Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Yes, I think so. I didn't mean to question that. I posted that video only because I understood there would be no highfalls from shiho nage according to Saito Morihiro sensei.

I don't see the point of this discussion: Christian is explicetly known to not muscling his technique through, and also to be very, very carfull and aware regarding his uke.
Actually the well-being of uke is a major criterion in our examinations.

If Tissier or anbody else took a beginner and threw him like shown would the junior survive? I think not. Cheers, Joe.

I wrote in my comment that you cited above that this kind of throwing is practiced with uke who are skilled enough, not with beginners. How I said before, I never heard about any broken elbow in Tissiers classes or seen in the seminars that I have attended. So the practice seems to be save enough.

I'm not one of Tissiers students, but I know what it feels like to be thrown by him.

Actually Tissier's shihonage is quite different from the way I have seen his teacher, Seigo Yamaguchi, do it.

Alex

Dear Alex
You beat me to the punch with your comment about Yamaguchi Sensei .Cannot say I ever saw him doing a Shiho Nage in the manner of Tissier Sensei.For that matter another teacher of Tissier the second doshu never did shiho nage like Tissier .what more can be said?Cheers, Joe.

I wrote in my comment that you cited above that this kind of throwing is practiced with uke who are skilled enough, not with beginners. How I said before, I never heard about any broken elbow in Tissiers classes or seen in the seminars that I have attended. So the practice seems to be save enough.

I'm not one of Tissiers students, but I know what it feels like to be thrown by him.

Msrkus,

Unless you want to break a guys elbow deliberately , you should I hope try and throw students be they dan g rade or beginner in a safe manner.I was asking the hypothetical question , if a raw beginner was ubjected to the type of shiho nage shown by Tissier would the newbie be ok?A simple yes or no would be welcome/suffice as an answer.Cheers, Joe.

still I don't get your Point:
"If a raw beginner was subjected to the type of shiho nage shown by" Saito Morihiro sensei, shown in the video, I linked, "would the newbie be ok?"

To my experience for every technique there exist - mostly three - different ways to execute it appropriate to uke's skills. The question whether a newbie would be harmed or not is irrelevant. Because a newbie would not be thrown this way.

Plus:
The way to execute shiho nage shown in the video does not primarily work against the ellbow joint but into the longitudinal axis of the arm. Especially the version using the nearly stretched arm of uke.

I was asking the hypothetical question , if a raw beginner was ubjected to the type of shiho nage shown by Tissier would the newbie be ok?A simple yes or no would be welcome/suffice as an answer.Cheers, Joe.

If you do it slow and relaxed, lead him down and loose the grip early enough to let him roll freely, a talented beginner can survive it.
But thats the same for the shihonage you prefer.
You can do it in a way a beginner would not come back again next training.
Arikawa Sensei used to throw shihonage ura waza in a way your back of the head banged on the mat and made you see the stars. And he did it with beginners who had their very first lesson. That was the experience of my teacher when he stepped into hombu dojo the first time.
So it always depends on the way you do it.
The shihonage ueshiba shows on the photo is not a technique for saving an opponent. You can do it in a save way, but thats the same for almost every other technique .

still I don't get your Point:
"If a raw beginner was subjected to the type of shiho nage shown by" Saito Morihiro sensei, shown in the video, I linked, "would the newbie be ok?"

To my experience for every technique there exist - mostly three - different ways to execute it appropriate to uke's skills. The question whether a newbie would be harmed or not is irrelevant. Because a newbie would not be thrown this way.

Plus:
The way to execute shiho nage shown in the video does not primarily work against the ellbow joint but into the longitudinal axis of the arm. Especially the version using the nearly stretched arm of uke.

Dear Carsten .
I equally donot get point.Saito Senseis Shiho Nage imo would throw a beginner possibly up in the air , but i do not think the beginner would risk elbow joint damage.I was addressing Tissier Senseis waza which i feel is unsafe .I asked the question would a beginner survive an elbow crusher.
Shiho nage works because uke elbow joint is pointing upwards and pressure is applied in a downward manner .This breaks ukes posture to the rear. Simple body mechanics .Havent got much time for longitudinal axis of arm stuff.Science /anatomy was never my strong point.Joe.

so without using the word "longitudinal axis" and other sophisticated stuff.

Christians waza is not an ellbow crusher at all. It simply - and safely - guides uke to roll forward. I actually have practiced this with a lot of beginners being tori. And I have fellt it, when I myself was a beginner.
If uke is more experienced you can also guide him to take a high fall.

This is, because the waza is not made to affect and destroy wrist or ellbow, but to use wrist and ellbow to affect and bend the torso, the body of uke.

Two more thoughts:
I have heard people from other styles who tried this way of shiho nage often say, it would be too soft and not "budō-like", because uke is only guided to the ground, but not "thrown". And that it lacks martial aspect, because neither ellbow nor wrist nor shoulder actually is attacked.
Plus: It is my experience, that Christian takes care of children and beginners a lot. It is his concern that everybody can enjoy practice. Literally everybody.
I've heard him scolding one of his students because he lacked caution.
I've more than once seen him working with beginners and also with children during his seminar. While his fifth and sixth dan students had to play with themselves ...

The experience that touched me most: There was a woman, practicing for about ten years or so. But still not being able to do a forward roll. Christian saw her, watched her taught her. After about twenty minutes she did her first forward roll ever. Years ago, but her smile I still warms my heart.
It was a seminar with maybe three hundred people or so ...

So, I'm not talking about the rights or wrongs of shiho nage here, but only about Christian as a teacher.

Quote:

Joe Curran wrote:

I was addressing Tissier Senseis waza which i feel is unsafe .I asked the question would a beginner survive an elbow crusher.

so without using the word "longitudinal axis" and other sophisticated stuff.

Christians waza is not an ellbow crusher at all. It simply - and safely - guides uke to roll forward. I actually have practiced this with a lot of beginners being tori. And I have fellt it, when I myself was a beginner.
If uke is more experienced you can also guide him to take a high fall.

This is, because the waza is not made to affect and destroy wrist or ellbow, but to use wrist and ellbow to affect and bend the torso, the body of uke.

Two more thoughts:
I have heard people from other styles who tried this way of shiho nage often say, it would be too soft and not "budō-like", because uke is only guided to the ground, but not "thrown". And that it lacks martial aspect, because neither ellbow nor wrist nor shoulder actually is attacked.
Plus: It is my experience, that Christian takes care of children and beginners a lot. It is his concern that everybody can enjoy practice. Literally everybody.
I've heard him scolding one of his students because he lacked caution.
I've more than once seen him working with beginners and also with children during his seminar. While his fifth and sixth dan students had to play with themselves ...

The experience that touched me most: There was a woman, practicing for about ten years or so. But still not being able to do a forward roll. Christian saw her, watched her taught her. After about twenty minutes she did her first forward roll ever. Years ago, but her smile I still warms my heart.
It was a seminar with maybe three hundred people or so ...

So, I'm not talking about the rights or wrongs of shiho nage here, but only about Christian as a teacher.

Dear Carsten,
If that is indeed your experience thats ok by me. You have your viewpont [which i respect].I have mine. Lets say we beg to differ. Good debate anyway. Cheers,Joe.

We can clearly see he is not breaking uke balance before a throw. I was his uke few times for shihonage, so I could feel it very well. Instead, he introduced a ‘code’ – the way how uke must behave, so nage can practice his technique. That is his teaching. So in reality uke is jumping in the air by himself for fun and not because nage is creating correct conditions to do it.

We can clearly see he is not breaking uke balance before a throw. I was his uke few times for shihonage, so I could feel it very well. Instead, he introduced a ‘code' -- the way how uke must behave, so nage can practice his technique. That is his teaching. So in reality uke is jumping in the air by himself for fun and not because nage is creating correct conditions to do it.

We can clearly see he is not breaking uke balance before a throw. I was his uke few times for shihonage, so I could feel it very well. Instead, he introduced a ‘code' -- the way how uke must behave, so nage can practice his technique. That is his teaching. So in reality uke is jumping in the air by himself for fun and not because nage is creating correct conditions to do it.

"code" oder "agreement" in Christian's words describe a crucial aspect of practicing kata: tori and uke agree about what they practice. To my experience during seminars regular keiko with Christian is allways and with no exception kata practice. And I've heared him explicetly say that more than once.

It is good practise to allow a beginner to complete the exercise with 'some help' of tori. Getting the bigger picture, the flow of the technique is of utmost importance in that phase.

Later, when more experienced, tori will never allow himself to be off balance and takes ukemi when he feels he loses his balance. He is not thrown by aite, ever! That would indicate that he is too late with responding to the fact that he is losing (lost) his balance. In short, he just made a mistake.

We are taught that tori also does Aikido, also keeps control of the situation, does not allow himself to get unbalanced. aite/tori, student/teacher, yin/yang. One cannot exist without the other.

It is not a question of demonstration or regular practise. That suggests you do different things, which you should not. Ever watched one of the high rank 'original' Japanese teachers (Tamura, Tada, Endo, Tohei)? in demo and in lesson? no difference at all.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl

Hi, I am the producer of the video.
Due to the fact that Christian Tissier performs a constantly evolving aikido and the video is shortened, it is necessary to put the shihounage-issue in the right context.
It is all about getting uke to be more and more an equal partner in his developement. On this and other seminars Christian showed how to absorb the usual attemt of shihounage and therefore nage has to change the way of doing. It is ment for very advanced uke following an elaborated developement, adding new qualities and making nage better. It is not ment for being more brutal and I exclusively saw Christian doing it this only to someone who is capable of dealing with it without pain or harm.
Greetings, Bernhard

It is all about getting uke to be more and more an equal partner in his developement. On this and other seminars Christian showed how to absorb the usual attemt of shihounage and therefore nage has to change the way of doing. It is ment for very advanced uke following an elaborated developement, adding new qualities and making nage better.

This is precisely what I responded to. There is no difference between aite(uke) and tori(nage) when practising. There is only difference in their role to study the technique. Aite will adapt to the experience level of tori. For beginners this translates to learning the global shape/flow of the technique. On more advanced level aite will help tori less and less, until the point where tori must really take the balance of aite. Aite at the same time will not allow himself to be forced off balance and takes ukemi to prevent loss of balance (i.e. loss of control).

Both aite and tori will (at advanced level) maintain their posture and balance at all times, even when taking ukemi. As aite you should not BE thrown, you escape the technique by taking ukemi.

This aspect seems overlooked by many, many practisioners of Aikido, dare I say Aikidoka's?

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl

On more advanced level aite will help tori less and less, until the point where tori must really take the balance of aite. Aite at the same time will not allow himself to be forced off balance and takes ukemi to prevent loss of balance (i.e. loss of control).

How can tori ever know whether he really is able to take ukes balance?

If you get thrown by a skilled person, you can't prevent from loosing control, you just can prevent from getting hurt.

Quote:

Tim Ruijs wrote:

As aite you should not BE thrown, you escape the technique by taking ukemi.

If you practice aikido as a form of contact dance, it might work this way.

A more skilled tori will break your balance, control you, throw you and pin you on the ground. In that case you are not the one who determines the action.

. On more advanced level aite will help tori less and less, until the point where tori must really take the balance of aite.

That never happens in Ch. Tissier style. I had a chance to practice with his many very high ranking students, every time I was corrected to follow famous 'code'. They simply don't accept when uke moves other way and get immediately angry. The root of theirs behavior is they don't know what to do with different reactions of attacker and how to control him in safe way.

So I lost interest to practice with this style because this ‘code' (in short or long term) doesn't allow the development of spontaneous creation of the techniques. And this is in contradiction with O sensei teaching.

How can tori ever know whether he really is able to take ukes balance?

Aite should (at higher level) only take ukemi when he feels he can no longer keep his balance.
It is this fine line where your Aikido evolves.....

Quote:

Markus Rohde wrote:

If you get thrown by a skilled person, you can't prevent from loosing control, you just can prevent from getting hurt.

That 'skilled' person does not really adapt to your level, now is he? Yin/Yang, there should balance between aite and tori (see fine line above).

Quote:

Markus Rohde wrote:

If you practice aikido as a form of contact dance, it might work this way.

A more skilled tori will break your balance, control you, throw you and pin you on the ground. In that case you are not the one who determines the action.

Again, he is not adapting to the level of aite. You should avoid this type of person, or educate them.
Unfortunately, many practisioners of Aikido act like that...these I do not consider Aikidoka's, but dangerous. They are in competition with you, not 'do'.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl

That never happens in Ch. Tissier style. I had a chance to practice with his many very high ranking students, every time I was corrected to follow famous 'code'. They simply don't accept when uke moves other way and get immediately angry. The root of theirs behavior is they don't know what to do with different reactions of attacker and how to control him in safe way.

So I lost interest to practice with this style because this ‘code' (in short or long term) doesn't allow the development of spontaneous creation of the techniques. And this is in contradiction with O sensei teaching.

I have never really practised on the tatami, but attended a seminar he (Tissier) gave years ago in Amsterdam. I noticed that while Tissier himself appeared to have some skill (explosive form), his students (which he brought from France) were not able to do what he did, You could not tell who these students were in the group af about 50 students.
In seminars with my teacher, you can immediately tell who his students are and who are not...even the lower ranks students....

I must admit that I always enjoyed the demonstrations Tissier gave in Bercy

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl