Not every spec needs to be exactly the same in all departments. There are plenty of complaints about homogenization between the specs as it is. I think this new 40% to 4 targets Blade Flurry is good enough to make Combat different from the other two specs. And honestly 40% of your damage to 4 nearby targets, Deadly Poison ticking on all the mobs, and your regular single target damage on one of the mobs is enough to make Combat not fall behind like it does currently and makes the spec unique enough.

There is always going to be a spec that performs better than the others at some point. If Combat only falls behind at 10+ targets I'd say Combat is going to be the new top raiding spec. I still think Combat should get a Fan of Knives damage boost somewhere (crits do 4 times more damage maybe?) but I really don't see the problem.

Not every spec needs to be exactly the same in all departments. There are plenty of complaints about homogenization between the specs as it is. I think this new 40% to 4 targets Blade Flurry is good enough to make Combat different from the other two specs. And honestly 40% of your damage to 4 nearby targets, Deadly Poison ticking on all the mobs, and your regular single target damage on one of the mobs is enough to make Combat not fall behind like it does currently and makes the spec unique enough.

There is always going to be a spec that performs better than the others at some point. If Combat only falls behind at 10+ targets I'd say Combat is going to be the new top raiding spec. I still think Combat should get a Fan of Knives damage boost somewhere (crits do 4 times more damage maybe?) but I really don't see the problem.

Out of interest; Does Blade Flurry actually copy poisons over now as well...? I always thought it exclusively copied melee attacks - excluding dots/bleeds like Rupture and Deadly.

And I'm inclined to disagree, I don't think Fan of Knives needs to be made worthwhile to use in any spec. I'd prefer it if each spec had some form of unique AOE mechanic. Blade Flurry being Combat's main AOE/cleave makes perfect sense to me. Subtlety making better use of Crimson Tempest is also a decent idea. What I miss is some kinda "proper" AOE mechanic for Assassination.

Currently, Assassination isn't actually that great at AOE; its AOE damage is simply an inflated number generated by an immense amount of smaller numbers, spread across an immense amount of adds. You're not really dealing lots of damage, you're just being a boss at multi-dotting. That's why you'll generally do mediocre AOE dps with 4-5 targets up, yet generate godlike dps when you have 10. You're not killing anything, you're just trying to kill lots of different targets at once, which looks good on paper but doesn't accomplish much.

Mechanically speaking, Crimson Tempest isn't used as Assassination at all and using Envenom during an AOE phase feels counter intuitive. I'd like some kind of interaction between Envenom and Fan of Knives, outside of the increased poison proc chance, so Assassination can have some decent AOE that isn't reliant on severe multi-dotting.

How about this; When affected by Envenom, Fan of Knives will "detonate" poison charges on any poisoned surrounding add, exploding for X amounts of nature damage and hitting up to 2 additional targets. I'd like to see something of that sort, giving the AOE some nice burst potential.

Out of interest; Does Blade Flurry actually copy poisons over now as well...? I always thought it exclusively copied melee attacks - excluding dots/bleeds like Rupture and Deadly.

Not that I know of, I highly doubt that. My point was more if you are AoEing or cleaving a good Rogue will keep Deadly Poison ticking on all the mobs as well.

Originally Posted by Incineration

Currently, Assassination isn't actually that great at AOE; its AOE damage is simply an inflated number generated by an immense amount of smaller numbers, spread across an immense amount of adds. You're not really dealing lots of damage, you're just being a boss at multi-dotting. That's why you'll generally do mediocre AOE dps with 4-5 targets up, yet generate godlike dps when you have 10. You're not killing anything, you're just trying to kill lots of different targets at once, which looks good on paper but doesn't accomplish much.

Look Incineration I know you from the Rogue forums for I believe over a year and you always make very good and constructive posts which are pleasant to read. But this really doesn't make any sense at all. How is multi-dotting a bad thing? Mobs die when their HP reaches 0, how you bring the mob's HP to 0 doesn't really matter. Deadly Poison ticking on 5 or 50 mobs is a large amount of damage and that isn't really any worse from say Multi-Shot or Divine Storm. The amount of small or large numbers isn't important at all, the damage dealt however is. Deadly Poison's dot is damage regardless of how it's applied.

Originally Posted by Incineration

How about this; When affected by Envenom, Fan of Knives will "detonate" poison charges on any poisoned surrounding add, exploding for X amounts of nature damage and hitting up to 2 additional targets. I'd like to see something of that sort, giving the AOE some nice burst potential.

