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Theist claims he doesn't need "proof" to "know" or "believe" in god.

Posted on: October 27, 2006 - 6:40pm

peppermint

Posts: 539

Joined: 2006-08-14

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Theist claims he doesn't need "proof" to "know" or "believe" in god.

My Jewish friend and I were debating online. He frequently told me I was driving him crazy and a vicious debater. I guess this translates to...I'm making a point. I simply use logic, evidence and tear apart each argument he attempts.

We've put our debate on hold for now concerning how he knows that a god exists. However, there is one major problem I am having in debating him. He claims that he does not need evidence to believe in a god.

I told him belief and knowledge require an extent of evidence, since knowledge is based on evidence. (I guess he might view evidence as a negative thing, since his religion apparently teaches you to question everything but "take a leap of faith", therefore immediatly shunning my logic.)

How can I explain to my friend that he cannot know or believe something without evidence? I tried the Magical Unicorn theory, and I'll probably bring it up again, but basically...how do I conquer this:

"I do not need proof of a god to know he exists."

He contradicts himself in saying that proof is in how the world works, among other crazy arguments. Thanks guys.

*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*

"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby

Actually he right. If he needed proof (real valid scientific proof) he wouldn't be a believer now as none exists. He came to his belief due to his emotional need to believe. After arriving at this state of mental disease, he seeks flimsy arguments to support his belief as he really know deep down how stupid this fairy tale is. Once he finds these flimsy proofs he begins to build a fantsy world that becomes difficult for even him to correct. It takes lots of time and logic to deconstruct Neverland.

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca

Why does he believe in god? Because he believes he has evidence. His evidence may include many things:

* His parents believe it, and he trusts them (insert rabbi, friends, whatever...)
* He believes the arguments of creationism
* He believes god has spoken to him/performed a miracle for him/saved him from something, etc...
* He believes that the scriptures are correct.

Whatever. The point is, that every single argument he gives you is based on evidence.

Where you can turn this to your advantage is in getting him to admit this. If you ask him, "Why do you believe X?" and he answers, then his answer is his evidence. It's as simple as the definition of the word.

Once he admits that he believes in god based on evidence, all you have to do is come up with an irrational belief based on faulty evidence. Ask him if he also believes that. When he says no, ask why. He'll be forced to admit that the belief isn't based on good evidence, so he rejects it.

From there, ask him why he would base a religious belief on bad evidence if he won't accept other beliefs that way.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin