In the corners of the Internet, there's a festering movement of men coaching each other to believe that men are oppressed because they don't have sexual control over women's bodies. (Finger on keyboard via Shutterstock)

In many ways, the argument that women should be fully equal to men has won in the public discourse. Sure, a lot of people still fight against equality, but they often pretend that it’s about something else—fetal life, religious liberty, women’s “choice” to make less money—because even they know openly stating the belief that women are a subclass of people put here to serve men tends not to go over very well with a general audience. Women’s education rates and income are going up. Violence against women is going down. The attacks on reproductive rights are escalating, but that’s in part in response to the fact that women themselves, especially younger women, are increasingly comfortable with the belief that they are the decider when it comes to what happens to their uterus.

However, there’s one growing trend that, while it’s hard to really get an idea of its size, should be a cause for concern: The number of men online creating communities dedicated to advancing the plain old, unvarnished misogynist belief that men deserve to control women. On “men’s rights” forums and “revenge porn” sites, groups of men are gathering together to find reinforcement for the plain old abusive belief that women who make their own choices about who to sleep with and who to marry are evil, and that allowing women this most basic of freedom is somehow oppressive to men. That there are many men who feel this way is no big surprise, particularly to anyone who knows the extent of domestic violence in this country, violence that is usually rooted in just this belief about male entitlement over women’s bodies. But the fact that they have found each other online and are pumping each other up and feeling more and more empowered by the minute in their ludicrous beliefs should be a major cause for concern.

Two stories from this week show exactly how true it is that these communities are about crafting the belief that women “oppress” men by wanting to be the masters of our own bodies instead of ceding that control over to men. In California, Attorney General Kamala Harris announced the arrest of Kevin Bollaert, who is being hit with 31 charges of conspiracy, identity theft, and extortion for running a “revenge porn” site. “Revenge porn” is a nasty little subset of the Internet where men take naked pictures they usually obtained during the course of a consensual relationship, and they post them against a woman’s will in order to humiliate and harass her. Often, as was the case with Bollaert’s site, the woman’s name, location, and social media information is also provided so that the men who use the site can more effectively harass her.

The name “revenge porn” really points to the fact that this is about establishing the claim that men own women, and women do not get to say no. The men justify putting up the pictures as a form of “revenge.” Revenge for what? Well, usually for something as simple as dumping him. In some cases, the men try to beef up their claim of a right to vengeance by citing cheating or some other relationship infraction. It doesn’t really matter. You have a right to dump someone if they cheat on you, but the belief that you are “owed” the right to “revenge” by stalking and humiliating them is rooted in the belief that you own them and their bodies, and what they choose to do with their bodies somehow is a violation of your rights. While there are (reportedly) a few “revenge porn” pictures of men floating out there, by and large this is a violation enacted by men on women, and reinforced by an Internet community that assures these men they deserve to hurt and abuse women because those women are making choices with their own lives of which the men do not approve.

Similarly, David Futrelle of the site Man Boobz, which is set up to track and mock the “men’s rights” movement, recently discovered that the site A Voice For Men (AVFM) was debating what cover Warren Farrell, who is a sort of godfather to the movement, should put on his e-book arguing that, contrary to feminist claims, it’s men who are the real oppressed gender. All three cover ideas were of sexy women. Paul Elam, the site’s founder, explained the idea behind putting a sexy woman on the cover of a book arguing that men are oppressed: “Imagine the juxtaposition of the title, “Myth of Male Power” over one of these images. The cover alone will challenge the idea of male power in men and women alike on a gut level.”

The argument, which went over like gangbusters on the website, couldn’t be more obvious: Men are oppressed because there are women they find sexually attractive who are sexually unavailable. And that this is the real oppression, and not all that feminist jibber-jabber about rape, domestic violence, abortion bans, and pay inequity. Indeed, that women are actively oppressing men because women don’t accede to demands to have sex with any man just because he wants it.

Now, it’s worth pointing out that there’s no website where women are arguing they’re oppressed because they can’t snap their fingers and have Alexander Skaasrsgard or Ryan Gosling waiting in bed for them. For the anger and vitriol and whining at AVFM to make any sense, you have to assume that men are the rightful owners of women’s bodies. The right of a woman to determine when she has sex and with whom is perceived in these circles as a theft by women of something that rightfully belongs to men. Without this sense that they’re entitled to have sex with a woman regardless of her opinion of the matter, the anger and rage and sense of “oppression” at the mere sight of a woman’s sexualized body makes no kind of sense at all.

Again, there’s nothing new about men who have it into their heads that they are entitled to control women and women are somehow oppressing them by declining sex or declining a relationship with them. Every day women are stalked, raped, and beaten in this country by men who use physical and sexual violence as a form of control over women. The problem here is that these online communities have become refuges for men who want to retain this belief in opposition to a culture that’s rapidly embracing the idea that the owner of a woman’s body really can only be the woman herself. It allows these angry men to coach each other to believe that they’re fighting against a big, mean world that’s stealing the female flesh they’re entitled to control, and to persist with the delusion that they’re oppressed because they can’t have everything they want. As with the increasing attacks on reproductive rights, it would do feminists well to know that women’s increasing control over our own bodies is going to face opposition, and be prepared for a long and ugly fight.

Honestly, we should stop giving them the kindness that is calling them “Men’s Rights Groups”. They are that in the sense that they stand for men’s entitlement at women’s expense, but they’ve done nothing to help men in actual need of assistance. They’re just the gender equivalent to the KKK: an online hate group targeted at women. We should treat them like we would treat any other hate group that targets and tries to hurt people online.

fiona64

They’re just the gender equivalent to the KKK: an online hate group targeted at women.

I wholeheartedly concur.

The reality is that these men are scared little boys … scared of losing their perceived hegemony.

Ed

At what point do you think men felt they had hegemony? How could a man born in the past 40 years be under that impression? I think your arguments are dishonest and primarily rooted in your own hatred towards men. You don’t understand them so you negatively stereotype them. This is is more like the KKK mindset than men suggesting men and boys have unmet needs.

We should be applauding men willing to show their vulnerability instead of attacking them. It’s attacks like that which cause men to hide their pain. So often that pain comes out in aggression since it’s one of the few emotions we are willing to tolerate from men without labeling them weak or unworthy of love.

“The reality is that these men are scared little boys”

Racists whites used to call black men “boys” as a means of emasculation. You are doing that now so check yourself.

colleen2

I don’t believe that guys like you will ever feel that way. I just wish you would seek therapy. Every time y’all post it’s SO obvious why your wives divorced you. Nobody in their right mind would stay married to you, you’re an embarrassment to decent men everywhere.

Murphy

As I’ve said elsewhere here, what makes you think all MRAs are men? Half the editorial board of AVFM are women; Karen Straughan, Diana Davison, Alison Tieman etc.

L-dan

You realize that no feminist ever has said that women don’t uphold the patriarchy too, right? You’re on a site that gets forced birth trolls of both genders waltzing in regularly to tell other women what they must do with their bodies. I think we’re pretty solidly aware of the phenomenon.

colleen2

Ann Coulter and Sarah Palin are also women.

fiona64

You and Murphy are doing a fabulous job of proving my point …

Murphy

What makes you think all MRAs are men?

marcetienne

You obviously don’t know anything about the men’s rights movement, just like the author doesn’t. I’ve been a men’s rights activist for over 10 years. I’m also a progressive, socialist leaning human rights activist. Men’s rights is about equal rights. Period. It is about equal rights for fathers in child custody, equal rights for male victims of domestic and sexual violence, due process rights for the falsely accused, prosecuting false accusers, equal rights in public benefits, military draft policies, etc. etc. It took MRAs in Israel to get the United Nations to chastise Israel for its systematic discrimination against fathers via the “tender years” doctrine. It took MRAs in Germany to get the UN to end Germany’s law denying unmarried fathers any custody rights absent mom’s consent. It took MRAs in Africa and elsewhere to get governments to include battered men in their policies. I had to sue the State of California on behalf o 4 battered men who were denied state-funded services because they were men, and finally the Court of Appeal held the discriminatory law – which was written by feminist groups – unconstitutional. Men’s rights is about equal rights. If you oppose men’s rights, you oppose equal rights. It is that simple.

Ineedacoffee

Im female and agree totally that there are mens issues that need correcting and equality for all in general

Sad thing is though its the vocal lot that go on about women being lesser beings, should be back in the kitchen obeying the men that right now have the louder voice. They dont want equal rights for all, they want to be ‘top dog’ so to speak

goatini

You should read some our MRA visitor’s comments on other boards… he’s the same as the rest of them.

Ineedacoffee

Oh I dont doubt at all, I was just pointing out while yeah there are mens issues its the vocal bunch of whack jobs that people hear and while thats all people hear they wont listen at all to legitimate issues

Ed

If whack jobs stopped people from listening to valid causes then where would civil rights in America be? Those speaking were always labeled the whack jobs by an establishment that didn’t want change. I think you need to use a historic lens here to avoid repeating past mistakes. At some point people wake up and justice is done. You are positioning yourself to be on the wrong side of history.

If they have legit issues that is all that matters. People with legit issues will eventually seek and get redress no matter how long it takes.

TheBrett

Yeah, I read some of his comments. He trots out some of the usual canards, like false rape accusations (extremely rare) and “women complaining about rape after getting drunk and having sex”.

colleen2

I agree with you about circumcision but these are MRM’s, they blame male circumcision on women and use it as an opportunity to whine and rage.

MRM’s are focused on dominating and demeaning women. It’s how they bond with each other. They aren’t focused on making the lives of men and boys better. The men and women who try to make the lives of men and boys better do not vote Republican.

voodooidol

We don’t blame circumcision on any gender. I have no idea where you’re getting that from.

logic11

Much of the MRM is actually left leaning, hell, many of us are downright socialist (not me though, I’m way left of socialist). The idea that the MRM is a right-republican group tells me that you know almost nothing about us.

logic11

Question: How rare are false rape accusations? What percentage do you think are false? I’m not saying they are, I’m saying I don’t know.

The second link there states the number of false accusations (not unfounded, false) as 45% – neither is an authoritative source, because there isn’t one. The FBI says unfounded is at around 8% (far, far higher than other crimes) but they are working off of rapes they investigate. There are people who accept between 2 and 8 percent are false, but even that would put the number at a much higher rate than any comparable crime. Greer posits a much, much higher rate, and the innocence project has had more rape cases turn out to be bad than any other crime (this was largely due to DNA evidence becoming available in those cases, so these are not cases of a false rape accusation, but of the wrong person being imprisoned, it is unclear if the actual rape is real or not, and in most cases, the rape is probably a real rape, just not by the person convicted).

Rape is a very, very tricky subject from a criminal justice perspective. It’s one where the evidence of who did it and the evidence that a crime was committed at all are often not the same.

Kyle Rybski

Strange how nearly one in ten is ” extremely rare”.

goatini

Just as rare as any other false accusation. FACT.

logic11

Can you back that up? I ask because everything else seems to indicate you are wrong (the most generous stat, the FBI’s puts unfounded accusations of rape at 4 times that of say, theft). Most sources seem to indicate that yes, false rape accusations are more common than for other crimes, but that they are still a small percentage – there are however some sources that seem to indicate that it’s a much more common thing than all that, with the highest (and clearly very suspect) stat being 45%. The stat that it is 2% is actually not backed up by anything (and again, that stat is higher than for most crimes, since that’s the average unfounded rate, not the average false accusation rate). If you have sources for your fact I would love to read them (I actually prefer to be wrong in debate, as it means I have learned something).

Ed

“Sad thing is though its the vocal lot that go on about women being lesser beings, should be back in the kitchen obeying the men that right now have the louder voice.”

Do you have anymore straw men because this is utterly unrealistic? Any man born in the past 40 years is predisposed towards wanting women to work. You need to read some polls or stats on employment. We have about 1/4 of men 20-34 are living with their parents. Simply put men today are in no position to support women nor do they desire to do so.

“The number of young adults ages 20 to 34 who lived with their parents jumped from 17% in 1980 to 24% in 2007-09 — the ‘Great Recession— according to a detailed analysis out today.

– USA Today

“They dont want equal rights for all, they want to be ‘top dog’ so to speak”

That’s what you want and you’re projecting. It’s you who are threatened by vulnerable men speaking about their pain just as women did in the past. Let’s not be selfish. We are not entitled to demand only our own gender’s pain be recognized. Men have changed over the decades but people like you are stuck on outdated stereotypes. Those ideas are nasty hateful things that do nothing to advance humanity or reveal the truth about men or human nature.

logic11

How much of the MRM have you actually interacted with? It sounds very much like you are interacting with the folks at the red pill and thinking they are MRM’s. It is two different movements, and they are identified very, very differently. The MRM does contain a few traditionalists, but they are relatively rare. Most of the MRM actually focuses on mens rights issues. That doesn’t mean we are pro feminist, but we are by and large pro equality. An example is fighting for funding for boys in elementary school. Boys are doing far, far worse than girls at that level, and some study as to why would be great (especially if that study didn’t assume that boys just need to be more like girls to succeed, but instead looked at how the system can work with boys).

L-dan

And those are hardly the folks being called out in the article above. Even the posters here noted that it’s a pity that the folks fighting for legitimate men’s issues tend to be drowned out by the guys who think that ‘not getting laid’ is a legitimate gender issue (vs. an individual one).

We don’t have a problem with more research to look at things like that, but the article didn’t either, so I have to wonder about the flood of MRAs dumping here. I mean Expat there is kind of the sort of troll who does exactly the sort of drowning out of real issues that posters here bemoaned before the flood showed up.

Kyle Rybski

I don’t understand how you think they’re being drowned, though. The ratio you seem to be implying is precisely the opposite of what I’ve noticed.

logic11

Think about this… there was an equation of AVFM with revenge porn sites. I’m not a big reader of AVFM, and I’m not a huge fan of Elam (nor do I hate him, I think he has some good points of view, and some ones I don’t like as much). Thing is, Marcotte used revenge porn (something most of the MRM is solidly against) and the MRM as if they were the same thing. She also seemed to think that using the image of an attractive woman on the cover of a book is equal to taking private video of your ex and uploading it to the internet and profiting off of it. Quick news flash – pictures of attractive men are used on book covers with huge frequency, and in fact for the most part equivalent images of women are actually off limits.

AVFM has both good and bad points, it’s mixed, much like the MRM as a whole. We allow for a very, very wide variety of voices. It’s actually part of the ideology that seems to be prevalent in the movement, that silencing is the worst thing you can do.

sKoo

That’s awesome. I think ideally, that’s what I thought men’s rights to be, but clearly there are people who are claiming to be doing things in the name of men’s rights which is giving it a bad name. Men and women should be working together to get equal rights for everyone

goatini

So, do you support women’s rights – and furthermore, understand that until the 20th century, females basically had the same rights as livestock and other property of males?

Ed

I think you confuse being female with slavery. That’s insulting the suffering of slaves under slavery. They were brought and sold as property on the open market not married to their ‘owner’ who was obligated to support them for life. I have a real problem with your analogy and it’s racially insensitive considering our history or shall I say MY HISTORY!

Schadenfreuden

You do realise that 500,000 white people from Europe were taken as slaves in the middle ages don’t you? Mostly by North Africans and Arabs. It wasn’t just the sin of one race.

CT14

You understand what chattel is?

Women have been chattel for most of our combined history.

L-dan

Since you’re the one bringing up slavery, I’d say that’s a bit of a strawman there. It’s not slavery, nor was CT14 saying it was, but it certainly wasn’t a position of equality. Care to address the point instead of pretending you see an argument that’s not actually there.

grantal

but it was men who decided that women were to be owned in the first place. Men only have themselves to blame on that one. maybe it was considered the only thing to do at the time. I don’t know was not there thank God!

logic11

I think that if you look at the historical roots of that they are quite a bit different than you think. Originally life was pretty hard, pretty brutal… people killed each other a lot. Men were less important to the survival of the group, so they were the ones who were out trying to kill or be killed. Women were far more important, so they had to be protected. That inevitably resulted in a lot of women losing their autonomy (it is easier to protect someone if you can control their actions). That trend continued, and even got enshrined in religion. As we have become safer and less inclined to struggle that very much weakened, and now the main bastions of attempting to control women are religions. If we ditch religion we will have eliminated almost everyone who still believes that women do not deserve to be equal (most of the MRM does in fact believe that women should be equal)

Murphy

“females basically had the same rights as livestock”

Rubbish.

fiona64

No, it isn’t. I suggest you look up a little something called coverture law.

CT14

Citation that women were able to own property?

Clue: you’re not going to find it until recent history.

logic11

Depends on what societies you look at. The vikings actually gave women far more rights than most of Europe. You want to see true misogyny, look at the Inuit people, or most stone age cultures. Women also tend to have less rights in more religious cultures. As we get more secular and less dependent on raw strength to feed ourselves women get more rights. At this point in North America it could be argued that from a legal standpoint women have more rights than men.

voodooidol

When were women allowed to own property? Compare that to when non-white men were allowed to own property.

When you do this comparison your argument falls apart as total rubbish.

Murphy

Women certainly WERE able to own property. As a simple example, William Shakespeare’s wife Anne Hathaway was a very wealthy woman. Couverture isn’t as well-accepted a legal doctrine as you think, a lot of people think Blackstone got that one wrong.

logic11

Personally I support women having exactly the same rights as men, at least anywhere that makes sense. In cases where a right doesn’t make sense for both, come up with something fair (for example: the right to an abortion is one that needs to be granted to women, and even discussing it makes no sense for men – it would be an equal legal right to deny abortions, but not an equal moral right in any way)

JamieHaman

What a shame you couldn’t bother to address a single one of the issue mentioned in the article.

goatini

Except that up until the 20th century, MEN had ALL the RIGHTS.

bear48624862

and today they don’t. Your point is? Sounds like you want to punish men.

fiona64

Other people getting rights does not mean your rights have been curtailed.

Thanks for proving my point about hegemony …

CT14

Why do you see other human beings having rights as taking rights away from men?

Unless you think men have the right to own and control women, it’s not a zero-sum game.

Tom

While you’re at it, you might also wipe out the “white race” for the slaveships 400 years ago… sort of the same bullshit than what you’re on about…

logic11

No. Some men had all the rights. Men always made up both the top and the bottom of society, and this is still largely true, although we have less representation on the top and more on the bottom these days.

TheBrett

Not these guys. Elam and his ilk have done nothing to help men in situations of battering, abuse, or custody rights. They just complain about women and plan on how to harass them online.

CT14

Really? Please defend the positions of your fellow MRAs, like MGTOW.

Or say even the MRAs listed in the article above.

Because what most MRA groups want has absolutely nothing to do with equality. Go follow Man Boobz links to MRA sites to see the hatred you’re claiming is really just about equality.

logic11

A huge thing that people don’t seem to get about the MRM is the issue of censorship. The MRM for the most part is anti-censorship. It means that we have people who say some incredibly stupid shit… but so does feminism (Dworkin, Solanas). If you want to judge the MRM by those voices then I get to judge feminism by people like Solanas. You could also use voices like girlwriteswhat, hell, myself (logic11 on reddit) etc. There are many, many people in the MRM with many viewpoints, it’s a fractious conflicted group (as is feminism) with no clear leader or standard viewpoint.

grantal

When women of all cultures and races if, or ever get “equal rights” then so will men. Until that happens the war continues. I think it is up to men to start seeing women as equals and not as subhuman as has been written in most history books and in the Bible.( We have been shamed and blamed for everything on earth.) Women have been degraded since the beginning of time and men have basically run everything with compensation. It is going to take years of healing on both sides for anything to change.

Tanya Nguyễn

The most recent two articles on menzboobz were comments explaining why the law against “requirement for sexual relations in marriage” (what we all call RAPE) is the core reason for marriages to fail.

um…. seriously boys?

Matt Amaral

If you take manboobz seriously, ever, you’re doing it wrong. That site exists for the sole purpose of strawmanning MRAs. Kind of like this article, actually…

L-dan

Strawmanning…by actually quoting their stuff and linking to their sites? Sorry, I’ve read in those places, and it’s sort of hard to take you seriously with this sort of defense.

Kyle Rybski

I bet your impression of Reddit is formed by ShitRedditSays, too. How do you not see the problem with this?

Manboobz picks and chooses the worst of the worst. He does it on purpose. I have seen Futrelle pick one comment out of hundreds on a reddit thread, one which is downvoted to the point of invisibility, and hold that up as if it was representative of the movement as a whole (I have seen him do this many, many times).

CT14

Directly quoting and linking back to the context is not strawmanning.

It’s rather the opposite.

Deb Shaw

Men do have rights. They have the right to control their own bodies. Just like women do.

Ohone

Women have the right to sabotage or lie about birth control and take control of a non consensual fathers body for 18 years.

Thou_Art_Godel_icious

Use a condom anyway … problem fixed. If you don’t know the woman use a condom. At least pull out or just have oral sex or … Oh I see none of that came into you mind when you … uh …

Here is the exact same argument used against abortion. Use a condom, have him pull out or just have oral sex.

Anyhow, the point was that women have the legal right to take over male bodies for 18 years. So men and women do not have the same rights over their bodies, women have more and have rights over male bodies and lives.

Ohone

Point was that men and women do not have the same rights over their own bodies, women have significantly more. As for the condom / abstinence argument, its not any more convincing when you use it as when the anti abortion people do.

expect_resistance

And men don’t sabotage birth control? Oh I forgot, MRAs think men are the poor little victims. Get real and use a condom or don’t have sex if you don’t trust who you are having sex with.

Ed

“Get real and use a condom or don’t have sex if you don’t trust who you are having sex with.”

That’s victim blaming and the same thing anti abortion activists often say.

colleen2

It’s not victim blaming because helping to support your own children is not victimization. It’s what happens when men grow the fuck up.

logic11

Really? Even if your partner claimed to be on birth control and lied about it? Sure, you should probably use a condom anyway, but in a long term monogamous relationship that just isn’t at the kids stage, would you really always do that?

CT14

How is that victim blaming?

Do you expect other people–people whom you apparently don’t trust–to be responsible for your reproduction? Why?

How do you get to be a victim if you’ve taken absolutely no responsibility whatsoever?

You have a choice to wear a condom. It might fail, so you should probably get spermicide as well. A vasectomy would eliminate all worry about children or being victimized.

Refusing to take any responsibility AND also wanting to avoid any consequences from your failure to take responsibility is what is being mocked.

logic11

A vasectomy might or might be reversible, if you don’t want to have kids right now, but may want kids later that seem a bit drastic. Also, your partner lying about birth control is an asshole move.

expect_resistance

I’m not victim blaming. I’m not saying, “Don’t have sex AT ALL.” Did I say that? No. What’s wrong with using a condom? Is that hurtful to men? I guess I must be oppressing men if I tell them to use a condom.

Ohone

Men and women find their partners sabotaging it at roughly equal rates. The point was that women have more rights over their bodies than men, and women have some pretty extreme rights over male bodies. As for abstinence and condoms, the anti abortion crowd make the same arguments. Its not convincing from either side.

expect_resistance

“Men and women find their partners sabotaging it at roughly equal rates.” Source?

Women do not have more rights than men when it comes to pregnancy. Women have the right to bodily autonomy as do men. If a pregnancy occurs it’s in a woman’s body not a man’s body. Until men can get pregnant that won’t change. If a woman gets pregnant it’s her choice to continue a pregnancy or not. This IS NOT a man’s decision. If a man is concerned that a woman will sabotage the birth control then why would he have sex with her? Kind of dumb. I wouldn’t have sex with a man I think is poking holes in the condoms. And to make the accusation that a majority of women are tricking men into getting pregnant is stupid. Or to make the accusation that the majority of women are lying about the paternity of the children is misogynistic. You clearing have a low view of women.

LouLouVille.Com

You can’t seriously think that men never poke holes in condoms to try to hold on to a relationship?

Ohone

Don’t make false accusations. I never said that.

CDC data shows that men and women experience BC sabotage at similar rates, women slightly more often. Point is that when it happens to a man, the woman can take control of the his body for 18 years, when it happens to a woman, she has various options.

Guest

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Linnsey

This was a missed opportunity to actually hear what MRA’s are saying, in their own words. From reading various sites I agree with this article, but it’s more instructive if you use actual quotes rather than vague summaries.

colleen2

I’m pretty sure that anyone who wants to “actually hear what MRA’s are saying, in their own words” can easily find them online. They seem starved for attention and eager to browbeat and lie to any woman they come across. It’s not as if “actually hearing” what MRM’s have to say is a rare opportunity.

logic11

go to reddit, look up /r/mensrights to see what we are mostly saying. Keep in mind, we don’t believe in silencing, so there are some stupid things on there… try to look at which comments get upvoted and which ones don’t.

David No

Men want to ‘control women’ and are being encouraged to do so in the online world, eh?

Humm…

I’ll just leave these brief examples of the opposite, here…

How to Control Your Man: 6 Steps (with Pictures) – wikiHow

How to Control Your Boyfriend Without Him Knowing! Here Are the Tips You Should Read

How to Change Your Husband Back into the Man You Married | hitched

And no, as a member of the manosphere I do not believe, have never believed or will ever believe that men have the right to a woman’s body, or that men deserve to control women … but I also believe that as a man it is my right to live my life freely without interference, without anyone controlling me and that I to as a man should be able to go against the culturally accepted myths of what my gender should be and do, just as feminists did in their time.

The author seems to forget that men like us grew up in the feminist era, or more importantly, we were raised decently to believe in equality… that anything men can do, so can women, and vice versa and I believe that to my core. There are things that both men and women can do, some can do them well and some can’t for whatever reasons but bias should not be shown towards one simply for the sake of it.

The vicious accusations of misogyny and the inaccurate representation of our motivations is nothing I recognise within myself and certainly not to do with domestic violence.

I am a man of peace… I dislike violence against anyone whether it be a woman being hurt by a man or a man being caused physical violence by a woman, this accusation of social attitudes within the manosphere causing domestic violence is particularly ironic in the face of that episode of The View when Sharon Osbourne and audience actually found male genital dismemberment funny! And this was a mainstream television show not some ‘dark corner of the internet.’ Personally I was horrified, and think it a serious problem, that this expression of violence entitlement towards men was expressed so freely and in such a humorous context within the mainstream.

Here at MGTOW forums, though opinions can be aired on numerous subjects, the one thing we have zero tolerance towards is the expression of violence and the expression of a wish to cause harm, and rightly so! We, who are apparently ‘so dark and misogynistic and believe we are entitled to do what we want to a woman,’ have zero tolerance towards violence and that is not just ‘violent beliefs being held in check by forum rules’ I genuinely am horrified by it and would never wish to inflict it upon others… and yet the casual acceptance of actual violence towards men by women on The View doesn’t even get a mention…

The author is purposely attempting to create an emotional response of hatred towards the manosphere by suggesting an attitude that does not exist by attempting to portray that men who think outside of the cultural norms are supportive of violence. This is about as far from the truth as you can get! We are hideously misrepresented by this article!

But this is hardly surprising…

The simple truth is, that our revolution is here, as it were.

How far it goes is yet to be seen… it may not be the first time this has happened and MGTOW may not be anything new (just rebranded under a different name) but nonetheless, here we are… societies fairness scales seem always to be imbalanced, its either in favour of one gender, or the other… feminism tipped those scales back towards the centre, justly so and now we men are recognising that it has gone too far the other way and its time once again for the scales to be rebalanced.

I recognise nothing of the manosphere that I know, in this article…

goatini

So, does the fact that women had the same rights as livestock and other property of males – as in NONE – until the 20th century – ever occur to you? How about the fact that up until the 20th century, MEN had ALL the RIGHTS?

Any (actually) logical person can understand that the scales of historical institutionalized misogyny of millennia can in no way have “gone too far the other way” in less than 100 years. Only an MRA could possibly surmise something so completely impossible.

gbob101

I am gathering from your comments that past mistreatment of women means that it is OK to therefore mistreat males of today, who were raised in a different era, who never mistreated women, as if they, and the women of today. were alive 500 years ago.

goatini

The scales of historical institutionalized misogyny have, in actuality, moved only an iota in the last less-than-a-century towards parity for women.

Women had the same rights as livestock until the 20th century – as in, being nothing more than property of males.

logic11

That’s actually not true. They did not have the same rights as those males who had rights (which was not all males) but they did have some rights in most societies. Those rights may have been very circumscribed (yes, coventry law was a fucking nightmare in practice and was based on some stupid ideas) however women always had more rights than livestock. Slaves of either gender had far less rights than non-slave women. A male slave could be killed without issue, that was simply not true of a non-slave woman – there had to be reasons for it.

CT14

How does granting women rights mistreat men, unless you think owning women is a man’s right?

Ed

The gender ratio in higher education of 60:40 female to male speaks to a some imbalance in our attention at the least. Since we don’t see many campaigns to help boys I think they can assume we simply stopped caring about them. Men choosing to help women over men isn’t anything new. It’s very patriarchal.

CT14

Could it be because women are paid less and they know they need a higher education to make a livable wage–a salary that men could attain without a college degree?

logic11

That’s asinine and unsupported. The 77 cents on the dollar? That is not what you think it is. And no, men can’t achieve income parity without a college education to a woman who has one. If you really believe that you are probably delusional or severely uneducated. It’s true that until the 80’s a man who worked his ass off could make a decent living without college (of course that relied on physical ability, mostly strength and endurance) – however since the 80’s those jobs have been vanishing. They simply are being automated out of existence.

goatini

I’m wagering that you’re one of those types that thinks that “women have all the power because women have all the p*$$*”… which couldn’t be further from the actual truth.

Julian Morrison

Patriarchy causes women to need to control and manipulate men, because they aen’t allowed to act in their own right but must proxy through a male figurehead. What you are seeing here is the legacy of centuries of men oppressing women. There are still women who believe, as they were traditionally taught, that their way to wealth, fame, or social status is by attaching themselves to the “right” man, and controlling him. Yet again, the solution to a “men’s rights” problem is: more feminism. Women with the freedom to wield their own power do not need to control men.

Julian Morrison

When you put women in a position where the only realistic power they can have is through controlling a man, for centuries, you’ll find that they develop a culture of techniques to grasp that control (most of which don’t work – the patriarchy punishes attempts to use power through men, just as it punishes attempts to use power without men). The solution, as always to so called “men’s rights” problems, is feminism. Accept women with their own power. Stop getting in the way.

David No

I have to point out that you see attempts to control women by men as an example of male privilege, and you see attempts to control men by women…as an example of male privilege. This position is not based on any facts or logic. It’s unfalsifiable. There is literally no alternative reality that would convince you that you are wrong. Basically you’re a creationist.

I think we would agree on one thing though. Women need to be held responsible for their own actions. When a woman commits a crime, she should go to jail. When a woman gets a divorce, she should provide for herself. But feminism has been completely silent on these systemic biases. The post-feminist society has given women complete authority (good!) with zero responsibility (bad). This is irrational.

Ed

” The solution, as always to so called “men’s rights” problems, is feminism. Accept women with their own power. Stop getting in the way.”

The solution to men’s rights problems is men taking their problems seriously just like women do with their’s. They don’t need to care for women’s(activists) power unless women insist on using it to obstruct men seeking redress for their issues of inequality or general suffering.

The we solution to all the world’s problems is not giving women whatever they ask for nor is it giving that to men. We should be able to agree that helping those in real need or facing injustice is worthwhile regardless of gender. That’s the way to go. You might focus on those that suffer in one sex or another but who we help in the end should not be decided by gender.

The problem of some women’s activists is they are quite literally defending their victim privilege and are threatened by men recognizing their own suffering. This is a real problem and if they don’t change a lot of people are going to suffer for it.

Amanda is spot on with her article. No false accusations necessary the MRAs do that all to themselves.

Chad_Nine

Your article is a threat narrative in an attempt to silence criticism of feminism. Shameful.

marshmallow

Yes. Because revenge porn is valid criticism of feminism.

MRAlafayette

The fact that the two are in the same headline by some clickbait feminist troll is in no way indicative of any similarity of content.

logic11

Actually one of the biggest issues with this article is the conflation of revenge porn and the MRM. I don’t know anyone in the MRM who advocates in favour of revenge porn.

L-dan

“On “men’s rights” forums and “revenge porn” sites, groups of men are
gathering together to find reinforcement for the plain old abusive
belief that women who make their own choices about who to sleep with and
who to marry are evil, and that allowing women this most basic of
freedom is somehow oppressive to men. ”

So, drawing the comparison that people on both sites use arguments that betray similar beliefs about women is an invalid comparison? This is not the same as saying MRAs advocate for revenge porn.

I’ll grant that Amanda tends toward hyperbole. But it’s a valid comparison. Much like comparing the ideas on the louder MRM sites with those of the religious right who want women submissive and pure, or comparing the religious right and the Taliban.

expect_resistance

The “Men’s Rights Movement” is shameful. It’s hardly a critique of feminism or feminist theory.

Ivan

Wait, is this a new spewing grounds for this psycho’s misandric bile? The little rape troll gonna delete all the rational and opposing comments here as well?

Thou_Art_Godel_icious

Misogyny has been the law of the land for millenia. Misandry a made up concept like the “White Man’s Burden”.

Ivan

yeah you won the ‘argument’. have a cookie.

Amanda Marcotte

Ah, No True Scotsman. If you eliminate all the “not really MRAs” from the pool with these standards, none exist at all.

MRAlafayette

If you remove all the clickbait shitlords like yourself from feminism, maybe we could actually come to some agreement on what should be done about issues that plague us both. But instead, because of your incessant insistance that MRAs are misogynist, here we are. Participating in slacktivism, with myself behind a guise of anonymity because if I were to reveal myself as an MRA, i would be ridiculed as a man child. The fact that feminists are paraded as heros but mens activists are demonized is indicative of the paradigm shift from “patriarchy” to “matriarchy”. A long time ago.

expect_resistance

Many of us are well acquainted with what MRA groups think and do. So spare us the details.

MRAlafayette

And where do you get that information from? Real MRAs or from trolls luke Amanda who refuse to cite the actual facts and who enjoy making sweeping generalizations about a movement?

fiona64

You guys condemn yourselves with your own words …

MRAlafayette

Really? Where in any of my comments here did I say anything to indicate the MRM is misogynist? What does AVfM say that is misogynist?
Why do you have a hard time believing that pro-male advocation is no worse than pro-female?

expect_resistance

From personal interaction.

Ed

“And none of the legitimate mens rights issues are the result of (nonexistent) female oppression, they’re the result of the patriarchy!”

The scapegoating of patriarchy is as brain dead as right wingers blaming socialism in America for the plight lower classes. A group of gender activist seeking moral cover for their campaign against the male gender itself might cling to an idea like patriarchy but a realist who actually sees us all as equal human beings would be thoughtful enough to recognize a culture or cultures with far more complexity. Women and men are apart of that complexity. Ideologies like feminism are also apart of it. To assert that the only influence in our culture is the drive towards male dominance is absurd.

The reason we see women’s rights activists lashing out ant men’s rights activist has more to do with the apparent failure of feminism to effectively address pertinent male issues just as a rigid patriarchal order short changed focus on women needs. The desire by any to maintain a monopoly on gender issues has creates an intolerable state of corruption which must be challenged for justice to be done. We have neglected men and boys in our society. The focus should be on fixing that rather than figuring out how we can blame it on men and boys. The people doing this are morally bankrupt charlatans trying to defend their own past tranbpAnd none of the legitimate mens rights issues are the result of (nonexistent) female oppression, they’re the result of the patriarchy! sgressions which contributed to gender margionalization. We shouldn’t be listening to

L-dan

I don’t see references to the patriarchy as requiring or implying hate, resentment, or hostility to men. As a cultural, systemic set of rules, attitudes, and biases that favor men as the cultural ‘norm’, it’s a rather well-established concept. Recent research still shows implicit bias when doing things like showing people identical resumes/CVs and finding that scientists feel the male name is a better scientist, or managers offer a higher wage to the male name. This doesn’t mean we’re hating the people with those implicit biases–they’re frequently not even consciously held–so much as pointing out that those cultural forces still exist.

The charlatans defending perspectives of gander hate are the ones I see on the sorts of ‘men’s rights’ sites mentioned. As KruciusNayl noted, there are men legitimately fighting for changes in things that do affect men more than women, and have thus not seen as much attention. But the sites that are basically just feminist-bashing mostly seem there to spew their own hate rather than advance anyone’s rights.

voodooidol

It most certainly is not a “well established concept”. The vast majority of homelessness and workplace deaths/injury are suffered by men. Women account for a much larger percentage of college enrollment and graduation than men. Men are viewed as non-parents when it comes to custody/visitation issues where children are involved.

How does this benefit men, exactly? When men are required to register for the draft and not women, how does this benefit men?

Looks like the gender hater here is you and your “feminist” ilk. You deny reality to push an agenda that is unnecessary in the western world and you ignore the plight of women in countries that are much less privileged – and you ignore women of color completely.

CT14

You just told everyone to stop listening to MRA fora.

Ivy Mike

As soon as I saw both Ms. Marcotte’s name and the letters, “MRA” in the title, I knew the basement-dwelling whiners would show up here in a pathetic attempt to defend the indefensible. Didn’t take them but a day…I guess they had to wait for Mommy to leave before using her computer.

Murphy

As soon as I saw the title, I knew that Amanda was going to ignore the fact that half the editorial board of A Voice for Men are women.

Ivy Mike

Yeah, I know, some of your BEST friends…

Murphy

Best, BEST friends my pathetic mangina buddy!

Ivy Mike

Oh, I was waiting for the “mangina” gambit! It’s one of you pathetic trolls’ favorite slurs. Your own made-up insult.

Fact is, most of you idiots are only bitching about women because your own love lives are such catastrophies

Do you actually think any man with a shred of self-confidence and awareness is bothered by a schoolboy taunt? Or that it marks you as anything but an immature jerk?

Murphy

I’m not bothered by your taunts in the slightest. You haven’t got any arguments so insults are all you have. Water off a duck’s back my friend. As for my love life – it’s great thanks – I’ve been with my partner for 15 years.

HE’S wonderful, thanks for asking.

Ivy Mike

Ah, it was you who used the term “mangina”, Sport. Both to insult me and to toss a sideways insult at women. Somehow, I don’t quite buy that you’re in any sort of relationship.

Murphy

And ‘basement dwelling whiner’ isn’t a gendered insult? Sorry ‘mate’ I think you conceded the high ground first on that one.

Ivy Mike

Exactly what “gendered” insult is included in “basement dwelling whiner”? Especially since one of your cohorts on this thread even admitted to living in a basement? Particularly when it wasn’t aimed at any particular person, and “mangina” was?

This thread just keeps on giving…

L-dan

What’s that have to do with anything? You won’t find a feminist around who doesn’t think women uphold the patriarchy too.

Though I tend to skip the insults until I have someone specific being a douche to address them to. I share Ivy Mike’s sentiments that the flood of whining was inevitable.

TefExpat

“…there’s no website where women are arguing they’re oppressed because they can’t snap their fingers and have…”

Um, could that be because men are always willing / sexually available thus women can “snap their fingers and have” a man in the sack whenever it suits them?

L-dan

*dies laughing*

You actually believe that? You need to get away from your internet echo chambers.

questioneverything

There is a concept called the 80-20 rule that gets floated around which states that men in general are attracted to ~80% of women, while women are attracted to ~20% of men. This matches many people’s anecdotal experiences and the evolutionary narrative of alpha males spreading their genes to a large set of women.

I read about a study an online dating site did which appeared to confirm this (men send out messages to a ton of females, but females are really only interested in a few men), but I couldn’t find it off the bat.

L-dan

Is there some actual research regarding this 80-20 rule? Because if it’s just anecdote, it doesn’t match my anecdata.

Dating sites are a horrible place to research that. In a society that, until recently, has pretty much required men to be the instigator, it’s not really surprising that men ask more often. The ratio of men and women on those sites may have something to do with it. Likewise the volume of messages. I can’t tell you how many messages I’ve gotten (not even on dating sites) from men apparently taking the mass mailing approach. I’m oddly uninterested in a message that says “hey girl” with nothing else (maybe a picture, and several cock shots). The fact that few of those get a response says zero about how attractive women find men.

Back to the original point on this thread, even if it were true, how does ‘not getting laid as much as I want’ equal oppression of any sort? If it were, how would you solve it while still respecting the humanity of all involved?

CT14

If only that were true!

TefExpat

One woman can take down an entire frat house or half a college football team over a weekend. Some do. A man, even if he wanted to, couldn’t do that with a group of women.

L-dan

And?

1. Some do. OK? This proves what? That some women can snap their fingers and get a group of guys (who, if they’re together, are likely to be egging one another on to perform acceptable masculinity. Turning down a ‘chance like that’ would have negative consequences for them from their frat/team mates, wouldn’t it?)

2. How does being able to not get laid when one wants to equal oppression?

“The right of a woman to determine when she has sex and with whom is perceived in these circles as…”

A windfall for a few socially dominant men? Thus, is this really about the bulk of men who are not considered attractive by most women and the few smooth-talkin slick dudes who are passing around most of the tail (and ruining all the wife material in the process)? Seems so.

Ivy Mike

Could it be that those “unattractive” men need to shave, shower, get some good clothes, hit the gym more often than Mickey D’s, and improve their own attitudes?

NAaaah. Too much trouble, blame the wimmenz!

You guys are hilarious.

L-dan

Really? You’re trotting this out as a *defense* of MRAs?

1. Even if it were a windfall for socially dominant men, pray tell me why that negates the right of women to determine who they have sex with? Do you have a solution here that actually upholds the full humanity of all involved?

2. ‘Ruining the wife material’? So women who have had sex are poor wife material *for you* and therefore there is something wrong with women doing what they want to do, because it means your pool of potential wives is smaller. You realize that you’re not the center of the universe, right? You realize that actual people are under no obligation to think that your preferences in wife material should drive any policy or any aspects of *their* lives, right?

CT14

Women most certainly could not always own property in the UK.

How about you pick up some Wollstonecraft and educate yourself before asking others for evidence.

First of all, complecting “Revenge Porn” and “Men’s Rights activists” is low and absolutely false. Has the author even read about what “Men’s Rights activists” fight for? Fairer treatment in divorce court (current family law is based on old prejudices of inequality, and heavily in favor of women), bringing attention to the fact that the vast majority of suicides are men, bringing attention to the fact that the vast majority of homeless are men, bringing attention to the fact that the 95% of workplace fatalities are men. These are real, objective, issues; if “feminists” were pushing for real equality, they would be trying to achieve it in all areas, including the many areas where men’s lives’ aren’t so rosy. The majority of CEOs are men, yes, but so are the majority of trash truck workers.

Secondly, this article’s assertion that the central focus of “Men’s Rights” is achieving “control” over women is absurd on its face and is supported by nothing in the article. Two of the primary sects of the men’s internet movement are PUA (PUA men seek self-improvement and exchange advice about attracting women. I would liken the movement to women wearing attractive clothing and makeup to attract men) and MGTOW (men who are fed up with relationships completely and thus seek to make better lives for themselves and their friends, without females).

MGTOW is as far away from “controlling” women as you can possibly get.

CT14

LOL!

You’re defend MRAs with PICKUP ARTISTS???

You win the thread. Utter fail.

questioneverything

Is there anything wrong with men learning what is attractive to women?

L-dan

Not really. However, a fair bit of PU Artistry out there is laced more with how to manipulate women rather than learning what is attractive. I’ve seen some shifts, but there’s a *lot* of that crap still out there.

The meeting people parts are usually not too bad, and potentially confidence building. The ‘sealing the deal’ parts often read as borderline to actual date-rapey. I feel sort of sorry for the guys getting into it without the background or knowledge to sift through it for the useful stuff without absorbing the toxic.

Murphy

Uhhh….nope that’s not what he said. Reading comprehension fail.

Ivy Mike

“PUA men seek self-improvement and exchange advice about attracting women…”

ROFlMAO! PUA’s are a bunch of douchebags who are seeking a magic formula to get women to screw them without spending money on roofies. They regard women as slightly more useful than the sock under their beds!

Oh, my godz, this thread is a goldmine of stupid! Ms. Marcotte, I don’t always agree with you, but thank you for the entertainment!

questioneverything

There is nothing special about women that should make men love, respect, or protect them. Those ideas are obsolete, gone with the wind if you will.

Men and women are essentially the same thing, with inverted reproductive organs. The only thing that remains between us is the undeniable biological mating imperative. PUA is a way to satisfy that and get on with life.

They may be deuches, but at least they are rather pragmatic deuches.

voodooidol

Whoa whoa whoa…

I’m an MRA and I’m a far left liberal who strongly believes in equality between the sexes and a woman’s right to choose. I know very, very few MRAs who feel differently.

And, to be fair, there are a whole lot of women who feel that women should be subservient to men. A scary number. So, this isn’t just a “male” thing and it has nothing to do with the MRA.

In short: You’re full of shit.

TefExpat

MRA’s are feared for some reason. Conflating whatever angst du jour with them is popular. Apparently.

Ivy Mike

Yeah, if MRA’s ever climb out of their parent’s basements, they might just…

…have a heart attack on the stairs. Yep, the world shakes in terror!

TefExpat

There ya go

logic11

Huh. I’m an MRA. I train Taekwondo and do Parkour. I haven’t lived with my (strongly feminist) mother since I was 15, when she kicked me out. I admit to living in a basement. My GF and I have a nice house in the suburbs, but we do have our bedroom in the basement (just the layout of the house, the master bedroom is downstairs in the fully finished basement). Guess you win that one. No way that’s an ad hominem attack designed to not deal with issues at all.

TefExpat

Even Marcotte has moved beyond the basement thingy. She now tells men to learn ‘Game’ :
“Be more attractive”
–Amanda Marcotte

logic11

Wow, just wow. I always feel so bad for guys who get hit with this. I was a nerd in junior high and grade school (and an anti-social punk in high school just so we are clear) and was largely excluded from the male hierarchies that abounded… but women always found me attractive (looking at old photos I was pretty good looking when I was young, just totally unaware of it at the time) and I was always a bit of a jerk (yes, a lot of women really do like jerks, I think it’s more to do with perceived confidence, but still, it’s the only way to explain my teenage years vs. those of my friends who were pretty much all nicer people than I was). Shaming guys for not being attractive is so common that it’s not even really noticed, and that’s total bullshit.

TefExpat

There is no Jerk Shaming, even among feminists. That is because such men have social proof. If you’re getting with a lot of women, that is proof since it takes EFFORT to do that. Then more women want you. You get respect for the accomplishment. Men want the opposite from women (esp. for commitment) since women getting with a lot of men requires little to no effort. That which is easy to get has lower value.

logic11

Well, there is that theory, or the more popular one that it has more to do with identifying the parentage of any potential offspring, and resource availability. I tend to go that route, while still acknowledging that these things aren’t absolute. I have known women who truly did value nice guys, and guys who were really okay with women who slept around a lot (I’m in that camp actually).

Ivy Mike

ITG (Internet Tough Guy) dodge noted. And laughed at. Your girlfriend know you’re a member of the He-Man Women-Haters Club on the Internet?

logic11

First: My GF knows that I regularly debate on matters of gender equality online. Of course we are on the same page, so that takes some of the sting out of your cruel and cutting barbs.

Of course, if you read the other stuff I have said on here you will see that I’m not really dodging anything – in fact from what I can tell that’s pretty much what you are doing. Using ad hominem attacks to avoid having to actually debate any issues.

So – I’m pro equality for both genders. I don’t believe that modern mainstream feminism is doing much to make that happen, and I think that articles like this one actively discourage real discussions (how does equating the MRM and revenge porn even happen?). I also believe that there are some real areas of concern for modern men, and that those areas are not being looked at by mainstream society. My activism is not by any means relegated to the Internet, and never has been. I have also never campaigned against an equal right for women in any area, and grew up in a strongly feminist household. Where is the dodge? Do you have any actual points that I should be addressing? If so, list them, I will address them. Until then, you are a bully who believes in insulting people to get his way.

TefExpat

Its the feminist way. Thus the popularity of that so-called ‘movement’

L-dan

*Looks around the internet*

A lot of folks with the attitudes described above post all over the place with toxic and insulting garbage. The attitudes above are all over the most prominent sites calling themselves part of the MRM.

It’s great that you know lots of decent MRAs. But much like all my decent Christian friends, you’re being drowned out by the asshole fringe. This is not the fault of the folks hearing these messages in either case. It is not really surprising that the widespread view of MRAs is that they are predominantly anti-feminist rather than actively *for* anything useful when that’s what they’re mainly seen shouting.

Hell, ‘feminism’ has a negative connotation in lots of places, as much as we decry it and note that a lot of people going “I’m not a feminist” are actually upholding feminist principles and just don’t want to deal with the tarring and feathering they’d get from some quarters.

*looks at article that has ballooned from 50 to 125 posts in an hour*

And simply mentioning MRM/MRA in and article tends to have that effect everywhere as people pile on, toss insults, toss the kinds of “alpha/beta males get all the women” shit TefExpat is spewing already. That’s kind of part of how the movement’s gotten the reputation it has.

voodooidol

Yeah? So? There are a whole lot more that are very reasonable.

Shall I point to all the insane self-described feminists who call for all male children to be killed or men to be kept as slaves and use this as an excuse to conflate feminism with revenge porn? Are the decent feminists being “drowned out” by the asshole fringe?

No, of course not.

If you’re arguing that the assholes in the MRA are drowning out the decent folks and not making the same correlation with the feminist movement then, guess what?

You’re a sexist.

P.S. I haven’t yet read any of the posts of the sort that you are referring to.

L-dan

Then you haven’t tried very hard since those posts are in this very thread. If you think ‘not getting laid enough’ = oppression, isn’t a toxic position to hold, you’re not thinking about it very critically.

The self described feminists with such views don’t have their own widely-regarded soapboxes either. Dworken? Often out of context, but also really old news. It’s like the forced-birthers telling us that Planned Parenthood in its current state is evil because its founder was a eugenicist (simplification of her history, but that’s another topic). We happily flame other feminists for stupid shit (Naomi Wolf? hoo boy).

So no, arguing that assholes are drowning out your message isn’t sexist. You saw the part where I noted that many people back away from the term feminist? I may think they’ve got a distorted view of feminist. But I’m not going to win that argument by shouting them down any more than my Methodist friends are going win an argument where I feel justified in distrusting things with Christian backers thanks to the Catholic Church and religious right wing. Playing no true Scotsman doesn’t work.

Want to popularize some *good* Men’s Rights sites that we don’t know about?