How do Red Bull factor into this rationale? Can't see anyone saying they are a 2nd tier team and yet they are a customer team to an manufacturer. More complicated that that of course, but customer does not always equate to never winning.

It's an anti-manufacturer stance.

lol, so it is a political statement by Red Bull? Am I reading that right? If so, that seems a bit far fetched for Red Bull. The only real advantage that a manufacturer team has is early specifications of the engine so they can design the chassis around it. All other advantages are generally nullified through the contract of supply (e.g. later spec engines)

If McLaren can get a chassis that is as good as Mercedes and an engine that is reasonably powered compared to Mercedes and put in a top tier driver, they will be in with a chance to win, regardless of their status as a customer - just like Red Bull have on many occasions.

lol, so it is a political statement by Red Bull? Am I reading that right? If so, that seems a bit far fetched for Red Bull. The only real advantage that a manufacturer team has is early specifications of the engine so they can design the chassis around it. All other advantages are generally nullified through the contract of supply (e.g. later spec engines)

If McLaren can get a chassis that is as good as Mercedes and an engine that is reasonably powered compared to Mercedes and put in a top tier driver, they will be in with a chance to win, regardless of their status as a customer - just like Red Bull have on many occasions.

No I agree with you, I'm just saying that is the thinking of Zoue.

Er, what?

That a team can't win without the backing of an engine manufacturer.

Not can't, but the odds are heavily stacked against them. It's an engine-dominated formula, stands to reason.

I'm curious how that translates to an anti-manufacturer stance, though?

its pretty much the same performance wise but only one is a works deal

Which of the two engines has powered 36 podiums, including 6 wins.

I'll give you a clue: not Honda.

Which engine hasn't gone 5 races all season without failing?

Max Verstappen's Renault?

I'm being facetious of course. But let's not pretend a Renault engine is going to deliver McLaren a World Championship any time soon.

This post implies that McLaren might win a world championship with Honda, which is frankly laughable.

It's funny how the people making excuses for Honda do a complete 180 when they discuss Renault.

I don't see many people making excuses for Honda, just pointing out that Renault aren't that great, either, and they've been in at the beginning. It makes it even less likely they'll get to grips with things if they haven't done so by now. Let's not forget it wasn't that long ago that Red Bull were desperately trying to split from them

This is the death of McLaren as a top team. They should never have split from Mercedes. Basically they will be nothing more than a customer team (and a customer for the worst engine manufacturer). They will be hard pressed to produce a better package than the works team or the top Renault customer (Red Bull). This seems like a desperation move just to simply get back into the points. It's very sad really. 5 years ago they had one of the best cars and 2 top drivers. Now they have a top driver who is frantically looking for the door and a car that hasn't finished on the podium since they signed with Honda.

As dark as times got with that Honda engine, I still think Honda was their only path to potentially being at the front again. Now they will be resigned to the same fate as Williams at long last...

There is an engine reset in 2021 so in the short term McLaren probably have made the right decision.

In the short term it brings them to the front of the midfield. Is this really the sum of their ambitions now? I think this alleged deal sends out the wrong signals regarding McLaren's long term ambitions and will actually be counter-productive in the long run. I can't see any positives to take from this for McLaren, I really can't

That's because you choose not to look. Red Bull are absolutely crushing the works Renault team. Had there been a few more laps at Monza, a Red Bull would have breezed past the top Ferrari driver. There is no way in hell a Honda powered car is going to do any of this in the next 3 years. No. Chance. At. All.

McLaren need positive results. They have owners, investors, and employees to take care of. Just look at how tiddled off Alonso is. I bet any money that there are engineers inside McLaren that are absolutely furious at how far this team has fallen. I bet even more that some of them have left. Talent walking out the door, because they see no hope at all as long as their designs are tied to the future of the feckless Honda engine.

Honda has been an absolute disaster for McLaren. It will take years to recover from this debacle.

Oh, dear, I'm not choosing not to look. I've outlined my reasons already. I agree the Honda partnership has been disastrous so far. I just don't think going with Renault is best for the long term. They aren't exactly setting the world alight themselves

At this point, considering things have gone quiet, I would say either Honda does not want to break in a friendly manner or Toro Rosso/RBR is not willing to change.

Or worse, Honda is either Mclaren or the highway.

Or is just Mclaren trying to lengthen the situation as much as possible...

Tough days, and I am sure they don't help anyone. If I were Zak Brown, I'd ask the technical staff ( not the upper management ) what to do. The people actually designing the car. Although, if it is Mclaren lengthening the situation, all the guys in design are working flat out to understand if they can succesfully implement the Renault engine.

How many wins and podiums have Renault had in the hybrid era as opposed to Honda?

Why do you think that Honda have more potential to succeed than Renault?

When and if Honda produce a competitive engine, I can't see it for next year, the hybrid era will be about over.

McLaren want to win.

McLaren with a Renault engine will be up against the Renault team, and in Red Bull a team that acted as the de-facto Renault team for a long time. They will need to beat a team who can build a car around the engine and run the latest updates, and also a team who can afford to spend much more than they can. What do you think of their chances?

The partnership with Honda was all about being the de-facto works team. They knew they couldn't compete with Mercedes as a customer. Honda went so wrong that it seems a mistake, but their reality otherwise is basically aiming to be the best of the rest. They will not win a WDC unless they find themselves as the works team, or the de-facto works team.

Honda have only 3 years left to get it right, who's betting on them to do that, and even then what are the chances of it being the out and out best engine?

I can't see that for next year, can you?

Maybe McLaren get a decent engine for 1 or 2 years max if they are lucky, that's a big gamble given Honda's past performance for little reward.

McLaren were a customer team for 3 years before the hybrids came in and were one of the top teams, they could afford to compete at the level of Red Bull back then, why not now?

Their landscape changed when Mercedes decided to re-enter the sport. Mercedes were clearly gearing up towards the hybrid era. A Mercedes who were at the "Win the Championship" phase of their project, would not allow a Mercedes customer to trump them. Of course Mercedes could get the car completely wrong, whilst McLaren somehow get it completely right... but McLaren could see their odds were low.

McLaren are stuck between a rock and a hard place, I agree. Do they continue to blindly hope for Honda to turn it around, or do they take an option which means they're 'competitive' but have very little chance of being the best? They don't have the budget in comparison the other teams that they used to have. They can't spend what Red Bull spend, or what Mercedes spend, or what Ferrari spend.

While i still think Mclaren should stick with Honda as it gives them the best potential to be dominant as opposed to moving to Renault, i would not mind if they switch even if it just makes them get out of the negative space they are in.

So what are the sticking points in the deal?STR are open for a deal possibly driven by RBR wanting future options.Mclaren will need to supply gearboxes. Who currently supplies RBR/STR gearboxes? Are there any other options besides Mclaren gearboxes. And what gearbox will Mclaren use if they switch to Renualt? Will Mclaren still use their own which means the gearboxes will be lesss optimised for Honda over time. Or if Mclaren use Renault gearboxes what will be their motivation to develop Honda geaboxes. Without Mclaren is it then most optimal for Honda to build their own gearboxes, but that would then change the whole business case to re-enter the sport which is why they pushing to stay with Mclaren. If its not for that I think Honda moving to STR should be as lucrative for Honda as being with Mclaren as it still opens the door to become a RBR works team if they prove themselves.I heard other possible issues such as STR drivers not being happy with the move, but well surely RBR strategy trumps drivers grieviances.

most of the comments here seem to me to relate to this years engines. which could bare no significance to next year. nobody knows how good next years engines will be. renault messed up this year as well but i would be far more confident in renault making a good step then honda for next year. whatever happens i dont think honda can make a better engine then renault and there is a very good chance it will be worse. i dont think mclaren expect to have a winning engine next year, even if they do get the renault. they just need to be challenging for top 6 places with red bull, force india, renault, williams and may sneak a few podiums. long term for me they have to either make their own engines or own a company like cosworth.

I think either there is an impossible discord, as in a bad marriage breakup, like Mclaren being left with the equivalent of half a dog, half a shed etc, or it is a matter of show and the move was never really on anyway. Like a top guy telling the boss 'if this does not happen, Im off'

I suppose the other possibility is looking down the line and what sort of deal Mclaren want to return to Honda. If they just want a year off so to speak, no one is going to come in and look after Mclaren knowing that in 2 or 3 years they will be unceremoniously dumped and the performance of the Honda Mclaren compared to how much better it is than it was with them

lol, so it is a political statement by Red Bull? Am I reading that right? If so, that seems a bit far fetched for Red Bull. The only real advantage that a manufacturer team has is early specifications of the engine so they can design the chassis around it. All other advantages are generally nullified through the contract of supply (e.g. later spec engines)

If McLaren can get a chassis that is as good as Mercedes and an engine that is reasonably powered compared to Mercedes and put in a top tier driver, they will be in with a chance to win, regardless of their status as a customer - just like Red Bull have on many occasions.

No I agree with you, I'm just saying that is the thinking of Zoue.

Er, what?

That a team can't win without the backing of an engine manufacturer.

Not can't, but the odds are heavily stacked against them. It's an engine-dominated formula, stands to reason.

I'm curious how that translates to an anti-manufacturer stance, though?

At this point, considering things have gone quiet, I would say either Honda does not want to break in a friendly manner or Toro Rosso/RBR is not willing to change.

Or worse, Honda is either Mclaren or the highway.

Or is just Mclaren trying to lengthen the situation as much as possible...

Tough days, and I am sure they don't help anyone. If I were Zak Brown, I'd ask the technical staff ( not the upper management ) what to do. The people actually designing the car. Although, if it is Mclaren lengthening the situation, all the guys in design are working flat out to understand if they can succesfully implement the Renault engine.

That's what Zak Brown has said he is doing, he's consulting people who know about engines.

This is the death of McLaren as a top team. They should never have split from Mercedes. Basically they will be nothing more than a customer team (and a customer for the worst engine manufacturer). They will be hard pressed to produce a better package than the works team or the top Renault customer (Red Bull). This seems like a desperation move just to simply get back into the points. It's very sad really. 5 years ago they had one of the best cars and 2 top drivers. Now they have a top driver who is frantically looking for the door and a car that hasn't finished on the podium since they signed with Honda.

As dark as times got with that Honda engine, I still think Honda was their only path to potentially being at the front again. Now they will be resigned to the same fate as Williams at long last...

There is an engine reset in 2021 so in the short term McLaren probably have made the right decision.

In the short term it brings them to the front of the midfield. Is this really the sum of their ambitions now? I think this alleged deal sends out the wrong signals regarding McLaren's long term ambitions and will actually be counter-productive in the long run. I can't see any positives to take from this for McLaren, I really can't

That's because you choose not to look. Red Bull are absolutely crushing the works Renault team. Had there been a few more laps at Monza, a Red Bull would have breezed past the top Ferrari driver. There is no way in hell a Honda powered car is going to do any of this in the next 3 years. No. Chance. At. All.

McLaren need positive results. They have owners, investors, and employees to take care of. Just look at how tiddled off Alonso is. I bet any money that there are engineers inside McLaren that are absolutely furious at how far this team has fallen. I bet even more that some of them have left. Talent walking out the door, because they see no hope at all as long as their designs are tied to the future of the feckless Honda engine.

Honda has been an absolute disaster for McLaren. It will take years to recover from this debacle.

Oh, dear, I'm not choosing not to look. I've outlined my reasons already. I agree the Honda partnership has been disastrous so far. I just don't think going with Renault is best for the long term. They aren't exactly setting the world alight themselves

You are unable to follow your own logic. Reverse the situation. Say that McLaren has been with Renault all these years and is only achieving what Red Bull has. Their option going forward is sticking with Renault or going with Honda, which has been powering Torro Rosso to the tune of 10 races without a point, hundreds of grid position penalties, more double DNF's than the rest of the field combined, and unable to challenge anyone but the back markers during the race.

How many wins and podiums have Renault had in the hybrid era as opposed to Honda?

Why do you think that Honda have more potential to succeed than Renault?

When and if Honda produce a competitive engine, I can't see it for next year, the hybrid era will be about over.

McLaren want to win.

McLaren with a Renault engine will be up against the Renault team, and in Red Bull a team that acted as the de-facto Renault team for a long time. They will need to beat a team who can build a car around the engine and run the latest updates, and also a team who can afford to spend much more than they can. What do you think of their chances?

The partnership with Honda was all about being the de-facto works team. They knew they couldn't compete with Mercedes as a customer. Honda went so wrong that it seems a mistake, but their reality otherwise is basically aiming to be the best of the rest. They will not win a WDC unless they find themselves as the works team, or the de-facto works team.

Honda have only 3 years left to get it right, who's betting on them to do that, and even then what are the chances of it being the out and out best engine?

I can't see that for next year, can you?

Maybe McLaren get a decent engine for 1 or 2 years max if they are lucky, that's a big gamble given Honda's past performance for little reward.

McLaren were a customer team for 3 years before the hybrids came in and were one of the top teams, they could afford to compete at the level of Red Bull back then, why not now?

Their landscape changed when Mercedes decided to re-enter the sport. Mercedes were clearly gearing up towards the hybrid era. A Mercedes who were at the "Win the Championship" phase of their project, would not allow a Mercedes customer to trump them. Of course Mercedes could get the car completely wrong, whilst McLaren somehow get it completely right... but McLaren could see their odds were low.

McLaren are stuck between a rock and a hard place, I agree. Do they continue to blindly hope for Honda to turn it around, or do they take an option which means they're 'competitive' but have very little chance of being the best? They don't have the budget in comparison the other teams that they used to have. They can't spend what Red Bull spend, or what Mercedes spend, or what Ferrari spend.

When Mercedes re-entered F1 as a team the hybrid engines were not on the agenda, for McLaren they still had a contract for free engines from Mercedes, that contract ran out and then McLaren had to start paying for their engines, when do McLaren pay for engines they've nearly always been backed by an engine manufacturer.

I know they said that you needed the backing of an engine manufacturer to win but I think you also can't ignore how things changed for them and after years of not having to pay for engines they had to pay again.

There is an engine reset in 2021 so in the short term McLaren probably have made the right decision.

In the short term it brings them to the front of the midfield. Is this really the sum of their ambitions now? I think this alleged deal sends out the wrong signals regarding McLaren's long term ambitions and will actually be counter-productive in the long run. I can't see any positives to take from this for McLaren, I really can't

That's because you choose not to look. Red Bull are absolutely crushing the works Renault team. Had there been a few more laps at Monza, a Red Bull would have breezed past the top Ferrari driver. There is no way in hell a Honda powered car is going to do any of this in the next 3 years. No. Chance. At. All.

McLaren need positive results. They have owners, investors, and employees to take care of. Just look at how tiddled off Alonso is. I bet any money that there are engineers inside McLaren that are absolutely furious at how far this team has fallen. I bet even more that some of them have left. Talent walking out the door, because they see no hope at all as long as their designs are tied to the future of the feckless Honda engine.

Honda has been an absolute disaster for McLaren. It will take years to recover from this debacle.

Oh, dear, I'm not choosing not to look. I've outlined my reasons already. I agree the Honda partnership has been disastrous so far. I just don't think going with Renault is best for the long term. They aren't exactly setting the world alight themselves

You are unable to follow your own logic. Reverse the situation. Say that McLaren has been with Renault all these years and is only achieving what Red Bull has. Their option going forward is sticking with Renault or going with Honda, which has been powering Torro Rosso to the tune of 10 races without a point, hundreds of grid position penalties, more double DNF's than the rest of the field combined, and unable to challenge anyone but the back markers during the race.

You would be here arguing for the move to Honda??

My, aren't we the feisty one?

I'm perfectly able to follow my own logic, thank you. You, OTOH, seem unable to grasp that others may have a different opinion to you. Perhaps you would point out where I have contradicted my own logic?

The logic behind McLaren sticking with Honda is predicated on them being a Works team. This is an engine-dominated formula, after all. With Honda, I believe McLaren have a chance of being a title contender again. Note I said "chance," because it's not guaranteed. Even if it doesn't happen with this set of regulations, the chances are fairly high with the next, since if the rumoured less complicated twin turbos are correct then Honda has decent racing experience with these. And I still agree with Ron that being a Works team will give the highest chance of success.

If they go with Renault, OTOH, then I wouldn't expect them to be title challengers for a long time. Renault have been failures under these rules, too, and their successes with Red Bull have hinged on the competition suffering issues. Picking up scraps is not a future that fills me with hope for McLaren. And Red Bull, despite their odd wins and podiums, have also expressed extreme satisfaction with Renault in the not so distant past. They aren't a supplier anyone is going out of their way to have, that's for sure. Plus, I fear that once Renault feel they have a competitive chassis, they will likely relegate their customers to update hand-me-downs, rather like the other manufacturers are doing. In my view Red Bull are getting the best of it at the moment because Renault haven't got their act together and there's no point in holding things back: they may as well have somebody at the pointy end. But that will undoubtedly change once Renault become a contender as a team. I strongly suspect Red Bull will have an escape plan by then (Porsche, perhaps?). Renault is undoubtedly better than Honda now, but it's the long-term viability I fear. As sandman1347 says, the danger is McLaren become another Williams

Not can't, but the odds are heavily stacked against them. It's an engine-dominated formula, stands to reason.

I'm curious how that translates to an anti-manufacturer stance, though?

I'm going by what you have said these past few years.

No, you're not. You're making an assumption. Not to mention a strawman. My position has consistently been that McLaren are better off sticking with Honda as a Works team. So why are you trying to muddy the waters by claiming I'm anti-manufacturer?

In the short term it brings them to the front of the midfield. Is this really the sum of their ambitions now? I think this alleged deal sends out the wrong signals regarding McLaren's long term ambitions and will actually be counter-productive in the long run. I can't see any positives to take from this for McLaren, I really can't

That's because you choose not to look. Red Bull are absolutely crushing the works Renault team. Had there been a few more laps at Monza, a Red Bull would have breezed past the top Ferrari driver. There is no way in hell a Honda powered car is going to do any of this in the next 3 years. No. Chance. At. All.

McLaren need positive results. They have owners, investors, and employees to take care of. Just look at how tiddled off Alonso is. I bet any money that there are engineers inside McLaren that are absolutely furious at how far this team has fallen. I bet even more that some of them have left. Talent walking out the door, because they see no hope at all as long as their designs are tied to the future of the feckless Honda engine.

Honda has been an absolute disaster for McLaren. It will take years to recover from this debacle.

Oh, dear, I'm not choosing not to look. I've outlined my reasons already. I agree the Honda partnership has been disastrous so far. I just don't think going with Renault is best for the long term. They aren't exactly setting the world alight themselves

You are unable to follow your own logic. Reverse the situation. Say that McLaren has been with Renault all these years and is only achieving what Red Bull has. Their option going forward is sticking with Renault or going with Honda, which has been powering Torro Rosso to the tune of 10 races without a point, hundreds of grid position penalties, more double DNF's than the rest of the field combined, and unable to challenge anyone but the back markers during the race.

You would be here arguing for the move to Honda??

My, aren't we the feisty one?

I'm perfectly able to follow my own logic, thank you. You, OTOH, seem unable to grasp that others may have a different opinion to you. Perhaps you would point out where I have contradicted my own logic?

I am perfectly fine with people having different opinions. This is a discussion forum so we are free to discuss this. I pointed out your lack of logic. You choose to ignore that. Fine. Moving on.

Zoue wrote:

The logic behind McLaren sticking with Honda is predicated on them being a Works team. This is an engine-dominated formula, after all. With Honda, I believe McLaren have a chance of being a title contender again. Note I said "chance," because it's not guaranteed. Even if it doesn't happen with this set of regulations, the chances are fairly high with the next, since if the rumoured less complicated twin turbos are correct then Honda has decent racing experience with these. And I still agree with Ron that being a Works team will give the highest chance of success.

Liberty Media have been pretty clear that they do not want Formula One dominated by engines. The next set of regulations are clearly going to address this. One of the stated goals is to bring in new manufacturers of engines. If Liberty Media succeeds, then we can expect this fetish for having works status to be greatly diminished. You would have to be out of your mind to think that Honda has a snowball's chance in hell to turn around their engine and give McLaren even a podium in today's formula. It will not happen. And let's not forget that a huge part of Honda's problem has been with the ICE (the most basic part of the engine).

Not can't, but the odds are heavily stacked against them. It's an engine-dominated formula, stands to reason.

I'm curious how that translates to an anti-manufacturer stance, though?

I'm going by what you have said these past few years.

No, you're not. You're making an assumption. Not to mention a strawman. My position has consistently been that McLaren are better off sticking with Honda as a Works team. So why are you trying to muddy the waters by claiming I'm anti-manufacturer?

Because you take the line that you can't win unless you are aligned with a manufacturer, the manufacturers are too dominant, they give out inferior engines that kind of thing, yet neither Ferrari or Mercedes want to supply either Red Bull or McLaren for some reason?

I see your recent post saying the engine manufacturers give their customers hand me down updates but no you wouldn't be anti-manufacturer?

No, you're not. You're making an assumption. Not to mention a strawman. My position has consistently been that McLaren are better off sticking with Honda as a Works team. So why are you trying to muddy the waters by claiming I'm anti-manufacturer?

Because you take the line that you can't win unless you are aligned with a manufacturer, the manufacturers are too dominant, they give out inferior engines that kind of thing, yet neither Ferrari or Mercedes want to supply either Red Bull or McLaren for some reason?

I take the line that being a manufacturer gives you an immense advantage and not being one severely limits any title aspirations. I'm at a loss as to how this translates to being anti-manufacturer, though.

pokerman wrote:

I see your recent post saying the engine manufacturers give their customers hand me down updates but no you wouldn't be anti-manufacturer?

No, it's common sense. There's no judgement in that post. If a manufacturer comes out with an update then it's only logical that they'd prioritise themselves first. You're drawing conclusions where there are none.

And in any event, my views on manufacturers are irrelevant to the points being made in this thread. If I say that being a manufacturer has its advantages, then my position on whether or not that's a good thing is irrelevant (unless I form an opinion on it in that or subsequent posts).

You need to stop making assumptions and take the time to read things without constantly looking for a hidden agenda. It was the same in another recent thread where I criticised the FIA for how they wrote the rules and you immediately assumed it was an attack on Mercedes, despite the fact that I took pains to highlight it was the FIA I was critiquing. Please don't jump to conclusions all the time

I'm perfectly able to follow my own logic, thank you. You, OTOH, seem unable to grasp that others may have a different opinion to you. Perhaps you would point out where I have contradicted my own logic?

I am perfectly fine with people having different opinions. This is a discussion forum so we are free to discuss this. I pointed out your lack of logic. You choose to ignore that. Fine. Moving on.

Let's move on after you point out where I was unable to follow my own logic, as you erroneously claimed. If you are going to make accusations, at least have the decency to back them up. If you can, of course. Because from where I'm sitting the only one ignoring things is you

Herb Tarlik wrote:

Zoue wrote:

The logic behind McLaren sticking with Honda is predicated on them being a Works team. This is an engine-dominated formula, after all. With Honda, I believe McLaren have a chance of being a title contender again. Note I said "chance," because it's not guaranteed. Even if it doesn't happen with this set of regulations, the chances are fairly high with the next, since if the rumoured less complicated twin turbos are correct then Honda has decent racing experience with these. And I still agree with Ron that being a Works team will give the highest chance of success.

Liberty Media have been pretty clear that they do not want Formula One dominated by engines. The next set of regulations are clearly going to address this. One of the stated goals is to bring in new manufacturers of engines. If Liberty Media succeeds, then we can expect this fetish for having works status to be greatly diminished. You would have to be out of your mind to think that Honda has a snowball's chance in hell to turn around their engine and give McLaren even a podium in today's formula. It will not happen. And let's not forget that a huge part of Honda's problem has been with the ICE (the most basic part of the engine).

Well, I do think they have a chance of getting podiums in this formula, but I agree that titles are a long shot. AFAIAA there are no major changes planned by Honda for next year so it will be an evolution, not revolution, like this year was.

As to the rules being simpler from 2021, I agree, but it's my opinion that being a manufacturer team will still be advantageous. Simpler does not mean low-tech and I think they will still be complex enough that small things will make a big difference.

Herb Tarlik wrote:

Zoue wrote:

As sandman1347 says, the danger is McLaren become another Williams

McLaren is already another Williams, thanks to Honda.

McLaren's situation, although fairly dire, is (hopefully) temporary. Resigning themselves to being just another customer may well make that permanent, though

I'm perfectly able to follow my own logic, thank you. You, OTOH, seem unable to grasp that others may have a different opinion to you. Perhaps you would point out where I have contradicted my own logic?

I am perfectly fine with people having different opinions. This is a discussion forum so we are free to discuss this. I pointed out your lack of logic. You choose to ignore that. Fine. Moving on.

Let's move on after you point out where I was unable to follow my own logic, as you erroneously claimed. If you are going to make accusations, at least have the decency to back them up. If you can, of course. Because from where I'm sitting the only one ignoring things is you

Herb Tarlik wrote:

Zoue wrote:

The logic behind McLaren sticking with Honda is predicated on them being a Works team. This is an engine-dominated formula, after all. With Honda, I believe McLaren have a chance of being a title contender again. Note I said "chance," because it's not guaranteed. Even if it doesn't happen with this set of regulations, the chances are fairly high with the next, since if the rumoured less complicated twin turbos are correct then Honda has decent racing experience with these. And I still agree with Ron that being a Works team will give the highest chance of success.

Liberty Media have been pretty clear that they do not want Formula One dominated by engines. The next set of regulations are clearly going to address this. One of the stated goals is to bring in new manufacturers of engines. If Liberty Media succeeds, then we can expect this fetish for having works status to be greatly diminished. You would have to be out of your mind to think that Honda has a snowball's chance in hell to turn around their engine and give McLaren even a podium in today's formula. It will not happen. And let's not forget that a huge part of Honda's problem has been with the ICE (the most basic part of the engine).

Well, I do think they have a chance of getting podiums in this formula, but I agree that titles are a long shot. AFAIAA there are no major changes planned by Honda for next year so it will be an evolution, not revolution, like this year was.

As to the rules being simpler from 2021, I agree, but it's my opinion that being a manufacturer team will still be advantageous. Simpler does not mean low-tech and I think they will still be complex enough that small things will make a big difference.

Herb Tarlik wrote:

Zoue wrote:

As sandman1347 says, the danger is McLaren become another Williams

McLaren is already another Williams, thanks to Honda.

McLaren's situation, although fairly dire, is (hopefully) temporary. Resigning themselves to being just another customer may well make that permanent, though

Just a little side track sorry. Most of Honda's problems do not seen to be engine per-se, but the turbo/recovery system and the harvest/store/reuse of energy. When Alonso screams 'NO POWER' he means he has run out of help from the kers not that the engine has gone home.

Just a little side track sorry. Most of Honda's problems do not seen to be engine per-se, but the turbo/recovery system and the harvest/store/reuse of energy. When Alonso screams 'NO POWER' he means he has run out of help from the kers not that the engine has gone home.

Great point. The ICE and turbo do seem to be good enough, hence why they run well at point and squirt circuits. but the hybrid parts are totally useless and that currently can give 160hp boost (heard on Channel 4 F1 coverage )

If in 2021 the engines are twin turbo non complex affairs, then maybe we will have equality and Honda can catch up. Right now, Mercedes have such an advantage over their harmonisation of engine components and chassis that catch up is going to be very VERY hard for any manufacturer, not impossible, as Ferrari have shown, but hard.

Can Honda do it - most likely yesCan Honda do it faster than Renault - maybeIs Renault more likely to do it short term - Most likely yes

I was under the impression that the McLaren was built specifically with the Honda engine i mind. I seem to remember there were cooling worries because of the tight fit.If this is the case wouldn't the chassis be tailored to the PU in terms of width, height and weight distribution. The current plus for McLaren is that the chassis is so quick and nimble. Wouldn't a switch to Renault risk losing all that a forcing a redesign that could lead to the loss of their one current advantage?

I was under the impression that the McLaren was built specifically with the Honda engine i mind. I seem to remember there were cooling worries because of the tight fit.If this is the case wouldn't the chassis be tailored to the PU in terms of width, height and weight distribution. The current plus for McLaren is that the chassis is so quick and nimble. Wouldn't a switch to Renault risk losing all that a forcing a redesign that could lead to the loss of their one current advantage?

I agree it may have an impact but I believe the size zero concept you're referring to was the initial design in year 1. Could be wrong but I think they abandoned that idea this year

Because you take the line that you can't win unless you are aligned with a manufacturer, the manufacturers are too dominant, they give out inferior engines that kind of thing, yet neither Ferrari or Mercedes want to supply either Red Bull or McLaren for some reason?

I see your recent post saying the engine manufacturers give their customers hand me down updates but no you wouldn't be anti-manufacturer?

I would say it was common sense. You only have to look at recent history. See also Ron Dennis comments... if it wasn't for the fact that a works engine is the only way a team will win the WCC/WDC at least until 2021 McLaren would have jumped ship before now.

I would say the reason why those teams don't want to supply those teams is because those teams will be close enough to get between them sometimes and also (particularly in Red Bull's case) are the sort of teams who would then start publicly criticising Merc or Ferrari for giving them second best engines..

_________________Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

Just a little side track sorry. Most of Honda's problems do not seen to be engine per-se, but the turbo/recovery system and the harvest/store/reuse of energy. When Alonso screams 'NO POWER' he means he has run out of help from the kers not that the engine has gone home.

Great point. The ICE and turbo do seem to be good enough, hence why they run well at point and squirt circuits. but the hybrid parts are totally useless and that currently can give 160hp boost (heard on Channel 4 F1 coverage )

If in 2021 the engines are twin turbo non complex affairs, then maybe we will have equality and Honda can catch up. Right now, Mercedes have such an advantage over their harmonisation of engine components and chassis that catch up is going to be very VERY hard for any manufacturer, not impossible, as Ferrari have shown, but hard.

Can Honda do it - most likely yesCan Honda do it faster than Renault - maybeIs Renault more likely to do it short term - Most likely yes

So, Renault it is then

I disagree. There are many artlicles that state Mercs advantage is ICE. Which makes sense. That is were primary energy is released and also determines fuel economy. The rest is about recovery of what is wasted from ICE. The recovery components have their own eficiency factor so you really want to have waste energy minimal from ICE . With new regulations merc will still have the advantage unless others catch up to them w.r.t ICE. Honda can possibly catch up given their current upgrade frenzy. And thats were posibilities dont look as good for Renualt given their rate of upgrades. The more you experiment the more you learn on what works and what does not. Not saying honda does not also have recovery issues they probably have all sorts of issues.My point is dont hold your breath for pecking to change with less complex rules. Same goes for possible new entrants Porche Coswoth etc. Everyone needs to catch up now and honda are doing the right thing with frequent upgrades even though they not reliable.That is what many of us Mclaren fans asked for. Unfortunately patience has also run out

How many wins and podiums have Renault had in the hybrid era as opposed to Honda?

Why do you think that Honda have more potential to succeed than Renault?

When and if Honda produce a competitive engine, I can't see it for next year, the hybrid era will be about over.

McLaren want to win.

McLaren with a Renault engine will be up against the Renault team, and in Red Bull a team that acted as the de-facto Renault team for a long time. They will need to beat a team who can build a car around the engine and run the latest updates, and also a team who can afford to spend much more than they can. What do you think of their chances?

The partnership with Honda was all about being the de-facto works team. They knew they couldn't compete with Mercedes as a customer. Honda went so wrong that it seems a mistake, but their reality otherwise is basically aiming to be the best of the rest. They will not win a WDC unless they find themselves as the works team, or the de-facto works team.

Honda have only 3 years left to get it right, who's betting on them to do that, and even then what are the chances of it being the out and out best engine?

I can't see that for next year, can you?

Maybe McLaren get a decent engine for 1 or 2 years max if they are lucky, that's a big gamble given Honda's past performance for little reward.

McLaren were a customer team for 3 years before the hybrids came in and were one of the top teams, they could afford to compete at the level of Red Bull back then, why not now?

Their landscape changed when Mercedes decided to re-enter the sport. Mercedes were clearly gearing up towards the hybrid era. A Mercedes who were at the "Win the Championship" phase of their project, would not allow a Mercedes customer to trump them. Of course Mercedes could get the car completely wrong, whilst McLaren somehow get it completely right... but McLaren could see their odds were low.

McLaren are stuck between a rock and a hard place, I agree. Do they continue to blindly hope for Honda to turn it around, or do they take an option which means they're 'competitive' but have very little chance of being the best? They don't have the budget in comparison the other teams that they used to have. They can't spend what Red Bull spend, or what Mercedes spend, or what Ferrari spend.

In that case they will not be championship contenders regardless of which power unit they run. Unless some people still believe honda can build a power unit that will trump mercedes. Because that is what it would take to compete at the front if they lack budget. They are better off with renault now and for the foreseeable future. Go grab some podiums, wins, though the championship might not be possible. But youve go to learn how to walk before you can run. With honda they could barely walk for 3 years and there is zero indication that that will change.

Last edited by kleefton on Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I disagree. There are many artlicles that state Mercs advantage is ICE. Which makes sense. That is were primary energy is released and also determines fuel economy. The rest is about recovery of what is wasted from ICE. The recovery components have their own eficiency factor so you really want to have waste energy minimal from ICE . With new regulations merc will still have the advantage unless others catch up to them w.r.t ICE. Honda can possibly catch up given their current upgrade frenzy. And thats were posibilities dont look as good for Renualt given their rate of upgrades. The more you experiment the more you learn on what works and what does not. Not saying honda does not also have recovery issues they probably have all sorts of issues.My point is dont hold your breath for pecking to change with less complex rules. Same goes for possible new entrants Porche Coswoth etc. Everyone needs to catch up now and honda are doing the right thing with frequent upgrades even though they not reliable.That is what many of us Mclaren fans asked for. Unfortunately patience has also run out

See what you are saying and agree - the underlined bold bit - I reserve the right to hope for a change in status quo and a level playing field Hope springs eternal.

How many wins and podiums have Renault had in the hybrid era as opposed to Honda?

Why do you think that Honda have more potential to succeed than Renault?

When and if Honda produce a competitive engine, I can't see it for next year, the hybrid era will be about over.

McLaren want to win.

McLaren with a Renault engine will be up against the Renault team, and in Red Bull a team that acted as the de-facto Renault team for a long time. They will need to beat a team who can build a car around the engine and run the latest updates, and also a team who can afford to spend much more than they can. What do you think of their chances?

The partnership with Honda was all about being the de-facto works team. They knew they couldn't compete with Mercedes as a customer. Honda went so wrong that it seems a mistake, but their reality otherwise is basically aiming to be the best of the rest. They will not win a WDC unless they find themselves as the works team, or the de-facto works team.

Honda have only 3 years left to get it right, who's betting on them to do that, and even then what are the chances of it being the out and out best engine?

I can't see that for next year, can you?

Maybe McLaren get a decent engine for 1 or 2 years max if they are lucky, that's a big gamble given Honda's past performance for little reward.

McLaren were a customer team for 3 years before the hybrids came in and were one of the top teams, they could afford to compete at the level of Red Bull back then, why not now?

Their landscape changed when Mercedes decided to re-enter the sport. Mercedes were clearly gearing up towards the hybrid era. A Mercedes who were at the "Win the Championship" phase of their project, would not allow a Mercedes customer to trump them. Of course Mercedes could get the car completely wrong, whilst McLaren somehow get it completely right... but McLaren could see their odds were low.

McLaren are stuck between a rock and a hard place, I agree. Do they continue to blindly hope for Honda to turn it around, or do they take an option which means they're 'competitive' but have very little chance of being the best? They don't have the budget in comparison the other teams that they used to have. They can't spend what Red Bull spend, or what Mercedes spend, or what Ferrari spend.

In that case they will not be championship contenders regardless of which power unit they run. Unless some people still believe honda can build a power unit that will trump mercedes. Because that is what it would take to compete at the front if they lack budget. They are better off with renault now and for the foreseeable future. Go grab some podiums, wins, though the championship might not be possible. But youve go to learn how to walk before you can run. With honda they could barely walk for 3 years.

Just a little side track sorry. Most of Honda's problems do not seen to be engine per-se, but the turbo/recovery system and the harvest/store/reuse of energy. When Alonso screams 'NO POWER' he means he has run out of help from the kers not that the engine has gone home.

Great point. The ICE and turbo do seem to be good enough, hence why they run well at point and squirt circuits. but the hybrid parts are totally useless and that currently can give 160hp boost (heard on Channel 4 F1 coverage )

If in 2021 the engines are twin turbo non complex affairs, then maybe we will have equality and Honda can catch up. Right now, Mercedes have such an advantage over their harmonisation of engine components and chassis that catch up is going to be very VERY hard for any manufacturer, not impossible, as Ferrari have shown, but hard.

Can Honda do it - most likely yesCan Honda do it faster than Renault - maybeIs Renault more likely to do it short term - Most likely yes

So, Renault it is then

I disagree. There are many artlicles that state Mercs advantage is ICE. Which makes sense. That is were primary energy is released and also determines fuel economy. The rest is about recovery of what is wasted from ICE. The recovery components have their own eficiency factor so you really want to have waste energy minimal from ICE . With new regulations merc will still have the advantage unless others catch up to them w.r.t ICE. Honda can possibly catch up given their current upgrade frenzy. And thats were posibilities dont look as good for Renualt given their rate of upgrades. The more you experiment the more you learn on what works and what does not. Not saying honda does not also have recovery issues they probably have all sorts of issues.My point is dont hold your breath for pecking to change with less complex rules. Same goes for possible new entrants Porche Coswoth etc. Everyone needs to catch up now and honda are doing the right thing with frequent upgrades even though they not reliable.That is what many of us Mclaren fans asked for. Unfortunately patience has also run out

Its not 'waste energy' as such it is shunted in from many places. For instsnce, when the Merc is at full throttle in qualli, the turbo is driving the 'recovery generator' (MGU-H) directly and from here directly to the unit driving the wheels. This is not recovered, it is generated specificity to be extra grunt to the car.

Honda can not do that, so are down on Merc by that amount before anything else. Also, due to the problems in this area, Honda cannot run the engine at its most powerful setting, so it loses out elsewhere. In addition, as if that was not bad enough, this leaves them short in the electric energy available and this has to be replaced by burning more fuel, which leaves them short etc etc.. if you see what I mean.

I think sorting this ONE problem will make it a good engine, because this same area is where the reliability problems come from. (The baring for the high speed shaft apparently)

I think the Merc engine is still more powerful, but Honda seem to think their engine is better than the Renault, erm, apart from this Lol

Edit, please excuse if that sounds condescending, it is not intended to

Last edited by moby on Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

No, you're not. You're making an assumption. Not to mention a strawman. My position has consistently been that McLaren are better off sticking with Honda as a Works team. So why are you trying to muddy the waters by claiming I'm anti-manufacturer?

Because you take the line that you can't win unless you are aligned with a manufacturer, the manufacturers are too dominant, they give out inferior engines that kind of thing, yet neither Ferrari or Mercedes want to supply either Red Bull or McLaren for some reason?

I take the line that being a manufacturer gives you an immense advantage and not being one severely limits any title aspirations. I'm at a loss as to how this translates to being anti-manufacturer, though.

pokerman wrote:

I see your recent post saying the engine manufacturers give their customers hand me down updates but no you wouldn't be anti-manufacturer?

No, it's common sense. There's no judgement in that post. If a manufacturer comes out with an update then it's only logical that they'd prioritise themselves first. You're drawing conclusions where there are none.

And in any event, my views on manufacturers are irrelevant to the points being made in this thread. If I say that being a manufacturer has its advantages, then my position on whether or not that's a good thing is irrelevant (unless I form an opinion on it in that or subsequent posts).

You need to stop making assumptions and take the time to read things without constantly looking for a hidden agenda. It was the same in another recent thread where I criticised the FIA for how they wrote the rules and you immediately assumed it was an attack on Mercedes, despite the fact that I took pains to highlight it was the FIA I was critiquing. Please don't jump to conclusions all the time

Your posts generally seem to be negative towards the engine manufacturers, you said that if Renault produce a competitive car than their customer teams will receive a poorer service, then the term hand me down updates are basically something you give out once you moved on to something better, it's very emotive.

Right now IS NOT the right time to venture away from Honda and all their Milyuns… Aaaaand MILYUNS of the H's Money.With the current sponsorship climate in F1 being what it is, even the mighty McLaren has struggled to find a title sponsor and that honda money goes an EXTREMELY long way towards helping them continue on in the sport without being cash strapped. THAT is a huge commodity that no team can afford to do without. Leaving something that is iron clad which assures their existence for several years to come is far more important than winning and/or dominating.

With Porsche rumored to be heavily weighing on entering F1 as an engine supplier from 2021 on, it would be wise for McLaren to wait and see what may be a serious viable option. Afterall, Porsche is one of V-Dubs best and most established brands and the technology and experience they would brings would also include the sister brand who dominated WEC unlike any team has ever dominated in any sport the world over, and IF V-Dub decides to enter F1 in any capacity, I don't see how they hold back in any regard, so all technologies and proven systems will be pooled together to produce the absolute best product to enter the sport with.

They've already suffered the huge embarrassment of Emisionsgate that cost them hundreds of millions so I'd assume they would only want to enter F1 in the most positive of ways.

I say McLaren bides their time, makes due of a bad situation, keep a tight lip, and wait until 2020 before making a move. By then it's quite possible the Honda, given their new take on working philosophies, bringing in outside help just may get things going in the right direction. And if not, at least they'll have endured the long haul on Honda's buck rather than their own.

just my $0.02

Why not bide their time with Renault - can't be any worse, can it and if there is some success, they will be better position to negotiate with Porsche

A perfectly reasonable approach.

