Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III

It was hulks fault 100% but Hamilton was battling for position, trying to out brake him. What happens to cars on the Inside wet line? Seriously is backing off never an option even if it means staying in the race and eventually winning? There is no luck in this, Hamilton wasn't at fault but he could try harder to stay out of trouble. That's why this keeps happening.

He's had 2 contacts of this type all season (spa obviously does apply), I agree he could have been more pragmatic in Valencia, no way anyone would be braking early to let another car through on the inside for the lead of a GP.

It was unfortunate in that the backmarker (kovi?) meant space was at a premium.

It was hulks fault 100% but Hamilton was battling for position, trying to out brake him. What happens to cars on the Inside wet line? Seriously is backing off never an option even if it means staying in the race and eventually winning? There is no luck in this, Hamilton wasn't at fault but he could try harder to stay out of trouble. That's why this keeps happening.

Hamilton was being overtaken. Sure he could have Webbered it and gone to the run off just in case something happened but let's be fair here, nobody races like that. Hamilton did not squeeze Hulk, he just drove the line and got caught in somebody else's accident. Unlucky. But that's not Hamilton "fighting" everything. Watch Schumi and Kimi going through there, much tighter, no accidents.

He's had 2 contacts of this type all season (spa obviously does apply), I agree he could have been more pragmatic in Valencia, no way anyone would be braking early to let another car through on the inside for the lead of a GP.

It was unfortunate in that the backmarker (kovi?) meant space was at a premium.

I agree with you, sometimes he doesn't accept a situation is fairly futile e.g. Valencia this year. 100% Maldonado's fault but the overtake was going to happen anyway so he should have yielded.

Today I feel enough room was given and very few on the grid would have pulled completely back. Hulkenberg made an unusual error (not many cars were spinning at turn 1).

Well it is what it is. I feel sorry for Hamilton that his last race with Mclaren didn't end on a better note and look forwards to seeing what he can do with that Mercedes. A lot, I reckon. Rosberg is a fast qualifier, but I think he's no Button over a season of racing.

I think the bottom line is that in every year Hamilton has had more crashes, more contact, more strategic failings and more mechanical issues than Button. It is what it is. He still beat Button 2-1, Button scored more points overall. It shows that aggression and speed can beat calmness and craft, but possibly not overall. They still have 1 title each after 3 seasons together, which is I feel an under-achievement for both of them, despite me also believe they have been an awesome driver pairing. Go figure!

That first season was key for me, that fact that Button was so close to Hamilton despite being new to the team is I think underrated. Very few drivers join a team, especially were the incumbent teammate is a world champion and has a reputation for being the fastest guy in f1 and put up a strong challenge. The next 2 seasons were blighted by Hamiltons head and then Buttons set up....

Like someone else said, I'm pretty comfortable with my own conclusions, for me the reason why they are close is obvious.

a) Hulk makes a half move up the inside of turn 1 on lap 17 and could have quite easily collected JB if he'd lost his back end, JB keeps him behindb) JB stands no chance on lap 19 when Hulk passes him, it's not remotely a similar situation

Things that happen repeatedly can't be put down to luck? That's a new one. Are you falbbergasted when the same number comes up 4 times in row in roulette?

I don't know if I wrote that post badly, but I was trying to make the opposite point, mate, in response to another poster - that those results show that things can happen repeatedly in a statistically unlikely way without there being any explainable underlying reason for it, and it can only be explained as luck, chance etc.

I don't know if I wrote that post badly, but I was trying to make the opposite point, mate, in response to another poster - that those results show that things can happen repeatedly in a statistically unlikely way without there being any explainable underlying reason for it, and it can only be explained as luck, chance etc.

Ah I see, sorry I totally missed that when I first read it. Well between us, I think we got the point across .

I'm not sure 'crashes' is the right verb. I'm not sure you can attribute an action towards Hamilton in the incident, he was 'swiped' by Hulkenberg.

I'm concerned if you think Hamilton was to blame for the incident. Well done to Jenson on the victory though, it was neck and neck and his courageous decision gave him 40-50 seconds on all but one car. Could have been a very, very dominating race with no safety cars.

IIRC, my first post on this thread. It seems for some JB fans Jenson 'not being thrashed' by Lewis 3-0 means Jenson is on the same level as Lewis. Anything that makes you happy guys. No doubt Jenson has raised his stock by staying much closer to Lewis than many expected but is he among the top drivers? Hell no. McLaren know Jenson and Lewis since three years. They wouldnt have offered Lewis the highest paid driver status if they had thoughts like you.

I know this is the JB vs LH thread, however the fact that McLaren were beaten by Ferrari in the WCC and that in the WDC standings, both JB and LH were beaten by Kimi in the Lotus is testament that the points table doesn't tell the whole story.

Hamilton was being overtaken. Sure he could have Webbered it and gone to the run off just in case something happened but let's be fair here, nobody races like that. Hamilton did not squeeze Hulk, he just drove the line and got caught in somebody else's accident. Unlucky. But that's not Hamilton "fighting" everything. Watch Schumi and Kimi going through there, much tighter, no accidents.

At the end of the day that's why you can say there is a gulf in class between drivers like Kimi, Alonso, Lewis, Vettel, Button etc and the rest. They know how to fight.

Yet again, Hamilton is expected to behave like no other top driver on the grid.

I predicted Hamilton would thrash Button at Mclaren. What is clear after 3 seasons is that Hamilton is on another level in terms of performance and talent, but as an overall package they are evenly matched. I still believe this was mostly down to Hamilton being on the end of more bad luck but over 3 seasons it should have balanced out. Hamilton has to share some responsibility in avoiding situations the way Button does. Button is a pretty good driver, better than I thought.

i think that if you read all of my posts then you would see that we dont actually disagree...lewis is an exceptional driver...really awesome

I don't have time to read individual posts as I was commenting on an observation concerning opinions. Yes Lewis is an exceptional driver and there is no shame in being beaten by him. Jenson is magnanimous in defeat.

I predicted Hamilton would thrash Button at Mclaren. What is clear after 3 seasons is that Hamilton is on another level in terms of performance and talent, but as an overall package they are evenly matched. I still believe this was mostly down to Hamilton being on the end of more bad luck but over 3 seasons it should have balanced out. Hamilton has to share some responsibility in avoiding situations the way Button does. Button is a pretty good driver, better than I thought.

When Hulk passed Button, it looked like Button let him through. Hulk's speed was pretty impressive.

It looked to me as if the FI had more down force, and JB had a little bit more than Hamilton. Hamilton was building a good lead until rain hit again, and it seemed that both McLaren's lost the same pace in those worsening conditions.

Hulk and Button were 40+ seconds down the road, by the time that'd have needed to stop, they could have well had enough time for two or three free pitstops... (based on 20 secs total loss for a stop, which is very generous for Brazil)

So Jenson beat Lewis over the three years together? That just feels so wrong. Fair play though, that's how things role and is a good cautionary tale for the kids to not just look at the points.

He beat him when points are added up but these guys race for results and the results show that Lewis won more races and finished ahead of Jenson in two of the three seasons. Lewis beat Jenson, although not as convincingly as I had hoped but the results this year don't tell the true gulf between their performances. Lewis really answered the critics this year and rightfully so we see praise for him throughout the paddock despite a very unlucky year.

So Jenson beat Lewis over the three years together? That just feels so wrong. Fair play though, that's how things role and is a good cautionary tale for the kids to not just look at the points.

Or not just look at speed.

Take ALL the occasions when Lewis or Jenson had any sort of issue and however biased the calculation, it remains very, very close after 3 years. Sure Hamilton is ahead but not by much at all. Take out any occasion where it was any sort of collision, penalty or strategic error and put it down to racing and hindsight and its closer still.

I predicted Hamilton would thrash Button at Mclaren. What is clear after 3 seasons is that Hamilton is on another level in terms of performance and talent, but as an overall package they are evenly matched. I still believe this was mostly down to Hamilton being on the end of more bad luck but over 3 seasons it should have balanced out. Hamilton has to share some responsibility in avoiding situations the way Button does. Button is a pretty good driver, better than I thought.

How could Lewis have avoided any of the bad luck that happened this year?

He beat him when points are added up but these guys race for results and the results show that Lewis won more races and finished ahead of Jenson in two of the three seasons. Lewis beat Jenson, although not as convincingly as I had hoped but the results this year don't tell the true gulf between their performances. Lewis really answered the critics this year and rightfully so we see praise for him throughout the paddock despite a very unlucky year.

Oh yeah, sorry. I meant to say "beat him in points total". Agree with what you're saying.

I predicted Hamilton would thrash Button at Mclaren. What is clear after 3 seasons is that Hamilton is on another level in terms of performance and talent, but as an overall package they are evenly matched. I still believe this was mostly down to Hamilton being on the end of more bad luck but over 3 seasons it should have balanced out. Hamilton has to share some responsibility in avoiding situations the way Button does. Button is a pretty good driver, better than I thought.

Agree with all of that.

Only thing I'd say is that, yes, it should have balanced out. But it didn't.

Extremely? Last year Button was the best of the rest and ahead of Lewis and Fernando in roughly (or exactly) comparable machinery. He also beat Webber in what was by far the best car. So exactly where would you put Jenson? If you put him in a lower tier, that means you think there are other drivers capable of beating Lewis over a season besides my top 5.

Not really, as I believe Hamilton's points are not a true representation of the performance gap. Regardless of that, I wasn't talking about that- I was talking about the forum wide polls that are done at the end of each season. Like it or not, it's a minority view, sorry.

Luck!!!! God I hope Perez fans take on everything isn't quite so simple.

Another guy crashing into him, after leaving him enough room, is not bad luck?

Ah but 3 years ago the consensus was that Hamilton would thrash Button at Mclaren. That hasn't happened, in fact Button has OUTSCORED Lewis over 3 years. So bollocks to the kids quite frankly.

Hamilton has thrashed Button this year.

It was hulks fault 100% but Hamilton was battling for position, trying to out brake him. What happens to cars on the Inside wet line? Seriously is backing off never an option even if it means staying in the race and eventually winning? There is no luck in this, Hamilton wasn't at fault but he could try harder to stay out of trouble. That's why this keeps happening.

So if it was 100% not Hamiltons fault, then why do you continue to imply blame with your 'thats why it keeps happening' statement? That is you assigning fault to Hamilton.

You are of course talking nonsense; Hamilton was very unlucky with the back markers, and then with Heikki being in that exact spot at that time, and then with Hulkenburg losing control of his car. The idea that Hamilton deserves the DNF is typical of you and a few other Button fans; desperate to try find any reason why the points total is representative of their performance.

How could Lewis have avoided any of the bad luck that happened this year?

Easy really.

He couldve made sure there was an extra litre of fuel in his car in q3 in Barcelona, He shouldve learned to change his own tyres in under 3.5 seconds consistently for the first 1/3 of the season, He shouldve taken his gearbox apart and verified nothing was going to fail in China and Singapore. He definitely shouldve known he was going to have fuel pump/pickup issues in Abu Dhabi, and shouldve had it replaced previously. He left some suspension bits loose in Korea and Japan and finally he didnt study enough at Hogwarts to magic Kovalainen out of the way when Hulkenburg was making a move on him. Thats not even all of it, but thats enough I think.

He couldve made sure there was an extra litre of fuel in his car in q3 in Barcelona, He shouldve learned to change his own tyres in under 3.5 seconds consistently for the first 1/3 of the season, He shouldve taken his gearbox apart and verified nothing was going to fail in China and Singapore. He definitely shouldve known he was going to have fuel pump/pickup issues in Abu Dhabi, and shouldve had it replaced previously. He left some suspension bits loose in Korea and Japan and finally he didnt study enough at Hogwarts to magic Kovalainen out of the way when Hulkenburg was making a move on him. Thats not even all of it, but thats enough I think.

Thats how.

Those are together quite difficult. It would have been easier/simpler if he'd polished his crystal ball, giving him clearing insight into the future, then all of those things mentioned could have been avoided, so at the end of the day it was his fault.

If you'd like to swing by my place, I've got every qualy and race this year recorded. This way, after you've actually WATCHED them, you'll see why your response beggars belief.

I fully agree that Hamilton is a better driver at the times among the two, no doubt. What just amuses me is a constant attempts to talk about some enormous difference between them, even when there is no.

I fully agree that Hamilton is a better driver at the times among the two, no doubt. What just amuses me is a constant attempts to talk about some enormous difference between them, even when there is no.

Again, don't you think there has been a big difference between them this year?

Crazy to think that even ignoring the litany of early season mistakes Hamilton would have still been right up there in the standings had the last three retirements from the lead not happened. Never seen anything like it really

I fully agree that Hamilton is a better driver at the times among the two, no doubt. What just amuses me is a constant attempts to talk about some enormous difference between them, even when there is no.

People are talking about an enormous performance difference in 2012, not an enormous points difference. If they were, you'd have a point; as it is, you just sound silly.

Again, don't you think there has been a big difference between them this year?

I think I'm done. They must either be blind or obtuse. Its very hard to wrap my head around it quite honestly. Its obvious that Hamilton has been impeccable on track this year, in a different league to Button most of the time. They won't admit it, they are too entrenched to let the truth influence them.

Again, don't you think there has been a big difference between them this year?

Who cares? I can easily make a poker face and say "Button has had a bad luck with set up in the mid season". Does it discribe the picture? No. That is what I'm trying to say - look at a bigger picture.

I don't think anybody is saying that 2011 was because of bad luck on Hamilton's part. If anything, we're all saying the same thing; he was the master of his own undoing back then.

But this season? Hamilton's issues have been out of his hands, hence the "bad luck" that everybody has attributed to him. But Button is a different story. If his pace issues were purely down to setup, then that's his problem and his alone. It's up to the driver to get the setup right, if we're to believe Hamilton's detractors after Spa qualifying and after Japan, even when it became apparent problem was actually a part that failed in FP and nobody noticed.