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Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

I agree with you...I have no problem letting him grow into that role....the problem is that we have 4.5 months to evaluate whether this is a role that he should be taking on. This very question should have been asked and answered last season or even the season before than....not the season before his contract is up.

At this point....given how DJ is doing at the point.....I am more inclined to throw Lance into the deep end of the pool now just to see if he can sink or swim as the Backup PG......rather than not FULLY know whether he can do it or not....and then sign him to a long term contract and HOPE that he figures it out.

The reality is that we no longer have the luxury of letting him "marinate", the FO has 4.5 months to evaluate whether him. The Coaching Staff either has to "stick him in the oven" to see if he turns out to be "Angus Steak" or leave him in the fridge and see if we've overpaid for "Hamburger".

Lance has one more year on his contract at below $1 million. We got time. Also if we would have "asked" last season or the season before he would have failed miserably.

Lance has the best court vision on the team and his ability to push the ball is second to none.

If he isn’t a point guard then Russell Westbrook isn’t a point guard (no I’m not trying to say Lance is anywhere close to Westbrook in talent but they share similar abilities).

Now as to how Frank has used him. This is tough because honestly the team is more fun to watch when he is on the floor and active but I also understand that he is still like that wild stallion that every now and then needs to be reigned in. Now where I question Frank is on how he let’s certain other members of our team get by with similar problems but doesn’t seem to pull them. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe the other players have had some years to earn a few mistakes.

In all honesty when Danny comes back I wouldn’t mind turning the second unit over to Lance and tell him to do his thing. Honestly if Frank insists on playing the bench as a unit then IMO the skill sets should be used as well and that means Lance being the facilitator.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?

I think it's peoples nice way of saying Lance is too dumb to run the point. Which could be true, but many of those same people thought he was worthless and untalented as early as this preseason so I don't listen to them when it comes to Lance.

The only thing that was holding Lance back on offense was shooting and turnovers. He's shored those areas of his game up, and now players have to respect him. That should only make his PG game better. If he can ever get the mental thing down he'd be match up nightmare for most teams at PG. There's only a few that could guard him in the post. (that's if we ever decide to develop our guys overall games which I don't have much hope for)

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

Lance has one more year on his contract at below $1 million. We got time. Also if we would have "asked" last season or the season before he would have failed miserably.

Oh.....I stand corrected about his contract. I thought that his contract was up after this season.

However, this does not change my preference to let him "sink or swim" at the backup PG spot now...rather than later.

This is because it is likely that we will need to fill the Backup PG spot during the 2013-2014 season. Given that it does not seem like DJ will be that backup PG beyond the 2012-2013 season ....this goes back to what I am saying about figuring out if Lance will be better suited to be the backup PG or not only.

My whole point is that we need to know this season as to whether Lance is better suited to be the backup PG or not....if the question has not been answered by then as to whether Lance can be the backup PG or not......then will the Pacers make a run at another Backup PG and possibly sign both Lance and this new Backup PG to a long term contract?

If Lance isn't best suited to be a backup PG, then great.....in the 2013-2014 offseason....the FO pursues another Backup PG for the long-term and then figures out what else to do with Lance ( if anything ).

If Lance is better suited to be a backup PG.....then there is no need to look for another backup PG in the 2013-2014 offseason.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?

This. Never understood why people want to try to explain away his obvious point guard skills.

I also keep wondering what people are realistically expecting out of Vogel as far as Lance's playing time? He's getting an average of almost 25 minutes of burn a game, vs. 11 last year (so far). He's come close this year in matching his entire FGA #s from last year (already).

He's now in the starting lineup, and depending on his play and matchup closes out a game.

While he's done well with that so far, some of you are placing a standard on his amount of utilization that very few 2nd rounders in their 3rd year can match.

He's also 22 years old.

Seems like very good evolution for him given the circumstances.

I do believe he'll step up to higher expectations though, as per McKeyFan's original point.

Lance has the best court vision on the team and his ability to push the ball is second to none.

If he isn’t a point guard then Russell Westbrook isn’t a point guard (no I’m not trying to say Lance is anywhere close to Westbrook in talent but they share similar abilities).

Now as to how Frank has used him. This is tough because honestly the team is more fun to watch when he is on the floor and active but I also understand that he is still like that wild stallion that every now and then needs to be reigned in. Now where I question Frank is on how he let’s certain other members of our team get by with similar problems but doesn’t seem to pull them. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe the other players have had some years to earn a few mistakes.

In all honesty when Danny comes back I wouldn’t mind turning the second unit over to Lance and tell him to do his thing. Honestly if Frank insists on playing the bench as a unit then IMO the skill sets should be used as well and that means Lance being the facilitator.

