February 16, 2012

A 45-year-old Indianapolis man is on trial, facing life in prison, after taking his 3 grandsons on a hike in the Grand Canyon.

Defense attorney Jeffrey Williams portrayed [Christopher Alan] Carlson as an active health nut who had a firm hand and wanted to show the boys the world. Like anyone after a long hike, the boys were tired, hungry and thirsty, but Carlson only allowed the boys to eat healthy food like tofu, hummus and veggie burgers, Williams said in his opening...

The 9-year-old, the youngest of the three brothers, testified that he experienced cramping, nausea and hunger during the miles-long treks.

But he also told jurors that his grandfather took the boys on many “awesome” adventurous trips. In between the two hikes, Carlson took the boys on a tour of the Hoover Dam, to rides atop the Stratosphere hotel and a Criss Angel magic show in Las Vegas, and to Disneyland in California.

Jurors smiled as the boy also spoke of trips to Mexico, Belize, Honduras and across the western United States last summer with Carlson and his two older brothers. The trips often included long hikes, swimming and fishing in the ocean and thrill rides at amusement parks.

Although investigators have said Carlson withheld food and water, the boy testified that he and his brothers were allowed to drink water most of the time and snacked on celery, carrots, tofu and low-carb hummus during the hikes.

62 comments:

"Carlson only allowed the boys to eat healthy food like tofu, hummus and veggie burgers"

By pretending the abuse was a reference to the food or the long hikes, rather than the physical bullying and disregard for dangerous heat, I see him as one who knows he is abusing, rather than just being a tough love Dad.

But being out in the heat if you have proper hydration is not abuse. Uncomfortable, yes. But it isn't abuse. Grampa probably should not have been monkeying with their diet, as the body will react messily with a severe diet change, but tofu isn't abuse either, nasty, but not abuse.

I remember going backpacking with the family when I was quite young. I had to pull my weight and it wasn't easy. I remember crying while being tired. It wasn't abuse, I was a child being tired during a hike to our camping spot, which we had to reach before dark. I had a blast the entire week and when we hiked out I was in shape.

" Christopher Alan Carlson's 9-year-old grandson says he and his two brothers were kicked during scorching hikes into the Grand Canyon last summer and that his grandfather also hit him in the face, causing a nose bleed."

Also

"Prosecutors have alleged that Carlson deprived his grandsons of food and water and pushed, choked and repeatedly kicked them during hikes on Aug. 15 and Aug. 28, when the temperature soared to 108 degrees"

Well, that sounds more abusive than tofu. I find the selective copy grab misleading.

This is the kind of excursion my father would have taken us on. We called them "feats of endurance." When my siblings and I get together and reminisce, these are the most beloved of memories. My father took my son on many excursions too, at my request.

I can't tell you how grateful I am that he dragged us on these treks and badgered us to successful completion.

I remember wailing and blubbering because I was made to climb to the top of the Washington Monument when I was quite young. It was torturous.

What I learned was that I was stronger than I thought I was. And my father loved me greatly for helping me realize that.

There's kicking, and whipping and nerve pinching in the Daily Mail's account. I don't know if Daily Mail is a legit source or not. It's from the U.K., so I guess that makes it respectable. Brits are by, definition, respectable, right?

That makes me think that it is probably more than just telling kids to cowboy up.

Interesting; haven't seen anything about this trial in the Phoenix media.

Any claims of abuse in this case relate to grandfather taking the kids on a long hike in Arizona in August. Fit, experienced adult hikers can easily get into trouble in the desert at that time of year; forcing a bunch of overweight kids out in it is criminal.

Something about this story reminds me of "The Crucible". Young boys (and girs) who don't want to do something are liable to make things up in order to make the situation sound worse than it was.

The kids reportedly had access to water and healthy food during the hikes. And did a ranger see grampa "whipping" one of the boys with a tee shirt, or was grampa simply snapping the shirt as one would a towel in a locker room? They were aiming to get to a vantage point to see the sun set.

All I see is a bunch of whiny, entitled, lazy kids who would rather watch TV and eat chips try to make a federal case out of some healthy exercise and nutritious food.

"Christopher Alan Carlson’s 9-year-old grandson says he and his two brothers were kicked during scorching hikes into the Grand Canyon last summer and that his grandfather also hit him in the face, causing a nose bleed."

Stout Cat: From what the ranger saw, and the reports of the kid -- it sounds like the legal system is actually doing what it is supposed to do. When faced with what appears to be a crime, it is investigating it to try and determine if one occurred.

The evidence (one witness and testimony from the kids) is enough to warrant an investigation. Without more than that, I can't say if there should also be a conviction, but there's enough here that this isn't an over reaction by the state.

"Another brother said that when he fell, Carlson picked him up by the throat and threw him to the ground, and another said Carlson had slammed his face into a rock, the complaint said."

And:

"Rangers fed the boys and gave them water after one showed symptoms of heat stroke and the other two had signs of heat exhaustion and dehydration."

These are all legitimate reasons for the state to step in and make sure abuse is not happening. If Bibles would not say silly things like using the Grand Canyon as a weapon of abuse, I think we would not be so quick to rally to the grandfather and would be taking a more wait and see approach.

I actually hiked part of the Grand Canyon this summer as part of a family vacation. It took about three hours to go about a third of the way in and out of the Canyon (the altitude change coming out nearly kicked my arse). The temperature was in the 70s (it actually snowed the day after I hiked), brought edamame for protein and drank plenty of Gatorade and water to stay hydrated and replenish my electrolytes.

I can’t imagine any responsible adult taking a nine year old into the Canyon without proper preparation or adjusting the hike to match their capabilities. Much less this:

The criminal complaint said that one brother feared that another brother would fall to his death because Carlson forced him to walk on the edge of the trail even though he was cramping and falling down. Another brother said that when he fell, Carlson picked him up by the throat and threw him to the ground, and another said Carlson had slammed his face into a rock, the complaint said

I can’t imagine a custodial parent getting away with this, much less a relative. There are times when the state overreacts in order to protect children. I don’t think that this is one of those cases.

Okay, you've got 3 boys on a hike in the middle of some trail and it's 108°. They start complaining and balking, maybe refusing to walk at all, and there's a way to go. You're the only adult, and you're exhausted and hot too. They kids are being awful to you, and you know they feel bad, but it's getting dangerous. They need to walk!

What do you do?

Now, suppose you're not the smartest, best-informed person in the world. Would you "whip" the oldest one with a rolled-up T-shirt? Would you ever smack one in the face? If you did, would you feel bad? If you felt bad would it be because you realized that if the authorities found out they might prosecute you for crimes for which the sentence could be as much as life in prison?

That treatment is not unusual except in urban America in the most recent decades. It was common in many families even when I was kid, and the idea that a parent or grandparent would be prosecuted for it would have been considered crazy.

The granddad knew full well that the kids were not being harmed and would come out fine, in fact, improved. This sounds like a person who actually cares about these kids in a deep way, but I'm from a different time and place, thank God.

After all is said and done, his kids will be able to defend themselves and others, to survive difficulties without breaking down, and even to protect the coddled ones raised by the enlightened who will drag down the rest. But, creating the far superior and necessary man is abuse.

Okay, you've got 3 boys on a hike in the middle of some trail and it's 108°. They start complaining and balking, maybe refusing to walk at all, and there's a way to go. You're the only adult, and you're exhausted and hot too. They kids are being awful to you, and you know they feel bad, but it's getting dangerous. They need to walk!

No the adult in this situation needs to better prepare before taking an overweight nine-year old onto a hike that’s killed adults who were in shape.

I hiked the Grand Canyon with people who, I didn't realize until we got there, were complete idiots. It's a very dangerous place and should never be taken lightly.

I don't know if the treatment described really happened, but if it did, I would be inclined to say that perhaps the grandfather was doing what was necessary to get the children moving. You don't want to be stuck in the sun too long and speed has a virtue when getting out of the low elevation and extreme heat.

A better plan would have been to not take such young children down the canyon, but absent some severe injuries, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.

I would have died to go on a hike like that when I was 8,9, or 12 years old. Those boys will not grow up to be left wingers, they will be survivors, who will always know how to take care of themselves. Their grandpa has done them an immeasurable service.It brought back memories of my freshman year of CrossCountry practices when the coach would send us out on 6 mile runs on local farm roads, and follow along in the drivers ed car. And of course the first hour of "a band of brothers"

Just give the kids some nuggets, apple juice, etc. and charge grandpa $1.25 each instead of a crime punishable by life.

Let's say he goes to prison. Imagine how the boys will feel when they are in their 20's knowing the hike cost grandpa a life sentence. The state will have to provide them with mental health services to cope.

There's a whole bunch of kids who would be better off with a grandfather or father who took them on hikes and trips to places like Honduras, Mexico and Belize.

It sounds to me like the grandfather acted irresponsibly by putting his grandsons into a dangerous situation that has killed more physically fit adults and compounded his initial mistake by failing to properly plan or seek help. Whether he choked, kicked and smashed his grandchildren’s faces into rocks to “motivate” them rather than acting out of frustration for a situation that he created and as the adult is responsible for is not terribly interesting.

My own thinking is that the person responsible for putting someone into a dangerous situation in the first place generally should no longer receive the benefit of the doubt. Particularly when they’re an adult and the one that they endangered is a child but YMMV.

Not having been there I do have some questions. Why would you take out of shape children into a dangerous enviroment? Was the "kicking" nudging with a foot to "get the hell up and walk"? Regardless, I wouldn't take any unprepared person to the Grand Canyon.

My dad once hit me on the side of the head (temple specifically) with a recurve bow for walking too loud. Once. After I picked my self up, I told him if he ever tried that again I would kill him. I guess I was believable because that was the last time my dad ever hit me.

That's a reasonable opinion, Thorley, but life in prison is more than a bit ridiculous.

That’s a tougher call for me. I tend to agree with Matthew that the hike alone wouldn’t warrant a charge of felony child abuse, however that’s largely because none of the children were seriously injured or killed. If that had been the case, I wouldn’t lose much sleep over locking him up and throwing away the key. The added details about the kicking, choking and slamming a child’s face into a rock pretty clearly bring it back into the realm of child abuse. I’d be interested to see how accurate the reporting is on the sentence being sought and whether there are additional aggravating factors that lead to seeking a life sentence.

I think the professor has it right. At some point whining and resting isn't getting to the top, to the car. Frustration abounds.

Nice to know, however, that we are such a nation of pussies that hiking in 108 degree heat is considered by many here to be suicidal or close to manslaughter. Better to take the kids to Mickey Ds and then on to a hip hop concert or better still back to the couch and the tv and the whirring ac. Is it even legal to take kids out of the country? Lots of danger there too, eh? And germs. Not to mention foreigners.

Prosecutors have alleged that 45-year-old Christopher Alan Carlson of Indianapolis deprived his three grandsons of food and water and pushed, choked and repeatedly kicked them during hikes on Aug. 15 and Aug. 28.

There is a disconnect from what is presented vs. the childs testimony. Besides, if this guy is 45, I want what he is having. He looks like he is 18. Damn good genes in my opinion.

Also, who brought the complaint before the court? The kids, the parents? and why? So much detail left out.

I think the professor has it right. At some point whining and resting isn't getting to the top, to the car. Frustration abounds.

When I hiked in the Canyon, I remember seeing signs warning about the difficulty of adjusting to the altitude and encouraging hikers to make frequent rest stops and take in plenty of fluids. If you’re hiking with someone less physically capable like a nine year old child, you ought to be taking more frequent rest stops (especially coming out of the canyon) and the adult ought to making damn sure that the children in his care are getting enough water and not getting nearly dehydrated. Nice to know, however, that we are such a nation of pussies that hiking in 108 degree heat is considered by many here to be suicidal or close to manslaughter.

Because nothing says “I’m not a pussy” like a 45-year old man kicking, choking and smashing a little boy’s face into a rock.

1. It's a question of survival. If you're on a trail and the only reasonable expectation of survival is to get to the top then that is what you do. You get to the top. You don't beg, you don't plead. You push, prod, force and if necessary you drive them. Because if you don't then they might die.

2. Life in prison? Is this a joke? It wasn't that long ago a wife got less than 4 years of jail time for murdering her husband with a shotgun while he was lying in bed. And yet this guy is facing life in prison?

3. Frankly I wouldn't have anything to do with the whiny little bastards after this. I'd write them out of my life and my will.

"This sort of Drama Queenery from the prosecutor doesn't help get at the truth."

SGT Ted, what do you think DAs hire women for, anyway - good lawyering? Here in Houston we had one who infamously tied her co-counsel to the bed where the murder allegedly occurred, hiked up her skirt, climbed on top of him, and "stabbed" him repeatedly. This did not lead to a charge of prosecutorial misconduct, but to a conviction and a movie deal. Makes me want to vomit.

The temperature may have been 108, but it was not down in the Grand Canyon. And probably not even at the top. Very likely, that was the temperature in the (Phoenix) Valley that day. 5 - 6 hours away. Not that the heat couldn't still kill them. It's just probably another exaggeration to the story.

I have hiked down all the major trails in the Grand Canyon. I do not doubt that the temperature at the bottom was 108 degrees in August. Moreover, you're surrounded by the hot black rock of the Vishnu Schist down there, so it's even worse than the thermometer indicates. It requires good conditioning and careful preparation, with a gallon or more of water per person per day. Spring and fall would be better times, although then you run the risk of snow at the higher elevations. I don't think people from the flat parts of the country have a real grasp of the extremes of weather in a place like the Canyon. He'd have done better at that time of year to take them on a long flat hike along the rim, not far from civilization.