Wrong. Only Mav's supporters are clamoring for punishment for the ref's. The rest of the league could care less. Warriors fans don't believe 'the Mav's were screwed', only Mavericks fans do.

I'm not a maverick fan, just a fan of the game (unlike shaq fans)

yes but Miami got more of the bad calls going their way because they had wade

Not true. Dirk and Wade cancel each other out. The series had bad calls all around and until you present a formal study; picking apart each and every bad call, the subject will remain inconclusive and impossible to prove, so there's no use arguing it.

Dirk and wade do not in the slightest cancel each other out. Dirk rarely had bad calls go his way because he was a ***** and didn't drive to the hoop

I do deny them props because they're the worst championship team since the 70s (except maybe the 99 spurs).

That's your opinion. A lineup featuring Dwayne Wade, Alonzo Mourning, Shaquille O'Neal, Gary Payton, Antoine Walker, James Posey, and Jason Williams is actually a much better team than anything Detroit or San Antonio has put together as of late. This Heat team is actually the best championship squad since the Lakers won it. But, like I said, hate if you must.

They had great talent, sure, but most championship teams would dominate these guys. They were lucky enough to play two teams that, while superior, were playing in a funk

As I said in the other thread, O'neal doesn't get as many shot attempts because he can't get open as easily. He doesn't get as many minutes because he makes no attempt to stay in mediocre shape

I won't even respond to this. You are completely biased. Shaquille O'Neal dropped over 20 pounds this season, which is a helluva method to "stay in shape". If you won't even acknowledge that, there's no use beating my fist into a brick wall. You won't listen to reason regarding Shaquille O'Neal.

"clearly had his man beat". Diop was so much quicker than shaq that there were many times when shaq had diop pinned and diop got around him by the time the pass got there to deflect it.

No, the perimeter players collapsed on Shaq, cutting off the pass or forcing a kickout. Diop wasn't even an obstacle... and Dallas knew that, which is why they doubled (and tripled) Shaq like crazy the whole series. Against 2 or 3 opponents at all times, the big man still managed to put up 17, 16, and 18 point games. No other player operated the whole series in double coverage. Two defenders forced Shaq to 'only score' just under 20 points. And you STILL refuse to give him props...

Shaq was almost never tripled and he was single teamed every fourth quarter. he wasn't doubled more than wade this series.

miami's main flaw the first two games was playing a team that wasn't in a funk. they corrected that the next four games

Dallas played at a lukewarm level the entire series. Once Miami turned it on, there was no stopping them. Miami was beating themselves in Games 1 and 2.

Dallas beat themselves in games 4,5,6.

name me a center who is a superstar in this league this year. there have been 232 player seasons of a guy who plays center averaging 17-12 in the last 45 years. That means that over 5 centers per year on average have put up those numbers. Since there are generally only four or five centers per year who are allstars, unless you think that superstar=allstar, those are not superstar numbers.

Okay than. Shaq put up "all-star numbers".

for three games

He's the best center in the league

in a league where illgauskas, magloire, and dale davis make allstar teams at center that's not saying much

(and he's on the downward slope of a brilliant career).

not going to argue with that

Hakeem didn't put up these numbers when they moved him out of Houston. Neither did Ewing after his exodus from New York. And DRob couldn't put up Shaq's digits with a fellow superstar in the lineup (Duncan for him... Kobe, Wade, and Penny for Shaq).

age 34 hakeem was better than age 34 shaq. and drob and ewing were never as good as shaq

He was the best player in the league for 2-3 years. He is still overrated

He's carried two different teams to championship rings (and he's been there with every team he's been on).

he didn't carry miami to a championship. Wade and luck carried them there.

He's a franchise player; an all-out superstar, even if he isn't putting up the best fantasy numbers for a center anymore.

He WAS a franchise player. He WAS an all out superstar. He is now inferior to 6-8 big men.

History will tell the proper story of Shaquille O'Neal... but, like I said, your selective hearing will never allow you to truly appriciate the greatness of his accomplishments.

