I remember many years ago talking to a friend of mine. He'd been a player in high school before he became a Christian, and I think he'd laid off on dating for a while. He wasn't really naive or anything, normally.

But he was telling me about this female friend he had. He'd go talk with her for hours and hours. He said she was a great girl. She was even a virgin, and he certainly wasn't. He was trying to figure out if she liked him as more than a friend.

The next time I went back to the US, they were married. It turns out that girl was the roommate of someone who would marry into my family, too. So it's a small world.

Within a couple of years of that, I actually went through the same thing with my wife. When I met her, I told her we could just be friends. On the one hand she thought I must have thought a lot of myself for me to imply she might be interested in me romantically, and on the other, she was disappointed that I'd say lets just have a friendship because she was interested in me romantically. We were both interested in that. I just didn't want to rush into it. She did not speak English that well, and I did not speak her language that well. She kept calling me 'brother', which I thought was her reinforcing the 'just friends' thing. Really, it was just a cultural thing. I was a little older, and in her language she'd have called me a word for older brother to show respect instead of just calling me by my name. When I started to talk to her about us being more than friends, she thought I might stop wanting to hang out with her if she liked me as more than a friend. But we sorted it out and eventually got married. We both learned each other's language over time and we understand each other pretty well now.

My wife and I had lunch with that friend of mine I mentioned before and his wife a while back. We'd gone out for dinner once when we are all young. I mentioned that conversation to them where my friend said that he was trying to figure out if she just wanted to be friends or not, and she said they were friends for a really really long time, and it took him a long time to actually date her. I guess she was waiting for it.

How many of you have transitioned from being friends to being something more? How many of you had that conversation?

It took me many years to realize that men should soundly and firmly REJECT being friends with women from the outset. I know it seems harsh, but this is the best policy and I will explain why.

Women are programmed to extract as much resources and attention from a man as possible. Men are programmed to provide resources and attention to women in exchange for sex and affection.

When a woman declares that a man is just a friend, he is in the non-sexual zone where he will fruitlessly try to escape by doing favors and providing attention to the woman. If the woman is receiving all this from the man without sex being involved, she gets to reserve her sex for the top man of her choice later on. She can keep collecting "man-friends" who are at her beck and call while sleeping with the man or men of her choosing.

When a man meets a woman, he needs to IMMEDIATELY make his romantic/sexual interest known so that the woman can either accept or reject it. Make no mistake, many women are non-committal and try to defer the decision till later. THIS IS REJECTION but the woman is simply playing upon the man's false HOPE for sex later on.

Western society encourages male/female "friendships" so that women can exploit this manipulative strategy to its fullest. When I learned the Russian language, it became even clearer that I was right about this. There really is no term for a woman who is the friend of a man. The term "Padruga" means either female to female friendship or male to female romantic relationship. This is where the West gets it wrong and Russian culture gets it right.

The best resource for this theme is author Alan Roger Currie who penned Mode One and The Possibility of Sex which detail how women exploit men's false hope for sex in "friendships" and how men should avoid this trap. He explains that women place men in the romantic or non-romantic category in the first meeting so place so men have to ensure they are in the romantic category or reject the relationship altogether.

From a personal standpoint, when I meet a woman, I make it known early that I find her sexually attractive. Some women reciprocate, but many balk and give me the "what kind of girl do you think I am?" lecture. It is only a front. About 50% of those balkers go on to get it from me in that way because I have established that the friends option is not on the table.

I reiterate; NEVER accept friendship from women as a personal policy. It is either you are romantic with them or you are not, period. The only exception would be platonic friendships in the workplace or in business that have mutual strategic value for both of you.

This does not mean you cannot be friendly with particular women like your favorite waitress, or barista, or neighbor, or classmate, but don't be "FRIENDS" with them so they can manipulate favors like fixing their cars, moving furniture, loaning money, free dinner dates, etc from you based on the false hope for sex that you will not get since they are milking you for free.

This is real talk and it goes against the conditioning of Western men, but trust me, it is true and it works wonders!

Since I'm not into fornication, I've never gotten in to the 'beta orbiter' trap, as I've heard it described, the guy who keeps hanging out with a girl to eventually sleep with her. I can't think of women friends who have mooched off of me. Other than my wife and girls I've dated, I can't think of women who I've gone out with and paid for their meals. I don't fix cars. At the most, female friends got some conversation off me. That's free and it's not that hard. I did go out to dinner in a just-me-and-another female situation where we were 'just friends' where we both paid for our own. One friend of mine might have even paid for my food at times. I'd possible I reciprocated. That was a long time ago. But she was very attractive, but I wasn't pursuing her. That would be the closest I came to being a 'beta orbiter', aside from my early relationship with my wife where we were 'friends' but both interested in each other.

Nowadays, female friends are situations where my wife and I have a mutual friend, or else its someone at work, and I am not extremely close with women at work.

Some men aren't really focused when it comes to finding romantic relationships, aiming for the best looking woman and pursuing them. Maybe are okay with girls who are a little lower on the 1 to 10 scale, and the girl is too. They develop a friendship and it turns into more. Or the maybe they are both highly attracted from one another from the get-go, but start out as a friendship.

MrMan wrote:They develop a friendship and it turns into more. Or the maybe they are both highly attracted from one another from the get-go, but start out as a friendship.

This "friendship first" paradigm is a feminist myth meant to maximize female ability to manipulate men. I'm not going to say it is impossible for men escape from the friendzone, but men in the know are aware that it is far better to never get in there in the first place.

Again, men must ensure the woman either places them in the romantic category or loses them entirely.

From my personal standpoint, I have had women re-initiate contact with romantic interest AFTER I politely rejected their friendship. So this is another benefit. Women are not used to that so it spikes your value in their eyes hugely.

Your being both religious and married places you in a category where much of this can't really apply, but for most unmarried men who DO pursue romantic relationships with women, this is key information to know.

It doesn't matter. The problem is that men don't know who the prize is. The prize is the man, not the woman. Once you realize that, it becomes a matter of seeing which women will treat you as a prince, and then proceed from there. Sift out the women who are disrespectful, who claim their time is too precious, who don't seem like they are interested.

It seems fairly obvious to say, go for the women who show interest. And especially go for the ones who treat you with respect and honor. And wait for them to do all the work. Because if they are interested, they are not going to let you get away. And if they let you get away, they've missed out.

When I say interest, I don't mean lip service or agreement. I mean she's trying to make this happen!

In other words, she sees you are precious and she is pursuing you. Of course it is possible the way we've all been taught (with the man pursuing the woman), but then you are not the prince. You may have just put her on the pedestal above yourself.

It took me many years to realize that men should soundly and firmly REJECT being friends with women from the outset. I know it seems harsh, but this is the best policy and I will explain why.

Mr. ContraExpat,

Is this generally speaking about Western women? If so, I totally agree. But what about the girls outside the west who actually do give you some benefits outside sex? I was in China not long ago and a couple girls took me on dates and paid, always called and made sure if I was ok, bought me clothed, and would go out of their way for me. Or is this just another trap?

MrMan wrote:They develop a friendship and it turns into more. Or the maybe they are both highly attracted from one another from the get-go, but start out as a friendship.

This "friendship first" paradigm is a feminist myth meant to maximize female ability to manipulate men. I'm not going to say it is impossible for men escape from the friendzone, but men in the know are aware that it is far better to never get in there in the first place.

Again, men must ensure the woman either places them in the romantic category or loses them entirely.

From my personal standpoint, I have had women re-initiate contact with romantic interest AFTER I politely rejected their friendship. So this is another benefit. Women are not used to that so it spikes your value in their eyes hugely.

Your being both religious and married places you in a category where much of this can't really apply, but for most unmarried men who DO pursue romantic relationships with women, this is key information to know.

She feels that a man is a chump if he doesn't take the lead nor draw fine lines up front.

Second date, we were in the movie theater watching mother! #horriblemovie, and it was so boring that I decided to grope up my date, rub her p***y on her pants and her inner thigh. She said the following week she was saddened that I was just another guy [whom typically does these things get that one thing only]. Such feminist social engineering down the yellow brick road type of s.hit again, right? lol

I explained to her that I'm no sucker that you cannot box me into that friendzone malarkey. Did you know that she verbosely admitted that she has more respect for me now because I had put my foot down based on the aforementioned disclaimer??!

Here's the scoop:

1st date: I paid for our East Indian lunch buffet circa 42 bucks. She left no tip.
2nd date: movie theater: free tickets she provided (I know what you're thinking, ConEx LOL - I`m already anticipating and not stupid) for two at the AMC movie theatre where I groped her (see story above ^^)
3rd date: Mimi's restaurant & cafe: I was angrily sarcastic when I first walked in just to sh.it test her and deliberately said, "Pardon me. Let me start over from the beginning. `Hi`...`How was your day?`"
She politely excused herself and then and there, I'd asserted, "What's the matter? You're going to leave me now?" LOL She came back 10 minutes later from the bathroom after explaining she had too `wooosah` herself down a 1,000. I ended up paying 40 bucks again; this time she left a 10-dollar tip. I reevaluated, "Are you sure you want to leave ten bucks for a tip?" She replied, "Certainly.". She texted me that she had a fun time that we danced to no music in the parking lot AFTER WE ALMOST "BROKE UP" at the beginning of the date LMAO
4th date: will be in three hours, she doesn't know it yet, but she will take me to FatBurger. I've always wanted to go to the one in Livermore. I will make her pay for all of the meal.
5th date: will be at her house, if she doesn't fck, I'm just going to begin to ignore her and then out of the woodwork, if she ask why i don't return her calls. It'll be because I'm "busy" and I'll use her to buy my music so I can make money off of her.

Kradmelder might have been a pompous bigoted pig, but he's right about some things; one of them is that after the fifth date, cut that zero (i.e. sever all ties from her and treat her as a patron whom one can make money off of from thereon out - no looking back)

It took me many years to realize that men should soundly and firmly REJECT being friends with women from the outset. I know it seems harsh, but this is the best policy and I will explain why.

Mr. ContraExpat,

Is this generally speaking about Western women? If so, I totally agree. But what about the girls outside the west who actually do give you some benefits outside sex? I was in China not long ago and a couple girls took me on dates and paid, always called and made sure if I was ok, bought me clothed, and would go out of their way for me. Or is this just another trap?

Good question, and I would have to say yes this does primarily apply to Western women and not women from traditional cultures as much. BUT, it can apply to foreign women whenever they try to assign you friendzone status.

I can say that non-western women tend to be less naive about male intentions but they are picking up on Western women's lead all the time due to mass media and Hollywood influence.

The short answer is it can apply to foreign women to a much lesser extent depending on the traditional nature of the culture at hand. I would also say that my approach works better when it is more subtle outside of the West when it generally is in the first conversation or two.

The key is to not allow yourself to be dragged along as an orbiter. Whatever you have to do to prevent that will suffice.

E Irizarry R&B Singer wrote:
She feels that a man is a chump if he doesn't take the lead nor draw fine lines up front.

Yup, that is part of it, but try getting a woman to actually admit that!

E Irizarry R&B Singer wrote:
I explained to her that I'm no sucker that you cannot box me into that friendzone malarkey. Did you know that she verbosely admitted that she has more respect for me now because I had put my foot down based on the aforementioned disclaimer??!

Sure she respected you. You were not service as a emasculated beta tool for her the way most men are conditioned to react!

Sadly, you will STILL have most men arguing against this because they've been so conditioned to believing "the malarkey" as you've rightly termed it.