I would not go for the parent, I would force the school to change its behavior.

And for the home schooled? And what about private schools? Who gets to "force" who? What weapons are they allowed to use to apply this "force"? Everyone has their own opinions about education (what is taught, how it's taught, how it's managed, etc). State run schools create a situation where people are artificially forced to reach some consensus where there might be at times legitimate disagreement. Sometimes people need to be allowed their space to avoid violent conflict. If people had more choice regarding schools or could recover their tax dollars to put it toward private alternatives, it would ease some of this conflict.

I would simply like our governments to be more persuasive and less coersive.

So, if a child isn't being taught state approved material, how far would you be willing to go to force the parents to comply? Would you take the children from their parents? Would you imprison or kill them if they resisted? That's my point.

This has happened in Canada, and was not pretty. Many students were abused. Many of the churches running the schools were recently facing the prospect of paying out bankrupting compensation.

The one thing that has always frustrated and confused me about Americans is how they simply refuse to learn from others, and keep trying to figure out and fix things themselves. We have countries with thousands of years worth of trials, errors, and fixed mistakes to learn from, but America, being only 250 years old, thinks it knows better and can figure things out better on its own. We have tons of other education systems to examine, from places that are kicking our ass when it comes to math, science, and culture. Why are we so arrogant that we forcefully put on blinders and just keep throwing shit ideas at the wall to see what sticks, or trying to throw money at the problem to make it go away, instead of picking the best ideas from all parts of the world to be the best period?

The one thing that has always frustrated and confused me about Americans is how they simply refuse to learn from others, and keep trying to figure out and fix things themselves. We have countries with thousands of years worth of trials, errors, and fixed mistakes to learn from, but America, being only 250 years old, thinks it knows better and can figure things out better on its own. We have tons of other education systems to examine, from places that are kicking our ass when it comes to math, science, and culture. Why are we so arrogant that we forcefully put on blinders and just keep throwing shit ideas at the wall to see what sticks, or trying to throw money at the problem to make it go away, instead of picking the best ideas from all parts of the world to be the best period?

Its all about the $$$, the free market at work. First, the 'new' ideas are not intended to work....as Piper67 knows. They are simply part of the sales pitch. If you actually do something, then your long-term business falls apart...you gotz to keep them coming back.

You give the sales pitch, and the school district buys into it. They do so because when they retire, they work for the sales company. BTW, if other countries ideas actually help sell learning products here, they would be sold. But parents who want to feel like they are being parents(and in denial how they neglect their kids) prefer this hypnosis. They also prefer feeding to be overweight(such as pizza), looking at the sandbox(aka TV), or anything else that results in quick parenting....I understand it, dont get me wrong. Who has the time to actually act responsible for their kids? Heck, who has the time to act responsible for themselves?

simply refuse to learn from others, and keep trying to figure out and fix things themselves...America, being only 250 years old, thinks it knows better and can figure things out better on its own...kicking our ass when it comes to math, science, and culture...so arrogant...throwing shit ideas at the wall to see what sticks...throw money at the problem to make it go away, instead of picking the best ideas from all parts of the world to be the best period?

God damn, I think you just wrote the next verse to the Star Spangled Banner.

I think it's more important to teach kids the value of the scientific method rather than dictate a bunch of "facts" to them.

People enjoy living in a world of white and black. Things are FACT or they are NOT FACT. However we really never know anything 100%. We call things fact for the convenience factor, if something is likely enough to be true that it's not remotely constructive to question it then we consider it a fact. Nothing would get done if everything was always questioned, so we have to make some assumptions and more vigorously question things that seem less likely to be true. The best we can do is find theories that best fit our data. Our data comes from our tools and environment and will always be partially flawed.

One fallacy some fall into is thinking in absolute terms. Teaching children the method will let them come closest to the truth than anything else.

The one thing that has always frustrated and confused me about Americans is how they simply refuse to learn from others, and keep trying to figure out and fix things themselves. We have countries with thousands of years worth of trials, errors, and fixed mistakes to learn from, but America, being only 250 years old, thinks it knows better and can figure things out better on its own. We have tons of other education systems to examine, from places that are kicking our ass when it comes to math, science, and culture. Why are we so arrogant that we forcefully put on blinders and just keep throwing shit ideas at the wall to see what sticks, or trying to throw money at the problem to make it go away, instead of picking the best ideas from all parts of the world to be the best period?

LOL what is 250 years old? America is two continents, fool. Is china 50 years old? The most advanced agricultural engineers of all history lived in America thousands of years ago. The education system is really good at what it was designed for.. keeping people dumb. you can read about the philosophy of the people that set it up they are pretty explicit. Sadly that kind of populace isn't as productive as it was when it was set up.

LOL what is 250 years old? America is two continents, fool. Is china 50 years old? The most advanced agricultural engineers of all history lived in America thousands of years ago. The education system is really good at what it was designed for.. keeping people dumb. you can read about the philosophy of the people that set it up they are pretty explicit. Sadly that kind of populace isn't as productive as it was when it was set up.

LOL what is 250 years old? America is two continents, fool. Is china 50 years old? The most advanced agricultural engineers of all history lived in America thousands of years ago. The education system is really good at what it was designed for.. keeping people dumb. you can read about the philosophy of the people that set it up they are pretty explicit. Sadly that kind of populace isn't as productive as it was when it was set up.

Actually, no. You should not be free to teach your kids whatever you wish, because your child's education isn't about you, it's about your child.

So, I guess you get to decide what is taught to children then? I suppose you are fully prepared to take people's children away and kill their parents to impose your world view as well? Sorry, but I don't want to live in your murderous and totalitarian world.

PS. I find it ironic that you seem to support state controlled education and use religious teachings as your justification for it. It's ironic because were it not for the lobbying of religious institutions in the mid 1800s in the US, we might not have a statist education system today. Religious organizations lobbied heavily to impose a state run education system precisely because they could use it to force their teachings on people.

World view? If you really think whether the world is 6,000 years old is a matter of personal view, then you and I have very little to discuss... And you are an idiot.

Parents are also not free to withhold medical treatment from their children because it is their view that Jesus will swoop down from the sky and cure little Bobby's leukemia. Yet I guess you would call me totalitarian and murderous for wanting to provide health care for Bobby, in spite of his idiotic parents' wishes.

Again, it is the rights of the CHILD that I am speaking of here, a concept that seems quite alien to you.

And, even though I thought I had articulated it quite clearly in my original post, the idea is to have a standard of education that, through a process of free inquiry and openness, provides children with a minimum ability to discern fact firm baloney... A process you quite clearly seem not to have been exposed to.

Beyond that minimum standard, if the parents want to send their children to Madrassas, Sunday Schools, Hebrew camp or whatever they choose, they are clearly free to do so. When faced with proper education, however, those other "world views" tend to succumb to their own narrow-mindedness. This has been the case in places like Sweden, Norway, Finland... It is where the education system fails abysmally that the religious world views have a chance at gaining a stronghold, places like Pakistan and the US.

I don't agree with schools teaching evolution as fact, when it is only theory. The evolution theory is based on assumptions which can't be proven.

'Theory', 'hypothesis' are used in non-technical contexts to mean an untested idea or opinion. A theory in technical use is a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena. e.g. the theory of evolution. A hypothesis is a conjecture put forth as a possible explanation of phenomena or relations, which serves as a basis of argument or experimentation to reach the truth. e.g. "This idea is only a hypothesis".

I don't agree with schools teaching evolution as fact, when it is only theory. The evolution theory is based on assumptions which can't be proven.

'Theory', 'hypothesis' are used in non-technical contexts to mean an untested idea or opinion. A theory in technical use is a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena. e.g. the theory of evolution. A hypothesis is a conjecture put forth as a possible explanation of phenomena or relations, which serves as a basis of argument or experimentation to reach the truth. e.g. "This idea is only a hypothesis".

I always remind those who claim that evolution is "only a theory" that gravity is, too.