'Jock' Fenton wrote:

A great debate which showed clearly that those who participated in it feel that the decision is unjust compared with other exceptions to the rules that have been granted.

My thank you to Don Touhig has been sent.

_________________PER ARDUA AD ASTRA/HONI-SOIT-QUI-MAL-Y-PENSE

Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:00 pm

GLOman

Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 668
Location: Northamptonshire

Rt Hon Don Touhig MP (Islwyn)

I have sent my thank you to Don Touhig in return for the continuous support and wonderful presentation he gave on behalf of myself (corporately all PJMers) and of course, as a I am sure we all will in spirit, of those who did not return from those periods of conflict, and comrades who can no longer speak for themselves.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:15 pm

GLOman

Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 668
Location: Northamptonshire

THE DEBATE

Its not over 'til the fat lady sings! However, personally, I had more than a feeling that the Minister, Dr Kim Howells was on our side. I believe that after a short time in the debate he appeared to be less than happy with his briefing by the civil servants in FCO and as good as said so. He certainly seemed to believe in his final summing up, that their position regarding double meddaling and the 5 year rule was total nonsense, himself pointing out the anomolies of the implementation of this 'long standing' 5 year rule and double medalling citing the Arctic Emblem and the 50th Anniversary of the Battle for Malta Medal; expressing that he, himself, could not understand the logic of the application of these rule to permit the acceptance of the PJM simply to re-apply these same rules to deny permission to formally wear; THIS FROM THEIR BOSS!

I believe that it was also established that there is a political imput into matters of Decorations, Honours and Medals, despite the stance taken by the HD Committee as being only answerable to Her Majesty The Queen and I believe that he repeated this himself and asserted that the matter would unltimately be decided upon by Politicians in the House of Commons by the Government and not by the HD Committee!

I do hope that Dr Howells is not removed from his post by pressure by the Civil Servants on the Senior Ministers, and perhaps the PM himself who appear to remain 'prisoners'of those civil servants. On the other hand, subsequent to its broadcast by the BBC would they still have the nerve to insist that their current decision is right. I don't know whether reporters are allowed into these debates but it should not be discounted that, as a source, the press may well monitor these broadcasts for snippets; they will most certainly find some interesting words spoken, not just by Don Touhig and his MP supporters, but by the Minister himself who really did appear to be getting more disillusioned as time went by, expressing himself in terms more favourable to the fight4thepjm campaign than to his Civil Service advisers.

After thought. I'm not sure, bit I think it was 'The Don' himself who read out a complete list of those who comprise the HD Committe, finishing up with the Cabinet Office Ceremonial Officer - Secretary fiishing with a comment! Another comment I remember referred to 19th Century and 1969 rules (amended) and reflected on the need to bring this into the 21st Century - something our esteemed team leaders have argued for a long time.

Finally, although the struggle is not yet over, I think we should all thank our leading team who, by sheer bloody mindedness and hard work, have made this moment possible - thanks lads!

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:52 pm

GLOman

Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 668
Location: Northamptonshire

THE DEBATE

Having now had the chance to print off the Hansard Report, it is clear that I went a bit awry in my general, off the cuff review in so far as what I thought I heard and what was actually said. I don't intend to take up space by changing my first impressions I am sure others will correct and add to what I wrote.

The Hansard Report , printed out, covers eleven pages - you may not drop on the opening page of Don Touhig's introduction to the debate - simply use the previous/next clicks and you're off. It is good value!

My thanks to our leading team most definitely remains unchanged.

David

Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:22 am

BarryF

Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom

Read the Full Debate - Here

We thought you would like to have access to a copy of Hansard in respect of yesterday's PJM debate.

Don Touhig was magnificent.

Dr Julian Lewis was not.

But let's not knock anyone. He and the other MPs took the time and trouble to turn up and support The Don and our case.

