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Topic: Name change (Read 4503 times)

Me and my fiance (both Greek Orthodox) are less than six months away from our wedding and while we were at her house going over wedding planning stuff she mentioned to me how she plans to keep her last name and not change and take my family name. Call me old fashion but I assumed that it was a given that she would change her name. When i pressed her for why she came up with all sorts of reasons like her career and the established contacts she has, and that her sister never changed her name either.

Now you could call me old-fashion but is there something wrong a woman not taking her husband's name? I said to her if God-willing we have children what would there last name be she replied that they're take my last name but she wasn't changing her. The thought of having children where they would have a different last name than there mother really scares me.

Does anyone know if the Church has an opinion on this? Can anyone recall if the Fathers have said?

Hmm, I don't know. There are cultures/countries in the world where the wife does not take the name of the husband, but I'm not sure if any of these cultures/countries are Orthodox. I'm sure Ialmisry or others who have traveled or are more knowledgable would have a better idea about that. But if I can ask, why are you scared about your kids having a different name than their mother? It does complicate matters, I think, as I know from personal experience (e.g. at one point my sister, mother and I all lived in the same house but had three different last names). However, in this day and age (with so many divorces and remarriages) most people you'll meet probably wouldn't even think twice about children having a different name than a parent.

Welcome to the forum!I doubt the Church has any opinion on this, since surnames are actually a relatively recent invention and differs across cultures. If you were in Iceland, for instance, your children would not have the same surname as either you or your wife. Assuming your first name is "Steve", your son would be surnamed "Stevesson" ("Steve's son") and your daughter would be surnamed "Stevesdottir" ("Steve's Daughter"). This is actually the origin of surnames like "Johnson" etc.

EDIT:Also, in the Orthodox Church, only one name is important- our Baptisimal name. You can give a child as many names as you like, but only one name will be their Baptisimal name- which is the name by which God knows us. When the Church prays for people in the Liturgy or Memorial services, they are commemorated by their one Baptisimal name only, we never commemorate the Faithful by surname.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 05:43:50 PM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Me and my fiance (both Greek Orthodox) are less than six months away from our wedding and while we were at her house going over wedding planning stuff she mentioned to me how she plans to keep her last name and not change and take my family name. Call me old fashion but I assumed that it was a given that she would change her name. When i pressed her for why she came up with all sorts of reasons like her career and the established contacts she has, and that her sister never changed her name either.

Now you could call me old-fashion but is there something wrong a woman not taking her husband's name? I said to her if God-willing we have children what would there last name be she replied that they're take my last name but she wasn't changing her. The thought of having children where they would have a different last name than there mother really scares me.

Does anyone know if the Church has an opinion on this? Can anyone recall if the Fathers have said?

1. Welcome to the forum.

2. Echoing what ozgeorge said, surnames don't matter in Orthodoxy. If in the secular world, your fiancee's surname is more recognizable than yours, the issue becomes one of your coveting and pride, not your love for your fiancee. The issue is best discussed with the Priest who will officiate at the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony and not on this Internet forum.

3. There are more things to worry about than whether or not your fiancee will take your surname or not.

SolEX01 - I agree that there are more important things to worry about than a surname and your right I will need to discuss this with my spiritual Father but doesn't the Orthodox Church teaches that the husband is the head of the family, the spiritual head of the home Church. The assuming of one name is symbolic of the two people becoming "one flesh". The Church has always placed great significance upon names. In fact, not only are names of great import in the Church, but the actual process of naming someone holds great significance to us. These customs are of divine origin and of tremendous significance, but unfortunately are not a part of modern North American culture. The significance of names and naming is one area where Orthodox Tradition will inevitably effect the North American practice, and is also an area where we must be on guard of the reverse effect and of allowing North American culture to rob the Church of meaningful and universal customs.

Again call me old fashioned but one of the marks of the inroads of unhealthy feminism in our culture is the wife's rejection of the husband's name. I think this is a reflection of non-Christian family norms, and is not an Orthodox practice.

I was born in Quebec, so I am used to women deciding to retain their surname after marriage. When we moved to Ontario (when I was still fairly young), I assumed a man and a woman with identical surnames were brother and sister rather than husband and wife. All I can say is I thought Ontario had a lot of incestuous families... The tradition is cultural, and it just happens that in most Orthodox nations, women assumed their husband's surname. There is nothing sanctified about it.

Women should be able to keep their surname, or assume / change to their husband's surname. Of course, I would argue that it should be easier for a husband to assume (different than a legal change) his wife's surname if he wishes, but that discussion is for another time.

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

SolEX01 - I agree that there are more important things to worry about than a surname and your right I will need to discuss this with my spiritual Father but doesn't the Orthodox Church teaches that the husband is the head of the family, the spiritual head of the home Church. The assuming of one name is symbolic of the two people becoming "one flesh". The Church has always placed great significance upon names. In fact, not only are names of great import in the Church, but the actual process of naming someone holds great significance to us. These customs are of divine origin and of tremendous significance, but unfortunately are not a part of modern North American culture. The significance of names and naming is one area where Orthodox Tradition will inevitably effect the North American practice, and is also an area where we must be on guard of the reverse effect and of allowing North American culture to rob the Church of meaningful and universal customs.

Again call me old fashioned but one of the marks of the inroads of unhealthy feminism in our culture is the wife's rejection of the husband's name. I think this is a reflection of non-Christian family norms, and is not an Orthodox practice.

Actually, wishing to keep one's family name has nothing to do with unhealthy feminism and I wonder why it ever became the norm for a woman to have to lose that link with her father's family in the first place. Why does the husband being the head of the family mean that the wife has to lose connection with her name? In Ancient Rome, married Christian women kept their father's name in feminised form. Really, why did it change?

How about a compromise? Would your future wife being open to hyphenating her maiden name with your surname?

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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

My mother never changed her last name. In fact, when I'm with my cousins here in the US, who are pretty much my mother's sisters' children, we call ourselves the "Raghebs" even though we all have different last names.

There's nothing really in a name except identification. I consider my parents really good parents regardless of last names or first for that matter. Our mother was just as involved with our lives as our father, and both, as far we my sister and I experienced, were good to each other up until the present.

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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

We have discussed this but she's not thrilled with the idea of hyphenating. To tell you the truth i don't either. I know a lot of people are doing this and it seems to be the norm but what happens down the road when your child is ready to marry someone who also has a hyphenated name? Will they accept a name with two hyphenates and twenty-something characters on their surname? That just get's even more complicated IMO.

I don't think it would matter, but as for yourself don't be personally offended My fiancee and I both have unpronounceable names so I just don't see the point in taking his--it's nothing to do with my submission towards him in matrimony.

The Church, as stated earlier, is concerned only with the Baptisimal name, not the surname.

Let's say my baptismal name is Antonios, and I'm going to get married (and I barely used Antonios). Does the EO Church use "Mina" or "Antonios" in the marriage ceremony?

Your Baptisimal name (Antonios) would be used, as it would when you receive any other Sacrament ("The Servant of God Antonios Communes of the Body and Blood of Christ to the forgiveness of sin and Eternal Life").

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

The Church, as stated earlier, is concerned only with the Baptisimal name, not the surname.

Let's say my baptismal name is Antonios, and I'm going to get married (and I barely used Antonios). Does the EO Church use "Mina" or "Antonios" in the marriage ceremony?

Your Baptisimal name (Antonios) would be used, as it would when you receive any other Sacrament ("The Servant of God Antonios Communes of the Body and Blood of Christ to the forgiveness of sin and Eternal Life").

Let's say I'm consecrated as Reader Michael, is it now Michael or Antonios that they use (yes, they are my names...lol!)

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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

I think there is an underlying issue that should be addressed before the flowers are ordered. It appears that old-fashioned Steve and his career-conscious fiancée are only now becoming aware of their conflicting traditional and progressive views of marriage. If I were their premarital counselor, I'd recommend a temporary halt to the wedding plans in favor of an honest discussion of what marriage looks like to each of them 5-, 10-, and 25-years from now. The name change issue may be a simple matter of compromise, or it may be the proverbial tip of the iceberg.

I'm getting married soon and won't be taking my husband's name. Initially, I thought (like you), that it would be the nice thing to do, to show we were a family. I'd call myself a feminist, but I don't see it as a feminist issue - I just rather looked forward to the idea of having the same name as my husband.

However, I've now just started out in what I hope will be my career, and people know me by my maiden name. I've realized from my own experiences that it is *very* hard to trace someone who's changed name. You don't need to be a hard-nosed careerist to suffer from the fall-out.

So, what I will do is to keep my own name for work (so if I have a paper published, it will be under my maiden name). But I will be 'Mrs Husbands'Name' in everyday life. Perhaps your wife-to-be would consider something like that?

Apparently, this was the old French practice, still at use in places like Egypt where there was once a French presence. So, a woman who is born Elizabeth Smith will always be Elizabeth Smith. But if she marries Mr Jones, when she is called by her married title, she is Mrs Jones.

The Church, as stated earlier, is concerned only with the Baptisimal name, not the surname.

Let's say my baptismal name is Antonios, and I'm going to get married (and I barely used Antonios). Does the EO Church use "Mina" or "Antonios" in the marriage ceremony?

Your Baptisimal name (Antonios) would be used, as it would when you receive any other Sacrament ("The Servant of God Antonios Communes of the Body and Blood of Christ to the forgiveness of sin and Eternal Life").

Let's say I'm consecrated as Reader Michael, is it now Michael or Antonios that they use (yes, they are my names...lol!)

Our son's godfather was baptized Symeon. But when Bishop Joseph tonsured him a reader he tonsured him Jeremiah because his birth name is actually Jeremy. So now we call him Reader Jeremiah-Symeon.

And to the original poster- if it is important to you that your wife take your name then you both need to discuss the issue until it is resolved. Both of you need to be comfortable with this issue before you wed. I am not saying that she must take your name or that she should keep her own. But this is the sort of issue that can tear a marriage apart from the inside if it isn't dealt with. I took my husband's name. I had a horrible hyphenated last name from both my biological and step father. When I wed I was gleefully happy to get rid of the hyphenated last name. This issue must be decided NOW before you have children. I know a couple where the girls have the wife's last name and the boys have the husband's. Or you can change her name so that she has her current last name has her middle name. When you get married you can BOTH change your name to whatever you like.

This could be a symptom of a deeper issue (I won't expound on what it could be). But you both need to sit down and think of what is important about either option. If her plan is to establish a career and keep at it until retirement and you had thought she would work until you start having kids then you don't have the same long term plans. Make sure that your long term plans are at least headed in the same direction before you wed. Those plans can change. (Ours did, we never planned to have children and here we are 4 kids later). But then the plans can change together rather then each of you hope the other will join them on their path.

I wanted to point out that, although Quinault and others who worry this issue may be symptomatic of deeper problems have a valid point, you might find that this is something you come to see as a non-issue in time. I'd always worry that points of disagreement within a couple might be problematic further down the line, but I think it's important to say that a disagreement now doesn't always point to problems later. There are certainly things in my relationship that I thought would be huge problems, which people warned me might well be huge problems -- but they weren't, because my partner and I both found our attitudes shifting as we got closer to marriage.

You never know - your fiancee might even find she feels more like taking your name as she gets more used to the idea.

I wanted to point out that, although Quinault and others who worry this issue may be symptomatic of deeper problems have a valid point, you might find that this is something you come to see as a non-issue in time. I'd always worry that points of disagreement within a couple might be problematic further down the line, but I think it's important to say that a disagreement now doesn't always point to problems later. There are certainly things in my relationship that I thought would be huge problems, which people warned me might well be huge problems -- but they weren't, because my partner and I both found our attitudes shifting as we got closer to marriage.

You never know - your fiancee might even find she feels more like taking your name as she gets more used to the idea.

Excuse me if I missed something, but aren't you unmarried still? The issues that come up after marriage are not issues that come up even with years of dating. All this to say- you don't know how big little things can be until after you actually wed.

I wanted to point out that, although Quinault and others who worry this issue may be symptomatic of deeper problems have a valid point, you might find that this is something you come to see as a non-issue in time. I'd always worry that points of disagreement within a couple might be problematic further down the line, but I think it's important to say that a disagreement now doesn't always point to problems later. There are certainly things in my relationship that I thought would be huge problems, which people warned me might well be huge problems -- but they weren't, because my partner and I both found our attitudes shifting as we got closer to marriage.

You never know - your fiancee might even find she feels more like taking your name as she gets more used to the idea.

Excuse me if I missed something, but aren't you unmarried still? The issues that come up after marriage are not issues that come up even with years of dating.

Of course. I'm aware you and others have much more experience to draw upon. And if no-one had raised the point to Steve that he should think carefully about what this disagreement might be symptomatic of, then I would have done so: it is an important point to think about. But I also feel aware that there are so many issues that long-married couples have probably already forgotten they even disagreed about, the things that just cease to be at issue. If I read it correctly, Steve is (like me) planning a marriage, and having to work out whether or not disagreements are healthy differences, or problems. So that's where my perspective comes from!

I will say that all the "little things" that bug you before you are married if left unresolved become big black holes in relationships. We often "let it go" or decide to "agree to disagree" and if feels like it is all OK. And it will be OK for awhile. But things that you thought were resolved/dealt with, will often crop up to bite you again months, even years after you are married.

I will say that all the "little things" that bug you before you are married if left unresolved become big black holes in relationships. We often "let it go" or decide to "agree to disagree" and if feels like it is all OK. And it will be OK for awhile. But things that you thought were resolved/dealt with, will often crop up to bite you again months, even years after you are married.

I'm genuinely curious now: is there nothing you and your husband disagree over? Are all your preferences the same?

My husband and I rarely disagree on anything for long. We talk thru each instance and if we don't agree, we can find a place where we can at least understand and agree with the logic of the other person. Typically then we will come to an agreement. When it comes to anything on a personal level, we agree. More global issues we can disagree on, but on personal issues we always agree.

My husband and I rarely disagree on anything for long. We talk thru each instance and if we don't agree, we can find a place where we can at least understand and agree with the logic of the other person. Typically then we will come to an agreement. When it comes to anything on a personal level, we agree. More global issues we can disagree on, but on personal issues we always agree.

That sounds like a good way to be. I guess I'd feel the same for the OP: as long as they can talk it through and understand where each other is coming from, it shouldn't be a big problem.

Sorry if I offended you by commenting on someone's relationship without being married, btw.

No offense whatsoever, I just don't want people to "make peace" for the sake of a relationship now, only to have a marriage in disarray later. Marriages don't fall apart due to big catastrophic issues. It is the little things that turn into catastrophes down the line that destroy a marriage. Think of all the little issues in your relationship as pieces of straw, eventually all the little things will collapse the marriage and be "the straw that broke the camels back." Individually they are nothing, cumulatively they can break a marriage. Each little issue worked thru brings you closer together. Conflicts resolved fairly only fertilize a healthy marriage.

My husband and I like to say; "Talking is more important than sleeping."

No offense whatsoever, I just don't want people to "make peace" for the sake of a relationship now, only to have a marriage in disarray later. Marriages don't fall apart due to big catastrophic issues. It is the little things that turn into catastrophes down the line that destroy a marriage. Think of all the little issues in your relationship as pieces of straw, eventually all the little things will collapse the marriage and be "the straw that broke the camels back." Individually they are nothing, cumulatively they can break a marriage. Each little issue worked thru brings you closer together. Conflicts resolved fairly only fertilize a healthy marriage.

My husband and I like to say; "Talking is more important than sleeping."

Perhaps so. Mind you, I also know that my grandparents (married for over 50 years, faithful until my grandfather died), would say that small disagreements are the spice of life, the things that ensure you've got some genuine passion as well as simple companionship. It's just difficult to know what constitutes a 'small' disagreement!

To my mind a "small" disagreement would be what route to take home or what music to listen to during the drive. Or essentially anything that has both both no long term implications and no personal investment by either party-or what I mentioned earlier as "global issues." A large disagreement would be what last name a wife or children should take or what careers you each choose. Or basically anything that has either of you personally invested and would have long term implications, these would be "personal issues." Either party may feel passionately about their position on both sets of issues. The first examples of disagreements could lead to a playful "fight" that ends with agreeing to disagree, (and a fun "make up" later ) the second examples of disagreements could lead to hurt feelings and resentment later if left trying to agree to disagree.

To my mind a "small" disagreement would be what route to take home. A large disagreement would be what last name a wife should take. Either party may feel passionately about their position on both issues. The first disagreement could lead to a playful "fight" that ends with agreeing to disagree, the second could lead to hurt feelings and resentment later if left trying to agree to disagree.

Sure, but obviously that's personal to your marriage. What will be difficult for people like me, or like Steve, is finding out what our own 'large' issues are.