I wonder if the President Obama wants to identify his family with any of the people in this case?

Quote:

Chancey Allen Luna, 16, and James Francis Edwards Jr., 15 have been charged with first-degree murder over the fatal shooting in Duncan, Oklahoma. Michael Dewayne Jones, 17, was charged with using a vehicle in the discharge of a weapon and with accessory to first-degree murder after the fact. ...

It comes a day after Duncan Police Chief Danny Ford said he had secured the confession of Jones who had summoned investigators to his jail cell and claimed they were bored "so they decided to kill somebody".

Chief Ford said the teens had no motive other than to ''make a name for themselves''. ..

There really has to be a cultural change. Stop making excuses for everyone's troubles and start presenting viable solutions that don't involve politicians throwing them scraps to secure their votes yet keep them out of the politician's gated, suburban communities. Its such a joke and not even funny.

I'm an avid runner and often am out running on very quiet, country roads. I highly doubt I'm going to be taking one in the back but seriously, do I and others now have to wonder about being targets?

I agree Jammer, If you are on welfare, you lose your right to vote. It's a conflict of interest.

So, are you saying that anyone supported by the government has a conflict of interest? Would that apply to government employees? Post office workers. Everyone at the DOT or the DMV. Anyone in the military. All those people don't have a right to vote anymore?

Yeah that's what I mean, come on now. The people that the Gov't gives money to for votes, ie; welfare. The people that really need it sure, but for the most part, it's out of control. So yes, their right to vote should be taken away.

Yeah that's what I mean, come on now. The people that the Gov't gives money to for votes, ie; welfare. The people that really need it sure, but for the most part, it's out of control. So yes, their right to vote should be taken away.

Why?

The citizenry has the right to decide whether to send this country down the toilet or not.

Yeah that's what I mean, come on now. The people that the Gov't gives money to for votes, ie; welfare. The people that really need it sure, but for the most part, it's out of control. So yes, their right to vote should be taken away.

Honestly, I think the clean up of voter fraud and enacting voter ID laws is the solution to what you are saying Mak.

I don't think its a coincidence that key cities like Columbus, OH or Philadelphia had over 100% voter turnout last November. The system is rigged by politicians to keep themselves in power. Also look at how they are exempting themselves from Obamacare.

Voting is a right but one that should be taken seriously. A lot of my friends don't vote. Someone could easily identify that, drive to their towns and vote in their place. Now imagine it on a higher level. I believe it happens a lot and is why there is such a strong push in certain areas to block voter ID laws.

Compare that to the amount of votes that can be denied due to the laws.

I'm sorry but I find this to be a very weak argument. The reasoning behind this most often is that said people cannot get to a registry to get their identification aka its too hard. Yet somehow they find their way to the polling booth every two years via community services. So please, spare me the its not fair argument.

As for denial of vote. You don't think the ACLU has an army in place to combat such things?

I can tell you from first hand experience, not some article I read, that Republicans had an army of attorneys ready to go during the Scott Brown election in 2010 for the seat previously occupied by Ted Kennedy. My friend worked for the Republican governor of Rhode Island and on election day told me that they were helping to provide legal help for anyone who was denied the ability to vote for Brown. Stories got out about the Democratic Campaign crew bussing in people to vote for the opponent Martha Coakley I was told to call if I had any problems or witnessed fraudulent activity(thankfully I didn't).

The fact that this is even possible is bad enough and evidence enough that simple ID checks are a solution.

jammer, I was voting in a heavily Democratic precinct during the 2012 election. There was like one Romney sign amidst a sea of Obama posters. Valerie Jarrett even made an appearance at the precinct, though almost no one knew who she was.

There were workers at the precinct talking to people in line and then moving them to the front of the line. These weren't people with disabilities and I couldn't say for sure who they were voting for, but if I had to guess, it wasn't for Romney. Someone in line claimed he heard one of the poll workers asking the people in line who they were going to vote for and if they said Obama, they got moved to the front of the line. There were complains filed regarding this incident, but as far as I know, nothing was ever done.

I guess the funny business doesn't apply to only one side of the equation as some in this thread would have us think...

jammer, I was voting in a heavily Democratic precinct during the 2012 election. There was like one Romney sign amidst a sea of Obama posters. Valerie Jarrett even made an appearance at the precinct, though almost no one knew who she was.

There were workers at the precinct talking to people in line and then moving them to the front of the line. These weren't people with disabilities and I couldn't say for sure who they were voting for, but if I had to guess, it wasn't for Romney. Someone in line claimed he heard one of the poll workers asking the people in line who they were going to vote for and if they said Obama, they got moved to the front of the line. There were complains filed regarding this incident, but as far as I know, nothing was ever done.

I guess the funny business doesn't apply to only one side of the equation as some in this thread would have us think...

In Springfield, MA a lot of churches and community groups were offering free bus rides to the polls and included a free lunch. I can promise they weren't targeting Romney and it was directed at ensuring Scott Brown would not be re-elected.

Sorry, but MA does the same thing to unnecessarily separate Republican leaning towns that are otherwise next to each other. Its why there hasn't been a Republican rep in 20 plus years. You're not getting my sympathy on this one.

The fact that there is even an argument against proving your identify to vote is astonishing to me.

jammer wrote:

I'm sorry but I find this to be a very weak argument. The reasoning behind this most often is that said people cannot get to a registry to get their identification aka its too hard. Yet somehow they find their way to the polling booth every two years via community services. So please, spare me the its not fair argument.

According to the study, there is an estimated 11% of Americans who do not have a current, valid, gov't issued photo ID. That would equal about 20 million Americans.

The groups most affected by this are the elderly, minorities, poor, and young adults.

On the other hand, you have voter fraud. 2,068 alleged cases of voter fraud since 2000. Those 2,068 alleged cases are out of 600 million votes cast.

2068/600,000,000 = 0.0003%

Hmm... 11% vs 0.0003%.

Oh, and out of those 2068 cases, only 10 of the cases were for IN-PERSON voter fraud.

Let's see. The 2000 election was the closest. That was decided by 537 votes in Florida. So, if we assume all 10 of those cases were in the same election, we would still need an increase of in person voter fraud of over 500% (all in favor of Gore, keep in mind) in order to change the outcome.

There is no problem to solve.

So why are GOP lawmakers trying to solve it?

How neat it is that 3/4 groups most affected by it tend to vote Democratic. I would bet that is the reason, b/c in person "voter fraud" is mathematically 0 and it is NEVER going to swing an election.

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Last edited by 1984phins on Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sorry, but MA does the same thing to unnecessarily separate Republican leaning towns that are otherwise next to each other. Its why there hasn't been a Republican rep in 20 plus years. You're not getting my sympathy on this one.

Don't understand your post at all. Sympathy has nothing to do with it. Looking it up, the 9 MA districts all went to one party. IT PROVES THERE IS GERRYMANDERING. So, why can't we agree that is a problem?

I can tell you from first hand experience, not some article I read, that Republicans had an army of attorneys ready to go during the Scott Brown election in 2010 for the seat previously occupied by Ted Kennedy. My friend worked for the Republican governor of Rhode Island and on election day told me that they were helping to provide legal help for anyone who was denied the ability to vote for Brown. Stories got out about the Democratic Campaign crew bussing in people to vote for the opponent Martha Coakley I was told to call if I had any problems or witnessed fraudulent activity(thankfully I didn't).

The fact that this is even possible is bad enough and evidence enough that simple ID checks are a solution.

Stories are fun, but where is your proof?How exactly do you deny someone the ability to vote for Brown?Did any legal cases come from this innuendo? If so, how many votes were wrongfully given?

jammer, I was voting in a heavily Democratic precinct during the 2012 election. There was like one Romney sign amidst a sea of Obama posters. Valerie Jarrett even made an appearance at the precinct, though almost no one knew who she was.

There were workers at the precinct talking to people in line and then moving them to the front of the line. These weren't people with disabilities and I couldn't say for sure who they were voting for, but if I had to guess, it wasn't for Romney. Someone in line claimed he heard one of the poll workers asking the people in line who they were going to vote for and if they said Obama, they got moved to the front of the line. There were complains filed regarding this incident, but as far as I know, nothing was ever done.

I guess the funny business doesn't apply to only one side of the equation as some in this thread would have us think...

