Yesterday I read the repost of Tisha's essay and was interested in the section on willpower. I always wondered why some people I know in real life that meditate for long periods never have OBEs or even signposts.

In the past I have absorbed material, possibly from Tom Campbell, suggesting that we are banned from the astral by default and require a good reason to have that lifted.

I have come to believe, perhaps in a sense my mind is poisoned, to think that my reasons for pursuing astral projection aren't good enough to make the cut.

This undermines my willpower and I feel like it is a belief trap. What do you think, friends?

Yeah, on board with the belief trap. I dont think there is set rules saying you need x x y to be in the astral. Or in your case, a good(x) enough(y) of a reason(z) to be in the astral. Dreams can give just as good information as astral projections so who's to say one doesnt have a good enough reason to dream..? You get the idea. Belief trap.

I had this idea lately that either my will(power) was not strong enough although I have a great desire to go astral for EVERY night.

And the other idea was that my targets are not 'worthy' enough. T. Campbell also says that you should seek spiritual growth when 'going out' into NPMR. Fun is not allowed. And I did not even seek fun adventures, I seek information because I love getting knowledge that "could" be reliable.

Well, I'm a compulsive can opener , but I am not certain I understand the topic correctly.

Maybe the statement could be rephrased as "It doesn't matter what one intends to do when attempting Astral Projection as far as success goes, the aptitude is in the genetics of the projector."

I can definitely think of examples of genetic conditions that could hamper one's ability to project, but then it is difficult not to spiral off into nature vs nurture discussions. Many of the aspects pertinent to projection are mental and feel more learned than intrinsic to me.

I think will power is overrated. Once a person has 'that moment' no matter what it is; that is losing weight, learning to play an instrument, ap, whatever that's when it becomes possible. It's that AHA moment when it suddenly makes sense, then it all falls into place and you don't even need willpower, you have something better. Personally I just call it the magic moment. LOL

Now if you want to get into nature versus nurture - whew!! Pull out that can opener.

As in many other cases, the need for willpower is widely stated, but misunderstood and misapplied, hence not fully effective. People embrace slogans like "1% inspiration, 99% perspiration", "no pain, no gain", "just do it", etc., all concentrating on doing, on action, while success is actually brought primarily by thoughts, beliefs, and focus.

In astral projection your will is very important, but not in the sense of willpower, but in the sense of wanting it, not fearing it, while moving your focus away from physical (including your body), and opening a pathway to your subconscious.

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---“Read not to contradict and confute, nor to believe and take for granted, but to weigh and consider.”- Sir Francis Bacon

I think will power is overrated. Once a person has 'that moment' no matter what it is; that is losing weight, learning to play an instrument, ap, whatever that's when it becomes possible. It's that AHA moment when it suddenly makes sense, then it all falls into place and you don't even need willpower, you have something better. Personally I just call it the magic moment. LOL

My thoughts on belief traps. The idea of belief being bad or good or something you can let go of to me is just silly. You have belief, you will have belief traps. Tom Campbell himself says if there is a scale of 0-1 and 0 is for sure something is false and 1 is something is true, nothing can ever be 0 or 1, which means basically however you view the world is your belief because you never can be 100% sure you are right. You can be open-minded to your experiences as supporting or opposing your belief, but the idea that you can somehow remove belief is just not logically possible to me. Instead of trying to replace beliefs with "knowns", what you should do is recognize belief for what it is and be open to the fact your beliefs may be incorrect and need to be replaced with another belief that better fits your experiences. But be aware you aren't replacing it with absolute truth or "knowledge" just a better belief for where you are at that itself probably will need to be replaced with another belief. Simply accept belief for what it is.

My thought is, that the term "will" in this case also aligns with decision. There are many decisions that we make in this practice that re-inforce will. The decision how far to take this practice and what you really want to achieve from it. The decision whether to make it a "daily" part of your reality or to just to use it for that occasional "joyride". One of the biggest decisions and shows of will comes when you are experiencing full blown exit symptoms, with all the juicy trimmings and you are at the fight or flight moment. To this day I always experience some kind of "exit symptom" upon a spontaneous OBE. I also know when I have successfully phased. There is a sense of "knowing" that you have passed the threshold between the realities.

