JohnBirshire wrote on Sep 15, 2012, 18:45:Bordlerands was one of the most overrated games I've ever played. Gameplay was ridiculously repetitive, you spend the entire game doing the same thing you do in the first five minutes. There were literally only three enemies that you fought over and over and over again the entire game. The environment was drab and boring, there was no creativity whatsoever in designing anything you discover. And the bazillions of weapons were just randomized variations of themselves, see one you've seen them all. Story? Pfffttt, terrible. Also the most anti-climatic ending of all time. I have nooooo idea what all the fanfare was about. Yes you can play it with friends, which I did from start to finish, but we were both bored to tears the majority of the game.

I agree with you, I thought it was a really average and unfinished game. Enemy variety sucked, half of the weapon types were garbage and there was no actual customization. The funny writing abruptly disappears less than halfway through the game and you're left with the worlds blandest FPS. Play with friends seems to be code for shitty games that might be ok with beer. The ending after fighting the giant vagina monster was about the biggest gaming blueballs I've ever seen. Terrible game and its no wonder most of the reviews seem to say improvement over Borderlands, as if that was some unattainable goal.

Yeah but in Diablo every sorceress isn't the same as every other sorceress. The lack of distinguishing traits between various players (or between the classes themselves, what with each having all of one skill) is something in dire need of remedy.

JohnBirshire wrote on Sep 15, 2012, 18:45:Bordlerands was one of the most overrated games I've ever played. Gameplay was ridiculously repetitive, you spend the entire game doing the same thing you do in the first five minutes. There were literally only three enemies that you fought over and over and over again the entire game. The environment was drab and boring, there was no creativity whatsoever in designing anything you discover. And the bazillions of weapons were just randomized variations of themselves, see one you've seen them all. Story? Pfffttt, terrible. Also the most anti-climatic ending of all time. I have nooooo idea what all the fanfare was about. Yes you can play it with friends, which I did from start to finish, but we were both bored to tears the majority of the game.

Finally, someone else who shares the same opinion as me! Is Borderlands 2 a different game though? When I see RPG/FPS I think Deus Ex/Bioshock. I loved System Shock co-op, so will I get a similar experience?

I think of it as diablo with guns. Or Hellgate, if it sucked quite a bit less.

JohnBirshire wrote on Sep 15, 2012, 18:45:Bordlerands was one of the most overrated games I've ever played. Gameplay was ridiculously repetitive, you spend the entire game doing the same thing you do in the first five minutes. There were literally only three enemies that you fought over and over and over again the entire game. The environment was drab and boring, there was no creativity whatsoever in designing anything you discover. And the bazillions of weapons were just randomized variations of themselves, see one you've seen them all. Story? Pfffttt, terrible. Also the most anti-climatic ending of all time. I have nooooo idea what all the fanfare was about. Yes you can play it with friends, which I did from start to finish, but we were both bored to tears the majority of the game.

Finally, someone else who shares the same opinion as me! Is Borderlands 2 a different game though? When I see RPG/FPS I think Deus Ex/Bioshock. I loved System Shock co-op, so will I get a similar experience?

reisub wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 10:20:The conclusion I'd have to come to is high piracy rates are directly responsible for high sales numbers!

HAHA - good one! People constantly (and often deliberatley) mistake correlation for causality to strengthen their pre-conceived notion, and your clever little quip highlights it very well. Numbers can be made to dance a jig when it suits an agenda.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” - Mahatma Gandhi

And for the piracy record, even though I procured an "early" copy of this game I will still be buying it. The interface hasn't really changed other than your ECHO screen where you manage your inventory and such. You do have a nifty little minimap in the upper right hand corner of the screen though, no more compass. I am really enjoying the dialogue of Handsome Jack, whenever he opens up Comms to convince you to just off yourself, I crack up every time. Anyways, the game is nothing groundbreaking, it is pretty much the same game just new faces. I for one, quite enjoy this crazy world of Pandora.

Piracy really doesn't matter. Only sales matter. The games with the most hype and marketing get pirated the most and sell the most. The games with the least hype and marketing get pirated the least and sell the least. If you go by data alone, there is no clear correlation between high piracy and low sales. There is, however, a clear correlation between hype and sales.

Orogogus wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 03:08:That's interesting, since the numbers are much closer, about 4:1, but unfortunately they don't really go into their calculations, other than to say they collected the data from public trackers.

I did try going to an aggregator first, but their sorting options and categories generally aren't so good, making it hard to figure out what's what.

I agree, it's really fuzzy and unclear. I didn't want to make a big deal over your numbers simply because your main message was correct - PC piracy numbers are larger than console numbers. However, that stands to reason for a number of reasons - largest installed base by a mile, no proprietary hardware anti-piracy measures to defeat, etc.

I still refute goofy assertions like the ones Ubisoft made about PC piracy rate being 93-95%, of course without any data to back it up, but that is another discussion.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” - Mahatma Gandhi

Sorting by seeds and leeches seems inaccurate for a quantitative appraisal; it obviously is a good indication that PC piracy overall is in excess of console piracy but we already knew that. I prefer aggregate sites that show total number of torrent downloads by game. Still inaccurate for exact numbers but more helpful for coming up with ratios like the ones you discuss.

edit: Here's a quick and dirty example, though not necessarily the most recent one; just an illustration of the methodolgy that seems more reliable. It takes some extrapolating, but if you look at the PC piracy of Modern Warfare 3 and compare it to the compiled piracy of Modern Warfare 3 across all 3 consoles ( the most fair comparison imo), the piracy ratio is determinable. FIFA 3's piracy ratios between the PC and the Wii can also be seen (3.6 million versus 800k). The same can be done from similar list for Skyrim and other hugely popular games (I honestly haven't seen one for Max Payne 3,which I mention because you cited it.) Note that the more meaningful data has to be extracted from sites like torrent freak itself rather than lists like this one that just reference it, but it takes more time. I just wanted to give you an example since you asked.

This comment was edited on Sep 16, 2012, 03:01.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” - Mahatma Gandhi

That's how it generally goes. The console versions get pirated first, but once the PC release gets out it usually has 10-50 times as many downloaders and seeders.

"10-50" times is an exaggeration from the numbers I generally see. Actually 10 times seems closer to the top end. Also, a good portion of that number is due to console gamers who feel entitled to the PC version because they already bought the console version. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard that justification on forums and in person.

If I go to the world's most popular torrent site, put in Skyrim and sort by seeds, the first console download isn't even on the first page, and it's outnumbered by the first PC download alone by about 100-1. Dark Souls released much, much later on the PC, but even taking that into consideration it's outnumbering the 360 version by like 1938 to 9. Max Payne might be a more balanced example, and it looks like about 40:1.

My methodology was to go to the PC category, sort by seeds, and then search for the top titles that I knew to have a console release. If I flip it around, Sleeping Dogs is currently the biggest 360 download, and is around 30:1. How are you checking?

xXBatmanXx wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 00:51:Console version is pirated - friends already playing it - say it is pretty darn good....can't wait for my steam unlock!

Don't you love how that is? All the bitching about piracy on PC, and the console versions are almost always leaked first. Then all it takes is the use of Steamworks to at least guarantee nobody plays it until release day.

It's crazy. Publishers seem to like to pretend that all of the piracy is on the PC and the console has none, but every major game release paints a very different picture.

That's how it generally goes. The console versions get pirated first, but once the PC release gets out it usually has 10-50 times as many downloaders and seeders.

"10-50" times is an exaggeration from the numbers I generally see. Actually 10 times seems closer to the top end. Also, a good portion of that number is due to console gamers who feel entitled to the PC version because they already bought the console version. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard that justification on forums and in person.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” - Mahatma Gandhi

xXBatmanXx wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 00:51:Console version is pirated - friends already playing it - say it is pretty darn good....can't wait for my steam unlock!

Don't you love how that is? All the bitching about piracy on PC, and the console versions are almost always leaked first. Then all it takes is the use of Steamworks to at least guarantee nobody plays it until release day.

That's how it generally goes. The console versions get pirated first, but once the PC release gets out it usually has 10-50 times as many downloaders and seeders.

xXBatmanXx wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 00:51:Console version is pirated - friends already playing it - say it is pretty darn good....can't wait for my steam unlock!

Don't you love how that is? All the bitching about piracy on PC, and the console versions are almost always leaked first. Then all it takes is the use of Steamworks to at least guarantee nobody plays it until release day.

eRe4s3r wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 00:16:The review was played on an xbox360...

IGN never reviews PC games. Their "PC Reviews" are just word for word rewrites of an Xbox360 review, if possible. (did they review Guild Wars 2? If so, it must have REALLY irritated them that they didn't have a 360 version they could review.)

IGN giving it a 9/10 can mean it's a great game, or it can mean that it really, REALLY fucking sucks, but they get a great big paycheck from the publisher. Or anything in between, really.

I loved Borderlands probably more than I should have, but I thought it was fantastic despite its glaring flaws. And even more crazy, I played it almost exclusively singleplayer. What little coop I did play was fun though. Can't wait for Borderlands 2!

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” - Mahatma Gandhi