Oxford wrote:getting off and walking is sensible on two levels. its safer if something unexpected does happen

I fail to see how.

Oxford wrote:and its not likely to get you into as much trouble with the law as riding through a red light.

Which I don't think is particularly relevant in this discussion. Those who ignore red lights by-enlarge accept the fact that they are breaking the law and will get fined if caught. Pedestrians also get fined for walking against red lights that doesn't stop them doing it.

Oxford wrote:really I could care less except that I am a little disappointed that people can dream up all sorts of reasons, excuses, insults and basically crap arguments for breaking the law when they do not suit.

We ALL break the law Oxford. Don't pretend for a second that you don't also break laws when they do not suit.

Oxford wrote:really I could care less except that I am a little disappointed that people can dream up all sorts of reasons, excuses, insults and basically crap arguments for breaking the law when they do not suit.

We ALL break the law Oxford. Don't pretend for a second that you don't also break laws when they do not suit.

Hmm...

Rolling along the footpath, riding across pedestrian crossings, not stopping completely at stop signs, doing a u-turn across a solid line ????

Yes, we all do things that are rule-breakers, cyclists, drivers, even Oxford I'm sure.

Oxford wrote:I cannot help you with your failing to understand something this simple.

No, people still whine when they get caught breaking the law and think it is unfair even when they know they have blatantly done wrong. Worse still when its incontrovertibly shown to them such as video and they still try to justify it somehow.

I'm not pretending I don't break the law, I'm just not trying to justify it to anyone. I know for a fact that I probably break the law somehow everyday, but I do not go out of my way to blatantly break laws and then try to come up with lame reasons justifying it.

So please play the argument not the man, its not about me and what I do and me justifying myself. Its about cyclists in general justifying why they think they should somehow be exempt from traffic regulations at their discretion for some whatever reason when they feel they should be exempt.

So you're saying that you break laws for the hell of it with no justification? In my opinion that's worse than breaking laws that you feel are unjust.

Oxford wrote:Its about cyclists in general justifying why they think they should somehow be exempt from traffic regulations at their discretion for some whatever reason when they feel they should be exempt.

You have it wrong there. It's not simply about cyclists. The rule on faulty lights is quite a clear one. If I was stopped at a right turn lane in my car and the sensor had failed to detect me, after I had sat through one or two cycles of the light not going green, I would also proceed if safe, giving way to the right and oncoming vehicles.

Oxford wrote:I cannot help you with your failing to understand something this simple.

No, people still whine when they get caught breaking the law and think it is unfair even when they know they have blatantly done wrong. Worse still when its incontrovertibly shown to them such as video and they still try to justify it somehow.

I'm not pretending I don't break the law, I'm just not trying to justify it to anyone. I know for a fact that I probably break the law somehow everyday, but I do not go out of my way to blatantly break laws and then try to come up with lame reasons justifying it.

So please play the argument not the man, its not about me and what I do and me justifying myself. Its about cyclists in general justifying why they think they should somehow be exempt from traffic regulations at their discretion for some whatever reason when they feel they should be exempt.

So you're saying that you break laws for the hell of it with no justification? In my opinion that's worse than breaking laws that you feel are unjust.

Oxford can correct me, but I don't think he was saying he breaks laws 'just for the hell of it'.

And I don't think the whingers he mentioned were breaking laws that they genuinely felt were unjust.

I believe he was referring to two people, breaking the same law (maybe walking against a red man on a traffic crossing when safe to do so, something trivial like that)... Person A (the whinger) gets picked up, has a sook about how the police should be dealing with bigger issues. Person B (Oxford) would take it on the chin, understand he broke the law simply for his own convenience, and take the ramifications on the chin.

Oxford wrote:I cannot help you with your failing to understand something this simple.

No, people still whine when they get caught breaking the law and think it is unfair even when they know they have blatantly done wrong. Worse still when its incontrovertibly shown to them such as video and they still try to justify it somehow.

I'm not pretending I don't break the law, I'm just not trying to justify it to anyone. I know for a fact that I probably break the law somehow everyday, but I do not go out of my way to blatantly break laws and then try to come up with lame reasons justifying it.

So please play the argument not the man, its not about me and what I do and me justifying myself. Its about cyclists in general justifying why they think they should somehow be exempt from traffic regulations at their discretion for some whatever reason when they feel they should be exempt.

So you're saying that you break laws for the hell of it with no justification? In my opinion that's worse than breaking laws that you feel are unjust.

Oxford can correct me, but I don't think he was saying he breaks laws 'just for the hell of it'.

And I don't think the whingers he mentioned were breaking laws that they genuinely felt were unjust.

I believe he was referring to two people, breaking the same law (maybe walking against a red man on a traffic crossing when safe to do so, something trivial like that)... Person A (the whinger) gets picked up, has a sook about how the police should be dealing with bigger issues. Person B (Oxford) would take it on the chin, understand he broke the law simply for his own convenience, and take the ramifications on the chin.

What about person C who explains why the law is unjust and attempts to fight the charge in court without having a sook?

I've only been riding for a few months now, and depending if i'm on the road or path, i'll cross on the path, I never wait for the light to go green, as a driver is pisses me off to sit there when someone has hit the button and crossed, so i cross if the traffic is flowing the same way

I also don't do round abouts, I'll cross to the inside lane and then cross to get to the bike path on the other side of the road, I'll mostly do this at pace so I can get of the road as quick as possible,

On the way to work I ride along the road, there is a bike path or bike lane 90% of the way, at which I will abid by the road rules and stop at red lights etc!

Undertow wrote:What about person C who explains why the law is unjust and attempts to fight the charge in court without having a sook?

They're an idealist. Possibly naive. And all they have to lose is their money.

I had a friend who was fined by a police officer for riding his bike without lights and riding on the footpath. He was actually walking along the sidewalk with his bike after a pub session, and a police officer decided that my friend had intent to ride his bike.

Long story short, took it to court, Judge apparently saw my friends point of view but sided with the cops. Had to pay the fine and court costs.

Either way, Oxford didn't make mention of Person C a.k.a Idealist. You brought this person up. Oxford was criticizing those dorks who complain when they get caught doing the wrong thing.

jimboss wrote:I had a friend who was fined by a police officer for riding his bike without lights and riding on the footpath. He was actually walking along the sidewalk with his bike after a pub session, and a police officer decided that my friend had intent to ride his bike.

Long story short, took it to court, Judge apparently saw my friends point of view but sided with the cops. Had to pay the fine and court costs.

That is amazingly unjust. I wished he would have taken it further. Unfortunately sometimes our system is guilty until proven innocent. I'm now confused how you can take a bike into my bike store for maintenance without "riding on the pavement".

jimboss wrote:I had a friend who was fined by a police officer for riding his bike without lights and riding on the footpath. He was actually walking along the sidewalk with his bike after a pub session, and a police officer decided that my friend had intent to ride his bike.

Long story short, took it to court, Judge apparently saw my friends point of view but sided with the cops. Had to pay the fine and court costs.

That is amazingly unjust. I wished he would have taken it further. Unfortunately sometimes our system is guilty until proven innocent. I'm now confused how you can take a bike into my bike store for maintenance without "riding on the pavement".

Totally unjust. But he was already down $1000-ish instead of originally paying $100 in fines and didn't have anymore energy (or money) for it.

To further elaborate, apparently the police officer watched my friends unlock their bikes, put their helmets on and walk down the street and deduced they would be riding them at some point in time. Whether or not the crime was actually committed did not concern the magistrate.

And, as a sidenote, by definition expiation notices are guilty until proven innocent.

Oxford wrote:Its about cyclists in general justifying why they think they should somehow be exempt from traffic regulations at their discretion for some whatever reason when they feel they should be exempt.

You have it wrong there. It's not simply about cyclists. The rule on faulty lights is quite a clear one. If I was stopped at a right turn lane in my car and the sensor had failed to detect me, after I had sat through one or two cycles of the light not going green, I would also proceed if safe, giving way to the right and oncoming vehicles.

And it would be within the law.

Il padrone, Oxford is not referring to you. Nor are the others who are against RLJ. There is no need to keep trying to defend yourself, we already established in the first few pages that going through a red light with caution is ok if the light is faulty...That's a good enough reason. Oxford is referring to the people who have posted in this thread that have completely disregard the traffic lights

jimboss wrote:I had a friend who was fined by a police officer for riding his bike without lights and riding on the footpath. He was actually walking along the sidewalk with his bike after a pub session, and a police officer decided that my friend had intent to ride his bike.

Long story short, took it to court, Judge apparently saw my friends point of view but sided with the cops. Had to pay the fine and court costs.

That is amazingly unjust. I wished he would have taken it further. Unfortunately sometimes our system is guilty until proven innocent. I'm now confused how you can take a bike into my bike store for maintenance without "riding on the pavement".

Totally unjust. But he was already down $1000-ish instead of originally paying $100 in fines and didn't have anymore energy (or money) for it.

To further elaborate, apparently the police officer watched my friends unlock their bikes, put their helmets on and walk down the street and deduced they would be riding them at some point in time. Whether or not the crime was actually committed did not concern the magistrate.

And, as a sidenote, by definition expiation notices are guilty until proven innocent.

I'd have reported the cop for police brutality. Sure he hadn't committed it yet but I could tell he was intending to by the way he was making up crimes.

Oxford wrote:I cannot help you with your failing to understand something this simple.

