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Re: final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

Duniak

1. You say we don't know about Urahara's Bankai? Do you know about Aizen's Bankai? Or do you know about Yama's Bankai? Yama's Bankai alone seemed to be enough to destroy SS with all the Captains who were there and this Bankai now belongs who the guy who was actually able to take down base Yama who seemed to be stronger in base than base Aizen... So no way Urahara's Bankai would make that much of a differense.

1. Do we even know, that Kyoka Suigetsu wasn't Aizen's Bankai? He used its' name plenty of times, but he wouldn't have to if he had bankai and it was shikai, right? Do we know if Aizen actually HAD bankai? Nothing indicates he had. Despite being hopeless against Ichigo he still didn't use it. Or he didn't have anything more than those illusions. Yama's bankai wasn't so impressive. Not much of an ability type. Just raw power. Shinji's Shikai could make everything reverse. His bankai? Who knows. Urahara's Shikai has nice abilities and, as we've seen, he can create similar attacks with his Zanpakuto. Maybe it's his sword's ability, not his. He sees Getsuga once, he can shoot something similar against Ulqiorra's Cero. Maybe he can copy pretty much everything.

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2. So what? Yoruichi's fits aren't that impressive. She was a bit faster than Soifong and a bit faster than Byakuya, but the same Aizen made a fodder treatment of Soi Fong and many other Captains who seemed stronger than Yoruichi. Also Yoruichi isn't the best in hand-to-hand combat. The same Yama or Tessai seem to be way higher in that department.

2. Urahara was on par with her, when she was at her BEST 100 years ago. As a noble, her abilities were considered SUPERIOR to everyone else's. You have no proof, that Yama or Tessai is in higher tier when it comes to hand to hand combat. She could crack Aizen's armor with her fists. She could mop the floor with unreleased Yammy without breakin' a sweat. Of course, she got hurt, because she didn't even use Shunko. Just bare hands. Ichigo would run like hell, if he didn't have his zanpakuto. So Yamaji could have TRASHED Hogyoku Aizen with his fists?

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3. Again... It's Shounen manga! Here intellect doesn't play that much of a role to be a desisive factor. Aizen was intelligent, but he was strong enough to be able to take down practically entire Gotei in Shikai-Bankai in just his base form... Also Urahara's intellect lies only in the field of inventions. Aizen seems to be better in terms of planning and tactics.

3. Intelligence doesn't play that much of a role? No, it does. Aizen's existence is one huge scheme. Everything what happened in Bleach so far is somehow connected to Aizen and Urahara.

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4. Well, Isshin seems to be able to do the same as well. The same way as Yama and Tessai is obviously better than Urahara in Kidou...

4. Those baseless assumptions are pissing me off.. Isshin using his OWN kidos? Any proof? Yamaji and Tessai OBVIOUSLY BETTER in Kidou? ANY proof? Why didn't Yama use same techniques as Urahara did? Anything similar? Or was he too stupid to do so?

Tessai didn't even lift a finger in this fight. Why?

Don't go throwing random thoughts without anything to prove... Those are just baseless assumptions. Urahara is himself one HUGE mystery. We don't know his power level. We don't know his zan's ability. We don't know anything.

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5. Well, Kubo stated himself that Shunsui could do the same thing Ichigo did against Hougioku Aizen with his Bankai, but it wasn't his role to do it, but Ichigo's. Does it make him fit to be the final villain? Also Aizen didn't want to dodge any Urahara's attack. He wanted to test his new form. He wouldn't have done it, when he was a normal Shinigami. Urahara himself stated it.

5. Hogyoku Aizen? Show me where you read that. I read only about Kyoraku being able to kill pre-hogyoku Aizen with his bankai. To kill Aizen you need something outrageously powerful to wound him enough for Hogyoku not to heal him. And Shunsui ISN'T power type. His power comes from intelligence and Zan's abilities.

And if Aizen hadn't been fused with Hogyoku, he would have been outsmarted by Urahara. And he wouldn't have been able to break free from 3 or 4 Bakudos. Aaaand, he wouldn't have been so strong and fast, so he would have been easier to catch.

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So it doesn't make Urahara strong... Not even close to high tier Captains. The same Urahara in his Shikai couldn't do anything against Base Ulquiorra, while Aizen could have taken entire Espada down by himself. His Reiatsu was so strong that he made Grimjaw fall on his knees infont of him... Compare the differense.

Oh, Urahara couldn't do ANYTHING? You're funny. He launched ONE attack, didn't even start to get serious, didn't use Kido, that is shown as his trump card, and you're saying he couldn't do ANYTHING? xD

Re: final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

Somebody Else: None I can really think of...

