There should be no way Buell hears this first report to include Lee's name.2:43 pm cst WBAP's David Daniel interrupts for word from Dallas Police of the arrest of "a 24-year-old man, Lee H. Oswald" in connection with the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit. He's being questioned to see if he has any connection with JFK assassination. "Oswald was pulled screaming and yelling" from the Texas Theater in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. After a pistol is taken from him during a scuffle, he's quoted as saying, "It's all over now."

Mick Purdy wrote:Is there any reliable way of knowing when Frazier left the TSBD? He could have seen or heard about the discovery of the bag.

No theres not but I'm laying money on the fact that Wes hung around long enough to know that the sack had been planted

He has lied for 53 years about his whereabouts after the assassination....he is IMO not a victim in this.

He went MIA after the assassination and didn't really surface officially anyway until around 5-6.00pm. And don't forget Linnie Mae gave false statements to the police regarding his whereabouts too

A few months after his WC testimony, Frazier was interviewed by William Manchester. On page 355 of the paper back edition of Death of a President, is this passage: "Wesley Frazier, who had driven Lee Oswald and his rifle into downtown Dallas five hours earlier, calmly polished off his lunch in the Book Depository and then, realising that there could be no further work in the growing turmoil. drove back to Irving

Not sure if this is anymore reliable than anything else, but I am still struck by the similarities between what Oswald allegedly said in custody and Frazier was claiming about himself. Here, the comparison is in Frazier saying he left because he realized there could be no further work in the "growing turmoil".

Lunch: gave the same or very similar details of the lunch they brought AND how they brought it - both said a sandwich and an apple in a sack either beside them in the car or between their legs.

Both claimed to eat alone - Oswald in DR and Frazier in the basement.

I have no idea what to make of such coincidences.

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin

McAdams says twice that it was taken outside at 2:19 - he uses this to argue that police didn't have time to fake it.

I should use more reliable sources.

lol.

And isn't that the mistake that all these guys make, assuming the cops would've faked everything , near as I can tell a lot of the stuff was put in front of their noses and they just followed the scent.....they were lazy and crooked it would've been a cakewalk to have them follow the trail that was laid out imo

I believe the bag was made by Day and Studebaker on the first floor sometime before 2pm. It was made as a wrapper with the intention to transport the rifle to the crime lab but Day got second thoughts. It later was moved, likely by Studebaker back to the 6th floor where it was "discovered". The stick inside the bag was likely the window sill piece removed for fingerprinting. In that aspect it explains why Montgomery was not concerned about stuff falling out the bag. They left the building at 3pm....a closeup of the watch shows this. Tony Fratini has put all the pieces together on this at Duncan's forum in the thread entitled CE142 What the flap...

As for Linnie May and Frazier I believe the time that Rose, Adamchek etc arrived was much earlier. Check the local cops timing.....there is no way they sat in a car waiting for 40 minutes for them to arrive.

Frazier also has missing time, he likely went home and was totally aware of his predicament. He may have even known while driving home listening to the radio. The plan was to send him to see the abusive step-father to buy time and cook up a story so he could avoid involvement.

Colin Crow wrote:I believe the bag was made by Day and Studebaker on the first floor sometime before 2pm. It was made as a wrapper with the intention to transport the rifle to the crime lab but Day got second thoughts. It later was moved, likely by Studebaker back to the 6th floor where it was "discovered". The stick inside the bag was likely the window sill piece removed for fingerprinting. In that aspect it explains why Montgomery was not concerned about stuff falling out the bag. They left the building at 3pm....a closeup of the watch shows this. Tony Fratini has put all the pieces together on this at Duncan's forum in the thread entitled CE142 What the flap...

As for Linnie May and Frazier I believe the time that Rose, Adamchek etc arrived was much earlier. Check the local cops timing.....there is no way they sat in a car waiting for 40 minutes for them to arrive.

Frazier also has missing time, he likely went home and was totally aware of his predicament. He may have even known while driving home listening to the radio. The plan was to send him to see the abusive step-father to buy time and cook up a story so he could avoid involvement.

Who knows how the bag story got planted with the brother and sister.

Thanks Colin. If the cops made it to carry the rifle, did it actually fit? Why aren't Buell and Linnie on board with making it the right size? Why did the cops fold it up when they decided to take it upstairs?

I think Oswald was telling the truth when he said Buell was thinking of another time. I think it's possible Oswald did take curtain rods the week before. See the Washing Machine Conspiracy thread - if I'm right, that would be where the idea for the bag came from - not to mention the idea to say it was curtain rods. It could still be that Day and Studebaker made the bag, but in this scenario it was made for the frame. The manner it was carried out may well have been over concerns about prints. Not sure they would be concerned in '63 about any forensic evidence falling out. At best, they may have expected some oil - but that would hardly drip out.

While we're considering scenarios, I guess it's also possible that Buell and Linnie concocted the bag story and that got back to the TSBD. The bag was made for the purpose you put forward but when they heard that Oswald was supposed to have brought in a long package and it was not found... voila... now we have it, and up to 6 it goes.

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin

There was a small piece of wood and some wax found in the bag, consistent with it carrying the wooden sill piece. It was made to transport the rifle fully assembled as a wrapper. Day and Studebaker had the rifle at the wrapping table before Day left. He admitted in No More Silence that he was concerned about preserving prints on the rifle but a paper wrapping might rub them off and decided against. I think that's exactly what happened. Once Day left Studebaker returned to the sixth floor with the wrapper as it had, briefly, contained the rifle and could be considered evidence. He likely placed it outside the SN where it was later found by Montgomery stuck between boxes.

The rest is likely Chinese whispers. The FBI gets it that night as it had been made to "transport the rifle". I wonder exactly the bag story as conveyed by Frazier and Randle was concocoted. Look at the missing time. Randle going to Paines and Frazier going to the hospital. What was said between them to avoid trouble for Buell?

Colin Crow wrote:There was a small piece of wood and some wax found in the bag, consistent with it carrying the wooden sill piece. It was made to transport the rifle fully assembled as a wrapper. Day and Studebaker had the rifle at the wrapping table before Day left. He admitted in No More Silence that he was concerned about preserving prints on the rifle but a paper wrapping might rub them off and decided against. I think that's exactly what happened. Once Day left Studebaker returned to the sixth floor with the wrapper as it had, briefly, contained the rifle and could be considered evidence. He likely placed it outside the SN where it was later found by Montgomery stuck between boxes.

The rest is likely Chinese whispers. The FBI gets it that night as it had been made to "transport the rifle". I wonder exactly the bag story as conveyed by Frazier and Randle was concocoted. Look at the missing time. Randle going to Paines and Frazier going to the hospital. What was said between them to avoid trouble for Buell?

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin

Once they had the bag made and claimed it was the rifle bag, Frazier and Randle had no choice but to go along with it. I'm pretty sure Buell knew about the bag and a lot of that missing time Colin refers to was discussing what to say was in the bag according to Oswald. Curtain rods is a good story. The size also matters. It can't be the same size. If it is then Frazier risks driving the killer. A lot has been made of Frazier and his sister not going along with the full story of the bag. Why they didn't just admit yep that's the bag. My belief is that had they done that it could create problems for Frazier as an accomplice. Saying it was a different bag gives credence to their bullshit story and puts the onus on the cops who fucking made up the bag. At the end of the day the only thing that mattered was that they got Buell and Linnie to say Oswald carried a paper bag with him that day. If they had said he didn't Buell was in trouble.

Maybe this is a tad cynical, but does the 'fact' that Linnie Mae claimed perhaps as early as 3.30pm that she saw Oswald carrying a long package not hinge on the reliability of the testimony from Adamcik and Stovall?

The paper bag/curtain rods story was a critical part of the case against Oswald and police would have had a huge amount of leverage over Frazier and his sister, especially in light of his absence that afternoon.

If police made the paper bag themselves, would Frazier have been aware before he left the TSBD?

Redfern wrote:Maybe this is a tad cynical, but does the 'fact' that Linnie Mae claimed perhaps as early as 3.30pm that she saw Oswald carrying a long package not hinge on the reliability of the testimony from Adamcik and Stovall?

The paper bag/curtain rods story was a critical part of the case against Oswald and police would have had a huge amount of leverage over Frazier and his sister, especially in light of his absence that afternoon.

If police made the paper bag themselves, would Frazier have been aware before he left the TSBD?

That's an interesting notion but I thought - and I could most certainly be wrong on the timing - that Buell had left the TSBD before the rifle was even found.

That's not to say that the DPD could not have created the "bag" earlier in anticipation of finding the rifle... or a piece of windowsill that had been broken off.

_________________If God had intended Man to do anything except copulate, He would have given us brains. - - - Ignatz Verbotham

Redfern wrote:Maybe this is a tad cynical, but does the 'fact' that Linnie Mae claimed perhaps as early as 3.30pm that she saw Oswald carrying a long package not hinge on the reliability of the testimony from Adamcik and Stovall?

The paper bag/curtain rods story was a critical part of the case against Oswald and police would have had a huge amount of leverage over Frazier and his sister, especially in light of his absence that afternoon.

If police made the paper bag themselves, would Frazier have been aware before he left the TSBD?

That's an interesting notion but I thought - and I could most certainly be wrong on the timing - that Buell had left the TSBD before the rifle was even found.

That's not to say that the DPD could not have created the "bag" earlier in anticipation of finding the rifle... or a piece of windowsill that had been broken off.

If we can believe what is in Death of a President, Frazier claimed to have left after eating lunch and coming upstairs, seeing the chaos and realizing there'd be no more work that day (words also ascribed to Oswald during interrogation). Manchester notes that this was about 5 hours after driving with Oswald to work - which makes it about 1 pm and earlier than anyone else left (except for Oz).

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin

They had telephones back in 1963. I'd love to see Linnies phone records just after 1pm that day. I'm almost sure they knew they had to account for the rifle that was found. I think the bag came before the curtain rod story.

It may be that Frazier was allowed to leave before 2pm. It was around this time that Day and Frazier were making the bag at the wrapping table.

No doubt Frazier was listening on the radio on the drive home. I believe he would go there first and talk with LMR. Then the strange decision to go to the hospital that was not far from their home.

I think Ruth Paine felt that the cops arrived much earlier than they claimed. Likely about the time Oswald was mentioned by name as being arrested on the radio. Remember Ruth saying to the cops.....we were expecting you. Did LMR really go to the Paines' or did they visit her after Ruth told them of Frazier?

He has changed his story completely about what he did immediately after the assassination.

He lied about what he did in that first hour for the record.

Stovall Rose and Adimcak's report says that Linnie Mae drove up to the Paine's House and approached them and told them of a suspicious sack or case.

Linnie Mae Randle had ample opportunity to adjust her admissions to authorities without offending the official version.

She never did need to tell them she saw Oswald place the package on the back seat of We's car to uphold the official script, She never did have to tell them that she could see the parcel being place there through the slats of the car port. She never did have to tell them anything other than she saw him with a long package IMO. She has for years been overlooked by many mainstream researchers as to her possible involvement in the framing of Oswald IMO.

To ignore the possibility of either Randles or Frazier's involvement in framing Lee is to ignore every single document, report, statement or affidavit which suggests otherwise. IMO

Interesting that the first statement by LMR claims a longer package (often quoted by LNs).....only after that do brother and sister decide on 2 feet. Wonder if Buell convinced her to adjust downward to make it easier for him to argue "curtain rods".

He has changed his story completely about what he did immediately after the assassination.

He lied about what he did in that first hour for the record.

Stovall Rose and Adimcak's report says that Linnie Mae drove up to the Paine's House and approached them and told them of a suspicious sack or case.

Linnie Mae Randle had ample opportunity to adjust her admissions to authorities without offending the official version.

She never did need to tell them she saw Oswald place the package on the back seat of We's car to uphold the official script, She never did have to tell them that she could see the parcel being place there through the slats of the car port. She never did have to tell them anything other than she saw him with a long package IMO. She has for years been overlooked by many mainstream researchers as to her possible involvement in the framing of Oswald IMO.

To ignore the possibility of either Randles or Frazier's involvement in framing Lee is to ignore every single document, report, statement or affidavit which suggests otherwise. IMO

All good points, Mick. I did raise concerns about her and Wes on this forum some time ago. You have gone beyond my timid (I thought "careful" LOL) questions and have made a hell of a case to back it up. It's really now just finding out how the actual physical bag ties in with Linnie's report to Adamcik. Lot's of possibilities.

It is the politics of the family that I believe ties them to certain others that will become important as well. It was their politics that got me wondering about them to start with. Dixiecrats.

_________________Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use isI offer him embarrassment and my usual excusesWhile looking down the corridorOut to where the van is waitingI'm looking for the Great Leap Forward Billy Bragg-----------------------------Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. Lachie Hulme -----------------------------The Cold War ran on bullshit. Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin

Redfern wrote:Maybe this is a tad cynical, but does the 'fact' that Linnie Mae claimed perhaps as early as 3.30pm that she saw Oswald carrying a long package not hinge on the reliability of the testimony from Adamcik and Stovall?

The paper bag/curtain rods story was a critical part of the case against Oswald and police would have had a huge amount of leverage over Frazier and his sister, especially in light of his absence that afternoon.

If police made the paper bag themselves, would Frazier have been aware before he left the TSBD?

Redfern,

Great point,

I have thought about this long and hard too. Its possible. The report was made after the fact.

Its possible as the report was probably written up as the story was evolving. I cannot discount that.

What make it more interesting is the report also contains two other pieces of info which have red flags on them too.

The "we were expecting you" line is in there and one of the 4 different scenarios of Frazier's arrest and detention is included too.

For now I'm going with the report albeit cautiously, I believe if I or we diss this report then where does that end, what is genuine what is not?

until we know any more I'll stick with the report, but I do so knowing parts of it may be contrived to support the official version

He has changed his story completely about what he did immediately after the assassination.

He lied about what he did in that first hour for the record.

Stovall Rose and Adimcak's report says that Linnie Mae drove up to the Paine's House and approached them and told them of a suspicious sack or case.

Linnie Mae Randle had ample opportunity to adjust her admissions to authorities without offending the official version.

She never did need to tell them she saw Oswald place the package on the back seat of We's car to uphold the official script, She never did have to tell them that she could see the parcel being place there through the slats of the car port. She never did have to tell them anything other than she saw him with a long package IMO. She has for years been overlooked by many mainstream researchers as to her possible involvement in the framing of Oswald IMO.

To ignore the possibility of either Randles or Frazier's involvement in framing Lee is to ignore every single document, report, statement or affidavit which suggests otherwise. IMO

They had to frame him. Mick. They had little choice. If they don't Buell joins Oswald. Oswald was always being framed. That was the process throughout the arrest. Buell and Linnie played a part in it. Buell was shit scared back then as he is now. Especially with Prayer Man surfacing. Now he has to frame him again by saying he doesn't know who his mate Oswald is who is standing beside him.