No, people still whine when they get caught breaking the law and think it is unfair even when they know they have blatantly done wrong. Worse still when its incontrovertibly shown to them such as video and they still try to justify it somehow.

I'm not pretending I don't break the law, I'm just not trying to justify it to anyone. I know for a fact that I probably break the law somehow everyday, but I do not go out of my way to blatantly break laws and then try to come up with lame reasons justifying it.

So please play the argument not the man, its not about me and what I do and me justifying myself. Its about cyclists in general justifying why they think they should somehow be exempt from traffic regulations at their discretion for some whatever reason when they feel they should be exempt.

So you're saying that you break laws for the hell of it with no justification? In my opinion that's worse than breaking laws that you feel are unjust.

That is not what he said. Undertow and all of you who are picking at Oxfords posts, you're just trying to make yourself feel better because you feel guilty for disregarding traffic lights.

Philipthelam wrote:Oxford is referring to the people who have posted in this thread that have completely disregard the traffic lights

I'm not sure ANYBODY here has stated they have complete disregard for traffic lights. I certainly haven't. In fact I find traffic lights are an excellent initial indicator on whether or not it is safe to proceed.

The fact of the matter is I, unlike many here, are vocal and honest about individual breeching of an occasional road rule when it is evident that it that it will not inconvenience or harm nobody.

Whether it is having a bell on your bicycle, riding short distances a the footpath, not stopping completely at stop signs, or indicating every single turn you make, we all breech some road rules. If you believe you don't then you either are lying to yourself or not aware of all the road rules.

The question was asked in this thread and I honestly answered it. You and a few others are attempting to demonise such behaviour, which personally I think is amazingly self righteous.

Philipthelam wrote:That is not what he said. Undertow and all of you who are picking at Oxfords posts, you're just trying to make yourself feel better because you feel guilty for disregarding traffic lights.

I don't feel guilty nor proud for going through a red traffic light. I am simply making a what I see sensible and rational decision. Do you feel guilty for not having a bell on your bike? Or for not stopping completely at stop signs?

So far I have avoided posting on this subject, but now that I have had a couple of beers..........

Do I care that some cyclists go through red lights, don’t bother wearing helmets, don’t have suitable lights, or behave like complete dorks........not in least.......because sooner or later they will come a gutser and will have to pay the price for their own stupidity.

Do I think that this type of behaviour reflects badly on all cyclist.........not in the least.......an idiot is an idiot no matter what their mode of transport, and I believe the greater portion of road users recognise this.

As for those drivers that tar all cyclists with the same brush, they simply hate cyclists being on their road, and would still feel that way even if all cyclists behaved like angels.

For those who’s blood pressure goes through the roof when they see a cyclist behaving badly .......relax...... there are far worse actions happening in this world you should be getting upset about.........cyclist ignoring road rules is the least of your worry.

Oxford wrote:I cannot help you with your failing to understand something this simple.

No, people still whine when they get caught breaking the law and think it is unfair even when they know they have blatantly done wrong. Worse still when its incontrovertibly shown to them such as video and they still try to justify it somehow.

I'm not pretending I don't break the law, I'm just not trying to justify it to anyone. I know for a fact that I probably break the law somehow everyday, but I do not go out of my way to blatantly break laws and then try to come up with lame reasons justifying it.

So please play the argument not the man, its not about me and what I do and me justifying myself. Its about cyclists in general justifying why they think they should somehow be exempt from traffic regulations at their discretion for some whatever reason when they feel they should be exempt.

So you're saying that you break laws for the hell of it with no justification? In my opinion that's worse than breaking laws that you feel are unjust.

That is not what he said. Undertow and all of you who are picking at Oxfords posts, you're just trying to make yourself feel better because you feel guilty for disregarding traffic lights.

I've been riding for about 5 years now and in that time i think i've ran about 3 red lights, after treating them as stop signs. I doubt that would make me feel guilty enough to pick on someone to try and make myself feel better.

greyhoundtom wrote:So far I have avoided posting on this subject, but now that I have had a couple of beers..........

Do I care that some cyclists go through red lights, don’t bother wearing helmets, don’t have suitable lights, or behave like complete dorks........not in least.......because sooner or later they will come a gutser and will have to pay the price for their own stupidity.

Do I think that this type of behaviour reflects badly on all cyclist.........not in the least.......an idiot is an idiot no matter what their mode of transport, and I believe the greater portion of road users recognise this.

As for those drivers that tar all cyclists with the same brush, they simply hate cyclists being on their road, and would still feel that way even if all cyclists behaved like angels.

For those who’s blood pressure goes through the roof when they see a cyclist behaving badly .......relax...... there are far worse actions happening in this world you should be getting upset about.........cyclist ignoring road rules is the least of your worry.

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