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PAX Forumers Logo (Post-PAX East 2011)

So it's been about a month since PAX East and I figured that it's time to regroup and open up the thread for critique of our successes and failures with the current forumer logo. I'm not opening it up to a full redesign just yet, but I want to know what people thought as far as seeing it en masse and having it on stuff. If there are huge parts that need to be redesigned and stuff and a lot of people agree, maybe we'll get another design. Otherwise, I thought it was a great logo, and we should keep it as the official logo. Post away guys.

By the way, I miss all of you guys a lot, and can't wait to be back in Boston next year.

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As I have seen HRM (His Royal Moderatorship) Moe Fwacky post in the Challenge coin threads, having a PAX Forumers logo for the community that is here would be a great thing, and so I am thinking of taking it upon myself to design one, as well as encouraging others to design one as well. So I am posting this here to get some momentum behind the idea as well as getting suggestions for what should go on the logo.

EDIT: To answer a question from below, the main reason to do this is because if this logo or crest for the forums were to be on anything that is for sale, it DIRECTLY violates the copyrights of the Penny Arcade Expo and Penny Arcade. It can READ "Penny Arcade Expo" in a font, but it cannot have the PAX or PAX East logo on it.

Post suggestions and let's get this thing made.

UPDATE 1: Questions To Answer

We have our first big questions so we need answers for them!

1) What do we as a forum/subculture/community/tribe value above all else?
2) What are the common factors that connect us all as PAX Forumers?

UPDATE 2: Community

The current logos are looking awesome, but someone brought up a good point. "What is the definition of community?"

When I originally thought about this logo, I thought that the community we are focusing on is the forum community. I mean this in the sense that the things that we take upon ourselves to plan, execute, organize, and report on. Therefore, any events that we don't have a direct effect in planning are not considered "community events". For example, Omegathon is not a community event, but Cookie Brigade is. So I think that for the most part, we need to focus on the things WE do to personalize the PAX experience.

UPDATE 3:
The wonderful Yamara has been working hard on getting this design done, and the most recent logo draft is awesome. What we have so far is this:

And also an example of the logo on shirts:

It really depends on what you all think, though. Post comments below!

UPDATE 4: False Alarm!

So it seems that there is still some unsure thinking behind the "final draft" that we had for a while, so I think it would be better for me to pull the final draft label off and say it needs more work. Luckily, we still have some time before PAX East, where I personally would like to make it a big reveal of sorts.

The main critiques that I have seen are "too busy" and "doesn't include X". I apologize for any comments regarding what is and isn't a community event, especially any I have made. However, I have a feeling that satisfying both of these criticisms would lead to nothing happening. So I am making this an unofficial official thing (with moderator blessing of course):

We need to get a final draft finished that feels simple and can generally be well liked by all. so to allow for any needed printing and shipping needs (for example, the forum badges and so on using the logo), I am setting a deadline of JANUARY 31, 2011 AT 11:59PM EASTERN STANDARD TIME. Whatever the consensus is at that point is going to be the final design. If we can all agree on that, it will make things more even.

UPDATE 5: FALSE False Alarm!

In agreement with a bunch of people, we now have a final plan. The current "final draft" as designed by Yamara is provisionally accepted as our logo for PAX East. In other words, any and all needed uses of a PAX forum community logo will be Yamara's design. Think of it as a beta test. Once we see the reactions and comments from people at PAX East as well as people ordering stuff with the logo, we will regroup here in April (enough decompression time from the event) and discuss positives and negatives and work from there.

I am totally down for this. I'm not sure about what it should be though. There's clearly some dichotomy over what people think is the geek symbol that best encompasses this very geek-diverse community.

The design will either need to be simple or tastefully complex, an example of the latter being found in all examples of heraldry. Not that I am suggesting we need heraldry. But a logo that represents a group should encapsulate its identity. But our identity is more than videogames/dice/board games/etc., so our logo would need to incorporate something more than that, something which conjures the spirit of the PAX community.

This is a tall order, and I have my own ideas of what identifies us, the main imagery of which I incorporated into the East coin. I might just elaborate on them later.

First we need to identify what makes us us, what brings us together, so on and so forth.
Then we need to develop appropriate imagery for those things. Please offer your ideas on what these may be if you have any.

We weren't allowed to use the PAX logo or any PAX characters/names/likenesses on the challenge coins, so almost certainly not in the forums logo, either. But I'm not Khoo.

Well my understanding is that you can't use the official logos/characters/art on anything that's for sale. The official logos are all over the trading cards and forum badges, for example. Those are all basically personal-use, though, produced by each person and not sold for money. Like I said, it would be a Bad Thing if the forum logo was designed using PA IP and then we wanted to put it on something like the coin. No dice. (heh)

Top things I think we should include in the coat of arms would be at least a classic joystick, a d20, a quarter (for the many we've sacrificed back in the day to the tall wooden electronic cabinets and tables of metal balls and pins), and I can't think of what the fourth item should be....any suggestions?

Top things I think we should include in the coat of arms would be at least a classic joystick, a d20, a quarter (for the many we've sacrificed back in the day to the tall wooden electronic cabinets and tables of metal balls and pins), and I can't think of what the fourth item should be....any suggestions?

Those are good suggestions. Those cover basic tabletop, video games, and arcade. Would we want to cover something like card games as an additional "base genre" ?

Honestly I am personally unable to associate things such as quarters (evocative of an arcade) or a joystick (our roots) as having anything to do with the PAX community. We are more than videogames. Additionally- and I am not knocking any of Kiko or Mike's design work- I think we are better than using imagery that other people have designed for non-community purposes. That and we are NOT Penny Arcade. We are the PAX community, whose name happens to have "PA" as the root of its written identity.

I think a good thing to concentrate on are some of our traditional symbols: Things that have in the past helped to define who we are, or things that have been born of the community. One such symbol would be the blue ball. Though it was a fad, it was a strong fad, and a product of the community. Out of nothing, a sensation was created that only we could have created. Penny Arcade had nothing to do with it, though it happened under their roof. It would work as one of the symbols in a shield or heraldry design, for instance. I should also point out that this is not uncommon: Heraldry designs often incorporate visual elements that are seen as having been hallmarks of or mainstays of the groups that they represent. And, again, I'm not convinced that videogames are our domain: Videogames are the domain of gamers. We are gamers, but we are a proud subdivision of gamers, an exclusive consideration.

I think the icons would be best as: A Wheel (For the CCST) a martini glass with a pokeball speared on a lightning bolt (For the pub crawl), a map (For the MMT) and an old 8 Bit style Roast or Leg of Animal (For the dinner) since when I think of PAX Those are the 4 "Community Events" that instantly spring to mind.

The arcade cabinet and arcade joystick are a bit redundant, no? Also, perhaps a CCG such as Magic instead of the cards?

The Atari 2600 represents home console gaming, the arcade cabinet is harking back to retro as well as MAME cabinets. As for magic cards, Wizards of the Coast will be onto us faster that you can say 'law suit'. I did consider it though

I seem to recall that some good designs for the pre-PAX bar crawls were created for the different teams. (Ugh, I'll admit, I'm leaning toward heraldry for this, despite what I said earlier.) Does anyone know who made those designs? I'd love to get into contact with that person if so.

Moe, can you post a link to the Prime 2010 bar crawl topic? You seem to have disappeared it, and I am too much of a PAX forum noob to know where you put those.

This is a neat idea, and something I'd been considering for the Buttoneers too, because it's impossible to find buttoneers on the expo floor sometimes.

I like the idea of a heraldric logo, but I think it might be too "busy" for some purposes, like incorporating into other community things. But, it's cool. So, I suggest two logos: a simple text one for sticking on tiny things like buttons, or other cases where a more minimal look is needed; and a heraldric one which incorporates the text logo, to be used when it needs to stand alone, like t-shirts and such.

Everyone has really good ideas on what the PAX community is to them. I can try to whip something up incorporating it.

Well for a lot of people the Penny Arcade Expo, and the forums, represent a new community. People feel accepted and have something with which they can start a conversation online or on the Expo floor. PAX has become more than just a comic-inspired video game expo, it's a whole new family. And I say family because you can't always choose the other members, some of them piss you off more than others, but for the most part we are all interested in what each other has to say.

So why the long windedness? To illustrate my opinion that whatever the logo winds up as, it should have more to do with the community itself than our roots per-se. Having references to Penny Arcade or Gaming isn't a bad thing, hell it might even be required, but I fall in line with papaprinny, and I think ZeroHourHero is on the right track.

I hope all that made sense XD

Caelesto on October 2010

In all likelihood, this is my fault. If the current situation is not my fault, please let me know as soon as possible so that I may rectify this oversight. Thank you.
~The Management

Just so you know Yamara, it is unlikely that the very first thing you put together will be final, but I'm sure it will look great whatever it is. We will likely end up having a long-winded discussion for a while after you post your design as to what should and shouldn't be in whatever gets drafted, and it will take a while to reach a general consensus as well.

I am willing to lend my design skills if needed. Not photoshop skills, just drawing sketching and painting skills. But I guess if we come up with a standard coat of arms, anyone is capable of producing their own version of it.

@ Sumi yes we are going for that kind of thing, but without the 8-Bit graphics and reference to Wheaton's Law. I'm personally struggling with trying to do a good job of it without making the thing look terribly amatuer.

I've also been thinking about the community aspect of the images on the shield and I think we should use some of the following instead of the gaming stuff:

1) Steering or car wheel to represent the CCST
2) A cookie for the Cookie Brigade
3) A button badge
4) Train tracks for the WCTT
5) Blue ball for 'All Hail the Ball'.
6) Inflatable sword (care of Bioware)
7) Pint of beer with a pointy hat on it for the Tri Wizard drinking tournament
8) Computer in a bag for BYOC
9) Steel Battalion controller
10) DS with Pictochat running on it.

The surrounding it will be icons of gaming, such as a the D20, NES D-Pad and other items. To the average person the shield images would not be recognisable. To a PAX attendee however, they would mean something.

Here's a basic logo, to adorn with whatever else we might want. It includes the main logo, one in just black and white, a simpler one for adding to tiny buttons, and one with the current year. I was trying to make it flexible and clear, and trying to make it identify with PAX without trodding on the logo identity for PAX.

Let me know what you think. If people like it, we should run it by Khoo to make sure it's sufficiently different enough for PA's liking.

People seem to prefer the community icons to be more about the community and less about just the gaming. So, from that end, I've been making a list, expanded from ZeroHourHero's list and other chime-ins, of what the community is, and maybe what could be used for it:

The prank (rampant horse and salmon on either side of the shield seemed like a neat idea)

I'm not sure I can cram all that in, but I will do my best. Also, given the community changes from year to year, we could change around things for this whole heraldric idea if new themes emerge. I was thinking the we could use the phrase "strangers are friends" in Latin. I like idea of "All Hail Ball", but I'm not sure it would fit the look (and it doesn't seem to translate).

Yamara, I like your idea of combining things are both PAX East and PAX Prime into one logo (such as the Pokeball speard with lightning.) I think one thing that is important to remember is the community we call PAX now consists of two very distinct events, and some combining of the two is key. I also like the idea of "Welcome Home" as the logo (translated into whatever language we as a community choose.)

Here's a particularly extreme draft version of what I'm slowly working on. Hence the text in funny places. I'll put some kind of car plane and train icon at the top. (the buttons cards mmt text was just moved when I started drawing in their respective spots.) It needs some more layers and extraneous bits everywhere to tie in the different things together.

Like itzerokewl says, the community logo should embrace both events. That's why I'm avoiding symbols like the space needle. Let me know what you think so far.

Looks great so far. However, I am on the fence with the font, it being similar to Kiko's PAX font. I would prefer that we select a font that we can make our own and set us apart from Penny Arcade.
Additionally, I'm not sure that I'm very wild about the four primary colors on the shield. The only alternative that makes sense to me is to use a plain white background, possibly with variations in the field. Variations in the field can be eschewed for whatever designs we place over the shield.
However, in a complete reversal of my rationale for avoiding the font because Kiko did it, I do like the idea of the horse on the right appearing as red, while the horse on the left would appear as blue (right horse = PAX East = red, left horse = PAX Prime = blue). Since the horses are considered to be the "supporters" in the heraldic design, it is fitting that they hold up the PAX community. Without PAX, the community does not exist. The only problem is that this would completely ignore the future plight of PAX Europe and, say, its green color. The response to such a concern is that PAX Prime and PAX East are the originals, that which PAX grew from. When PAX South Africa 2035 rolls around, people would ideally look at the red and blue horse on the design and see that PAX had its roots in East and Prime.

As for community imagery, I am going to state my own, unbridled opinions of some of the strongest symbols of the community, which I have been unwilling to do thus far so as to appear somewhat impartial.

For the shield:
The DS is perhaps the biggest symbol of PAX. Everyone who has a DS brings theirs to PAX. It is the most prolific and common thing at each event, and has been since PAX 2005. Sure, it's a commercial symbol, but we have made it our own. The PAX attendee carries a DS.
Another thing I like about the community is the fact that we literally make great stuff out of nothing. One of the greatest things to be produced out of nothing in all of PAX lore is the blue ball. We took something unremarkable and turned it into a phenomenon, literally (and remarkably) the high-point of PAX 2006 for everyone involved. Such is one of our greatest achievements that continues to be talked about to this day.

These two things would fill up two quadrants. These, to me, are shoe-in imagery that absolutely deserve to represent what the community is capable of, as well as represent the community's roots of greatness.

What the other two quadrants should be filled with is still up in the air for me.

As for the idea of using imagery for things such as the magical mystery tour... How long has that been a tradition for? I am disinclined to celebrate traditions that are not yet tradition, as they may fall by the way side. I would be most interested in celebrating a strong PAX tradition that has stood the test of time.

Now... for those of you dedicated to the idea of making this great, I have some links for you:

Yes, there are rules and common conventions for the construction of a heraldic design or a coat of arms. An investigation into heraldry leads to things such as the rules of heraldry, the supporter, the motto, the crest, etc. An understanding of heraldry and its intricacies will help us to better select appropriate imagery that not only will work as symbols that we understand, but as symbols that withstand comparison with other, more traditional heraldic designs.

I'm going to have to disagree with your stance prinny. The ball hasn't actually stood the test of time, as many of our current community members were not around for the ball. The Magical Mystery Tour, however, has proven itself to be a semi-annual tradition, and I think it does deserve a place in the design.

If the DS is included, I see it as being more faded into the background of the shield as a whole, but I do not view it as necessary to the piece.