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My question is more along the lines of WHAT makes Makishima better/more respectable than some cutthroat? The fact that he talks fancy and has ludicriously expensive first edition copies of 1984?
I'm quite aware of that point, and I've had it in the back of my mind. All Science fiction is fundamentally about our present day life. To make the issues more relatable to us...which is probably one reason I roll my eyes at people who go "Well if only Makishima wasn't in this horrible future dystopia! Then he wouldn't have to kill!"

Well, if that's your question, I have nothing. Whether a person is respectable or not is entirely up to the person's subjective judgement. But I was under the impression that were discussing his motives rather than the moral reprehensibility of his actions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Here's the thing you don't get though. I AM seeing Makishima's perspective on things...but for me, seeing that perspective from someone like that just emphasizes the need for them to be killed/incapacitated immediately.

Right. I'd agree with you personally on that, I wasn't even defending him in the first place. All I want to do here is to discuss a character's actions without bringing moral biases into the picture.

He's an irredeemable monster that resorts to murder to further his plans, we all get that. Its just that he just doesn't kill for the sake of itself. That's the only thing I want to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

There is a difference, but why should I care about the difference?

For somebody who has to intervene or do damage control for the victims, what's the difference between a mass murderer who sadistically derived pleasure from killing, and a politically motivated mass Murderer like Brevik? Is Brevik somehow more dignified because he wrote a manifesto?

The difference is the motivation, and that's already a huge one by itself.

One is not necessarily better than the other, but the difference has to be drawn between the two categories. Each interpretation creates a drastically different picture of the character we're trying to analyze. It does no good to study a character if we simply lump all mass murderers into the same psychological profile. Now that would be naive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

What makes you think I don't understand that Makishima has a different perspective on all of this? That's lunacy. What you seem to be doing though, is assuming that acknowledging that someone has a different perspective on morality than you means that you HAVE to take it into account.

Again, the objective here is to analyze the character. Understanding the character's perspective is a necessity for that, and propagating generalizations borne from moral bias is counterproductive to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

If a hungry tiger or a man with a knife is lunging towards you, do you take it's perspective into account before deciding to raise and fire your rifle? Only if you're a weirdo who doesn't mind dying to satisfy a tigers hunger or whatever motivation the guy with the knife had.

Moral relativism is only useful when it's used as a tool to help foster tolerance between different groups that have different world views, but that are capable of peaceful coexistence. It's nonsensical navel gazing when coexistence is impossible. There are allot of times to put yourself in another parties shoes, but not when they're trying to off you or somebody you like.
I'm not sure what that'd accomplish. As a character, my assessment of Makishima is pretty much the same, if more detached.

Given that we (probably) aren't on the receiving end of a hungry jaw or a sharp knife at the moment, I'd say we can afford to take such liberties when analyzing his character here on this forum.

The thing about appreciating fiction is that it is mostly an exercise of putting yourself in the shoes of another character, understanding his/her motivations and mental process to the fullest. For me, moral relativity serves as a means of appreciating the beauty found in fiction. It's not something so simple that you can just insert yourself in a character's shoes and then judging everything from your own perspective. But then, maybe it's just me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Don't get me wrong. I LIKE Makishima as a villain character. But he's the kind of villain that's good simply because of how monstrous he is to me personally.

I agree with your sentiment, but I live by the belief that even the villains we perceive to be monstrous can be analyzed, reduced to their basic psychological elements.

__________________

"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."

I agree with Qilin. Aside from this episode, we haven't seen Makishima killing anyone else. If he hasn't and he makes other people do this, then he doesn't derive any pleasure from it. I think this fact kind of makes him "harmless" . He won't go on murdering spree around the city. This is what normal and pathetic murderers do, within the anime. He's not taking lives just because of some emotion he has, when he kills, he kills to test and make a point, as far as we've seen. For me this is far better than being a mere murderer who's taking lives just because he wants to. It is too simple. If Makishima is supposed to be presented as a great villain, if he kills for pleasure, this will ruin his character, I think. He's something more than just a killer. That's why he's interesting.

I... don't quite understand the deal with the current society suppressing people. In the end, it only suppresses violent tendencies. So I don't quite understand the complaints about Makishima "focusing only on violent people" when violent people are the only ones being suppressed in the first place.

You should listen closely to all those spiels by Rikako and Senguji (the cyborg) sprinkled all over the past few episodes to get the general picture. There's the whole deal with society becoming more and more dependent on technology and the conveniences provided by the system. It's not exactly an overt sort of suppression. I'd say it's closer to a slow, gradual oppression that sucks away the individual's ability to think for themselves.

All anyone has to do to live without trouble is to follow the path designated by the system. People enter society under the illusion that everything will be fine as long as they simply do what the system tells them to do, hence the reliance on the Psycho-Pass and the Dominators. As a result, the ability to make decisions is gradually eroded away. As Senguji puts, all that's left is to mechanize the human brain, so that even the act of thinking will be directly controlled by the system.

__________________

"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."

I agree with Qilin. Aside from this episode, we haven't seen Makishima killing anyone else. If he hasn't and he makes other people do this, then he doesn't derive any pleasure from it. I think this fact kind of makes him "harmless" .

That's absurd. Makishima and his buddies have directly and materially aided many murderers to carry out their crimes. To claim the fact that he usually observes means he's uninvolved is displaying about as sophisticated a capacity for abstract thought as a dog.

Also. Is EVERYONE forgetting how Makishima has always been mentioning how he's *entertained* by watching the people he supports do what they do? That, and the fact that he often disposes of them for being *boring* rather blatantly categorizes him as finding pleasure in doing these kind of things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakuramariks

He won't go on murdering spree around the city. This is what normal and pathetic murderers do, within the anime. He's not taking lives just because of some emotion he has, when he kills, he kills to test and make a point, as far as we've seen. For me this is far better than being a mere murderer who's taking lives just because he wants to. It is too simple. If Makishima is supposed to be presented as a great villain, if he kills for pleasure, this will ruin his character, I think. He's something more than just a killer. That's why he's interesting.

What you're saying is nonsensical. Of course Makishima kills for emotional reasons. He gave a very specific one when he arranged to have Rikako killed. Because he began to find her * boring*. Why did he decide to slice Yuki's throat? Because Akane had *disappointed* him. In fact, the entire reason that Makishima does what he does, is because he has an emotional investment in doing it.

Saying that Makishima doesn't have emotional involvement in his crimes is preposterous.

That's absurd. Makishima and his buddies have directly and materially aided many murderers to carry out their crimes. To claim the fact that he usually observes means he's uninvolved is displaying about as sophisticated a capacity for abstract thought as a dog.

Also. Is EVERYONE forgetting how Makishima has always been mentioning how he's *entertained* by watching the people he supports do what they do? That, and the fact that he often disposes of them for being *boring* rather blatantly categorizes him as finding pleasure in doing these kind of things.

However, these emotional reactions of his do not necessarily refer to the act of murder in itself. Take note that all his subjects so far have been noted to be able to think beyond the existing system to varying extents. He's like this trollish gamer that tries to look for the bugs and glitches in each game he's playing. Once he discovers the limits of the toy he's currently playing with, he has no qualms about discarding it in favor of finding a new toy to play with.

My opinion remains unchanged. He's a killer, but his goal is directed more towards "breaking the game" than the cruder sort of pleasure one might find from committing murder.

__________________

"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."

A killer with stronger urge to find pleasure in what he does, would be more involved with the killing - he will do it himself. He is not killing just for the sake of the killing itself, for the pleasure itself.
That's what I'm trying to say. Killing for pleasure or another strong emotion is a way for the killer to fill a void in himself, to feel something or to let out some kind of emotion he has (for example, one can kill old women who remind him of his abusive mother from his childhood). Makishima doesn't do that.

However, these emotional reactions of his do not necessarily refer to the act of murder in itself. Take note that all his subjects so far have been noted to be able to think beyond the existing system to varying extents. He's like this trollish gamer that tries to look for the bugs and glitches in each game he's playing. Once he discovers the limits of the toy he's currently playing with, he has no qualms about discarding it in favor of finding a new toy to play with.

My opinion remains unchanged. He's a killer, but his goal is directed more towards "breaking the game" than the cruder sort of pleasure one might find from committing murder.

Which really doesn't make him that much different than a regular sadistic murderer honestly. When you break it down to basic neural chemistry, wanting to do anything bombastically comes down to your brain seeking a dopamine rush. Regardless of the particular way Makishima gets satisfaction out of what he does, the end game isn't really chemically different than that of a psycho axe murderer. He gets a chemical high, and it makes his brain satisfied.

The only difference is the sophistication which Makishima derives satisfaction out of murder. That's why directly bashing someones head in doesn't do it for Makishima. That's why he likes to toy around with other guys who do the killing, before he gets bored with them.

To get Makishima's character, I think it's important to remember who's writing this anime - Gen Urobuchi.

There are certain character types that Gen has a fondness for, and likes coming back to time and time again. I think this becomes clear if you compare Madoka Magica to Fate/Zero to Psycho-Pass (particularly at a character-to-character level).

One such character type is the guy that believes "The Ends Justify the Means". For one character, "The Ends" is combating entropy. For another, "The Ends" is achieving lasting, universal peace. For Makishima, "The Ends" is revealing the Sibyl system for the monstrous farce that it is (at least as Makishima views it).

At a surface level, what Makishima is doing is obviously harmful and horrible. Yuki just seemed to be a fairly normal girl for her age. There's certainly no indication that she deserved to die. She's a tragic casualty in Makishima's game against the Sibyl system, and so its understandable that we would think ill of Makishima for killing her. It's probably good that many here take great exception to Makishima's "means".

But we shouldn't lose sight of his "ends" - Of what is the primary motivation for him. Now, Makishima isn't a complete revolutionary. He doesn't seem to have any particular system that he wants to replace the Sibyl system with. But I do think he wants to tear down the Sibyl system as much as he possibly can. I think this goal motivates him, and pushes him onward.

Makishima probably thinks that what he is doing is right, in the "grander scheme of things". I think that's precisely why his crime coefficient is so low - Because he thinks that what he's doing is justified by the greater goal of ripping into an oppressive system that is deadening the spirit of humanity. Unlike most criminals, who at some level recognize the wrongness of their actions regardless of how they try to rationalize it, Makishima truly believes that the sacrifice of people like Yuki is morally justifiable.

It's fine to hate Makishima just as it's fine to hate a certain alien in Madoka Magica. But to understand such characters, you can't allow such hate to cloud your assessment of them. In their minds, what they're doing is right, and that's key to understanding these characters, imo.

Mind, it's interesting that for someone who has been hinted as being a revolutionary, all the things that Makishima are doing seem to be rather small time in the grand scheme of the things. Traumatizing rookie police inspectors and allowing a small number of serial killers to have fun in secret doesn't exactly seem like something that fundamentally shakes the foundation of an entire society...unless of course contagious crime coefficient is really as bad as it's been hinted at.

Makishima's talk makes it sound like at times he's grooming these killers to be something...is he trying to amass a small army of perfect(in his mind anyway) psycho murderers who he can unleash in the series climax, causing a wildstorm of anarchy causing contagious crime coefficient?

...actually I think those might be ends that most people wouldn't agree with either

Which really doesn't make him that much different than a regular sadistic murderer honestly. When you break it down to basic neural chemistry, wanting to do anything bombastically comes down to your brain seeking a dopamine rush. Regardless of the particular way Makishima gets satisfaction out of what he does, the end game isn't really chemically different than that of a psycho axe murderer. He gets a chemical high, and it makes his brain satisfied.

What I'm trying to say is that it isn't the killing that gives him the "dopamine rush". The killing is inconsequential, a means to an end. It's the idea of breaking the constructs upheld by society that gets stimulates his emotions.

