Whenever I try to do mahamudra meditations on exploring, observing and locating the mind, I always see my mind located inside my brain. I think this comes from having a western scientific education where mental functions are understood to be in the brain. Sometimes I do experience thoughts as being in front of my forehead, but for the most part I envision them in the brain. I feel kind of stuck here.

I am also starting to question what the definition of the "mind" is . I normally view it as the space in which thoughts arise and disappear. what do you think?

Whenever I try to do mahamudra meditations on exploring, observing and locating the mind, I always see my mind located inside my brain. I think this comes from having a western scientific education where mental functions are understood to be in the brain. Sometimes I do experience thoughts as being in front of my forehead, but for the most part I envision them in the brain. I feel kind of stuck here.

I am also starting to question what the definition of the "mind" is . I normally view it as the space in which thoughts arise and disappear. what do you think?

Are thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc... seperate to mind (as you seem to be implying)? If so where are they to be found?

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Sherab Dorje wrote:Are thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc... seperate to mind (as you seem to be implying)? If so where are they to be found?

Thanks for asking your questions. My answers are: I experience thoughts in my brain similar to viewing bacteria wiggling around in a microscope. The wiggling elements are the thoughts and the space they are inside of, are what I believe is the mind (mind as a container). Negative emotional feelings tend to appear in the stomach. Sensations usually are experienced at point of contact with the body (eyes, ears) except I know that scientifically the sensation is actually happening in the brain.

Last edited by catlady2112 on Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Whenever I try to do mahamudra meditations on exploring, observing and locating the mind, I always see my mind located inside my brain. I think this comes from having a western scientific education where mental functions are understood to be in the brain. Sometimes I do experience thoughts as being in front of my forehead, but for the most part I envision them in the brain. I feel kind of stuck here.

I am also starting to question what the definition of the "mind" is . I normally view it as the space in which thoughts arise and disappear. what do you think?

What you are taking as the mind is actually the 'mental consciousness' which of course is located in the brain. The mind that is talked about in Mahamudra is more like life itself. Substitute the term 'mind' with the term 'life' and you get closer to the actual meaning.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

catlady2112 wrote: My answers are: I experience thoughts in my brain similar to viewing bacteria wiggling around in a microscope. The wiggling elements are the thoughts and the space they are inside of, are what I believe is the mind (mind as a container).

That is not observing the mind. You´re definitely observing your brain, that´s why you´re ending up in it. Your brain is involved in thinking, but it´s not all there´s to it. But what you´re observing is definitely the brain as an organ, that´s why it feels as wiggling as any other organ you observe. You´re observing a feeling inside your body. Observing the mind is even more subtle.

catlady2112 wrote:Thanks for asking your questions. My answers are: I experience thoughts in my brain similar to viewing bacteria wiggling around in a microscope. The wiggling elements are the thoughts and the space they are inside of, are what I believe is the mind (mind as a container). Negative emotional feelings tend to appear in the stomach. Sensations usually are experienced at point of contact with the body (eyes, ears) except I know that scientifically the sensation is actually happening in the brain.

So if I cut open your brain I will find feelings, sensations, and thoughts inside there?

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Mind is what knows, the presence of consciousness. If you say you imagine/feel your brain to be your mind, that is not your mind, it is an image/feeling that the mind is aware of. So, if you want to locate the mind, find what knows.

1Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?2If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.3Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.4With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.

Catlady2112 wrote:I always see my mind located inside my brain. I think this comes from having a western scientific education where mental functions are understood to be in the brain. Sometimes I do experience thoughts as being in front of my forehead, but for the most part I envision them in the brain. I feel kind of stuck here.

That is interesting. Reflecting on my own sitting practice, I am aware of thoughts passing through the mind, and also aware that this involves neural activity. Actually when the mind quietens right down, the amount of neural activity is considerably less. That has been shown by many studies of meditator's brain activities. I think there is something called an 'alpha-wave pattern' associated with meditative states.

But at the same time, from what you are saying, I think there is a strong element of visualization in your case. It is like you are visualizing the brain producing thoughts. There is nothing the matter with that, but I think it likely that this is a 'construction' or a 'vikalpa'. That is, because of your pre-disposition to accept the notion of the equivalence between brain-states and thoughts, that is what you are seeing. You're imagining the brain thinking and in that sense 'constructing' that activity.

The deeper question is, what is actually doing the seeing or constructing? I wouldn't necessarily try and answer that verbally, otherwise it might be more of the same kind of thing. I would treat it like an open question, something to ponder rather than a question to which there is an unambiguous answer. That would be my suggestion.

Whenever I try to do mahamudra meditations on exploring, observing and locating the mind, I always see my mind located inside my brain. I think this comes from having a western scientific education where mental functions are understood to be in the brain. Sometimes I do experience thoughts as being in front of my forehead, but for the most part I envision them in the brain. I feel kind of stuck here.

I am also starting to question what the definition of the "mind" is . I normally view it as the space in which thoughts arise and disappear. what do you think?

Hey, I recommend the book The Practice of Mahamudra, if you've not read it. It's like 60 pages or something.

I'm pretty sure the typical instructions i've seen say that you should keep searching to see if indeed your mind IS inside your brain or what in meditation, rather than viewing this as "wrong", it is where you are at with the meditation. I think the point is to eliminate uncertainty about these questions (granted a BIG task lol), rather than to follow a set of prescribed instructions to get someone else correct answer. You can also try to determine if your thoughts are of the same substance, or fundamentally different than your mind, if you can find a root of the thoughts, and see if they emerge from the "space", or what...again I am not sure the meditation should be undertaken with the idea that you will finish and arrive at a correct answer, the point is just to keep discerning until there is some clarity...I think.

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

Sherab Dorje wrote:So if I cut open your brain I will find feelings, sensations, and thoughts inside there?

According to my understanding in neurology, that is exactly true. You can stimulate different parts of the brain and get different emotional reactions/sensations.

And what of beings that lack physical characteristics: Gods, hell beings, hungry ghosts? Where is their mind located? What of sentient beings that don't have brains: insects, crustaceans, etc...? Where is their mind located?

And what about karma? Which part of the brain is that stored in?

What of Chikkhai, Chonyid and Sidpa bardo experiences? The brain has well and truly stopped working during those (okay, maybe it hasn't completely ceased functioning in the Chikkhai bardo, but definitely in the other two).

And what happens during rebirth? Does the physical brain get reborn too? Do you take it along with you in a little box?

Of course ones mind is located in one's brain too, when one has a brain.

Last edited by Grigoris on Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

The skandhas/kandhas model might be useful here...
You could start by asking where if anywhere ' mind' fits that model.
Or whether current western psychology is correct when it describes the Cartesian concept of 'mind' as simply a convention..

Then you could go on to asking if the skandhas/kandhas model and current psychology are not in fact saying something similar.. with allowances for their respective paradigms..

If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition.
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

Brains and neurology are besides the point. Mahamudra is not a philosophy of mind but a practical method that is to be applied within one's personal sphere of experience. If there are bodily feelings one identifies with mind, those should be looked into using the correct path of analysis as presented in the Mahamudra instructions. Theorising about all that is a different thing.

1Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?2If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.3Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.4With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.

Sherab Dorje wrote:So if I cut open your brain I will find feelings, sensations, and thoughts inside there?

According to my understanding in neurology, that is exactly true. You can stimulate different parts of the brain and get different emotional reactions/sensations.

Sure! And if I shine light in your eyes, you will see it as well. If there's sound in your ears, you will hear it. Does that mean your mind is there? The senses and brain are obviously connected in creating experiences. Are these experiences mind?

What is the difference between a certain cognition, and awareness of that cognition? Is it in the same place? Does it have the same shape?

'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

It's amazing how many of you see mind and mental consciousness as being the same thing. They are different.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")