Fort Lauderdale, FL - Victoria Park residents are upset about a Jewish sect whose very popular, elderly leader has moved into the neighborhood, attracting people to the 7,000 square foot home.

Residents complained in emails to Commissioner Charlotte Rodstrom that scores of people have religious meetings at the home that involve stomping and noise. They say a Hasidic Jewish Sect, The Tosh, from Montreal, Canada, has moved there.

“There is no doubt in our minds that the Rabbi is a very spiritual man,’’ resident Larry Eskesen wrote to his commissioner, “ … but does he have to be spiritual so noisily?’’

The city is taking a cautious approach to this, citing what happened to Hollywood in 2005, City Attorney Harry Stewart said.

“We see it as not too dissimilar from the altercation that Hollywood got into with the Chabad,’’ Stewart said. “The Chabad is still there and Hollywood got tagged for $2 million.’’

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Federal law dictates that cities treat religious groups as they treat any other group. For example, if the Boy Scouts can meet in Victoria Park, then so can members of a religious organization. Houses of worship aren’t allowed in the Victoria Park neighborhood, but a residential home where religious meetings occasionally occur would be OK, Stewart said.

The city looked into allegations of parking and garbage code violations, and found none, he said.

Rodstrom advised the neighborhood president, Ted Fling, in an email Tuesday that the city “welcomes the diversity of all of our residents and guests’’ and had found no evidence of code violations at the house at 417 11th Ave.

6

Apr 01, 2009 at 07:36 PMshelpshitz Says:

7

Apr 01, 2009 at 09:34 PMDuvy Says:

If the neighbors push it, it will become hard to defend. If they hold minyanim there, it would be hard not to call it a "place of worship". And besides I'm sure his Chassdim in Tush would appreciate to have the Rebbe back a little sooner.

11

Apr 01, 2009 at 08:54 PMAnonymous Says:

“
what's the deal? why'd they move to Ft Lauderdale?... of all places? ”

The rebba himself needs peace and quiet in other parts of Florida it would be way noisier and busier. I am glad there wasn't anything they could hold against them. KOLHAKOVOD. It became popular to complain about the jewish people no matter where they are including th chassanah halls and so forth. As of today America is still a free country accomodating every body who is legally allowed to be here, They don't complain about other noises such as teenagers and so forth. It isn't like the rebba is living there all year. Hashem just keeps testing and testing us till MOSSIACHs time. May the rebba and our generation live to see him come right away.

15

Apr 01, 2009 at 11:00 PMAnonymous Says:

no one ever mention about the rebbe being a noise maker . its his followers who are making a rukus . chasidim are not exempt from treating area neighbors with dignity. shape up or ship out and let the rebbe stay.

16

Apr 01, 2009 at 10:58 PMMilhouse Says:

“
If the neighbors push it, it will become hard to defend. If they hold minyanim there, it would be hard not to call it a "place of worship". And besides I'm sure his Chassdim in Tush would appreciate to have the Rebbe back a little sooner. ”

On the contrary, it will be very easy to defend. A person is allowed to have company over, as often as he likes. It's his house, if people want to visit him that's none of the neighbours' business. He can have minyonim just as he can have lehavdil poker games.

18

Apr 01, 2009 at 10:47 PMAnonymous Says:

So let the neighbors wait it out. You'd think it was a den of iniquity the way they're making such a fuss. Stomping? What do they think Chasidim are? Circus elephants??? The whole thing's ridiculous. They should be delighted to have a holy person in their backwater.

20

Apr 01, 2009 at 10:27 PMAnonymous Says:

“
that foolish man, watch he'll soon ask the rebbe for mechila and a brocha. ”

If you lived next door to a house wheere 70-100+ Tosha chasidim were singing and dancing as late as 2:00 AM motzi shabbos at the rebbe's weekly shalosh sudos tish, you would be complaining too...the only brocha he wants is quiet in what until recently was a peaceful neighborhood

25

Apr 02, 2009 at 06:11 AMAnonymous Says:

“
So let the neighbors wait it out. You'd think it was a den of iniquity the way they're making such a fuss. Stomping? What do they think Chasidim are? Circus elephants??? The whole thing's ridiculous. They should be delighted to have a holy person in their backwater. ”

I resent that. Broward County, Florida is not a backwater.

We have Yiddishkeit and perfect weather, Glatt Kosher meat in the Supermarts, and kemach yoshon bakeries.We now have one of the tzadikei hador, the Toshe Rebbe, SHLITA, as a snow bird. What more can we ask.Sure, there are slight growing pains as quiet upper-scale neighborhoods get used to the tumledikke way we sometimes live.

But, I live in Inverrary. Here I live barely 100 yards from shul and mikvah, with pool homes running under 300k. Here we have NO state or city income tax, never a parking problem, every store, or anyplace else you drive to, has plenty of its own parking. NO parking tickets.

Let's see:Great weatherYiddenShulsMikvaosCrazy low home pricesNo State Income TaxNo City Income Tax$50,000 Homestead Excemption on your home, condo or townhomeCLEAN AirLower Crime35 min from MiamiCheap Cigs from the Indians, for those insane enough to still smoke,Great Doctor/patient ratios

I like this place. If this is a backwater, I will stay in this backwater.

Our shul here in Inverrary, has a great mixture of:ChabadYeshivishMod OrthSatmarZionistsIsraeliesViznitzBreslovMorrocanYemenites

28

Apr 01, 2009 at 11:52 PMAnonymous Says:

excuse me. I have been by the rabbi at that address and there is no noise this must be some anti-semite that is causing this whole racket. it happens to be that they only let people come by appointment and there aren't that many people coming there at one given time. it is beautiful quiet and very clean there. no one is bothering anybody. only we are in gulas and people love to complain against us.

29

Apr 01, 2009 at 11:44 PMUse Your Head Says:

“
On the contrary, it will be very easy to defend. A person is allowed to have company over, as often as he likes. It's his house, if people want to visit him that's none of the neighbours' business. He can have minyonim just as he can have lehavdil poker games. ”

You might want to familiarize yourself with the concept of zoning laws and other governmental restrictions on the use of private property. In many areas, one actually cannot just decide to use one's residence as a regular place of public congregation or as a prayer hall. Perhaps you live in a municipality with very lax property use laws, but that would be an exception compared to most populated areas.

30

Apr 01, 2009 at 11:13 PMAnonymous Says:

“
On the contrary, it will be very easy to defend. A person is allowed to have company over, as often as he likes. It's his house, if people want to visit him that's none of the neighbours' business. He can have minyonim just as he can have lehavdil poker games. ”

The heilege rebbe does not play poker or any card games so I assume you are joking. If he does have a minyan, siyum mitzvah or hold forth at a tish on shabbos, his "guests" must be respectful of the neighbors and not park to block their driveways or make too much noise.

31

Apr 01, 2009 at 11:15 PMPMO Says:

I would love to have him as a neighbor.... So long as none of the other people show up. I moved to a quiet neighborhood for QUIET. Thank H" we have a homeowners association here. If they were noisy after 9pm during the week or 10pm on weekends they would be fined $50 for the first time $100 next, $200, $400, $800... etc... the schedule keeps doubling. Every community that wants to maintain peace and quiet should have a homeowners association. It also has all kinds of rules about parking on the streets, etc. I LOVE IT.

32

Apr 02, 2009 at 06:55 AMmurray Says:

We have Yiddishkeit and perfect weather, Glatt Kosher meat in the Supermarts, and kemach yoshon bakeries.We now have one of the tzadikei hador, the Toshe Rebbe, SHLITA, as a snow bird. What more can we ask.Sure, there are slight growing pains as quiet upper-scale neighborhoods get used to the tumledikke way we sometimes live.

But, I live in Inverrary. Here I live barely 100 yards from shul and mikvah, with pool homes running under 300k. Here we have NO state or city income tax, never a parking problem, every store, or anyplace else you drive to, has plenty of its own parking. NO parking tickets.

Let's see:Great weatherYiddenShulsMikvaosCrazy low home pricesNo State Income TaxNo City Income Tax$50,000 Homestead Excemption on your home, condo or townhomeCLEAN AirLower Crime35 min from MiamiCheap Cigs from the Indians, for those insane enough to still smoke,Great Doctor/patient ratios

I like this place. If this is a backwater, I will stay in this backwater.

Our shul here in Inverrary, has a great mixture of:ChabadYeshivishMod OrthSatmarZionistsIsraeliesViznitzBreslovMorrocanYemenites

please don't forget to mention: Inverrary has a true Torah Scholar (and wonderful) Rabbi of the Shul. (and head of Kashrus) ALSO- we have common sense gun (carry) laws where any legal (law abiding) citizen can purchase and carry concealled weapons for their own safety and defense. The gun ranges are friendly to Jews, where we can practice and learn good safety and marksmanship.

35

Apr 02, 2009 at 08:08 AMPMO Says:

We have Yiddishkeit and perfect weather, Glatt Kosher meat in the Supermarts, and kemach yoshon bakeries.We now have one of the tzadikei hador, the Toshe Rebbe, SHLITA, as a snow bird. What more can we ask.Sure, there are slight growing pains as quiet upper-scale neighborhoods get used to the tumledikke way we sometimes live.

But, I live in Inverrary. Here I live barely 100 yards from shul and mikvah, with pool homes running under 300k. Here we have NO state or city income tax, never a parking problem, every store, or anyplace else you drive to, has plenty of its own parking. NO parking tickets.

Let's see:Great weatherYiddenShulsMikvaosCrazy low home pricesNo State Income TaxNo City Income Tax$50,000 Homestead Excemption on your home, condo or townhomeCLEAN AirLower Crime35 min from MiamiCheap Cigs from the Indians, for those insane enough to still smoke,Great Doctor/patient ratios

I like this place. If this is a backwater, I will stay in this backwater.

Our shul here in Inverrary, has a great mixture of:ChabadYeshivishMod OrthSatmarZionistsIsraeliesViznitzBreslovMorrocanYemenites

Well said! Florida (most of it anyway) has become a beautiful mixture of various types... everyone a yiroh shomayim... there is ahavas Torah... ahavas Yisroel and far less of the self-serving political issues like in the NY ghettos.

Those of us who ran away from NY socialism (bordering on communism now!) know how good life can be without the thumb of the government on us every day. Since moving here I work half as hard for twice as much. I have more time to spend learning than ever before. We pay no state income tax... my property taxes are $3500... car insurance is VERY cheap... and in most Jewish areas, crime rates are incredibly low. AND we have no "alternate side of the street parking". The best thing about it all is that, for the most part, we are like minded in that we wanted nothing more to do with the politics, socialism and sinas chinam in NY.

37

Apr 02, 2009 at 08:41 AMAnonymous Says:

“
where is Inverrary? is it on the ocean? do they have rentals for the winter months? ”

No, we are not on the beach. We are about 12 miles inland, but close to the highways. This means we don't get tourist traffic, and don't get the problems associated with being too close to the ocean. We are close enough to be there in a short time, but far enough to not be "in it" so to speak.

We do not have "seasonal" rentals, but we do have many people who purchase condos and only live here 6 months or less out of the year.

There are some GREAT condo buys today....This used to be a stop on the PGA, the Inverrary Country Club course. Jackie Gleason's house is here.But about 15 years ago, the tournament moved, and many of the "Golf Chassidim" moved, causing the area to drop in value. It was formerly a non-frum mostly Jewish community. It changed.It is being rebuilt now as a Frum community for all, with new growth.

38

Apr 02, 2009 at 08:33 AMInverrary Resident Says:

“
please don't forget to mention: Inverrary has a true Torah Scholar (and wonderful) Rabbi of the Shul. (and head of Kashrus) ALSO- we have common sense gun (carry) laws where any legal (law abiding) citizen can purchase and carry concealled weapons for their own safety and defense. The gun ranges are friendly to Jews, where we can practice and learn good safety and marksmanship. ”

You both are obviously talking about Rav Aron Lieberman's shul on 44th St. in Inverrary. For those of you who don't know where Inverrary is, it is a town within a town, sort of, in Lauderhill, FL.

Yes, Rav Aron Lieberman is a talmid chochum, and av beis din of the ORB, and rosh yeshiva of the smicha kollel.

We also have another unique bracha. We have a genuinly GOOD Chazzan, real chazzan, who is also a talmid chochom, and nice guy, Rav Yossi Leibovics (yes, son of the Chazzan from Montreal)

But what that first guy wrote is true. People get along here.Housing is VERY affordable.Cost of living is low.Streimels friends with kippot serugot.That guy with the white socks taught me that chassidim are friendly people. Who knew?

But, yes, Aron Lieberman's shul is worth moving to Florida for.Oh, most of the new couples who have moved here during the past 4 years are couples in their 20's

Definately, a young kehilla with lots of kids and friendliness.

Oh, let's see what else we can brag about...one of our younger married men is in Law School.Our kehilla contains doctors, lawyers, accountants, computer IT pros, mashgichim, artists, used car salesmen, and almost every form of earning a living, as well as people sitting and learning.

You will almost always find people sitting here and learning, and during the day here the sounds of kids in our pre-school playing in the adjacent park, or our bochurim in our Semicha kolell learing a Shach or Taz.

Politically we vary from Long-haired Berkeley Liberals, to Rush Conservatives... and they get along too. weird.... but nice.

Backwater? Maybe it is the Ahavas Yisroel here that makes us a "Backwater"... hmmmm

39

Apr 02, 2009 at 09:20 AMPMO Says:

“
You both are obviously talking about Rav Aron Lieberman's shul on 44th St. in Inverrary. For those of you who don't know where Inverrary is, it is a town within a town, sort of, in Lauderhill, FL.

Yes, Rav Aron Lieberman is a talmid chochum, and av beis din of the ORB, and rosh yeshiva of the smicha kollel.

We also have another unique bracha. We have a genuinly GOOD Chazzan, real chazzan, who is also a talmid chochom, and nice guy, Rav Yossi Leibovics (yes, son of the Chazzan from Montreal)

But what that first guy wrote is true. People get along here.Housing is VERY affordable.Cost of living is low.Streimels friends with kippot serugot.That guy with the white socks taught me that chassidim are friendly people. Who knew?

But, yes, Aron Lieberman's shul is worth moving to Florida for.Oh, most of the new couples who have moved here during the past 4 years are couples in their 20's

Definately, a young kehilla with lots of kids and friendliness.

Oh, let's see what else we can brag about...one of our younger married men is in Law School.Our kehilla contains doctors, lawyers, accountants, computer IT pros, mashgichim, artists, used car salesmen, and almost every form of earning a living, as well as people sitting and learning.

You will almost always find people sitting here and learning, and during the day here the sounds of kids in our pre-school playing in the adjacent park, or our bochurim in our Semicha kolell learing a Shach or Taz.

Politically we vary from Long-haired Berkeley Liberals, to Rush Conservatives... and they get along too. weird.... but nice.

Backwater? Maybe it is the Ahavas Yisroel here that makes us a "Backwater"... hmmmm

”

We should be careful playing it up too much.... do we really want to bring the brooklyn/queens/long island problems here? :-)

Apr 02, 2009 at 09:19 AMheiliga rebbe Says:

41

Apr 02, 2009 at 09:07 AManonymous Says:

To answer about minyan is considered house of worship- you're wrong!! There's a law in Florida called "El Rupa" (spelling?) That anyone can meet for religious purposes in a private home even in a place not zoned for a shul. Also, I was there, and its not noisy or congested there. They have valet parking so there are no cars parked around there and there aren't that many chassidim that come down with him.

43

Apr 02, 2009 at 09:34 AMMilhouse Says:

“
gezel shayna is a big sin which you can not pay back and that is what i call playing with fire . chassidim are not exempt from this avera nor his this tusha rebbe . ”

Go look in hilchos shcheinim. Neighbours have no right to complain about a melamed, a shul, a beis medrash, or anything of that sort. The torah and avodah being complained of is more important than their sleep.

45

Apr 02, 2009 at 10:16 AMAnonymous Says:

Though much of what Milhouse says is true, he is not aware of the situation here in South Florida.

In moving to Florida the people 50 years ago made up their minds to leave the mistakes of unplanned communities up North, and really plan out the Florida communities.

They built "All ages" communities and "55+" communities.

People with kids could live in the all ages, and those who were older, and wanted quiet, or were old and afraid of tripping over a kid's toy, can live in a 55+ community.

They wrote zoning laws with the intent to actually enforce them.

No store can be opened without adequate parking off the streets. We do not park on the streets.No community can change its population density from the original plans without paying for the road widening necessary to make sure we have enough road lanes for viable driving to work in a reasonable time.

The entire Broward Couny is criss crossed with all main roads being 6-lane streets, with twin turning lanes.Side streets are wide, but not straight. We wind our roads through residential areas, to keep traffic out of them. If you are just driving through, you stick to the main roads, which go straight. You would not want to wind through the residential neighborhoods, and it would take too long.This protects kids from being smushed.We have high speed limits on main roads and highways, but 15 MPH in school zones. And we have plenty of school zones. Again, trying not to smush kids.

All businesses and stores of any kind are in shopping centers and/or strip malls, all with plenty of parking, and all just outside of the residential neighborhoods.

This means nobody is ever parking or driving near your home to get to the supermarket, church, office, shul, hospital or doctor's office.

Residence is residence, and business is business.

We did work very hard to establish this and maintain this.

There was a problem with a Chabad or two, because the people living in the area were not originall frum, and did not need to be within walking distance to a shul.So, along comes a Chabad shaliach and buys a home right on a residential block, and causes problems. Noise late at night. Cars not parked properly, due to no parking lot, etc.,

Another one was a Chabad shaliach renting a store which was not zoned for a house of worship, and did not have adequate parking for it.

Due to the laws prohibitting anti-religious stuff, they both won.

But... it was not easy, and it left many mouths with bitter tastes.But, in both cases, the people attending services were residents of the area. This meant that the protesting neighbors had to deal with their neighbors saying, "It is okay, we do want it, etc.," Also, there they were mostly baalei teshuva. So, when they bought, they did not intend to go to shul, then along came Chabad, and .... well you know...

But, if you are moving to a community and are not doing kiruv work, it is by far best to try to figure a way to not "Buck the system" and cause problems.

Unfortunately, people coming from up North, from the older communities where nobody upholds the zoning laws that do exist, don't even think about that when they come down and buy property and sometimes get ticked off when they are told they can't do this or they can't do that.

So, though I am in favor of the Toshe Rebbe's being here. And he is a great bracha to Broward County, I do understand the other side as well.

Also, it is possible that when they bought him that home, their idea is that it would be a quiet retreat for him, as he is fragile and ailing, may Hashem grant him a refua shlaima.

But with someone of his greatness, it is hard to hide him away. People want to come to him. The quiet minyanim will grow. People will come for brochos. A yeshiva from NMB came to him for brochos recently. This will continue, and grow as people get to know he is here.

I daven to Hashem that we are still battling this issue, and that we can get in to see him 20 years from now, and be zoiche to hear his holy voice in tefillah.

46

Apr 02, 2009 at 10:26 AMPMO Says:

Milhouse: The people have the right to complain whether we agree or not. FL is not NY. In FL, it is illegal to operate a "house of worship" in a residential neighborhood without proper permits. Some small shuls have gotten away with using the term "prayer group" or "study group", but it never lasts. Once too many people start showing up, crowding the streets with parked cars (most streets in FL are not designed for much parking without blocking the roadway), or making too much noise, they get forced out.

You point out that in hilchos shcheinim, neighbours have no right to complain about a melamed, a shul, a beis medrash... The complaints here are rarely about the actual davening or learning in the house, but rather the complete disregard for the community. Just because you have the right BE there, does not mean you have the right to trample on the standards and practices of the community. If they kept it quiet, parked their cars outside the community, and did not force themselves on everyone, there would not have been a problem. If they are having the noise-equivalent of a loud fraternity party every motzei shabbos, I understand why nobody wants them.

A chillul H" that is made, even while being oseik b'mitzvoh, is still a chillul H".

Why was this community picked for him? Clearly this was a bad choice. There are plenty of more appropriate communities out there in FL that would be thrilled to have this gadol and all the ruach that comes along with him.

47

Apr 02, 2009 at 10:10 AMmoron Says:

“
Go look in hilchos shcheinim. Neighbours have no right to complain about a melamed, a shul, a beis medrash, or anything of that sort. The torah and avodah being complained of is more important than their sleep. ”

48

Apr 02, 2009 at 09:52 AMAnonymous Says:

“
Way to go Mr. Stewart, he's from the only Tzadikim left in this generation and whoever "Tchepers" with him is playing with fire ”

i dont think mr stewarts stand is alturistic i think he realizes at the end of the day that our country protects and appreciates frredom of religion hence it would be a lost battle costing the city $$ and lose at the end in any case

51

Apr 02, 2009 at 09:40 AMSatmar Man Says:

The Toshe Rebbe, SHLITA, is one of the Tzadikai Hador.Any place he chooses to live is not a backwater. No matter what it was or may have been in the past, it will no longer be. Watch and see, Ft Lauderdale area, I believe they call it Broward County, will now grow into, even faster than it has been, into a mokom Torah, mokom Yirah, and mokom Bracha.It is already known to be a mokom Ahavas Yisroel. I have visited Rav Aron Lieberman's shul in Inverrary, the shul they talked about above. They are being honest.In fact, if I remember correctly, it is Congregation Ahavas Yisroel, and I remember thinking they mean it there.

Now Broward will have the Toshe Rebbe on one side, and Rav Aron Lieberman on the other side. Two Torah-Strong foci.

They tell me there are yeshivos, and seminaries also, and Mikvuos around the county

52

Apr 02, 2009 at 09:37 AMMilhouse Says:

“
You might want to familiarize yourself with the concept of zoning laws and other governmental restrictions on the use of private property. In many areas, one actually cannot just decide to use one's residence as a regular place of public congregation or as a prayer hall. Perhaps you live in a municipality with very lax property use laws, but that would be an exception compared to most populated areas. ”

It doesn't matter. In any area, you can have company over. And if you can have a poker game, you can have a minyan. Does this neighbour who complained not have a Christmas party, or people over for Thanksgiving?

53

Apr 02, 2009 at 09:39 AMMilhouse Says:

“
The heilege rebbe does not play poker or any card games so I assume you are joking. If he does have a minyan, siyum mitzvah or hold forth at a tish on shabbos, his "guests" must be respectful of the neighbors and not park to block their driveways or make too much noise. ”

He has the right to have any kind of party he likes in his home. Poker, birthday, Xmas, whatever. Therefore he can have a shabbos tish also. And the people can make the normal noise that a large number of people naturally make.

Nobody is blocking anybody's driveway; I can't imagine where you got that from.

54

Apr 02, 2009 at 09:42 AMMilhouse Says:

“
You both are obviously talking about Rav Aron Lieberman's shul on 44th St. in Inverrary. For those of you who don't know where Inverrary is, it is a town within a town, sort of, in Lauderhill, FL.

Yes, Rav Aron Lieberman is a talmid chochum, and av beis din of the ORB, and rosh yeshiva of the smicha kollel.

We also have another unique bracha. We have a genuinly GOOD Chazzan, real chazzan, who is also a talmid chochom, and nice guy, Rav Yossi Leibovics (yes, son of the Chazzan from Montreal)

But what that first guy wrote is true. People get along here.Housing is VERY affordable.Cost of living is low.Streimels friends with kippot serugot.That guy with the white socks taught me that chassidim are friendly people. Who knew?

But, yes, Aron Lieberman's shul is worth moving to Florida for.Oh, most of the new couples who have moved here during the past 4 years are couples in their 20's

Definately, a young kehilla with lots of kids and friendliness.

Oh, let's see what else we can brag about...one of our younger married men is in Law School.Our kehilla contains doctors, lawyers, accountants, computer IT pros, mashgichim, artists, used car salesmen, and almost every form of earning a living, as well as people sitting and learning.

You will almost always find people sitting here and learning, and during the day here the sounds of kids in our pre-school playing in the adjacent park, or our bochurim in our Semicha kolell learing a Shach or Taz.

Politically we vary from Long-haired Berkeley Liberals, to Rush Conservatives... and they get along too. weird.... but nice.

Backwater? Maybe it is the Ahavas Yisroel here that makes us a "Backwater"... hmmmm

55

Apr 02, 2009 at 10:38 AMMilhouse Says:

“
I don't disagree with you, it's just that of all the places in all of S. FL. he has to choose one that will have to have a battle later on down the road ”

And who says he wouldn't have the same battle wherever he went? These battles go on any time frumme yidden start moving into a place where they weren't before, and naturally make minyonim in their homes (because where else should they have them?)

57

Apr 02, 2009 at 11:22 AMPMO Says:

“
He has the right to have any kind of party he likes in his home. Poker, birthday, Xmas, whatever. Therefore he can have a shabbos tish also. And the people can make the normal noise that a large number of people naturally make.

Nobody is blocking anybody's driveway; I can't imagine where you got that from. ”

Milhouse: You really are missing the real point here. In my neighborhood, if I am having a party (Purim, etc), that will be big, or loud or run late at night, I tell my neighbors. As an occasional thing, there is no problem. If this is happening EVERY motzei shabbos or even more frequently that that, it is NOT okay. This community has standards and practices that they expect residents to follow. It is a Chiul H" to disregard the people who already live there.

If it were just 10 or 12 guys davening on shabbos it would go completely unnoticed. Lets not compare the two.

The expectations of behavior in suburbia in general are not the same as in Brooklyn. The rules are different and everyone is expected to follow them.

The same way we would not want xian concerts taking place on the streets outside our homes, there are those who don't want to hear us either.

A leibedik tish that spills out into the street is, unfortunately, not everyone's idea of a good event in their community. That has to be respected.

There are already more heimishe communities here in FL that would have been more appropriate and welcoming of this.

58

Apr 02, 2009 at 10:49 AMMilhouse Says:

“
Milhouse: The people have the right to complain whether we agree or not. FL is not NY. In FL, it is illegal to operate a "house of worship" in a residential neighborhood without proper permits. Some small shuls have gotten away with using the term "prayer group" or "study group", but it never lasts. Once too many people start showing up, crowding the streets with parked cars (most streets in FL are not designed for much parking without blocking the roadway), or making too much noise, they get forced out.

You point out that in hilchos shcheinim, neighbours have no right to complain about a melamed, a shul, a beis medrash... The complaints here are rarely about the actual davening or learning in the house, but rather the complete disregard for the community. Just because you have the right BE there, does not mean you have the right to trample on the standards and practices of the community. If they kept it quiet, parked their cars outside the community, and did not force themselves on everyone, there would not have been a problem. If they are having the noise-equivalent of a loud fraternity party every motzei shabbos, I understand why nobody wants them.

A chillul H" that is made, even while being oseik b'mitzvoh, is still a chillul H".

Why was this community picked for him? Clearly this was a bad choice. There are plenty of more appropriate communities out there in FL that would be thrilled to have this gadol and all the ruach that comes along with him.

”

Didn't you read the article? "The city looked into allegations of parking and garbage code violations, and found none, he said." And why did they look into it in the first place? What made them think there would be any violations? Obviously the neighbours lied and invented claims. The Tosher are apparently being good neighbours, but the rebbe is now a resident and is entitled to have people over. And they're entitled to have a prayer group or a study group, just as they're entitled to have a weekly poker party or whatever.

We're long used to such claims from goyim (or, worse, non-O yidden) who will stop at nothing to stop their area from becoming "Jewish" or "black-hat". Kidduh levono once a month becomes outdoor stomping; if the lights are left on over Shabbos the neighbours say they can't sleep and that it fades their curtains; if flour for matzah-baking is kept in a room that used to be a toilet, they call it unsanitary; a nearly-invisible string for an eruv becomes an environmental blight; etc. We're used to it, and we know what lies behind it.

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Apr 02, 2009 at 01:17 PMmoshe Says:

I live on the block. The Rebbe has gone back to Tash and may return after Tishrie. Only some of the nieghbors are up in arms, many are fine and have no issue with his presence. Parking is a bit of an issue, but it will get sorted out. Your comments are quite commical. Gut Yom Tov

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Apr 02, 2009 at 01:30 PMPMO Says:

“
Didn't you read the article? "The city looked into allegations of parking and garbage code violations, and found none, he said." And why did they look into it in the first place? What made them think there would be any violations? Obviously the neighbours lied and invented claims. The Tosher are apparently being good neighbours, but the rebbe is now a resident and is entitled to have people over. And they're entitled to have a prayer group or a study group, just as they're entitled to have a weekly poker party or whatever.

We're long used to such claims from goyim (or, worse, non-O yidden) who will stop at nothing to stop their area from becoming "Jewish" or "black-hat". Kidduh levono once a month becomes outdoor stomping; if the lights are left on over Shabbos the neighbours say they can't sleep and that it fades their curtains; if flour for matzah-baking is kept in a room that used to be a toilet, they call it unsanitary; a nearly-invisible string for an eruv becomes an environmental blight; etc. We're used to it, and we know what lies behind it. ”

Sorry Milhouse... Usually I agree with you. But as a FL suburbanite myself, I understand where they are coming from. If these people wanted to live next to a shul or a beis medrash they would have bought property next to one. It has nothing to do with "Jewish" or "Black Hat" or anything else.

In my neighborhood, such a place would be shut down quick. We built our shul on the road just outside the subdivision in a multipurpose zoning area. There are houses on either side... we tore down 2 houses to build the shul. Those people knew they were buying on a street that has commercial traffic and noise and there has not been even ONE complaint. Why? Because we follow the rules. We are loud, we do outdoor concerts and such and nobody complains.

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Apr 02, 2009 at 04:54 PMSOFL Says:

“
Well said! Florida (most of it anyway) has become a beautiful mixture of various types... everyone a yiroh shomayim... there is ahavas Torah... ahavas Yisroel and far less of the self-serving political issues like in the NY ghettos.

Those of us who ran away from NY socialism (bordering on communism now!) know how good life can be without the thumb of the government on us every day. Since moving here I work half as hard for twice as much. I have more time to spend learning than ever before. We pay no state income tax... my property taxes are $3500... car insurance is VERY cheap... and in most Jewish areas, crime rates are incredibly low. AND we have no "alternate side of the street parking". The best thing about it all is that, for the most part, we are like minded in that we wanted nothing more to do with the politics, socialism and sinas chinam in NY. ”

There is plenty of sinas chinim - sinas Torah and sinas habrios in Florida, plenty of frum politics non stop machloikes ,krum and krumer cliques and couples behaiving very badly . If it was not so pretty and warm here it would be the worst place on earth for a "Frum" Jew to live.

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Apr 02, 2009 at 09:59 PMAnonymous Says:

“
There is plenty of sinas chinim - sinas Torah and sinas habrios in Florida, plenty of frum politics non stop machloikes ,krum and krumer cliques and couples behaiving very badly . If it was not so pretty and warm here it would be the worst place on earth for a "Frum" Jew to live.

PS: my property taxes are 14K on a 4 bed 3 bath 2k sq ft house ”

Funny how different people have different experiences.

I live in Broward, and have experienced ZERO sinah. It is this very Ahavas Yisroel which has re-energized my ruchnios, and frumkeit.

I am not sure where you live, but to pay such high taxes, you must be in a very expensive neighborhood.... in a million dollar home. Certainly not in my community. You are more likely in Aventura, in Miami Dade County, or some place like that.... expensive homes. But, as far as how people there behave, I have no idea.

I know the shul where I daven everyone gets along.To say there never has been a disagreement would be silly. That does not exist in reality. But, overall, we are very peaceful and understanding of each other.

We are not rich here. Larger 3br Single family homes with pools are in the $250,000 - $350,000 range! Town homes, almost brand new are less than half of that, and condos much much less.

The couples here behave nicely, with no "krumkeit"That is not to say there NEVER have been scandals. There is no shul in BP or Willi which can say that either. But, there is very little of it. The only one I was aware of was about 4 years ago. The people involved are no longer part of the shul.

We have a good, nice, kosher life here. I have seen no politics, and I am very involved in the shul.

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Apr 02, 2009 at 10:33 PMAnonymous Says:

I have been to see the Rebbe in Ft. Lauderdale and the house is beautiful in a lovely area and there was no garbage, and the Rebbe's staff were very careful to point out to visitors not to park in certain areas and to be respectful and hold noise down. It was a great honour to see the Tzaddik and receive a Brocha from him. I met Yidden from all aspects, Spheradim, Litvish, Heimishe all coming to see this great Tzaddik. I have never been to a more respectful and well behaved scenario.

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Apr 03, 2009 at 01:06 AMme Says:

It actuallygoes back a lot further than 2005. Thirty years ago the city of Miami beach told Chaim Gross he couldn't conduct prayer services in his house. It went to the supreme court and the city lost.

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Apr 03, 2009 at 12:20 AMrachel saidi Says:

Nothing strange about the Fort Lauderdale, FL attitude. If you are old enough, you might remember how neither Miami nor its hotels were hospitable to Jews in the 40s-early 60s. "No Jews and Dogs" were allowed.

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Apr 04, 2009 at 10:42 PMHerrele Says:

“
The rebba himself needs peace and quiet in other parts of Florida it would be way noisier and busier. I am glad there wasn't anything they could hold against them. KOLHAKOVOD. It became popular to complain about the jewish people no matter where they are including th chassanah halls and so forth. As of today America is still a free country accomodating every body who is legally allowed to be here, They don't complain about other noises such as teenagers and so forth. It isn't like the rebba is living there all year. Hashem just keeps testing and testing us till MOSSIACHs time. May the rebba and our generation live to see him come right away. ”

my understanding is that the only complaint was in regards to noise. Victoria Park is an extremely quiet area and too much noise too much times is what made some neighbors upset. I don't think there is any other issue, neither parking nor garbage, I was personally there and was amazed by the level of professionalism the whole operation was conducted in.

Noticeably all the neighbors that I came across and communicated with -some as little as eye contact, others, we went into a full conversation - where all very friendly and welcoming, of course there are always exceptions, there was one neighbor (Lamborghini in driveway) wanted to know how many rabbits we had to kill for each SHTREIMEL!

over all, I think there are no serious issues with the Rebbes presence except enough to fill those empty Newspaper columns.

Dec 23, 2009 at 09:12 PMHiemisj Says:

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Dec 31, 2009 at 07:42 PM7777777 Says:

I was there 2 weeks ago for a shabbas and i must say that i spoke to the neighbors around the Rabbi's house, asking them what they are saying to such a special Rabbi here on there street, one neighbor replied back to me that " This Rabbi brought light to our street & neighborhood, We feel more SAFE" i was shocked to here that from a non Jewish man, another neighbor said to me, that his wife and kids run to the window front when the Rabbi walks by, they just like to see this Holy spiritual Rabbi. B'H its a Kidesh Hashem, for the Ft Lauderdale City.

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Jul 15, 2010 at 04:10 AMkevin gabrielle hercules Says:

Hello everyone, here’s writting a neighbour, that lives right opposite the house of the rabbi, i live on the address of 401 NE 11 TH AVE, and i am writting here not only what’s on my mind, but what’s on more neighbour’s of the street’s mind, this rabbi has brought light to our street, we feel so happy every day we see such an holy angel, were very lucy that he’s on our street with us, i must say all the people that are around him always ask us if every thing is ok, they are such special people, we want him back.