All that tech talk and discussion of what a console can achieve, the "special hardware" included in PS4 and XBO and what not made me remember how the custom chips of the Amiga had been pushed for years to deliver visuals and effects you thought were never possible on that platform.

In about 2008, when the trophy update was coming, the demo scene production "Linger In Shadows" had been published as an interactive experiment on PSN. Yeah, the port was kinda weak, the interactivity was low and you had almost no idea what was going on anyway, but hell, it was a demo turned into an interactive video.

Now, new hardware arrives and everyone talks about how to push the limits already, GPGPU, hUMA and all that stuff barely someone understands anyway...

... so why not have some programmers show us what is possible?

Wouldn't it be cool to have indie, hobbyist or even pro programmers show off what they are able to squeeze out of the hardware? Those productions could be published for free, or maybe even paid (donations? Tied to PS+? Etc.) in a subsection of the PSN store and XBL marketplace.

While demo scene productions on PCs are cool, it is way more interesting to see the results on a non-upgradeable platform.

Also, I want to remind that demos are not only tech showcases, but also art. The console games industry should show more support to new and upcoming talents this way.

Imagine having the real-time demo of "The Dark Sorcerer" by Quantic Dream at home!

When Microsoft and Sony killed homebrew on the 360 and PS3, this was a side-effect.

Old consoles do get demos. I've seen an NES one, for starters.

If the manufacturers want to have control over what gets published to prevent hacks, piracy et al, let them have it... they could decide to publish those productions. Of course that is not a free for all system, but at least it would enable people to get something out there, even with a gate keeper.. right?

Oh god, if there's a day in the future where I can download and run a 64k PS4 demo I will be *so* happy. Or even failing that, some kind of environment where every classic demo runs flawlessly and without having to mess about with IRQs and HIMEM.SYS... my knees weaken at the thought.

I own both .detuned and LingerInShadows so I hope they allow for people like that to come to the PS4 too. I just hope the companies making the games become a bit smarter because both were vastly overpriced.

I own both .detuned and LingerInShadows so I hope they allow for people like that to come to the PS4 too. I just hope the companies making the games become a bit smarter because both were vastly overpriced.

I'd dig "free", too. Given there's that dude who's heavily pushing indie stuff on PS4 (his name escapes me) maybe they'd be inclined to sponsor/fostor demoscene groups into making free demos on PSN? Makes sense... groups score free dev gear and an exponentially larger audience, Sony gets tech demos that show off their console *and* would practically have first dibs should any of them contemplate making a game (hi Remedy!).

Those things would be what, cutscenes that you can pause and move the camera/lighting and such stuff? And/or levels that have your character run through the most physically accurate water imaginable with nothing else? Sort of like the rubber duck bathtub from PS3?

Sounds fun.

They could even have contests every now and then with different themes and rip off every single good idea scout new talent.

Holy shit, could you imagine what Farbrausch could do if given access to code "to the metal" (ugh) on PS4? Full-time devs would spend years catching up to them.

Originally Posted by Binabik15

Those things would be what, cutscenes that you can pause and move the camera/lighting and such stuff? And/or levels that have your character run through the most physically accurate water imaginable with nothing else? Sort of like the rubber duck bathtub from PS3?

Sounds fun.

They could even have contests every now and then with different themes and rip off every single good idea scout new talent.

Not even that... just eye candy.

I'm not sure about "themes" and contests etc. That would imply that they'd unleash the feature out for everyone and their dog to use. I'm picturing more maybe 10-15 big-name demoscene groups (I have no idea how many AAA ones are out there now, it's been a while since I dipped my toe in that particular pool) who have free reign to do whatever they want.

I'll paste some examples of what I know to be fine demos. Keep in mind that the modern ones are all intended to run at 60fps, but you know... Youtube.Future Crew - Second Reality (according to the comments, it's just hit it's 20th anniversary. TWENTY YEARS AGO. FWIW a 486 could run this quite comfortably. And done by 5 or 6 guys who did it for fun. They later became Remedy :) (PS. No 3D cards and they weren't professional coders/developers)Farbrausch - .the .product From 2000, this is a 64 kilobyte demo! Incredible.Future Crew - Unreal (1992)

Those things would be what, cutscenes that you can pause and move the camera/lighting and such stuff? And/or levels that have your character run through the most physically accurate water imaginable with nothing else? Sort of like the rubber duck bathtub from PS3?