I also have incredible LDs, like last night's "Space Odyssey", quite regularly. That's because every night I still use the mental affirmation before I turn off and go to sleep, that "I am consciously aware knowing my physical vessel lies sleeping. I learn from and enjoy them and have full memory recall of them when I wake up for the day". I learned a long time ago "change your mindset, changes your reality". When applied, you will find that that really is the key to consciously "being", in any state/reality you may find yourself in. You need to welcome it in, as a part of you. When you finally "remember" that it is a part of you, than it will be again.

The entire practice is based on strengthening and "lengthening" your "focused" will and intent. Once you become adept at doing that, you will always find the door wide open.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 12:36:40 by Lumaza »

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“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence." Nicolai Tesla

Who says fun is not allowed in the astral? The only reason I AP is to have fun, discover new worlds, eat that chocolate cake that I cant eat here LOL. I'm done with the spiritual growth. I know it all LOL, now it's reward time But of course if anyone feels guilty that this privilege should not be abused with just fun and believes that effort to learn something must be made, then just this EFFORT type of mentality will be stopping you from APing. Just relax and see where your mind will take you. You can set destinations or you can just go with the flow. But never limit yourself with thoughts of wrong and right. There is no such a thing. Experience of any kind makes us grow anyway no matter where we are, even if we are not aware of it. Willpower to me equals how bad do you want something. If you want it so bad, you will always find a way, or a way will be presented to you by the universe. There is a difference though between "I really really want it" and "I ABSOLUTLEY MUST HAVE IT". Do you see the difference in the INTENTION itself. If you are stuck on the first type of desire (the one that it is present but does not have enough energy charge behind it), then you should spend some time to analyze the exact reasons why do you want to reach the second level of desire. Keep charging it with emotions until you reach that stage of absolutely must have it. Don't tense the desires with fear though, because that will keep tightening thing even more. Always expect the best outcome, never the worst. If you find yourself worrying of the outcome, know that there are endless possibilities, but we have the power to choose at each moment which one to experience. Know your power!

astralm - I'm not arguing here...I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.

Quote from: astralm

The idea of belief being bad or good or something you can let go of to me is just silly.

Good and bad are simply words used to describe how that belief is going for you. So for Thaomas to have the belief that his objectives for projection aren't aligned with whatever Tom Campbell says those objectives should be, then this trap is not serving our Thaomas too well, as it's hindering him from projecting. We might use the word 'bad'.

Surely letting go of beliefs is something we do regularly throughout our lives - no? When you were young, did you believe in Father Christmas (or Santa Claus if you're American)? What happened to that belief? Did you let it go?

Why do you think letting go of beliefs is silly? Do you think it's impossible or what?

Quote from: astralm

Tom Campbell himself says if there is a scale of 0-1 and 0 is for sure something is false and 1 is something is true, nothing can ever be 0 or 1, which means basically however you view the world is your belief because you never can be 100% sure you are right.

Is he talking only about subjective matters? If so, I'd go along with him. If he's talking about everything, then I'd have to disagree with him.

For instance, there is a squirrel in my garden as I type this. That's a 1.

Quote from: astralm

You can be open-minded to your experiences as supporting or opposing your belief, but the idea that you can somehow remove belief is just not logically possible to me. Instead of trying to replace beliefs with "knowns", what you should do is recognize belief for what it is and be open to the fact your beliefs may be incorrect and need to be replaced with another belief that better fits your experiences. But be aware you aren't replacing it with absolute truth or "knowledge" just a better belief for where you are at that itself probably will need to be replaced with another belief. Simply accept belief for what it is.

Again, are you only talking about subjective personal matters such as projections/dreams etc.? In which case, I'll raise your 'should do' and advise that we drop ALL beliefs. Why swap one belief for another when you can get rid of them all?

As in many other cases, the need for willpower is widely stated, but misunderstood and misapplied, hence not fully effective. People embrace slogans like "1% inspiration, 99% perspiration", "no pain, no gain", "just do it", etc., all concentrating on doing, on action, while success is actually brought primarily by thoughts, beliefs, and focus.

In astral projection your will is very important, but not in the sense of willpower, but in the sense of wanting it, not fearing it, while moving your focus away from physical (including your body), and opening a pathway to your subconscious.

