Open Thread

187 Replies to “Open Thread”

sbarrkum: Since your post was also addressed to me on another thread I like to share the following random thoughts on sexual relations you have alluded to. These days one should not be bashful to discuss sex. Talking is not a sin and is less harmful than doing it outside marriage. If you are male and living alone, sexual fantasies take over your thoughts and nothing to be worried.

Coming to the actual topic, relationship with domestic help is not institutionalized in India (and hopefully Pakistan), the way you have mentioned. There are alternate methods available in India which are equally nefarious.

From my reckoning, in Bombay when it was called Bombay, only well to do have full time maids. The teenage son was expected score with the maid as part of rites of passage to adulthood. These days this could be different.

Its just that I grew up in Mumbai in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s. I have an enormous set of friends from there, from the richie rich Gujaratis of SoBo to children of Goregaon tabela wallas. I have read a number of books on the place. Never have I ever heard anyone even remotely imply anything like this.

And it wouldnt make sense at all. Most maids in Mumbai are married Marathi women, with a strong ethnic and political consciousness. Their disposition towards non-Marathi people, even if they are their employers, can in absolutely no way be described as servile.

To get a sense of how Marathis feel about non-Marathis in Mumbai, especially North Indians, I would strongly recommend the movie Court. Its a brilliant film even otherwise.

Vikram, By 80s and 90s the world has changed markedly from 60s and 70s for India. I am talking late 60s and early 70s. My source is Times of India. Today people may not believe but it was a robust, serious news paper in India with venerable Dilip Padgoanker as editor, Bennet Coleman publishers etc. Today there are no words to describe the low decrepit nature of TOI. With that background let me proceed.

Like it is common today to read about rapes and murders of children and women in India, in those days there used to be constant reports in news papers about domestic maid abuse and sexual assault in Bombay highrises; particularly in the homes of sethjis. They are the people with some money those days who can afford to live in a flat all by themselves or who can employ a live in maid.

Again papers are full of comments about the fate of the maids (who themselves are in their teens). The segregation of genders was total in schools and colleges. You would not be caught dead talking to a female who is not a family member. The consensus was that under those social ambiance the parents would look the other way if the youngster in the house showed some romantic interest (read sex) in the maid and if that lead to his adulthood. Hope this narrative gives a window to the past. Definitely given with malice to none and no prurient interest either.

Might be reading more into this than necessary, but this is not a bad way of summarizing things. The name change from Bombay to Mumbai, which still greatly upsets the non-Marathi elites of Mumbai, was part of a process through which the natives ‘retook’ their city. A louder voice for working class Marathi women was a part of this change.

To be quite honest, I was pissed off with Kabir’s comments in a previous thread. Basically Kabir says, he has no interest in the poor or common people.

Kabir then goes on to remark he is not interested in literature (gave an example; cant recall) that explores the plight of the poor. Says he cant be bothered reading about them.

I made a comment about bonking the house niggers. Kabir says it is disgusting. Really Kabir, dont know of friends and family bonking the house niggers/servants.

I know of quite a few from Ceylon. Family friends, relatives. In one particular case (which I got to know as an adult) both father and son were both bonking the house nigger. She was very pretty, still recall her. I must have been about 8-9 years old.

I had an older relative whose claim to fame was that he had bonked three generations. Grandmother, mother and daughter.

These are stories from 50+ years ago.

Now has to be super rich (relative to SL) to have a servant. A pay of at least USD 200 and a room for stay at home. Essentially SL rich have to compete with the Gulf countries.

A SL maid to the Gulf gets paid an upfront USD 2000. Then a wage of USD 300-400. For sure the Arabs are bonking the SL house niggers.

In the past (80’s and 90’s), SL maids had to pay fees (in cash and kind) to job agents to get that job in the Gulf. They bonked (physically and monentary) all the way from the application to the airport in SL, and then in the Gulf.

Kabir, I know it is all disgusting but then as a theater/arts person shouldnt you be aware and try to institute change even in an minute way.

i have had arabian (ie from saudi or gulf) men tell me candidly and excitedly that a fringe benefit of having non-muslim female servants from sri lanka and philippines that you can sexually assault them without much repercussion (they are not muslim so the authorities don’t care much).

Then they get fucked and fucked truly, as in a beheading
Sri Lankan muslim teenager Maid gets a Death sentence
Rizana Nafeek’s mother rejected offers of cash up to $16,000 from Saudishttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rizana_Nafeek

Please, Kabir and AnAn maids dont get fucked where inequality is the name of the game.

Clinton did not have sex with that woman; Monica, (ok Bill clinton was a uncultured trailer trash). Who was that IMF guy Domnic who tried to fuck the hotel maid.

hoipolloiolder relative was perhaps guilty of incest.
Possible.
He was Manager/PD for about 1,000 acre tea estate (possibly early as 1930. I used to have the couple of drinks with him, my late teenage and early 20’s). PD is from Periya Dorai (Tamil) used for the top Manager. SD is Sinna Dorai, i.e. Asst Managers.

Job title does not sound impressive, but was the creme de la creme of jobs in the heyday of tea. That category of jobs were called Planter. Initially the Brits and then the Sri Lankans planted seed all over.

I dont think there was much difference between how US south plantation slaves and Tea estate worker were treated.

sbarrkum, Nice rejoinder from you. You said it right about life on US plantation and SL Tea estate between master and the work force. We recently talked on this blog about how the southern white plantation owners were siring 30% of next generation slaves which is an abomination by itself. Your son is your slave when he should be your prince in life.

Now getting back to tea estates. The PD probably thought he was all powerful stud and ladies man. See the possibility. The second and/or third generation were sired by him for sex purpose. Very animalistic. Incest is something abhorred universally. Even otherwise you are not to lie with your step kids. Was he a winner or a loser?

Sinna is my pet name while growing up. I was Sinna Dora for my parents. Do you smile reading this? Hope you had a good weekend.

Is there evidence for this high a number? I have not seen it. Note that slave-owners who did this (and didn’t free the resulting progeny) tried hard to keep it secret and were shunned by their families, churches and communities. Of course it happened a lot; but 30% seems to be too high an estimate.

Of course America had half a million free blacks in 1860. It is possible that a large percentage of them had caucasion ancestry.

What percent of the SL tea farm peasant children had farm owner fathers?

The average Afram is 18% Caucasian (autosomally) and considering that the ancestry is male-biased that means that at least a third of Afram paternal lineages must be Caucasian. I don’t know how it stacks up with the Y-Chromosome data etc but just a extrapolation..

(Thomas) Jefferson’s wife, Martha, died at age 33 after suffering difficult childbirths and several months after the birth of her last child. Jefferson, who was heartbroken, was 39 at the time. From his wife he inherited many slaves. One, the teenage Sally Hemmings, was one-fourth black and—because she was the child of Martha’s father—was Martha’s half sister. (It was common for slave owners, through rape, to impregnate women they owned.) According to some reports, Sally and Martha, sharing a father, looked alike. Jefferson would eventually father a number of children with Hemmings. These children, one-eighth black, remained enslaved on Jefferson’s plantation to the end of his life, often working in the house. Visitors to Monticello were known to remark on the resemblance of some of Jefferson’s slaves to their master

The cultured just have extra marital relations with the house niggers.

The oldest recorded is Abraham who fucked Hagar. Hagar was Abrahams wife Sarahs hand maiden. Hand maiden is just another word for house Negress. When Hagar had a child (Ishmael) , Abraham chased out Hagar into the desert (whats new). Ishmael is considered the ancestor of the Arabs.

AnAn you should tell your Jewish pals, they are uncultured because their ancestor fucked the house Negress and then chased her out because she had a child.

hoipolloi, a few situations come to mind about live in maids in Bombay/Mumbai (I can’t help but call the city Bombay; which many from the older generation still call Bombay).

Back in the 1980s Bombay was like an alternate universe, so unlike the rest of India. It was like a piece of Bangkok/Malaysia/Singapore/Hong Kong/Seoul/Taipai/Gulf stuck in the middle of India. Calcutta was very different . . . similar to a time machine entry into stagnant ancient English Anglo Indian fusion syncretic culture. But 1980s Bombay was clearly modern, westernized, globalized (lots of business with other parts of Asia), rich, vibrant, alive and happening.

The live in maids were highly compensated, educated, cultured, very professionally and smartly dressed, sophisticated. They had the sophisticated elite Indian english accent and spoke Bombay Hindi. They had many offers from the Gulf paying them many multiples of what they made in Bombay. But they hesitated to take the offers (looking back on it maybe for fear of sexual harassment and losing their close family bond with the host family.) In some cases they were multi-generational servants. In some cases the host family would encourage them to move on with their lives and take higher paying career options. [Secretly they would tell me they couldn’t afford servants anymore.] But these cheerful servant woman or girls were emotionally attached to the host family.

In 2007, a 25 year old multi-generational female servant was still living with a Bombay family I know. She was college educated (paid for by the host family) but too emotionally bonded with the old couple to leave. She might have feared that no one would take care of them if she left since the kids lived far way. Although for all I know she had another Bombay job and just stayed with the elderly couple as a type of second job.

In all these cases the host family was fiercely protective of their live in or commuting maids and viewed them as a kind of cross between extended family and maid. They were worried about their safety (maybe too worried) and tried hard to protect them from any mistreatment by others. Again these are cultured spiritual families.

I couldn’t imagine any of the live in or commute maids I saw in Bombay being harassed.

However Bombay has a lot of nouveau rich now who are extremely crass and perceived as “uncultured”. My family and friends were worried about how these shady characters mistreating their maids (mostly they didn’t mean sexually). And if they were worried, who am I to disagree.

A constant refrain from friends and family in India is the moral decay of India, including of the nouveau uncultured rich. Again these are more spiritual circles.

“The teenage son was expected score with the maid as part of rites of passage to adulthood” Abomination. Makes me sick to my stomach that people might think this way. How common was this grossness?

Why are we discussing non-consensual sex with servants? This is so disgusting. Sexual assault is always wrong, whether the person assaulted is Muslim or non-Muslim.

Consent is required for any sexual relationship. Servants are employees. They get paid to do a job. Sexual relations are not their job.

I don’t know where sbarrkum gets off telling me that I’m not compassionate towards the average Pakistani. I don’t need to hang out with them in their villages to show that I’m compassionate. I live in a posh part of Lahore. I have no interest in ever leaving the upper-class areas unless absolutely necessary. In Washington, we never left Foggy Bottom or Dupont Circle unless we had to. I really don’t get why the only way to show compassion is to go hang out in the slums. We give to charity and we take care of our employees when they need medical attention and things like that. That’s more than enough. It is the responsibility of the government to improve the lot of the average citizen.

You have self-identified as “lower class”. I really don’t care about your class position.

Sexual assault is wrong. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but it is wrong.

I really don’t understand your issue with people who become educated and make money and then choose to make a comfortable life for themselves. One doesn’t have to go slumming to prove one is a good person.

I’m done here, but please don’t get to the level of insulting my family and implying we rape our servants. That is really “lower-class” behavior and doesn’t even deserve to be responded to.

you seem to have a tendency to personalize exchanges on the internet with other people in a vulgar manner. i guess that’s your style. but this has happened with anan, kabir and myself that i can count.

Kabir is the kind of guy who makes a ultraconservative person thinking of becoming a radical marxist revolutionary. This kind of blatantly proud and out ‘Ashraf’s you seldom meet nowadays, they are only seen in literature and stories of yesteryear. Too bad blue bood, posh houses, posh area, posh family, posh education, posh yada yada failed to give him a even a mediocre intelligence.

I am sorry but I should not have brought on matter of intelligence in discussing Kabir’s peculiar penchant to flaunt his lineage and upbringing. I should have said sense of propriety. Kabir, seriously, in a intellectual community bragging about wealth and family is incredibly stupid. Its just stupid. It just makes you a lesser individual because you started the race with so much advantage. On the other hand, sensible mention of hard background and lowly origin is good because that shows how you had overcome barriers. So if you had good advantages in life, keep mum about it. Don’t remind everyone every other day.

I don’t comment much, as I’m not a “Brown” person, and since I’m not “Desi” I feel that I lack the cultural and phenomological foundations that would allow me to fully understand “diasporic” South Asian concerns, on a truly “intimate” level.

(I’m a Pashtun. When it comes to physical appearance, I resemble Chechens and other Dagestanis far more than I do any population in India. Furthermore, the culture and norms, as well as food and clothes, of my recent ancestors were closely tied to the broader socio-cultural systems of highland West Asia. And to top it off, IRL Desis never see me as one of them, as I look too “Gora”, and the cultural divergence is too much for them.

But with that being noted, my people do have a very deep connection to Greater India. South Asian influence, via the Greater Punjab, is undeniable. This cultural connection to northern South Asia is a big part of why I take such an interest in “Desi” matters, and one reason for my continued perusal of this blog. Other reasons are listed below, lol)

But with that being said, I do follow this blog, partly for the entertainment value (a fair share of crazies seem to dig this scene), and also because I enjoy reading Razib Khan (I almost always disagree with him, but he is a man of considerable intellect, a free-thinker, and is always interesting).

But I came out of hiding to say this: Shafiq, you hit the nail right on the head!

Reading Kabir is always painful, because you can almost sense the desperation. Constant mentioning of education and “wealth” says a lot about a person.

Haha.. you don’t say. The ferocity with which Kabir hounded you out the last time you dared to question the mogul-hierarchy-consensus was particularly enlightening of his many pathologies. I’m a lurker here myself, drawn to the posts of Razib, Omar and Slapstik (hope he’s making a comeback?)

Yep, that was also the last nail in the coffin for me (or my perception/ assessment of Kabir)..
Commentator: You are articulate and intelligent, and we need diverse Pakistani / Afghan perspectives. Please stay, and not just as a lurker, but be true to your nick here 🙂

You have no idea about my intelligence. I got 800 out of 800 on the SAT Verbal. My ability to write English is probably better than most people’s on this forum. You have no idea how many books we have in our house.

I responded because a particular commenter implied that I am not a good person because we have servants at home and I don’t go and slum around in Pakistani villages. Honestly, I don’t see the need to slum around. Also, you don’t have to be particularly rich in Pakistan to have servants. You just have to be a successful member of the professional class. From there, somehow I was accused of sleeping with the help (this direct accusation was made on another thread) which accusation I find extremely offensive.

I am entirely aware that I am very lucky to have been born in a family which was in the professional class even during the British Raj. We have been doctors, lawyers, etc for generations. I am further lucky that my parents went to the US for higher education and then decided to immigrate there with their children. Otherwise, I would not be an American citizen today nor would I have had the advantages of growing up in a developed country. So yes, it’s not a personal achievement of mine to be among the upper-middle class of Pakistan.

I just don’t see why being wealthy is something to be sneered at. My parents worked for their money. They didn’t just inherit it.

i think some of what u said was probably misinterpreted tbh, though also tbh haven’t seen all of the comments re: servants, etc. i think the response was probably not charitable to you.

but to be frank, you are thin-skinned and uncharitable in your responses to other people and have been so repeatedly.

then again, i have little tolerance for most people and assume most on this forum are not as intelligent or well-informed as me and am not shy about expressing that view. but i’ve been blogging for 16 years now (so has zach l. on and off!) and writing in public…so i’ve figured out a way to make this work for me. i don’t get a sense you have figured out what works for you, because you are repeatedly at the center of drama.

I am aware that I am a lot smarter than most people here. My ability to write correct grammatical English is also far above the average. I have very little tolerance for stupidity and Islamophobia. Also for “techies” who think they know more than people who have actually studied the Humanities.

I really don’t care what you think either. Since I don’t know you in real life, it makes no difference to me whether you think I am “thin skinned’. You have used vulgar language to several people when they say things that you think are stupid or dare to comment on genetics. I think using such language reflects badly on the person doing it, but you do you.

This is a blog. You are not my personal friend or uncle or something, so advice regarding my personality is really out of place. I would go to a psychologist for that if I thought it was warranted.

As for teaching undergrads, you do realize that this forum is crawling with PhDs in science, engineering and quantitative disciplines? Nobody has boasted about their academic achievements even when taunted about their (lack) of credentials (with a few exceptions) but this is easy to impute from the quality of people’s interacts / comments and apparent expertise in certain areas. Every one of them would have taught undergrads in top universities in the US/Europe (and there is a chance someone here did in the real Harvard or Oxford too; heck even as I as a mere Master’s student taught undergrads in a top 5 Eng university in the US…lol)..The fact that this sort of a realization hasn’t dawned on you after weeks and weeks of interactions here, says something about you.

Finally a piece of unsolicited advice: If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging 🙂

The feeling is mutual. You sciency types think you understand the Humanities when you clearly lack the skills to do so. People should really stick to their own domain expertise. When you people start commenting on Islam and Pakistan, you sound incredibly dumb.

