Sunday Downtime - All Evolve Media Sites are being migrated to a new data center Sunday Dec 11, 2016. The migration will occur during an 8 AM to 2 PM (Pacific Time) maintenance window. We will have up to 1 hour of downtime for any of our sites.

Even though I like Staal a lot more than MDZ I'd rather trade Radar for MDZ than for Staal who's going to end up in Carolina when his contracts runs out.

It's all good though...apparently, we can then flip him over for Justin Faulk.

In all seriousness, the Sutter brothers (6 I think) played in the NHL at the same time and rarely for the same team. This whole Staal to Carolina is blown out of proportions in my opinion. If it's a good fit, I don't doubt he'd want to stay. Probably not going to happen though.

I get what your saying about Trouba's offense but it's probably better than you think. Even still, my personal belief is that it's not going to matter. It's like saying you don't want a young Adam Foote because he doesn't provide offense. [Trouba will be better than Foote on offense, I believe]

As for the second part, teams give up those kinds of draft picks literally all the time.

2007/06/22 San Jose Sharks traded Vesa Toskala and Mark Bell from the Toronto Maple Leafs for a conditional 1st round selection in 2007, a 2nd round selection in 2007 and a 4th round selection in 2009.

That 1st rounder turned out to be Logan Couture (9th overall). [Man, the leafs REALLY made some bad decisions when you think they could of had Tuuka Rask & Logan Couture by NOT making dumb ass trades]

As we all know, the Avs traded a 1st rounder that ended up 11th for Varlamov.

Perhaps the best comparable, both in a package return AND in the type of player that was dealt is the Jordan Staal trade of last year.

Now, keep in mind that Rutherford COULD have waited the year out and got Staal for FREE this summer but made the trade anyways (bad asset management, if you ask me). Here is an interesting article by LeBrun on this I read a few days ago:http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...-pens-chirping

Little is more offensive, Sutter is better defensively and with adequate PP time, CAN put up more points but probably better suited to a 3rd line C role. The 7th overall vs 9th overall usually means a 3rd round pick to move up to (at the draft anyways) and a developed 21 year old, former 2nd round pick is a pretty good return for Staal.

Based on this and the fact that the Avs can negotiate with 29 other teams while the Penguins apparently only had 2 options, I don't get how you can think that we'd be hard pressed to get more than a 9th overall pick.

The REAL point is this though, when teams see that there is an asset available, a guy they feel they need, they need to step up and get the deal done. Just like the Avs did with Varly and just like Rutherford did with Jordan Staal. Is it possible that Filip Forsberg goes on to score 40 goals per year in the NHL? Yep. THAT'S the risk of going out there and getting the guy you feel you need on your team. Don't have the balls to make those kinds of deals?? Then you DON'T get that player and you end up a team like the leafs who WANT Centers and Goalies but are afraid of making a bad trade.

If the Avs were only to get a 9th overall pick (or a prospect like Trouba) as a return for O'Reilly, it would be a colossal failure because of the risks involved with draft picks and prospects. You don't want to come away from a deal like this with a 'maybe', you want to come away with a deal like this with a 'ok, we've got this and the chance for 'wow'!'. That's my take on it anyways.

Barff...do not want Del Zotto. Marc Staal or GTFO. (don't care if it's not realistic, that would be the guy I would want)

I don't think those examples prove that teams give up 9th overal type picks all the time, or that the Avs will find it easy to get another big piece in addition to that like we're talking about.

The leafs are not the standard bearer for trade value on draft picks. Like you mentioned they could have had Rask and Couture, along with Seguin and Hamilton if they just stayed a little patient.

Staal had and has a lot more value than O'Reilly, especially to the Canes. They probably were worried the Rangers would outbid them, and make a flashier choice for him to go play with Marc. In which case Eric would follow in a few years. My guess is they'd probably be right on both accounts.

The Avs gave up a 1st for Varly, which is something most GM's in the league wouldn't have done. They overpaid at the time no matter what people want to say, but it worked out well for them.

In order to get the kind of extra value in this trade you're suggesting, Sherman is going to have to be both extremely patient, and lucky. Some other team is going to have to get desperate, and take a risk on giving up some big pieces, because they want to shake things up.

I have my doubts we'll get to that point this season, but we'll see.

What I don't get though is why you and others hate this idea of MDZ, but want a young Adam Foote as you call him in Trouba. That's his ceiling, and we have no need for that type of player. You can find a player to fill that role every UFA period, and not have to overpay for them. Hejda plays that role fine. We can bring in Regehr if they want that kind of player in the summer.

They need offense from the blueline, not another Hejda or even EJ. And that's if Trouba gets to that level, and they'll have to wait four or five years for him to fully develop.

It's tough to find those offensive guys, and you'll have to shell out huge contracts like Carle got as UFA's.

I am really hoping for a blockbuster trade at 2 am like EJ's in the weeks ahead, but looks like when we see one it will probably be around the trade deadline and if it doesn't happen then I guarantee we will see it around the draft.

I don't think those examples prove that teams give up 9th overal type picks all the time, or that the Avs will find it easy to get another big piece in addition to that like we're talking about.

The leafs are not the standard bearer for trade value on draft picks. Like you mentioned they could have had Rask and Couture, along with Seguin and Hamilton if they just stayed a little patient.

Staal had and has a lot more value than O'Reilly, especially to the Canes. They probably were worried the Rangers would outbid them, and make a flashier choice for him to go play with Marc. In which case Eric would follow in a few years. My guess is they'd probably be right on both accounts.

The Avs gave up a 1st for Varly, which is something most GM's in the league wouldn't have done. They overpaid at the time no matter what people want to say, but it worked out well for them.

In order to get the kind of extra value in this trade you're suggesting, Sherman is going to have to be both extremely patient, and lucky. Some other team is going to have to get desperate, and take a risk on giving up some big pieces, because they want to shake things up.

I have my doubts we'll get to that point this season, but we'll see.

What I don't get though is why you and others hate this idea of MDZ, but want a young Adam Foote as you call him in Trouba. That's his ceiling, and we have no need for that type of player. You can find a player to fill that role every UFA period, and not have to overpay for them. Hejda plays that role fine. We can bring in Regehr if they want that kind of player in the summer.

They need offense from the blueline, not another Hejda or EJ. And that's if Trouba gets to that level, and they'll have to wait four or five years for him to fully develop.

It's tough to find those offensive guys, and you'll have to shell out huge contracts like Carle got as a UFA's.

I don't know what to tell you. Do you want me to lie and say "ah yes, I've seen MDZ play on more than 20 different occasions and I love this guy?!?". I call 'em like I see 'em. I'm not a fan of Del Zotto and I never have been. I don't see his upside. Doesn't mean I'm right.

As far as Trouba, I think the guy can become a player like Karl Alzner with more offensive ability...that's nothing to sneeze at.

I believe, pretty much every Avs fan, before the season started, agreed that our biggest holes on our team was #2 and #3 d-man. I don't believe that MDZ would fill that role on the Avs and I think he'd get exposed on this team with a weak defensive corps AND no real coaching to boot. With Trouba, I believe he'd be able to fill one of those holes within 2 years. (I think he'll be in the NHL starting next season)

It has more to do with individual opinion on prospects and players than anything else. So, for me, if MDZ is going to struggle to be a #3 on this team AND he's the main piece coming back, you can see how that would make me barff.

By the way, Trouba put up 9pts in 7gp at the WJC and has 23pts in 29gp as an 18 year old playing for Michigan so it's not like the kid can't play a solid two-way game.

I don't get why you're even debating this, if you haven't seen him play.

I am really hoping for a blockbuster trade at 2 am like EJ's in the weeks ahead, but looks like when we see one it will probably be around the trade deadline and if it doesn't happen then I guarantee we will see it around the draft.

I have a feeling that is what is going to happen. We will all wake up one day, and be like "Holy ****." Then the rest of our day is totally unproductive because we will have to argue about it all day on HFBoards.

This isn't the best comparison to make for MDZ, but one that Avs fans can relate to. MDZ is what everybody wanted Liles to turn into. He high end is probably a #3 and low end is a #4. On this team I think he would look great paired next to EJ. I know everybody is expecting EJ to fill out offensively, but I am not willing bet our top pairing on it. I'd rather an offensive guy like MDZ come back in the deal instead of a Luke Schenn type.

That said I would be very happy with Trouba. His two way game is underrated.

I think the Avs will do just fine in the trade, but I have realistic expectations. I heard someone say the Avs have to get a defenseman with #1 potential. Since when do teams give those up so easily? And when do they give them up for a center who is more likely to top out as a great 2nd line center?

Some people don't like MDZ. That's fine, and everyone will have different opinions. I think he has #2 potential and would be a great fit with EJ, who is developing into more of a defensive rock than a two-way guy, much like Marc Staal.

Teams value #2/3 defensemen a lot, so I don't see how getting a defenseman like that is so bad. Get a Kulikov/MDZ type in the trade and I'll be satisfied.

In all seriousness, the Sutter brothers (6 I think) played in the NHL at the same time and rarely for the same team. This whole Staal to Carolina is blown out of proportions in my opinion. If it's a good fit, I don't doubt he'd want to stay. Probably not going to happen though.

Brent and Duane (the middle 2) played together for the Islanders and won 4 Cups. Ron and Rich (the youngest 2) played together on the Flyers for a while. Brian and Darryl never played on a team with their brothers iirc. The oldest brother did not play in the NHL.

It's all good though...apparently, we can then flip him over for Justin Faulk.

In all seriousness, the Sutter brothers (6 I think) played in the NHL at the same time and rarely for the same team. This whole Staal to Carolina is blown out of proportions in my opinion. If it's a good fit, I don't doubt he'd want to stay. Probably not going to happen though.

I don't know what to tell you. Do you want me to lie and say "ah yes, I've seen MDZ play on more than 20 different occasions and I love this guy?!?". I call 'em like I see 'em. I'm not a fan of Del Zotto and I never have been. I don't see his upside. Doesn't mean I'm right.

As far as Trouba, I think the guy can become a player like Karl Alzner with more offensive ability...that's nothing to sneeze at.

I believe, pretty much every Avs fan, before the season started, agreed that our biggest holes on our team was #2 and #3 d-man. I don't believe that MDZ would fill that role on the Avs and I think he'd get exposed on this team with a weak defensive corps AND no real coaching to boot. With Trouba, I believe he'd be able to fill one of those holes within 2 years. (I think he'll be in the NHL starting next season)

It has more to do with individual opinion on prospects and players than anything else. So, for me, if MDZ is going to struggle to be a #3 on this team AND he's the main piece coming back, you can see how that would make me barff.

By the way, Trouba put up 9pts in 7gp at the WJC and has 23pts in 29gp as an 18 year old playing for Michigan so it's not like the kid can't play a solid two-way game.

I don't get why you're even debating this, if you haven't seen him play.

I thought we were having just a normal discussion, but now it seems to be going in a different direction. I wasn't trying to be condescending when I said I don't get why you like Trouba and hate MDZ. I just don't understand the priority level. Just like you don't get my stance.

I'm using your comparables on Trouba as the basis of my argument. So you can disagree with me on whether we need those type of players, but not on him being that type of player because it's your comparable.

Also you started off this Trouba discussion saying you can't take at face value that he'll be a top pairing guy, and alluding to all the similar prospects that didn't turn out as hyped. But you take major issue with me saying I'm wary of his offensive potential, and would rather go after a more proven offensive guy.

To me I see an average defensively but good offensive guy in MDZ making a better top pairing with EJ, than a good strong defensive guy that chips in around 20 points. That's a good second pairing. It's not enough offense for a real top pairing IMO, and we're still stuck with trying to get offense from guys playing smaller roles.

That's my reasoning. I don't care if Trouba ends up being better than MDZ, it doesn't help this team as much. They need a youngish offensive defenseman. If they want a solid two way guy, or big mean defensive guy they can find that on the UFA market, or even within their own system in Siemens.

I think the Avs will do just fine in the trade, but I have realistic expectations. I heard someone say the Avs have to get a defenseman with #1 potential. Since when do teams give those up so easily? And when do they give them up for a center who is more likely to top out as a great 2nd line center?

Some people don't like MDZ. That's fine, and everyone will have different opinions. I think he has #2 potential and would be a great fit with EJ, who is developing into more of a defensive rock than a two-way guy, much like Marc Staal.

Teams value #2/3 defensemen a lot, so I don't see how getting a defenseman like that is so bad. Get a Kulikov/MDZ type in the trade and I'll be satisfied.

I tend to agree with this. If we're getting a defender for O'Reilly I think we're either getting someone similar to him (young guy with good upside who is either unproven or has some question marks) or a high end prospect ready to step in (similar to Shattenkirk or McDonagh at the times of their trades).

I thought we were having just a normal discussion, but now it seems to be going in a different direction. I wasn't trying to be condescending when I said I don't get why you like Trouba and hate MDZ. I just don't understand the priority level. Just like you don't get my stance.

I'm using your comparables on Trouba as the basis of my argument. So you can disagree with me on whether we need those type of players, but not on him being that type of player because it's your comparable.

Also you started off this Trouba discussion saying you can't take at face value that he'll be a top pairing guy, and alluding to all the similar prospects that didn't turn out as hyped. But you take major issue with me saying I'm wary of his offensive potential, and would rather go after a more proven offensive guy.

To me I see an average defensively but good offensive guy in MDZ making a better top pairing with EJ, than a good strong defensive guy that chips in around 20 points. That's a good second pairing. It's not enough offense for a real top pairing IMO, and we're still stuck with trying to get offense from guys playing smaller roles.

That's my reasoning. I don't care if Trouba ends up being better than MDZ, it doesn't help this team as much. They need a youngish offensive defenseman. If they want a solid two way guy, or big mean defensive guy they can find that on the UFA market, or even within their own system in Siemens.

That's what they need right now, not necessarily what they need long term.

I'll take a guy who can possibly end up close to EJ in terms of 2-way play, who can put up 25-35 points in a season and play as a #3 or even a #2 over a guy like MDZ who might put up 40-45 points per year but plays a Kyle Quincey-esque defensive game.

Our issues with offensive production from the back end could very well be solved by one or both of Barrie and Elliott.

You've seen this team's powerplay, do you really believe MDZ would make a difference? Hell, the Rangers are LAST in the league on the PP as hard as that might be to imagine. (They were 23rd all of last year)

That's what they need right now, not necessarily what they need long term.

I'll take a guy who can possibly end up close to EJ in terms of 2-way play, who can put up 25-35 points in a season and play as a #3 or even a #2 over a guy like MDZ who might put up 40-45 points per year but plays a Kyle Quincey-esque defensive game.

Our issues with offensive production from the back end could very well be solved by one or both of Barrie and Elliott.

You've seen this team's powerplay, do you really believe MDZ would make a difference? Hell, the Rangers are LAST in the league on the PP as hard as that might be to imagine. (They were 23rd all of last year)

Any trade for me would require a guy who is SOLID playing D. Even Ranger fans admit that MDZ is 'average' defensively. So essentially, we're getting another Liles unless this guy steps up his defensive awareness over the next couple of years (easier said than done). That's not the right kind of return for RoR. I believe that we need to make a swap for a good player and a good prospect that our scouts believe could have a significant impact on this club in the near future...by my estimation, that's Trouba.

People keep freaking out, thinking the value is out of whack but just because I value Trouba extremely highly, it doesn't mean he's at the very top of everyone's list:

He did play very, very well at the WJC and a few of these lists were compiled before that time but that's all I could find. Still, I don't think a very good tournament would rocket him up these standings into the top 10.

That's what they need right now, not necessarily what they need long term.

If they don't bring it in they'll never have it, That's what they'll need now, in the future, and to the end of time. They need this kind of player, and it's much tougher to find this player as a UFA or in the draft, than a good two way guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bender

I'll take a guy who can possibly end up close to EJ in terms of 2-way play, who can put up 25-35 points in a season and play as a #3 or even a #2 over a guy like MDZ who might put up 40-45 points per year but plays a Kyle Quincey-esque defensive game.

Again though you're backing away from your original concerns over a player not reaching their hyped potential. The same argument you made in regards to Trouba, the player we're talking about.

You're actually being more generous with MDZ's defensive game than I am. Quincey was fairly good defensively in his tenure with the Avs for the most part, and formed the best pairing with EJ he's ever had here. Why would you not want that with 40-45 points? And this is assuming the 22 year old MDZ doesn't continue to develop in a positive way like we're assuming Trouba will.

It's not fair to make that assumption of one, and not the other. Especially when Rangers fans compliment him on continually improving his overal game since his first year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bender

Our issues with offensive production from the back end could very well be solved by one or both of Barrie and Elliott.

Bringing in a two way defensive prospect and leaving the responsibility of fixing the Avs scoring troubles on the shoulders of two more prospects is a terrible idea IMO. They are playing better, and hopefully will continue to work on their overall game, but I don't see it getting to a level where it's a strength of theirs in the NHL. Most likely it will be at MDZ's level right now, or perhaps a little better at best. Not a strength, but not a huge burden.

Plus MDZ brings a physical element, and a nasty element that will suit him better for dealing with top line players. It's much smarter IMO to bring in that piece they need, and if Barrie and Elliott turn out great, then even better. Relying on them doing that alone is a mistake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bender

You've seen this team's powerplay, do you really believe MDZ would make a difference? Hell, the Rangers are LAST in the league on the PP as hard as that might be to imagine. (They were 23rd all of last year)

Yes, I think he would help the PP enormously. He's very good at getting a hard slapper off quickly and accurately, and jumps into the play very well with some good finishing moves. Barrie's getting better, but he's not at that level yet.

PP rankings don't define a PP player. It defines how it's working as a group. Plenty of good PP players in history have been on teams struggling on the PP.

If they don't bring it in they'll never have it, That's what they'll need now, in the future, and to the end of time. They need this kind of player, and it's much tougher to find this player as a UFA or in the draft, than a good two way guy.

Again though you're backing away from your original concerns over a player not reaching their hyped potential. The same argument you made in regards to Trouba, the player we're talking about.

You're actually being more generous with MDZ's defensive game than I am. Quincey was fairly good defensively in his tenure with the Avs for the most part, and formed the best pairing with EJ he's ever had here. Why would you not want that with 40-45 points? And this is assuming the 22 year old MDZ doesn't continue to develop in a positive way like we're assuming Trouba will.

It's not fair to make that assumption of one, and not the other. Especially when Rangers fans compliment him on continually improving his overal game since his first year.

Bringing in a two way defensive prospect and leaving the responsibility of fixing the Avs scoring troubles on the shoulders of two more prospects is a terrible idea IMO. They are playing better, and hopefully will continue to work on their overall game, but I don't see it getting to a level where it's a strength of theirs in the NHL. Most likely it will be at MDZ's level right now, or perhaps a little better at best. Not a strength, but not a huge burden.

Plus MDZ brings a physical element, and a nasty element that will suit him better for dealing with top line players. It's much smarter IMO to bring in that piece they need, and if Barrie and Elliott turn out great, then even better. Relying on them doing that alone is a mistake.

Yes, I think he would help the PP enormously. He's very good at getting a hard slapper off quickly and accurately, and jumps into the play very well with some good finishing moves. Barrie's getting better, but he's not at that level yet.

PP rankings don't define a PP player. It defines how it's working as a group. Plenty of good PP players in history have been on teams struggling on the PP.

Alright, I'm done with this. You bring good points but we'll see 3-4 years from now, WHO would have been better for this team, MDZ or Trouba. (We'll probably see neither in an Avs jersey anyways)

Very poor with the puck in his own defensive zone particularly around the end boards in our first few games, missed defensive assignments too. Fowards partly responsible for the horrendous breakout play but DZ shoulders some blame too.

Still has the capability to hit the long pass better than most, still can't shoot, always brings effort and plays tough, but doesn't always have enough concentration.

I'm certainly not 'eating crow' although I was never overly critical of Del Zotto in the first place. I look forward to seeing him continue his upward development trend as he approaches the 23-24 age range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aemoreira1981

Last season made me like MDZ a lot more. As for this season, his demand that a contract get done so that he could play makes me see him as a team-first guy, especially for a team with such a young blueline as the Rangers. Del Zotto could easily be a 2 or 3 on another team, but the Rangers' defense is that good.

That said, I still see MDZ as a second-pair D-man and PP quarterback.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewbackatu

Realistically speaking, Del Zotto has been, is and probably will always be an average defensive defenseman with really good passing skills and a very good all around offensive game. Staal? He has just about maxed out his potential as a solid defensive defenseman with fairly good offensive skills.

Next time a big bodied forward is out in front of the net with MDZ and Staal defending, let me know what you see without the "rose colored glasses" on!

Sounds like Liles to me except he's bigger.

That's actually a thread where they start out LOVING MDZ and then are pissed because he goes into a slump. Then they go on to discuss the RoR rumors in which they think EJ or Barrie is going to be included. LOL talk about NOT knowing ANYTHING about RoR!!

Trade O'Reilly for a top 4 defenseman, get EJ and Wilson back, and suddenly the defense doesn't look so bad.

Hopefully, but the PK and defensive game from the forwards still doesn't look that great.

Staz doesn't seem as consistently good as he was early in his career, and even though Duchene's improved his defensive game, if you watch him closely, it's still not that great. Mitchell's ok but isn't really where I'd like it to be either for a 3rd line center. Jones isn't that great. PAP makes some decent defensive plays, but also looks pretty lazy on a lot of shifts. McGinn and McLeod are ok. Hejduk's got one foot in Prague. Olver and Bordy are 4th liners.

Landy's really the only forward I see consistently playing a strong defensive game. They need to replace O'Reilly's two way game somehow, or they're going to continue to give up too many shots and goals. A new coach that can teach would help too.

Our issues with offensive production from the back end could very well be solved by one or both of Barrie and Elliott.

They could, but these guys are far from proven, and unless Elliott improves a ton defensively, I don't see him being much more than a bottom pairing defenseman. And beyond those two, who do they have? Siemens is a defensive guy whose numbers have been slowly declining in juniors and EJ isn't a PPQB. I'm pretty confident in Barrie developing into a top 4 guy, but not so much with Elliott. Just one developing won't suddenly fix the lack of offense from the blue line now or in the future.

I want to get either MDZ or Kulikov in any O'Reilly trade, but I'm not as convinced that Kulikov will be the better defenseman of the two. He's prone to a lot of defensive brain farts himself.