I'm looking for opinion so I'm throwing this question out to the forum. Who needs to back down at this stage of the conflict? Israel or Hizbollah? We have a lot of top notch thinkers in the forum so I'm looking forward to some good dialogue.

Rypht

07-16-2006, 05:35 PM

Back down? This is superbowl time! Get the popcorn and watch Israel slap Hizbollah around. What really needs to happen is either the rest of the world shuts up with it's whining or they get behind the proper side. The only reason they haven't condemned Hizbollah is they're afraid of the terrorists coming after them for speaking up.

black campbell

07-16-2006, 05:58 PM

Agree to a cease fire and get bombed. Offer 95% of what the other side wants, and get bombed. Pull back from territory given to you won fair and square in a war, and get bombed. Pull back from territory given to you by the precious UN in '48...and get bombed. Feel guilty about the fact you're living in an area where your ancestors did, and get bombed...

Screw Hezb al'Allah.

As for the Arabs -- if they cared so much about the plight of the Palestinians, why did they not give up some territory for them...say, the Suez? Why not offer them citizenship in Jordan or Lebanon, instead of making them live in camps on the border? What was the first thing the Israelis did in 1948? (hint: offer the Palestinians citizenship, so long as they recognized the legitimacy of the country...)

Lastly, this is not some isolated event. This is part of a larger movement by Islam -- not the radicals. Not just Iran. Islam -- to convert the world. Don't believe me? Try living in the Middle East for 2 years...these guys don't view the Jews, nor the HIndus, nor the Christians as human. They'll lie, claim abuse, and whine about how we just don't understand. It's BS; this is about submission to their religion and its socio-political control. The reason we see terrorism is they perceive weakness in the West: dhimmis in Europe, Russia playing both sides off each other, the UN is powerless, and they thought we'd back down after 1993 WTC and Somalia. Israel's been playing nice-nice since 1990, so they think they'll simple fold if pushed.

I think Israel should take the gloves off -- take Lebanon. Take Syria. Don't stop. I think we should stay out for now, but I'm willing to go back into service, if we're serious about winning this. (We're not...)

EARS

07-16-2006, 06:02 PM

The Hizbollah have only felt Israel's "kid gloves" so far. They need to wake up and smell the roses, before Israel really get ticked off and then the only thing they will be able to smell is the deposits in their shorts.

jeff4952

07-16-2006, 09:35 PM

Hizbollah gave israel the perfect excuse to bomb lebanon back into the darkage's agian.
Here's my take, israel will eventually pull out but, not before destroying what infacstructure lebanon had. All the while Hizbollah will claim victory and be too stupid to realise what launching a few rockets at israel cost. I feel the same about gaza. Who cares if they get the two soldiers back( i know that may sound heartless). Hamas totally screwed them selves. They now look even worse to the international community and now israel has an excuse to go in there and start bombing them too. Israel now has the opportunity of trying to undermine the new palestinian government. Not only that, now when israel leaves not only will they have no money coming in they will also have alot of destroyed equipment (ie the million-dollar transformers they blew up).
Hizbollah and Hamas:0
Israel:1

Megatron

07-16-2006, 11:24 PM

Could this be the beginning of World War 3? If both Syria and Iran attack Israel, it will get really ugly.

Also, N. Korea is watching this too.

Rypht

07-17-2006, 12:05 AM

Yea, North Korea has gotta be mad to be out of the spotlight already, the missile launches were essentially a temper tantrum because Iran was getting all the attention, now it's Israel and the pretend nations it's fighting

panzermk2wife

07-17-2006, 01:21 AM

I agree Israel needs to take the kid gloves off and kick some a$$. I also believe the US might step in to "assist" in the near future.

North Korea I am sure will make a big headline soon with another stupid tactic.

Sabian

07-17-2006, 07:51 AM

I agree. Israel has turned the other cheek repeatedly for 15 years during all these "peace talks". I think it's time to crush the opposition and make a serious show of force. I'm talking 100 to 1. For every crap missle these Allah screaming monkies launch I say Israel unleashes Hell in every form.

I wondering when all the foreigners start leaving Icrap/Asscrackastan because they realize they are getting the arse kicked at home.

black campbell

07-17-2006, 01:33 PM

"Allah screaming monkies"? ROTFLMAO!!!

Oh, did I need that.

Medula Oblongata

07-17-2006, 08:21 PM

Agree to a cease fire and get bombed. Offer 95% of what the other side wants, and get bombed. Pull back from territory given to you won fair and square in a war, and get bombed. Pull back from territory given to you by the precious UN in '48...and get bombed. Feel guilty about the fact you're living in an area where your ancestors did, and get bombed...

The fact is that the "Palestenians," Hezb al'allah, and Hammas won't stop killing Jews until there are no Jews left. This is not a war against Israel because Israel is an agressive, opressive nation who wrongfully imprisons Muslims for being Muslim. Israel is a nation that imprisons criminals who murder Israelis. These three groups specifically, and the rest of the Arab world by sentiment, hate Jews just for breathing and will stop at nothing until all are dead. Then the "great satan" (America) is next. Why us? Because we allow free agency. Everyone gets to choose to be christian, muslim, jew, athiest, agnostic, son of satan, etc. To them (muslims) that is unacceptable. Their system of belief does not allow differences of opinion or faith. Either you are one of them, do as they do, or you are the enemy and are to be exterminated.

It would be mass suicide on the part of the Israelis to back down. Were they to do so, instead of utterly crushing their opponents, they will be seen as weak and vulnerable by all other powers in the region. Were that to happen, Israel would suffer constant and unending attacks against their nation that would ultimately end with their complete annihalation.

I for one say that the Jews are committing a "mitzvah" (good deed) by protecting their citizens, and I wish them good fortune. I pray for the protection of God's chosen people. Mazeltov!

As for the Arabs -- if they cared so much about the plight of the Palestinians, why did they not give up some territory for them...say, the Suez? Why not offer them citizenship in Jordan or Lebanon, instead of making them live in camps on the border? What was the first thing the Israelis did in 1948? (hint: offer the Palestinians citizenship, so long as they recognized the legitimacy of the country...)

Most of the "Palestenians" such as Yasser Arafat were once Jordanian citizens (by birth). However, Arafat and his thugs attempted to overthrow the King of Jordan in the 60's and were exhiled along with their followers. Those followers now call themselves "Palestenians" to attempt to apear legidimate. There are very few true Palestenians left in the world, as theirs is a near extinct people. Also, Arafat was exhiled from Egypt due to an attempt to overthrow Anwar Sadat a few years after being exhiled from Jordan. The "Palestenians," Lebanese, Syrians, Iranians, etc. are all bent on one goal, regardless of the cost in lives. To their way of thinking, there are nearly a billion Arabs in the region, and maybe 30 million Jews. Even if 50 Muslims are killed for every Jew murdered, they still win by attrition.

namekid

07-18-2006, 08:40 AM

Actually, historically there is NO SUCH PEOPLES as Palestinians. The whole name was created after the Arabs lost the first war with Israel and a bunch of Arabs left Israel in search of some assistance from their Arab neighbors to take back the land Israel won in the war. Every time Israel fights an Arab Nation, the Arabs lose. The Arabs decided to try this terrorist idea and it has even been accepted by the UN idiots. I think Israel ought to keep shooting and bombing until the only Palestinians left are the ones bowing their heads down to Israeli rule. Funny thing is, when they are not attacking Israel, or the U.S., Arabs are attacking each other.
Islam is FAR from being a Religion of Peace. It is more like a Religion of peicemeal, they get a concession here then try for one over there, trying to nitpick their way into being a world power. It is TIME that we built up our alternate fuels and solar and wind power capabilities to the point of not needing foreign oil, then we can REALLY help Israel and tell the Arab World to got to h#!!.

panzermk2

07-18-2006, 10:54 AM

Time to gas up my Merkava

panzermk2

07-18-2006, 10:57 AM

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/merkava.jpg

jmz5

07-18-2006, 11:42 AM

might need to take out a mortgage to fill that puppy up

EARS

07-18-2006, 11:58 AM

Be glad to chip in for some ammo also.

black campbell

07-18-2006, 12:02 PM

Actually, historically there is NO SUCH PEOPLES as Palestinians.

Wrong. Palestinian, in Arabic, is "filistine." These are the Philistines from the Bible. Historically, they lives in this area. Hence why this was the "Palestinian Mandate" while under British control in the 1920-40s.

panzermk2

07-18-2006, 01:56 PM

might need to take out a mortgage to fill that puppy up
they are good on gas. I love the internaly mounted morter that the loader can use to lob rounds down range when its supporting infantry. Also people who don't know complain about the engine being in front. This is actualy a good thing and desiged from the start to be this way since it provides a massive increase in crew protection. Also the back of it opens and can carry Honecomb style ammo racks or remove the racks in a few minutes and then it can carry up to 4 infantry. The Merkava has to be the best infantry support tank evermade

panzermk2

07-18-2006, 02:29 PM

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/merkava10.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/merkava9.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/merkava4.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/merkava3.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/merkava2.jpg

kamo

07-18-2006, 03:08 PM

panzer, im gonna need you to go get a new pair of undies and wash your hands before posting again... haha

jmz5

07-18-2006, 03:22 PM

haha

RamRod

07-18-2006, 04:42 PM

Hizbollah kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers, so the Jews use this as an reason to invade another country..... Gee, I wonder who they got that idea form. Besides killing 100 or so civillians and 20 or so of their own soldiers, they've also killed 7 Canadians, 5 from one family that was over there for a wedding.... Most times I would agree the Israeli's have the right to fight back, but I'd say they've gone a little over board with this one. Personally I'd just as soon see the "whole" area turned into an molten glass ash tray. Did you ever think, if Israel never existed, we would most likely not have all these problems today, including 9/11....

btown02

07-18-2006, 04:58 PM

Everyone can have their own opinion, and I guess thats yours. I hope you don't mind flames, standby. :D

Rypht

07-18-2006, 07:44 PM

*mounts the flame thrower to the accessory rail on the five-seven*

That's the thing with the Muslims, Israel isn't really the problem, they're just the closest thing to rattle a saber at. Think of Israel as a canary in a coal mine, when the canary dies, all manners of excriment is about to hit the fan, except Israel will put up a hell of a fight before dropping dead.

Everyone, EVERYONE who is not a muslim, is an enemy of the faith. Non-muslims get one single chance to convert, or die very painful deaths, it's what Mohammad did. He sent an invitation to all the kings around his country to join Islam, those that declined, met rather grusome fates. Sure the mellow muslims might not really push the hard line stuff, but it's still the core of their religion whether or not they want to believe it. Then again, it's also alright to lie to a non-muslim, so their promises that they don't believe in it are rather hard to gauge.

If you want to go back in time to the point where something is changed and these problems wouldn't plague us anymore, you're looking at 5500 years ago. The very first war on planet earth happened in that region, it was even before Islamic ideals, they simply hate freedom, that's what the first war was fought over, I'm afraid that's what the last war will be fought over as well.

RamRod

07-18-2006, 10:21 PM

Everyone, EVERYONE who is not a muslim, is an enemy of the faith. Non-muslims get one single chance to convert, or die very painful deaths, it's what Mohammad did. He sent an invitation to all the kings around his country to join Islam, those that declined, met rather grusome fates. Sure the mellow muslims might not really push the hard line stuff, but it's still the core of their religion whether or not they want to believe it. Then again, it's also alright to lie to a non-muslim, so their promises that they don't believe in it are rather hard to gauge.

I seem to remember from history that the Christians did the same to the Jews in Europe a few hundred years ago.... Convert or die.

And I may have gone a little over board with my above rant, but hey, someone needs to stir the pot around here! All the back slaping gets a little boring after a while... :D

Rypht

07-18-2006, 10:34 PM

yes, not just the Jews though, it was everyone else with any kind of independant thinking or different world viewpoint. Conform or die! You know what they say though:

http://members.cox.net/rypht/inquisition.gif

So, totally didn't see that one coming :p However, we can't be held responsible for what a bunch of idiots in robes did hundreds of years ago... but we will hold responsible a bunch of idiots in robes for what they do today!

Medula Oblongata

07-19-2006, 03:09 AM

The Spanish Inquisition actually started in 1478, and did not officially end until until 1843 (although the office of the Grand Inquisitor was open and collecting information on non-christians until 1954). It was not specifically targeted at Jews, but at non-christians of all faiths. Also targeted were christian sects such as Englicans, Greek Orthodox, Puritan, German Ahmish (Duetch Amish) etc.

Back to my point. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it, and the committing of a wrong act by one actor does not give all that come after the right to visit the sins of the father on the children. Were that the case, Kain's children would be fair game for Abel's. (Sidebar, the Bible and Torah both say that Kain and his leneage were cursed with dark skin for his transgression and cast out unto the wilderness of babylon, which is modern day Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc. so the analogy is sound historically speaking). The inquisition predominantly targeted MOORS (black arabs) who had invaded Espania in the middle ages, murdered the christians and jews who were living there, and ran amuk for 500+ years. That Jews, non-christians, and other religions were targeted is uncontestable, but the focus was on the Moors. FYI, although the Catholic church officially sanctioned the Inquisitor, the primary prosecutors of the inquisition were King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella. The Catholic Church routinely appealed to the humanity of Torquemada (First Grand Inquisitor) and finally ex-communicated him for the torture and murder of innocents. Ferdinand and Isabella were also threatened with ex-communication, and were eventually "dis-fellowshiped" for refusing to reign in Torquemada.

I spent a few months 10 years or so ago at the "Holy See" in Vatican City doing research for a thesis paper I was writing on the Inquisition while I was studying at Southern Methodist in Dallas. The Chruch's official position, then and now, was one of embarrasment and regret. No, I am not Catholic even, nor am I an apologist for catholocism, just setting the record strait (I am in fact another christian faith altogether).

Anyway, back on topic. RamRod, your point is completely caprecious. Israel is NOT invading Lebanon (yet) they are returning fire on Hammas and Hezb al' allah positions that have been firing Katusha rockets into Israel (1200 since January), wharehouses where weapons are stored, all buildings that are used to manufacture weapons, and governmental installations that support the enemy. To say that Israels response is not warranted leads me to believe that you have no idea as to what is happening in the middle east. Achmenijad, president of Iran, has been threatening to annihilate Isreal for years now, and the weapons that are being used against Israel are being supplied by Iran. Silkworm anti-ship missles from china are being fired into Israel by Iranian operators. This is the opening volley in an all out war against Isreal by the Arab world; Israel knows this and is making inroads as quickly as possibly to ensure their access to air and sea ports for eventual re-supply by its allies.

Syria has special forces in Lebanon helping the terrorists decide on targets and are providing them with technical support. Israeli civilians are being kidnapped and their heads are being cut off and thrown over the Gaza wall. Soldiers are being poisoned, shot, stabbed, blown up, etc. because the ARAB world hates Jews, and FOR NO OTHER REASON.

Too bad that 7 Canadians died, really. Im sure the Queen will shed a few tears at Nevel Chamberlains memorial this weekend. Its simply a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, an inevidible consequence of war. What were they supposed to do? Stop shooting at a rocket launcher that is killing Israeli's because a few milk-toast canadians are having a wedding party? Hell no! Remember the firebombing of Dresden (where 90% of MY family burned to death), the carpet bombing of Lueneberg, the daylight raids on Berlin, Minuch, Strassbourgh, Cologne, Frankfort, Braunschweig, Bremmershaven, etc etc etc? THOUSANDS of Canadians flew those bombers who were MURDERING a MILLION innocent German civilians by bombing them while they hid in bomb shelters, or while the children were in school!

You hypocrite! How many kidnapped and murdered Canadians would it take before you would consider going to war? A thousand, a million? Where do you draw the line in the sand? Be grateful that you are sitting in your socialist country 5 thousand miles away from where terrorists would rape your wife and daughters while making you watch, and then cut your heads off one by one for sport, simply because you are not one of them. These "people" (I use the term loosely) are modern day Nazi's, and there is only one way to deal with Nazi's. You kill them wherever you find them, whenever you find them. My great-grandfather, his wife and all of their children (save my grandfather who had immigrated to the US) were sent to the Mathausen extermination camp in Austria and murdered for hiding Jews in 1943. My great-grandfather stated before he was shot that it was a "Priveledge to die protecting God's chosen children." Truly their generation was the greatest, and I am thankful that people like you were not the majority then.

Did you ever think, if Israel never existed, we would most likely not have all these problems today, including 9/11.... And if Israel didn't exist oil would be cheap, because Camels would be the only mode of transportation left; the Arabs would have killed the rest of the world long ago.

To say that Israel is somehow responsible for 911 is the most assinine statement I have ever heard, and I took classes at UC Berkley! Israel is the last best hope that this world has against Islama-facists in the middle east. They are willing to do what no-one else has the stomach for... Stand up to thugs and give them what they deserve! A short drop and quick stop.

If you truly believe what you said, I will refer you to the wisdom of Mr. T: "I pity the fool!" And that is all I have to say about that!

(I hope that no-one, RamRod especially, takes offense as I meant none. I was assuming that his post was tongue-in-cheek and I was simply demonstrating the obsurdity of his statement by being obsurd myself. If he was serious, though, I hope he DOES take it personal :beat: )

RamRod

07-19-2006, 05:34 AM

To say that Israel is somehow responsible for 911 is the most assinine statement I have ever heard

I guess I should have said, "the recreation of Israel". And I'm glad you mentioned that "God's chosen people" thingy.... So tell me, what's that mean the rest of us are, if only "they" are gods chosen people, or don't we like to think about things like that?

Medula Oblongata

07-19-2006, 06:37 AM

First I have to say that I don't truly understand your question. What does the recreation of Israel have to do with 911? Do you mean recreation as in fun activity, or re-creation, as in making of a new state? Either way, I have absolutely NO idea as to what you mean. Are you suggesting that if all the Jews in the world had been exterminated by the Nazi's, that the Arabs would somehow have become pacifists, and would never have undertaken Jihad againt the "infidels?" POSH! Muslims hate Christians as much as they hate Jews for the very reason that we practice a different religion, we lend money for interest, we allow freedom of choice and difference of opinion. I think the only reason i911 didn't happen earlier is because of the presence of Jews in the middle east. They have taken a huge beating over the years that could have been directed at us if they weren't in the way.

If the House of Judah was extinct, and all Christians converted or killed, Buddhists and Hindu's dissappeared, the Muslims would still fight amongst themselves... Remember there are two castes of Muslims, Sunni and Shiite, both who hate each other, both who would exterminate the other. The only reason they are not doing it on a larger scale right now (ahem, Hussein is Sunni and opressed the Shiite's for 40 years) is that there are bigger targets to attack.

If the whole world was Muslim, there would still be unending war until either the Sunni or Shiite completely obliterated the other.

Secondly, the Bible referes to Jews on more than 612 different occaisons as "Chosen by the Lord," the "Lords annointed," and "The Almighty's chosen." With the coming of Christ, the old covenant of Moses was fufilled, and the "New and everlasting covenant" was created, where all "circumsized of heart" are considered to be of the "House of Israel" and therefore "God's chosen." Also, God had promised the House of Israel that he would preserve them until the "latter days, insomuch as thier faith is practiced."

Why do I get a sense of hostility from your statements? To call anything a "thingy" leads me to believe that you have some kind of a personal dislike towards Israel as a whole, and possibly Jews in particular. When I made that statement, I was quoting my Great-grandfather who was executed by the Nazi SS for hiding Jews in his home, protecting them from extermination.

I think you should explain what your feelings are so that the rest of us can understand what you are trying to say. Attempting to decipher your short, cryptic statements is going to cause a lot of misunderstandings. So please, say what you mean in clear, concise english. I truly meant the last few paragraph of my last post to be tongue-in-cheek, as I supposed yours to be as well. If that is not the case, well then, I apologize... Not for what I said, not at all....