Sorry, perhaps my wording is poorly chosen.

If Lance is going to be a Player that requires the ball in his hands to be most effective.....either as someone that creates for others or for himself....that means ( at least to me ) that he has to be the primary ball handler when he's on the floor. Being the primary ball handler is something that he can't be if there is another PG ( such as GH or DJ ) on the floor with him at the same time.

This is one of the reasons why I am not very happy with the current role that he has on the Team. He's not very effective being the guy just standing at the 3pt line waiting for the ball and why I want to see what he can do as the primary ball handler when he is on the floor. IMHO...pairing him with GH or DJ forces him into a role that he is not best suited for.

If the Coaching Staff determines that he isn't best suited to be a guy that has the ball in his hands most of the time when he is on the floor, then the FO will know that they will need to pursue a Backup PG next season.

If the Coaching Staff determines that he is better suited to be a guy that has the ball in his hands most of the time when he is on the floor....then the FO shouldn't pursue another Player that will need to do the same....as in another Backup PG.

The Coaching Staff can't do either if he's not getting the opportunity to show it now. As many of us are suggesting....I want to give him the keys to the 2nd unit and see if he can do it or not. It's now or never IMHO....cuz I don't think that it's a good idea to pursue another Backup PG in the 2013-2014 offseason ( with a possible long-term contract ) and then find out later that Lance is best suited to be the guy handling the ball when he's on the court.

He may not be a true PG....but we have to find out if he's going to be the guy handling the ball all the time or not....which essentially means that he's going to be the "proverbial" PG when he's on the floor.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

If Lance is going to be a Player that requires the ball in his hands to be most effective.....either as someone that creates for others or for himself....that means ( at least to me ) that he has to be the primary ball handler when he's on the floor. Being the primary ball handler is something that he can't be if there is another PG ( such as GH or DJ ) on the floor with him at the same time.

This is one of the reasons why I am not very happy with the current role that he has on the Team. He's not very effective being the guy just standing at the 3pt line waiting for the ball and why I want to see what he can do as the primary ball handler when he is on the floor. IMHO...pairing him with GH or DJ forces him into a role that he is not best suited for.

If the Coaching Staff determines that he isn't best suited to be a guy that has the ball in his hands most of the time when he is on the floor, then the FO will know that they will need to pursue a Backup PG next season.

If the Coaching Staff determines that he is better suited to be a guy that has the ball in his hands most of the time when he is on the floor....then the FO shouldn't pursue another Player that will need to do the same....as in another Backup PG.

The Coaching Staff can't do either if he's not getting the opportunity to show it now. As many of us are suggesting....I want to give him the keys to the 2nd unit and see if he can do it or not. It's now or never IMHO....cuz I don't think that it's a good idea to pursue another Backup PG in the 2013-2014 offseason ( with a possible long-term contract ) and then find out later that Lance is best suited to be the guy handling the ball when he's on the court.

He may not be a true PG....but we have to find out if he's going to be the guy handling the ball all the time or not....which essentially means that he's going to be the "proverbial" PG when he's on the floor.

While I agree that he is better when he is controlling the ball, I disagree that you can't have two primary ballhandlers on the floor. Many teams in the NBA use this tactic, and many are successful with it. In fact, I would say the thing we need most of is more ball handlers (edging out better shooters). Having two ballhandlers also allows transition offense to run more fluidly.

Off the top of my head, here are some 2-PG pairings who play significant minutes together and have been successful recently:

Harden and Westbrook/Durant
Ginobili and Parker
Calderon and Lowry/Jarret Jack/TJ Ford
Chris Paul and Chauncey Billups
Kidd and Terry/Felton
2011-12 76ers
Montae Ellis and Curry/Jennings
Luke Ridnour and whatever guard he ever ends up playing with

It happens all over the league. You can have two ball-dominant guards who play together consistently. It gives you the freedom if one player gets stopped to swing the ball to the weak side and let him work on the hopefully overextended side of the defense. It gives you a change-of-pace in a lineup without having to make a substitution to institute. The concession is that you choose one to be the main ballhandler for the unit. BUt that doesn't mean the other guy gets stuck in a corner and forgotten.

This year it is clear they don't want that guy to be Lance. IMO, there's nothing wrong with not trusting 20-30 minutes of your offense to somebody getting their first full year of consistent playing time under there belt. Next year, I assume we don't re-sign Augustin and we pick up a veteran PG who can spot up from 3 to be our backup PG.

Lance has the best court vision on the team and his ability to push the ball is second to none.

