How am to be expected to be able to function in this kind of weather? It saps my morale like Sawsbucks does Spore. Every so often you get some sunshine, but guess what? It starts raining again! I know your Parasect and Kabutops really like this weather, but it is threatening the LIFE of my poor Charizard. And lots not even MENTION of what its doing to Solarbeam usage.

So, with this in mind, I did some investigating. And I think I found the source of the problem.

THIS MOTHERFUCKER.

I have not a single doubt left in my mind that it is this thing that is causing all this damn rain. Some research on Marriland's Pokedex told me that it's called "Kyogre." When I went around asking about Kyogre, I got responses like, "it can't be stopped" and "it can 2HKO a Blissey with a Special attack!" WHAT UTTER HOGWASH. Only the mighty Porygon-z is capable of such a feat (what's psyshock/strike?) Despite the rumors, I know this beast had to be stopped. My basement was starting to flood and, like any body of water, I've got fucking Magikarp down there already.

Something has to be done. But what can be done.

HOW CAN SOMEONE POSSIBLY BEAT THIS MONSTER?

(this thread is for discussing both conventional and unconventional ways of beating arguably the best Pokemon in the game, I just like being dramatic :rolleyes:)

The first Pokemon that immediately comes to mind when it comes to answering "What counters Kyogre" is Gastrodon. He walls every set relying on a STAB move and Thunder to hell and back thanks to his unique immunities. Ice Beam is, at worst, a 3HKO unless Kyogre has Calm Mind.​

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However, Gastrodon is by no means capable of dealing heavy amounts of damage, he is really only good at walling Kyogre. Due to this he has to rely on Toxic Stalling to bring Kyogre down. Naturally, a Kyogre set that can evade status, such as a Sub CM or Chestorest set with Ice Beam, can win unless Gastrodon has Clear Smog or Mirror Coat.​

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There's an even bigger problem to using Gastrodon however: This is really his only major niche. He cannot do much else for a team other than counter Kyogre and check few other prominent rain threats (Kabutops, Manaphy, and Support Dialga come to mind). Even though Gastrodon does its job incredibly well, the fact that he is incapable of doing much else beyond this makes him less feasible for most teams.​

Seriously though, Latias takes a large dump on Kyogre. The thing has insane special bulk even without investment, and with max special attack it hits harder than Kyurem-W. It can beat Kyogre in whichever way it damn well pleases tbh. An offensive set with Grass Knot or Thunder can deal masses of damage to any Kyogre whilst tanking any hit, and shrugging off even rain boosted surfs. A full defensive Latias can even stand up to the flat out ridiculous water gem lure Kyogre, taking max 60% or so (I can't calc right now) from +1 water gem spout in rain. F*cking crazy.From there Latias can roost, roar, light screen, whatever it wants. CM Latias can even set up on offensive Kyogre, though struggles to break through any defensive set.

In general though, Latias can handle basically ANYTHING Kyogre throws at it with the right set. However, it should be noted that Kyogre can beat Latias if it has the right set. For example, Sp.Def Kyogre beats CM Latias, Water gem lure beats offensive Latias, etc. Doesn't change though that Latias is hands down the best Kyogre counter in the game.

Seriously though, Latias takes a large dump on Kyogre. The thing has insane special bulk even without investment, and with max special attack it hits harder than Kyurem-W. It can beat Kyogre in whichever way it damn well pleases tbh. An offensive set with Grass Knot or Thunder can deal masses of damage to any Kyogre whilst tanking any hit, and shrugging off even rain boosted surfs. A full defensive Latias can even stand up to the flat out ridiculous water gem lure Kyogre, taking max 60% or so (I can't calc right now) from +1 water gem spout in rain. F*cking crazy.From there Latias can roost, roar, light screen, whatever it wants. CM Latias can even set up on offensive Kyogre, though struggles to break through any defensive set.

In general though, Latias can handle basically ANYTHING Kyogre throws at it with the right set. However, it should be noted that Kyogre can beat Latias if it has the right set. For example, Sp.Def Kyogre beats CM Latias, Water gem lure beats offensive Latias, etc. Doesn't change though that Latias is hands down the best Kyogre counter in the game.

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I doubt that you can call the offensive Pivot set a hard counter. Look what Kyogre can do on the switch with it's Beam

As you can see, offensive Latias deals with the specs set better, since it can live any hit and hit back hard, but Ferrothorn deals with the Scarf set much better, as it can either outstall it with leech seed + protect or deal massive damage with Power Whip. So basically, the only real hard, consistent counter to all Kyogres (that does other than just be a Kyogre counter) is Specially defensive Latias with Light Screen and Roost. Other than this poke, you will honestly not be switching into Kyogre more than 2 times, as it will probably break your so called "counter". Of course, checks will be situational differing from set to set which of your pokemon can check it (or maybe even counter like Ferrothorn vs scarf set).

Dialga can also switch into most attacks from it, but the Specs set will wear it down quite fast, and Dialga has no reliable recovery moves.

Is this a joke or something? There are so many ways to deal with Kyogre. You need to either have enough offensive presence and speed such that it cant spam Specs Water Spout, or 1-2 dedicated defensive checks.

Is this a joke or something? There are so many ways to deal with Kyogre. You need to either have enough offensive presence and speed such that it cant spam Specs Water Spout, or 1-2 dedicated defensive checks.

Ubers Co-Leader

Sunny Day Life Orb Charizard with Solar Beam ruins Kyogre switchins. Just saying.

Note: Arceus-Grass, Palkia, and Latias with some HP investment check Support and Scarf Kyogre sets. Specs Kyogre is more difficult to handle in terms of switching in but Gastrodon can take it on, since ice beam does only 36-40% on average.

Is this a joke or something? There are so many ways to deal with Kyogre. You need to either have enough offensive presence and speed such that it cant spam Specs Water Spout, or 1-2 dedicated defensive checks.

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Yeah but if it kills a pokemon for free (can live a hit / outspeed and KO back with Specs water move of choice) then it has done it's job hasn't it? You haven't completely dealt with Kyogre if it is free to kill one of your pokemon. Also lol Sweep ;D

Max hp / max spd.def light screen latias isn't very viable. That is a waste of latias's potential and if you're using it then something has gone wrong in teambuilding.

Anyway, Kyogre is the #1 Pokemon in ubers for a reason. Every team generally needs 2 checks to it. Palkia / Latias are both pretty solid switch ins, Palkia can come on anything except thunder and latias can come in on anything except ice beam [OK, Latias can tank an ice beam, but in my experience you usually get frozen or crited before being able to do anything]. You also have to watch out for the occassinal t-wave too. Specially defensive giratina is also a complete stop to kyogre, tanking anything, resting off any status, and can phaze with roar / dragon tail. Ferrothron / Dialga are good too, just watch out for specs water sprout / surf. Most kyogre's are choiced so it's not too difficult to play around them / get a solid resist in most of the time. Hazards are also a key to beating kyogre, as its vulnerable to all of them so it's not too hard to wore down over the course of the match.

Considering no special attacker in the tier can break latias, saying that its unviable is just pure ignorance if not foolish altogether. The only thing that reliably break it are powerful physical attackers which cm variant struggles with as well.

Also if you say that kyogre can just freeze/Crit latias then you might as well say gira doesn't counter blaze since it can burn/Crit it.

Just saying, Kyogre actually has the means to beat Latias. If you're willing to take the risk, you can use Blizzard on SpecsOgre, or use an Ice Gem with hail. Specs Blizzard does 74.85% - 88.30% to 164 HP Latias, so with Stealth Rock and some prior damage, that's a dead Latias. This is not to mention that Kyogre doesn't even need to run Blizzard to get past Latias, since Ice Beam freezes 100% of the time anyway =).

Considering no special attacker in the tier can break latias, saying that its unviable is just pure ignorance if not foolish altogether. The only thing that reliably break it are powerful physical attackers which cm variant struggles with as well.

Also if you say that kyogre can just freeze/Crit latias then you might as well say gira doesn't counter blaze since it can burn/Crit it.

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I didn't say that Latias itself was unviable. I'm just saying that the Light screen max spd.def set, in particular, is barely viable. It has 1.] Zero Offensive Pressure and 2.] It's very hazard bait. So in most cases it's just going to be a sitting duck. I think that if you're going to use that set, you'd need some big time hazard support so you can at least threaten the oppopsing team with roar + spikes.

I didn't say that Latias itself was unviable. I'm just saying that the Light screen max spd.def set, in particular, is barely viable. It has 1.] Zero Offensive Pressure and 2.] It's very hazard bait. So in most cases it's just going to be a sitting duck. I think that if you're going to use that set, you'd need some big time hazard support so you can at least threaten the oppopsing team with roar + spikes.

and yea, ice beam freezes too much.

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Yes sir! If I used a cm set I can still break through ferro/forry and stop them from setting up (hint no it won't) and if I wanted to go for offensive pressure then why the hell am I using latias? Latios does a far better job at wallbreaking and just offense in general. Latias is mainly used as a defensive pivot. How is it unviable though? 0 SpA dpulse soul dew still hits dragons pretty well. With your argument though kyogre has no check/counter because it can freeze something why the hell would I need an attack besides ice beam? I can just freeze anything and wait till it dies. Use a non shitty argument please.

I'd like to say that "Kyogre can beat Latias with the right set" doesn't make Latias a bad, or even not the best, Kyogre check/counter in the game. After all, Kyogre is famed for being able to beat pretty much anything in the metagame with the right set, including Ferrothorn, Grassceus, etc. What Latias brings to the table is reliable checking abilities, in that it hits hard with little investment, and has colossal bulk. It's true that a Latias with zero bulk investment can't beat out a Kyogre that predicts well, in the same way that a Palkia or Ferrothorn can't beat a Kyogre that predicts well. That's why Kyogre's so damn scary. But with max HP and a little Sp.Def investment (maybe throw in enough speed to outrun 95s and throw the rest in sp.def), most conventional Kyogre sets will struggle to beat Latias.

An interesting Kyogre check that I've been using recently is defensive Arceus Water. When used on a sun team, Kyogre can't lock itself into Thunder, giving it no reliable way of breaking through Waterceus. Waterceus can then Grass Knot for a solid 40%, or Perish Song a set up happy Kyogre. Unfortunately Waterceus falls to Kyogre if used in rain, as Thunder destroys it. Overall though, I'd say it's an interesting alternative to the traditional sun Kyogre checks.

Surprised that no one mentioned the downsides of Latias. It is called Ferrothorn. Yeah, sure you can switch into an attack from Kyogre but whenever you do, Kyogre's best but steps in and gets another hazard or Leech Seed on something. Latias is sure a good way to handle Kyogre itself, but it is impractical. Also don't forget about Kyogre+Genesect. Since everyone switches in the designated Kyogre check on Kyogre at least early game, a double switch into Genesect to catch Latias will build momentum and accumulate more Stealth Rock damage on Latias, so next time Kyogre comes in (I am assuming specsogre), Latias will be hard pressed to maintain its health. All this brings me to my favorite way of checking Kyogre: Palkia and enough offensive presence.

Even though Palkia doesn't have a recovery move, it is hardly needed as when you get in on a surf from Kyogre, you flip the momentum over as non-choiced Palkia is almost impossible to wall. With a fast team and offensive presence, Kyogre can almost never get a free switch in and when it does, Palkia steps out. Sure Kyogre, can probably get past Palkia, but if that happens, you still have a lot of fast mons preventing it to destroy stuff all the time.

Surprised that no one mentioned the downsides of Latias. It is called Ferrothorn. Yeah, sure you can switch into an attack from Kyogre but whenever you do, Kyogre's best but steps in and gets another hazard or Leech Seed on something. Latias is sure a good way to handle Kyogre itself, but it is impractical. Also don't forget about Kyogre+Genesect. Since everyone switches in the designated Kyogre check on Kyogre at least early game, a double switch into Genesect to catch Latias will build momentum and accumulate more Stealth Rock damage on Latias, so next time Kyogre comes in (I am assuming specsogre), Latias will be hard pressed to maintain its health. All this brings me to my favorite way of checking Kyogre: Palkia and enough offensive presence.

Even though Palkia doesn't have a recovery move, it is hardly needed as when you get in on a surf from Kyogre, you flip the momentum over as non-choiced Palkia is almost impossible to wall. With a fast team and offensive presence, Kyogre can almost never get a free switch in and when it does, Palkia steps out. Sure Kyogre, can probably get past Palkia, but if that happens, you still have a lot of fast mons preventing it to destroy stuff all the time.

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I agree with almost everything that you said, but I believe that sub CM latias beats Ferrothorn 1v1, so ferrothorn itself is a pretty shaky counter to some of kyogre's checks, like non choiced palkia as you mentioned.

Surprised that no one mentioned the downsides of Latias. It is called Ferrothorn. Yeah, sure you can switch into an attack from Kyogre but whenever you do, Kyogre's best but steps in and gets another hazard or Leech Seed on something. Latias is sure a good way to handle Kyogre itself, but it is impractical. Also don't forget about Kyogre+Genesect. Since everyone switches in the designated Kyogre check on Kyogre at least early game, a double switch into Genesect to catch Latias will build momentum and accumulate more Stealth Rock damage on Latias, so next time Kyogre comes in (I am assuming specsogre), Latias will be hard pressed to maintain its health. All this brings me to my favorite way of checking Kyogre: Palkia and enough offensive presence.

Even though Palkia doesn't have a recovery move, it is hardly needed as when you get in on a surf from Kyogre, you flip the momentum over as non-choiced Palkia is almost impossible to wall. With a fast team and offensive presence, Kyogre can almost never get a free switch in and when it does, Palkia steps out. Sure Kyogre, can probably get past Palkia, but if that happens, you still have a lot of fast mons preventing it to destroy stuff all the time.

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Well honestly, saying that you can predict a switch goes both ways so that's not really saying much. What if one double switches scarfed palkia into your gene or ferro? What if they predict the ferro and switch to ray? If you talk about prediction you honestly have to assume both sides are able to. Also considering hazards will most likely be up, you can't just constantly spam switches. Overall arguing with predictions doesn't really work if you don't assume both sides can.

Again more prediction problems, palkia loses if kyogre opts to thunder/ice beam (depending on the set). Then you can switch to your palkia check/counter on that weakened palkia and since palkia has no healing, it can't do much for the rest of the match.

This is not about prediction lol. If you switch in your Latios vs Kyogre, you cannot predict to get out of it if your opponent has Ferrothorn. Let's say you double into your Ferrothorn killer, but then your Latias didn't have time to roost- and if hasn't done any damage to Kyogre anyway. So against Ferro you are pretty much lost with Latias lol. Unless you pack Forretress+Latias that is, because it is workable as Forretress pressures in your opponents ghost and sets more hazards.

The prediction things with Genesect isn't prediction either, people always switch in their Kyogre check to scout early game. Taking advantage of this with Genesect is really easy if your opponents designated Kyogre counter is Latias.