correction.....admin delete the above one......i mean is the first time i have ever heard of that........i am not even sure that the granthis are aware of this....

"namaz style" most of us dont even know wot thats like

Re: reading paath in 'namaz' style

Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)

Date: July 19, 2008 11:13PM

Gurfateh

Ap Apuni budh Hai Jeti Barnat Bhin Bhin Tuhi Teti.

Das wants to know that does Kafi(a from of music) exists in our faith a and then stlye Khyal used by sufis was developed by Tenth Master only.

So das finds no hystriya to Islam and if we have something common then it should be encouraged up to the level that it does overshoots our Rahit.

Re: reading paath in 'namaz' style

Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)

Date: July 20, 2008 05:08AM

hi

i see/hear it both on tv broadcast from Harimandir and in Guruduaras I go to.

im surprised you dont know the namaaz style. you can see it on any muslim channels. they shout their prayer and elongate and stress certain syllables, especially at the end. e.g.: "Allaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah". that kind of lingering. there are also lingering sileneces. havent you ever heard it? im not saying anything bad about that, not at all. but what i dont like is granthis imitating it.

vijaydeep as usual i find it diifcult to know what you are talking about because of yoru writting style. i dont mean to be rude by saying that.

Kaafee - this form is stated where it is to be used with Gurbani. what is your point here? are you saying this kaafee has something to do with this namaaz style i am talking about?

correct me if i am wrong but Khyal (improvising) is not appropriate to Gurbani. It is okay for ones own Naama kirtan- personal singing Gods naams or gunas /qualities- but we must not mess with Guru's words and word order or alter them in performance. This is how i see it.

I dont know what khyal has to do with Guru Gobind Singh. Maybe you can enlighten me.

back to the Naamaz style, Im thinking maybe the granthis use it as a 'stalliing' technique to cover up their difficulty in reading lareedar akhara(n). i.e. they elongate a vowel whilst they try and figure out the next part to be spoken. Im not saying that to insult them or put them down.

Bani is composed in different raagas in Guru Granth Sahib ji. So when Granthi Singh or Paathi singh tries to emphasise on particular word it doesn't alter the word at all neither does it change it's meaning rather I would say , Paathi singh tries to be more rhytmic while reciting the gurubani.

When reading Salok Mahalla - 9 , as usual is the practice all the five paathi singh some together and reads bani in chorus and in rhytmic manner , would you say it they should not do it in this manner it depicts the Sanskri saloks being read by various Pandits in chorus.

So , there is no particular style of reading gurbani. You can recite the Gurbani in any manner as long as it does not change the meaning and context of the Gurbani.

Sikhi rvaaj have many similarities to semetic and snaatan faiths. Use of Raag, Shastar vidya, theological concepts i.e. one God, chaurasi lakh joon, jhatka, wearing turban, daily recital of set prayers, highest punishemtn for adultery, artistic caligraphy etc so you shouldn't be worried about similarities, rather celebrate them. The poetic style of reciting Hukumnamai etc exists in nearly all sampradas - so has a traditional backing - even if this was influenced by Mullahs call in teh old days, so what? Sikhi celebrates that which is beautiful - it doesn't aim to reinvent the wheel in every aspect of life.

Khayal style of kirtan was invented by Dashmesh Pita - the first recorded instance of this kirtan instruction being in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. So in fact, it is appropriate to Gurbani, although Sri Guru Granth Sahib was traditionally sung in Dhrupada.

Re: reading paath in 'namaz' style

Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)

Date: July 21, 2008 06:05AM

ssa

Karimul what are you refering to- elongating vowels or khyal singing?

i do think this kind of 'decoration' is appropriate. Gurbani is not a performance
art. we want to hear it with clarity not decoration. it is distracting. if reading paath becomes like a performance then the performer becames important and it becomes an egotistical act/display. i do not see any benefit from the reader singing a long 'eeee' sound. Why dont they just learn and use the Given Raaga?

but the main point is imitating others is foolish, and we will cause deviation from original understanding this way. it is because of this imitation that we have already lost so much knowledge.

I have not such a recital of Sloaks M:9 so I wouldnt comment. When you say rhythmic I wonder what you mean, Gurbani paath the rhythm is inherent. You just read and stop at the dhandhis (||) and the rhythm emerges itself.

Also word emphasis is inherent. Look at this Japu sloak:

Cẖupai cẖup na hova­ī jė lā­ė rahā liv ṯār||

Why then would or should the Granthi elongate any vowels here? Well i suppose if people find it helps them concentrate it is not bad.

no i cant agree that "You can recite the Gurbani in any manner as long as it does not change the meaning and context of the Gurbani." Without raaga already the meaning is missing something. Tradition is important here to stop people doing stupid things.

already we had nonesense of 'filmy-tunes' being used for Gurbani recordings.

A few years ago, someone told me whilst visitng a Gurdwara in his pind he heard a bajurg reciting Baarha Maahaa (paath) in raag Maajh (he had good raag vidya).

He said the emotion was unbelievable and the sangat was magnetised, many were in tears such was the execution of the bhaav.

When he asked teh Bajurg Baba where he learnt to do paath like that from, Baba Ji replied, son, this is how my father taught me, and his father before him taught him...

The mind wanders as to how many beautiful traditions have been lost in the Panth already... whilst those that survive i.e. nirdhaareth raag kirtan and Tanti Saaz are ignored by majority of of those who do kirtan.

Re: reading paath in 'namaz' style

Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)

Date: July 22, 2008 05:15PM

Harcharan SSA,

im not worried about SIMILARITIES. Im worried about IMITATION. You use the word 'rvaaj' (fashion). People just doing things on a whim for superificial aesthetic reasons, regardless of tradition or essence. Im sorry but I can not be so blaise about Guru Granth. Evrything is written there- what is a sloak and what is in Raag and what is the relevant Raag. And yet still people are off doing something else. Why? i do not understand this 'do as you please' philosophy with regards to Guru Granth at all! one person tell me they agree with me at least!

the fashion these days is anti-hindu pro-islamicist. so lets start bringing in pseudo-muslim or 'sufi'(whatever that means these days) rvaaj. just for entertainment...

if people want to do these fancifal things with their own creative work/poetry they can go ahead and enjoy the fame thereof. Leave Gurbani out of it please.

woah hang on- khyala style was invented by Guru Gobind Singh? I hear some far-out things on this site and Im not sure what to make of them. No offence but are you sure? People also say he invented the dil ruba. I hate if these were just lies I would really feel cheated. dont you think maybe this would be a well known fact is this was the case? or at least people would awknowledge that teh style came from panjab? but i have never heard such a thing.

'first recorded instance' is NOT the same as invented. but lets just get things straight here (and i admit my knowledge here is threadbare):

when we say khyal/khyala we are talking about singing style that permits the performer to improvise but putting in words and phrases and refranes etc as they please at the moment. (similar to impression given at [en.wikipedia.org])

more gems from wikipedia about drupad:

"The 18th Century saw the beginning of a great decline of dhrupad singing. A new genre, khyal, gained popularity at dhrupad's expense. It placed fewer constraints on the singers and allowed for displays of virtuosity that were rare in dhrupad. In addition, the basically Hindu dhrupad was somewhat out of context in a Muslim setting; here, khyal offered something less devotional and more entertaining. Also, new instruments were being developed – the sitar and the sarod – that were not suited to the slow tempo and low register favoured by dhrupad, so that dhrupad instrumental also began to lose ground."

"As a consequence, in the first half of the 20th Century khyal was all-pervasive, along with the new instrumental style of classical music, and dhrupad was becoming all but extinct. Only a few families carried on the tradition."

lets be very very careful here.

also i wouldnt invest too much dependance on these musical histories as they were heavily infered in retrospect acoording to modern indian music populism. they dont go on much evidence. they may overlook alot. infact they are so ridiculously mogul-inclined and ignorant of vast india thast its laughable. i mean apparantly amir kusrao or whatever his name was invented everything included the ragas. does anyone really buy this nonesense?

now i googled up to try and understand what you are referring to and I assume it is this mention of khyal in 'sabad hazare'.

one mention of this style, if that is what it is, does not mean that it extends to be okay for singing from Guru Granth. Dasam Granth is not the same as
Guru Granth, Evryone agrees on that much at least.

“im not worried about SIMILARITIES. Im worried about IMITATION. You use the word 'rvaaj' (fashion). People just doing things on a whim for superificial aesthetic reasons, regardless of tradition or essence. Im sorry but I can not be so blaise about Guru Granth. Evrything is written there- what is a sloak and what is in Raag and what is the relevant Raag. And yet still people are off doing something else. Why? i do not understand this 'do as you please' philosophy with regards to Guru Granth at all! one person tell me they agree with me at least!”

The instructions you are referring to relate to kirtan, not paat. If the majority of the Panth, all sampradas/jathaas have this tradition of recital, your unresearched accusations has no spine.

“the fashion these days is anti-hindu pro-islamicist. so lets start bringing in pseudo-muslim or 'sufi'(whatever that means these days) rvaaj. just for entertainment...”

Already exists, tumri was invented in Mughal dancing courts and is now popular in Gurdwarai across the world (personally I find this sickening). Many kirtani also do qwaal style kirtan.

But more to the point – raag suhi was a favourite of and mainly used by Sufi’s – there is an obvious Sufi connection with the type of poetry in Gurbani in Suhi and Sufi theology.

“woah hang on- khyala style was invented by Guru Gobind Singh? I hear some far-out things on this site and Im not sure what to make of them. No offence but are you sure? People also say he invented the dil ruba. I hate if these were just lies I would really feel cheated. dont you think maybe this would be a well known fact is this was the case? or at least people would awknowledge that teh style came from panjab? but i have never heard such a thing.
'first recorded instance' is NOT the same as invented. but lets just get things straight here (and i admit my knowledge here is threadbare):
when we say khyal/khyala we are talking about singing style that permits the performer to improvise but putting in words and phrases and refranes etc as they please at the moment. (similar to impression given at [en.wikipedia.org]) “

For you to have to use and rely on one persons biased Wikipedia entry says a lot about your lack of knowledge and research skills on this whole subject. For your info earliest written account counts as the strongest evidence in historical terms – Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a master musicologist. They have used over 500 raags in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib and Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji combined – and again, 18/19th C historians point to the invention of the Taus to 10th Master, the Dilruba is an offshoot of the Taus.

"The 18th Century saw the beginning of a great decline of dhrupad singing. A new genre, khyal, gained popularity at dhrupad's expense. It placed fewer constraints on the singers and allowed for displays of virtuosity that were rare in dhrupad. In addition, the basically Hindu dhrupad was somewhat out of context in a Muslim setting; here, khyal offered something less devotional and more entertaining. Also, new instruments were being developed – the sitar and the sarod – that were not suited to the slow tempo and low register favoured by dhrupad, so that dhrupad instrumental also began to lose ground."

Thanks, the dates provided above fit perfectly with 10th Masters invention theory. Until written historical evidence can be found to prove otherwise, invention of Khayal goes to 10th Master by default – 18th Sri Dasam Granths being earliest recorded evidence of khayal.

“also i wouldnt invest too much dependance on these musical histories as they were heavily infered in retrospect acoording to modern indian music populism. they dont go on much evidence. they may overlook alot. infact they are so ridiculously mogul-inclined and ignorant of vast india thast its laughable. i mean apparantly amir kusrao or whatever his name was invented everything included the ragas. does anyone really buy this nonesense?”

Quit your Islamaphobia, you should be greatful to Muslims for preserving classical Indian Music – you only have to have one iota of knowledge to know how much of a large part Muslims play in preserving many gharanai in India and their dominance in percussion and stringed instruments as well as various singing styles – re Drupad, give thanks to the MUSLIM Daggar brothers for it’s survival!

Also don't forget the unbroken Rababi traditon of NanakShahi Muslims who performed kirtan at Darbar Sahib (hazuri raagis) until SGPC came into power.

“one mention of this style, if that is what it is, does not mean that it extends to be okay for singing from Guru Granth. Dasam Granth is not the same as
Guru Granth, Evryone agrees on that much at least”

I never said Khayal was appropriate to Sri Guru Granth Sahib, I already stated Dhrupad was the traditional form of execution – as per Bhai Avtar Singhs parampara tradition.

Re: reading paath in 'namaz' style

Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)

Date: July 24, 2008 11:38PM

Gurfateh
Vaar 1 Pauri 35 Going to Baghdad

ਫਿਰਿ ਬਾਬਾ ਗਇਆ ਬਗਦਾਦਿ ਨੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਜਾਇ ਕੀਆ ਅਸਥਾਨਾ ।

dhiri baabaa gaiaa bagadaadi no baahari jaai keeaa asadaanaa|

From Mecca Baba went to Baghdad and stayed outside the city.

Line 1

ਇਕੁ ਬਾਬਾ ਅਕਾਲ ਰੁਪੂ ਦੂਜਾ ਰਬਾਬੀ ਮਰਦਾਨਾ ।

iku baabaa akaal rupoo doojaa rabaabee maradaanaa|

Firstly, Baba himself was in the form of Timeless and secondly, he had his companion Mardana, the rebeck player.

Line 2

ਦਿਤੀ ਬਾਂਗਿ ਨਿਵਾਜਿ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਨਿ ਹੋਆ ਜਹਾਨਾ ।

ditee baangi nivaaji kari sunni samaani hoaa jahaanaa|

For namaz (in his own style), Baba gave call, listening to which the whole world went into absolute silence.

Line 3

ਸੁੰਨ ਮੁੰਨਿ ਨਗਰੀ ਭਈ ਦੇਖਿ ਪੀਰ ਭਇਆ ਹੈਰਾਨਾ ।

sunn munni nagaree bhaee daykhi peer bhaiaa hairaanaa|

The whole city became quiet and lo! to behold it, the pir (of the town) also got wonderstruck.

Line 4

ਵੇਖੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਲਗਾਇ ਕਰਿ ਇਕੁ ਫਕੀਰੁ ਵਡਾ ਮਸਤਾਨਾ ।

vaykhai dhiaanu|agaai kari iku dhakeeru vadaa masataanaa|

Observing minutely he found (in the form of Baba Nanak) an exhilerated faquir.

Line 5

ਪੁਛਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਕੈ ਦਸਤਗੀਰ ਕਉਣ ਫਕੀਰੁ ਕਿਸਕਾ ਘਰਿਆਨਾ

puchhiaa dhiri kai dasatageer kaun dhakeeru kisakaa ghariaanaa

Pir Dastegir asked him, which category of faquir you belong to and what is your parentage.

Line 6

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਇਆ ਰਬੁ ਫਕੀਰੁ ਇਕੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ।

naanak kali vichi aaiaa rabu dhakeeru iko pahichaanaa|

(Mardana told) He is Nanak, who has come into kaliyug, and, he recognises God and His faquirs as one.

Very good Vijaydeep Singh - but I doubt that even the unquestionable words of Bhai Gurdas Ji will put Navjots sceptical and non-egalitarian mind to rest.

I love that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was so great and beyond tribal/patriotic bounderies that they could perform aarti Jagannaath Puri in and Namaaz in Baghdad - in my opinion this was to show the correct form of worship in the visited peoples own marg.