__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Speedy Petey For This Useful Post:

Ground from extetior meter

The most important aspect of grounding has NOTHING to do with the grounding electrode conductor, the physical connection to the dirt, if it did planes would be screwed! And those living on granite mountains would be as well (screwed)

It is bonding and the assurance everything in the facility is properly grounded/bonded and that the grounded conductor/neutral is free of grounds/shorts to ground, downstream of the main service neutral to ground bond.

Earth COULD CARE LESS.

The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Know A Little For This Useful Post:

Ground from extetior meter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Know A Little

The most important aspect of grounding has NOTHING to do with the grounding electrode conductor, the physical connection to the dirt, if it did planes would be screwed! And those living on granite mountains would be as well (screwed)

It is bonding and the assurance everything in the facility is properly grounded/bonded and that the grounded conductor/neutral is free of grounds/shorts to ground, downstream of the main service neutral to ground bond.

Earth COULD CARE LESS.

I really hope that you are either kidding, or do not have a clue. You may want to stop while you are behind Know a not, as you should now be known.

I am sorry to state this, but I know a little bit more about how the systems work for not only electrical distribution in a home, but also on board a ship, and yes, I do also know how the electrical and other systems inter-work on a plane.

Try you might Know a little, but you failed big time on trying to come off as a smart a**.

Ground from extetior meter

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregzoll

Try you might Know a little, but you failed big time on trying to come off as a smart a**.

K A L is actually a really, really smart ass. In a very literal sense.

__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Speedy Petey For This Useful Post:

Ground from extetior meter

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregzoll

I really hope that you are either kidding, or do not have a clue. You may want to stop while you are behind Know a not, as you should now be known.

I am sorry to state this, but I know a little bit more about how the systems work for not only electrical distribution in a home, but also on board a ship, and yes, I do also know how the electrical and other systems inter-work on a plane.

Try you might Know a little, but you failed big time on trying to come off as a smart a**.

It never ceases to amaze me how the train of thought that ground fault current wants to go to earth is still even a thought. But the reasons are old habits never die easy, and there are several books on the market, by major publishers, that still teach this. With that in mind I can see this train of thought will still be passed on.

Simple Ohms law will reveal the amount of current that the earth and the connection to earth, how much current can flow.
Lets say you have 120 volts and the resistance of the earth is 20 Ohms: 120/20 = 6 amps of current flow. If that is connected to a 15 ampere breaker, that will not trip that breaker.

BTW - We have measured many grounding connections around here and the average is around 70 Ohms. 120/70 = 1.7 amperes of current flow

Theory: All electrons that leave the source (battery, transformer, generator, etc..) want to get back to the source. The electrons will travel every available path, regardless of the resistance. So some will travel the earth path, but most will follow the path of 'least resistance', which hopefully will be the intended path.
Mike Holt's Theory book is very good for electricians, and has good illustrations that we can relate to on an everyday basis.

To the ones interested in learning the NEC, if you are studying the code, that is great, but you should also be studying theory, this will greatly enhance your understanding of the code as well.

Pierre

************************************************

Why then for a WATER pipe ... is wire size get bigger with the amount of amps of the service .... but the ground rod never needs to be bigger than #6 ???

__________________Philadelphia Master Electrician-Generac Dealer

Last edited by Philly Master; 11-10-2013 at 08:04 AM.

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Philly Master For This Useful Post:

Ground from extetior meter

2011 NEC CODE

250.4 General Requirements for Grounding and Bonding.

*
*
*
*(5)Effective Ground-Fault Current Path. Electrical equipment and wiring and other electrically conductive material likely to become energized shall be installed in a manner that creates a low-impedance circuit facilitating the operation of the overcurrent device or ground detector for high-impedance grounded systems. It shall be capable of safely carrying the maximum ground-fault current likely to be imposed on it from any point on the wiring system where a ground fault may occur to the electrical supply source. The earth shall not be considered as an effective ground-fault current path.

I rest my case .......

__________________Philadelphia Master Electrician-Generac Dealer

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Philly Master For This Useful Post:

Ground from extetior meter

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregzoll

I really hope that you are either kidding, or do not have a clue. You may want to stop while you are behind Know a not, as you should now be known.

I am sorry to state this, but I know a little bit more about how the systems work for not only electrical distribution in a home, but also on board a ship, and yes, I do also know how the electrical and other systems inter-work on a plane.

Try you might Know a little, but you failed big time on trying to come off as a smart a**.

Greg, I am not here to argue with you regarding grounding or any other subject for that matter. I have explained to you before my credentials regarding grounding and grounding issues. That you have a vast experience in DIY'ing and reading is impressive. But on this subject not only are you misguided you are FLAT OUT DANGEROUSLY WRONG.

If you can WITHOUT a link to misguided websites explain to me logically, mathematically and supply a one line that shows how your beliefs on the Earth important role in grounding works I will take a look.

Until then you really need to cool your jets on this issue. Lastly how or why do you feel it necessary to attack me personally, at no point have I attacked you lack of knowledge on this subject with personal attacks?

The Following User Says Thank You to Know A Little For This Useful Post:

After starting to read that link it is clear that no distinction is clearly made between the function of the GEC and EGC. Both are mentioned in the same paragraph even though they serve entirely different purposes.

Given the proper bonding between the EGC and the neutral a breaker will trip properly without a ground rod.

Here is what the NEC says about system grounding and it's purpose.

(1) Electrical System Grounding. Electrical systems that
are grounded shall be connected to earth in a manner that
will limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or
unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines and that will
stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation

Here is a section concerning EGC's and equipment grounds.

(5) Effective Ground-Fault Current Path. Electrical equipment
and wiring and other electrically conductive material
likely to become energized shall be installed in a manner that
creates a low-impedance circuit facilitating the operation of
the overcurrent device or ground detector for high-impedance
grounded systems. It shall be capable of safely carrying the
maximum ground-fault current likely to be imposed on it from
any point on the wiring system where a ground fault may
occur to the electrical supply source. The earth shall not be
considered as an effective ground-fault current path.

__________________
Answers based on the National Electrical Code. Local amendments may apply. Check with your local building officials.

Ground from extetior meter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Know A Little

The most important aspect of grounding has NOTHING to do with the grounding electrode conductor, the physical connection to the dirt, if it did planes would be screwed! And those living on granite mountains would be as well (screwed)
.

Think of the issue this could cause for boats if they needed ground rods. Blub Blub.

__________________
Answers based on the National Electrical Code. Local amendments may apply. Check with your local building officials.

Ground from extetior meter

Mr. Greg is so way off target as I'm sure the electrical professionals on here agree. Learning how to install an intercom system in a Navy ship, buying DIY residential electrical books from HomeDepot, researching bogus internet websites about how electricity works; make an arm-chair electrician filled full of erroneous, faulty logic. I think we all know to whom I'm talking about. On one side, it's dangerous to provide such flawed rehetoric to those who are clueless about electrical work. On the other hand, I actually find it amusing at how one's narcissistic, fantasy world of electricity corrupts DIY'ers projects. I just hope they don't take his disastrous advice. 50% of the American public have no clue about electricity, 49.05% think they do. .95% actually do -- they are called electricians!

Last edited by NotaDIY/Pro; 11-10-2013 at 09:05 AM.

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to NotaDIY/Pro For This Useful Post:

Ground from extetior meter

I have to say, Greg is not a dumb guy, which is why I am so surprised he is not conceding this one.

__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Speedy Petey For This Useful Post:

Ground from extetior meter

I'm sure Mr. Greg is competent at something......... it's just not electricity. (I've seen his past advice) When he is on target, it's usually something a 5th grader could figure out. His arrogance is overwhelming with his dream-land electrical advice. Just an observation -- heck he is probably a great guy outside of this forum. He's just a bit misguided.

Ground from extetior meter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

I have to say, Greg is not a dumb guy, which is why I am so surprised he is not conceding this one.

I agree and OVER GROUNDING will not hurt. I have been on sites with power quality issues on the 12th floor of a high rise and the Electrical Engineer and installing contractor want us to test the Earth resistance of their system and as they add additionally ground rods, debating a triad or square lay out.

All that additional copper in the Earth actually helps out miners, smelters, supply houses and contractors. Never solves the power quality issue.

Advertisement

The Following User Says Thank You to Know A Little For This Useful Post: