Weston,
My apologies if you have a lab, and I do not doubt your word since you can
"run down stairs and see that it exists". You might check though, it's been
a couple of weeks since you've been down there. This means you aren't a
member of that same lab, so how can your input be valid about what tests are
performed or not performed in that lab.
Why is it that you are the one sounding off instead of the lab manager?
Isn't that Tony? It sure sounded like Tony (that Michael N. referred us to)
was the person in authority. Someone who could give us correct, real data
on what Mentor had to offer, and posted the URL in his e-mail. My confusion,
and perhaps you can explain it away, is your requirement that the user
supply the lab data .OR. (that's C for logical OR)the spice file. From your
web site ... again:
"ICX Project Modeling
"From the parts list supplied to us at the time of order we provide
qualityIBIS models from our Standard Library matching the exact devices you
are using or **create models from devices or a SPICE source you supply.**"
It's **starred** for you now. Do you see how that would be
misleading/confusing?

You wouldn't need either if you had a lab to test the parts now would you?

If you do have a lab, then you and the people that manage your web site need
to get coordinated because Mentor has created the perception that this is
not the case. Also, why are you showing up so late in the game? Don't your
own personnel know you have a lab? Are you the only one that's figured this
out? Why wasn't this clarification put forth sooner, mentioned by one of
your other representatives, like Scott McMorrow, who joined in the
discussion prior to you? You have too many loose ends, too little
information coordination, and too, too, too much buttcovering BS. In case
no one has clued you in, Scott had things on a level keel until you popped
in. You're not a design engineer, are you? You sure don't talk like one.
If you're not, you're pounding a company drum and your input is already
suspect. This is an engineering data exchange group, not a sales/marketing
forum, and I for one am tired of this "discussion" since it has degenerated
into nothing of technical interest. You represent your company well.

You have now stated twice that Mentor does not have a lab to measure parts
in order to create IBIS files. How do you figure that? I was in that lab
just a couple of weeks ago. If you want me to, I could run downstairs to
verify that it's still there with people working in it. Mentor Graphics has
a lab to measure the characteristic of actual ICs to create IBIS files and
we also have a dedicated group to make IBIS files from SPICE models. The
other important ingredient, as Scott McMorrow pointed out, is the expertise
to use (or create) software tools to create and verify quality IBIS models.
Just because someone can get s2ibis2 to run doesn't mean they have a good
IBIS file. Check the web and you'll see what I mean. You can also get a
free Java compiler on the web. That doesn't make us all programmers.

Scott,
"If you have a problem with a particular vendor's approach, then by all
means boycott that vendor and do it yourself. But when you "do it yourself"
please remember to figure out what the true fully burdened cost of your
engineering work truly is. You will find that you actually spend much more
in real accounting dollars than you would have spent with an outside
source, and in many cases your result will not be as good as theirs. They
have the time to develop a "quality" process."

Just a clarification.
We are all unfortunately familiar with an "IBIS ain't an IBIS" sometimes; it
is frequently discussed right here. The problem for the majority of us is
that the trail ends at not being able to get the files, any files. Then we
are stuck with generic driver simulation, which is better than nothing, but
not much. Installing a hardware lab to perform IBIS compliant testing is
cost prohibitive for the majority, and I agree, would soak up the
engineering time. Mentor doesn't have a hardware lab either. We need
someone that has a lab .AND. a dedicated "software" group, integrated and
focused to produce truly compliant spice/ibis files in a pre-release mode.
Pre-release. Bold that last sentence, stressing pre-release, and forward it
upstream to as senior a marketing person as you can. Title it "Marketing
Direction Imperative". Partner with an outside lab or grow your own. I
really should be charging you guys.
Another alternative in lieu of a lab, but it would be better if you had
both, is to have a group, a subset of what Mentor has now, dedicated to
obtaining this information from the vendor (we know about MAP, right idea,
just not enough). Lobby the suckers, be forceful, be the voice of the
consumer base. Sleeping giants are hard to wake up. Our need for
pre-release files is growing constantly ( or exponentially it seems). Once
you have the files, it is trivial to produce the final product even
factoring in burdened engineering dollars. Mentor, Cadence, Innoveda, et
al, the one-stop shopping giants of this industry, should shift focus. The
problem is getting the information from the vendors, not processing it. The
thing inside the box is the data, the gift wrapping is the spice/ibis file.

