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an English translation of information that Christopher Columbus recorded in his 1492 log following first contact with the Western Hemisphere's native Arawak men and women of the Caribbean Archipelago --- taken from Howard Zinn's classic work "A People's History of the United States -- 1492 - Present", page one:

"They...brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things.... They willingly traded everything they owned.... They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features.... They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane.... They would make fine servants.... With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."​

The Arawaks not long thereafter ceased existing altogether as the people they had been when C. Columbus first met them in 1492.

an English translation of information that Christopher Columbus recorded in his 1492 log following first contact with the Western Hemisphere's native Arawak men and women of the Caribbean Archipelago --- taken from Howard Zinn's classic work "A People's History of the United States -- 1492 - Present", page one:

"They...brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things.... They willingly traded everything they owned.... They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features.... They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane.... They would make fine servants.... With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."
​

The Arawaks not long thereafter ceased existing altogether as the people they had been when C. Columbus first met them in 1492.

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Good find ... the history we learned was way screwed up. All we hear about is slave reparations and all that stuff ... the indians got screwed over the worst of all in this country. Their population was killed off over and over.

I just can't really bring myself to wring my hands over things that happened 500 years ago. Am I also supposed to get upset that the aggressive Normans conquered and assimilated the Saxons to pave the way for what is our modern day United Kingdom? What about the sins of the Holy Roman Empire? Or the Crusades? Will I have to answer for the Crusades on my deathbed?

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

You don't have to 'wring' your hands over events 500 years ago, but at the same time, you have to admit it's pretty ridiculous we still celebrate his "discovery"

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No, I don't have to admit any such thing when you consider that his voyages were a defining moment in the history of western civilization. If it makes you feel better, just do what I do and look at the word "discovery" as a euphimism. We all know he didn't "discover" America in the literal sense, but what he did helped shape all of the Americas which is a pretty significant accomplishment.

Wolf, why don't you celebrate slavery while you're at it. I'm sure you can come up with a nice euphemism for it.

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Dilbert's Rule of Internet Debating #6: Hallucinate entirely different points. For example, if someone says apples grow on trees, accuse him of saying snakes have arms and then point out how stupid that is.

Dilbert's Rule of Internet Debating #6: Hallucinate entirely different points. For example, if someone says apples grow on trees, accuse him of saying snakes have arms and then point out how stupid that is.

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Only a FUGGN' idiot would do such a thing....hmmm, I seem to have seen this method used over and over again. Have you also witnessed this foolishness?

Or how about when a poor debater presses you for more details on something you alluded to and then he tries to take the debate totally away from the the original subject...what kind of person would do such a thing?

I just can't really bring myself to wring my hands over things that happened 500 years ago. Am I also supposed to get upset that the aggressive Normans conquered and assimilated the Saxons to pave the way for what is our modern day United Kingdom? What about the sins of the Holy Roman Empire? Or the Crusades? Will I have to answer for the Crusades on my deathbed?

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

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If you are able to accept the historical fact that Europe has dominated the world since the time of Christ, you can deal in reality. I've seen people who know this is fact yet refuse to say it's true. Even if they were the most evil region of the world and everyone hated them, it still wouldn't change the fact that Europe has dominated the world.

I guess some people think that by saying that "Europe has dominated the world", some people take that as you endorse it. The Denver Bronco's are 5-0 and they beat the Patriots....anyone want to argue this point?

No, I don't have to admit any such thing when you consider that his voyages were a defining moment in the history of western civilization. If it makes you feel better, just do what I do and look at the word "discovery" as a euphimism. We all know he didn't "discover" America in the literal sense, but what he did helped shape all of the Americas which is a pretty significant accomplishment.

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You just wrung your hands of it.

Anyhow, that's some curiously vague standards you have there. Carnegie, Rockefeller and Morgan also helped shape all of the Americas. They don't have a national holiday.

I'm all for an 8th non-religious holiday off from work, don't get me wrong. But I can think of a number of other more virtuous dates on which to recognize it.

If you are able to accept the historical fact that Europe has dominated the world since the time of Christ, you can deal in reality. I've seen people who know this is fact yet refuse to say it's true. Even if they were the most evil region of the world and everyone hated them, it still wouldn't change the fact that Europe has dominated the world.

I guess some people think that by saying that "Europe has dominated the world", some people take that as you endorse it. The Denver Bronco's are 5-0 and they beat the Patriots....anyone want to argue this point?

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In point of fact, PR, Europe was a piss-poor backwater from the fall of Rome to the 1500s, regardless of any celebration in European schools and those of their progeny (such as the US), of our own dark-ages and middle-ages triumphs.

I don't remember which historian said this first, but Europe has been characterized as a dependent fringe of Asia for that period of time. The reason Italians got pasta is Marco Polo "discovered" it -- or better yet, "invented" it -- by going to China. The reason you're not trying to balance your checkbook with the letters I, V, X, and C, is that the Arabs came up with the zero and the much of the mathmatics that pertain worldwide to this day.

You're just wrong on this point.

Now, since Europeans did rise to power while other regions of the world lost military engagements to them in the last 500 years or so, you may make a Eurocentric argument that the only point of any learning is the ultimate military subjugation of others, but that only establishes Europe as a collection of warlike tribes unable to appreciate the blessings of civilization... indeed, Europeans (yes, including Americans,) have had this characterization leveled at them for some time now.

By and large, we consider this the sort of thing the losers say about the winners. That's not what we say when we lose through these means, however, such as when we were attacked on 9/11 or at Pearl Harbor.

In point of fact, PR, Europe was a piss-poor backwater from the fall of Rome to the 1500s, regardless of any celebration in European schools and those of their progeny (such as the US), of our own dark-ages and middle-ages triumphs.

I don't remember which historian said this first, but Europe has been characterized as a dependent fringe of Asia for that period of time. The reason Italians got pasta is Marco Polo "discovered" it -- or better yet, "invented" it -- by going to China. The reason you're not trying to balance your checkbook with the letters I, V, X, and C, is that the Arabs came up with the zero and the much of the mathmatics that pertain worldwide to this day.

You're just wrong on this point.

Now, since Europeans did rise to power while other regions of the world lost military engagements to them in the last 500 years or so, you may make a Eurocentric argument that the only point of any learning is the ultimate military subjugation of others, but that only establishes Europe as a collection of warlike tribes unable to appreciate the blessings of civilization... indeed, Europeans (yes, including Americans,) have had this characterization leveled at them for some time now.

By and large, we consider this the sort of thing the losers say about the winners. That's not what we say when we lose through these means, however, such as when we were attacked on 9/11 or at Pearl Harbor.

We are blessed from God, since the birth of Christ, to subjugate the world. Everything that has been "good" was whatever benefited the advanced people.

These savages were lucky that we advanced their lands. Nothing matters except that which is recorded and celebrated in our "civilized" record books.

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I KNEW I'd convince you! I am one convincing SOB, aren't I?

I can NOT BELIEVE the time & energy you put into keeping your argument going. You've made several references to me in other threads AND you started a new thread RIGHT AFTER the other one was shut down on the exact topic we were discussing.

Man, it feels GREAT to be living in your head RENT FREE....It feels fuggn' GREAT!

In point of fact, PR, Europe was a piss-poor backwater from the fall of Rome to the 1500s, regardless of any celebration in European schools and those of their progeny (such as the US), of our own dark-ages and middle-ages triumphs.

I don't remember which historian said this first, but Europe has been characterized as a dependent fringe of Asia for that period of time. The reason Italians got pasta is Marco Polo "discovered" it -- or better yet, "invented" it -- by going to China. The reason you're not trying to balance your checkbook with the letters I, V, X, and C, is that the Arabs came up with the zero and the much of the mathmatics that pertain worldwide to this day.

You're just wrong on this point.

Now, since Europeans did rise to power while other regions of the world lost military engagements to them in the last 500 years or so, you may make a Eurocentric argument that the only point of any learning is the ultimate military subjugation of others, but that only establishes Europe as a collection of warlike tribes unable to appreciate the blessings of civilization... indeed, Europeans (yes, including Americans,) have had this characterization leveled at them for some time now.

By and large, we consider this the sort of thing the losers say about the winners. That's not what we say when we lose through these means, however, such as when we were attacked on 9/11 or at Pearl Harbor.

Work time

PFnV

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I tried to send you a PM on this topic this mornig, but your mail box was full. I never said Europe dominated the entire time from 0-2000. This is how people distort a poster's point. The ONLY reason this even came up was that we were discussing the relationship between discovery and conquering. I brought up the number of "colonial territories" that Europe had amassed from 1400-present and that reflected their dominance.

Anyone who is angry about the way history went needs some serious help. We are in the here and now and who gives a rat's arse how European countries conquered (raped & pillaged) other nations 400 years ago. If you wanna cry about that, then cry about what the Romans did as well. I'm not directing this toward you PFiVA...I highly doubt you waste your emotions on things that happened centuries ago.

If you had to pick one continent that has dominated...if you asked this question to a world historian who is not "White-centric", it would be difficult to name any other continent as being the dominant culture.

If you add the 500 years of Roman dominance plus the 500 of European dominance, we get 1000 years....thats a LOT of domination.

Question: Why are people bothered by the word dominance? It's not offensive in and of itself....I don't get it.

Never....NEVER was my commentary in support of European dominance. If Asia had dominated, I'd say Asia dominated without a problem. There is and never was any "Rooting for" or "Cheering" of European dominance. If I was a black AMerican and said the same thing, I doubt I'd get the same reaction I've gotten.

I suggest we look at the number of countries worldwide and see how many countries speak a European language....that should go a long way in determining dominance and influence.

The question was never "who has completely dominated the world every year since the time of Christ?" It was simply, what culture/continent was the most dominant and influential over the last 2000 years.

What culture do you say it was? You can't say "None" because thats not true.

Finally: How Europe came to dominate and what atrocities they committed was NEVER a point of discussion. It was irrelevant to the question of what country dominated.

The Patriots dominate the NFL in 2007. They did NOT cheat....yet some feel that was a relevant issue even though it was not.

You & Mav are discussing issues I never brought up. What sense does that make. If I say a country or land dominated, then discuss that. Atrocities are another issue and have nothing to do with the point of discussion.

If you or Mav want to discuss European atrocities, fine, but do it in another thread. Its a shame people attempt to change the direction of a thread to make points they have beefs about. I don't care to discuss atrocities especially when it had zip to do with subject matter. That's what new threads are for.

Personally, I don't care what atrocities the Huns, the Romans or the British committed centuries ago. I'm sure that's an interesting topic for many, but I could care less.

People need a life IMO. Why waste time worrying about something an explorer said, felt, or did, some 500+ years ago. The world was a different place then. You can't use 21st century thinking, and standards, against 15th century reality. This thread is beyond idiotic.

If you are able to accept the historical fact that Europe has dominated the world since the time of Christ, you can deal in reality. I've seen people who know this is fact yet refuse to say it's true. Even if they were the most evil region of the world and everyone hated them, it still wouldn't change the fact that Europe has dominated the world.

I guess some people think that by saying that "Europe has dominated the world", some people take that as you endorse it. The Denver Bronco's are 5-0 and they beat the Patriots....anyone want to argue this point?

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European influenced area's of the world are the most civilized, and advanced on the planet. That they've arguably wrought the most death and destruction is a segment of that. Death & destruction is a staple of all civilizations, peoples, regions, and scoieties. Indians killed indians, africans killed africans, asians killed asians, etc. The only difference is the capabilities of each. The more primitive, and therefore insiginificant, the people, or region where death was laid, the more forgotten it is. Had Europeans not settled North America, it's possible that it could today be as savage, disorganized, and chaotic as is Africa. Maybe some of you feel that such would be a good thing, but I'm guessing there are lots of others that don't. Consider the Roman Empire for example. As murderous as it was in conquering foreign lands, it also spread a wealth of technologies, as well as it's platform for organized government. Was the death and destruction something to be celebrated? Of course not, but did it help advance civilization in the process? Yes. It's why it's history. I can't get upset about the romans, just like I can't get upset for Columbus. It's simply history.

European influenced area's of the world are the most civilized, and advanced on the planet. That they've arguably wrought the most death and destruction is a segment of that. Death & destruction is a staple of all civilizations, peoples, regions, and scoieties. Indians killed indians, africans killed africans, asians killed asians, etc. The only difference is the capabilities of each. The more primitive, and therefore insiginificant, the people, or region where death was laid, the more forgotten it is. Had Europeans not settled North America, it's possible that it could today be as savage, disorganized, and chaotic as is Africa. Maybe some of you feel that such would be a good thing, but I'm guessing there are lots of others that don't. Consider the Roman Empire for example. As murderous as it was in conquering foreign lands, it also spread a wealth of technologies, as well as it's platform for organized government. Was the death and destruction something to be celebrated? Of course not, but did it help advance civilization in the process? Yes. It's why it's history. I can't get upset about the romans, just like I can't get upset for Columbus. It's simply history.

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RW...I really respect your ability to "keep it simple and to the point". You're very good at keeping your emotions out of your debates (after all, it's just the internet -RW).

The fact is, the human species is part of the "survival of the fittest" animal world. Competition does in fact result in more advances. Had Europe never "gone on a world wide rampage" , we would never be as advanced as we are now.

I have a meditation book (non-denominational) that has thoughts for each day of the year. One of them states to "I must wear the world as a loose garment. Nothing in the world should seriously upset me."

Otherwise, we appoint ourselves as martyrs who are burdened with the sadness and ugliness of life. No one among us is that important to be laid with such a heavy burden and inner peace would be impossible.