Zimmerman: Why I am so Critical of SPD Investigator Chris Serino

Some of you have expressed support for SPD Investigator Chris Serino. I respectfully disagree.

I believe he should have been fired for tampering with witnesses during the first night of the investigation by “correcting” witnesses who had identified Trayvon Martin as the person who uttered the terrified shriek. He informed them that the investigation had established that George Zimmerman uttered it. This is absolutely unacceptable.

No competent professional investigator should ever under any circumstances correct a witness’s testimony to support the police theory of the case. This is police misconduct and it is one of the major causes of wrongful convictions of innocent people.

We see it most often when the police have a particular suspect in mind and attempt to build a case against him, despite a lack of evidence, by “correcting” eyewitnesses who identified someone else and suggesting that their investigation has identified a different suspect as the perpetrator of the crime. Eager to assist the police to arrest and convict the “right” suspect, the eyewitnesses will often change their minds and identify the person whom the police have selected as the correct choice. The person is convicted and occasionally sentenced to death, assuming it’s a death penalty case. Years later, however, the defendant is exonerated by post-conviction DNA testing.

In such a case, “correcting” the witness or suggesting whom the witness should select causes multiple harms. The first, of course, is the wrongful conviction of an innocent person and the resulting destruction of their life. The second harm is even worse because it allows the perpetrator to remain free to commit more crimes. Therefore, the practice of “correcting” witness identifications or testimony to support the police theory of a case against a particular suspect has been universally condemned and every police officer in the country has been warned not to do it.

Nevertheless, some police officers with the occasional approval of a prosecutor have persisted in this discredited practice to make sure they get the “right” bad guy. So the wrongful convictions keep on happening and the innocent person languishes in prison or is executed, if it’s a death penalty case. The possibility of a post conviction exoneration by a DNA test is only available in cases where there is biological evidence to test. Most cases do not have biological evidence to test. Wrongfully convicted innocent people in those cases have no remedy except by filing a direct appeal or a habeas corpus petition. Their efforts are rarely successful because they have no way to prove their innocence.

I believe Serino may have saved his job by unexpectedly filing the capias recommending that State’s Attorney, Norm Wolfinger charge George Zimmerman with manslaughter. His request was rejected because Wolfinger had already decided not to charge Zimmermman. Nevertheless, Serino looked good for recommending Zimmerman be charged.

I give Serino a lot of credit for determining which way the wind was blowing and adjusting quickly to the shift in direction.

That talent enabled him to shift from aggressively steering the investigation in Zimmerman’s favor by tampering with witnesses that first night regarding who was screaming to interrogating Zimmerman during the next few days in a manner that allowed him to plausibly tell his supervisors that he was assisting Zimmerman to get his self-defense claim together, but nevertheless leaving him room to claim that he was just leading him on to build trust and get him to make damaging admissions, if the wind changed and people demanded to know why he was being so supportive and agreeable while he was interrogating Zimmerman.

Seems to me that Serino is a master politician in the department capable of convincing everyone he is their loyal friend even as he holds his cards close to his chest and quickly adjusts to align himself with whomever holds the power at any particular time.

I do not trust people like that and one of the primary reasons why my opinion is so harsh is due to the way he questioned Tracy Martin about the terrified shriek.

In the same interview when he showed him a photograph of Trayvon’s dead body and asked him if he could identify it, which is standard procedure, he played a recording of the 911 call with the terrified shriek in the background and asked him if he was 100% certain that was Trayvon screaming.

This was not the right time or the proper way to question him about the shriek. Wanting to help the investigation but obviously shocked and dismayed by the completely unexpected news that his son had been shot to death in Brandy Green’s supposedly safe gated community, Tracy Martin answered “No.”

Instead of waiting for another time after Tracy Martin had adjusted to the shock of Trayvon’s death and was prepared to focus on providing complete information about Trayvon, Serino ambushed him with a question demanding certainty in the form of a specific “yes” or “no” answer. In my opinion, the form and timing of that question strongly suggests that Serino was fishing for a no answer instead of just asking him to listen carefully and indicate whether he thought Trayvon uttered the scream.

Serino must have known that Trayvon very likely uttered the shriek because it sounds like a young person screaming in terror and it ended abruptly with the fatal gunshot. Because Zimmerman had the gun and fired the fatal shot, he had no reason to shriek in terror and stop shrieking at the same instant that he pulled the trigger.

If Tracy Martin had been provided with a reasonable opportunity to collect his wits and think about it, he would have realized the same thing. In fact he has changed his mind and stated that he is now certain that Trayvon uttered that awful shriek.

But the damage has been done and now he can reasonably expect to be confronted at trial with his initial denial and accused of changing his mind to get back at Zimmerman for killing his son. Is it not awful enough to have to reopen wounds and testify about losing your beloved son? Why should he also have to endure being called a liar because, given the nature of the question he was asked, he at first he denied that Trayvon was screaming. He will fear that the jury will not believe him and he will suffer terrible anxiety and guilt that he failed his son when his son needed him. If Zimmerman is acquitted, he will likely believe to the end of his days that Zimmerman would have been convicted, if only he had not failed his son.

This situation never should have happened. Serino did an awful thing to a father in terrible pain by taking advantage of his vulnerability to obtain a “no” answer that would support Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense at a time in the investigation when it should have been apparent to him that Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense was falling apart. I am shocked by his lack of empathy and willingness to take advantage of a grieving father to get what he wanted.

An investigator is never supposed to be an advocate defending a suspect in a homicide investigation, particularly in the early stages of the investigation before much is known. That is inexcusable and he is fortunate that I will not be cross examining him about how he conducted that investigation.

He certainly made the right decision when he decided to retain counsel and the other police officials including Chief Bill Lee would be well advised to do the same.

They had better not count on Serino refusing to turn on them if push comes to shove and he is accused of a state or federal crime based on how he conducted the investigation.

I do not believe he will go down without taking others down with him and, in fairness to Serino, he was probably ordered to do what he did.

Stay tuned for continuing developments because this fascinating aspect of the case is heating up.

The White House may disable user accounts, remove associated signatures and remove petitions created or signed by user accounts that it has reasonable belief do not satisfy the above rules. The White House may also block access from IP addresses that it has reasonable belief are using automated systems or bulk processes to create multiple user accounts or petition signatures.

I predict that neither our petition nor their perdition will make it to the White House but I think ours will serve to really inject some much-needed discouragement into their camp and hopefully into Cheorge himself. He needs to get real.

Same here, but I got the impression that they believed we would take their petition laying down and would not create one of our own. Which is why they didn’t need to make reality a point of their request. It was just a “show” petition to irk us.

Well, now we’ve made a showing and we’re asking for serious relief that is not only possible, but is the same as the process already underway. It can’t hurt to have those investigators to know that there is support behind them. Best yet, if we do reach the threshold, the White House has promised an open and public response! So, it’s not for naught that we struggle.

LLMPapa’s incredibly moving video is a real tearjerker, I’ve already posted it to a few places, and will as I find more ops around the net, post more.

@LLMPAPA, the above video is very heart warming and touching in an effort to seek justice for Trayvon at the state level as well as federal. Trayvon’s cries for help went unanswered because, people didn’t want to get involved. there were many who heard his cries for help that night, yet they turned a deaf ear to his cries. shame on all of them. I am more than willing to do anything I can to make sure he receives justice. RIP my most precious Trayvon RIP.

Hello Professor, I didn’t mean to leave you out. None of our voices would be heard if it were not for you. Thank you so much for caring enough for Trevon and his family. Please forgive my mis-spelling, I don’t know how to use spell check yet. Working on it tho.

Ladystclaire, I’ll have to jump in here and say I don’t consider Cheorge’s life to be worthless yet. Just imagine that he gets convicted, fights the sentence, gets 25 to life, takes an appeal, loses the appeal, takes the next appeal, loses that, files for post-conviction relief, gets divorced, loses the post-conviction relief action, files a federal habeas corpus, gets it denied, files a federal circuit appeal of the denial, wins a remand, gets the habeas back to the district court, gets a hearing, has a full hearing, gets two witnesses to change their stories so they sound less damning than they originally sounded at trial, learns that Shellie remarried and had six kids, loses his hearing on the habeas appeal, appeals that again, loses, becomes very angry at the chaplain in the prison, convinces himself that this is all about the racists not believing god’s plan, totally freaks out and loses his grip on reality completely, gets sent into the psych ward, gets medicated, lies in a near vegetative state of depression for two or three weeks, finds that someone is being kind to him in the hospital wing of the prison, revisits (under the influence of the medication) his past angry resentful irrational rages, takes comfort in a few simple prayers or songs that he hears while hospitalized, tries to build himself up from a state of broken misery, sees a shrink who says to him something along the lines of, “George, it was not all outside forces that brought you here; you DO have control of some of your thoughts and feelings and reactions; you CAN start to see things differently if you try.” He makes a tiny effort. Someone rewards that tiny effort. He makes another tiny effort…at the end of 25 years, he may actually be able to face himself, his own situation, and his own past. Who knows? Although not very often, things like this HAVE occasionally happened in the world. It is not a very BIG chance, but it is not zero.

The only way Chorge’s life will have any meaning is if he is sent to prison as an example of what happens to gun-carrying wannabe cops if they profile, follow and kill an innocent person. I hope he has some sort of awakening, but I think he has a severe personality disorder that can’t be cured, just repressed by heavy-duty medication.

@jm. Thank you for your reply. I signed up just like you said and it worked. I am petitioner number 79. Thank you so much. Now all my friends and family will get the e-mail and sign also. You guys are doing a great job. Keep it up. You make america proud taking a stand for justice.

I am generally hopeful that human nature improves with knowledge and experience — but not in GZ’s case. He is already convinced that his actions in taking the life of another human being was God’s plan. When people justify their sinful acts by blaming God, they are convinced that they know God and their belief is superior to others.

Hi Mary! I think I know what the problem is, you may have to create an account first… The same thing happened to me too… Try it… It should work.. But, you’ll have to verify by clicking the link in your email after creating your account… After you click the link, you should be able to sign… Hope this was helpful…

@Factsfirst. Thanks for the reply. jm just told me how to do it and it worked. Shucks, I feel like one of the gang now. I have followed this blog from the beginning, and I feel like I know each and everyone of you. Thank you all. I just know in my heart that justice is going to be served for Trevon. If JZ does not go to prison, I know that God will punish him, which could be way worse for him. As for all the hateful JZ supporters, they will get there due punishment also.

I wrote those words reflexively as I tried to boil down the case to it’s simplest elements as quickly as I could. With LLMPapa’s background and music behind those words my eyes got misty wet.
LLMPapa is a master videographer, you realize it when you see this masterpiece he created.

If this concerted effort doesn’t get us the 25,000 signatures in time, there has to be something seriously amiss. “Keep spreading the news!” (Sinatra lol)

Hello everyone. I have been reading your blog since the beginning, but never commented because of the crazy people on the other blogs. I am old school and I believe they just might blow up my computer. I just don’t trust them. I never read anything from the treehouse, too painful. I’m commenting now because I feel I just have to sign the petition. Please tell me what the problem might be, because when I put my e-mail address in, it will not accept my password. I cannot go any further. I do want to sign the petition and advise my friends and family to do the same. BTW I love and respect everyone on this blog. Especially Lonnie Star, Malisha,and Xana. Thank you all for hanging in there for Treyvon. from Walley (not my real name).

Off topic, I guess since O’money and crew couldn’t find any dirt on Trayvon from his school records, they are demanding access to the pin number of his cell phone. Trayvon Benjamin Martin is the “VICTIM” in this case, yet he is being treated like a criminal by this defense team. is there no limit to what these people are doing to this poor kid and his family? O’money is going to ask Judge Nelson to have the state turn over info that I don’t think they themselves have. this is the American justice system at it’s lowest, considering what the defense is doing to Trayvon and his family and they need to be made to “STOP” because, no other family of a murdered child has been treated with such disrespect.

Strangely, and horribly, this is the way sexually abused children’s protective parents are treated in state agencies and courts. As soon as a child accuses someone of molesting her (or him), the family who supports the allegation and protects the child are subjected to a violation of ALL their civil rights, not just Fourth Amendment, but all the others as well. Not a stone is left unturned. If the mother ever went to the doctor for a hangnail she is either a “sick woman” or a “hypochondriac” therefore turning her either into a liar making false allegations or an evil perpetrator of “Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome” deliberately hurting her own child to get attention. O’Mara knows these techniques because he does divorce law. This is the famous “make the victim demonstrate perfection or everything’s a lie and you get all the spoils of war.” Nothing new. Disgusting. But it’s a form of disgust that has been with us a long time.

O’money is going to ask Judge Nelson to have the state turn over info that I don’t think they themselves have.

First, it says that MOM is unsuccessful in getting Facebook and Twitter to turn over Trayvon’s and DeeDee’s social media. Going beyond information obtained from the CIM card on Trayvon’s phone is a wish to see if there are emails or internet access.

Second, the State did not conduct investigation into Trayvon’s phone beyond their capability. If MOM wants more than the State has, he has to get it himself. That means hiring someone qualified to do so. I suspect that if he motions the court for an order that Judge Nelson will instruct MOM to hire someone qualified to pull that information without removing the phone from the State’s possession, and turn whatever info is gathered to the State as well.

Hello, My name is Mary Davis. I tried to sign petition, but it would not take my password. Somehow my e-mail and password are not connecting. Any ideas how I can sign petition. I am also forwarding the petition to my family and friends. Thanks for all you have done for the justice for Treyvon and his family. BTW you are my favorite. When Lonnie Starr speaks, every body listens. Laugh Laugh

I signed up for an account and within a minute got a confirmation e-mail that included a password. After I got the password I signed in to the petition with my e-mail address and then copied and pasted the password from the confirmation e-mail. Hope this helps.

I don’t see where it ever asked me for a password, even though they sent me on in an email after I signed up. I couldn’t find a place to either change it or enter it. Here try this link and see if it will let you sign http://wh.gov/IXcy
Otherwise try registering again with another name and see what choices it offers you.

Everybody FB it and twitter it. I think this is a hoot; haven’t had so much fun since I had a hysterical laugh about “Black Friday.” Young Turks, Grio, those guys who make the videos, all those techy types.

Ours is a one day count, while they’ve been at it for several days.
If this keeps up we’ll pass them tomorrow. At 150 signatures both petitions will become visible on the site and searchable. I can imagine they’re getting a little bump up, because there’s a competing petition.

Wow we’re at 13 already, if we go high enough fast enough we might even make the news. Keep spreading the link near and far to the blogs and boards. Bet there’s a lot of people out there who want to make a mark for justice. Don’t forget twitter and facebook.

We’re up to 20 now. I just sent the link to an email list I’m on, via the list there are thousands of connections, so we’ll see. The proZ petition is languishing. If they’ve spotted this one, they’ve got to be very demoralized as fast as sign ups are coming in. Just can’t wait till we hit 150 and then we get posted on the site where everyone can see it and search for it.

Penile Plethysmograph — OK, I let myself put a little joke in there. It is a real test, that allegedly helps determine if an adult male experiences sexual arousal when shown pornographic sketches (not photographs) of unclothed children, of various ages in various poses. It’s like a polygraph designed to measure arousal; you can guess the rest. I have a funny story to tell on this count.

I was in Iowa with a mother who had lost custody of her daughter because she reported possible sexual abuse of the child at age 3, and the child protective services named the father as the suspect and investigated him. A memo was in the file from the social worker to a guardian ad litem telling him that the JUDGE had hoped he would be able to make these charges go away, and sure enough, the whole agency turned on the mother and said she lied and that the hospital’s photographs of her daughter’s torn hymen were simply due to the application of Desitin, the diaper cream. Then the mother was thrown into a custody battle against the father and his lawyer, the guardian ad litem and his crew, and the social service agency itself, and their lawyers. She asked me to write questions for her to use in cross examination. She tried asking the father to submit to a plethysmograph and the judge ordered her to ask no more questions about that and wouldn’t let him answer. So I wrote some questions for every other witness that had the word “plethora” in the question. None of those questions had to do with plethysmographs. EVERY SINGLE TIME she was asking any of those unrelated questions, all three lawyers leaped to their feet and screamed, “OBJECTION!” and the judge sustained without letting Kitty explain.

Kitty took an appeal and wrote out the questions that she had prepared (she had gotten permission from the judge, before the trial began, to use prepared questions because she was pro se and said she couldn’t remember all her questions) and showed that the objections had been sustained when there was nothing at all objectionable about the questions! She argued to the appeals court that the judge had not allowed her to ask ordinary questions and as a result, had handicapped her at trial so seriously that she had to have a new trial.

(She still lost the appeal; that was a case where the fix was pretty firm.)

So I learned what a plethysmograph test was. The reason it is not commonly known is that most in-family pedophiles are very successful at preventing it from being used, and most out-of-family pedophiles would not request it (for they would fail) and the prosecutors don’t need it (because children are actually believed when a non-family molester abuses them).

I suspected that was what the test was about (in a general way) but I didn’t understand how it fit in with the GZ case. BUT if you recall, GZ did love to say he was “mounted” so perhaps there is some pedophilic/homoerotic fantasy happening for GZ. Your story is actually sad. I would advocate the mother just shooting that SOB. One less child molester in the world is a good thing.

Cielo, I personally got involved in 257 of those cases like the one in Iowa. We lost 251 out of 257. Our justice system is prepared to think scuzzy strangers are child molesters, and now they even believe priests can be, but they will not agree to legally determine that a father or step-father is until long after the child is grown up and adult addictions and behaviors can be backwards-ascribed to incest. It is impossible to deal with this problem. Those cases make the Zimmerman case look like a paragon of virtue, except for the fact that usually the child is not killed, only harmed. In fact, one of the things the activists have said is that “we can’t prove a crime because there’s no dead body,” and that is one reason the Trayvon Martin case got me so infuriated: HERE we HAD a dead body and they wouldn’t admit a crime. 👿

JM, analyzing the words and body language is exactly what I would love to see Yarbrough do. They also have a fabulous program now called the FACS — Facial Action Coding System — which was described by Malcolm Gladwell in his fabulous scholarly article, THE NAKED FACE, that could be used to totally deconstruct and evaluate the Hannity Interview, OMG OMG! 😎

It will take me awhile to review the tape in which Serino and Zimmerman discuss the word, “punks” but I’m looking forward to it and will get back to you with what fine.

In the meantime, I want to say a couple of things about the “coons, goons, punks” controversy.

I hear the word, “coons” on the NEN tape. In any case, some have said we won’t know which word he used because Zimmerman is the only one who knows and he’s not going to tell us the truth in any case. I respectfully disagree.

I’m no computer expert but I believe everything that was said by Trayvon while he was screaming and pleading for his life and by Zimmerman could be analyzed by experts.

I’m guessing the court would not allow my next suggestion but there is another way to analyze this. Any person with a PhD In cultural anthropology and even BA students in any intensive and rigorous cultural anthropology program have a language of written symbols which notate simply the sounds of spoken language. This system is used to record unknown languages and especially languages and dialects which are becoming existinct later study.

The sounds Zimmerman made could simply be recorded by notation and and, as it were, read back. This system avoids ascribing meaning and thus any subjective, cultural, or political bias.

I don’t expect any cultural anthropologist will do this but it could be done.

Wow, Dan Q, I would LOVE to see that happen! Not only that, but I have a few gradute theses I’d like to see written to do further analysis of things in this case. For starters —

For someone’s Ph.D. in clinical psychology I would like them to go interview all the folks who knew Trayvon down in Miami Beach and do what is called a “psychological autopsy” of Trayvon Martin, so we can really understand what George did that night and how it affected this kid before he was killed;

I would like a complete and total voice analysis of every exemplar of George’s voice they have, from the 50 “suspicious person calls” to the NEN to the interviews to the Hannity to whatever we have wherever his voice appears;

I would like someone to hire John Yarbrough, formerly a profiler with the LA County Sheriff’s Department, to analyze the whole Hannity tape and to give us all the information available on Cheorge from that tape; I would also like him to do the same with the police videos from the first interview through the “re-enactment” through the voice-stress-test video through the — whatever else they have.

I’d love to see forensic psychiatric testing on Cheorge, including the MMPI-2-RF, the PAI, the Validity Indicator Profile, and a battery of “projective tests” like the Rorschach and so forth. Worked up by a highly qualified team of forensic psychologists or forensic psychiatrists.

I’d like to see a real polygraph performed on Cheorge by a seriously good polygrapher. I’d like to see him take a penile plethysmograph too, what the hell.

Wow, this is working up to a lot of study. I wonder if there could be a DOJ National Institute of Justice grant to do this kind of work. Or some other justice foundation in the nonprofit world. Let’s see what else I’ll put on my Christmas wish list.

Oh yeah, I want someone to study the two bozos who represented George before they both bailed on the day (or the day before, I can’t remember) Cheorge was charged. I think they knew Cheorge intended to run, and they didn’t want to be blamed, and then he put his getaway stuff into the car and drove out to meet with some cop he thought was gonna help him fix things, and instead, he ended up walking into a trap and getting arrested. That’s, of course, why he felt so “betrayed.” It was a very peculiar set of events. When the bozos bailed, I immediately told a friend of mine, “shit, he’s running.” Then he turned himself in early, so nothing really made sense. Why not stay with Shellie until the day he was ordered to turn himself in? Then he wouldn’t have to say all that stuff to her secretly on the phone about the extra passport and the money and all…

The more I think of in this case, the more I want to have a huge team of top experts looking into this and that, and every trail leads me to two more trails that beg for discovery. All because some f*cking punk tried to satisfy the whining baby buried (shallow) in his uncompensated personality by grabbing his trusty side-arm and going out and killing a kid.

Malisha says: “I would like someone to hire John Yarbrough, formerly a profiler with the LA County Sheriff’s Department, to analyze the whole Hannity tape and to give us all the information available on Cheorge from that tape…..”

I am not a professional but I viewed most of the Hannity tape and I have come to the conclusion that Cheorge Zimmerman is as loony as they come and anyone who has viewed that interview and still supports Cheorge is just as loony.

If anyone doubts my loony diagnosis from Hannity interview, check this out where the bozo thanks the “masses” for supporting him (for killing an innocent black teen?)

I agree that Cheorge is an unbalanced individual and likeminded people are usually drawn to each other

It is like their deep seated hate and anger and looniness makes them so blind to the truth

The worst is the fact that Cheorge has a probably a few Terrabytes of bad history, yet, according to them, Trayvon is the thug LMAO

I think the worst is when they try to call Trayvon a thief when the jewelry he had was not stolen, and the police even verified that the jewelry was not stolen and had given back the jewelry to Trayvon after investigation

Logic seems to be fall them but I blame it on their Zimmernuttiness

What trips me out the most is how this looney Cheorge kept running around so long considering his few thousand terrabytes of bad history, including violence, harassment, rape, molestation, thievery, manipulation, scamming, refusal to honor thy word, craziness, demented perceptions, gang affiliations, crime affiliations, crazy redneck attitude

Jun says: “What trips me out the most is how this looney Cheorge kept running around so long.”

I think his Zimmerman’s family influence and the family’s pride kept Cheorge running around so long just as they continue to support their loony murdering Cheorge. They don’t want to admit Chorge is a loon as it is a reflection on the family

While that sounds all well and good it would be overkill. The psychological make up and characteristics of people and teenagers, just isn’t all that wide a spectrum. You have your passives, your actives and your hyperactives. Rarely do you find thugs among your passive personalities. You can still find criminals there, but they’re more of the scheming, brainy types than given to physical assaults and such. While the active criminal types are more physical assault types. The main difference is that these types of thugs, “broadcast” their intentions and capabilities long before they strike, because they pay little attention to social rules. They are wild and the worst of them will attack adults as well, but then, they have a history of violence that is almost always “visible” in their social interactions.

Trayvon does not fit the mold of a violent personality, he does not display rebellion or violence in his social interactions. Consequently we can know that when GZ presented, this child had nothing but fear and flight to defend himself with.

I would like a complete and total voice analysis of every exemplar of George’s voice they have, from the 50 “suspicious person calls” to the NEN to the interviews to the Hannity to whatever we have wherever his voice appears;

Malisha, that’s exactly how it could be done. Every speaker has his phonetic specifics. I have to admit though, I am not up to this task, I never paid much attention to purely linguistic studies beyond the extend to which I had I needed the credits. My interest was always literature.

But strictly, maybe one could ask a prof in phonetics to assign the task to his students, at least as a basis that in turn can be analyzed by the respective prof.

I’d like even more your idea about forensic psychology, or at least to the extend I understood what it is about. Maybe Prof. Leatherman can invite “our friend” from Jonathan Turley’s list and tell us in a short article, what can and what cannot be done.

I’d like to see a real polygraph performed on Cheorge by a seriously good polygrapher. I’d like to see him take a penile plethysmograph too, what the hell.

When I was in the US visiting a my best girlfriend told me about her own experience of having to surrender to at that time real state of the art “lie detectors”. It felt very different from what Georgie had to go through.

All people in the place she worked in with access to “the money” were tested. The culprit which was ultimately found out, since he made a slight mistake, had passed this absolutely up to date ritual, like anybody else before. The time was 1981, I don’t know what happened meanwhile to this type of devices. I am aware of the fact that a former military man in US intelligence up to high security tests trusts the tests done in this field. But I have no idea what type of tests are used in whatever levels, possibly for money reasons, or if they are all the same.

Fact is, to a certain extend GZ convinced himself, that whatever he thought about Trayvon Martin on that night, or more precisely whatever happened after confirmed his initial “suspicion”. To what extend has he arranged the events of the night accordingly in his head, and thus may pass, since he believes it to be true, as latest strategy by Team Zimmerman suggests, or simply is the perfect liar. They seem to exist.

Has anyone ever tested the contexts in which “the little boyish” voice of Zimmerman shows traits of insecurity? I pondered that, while listening to Singleton’s interview again. Shellie seems such a trigger word, or as he talks about her “my wife”. Now Shellie also discovered the bicycle that was stolen from Georgie, incidentally by a black boy in the neighborhood, with Georgie not recognizing it, since it had a different saddle..

“My wife was frightened”, and I had to show I am a man protecting her. Notice how often he mentions her or in his narrative. Where else does he show traits of insecurity, voice-wise?

Dan, strictly you don’t need to be a cultural anthropologist to do that. That’s a basic part of linguistics, phonetics. Among the credits you need in every language you study at least over here on the lower pure language level, if you do not specialize in linguistics, you have to phonetically transcribe the precise pronunciation of the respective speaker. We could choose between US and UK speakers at the time.

I have to admit, that I was absolutely puzzled by Diwataman’s visualization attempts. They make absolutely no sense to me, as I said before, if I trust my ears. I was pleased that Serino seems to trust his ears more than the “phonetic” alternative Georgie offered.

Besides, my basic impression is that he tries to avoid the only phonetic alternative that may make slight sense: goons (no way the sound with which the word starts is a bilabial plosive!). it’s not perfectly close but still “goons”, or the name Sanford gangs seem to use for themselves would be at least slightly closer than punks. I wondered, if during his studies in criminal science he became aware of the word goons, which seem mainly African American’s, with the exception of one Hispanic gang. See page 115 second discovery.

The SPD police expert mentions one gang with one white member, now interestingly if you look closely at the event GZ keeps referring to at Taaffe’s house, the one arrested a couple of days later Emmanuel Burgess, may in fact have been the guy Zimmerman saw, and followed. He talks about a bomber hat, the police reports talks of a beanie cap. And this guy is, to use Serino’s words black, on black, on black Or at least Zimmerman got the reports and thought he was the same. The problem is the printed pajama pants he discribed don’t fit either. Burgess indeed wears black, on black on black, to repeat Serino.

Now try to get this into your head. He saw a “supect”, who he thought was the same suspect arrested a couple of days later and Zimmerman’s easy line of thought was that any guy that appeared next to Taaffe’s house, of similar age and “similar clothes”, well gray instead of black, but nevertheless, must be similarly suspicious. It may even mean, you are dead if you don’t realize what this guy has on his mind, and in any way respond wrongly. But how should you know what the right response would be confronted with a simple mind like George?

Okay, here is the thing with the word for me. I very clearly heard coons. I trust my ears. I make a living with them and have as a medical transcriptionist for over 20 years.

When I first heard about it, not having heard the clip, I was prepared to hear goons. Goons made sense when you think of the **cking, the G from the **ckinG runs into the next word and it could very easily sound like goons.

So that is what I was prepared to hear.

You know, when we do QA and someone can’t hear a word, we do not ask for a s/l (sounds like) because if they tell you what it sounded like, it taints your hearing and that is what gets in your head and that is often what you will hear, so we would just ask them to leave a blank so we could listen for ourselves.

That is why I was so sure that I was going to hear goons. It made sense with the last sound of the last word and the first sound of the next word and the s/l was planted in my head.

However, it is clearly coons. There is no meshing of the sounds.

I would stake my career on it. And I bet you if you asked 100 medical transcriptionists you would get the same answer. I trust my ears. I have to. That is how I make my living. It is a skill – and believe me, when you have listened to mush-mouth doctors, many of whom are ESL, dictating on airplanes with food in their mouth or in loud hospital stations with phones ringing, people talking, intercom calling codes, you develop a skill you can trust. I trust my ears.

@Rachael
May I ask you to do a hearing experiment for me. If you have time, could you please listen to NEN call. Listen forward from about 2:35. At about 2:44 something is said underbreath while the operator is talking . I hear two words, first word Shit, tell me what you hear as the second word.

Put in that context, I trust your ears, too! To be honest I could not distinguish the sounds. As a school teacher, I focus on what the meaning is that is being conveyed instead of the actual words. Plus, per my brothers and others, I’m losing some hearing ability as well. 😦

@Brown – Maybe I’m not listening in the right place because the only shit I hear is shit, he’s running. I don’t hear anything under his breath at the 2:44 mark – I do hear an ummm kind of in the background, but it is more like a sound, no word. So maybe I’m not listening in the right place.

Well maybe I should just tell you what I hear. You said in your post that you were ready to hear goons, but clearly heard c**ns. I believe you can judge for yourself. So let me know if you want me to tell you, but you are on target with the um sound.

Brown, there is something somewhere, I gave up on too. Although I am not a native speaker, I think almost everybody would. I have this vague memory I searched the web if someone actually got it. I checked quite a few transcriptions to find out. But it can’t be the passage you ask Rachael to listen to, that’s clearly what she says, background noise.

Only the wind, you know, as Georgie Porgie, tells us it is. He was just leisurely walking around, maybe looking at houses, for a number? Exactly what made Trayyvon suspicious, leisurely walking around, remember.

I would stake my career on it. And I bet you if you asked 100 medical transcriptionists you would get the same answer. I trust my ears. I have to.

Rachael, I too hear “coons” but then, I asked why would GZ say that he said “punks.” My conclusion is that if he did not say “coons,” he said “poons,” and “poons” is the equivalent of “punks.”

While “punks” is not a racial hate-word, it is a prison hate-word. If I may be blunt, the words punk and poon both denote a young, straight male who is cowardly and allows other men to have anal sex with him.

Consider the context in which GZ used the term. Trayvon ran. GZ construed that as a cowardly act.

Being younger and inexperienced, GZ placed himself in a controlling position of making Trayvon a “punk” if he caught-up with him.

I am in a hurry, I know that is no excuse, but If I may add a proofread passage, I hope I find the correct link:

To what extend has he arranged the events of the night accordingly in his head and thus may pass, since he believes it to be true, every lie detector that is state of art in the US today, as latest strategy by Team Zimmerman seem to suggest, or simply is the perfect liar. They seem to exist.

The latest passage to me suggest, that at least O’Mara maintains the possibly, and he should as his lawyer, if what George tells is true, than there must be a hidden story about an aggressive Trayvon Martin.

The problem with that approach is that from the time of 15 on I was on serial suspension in highschool.. If my own worst enemy at the time a authoritarian headmaster, that did not allow girls to wear trousers in summer, I hated skirts, would have been allowed to testify about me. It could have turned out a disaster for me.

on another blog, I have been asked to not talk about myself, I know I know it could feel boring, but there you go, I obviously judge this case from my own experience.

Hey Leander, who told you not to talk about yourself? I think the small pictures you have let us see help us understand more of your take on this event that took place so far from you, but also, lets us judge our own judging by the judging of an “outsider.” Keep it up. If anybody disagrees, tell them, “Malisha said I should do this so she can figure out more about the case from the pro-Trayvon ether that covers the whole world.” 😀

Investigate George Zimmerman for Civil Rights violation in his killing of Trayvon Martin

A Neighborhood Watch Captain went on an illegal patrol and profiled an innocent child as a rogue, thug criminal, who he decided, without reason, deserved to be followed in the darkness and when he caught him he questioned and killed him. His only reason given for his erroneous beliefs was that the child was black and did not belong in the neighborhood. To defend himself with claims of “stand your ground” and “self defense” he concocted a series of demonstrable lies, claiming the child tried to take away the weapon he himself carried everywhere he went and that he was beaten to within an inch of his life, by Trayvon Martin, who had no dna or other trace evidence on his hands. Even while Zimmerman was covered with his own blood. Evidence that Martin never touched Zimmerman at all.

We the People allows anyone to create and sign petitions asking the Obama Administration to take action on a range of issues. If a petition gets enough support, the Obama Administration will issue an official response.

My thanks to Professor Leatherman and all the commenters here for a wonderful and free legal education. The debate on this site is by far the most knowledgeable and intelligent on the Zimmerman case. I wonder if anyone cares to entertain a theory of mine.

There are 2 sets of photos of Zimmerman’s bloody head: one before the EMTs got to him, taken by W13 just after TM’s murder, and another after the EMTs cleaned him up, taken at the police station. What I’ve noticed (and please forgive me if someone else has noted previously) is that the blood flow pattern is exactly the same in all the photos. Looking at the back of his head, there’s a small shallow horizontal cut on the left, and the blood from this cut flows down and sharply to the left behind his ear and toward his chin. There’s also a small shallow vertical cut on the right, and blood from this cut flows straight down his head, curving slightly to the right at the neck. While there is less blood in the police station photos (due to the age of the injury and the effects of the peroxide EMTs applied), this pattern of blood flow is the same both before and after the EMT head wash.

There are 2 implications of this observation: 1) Since the blood flow is unsmeared in both sets of photos, Zimmerman could not have received those cuts from having his head slammed into concrete by Trayvon because he claimed he wriggled onto the grass afterwards; and 2) During the entire time his head was bleeding, both before and after the EMT head wash, his head was in roughly the same upright position, allowing gravity to move his blood downward and toward his chin.

My conclusion: This before-and-after analysis of the blood flow pattern proves those 2 cuts were made AFTER the murder, probably with the assistance of a flashlight or keys, and probably as he paced back and forth between Trayvon’s body and the T with his hands holding the back of his head (as Mary Cutcher described). I’d be grateful for any thoughts on this.

I’ve thought about this before, that the cuts might have been made after the shooting, but that is not possible because of the dried blood, so they had to be made sometime before, probably even before GZ got out of his truck. From the time he leaves home until the time he kills, there simply isn’t enough time for blood to dry. It has to take more than 20 minutes to get dried blood from these wounds. Thus, the only real opportunity for him to contrive these wounds and massive blood flows is, before he leaves home.

Quite sometime ago I theorized that the sight of this blood on GZ, as TM walked past, is what got TM so scared he could not stop himself from running. Otherwise, why would he leave the mail shed while the rain was actually increasing? He left the shelter of the mail shed when the rain was heavier than it was when he got in there. According to the rain data, he should have stayed in the mail shed some 5 minutes more. He could easily afford to, since the game wasn’t going to start for at least half an hour. So, what did he see that made him leave? Probably something about the real crazy dude.
Hmmm… does he say dude or guy? Real crazy guy? Homie? Hmmm…

He walks by and GZ is intent on scaring him. Guess he doesn’t want to the confrontation to take place in this area, right? It’s simply not an ideal place to kill, witnesses might happen by and there are nothing but windows facing a lit area. Better he scare TM to flee into the dark areas behind the buildings.

But no, the blood doesn’t match anything that happened at the crime scene, and it appears to be to old to have started flowing there.

Also, if GZ had gone to the ER, a doctor might have been able to see that the wounds had already started healing, that would not be a good thing, since it would also place their creation at sometime before GZ left home. That would tie in nicely with the idea of notification. But it also says that GZ didn’t not leave home immediately after being notified, he had to stay there and create these wounds.

That in turn would mean the killing was actually premeditated, and it would mean that there were people or persons unknown, out there keeping an eye on TM. That is what made me think that this was some sort of initiation. The very idea that “time was running out”, had to come from somewhere and it’s unlikely to have come from an idea that the police would shoot GZ when they arrived. Because the police know who he is! At least the one scheduled to arrive does, since he is the same one who responded several times before to GZ’s calls.

I get the impression that there’s some sort of Kalvern or Klack operating in Sanford, that has members all through the gov’t there.
It’s very likely their operations that made the goons a “necessity”.
In an “action = reaction” sort of way. Obviously there was something keeping these people and police in fear, such that they stopped observing the laws and held to secrecy. Just as obviously the police enabled GZ and that made GZ fearsome to his neighbors. Who was playing Stromboli’s role we’ve yet to figure.

It is quite possible that George’s minor injuries predated the killing and in fact may have related to an incident during the day that made George so angry that he felt a compulsion to go out that night and either commit an act of “heroism” or an act of murder to save his dying ego. He also could have headed out much earlier than we know and gotten those “capillary type lacerations” [Serino’s words] somehow. I don’t think he deliberately passed by Trayvon to scare him because (a) he would have restrained him with his gun, not scared him with his Frankstein head; and (b) how could he count on Trayvon even seeing his little scrapes in the darkness?

This is why the car should have been immediately impounded and completely searched by a forensic team. Blood in the car? Binoculars in the car? Etc.?

My guess on why he didn’t really want a medical work-up was that (a) He did not want a blood alcohol or other blood tests done and (b) he did not want his injuries properly photographed and annotated carefully; and (c) he was informed by the time Tim Smith arrived on the scene that they were not going to hold him accountable.

My other guesswork has to do with the gang called the “Goons.” Here it is: Nothing.

If the “Goons” were a big issue in Sanford, Singleton, who works narcotics, would have known about them, and she would have asked George if he thought Trayvon was one of them. But of course, gang members don’t wander around one by one; they wander around at LEAST two by two and everybody knows that. In addition, if the “Goons” were a big issue in Sanford, Serino would have mentioned them when he was questioning George. Third, if the “Goons” were a big issue in Sanford, the initial March 17 and March 18 press reports would have mentioned that the Police indicated the neighborhood was much troubled by a Black Gang called the “Goons.” Fourth, if the “Goons” were any kind of an issue in Sanford, George’s written statement to the police from that night would have said words to the effect, “The suspect appeared to be a gang member of the ‘Goons’ who have frightened my wife.”

I don’t think that GZ tried to scare TM with his head wounds either. Odds are that TM never saw them at all, otherwise he’d probably have mentioned them to DD. As he was on the phone when he passed GZ’s truck.

GZ tells us a false story about TM passing his truck, he says that he rolled down the window and TM asked him “why are you following me?”, to which he says he responded: “I’m not following you!”. Then he says he rolled up his window and TM moved on. Only thing is, DD would have heard this exchange if it had taken place. TM certainly would have elaborated upon it, when he put some distance between himself and GZ. That didn’t happen either.

There’s supposedly one minute of head bashing before the shot is fired, so the head is supposedly bleeding for two minutes before the Police arrive, and less than two minutes before the picture of the blood flows are taken. Now, go look at the blood flows, do they really look like blood flows of blood that has been flowing for less than 2 minutes? Remember, that’s all the time the blood supposedly had to flow into that pattern, before the picture was taken.

Be careful when interpreting climate data because you always have to adjust for time, wind speed, and micro climate variations. The recorded temperatures and precipitation are specific to the location where the measurements were obtained and recorded. For example, a rain squall might pass through an urban area in 20 minutes. You would see it as a spike in the data and note the time. To accurately determine when the rain squall passed through the area of interest, you have to adjust for wind speed and direction as well as the distance between the location where the data was recorded and your area of interest.

Yes, well… I certainly wasn’t trying to be precise, there are just too many variable for any sane person to think they can accurately judge the matter. But having a baseline to compare things with, gives some idea of how close or far conditions may have been, that would influence drying time. Since that baseline (iirc) was 70 minutes at room temperature (72) and low humidity, on a hard surface.

We can compare that to the generally soft surface, 60 degree temperature, high humidity and wet, oily surface GZ’s head presented. So, given those givens you’d think that blood would dry slower, not faster than the baseline conditions given.

So that’s a general starting point… Yet, even if, against this data, we half the drying time (to be conservative, since it should be going in the other direction) we come away with 30 minutes for blood to dry.

Meaning that even if we surrender half of the drying time, determined to needed for drier and warmer conditions, we still come away with a view that the wounds had been created before GZ left home. Obviously, if we apply the proper indicated longer time, we get a really weird result, that GZ was perhaps wearing those blood stain and wound, for quite sometime before he left home.

Of course, we can give his car some credit for hastening the drying processes along, but we still wind up with a ball park view that he was cut before he left home. Nothing else makes any sense. Blood doesn’t just dry faster because you want it to be dry for the medics to see, obviously he’d rather have had them see it wet and not dry anywhere.

But raindrops should have been diluting the blood forming the trails and grass should have been smearing it. Leaving a spread of splotches all over his head, not the neat trails we see.

Thanks for all the responses. How do we know the blood on Zimmerman’s head was dry (versus simply congealing and no longer flowing) on any of the photos? It seems to me those cuts were so small and shallow that it would take only a minute or two for healing to begin and for blood to stop flowing.

“Thanks for all the responses. How do we know the blood on Zimmerman’s head was dry (versus simply congealing and no longer flowing) on any of the photos? It seems to me those cuts were so small and shallow that it would take only a minute or two for healing to begin and for blood to stop flowing.”

We know that from the medics who treated GZ at the scene. They say he was covered with blood, hands and face, before they cleaned him up. They also say there was dried blood on his head and face.

The pictures of GZ’s head were taken within 2.5 minutes of his supposed wounding. With a good portion of that time spent on his back in the grass, then standing and moving about. Thus, the blood flow trails you are witnessing in that picture, must be the result of less than 2.5 minutes of fresh blood flowing, while on his back in wet grass and again while standing and moving around.

Do you think the blood would congeal into those discrete trails during less than 2.5 minutes of activity in the wet grass and standing in the rain?
I don’t.

Lonnie, thanks again. Yes, Zimmerman’s bloody head picture was taken very shortly after Trayvon’s murder, but the medics didn’t touch Zimmerman until some time later. They all worked on Trayvon first while Zimmerman sat in the patrol car. Trayvon was pronounced at 7:30pm, after which medics began to treat Zimmerman. So his blood could’ve had close to 15 minutes to dry before medics touched him.

15 minutes is not long enough for the blood to dry. It takes 70 minutes at 72 degrees (it was 60 out there) on a dry hard surface (Zimmerman’s skin is oily, soft and was wet) at low humidity (it was high humidity and raining as well).

Even though the ball park indicates that the time for drying blood should take longer than 70 minutes, to be conservative I’ve cut it in half instead and look for the wounds to start bleeding 35.5 minutes before the medics get to them. That put’s GZ back at home when the wounds started bleeding. Because he would otherwise be cutting himself in the car.

If you want to cut that in half again, to 17.25 minutes, that still puts GZ at home when his wounds begin to bleed. Because if he didn’t do it in the car, he certainly didn’t have time to do it once he left the car.

As you can see, there simply isn’t a way out! GZ wore his wounds from home to the scene. Then tried to blame them on Trayvon Martin, via a concocted lie of a fight that never happened at all.

In fact, the evidence says that after he shot and killed the child, he put his hands on his head and reopened the wounds to cause additional bleeding. This would have been easily diagnosed by a doctor, who would know the difference between fresh wounds and ones that had been picked at and caused to restart bleeding. GZ feared that discovery being made.

The only question is why the police accommodated his request to cover up the evidence. The 46 days explains that adequately.

I just don’t know, folks. This whole scene is just nuts. RZ Jr, with his media tour and Twitter rants, David Piercy an absolute mental patient candidate with an off-the wall petition people are actually signing, and MOM performing his shenanigans, the case is rapidly pulling away from our good friend – George Zimmerman. They are quite successfully muddying the waters before this Murder case even comes to trial. The three are bucking for attention with greedy evil agendas of their own.

The main stream media is running with Robert and his posse because it is selling news. The media outlets don’t care about your opinion. They care about the numbers – readers or viewers. I am witnessing the rapid loss of integrity in the main stream media.

We are not hearing from Trayvon’s family and that is only because they are decent people very simply wanting justice for their dead son.

This case is bringing alot of really ugly people out of the woodwork and it is disgusting to read and watch.

The underhanded actions of LE uncovered thus far is disgusting to read and watch.

I sit here shaking my head. It is all too much. All out of control. Get GZ where he belongs — the sooner the better for everyone.

I agree. Zimmerman deserves no more nor less than anyone in his position and we have him on audio tape committing cold blooded murder, he wasn’t detained for long enough to create protests in seeking justice, he’s a judge shopper, he lied under oath about not having known about Trayvon’s age, he lied about a large sum of money and a hidden passport, he was then given bond a second time, and as of today, he’s has isn’t in jail and has bodyguards.

This isn’t a complicated crime he commuted. He’s a common murder and he’s being treated like a prince.

I believe he had a premeditated intent to murder Trayvon when he pulled the trigger. IMO, he’s guilty of murder 1. He’s would be lucky if I were the king of the universe because I don’t believe in the death penalty. I hope he goes to prison for the rest of his life.

Serinos’s accidental manslaughter capias is an insult to justice, common sense, and human decency.

Professor, I remember in one of Judge Lester’s orders, he says that the only one whose age is a factor in this case is TM’s. Are there laws governing self defense, SYG, or homicide that pertain to victims who were minors?

Hello all! I am the author of the White House petition to launch a Federal Investigation into the violation of George Zimmerman’s civil rights. I am pleased to say that we are just 20 signatures away from our next status goal of being “searchable” on the we the people website. This means that when people from around the world view the White House website this petiton will be listed. Once we reach the goal of searchable status we will begin efforts to make the petition a national news story. Please help spread the word to get us our last 20 signatures. The Trayvon supporters are actively trying to stop the petition and they spread the word among themselves to flag the petition as “inapproriate” in an effort to prevent us from reaching our goal. let’s all do our part!

Folks, we ought to get behind this petition so it flies into some federal office. We owe our federal workers a good laugh from time to time; they work hard, they tolerate lots of traffic during the rush hours; they pay high DC taxes in addition to the taxes from the states they live in. C’mon guys, push this thing through! After all, an investigation of the violation of Cheorge’s civil rights? That’s not a waste of taxpayers’ money at all, is it? I think there’s some civil right that says that if you set out to kill some suspicious guy, it’s unfair for him to try to fight back. For you to have to suffer a bump on the nose and two separate sets of trails of blood from the back of your head (one not matching the other!) is a deprivation of your civil rights! BOO HOO!

I have more scratches on me right now from my cat whose nails I am remiss for not cutting than Zimmerman and the black and white picture of Zimmerman with a swollen nose which appeared mysteriously a months a month after the murder is photoshopped because it was supposedly taken on the scene but within 4O minutes later Zimmerman’s nose looked nothing like this at the police station.

Yet SPD supposedly believe Zimmerman’s account about having his face pummeled in the face and having his head bashed repeatedly into concrete.

David says: “The Trayvon supporters are actively trying to stop the petition and they spread the word among themselves to flag the petition as “inapproriate” in an effort to prevent us from reaching our goal.”

I entertained flagging it but based on some of the hilarious Zimmerman insulting names on the petition, I want it to stay so the Zimmerman family, in particular RZ Jr, can see just what people think of them and their efforts to cover-up for a lying murderer named Chorge.

1) The feds are already investigating Zimmerman and it is obvious they agree with the indictment of Cheorge, otherwise they would have stopped it already

2) The Zimmerthugs obvious dont know what crime or evidence or even probable cause or suspicion is, otherwise they wouldnt file such a dumb petition

3) I could care less if their petition succeeds because if it does, all that will be found is that the evidence against Zimmerman is sound, and David and the rest of the Zimmerman cult will be actively investigated by the FBI and have charges filed for obstruction of justice

Not to worry, you can still help by spreading the link to appropriate places and people. Every little bit helps, we’re up to 12 so far, doing much better than the Zbot petition and we don’t have the media.

You know, I have a feeling that there is a code number assigned to “cases that must be made to go away” in police departments like this. I will bet you that it’s not uncommon, not difficult, not usually problematic for them to routinely UNDO cases that involve perps they want to protect who have committed crimes against victims they don’t want to protect. I bet they say, early on, something like, “this is a four-ninety-one” or something like that and from that point forward, it’s just a drill. Anyone who doesn’t know the drill gets taken off the case. It happens in all sorts of agencies, not just police departments. “Guys, this is a nine ninety-five” and the echo goes down the hall and fades out and suddenly the whole thing follows a familiar pattern…

Oh a see what you mean .I dont know if it was video taped I would have hoped so .But as they were kinnda keeping this alleged investigation on th QT Down low perhaps they thought an taped audio wouls suffice…I I R C The way Serrino spoke to gz It sounded as if he wasnt even in an interegation room.He says at one point to gz …Tell me if theres anything to say .This is why I have you out here an not hte other…Impying to me he was in the soft suite reserved for victims as opposed suspects.An this being the case may not have been wired for sound an film like an innterogation office.An thats why we just have audio…….

The reason I have for not reading much further evidence, is because I’ve already more than enough evidence to believe that Zimmerman killed Trayvon, for a variety of as-yet-unknown-reasons, with malice afore thought. It already grates on my nerves that it took 46 days to charge him, as I learn more I skirt the danger of becoming apopletic over it all. As it is, I think I can safely absorb smaller additional pieces of evidence, but I have to stay away from the tsunami that I feel is still lurking in the evidence dumps.

If you find yourself obsessing over it all, it’s definitely time to pull back, because it’s still a long haul to the June trial date, about which you can do nothing. Pull back until you can re-engage without obsession or compulsion.

Athorities know what’s on Tray’s phone, it’s the SPD that didn’t bother CHECKING the phone that night (or ever) to determine the identiy of Tray! But Crump gave the phone to the FBI and it’s been throughly examined. But we can’t see the results because it’s private info..

@FactsFirst
The newspaper is making it seem that Trayvon’s phone is equipped with the same protective defense systems that are used to keep our nukes code safe. It’s all spin. Don’t worry. Like Shannon says, the FBI got first dibs and was throughly examined.

I am getting the impression that a lot of the evidence that has been collected is so so so so sooooooo incriminating to Cheorge that it has been kept under wraps for the simple reason that it would be an automatic indictment of the SPD and of Wolfinger and would make it obvious to the public that it was not just their silly “not ready for prime time police force” act that prevented them from charging a murderer. In fact, if all the evidence that has been available were to be released, it might look very much like Corey undercharged Cheorge in an attempt to keep this from utterly destroying the Seminole County law enforcement structure. Remember that both the prosecution and the defense tried to keep Judge Lester from allowing the evidence dumps to take place; they were BOTH scared to let the public see what had happened down there.

Fortunately someone realized that the evidence would eventually out anyway. So, I’ve taken the liberty of creating a counter petition on WH dot Org: http://wh.gov/IXcy

It won’t be available to searches until it gets at least 130 signatures. So, until then we’ll have to rely on our troops to spread the link.
Thanks for all you do. Let’s show them what a real petition subject can do.

@ Brownie, exactly! we argue with Rene over at Orlando sentinel all the time, people give her TRUE facts on twitter and she still writes the stupid shit she does anyway. They can’t stand to have truth on their website! It’s senseless to try and figure out what their agenda is over there. In the best case scenario i’d guess it’s for the sensationalism, and to get the ‘hits’ on the comment sections.. IDK..

They are just being reporters by making something bigger than it is to sell readers, called, sensationalism. Nothing more, nothing less. What is really important is that it was the phone used and has the phone records pertaining to the night of the murder and that is that. There’s nothing important on the phone and all there is is pics, videos, text messages, and whatever apps Trayvon used on his cell phone.

Cheorge didn’t button his lip because he knew he was among friends. Then he felt “betrayed” because he got charged with a crime, and that sense of “mistrust” [O’Mara’s words] caused him to lie to the judge about…MONEY!

He lied about money because he was mistrustful because he was charged with a crime after killing somebody? Hmmmm…

What Judge Lester said.

By the way, after Lester was recused, the defense had the right to re-file all their prior motions again to get them re-determined. DID NOT DO THAT.

And notice that O’Mara did not file a notice to change any of his rulings. Law of the case now!

I mean, what could O’Mara do, claim what Lester said was unjustified? All he could say was that Lester was likely to be prejudiced against his client but after all, anybody who had witnessed Cheorge’s undeniable dishonest behavior would HAVE to be “prejudiced” in terms of not believing a word he says. To do otherwise would be to deny reality.

What they really want is a judge who will deny reality as much as Cheorge, Shellie, Lee, Wolfinger, Serino, Smith, Junior and their friends have…

If he would have been real about it by saying he was trying to hide his passport and his money, his bail wouldnt have been so high and Lester wouldnt have kept him in jail and then gave him fairly strict bond conditions

Instead… he claimed he was betrayed by the law enforcement for arresting him, that he was young and confused LMAO

To me buttons either Jenson Button a name like movie Benjamin Button ..or an impliment to fasten clothes..Or an object to push………Whatever Serrinos an Singletons failings the certainly did a great job of putting gz at ease enough to talk an talk no matter how implausable his version of events .They kept a straight face I imagine noded aproveingly an let George dig an dig himself deeper into the mire.Singleton slipped up once or twice chalenging him on the verasity an obvious B S he was spouting,,Forinstance George on the fly anserwing his made up trip to his ownt street for an address?He was never askes for avoiding any mention of him persueing Trayvon an trying to acount for the time dissscreppencys ,It was I R C about the amount of time he lingered on his own street obviously George has time to acount for time whilst he wasnt persuing Trayvon.Working out times an timeline involves adding up math an he doesnt do well acidemically.Anyhooo basicly he was saying after his mission over the walk past the T wich he looked down but never phisically ventured he walked to his own street for an unwanted unasked for unused adress all the while he was on the phone with the non emergancy dispatcher..But after the call he said he lingered .Serrino jumped in an asked him why.It was raining dark an you want to get back to your truck.Mommenterly George is stumpped for an answer an then .Blurts out LIGHT I had light there….presumeably from street lighting….So gz is seeing the light on his own street for as far as I can glean an udissclossed amount of time …With his adhd a suppose it can be seconds or a couple of minutes…This is were Singleton had had enough of his bullcrap an said,words to the effect….Wait a minute you have just walked through that dark area after a suspect an without hesitation followed the path he ttok into the dark without your flashight not working..An now you expect us to belive you when your pretending to be scared to walk back the same way without light an youve already determined that at this point he is gone…Then she stops herself an backtracks realises she is fronting him an calling him out.She softebs her tone an languge an says oh not pretend…But I tell you she realy rattled George …The next time we hear his vioce Is after Serrino jumps in an again I paraphrace……You didnt chase this kid run after him in the dark.You where angry they a;ways get away Fn punks always gettin away .You didnt chase him confront try an detain him.Thats not what your about……When George answers his voice is low an a couple of octaves higher than useall an i m o on the verge of tears……Noh now voice also cracking unless its a bad tape quality wich it is an my imagination.But at that point they end the interveiw…i couldnt beleive it when they stoped they had hin flusttered an on the ropes .If they had hit him with another of his blattant lies at that point he would have cracked….Forinstance Singleton arranges to receive a call dureing the interveiw .Calm gz down again palsy walsy softly softly an get him to retell the saga of the attack …With or without the homie you got a problem dialouge but the punching head slamming bit with gz tottally defenseless as Trayvon reins down unstopable savage attack to the scull head scalp on CONCRETE ..Face nose broken multiple assaulte to face .An attempt to halt him breatheing by covering his hands over georges mouth..As George has finnished recounting his saga of the savage attack on his person .Singleton gets a call from the coroners /forensic findings ,,,She anounces the call an asks caller to pause as she talks to George an Det Serrino…Great timeing Ive got the lab results in conserning blood dna salavia ect.Turn to george an say well this should wrap things up an confirm everthing you have just said…I shall put this on speaker phone so we can all listen to the results….An then the results are read out into the interegation room…Blood negative saliva .NEGATIVE ….TRAYVONS hands pristine no blood grazes tiny little nick in finger…Read the cause of death a level shot angle through an through .Basicly have it planed that every single peice of real evidence as opposed to zimmerdence an thats not a new word I invented its a typo cause he is a Zimmer an he is dense..Hence his evidence is zimmerdence ….Thats one interveiw vt Id liked to have seen,,,Forgett about semantics an georges use or missuse of the word button,Im sure glad he didnt know to button his lip………

It’s a damn good thing FL has that sunshine law and that the Martin family wasn’t taking any guff, otherwise GZ would have walked, what with all the dancing around at SPD. Serino and Singleton actually did a good job exposing him, ironically.

It won’t affect the case much at all, there are other police and records for the jury to view. So, either way the story will come out. He can take the 5th if he believes he will be incriminating himself, the SP could grant him immunity and then he’d be required to testify.

stunning! the BS written and said by serino is so convoluted it will effectuate even more upset within the SPD. And Omar will try to use it as a distraction in court, but it CANNOT erase all the hard evidence in the murder case, so it won’t work out any better for GZ. But i can’t wait to see who else thinks some asshole killing a kid is excusable and defendable enough to put thier reputation and ASS on the line for GZ! And then i wanna ask: is he worth it? Was GZ worth the consequences YOU are suffering now?

LLMPapa, very good questions, and you back it up with Serino’s written words. You also spurred me to another thought regarding Serino’s report that it was not drug related. Would that also apply to Trayvon, thereby refuting GZ’s NEN description that he looked “like he’s on drugs or something”?

I never liked Serino´s style of questioning whether of witnesses or GZ; indeed I was horrified when he said the bit about if GZ had killed a “thug”, “good”, and I was not convinced when others argued it was merely his “good cop” technique. I just hope the prosecution is au fait with your videos as they are so graphically explicit that it would have to be either a complete idiot or a complete bigot not to see through all the smoke and mirrors to understand the truth. You are a supreme communicator of ideas!

Serino’s profiling comments worried me too, since I usually wear black, on black, on black. But have you noticed the FBI interrogation of the SPD expert on gangs Josh Memminger on Sanford gangs or the “goons” (2nd discovery p. 115). He only talks about one gang’s wear which is black on blue, the 14th Street Goons. He does not mention the supposed specific colors of the other gangs. I find this type of profiling problematic. But my suspicion is they left the blue on black information in, since it fits the two suspects that were observed at the house of GZ’s neighbor at the time, Olivia Bertalan, if I remember correctly. They were saved by the pro-Zimmerman camp before SPD took them down again.

On the other hand as others prominently Malisha has pointed out over and over again GZ keeps talking about “the suspect” in his interrogations, so in a way Serino’s in this context could well try provoke GZ, or make him more hesitant about his abilities at “profiling” . … something GZ obviously does.

Bottomline: I just listened to Singleton’s first interviews again. it feels to me that even Singleton struggles with this “good willing boy” in front of her. At one point she even shows some compassion for his wounds. Strictly I give these people the benefit of doubt. What think though, GZ should have been kept immediately as long as possible. And he should have been questioned non stop for several hours.

I remember at one later point Serino shows GZ a picture of Trayvon’s hand, this is all they found on his hands. I am no expert on this, this does not seem to fit Serino’s experience at least that is how I interpret it. I am bruised easily often without even noticing, but I am martyring my head if I ever had my hands bruised? My memory is vague in this context. But I’d appreciate the knowledge of experts in this context.

Whether true or not, I dont know all the details, but Serino is likely to state he was manipulated by George and that is what Jose Baez will tell him to say. Funny how karma is – George does not like to take responsibility and blame others, now it will happen to him in court LOL

I believe near the end, I can hear Zimmerman howling at Trayvon while he screamed for mercy and help, before killing him by shooting him and asphyxiating the kid by pinning him facedown by sitting on his back, and I also heard Zimmerman was molesting Trayvon’s body with his hands.

Btw, GZ had NO authority whatsoever to “frisk” Trayvon. He actually tampered with evidence when he did that. Of course, he would need to get the iced tea in Trayvon’s pocket — probably was thinking of using the “weight” to say he thought Trayvon had a gun. He definitely touched the wound in Trayvon’s chest because Trayvon’s blood was found on the bag of Skittles in his pocket which GZ went into when frisking.

With Selma and her partner on their patio asking GZ three times what was going on before he got up, he could not finish what he wanted to — probably thought about putting his gun in Trayvon’s hand.

It is also my opinion that GZ smeared Trayvon’s blood on his own face to give the appearance of fresh wounds — the EMTs wrote that the blood on GZ’s head had dried.

Besides, many people initially didn’t pay attention to the exact connection time on top.

Also, while not really important. Since Serino claims to have gotten these numbers from Singleton, is he also slurring her? Or did he get her consent to time conspiracy?

Concerning, how could Serino have known since he arrived at 20:10 ( more precisely at 20:08 according to the crime scene contamination log, 2nd discovery, p. 48).

Well according to, Stacy McCoy–who acts in the function of on duty supervisor on that night, helps with CPR and later tries to calm down the teacher (see the SAO investigation, 2nd discovery, p. 10)–he may have been somehow influenced by the officers already on the scene that briefed him upon arrival:

1st discovery, Report Stacy Mc Coy, p. 17

I assured the crime scene was secured by crime scene tape and that the crime scene contamination log had been started. The scene was held pending the arrival of Major Crimes.

Upon arrival of Investigations staff, Officer R. Ayala provided a briefing and the scene was turned over to them. I had no further involvement in investigations.

Ricardo Ayala is the second officer on the scene that night. That Ayala’s information was limited, since he obviously responded just as Tim Smith to GZ’s NEN call. And no, neither should have trusted what GZ said. But

Ayala writes his report pretty fast, Tim Smith has to be reminded by Stacy McCoy, who modifies or corrects both of them after Smith has written his report and invites via car to car transmission McCoy to have a look.

There is no trace that Tim Smith confirms he met GZ before, although it feels he has on 02/02/2012. It seems the only ones that admit they know GZ are Jonathan Mead and Carlos Davrila.

we just discussed GZ and T.Smith’s ‘intimate relationship’ the other day! The last 3-4 calls GZ made to the police were answered by T.Smith personally! T.Smith needs to get a grip, his ass is in deep and documented!

The difference between 7:12:00 pm (as Serino stated in his Capias) and 7:09:34 pm (the call’s actual logged connection time) is 2 minutes and 24 seconds.

Even a cursory glance at the entries into the call’s Event Report establish 7:09:34 as being the time the call began. For example, the second entry up from the bottom says:

SUBJ NOW RUNNING TOWARDS BACK ENTRANCE OF COMPLEX

This entry is time stamped at 19:11:59, or 7:11:59 pm.

The NEN call’s recording shows this exchange between Zimmerman and the dispatcher:

[2m14s][7:11:48]SPD-NE: OK. Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards.

[2m17s][7:11:51]Zimmerman: The back entrance.

Zimmerman provided this “back entrance” information to the dispatcher 2 minutes and 17 seconds AFTER the call began, at 7:11:51 pm.

As for the 8 second difference between 7:11:51 pm and 7:11:59 pm? I’m supposing entering the call info into the system takes a few seconds.

Whether intentional or the result of a gross error in reading comprehension on the investigator’s part, this 2 1/2 minutes (or, as you say “more precisely” 2 minutes and 24 seconds) being removed from the overall time difference, from the call’s beginning to the time of the gunshot being heard, effectively eliminates the majority of the unaccounted time disparity of Zimmerman’s version of events.

Personally, I can’t see it being an unintentional error on the part of veteran police detectives.

Even if it could have been passed off as unintentional error, that view is gone with the appearance of witness tampering that goes in the same direction. Coupled with other things the police did, that attempt to support Zimmerman’s account and cover over police misconduct, the only conclusion available is that it is intentional.

The difference between 7:12:00 pm (as Serino stated in his Capias) and 7:09:34 pm (the call’s actual logged connection time) is 2 minutes and 24 seconds.

OK, LLMPapa, admittedly I didn’t pay much attention on that.

He indeed writes:

on 2/26/2012 approximately 1912 hrs

I surrender, one would indeed expect him to adjust downward from 19:11.12 and not upwards, if one adds the creation time instead of connection time that adds up.

Even a cursory glance at the entries into the call’s Event Report establish 7:09:34 as being the time the call began.

Well, I remember in the early times of my case studies, that many actually choose the creation and not the connection time, maybe since it is identical to the first entry. No doubt it seems to be more precise to use the connection time if we also use the parallel time of the recorded call.

But fact is, Singleton pulls the “creation time” from the “Computer Aided Dispatch” not the connection time. Why do you think she does. Or do you think he misuses her?

Investigator D. Singleton, using information obtained from the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office Computer Aided Dispatch (CAD), established the following timeline:

I have never called NEN or 911 in the US thus I have absolutely no experience.
You are slightly correct, the fact that he additionally rounds up instead of down with his approximate time, is slightly suspicious.

But why do you think Singleton pulls the infos according to creation time and not connection time? I don’t know.

But I absolute agree, if there is not some technical detail that escapes us, like some kind of short wait in line for a certain degree of callers, she should have used the connection time. So far there seems to have been a consensus that the moment “Sean” enters an entry, the time is automatically recorded, just as when GZ starts to talk it means he is “connected” and that whatever he says from that point on is automatically recorded.

So far I thought it was simply an oversight, considering the won’t have a case often after which a caller kills his “suspect”, they may simply not have paid as much attention. OK, you slightly changed my mind.

Since I am absolutely on your side that they should have done the exercise you did with Marinade Dave’s Video. I loved especially the third of the series, and interestingly it left the pro-Zimmerman camp speechless, at least there was no follow up on “that sneaky LLMPapa”. 😉

At the moment they have discovered that Malisha is in fact African American. Wouldn’t we know? Besides, does it matter what skin color each of us has?

Thanks, I now understand, I didn’t immediately, admittedly. But allow me please to abstain from a final judgment about the “case Serino”.

Also try to remember that, GZ’s wounds would have to be created, sometime between the start of the NEN call and the time the police first arrive on the scene. The NEN call eats up the first 4 + minutes, then there’s this 2.5 minute delay so from 7:09 to 7:15 no wounds can happen.

So when the police arrive the wounds can be no more than some 2 minutes old. But the medic see dried blood??? By the time dried blood appears on a wound, the wound has already begun to undergo some healing. A physician can evaluate the age of these wounds, and in my opinion, that evaluation would hardly be good for GZ.

The dried blood says the wounds are more than even 30 minutes old.
That has terrible imports for the case. As we can see, it isn’t just me, this question of dried blood and the age of the wounds just keeps coming back again and again. I started raising the question before the evidence dumps over on the bcclist.com the evidence I had for such a theory was admittedly weak, so I said my piece and let matters lay. Later the question came up again, and still we had no better information, except that by then we had dried blood observations by the medics. So, I again said my piece and let matters lay. Now someone else is getting the same impressions that I did, that the wounds are not what they seem to be.

Their only mistake is in thinking that the wounds could have been created, with their blood flow trails, during the only 2 and a half minutes available, 2.5 minutes after the 4 minute NEN call ended.
Or, a creation time of nearly 7:15, I sincerely doubt it.

It wasn’t a badge it was a button. It doesn’t serve a utilitarian purpose like a real button does. Like a photo button you can have made at a local pharmacy/photo print shop. A lot of people get them made when someone dies, like T-shirts with a loved one’s pic on it.
It’s just more proof of Trayvon’s child-like, innocence imo, to have a button with a loved one who’s passed. Just like he had a heart sticker on his phone. B/c he was a sweetie pie type of kid. He wasn’t a tough, macho type guy, who would feel wearing a button like that made him look too ‘soft’ or the kinda guy who would never be caught dead with a heart sticker on his phone. He was a softy. A moma’s boy, just like everyone who knew him says.

They are often called “buttons” here. When my kid was little we actually got a “button-making machine” that would make them. You’d take a little spring-loaded pin, put it into a round metal button, and fasten some kind of decor to it using that machine. The kids were able to make the decor to go on the button by drawing small pictures on paper the shape of a circle somewhat larger than the button itself. We did not think of using photographs, that would have been cute. But it wasn’t popular then, yet. Perhaps in Miami it began to be common for funeral parlors to give the mourners buttons with the picture of the deceased and that may be why Trayvon had buttons with his deceased cousin and his deceased grandmother. I don’t know about that custom, maybe not. But anyway, the kids would make little pictures and we’d seal them onto the metal with the machine and they’d have buttons. My kid made a black-on-tan button that said OREGON and had trees behind it.

I take it as read that button on his shirt is an Americanism for a badge?…I mean everyone has buttons on there shirts to fasten them button them up……………Unless its a zipper fasten type…….Im from the UK an have lived abroad in various contries even visited the States a few times.Never heard anyone refer to a button as a badge….Even Humphrey Bogart talking to Mexican Bandits was it High Searrah Film ?Bogey asks to see there sherif deputy type badges….An the Mexicam replys Batches weee don neeg know stinnnking Batches!

Which, of course, raises yet another point, when do we ever see thugs/criminals wearing photo buttons of any type? Low lives who have little concern for themselves, are unlikely in the extreme, to show and concern for anyone else, less political statements or family ties. Most rogues are estranged from their own families to differing degrees, because of their intolerable behavior and their potential to bring danger home.

Please stop telling your kids “don’t hang with that guy or those people”. Kids just don’t understand that you are not referring to a mere dislike of them. They think that you’re simply prejudiced by the different lifestyle. Instead make them aware of the “chain” of circumstances you are afraid they will become ensnared in. Let them know that they don’t even have to know that these “friends” are in the process of committing a crime, to be guilty at law, for being a known associate of them. All that comes even before, your kid is asked to do some innocent seeming thing, that is really in furtherance of a crime, they actually know nothing about. If they hang with these parties, who is going to believe that they were not actually a part of the criminal enterprise?

My guess is once they understand the nature of the various traps they’re likely to be ensnared in, that have the potential to ruin their entire lives, even without them knowing what they’ve gotten into, they’ll probably decide that “yeah, the risks are too great”.

Basically, the kind of button or pin that Trayvon had would have been round with a picture and/or writing (in this case, a photo), and some kind of pin in the back to fasten it to clothing. To me, the word badge has a more specific status, usually either 1) an item (usually with a pin) that can be shown to identify someone as law enforcement, military rank, or the like, or 2) an emblem awarded in recognition of an achievement or honor. I’m not sure if that’s a difference between American and British usage.

yeah, the button was a cousin.
the tattoos were 1, his granny. 2. his mom, 3, Jesus.

I believe the same as lonnie, that Trayvon was the kinda kid who wouldn’t have confronted an adult in any way shape or form. He wouldn’t have cussed at GZ, he wouldn’t have raised his hand at him, even if GZ grabbed at him. I think he would’ve been too shocked to move for a minute when those words came out of his mouth. But the only thing he did was struggle to get AWAY from GZ! And when he lost the connection on the phone w.DD, it was because GZ yanked the phone away or grabbed his arm.

He watched GZ get closer and closer to his hiding spot to the point he had to finally say something to him.
That is the terrifying aspect of this case. That Tray had no idea why this guy was gawking at him in the car was one thing, but by the time he ran and hid behind one of those white gate things he was giving DD a blow by blow of what was going on. But Tayvon had NO IDEA he’d had just run from his own murderer, and he had no idea he was watching his own murderer advancing toward him to actually kill him.

He may have thought he was in some kind of trouble… like maybe he had entered into the property through the walkthru, that might of been against the rules of the association…. or maybe he accidentally littered when he dropped his little black&mild on the ground… Kids aways think they are about to get in trouble when adults look at them sideways. So he could have been trying to think of what he did.

BTW> since this is the first year my son goes to school and i have to DRIVE HIM every single F’ing DAY wasting gallons of gas sitting idle in line, dropping and picking him up, a mere 2 miles from my house!

I can tell you i’ve seen the same boy walking to school ( the middle and high school are on the same street ) and he’s dressed identically, with white tennis shoes, sweatshirt, and khakis. Same skinny little bony narrow behind, trying to maintain some of his coolness (in case a cute girl passes by) he often has a little cigar he smokes, especially in the morning. And every time i see him i think of Tray, and it breaks my heart. B/c i can see him doing the same exact thing that night. INNOCENT! Just a kid being a kid.
I feel like a weirdo sometimes cas i watch him thru my side mirror while i wait at the light. I wanna run out there and grab him and personally deliver him to and from school. It kills me to watch him all alone, even though he’s doing what he’s supposed to be, he seems too vulnerable out in the open.

GZ has changed this world in ways he isn’t even aware of. For me, i know it’ll be a problem when my kid gets older and wants to walk to school. I don’t know what i’ll do then.

OMG, i wrote my comment BEFORE i saw the video above! I’ve never seen this video until just now. But everything i said a few minutes ago was true.

About Sybrina, she takes my breath away! i empathise with her so much it’s like i can feel exactly what she’s gonna feel! I have suffered excruciating losses, unbearable losses that i’ve doubted i could live thru, barely lived thru really., except mine wasn’t for the loss of a child. My first was the loss of my mother. Losing a child isn’t something most people can live with. And that’s why i think she’s got an important purpose here that we haven’t even thought of…

I’m gonna write to her and remind her that we all are here and NEVER giving up on her and Tray .I know it helps to know that people understand her, and are ON HER SIDE AND BELIEVE HER!

I agree with every sentiment and notion you just expressed. We have here an opportunity to define in a very practical way and to people who sorely need it, what justice, civility and America itself are. For shame that it is necessary but I am inspired seeing that we will not quiet down until it is made.

Serino is a bit of an enigma to me. I do think however that he listened, and worked quite well to draw GZ out further and further, and all the while looked GZ in the eyes and saw his injuries and heard his tone of voice and measured his body language and all that, and came to the clear conclusion that the shooter’s story was not credible. Whatever else he did, he established within a few days obvious proof that GZ put forth a false narrative. The way he played “good cop/ good cop” with Singleton for as long as he did kept George talking and that to me is 85% of the case for conviction on M2 right there.

He’s a working professional and maybe not top notch at his job, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that George was putting forth a false narrative. Keep in mind Serino did what he did without the benefit of knowing about Dee Dee’s phone call. I’m of the mind that his thinking evolved fairly quickly in the matter, and that’s what counted. Imagine if he had gone down hard on GZ from the get-go and GZ had the sense god gave a goose and kept his mouth shut and demanded a lawyer. How much harder would a conviction be then?

He gave a joint interview with then chief Bill Lee where he more or less backed the chief publicly, but he also seems to have intimated to at least one resident that there was more to this case than George was telling the investigators, and the should “read between the lines” and see the role race was playing in the case.

All of that and more makes me sad that the required remedy, a fill scale outside federal investigation and clean up of the SPD never took place. We’ll always have our GZ types, trigger happy knuckleheads but the public interest is not served when those in leadership position such as Bill Lee and Norm Wolfinger preside over a corrupt system that allows such a poor handling of cases in their care.

Serino is a guy who did his job, and yeah he could have done it better. But the remedy is not to make him the scapegoat. The remedy should be to lift up the department and clean out the culture that was clearly present in Sanford Florida, and I’m pretty sure plenty of other places in the USA as well.

The idea of most television “procedural” shows about professional types like doctors, cops and lawyers, etc is to reinforce the notion that while they may have backaches and gambling problems and child care issues etc., they always behave with the utmost professional care in their workplace. It’s folly to think this is truly the case. They are human and usually only as good as their training, budget and schedule allow them to be and let’s face it, in most cases that is hardly worth celebrating.

I think Serino got it right where it mattered, and that’s more than some people can hope for in plenty of other sad cases.

But I concede every point the good prof makes in being critical of his faults. I just wonder how we as a society are going to get to the level we’d all like to be living at. Let’s hope our discussions here and elsewhere lead to something positive.

JD, if I am not mistaken, the FBI investigation of the SPD is still ongoing. I believe that is where the pressure needs to be felt. The information I have now from the SPD is going to the media soon and also going to the DOJ and I am contemplating starting a petition asking the DOJ to put out preliminary reports on findings about whether or not Wolfinger and Lee are under investigation for civil rights violations. I think if the DOJ puts out a preliminary report that they ARE under investigation, a lot more people will come forward with stories to tell about the SPD. They may be afraid to do so at present or thinking that, for some reason, they shouldn’t, while the Zimmerman case is still pending. (Nothing could be farther from the truth; everyone should strike while the iron is hot.)

Zimmerman clearly is guilty of racial profiling and murder resulting from such profiling. He should be charged with a hate crime, but we’ll see what the FBI comes up with. They might even be able to charge him with something related to Martin’s civil rights.

Jun, good question. Every defendant is entitled to plead NOT GUILTY (Fifth Amendment, US Constitution) and every defendant is entitled to a good defense (Sixth Amendment). What would be the best defense for Cheorge? Hard question, because he did not exercise his right to remain silent. I suppose for a minute I would flirt with the “NCR” [not criminally responsible by reason of insanity] defense to say that he was unnaturally freaked out about crime because he has a mental illness, and he was racist (yes, I would consider it a valid part of my defense to say that he was racist so that his bizarre deranged attitude that night would become part of his NCR defense) so he fantasized that Trayvon was actually threatening to him when Trayvon was in fact just freaked out by the crazy creepy guy following him. That is, I’d have George admit to the racism so he could explain that his misconceptions about Trayvon led to his sane behavior in chasing him down and eventually (within two minutes!) killing him. I’d say George had to be crazy because by all reports, everything Trayvon did to try to get AWAY from him were being interpreted by him as aggressive. If you attribute escape behaviors to aggression you’re nuts.

Of course, this defense would be useless. Florida can have a totally screwed up system but it can’t afford to set a legal precedent saying that some bozo can go nuts and kill somebody and get away with it just because he gets himself into a high anxiety state. I mean, if that were true, I’d go off my meds and head on down there with a 38 for real! 🙄

Well, since nobody but Zimmerman knows the true facts, he has to testify in court. Without his testimony, there is no evidence for self-defense. If he does testify, his credibility will be ripped to shreds under cross-examination. If I were Zimmerman I would just kill myself and spare the State of Florida a costly murder trial that will most likely end in a conviction anyways.

@Dennis, Best idea ever!!! But GZ would have to have some sense in order to have an idea.
So we’re stuck with the huge waste of money of houseing the idiot for the next 25 plus years… oh well!
Or maybe his new husband in prison will pimp him out and at least he’ll earn his keep somewhat.

They already set a precedent with the Anthony case. That child was clearly murdered, put in a trashbag with duct tape over it’s face, and thrown into a swamp like trash. Anyone who believes that child died in the pool seriously needs a CATscan. Every piece of evidence pointed to murder, and not one shred pointed to an accident. If Anthony can get an acquittal, then Zimmerman surely has a good shot at freedom too.

Every piece of evidence pointed to murder, and not one shred pointed to an accident. If Anthony can get an acquittal, then Zimmerman surely has a good shot at freedom too.

Dennis, there’s a HUGH difference between the Anthony and Zimmerman case. Casey plead not guilty to murder. The State failed to prove that Casey committed the murder. The State did not have forensics neither witnesses.

GZ admitted that he killed Trayvon. The issue is whether he killed in self-defense. The State has his statements, forensics, and physical evidence to overcome GZ’s self-defense claims. GZ has also admitted that when he unholstered his gun, that he was under no danger, had physical control of Trayvon and a clear mind to make sure his left arm was not in the path of his aim.

Look at how the jury decided the Dooley case. They all but forsook the altercation and focused instead on how it all started, finding that Dooley was the aggressor.

Just on the “who was the aggressor” issue, GZ loses big time, because, when he realizes that TM knows he’s following him, he had the opportunity to abate the hostile atmosphere, he then knew he had created. His failure to identify himself at this opportunity, means he not only preserved the hostile atmosphere that was frightening a child (he know Martin was “late teens”) but that his actions escalated that hostility. A view that becomes painfully obvious, when GZ attempts to explain it away with his unbelievable claim that Martin went “skipping” away from him, as opposed to “running” as he originally stated in the NEN call, where he is supposedly describing events as they are unfolding.

A view that becomes painfully obvious, when GZ attempts to explain it away with his unbelievable claim that Martin went “skipping” away from him, as opposed to “running” as he originally stated in the NEN call, where he is supposedly describing events as they are unfolding.

Indeed. The fact that the dispatcher discerned sounds causing him to ask GZ if he was following, reasonably concludes that GZ, independently and deliberately made that decision.

The wind is still heard in the phone after GZ says “okay” to Sean and continued until GZ said “he ran.” However, subsequent to that, GZ makes it known that he is not on the same route that he took when following because when asked for his address he replied, “I don’t know where this kid is.”

Thus, “He ran” and I don’t want to give my address because “I don’t know where this kid is,” reasonably concludes that GZ was still following, albeit not running.

His stories of looking for an address and defending himself by saying he wasn’t following is BECAUSE GZ knows his action of following Trayvon was unlawful, and makes him the predator.

I dont feel that it was an accident either with Caylee but I think, for whatever reason, they couldnt put Casey as the killer. I still feel its pretty dumb because her called smelled like a dead body, so obviously it was whoever was driving that car that dumped the body. That case was a gong show. She could have at least been charged with desecrating human remains if they couldnt get murder.

Any other ideas of how the defense will approach defending George? I believe we have covered everything but better safe than sorry. I cant think of anything. All I can see is having a proper jury and it should be a go.

http://www.nextag.com/All–zzstreet+sign+bracketz3zBiz5—html i was looking for an object to match the welt on the back of GZ’s melon head so i ventured in the dirction of the dog post since he made the statement of a sign during one of his interviews or the re-enactment. on page for of this link someone tell me what you think of the universal screw and the bracket for 2lb u channel pipe post

1. Does anybody know what kinds of screws and brackets there were on the back of that sign (or any others in the immediate area)?

2. Since it is possible, and maybe likely, that GZ was not at the T during or immediately before the altercation, were there any other signs either along the dog walk path, or the two streets running along either side of it?

Since it is possible, and maybe likely, that GZ was not at the T during or immediately before the altercation, were there any other signs either along the dog walk path, or the two streets running along either side of it?

If GZ walked or fell into a sign, it was probably the Friday before 2/26/12 when he was drunk and out walking his dog, because those scratches on his face had already scalped when the pics were taken after he killed Trayvon.

Either an EMT or paramedic wrote in their report that the boo-boo’s on his head came from a “thrown object.” The nature and location of the boo-boo’s do not indicate they derived from having his head bashed on concrete.

That could be another reason why he didn’t want to go to the hospital. Professional medical staff with professional lighting would have recognized much more than the EMT’s and paramedic did in the dark using flashlights — IMO.

George Zimmerman is a “LOW DOWN MURDERING MONSTER!” he killed an innocent kid in cold blood and is now trying to lie his way out of a prison sentence. not only is he lying about the events of that night, he had the SPD as well as Wolfinger and his lying father who had no business being allowed to be present at his interrogation and, the same thing goes for Osterman. how very shameful it is, that these people actually wanted to see him get away with killing an innocent child. as for those who support this loose cannon, they are no better than he is in the morals dept. how can anyone support a person who takes the life of a child and, Trayvon’s height, weight and the 17 years that he lived, does not matter because by law he was still a minor. be it aged 2 and 1/2 or 17 yrs, Trayvon Benjamin Martin was a “CHILD.” it’s really hard to imagine that there are some women out there with kids of their own, smearing this kid as well as his family, right along with the other “IMBECILES” who are also smearing his name as well as spewing their racist hate toward a kid and his family who they never knew. a kid who was doing nothing wrong, is the most hated child murder victim by some in this country. Zimmerman had every intention of killing this kid and, his charges should be bumped up to murder one. smh

David Piercy, who started the petition, says on his twitter that the Trayvonites are embarrassing themselves by signing the petition with silly things. As if he really takes that poorly conceived and written mess seriously with it’s 100 signatures, along with his his racist- azz Twitter messages. Hmmm.

If the joke and GZ family signatures were removed, there would be around 80 signatures on the petition. That should really make Junior proud because it means that his media blitz increased supporters, nationwide, by 55 in 4 months.

George’s problem is it is fairly obvious he lied about the altercation, how it started, where it started, when it happened, what had happened, and why it happened. The forensics of the body location and Trayvon’s items with George’s items, makes George’s story, false, and actually supports Deedee’s claims and testimony (what do you know George did get on Trayvon and Trayvon dropped the phone by the confrontation and altercation just like she said). Then you have witness 18 who saw it from the confrontation on and I forgot the witness number but she stated that it moved from the south, heading north on the back pathway, then screams and the ended with the gunshot. I actually found it humorous when George is at his re-enactment and he is desperately staring down the back pathway because he knows his story dont fit no more, and his desperation leads him to come up with fly swatting and breasts strokes a few feet south LOL No wonder he went into hiding because I think he realized the cops were onto him LMAO

Nice! Like that translation much better than your previous “takes one to know one”, and my attempt, “takes a thief to catch a thief”. That is exactly what the Spanish expression, “Cree el ladrón…” is trying to say, i.e. If you are a dishonest, shady, dishonest etc. person you will consider everyone else is the same as you because know what you are like.

I suppose an anxious and fearful man thought in terms of NW and his hero complex would see punks and danger everywhere on a dark, rainy night rather than seeing an ordinary young person on foot, simply trying to walk home.

TSTAS, you are right. There has to be something wrong with someone who sees everyone and everything as a crime ready to happen and “susspecting” ordinary people doing everyday things. He’s sick. it must be a really paranoid effed life to walk around thinking everyone is a suspect. That has to be a hellish life.

My goodness, he was in his Sctruck able to observe from a distance and drive away whenever he wanted to.- both good choices for the paranoid Georgie. He wasn’t paranoid, IMO. He was hunting. He doesn’t see anyone and everything as suspect. Young black males are his thing.

“There has to be something wrong with someone who sees everyone and everything as a crime ready to happen and “susspecting” ordinary people doing everyday things. He’s sick. it must be a really paranoid effed life to walk around thinking everyone is a suspect. That has to be a hellish life.”

Aside from GZ’s possible paranoia, there is a strong possibility that he judges everyone by his own underhanded/shady actions.

Excellent discussion, I will search google, the thing with that is, it is a preconceived explanation which is to influence. To read each here is the most eye opening as individuals have differences as how they are affected. To lock my car doors either for black or white would be based on “visual”, what I “see” to be potential harm. If I am on the highway, and a large truck is approaching I become much more aware of harm than if I see a small car. This is entirely “visual”, because the small car may just be the one which goes out of control and hits me, where the truck may not. Not making comparison between human and object but the mind sometimes swings into action when we are not pre thinking about
it. For any unfortunate blindness one would not have the visual to
determine racism or prejudice, all would have to come from others
Like a baby, child, would have neither, unless instructed. What is the thought on this.

Digger, I completely agree that racism, prejudice and bigotry are all learned behavior. Naturally, children and even babies realize that people come in all sizes, shapes and colors, that speech is different based on many factors, etc. What they learn is how to or not to make judgements based upon those factors. We can make a difference in how children view their own race and that of others based upon the behavior we model and what we say to and in front of them…IMO

You know Digger and Vicky, I sometimes wonder how a jury would change verdicts if they did NOT see the defendant. Seems the odds are stacked sometimes – between black defendants and white defendants, a pretty woman defendant vs a not-so-pretty woman defendant.

I know there is a right to face your accuser. However, one of the components in a defence strategy is appearance because it does have an influence – the defendants attire, the body language, etc.

I would like to perform an experiment, if it has not already been done. How about the jury being in a room whereby, they could listen to the testimony, monitors would show the evidence, the lawyers, and the judge. The results may be more fair and the witnesses would be better protected.

The jury should not see who is in the gallery, the defendant or witnesses.

JM, do people actually still say, “What the fuck’s your problem homie?” any more? Do they say, “You got me” when they’re killed? Do they say, “Well you got a problem now”? Do they say, “No, I don’t have a problem”? Do they say, “the suspect emerged from the darkness”? Do they say, “He looks like he’s up to no good”? I mean… Cheorge is sunk in the old movies, never got out! His verbiage is old cowboys-and-indians-gussied-up-to-1970s-ghetto. DAMN!

Malisha says” “JM, do people actually still say, “What the fuck’s your problem homie?” any more? Do they say, “You got me” when they’re killed? Do they say, “Well you got a problem now”? Do they say, “No, I don’t have a problem”? Do they say, “the suspect emerged from the darkness”? Do they say, “He looks like he’s up to no good”? I mean… Cheorge is sunk in the old movies, never got out! His verbiage is old cowboys-and-indians-gussied-up-to-1970s-ghetto. DAMN!”

In that case I guess he could have said “coons” instead of “punks” but I have not heard that phrase used for a long time.

One thing I thought about GZ’s hokey old-style way of describing the killing of Trayvon is that Mark Osterman’s father is an “author” and wrote some cheesy novel back in 1993. Wonder if GZ read it and was influenced by it. Might explain his description of events 02/26.

The single review of this book (which describes the plot) is rather interesting in terms of a possible tie-in to this case. Could it be that GZ’s was harboring some fantasy of ridding the world of criminals, like the “hero” of the story, and that the story fed into this fantasy? Did it feed into some belief that extreme tactics were justified in the pursuit of this goal?

LLMPapa, OK, this video was responsible for a disability claim. I laughed so hard I split my sides. Out poured all my rage, which immediately hit the four walls, bounced back at me (because it’s very bouncy rage!) and came boomeranging back at me and smacked into me. I felt like my head was gonna explode. It is undisputed by now that I have a broken nose. If you were here in the room with me I’d have had to shoot you in self-defense. See what you done done?

This was so funny! Saying homie living in Miami, yeah RIGHT…… The young guys haven’t said that word since the 90s the word now is “fool” used now as a term of endearment or the opposite but never as in “stupid”.

WOW something just occurred to me. I am writing an article for the safe child advocates’ magazine and I am using many examples, Trayvon’s case being one of them. So background: I rent a room in a house where the family (homeowners) have four kids and three cats. As I left this morning, I suddenly focused on something that I had seen a thousand times but had never really “SAW”: the sign on their front door that said, in big letters: BLOCK PARENTS with a big smiley face. These were put up years and years ago by families who HAD children and who offered to help ANY CHILD on that block who was lost, hurt, scared, freaked, etc. In other words, on every block in the neighborhood where I live, one family has this identical big orange sign up that kids are told means: HELP IS AVAILABLE HERE. Kid is diabetic and is feeling low-sugary? Knock on this door for a quick glass of orange juice. Kid has lost his cell phone and can’t call home for his ride? Knock here, we’ll let you use the phone. Etc.

The Neighborhood Watch is associated with this kind of help available. If there were a family in RTL with such a sign, Trayvon could have gotten help that night that would have saved his life. Knock knock, “Excuse me, a guy’s following me…”

That’s the sweetest thing i’ve ever heard! But i’ve never heard of such a “BLOCK PARENT” house. And you’re exactly right, if there had been one, especially one close by where they could of heard Trayvon screaming, they could have helped. And that should be a MAJOR part of NW, NOT some deranged fucking idiot with a gun, chasing kids down for thier bikes, calling the cops cas they’re playing in the pool and stalking them at night calling them “fucking coons” and shooting them while they scream!!
I swear i hate that guy so bad, if i ever saw him in public i’m sure i’d be on the 6 o-clock news in hand cuffs!

Beleive me, you would not be aline. I would be right there with you. You are so right about making some deranged loser cop wannabe who chaseses people around and accuses people of stealing, how they EVER let him be on a neighborhood watch with his background is beyond me. Yeah, i’d be on the news in handcuffs right with you

IIRC, didn’t one of the neighbors @ the Retreat say he told some kids in the neighbor if you have a problem or need anything my door is right there, you can come there. If I find the article, wil post.

@Malisha,
The Happy Face symbol in a door to help kids is a great idea. Most kids would associate that with good, happy maybe even help. NW should also include neighborhood help. Such as if a older neighbor can’t cut her lawn, neighbors should take a minute and offer help, before calling code enforcement. I remember when we were living in Virgina, and my husband would cut the lawn every week, but we noticed our neighbor, who was an older female was not getting cut on a regular. So he said maybe I should just cut it, I said yes, but let me check if it’s ok. I spoke to her and she offered money, I said no way we are taking your money. I said what are neighbors for? She was astounded and very happy that a total stranger would do that. Some time later in the week, her daughter came by with a cake and a thank you card. That happened years ago, and I still have that card. To me its the little things that we can do to help our neighbors and get along with each other.

@Rachael, he did accuse an AA teen who lived in the neighborhood of stealing his bicycle and, I would be willing to bet, that he didn’t even have one for anybody to steal. you know, I’m really surprised that he got away with doing this kind of bull shit, and not having his nose punched for real. as I have said before, all of this calling the cops about suspicious AA males, was just a ploy cooked up by Zimmerman and Taaffe, to run the few AA families living in their neighborhood out. there were apartments as well as condos in that same area that were a lot nicer than RTL as well as some businesses and, G&T came up with their bs of having a lot of break ins in that swamp. what better way to rid your neighborhood of people who are not wanted there in the first place, you start accusing them or others in their race of crimes that they haven’t committed. EVEN STEVIE WONDER COULD SEE THROUGH THEIR PLOY.

Exactly -The block parent component, IMO, is the most-important part of NW. Property crime pales in comparison to the NEIGHBOURHOOD WATCHING out for its kids and their safety. Property can be replaced.

@Zena – I agree, there is a difference between prejudice and racism. But, when we allow prejudice based upon race to remain unchecked, we reinforce attitudes that can ultimately lead to racism.
I probably should have been a bit more specific in my response to Digger. So here goes: Racism is an attitude born of the belief that one race is inherently superior over another.

In the United States, it is by in large the attitude that whites are superior over all other races. Although I realize that one might argue that whites are not the only ones who can be racist, I believe that a particular race needs to have attained a position of power over another before that aspect of the debate gains any level of credibility while discussing racism and it’s impact on American society.

The economy of our country was built on racism and the original Constitution put in writing the belief that blacks were inferior to whites. I might add that white men were superior to white women as well, not to mention the treatment of Native Americans, and the early colonization of the Western Hemisphere. Amendments to the Constitution tried to un-ring that reinforcing bell, but granting civil rights does not change attitudes and prejudices. It is subtle, but each time a child (and some adults) reads that document, the idea that one race and/or sex might be dominant over another is reinforced if there is not an adequate discussion about those aspects of the document.

IMO, many politicians in this past election process made an attempt to mobilize those who hold onto the idea that whites are superior. As a matter of fact, for the most part they threw all their eggs into that one basket. It’s sad to think that their demographic analysis led them to believe that there was a sufficient number of racists in our society that playing on their fears would get them elected.

That would be bigotry. The same applied to Native Americans and Africans because of the idea they were “pagans” or to say it another way, it began as religious bigotry.

The United States is suppose to be a nation of freedoms, but there are folks who want to mold others into their image of religion and culture and even then, they are not “good enough” because of bigotry. The only way to rid bigotry is for it to die out because that is in the heart of those individuals. Bigots interpret everything in terms of superior and inferior whether gender, religion, nationality, color.

I actually believe that misogyny is the root of all the bigotry we have. From misogyny we derive the culture-destroying poison of patriarchal ownership of women, and from that, the inevitable corollary, being the paternal ownership of children. From that, we get the control of resources for women and children vested in men and they can withhold it. This makes the loving of children and the support of their needs conditioned upon the pleasing of the all-powerful ownership-male, who is by definition NOT the natural repository of all concern for the child’s welfare.

The more the child becomes the DRAW of resources rather than the exploited provider of pride and hubris, the more the patriarchal triad has to degrade the mother in order to maintain the proper “balance” of power. Because the natural system would enable the mother to demand resources from the father in order to properly raise the child, and because the patriarchal system has to make the father the “demander” and the mother the “obedient provider,” you get real, palpable hatred for the mother from both the father who feels he is demeaned and degraded, and from the child who is angry that he cannot have everything he wants. In a family like the Zimmermans’ family, this produces a really REALLY angry man. His mother beat him up and did not bend to his will and did not give him what he wanted. He went out into the world thus injured and wanting to make exploitable inferiors bend to his will and give him whatever he wanted to make up for his terrible initial injury.

This doesn’t mean that Cheorge’s particular father instituted this particular system within his particular family. Rather, it is a social situation that fans the flames of the angry baby who never grows up and who never got his needs met.

Cheorge impresses me as a big baby. HE EVEN LOOKS like a big baby. He has a babyish, tummy-forward, clumpy gait; he has a resentful but passive-aggressive babyish face. He has a childish demeanor and a fussy baby temperament. He looks and acts like a low-testosterone, impaired, overgrown baby. And whereas I love babies, you should NEVER give them loaded guns and once they’re over 18, they should be told to GROW THE SHRUCK UP!

Anyway, there’s a whole nother rant in me about how racism, anti-semitism, and all that other crap is the result of misogyny born of getting it all wrong about who’s the mommy here. I’m not getting into it tonight, too tired out thinking about how much I would like to give Cheorge a BIG TIME-OUT!

I actually believe that misogyny is the root of all the bigotry we have.

Misogyny is a bigotry, but if the root, IMHO, it’s because of religion. I’ve met many men who did not take on the idea that women are unequal or inferior until they read something in a religious book that they interpreted that way. It transcends hypocrisy because most religious books also teach that everything reproduces according to its own kind.

When I was in college, there was a discussion in journalism class that quickly turned to discussing why evening classes consisted of mostly women and Black men who were already working and raising families. A White male student spoke up about women belonging in the kitchen and the bedroom — were too stupid and couldn’t learn, etc. I waited until everyone else voiced their responses and then raised my hand.

I only had one thing to say to my classmate so turned and looked at him and said, “I’m so sorry you feel that way about your mother.”

You could hear a pin drop. The professor sent us on break. That classmate did not return.

Xena and Malisha — I agree with absolutely everything you have said. It has always been about the haves and the have-nots. And every gain made by people of colour and women, has been fought for long and hard. It is only when the misogynists in our patriarchal societies are FORCED to change that any change happens and only because there has been a benefit in some way to them. You are so right.

Oh, and my personal favorite from Serino to George, “Would you have felt the same way [about Trayvon being suspicious] if he was white?”

C’mon, man, look at the question. It’s like asking, “OK, are you going to admit to being a racist?”

Naturally, George felt completely comfortable just saying yes sir, not having to defend at all because of the way the question was phrased. Better questions to ask him?

“So you had seen several young Black males in the neighborhood before?”

About how many?
Were some of them already known to you?
Those who were known to you, any of them do anything wrong?
Who?
What’d he do?
See any who were NOT known to you?
Call in to the police about those ones, the ones who were unknown?
Anything happen?
What was the end result?
Did they kinda keep getting away?
When you saw this guy, is that why you were worried he’d get away?

Of course Serino had to ask GZ if he would have felt the same way if Trayvon was white. What would happen to Serino and GZ if he did not establish GZ was not a racist? It was by far the stupidest question phrased in the stupidest way. Hopefully the NEN call will speak for itself when GZ says “these azzholes always get away” and “effing punks” when he generalized his thoughts about black kids.

BTW regarding effing punks and the controversy over what GZ said, do people actually use the term “coons” to describe black people any more, especially people GZ’s age?

You said:
BTW regarding effing punks and the controversy over what GZ said, do people actually use the term “coons” to describe black people any more, especially people GZ’s age?

My response to this question is this: YES! I believe that just because that term may have been used OPENLY 40 years ago, doesn’t mean it is not being used today. Depending on GZ upbringing and surrounding influences, he may of heard that term on a regular. Who knows? He will never tell.

Look at the term ni**er, used first in the 1600’s still used today.
Racial slurs have no age limit.

There’s a point in one of the taped interviews at which he asks Zimmerman what word Zimmerman used and he replies, “punks.” Serino kind of snorts and laughs, and says, “That wasn’t punks.”

Yet he didn’t suggest, other than this, the word he had in mind to replace the laughable, “punks.” He just moved on.

Serino knew perfectly well the word Zimmerman said, “…coons.” He knew what the word wasn’t and it’s as clear as day he knew what Zimmerman said.

I don’t claim to know everything Serino did and did not do nor why but he knew what slur Zimmerman used and instead of it being a “clue” he laughed it off. I have no respect for him. IMO, he knew Zimmerman was a racist and his supposed belief that this was manslaughter is an absurd joke.

Oh, Dan Q, I heard that part of the tape and I interpreted it differently. I thought he asked George what he had said, and George admitted to “Fucking punks,” and Serino’s disdainful chuckle and snort quickly preceded the observation: “He wasn’t a punk.”

I think this was along the lines of Serino telling George NOT that he understood the epithet differently, but that George had wrongly profiled Trayvon. George called him a fucking punk. Serino was saying, “that was no punk.” As in, “uh oh you killed an actual person.”

Malisha, thank you not only for this reply but for many excellent posts I’ve now had the chance to read that were posted before mine could go through.

I appreciate and thoroughly agree with subtle, complex, and direct way you deal with the topic of racism.

I am open minded. I will listen again and also try to find a transcript. I’ll reconsider my opinion.

Serino, though, for many reasons, still falls into the “bad guy” list. The original post is enough, but the fact Serino gave that little speech to the Orlando Sentinel about how Zimmerman was their best witness and everything he has was supporting Zimmerman’s claims disgusted me. I knew about Bill Lee’s outrageous public comments but I didn’t know Serino performed the same routine before today.

There was a time I believed Serino was a “good guy” but now I realize this is what I wanted to believe, and sadly, what Serino, a manipulator, wanted the public to believe.

No, i believe GZ said coons. And i think Serino knew it too, and that’s why he snorted at it like he did. GZ had already called Trayvon an asshole. If it really was just ‘punks’ why would Serino need to ask him? Why would he need to get that clear? It was serious for Serino, It was another fuck-up, on tape, he’d have to clean up for GZ! He and GZ had better come up with some word to put there and stick with the story. Just like the screaming caught on tape.They would stick to the “punk” story from that moment on, and GZ better remember that if Serino was gonna be able to do all the ‘explaining’ he was doing.

You know, I believed absolutely it was “coons” when I heard it first. I listened maybe 10, 20 times and I heard “coons” more and more clearly. Then when Corey charged Zimmerman, I saw that she said he had exclaimed, “Fucking Punks” and I thought, “oh she’s clever; she said it was punks so she could avoid the controversy because he has already admitted to Punks!” But I still thought the word was “coons.” It didn’t matter. Either way, it was clearly a sign of hostility and animus, which equals “malice” for purposes of the criminal charge. Then somebody put up a video on YouTube just around the time I was learning to look at the YouTube videos and I listened to it. It broke down the way Cheorge said “p” in other words from his NEN tape. It broke down the way he said “oo” and “uh” sounds. And then I listened to the tape 20, 30 more times and guess what: I began to hear, very clearly, “punks”! Now each time I hear it, I hear “punks.”

But at the time that Serino interviewed George, and George admitted that he had said “Fucking Punks,” [which tape had not yet been released to the public and obviously had not yet been given to Corey], the question of whether the word was “coons” or “punks” would be just as interesting as the assertion, made by Serino, that Trayvon Martin was not a punk.

Either exclamation leads to a murder charge. Of course, Serino was only going for an “accidental manslaughter” charge.

The ironic thing is that had the SPD gone with “accidental manslaughter,” they would have ultimately succeeded in getting George OFF, because one element of that crime is proof that the victim was committing a felony at the time he got killed. I saw a Florida case reversed on appeal because the victim was not a criminal! So “Trayvon Martin was not a thug” would have been Cheorge’s defense if the SPD had gone along with Serino’s capias and charged the guy with accidental homicide.

I feel he said “goons” which is the name of local AA gang. I feel that is more damning than “coons” because it shows GZ profiled Martin as a black gang member from the very beginning with NO evidence at all!

I don’t think “goons” to indicate gang member is a possible here. First of all, if George had any idea that Trayvon was a gang member he would have said that to the cops and he would have NOT gotten out of his car, you can bet your bottom dollar on THAT. He was sure Trayvon was harmless. Second of all, he would have spoken about gang activity at some point in some of his ravings to the cops over the period of the previous year. We didn’t hear him reporting any suspected goons in RTL. Bicycle thieves, runners-in-the-street, smokers-of-cigarettes-near-Taaffe’s-house, all sorts of dangerous thugs, but no goons.

Just one more comment, and I will shut up and continue reading comments.

I think one of the major differences between Americans and Canadians is the identification of a citizen. Americans believe in Cultural assimilation.

Cultural assimilation is one type of assimilation, resulting in the loss of a subaltern group’s native language and culture under pressure to assimilate to those of a dominant cultural group. The term is used both to refer to colonized peoples when dominant colonial states expand into new territories or alternately, when diasporas of immigrants settle into a dominant state society. Colonized peoples or minority immigrant groups acquire new customs, language, and ideologies through contact and education in the dominant society. Assimilation may involve either a quick or gradual change depending on circumstances. Full assimilation occurs when new members of a society become indistinguishable from older members.

Canadians, on the other hand believe in Cultural diversity and multi-culturalism. Cultural diversity refers to having different cultures respect each other’s differences. As a normative term, it refers to ideologies or policies that promote this diversity or its institutionalisation; in this sense, multiculturalism is a society “at ease with the rich tapestry of human life and the desire amongst people to express their own identity in the manner they see fit.”

@grahase – If I’m not mistaken, hasn’t PM Cameron, Chancellor Merkel, and other European leaders mournfully, regretfully, and publicly admit that multi-culturalism has been a complete failure in their respective nations? there are reasons why someone indures the long, arduous, and expensive process of immigrating to another nation from their own. Think about that for a moment. And there are many, many, Canadians living quite happily in the U.S.,(not much adjustment neccessary as our nations are very similar) aside from the snow birds. Canada and the U.S. are both far from Utopia.

PLEASE forgive me if I appear to be too sensitive, but I left one great nation to live in another great nation, found the constant comparing of Canada and the U.S. (U.S. always on the loosing end) too be intolerable. I never suspected that Canada as a nation suffers from an inferiority complex. So, so sorry, but if you’d take a moment to google the subject, you’d find several months worth of reading on this sad subject. Again….. NO disrespect.

Sorry, LoooLooo – I am not here to debate my country is better than yours type crap. I was born and raised in Canada. Believe me, I know of what I speak. There is no inferiority complex. I was simply making a comparison. There are pros and cons to every patriarchal government. Don’t give me the Cdns in the US are happy or not. If they were not – they wouldn’t be there would they. There are many Americans living in Canada and probably every other country as well who are quite happy where they are. Same with ex-patriots from every country in the world. You are, indeed, appearing sensitive and that is only because you have not understood what I have written.

Everyone wants to believe their country to be the greatest on earth. Why should you assume that Canadians feel inferior and why would you suggest I read about the subject.

All I can say with complete certainty is – Racism is a learned behaviour. Watch children playing. I have two god-children of Irish descent. They have 6 cousins who are Phillipino and Ukranian (mixed race). Until someone brought it up, these kids (all of them) never realized there was any racial differences amongst them. As far as they knew, they were cousins. Case closed. I always found that rather strange because the 6 children were obviously of Asian descent. Yet, none of these kids saw the difference. We can learn much from our kids.

Zena, although I agree with you regarding systemic racism, I think it is important for all of us to realize that one does not have to be a bigot to engage in racist thinking.
One of the most eye-opening events in my adult life occurred when I was working as a CINC worker at a juvenile detention center and a 15 year old African American male, who also happened to be a gang member was shocked that upon observing him dressing his own gunshot wound, I entered the secure area to take over the task. He had never had a white woman touch him. Following that day, he and I had many conversations about racism, both overt and covert. Some had to do with systemic issues, but much of what we talked about was much more subtle.

Zena, although I agree with you regarding systemic racism, I think it is important for all of us to realize that one does not have to be a bigot to engage in racist thinking.

Vicky, I so appreciate your willingness to discuss this and share from your experience. IMO, what you describe is prejudice. Prejudice is overcome with knowledge where the individual no longer pre-judges based on physical appearance and that physical appearance can include culture and race.

Racial bigotry is another animal and derives from a belief in racial superiority. It says no matter how much education, money, or successful accomplishments, the person or people will never be good enough because of the color of their skin. When “those people” gain enough power, organization, money, education, etc. to make bigotry known or live better than or equal to Whites, they must be brought down, oppressed, humiliated, deprived. And that is when racial bigotry becomes racism.

Xena – Thank you – I will check it out. People will never change theirs behaviours until they can recognize it for what it is. Cigarette smoking, once accepted, is slowly becoming a thing of the past because society has deemed it unacceptable for many reasons. Small example of what society accepts as status quo and how it CAN change for the betterment of everyone.

Xena – just looked at a couple of Jane Elliot videos and all I can say is WOW. I have taken many classes through work because of my managerial position in a diverse environment. These courses dealt with cultural customs and practices – like, what may be a compliment to you may be an insult to someone else, for example. Jane Elliot using her eye colour experiment – what an excellent tool. However, as shown, some would never want to participate and learn that they, indeed, are racist. If anyone else is reading this post – I KNOW I am a racist and have worked hard every day to change my thoughts. I have done better than my parents in that regard. And my parents did better than their own parents. If you were to meet me, you would never guess that I deal with this inner struggle always. It is comforting to know that this next generation will do better yet.

Xena – just looked at a couple of Jane Elliot videos and all I can say is WOW.

Her first exercise with children was excellent. Those students, as adults, had a reunion that was wonderful.

If you were to meet me, you would never guess that I deal with this inner struggle always.

Being in a diverse family, I have had no personal problems with being racist, but I have with prejudice — still have a problem with folks with tattoos on their face, 10 earrings, one in the eyebrow and another in the lip — stuff like that. I promised myself not to pre-judge them but still wonder what type of work they do that allows them to look like human pin cushions. But I’m working on it.

Bill Cosby on Prejudice. I remember being shown this in a course in college. He ends with the line, “there aint but two of us left, and i don’t care for him”. lol Bigotry and prejudice can be overcome with education. Things our parents believed are not the things we now believe. Life lessons are hard.

Both of my parents were bi-racial and the only times I remember them discussing race was (1) when my mom shared how when she was 5 yrs old, her dad, who was White Scottish, was lynched by the KKK for having a Black Scottish wife; and, (2) when MLK was murdered.

I grew up in a very diverse neighborhood on the West side of Chicago in the late 50’s among Jews and Puerto Ricans, some whose families still reside in the old “hood” today. That in fact, I heard more about race from the Jews because a few had number tattoos and they shared their story of survival. I remember one Jewish family sharing how the only place that accepted them during the war was Shanghai, China.

Bigotry in the Chicagoland area was more centered on original nationality than race. Ethnic neighborhoods were not considered segregated or “ghettos.” Rather, people just preferred to live where they were welcomed. That began to change as jobs moved from the inner city to the suburbs and people wanted to live closer to work than commute. Insecurity in economics brings on many other fears and racial bigotry is rooted in fear that grows into hate. Just listen to what the Zimmermans whine about — money, money, money.

Very, very rarely do I hear the word racist in Canada. I never hear the word bigot. I do not know why. What I do hear is the word – discrimination. Discrimination is against the law falling under the Human Rights Act. The Canadian Human Rights Commission deals strictly with cases related to discrimination. Hate crimes, hate speech, etc. are not tolerated. This is why I find the State v Zimmerman case a real eye-opener. Shocking really. I dont know the culture in the USA. Maybe Canadians just choose to nip it in the bud. Hate is like a communicable disease. We should all try to contain it. By-the-by – bullying is finally being addressed. It has always seemed to be an expected part of life – and it never should have been allowed to fester.

Grahse, I recently took custody of my 14 year old niece who grew up in Ontario. She is completely amazed with the same thing. Not just with the GZ case, but with rhe differences in many social issues in general.

It is hard to understand cultures different from our own because of our mindset. Each of us has our own definition about what should be and what should not be. I think most of us are moderate. It is those at the ends of the spectrum – right and left that will not admit the obvious.

Even though Canada has its own discrimination problems, its not nearly as bad as the states. I remember one time there were Neo Nazi skinheads in Vancouver BC who got chased out of town by pot smoking hippies, when the nazis tried to march. LOL

Canada is not filled with people who feel belligerent, apparently. If you just naturally feel belligerent, all the time, discrimination and bullying proliferate. I think. I think it falls under the overly defensive, “YOU CAN’T DO THAT TO ME” mantra. Some people say it all day every day to themselves and then to others as well.

Patriarchy is a social system in which the male is the primary authority figure central to social organization, and where fathers hold authority over women, children, and property. It implies the institutions of male rule and privilege, and entails female subordination.

So, what we have here folks, is a rich guy runs the show history. Some do not know that women were also once considered property – and it was not that long ago.

I don’t know if Canada has many racists or not, but I do know that my Canadian in-laws didn’t much care for their son marrying AA woman. I lived in Toronto for 4 years, and found that yes, there is racism (not just toward blacks, but also toward the growing population of 3rd world immigrants), but much, MUCH more obvious, pronounced, fostered, and encouraged is their knee jerk anti-Americanism! It was SHOCKING and PAINFUL to say the least. It was my very first and only experience of overt discrimination. Canada is generally thought of as a tolerant nation. Looks are some times decieving.

No offense grahase, I really respect your opinions and intellect, but I’ve found that many Canadians are generally oblivious to their nations negatives and shortcomings.

p.s. Canadian culture is saturated and largely dominated by U.S. culture, so I’d say that most Canadians know much more about our culture than any other nation on earth.

Digger, It really depends on who you ask. There is overt racism, which is more than obvious. Then there is “every day” racism. Most of us are guilty of it without really giving it a second thought. Have you ever been sitting in your car with the doors unlocked, looked at a group of African American males walking up the street and quickly hit the door lock switch? Depending on where you are at the time, that action might or might not be reasonable, but in most circumstances it is unreasonable if you would not do the same if it was while males under the same circumstances. That is a simple explanation, but racism actually runs a bit deeper than that.
I look at it this way, we can’t claim racism does not exist until one’s race becomes irrelevant in a discussion. Here is another example. A new family moves in down the street and you have not had the opportunity to meet them, but your next door neighbor has. If one of the questions that comes to mind is their race, that is every day racism. It doesnt necessarily mean that you would immediately dislike that family or distrust them, but the very fact that race entered your mind is every day racism.
I hope that makes some sense. If you google “every day racism” you should be able to get more concrete examples.

Vicky, I did a little reading on what the research had revealed, shortly after I heard of and began to meditate on the ramifications of the Trayvon Martin case (let’s face it, until the legalities began to take up so much attention, this was NOT the George Zimmerman case). And the studies that were the most significant to me were those studies where a bunch of people, white, black, and all other “races,” were tested with a sort of video where images were put up on the screen and then they quickly were asked to name things — I can’t really describe the studies, but they were similar and there were many and they were the kinds of things where you couldn’t “fool” anybody because you weren’t being asked for opinions, such as “Black people commit lots of crimes” or the like.

When rapid, even unrecognizable or even subliminal images of African American faces were projected on the screen, in the subsequent testing ALL SUBJECTS (of all races and all subjects who later tested as not being prejudiced in written tests) recognized guns, knives, weapons in general, and other negative-association objects more quickly and more readily than they recognized, for instance, hats, door-knobs, staple-removers or thermostats. SURE WOKE ME UP!

A friend of mine is a well known actress and singer; she is also African American. I have been with her for weeks at a time while she was starring on Broadway and in other places where she is the gorgeous, well-dressed bejeweled celebrity and I’m an unrecognized, unknown, older, dumpy white woman in jeans and a parka. When we need a cab I have to catch the cab; nobody stops for her! Anyway, one time she called me during the OJ years (he was on trial, that is) and she engaged me in an important conversation. She was with a lover; he was white; I know him; they were arguing; she wanted my opinion.

“NOM [name omitted] is arguing with me that OJ is guilty. [At that point in time she thought OJ was innocent; she has changed her opinion since then, but then, she thought him innocent and I thought him guilty, but she had not yet asked me for my opinion.] I told him he is a racist and OJ is innocent.

BACKGROUND VOICE, NOM: I’m not a racist; he’s GUILTY!

My friend: What’s your opinion?

ME: On whether OJ is guilty or on whether NOM is a racist?

My friend: … both.

ME: I think OJ is guilty and I don’t know whether NOM is a racist or not!

My friend [totally baffled]: Huh?

Background: NOM: I don’t think OJ’s guilty because I’m a racist; I think he’s guilty because he did it!

My friend: Malisha? Tell me what YOU think, because YOU’RE not a racist!

ME: OK. I think OJ’s guilty. I don’t know whether NOM is a racist or not, but he certainly could think OJ was guilty without being a racist. And as to the third question, yes I AM a racist, and I think everyone born and raised in this country IS a racist, because we have that backdrop to contend with, and if we are more racist, shame on us, and if we are less racist, good for that and we need to deal with it some more.

Utter silence.

After that I had to do a lot of explaining and a lot of discussing, with both NOM and with my friend, on this issue. But I believe it. We are in a situation where the white people in this country by-in-large were part of a very unfortunate, very pervasive criminal conspiracy against African Americans, whom they only KNEW and only MET in the most bizarre, unnatural, coercive, extreme, and fearsome circumstances. Imagine, in 1812, a mere 200 years ago, any white person in this country meeting almost any Black person in this country would be meeting someone who was living every minute of every day under the threat of torture and death for some unnamed crimes essentially consisting of not pleasing white people. Um…how do you just go along and say, “hi, how you doin’?” under those circumstances? Then, a mere 100 years ago in 1912, almost any white person in this country meeting almost any Black person in this country would be meeting someone whose living conditions, educational background and financial situation might be so radically different that neither person could even necessarily chat about one issue or piece of current events that the other would automatically understand the context of! In addition, there would probably still be the fear factor involved because there was still rampant injustice in our “justice systems” and admitted inequality in our written laws.

Fast forward. AND IT WAS a fast forward. Where are we now? Don’t I assume when I meet an African American 17-year-old that he is more likely to be from a disadvantaged inner city than from the finest mansion in White Plains, NY? Don’t I assume that he’s not going to be the son of a professor from MIT and a research scientist from NIH? Even though I know African American 17-year-olds who ARE!

We have a lot to get over and not much time to work with; when we have a case like this in our consciousness it must also be in our consciences. We must be better than the Outhousers, in that we must go ahead and infer whatever it implies. And so we are here blogging our way out of a bog.

I am pretty sure that when George saw Trayvon, he thought, “Black criminal; I can take him.” I think George had enough knowledge of the institutionalized racism in Sanford to think he could get away with it, no matter what went down, and he nearly did get away with it. This belief that he could get away with anything he chose to do emboldened him to do all the things that amounted to crimes, most of which have not even been charged (assault and battery, assault with a deadly weapon, terroristic threatening, unlawful search and seizure, criminal mischief, unlawful detainment, unlawful restraint, attempted whatever they call kidnapping in Florida criminal law, display of a concealed weapon in a public place, blah blah blah).

I am also pretty sure that when Trayvon saw George, he thought, “uh oh what is that creepy white guy gonna try to do to me?” And his experience at age 17 would have given him plenty of reason to be afraid — not just of creepy white guys but of anyone that size who is not African American and who will not explain the motivation for his unwarranted interest.

Both of these thoughts were the products of the time and place both George and Trayvon grew up. We grew up here too.

WOW, very interesting malisha, i’ve never thought of it like that. But it certainly happened just like that.

And then you have people like me and people like my mom (was).
Me: people who are blackish and whitish = gray!.
My mom: was a white german.
But she was killed when i was a teen, before i had a chance to ask her what my real father looked like. I can only assume he must of been at least some other color b/c i don’t have the same coloring as her. And her father did disown her ( she was 17) for keeping me- as opposed to the initial plan to put me up for adoption. ( she didn’t tell me, i found a letter many years ago from a social worker to her about her change of plans. )

So, there are some people who weren’t racist, i think, like my mom. And i say that with such pride because she was born in Germany and her dad was a racist but she wasn’t!
And there are people like me who don’t claim ‘white’, and i explain that i’m not all white, sometimes when i feel like it. But my point is, that would make it technically impossible for me to be able to be racist. I could be a great bigot, but i could never be a proper racist! LOLOL

I have to join Vicky’s standing ovation. Very, very good, Malisha. A brillant follow up on Vicky’s comment.

Somehow the blog of a late blogger friend was on my mind while reading it. He once had this really wonderful historical article digging into the fears of the whites of drums. Blacks, Drums, Rhythm meant only on thing to them: Riot.

I liked black rhythm in language as a young student, it fascinated me to the extend that I wanted to explore how it works in language. I was sternly criticized I was not meant to get into it but to analyze it. In other words to keep my distance to this however defined “other”.

Drums to whites felt like something close to starting a riot, it was a threat and a threat only, David Mills aka Undercover Black Man taught me. It was a revelation and it made sense, given the historical context.

Vicky, What IS the true meaning of racism? I know there are different likes and dislikes in many respects, but racism is such a hot coal exactly how is it defined. Any reference you can suggest?
Seriously would like to better understand it’s meaning. Thanks

@Dave. The definition of racism has changed in the last 5 years or so. It actually applies to a system and not individuals, which is why when I refer to individual racism, I generally add the word “bigot” to it.

The following is something I’ve posted on this blog previously. IMHO, Paul Mooney provides a good definition and example of racism in its original definition.

Digger – IMO, you should Google racism and you will find all you need to know about racism, discrimination, stereotyping, etc. It is a broad topic and it is a good thing that you have taken an interest in understanding its meaning. I could only wish more would so the same. I am certain most could cite hundreds of examples that you could probably relate to, but, sometimes it is just too painful to write or read.

Digger I did make a video discussing stereotyping, prejudice and racism because a lot of people think that racism and prejudice are the same. It’s kinda long @30 min. but it may help you understand racism. Title on youtube is “George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Racial Elements.

Digger, when I read your comment I wonder if you are confused because some POSH, no idea how to put it in American English, think tanks like AIE harbor an author of The Bell Curve? And isn’t that a “scientific study” after all?

Or maybe somebody told you it is a meaningless slogan of the left.

I think quite a few influential US American’s spent quite a bit of their time to confuse you.

Could you tell us, precisely what made you ask your question the way you did?

@Zena, it is almost painful to watch. I am one of those who never watched or read the initial news feed on this case. I found out about the story on Mainstream Fair’s blog and quickly concluded that George Zimmerman criminally profiled a kid walking down the street with absolutely no justification. And in my opinion, part of that profile included the fact that his suspect was black. I didn’t include that aspect in my conclusion until I read documents released shortly thereafter. All I needed was to hear his non-emergency call to determine he was guilty of murder.
I have had extensive training in the use of firearms and was appalled at the idea that GZ or anyone else would find his conduct that night legally, ethically or morally justified.

@Zena, it is almost painful to watch. I am one of those who never watched or read the initial news feed on this case.

I first heard about the story on MSNBC, but was rather pessimistic because in 2010, we had a situation in Rockford with an unarmed Black man shot twice in the back by cops. Mark Anthony Barmore was in a church daycare center and the cops ran in with guns drawn. I know their playbook — how they always blame the victim.

My first impression, and current opinion is that the SPD racially profiled Trayvon’s parents as uneducated, oppressed, Steppin Fetchits. There are people who believe they can get away with murder, not because they are racial bigots but because those in authority are. Who they kill makes the difference when it comes to justice. GZ already knew how the SPD behaved in the situation with Sherman Ware. If he could play the same hand of cards that the cop’s son played, why shouldn’t he get off too?

Then, MSNBC played GZ’s NEN call and like you, that was a game changer for me. From there, all discovery released confirmed for me that GZ committed murder.

Right-wing heroes George Zimmerman and Anders Behring Breivik have both pleaded not guilty, claiming to have acted in self defence. Which is pretty sick when you think of it. One guy killed a kid armed only with Skittles and an Iced Tea. The other mowed down unarmed 77 kids with semi-automatic killing machine.

Yet both of these monsters are being defended by the right. Remember Sun News’ Michael Coren blaming the Norwegian victims for being too left? He thinks they deserved their fate. Remember too that Breivik was inspired by writings of wingnuts like Mark Steyn, a buddy of Coren’s.

Right wingers have been vociferously defending Zimmerman despite the overwhelming evidence that he racially profiled Trayvon Martin and killed him in cold blood because he was black. Although Zimmerman is Hispanic and is a registered Democrat, that hasn’t stopped conservatives again blaming the victim. To them, Martin deserved his fate because he wore a hoodie and walked around a gated community while being black.

Denial is a powerful thing. Racism is even stronger. Combine those with hate and an unshakeable belief in the teachings of the right-wing noise machine and you have a deadly combination. George Zimmerman has become the victim and his sad sack mug shot face the new Che Guevara icon of the right.

But it is Breivik who holds the most respect of the conservative base. He silenced forever the voices of dozens of leftists. They deserved it because they don’t believe in the same things the likes of Coren and Steyn hold so dear to their hearts. That’s the bottom line. You read it over and over in the right-wing press: “Kill ’em if they don’t agree with us.” Put a target on the politicians with whom you do not agree. Because you’re allowed such violent suggestion if you are a conservative. It’s not only allowed, it’s a duty.

You read it over and over in the right-wing press: “Kill ‘em if they don’t agree with us.” Put a target on the politicians with whom you do not agree. Because you’re allowed such violent suggestion if you are a conservative. It’s not only allowed, it’s a duty.

Grahase, I had always tried keeping my political views simple, but in 2008, I noticed things like what you are saying. What wrapped and put a bow on it for me were the Birthers. It occurred to me that the foundation for their arguments ran much deeper.

What the Birthers are really saying is that no teacher anywhere in America is suppose to fairly grade a Black student, even when he performs A and B work. For them, all White American teachers are suppose to encourage their Black male students to go into a vocation, and never aspire being anything more than an hourly employee.

Thus, in the subconscious of Birthers, what they are really saying is that Barack Obama had to have been born in another country, because Black Americans “know their place.”

That’s no different than Zimmerman, his family and Taaffe, and his supporters. Trayvon was suppose to know his place and according to them, since he failed to submit to an un-deputized nobody, he was not raised right, was a thug, would grow up being a burden on society and in jail had George not killed him.

Xena……For many people, it was the NEN call that made us see George as the aggressor. I had no knowledge of the case before HuffPost printed the transcript. Reading it, even without hearing George’s voice, I felt that he was either very paranoid or a real bully/control freak on a mission. There was something very WRONG about everything he stated on that call!

Xena……For many people, it was the NEN call that made us see George as the aggressor.

The first thing I noticed was his foul mouth. I mean, I can curse like a sailor if I want to, but there are certain communications with certain folks where you don’t use profanity and particularly, not in anger as George did.

If I’m going to call someone “assholes” it’s because they have done something personally to me — not because they look suspicious. There was no justification for George to call Trayvon “fucking coons” while chasing Trayvon. Trayvon, as a person, had done nothing wrong to be referred to in the plural either.

Along with first noticing his filthy mouth, I could hear his breathing change and the wind before the dispatcher asked if he was following Trayvon. Now, I don’t care how much GZ and the Zidiots argue that he wasn’t running. The fact is that the dispatcher heard what we heard, and it prompted him to ask George if he was following.

The idea that George would get out of his truck and follow is — well — puzzling when I first heard the recording. Who did this man think he was? Not only was he disrespectful with his potty mouth, but took it upon himself to follow Trayvon.

IF we take George at his word, I would apply the following analogy;
1. He called NEN to report a rabid dog running loose in the community.

2. Because the dog runs, he doesn’t wait for animal control or the cops to arrive, but leaves the safety of his vehicle to follow the dog who he has reported appears to be rabid.

3. The dog bites him. He kills the dog but says he would not have done so had the dog not bitten him.

4. He refuses to receive medical treatment to verify whether he contracted rabies.

It certainly has to say something that, even with all the bungling of the investigation, all the mishandling of the evidence, all the attempts to tamper with the witnesses, GZ’s guilt still comes shining through.

It certainly has to say something that, even with all the bungling of the investigation, all the mishandling of the evidence, all the attempts to tamper with the witnesses, GZ’s guilt still comes shining through.

Yep. O’Mara knows that too, which is why he’s trying to throw as much ca-ca against the wall that he can hoping something will stick. He tactics only make GZ stink more. Stinky, stinky, stinky.

Thank you gbrbsb. There are times we can “agree quickly with thine adversary,” by taking their words and applying it to an analogy to show them that they make no sense. George’s “logic” for getting out of his truck makes no sense, especially when compared with his description of the “suspicious guy.” It doesn’t help George either that he refers to Trayvon as the ‘suspect” in his written report. GZ is not qualified, nor authorized, to follow a “suspect” out of the safety of his vehicle.

Yes Xena. What do you bet that had Trayvon been a rabid dog loose on the estate, GZ would have, if he had any sense, stayed put or if possible following in his truck, waiting for the police to arrive and deal with it; or if reckless and with a gun he would have got out of his truck to follow the dog and shoot it dead. Hmmm… and with Trayvon?!

…or if reckless and with a gun he would have got out of his truck to follow the dog and shoot it dead. Hmmm… and with Trayvon?!

Reckless, indeed. Here’s an expansion of the analogy.
1. GZ description of the dog is that it is rabid. He is observing the dog, and when the dog runs, he gets out of the safety of his vehicle and follows the dog.
2. GZ kills the dog on the basis that it attacked and bit him.
3. GZ refuses to go to the hospital, although he alleged that the dog was rabid and the bite caused him great bodily harm and threatened his life.
4. The dog is tested and no trace of rabies or any other medical reason is found. That in fact, there is no forensic evidence proving that the dog bite GZ.
5. GZ is charged with animal cruelty.
6. GZ defends the charge on the basis that the dog bit him.

Now, let’s work our way back to the beginning.
See number 1. The dog COULD NOT have bitten GZ had he stayed in his truck.

See number 4 — Taking it from GZ’s story, what set the dog off to bite GZ? Was it the headlights of the truck? The dog WOULD NOT have bitten GZ had it not been frightened and (See number 1) COULD NOT have bitten him had he not left his truck.

See number 6. The dog was not rabid as GZ assumed and in fact, there is no proof from the dog’s body that it bit GZ. GZ had a bite wound that was cleaned up on site and treated with nothing more than peroxide. He refused to go to the hospital. There is no evidence of how GZ acquired the dog bite, but there is evidence that the dog he killed did not bite him.

I humbly thank you, but I wish that were true in all things — have a special project and have been working 2 weeks researching court decisions in the 7th Cir that defines “employer.” I’m now on the SCOTUS’ decision in Suder trying to formulate an argument on “employees and agents.”

Or… Wounds on GZ’s head opened within 2.5 minutes of the police arrival, flowed blood in the pattern displayed and dried within the 10 minutes between then and the medics examining it.

Meanwhile a simple wipe of the blood away from the wounds, obviously revealed that these superficial wounds were no longer open and bleeding, thus no bandages needed. You don’t have to bandage wounds that have already closed. But, even superficial wounds take more than 10 minutes to close. So where did these wounds come from? “The fight” is not long enough ago for them to have happened then. They are probably too old to be created during the NEN call. So, the only other available place and time for creation is, before GZ left home.

I would hope that the FBI casts a wide net and examines and looks for connections, between known hate groups and the Sandford gov’t. Because this is looking more and more like an initiation than an errant killing decided upon on the spot. Is that possible? You bet it is, hate groups in the state have said they have connections/members who are in various local gov’t offices and in some instances that has proven to be the case, ala Southern Poverty Law Office.

Xena, probably a stupid question as I´m obviously not getting something, but what is the reason for many of you calling GZ Cheorge with a CH?

We credit Malisha with that. 🙂 It’s because GZ sings out the beginning of his words. Remember when he took the voice stress test that the technician asked him to stop humming his answers? In the same manner, when GZ answered the dispatcher’s question on race he replied “He looks blackkak.”

What clinches the case for any Judge is that George never once took advantage of the opportunity to identify himself! Once he admitted that he was following TM, even if only briefly, he was admitting to an illegal act, from which everything else springs.

As far as his intentions: He utters profanity at the suspect, then refuses to identify himself. Meaning that he created, supported and maintained a seriously dangerous atmosphere with hostility, which he chose not to abate. A NW’er is not supposed to instill fear, because, every professional who manages NW programs, realize that creates danger for all involved. GZ had been taught about that danger and how it works, so if he had intentions of keeping the neighborhood safe, he would have identified himself to abate the hostile atmosphere he created. Instead he safeguarded it. Now add in the fact that he was carrying a concealed firearm, in pursuit of an unarmed youth, and you get a terrible picture of what GZ had intended.

So, in the end GZ is attempting to say, that the hostile atmosphere his own sinster actions created, provoked an attack on himself, and that he could not defend against that attack, in any other way but by killing his attacker, BECAUSE he had a fire arm in his possession!

He’s saying that he had to kill, because he felt he might otherwise lose control of his own firearm.

Of course, the evidence shows this not to be the case! But, even if, in arguendo, it was, GZ would still be guilty!

Great exchange, triggered by VIcky. Yes, obviously there is a political context. Unfortunately, maybe as a German considering the limited retributive powers of the Nuernberg trials, I am hesitant about God’s plan or retributive justice, which ends the discussion so far.

Obviously there is a larger political context and that may well be apart from “Justice for Trayvon” that attracts, since I have been struggling to understand it for over a decade now.

I hate to poke fun at anyone on Thanksgiving, but I can’t resist this comment made at the CTH.

“George, we signed the White House petition and have spread the word. Sure, they ask for your name and email address but I believe in standing up for what is right. The Martins were able to get a million signatures on their petition. Something is wrong, terribly wrong if we cannot come up with 2500 signatures for George. Come on people, stand up and make a stand. Spread the word about this petition please.”

Gee, I wonder what could possibly be terribly wrong?
Note the Freudian Typo (2500 signatures). If they even achieve that number, they should run out and buy a lottery ticket.

…sign and report as inappropriate! Now that is hilarious. I hardly ever read over there, but I it’s such a quiet night, I figured I’d give it a look.
I sometimes feel sorry for them. To be so ignorant really is sad. They don’t understand the true meaning of racism. They assume anyone who opposes George believes that racism only comes from “white” people. They have some misguided notion that we would all change our mind about GZ’s culpability if it was proven that Trayvon did punch George in the nose. They do not have a clear understanding of the Bill of Rights and our criminal justice system. They are shocked that so many Caucasians support Trayvon’s family and the efforts they have made to bring this case before the courts. They completely lack critical thinking skills. They lack empathy for the parents of a murdered child. They don’t know the difference between imply and infer. I could go on, but I’ve taken up enough space.

They don’t subscribe to “the rule of law” and probably don’t realize it. Yet, when it comes to their turn in court, like Taaffe’s DUI, they hire a lawyer and expect the rule of law to work for them. Where they get the idea that one can selectively support the U.S. Constitution is beyond me, if it’s not for everyone, then it’s for no one!

Fortunately, history has shown that we’re leaving their world behind.
There’s an article about it on my blog [http://themindlesspraetorianblog.blogspot.com/] shouldn’t be too hard to find as it was posted recently, the one with the picture about evolution in it. It’s a long one but a very good read.

I am cracking up at the signatures….dontdropthesoapZ…..HeSkipped….bahaaahaaa. he has so many supporters? Where are they? I wonder if this gives us any indication of how the donations are flowing. Gz and wifey are eating on the dollar menu if that’s the case!

That just makes me sick. Trayvon is dead. His empty place at the Thanksgiving table will be noticed this year and every year hereafter while GZ sits down with his family and friend, though I hope under very different circumstances next year.

I know Rachael. And with Christmas, and especially……what would have been Trayvon’s 18th birthday, and what would have been his graduation from high school yet to come….important milestones in a young person’s life, he won’t be able to experience………………………….
…..All because of George, the delusional control freak……..
GRRRRRRRRRRRRR……

Something is wrong, terribly wrong if we cannot come up with 2500 signatures for George.

HA! Something is wrong. Maybe those who think George is innocent but who won’t sign the petition remember their constitutional class from high school, or had a political science in college, and understand constitutional separation of powers. Or —

Maybe what is wrong is that George killed an unarmed 17 yr old, 11th grader, who was doing no wrong, and then George lied a day later in his re-enactment about his conversation with the dispatcher. Or —

Maybe what is wrong is that those who have made their support for George known have demonstrated the most filthy, dirty, racially bigoted expressions and mocking of death ever imagined since Hitler and the Jews, and those otherwise believing George is innocent don’t want to be associated with the racial bigots. Or —

Maybe what is wrong is the Hannity interview where people who believe they know God also know that it was not God’s plan for George to get out of his truck with a loaded gun and follow Trayvon, resulting in taking Trayvon’s life.

But essentially, the only thing that is wrong for why more people are not signing the petition is one person — George M. Zimmerman. He’s toxic. He’s toxic to his friends,his family, and belong long, to his supporters who are stupid enough to let the federal government know they support — either with or without knowledge — sovereign citizenship.

The Zidiots act like just because they say that petition is in support of Zimmerman, that people are suppose to sign without reading it first. Maybe if that petition requested something possible for the Obama Administration, the Zidiots might have 10 more signatures. 🙂

Those are the same people who, during the Bush years, felt so empowered. Only to have Bush implement their ideas, and watch them lead to disaster after disaster. The tax cuts didn’t work to create jobs or prosperity. Instead, they made it possible for CEO’s and corporate executives, to take their compensation in salaries in the hundreds of millions, instead of having to take it in stock and options. Taking their compensation in ordinary income, allowed them to ignore the health of the companies they ran, so we saw them taking huge paydays, even while the company sank beneath the waves.

Had the highest tax bracket prevented them from taking compensation as salaries and benefits, but instead forced them to keep taking their pay in stock and options, they’d have had to make sure the company performed, to hold and increase the value of their new found holdings. When they did that, the stocks would rise and all the shareholders would benefit, pumping money into the economy, not just into the pockets of a few company big wigs. So the economy shed jobs. As taxes when down so did the economy!

If that wasn’t disheartening enough for them, deregulation also disproved itself in the huge financial mess it made. Remember how they loved to rail that “companies wouldn’t harm themselves”? Well, it turned out that, that’s exactly what they did.

So now they’ve got no Romney presidency, Creationism, Intelligent Design, and everything else they’ve been railing for, is slowly spinning down the drain. People are waking up to just how toxic these people are, such that even the massive Gerrymandering of Tom Delay’s “permanent republican majority” project, could not save them. All the clever designs of Karl Rove can’t help them, because too many people are living with the “proof of the pudding” messes their illogical thinking has made.

So the people you’re seeing take up George’s cause are anachronisms. People who probably have Neanderthal genes in dominance. They don’t believe in either science or even simple math, they don’t cotton to evidence, thinking as the world once did, that emotion was the right motivational force for shaping society. They are unable to change, a prominent feature of Neanderthal culture.

Two things we can do: 1. Let them keep signing up, the FBI will have them in their database, in case they ever commit a racist crime and try to claim they’re not racist. Or 2. Encourage them to sign up, and make them too paranoid to do so.

“Lonnie, Many of them at the CTH have stated that they would like to sign the petition but, they don’t want to leave their location/information, or something to that effect.”
=====================================

I guess their support of GZ doesn’t run that deep, eh?
No doubt they’ve noticed that their opponents, often put
themselves at risk to support what they believe in.
I believe there’s a word for that!

March 28, 2012.
The Change.org petition created by Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton calling for the prosecution of their son Trayvon Martin’s killer, George Zimmerman, has become the fastest-growing campaign in the site’s history.

The petition called “Prosecute the killer of our son, 17-year-old Trayvon Martin,” has gained over 2.1 million signatures since its launch on March 8. During its most viral stages, more than 1,000 people were signing the petition each minute.
______________________________

So in 20 days that petition had over 2.1 million signatures.
Today it has 2, 228,121!!!!! Almost 2.5 million individual people signed it!
GZ’s BS petition can’t even begin to get that kinda support. He’s gonna rot in hell ( right after his 25 plus years in prison ) and he’s bring all his stupid zimmerlovers with him!
I say good riddance and good bye!!

Oh he is guilty, but they will never admit to that…ever. Maybe they’re too tired tonight from eating too much turkey, because they usually jump at the chance to bad mouth Tray, Natalie and Crump, or maybe they are afraid of bigboi. LOL

I don’t think they have held off because they have realized anything about Cheorge; their opinions are driven by their own emotions, not by their appreciation of any set of facts about Cheorge. They also don’t mind defending someone who is wrong, or anything like that. I think some of the fun has gone out of their race-baiting and their belligerent, pompous posturing; I don’t really know why this is, haven’t made much of a study of them, don’t care very much.

Flexican is probably the only one among Cheorge’s early apologists who has changed his position because of an actual evaluation of factual evidence; in this way he is very unusual and actually fascinating. The rest of them wouldn’t change their mind if Jesus arrived, walked down off the Mount, and personally told them that Cheorge murdered Trayvon in cold blood and he was offended by that himself.

I’ve got to admit that I often can’t follow Super Flexican’s videos. But I’m not surprised that he was a LEO; he knows a lot about ballistics, heuristics, and cop stuff. I’m older than most of his viewers though; I’m 65; hard to believe. 😛

I’ve had to deal with flexican several months ago, before he got a slightly better grip on reality. ( BTW, he’s the only one i’ve ever heard of being banned from you tube like 5X for saying “nigger” in his videos too much) Back then, for awhile, he was all for GZ and Trayvon was a lil wanna be thug that thought he was big and bad and messed with the wrong person, even though GZ was an idiot too, according to Mr Flexican. Then as more evidence came out, he slowly began to acquiesce: to maybe GZ shouldn’t have shot and killed Trayvon, he shoulda just injured him…then maybe Trayvon did this or that, but GZ didn’t need hard time…etc…and apparently now, he’s all on Tray’s side, except that he still, for some strange reason, he still says there’s evidence proving Trayvon did in fact get back to Brandy’s house, but he decided to turn around and GO BACK to confront GZ!! HUH???

Basically, he’s changed his stance on several issues for the better and i’m happy for that since he still keeps his presence on line cussing out the Zimmerlovers (which is something i respect from anyone willing 🙂 ) .
But, He was super disrespectful toward this dead, innocent child and any FOT= friends of Trayvon, including Trent Sawyer, for a long time.

For me, it wouldn’t bother me so much for someone to devote their time to a cause they care about even though i disagree, but he went over that line by maligning and degrading Trayvon while he did so. That is unforgivable to me. It’s never OK to call a victim who cannot defend themselves a “no limit nigger”, or any other derogatory name, especially an innocent 17 year old! Period.

Besides, i sat there and wasted 14 minutes watching that first video and learned NOTHING but his sob story!!! He didn’t even say what the 21 feet rule was! And then he shows this cartoon, blabbers on for like 5 minutes, but NEVER explained the significance of it either!!! WTF!?? He needs a story. The beginning the middle and the end!

@shannoninmiami, while I did not know flexican’s Youtube history, my problem with his videos are the same that I have with that of videos by anyone that are more than 10 minutes of expressing opinions only.

Well, I included the Superfilexican videos because of the interpretation of the evidence. LLMPapa has given the Coincidence video and these others came to mind. In the video, he tells you what the 21 foot rule is by telling you to look it up. Like many, I think he feels there are far too many people STILL believe what they see and hear on the web.

I think the Filexican is really, really rough around the edges. He was LE. He believed GZ innocent. Then, as evidence began to emerge, he found the evidence proves GZ is NOT.

I don’t know about the position of Trayvon’s arms. I used the autopsy image for illustration.

Were they standing? If they weren’t, it’s an unparalleled coincidence that the distance up from the ground to a bullet’s point of entry and direct trajectory, 17 1/2″ down from the top of the head of a 5’11” tall victim, matches so closely to the line of fire from a gun in the outstretched arm of a shooter who’s 5’8″ tall.

LLMPapa, the first video that I saw by you was shared on TheJBMission. It was “How? Pt. 3,” and was captivating. My son has 12 yrs in the military and he said it is impossible for GZ to make that type of shot while on his back.

I wonder if you’d get the same measurements if they were both kneeling? Yes, it is a strange coincidence that.

But also consider that, if TM’s arms were raised, that would also raise his garments, against GZ pulling them down and to the left.
If you know where the holes in the garments are, and how oval or circular they are, you can mark the exact positions of the holes, then put the garments on a person of similar size and pull, if TM’s arms were up, you won’t get the holes to line up, unless the actor raises his arms. Also the shape of the holes when the grip is released, as is the case now on the original garments, leaves the circles somewhat flattened as the material relaxes back in the opposite direction to the pulling.

In any event I don’t believe that TM had his arms raised. With GZ gripping his garments and aiming his gun, there would be little TM could do, he was probably paralyzed with fear and would not raise his hands, since that might give added offense.

I’m actually thinking that TM saw something or someone, who his testimony would involve, that would make matters even worse for GZ. If so, then GZ had to shut TM up. For example, if TM had seen that the guy in the car, was not GZ, but someone else. Or realized that GZ was not the guy chasing him back north away from his house, that would have to be concealed by GZ. Or, even if TM could testify that GZ had his weapon drawn much earlier than GZ says, that would certainly expose GZ to a twenty year prison sentence, in which case GZ would find it necessary to shoot him.

Not that much more than we have is needed to convict GZ, but I suspect there is still more to it than we already know.

I also believe there is quite a bit we do not know. First off, there is evidence the police AND prosecutor AND defense have not wanted the public to see or read. Who was escorted out of the March 1, 2012 HOA meeting and why? What were Osterman’s exact movements that night? What calls were made by ALL phones owned or accessed by Zimmerman, Shellie, Tim Smith, Mark Osterman, Osterman’s wife, Taaffe, Zimmerman’s father, Shellie’s parents, Billy Lee, Trayvon Martin’s cell phone — including incompleted calls and/or 911 calls — etc. The witnesses who made significant changes in their stories — like the guy who went from “MMA” to “I dunno.” ?????

“Crump and Natalie Jackson are responsible for George being a racist murderer”

Robert Sr stated that George would act the same to Asians if that is how he felt about Asian people ie racist generalizing of blacks

Robert Jr always brings up race without it being asked and repeatedly only attacks black people supporting justice for Trayvon ie he does not like black people

Frank Taffe stated that they generalize all blacks as criminals and burglars, even though evidence shows there was barely any crime in the complex and they are being unreasonable ie they dont like black people

George targets and instigates a confrontation and murder based on his perceptions of race and is even heard screaming epithets towards even a kid and killing him (a potential one is where he said Coons)… his myspace has him talking about beating criminal charges, jooking his ex, and talking bad about mexicans and how he is tougher than all mexicans because they are all wanna be thugs ie he is a racist murderer

Now that they are outed, on behavior, they publicly showcased themselves, what do they do? They blame the black lawyers LMAO

Gee, I dont know why anyone would think they are racist or that George is a racist murderer

George Zimmerman took advantage of the recent halloween holiday to get in some RnR..Takeing advantage of the opertunity to wear a mask an costume..He visited a few bars with Shellie dressed as the Lone Ranger and Tonto.Eventually wound up at a comedy club .Things were swinging a long nicelly untill the final act took to the stage a ventriliqeust act.The comic an his Dummy started working comments about George Zimmerman into his act an how dumb he was .The audience was roring with laughter about the detrimental jokes made at Georges expence.Finally George could take it no more he got to his feet in a Rage yelling at the stage .How dare you make fun of this man an the tragedy that befallen him .Give the guy a break an let him have his day in court .In stead of turning it into a laughing stock.The comedian appoligised towards the Lone Ranger an told him .Look Im just trying to earn a liveing .The Lone Ranger goes ballistic shouting S T F U no ones talkinf to you Im talking to the little guy sitting in your lap.

Malisha says: “It’s as if the fact that George killed a human being is no longer on their radar screen at all.”

Exactly, the Zimbeciles just took a side for various reasons and want to win at any cost, as if it is a sport, totally losing sight of the fact that a kid was killed by GZ for absolutely no good reason
….Traygone….

@Colin Black. Think of that petition like this — it’s not about winning. Rather, it’s about
1. Removing the possibility of GZ’s case being decided by a court of law, and;
2. Taking GZ’s defense out of O’Mara’s hands.

Now, put that together with Junior promoting the petition and what do we have? The possibility that O’Mara has told GZ’s family that because of the evidence, GZ is going to prison for the rest of his life.

Junior, O’Mara and the Zidiots are looking for any means possible to put others on trial because they know GZ is guilty of murder 2. Now, combine that with the type of tit for tat, vindictive characteristics of the likes of GZ, Junior, and the Zidiots. Since GZ is looking at life in prison, they would like to take some others down with him; i.e., attorneys Crump and Jackson.

I don’t know about you guys, but I think Junior had better cool his jets. He spouts about his brothers reputation being tarnished. He spouts about libel and slander. Yet, he is bad-mouthing, on television and radio programs, in the papers, Twitter, and who knows what else. He hasnt realy talked about GZ very much. He has moved on to the Crump Jackson conspiracy, mirroring the rabid tree nuts. I would think that he would check his facts before his mouth starts moving. Skating on thin ice, in my opinion.

In my opinion Junior is an ignorant fund-raiser and as stupid and big a liar as GZ. Facts mean nothing to the arrogant Zimmerman family. They simply don’t give a care about anything but their image and the income generated from their websites to pay for GZ attorney and their living expenses. Do any of the Zimmerman’s actually have a job? Do they even have the ability to wrap their brain around the fact that GZ caused the death of an innocent teen by profiling him, following and killing him? This PR tour is nothing but a money-making and fame seeking opportunity for RZ Jr.

I don’t know about you guys, but I think Junior had better cool his jets. He spouts about his brothers reputation being tarnished.

Right, as if George had a good and clean reputation before he killed Trayvon. We don’t need to put his killing of Trayvon into the “Life of George Zimmerman” to see what type of reputation he has. George was a nobody going no where. He has a gang tattoo. He disparaged Mexicans on his MySpace page. He got into trouble with the law. He failed at business with his insurance agency. He failed college. He has a history of job terminations. He hazed and humiliated a co-worker. He deceived his attorney in a civil case. He called the cops on his landlord because HE was behind in his rent.

And — and — according to his cousin, (not attorneys Crump nor Jackson), he sexually molested his cousin over a period of 10 yrs while they were children, and sexually molested at least one other child.

In addition, GZ attacked an undercover cop, kicked a dog, threw a woman and broke her ankle as a bouncer at a rave party, chased down a car because he thought the driver spit at him, turned off his mother s utilities, slapped his fiancé, terrorized a coworker through bullying tactics, won a settlement and refused to pay his attorney, and caused his neighbor to fear walking in his own neighborhood. This person is above reproach, according to his brother and squeaky clean according to SPD. All of this speaks to GZ’s disposition and to his possible mindset of the evening of Feb 26, 2012.

jm, I don’t care about credit.
I don’t care very much about the story or the comment either.
Such silliness they are engaged in! It’s as if the fact that George killed a human being is no longer on their radar screen at all.

Malisha says: “It’s as if the fact that George killed a human being is no longer on their radar screen at all.”

Exactly, the Zimbeciles just took a side for various reasons and want to win at any cost, as if it is a sport, totally losing sight of the fact that a kid was killed by GZ for absolutely no good reason.

They are not even concerned for their own well being, after all, who wants to live under a law that says, you have to be prepared to kill someone at any point in time? Since the survivor wins, the sneakiest killer gets to do it again and again.

Lonnie Star, I can’t do that kind of analysis, that you did this morning, but when I read it, it pops out at me and becomes clear. Thanks very much!

I also believe that others helped George that evening but he will not say so because to say so would kick up the Murder-2 to a Murder-1 and he doesn’t want to run that risk.

I know some people who were involved in a crime, against their will actually. I believe, 90%, that I know what happened, but they will not say so. Even though they have had to pay for their silence by losing their cases when charged with crimes OTHER THAN the one they did get involved in, they remain silent. I think the reason is that the crime they were NOT charged with carries a greater penalty, although they would have a much MUCH better chance of getting off altogether. There was kind of a corrupt “agreement” on the part of a state agency and the prosecutor to NOT CHARGE the actual crime so that the real facts, which would make them look very bad, could be kept out of court. And that is what I think is happening in the Zimmerman case, although for different reasons and in a procedurally different manner. I hate to be so secretive about it but don’t want to use real facts. The bottom line is this: George won’t tell about the others. They were helping him not get charged at all but it didn’t work out. He WAS, after all, the shooter.

Serrino not only informed wittnrses that it was gz screaming on the tape..He had to inform gz that it was him screaming when he played the tape ….gz response was a nugget of truth from his lips…Doesnt even sound like me?

GZ had claimed the screams as his own. It was not until Serino played the 911 call that GZ heard the captured screams. He had no idea that the screams had been captured on a 911 call.

GZ possibly felt that Serino and Singleton KNEW that was not his voice. His statement, “That doesn’t even sound like me” was to fish out where they were going. Did they believe it was him screaming or not?

Thereafter when he did the voice exemplar, GZ did not alter his story and say that he screamed anything other than “help” and “help me” because when the tape was played for him, his mind was directed at the sound of the voice and not the words.

George just plain thought everyone HAD to believe him because they HAD to assume he was doing right against somebody who was about to do wrong. He didn’t even TRY to make it logical or persuasive. Whenever he couldn’t explain away a discrepancy he blithely said, “I don’t know” or “I don’t remember.” Screams? He just felt like he should say he screamed and then everybody would assume the screams were HIS. Nobody has to do stuff like CHECKING INTO HIS STORY.

The SPD did the same. They said there was “no evidence” that it was NOT self-defense, and they repeated that stupid statement several times, while giving inaccurate information to the press, and thought that would wrap it up and make it a closed case. Had the public not reared up in outrage, that would have sufficed.

The NEN call was widely broadcast a few days before GZ did his voice test so presumably even if Serino didn´t play it to him at the time he most likely heard it beforehand. This fact is what makes me think that GZ did cry out his ineffectual “help mes”, which I can think I hear in the background, but that these were not the “I´m begging you”, “I don´t know… “, nor the shrieks of “help” or “stop” of which he makes no comment nor does he even try to imitate… because even an actor as bad as GZ could do a better imitation than he die.

The fact GZ says “it doesn´t EVEN sound like me” IMO indicates there was something else he was comparing or referring to otherwise he would have said straight off “it doesn´t sound like me”. The fact he qualifies with “EVEN” to me means more or less “the words aren´t mine and the voice doesn´t EVEN sound like” as his little “help mes” are much softer than the shrieks and screams of pain.

IMO it boils down to semantics; cry, call, yell, scream, shriek, holler, wail, whine, etc. each has its own nuance. GZ called, yelled perhaps even cried out or hollered for someone to help him, not because he was in fear of his life, but he wanted help to restrain his “suspect”. Trayvon on the other hand screamed, shrieked, wailed, whined and hollered in agony and pain for someone to save him.

IMO the witness statements might hold the key. From what I recall each witness uses different words at different times for different sounds they heard and sometimes even the same words but for different sounds. I believe they heard both GZ and Trayvon, sometimes one sometimes the other but they were blurred together by the physical elements (space, buildings, walls, etc.) and by the horrific event that was unfolding.

Agree. I have the tendency to listen to things and determine facts based on what wasn’t said. The first 911 call came from Jenna and Jeremy’s house. Jenna said that someone was yelling for help. Now remember the dispatcher asked her a question. This is very important. She asked if Jenna knew why they were screaming for help. Jenna said she didn’t know why.

Here’s a situation where GZ says he was in fear of losing his life, but not one witness who called 911 said that a man was being beaten and crying out for help. What witnesses heard was completely disconnected in their perception as screams related to getting an ass whipping. What they described easily concludes literal crying, fear, agony. The reason for the cries ended with the gunshot.

Now, this is where GZ’s statements work against him AGAIN, because he said that he asked for help to restrain Trayvon. Yet, the person he asked for that help calls 911 but does not tell the dispatcher that a person is crying for help to restrain another person.

Don’t worry about it, anyone who is familiar with the internet posting problems knows that posting often drops letters, changing tense, case and singular to plural and causing words to appear misspelled all the time. Even after I proof read my posts, they don’t appear correctly, sometimes even making one appear illiterate or without grammatical skills and such. Is why, I will sometimes drop a word or two that only serves to make the sentence read with better grammar, if the sense of it is already there without need for the extra words.

GBrd, are you sure??? i thought Mr.Crump had to get a court order to get the 911 calls from the SPD? Wasn’t it awhile before we -the public, got to hear the tapes because SPD refused to release them saying they were part of thier on-going/non-going investigation? I didn’t find out about the case until Nancy Grace did here show and the tapes had been released by then… Does anyone know the time GZ did the exemplar?

“@Xena says, Here’s a situation where GZ says he was in fear of losing his life, but not one witness who called 911 said that a man was being beaten and crying out for help. What witnesses heard was completely disconnected in their perception as screams related to getting an ass whipping. What they described easily concludes literal crying, fear, agony. The reason for the cries ended with the gunshot.”

Wow what an observation! i wish i could think like that! ( i’m getting this program for Ally ( alexander) by a company called Critical Thinking, for kindergartners called “Building Thinking Skills®” Primary
Read • Trace • Write About • Math, Science & Social Studies)
but i’m afraid i’ll be doin a lot of that thar’ book learnin’!) 😦

Please, if you get a chance, could you elaborate on this subject, b/c i really think this is an awesome tell into what was seen by these so-called witnesses.

Please, if you get a chance, could you elaborate on this subject, b/c i really think this is an awesome tell into what was seen by these so-called witnesses.

Shannon, I don’t know if I can elaborate. Patricia is good articulating what I try to put into words based on what I hear. There are 3 things that they all agree on — someone cried for help, there was a gunshot, and the cries stopped.

What they don’t say that GZ wants us to believe is;
1. None of the witnesses called 911 and said “Someone is getting hurt.”
2. None called 911 and said “Someone needs help restraining a person.”
3. None called 911 and said, “There’s a guy outside getting beat up and he’s crying out for help.”

Someone was crying for help because whatever was happening, they knew that they individually could not stop it — not for physical reasons but because the other person was threatening with more than physical force — like having a gun.

@Shannoninmiami: The 911 call with the screams was released Friday 17th March (source Orlando Sentinel) while GZ didn´t do his voice test until 22nd March (source Axoiomamnesia).

I checked this months ago when wondering how come GZ had made no attempt whatsoever to imitate the desperate screams even though he had had ample opportunity to hear and practice them. I was even more gob-smacked when finding out he told Serino “It doesn´t even sound like me” (I´m not sure if he didn´t actually say “It doesn´t even sound like my voice” but I would have to check that).

GZ´s pathetic “help mes” are almost always three in quick succession whether in interviews, during the re-enactment or in his ejemplars. For this reason I concluded that for the ejemplars GZ just repeated what he did, i.e. “help me, help me, help me”, (i.e. “help me restrain the guy”).

This possibility is further supported by at least one witness (maybe more but it is a long time since I heard the tapes), who said he heard “help me, help me, help me” (same three again!) and I am near certain that I hear GZ´s ineffectual “help me” several times underneath the screaming on the 911 call. BUT GZ´s “help me, help me, help me” does in no way account for the agonising screams and other utterances that came from someone who was clearly in pain and anguish (physical, arm/wrist lock etc. and/or psychological) and that someone was without any doubt Trayvon. To me it also explains why GZ, on not even recognising the words, told Serino on hearing the tape, “It doesn´t EVEN sound like me”.

shannoninmiami: at the end of my reply after, “It doesn´t EVEN sound like me”, I should have added that as GZ never claimed ownership of any of the other utterances heard on the tape, his use of EVEN, which presupposes at least one other thing in the equation, is very perplexing unless he was really meaning “I don´t remember the words and it doesn´t EVEN sound like me/my voice”.

It may be I am just nit picking. The use of EVEN in phrases as these is subtle but IMO it is important, more especially if you take into account that GZ never once claimed he yelled anything other than “help me” while there are several clear utterances on the tape (e.g. I´m begging you) that in no way can correspond to the words “help me”.

Not that I wish to defend GZ at all, but I’ve said the exact same thing because recording devices often change what we perceive our voices to sound like. After making recordings for voicemail messages, I swear that voice isn’t the “me” I think I am. This point might just be a red herring. No, it wasn’t his voice, BUT the phrase is common enough to attach no special meaning to whatever GZ said.

We must not forget that the only reason the experts have said, they could not positively say that it was TM’s voice, was because they had nothing from TM to compare it to. I’m pretty certain that over the years the family has recordings of TM’s voice, which were not provided for these tests. I believe that when these are provided the matter will be settled in TM’s favor. Until then the SP is probably not working too hard to finalize their work on the matter, meaning that it will not be discoverable until they do. Giving GZ additional time to dig his hole deeper. I’m sure MOM knows this and is disheartened by the fact that it will appear at trial.

MOM’s case is so “backstopped” in so many ways, he probably can’t figure out a way to turn to get GZ out of the pickle he’s in. He’s given so many easily refutable versions, all of which conflict with the evidence, that MOM can’t figure out how to put on anything more than an emotional case. That might work if all the SP had was counter emotional fare, but the SP has hard evidence, so emotion will fail.

Lonnie Starr, regardless of whether they get expert confirmation that the screaming voice was Trayvon’s, I think that hearing Zimmerman’s voice on the tape at the same time will be convincing to the jury.

@gblock: For sure, that and the circumstances are more than enough to form a correct opinion. Those screams are coming from a wide opened, large mouth and throat. GZ has a small mouth and throat and he just isn’t used to opening it wide if he can. Add in the lung power and pitch and you get youth! All GZ can manage is a deep growl, or a weak peep peep if he tries to pitch higher.

The forensics may not find enough to “hang a hat on”, but that doesn’t mean that a human can’t discern a difference. We have not yet found a way for a machine to duplicate the human skills of detection. A machine, for example, can find no way to appreciate Mozart over Beethoven.

Grahase, I have been wondering about that person who was at the March 1, 2012 HOA meeting since I heard about that event. In fact, my theory of the case involves that person, so I’m going to give that person a name. I’m going to call him/her “Doe.”

Here’s how I see it happening. Doe is, I believe, a homeowner. At the time in September 2011 when Cheorge started running around with a clipboard signing folks up for NW and so forth, he might or might not have met Doe, but definitely Doe was not in his (Cheorge’s) band of “protect yo neighborhood” vigilante-crazies. Doe was also not enamored of the “We are better than them inferiors who’s been movin’ in here scamperin’ round” mentality.

As the NW stuff became more and more silly at the HOA meetings, I think DOE was a little alarmed and also alarmed by the profiling e-mails Cheorge was sending around the neighborhood and the fliers and Cheorge’s activities, as reported by Ibraham Rashada to the Miami Herald. DOE called the SPD at least twice in some measure of consternation about Cheorge’s activities. Chief Lee “took care of” those whiny complaints. Chief Lee reckoned Cheorge as among his fans because Cheorge had helped him oust his enemy, the former police chief, ostensibly because of the Sherman Ware case but really because Cheorge realized that Lee would provide him with an opportunity to shimmy his way into law enforcement.

DOE was outraged when DOE learned about the killing of Trayvon Martin, and on March 1, 2012 DOE went to the HOA meeting and said words to the effect of: “I knew something horrible was gonna happen when I called you [to Lee] folks and reported that we had a problem with an armed loose cannon vigilante racist out here who was running around making false allegations against people in the neighborhood and who was plastering the neighborhood with paranoid ravings! I TOLD YOU SO!”

Chief Lee and probably Patty Mahaney then, in the way I’m figuring it happened, “escorted DOE out of the meeting” and I can just imagine the conversation they had with DOE as they did so.

Is DOE a witness? There is so much to be learned. SPD is very squirrely about giving me the information about Chief Lee’s involvement with the HOA. Hmmmmm…

My theory of the case is that Cheorge was deliberately hunting on 2/26/2012 so he could bring somebody in to the SPD to show that he needed to patrol, armed, to keep the community safe. He needed to show DOE that an armed guard was essential.

The problem, as Serino described it, was that “Murphy’s Law” came into play. Trayvon Martin was not a thug.

In fact, the family of Trayvon Martin, had they not been decent, solvent, employed, well-known, Christian folks, would have been intimidated much more than they were, and might have found themselves being arrested on trumped up charges both in Miami Gardens (police here have friends who are police there, you know) and in Sanford, and might have found themselves unable to take up the cause for getting attention to the murder of their son. Only because both parents had nothing to fear from police could they have even objected to the killing of their kid.

I think it is even possible that George, while laying in wait for a “real suspicious guy” to show up in RTL that night, was rehearsing his lines. He wanted the evening to end with him being a hero and proving to DOE and any others who were objecting to his behavior that his plan of becoming the armed, paid, neighborhood watcher for RTL was a good plan after all. God’s plan.

The silence about DOE and the HOA is peculiar from one point of view (why no more newspaper articles about that?) but it is understandable from another point of view. The HOA does not want an OJ-like civil judgment out against them in the future for having created an unsafe environment in which it was easy to kill Trayvon Martin. Remember, even after OJ was acquitted, he faced the music financially because two deaths were attributed to his conduct, by a preponderance of the evidence.

Malisha – Thank you so much. I am hoping DOE was in touch with the FBI after the case was turned over to the State. This is why I was thinking that the incident at that meeting was sorta brushed under the carpet. I thought we would hear more about the individual and, when nothing further was reported and nothing was in evidence, I thought – OKAY – this person will be used for the other investigation. You and I are on the same page. But, without your providing detail, I would still be here scratching my head about many things. One other thing though – I do not believe Zimmerman acted on his own. I think his plans had already been discussed with one or two of his so-called mentors or advisors.

Malisha says: The silence about DOE and the HOA is peculiar from one point of view (why no more newspaper articles about that?) but it is understandable from another point of view. The HOA does not want an OJ-like civil judgment out against them in the future for having created an unsafe environment in which it was easy to kill Trayvon Martin. Remember, even after OJ was acquitted, he faced the music financially because two deaths were attributed to his conduct, by a preponderance of the evidence.
——————————————–

Dear HOA and SPD,
Too bad for you, and too late to be silent now! There WILL be a civil case against the HOA and the hopefully ol’ Billy Bob and SPD too, because, at least in the case of the HOA, the family’s lawyers already said so!! But it’ll be after *ALL* the criminal(s) cases are done. I mean who wouldn’t want the FBI and DOJ to do the investigations for them, and weed out all the corruption and conniving, before bringing the *civil* hammer down on that town!!!

And yes, it’s very interesting that this person is staying quiet.
But they could have some very good reasons, besides not wanting to expose themselves to media scrutiny. It could be that they are dealing with emotional issues themselves. Isn’t this the same person who was the father of the boy GZ accused of stealing his stupid bike? If it is, i can imagine how they must feel that it could of easily been his own child GZ shot down.

GZ and his filthy family just have NO idea the harm they’ve caused for many many people. Consider how *some, not all* of the the ear witnesses are dealing emotionally with the memories of those screams and some even saw Trayvon’s body. And some of them are going to be testifying about that night… Just a lot of pain and destruction GZ caused for so many people in so many ways.

Jun, it’s reported (in the jail tapes) by GZ himself that Jose actually sought him out right about the exact same time GZ retained Omar. GZ bragged that Jose wanted to defend GZ so bad he practically fell over himself trying to contact GZ’s friends and family when he found out the first lawyers were ‘dismissed’!! But Omar said hell NO, that if Jose was in Omar was OUT!
GZ was feeling like a super star at that point, but he was convinced- i’m guessing by at least a slightly intelligent person- within his group, that Biaz was way too hated by the public. And basically it probably wouldn’t be in GZ’s best interest to be represented by another guy voted “most hated”! Makes sense.

Grey Winter Sky, read Yann Martel’s book “ME” — the part about the sweet potatoes.

Thrilled with the book and wanting to send the author (of that and of Life of Pi, etc.) a present, I packed up a tube of emerald green shampoo, a few small porcelain animals (tiger, donkey, monkey, hyena, etc.), and four (4) sweet potatoes and ran down to the post office. I filled in the form to send these items to Canada; it cost about $40 from here — this was right before Christmas in 2010. In about March 2011 I got the box back, unopened, with a customs stamp on it: “CONTRABAND: UNREGISTERED AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS”

He says it was wrong for Trayvon Martin’s family attorneys to insinuate that his brother is a racist murderer. “I think Benjamin Crump and Natalie Jackson laid a foundation for that to happen.

Of course, the first problem with this petition is that it calls for an investigation of what IT claims is a malicious prosecution. Malicious prosecution cannot be done by citizens; it must be done by a prosecutor. Citizens, of course, can do other things that are malicious. Those things, if they cause damages, are “torts,” and other citizens are free to sue them for those torts. So if they really want an “investigation” into the “malicious prosecution” of Cheorge, they need to ask for an investigation into Corey and Scott. That would be just fine; they would also need to investigate whomever Corey got her statements from — meaning, obviously, the SPD and witnesses. Great!

The second thing wrong with the petition is that by definition a “malicious prosecution” is one that resulted in a favorable decision for the defendant of that particular prosecution. So the proper time for this petition will be right after acquittal. And it will necessarily involve the interview of all six jurors in the case to find out how and why they thought there was “no evidence at all against the defendant.”

The third thing wrong with the petition is that it presumes O’Mara is a low-grade unintelligent and probably uneducable person. If there is truly not enough evidence against Cheorge to sustain a criminal charge, he should have brought a motion to dismiss the charge long ago, and saved his client all the torment of this travesty of justice. WHY HAS HE NOT GONE TO COURT, PERHAPS WITH THE HELP OF DERSHOWITZ AND/OR MERRITT, and freed the noble non-racist Cheorge Zsssimmerman from the jaws of the beast? Huh? Huh? ❓

Absolutely spot on Malisha… you´ve ticked all the boxes! Ha, Ha, Ha, of course there can only be a malicious when there has been an acquittal and that is a long way off if ever. Ha Ha Ha, can´t stop laughing at the stupidity of these zidiots.

LOLOOL that’s hilarious!! But don’t worry NO ONE is taking that BS seriously! The white house has real business to attend to and can’t sit a round indulging some freakin deranged racist kid killer and friends. Obama has already spoken his opinion on this subject, and that is that justice will be done!

It is just one more example of the Zs thinking they are above everything. Surely Z Sr. and Z Jr. know this, Malisha. If not, O’Mara must. But they don’t care. It is just their way of attempting to make a message heard, even though they think the message is GZ was wronged rather than they are stupid and are going to knowingly abuse a system and use it for something other than what it is intended to be and all the suckers who sign that petition are fools who are being used because they unknowingly think their voice is being heard rather than laughed at because they don’t have a clue as to what they are doing.

Oh Malisha, thanks once again for the free education of shannon in miami! LOLO This time it was the definition of “tort”, i’ve always wondered what it meant and i guess i’ve forgotten to ask! Great explanation 🙂

I couldn’t make it leave my comment. It says I have to sign in and then it says my e-mail is already there and then blah blah blah. Too much technology for me, sorry.

However, if somebody else wants to put this comment in over there, feel free:

“The petition is very ignorant. To have committed the civil tort of ‘malicious prosecution’ one has to have instituted a criminal proceeding against someone else, knowing that the defendant did not commit the crime alleged. Florida case law gets very specific about how a person commits ‘malicious prosecution’ and here it is: ‘One is regarded as having instituted a criminal proceeding against another if the proceeding resulted directly and in natural and continuous sequence from his actions, so that it reasonably can be said that, but for his actions, the proceeding would not have been instituted.’

For this to be true of the Zimmerman case, it has to be shown that the actions of Crump, Sharpton, Jackson, etc. were the only cause of George having been charged with murder. This would require that Angela Corey would have to go along with the whole program, saying that if those folks hadn’t done whatever it is they did, she would never have filed the charges. See that happening? See that happening? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!! Not even the SPD said that they were absolutely finished with their investigation and would absolutely never charge Cheorge with murder! In fact, their investigation was still open when Corey took over.

But it would really be great to have a federal investigation into the possible deprivation of Cheorge’s civil rights at this point in time. Know why? I want to find out who took away his right to remain silent! The poor fool still has not regained it!

Xena…..I’d like to believe that just knowing that there are people in the world who are seeking justice for Trayvon, brings at least a small measure of comfort to Sybrina, Tracy and the rest of Trayvon’s family and friends.

nemerininys – WOW! Great posts. For anyone in LE to say there was not enough evidence is ridiculous. I am no detective, to be sure. But, I recognized problems with GZs accounting of the tragedy and the visual, at-the-scene, evidence did not jive immediately. When I saw the tape of GZ arriving at the Police Station that night, I saw someone who showed no emotion – no worries – nothing. Your statements bring everything into perspective. Brining in the DOJ and FBI was EXACTLY the right thing to do.

Thanks, grahase. What upsets me most is what I’d only found during a recent search through the discovery documents – the utter lack of clothing DNA and blood stain requests from Serino. When you look at the dates on the FDLE Lab reports, the clothing items generally received on March 20, and the subsequent findings were reported from late March through July (the blood on the Skittles bag).

This, to me, is the most sickening and outrageous scandal of that investigation.

Right you are, Nemerinys. Not a single thing about this case was normal in the SPD, from the get-go. In that squad car on the way into the HQ that night, Smith and Zimmerman were NOT silent. They were planning out the “great escape” of the “great white hope” and they were doing it in such a way as to give reality to Chief Lee and Norm Wolfinger’s decision — which they had asked for probably from the phone in the unit — to let Cheorge walk on this little hunting expedition. When I think of how sorrowful Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton are today I also have to feel a little elation that Cheorge and Shellie are not having exactly the day they planned, either.

Malisha, the fact that Tracy and Sybrina were denied the appropriate and thorough investigation they and their son deserved grieves me terribly. That they not only lost their son in utterly horrible circumstances, but that the very people whose mission it was to stand up for him just didn’t give a damn – well, words fail me to describe the hurt I feel.

Even Jonathan Turley, the constitutional law expert who believes Corey overcharged Zimmerman, and who was in Dershowitz’s and Merritt’s camp far more than he was in ours, immediately admitted that there was probable cause for an arrest on 2/26/2012.

In a 04/02 Orlando Sentinel article by Rene Stutzman and Amy Pavuk, it’s noted that Lee, Serino, and “others” attended an interview session exclusive to the Sentinel – an interview that doesn’t seem to have been publicly released except for a couple of photographs – two weeks earlier, on 16 March, three days after the capias and before la merde a frappé le ventilateur.

To quote from that article:

“[…] Serino said his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman’s account – that he had acted in self-defense.”

“‘The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event,’ Serino told the Sentinel March 16. ‘Everything I have is adding up to what he says.'”

After the capias, Serino added an ROI supplemental, dated 18 March, essentially rewriting the interview he held with W19 on 10 March; she now identifies “the kid” as being the one on the ground, not the previous “an individual,” and he elaborated that she hadn’t seen any arguing or fighting. Another ROI supplemental, dated 19 March, concerned a 02/28 meeting with Tracy Martin for the purpose of discussing the investigation and, apparently, playing the 911 tapes. He added a third ROI supplemental, dated 22 March, pertaining to having received an email and two digital photographs from Officer Michael Wagner on 21 March – which, as others have observed, was nearly a month after the shooting. And, strangely, the day after the DOJ and FDLE began their investigations, Chief Lee and SA Wolfinger “stepped down,” and Angela Corey appointed. Just another coinkydink?

Lastly, I want to note that the only significant physical evidence turned in to the FDLE Lab – all on 1 March – were the gun, holster and related items, Trayvon’s fingernail scrapings, and Zimmerman’s buccal swabs. Only on 20 March – when the FDLE got involved – were DNA, blood, and debris evidence, including ballistics, from both Trayvon’s and Zimmerman’s clothing requested. And while I don’t know when the RATL newsletters and SPD/Neighborhood Watch emails were copied and by whom, I don’t doubt that it was by the FDLE, who did look up and print out Zimmerman’s MySpace site, and search both W13’s iPhone and Zimmerman’s Blackberry.

The Serino investigation – over which a group of “officers and investigators” met daily to discuss for more than two weeks – appears to have never bothered with DNA and blood evidence on the clothing, nor searched Zimmerman’s phone, W13’s iPhone, and for background information. Either this team was extraordinarily incompetent and obtuse, or they conspired to absolve Zimmerman of any crime for his killing Trayvon Martin.

From what I gather, Serino was the one who leaked the police videos, and the autopsy was done right away, at the coroner’s office. The victim’s body was brought straight there. There may be Serino was playing both sides, due to circumstances at SPD out of his control (Bill Lee, Wolfinger). Serino after a while knew what was up, hence him leaking that information.

I know it’s been speculated that Serino leaked the 02/26 department video, but, naturally, it’s not been verified. The autopsy was performed the following morning, about 10-10:30.

I believed as you do, that Serino was walking a fine line between what his superiors wanted and what he felt was right. In fact, I was a fan; when I heard the audio interviews with Zimmerman, I thought, “Yes! He doesn’t believe the creep!” And I ignored things that bothered me, believing that he was simply trying to get Zimmerman to talk as much as possible.

But, two things that genuinely anger me. He remained convinced to the end that it was Zimmerman yelling for help, and he ultimately failed to perform the investigation that Trayvon Martin and his family deserved. He failed to ask for DNA, blood, and ballistics evidence on the clothing – all of which turned out to be quite important. He chose to play politics to protect his career, instead of taking a chance and doing the right thing. If he was punished or fired for doing so, he had the upper hand and could have sued the department.

Here’s a strange little note: According to
this, Serino served for three years as a Uniformed Federal Police Officer for the Pearl Harbor Police Department (DOD).

But, two things that genuinely anger me. He remained convinced to the end that it was Zimmerman yelling for help,

nemerinys, only in hindsight I can blame him. Very early in the discussion, I struggled enormously with the fact that Trayvon’s victimhood seemed on both sides seemed to depend only on the fact who had been screaming. That admittedly irritated me highly.

To be quite honest, it made me mad. I imagined if someone had talked with dispatch about me like George did, had followed and confronted me after with this attitude. i would have been mad as hell, and no way would I have cried at that time. How should Trayvon have known this guy was gonna shoot him? I could even imagine a scenario were GZ was aware he would be able to show some scratches after, waited till he could be sure someone witnessed the fight and then waited for the best chance to shoot the guy: so he couldn’t get away. And indeed cried as proof of his “reasonable fear”.

Mind you, I hadn’t heard his scream reenactment at that point. But my image of George was that of an authoritarian character that both bows easily to authority but also demands submission by whoever he thinks should submit to him, with deep and easy prejudices combined with the missing ability to question his judgments, a manipulator and ultimately a sizzy.

I am not sure, if I really want to blame Serino for that. Fact is, at that early point in time, all seemed to add up it was indeed him due to GZ’s manipulative show and the exhibition of his wounds.

He writes:

This voice was determined to be that of George Zimmerman, who was apparently yelling for help as he was being battered by Trayvon Martin.

“was determined”, why the passive voice? Was Singleton of the same opinion, all the others too? The next sentence that follows indirectly suggests that at least Singleton may have been involved in the review of the 911 calls.

The Sentence that follows leads to the timeline in Serino’s ROI that is one of LLMPapa’s top arguments against Serino’s manipulative tendencies:

D. Singleton, using information obtained from the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office Computer Aided Dispatch (CAD), established the following timeline.

and he ultimately failed to perform the investigation that Trayvon Martin and his family deserved. He failed to ask for DNA, blood, and ballistics evidence on the clothing – all of which turned out to be quite important.

Yes, there were many, many blunders. It feels the transport of Trayvon’s body is delayed since one first needs a finger scan almost as if in support of GZ’s story, while GZ himself can politely ask if he is allowed to go to the bathroom and clean himself up. No real documentation, no blood or drug test no nothing.

The huge problem Serino had, and that is interestingly exactly where the reason for his witness tampering lays, was and is that there seems to be no real good witness against GZ’s tale. The problem is the very short time spam, it took time to notice what was going on. And then GZ ended the story very fast, and that is the real problem. The fact that we hear the scream on 911 at all is the most surprising thing about the whole story. But strictly the call does not tell us how the fight started.

There is the women who couldn’t see well without her lenses, it could well have been the boy chasing his dog, there is Mary who calls in late and already on the phone has to keep asking Selma what she sees, and there is the teacher. In this case from her interview with the State Attorney’s office (2.nd Discovery, page 15-16:

O’Steen asked her if she could tell who the voices were outside of her house. She said no, that her window was not open but the voices were loud which was not unusual. O’Steen asked her if they were arguing. She said that she had just shut the window in her bedroom and it was raining hard. She heard voices and wondered who would be walking their dog in the pouring rain. She got onto her bed with a book. She heard the voices again and opened the window. She said she didn’t remember if it was raining at the time.

O’Steen asked her how long was it from the first time she heard the voices until she opened her window. She said 5-8 minutes, top. She couldn’t understand what was being said but it was not a conversation. She heard a loud man’s voice arguing and could also hear another man’s voice. She said the louder voice was dominent.

In the interview with Serino the 5-8 minutes that passed, are not more than 10, if I remember correctly. Which can only mean, considering the tight time line, that she merges two unconnected events, or is not a good witness. The Defense would pick her apart to the point of making her statements unusable, based on this tiny detail. Besides already on the phone she tells dispatch, she does not want to witness.

Only witness tampering? I don’t know, I am not sure. Not quite helpful witnesses maybe? Strictly she says some good things, like GZ was close to the tree, did he drop “object 1” at that point in time there? The problem is, there are traces in the report that the teacher was on the scene, as ultimately most witnesses apparently. In Stacie McCoy’s interview by SAO we find this:

She took no statements however she attempted to comfort an older woman who was a witness and was “freaking out.

The fight started because GZ got out of his vehicle. O’Mara realized this and abandoned a SYG defense for traditional self-defense. GZ alleges that he “felt” Trayvon saw his gun and was going for it. Well, now O’Mara has to deal with the guilty verdict in Dooley’s case because that story didn’t work for Dooley.

Yes, I originally thought that as well. But, it doesn’t look like that was the case.
Here (pdf) is a link to the FDLE evidence documents, and it seems to me that information requested on March 20, for example, was processed rather quickly (eg a response on March 26).

He added a third ROI supplemental, dated 22 March, pertaining to having received an email and two digital photographs from Officer Michael Wagner on 21 March – which, as others have observed, was nearly a month after the shooting.

That’s almost as peculiar as the photograph #W13 took that suddenly mysteriously surface during the FBI interview. And I suppose a couple of weeks later one is also sold to a TV station, at exactly the right time for the arrest of Zimmerman. Or leaked out of SPD? I am sure not by black officers.

Did this photo too only surface in the FBI/FDLR interviews? If so, why would Wagner withhold it from Serino? He must have known he was the Major Crime Investigator in charge.

Was it simply not needed?

Another ROI supplemental, dated 19 March, concerned a 02/28 meeting with Tracy Martin for the purpose of discussing the investigation and, apparently, playing the 911 tapes.

This is an interesting story. Since Serino leaves Tracy Martin’s answer to his question out in his capias ROI. Was it mentioned in the media before that date?

That is on 3/19/2012 he only opens a new ROI to preserve this statement and adds a photo of Tracy Martin and I suppose Brandy Green caught on cam 56, corridor on 2/28/2012 at 10:32, that in the first discovery on page 62.

If you now go back the the report by (CST, I suppose, since he reports to O’Connor on the way to the crime scene, and seemingly belongs to his staff) Leon Ciesla, the passage below is on page 20, last passage:

3/19/12

On 2/28/2012 at approximately 1040 hrs I was walking through the Major Crimes office area and I observed Investigator Serino at his desk playing 911 recordings for Trayvon Martin’s father and a female. I decided to stop and stay in the area once I realized that the 911 recordings for Trayvon Martin’s father and a female. I decided to stop and stay in the area once I realized that the 911 recordings were being played in case I could render any assistance to the family or Investigator Serino. I was standing by the walkway and a post was separating me from directly seeing Mr. Martin’s reactions. Before the 911 call of a person yelling in the background was played, Investigator Serino proceeded to play the recording. I did hear Investigator Serino ask Mr. Martin if that was his son yelling in the background. I did not hear his reply. Mr. Martin was talking very softly when I did hear him. I do not know what order the tapes were played in as I was not directing involved with talking to Mr. Martin.

Interestingly Serino uses a special way to put the scream in his capias report:

I reviewed the 911 calls, specifically 20120571669, placed by … in the background I could clearly hear a male’s voice yelling either “Help” or “Help Me”, fourteen times in an approximately 38 seconds time spam. This voice was determined to be that of George Zimmerman, who was apparently yelling for help as he was being battered by Trayvon Martin.

It was determined? By whom exactly. If one reread the whole reports, by almost everyone of SPD on the scene almost automatically.

Did no one at SPD really think during all these meetings, one could do a voice reenactment?

It still feels a bit they all were someone tricked by GZ and his politely surrendering manners, everybody thought it must have been him, since he offered such a good story.

My mistake, it’s not page 20, but page 19, Leon Ciesla’s report report starts at page 18, and the passage is on page 19 last passage bottom. How does information from 3/19/12 get into a report from 16 days before. Odd, isn’t it?

Yes, there’s quite a bit of modifying reports or, as in the case Officer Michael Wagner, of not preparing a report until long after the incident.

No document has yet been released that shows that Serino was aware of either Wagner’s or W13’s photographs – or even that he saw W13 at the scene of the crime (Santiago did).

It’s interesting that Wagner appears to not have informed Serino of those photos until March 21; Serino wrote his ROI supplemental the following day, and Wagner waited until March 24 to prepare his own report.

No one was in any hurry, that’s for damned sure.

I also find it interesting that Serino, in the ROI supplemental, makes sure he mentions that Sgt. Ciesla was present, yet Ciesla himself makes it clear that it was just happenstance that he was in the area, that he was not in the room, and that he hadn’t heard Tracy Martin’s reply. By leaving his comment open, Serino implies that Ciesla could back up his assertion that Martin hadn’t recognized his son’s voice.

Ok, wait, are you saying that the gun and stuff sat at SPD until the 1st of march? Yet Serino mentions it was sent out in his report, but he never, ever, even bothered to go back and look at the results? And all GZ’s clothing, Trayvon’s clothes and the nail clippings and DNA stuff sat somewhere until the 20th of march?? UFB=un f**king believable!

And the 2 phone photos taken by the sick, idiot witness whom had that riveting conversation about the type of ammo GZ used, says he absolutely forgot he had those pics on his phone until the Feds came a callin’. But then he says he may have deleted them from the phone but knew he copied them to his computer. Who in the world FORGETS they have a photo of a DEAD boy that HE personally took, of a HOMICIDE that happened in his own back yard, and that SAME crime made INTERNATIONAL NEWS??
Something is seriously wrong with this person. He’s got personal issues no doubt, but he also needs to be looked at very closely by LE in case he has withheld anymore information having to do with what he observed that night.

shannon, I didn’t like “John” (#6) from the moment I saw one of the few TV reports, where, if I remember we see him from his back opening his front door. He is the number one witnesses of defense of course. How much did he get for selling the image to media? I think that was him. If so, he waited for the right moment where the price would go up.

The huge problem with all the good defense witnesses, and obviously John their star, since other witnesses confirm his tale, is that like anybody else he saw GZ surrender himself and not try to flee. None of them knew that was something he could not have done under any circumstances, since he would have been suspect number one. Remember, I don’t want to give it all out, they knew were they would find him.

The problem with John is that other people support his tale, like the lady with the dog, or witness #19. His neighbor three doors down. I just listened again to Serino’s reenactment with her to get a precise timing. There is one huge problem I have with Serino in this context. He talks too much and does not keep the lady from babbling animately. He seems to be able to charm the ladies. Why not tell her, look this is a serious matter, we can have a little chat after. He has that quite frequently off the record anyway.

Notice it takes him 7 minutes to stop, what exactly, one and a half minute? I hope that someone does that again slightly better, although I somehow doubt. Notice she now says or she said on April 4, 2012 in the SAO investigation files, second discovery, p. 21,

„She heard groaning in response but does not know what was said“ to witness 6 „John“.

Remember, GZ claims he said: help me restrict this guy, or something similar, I already called. To not go into the MMA style of fight he supposedly witnessed.

“He seems to be able to charm the ladies. Why not tell her, look this is a serious matter, we can have a little chat after.”

Preferably, he shouldn’t tell them stuff afterwards either, since they could get it mixed up with what they remember of the incident itself and incorporate some of it into later interviews or testimony.

gblock, I think ultimately talking of records belongs to the stuff that caused him trouble. I am not convinced of the Matt Gutman rumor yet. It’s pretty peculiar anyway for a journalist to give out his source so freely.

Malisha, we do not know Michael Wagner took part in the meetings. I somehow doubt. We do not have a list of the people that attended, do we? As you say that would make the story even more curious then it already is. I am still in the process of trying to place all the people trampling the scene on that night. Not all of them seem to have written reports or we were given only a selection of reports. I don’t know either what the usual routine would be. Obviously the “on duty supervisor” on the scene Stacy McCoy, during the time up till major crime takes over, takes care that T. Smith writes his report before he has two days off. When he returns, he writes another report on 3/1/2012 – 22:36, which is mainly about GZ’s health status that he observed. If he was ordered to do so at that point in time, the order must have come from major crimes, who were in charge now. Was Smith himself at one point invited into the meetings and the report mirrors what he said there?

Serino seems to like to talk, it may even be his trump card in interrogations, trying to make people feal more comfortable and thus make a mistake.

The guy that takes the lie detector test, or whatever it was, at one point asks GZ if Serino invited him to smoke a cigarette with him, or have a coffee, I don’t remember, in this context he warns George to take care of him. That, I remember well. And I haven’t watched that video often.

So for days and days there are meetings and everyone’s talking about everything and still the officer who took the pictures doesn’t remember to say, “Oh by the way I have some photographs taken right after the shooting”? Expect me to believe THAT?

I apologize in advance for taking up so much space; my comment is extremely long, and that’s even after I split it into three separate comments.

As I mentioned in a previous thread, Chief Bill Lee, Captain Robert O’Connor, and PIO Dave Morgenstern appeared together at the crime scene at 8:40. Sanford is not that small a city for this to be standard procedure, especially the appearance of the PIO.

Serino’s “investigation” seems to have wrapped up after he interviewed his last witness (W19) on Saturday 10 March.

In his deposition for the defense, Sgt. Joseph Santiago stated that a team of “investigating officers and supervisors” met daily to discuss “the progress of the investigation and to task certain officers to follow-up on certain aspects of the investigation and to discuss the sufficiency of the evidence to support charging Zimmerman.” Assistant SA Jim Carter was present at these meetings. The consensus was that there was insufficient evidence to charge Zimmerman with a crime; that Serino submitted the capias the day after the final meeting; that ASA Carter was “very upset;” and that Santiago’s Captain was “similarly frustrated” about the capias.

First, a minor question: Why this team of officers and daily meetings? After all, no culprit or weapon to find.

So, according to Santiago, the final SPD meeting was Monday 12 March, and Chief Bill Lee was presumably present. People were surprised and upset when Serino submitted the capias the next day.

And yet… Chief Lee announced on that very Monday that the police investigation would wrap up that day and be turned over to the SAO on Tuesday – the day of Serino’s capias. So, how is it possible for Santiago and the others to be “surprised?”

In that same announcement, Chief Lee also made it clear that the evidence to date didn’t contradict Zimmerman’s self-defense claim. And, reading between the lines, he didn’t expect SA Wolfinger to arrive at a different conclusion.

Did Serino really throw a spanner in the works, or did the capias serve only as a means to pass the whole thing off to Wolfinger? On the day it received the capias, the SAO stated that it would thoroughly review the investigation, but didn’t know how long it would take. Well, it took only a week; Wolfinger announced on the 20th that he would present the case to the grand jury. Of course, only the night before, both the FDLE and the DOJ announced they were initiating their own investigations.

Supersleuth Serino first arrived on scene at 8:10 pm. Forty five minutes later he began his interview with Witness 18 at 8:55 pm.

An hour and one half after the gunshot that silenced those screams was fired…..without ever speaking to Zimmerman, who was hauled away 30 minutes earlier…..without hearing, first hand, a recording of the screams on Witness 11’s 911 call…..after a mere 45 minutes of investigation, this lead detective for the Sanford Police Department told an educator of children:

I know in previous comments that it was suggested that Serino had spoken (via phone, I suppose) with Officer Timothy Smith, who may have informed Serino of Zimmerman’s injuries and his overhearing Zimmerman mention he had shouted for help.

We could have a blog post just on the actions of and contradictions regarding Smith; I’ve come across a bit more information from discovery that altogether point to Officer Tim being a very, very busy boy that night.

What’s strange is that Serino spoke with, sequentially, JohnW6 and JoeW13 before ending with W18. And yet, in his ROI, he explicitly writes that he spoke with JohnW6 last at 21:05. Since he’s otherwise correct with the times he spoke with the other two witnesses, it’s hard for me to believe that this was a simple mistake. After all, it’s on the audio.

LLMPapa, I might as well mention this here; I don’t know if anyone else caught it. I don’t see how you could use the info in a video, but what the heck.

Re-reading the discovery documents, I read again the SAO’s interview with Ricardo Ayala. I believe he is the only one who noticed the photo button Trayvon wore. On page 2 of Second Discovery:

[…] Martin was flipped over and Ayala saw a gunshot wound on his torso under a photo button that Martin was wearing.

Under the photo button. There’s no mention anywhere of any damage to the photo button (and, strangely, Zimmerman never mentions it again except on the NEN call).

This is further proof that Trayvon’s hoodie and shirt were pulled down, not simply blousing with Trayvon leaning forward. When released, the part of the hoodie where the button was located returned so that it covered the gunshot wound.

Such a little thing, that button, but IMO will prove to be a significant element in proving Zimmerman had physical control of Trayvon at the time he chose to shoot him.

I never really understood Sgt. Joseph Santiago function, meaning his special task and involvement on the crime scene on 2/26/2012. He is the one that sends an officer to run car tags on the streets close to the crime scene towards both sides, he does not tell us who he sends. It can’t be Smith and Johnson they are ordered by “on duty” supervisor Stacy McCoy to take GZ to SPD, maybe Mead. …

Do you understand his function on the crime scene on the night? I never did.

Santiago arrives there on 8:20, somehow that suggests he must be someone that had to be especially informed to come there, he arrives only 20 minutes before the trio Lee/O’Connor/Morgenstern. But apart from the fact that has the authority to order others to do things, there are no hints to understand the basis of it in his reports.

Serino writes in the investigation reports, which I suppose he adds to his capias:

On 02/26/20123 at approximately 23:45 hours I spoke with Assistant State Attorney Kelly Jo Hines and apprised her of the circumstances surrounding the case.

If Wolfinger had already been present, why then inform Hines and tell her something about which Wolfinger had already been briefed on scene?

**************************************

This is the most interesting passage of the larger context of the “prophylactic sequestration motion”: (with the possible exception of Sgt. Randy Smith).

Now that really makes we wonder. Strictly I think it was Randy Smith that gave Zimmerman a clue at Taaffe’s house helping him out of a slight insecurity. I had already decided to put him into the box of the bad guys. But maybe that is really connected to his special expertise: CST. If there are no direct witnesses for the start of the fight, Serino’s ultimate problem, then his expertise may be demanded.

I was about to respond in agreement with you about the annoying mystery of Santiago’s participation in the investigation, and I was especially baffled why Serino’s immediate superior, Sgt. Randy Smith, was nowhere around. Indeed, the only place that indicates Smith’s existence is his signature on the capias (and, I think, on the ROI supplementals).

The Sanford Police Department assigns homicide cases to its five investigators who handle major crimes. Their wide-ranging responsibilities cover everything from sex crimes to carjackings. On the evening that Martin was fatally shot, the head of the major crimes unit was on vacation. The rotation supervisor on call was a sergeant who works narcotics cases. In all, more than a dozen officers and department superiors were on the scene of Martin’s killing — which the police said was Sanford’s first homicide of 2012 — including Lee, who joined the department last May.

This explains Smith’s absence and Santiago’s involvement. Obviously, Smith’s vacation must have ended that weekend since he participated in the video reenactment the following afternoon. Funny how I’ve yet to come across a report prepared by Smith about his role in this reenactment, as well as his oversight of Serino’s investigation.

As for that reenactment… Isn’t it strange that Zimmerman got into the car driven by Smith, although the videographer was in the second car driven by Serino? And, again, there’s no report that narrates the conversation that would have had to take place between Smith and Zimmerman before CST Ripley changed cars.

Sorry, I forgot to add that I don’t know if Wolfinger showed up at the crime scene, if he appeared at he police station, or if he even spoke to anyone there on the phone. The only source for his appearance that night was the Grio, and it’s never been verified. Of course, since Serino didn’t leave the station until very late (I think about 3am), and had spoken to Hines about 11:30, there was plenty of time for he and Wolfinger to link up – that is, if Hines (or Lee) felt it necessary to bother him that late on a Sunday evening.

thanks, nemerinys, that explains matters, so he is the “rotation supervisor on call” substituting for Randy Smith who is on holidays.

Which makes the allusion to Randy Smith in brackets in O’Mara’s “prophylactic sequestration” even more odd. The only thing he handles after that night is Martin’s cell phone and, yes, he finds some neighbors of GZ that have nothing bad to report about him. 😉

Why does O’Mara think the “rotation supervisor on call” for that single should have the most to say about the case? And not the head of major crime who is back to work the next day?

As for that reenactment… Isn’t it strange that Zimmerman got into the car driven by Smith, although the videographer was in the second car driven by Serino?

Serino is in front, I don’t think the video inside Randy Smith car can be taken from the car in front. At least, it feels, without going back to it.

My impression was that Singleton is in the back of the car taking the video, or someone next to her whoise voiced we don’t hear, and Serino is in the car in front that stops too at Taaffe’s house.

For whatever reason Singleton starts with Zimmerman’s narrative, probably as an introduction for Randy Smith. But I don’t think that is a good idea. My basic impression without analyzing, perspective and angle, it must be Singleton too, who does the video if there is nobody else in the backseat. Strictly her voice could come over a speaker from the car in front, but it does not sound like that to me.Check for yourself. Here is a copy. I can’t find the correct link swiftly in the axioamnesia collection.

And, again, there’s no report that narrates the conversation that would have had to take place between Smith and Zimmerman before CST Ripley changed cars.

I can’t place Ripley at the moment. If he is mentioned in the discovery, I can’t place him. Besides since I am not sure who he is, I am not sure what cars he changed?

We will never get the narrative of every little chat in the SPD corridors either. But chief Lee, or in this case Corey at least let us into message chats from mobile car to car transmission. See Second discovery page 176 on. Pretty odd selection and odd or chaotic chronological arrangement, but there you go. You can’t blame them for not entertaining us.

McCoy sends this message to destination “S”:

Please go in and update those reports, we discussed in briefing today reference the ATW … and finish up whatever reports you have left …. please. Thanks“at 2/27/2012 03:48:11

p. 181

Timothy Smith, who as you can read will have two days off and plans to get drunk answers again to destination “S”.

I AM DONE IN THE S35 REPORT FOR WHO EVER NEEDS TO ADD A NARRATIVE at: 02/27/2012 04:10:41

p. 182

Now if you go to the first discovery, page 14, you see that both Ayala’s and Smith reports are modified by Stacy McCoy on 02/27/2012 on 05:08.

But strictly, I have come to the conclusion, the very fact that these minor details are included, should tell us they are unimportant and simply business as usual.

After I tried to get a better grasp at what is included and why and where, I can understand Team Zimmerman, it constantly feels as if something essential is missing. And the structure in which the data is given sometimes feels arranged to be deliberately confusing.

that ASA Carter was “very upset;” and that Santiago’s Captain was “similarly frustrated” about the capias.

What does ASA mean and who is Carter? Who exactly is Santiago’s captain?

Ok, Santiago, is described as duty sergeant narcotics. So he could be the one that initially puzzled some. Why order a narcotics officer to the crime scene, at that point in time when apparently no drugs are involved?

We are not told who did, neither does he tell us. He is the one that later takes care of the phone, and only finds positive infos on GZ among neighbors.

Sounds to me like they called a drug/narcotics officer to the scene, to bolster GZ’s story about it appeared TM was on drugs. I guess they forgot to tell him he was supposed to plant something? Or perhaps he should have known, but got there too late to do so? Not a good thing to try with so many people already crawling all over the scene.

@Leander, ASA= Assistant State Attorney. The one Sarino says he called when he was at the scene to ‘apprise’ – to let her know what was going on. Wolfslinger was the *State Attorney* at the time and apparently made himself personally available at the scene. Unbelievable really…

Hey, who cares if police officers are “upset” or “frustrated”? Is that evidence of anything other than perhaps their own mental or emotional disturbance? I mean, WTF do I care if they were upset when Cheorge was charged? O’Mara’s not only barking up the wrong tree, he’s barking up a damn umbrella with leaves painted on it.

I have thought about that all day as well, Tracy, Sybrina, Jahvaris and his other family members are facing this Thanksgiving without their beloved Trayvon. this is a sad time of the year for me to but, my thoughts are with them at this time as well.

GZ and Shellie are very primitive, emotionally. They do not feel for others; they feel for themselves. They are doing a “poor me” Thanksgiving is my guess, reinforcing their own foolish belief that they are being horribly victimized by a great left-wing conspiracy to enforce the criminal laws of Florida against someone who emphasized to us over and over that he was “the good guy.” The big question is: Who’s the turkey?

Apparently they don’t care to understand what’s going on here. If they did, they’d have a look at the law, to see if and when it would be all right to follow someone for crime fighting purposes. Clearly this was not one of those times. Since no crime had been witnessed, it could only be imagined or guessed, that the person to be followed, might commit a crime. Since, a view like that would mean that anyone could be followed, by anyone, then justified by mere imagination, no one in society would have any right to privacy.

To prevent this the law requires “probable cause”! GZ could have been justified, only if he had actually witnessed TM committing some crime, or had a victim chasing, yelling “stop that man”. Anything else means that GZ has simply decided, for reasons of his own, to act in a hostile and fear inducing manner, towards a stranger he selected/singled out for this purpose.

Essentially he walked or drove down the street and selected a person at random and said “that person there is a criminal”, without any evidence to back up his claim. He then decided to act upon his conjecture and ignore the fact that he was causing his target to fear for his own safety. That is an assault at law, it’s called “stalking” and it is a criminal offense. One does not become a hero by committing criminal offenses. GZ had the means to correct the dangerous impressions he had created, he needed to quickly identify himself as a non-hostile actor. That he did not, and instead escalated by uttering verbiage that reflected his psychologically hostile state of mind, he gives us reason to believe that he intended for harm to be fall his target. First by instigating a police investigation of him, and before that could happen, he stalked him.

That stalking did not cause TM to fight, instead, the evidence shows it caused him to attempt to flee. GZ then chased down and detained his target, without even the sheerest bit of evidence his target was deserving of any inspection at all. Then he questioned and killed him.

Subsequent investigation of the materials of that nights affairs, reveal that the stories of how the events unfolded, were false! They could not have occurred that way, because things could not have happened in the locations where GZ said they had happened. Nor, does the evidence support, any claim that TM was acting aggressively when the fatal shot was fired. Both of GZ’s hands were free to be moved without resistance at that time. Where he had one hand holding TM’s garments, making withdrawal impossible, while with his other hand he took careful aim and fired.

People are asking why GZ fired his weapon, when he clearly had secured control of it, and the evidence shows he clearly had control of the child. Well, we can only guess about that. We can imagine that there were others working in consort with GZ, because his claimed trip to the store is false, as shown by analysis of the cctv’s. He was never able to see anyone wandering about, before he had a chance to exit through the front gate and be on his way to the store without event. Instead his car, or a car that should be his, passes up the opportunity to exit via the front gate and courses over to TTL for a view into the mailbox shed, a place where he could not know anyone would be, on a rainy Sunday night, without first having been notified that someone would be there.

Since GZ’s narrative is untrue, it is entirely possible that TM actually saw the other players involved, but did not know or understand what he was seeing. But, that information would have been revealed if his testimony had been collected and inspected.
The killing precluded that possibility, so anyone who consorted with GZ to help bring about the eventual results, remains hidden from view. All we do know for a fact is that GZ did work with a group of other people, whom he kept secret. He did not create a listing or records of how the NW operated and/or who was a member. He kept no records of who populated the NW “tree” of notification, that the training materials therefore, suggested be created.

GZ does, however, keep a careful eye on which cctv’s are operable from which are down, and he has carried in his memory, the name, title and business name of the entity that manages the camera, as well as has the phone number of that person stored on his phone. My guess is, therefore, that he also knows that his car can be seen on these cctv’s as it moved around RATL, yet he does not offer or suggest they be looked at, to confirm that he first saw TM at the FT cut through. Instead, as each narrative he give is challenged, he “forgets” that he gave that one and creates a new one. All the while he is encouraged by being allowed to remain free without charge.

“I suspect that O’Mara is counting on the fact that Corey and Bernie will not air the SPD’s and Wolfinger’s dirty laundry by exposing the true corruption that went down regarding Trayvon’s murder. Does Corey and Bernie have the balls to call O’Mara’s bluff and clear the air by exposing the real truth that night?”

This is another reason that O’Mara’s nonsense is not getting into the trial. Not even COREY wants the SPD to be on trial in June 2013; she wants Zimmerman ALONE on trial and not the officers who were involved after the fact.

Procedure
1. Preheat oven to 350 degrees.
2. Combine all the dry ingredients in a large bowl.
3. On the first speed of a hand or standing mixer, beat together the eggs, oil, pumpkin puree, and milk.
4. Fold the wet ingredients into the dry in three batches with a rubber spatula. The batter will be smooth, and is more fluffy than liquidy.
5. Pour the batter into a 9 by 13 baking pan (or two loaf pans), and place in the middle rack of the oven.
6. Bake for 25 minutes, or until a cake tester or toothpick stuck in the middle of the cornbread comes out dry.
7. Let the cornbread cool for ten minutes, and then cut into pieces and serve.
——————
THOMASIN’S ROASTED BUTTERNUT SQUASH

Preparation
1. Preheat the oven to 375 degrees.
2. Grease a cookie sheet, and scatter the squash chunks on it.
3. Evenly spread out the chunks of butter among the squash, and sprinkle the cinnamon and brown sugar evenly on the squash.
4. Roast in the oven for about 40 minutes, or until the squash is tender. You can poke the squash with a cake tester, a fork, or a small knife to test.

Preparation
1. Bring the butternut squash chunks to boil in a saucepan.
2. Turn the heat down to medium, and let cook until the squash is tender, approximately ten to fifteen minutes.
3. Drain the squash, and mash with a masher or a hand mixer.
4. Add the butter and salt and pepper to taste.

AL’S WILD RICE STUFFING

It’s great alone, but Thomasin loves mixing it up with peas, mashed potatoes, and gravy.

Preparation
1. In a colander, rinse the wild rice.
2. Put the rice in a pot, and cover with 3 inches of water. Boil in a pot, uncovered, for about 20 to 25 minutes. If you’re using Mahnomen wild rice, it will cook more quickly than the paddy variety.
3. While the rice is boiling, slice (do not mince) the mushrooms, onions, garlic, and celery.
4. Melt the butter in a skillet, and sauté the onions, garlic, and celery until they begin to bleed a little liquid into the butter. Then add the mushrooms. The celery and onions should not be totally soft.
5. Once the rice has cooked, drain it and add to the sautéed vegetables.
6. Add salt to taste, and stuff into the turkey before roasting. The rest can be eaten as a side dish at dinner.

Have a Blessed Thanksgiving everyone. All this talk about food and I am here with my grilled cheese sandwich. Our Thanksgiving was a month ago and the next feast isn’t until Christmas. Take care everyone. mmm….sweet potato pie…

Happy Thanksgiving to you Xena, and to my fellow posters.
Xena, I am almost finished cooking, all I i have left is the Turkey, Mac & Cheese. The rice and beans I make the same day. I wish you could smell those sweet potatoe pies!!!!

I’m glad to have caught the last notifications before closing my computer — because — because — the sweet potato pie is the first I’m baking. 🙂 To please others coming for dinner, I also am making candied sweet potatoes. I plan on getting the baked mac and cheese and homemade dressing finished tonight alone with green beans and ham hocks. The turkey will be the only thing left for tomorrow and that will get in the oven around 8 a.m. and while it’s in the oven, I’ll prepare deviled eggs.

Brown….”Maybe when this case is over we can all agree on one place to meet for pie and coffee.”
That really would be nice! I know that this may sound weird but, I’ve come to feel that all of you are like family. We gather together (at different hours…lol) to discuss (or read) the latest news about this case, or other topics too. We express our frustrations, humor, and sadness regarding this case. And there is always respect for each other. I have learned quite a bit too just reading different topics on this site. 🙂

Xena, if you do get back on, check out the nut house. James F. took one of your comments from here and reposted it over there and added some BS to it. He didn’t use your name, but like I said, he added to it. Happy Thanksgiving!

Ahhh. Thanks Chris. You see, James F claims that the Koch brothers are paying GZ’s legal fees. James F doesn’t know that “legal defense” does not include “living expenses” and that MOM has set aside an allowance for GZ’s “living expenses.”

I suppose, in a funny sort of way, that James F. thinks that GZ taking a dump is illegal so toilet paper in part of his legal defense.

“I believe he should have been fired for tampering with witnesses during the first night of the investigation by “correcting” witnesses who had identified Trayvon Martin as the person who uttered the terrified shriek. He informed them that the investigation had established that George Zimmerman uttered it.”

Professor, I’m not sure “firing” would be adequate.

Serino first arrived on the scene at 8:10 pm, at least 30 minutes after Zimmerman had been hauled away. He told Witness 18 it was Zimmerman doing the yelling when he took her statement, just 45 minutes later, at 8:55 pm.

He didn’t speak to Zimmerman until he interviewed him four hours later at 12:07 am, and couldn’t possibly have heard Witness 11’s 911 call to hear the screams for himself at the time he made this claim.

An hour and a half after the gunshot that silenced those screams, without ever actually hearing the screams for himself, and without having spoken a word to Zimmerman at the time, this LEAD INVESTIGATOR told a witness she was incorrect in her belief the victim was doing the screaming!

Exactly what type of investigative technique did he employ to come up with that statement to this witness, FORTY FIVE MINUTES after first arriving at the crime scene?

On March 13 when he filed his Capias Request, he STILL claimed it was Zimmerman “frantically” calling for help in the background of Witness 11’s 911 call:

I think Cheorge felt betrayed that he was arrested. He had, I believe, been assured by several corrupt individuals within the Florida law enforcement hierarchy that he would NOT be arrested. Then he didn’t know how to react. He had to fall back on his old tried-and-true methods: lie, cheat and steal.

Speaking of Junior being an idiot, so far the petition Junior endorsed has 130 signatures. Must be more than a bit embarrassing for Junior who is so full of himself – especially if he reads the “joke” names some have signed the petition with. Love it.

Junior is an idiot and a narcissist who is hoping to make it into show biz with his “pretty” face and BS ability. What he doesn’t seem to be able to wrap his brain around is the only way Junior has been invited to be interviewed is because his brother killed a black teen. Interestingly RZ Jurior only consents to interviews with people who will spin a good light on GZ’s murder of Trayvon.

Lynn…..They only have until the 17th of Dec. to get the other 24,921 signatures. Earlier this evening, they had 70….now they have 79. The petition started the 17th of Nov. so that averages 15.8 signatures a day. With 26 days left to go, they will need 958.5 signatures a day. The petition is as looney as GZ.

I’ll say it again: David Percy launched that petition. If the media connects Junior’s promotion of a petition to that very vile person and his antics, this case will take a horrible turn south for the defense. Junior really needs to research GZ’s die-hard supporters. All I can say is, “Oh my!”

Have you read David Piercy’s other petitions? Bwahhhahahahah
He had one to have Corey investigated. I believe it was for “ethics violations”. No other information of any kind. I believe they received, maybe, 19 signatures before the petition was closed.

Above a comment on someone who picks up on the topic or more precisely someone else who suggests he knows: “David P. Reedly”. Unfortunately beyond seemingly having registered a patent, Reedly seems quite anonymous, Google-wise. Similarly anonymous as “The Conservative Tree House” if you ask your favorite Whois IT domain about them. …

Or as an afterthought why would these seemingly equally anonymouse “akas” support the petition?