The UK has voted to leave the European Union, confounding the polls, the "experts" and the British establishment in the biggest turnout for a vote here in 24 years. Prime Minister David Cameron announced his resignation at 8:30am this morning.
The count stands at 51.9 per cent Leave, and 48.1 per cent remain – and more than a …

Farage is married to a German woman, he knows the difference between racism and nationalism. Do you know the difference between UKIP and the National Front? The trick has been to propagandize against UKIP as though its the National Front, and you seem to have fallen for that.

"Put Britain First" is not a terrorist cry. It's the majority view of UK.

"Many Christians object to Muslims saying "god is great" but are quite happy to say hallelujah which effectively means the same thing (and even refers to the exact same God)."

Wrong on ALL counts. Allahu akbar means "God is greater" not God is great. Meaning to Islam that Allah is greater than any other god.

"Hallelujah" is from the Hebrew word Hallel and is used to express praise or joy, the Greek form is Alleluia.

Allah is NOT the same God of Christians, The Quran describes Allah as the best deceiver there is, a liar who is not above using the same evil and wicked schemes of his opponents. For example, the Quran calls Allah a makr, in fact the best makr there is: But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54; cf. 8:30.

In the Catholic and Christian faiths God cannot be deceived nor does he deceive. "We believe 'because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived'" (Catechism of the Catholic Church #156) The Muslim god Allah is NOT the same as the Christian God.

"If a racist like Farage is happy about it as well then you know you're in real trouble."

Are you another idiot who can't tell the difference between race and nationality?

No, however unless discussing technical details it's usually best to communicate in commonly understood or used language, even if it's misused.

So how would you define a "race"? :) [honest question] A set of people sharing a similar average skin tone, a set of people where the genetic similarity is over a certain percentage from another arbitrary set of people, a group of genetically varied individuals who happen to believe in the same invisisible friends or those through luck or circumstance happened to be born within the same, often rather arbitrary, geographic area of the same planet (or where their parents or other ancestors were born there)?

Farage = Huguenot vs.DNA

"Farage... ...surname is French Huguenot and so the vast likelihood is that he's a descendant of migrants from France."

DNA testing often reveals that family trees have branched off in unexpected directions. Although his surname is Huguenot, he's just as likely to have undocumented Polish plumbers, gypsies, and lizard people in his actual, biological, ancestral lineage.

He is financing one way or another some of that across Europe in a tit-for-tat response for Ukraine and the sanctions. While his fingerprints are not on the money trail leading to Farage and Co (still, one wonders why Farage refuses to publish his tax return), he has given a 26M load to Le Pen as well as quite a few handouts to other "interesting suspects".

Just like certain people refuse to admit that the current government in London was very deliberately elected by the majority of voters in the majority of electorates those with inflated opinions on their intelligence and personal value will not accept that the same applies to this referendum.

Re: We all know what happened

Bigotry exists on both sides if you ask me. Yes there are bigots and racists in the leave camp. But to tar just over half the population that way...seriously?

At no point did I suggest that all Leave voters were either racists or bigots.

However you cannot deny that a significant portion of the country voted to Leave based purely on the Immigration issue, and the completely false premise that "we can control our own borders now" as I heard quoted on the radio this morning.

Re: We all know what happened

"However you cannot deny that a significant portion of the country voted to Leave based purely on the Immigration issue, and the completely false premise that "we can control our own borders now" as I heard quoted on the radio this morning."

There may be an element of that, however, do the results back that up?

Given the results, I would suggest that areas of the country that haven't felt the benefits of "the economy" over the last two/three terms of government and are used to local companies making statements about the need for X or Y before closing a local factory are a little jaded by the remain campaign.

The turnout alone vs general elections suggested people cared about the result because they thought it would make a difference which begs the question why?

If this is framed purely as an immigration issue and the economic/establishment issues are ignored, then the UK is in for troubled times indeed

Re: We all know what happened

"the completely false premise that "we can control our own borders now""

That's not false - it's absolutely correct - we CAN now fully control our borders - and we couldn't from within the EU.

If our government make the required effort and investment to do so is another matter - Don't forget that Labour under Bliar deliberately let in hundreds of thousands from 3rd world countries in the hope of gaining votes....

Re: We all know what happened

That's not false - it's absolutely correct - we CAN now fully control our borders - and we couldn't from within the EU.

WRT controlling borders, I presume there's a chance that a Brexit now means that the agreement we have with the French that means UK border control have a station in France (and possibly, by implication, caused the migrant "village" to spring up in Calais) could come to an end.

How much would the French government like to wave through anyone heading to Britain and let them deal with us in our own "controlled" borders. Therefore moving all the migrants, camps and troubles from Calais to Dover?

Re: We all know what happened

How much would the French government like to wave through anyone heading to Britain and let them deal with us in our own "controlled" borders. Therefore moving all the migrants, camps and troubles from Calais to Dover?

Our agreements with France over border control are not reliant on the EU and do not involve the EU.

Re: We all know what happened

What it is come to is a large percentage of the country are not necessarily racists, but idiots who bought the lies that the Leave campaigners unashamedly spun.

Leaving the EU will not address any of the challenges facing the UK, and the rest of Europe, in the 21st century. It will just make all of us the weaker in tackling them.

But people believed it when they were told that leaving the EU would protect us from an imminent invasion of millions of Turks, and put £350m a week into the NHS. Both of these were unapologetic lies that they are already started back pedalling on.

And guess what? Those funny accented people that you have been fooled into thinking are the source of your woes? They're not going back to where they came from. So if that is what you voted for, you've been a mug. They've now got jobs and are a part of the economy that this vote has done its best to cripple. No-one is going to force them to leave, any more than the millions of UK citizens in Europe are going to be forced back home.

And if you trust the likes of Boris or, god help us, Farage, to set up a fair society with the same progressive regulations the EU has spent decades creating, you're an even bigger mug.

Re: We all know what happened

"What it is come to is a large percentage of the country are not necessarily racists, but idiots who bought the lies that the Leave campaigners unashamedly spun."

I think roughly 52% of the country would say "fuck you" to that unbelievably arrogant statement.

Just because the country voted to leave the EU (not exactly resoundingly voted but there we go) against YOUR personal beliefs does not make them idiots, racists, biogots or any of the other deeply bitter and nasty epithets people seem to be chucking around right now. You choose to live in this so-called Democracy, how about dealing with it rather than being unpleasant about the majority of it when things don't go your way?

To my mind, the real disgrace here is simply this. We were told to make the biggest single socio-economic and political decision of the the next god knows how many generations and BOTH sides gave absolutely zero credible or useful facts. The whole shower of them both resorted to childish "he's lying, no he's lying more" school ground BS. We deserved better and they failed to deliver.

The whole damn lot of them should be sacked. Every single one of our Political Overlords, regardless of stance, should be out on their ear for epically failing the people by failing to prepare them properly for the enormity of this decision.

@Mr Commenty McComentface -- Re: We all know what happened

Well said. I see the same BS here in the States. Just shouting and fingerpointing. No real discussion by any side. I daresay that the end of civilization and democracy as we knew it are coming. No longer do we have intelligent debates. We have sound bites. We have blame given for everything and no responsibility taken for anything. Examining agendas is at best, difficult since usually one should "follow the money", but many times, that's very well hidden by those the crave power.

The world has changed. I'm not sure it's for the betterment of the population at this point or for the betterment of those who seek to be masters, either politically or monetarily.

Re: We all know what happened

Re: We all know what happened

What it has come to is that a large percentage of the country are not necessarily racists, but complete idiots who bought the lies that the STAY campaigners unashamedly spun.

These were the same lies the anti EU campaigners told when Britain first joined the EU (or common market as it was then). They were lies then and they are lies now.

Did Lloyd's go to Europe? NO

Did any English banks or businesses move their head offices to Europe? NO

Etc Etc

Does the EU prohibit the making of old style English sausages, bananas over a certain size, etc, etc, from now being made or imported into the UK. YES

Staying in the EU will not address any of the challenges facing the UK in the 21st century.

BUT it will make it FAR easier in tackling them because the dead hands in Brussels will no longer be trying to balance 20 nations differing agendas. This means that decisions that now take years will only take months.

Those funny accented people that you up market Londoners never see, so cannot understand are the source of a percentage of our woes like a shortage of medical and educational facilities because the population has far outstripped the taxpayer base? They're not going back to where they came from, and no-one expects them to BUT others are not going keep flooding in.

This reduction will SLOWLY cause those here to assimilate more and cause many of the younger ones to adopt British ideals and, as the taxpayer base expands as a percentage of the population, allow for better education and medicine to again be provided.

So if that is what you voted against, you've been a mug.

Yes, many have got jobs and are a part of the economy that this vote has done its best to revive. No-one is going to require them to leave, any more than the millions of UK citizens in Europe are going to be forced back home.

And if you the EU has set up a fair society with progressive regulations you're an even bigger mug.

Re: We all know what happened

No. Huge swathes of the Asian population voted remain. And you have no idea of the racism they rejoice in.

The koran is 80% hate speech, says one ex-muslim

Indias new goverment is profoundly anti-pakistan and anti-islam.

Sikh-pakistan gang rivalries are common on our streets.

You may have been conditioned to see racism as the property of the unsophisticated white lower classes. Don't be fooled. The unsophisticated brown lower classes are ten times worse...

Just look at the middle east! Its it a Peaceful Utopia? Hell no. Its seething along racial and religious fault lines, Communities that have been peaceful (if repressed) are now on the boil, and bringing their ethnic conflicts with them as they flee their homelands.

Why is xenophobia so common?

Could it be, that deep down in our subconscious, we know it makes sense? That the strange tribe is more likley to trespass on our property and mores, simply because it sees us as strangers, and has no loyalty towards us?

The world is not that simple, and all the easy problems were solved thousands of years ago. What we have left are the really hard problems, and there are two right stinkers in play right now.

One is summarised by Quis custodies ipsos custodiet? - How do we keep people we have appointed as public servants, from trying to initially rule us, and finally exploit us? The Iron Law of Oligarchy says that they inevitably will. Our only defence is democracy, and perhaps once in a lifetime, it really matters.

The second problem is the scarce resource problem : In general if there is enough of everything an entity needs to grow, it will grow. If it runs out of something vital, it cannot grow. Humanity has experienced dramatic and explosive growth, because it was short of one thing - energy - and the industrial revolution harnessed first coal, then oil, to allow it to reach new levels of population. That growth has, in the West largely halted for the last decade and a half. WE have run or are running out of something.

The politics and economics of expansion are well understood. Why not be nice to strangers. There's plenty of room and an extra pair of hands is always welcome. The politics of contraction are not so nice. Faced with an inability to bake a bigger cake, the game is zero sum. People end up fighting over crumbs.

Simple liberal ideology says we should divide the cake equally (but somehow we seem to be dividing it less equally the more 'liberal ideology' is in play,. and its the liberal ideologues who seem to get most of it), but is this, in the end, a successful strategy?

Which is more likely to survive? A society that has at least some well fed, well educated and healthy people, or a society where everyone is uniformly embroiled in poverty, ignorance and disease?

IN 6 decades I have watched adherence to these liberal ideals, transform the country where I live from one which had a privileged core of people who were better off in every sense and better able to manage its affairs, to one of almost uniform mediocrity. IN which almost no one is capable of managing its affairs, which seems to me why they are content to let Brussels do it for them.

And if you think I am arguing for am elite, damned right I am. What do you think we have now? When Diane Abbott, social justice warrior and one time Corbyn squeeze, gets to send her kids to a private school? The iron law of oligarchy says there will always be an elite, so stop believing there shouldn’t be one.

That is not the real problem. The real problem is in a time of diminishing expansion and scarce resources, what sort of elite should we have and how should we control them?

Well it seems to me - YMMV - that what we need is an elite that has the best problems solving ability of all, a very broad range of experience and is bound by a code of honour - my gosh, what a very old fashioned idea - a code of honour that says 'you can have your power and your wealth and your privilege, but it comes with a price tag attached, and that's called noblesse oblige The sworn duty of the elite to protect their people, come what may, no matter how squalid and plebby you think they are, because there but for the grace of god, go you.

And if you think Jean Claude Drunker, has an ounce of honour anywhere in his alcohol pickled body, you are welcome to emigrate.

Brexit isn't about what you think it is. It is a deep subconscious reaction to modern events and modern life, and a deep sense of anger and betrayal of the people by elites who have no honour, who have broken the oldest social contract in the book, that says 'I will work for you, and support you, and let you have all the trappings of wealth and power and privilege, if you look after me'

And the elite have trampled all over that contract. Have taken the wealth and the power and te priviilege,. moved it offshore and to Brussels and left the people to rot.

And to add insult to injury, they have said 'and if you dont like it, there's millions worse off than you who would kill for a chance to have what you have'

And imported them, and they have killed.

Which raises the final point to question the received wisdom of politically correct virtue signalling Leftism.

Does charity begin elsewhere? Or should we put our own people before those of other nations?

Well you can think in whatever ideological and abstract moral terms you like, but if you put other nations citizens in front of your own, you can't expect a huge amount of support from your own can you?

In the end what is likely to count is which societies survive and prosper and which disintegrate. Societies bound together by strong ties who feel like one big family, and who strongly resist forces that tend to disintegrate them, that feature elites who have a sense of responsibility, rather than arrogance, will prosper.

My experience is that those who voted remain, all belong to a single urban class, who, by and large are doing all right, and think themselves to be pretty smart and educated. And who haven't seen their jobs taken by immigrants, or their schools overrun by people who dont speak English, or their factories closed because EU directives have made them unprofitable. Or just left to rot on the sink estates of the North, or had EU inspired gypsy camps or wind farms shoved next to their housing estates.

Of course you may think that these people are beneath contempt, bigoted racists, and don't matter.

Unfortunately, whilst they have been deprived of almost every other form of political power, someone made a mistake and left them a vote.

You who voted remain, you are the parvenus, the 'I'm all right Jack's' who have been upwardly mobile, arrived at affluence and been told that you are indeed mighty smart. YIu have been issues with yoiur liberal left progressive rule book, you idolised Tony Blair, and you think you are so clever, and classless and free...well remember the next line in the song

'You are all ***Ing peasants as far as I can see'. Because you have no honour, no noblesse oblige. Faced with Gillian Duffy, all you can do is dismiss the entire experience of her life, her political aspirations, her sincere worries and concerns with 'just some racist bigot'.

You are the privileged. You are about to learn the price of privilege. That if you do not take care of those less privileged than yourself, they will not support you. And that means respecting their experience, and listening to them, and sincerely trying to make their lives better.

THAT is the social contract that makes societies that prosper. Not some hand wavy airy fairy 'progressive' ideology that craps all over them because they aren't as smart and sophisticated as you are.

Re: We all know what happened

It wouldn't surprise me at all if half the population were bigots and racists. In fact, I'd be surprised if the proportion is that low. Suspicion and fear of those outside our own tribe is not merely a cultural phenomenon, it's baked into our DNA. We evolved with it. Even if you recognise that, and even if you accept that this trait is a problem in the modern world, it's still a difficult tendency to overcome, and an easy one to stimulate in others.

Re: We all know what happened

It couldn't be that people just had issues with EU in general or thought that the on-going economic crisis in Southern Europe is an unacceptable situation of which the EU holds a significant amount of blame on. Nope... Racism.

It couldn't be that people think the EU interfers too much in the UK and what UK gives up for EU membership just ain't worthwhile.... Nope, Racism.

It couldn't be that people believe that immigration needs sensible control of which the EU obliterates... placing intense strain on established services and allowing foreign criminals and benefit cheats into the country...... oh sure, cas it's just Racism.

It has been clear this entire debate where the majority of the bigotry has come from and that is actually the Remain side whom ad hominem the leave side by calling the entire thing racist and not wanting to actually engage in logical and sensible debate.

"on-going economic crisis in Southern Europe"

Just it's not EU to have created it. The blame is on a string of corrupt, inefficient, greedy *local* governments that created it breaking the EU rules (i.e. debt control) while altering the evidences. *Local* government elected by citizens who just wanted to suck more money out of their privileges, subsidies, and corruption. Out of the taxes from of honest, hard working people, better if those from abroad, who can't vote for the *local* government. The EU acted to stop that. It did some mistakes (i.e. too high interests on leases), sure.

Italy has more 10,000 state/region/town -controlled companies. A large percentage of them with more high-paid administrators and executives than employees. Most of them in the red, requiring tax payers money to survive - money that can't be used for investments to get past the crisis.

But nobody wants to close them, because they are a huge reserve where politicians can find highly paid, cozy jobs for friends and relatives. And that's just an example.

Of course, it's the EU to blame. Listen to those politicians who wants to maintain the status quo because it's from it they get the most advantages. The EU is asking them to renounce to their unethical, if not illegal, privileges, and they will fight to "death" to avoid it. Having to find a job to earn money? Are you mad?

Southern Europe - I live in Italy - won't be saved by more money spent or lax rules - they will just be funneled and used by corrupt governments into buying more short-term electoral consensus to maintain their extremely high paid seats (if you believe eurocrats are paid too much, look at those in Italy....) - leaving the root issues exactly as before.

The four bank who went bankrupt in Italy, and the other two the barely escaped it (zeroing their share values, meanwhile), are a perfect example of extremely bad *local* management too often colluded with *local* politicians.

Thereby, yes, believing EU is to be blamed for what It didn't, it's a form of racism. It's bad just because it's the EU.

Re: "on-going economic crisis in Southern Europe"

Just it's not EU to have created it. The blame is on a string of corrupt, inefficient, greedy *local* governments that created it breaking the EU rules

Local governments encouraged by the EU, through money and grants for "regional identities", because it isn't the interests of Brussels to have strong, united contries able to oppose the EU. Better to encourage fragmentation under the "divide and conquer" approach. A UK squabbling over devolution and Scottish independence, or a Spain trying to fend off Catalan secession, is going to be too preoccupied with internal divisions to present a united front to Brussels.

Re: "on-going economic crisis in Southern Europe"

Actually, Catalonia is one of the richest area of Spain. It has the higher GDP, but surprisingly people in Madrid and Basque Country earn more per capita. Ask you why...

The banks who went bad in Italy are in Veneto, Emillia-Romagna, Toscana and Marche, especially the first two among the richest regions in Italy and among the wealthiest in Europe as well. Regions that pay in taxes a lot more of what they get back.

Unlike Scotland, they want independence exactly because they are tired to see the wealth they produce dissipated by inept and corrupt governments in other areas. And they see very little EU funds. The EU is not the biggest problem. Income tax, VAT and other taxes are asked by the state, not the EU.

It looks your knowledge of "southern Europe" is very limited. Its not the EU which created that situation, it predates the EU and goes back to the XIX century, if not earlier like in Spain (which had much more issues in Basque Country).

Greece, AFAIK, has no much issue about "regional identity", but its squabbles with Turkey about Cyprus and other boundary territories which is also used by state officials to ensure military expenditures (military people and their families vote) and related bribes are kept high enough.

But it is true that a lot of EU funds for "depressed areas" are also dissipated to gain electoral consensus, without a proper auditing by EU, because it will put it on a true collision course with many governments that uses EU funds to cover their inefficiencies and keep people calm. And because EU is made of officials appointed by the state governments, officials often from the same areas who obtain the funds... guess what happens? And where's the problem? In the EU or the single states?

Re: "on-going economic crisis in Southern Europe"

@"Italy has more 10,000 state/region/town -controlled companies. A large percentage of them with more high-paid administrators and executives than employees. Most of them in the red, requiring tax payers money to survive"

Italy has a 4.52 billion euro read *surplus*, UK has a 3.3 billion GBP trade *deficit*. When you talk about corruption, you miss the insane amount of money that was printed and shoved into worthless derivatives to prop up the city boys.

Re: We all know what happened

@R3sistance

"It couldn't be that people just had issues with EU in general or thought that the on-going economic crisis in Southern Europe is an unacceptable situation of which the EU holds a significant amount of blame on. "

No, seriously.

Move to somewhere out of your normal comfort zone and you will see. I have done so twice.

For 3 years I lived on a council estate with available housing as nobody wanted to move there, resident's burnt the fences to keep warm (when they didn't burn boots & shoes, yes really, suprising what people talk about while waiting for the bus). From there I moved to traditional manual labour working class city with a decimated tranditional industry. I still live in the second place and stayed because everyone was so frendly, however, I'm white, I would have gone home after the 6 months I needed to the there if I wasn't.

Before you accuse me of being middle class or elitest and not knowing poverty, put down your stones, let the man who has needed declared himself destitute for a £20 cash handout cast the first stone. I don't blame the people I live with, I blame the, so called, leaders. They are scum that later litter our lives to benefit their advantage, who else would persuade the poor to blame those who are poorer still.

The leave campaign have stirred this up to suit their own agenda, it won't stop here.