I concur that economies of scale exist when a group focuses on a single
product versus "do it yourself". Mom & Pop shops can't compete in
quantity/cost, and sometimes even in quality, depending on how the large
operation is run. My intent here was not to slay another dragon, but to let
you know that the market direction is incorrect. It is not supplying what
the customer base needs. There's money to be made here because the demand
will only increase with time. The company that delivers the right product
at the right price will take the lion's share of the market. And don't
forget to unbundle it from you product line so you don't look like a shmuck.

If the process of creating a high quality IBIS model from the vendor's
HSPICE deck and s2ibis were all that were necessary, then
Ken's statements would be quite true. Unfortunately, this is not the
case for many instances.

There are several vendors out here who perform the service of IBIS
model generation and correlation. For some the cost is in bundling the
service with a particular tool. For others, like ourselves, it is charging
the
true engineering cost of creating and validating these models.

The IBIS specification is free to all who would choose to use it. But
anyone
who has participated in the specification compliance process knows that
it is one thing to say than one complies with a specification, and quite
another
to actually comply.

If you have a problem with a particular vendor's approach, then by all
means boycott that vendor and do it yourself. But when you "do it yourself"
please remember to figure out what the true fully burdened cost of your
engineering work truly is. You will find that you actually spend much more
in real accounting dollars than you would have spent with an outside
source, and in many cases your result will not be as good as theirs. They
have the time to develop a "quality" process.

> Tony & all,
> This is a long one (all), but well worth the wait. Please read to the
end.
>
> You'll have to forgive my "forceful posting", it's a 60's thing. If there
> were another avenue I would certainly use it. It is a serious problem,
and
> the only way you can get some movement, after other means have failed, is
to
> be forceful. Sometimes a wilderness adventure does the trick.
>
> I vectored to your site via your link and looked at MAP and qualityIBIS.
> Data referenced was cut and pasted from you own site.
>
> qualityIBIS:
> "Visual inspection for completeness and reality
> Model checking using ibis_chk
> Graphical inspection using s2iplt or winibis
> Simulation using ICX "
>
> *s2iplt is available at eda.org for free. Perl is required to run the
> application. It is free. WinIBIS is posted on the IBIS home page and is
> supplied by HyperLynx, for free. Everything here except simulation with
ICX
> is public domain. Anyone can sim the file with the sim pack of THEIR
> choice.
>
> ICX Standard Library
> 11,000 models
> Licensed per site
> Low cost and regular updates.
> Updated every six months.
> New models added with each update.
> *Doesn't Cadence do the same thing (same amount of files), just bundled
with
> the product?
>
> ICX Project Modeling
> "From the parts list supplied to us at the time of order we provide
> qualityIBIS models from our Standard Library matching the exact devices
you
> are using or create models from devices or a SPICE source you supply."
> *Why don't you throw in the Standard Library along with the Custom models,
> it's cheap.
> *Created from devices. Your group doesn't create the files from devices,
> the user has to supply the information themselves from their lab data. If
I
> had a lab set up to measure and collect all of the data required for IBIS
> compliant testing, I would certainly have the capability to create the
IBIS
> file. Second case, user supplied SPICE file. If I have the SPICE file, I
> can convert it myself with free spice2ibis converters in a selection of
> OS's. At: http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/tools.htm.
>
> The marketing plan and goal for the project can be found at:
> http://www.mentor.com/icx/icx_models/alliance.html. It's a good concept
and
> it's nice that Mentor has taken the first step. A small incremental cost
for
> the convenience of having all of the IBIS files in one place is worth
> paying, especially for people who don't know where all this stuff is
> located, and really don't care. They just want the files. What I object
to
> is your tying the service to exclusive use of Mentor product (sold at
> reduced rates as per the above url). It's kind of like the
> Microsoft/Netscape thing, you know? Bob Ross, from Mentor, IBIS Open
Forum
> Librarian, vectors anyone, for free, to all available IBIS sites, indexed
by
> vendor. Excellent work Bob. Many thanks on many occasions. Done in the
> true spirit of the IBIS group. This is at /ibis/model.htm instead of
> /ibis/tools.htm.
>
> So far you aren't capable of providing any service that we can't provide
for
> ourselves given access to the same information, the lab data or the Spice
> files.
>
> MAP:
> Below is the member list of the alliance. You will note, Tony, Toshiba
> isn't on there. Remember, this was all about not being able to get a
> Toshiba part? Excerpt from your e-mail:
>
> Anyone who finds themselves in Christoph's situation where a silicon
vendor
> cannot, for whatever reason, provide IBIS models directly may want to
> suggest to them (or encourage them) to look into the MAP.
>
> *Why should we vector them to Mentor? You are trying to lock us into an
> exclusive contract. I prefer free choice, free speech and free thought,
> thank you very much.
>
> In conclusion, I think Mentor needs to rethink it's marketing strategy for
> the group. It would be whiz-bang if you had an on-site lab that performed
> the IBIS testing, and pulled it into both spice and ibis formats. Now
that
> would be worth buying, and you would be providing a service that is very
> much needed, and in line with the Open Forum intent. I would also suggest
> that you change the "buy the Mentor product or no deal" mode that you have
> now, and let your mainline product stand on it's own merits. I hear it's
> pretty good, but I don't like to be forced into doing anything. The
> projected marketing pull-through won't happen if you are perceived as
> monopolistic.
> I will be reviewing your product in Q1. I have the Tau and Interconnectix
> disks, and will request a license file upgrade soon (ran out of time on
the
> first one, too busy to even open the disks). Maintaining the intent that
> Bob Ross and the other founders of the forum had, as an aid to Signal
> Integrity, is more important than your current marketing direction. Or
to
> put it another way, what would you think if HyperLynx started charging you
> to use WinIBIS? You are not providing a true value add at this point, you
> are simply shuffling paper.
>
> Tellin' it like it is,
>
> Ken
>
> Post script: (All) Todd Westerhoff (uses SpectaQuest as I remember) sent
an
> e-mail stating that Toshiba supplied him with HSpice and IBIS for one
their
> products, but makes no claims to broad product line support.
> *******
> *Member list of MAP*
>
> Membership
>
> Actel Corporation
>
> Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
>
> Agilent Technologies Inc.
>
> Cypress Semiconductor Inc.
>
> Dallas Semiconductor
>
> Data Device Corporation
>
> Micron Technology
>
> Mitel Corporation
>
> National Semiconductor
>
> Pericom
>
> Sharp
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> [mailto:owner-si-list@silab.eng.sun.com]On Behalf Of Dunbar, Tony
> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 11:05 AM
> To: 'si-list@silab.eng.sun.com'
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models
>
> Hi all,
>
> Michael Nudelman is quite correct, of course. Our modeling group probably
> could do these IBIS models either from measurement or Spice. Yes, there is
a
> fixed-price fee and it probably equates to about the cost to your
company's
> overheads for you spending about 3 hours trying to figure out how you're
> going to get an IBIS model for these parts or fix-up what you have!
>
> I have also read Ken Cantrell's forceful posting on this issue, too. There
> is another possible approach here which does not involve banishing any
> vendor out into wilderness:
>
> Part of Mentor's IBIS modeling strategy and solutions is the Model
Alliance
> Program. I have included a URL below where more introductory information
can
> be found but, essentially, MAP is based on a partnership between Mentor's
> IBIS modeling group and silicon vendors whereby Mentor's modeling group do
> the IBIS modeling directly for the silicon vendor. The models are then
> provided back to the silicon vendor for him to distribute as he wishes;
e.g.
> posting them on their web-site for all to download.
>
> Anyone who finds themselves in Christoph's situation where a silicon
vendor
> cannot, for whatever reason, provide IBIS models directly may want to
> suggest to them (or encourage them) to look into the MAP.
>
> Here's the URL: http://www.mentor.com/icx/icx_models/index.html
>
> Anyone with specific interests or questions, including silicon vendors,
> please contact me directly off-line from the SI-LIST.
>
> Regards,
> Tony Dunbar
> Mentor Graphics/ICX
> Dallas, TX
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Nudelman [mailto:mnudelman@tellium.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 8:06 AM
> To: Christoph Hillen
> Cc: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models
>
> I never tried it,
>
> But Mentor has division that will take your part and create IBIS model of
> it.
> Probably, for a fee.
>
> Christoph Hillen wrote:
>
> > hi all,
> >
> > I'm searching for IBIS models of the Toshiba devices
> >
> > TH58V128FT
> > TC58128FT
> > TC55V4000ST-70
> >
> > It seems that the company itself does not provide models, and they are
> obviously
> > not able to answer any questions regarding models.
> > Does anyone of you know a source for these?
> >
> > Thanks a lot
> >
> > Christoph Hillen
> > Utimaco Safeware AG
> > Germany
> >
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