Here's another perspective, from Terrence, though I don't really agree with it.

"I think the biggest mistake in your question is the assumption that the foreigners are themselves middle class. It doesn't matter their family or background, old dudes living in the Philippines on $1000 per month pension are NOT middle class. They may be able to afford a higher lifestyle in the Philippines on that meager income, but that is POOR period. In the end, the class is in the PERSON and not the income, so regardless of how well they stretch that pension in the PI, they know they are poor and come across as poor and probably approach middle class or well off girls with a mindset of unworthiness just like they would feel approaching a girl in their own country.

Think about it. You can go deep into the ghetto in America and easily get a poor girl who is likely to be a gold digger. But the same guy would be shy to approach a well dressed, well off girl, and if he only made $1000 a month, he already "knows" that girl wouldn't give him the time of day. (It doesn't matter if that is true or not, it is in his mind and will come across in his manner)

When a foreigner of that mindset approaches a middle class or well off girl, all the same reasons he couldn't get a date in his home country apply.

Here's a real question, why is it possible for the foreigner to date Korean or Japanese girls, who probably have more money than the middle class filipina?"

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World

WWu777 wrote:W: But you're assuming that if I spent more time with them, that I'd be dating them more. That's not necessarily the case. Like I said, even if I met them, they would often just chat in a friendly polite tone and that would be it. Anyone can make polite conversation but it doesn't mean they're interested in you personally or want to go out with you alone, let alone start a romance.

But the question is, why don't most foreigners here date middle class girls of their own class, and instead end up with lower class women?

This is like deja vu from people who commented that all the farangs in Thailand somehow end up with an Isan girl.

What is the supply condition of middle-class girls in your local area?

W: I wouldn't know, since most middle class girls drive cars, live in gated communities, and do not go to the nightlife here much. Or if they do, I'm on a date and don't get a chance to meet them. They are often buying things at the mall, but if so, are not open to talking to strangers much.

But I would assume that there must be many middle class Filipinas somewhere, since how can the whole SM Mall thing stay in business unless many people are consistently buying the expensive clothes they sell there? Not even the mall workers, who are from the poverty class and make only 150 pesos per DAY, can afford to buy anything at the mall. And the bar girls send all their money back to their family in the province. So who are the masses of people that keep the malls in business and can actually buy things there? There must be a huge hidden middle class that I don't see?

There are girls I know here with money but they were not born into the middle class. They usually came from poor families and then married a foreigner, or were married to one, then somehow got some of his money and perhaps still do.

I have not yet met girls who were born into the middle class.

But then again, rich people never say "I'm rich". They are always modest and say that they are not rich, so you never know who really is rich unless you know them well and gauge their spending habits.

Last edited by Winston on Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World

WWu777 wrote:The only types of middle class people that are friendly are avid travelers, those with a spiritual focus in life, like to do humanitarian or charity work, or those that dream of going abroad (ameriphiles) and are tired of their own culture.

fmiddle class people who are friendly and avid travellers? those with a spiritual focus in life? do humanitarian and charity work? ameriphiles? people tired of their own culture?

honestly...are you not oversimplifying people this way???

seriously... how can someone with spiritual focus be an ameriphile or hate his/her own culture???

could it be that you could not find that "ideal middle class filipina" simply because you're too preoccupied with "matching the right labels" instead of simply going out there, meet people AS PEOPLE, and accept them for their individual uniqueness and weaknesses???

W: I think you misunderstood me. I meant those with a spiritual focus OR those who are ameriphiles, not AND.

But even if I said "and", it is still possible to have spiritual interests and hate something. Being spiritual doesn't mean you are a monk with no faults or desires. We are all still human. Spiritual people can have strong opinions, get horny, get wild, drink a lot, etc. though they will tend to focus on those things less. Being spiritual means you have spiritual INTERESTS and DESIRES, not that you live a "pure life". That is a misunderstanding of spirituality. Do you get my point?

No I am not preoccupied with matching labels. It's just that I do not tend to meet very many middle class Filipinas, or they aren't that open to talking to strangers. But speaking of labels, you may have a personal grudge against the use of labels, like the hippies I know do, but it is still true nevertheless, that patterns among people exist, and that most people I put labels act out in accordance with my prediction. Labels are not absolute stereotypes nor do I view them that way. They are probabilities and patterns, which exist, even though hippies hate them for some reason.

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World

Dear Nataku,
Thanks for your deep input. It appears that you are a local to the Philippines? I think I know who you are though

Anyhow, I have some questions for you.

So you are saying that you recommend that foreigners go to the provinces to meet girls? How would they meet girls there? I heard the provinces are kind of conservative. And how would it be different than the urban areas?

Also, how can we meet the middle class girls such as:

1) Those nursing students wearing white uniforms that hang out in groups. They seem oblivious to anyone they don't know and don't even look at anyone not in their group.

2) Those white skinned Filipinas who drive their cars to the mall, shop, buy clothes, then go to their cars in the parking lot.

Obviously, since poor girls and bar girls can't afford the prices of clothes at the SM mall, there must be many middle class Filipinas who shop there and buy things, right?

Aren't the middle class girls with cars who keep the malls in business, closer to the Filipinas you see in the movies here, who never bring money into a relationship, and have natural romances with other middle class young males?

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World

WWu777 wrote: So you are saying that you recommend that foreigners go to the provinces to meet girls? How would they meet girls there? I heard the provinces are kind of conservative. And how would it be different than the urban areas?

If you really want to connect with the people and try to understand their culture and values...if you really want to find a lasting and meaningful relationship...then yes...leave the cities and go to where the "real" philippines is...

But... if you just want a quick shag... or boost your ego and your machismo for a few foreign cash..."then may I suggest you confine yourself to Fields Avenue and STAY AWAY FROM OUR WOMEN!" (just quoting a popular Kapampangan sentiment.)

NB: when the flow of American GIs into Angeles City seemed inevitable, the Kapampangan old guards say there is a reason why Fields Avenue was built across the bridge: "so that the Amerikan filth would be confined to that one strip... separated by the river and not infect the decent population in the town center." The town center I guess is where all the "middle class" women are kept safe from the foreigners who roam the land across the bridge...

WWu777 wrote:Also, how can we meet the middle class girls such as:

1) Those nursing students wearing white uniforms that hang out in groups. They seem oblivious to anyone they don't know and don't even look at anyone not in their group.

If you're talking about Angeles City and you're "that kind" of a foreigner, not a chance. And no one would help you. You'll always be getting the "cheap and greedy bar girls from Fields Avenue". Angeles City has two faces: the face where foreigners are welcome allowed to roam free (Baligago...that piece of real estate across the bridge) and the face where the so-called "decent" population lives where foreigners of "that kind" (Fields Avenue type) are unwelcome.

Those nursing students who grew up on "the other side of the bridge" grew up as part of a the population that for generations distrusted foreigners. So unless you live with them and show them you're different from "that kind" and court them for at least 2 years according to tradition... "then may I suggest you confine yourself to Fields Avenue and STAY AWAY FROM OUR WOMEN!" (haha... sorry for that)

WWu777 wrote:2) Those white skinned Filipinas who drive their cars to the mall, shop, buy clothes, then go to their cars in the parking lot.

Just a note. If you're talking about Kapampangan women and Kapampangan people in general, some of them, especially the "educated" and "nationalistic" kind, may hate the term "Filipino/Filipina"... so not a chance talking to them if you keep calling them that. Kapampangans, especially the upper classes, wouldn't like to be lumped in with the rest of "the properties of King Philip". Also, the upper classes buy their clothes in Hong Kong and Bangkok. They'll hate you if you said you saw them buy their clothes at the mall. All they do at the mall is buy groceries, not clothes.

Anyway...same answer as in the above...if you're "that kind" of a foreigner..."stay away"...

WWu777 wrote:Obviously, since poor girls and bar girls can't afford the prices of clothes at the SM mall, there must be many middle class Filipinas who shop there and buy things, right?

I guess you don't know the locals. The reason why poor girls become bar girls is so that they can afford to buy clothes at SM.

The upper classes do their groceries at the mall but their clothes are either tailor made, bought for them by their relatives in the US and Europe, or do their shopping in HK and Thailand... I am talking about the general trend though... I'm not speaking for everyone... who buys the clothes at SM then? Why don't you people watch next time and do a survey... you'll be surprised that a majority of them come from the lower classes... many of them saving for months just to buy a shirt that they liked...

but I digress... we're not talking about clothes right???

WWu777 wrote:Aren't the middle class girls with cars who keep the malls in business

nope... at least not in angeles city... like I said... would you like to do an income survey of mall customers SM one time?

WWu777 wrote:who never bring money into a relationship

I think all women...regardless of ethnicity and social class...ALWAYS bring up the issue of money in a relationship...no?

ladislav wrote:It is generally more difficult than in 1st world countries because middle class people are more spoiled by virtue of relativity- they have millions of desperately poor ready to serve them. Through that, they are pickier, more finicky and have a greater degree of entitlement. A teacher in the USA will not have servants; in poorer countries they will. So, girls there are used to being served upon.

great observation

ladislav wrote:There is also the nationalism factor which is present in most societies- it is also a luxury of the middle class- they have time and money to be nationalistic.

nataku wrote:If you really want to connect with the people and try to understand their culture and values...if you really want to find a lasting and meaningful relationship...then yes...leave the cities and go to where the "real" philippines is...

W: But some people, including Ladislav, said the girls in the provinces are really conservative and shy, so how can you meet them?

But another friend of mine though, who is in Suriago, said that the girls in the province approach him all the time when he is alone, contrary to what Ladislav said.

Also, how can we meet the middle class girls such as:

1) Those nursing students wearing white uniforms that hang out in groups. They seem oblivious to anyone they don't know and don't even look at anyone not in their group.

Nataku:If you're talking about Angeles City and you're "that kind" of a foreigner, not a chance. And no one would help you. You'll always be getting the "cheap and greedy bar girls from Fields Avenue". Angeles City has two faces: the face where foreigners are welcome allowed to roam free (Baligago...that piece of real estate across the bridge) and the face where the so-called "decent" population lives where foreigners of "that kind" (Fields Avenue type) are unwelcome.

Those nursing students who grew up on "the other side of the bridge" grew up as part of a the population that for generations distrusted foreigners. So unless you live with them and show them you're different from "that kind" and court them for at least 2 years according to tradition... "then may I suggest you confine yourself to Fields Avenue and STAY AWAY FROM OUR WOMEN!" (haha... sorry for that)

W: I'm not talking about meeting them for sex though. I just mean having conversations with them. How can you meet them when they don't talk to strangers and are oblivious to anything outside their group? I don't mind if they are conservative or virgins or whatever, that is understandable, but why do they have to be anti-social? Can't conservative people be open and friendly?

And furthermore, I heard that they are in the nursing program because they want to go overseas. If so, then wouldn't they be more friendly with foreigners and interested in language/culture exchange or something?

2) Those white skinned Filipinas who drive their cars to the mall, shop, buy clothes, then go to their cars in the parking lot.

Nataku:Just a note. If you're talking about Kapampangan women and Kapampangan people in general, some of them, especially the "educated" and "nationalistic" kind, may hate the term "Filipino/Filipina"... so not a chance talking to them if you keep calling them that. Kapampangans, especially the upper classes, wouldn't like to be lumped in with the rest of "the properties of King Philip". Also, the upper classes buy their clothes in Hong Kong and Bangkok. They'll hate you if you said you saw them buy their clothes at the mall. All they do at the mall is buy groceries, not clothes.

Anyway...same answer as in the above...if you're "that kind" of a foreigner..."stay away"...

W: Oh really? I didn't know that upper class people here don't like buying clothes at the mall. So far, I haven't met any girls here that didn't like being called a "Filipina" yet.

I didn't say I was that kind of a foreigner. I just mean meeting them socially, not trying to get laid.

Obviously, since poor girls and bar girls can't afford the prices of clothes at the SM mall, there must be many middle class Filipinas who shop there and buy things, right?

Nataku:I guess you don't know the locals. The reason why poor girls become bar girls is so that they can afford to buy clothes at SM.

The upper classes do their groceries at the mall but their clothes are either tailor made, bought for them by their relatives in the US and Europe, or do their shopping in HK and Thailand... I am talking about the general trend though... I'm not speaking for everyone... who buys the clothes at SM then? Why don't you people watch next time and do a survey... you'll be surprised that a majority of them come from the lower classes... many of them saving for months just to buy a shirt that they liked...

but I digress... we're not talking about clothes right???

W: What is wrong with clothes in the mall? Some of them are really good quality. But a bit overpriced. Bench for example, has hip sleek shirts that fit in with pop culture and what Filipino young men wear on TV.

All I know is that most girls I know here are either broke, make 150p a day, or always poor and can't afford anything. So who are all the masses of people who can afford 350p shirts and 1000p jeans? Surely not the bar girls. Most of them do not make enough. The few that do send it all to their parents. Or go shopping with their boyfriends. But for all the SM malls to operate, there must be many people buying expensive clothes. And what about in Manila? There are many SM's there, tons of them. Who buys all that expensive shit to keep so many SM's running? It doesn't add up.

We are discussing clothes because that is the main product at SM malls.

Aren't the middle class girls with cars who keep the malls in business

Nataku:nope... at least not in angeles city... like I said... would you like to do an income survey of mall customers SM one time?

