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Monday, October 24, 2016

the forever gun book 8

THE FOREVER GUN BOOK 8

9MM RELOADS

Before I cover the 32 or
38, which do away with semi-automatics and in one case don’t even require an
additional firearm, I’m going to go over the 9mm.Simply, it is wicked cheap due to its global
popularity.Additionally, it reloads
much better, having a thicker case wall.Here we have another classic AK verses AR or revolver verses semi.Neither choice is ever perfect because each
one has its good points and its bad.To
get one desired characteristic you must accept an undesirable one at the same
time.The AK is robust as hell, which is
perfect for the apocalypse, yet its primary directive is to sling lead
downrange-not to be accurate.You need
to preserve ammo once the factories close down.The AR is accurate as can be, a midrange sniper rifle if you don’t gay
it up making it a sub-machinegun.Yet,
it is a fragile wallflower and must be pampered-NOT what you want when your
life is on the line in combat.There are
very few perfect combo guns, both robust and accurate ( the HK 91 and clones
come close ).And so it goes with
pistols and their ammo.

*

The great thing about 9mm
firearms is their affordability.It
shouldn’t be too much of an issue getting both a carbine ( taking pistol mags )
and a semi pistol for about $500 ( hi-point brand ).The ammo is cheap-17 cents for steel cased,
around a quarter a round in brass.The
bad thing is, they are semi-automatic.I’m
not sure if you can alter the gas feed on the carbine ( say, as you would an
SKS ) and while I’ve been told they do sell 9mm revolvers I can’t imagine such
a niche gun is very cheap.Everyone
seems to fall all over themselves assuring me that in the heat of combat they,
being the superist studliest ninja warriors of all time, will be able to Jedi
mind control their stress away and practice fire discipline.Sure, good luck with that.But aside from the semi issue, 9mm is really the
best way to go.

*

I’m assuming you have a
source of lead.You can probably forget
the tire shops.Every store seems to
have all their wheel weights already going to a reloader-if you don’t have a
buddy working there, you can forget that ( and besides, they aren’t totally
free.You need to bribe the guy with
occasional beer ).Look at buying old
batteries ( if you know how to safely salvage the lead from them ), or far
better look for a metal recycling place.Our local business sells lead-either pure or not ( no skimming of
impurities, which you can easily accomplish yourself ).If you don’t plan on casting your own bullets
( the Lee brand is $42 )( all prices in this book were taken from www.midwayusa.com
in September/October 2016 ) you can forget about cheaply reloading.It doubles your cost, from seven cents to
14.Yes, I said seven cents.You’ll remember that rimfire is a minimum of
a dime each ( unless you engage in the not very recommended reloading of the 22
).

*

You are buying supplies
for 10,000 rounds.You can do less and
you probably won’t pay too much more per round.I’m just under the assumption you wouldn’t buy a cheap pistol or carbine
unless it was for a Forever Arsenal, and there is really no point in a Forever
Arsenal without it being accompanied by too much less than ten thousand rounds
of ammunition ( again, 10k is an arbitrary number.You could feel comfortable with five
thousand, or insist on a minimum of twenty.I‘ve set it at ten thousand as it seems a nice large number that allows
me to sleep better at night.Always
assume Murphy‘s Law-have more of everything, more than you‘ll ever think of
needing ).Primers are going to be three
cents each.Powder is even less at two
to two and a half cents per round ( I assume a thousand rounds of reloads per
pound of powder.You can use less per
round but I’d worry about diminishing wounding and action cycling issues
).

*

As for brass, I’m assuming
ten reloads is not even close to too many.This is using once fired brass which sells for seven cents.Buying a thousand rounds should get you ten
thousand reloads.If you are buying
unprimed factory new brass it is seventeen cents each.If you feel comfortable taken new brass and
reloading it twenty times ( I have no experience with this myself ) than the
price difference is a mute point.So,
either way the brass costs a cent a round.A three cent primer, a two cent charge of powder and a penny case run
you six cents each.Call lead one or two
cents.Seven cent 9mm verses ten cent
rimfire.For a better performing
round.Now, obviously, if you decide to
reload rimfire and have found a cheap rifle, you can have that forever gun for
a mere $300.But if those reloads strike
you as less than promising in reliability, let’s break down the 9mm Forever
Gun.A carbine and five thousand reloads
is about $700.Throw in the pistol for a
$1,000 total.Ten thousand reloads and
both guns are $1,400 ( I‘ve ignored the magazine cost ).

*

There is the shotgun
adaptor for the 9mm ( I can‘t vouch for its accuracy ).Call it in the neighborhood of $100.If you already own the shotgun, going with
this option and the reloads runs you $800.Now, there is the matter of the reloading equipment.I recommend Lee brand, specifically the old
timey Lee Loader.Most people piss and
bemoan the type, insisting it won’t reload fast enough.I say, What?, you got a job you need to be
to, after the apocalypse?You aren’t
supposed to be spaying and praying, so why do you need so much ammo so
quick?The loader is $28 and the bullet
mold $42 for a total of $70.I don’t
know if I’d trust a single unit ( in the loader.The bullet mold should be close to
indestructible ).I own two for my
Enfield and only plan on loading around 3k rounds ( remember the saying, One Is
None And Two Is One.That is why you don’t
only own one expensive gun, but two middlin price ones.Why you have more than one grain grinder,
etc. ).On another note, I have ignored
shipping costs.I figure you about pay
the same, either reloading components or rimfire, so it is a wash in comparing
prices.

END

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35 comments:

IMHO - Thanks to the popularity of the 9mm, adding the salvage option to the reload option 9mm makes excellent sense for a calibre of choice. Yes the guns that shoot 9mm both carbine and pistol are semis BUT it is easy enough to get cheapish magazines that hold California legal (aka less than 10) rounds per magazine which can put you into a significantly reduced number of shots per swap, only a few more shots between swaps than a single shot non-clip fed gun. Buy lots of the magazines and you have your built in shot control with only a little more round expendature than a single shot. Primers, Powder, lead, are all useful for many calibres. Brass and reloading equip is the only thing to concern youself having the right calibre for.

Or, you just gather up all the stuff scattered throughout your domicile that you don't use and sell it, then use the proceeds to buy all the proper stuff you will need in the future and avoid all the silly scrimping.

“and while I’ve been told they do sell 9mm revolvers I can’t imagine such a niche gun is very cheap.”

Correct James. It's the Ruger .357 Blackhawk. The 1st cylinder allows for the .357\.38 special combo, and the 2nd is for the 9mm. Apparently the bullet diameter is the same on both. But I'm pretty sure the Blackhawk isn't all that cheap anymore, so probably not worth it unless you already planned on buying one.

I hesitated mentioning this combo, since as far as I know, there isn't a rifle chambered for it that isn't a semi-auto. But the Ruger Blackhawk also comes chambered in the 30 M1 Carbine. And of course we're all familiar with the Universal Arms .30 M1 rifle that was used in WW2. My late father loved this round for some reason, but I never understood the infatuation myself? Before I'd get this caliber, I'd get the .357\.38. There are at least a few rifles out there, and many pistols chambered for the .357\.38, though most of the rifles that I saw were lever actions, which are fine with me.

It's been several years since I or my father have reloaded James, and I honesty can't recall how many reloads you can get out of a brass case, but I'm sure it's easy enough to google these days. I think my father got quite a few reloads, say around 15 to 20, and threw them away before the cases even started to split. So unless you're loading them hot, the brass lasts a long time.

Apparently brass that is annealed can last a very long time, with reports of getting 40+ reloads as a result. To be honest, I never heard of this process until just a few minutes ago, but thought I'd mention it anyhow.

Some brass is more prone to early death than other. Necked rifle case doesn't last as long as straight wall pistol cases. The two best things to do is neck size only ( using the Lee Loader accomplishes this ) and annealing ( heat up the case neck in the camp fire and then dunk in water ). The love of the 30 carbine was probably for the guns reliability rather than the round. New M1 Carbines are being manufactured but at a stiff price.

The biggest drawback of 9x19mm is that it won't go through level-3a soft body armor the way that any/every rifle cartridge will. The solution is the same one suggested to shooters facing rifle plates: "aim small" and "Heads & Hips". Even shooting a hand/arm or foot/leg (sloppy cover/concealment) with 9mm/22LR is going to at least slow down a hunger/greed-motivated refugee-looter-soldier.

Most American citizens don't own any kind of armor, even though it's not unlawful to do so. It's not even expensive, if you have time to shop. Wouldn't you feel better if the old lady and kids were wearing some nice warm used Kevlar panels. Not plates, because they will hate them, but vests that will absorb fragments and ricochets, saving everyone a PITA. A buddy of mine got shot with a .22 from a pistol being mishandled (at a controlled range holding a contest, with the County Sheriff & Deputies everywhere) by a seemingly-functional 23 year old man with an uncleared jam. It stopped in buddy's vest rather than wrecking a kidney. All manner of excitement ensued! Lesson: own a vest & wear it any time guns are around.

Nothing is as demoralizing to a small team assaulting your position as having one of theirs fixed in place with a broken hip, howling for hours in the open. Hell no, I'm not going to put another round in her! That's a job for her team if they can't stand the noise.

Kevlar seems to be a slam dunk, except for a few issues. Heat stroke. Decreased mobility. Once they know you have it, a face shot ( a body shot might have been survivable ). Not saying it isn't great, just saying the trade-offs might negate the advantages.

9x19mm is like every cartridge in that performance can be greatly improved by using an expensive engineered bullet. The reference bullet will be a home-cast one, made from scraps of lead or soft-lead firmed up with some tin/antimony from plumbing solder (or silver, if you've got some). The next step up is using gas checks. http://www.hornady.com/store/Gas-ChecksYou get less leading in the barrel. Not quite as awesome as a jacketed bullet, but a worthy improvement for price, esp. if you can't get alloys to firm the lead you are casting.

Here's about the most I would want to pay for performance: a quarter per bullet. Not for mass-fire! For getting 150# of meat with the 9mm carbine.http://www.hornady.com/store/9mm-.355-124-gr-HP-XTP/

and then somewhat-compromised (but only compared to the XTP!) JHP for 12 cents each. Brand name. http://www.hornady.com/store/9mm-.355-115-gr-HAP-Bulk-Box-of-3000/Less Than a dime each ($349 free ship, 3750 qty, no-brand) http://www.evergladesammo.com/9mm-124gr-jhp-rn-v2.html

Why buy bullets when you have almost-free lead & all the tools to cast? You can avoid melting lead and breathing fumes. Heavy metal self-poisoning is best left to people who don't value their future, when there are other reasonable (pre-collapse) options to build a pile of ammo.

An exhaust hood venting fumes is immensely superior to wind at your back outdoors. Have you ever noticed that when you have the wind at your back and you step up to the fire that the smoke goes right into your face? That's a low-pressure zone at your mouth/nose/eyes made by the wind at your back. At least, don't breathe hot metal vapors and wash your hands before eating or smoking. Leave clothes worn while handling metals in a shed or garage area so as not to contaminate kitchen or sleeping areas. Bucket-wash work clothes to not contaminate family washing machine. You can't be too paranoid about heavy metal poisoning, since it's lifetime-cumulative with almost no symptoms, until you are in a world of hurt.pdxr13

You want the wind at your side, not at your back. I first learnt this when piddleing outside in a gale. send the stream upwind and you end up with wet feet, send the stream directly down wind and you end up with wet feet, send your stream across the wind and your good to go. Same with smoke/vapour from a fire. Aussie

I was a 22 man till I broke down the cost. The 9mm is a much better "bang for the buck". I have a 9 my son and daughter also so if we pooled our ammo and I got powder primers we would exceed 10000 shots with whats in house now.

If you are going to rely on reloading for the long term, revolvers make a lot more sense than semi auto pistols particularly if in the future your forced to use scrounged components.

Revolvers don't spray there empty cases hiver and yonder to be lost in the grass or rubble.

Good solid revolvers are much more forgiving of imperfectly loaded ammo, I once read that Ruger couldn't stuff enough powder into a 357m case to blow up there GP100, but don't try that at home kids. More importantly auto pistols need a minimum power to cycle the action, reloading in the future from improvised components people will tend to er on the side of caution and load light, this can also blow guns up (google squib loads), and light loads may not cycle the action of a semi auto. I would be more confident fireing a revolver loaded with match heads or home made black powder than a auto.

A case that's start to split on say a 357 mag can be trimmed to 38spc length, and I could imagine a 38spc could be trimmed even shorter to a 38 colt length, and all could be used in a 357m revolver.

Primers, particularly if they haven't been stored correctly can deteriorate causing miss fires, a miss fire in a revolver you simple pull the trigger again, miss fire in a auto and the gun needs to be manually cycled.

As for leaver actions, they to have a lot going for them, along with some negatives of cause. 357m becomes a real screamer out of a carbine length barrel and approaches the 30/30 in power with a much lower muzzle blast as practically all the powder of a pistol case is burnt in a carbine length barrel. I shoot 38spc+p in a carbine and they perform really well, kill much better than they have any right to on medium sized game all with a procieved report of a 22lr.

Leaver actions are just so easy to carry, sleek and fin without knobbly bits sticking out that jag on stuff. Tubular magazines have advantages and disadvantages. Disadvantages are that extra loaded magazines cant be carried, but on the plus side the magazine can be topped up while the gun is cocked and locked, ready to fire.

The main reason leaver actions never were taken up by the worlds militaries to any great extent was that they are not suited shooting while prone. Leaver action armed soldiers tended to lift there head to cycle the action and get it shot off. Bolt action rifles will once again rule the battle fields of the future but there will still be a place for the leaver action, more of a civilian defensive gun. Aussie .

.357Mag cases are made of thicker metal than .38sp or even .38sp+p cases. You can use a .357 case in a .38sp pistol by trimming down the length 1mm and adjusting your load for case volume. These are going to be "weak" loads for a .357Mag to be "safe" in a .38sp pistol. Mark and keep separate such cases, since they are headstamped .357Mag and could be confused. The advantage is that the brass is very sturdy compared to .38sp for use in a .38sp pistol.

