[quote] name='roohif' timestamp='1317334347' post='75232']
Yes, although I do allow for the possibility that something exists outside of this universe.[/quote]

roohif,

Okay. Only the material world exists. I assume that, for you, whatever MIGHT exist outside this universe is also material. But then you have a problem. You are reasoning. Rational reasoning involves using the laws of logic. Therefore a rational worldview must be able to account for the existence of such laws. As an example, let's just consider one of the laws of logic: the law of non-contradiction. This law states that any contradiction is false; you can't have A and not-A at the same time and in the same relationship (where the letter A represents any claim). In an atheist worldview, why should there be a law of non-contradiction, or for that matter, any laws of reasoning? Laws of logic and rational reasoning are not part of the physical universe nor can they originate from the physical universe. An accident of chemicals and molecules which is physical will not give you non-physical laws of logic.

The Christian can answer this question. For the Christian there is an absolute standard for reasoning; we are to pattern our thoughts after God's. And we know (in a finite, limited way) how God thinks because He has revealed some of His thoughts through His word. According to Genesis, God has made us in His image (Gen. 1:26) and therefore we are to follow His example (Eph. 5:1). The laws of logic are a reflection of the way God thinks and thus the way He expects us to think. The law of non-contradiction is not simply one person's opinion of how we ought to think, rather it stems from God's self-consistent nature. God cannot deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:13), and all truth is in God (John 14:6; Col. 2:3), therefore truth will not contradict itself. Since God is constantly upholding the universe by His power (Heb. 1:3), the consistent Christian expects that no contradiction will ever occur in the universe.

Laws of logic, which are not physical, can't come from the dust of the earth. While Adam came from the dust of the earth, his life essence and his ability to use laws of logic and rationally think came from above and from the non-physical--a Spiritual God. Laws of logic are God's standard for thinking. Thus, rational reasoning would be impossible without the biblical God.

Laws of logic make sense in a Christian worldview. But an atheist worldview can't account for laws of logic and rational thought. Now this is not to say that atheists are not logical or that they do not reason. But when an atheist uses laws of logic and reasons, he is being illogical, inconsistent and arbitrary within his worldview. He uses laws of logic and reasons illogically that only the physical exists. But he is using nonphysical laws of logic to argue that only the physical exists. And he is using rational thought which can only come from the rational mind of God to argue against the God who gave him the ability to use laws of logic and think rationally. This is much like the child who sits in his father's lap while slapping him in the face.

In an atheist worldview, you are simply an accident of chemicals. Laws of logic and rational thought can't come from below. They must come from above.

[quote]As above, I'm not convinced that there is anything outside this material universe.[/quote]

You may want to reconsider. From the argument I presented above, there are laws of logic which are not physical. So there is something besides the physical. If you can admit that, then we have somewhere to start.

[quote]I'm curious where these questions are coming from though. How are you going to get from "There must be a creator God" to "Therefore Jesus is his son and died for our sins"? To cut to the chase, and save you some time: I think it's possible that there is a creator (although I don't "believe" there is); I "know" that the Bible is false, and I "know" that common descent is true. Normally I'd say that I'd be happy to demonstrate why, but in recent debates I've begun to question whether there is any point ... outside of pushing my opponent into a position he knows is unreasonable.
[/quote]

roohif, jumping from creation to Jesus is too big a leap for you at the moment. If we use the non-physical laws of logic, we can reason a few things:

a) The universe could not have always been here.

It could not have created itself from nothing.

So, if it could not have always been here and it could not have created itself from nonthing, do you have an explanation which excludes a Creator?

TeeJay: Evolutionists date bones by the earth they are found in and date the earth by the bones. Go figure!

Is that what you actually believe, or was it just an offhand remark? I think I'm now more interested in the psychology of believers than I am in the apologetics / counter-apologetics ..

Roohif, this is off-topic here, but I can cite you distinct examples of this in high school text books written by evolutionists. I agree with you on one thing, there are a lot of "offhand remarks" in our textbooks!

3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not acceptedÃ¢â‚¬â€you may well put up with it!--2 Corinthians 11

I posted this verse because I think that Teejay is referring to it in his posts, but I didn't see it cited, unless I missed it.

3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!--2 Corinthians 11

Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." You have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. You have accepted a Mormon jesus who does not exist--a Morman jesus that you refuse to denounce publically on this thread. I asked this before and I ask it again: Will you join me in pubically denouncing the false Mormon jesus?

To have the Holy Spirit, you must first accept the true Jesus Christ for He will send you the Holy Spirit. But the true Jesus Christ will not accept you unless you humble yourself and denounce the false Mormon jesus which you have accepted and now worship. Unless you do this, you can't come to Jesus. Unless you accept Jesus, you can't get the Holy Spirit. And unless you get the Holy Spirit, you can't possibly get wisdom.

The Mormon jusus described by the Mormon Church is contradictory to the true Jesus Christ described in the Bible. By definition, two contradictions can't both be true. That's not possible. Do you agree with this?

I parted from the Mormons because I no longer accepted many of the beliefs they hold in that I did not feel they were biblically-based. One of my differences with them was their concept of the some aspects about the nature of Christ. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and saviour and quite frankly you do not know me well enough to make a statement that I do not. It is very presumptious of you to do so. This is between me and The Lord. My relationship with Christ is not based upon my denouncing another sect. I have known Mormons that most likely have accepted Jesus in the fullest sense. Looking back, I was a Christian first and a Mormon second for years before finally packing up and leaving them. But I am left with a knowledge of the Mormons that is far more complete than your knowledge. The Mormons have a concept of Jesus that is in part wrong in my opinion. But in terms of His role in providing us with saving grace they share a similar concept with Christians of many sects.

I used to hear disagreements in Mormon Sunday school classes that I later heard repeated in Presbyterian Sunday school classes. You and I are apparently in opposite camps in terms of one aspect, just as these classes divided. I think that the Holy Spirit heps bring about conversion, which comes through gaining a wisdom of what is true regarding Christ. So I believe that the Holy Spirit can be present to honest seekers before they have accepted Christ, such as those seeking Christ by reading the Bible. In those classes there was a split opinion about this.

"Being born again is a process that involves the Holy Spirit. The Bible on its own cannot bring about this spiritual process. For me when I am guided by the Holy Spirit it is often to show me answers and guidance through the scriptures. I find that I seek or understand better a portion of the Bi(b)le that I am being guided towards.

I think it somewhat like what is expressed in the closing line of "The Polar Express"...

No, I am not equating a belief in Santa Claus with faith in God. It is just that some do not seek the help of God, and are receiving the benefit from the Holy Spirit that is promised them. We should be open to hearing the bell, with is symbolic of maintaining faith and being open to the pr(o)mptings of the Holy Spirit."

Salvation is not a process.

I did not say salvation is a process as you are taking my meaning. I was clearly speaking of coming from a state of non-belief in Christ to a state of believing. That is a process in my opinion. Accepting Christ brings salvation, that is the result of a process.

No where in the Bible does it say that salvation is a "process." Here's what it is:

Salvation

What I am now about to tell you will seem too good to be true. You will say "It just canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t be that simple.Ã¢â‚¬Â

But if you donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t believe me, then tear all of PaulÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s letters out of the Bible.

"But what does it say? ... (that is, the word of faith which we preach); that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvationÃ¢â‚¬Â (Rom. 10:9-10).

When we make this prayer of faith, Paul writes:

Ã¢â‚¬Å“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into the BodyÃ¢â‚¬â€whether Jews or Greeks [Gentiles], whether slaves or freeÃ¢â‚¬â€and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.Ã¢â‚¬Â 1 Cor. 12:13

And this is not in conflict with what I said.

Once in the Body of Christ, we are secure. We cannot lose our salvation!

Ã¢â‚¬Å“In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee [down payment] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession [our bodies at the rapture] to the praise of His gloryÃ¢â‚¬Â. Eph. 1:13-14

Ã¢â‚¬Å“There is one Body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.Ã¢â‚¬Â Eph. 4:4-6

After praying the prayer of salvation, your name is recorded in the LambÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Book of Life. You are an heir. Imagine hearing that your rich uncle mentioned you in his will. You would immediately read the will to see what you are entitled to. When you pray this prayer, you are mentioned in GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s will--PaulÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s writings. Read them carefully! There are numerous blessings. But you canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t receive them if you are ignorant of them.

Now, when someone asks you, Ã¢â‚¬Å“If you died right now, would you go to heaven or hell?Ã¢â‚¬Â you can confidently and joyfully answer, Ã¢â‚¬Å“Most assuredly. I have humbled myself before God and admitted I am a lost sinner. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I have accepted His sacrifice on the cross as more than sufficient payment for my sinsÃ¢â‚¬â€past, present, and future. I am washed in the blood of Christ. If I died with Him, I shall also live with Him forever. Oh Death, where is thy sting.Ã¢â‚¬Â

TeeJay

If I read correctly what you are posting, there is a part I would not agree with. I don't hold to "Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) being a correct concept given by God, I think it is a concept invented by man. It is a concept at least as misuided as some of the concepts the Mormons have created that are not sound doctrine.

Why did you agree with Geode? A careful reading of your Bible and then a comparison with the teachings of the Mormon Church reveals that Geode can't possibly be "guided by the Holy Spirit." To get the gift of the Holy Spirit, one must first accept the true Jesus Christ. Geode accepted a false jesus who does not exist when he was a Mormon--a false jesus which he now refuses to denounce publically on this thread.

This is why the Bible is so important. Without it, we can only reach truth by accident.

Also, salvation is not a "process." Please read my Post 29 to Geode.

TeeJay

One reason I left the Mormons was that there were too many people amongst them that were similar to yourself in proclaiming themselves experts on religious matters and claiming that those who disagreed with them were wrong, not following God, and in need of finding God and repentance.

I am not a Mormon any more, so your statements are false right off the bat, but I disagreed with some misconceptions you have about Mormons so I guess that is why you feel you must misrepresent what I believe. It doesn't matter, because you are wrong about what I believe and what I accept and your opinions have no impact on my relationship with Christ.

Geode, I am glad that is cleared up and I see that we are still in agreement here. I also know what you mean about your reaction to that attitude, since JWs believe anyone that disagrees with any aspect of their doctrine is controlled by Satan.

I was being led to Christ and improving my attitude (becoming more Christ-like) while I was still a JW and for a few years before I was saved. However, I do not believe the JWs that say that they are born-again because if they were they would leave.

I have to agree with you--good points. But one should be able to discern the Holy Spirit if he has grown in Christ. False spirits can come but we are to test them with the word, because the Spirit is God, and the Spirit of truth. We have the same Spirit dwelling in our hearts as the apostles--maybe not the same measure--but we should as Christians be able to discern by the fruits He produces in our life (i.e. our actions are either motivated by our flesh, or the Holy Spirit). And the leadings, tasks, messages, or impressions we receive from him will be in the fruit of the Spirit, and in agreement with God's word.

AFJ

Exactly! We are to test them with the word. Why? Because the Word will not disagree with the Holy Spirit nor will the Holy Spirit disagree with the Word. God says that by the mouth of two or more witnesses a matter is established. Even Jesus said not to believe His own witness (John 5:31).

Theres a verse in the OT which reads, There was no king in Israel and everyone was doing what was right in their own eyes. Any day of the week and any hour of the day, one can turn on the TV to any Christian channel and one will hear messages that sound so good. But most of these messages are clichés that totally disagree with the Word. A good example is most TV evangelists preach that we should forgive everyone. But Gods word totally disagrees with this teaching (Luke 17:3).

Most of the demonstrators outside prisons protesting the execution of murderers are Christians who think they are led by the Spirit and are doing Gods bidding. But Gods word says that when we fail to execute murderers we profane God (Ezek. 13:19). On another thread, I listed all crimes for which God demands the death penalty. With the exception of Fred, all Christians who responded disagreed with Gods word. Were they led by the Holy Spirit? I think not.Quote

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

If Paul had not written his letters, no human on Planet Earth would every know that we are now saved by grace (faith plus nothing). A grace gospel can only be found in the writings of Paul (Gal. 2:7-9).

Quote

Teejay--Before Jesus was crucified and ascended, He promised His apostles that the Holy Spirit would tell them what to say and enlighten them. That promise was not made to us.

Before Jesus ascended, He spoke only to Israel. Jesus came only to the house of Israel. When He sent out His disciples to preach the gospel of the kingdom, He sent them only to the House of Israel (and Samaria because these are half-Jewish). Jesus came to Israel with the gospel of circumcision or law. Jesus promised an outpouring of the Holy Spirit to Israel as prophesied by Joel (Joel 2:28-32 w/ Acts 2:16). After this miraculous event, the gift of the Holy Spirit was a baptism by the laying on of hands by one who had the Holy Spirit.

For the Jews under the gospel of circumcision, the baptism of the Holy Spirit gave them power to perform miracles (Acts 3:6-8). And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover (Mark 16:17-18). Today, we are not immune to poisons or Texas Diamond Backs. I live in Texas, and I can attest to the latter.

Israel was to be Gods evangelical nation to the world. God gave Israel three evangelical toolsthe law, miracles, and Jesus. Israel Ark of the Covenant was also called the Ark of Testimony. In this Ark were three items: two stone tablets (law), Aarons rod that budded (miracles), and a Jar of manna or bread from heaven (Jesus).

But before Israel was to go to the world, Israel, as a nation, had to accept their risen Messiah. They had rejected Jesus when He walked among them. So in the parable of the fig tree (Israel), Jesus lamented that He had come for three years seeking fruit on this tree (Israel) but found none. He was ready to cut it down, but the Holy Spirit persuaded Jesus to give the tree another year and if it did not bear fruit, then cut it down.

So understandably, in the first half of Acts, we see Peter and his followers trying to persuade Israel to accept their risen Messiah so that God the Father would send Jesus back and Israel would have their kingdom (Acts 3:20).

But the whole nation of Israel rejected their risen Messiah and God cut off Israel for unbelief. This may come as a surprise to you but there is no Biblical record of any circumcision apostle witnessing to any Gentile other than Peter going to the Gentile centurion Cornelius. And this was after God cut off Israel and commissioned Paul to go directly to the Gentiles bypassing Israel with a different gospela gospel of grace apart from the law. And most Christians fail to notice that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit without being circumcised or without a laying on of hands by Peter. This was Gods way of telling Peter that Israel had been cut off and the mantle had been passed to Paul.

A failure to realize that Israel was under the law after the Cross and that Israel was cut off leads to all the confusion that we have in Christianity today. To see the difference between Israel and the special revelation the Jews received, simply compare Stephens oration under the power of the Holy Spirit and Paul (Acts 17:10-12). While Paul tells us that the Spirit helps us discern spiritual things (helps us to understand the Word), we do not get spoon-fed by the Holy Spirit. While Paul received the special revelation of the gospel of grace directly from God, we now get this revelation from Pauls letters to the Body of Christ of whom we are members. Paul writes that this dispensation of grace was given to him for us and was a mystery never before revealed. So without Pauls writings, we would not know we were saved by grace. A reading of the four gospels and any circumcision apostle teaches that we are not saved by grace but law keeping and works are necessary.

So we must rightly divide the word of truthIsrael from the Body, law from grace.

I have to disagree on this one, I believe it was made to us. I believe you are referring to Acts 1:8

I believe I addressed above.Quote

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power ("dunamis"-gr strength power) when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

He is most definitely talking to his disciples there, but that does not exclude us from the strength power of the Holy Spirit, because we are also called to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. If you look at Act's 2:38,39 Peter says...

But you are not Israel. You are a member of the Body of Christ. While Paul initially received miracles and tongues, Paul prophesied that these would pass away. God gave Paul miracles and tongues at the outset of his ministry as an outward stamp of approval so that when Peter looked at Paul, he knew Paul was legit. Later in Pauls ministry, he writes to Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach and he writes that he had to leave one of his helpers near death and proceed on his missionary journey alone.

Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far offfor all whom the Lord our God will call.The promise of the same dunamis power (again not in the measure of the apostles) is for all who the Lord our God shall call. I thank God for that power when we went witnessing in the streets in America, and preaching in Africa. I needed the power of the Lord for faith and boldness against the spirit of unbelief all around. Ocassionally, the Lord would open a door for us to pray for sick people, and they would be healed--it was the Lord. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever! Heb. 13:8

This should be normal! We are supposed to be concerned with spreading the gospel, but too many times Christians (including myself) get comfortable, and say my 4 and no more. No wonder people believe in evolution. We're not doing our job many times.

All this would apply to us today IF Israel had not been cut off. This promise was made to Jews under the Gospel of circumcision or law and miracles. Peter is not your apostle; your apostle is Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles. You are under the gospel of grace and not under the gospel of circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9). To read a correct translation of Galatians 2:7-9, you must read it from the King James and not a newer translation. Newer translations translate this incorrectly.

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1317397460' post='75259']
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not acceptedÃ¢â‚¬â€you may well put up with it!--2 Corinthians 11
[/quote]

ME, two questions:

a) To whom is this addressed?

Are you interpreting this passage to mean that Paul is giving us permission to accept "another Jesus" or a "different spirit" or a "different gospel" than what Paul preached?

If Paul had not written his letters, no human on Planet Earth would every know that we are now saved by grace (faith plus nothing). A grace gospel can only be found in the writings of Paul (Gal. 2:7-9).

Quote

Before Jesus ascended, He spoke only to Israel.

I disagree on both points.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: Ã¢â‚¬Å“Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

John 4:10 Jesus answered her, Ã¢â‚¬Å“If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.Ã¢â‚¬Â

According to the verses from Matthew above, was this woman of Israel? NO

What did Jesus tell her she needed to do to receive the living water? Perceive to whom she was speaking and ask for it. Is that not the gospel that we preach today?

So Jesus both spoke to a Non-Israelite and told her about the gospel of grace.

I parted from the Mormons because I no longer accepted many of the beliefs they hold in that I did not feel they were biblically-based. One of my differences with them was their concept of the some aspects about the nature of Christ.

Geode,

The Mormon jesus did not exist eternity past but came to be. The true Jesus is the God Ã¢â‚¬Å“who is, who was, and who is to come.Ã¢â‚¬Â Both the Mormon jesus and the true Jesus descried in the Bible canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t be true at the same time in the same way. Both can be false gods, but both canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t possibly be true. Do you agree? Please answer.

The Mormon Church teaches that their jesus is SatanÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s brother. The Bible teaches that Jesus is God the Son and that Satan is a fallen angel created by God. The Mormon Church and the Bible canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t both be true. Do you agree? Please answer.

Now, since the Mormon jesus is a false god that does not exist, will you agree with God that Joseph Smith is a false prophet who foisted a false jesus on his followers?

I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and quite frankly you do not know me well enough to make a statement that I do not. It is very presumptuous of you to do so.

To be Ã¢â‚¬Å“presumptuousÃ¢â‚¬Â is to assume something is true in the absence of any evidence to the contrary. I have two pieces of evidence: a) You posted on another thread that you accepted jesus when you were a Mormon. The Mormon jesus canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t possibly be God and has to be a false jesus. 2) Evidence that you accepted a false jesus is that you are now unwilling to denounce this false jesus.

If you met a former Muslim who claimed to be a Christian but refused to denounce the pagan moon god named Allah, would you be Ã¢â‚¬Å“presumptuousÃ¢â‚¬Â to conclude he is not saved?

This is between me and The Lord. My relationship with Christ is not based upon my denouncing another sect.

IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m not asking you to denounce a Ã¢â‚¬Å“sect.Ã¢â‚¬Â IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m asking you to denounce a false Mormon god who does not exist and who is leading millions to an eternity in Hell apart from their Creator. If you were a Christian, you would want to scream this from the rooftops. And if salvation was simply between men and God, then why did God command us to witness of Him?

I have known Mormons that most likely have accepted Jesus in the fullest sense. Looking back, I was a Christian first and a Mormon second for years before finally packing up and leaving them.

Geode, being a Christian and a Mormon at the same time is simply not logically possible.

But I am left with a knowledge of the Mormons that is far more complete than your knowledge. The Mormons have a concept of Jesus that is in part wrong in my opinion.

If you think your knowledge of the Mormons is more complete than mine, we can have Fred set up a debate. Geode, why canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t you understand? ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s not simply their Ã¢â‚¬Å“conceptÃ¢â‚¬Â thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s wrong; itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s their jesus that is wrong.

But in terms of His role in providing us with saving grace they share a similar concept with Christians of many sects.

Salvation canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t come through a concept. Salvation is only through Jesus. Salvation canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t come from a Mormon jesus that does not exist. The Mormon jesus canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t guarantee existence let alone salvation.

I used to hear disagreements in Mormon Sunday school classes that I later heard repeated in Presbyterian Sunday school classes. You and I are apparently in opposite camps in terms of one aspect, just as these classes divided. I think that the Holy Spirit heps bring about conversion, which comes through gaining a wisdom of what is true regarding Christ. So I believe that the Holy Spirit can be present to honest seekers before they have accepted Christ, such as those seeking Christ by reading the Bible. In those classes there was a split opinion about this.

Is Jesus Christ God? If you have the Holy Spirit, then you should be able to answer correctly.

"Being born again is a process that involves the Holy Spirit. The Bible on its own cannot bring about this spiritual process. For me when I am guided by the Holy Spirit it is often to show me answers and guidance through the scriptures. I find that I seek or understand better a portion of the Bi(b)le that I am being guided towards.

Did the Holy Spirit tell you that being born again is a process? The Bible says just the opposite. So shouldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t the Holy Spirit agree with the Word?

I did not say salvation is a process as you are taking my meaning. I was clearly speaking of coming from a state of non-belief in Christ to a state of believing. That is a process in my opinion. Accepting Christ brings salvation, that is the result of a process.

Until I hear you denounce Mormonism as a false religion and Joseph Smith as a false prophet, and the Mormon jesus as a false god, I must point out that you are in the Ã¢â‚¬Å“processÃ¢â‚¬Â mode working your way to a true acceptance of the true Jesus Christ.

If I read correctly what you are posting, there is a part I would not agree with. I don't hold to "Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) being a correct concept given by God, I think it is a concept invented by man. It is a concept at least as misguided as some of the concepts the Mormons have created that are not sound doctrine.

One has to first have salvation before one can lose it. After IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m sure that you are saved, I will show you that your salvation is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit. You said, Ã¢â‚¬Å“I think it is a concept invented by man.Ã¢â‚¬Â What caused you to think this? The Holy Spirit? Suppose the GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s word says the opposite?

Genesis (the past) is the key to the present. Without Genesis we canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t know anything.

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1317493900' post='75291']
I am sorry. I thought the scripture spoke for itself. I tried to clarify. It was posted in agreement with your points that were addressed to Geode.
[/quote]

ME,

I thought this was the case. I just wanted to be sure. It always amazes me how many Christians interpret this passage to mean that Paul says it's okay to accept another gospel or another Jesus.

I thought this was the case. I just wanted to be sure. It always amazes me how many Christians interpret this passage to mean that Paul says it's okay to accept another gospel or another Jesus.

Thanks for posting that.

TeeJay

Wow really? He is saying that he fears that they will be deceived and thus be corrupted by acceptance of a false Jesus. How is that not clear? It is so sad how men who do not have the Spirit can easily corrupt God's word.

3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not acceptedÃ¢â‚¬â€you may well put up with it!--2 Corinthians 11

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1317494250' post='75292']
I disagree on both points.[/quote]

ME

A careful reading of Paul's letters (I'll let you do it) reveals that over and over again, Paul write of the "dispensation of the grace of God that was given to me for you." He also writes that this new dispensation of grace was a "mystery" never before revealed. He called it "my gospel." He also claimed that he did not get his gospel from any man, but directly from Jesus Christ. He claimed to be the first man saved under this new gospel of grace ("I am the pattern"). A grace gospel with no law keeping or works can't be found anywhere except in Paul's writings.

Jesus came only to the house of Israel. When He sent His disciples out to preach the gospel of the kingdom (not the gospel of grace), He commanded to go only to the House of Israel. In the Great Commission, He commanded them to go to the House of Israel first and Samaria. Going to Gentiles was contingent on Israel accepting their risen Messiah. Israel rejected their risen Messiah, so God cut Israel off (and this included the Twelve).

[quote]According to the verses from Matthew above, was this woman of Israel? NO[/quote]

On the contrary, she was of Samaria. These were half Jews. While Jesus came only to Israel, Samaritans were still dear to His heart, because they were descended from Father Abraham.

[quote]What did Jesus tell her she needed to do to receive the living water? Perceive to whom she was speaking and ask for it. Is that not the gospel that we preach today?[/quote]

No. It is not the gospel we preach today. Jesus was born under the law or the gospel of circumcision. Circumcision is a synonym for law. This is why Paul warned that if one got circumcised, one put himself under the law and had to keep the whole law. Under the gospel of circumcision, one had to keep the law and do good works and produce fruit and feed the poor, and take care of the sick, and visit prisoners, and take the plow and not look back and take up one's cross and follow Jesus and tithe, and have faith, and be a profitable servant, and get circumcised, and be baptized, and witness, and lay hands on the sick, and step on snakes with immunity, and be able to drink poison, and perform miracles, and forgive to be forgiven, and keep the Sabbath, and keep the feasts, and whew! And if one did his best and endured to the end, God would add a little grace to one's efforts and say, "Well done, good and faithful servant." Such is life under the gospel of circumcision.

Under the gospel of uncircumcision or gospel of grace, one only has to confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart and He came in the flesh and dired for our sins and is risen, then you are saved. It is faith plus nothing. You can find the gospel of grace only in Paul's writings. You can't find a gospel of grace in any of the circumcision writings. This is why James writes that works are necessary. Paul writes that if you try to get saved doing works, he will whip you. Who's right, James or Paul. Both are. James is obeying his Master under the gospel of circumcision. Paul is obeying Jesus under the gospel of uncircumcision.

[quote]So Jesus both spoke to a Non-Israelite and told her about the gospel of grace.
[/quote]

Again, she was half Jewish. As I recall, she referred to her Father Abraham. Under the gospel of circumcision, one was eventually saved by grace if he or she did one's best to keep the law and be a profitable servant. If one endured to the end, God would add a little grace to one's works and save him. But salvation by faith plus nothing is only revealed by Paul. And it was given to Paul only after Israel was cut off for unbelief. Many laws for Israel (circumcision, Sabbath keeping, feasts, etc.) are perpetual and everlasting. Presently, Israel is under the dispensation of grace the same as we are. In the Body of Christ there is no Jew or Gentile. But when Jesus comes back to Israel to give them their kingdom, they will be back under the dispensation of circumcision or the law.

Geode, I am glad that is cleared up and I see that we are still in agreement here. I also know what you mean about your reaction to that attitude, since JWs believe anyone that disagrees with any aspect of their doctrine is controlled by Satan.

I was being led to Christ and improving my attitude (becoming more Christ-like) while I was still a JW and for a few years before I was saved. However, I do not believe the JWs that say that they are born-again because if they were they would leave.

I became quite bothered by far too many Mormons claiming that they had the only true church. It seemed to me that their claim of exclusivity on Christ was not correct. I still feel that way, but also feel that way about some other sects that make similar claims. Christ comes to those who sincerely seek Him. I started attending services with a Presbyterian congregation and found that the gospel of Jesus Christ was alive and well outside the Mormon church, and that the people were more accepting of people from all walks of life or status in life, in my case being single. I now can see where Mormons had on some blinders. The senior pastor there was very ecumenical in his outlook and that fit in with my views. I never encountered a better preacher, or a purer form of what I think Christ intends for His church. Every sermon was void of politics and was Christ-centered and biblically rooted. The irony was that I could have taken any of his sermons and given them as a talk in Mormon meetings and it would have been accepted without being questioned. When the Mormons stay Christ-centered and biblically rooted they are fine, but they go off on tangents far too often and lose sight of what is important.

I knew some Mormons who were really "Cultural Mormons" that rejected some or much of Mormon doctrines. My mother was really of this sort much of the time. She was a member of the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers with her father being a first generation Mormon pioneer in the mid-19th Century (almost all other members were really granddaughters or great-granddaughters of the first pioneers. Some Mormons find it had to leave simply because of the life-long traditions, etc. It sounded to me that my mother rejected Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, yet she was troubled when I left simply because of how it appeared to her friends.

We're making some progress! With equivocation, you're admitting that the Mormon Church's "claim of exclusivity on Christ was not correct." But what I would like you to proclaim is that the Mormon jesus is a false god who does not exist. Why is this so difficult for you to do? Any saved Christian on this site should have no difficulty with this. Geode, questions:

Is the Jesus the brother of Satan? a) Yes. B) No.Is Jesus God? a) Yes. B) No.Is Jesus the One who is, who was, and who is to come? a) Yes. B) No.

And I will join you in denouncing any sect that disagrees with the Bible or the God of the Bible.

Christ comes to those who sincerely seek Him. I started attending services with a Presbyterian congregation and found that the gospel of Jesus Christ was alive and well outside the Mormon church, and that the people were more accepting of people from all walks of life or status in life, in my case being single. I now can see where Mormons had on some blinders. The senior pastor there was very ecumenical in his outlook and that fit in with my views. I never encountered a better preacher, or a purer form of what I think Christ intends for His church. Every sermon was void of politics and was Christ-centered and biblically rooted. The irony was that I could have taken any of his sermons and given them as a talk in Mormon meetings and it would have been accepted without being questioned. When the Mormons stay Christ-centered and biblically rooted they are fine, but they go off on tangents far too often and lose sight of what is important.

Jesus comes to everyone who accepts Him in accordance with Romans 10:9-10. So, your senior pastor was ecumenical. I interpret this to mean "we accept everyone." But Jesus Christ said that He was the truth. Truth by definition is exclusive. Any belief that contradicts Jesus and the Bible can't be true. If the Bible says that h*m*sexuals should be put to death, then any "sect" that says otherwise is a false sect and is contrary to God's word. Jesus says that "My word is true." So any teaching contrary to the Word is false. So you agree?

"What I think Christ intends for His church..." What you or I "think" does not matter one bit. It's what Christ "says" is what is true.

Why do you think that a sermon void of politics is a good thing?

It is not possible for a Mormon to be "Christ-centered." Why? Because the Mormon jesus does not exist and is a false god? Will you admit this?

And you have lost sight of "what's important," the true Jesus Christ who is the God who is, who was, and is to come. Do you agree?

I knew some Mormons who were really "Cultural Mormons" that rejected some or much of Mormon doctrines. My mother was really of this sort much of the time. She was a member of the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers with her father being a first generation Mormon pioneer in the mid-19th Century (almost all other members were really granddaughters or great-granddaughters of the first pioneers. Some Mormons find it had to leave simply because of the life-long traditions, etc. It sounded to me that my mother rejected Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, yet she was troubled when I left simply because of how it appeared to her friends.

God told Abraham to separate himself from his family who were pagan worshippers. God expects no less of you who refuse to denounce the pagan jesus of Mormonism. I'm getting tired of asking. Either denounce this false jesus or at least tell me that you refuse to do so.

God told Abraham to separate himself from his family who were pagan worshippers. God expects no less of you who refuse to denounce the pagan jesus of Mormonism. I'm getting tired of asking. Either denounce this false jesus or at least tell me that you refuse to do so.

I could post dozen of Watchtower quotes that say basically the same thing. JWs separate families based on their reasoning through the OT and one quote from Jesus. They are a destructive cult.

I beg of you to slow down long enough to let the Holy Spirit do the speaking.

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1317744743' post='75362']
I could post dozen of Watchtower quotes that say basically the same thing. JWs separate families based on their reasoning through the OT and one quote from Jesus. They are a destructive cult.

I beg of you to slow down long enough to let the Holy Spirit do the speaking.
[/quote]

ME,

Geode is making false claims about Mormonism. I refuse to let him do so. While I have prayed for him and will continue to do so, I will continue to put the truth before him. The Presbyterian minister who accepted him without confronting him as I am doing has done him a great dis-service. That minister should have told him the truth. This is probably the first time that anyone has confronted him with the fact that he is still a Mormon in his heart. I want him to repent and accept the true Jesus who is God and denounce the false jesus that he accepted while a Mormon. Until he does this, he is not saved and if he dies tonight, he will spend an eternity in hell. While it is the Holy Spirit's job to open his heart, it's my job to give him an uncomfortable kidney stone that will not pass until he accepts the true Jesus.

I am an apologist for Jesus Christ and always ready to defend the faith, as Peter admonishes us to do.