If he isn’t a point guard then Russell Westbrook isn’t a point guard (no I’m not trying to say Lance is anywhere close to Westbrook in talent but they share similar abilities).

Now as to how Frank has used him. This is tough because honestly the team is more fun to watch when he is on the floor and active but I also understand that he is still like that wild stallion that every now and then needs to be reigned in. Now where I question Frank is on how he let’s certain other members of our team get by with similar problems but doesn’t seem to pull them. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe the other players have had some years to earn a few mistakes.

In all honesty when Danny comes back I wouldn’t mind turning the second unit over to Lance and tell him to do his thing. Honestly if Frank insists on playing the bench as a unit then IMO the skill sets should be used as well and that means Lance being the facilitator.

Mentality, the difference between being a PG and being just another wing player is all about mentality. Yeah, most of the time you have small SGs playing point, but that is just because of the lack of PGs.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

I think many are blinded by the concept of point guards because of how the modern point guards play the game. We see PGs driving fast inside, or doing some fancy passes, or doing some killer cross-over moves. But the concept of a point guard is to be the "floor general" of the team playing on court. That means as a floor general he should be in total control, the one that the other 4 players look up to for setting up plays, the one that sees the floor well and make plans and plays based on how opponents move on offense or defense. There's a reason why the likes of Kidd and Nash are well respected PGs up to now despite their age while the likes of Marbury are out of the league.

In my view, Lance can be a PG and has the necessary physical tools. But right now, he's still not having that commanding presence and control a PG needs to have. He needs to have a better feel of the team and needs to be more in control. For now, there's no problem settling for the role of an optional scorer but I think Vogel needs to tweak his plays to have Lance be an initiator on offense (some iso plays for him or him cutting inside to distract interior defense).

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Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

Lance needs to do a better job to earn more minutes and the staff needs to see if DJ will continue sucking in order for Lance to get more minutes. I can see DJ finding himself again and seeing Lance and / or Young minutes drop. I don't think Frank has any other choice this early in the season.

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Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

Lance needs to do a better job to earn more minutes and the staff needs to see if DJ will continue sucking in order for Lance to get more minutes. I can see DJ finding himself again and seeing Lance and / or Young minutes drop. I don't think Frank has any other choice this early in the season.

I guess I disagree with this. Lance HAS done a good job. His percentages are some of the best on the team. He has the highest +/- on the team. Others (ahem . . . Paul George . . . ahem) have not played very well but their minutes have not suffered.

Lance is being held to a different standard. I'd like to know why.

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

I guess I disagree with this. Lance HAS done a good job. His percentages are some of the best on the team. He has the highest +/- on the team. Others (ahem . . . Paul George . . . ahem) have not played very well but their minutes have not suffered.

Lance is being held to a different standard. I'd like to know why.

They brought DJ and Green in for a reason and the staff has to play them to this point. If things keep going the same way I think we will see Lance get more minutes which means DJ and / or Green getting less. If this is to develope, I suspect a trade of DJ and Young for someone else. But, for now the staff and FO has to know what they have and taking minutes away from DJ and Green isn't going to help at this point of the season. Things may change after the 15th. JMO

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Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

I guess I disagree with this. Lance HAS done a good job. His percentages are some of the best on the team. He has the highest +/- on the team. Others (ahem . . . Paul George . . . ahem) have not played very well but their minutes have not suffered.

Lance is being held to a different standard. I'd like to know why.

Not sure what standard you're referring to? So far, he's played roughly 25 minutes a game. Over double his last year's average.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

They brought DJ and Green in for a reason and the staff has to play them to this point. If things keep going the same way I think we will see Lance get more minutes which means DJ and / or Green getting less. If this is to develope, I suspect a trade of DJ and Young for someone else. But, for now the staff and FO has to know what they have and taking minutes away from DJ and Green isn't going to help at this point of the season. Things may change after the 15th. JMO

You're forgetting who Lance is usually getting pulled for. You know, the minimum contract guy who is getting more minutes over the last 10 games than any of our subs. The guy who takes all the bad shots that would get Lance benched. The man, the myth, the legend: Sam Young. This is the guy who is taking minutes away from players more important to the success of the Pacers.

I understand DJA has been bad this year, but he's averaging 13 mpg. You can't expect a guy who's used to being a starter to be able to work his way out of a slump when he's getting half his regular minutes & is losing many of said minutes so Vogel can reward Young for saving his life this offseason, because that's the only logical explanation for his extended PT and green light to shoot.

Not sure what standard you're referring to? So far, he's played roughly 25 minutes a game. Over double his last year's average.

