I would suspect that a lot of people feel passionately about this subject because they feel that while children are defenseless, that adults should probably know better than to be hitting children and babies...
***
I know it seems like people are ganging up on you, but seriously, hitting is wrong. There is no if, ands, or buts about it. Plain and simple, hitting is wrong, there is no debate.
***
Just as if you claim to be a Christian, you will admit murder is wrong. Even if you kill someone in self defense, obviously, I think God takes some considerations that you were preserving your life and all, but at the end of the day, murder is murder....there can't be a changed definition just to suit someone else's justification.
***
So either hitting someone is right or wrong, you have to know where you stand on that, because it seriously is a black and white issue. The only exeption, MAYBE, being self defense, but as I said, hitting someone, even in self defense, is a violent act, though justified.
***
So if you agree that hitting is wrong, why would you consider doing it to a child?
***
That is where we come back to the old "what is wrong with a tap on the butt??"...well like I said, that defies logic when you think about it because if your child will respond and behave with just a "tap" on the butt, SURELY they will respond just as well, if not better, with alternative methods.

I would expect people feel passionaltely about it for any number of reasons, and I respect that. Who better to talk to about it, huh?
***
Ganging up on me has nothing to do with anything. I was fully aware, coming in here, that I would be on my own. I can handle it. As for you telling me it's wrong, great. But like I said before, I don't take any one person's word for ANYthing. That's why I am here, why can't you understand that? If I did, I would be doing things EXACTLY like my dad did, instead of spending the better part of a week of my life in front of my computer talking to you and others here.
***
I told you why I considered doing it to a child... go back and re-read some posts. I am considering NOT doing it to a child.
***
I'm sorry, who said that? Besides, plenty here have given lots of good examples to back up the fact that other methods are effective. And I acknowledged that, didn't I?

I really think you should check out the reading list at the top of the forum if you are interested in learning more, there are some great books out there on the subject.

I definitely will. At the moment though, I have no time for anything but replying to this thread... my husband would probably like me to make good on my promise to pick up the house a bit... one of these days.

Children aren't the only people who need a gentle response. But maybe it isn't your calling to have good conversation with the end result being understanding. Thank you for making your position clear. I won't waste either of our time anymore by responding to you. There are plenty of people here who can talk to adults, like adults.

YOur priorities are really screwed up if dc is horrifying but physical abuse is not. YOu are comfortable calling dc damaging, but not hitting? Reality check anyone?
.

This manner of speaking just doesn't seem to be consistent with GD to me. Kateana has stated over and over that this is her background. Her mother abandoned her but her father, who STAYED, used spanking. It is all she knows. She has stated over and over that she is willing to learn and has even already agreed with many points made so far. As stated before, GD involves TEACHING and GUIDANCE. What better spot to show just how effective GD can be than with someone who has come here open to both teaching and guidance?

It sounds like you have seen lots of cases of inconsistent and ineffective parenting that have nothing to do with spanking or not spanking.
***
That is a logical consequence...behave in a way that bothers others in a restaurant, you cannot stay in the restaurant.
***
This is what I consider effective parenting. Sometimes you have to do things that are inconvenient and hard.
***
So the "not spanking in anger" would be a lie, no?
***
Not to mention, fairly ineffective. Maybe to him the spanking a half hour later would be a small enough price to pay for acting up for an hour and getting all that attention.
***
As far as the teens on Ricki Lake, you do know that it is hyped up and not real, right?
***
When your prime method of discipline is not working because your child is too big......then what?

Michelle

You are so right
***
Totally.
***
It sounds like it is. And more peaceful than spanking.
***
In that situation, absolutely. Personally, I don't get angry at much of anything, and I have a ton more patience with kids than a lot of people I know. So that probably wouldn't even irk me... But I definitely see how it would to some people, I'm not trying to be argumentative.
***
Definitely. But then it would never be a good idea to wait to discipline. But that's me.
***
RL and the such are definitely staged... and the shows I was referring to had, literally, 5 and 6 yr olds... little kids. Besides, even if that show was not based on real events whatsoever, I don't doubt that it represented some real families.
***
I always thought that spanking was appropriately used while kids were too young to understand or benefit from other methods.

The children who've been treated respectfully know they deserve respect, know to stay away from people who won't give them the same respect they have enjoyed their whole lives, and don't need to go off the deep end. They get in trouble, sure, but IME for far less than those whose parents spanked or otherwise kept too tight a leash when they were young.
***
Since not everyone here believes in the Christians' god at all, let alone various particular interpretations of Jesus, it is difficult to keep a gentle discipline discussion on topic if the subject keeps getting turned to whether or not some diety loves one.

In general, I've noticed that, too. I went to a christian HS (seen SAVED anyone?...my school to a T) where that was the rule...
***
Since the topic is TTUAC, which is based on the authors' interpretation of the Bible, the Christian God, and Jesus would be completely on topic... IMHO.

I can't believe that spanking children is still being excused.
***
I can quote the post for you where you clearly state that you find reptition frustration.
***
Guess what? It's called parenting. Spanking is simply what people resort to when they are too lazy to parent. There is nothing loving about it. Defend your parents all you want. It's still wrong.
***
YOur priorities are really screwed up if dc is horrifying but physical abuse is not. YOu are comfortable calling dc damaging, but not hitting? Reality check anyone?
***
BTW, the phenomenon of the stay at home mom was not a reality prior to the fifties. it was a reality for a small segment of the population post WWII through to the 60's. Women have worked from the beginning of time, in the fields, etc, with children being worn while momma worked, or the extended family/community providing child care. One can still see evidence of this in indigenious cultures.

Is it?
***
Oh, I remember it clearly, and I'm tempted to repeat it here. If you don't understand the point of that post, or the ones to follow, please rephrase your question b/c I don't know where the confusion lies.
***
Did you read the post that explained why I had said something about loving and spanking having anything to do with each other? Maybe I wrote it after you wrote this... if not, please read it, and try to understand it. Also notice that I used the past tense where it was appropriate. I will defend my parents all I want, and you are free to attack them all you want. But please do not ignore the fact that I am here to learn how to do things differently.
***
Oh, but my reality is so fun... The sky is purple here, you know, because I like purple better than blue. I hope you see this as a lighthearted response to your rude and fairly ignorant comment, since I would like to keep the peace while continuing the conversation.
***
Absolutely, and I have no doubt that every SAHM is a WAHM. I think parenting is the most noble job there is.

Children aren't the only people who need a gentle response. But maybe it isn't your calling to have good conversation with the end result being understanding. Thank you for making your position clear. I won't waste either of our time anymore by responding to you. There are plenty of people here who can talk to adults, like adults.

Is this a good example? "Snarkiness sure does make me feel better though. And since you're a mom, I'm sure you can handle it." I'm sure you remember making this comment.

Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.

I request that you return to your previous posts and edit out the disrespectful, sarcastic comments and remember that in Gentle Discipline especially, we are challenged to strive for ideals of behavior even in difficult circumstances!!

I am all for natural and logical consequences...that is why I am such a fan of GD...it certainly DOES NOT mean letting your child run the house or do whatever they want to...to me, GD is all about teaching your child to think for themselves and also teaching them how things work in the real world, which after all, is where they will be spending most of their life when they are out of your care...
***
A lot of pro-spanking parents and negative discipline parents I have come in contact with are real control freaks imo...they get this haughty, offended attitude...my child shouldn't run my life!!

It really seems like a great method, and I thought the restaurant was a good ex, too...
***
IME, I can't say whether I've come across a lot, just b/c I don't know most of them that well. But I know my dad has actually said some of these things out loud. And the situation that makes me cringe the most, is the one where he makes my sisters do what they don't want to do (be held be someone or something like that), just b/c they "shouldn't get used to getting their way". That really bothers me. I don't know how related it is to spanking, b/c I hadn't put them together before coming to this thread... but the controlling attitude really saddens me.

I'll be back in awhile, it's one of those times that I actually have to go do something else...

I get the Pearls magazine, I have TTUAC and several other of their books. I don't hit, spank or flick my kids. I do use some of their techniques for my life. As far as my kids..I stick with most AP and GP books. and of course..my crunchy AP mama. I don't hit anyone, and my children are not hitters (well..they do fight..but it's good old sibling rivalry). I used to spank, but I always felt out of control and I'm a control freak..so that ended that..LOL

I read all kids of stuff, but the books I have from the Pearls have been given to me and I do not share them with parents who don't have a firm grasp in AP. I do have a book on the oldest daughter going on a mission and the book is wonderful and I hope to share it with my daughter as she grows older.

I do have friends who claim that TTUAC works for them. I've taken care of their children. They always obey in my home but are in awe of my lax style of parenting. I only have one real rule "stay out of my yummy body stuff." They can go in my room, they can play with the computers, they can climb in the cuboards...they think we're bazar...but ya know what..my kids follow directions, do what they are told, are respectful and don't throw fits..and we use our words not our hands or sticks.

CAROLSLY QUOTED:
"I get the Pearls magazine, I have TTUAC and several other of their books. I don't hit, spank or flick my kids. I do use some of their techniques for my life."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dunno, I completely disagree with supporting the Pearls in ANY way, shape or form based on their views of hitting, flicking, throwing children in pools of water who can't swim, and especially their view on welcoming your child's molester back into your bed and marriage if he "repents"...

I am all for taking parts of things you agree with and utilizing them, and disregarding the things you don't agree with---except when it comes to extreme cases of violence and disgusting "advice" such as the Pearls advocate. I can't support them AT ALL, in ANY capacity, even if they had an article or 2 I agreed with in theory.

It is kind of like someone saying they don't wear their baby, okay I don't necessarily agree, but I won't disregard them as a person if they generally share the same belief system towards parenting etc...or if someone used disposable diapers I might not think that was too cool but I wouldn't be all bent out of shape about it if I thought they were decent people who did a, b, c for their kids...or taking it a step further, even someone who spanked once or twice or whatever...I DO NOT advocate that AT ALL and would try to steer them away from that but if I saw in every other way they were decent, loving parents who tried to do the best by their children I wouldn't disregard them completely etc...

On the other hand though, you can be the most child wearing, cloth diapering, co-sleeping, non crying it out, crunchy organic food feeding, non plastic having, homeschooling person on the planet, but if you throw your child who can't swim into a pool against their will or repeatedly make them go to you, then tell them to go away, then the one time they ignore your "command" whip them to let them know who's boss, or welcome their molester back in your bed if they "repent" (things the Pearls advocate)...all freaking bets are off and please don't come near me because I am not listening to a word you have to say because those sick, sadistic things alone cancel out any "good" things you might be doing ...kwim?

So, I was on my way to picking up my DH from work, and of course, thinking about this whole discussion when I started crying. I hate to think that I could be so affected by a bunch of people who I don't know or care about (no offense, but I don't know any of you or really care what you think about me, honestly...it's not like I'm talking w/my best friend here...), but I really am affected. I usually don't take things personally, or get my feelings hurt easily. But somehow, having to hear that myself and my family are sadistic, sick, abusive, disgusting, etc over and over again, is really getting to me. Going through this (for me, spiritually) intense conflict means that I am going back and forth between 2 ideas, and weighing things out. I realize now that I shouldn't have come here to explore this issue.

I came here, initially, defending my views that the Pearls weren't so bad. I quickly realized I had a lot to learn, and was glad to have the discussion turn into a way to learn things so foreign to me. This all started less than a week ago, and in that time I have been going through this big inner conflict, which was being vomited all over my computer, where I was hoping to get some guidance and gleam some wisdom. Much to my dismay (although, not surprise), I was met with anger and insults. Still, I expected to have some strong reactions, and I figured the more I explained, and was explained to, the more peaceful and constructive the conversation would be (I am on an AP board, right?). Boy, was I wrong. The majority of the people who talk this out with me, are the people who all but hate me, insist that I am defending the Pearls or (gasp!) even my family who I love despite my supposed abuse in being spanked. While I am still in conflict about the exact way I will parent (especially since my baby has another parent ), I have tried repeatedly to remind people that I am searching, and so willing to be open and taught.

The few kind mamas here who dared to say something in my defence, or further clarify something for me, or even send me a PM of encouragement are overshadowed by the rest. Unfortunately, one of the main things I learned here is that a lot of the Mamas who say "kids are people too" find it too easy to treat people like crap. I really did not expect that so many Mamas from the kind, loving, patient, gentle and natural AP parenting style could act so contrary. I see that you say you want to explain something over and over again kindly to teach your children, but when it comes to teaching me (and probably next, Carolsly), you become abusive with your words.

When I am looking for wisdom, I will go elsewhere. If I need diaper advice, I'll come to MDC.

MomIn Flux: it wasn't a good example at all. You are absolutely right. And I swear, that's not snarkiness this time.

Carolsly: Good luck in here. I've learned that if you like the Pearls, you like abuse.

OurVeggieBaby: You are a different breed of Christian than I've encountered before.

Monkey's Mom: How is it ironic to be shocked that people so against abuse are abusive?

I see that a mod request was made earlier, and I never saw the original post there...but, aside from that, no one here has been abusive. People have reacted strongly and disagreed vehemently, but that's not the same as abusing someone.

I would just encourage you to look at how crummy you feel/felt in a situation where you are new to what's going on and trying to do your best to understand and learn. You wanted loving guidance and patience. That's understandable.

And it's that EXACT scenario that I put children in: new to the world, new to social mores and customs, trying to do their best, only wanting someone to lovingly show them the way, and feeling like crud when people "come down on them" for not having it perfect yet.

But there is a BIIIIIIIIG difference between the way people "came down on" you here and the way people like the Pearls recommend "coming down on" children.

No one laid a hand on you and think how crummy you felt.

Imagine if someone here had slapped you for your questions or naivite or because they mis-understood you?

*That* is the level of crummy that people here react so strongly against.

And I'm *all* for civility--but, I don't feel the same need to protect other adults the way I feel the need to protect children.

I hope that you feel better soon! I think these strong feelings are actually growth. And I DEFINITELY hope that you will stick around and continue to ask questions and learn more about GD.

And just pray about it....He'll give you the answers. He brought you here to MDC. And He brought you all these responses, too. Probably for a reason, right? Hang in there!

"Thank you for making your position clear. I won't waste either of our time anymore by responding to you. There are plenty of people here who can talk to adults, like adults."

Isn't that sweet and gentle??

I believe I have been kind enough to everyone here (I haven't been asked to edit my post so I suppose I have been following the guidelines)

Sometimes people obnoxious enough to acutally articulate teachings such as allowing a CHILD MOLESTER into the home and bed and throwing timid children into a pond get away with their vile teaching because everyone else in this world are following the rules of civility!!!!!

There is no excuse for teaching this bile. Michael and Debbi Pearl should have some civil authority carefully monitioring their activities and they should be thrown in jail when they commit the atrocities they claim to have committed (unless their own testimony can put them away sooner)

Anyone who practices these things should be arrested and jailed.

And I, in a civil manner, plainly say I have no tolerence for child abuse.

Of course Kateana has her fingers in her ears saying, nananaanananaa I can't hear you.

I am a fierce opponant of child abuse (especially child abuse in G-d's Name) and I have fiercely opposed any justification of such abuse without personally attacking anyone (including Kati) I have personally attacked the Pearls....with their own words!!!!

That Kati *feels* attacked is because she's playing Devil's Advocate to those who espouse such beliefs.

Since no one is attacking Kati perhaps she should wonder just how horrible is the position she is defending.

Just want to emphasize, before this thread goes quiet, it is a behavioral fact (coming from a behaviorally trained therapist) that when you hit a child for doing something wrong, the child will avoid YOU, not the thing they did wrong. This has been borne out in research again and again. So, even if you can't agree on the issue of whether spanking can ever be a loving act, you might agree that it is simply not effective.

