The sourdough formula/recipe comes from the Artisan Bread School course I took. I can check with Mr. Shavitz, the instructor, to see if he minds me posting it.

I can tell you it is based on a build of 56% hydration levain, and the loaves are retarded overnight in the refer after shaping, and there are pretty close to 8 hundred mix, knead, fold, preshape, shape steps all done by hand of course.

Thanks for this. No problem if Carl Shavitz doesn't want to make his formula public. Sounds like his classes are great - shame I'm in the U.K.

I'm a novice baker but I've just reached the stage where I've been able to adapt a formula and develop my own version, so will look in Hamelman and others for something close to 56% levain.

Glad it's by hand - that is the only way I can make bread. Have chosen to keep going with that, though, given the postings about mixers. Certainly easier to clean down, although the mixer also has to stop between loads! 800 manoevres, phew...Still it looks great!

School of Artisan Food is based in Nottinghamshire. Carl Shavitz has roots in the Village Bakery, Melmerby. I just checked out their website, and he is no longer listed as a teacher. However, he was on there until recently.

Oh cool. Thanks for looking that up. I've heard of the School of Artisan Food and checked it online. That is really close at hand. I'll check them again. I'd assumed it was a stateside version as most of the posters are stateside.

It's really interesting that he was at Melmerby. Reminds me I must try some of Andrew Whitley's recipes. Was thinking Cromarty Cob, although there are no specific baking instructions. Am assuming it is like previous sourdoughs, 10 at 220C, 30-40 at 200? Would that be about right?

Thanks Andy. Good that you caught William Black in Oxford. 'Phone going off in a talk, though - that is such a classic! Breads on the site look nice though. I would think a training school like School of Artisan Bread would be more thorough and understand Emmanuel Hadjiandreou is very good. It was the specialist rye option at Natural Bread Co. that caught my eye. Best wishes, Daisy_A

Many thanks for following that up, that's brilliant. It certainly does look like a beautiful sourdough. What wonderful crumb, crust and rise, well everything really. Good to hear about the taste too. Is this the bread on your avatar - looks great? It's very generous too of Carl Shavitz to share such a lovely formula. Do pass on thanks if you are in contact with him again (sure you will!)

I had to analyse the instructions, clever as they are, to understand what BlueSkies/aka Todd was telling us. Then it took me several attempts, but I can now claim to have conquered this recipe, and it is truly staggeringly brilliant, excellent. I must pursue these Shavitz courses. If his focaccia is as good as this, then he is truly magnificent.

Todd, could you pls advise the bulk proof time for this recipe? I'm assuming from your directions re kneading and S&Fs that it's something standard like 3 hours, but just wondering if you could verify this...

I read in an online profile that he had taught extensively in the U.K. but that he was involved with the classes in America around March 2101 then Tuscany for summer 2010. I think you are right - it is certainly worth checking if he plans any more for the U.K. in the future. Kind regards, Daisy_A

I started making Challah in 1975 and have made it most weeks since then. I started making wild yeast breads after discovering this forum about 1 1/2 yrs ago. I have always used straight dough "recipes" and kneading and have tried to adapt to this new concept of breads that take 3 days and endless hours of no or limited touching. I still prefer the old ways but love the challenge of the new ones. It is so nice to read of your new journey into bread making. Good Luck with your venture. c

Yes, I agree his course is expensive. I also think I learned plenty (!) and had way more fun in his course than I would have elsewhere.

If wfo is short for Wood Fired Oven...

I was very suprised to come away from the course appreciating my own combi/convection oven. That's not to say the wfo isn't superior. It certainly can be (at least if you are skilled at creating the correct temperature environment for the bread)...but it isn't THAT much better. I was certain I would come away from the course with a desperate desire to buy or build an oven. I didn't. There's a whole lot of fantastic bread made without a wfo.

Also, I gained an appreciation for the craft of building and maintaining the temperature in the wfo...and the satisfaction one receives from doing it well. It does have that similar element to making the bread itself.

Not having a wfo myself, I forget the other uses. Baked poultry, pizza, roasted veggies...mmm

Out of curiosity, am I wrong in assuming the flavors from a wfo would be dramatically enhanced by utilizing one with a continuous fire / ember versus one in which the heat source is completely removed prior to baking (which seems to be the most common style)?

My last recent bake included sausage, roasted veggies, pizza's and then buns. I left the last of the dying coals in the oven without removing to bake the buns. I use oak and because the coals had died down and reduced significantly there was very faint flavor from the dying oak coals. The most common way of baking bread in a wf pizza oven is to remove the hot coals and let the oven stabilize for at least an hour. A few weeks ago I bold baked sourdough boule's with larger coals still smoking and the flavor from the crust was awsome. Different wood gives different smokey flavors. Steaks are awsome grilled over the hot wood coals, a big difference from a gas grill or charcoal grilled. Julia Child has a video showing a steak being cooked directly on top of the wood coals, they are so hot the steak comes off clean. Every wfo is different, some have the fire underneath or inside the oven 'pizza wfo' and I'm still learning and experimenting with mine.

Old and new are definitely terms that can be defined in many ways. For me I saw an article in a magazine in 1975 showing a boy in his early teens that was making Challah and taking it around in a wagon and selling it in his neighborhood and selling it to friends and family. I was so impressed. They had printed his recipe. i have followed it ever since. It was my first bread and is my "go to" bread for most uses. I had never made a loaf of bread before that and had never even bought yeast before. I have never had a failure in bread making and feel so fortunate to be able to cont. all these years increasing my knowledge and learning more of the art of bread.

You are right about Challah . I use it for sandwich buns, for croutons and bread crumbs when it is stale and for French toast. I make it in lots of shapes and have found that believe it or not it tastes different depending on the shape you make. I think it is because of the amount of crust and also the length of time it bakes....any way I see that I am waxing poetic about Challah :) c

Hey Tod - newbie here. First post so forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere.

I live in Niteroí, RJ and have had poor success with my otherwise "perfect every time" pie crust (brought from the US).

Any advice you might have about local flour choices would be helpful. Are you using flours from the market in your breads or are you tweaking them up? And I can't wait to dive into some serious bread baking. This site is inspiring.

I have taken it upon myself to clarify a few facts. I've been to his website www.artisan-bread-school.com and as his mobile telephone number is given there I texted to ask if I could telephone him. As a result I can tell you catagorically that he lives outside Cambridge in the United Kingdom and provides breads to local shops and resturants, plus some in London. He only teaches at Artisan Bread School which has its HQ in Italy and courses associated with that School in the USA. He is adamant that he has no association with another establishment in the UK.

Many thanks for looking into this. I think this might be like one of those test questions in which the answer is 'all of the above are true' (even if they seem to contradict each other originally).

It's certainly true that Carl Shavitz has no current links with the School of Artisan Food in the U.K. However online documents, such as this information from the Campaign for Real Bread, established by Melmerby founder Andrew Whitley suggest that Carl Shavitz did teach there until recently, as Andy intimates http://www.sustainweb.org/realbread/real_bread_campaign_bread_making_courses/ (ref. 'Artisan Bread School').

Whatever the politics of this, it looks as though I've missed Carl Shavitz's recent U.K. contribution, sigh.... I can see that those of you who have taken one of his courses would probably accept no substitutes due to the level of inspiration you experienced.

Tuscany would be a dream. However I've heard that Emmanuel Hadjiandreou, who currently tutors on the baking summer school at the School of Artisan Food (U.K.) is very good. This year's course is full but this description gives a flavour http://www.schoolofartisanfood.org/coursedetail.aspx?ID=61.

Way to go Todd - just came across your 'ciabatta in the sky' on the Artisan Bread School photo page! It is a great shot.

I also liked the paintings of bread on the site. I've been thinking about this recently. So much current food styling draws on the look of old masters but I haven't found that talked about or referenced much up to now.

With regards to baking schools in the UK, I have two books by Richard Bertinet and I understand that he has a bread school in Bath. I'd love to be able to take one of these courses but I'm from Asia and it would be way too expensive for me so I'll just have to resort to learning the bread making skills from his books.

I live near Cambridge in the UK and happened to hear on BBC local radio that Carl Shavitz was giving a public demonstration at a local Windmill as part of the Lammas Festivities. I arrived at the appointed hour and the place was packed. That was my first surprise, all these bread enthusiasts. I also have to report that it was inspirational. He was, first and foremost, enthusiastic, as well as being a brilliant performer (as was his young assistant), clear in his explanations, willing to answer questions, and funny to boot. He cleverly had breads in various stages of production so each of us could witness, and have a go, at each stage. Breads were coming out of the oven at regular intervals so that we could taste the breads. They were fantastic. I'm absolutely serious, the best breads I've ever eaten. Focaccia, both traditional and sweet as well as sourdoughs. All made with flours from Foster's Mill where the demonstration took place. I'm a convert.

Thanks a bunch for sharing your experience with Carl Shavitz as well as the beautiful pictures of your bread. Thrilled to know you got so much out of his class.

Your enthusiasm is making me quite excited in meeting Carl and learning how to bake bread next month, October 13-17, in Olympia !! I'm very much a novice and want to learn for the sake of baking good bread for family and friends. So why not learn from the best.

Do you have any words of wisdom for me?! I'm reading some of the recommended books, but it all sounds Greek to me. Looking forward to learning by watching and doing. Sounds like he is a good instructor.

I'm going to NYC for a 4-day weekend before my trip to WA - looking forward to checking out the local artisanal bakeries.

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