scott123

No, I guess I'm more inclined to just make the best of what's typically available to me; similar to how I make almost all of my NY style pizzas in a grill, rather than in my oven, even though it's impossible to get anywhere near enough top heat in the grill.

I'm veering a bit further off topic here, but Kenji's experiments with the Kettle Pizza went a long way in questioning the importance of thermal mass in an oven ceiling. Because of the danger of melting, I'm typically pretty aluminum foil phobic when it comes to oven mods, but, in a grill setting, you're never going to hit 1100, so I would play around with some kind of low, heavy duty aluminum foil ceiling (inside the lid). Put a couple holes in the center of the foil so the hot air flows up and around the pizza. Ideally, where the foil meets the sides of the lid you'll want it pretty air tight, so you're forcing everything up the middle.

Hi Scott: I see you reccomend oil on an earlier post on this thread. I was raised with just water, yeast, salt, flour, and prefer it this way over adding oil- more crisp on the outside crust. I run my blodgetts at 570 which is about the limit for even cooking top/bottom with a nice crisp on the crust. I know ther are a ton of variations on the NY Style pie. Are you dead set on oil in your dough or just responding to the original post question? I never tried soybean oil. I have used Olive oil. I save my soybean oil for making Jimmy Buffs hot dogs . Walter

scott123

At least, personally. As far as the authenticity of oil goes, that's a difficult question. The most vocal anti-oil delegation is the legendary coal places. Patsy's, Lombardi's, Grimaldi's, John's, Tottono's- none of those guys will touch oil. It's important to bear in mind that when talking about NY style pizza, I don't include coal in that spectrum. For me, coal is pre-NY style pizza or Neo Neapolitan. Once you start looking at the (for the most part) less legendary NY style slice places, I don't have any first hand experience with formulas, but, based upon how oil effects crumb and appearance, I'm relatively certain that the vast majority of them use at least some oil. There is a quantity of oil, that, as you approach it (4% to 5%), the oil becomes discernible in the crust. I've never witness that in a NY area pizza. A little oil (1% to 3%) seems to be the norm, though.

But oil definitely promotes more even browning- and, in my experience, doesn't seem to impact crust crispiness all that much. In fact, for a while I thought oil might actually promote crispiness, but now I'm not certain. Deep frying seems to produce crunchy food.

The extreme of oil is the kind of golden brown you see with chain pizza. I'm not emulating/striving for that. But there is a middle ground where you get a bit more even browning with oil. That's, for the most part, what I grew up with.

Since NY was born from coal, and coal was no oil, I think it's safe to assume that as you go back in time, no oil was more prevalent. Perhaps, since you pre-date me by a couple years, no oil pies were more the norm when you were growing up here.

[I think you answered at least one of my questions while I was typing, Scott. Regardless, I'm gonna leave my post as originally written.]

I was wondering a little about what Walter said, too, Scott. One thing I considered was that maybe you recommended using 2% oil specifically because we're talking about All Trumps here. As I said, I use about the same oil percentage in my NY style dough, but that may be specifically because I use All Trumps. Whenever I start making pizza again, I intend to get a bag of slightly lower protein flour than All Trumps--something from Scott's list of good NY style flours--and try doing dough without oil for a while.

Walter, oil is one of the things I thought about as I ate the two slices you gave me. I think I already knew your dough has no oil before you gave me the slices, and I think the slices you gave me were made of the lower-protein flour (Full Strength?). I can't say I noticed any toughness in your crust, which is something I would say was very present in my All Trumps crusts before I started adding a little oil (in addition to cutting the mix time considerably).

scott123

Ryan, I think that I answered your questions, but one thing that I'd like to add is that, at the bake times were talking about here, oil is really not a big deal. One of us could probably detect the difference between a 0% and 2% oil crust, but I highly doubt most of the public can.

We're not really talking about huge differences in the dough- a little softer and some more even/less splotchy browning- no more than that.

When you get into coal oven bake times, oil becomes a much bigger deal. At that speed, oil can accelerate browning so much that the crust can burn if you're not watching closely (even closer than you're normally watch a coal baked pie). This is why Neapolitans avoid oil in their dough so religiously. 4-7 minute bakes, though, are different animals. In this universe, I personally think oil helps a tiny bit- but it's really neither here nor there- and I would never point the finger at anyone who eschewed it. There are some aspects to NY style pizza that are authentic and inauthentic, but this isn't one of them.

Btw, Walter, thanks for the 570 figure- that's good to know. What bake time are you seeing at 570? About 6 minutes?

Scott: I will have to add a bit of oil to my dough and see what I think. It has been years since I added oil. I don't know how long our bake time is. I just take it out when its done. I will have to time one tomorrow. I get even browning without any oil. I am very sensitive to oil in dough. We do a Italian bread I learned from my mother with fresh rosemary, roasted garlic, and potatoes. It has very little oil in it but I can really notice it in texture.

Ryan: I am a cold pizza lover and like it to be easy on the teeth with toughness. I find when I use AT less kneading helps - 7 minutes. I also use cold water for 48 hour ferments. I take the dough out 3-4 hours before use and there is not any noticable toughness in the finished pie. If the pie snaps back on the peel and requires lots of additional stretching before going in the oven I can count on the dough being tough. This is usually due to over mixing. I have learned to back way off AT. With that approach it is fine to use. I have to go 40 miles to RD for FS so we run out regularly and use AT which comes on our weekly GFS truck delivery. We use AT for our bagels and mix it 10 minutes. With FS I use, at this time of year, straight cold tap water and it stays in the cooler 2-4 days. Friday dough is real good on monday. I take it out of the cooler 3-4 hours before use. It stretches easy and keeps it size on the peel. That is a 10 minute mix on the hobart.

Since joining this forum I have become a lot more aware of temps. I took one today on a batch of FS before it went in the cooler. It was at 74 degrees. That is a temp I like for 2-3 day ferments. I hear 80 hear a lot but that is to warm for me and the dough starts to blow out quicker once out of the cooler. We get good rise on the bakes at 70-75 degrees. On my french bread I like it around 80 degrees after kneading is done.

scott123

I am a cold pizza lover and like it to be easy on the teeth with toughness.

Me too!

I've never had any issue with AT with a pie that's still warm, but, once it's cold, if I kneaded it too much at the onset, I have a tenderness issue. The more that I worked with AT, the more that I found that my ideal kneading window was very small- too much kneading and the crust would be tough, but too little, the dough wouldn't be mixed enough and I'd end up with wet/dry areas of the dough that would have a tendency to either tear or get stuck on the peel. The target was just too small and it was causing a lot of stress. Once I switched to Spring King/Full Strength, that all went away. I've got a target as big as a house. I like to underknead for other reasons, but, it's good to know that if I knead too much, my texture won't suffer.

One caveat: my issues with AT most likely have a bake time component. When I've worked with AT with weaker ovens and longer bakes, it's had less tendency to be tough. This is probably why AT is popular around here- nobody does a quick bake any more.

Scott: You are awakening all kinds of old taste memories for me - thanks! Being gone from NJ since the late 70s' as a resident, it is easy to forget the pies of my youth. I wish I could get FS via GFS. I am going to contact my rep and see if he can get it for me regularly. They are hit and miss with GM flours. I tried to get Harvest King from them as a special order and was told I would have to buy like 150 bags minimum. Conversely, I special order GM stone ground fine whole wheat flour from them with no bag minimum. As you have mentioned, the deck ovens are no good at full cranked temps. I wonder how places like Difara's in NYC claim to bake with ovens wide open. They are standard design deck ovens from what I can tell. I have never been there so have no idea if that statement is true. I have worked with BP ovens and the top/bottom heat control doesn't help with even top/bottom cooking at high temps. I spent a couple days with the BP forno classico with 120k btu's underneath and 20k btu's on the back wall along with stone lined ceiling, still would not do even bakes when cranked all the way. The top/bottom air controls didn't seem to help any. The dough I was using was not mine and contained oil/sugar and the doughs were not up to being stretched thin. So maybe with my dough, no oil/sugar, those ovens would work cranked. I would like to bring a box of my dough balls, cheese, sauce, and try it in those ovens. They will be shut down from Nov. 20th - thanksgiving so maybe they will let me play around with them some. One day I got a talkative employee at Star tell me they bake at 450 degrees. I have tried to do their style pie with the pan/oil at my normal temp bu the bottoms always burned. I did one last week at 450 on the bottom oven and finished it on the top at 570ish. It came out great but I know they don't rotate ovens. I think the 500 degree temp is the norm for many shops and some push it to the temp I do. I have to watch things closely once over 550 degrees but the final dough result with the blodgett 1000's is even, crisp, and soft on the inside. I am going to make a batch of dough with oil in it and set one oven to my normal temp and one to 500 and see what happens. I say I am going to do this and I will but I don't know when. Our place is so busy everyday I rarely get time to experiment. Today we made 6,000 cookies, 600 bagels, 20 pizzas, and 30 bags of dog biscuits. Tomorrow looks a bit slower and if I can I will make a small batch and let it ferment a couple days. Walter

As for Dom DeMarco at DiFara's, it has always been my understanding that his deck ovens were modified to operate at a higher temperature than normal. I believe that his son mentioned something along those lines in a video in which he was interviewed.

As for Dom DeMarco at DiFara's, it has always been my understanding that his deck ovens were modified to operate at a higher temperature than normal. I believe that his son mentioned something along those lines in a video in which he was interviewed.

Thanks, Peter, that quote from Ron makes a lot of sense. The only thing that I'd add is that, based upon the increased power of vintage ovens that I've come across, I have a theory that when deck ovens first emerged after the war, they were not that much weaker/the bake times were not that much longer than coal. If that was true, than I don't think the move to incorporate oil was that sudden, and most likely occurred over a period of years- and possibly even decades.

Re; DiFaras, if you google 'difara upskirt' and 'difara undercrust' you'll see a fairly substantial number of (imo) burnt undercrusts. Based on this, I believe that Dom modified his oven to work at a higher temperature (most likely a thermostat mod), but didn't take steps to correct the typical heat imbalance that occurs in gas deck ovens at higher temps.

Dom talks about his ovens reaching 1000 degrees and I've heard other numbers like 800 degrees being thrown around by some reputable sources. The oven is old, and probably a bit more powerful than most, but I think these publicized specs are driven more by mystique than by fact- that a legendary pizzeria must have a legendary superpowerful oven.

At the end of the day, I don't think there's anything too special about DiFara's oven. It's just a fairly typical old gas oven, that, unmodified, went to 650, and, with a thermostat mod, hits the standard thermostat mod temp of 700-725. From the photos of the pizzas and the videos I've seen, I'm relatively certain that's what they're working with.

Logged

scott123

Walter, the top/bottom heat controls, as you've figured out, are pretty much worthless for pizza. By their nature, gas deck ovens, because the burner is below the stone, are almost always going to favor bottom heat over the top. The top/bottom heat controls are just sliders that open and close the hole going from the bottom chamber to the top. They're not made to add to the top heat, just limit it by closing the hole. This ability to decrease top heat might be beneficial at lower temps, such as those for baking bread, but it's useless for high heat pizza.

I guess, in theory, it could be possible to build an oven with enough deflection that the top heat is too powerful at pizza baking temps, and these top/bottom heat controls might make an actual difference by limiting the heat going to the top, but, in practice, I've never seen an oven with sufficient deflection to fit this scenario.

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I spent a couple days with the BP forno classico with 120k btu's underneath and 20k btu's on the back wall along with stone lined ceiling, still would not do even bakes when cranked all the way

That's disappointing to hear, Walter. Considering the cost of that oven, for people purchasing it looking for fast bake times, that's got to hurt. I think a big player in that scenario is the deck material. It's most likely cordierite. The marsals have a top/bottom heat balance advantage in that regard because they're using lower conductivity fibrament. I know of no one using the Marsal MBs cranked, but I'm certain that they keep their balance at a higher temp than the BP FC just due to hearth material alone.

I know that, at this point, you're not in a position to make recommendations at the place with the PB FC, but, should that change, you might suggest either fibrament or possibly even Whitacre Greer firebricks, which, according to their specs, have even lower conductivity than fibrament.

I know we've talked about stones for your oven before- I have a hunch fibrament might help you go higher than 570, but your ancient asbestos stones are a bit of a wild card, so I can't say for certain.

Oil/sugar makes no impact on heat balance. If the oil/sugar doughs baked up too quickly on the bottom at the university, your non-oil dough will do the same.

You're on your own, for now, with Star. Embarrassingly enough, I have yet to go there. Soon. Even after a trip, that style is way outside my wheelhouse. I think Adam Kuban is making inroads on bar pizza- not Star specifically, but you might pick up some things from his blog:

Full Strength, by the way, is not in any way what you'd consider to be specialty flour. As you know General Mills is absolutely massive, and, although FS doesn't do the same business as AT, FS should be widely available. I can see GFS not carrying it, but any distributor worth their salt should have no problem getting it for you.

Thanks for that info Pete and Scott. I timed a pizza today. I did it after we had run 8 pies through one oven (4-18" pies each run will fit each oven). I clocked it at 6:38 seconds. I know the first pie run goes a bit faster(forgot to time until the 2nd run) but the recovery time on our ovens is pretty good if you don't open the door more than needed. The 6:38 pie had an even light browning on the crust and the underside not burned but browned. It had a crunch to it and soft on the inside. The temperature gun I had read 566 degrees. We are in a slight lull and they have been empty for about 5 minutes. I forgot my camera. walter

scott123

Walter, that timing is as I expected. Thanks for taking the time to clock that.

I know you're very happy with your present product- as you should be, and I don't think the oven mods we've discussed (lowered ceiling/different stones) and the possibly 1 or 2 minute trim in baking time those mods will produce are going to change your pizzas dramatically, but, imo, it's worth playing around with, just to see the difference. You'll lose some crunch- which might end up being unacceptable for you, but you also might gain a little more puff.

I know Norma is at about the same bake time at her stand, and, while, at home, she's done faster bakes that she's enjoyed, personally, in her Blackstone. That being said, she doesn't want to mess with her oven- and I can fully understand that.

Walter, that timing is as I expected. Thanks for taking the time to clock that.

I know you're very happy with your present product- as you should be, and I don't think the oven mods we've discussed (lowered ceiling/different stones) and the possibly 1 or 2 minute trim in baking time those mods will produce are going to change your pizzas dramatically, but, imo, it's worth playing around with, just to see the difference. You'll lose some crunch- which might end up being unacceptable for you, but you also might gain a little more puff.

I know Norma is at about the same bake time at her stand, and, while, at home, she's done faster bakes that she's enjoyed, personally, in her Blackstone. That being said, she doesn't want to mess with her oven- and I can fully understand that.

Scott: I will You should try star. It is just down the road from you. It is not NY but very unique IMO. Go with the cheese. Thanks for the link. I thought my recent attempt at a star pie was close. Close enough. I am not into making a new dough specific for it. Our dough worked fine. Walter

Scott: I talked to my GFS rep and they do not carry FS. GFS stinks overall. Their prices are high and the availability of stuff is so swiss cheese it is frustrating. The 2 flours I really want, Harvest King and FS, are not available in less than 50 case orders. Heck that is bigger than our walk in storeroom RD is 40 miles away. I am contacting sysco and see what they carry. The asbestos in my oven stones creates better heat retention/displacement than the new materials. I have heard from some oldtimers that the old stones in my ovens are worth their weight in gold to some. I turned the ovens off an hour ago and they are still hot enough to cook a pie. I believe the stones have a lot to do with not having to rotate pies. We get pretty much even browning with no rotation. There is not a lot of variation of temperature within the oven when it is up and running to temp. Walter

scott123

Walter, asbestos definitely has thermodynamic properties that nothing else can match, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if those were one-of-a-kind stones and highly treasured by those that still have them.

Sysco should have the FS.

Are there any other distributors in your area? Where are the pizzerias and bakeries getting their flour from? You may not have huge flour demands, but you should still be going through enough of it to deal with your typical mom & pop pizzeria distribution channel. Is there a Dawn near you? What about U.S. Food? If you have inclinations towards eventually opening a shop, you can't start developing relationships with distributors too soon.

It sounds like you have a pretty wide range of flour needs. You definitely want 14% protein flour (AT) for your bagels, and, for most cookies AP (11.8%ish), is fine, but I've found some cookies do better with the delicateness you get from pastry flour, and, if you ever bake pies, you definitely want pastry flour for those. And then there's pizza, which, as I've said, seems happiest around 13% (FS).

What are you using for your cookies now? AP? Since you're going to need AT for bagels anyway, perhaps you could hit the happy 13%ish (FS) place with an AT/something blend. You'd be diluting the bromate in the AT with either AP or pastry, so, ideally you'd want to use pastry, since the lower protein would allow you use to less, but if you had to blend it with AP, AT+AP is still better than AT.

Ideally, sysco will have FS, and that will be that, but the fewer variety of flours you have the less chances there will be for your students to grab the wrong flour by accident.

Scott: All the blodgetts from that era had the asbesctos in them. Most all broke and were replaced with the newer stones. I told the movers that they had to treat those stones like fine china. We use AP flour for cookies, brownies, apple pie crust. Believe it or not we get a light flakey crust with AP and our cookies and brownies are in constant demand. Using real shell eggs, pure vanilla, unsalted butter, cocoa, belguim chocolate, is something that is becoming a rare thing. I have each flour bin labeled and my kids learn which is which. We just starting using Amish stone ground organic whole wheat flour for bagels for Denison University. It looks a lot like our GM whole wheat flour that we use for dog biscuits, and school approved healthy cookies that we sell to our district and Granville school district. That amounts to about 6,000 cookies a week. It took a couple months for the Bon Appetit person who handles the artisan to farmer relations to get with the Amish farmer and have it ground very fine. I hate a 100% whole wheat bagel but it is work and they like it so what the hell.

You would get sick to your stomach if you tried the pizza out here. I have no idea where most people get their stuff. the closest to an a pie I could eat if it was the last food on earth, uses AT. I know the owner. I have a call into Sysco. I will go with them first because they make a huge delivery every week to the central kitchen at our district. They are a reheat/steam/open can operation and make all the food for the district cafeterias and are located about 50 feet from our room. we make a bigger mess everyday than they do because everything they do is frozen or in a can. I can piggyback my small delivery on with theirs for no delivery charge. Luckily I got a grant for a brand new van last year. I take it to Columbus once a month for 7/11, FS, and other stuff that GFS doesn't carry. RD stopped carrying Harvest King so I am hoping Sysco has it. If I do open a small pizzeria here hopefully I will find some distributor that has what I need. Thanks for your support! Walter

Today I made my first batch of dough in a few months. Since I hadn't read this thread in a while, I couldn't remember the numbers that had been discussed here, but I decided to go with 62% hydration, 1.58% oil, and 1.75% salt (with All Trumps flour). I decreased my ADY percentage a hair, from 0.60% to 0.55%, specifically because of some of the things I remember being discussed in this thread.

So anyway, the way my dough turned out, I have to agree with what Scott said in the quoted text. Although I'm sure the dough will feel a little softer by the time I use it, I felt like this dough was almost too stiff for NY style as I scaled and rounded the dough balls.

Since I made three dough balls, I intend to use one dough ball each of the next three days (24 hours, 48 hours, 72 hours). I'm also gonna attempt to make a sauce similar to Walter's sauce, with 7/11, a little oregano, a little garlic, and probably a little dry basil (since I don't have any fresh basil).

For the first time ever, I'm gonna use cheese that has been frozen. I've had a bag of Grande mozzarella in the freezer since about August, and I'm very curious to find out how this cheese turns out compared to the other five bags from the case, which were never frozen. I'll also be using Ezzo GiAntonio pepperoni that has been in the freezer for just as long as the cheese. And unlike how I normally do NY style, I also intend to bake these pizzas in the oven instead of the grill.

I'm excited to make a NY style pizza without also being distracted by making three other styles of pizza at the same time. It's been a long time since I've been able to focus on this style of pizza. I figure I might make one each day until I use up all my cheese.