Comic Talk and General Discussion

ozoneoceanAddressing the Sam, Rough SK etc:Compromises have been made and removing the bottom add is no small thing, I'm not happy with the way that's so easily dismissed: up until the removal of that there were 3 adds! Three. That was an add space that was currently being used to display paid advertising too (the middle one is not), and no matter how little we think people look at that one down there the fact is it was paid add space on every single page of DD (thousands of pages) and it draws revenue from people paying to use it. The removal indicates DD is willing to take a loss of revenue in an attempt to appease those of us who're unhappy with the current situation. It would be nice you you were a little more gracious in acknowledging that.

First, this new ad space isn't going to stay internal-only for long. Dylan himself said that they put it in there as a direct result from a discussion with an advertiser. This is going to have real advertisements in the near future, else there would be no point in creating it. DD isn't going to lose revenue from it, they will be gaining. This is a measure strictly meant to increase the amount of money that DD can make. (not that that is a bad thing, but this is a FAR more valuable spot than the footer, so it's not a fair comparison at all)

Second, it was a small thing. The advertisers aren't happy with bottom placements, and wanted better, so DD gave up something that wasn't making much money for something that will make tons. Since no one really cared that much about the ads at the bottom of their pages, we didn't get anything out of the deal. One less ad is meaningless when not one week ago there were the same number of ads but it a much less intrusive placing.

How is that, in any way, a compromise, especially considering the fact that no one said “Hey, you know what? I'd be happy with this new ad that is right in the middle of my page if you were to remove the one at the bottom that I don't really care about.” A compromise involves both parties getting something of what they want. This isn't one of those things ;)

The only thing that happened was that DD replaced one ad that people didn't mind with one that they did. That's a loss for creators, not a gain. It's not as much of a loss as it could have been, sure, but that's not a compromise.

Here's an example. You're in jail. I'm your jailer. Every day I come out and beat you with a stick once in the head and once in the foot. You're allowed to wear a hat, and shoes, so neither hurts TOO much.

One day, without notice, I come in and hit your head, foot, and crotch. Wow, doesn't that suck for you! You complain about it, and I say “Ok, I'll stop hitting your foot.”

Is this a compromise? Not at all. You[re still being hit just as often as before, except now it's worse. You haven't gained anything, all that you've done is prevent a further loss than what already happened.

If the advertisers were in any way interested in the bottom ad now that the middle one is available then there's no way that DD would lose it, because it would be too much revenue. Now that this new ad spot has opened up, the advertisers don't care about the bottom spot, so DD can throw us a bone and take it away.

Wow, I feel all warm and fuzzy ;)

I'm not saying that it's terrible that they took one ad away. It is cool. I'm just saying that they gave us something that neither they nor we cared that much about, so we should all be looking at it for what it is, and not hyping it up as any more than that.

Simply put, they gave up something so minor in compared to what they took that, in the context of what is happening, it will appear meaningless. It would have been huge and awesome if done on it's own, but it wasn't. It was done along side something far worse. You wouldn't be thanking the government for removing a $100/year tax when, at the same time, they also added a $1000/year tax, would you?

The other changes that have been made in response to community sentiment are also promising because they show that DD management is willing to listen to the concerns of its users, if the suggestions are sensible and clear enough they will try and accommodate you.

I'm in total agreement here. DD has always been very good about listening to, and accommodating the users.

You know, I didn't actually notice that ad until what must've been several days after it appeared when I saw this thread. >_> I am so unobservant it's untrue.

Now that I do see it, I'd prefer if it wasn't there, but overall it doesn't bug me too much. Personally, I can generally go back to ignoring it. ;) I've also been seeing a sort of… higher class of ads on DD lately. Not better ad CONTENT, of course, most banner ads are pretty similar. ;) I mean bigger companies. And it's nice to see DD do well.

If an alternative can be found, though, I'd be delighted, if only because so many other people are bothered by it.

Just out of curiosity, though… do the companies advertising on a site affect your opinion of it? If a site has a company you consider “big”, does that make you feel the site is more important?

It's just something that's been rattling around in my head for the last couple days, and I'm interested what other people think. :)

While I admit the loading time is a totally valid concern and one I have no easy answer for let me take on your land challenge. Lets us pretend DD is in fact land. Let me point out this is land you do not own. If you were getting land rent free and you keep a farm on there. Then one day the owner decided to put a billboard in why would you have ANY legal right to the profits from that billboard simply because you happen to be growing crops on the land? The fact that you put work into the land, maybe even say cleared it of trees making it available to the billboard doesn't make you any more entitled to the profits and no court in the world would say otherwise.

Sam: Once again you're putting passion where you really should be applying fact.

These things have direct comparison, they are successful formulas have worked through out the web. However you have asked for a direct comparison so I'll provided.

Kindly observe keenspot.

Now if you are through suggesting that nothing I say has relevance because it challenges your view point I've yet to see you've provided anything but wild speculation so some facts would help this debate.

Now as you'll note many, many, many sites offer adds and it has in no way damaged their credibility.

Please go to the library and get a book on basic economics. If you can't accept the way the economy works namely supply and demand then there is nothing I can say to change your mind. You are actively chooseing to ignore facts. I'll repeat the many examples I gave before as to how adds help comic creators. The open invitation conventions, the fact that our site no longer crashes, the expanded features, the comic challenge which is giving people a chance to get in print, the ability for DD and their sponsors to now publish comics etc. etc. Please stop substituting your beliefs for facts. I am shocked how you can simply sweep aside fact and logic as non-contextual.

Megatokyo you'll note has in no way distanced itself from adds or even from multiple adds all over the page and it hasn't hurt its credibility in the least. Nor will adds in anyway harm the credibility of any comic on this site.

Keenspot is far from known as a bad host simply because it uses adds to make money. Why do you assume that something which is proving to make money would be without value? Do you know how Count your Sheep got on keenspot? He proved he could get hits on DD. Likewise if you prove that people are making money off you it is simple economics to suggest you could make money for someone else. I mean where do you get these ideas from? Have you actually talked to advertisers? I'm guessing not.

You are clearly not one to take bullshit but you are one to put it out. Going by your own examples, let me point out those sites didn't lose their audience because of column adds but intrusive pop up adds and viral advertising so by your own logic I'm dismissing that as not relevant.

You are asking for an unprecedented and truely unrealistic amount of control in the life line of this or any proffessional site. This sort of advertising has not harmed countless sites. The very suggestion you are presenting would devalue advertising making it worthless.

You are on a free hosting site. I really think people can figure out that advertising here is from DD. You obviously don't so I'm just going to agree to disagree. I guess I have more faith in my readers. However beyond that you are once again ignoring the point that these adds are in flux. They are experimenting. Your over reaction isn't helping refine the process. Volts has clearly said he going to make changes in a few days but rather than wait for it and registering your complaints then when it would be productive you continue to push it now where is really is just unproductive harassment.

You are are being totally unreasonable and close minded here. You are ignoring the fact that DD is trying to expand feature and service on the site which is where this new money is going. You might not think it is a fair trade off but you are once again willfully ignoring facts to make your arguments and being rather hypocritical giving unreasonable and unrelated analogies.

How about this example. You work for a company. One day they say they are going to start offering more benfits because they need to for legal reasons but in order to offer these benfits everyone is going to have a small reduction in pay. Now you are getting a new service and losing some pay too so the company can afford to stay in business.

Is this a compromise? I suppose that depends on your view. They didn't ask but they did try and give you something in exchange for your loss. This happens all the time in business. Your involvment here is your own choice, just like your choice to take employment with a company. Volts isn't standing behind you whipping while you make comics so your analagy is both inaccurate and highly manipulative.

STOP THE FIGHTING OR I'LL….PINCH YOU!I almost think this is really going to go no where…(Unless you want to take it to the debate thread and see how far you can take it.) Ads are good for money, but over-obtrusive ads are bad and may scare people away. I think we all agree on those two things in some form or another.

I personally think all of you are freaking out a little too much if you are all just referring to the one new ad on the templates…or I guess you're referring to all of the new ones…I don't know.

I do hope another alternative or a better spot is found for the template ad (my suggestion no goody?) or even some of the other ones if they can find a way to pull it out their butts…but I don't think angry mobs should start cropping up until you have to scroll down a whole lot just to see your comic page or you're going blind from flashing lights.

So how much money do you pay to rent your site here at DD? I mean yeah it is outrageous that I pay all this money for my free web comic hosting and the owners of the site have this ludicrous idea that a business venture should be profitable to them.

Which is why it was a joke. Heavens do I need to make it obvious THREE times now. Of course it's not a good comparison! It's a lousy one. I was just playing along if he was going to take things out of context.

Real estate is a funny thing to call it, because it doesn't compare exactly. However, the point about people choosing a host and being turned off by ads holds true. Just not as severe. I'm only pandering to my joke being taken seriously.

Heed Sarah's words!Please people tone down the rhetoric, or any point to your posts will be lost amidst the ranting.Keep it short and to the point!This discussion is about the placement of the adds on user's templates under their comics. Nothing else.Examples are useful for making points but please don't get carried away.

Sam and Nick, I get what you're saying, but this is just turning into a useless debate between both of you that could be better handled through private PQs. I'm asking you both to take it down a notch please. You've both had your say, now if you can't keep any further posts to a single 5 line paragraph each then you're probably saying too much and just repeating yourselves.

DregsSo how much money do you pay to rent your site here at DD?

I understand you may not have been around here long Dregs, but DD isn't that kind of place. This was a non-profit site for many years, Volte built the community and he and the community made it what it is, not a business. OK? This is why many users feel as they do, so it's not fair or accurate to criticise them on that point.-DD's recent slick new phase however is due to to all the lovely Platinum input and for that we're thankful. :)

This is a debate with two sides…So, Sam, Sarah, Lefarce, Silent Kitty, Eviltwinpixie (and more), you're all mainly upset about the placement of the add. From now on could you please post about alternative placements you think would be a good compromise? Bear in mind that unless it's as attractive as the current placement it's not an option.

I think the first placement was fine. One at the top and one at the bottom. But I suppose if it's too far down, under the coment box would be good. Those who comment will pretty much have to see it, but it won't be in the way.

ozoneoceanSo, Sam, Sarah, Lefarce, Silent Kitty, Eviltwinpixie (and more), you're all mainly upset about the placement of the add. From now on could you please post about alternative placements you think would be a good compromise?

How about comics like gods of the arr whatever and hero by night have links to my comics that have content on it that they don't approve of? Not even me, how about LeFarce or Detectivefork?

Although I am considering trying out the EVE online thing, especially if I can find a private server to play it on. It looks rather cool.

ozoneoceanFrom now on could you please post about alternative placements you think would be a good compromise? Bear in mind that unless it's as attractive as the current placement it's not an option.

I actually did give a suggestion in an earlier post…little snippet of that post here:This probably has been mentioned before…but for the new template ad, couldn't that be placed at the very bottom of the page instead of under the comic? Like under or above the black block with the DD links?

Though I don't know how attractive it would look….but yeah, that's all I got ideas wise…and it looks to have been suggested before….so…..I'm done. :kitty:

SarahNThis probably has been mentioned before…but for the new template ad, couldn't that be placed at the very bottom of the page instead of under the comic? Like under or above the black block with the DD links?

Not so good I'm afraid Sarah, we already had a placement there and have given it up in favour of this new one. Any suggestion has to be as favourable in positioning (to advertisers) and the one under the comic.

On this subject (and despite my bad history with them), I have to agree with Lefarce on this. If people wanted to find this merchandise that is being offered they would more than likely google it. Or look at the top top or bottom of pages. Where the adverts are now, they're pratically being shoved down our throats. Can at least the WoW and flirt-o-matic be removed?

What about directly under the navigation buttons? That's still very “center of the page”, especially if there are comments to read, and it gives a spacer between what the author's put up and what the community reaction is. A much more natural separation for an ad, in my opinion, without really moving it out of prominence.

Edit: I seem to have forgotten that the location of the nav. buttons are different between comics. I guess what I basically mean is “under the author's notes”, or perhaps, “above the comments”.

As I said in my last post to Nick, I'm not responding to him any more. I think my points have been made quite clear, and I see no reason to continue saying the same thing. You will be getting no more debate from me. :)

suziWhat about directly under the navigation buttons? That's still very “center of the page”, especially if there are comments to read, and it gives a spacer between what the author's put up and what the community reaction is. A much more natural separation for an ad, in my opinion, without really moving it out of prominence.

I'm with Suzi there. My biggest complaint is that it's between the page and the page navigation. Nearly everyone scrolls down enough to see the navigation…so wouldn't they also see the ad placed underneath?

SuzyWhat about directly under the navigation buttons? That's still very “center of the page”, especially if there are comments to read, and it gives a spacer between what the author's put up and what the community reaction is. A much more natural separation for an ad, in my opinion, without really moving it out of prominence.

Yes I know what you mean. I accidently hit the “Hero at night” banner or whatever it's called. No offence to the author but I don't want to read it. I also don't want to worry about trying to hit the navigation bar and missing and ending up on a comic which is already in the top 5 or some dating advert.

On some comics, the placement doesn't bother me, but it does seem to mess up others (in terms of layout). Actually, when it first appeared, I didn't notice it, but as I read some of my favorites, it was a bit of an eyesore. (Especially for a short time when the page would load only to the “sponser block” and then freeze for a long time…)

I agree that under the navigation buttons or under the author comments would be better, and at least add some space between the art and the adverts. People will see it there for sure. It would only be moved down an inch.

My other thought is I wonder if it would be possible for users to have an option between a banner or a tower ad (like beside the author comments or beside the comic itself if it is a “thin” one), to fit their layout. There could be a little radio button to select banner or tower when choosing layouts. It might not be possible, but, eh, worth mentioning the idea. Since one of the big problems is the sponser ads skewing page layouts.

Well.. my concern with it being moved now is that not only will we have a big flashing ad in the middle of our page, it will be a big flashing ad with an unmovable white or grey border around it. At the moment, the border is tolerable because it's connected to the “tag this comic” thing under the comic.

If it's moved, could we have the option of changing the background color on it to something that matches our layout more, maybe? Like we have the option with the buttons at the top?

Oh, I've just accepted it. That's the life of a starving artist and all.

But, on/off topic a bit. It's ads. Not “adds.” At least in American English. Is it different in other parts of the world? I mean maybe my, I'll just say numerous degrees (all of which are in fields of: English, and Literature (Except one in theatre and one in Geology, and two in education.) that I've never encountered an instance where “adds” was an acceptable substitute for “ads.” It's buggin' the bejezus out of me. (Mainly that one dude that was all like…I have so and so degrees in marketing; but kept using “adds.” ) But, I could be wrong, I don't think so…But, I could be.

I do like the idea about having the “Sponsor” bar under the comic say DD Sponsor. Especially when that get's sold. ‘Cause there are some things that do turn the stomach that are advertised here. Big Love’s pologamy and the crass dating ads get me, personally. But if it clearly said, DD Sponsor…Then our readers wouldn't assume the “sponsor” was our comic's “sponsor” instead of the hosting sites “sponsor.” (Say, “sponsor” one more Godd@mn time. Sorry, just watched Pulp Fiction.)

maritalblissBut, on/off topic a bit. It's ads. Not “adds.” At least in American English. Is it different in other parts of the world? I mean maybe my, I'll just say numerous degrees (all of which are in fields of: English, and Literature (Except one in theatre and one in Geology, and two in education.) that I've never encountered an instance where “adds” was an acceptable substitute for “ads.” It's buggin' the bejezus out of me. (Mainly that one dude that was all like…I have so and so degrees in marketing; but kept using “adds.” ) But, I could be wrong, I don't think so…But, I could be.

The way I understand it, if you are using the short form of the word “Advertisement”, then “Ads” is correct. however, If you are just explaining this “addition” to the comic page, then “Adds” may be acceptable.

maritalblissBut, on/off topic a bit. It's ads. Not “adds.” At least in American English. Is it different in other parts of the world? I mean maybe my, I'll just say numerous degrees (all of which are in fields of: English, and Literature (Except one in theatre and one in Geology, and two in education.) that I've never encountered an instance where “adds” was an acceptable substitute for “ads.” It's buggin' the bejezus out of me. (Mainly that one dude that was all like…I have so and so degrees in marketing; but kept using “adds.” ) But, I could be wrong, I don't think so…But, I could be.

The way I understand it, if you are using the short form of the word “Advertisement”, then “Ads” is correct. however, If you are just explaining this “addition” to the comic page, then “Adds” may be acceptable.

Right.

It didn't occur to me that some people might be using “adds” to mean “additions” makes sense though.

I love you D.D.But ads directly under our comic pages is just not nice.I don't mind it on my profile page, really. Although it would be a lot nicer if it was under the “Forum Topics Started” instead of under the “About Yourself”.

I understand that you need the ads to pay for all this fancy snizzle, and that's fine, but find better places to put them.

All would be good in the hood if we got that old handy tag that was featured in the older versions of the Duck. It still includes the ad, but at least it would give us some sort of freedom as to where to put it instead of being shunned with that noscript ad banner stuff.