wow. thousands of pounds of dirt washed away and onto the routes (that would be difference between bottom and top - its called gravity), topsoil gone, trees die, looks like a shit show, but the bolts burn YOUR eyes? serious white people problems.

easy there killah... he is entitled to his opinion and it was at least coherently expressed in a thoughtful way. And lets not kid ourselves most any problem involving climbing is a white people problem in the US.

easy there kill... he is entitled to his opinion and it was at least coherently expressed in a thoughtful way. And lets not kid ourselves most any problem involving climbing is a white people problem in the US.

Haha, totally. If there were to be a free and open vote with a strong participation on the subject and it was decided to bolt the cliff then that's ok with me (democracy is the best we got) but to pretend there's a strong consensus when there hasn't been is just posturing.

What's most hilarious about these threads is that people seem to be seeking and needing justification for bolting. It's a free country and if you feel like taking the time, energy and money to bolt something and bolting isn't against the law then shut the fuck up and do it already! Just don't expect everyone to fall in line behind you or agree on your reasoning. In addition be prepared to defend your actions amongst your community and land managers. Also try not to act surprised when someone who disagrees with you chops your bolts because it might happen.

Haha, totally. If there were to be a free and open vote with a strong participation on the subject and it was decided to bolt the cliff then that's ok with me (democracy is the best we got) but to pretend there's a strong consensus when there hasn't been is just posturing. What's most hilarious about these threads is that people seem to be seeking and needing justification for bolting. It's a free country and if you feel like taking the time, energy and money to bolt something and bolting isn't against the law then shut the fuck up and do it already! Just don't expect everyone to fall in line behind you or agree on your reasoning. In addition be prepared to defend your actions amongst your community and land managers. Also try not to act surprised when someone who disagrees with you chops your bolts because it might happen.

I think gaining a consensus in CT in a general sense is pretty easy due to the limited number of climbers and locations so it's fairly easy to communicate across generations and local communities. If you spend enough time climbing around CT you will meet just about everyone pretty quickly. And your shut the front door comment is exactly what has happened in CT. Folks are going out, in a sometimes somewhat grey area legally speaking, and doing as they please but there is consensus and discussion amongst those doing it about how to go about it. Mixed lines where possible and no previously done trad routes (kinda of a common sense approach). A mix of trad and bolts gets you a great experience with risk but takes the X/R factors out that might I add could easily close a place here in CT if something ever happened.

Hahaha! Wrong. You can still take plenty big whippers in sport climbing. The thought that sport climbing is "safe" is laughable.

I think this depends on your definition of safe. For me, safe means I can far pretty far (to give a hard number, let's say >10 ft), and not get anything worse than a bruise or a scrape. I'd say that describes 95% of the sport climbs that I have personally done (not including the climb to the first bolt, obviously).

No you're right, I don't know what the community consensus is in CT. Thus, the question, as it did seem (only from what I've read so far in the thread) that the consensus was TR if possible in some areas. I'm just curious if by community you mean 'my small group of friends/followers and I' or you mean a large chunk of experienced, local climbers (say, >50%).

I'd bet that 75% of the experienced climber in CT would applaud the bolting of unprotected routes in CT.

To be honest it doesn't really matter, anti-bolting terrorism has been forced on us since the late 70's/early 80's and I'm tired of it.

its moves it from a living to a non-living thing. one of those is more important... ya thing? and we arent talking about bolting every route under the sun. A few smartly placed anchor on poorly protectable sections, and TR anchors on the more popular climbs.

Overall, I don't think I will ever understand why we have to dumb everything down all the time. There are plenty of climbs out there that had they been bolted I could have done but I wasn't good enough to do on gear so I just went on to another climb I could do. If I thought the whole thing was about "sick whippers" and pulling down I would have gotten bored a long time ago. People who clip up something that could have been done on gear are simply robbing themselves of an experience to remember and leaving in its place just another "tick" on MP.

I agree with KN's philosophy but I think it's obvious that his actions have done his cause a disservice. Had he taken more time to educate people on that philosophy I think he may have had better luck. If some sporto were to bolt a climb I've done on gear I wouldn't be offended, I'd be flattered, and I would be sure to remind everyone who clips their way up it what a big fucking pussy they are, good-naturedly of course. So as long as they can handle that and not let their ego interfere, I say godspeed.

Yep entertaining for sure. And somewhat enlightening for those who missed out on the bold wars of the 90's.

I remember hearing about KN back in the day. Even as a trad climber his actions seemed extreme at the time.

In the early days a climber could build their reputation by putting up routes that others found to scary to repeat. Seems like now a days climbers build their rep by putting up routes that everyone can jump on and at least safely try.

In the end it still seems to boil down to ego boosting.

Back in the day. Climber A was considered bad ass for putting up bold routes. Today climber B is considered bad ass for putting up routes for the community.

Either way the climber gets the ego boost of having his or her peers acknowledgment. To think that the 5.14 climber putting up 5.9's for the community doesn't get an ego boost seems to be misguided. And back then a climber certainly was acknowledged for their boldness.

Overall, I don't think I will ever understand why we have to dumb everything down all the time. There are plenty of climbs out there that had they been bolted I could have done but I wasn't good enough to do on gear so I just went on to another climb I could do. If I thought the whole thing was about "sick whippers" and pulling down I would have gotten bored a long time ago. People who clip up something that could have been done on gear are simply robbing themselves of an experience to remember and leaving in its place just another "tick" on MP. I agree with KN's philosophy but I think it's obvious that his actions have done his cause a disservice. Had he taken more time to educate people on that philosophy I think he may have had better luck. If some sporto were to bolt a climb I've done on gear I wouldn't be offended, I'd be flattered, and I would be sure to remind everyone who clips their way up it what a big fucking pussy they are, good-naturedly of course. So as long as they can handle that and not let their ego interfere, I say godspeed.

1. nobody is talking about bolting anything that's been done on gear.

2. You agree with chopping other peoples areas in states that you don't even live in?really?

1. nobody is talking about bolting anything that's been done on gear. 2. You agree with chopping other peoples areas in states that you don't even live in?really? 3. The really funny thing is that YOU SPORT CLIMB LOL!

Dude, you are way behind the conversation, try and catch up. Nobody is talking about bolting routes done on gear, good keep it that way. I have never advocated chopping, never have never will, it solves nothing. I'm just saying it happens so don't cry me a river if it does. Yep, I sport climb routes that are not TR'able and have 0% chance of going on gear, that's what bolting is for. Plus, it's good training for real climbing ;)

It's okay, we know you don't from your posts here... Maybe some underlying aspects of it... but it doesn't sound like you'd ever show up to the most popular crag in your state and apply a crowbar to holds on one of the best routes.

"I agree with KN's philosophy but I think it's obvious that his actions have done his cause a disservice. Had he taken more time to educate people on that philosophy I think he may have had better luck. If some sporto were to bolt a climb I've done on gear I wouldn't be offended, I'd be flattered, and I would be sure to remind everyone who clips their way up it what a big fucking pussy they are, good-naturedly of course. So as long as they can handle that and not let their ego interfere, I say godspeed."

It's okay, we know you don't from your posts here... Maybe some underlying aspects of it... but it doesn't sound like you'd ever show up to the most popular crag in your state and apply a crowbar to holds on one of the best routes.

I agree with his philosophy but not his actions. If you can find some old Climbing mags with KN letters to the editor, he articulates some decent arguments but over time he just totally lost it and started smashing things.

"People who clip up something that could have been done on gear are simply robbing themselves of an experience to remember and leaving in its place just another "tick" on MP." one of the most egotistically, ignorant things i've read...so absurd...

I think you need to do some dictionary reading and stop tossing out negative words you don't know the meaning of. How is my statement egotistical or ignorant?

A dictionary...yeah, i might have to purchase one...in the mean time, i will just keep reading your posts, perhaps i will learn the true meaning of the word, negative. But hey, probably not...i'm just a pussy sporto who doesn't know the true meaning of climbing...i've been doing it wrong this whole time. Thank you for your inspiration and incredible insights. Namaste.

I agree with his philosophy but not his actions. If you can find some old Climbing mags with KN letters to the editor, he articulates some decent arguments but over time he just totally lost it and started smashing things.

+1. The philosophy was simple - don't alter the rock to do your climb. Climb it however you want - TR, lead with bunge-ed hooks as pro, solo, Whatever. Just when you are done leave it unaltered so the next person can have the same experience.

Things went downhill with the tactics he used to back up his beliefs. History is full of similar examples - sit-ins, protests etc. History (at least our revisionist version) puts it in a better light now - but I'm sure a lot of people were pissed that they didn't get their morning caffeine in the days after the Boston Tea Party - but - taxation without representation had to go - right?

All this talk about environmental and access issues in regard to fixed gear is just PC fluff for arguments sake. The fundamental issue is that if you alter the rock you are making a decision for every climber who comes after you. Making those decisions is just as egotistical as chopping bolts.

Before you write me off as just a crazy KN supporter - realize its not true. I climbed with him BITD - even a couple of FA's. But now I am old and chicken and like my bolts. I just think that before you place them or alter the rock that it is good to realize that the issues are actually fairly complex. Over a little hole in a big rock.