Oh, and RubyV, thank you for your comments about the SAHM. Few people understand that the SAHM icon is a culturally created creature that bolsters our patriarchial economy. Don't get me wrong, I am quite supportive of SAHMs. But people are people, and some are most fulfilled when home full-time with their kids, while others are most fulfilled when able to exercise various interests beyond their children. Why is it OK for a father to have interests beyond his children, but for a woman this makes her a bad parent or someone who should never have had children? I want my child to see me doing what I need to do to feel whole, so he will both do this for himself someday and seek out others who do too.

kchoffmann, thanks for expressing my thoughts on respect for mothers who work "outside the home" so much better and more patiently than I could have.

Also, to be clear, there have been studies the findings of which have "shown" that children of 2-parent families "do better" in various ways. I don't believe that's the case, but there have indeed been studies showing support for children who do not attend institutionalized day care and for children being raised in two-parent homes. Again, I don't think the SAHM situation is ideal, myself; our culture should support women being able to be more than mothers and housewives while still doing both those things, just as men should be able to have careers, families and homes to care for and enjoy.

Again, the forum guidelines very clearly state that corporal punishment is not viewed as acceptable, ever, on MDC. Just as discussion about the religious aspects of circumcision are directed to the religious studies forum, because the circumcision forum is *against* circumcision. Just as CIO as a sleep-training method will not get support on Family Bed!

Someone lent me a book called Whole Child/Whole Parent. Not my kind of thing, but full of biblical quotes and all about respecting the child and so on. For those who need support for not hitting their children in a religious context it might be helpful, perhaps.

So I actually had not ever read the pearls book, nor did I ever intend to, but last night I downloaded the first chapter and read it together with my husband. I was so sickened and upset that I could not go to sleep. I stayed up until 5:30am cleaning and trying to keep myself occupied. I feel like my conscience and my heart have been seered reading such hateful and cruel acts toward our most precious possessions. I am crying now as I write this. Among the horrid things that I cannot get out of my mind is the story of their 5 month old dd who had learned to crawl and climb stairs very early. They allowed her to continually try to climb the stairs so that they could "switch her bair legs" over and over...even they stated that she was too young to understand the what was happening. For goodness sake, why not put up a gate. I shutter to think what our God thinks about these things. You cannot support part of this teaching and these people. You simply cannot...even supporting a small part is supporting the whole.
We just got a new puppy...and I found that it is no longer acceptable to house train your dog by striking them with a newspaper and rubbing their nose in their mess. Ask any veterinarian and they will tell you that this is not only abusive, but demeaning and damaging to the dog. Why then is it okay for children? I just can't understand. My only consolation and comfort is that they will be judged for their actions.
If you are truly interested in what God says about spanking and beating then you will study out the exact text and find the real meaning that was written in the original language and text. Find a good Bible that translates back to the original text and wording. Search online for everything you can. Your objective being to parent your child in a way that is pleasing and right to God, not to the mothers here on MDC, what your parents did with you,or anywhere else. Do not take others word for it, but study it out yourself and come to your own convictions. Try http://www.gentlemothering.com/ for advice and help from others Christian mamas who believe in GD. Also, here is a Biblical study on the "rod" scriptures to get you started if you have not found it yet.

Quote:

I understand what you are saying about developing, etc... but if they are learning by doing all of this, how is it that they are unable to learn *not* to do them (ex: throwing stuff, etc)? (And not necessarily by flicking, but maybe something else, IDK.) Most babies, at a young age, make throwing things a game, and I can see that, b/c they obviously think it's funny... YK?

