daverupa wrote:Here is an article from 2011; apparently they do not have legal recognition, so perhaps the jailed issue relates to this?

I like to quote this: "“I love that it is easy to touch and talk with Dhammananda,” said Khun Tip, a layperson who visits the monastery daily. “Women who have problems with their husbands or families cannot talk to male monks about these things.”"

Something that is often forgotten... I hope there will be fully accepted bhikkhunis asap all over the world. Not to optimistic though.

Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

The first part of Ven­er­a­ble Phra Payutto’s book ‘The Bud­dhist Dis­ci­pline in Rela­tion to Bhikkhu­nis: Ques­tions & Answers: Phra Payutto & Dr. Mar­tin Seeger’ is now available (also touching on the issue of the newly ordained bhikkhunis in the West):

As I have said before, the inability to be ordained as bhikkhunis is not a matterexclusive to women—the same case can occur for men. If the bhikkhu order diesout, men still have the right to be ordained, but they won’t be able to do so. It is thesame for both genders. The Theravadan bhikkhuni order died out. Eventually, thebhikkhu order will die out too, although we don’t know when this will happen ordue to what circumstances.

This is not an issue requiring a claim to women’s rights. To do so stems from amisunderstanding. Why make such claims?—the right for women to ordain asbhikkhunis still exists. The question is where women can be ordained—who has theauthority to give them ordination?

Therefore, I say this matter is being acted on too rashly, with a lack ofadequate clarity. It is the future bhikkhunis who will encounter a problem. This firstgroup of bhikkhunis may not doubt the validity of their ordination because theirdetermination is so strong, but later generations of bhikkhunis may doubtthemselves and not be at peace.We need to show loving-kindness towards those future ordination candidates. Weneed to consider the well-being of women who come to be ordained in the longterm. One shouldn’t simply think: ‘I have been successfully ordained. I follow myown convictions and ideas on this matter, which I have been able to bring tocompletion.’ But in the end the people who incur the consequences are otherpeople.If those women who come forward to be ordained do not clearly see thelegitimacy of their ordination and harbour unresolved doubts, they will face adanger and have issues to resolve. How will they be able to speak with confidence?Therefore, clarity and precision are of utmost importance. If one truly cares fortheir well-being, one will act openly and clearly. These women will then not have tostruggle with confusion and anxiety.

To use an analogy, it is as if someone were to say: ‘I would like to apply for aposition to work in the Siam Air Conditioning Company.’ This company, however,went out of business thirty-eight years ago. That person then complains and askswhy he is not allowed to work for this company.One can reply to that person by saying that if he has the proper credentials, hecan apply for a position, but at this time no such company exists. To fulfil thisdesire one must first reestablish a company with this name. If this is accomplishedthe person can apply for a position. The problem does not lie with the person—noone is blocking this person. The problem lies with the fact that this companydoesn’t presently exist; it has not yet been reestablished.Another example is that of a pupil or the parents of a pupil who say that they likethe seventh grade of elementary school. ‘We want our child to study in 7th grade.Why can’t our child study in 7th grade? Why is he not given the right to study in 7thgrade?’One can answer: ‘Your child has the right to study in 7th grade if he fulfils thecriteria, but the 7th grade of elementary school has been done away with for aboutthirty years.’‘So what can we do so that our child can study in 7th grade?’ The answer is: ‘Youcan encourage the government to reestablish the 7th grade of elementary school.The problem does not rest with your child—no one is keeping your child out. Theproblem is that the 7th grade has been dissolved; there is thus no 7th grade for yourchild to enrol in.’Whether the Siam Air Conditioning Company or the 7th grade of elementaryschool will be restored is dependent on various conditions, some of them similar,some not. For example: money and capital, government policy, the needs anddesires of the public, the suitability according to the present time, etc.For the restoration of the bhikkhuni sangha, however, a crucial stipulationbesides the wishes of women and of society is the Buddha’s regulation in regard tothe ordination of bhikkhunis. The specific regulation here is that the bhikkhunisangha is entrusted with the authority to perform the first stage of bhikkhuniordinations. In the case that the bhikkhuni sangha no longer exists, who has thepower to take this authority away

Personally, based on my desires, I wish to see a legitimate Bhikkhuni Theravadan Order being reestablished, but after reading this book and scanning the web and the Vinaya-Discussion abroad on that subject I can't see one yet. This makes me sad and I want to make clear that I was hoping to find a more optimistic and pro-bhikkhuni-ordination picture. I'm sympathetic of Ajahn Brahm and think of him as a wonderful teacher, but I fear that through this (group?) ordination more confusion and future suffering has been created. But who am I... I wish that one day a unanimous decision within the Theravadan Sangha as a whole can be found, a true and acceptable way for all. But I fear there won't be such a thing.

Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

As you might have noticed by my previous postings within this thread I have not made an appearance as an "anti bhikkuni" practicioner or sexist buddhist. And just by quoting someone not necesarrily expresses that he or she is absolutely down with the quotes in itself. As I've written I am unhappy what I have found within this book but still I have to not just follow my desires on this topic. I have no doubt that these Nuns are speaking, acting and teaching wise and wonderful dhamma (have not experienced yet, but still), but that is not the issue at hand. It appears that this ordinations in itself have caused quite some trouble and were conducted unanimous. Yes you are right, it has been established and future will show what will come out of this. One could argue that it doesn't matter that every theravadan buddhist or monk on this planet earth is accepting these ordinations, and he or she would be perfectly right. That doesn't matter. But what does matter in my opinion is that one could find some objections within the vinaya that ven. Phra Payutto has laid down in this book. It is an interesting read and still if you don't agree it is a worthwhile read and shows that he doesn't seem to be lacking karuna with these nuns but moreso is worrying about there present and future acceptance and what this could mean for their own wellbeing and confidence as bhikkunis.

Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

Well, if one was really worried about acceptance, then I for one don't think one should write or support a book saying their ordination may not be valid. That's just doing the opposite. Also, it clearly is not just concern for the future, because to me it is actually questioning the validity of the nuns who performed the ordination as well - and thus their lineage all the way back. So it is getting stuck in the past. Let's move on.

If we really want to be compassionate and accepting, I'd say it's better to let this topic go already. It's been four years, the ordinations won't be reversed, and as far as I know, the bhukkhunis are doing just fine. Hope to visit them one day, get some inspiration from them and pay my respect.

Just perhaps we could conclude this topic with this lovely video. I would hope so.

reflection wrote:Well, if one was really worried about acceptance, then I for one don't think one should write or support a book saying their ordination may not be valid.

I think a real acceptance won't be accomplished by just merely pretending that everything happened just fine and in absolute accordance with the vinaya and ignore objections. Still we are all within the same dhamma family. I don't feel the urge to chose a side. It seems wise to me to gain knowledge on the jurisdictions related with the ordinations, and therefore I encourage everyone to surpass the simple and coarse separation of practicioners into pros and cons. Somehow it appears like some weired dhamma war, as I sense there is a lot of heat here. And I don't believe that it is right action to yield Dhammapada Verses around like clubs - they come back to oneself.

I've posted something within this thread after the ven. Ajahn Gavesako enouraged us to have a look at this book and the contained interviews. It appears to me that you have not really made it through all the 120 pages. Definetely contemplating my first posting here I realised that the quotations have not been chosen very wisely by myself and especially the last one is an invitation to arguments and resistance. Therefore just read it. It won't magically change your views but might broaden the picture.

If I'd had the chance to meet these determined, motivated and wise Nuns I'd definetely pay them the same respect as I pay every other monastic. I don't have anything against them, their practice or whatsoever.

I accept this situation here as an opportunity and invitation to practice restraint with regards to this topic, especially within this thread. Creating and receiving heat is really nothing that should happen on the dhammawheel. Everyone sees for oneself.

Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

What has emerged for me in the above discussion (and elsewhere) is that many people treasure the Vinaya and respect it, adhere to it and expect adherence, to a large extent for the sake of Vinaya. Whereas for others, Vinaya has a purpose, ie to support a holy life and this is as far as their respect for Vinaya goes. Perhaps this fundamental difference in approach is worth exploring?

I am no Vinaya expert, to say that first. But reading through the book (which I admit I haven't read fully, but also not just the isolated quotes), the main questions raised in the book seems whether bhikkhus can ordain bhikkhunis. That means, to ordain them without bhikkhunis. However, in the case of this topic that is totally irrelevant because this is not how it happened. The ordinations were performed by bhikkhunis, so vinaya-wise there is no wrong-doing, on that subject at least. And unless I missed something, nobody at the ordination was formally accused of breaking the vinaya. So if there were real solid objections, were are they? (As I said I'm no expert, but I trust those who did the ordination and those who had the possibility of making an objection afterward)

So then the question becomes: do we see these nuns that did the ordinations as representative of the original sangha? Apparently some people don't think so - or at least look at their order in such a way that they can't ordain "Theravadan" nuns. Whatever Theravadan would mean exactly.

I'm not trying to create friction anywhere, but I'm just wondering what is acceptance and how do we best practice it with respect to this topic. In my eyes the best acceptance is to see the ordaining and ordained nuns as following the vinaya and as representatives of the original sangha. However anybody else thinks it's best to practice is their business, but having doubts about the certainty of future bhikkhunis is a strange reason not to ordain them or not accept their ordination. It has very little to do with actual concern for women's benefits. It's a bit like being afraid food makes you sick in the future, so you decide not to eat at all. You avoid a potential problem (however unlikely), but at the cost of what? Is this healthy? Is this acceptance and loving kindness?

I will also leave it at this unless somebody has a specific question or correction.

Last edited by reflection on Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

The combination of higher ordinations adopted for the 1998 Bodhgayā procedure islegally correct. The order of bhikkhunīs has been revived. It stands on firm legal foundations and has a right to claimrecognition as a Theravāda order of bhikkhunīs

is explained as incorrect by Ven. Payutto, because the permission for bhikkhus to ordain Pajapati female followers is an "old version" rule, needed temporary at that moment just to create a bhukkhuni sangha. Later on new rule was established, that is the need of both Sanghas to perform ordination, and since then previous permission was no longer valid. It's as if bhukkhu Sangha would disappear except one bhikkhu. He would say to people "Ehi Bhikkhu" to ordian them (like Buddha did before that complicated ordination rule was established) - but would that be a valid ordination? I dont think so -)

The way I see it the whole purpose of the development of Vinaya in the past was to protect and advance the teachings of the Buddha. If the 'rules' are getting in the way of that purpose then they must be changed.

No the rules must not be changed. But the rules should be used in such a way so as to perpetuate the sangha, as the Buddha intended. Its just illogical to use an organisation's rules towards its own extinction

Exactly backwards. The rule about the need of "4 bhukkhus + 4 bhikkhunis to ordain +1 more bhikkhuni" was established by the Buddha exactly to strengthen Sangha - not to weaken it. Likewise the rule about 4 bhikkhus needed to ordain +1 bhikkhu.

pilgrim wrote:No the rules must not be changed. But the rules should be used in such a way so as to perpetuate the sangha, as the Buddha intended. Its just illogical to use an organisation's rules towards its own extinction

Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko