It seems that the Canada-Australia bilateral allows Air Canada fly through HNL, SFO, or "another city to be negotiated", or something to that effect. With the new USA-Canada bilateral, AC would be allowed to fly from a Canadian city to a US city, and then on to another country, with full traffic rights on all sectors. There would need to be, of course, an existing air agreement between Canada and that other country. AC wanted to use LAX as a hub for this flight, getting not only LAX-SYD traffic, but also connections from across Canada and the US. However, Australia is dragging their heels on discussions over that "city to be negotiated" (obviously LAX). AC decided not to wait any longer, and will use their 777s to fly YVR-SYD non-stop. It is uncertain if the YYZ-LAX-SYD route will ever start.

Quoting YYZACGUY (Reply 4):So if AC can do The YYZLAXSYD does that mean QANTAS can do SYDLAXYYZ? I guess any one can do it??? Correct me if i am wrong

Well, right now AC can't do YYZ-LAX-SYD, so the question is moot, but if the parties reached an agreement to allow it, it would probably allow Qantas to set another US point for fifth freedoms to Canada, and that could be LAX. It could also be another city - like DFW - if QF preferred such an arrangement with a OneWorld partner considering the 787s are coming soon.

My guess is that oz won't over let them have LAX. LAX is their big cash market. UA dominates SFO as a gateway, QF has LAX. oz blocked SQ from running that route, I'd imagine they'll block AC as well. Our best hopes for a 3rd carrier on SYD-LAX is Delta starting it once they get some more 777s.

It's not "dead in the water", however it won't happen until 2009, when DJ will be established on the LAX run and JQ to whereever in N. America. After that Canada will get want they want, probabley a "blue skys" agreement, after all Oz has no basic problem with open skys with Canada, unlike the it has with the US & EU.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 9):
It's not "dead in the water", however it won't happen until 2009, when DJ will be established on the LAX run and JQ to whereever in N. America. After that Canada will get want they want, probably a "blue skys" agreement, after all Oz has no basic problem with open skys with Canada, unlike the it has with the US & EU.

Gemuser

"Wherever in North America for JQ" certainly won't include Canada. There will be no agreement with Australia allowing JQ into Canada before their other bilateral issues are settled. Concurrent with settling other issues, maybe. And I wouldn't bet on 2009. Probably later. I'm told that if there is no settlement this fall when more talks are scheduled, it won't happen until 2010 or 2011."

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 7):With parked 747´s sitting at LAX all day, they could easily do a tag-end service to YYZ.

As mentioned above they get maintenance done there on the 5 parked there and 1 goes to JFK, and other one 4X a week goes as the daylight flight back to SYD. JFK is probably the only one worth going due to Business demand and cargo. YYZ might not be worth the extra costs for QF.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 10):"Wherever in North America for JQ" certainly won't include Canada. There will be no agreement with Australia allowing JQ into Canada before their other bilateral issues are settled.

Of course not, as far as anything requiring a change/negotiation to the bilateral, but what about JQ, B787 BNE-SFO-YYZ? I belive that would be within the scope of the current bilateral.

NZ has recently announced that because of such good bookings it is going to make its new YVR-AKL service year-round rather than just seasonal. 3x weekly. YVR-AKL-SYD on NZ would almost certainly be faster and more pleasant than YVR-LAX-SYD.
Also from AKLNZ flies to MEL, ADL, BNE, PER , CNS and SYD giving many options as well as earning *A points. Not sure yet whether AC will codeshare on NZs new service.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 13):YVR-AKL-SYD on NZ would almost certainly be faster and more pleasant than YVR-LAX-SYD.

Certainly, but AC proposed service was YYZ-LAX-SYD, not YVR. Actually it was proposed to use LAX as a hub to funnel pax from various Canadian cities. YVR-HNL-LAX was to continue to operate. Now of course, AC has introduced YVR-SYD non stop. What they will do now when/if they get LAX-SYD permission is not yet known. My guess is that they will implement the LAX hub idea, what happens to SYD-YVR non stop I think rather depends on how much traffic AC gets from the mid west and east via LAX and whether that leaves YVR-SYD viable.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 14):Certainly, but AC proposed service was YYZ-LAX-SYD, not YVR.