I was encouraged by the points raised, many of which I recognised from our lobbying. I was heartened by the Minister's reply to the debate. He was clearly moved by the points raised and he did finish his summing up by saying he would try and encourage HMG and the HD Committee to be flexible on the question of the PJM. That is remarkable progress.

This is but one small step forward - measurable progress that will encourage the Fight4thePJM campaign as we continue our lobbying because we received support from all speakers yesterday, including the FCO Minister.

It must now be clear to the HD Committee and to the civil servants who drive them that our cause is a just one and the will of Parliament must be considered by them. As the debate underlined, they must not ignore Parliament. They must be flexible not obdurate. They must reconsider ....

... and while they are being encouraged to do what any right-minded person would have done a long time ago, we shall continue our work looking into how those civil servants 'administered' the Regulations - and we shall also continue lobbying at each and every opportunity.

One thing is certain, we shall not give up. Not because we are zealots, but because we believe that British veterans deserve better from this Government and from the civil servants.

Meanwhile, if I was an HD Committee member or a civil servant this morning, I would be asking serious questions about my actions to date.

Finally, thanks to each and every supporter who has lobbied away both publicly and behind the scenes - without that massive support, we would not have been able to achieve the success we have.

_________________BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:51 pm

John Feltham

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 764
Location: Townsville, North Queensland

Please write to these PMs.

Just did so.

G'day,

It is my great pleasure to write to you in order to thank you for your contribution to the "Great PJM Debate" held on Tuesday morning, in Westminster Hall.

I think it pretty obvious to all who listened or watched, all over the world, to the cogent arguments, that had those arguments been put to a vote yesterday, the vote have been carried on the voices alone.

It definitely brought into focus the manner in which the HD Committee has been going around in ever decreasing circles, with regard to the PJM.

Thankyou.

John Feltham
Fight4thePJM Member
Townsville
North Queensland
Australia

_________________Merdeka, Merdeka, Merdeka,
from the HD Committee and its decision.

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:37 pm

BarryF

Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom

My "Thank You"

I am writing to express my deep gratitude to you for taking the time and trouble to attend and contribute to Don's debate in support of British veterans who are seeking permission to wear the PJM. As one of those leading the campaign, I am also writing to you on behalf of the widows and families of those veterans of the Far East jungles who have died. Yesterday, for the first time in three years, we felt some hope return - and some pride return for what we did out there. Until then, we had felt not up to standard - the words used to describe our service and our medal by the civil servants who act for the HD Committee.

British veterans watched and listened from around the world. Don Touhig and his supporters clearly won their case and I thought that the Minister even-handedly took on board all the points you made in your presentations and, supported by other speakers, led him to sum up in the way he did - that he would encourage HMG and the HD Committee to think again, be flexible, and demonstrate support for British veterans.

It was a wonderful day for British Malaya-Borneo veterans and for the people of this country who trust in the Parliamentary system. It was a massive step forward in our fight for justice against the anachronistic obduracy of those who 'administer' the Foreign Decorations system and while doing so ignore the will of the People and Parliament.

Thank you - from me, my family, and all the British veterans I am privileged to help in their campaign for the right to wear their Pingat Jasa Malaysia.

The FCO Minister who first promulgated the PJM Recommendation in a Ministerial Statement on 31st January 2006 (Ian Pearson) now says he believes our case is justified and is lobbying for an end to what he call the "official nonsense".

The HD Committee has been referred to as an independent expert committee. It is anything but:

They work in secret under cover of Honours in Confidence.
They do not have a lay Chair as other Honours Committees do.
They make up their own rules or have them created by civil servants.
They apply their own rules and sometimes, as in the case of the PJM, apply them retrospectively.
They police themselves when they are questioned.
They are not independent, nor expert. They very seldom meet and did not meet at all to discuss the PJM and the fate of loyal British veterans - they do business via memos and emails. They rely on briefs created by civil servants.

A majority of those eligible for the PJM do not have a British Medal.

Widows of those who died are also denied the right to wear their husband's PJM.

_________________BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:17 pm

Semengo13

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 442
Location: York

Thanks duly dispatched to our supporters.

I know this will meet with silence from our esteemed Committee, but "thanks guys for everything".

Having witnessed, on-line, the December 11 debate regarding the Pingat Jasa Malaysia I feel that I must write and congratulate you on your closing Ministerial comments…at last after two years of struggling, we finally seem to have attracted the attention of a Minister who appreciates, in fact insists, that the Government establishes the rules rather than the Civil Service…How very refreshing…not to mention democratic!

Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): said in the course of that debate”

‘One of my principal concerns about the HD committee is that it appears to have been inconsistent in its judgments, which I suspect might be partly the result of political interference. It seems that two major rules override its considerations in this arena: double medalling and five-year retrospection. However, we have heard about the commemorative Russian 40th anniversary medal and how that event was marked by the British war medal. More specifically we might consider the Malta 50th anniversary commemorative medal, which is similar, but covered directly by the British Africa star.”

…In light of our research we have formulated a list of no less than 40 such medals which clearly violate this “rule”.

Dr Murrison then, most cogently, observed:

“The rules, which state that one may not wear a medal unless it has been officially approved, are standing in the way of common sense. It might be far more helpful to replace those rules with a more permissive line that might run: “UK citizens may wear awards from foreign powers at their discretion unless they are requested not to.” That would get the Government and the HD committee out of the fix in which they unwittingly find themselves. It would be a sensible way forward.”
…With respect, that is exactly what the 1968 London Gazette entry provides…I insert it here, unexpurgated, for your consideration:

London Gazette Notice of 3rd May 1968:
“The QUEEN has been graciously pleased to approve that Orders, Decorations and Medals conferred with Her Majesty’s permission upon United Kingdom citizens not being servants of the Crown by the Heads or Governments of Commonwealth countries as defined above, or of foreign States, may in all cases be worn by the recipients without restriction.”

We have been unable to find any subsequent revision or retraction of this notice but our claims to the HD Committee under the provisions of it have been rebuffed with the blunt response that ‘it is not applicable to the PJM’…no documentary evidence supporting that contention, despite multiple requests, has been forthcoming.

Any fair-minded person, provided with the facts of the case, as we have set forth in our Rebuttal to the HD Committee* could not fail to come to the conclusion that the decision by that Committee regarding denial of formal permission to wear this medal was taken in error. In short, the HD Committee simply made a poor judgment, a regrettable mistake, which has subsequently been exacerbated by a positive deluge of obfuscatory prose and a plethora of disingenuous statements, promulgated by public servants and elected officials alike.

My belief is that it is now time for the Government to accept ownership and rectify this injustice by encouraging an amendment to the recommendation and to the Ministerial Statement - and further, to make the case to members of the HD Committee, via them to the Queen, for the Pingat Jasa Malaysia to be worn by qualified British citizens.

What possible harm can the accepting and wearing of the PJM do to the Imperial Honours System and what possible harm can it do to permit ageing veterans the right to wear their medal with pride?

I remain Sir, on behalf of 35,000 veterans,

Yours sincerely,

John Gordon ‘Jock’ Fenton
Chairman: Fight4thePJM Association

(ex-Royal Corps of Signals & 17th Gurkha Division)

* Rebuttal document not attached herewith out of respect for your time and tolerance…but we’d be delighted to forward you a copy if and as required…

Barry
My MP Lorely Burt attended the debate on Tuesday but not only that she contacted ITV News to inform them of our situation.ITV news contacted ITV Central News,they thought it was a good story to run.They in turn got in touch with me to ask for an interview, so there I was in front of the camera being interviewed by a journalist this afternoon.It will be shown tonight on Central News.Thats not all,Lorely contacted me personally by phone to tell me she was being interviewed by ITV at Westminster also.
Let us hope we are on the final lap.