Last night is going to be seen in hindsight as a seminal game in NFL history. Like the 50 Browns Eagles opener or SB3 or such. First time 2 spread speed offenses squared off. I was watching the carrier kill the battleship, video killing the radio star, Dorias passing to Rockne, Elvis on Sullivan.

For years I wondered why the Meyer Revolution that dominated Friday & Saturday was That Which of We Could Not Speak on Sunday. I mocked Chip Kelly making the transition. I bought in and worshipped at the church of orthodoxy with a closed mind. Well no more. Saul has been hit by lightening and I'm Jake Blues diggin the Reverand Cleopus.

The spread Elwood. THE SPREAD.

3 seasons ago you could have gotten a spread QB got the price of a VCR. They were men without an NFL position. After last night and what will come that is no more. RG3 opened minds but only if obvious crossover talent was there to conventional. I think that's out the window. Competition will be fierce for the Spread QBs without bias.

So the connections to the sorry azzed sad sack franchise we love is....?

If you thought 2010 was a colossally stupid move on the part on Holmgren to waste a year with Mangina when he knew he was changing systems, you're gonna LOVE the rest of 2013. It no longer serves any purpose.

Chud can adapt. I doubt Norv Turner, the old battleship admiral, can adapt in the way we need. This also puts the final nail in Weeds coffin and more so TRich doesn't have what it takes to play spread RB. In this system you'll need two duel threat QBs and two fast straight line RBs that can catch. Watching TRich in space is the biggest trajedy since The Challenger. We'll need more WRs who can run, not these big men if they can't break 4.45. Speed, tempo, tempo, speed.

The entire offensive roster except JT, Mack, Gotdon, and Cameron needs to be replaced to adapt. We are further along on D but obviously need DBs up the wazoo.

The alternative is to dick around struggling to find a roster to fit an obsolete system that won't work unless you can draft Andrew Luck.

Change or wait on Gadot.

Blow it up Joe. Blow it up now. Blow it up as if Charlton Heston is gonna fall to his knees in rags looking at the top of the Statue of Liberty buried on a sandy beach with a totally smoking feral babe. Do it now Joe. Get what you can for your battle cruisers, kodak film and main frames.

We missed out on early adoption from lack of balls. Don't sleep until obsolescence.

The shopping list will include 2 new QBs, one in round 1 and one later. Lewis can fit the RB mode but we need another. No more bowling ball I Backs. We need 2 more fast WRs in the mold of DeShawn, guys who would have been seen as more KRs for depth behind Gordon & Cooper as a band aid. And of course guards and DBs. And we'll need a new OC so start the back channel agent semi tampering now.The time to get these resources in now & early off season.

1) I didn't watch the game last night, but assuming this isn't an elaborate effort to mock me, welcome back. : )

2) It will be more amusing to see how this goes on this board than the other one.

3) The one piece of really good news for BORWNS fans who agree is that Joe Banner is supposedly a fellow spreadfan, and he's like our architect or something.

4) The one piece of really good news for BORWNS fans who disagree is that Joe Banner works for someone who might be going to jail, and a new someone would have to mean the axe for Joe, no?

5) POSSIBLE CONTENT: 2 spread QBs for insurance is a good transitional starting point, but I think eventually the line between QB & RB is blurred to the point where you have 5ish players active on gameday with different running & passing skillsets, like COP gone wild.

6) Harbaugh's right, BTW. The NFL's approach to running QBs right now is bullshit. And you know ESPN & Co are going to have a field day pretending to lose their shit every time a star QB in the spread is injured.

I'm not denying there are some changes going on, but don't get too caught up in it just yet. These guys aren't going to be running wild like you might think. Simple economics, nobody is gonna pay mega bucks for a QB and let him get hit by LBs that resemble drunk drivers on the inner-belt bridge coming home from the Basement.

What I do find interesting is how much more on board with this trend the NFC is than the AFC.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:I'm not denying there are some changes going on, but don't get too caught up in it just yet. These guys aren't going to be running wild like you might think. Simple economics, nobody is gonna pay mega bucks for a QB and let him get hit by LBs that resemble drunk drivers on the inner-belt bridge coming home from the Basement.

What I do find interesting is how much more on board with this trend the NFC is than the AFC.

That's the thing FUDU - they DON'T get hit.

QB's get hurt in 2 situations:

1. In the pocket when they don't see it coming;2. When they get greedy and don't slide after the gain. See RG3's knee.

I don’t have interest in national sports stories/teams - Who the freak cares or has time for soap opera stuff involving Manziel, Tebow or Mark freaking Sanchez. Or how wonderful some non-Cleveland player or coach is. Seriously. I figure if it bleeds into stuff I need to know about as a Cleveland fan, you guys will let me know. Thanks.This spread revolution qualifies. Some questions I have:

• Why didn’t the Greatest Show on Turf morph into this trend?• The Kelly version with their roster works. So does the traditional offense when run by Manning/Brady/Rodgers. Would it be easier to get the personnel to run Kelly’s offense than it is to get the QBs that can get to a Super Bowl the “current” way?• Defenses will respond, but how?• jb, that was entertaining. Why isn’t it on the front page, in article form?

I don’t have interest in national sports stories/teams - Who the freak cares or has time for soap opera stuff involving Manziel, Tebow or Mark freaking Sanchez. Or how wonderful some non-Cleveland player or coach is. Seriously. I figure if it bleeds into stuff I need to know about as a Cleveland fan, you guys will let me know. Thanks.This spread revolution qualifies. Some questions I have:

• Why didn’t the Greatest Show on Turf morph into this trend?• The Kelly version with their roster works. So does the traditional offense when run by Manning/Brady/Rodgers. Would it be easier to get the personnel to run Kelly’s offense than it is to get the QBs that can get to a Super Bowl the “current” way?• Defenses will respond, but how?• jb, that was entertaining. Why isn’t it on the front page, in article form?

Well, that's the NFL's current argument, and my sense* is that it's wrong. I think their current ruling on running QBs is likely a combination of their not knowing how else to draw a meaningful distinction and their $$$-colored glasses that led to the QB rules in the first place.

Again, my sense is that the most common instance of serious injury occurs when a planted leg is struck by another player, and every single player on the field is vulnerable. And my sense is that blindside hits, while often violent and spectacular, were not that common of a source of serious injury. A follow-through throwing hand striking another player's helmet feels to me like the most common QB-unique injury, and the rules don't cover that.

My near certainty is that the QB rules, whether based in perception or reality, are intended to protect assets, not players, and that's what's being confused & complicated with more running QBs.

*-would love to see some solid statistical analysis on this someday to sort out the facts from popular impressions formed by sensational or otherwise noteworthy injuries; maybe something like that will be possible someday when there's a sports news network that employs journalists.

Well, that's the NFL's current argument, and my sense* is that it's wrong. I think their current ruling on running QBs is likely a combination of their not knowing how else to draw a meaningful distinction and their $$$-colored glasses that led to the QB rules in the first place.

Again, my sense is that the most common instance of serious injury occurs when a planted leg is struck by another player, and every single player on the field is vulnerable. And my sense is that blindside hits, while often violent and spectacular, were not that common of a source of serious injury. A follow-through throwing hand striking another player's helmet feels to me like the most common QB-unique injury, and the rules don't cover that.

My near certainty is that the QB rules, whether based in perception or reality, are intended to protect assets, not players, and that's what's being confused & complicated with more running QBs.

*-would love to see some solid statistical analysis on this someday to sort out the facts from popular impressions formed by sensational or otherwise noteworthy injuries; maybe something like that will be possible someday when there's a sports news network that employs journalists.

Solid post.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

HoodooMan wrote:My near certainty is that the QB rules, whether based in perception or reality, are intended to protect assets, not players, and that's what's being confused & complicated with more running QBs.

Exactly.

That is the scope. You can either complain in vain or exploit it to advantage.

As for Hiko, he may as well bemoan the death of bump & run or the US steel industry.

Well, that's the NFL's current argument, and my sense* is that it's wrong. I think their current ruling on running QBs is likely a combination of their not knowing how else to draw a meaningful distinction and their $$$-colored glasses that led to the QB rules in the first place.

Again, my sense is that the most common instance of serious injury occurs when a planted leg is struck by another player, and every single player on the field is vulnerable. And my sense is that blindside hits, while often violent and spectacular, were not that common of a source of serious injury. A follow-through throwing hand striking another player's helmet feels to me like the most common QB-unique injury, and the rules don't cover that.

My near certainty is that the QB rules, whether based in perception or reality, are intended to protect assets, not players, and that's what's being confused & complicated with more running QBs.

*-would love to see some solid statistical analysis on this someday to sort out the facts from popular impressions formed by sensational or otherwise noteworthy injuries; maybe something like that will be possible someday when there's a sports news network that employs journalists.

PS - If you're a QB that crosses the line of scrimmage, then you are a RB and should be nailed as such. If you don't want your star QB's to get hit, don't have them run.

Dont hate the playa, hate the game.

Luddite.

Nothing to hate. Completely overblown hyperbole-laden "development".

This super-new-and-exciting (and utterly familiar) offense that looked vastly ordinary in the 2nd half once the Washington offense woke from their slumber is so super-new-and-exciting that everyone will be running it by the weekend. All they need to make it look halfway decent is a Michael Vick, a Shady McCoy, and a Desean Jackson.

But as I said when the Browns were a-courtin' The Chipper, it would be a lot more fun if they got him since then - even though they would still suck - they would at least suck in a hilarious, entertaining way.

Hikohadon wrote:PS - If you're a QB that crosses the line of scrimmage, then you are a RB and should be nailed as such. If you don't want your star QB's to get hit, don't have them run.

I really don't want to derail jb's thread too much here, because I was really hoping to sit back and enjoy watching him bang heads with you & leadpipe on this, BUT...

Those aren't your 10 billion dollars/yr at stake, Hiko. You don't have to parrot their sketchy rationale.

Why not:

"If you're a QB in the pocket and the other team blitzes, then you are a sitting duck and should be nailed as such. If you don't want your star QBs to get hit, block somebody or run the ball."

$$$ <--only reason

I understand the money aspect. I just feel that if you're using a QB like a RB, and these QB's are as big and strong and fast as RB's, AND you're giving them extra protection of the already bullshit QB two-hand tap rules, then you might as well just end the sport because it's already on a fast track to Suckville.

For me, of course. I'm sure a lot of people like fast break 72-68 type games.

Either QB's should be afforded massive extra protection which precludes them from running like RB's, or they should be treated as RB's once they leave the pocket.

Hikohadon wrote:PS - If you're a QB that crosses the line of scrimmage, then you are a RB and should be nailed as such. If you don't want your star QB's to get hit, don't have them run.

I really don't want to derail jb's thread too much here, because I was really hoping to sit back and enjoy watching him bang heads with you & leadpipe on this, BUT...

Those aren't your 10 billion dollars/yr at stake, Hiko. You don't have to parrot their sketchy rationale.

Why not:

"If you're a QB in the pocket and the other team blitzes, then you are a sitting duck and should be nailed as such. If you don't want your star QBs to get hit, block somebody or run the ball."

$$$ <--only reason

I understand the money aspect. I just feel that if you're using a QB like a RB, and these QB's are as big and strong and fast as RB's, AND you're giving them extra protection of the already bullshit QB two-hand tap rules, then you might as well just end the sport because it's already on a fast track to Suckville.

For me, of course. I'm sure a lot of people like fast break 72-68 type games.

Either QB's should be afforded massive extra protection which precludes them from running like RB's, or they should be treated as RB's once they leave the pocket.

Hikohadon wrote:...AND you're giving them extra protection of the already bullshit QB two-hand tap rules, then you might as well just end the sport because it's already on a fast track to Suckville.

I agree with this 100%.

Harbaugh is completely right that the NFL's current ruling is biased and unfair, but yes, expanding QB rules to running QB situations takes something that's already absurd and elevates it to a level of insanity for which we do not currently have an appropriate adjective. So the choice is to either accept the bias of the current rules or get rid of the stupid QB rules for everyone. The r-word might be our only hope.

This super-new-and-exciting (and utterly familiar) offense that looked vastly ordinary in the 2nd half once the Washington offense woke from their slumber is so super-new-and-exciting that everyone will be running it by the weekend. All they need to make it look halfway decent is a Michael Vick, a Shady McCoy, and a Desean Jackson.

But as I said when the Browns were a-courtin' The Chipper, it would be a lot more fun if they got him since then - even though they would still suck - they would at least suck in a hilarious, entertaining way.

Agree. I wanted Kelly because it would have been cool to see if it works in Cleveland. Because why can't Cleveland have the shiny new thing. Not because it's the only possible way to win in the NFL.

It CAN work. Clearly. Maybe better than anything else for a little while. But that's a long stretch from being the ONLY way to win. My guess is that Brees Rogers Manning and Brady will for the most part do OK this season despite the fact that Vick et al CHANGED THE GAME!

And WR that aren't Travis Benjamin only good and RB that aren't the opposite of TR can and will still play in the NFL. More than one way to skin a cat or whtever the fuck.

Something tells me that the powers that be in Indianapolis weren't running around in a panic yesterday gnashing teeth, pulling hair and yelling "What are we going to do now?!?!"

The alarming thing about yesterday was....wait until he get a QB that can REALLY run that thing.

Vick has the athletic part covered. His dimness and inaccuracy will continue to leave plays on the field.

Imagine last night with a not 1st game post injury RG3 or Wilson, Kappy or another mobile QB that can recognize and throw.

Fact of the matter is that 15-25 wasn't all that great shakes for what was available last night. He missed a lot of throws, including a wide open 35 yard TD.

The other side of this that is intersting is defense - how eager are you gonna be to play w/Philly's defense? Understood, when you're winning, everything is great, but a few blips in the road, and defenders being run ragged because of the pace of that offense...

And use this transitional period of NFL football to make yourself some money - cause anyone who watched 104 year old Monte Kiffin being perplexed last year at USC by anything resembling modern football is gonna have little idea what's going on when Philly, SF and teams that are already transformed roll into town. And there's guys like "The Walrus" still hanging around the league with people in high places still feeling they can help a team based on there mid 1980's legacies.

leadpipe wrote:The alarming thing about yesterday was....wait until he get a QB that can REALLY run that thing.

Vick has the athletic part covered. His dimness and inaccuracy will continue to leave plays on the field.

Imagine last night with a not 1st game post injury RG3 or Wilson, Kappy or another mobile QB that can recognize and throw.

Fact of the matter is that 15-25 wasn't all that great shakes for what was available last night. He missed a lot of throws, including a wide open 35 yard TD.

The other side of this that is intersting is defense - how eager are you gonna be to play w/Philly's defense? Understood, when you're winning, everything is great, but a few blips in the road, and defenders being run ragged because of the pace of that offense...

And use this transitional period of NFL football to make yourself some money - cause anyone who watched 104 year old Monte Kiffin being perplexed last year at USC by anything resembling modern football is gonna have little idea what's going on when Philly, SF and teams that are already transformed roll into town. And there's guys like "The Walrus" still hanging around the league with people in high places still feeling they can help a team based on there mid 1980's legacies.

All very true, but they ran the ball 50 million times. That offense is as much about the run as it is the pass, and the NFL is about the pass. So it will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

leadpipe wrote:The other side of this that is intersting is defense - how eager are you gonna be to play w/Philly's defense? Understood, when you're winning, everything is great, but a few blips in the road, and defenders being run ragged because of the pace of that offense...

Really fascinating stuff. Potentially changes the roster composition.

Again, to the point that there can now be more than one way to skin a cat without sucking and praying a franchise QB drops from the heavens.

Plus, Vick came in the league in 2000 as the most athletic QB ever. At age 33? Guessing he' be sucking wind while Mariotta was still breaking a sweat.

leadpipe wrote:The alarming thing about yesterday was....wait until he get a QB that can REALLY run that thing.

Vick has the athletic part covered. His dimness and inaccuracy will continue to leave plays on the field.

Imagine last night with a not 1st game post injury RG3 or Wilson, Kappy or another mobile QB that can recognize and throw.

Fact of the matter is that 15-25 wasn't all that great shakes for what was available last night. He missed a lot of throws, including a wide open 35 yard TD.

The other side of this that is intersting is defense - how eager are you gonna be to play w/Philly's defense? Understood, when you're winning, everything is great, but a few blips in the road, and defenders being run ragged because of the pace of that offense...

And use this transitional period of NFL football to make yourself some money - cause anyone who watched 104 year old Monte Kiffin being perplexed last year at USC by anything resembling modern football is gonna have little idea what's going on when Philly, SF and teams that are already transformed roll into town. And there's guys like "The Walrus" still hanging around the league with people in high places still feeling they can help a team based on there mid 1980's legacies.

All very true, but they ran the ball 50 million times. That offense is as much about the run as it is the pass, and the NFL is about the pass. So it will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

leadpipe wrote:The alarming thing about yesterday was....wait until he get a QB that can REALLY run that thing.

Vick has the athletic part covered. His dimness and inaccuracy will continue to leave plays on the field.

Imagine last night with a not 1st game post injury RG3 or Wilson, Kappy or another mobile QB that can recognize and throw.

Fact of the matter is that 15-25 wasn't all that great shakes for what was available last night. He missed a lot of throws, including a wide open 35 yard TD.

The other side of this that is intersting is defense - how eager are you gonna be to play w/Philly's defense? Understood, when you're winning, everything is great, but a few blips in the road, and defenders being run ragged because of the pace of that offense...

And use this transitional period of NFL football to make yourself some money - cause anyone who watched 104 year old Monte Kiffin being perplexed last year at USC by anything resembling modern football is gonna have little idea what's going on when Philly, SF and teams that are already transformed roll into town. And there's guys like "The Walrus" still hanging around the league with people in high places still feeling they can help a team based on there mid 1980's legacies.

All very true, but they ran the ball 50 million times. That offense is as much about the run as it is the pass, and the NFL is about the pass. So it will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

Well, here's where some people can mistake what's going on. The excellent offenses pretty much all run the ball well. There are two caveats 1. You don't need to waste investment on a big time back to do it and 2. THEY SET UP THE RUN WITH THE PASS - the adage that no longer applies, that many fossils still seem to believe, is you set up the pass with the run.

New England and New Orleans are recent examples of top tier offenses that provide pretty ordinary rushers with mismatch edges. Philly is exasberating this.

They ran the ball 50 million times yesterday cause there was nobody really defending it. And the few hangin' around were dog tired.

D coordinators will go to work on this no doubt, but it's very real ILO.

You know what makes good offenses? Good players. It's a gimmick that will be addressed throughout the league by mid season. And when that happens, good players will still be winning.

In 2 years when defensive rosters are full of 180lb DBs, some one will run the Wing T and it will be the greatest thing since adult diaper wipes.

Are the Patriots, Pack, Saints or Broncos beating down Philly's door for Vick, or any other QB for that matter? Of course not. They have good players.

Jimmys and Joes.

That's a bit disingenuous EW since those teams A) don't need a new/different QB right now and B) they don't run an offense that requires what Vick brings to the table (in part b/c of A to begin with). Now if the Pats/Broncos are without TB/PM in 2 years you bet your bottom dollar they explore such an approach if they can't plug n play another QB into their team make up.

For S&Gs right now the list of top QBs probably looks like this:RogersTB/PMBrees/PMLuckRG3/Kaepernick

in large part b/c of the track record the top 4 names bring to the table. In 3 years whether TB or PM are playing or not, that list most likely won't look like that at all. Probably 3-4 young guys top the list with Brees rounding out top 5, with an Eli or Ryan.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

People do realize that Luck and Rogers are daaamn good runners, right?

You don't need Braxton/RG3 to run these spread concepts. The entire point of the Meyer spread is to create numbers advantages by forcing the defense to have to account for multiple players in each look. Kelly's concepts aren't that different. If you have a QB athletic enough to keep the backside DE at home you have a QB that can run the spread.

BTW: the best point in this thread award goes to lead, because watching NFL SUPER COORDINATOR MONTE KIFFIN!#%!! try to defend real offenses was HILARIOUS.

You can thank Manning and his inability to beat the Pats when they played real defense. Whiny cunt ruined the integrity of the sport and his rule changes have just been expanded upon as fantasy football and NFL FUN!!! have made the fans desire to see shootouts reign supreme.

You can thank Manning and his inability to beat the Pats when they played real defense. Whiny cunt ruined the integrity of the sport and his rule changes have just been expanded upon as fantasy football and NFL FUN!!! have made the fans desire to see shootouts reign supreme.

Wilson might be better than most give him credit for, but he isn't better than Luck, maybe as good. But you can see the bigger ceiling Luck has while he plays. Wilson's ability to be a pocket passer is under rated as equally as Luck's ability to run.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"