Just don’t ever respond to me and I won’t ever respond to you. But gossiping about me as if I am not here is completely unacceptable.

@ Razib:
[comment threads with kabir could be repackaged as a ‘comedy of manners’….
interlocutor with a protractor: but you must agree given that when you take square of the sums….
kabir in french painter’s hat: YOU TECHNICIAN! what a philistine you are to reduce the ineffable humanistic texture of our truth to calculation!]

False equivalence being implied here. And you are smart enough to know that this is not about STEM types vs. humanities, as much as someone would like to make it so. But I appreciate your effort to be charitable here 🙂

@hoipolloi:
[Satya @ “this forum is crawling with PhDs in science, engineering and quantitative disciplines” A perceptive comment that is likely true. Kudos.]

Thanks man, but it doesn’t take a lot of perceptiveness to know that the median IQ of this forum is quite high, with a handful of outliers (mostly on the right tail, but some one the left too, unfortunately :)).

[Oh Satya,
What literary reviews have you written? On what basis are you judging me? You don’t have the ability to do half of what I do. Please do teach Musicology or perform a 90 minute long solo recital, and then get back to me.

Honestly, who cares what engineers think? You people are a dime a dozen.

Anyway, I get that you don’t like me. You don’t need to make a big song and dance about it. Just shut the hell up. You sound so whiny and petty right now, it’s not even funny.]

I don’t write literary reviews or sing Khayal, but I am pretty good at what I do. What I do for my profession is something most people on this forum can’t do, not because they are not as smart, but because it is not their area of expertise. But that doesn’t make me superior to them (or vice versa).

You are the one boasting about your intellect, your credentials and disparaging others views based on a crazy credentialism that frankly I have never encountered before on an intellectual forum such as this one. My guess is that most people on this forum have chuckled at your claims of superiority, and while many have been too polite to say anything about it, some recently have felt compelled to write about it here.

This is getting too repetitive and I have wasted enough of my time on this. You can have the last word 🙂

You should have shut up a long time ago.It would have been better for all of us. This is not an “intellectual forum”. Most of you have no rigorous humanities training, which is super obvious from the garbage that you all write. Anan doesn’t even understand what post-modernism is or have the slightest clue about Edward Said’s contributions to Postcolonial Theory. Everything goes back to how great Hinduism is and how awful Muslims are. The level of discourse is ridiculous. The level of English is sad. If you want to see a real “intellectual forum”, Arts and Letters Daily is a prime example.

Engineers have their place. But perhaps you should shut up when the discussion turns to things that you are not qualified to discuss. Or do some homework and actually read Literature or Philosophy or whatever. But that’s too hard for people of your limited abilities.

Sorry, can’t be bothered to check for typos etc before posting on this forum. This is recreation for me, and unlike you, I don’t spend my entire day on here (I have spent a couple hours over the last day, but that is way more than my norm).

I suppose being an ex-adjunct(!) at the Harvard of Pakistan (lol) leaves you with nothing to do during the day..I sympathize. Why don’t you apply to some of these other Harvards? They might take you as a TA’s assistant 🙂

As a wellwisher, I really hope you see a psychologist as someone already suggested to on this forum. Regardless, I hope you can overcome your pathologies (as someone else put it on this thread). Best of luck 🙂

PS: Try coming back with something interesting, and I might throw a comment your way, but no guarantees 🙂

Satya,
It seems you don’t understand the very simple concept that universities have summer breaks between semesters and many instructors do not teach during the summers. If you’re too stupid to understand that simple fact, what hope is there for you?

[Satya,
It seems you don’t understand the very simple concept that universities have summer breaks between semesters and many instructors do not teach during the summers. If you’re too stupid to understand that simple fact, what hope is there for you?]

Weak! Lack of intellect, lack of wit, only pedanticism and delusion of grandeur. You really did get the short end of the stick despite your posh DHA house, post parents, posh yada, yada. My deepest sympathies 🙂

I was trying hard not to say this 🙂 It was crazy funny to see him boasting of his academic ‘qualifications’ when I think about everyone here is easily more qualified (certainly I am by a vast degree). Someone really needs to improve his benchmarks 🙂

Yes, I had to take one for the BP community 🙂
I have nothing against anyone personally, and people are free to write what they want (within reason) and expose their brilliance (or lack thereof) for the rest of us to admire, but when it gets in the way of intellectual, productive discussions, when it frustrates valuable contributors enough to want to not post, or leave entirely, it takes away from the quality of this forum. That’s the reason I wrote what I did, and there is ample evidence on this forum that I have plenty of (august) company on how I feel about this matter.

What really takes away from the quality of this forum is the number of Hindu Right people which seems to be increasing by the day. When one of the co-founders of the blog recognizes its increased anti-Pakistan and anti-Islam nature, you have a real problem.

“Secular Indian” is not really secular as earlier discussions have shown. Really secular people vote for the Indian National Congress not the Bharatiya Janata Party. There is a lingering anti-Muslim animus on this site.

You people seem to be obsessed with me. If you don’t like me, I get it (and I don’t really care). Personally, I think most of you are idiots. But I wouldn’t go around and write nasty comments or backbite. Strange folks you are.

[You people seem to be obsessed with me. If you don’t like me, I get it (and I don’t really care). Personally, I think most of you are idiots. But I wouldn’t go around and write nasty comments or backbite. Strange folks you are.]

This is cute and reminds of a Hindi/Urdu proverb about a cat going to Hajj after eating a 100 mice 🙂

If you are going to challenge / devalue people’s input based on your perception of their lack of credentials, proclaim that you are smarter than most people here (you really should do an anonymous poll about it :-)), say that “most people here are stupid” etc, then don’t go around and play a victim when people challenge you back to prove your assertions.

What you have shared so far, both in terms of your academic and professional degree, and the quality of your interacts here (even your literary reviews were far from impressive, sorry :)) provides scant evidence to support your claim of superiority.

Oh Satya,
What literary reviews have you written? On what basis are you judging me? You don’t have the ability to do half of what I do. Please do teach Musicology or perform a 90 minute long solo recital, and then get back to me.

Honestly, who cares what engineers think? You people are a dime a dozen.

Anyway, I get that you don’t like me. You don’t need to make a big song and dance about it. Just shut the hell up. You sound so whiny and petty right now, it’s not even funny.

Yes sir. Good to know that I’m not alone in how I perceive some of the material here.

And absolutely, the discussion with him on Pashtuns left a really bad taste in my mouth (like seriously; the man suggested that Pashtuns should be eliminated from Pakistan, that the Mughals were angels, and that Pakistani Punjabis are overlords to be worshiped by all other ethnic groups in that country. You can’t make this stuff up).

Satya,

Very kind words; I deeply appreciate them.

Anan,

Perhaps, eventually, one day. Life is a bit busy for the foreseeable future (I’m at leisure to comment here right now, because my vacation just started, lol).

Commentator:
” And absolutely, the discussion with him on Pashtuns left a really bad taste in my mouth”..
As I have mentioned before, this is a common theme and pattern across interactions on many different topics. In other words don’t feel too bad (or special :))

You have no enemies at Brown Pundits. Everyone is on your side and is trying to help you from their own point of view, even if imperfectly. Be as Mohammed pbuh was. Care not about fame and reputation. Care not what anyone else thinks. Feel Allah inside and all around you. I pray that every sound and vibration you hear and feel manifests Allah within you.

The world could demonize and terrorize Mohammed pbuh. But unaffected was He. In Chitta Shuddhi and Stitapragnya was He. For established in Allah was He. He meditated as Christ. Lost in love. Love all around. Love only.

he (Al-Beruni) explains that art and science require the protection of kings. ” For they alone could free the minds of scholars from the daily anxieties for the necessities of life, and stimulate their energies to earn more fame and favour, the yearning for which is the pith and marrow of human nature. The present times, however, are not of this kind. They are the very opposite, and therefore it is quite impossible that a new science or any new kind of research should arise in our days. What we have of sciences is nothing but the scanty remains of bygone better times.”

Compare with this a dictum quoted (i. 188) : “The scholarsare well aware of the use of money, but the rich are ignorant of the nobility of science.”

I was thinking of the US.
Science was funded heavily and US science soared to great heights.
Man on the moon and you name it. i.e. science requires the protection of kings. ” For they alone could free the minds of scholars from the daily anxieties for the necessities of life, and stimulate their energies

Now that that multinationals/oligarchs buy/control US govt scientific advances have slowed. i.e. rich are ignorant of the nobility of science.”

I am not sure who are you referring to but speaking plainly, I saw many of Kabir’s most outrageous comments and reactions (including mine) get scrubbed quickly.

It good to be civil but it is utmost important to be uncivil in establishing/preserving norms. If outrageous expressions, behavior goes without pushback for long time, they become accepted. I have become particularly short-fused in the recent years because I feel the world is going to hell in a handbasket not because of external constrains but because of human shortcoimgs.

If outrageous expressions, behavior goes without pushback for long time, they become accepted.

I will comment on this entire topic only once to disabuse you of the notion that this forum is some sort of a web-analogue of the wider society, where outrageous expression needs to be challenged.

It is not. It is more akin to a mouth-piece of a partisan few. Over time, you learn to train your priors and focus on some voices (where you can learn something new) and ignore others (where it’s more of the hackneyed ad nauseam).

Stick around so long as you think you can learn something new. Leave when you think you cannot.

Kabir, would you like to teach in Kabul University? Kabul University loves to hire accomplished American academics and you are one. If you go you could help improve Afghan Pakistani relations. One of the most challenging and tense relationships in the world.

Kabul University use to have abbreviated classes for visiting faculty. In other words one semester over 3 weeks (students only take one subject for 3 weeks) for short term visiting faculty. That would be perfect for you Kabir.

Afghans love Hindustani music and treat Hindustani singers (Pakistani and Indian) like rock stars. Good looking stud with a voice to match . . . you literally would be a star. Who knows you might come back with a Vidhi the second (Vidhi the first is with Zachary). Afghanistan is full of the most amazing, intelligent, wise, self assured, beautiful woman. Afghanistan is the shining star of Hindustan (or SAARC, Bharat, Arya varsha, South Asia). In fact Afghanistan is Hindustan plus. Hindustan plus Iran and Turan. Heaven on earth. I think you would deeply enjoy Kabul University and her amazing genius level intellect female rock star students and faculty. Please think about it.

Kabul and Kabul University are not a backwater. Kabul is one of the fountainheads of global civilization.

This said . . . London graduate school would be fun. Hope you get into the program of your choice and enjoy London. Maybe you will get some much coveted Vidhi food. Isn’t fair that only Zachary gets access to heavenly delicacies. 🙂

London has some remarkable world class music PhD programs. You would get access to a diverse cross sample of the world’s best and finest.

London is a stunning city. But please be careful. Liberal muslims (not just Quilliam) are often attacked by Islamists and post modernists in London. Pray that Allah keep you safe.

It’s not their fault. Kabul has been torn apart by civil war and then the Taliban and then the US invasion.

But yeah, Lahore is a richer city and quality of life is much better. We have much nicer gyms, salons and restaurants. We don’t have a war going on. The Sharifs have built us some really nice ring roads.

The Rigveda is neither here nor there so I don’t see why you feel the need to mention it.

If Kabul was so great the Afghans living in Pakistan would go back to their own country. The fact that they don’t says something.

Karachi is definitely more ethnically diverse than Lahore. Lahore is very much a Punjabi city while Karachi has people from all parts of Pakistan. Karachi is the economic capital (the NYC) while Lahore is the historical cultural capital. The film industry was based in Lahore (that’s why it’s called Lollywood). Karachi is much more fast paced, while Lahoris are more relaxed and like to have a good time. Lahore has all the Mughal history which Karachi doesn’t. It was basically a fishing village when the Brits got there.

The main point was though that Pakistan is much better off as a country than Afghanistan. This is obvious to anyone who is not in denial. When a country has been going through war for the past three decades, I don’t know what else you would expect.

Zachary, I have read a lot about Karachi. British India had two major business and financial centers; Karachi and Bombay. They were major global business and financial centers on pare with Paris, Frankfurt, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore, Chicago, San Francisco in 1947. If only British India had stayed together.

I would love to visit Karachi. Would you say that Karachi is the safest city in Pakistan to visit for a foreigner?

Islamabad is the safest city for foreigners. The US Mission used to not let their people leave the city limits of Isloo, not even to go to Pindi. If you went to Karachi, you were not allowed to leave your hotel or wherever your meeting was being held.

Karachi on par with Paris? That’s laughable. The French are actually a cultured people. Pakistanis not so much. South Asians as a whole need to get their shit together.

AnAn, A historical trivia. Apparently Mahatma Gandhi was so vexed after partition that he was making all arrangements to go and settle in Karachi. We can understand this. One, he is a perfect patriot. The second, Karachi is very much a Gujarati town just like Lahore is a Punjabi town that is a stones throw from Amritsar. Those were the days. Cheers.

Zack,
I was not referring to the stock exchange. But Karachi is a Mujahir city (so is Hyderabad) which is why the MQM gets so many votes in Karachi. The clashes are between Urdu-speakers and Sindhi speakers. Most of my dadi’s family moved to Karachi after Partition (and now they are living in DHA).

Milan, how can we get in touch? Please share about Kabul. Kabul appeared to be an ancient major center of global civilization before Krishna was born and remains one of the world’s great global cities. Kabul University is one of the world’s great global universities.

Kabul has 6 million people, good ring roads, many posh rich neighborhoods. Many Chinese, Iranians, Caucasions, Indians, Pakistanis work in Kabul. The reason more don’t live in Kabul is because Kabul has sky high property prices, rental rates and cost of living. Unless someone has a high paying job it doesn’t make sense to live in Kabul.

In the 1970s, Deep State GHQ decided to destroy Afghanistan and started organizing terrorist attacks across Afghanistan and against Kabul. Kabul has been at peace since December 2001. Kabul doesn’t have “fighting” or “war”. Kabul has occasional terrorist attacks, almost all of which are organized by GHQ Deep State and aimed at the perceived enemies of Pakistan. No one in their right mind would engage in a maneuver company sized gun battle in Kabul. Kabul has the very best of the ANSF’s praetorian troops. Too many in fact (most Afghans would prefer they were deployed to fight the Taliban versus sit around idle in Kabul). The NDS (National Directorate of Security . . . Afghan CIA) control the streets of Kabul.

Kabir, you should go to Kabul:
–Afghans will like your name
–Afghans will like your musical talents
–Being “hot” gets you far in life, and Kabul is no exception
–If the NDS decides to have a chat with you, tell them the truth:
—-Afghans are the smartest, most beautiful, most handsome people in the world
—-Afghans are the best people in the world
—-You positively adore the NDS, ANA (Afghan National Army), AAF (Afghan Air Force), ANP (Afghan National Police) and thank them for protecting you from GHQ Deep State and Taliban
—-You are in love with Kabul and the amazing Afghan people

You will be a guaranteed hit. Have you met Kabul woman? Seriously you need to get out more. 😉

Kabul men and woman are hot and have a night life. Kabul might be less heteronormative than you think. Much of the Taliban’s propaganda against Kabul is that it is no longer heteronormative and has become a party town. That propaganda isn’t entirely untrue.

Kabul has a large number of educated atheists and LBGTQ; much the way Karachi and Mumbai do.

India, Kabul, Iran, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia and Iraq are highly “civilized”. You can say that you prefer living in Europe or America; but please don’t imply that highly advanced ancient living civilizations are not “civilized”. I am not picking on you alone. I say the same thing to any international soldier or diplomat who served in these parts of the world.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. You will never convince me that any other part of the world is half as civilized as Europe and America. South Asia has a lot of catching up to do. A country that elects Mr. Modi as its leader cannot call itself civilized. India’s treatment of Muslims and of Kashmiris is barbaric (and I am using a charitable word).

This is not to say that I don’t have a deep love for Urdu and for Indo-Islamic culture. But we cannot even compare to the West. That’s why everyone who can is dying to go there. Thank the lord I have the coveted blue passport.

“You will never convince me that any other part of the world is half as civilized as Europe and America.”

Did you forget about everything east of Bengal? Every part of East Asia that didn’t go communist is first world (as are the largest urban centers of China that collectively have over 50 million people), and Japan and Korea both stand out as centers of global culture.

Fraxinicus,
Fine, let’s rephrase that. I have zero interest in East Asia–neither in their culture or their language or anything else about them. I read a novel about a house of pleasure in China during the Boxer rebellion and after that I lost interest.

I think by the far the French and the Italians are the most sophisticated people on earth. The Italians invented opera. The French invited fashion as well as “liberte, egalite and fraternite”. They also had more than their fair share of philosophers–Rousseau, Voltaire, Camus, Sartre, Simone De Beauvoir, Michel Foucault. Don’t get me started on French Literature– Flaubert, Proust, etc.

It’s pretty obvious I am a huge Europhile. If only the rest of the world could pick up some culture from them, we’d all be a lot better off.

“Karachi on par with Paris? That’s laughable. The French are actually a cultured people. Pakistanis not so much. South Asians as a whole need to get their shit together.”

Karachi was truly one of the world’s great business, financial and cultural centers in 1947. Although you are right that many poor people also lived in Karachi in 1947. What happened to Karachi after 1947 is truly sad 🙁

Bombay/Mumbai remains one of the world’s greatest business, financial, entertainment and cultural centers. Many of the world’s largest investment banks, commercial banks, MNCs, consulting companies still operate in Bombay. If Pakistan reforms, Karachi can return to her former heights. And Karachi tax revenues can pay for the Pakistani state the way Bombay/Mumbai pays for the Indian state.

US Mission are fools. Many American diplomats are furious about these stupid travel restrictions. President Obama–in many ways the most isolationist and least globalist US president since Herbert Hoover–greatly limited the mobility US diplomats abroad to travel, meet people and do their jobs.

“The average Afram is 18% Caucasian (autosomally) and considering that the ancestry is male-biased that means that at least a third of Afram paternal lineages must be Caucasian. I don’t know how it stacks up with the Y-Chromosome data etc but just a extrapolation..”

I am aware of this and intend to write a series of articles about it. Note that a lot of the caucasion ancestry comes through the 1/2 million free blacks circa 1860 and inter-racial marriage post 1860.

Black woman massively outperform black men by every socio-economic measure. Twice as many black females go to college compared to men. Note that half to three quarters of all blacks in elite American universities are either immigrant blacks or the children of immigrant blacks. I know of no data on the number of African American (more than two generations) broken down between woman and men in elite (say top 100) American university. It is possible that the ratio is more than two to one by that metric.

As a result many African American woman have told me that they can’t find black husbands and need to find non-black husbands. Many black American men marry non blacks too.

++++++++++++++++++++

Zach, Kabir is your friend I know. And because he is Pakistani he is allowed to call India names (uncivilized, backwards, backwater and so forth). He can’t help it because he is brainwashed. Can he at least not call countries other than India names? Turan, Iran, Afghanistan [the preceding being Arya] and ancient Sumeria are centers of global civilization.

Calling people “brainwashed” is not on. At least I’m a member of the reality based community and don’t think Krishna was a real person or that the Mahabharata actually happened. Some of your fellow Hindus have also commented that your views are fairly bizarre. My views on India are not because I’m Pakistani (Hello, I’m American) but because I can read your own country’s news and see what you are doing to Kashmiris. It’s all out there in the public domain. There is no way to defend India’s behavior against Kashmiri Muslims. As someone with ancestry from the Kashmir Valley, obviously the way Kashmiri Muslims are treated upsets me very much.

Afghanistan et al may have been “centers of global civilization” in the distant past. But now civilization is entirely in Europe and America. Wake up and smell the coffee.

AnAn I agree with you that Afghans are a great people with a magnificent history behind them. At one time or another, they have forged empires as far away as India and Iran. It is a shame that such a fine race is split nearly vertically between two states – Afghanistan and Pakistan. Being minority in both countries, it has lost its strength. Add the constant shenanigans of GHQ deep state in this affair, and it is clear why Afghanistan is in the mess it is in today.

Afghans are a nation by any definition. (I use the term Afghan as a synonym for Pashtun). Same race, same language, same religion. Heck, they even claim descent from a single ancestor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qais_Abdur_Rashid. How many nations on this earth can boast the feelings of such a close brotherhood.

Afghanistan’s natural boundaries are up to the banks of Indus. West of Indus is the land of Afghanistan, and east of Indus is India. Pakistan is an artificial state straddling both sides of Indus. It is an unwieldy aggregation of constantly quibbling different races which will come apart sooner or later.

Pakistan is not going to come apart. The best chance you had to make that happen was 1971. (West) Pakistan is a coherent entity. There is an army with nuclear weapons that is going to defend the Durand Line on one side and the Radcliffe Line on the other. We will not give up one inch of Pakistani territory. Whether you think The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is “artificial” is beside the point. At some level all states are artificial. I will refer you to Benedict Anderson’s book “Imagined Communities”.

You seem to be using the word “race” where you mean ethnicity. These are two different concepts in Anthropology. Don’t confuse them.

Aren’t Pashtuns a plurality (if not a majority) within the borders of Afghanistan?

My best estimate is that Pashtuns are about 37% of Afghans. And 8% are neither Pashtun nor Tajik nor Hazara Shia nor Uzbek [including our best friends from Nuristan]. The vast majority of Pashtuns live in Pakistan and India. Shah Rukh Khan and many of India’s greatest heroes are Pashtuns.

Qais Abdur Rashid appears to have been a great man. Can you share stories about him? I love how all the Pashtuns descend from Dawood Malik (King David) mentor king Saul.

>Aren’t Pashtuns a plurality (if not a majority) within the borders of Afghanistan?

Yes, but minorities make a sizable chunk of the demographics. Enough that they’ve begun to start questioning the idea of Afghanistan being a Pashtun state and demanding a reconstruction of its national identity, which we saw being played out during the controversy over the new ID cards. Some of the biggest non-Pashtun leaders came out against the government intention of calling all citizens Afghans, a few even talking of civil war and we have the galaxy brains here talking about Pakistan collapsing.

Interesting, I didn’t realize that the idea of Afghanistan being a Pashtun state was in question. I don’t really care about Afghanistan one way or another as long as they don’t cause problems for Pakistan.

Pakistan is not collapsing any time soon, despite the wet dreams of some people on this forum. Pakistan Army will make sure things remain under control.

Mir is right that many Afghans currently are discussing renaming their country. Personally I would rather they focused on increasing Afghan capacity, solving Daesh, Taliban, Pakistan; and delay discussing changing the name of Afghanistan until later.

>Mir is right that many Afghans currently are discussing renaming their country. Personally I would rather they focused on increasing Afghan capacity, solving Daesh, Taliban, Pakistan; and delay discussing changing the name of Afghanistan until later.

Come on, we both know ethnic tension in Afghanistan goes beyond a simple name. Tajiks and Pashtuns have completely different perspectives on the two issues you suggested Afghanistan fix. Tajiks have little to no concern for the condition of Pashtuns on the other side of the border of the legitimacy of the Durand Line which has driven Afghan relations with Pakistan. Nor do they share any of the sympathy Afghan Pashtuns have for the Taliban. Pashtuns think that Afghan talibs are their brothers and are the biggest proponents of mainstreaming them while Tajiks are concerned that any such efforts would dilute their own power. The country should be united before it even starts to figure out how to deal with Pakistan and the Taliban.

Pakistani “psychosis” is extremely offensive. Have you just decided you want to piss me off?
You are not qualified to say anything about the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Have you even visited the country once? Just for the love of god, stop. Stick to economics, which you are presumably better at. If you bullshit about my country and my people, I will come back at you ten times stronger.
We all know I have better verbal skills than you, being that I was actually an English Literature student not an “economist”.

Kashmir is a Disputed Territory. It has been referred to the UN by Pandit Nehru himself. The “India-Pakistan” question remains a subject for the UN. Even if you take Pakistan out of the picture (you are never getting AJK and G-B by the way), you will still have to deal with Kashmiri Muslims in the Valley who hate your guts. You can give them enough autonomy so that they don’t feel they are oppressed by a Hindu country. It’s up to you how you solve the problem.

Asides from AJK and G-B, no part of Pakistan’s territory is subject to dispute. Even Afghanistan has been forced to accept the Durand Line, no matter what they say for public consumption in their own country. They’re never getting Peshawar and Quetta and India is never getting Gilgit and Muzaffarabad. Deal with it.

Burhan Wani was a beautiful young Kashmiri Muslim murdered by the Indian Army. I don’t approve of his use of violence as part of the resistance struggle, but jokes about him are highly tasteless. Please desist.

He was not murdered but died fighting for Allah with an AK in one hand and Holy Quran in the other. He led the righteous Jihad to oust the Kuffar from Muslim Lands. A true Mujahid-e Hizb-e Allah who attained glorious Shahadat and is now in the blessed company of Ahl al-Jannah enjoying the delicacies on offer incl delectable huris 🙂

All Kashmiri Jihadi brothers will be blessed with Wani’s glory, one funeral at a time.

After going thru all the posts by this guy Kabir, it is apparent that he…

1. hates Afghans
2. hates Indians
3. claims to be a highly proud of Pakistan…
4…yet suffers from inferiority complex when comparing Pakistan with USA/UK. (Mentioned multiple times that Western countries are superior to his beloved Pakistan)
5. Seems to be more worried about Kashmiris than Kashmiris themselves.
6. Seems to be having too much time on his hands judging by his long posts and music recitals. (Hang on guys. This is important clue!)
7. betrays Muhajir mentality. (bends over backwards to prove his loyalty to Pakistan)

Snake Charmer, Kabir is an excellent vocalist. He is exceptionally good at what he does and might produce extraordinary original new musical pieces in the future. I also don’t think attacking him for ” having too much time on his hands judging by his long posts” is neither accurate or appropriate. I would remove item 6 from your seven item list.

Burhan wani was notorious for molesting girls. Indian army sepoy was much more handsome and beautiful than burhan and much more braver and humble. He was a muslim too. These bloodsuckers kashmiris living on food subsidised by india, taxes paid by jammu and ladakh will always feel that world owes them something. They will live in misery throughout their life as Pakistani establishment is too coward and we indians will never leave kashmir whatever the cost.Its true we want the land not kashmiris. They can leave for Pakistan and establish their nijam-e-mustafa there and murder kaffirs. If pak has guts then why don’t they fulfill first condition for referendum and vacate the territory occupied by them. It will put onus on india to fulfill the demand of referendum.

Lol, we are not ethnically kashmiri but i live in kashmiri colony in delhi and know quite well the situation under which they had to flee kashmir. Unlike u, they were actually born and bred in kashmir but had to become refugee ib their own country. It is futile to fight indian army as indian army has behaved quite ethically till now. They can also use fighter planes and bomb their own population like they do in Pakistan. Our religious shrine of amarnath is in kashmir Valley, we can’t leave it ever and be dependent on pak’s whims to visit it. For example china banned hindu pilgrims from visiting kailash mansarovar during doklam standoff. We have already provided enough land for islamists to rule,one who can’t tolerate other religions can always leave for pak.

The land belongs to Kashmiri Muslims who are the majority population. They were the majority population even before 1947. Your Dogra Maharaja massacred thousands of them and they fled to Sialkot and Azad Kashmir. You cannot have the land without the people. Sorry about that. The Valley will become independent one day. Unless India wants to be like Israel. If that’s the company you want to keep, I can only feel sorry for you.

“Refugees in their own country”– Kashmiris don’t consider “India” to be their country. Get the message. You are not wanted in Srinagar.

I am not talking about kashmiri muslims and you know it. Kashmiri muslims may be majority but kashmir can never be independent. When india’s economy was failing and there were khalistan, maoist, northeast, kashmir insurgencies at their peak, india managed to hold on. As we become economically stronger, people would stop speak on kashmir as they do in case of china. Kashmiri people can go on about independence and destroy their lives for caliphate but it is never going to get fulfilled.