foodblogger, I really think you have just discovered why some of us are so crazy about Neapolitan style pizzas made with Caputo flour. All of the characteristics that you are describing I consider to be quite normal for even a "short" rise Caputo dough. There is no question that it is MUCH more flavorful than the normal American style flours I have put it up against. In fact, even when mixing in 20% KASL with the Caputo I notice a big loss of flavor.

Marco, correct me if I am wrong, but I have been told that in Naples (where the pizza is OUT OF THIS WORLD just about every where you go) it is actually quite common to do 7-8 hour room temp rises with fresh yeast. A friend of mine was lucky enough to observe the dough mixing/management at one of the absolute top rated pizzerias in Naples and they were only doing a 7 hour rise. I found this suprising, but he even preferred this pizzeria with the shorter rise and fresh yeast to the most famous pizzeria that is known to do a 20 hour room temp rise with a starter. The chemical make up of this flour is such that you can do a 7 hour room temp rise and have more than exceptional results that in my opinion blow away even a 6 day fridge rise with American flour. I have been making IDY/Caputo doughs for the past 6 batches, and while the 20 hour room temp rise is better, the difference is much less pronounced than I thought it would be between this and the final product when I do a 20 hour rise with less yeast, or a three day cold rise.

The thing that is tricky about Caputo flour is that especially at lower temperatures doughs can easily be made tough or cracker like. Caputo does not seem to tolerate slight errors while mixing the dough. Foodbloger, I think your early success in your experimentation with Caputo is a testament to your skills and knowledge as a pizzaiolo. You obviously have excellent technique, and I think your experience with this four was no accident.

The main reason I started to write on this forum is to address misleading information on Pizza Napoletana, the traditional methods as well as some modern variation. My objective has never been to teach someone to reproduce the pizza me and other Neapolitan masters produce in Naples because I believe that this cannot be achieved behind a keyboard. Having say that, I often read my "theories" or citations, and not always these are reported correctly and/or attributed to the real source, or again with completely wrong informations. Once again I feel the need to really make some clarity:

4) This may be a question for pizzanapoletana - if a poolish is used in Naples (are they?) do they subject the dough to an additional rise after combining the remaining ingredients?

This is perhaps best left to pizzanapoletana to answer but when I researched the matter some time ago I did find references to what appeared to be use of sponges or possibly a poolish, but the fermentation time was quite short, about an hour or two if memory serves me correct.

Peter

Poolish or wet sponges have never been used in Naples for pizza. The only application for that technique in Naples is for a dessert called Rum Baba, of Polish origins. Poolish is indeed used from Rome to North, but NOT in Naples.

Also, I should point out that when doing the shorter 7 hour rise times there is no need (or time even) to do the two stage fermentation that Marco reccomends for the longer fermentation doughs.

Scott, on what basis do you think that for a shorter fermentation there is no need for the 2 stages? I won't tell you the reasons (which are indeed very important for the final results), but I would like to point out that even in the disciplinare document (that I do not support anyway), where the minimum fermentation is 6 hours, this is divided in 2 stages....

It is common unfortunatelly for many places to do a 6-8 rise, but the results are on your stomach fo many more hours... They also use often a mix of flour that would actually require a very long fermentation/maturation. Please do share which pizzeria woulld produce a better dough then the famous long rises ones. I also hope your friend that withness this process and report it back to you is not the same person I think of, because I believe he doesn't have the experience nor the knowledge to make such a judgment... and if he is the one, the process he witness is not the typical one, but is what they call quick dough (and they do prefer the longer fermentation).

I am sorry if I just reply now to the above messages, but I was just searching for something else and I came across those.

All of the characteristics that you are describing I consider to be quite normal for even a "short" rise Caputo dough. There is no question that it is MUCH more flavorful than the normal American style flours I have put it up against. In fact, even when mixing in 20% KASL with the Caputo I notice a big loss of flavor.

It was truly an amazing experience like I said. I was not expecting the beer flavor to the crust and that is one aspect I am trying to figure out. The other thing that was completely new to me was the texture. Every time I have made a pie with large and variable sized voids in the rim it has ended up with basically the same texture. Nice and chewy to make a nice foldable slice. The Cuputo dough had the large variable sized voids, but the texture wasn't chewy. It was a completely different experience. I am not saying that one is better than the other, just different. Is that texture also characteristic of the Caputo flours?

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The chemical make up of this flour is such that you can do a 7 hour room temp rise and have more than exceptional results that in my opinion blow away even a 6 day fridge rise with American flour.

I have come to that conclusion as well. The flour has evolved over several hundred years to be able to produce a pizza that people in Naples think is best using techniques that are possible and profitable in Naples. I like the flour because it is not a flour that I have extensive experience with and working with it is a new adventure.

Poolish or wet sponges have never been used in Naples for pizza. The only application for that technique in Naples is for a dessert called Rum Baba, of Polish origins. Poolish is indeed used from Rome to North, but NOT in Naples.

Pizzanapoletana, thank you very much for the information.

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I won't tell you the reasons (which are indeed very important for the final results), but I would like to point out that even in the disciplinare document (that I do not support anyway), where the minimum fermentation is 6 hours, this is divided in 2 stages....

By 2 stages do you mean let the dough rise in a batch, then divide into balls and let rise separately for an additional amount of time?

It is common unfortunatelly for many places to do a 6-8 rise, but the results are on your stomach fo many more hours... They also use often a mix of flour that would actually require a very long fermentation/maturation. Please do share which pizzeria woulld produce a better dough then the famous long rises ones. I also hope your friend that withness this process and report it back to you is not the same person I think of, because I believe he doesn't have the experience nor the knowledge to make such a judgment... and if he is the one, the process he witness is not the typical one, but is what they call quick dough (and they do prefer the longer fermentation).

It was not really my intention to say that the pizzeria using short fermentation dough was definitively better than the pizzeria using a long one. I am just echoing the feelings of a fellow forum member who I will let come up to post here if he decides to do so. I definitely prefer the longer fermentation myself, but I do find it surprising the quality that can be achieved with a short fermentation with this amazing flour.

Observations:1) The dough ball from the bag did smell more fermented but when baked, both pizzas had a beer taste and one wasn't any better or worse than the other.2) After I finished kneading the dough I again noticed that the Caputo dough balls at 60.6% felt as wet as my bread flour doughs at 66%. In fact they felt almost identical in terms of the tackyness of the dough.3) The crust of both pizzas was exactly like it was the last time I made this formula. Large, varied voids in the rim with a crispness on the bottom but still easily foldable. Neither pie was chewy.4) Both dough balls wanted to spring back during the stretching process, the same as the last time I made this formula. Resting for a while between steps is necessary at least in my hands. 5) I tried a new kind of tomatoes which I will avoid in the future. I went to Whole Paycheck looking for Italbrand DOP tomatoes and instead found Cento 'San Marzano Variety' tomatoes. Although the tomatoes were delicious, the sauce was too runny when baked. Those tomatoes would be perfect for marinara as the flavor was delicious. Not for pizza without some draining.

I assume that you punched down or reshaped the dough at some point during the 8 hours and that you used the same bake protocol you last used. Is that correct? I assume also that you used 14" as the pizza size.

I made a batch of dough according to the above formula. I did an 8 hour room temperature rise, using the same processing steps mentioned above to make the dough. I made enough dough for 2 pizzas of the 14 inch size with tf 0.1. I let the dough rise in a bowl covered with plastic wrap. It took 4 and 1/2 hours to double. At that time I divided the dough into two equal balls and let each ball rise in its own ziplock bag. I baked one pizza on a stone and the other on a screen on the middle rack. Below is a picture of the stone baked pizza.

Observations:1) The pies were drastically different even though they came from the same batch of dough. The stone baked pie had much better oven spring and cooked faster. It also had large and various sized bubbles in the rim, which the screen baked pizza lacked.2) I have been having a consistant problem with the Caputo based doughs - the center of the skins is much much thinner than the edges and leads to a crust in the center that is too thin for my tastes. I have never had this problem with bread flour based doughs and I am not sure how to avoid it. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

You might try using a slightly larger thickness factor or a smaller pizza size. The only other thing I can think of offhand is to work the dough more toward the edges to avoid a thin center. Was there a textural difference in the center of the crust--like a crackery texture?

How did the pizzas taste and what were the main differences between the stone baked and screen baked pizzas?

You might try using a slightly larger thickness factor or a smaller pizza size.

I think I might try a pizza or two that is a little thicker.

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The only other thing I can think of offhand is to work the dough more toward the edges to avoid a thin center.

That is what I do but it seems like when the dough stretches it wants to stretch more in the center than on the outside. I'll have to work more on my technique.

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Was there a textural difference in the center of the crust--like a crackery texture?

It was cracker crisp and paper thin. It was easily overwhelmed by the toppings.

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How did the pizzas taste and what were the main differences between the stone baked and screen baked pizzas?

Both pizzas tasted similar to what i have been getting from this formulation and a same day rise. There was a nice fermentation taste - a little like beer. The main difference I noticed was that the crust baked on the stone had large and different sized voids in the rim, while the bubbles in the screen baked crust were smaller and more uniform in size.

Don't get me wrong. Despite the shortcomings both pizzas were excellent and got gobbled immediately.