1. ...(we come from a visit to) Forrest[1]
township, to the house of Kanyemba. Do you know Kanyemba?
M: Kanimbo?F: No, Kanyemba.M: Kanyemba. I am not familiar with his house but I him I
know.F: He paints.M: Mm.F: He has a beard.M: Mm.F: Isn’t he also Lunda?M: Yes.F: He is the one (I mean).M: Yes.F: Kanyemba?M: Yes.F: And there we met with another (painter), his name is
Matchika.M: Matchika?F: Matchika/ He works as a painter.O: Laurent?F: Matchika Laurent.M: Laurent?O: Mm. He is a young man.M: What is his ethnic group?F: Tshokwe.O: Tshokwe.F: He comes from Dilolo.M: That one I don’t know yet.F: He also lives in Forrest township.M: Well, that place is far away. I would not go there regularly.

2. So, now about you.
M: Mm.F: did you begin with this work of painting some time ago?
Did you study it? Did you study painting, or?M: No, it’s a gift. Didn’t I explain this to you at
Makutano[2]?F: Yes, of course, but (tell me again).M: Mm. I studied in another section.F: [overlapping] I have been talking to so many people.M: Yes.F: That I start to forget, you understand?M: I studied in another section but then I didn’t make it
there, so I went on. Because I had little experience...F: [overlapping]...what section was that? In school?M: MmF: Here?M: Yes, that’s where I went to school.F: Here in the township?[3]M: Yes.F: Was that at this trade school?M: No, I went to the Athenée (high school) and then I
left.F: You left the Athenée?M: Mm.F: Dropping out of school?M: The money was too much for me. [chuckle]F: I see.M: That was when I began working for Citoyen Yav where I
still am. He hired me as a decorator, to write advertisements, bill boards,
all that. That’s what he hired me for, to do this at Gécamines.F: Advertising, I see. But at the very beginning, how did
you start out?M: That’s how I started[4]
out.F: Was that when you were still very young?M: As a child I had the gift (and did drawings) in copy
books.F: Mm.M: Just like that, but I had not started yet with this
(kind of painting).F: No.M: I just did stuff that pleased me. As my mind went into
that direction I ended up observing what my age mates did and so I went on
with it. I did not work with someone who showed me (how to do it). Just by
myself, with my ability.F: I see.M: Mm.F: (Without instruction) even at school?M: There was no one who taught me. I picked this up
myself. I began mixing colors and then I saw (what came of it).

3. F: What year were you born?
M: Fifty-one.F: Fifty-one?M: Yes.F: So now you are twenty...O: Twenty-three.F: Twenty-three?M: Twenty-three.F: Have you gotten married?M: Sorry?F: Have you gotten married?M: No.F: Not yet?M: I don’t have a wife.F: So you are still a bachelor.M: [laughs] I would have a wife if I met her.[5]F: I see.M: Yes.F: But in your ethnic group you don’t have to put up a lot
of money (for the bride price).M: No.F: Among the Lunda.M: True, but I must first look at my situation, because
life is hard.F: Yes, that’s right.M: Even though they may ask little, to meet the needs of a
wife here I must be well off.F: Mm. So now you live with relatives?M: Yes.F: Your parents?M: Well, they are uncles, on my father’s side.F: I see. M: My parent(s) don’t live here.F: They don’t live here.M: Mm.F: They live in the village?M: Mm. They live in the village.F: Where?M: Kapanga.F: In Kapanga?M: That’s very far.O: It is.F: We have been there.M: I see.F: In Kapanga.M: Yes. That’s where both my parents live. To this place I
came long ago (first staying) with an uncle in Lubumbashi, since sixty-three.F: So you came to town[6] in
sixty-three?M: Yes.F: In sixty-three? That was the beginning.M: Now I live...F: You stayed in Lubumbashi?M: In Lubumbashi. I left there in sixty-nine. In Lubumbashi I went to state primary school in Katuba township.F: I see.M: Then I began secondary state school in Kenia township.F: Ah.M: Yes. Nowadays it is called what? The name changed
[pauses], it’s some Athenée.F: Perhaps Athenée Maendeleo?M: Right, that’s the name here (in Kolwezi).F: Ah. M: Yes. It was there (in Lubumbashi) that I dropped out of
first or second grade. But then I left and came to this place where I settled
permanently.F: Mm.M: Yes.F: You find it agrees with you?M: Ah, this place is tolerable.

4. By then, when you were a child in Lubumbashi, had you
begun to paint?
M: At that time?F: Yes.M: I didn’t start painting, I began making drawings,
nothing much.F: Mm.M: (But) not painting in the sense of working with colors.F: So you really started only here in Kolwezi?M: Really only here.F: Mm.M: If had had some books...F: Mm.M: ...then I would have...F: Yes.M: What made me start (painting) was – for instance, for
Christmas day, people would ask me to work on the manger with them. So I
decorated the manger.F: I see.M: And then we would set it up, that sort of thing. But I
knew that kind of work wouldn’t get me anywhere.F: At the time, when you lived in Lubumbashi, did you
observe that there were many painters?M: I saw many painters, those that were at the Académie
des Beaux Arts, but I didn’t live close to them. What I saw, for instance,
was that in a house I went to I would come upon a beautiful picture that was
displayed there.F: Mm.M: I just looked at it.F: Mm. Do you know their names?M: Ah, not really.F: Not even some of them?M: Where, in Lubumbashi?F: Mm.M: No, I don’t know any. F: And here (in Kolwezi) are there many of you?M: Here?F: Mm.M: (You mean) decorators, artists?F: [overlapping] Decorators, artists.M: Ah, there are many of them.F: In the township?M: Yes.F: Who, for instance?M: There are the likes of Kabinda, and...F: ...Kabinda, is that his name?M: And the likes of Bonika[7],
I don’t know whether that is his name.F: This short person.M: Mm.F: An elderly gentleman?[8]M: There is Bonika, there is [pauses] let’s see...F: Bonika?M: Yes. There are the likes of Prosper, just a lot of
them.F: A lot of them, here in the township?M: Mm. F: And they all sell their paintings?M: Yes, they all sell them.F: What about you, how many would you sell.[9]M: (You are talking about) their paintings?F: Yes. About how many per month.M: Per month?F: Per month. Do you work every week or every month? No.M: Me?F: Yes.M: What I don’t have is (commissioned) work. I only work
like when you asked me to.F: Mm.M: Then I work. To paint and sell just on my own I don’t
have the time. My boss asks for many things.F: Mm.M: When he needs something he tells me, go and do this or
that for me.F: Mm.M: So, then I do it.F: Mm.M: But for myself I seldom paint. These paintings lying
around I am going to finish and sell them when they are done. In the meantime
I look for someone to place an order with me. Yes.F: In other words, painting these picture is not really
your work?M: It is my work but I have another job.F: Mm.

5. [interruption, a boy (or woman) telling something in
French]
M: [explains to me] The brother, the younger brother of
this one died in Lubumbashi. Madrandele.[10]F: That is the one?M: His younger brother, yes.F: He is the one?M: He is the one, yes.F: We have his younger brother, an assistant at our
university.[11]M: Well, this one here is someone else.F: Mm.M: This one is. He just arrived, he is...O: He works here.M: I don’t know what kind of work he does. He came (to
stay) with his relatives, people related to the Commissaire.F: Mm.M: But I don’t know about them giving him a job.F: Mm.M: Yes.F: Ah, I see. Now [pauses]...M: Regarding my work, I could say alright I’ll quit my job
and work only (as a painter), every day.F: What do you think you’ll do?M: Well, fact is that my job is slowing me down, with this
kind of work (painting) I can move ahead nicely.F: Mm.M: I produce a lot (paintings) and take them to a place
far away, to Zambia or another place far away and sell them.F: Mm.M: I would paint as many as a hundred (pictures) and sell
them. This is my work because it is something I know.F: Mm.M: Mm.

6. F: How does the work of an artist differ from other
kinds of work?
M: (You mean) this job I have?F: Mm.M: That – I work for little money, don’t I? And long
hours.F: Mm.M: While if I could do this work such that I produce many
pictures a day, painting every day, I would make a little profit.F: When it comes to selling, do you only paint pictures
you think up?M: Mm.F: (Making them up) yourself? Or do you have to paint what
people ask for? On order...M: Those here I did following only my own ideas.F: Mm.M: However, if you tell me, paint a certain kind picture
for me that’s what I’ll do.F: You’ll do it?M: Yes.F: You’ll just do it.M: Mm.F: Now, what do people ask for, what do the order mostly?M: Mostly?F: People who are, as it were, your customers. Do you have
customers here in the township?M: Yes. Yes.F: And they...M: Landscapes of every kind, especially pictures of Mamba
Muntu, that’s what they order. And then there is reproducing photographs. But
that is something I haven’t done yet for customers.F: Mm.M: I only did one of myself , as an advertisement, and put
it up in my house, it ended up being taken away.F: Mm.M: (I mean) reproduce a photo of myself.F: Like a face, a portrait.M: Mm. That’s it, a portrait.F: Mm.

7. And [pauses] do you meet with other artists?
M: Yes.F: For instance, do you...M: ...it has happened..F: Do you stay together in a group?M: Among friends, yes.F: Friends?M: Mm. When you do the same work you become friends. It’s
like [pauses] among soldiers.F: Mm.M: If they meet in the same place the become people of the
same kind.F: Mm.M: It’s a little like that among us artists, we know each
other. It may happen that you place a lot of orders with me. In that case I
say alright, since you tell me they should be done fast I am going to call on
my friend, together with him we work fast.F: At the moment you work by yourself, alone?M: Yes.F: Making the stretchers, you do everything?M: Everything. I have a saw and lumber for (that).F: Mm.M: I make them myself and also...F: ...frames.M: I don’t have a single person to help me.F: (How about) those canvases made from sacking...M: They are made of emb, from Gécamines. We salvage
them and they give them to us.F: I see.M: At the factory in Luilu.F: Emb?M: You see? [shows a canvas, noise of patting it]F: What is that?O: Pieces of canvas.F: That’s it.O: Maemba, maembe, [searching], maimbe
...[12]M: This is not cloth that will rot or tear soon.O: (It’s used) in a filter.M: Yes, in filtration at Kamoto.O: [In French] From Kamoto, these are This kind of material
used in filters.M: Right.F: But doesn’t it eat up a lot of paint?M: This one?F: Yes.O: It does.M: It eats up a lot of paint, true.F: Mm.M: But I like it.F: Mm.O: It’s strong.M: It is strong and it keeps well.O: Mm.M: That is to say, the kind of cloth called Marekani also
asks for a lot of paint. To look like this...F: Amerikani, that comes from (flower) sacks?M: Yes.F: Amerikani.O: Amerikani[13].M: That is needed for tube paints. Then it comes out like
(what you see) here.F: I see.M: Tube paints.F: Ah.M: So, this material here is fine, on it the colors come
out nicely.

8. Those artists whose only work is painting, how many
pictures per week must they paint (to survive)?
M: Every week? [pauses] You can do as many as five per
day.F: Per day?M: Per day, yes. If you have (commissioned work).F: Mm.M: Five, or four.F: Mm.M: Take me, I did those here in one day, didn’t I? you
told me[14]
(about the order) the day before yesterday.F: Ah.M: I painted three of them just last night.F: I see.M: I finished those and put them down so that, today, I
could apply – what is it called?F: Varnish.M: There you are, but not varnish, a color. I changed the
black with a little red.F: Ah, this was for the frame.M: So that it doesn’t get messed up right away.F: That’s it.M: If someone picks it up you may get dirty.F: That’s it.M: Mm. I could do those.F: Mm.M: Those five paintings (I mentioned) if I did not have a
job.F: And this...M: ...with the job – if I get off at three o’clock – I can do at least two or one per day.F: Mm.M: So, if I paint till the end of the week, I’ll do seven.
Especially on a Sunday, I’ll get a lot done.F: Mm.M: Yes.F: Yes, yes. And if you want to sell, would you be able to
sell everything you wanted to?M: Mm.F: You don’t have problems selling?M: There are no (problems).F: People buy everything?M: Yes, they may buy everything.F: But you have to move around quite a bit?M: Or I just exhibit them.F: Exhibiting – do you have exhibitions here? Where?M: Exhibitions are organized when there are painters who
produce a lot, here at Manika.F: Mm.M: There are those (who exhibit) at AMI,[15]or at the Manika (community center).F: Ah, we have seen those, yes.M: There you are. Without (the exhibitions) going around
(selling paintings) is a lot of work.F: Mm.M: You have to exhibit – a person comes around, looks at
(your work), and you’ll get lucky. But nowadays painters don’t exhibit a lot.F: Mm. M: Mm. I don’t know why. One day I saw a single piece exhibited
at Bon Marché.

9. F: Mm. Ah yes. But [pauses] do you find that people
nowadays buy more paintings than in the past?
M: Mm.F: Don’t you?M: Mm.F: Why is that? Is that now they begin to like (them)?M: They begin to know how to decorate a house.F: Is it about decorating a house?M: Ah, it is (part of) decorating a house.F: Mm.M: When a person comes (home) and sits down, his eyes like
to see beautiful things.F: Mm. Mm. [pause]M: That’s how it is.F: So then [trailing off], I see. I know, I observe
(this).

10. Well, now, [pauses] about knowing what is good and
what is bad in the work you do.
M: Mm.F: For instance, you have this other job as a house
painter, right?M: Yes.F: Your boss will look at your work (and say) this is good
work, that that is bad.M: [overlapping] ...or it is bad. Or I myself will know it
when I am working, telling myself, this one I messed up, so I fix it.F: Yes, but how are you going to know?M: Eh?F: To know...M: I’ll know, because I have the skills for working as a
painter.F: Mm.M: If I have those skills I can apply them. I see a spot
where there is something wrong with the color. The paint changed color
because something got mixed up...F: Mm.M: ...in painting. I’ll see it and tell myself, this I
didn’t do well. It’s...F: Yes, now, when people see your paintings.M: Mm.F: Do they say, ah those are by Muteba?M: Mm.F: Or rather Muteb.M: Mm.F: How would they know?M: Know what?F: Knowing in the sense of recognizing that they are
yours. You have your way of painting. You are different from Kabinda, from –
who else?M: I paint by myself. As to knowing (who I am), some day
they’ll come across my work (at a place) where I put it up, like you did at
Makutano. Was this not where you saw me?F: Mm.M: My signature. If someone buys a painting there you ask
him (about it).F: Mm.M: Saying, Muteba...F: ...have you found another customer because of those
paintings there?M: Ah, no.F: ...at Makutano?M: No.F: Only us.M: Only you.F: (We were) the first ones?M: Mm.F: I see. Did you do them some time ago?M: Those?F: Yes.M: Some time ago, in seventy-two.F: Seventy-two?M: Yes, that’s when I did them.F: That was the time when you started out?M: It was when I began working, that’s why I did them for
him.F: Ah, for the owner?M: Yes.

11. F: About – what was it again? Wait, I have to look
this up[16].
[pauses] There is still something left to ask. About the price we will come
to an agreement but first...
M: Mm.F: I need to know how you ordinarily sell (you paintings).M: Yes.F: To the local people, you understand?M: Yes.F: In other words, how much do you ask, for instance, for
the paintings we first saw there (at Makutano)M: Mm.F: For how much would you sell them?M: Those [claps] the ones on top?F: mm/M: (The ones) I did?F: (Selling them) here in the township.M: Here in the township?F: Yes, here. Tell me honestly, we’ll agree on the price
(we pay).M: Ah, yes. [chuckles] I know that. Here in the township I
can sell those painting for three Zaire.F: Three Zaire?M: [overlapping] And fifty Makuta.F: Those?M: Mm.F: Really? Come on, tell me honestly.M: Yes. I say three Zaire fifty. If (the customer) says no
he gives me three Zaire.F: They pay (that much)?M: Yes.F: That’s a lot.M: It’s a lot?F: Ah, for people in the township that’s a lot.M: Because there are many people?F: For the people it’s a lot.M: Paintings...F: ... in Lubumbashi they sell one painting starting at
forty Makuta.M: Forty Makuta?F: Then, one Zaire, one Zaire fifty, two Zaire, that’s a
lot.M: I see. But I haven’t noticed, I never saw a single
painter selling...F: Here (in Kolwezi) it’s the same.M: First of all, what I observed is that they start at two
Zaire, our fellow painters who do this work all the time.F: Mm.M: (Then) they raise (the price). Among the professionals,
those who really know (their business) they sell paintings even for twenty
Zaire a piece. I think you noticed.F: Ah, yes, the likes of Pilipili and...M: Ah, there you are.F: Yes, yes. No...M: But with this kind (of paintings) they start at two
Zaire.F: Two Zaire.M: Going up to four Zaire fifty.F: Yes, yes.M: Their prices differ a lot. There are some who...F: But...M: ... for instance, in your case, they’ll say no, he is
European, so (the painter) is going to set...F: ...yes, yes.M: ... the price (accordingly), he may usually sell at two
Zaire but...F: Yes.M: ...you are going to buy (the painting) for five Zaire.F: Yes, that’s something we know. But this is about me
knowing (what the going prices are).M: When I sell to a person, even if he happens to be an
African, I’ll show him the price (I mentioned).F: Yes, yes. No, it was only so that that we would know.
For instance, you talk about professionals.M: Mm.F: The ones who sell all the time.M: Mm.F: (With them) it’s one Zaire, one Zaire fifty. (I am
talking) about the ones that mass-produce Mamba Muntu pictures. Everyday they
do lots of themM: Mm.F: (Let’s say) six. Right? Those they keep selling at a
low price. Also, prices of paintings vary.M: Prices of paintings vary, yes.F: Why do they vary? [recording interrupted]M: Prices vary, for instance, depending on the work.F: Prices vary depending on the work?M: It’s the work. In my case, I am a craftsman.F: Mm.M: I have to know (what I am doing). First of all, how
many hours did the work take?F: Mm.M: Then, what is the idea behind a painting? Agreed, I can
do those Mamba Muntu pictures. If you need them I tell myself, fine. But even
so, it is something that isn’t popular.[17]F: Mm.M: If you sell something in large quantities you are going
to lower the price.F: Mm.M: But the thing you want is something with a good idea
behind it, (for instance) if you give me a small photograph of yours to
reproduce, I won’t ask a small price even though I paint a small picture.
Right?F: Mm.M: If what I show is your face exactly you are going to be
pleased, (saying) that’s it. It is a picture, not a photograph.F: Mm. Mm.M: That’s where the price varies. I look at this
photograph and say, alright, this is a good idea.F: Mm.M: So I put a different price on it. Sometimes, even
though I may paint a small picture, it asks for work.F: Mm.M: A lot (of work). Now, I may do a large picture, large
like the ones you see here, but it is something that is not going to ask for
a lot of work.F: Mm.M: Alright. I (make the price) follow the value of the
object made. What I consider is how did I do it?F: Mm.M: Is it decent (work) or not? That’s how it is.F: Mm.

12. F: Fine. Now, if it is alright with you, I’ll ask you
to explain to me the meaning of each picture.
M: The price?F: No, they...M: [overlapping] How I paint...F: ...the ideas you had when you began painting. [Aside to
O, in French] Help us a little with putting the paintings on the side.O: Yes. [paintings are moved] F: So then, this one first [more moving]. We won’t have a
good view of it.M: It doesn’t come out well?F: [more moving] No.M: The idea here is (to show) the first dawn, you see?F: Mm.M: The sun hasn’t come up yet, it’s dawning. There is a
mother who is leaving together with her child.F: Mm.M: (To go) to another village.F: Mm.M: She greets the village, sorry, she leaves a village,
very early in the morning, to go to [claps] the house of her relatives.F: Mm.M: So she wraps her child in this stuff made from the bark
of a certain tree.F: Mm.M: That’s it. This bark she prepared nicely.F: Mm.M: And then she wraps her child in it. That way, it may
rain or storm. She didn’t have cloth.F: Is that how you do it back home?M: [chuckles] In the old days.F: They used to do this long ago?M: Right, because there was not cloth to make a wrap from
and she found nothing else to gather the child in.F: Mm.M: She used this thing that helped to protect the child
from the sun, right?F: Mm.M: There you are. The child will feel neither the rain nor
a thunderstorm. This is why I did that painting. There it is, (the woman) set
out on a trip, no she is[18]
– close to arriving.F: And on her head she is carrying (something)?M: On her head she carries this – back home (we call it),
what is it again? I don’t know (the word) in Swahili. They make something
like a bagF: Mm.M: Alright, this is something the women put on when they
pound (manioc) flour.F: Mm.M: This is what they use.F: To ...?...[19]M: There you are.F: Mm.M: Then she puts flour in it to bring it to the relatives.F: Mm.M: Perhaps [trailing off] she meets them at ...?...F: That’s it.M: There you are, that is what this thing is used for.F: Yes.M: That was the idea I had for this picture.

13. Mm. Then we come to another (painting). It is...
M: ...that one you know already, don’t you? F: Yes, but tell me what it means...M: Explain it? [chuckles]F: Yes. [laughs]M: The explanation for this will be [goes to pick up the
painting]...F: When people ask for this one.M: Mm.F: What do they say?M: Mamba Muntu/F: Mamba Muntu, alright. Mm.M: Mamba Muntu is something we hear about but haven’t seen
yet. I explain this.F: Mm. M: Maybe there were sightings in the villages.F: Mm.M: As of now, it is something we hear about but haven’t
seen. What I hear (makes me ask) does Mamba Muntu exist or not? Is (what we
hear) true or not?F: We don’t know.M: You don’t know. [chuckles]F: We don’t know.M: And I...F: ...?...M: And I don’t know either. I painted one because you told
me to.F: Ah.M: Alright. Now what I hear is that her head is always
human whereas this part is fish.F: Fish, I see.M: Now, this human being behaves like a spirit, playing in
the water. Mm.F: And then there is the snake.M: She is never without that snake of hers. That’s what I
heard from fellow artists who do (this painting).F: Mm.M: She belongs with this snake of hers. She always goes
around with it. That sort of thing.F: That is what the snake means?M: Mm. She herself is a snake. As she is part human, part
fish, she is also a snake.F: Mm.M: That’s it. Now, I once asked about this snake, what is
it about? No, I was told, this snake is something she is used to and never
leaves, it’s like something she always puts on like a dress.F: Mm.M: Like she puts on a watch.F: A watch?M: Wherever she goes, (the snake) follows her. Mm.F: But the watch, what is the watch for?M: The watch?F: Yes.M: I shows here I am, a human being, I can do everything
that is human.F: I see.M: There you are. Everything a human being wears she’ll
wear too.F: I see.M: However, there, she must have everything that belongs
to a fish.F: And she lives in a river, or where?M: Here she is in the middle of a river, right? [points
out on the painting].F: Mm.M: Now, as you see, here in this place, there is something
like greenery (lit.leaves).F: Mm.M: She ...F: Mm.M: ...stays in the middle of those leaves, right? Not on
the side but in the middle.F: Mm.M: That’s her usual place. When she feels like leaving the
water, that’s where she goes to sleep and dream. That’s the way I paint her.
Others paint her (resting) in a dry spot.F: Mm.M: After she has come out of the water, to dream on dry
land. I paint her in the water.F: In the water.M: Because that is the place were she sleeps.F: Mm.M: She won’t go to dry land. That’s how I paint her.F: Something I notice all the time, the face of Mamba
Muntu is like that of a European lady.M: Yes, it is. But I also ask myself.F: Mm.M: I used to ask why? Those who talked to me would say, we
think Mamba Muntu is a spirit who belongs to Europeans.F: A spirit belonging to Europeans?M: Right. She is not one of our spirits.F: Mm.M: That’s why we paint her in your color, with your hair,
all that.F: I see.M: Yes.F: ...?...M: Because she is a spirit that belongs to you. You also
have spirits.F: I have a spirit.[20]M: And we, we have that kind, too, but they aren’t...F: ... now, do people consider her a dangerous spirit? Or
a good one, or what?M: Yes.F: She is dangerous?M: Well, she is not dangerous, but I never saw her.F: I see.M: I keep hearing that she is, but I never saw her.F: I see.M: She is a good (spirit) but you very seldom see her.F: Mm. Fine. M: If you catch her, if you see her, you may get lucky and
see good things [claps] happen in you life.F: Is she always a woman?M: Ah, always...F: ...(or sometimes) a man?M: She doesn’t dwell in a man, only (in) a woman.F: Mm.M: As I have heard some people tell, if you meet her
(wearing) that watch, or a ring, when she takes off that watch to bathe in
the water you take that thing and get away with it, right?F: Mm/M: Alright, then she’ll follow you to your house at night,
you understand? She’ll beg you to (ask) whatever you want for giving back to
her the thing of hers you took away.F: Mm.M: (Then) she’ll give you anything we ask her for, right
away.F: Mm.M: But you shouldn’t be afraid or anything. She’ll treat
you well.[21]
She says. I come for the thing you took away from me, you show it (lit. open
it) without fear. Then she’ll ask you, help me with that thing, I’ll give you
whatever you wish.F: Mm.M: If you tell her, this is what I want she’ll help you to
take it with you, something that will be worth more than anything you may ask
for.F: Mm.M: Mm. F: Now, when people ask for, when they order (this
painting).M: Mm.F: A Mamba Muntu.M: Mm.M: As you see it, what is it they want? What do they have
in mind?M: It is a picture.F: Mm.M: That comes with a surprise. Right? You are amazed. Is
it true that she exists or not? But, above all, it is something people buy in
order to prove there is someone who is like a snake who lives in the water.
It’s the truth. In a village they don’t see her, they don’t see pictures of
her.F: Mm. M: Only here (in town) we know about Mamba Muntu. Mamba
Muntu. Mm.F: Mm.M: They buy her because she is a beautiful picture, right?F: Mm.M: You see it and tell yourself, eh, she is a person and a
snake at the same time? It’s true, she exists.F: Mm. She is part human being (here) and there she is a
snake, or rather, a fish.F: Mm.M: Her lower part is in the water.F: Mm. [chuckles][22]M: Yes.

14. F: And then [picks up another painting] We have the
hippo.
M: Mm.F: A hippo [pauses], a hippo coming out (of the water).M: About the hippo. On that side there is a river.F: Mm.M: [in French] A river.F: Mm.M: Now the river is not visible, what you see above is the
sky, right?F: Mm.M: So, (the hippo) leaves the water to walk around, on dry
ground.F: Mm.M: At the place it comes to, all those birds are startled.
The bird is afraid, there is something, but it does not take to flight. It
takes a look and says, ah, it’s an animal. Because birds don’t usually flee
from that sort of animal. Only when it is a human being, then (a bird knows)
he is going to shoot at me. But when he sees an animal he tells himself,
that’s what it is, it comes to the dry ground to feed. In the end, it will
return to its place.

15. F: This kind of painting, is it a landscape or what is
it?
M: That one? No, it’s not a landscape. It’s not a
landscape. [pauses] The kind this painting belongs to.F: Mm.M: It’s like a Mamba Muntu.F: Like a Mamba Muntu?M: Right. It’s not a landscape. I think those others are
landscapes.F: Those others?M: Those.F: But what is the kind Mamba Muntu belongs to, what kind
of paintings are they? Just paintings, or?M: Ah, well, that we don’t know...?... because all the
things we call landscapes we lifted from books. You understand?F: Mm.M: But the things we paint for the pleasure of thinking
(about them) we cannot name. We do them just to do the thing itself.F: Mm.M: There you are. For example, if I decide, alright, I’ll
try to make a drawing of this church, is that a landscape?F: Mm.M: Is it a landscape?F: I don’t know, I ...M: [overlapping] I do...F: I am the one who is asking.M: I see. That’s how we do it, How I do it, (I shouldn’t
say) not how we do it. I do the picture.F: Mm.M: Because it is (like) a photograph, if it is displayed
in a house, people will regard it as beautiful.F: Mm.M: In the category of landscapes there are, for instance,
(paintings of) Kapolowe village, a lot of things like that, those are
landscapes. Since I did not study in this section (at school) I don’t know
how to distinguish them. But in a conversation I am bound to know what the
thing is I paint.F: Mm.

16. Now to the last one there, the one on the bottom.
M: The last one. [sound of steps, picking up painting]F: Mm.M: Would you like me to do a lot of paintings?F: Yes, sure.M: You told me before, thirty or forty, didn’t you? But I
don’t have them.F: Well, I don’t know about thirty of forty, let’s start
with what we got.M: Alright. Now, what I see (on this painting) is an animal.F: Mm.M; I don’t know his name, right?F: Mm.M: In Swahili. I would know it in
French.F: ...?...M: Sorry?F: Do you have them back home?M: Back home?F: Mm.M: I haven’t seen one yet.F: This one you saw...M: I saw it in a book, a deer.O: A fallow deer.M: No – a fallow deer, that’s it.O: Fallow deer, ...?...M: Alright. He comes out of the woods, of [in French] the
forest.F: Mm.M: It has come to kuvuka, so that he...F: ...kuvuka?M: To get on the other side of a stream.F: Ah, yes, yes.[23]M: This is a crossing.F: Mm.M: To get to this side where there is no forest but
savanna, to look for grass. They go into the forest to hide.F: Mm.M: When they sleep. Alright, so now it comes to the water
where it becomes aware of something. It is startled, there is something. This
takes it by surprise and it stops.F: I see.M: It doesn’t flee. And the man also looks at it, telling
himself, perhaps it doesn’t see me, I’ll get it with a spear.M: And (the deer) also sees him. That’s the moment of
surprise. One surprises the other and both are startled.F: Mm.M: (The man) was not prepared. We don’t know, is he going
to kill (the deer) or not. The way I painted it, the stream flows this way.F: I see.M: There you are. This is the place where (the deer) comes
out of the forest, that’s the idea.F: Mm.M: That’s [in French] the idea.

17. That is...
M: Now, is there another one left?F: Just this one. M: (That’s the one) that is left.F: Just this one.O: A bush fire.M: A bush fire.F: It may be a bush fire or...M: This sort of bush fire I have seen in our village.F: Mm.M: Alright, that is to say...O: The one on top comes first?[24]M: Ah, that one over there. (I am reserving it) because my
boss told me that it would remain his. I said alright, since he wants (a
painting like this) I’ll do one for him.F: Yes, yes, we’ll take the other one. Alright.O: That was the day before yesterday.M: That’s it. Alright, (here is the story). When the grass
dries up.F: Mm.M: There are animals in it. Now, the people there – you
see what one of them is carrying on his back, don’t you?F: Mm.M: [picks up the painting] It is grass, tied up (in bundle),
right?F: Mm.M: [noise, handling the painting] ...?...F: Yes, that’s alright, just stay there. So, they make a
grass bundle?M: They gather grass in a bundle, like this.F: Mm.M: Then they’ll set fire to it.F: Mm.M: Right? They set fire to it.F: Mm.M: You have one and I have one. Alright, we take some fire
and light (the bundle).M: You go to that side, right?O: Mm.M: An I go to this side here.F: Mm.M: Then there are people who follow us.F: Mm.M: You have your people (following you) in a line and I
have people (following me) in a line.F: Mm.M: I get to this place here – but first of all, I forgot
(to tell you) – as you see, we’ll move [points out on painting] to this side,
right? The one that was burned down before.O: Yes.M: They wait with the burning so that the animals don’t
flee. F: Mm.M; This is the part that is not going to be burned down
and that’s where the animals will flee to, telling themselves, here it has
burned already so let’s not run (further). [claps]. Days later we go there
again and begin where the leaves end, I go forward and you go forward,
carrying this thing here. Alright. I have a ...?..[25],
you have a ...?.... After five meters I leave someone there, with a torch.F: Mm.M: But not to burn down (the grass), just to stay there.
And then he moves like this, right? We go on like this and then we begin
here.F: Mm.M: We double up (lit. fold) like this.F: Mm.M: The moment we are going to meet each other over there
that’s when they give a signal and now we have the terrain completely
surrounded.F: Mm.M: We’ll [claps] signal them with torches because some of
them will be far away, as far as Kapata.F: Mm.M: Fine. As soon as this happens we won’t wait any longer.
You set fire, I set fire. Alright. So I set fire here and then I go back to
place where you were and I meet with the first man whom I had left behind.F: Mm.M: Fine. He also carries a torch, and so on. I left people
behind, in pairs.F: Mm.M; One comes out here, the other there, one moves here,
the other there, this one meets the other and that way the fire catches on at
once.F: Mm.M: After our first signal people started immediately. Then
[points out on painting] this one keeps it going.F: Mm.M: You understand? Once the fire is burning they cannot
follow (each other) any more, they stay in position. There are lots of
animals, close by and farther away.F: Mm.M: As soon as (an animal) sees the smoke it jumps up.F: Mm.M: And then (the hunter) who is staying there to guard
this part stops (the animal)F: Mm.M: Now, here are the ones that follow the fire. When the
fire reaches the middle, [emphasis] the very center.F: Mm.M: (The hunters) move like – how do you call it? – a whirlwind.
Then it’s for the people who did the burning, not standing guard or getting
close to the fire, to follow up. F: Mm.M: They get to the fire in the middle and that’s where all
the animals [claps] run away from it, right?F: Mm.M: (The animals) don’t know that there is fire over there,
too and when they get to it there is only one place to go.F: Mm.M: That is where (the hunters) will shoot them.F: Mm.M: Then those who came late, toward the evening, will join
them from behind.F: Mm.M: And all the birds are going to flee toward the center.
(The hunters) go after them until they get to the fire. That was my (idea)
because it something I observed.F: You saw this back home?M: Yes. I used to go home on vacation. But I did not go
with (the hunters). When I got there I did not work with them, I just
observed how they did it.F: Mm.M: (That was difficult) because they move really fast
there in the bush.F: Mm. M: One of them, even if he sets the fire, he goes on
whereas when I set a fire I just stay behind. So...F: [chuckles]M: I always got there too late. The others had already
picked up their animals.F: Mm. M: And their birds. I came to help but all I picked up was
this one bird. That’s how I know how they do it.

18. F: So, as an artist, is your task to paint the things
you have seen?
M: Yes. You have to paint something and what you have seen
will give you a good idea. Because you are my customer I explain it for you.
You understand, ah, that’s how it is. That’s how they do it in the villages.
During the dry season they go hunting with fire because there is a lot of
game in the countryside.[26]F: Mm.M: Mm. That’s it. Even an elephant they can kill there.
Once the fire has weakened him you just give him a shot with your gun and he
is dead. [claps]F: Mm.M: There you are.F: Fine, alright.M: It is something that you first take into your soul,
then you paint it.F: Taking it into your soul comes first?M: Taking it into your soul means that you tell yourself,
alright, what should I paint? Maybe I should do a man fighting with a lion.
Alright. So I think about it, how do they get into it? The hunter walks by,
the lion is in his place. Then they meet, the lion and he, the man. Then they
start fighting. There you are. It is me who conceives this idea. I know the
lion is not staying put. Alright. As they get into a fight the lion is going
to stand up.F: Mm.M: The man, too, is going to stand up. So I put (them) in
that pose and paint...F: Mm.M: ... the picture.F: Mm.M: There you are.

19. F: When you begin with a canvas do you first make a
pencil drawing as we have seen (some artists doing)?
M: Alright. To help me I’ll do a sketch. However, even if
I make a sketch with a pencil.F: Mm.M: You are not going to see anything, it will come out
nicely.F: Mm.M: Because this is what gives me and idea, this is what it
is going to be, its contours, that is, the fire will start here and end
there, fine. Or this is what the people will look like, I do a sketch. Then
it will be the painting that gives me a lot of inspiration.F: Mm. F: First I’ll paint the sky, then I paint [pauses] the
lower part.F: Mm.M: The ground. I leave the things between (for later
until) it dries. Then I do all the other places and let it dry. Then I paint
the leaves. In a picture like this, you see those trees, don’t you? They
aren’t wet[27],
right?F: No.M: They have dried.F: Mm.M: So, the colors of the leaves have changed.F: Mm.M: So that’s where I put (the paint). If, for example, the
trees were (still) green, I use this (shade of) green, right?F: Mm.M: Leaves that are green. Alright. Then I paint this
black, that makes them stand out. I put on the green here, that makes the
picture (complete). After that come the people, to show what the picture is
about. Even if I take my time painting everything, I can put them down later.
But first comes the sketch.F: Mm. Mm.M: Because it makes the work easier.

20. F: Alright, I think we have asked all our questions.
M: Yes.F: Unless there is something you want to ask me.M: Me (ask you)?F: Yes.M: [pauses] Well, I’ll ask you but right now there is nothing
urgent. Now, I’ll start (painting), are you going to order more when you
leave?F: We can leave another order.M: Yes.F: We can leave one.M: Because this gave me courage. Since you came I have
been confident, telling myself, no matter how many months it takes, he’ll
come back.F: Yes, we’ll be back. When I say I come back, I come
back. M: And what about him [pointing to O], does he live in Lubumbashi? F: He, this gentleman? He lives here.M: Here?O: It’s here...?...F: He is a boss there at Métalkat.M: That’s it. I always pass Métalkat on my way to work. So
we can get to know each other and if I know where lives he can give you frequent
reports.F: (We can stay in touch) also through the superiors he
knows, such as Mr. Dassas.M: I see, yes. F: (I mean the ones) Yav (knows).M: Yes, I see him (?Dassas) around at Métalkat.O: And once we met, citoyen.M: Right. What I am saying, if I know his place I’ll paint
and when the pictures accumulate he can make a call to Lubumbashi, saying
so-and-so has finished the work.O: Mm, that’s it.M: He brought it.F: Alright.M: Whatever picture comes to my head I’ll do for you.F: Mm/M: And I’ll also give you explanations.O: Mm.F: Agreed, baba. Now, how many (paintings) do we have
there, altogether?M: There are five.F: There are five?M: Yes.F: There are five.M: Mm.F: So let’s agree on the price.M: But every object has its own price.F: Every object has its own price?M: Yes, because...F: Every object. So we start with the bush fire.M: The bush fire?F: Mm.M: Alright. It’s three Zaire fifty.F: It’s three Zaire fifty?M: Well, yes. I put a reasonable price on it, not a lot,
right? It is something that took me a whole lot of work but it’s a matter of
trust.O: ...?...M: Ah, no this one, mm?F: Mm.M: That, too, is for three Zaire fifty/F: Three Zaire fifty.O: That make seven.F: Seven Zaire, right?M: Mm. This one I also showed you.F: Ah. Three Zaire fifty.O: (That makes) ten Zaire fifty.M: That one is three hundred (Makuta), even.O: Three Zaire. (That makes) thirteen Zaire fifty.F: Thirteen Zaire fifty, mm.M: That one is three hundred and fifty.O: [mumbling, adding] seventeen.F: Seventeen.O: Seventeen, all of them together.F: Seventeen?M: Yes, that’s good, right? It’s reasonable.F: Reasonable?M: Yes.F: Fine.M: But what about the pictures you’ll buy, do you like big
or small paintings?F: No, no (that’s not the point). What we like (doesn’t
matter). We are not like collectors.M: There you are.F: My work is not buying yours and then selling it again.M: Ah, yes.F: I explained this to you. The work we are going to do...M: ...yes, we talked about that.F: [overlapping] ...what I want to do is a study of all
the painters.M: I see.F: But in order to know how precisely they work I need to
have their paintings.M: There you are.F: Mm?M: Yes.
F: Its like..M: ...as you pick them up you pick up the idea, right?F: In the end, alright, mm, in the end we’ll be able to
write (about it), maybe even a book, saying, look, those are their thoughts. Look
how they work, look how they sell (their paintings).M: Mm.F: That is what...M: ...alright. First, write down your name for me, right?F: Mm, we’ll write it down.M: [noise of tearing off a piece of paper] Because we need
those names so I can always remember them.F: Yes.M: Don’t you have a pen?F: Aah, I had one.O: Wait [noises of search for a pen].F: ...?... we’ll look for one. I think I have one in my
car.M: I have another pen...?..F: Yes, yes. [recording ends]

Notes

[1] A
squatters’ town outside Kolwezi, named after a prominent (and recently
notorious) family of entrepreneurs (see http://www.egmforrest.com/uk/histo.html).

[2] Makutano was a bar-restaurant in Manika township, owned by a certain Yav (see
below), where I first met Muteb and saw painting of his (as far as I remember
these were images of dishes served there).

[3] The former Centre Extracoutumier, the official African township) of Kolwezi. At the time of our conversation it was commonly called cité, officially
Zone Manika.

[9] By
mistake I say utauza, you will buy, instead of utauzisha, you
will sell, which confuses Muteb.

[10] Perhaps this refers to Avenue Madrandele in Lubumbashi, named after a prominent
politician, but see below.

[11] I
no longer remember the person but he must have been a relative of Madrandele
Tanzi, a high party official under Mobutu.

[12] The term O is searching for could be embwe, “a kind of gum or glue,”
according to the Standard Dictionary. I don’t recall hearing the term in Shaba
Swahili but it would fit. Muteb used a heavy, rubberized material, discarded
after being used in so-called filter-presses, a stage in the production of
copper or zinc by electrolysis. The material seems inestructible but it is
probably full of noxious residue and ill suited as a canvas for painting.

[13]Amerikani
is an old Swahili term for calico (cotton) cloth, originally imported from
North America..

[15] AMI (Agence Maritime Internationale, I believe) was a shipping agency with an
office in Kolwezi. Manika, officially Cercle Manika, was a social center in
town.

[16] What I say and the noise I make suggest that I had to consult notes at this
point. I have not recollection of this (or of using a written list of questions
in any of the conversations with painters).

[17] Muteb says impopulaire but the context suggest that he means the
opposite

[18] At this point ,the transcript is marked “antiphonal,” indicating that Muteb
follows the intonation pattern of a story-teller: the tone rises, then the
speaker stops, and the audience completes the sentence. I have met other
speakers who employ this call-and-response pattern even with an audience of
one.

[19] I
was searching for a verb (probably for wrapping or folding) and came up with kunyungulula.
Muteb seems to know it but I don’t recall its use in Katanga Swahili, nor can I
find it the Standard Dictionary.

[20] I
don’t remember why I responded in the singular instead of saying tuko na
bazimu, we have spirits.

[21] Muteb says atakonkola, which I read (in Standard Swahili) as atakuogoa,
she will deliver (it) to you.

[23] I
did not know the verb kuvuka but then got the meaning from the picture.

[24] I
don’t know what O means, perhaps that it comes after the painting we discussed
first. In fact, in the description of a hunt that follows, in which Muteb
constantly refers to what he remembers seeing while at the same time pointing
again and again to items in the painting before us, translation of indexical
speech is tested to its limits. I tried my best but the overall account remains
confusing.