I appreciate the greatness of his accomplishments before 2004. I don't appreciate that he peaked at 21 (lack of work ethic) and didn't maximize his abilities because if he had work ethic he could have been the greatest ever

Dwyane wade dominated this series. If shaq were dominant he would have gotten free enough for more shots. And shaq averaged those numbers OVER A SPAN OF A FEW GAMES! Don't you think that a heck of a lot of centers "dominated" like that in a span of three games at some point this season? Marcus Camby was putting up these numbers the first 25 games of the season before he got hurt. You're calling three games of what marcus camby did for 25 games dominant. In a random span of three games of yao's season that I chose, he averaged 33-12

None of those games were pivotal contests in the NBA f'n Finals. Shaq showed up when it counted; in Games 3, 4, and 5. By Game 6, Miami had it in the back and he sat out a good amount of time. Again, continue to hate if it makes you feel better. Say whatever you gotta say to convince yourself that Shaq isn't a franchise player.

He isn't a franchise player anymore. he hasn't been since 2003. To be a franchise player you should at least be the best player on your team.

Dirk and wade do not in the slightest cancel each other out. Dirk rarely had bad calls go his way because he was a ***** and didn't drive to the hoop

He still fell on his ass everytime he spotted up a three. Dirk and Wade canceled out.

They had great talent, sure, but most championship teams would dominate these guys. They were lucky enough to play two teams that, while superior, were playing in a funk

"Most championship teams". As in, the Jordan Bulls, Showtime Lakers, Bad Boys Pistons, and (pretty much any) Celtics??? Okay, I'll agree with that. But Detroit (who had, practically, the exact same team as their championship days) got ran over. And San Antonio would have suffered the same fate as Dallas (even in their championship days). This Heat team is the best championship squad since the Lakers of 2000. That's a fact.

Nope, that's wrong. Shaq lost the weight as a suggestion from new head coach, Pat Riley (who pushed... er, 'stepped in' for Stan Van Gundy earlier this season).

Shaq was almost never tripled and he was single teamed every fourth quarter. he wasn't doubled more than wade this series.

Yes he was. Shaq was clearly doubled as soon as he touched the ball (sometimes, even before they got it to him)... and he was tripled numerous times when he had position inside. Denying it changes nothing.

Dallas beat themselves in games 4,5,6.

Again, not true. While key players like O'Neal, Walker, Williams, and (some would argue), Wade didn't show up early on in the series, the only player to fall off for Dallas was Nowitski. Everybody else played their usual game. It's just that Terry and Stackhouse were the only ones capable of trying to take over leadership for Nowitski, and they proved that they were no match for the Shaq/Wade tandem. Dallas showed that they are really nothing but a lotta hype without Nowitski.

for three games

In the NBA Finals, yes. When it counted the most, Shaq delivered. Can you say the same for Dirk...?

in a league where illgauskas, magloire, and dale davis make allstar teams at center that's not saying much

It is when he's miles above them. Just because the league doesn't have "many" great centers doesn't mean it doesn't have "any". Shaquille O'Neal is a great center and always has been.

age 34 hakeem was better than age 34 shaq. and drob and ewing were never as good as shaq

Age doesn't matter; NBA years do. When Hakeem began to exit his prime, he became a doormat. An aging Hakeem became ineffective (and nobody can say the same about O'Neal). Do you even remember Hakeem on the Toronto Raptors...? Shaq took a trade to Miami (in the same phase of his career as Hakeem) and made them a championship team. Wade may be the rightful MVP of the Finals, but Miami wasn't (and never would have been) a championship squad without O'Neal. Facts are facts.

He was the best player in the league for 2-3 years. He is still overrated

This is purely your opinion. It can't be proven, one way or the other. I completely disagree, but there's no use arguing it with you.

he didn't carry miami to a championship. Wade and luck carried them there.

More hate and more selective hearing. Dwayne Wade could have NEVER gotten to the Finals without Shaquille O'Neal on the Miami Heat. Shaq turned that team into an immediate finals contender as soon as he got there. You can't say the same for Wade. Miami wasn't even on the map after he got drafted. He was a damn good player, but he became a superstar (like Penny and Kobe) under the guidance of Shaquille O'Neal. You can try to claim that these are all coincidences, but the truth is that Shaq creates a superstar 2-guard everywhere he plays. Death, taxes, and Shaq making his favorite guard on the team a star.

He WAS a franchise player. He WAS an all out superstar. He is now inferior to 6-8 big men.

"Big men". Not centers. But, okay, let's play your game. Garnett, Brand, Duncan, and.... who? Those are the only "big men" players I can imagine taking a team further than an aging, slower Shaq could. Let's hear the other 3-5 you have in check, please.

I appreciate the greatness of his accomplishments before 2004. I don't appreciate that he peaked at 21 (lack of work ethic) and didn't maximize his abilities because if he had work ethic he could have been the greatest ever

Sounds like a personal problem. Some of us will enjoy the greatness Shaq undoubtably showed during his career... but I guess there will always be those who demand more out of the players. Despite spending HOURS upon hours in the gym practicing his free throws, there will be some ignorant fans who will always say "well, if Shaq REALLY worked so hard, how come he sucked at free throws?" Its like the whole Barry Bonds issue. People just want to hate because they're bored, I guess.

He isn't a franchise player anymore. he hasn't been since 2003. To be a franchise player you should at least be the best player on your team.

No, to be a franchise player, you need to carry your team. Look at the Lakers. Nobody would dare try to say Shaq was better than Kobe on their squad during their championship run, because he didn't fill up the fantasy sheet like some people demand... and Kobe did (like Wade does). But what happened to Orlando when Shaq went to the Lakers... and how'd that work out for the Lakers? What happened to LA once he took off... and what happened to Miami? He carries teams. Put 2 and 2 together.

He still fell on his ass everytime he spotted up a three. Dirk and Wade canceled out.

and they didn't call it

"Most championship teams". As in, the Jordan Bulls, Showtime Lakers, Bad Boys Pistons, and (pretty much any) Celtics??? Okay, I'll agree with that. But Detroit (who had, practically, the exact same team as their championship days) got ran over. And San Antonio would have suffered the same fate as Dallas (even in their championship days). This Heat team is the best championship squad since the Lakers of 2000. That's a fact.

Nope, that's wrong. Shaq lost the weight as a suggestion from new head coach, Pat Riley (who pushed... er, 'stepped in' for Stan Van Gundy earlier this season).

No, shaq lost weight for riley for the 04-05 season, and then gained it back again. Don't you remember him saying "I was a human this season, I need to return to my alien roots". he gained all the weight that he lost back.

Yes he was. Shaq was clearly doubled as soon as he touched the ball (sometimes, even before they got it to him)... and he was tripled numerous times when he had position inside. Denying it changes nothing.

Obviously I didn't have the time to count when he got doubled but the two times I did think to count it (second half of game 4[?] of the nets series and overtime in game 5) he got doubled zero times. He obviously got doubled some during the series but no more than most stars. there's a difference between helping and denying and doubling.

Again, not true. While key players like O'Neal, Walker, Williams, and (some would argue), Wade didn't show up early on in the series, the only player to fall off for Dallas was Nowitski. Everybody else played their usual game. It's just that Terry and Stackhouse were the only ones capable of trying to take over leadership for Nowitski, and they proved that they were no match for the Shaq/Wade tandem. Dallas showed that they are really nothing but a lotta hype without Nowitski.

They stopped running their offense, Dallas always played above their talent level the entire season until the finals. And nobody came up for Dallas in the clutch.

It is when he's miles above them. Just because the league doesn't have "many" great centers doesn't mean it doesn't have "any". Shaquille O'Neal is a great center and always has been.

depends on how you define great. I don't think that Wayman Tinsdale, Herb Williams, Ken Sears, Antoine Walker, detlef Sheremph, Dino Radja, Bob Netolicky, Calvin Natt, etc were great. those were players who put up similar numbers to what shaq did this season

Age doesn't matter; NBA years do. When Hakeem began to exit his prime, he became a doormat. An aging Hakeem became ineffective (and nobody can say the same about O'Neal). Do you even remember Hakeem on the Toronto Raptors...? Shaq took a trade to Miami (in the same phase of his career as Hakeem) and made them a championship team.

Hakeem didn't go to toronto until he was 39 and had been in the league 18 years. It's not even close to the same phase. At 39, or when he's been in the league 18 years, whichever you prefer, shaq probably won't even still be in the league, and if he is he'll be a 400 lb scrub who miami is pissed off at because they're paying him 20 million to average 9 points.

Wade may be the rightful MVP of the Finals, but Miami wasn't (and never would have been) a championship squad without O'Neal. Facts are facts.

If facts are facts, why don't you start presenting some? Miami wouldn't have been the champions without 'toine either, did he carry the team?

"Big men". Not centers. But, okay, let's play your game. Garnett, Brand, Duncan, and.... who? Those are the only "big men" players I can imagine taking a team further than an aging, slower Shaq could. Let's hear the other 3-5 you have in check, please.

Garnett, Brand, Duncan, Dirk, Gasol, Yao, Marion, Amare, the list goes on. If you throw games played into the mix then even guys like chris webber can probably go in there because I'd certainly rather have 80 games of a 20-9 43% guy than 59 games of a 20-9 60% guy (of course shaq is better but is he better enough that 60 games of him is better than a lot of guys?);

Sounds like a personal problem. Some of us will enjoy the greatness Shaq undoubtably showed during his career... but I guess there will always be those who demand more out of the players. Despite spending HOURS upon hours in the gym practicing his free throws, there will be some ignorant fans who will always say "well, if Shaq REALLY worked so hard, how come he sucked at free throws?" Its like the whole Barry Bonds issue. People just want to hate because they're bored, I guess.

yeah, I'm sure shaq's spent a total of a few hours working on them in his career. you know why people say that shaq is lazy on free throws? because EVERY TIME that the announcers say he practices before a game he shoots decently on them. The one time his team got a free throw coach he shot decently on them for the season (remember that?). If he cared about his free throws he could be a 65% ft shooter. Not good, but not embarrassing. He is so stubborn he won't change his terrible free throw form and shoots a line drive at the hoop. But I don't care a huge amount about the free throws, I care that he couldn't keep his weight down to a reasonable 320 lbs for his career and as a result he was injury prone and his prime was 21 years old. Also, all of the hustle points he lacked in, he was never willing to fight for the boards (he was a good rebounder but somebody his muscle mass should have gotten that many while sleeping) he wasn't willing to play tough defense(blocks were high but he didn't stop people much), wasn't willing to take charges (though it is chilling that shaq started flopping this playoffs), etc. Imagine if lebron never improved from now on.

No, to be a franchise player, you need to carry your team. Look at the Lakers. Nobody would dare try to say Shaq was better than Kobe on their squad during their championship run, because he didn't fill up the fantasy sheet like some people demand... and Kobe did (like Wade does). But what happened to Orlando when Shaq went to the Lakers... and how'd that work out for the Lakers? What happened to LA once he took off... and what happened to Miami? He carries teams. Put 2 and 2 together

Shaq was a better player than kobe for at least their first two championships and at least equal to him during their third. By what happened in orlando I assume you're talking about a young in his prime shaq getting dusted by an aging hakeem with less talent around him than shaq. In miami duncan, garnett, brand, or any other star big man would have taken them this far. In LA he was the best player in the league

Well, it doesn't really matter anymore. The thread's lost it's meaning. dIsEaSe and I can keep going around in circles for the next million years and not change each other's minds. The subject's become a stalemate. I'm out.

#32 wrote:Well, it doesn't really matter anymore. The thread's lost it's meaning. dIsEaSe and I can keep going around in circles for the next million years and not change each other's minds. The subject's become a stalemate. I'm out.

Note: these are not who I think will be the best teams, it's who will have the best odds to win a championship.
1. Phoenix - All signs indicate that amare will be healthy and they haven't traded marion yet. - 63-19.
2. Dallas - Not really looking to be any different than last year - 60-22.
3. SAS - See above (age) - 58-26
4. CHI - Should mainly run unopposed in the (l)east - 56-28
5. MIA - One last chance with these guys but I'm not optimistic - 52-30
6. CLE - If they can add a decent player they'll be set - 54-28
7. HOU - The fact that they traded gay indicates a healthy tmac - 50-32
8. ORL - They've got a lot of good players. we shall see. - 44-38
9. LAL - Never count out kobe - 45-37
10. LAC - if livingston has a breakout year - 50-32

yeah, I think they'll be a sleeper and if dwight howard, jameer nelson, darko, and JJ all play to their potential this could be a contender team. As you see I predicted them to only win 44 games, I just think that there is a chance in hell of them winning