So why can't Obsidian make KotOR III and ignore BioWare? And BioWare did ignore Obsidian. They made it that the emperor turned Revan to the dark side, ignoring the fact that Revan left the infrastructure of the Republic intact and waged a war of conversion, not destruction.

I think if Obsidian ever made KotOR III, they should ignore the novel and the MMO. Make the game about searching for whatever it was that lead Revan to the true Sith in the first place. Find the true Sith and help Revan and the Exile defeat them for good. The end.

Actually if we listen to Kreia in TSL (and in case you're going to give me any malarkey about TOR somehow invalidating the events of TSL, please explain exactly how it does so), then Revan turned to the dark side on his own while fighting the Mandalorian Wars, where he made it part of his strategies to deliberately have Jedi and Republic leaders not loyal to him killed off and use exposure to the horrors of war to corrupt his followers. The only change TOR makes in this regard is that Vitiate made him a Sith, not a dark-sider (and even then, we have room to believe that Revan declared himself a Sith Lord anyway before that upon finding the Trayus Academy).

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Revan left the infrastructure of the Republic intact and waged a war of conversion, not destruction.

This means next to nothing. War consists of sending your forces to destroy or capture the forces and facilities of your opponent. Revan did this. That he allegedly did more capturing of facilities than destroying them doesn't make the Jedi Civil War a "war of conversion" (and it wasn't really necessary anyway, since he had the Star Forge behind him).

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Make the game about searching for whatever it was that lead Revan to the true Sith in the first place. Find the true Sith and help Revan and the Exile defeat them for good. The end.

The most obvious, trite, and fanservice-oriented way possible to resolve the conflict, which hundreds of fans have already written in their fanfics anyway? No thank you, sir. Even if they did do this, you and the rest of the dissatisfied fans wouldn't like it because you can still imagine a better KotOR III.

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

But being made a Sith by Vitard means that Revan never turned to the dark side on his/her own. And what Kreia says is this, "Perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew. The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil."

BioWare changes that and makes it so that Revan became the dark lord to serve the emperor. They disregarded a great idea and replaced it with their lame black and white bull****.

Making Revan a prisoner for 300 years, killing off the Exile cheaply and forcing canon down the players throats in an MMO? No thank you, sir.

Some of the fan fiction people came up with was ten times better than what BioWare produced, which is sad, because Bio are supposed to have professional writers.

But being made a Sith by Vitard means that Revan never turned to the dark side on his/her own.

Please read what I wrote again.

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Some of the fan fiction people came up with was ten times better than what BioWare produced, which is sad, because Bio are supposed to have professional writers.

I have yet to hear of any such fan fiction. If you disagree, though, feel free to go read it.

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Making Revan a prisoner for 300 years, killing off the Exile cheaply and forcing canon down the players throats in an MMO? No thank you, sir.

Bioware has no reason to make apologies for Revan and the Exile being beatable. As far as I'm concerned, the Revan novel did nothing but take these two characters that the fanbase exalts as the greatest and wisest Force-users ever and make them actually just a little bit human.

More to the point, canon is an editorial necessity since these stories are part of the larger Star Wars EU, and there has to be an official version of these galactic events if any subsequent stories are to make reference to it (and not allowing future authors to reference the KotOR games for the sake of some fans' egos would be absurd). If you don't like the official version they come up with, well, you don't have to like it. And you only have to accept it if you're in a debate with someone which requires the whole of the EU to be taken into account. Just do what I do with all the EU I don't like (Jedi Academy trilogy, Karen Traviss, New Jedi Order series, Legacy of the Force, etc), and don't like it.

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And what Kreia says is this, "Perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew. The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil."

BioWare changes that and makes it so that Revan became the dark lord to serve the emperor. They disregarded a great idea and replaced it with their lame black and white bull****.

Ah, the classical position toward Revan. You're wrong.

It's late, I've debated on this many times before, this forum is a bad habit anyway, and I sort of hate myself, so I'm only going to explain why you're wrong once, in a numbered list with subtitles for your convenience. Consider this my reply to you to end all future replies to you, as well.

1. You are accepting Kreia's every word about Revan as fact despite the fact that she is unreliable - As we see in abundance throughout TSL, Kreia tends to have very, very strong opinions about her student, particularly whenever those opinions are about whether he was justified in his actions. Worth noting is that Revan is known for defying the Jedi Council many times in his actions, and that Kreia has an intense vendetta against the Council for denouncing Revan and her. Kreia despises the Council and their decrees, considering them to be set in their ways and unwilling to stand for supposedly being proven wrong, and feels betrayed for how they blamed and exiled her for Revan's turn to the dark side. Kreia lost her life as a Jedi Master because the authorities over her wouldn't accept her greatest student. She equipped Revan for everything he did, and then lost everything because of it. She therefore has a need to justify Revan, and therefore herself, in order to believe that her life hasn't been a waste. Is it not telling that she absolutely never in TSL says anything whatsoever about Revan that is negative or critical, never says anything about him except what a great guy he was? Also noteworthy is that she claims to know quite a lot about Revan's motivations, but has no way of actually knowing so much about those motivations after Revan left for the Mandalorian Wars, since we have no evidence that the two were in contact during or after that period. In short, Kreia has several major self-serving reasons to portray Revan in an unrealistically positive light and to pass off his actions as being for the noblest reasons imaginable. There is very little reason to consider her an authority where Revan is concerned.

2. Revan did not become the Dark Lord of the Sith out of any necessity, whether we accept TSL or TOR's theoretically revised version of it - The soundness of Revan's joining of the Mandalorian Wars is debatable. On one hand, the Jedi Council was initially doing little to deal with the invaders. On the other hand, Revan was being reckless in leading a large number of Jedi in direct defiance of them under his own command, inviting the possibility of some sort of disaster befalling them on account of his unchecked leadership (which eventually did happen; worth noting is also that the Council did give Revan their support against the Mandalorians after the genocide at Cathar was revealed to them per the comic, Masks). More important, though, is Revan's actions after he had been fighting in the war for a while. We are given plenty of information even as far back as KotOR I (the computer guarding the Kashyyyk Star Map, especially) about how he conducted the war, being willing to allow preventable deaths in order to strengthen his own public image. In TSL, Kreia (on Dantooine after slaying the three Jedi Masters) goes into detail about how Revan deliberately used the war to corrupt his Jedi to the dark side and to loyalty to him ("The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion"). HK-47 (and several others) also note that Revan deliberately worked to have certain individuals under his command killed in the war - specifically, those who were not loyal to him personally and therefore wouldn't follow him when he betrayed the Republic. This directive culminated in Malachor V, where Revan deliberately used a superweapon to massacre both the Mandalorian fleet and his own fleet, composed of officers he determined wouldn't follow him, with the side-effect of shattering the nearby planet and creating a wound in the Force. Now then, with all that out of the way, the question remains of whether for Revan, knowing about the Sith Empire in the unknown regions eventually wanting to come get revenge on the Republic, becoming a Sith Lord was justified. The answer is no because after having beaten the Mandalorians, Revan could have told the Jedi and Republic about the true Sith (his findings on Malachor would have been more than enough to convince the Jedi Council). Instead he took his fleets and armies, made all of them into Sith, and declared war on the Republic - this act was in no way prompted by any dire situational circumstances and can only be explained by a desire on his part to rule the galaxy. Whether he eventually was made into a herald of Vitiate is incidental to this; Revan already set his plans to become a Sith ruler in motion before the two ever met.

3. Revan's actions caused a lot of horrible repercussions - Revan created a Sith Order which spawned the likes Malak, Jorak Uln, Uthar Wynn, and countless other despots and narcissists (none of which, it is ever hinted, he ever disapproved of or punished the brutality of despite Revan supposedly caring so much about reducing collateral damage), as well as Sith assassins who tortured captive Jedi into converting. He is also indirectly responsible for Darth Nihilus and Malachor's wound in the Force (which he may or may not have been able to forsee). Needless to say, absolutely none of this was necessary in order to protect the galaxy from the true Sith.

4. There is no evidence to suggest that Revan's actions nearly prevented a greater evil because he was no better than the "true" Sith - What did Vitiate plan and eventually carry out 300 years later? Invade and conquer the galaxy with his Sith Empire. What did Revan do? Invade and try to conquer the galaxy with his Sith Empire. And there is nothing fundamentally different about the two Empires, as far as how well the galaxy would've fared under either of them. Vitiate's empire was extremely Human and Pureblood Sith-centric, but as we see in KotOR I, the Sith of Revan and Malak's empire were just as racist, at least in the rank-and-file membership (though it is notable that very few Sith in the game are non-human). In the end, both Sith rules destroyed planets and killed Republic military members, Jedi, and civilians. There is nothing suggesting the galaxy would have been better off under Revan. If anything, his noble goal of saving it from the "true" Sith is merely how Revan justified his goals of conquest himself (and again, this is generously assuming that Kreia knew anything about what she was talking about when speaking for his motivations); he wanted to save the galaxy for himself.

In brief - The supposed gray morality of Revan in TSL is a lie that Kreia invents to justify herself and him (and for the record, I like the story of TSL not because it's a tract about how ****ing awesome Revan supposedly is, but because Kreia's character is written in such a powerful way). Whether you believe TSL, TOR, or both, Revan became a Sith Lord, killed a ton of innocent people during and even before that period, and tried to conquer the galaxy. Best-case scenario, Revan was a egomaniacal, sanctimonious, treacherous, delusional mass-murderer who successfully fooled himself (and his old master) into believing that his selfish desires for personal power were noble intentions to "save" the galaxy from others, and the only reason he was better than Vitiate himself is that unlike Vitiate, he didn't want to literally consume all life in the universe.

So, yeah. Revan's not a good character because he was so awesome that he was able to transcend morality and the fundamental rules of the Force in Star Wars. He was a good character because he's a tragic figure who began as a hero, fell to evil despite having good intentions (and likely justified it to himself along the way), but then was given a chance for redemption. And in the canon he went down fighting for what he believed in. Except in TOR the game; ironically, his last appearance to date in that game has him pulling the exact same routine as in his Mandalorian War days. Good enough for me aside from that last part. You're free to think what you want, but unless I've completely misinterpreted your position (which case I guess I'll just have to live with myself), you're wrong.

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

Still, I agree with you what Revan did was wrong, even if Revan was convinced otherwise.

Anyway, canon is necessary for novels and so on, sure, but not for video games. TSL did just fine without forcing canon on the players thank you very much. There was a plot proposal I read years ago by Jediphile on the Obsidian forums that was excellent.

He let you select the genders and alignments of Revan and the Exile and like TSL, the story was pretty much the same throughout, except the last 10% of the game had different outcomes depending on their alignment. If a fan can do it (and there's no doubt others could have), then I think professional writers could have, too.

To add further to this, all the developers had to do was make up a reason for Revan and the Exile to be wearing masks. For example, the air on the mysterious true Sith planets could have been toxic to off worlders. Then you just change some of the dialogue based on their alignment. The intentions change, that is it. Or, Revan and the Exile could have played a role in the third game without the player necessarily having to physically see or hear them.

Bioware has no reason to make apologies for Revan and the Exile being beatable. As far as I'm concerned, the Revan novel did nothing but take these two characters that the fanbase exalts as the greatest and wisest Force-users ever and make them actually just a little bit human.

I actually agree to a point, the fanbase really hyped Revan and the Exile up to God-like creatures. This perhaps came from the fact that they controlled their actions. Course, you can also apply the same logic to Kyle Katarn. Is he any less a jedi than Revan or the Exile? (I'm not gonna bother saying her real name).

However, given the accounts from multiple people in Kotor I and II (Canderous, The Jedi Council, Bastila, Carth, need I say more) that Revan was perhaps the greatest strategist of his time. Given how formidable the Mandalorians are, an out-of-the-box strategist is needed for such a conflict. I doubt Malak would have even come close to defeating the Mandalorians because he did not understand military strategy as Revan did.

