There have been a lot attacks on older Chinese in SF (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/04/29/BAJL1D68SF.DTL&tsp=1#ixzz0mVwA7r1A). In addition to the reported attacks, there's constant intimidation and threatening. Many of these immigrants rely on Muni to get around, and it's not safe, and there's nothing SFPD can do, or wants to do, about the problem. The perpetrators are a politically-privileged class, so SF is afraid to even bring hate-crime enhancements on the few perpetrators they prosecute.

CCW would completely end this problem. The first time one of these teenagers tries to rob a helpless old Chinese man or woman, and ends up with some leaks, that will be the end of it.

On March 22, Cheng was checking on her daughter who was late coming home on the bus. Standing on the Third and Oakdale Muni platform, she recalls being grabbed from behind, choked and thrown off the 5-foot-high metro stop and into the street.

The impact knocked her unconscious, shattered some of her teeth and left her lying in the path of a bus. The attacker was identified as a 15-year-old African American boy who was charged with robbery. But he threw her to the ground for no apparent reason.

Maybe it's time to print up some CCW flyers, in Chinese and English, and get them out to these neighborhoods?

trevilli

04-29-2010, 10:35 AM

Maybe it's time to print up some CCW flyers, in Chinese and English, and get them out to these neighborhoods?
Maybe. I posted some comments to this article or one similar to it, saying this very thing. And while it makes sense, I think CCW in SF would a very, very tough sell, and here's why: People in SF believe that only two types of people have guns, criminals or cops. If you're not wearing the uniform and the tin star, you're a criminal. I think you have to change this perception before you can even think about asking the city to authorize CCW.

CCWFacts

04-29-2010, 11:13 AM

Maybe. I posted some comments to this article or one similar to it, saying this very thing. And while it makes sense, I think CCW in SF would a very, very tough sell, and here's why: People in SF believe that only two types of people have guns, criminals or cops.

That is not true of the Chinese immigrants there. They hate the fear, the damage, and the constant intimidation they suffer every day on Muni. They're very angry. They know full-well that SFPD doesn't care and couldn't do anything even if they did care.

Also, SF's supe elections go by district, so there's some supe who relies on them to win the elections. If they start demanding CCW, their representative will have to make an issue of it.

not-fishing

04-29-2010, 11:24 AM

They know full-well that SFPD doesn't care and couldn't do anything even if they did care.

I guess I'd better visit my wife's family in SF and drop a few hints about shooting in rifle and defensive pistol matches.

They're from Canton provence. Those family members who didn't get out, didn't survive the Mao's "re-education".

I love the fact that the last Beating/Murder in Oakland was determined not to be a "Hate" crime when black kids murder asians. :mad:

Ding126

04-29-2010, 11:56 AM

Political correctness protects the criminal, illegals & dope dealers. Convict's are being released, police are laying off. It's time for the people to organize.

Tell the city that YOU will not tollerate being a victim anymore!!

I have a soft spot for the very young and the elderly. Maybe UOC would of had a better effect from the community...trying to protect specific groups?? ( probably not )

What ever happend to the Guardian Angel's.

trevilli

04-29-2010, 12:06 PM

That is not true of the Chinese immigrants there. They hate the fear, the damage, and the constant intimidation they suffer every day on Muni. They're very angry. They know full-well that SFPD doesn't care and couldn't do anything even if they did care.

Also, SF's supe elections go by district, so there's some supe who relies on them to win the elections. If they start demanding CCW, their representative will have to make an issue of it.
OK. I admit I know nothing at all in regards to how the Chinese immigrants feel as a group. If they are as angry as you believe, then maybe the time is right for this.

CCWFacts

04-29-2010, 12:17 PM

OK. I admit I know nothing at all in regards to how the Chinese immigrants feel as a group. If they are as angry as you believe, then maybe the time is right for this.

They are angry. They have been subjected to intimidation, and lots of low-level crimes which are usually not reported or not investigated. It has been going on a long time.

They are absolutely not liberals. They are angry that they have come here to work hard and improve their lives, and wondering why our society here tolerates classes of people who are unwilling to do those things. And then those same classes of people refuse to pay fares on Muni, and attack them as they're trying to ride Muni. They see the situation for what it is, without any PC blinders on.

trevilli

04-29-2010, 12:36 PM

They are angry. They have been subjected to intimidation, and lots of low-level crimes which are usually not reported or not investigated. It has been going on a long time.

If you get flyers printed up, and want help handing them out, let me know.

Philthy

04-29-2010, 12:42 PM

Why even include the local stupidvisors? They're useless. They'd probably issue yet another nonbinding resolution about people's rights in AZ (where they have no power), ignoring what's going on in their own city (where they do have power).

Skip Gascon (who would never give one) and try the sheriff. He can issue CCW can't he? If more and more people applied, perhaps he would start to issue them. Especially with what's going on down on 3rd st.

JDoe

04-29-2010, 12:45 PM

I'd be interested in handing out flyers in SF however I think that it might be politically unwise to go in as uninvited do gooders from a far coming to save the Chinese population from the liberal hordes. If there were a way to work with an existing group, Chinese or otherwise that might be a wiser way to get this going.

Another thing that could work to bring more of the unprotected classes in SF to our side is to point out all the liberal and Democrat controlled shall issue states. Why get into name calling when we can show that not only other Republican controlled states are shall issue but liberal & Democrat controlled states are shall issue as well and rivers of blood don't flow in either.

I don't have any illusions that SF will go shall issue from someone handing out flyers but the political pressure brought to bear on the gun grabbing, self serving politicians by some newly awakened voters couldn't hurt our cause.

This is an issue of the individual right of self defense not of political allegiance.

CCWFacts

04-29-2010, 1:16 PM

I'd be interested in handing out flyers in SF however I think that it might be politically unwise to go in as uninvited do gooders from a far coming to save the Chinese population from the liberal hordes.

Sometimes a new idea needs to come from outsiders. Right now, probably few Chinese immigrants even realize that it's practical for individuals to buy firearms here. They probably have no idea that there is a CCW system available and they could legally carry guns if they could get politically organized to force SF to start issuing them. They certainly have enough votes to do it. And probably none of them know the racist history of the CCW law, which was specifically targeted at Chinese immigrants. They thought it would have a "salutary effect" in checking the "tong wars".

And they really hate the fact that their elders are routinely getting beaten, pushed around, and robbed as they go about SF. For every beating and murder that makes the news, there must be thousands of incidents of intimidation. Youth (who didn't pay) who don't give up their seat for an elderly Chinese. Pushing, spitting, that kind of thing.

This video:

1rm4SazjKsQ

made the rounds recently and it shows the anger that is there.

unusedusername

04-29-2010, 1:26 PM

If you hand out flyers make sure they are written in Chinese. Babelfish does not count.

Many people there are completely illiterate in English, which is the main reason criminals prey on them, they don't speak/write English well enough to report the activities to the cops.

CZlover

04-29-2010, 1:38 PM

I think pepper sprays, stun guns, etc. could be useful in these incidents as well...those criminals/attackers would have sthg to remember all their lives besides getting shot at by police or home defenders :)...Imagine bad guys lying on the streets unable to see/continue attacking their victims..."What goes around SHOULD come around" !!!

cb006

04-29-2010, 2:18 PM

Skip Gascon (who would never give one) and try the sheriff. He can issue CCW can't he? If more and more people applied, perhaps he would start to issue them. Especially with what's going on down on 3rd st.

Gascon came from Mesa AZ, right? I've read that the residents of Mesa were not sorry at all to see him go, but he has to be more amenable to issuing CCWs than Sheriff Hennessey, simply because of the exposure Gascon had to AZ's politics and culture. Hennessey has been Sheriff in San Francisco for over 30 years now, and is basically 'no issue;' something I don't see changing while he's in office. How many CCWs has he issued? No more than a handful, and last I heard, only two are currently active.

Philthy

04-29-2010, 2:56 PM

Gascon came from Mesa AZ, right? I've read that the residents of Mesa were not sorry at all to see him go, but he has to be more amenable to issuing CCWs than Sheriff Hennessey, simply because of the exposure Gascon had to AZ's politics and culture. Hennessey has been Sheriff in San Francisco for over 30 years now, and is basically 'no issue;' something I don't see changing while he's in office. How many CCWs has he issued? No more than a handful, and last I heard, only two are currently active.

I agree, but Sheriff is an elected position and we are talking about potential voters. Gascon has to answer to all sorts of people, and the BOS wants say over him too.

CCWFacts

04-29-2010, 3:11 PM

Gascon came from Mesa AZ, right? I've read that the residents of Mesa were not sorry at all to see him go, but he has to be more amenable to issuing CCWs than Sheriff Hennessey,

Doesn't matter, he only issues CCWs to judges and so on. The only way to get CCWs in SF (other than litigation) is to get supes to start demanding it. They do control the situation over there.

Anyway, my feeling is that Gascon will soon be looking for another job. The crime lab debacle there is a Chernobyl-scale situation for SFPD. Literally hundreds of cases will be thrown out, and hundreds of convictions may be tossed. They will have to hire a staff just to deal with reviewing thousands of old cases to notify defense attorneys that they should challenge old convictions. It is an apocalyptic disaster. The normal thing to do is for the person at the top to take responsibility and resign. Of course SF is anything but normal so we'll see.

I agree, but Sheriff is an elected position and we are talking about potential voters. Gascon has to answer to all sorts of people, and the BOS wants say over him too.

Sheriff Hennessey is a despicable "party machine" crook. He's not even a cop. He is California's longest-serving sheriff. He usually runs without opposition. He never issues CCWs. I believe all CCW issuance in SF is handled by the police chief, not the sheriff. SF is unique in California in that it's a consolidated city / county entity so it seems like he can do that.

GuyW

04-29-2010, 4:19 PM

No kungfu grandchildren to ride along on transit?
.

CCWFacts

04-29-2010, 4:26 PM

No kungfu grandchildren to ride along on transit?
.

Unfortunately, kung fu doesn't work. Even more unfortunately, the Chinese immigrant community there doesn't realize that they could use their political power to get legally armed, and instead this may create pressure on their younger generation to form gangs for self-defense. That leads down a bad path. It has happened to some extent in other Asian communities. Rather than having a "salutary effect" in checking the "tong wars", our CCW law may actually incite "tong wars".

IrishPirate

04-29-2010, 4:34 PM

I think pepper sprays, stunt guns, etc. could be useful in these incidents as well...

AMEN!!! I think before we start trying to put a gun in everyone's hands they should be taught how to use some non lethal methods too. If the attackers are getting killed, it's only going to fuel racial tensions even more. Then you'll go from attacks and robberies, to first degree murders.

I agree, these punks need to be taught a lesson, but putting guns in peoples hands doesn't make them super heros, it makes them dangerous.

I'm only half-serious. As a student of kung fu for self-defense, I of course recognize that no martial art will work in every conceivable self-defense scenario.

gunsmith

04-29-2010, 5:16 PM

I worked as an armed guard for muni, almost all the muni folks I worked with were Chinese, I'm not sure if they were mainland or not, ALL of them were against ccw and pro bureaucracy. The only muni employee I encountered on a daily basis who was in favor of ccw was Vietnamese. Also, though they all spoke Chinese, not all could read Chinese, so printing in English is a good idea. Also, reach out to the other Asian immigrants, Koreans I've spoken to were pro ccw, so were the Mongolians. ... also- I'm not saying "all Chinese" are against ccw, just the city workers I've encountered.

CCWFacts

04-29-2010, 5:36 PM

I worked as an armed guard for muni, almost all the muni folks I worked with were Chinese, I'm not sure if they were mainland or not, ALL of them were against ccw and pro bureaucracy.