That sounds exactly like how Deadly Poison is right now, just without being forced to Envenom and without the ''explosion'' hitting other mobs. Deadly Poison procs with Deadly Poison already active on the mob does the instant portion of the damage. I'm sure you already know that, but my point is that I don't know what adding something like that will add aside from making Assassination's AoE so much better than it already is. Soon we will hear the ''stay Combat for everything but go Assassination when there is any AoE'' line much like for Combat on live and cleaving.

It makes a difference when the amount of mobs present aren't sufficient for your multi-dotting to work at its optimal state. It simply takes too many adds for Assassination's AOE to be of any great use, and it requires said AOE-phase to run for a decent amount of time; you need your Deadly-ticks and as many Instant procs as possible. In the meantime, other classes/specs (such as Frost DK's or Elemental Shamans) can dish out immense amounts of damage on anything ranging from a few to a lot of adds, in a very bursty fashion, ending the AOE-phase long before the Assassination rogue has even gotten his first Envenom up. Granted, it's hard to outperform an Assassination rogue when you have a pool of 10 or so adds. However, that's a rather uncommon phenomenon in raiding, and the add count will rarely surpass 5, and at 5 (or less) adds, Assassination's AOE descends into mediocrity.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Assassination's AOE is simply too niche. It's no different than Elemental's AOE was during Cataclysm(before Chain Lightning was made the primary AOE tool). In theory, the spec had almost limitless AOE potential, but in practice, it often failed to deliver due to AOE phases being too short or not boasting enough adds. Assassination is no different; It outperforms other specs dramatically when plenty of adds are introduced, but as the number of adds go down, so does Assassination's dps, while that of other classes/specs goes up.

And I'm inclined to disagree again; How damage is applied isn't irrelevant. You could have the BEST AOE in the game, outperforming other classes ten-fold, but if the conditions for that AOE to work are never met, you'll only have that kinda AOE in your dreams and SIMS.

What I suggested above was a basic idea, aiming to give Assassination some power for shorter AOE phases with weaker, less numerous, enemies - allowing for Assassination to not just be a niche AOE spec, but a viable choice for most AOE scenarios, and maybe even be decent at 3-target cleaving scenarios.

Assassination's AoE damage isn't dependent on Envenom, and if you don't need the sudden burst AoE it's even more beneficial to simply apply Rupture instead. Now Deadly Poison doesn't need to stack to 5 anymore it really doesn't take long for Assassination's AoE damage to ramp up. Frost DKs are a very extreme example considering they are if I'm not mistaken the best AoE/cleave spec in the game but that doesn't mean Assassination's AoE is bad. It's okay for one class to be better at something compared to another class, this game would be very boring if all classes were exactly 100% equal to all other classes. For as far as I'm concerned Assassination's AoE is still the 3rd best in the game and between the 3rd and 4th place is a very large gap. Even on just 4 targets Deadly Poison does some serious work.

Just thinking back at the raiding in MoP I did on my Rogue and how our current Rogues are doing, fights like heroic Feng with his shield phase, Empress Shek'zeer and Wind Lord whatshisface, Assassination does just fine. If we still had the old Cataclysm 5 stack Deadly Poison model they wouldn't have been, no. I seriously don't see the issue and this is honestly the first time I've heard someone complain about Assassination's AoE.

While the AOE isn't dependent on Envenom, from my experience, not using Envenom can have its downsides, as you may or may not be forced to reapply SnD manually following the AOE phase. I have to admit though, I've yet to see the math regarding Envenom vs Crimson Tempest. I'm still unsure which one pulls ahead under what circumstances.

I'll grant you that it's more of a personal dilemma I have with the class than a major design flaw - I just dislike the fact that the best thing I can bring to a 5 sec burst phase is Blade Flurry + Killing Spree(although this might become a little more interesting with the upcoming Blade Flurry change). The thing is; currently, none of our specs bring proper AOE burst. Both our single target and AOE are reliant on sustained uptime. While the Frost DK example may be overkill, it's also a good example of how it can be done "right". Frost DK's bring great AOE burst, while Unholy DK's, much like Assassination rogues, largely rely on Disease spreading, and dot damage. Why not give us a Frost DK equivalent...? I'm a pure class, I'm entitled to special treatment, goddammit!!!

DK's have got variety and the ability to choose between the two. And I'm envious.......! It makes me rage inside to think of a 3 spec pure class without any variety, be it in single-target, AOE, or burst dps, while the common peasantry that are the inbred, hybrid, bastard classes show-case more variety than my glorious rogue master class! For shame!

Just thinking back at the raiding in MoP I did on my Rogue and how our current Rogues are doing, fights like heroic Feng with his shield phase, Empress Shek'zeer and Wind Lord whatshisface, Assassination does just fine.

Assassination does so fine on h feng that you have to all the way to the 271th rank to see 1....

Actually just before MoP's release I made a topic here where we delved quite far into the math. It's been a while but from what I can remember Crimson Tempest was only worth it on exactly 6 mobs, or something weird like that. A few weeks back another topic showed up where a few people explained to me that putting 1 combo point Ruptures on mobs was actually the best way. The latter I'm still not 100% convinced on but it seemed quite right from how it was explained.

I think if you remove Crimson Tempest from your keybinds you will always do well. If you insist on using Crimson Tempest for...some reason 1 in 10 times it will be a miniscule gain and a giant loss the other 9 times. Anyway back on-topic.

I agree that no Rogue specs bring proper burst AoE damage. Personally I consider this a class design choice as Rogues are meant to build up their damage and unleash a giant ability at some point. The latter is what I have a problem with, I think non-Assassination specs should get something like Crimson Tempest without the bleed that simply does high instant damage. I don't find it acceptable that abilities like Eviscerate don't feel that special compared to all the white damage you are doing while building that up. I want to see it hitting for silly numbers like 500k. Feel free to tone down Sinister Strike's damage while you're at it, but Eviscerate should hit like a truck carrying trucks with model trucks inside them. On a truck.

Last thing I'm ending my post with is the following. I understand your complaints, but Rogues aren't Death Knights (or Warriors, Hunters, Mages and so forth). Rogues are leather wearing assassins with daggers. It wouldn't feel right for them to get something like Dragon's Roar or Divine Storm. Once Rogues start swinging giant maces around the whole flavor and theme of the class is gone. Blade Flurry is awesome and that's what I consider a proper Rogue ability. Now that it finally hits more than 1 target I think Rogues are on their way to finally get some things changed for the better.

for one: pls don't always take WoL in order to prove something. classes, which highly rely on rng, like fire mages, will always be on top unless there is a mechanic, that absolutely favors one class/specc.
2nd: i agree with incineration: rogues lack burst aoe. I'd like to see a skill maybe like this:

The rogue throws a test glass with chemicals to a targeted area. the chemicals react with the poisons on the targets, instantly dealing xy dmg but also consume the poisons.

this skill should be assassination-only and deal significantly more dmg than CT. maybe add a cooldown or something.
i don't know, i'm not very creative when it comes to inventing new skills but i guess something like this maybe an option.

Last thing I'm ending my post with is the following. I understand your complaints, but Rogues aren't Death Knights (or Warriors, Hunters, Mages and so forth). Rogues are leather wearing assassins with daggers. It wouldn't feel right for them to get something like Dragon's Roar or Divine Storm. Once Rogues start swinging giant maces around the whole flavor and theme of the class is gone. Blade Flurry is awesome and that's what I consider a proper Rogue ability. Now that it finally hits more than 1 target I think Rogues are on their way to finally get some things changed for the better.

Except we aren't exactly just that. No we aren't those classes either, but rogues are also not so sneaky but agile fighters who use larger weapons including maces to attack. Sure there is the sneaky dagger option, but don't just ignore that we have also been known to wield weapons longer than our character model is high and beat people in the face with them. Now I don't want those moves on my rogue either, but I also absolutely hate the idea that anything they give us needs to be based on stealthy assassins with daggers.

I agree that no Rogue specs bring proper burst AoE damage. Personally I consider this a class design choice as Rogues are meant to build up their damage and unleash a giant ability at some point. The latter is what I have a problem with, I think non-Assassination specs should get something like Crimson Tempest without the bleed that simply does high instant damage. I don't find it acceptable that abilities like Eviscerate don't feel that special compared to all the white damage you are doing while building that up. I want to see it hitting for silly numbers like 500k. Feel free to tone down Sinister Strike's damage while you're at it, but Eviscerate should hit like a truck carrying trucks with model trucks inside them. On a truck.

I find the concept of "building up and unleashing-" kind of restricting. It severely limits play-style variety, and the concept itself is unsound. For the concept to work, the "unleashed power" needs to be sufficiently rewarding, relatively to the amount of time you spend building up to it. That build-up time is quite long, so as you say, that 500k Eviscerate shouldn't exactly be uncommon, but it can't be done for the obvious balance-complications it'd cause. So instead of getting rid of this concept, and trying something new, they've simply toned down finisher damage and added "filler" damage during the build-up period(via auto attacks and poisons). Which I can't exactly condemn them for seeing as it's the only way for them to keep this concept alive without butchering PvP balance, but the solution sacrifices "fun" which is... less desirable.

Building up to a finisher is fine in and of itself, but doing what amounts to the same thing, across 3 specs, isn't the ideal way to make use of said concept. At the very least have us "unleash" noticeably different finishers in each spec, with a touch of flavor if I might add. If the Envenom buff wasn't so passive and its effects so unnoticeable I'd be satisfied with it, but as it is, it's just kinda boring... I'd prefer it on Subtlety, actually. And I'd violate Expose Armor to suit my agenda!

Expose Armor now deals X amounts of instant damage, disregarding X% armor and leaving the Expose Armor debuff for a few seconds. For the duration of the buff, all Backstabs will be crits! How's that for an interesting finisher with a strong impact?! Not only would that make for a more interesting finisher, it'd also give Backstab a reason to exist.

Last thing I'm ending my post with is the following. I understand your complaints, but Rogues aren't Death Knights (or Warriors, Hunters, Mages and so forth). Rogues are leather wearing assassins with daggers. It wouldn't feel right for them to get something like Dragon's Roar or Divine Storm. Once Rogues start swinging giant maces around the whole flavor and theme of the class is gone. Blade Flurry is awesome and that's what I consider a proper Rogue ability. Now that it finally hits more than 1 target I think Rogues are on their way to finally get some things changed for the better.

Horrendous cop-out, I'm afraid to say. (Always wanted to quote LOTR)

Aragorn: "Indeed. I can avoid being seen if I wish, but to disappear entirely, that is a rare gift."

I've not seen or heard of any assassin capable of disappearing in broad day-light, standing right next to his enemies, and be undetectable. Let alone an assassin capable of farting a bit smoke, then disappearing.

On that same note, Warriors are Warriors. They're NOT Norse Gods! Nor are they statues. Nor do they posses the lung capacity of actual dragons... Nonetheless, they've got 3 very interesting abilities in their repertoire that do not actually make sense for a warrior to have. They're fun abilities! The fact that they have them is slightly awkward! But God, do they feel right!

I mean, you can argue semantics all you want, but at the end of the day, World of Warcraft is a game, and not a very realistic one at that. Have you seen/heard/played Assassin's Creed? The main characters are all assassins, but none of them are particularly stealthy. They also use hidden guns and crossbows. They're capable of throwing their daggers! Not ALL assassins are stealthy. Hell, Combat specifically focuses on out-of-stealth Combat!

Rogues/Assassins/Thieves are an archetype. There are lots of visual and interesting possibilities for the class. There's plenty of room for "rogue-ish" flavor - none of which should be responded to with "DATS NOT REALISTIC ON A ROUGE!!!" I'm not sure whether it was you or someone else, but someone on here had the same idea as me, of Shadow Dance essentially creating this "shadow-copy" of yourself, that would mimic your moves and stuff. That's the kinda stuff I'm talking about. Shadow Step, Smoke Bomb, Vanish... All of them are great rogue-like abilities. I'm sure there's at least a COUPLE of other flashy rogue abilities that wouldn't fit on mages, yet do fit on rogues! Seeping poison, body parts enveloped in shadows, infusing enemies with darkness, profuse bleeding caused by bleeds... There's so much that could be done, so much detail to visuals they've simply left out...!

"Doesn't match the rogue archetype" is a terrible excuse. If there's something unbecoming of rogues, it'd be sharing the Tricks of the Trade with someone else..........

I find the concept of "building up and unleashing-" kind of restricting. It severely limits play-style variety, and the concept itself is unsound. For the concept to work, the "unleashed power" needs to be sufficiently rewarding, relatively to the amount of time you spend building up to it. That build-up time is quite long, so as you say, that 500k Eviscerate shouldn't exactly be uncommon, but it can't be done for the obvious balance-complications it'd cause.

of course a 500k eviscerate is too heavy but at least we have to build up combo points for it. a dk simply has to w8 for his KM procc and can do 200k+ obliberates. i don't see why rogues should not get 200k+ eviscerates...

of course a 500k eviscerate is too heavy but at least we have to build up combo points for it. a dk simply has to w8 for his KM procc and can do 200k+ obliberates. i don't see why rogues should not get 200k+ eviscerates...

because blizzard hates rogues and never will give any kind of love to them

the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

-Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

Actually just before MoP's release I made a topic here where we delved quite far into the math. It's been a while but from what I can remember Crimson Tempest was only worth it on exactly 6 mobs, or something weird like that. A few weeks back another topic showed up where a few people explained to me that putting 1 combo point Ruptures on mobs was actually the best way. The latter I'm still not 100% convinced on but it seemed quite right from how it was explained.

