DPMS Oracle?

This is a discussion on DPMS Oracle? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I found this on the Ar-15 forum. Thought it was interesting. When people say it's not "Mil-spec" I wonder is that fact or fiction?
"I've ...

I found this on the Ar-15 forum. Thought it was interesting. When people say it's not "Mil-spec" I wonder is that fact or fiction?

"I've read through every post so far and it seems like DPMS is getting a bad rap for some reason. There's even one post calling for "support" to back up a claim that their rifles are quality; all the while not one person who has downed them has offered any such support for their claims. If the OP is still interested here is a quick comparison of the DPMS Oracle and the Spikes Tactical ST- 15. All the information can be found on the respective websites. I've tried to stick to the pertinent stuff and filter out as much fluff as I can. Here we go.

It is 100% fact that it's not mil spec. The thing is, they use lower quality parts, don't test properly, their specs are often out of whack, many, and I mean a huge percentage, of their chambers when marked 5.56 are actually 223 and need reamed for 5.56. Also, their gas ports are often much larger than spec of .063 for 14.5" or 16" and this leads to many serious issues that get worse with time.

I could go on forever here, but another Google search will detail it much better than I can. I can't tell you how many I've seen fail in a class where others did not. They will suffice for basic range shooting though and can be tweaked for better reliability, though still won't be a true "fighting rifle" in most professionals' minds.

I can guarantee, with 100% certainty, that DPMS is not mil spec (actually only Colt is and Remington military since they hold the TDP for the M4, but Colt is as close as you'll get with BCM, Daniel Defense, LMT, some Noveske's, etc.). There are rifles out there that are very high quality that exceed mil spec, but DPMS and Bushmaster are not on that list. FN, Colt and now Remington are the only ones that legally have access to the TDP for the M16 and M4. Colt's civilian 6921 is as close as you can possibly get without class 3, then the 6920 would be next. The only difference there is the extra 1.5" of barrel and the semi only fire control group.

Many people only understand part of this, so it gets confusing. There's no reason to buy anything but mil spec or better when it can be had for much less than before. You can find 6920's all day for about a grand online. You can assemble a BCM for a little under a grand. Now, I'm comparing this to a $1,000+ Bushmaster. It would be hard to argue with someone that has a budget of $700 and only will shoot it at the indoor range once every couple months. But, for professional or serious use, only mil spec or better should even be considered.

Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

It is 100% fact that it's not mil spec. The thing is, they use lower quality parts, don't test properly, their specs are often out of whack, many, and I mean a huge percentage, of their chambers when marked 5.56 are actually 223 and need reamed for 5.56. Also, their gas ports are often much larger than spec of .063 for 14.5" or 16" and this leads to many serious issues that get worse with time.

I could go on forever here, but another Google search will detail it much better than I can. I can't tell you how many I've seen fail in a class where others did not. They will suffice for basic range shooting though and can be tweaked for better reliability, though still won't be a true "fighting rifle" in most professionals' minds.

I can guarantee, with 100% certainty, that DPMS is not mil spec (actually only Colt is and Remington military since they hold the TDP for the M4, but Colt is as close as you'll get with BCM, Daniel Defense, LMT, some Noveske's, etc.). There are rifles out there that are very high quality that exceed mil spec, but DPMS and Bushmaster are not on that list. FN, Colt and now Remington are the only ones that legally have access to the TDP for the M16 and M4. Colt's civilian 6921 is as close as you can possibly get without class 3, then the 6920 would be next. The only difference there is the extra 1.5" of barrel and the semi only fire control group.

Many people only understand part of this, so it gets confusing. There's no reason to buy anything but mil spec or better when it can be had for much less than before. You can find 6920's all day for about a grand online. You can assemble a BCM for a little under a grand. Now, I'm comparing this to a $1,000+ Bushmaster. It would be hard to argue with someone that has a budget of $700 and only will shoot it at the indoor range once every couple months. But, for professional or serious use, only mil spec or better should even be considered.

I like to build my own. from stripped receivers and my own parts, that way I can get a brand new Krieger Barrel.
I a have a couple of DPMS rifles and they are fine.
As for the warranty. I don't think is a big deal. Once you read the fine print there is not much to it. Once you build your own most everything can be fixed by you. But I doubt you will ever have a problem with a DPMS. I like the Rock River and Armalite better but the DPMS has the prices.

There are some gun shows around here in Wisconsin. There are a couple of big companies that go to the shows with lots of these type rifles. You will have to pay sales tax and get the background check but you can handle several different models and compare quality and triggers. Prices are good and if you print off the internet prices they will probably match the price and you can take your new rifle home with you. If you purchase from Buds you will still have to pay a transfer fee. that will be about the same as the sales tax. They don't charge a fee for the background check on rifles in state. I got no problem with Buds just saying it would be nice to handle several models and makes before you spend the money.

Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

Thank You,but noone wants to listen to me,and I'll,like most professionals will give credit where it's due,my weapon experience includes an Armorers course in the M16/M-4 platform,I am by no means the know all on them,I can keep them running and in the fight.I really appreciate the knowledge you pass along for free here.As we know knowledge is invaluable,espically when it is earned and not bought.

Thank You,but noone wants to listen to me:frown:,and I'll,like most professionals will give credit where it's due,my weapon experience includes an Armorers course in the M16/M-4 platform,I am by no means the know all on them,I can keep them running and in the fight.I really appreciate the knowledge you pass along for free here.As we know knowledge is invaluable,espically when it is earned and not bought.

I like to read everything Jon posts. Then I cram it all away in the Timmy noggin mainframe to be pulled out later when I have a roll of cash.

@ the OP. OP I'm not an expert but over the last few years my knowledge of ARs is growing. I, like you, am more of a plinker and less hard core. A few of my thoughts on this:

1) I wouldn't touch a DPMS with a ten foot pole.
2) I don't know about DoubleStar but that price is hard to beat. At that price you can afford upgrades as time goes on.
3) In your price range you should check into a S&W M&P Sport. I don't own one but people (plinkers) really like them.

4) The most important thing for last. If you have the $670 in cash then put it in your sock drawer and wait. Good deals always come to folks with cash on hand. I'd add another $30 over the next month or so and then you will have an even $700. For $700 you will be able to find a high quality AR if you wait for one. It could take 6 months but in the end you will get the right gun at the right price.

I waited nearly a year to buy my first AR and when I did I bought a fully spec-ed M&P for $600. This was not the sport but the real deal. Good things come to those who wait! Shop hard and you'll find paydirt!

"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

It is 100% fact that it's not mil spec. The thing is, they use lower quality parts, don't test properly, their specs are often out of whack, many, and I mean a huge percentage, of their chambers when marked 5.56 are actually 223 and need reamed for 5.56. Also, their gas ports are often much larger than spec of .063 for 14.5" or 16" and this leads to many serious issues that get worse with time.

I could go on forever here, but another Google search will detail it much better than I can. I can't tell you how many I've seen fail in a class where others did not. They will suffice for basic range shooting though and can be tweaked for better reliability, though still won't be a true "fighting rifle" in most professionals' minds.

I can guarantee, with 100% certainty, that DPMS is not mil spec (actually only Colt is and Remington military since they hold the TDP for the M4, but Colt is as close as you'll get with BCM, Daniel Defense, LMT, some Noveske's, etc.). There are rifles out there that are very high quality that exceed mil spec, but DPMS and Bushmaster are not on that list. FN, Colt and now Remington are the only ones that legally have access to the TDP for the M16 and M4. Colt's civilian 6921 is as close as you can possibly get without class 3, then the 6920 would be next. The only difference there is the extra 1.5" of barrel and the semi only fire control group.

Many people only understand part of this, so it gets confusing. There's no reason to buy anything but mil spec or better when it can be had for much less than before. You can find 6920's all day for about a grand online. You can assemble a BCM for a little under a grand. Now, I'm comparing this to a $1,000+ Bushmaster. It would be hard to argue with someone that has a budget of $700 and only will shoot it at the indoor range once every couple months. But, for professional or serious use, only mil spec or better should even be considered.

Thanks for the reply. There are so any mixed reviews on the DPMS on the other forums it makes your head spin. Some of them make sense and some don't.
I'm not challenging you in any way but I am wondering how you know this stuff. Are you in this industry? How do you know DPMS materials are inferior? Again, I do NOT mean to offend in any way. Thanks!

I like to read everything Jon posts. Then I cram it all away in the Timmy noggin mainframe to be pulled out later when I have a roll of cash.

@ the OP. OP I'm not an expert but over the last few years my knowledge of ARs is growing. I, like you, am more of a plinker and less hard core. A few of my thoughts on this:

1) I wouldn't touch a DPMS with a ten foot pole.
2) I don't know about DoubleStar but that price is hard to beat. At that price you can afford upgrades as time goes on.
3) In your price range you should check into a S&W M&P Sport. I don't own one but people (plinkers) really like them.

4) The most important thing for last. If you have the $670 in cash then put it in your sock drawer and wait. Good deals always come to folks with cash on hand. I'd add another $30 over the next month or so and then you will have an even $700. For $700 you will be able to find a high quality AR if you wait for one. It could take 6 months but in the end you will get the right gun at the right price.

I waited nearly a year to buy my first AR and when I did I bought a fully spec-ed M&P for $600. This was not the sport but the real deal. Good things come to those who wait! Shop hard and you'll find paydirt!

Ohh... the waiting game... already been there with all of my handguns haha. I would definitely wait but this is a birthday present from my wife, not my personal money so I wouldn't feel right just stashing the money away this time.

The oracle was my first AR. Good gun, had some slop between the upper and lower but it wasn't horrible. I could have saved money if I'd built one instead because I ended up taking all the stock parts off and adding magpul stuff and a 12in free float rail. I was pleased with the gun except for the trigger which was about 12lbs iirc. That could have been my specific rifle though.

Thanks for the reply. There are so any mixed reviews on the DPMS on the other forums it makes your head spin. Some of them make sense and some don't.I'm not challenging you in any way but I am wondering how you know this stuff. Are you in this industry? How do you know DPMS materials are inferior? Again, I do NOT mean to offend in any way. Thanks!

You have every right to ask those questions and I'd certainly ask the same of someone I didn't know if they said something similar. I'm on my iPad, so this won't be as thorough as normal. I'm very involved in the industry, though I'm only an end user of these rifles in my career. You can see in my profile what I do. Pretty much everyone I associate with either works in the industry or carries a firearm at work. A few of the guys I know well are also people that most others think of when you think of carbine training.

I've done an extensive amount of research, 2 different armorers classes, and have seen pretty much every issue I ever mention first hand. plus, I've owned a DPMS and two Bushmasters and have had serious issues with both, which I can get into detail about when I'm on my computer if you'd like. I have a couple armorer/contractor friends who are in charge of over 100 rifles. Most are Bushmaster and all needed reamed along with a heavier buffer to counter the larger gas ports. There was a small number of DPMS's with serious issues as well, mostly due to being overgassed and having a 223 chamber when it was said to be 5.56. This lead to serious reliability issues and could have ended very badly had the armorer not known what to check in the first place.

As for the substandard materials, that just common knowledge amongst industry professionals. The barrel steel can be confusing as most don't understand how how it's designated. As long as its 4150, it should be good if it's made the right way. 11595e is certified CMV (?), or 4150 grade. 4140 is what was commonly used by DPMS. It may now be 4150, but is it cold hammer forged or button rifled? What about the chrome lining? Gas port sizing is a big thing and DPMS uses large ports since they expect their customers to shoot weak ammo. They or Bushmaster have actually said this. I can get more into this as well...

Again, I can get into much more detail, but I'm on the iPad. Feel free to ask and I'll fill you in as much as possible when I'm back on the computer, within an hour or two.

Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe