Smith has played every down his first 2 years in the league and is still 23yrs old. He certainly needs to continue to improve/develop and I think year 3 will be big for him. He needs to take that next step and be more consistent while reducing the penalties.

If not I could see us drafting an OT next offseason.

I'm much higher on Cam Robinson than most, but whther it's Cam, Ramzyck, or Bolles I'd be fine w/ an OT. I'll never be too upset at drafting linemen early on either side of the ball tbh.

The kid from Bucknell Julien Davenport is nice rd 3-4 guy that will take 1-2 years to develop but has all the tools to be really good Tackle. Garcia is another that I like on day 2.

That chart is lazy. Are these pressures from a 4 man rush? 5 man? 6 man? All out blitz? Was the tackle in question responsible for the rusher who put on the pressure? Did the pressure come immediately or after the QB held on to the ball for a while. It's not a coincidence that Flowers & Smith are stop that list as their respective And have reputations for holding on to the ball too long thrn making questionable throws. I'm not suggesting either is Orlando Pace but that chart hardly tells a complete story. Also James flushes himself out of the pocket on occasion as well so is it likely that a "pressure" is being attributed here? Look at the tape. Smith played well and got better as the year went on. I think he'll play even better in year 3. Fans need to be patient and understand that development is necessary. The next guy isn't always the better option.

The only guy with the same experience and age as Smith is Flowers who went #9 overall. You could also look at Smith compared to a veteran like Reiff and see the difference in total pressures allowed equates to about 1/2 a pressure per game.

Looking back at the last two drafts Smith is arguably the best tackle drafted outside of Conklin (although I am sure I missed someone). The tackles in 2015 drafted before him don't even play LT (or even Tackle at all). (Peat got time at LT because of injury only). 2016 has more potential with Tunsil and Conklin.

A lot of the hate for Smith is just people wanting to sound smarter than the team/other posters. Smith wasn't an elite prospect, the team knew that, but he is a long term investment. People act like Donald Penn was a top LT the moment he joined the Bucs, and that his first two seasons as a starter were better than Smiths (they weren't). Getting a starting calibre LT isn't easy, and even elite prospects often bust or underwhelm (Flowers, Gallery, etc).

Smith has played much better than his detractors give him credit for, at a young age. He is still also somewhat raw - he wasn't a guy who entered the draft at 24 with years of college experience. I expect that a year or two from now, people are going to be talking about what a steal we got with the guy.

MJW wrote:You guys want him to be something he's not, and it's an unreasonable expectation on your part. It's your problem, not his. The guy goes out and produces on the field at a rate only a handful of players at his position are capable of. He's never going to be Warren Sapp, which is what everyone is REALLY asking for here - a field marshal who fires up the D and has swagger and punches guys in the kidney in the pile. That's not who McCoy is. That's not who he was when he was at OU and that's not who he was when he was drafted #3 overall. You don't "become" that guy and when you try, you end up with that Dallas pregame speech.

Let it go. Let the man go out and do his job because he's damn good at it.

It's whatever, but this is a topic here because Gerald McCoy talked at length about wanting to be something that he has not been thus far is a professional. He expressed the opinion that what he has been has not been sufficient for what he wants.

But nowhere did he say he want to be more of an ***hole on the field (i.e., punching kidneys in the pile, swaggering around the field, etc.). He said that he needs to be closing out games in the 4th quarter (i.e., sacking/pressuring the QB) instead of disappearing.

Caradoc wrote:A lot of the hate for Smith is just people wanting to sound smarter than the team/other posters. Smith wasn't an elite prospect, the team knew that, but he is a long term investment. People act like Donald Penn was a top LT the moment he joined the Bucs, and that his first two seasons as a starter were better than Smiths (they weren't). Getting a starting calibre LT isn't easy, and even elite prospects often bust or underwhelm (Flowers, Gallery, etc).

Smith has played much better than his detractors give him credit for, at a young age. He is still also somewhat raw - he wasn't a guy who entered the draft at 24 with years of college experience. I expect that a year or two from now, people are going to be talking about what a steal we got with the guy.

This just isn't true. He's been amongst the worst graded tackles two years in a row by PFF. He's given up the second most amount of pressures allowed amongst tackles over the last two years. Criticism of his play is justified. Doesn't mean he can't improve and become a good starter, but he definitely has not played well and does need to improve.

Caradoc wrote:A lot of the hate for Smith is just people wanting to sound smarter than the team/other posters. Smith wasn't an elite prospect, the team knew that, but he is a long term investment. People act like Donald Penn was a top LT the moment he joined the Bucs, and that his first two seasons as a starter were better than Smiths (they weren't). Getting a starting calibre LT isn't easy, and even elite prospects often bust or underwhelm (Flowers, Gallery, etc).

Smith has played much better than his detractors give him credit for, at a young age. He is still also somewhat raw - he wasn't a guy who entered the draft at 24 with years of college experience. I expect that a year or two from now, people are going to be talking about what a steal we got with the guy.

This just isn't true. He's been amongst the worst graded tackles two years in a row by PFF. He's given up the second most amount of pressures allowed amongst tackles over the last two years. Criticism of his play is justified. Doesn't mean he can't improve and become a good starter, but he definitely has not played well and does need to improve.

And once again Dirk Koetter would be the 1st person to tell you to take those OFF ratings and shove them up your ass. They don't take a ton of data into account.

Bootz2004 wrote:And once again Dirk Koetter would be the 1st person to tell you to take those OFF ratings and shove them up your ass. They don't take a ton of data into account.

You say that every time, yet he never has and you always do, so I suspect you'd be the first person to say that.

Here you go.

“I know there’s the critics out there that have their own grading scale, the mysterious grading scale. We look at our own grading scale. We’re going to grade them how – because we know what they are supposed to be doing every play. Other people that grade them, how do you grade someone when you don’t know what they are supposed to do?

Naismith wrote:You say that every time, yet he never has and you always do, so I suspect you'd be the first person to say that.

He has said it before, as has Belicheck, as have many other coaches, yet you continue to insist they never have.

LOL, I promise you Dirk has never said anything to me about any ratings. But I know you guys don't like any kind of ratings or data that aren't straight objective (or in Bootz' case, a lot of times that are objective but he thinks are subjective), but I'd love to see anything that supports the idea that Smith hasn't been bad other than just your opinion.

People on this board love to hate on Smith. We've also become strangers to the concept of developing and grooming players. Everything has either been awesome rookie out of the gate or FA signing here for a long time. I think Smith is developing just fine and am very excited to see him continue to grow this year. Even if we were to draft a OT in the 1st it's doubtful they'd come close to beating out Smith for the starting LT spot. People give college kids way too much hype.

I also think Dotson is being very underrated by this board. His biggest weakness these past two years has been injuries and having us watch Cherilus. Thank goodness that's over. I'm on board with Julie'n Davenport who the FO has met with a couple of times already. He's a mid-late round project. Groom him for the last year or two of the Dotson era (or until he's simply a better player than Demar).

At the end if we do end up drafting an OT in the first (which the draft would have to fall mighty poorly for that to happen), he won't be starting. Bank on that.

Naismith wrote:You say that every time, yet he never has and you always do, so I suspect you'd be the first person to say that.

Here you go.

“I know there’s the critics out there that have their own grading scale, the mysterious grading scale. We look at our own grading scale. We’re going to grade them how – because we know what they are supposed to be doing every play. Other people that grade them, how do you grade someone when you don’t know what they are supposed to do?

The only guy with the same experience and age as Smith is Flowers who went #9 overall. You could also look at Smith compared to a veteran like Reiff and see the difference in total pressures allowed equates to about 1/2 a pressure per game.

Looking back at the last two drafts Smith is arguably the best tackle drafted outside of Conklin (although I am sure I missed someone). The tackles in 2015 drafted before him don't even play LT (or even Tackle at all). (Peat got time at LT because of injury only). 2016 has more potential with Tunsil and Conklin.

A lot of the hate for Smith is just people wanting to sound smarter than the team/other posters. Smith wasn't an elite prospect, the team knew that, but he is a long term investment. People act like Donald Penn was a top LT the moment he joined the Bucs, and that his first two seasons as a starter were better than Smiths (they weren't). Getting a starting calibre LT isn't easy, and even elite prospects often bust or underwhelm (Flowers, Gallery, etc).

Smith has played much better than his detractors give him credit for, at a young age. He is still also somewhat raw - he wasn't a guy who entered the draft at 24 with years of college experience. I expect that a year or two from now, people are going to be talking about what a steal we got with the guy.

Excellent post. Player development is a foreign concept around here. I think Smith will turn out to be a good LT. Just based on the eye test alone he improved over the second half of last year.

The only guy with the same experience and age as Smith is Flowers who went #9 overall. You could also look at Smith compared to a veteran like Reiff and see the difference in total pressures allowed equates to about 1/2 a pressure per game.

Looking back at the last two drafts Smith is arguably the best tackle drafted outside of Conklin (although I am sure I missed someone). The tackles in 2015 drafted before him don't even play LT (or even Tackle at all). (Peat got time at LT because of injury only). 2016 has more potential with Tunsil and Conklin.

A lot of the hate for Smith is just people wanting to sound smarter than the team/other posters. Smith wasn't an elite prospect, the team knew that, but he is a long term investment. People act like Donald Penn was a top LT the moment he joined the Bucs, and that his first two seasons as a starter were better than Smiths (they weren't). Getting a starting calibre LT isn't easy, and even elite prospects often bust or underwhelm (Flowers, Gallery, etc).

Smith has played much better than his detractors give him credit for, at a young age. He is still also somewhat raw - he wasn't a guy who entered the draft at 24 with years of college experience. I expect that a year or two from now, people are going to be talking about what a steal we got with the guy.

Excellent post. Player development is a foreign concept around here. I think Smith will turn out to be a good LT. Just based on the eye test alone he improved over the second half of last year.

I admittedly did not think he could be an NFL LT long term when we drafted him. Didn't think that after his rookie year. Then he got better. Doc is right. He's been much better than his detractors and even myself gave him credit for. But the thing that sticks out to me is I don't remember hearing his name much the 2nd half of the year. He appears to be someone who's improving at his craft. It's a beautiful thing. Something most fans know nothing about if they don't know much about the game.

Naismith wrote:You say that every time, yet he never has and you always do, so I suspect you'd be the first person to say that.

Here you go.

“I know there’s the critics out there that have their own grading scale, the mysterious grading scale. We look at our own grading scale. We’re going to grade them how – because we know what they are supposed to be doing every play. Other people that grade them, how do you grade someone when you don’t know what they are supposed to do?

Last August, Bill Belichick talked about the dangers of watching film and making conclusions based on it.

It might even look to us like somebody made a mistake but then we look at it more closely maybe somebody besides him made a mistake and he was trying to compensate. I think we need a little closer analysis a lot of times. Sometimes the play calls or what was called on the line of scrimmage might be something that we’re not aware of. That could happen in any game. You think a player did something that he shouldn’t have done but maybe he got a call, a line call or a call from a linebacker or he thought the quarterback said something so he did what he thought was the right thing or maybe it was the right thing but that call shouldn’t have been made or should have been on the other side. But yeah, I think we need to be careful about what we’re evaluating.

So sometimes even the team itself doesn’t know exactly where things broke down and who did what wrong. Belichick then went on to talk about watching opposing team’s game films and the impossibilities of knowing what happened:

But believe me, I’ve watched plenty of preseason games this time of year and you’re looking at all the other teams in the league and you try to evaluate players and you’re watching the teams that we’re going to play early in the season and there are plenty of plays where I have no idea what went wrong. Something’s wrong but I don’t…these two guys made a mistake but I don’t know which guy it was or if it was both of them. You just don’t know that. I don’t know how you can know that unless you’re really part of the team and know exactly what was supposed to happen on that play. I know there are a lot of experts out there that have it all figured out but I definitely don’t. This time of year, sometimes it’s hard to figure that out, exactly what they’re trying to do. When somebody makes a mistake, whose mistake is it?

Bill Belichick doesn’t have it figured out. But Pro Football Focus does? They can provide a grade on every play?

That bold is snark directed directly at the grading system, if you struggle with reading comprehension

And more:

Another problem is that the NFL just recently added the coaches film to Game Rewind, so before that, the PFF graders could not even see the entire field. I don’t know if they currently even utilize the overhead game film, or just rely on the standard HD game telecasts. If it is the latter, they cannot see every player on the field for every play…so how can they grade what they can’t see? (And actually, the All-22 film doesn’t come out until mid-week, which is after PFF has posted their initial grades- so they’re not using it, at least in their first gradings.)

So they also aren't even using the All-22 for their grades in all likelihood.

In short, no team gives a crap about PFF's "grades" they care about the objective measurables they collect (they collect whatever you ask, air time, release time, hand time, snap counts, etc)

"they look at some dumb ass web site that doesn’t have any idea of what football is. The same website that two years ago that rated Kelly Jennings the best tackling corner in the NFL. These people who aren’t football they are trying to be critical. ."

Last edited by Caradoc on Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kelly: “No, I mean I’ve said it all along, how can they grade an offensive lineman when they don’t know what the play is? I’ve had it before, our left tackle gave up a sack. He didn’t give up a sack because the guy slanted in the ‘B’ gap. The guard had ‘B’ gap and that’s not the left tackle’s responsibility, but it’s written down as a sack on the left tackle because you don’t know what play was called. We called slide protection. We didn’t call man protection. If someone can look at a film and figure out what we call for a play and know what our scheme is and then give a guy a grade on it, I think there’s a lot of players and coaches that feel the same way. I don’t know. You can do whatever you want with it. It’s like me going into a bank and grading a teller because they gave me a lollipop. I gave them a 94.3.

Reporter: I'd go 100 percent

Kelly: “I mean, it depends on what lollipop. It was purple and I wanted red, but they did give you a lollipop. But, I didn’t know they weren’t allowed to give purple out that day. So, if I did know that I probably would have given them a higher grade, but I didn’t know the information going in.”

”

Last edited by Caradoc on Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.