Sounds fun.

They could even have contests every now and then with different themes and rip off every single good idea scout new talent.

It would hopefully be something like this 4k demo (yes, they used only 4k of code)

Has anyone heard more about demoscene stuff on PS4? I know that Sony did a thing at Assembly this year. But searching for demoscene and Playstation brings up almost no results and nothing for PS4.

There is no demoscene content for PS4 for a simple reason: the platform is closed as are most consoles and will stay so for quite a long time. Devkits are expensive and devtools aren't available for everyone. There are many sceners working in gamedev but what they do at work doesn't translate to their hobby (like you mentioned, the Assembly presentation done by Smash as he actually works for Sony). You need to sign NDAs and the code is strictly controlled. It's not the way demoscene works.

As far as .detuned and Linger in Shadows are concerned, they were both Sony-funded. Sony reached some demoscene groups back in the beginnings of PS3. Unfortunately, the project was then limited to 3 groups (Sony financial problems back in 2007-8) and one of them failed to release while Farbrausch and Plastic finally succeeded. I worked on LIS and it was successful so Plastic released another title: Datura but it's more a game than a scene thing.

Originally Posted by PolarGamer

I even looked at www.pouet.net, the most active scene forum I can find, but no luck there either. This seems like a dud, but I'm still hoping.

Funny thing because I just stopped reading GAF and went straight to Pouet to see your post and went back here :). Getting demoscene on PS4 would be awesome but we won't see that unless Sony makes it really easy for indies/sceners to code for the console, without the need for NDAs and providing free or really cheap devtools. And this simultaneously means making it easy for hackers to crack the console, even if it's just a common misconception that "scene" (hackers) and "demoscene" are the same people, which hasn't been true for years.

I wonder how much is Yoshida aware of demoscene and those PS3 projects I mentioned. We also don't know future Sony plans for the indie content (current indies still have NDAs and their assets are subject to a lot of scrutiny). Sony's approach to demoscene this gen was what convinced me to buy a PS3. With all the goodies of PS4 (easy development, power, x86), it'd be a blast to have scene prods on it. As for Microsoft, their "every console is a devkit" idea is great but I'm really puzzled how they are going to protect their business when they open the system to everybody.

Meanwhile, you can search the Pouet database of demos for other platforms. There's plenty of DS goodies, some PS2 and PSP stuff. I also remember an X360 demo at Breakpoint a few years ago, not to mention crazy stuff like Pokemon Mini and Atari 2600 demos (some as current as this year).

Being a demoscener , (maybe known from my recent gfx on the Sega Megadrive demo Overdrive *cough* ) i love demo's on consoles. but just as mentioned in the pouet thread, its hard because of all locked down hardware, we demosceners tend to work on stuff without being monitored from big companies, want no money for it, as its all our hobby.

(of course, recognition and prices like hardware or even money on demoscene-parties are very welcome ;)

But that being said, the guys of .plastic (linger in shadows) and farbrausch (.detuned) did a fantastic job!

I really appreciate Sony for attracting this. Microsoft still looks at them as dirty hackers for the most part.

i wonder how many guys know how much the demscene is waved into the gaming-industry, as DICE and Remedy all started as demo-groups long before their hit games.

But if Naughty Dog can receive 140 or so PS4 devkits in one shipment, sending 140+ kits to demo groups around the world should also be possible ;) I cannot see how this would lead to hacking.

Of course it's possible but what would be the benefit for Sony if those people weren't contracted to write stuff for PS4? Demoscene stuff has very little commercial value because, well, it's not aimed at commerce. Just giving devkits away is a waste really. Demos are made by groups of 3-5 people in free time. Games require tenfolds of that. And you can do it on a PC right here and now, without limitations.

By the way, Naughty Dog also has quite a few people with demoscene background.

Holy shit, could you imagine what Farbrausch could do if given access to code "to the metal" (ugh) on PS4? Full-time devs would spend years catching up to them.

Not even that... just eye candy.

I'm not sure about "themes" and contests etc. That would imply that they'd unleash the feature out for everyone and their dog to use. I'm picturing more maybe 10-15 big-name demoscene groups (I have no idea how many AAA ones are out there now, it's been a while since I dipped my toe in that particular pool) who have free reign to do whatever they want.

