How is it possible that I experience an object as either pleasent or not-pleasant? If all objects are inherently empty, there can be no inherent pleasure or non-pleasure in objects.

Then, is pleasure only a thought of the mind? I.e. I experience an object, then *think* 'this is pleasant', resulting in a 'pleasant' feeling? If so, why do I think some objects as pleasant, and others as non-pleasant?

-----------------------------------------The first part...don't confuse the term "empty of all inherent self nature" as being "empty of any real percieved nature".For example, consider a hammer. You may consider that hammer to be "empty of all inherent self nature", but if you hit yourself with that hammer it will still hurt. If you want an explanation consider that irregardless of any philosophical considerations of whether it has any "inherent self nature" or not, in your percieved world reality it had a percieved existance and therefore you percieve that it hurts when you hit your hand with that hammer.In short, a hammer may have no "inherent self nature" but it stiill has a percieved physical reality and it still hurts when you hit yourself with it.

Then, is pleasure only a thought of the mind? I.e. I experience an object, then *think* 'this is pleasant', resulting in a 'pleasant' feeling? If so, why do I think some objects as pleasant, and others as non-pleasant?

---------------------------------------------Basically, that's right.But just to add:From the day you were born your "Ego Mind" has been interpreting and attempting to control your sense pereptions.Some of the sense perceptions are interpretated by that "Ego Mind" as being favorable to it's world-view of reality. These are treated as "good" or pleasent by your Ego Mind. So you feel pleasure.Other sense perceptions are not favorable to the Ego Mind's world-view....and are therefore treated as "bad" or unpleasent.The Ego Mind is what you call the "I" that lives in "you".

Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.Did you think it was not there-- in your wife's lovely face in your baby's laughter?Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it? from - Judyth Collin The Layman's Lament From What Book, 1998, p. 52 Edited by Gary Gach

From a scientific point you have the purely physical part eg. if it is too cold and your about to freeze to death this is rather unpleasant. Then there is the psychological part which as far as I know is quite complex. Two important aspects here are conditioning (eg. if your family loves to eat snails and you eat them from child on you´ll probably like them more than if you grew up learning that snails are disgusting and slimy). Habituation again is that you can learn that things you usually would consider unpleasant are OK or good (eg. breathing in smoke normally is bad but if you are a smoker you start to like it). Then you´ve also got different layers mixed up. If you know that touching live coal causes a lot of pain you´ll be afraid already before you touch it and may feel it burn if it isn´t hot.

According to my experience the psychological part (the illusion? Which usually the bigger part) can be influenced quite well (attachment?). In the meditation one lets the thoughts just pass by and takes the environment (e.g. when you hear bird) just as what it is, without analyzing it (sound of a bird, probably a blackbird with a nest… could there be a cat close by?.....). The same can also be done with any feeling (pleasant/unpleasant, cold, anger, fear, …). Maybe comparable when you see the fuel reserve indicator you don´t panic but just see it and remember that you´ll soon have to go to a gas station (resulting in more mindfulness?).Little note: I don´t consider me as expert on Buddhism so I added these parts with a questionmark… Feel free to correct me if I used a wrong Buddhist expression.

Namdrol wrote:All pleasure and all pain arises as retribution for past positive and negative actions. The rest is mere detail.

N

Some people seem to like simplistics misleading statements.

Kind regards

As you are quoting Namdrol, my assumption is that you are saying his statement is misleading.

Actually, if we disregard the emotive aspect of term "retribution" which might arise as a feeling for those who have a karmic relationship that makes it seem unpleasant, what Namdrol is saying is pretty much sound 101 Buddhist view regarding karma (12 links of dependent arising etc), as pleasure and pain (and indifference) are karmically inevitable feelings which arise out of contact...

Last edited by mudra on Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Quiet Heart wrote:Basically, that's right.But just to add:From [well before] the day you were born [actually since time immemorial] your "Ego Mind" has been interpreting and attempting to control your sense pereptions.Some of the sense perceptions are interpretated by that "Ego Mind" as being favorable to it's world-view of reality. These are treated as "good" or pleasent by your Ego Mind. So you feel pleasure.Other sense perceptions are not favorable to the Ego Mind's world-view....and are therefore treated as "bad" or unpleasent.The Ego Mind is what you call the "I" that lives in "you".

I basically agree with what you are saying but wanted to add the coloured bits to make the statement "more correct".

it may arise from conditions of current life, and possibly past life experiences .

reynard80 wrote:How is it possible that I experience an object as either pleasent or not-pleasant?

From conditions .

Bill & sarah , in a past life they were well known dancers.

bill's most recent previous life he was a tap dancer who disliked break dancing due to his physical limitations.

Sarah's most recent past live, she was a break dance teacher, but disliked tap dancing due to physical limitations.

in current life Bill & Sarah decide to go out dancing .

they first go to a tap dance place.

Bill who does not really like dancing, but he was having a lot of fun with tap dancing . while sarah picked up the dance fairly well, didn't really like it and couldn't understand why,and simply said it was too boring.

they then go to a place to do break dancing .

in the current life, bill is an excellent all around athlete .Sarah has physical limitations and this kind of dance would be hard for her to learn.

They start dancing, Bill is doing great at it, but he thinks its terrible, and not proper dancing, it has no class and hates it, and does not know why.

where as sarah who is terrible, i mean she is uncordinated, and even threw up a few times, but she is having a blast, and does not know why she enjoys it so much.

even bill is dumbfounded that she liked this dance over tap dancing. [/quote]