Is it though really?

In F1 prize money is awarded based on points and final position in the standings at the end of the season. As such, Renault isn't really doing great things and hardly better than McLaren and they build the entire package as a whole, and that bunch of guys are more than capable of designing and building VERY solid cars and they haven't got it quite right. At McLaren, since the promotion of Martin Whitmarsh to TP their philosiphy has been to give the next engineer a crack at designing the next season's car and see if that person's ideas pan out better than the current car. As far as I know that hasn't really changed much, but it very well may have. Add to that the turnover rate over the last 3 or so years and that adds the element of instability which further complicates things. With no continuity, outside wheelbase, width and minimum ride height, I don't think it would matter if McLaren ran the best Engine in their cars, they'd still struggle a bit. How much no one can say for certain, but if you remember in 2014 when the new engines dropped, they also ran the Mercedes and they finished behind Ferrari who's Power Unit was abysmally underpowered and outclassed.

So while a move to Renault would at least see them finish more races, it doesn't guarantee they will do well enough to even finish top 5 and such a deal would most definitely NOT bring the millions of dollars Honda does. Red Bull runs Renault engines and Verstappen has suffered a few DNF's due to engine/mechanical troubles and Kvyat, Palmer and Hulkenberg have suffered drivetrain related retirements, so McLaren going with Renault doesn't completely guarantee better results either. They may indeed become more consistent, how much more so is completely unknown.

So the question is not whether they can afford to continue being mediocre until 2021, but rather, can they risk continuing to do so without the additional guaranteed money Honda brings, should they opt to run Renault and still not fare any better?

So the question is not whether they can afford to continue being mediocre until 2021, but rather, can they risk continuing to do so without the additional guaranteed money Honda brings, should they opt to run Renault and still not fare any better?

If they run the Renault engine and don't do any better, they deserve to fail, sad to say. It's a far better engine.

I don't think anyone at McLaren is considering the possibility of fighting for 8th with the Renault engine. If they don't finish 4th, that would be a failure.

Right now IS NOT the right time to venture away from Honda and all their Milyuns… Aaaaand MILYUNS of the H's Money.With the current sponsorship climate in F1 being what it is, even the mighty McLaren has struggled to find a title sponsor and that honda money goes an EXTREMELY long way towards helping them continue on in the sport without being cash strapped. THAT is a huge commodity that no team can afford to do without. Leaving something that is iron clad which assures their existence for several years to come is far more important than winning and/or dominating.

With Porsche rumored to be heavily weighing on entering F1 as an engine supplier from 2021 on, it would be wise for McLaren to wait and see what may be a serious viable option. Afterall, Porsche is one of V-Dubs best and most established brands and the technology and experience they would brings would also include the sister brand who dominated WEC unlike any team has ever dominated in any sport the world over, and IF V-Dub decides to enter F1 in any capacity, I don't see how they hold back in any regard, so all technologies and proven systems will be pooled together to produce the absolute best product to enter the sport with.

They've already suffered the huge embarrassment of Emisionsgate that cost them hundreds of millions so I'd assume they would only want to enter F1 in the most positive of ways.

I say McLaren bides their time, makes due of a bad situation, keep a tight lip, and wait until 2020 before making a move. By then it's quite possible the Honda, given their new take on working philosophies, bringing in outside help just may get things going in the right direction. And if not, at least they'll have endured the long haul on Honda's buck rather than their own.

just my $0.02

Why not bide their time with Renault - can't be any worse, can it and if there is some success, they will be better position to negotiate with Porsche

A perfectly reasonable approach.

Is it though really?

McLaren Honda Points YTD: 11Red Bull Renault points YTD: 212

I fully expect McLaren to perform at or near the level of Red Bull once they have an engine equal to them.

If scoring 11 points is a sign that Honda is on the road to success, then I am blind to that fact.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:

So the question is not whether they can afford to continue being mediocre until 2021, but rather, can they risk continuing to do so without the additional guaranteed money Honda brings, should they opt to run Renault and still not fare any better?

The owners of McLaren are a group of phenomenally wealthy individuals. The fact that they are ready and willing to jettison Honda shows to me that money is of no concern to them.

So while a move to Renault would at least see them finish more races, it doesn't guarantee they will do well enough to even finish top 5 and such a deal would most definitely NOT bring the millions of dollars Honda does. Red Bull runs Renault engines and Verstappen has suffered a few DNF's due to engine/mechanical troubles and Kvyat, Palmer and Hulkenberg have suffered drivetrain related retirements, so McLaren going with Renault doesn't completely guarantee better results either.

RedBull - easily can get top 5's, podiums and sometimes the odd win, with the Renault engine. If Mclaren can't get top 5's with that engine then it's their problem, but one thing is guaranteed is that the Renault engine is much better then that pile of dump that the Honda is. So unless they fail badly they can be sure the results will be far better then they are getting now. That Honda is just awful and moving to Renault will only lead to better results over the course of the season.

So while a move to Renault would at least see them finish more races, it doesn't guarantee they will do well enough to even finish top 5 and such a deal would most definitely NOT bring the millions of dollars Honda does. Red Bull runs Renault engines and Verstappen has suffered a few DNF's due to engine/mechanical troubles and Kvyat, Palmer and Hulkenberg have suffered drivetrain related retirements, so McLaren going with Renault doesn't completely guarantee better results either.

RedBull - easily can get top 5's, podiums and sometimes the odd win, with the Renault engine. If Mclaren can't get top 5's with that engine then it's their problem, but one thing is guaranteed is that the Renault engine is much better then that pile of dump that the Honda is. So unless they fail badly they can be sure the results will be far better then they are getting now. That Honda is just awful and moving to Renault will only lead to better results over the course of the season.

You raise an interesting point. With the miserable Honda engine, McLaren probably cant even judge their chassis properly. The engine is absolutely gutless and can't run a full race. How can they develop the aerodynamics of the chassis with such a slow engine? How can they test the reliability when the car is so slow an doesnt put on a lot of miles? With a Renault engine, they can immediately benchmark themselves against Red Bull.

There are so many ways McLaren can get better once they get rid of Honda.