legitimate whistleblower whose whose only "crime" was exposing rampant illegal corruption, and has even threatened journalists for reporting these. The US is also the only country sending drones into other countries to attack their people. The US has an ex-stoner President that locks up and kills people whose only crime is following in his footsteps and making the same bad decisions he did.

China has a bad human rights record when it comes to the way it treats its own people. However, the US has a horrific human rights record when it comes to dealing with other countries. For decades the US has been overthrowing peaceful democracies to put in power tyrannical dictators that let the US plunder the country.

You paraphrased this and claimed Chas actually said: "Some of those items are specious".

That some means that you claimed Chas acknowledged other items were NOT specious. That's totally wrong. Chas did no such thing. He ended his post after pointing out ONE invalid item and saying the whole report lost credibility.

Sure, it's ridiculous for a country like China to condemn others for human rights violations. BUT, it's also pretty ridiculous for a country like the US to do so. The US is the only developed country I'm aware of that no longer has habbeus corpus--something that has been the foundation of a modern judicial system for a thousand years. Only the US locks people up without access to a lawyer or judicial process. Only the US summarily executes its own citizens without even accusing them of any crimes, based solely on a secret kill order from its leader. The US has been hunting down a legitimate whistleblower whose whose only "crime" was exposing rampant illegal corruption, and has even threatened journalists for reporting these. The US is also the only country sending drones into other countries to attack their people. The US has an ex-stoner President that locks up and kills people whose only crime is following in his footsteps and making the same bad decisions he did.

China has a bad human rights record when it comes to the way it treats its own people. However, the US has a horrific human rights record when it comes to dealing with other countries. For decades the US has been overthrowing peaceful democracies to put in power tyrannical dictators that let the US plunder the country.

Wow, I agree with about every criticism of the US you set forth.

How scary is that?

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost

(03-03-2014 02:48 PM)frankksj Wrote: Do you have Alzheimer? I just included the citation in the last post.

Chas wrote: "The report lost all credibility right there".

You paraphrased this and claimed Chas actually said: "Some of those items are specious".

That some means that you claimed Chas acknowledged other items were NOT specious. That's totally wrong. Chas did no such thing. He ended his post after pointing out ONE invalid item and saying the whole report lost credibility.

Sure, it's ridiculous for a country like China to condemn others for human rights violations. BUT, it's also pretty ridiculous for a country like the US to do so. The US is the only developed country I'm aware of that no longer has habbeus corpus--something that has been the foundation of a modern judicial system for a thousand years. Only the US locks people up without access to a lawyer or judicial process. Only the US summarily executes its own citizens without even accusing them of any crimes, based solely on a secret kill order from its leader. The US has been hunting down a legitimate whistleblower whose whose only "crime" was exposing rampant illegal corruption, and has even threatened journalists for reporting these. The US is also the only country sending drones into other countries to attack their people. The US has an ex-stoner President that locks up and kills people whose only crime is following in his footsteps and making the same bad decisions he did.

China has a bad human rights record when it comes to the way it treats its own people. However, the US has a horrific human rights record when it comes to dealing with other countries. For decades the US has been overthrowing peaceful democracies to put in power tyrannical dictators that let the US plunder the country.

Wow, I agree with about every criticism of the US you set forth.

How scary is that?

You should rethink your entire political outlook if you agree with frank. If you agree with him without hesitation you should be terrified.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote: America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

It is not a political question. Is the United States guilty of human rights violations? You can believe they are no matter what side of the spectrum you fall politically. Frank is right - we have over thrown fringes to put in puppets favorable to the US, we have supported dictators like the Saudis and Mubarak, or president has a secret list where he decides who he can kill without due process of law and has actually killed someone, and we are killing civilians all over the middle east in a way that would be considered both an act of war and a crime against humanity if some country without our wealth and military did it. Are you going to deny those things or claim they are ok because you don't like the person who pointed them out?

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost

(03-03-2014 03:24 PM)BnW Wrote: It is not a political question. Is the United States guilty of human rights violations? You can believe they are no matter what side of the spectrum you fall politically. Frank is right - we have over thrown fringes to put in puppets favorable to the US, we have supported dictators like the Saudis and Mubarak, or president has a secret list where he decides who he can kill without due process of law and has actually killed someone, and we are killing civilians all over the middle east in a way that would be considered both an act of war and a crime against humanity if some country without our wealth and military did it. Are you going to deny those things or claim they are ok because you don't like the person who pointed them out?

Should have added a smiley emoticon. That was just a joke, mostly.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote: America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense