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I have been trying to refrain from jumping in on this thread due to its obvious volatile topic, but since I spent my formative years in the 60's, I felt that Janis, Jimi, Jerry, as well as some other notable visionary's of that era, would say to this question: " What's your Point?"

So, "Farm Out, Right Arm, and Party on, Dude" (if you are scratching your head trying to figure out this last statement, you are obviously too young and need to spend some time in a 'head shop' getting a proper perspective on things)

Of course, the folks you listed all died from excess. If anything I would argue they're good examples of why not to do drugs because of the tendancy for many folks to be consumed by that which they consume (addictive/obsessive peronalities are particularly prone to this, of course). Their thinking was that drugs were a way of breaking through a lame status quo mindset, and I would guess it probably helped in some capacity. They can certainly create powerful emotional experiences which can then lead to interesting results, some good, some bad, depending on the circumstances and the individual(s) involved. Where insight may have been gained I believe it is less a matter of the drug and more a matter of the wits of the individual, which to my mind points to the idea that drugs of any kind are essentially superfluous to the goal in mind, unless the goal is simply to get high.

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Eugene wrote:

A)I've been there done that and there's a reason Marijuana is illegal.
B)I don't like to think of kids using it during their important formative teen years.
C)It will mess with one's cognitive functions.
Learning anything while high on THC will be marred by delusions of progress and loss of short term memory.
D)All you "cool running" smoker's cannot refute that.

A) And what reason is it illegal...particularly while alcohol is not? My understanding is that it had to do with business interests, not health factors. Again, when compared to other controled substances, marijuana is extremely benign, but B) I agree completely that developing bodies shouldn't use it at all, regardless of the purpose.
C)I don't think it's so cut and dried as that though. Again let me be clear I'm not automatically condoning anything here. I think any drug use (e.g. alcohol, marijuana, etc.) is a personal choice that all people should be wary of, no matter how benign it appears. That said, I know musicians who have no problem remembering the new songs they learned while high on marijuana. I used to play chess while high without any noticeable problems...again, no more so than alcohol. These are activities which demand mental and physical accuity in fairly significant amounts. Also, short-term memory loss isn't absolute. I remember quite a bit from my stoner years and I was stoned a lot...too much even. I think this is a function of how much one chooses to indulge in: in all things too much is too much. I would suggest that regular use is probably not very healthy.
D) I'm not trying to refute your thinking here so much as trying to offer an alternative point of view for folks to correct or otherwise add to.
I understand that this thread is about how this should or shouldn't be applied to Aikidoists, but I believe that the thing itself has to be discussed if people are going to make their own personal choices. Simply put, I know pot-smokers who are every bit as sharp-minded and capable as non-smokers, so i don't see how it can be so simple as "it's ok," or, "it's not ok." I think different people will respond differently and as long as it doesn't impinge upon other people I don't believe in telling people what to do, which is the only reason I've suggested there might be positive results as well as the obvious (at least to me) negatives.
Anyhow, FWIW.
Take care of yourselves,
Matthew

With all the stuff out there about smoking and the various kinds of cancer, why would you want to destroy yourself slowly and risk cancer??? IF someone would walk into my dojo "High" or smelling of weed, leaving the dojo would be the fastest "trip" he'd ever have.

To quote George Carlin, "Have you ever noticed that their stuff is shit and your shit is stuff?"

While best practice is to be fully lucid when you train, the most reckless and dangerous people I've ever encountered on the mat had both very negative attitudes about drug use and no regard whatsoever for their partners' bodies.

Two of the best guys I used to roll with liked to get high, both before and after practice. One was also a Greco Roman guy who used to love doing soft wrestling while high or after a few beers.
While we trained very seriously most of the time, we trained with a buzz on in so many living rooms, wedding receptions, parties, and parking lots I lost count. Oh the stories our loved ones could tell!!

I consider full contact jujutsu safer than aikido practice anyway. Why, because you're not giving away body parts or your whole frame to be thrown. Having someone fight to get you while you fight back is much safer, for me.

Anyway, while I don't smoke weed, I have trained/played with some veeery well known men while drunk. and we had a blast. It's another way of testing to me. Then again, I've also trained weapons in a raging blizzard two feet deep and blowing sideways, outside up and down hills, at night by moonlight, I've also gone all out while drunk (with permission from my partners). It's fun to test and play.

So, while -in general- I am all for not allowing intoxication during training, I'm just not much for sweating the little things. I agree with Fred, that some of the worst examples of Budo I have ever met were very legalistic, and wound so tight you...well, that's for another day.
Cheers
Dan

T
While best practice is to be fully lucid when you train, the most reckless and dangerous people I've ever encountered on the mat had both very negative attitudes about drug use and no regard whatsoever for their partners' bodies.

So I'm sticking with "case-by-case."

Best,

FL

With all due respect Fred.

Am I to infer that one always goes with the other?

A little too much duality for me.

I know folks who love puppies and bunny rabbits who would rip your arm out of the socket, and I also know DEA agents who are very gentle souls in practice.

I know folks who love puppies and bunny rabbits who would rip your arm out of the socket, and I also know DEA agents who are very gentle souls in practice.

William Hazen

Why thank you, kind sir. Actually, I'm not real big on the dualism either, so I wouldn't recommend inferring an entire theory of operation out of a counter-example or three.

In fact, when I think over the list of "most dangerous people I've ever worked with," among the names at the top of the list are a macrobiotic vegetarian and a Quaker, neither of whom smoked weed or drank. And I've worked with at least one very nice DEA agent who I would trust on the mat without reservation.

What I take from this is the notion that substance ingestion is not the only route to a condition of intoxication and heedlessness that is dangerous to others, and I'm back to "case-by-case."

Why thank you, kind sir. Actually, I'm not real big on the dualism either, so I wouldn't recommend inferring an entire theory of operation out of a counter-example or three.

In fact, when I think over the list of "most dangerous people I've ever worked with," among the names at the top of the list are a macrobiotic vegetarian and a Quaker, neither of whom smoked weed or drank. And I've worked with at least one very nice DEA agent who I would trust on the mat without reservation.

What I take from this is the notion that substance ingestion is not the only route to a condition of intoxication and heedlessness that is dangerous to others, and I'm back to "case-by-case."

All nice points to the conversation, and many folks from the 60s' presented a very highbrow explanation of their actions - however, you hit the nail on the head with the above comment - it was a very simple goal that most obtained often - as been said before: "if you remember the 60s, you weren't there"

IMO, It doesn't improve the dialogue to take a "this is what I think, and if you don't agree with me 100%, this is what you are!" approach.

(This isn't dialogue either soapbox lady).

Mr. Gano;

You seem like a likable guy by your posts I've seen on different threads and you debate well.
....I am not saying alcohol is better, (I totally agree with the economic conspiracy theory's concerning alcohol and tobacco taxation)....or that the friends I have that smoke dope are anything less than...I agree with alot of your points...what I'm saying is just MY opinion but it's shared by the Law of Canada.

I'm saying if one wishes to search themselves spiritually do it where it's not illegal and doesn't present influence to others.
My buddies that still smoke dope know it's illegal and keep it well hidden from their kids but my opinions and values differ...
If you want to do LSD like James Coburn with his psychistrist it's a controlled lawful environment..(at the time at least).

If you want to do mesacalin with a bonifide Peruvian shaman... it's lawful and controlled.

Peyote with a medicine man in Mexico...same thing.

Mary Jane?...head to Amsterdam or Jamaica.

In THIS country the definition of the law is "not hurting another" directly or indirectly. Not all drug dealers are cute Cheech and Chong types and most sell other, harder drugs. Cops are in the line of fire and YES I agree some people can handle THC just fine but for every 5 easy breezy potheads there are 95 drop-outs and hard drug users that inadvertantly used pot as a gateway to other crap and lost their way.

Cheers and God Bless....

Self-discipline is the chief element of self-esteem; and self-esteem the chief element of courage. Thucydides

In THIS country the definition of the law is "not hurting another" directly or indirectly. Not all drug dealers are cute Cheech and Chong types and most sell other, harder drugs. Cops are in the line of fire and YES I agree some people can handle THC just fine but for every 5 easy breezy potheads there are 95 drop-outs and hard drug users that inadvertantly used pot as a gateway to other crap and lost their way.

Cheers and God Bless....

If you were to reverse your stats it would be much closer to the truth in my experience..and to me it is an experiential kind of thing...If casual pot users could tag along with a kilo of dope and experience all the crap that goes on to get them their 'harmless" high they might think twice about the real meaning behind the cause and effect of "harmless"...

So smoking Dope and Doing Aikido is no different to me than asking if snorting coke will make your sex life better or drinking to excess will make you a better writer.

Been There Done That... and all it took was sitting still for me to discover that reality is more awesome than any experience I could try to "manufacture."

That being said (as Roshi always used to say) "being present may be the hardest practice you'll ever do in your life but it is definitely far beyond anything you could ever imagine." LOL

If casual pot users could tag along with a kilo of dope and experience all the crap that goes on to get them their 'harmless" high they might think twice about the real meaning behind the cause and effect of "harmless".

Q: How much of this "crap" is the result of prohibition? Doesn't cause-and-effect includes more than those involved as grower-middle-man-seller-buyer-user in the black market, and also include those who declared it illegal? Which, if any, of the truly-objectionable-and-don't-tell-me-it's-none-of-my-business consequences from huffing weed DO NOT stem from prohibition?

Say'n it's wrong (as some other posters have) doesn't mean it makes sense to declare it a crime, IMHO.

But we digress; getting back to the troll-y OP that got folks all wound up:

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So smoking Dope and Doing Aikido is no different to me than asking if snorting coke will make your sex life better or drinking to excess will make you a better writer.

Sums it up nicely, for me. Quite nicely.

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Been There Done That... and all it took was sitting still for me to discover that reality is more awesome than any experience I could try to "manufacture."

Mr. Gano;
You seem like a likable guy by your posts I've seen on different threads and you debate well.

I deeply appreciate hearing that, thank you! I regularly feel uncomfortable with my posts here, and for a variety of reasons, but, well, thank you again.

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what I'm saying is just MY opinion but it's shared by the Law of Canada.

Fair enough.

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I'm saying if one wishes to search themselves spiritually do it where it's not illegal and doesn't present influence to others.

Good point. There are ways to experience things that are probably a bit more authentic and are safer/kinder to oneself or others. Also, per my experiences: I was the rare sort who didn't make the decision to smoke lightly. It was only after some focused study that I made the decision...and interestingly enough I STILL went through a period of time where I enjoyed it more than I should have. It can be easy to get caught up in a culture, even for a guy who might have a great track record of not falling for peer pressure like I did.

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In THIS country the definition of the law is "not hurting another" directly or indirectly. Not all drug dealers are cute Cheech and Chong types and most sell other, harder drugs. Cops are in the line of fire and YES I agree some people can handle THC just fine but for every 5 easy breezy potheads there are 95 drop-outs and hard drug users that inadvertantly used pot as a gateway to other crap and lost their way.

Cheers and God Bless....

Having grown up in an area that was/is rife with drugs I can appreciate where you're coming from here. Almost every user I've known (of whatever variety), started when they were in their teens or younger (with alcohol and tobacco first). That isn't good. Like William, my experiences don't quite fit your 1 in 20 remark about drop-outs, etc., but I have noticed a gradual shift in the culture. Pop culture has created a thug-life mentality even within the "soft" marijuana world.

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William wrote:

Been There Done That...reality is more awesome than any experience I could try to "manufacture."

I agree whole-heartedly! In fact I was just sitting here looking at my 8-month-old and felt like I was about to burst from the immense feeling of bliss. Moments like that have clearly been the most spiritual highs I've ever experienced, hands down.

I've had friends suggest marijuana for some recurring health issues I've had. Severe muscle spasms, myopathy, etc. I don't because I worry about the example I set for my child. Not because I think there is anything wrong with the drug for the purpose -- but because it is illegal (on some level at least -- I can't quite figure out California's drug laws nowadays) which creates a problem for me in terms of being consistent and setting a good example for the kid.

But that said... I have two bottles in my medicine cabinet right now. A powerful codeine tablet for when the pain is really bad. I could *easily* get to like that stuff too much. I also have Soma for the spasms at night when things go bad. That one I'm told people have trouble with -- I don't quite get that as it just puts me to sleep and I can't function any longer, but I do recognize that it is also a problem drug. Perfectly legal. Powerful. Socially "acceptable" for me to be taking.

So I have two very powerful drugs that are by all accounts more powerful and both easily abused. Condoned and appropriate. But I hesitate to use another drug that would arguably be less potent and might actually help more. That I could in theory just grow for myself in my backyard.

So I have two very powerful drugs that are by all accounts more powerful and both easily abused. Condoned and appropriate. But I hesitate to use another drug that would arguably be less potent and might actually help more. That I could in theory just grow for myself in my backyard.

What a screwy world...

I was just about to post something similar...and I suppose I'm still about to, now that I think about it:
The over the counter cold medicine I recently took for my congestion was every bit as mind-altering as marijuana; more so, by my reckoning.

I've some experience with weed; bought it, was involved in selling it, sent people to jail for stems and seeds in the old days, written citations for less than an ounce, attended the funerals of eight guys who died in a helicopter crash doing counterdrug operations and had a friend kidnapped, tortured and murdered in Mexico. I've come to the conclusion that the greatest evil involved is in the prohibition. I would vastly prefer that most of our dollars went to prevention and treatment and the remainder to enforcement.

All that said, I don't want to train with anyone who is loaded on any substance - legal or illegal. Have a beer or whatever you choose after class, but not before. I don't want you flying my airplane loaded, performing surgery on me, fixing the brakes on my truck or installing the throttle on my Lexus loaded either.

Folks...Like I said before...I am voting to decriminalize Ganja in November (That is If we still have a State by then... )

While it is true that much of the "harm" done by Ganja can be found in it's prohibition... My point was Everything I do has an effect and unless I am mindful of my actions I can cause great harm engaging in so called "harmless" activities...

Heck... Why do you think I love Aikido?

So again while smoking Ganja may increase "Rastamon Vibrations Yeah"...for your Aikido...Remember the true cost you are paying for your "enlightenment."

So again while smoking Ganja may increase "Rastamon Vibrations Yeah"...for your Aikido...Remember the true cost you are paying for your "enlightenment."

Very nice. Do you feel the same about people who eat pork?

You know...I'm just going to come out and say this. I find this offensive, and I'm not just talking about William's dig above, but at a lot of what's gone on in this thread. I'm not a Rasta and I don't smoke anything, but I just don't like the way that the anti-marijuana people in this thread have consistently labeled, mischaracterized, ridiculed and demonized anyone who doesn't toe their party line. And ya know what, smileys don't fix it. Sorry, but they don't.

The post that started this thread was a silly toss-off: "should you smoke marijuana on your aikido journey". Who knows what that even means? It's somewhat open to interpretation, yet so many people in this thread made assumptions, ranging from "This person thinks it's fine to train while high" to "this person has no problems with criminal behavior" to "this person is smoking for 'enlightenment' *snicker*" to "this person is like a little child, and so I will lecture him/her like a little child about all the dangers of marijuana, which I know all about and which he/she could not possibly know anything about" to "this person is a member of a religion that I consider laughable and have no problems mocking in public". Oh, that little line was a perfect strawman -- and y'all went to town on it.

There are a lot of things that go into having respect for other human beings. One is that you yourself are not all-wise, and that simply because someone else's choices (or what very, very, microscopically little you know about them from posts on the internet) do not make sense to you, that doesn't mean that you've got it sussed and they're an idiot. A little humility wouldn't do any harm, even on a subject that you believe to be cut and dried.

With all due respect we have a saying Mary...Drop your magnifying glass and pick up the mirror...I was attending Bob Marley Concerts and smoking Ganja back in 1976 To project your judgments on me about how I see people is more a reflection of you...Not a day goes by where I don't enjoy listening to Bob or some other Reggae musician and I certainly do not judge folks who smoke or drink or snort...That would be kind of hypocritical for me.LOL

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You know...I'm just going to come out and say this. I find this offensive, and I'm not just talking about William's dig above, but at a lot of what's gone on in this thread. I'm not a Rasta and I don't smoke anything, but I just don't like the way that the anti-marijuana people in this thread have consistently labeled, mischaracterized, ridiculed and demonized anyone who doesn't toe their party line. And ya know what, smileys don't fix it. Sorry, but they don't.

Sorry you find the molehill offensive but I personally do not see a mountain here...Again

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The post that started this thread was a silly toss-off: "should you smoke marijuana on your aikido journey". Who knows what that even means? It's somewhat open to interpretation, yet so many people in this thread made assumptions, ranging from "This person thinks it's fine to train while high" to "this person has no problems with criminal behavior" to "this person is smoking for 'enlightenment' *snicker*" to "this person is like a little child, and so I will lecture him/her like a little child about all the dangers of marijuana, which I know all about and which he/she could not possibly know anything about" to "this person is a member of a religion that I consider laughable and have no problems mocking in public". Oh, that little line was a perfect strawman -- and y'all went to town on it.

There are a lot of things that go into having respect for other human beings. One is that you yourself are not all-wise, and that simply because someone else's choices (or what very, very, microscopically little you know about them from posts on the internet) do not make sense to you, that doesn't mean that you've got it sussed and they're an idiot. A little humility wouldn't do any harm, even on a subject that you believe to be cut and dried.

Thanks for the lesson in personal correctness. I completely understand where you're coming from.

The martial arts are a way of life. One is supposed to practice the same values on and off the mat. Anything that is bad on the mat is also bad off the mat, and for the same reasons.
That's my opinion.

I noticed as a smoker my neck muscles and my solar plexus area got rather tight or otherwise seemed to be over-used. I wonder at how that might affect the ability to respond properly with aiki.
Any thoughts on how the smoking aspect might apply to breath power? I presume it would apply negatively.
In general terms I believe we're trying to develop a somewhat yang body state (expansive, etc. correct?). If pot is very yin, I can see how that might make it less useful to this aim.
...just off the top of my head. Anyone with a deeper yin/yang, etc. understanding care to add to or correct anything?

So, if I understand you, if it would be "bad" to joke around and make noise during practice, it is bad to joke around or make noise when you're at a party?

The Founder said to practice with a smile.
Which I do... a little giggle every now and then never hurt my training either.
For a note I agree that mat imitates life and vise-verse.
On the mat there is time for serious concentration, and there is time for comradeship. Both are in the spirit of love.

I noticed as a smoker my neck muscles and my solar plexus area got rather tight or otherwise seemed to be over-used. I wonder at how that might affect the ability to respond properly with aiki.
Any thoughts on how the smoking aspect might apply to breath power? I presume it would apply negatively.
In general terms I believe we're trying to develop a somewhat yang body state (expansive, etc. correct?). If pot is very yin, I can see how that might make it less useful to this aim.
...just off the top of my head. Anyone with a deeper yin/yang, etc. understanding care to add to or correct anything?

I'm not sure what smoking can do to your nage, but I know what it can do to your uke.
Smoking causes a host of tissue issues in the circulatory system, as well as the muscular system. It lowers red blood cell production, your macrophages lower, and increases micro-vascular occlusion and tissue ischemia. Platelets in the tissues can also become hyper-adhesive, and inflexible. (most of these issues are caused by increase of carbon in the system, so weed is in trouble too here. )

All in all, if you take a bad fall on your shoulder, or get twisted up on a projection, it will take a smoker almost 4times longer to heal those injuries. A statistic that grows after the age of 30 dramatically.