At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are. [1]

“And what does he understand as it really is? He understands as it really is: ‘This is suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’

“Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are.

“Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’ [2] An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”

2. Tasmātiha bhikkhave idaṃ dukkhan ti yogo karaṇīyo. Spk: Since a concentrated bhikkhu understands the Four Noble Truths as they really are, therefore you should make an exertion to become concentrated in order to understand the four truths as they really are. And since the round of existence increases for those who do not penetrate them, but stops increasing from the time they are penetrated, therefore you should make an exertion to understand them, thinking, “Let the round not increase for us.”

“And what does he understand as it really is? He understands as it really is: ‘This is suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’

SN 22.5 wrote:"Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness.

The latter translation, by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, differs from Bhikkhu Bodhi's more traditional translation and is, presumably, a more of a word-for-word rendering.

I wonder if, when BB translated that sutta, he might not have been still influenced by the Comy model of a lokuttara (supramundane) citta operating on a moment-to-moment basis.

I think the argument can be made that the yathābhūta (as has come to be) refers to the quality of seeing origination and cessation in accordance with or in terms of Dependant Origination. You get this sense coming out clearly in SN 12.31 - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html -

Do you see, Sariputta, that 'this has come to be'?""One sees with right discernment, lord, that 'this has come to be.'

Strangely, the yathābhūtaṃ above is left untranslated. Unless it were a peculiar idiom, the phrase "yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passati" should read "One sees with right understanding that is yathābhūta", where yathābhūta is the adjective to the noun sammappaññā (right understanding).

What is quite interesting is how Ven Sariputta then applies yathābhūta in the context of yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññā

One sees with right discernment, lord, that 'this has come to be.' Seeing with right discernment that 'this has come to be,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what has come to be (bhūtassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya ). One sees with right discernment that 'it has come to be from this nutriment.' Seeing with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of the nutriment by which it has come to be. One sees with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come to be is subject to cessation.' Seeing with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come to be is subject to cessation,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a learner.

I've taken the liberty of tweaking Ven T's "it has come into being" with the more idiomatic "it has come to be". There also seems to be a significant difference in BB's translation. For āhārasambhava which Ven T renders as "the nutriment by which it has come into being", BB renders as "originationthrough nutriment". These wretched compounds are simply difficult to translate.

Sylvester wrote:I wonder if, when BB translated that sutta, he might not have been still influenced by the Comy model of a lokuttara (supramundane) citta operating on a moment-to-moment basis.

Do you mean Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of SN 56.1: “Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are."Or Thanissaro Bhikkhus's translation of SN 22.5:"Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being."?

Apologies for the confusion. I was referring to BB's translation, which looks very real-time (ie the knowledge arises concurrently with the event). That is of course possible in the Commentarial model of insight into DO on a per-citta basis, but somewhat ill-fitting with the 3 lives presentation.

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are.

“And what does he understand as it really is? He understands as it really is: ‘This is suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’

And you say:

[This] looks very real-time (ie the knowledge arises concurrently with the event). That is of course possible in the Commentarial model of insight into DO on a per-citta basis, but somewhat ill-fitting with the 3 lives presentation.

One could translate very literally and render the bhūta as "has become". That would be how bhūta as the past participle of bhavati (becomes/is) may be translated very literally. BB's translation (were it not based on the Comy gloss) might lead one to think that the Pali was yathābhavati instead of yathābhūta.

Sylvester wrote:One could translate very literally and render the bhūta as "has become". That would be how bhūta as the past participle of bhavati (becomes/is) may be translated very literally. BB's translation (were it not based on the Comy gloss) might lead one to think that the Pali was yathābhavati instead of yathābhūta.

I think the present perfect is suitable here, but couldn't it be rendered:

"Do you see, Sariputta, 'this has come to be'?"

"One sees with right understanding, lord, how 'this has come to be' has come to be. Seeing how 'this has come to be' has come to be one practices for the disenchantment, the dispassion, the cessation of what has come to be."?

Therefore, surely, O monks, whatever form, past, future or present, internal or external, coarse or fine, low or lofty, far or near, all that form must be regarded with proper wisdom, according to reality, thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.'' (Mendis)

Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' (Ven T)

So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.' (Ven Nanamoli)

Could the 3 translators be reading the yathābhūtaṃ as being in apposition to sammappaññā? I have to confess though, I'd have expected yathābhūta to be in the same case as sammappaññā if they were in apposition. Perhaps this is a case where yathābhūtaṃ is functioning adverbially to qualify the verbs daṭṭhabba and passati. Warder calls this type of accusative an "action qualifier" (kiriyāvisesana) and the reading gives an example in "bhūtapubbaṃ ... agamāsi" (in the past ... it went).

Sylvester wrote: Perhaps this is a case where yathābhūtaṃ is functioning adverbially to qualify the verbs daṭṭhabba and passati. Warder calls this type of accusative an "action qualifier" (kiriyāvisesana) and the reading gives an example in "bhūtapubbaṃ ... agamāsi" (in the past ... it went).

I think you're probably right here. The question is how to interpret yathābhūtaṃ . I prefer Ven. Ñanamoli's rendering "how it is" in that it more strongly suggests a structural element in one's seeing.

I agree, and I suspect we are on the same page in thinking that DO is that structure. Now the question then is whether the sutta statements on DO should be interpreted vide -

- the Vibhanga's per citta and 3 lives models;- the Comy's interpretation of the Abhidhammic per citta presentation into a per moment model- or modern commentaries etc etc.

Unless someone found a visual way to fold the linear graph of DO back onto itself at common points (eg consciousness overlaps contact, or volition overlaps craving), I'm not really enthusiastic about the Abhi and Comy digitised models.

As is common in the Samyutta Nikaya, there is a lot of repetition in the suttas following this one. SN 56.2 substitutes "seclusion" for "concentration". SN 56.3 mentions homelessness. SN 56.7 talks about abandoning unwholesome thoughts. SN 56.8 talks about abandoning speculation about the worldand so on...

1. “Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; 381 union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.

2. “Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination.

3. “Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it.

4. “Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: [422] it is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view … right concentration.

and subsequent suttas repeat some of these elaborations, e.g. SN 56.13 mentions the aggregates as the noble truth of suffering, SN 56.14 the sense bases.

Sylvester wrote:Unless someone found a visual way to fold the linear graph of DO back onto itself at common points (eg consciousness overlaps contact, or volition overlaps craving), I'm not really enthusiastic about the Abhi and Comy digitised models.

Are you familiar with Husserl's theory of categorial intuition? Categorial intuition begins -- structurally, not temporally -- at the sensual level.

In his letter disclosing his attainment Ven. Ñanavira states that he had been a dhammānusārī for a month. The letter is dated 27 June 1959. In a letter written to Ven. Ñanamoli dated 28 May 1959 (EL. 102) he pretty much explains the gist of the theory in the language of the Suttas.