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With the leaders of the nation sacrificing themselves, they want to sent message to the world that they fought the opression of the Federation to the very end (Uzumi even talked about it in those episodes IIRC). If they got captured alive and forced to sign some take-over deals with their names (which the Federation will undoubtedly force them to) it wouldn’t make as strong a message. That's how the fight.

Again, what are you talking about? What take over deals?

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My memory of Destiny is a bit hazy, so would you be so kind to give me evidence that the show properly addressed people’s opinion by the time ORB signing that deal with the Federation? By “properly addressed” I mean: directly highlighting on people’s opinion about that deal, not reflecting on people’s reaction over a completely different issue like Royal Marriage.

The Royal Marriage does, in part, reflect the people's opinion of the government.

They don't need to directly highlight people's opinion about the deal because, if this was like the US president taking away the right to vote, the averse reaction would be noticeable.

The fact that they could have a Royal Marriage peacefully is sufficient to show that Orb's ideals are nowhere near anything like democracy.

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In Archangel’s case is that Uzumi most likely don’t won’t to involve the foreigners and the kids further due to his personal feelings not by what they said.

In Kusanagi’s case, Uzumi know he’ll lose, thus, instead of leaving the spaceship to be pillaged by Federation or to use it ineffectively in the atmosphere battle, he sent it to space with enough squad to do some more useful things, while at the same time throwing Cagalli, the “heir of ORB” (which is still a kid at that point), inside it to survive to rebuild ORB again someday.

That’s my take on it. If you don’t agree, just say so.

His personal feelings aside, Athha is still breaking Orb's ideals by doing what he did.

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If they could evacuate most of the citizens before the previous battle happened

They only evacuated the citizens near Morgenroete and other military facilities. That still doesn't change the fact that civilian lives were lost.

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Originally Posted by Haak

I think the ideal of every nation is to not let another nation invade it....

That particular "ideal" was more of a general rule to maintain the larger ideal which is neutrality.

Orb's ideals consist of three specific claims:

Orb will not invade other nations.
Orb will not allow other nations to invade it.
Orb will not interfere in the conflicts of other nations.

Helping the AF build the Gundams violates the third claim.
Reducing Orb's fighting capability in the middle of an enemy invasion violates the second claim.
If the Kusanagi is still considered part of Orb, then interfering in the battles between the EA and the PLANTs also violates the third claim.

Orb will not invade other nations.
Orb will not allow other nations to invade it.
Orb will not interfere in the conflicts of other nations.

Helping the AF build the Gundams violates the third claim.
Reducing Orb's fighting capability in the middle of an enemy invasion violates the second claim.
If the Kusanagi is still considered part of Orb, then interfering in the battles between the EA and the PLANTs also violates the third claim.

These are rules to maintain neutrality which is the core ideal. Helping the AF build Gundams does indeed violate the third one. But allowing the invasion to happen does not mean they've violated the second "ideal" because they've maintained the larger ideal in doing so. If it was then there would've been laws preventing Cagalli's father doing what he did which were never mentioned. And Kusanagi did not interfere with an outside conflict since they were fighting the very side that had invaded them.

The core ideal is neutrality. Those rules are just methods to maintain that.

Maybe I didn’t word it correctly. What I meant is terms of surrender, just like how Japan surrendered to USA after Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Uzumi and other higher-up will sent a stronger message by dying during the fight instead of signing the terms of surrender (or whatever you call it).

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Originally Posted by monster

The fact that they could have a Royal Marriage peacefully is sufficient to show that Orb's ideals are nowhere near anything like democracy.

Well, they could simply drove any protestors far away from the route of the wedding for all we know. In short, the anime at the time only focusing on Cagalli’s marriage and the “happiness” surrounding it. That’s it.

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Originally Posted by monster

His personal feelings aside, Athha is still breaking Orb's ideals by doing what he did.

I don't think so. IMO he simply using the resources he got for better use.

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Originally Posted by monster

They only evacuated the citizens near Morgenroete and other military facilities. That still doesn't change the fact that civilian lives were lost.

And it’s ORB fault that those people lost their lives due to the attack of the oppressing nation? They already did their best to protect them while fighting enemies that tramples on their dignity and rights as a nation. Like I said, when your nation are being invaded by other hostile nation who disregarded your rights, it becomes the matter of every citizens of the oppressed country, not just the government/military. The government/military may try their best to protect the civilians who can't participate in the battle, but when lives are lost, it not the fault of the said government/military.

Yet the parties responsible were not brought to justice by the government.

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If it was then there would've been laws preventing Cagalli's father doing what he did which were never mentioned.

Maybe there were no such laws because these are merely policies which can be changed.

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And Kusanagi did not interfere with an outside conflict since they were fighting the very side that had invaded them.

Nope, the battle that they interfered in had nothing to do with them. Orb wasn't a participant.

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The core ideal is neutrality. Those rules are just methods to maintain that.

Then how can you maintain those ideals when you break the rules meant to do exactly that?

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Maybe I didn’t word it correctly. What I meant is terms of surrender, just like how Japan surrendered to USA after Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Uzumi and other higher-up will sent a stronger message by dying during the fight instead of signing the terms of surrender (or whatever you call it).

There is no need to force a surrender once you've beaten your enemy.

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Well, they could simply drove any protestors far away from the route of the wedding for all we know. In short, the anime at the time only focusing on Cagalli’s marriage and the “happiness” surrounding it. That’s it.

Then don't assume there were protestors and accept that there aren't.

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I don't think so. IMO he simply using the resources he got for better use.

You think whatever you want, by letting Freedom, Justice, the Archangel and Kusanagi go, Athha reduced his ability to defend Orb and made it easier for the AF to invade it.

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And it’s ORB fault that those people lost their lives due to the attack of the oppressing nation?

Oh, I think the Federation will force it, given how Azrail wanted to humiliate Uzumi for his “stubborn-ness”.

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Originally Posted by monster

Then don't assume there were protestors and accept that there aren't.

I’m not assuming there’s any protestors. I’m making a “what if” case to stress that they only focus on the “happiness” of the wedding ceremony and nothing else. That itself is not enough an argument that every citizen reacted similar to those happy crowd during the royal wedding. The story simply didn’t addressed the public’s opinion enough.

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Originally Posted by monster

You think whatever you want, by letting Freedom, Justice, the Archangel and Kusanagi go, Athha reduced his ability to defend Orb and made it easier for the AF to invade it.

Thanx, and I will . Once again, IMO Uzumi did sent those spaceships for greater good and Kusanagi with Cagalli is a symbol that ORB wasn't completely conquered. You see him breaking the ideals, I see him maintaining that ideals the best he can.

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Originally Posted by monster

It is when they could've prevented the attack from happening.

By dropping your dignity and kissing the ass of the oppressor? I doubt any proper sovereign country will do that easily without a fight. Even a poor nation will stand up against it even in front of a more powerful military force (remember Vietnam, Afghanistan, Somalia, etc?), let alone first-world country like ORB.

Oh, I think the Federation will force it, given how Azrail wanted to humiliate Uzumi for his “stubborn-ness”.

No, Azrael wanted the mass driver, Morgenroete, and test his new Gundams.

And, again once you've beaten your enemy, there is no surrender. Your enemy is defeated already.

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The story simply didn’t addressed the public’s opinion enough.

Of course it did. Do you really think the marriage could've happened in such an open space if Orb wasn't a peaceful country. Do you really think Orb would be a peaceful country if there has been some drastic change like what would happen if people in the US could no longer vote?

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IMO Uzumi did sent those spaceships for greater good and Kusanagi with Cagalli is a symbol that ORB wasn't completely conquered. You see him breaking the ideals, I see him maintaining that ideals the best he can.

Two years is a lot of time to pick up experience. Even areas like rebuilding and reconstructions require negotiations and meetings. Yuna is apparently so much more experienced and yet all his manipulations was still painfully obvious. I find it hard to see that you need that much political experience to see what's going on. All she needed to do was realise that Yuna was being a patronising arsehole. You don't even need political experience to figure that out.

But it's just an extremely short term distraction for the people at the expense of her entire happiness. That doesn't even remotely sound smart. The fact that Cagalli didn't love Yuna is hardly a minor issue. This is apparently a decision she's "agonised" over.

Two years really isn't all that much time, especially when you consider that Cagalli is a Greenhorn in a room full of experienced Political Animals. That and Cagalli is used to "doing" and forcing her way. The Political Process is full of red tape and roadblocks everywhere, even if Cagalli wanted something it would have to go through a ton of Political Bureaucracy first and that would take a long time before it reaches her desk or if it reaches it at all.

He was obvious to the "VIEWER" because of the smiles he gives when Cagalli isn't looking or the things he does or thinks that Cagalli just doesn't know about. Cagalli isn't a mind reader, she see's Yuna as a fiend but she was lead to believe that Yuna isn't speaking out against her because he wants to and that things will be better once he's in a position that he doesn't have to pander to the hardliners. Sure Cagalli suspected and knew that Yuna had another motivation that he was hiding and that she was being manipulated but she felt that it was fine if it benefited ORB in the end. That and she didn't know what else she could do since you just didn't have the power or experience to oppose the party Yuna was a part of without causing chaos in ORB.

It's only one, many more would follow. A Royal Wedding is a big thing for many countries and distracts the people for quite some time. They easily could have them appear "in love" in public to keep the people distracted. Even more so if Cagalli ends up pregnant and they later have a child.

No, Azrael wanted the mass driver, Morgenroete, and test his new Gundams.

And, again once you've beaten your enemy, there is no surrender. Your enemy is defeated already.

LOL that’s a given since that was his original goal. I didn’t forget it and I thought I don’t even have to mention it. It was Azrail’s ego that makes him wants to humiliate Uzumi (assuming he took your advise by not killing himself and continue living either forced to surrender or captured as a prisoner).

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Originally Posted by monster

Of course it did. Do you really think the marriage could've happened in such an open space if Orb wasn't a peaceful country. Do you really think Orb would be a peaceful country if there has been some drastic change like what would happen if people in the US could no longer vote?

You know, contrasting public opinion doesn’t have to go all-out civil war like you said. Some little crowd of protestors shown is good enough (ORB has been a peaceful country for a while, the citizens aren’t use to violence, let alone committing all-out civil war in such a short time). Plus, the wedding took place not long enough with the deals, so large scale uprising at the moment is very unlikely.

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Originally Posted by monster

He could do better if he wanted to.

Your opinion is as valid as mine.

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Originally Posted by monster

No, by forming an alliance with them.

Forming an Alliance to help exterminate an entire race? With that said race also a large part of ORB's citizens? The treaty might not blatantly stated it, but Uzumi already saw through the Federation's true objective (lead by Azrail). Well, I don’t know about you, but I personally think it’s not an option. As for ORB, once again, the alliance simply doesn’t go well with their ideals. Also, the “Alliance” is just in-name-only imo, the truth is: ORB is ordered to drop their neutrality and freedom as a sovereign nation and reduces them into Federation’s loyal dog. It’s George W. Bush’s “If you’re not with us, you’re against us” crap all over again, only with more sinister Nazi-like goal this time.

Yet the parties responsible were not brought to justice by the government.

Indeed, but it's not all or nothing. It was a serious point that they had broken the ideal of neutrality but just because they broke it in one situation doesn't suddenly mean it means nothing to them.

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Maybe there were no such laws because these are merely policies which can be changed.

Exactly. There is some leeway as long as they commit to the core ideal.

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Nope, the battle that they interfered in had nothing to do with them. Orb wasn't a participant.

Orb was a participant the moment the Earth Alliance attacked them.

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Then how can you maintain those ideals when you break the rules meant to do exactly that?.

Exactly like they did...

Spoiler for Destined Fate:

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Two years really isn't all that much time, especially when you consider that Cagalli is a Greenhorn in a room full of experienced Political Animals. That and Cagalli is used to "doing" and forcing her way. The Political Process is full of red tape and roadblocks everywhere, even if Cagalli wanted something it would have to go through a ton of Political Bureaucracy first and that would take a long time before it reaches her desk or if it reaches it at all.

Which is exactly what she would've spent her time doing for two whole years. She would've been part of all that political bureaucracy, unless she was sitting on her arse for two years.

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He was obvious to the "VIEWER" because of the smiles he gives when Cagalli isn't looking or the things he does or thinks that Cagalli just doesn't know about. Cagalli isn't a mind reader, she see's Yuna as a fiend but she was lead to believe that Yuna isn't speaking out against her because he wants to and that things will be better once he's in a position that he doesn't have to pander to the hardliners. Sure Cagalli suspected and knew that Yuna had another motivation that he was hiding and that she was being manipulated but she felt that it was fine if it benefited ORB in the end. That and she didn't know what else she could do since you just didn't have the power or experience to oppose the party Yuna was a part of without causing chaos in ORB.

He was obvious to the viewer for a whole lot of things, including the way he talked to Cagalli like she was a pitiful girl and the way he'd make major life decisions like rushing the wedding without her word in it: things she could clearly see for herself. And she found out that Yuna was a hardliner later on when she saw Yuna ordering the soldiers to fire at Minerva if they approached. She no longer had any delusions about Yuna's political position and went along anyway.

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It's only one, many more would follow. A Royal Wedding is a big thing for many countries and distracts the people for quite some time. They easily could have them appear "in love" in public to keep the people distracted. Even more so if Cagalli ends up pregnant and they later have a child.

This wasn't even remotely mentioned, but she'd seriously give her entire life even more so for constant propaganda. That sounds even less smart...

And it wouldn't distract the people for "quite some time". Probably for about a week at the most. It's not even possible to milk a wedding for longer than that. A bit of propaganda with extremely limited effect is not enough to sacrifice your entire life for. Anyone can see that...

Episode 21

Well the first part was certainly awkward but it was tolerable. The second part was interesting as Shinn meets Stellar for the first time. Looks like Shinn is really setting himself up as another Kamille, but that's a bad way to go imo. Shinn is a decent character in his own right but Kamille was a much better character so for the show to try and make direct comparisons would be a bad move. It just further highlights the gap between the two shows and how Seed Destiny needs to differentiate itself more.

Episode 22

You better have a damn good justification for that, Kira.

Episode 23

Oh that's right I forgot: Kira = God...

Geez Kira is there anything you can't do?

Also, lol at them introducing Heine just to kill him off. That's just a cheap trick so that they don't have to kill off a more prominent character.

Episode 24 & 25

The meeting with Kira and Athrun was reasonably well done but Athrun never really addressed the problem of the attempted assassination of Lacus Clyne. He just said that it being the Chairman is jumping to conclusions. Whilst that may be true, Kira and Lacus have to consider all options so they're perfectly right not to trust the Chairman just yet. Their lives are on the line after all. Athrun should've promised that the assassination would be investigated.

Episode 28

I don't like the way they've made Kira so much stronger than Athrun (I thought they were equals?) but that was still a very good episode. Brutality and tragedy all round.

It was Azrail’s ego that makes him wants to humiliate Uzumi (assuming he took your advise by not killing himself and continue living either forced to surrender or captured as a prisoner).

If anything, Azrael would just kill Uzumi.

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You know, contrasting public opinion doesn’t have to go all-out civil war like you said. Some little crowd of protestors shown is good enough (ORB has been a peaceful country for a while, the citizens aren’t use to violence, let alone committing all-out civil war in such a short time). Plus, the wedding took place not long enough with the deals, so large scale uprising at the moment is very unlikely.

Except they're living in a world where information can travel fast. There's enough time to form a protest. Beside, do you really think Cagalli is the type of person who would go through with it if people were protesting the idea?

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Your opinion is as valid as mine.

It's not just an opinion. Uzumi had two mobile suits that could go toe to toe with the AF's newest Gundams and even beat them given their better cooperation. It's a fact that he could do better at utilizing them to defend Orb.

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Forming an Alliance to help exterminate an entire race? With that said race also a large part of ORB's citizens? The treaty might not blatantly stated it, but Uzumi already saw through the Federation's true objective (lead by Azrail).

I'm not talking about Uzumi in SEED. I'm talking about the Seirans in Destiny.

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Well, I don’t know about you, but I personally think it’s not an option.

I didn't say you have to agree with it. Personally, I don't either.

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As for ORB, once again, the alliance simply doesn’t go well with their ideals.

Of course not.

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Also, the “Alliance” is just in-name-only imo

Sure.

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Originally Posted by Haak

Indeed, but it's not all or nothing. It was a serious point that they had broken the ideal of neutrality but just because they broke it in one situation doesn't suddenly mean it means nothing to them.

They broke it 2 or 3 times in SEED.

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Exactly. There is some leeway as long as they commit to the core ideal.

If you give a leeway for one of the claims, then you have to give a leeway for another. Thus, by joining the Alliance in Destiny, then Orb forms into a relationship with other nations on Earth. And any conflict that the Alliance has is also Orb's conflict.

Remember, the reason given for the war in Destiny was the Junius 7 drop, which also affected Orb.

If neither you nor Obelisk is willing to give that leeway for Orb in Destiny, then the other choice is for you guys to accept that these are truly not so fundamental to Orb such that the government may change them without having any significant dissension from the people.

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Orb was a participant the moment the Earth Alliance attacked them.

If that was how you interpret it, then Orb was a participant the moment they helped build the Gundams. And yet Uzumi still refused to get into the war. So no, the fact that Orb had a conflict with the AF doesn't give them the right (under their own ideals) to interfere in a conflict between the AF and the PLANTs.

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Exactly like they did...

Yeah, by ignoring those ideals when it doesn't suit them, and then upholding it once it becomes convenient again.

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Episode 24 and 25

The meeting with Kira and Athrun was reasonably well done but Athrun never really addressed the problem of the attempted assassination of Lacus Clyne. He just said that it being the Chairman is jumping to conclusions. Whilst that may be true, Kira and Lacus have to consider all options so they're perfectly right not to trust the Chairman just yet. Their lives are on the line after all. Athrun should've promised that the assassination would be investigated.

Episode 28

I don't like the way they've made Kira so much stronger than Athrun (I thought they were equals?) but that was still a very good episode. Brutality and tragedy all round.

Which makes it even worse for Uzumi since he didn’t go down while fighting, but going down like a convict being executed. Like I said, it won’t send a strong message to the world and will only give Azrail a chance to ridicule him in front of a camera for all the world to see before executing him.

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Originally Posted by monster

Except they're living in a world where information can travel fast. There's enough time to form a protest. Beside, do you really think Cagalli is the type of person who would go through with it if people were protesting the idea?

IMO seeing a crowd of protestors won’t be enough to build Cagalli’s resolve to go against the other senior politicians. She already given up argument at that point.

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Originally Posted by monster

It's not just an opinion. Uzumi had two mobile suits that could go toe to toe with the AF's newest Gundams and even beat them given their better cooperation. It's a fact that he could do better at utilizing them to defend Orb.

How do you know Uzumi and the other politicians with him were able control MSs and use them to fight properly? and like I said, it will only give him a higher chance of them being captured and used by Federation.