Crooked poll workers, while a problem, have nothing to do with the topic at hand. (Voter ID/FRAUD)

According to the study, there is an estimated 11% of Americans who do not have a current, valid, gov't issued photo ID. That would equal about 20 million Americans.

The groups most affected by this are the elderly, minorities, poor, and young adults.

Ok, well they are able to go out and vote so they should be able to go out and acquire a voter ID.

2068 cases of voter fraud? I find that highly unlikely. There is no way a system with so many different methods of voting (machines, punch ballots, etc) and with so many partisans entrenched in the system has such a near perfect system.

Washington, D.C. - A new report from the National Center for Public Policy Research finds the Brennan Center for Justice - one of the country's loudest opponents of voter integrity measures - to have a history of bias-driven research.

The report also discloses that the Brennan Center has received millions in funding from George Soros.

How Widespread is Voter Fraud? | 2012 Facts & FiguresHere are the facts:•To date, 46 states have prosecuted or convicted cases of voter fraud.•More than 24 million voter registrations are invalid, yet remain on the rolls nation-wide.•There are over 1.8 million dead voters still eligible on the rolls across the country.•More than 2.75 million Americans are registered to vote in more than one state.•True The Vote recently found 99 cases of potential felony interstate voter fraud.•Maryland affiliates of True The Vote uncovered cases of people registering and voting after their respective deaths.•This year, True The Vote uncovered more than 348,000 dead people on the rolls in 27 states. ◦California: 49,000◦Florida: 30,000◦Texas: 28,500◦Michigan: 25,000◦Illinois: 24,000•12 Indiana counties have more registered voters than residents.•The Ohio Secretary of State admitted that multiple Ohio counties have more registered voters than residents.•Federal records showed 160 counties in 19 states have over 100 percent voter registration.•The Florida New Majority Education Fund, Democratic Party of Florida and the National Council of La Raza are currently under investigation for alleged voter registration fraud.

84, I agreed there is gerrymandering but you of course made it negative against Republicans. That was my counter to your argument that the Dems got screwed in PA.

Just because you posted a biased statistic about voter fraud doesn't equate to its virtual nonexistence. Again if people can get out to vote they can get out for an ID as well. Its about having fair elections.

My personal story fits perfectly. I don't need to provide you statistics. The fear that it could happen is the driving force behind having IDs. Repubs and Dems shouldn't have armies of attorneys at hand in case of fraud. The statistics Rich showed blew up your whole argument.

Its not simply about Presidential votes. Local elections are just as important, and again, just because nothing is reported doesn't mean fraud exists. Its almost impossible to track without ID requirement.

Did you really say crooked poll workers aren't a voter ID issue? Seriously, think about your comment again and how it relates to the discussion. People being moved to the front of the line then have time to possibly vote again.

Remember the video showing the son of Democrat Jim Moran telling the reporter how to commit voter fraud, saying it is as easy as forging a utility bill to prove identify?

Nothing to see here...

Truth is that if a politician or party wants the votes bad enough they will do what it takes. If it means providing a free ride and paying for the ID it will get done. That is why I don't understand the fear of having mandatory ID.

If it means providing a free ride and paying for the ID it will get done

ANd/or giving food stamps/EBT cards and other enabling programs they will get it done as well. As far as voter fraud goes, why is it such an issue to show proper ID to vote? Just answer that 1984. Forget stats, articles, spin zone ETC. Why is showing an ID to vote such a big deal?

Ok, well they are able to go out and vote so they should be able to go out and acquire a voter ID.

2068 cases of voter fraud? I find that highly unlikely. There is no way a system with so many different methods of voting (machines, punch ballots, etc) and with so many partisans entrenched in the system has such a near perfect system.

Here are some highlights from a Pennsylvania case I found interesting.

Quote:

In a pretrial document released by the ACLU, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, represented by the state Attorney General’s Office, could not identify any cases of voter impersonation at the polls. . . Leading up to the trial, the state said it would offer no evidence that “in-person voter fraud has in fact occurred in Pennsylvania or elsewhere” or that “in-person voter fraud is likely to occur in November 2012 in the absence of a photo ID law.” Pennsylvania officials, who responded to the News21 public record requests, also reported no cases of Election Day voter-impersonation fraud since 2000.

Now, the Penn. ID law was affirmed in court, but I'm not arguing it is an illegal law.

How Widespread is Voter Fraud? | 2012 Facts & FiguresHere are the facts:•To date, 46 states have prosecuted or convicted cases of voter fraud.•More than 24 million voter registrations are invalid, yet remain on the rolls nation-wide.•There are over 1.8 million dead voters still eligible on the rolls across the country.•More than 2.75 million Americans are registered to vote in more than one state.•True The Vote recently found 99 cases of potential felony interstate voter fraud.•Maryland affiliates of True The Vote uncovered cases of people registering and voting after their respective deaths.•This year, True The Vote uncovered more than 348,000 dead people on the rolls in 27 states. ◦California: 49,000◦Florida: 30,000◦Texas: 28,500◦Michigan: 25,000◦Illinois: 24,000•12 Indiana counties have more registered voters than residents.•The Ohio Secretary of State admitted that multiple Ohio counties have more registered voters than residents.•Federal records showed 160 counties in 19 states have over 100 percent voter registration.•The Florida New Majority Education Fund, Democratic Party of Florida and the National Council of La Raza are currently under investigation for alleged voter registration fraud.

But if it were an honest liberal response - the ends justify the means - Saul Alinsky.

Your stats purposely confuse the issue by linking inaccurate voter rolls with in person voter fraud.Yes, there are dead people in voter rolls. That is bad enough. But until these dead people actually show up in person and vote, it is not voter fraud.

Where is the EVIDENCE of in person voter fraud? I have posted the study that looked into it. Do you have a study that claims otherwise?

Rich wrote:

Washington, D.C. - A new report from the National Center for Public Policy Research finds the Brennan Center for Justice - one of the country's loudest opponents of voter integrity measures - to have a history of bias-driven research.

84, I agreed there is gerrymandering but you of course made it negative against Republicans. That was my counter to your argument that the Dems got screwed in PA.

Agreed. With how great computers are nowadays, we should be able to come up with a computer based program that sets the districts in a fair way. It should not be done by politicians (that is how we get the MA and PA imbalances). I think we are in agreement there.

jammer wrote:

Just because you posted a biased statistic about voter fraud doesn't equate to its virtual nonexistence. Again if people can get out to vote they can get out for an ID as well. Its about having fair elections.

To be fair, Rich called the study about people not having ID biased, not the 2068 Voter Fraud study (which was not done by the organization he called biased)

Lots of people don't have the ID. I'm not comfortable with getting them disenfranchised for a problem that doesn't appear to be there. That is just me.

If it means providing a free ride and paying for the ID it will get done

ANd/or giving food stamps/EBT cards and other enabling programs they will get it done as well. As far as voter fraud goes, why is it such an issue to show proper ID to vote? Just answer that 1984. Forget stats, articles, spin zone ETC. Why is showing an ID to vote such a big deal?

You can't answer this without stats. Rich called the Brennan Center's study, which showed 11% of Americans not having the proper ID to vote "biased." Fine, let's just accept that for sake of argument.

I will once again go back to the court case in Pennsylvania which challenged the law.

According to Pennsylvania’s Department of State and the Department of Transportation, as many as 758,000 people, about 9 percent of the state’s 8.2 million registered voters currently don’t have the required identification.

Interesting that the 9% figure kinda corroborates the other study that Rich dismissed. So, we do know that in least in Pennsylvania you have 758,000 registered voters effected. Let's say 95% of them somehow get it done. That still leaves 37,900 people not able to vote, which by far exceeds the amount of in person voter fraud cases that have been reported.

If they are denied ID your point is valid. If they choose not to get an ID that is their own fault. Again, if they find transportation to the polls they can do the same to sign up for an ID.

Having an ID system attempts to have ZERO fraud and makes my vote equal to your vote and everyone else's vote. I don't care if it is as small as city council or as large as President. Even one case of fraud is too much in my opinion because it hurts the concept of a democracy.

Now, if a certain group lacks the motivation to get an ID and it hurts the attempted power grab of a certain political party then I suggest they work harder to educate their voting base. Its not as though they don't already go door to door, into nursing homes or any other place of residence to register voters.

I think disenfranchised is too strong a word. Getting an ID just isn't that hard. You don't have to pass a test, prove literacy or pay an excessive fee.