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Hello friends,

I have a specific question related to modifiers.Need some help in understanding more about the relative pronoun "THAT" in the below construction.

Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of the historic program in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what the two women wereresponsible for.

My question is can that refer to a list? (In this case public employment, relief and social security)??Is this sort of construction acceptable on the GMAT?

Also when can a comma precede a THAT in a sentence? example - "Large manufacturing companies such as ferrari, THAT"

Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink]

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29 Apr 2013, 22:09

chechaxo wrote:

Hello friends,

I have a specific question related to modifiers.Need some help in understanding more about the relative pronoun "THAT" in the below construction.

Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of the historic program in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what the two women wereresponsible for.

My question is can that refer to a list? (In this case public employment, relief and social security)??Is this sort of construction acceptable on the GMAT?

Also when can a comma precede a THAT in a sentence? example - "Large manufacturing companies such as ferrari, THAT"

Please help..

Thanks,Chechaxo

As to your first question, I am curious the answer myself. This is related: click (answer of Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:28 am).

As to your second question: Comma can precede a "that", when the "that" opens a non-essential modifier (NEM). The entire NEM should be flanked by commas, just as an essential modifier (EM) must not be. However, Manhattan SC advises that GMAC will use "that" for essential, and "which" for non-essential modifiers in most cases. Nevertheless, the use of commas in NEM/EM is superior to the choice between "that" and "which", as the latter is disputable.
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I have a specific question related to modifiers.Need some help in understanding more about the relative pronoun "THAT" in the below construction.

Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of the historic program in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what the two women wereresponsible for.

My question is can that refer to a list? (In this case public employment, relief and social security)??Is this sort of construction acceptable on the GMAT?

Also when can a comma precede a THAT in a sentence? example - "Large manufacturing companies such as ferrari, THAT"

Please help..

Thanks,Chechaxo

Looking at the question above, the correct answer does not use that: "Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible." The phrase "For which" (in place of that) above refers to the historic programs and the prepositional phrase "in public employment, relief and social security" provides additional detail on the historic programs.

About the comma preceding 'that', your example includes a non-essential phrase, which should be set off by commas, before that. It should read - "Large manufacturing companies, such as Ferrari, that..." In that case, they commas are related to the non-essential phrase, not that.

Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink]

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30 Apr 2013, 07:38

Thanks HumptyDumpty and KyleWiddison,

I am clear about my second question on the use of " Comma + That".HumptyDumpty, from what i learn from Kyles response the comma structure before the that refers to the NEM.

For example in the sentence - "one will encounter more women wearing pants than wearing skirts, yet it was only two or three generations ago, in 1945, that actress Marlene Dietrich was forced by police to leave Paris for daring to wear

- that modifies generations ago while the "," before the that intends to demarcate the NEM "in 1985".

KyleWiddison, Please correct me if i am wrong.

Kylewiddson, HumptyDumpty,However i am not still clear on whether "that" can refer to a list.Please can you clarify with an example?

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I am clear about my second question on the use of " Comma + That".HumptyDumpty, from what i learn from Kyles response the comma structure before the that refers to the NEM.

For example in the sentence - "one will encounter more women wearing pants than wearing skirts, yet it was only two or three generations ago, in 1945, that actress Marlene Dietrich was forced by police to leave Paris for daring to wear

- that modifies generations ago while the "," before the that intends to demarcate the NEM "in 1985".

KyleWiddison, Please correct me if i am wrong.

Kylewiddson, HumptyDumpty,However i am not still clear on whether "that" can refer to a list.Please can you clarify with an example?

Thanks,Chechaxo

Chechaxo-

You are correct about 'that' modifying 'generations ago' and the commas creating the non-essential modifier.

'That' (when acting as a noun modifier) and 'which' will modify the closest noun, so 'that'/'which' will not modify an entire list (without some extra effort). Here is an example: I went to the store, the restaurant, and the ice cream shop that recently opened. The clause "that recently opened" attaches to the closest noun, which is 'ice cream shop'. We could move the clause around to modify the different elements. I went to the store, the restaurant that recently opened, and the ice cream shop. Here, only the restaurant is modified. If we wanted to modify all three we have to be a bit more creative. I went to the store, the restaurant, and the ice cream shop, all of which were recently opened. [I don't really like that construction at all and wouldn't expect to see it on the GMAT].

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During the course of my preparation many a times, I came across the structures -"For Which", "In Which", "From Which"....

My question - Just like "WHICH", do "FOR WHICH", "IN WHICH" and "FROM WHICH" have to modify the NOUN immediately preceding these constructions?

Please, can someone explain with an example?

Thanks in Advance.Chechaxo

Chechaxo-Yes, it's the same situation with these variations of 'which'. Here are some examples:

The Forbidden City in Beijing, from which the emperors ruled by heavenly mandate...The Declaration of Independence, in which the American Colonies declare independence from Great Britian...

The 'which' still modifies the preceding noun, there is just the inclusion of a preposition that is necessary for proper meaning. If you said, "the Forbidden City in Beijing, which the emperors ruled by heavenly mandate" the meaning changes from Beijing being the capital city of the emperors to Beijing being the only area under the rule of the emperors.

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Re: Question on use of "THAT" relative pronoun as modifiers [#permalink]

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27 Jun 2014, 13:08

'That' (when acting as a noun modifier) and 'which' will modify the closest noun, so 'that'/'which' will not modify an entire list (without some extra effort). Here is an example: I went to the store, the restaurant, and the ice cream shop that recently opened. The clause "that recently opened" attaches to the closest noun, which is 'ice cream shop'. We could move the clause around to modify the different elements. I went to the store, the restaurant that recently opened, and the ice cream shop. Here, only the restaurant is modified. If we wanted to modify all three we have to be a bit more creative. I went to the store, the restaurant, and the ice cream shop, all of which were recently opened. [I don't really like that construction at all and wouldn't expect to see it on the GMAT].

KW[/quote]

Dear,I think word - the store, the restaurant, and the ice cream shop are in parallel; so, the relative clause will modify all three equally, and every time to check this out, we have to go with the context. Same logic governs with preposition or any such modifiers ( The king and the queen of Roman ).