Posted
by
samzenpuson Thursday September 09, 2010 @07:57AM
from the what-took-so-long dept.

mspohr writes "Just hours after Apple released iOS 4.1 to great fanfare, hardware hackers found a way to jailbreak devices that run the new operating system. More surprising still, there doesn't appear to be anything Steve Jobs can do to stop them in the near future. The exploit in the boot ROM of iOS devices was first announced by iPhone Dev-Team member pod2g. It was soon confirmed by other hackers, who said that because the exploit targets such a low-level part of the operating system, Apple won't be able to stop jailbreakers without making significant hardware changes."

If you have a system that people can get at and modify, then there is no such thing as a secure system. This idea that you can make an OS that can't be exploited is BS. Certainly things can be done to make it harder, but you can't make it impossible.

You discover that in the event you do need something, like say a database server, that is "exploit free" that to get it you have to cope with a lot of restrictions. The company that sells it to you, someone like IBM, will be providing the hardware, OS, software,

It's mathematically impossible to make a device completely safe from someone who has complete physical control over it. You can encrypt this and that all you like, but it's literally only a matter of time before someone applies enough computing power and breaks said rights-management. Boot loaders can be heavily obfuscated against reverse engineering, but since the device has to actually boot and work at some point, there's a key to the proverbial lock in that haystack somewhere. I hope I'm making sense, co

It is also mathematically impossible to make a 100% secure symmetric crypto algorithm if the key is shorter than the data being enciphered. However, we can make something that won't be broken even after the universe dies a heat death.

Same with devices. Look at the PS3. It took 5 years for any notable breaks to happen, and as time goes on, it will become harder and harder because it will be easier to embed the critical startup keys in layers of epoxy and tamper-resistant circuitry that can't be dealt with

The point you miss is that it existing. These devices are not new and apple have plenty of unix experience these days. Their apps are broken and they're running at the wrong user level. They basically have a bad a reputation as MS for securing their devices.

I generally agree with this sentiment. Typically, locked down and secure are not always the same, but as Apple's style seems to revolve around things being locked down where user and developer freedoms are concerned, it would seem quite natural that they would also lock down the way apps and the OS behave as well. The fact that Mac OS X demonstrably doesn't follow this pattern religiously would seem to indicate that they don't follow their own ideals. Unixes have tremendous capacity for being locked down and secured. It says something "not good" when they fail to take advantage of those features and functions... it's almost as if they don't know what they are doing or don't care to do it right if they do. I would expect more from their highly paid and decorated experts.

People are led to believe they should expect more from Apple; higher standards of quality. This doesn't appear to be bearing out.

With all this Apple-negative said, I still believe that if they got more serious about it, they could probably accomplish what they set out to do -- they just have to want to do it.

In the (fourish) year history of the iPhone there have been two (real) remote exploits, both of which were used for jailbreaking and apparently for nothing else, and a parade of local exploits. The first remote exploit took a while to fix, the second was fixed pretty fast.

The remote ones are an advantage to an attacker. The local ones are an advantage to the owner.

Apple's done a pretty good job of keeping the platform secure from attackers. They've probably done too good a job of keeping it secure from t

Absolute fantasy! Apple is unprepared for security and the way the iPad has been cobbled together is proof of this. Their software hasn't been targeted until now and the exploitation of Apple products _are_ becoming more commonplace.

You cant compare it to how Windows was back in the day or any notions like that because Apple is currently going through what Microsoft was unprepared for back then but with a more sophisticated mindset and strategy (crackers / cyber-criminals are smarter these days). Apple based itself on UNIX around the time the internet became common in the household as a result saved them a fair amount of grief but hardly places it as a more secure product in todays world.

The lack of Apples popularity had always kept them in niche marketplaces until now but the iPhone now makes them commonplace and popular enough to mean money for blackmarket hacking. This doesn't mean its more secure its totally the opposite. It means it's less secure because it hasn't been targeted until now. In fact I'd spout there are just as many exploits in the wild for iOS and MacOS as there is for Windows Vista in present day.

For companies a high patch rate and focus on security means a hampering of innovation because development resources becomes focused on fixing problems rather than creating new features. Truthfully, the iPad is a product of that hampering, from my experience its like using a half built house with its scaffolding still attached too it and for the iPhone 4 even the sales people at the phone store cant find feature lists convincing enough to get me to upgrade from a 3GS to a 4. The question "why should i upgrade?" doesn't get answered with a solid response.

Did we get any of those iPhone 4 sales through the roof crap this month on/. ? No Thank God!!!

The lack of Apples popularity had always kept them in niche marketplaces until now but the iPhone now makes them commonplace and popular enough to mean money for blackmarket hacking. This doesn't mean its more secure its totally the opposite. It means it's less secure because it hasn't been targeted until now. In fact I'd spout there are just as many exploits in the wild for iOS and MacOS as there is for Windows Vista in present day.

Such as?

Truthfully, the iPad is a product of that hampering, from my experience its like using a half built house with its scaffolding still attached too it and for the iPhone 4 even the sales people at the phone store cant find feature lists convincing enough to get me to upgrade from a 3GS to a 4. The question "why should i upgrade?" doesn't get answered with a solid response.

What about the iPad?

re: sales people -- it's the phone store, the capitalist equivalent of going to the DMV. I still have a 3gs but the reasons to upgrade are obvious -- vastly improved camera and vastly improved screen. That's what matters to me at least...

Adobe's shitty PDF specification that allows embedded fonts to be stored in documents

There's nothing wrong with this. The intent of PDF is to make a document viewable on every platform in the same way and you can't do that without either embedding fonts or re-rendering fonts as outline drawings (which wastes a lot of space, makes text editing and markup impossible, and increases complexity).

It's deceiving to the point of almost lying. You can whine about the finer points of that sentence and how a Mac isn't a PC etc, etc. However we all know that it's been specifically designed to fool those with less knowledge of computers.

It's deceiving to the point of almost lying.No, it really isn't. Only the anti-Mac fascists would say that about that statement. Do you complain as much as the 'Intel-inside' sticker? How many millions of ppl have been fooled into thinking that one sticker makes the system better? Or how about all those 'lowest TCO compared to Linux' studies that MS payed for ten years ago.

No other industry would be able to get away with such "facts".Every industry from cars to diapers is full of these "facts"! Here's s

Yes, it really is. It is a misleading marketing tactic and it's improperly using technological terminology to fool a customer into thinking they're making the superior choice by purchasing an Apple product, when anyone with any real technical knowledge knows these claims are patently false.

* I really tried to avoid a car analogy but I fear slashdot demands it.:)

Ahem, allow me:

Some people like to mix and match, and others just want the default stuff, trusting the chef, so to say.

Imagine it to be like a pizza place. Some restaurants based on this fantastic Italian dish got so much on the menu that you don't need to customize your order (except for an extra hot sauce or two!), and others don't trust the chef to make the correct choices from the great number of delicious toppings available.

The N900 does not have a multitouch screen. I think the screen is also not quite as good quality (in terms of brightness and DPI) as the very latest iPhones, but I could be wrong there. In all other aspects, I believe the specs are equal to or surpass the iPhone.

I've got both an iPhone 3G and a Nokia N900 (and also an iPad). Back in April I switched to the N900 because I liked it and it was open. I switched back around the start of July. The reason was simple enough - the application range for the N900 sucked badly, and the Ovi store is extremely poor.

Even with a fully open platform at their disposal, the application market is sorely lacking and the closed platform wins hands down. If I could have the iPhones application market on the N900s hardware, I would

Remember that iOS also runs on iPods. When I buy a PDA/MP3 player I don't necessarily want it to have a mobile phone built in. I also don't neccessarily want to pay some four hundred bucks for it. Plus there's the demographic of those who used the Back to School offer or bought their iPod second hand or refurbished.

My touch cost me thirty-five bucks (Back to School; I was getting a new MBP and happened across the offer). Unless you can show me a Nokia smartphone for that price I'm going to be content with having to jailbreak it.

But is it as delicious to use as the iPhone? I think I'd rather live in someone else's well-maintained garden than a bitumen courtyard of my own. I'm not really interested in tinkering with my device - I just want it to work.

Goodness. I'm not that much of an old-timer (I got my first, five-digit Slashdot UID in 2001), but is anyone else disturbed by how far Slashdot has evolved from "news for nerds, stuff that matters" and the joy of hacking ugly hardware until it's highly powerful?

Don't give up on Nokia just yet. The MeeGo platform that will appear on their next most powerful smartphones is a fully functional Linux distribution that is certainly superior to Android for hackability.

MeeGo is the renamed version of Maemo, which is what the N900 runs already. It's Linux, X11, a custom window manager and a set of apps designed for mobile devices. Because, unlike Android, it runs X11, most desktop apps will work with just a recompile, although for best results you will want to tweak the UI for small screens.

MeeGo actually inherits more from Moblin (an Intel-led project) than Maemo. There will be a "Maemo compatibility layer" that Nokia will use until it completely shifts development to pure MeeGo, but what we will get from the next Nokia premium smartphone is not simply a renamed Maemo.

1. If it really becomes a problem for steve, he will block it at the hardware level in the next major version, or even in the next minor version.2. I cannot rely on the fact that there will always be a jailbreak available if I lose my phone, due to 1.3. It is only semi-legal. Apple will not like me.4. I loose support.5. Companies cannot be based on these kind of hacks due to 1,2,3,4, so there will never be a large user-base (or it will grow very slowly)6....7. No profit! Due to 5.:)

1. And the problem with that is...? I mean.. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply there.. that hackers should go for higher level hacks first so that maybe in the next generation of the hardware they can still use those hacks? Wouldn't that lofty idea go against your remaining points, though?

2. I'm not sure what part you're relying on when you lose a piece of hardware that is dissimilar from another piece of hardware - even if that hardware is only slightly dissimilar - nor what role a jailbreak plays

3.honestly? you think it's only semi-legal? You do realize it's -your- device, right? and you care that Apple wouldn't like you?

So, is it legal to saw off a shotgun, or to convert a replica gun to be functional? There are laws that govern our behaviour, and sadly the DMCA (and the ECD over here in Europe) [i]might[/i] make this kind of thing illegal, although I think there was a recent pro-jailbreaking ruling in the US that might put colonials in the clear.

1. If it really becomes a problem for steve, he will block it at the hardware level in the next major version, or even in the next minor version.

I've never bothered jailbreaking my iPhone (3GS) so this would actually be really cool if it happened (assuming it's a hardware update that applies to all future iPhones but doesn't affect existing iPhones) - my iPhone which is now nearly 12 months old suddenly becomes much more valuable as the 'classic' hackable model:)

As a former iPhone user who recently switched to Android based phones (not because I disliked the iPhone, mind you - but simply because I disliked AT&T), I've seen a weird "disconnect" between ultimately similar issues with both platforms.The media is constantly harping on the iPhone and its current jailbreak situation. Is firmware X broken? What does the LAW say about that? Is Steve Jobs pissed about it? What happens when firmware X.1 is released? Will jailbreakers skip the minor release and save

It's not news in the Android world because it's not so much a fight. You do see articles on how the Droid X / Droid 2 have locked bootloaders/eFuses, but you also see news on things like CyanogenMod 6 coming out. Everything about jailbreaking is news in the Apple world because it's Not Supposed To Happen or is Hard (for the hackers) To Accomplish.

As an android user - let me enlighten you.The android platform is DESIGNED to be rootable and hackable, the phone made by the android developers - the Nexus 1 comes with rooting just a click away.

There ARE other manufacturers who try to make rooting harder - none of them have made it particularly impossible, I rooted mine in an hour. But you cannot blame this on the platform. It's not Android that made HTC obfuscate their bootloader, that is HTC's fault alone. In apple's case the hardware and software are always from the same source. In android's case it almost never is - so that adds an important distinction.

Finally - nobody roots their systems because we "have to in order to use a feature". We do it because by using thirdparty versions of android we can get certain features sooner, or run newer versions of the OS - or hell just enjoy having a root shell on our phones - some of us have FUN with that.

I rooted my HTC desire to get CyanoGenMod for Froyo 2.2 - about a week before HTC brought out an OTA update for Sense based on it. Didn't bug me much - I had no guarantee of said version coming now or ever, I had no wish to wait for it and I liked being able to upgrade when I wanted to. I also having now used both prefer CyanoGenMod over Sense - it's a stabler UI with less bugs and a cleaner, slicker interface to work with while still being the same essential android in it's core design (of course that part is a subjective judgement but speaking for myself - I prefer it).

Having rooted once - I now control the bootloader with my own recovery version and goldcard which means I can now install any rom code I want. I can swap at any time. I can backup the current rom try something else and restore it if I wanted to...

I like having power over my device. Apple actively tries to stop me getting it. Android actively encourages it and even when a device maker tries to follow the apple approach once broken it's broken for good - and without the associated risks of jailbreaking an iPhone. I'll still get updates, I will still get fixes because many third-parties provide them. I still have the official appmarket working just fine and I know it always will because google makes it freely available so modmakers can provide packages to install it (though they are not allowed to preinstall it inside the mod).

In short - the reason you see such a huge disconnect is because you're comparing apples with oranges. It only looks similar from a distance - in reality the two platforms approach to user restriction couldn't be further removed from each other and rooting an android is a much lesser deal than rooting an iphone.Iphone's are jailbroken to enable power the user should have had the choice to get in the first place.Androids are rooted because hacking devices is FUN.

Well here is a question...Unlike other Holes to jailbreak the iPhone, would this be considered a security problem with the phone in general?If Yes then Apple would probably fix it.If No Apple will not probably fix the hole.

I doubt apple really cares that much about the jail broken phones. Sure apple fixes the problems as it could be part of a greater security risk. But I don't think it is apples best interests to invest money in stopping those jail breakers who have purchased their products, and willingly

If it really becomes a problem for steve, he will block it at the hardware level in the next major version

That won't affect you unless you like buying the same gear over and over. If I already have an iThing, what happens to new iThings won't concern me.

It is only semi-legal. Apple will not like me.

There's no such thing as "semi-legal". If there's no law against it, it's legal. If there is, it's not. Some things really are black and white. And personally, I really don't give a rat's ass if Apple or any othe

Have you considered that Apple is secretly supporting these hacks? If you're to use a phone, Apple wants you to use an iPhone. So they make it possible to jailbreak the phone in order to make it more attractive, and if you choose to do it, they void your warranty so they never have to support you or replace it for any reason. Apple wins all around.

But if you lose #5, then Apple can kiss off about 5-8% of their phones due to those that want the feature and another 10% due to the 'coolness' of it. Once Apple loses that panache, they will not get it back. And they will continue downward.

Don't forget #8: If Apple really wants to declare war on the JB scene, they could easily implement a tattle-tale device or some form of check to see if a phone is JB-ed or not. If so, its ESN gets banned off all networks, device reset, and because of this, it won't be able to be activated. Earlier iPhones could be hacktivated, but the 4 would be pretty much rendered into spare parts by this.

If I was a business who KNEW I'm fighting a world full of hackers I wouldn't fight them... I would help them. Most people wouldn't care, but those that I said "Hey, we've made it easy for you to do stuff... show me what you can do better and I'll pay you for it!

Apple instead wants to completely control how the users use their devices... and that just won't fly in today's world. That's like slapping a bull and kicking him in the balls. He's gonna ram you

DRM. Apple sell devices that play and protect secure DRM'd content. The fact that hacks keep coming out and left reasonably open for local user leads me to believe that Apple in reality don't care so much, but have an obligation to the big content producers to give "best effort" to keep the device secure.

That said.... I've had an iphone 3g, currently have a 3G-S. I jail-broke the 3G, had a look at some of the software on Cydia, didn't really find anything worth shit to me (plenty of novelty apps that

The fact that hacks keep coming out and left reasonably open for local user leads me to believe that Apple in reality don't care so much, but have an obligation to the big content producers to give "best effort" to keep the device secure.

(1) Naive users will find ways to screw things up and come running for help. Some might even forget to turn the device on and still, in a state of apoplexy, come running for help. This is the way things are. (2) Naive users are content if their phone, pc, microwave or whatever, does stuff in a way broadly consistent with what they want it to do and most are completely disinterested in fiddling around with their shiny new gadget in any shape or form. Due to 1. the number of opportunities (freedom to tinker)

Because content providers like to be paid for their products. If you go to one of the app crack web-sites, it's amazing how so many jailbreakers can afford to buy an iPhone, but will then go to some effort to steal 99c from an app developer.

How did this get marked as interesting? It's a basic logical fallacy. Precisely *because* they spent all their money on an iphone, they can no longer afford apps. It's the whole butter or guns argument.

The same response can be levied against one who asks how it is we can go to the moon, yet not cure the common cold.

For the same reason millions of people buy gaming console?
"Because they satisfy one or more of your tech-needs at a price you are willing to pay"?
Hell, the ability to download pr0n on-the-go and render/consume it on a "Retina display" is probably in itself worth the asking price for an iPhone4...;-)
- Jesper

You know, you could, i don't know, buy a phone? I don't really know how it's in the States, but here in Belgium you can walk into any old store and buy a phone that comes from the manufacturer directly, no network lock-in, no crapware (other then what the manufacturer installed) and best of all, it's *yours*.

You know, you could, i don't know, buy a phone? I don't really know how it's in the States, but here in Belgium you can walk into any old store and buy a phone that comes from the manufacturer directly, no network lock-in, no crapware (other then what the manufacturer installed) and best of all, it's *yours*.

Yeah. Still would cost over $100 a month to use here in the states, though.

While this may be theoretically possible, it's not practical. We Americans have come to expect our phones to be free (or very cheap) with a contract. Of course, cell phone service plans cover the cost of the phone. That's all fine and good, but it is terribly difficult (if not impossible) to find a service plan that actually costs less if you already own a phone. If you buy the phone at the street price and then go get a service plan, you end up paying for the phone twice. Rather than pay twice, we tend to

would someone buy a piece of hardware that continually needs to be "jailbroken" just to be able to be used in the way they want to use it?

Because for a huge number of people, the device does NOT need to be jailbroken to be used in the way they want to use it. Including myself. I jailbroke my first iphone, saw there was nothing REALLY of use that I couldn't do with signed approved app-store code, and didn't bother on my 3g-s.

Am i representative of 100% of the/. community? Of course not, but in reality

would someone buy a piece of hardware that continually needs to be "jailbroken" just to be able to be used in the way they want to use it?

Because for a huge number of people, the device does NOT need to be jailbroken to be used in the way they want to use it. Including myself. I jailbroke my first iphone, saw there was nothing REALLY of use that I couldn't do with signed approved app-store code, and didn't bother on my 3g-s.

Am i representative of 100% of the/. community? Of course not, but in reality the nerd crowd who want to run their own code on the iphone are a tiny share of the market.

Yep, but I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about those who continually buy them, go to the effort to jailbreak them, complain when Apple bricks them, etc.

Of course, some likely do it for the fun of the challenge or something.

For those software engineers still convinced that they can craft the perfect, unbreakable, uncrackable security, you should take two hours of your life and go rent Titanic, the movie about the "unsinkable" White Star cruise liner. There's a valuable metaphore in there for you.

By the sound of it, Apple's next move will be to lock down the devices at the hardware level (this gives them a good excuse) and they will have no second thoughts about doing it at all. This means even more locked down "trusted computing" devices in our future. And the sad thing is the consumers won't care either way.

The best solution to the Apple Problem is simple: do not buy their products.

Perhaps Jobs and co. will realize that many of their end users are not the mindless idiots they seem to think everyone is.

Personally I will never purchase or endorse Apple products. I am, like many Slashdotters, the family computer fixit guy, but I've made it quite clear that I won't touch anything by Apple. My computers are iTunes and Quicktime free for a reason.

This was posted from my Galaxy S Vibrant, easily rooted (I do not envy

Perhaps Jobs and co. will realize that many of their end users are not the mindless idiots they seem to think everyone is.

Just because someone isn't technically savvy doesn't make them a mindless idiot. I know a whole lot of otherwis extremely intelligent people who can't plug a DVD into a TV. One fellow I know [slashdot.org] has an IQ of 160, is a math whiz (MBA who made millions at one point before dropping out and giving it all up), chessmaster, yet has to find someone to put minutes on his phone for him.

Steve instead of trying to forever prevent iPhone users use the same as they want, he could simply accept the fact that users want to use their phones as they want and not as he wants. I am an example of those who like the style of the iPhone, but will never buy one because I'd be "stuck" when he says that I can or can not do. It's the same thing that you buy a computer and the manufacturer say that you can only use the their operating system (and the SO sucks or does not do what you want or need).

You're forgetting something important here I think.Only a very small fraction of the iPhone users actually attempt to jailbreak their device. The majority of people is perfectly happy with the way it works and have no desire to 'hack' it.

Let's not forget that apart from the very closed system it uses the iPhone itself is very very well designed in terms of usability.

When I bought my 3GS it didn't even come with a manual. Just the phone and some cables and stuff. Now, that's a bold statement.Telling your customers 'our device is so user friendly that you don't need a manual, it just works and you'll understand completely how it works without any help needed at all'.

Steve's fight against jailbreaking is a useless fight and he knows that. I think apple only tries to not let it get out of hand. But I don't think it worries them too much. 90% of their customers don't care about it anyway and rightfully so.

Of course, when I saw a HTC desire running Android in action I ditched my iPhone and orderded a Desire rightaway;-)

Aaah but you forget the IBM PC destroyed apple's once dominant position as PC supplier. So much so that nobody even refers to apple's computers as PC's anymore even though they invented them and coined the term in the first place !

If THAT didn't teach Steve that in the long run "open do whatever you want with it" always wins then nothing will.

On the other hand - apple's computers are STILL closed up "do only what we tell you" with them. A

This sort of crap - companies locking you out of your stuff - will continue.

Do you want to know who's to blame?

It's that creepy person who is following you around - you know, the one who's always in the mirror looking at you?

Here's what needs to happen to make this stuff NOT happen:1) Customers need to DEMAND sales contracts that PROHIBIT companies from unilaterally changing the contract after the fact.2) Customers need to DEMAND sales contracts that PROHIBIT removal of features from devices after sale with

Or, you could just stop buying that shit. Sorta like number 3 but no nearly so complex and inter-related. The fact that lots of people still do means that the majority of them don't care about those same things.

I don't know how many times I've had to explain to people about the iTunes installation limits, DVD/BluRay region encoding, HDCP and other similar things, but it doesn't stop *anyone* from actually using that service/product. We that actually care are in the minority. And it's *incredibly* simple

Team Twiizers discovered a vulnerability in one of the low-level boot files of the Wii [bootmii.org], which Nintendo couldn't fix since it was in ROM. They've since started shipping new units with an updated boot ROM that patches the hole, but all older Wiis are basically permanently vulnerable. Something similar will likely happen with iOS devices.

Seriously, Apple wants this to occur. They do not want to have MS style security where every virus and worm writers has loads of openings to work with and steal your stuff, but, they obviously do not want the phone totally locked down. By having it be rooted, then more and more hackers will write interesting code. And it looks to the multi-media and transport company think that Apple is working to do their job, when in fact, they are not.

If they're releasing Jailbreaks this close to the release of an OS then it seems to make sense that they've got a list of vulnerabilities stashed away somewhere. All they do when Apple releases the next one is go down the list. The time between the OS being released and the Jailbreak is only going to be them tidying up the distribution of the Jailbreak so people can do it to phones in the Apple store. The Jailbreakers would be foolish to unleash the lowest level Jailbreak at this point as they could end up with nowhere to go after this. I was surprised with the last one where you could just visit a web page to get the job done. Good job the page just Jailbroke the phone and didn't decide to steal all your data or install something nasty that somehow managed to survive even an iTunes restore.

This is my experience of jailbreaking the around the time of 3.0-3.1. The quality of the external software was dire, and it pushed the cost of maintenance away from someone else (Apple) and onto me.I like playing around with buggy cheap software as much as any other Linux user, but you don't want an app to crash while calling the emergency services!