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Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

If you aren't prepared to give him a 3 year deal, then he obviously is not the correct choice. If Bird thinks like you do, then he needs to pick someone else.

If I were in charge, I would care what the players publically say about Vogel, but I would put a ton of weight in what they say to me in private. So as a fan I don't put too much weight into that the players say in the media, the players generally have to support him in the media.

Just a thought - don't feel strongly about this, just throwing it out there - So I think the more perhaps meaningful thing from Kravitz column yesterday was that no one has voiced their support off the record for Frank.

In general, Bird knows a lot more of what has gone on since Vogel took over, so I have no choice but to trust his judgment on whether Frank is the best choice for our team.

I think the same thing I thought all along. You have to do your due diligence. Frank has built a very solid case for himself, but he isn't a shoo-in by any means. He deserves the first and last interview, which he will get.

Obviously I was happy with the way the team competed against the Bulls. They are a better team. However, I don't think any team that leads by double digits in the fourth quarter three times and gets beat can say they took advantage of a masterful coaching job.

Every player I've talked to said they would be really happy for Frank and his guys if he gets the job. They like him. That doesn't necessarily mean they think he is a great coach. They'll play hard for him. That isn't even a question.

But could someone like Mike Brown do at least as good of a job, while getting them to play hard also? I think so.

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

Here’s some potentially sobering news for the *refreshingly revived Bulls.

If the Indiana Pacers players have their way, we’ve seen the last of “interim” head coach Frank Vogel.

“We want that ‘interim’ taken off his title,” said forward Danny Granger, the team’s leading scorer.

“Management usually asks for the players’ input on important decisions like this,” Granger said. “I expect [team president Larry Bird] to do so again. If he gives us who we want, he’ll make Vogel the full-time head coach — not interim. Vogel really improved our play overall. Of course, that’s a decision that management makes. And they don’t always make it the way the players want.”

The bad news for the Bulls is that Vogel very well could be around to make the Pacers an even more formidable foe in the Eastern Conference in general and the Central Division in particular.

Vogel, 37, an assistant for eight years, replaced fired predecessor Jim O’Brien when the Pacers were 17-27 and guided them to a 20-18 finish that resulted in the team’s first playoff appearance in five years.

Two wins against Bulls

Under Vogel, the Pacers proved especially menacing to the Bulls. If not for losing to the Pacers, the Bulls would have swept the Central Division 16-0 for the first time in team history and would have enjoyed a 4-0 sweep in the first round of the playoffs and gotten three extra days of rest.

Because the Central Division was the weakest in the league, the Bulls ran away with it and finished with a 25-game lead over the Pacers, the second-place team in the division. Fattening up on Central opponents greatly helped the Bulls finish with a 62-20 record, the best in the league and the franchise’s best since the 1998 NBA-championship team.

The Bulls still had a 47-19 record against the rest of the league. The Pacers were 0-3 against the Bulls before winning the last game of the teams’ regular-season series 115-108 in overtime and then played the Bulls tough in five playoff games, beating them once in their Eastern Conference quarterfinal series.

Hansbrough, Hibbert agree

“I want to see him back as head coach,” said starting forward *Tyler Hansbrough, who wasn’t *being given the playing time Bird believed O’Brien should have given him.

“I definitely like playing for him. He gave me a shot. He let me play basketball, and we became a team under him. We gained an identity of being tough and physical —
a scrappy team. That’s something we really haven’t developed in the past.”

Center Roy Hibbert, whose confidence was believed to have been bruised by O’Brien’s public berating, also wants Vogel back full-time.

“He gave us a lot more confidence as a team,” Hibbert said. “We felt we could compete with anyone — and we did.”

Of course, I wouldn’t have expected Vogel to answer any differently when I asked him if Bird had given him any hope that he would be retained full-time.

“Larry Bird’s doing the right thing,” Vogel said. “[He] told me when I took over that we would talk when the season ended after we have had time to evaluate everything, and that’s the plan.”

Bird didn’t say anything about Vogel’s future in Thursday’s end-of-the-season news conference. But when he talks to his players, he’ll find them heavily supportive of Vogel.

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

We lead by double digits in the 4th quarter twice...got beat once, and won once.

Whatever it was, we had more than a chance to win the first 4 games and came away in a 3-1 hole.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be happy with Frank. I think he's a fine coach. I don't think he's such a home run that there is no reason to even talk to anybody else.

I don't think any other teams are beating down on Frank's door to hire him. He'll probably get a look by other teams, but I don't think we need to worry about someone else swooping in and stealing him out from under us while the front office does their job.

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

Also, Posey said he wasn't interested in becoming President of Vogel's fan club.

Haha, Solo should feel fortunate if he stumbles onto a roster next year. Pretty much the last guy in the league that should be talking coaching preferences.

I don't blame Posey, Vogel doesn't play him and JOB did. If he didn't have such a bloated contract we could trade him. Maybe he'll take a buyout...or maybe he'll sit on the bench and make $6.9 mil...I think I know which one he'll choose.

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

I'm going off 2 things:

1) Results
2) Gut feel

His results were impressive. The only knock on him was his closing out of games. Even then, the few people still having lingering doubts about that particular aspect are forgetting that he's 37, and he was thrown into a sinking ship 40 games ago, and he was facing the "best team in the league". I'm willing to bet he figures out the "close-out" thing. He barely had time to install and gain experience in making those decision, and he strikes me as someone who will figure it out. Which leads me to my second point:

Gut feel. I watch this guy, I listen to what he says, how he says it, and the feeling is there. He is very confident and good at what he does, and the things that he needs to work on, he'll figure it out. You can tell he's just one of those types of people. If he made a mistake, he's going to correct it. He makes good adjustments. He has the intelligence, he's willing to adjust, he communicates extremely well. I think he's going to be a very good HC in this league. I've not seen an interim coach come in with his demeanor maybe ever. His confidence and presense is overwhelmingly strong.

Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 04-29-2011 at 11:02 AM.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

I love how it's somehow considered valid criticism of a coach to knock him for 'only' getting his 37 win team to get a double digit lead in the 4th of two different games against a 62 win team, and in one case they lost the game (the road game), and that he lost 1-4. If that's the best knock you have on him, you don't really have a knock on him IMO. That series was far closer than it had any business being, and Vogel was a huge reason for that. Enough said on that.

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

Whatever it was, we had more than a chance to win the first 4 games and came away in a 3-1 hole.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be happy with Frank. I think he's a fine coach. I don't think he's such a home run that there is no reason to even talk to anybody else.

I don't think any other teams are beating down on Frank's door to hire him. He'll probably get a look by other teams, but I don't think we need to worry about someone else swooping in and stealing him out from under us while the front office does their job.

This is a huge decision. No reason to rush it.

There's a big difference though between leading by double digits in two games and splitting them and leading by double digits in 3 games and losing them all.

Games 2 and 3 were toss ups. Games 1 and 4 were our games to win, we split them. Game 5 was a blow out.

I agree we need to interview others, but I don't like Mike Brown as the guy to take us to the next level.

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

If you aren't prepared to give him a 3 year deal, then he obviously is not the correct choice. If Bird thinks like you do, then he needs to pick someone else.

I don't agree with that at all. There's nothing wrong with making someone prove themselves. We didn't make JOB prove himself, and we ended up stuck with him for 3 years because Bird had to "show resolve and confidence in his decision" which I'm guessing is at the root of your thought process, which in hindsight, was a mistake in the long-term.

If I were in charge, I would care what the players publically say about Vogel, but I would put a ton of weight in what they say to me in private. So as a fan I don't put too much weight into that the players say in the media, the players generally have to support him in the media.

Just a thought - don't feel strongly about this, just throwing it out there - So I think the more perhaps meaningful thing from Kravitz column yesterday was thatno one has voiced their support off the record for Frank.

Kravitz isn't a fly on every wall in the organization, he doesn't know for sure if no one has privately endorsed him. And there is plenty of instances where players have publically endorsed him, so right there Kravitz' claim isn't correct. Think you're reading into something that isn't there.

It's hard to imagine Granger saying publically, "We want that ‘interim’ taken off his title. If he gives us who we want, he’ll make Vogel the full-time head coach — not interim. Vogel really improved our play overall" and then turning around and going into Bird's office and saying "Larry, we gotta get rid of this joker." The bolded parts indicate Granger speaking on behalf of the entire team.

Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 04-29-2011 at 11:17 AM.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

I love how it's somehow considered valid criticism of a coach to knock him for 'only' getting his 37 win team to get a double digit lead in the 4th of two different games against a 62 win team, and in one case they lost the game (the road game), and that he lost 1-4. If that's the best knock you have on him, you don't really have a knock on him IMO. That series was far closer than it had any business being, and Vogel was a huge reason for that. Enough said on that.

It wasn't meant as criticism. I don't have a knock on him, and I definitely wasn't trying to knock him in fashion. I'm saying I don't believe that doing those things makes him the only candidate worthy of an interview.

Frank had a great start to his career. I wasn't trying to say anything differently. If the Pacers go in another direction, Frank will get other chances. If the Pacers decide to retain him, I'll be more than happy with that as well.

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

Kravitz isn't a fly on every wall in the organization, he doesn't know for sure if no one has privately endorsed him. And there is plenty of instances where players have publically endorsed him, so right there Kravitz' claim isn't correct. Think you're reading into something that isn't there.