W: Well it wouldn't do much good if I took a survey of shopper at the mall. First, they would think it strange that a stranger is asking about their income. And second, everyone says "I'm not rich", including the rich, out of modesty, so it wouldn't do any good. The only way to gauge class level is by their habits and behavior and the manner in which they fulfill their needs and desires. Nice clothes do not reveal class here, since poor girls can get nice clothes too. Some people by the way they walk and sit, look like they are used to comfort, and that delineates a certain level of class too.

But let's forget these labels about the middle class for the moment, since you don't like labels. Perhaps a more accurate question is:

"How can a foreigner here meet and date women who are NOT always broke and needing cash from them, and who can pay things on her own, and comes from a self-sufficient family that isn't looking for outside foreign support?"

Perhaps that's the big question here? I don't mean rich girls or the girls you see in the movies who are surrounded by luxury. Just girls who aren't broke and have a little bit of financial power?

WWu777 wrote:who never bring money into a relationship

Nataku:I think all women...regardless of ethnicity and social class...ALWAYS bring up the issue of money in a relationship...no?

W: Yes, money is a part of life and a part of relationships. What I meant is a girl who doesn't always ask for money from their boyfriend or make it a condition of the relationship, a more natural and equal partnership so to speak. Like what you see in the movies here.

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World

W: But some people, including Ladislav, said the girls in the provinces are really conservative and shy, so how can you meet them?

They are shy and they smile shyly and wait for you to talk to them. If you talk and invite them out, they will go with you- with a chaperon or two to accompany them. There will be dinners and karaoke and a lot of smiles and relatives all over, all friendly and sociable. The girl wil be talking to you a bit and singing and eating/drinking. You will be gong out and meeting friends and relatives.

You will just not be going to a hotel for a quickie because the girl in 95% of cases is a virgin and she wants a long term relationship leading to marriage. A traditional Catholic marriage.

You will find such fairly sociable conservative girls in most Spanish colonies. Smily and shy but no hanky-panky.
Same in Mexico, Puerto Rico, etc.

That is what I mean by conservative. I do not mean conservative like this:

momopi wrote:Would girls working for American Express International in Makati qualify as middle class?

W: I guess so, at least by my standards. By middle class, I basically mean a girl whose family is not broke and has some type of income from their jobs or business and can afford to buy things and eat out and drive around in a car. Since most girls I know here in Angeles are totally broke unless a foreigner is giving them some money, by that standard, anyone with moderate money from traditional sources counts as middle class to me. Why?

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World

ladislav wrote:It is generally more difficult than in 1st world countries because middle class people are more spoiled by virtue of relativity- they have millions of desperately poor ready to serve them. Through that, they are pickier, more finicky and have a greater degree of entitlement. A teacher in the USA will not have servants; in poorer countries they will. So, girls there are used to being served upon.

great observation

ladislav wrote:There is also the nationalism factor which is present in most societies- it is also a luxury of the middle class- they have time and money to be nationalistic.

exactly

My grand-uncle was a medical doctor in Ukraine. In 1940ies he was assigned to a village in the south. He did not have a car, only a horse buggy with a "driver" of the horse. In no 1st world country would such a person be considered rich or middle class. This was in after the end of WWII so people were very poor. When my uncle rode in the buggy on the main street of the village, the folks would line up, take off their hats and bow to him. It was as if President himself rode through town, or, I would say, there was even more respect than for the President himself.

My father would visit him often, and as his nephew, he had the pick of the prettiest girls in the village. Talking about status by virtue of relativity!

Conversely, upon migrating to the US or other such 1st world country, poor low classes quickly become middle class, and those who were high status middle class people with servants back home often lose all their priviledges. If they are non English speakers, they become even lower than the low. A taxi driver buys a house and a plumber makes $37 an hour to start. A doctor from Argentina or Macedonia has a rough ride in front of him, though. Some can never make it.

I was browsing for some possible social experiment about filipinas when I came across this topic. And i cant resist to make an account and to comment on this. Haha

Okay about the topic. Uhm I think its because middle class filipinas are not the greedy type unlike those poor, little prostitutes(sorry for the term). And middle class filipinas can support themselves or doesnt need money since their families have enough.

Uhm I think also that you should ask yourself why you cant find any middle class filipinas or why they wont date you. Maybe try to look at the mirror first and try to dress impressive enough or passable for a middle class filipina's taste. Middle class filipinas like guys who knows how to dress properly.

I am a middle class filipina and yeah tbh i dont like to date foreigners cause people(especially those who do not know me personally) might think i am one of those whores who are only after money. But im still open for a possibility to date one. Well it depends on the situation and the person.

Middle class filipinas also has a large circle of friends(same class) especially those who are college students and the fresh graduates or the young adults. Young adults M.C. filipinas are kinda choosy and would like to date only within our age.

And I really hate those poor bitches cause they are the reason why people from other countries generalize us(filipinas). I hate their attitudes, some of them talk loud, very cheap, has no manners, etc. Well what can you expect from people who didnt go to school.

begone wrote:I was browsing for some possible social experiment about filipinas when I came across this topic. And i cant resist to make an account and to comment on this. Haha

Okay about the topic. Uhm I think its because middle class filipinas are not the greedy type unlike those poor, little prostitutes(sorry for the term). And middle class filipinas can support themselves or doesnt need money since their families have enough.

Uhm I think also that you should ask yourself why you cant find any middle class filipinas or why they wont date you. Maybe try to look at the mirror first and try to dress impressive enough or passable for a middle class filipina's taste. Middle class filipinas like guys who knows how to dress properly.

I am a middle class filipina and yeah tbh i dont like to date foreigners cause people(especially those who do not know me personally) might think i am one of those whores who are only after money. But im still open for a possibility to date one. Well it depends on the situation and the person.

Middle class filipinas also has a large circle of friends(same class) especially those who are college students and the fresh graduates or the young adults. Young adults M.C. filipinas are kinda choosy and would like to date only within our age.

And I really hate those poor bitches cause they are the reason why people from other countries generalize us(filipinas). I hate their attitudes, some of them talk loud, very cheap, has no manners, etc. Well what can you expect from people who didnt go to school.

Oh really? I had a middle-class Pinay plus-sized BBW while I was living in Davao City, and I tore her p***y all up for 2 months before she found out I gave her chlamydia. Yeah, I am truly accountable for not getting medicine. What can I say? I was having fun dropping dick in Angeles City curvy putas raw. I do like the fact that EVERYTHING is OTC in Filipino pharmacies....very cheap too.

"I appreciate the opportunities I have in America. Opportunities that allow me to live abroad." **Smiles** - Have2Fly@H.A. (2013)

"The only way to overcome that is to go abroad to get a broad."
- E. Irizarry (2009)

begone wrote:I was browsing for some possible social experiment about filipinas when I came across this topic. And i cant resist to make an account and to comment on this. Haha

Okay about the topic. Uhm I think its because middle class filipinas are not the greedy type unlike those poor, little prostitutes(sorry for the term). And middle class filipinas can support themselves or doesnt need money since their families have enough.

Uhm I think also that you should ask yourself why you cant find any middle class filipinas or why they wont date you. Maybe try to look at the mirror first and try to dress impressive enough or passable for a middle class filipina's taste. Middle class filipinas like guys who knows how to dress properly.

I am a middle class filipina and yeah tbh i dont like to date foreigners cause people(especially those who do not know me personally) might think i am one of those whores who are only after money. But im still open for a possibility to date one. Well it depends on the situation and the person.

Middle class filipinas also has a large circle of friends(same class) especially those who are college students and the fresh graduates or the young adults. Young adults M.C. filipinas are kinda choosy and would like to date only within our age.

And I really hate those poor bitches cause they are the reason why people from other countries generalize us(filipinas). I hate their attitudes, some of them talk loud, very cheap, has no manners, etc. Well what can you expect from people who didnt go to school.

Wow!

Is this the attitude of an average middle class Filipina? If so, they'd fit right in the U.S.

Middle Class is often a state of mind. It's not just an income level, job or educational level. Sometimes it's who you believe you are equal to or better than.

My ex-wife's family was from Trinidad, so we went to Trinidad for our honeymoon. We were scheduled to spend a few days staying with some of her cousins. I was expecting denizens of the 3rd world. Instead, they were middle class suburbanites, financially successful, sent their kids to college in the UK, traveled all over the world - and were as arrogant as a wealthy American. Our first night we were taken to a restaurant with about 20 members of the family. The owner of the restaurant came over and personally served us and the family's patriarch ordered dinner for each of us, saying "Dave, you'll like this; Rita, you'll like that." He acted like a Mafia Don or Donald Trump and had nearly that much power and influence in his town. I realized that even in the 3rd world the successful man can be as big an ass as in the U.S. And of course, I also recognized my American arrogance for expecting them to be poor and modest.

So, while I am interested in Begone's perspective, personally I would be cautious with a girl who expressed such views.