Also:

Spoiler for a short note:

Obviously, if you want to break things down to the biological level, a lot of things will appear identical. Oh, yes. We, human beings, are all just looking for that one thing that stimulates us, that "dopamine rush", so what makes us so different from the very killers we condemn? What does it matter if that "thing" is killing people? Is it really any different from killing a cockroach? Aren't humans just different configurations of atoms compared to cockroaches? How about those people who find their "dopamine rush" from playing the piano, are they killers too?

Look, if you reduce anything to a certain point, any preconceived notion you have will cease to make sense.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

To get Makishima's character, I think it's important to remember who's writing this anime - Gen Urobuchi.

There are certain character types that Gen has a fondness for, and likes coming back to time and time again. I think this becomes clear if you compare Madoka Magica to Fate/Zero to Psycho-Pass (particularly at a character-to-character level).

One such character type is the guy that believes "The Ends Justify the Means". For one character, "The Ends" is combating entropy. For another, "The Ends" is achieving lasting, universal peace. For Makishima, "The Ends" is revealing the Sibyl system for the monstrous farce that it is (at least as Makishima views it).

At a surface level, what Makishima is doing is obviously harmful and horrible. Yuki just seemed to be a fairly normal girl for her age. There's certainly no indication that she deserved to die. She's a tragic casualty in Makishima's game against the Sibyl system, and so its understandable that we would think ill of Makishima for killing her. It's probably good that many here take great exception to Makishima's "means".

But we shouldn't lose sight of his "ends" - Of what is the primary motivation for him. Now, Makishima isn't a complete revolutionary. He doesn't seem to have any particular system that he wants to replace the Sibyl system with. But I do think he wants to tear down the Sibyl system as much as he possibly can. I think this goal motivates him, and pushes him onward.

Makishima probably thinks that what he is doing is right, in the "grander scheme of things". I think that's precisely why his crime coefficient is so low - Because he thinks that what he's doing is justified by the greater goal of ripping into an oppressive system that is deadening the spirit of humanity. Unlike most criminals, who at some level recognize the wrongness of their actions regardless of how they try to rationalize it, Makishima truly believes that the sacrifice of people like Yuki is morally justifiable.

It's fine to hate Makishima just as it's fine to hate a certain alien in Madoka Magica. But to understand such characters, you can't allow such hate to cloud your assessment of them. In their minds, what they're doing is right, and that's key to understanding these characters, imo.

Great job articulating a lot of what I was trying to express, though I admit we have some slight divergences in our interpretations of Makishima's character. For one thing, I'm not entirely convinced that he has such a noble goal as freeing humanity from the oppressive system. Yes, he wants to tear down the system, but not for humanity's sake, but for his own ego. He perceives the system and plots destroy it not only because it is an abomination to his own perception of humanity, but because he can.

The way I see it, he's closer in character to Johan Liebert (Monster) and the Joker (The Dark Knight) than Lelouch (Code Geass). But then, we're only halfway through the show, so I'm fine with waiting and seeing.

__________________

"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."

Obviously, if you want to break things down to the biological level, a lot of things will appear identical. Oh, yes. We, human beings, are all just looking for that one thing that stimulates us, that "dopamine rush", so what makes us so different from the very killers we condemn? What does it matter if that "thing" is killing people? Is it really any different from killing a cockroach? Aren't humans just different configurations of atoms compared to cockroaches? How about those people who find their "dopamine rush" from playing the piano, are they killers too?

Look, if you reduce anything to a certain point, any preconceived notion you have will cease to make sense.

If anything, you're clearly showing that there's limits to how far we can or should "reduce things". You're showing that there's limits to how much importance should be placed in material reality alone.

If anything, you're clearly showing that there's limits to how far we can or should "reduce things". You're showing that there's limits to how much importance should be placed in material reality alone.

That was exactly what I was pointing out. Did I not express that with the last sentence?

I was trying to point out the logical absurdity of explaining human psychology from a purely materialistic perspective.

__________________

"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."

For one thing, I'm not entirely convinced that he has such a noble goal as freeing humanity from the oppressive system. Yes, he wants to tear down the system, but not for humanity's sake, but for his own ego. He perceives the system and plots destroy it not only because it is an abomination to his own perception of humanity, but because he can.

To be clear, I don't think altruism plays much role in Makishima's motivations. It's not so much that he wants to make a "better society" that would benefit people more. I think Makishima is driven by his own conception of "truth", particularly truth when it comes to the human condition. I think he views the Sybil system as a sort of existential threat to the very essence of humanity. Again, I think he views it as a monstrous farce.

Mainly to satisfy his own personal sense of humanity, Makishima wants to tear down the Sibyl system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qilin

That was exactly what I was pointing out. Did I not express that with the last sentence?

I was trying to point out the logical absurdity of explaining human psychology from a purely materialistic perspective.

You should listen closely to all those spiels by Rikako and Senguji (the cyborg) sprinkled all over the past few episodes to get the general picture. There's the whole deal with society becoming more and more dependent on technology and the conveniences provided by the system. It's not exactly an overt sort of suppression. I'd say it's closer to a slow, gradual oppression that sucks away the individual's ability to think for themselves.

All anyone has to do to live without trouble is to follow the path designated by the system. People enter society under the illusion that everything will be fine as long as they simply do what the system tells them to do, hence the reliance on the Psycho-Pass and the Dominators. As a result, the ability to make decisions is gradually eroded away. As Senguji puts, all that's left is to mechanize the human brain, so that even the act of thinking will be directly controlled by the system.

It's people's own choice to be so dependent on the technology and the medication. That's not oppression or suppression.

Makishima probably thinks that what he is doing is right, in the "grander scheme of things". I think that's precisely why his crime coefficient is so low

Not completely. If you may recall from his gloating towards Akane, his CC has always been low like this. This "fight against the system" could be merely the latest in his crusades that his body has convinced him is Right.

It's people's own choice to be so dependent on the technology and the medication. That's not oppression or suppression.

I don't think you get the subtle corrupting influence that something ubiquitous (like the Sibyl system) can have.

Consider the history of slavery, for example. Slavery was "normal" and "part of life" and in many areas it was commonplace, so for thousands of years relatively few people seriously questioned it. Slavery today is now widely looked down upon, and completely rejected in most 1st-world nations. But it was not always so.

Did that mean that people living in past eras were all freely choosing slavery over no slavery? Or did it mean that people living in past eras were too busy going about their normal daily lives to concern themselves with something that was an entrenched part of society?

Makishima's talk makes it sound like at times he's grooming these killers to be something...is he trying to amass a small army of perfect(in his mind anyway) psycho murderers who he can unleash in the series climax, causing a wildstorm of anarchy causing contagious crime coefficient?

Then maybe he should try to, well, amass them, instead of treating the whole thing like a take a penny, leave a penny...

Re: Makishima's motivations.

It seems like an ego thing to him. "Look at me as I rise above the sheeple!" (by exploiting flaws in the system to commit pointless acts of horror.)

Shogo is a genius and a psychopath. He has a complete lack of empathy and has completely dehumanized the human race.

He can do these cruel things because he has convinced himself that he's better than humanity as a whole. He doesn't feel remorse because he sees himself killing an animal whenever he kills another person. This is the impression of the Senguji.

I bet he's not the final villain. The Sybil system was created to protect the elite and I bet the politicians are immune to it. The creator may still be around.

In the end I see him getting killed by...

- the investigators siccing the "joker" on him. It's that crazy dude who tattooed muscles on his body. They may unleash a horrible monster to hunt him down.
- he gets drugged... he succumbs to emotions in an altered state of mind. "Scarecrows fear gas."
- he breaks when he finally feels pain.
- he commits suicide
- he gets killed by the creator of the Sybil system.

In the end. Shogo doesn't have a practical goal. The dark shogun who designed the system will come out and end him, I anticipate. The guy who created the system did it to control mankind and he did it for power. The power hungry guy will win but in the end his system may crumble when all hell breaks loose.

In the end, Shogo gets killed by the being of pure logic or the eugenicist/the guy who wants to engineer the human race.