I think that Btown02 was correct... You should prepare for lots of flame until you qualify your statements.

RamRod

07-19-2006, 08:15 AM

First I have to say that I don't truly understand your question. What does the recreation of Israel have to do with 911? Do you mean recreation as in fun activity, or re-creation, as in making of a new state? Either way, I have absolutely NO idea as to what you mean. Are you suggesting that if all the Jews in the world had been exterminated by the Nazi's, that the Arabs would somehow have become pacifists, and would never have undertaken Jihad againt the "infidels?" POSH! Muslims hate Christians as much as they hate Jews for the very reason that we practice a different religion, we lend money for interest, we allow freedom of choice and difference of opinion. I think the only reason i911 didn't happen earlier is because of the presence of Jews in the middle east. They have taken a huge beating over the years that could have been directed at us if they weren't in the way.

If the House of Judah was extinct, and all Christians converted or killed, Buddhists and Hindu's dissappeared, the Muslims would still fight amongst themselves... Remember there are two castes of Muslims, Sunni and Shiite, both who hate each other, both who would exterminate the other. The only reason they are not doing it on a larger scale right now (ahem, Hussein is Sunni and opressed the Shiite's for 40 years) is that there are bigger targets to attack.

If the whole world was Muslim, there would still be unending war until either the Sunni or Shiite completely obliterated the other.

Secondly, the Bible referes to Jews on more than 612 different occaisons as "Chosen by the Lord," the "Lords annointed," and "The Almighty's chosen." With the coming of Christ, the old covenant of Moses was fufilled, and the "New and everlasting covenant" was created, where all "circumsized of heart" are considered to be of the "House of Israel" and therefore "God's chosen." Also, God had promised the House of Israel that he would preserve them until the "latter days, insomuch as thier faith is practiced."

Why do I get a sense of hostility from your statements? To call anything a "thingy" leads me to believe that you have some kind of a personal dislike towards Israel as a whole, and possibly Jews in particular. When I made that statement, I was quoting my Great-grandfather who was executed by the Nazi SS for hiding Jews in his home, protecting them from extermination.

I think you should explain what your feelings are so that the rest of us can understand what you are trying to say. Attempting to decipher your short, cryptic statements is going to cause a lot of misunderstandings. So please, say what you mean in clear, concise english. I truly meant the last few paragraph of my last post to be tongue-in-cheek, as I supposed yours to be as well. If that is not the case, well then, I apologize... Not for what I said, not at all....

I think that Btown02 was correct... You should prepare for lots of flame until you qualify your statements.

Blaa blaa blaa..... you type too much ;) . No I'm not "really" anti Jewish, in fact once in my youth I'd planned to move to Isreal and join their army (if they'd take me, to get combat exp.) but I'm getting a "little" anit Isreali just because I'm beginnig to think their not really all the innocent in all these matters. But I guess my real frustation is this "forum" to express ones views. I think you and I would have a rather good discussion over this and other topics, if we could meet in a local Pub over a pint of their finest... I find, one usually acts and speaks a little different when one is face to face with the other debater.... (please excuse any spelling boo boos, my spell checker hasn't arrived to work yet...:D)

I think that Btown02 was correct... You should prepare for lots of flame until you qualify your statements.
Not to worry, I have my fire proof underwear on. ( I was going to say undies, but I thought that would give the wrong impression of my manly hood... :D)

btown02

07-19-2006, 08:24 AM

Not to worry, I have my fire proof underwear on. ( I was going to say undies, but I thought that would give the wrong impression of my manly hood.)
Good one. :D

Medula Oblongata

07-19-2006, 08:26 AM

Lets plan on getting together to get a pint of Guiness at the next available opportunity then! :cheers:

I have, in the past, been extremely angry at Israel and what I percieved to be a nearly overt desire to go to war. Then I have to remind myself that they are a besieged on all sides by a people that would like nothing more than to utterly destroy them. However, Israel seems ready to go to war at the drop of a hat....

One has to consider what they have gone through, traditionally and in modern times, before one can pass judgement on them. Perhaps you and I would be militant if we were in their shoes.

Like I said previously, my posts were primarily tongue in cheek, assuming that yours were too.

RamRod

07-19-2006, 08:35 AM

Lets plan on getting together to get a pint of Guiness at the next available opportunity then!
Well..... if we meet half way, that would be Chicago. But hey, I get danger pay, as I'd have to drive through Detroit!!! Yikes!!! As for my comments, I guess they were more on the "edge" than tongue in cheek.... so to speak, but guess a few of them may have been a little cheeky...

namekid

07-19-2006, 09:37 AM

Per Wikipedia: " The Philistines disappeared as a distinct group by the Assyrian period. " that puts the end to the Palestinians being Philistines argument.

bluenum6

07-19-2006, 09:48 AM

I agree that 9/11 had nothing to do with Israel. The attacks on the World Trade Center were a response to the American presence in Saudi Arabia. Thus, I must disagree with the previous statement that 9/11 would not have occured without the existence of Israel.

Al-Qaeda is an enemy of anyone with a refrigerator; anyone with
inventions and ideas of the West. That is why planes hit the WTC and not an Israeli target. My opinion is that Bin Laden couldn't care less about the Palestinians.

As previously stated, this culture conflict is not new and has not ceased since Mohammed traveled from Mecca to Medina.

EARS

07-19-2006, 10:23 AM

RamRod, it sounds like you have some issues to work out. Medula Oblongata, Amen!

RamRod

07-19-2006, 10:23 AM

I agree that 9/11 had nothing to do with Israel. The attacks on the World Trade Center were a response to the American presence in Saudi Arabia. Thus, I must disagree with the previous statement that 9/11 would not have occured without the existence of Israel.

No, I didn't mean that Israel was for some reason at fault for the attack. I guess I was just trying to say that the world would most likely be a very different place today, if Isreal had not been recreated. And yes, now that I think of it, that is a rather mute point, as the world would be much different today if WWII handn't happened either...

Let's chaulk that one up to verbal diarrhea on my part .... :o

RamRod

07-19-2006, 10:33 AM

RamRod, it sounds like you have some issues to work out. Medula Oblongata, Amen!

Brown noser..... ;)

panzermk2

07-19-2006, 01:03 PM

I love it, cross over kill a bunch of soldiers, and kidnap 2 and then its Israel's fault.
How interesting all those rockets from Iran set up and ready to go. For days now nothing has been transported in and yet they still have 100's of them. Kinda seems to Me that the plan was, get the rockets and supplies in place, Start something, anything just something that the Israelis would have to respond to and start launching rockets.

Turn Gaza over and you will have peace the world told Israel, Have Clinton backed liberals elected (Serpent head and a hole host of DNC folks were sent over their to run the campaign) drag Israelis from their home so they can have peace, rammed down their throats by our liberal government.
So what happens? they gave the bully all their lunch money and the bully used the money to buy a gun and come back and shoot them in the face.
It is a fact as soon as Gaza was emptied the green houses that supplied most of Europe with fresh roses were torn down and rocket emplacements put in place. Within days this started so much for peace.
Sorry you lies donít work here they have the pieces of the missiles that still have the Iranian markings on the state of the art missiles. Wait thatís right the Jews are faking the pictures and blowing up their own people just so the can start a war.Kinda like that poor Palestine family killed by the dirty Jews while sitting on the beach, until of course the bomb fragments were looked at and it was Palestinian bombs that killed them GEE was that little gem reported as a lead story by CNN F no
Thank God they have the Balls to do what our government does not. All the Libs here b**** about what little we do while a modern day Hitler is building up his bombs and supplying every other kind of war material to any body that will kill jews

EARS

07-19-2006, 03:07 PM

Ramrod - The truth is the truth is the truth. Maybe some day you will smell the roses. Remember when you put your nose there, rose have thorns.

Ramrod - The truth is the truth is the truth. Maybe some day you will smell the roses. Remember when you put your nose there, rose have thorns.

You guy keep telling me that the US is a war..... Well someone that would know once said, " The first casualty of war is the truth." And I must say, listening to the American nightly new, truer words were never spoken... Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

By the way, I've never said the Isreali's didn't have the right to fight back, I just said, I think they've gone a little over board this time with their responce!

Soooo.... what's your point? Are the American authorities starting to round up all Muslims in the USA and putting them in "Camps"? I mean, if you really believe them to be such a theat, what are you waiting for?? But hey, just wait a minute, if you did that, it just might piss the Saudi's off, and they might pull their 8 trillion $$$ out of the US banks, eh, and we wouldn't want that would we... So, who really has a knife at your throat, hmmmmm....?

Both sides of this conflict have there nut cases, let's just hope none of them get in charge of things...

One more thing before we all get a little hot under the collor. I'm not on the side of Hummm assss... Yes they are a danger in the middle east, and around the world. I know what most of you are saying, and I understand your passion on the subject, as you feel it's connected with the problems in Iraq.

Sabian

07-19-2006, 10:45 PM

I don't feel that this situation is connected to the problems in Iraq, I feel this problem is connected to the Muslim hatred of anything not Islamic. The world is finally fighting back. Just as it did during the Crusades.

RR, please study the Crusades before you compare them to this situation. The Crusades were never to spread Christianity, but to repeal the Muslims after 450 years of seizure of Christian lands. Please research what Pope Urban's address at the Council of Claremont really said. You will not find a command to convert Muslims. His only preoccupation is to defend Christian pilgrims and recapture Christian lands. It wasn't until over a hundred years later that European Christians made any attempt to convert Muslims when Franciscans began missionary work in lands recaptured by the crusaders. Historically, this effort was largely unsuccessful. Now I admit that the siege of Jerusalem in 1099 when Letholdus led his men and killed the Saracens was hardly representative of the Christian 'faith"; it wasn't at all out of line with battle expectations of the time. This has been blown out of proportion and apologized over and over for by people who have no idea what history really tells happened.

In Islamic theology, if any land has ever belonged to the House of Islam, it belongs forever - and Muslims must wage war to regain control over it - even if it was never theirs in the first place.

I personally would love to see the Saudi's pull their money and oil out of our economy. Yes, it would suck, but in the end my children may actually live in a country that is still free. Well worth it if you ask me.

panzermk2wife

07-19-2006, 11:00 PM

Sabian
:goodpost:

EARS

07-19-2006, 11:58 PM

Ramrod, What makes you think you are hearing the truth on the american news reports?
The news media, for the most part, are worst than politicians when it comes to speaking the truth. If you base you opinions in news reports, there is the anwser, you are being misinformed.

Medula Oblongata

07-20-2006, 02:06 AM

This is going to seem a little odd coming from me based upon my previous posts, but Im going to back RamRod here a little bit.

I think that his whole point is to show his exasperation at the lies spewing from the sound-holes of politicians and reporters around the globe, regardless of political or religious affiliation.

He is absolutely correct is being suspicious of US news reports, as I am sure he is equally suspicious of news articles from CBC, BBC, Reuter, WPI, etc. All of the media outlets are sensationalizing what is happening to sell more print. Some purposefully attempt to make Islama-facists look to be the good guys because they know it will rile most of their readers who will in turn buy the paper the next day (after writing a letter to the editor) to see if the paper printed their rebuttal/changed their story.

William Randolph Hearst was the king of this very tactic more than a hundred years ago. He said (during Shea's rebellion) that "nothing sells print like angering the readers..." I think we should all remember that when we read ANYTHING, regardless of who it is from, and that goes DOUBLE for the NRA. Anyone remember the ads from the 80's during the Mondale/Dukakis election against Reagan where actors portraying Gestapo and Stazi thugs were kicking down doors and seizing guns, with the commentator likening Dukakis/Mondale to them???

Regardless, RR has a valid point, whether or not we want to acknowledge it. I may not agree with it, but I will "defend his right to have it to his death." That little statement is oft mis-quoted as "defend your right to speak it to death." Its actually "to the death of the one speaking," not the one observing.

Anyways, yes RR, I do type too much... But I have to just in order to pass along a small amount of wisdom that the world is sorely lacking.

RamRod

07-20-2006, 07:11 AM

Anyways, yes RR, I do type too much... But I have to just in order to pass along a small amount of wisdom that the world is sorely lacking.

LOL... Well at least you have a habit of actually saying something of merit.(and I do find myself reading the whole thing) I just get frustrated with the mindless dribble that seems to dominate most forums these day (and I'm talking of just this one).... but hey, I may be guilty of that once in a while myself... But don't forget, the veiw you support may be a little bias these days as well. Don't be afraid to question anything that goes across the "Boob Tube" these day, no matter who's saying it. Too stop asking questions is to stop thinking.

RamRod

07-20-2006, 07:16 AM

Ramrod, What makes you think you are hearing the truth on the american news reports?
The news media, for the most part, are worst than politicians when it comes to speaking the truth. If you base you opinions in news reports, there is the anwser, you are being misinformed.

Ahhh.... I think you better re-read what I said....

Medula Oblongata

07-20-2006, 07:24 AM

I question EVERYTHING. Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) once wrote: "Believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see." With the advent of Photoshop, CGI, the internet rumor mill, and every form of electronic foolery, I believe nothing of what I hear or see unless I can verify it for myself.

