I can't help but notice the lack of records in this statement. A video, perhaps? A series of photographs? A stenographer's play-by-play?
Maybe a video of these aforementioned Silat-playing Dog Brothers, with a series of annotations saying "here, at 1:16, that's Silat, not Kali" and the like?

Its not worth it to me to gather such evidence to convince you Claw... Look at the Dogs Brother's site and listen to what they say... Just google dog brothers and it will come up. My friend who was in the group was trained by me then in kick boxing and weapons... when I went down there in New Mexico to play with him we did weapons sparring. i was complimented on my knife work (this was years ago) and I remember that a lot of what the teacher was using was from Insanto and he mentioned Silat.

this is anecdotal it was my experience... thats the best I can do but the web site does exist and if you want to not hold ignorant views you have all the incentive you need to take a look don't you? If you want to win your argument with me then yes I will not post a link so you win... now go google the web site and learn something!

PS:

the footwork conceptually in Silat and some Kali is synonomous this is a point to realize... namely the idea that one attacks on a triangle and the triangular footwork... Jim Jude can perhaps clarify this. Denny Dog haha realizes this and sets up off the triangle on a lot of his attacks watch for it on the videos on the site.

Last edited by Dsimon3387; 2/02/2010 1:19pm at .

This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.

I cannot be bothered to offer real support for my claims.
Have some more anecdotes instead.

Re: The Dog Brothers, I've watched plenty of their videos. I see the Kali. I see the Muay Thai. I see the BJJ. I don't see any Silat.
Now, I realize that this could just be because Silat is so subtle an art and my eyes so unused to scanning for it's particulars, that I was simply blind to it's Indonesian killing prowess in action. Which is it why it would be ever so helpful if some Silat master could kindly post a video of two people fighting and annotate it with such comments at "See, at 2:22, he performed a textbook Crocodile Bites Your Head Off. That's pure Silat right there."
But I know that this dream will never come true.

Re: The Dog Brothers, I've watched plenty of their videos. I see the Kali. I see the Muay Thai. I see the BJJ. I don't see any Silat.
Now, I realize that this could just be because Silat is so subtle an art and my eyes so unused to scanning for it's particulars, that I was simply blind to it's Indonesian killing prowess in action. Which is it why it would be ever so helpful if some Silat master could kindly post a video of two people fighting and annotate it with such comments at "See, at 2:22, he performed a textbook Crocodile Bites Your Head Off. That's pure Silat right there."
But I know that this dream will never come true.

Oh brother... listen to yourself... You have this need to be right and now you need a Silat master because you got the Dog Brothers... If you were in front of me I would say dammit! slap you upside the head! and demand that you learn something. The art is in the footwork, Denny often comes charging in and attacks at this angle he claims he learned this from that nexus of arts... I will now go out and find you a Silat master ok? Ill be back later.......

Ok this guy says he is going to rope a dope your ass... with Silat for good measure. I offered to buy him a pack of cigs for his trouble

This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.

Enough spoon-feeding. Buy some vids, spend some time & money training either in Silat or go train with some Dog Bros and ASK THEM.
You know how many styles of Pencak Silat there are out there??? Draeger claims HUNDREDS. & they're all quite a bit different, & things get even more contrasted with comparing "pure" Indonesian styles with Dutch-Indo styles (being geared more towards H2H and bigger European body types).
If you trained in some BS style of Silat, some flowery bullshit, then It's really no wonder that you have a problem seeing the high posture/compact movement and principles of a Dutch-Indo style.
It's like doing ONLY non-military Korean TaeKwonDo and then watching someone who works Uechi-ryu into their system and saying "Hey, that's bullshit! I don't see any Karate in there. Someone post vids and annotate all of the **** that I have absolutely no frame of reference to even recognize plzthanx"

Last edited by Jim_Jude; 2/02/2010 10:15pm at .

"Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

"The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

"Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney

Jesus christ, you guys are like pulling teeth. You guys are too busy masturbating with knives in your non-dominant hand to use a fucking quote block?

From the Dog Bros FAQ you linked, Silat is an art that they wish to "acknowledge" but that is not primary to their practice.

A) The core of our curriculum is FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS (FMA). The three principle systems upon which we draw are Inosanto Blend (Guro Dan Inosanto), Pekiti Tirsia (Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje), and Lameco (the late Punong Guro Edgar Sulite), though of course there are many others too. We consider Silat to be a part of both unarmed and weaponry FMA, and, although not Filipino, we wish to acknowledge the influence of the Indonesian system of Bukti Negara Pentjak Silat of Pendekar Paul de Thouars.

Phrased a little differently on the Higher Consciousness page:

The core of the system is FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS (FMA). The three principle systems drawn upon are Inosanto Blend (Guro Dan Inosanto), Pekiti Tirsia (Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje), and some Lameco (the late Punong Guro Edgar Sulite). Silat is considered to be an integral part of the FMA, and in the case of DBMA it includes some of the Indonesian Silat system of Bukti Negara.

Silat is one component of their trapping, throwing, and striking-during-grappling, within the Dog Bros Vale Tudo system:

The page that is about "modified Kali Silat for the cage" (http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/art...orthecage.html) needs translation. He is talking about something that, as far as I can tell, is both totally valid and also true of less than twenty people in the world. I'm not quite sure what his opinions are on pure or traditional Silat, and I'm not sure what Kali Silat is.

He says things like

6) It is precisely the present absence of triangular striking crash combinations in cagefighting today that explains the current difficulties in applying Kali Silat in the closer ranges. Conversely, its presence enables it. Kali Silat works.

where he is using obvious tradition-specific jargon to make a fairly technical point. Boy, I'd like it if someone either A) used whatever he's talking about in some form of public competition, or B) showed the Dog Brothers using it, or C) showed the Dog Brothers teaching it. Boy, that would be nice. But you won't do it, because we're so lazy. We need to pay our 59.95 to get the DVDs and learn the True Meaning of Silat. Thanks, but I've seen the Scientology sales pitch before.

Then he gets into **** that makes me think that he's so far away from what pretty much everyone considers Silat that it's ridiculous to claim the Dog Brothers as some sort of magical potion that validates what you do:

Kali Silat does require some training methods distinct from those of generic MMA. Currently many people deride this training as "dead patterns". This can be, and often is, true when the training stops at this point in the process.

But just how does one train a Silat takedown that calls for ripping the medial miniscus of the knee safely upon a resisting opponent?

IMHO part of the answer lays in what Guro Inosanto calls "cooperative quarter lever" technical training wherein the correct leverage is identified but applied only a little bit in order to facilitate the development of the understanding of the application AND DANGERS of Kali Silat. Part of the answer lies in BJJ/submission type training. And part of the answer lies in working with training partners who have done both quarter lever training BJJ/submission type training.

In other words, both need to have an understanding of the risks/consequences of Silat techniques, a sense of what uncooperative people feel like, AND the ability to roll and/or strike at partial intensity without accelerating-- as the Machado Brothers say, "leaving one's ego at the door."

Not only is this type of training highly effective in installing these dangerous skills for real time application, it also is relatively safe and quite fun.

The same process described here for learning and training Silat leverage also applies to Kali Silat striking.

This conception of training methodology is essential to manifest Kali Silat in the cage.

Or in other words--correct me if I'm wrong--you need to do the equivalent of BJJ-while-standing, or push-hands-with-qin-na, or randori-with-standing-jointlocks. Is that standard Silat? Or is that something else?

What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates

Enough spoon-feeding. Buy some vids, spend some time & money training either in Silat or go train with some Dog Bros and ASK THEM.
You know how many styles of Pencak Silat there are out there??? Draeger claims HUNDREDS. & they're all quite a bit different, & things get even more contrasted with comparing "pure" Indonesian styles with Dutch-Indo styles (being geared more towards H2H and bigger European body types).
If you trained in some BS style of Silat, some flowery bullshit, then It's really no wonder that you have a problem seeing the high posture/compact movement and principles of a Dutch-Indo style.
It's like doing ONLY non-military Korean TaeKwonDo and then watching someone who works Uechi-ryu into their system and saying "Hey, that's bullshit! I don't see any Karate in there. Someone post vids and annotate all of the **** that I have absolutely no frame of reference to even recognize plzthanx"

I had a Silat guy in my class for a while... a French African gentleman with a Danish wife. I really liked working with him, he had trained in Europe. he brought good game to the group no doubt. The real problem is the bad stuff it makes evreyone think its all bad... sound familiar?

This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.

I had a Silat guy in my class for a while... a French African gentleman with a Danish wife. I really liked working with him, he had trained in Europe. he brought good game to the group no doubt. The real problem is the bad stuff it makes evreyone think its all bad... sound familiar?

If someone were to say to me, "Hey TheMightyMcClaw, I think Taekwondo sucks univesally," I could respond, "While there is a lot of bad TKD, there is also good amongst it. For example, behold this highlight video of Serkan Yilmaz,:YouTube- [www.TurkishSamurai.com] Serkan Yilmaz Highlight #1
Look at 1:04, when he floors his opponent with a spinning back kick, a staple maneuver of TKD. Or 1:45, when he chains together high kicks in a manner that is a specialty of TKD fighters. In this manner, we can ascertain that some of the techniques of TKD are valid fighting maneuvers, even against highly trained athletes."
It took me five minutes to do that. I bet it took you more than five minutes to write your various diatribes about how I need to seek out a deadly Silat master and learn for myself the brutal pwnage of Javanese dance-fighting.
But, in case you forgot, it was Silat masters who convinced me that Silat was BS in the first place.But, because I'm an open-minded fellow and I don't want to use my own bad experience to justify a prejudice, I opened this thread in order to give fate a chance to convince me otherwise.
But instead, I've been met with more of the defensive BS and lack of willingness to "show, don't tell" that gave me my initial bad impression of Silat.