Ridley Scott and Alien

I felt the urge to open this topic, not in defense of Sir Ridley Scott, because he doesn't need any, but to make things clearer, after seeing that more and more people question Ridley Scott's huge contribution for the Alien franchise, by stating that he is merely the director.

While not minimizing the rest of the people involved their merits, we have to acknowledge, once and for all, that, without Ridley Scott, the Alien we all love would have been a totally different film. I summarized below some relevant facts about Ridley Scott's contribution during the production of Alien (big thanks to Strange Shapes, where I found most of the info compiled below).

Firstly, on the story, without Ridley Scott we would not have today the xenomorph of an alien origin, but created by the Company - it remains to be seen after Alien Covenant if David created the xenomorph or just his own variant (excerpts from Strange Shapes):

"Here is a breakdown of the two plots. Giler and Hill’s version is a summary of their script before O’Bannon and Shusett urged Ridley Scott to have the script revised.

Dan O’Bannon’s Alien, a synopsis: the crew of the commercial vehicle ‘Snark’ awaken from cryosleep on a return voyage to Earth. Their ship’s computer has detected an SOS beacon of unknown origin emanating from a nearby planetoid. The crew land, and find a derelict spacecraft containing the corpse of a dead alien pilot. Nearby they find another structure; an ancient pyramid, containing mysterious spore. One of them is attacked and impregnated; the creature erupts during a meal after the ship has continued its journey to Earth. The crew are picked off one by one until only Roby survives, along with the ship’s cat. The Alien is ejected from the emergency shuttle and vapourised. The Snark itself is destroyed. Roby enters cryosleep for the journey home.

Walter Hill & David Giler’s Alien, a synopsis: the crew of the commercial vehicle ‘Nostromo’ awaken from cryosleep on a return voyage to Earth. Their ship’s computer has detected an SOS beacon of unknown origin emanating from a nearby planetoid. The crew land, and find a derelict spacecraft containing the corpse of a dead human pilot. Nearby they find another structure; a concrete Cylinder, containing mysterious spore. One of them is attacked and impregnated; the creature erupts during a meal after the ship has continued its journey to Earth. The crew are picked off one by one, and the Science Officer Ash is revealed to be a Company robot. Ash reveals that the crew were led to the Cylinder deliberately, to serve as test subjects for the weapons division – the Alien is one of the Company’s bioweapons. In the end, only Ripley survives, along with the ship’s cat. The Alien is ejected from the emergency shuttle and vapourised. The Nostromo itself is destroyed. Ripley enters cryosleep for the journey home.

As already pointed out, O’Bannon and Shusett intervened to have Hill and Giler’s draft rewritten to incorporate the alien elements that they had excised. “Ridley read [the original script] and went, ‘Oh yes. We have to go back to the first way. Definitely.'” Though Giler and Hill acquiesced to Scott’s demand, they still managed to infuse the script with the paranoia of a Big Brother corporate entity whose sheer size and oversight leads to the deaths of its employees in some dark corner of space."

Secondly, on the creatures, although O'Bannon introduced Giger to the producers, the key to hiring Giger was Ridley Scott, as O'Bannon himself testifies (thanks to Strange Shapes again):

"The only problem with Giger was the reluctance of Twentieth Century Fox and the film’s producers to hire him. Giger had initially worked on a commission from O’Bannon and Shusett, and though he had begun preliminary design work, he had yet to be brought onto the film in an official capacity. “This man is sick,” producer Gordon Carroll is quoted as saying, having seen Giger’s designs. “I fought a year with Fox to hire Giger,” O’Bannon told Science Fiction Film Making magazine in the 1980’s. “I wrote the script so Giger could design those things, and then they picked up the script and said, ‘Naw, we don’t want this guy. When has he ever designed a movie?’”

“I had a heck of a time trying to get the producers to hire Giger,” said O’Bannon elsewhere. “They really didn’t want to get him involved because he’s not a movie professional; he was some ‘whing-ding’ in Zurich. They wanted to find somebody who had done this before, that they could count on.” Ron Shusett chips in: “The studio let us hire Cobb, because he was more normal. Giger, they were terrified of. They said, ‘these drawings are repulsive – people will stay away in droves.’ For eight months they refused to hire him.”

The key to hiring Giger was Ridley Scott, as O’Bannon explains: “When Ridley came to the project, Ronnie was rushing up with the original draft of the script [and] I was rushing up with copies of Giger’s work. Ridley saw Giger’s stuff he was snowed. He said, ‘This is it!’” Scott called up Fox and explained that he would not do the film if Giger was not hired as the creature designer. His threat worked, and Giger was hired. Later, producer David Giler would tell Cinefantastique, “[Alien’s] a richly textured film, thanks to HR Giger’s work.” Dan O’Bannon agreed: “Only because Ridley was hired on was Giger hired. He took a liking to Giger’s work. Without Giger, I don’t think we would have had much of a movie.”

The direction for the design of Alien was also indicated by Ridley Scott to Giger, he told Giger the Alien should look like the Necronom V painting (thanks, BigDave) below:

Before Ridley Scott was involved, the Alien looked like in Dan O'Bannon's

and Ron Cobb's visions:

It worths a mention that Ridley Scott chose Bolaji Badejo to be the man in the Alien suit (Strange Shapes):

"While Ridley was trying to find his Alien performer, Roger Dicken was skeptical that one could be found, telling Cinefex, “I went to about three meetings in London and watched these characters rolling around on the floor and quite frankly, I thought it was a bit Mickey Mouse. I mean, it was obvious to me that none of this was going to work, but I had to just sit around wasting time while everybody else figured it out. I sat through a few more meetings while they ran through football players and wrestlers and tall men. Then, for a while, they thought they’d use an ordinary-sized guy so there wouldn’t be any problems with stunts and all. At that point, I even offered to be the monster myself. I figured if I was going to make the suit, I might as well be in it.”