It's not the minutes, it's the timing. He gets pulled when he's on fire, for example (see the Golden State game). All too often he is having an impact on the game and Vogel is like "nope, I can't stand for this. Lance! Sit! Sammy! Get in there!"

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

Not sure what standard you're referring to? So far, he's played roughly 25 minutes a game. Over double his last year's average.

He successfully competed for the starting role, and has kept it.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

All good points.

I would say that finishing is more important than starting, and Lance has been kept from doing so a few times. This last game, where he played extremely well, he was not allowed to finish and we lost the game, pretty handily.

Again, your points are well taken if this is simply and only about Lance's development. He surely is on a fast moving track given your perspective. But I guess I am also interested in the Pacers playing better basketball right now. And my opinion is that happens much more effectively, and they win more games, by playing Lance more than 25 minutes and by letting him finish.

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

Not sure what standard you're referring to? So far, he's played roughly 25 minutes a game. Over double his last year's average.

He successfully competed for the starting role, and has kept it.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

The standard comment is about Paul George and others being allowed to make a lot of mistakes and miss a lot of shots and keep their minutes. It seems Lance is in jeopardy of getting pulled if he makes one turnover or misses one shot, and almost certainly if there are two. That might be a slight exaggeration, but not by much.

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

It's not the minutes, it's the timing. He gets pulled when he's on fire, for example (see the Golden State game). All too often he is having an impact on the game and Vogel is like "nope, I can't stand for this. Lance! Sit! Sammy! Get in there!"

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

From my eyes (and of course this is up for individual interpretation), he got pulled when the GSW guards went all "Bulls on Parade" and we started to get torched defensively.

Sam has the size and defensive track record to potentially combat that. Of course, it didn't really affect the outcome in this case, but I could at least see the rationale in the decision.

To me, it was less of "Lance, time to pee in your cornflakes" and more "we're getting hurt here defensively and need to adjust".

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

The standard comment is about Paul George and others being allowed to make a lot of mistakes and miss a lot of shots and keep their minutes. It seems Lance is in jeopardy of getting pulled if he makes one turnover or misses one shot, and almost certainly if there are two. That might be a slight exaggeration, but not by much.

The team has been committed to keeping PG (for well over a year now) as the starting 2. The double standard you refer to exists all throughout the NBA it seems to me. Core members of the team get to play through their mistakes, and backups / temp leaders do not.

Lance hasn't yet earned that distinction, but he's well on his way. Remember how many games he's played in this role.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

From my eyes (and of course this is up for individual interpretation), he got pulled when the GSW guards went all "Bulls on Parade" and we started to get torched defensively.

Sam has the size and defensive track record to potentially combat that. Of course, it didn't really affect the outcome in this case, but I could at least see the rationale in the decision.

To me, it was less of "Lance, time to pee in your cornflakes" and more "we're getting hurt here defensively and need to adjust".

From my eyes (and this could also be misconstrued--and I am not being sarcastic, I liked your attitude), Lance was not the one being torched. PG was getting torched by Klay Thompson. Seth Curry didn't heat up till the latter part of the game when Lance was not in.

That's why I'm frustrated: PG plays poorly. Lance sits.

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

From my eyes (and this could also be misconstrued--and I am not being sarcastic, I liked your attitude), Lance was not the one being torched. PG was getting torched by Klay Thompson. Seth Curry didn't heat up till the latter part of the game when Lance was not in.

That's why I'm frustrated: PG plays poorly. Lance sits.

I think that's fair.. but in this specific example, what actually happened is that Lance and Paul got pulled at the same time. Go take a look at the play-by-play. Green and Sam came in on the same personal foul.

Additionally, if Lance was actually defending his contemporary, he would have been defending Klay. I think they switched most possessions and had PG defending the 2/perimeter, but played him offensively as the 3. Lance was left to defend Barnes, who had a quiet offensive game that night.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

The standard comment is about Paul George and others being allowed to make a lot of mistakes and miss a lot of shots and keep their minutes. It seems Lance is in jeopardy of getting pulled if he makes one turnover or misses one shot, and almost certainly if there are two. That might be a slight exaggeration, but not by much.

Could it be the others not only have earned more slack already, but also that they bring more to the table than Lance does? It's not like Lance can guard people the way Paul can (in general, obviously the GSW game not a great game), for example.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

Could it be the others not only have earned more slack already, but also that they bring more to the table than Lance does? It's not like Lance can guard people the way Paul can (in general, obviously the GSW game not a great game), for example.

That idea has some merit. However, recently I've seen Paul George make more defensive mistakes than Lance. Paul does have some nice moments on defense because of his size and athleticism, but I'm not convinced Lance won't develop similar strengths with more play behind his belt. He has a lot of physical talent as well.

Right now, I would say that if the offense is sputtering, Lance brings more to the table for the Pacers RIGHT NOW than PG does.

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Lance has the best court vision on the team and his ability to push the ball is second to none.

If he isn’t a point guard then Russell Westbrook isn’t a point guard (no I’m not trying to say Lance is anywhere close to Westbrook in talent but they share similar abilities).

Now as to how Frank has used him. This is tough because honestly the team is more fun to watch when he is on the floor and active but I also understand that he is still like that wild stallion that every now and then needs to be reigned in. Now where I question Frank is on how he let’s certain other members of our team get by with similar problems but doesn’t seem to pull them. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe the other players have had some years to earn a few mistakes.

In all honesty when Danny comes back I wouldn’t mind turning the second unit over to Lance and tell him to do his thing. Honestly if Frank insists on playing the bench as a unit then IMO the skill sets should be used as well and that means Lance being the facilitator.

Westbrook defensively is a pg probably(it's debatable I know) the best defender in the league at guarding the ball.

Lance to me can play pg offensively but defensively I have always viewed him as a 2nd wing guy. He guards the other teams 2nd best wing who ideally is an isolation player for example players who run off screens I wouldn't want Lance guarding(his lack of laterally speed kills him).

I love the scoring guard like Westbrook as long as they defend their spot Lance can play pg fine as long as he cross matches on defense. But I always preach "you are what you can defend"

But with our offense you can play "pg" at the SG spot. The problem is Vogel has Lance has the 5th option when he should be the 2nd only to Hill//West PnR/ 2-man game.

As a coach I would salivate at the ways you can use Lance(he gives you tons of options to run) but it doesn't seem our coach does.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

His defensive rotations on defense are making Tyler look adept. It wasn't his offense, it was his off the ball rotations. When the pnr is applied our opposite wing is suppose to crash the paint. He is not doing that. At all. You all seem to think that the pnr roll problems are solely on Hill and Roy. And that is not the case. pnr defense is on the entire team.

I agree with this, but I also agree with Eleazar that at this point I'd rather have his shooting and on-ball defense vs whatever we are calling Augustin's output.

DJ gets beat off the dribble almost as a reflex. Even when he picked Jack's pocket it was on the backside so that had he missed he would have given JJack the clear line right to the lane. I want to have DJ playing if he's playing well, but he's been such a problem so far that I just don't see why they keep working him when instead they could have Lance be out there as the bigger, physical PG on defense and a guy that can threaten on offense more.

Right now DJ is getting crushed on the offensive PnR, he never seems to find a smooth pass into the roll and often gets trapped rather than even finding his man on the PnPop.

BTW, I complained to Gnome about this (and a Warriors fan) during the game. 1st quarter DJ comes in with the game at 20-16 (Ian is hitting his 2nd FT when he enters). This turns into a 10 point deficit within 6 minutes of game, for a total swing of -14. That was nearly the game right there.

They pulled it back to down 6 by the time he left, and a small bit of that was DJ finally making a bucket. But less than 4 minutes after he'd left the Pacers had retaken the lead.

Ultimately they slumped to end the 1st half and got really tired/sloppy in the 3rd, but maybe if you keep that -14 closer to -4 then the main unit can get a buffer to withstand the 3rd quarter slump. And I feel like Lance can help with that more.

Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

That idea has some merit. However, recently I've seen Paul George make more defensive mistakes than Lance. Paul does have some nice moments on defense because of his size and athleticism, but I'm not convinced Lance won't develop similar strengths with more play behind his belt. He has a lot of physical talent as well.

Right now, I would say that if the offense is sputtering, Lance brings more to the table for the Pacers RIGHT NOW than PG does.

IMO, the contrasts between Lance and Paul are a fun example of how expectations and influence play and perspectives, both in fans, and the players themselves.

I think it's safe to say that Lance had an uphill battle coming into the start of the season. Lower expectations by fans and the team. Now that he struck pay dirt in the current circumstance, people are excited about his potential (he has exceeded expectations), and he's likely feeling pretty good about himself, which is reflected in his play. He plays loose and with passion/assertiveness.

Paul on the other hand came in with very high expectations (some even think he's on a trajectory towards stardom), and then got thrust into even higher expectations where he was looked at by many as a "replacement" for Granger. Almost impossible for him to live up to this expectation, and he's more or less lived up to that. He starts feeling bad about his play and he's likely in his own head.

What's funny is that they're both 22, they were both drafted in the same class, and both are playing pretty darn well if you step back from your expectations.