It was a measure of energy per cycle or time, but ignored the breakdown of energy expenditure; 1-CP ruptures is far weaker for AoE than 5-CP ruptures because, while the net energy loss/time is greater at 5-CP ruptures, you spend MUCH more of the energy on FoK than rupture. If there's a "sweet spot" between 1 and 5 I can't really fathom a reason for, I wouldn't know how to go about finding it.

Incin again makes a great argument for why the archetype of rogue really shouldn't be holding us back as much as it seems to. I'd also point out that there's not reason you can't exploit a weakness in your opponent and then have him shuffle to cover it, leaving you searching for another, rather than spending time attacking looking for the first... for that matter, you might find several before shanking him. The possibilities for more mechanics, or more complex mechanics, even within our bound archetype, are far more open than the foundation this game has built for us.

Incin again makes a great argument for why the archetype of rogue really shouldn't be holding us back as much as it seems to. I'd also point out that there's not reason you can't exploit a weakness in your opponent and then have him shuffle to cover it, leaving you searching for another, rather than spending time attacking looking for the first... for that matter, you might find several before shanking him. The possibilities for more mechanics, or more complex mechanics, even within our bound archetype, are far more open than the foundation this game has built for us.

I'd like to add that the "rogue archetype" is lacking severely in the thematic department as well; both in basic thematic settings and how said setting interacts with the gameplay. It's kinda hard to claim "X skill doesn't fit into X spec" when you have no idea what X spec is actually representing.

What is a Sub rogue?
What is a Combat rogue?
What is an Assassination rogue?
Do the skills and rotations reflect the background of the specs?
Do the skills and rotations make sense in a practical environment or only on paper?

Each spec needs to be looked at again, I'd say.
- Sub is, in essence, about nuking people from stealth. A deadly stalker who ambushes people from behind... That's been deemed unhealthy for the game, and as such, it has become impossible to do so. Neither does it work very well against targets that are too beefy to nuke and do not care about you(raid bosses). You simply become a less juggernaut-ish, less threatening, slightly awkward warrior, beating away at a brick wall, occasionally stealthing for no apparent reason just to continue beating on said wall. So, in essence, Sub's theme is a dead one and should be replaced or revamped.

- A Combat rogue is essentially a master of melee combat, which Blade Flurry is great at demonstrating, seeing as the rogue show-cases the ability to duel several people at the same time - what doesn't make sense is the fact that he uses poisons or that his special attacks barely do any damage. Combat works thematically, but outside of Blade Flurry, the rotation doesn't reflect the theme of the character. A better suited rotation would boost the spec from a decent spec to a great one.

- Assassination is a cluster fuck and makes no sense thematically nor rotationally, yet works decently in practice. A deadly warrior, utilizing both dagger strikes and poisons to dispatch of his enemy... Strangely enough, the "dagger" aspect of the spec doesn't become a reality until late into a fight, when Dispatch becomes your main builder - it should be your only builder if that description of the spec is to be accurate. Similarly, poisons are mentioned to be at the forefront of the spec, however, they're not actually an active part of your rotation - they're there but they might as well not be. The only two poisons(which is a disgrace in and of itself, when we could have so much variation between damaging poisons) are both applied passively; one by attacking in general and on by applying Rupture. The spec-description itself is fine, but how it's been translated into a rotation is absolutely horrendous.

As a side-note, I'm also dissatisfied with how our resources are being used. Why can energy not be used as a currency for more than combo-point builders? Why do finishers only work with combo points and not with energy? Can't we have more abilities that require the use of energy, and more uses for combo points outside of finishers?

I read the concept of "build and unleash immense power" whaaat? A 120k evis is immense power? The concept of build and unleash fits destro lock, doesn't fit rogue at all atm, a destro lock popping dark soul with trinket procs can fire 4 chaos bolts in a row for monumental amounts of dmg, evis and envenom are just weak like all other rogue's yellow attacks...