Kravitz knows everything that Mike Wells knows, that is where Kravy gets his information from. My only point here is that the net is a little wider than what Kravitz has heard, it also includes Wells

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

Regardless, Kravitz said "on or off the court", and that wasn't true. There *have* been public endorsements by the players. So his statement is already half-way invalidated. And yet... you're taking it to heart. That's my point... I wouldn't read much into the statement.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

Regardless, Kravitz said "on or off the court", and that wasn't true. There *have* been public endorsements by the players. So his statement is already half-way invalidated. And yet... you're taking it to heart. That's my point... I wouldn't read much into the statement.

well we have no idea what has been said off the record, none at all. I might be willing to take Kravitz word on that part, but yes Kravy is wrong about the public part. So if you want to throw the whole thing out I have no problem

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Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

I also think that the players would be inclined to make positive statements about Vogel in the press even if privately they weren't so sure about whether or not he should be their coach. They aren't going to throw him under the bus while everyone is talking about how the Pacers exceeded expectations in the media.

But if they were saying these things publicly just to avoid causing any issues in the media I would expect something more general and impersonal along the lines of "He did a really good job."

But what we are getting is some gushing like "Frank for coach of the year!" and strongly worded personalized statements from the de-facto leader of the team like "We want that ‘interim’ taken off his title. If he gives us who we want, he’ll make Vogel the full-time head coach — not interim," and blunt statements like "I want to see him back as head coach."

I think that difference is significant and that's why I don't feel comfortable simply dismissing this as "things players say in the press to toe the line."

Last edited by gummy; 04-29-2011 at 02:40 PM.

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"Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire"Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others." - William Greider

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

I don't. I would consider the players opinion of their coach a very valuable part of the decision making process. Who would you work harder for: a guy who gets you believe your best interests are the team's best interests, or a guy who plays favorites and is in it for him self?

I've seen many a business run into the ground by management that ignored their most valuable employees opinions.

A guy that plays favorites and is in it for himself ? Is Jim O'Brien a
cantidate to be re-hired ?

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

well we have no idea what has been said off the record, none at all. I might be willing to take Kravitz word on that part, but yes Kravy is wrong about the public part. So if you want to throw the whole thing out I have no problem

Kravitz has admitted that he can hardly work Twitter. I'm not surprised that he wouldn't know about these public remarks.

"Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

I don't think Granger would have gone on like he did if the feeling wasn't genuine. He could have just said that Frank did really well and got us where he wanted us to be, or something to that effect.

Frank doesn't need to be a great coach yet. He needs to bring to the table what other peers would bring, and have the potential to do great things, which I think he has done. Three year deal is what he deserves; anyone worth their salt would deserve a three year deal. Anything less than that is a vote of no-confidence.

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

"Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

"And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
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Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

Anybody that puts the blame for us losing that series on Vogel needs to take a serious look at our roster again. We have several good players, but we are one of the least talented teams in the league. We don't have anybody who would qualify as a star (and yes, I'm including Granger), and we have one of the youngest teams in the league. Vogel put us in a very good position to win 4 of 5 of those games, and our youth and inexperience lost it for us.

And we played our guts out against a playoff hardened #1 seed, with the presumptive league MVP and Coach of the Year, and nearly beat them. If you ask me, Vogel couldn't have done a better job. With a full summer and an entire season, presumably with a more talented and experienced roster next year, I would expect us to be able to win a series in the playoffs next year.

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

There's a big difference though between leading by double digits in two games and splitting them and leading by double digits in 3 games and losing them all.

Games 2 and 3 were toss ups. Games 1 and 4 were our games to win, we split them. Game 5 was a blow out.

I agree we need to interview others, but I don't like Mike Brown as the guy to take us to the next level.

Ding, ding ding...If LeBron James, who is supposed to be the "best" player in the NBA, couldn't win one with him, and LeBron pretty much quit on him in that last playoff series and with the decision, do you really want to be stuck in mediocrity forever? You think he would do better than Vogel did? Imagine if Frank had LeBron with this supporting cast...We would win it all every year probably, and I don't even like LeBron...

Re: How many players have publicly supported Frank coming back so far?

Our most important players want him back, and he has already proven he can lead this team to a winning record and he has proven that he can compete with the "best team in the NBA" in a playoff series. Sure we lost 4-1, but I seriously think the refs handed them at least game one and that was the blow that would eventually sink the ship. Had we won game one this thing could have turned out different.

Game 1 hurt more than any Pacers game I've watched in a decade and I know the players felt it too. The series was over after that loss. I know more "what-ifs" but the refelction on it is important because I think the game should be reviewed by the proper authorities. I have it on DVR and it is sickening to watch. If this game wasn't fixed then I guess I really am just nuts.

Bring Vogel Back. Case closed. And hopefully the league does away with these slop job calls or at least starts giving us our due. I'd rather it be a fair, level playing field, but with the NBA that is the farthest thing from the case. So all I can really ever hope for in winning a championship with Indy is one of our players becomes a future hall of famer, and we start getting the calls.