NV is losing its damage boost in 6.0, so it'll be more or less a copy of Shaman's AG. Given that NV will allow you to heal without breaking your primary role, it will be most likely be the front runner for 'the' raid talent to pick.

Huth, I do understand the intent of HotW, sadly that intent does not mesh with raiding at all. My overall point is that no talent should be in a position where you wouldn't ever be picking it for a raid. At the moment, that reason is HotW-Tranq; it's not a very good reason, but it's a reason. Without that, HotW will have no real function in a raid that the new DoC or NV can't also fulfil, without causing your DPS to come to a complete standstill.

Not every talent needs to mesh well with raiding. I rather they don't. There are also PVP implications for talents. I don't like Blizzards stance on not seperating what they do in PVE vs PVP it just makes balance harder. I personally preferred the "this is a PVP oriented spec" version of the game a bit better.

Not every talent needs to mesh well with raiding. I rather they don't. There are also PVP implications for talents. I don't like Blizzards stance on not seperating what they do in PVE vs PVP it just makes balance harder. I personally preferred the "this is a PVP oriented spec" version of the game a bit better.

We already have two CC tiers which hardly have any purpose in raiding, the last thing we need is yet another tier with exactly the same effect.
Why should our T90 work out differently than what attonement achieved over the course of MoP? I'm quite confident that in a best case scenario our T90 will perform on par with WoD attonement (25% worse than MoP) - just that discipline priest, a non hybrid spec, get this feature as a core ability, while we have to "sacrifice" our T90 to achieve the same? For sure it can't be "you get to choose one of three differently flavored ways to do so".

To go into more detail on how I percieve any of those talents:
HotW by itself is an abomination. You have access to about 2-3 spec defining abilites for your offspecs and lack any form of advanced class mechanics. Mastery, about 70% of the rotation, the cooldowns associated with the specs - all which make those specs perform where they're supposed to stand. T100/perks just makes this even more of a problem. Actually I'm quite confident that the complete lack of a class toolkit was one of the reason no one bothered with HotW's hybridity part outside of Tranquility. Why tie yourself to a boring 2 spells for 45 seconds, sacrifice your entire main role, and still perform subpar on your chosen secondary role (either because numbers were off, or in the case of healing more likely, those two abilities just weren't enough to have you perform at the desired level)?

As for NV? Resto will pick it because it increases healing, where this is either because of an oversight, or more likely, because it would encourage bad gameplay otherwise (to actually achieve non-negligible DPS you have to waste a huge ammount of mana). For non-resto specs, what performance do you expect this talent to have in an enviroment, in which blizzard just removed all raidcooldowns from non-healspecs? Either it'll become a requirement (you're the only DD with a raidcd) or you just don't pick it (DoC will may at least provide you with self-sustainablitity)

As for DoC, if it provides druids with enough healing to self-sustain their HP at comfortable leves (remember: goal is you can savely stay below 100%), they'll become required for mythic raiding as you're allowed to drop healers in favor of more DD's. If it doesn't, what's the reason this talent is there to begin with?

As for DoC, if it provides druids with enough healing to self-sustain their HP at comfortable leves (remember: goal is you can savely stay below 100%), they'll become required for mythic raiding as you're allowed to drop healers in favor of more DD's. If it doesn't, what's the reason this talent is there to begin with?

You're still operating on the expectation that these talents are meant to be usefull in high-end raiding. If you're playing Balance, you're a DD. Blizz balances raids on the expectation that you deal damage, not heal. If DoC is so strong you don't really need to get healed, it will get nerfed.

Also, i wouldn't say that the CC tiers have no use in raiding. If anything, i use those more than i use the offspec aspects of the 90 tier.

I'm not sure how subpar a resto druid doing 400k+ dps for 40 sec is though. I used hotw lots of times as 16m can easily be the difference between a kill and a wipe, sure I don't heal for 40 sec but I trust my other healers to be able to cover that during BL

You're still operating on the expectation that these talents are meant to be usefull in high-end raiding.

Not really. I'm fine with one or two tiers achieving being limited to either PvE/PvP, but it shouldn't be every other talent tier which is limited to mostly PvP or in case of tier 90, no part of the game. Also, there is no reason to distinct between "normal" and "mythic" PvE content - on a well balanced talent tier a talent useful in one, will be useful in the other.

If you're playing Balance, you're a DD. Blizz balances raids on the expectation that you deal damage, not heal.

The design goal for T90 is to encourage hybrid play. As for the second part of your statement, fistweaving and attonement disagree.

If DoC is so strong you don't really need to get healed, it will get nerfed.

Yet it will have to be enough healing to have you live for a longer period of time without actually recieving heal from a healer. Last time I checked the best way to go for enrage timer on progress raiding was to drop a healer. Here you got the way how to do it, just this time round you can do it, because you do not have to pick the highest DPS option, but rather the best off-spec option (your DPS will obviously balanced to be on par with other classes, and T90 is DPS neutral per design)

Also, i wouldn't say that the CC tiers have no use in raiding. If anything, i use those more than i use the offspec aspects of the 90 tier.

And the 5.4 nerfs have shown that the hybrid tier is highly problematic in PvP. If it's hardly used in PvE, and troublesom for PvP balance - why have it at all?

How did you manage to get "Mistweaver" out of "Fistweaving" and "Holy/Disc" out of "Attonement"? I gave you perfectly valid examples of hybrid play via Fistweaving (even more so in WoD actually) and attonement, and the only thing you managed was to change my words to (supposedly) make me appear like an idiot?

How did you manage to get "Mistweaver" out of "Fistweaving" and "Holy/Disc" out of "Attonement"? I gave you perfectly valid examples of hybrid play via Fistweaving (even more so in WoD actually) and attonement, and the only thing you managed was to change my words to (supposedly) make me appear like an idiot?

His original statement

If you're playing Balance, you're a DD. Blizz balances raids on the expectation that you deal damage, not heal.

is clearly speaking in regards to balance spec.

Your response

The design goal for T90 is to encourage hybrid play. As for the second part of your statement, fistweaving and attonement disagree.

clearly is shifting the topic from balance as a dps spec with hybrid talent options to healing specs who have core mechanics of converting damage->heals.

Hence why he is saying you gave examples that had nothing to do with his statement regarding T90 talents and the DPS spec.
You did a total non-sequitur and then have the gall to be shocked when called on it.

A better example may have been to show whether or not blizzard balanced shadowpriest dps along with their hybrid ability to do a lot of healing (Blizz claims to not have taxed their dps because of their offheals, yet often proclaim their offhealing as a valuable utility reason to bring one.) Come WoD, a fair chunk of that offhealing (T90) is going away. - at least you'd be on topic going down that road.

The rest is gone from the talent. This means that if you use NV, you get a bit off-healing without interrupting your dps. If you pick HotW, you can stop dps'ing to do a significant amount of healing. This seems to be a legitimate choice of gameplay for the player, and can both have its uses for different types of fights. Both are not increasing dps.

Your response clearly is shifting the topic from balance as a dps spec with hybrid talent options to healing specs who have core mechanics of converting damage->heals.

Hence why he is saying you gave examples that had nothing to do with his statement regarding T90 talents and the DPS spec.
You did a total non-sequitur and then have the gall to be shocked when called on it.

He wasn't talking about T90 and DPS spec, he was talking about T90 on a DPS spec >in high end raiding< ("Blizz balances raids" to cite huth). There's hardly a difference if you drop a healer in favor of a DPS, because you have hybrids providing significant amount of healing - or wether you have the healers provide a significant amount of DPS.

He wasn't talking about T90 and DPS spec, he was talking about T90 on a DPS spec >in high end raiding< ("Blizz balances raids" to cite huth). There's hardly a difference if you drop a healer in favor of a DPS, because you have hybrids providing significant amount of healing - or wether you have the healers provide a significant amount of DPS.

Yes there is. Because the Healer can drop back to 100% healer at any time, but he can never become a 100% DD.