Juhabach: Too obvious. He's an major antagonist for sure, but he's hinted himself that he may not be the true enemy (i.e. final antagonist). Furthermore, I don't think the final antagonist should be an enemy that's only recently been introduced.

Aizen: He's one of my favourites to be the final antagonist, as he's been well-established as a complete-and-utter evil prick! Then again, he's also shown some weaknesses in his character when he underwent the evolutionary changes via the Hougyoko, so he might not be stable enough to be the final antagonist; at this time, I'm guessing he's going to be either a penultimate antagonist, or even maybe lower.

Soul King: So much mystery has been associated with the Soul King, and it's been hinted that he might not necessarily be good, but it doesn't make sense for the Soul King to be the final antagonist. For one, he's only just shown his face (but I may be wrong, as his 'presence' has been felt for a long time) so I don't think he will be for the same reason as Juhabach. Secondly, why now? To me, the only reason the Soul King would decide to destroy everything after so long is either he has a change of heart for some reason, or he's controlled by somebody like a puppet. Personally, with his recent introduction and similar appearance to Aizen, I think the Soul King and Aizen will nearly destroy each other in a penultimate battle and then...

Urahara: Steps in and finishes them both off!!! Urahara, to me, would make a perfect final antagonist. As I mentioned in this week's spoiler discussion (Chapter 519), my theory is that Urahara and Aizen have actually been working together; they could have both worked together on the final Hougyoko (it's too much of a coincidence for 2 people to work on the same technology at the same time and call it the same thing!), and Urahara could have easily tricked us when he 'sealed' away Butterflaizen. Also, as I mentioned, Urahara seems to have a quirky nature that would permit him to act without reason (as opposed to Aizen, who acted because he didn't believe in being subjugated by the Soul King); think back to when Ichigo was training with him after first gained his own Shinigami powers; one minute Urahara was acting friendly and wasn't being serious at all, and the next minute he looked as though he was actually intending to kill Ichigo!!! IMO, Urahara exhibits behaviours suggesting that he might even have a split personality!!! He wouldn't want to destroy everything for any reason; he'd simply do it out of his impulses!!!

Predictions

Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.

Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.

Re: final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

Originally Posted by Lee.J.Baxter

one minute Urahara was acting friendly and wasn't being serious at all, and the next minute he looked as though he was actually intending to kill Ichigo!!! IMO, Urahara exhibits behaviours suggesting that he might even have a split personality!!! He wouldn't want to destroy everything for any reason; he'd simply do it out of his impulses!!!

Switching personalities on his will indicates, that he has very STABLE personality. Not split at all. He was serious to train Ichigo. He is serious when it counts. He is carefree to show he is NOT serious and shy, as he was in Pendulum arc.

Re: final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

Originally Posted by Lee.J.Baxter

Also, as I mentioned, Urahara seems to have a quirky nature that would permit him to act without reason (as opposed to Aizen, who acted because he didn't believe in being subjugated by the Soul King); think back to when Ichigo was training with him after first gained his own Shinigami powers; one minute Urahara was acting friendly and wasn't being serious at all, and the next minute he looked as though he was actually intending to kill Ichigo!!! IMO, Urahara exhibits behaviours suggesting that he might even have a split personality!!! He wouldn't want to destroy everything for any reason; he'd simply do it out of his impulses!!!

its got nothing to do with the split personality thing imo...its just shades of his nature...he is somewhat like isshin or kirinji...one moment he acts all easy going and like a dumbass but then he gets serious sometimes... although this is the trait found in the most badass characters in bleach...

i have a hunch that what happened with aizen was an experiment by urahara... ofc urahara would have hougyoku but it didnt work out coz it was not complete...but later on aizen almost perfected it...urahara experiment was successful and now he can come up with much more advance and perfect hougyoku...which will be almost like soul king's power level...

Re: final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

I think it's Soul King assuming he has the most power in the series. Urahara said he was the lynchpin and basically implied the universe would implode if somethign happened to him.

What I don't get is why didn't Aizen wait to become a Royal Guard himself to make a move?

I think Juha and the Quincy plan on fighting Soul King and will fail miserably either because of Ichigo and Urahara or because Soul King himself won't go down easily.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Aizen needed spirit land and a hundred thousand souls to perform whatever technique is required to either create a royal guard or make himself into one. The Royal Guard mentioned that they got the key from the Soul King. Does that IMPLY: Soul King > Aizen + all the souls of Karakura Town for what may be a basic technique?

Re: final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

I personally don't believe Juha Bach is the final enemy, but I do think it might be someone we have never seen before. Whoever Isshin used his version of FGT on is probably still alive. That individual maybe the one feeding information on Soul Society to the Vandenreich, and I do believe that they have an inside source. Their information is just to good, and I doubt they could of come up with a Bankai stealing device on their own no matter how long they have been planning their revenge, especially if they had no one to test it on to see if it would work. If Urahara becomes an enemy I don't believe anyone besides the Soul King would be able to stand up to him, he is even more dangerous then the Shinigami version of Aizen.

Re: final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

Probably Bach. He killed Yamamoto and took his Bankai, and he's been built up to be more evil than Aizen. Then Haschwald stepped in to fight Ichigo, so there are other opponents for Ichigo to fight before he gets to challenge Bach again.

Urahara's not a bad guy, though. We've already seen that he does shady things, but for good intentions (like hiding the Hogyoku inside Rukia). And the Spirit King may be doing/have done some shady things, too, but will have an understandable reason for doing so. That's how things seem to go in Bleach, anyway.

Re: final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

Originally Posted by Cyrs

Urahara's not a bad guy, though. We've already seen that he does shady things, but for good intentions (like hiding the Hogyoku inside Rukia). And the Spirit King may be doing/have done some shady things, too, but will have an understandable reason for doing so. That's how things seem to go in Bleach, anyway.

Every 'antagonist' in Bleach has an understandable reason for doing whatever necessary. Bach IMO feels that shinigami have failed to fulfill their role, becoming corrupt and weak, and intends to take over that, killing hollows and possibly somehow helping souls move over (seeing as quincies can go to SS easily, that wouldn't be the biggest obstacle).
SS is not even the good side in this war. The good side is Ichigo, who doesn't care about reasons, but wants to protect his friends, regardless of whom from. Originally, it was portrayed as utterly evil, starting with Kon and the mod soul story, and also showing how almost everyone defended the order to execute Rukia, despite the ridiculousness of the order; FB arc further supported that.

Still, I pretty much agree with Bach being the main antagonist because he's been built up like that well in the few chapters since his introduction.

Re: final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

Originally Posted by 0Xellos

Every 'antagonist' in Bleach has an understandable reason for doing whatever necessary. Bach IMO feels that shinigami have failed to fulfill their role, becoming corrupt and weak, and intends to take over that, killing hollows and possibly somehow helping souls move over (seeing as quincies can go to SS easily, that wouldn't be the biggest obstacle).
SS is not even the good side in this war. The good side is Ichigo, who doesn't care about reasons, but wants to protect his friends, regardless of whom from. Originally, it was portrayed as utterly evil, starting with Kon and the mod soul story, and also showing how almost everyone defended the order to execute Rukia, despite the ridiculousness of the order; FB arc further supported that.

Still, I pretty much agree with Bach being the main antagonist because he's been built up like that well in the few chapters since his introduction.

Right, I totally agree.

The Quincies were massacred by the Shinigami, so yeah, they do have an understandable reason too. I think we're just saying the same thing, that Bach has been built up to be the antagonist. And his "reason" for doing bad things (murdering everyone in Soul Society) is a little more evil than Urahara's, for example (hiding the Hogyoku inside Rukia). Of course, there could be more revelations down the line. But again, Bach's been built up this much, so I'm assuming he's the "final boss."

Re: final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

Originally Posted by Cyrs

Right, I totally agree.

The Quincies were massacred by the Shinigami, so yeah, they do have an understandable reason too. I think we're just saying the same thing, that Bach has been built up to be the antagonist. And his "reason" for doing bad things (murdering everyone in Soul Society) is a little more evil than Urahara's, for example (hiding the Hogyoku inside Rukia). Of course, there could be more revelations down the line. But again, Bach's been built up this much, so I'm assuming he's the "final boss."

or he could be just a tool to upgrade some character... making bach uberly strong and then he being defeated by someone (maybe kenpachi or shunsui or ukitake) can be used to upgrade someone to that level so that the upgraded character can face someone much stronger...i think we might be dealing in transcedentals levels in this arc a lot...since squad 0 members are big deal...so they need super strong challengers to fight them...

imagine a healer who owns soi fong in speed....a milf who created mod souls....crazy 4 eyed guy who created zanpakutos...bald monk who created kido (maybe) and 6 armed hottie who can move around and collect people across SS in an instant...on top of that they can further be upgraded by soul king who himself seems like a transcedental entity...till now i have not encountered a single quincy who can live upto the challenge of defeating them...unless some super strong quincies join the fray i dont see the scenario where JB can be the final villian...

JB and other strong people can just be a platform to prepare stronger individuals who can participate in the final fights which are going to be on a scale as big as FGT ichigo vs butterfly aizen or maybe more..

Re: final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

Originally Posted by dex

or he could be just a tool to upgrade some character... making bach uberly strong and then he being defeated by someone (maybe kenpachi or shunsui or ukitake) can be used to upgrade someone to that level so that the upgraded character can face someone much stronger...i think we might be dealing in transcedentals levels in this arc a lot...since squad 0 members are big deal...so they need super strong challengers to fight them...

imagine a healer who owns soi fong in speed....a milf who created mod souls....crazy 4 eyed guy who created zanpakutos...bald monk who created kido (maybe) and 6 armed hottie who can move around and collect people across SS in an instant...on top of that they can further be upgraded by soul king who himself seems like a transcedental entity...till now i have not encountered a single quincy who can live upto the challenge of defeating them...unless some super strong quincies join the fray i dont see the scenario where JB can be the final villian...

JB and other strong people can just be a platform to prepare stronger individuals who can participate in the final fights which are going to be on a scale as big as FGT ichigo vs butterfly aizen or maybe more..

Yeah that is possible, but I just don't see that happening anymore. We don't have evidence to overturn the conclusion that Yamamoto is the strongest Shinigami (bar Butterfly-Aizen and FGT-Ichigo). Combined, the Zero Division may be stronger than Yama, but nothing clearly shows they are individually stronger.

Bach now has Yama's Bankai, the Bankai of the most powerful Zanpaktou. He was also able to cut down Yama quite effortlessly. Also, his Sternritter now have the Bankais of many captains, as well as being incredibly formidable opponents. So the Zero Division is needed in order to oppose the Quincy at this point. And Ichigo is needed at maximum power in order to stand up to Bach now. In fact, he'll probably need a power-up.

I also don't see the Spirit King being a fighter, since he apparently needs the Zero Division for protection. I could be wrong of course, but that's how things are looking to me, at the moment.

Re: final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

Originally Posted by Cyrs

Yeah that is possible, but I just don't see that happening anymore. We don't have evidence to overturn the conclusion that Yamamoto is the strongest Shinigami (bar Butterfly-Aizen and FGT-Ichigo). Combined, the Zero Division may be stronger than Yama, but nothing clearly shows they are individually stronger.

but we still dont know about zero squad abilities...5 people surpass whole gotei 13 in power....so i can safely assume that they are strong...and my only point is that the squad 0 is uniquely strong like aizen based on ability and talents based like urahara... so we still cannot anticipate their original strength...

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Bach now has Yama's Bankai, the Bankai of the most powerful Zanpaktou. He was also able to cut down Yama quite effortlessly. Also, his Sternritter now have the Bankais of many captains, as well as being incredibly formidable opponents. So the Zero Division is needed in order to oppose the Quincy at this point. And Ichigo is needed at maximum power in order to stand up to Bach now. In fact, he'll probably need a power-up.

as far as zan is concerned Oetsu guy owns it...he is the creator of zanpakuto....so i wont be surprised if he has some ability to totally negate zan's power...also the bankai's power is reduced when someone else uses it (like sasakibe's bankai) ....and im talking about transcedental level fights...in which even aizen will have trouble...upgraded kenpachi will face problems... hybrid ichigo will get cut...so here im talking about final and most important fights in bleach final arc...those cannot be compared to normal captain bankais...

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I also don't see the Spirit King being a fighter, since he apparently needs the Zero Division for protection. I could be wrong of course, but that's how things are looking to me, at the moment.

a king can be strongest yet he has a council... yamaji was strongest in g13 yet there was g13... having squad 0 for protection does not imply that spirit king is not strong...

i know this all is hypothetical but some part of me wants this to happen...just a wishful thinking

Re: Final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

Bach has all the makings of the final antagonist; Vast amount of power, long running history with SS, sizeable army of top notch warriors and hints of some connection with Ichigo. But at the same time I have a feeling some other faction is going to come along. As much as I liked Aizen's run as Big Bad, I wouldn't mind him taking a back seat now. I'm glad he's still relevant to the story (at least I hope he will be), but I'm not so sure Kubo's going to return him to the top spot. It just feels like it would be taking a step backwards.

I think the thing with the Vandenreich is that they had none of the build up Aizen did. Something about that makes them seem less important in a way, which I suppose is what gives me the feeling some other antagonist is going to step into the picture. Still, I'm excited to see more of Bach and the Quincy.