well i will gladly/sadly have no-one to check my list....because i am a hermit/loner/Aquarian...so i wont have a parnter/travel buddy/clubbie/friend joining me.

so i guess the only way to see if my list is correct is for TO to check it, i will (pretend to never have met a single human) not know how to ask someone to check my list. im autistic like that...prove im not.

so nobody will see my list cept me and TO...so if i make error at least i wont bring down my (non)friends

Firstly the intent of all these rules is to create a better play experience at nationals. With the clock - it is to be more fair on time and help with time keeping (although at this stage there is NO enforcement of a clock at nationals!). With the list check it is actually to avoid any issues on tournament day at all which will result in a better experience.

Let me explain the logic in further detail.

The list check:1. We want to avoid a situation in round 4 or 5 that an illegal list is discovered. This has happened in the past at a few events and ranking get all messed up. Many people feel cheated and wronged by this situation, and in general its unpleasant and some one will end up unhappy. Blame then often gets put on the judges.2. It is the players responsibility to get the list correct. The judges are only in place as a "prefect" to protect other players. We don't believe it should be their job to check lists (although it has got to that stage...). 3. We want to avoid anyone being DQ'ed at all, especially those who travel far so we wanted a really strong extra point of redundancy.4. We discussed players submitting lists a week before the event, but felt that from a governance point of view there may not be enough trust for this to work. As if a member of the TO's club actually wins nationals there will be "chatter" that lists were shared and meta breaking lists were created. We can easily assume this would be true based on the reaction to just these simple rules we have tried to implement.5. Unfortunately we cant have enough judges to make sure that every list is checked in detail in time between registration and game 1, its not viable. We also want to have as many people playing as possible to make this a great large event. There also may be people who only find out they can play on the day before. We have listed we will try to ensure that every list is double checked before the start of round 2. 6. Everyone should have someone that they play with often (friend / club member) that they can trust with this that is probably also attending nationals. We all theory craft and chat with other gamers. IF you don't have such a person (thats unfortunate and maybe you can make such a friend at nationals), we will need a solution and will probably allow you to submit your list early for checking by the TO. (If too many people do this however we will end up with the meta trust issue listed above). If you have an issue submitting a list early then that's unfortunate...

So you can see the intent is to avoid a DQ at all costs...we want everything to be right before hand so we are asking players to help with that. I cannot see that being so wrong..... Its for everyone's benefit. For this rule to be effective however there needs to be a penalty, else you will just sign your buddy's list off without checking it. We will all feel bad about putting our buddy in jeopardy so we will do a good job checking.

We had hours of discussion around this with several long standing 40k players (many of who have been impacted by incorrect lists at top level events). We all agreed there is not perfect solution, but thought this would be best as it keeps the lists private (relatively), and ensures we will get pretty accurate lists at registration to avoid issues.The main intent is to avoid any issues at the event.It is not an argument to say this will cause more issue by another player getting a game loss. As it just means players haven't put the effort in to check properly. It is the players responsibility to create a legal list not the judges. The judges don't make incorrect lists, and can't be nice if it happens (so we are trying to really avoid that).... So it is good we get all this cleared up before then event to avoid having some very unhappy people.

Its really not a lot of effort guys...

and

About the Clock - this is a proposal not a rule at this stage. There is a poll that will result in the inclusion or exclusion of the rule. there has been a lot of discussion so I wont go further than to say everyone who has actually tested it seems to like the idea. It's not fair to fear or disregard something you haven't tried so I ask that you give it go first before just rejecting the concept. The poll however will decide- democracy and all.

Ultima wrote:Sounds more like the organizers wanting to be able to blame other players for missing errors in lists.To make a 3rd party responsible is totally unfair on both the active player as well as the other player who gains responsibility.List checking needs to be done by the TO and the responsibility is the player to make sure their list is correct.

This along with the idea of time clocks is definitely removing any plans i may have had to attend nationals this year.

At the moment the clocks are very much behind the votes for no clocks so I very much doubt they will be in place. And no we're not trying shift blame, we don't want there to be blame to place anywhere. The extra check is there to make sure we have lists that are correct by adding an extra layer that can happen well before the tournament so that we don't have to rely on on the day changes, have on the day DQs happening or anything that should get in the way of a successful tournament.

On the note of people who don't have others to check their lists, we will have the judges available to receive the lists beforehand to check them. But we're talking the week of, not just at the check-in.

Above this all, however, we haven't locked down on any of these items guys. The current rules pack is the first draft as created by AndrewS. We have now found our judging team and we're trying to discuss these items with you all to make sure that the next draft that goes out takes everyone's comments into consideration. We have already seen a large resistance to the clocks and at the moment they don't look likely to be used. The points currently sit at the majority wanting 2000 points so we're likely to have that moving forward. Your objections to the list check are noted as well and will be discussed by the team as well.

Items like the points and clock will be locked down by the next draft as we need you all practising with as informed a view as possible. It seems that no one has any objections to the missions at the moment either so those will be locked in as well. The list checks, and I foresee terrain rulings, will be debated and given examples for the next while but will be locked down in good time before the tournament.

I understand the principle of having list checked by others to avoid any disqualifications. Most of us will do this anyway. However to give the checker a DQ as well is just over the top.Many years ago I checked a list for the then National champion.We flew up to Joburg and on the Friday night he changed his list without telling me. As luck would have it he ended up playing another IG player who spotted the error. He was immediately given a game loss and was then able to change his list for the second game.

Its just unnecessary to DG as second player for not spotting the error.

I think the topic needs to be brought up now about whether people have issues with the "Death" bit of deathclocks, or the "clock" bit.I know for me I like the idea of clocks, but not the idea of an auto loss. An alternative has been suggested in the poll thread as well.

Dirty Rat wrote:I understand the principle of having list checked by others to avoid any disqualifications. Most of us will do this anyway. However to give the checker a DQ as well is just over the top.Many years ago I checked a list for the then National champion.We flew up to Joburg and on the Friday night he changed his list without telling me. As luck would have it he ended up playing another IG player who spotted the error. He was immediately given a game loss and was then able to change his list for the second game.

Its just unnecessary to DG as second player for not spotting the error.

yes, he was blatantly trying to cheat and was caught.

Having two or even more people responsible for lists with heavy consequences for all involved will force that kind of person to take into account that their actions will have a negative impact on their team mates too. He will likely not take such chances knowing this.

Death, destruction and decay, the worst of which is death.... and DEATH will have its DAY!!

Hi. Bit late but I have joined the Judge panel and will be available to check your list before the event. You will be able to submit your list to me no later than 2 weeks before the event. If you fail to meet the deadline then your list will not be accepted. My email will be in the final rules pack. However. If you submit a list to me for checking you will not be allowed to change that list after submitting. And I will be doing a full check on your list and models so it is advised that you get early to the venue. Basically you have an option if you don't want to have someone sign off for you. But it comes with more strict conditions attached. Full details will be in the final pack

Chaplain_Steve wrote:Hi. Bit late but I have joined the Judge panel and will be available to check your list before the event. You will be able to submit your list to me no later than 2 weeks before the event. If you fail to meet the deadline then your list will not be accepted. My email will be in the final rules pack. However. If you submit a list to me for checking you will not be allowed to change that list after submitting. And I will be doing a full check on your list and models so it is advised that you get early to the venue. Basically you have an option if you don't want to have someone sign off for you. But it comes with more strict conditions attached. Full details will be in the final pack

DONE ill gladly hand in my list 2 weeks before hand.

TBH my list is always sorted a month before a big match, no point in changing last minute...stick to what i now and learn to use it.

Rift.It seems that you still havnt grown up yet.It was an innocent mistake on his part.He misunderstood the platoon rule. When you pointed it out to him he accepted the ruling without any arguments . If I remember correctly[ I was on the next table] he then offered to play the game with his original list[ having accepted his game loss] and you rather childishly said no and walked off. Please correct me if I am wrong.The fact that you can hold a grudge for so long worries me that you are still playing at competitive levels

I call a cheater a cheater. Hes supposed to be veteran player that knew his rules inside and out. If i was not chosen to play him 1st he would've screwed over another player, I have no time for such people. As for childish conduct, after his actions the previous year, you and him are the last people to make comments on childish behavior. (he knew what he was doing, and so do you)

he took a chance and got caught, hes lucky he was not disqualified from the tournament completely.

be that as it may, you're making this a personal attack that will just cause further animosity.

So shall we rather stay objective and get a Nationals going that runs smoothly and doesn't have any of this other crap hanging over it.

personally, I endorse any rule that helps eliminate possible cheating or "over sights" as you say.

Im fully behind having the list checked by at least 2 people and both ensuring that the list is correct and BOTH taking the responsibility if it isn't. This will ensure the list is right.

Now, I did read that for some having someone else check their list might be problematic as there simply just are anyone else. that's a fair argument, I'm not opposed to have lists made public a week or even more before hand for scrutiny by the community to help catch possible "over sights". (Or if you really want to, let me know, i will check your list....or send it to the TO or one of the judges and they will check it for you.)

In fact I've never had an issue with people knowing what im playing, the whole concept that someone might build to counter a specific list is ridiculous and you're welcome to do so, this will in all likelihood just weaken your chances against other lists....you kind of need to take into account that you will be facing 5 or 4 other lists as well....and that there is of course a chance that you might not face me at all.

Death, destruction and decay, the worst of which is death.... and DEATH will have its DAY!!