@ROMANG.1903 said:
I don't like your idea but I'd like something like reducing the attunement cooldown when we dual attune (2 seconds?) so we don't lock ourselves for 4 seconds when we want to access that 3rd skill

I feel like a broken record here. Double attuning isn't worth the cost of 8 seconds of horrible auto attacks for one skill. In a team fight its impossible to know what you will need 4 seconds in the future, or even in a 1v1 if the player is good. If you can somehow manage this I would love to see it.

Whether or not double attuning is worth it depends entirely on the skill you get out of it. Remember you'll be getting 3 skills out of double attuning, usually 3,4 AND 5 for the element you're attuning to. Is it worth double attuning for Flame Burst? probably not. Is it worth it for Flame Burst AND Burning Retreat? Usually yes. Remember, while your skill bar will show the same auto-attack for 8 seconds you won't LITERALLY be auto attacking for 8 seconds straight. Quick example on staff:

We just attuned Fire from Air. We've got 4 seconds on attune CD to use our 4 non-auto weapon skills. Font, Plasma, Speed, and Stun. We can actually start with Font, its instant-cast, and has a short cooldown, burn through the other 3 abilities, auto attack twice, and then we can attune fire again. Now we've got 4 seconds to burn through Burning Retreat, Flame Burst, and Meteor Shower. Meteor shower alone will take most of the attune CD, PLUS lava font will be off CD again halfway through our attune CD so for the second Attune CD we don't have room for any auto attacks unless we WANT to.

You'll note that we even have access to Burning Retreat, so we've got BOTH offensive and defensive abilities. That's part of what allows us to avoid having to ACTUALLY predict the future. We can plot out a rotation that will always give us access to some defensive or offensive abilities as we need them, but it DOES take practice. For any TRULY key defensive/offensive abilities, we have utility skills. I tend to put my defenses on utilities so I can always stunbreak when I need. That's part of what makes finding room for Unravel hard.

I actually did play around with Unravel, and it turns out its pretty good. It ends up playing like a two-charge version of mesmer's duplicate. You can start in an element pair, go 2345->unravel->345->attune(because unravel resets the CD)->2345. Now you still need to keep track of what abilities are on CD within your weapons, but its at the very LEAST a good ability for some cheesy burst build, and I suspect actually has some good gameplay around it if you're good at defending without relying on utilities.

I will admit, non-sword weapons are less smooth in their use of double-attune, but I don't think its that bad when you play it out.

Well first I think there is much cognitive bias through out this post, and little to none evidence in this “discussion”.
It is more a I want to be right topic.
You do make a point, in pointing out the dual skill synergy in the traits, clearly they are there for some reason.

Also as I talked with cellofrag about his new “ultimate build”, it is still very flawed, due to (as you state) you missing the power to “push”.
Weaver feels like a weaker (imo though) thief in pvp, having the same decap and +1 role, but with lesser disengaging and movility tools.
They can evade and tank for pretty long, but in that time a thief could 1v1 and kill an opponents (though he is still encourage to +1 for safety).

I think a bit more passive defence (like just up the vitality and make it baseline and not a choice), a bit more dmg, and then you would find Weaver to be in a better spot.
I do not think granting use one extra skill (or four) would solve anything.
It would in best case just enhance the +1 style, and not solve much around veing a weaver.

Double attuning takes 4 sec? If i'm in water and I want magnetic aura, I first have to attune to earth** (4 sec) then double attune (another 4 sec) and by that time, in sPvp, you're dead**. But let's say you somehow survive- if I want to return to my rotation, I have to attune to another element (4 sec), which is a huge waste of time.

Kind of a cherry pick, staff+fire is probably the only thing that would actually keep one busy the entire time it takes to double attune. If what you say is true about plotting out a rotation, then why aren't we seeing anything else but sword in pvp? Granted the other weapons need more help then my idea. Unravel falls short imo. Why have something as a utility when it could be an inherent feature?

Btw D/F is actually quite a good weapon set, as I said earlier steam surge having a little longer water field would be nice (even if you reduce healing per tick) and Ashen Blast I'd like to see being an AoE instead of a weird cone effect. Otherwise I'd say dagger main hand is actually in a decent spot for weaver. If you don't agree give it a real try (couple of evenings playing) and consider the 2 suggestions I said.

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:
Here’s my 2 coppers: get rid of Unravel. Replace it with something more meaningful. Then make double attunement CD free. Normal switching still retains the CD.

I don't advise for CD free as you still get a benefit from it, which should come at a cost. Also as a fresh air weaver I often find myself double attuning to air when I only wanted to partially attune, removing the double attunement CD would lead to this problem on every attunement. I think 2 seconds is a good middle ground. Perhaps also reduce all attunements' cooldowns to 2 seconds when we dual attune?

That way, for example, you could attune to Fire, which would launch the normal cooldown on all attunements (4 seconds) except for the Fire attunement which would only have a 2 seconds cooldown. Then if you double attune to Fire, all the elements get a 2 seconds cooldown instead of a 4 seconds cooldown.

So you still remove 4 seconds out of the rotation, but it's not as clunky as simply removing the double attunement cooldown.

OR rework Unravel into a not-a-stance thing that simply makes us fully attune once (instead of placing a weird "buff" on us) and make it baseline on the weapon swap button.

Thing is, if you play weaver long enough, you get used to playing it. Meaning, you will get used to thinking ahead in each situation and know when to go double attuned or not. I now go double attuned without much thoughts or problems, partly because of the traitline giving me extra damage, but also because some of the skills are good to use and I learned how to rotate around to make use of certain skills (mostly use staff or sword/dagger and sword/focus for WvW and PvE).

In pve raids, it is even essential you double attune to fire and air to keep dps up.
sword weaver in pve is insane on dps if you use it correctly.

@Retsuko.2035 said:
lots of things said by people. Not going to read it, sorry.

Thing is, if you play weaver long enough, you get used to playing it. Meaning, you will get used to thinking ahead in each situation and know when to go double attuned or not. I now go double attuned without much thoughts or problems, partly because of the traitline giving me extra damage, but also because some of the skills are good to use and I learned how to rotate around to make use of certain skills (mostly use staff or sword/dagger and sword/focus for WvW and PvE).

In pve raids, it is even essential you double attune to fire and air to keep dps up.
sword weaver in pve is insane on dps if you use it correctly.

dummies and scripted fights is where you think ahead, in pvp combat, you react and counterplay.

"Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

@apharma.3741 said:
Btw D/F is actually quite a good weapon set, as I said earlier steam surge having a little longer water field would be nice (even if you reduce healing per tick) and Ashen Blast I'd like to see being an AoE instead of a weird cone effect. Otherwise I'd say dagger main hand is actually in a decent spot for weaver. If you don't agree give it a real try (couple of evenings playing) and consider the 2 suggestions I said.

It's rare for me to agree with you but yeah..d/f weaver is a more team oriented version of sword weaver hence a tad harder to take down during team fights, on the bad side I'd say that ashen blast is the most horrible one, not only does little dmg but also the blind is not instant making it less reliable

-A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"