That's a select group of Chinese who have gotten union jobs which pay far above the going rate for that type of work. They are being subjected to union viewpoints, which they of course buy into because they're being paid so much. If someone were paying me twice the market rate for my work I would probably agree with what they told me.

The only muni employee I encountered on a daily basis who was in favor of ccw was Vietnamese.

I'm not surprised.

Also, reach out to the other Asian immigrants, Koreans I've spoken to were pro ccw, so were the Mongolians.

No surprise there. Search on Youtube for "rodney king riot" and you'll see plenty of old footage showing their attitude about people who want to burn down their business.

... also- I'm not saying "all Chinese" are against ccw, just the city workers I've encountered.

Exactly.

In general the immigrants have no comprehension of our politically-correct views on the status of blacks. These Chinese have come here, speaking no English and with no money, and work hard and generally achieve a lot relative to their resources. They wonder why blacks, who are born here, who speak English natively, and have so many advantages and opportunities have such problems with crime and unemployment. That's the non-PC viewpoint that they have, which is probably making them angrier about this situation.

Paladin

04-29-2010, 7:06 PM

Funny you should start this thread today, CCWFacts. After, what, four years (or is it five?) of pushing for Shall Issue in CA together, we're starting to think alike. :eek: ;)

For about a week I've been discussing these attacks and this issue w/one of my best friends who is Chinese (via the Philippines), to see if he had any connections to the SF Asian community (he didn't).

Today when I was in SF I gave one of my CCW business-card fliers (see #13 of my "16 things YOU CAN DO" linked in my sig line) to an Asian security guard (middle aged male), but not sure how much he understood. He said he'd look into it. My guess is he'll show it to a younger Asian who has better English and is internet savvy. I thought about approaching three different Asian males in their 20s, but decided not to. I think next time I will after I figure out an appropriate "opening" line w/o seeming like I'm trying to stir a race war.

A thought I had was trying to find an online forum for Bay Area Asians and broaching the subject there. Frankly, IMO, the best way is for Asian Calgunners to take up outreaching to other Asians/the Asian "community" as a project. Emphasis should be on the ability of all law-abiding people to exercise their right of self-defense by keeping and bearing arms. (Similarly, I hope that African-American Calgunners reach out to their "community" and so that their law-abiding members can defend themselves when out in public against the thugs that prey up them.)

MAYBE WHAT WE NEED ARE DISTINCT CALGUNS.NET OUTREACHES TO THE VARIOUS RACIAL/ETHIC COMMUNITIES! ! !

In general, Asians are law-abiding, hard working, and thus productive and on the top-half of the "class" so to speak as far as education and wealth. Thus they can contribute money and skills/resources to campaigns to get what they want IF they decide to get politically active (e.g., replacing Hennessey). This means that if they join our cause (and those attacks over the past few weeks give them plenty of reason to join our cause), they could be very valuable addition to our team.

Plus, as I mentioned before, although middle-aged white guys are the backbone of our movement, we'll have more appeal if there's a little more diversity on our team (esp in CA). :chinese: :red_indian: :wheelchair: :cowboy: (I could not find distinctively female, Hispanic, or African American smileys.)

If you get flyers printed up, and want help handing them out, let me know.See #14 of my "16 things YOU CAN DO" linked in my sig line.

CZlover

04-30-2010, 6:38 PM

AMEN!!! I think before we start trying to put a gun in everyone's hands they should be taught how to use some non lethal methods too. If the attackers are getting killed, it's only going to fuel racial tensions even more. Then you'll go from attacks and robberies, to first degree murders.

I agree, these punks need to be taught a lesson, but putting guns in peoples hands doesn't make them super heros, it makes them dangerous.

Thanks for agreeing with my humble opinion...Those non-lethal methods seem to be very effective in close contacts...and those defenders won't feel guilty on their conciences after those incidents :D

skyadrenaline

04-30-2010, 8:35 PM

Any Asians here have connections to Chinatown?

I live out in Sunset District, wouldn't consider myself to be very involved with the Asian community, but it seems a good portion of my friends (mid-20's) don't see the need for guns.

I do generally try to bring it up, for a supposedly safe place, Sunset has a fair number pot houses and random robberies/shootings.

Paladin

04-30-2010, 9:21 PM

I think pepper sprays, stun guns, etc. could be useful in these incidents as well...those criminals/attackers would have sthg to remember all their lives besides getting shot at by police or home defenders :)...Imagine bad guys lying on the streets unable to see/continue attacking their victims...With a significant fraction of the population, you'll need a very vivid imagination:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dcb_1183530114&p=1

I prefer being able to carry both: pepper spray for low level threats/violence, and a HGN for when innocent life is at stake. See the link in my sig line to (currently) 24 examples of CCWs saving lives.

radioman

04-30-2010, 9:28 PM

Political correctness protects the criminal, illegals & dope dealers. Convict's are being released, police are laying off. It's time for the people to organize.

Tell the city that YOU will not tollerate being a victim anymore!!

I have a soft spot for the very young and the elderly. Maybe UOC would of had a better effect from the community...trying to protect specific groups?? ( probably not )

What ever happend to the Guardian Angel's.

their not safe ether! that's what made all hell brake lose, people did organize, read the history on 1856, things were bad in San Francisco, and Mayor Van Ness could stop it, William Tell Colman said, when it was over. It was the hardest job he had ever had.

CCWFacts

04-30-2010, 9:57 PM

With a significant fraction of the population, you'll need a very vivid imagination:

I agree. Pepper spray may deter the unmotivated but it's a thin hope against real criminals.

Criminals tend to have psychopathic traits, and one of those traits is decreased sensitivity to pain. A police officer friend of mine described an incident where she tried to use some type of pain-hold to control a criminal. She tore all the ligaments in the guy's hand and it seemed to have no effect on him. On me, I would be begging for mercy before anything tore. I'm glad to be normal, but often normal people have a hard time understanding the wiring of criminals and psychopaths.

In that video you linked (excellent learning material btw) you can see, the spray is like water to the guy. The cops have to back away from it, but that guy gets it all in his face and it has no effect. It took half a dozen cops to struggle to subdue him. What could an individual elderly Chinese person do against that guy, especially if he's got his friends with him? A gun is the only thing that would help.

I would not want to have pepper spray as a last resort. It could just make them angry and incite a more violent attack. It's not a substitute for a CCW. I guess it's better than nothing, but not by much.

radioman

04-30-2010, 10:35 PM

OK. I admit I know nothing at all in regards to how the Chinese immigrants feel as a group. If they are as angry as you believe, then maybe the time is right for this.

most of the Chinese in San Francisco are not immigrants, far from it, some of them can trace their ancestry back to the gold rush, they keep to them self's, which is why them seem as immigrants. getting their trust may be a bit of a trick. But if it worked, there is a lot of Chinese in the city, if it did work, Oakland should next.

berto

04-30-2010, 10:58 PM

Getting out the word can't hurt but I'm pretty sure the Chinatown machine will push against it.

radioman

04-30-2010, 11:13 PM

Getting out the word can't hurt but I'm pretty sure the Chinatown machine will push against it.

well I tell you what, not just Chinatown, but North Beach too, and out on clement also, stay off 3rd street. someone let know if this does fly, I would help pass out fliers.

slobson

04-30-2010, 11:50 PM

I agree. Pepper spray may deter the unmotivated but it's a thin hope against real criminals.

not to mention beginners that are wasted on stimulants/narcotics. if you have never seen a person out of their mind on coke/meth/other in a fight, then ask a former addict what it would take to slow them down when they were on a good one. my older brother used to be in this category: he's 6'5 and goes about 295. any of you tough guys wanna try and use pepper spray/mase/bare hands on someone that size when they have been up for two days on a meth binge, be my guest. I'll be getting away from the situation or responding with deadly force thanks.

Paladin

05-02-2010, 7:40 AM

The quote by Mrs. Cheng towards the bottom might also explain part of the problem: she attributes her getting mugged and thrown off of a train station platform to "bad luck" (victim mentality?), whereas I think most of us would attribute that assault and battery to the Bad Guy (BG). Is this due to cultural differences?

Time to print out and distribute more of my Right-to-Carry business card fliers (#13 of the 16 things YOU CAN DO linked in my sig line). Palmer, McDonald, and Sykes can't come fast enough for me (or these Bay Area Asians)!

San Francisco's hidden truth is out. That's what community organizer Carol Mo calls the realization that Asian residents are being targeted for robberies, burglaries and intimidation by young black men.

"It is San Francisco's dirty little secret," said Mo, a former Safety Network Community organizer in the Sunset District. "It's not news to us."

Hundreds of people marched into Tuesday's Board of Supervisors meeting to express their fear, frustration and outrage. But so far the response has been disappointing, particularly from the San Francisco Police Department. It seems intent on downplaying the role of race and its impact in the community.

The recent incidents of black violence against Asians is the perfect opportunity to open a dialogue about racism. Instead, they are attempting to close the door.

City officials, including the Police Department, say these assaults are part of a larger crime picture where gangs of kids take advantage of a vulnerable group of small stature. But Mo participated in a 2008 survey by the Police Department in which about 300 strong-arm robberies were analyzed. "In 85 percent of the physical assault crimes, the victims were Asian and the perpetrators were African American," she said.

The squeamishness city officials are experiencing about confronting those numbers doesn't reflect well on anyone. No one is saying the entire African American community is violent. But ignoring the legitimate anger and frustration from Asians is disingenuous and unfair.

"We love San Francisco," said the Rev. Norman Fong, a Presbyterian minister. "And we don't want to do anything to divide the communities. But at the same time, our community is hurting and we feel like our voices are not being heard."

Now that the Asian community has found its voice, city leaders must listen and respond. What should be done? Here are a few suggestions:

-- Understand the underlying conflict: This isn't just about stealing iPods. There's a deep divide between the two communities. Edward Chang, who lectures on civil unrest and race relations at UC Riverside, has studied the contentious history of Korean-African American relations in Los Angeles when Korean store owners moved into black neighborhoods.

"There was this sense of being invaded by someone else," Chang said. "There was a sense of needing to protect and defend their turf."

Another factor is the way the two cultures are perceived. Lee Mun Wah, a Berkeley-based documentary filmmaker and diversity trainer for large corporations, said there is resentment over how Asians are seen as "the favored minority."

"We are pitted against each other," Wah said. "African Americans sometimes say, 'We did all the work in civil rights, and they get all the benefits.' "

-- Create a dialogue: As Chang said, "In order to build trust, you must do things together." Wah suggests hiring black employees in Asian stores. Board of Supervisors President David Chiu is pushing a summer program to hire black and Asian youths to work together in community patrols.

-- Speak up: Chiu thinks the language barrier is a huge part of the reason Asian victims do no report crimes. He stresses the need for multilingual police officers.

But the Chinese community also needs to overcome its reticence to go to the police. They are only making themselves more vulnerable by being seen, as one officer put it, as "silent, vulnerable and unwilling to fight back."

-- Listen to Mrs. Cheng: The 52-year-old woman was attacked March 22 when a 15-year-old boy allegedly threw her off the Muni platform at Third Street and Oakdale Avenue. She was injured, but she says she doesn't want retribution.

"This is my simple request," she wrote in an e-mail with the help of an interpreter. "That we can all live safely in our own homes without being burglarized. I feel ashamed that this horrible bad luck has happened to me. I only hope that my bad luck will fend off future bad luck situations for other people."

And then she added one more thought.

"My neighbor is black," she said. "Though we can't communicate much, he is a good person and a good friend. He often jokes that he would teach me English and I Chinese to him."

It's not a secret, it's well-known and has been going on for a long time in SF. Probably 90% of it is intimidation which never gets reported. Of the crimes, most probably don't get reported either. And the Asians there hate it. They wonder why blacks have so many advantages and privileges and yet do so badly, and then they attack Asians who have come there to work hard and lead non-criminal lives, and then the liberal city is too squeamish to talk about it. Part of it may be financial embarrassment. The city has spent billions of dollars to try to prop up SF's blacks, and there is no progress to show for it.

And according to the article, what is the solution? Tough sentencing for juvenile violent offenders? CCWs? Elimination of public housing? Enforcing fares on Muni? Federal charges for felon-in-possession?

No! It's "create a dialog"! That will do the trick! Yeah, 15 year olds who commit robbery will change their ways if you just offer them a dialog! Oh and they also recommend that Asians should hire more blacks. That's genius!

I'm sure that the Asian community leaders quoted in this article are chosen for quotes because they parrot various liberal psychobabble and platitudes, but the real feelings within the mainstream Chinese community are a lot different and wouldn't look so good in the paper.

FirstFlight

05-02-2010, 3:12 PM

OK... This is the way it is in SF. The two groups that have the most influence in SF with the Board of Supervisors and the Mayor are the Chinese and the Gay/Lesbian groups. Lesbians are big on self defense (Pink Pistols) and so are the Gays. I know that since there is no pistol range in San Francisco, the Gay/Lesbian groups go to South San Francisco's Jackson Arms (in San Mateo County) for their shooting practice. Before the Chief of Police of SF issues CCW's he is going to have to have the OK from the Board of Supes and the Mayor. Focus on the Chinese and Gays/Lesbians if you want CCW's in SF.

MajorBoothroyd

05-03-2010, 10:28 AM

OK... This is the way it is in SF. The two groups that have the most influence in SF with the Board of Supervisors and the Mayor are the Chinese and the Gay/Lesbian groups. Lesbians are big on self defense (Pink Pistols) and so are the Gays. I know that since there is no pistol range in San Francisco, the Gay/Lesbian groups go to South San Francisco's Jackson Arms (in San Mateo County) for their shooting practice. Before the Chief of Police of SF issues CCW's he is going to have to have the OK from the Board of Supes and the Mayor. Focus on the Chinese and Gays/Lesbians if you want CCW's in SF.

An all lesbian Board of Supervisors and an Asian Mayor should do the trick, right?

Ed_in_Sac

05-03-2010, 11:08 AM

Sometimes a new idea needs to come from outsiders. Right now, probably few Chinese immigrants even realize that it's practical for individuals to buy firearms here. They probably have no idea that there is a CCW system available and they could legally carry guns if they could get politically organized to force SF to start issuing them. They certainly have enough votes to do it. And probably none of them know the racist history of the CCW law, which was specifically targeted at Chinese immigrants. They thought it would have a "salutary effect" in checking the "tong wars".

And they really hate the fact that their elders are routinely getting beaten, pushed around, and robbed as they go about SF. For every beating and murder that makes the news, there must be thousands of incidents of intimidation. Youth (who didn't pay) who don't give up their seat for an elderly Chinese. Pushing, spitting, that kind of thing.

This video:

made the rounds recently and it shows the anger that is there.

Possibly the best thing that can be done is posting videos like yours...My hat is off to you for that!

Paladin

05-03-2010, 12:29 PM

I think pepper sprays, stun guns, etc. could be useful in these incidents as well...those criminals/attackers would have sthg to remember all their lives besides getting shot at by police or home defenders :)...Imagine bad guys lying on the streets unable to see/continue attacking their victims...I just remembered and found videos of two other epic failures of pepper spray. I've bookmarked them for future reference.

In this first one, the LEO was killed after being shot and run over by the BG who was pepper sprayed. That's right, the BG was able to still see and shot the LEO, ran him down, and drove away!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p4FK6Eq-ZA

The second one also gives you an example of why I'll be CCWing a revolver once CA goes "Shall Issue" or its equivalent: because of the likelihood of needing to shoot during H2H combat where a semi is more likely to jam, esp with a contact shot. It also demonstrates that you have to hit the vitals of the BG and you do not stop shooting until the BG is down and out of the fight.
http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2006/11/11/real-video-of-a-cop-getting-his-***-kicked-shooting-him-with-pepper-spray-and-a-bullet-only-made-him-madder/

As I wrote above, a significant fraction of the BG population seems relatively immune to pepper spray.

CCWFacts

05-03-2010, 5:22 PM

As I wrote above, a significant fraction of the BG population seems relatively immune to pepper spray.

Clearly. Normal people have a hard time understanding, the "BG population" is often immune not just to pepper spray, but to pain and consideration of consequences in general. That's why they're "BGs". Abnormal pain resistance is a feature of psychopathic personality. It's the physical-level counterpart to the higher-level feature of not caring about consequences in general.

We develop our "moral compass" (in part) through being punished as children. Those few of us who don't feel pain (physical or mental) from being punished, are less likely to develop a moral compass and a respect for rules and order. I think this also happens with children who are punished excessively (abused), to where they stop feeling it, or it's so much that it's not linked to their actions.

Those who are fundamentally unwilling to follow society's most basic rules (don't attack and rob people) are also from the group that doesn't feel pain or care about consequences. That's why pepper spray is most likely to fail when you need it the most, and that's why it's it's necessary to hit disabling targets like the heart or brain to stop an attack.

JDoe

05-03-2010, 9:01 PM

In this first one, the LEO was killed after being shot and run over by the BG who was pepper sprayed. That's right, the BG was able to still see and shot the LEO, ran him down, and drove away!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p4FK6Eq-ZA

I've seen too many people get sprayed by pepper spray and just shrug it off. Pepper spray is good but I wouldn't ever bet my life on it working.

Same thing with a Taser. I've seen two examples where the BG just pulled the probes out and kept on doing bad guy stuff. A Taser is good but I wouldn't bet my life on that either.

weqo

05-03-2010, 10:40 PM

The quote by Mrs. Cheng towards the bottom might also explain part of the problem: she attributes her getting mugged and thrown off of a train station platform to "bad luck" (victim mentality?), whereas I think most of us would attribute that assault and battery to the Bad Guy (BG). Is this due to cultural differences?

i definitely think that part of the problem is due to cultural differences but in this specific instance, it's probably a translational issue. syntax in chinese while referring to sensitive topics tends to be very indirect; for example, if i were speaking to another in chinese about a robbery or rape or whatever, and i absolutely had to refer to it, i would refer to it as "the unfortunate event." otherwise, i would probably skirt around it because what i was talking about would generally be understood.

if i were to guess, the translation was done by someone who would generally be considered fluent in both languages, but was unable to grasp the nuances of one of the them. she was probably trying to say something like "i hope people can learn from this unfortunate incident"

CCWFacts

05-03-2010, 11:35 PM

i definitely think that part of the problem is due to cultural differences but in this specific instance, it's probably a translational issue.

That sounds like a good analysis.

I also think there's another factor: the Chron can't print some of their real opinions on this issue. I'm sure that ordinary Chinese in SF aren't saying, "we need more dialog". What they might be saying, the Chron doesn't want to hear because it probably doesn't fit their liberal concept of how to make progress.

JDoe

05-05-2010, 11:52 AM

Maybe it's time to print up some CCW flyers, in Chinese and English, and get them out to these neighborhoods?

Hey CCWFacts, what do you think about passing out flyers to other neighborhoods?

CCWFacts

05-05-2010, 2:12 PM

Hey CCWFacts, what do you think about passing out flyers to other neighborhoods?

I think it could be a good idea, but any type of passing out flyers in any neighborhood has to be done in a way that's appropriate and sensitive. Flyer handouts can be tricky. Probably some more experienced political activists would have more specific "how to" ideas.