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Pls explain why cider has this effect on sourdough?

May 7, 2010 - 9:37pm

008cats

Pls explain why cider has this effect on sourdough?

Through a calamity of events that I won't bore you with, I ended up using a UAP with more protein (12% instead of 11%) that I never used before for a lean sourdough, 76% hydration. The dough came out much more runny, very difficult for me to work (if it does work at all). Since it is Friday night and time to party, I decided to try another and on a lark, substituted half of the water for the same weight apple cider. This batch was immediately easier to handle, and after a rest and kneading to window pane, sits plumper and more upright than any sourdough I have made.

Since there is the sugar and also a bit of "fiber" in the cider, I figured it would handle differently, but this was a real surprise. They are still rising (or running, in the first case) - could anybody give me an idea of what the mystery process is here? Oh, and also I put about 3 grams of cinnamon in the second one; the recipe has about 484g of flour in it.

I remember reading somewhere (here, possibly) recently that acetic acid (the acid present in vinegar) is often used as a dough conditioner in commercial breads because it strengthens proteins (which gluten is). So by adding apple cider vinegar to your sourdough, you essentially added a dough conditioner that helps beef up the gluten strands (makes them stronger?) therefore adds structure to the bread.

Just as an aside point, it was apple cider that one drinks, altho I am sure there is that vinegary (post fermented) element to it.

Funny you should ask, I came down this am to check on fermentation, only to find they are BOTH flat batters now, with little fermentation going. I lit our stove - it is below 70 today - but I will be pretty surprised if anything happens... I don't know if it was the flour or the water (the starter is fine), but I think I may have to write this off, check my ingredients and reboot!

If you have come down in the morning to find you doughs have flattend and presumably you have had a reasonable sleep the dough didnt retire for the night too, its kept on working peaked and collapsed, at least once maybe twice.

The stronger flour usually will hold a better shape and hold slightly more gas due to the higher gluten content however the cider has obvoiusly had a benefical effect on the 2nd dough.

perhaps you needed to set the alarm and do some real bakers hours in the wee hours or you could have slowed everything up with the retardation in the fridge.

Its all part of the learning curve that we are all travelling along, did you do any good with the runaways?

Well thanks for all the attention and sorry for the trouble... you know it was a calamitous day, and when I mixed these doughs it was EXTREMELY late; all could have ended well except when I reviewed my notes I found I was way off in my hydration calculation! I must have been on another planet because not only do I NOT know how I figured the first one, the second was even further off the mark!

Anyway, yozza is exactly right - I've been watching side-by-side starters of both UAP's, and the higher protein sustains the rise just that much longer. Well, it was an educational confusion in the bakery zone last night. I promise to double check my math before jumping to conclusions and posting again!

P.S. No long sleeps, no alarm beeps - I'm a strung tight person unless my hands are in the gluten!

I'm glad my early rise and switch onto TFL and the offer of advice made some sense . just to reinterate a really quick check if the weight of flour totals a certain amount then a quick calculation of 1/2 that is 50 % is a good starting point for thee water and it is only after you have put all the water in that the mix wants that you can truelly ascertain what the exact hydration was.

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