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Originally Posted by monster

I'm not talking about Uzumi in SEED. I'm talking about the Seirans in Destiny.

What? In this particular case, I was talking about Uzumi in SEED since one page ago, and you have been replying to me like you already knew it. Now you suddenly changed the focus that it’s all about Seirans?

*sigh* okay then. In the case of the Seirans, the issue is more complex since LOGOS already release the the photos of Zala faction dropping Junius 7 as a propaganda tool to drive the public to label PLANT as a murderous terrorrist. Things remains, Cagalli knows the actual truth. She was there during the battle and can easily ask Athrun for details. So, she knows that the deal to help AF wage war against PLANT due to false accusation is so very wrong. The whole thing already violate ORB’s ideals anyway which ORB higher-ups should have the guts to say no to Federation and fight for it. Cagalli should’ve announce what she knows in Junius 7 drop to help clearing PLANTS’s name in eyes of the Earth nations and securing the neutrality of her country.

Which makes it even worse for Uzumi since he didn’t go down while fighting

Of course he would.

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IMO seeing a crowd of protestors won’t be enough to build Cagalli’s resolve to go against the other senior politicians. She already given up argument at that point.

She's given up the argument precisely because no one else would support her. If she sees there are people who would support her, then she wouldn't have given up so easily.

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How do you know Uzumi and the other politicians with him were able control MSs and use it to fight properly? and like I said, it will only give him a higher chance of being captured and used by Federation.

Who says anything about Uzumi and the politicians controlling mobile suits?

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What? In this particular case, I was talking about Uzumi in SEED since one page ago, and you have been replying to me like you already knew it. Now you suddenly changed the focus that it’s all about Seirans?

I'm talking about this:

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Originally Posted by monster

No, by forming an alliance with them.

When I posted that, I was talking about the Seirans. They have no problem siding with the AF and, in their minds, they're preventing an outright take over of Orb by the AF.

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

*sigh* okay then. In the case of the Seirans, the issue is more complex since LOGOS already release the the photos of Zala faction dropping Junius 7 as a propaganda tool to drive the public to label PLANT as a murderous terrorrist. Things remains, Cagalli knows the actual truth. She was there during the battle and can easily ask Athrun for details. So, she knows that the deal to help AF wage war against PLANT due to false accusation is so very wrong. The whole thing already violate ORB’s ideals anyway which ORB higher-ups should have the guts to say no to Federation and fight for it. Cagalli should’ve announce what she knows in Junius 7 drop to help clearing PLANTS’s name in eyes of the Earth nations and securing the neutrality of her country.

Except Cagalli doesn't know that. She was caught up in Minerva the entire time and she doesn't have the proof to show that these Coordinators were not ordered by ZAFT. It doesn't matter what she thinks she knows if she can't back it up.

When I posted that, I was talking about the Seirans. They have no problem siding with the AF and, in their minds, they're preventing an outright take over of Orb by the AF.

Then why did you post that in reply of my talking about Uzumi facing AF oppression in SEED?

Also, preventing outright take-over by kissing the oppressor's ass is still humiliating for a sovereign nation to me. Outright take-over itself has never been a right for any country or alliance to do.

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Originally Posted by monster

Except Cagalli doesn't know that. She was caught up in Minerva the entire time and she doesn't have the proof to show that these Coordinators were not ordered by ZAFT. It doesn't matter what she thinks she knows if she can't back it up.

A simple fact that she knows: Minerva, the official military force of PLANT, was fighting those rebels and trying stop Junius 7, plus with her (a leader of a nation) actually there being a witness is enough to back her argument. If you think otherwise, then suit yourself.

Your opinion is irrelevant compared to the nation of Orb. Uzumi himself once said that he can't choose his daughter's life over the nation.

Then again, if these ideals weren't that important, then his choice makes more sense.

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Then why did you post that in reply of my talking about Uzumi facing AF oppression in SEED?

I was contrasting Uzumi's decision, which caused civilian lives, with that of the Seirans, which didn't. That was a response to you stating that Uzumi should force the Archangel go because survival is important. My point is, if survival is important, then the Seirans did the right thing by not going to war and risking civilian lives.

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Also, preventing outright take-over by kissing the oppressor's as is still humiliating for a sovereign nation to me.

Well, that's you. There are people who would be glad to not come under invasion.

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As imple fact the she knows: Minerva, the official military force of PLANT, was fighting those rebels and trying stop Junius 7, plus with her (a leader of a nation) actually there being a witness is enough to back her argument.

When the witness is of ZAFT or formerly of ZAFT, then no, it's not enough.

You twisted the meaning of my words. He already knows that his country has lost due to being invaded by a more powerful country. The last thing he could do is to sent strong message to the world that ORB leaders fought till the end of their lives, not being executed by Federation while kneeling down. How many times do I have to say this? Uzumi even talked about leaving strong message to the world in those episodes.

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Originally Posted by monster

If this was as important as democracy is in the USA, there wouldn't be just a few number of protestors. You seem to keep ignoring this point.

No, it’s the anime which keeps ignoring the point by not properly addresssing people’s opinion about deal.

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Originally Posted by monster

Your opinion is irrelevant compared to the nation of Orb. Uzumi himself once said that he can't choose his daughter's life over the nation.

Then again, if these ideals weren't that important, then his choice makes more sense.

Unless, it turns out that his daughter is the last hope that will prevent ORB for being completely conquered under Federation and kiss-asser politicians for good.

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Originally Posted by monster

I was contrasting Uzumi's decision, which caused civilian lives, with that of the Seirans, which didn't. That was a response to you stating that Uzumi should force the Archangel go because survival is important. My point is, if survival is important, then the Seirans did the right thing by not going to war and risking civilian lives.

IMO he forced Archangel to go because he thought the crew which mainly are from different countries have no obligation to die for ORB fighting a loosing battle regardless of what they said. Might as well send them and Kusanagi and the heir of ORB to space to live the day and do their own thing the best they can.

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Originally Posted by monster

Well, that's you. There are people who would be glad to not come under invasion.

Yeah, me and a lot of other people and governments from many countries who won’t give up their dignity to oppressors.

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Originally Posted by monster

When the witness is of ZAFT or formerly of ZAFT, then no, it's not enough.

She doesn’t need ZAFT witness to know that Minerva was fighting the faction that dropped Junius 7.

You twisted the meaning of my words. He already knows that his country has lost due to being invaded by a more powerful country. The last thing he could do is to sent strong message to the world that ORB leaders fought till the end of their lives, not being executed by Federation while kneeling down. How many times do I have to say this? Uzumi even talked about leaving strong message to the world in those episodes.

What does it matter if something so important as your country's ideals were being threatened? He should be fighting tooth and nail if he has to.

Unless, of course, they weren't that important.

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No, it’s the anime which keeps ignoring the point by not properly addresssing people’s opinion about deal.

Nope, it's you who is stuck in your own false interpretation of Orb's ideals, thus not being able to accept that people were not having that big a problem with the deal.

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Unless, it turns out that his daughter is the last hope that will prevent ORB for being completely conquered under Federation and kiss-asser politicians for good.

Except Orb was completely conquered. Once again, you're ignoring what the anime presented.

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IMO he forced Archangel to go because he thought the crew which mainly are from different countries have no obligation to die for ORB fighting a loosing battle regardless of what they said. Might as well send them and Kusanagi and the heir of ORB to space to live the day and do their own thing the best they can.

That's still choosing their lives over his nation, especially since they were willing to fight for that very nation.

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Yeah, me and a lot of other people and governments from many countries who won’t give up their dignity to oppressors.

Good for you, but don't take it out on people who think otherwise.

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She doesn’t need ZAFT witness to know that Minerva was fighting the faction that dropped Junius 7.

She needs proof to convince others. It doesn't matter what Cagalli herself thinks.

What does it matter if something so important as your country's ideals were being threatened? He should be fighting tooth and nail if he has to.

Unless, of course, they weren't that important.

Like I said, Uzumi was fighting in his own way. That’s the way I see it and I simply accept what he was doing.

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Originally Posted by monster

Nope, it's you who is stuck in your own false interpretation of Orb's ideals, thus not being able to accept that people were not having that big a problem with the deal.

If that’s how you say about my own opinion, then fine. Call me stuck or whatever you want, but I know that the anime never properly addressed the issue head-on for us to know for sure. There are a lot of blanks that can be filled by our interpretations. Individual interpretation of a work of art that left a blank space is never false. I never accuse yours being false. It’s you who keep saying that my interpretation is false etc.

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Originally Posted by monster

Except Orb was completely conquered. Once again, you're ignoring what the anime presented.

I was talking in the context of what Uzumi’s thinking. Yes, I realised that, technically, ORB is conquered. I’m not ignoring anything about that. But that’s not what Uzumi thought when he sent Cagalli to escape.

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Originally Posted by monster

That's still choosing their lives over his nation, especially since they were willing to fight for that very nation.

His nation is already lost, the civilians is already evacuating, and ORB's military already fighting, partly to buy time for Archangel and Kusanagi to escape since they can't do more than that. Even if Archangel and Kusanagi and the MSs inside them were to fight, they will still lose against the AF's overwhelming power. Knowing this, Uzumi has his own set of morals of not letting foreigners of Archangel to die fighting a losing battle for ORB. Like I said before, if you see that as breaking the ideals then fine. I have my own opinion.

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Originally Posted by monster

Good for you, but don't take it out on people who think otherwise.

I never take it out on you. I’m just stating my own opinion about the writing of this series.

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Originally Posted by monster

She needs proof to convince others. It doesn't matter what Cagalli herself thinks.

It’s not only about what she thinks. It’s about what she already knows (that Minerva was fighting those who dropped Junius 7).

Like I said, Uzumi was fighting in his own way. That’s the way I see it and I simply accept what he was doing.

Yeah, but I don't see how you can come up with that message to the world stuff or not wanting to be humiliated.

The way I see it, he let himself die simply as punishment for failing Orb.

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There are a lot of blanks that can be filled by our interpretations. Individual interpretation of a work of art that left a blank space is never false.

Individual interpretation must still have basis on the work itself. The anime presented a peaceful country and you're talking about people having problems and then crying foul when you don't get that. That's not a valid interpretation of the show.

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I was talking in the context of what Uzumi’s thinking. Yes, I realised that, technically, ORB is conquered. I’m not ignoring anything about that. But that’s not what Uzumi thought when he sent Cagalli to escape.

Yeah, but again, a country's ideal should be bigger than any one person. For Uzumi to do what he did shows a disregard toward that ideal.

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His nation is already lost,

Not at that point.

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the civilians is already evacuating,

They did not evacuate the country. They evacuated the places near military bases.

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and ORB's military already fighting

Exactly. If this ideal was so important, then they should've continued the fight and not reduce their military strength.

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Even if Archangel and Kusanagi and the MSs inside them were to fight, they will still lose against the AF's overwhelming power.

We don't know that. Freedom alone was capable of keeping up with Destiny era mobile suits. It certainly could help against mere Strike Daggers.

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I never take it out on you. I’m just stating my own opinion about the writing of this series.

Oh, I don't get personal on these types of discussions (or at least, I try not to). I was talking about Orb in Destiny of course.

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It’s not only about what she thinks. It’s about what she already knows (that Minerva was fighting those who dropped Junius 7).

Well, unfortunately, Orb cannot make a decision based only on what Cagalli thinks she knows without any proof.