You stating that if you look outside and see a squirrel in the garden that the squirrel being there is a 1. But how can you prove this? Is it not possible that you could be hallucinating the squirrel. Well maybe then you ask someone else and they say yeah I see the squirrel, how do you know you are not hallucinating them as well. Every theory and every law is based on an assumption. The less assumptions and more solid your assumptions appear, the better the theory. But everything starts with a belief that cannot be proved, it must be assumed. Even the most basic things such as that we exist cannot actually be proven, and have been tackled and questioned by many philosphers over the years.

Sorry if this is not making any sense, it is not the easiest thing to explain. Basically it boils down to people thinking things are 1, like a squirrel you see in your backyard being real when really it isn't a 1 it is a .9999999999, we just don't like to admit to the fact that the world has uncertainty and so we ignore it. Everything starts with belief, It makes sense I exist and so I believe I exist even though I can't actually prove I do and from there I can explain things as facts, but really the facts are always based on some sort of assumption.

About your first point on letting go of belief such as Santa Claus being real. Yes I let go of beliefs, but they are replaced by other beliefs. You aren't eliminating belief in your life, you simply are replacing something you no longer believe is true with something you either believe is true or believe might be true.

You stating that if you look outside and see a squirrel in the garden that the squirrel being there is a 1. But how can you prove this? Is it not possible that you could be hallucinating the squirrel. Well maybe then you ask someone else and they say yeah I see the squirrel, how do you know you are not hallucinating them as well. Every theory and every law is based on an assumption. The less assumptions and more solid your assumptions appear, the better the theory. But everything starts with a belief that cannot be proved, it must be assumed. Even the most basic things such as that we exist cannot actually be proven, and have been tackled and questioned by many philosphers over the years.

Sorry if this is not making any sense, it is not the easiest thing to explain. Basically it boils down to people thinking things are 1, like a squirrel you see in your backyard being real when really it isn't a 1 it is a .9999999999, we just don't like to admit to the fact that the world has uncertainty and so we ignore it. Everything starts with belief, It makes sense I exist and so I believe I exist even though I can't actually prove I do and from there I can explain things as facts, but really the facts are always based on some sort of assumption.

About your first point on letting go of belief such as Santa Claus being real. Yes I let go of beliefs, but they are replaced by other beliefs. You aren't eliminating belief in your life, you simply are replacing something you no longer believe is true with something you either believe is true or believe might be true.

May I ask: what's your point?

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---“Read not to contradict and confute, nor to believe and take for granted, but to weigh and consider.”- Sir Francis Bacon

You stating that if you look outside and see a squirrel in the garden that the squirrel being there is a 1. But how can you prove this? Is it not possible that you could be hallucinating the squirrel. Well maybe then you ask someone else and they say yeah I see the squirrel, how do you know you are not hallucinating them as well.

I wondered if this was going to be your angle. Maybe we are all brains in jars in a mad scientist's laboratory. Maybe we are thought-characters of just one giant brain in a jar. Or maybe we live inside the eye of a blue-eyed giant called Macumber.

Given your reasoning, no-one can know anything. Which is fine as a philosophical debate, as a clever bit of wordplay, as a way to pass the time on an internet forum...but it doesn't really get us anywhere, does it? Which perhaps is why baro-san asked what your point is.

We (meaning humans) communicate. We discuss. We describe. We explain. And so on. We use language as a way of expression. When I tell you there is a squirrel in my garden, I'm not ignoring the idea that I might be a brain in a jar or a speck of a speck of a speck in a giant's eye...I'm deliberately dismissing those ideas as they are not helpful to the conversation/discussion.

Quote from: astralm

About your first point on letting go of belief such as Santa Claus being real. Yes I let go of beliefs, but they are replaced by other beliefs.

What did you replace your belief of Santa Claus with?

Ultimately, everything is a theory...but we use language such as I know there is a squirrel in my garden in a way that other people understand the meaning. They would conclude that I can see the squirrel. If I say I suspect there is a squirrel in my garden (without clarifying that I might be hallucinating the squirrel) this would have a completely different meaning. The reader/listener would conclude that I couldn't see the squirrel, and maybe I was hearing a scurrying sound which led me to believe it might be a squirrel.

It's fun to break language down and dispute everything anyone writes - I've seen it done with aplomb on other forums...but ultimately it really is quite a pointless exercise when it comes to actual living and direct experience.

People's stance that they have left belief behind and now "know" the way it is has been the basis for most if not all wars and genocide. I don't see it as a pointless philosophy debate with no real world application at all. What you believe defines how you interact with the world. Nothing is less pointless.