Negotiations and Finding Your Core Values

Last week, I contemplated how rules, boundaries and negotiations work in polyamorous relationships, and pondered how we find common ground and figure out how to better understand each other while still honoring our own needs and desires at the same time. Once again, this can be challenging in a monogamous relationship, but tends to get even more complicated in multiple, loving relationships where more hearts and minds are involved, all with their own unique thoughts and feelings.

As I contemplated this, it spurred many insightful and thought provoking conversations in cyber space as well as with some of my close polyamorous friends. My girlfriend’s new-ish lover had this to say, and is allowing me to publish it here versus keeping it a private conversation. I think there’s some awesome stuff here:

The authors [of the linked article] appear to suggest that there should be no rules ever, because rules are inherently one sided, or because rules never actually serve the purpose for which they are created, or because nothing is sure, so trying to protect what you have is pointless, or because if someone needs a rule to feel safe, then they need to just learn to deal.

But I think that it is more nuanced than that. I think if we stop talking about rules, and talk about respecting everyone’s needs and level of personal capacity for acceptance at this moment in time, then you wind up with a form of behavior that is very like following rules, but is based on compassion, respect, and understanding rather than limitations. And sometimes, once we understand it this way, it’s just simpler to call those rules, even if there is no longer a need to formalize “rules” anymore.

And of course, the dictate that there are no rules, is a rule of itself, so there is that logical problem.

Unless you start out to do poly from the beginning, most people are in some stage of learning to do poly, which carries a whole different set of norms than the ones that you probably assumed most of your life, and different from most of the norms you may have entered a relationship with before attempting to open it.

Changing from one deeply held set of norms and expectations to another while engaged with multiple people, each with their own minds, is a bit like stepping out on a high wire in gusting and shifting winds.

The rules (AKA the things that a partner might need in order not to freak out catastrophically), then, are like a balance pole to the high wire artist, they give you something with a bit of inertia to steady against as the winds blow and the wire shakes. The longer you do it, the shorter a balance pole you need. Most people writing in the forums describe starting with very rigid rules that fall away over time to nothing more than respecting your partner’s feelings.

Really great insights there. As I pondered my own unique situation, I came to the conclusion that first, if something is really bothering you, or things feel out of balance with one of your partners, try to determine if you are making poor negative assumptions that may or may not to be true that are causing you to suffer. OR is there an imbalance that needs to be aired, and you’d better air it soon before it festers or resentment builds. Grow some balls, have the courage to speak up, and get it out on the table and look at it. For me, there were three things bothering me when I really got it down to nuts and bolts of what I needed to air:

1) Though there are some that prefer to have more of a Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy and don’t want to hear the whole truth (and a part of me wants to respect someone else’s wishes), for me personally, I am not cool with my partner’s lover not knowing the full details, full disclosure. It just does not sit well with me. And I realized that I had to create a boundary about this concern, or it would eat away at me. Call it a rule, call it an agreement, I don’t care. That’s my deal. It helps me feel safe, and like everything is honest, open and ethical. And it respects my wishes, thus I feel respected and heard. Ironically, BEFORE I had voiced this new boundary, my beau had already decided to tell his Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell partner the entire dealio, and let the chips fall where they may. Guess we were on the same page afterall. That rocks!

2) Speaking of safety, as I further gave this thought and rolled it around in the old noodle, I realized that my beau and I have alot of the same core values: adventure, being together, joy… one where we slightly differ is he might value freedom a bit more than me (but I sure value freedom too, so I totally get it), and I might value safety and security more than him. As we talked it out in a loving, respectful, compassionate conversation that did not erupt into an argument (yay!), we realized that we both have those core values. But he feels generally very secure and connected to me on a daily basis. Whereas I occasionally need a bit more interaction or “check-ins” while he spends time with other people that he loves. He pointed out that I need to TRUST that he has my best interests at heart and is committed to our relationship WHILE he explores other relationships. Trust and integrity are paramount in good, healthy relationships. Right on. That all works for me. Success!

I found a great article that touches on this point directly in this excerpt. (link to full article below if you are interested in reading it).

One of the things that make two people a good match is that they have the same “core” values. By having the same core values, I don’t mean being the same personality type or having the same education or working in the same field. I mean you have the same basic attitudes when it comes to what’s important in life, not least what’s important when it comes to relationships.

One of the reasons why many relationships get into serious trouble is that the man and the woman don’t have the same core values. A “mismatch” like this usually spells trouble because most people live according to their core values – and usually unconsciously expect their partners to do so too. This can be problematic when these core values don’t match. Let’s take an example. Let’s say one of your core values is “freedom” while your partner’s core values are “security and feeling safe”. Obviously this can make your relationship problematic because you will both unconsciously be expecting the other to behave in a manner that is in conflict with his or her core value or values. So when you are faithful to your core value and give yourself and your partner lots of “freedom”, your partner may get upset and feel insecure because his/her core values of “security and feeling safe” are not being met or are threatened. The opposite is true too. When your partner tries to live in harmony with his/her core value and strives for “security” for example, by wanting clear agreements on how you do things, the “freedom-loving” partner feels stifled and inhibited. You feel your core value of “freedom” is being threatened. So this is why it is so important to be more aware of what you and your partner’s (or a potential partner’s) core values are.

3) Lastly in terms of safety, he was a bit overdue to get his STD checkup. Since he has a new partner, I needed this step to feel physically safe and needed to know our poly family is protected. We have a free clinic only a mile or so from our house and at his own accord, he had already planned to get tested earlier this week. Awesome again!

After we talked, we both felt closer to each other, felt more understood, felt more loving towards each other, and our trust in each other grew exponentially. As we had these discussions, my husband supported the conversations and offered his guidance. He wants us all to be happy and healthy, in our loving home. We all win when things are flowing in the right direction, and feel balanced and good.

Feel free to offer your feedback on anything that I shared here. Was this information helpful for you in your relationships? Do you find your core values match up well with your partner(s)? Do you need to do any renegotiations to feel balanced?

Wishing you peace, love and happiness,
(and thrilling, fun sex too)

Kitty

NOTE: Almost immediately after I published this post, someone commented on a social networking site the following:

I take it personally when someone, especially one who already knows me, feels they need to use rules. It comes across as a lack of trust.

I thought it important to post my response here.

Thanks for contributing your thoughts. Here’s my take on some of the definitions etc. To me, a “rule” is imposed on someone POSSIBLY out of fear or insecurity and COULD be about manipulation and control. Whereas an agreement is two people having an agreement that seems sound and logical to both of them, and they both agree to follow it (safe sex for example). Some readers last week saw no real distinction between the two, but I do personally depending on how they are created. But lastly to me, a BOUNDARY is discussed by one party as a way to say, I understand MYSELF (it’s not about controlling the other person), and I know that X makes me uncomfortable because of Y. THUS, I have a boundary that I need to communicate to you – my partner whom I adore, so that we can try to not step on each other’s toes unintentionally. And sometimes as situations change, evolve and progress, so do our boundaries… For me, I found that if I am in a relationship with you, and you have other relationships, I need your partners to have full disclosure about me, that I exist and what I mean to you. It helps me feel emotionally and physically safe, as well as it feels open, honest and ethical to me. If that doesn’t happen, I start to build resentment which can potentially damage my relationships, and I don’t want that. I want my relationships to be happy and healthy. My partner can choose to respect my boundary, not respect my boundary and risk damaging the relationship with me, OR can describe to me exactly why they might not want to honor that boundary, and I then get to take their concerns into account to see if I can move my boundary maybe on a case-by-case basis. Communication is key, as always.

Wow, good stuff. One of the things I learned about “rules” early on was that they kinda made themselves as we all discovered how to co-exist in this strange, new dynamic. You know everyone has their list of do’s and don’t’s and then it’s about trying to meld everything into one cohesive vision that provides a structure but isn’t as limiting as it sounds – you gotta leave room for mistakes ’cause if you don’t, you really have problems.

Safety in all things is always an issue and sexual safety is at the top of the list and, yeah, there has to be rules for this. Yes, rules tend to be binding and a few other negative things I can’t think of right now… but you just can’t say, “The first rule is there are no rules” and then expect a standard of behavior from everyone in your poly group. Everyone has to agree that this is the way things are gonna go and has to go for the sake of everyone’s health and wellbeing – and there can’t be any exceptions or excuses for not being as safe as humanly possible.

I think if no one asks, “What are the rules?” that’s a problem. You can have safety, matching or coordinated core values and even a shared vision if you will… but without structure, without a framework or foundation, your poly “house” is going to crumble before you really get it built; I just don’t see any other way around it.

As always, thanks for your contributions here. You always have such good thoughts to share. Since you liked this post, you might want to check back to it, because I just added a new section at the end based on an important comment that came in via my FB page. I’m glad that you are enjoying this series of articles as I navigate these tricky waters I find myself in, all while trying to be ethical and loving, yet giving my partner(s) the freedom that they deserve. You worded everything very well in your comment. I loved this:

“one cohesive vision that provides a structure but isn’t as limiting as it sounds – you gotta leave room for mistakes.”

… and also:

“without structure, without a framework or foundation, your poly “house” is going to crumble before you really get it built.”

I’m generally anti-rules, but my distinction between rules and boundaries is a little different from what I’ve seen put forward here (and in your other post on the topic). To me, it comes down to the intention. Who are you trying to control? Boundaries are about controlling yourself, whereas rules are about controlling others. They can have the same practical effect. I.e. you have a policy about dating people in DADT relationships. Whether it’s a rule or a boundary comes down to whether you intend that policy to control your behavior or others’ behavior. I.e. are you saying that you’ll avoid people in DADT relationships, or are you saying that you’ll attempt to pressure potential partners to tell their other partners about you?

Sexual health is usually the biggest and most obvious area where most poly people feel that rules are necessary. It’s very common for polycules have a rules about barrier use and protocols for fluid bonding. Those types of rules tend to be explicitly about controlling people’s behavior – i.e. if you’re thinking about having unprotected sex with an unapproved partner, don’t do it!

I don’t find that necessary. I trust my partners to look after their own (and my) sexual health. My partners have all articulated their intention to practice safer sex with new partners, but it’s because *they* care about their sexual health, and the sexual health of the polycule, not because there is a rule about it. Everyone in the polycule has their own boundary about safer sex, and we are all intelligent adults, so we behave as such. No rule required.

In the even that a partner of mine decided that condom use was optional, I would say something to the effect of “I will not feel safe having sex with you if you have unprotected sex with nonserious partners.” That may influence their behavior, but that’s not why the policy is in place. It’s in place because I care about my own sexual health, and so I choose not to have sex with people that I don’t trust to look after their (and my) sexual health. A controlling thing to say would be “you have to use condoms” or “we all agreed to use condoms, so you need to stick to the agreement.”

I’m also getting concerned that the term “anarchy” is getting thrown around as a scare term. I identify as a relationship anarchist, and I have some of the most stable relationships I know of. Anarchy doesn’t mean chaos, it just means no authority. Nobody is in charge. Nobody is telling each other what to do. People are encouraged to do what they want, as much of the time as possible. Expectations are communicated the same as any other relationships. It’s just explicit that setting expectations is just making predictions about the future, which can be wrong, and are subject to change.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. You bring up some great points, shed some much needed light on the topic of “relationship anarchy” (of which I have only read a little about. Great article, by the way!) and you also look to have a very informative blog. Thanks for sharing.

It does sound like the way you do relationships is somewhat different than mine, not that there’s anything at all wrong with that. 🙂 I generally do not subscribe 100% to the relationship anarchy way of thinking, but I respect it, as someone else’s relationship style of choice. To your point, at worst, one could argue that I am pressuring my partner to tell their other partners about me, and the extent of our relationship. Putting the word “pressure” in there does sound not desirable. The way I think about it though is more from MY standpoint: I subscribe to open, honest, ethical non-monogamy, at the same time that I value my own freedom and the freedom of my partner. I tried on for size the idea that one of my beau’s partners was “in the dark” partly by choice (DADT) about my beau’s lovers, including me. But I noticed that I was starting to grow resentment and also had concern for my own safety as well as hers. For me personally, I believe there should be open conversations about sexual history, number of current partners, etc. And I also find that the truth sets us free. So again, as I said in the note at the bottom of the post: Once I state my concern, my beau can respect that boundary that I have found within myself, choose to not respect it with the knowledge that it might damage his relationship with me, or lastly, we can have an in depth conversation where he debunks my theories and thoughts, and explains why he does not want to give full disclosure to the partner whose somewhat “in the dark”, thus I can then decide if I want to change my mind / move my boundary. To me, this is respectful and as you said, two adults having a grown up conversation. In the end, it turned out that my beau had already decided (prior to this conversation) that he was going to tell this partner more details of his own accord. So by default, we happened to be on the same page, and I didn’t have to “pressure” or “coerce” him about anything. He came to the very same conclusion himself for HIS benefit as well.

Your paragraph that starts with “In the event that a partner of mine decided that condom use was optional…” I agree with 100% and have the same exact thinking.

I am very genuinely happy for you that you have relationships that are very stable and working well for you. I am doing my best to learn all types of skills and different ways of looking at things in this regard. I get the distinction you outline that anarchy is not “chaos” but rather no authority. I don’t feel I have authority over my partner. I used the term “chaos” in my last post partly as an imperfect way to describe what I was potentially feeling / pondering, and wanted to discuss some of these feelings and needs to my partner, to feel out where we both were at, and if we could find common ground, which we did.

To your point, at worst, one could argue that I am pressuring my partner to tell their other partners about me, and the extent of our relationship.

I think people hear the word “pressure” and think “bad,” but that’s not always necessarily the case. E.g., I think it’s ok to pressure people to behave ethically. If you think they are doing something unethical, it’s perfectly ok to say “hey! Stop that!” Likewise, if someone is doing something that hurts you, it’s ok to pressure them to cut it out. It’s a little more dangerous, but still ok, if you know someone well enough to know that they are engaging in self-destructive behavior, to attempt to get them to change their behavior. Not all pressure is coercive; some can even be friendly.

Once I state my concern, my beau can respect that boundary that I have found within myself, choose to not respect it with the knowledge that it might damage his relationship with me, or lastly, we can have an in depth conversation where he debunks my theories and thoughts”

Yeah, that’s pretty much the way I would do it, too. One of the interesting things about RA is that it pretty much works the same way as other relationships, just with a different mindset. I can’t really point to any decisions that I’ve made *because I’m a relationship anarchist.* It’s mostly just about the intentions behind my actions. One of the reasons I identify that was is because when I heard about it, I was like “oh, that’s already what I’m doing. Huh.”

From my blog post, it always comes back to this for me:

The scary part about consent culture is the same thing as the scary part about atheism. Namely – if there are no rules and nobody is pressuring people to behave a certain way, people will do awful things! Atheists generally have no trouble shrugging off this criticism, most often pointing out that they have no desire to do awful things, and if fear of god is the only thing preventing people from committing atrocities, then we are truly in trouble. I would make the same argument with respect to relationships. If people are permitted to do whatever they want, free from pressure or coercion, what would truly be different? If you’re in a relationship, consider this question: what is it that your partner wants to do that would be so awful if they did it?

Thanks for YOUR reply! Well, the way you described it there, maybe I’m more of a relationship anarchist than I thought. LOL And most certainly my beau is I bet more than I. Maybe the reason I wouldn’t describe myself that way is because I am also happily married (my beau is not), and I came from the former life of monogamy and am learning to walk in new shoes, so to speak. But I bet I have alot of overlap with your thinking.

I liked what you said about the word “pressure” not always being bad. My kneejerk when I read that was that one might think I was trying to manipulate my beau to do what I wanted him to do. But that’s not it at all. I want to have a discussion about it and voice where I’m coming from, see where he’s coming from and go from there. But yes I did use the words, “that doesn’t feel ethical to me and I am not cool with it” to your point. And in a way, I realized he was in danger of unknowingly hurting me, so I wanted to forewarn him, so to speak. I take your point about self-destructive behavior and have had to have that conversation with close friends as well. To me, that is looking out for your loved ones because you care about them. Kind of like, “hey, did you know that are about to fall in a ditch? Watch out!” Seems caring and loving to me, not coercive. Good point. And yes, a different kind of “pressure” perhaps.

Also, your reaction to finding out what relationship anarchy was is the same way I felt when I learned what the term polyamory was – except I wasn’t doing it at the time. I was struggling against society because I apparently WANTED to do it but thought that it wasn’t even a choice, until I learned and accepted that it was! Interesting.

Loved the last question too. I liked it when I read it on your post and am glad that you highlighted it here. I think sometimes in other situations: “What’s the worst that can happen,” think through that fear, and then work backwards to what is reality and what maybe you could or could not easily handle.

That’s awesome. I checked out your blog and I liked it as well. Keep having fun with it! And I’m so glad that you enjoyed the post and the links. I find tons of great info that I like to share with the class. 🙂

I think in the beginning “rules” and boundaries are a way to build your partner’s trust in you. Once you demonstrate that you are respecting them, it helps you both grow. To get to the growth, you have to be willing and open to communicate everything. It takes an enormous amount of self reflection and open discussion. Throughout this, if the rules are not intended to manipulate or control someone, you can move to the next level. That’s how we’ve gone from swinging to poly.

Thanks for your insights. Well, I’ve been with my beau for almost four years, so it’s not the beginning per se. But what I have found is that our relationship grows, evolves and changes, as do his relationships with others. So it’s a moving target and sometimes we need to adjust, renegotiate or air concerns or feelings when they arise. And sometimes, my feelings might change on a topic. As our relationship deepens, so do my feelings, etc. We have been growing more and more over time. And to your point, I think it’s both of our willingness to be open and to communicate everything, even when we might be hesitant to, or concerned how the other will take it that helps us grow more. We then both improve our communication skills. I agree on the enormous amount of self reflection and discussion. Wonderful comment, thank you.