Relics Part Two

Comments

My big problem with good relics is that once used they can't be unused. This leads to the kind of thinking that made me carry a Wand of Fireball through 7 levels of BG2 because "what if I need it more later?". Giving me one of an awesome thing and telling me that I can only use it once is practically the same thing as never giving me that awesome thing, because I'm never going to use it. Giving me some ability to move a relic from shrine to shrine would make me way more likely to want to use rare relics.

Reroll them, trade them in for faith, have some archaeologist who buys them, anything. I honestly don't care what we do with them as long as there's something to do with them.

It's very hard to balance relatively rare consumables like this, so I would not be that comfortable with this. I suspect it would range from overpowered to useless with very few stops in between.

I'd like to see something where a shrine that's X rooms away from the shrine can act like a repeater and broadcast the power too. This would make shrine networks more powerful while also making certain shrines into better targets by cutting networks in half and such.

Yes, obviously.

"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

I'm a bit worried about letting people move relics, especially with some of the changes that I'll discuss below. There would need to be a significant cost associated with it so people don't more them around too much.

I'm thinking for relics about a mob that will swap relics with you. Think like trade fewer relics for random lower levels all the way to a lot of relics to specify the power and type. And in between for in-between options. I'm currently thinking of anywhere from 5-100 relics at a time.

It sounds like no on the consumables.

Below are some possible changes to how relics would work on a relic-by-relic basis. No new relics at the moment. Point out the good, the bad and the too good.

Hellfire: I believe PER MINUTE is too low of a proc rate to make it even remotely useful.

Nullification: having sect members keep their own artifacts is going to make a HUGE difference in every single fight.

Defiance: while I like having this be permanent, having a level 3 affect the entire web would backfire on a sect that has a shrine in a position for useful benefits, like summer/winter resistances. I believe level 3 should just be room + 2 adj.Lethargic: ^Mayhem: ^Acute: ^Fury: ^Wraith: ^

That being said, I think that if you introduced a mob that let us reroll new relics (or pick at a high cost), we won't need to move relics between shrines.

Just at a quick glance, this seems pretty insane. The always on offense powers that extend to webs of shrines will essentially render areas like Demon's Pass that are heavily fortified with shrine webs unusable for anyone outside of those sects, if I'm understanding this correctly?

Nullification shouldn't exist, period. Artifacts are a fact of the game and while I appreciate efforts to equalize fights, this kind of effect essentially removes entire factions from fights. Absolutely not, please.

I don't think they render places like demons pass unusable as a bashing area, but the sect with the shrines would have a strong advantage. But the point is to reward those that can and do maintain a system of shrines. For nullification, the time is short, the range is short, and it has to be activated. I anticipate some people will hate it and some people will love it, but I still think it's worth trying out for a bit at least.

I don't think they render places like demons pass unusable as a bashing area, but the sect with the shrines would have a strong advantage. But the point is to reward those that can and do maintain a system of shrines. For nullification, the time is short, the range is short, and it has to be activated. I anticipate some people will hate it and some people will love it, but I still think it's worth trying out for a bit at least.

Nullification needs to be everybody loses their artifacts or it needs to be removed entirely. Personally, I would like to see it removed entirely; I think it would work far better as an arena mode than it does as a world-PvP thing

"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

I don't think they render places like demons pass unusable as a bashing area, but the sect with the shrines would have a strong advantage.

No, I'm pretty sure a 20% bal malus in large chunks of Demon's Pass would pretty much make it unbashable(or at the very least, significantly slower and less profitable). As would a random 500 damage tick every few rooms. As would having reduced resists the whole time. All of these effects could be interesting(to some degree) in very isolated situations, but there is a very good chance I'll just avoid bashing/combat/etc in any and all areas where those sorts of effects are up permanently in any real number of rooms. Honestly, I don't think many of the listed effects would be enjoyable at all outside of opt-in combat like Monolith fights, Obelisk battles, and arena style events, but maybe the thought of having lowered resists in a fight against artifacted Templars and Wardancers sounds exciting to someone else?

Nullification needs to be everybody loses their artifacts or it needs to be removed entirely. Personally, I would like to see it removed entirely; I think it would work far better as an arena mode than it does as a world-PvP thing

Rethinking this, I absolutely don't want Nullification as an option outside of the arena. Those of us with artifacts paid good money for those artifacts and I dislike the idea of people getting to cancel them in world PvP.

maybe the thought of having lowered resists in a fight against artifacted Templars and Wardancers sounds exciting to someone else?

This seems like a good idea to me!

"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

Could you guys rethink the faith generation from PvP again? It's dropped low enough now so that PvP isn't actually a real method of generating faith now and consequently it has made bashing far more important. Gaining faith from PvP experience doesn't make up for having the kill-reward reduced by 90%.

"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

The faith gain on killing ranges from 10% to 350% of the previous values. It's no longer a constant. There's also the faith gain on XP gain as you mention, as well as no faith loss on deaths. Get favours and kill at shrines if you want higher pvp faith gains.

I'm thinking for relics about a mob that will swap relics with you. Think like trade fewer relics for random lower levels all the way to a lot of relics to specify the power and type. And in between for in-between options. I'm currently thinking of anywhere from 5-100 relics at a time.

So as to not to misappropriate the I Hate thread, I'm putting here a response to @Septus and a few others about shrines.

I do plan to remove the Shrine faith percent change on death. This hasn't really worked as intended. You already get boosted faith returns when killing someone in a shrine room, and even more if a lot of people are and have been in the shrine room, so I don't plan on adding anything in its place. I'll make an announce post when it happens.

Also, I understand people's concerns about shrines being too easy to destroy, but keep in mind that there are plenty of mechanisms to make it much harder or even impossible to destroy shrines. Shrine layout and planning are critical. It's also important to point out that shrines in heavily contested areas (such as Demon's Pass) are by design much easier to destroy than shrines in uncontested areas. Most of the shrines I see being attacked are those in contested areas, so they will fall quicker. (Similarly upkeep for shrines in contested areas is more than the upkeep for shrines in uncontested areas.)

It's also important to point out that shrines in heavily contested areas (such as Demon's Pass) are by design much easier to destroy than shrines in uncontested areas. Most of the shrines I see being attacked are those in contested areas, so they will fall quicker. (Similarly upkeep for shrines in contested areas is more than the upkeep for shrines in uncontested areas.)

The point you raise here speaks to the (continued) fundamental problem with the system - shrine development in uncontested areas (areas that by definition lack intrinsic PK or bashing value) exists solely to link up (geographically) with contested areas. If through lack of interest or resources to constantly defend contest-area shrines, I decide to stick with promoting my sect through placement in the obscure wilds - aside from a larger drain on my sect's belief, what sort of tangible benefit are we achieving by "spreading the gospel" in this way?

“We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."

There are benefits to building shrines in each area, which is why an area such as Demon's Pass has been sought after. But Demon's pass is hardly the only bashing area.

But even in Demon's Pass you can build shrines that cannot be defiled. For example, if a level 4 has two level 4 shrines (of the same cult/sect) 1 room away then that level 4 shrine cannot be defiled. Or 3 level 4 shrines two rooms away. Or some combination thereof. You can build your shrine network so that it has only a few shrines that can be defiled at all, and use relics such as Aegis to make those shrines extremely hard to defile. Similarly, shrines built with idol stones cannot be defiled so long as there is another shrine within 15 rooms of the idol. It's a trade off--expand fast and be vulnerable, or do it slowly and have some safety.

9. Holier than Thou - Activated - Converts faith into belief, grants access to a sect-themed shout for a time.

10. sv_gravity 132.8 - Everyone within 0/1/3 rooms of the shrine is treated as unmassed and can fly.

11. sv_gravity 9001 - Everyone within 0/1/3 rooms of the shrine is treated as massed and cannot fly.

12. Ward - 0/1/3 rooms from shrine detect movement. Activating toggles reporting on and off for the entire web.

13. Sweet Dreams - Insomnia, metawake, and quince do not work within 0/1/3 rooms of shrine.

14. Have You Ever Seen Scent of a Woman? - As Consumption relic, but with the cactus weed effect.

15. Whispers - Voices within 0/1/3 rooms of shrine show as nameless and indistinct voices.

16. Love - Allows sect members to perform a marriage ceremony at the shrine. Cooldown reduction for more pieces, with high base cooldown so that couples have to fight for the best wedding reservations.

17. Pilgrimage - Daily ("Monthly") experience reward for going to shrine and activating the relic. More exp for more pieces. Exp fluctuates based on proximity to altar and other pilgrimage sites, increasing as distance does, or some other limit like 1 per area.

18. Beacon - Extends web range of the shrine by 3/6/12 rooms

19. Take Me to the Moon - Activating provides a "monolith" of whatever type for X/2X/3X time. Stacks

20. Coexist - Temporarily counts shrine as in the web of both the original sect and targeted sect. Restricted power, cooldown based on time.

21. DoS - Take a targeted shrine's relics "offline" for X time. Cooldown tiered to relic level and distance from the targeted shrine. Combine multiple for your own LOIC.

23. Church - 7 ig day cooldown, grants a highfavour that lasts for 10m/25m/1h to everyone in the room when activated.

24. Sermon - Some command or proc on entry to the shrine that plays a bit of flavor text a la the crystals of racism in the Temple at Menanon. More messages for more pieces, or maybe something like allowing color tags at Level 2 and a customizable preacher mob at 3? FEATURES, basically.

25. Ragnarok - Once activated, only one person in the room will be walking out alive (or undead).

26. Ribbit - Spawns a frog from the Bait the Frog game for a minute or so. GLHFDD

27. Outrageous - Starts a game-wide gemhunt. Either a cooldown with a decent reward, or cooldown+belief and a better reward.

28. What an Itch - Gives the itchy curse to non-sect/sect/everyone/whatever while within 0/1/3 rooms of the shrine

29. Acceleration Gate - Walking through the relic room gives you a one-shot boost of 2/4/8 steps of movement.

30. Trump Card - Kills everyone in the room. You'll kill people so fast, you'll get tired of killing them so fast.