Do not read this if you are a rapist - Think Atheist2015-03-31T22:05:18Zhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/do-not-read-this-if-you-are-a-rapist?commentId=1982180%3AComment%3A1406824&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=no@Laila Moe -
Do you have evi…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-11-16:1982180:Comment:14068242013-11-16T13:55:11.878ZUnseenhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Unseen
<p><em><strong>@Laila Moe - </strong></em></p>
<p><em><strong>Do you have evidence that proves that "a lot" of women want the traditional role? And by women, I do not only mean cis gendered women. Or is this just your assumption about what women want?</strong></em></p>
<p>I don't need to prove anything as obvious as that a lot of women still prefer traditional sex roles. They prefer to stay home and raise children and be a housewife. From your attitudes, clearly you don't run in those circles,…</p>
<p><em><strong>@Laila Moe - </strong></em></p>
<p><em><strong>Do you have evidence that proves that "a lot" of women want the traditional role? And by women, I do not only mean cis gendered women. Or is this just your assumption about what women want?</strong></em></p>
<p>I don't need to prove anything as obvious as that a lot of women still prefer traditional sex roles. They prefer to stay home and raise children and be a housewife. From your attitudes, clearly you don't run in those circles, but why not drop in on a church on Sunday and ask how many of the moms there would rather be doing something else.</p>
<p>Those same women probably read the bodice-ripper novels and feel a thrill when the male star steals a kiss from the female star.</p>
<p>I don't need to prove anything so obvious. Don't be silly,</p>
<p><em><strong>Yes, some women also like being slapped around and chocked in sex. That does not mean that you can do it to every woman (or man or queer folk) just because some like it... especially NOT without consent.</strong></em></p>
<p>Strawman! I never said anything about it being okay to go around choking women just because some women like it.</p>
<p><em><strong>Again, your argument is not very strong there. Also, you continue to view sex in a heterosexual perspective, and that's not how sex always happens.</strong></em></p>
<p>I presented no argument. I pointed out a fact.</p>
<p><em><strong>Not to mention, this sort of thing is socialized in women from our loverly misogynistic culture (which blatantly promotes rape and wins an oscar for it). Lots of women love their physical abusers to death, just because women love them, that does not make it okay. Some porn stars actually come out and say they love rape, that still does not make it okay. Lots of people love sick things, that does not justify doing sick things to people.</strong></em></p>
<p>One of the easiest ways to dehumanize others is to claim that their opinions don't really belong to them, but rather come from their oppressive overlords who have brainwashed them into believing something you disagree with.</p>
<p><em><strong>If a woman does prefer such things, it should be communicated between the partners before hand and discussed. Then the "stolen kiss" kind of behaviour could be engaged in as a form of role play. But assuming that a woman wants you to kiss her or touch her or insert an object in her body is really wrong and does not justify lack of consent. This "you know you want it" kind of crap is really effed up. Lots of rape victims quote their rapists saying it. It's a really misogynist mentality.</strong></em></p>
<p>I'm not arguing that the rapists are right, but that the current realities of sexual/dating relationships are quite a bit more vague than you are pretending, and that a lot of consent is actually implicit rather than explicit. </p>
<p>You're entitled to your beliefs, but the idea that explicit consent is always needed is an opinion, not a fact. Ethical statemeents express attitudes, not facts.</p>
<p>I can tell you something that I think is a fact and that is that the guy who goes ahead full bore despite rather obviously sincere protests isn't listening to you any more than he's listening to his protesting victim.</p> Leila-Where have i ever once…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-11-16:1982180:Comment:14068932013-11-16T12:30:41.143ZRocky johnhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Rockyjohn
<p>Leila-Where have i ever once said having sex with a woman that was not consensual was not rape?</p>
<p>I am simply arguing against over vague US laws in some states .That law can even be argued to be misogynistic as men who have been drinking, even considerably, are able to consent to sex while a woman cannot give the same consent after even one or two drinks.</p>
<p>Here In the UK the law says that woman have just as much right to consent to having sex while drunk as a man. Obviously if…</p>
<p>Leila-Where have i ever once said having sex with a woman that was not consensual was not rape?</p>
<p>I am simply arguing against over vague US laws in some states .That law can even be argued to be misogynistic as men who have been drinking, even considerably, are able to consent to sex while a woman cannot give the same consent after even one or two drinks.</p>
<p>Here In the UK the law says that woman have just as much right to consent to having sex while drunk as a man. Obviously if they are incapacitated or passed out due to intoxication it is a different story, but that is not what i have been arguing against at all.</p> Do you have evidence that pro…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-11-16:1982180:Comment:14065822013-11-16T07:15:37.815ZLaila Moehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/LailaMoe
<p>Do you have evidence that proves that "a lot" of women want the traditional role? And by women, I do not only mean cis gendered women. Or is this just your assumption about what women want?</p>
<p>Yes, some women also like being slapped around and chocked in sex. That does not mean that you can do it to every woman (or man or queer folk) just because some like it... especially NOT without consent. </p>