I'll paste some examples of what I know to be fine demos. Keep in mind that the modern ones are all intended to run at 60fps, but you know... Youtube.Future Crew - Second Reality (according to the comments, it's just hit it's 20th anniversary. TWENTY YEARS AGO. FWIW a 486 could run this quite comfortably. And done by 5 or 6 guys who did it for fun. They later became Remedy :) (PS. No 3D cards and they weren't professional coders/developers)Farbrausch - .the .product From 2000, this is a 64 kilobyte demo! Incredible.Future Crew - Unreal (1992)

Some great replies here (and a few on pouet). I guess it's not surprising that coders are not thinking about the PS4 or Xbox One very much at this stage

They're pretty boring platforms from a demoscene standpoint I assume. The console scene is more interested in unusual architectures and pushing low power hardware, and the PC scene would feel so much at home that they can simply continue to code for PC.

I'd thought pretty much the same regarding the PS4, given Sony's previous involvement with scene groups, though I was thinking of tweeting Shahid instead of Shu. Good to know such a high-up executive is in the know.

I also think these platforms should be pretty attractive to sceners, especially PC ones that are used to be not so close to the metal nowadays with DX and GL.

Being a demoscener , (maybe known from my recent gfx on the Sega Megadrive demo Overdrive *cough* ) i love demo's on consoles. but just as mentioned in the pouet thread, its hard because of all locked down hardware, we demosceners tend to work on stuff without being monitored from big companies, want no money for it, as its all our hobby.

(of course, recognition and prices like hardware or even money on demoscene-parties are very welcome ;)

But that being said, the guys of .plastic (linger in shadows) and farbrausch (.detuned) did a fantastic job!

I really appreciate Sony for attracting this. Microsoft still looks at them as dirty hackers for the most part.

i wonder how many guys know how much the demscene is waved into the gaming-industry, as DICE and Remedy all started as demo-groups long before their hit games.

Holy fucking shit dude, that was impressive as all hell, I never even knew MD demoing was as evolved as that. Your gfx are wild, too! And of course, the effects they were transposed onto ;)

I'm gonna sound like Grandpa Simpsons but I really used to follow the demo scene stuff back in early-to-late '90, and I always felt that the demoscene lost its appeal on PC when 3d accelerators and direct x and all this kind of stuff started being used.

I mean, demo competitions still have (had?) categories for older hardware, but while I'm not discounting the skills of modern demos, the fact that old demos ran without accelerations and real special hardware support made them more impressive.

The demo scene on the C64 became particularly renowned because they pulled off the most amazing feats on such old hardware, due to their "coding to the metal", as the expression is nowadays. As if Sony and Microsoft are going to let any one with an interest in doing that stuff get anywhere near that close to their machines.

Of course it's possible but what would be the benefit for Sony if those people weren't contracted to write stuff for PS4? Demoscene stuff has very little commercial value because, well, it's not aimed at commerce. Just giving devkits away is a waste really.

Watch Starstruck :) and if you want to know what effects are possibly coming to a PS4 in near future, Apocalypse When.

Sony is giving devkits to indie devs hand over fist. They probably won´t make much money for Sony at first, but at least they get a good relationship with the company and experience coding for it. The same could be said for demo coders (who you already have showed are making some games). I know my argument is not super strong, but hey. If enough people ask for it, maybe something can happen.

Sony is giving devkits to indie devs hand over fist. They probably won´t make much money for Sony at first, but at least they get a good relationship with the company and experience coding for it. The same could be said for demo coders (who you already have showed are making some games). I know my argument is not super strong, but hey. If enough people ask for it, maybe something can happen.

You're right. They could give devkits as prizes at demoparties. DICE sponsored Revision in Germany this year. NVidia sponsored our Polish WeCan party which finished just yesterday. They gave away a couple of Titans, just like that. Sony could do that too. The industry is aware of the demoscene but most gamers aren't.

Yes, that would indeed be awesome. A PSN demo-party perhaps, with people voting, and with some prizes for the winners, etc? Why not. I loved Linger in Shadows, deTuned wasn't as good, but still pretty nice.

Originally Posted by Stike

In about 2008, when the trophy update was coming, the demo scene production "Linger In Shadows" had been published as an interactive experiment on PSN. Yeah, the port was kinda weak, the interactivity was low and you had almost no idea what was going on anyway, but hell, it was a demo turned into an interactive video.

What do yo mean by "port was kind of weak". LiS was a port of something?

What do yo mean by "port was kind of weak". LiS was a port of something?

LIS engine (called pico) was ported from PC and then a lot of work was put in to make it run well on PS3. It was back in the times when Cell was a painful mistery with most of docs only in Japanese and even the big dev teams had problems trying to figure anything out.

He also works for Sony Europe in that team that does R&D for graphics libraries etc.

Tanks, and thanks to FeiRR who also linked to Apocalypse When and the awesome Amiga 1200 demo. With some tweaks it would make for a bitchin' Mustang commercial.

Originally Posted by shuri

I'm gonna sound like Grandpa Simpsons but I really used to follow the demo scene stuff back in early-to-late '90, and I always felt that the demoscene lost its appeal on PC when 3d accelerators and direct x and all this kind of stuff started being used.

I mean, demo competitions still have (had?) categories for older hardware, but while I'm not discounting the skills of modern demos, the fact that old demos ran without accelerations and real special hardware support made them more impressive.

I feel the same way. Coding for closed hardware is when you truly can see the breakthroughs step by step, year by year. With PCs I find it's very hard to compare productions. I remember the Amiga dudes producing more and more shadebobs or whatever was in vogue at the time :)

Tanks, and thanks to FeiRR who also linked to Apocalypse When and the awesome Amiga 1200 demo. With some tweaks it would make for a bitchin' Mustang commercial.

I feel the same way. Coding for closed hardware is when you truly can see the breakthroughs step by step, year by year. With PCs I find it's very hard to compare productions. I remember the Amiga dudes producing more and more shadebobs or whatever was in vogue at the time :)

Do you think Yoshida knew what was being referred to in that tweet, though? I'd hope like hell he would, but I'm confident a dude like Shahid Ahmad (who has been the indie champion of the PS4/Vita) does.

Hell, I know one of the guys making Assault Android Cactus, and I think said mate has spoken with him. I don't know if the AAC guy knows about the demoscene, but I might hit him up, see if he knows.

I just really think that the demoscene could work wonders on something like PS4. Almost picturing a platform/catalog a la that music video thing they do on PS3... it's free (but with the odd ad or something) and you can download a raft of things that could show off your home theatre system AND PS4 to your mates. Regardless of the level of access they could give coders (whilst they might not give them the access something like back in the day, I don't believe sceners these days "code to the metal" of a PC, do they? Pretty sure they still use Windows and whatever DLLs it comes with) it'd have to be better to have people doing it solely for passion and recognition than just trying to push a product and make some money.

They link to this thread (and one I started on Pouet) and show the Fairlight demo with the car and the dust, yes. If you dig a downer just read the comments section.

Hm. Anyway, I still reckon there's a market for this, just like there's a market for indie titles and that music video channel. Hell, majority of people gladly sacrifice gameplay for good looking games anyway, why not provide the ability to download them easily? Especially if similar restrictions are applied for said market (but perhaps a little bigger, like 10mb, 50mb and 100mb total download or something).

Fuck, I hope Sony could run with this. I have a sneaking suspicion they will, or do something kinda similar.

Hm. Anyway, I still reckon there's a market for this, just like there's a market for indie titles and that music video channel. Hell, majority of people gladly sacrifice gameplay for good looking games anyway, why not provide the ability to download them easily? Especially if similar restrictions are applied for said market (but perhaps a little bigger, like 10mb, 50mb and 100mb total download or something).

Well, you can watch almost any demo on PS3/PS4/Vita because majority of them are captured into AVI and put on Youtube and other streaming services. I know it's a workaround though. I have an Android app which is a catalogue of links for Youtube of Amiga demos. Something like that on PS4 would be nice. If Sony give dev tools for PS4 apps to people, maybe somebody will do it.

Another problem about commercializing demos is that all demoscene stuff is free. You can download, copy and spread it without any limits provided you don't ask money for that. It's one of the pillars of the ideology. I remember a discussion on Pouet when Plastic got a permission from Sony to show Linger in Shadows at Breakpoint party before the official unveil to gamers. It was just a presentation but people complained that a commercial thing was shown as a demo.

Well, you can watch almost any demo on PS3/PS4/Vita because majority of them are captured into AVI and put on Youtube and other streaming services. I know it's a workaround though. I have an Android app which is a catalogue of links for Youtube of Amiga demos. Something like that on PS4 would be nice. If Sony give dev tools for PS4 apps to people, maybe somebody will do it.

Another problem about commercializing demos is that all demoscene stuff is free. You can download, copy and spread it without any limits provided you don't ask money for that. It's one of the pillars of the ideology. I remember a discussion on Pouet when Plastic got a permission from Sony to show Linger in Shadows at Breakpoint party before the official unveil to gamers. It was just a presentation but people complained that a commercial thing was shown as a demo.

Problem #1: Youtube = 30fps.
Problem #2: Bandwidth/compression artifacts/non-interactivity (if interactivity was a thing groups would want to implement)
Problem #3: I don't think "commercialising" demos was ever condoned in this thread. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm more of the mind that Sony would give devkits to groups, groups develop stuff, Sony puts on the marketplace for free like a kind of "channel" (not unlike the music video streaming thing they have) and people download it. The sceners get their name out there, Sony gets to almost "audition" potential developers, the public gets free eyecandy to show off their latest purchase to mates (that may well in-turn sell more consoles). And of course, stoners get something trippy to watch when they can't be fucked controlling anything ;)

Problem #1: Youtube = 30fps.
Problem #2: Bandwidth/compression artifacts/non-interactivity (if interactivity was a thing groups would want to implement)
Problem #3: I don't think "commercialising" demos was ever condoned in this thread. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm more of the mind that Sony would give devkits to groups, groups develop stuff, Sony puts on the marketplace for free like a kind of "channel" (not unlike the music video streaming thing they have) and people download it. The sceners get their name out there, Sony gets to almost "audition" potential developers, the public gets free eyecandy to show off their latest purchase to mates (that may well in-turn sell more consoles). And of course, stoners get something trippy to watch when they can't be fucked controlling anything ;)

And 4: Running on original hardware is important to feeling of the whole experience. You know your machine is gasping for air being (hopefully) pushed beyond ridiculusness. You also know that no post processing or whatever is done to the final result.

Originally Posted by elektrixx

There's enough indie junk as it is.

I'm guessing you don't know much about scene demos then if you call it "indie junk".

Interactivity isn't a demoscene thing. It also increases the development time by a magnitude.

Originally Posted by Shaneus

Problem #3: I don't think "commercialising" demos was ever condoned in this thread. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm more of the mind that Sony would give devkits to groups, groups develop stuff, Sony puts on the marketplace for free like a kind of "channel" (not unlike the music video streaming thing they have) and people download it. The sceners get their name out there, Sony gets to almost "audition" potential developers, the public gets free eyecandy to show off their latest purchase to mates (that may well in-turn sell more consoles). And of course, stoners get something trippy to watch when they can't be fucked controlling anything ;)

People have lives and hobbies (for example, they may want to play video games after work ;). At some point in the past we thought that getting sponsors and awesome prizes guarantees a huge flow of demos but we were wrong. You give away NVidia Titans and get about 10 people participating. Why? Because they already have good jobs and can afford it. Also doing it for tangible benefits becomes work, not pleasure.

Offtopic: If you want a trippy experience, I recommend PixelJunk's 4 a.m.

Originally Posted by PolarGamer

And 4: Running on original hardware is important to feeling of the whole experience. You know your machine is gasping for air being (hopefully) pushed beyond ridiculusness. You also know that no post processing or whatever is done to the final result.

You'd be surprised how many people watch demos on Youtube. To be a true "realtime" demoscener, you need an equivalent of an enthusiast-level PC rig, not to speak about other platforms: a fully equipped Amiga costs about as much. I know what I just wrote above but don't get an impression that every scener (or demo watcher) is a programmer. It'd also make demos on consoles awesome because they're so affordable.

I'd actually like to see many scene groups "back catalogue" bundled together and released as collections; for instance groups like ASD and FR have created some fantastic stuff over the years that it'd be nice to have in all one place.

Porting the code to PS4 shouldn't be too difficult given that its just another x86 box, although I suspect the lower clocked cores could be problematic in getting a good result.