I think that Karl Marx was absolutely correct when he was writing the Communist Manifesto (I have a number of copies, one origional and several updated manuscripts continued by his partner, Freirich Henkels) that Religion and politics are the "opium of the masses." Basically he was saying that anything will be accepted by the people, and viewed as true, if it is stated enough times.

Propaganda is everywhere, and the media outlets are only too happy to print it because it sells.

Tonite Im making another AFDB. Hoprefully it will block out the mind control rays the CIA are beaming thru my bedroom window (I get this weird itching and burning sensation down south when they turn it on... of course it could also be the fact that I haven't changed my undies in awhile.. All laundry detergent has mind control additives in it, ya know)

RamRod

07-20-2006, 07:25 AM

I don't feel that this situation is connected to the problems in Iraq, I feel this problem is connected to the Muslim hatred of anything not Islamic. The world is finally fighting back. Just as it did during the Crusades.

Like it or not, Isreal is your only friend in that area of the world, and the USA is their biggest supporter. Shit like this "will" effect your boys in Iraq, and if you don't realize that your just kidding yourself......

I'll answer some of you other statements later, but I have to get to work right now...

Sabian

07-20-2006, 07:32 AM

RR, I completely agree with you and your point is well taken. I think you will find the core readers of this forum to be free thinkers who do indeed question much of the banter spewing from the media and the talking heads from both the right and left. They are all basically one party anyway. I tend to listen to the ones that have been labled the outcasts. Examples would be Ron Paul, Michael Savage, Tom Tancredo, Jerome Corsi. These guys love America and what it was founded on, but even they need questioned as no one understands all the facts all the time.

RamRod

07-20-2006, 08:34 AM

RR, I completely agree with you and your point is well taken.

Damn you Sabian, I was getting ready to rip right into you over the rest of your post to me, and now you've gone and let most of the steam out.... but I did say "most" not all..... :D

Here we go anyway...

#1 RR, please study the Crusades before you compare them to this situation.
Please show me, where I mentioned the Crusades on this thead, before now???

#2 I feel this problem is connected to the Muslim hatred of anything not Islamic. The world is finally fighting back. Just as it did during the Crusades.
Did anyone else cringe when they read this. This is what the Muslims have been saying is the reason the US invaded Iraq in the first place, which I really didn't believe, but you do?

#3 Having been raise as a Christian, and I've read a little about the Crusades, I would think that would be last topic one would want to mention when talking about Christian ideas and the middle east. In my opinion, that was one of Chrisindoms lowest moments in history. Just to start, when the "Crusaders" first entered the area, they attacked the first town they found, killed "all" the villagers, but didn't bother to find out that they were Christians too.... and things basiclly went down hill from there.

I kind of feel like the Texans at the Alamo. Keep shooting those cannon ball into the fort, cause I'm gone'a just keep firing them back.... :D

Sabian

07-20-2006, 10:40 AM

Ramrod,

Posting out of order...I agree with on your question the media position, not the Muslim hatred issues.

#1 - You are correct, you did not mention the Crusades. I misread your post concerning Europeons and Jews earlier so I apologize.

#2 - I stand behind my statement concerning Islamic hatred and yes it may make some cringe, but it is what it is. Islam is not a religion of peace. It is a religion of oppression, servitude and domination over all others. Propaganda and Islamic supporters like to spew that Christians lived in peace under Muslims rule for centuries before the Crusaders and "white folk" came in and messed it all up. This was not the case at all. Christians who lived under Islamic rule are basically given 3 choices.

From the Koran...

"It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid throuhj this father that when a Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment be would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who are with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war....When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to accept Islam; if the respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them...If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight against them."

1. Accept Islam - and everything that goes with it.

2. Pay the jizya, the poll-tax on non-Muslims, which is the cornerstone of an entire system of humiliating regulations that institutionalize inferior status for non-Mulims in Islamic law

3. War and death to the infidels with Allah's help

"Like it or not, Isreal is your only friend in that area of the world...."

You are right. Israel is basically our only real supporter in that part of the world but that only makes my point about Islam. Islam has no tolerance for the ways of others so of course, we aren't going to be all that close. I wish our government would realize this and come to understand that "democracy (wolf + wolf + sheep = 2 fat wolves)" isn't going to work and the Islamic world is going to continue to lie and lie and lie to us until they feel they can get the upper hand. But lying is forbidden in Islam? This is true - between believers. Islam teaches that lying is permissable in battle and that "War is deceit" The two islamic principles that teach this are known as "taqiyya and kitman". Different Muslim groups even constantly lie to each other using this doctrine.

Ramrod, I do appreciate your opinion and the fact that you are willing to put yourselves out there to get us all to think. I'm not interested in back slapping either.

RamRod

07-20-2006, 11:31 AM

From the Koran...

"It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid throuhj this father that when a Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment be would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who are with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war....When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to accept Islam; if the respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them...If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight against them."

Well, I've read this, and like any religious writings, it can be open or twisted by anyone for their own use. First off I find it rather funny that this is third party information, but what I noticed first, is that Allah (or God) must appoint this leader, and I don't really think he's picked one of these pissed off radicals looking to make a name for himself or revenge. To me it looks like a tool to keep house in ones own country, IE if you don't want to convert in "my" country, you have to pay this tax instead, and if you don't do that, well then.... I didn't read anything about invading other counties, but like I said, I guess that can be open to interpretation. Like any relligious document, it's suppose to be the word of God, but it was written by men, and men make mistakes.... or just write what they want. My point is, the vast majority of Muslims are just like you and me, we just want have a good life and live in peace. It's not a good idea to white wash all of them because of a few ass holes screwing up the world for the rest of us. Please don't fall into that trap...

RamRod

07-20-2006, 12:25 PM

Gee, I almost forgot this one...
I personally would love to see the Saudi's pull their money and oil out of our economy. Yes, it would suck, but in the end my children may actually live in a country that is still free. Well worth it if you ask me. Turely you must be joking!!! Now, I'm no world league economist, but I have read a little about the this subject. Right now with the US debt and imbalance of trade, the only reason the US economy is staying afloat is because of the trillions of dollars from "off shore" investment in US banking institutions. The USA is still considered to be the saftest place for those with these kind of bucks, looking for somewhere to invest it. BUT, to a certain extent this can be considered just a percepiton of stabilty..... If the Saudi's or some other money rich orginization was to start and pull out of the US, it could start a water shed effect like nothing we've seen before. The US dollar would start to fall like a rock, and one prediction is, that on the second day of the fall, it would be worth half what it was the day before. And yes, the Canadaian dollar would be falling just as fast. What would follow world wide would make the Great Depression look like the "good old days"...

Sabian

07-20-2006, 01:59 PM

I completely agree with your position on the US Dollar. The dollar is supported by a smoke and mirrors game that involves every banking institution going back to the Bretton Woods agreement in 1944 (realistically the creation of the federal reserve on Jekull Island in 1913). The dollar will not last forever as no fiat currency in the history of the world ever has. It has lost over 95% of it's real value since 1920 and the next round of inflation adjustment will most likely take the rest away. The FED (not a real government agency by the way) has discontinued publishing the M3 figures that have been the leading indicactor to what is really going on inside the fed. M3 is basically a report of how much "new and total" money has been "created" for distribution during a period of time. This number might as well have rockets attached to it because it is basicallly heading straight up and won't be stopping anytime soon. This is how the US government is funding everything. It's not our "taxes". They couldn't care less about our taxes - politicians ramble about it because people think it matters. If you could print your own money would you need a job to earn it at? The only thing that continues to support the dollar is the reserve currency status that it holds. This is actively changing behind the scenes and the war in the Middle East has a lot to do with it. I do study economics and actively trade currency and precious metals and personally believe that it is one of the best places to park money for the next 10-15 years.

I also agree with you that most Muslims are just like "you and me" and you couldn't tell them apart from anyone else. I also know that true Islam is a religion of dominance and that most Muslims don't practice their religion anymore than most "Christians" have read their bible this week or have actively been out preaching the gospel. The fact that most people do not practice one's religion to the depths that are basically commanded does not change the fact of what the religion is.

black campbell

07-20-2006, 03:39 PM

Per Wikipedia: " The Philistines disappeared as a distinct group by the Assyrian period. " that puts the end to the Palestinians being Philistines argument.

Wikipedia is notoriously awful for their fact-checking. As for the this argument, I think I'll trust my PhD in history, MA in polysci, and my years of experience in the Middle East.

As for the Crusades, ramrod...depends on which Crusade you're talking about. There were seven Crusades, each several decades apart. The one you seem to be referencing (and which most people use to create moral equivalence between Christianity and Islam) is the 4th (1201-1204), which was used by a rival for the Byzantine throne to try and usurp power. This resulted in the sacking of Constantinople & several other towns along the way. Jews and Christians that were assumed to be complicit with the Muslims, or who were loyal to the then-Emperor were targeted, resulting in widespread bloodshed...most of it not toward Muslims. The 3rd Crusade had some troubles due to fighting between King Richard of England and Philip of France; looting, of course, ensued due to bad command and control.

The 5th through 7th Crusades had no effect on the Levant (the area in question) and were focused exclusively on Egypt. They were also whacking failures.

Sabian's observations: "I also agree with you that most Muslims are just like "you and me" and you couldn't tell them apart from anyone else. I also know that true Islam is a religion of dominance and that most Muslims don't practice their religion anymore than most "Christians" have read their bible this week or have actively been out preaching the gospel. The fact that most people do not practice one's religion to the depths that are basically commanded does not change the fact of what the religion is..." are essentially correct.

The "bad Muslims" are the moderates -- especially in the States and Europe, where many do not speak Arabic and have to rely on watered-down translations or their imam's interpretations of the work. Suffice it to say that it is the only work of religion I have encountered whee there is an exhortation to war on non-believers on nearly every page. Even the Old Testament and Torah are specific in the war God commands; this is a call to arms against any who do not believe. The world is split by hadith into two spheres: Dar al'Harb (House of War) and Dar al'Islam (House of Sbmission [to God].) If you are not the latter, you are the first and fair game. Even more importantly, once a place has been Dar al'Islam, any reversion of control to infidels is an assault on Islam itself, even if the area (say...Jerusalem) was previously Jewish or Christian (in the case of the investment of the city by Mulsims in the 600s) in character. This is why Islamic scholars can always cite their actions as self-defense, even when they are the aggressor.

black campbell

07-20-2006, 03:56 PM

Realized my last post might have come over as snarky. Wasn't meant that way namekid. Had this argument with a colleague this morning; she's the quintessential "America is morally corrupt" leftist who finds Israel can do no right and is irredeemably evil (strangely enough, she's an Israeli /American dual citizen.) Apparently, my stance is inherently racist, being a white male, so feel free to disregard anything I might say. (sigh....)

RamRod

07-20-2006, 04:32 PM

Hmmmm... I must say, I'm rather impressed with some of these latest comments. It's rather nice to be on a forum, where not everone agrees on a topic, and it doesn't end up as a mud slinging contest. (But they're fun sometimes too....evil laughter in the back ground :D)

btown02

07-20-2006, 04:38 PM

It's rather nice to be on a forum, where not everone agrees on a topic, and it doesn't end up as a mud slinging contest.
Those aren't allowed on here. Adults should be able to disagree without it. :)

black campbell

07-20-2006, 04:39 PM

LIfe's too short to get pissed about disagreements.

Hell, I was as much told I couldn't shoot on another thread. (shrug)

Sabian

07-20-2006, 05:46 PM

I've never learned much from people who simply agree with everything I have to say.

Medula Oblongata

07-20-2006, 07:55 PM

I guess its time for me to wade back in on this subject, yet again.

Unfortunately we are in the position of HAVING to judge all of Islam as extremist and dangerous. There is no way to distinguish the radical murdering cowards committing Jihad, from the cowardly sycophantic moderates who listen to the Imam's and Shayk's who preach Jihad. While they may not directly take part in terrorist activities, many either donate funds (or "charity work time") to terorist organizations, or donate funds to their Mosque who then turn around and support terrorists thru "humanitarian aid," or "bullets for badguys" as we used to call it.

The Islamic Center of NY recently published an article in a Saudi newspaper where they trumpted the fact that in a recent scientific poll of Imam's and Islamic Clerics they conducted, 84% in the US are preaching Jihad in their Mosque's, and that 2/3rds of their followers were committed to Jihad and seizind not only the "holy land" from jews, but America from "polytheists." Whether or not we declare war on Islam is a moot point, they have declared war on us. What we have to do now is decide whether we will defend ourselves, or if we will dissappear into the night without a fight. The remaining percentage was almost equally divided between not supporting Jihad but approving of it, and not supporting Juhad and not approving of it. So, according to thier own people, only 7% of Islamic leaders do not support or approve of Jihad in any form.

This is harly a majority of any kind. 93% of Muslim leaders are pleased with, and approve of, murder in all its forms to achieve an end. That end is the utter destruction of any religion other than Islam.

I do not personally approve of mass internments, such as what was forced on Americans of Japanese decent and immigrant Nippons, my step mother <Tsunaishi> was interned as a child at Manzanar and had a unique perspective on the sujbect. She said that it was well known that more than half of the family's interned held allegiance to Japan and were actively engadged in espionage against the US before the war! She said it was extremely difficult for US authoritys to know who was and wasn't a spy because of the tight-knit community that was disdainful of outsiders. She told me, and more than 2000 former residents of manzanar at her mothers Buddhist funeral (Her mother was revered by the camp inhabitants as she brought a sewing machine and fabrick with her and made clothing for all of the children in camp free of any charge. She would even make clothing from burlap rice and flour sacks, strips of linen, and even wove grasses to provide coverings for makeshift convalescent centers) that Roosevelt's decision to intern them was not only justified, but correct. She asked for a pledge, and recieved it in the memory of her mother, that those people whould forever after support fully and with all their hearts, the United States.

That being said, the time will soon come where entire Muslim communities within the US will be briefly interned so that the FBI, DHS, and the CIA can ferret out the terrorists who are being hidden in their midst. What we have to do, as responsible citizens, is closely watch to ensure that only the "bad guys," all 2/3rds of them, are held captive.

Whew!!! Talk about opening up a can of worms and inviting flame throwers to be aimed at my posterior!

kamo

07-20-2006, 08:05 PM

cliff notes please...

black campbell

07-21-2006, 12:58 AM

Cliff Notes: Many to most Muslims tacitly, if not actively, support terrorism.

RamRod

07-21-2006, 06:20 AM

The Islamic Center of NY recently published an article in a Saudi newspaper where they trumpted the fact that in a recent scientific poll of Imam's and Islamic Clerics they conducted, 84% in the US are preaching Jihad in their Mosque's, and that 2/3rds of their followers were committed to Jihad and seizind not only the "holy land" from jews, but America from "polytheists."
The "Islamic Center of NY" trumpted the "fact" in a recent "scientific poll" and using the figure of 84% in the US are preaching Jihad..... Hmmmm did any of you see Penn and Tellers show on Polls? Now, don't get me wrong here, I also think there is a danger here, but I really think these guys, like all people who conduct these "studies" are padding their figures just a "bit". I really doubt the number is over 30% if that, but hey I could be wrong, and still, even 30% is not good, so yes, regardless, we all need to be on guard. But really, 84%..... BULLSHIT!! (Penn & Teller would be so proud of me...) :D Hey who knows, maybe it's really only 8.4% and they just used some new math when they converted it.... ;)

Medula Oblongata

07-21-2006, 06:37 AM

In most things I would agree with you, and again with Samuel Clemens who said "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics." In this one, however, I tend to believe it. When I said "trumpeted" I wasn't necessarily (intentionally) saying they were approving of it. The Islamic Centre of NY is a very conservative, pro-US group. They released all of their figures, that they collected by mailing out surveys with more than 100 questions on it (of the 82,000 sent out more than 1/3 responded, which is astronomically high for ANY survey).

I got the feeling, by reading the translation, that they were saddened. They commented that the western world would never accept them as long as the Muslim world continued to undermine and plot to destroy democratically elected governments around the everywhere they go.

Now I could be wrong, and their stats could be utter BS. But its their stats, not mine. I would urge you not to shoot the messenger.

Do I personally think that 86% of Muslim clerics in the US are Jihadists... well, I honestly hope not, but it woulden't suprise me if they were. Lets remember that the vast majority of Islamic Clerics are trained in theology in the middle east, and most are origionally from Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and other countries that are predominantly anti-western. It only takes one in a group to really ruin things and stir up a whole lot of trouble. Take Jim Jones of Jonestown fame, David Koresh, and thousands of whacko's like them out there. After all, Hitler was only one man, and Stalin, and Pol Pot, and Mousalini, etc, and they influenced MILLIONS of people to commit the most horrible acts ever committed.

One bad apple spoils the barrel, so to speak. I think that good Muslims need to get the crap out of the barrel and leave the rest to rot. Then we'll see who's good, and well, who's rotten.

RamRod

07-21-2006, 08:47 AM

Now I could be wrong, and their stats could be utter BS. But its their stats, not mine. I would urge you not to shoot the messenger. No intention here to "shoot" the messenger. At first I thought they were bumping up the numbers to use the "fear card" and get a negative reaction from the non-muslims, then of coarse get the the moderate moslims on their side, but since you said this group, the Islamic Centre of NY, is a very conservative & pro-US, well this puts a whole new slant on the "poll" as I see it anyway. I guess we're going to have to keep an open mind on the subject, but at the same time, remain on guard.

What object is served by this circle of misery and violence and fear? It must tend to some end, or else our universe is ruled by chance, which is unthinkable. But what end? There is the great standing perennial problem to which human reason is as far from an answer as ever. Sherlock Holmes

black campbell

07-21-2006, 05:25 PM

I'd bet the question was loaded, but from my experiences dealing with Muslims abroad and here at home, even those who do not personally accept violence are slow to condemn it, and slower to aid in preventing it. They won't actively help the jiahdis -- they don't want to go to jail or worse -- but they are certainly not going to help infidel against their fellow believers. Gut take on this, based on hwere things stood when I left government service -- 5% of the Muslim population (we know of) in the US is actively involved in a terrorist group, another 10% or so is supporting the same, but is not operational; 50% or so tacitly supportive, with only 5% or so being actively opposed to terrorism. The rest are, as with any population, actively apathetic on the subject.

This is spitballing, of course, and hardly scientific, but it's a good extrapolation from data I was exposed to in the 1990s and early century.

TripleTap

07-22-2006, 12:49 PM

The Lebonon leader was spouting off about his military joining the Hizbollah Terrorists if the Israeli military invades enmass. The stock video playing in the background showed 100's of them armed with P90's. Do you think this could be the worlds first Bullpup war? The P90 on the Lebanese side and the IMI Tavor bullpup on the Israeli side. Is the Tavor issued in large quanities yet?

RamRod

07-22-2006, 02:23 PM

Is the Tavor issued in large quanities yet?
I found this on the the subject, a little old, but I don't things have changed much in the mean time:
The development of the new assault rifle, that should eventually replace in service the ageing M16A1, CAR-15 and IMI Galil assault rifles, began in Israel in the 1991. The new rifle was developed by the Israel Military Industries (IMI, now TAAS) company, in close cooperation with the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF). This new rifle received the name of "Tavor" and the designation of TAR-21 (Tavor Assault Rifle, for 21st century). The new rifle first appeared on public in the 1998, and it had been tested by the IDF during 1999-2002. At the moment of writing (spring of 2003) there were no large purchases of the Tavor by the IDF
As a foot note, the Israeli's never bought very many of their own Galil's either. I hardly ever see it in the papers or news reals, and I under stand this is because they go so many M16s in the 60s and 70s at bargin prices....