<p>Again, your argument is not very strong there. Also, you continue to view sex in a…</p>
<p>Do you have evidence that proves that "a lot" of women want the traditional role? And by women, I do not only mean cis gendered women. Or is this just your assumption about what women want?</p>
<p>Yes, some women also like being slapped around and chocked in sex. That does not mean that you can do it to every woman (or man or queer folk) just because some like it... especially NOT without consent. </p>
<p>Again, your argument is not very strong there. Also, you continue to view sex in a heterosexual perspective, and that's not how sex always happens. </p>
<p>Not to mention, this sort of thing is socialized in women from our loverly misogynistic culture (which blatantly promotes rape and wins an oscar for it). Lots of women love their physical abusers to death, just because women love them, that does not make it okay. Some porn stars actually come out and say they love rape, that still does not make it okay. Lots of people love sick things, that does not justify doing sick things to people. </p>
<p>If a woman does prefer such things, it should be communicated between the partners before hand and discussed. Then the "stolen kiss" kind of behaviour could be engaged in as a form of role play. But assuming that a woman wants you to kiss her or touch her or insert an object in her body is really wrong and does not justify lack of consent. This "you know you want it" kind of crap is really effed up. Lots of rape victims quote their rapists saying it. It's a really misogynist mentality.</p>
<p></p> @Belle Rose - You've heard "s…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-11-16:1982180:Comment:14066282013-11-16T01:19:49.443ZUnseenhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Unseen
<p>@Belle Rose - You've heard "statutory rape," I'm sure. That's sex with a person under the age of sexual consent, which can be as low as 14 in the US, but more typically is 18. "Statutory rape" means basically "rape according to the law" as opposed to violent/assaultive rape.</p>
<p>@Belle Rose - You've heard "statutory rape," I'm sure. That's sex with a person under the age of sexual consent, which can be as low as 14 in the US, but more typically is 18. "Statutory rape" means basically "rape according to the law" as opposed to violent/assaultive rape.</p> No, Rocky, we ideally only co…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-11-15:1982180:Comment:14066162013-11-15T23:06:51.152ZUnseenhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Unseen
<p>No, Rocky, we ideally only convict people who meet the applicable standards of proof as determined by a jury.</p>
<p>No, Rocky, we ideally only convict people who meet the applicable standards of proof as determined by a jury.</p> Perhaps people could solve a…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-11-15:1982180:Comment:14064852013-11-15T23:05:13.596ZUnseenhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Unseen
<p>Perhaps people could solve a lot of problems by doing all kinds of things, but what to do, then, about the fact that they don't find talking about it in a serious way a positive addition to the presexual experience?</p>
<p>I suspect a lot of women still want the traditional role of having a kiss stolen followed by some perfunctory pro forma protests that they don't really mean. If the male took these protests seriously, it might even spoil the situation for these women.</p>
<p>Certainly,…</p>
<p>Perhaps people could solve a lot of problems by doing all kinds of things, but what to do, then, about the fact that they don't find talking about it in a serious way a positive addition to the presexual experience?</p>
<p>I suspect a lot of women still want the traditional role of having a kiss stolen followed by some perfunctory pro forma protests that they don't really mean. If the male took these protests seriously, it might even spoil the situation for these women.</p>
<p>Certainly, that's not the way you view it, but I guarantee there are plenty such women out there.</p> And it can happen between a m…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-11-15:1982180:Comment:14064842013-11-15T22:53:12.156ZLaila Moehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/LailaMoe
<p>And it can happen between a man and another man... and a woman with a penis and a man... and so on. Talking about sex in a gendered manner (especially about rape) really closes our minds to a lot. I really think you need to look more into gender identity and sexual and romantic orientations before making judgement. </p>
<p>Having any drunk consented sex is not necessarily rape, but it can be if it was <strong>unwanted</strong>. </p>
<p style="text-align: left;">Again you are assuming that…</p>
<p>And it can happen between a man and another man... and a woman with a penis and a man... and so on. Talking about sex in a gendered manner (especially about rape) really closes our minds to a lot. I really think you need to look more into gender identity and sexual and romantic orientations before making judgement. </p>
<p>Having any drunk consented sex is not necessarily rape, but it can be if it was <strong>unwanted</strong>. </p>
<p style="text-align: left;">Again you are assuming that people get up after having sex and decide to sue their partners. Why do we always look at victims as if they were the manipulative aggressors? How often do rape charges even happen? How often are innocent men charged with rape? Well let's look at all the lovely college rape cases since 2010 and look at how they are portrayed in the media. It seems to make you think that all convicted rapists must be innocent (at least the ones who had a potentially good career because they come from upper class white families?lol). However, if you looked at the case you'd realize that it is one fucked up situation... like the case where a passed out girl was raped and recorded and people actually laughed and watched and tweeted and called her a slut for being raped with she was passed out... this is in the US. I don't know much about the UK. So this whole idea of rape victims has got to go away. Chances are, if unwanted sex happened, the victim will not even want to speak about it. This is factual. Now the chances that an innocent man will be convicted of rape, do exist, but are very slim (and are often due to politicized nature of the judicial system not because rape victims have unequal powers over their rapists... it will just so happen that most of these men are from lower class, the victim was white or have a criminal record or come from a marginalized area or group). So it is very unlikely that people will abuse this law to get at their sex partners... because well, most rape cases are often unrecorded because people do not report them. </p>
<p></p>
<p></p> I'm not sure what you're tryi…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-11-15:1982180:Comment:14065502013-11-15T22:34:55.344ZLaila Moehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/LailaMoe
<p>I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the legal age and consensual sex. Could you please clarify? sorry.</p>
<p>I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the legal age and consensual sex. Could you please clarify? sorry.</p> I'm not accusing you personal…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-11-15:1982180:Comment:14064812013-11-15T22:32:39.523ZLaila Moehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/LailaMoe
<p>I'm not accusing you personally. I simply said that this is a misogynistic perspective. I really don't like to label people based on their ideas and perspectives and opinions because these things change.</p>
<p>We simply cannot dismiss an argument because we don't "like being classified" that way. The reality is that your girlfriend may have been raped by you. She may have woken up one morning next to you and realized that she was raped. She may not have talked about it. And not liking it…</p>
<p>I'm not accusing you personally. I simply said that this is a misogynistic perspective. I really don't like to label people based on their ideas and perspectives and opinions because these things change.</p>
<p>We simply cannot dismiss an argument because we don't "like being classified" that way. The reality is that your girlfriend may have been raped by you. She may have woken up one morning next to you and realized that she was raped. She may not have talked about it. And not liking it does not make it any less real or make you any less responsible. You may have also had been raped by a person while drunk... excuse my explicitness but an erection does not necessarily mean that a person wants to engage in sex. I understand that people are not children, but it is extremely difficult to give consent and make decisions while drunk... I mean can you testify in court, sign a legal contract, drive...? Why do we look at rape like it's less important than these things? People drink and drive all the time, but just because people do it, that doesn't mean that what they're doing isn't wrong. Same goes to people having drunk sex.</p>
<p>Not every guy who had sex with a woman who had something to drink is a rapist, but every man who had unwanted sex with a woman who had something to drink and was therefore unable to consciously refuse could be. So the reality is, if it was not unwanted, your sex partner will not report it so you don't even have to worry about the classification. However, it could have been unwanted and your sex partner could be too afraid to speak about it, so it is best to make sure that your partner consents and that you both do not get drunk before sex. I, on the other hand, should not have to wake up naked next to a man that I had a few drinks with... whether he's a stranger or my boyfriend. I should not have to have flashbacks of that night and how uncomfortable and unsafe and hurt I felt. </p>
<p>In terms of the law, it could use a lot of changes. I'm not an expert, but a few feminist and lgbtq' groups have been pushing for certain demands and changes that I think you should check out. </p>
<p></p> Consent is not necessarily a…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-11-15:1982180:Comment:14064792013-11-15T21:55:14.811ZLaila Moehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/LailaMoe
<p>Consent is not necessarily a conversation or discussion, you simply ask the person before you do the thing that you are about to do whether or not they want it (and you make sure that they feel completely safe and without pressure answering your question). </p>
<p>On talking about sex...w<span style="font-size: 13px;">ell why don't they? And again, not just speaking about women and not just speaking about heterosexual couples. </span></p>
<p>Speaking about sex is such a great way to solve a…</p>
<p>Consent is not necessarily a conversation or discussion, you simply ask the person before you do the thing that you are about to do whether or not they want it (and you make sure that they feel completely safe and without pressure answering your question). </p>
<p>On talking about sex...w<span style="font-size: 13px;">ell why don't they? And again, not just speaking about women and not just speaking about heterosexual couples. </span></p>
<p>Speaking about sex is such a great way to solve a lot of problems in the bedroom. A lot of women according to many studies do not feel satisfied in bed... and the problem according to a few studies that i've read is about couples not talking in the bedroom (although many of these studies look at cisgendered women only... but the lgbtq' community is outspoken about this same issue). They do not tell their partners what they do and do not like. Mostly this is because of stigma (including the misogynist idea that women don't have needs and that their orgasm is unimportant). Talking is also great for "non-conventional" couples. Remember not all women have vaginas and not all men have penises. Our entire cultural understanding of sex and our cultural practice of sex is so archaic. It really needs to change. Talking about sex really can be sexy (from my personal experience as a cisgender woman). It can also make me feel safe and comfortable and in control and confident. All these things are important in sex. And not just for cisgendered women or even just women. </p>