As for the novel, I read it myself and it really is a poor excuse for continuity. The fact that Revan would abandon his normal life just because he had some bad dreams is unbelievably stupid, and what's more is that it completely disregarded a lot of the events of Kotor II. Sure, TSL really wasn't THAT huge on the galaxy as Kotor I was, but you'd think people would notice that the Jedi fell of the map, planets are dying, and force vampires are killing various force sensitives. It would be pretty hard to miss that.

Secondly, it was made pretty darn clear in TSL that the Exile wasn't a normal Jedi, she was basically a Force Black Hole. The novel itself depicted her as a normal jedi like anybody else. Given that perspective, it's understandable that her power grew to enormous amounts around the force sensitives she was with. Traveling alone made her a normal Jedi once more. However, the Exile's background is a pretty huge factor if you're gonna make a novel including her.

Now, onto other aspects, while some of the novel was ridiculous, I will say I liked certain parts such as Revan's venture with Canderous. But, the book as a whole just seemed idiotic as it cast Star Wars back into the idea that everything was black and white. I think many of us, perhaps a lot preferred Star Wars when things weren't as simplistic.

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More to the point, canon is an editorial necessity since these stories are part of the larger Star Wars EU, and there has to be an official version of these galactic events if any subsequent stories are to make reference to it (and not allowing future authors to reference the KotOR games for the sake of some fans' egos would be absurd). If you don't like the official version they come up with, well, you don't have to like it. And you only have to accept it if you're in a debate with someone which requires the whole of the EU to be taken into account. Just do what I do with all the EU I don't like (Jedi Academy trilogy, Karen Traviss, New Jedi Order series, Legacy of the Force, etc), and don't like it.

I personally don't like the way things turned out, but the reason why is because it retcons so many ideas brought up in TSL that it basically becomes non-existant. It's hard to ignore a game focused on characters and back story when so many people have played it (Though given how it was incomplete, there were probably a lot of people who didn't like it). What makes RPGs so great is that you should feel that your decisions matter. For Example, in Mass Effect (disgregarding ME3), you pretty much see the results of your choices through and through. While some choices are basically meaningless, others show throughout. Again, a lot of the decisions and actions in Kotor and TSL had a pretty large impact throughout the galaxy, so it would have taken some mass-amnesia disease to wipe that all away.

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1. You are accepting Kreia's every word about Revan as fact despite the fact that she is unreliable - As we see in abundance throughout TSL, Kreia tends to have very, very strong opinions about her student, particularly whenever those opinions are about whether he was justified in his actions. Worth noting is that Revan is known for defying the Jedi Council many times in his actions, and that Kreia has an intense vendetta against the Council for denouncing Revan and her. Kreia despises the Council and their decrees, considering them to be set in their ways and unwilling to stand for supposedly being proven wrong, and feels betrayed for how they blamed and exiled her for Revan's turn to the dark side. Kreia lost her life as a Jedi Master because the authorities over her wouldn't accept her greatest student. She equipped Revan for everything he did, and then lost everything because of it. She therefore has a need to justify Revan, and therefore herself, in order to believe that her life hasn't been a waste. Is it not telling that she absolutely never in TSL says anything whatsoever about Revan that is negative or critical, never says anything about him except what a great guy he was? Also noteworthy is that she claims to know quite a lot about Revan's motivations, but has no way of actually knowing so much about those motivations after Revan left for the Mandalorian Wars, since we have no evidence that the two were in contact during or after that period. In short, Kreia has several major self-serving reasons to portray Revan in an unrealistically positive light and to pass off his actions as being for the noblest reasons imaginable. There is very little reason to consider her an authority where Revan is concerned.

Kreia never had strong feelings for her students, the only think she cared about was her resolve and what she had to do. She was one of the most manipulative characters I have ever met, until the Illusive Man, I probably haven't seen anyone lie as much as her, and even then I think she has him beat. However, what makes Kreia unique is that she understands both light and dark. She was at a time a Jedi Knight, it may not be official but given the clues throughout the game we can all know who she really is/was before become a Sith Lord.

You're assuming a lot right there, but so am I. Is it so hard to believe that she is simply proud of her student who succeeded in every way she wanted him to? Secondly, nobody really knows what happened to Revan out in the unknown regions. That jedi archive person may assume what happened, but again that comes from a biased view. Remember that Kriea was most likely a sith lord by the time of Malachor V, and it was said that Revan walked the surface and learned the teachings there, probably from her. Again, who knows what happened there. However, you idea that Kriea makes Revan out to be a God is ridiculously unfair.

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2. Revan did not become the Dark Lord of the Sith out of any necessity, whether we accept TSL or TOR's theoretically revised version of it - The soundness of Revan's joining of the Mandalorian Wars is debatable. On one hand, the Jedi Council was initially doing little to deal with the invaders. On the other hand, Revan was being reckless in leading a large number of Jedi in direct defiance of them under his own command, inviting the possibility of some sort of disaster befalling them on account of his unchecked leadership (which eventually did happen; worth noting is also that the Council did give Revan their support against the Mandalorians after the genocide at Cathar was revealed to them per the comic, Masks). More important, though, is Revan's actions after he had been fighting in the war for a while. We are given plenty of information even as far back as KotOR I (the computer guarding the Kashyyyk Star Map, especially) about how he conducted the war, being willing to allow preventable deaths in order to strengthen his own public image. In TSL, Kreia (on Dantooine after slaying the three Jedi Masters) goes into detail about how Revan deliberately used the war to corrupt his Jedi to the dark side and to loyalty to him ("The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion"). HK-47 (and several others) also note that Revan deliberately worked to have certain individuals under his command killed in the war - specifically, those who were not loyal to him personally and therefore wouldn't follow him when he betrayed the Republic. This directive culminated in Malachor V, where Revan deliberately used a superweapon to massacre both the Mandalorian fleet and his own fleet, composed of officers he determined wouldn't follow him, with the side-effect of shattering the nearby planet and creating a wound in the Force. Now then, with all that out of the way, the question remains of whether for Revan, knowing about the Sith Empire in the unknown regions eventually wanting to come get revenge on the Republic, becoming a Sith Lord was justified. The answer is no because after having beaten the Mandalorians, Revan could have told the Jedi and Republic about the true Sith (his findings on Malachor would have been more than enough to convince the Jedi Council). Instead he took his fleets and armies, made all of them into Sith, and declared war on the Republic - this act was in no way prompted by any dire situational circumstances and can only be explained by a desire on his part to rule the galaxy. Whether he eventually was made into a herald of Vitiate is incidental to this; Revan already set his plans to become a Sith ruler in motion before the two ever met.

So you're basically saying that Revan fell in the same basic sith way? False, his fall didn't happen at the hands of any sith lord. He had already fallen by then, the mandalorians tought him a lot as Kreia said. Given the turn of events, it's safe to say that Revan had already fallen by the time of Malachor V. So then what do you suggest he should have done then? There were two choices, be overly cautious or take action? Had he not gone to war, you think the galaxy would have been better off? (ugh, I feel deja vu here).

If you think about it, allowing preventable deaths to happen to make your public image stronger is a sound tactic. It spurs the public to react, thus more soldiers bolster your ranks. This has been a tactic for years. Second, would you rather kill your enemy or turn him to your side of things? Taking Jedi and turning them to your side yet again bolsters your rank, plus in time it will erode the will of opposing Jedi and the public. And what would you have done in his shoes? As a General, you want soldiers who are loyal to you and will do as you ask, no matter what. If you have soldiers that are disloyal, they are seen as expendable and are sent first into fire, or are transferred to another unit.

You're implying that the Jedi actually had the strength and will to go fight a war against the Sith right then and there. The republic was spent after its war with the Mandalorians, and why would the Jedi trust Revan after he defied them openly? If the current military power was un-prepared and in-capable of fighting a war against a power that was 10-times the size of what Revan conjured, then it would be better it be replaced by another.

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3. Revan's actions caused a lot of horrible repercussions - Revan created a Sith Order which spawned the likes Malak, Jorak Uln, Uthar Wynn, and countless other despots and narcissists (none of which, it is ever hinted, he ever disapproved of or punished the brutality of despite Revan supposedly caring so much about reducing collateral damage), as well as Sith assassins who tortured captive Jedi into converting. He is also indirectly responsible for Darth Nihilus and Malachor's wound in the Force (which he may or may not have been able to forsee). Needless to say, absolutely none of this was necessary in order to protect the galaxy from the true Sith.

Darth Nihilus at the time wasn't exactly part of the big picture, so him being un-aware is understandable. The narcissists you describe are what Revan pictures are mere fodder for his army, I doubt he cared what background they were as they got the job done.

So really, how can you truly come to the conclusion that he wasn't doing this out of protecting the galaxy from the true sith? I mean no offense, but from what I take you're point of view seems as narrow as that of a Jedi in that era. Bioware and Obsidian may have not meant to mean more than the simple Light-side/dark side dichotomy, but lucas meant Star Wars to be a universe full of speculation.

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4. There is no evidence to suggest that Revan's actions nearly prevented a greater evil because he was no better than the "true" Sith - What did Vitiate plan and eventually carry out 300 years later? Invade and conquer the galaxy with his Sith Empire. What did Revan do? Invade and try to conquer the galaxy with his Sith Empire. And there is nothing fundamentally different about the two Empires, as far as how well the galaxy would've fared under either of them. Vitiate's empire was extremely Human and Pureblood Sith-centric, but as we see in KotOR I, the Sith of Revan and Malak's empire were just as racist, at least in the rank-and-file membership (though it is notable that very few Sith in the game are non-human). In the end, both Sith rules destroyed planets and killed Republic military members, Jedi, and civilians. There is nothing suggesting the galaxy would have been better off under Revan. If anything, his noble goal of saving it from the "true" Sith is merely how Revan justified his goals of conquest himself (and again, this is generously assuming that Kreia knew anything about what she was talking about when speaking for his motivations); he wanted to save the galaxy for himself.

No evidence? Hmm, let me see..

1. Preserving military structures for future use
2. Converting hostile forces to your side
3. Revan was only willing to use the Star Forge to a point, he never actually embraced it as fully as Malak did.
4. If Revan knew about the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine already, why didn't he destroy it? It wasn't exactly hidden.
5. Created an entire race of hunter-killer droids that he left inactive.
6. purposely hid away the Mandalore helmet, if he didn't care about it then why didn't he destroy it?

I'd say that's evidence right there, it can be interpreted in many ways but the Star Forge point really settles it, if Revan was truly interested in power than he would have embraced its corruption.

While you may have a point about the similarities, the Revan's sith wasn't nearly as racist as you claim. But I digress, using an enemy's strategy can be key in learning how to defeat it.

Innocents died at the hands of Goto as well, are you willing to claim he was an object of the Sith as well? Revan was at war with the Republic, do you expect him to be nice to the soldiers?

Let's see, a democratic government filled with corruption that takes a long time to get things done or a ruthless but efficient dictatorship that succeeds at its goal with little trouble? I'd take the dictatorship anyday. A dictatorship has a far better chance of surviving than a democracy does in a war that the true with wages.

Kreia is a more complex character than that, her motivations may have been questionable but she definitely was not nearly as near-sighted as that you claim. Her plot to get revenge against the Jedi took many years of careful planning. She didn't want to kill them out-right, she wanted to prove them wrong and show how their teachings were wrong.

*sigh* simplistic Star Wars here I go again.

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In brief - The supposed gray morality of Revan in TSL is a lie that Kreia invents to justify herself and him (and for the record, I like the story of TSL not because it's a tract about how ****ing awesome Revan supposedly is, but because Kreia's character is written in such a powerful way). Whether you believe TSL, TOR, or both, Revan became a Sith Lord, killed a ton of innocent people during and even before that period, and tried to conquer the galaxy. Best-case scenario, Revan was a egomaniacal, sanctimonious, treacherous, delusional mass-murderer who successfully fooled himself (and his old master) into believing that his selfish desires for personal power were noble intentions to "save" the galaxy from others, and the only reason he was better than Vitiate himself is that unlike Vitiate, he didn't want to literally consume all life in the universe.

Innocent deaths are often un-avoidable, and sometimes their deaths are useful to your advantage. I'm sure there are strategists in America's Military who think the same way. It's not exactly a far fetched idea for Star Wars even.

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So, yeah. Revan's not a good character because he was so awesome that he was able to transcend morality and the fundamental rules of the Force in Star Wars. He was a good character because he's a tragic figure who began as a hero, fell to evil despite having good intentions (and likely justified it to himself along the way), but then was given a chance for redemption. And in the canon he went down fighting for what he believed in. Except in TOR the game; ironically, his last appearance to date in that game has him pulling the exact same routine as in his Mandalorian War days. Good enough for me aside from that last part. You're free to think what you want, but unless I've completely misinterpreted your position (which case I guess I'll just have to live with myself), you're wrong

I think you're gathering that point of view off many of the fanboys of Revan all around. I don't agree with them either, and I do agree with you that Revan wasn't a God as many people do say. However, you can't deny that he was an exceptional individual, and his fall to evil as you claim just doesn't seem to live up to his true persona as a brilliant strategist. He probably did see that the Sith will eventually conquer everybody, and he probably did commit atrocities that he meant. However, I don't think the generic Sith applies to Revan.

I'm going to bed, I'll come back tomorrow. FYI, I don't mean anything against you bro, I just like a friendly debate

BioWare ignored The Sith Lords? Really? Not sure if you noticed or not, but the ghost of Meetra Surik (the Exile) is in The Old Republic. Not only that, but the entire basis for the enemy faction in that game--the "true Sith"--comes entirely from The Sith Lords. (And before anyone foolishly points out that the "true Sith" were mentioned in the first game, if you look at the quote in context, it was clearly a throwaway line with nothing deep behind it other than what had already been established in the Expanded Universe.)

Check out Bob's post, I don't mean they literally ignored it as in disregarded the whole freaking thing, but they took TSL's complexity and ambiguity and flushed it down the toilet. They replaced it with a generic Sith Lord Revan, they turned the Exile back into an average Jedi and a cheerleader for Revan... they ****ed it all up.

BioWare ignored The Sith Lords? Really? Not sure if you noticed or not, but the ghost of Meetra Surik (the Exile) is in The Old Republic. Not only that, but the entire basis for the enemy faction in that game--the "true Sith"--comes entirely from The Sith Lords. (And before anyone foolishly points out that the "true Sith" were mentioned in the first game, if you look at the quote in context, it was clearly a throwaway line with nothing deep behind it other than what had already been established in the Expanded Universe.)

I don't know about TLC but I am not saying that they retconned everything. They kept some of the general things in there but others were utterly retconned. For example, the exile's background is a pretty big thing to ignore, but saying she is a normal jedi is a big mistake, because anybody who has played kotor II knows that she isn't a normal force user. A

Yeah pretty much. It's like the wound in the force, echoes and shades of grey plot of TSL went way over their heads and way out of their depth so they didn't ignore it per se, but dumbed it down in typical BioWare fashion.

So why can't Obsidian make KotOR III and ignore BioWare? And BioWare did ignore Obsidian. They made it that the emperor turned Revan to the dark side, ignoring the fact that Revan left the infrastructure of the Republic intact and waged a war of conversion, not destruction.

I think if Obsidian ever made KotOR III, they should ignore the novel and the MMO. Make the game about searching for whatever it was that lead Revan to the true Sith in the first place. Find the true Sith and help Revan and the Exile defeat them for good. The end.

Not likely, but if it's any consolation, there are at least two major K3 mods in production right now.

We'll murder them all, amid laughter and merriment...except for the few we take home to experiment!

I know, and I take my metaphorical hat off to those who have worked on them. However, I must say, the dialogue in TJM is... well let's just say it's no Obsidian. If I was a filthy rich guy I'd freaking fund these projects myself. Maybe tweak the stories, up the standard of the dialogue and voice acting and add more content to make it feel like a real KotOR game. I'd love to see a mod done based on Jediphile's plot. That would be mind blowing.

I don't know about TLC but I am not saying that they retconned everything. They kept some of the general things in there but others were utterly retconned. For example, the exile's background is a pretty big thing to ignore, but saying she is a normal jedi is a big mistake, because anybody who has played kotor II knows that she isn't a normal force user. A

Please read my post

Not sure why that's addressed at me, but I was talking to the original poster.

I think he knows it was addressed at me. I said myself I didn't mean they ignored TSL in the literal sense of the word, but they may as well have, as they turfed their major themes out the window, as I've explained in previous posts and as Bob the builder has.

Actually if we listen to Kreia in TSL (and in case you're going to give me any malarkey about TOR somehow invalidating the events of TSL, please explain exactly how it does so), then Revan turned to the dark side on his own while fighting the Mandalorian Wars, where he made it part of his strategies to deliberately have Jedi and Republic leaders not loyal to him killed off and use exposure to the horrors of war to corrupt his followers. The only change TOR makes in this regard is that Vitiate made him a Sith, not a dark-sider (and even then, we have room to believe that Revan declared himself a Sith Lord anyway before that upon finding the Trayus Academy).

The problem with the new canon is that when you read Revan novel it doesn't seem Revan is even aware of Trayus. The novel shows Revan as a Jedi until he met the Emperor, and that was after the battle of M5 when he shouldn't have been one. Then he is portrayed as a victim of the Emperor, poor soul who was brainwashed into being evil Sith Lord... (Revan novel points to this iirc, not to what you have said)

While K2 tells us about a guy who witnessed horrors of war, those affected him in such a way he become more Sith than anything, and was so full of himself thanks to recent victory that he believed he could protect ppl from greater evil.

That is what is irking me about new canon among other things, Drew simply couldn't live with the fact his character was not portrayed as somebody 100% good but quite the opposite so he needed to change it. So now, Revan was brainwashed into being Sith, and MSG was Exile's fault...

Drew isn't a bad writer, but he should have stayed with Mass Effect. He just isn't a good writer for the Star Wars canon

I disagree. In my opinion he is a good game screenwriter but a bad book writer.

Just like Lucas. He has great ideas, but it would be better if he had passed them to someone for polish, and that is what has happened when he was at Bioware. Being lead writer he didn't write story details, nor dialogs, he was concerned with bigger picture and that is what he does well.

Can we get a consensus that Revan and the exile's fate were written for the sole purpose of marketing the very loose tie-in mmo? Their character arcs were pretty hastily undermined and brushed away for the purpose of introducing a new set of villains for The Old Republic. I don't see another interpretation unless you start grasping for straws.

"Everything I tell you is a lie. Every question I ask you is a trick. You will find no truth in me."
―Vergere to Jacen Solo

Can we get a consensus that Revan and the exile's fate were written for the sole purpose of marketing the very loose tie-in mmo? Their character arcs were pretty hastily undermined and brushed away for the purpose of introducing a new set of villains for The Old Republic. I don't see another interpretation unless you start grasping for straws.

Thats the feeling I have. Theres no way to know for sure of course. Its safe to say Drew Karpyshyn wasn't thinking "I'm writing this story as a way to market a new video game" as he wrote it, but I'm sure that's why it was ordered....

Personally, I don't understand why they didn't just finish the trilogy and THEN make an MMO to continue the story/make oodles of money. I have a feeling TOR isn't the last we've seen of the franchise though.

Their character arcs ended at the closing credits of KotOR and TSL respectively.

I loved TSL and KotOR was about the best video game ever its first playthrough, but neither is 1/1000 the video game TOR is. Jedi Knight story is as close to the KotOR feeling that you can get, but it is so much more. As much as I love TSL, the game has a major flaw in making Revan way more important than he/she should have ever been made. Not crazy about the way Revan was portrayed in TOR, but it is widely better than his/her portrayal in TSL.

As to the Exile, yes she is largely ignored, but I like it that way. That was my character and I hate when others try to go back and tell her motivations. I really wished they would have handle Revan in more of the same way. That said, the Exile is not completely ignored in the game. I thought what was in the Jedi Knight's companion story was very well done and the same can be said about a codex.

Perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew. The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil."

Kreia's character and much of what she said sucked and undermined the original game and much of what is great about the SW universe.

The stupid idea that Revan never "truly" fell to the dark side cheapens the original game and its important moment of revelation.

Their character arcs ended at the closing credits of KotOR and TSL respectively.

While I'll admit Revan's was pretty much closed at the end of KotOR I, the Exile's character arc didn't end with KotOR II. We were left with the Ebon Hawk flying off to find Revan, which meant that the Exile still had some story to go. And, the-off-to-find-Revan ending of KotOR II reopened Revan's story, adding the mystery of what happened to him/her and why he/she left everyone behind and went to the Unknown Regions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

I loved TSL and KotOR was about the best video game ever its first playthrough, but neither is 1/1000 the video game TOR is. Jedi Knight story is as close to the KotOR feeling that you can get, but it is so much more. As much as I love TSL, the game has a major flaw in making Revan way more important than he/she should have ever been made. Not crazy about the way Revan was portrayed in TOR, but it is widely better than his/her portrayal in TSL.

I disagree with this as well. Just because TOR has more storylines, more quests and a longer total gameplay time doesn't mean it's a better game than KotOR I or II. Also, Revan's handling in TOR sucked. All the player's actions were ignored and Revan essentially just fell to the dark side. I don't see how Revan getting a purpose in KotOR II that was beyond the general "I'm a bad guy and want to destroy the Republic and conquer the galaxy" that he/she originally had is a poor handling of him/her. It's not like they said Revan was the best Jedi ever. In fact, if Revan and Darth Nihlius were to fight Revan would probably lose, seeing as Nihlius feeds on the Force.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

As to the Exile, yes she is largely ignored, but I like it that way. That was my character and I hate when others try to go back and tell her motivations. I really wished they would have handle Revan in more of the same way. That said, the Exile is not completely ignored in the game. I thought what was in the Jedi Knight's companion story was very well done and the same can be said about a codex.

I would much rather have had Revan ignored, similar to the Exile. However, neither of them were completely ignored. They were thrown in there as pawns to reinforce what happened in the Revan novel. The thing that was ignored was their true base characters (that is to say, the player's choices as those characters) and the overarching plot of KotOR II.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellator

Kreia's character and much of what she said sucked and undermined the original game and much of what is great about the SW universe.

How did it undermine what is great about KotOR 1 and the Star Wars universe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellator

The stupid idea that Revan never "truly" fell to the dark side cheapens the original game and its important moment of revelation.

How so? The importance of the revelation was that the Jedi council had lied to you, and you were really a former Dark Lord of the Sith who had ignored the Council, betrayed the Republic and committed atrocities. Just because Revan didn't have the "I'm evil and thus want to take over the galaxy" motive behind his actions doesn't cheapen the revelation on anyway. In fact it adds a nice twist on things, adding more mystery to Revan and portraying him as a villain who had a reason to conquer the galaxy, instead of just doing so for powers' sake.

The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.

Saying that Revan was better off without TSL's insight into him is a fallacy.

Kreia's discussions with the PC about Revan was like we were talking to Revan ourself. We never really knew what happened post-mandalorian wars. The idea that Revan fell to prevent a greater evil is an example of how deep this show can go. People want to stick with the OT idea that Dark Side and Light side are black and white, and TSL exposed that. It showed the flaws of the Dark Side, and the Light, yet the strength of mastering both.

I take TSL's intake of Revan anyday over a generic power-hungry tyrant that is what is hot. A grey-side of the dark/light dichotomy is much appreciated. However, since Bioware wanted to dust that idea, they brought back the stupid "Revan sought to conquer the galaxy for power" ****.

TOR in itself would have made a great singleplayer game, but it fails as an MMO. If it hadn't even mentioned Revan I would have been happier, but fact is that they decided to ruin one of the best characters of the saga. There are people who should realize that Revan is not a god, but you can't say he's an average force user either.

And neither am I. That is my entire point. Revan/Exile are our individual characters, we were the one playing hours on ending leveling through KotOR and TSL. We made the choices with what to do with our character. Sorry Fallen Guardian and The Lord of Chaos, but my Revan was a flawed character full of remorse for what she had done to the galaxy. She fell to the darkside in her quest for knowledge.

I would also like to point out TOR isn’t the first time Revan was portrayed as a pawn for a stronger entity. What was the plot for the entire story of KotOR, Jedi Council capture Revan, gives her new memories and has her save the galaxy under false pretenses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen Guardian

the Exile's character arc didn't end with KotOR II. We were left with the Ebon Hawk flying off to find Revan, which meant that the Exile still had some story to go.

Sorry disagree. What was The Sith Lords about? The Sith Lords?

At the end of TSL you have 3 dead Sith Lords, kind of ends that arc in the story. Looking at it from the light side story, the Exile had regained his/her ability to feel the force, destroyed the Sith Lords threat, all four of them, and founded the start of the new and hopefully improved Jedi order. Also people keep forgetting that following Revan into the Unknown Region is the Exile’s choice. My Exile spent the rest of her life living in the penthouse of the Jedi temple stoned on death sticks and spice. Why would she go chasing after Revan after he/she betrayed her at Malacor V at the end of the Mandalorian wars?

Oh yeah, Revan didn’t fall to the darkside, yet scarified some of the republic’s best troops, for no other reason than they were loyal to the Republic and not him/her. Yeah, no sign of darkside or character flaws with that playable character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen Guardian

that is to say, the player's choices as those characters

Yes that is true, but no matter what BioWare did in TOR or even in a KotOR 3, they would have done the exact same thing. Because there is no way for them to make a game that took all the choices and motivations of all the players behind Revan or the Exile into account.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen Guardian

How did it undermine what is great about KotOR 1 and the Star Wars universe?

Did you even play the game or listen to what she said, or did you just skip that?

Kreia said something to the effect that Revan went darkside to save the galaxy. Can we agree with that?

Well that goes against much of what Yoda has to say.

““Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

“To answer power with power, the Jedi way this is not. In this war, a danger there is, of losing who we are.”

“Stopped they must be; on this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now - if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did - you will become an agent of evil.”

“Yoda: Yes, run! Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.
Luke: But tell my why I can't...
Yoda: No, no! There is no "why".”

So yeah, not really sure how being evil to do good fits in the star wars universe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Saget

Saying that Revan was better off without TSL's insight into him is a fallacy.

If that is directed at me, then I did not say that. I did mean Kreia took it too far, but we have to remember Kreia is a manipulator and was not above lying or stretching the truth to steer the Exile in the direction she wanted. She may have been overstating Revan’s power to motivate the Exile to a higher level. If you are going to take Kreia for gospel, then you have to admit, the Exile is a stronger Jedi than Revan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Saget

TOR in itself would have made a great singleplayer game, but it fails as an MMO.

Games are a matter of opinion, TOR is a great game in my opinion. I could careless what you want to classify it as. Have no clue about other MMO's, but I am having a blast playing endgame stuff with friends in TOR.

Yeah, my Guardian has been 50 for months and I still haven't gotten around to finishing Scourge's storyline. I think he's at about halfway. But ya know, that just means I just dont care. Revan just dosen't mean anything to me.

Which is where I think I kinda fall in with the majority of the people that play TOR, they aren't up in arms about the Revan/Exile thing. Because they dont care. Revan is not the God-end-all-be-all of the story that the KotOR fans made him out to be. It's just alot of people that came from WoW or other games and had no knowledge of that character and could care less. Just playing and having fun. Which is what I'd like to think it's really about.
TOR is a great/very fun game. For me anyway (and Mim too apparently).
But ya know, I'm not butthurt, so...

And neither am I. That is my entire point. Revan/Exile are our individual characters, we were the one playing hours on ending leveling through KotOR and TSL. We made the choices with what to do with our character. Sorry Fallen Guardian and The Lord of Chaos, but my Revan was a flawed character full of remorse for what she had done to the galaxy. She fell to the darkside in her quest for knowledge.

I don't see how this relates? I said I disagreed that TOR was far superior to KotOR I and KotOR II and I said Revan wasn't made infinitely important, as you said that he/she was. The fact that they're our own characters doesn't play into the fact that you said KotOR II over-hyped Revan... which it didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

I would also like to point out TOR isn’t the first time Revan was portrayed as a pawn for a stronger entity. What was the plot for the entire story of KotOR, Jedi Council capture Revan, gives her new memories and has her save the galaxy under false pretenses.

I don't necessarily dislike the story of Revan being a pawn of Vitiate. I dislike how they took Revan, made a stock, boring canon version of our character, and then worked him into TOR so they'd actually have something in there that was related to the two KotOR games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

Sorry disagree. What was The Sith Lords about? The Sith Lords?

At the end of TSL you have 3 dead Sith Lords, kind of ends that arc in the story. Looking at it from the light side story, the Exile had regained his/her ability to feel the force, destroyed the Sith Lords threat, all four of them, and founded the start of the new and hopefully improved Jedi order. Also people keep forgetting that following Revan into the Unknown Region is the Exile’s choice. My Exile spent the rest of her life living in the penthouse of the Jedi temple stoned on death sticks and spice. Why would she go chasing after Revan after he/she betrayed her at Malacor V at the end of the Mandalorian wars?

The game was focused on the Sith Lords, yes. But there is also the underlying plot of the true Sith returning at some point. Also, in the end of KotOR II, we see the Ebon Hawk flying off into the Unknown Regions to go after Revan. Whether your Exile wanted to or not is of no consequence - the game takes over at that point, with no player choice in the matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

Oh yeah, Revan didn’t fall to the darkside, yet scarified some of the republic’s best troops, for no other reason than they were loyal to the Republic and not him/her. Yeah, no sign of darkside or character flaws with that playable character.

Uhhhh.... I never said Revan didn't fall to the dark side, or wasn't evil. I just said he had a better reason for his attempted conquest of the Republic than most villains do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

Yes that is true, but no matter what BioWare did in TOR or even in a KotOR 3, they would have done the exact same thing. Because there is no way for them to make a game that took all the choices and motivations of all the players behind Revan or the Exile into account.

True, they could never fully take into account all the possible motivations and decisions. However, they did something similar with Mass Effect, hell they even did it somewhat in KotOR II. Even just having the most basic, largest decisions in KotOR I and II be carried over would have been better than what we got.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

Did you even play the game or listen to what she said, or did you just skip that?

Well, if I'd skipped that part I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

Kreia said something to the effect that Revan went darkside to save the galaxy. Can we agree with that?

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

Well that goes against much of what Yoda has to say.

““Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

“To answer power with power, the Jedi way this is not. In this war, a danger there is, of losing who we are.”

“Stopped they must be; on this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now - if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did - you will become an agent of evil.”

“Yoda: Yes, run! Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.
Luke: But tell my why I can't...
Yoda: No, no! There is no "why".”

So yeah, not really sure how being evil to do good fits in the star wars universe.

Who cares what Yoda says? Yoda's teaching HIS and the JEDI'S philosophy to Luke. Last time I checked, the Jedi weren't the only group in the galaxy with their own ideas. Just because what Revan did disagreed with what Yoda believed, doesn't mean it disagrees with every facet of the Star Wars Universe.

The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.

Also, in the end of KotOR II, we see the Ebon Hawk flying off into the Unknown Regions to go after Revan. Whether your Exile wanted to or not is of no consequence - the game takes over at that point, with no player choice in the matter.

Kreia says your can't take your companions with you into the Unknown Region, so what happened at the end of TSL, you are flying into the Unknown Region. What did the Exile do, kick the companions off the ship after they rescued her and then let them blow up with the planet? How do you know it was the Unknown Region? Did I miss a space roadsign or something?

Makes perfect sense to me to just fly off into the Unknown Region on a ship that just crashed with only emergency repairs done to it.

My ship was flying to a vacation, I think the Exile deserved it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen Guardian

doesn't mean it disagrees with every facet of the Star Wars Universe.

Going to ignore the rest because of this statment. Where did I write it disagrees with EVERY facet? Hint I didn't.

Kreia says your can't take you companions with you into the Unknown Region, so what happened at the end of TSL, you are flying into the Unknown Region. What did the Exile do, kick the companions off the ship after they rescued her and the let them blow up with the planet? How do you know it was the Unknown Region? Did I miss a space roadsign or something?

No, you didn't miss a roadsign. I may have been wrong saying that it completely ended with them flying into the Unknown Regions (that's just how I've always seen it) but it's a somewhat foregone conclusion by the end of the game that the Exile's going out there sooner or later to find Revan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

Going to ignore the rest because of this statment. Where did I write it disagrees with EVERY facet? Hint I didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

So yeah, not really sure how being evil to do good fits in the star wars universe.

You said this right? You said it doesn't fit in with the Star Wars universe, after quoting Yoda a bunch of times. Meaning, you said it disagreed with Star Wars in its entirety, which would mean every facet.

The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.

You said what Revan did does not "fit in the star wars universe." To me, the Star Wars Universe refers to Star Wars as a whole, meaning EVERY FACET of Star Wars. So, for you to say that means what Revan did is in disagreement with EVERY FACET of Star Wars. Perhaps you don't think of the term "the Star Wars Universe" as meaning anything and everything Star Wars, but that's generally the way I've seen it used.

And what you wrote was no more specific. I quoted you exactly. If you look up at the post where I also quoted all of your Yoda quotes, I addressed every part of you said in regards to the topic of Revan's motivation being for something good destroys the Star Wars Universe. You asked if I'd actually listened to Kreia talk about that in-game, which I said I did. You asked if we could agree that Kreia said Revan went to the dark side to save the galaxy, I agreed. You then posted that this disagrees with what Yoda said, and so therefore you're not really sure of how it fits in the Star Wars Universe.

The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.

You said that doing evil for the sake of good, did not fit into the Star Wars universe (which you shakily backed up with quotes from Yoda, a known Jedi master and ultimate believer in Jedi philosophy). And we have already agreed Revan did evil for the sake of good. Thus, by your statement, Revan's actions do not fit into the Star Wars Universe. Therefore, Revan's actions disagree with every facet of Star Wars, according to what you said.

The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.

I never agreed Revan did evil for the sake of good, I wrote, that is what Keria said, a known lair and manipulator
.
And I never jump to any of the conclusions you atributed to me. I wrote what I wrote, no need to add to it and fill in the blanks.

And I never jump to any of the conclusions you atributed to me. I wrote what I wrote, no need to add to it and fill in the blanks.

My logic is this: You said that doing a to achieve b violates the Star Wars Universe. So, by your statement, Revan's actions, when he/she did a to achieve b, violate the Star Wars Universe. Sounds a lot like 2 + 2 = 4 to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

I never agreed Revan did evil for the sake of good, I wrote, that is what Keria wrote, a known lair and manipulator.

Okay, that is what you said. However, you also went beyond that, as shown below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

If that is directed at me, then I did not say that. I did mean Kreia took it too far, but we have to remember Kreia is a manipulator and was not above lying or stretching the truth to steer the Exile in the direction she wanted. She may have been overstating Revan’s power to motivate the Exile to a higher level. If you are going to take Kreia for gospel, then you have to admit, the Exile is a stronger Jedi than Revan.

Yeah, Kreia's a liar and a manipulator, but what motive could she have for telling the Exile that a war, that he/she wasn't even aware of until talking to Atton on Peragus, had a more noble intention behind it than what the public knew. This doesn't really help steer the Exile in any direction.

Also, if I did take Kreia's word as gospel I'd have no qualms over saying the Exile is a stronger Jedi than Revan. Heck, it's not too far fetched for me to say it even without me taking Kreia's every word as fact.

The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.