It’s a witty sentiment and I agree, but I’m more concerned about harm to women than harm to feminism and if it’s okay with you Cath, I’d like to take us there for a few.

Declaring something “not feminist” is easy and has no practical point. It’s a non-declaration posing as saying something, but what is it saying?

I see a passive-aggressive attempt to turn “This does not help women” into a mere peccadillo instead of something critically important to women, for example the normalization of eroticized violence, something that very demonstrably harms many women.

Such deflective framing forces the question of “Is this harmful to women?” out of the picture and we’re left to eat a “Rape porn is not feminist” duh-obvious sandwich that leaves us hungry and without lunch money. The phrase becomes an odd middle ground, a point of conciliation that points away from anything substantive and painstakingly contributes nothing.

That’s not my middle ground, and it shouldn’t rightly serve as the middle ground for people who claim the politics of harm reduction with all its implied goals of reducing- not maintaining at the current level -harms to women.

I’m reminded of the man who posted at Twisty’s that he’s against child prostitution…and his gracious opposition to what only the criminally insane approve of should be met in the middle by radical feminists letting him pay to fuck 18-year-olds.

The whole point of the ‘BDSM is feminist’ argument is to try and deflect the argument away from the harm done by framing BDSM as a matter of choice and anyone who objects to it as against ‘women’s choices’ and oppressing women. That’s why the BDSM crowd always say ‘but surely feminism is about a woman having the right to make any choice she wants’. And that’s why my blog currently has stats through the roof. Because I said I don’t care about consent. What about the harm?

HOWEVER, and I make no bones about saying this, if you look at the groups, such as Backlash, who try to frame say, viewing extreme porn, as a ‘women’s choice’, they are always, always controlled by, guess who, men.

Therefore there is some validity in the slogan (plus it’s funny). It’s tackling and debunking one of the arguments that is used to hide harm done.

Hi Polly, I don’t think we’re disagreeing, I think I didn’t explain my point well enough.

I agree with you that feminism has been co-opted by the capitalistic language of choice and this is problematic. My thoughts are more on how calling something feminist (or not) is a shorthand way of removing flesh and blood women from the discussion and replacing them with a political construct. Political theories are debatable in a way the femicidal body count isn’t, which is how capitalism infiltrated feminism in the manner you describe.

It’s similar to my feelings about writers who think it’s useful to report, “Feminists are divided on prostitution” when all the evidence in the world show prostituted women themselves are not remotely as divided on prostitution as feminists.

I think I get what you meant, Sam. And it doesn’t stop at feminism. Nowadays every political action has been replaced by “choice”. Adam Curtis briefly brushes over this in the third episode of “The Century of the Self” (I haven’t been able to find more about this topic anywhere else). It’s a reversal of “The Personal is Political”. The best example is “saving the environment by making informed consumer choices, ie: buying green”. I blame POMO.
(Sorry for the derail, Cath)

“I’m reminded of the man who posted at Twisty’s that he’s against child prostitution…and his gracious opposition to what only the criminally insane approve of should be met in the middle by radical feminists letting him pay to fuck 18-year-olds.”

At the end I’ll tell you the biggest secret in British law enforcement

Is panic over child abuse making us over-react to pupil-teacher relationships?

( the lack of irony is intentional)

You need to meet more teachers (is my first thought)

The average NASUWT teacher, the average one, and I really do mean Mr. Average,

does not think it is necessarily a crime for a foster parent to have sex with foster kids,

Pedophilia is widespread enough to be viewed as a pervasive part of the mainstream.

Do a search for “Flint Waters” and “13.7 million” and remember that is for real and also the tip of the iceberg

And did you hear what Chris Keates was saying about the ‘school up the road’?

( pause to vomit)

So let’s not talk about hard to accept when it is not only common, it’s in class, it is normal and it is teaching.

“only the criminally insane approve of ”

You need to meet more teachers, not only do they do it, they think it is a moral behavior.

‘Robert says: “She was like a groupie. She used to wear her skirts hitched up and black tights, and she’d lean against the wall, all casual like…Then she’d go off down the corridor vamping it to the max…’

Teacher talking about a thirteen year old, they don’t see ‘grooming’ as getting them when they’re young.

If it is insane, the world went mad, or at least Britain.

That secret?

If you have a society that has the idea that child pornography, and abuse of trust are optional policing elements.

You are lost on the minority crimes, why should the police care?

And they are minority crimes, because sex crime in Great Britain is pedophilia.

As for Z, I dunno to be honest. I think it’s incredibly hard to judge what people are really like on the Internet. Tempers flare, people hide behind anonymity and feel safe to say stuff they probably wouldn’t say to you in real life. I know I’ve been guilty of it in the past, and then ended up meeting the person and being really shocked to discover that they don’t fit at all the image I’ve built up of them in my head.

I know others have done the same to me – haven’t they Sadie!

Sometimes I think we should just arrange a big old-style UK fem conference, get everyone in a room together (and I mean everyone – 2nd wavers, 3rd wavers, sex possies etc) to hammer all our differences out.

Other times I think it’s the worst idea in the history of the world ever, and it’ll only end in tears (and blood!)

🙂 Hi Cath. It *is* easy to hide behind anonymity. You’re right of course, they are probably nice enough in real life.
I love the idea of a conference! Let’s do it!
Seriously. As you say, people are nicer in reality, & I have faith in people.
Although, catfights would be fun too 😉 and the media would love that, wouldn’t they?!

Cath – gah, obv I wasn’t clear – that was my point, I meant it sarcastically! As a joke* about the misogynists’, and general, perception of disagreements between women as catfights. So I can see some disastrous media coverage. Feminists don’t agree on everything ever, oh noooo!

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"Those of us who love reading and writing believe that being a writer is a sacred trust. It means telling the truth. It means being incorruptible. It means not being afraid, and never lying."
Andrea Dworkin

"Sex-negative feminism consists of, what, Andrea Dworkin and that weird Cath Elliott woman at the Guardian?"
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