So? That doesn't matter. The Jets don't get much pressure on the quarterback period and haven't for a long time. They've only achieved 40 sacks twice since Revis has been there, which isn't that great.

The Steelers have run zone blitz for years and have had a legitimate pass rush for years. They have (or had) the personnel and execute better.

See, you just think that these guys can't cover. No DB can cover forever. Put Darelle Revis on a team with a bad pass rush and he'll give up completions.

On the other hand, look at the 49ers DBs. Not a single elite talent among them, but they had a great defense due to the dominating pass rush. Look at the New York Giants in the 2011 playoffs. None of their DBs was an elite talent, but because of their pass rush, it turned them into respectable cover guys.

I guarantee you if the Patriots develop at least 2 good to elite pass rushers, those scrub DBs you watched the past two years will magically look like good cover players.

I cannot believe I am agreeing with you but in this case you are correct, a great pass rush can cover up a lot of holes in the secondary but that doesn't mean a great CB/S cannot make a difference when the pass rush is just so, so.
However, San Fran has some of the best pass rushers in the NFL, so their weaker secondary doesn't really affect them terribly and they will definitely be a top 5 defense if injuries don't cripple them.

I cannot believe I am agreeing with you but in this case you are correct, a great pass rush can cover up a lot of holes in the secondary but that doesn't mean a great CB/S cannot make a difference when the pass rush is just so, so.
However, San Fran has some of the best pass rushers in the NFL, so their weaker secondary doesn't really affect them terribly and they will definitely be a top 5 defense if injuries don't cripple them.

They have Justin Smith, who is the best 3-4 DE in football the past two years, and Aldon Smith, who is a good player who benefits greatly from Justin Smith. That's it, basically.

So my theory is : as Justin Smith is an older player, when he continues to decline, or suffers injuries, the pass rush will be gone.

DBs are more a product of the pass rush in front of them than vice versa.

Webster got old and Phillips was hurt, when he played he was still great and Rolle was good at doing what he could. Of course a pass rush helps but the Giants aren't a good example of DBs not being important when they had excellent DBs.

__________________
BK

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcheTen

JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.

Webster got old and Phillips was hurt, when he played he was still great and Rolle was good at doing what he could. Of course a pass rush helps but the Giants aren't a good example of DBs not being important when they had excellent DBs.

They had excellent DBs because of the pass rush.

Rolle, Webster, Ross and Amukamara are not great talents. They are mostly just solid players who benefit from (at times) playing behind one of the best pass rushes in the game the past few years.

Rolle, Webster, Ross and Amukamara are not great talents. They are mostly just solid players who benefit from (at times) playing behind one of the best pass rushes in the game the past few years.

Webster was an excellent, like top 5, CB in his prime. Rolle's one of the more versatile safeties in the league and Prince absolutely has great talent. So I have no clue what you're talking about. Our pass rush wasn't even that great in 2011, that was 2007 when we used a dominant pass rush to cover an unspectacular secondary, you picked the wrong giants team to talk out of your ass about.

BTW you need to make your mind up, either JPP is over-rated and not that good, or he's responsible for one of the best pass rushes in the game, can't be both.

__________________
BK

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcheTen

JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.

Rolle, Webster, Ross and Amukamara are not great talents. They are mostly just solid players who benefit from (at times) playing behind one of the best pass rushes in the game the past few years.

Massaging the facts to fit your argument?

Making this correlation of pass rush creating a secondary into an absolute causation is bordering on ridiculous. The term coverage sack would defy logic in that world.

Also some revisionist history on Rolle. How do you remember him? Guy worth the eighth overall pick in the draft? The guy overdrafted for CB at eight since it became more evident that S was his best position? Or the S overdrafted at eight because of the position not his talent?

Lastly? What do you make of the 2009 Jets? Pretty much unanimous pick for number one defense of that year, made it to the AFC championship game and all with very pedestrian sack numbers?

Webster was an excellent, like top 5, CB in his prime. Rolle's one of the more versatile safeties in the league and Prince absolutely has great talent. So I have no clue what you're talking about. Our pass rush wasn't even that great in 2011, that was 2007 when we used a dominant pass rush to cover an unspectacular secondary, you picked the wrong giants team to talk out of your ass about.

Um, the pass rush was good in 2011 regular season and tremendous in the 2011 postseason with both Tuck and Umenyiora having stellar resurgent games and Pierre Paul doing his usual high level run-stuffing solid pass rushing thing.

Quote:

BTW you need to make your mind up, either JPP is over-rated and not that good, or he's responsible for one of the best pass rushes in the game, can't be both.

It was mostly Tuck and Umenyiora doing the pass rush damage. Again, I don't think that Jason PIerre Paul is a bum. He's a very good player who happens to have elite run-stopping skills but only slightly above average pass rushing ability in terms of combined hits+hurries+sacks. He's not the "beast" everyone makes him out to be as a pass rusher.

Making this correlation of pass rush creating a secondary into an absolute causation is bordering on ridiculous. The term coverage sack would defy logic in that world.

Also some revisionist history on Rolle. How do you remember him? Guy worth the eighth overall pick in the draft? The guy overdrafted for CB at eight since it became more evident that S was his best position? Or the S overdrafted at eight because of the position not his talent?

Wow, so when did someone's draft slot become a firm indicator of their ability to play the game? If that was the case there would be no draft misses, right?

Quote:

Lastly? What do you make of the 2009 Jets? Pretty much unanimous pick for number one defense of that year, made it to the AFC championship game and all with very pedestrian sack numbers?

Ever heard of the term "outlier"? And even so, that year, Trevor Pryce and Rex Ryan's schemes did some nice stuff in terms of QB pressures that didn't necessarily turn into sacks.

You think adding a poor run defender in Dumervil will help the run defense? Honestly, I think people are overrating the Dumervil addition. He disappears(where was he in the playoff game?), and a liability against the run. Plus, his game is predicated on speed, you lose speed over time.

Rahim Moore actually plays that ball correctly, its an interception, and at worst it sets the Ravens up with a 4th down and 3 I think it was with about 30 seconds remaining in the game, and no timeouts.
Not to mention that pick 6 you point out, Decker was interferred with and it was not called.
I just find it ridiculous saying you would take 10 QB's over Peyton in the playoffs. Name them, please. Tell me what QB's you would take over Peyton in the playoffs.
Every team has a hole here or there, but Denver's team is right up there in terms of talent with everybody.

Yes, he misplayed it. Not debating it. But like I said, correctly playing an 80 yard Joe Flacco bomb is not as easy as you think. Flacco throws straight moonshots and theyre not that easy to judge. He shoulda made the play, but its not like it was the easiest play to make. And talking about the PI on the pick 6 lol, that was borderline at best, that flag isnt supposed to be thrown in the playoffs. It was a bad throw either way, he threw it into traffic.

Maybe Im stretching it a little bit with Wilson, RG3 and Newton cuz theyre still pretty unproven. But I asbolutely stand by the first 8. And before you argue otherwise, go take a look at Peytons career playoff stats. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/...peyton-manning

And bear in mind, those paint a better picture for Peyton than it really is. Peyton has a habit of blowing out weak teams in the first round in the first round and then completely choking when he meets a real contender in the next round. IMO, part of the problem is that a lot of the stuff Peyton relies on works real well in the regular season, but just doesnt fly in the playoffs against other elite teams when the intensity is ratcheted up. And I just dont see him rise to the occasion.

The Broncos are not going to be winning any superbowls with Peyton. Go ahead and mark it down. While his accuracy, football IQ, and touch still translates, his arm strength isnt what it was, and its very apparant at times. They do a have a great young receiver core, a premier LT who is very young, and the best young pass-rusher in the game, so if they bring in another good QB after Peyton and fill out the roster properly, I could see them winning a SB with this core of players.

Seconds left on the game clock, no time outs, with your team near your own end zone, needing a touchdown just to tie the game, is absolutely not an "opportunity to pull off the win at the end".

That should be, in 99.99999999% of situations, a sure loss for that team. I literally don't think I've ever seen a game won by a team in that situation in all of my years of watching football prior to last year's playoffs.

It's literally the flukiest win by any football team I've ever personally witnessed.

lol you must not have watched a lot of football of football in your life cuz i have seen so many crazier things happen....this isnt even near the top of the list of flukiest wins. and its nowhere near 99%.

music city miracle...cal's hook and ladder play...those are the unthinkable ones. The Ravens had the ball at their own 23 with 1:09 left in the game and their QB has the strongest arm in the game and they have some of the best deep ball receivers in the game. There really wasnt anything that flukey about it. Torrey Smith undoubtedly drew a lot of attention on the other side of the field, Anquan Boldin probably drew plenty of attention, on some sideline route, Jacoby Jones burned his man, and the deep safety misplayed a long bomb. Its not that crazy.

2. Pats - SB or AFCCCG too many times for me to count. As long as they have Brady they'll be a top 3 team.

3. San Fran - losing Crabs sucks, but they are a well coached and highly talented team. Jenkins could be ready to step up for Crabs, you already have a great run game and OL, a freak TE, Boldin, and too much is being made of the secondary. Cox and Aso were good signings and since Aso is a west coast guy I think he'll bounce back in a big way--PB status type of a way.

4. Green Bay - When you have Arod you don't need much else to be great, but he can't do it all. Additions to the run game and D should help, especially in the playoffs where he needs a more balanced attack.

5. Atl - Matt Ryan has all his weapons back and added Sjax. He's the perfect back for that system and will have a monster year. The D is about the same and Adding Trufant should help their secondary.

6. New Orleans - Brees will be Brees and if the D can do anything they'll always be tough to beat, particularly with SP back.

7. Seattle - there is no denying the talent on that team but a lot of people seem to forget they were a half catch away from 9-7 last year too. And as far as Wilson, love the guy, but I find it hard to believe he'll take a huge step forward, simply because if he does he'll basically be Arod. If he can maintain what he did last year I'll conder that pretty awesome, kind of like Cam last year. Almost identical stats (aside from Rushing TD's and people act like he took a step back). When you set the bar so high as a Rookie expectations become unrealistic. I think Wilson is a helluva QB but I'm not sure I see a production leap that puts them as the best team in the NFL (there will be one though). San Fran was about to make the SB with Smith so we know that team is capable all around and is exactly why they are at 3 and not lower, like Seattle. I need one year of dominance to truly buy in.

8. Washington - no clue how RG3 is doing explosive cutting and looking to be ready for camp after destroying his knee but he is and that's not good for the rest of the NFC... Another guy with a high bar to get over in his sophomore season but he also has the highest ceiling in my eyes as well. The team around him isn't as good as the others (how could they be with losing $36M over 2 years), but with all their guys coming back from injury, solid draft, and being able to keep most of their starters, this team is going to be tough to beat week to week. The thing is that they have a terribly tough schedule so I could easily see them missing the playoffs.

9. Baltimore - they lost peices, but gained some and I trust their FO and staff to make the transition as seamless as possible. Winning the SB overrates them a bit but just goes to show you, once you make the playoffs anything can happen.

10. Texans - they are a solid all round team who added some weapons and play well every week. They maybe a bit underrated here but if everyone stays healthy they could make a Baltesque run at the SB next year.

Last edited by Guru : 06-25-2013 at 12:09 PM.
Reason: Corrected from Grimes mistake. Missed him moving on thought he signed a one year deal with them for some reason. Gd catch!

Yes, he misplayed it. Not debating it. But like I said, correctly playing an 80 yard Joe Flacco bomb is not as easy as you think. Flacco throws straight moonshots and theyre not that easy to judge. He shoulda made the play, but its not like it was the easiest play to make. And talking about the PI on the pick 6 lol, that was borderline at best, that flag isnt supposed to be thrown in the playoffs. It was a bad throw either way, he threw it into traffic.

Maybe Im stretching it a little bit with Wilson, RG3 and Newton cuz theyre still pretty unproven. But I asbolutely stand by the first 8. And before you argue otherwise, go take a look at Peytons career playoff stats. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/...peyton-manning

And bear in mind, those paint a better picture for Peyton than it really is. Peyton has a habit of blowing out weak teams in the first round in the first round and then completely choking when he meets a real contender in the next round. IMO, part of the problem is that a lot of the stuff Peyton relies on works real well in the regular season, but just doesnt fly in the playoffs against other elite teams when the intensity is ratcheted up. And I just dont see him rise to the occasion.

The Broncos are not going to be winning any superbowls with Peyton. Go ahead and mark it down. While his accuracy, football IQ, and touch still translates, his arm strength isnt what it was, and its very apparant at times. They do a have a great young receiver core, a premier LT who is very young, and the best young pass-rusher in the game, so if they bring in another good QB after Peyton and fill out the roster properly, I could see them winning a SB with this core of players.

2. Pats - SB or AFCCCG too many times for me to count. As long as they have Brady they'll be a top 3 team.

3. San Fran - losing Crabs sucks, but they are a well coached and highly talented team. Jenkins could be ready to step up for Crabs, you already have a great run game and OL, a freak TE, Boldin, and too much is being made of the secondary. Cox and Aso were good signings and since Aso is a west coast guy I think he'll bounce back in a big way--PB status type of a way.

4. Green Bay - When you have Arod you don't need much else to be great, but he can't do it all. Additions to the run game and D should help, especially in the playoffs where he needs a more balanced attack.

5. Atl - Matt Ryan has all his weapons back and added Sjax. He's the perfect back for that system and will have a monster year. The D is about the same and Grimes is back so that should help their secondary.

6. New Orleans - Brees will be Brees and if the D can do anything they'll always be tough to beat, particularly with SP back.

7. Seattle - there is no denying the talent on that team but a lot of people seem to forget they were a half catch away from 9-7 last year too. And as far as Wilson, love the guy, but I find it hard to believe he'll take a huge step forward, simply because if he does he'll basically be Arod. If he can maintain what he did last year I'll conder that pretty awesome, kind of like Cam last year. Almost identical stats (aside from Rushing TD's and people act like he took a step back). When you set the bar so high as a Rookie expectations become unrealistic. I think Wilson is a helluva QB but I'm not sure I see a production leap that puts them as the best team in the NFL (there will be one though). San Fran was about to make the SB with Smith so we know that team is capable all around and is exactly why they are at 3 and not lower, like Seattle. I need one year of dominance to truly buy in.

8. Washington - no clue how RG3 is doing explosive cutting and looking to be ready for camp after destroying his knee but he is and that's not good for the rest of the NFC... Another guy with a high bar to get over in his sophomore season but he also has the highest ceiling in my eyes as well. The team around him isn't as good as the others (how could they be with losing $36M over 2 years), but with all their guys coming back from injury, solid draft, and being able to keep most of their starters, this team is going to be tough to beat week to week. The thing is that they have a terribly tough schedule so I could easily see them missing the playoffs.

9. Baltimore - they lost peices, but gained some and I trust their FO and staff to make the transition as seamless as possible. Winning the SB overrates them a bit but just goes to show you, once you make the playoffs anything can happen.

10. Texans - they are a solid all round team who added some weapons and play well every week. They maybe a bit underrated here but if everyone stays healthy they could make a Baltesque run at the SB next year.

I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.

2. Pats - SB or AFCCCG too many times for me to count. As long as they have Brady they'll be a top 3 team.

3. San Fran - losing Crabs sucks, but they are a well coached and highly talented team. Jenkins could be ready to step up for Crabs, you already have a great run game and OL, a freak TE, Boldin, and too much is being made of the secondary. Cox and Aso were good signings and since Aso is a west coast guy I think he'll bounce back in a big way--PB status type of a way.

4. Green Bay - When you have Arod you don't need much else to be great, but he can't do it all. Additions to the run game and D should help, especially in the playoffs where he needs a more balanced attack.

5. Atl - Matt Ryan has all his weapons back and added Sjax. He's the perfect back for that system and will have a monster year. The D is about the same and Grimes is back so that should help their secondary.

6. New Orleans - Brees will be Brees and if the D can do anything they'll always be tough to beat, particularly with SP back.

7. Seattle - there is no denying the talent on that team but a lot of people seem to forget they were a half catch away from 9-7 last year too. And as far as Wilson, love the guy, but I find it hard to believe he'll take a huge step forward, simply because if he does he'll basically be Arod. If he can maintain what he did last year I'll conder that pretty awesome, kind of like Cam last year. Almost identical stats (aside from Rushing TD's and people act like he took a step back). When you set the bar so high as a Rookie expectations become unrealistic. I think Wilson is a helluva QB but I'm not sure I see a production leap that puts them as the best team in the NFL (there will be one though). San Fran was about to make the SB with Smith so we know that team is capable all around and is exactly why they are at 3 and not lower, like Seattle. I need one year of dominance to truly buy in.

8. Washington - no clue how RG3 is doing explosive cutting and looking to be ready for camp after destroying his knee but he is and that's not good for the rest of the NFC... Another guy with a high bar to get over in his sophomore season but he also has the highest ceiling in my eyes as well. The team around him isn't as good as the others (how could they be with losing $36M over 2 years), but with all their guys coming back from injury, solid draft, and being able to keep most of their starters, this team is going to be tough to beat week to week. The thing is that they have a terribly tough schedule so I could easily see them missing the playoffs.

So you think the best 2 teams are in the AFC, but 6 of the best 8 are in the NFC.
I like that.....

I can't argue against Atlanta being the best team in the NFC.
They were this close last year, and added a great RB.

I see them going 13-3 and getting the #1 seed, as they did in 2010.
When they were then blown out at home in their first playoff game.
But they didn't have Jackson then, or Julio Jones. And the opponents had Nick Collins then, not now.
Atlanta is my Super Bowl pick from the NFC at the moment.

AFC, I like a Cinderella story with Kansas City with new QB Alex Smith.

1. San Fransisco: Event without Crabtree, the Niners have the deepest team. Kap is only going to get better.
2. Denver: Broncos have built a win now team around Peyton and it's a strong one. Should be the team to beat in the AFC.
3. Seattle: I like what they've done. Very strong and physical football team. Wilson is the key.
4. New England: Tom Brady will not miss a beat, regardless of missing their two TEs.
5. Atlanta: Toe to Toe with the Niners in the NFC Champ. Game. With that fire power on offense, will definately be among the elite.
6. Baltimore: Sure they lost a lot, but they're still going to be in the thick of things. Flacco is a franchise QB. And Harbaugh will have the rest of this team prepared.
7. Green Bay: The offense led by Rodgers will always make them Super Bowl contenders. However, it's the defense that has me hesitant to make them higher.
8. New York Giants: I was hesitant with making the Redskins the favorites here in the NFC East. I think the Giants struggled a bit from a hangover last year. I think they're still the team to beat in the NFC East.
9. Cincinatti: Love their young talent that is continuing to develop. I think Dalton takes the next step with more experience. People forget he's in his 3rd year and he's been very good so far.
10. Washington: If RG III is healthy, they should be a playoff contender. I was a bit hesitant to put them this high but time will tell.

Outside: New Orleans: Many think Sean Payton returning will immediately make them playoff contenders. I look at the moves they made on defense to improve and didn't see any, especially from switching to a 3-4 without the proper personal for it.

Talking about this "I'd take blah blah blah" over Peyton in the playoffs is bushit and this is why. It's the ultimate team game. One person can only give you so much and the other factors play a bigger part collectively and the sample sizes so small that it's all just really bull crap in the end. Brady is an Adam Vinatiere(sp?) from being Jim Kelly and a few lucky plays on the other end from being above Montana and the GOAT without much of a debate.

In a sport like football where so many variables exist and the sample sizes so small (particularly in post season play) that taking one QB over another in the playoffs isn't really saying anything but your preference or a nonsensical view of limited sample size. You give Manning AV instead of Vandershnk and things are different. Give him a Steelers D and what's the most logical result?

I mean, you guys have seen the results. There's a lot of variance, a lot of factors, and a lot of good to great QB's with mixed results. It's not easy to win a SB and not necessarily an indicator of greatness. It's a lot of things rolled into a perfect storm that no one can really quantify. Opinions are really the only things we have in the end and with that no one will ever be %100 right. But it will always be debatable because of the fact that it's all circumstantial, time based, and weighted so that's my view I guess.

Now that the draft is done, but preseason/training camps not starting yet. It looks like:
1. Seattle (Really like them, though not a fan of Lynch this year.)
2. Denver (Manning and a still really good Defense)
3. San Francisco (Yeah Crabtree's gone, but this team is still loaded)
4. New England (Replace Welker with possibly better talent, if healthy)
5. Atlanta (If Jackson is good still and Trufant has an early impact, This could be #1)
6. Green Bay (They may finally have a running game, but will the trenches hold up?)
7. Baltimore (If this draft is as good as it looks on the outset, they have a nice year ahead, even if Flacco becomes the old Flacco.)
8. New York Giants (JPP healthy again, Manning still has his weapons, and Wilson could break out. Just have the secondary to worry about.)
9. New Orleans (Payton is back, and they are trying to get a defense out there that works)
10. Indianapolis (Of the teams new to the playoffs last year, I say Indy has the most staying power. 95% of my opinion is Luck.)

Sleeper: Carolina (They have Star Power, but they still feel a little bone-dry to me)
Slumper: Houston (Schaub and Andre are not getting any younger, and the AFC South is much better this year.)