Just re-read the above post and you clearly state that you intend to discuse 32's and 38's and I assume 357m in the future. I apologise for crapping on about 357m so much now and not weighting, your blog you get to call the shots(no pun intended). Aussie

I did an article on the 32, then I kind of crapped out and let the 38 slide. I love revolvers, but I got tired of writing on this particular subject, was in a bad mood that day, and just wrapped it up with a tirade. And don't be afraid of "crapping on". I need real feedback, not Yes Men. Look at some of my old stuff-the blog has improved over the years. Mostly as I become a better writer through practice, but also because I have a bunch of intelligent readers who keep me educated. Some readers are just dicks, but they help pad the count on traffic :)

Well its lucky I did crap on about 357m some then as if I hadn't the gentle reader would have missed out on some concise hard hitting information.

So I take your above post as permission to crap on when ever and on what ever subject takes my fancy then Mr Dakin. I guess you can always just ignore and not publish any of my posts if they get to tiresome. Aussie

I welcome others input-most are smarter than I on niche matters. I can do Big Picture, but need specialist info. For instance, I just included the info on using 357 cases trimmed down to replace 38 with their much thinner walls. I had no idea that was a "thing". Bottom line, I NEED my readers and their expertise. I can ignore your info, but I certainly welcome it as more often than not I learn from it. If you don't learn something new every day, you aren't growing. In fact, I demand that you crap on!

The Ruger LCR is a good double action only 9mm revolver, about $600-650 out the door with all the taxes/fees. Has a five-round cylinder, 1-7/8" barrel, and takes moon clips. You can load and fire without the moon clips if necessary, but you'd have to manually eject the empties (dowel). The ballistics on it are equivalent to a 3" semi-auto. You'll want to only use 124 grain or heavier bullets unless the rounds are crimped due to the light weight of the revolver causing the bullets to walk forward in the case during recoil.

Here's your solution to overheating in soft body armor. It also reduces blunt force trauma on your side by maybe 50%.

If you want to start out with inexpensive, ready-to-go ammunition that you can reload after firing, here's a good place to compare prices: http://www.gunbot.net/ammo/pistol/9mm/

Check the box next to "Filter Steelcase" to eliminate the non-reloadable steel-cased stuff, ignore the aluminum-cased Blazer rounds (also not reloadable), and you'll see rounds starting at 19 cents each (not including shipping).

Admittedly, this is more expensive than starting with components and bullets you cast yourself (don't forget to buy some bullet lube!) but it gets you ready while you gather everything and get set up.

I think I'd buy half again more empty brass, as the small case can be quickly lost in the rural landscapes. It often bounces into crannys where it is very hard to retrieve.

The Ruger Blackhawk was one 9mm Para. revolver, there were others. S&W even made one that did not require 'moon clips' to use way back in 1980s, that model the 547. Supposedly designed for export to a European police force (France ?). Charco made the Pitbull 9mm, but I don't recall if it is still manufactured.

Bare-Minimum, first. Too many guns or too much gold might leave us hungry and unsheltered, if those requirements have not been minimally taken care of first. Folks can read archives to learn how "minimal" this really is, but without operational internet/banking/grid-power and trucking, it might as well be on the moon because your paper/digital credit won't get it. Now is the time to own the Minimal, but rfs will probably work.

This week might be a fantastic time to get to a gun show with your surplus (to you) AR-15/FAL/M-1G to walk the aisles with a private-party 4Sale sign and a phone number to your just-bought burner phone. An H. (s)election + a D. majority in the Senate will bring us AWB-II without a sunset, or at very-least a nibbling of right-to-own firearms by people accepting public subsidy (AFDC/EBT/SSI/SSD/military-disabled) or designated by any physician or "mental health professional" without a jury trial or a process to get them restored, and much panic-pricing/buying for the "last chance".

Around here 9mm mostly once fired brass is about $30 per thousand. .38 is around $40, and .45 is $50 - $80 per thousand. 5 gn of Bullseye will load a .45 to around factory specs and will yield 1400 reloads per pound of powder. Pretty good deal.

The HiPoint units are blowback operated, so there is no gas tube. Lead projectiles tend to clog up gas tubes in pretty short order.

The HK-91 / PTR-91 are also blowback designs so they can be used with lead projectiles, just if you run over around 2,000 fps you need gas checks. That presumes that you are using around hardness 18 lead. Pure lead is 5 - 8 hardness. The old wheel weights are around 18 or so.

What confuses me is that right now, a week and a half to the election, nobody is panic buying. I would be thinking to buy before the panic starts. So either no one can afford it, or nobody believes Hilary will be elected. Or, they are all a bunch of morons.

I must moderate-trust me. You don't want to see what happens otherwise. Sometimes it takes awhile to respond as I only check two or three times a day. No N-Bombs, nothing to get me libeled. Otherwise, have at it. If you criticize me, make sure to praise my hair first.