Oh oops my mistake all those YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYs if you don't read carefully easy to miss it!
Well I have since taken the liberty to look both routes up and was quite surprised at how little difference there was between the two!
Now YYZ-LAX-SYD would involve clearing customs in YYZ, and in LAX and SYD as well as having to pick up and transfer your bags in LAX.YYZ-YVR-AKL-SYD would involve clearing customs at YVR and SYD only and bags could be transferred all the way thru without you having to do anything.
The distance is only an extra 704nm, but considering the time needed to clear customs in LAX and to transfer bags as well as the likely slower flight time YYZ-LAX (more congested airspace particularly coming into LAX as well as long taxi times and longer pushback times in LAX than YVR and the non-existant airport and airspace congestion in AKL), it may very well end up that they take the same amount of time. Interesting to note at least

Quoting ETA Unknown (Reply 8):QF has a maintenance base at LAX, so those 744's aren't just parked- if it was worth extending the flight (JFK operates primarily for cargo purposes) then trust me, QF would do it.

I've heard one of the reasons AA flies LAX-YYZ is for QF connections. If this is true, it would make a lot of sense; it's a lot less expensive to operate an AA 738 than a QF 744 LAX-YYZ.....

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 15):Now YYZ-LAX-SYD would involve clearing customs in YYZ, and in LAX and SYD as well as having to pick up and transfer your bags in LAX.

Why would you have to pick up bags and clear customs in LAX on a YYZ-LAX-SYD routing? After pre-clearing US customs at YYZ, YYZ-LAX is essentialy a US domestic flight.

On the return, again, why would SYD-YYZ pax need to clear customs at LAX? For a through flight, with the SYD-YYZ pax not deplaning at LAX, wouldn't all SYD-YYZ and LAX-YYZ simply clear customs upon arrival at YYZ?

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 15):Now YYZ-LAX-SYD would involve clearing customs in YYZ, and in LAX and SYD as well as having to pick up and transfer your bags in LAX.

No it wouldn't. Everyone pre-clears Customs in Canada for flights to the US. I'm fairly certain those people connecting on a flight to SYD at LAX would not have to pick up their bags again, any more than someone connecting from ORD would have to pick up their bags when connecting to SYD.

Quoting YOW (Reply 18):After pre-clearing US customs at YYZ, YYZ-LAX is essentialy a US domestic flight.

Quoting YOW (Reply 18):On the return, again, why would SYD-YYZ pax need to clear customs at LAX? For a through flight, with the SYD-YYZ pax not deplaning at LAX, wouldn't all SYD-YYZ and LAX-YYZ simply clear customs upon arrival at YYZ?

Using QF 73/74 as an example. Starting this month, when this flight continues from SFO onto YVR, all passengers disembark off the aircraft to clear U.S. Immigration, the luggage stays on the aircraft for those individuals continuing on the same flight. The same thing is true for NZ 1/2 out of LAX but a little different. Passengers continuing onto LHR disembark and are ushered into a room where a CBP Officer checks their passports. When the flight is ready to re-board, they are taken from the room to the plane. The U.S. does not have a traditional transit program like other countries.

I wonder if the party-pooper here is QF or actually UA. As a Star Alliance Sister, I think there is a very good probability that United is the fly in the ointment, not wanting AC diluting loads and profits, on what I suspect is a profitable route.

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 21):I wonder if the party-pooper here is QF or actually UA. As a Star Alliance Sister, I think there is a very good probability that United is the fly in the ointment, not wanting AC diluting loads and profits, on what I suspect is a profitable route.

United has nothing to do with bi-lateral treaties between the governments of Canada and Australia. And the US hasn't stood in the way of any foreign carrier starting fifth freedom routes (provided the requisite treaties are in place, of course).

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 22):United has nothing to do with bi-lateral treaties between the governments of Canada and Australia. And the US hasn't stood in the way of any foreign carrier starting fifth freedom routes (provided the requisite treaties are in place, of course).

The main trouble for this is coming form the OZ's. They are very protective of the LAX-SYD route overall.

Why does AC not just operate, YVR-SYD and YVRAKL daily and forget about LAX for now, they need to estabilsh demand in canada for this service first. Routing everything say YYZ-YVR-AKL/SYD, is going to be only a little longer then via LAX, as clearing customs in LAX, changing bags, and getting stuck on the runway.

Quoting YOW (Reply 18):Why would you have to pick up bags and clear customs in LAX on a YYZ-LAX-SYD routing? After pre-clearing US customs at YYZ, YYZ-LAX is essentialy a US domestic flight.

On the return, again, why would SYD-YYZ pax need to clear customs at LAX? For a through flight, with the SYD-YYZ pax not deplaning at LAX, wouldn't all SYD-YYZ and LAX-YYZ simply clear customs upon arrival at YYZ?

All pax arriving into LAX from an Intl flight have to clear customs and collect and transfer their bags with only a few exceptions (1 being NZ1/2 thru to LHR).

Quoting GoBlue (Reply 24):Why does AC not just operate, YVR-SYD and YVRAKL daily and forget about LAX for now, they need to estabilsh demand in canada for this service first. Routing everything say YYZ-YVR-AKL/SYD, is going to be only a little longer then via LAX, as clearing customs in LAX, changing bags, and getting stuck on the runway.

AUSTRALIA
Points of Origin: Australia
Intermediate Points: Fiji, Tahiti, Honolulu, San Francisco, a point to be agreed
Points in Canada: Vancouver, one other point in Canada to be named by Australia.
Points Beyond: None
Any point or points specified above may be omitted on any or all services, but all services shall originate or terminate in Australia.

CANADA
Points of Origin: Canada
Intermediate Points: San Francisco, Honolulu, Tahiti, Fiji, a point to be agreed
Points in Australia: Sydney. One other point in Australia to be named by Canada.
Points Beyond: None
Any point or points specified above may be omitted on any or all services, but all services shall originate or terminate in Canada.
1. The additional point in Australia to be named by Canada and the additional point in Canada to be named by Australia shall be any point with an airport designated for international operations.
2. Points to be named by either Contracting Party may be changed on 6 months notice given to the other Contracting Party.
---------------------------------------------------------

Canada has unlimited 5ths with the US. I'm not certain what 5ths Australia has - obviously SFO-YVR, but not certain if they could carry traffic ex LAX to any other Canadian city.

PA used to operate to JKT, SIN & BKK on regular services which connected with PA1 & 2 the round the world services in both directions. Some of the time they operated from Europe direct to Oz, other times you used PA1&2.

Thanks, I had thought the PA rtw services operated via the North Pacific (HKG). But since PA's rtw started in 1947 I suppose anything is possible - but I certainly wouldn't want to travel to JKT, SIN, BKK from the US West Coast via OZ!

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 25):All pax arriving into LAX from an Intl flight have to clear customs and collect and transfer their bags with only a few exceptions (1 being NZ1/2 thru to LHR).

I do not think all passengers have to collect bags if they are on a "thru" flight. I think they just have to clear Immigration. My partner & I flew on TN on the PPT-LAX leg of TN's PPT-LAX-CDG flight, and I know everyone had to get off the plane. However, the people continuing on to CDG went to a different area ("transit area") to clear Immigration, and as far as I could tell, none of them had to pick up their luggage.

Quoting Planetime (Reply 11):As mentioned above they get maintenance done there on the 5 parked there and 1 goes to JFK,

There's been a lot of talk about 5th freedoms in this thread, but do Qantas have local traffic rights on LAX-JFK? In other words are QF permitted to carry US domestic pax on this leg? This is normally cabotage. Or does the LAX-JFK leg simply carry through SYD pax and transfer pax at LAX from other QF flights?