The saving grace was a trip to the pub. “We started with a stunt man who was quite thin,” said Scott, “but in the rubber suit he looked like the Michelin Man. So my casting director [Peter Archer] said, ‘I’ve seen a guy in a pub in Soho who is about seven feet tall, has a tiny head and a tiny skinny body.’ So he brought Bolaji Badejo to the office … I said, ‘Do you want to be in movies?’ and he said, ‘Sure’. And he became the Alien.”

“As soon as I walked in,” Bolaji told Cinefantastique, “Ridley Scott knew he’d found the right person.” Prior to filming, Badejo was placed on the Nostromo set with a mock-up Alien head and roamed the corridors on film, slithering, pausing, turning, kneeling, and prowling through the corridors to nail an appropriate system of movement for the beast.

“It’s very difficult for an actor to relate to what is, essentially, a beast. They know what it is, and they know there’s a man inside the suit, and they know the odds are they’ll never have to experience anything like it in their real lives … I think you’d probably die before the thing touched you anyway. I mean, you’d have a heart attack, right? You’d turn and see it and last about four seconds before you had a coronary, okay? So with Brett’s death, and subsequent run-ins with the Alien, it was always done with the ultimate feeling of a heart attack. The rush of a heart attack, even if the thing didn’t ever touch them.”~ Ridley Scott, Fantastic Films, 1979.

Then we come to the design for the Space Jockey, after the two variants proposed by Ron Cobb

and Moebius:

"None of these concepts were taken too seriously by Ridley Scott, who commissioned HR Giger to design the Space Jockey, using one of Giger’s Necronomicon paintings as a launching pad for the final creature" (Strange Shapes):

Here is the testimony of the creature master himself: “From the script I knew he was huge and had a hole in his chest, but that was all. Ridley suggested another one of my Necronom creatures as a guide. They don’t look much alike now, but it was a starting point; and the Space Jockey kind of grew up from there in bits and pieces. The creature we finally ended up building is biomechanical to the extent that he has physically grown into, or maybe even out of, his seat – he’s integrated totally into the function he performs.”~ HR Giger, Cinefex, 1979.

And for the derelict, after the ideas of the derelict by Chris Foss:

and Moebius:

"Scott eventually turned to Giger, fresh from designing the Alien, for other interpretations of the Jockey ship.

“What we were looking for here was a totally alien-looking spacecraft,” Scott told Cinefex in 1979. “I didn’t think it would something with a lot of lights on it and stuff like that. I figured it would be like nothing anyone ever imagines; either that, or extraordinarily familiar and slightly archaic looking.”

“Once the Alien was under control,” said Giger, “Ridley asked me if I could design a spaceship not made by human beings. Well how do you do that? I thought maybe it might look organic -something that could grow even, like a plant- but I didn’t know exactly what it should look like. Then early one morning I couldn’t sleep, I got up and started painting and the derelict ship was born in a few hours. It ended up like an aerodynamic bone with little technical stuff all over it, but it wasn’t anything I had planned – it just sort of ran out of my mind and my airbrush.”

Like the other artists, Giger brought his own style to the concepts, and his proved to be the most provocative. His Jockey ship rests atop a landscape of twisted metal and bone. “I wanted it to look planted,” Giger told Famous Monsters, “perhaps in the process of maturing, a mixture of organic and mechanical stuff.”

“Giger’s first drawing was just a knockout,” said Scott. “I took one look at it and said, ‘That’s it.’ Other people couldn’t quite see it though, so I had to keep digging my heels and saying, ‘You wont get a better derelict – don’t screw about with it.’ You know, Giger is a special case, and when something’s that good, you have to recognise it and leave it alone.’

"However, despite Ridley loving the design, some members of the production crew took issue with the derelict’s odd shape. First to object was the film’s writer. “O’Bannon,” Giger wrote in his diary, “who has just flown in from the USA, doesn’t think it’s technical enough. A battle of pros and cons begins. I keep my silence; I know that Scott will win the argument.” Of course, as it turns out, he did."

I stumbled upon Strange Shapes years ago by accident on a thread like some newer folks might do now. It is the gold standard of sorts to me for both the casual and hard core.

What really got my attention was when they talked about the whole egg silo/Derelict and cost vs time aspect- and what we eventually saw. That was a fascinating read and has sparked endless debate here. BigDave and other members was/is a heavy hitter on explaining things mentioned on that site. No one is 100% correct since things have not been officially explained, but the theories and discussions are what really keep this forum going.

Strange Shapes is the place to check out for in depth history and interviews with interesting art work.

Not many people know that the facehugger from the film was not designed by Giger, but by O'Bannon, following Ridley Scott's suggestions to combine elements from various works from Giger's Necronom. The early facehugger designs by Giger are those featured in the mural from Prometheus:

“There was a big meeting,” O’Bannon told Cinefex in 1979, “and everybody was talking at the same time and trying to tell Dicken what the hell it should look like (the facehugger). Finally, Ridley pulled out Giger’s book and said: ‘Look, I want these fingers here on this page and I want that over there for the back, and then I want the tail from this other page.’ And Dicken was just confused. So I asked Ridley if I could take a try at it, and he said, ‘Go ahead.’ So I went over to the art department with Dicken and we took a drafting table and a huge piece of paper and some pencils. I drew two heads on the paper, and then I opened up Giger’s book and put it down in front of us.”

“‘All right,’ I said. ‘Ridley said he wanted part of this body, right?’ And I sketched it out. ‘And he liked these fingers.’ So I added the fingers. ‘And he wanted this tail.’ Well, while we were doing this, Giger came in –his plane had arrived from Switzerland- and he had some new designs for the facehugger. And they were very similar to what we were putting together on the drawing board – not identical, but similar. His had an eye on the back, and the shape of it was much more like the palm of a hand. I looked at them and I said, ‘Oh, that’s good.’ Then Giger looked at the thing I was sketching with Dicken, and he said, ‘No, that’s better, that’s much better.’ I was really flattered. So I said, ‘Then I should continue with it?’ And he said, ‘Oh, yes.’ So we went on.”

Facehugger profile. Note the cyclopean eye. Image copyright HR Giger.

O’Bannon continues: “When it came to trying to figure out what kind of a skeletal understructure the thing would need so the fingers could hook up, I got Ron Cobb over and he scrawled out his ideas – which, as usual, were excellent. Then I cleaned the whole thing up a little and did it in ink –exact size- and that’s what we went with.”

The facehugger, like the film at large, was the rare successful product of a melting pot approach to design. “I was really pleased,” said O’Bannon, “because I had kind of eclectically constructed the facehugger out of the things that Ridley wanted and the things that Giger wanted, and some good ideas from Cobb and from Dicken. Then we put the thing through a blueprint machine, got Ridley to okay it, and Roger went off and built it.”

No passing fancy for Strange Shapes, I just tried to put together some facts that made Alien as it is and especially that Ridley Scott played a decisive role in it. Because I see people tend to forget that.

Strange Shapes is there, I put the links in the posts for those who want to read more about the franchise from Alien to Prometheus.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Not to diminish Strange Shapes' contribution to the Alien fandom but any newer fans should also check out the Weyland-Yutani Archives, a similar blog created by Scified's very own Xeno_Alpha_07. Hosted here on Scified the W-Y Archives were originally hosted on Blogger for many years.

Another valuable resource for Alien fans is the Alien Universe Timeline created by Scott Middlebrook, AKA Scified member S.M. Other Alien lore websites that fans may also find of interest are The Nostromo Files, Alien Universe (which has replaced the cool MUTHUR interface that was at Alienmovies.com), and of course the guys over at AVP Galaxy. Of course, there are many other Alien resources out there but these together with Strange Shapes are the ones worth mentioning, IMO.

dk there were different links to different pages with different content and because I extracted only the content about Ridley Scott I thought it was important for those interested to have the link and read the page in full.

Producers... well, you know. They are ordinary people. Ridley, O'Bannon and Giger - visionaries, they are people of the future. Maybe Disney will turn off Giler from this universe, and will be used peoples who shares vision of the visionaries. And we will finally see truly alien worlds.

There is no denying that Ridley Scott was instrumental in helping shape 1979's Alien into the movie it became, but since he returned with his series of prequel movies he has staked ownership on the entire franchise, ownership he cannot claim IMO.

Blogs like Strange Shapes and other online resources help catalog the 40+ years of interviews and behind-the-scenes information that help fans appreciate the movies that little bit more, but said information, and I mean no offense by this (I have such a blog of my own linked in my signature), is for the most part merely a collection of interviews, most of which, as interviews tend to be, are diplomatically and politically (in terms of promoting the movie) phrased. What you will not find in these interviews is what wasn't said publically, although with the history of Alien and it's sequels certain truths have been deduced, such as Giler's constant interference, O'Bannon and Fincher's mistreatment by the aforementioned, and Scott and Camerons frustration towards Giler.

Giler hate aside, and getting back to Scott, Ridley was key to the first movie, but his contributions and practices were not all paved with gold...

# Allegedly Scott was shy and reclusive on set and gave very little in way of direction. This may have been due to inexperience with Alien being his second ever movie. But in his wake Cameron (Aliens was his second movie) and Fincher (Alien 3 was his directorial debut) reportedly showed much more authority on set.

# For the Space Jockey scene Scott famously used children in smaller versions of the principal actor's suits, with the intention of making the set look twice as large. Yet in all subsequent shots, the principal actors are used on the same set creating a conflicting scale. Some might call this nitpicking, but imagine such an error of scale appearing in a modern movie such as The Lord of the Rings. And then, of course, there is the shot of the Aliens tail raising provocatively between Lambert's legs just before it kills her, and has led many to believe it also violated her. But those aren't Lambert's legs - the shot was taken from Brett's death scene earlier in the movie.

# Scott was far from the first choice for the role. Other, higher profile directors at the time turned the movie down. When Scott was hired Fox were literally scraping the barrel, and Giler clearly believed Scott would sway the production in his favor, Which thankfully Scott did not. Not being a horror movie director, as he proved with Hannibal, Scott was ill-suited for the job, and a more established horror director may have produced a better movie, but alas we will never know now. In modern context imagine Paul Feig making a Terminator movie (*shudder*)

# Yes Scott demanded Giger be brought on board, and that O'Bannon's script idea of an actual Alien be used, but both of these, and likely many more aspects of the key decisions while being ticked off by Scott were raised and championed by O'Bannon, who was literally fighting against Giler to have his vision of Alien be made, as opposed to Giler's needless rewrite.

# Not all of Scott's ideas were "inspired". There is, of course, the infamous mention that Scott wanted the Alien to kill Ripley and mimic her voice in the movies closing scene. Another bad idea was Scott's suggestions for some of the Aliens movements, such as the crab walk toward Lambert (see below) which was thankfully left on the cutting room floor, as well as the needlessly exploitative casting scenes depicting Dallas and Ripley as lovers.

After directing Alien, and briefly working on a sequel Scott abandoned the franchise for 33 years. And while devout fans will always view the first movie through rose-tinted spectacles, it was Cameron's sequel in 1986 that propelled the franchise into popularity. I am not denying that Alien was influential, but Aliens was the movie that for many started it all - the comics, the games, the toys. And while some fans berate Camerons Queen, it was this aspect of the Alien that the sequels and the crossovers continued.

But back to Scott.

After 33 years, and a string of good and bad movies he returned to the Alien franchise with rapturous applause and delivered Prometheus. Yes, Prometheus expanded the mythology and was a visual masterpiece, but together with Alien: Covenant lets chronicle what Scott has, of recent contributed to the Alien franchise...

# It was Scott that hired Damon Lindelof to add the "mystery-box" elements to Prometheus. Lindelof is now virtually unemployable.

# For all intents and purposes Scott has retconned the Space Jockey into a bald jock in a suit.

# The Alien is, according to Scott, created by David; a synthetic created by mankind.

# The black goo, shown in Prometheus to infect victims with Xenomorph traits, and the key to David creating his perfect organism, is also shown in Covenant to be a more "generic" bioweapon when unleashed on the Engineer city.

# Rather than deliver what could have been an Alien 2001, Scott and Fox listened to YouTube videos such as the Prometheus HISHE, rather than the fans, and delivered possibly the worst Alien movie to date.

# Scott has repeatedly said that the beast is cooked. And in its place, because his performance in Prometheus was praised, Scott focused more on David than on the Alien, even breaking the cardinal rule of having the creature in full view in daylight (even AVPR avoid breaking that rule).

# The characterization, editing choices and chosen narrative directions taken in the Alien prequels have divided the fanbase.

# Despite whatever arguments one may have against his proposal, Neill Blomkamp's movie generated enough interest among the fandom for Fox to consider it. Early reports suggested that the movie would enter production after Covenants release, with Scott attached as executive producer. However, as Covenants release drew closer Scott proclaimed that the next movie, his third prequel would enter production immediately thereafter and that Blomkamp's movie had been shelved. Scott's movie was rumored to be titled Alien: Awakening, which was formerly the title of Blomkamp's proposed movie. More recently, despite that both James Cameron and Sigourney Weaver have stated that they loved Blomkamp's script, Scott has said that Blomkamp only supplied a short treatment/outline.

# Covenant performed so poorly compared to Prometheus and received such a backlash from fans that Fox put the brakes on Scott's Alien: Awakening, with Stacey Snider shooting down Scott's plans to produce an AI centric war of the worlds, stating that the story of any such sequel to Covenant was not certain.

In short, while Scott may have played a key role in finishing the production of Alien, it was Dan O'Bannon that was the driving force throughout - without O'Bannon none of any of this would have happened. But if one is to praise Scott for his achievements, one should also take into account the damage he has reaped on the franchise and the fandom. Pre-Prometheus I, as we all, heralded Scott's return, but post-Covenant I'm wishing he had not bothered.

I believe Giler's twist to the story, introducing an android and the evil Company, made the film better, strengthened O'Bannon's initial version, which would have probably felt a bit dated these days without the conspiracy and would have limited the potential for the sequels.

All in all, my take is Alien was made in one of those crucial moments when everything that happens adds to the success of the project. Everyone's contribution pushed the story forward.

Another example I can think of, and being a Ridley Scott dedicated topic, is Gladiator.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

That crab walk movement of the Alien was probably connected to Lambert's death, that was supposed to be different, Lambert was to hide into one of those lockers that Jonesy came out of and die of fright. But that got changed, as it got changed in every script before, and Veronica Cartwright found about how her character died only when she saw the film. Those are indeed Brett's legs with the Alien tail in that scene, but how many people realized it unless they read about it somewhere? Isn't that brilliant?

There are more shots with Bolaji Badejo practicing with the suit on, to nail an appropriate system of movement for the beast, I suppose it was not an easy task to be in the shoes of a xenomorph, but in the film he did a great job (deleted scenes don't matter too much):

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Gavin regarding that Blomkamp proposed movie, yes, I'd like to have that movie made, because it seems it is the only way to stop the gossip of what a lovely movie it would have been and how arrogant was Ridley Scott to shelve it.

I don't expect it to be much better than The Predator,, that was also highly praised before it was released, but I am not a fan of Aliens either, so not among the target audience for Fox/Disney if they prefer to invest in another dead end popcorn flick. In Disneyland, Orlando.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Ridley Scott said the beast is cooked because it WAS COOKED by the two sequels to Alien: deep fried/grilled in Aliens and stuffed/boiled/bloated in Resurrection (first time when aliens are showed in full light and swimming).

The queen was very popular I suppose, because it laid eggs, a lot of eggs so a lot of aliens good for a shooting spree. Didn't those sequels have a lot of shootings? Oh, yes!

(Because I remembered the death of Newborn, Ridley Scott mentioned he wanted a similar death for Lambert, but in 1979 there was no CGI)

The queen in Alien3 was force-fed to David Fincher by the producers, in the director cut it is not even seen, nothing bursts out of Ripley's chest. So the last queen was supposed to be dead and gone from the franchise. With Ripley, with Newt, with Hicks. But the fans were so outraged, like they were after Prometheus, like they are after Alien Covenant.

For me the true and only sequel to Alien is Alien3. I think I outraged some more fans.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

About the film 'Alien' -1979, he is the director, therefore, the film is his recorded vision.

A film director is a person who directs the making of a film. A film director controls a film's artistic and dramatic aspects and visualizes the screenplay (or script) while guiding the technical crew and actors in the fulfilment of that vision. The director has a key role in choosing the cast members, production design, and the creative aspects of filmmaking.

The film director gives direction to the cast and crew and creates an overall vision through which a film eventually becomes realized, or noticed. Directors need to be able to mediate differences in creative visions and stay within the boundaries of the film's budget.

I believe Giler's twist to the story, introducing an android and the evil Company, made the film better

Completely agree with this. But it was literally ONE good thing form Giler. In all other levels he ruined franchise. Alien3 for example. You may not agree, but ask Fincher - he refused the film, because it's a studio project. He also say: give me money and I will shoot another Alien 3.

Well i think we have to thank Ridley Scott for his ability to get FOX to take on board some of the ideas he felt was best to go, and so he was able to get FOX to use more of O'Bannons Idea, and also to use HR Giger.

If they went with Hill and Giler and IF they also tampered with the Life-Cycle (that O'Bannon came up with) and we never had HR Giger.. Then ALIEN would have just been another 70's B Sci-Fi MOVIE!

HR Gigers Concepts/Aesthetic and O'Bannons main Story are WHAT gave us the ALIEN we had, i think we should remember however that Ridley Scotts influence is what managed to get O'Bannon and HR Gigers contributions included in the Movie.

I DONT think that Cameron's ALIENS is to thank for what we got and the Prequels... IF he never made ALIENS then eventually we would have got a ALIEN 2 or a ALIEN Prequel. I will say i can understand that Cameron's ALIENS did elevate the Franchise and made it the LaunchPlatform for countless Sequels and Novels and Games etc etc.

Without his ALIENS... there would have been sequels... they may have been BETTER... they may have been WORSE! We can only Speculate on that.... But what is for CERTAIN is the Action Packed ALIENS was a hit, and for a Majority of people who see a Xenomorph or asked about the Franchise its Cameron's Addition that most people would associate with the Franchise.

The popularity of that Movie and what it brought to the Table is what has been the Spring Board to all the $$$$ that FOX had made from the Franchise over the years.

I am sure thats what LETO meant... as in IF we never had ALIENS, we could (or not) have had a ALIEN 2 that could have been In-superior and maybe Rubbish in which case the Franchise would NOT be at the Level is is today as far as Brand Recognition.

I will add more to this debate tomorrow..

In context of RS and Blomkamp... i would say Blomkamp's Leak of his Alien 5, caused problems for RS and what he intended for the Prequels.. i am not sure we can assume Blomkamp did this to deliberately De-Rail the Prequels... he certainly did want to Gauge/Test the Fanbase because he felt the Franchise NEEDED a more ALIENY movie than what the Prequels were giving.

I think RS had no problem with ALIEN 5 he just wanted to get his Next Prequel done First, so as that ALIEN 5 does-not steal its THUNDER or tread on its Toes... He was protecting his investment of ideas into the Prequels.

IF we had ALIEN 5 first and it BOMBED! then FOX would maybe have Concerns about continuing the Franchise, they would then be like, DO WE wait before Ridley Scott can do his Prequels... or risk making the Prometheus 2NOW in light of how Poor ALIEN 5 had done?

IF we had ALIEN 5 become a HIT then maybe FOX would want to ROLL OUT a Alien 6 etc... which would delay the Time for WHEN it would be that RS can complete his Prequels.

Ridley Scott was having Problems with his Prometheus 2 they just could not settle on a STORY... Blomkamp shows his Alien 5 off, this excited more Fans... FOX then gave Alien 5 the Green Light, RS became Producer and no doubt he would have Sat Downwith FOX and talked about Alien 5 then Alien 5 got put on ICE while RS brought in more Writers to Pen what Evolved into a more ALIENY Sequel with Xenomorphs that was Alien Covenant!

HAD we seen Alien Covenant become a HIT both Financially and Critically then i think FOX would have gone on to maybe work on Alien 5 and Alien Covenant 2.

I know some may not like this.... but IMO i do think the Reveal of Blomkamp's Alien 5, the Praising of it by Miss Weaver is in part to Blame for the direction we are now in...

Had BlomkampNOT leaked his ideas... i think Prometheus2 would have been different... but there would have been NO Guarantee that Prometheus 2 would have been Done/Released in 2017 as they was having a Problematic Time getting the RIGHT kind of PLOT...

So its not a case of WHEN he should have leaked it, as in when does he WAIT? and from his POV... why not release a idea, if he feels its what Fans would want... he certainly would not have been Wrong for the Most Part!

Well i think we have to thank Ridley Scott for his ability to get FOX to take on board some of the ideas he felt was best to go, and so he was able to get FOX to use more of O'Bannons Idea, and also to use HR Giger.

If they went with Hill and Giler and IF they also tampered with the Life-Cycle (that O'Bannon came up with) and we never had HR Giger.. Then ALIEN would have just been another 70's B Sci-Fi MOVIE!

HR Gigers Concepts/Aesthetic and O'Bannons main Story are WHAT gave us the ALIEN we had, i think we should remember however that Ridley Scotts influence is what managed to get O'Bannon and HR Gigers contributions included in the Movie.

I DONT think that Cameron's ALIENS is to thank for what we got and the Prequels... IF he never made ALIENS then eventually we would have got a ALIEN 2 or a ALIEN Prequel. I will say i can understand that Cameron's ALIENS did elevate the Franchise and made it the LaunchPlatform for countless Sequels and Novels and Games etc etc.

Without his ALIENS... there would have been sequels... they may have been BETTER... they may have been WORSE! We can only Speculate on that.... But what is for CERTAIN is the Action Packed ALIENS was a hit, and for a Majority of people who see a Xenomorph or asked about the Franchise its Cameron's Addition that most people would associate with the Franchise.

The popularity of that Movie and what it brought to the Table is what has been the Spring Board to all the $$$$ that FOX had made from the Franchise over the years.

I am sure thats what LETO meant... as in IF we never had ALIENS, we could (or not) have had a ALIEN 2 that could have been In-superior and maybe Rubbish in which case the Franchise would NOT be at the Level is is today as far as Brand Recognition.

I will add more to this debate tomorrow..

In context of RS and Blomkamp... i would say Blomkamp's Leak of his Alien 5, caused problems for RS and what he intended for the Prequels.. i am not sure we can assume Blomkamp did this to deliberately De-Rail the Prequels... he certainly did want to Gauge/Test the Fanbase because he felt the Franchise NEEDED a more ALIENY movie than what the Prequels were giving.

I think RS had no problem with ALIEN 5 he just wanted to get his Next Prequel done First, so as that ALIEN 5 does-not steal its THUNDER or tread on its Toes... He was protecting his investment of ideas into the Prequels.

IF we had ALIEN 5 first and it BOMBED! then FOX would maybe have Concerns about continuing the Franchise, they would then be like, DO WE wait before Ridley Scott can do his Prequels... or risk making the Prometheus 2NOW in light of how Poor ALIEN 5 had done?

IF we had ALIEN 5 become a HIT then maybe FOX would want to ROLL OUT a Alien 6 etc... which would delay the Time for WHEN it would be that RS can complete his Prequels.

Ridley Scott was having Problems with his Prometheus 2 they just could not settle on a STORY... Blomkamp shows his Alien 5 off, this excited more Fans... FOX then gave Alien 5 the Green Light, RS became Producer and no doubt he would have Sat Downwith FOX and talked about Alien 5 then Alien 5 got put on ICE while RS brought in more Writers to Pen what Evolved into a more ALIENY Sequel with Xenomorphs that was Alien Covenant!

HAD we seen Alien Covenant become a HIT both Financially and Critically then i think FOX would have gone on to maybe work on Alien 5 and Alien Covenant 2.

I know some may not like this.... but IMO i do think the Reveal of Blomkamp's Alien 5, the Praising of it by Miss Weaver is in part to Blame for the direction we are now in...

Had BlomkampNOT leaked his ideas... i think Prometheus2 would have been different... but there would have been NO Guarantee that Prometheus 2 would have been Done/Released in 2017 as they was having a Problematic Time getting the RIGHT kind of PLOT...

So its not a case of WHEN he should have leaked it, as in when does he WAIT? and from his POV... why not release a idea, if he feels its what Fans would want... he certainly would not have been Wrong for the Most Part!

The Thing is IF they had Green Lit ALIEN 5 for a say 2018/2019 release and it began Production say 6-12 Months after Ridley Scott did his sequel to Prometheus... the risk for RS is that some fans knowing that Alien 5 (bring the gang back) would be out in a few years.. they may have just NOT had a interest in RS sequel to Prometheus especially if this would not give them the Xenomorph Origins or a Xeno-Fix!

I think for me Dan O'Bannon, Ron Shusett and HR Giger are truly the ones who gave us what we had, others such as Giler and Hill did add some elements but i feel especially without Giger and O'Bannon the Franchise would not have been what it was.

Ridley Scott should be praised for influencing the Studio to go with the things that gave us ALIEN. But then when it comes to the prequels we could argue that he should have FOUGHT for what he was happy with at First..

The Tone Down of Xenomorph Clues, and No similar Monsters was a Mistake, it never had to be fully Alien Engineers, but a bit more of Alien Engineers surely was needed. Alien Covenant? Well i think that really was a disappointing route, but we have to consider the Studio had pressured him to TONE down the Xeno for the First Prequel and then FORCE in the Xeno in the second Prequel.

You sense RS was not a Fan of that Direction with some of his comments like "they want $"£%$£^ Aliens, i will give them $"£%£$^ Aliens" and how he FELT he was ahead of the Curve with Prometheus.

But Ridley Scott still gets a lot of Stick, especially from Cameron Fans, i think some may have felt the Prequels should have been more about the Xenomorph and Queen. And it was like RS Prequels just ignored Aliens to some..

But then Cameron had ignored Alien and its Source Material to a degree also... Space Jockey, Derelict? Nah we dont need that.... those are Eggs and Eggs are Laid and Voila here is the Queen!

This really BUGS some Alien Fans (pun intended) but again i have defended the Queen (nope not the UK one but the Popper Queen lol) in that its a Logical Assumption to explore that Eggs are Laid, because well Eggs are either Laid or Change into Organisms that are usually Birthed.

The XenomorphLife-Cycle from Alien DC was truly Alien, but as it was NOT in the Theatrical and as Ridley Scott was not part of the sequel, then Cameron was free to come up with a Queen, and the Hive Mind/Colony Plot. I know some Aliens fans were concerned at the time of the Prequels that THEY would do something to Discount/Diminish the Queen, but i am not sure thats what happened.

I think that we need to remember the Studio has a lot of say, and also David Giler and Walter Hill also. If Cameron got to make another Alien Movie you have to wonder if they would get involved or would we be able to get Cameron's Discover a Queen, Lays Eggs,Xenomorphs on the Loose, Run and Shoot and Ripley Saves the Day Popcorn Flick!

I think for some this could work, but i am not sure it would work if they continue with this Formula.... you have to add some NEW stuff...

The Prequels attempted to do this, and i think the idea in a ideal world was that the Prequels did something different and explored the Space Jockey/Engineers, and that we could see further ALIEN movies that would bring back the Xenomorph, but FOX just could not commit to making TWO such Movies at the same time.

I think we need to bare in mind Studio Influence that lead to Lindeloff and the Remove the Xenomorph Route, and also Problems with the HR Giger Estate that may have mean less of that Aesthetic.

Visuals are were RS excels but he does suffer from some OVERSIGHTS... which indeed had led to some inconsistencies, such as the Engineers Size... which they should have used Special Effects like the LOTR/Hobbit.

I think RS gets a lot of blame for Alien Covenant... it was a wasted opportunity as far as Engineers, a not wise choice with the David Creates the Xenomorph.... but you could tell that Ridley Scott wanted to NOT cover the Xenomorph and he had intended to cover the Engineers more... but Studio Pressure and we got Alien Covenant.

I do wonder how much of a Influence RS will have on the Franchise from now on...

Maybe Disney should allow for Blomkamps bring the Gang Back and see what does it really offer different than what we have seen in Aliens/Alien Resurrection?

I think a ALIEN movie has potential... i just dont think it has to center just around the Queen and also NO bring the Gang Back... they are Dead!

But as its Easter Period... who knows maybe they can be Resurrected and Queens laying Chocolate Eggs (joke)

Dont get me wrong though, i should not be taken as ALIENS or Cameron Bashing! There is a Market for the more Action Packed Xeno-Flick, certainly also is the Formula that is used in a Majority of the Games/Comics and a Formula that had been a Great Marketing and Merchandise Asset to FOX.

I do look at it as Ridley Scott does and that is the Formula has been repeated a lot, the Games, Comics seem to be very similar to what say a Aliens and Alien Resurrection had done, and the Xenomorph via Games and Comics and how it became in Alien Resurection and AVP Movies, was something that just was NOT as Scary or Interesting as it had been Overdone!

You needed to change it a bit, introduce something Fresh, but that really is difficult, the Same Queen, Eggs, FaceHuger, Chest Buster, Xenomorph.. Run, and Shoot, Greedy/Selfish Company wants Organism and a Ripley comes to save the day (other Hero's/Heroins in Comics), it gets Repetitive for some, but i understand some would love to have a repeat of a Aliens over and over and have NO problems...

Other ways you can change the Franchise, would be introduce New Versions and Hybrids, but some Purest are NOT fans of that.

Or you can make the Xenomorph something much more Special and Intelligent, but the Franchise so FAR has not indicated that these Xenomorphs will go around and Create Technology they can use to Fly Around.. they seem to basically be More Alieny kind of Bee Hive!

This is why RS with the Prequels wanted to explore something NEW and have the Prequel Series go off and NOT be about the Xenomorph but expand something NEW with the Engineers/Space Jockey, while then leaving the Alien Franchise Free to make more Comics, Books and maybe Movies that would be about the Xenomorph (But please NO Ripley, i dont think she has to be part of every movie).

That was the PLAN.... Prequels = Something New for Alien Fans and Sci-Fi Fans.. Original Franchise = Platform to give Alien Fans Movies and Games and Comics about Queens and Eggs, but Ultimately Xenomorphs. Some of those Fans were just NOT happy with the Prequels, and some felt they SHOULD be about the Xenomorph as the Main Element.... i think the Engineers and who created them is what it should be about...

But what a Mess we are in NOW with the Plot of Alien Covenant, some elements interesting but a Distraction as by Virtue of a ALIEN Prefix, it is going to be expected to be about Xenomorphs and getting to when those Eggs get onto the Derelict.

Bottom Line with them is when you First Saw the Derelict and Space Jockey Scene..... when you look at those Planet 4 Engineers and their City (not including their Ships) and then the Reveal a Weyland Created Robot had created the Xenomorph....

BOTH of these are just NOT as ALIEN as the Space Jockey Scene, and Eggs in ALIEN seemed to Allure us towards.

Do you really don't understand? Prometheus and Alien Covenant good films. Many people and "aliens fans" love this films. They love Engineers, Black goo and Neomorphs. Nobody wants a Queen or something like that in Prometheus.

It's all about quality of performance! Alien and Aliens have the best quality. You don't need to buy Aliens with a Queen, but you should be honest. Alien and Aliens - gold standard. You will be extremely surprised, whenyou find out that many fans don't have obsessions about Queen, Ripley and Colonial Marines. Reason why people love Alien and Aliens - high quality.

1. How did they keep those two facehuggers alive in the big glass jars from Hadley's Hope? How did they surgically remove them and how come they did not die? If there was time to perform the surgery, victims died anyway, the facehuggers had time to implant the eggs and, as we all know, after that any facehugger dies happily.

2. How was Ripley holding on on one hand, the airlock open, queen attached to her leg until, luckily, her shoe got lost toghether with the queen?

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Some Fans like Alien and Alien 3, and dont like Camerons Queen and Bugs! Some fans do, and prefer this.

Some Fans like Prometheus... but then some Fans find disappointments in the direction, and i dont mean just limited to Dumb Characters. I think these recent discussions HIGHLIGHT this..

I think its hard to Please Everyone..... not everyone is going to accept that 7ft Bald Humans are the Space Jockey, not everyone is going to accept David was the Instigator and Creator of the Xenomorph

I would ASSUME.... most Fans would feel that the Planet 4 Engineers and their City is steering the Space Jockey away from what made it so ALIEN in the First Movie... I am sure that Most Fans would feel that having a Synthetic David Create the Xenomorph in a Process some 19-29 Years before the Events of Alien, as being Totally NOT what we expect when we look at ALIEN and also diminishes the Alien Origins of what we assumed the Xenomorph was.

So when i look at what some Fans like or dont, it does-not have to apply to Criticism of Prometheus, but debates on sites like this. Some Fans have different interpretations and wishes for how Prometheus would connect to ALIEN, even though it did-not give much connection.

In Hindsight... i think had Prometheus had more clues (Fifield was more a Hybrid with Acid Blood) we spent more time on the Mural and Fresco and some passing comment to give us a Clue, such as Davids sometimes to create comment, and Dr Shaws Outbreak Comments.

Having the Hammerpede shown to have Small Eggs after one is SHOT... and then seeing Milburn Chest Burst or Back Burst or whatever a Organism like the Neomorph, maybe this gets killed, maybe it escapes and is encountered a bit after and killed.

A closer look at the other Engineer Cryo-Pods...

Then these changes would have surely improved the Movie, but still Flaws in Characters would have remained.. if these had also been improved then Prometheus could have been much better... and ALLOWED the Door to Alien to be CLOSED, and allowed a Prometheus 2 to go some place FAR FAR away and NOT be about the Xenomorph.

And NOT have have to give us Alien Covenant... which must be a NIGHTMARE for most Fans they hope they can wake up from.

My Re-write of Prometheus was as i had discussed above, i also improved some of the Dumb Scenes.. but my Prometheus Edit would have been a 2hr 40 Min Movie! So no good for the Theater and we would have been back at Square ONE with Cuts/Edits.

But such a direction with some more Alien Monster Scenes, some more clues... would have allowed Prometheus 2 to open a different Tangent of a Franchise.

They could have then apleased some Fans who may have wanted more clues and similar Monsters.. at least long enough to then give them another ALIEN movie after Prometheus 2.

Which could have been another Prequel route, a mission to LV-223 which could have then been more ALIENY and Action Packed, and given more or definitive Answers to LV-426

I certainly agree that NOT every movie needs a Queen, some Fans may want them, but i am sure MOST Fans would expect a ALIEN movie to at least have something that is related to the Xenomorph.

So if Alien Covenant had NO Xenomorphs only Neomorphs i dont think most fans would be so upset, some would still want some ideas to the ORIGINS of the Xenomorph by Virtue of a Prequel should maybe cover and conclude this... but not everyone would be HELL bent on needed a Origin Spoon Fed.

A addition of David Evolving the Neomorph to something similar to the Xenomorph but different (more so than the Proto-Morph) or by Evolving the Neomorph to be a Hybrid that is more Neomorph than Xenomorph but have them come from Eggs, these could allow Fans to Ponder if SIMILAR was done in the past to Create the Eggs.

Likewise another Prequel where a Mission goes to LV-223 and either we have similar to Prometheus (infections) but we see more of a End Product... or they come across the Deacon and have it Infect Humans with something a bit different, rather than show Deacon laying Eggs.

Then have like Deacon like Monsters vs Humans... then i think this too would please Fans.... and not everyone would be like i wanna see Queens.. we dont need them in the traditional sense.

It remains that SOME Fans expected more clues to LV-426, and not Necessarily needing to see Traditional Xenomorphs or a Queen... A Return to LV-223 could give something different but then provide more clues to LV-426 (if we ignore what Alien Covenant was doing with David).

PS!

I am Sorry if i use Bold to highlight some points and CAPS these are intended to Highlight things, as otherwise people would get LOST among my word after word and not pick out certain Important points.

Its not intended to come across as FORCING my views and opinions and i am Sorry if it comes across as such!

Well he did a great job at directing it and to get Giger there, at least he was a part that got Giger into it but this is not to say that he alone is behind the success of Alien. Your (daliens) post makes it look like Scott was behind most but to me it is a team-work so I think that you over-estimate Scott’s contribution.

We also need to mention Giger, Cobb, and O’Bannon I think those have the most influence on it. They are some of those that made Alien great so I do not think that it is right to make it look like someone is more important than the other since it is about team-work.

I will second what Gavin said, he was a part that made Alien great but now he acts like it is all about him (to quote Gavin “with his series of prequel movies he has staked ownership on the entire franchise, ownership he cannot claim IMO.”) and while also coming up with really crappy ideas story-wise. Some things are having David responsible for the Xeno, favoring a mad robot before the engineers and the monster.

“Fox put the brakes on Scott's Alien: Awakening, with Stacey Snider shooting down Scott's plans to produce an AI-centric war of the worlds...”

If that is the case that Fox stopped it then it was a good choice. I would refuse to watch a movie about a mad robot, screw that.

The Engineers are interesting, I would rather watch a movie about that than a movie about Xenos and androids.

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