I redirect, redirect, redirect. I have been doing it since ds was tiny. When he started to throw his toys. I would simply say very lovingly, "your cars are not for throwing, they are for driving around...brooom broooom, balls are for throwing"(hand him a ball)..."chalk is not for eating, it's for making pretty pictures on the chalkboard"..."gentle to mama(and I take his hand and rub it gently on me". In the absolute rarest situation where he is throwing something and not stopping... I take it away and say again, "cars are not for throwing...balls are for throwing" and I hand him a ball. I keep the car for a couple of minutes and then give it right back. He is too little to understand taking something any longer than that, and by giving it back within a few minutes he remembers why it was taken away.
For the record, I was raised in a Christian household...spanked a lot bare-bottom with a belt, and also sexually molested by my father from the age of 6 to 13(I know I never told anyone because we were taught that our opinion didn't count for anything and that you never disagreed with your parents or other adults...they are always right, and you are a lesser person in their eyes). By todays mainstream standards we were not physically abused by the spankings we received ). Even still, I know how hard it is to feel those feelings that what your parents did was wrong and destructive...and I'm not even talking about the sexual stuff.
Again if you are truly interested in what God has to say about all this, try your very best to figure it out...put your emotions, anxieties, and hurts aside and you will find the truth. "When you know better, you do better."

OurVeggieBaby: You are a different breed of Christian than I've encountered before.

Well, I venture to say that was an insult, though I don't see how standing up for defenseless children and confronting someone who defends what I percieve to be brutal, abusive, sadistic acts towards children is being "unChristian".

I am sorry if you feel being a Christian means openly accepting any person or behavior with kindess and love despite knowing in your heart that the person's behaviors and beliefs directly cause another pain both physically and emotionally.
I don't believe I ever called YOU any names directly or insulted your parents personally at all. I did however, say that I feel ANYONE, not specifically you, but ANYONE, even if it were my own Grandmother, advocated the things I percieve you to be defending--- "throwing a child who can't swim in a pond isn't child abuse" etc...has a sadistic, controlling side that kind of scares me.
The truth sometimes hurts, that is how I feel and I won't apologize for it.

If you read any of my other posts, I have no problem being kind and accepting towards someone who previously spanked and is coming here for help, or who desires to stop etc...and while I have said time and again I am glad you are here seeking out information, it is hard to have any sympathy for someone who I feel has defended the actions of the Pearls repeatedly, people who I believe are committing and advocating crimes against children as we speak. If you consider that unChristian type behavior, well, again, that is an issue you need to explore, not me.

I don't know about the God you worship, but the one I worship doesn't advocate or support atrocities commited toward children. The God I worship allows me the benefit of an opinion and even allows me the emotion of anger and hurt when I see someone advocating the abuse of children. Yes, I heard you when you said you wouldn't do many of the things the Pearls advocate and thank God for that, but on the other hand, I have seen you defend their actions repeatedly, denying it is abuse, defending you Father's actions of spanking and claiming he did it out of "love" etc, and I don't find that acceptable. That is my right. You don't have to agree with me, that is completely up to you.

I am truly sorry that the things that have been said on this thread have upset you, it never makes me happy to know that someone may have been hurt by something I said, but on the other hand, I venture to say a lot of your upsetment has nothing to do with this board. I venture to say that while this thread was a catalyst, that there are deeper issues you are coming to terms with, the knowledge deep down that you were hurt as a child as a result of the "spankings" you recieved and it is hard to come to terms with the fact that someone can love you as much as your family and still hurt you. I went through a similar process myself. I am not being condescending, that is what I feel is the root of your upsetment personally, but hey, I could be wrong, goodness knows I am certainly not perfect.

Let me clarify that I don't believe anyone treated you with disrespect or oput of anger because you came here seeking information, or a new perspective, or you wanted to learn about GD...as far as I have EVER seen, almost EVERYONE has treated people who seek out the GD board with kindess and respect, even if the person has admitted to spanking, being spanked as a child, skepticism of GD etc---but I believe the line was crossed and the upsetment aimed towards you began and continued when you continuosly defended the Pearls, your parents, spanking, VERY non-GD-like "discipline"....and seemed to be very willing to debate that your way/your parents way "worked" etc...

So again, I hope for your sake and for your child's, you will continue to come here and read and post on the GD board, as I think it could do you a world of good (it has me)....but to insult my belief system based on my very justified defense towards children and the people who abuse and hurt them and those who defend those people, is coimpletely ludicrious. I am not bound by God to protect your feelings, I am sorry, but that is the truth. Would it have pleased God had I been a bit more gentle towards you? Probably, but I am under no obligation to treat you with kid gloves, as I don't believe my posts broke any MDC rules of conduct.