Allen: particularly such aspects of Buddhism that puzzle me - like rituals and offerings.

Offering (puja), sacrify is a strange for modern people (not informed in the tradition, having modern rituals), totally not used to it. What does Allen likes to know about it, the basic trainings?

As for food, you may gain some understanding, reading is needed, here. Vegan, Vegetarism for example are not-conductive rituals in regard of the path, but modern and so thought being no ritual.Paying respect and Veneration to worthy object is a basic ritual, "modern" are incapable, for example.

On reflection, yes to self-aggrandizement. It is good to have one's faults underlined by one's fellow travellers. Thank you, although I do wish you wouldn't be quite so angry.

However... I still have questions about what seem to be the trappings of religion evidenced by the rituals and offerings. Perhaps reading the various links, particularly to the Buddha's reported views, will help.

Maybe your 'hidden' "hover me" comments, Samana, are some sort of test, but just for the record, here is what you put in your strange 'hovering' points:

1) Allen, also Mr Ideal-Talk, do not wast your time in this 'you have difilements' 'you did ask because of this' ego-wrestling. Stay sober (dont get drunken) and on topic. It might happen again and again, but just recognizing, apologizing, and more mindful forward on topic.

and

2) Nyom Allen, not sure if Allen talks to my person when speaking 'don't be so angry'. Not a little, can not remember having been angry. Be careful: ones preoccupations on internet are 10 times more tricky then if meeting with all sense contact.

I only quote these just in case some poor soul happens upon this thread and wonders what the hell is going on...

Anyway, if you'd been following the dialogue, you'd see that my 'anger' comments were directed at IdleChater, who does appear very angry, particularly with me. You don't seem angry, just enigmatic, or it might of course be that we don't have the same language.

But if you are going to insult me (if Mr Idle-Talk is in fact an insult; I'm not 100% sure) please do it publicly!

I have a feeling that I'm in the wrong place, and if no-one else comes in to discuss the validity of Buddhist relics and rituals and their too-close-approach to 'religion', I think I'll bow out.

So what now, Allen. Dana and Sila (where this topic lies, generosity and virtue) seems not tasty. Samadi (conzentration)... see off-topics, panna (insight,wisdom): how would one find out why dana and sila is so annoying to him/her, if not made the fundamental steps to even clean a little to be able to see and understand. People think, by thinking mind can be observed. Thats not the case. Each thought is somehow an excuse for a unrelaxed mind. One is full in the highest teachings if knowing how to bow. If skilled, it is easy possible to reach certain state of liberatiin, only by one bow. Those are not only stories, when we read somebody bowed down in front of a worthy one and gained high fruits.

and if no-one else comes in to discuss the validity of Buddhist relics and rituals and their too-close-approach to 'religion', I think I'll bow out.

Maybe you should.

I'd be happy to answer questions about ritual and relics, particularly in Tibetan Buddhism, but it seems you want to discuss validity from a personal stance of having alredy made up your mind about it as evidenced in your first posting. I have exactly zero interest in trying to convince you of something you're already closed-minded about.

You seem to think they point to religious underpinnings as if this were a bad thing, which it is not. Buddhism is a religion. The 4th largest "religion" in the worl and has been a religion for at least 2000 years. It works pretty well that way. That said, it seems like you have a preoccupation with secular pursuit and if that is the case you shoud pose your questions in a secular forum.

Don't pay any attention to Johann. He means well, but he is quite impossible to follow.

The general folk Tibetan approach to rites and rituals is as useless and off the line as it's opposition, some call it secular (full of rituals and devotions as well, but just used to and not seen).

Practice with wholesome tools is one point, the purpose the next and the understanding - of cause, seldom gained - is the point where one could give others objects of meditations (since it is nothing else at least).

When we take Tibetanisum it uses a lot of unwholesome tools, has often foolish purposes, even actually bad and it is not so seldom that "Gurus" understand well their doing but do not have faith in the good teachings for now. Especial social nationalistic movements are skilled in using rituals and devotional acts and flags... "The wave" (not sure about the english version and there was also a older release, but it shows well certain danger of the topics means as well). It's a good approach how secular approaches actually can or look like. Both driven by wordly purposes and aside of Dhamma and is aim, means and techniques given by the Buddha.

The general folk Tibetan approach to rites and rituals is as useless and off the line as it's opposition, some call it secular (full of rituals and devotions as well, but just used to and not seen).

Practice with wholesome tools is one point, the purpose the next and the understanding - of cause, seldom gained - is the point where one could give others objects of meditations (since it is nothing else at least).

When we take Tibetanisum it uses a lot of unwholesome tools, has often foolish purposes, even actually bad and it is not so seldom that "Gurus" understand well their doing but do not have faith in the good teachings for now. Especial social nationalistic movements are skilled in using rituals and devotional acts and flags... "

You really shouldn't disrespect an entire tradition, especially when you don't know anything about it. And the least you could do is at least try to make yourself understandable.

My person does not know of any specific Tibetanism ritual practise which is very useful. Aside of one, and that my person is greatful having received it, in regard of the introduction to bowing, a good explainig of it in technical ways and if one later comes even to the good teachings it very clear and good not only to do but also to teach.

But, Ideal-talk, let known of certain rituals unknown in the Tradition of the Noble Ones but just means of a mountain culture for flat-landers to get simply drunken with it. It's not so that one can know each cultural apperance. So please, if generouse, let be known of it.

There is an old traditionl ritual which is actually in the sphere of the 10 meritions deeds. It's called "Abhivadana", paying respect, starting with gifts of greating, asking about circumstances, courtesy, friendly world. It's part of the virtue section.

But people thinking that they can do the "cool" way, without such rituals, first always assamble together and secound, are uncomfortable right from the beginning. See also "Respect and Veneration", one of the basic rituals.

Quote

Paying Respect or Veneration (also regard, obeisance, high esteem, honour, admiration) (pi apacÄyana, apa + cÄy root pÅ«ja = abound, scarify; verb apaciti; gÄrava) , is the fourth of the traditional listed ten skilful/meritorious deeds (pi puÃ±Ã±akiriya-vatthus), a practice which would be maintained beginning in childhood within families and societies in Buddhist environments. Within the three major kinds meritorious deeds (dÄna, sÄ«la, bhÄvana) it counts to the virtue group as an aspect of sila. More known accesses, which will be maybe not suddenly regarded as aspects of respect, is the Refuge into the Three Jewels, honour and respect as the access point into the Dhamma and one of the Four Sublime Attributes (brahma vihara), Mudita, often translated as sympathy joy or appreciation. Mudita means joy and appreciation, and with it respect, in regard of one own goodness that one has developed and that of others.

Tibetan "Buddhanature" can be transfomed into Dhamma here for this regard of the goodness of others, to stay "multilingual" with conductive essence.

It's always hard if entering with certain preoccupations either if new or if receiving a new guest. So help each other when ever possible.

Like all sacrifies and the rituals expressing them outwardly, its a matter what to give, not a demanting issue. Maybe a useful small story in regard of the anger eating demons. Remember always: you had done first, otherwise you have no chance to and the long story. To begin with stopping the first training is to use rituals instead of mood to act/react on.

The training beginns for those having gained certain faith therefore with outwardly giving and sacrifies of that one holds as high, as own, as self. Here it is giving certain parts of ones status by kind words and lifting others. In doing so, if proper done, one actually gain a lot more of esteem under good people as one has given at first hand.

Giving is the training of what rituals, outwardly kamma by words and deeds are used for. If mind walks even in line: perfect. If mind works well but outwardly no generosity, no virtue visible, one has no pleasant dwelling. Of course places where such is not practiced, without rituals, good people mostly avoid is not secure already.

Don't worry, freesangha is not at all a place where basic rituals are practiced for now and actually all kinds of "secular" approaches meet each other here, but maybe that gives one reason to rather then avoid rituals start to develop, stick to it and by outwardly doing give others also the change to get familar with such, or feel reminded that there are certain old things worthy to keep very strong and regard them rather to be "cool" outwardly and burn like fire all the time.