I actually saw people in my polling station with pens in hand! FFS, as if an organisation with a vote changing agenda would rub out individual votes! There are far more than a small percentage of gullible and racists, they are all Leave needed to brainwash.

Re: We all know what happened

"No, seriously.

Move to somewhere out of your normal comfort zone and you will see. I have done so twice."

You made no real point here, other than, there is a few racists. As stated, people labeling all of Leave as racist and bigots is nothing other than an ad hominem attack that adds nothing of value. The remain campaign did nothing compelling at all and gave no real arguments for remaining in Europe but rather attacked the leave campaign.

Now let me go further to say that I never called anybody elitist or middle class, so thank you for your lack of anything meaningful...

Re: We all know what happened

Yes.

As someone who felt Remain would have helped us better, it seems to me that now we're leaving there is a real need to make Britain a better place. We're British, we make the best of things and muddle through and we need to stick with this.

But we also need to talk. A lot of people voted Leave because they were angry and close to the edge and that didn't happen because of the EU - if anything they were probably benefiting from EU investment - but their sentiments were whipped up by a particularly malevolent campaign and they were already close to the surface because of decades of cascading failure on the part of multiple governments. We need to be able to engage with these people, to help them find a positive direction. I don't know what that will take, but I don't think it exists on the current political landscape. Post Brexit Britain will be what we make it, so maybe we all need to work on making it something amazing, rather than the disaster the Leave campaign so urgently desire.

Re: We all know what happened

If you look at the demographics Brexit was supported by people 50+ largely - this suggests an element of nostalgia for something that is disappearing or is imagined to be disappearing - while this is partly understandable - there is a large element of racism in a portion of that age range across all income classes. (As per undercover reports from my elderly but liberal parents who live in a very affluent area in the North of England which was pro brexit). To deny that this played a significant part in the effectiveness of the leave campaign when the economic case for staying was pretty overwhelming is willful blindness. I'm not saying that all brexit campaigners are racists but its impact was there. Also reading the daily mail for decades doesn't help rational decision making.

Re: Re: We all know what happened

Re: We all know what happened

Three months ago I said:

There are positive arguments for staying as part of the EU but I've yet to hear anyone make them. "No Tracy, don't leave. Stay and make a go of it or he'll cut up rough." isn't the winning argument you all seem to think it is. In fact from what I've seen it's flat out counter-productive.

After watching the campaign and the aftermath I think I can add: If you want to convince people of your ideas don't talk about them as though they are the shit on your shoe.

Re: We all know what happened

2% growth everywhere in the world at the same time forever is impossible.

Our "Core" values these days are built on increasing monetary wealth and nothing else.. That's how you end up with hate. I love the idea of socialism but generally it fails in worse ways - so for now we will thrive with the hate I guess, and everyone can become more insular.

Re: We all know what happened

I have been to Frankfurt and found it a very nice city with public transport, parks, culture, good infrastructure, including a major international airport.etc. Depending on how the break up actually develops I can easily see well paid financial experts happily moving there. As usual, the devil is in the details. My concern is I do not see any motivation for the EU to strike a friendly bargain for the UK out of concern it would only encourage similar exits from other countries.

Re: We all know what happened

@ Terrance Brennan

"I do not see any motivation for the EU to strike a friendly bargain for the UK"

They want us out. Not now but yesterday. The EU is not popular. It is not seen as a great and amazing saviour. The EU is afraid (as it has been all along) that one out of the door shows the others the way. There is a queue to leave and the EU is desperate for us to go as quickly as possible. And we could easily do so, for the right terms.

Re: We all know what happened

Re: We all know what happened

Manufacturing might actually get better off. It's the financial consultants, no longer free to tout their services around Europe free of barriers, who are likely to suffer. And your barista will likely sound suspiciously more local, rather than, say, Romanian, in a few years' time.

Re: We all know what happened

> And wheather there is any mfg left in the UK or it will become a nation of "financial consultants" and baristas.

I give it a month at most before most of the vehicle makers say they're off to pastures continental.

One of the more immediate impacts of the Brexit vote is that the EU can simply _cancel_ (or suspend with immediate effect) programs investing funding into the UK regions - you know, the same ones who mostly voted "leave" (ahem: Wales, Cornwall, ex-industrial North) along with farming subsidies. The UK is now locked off the table on that so there's absolutely nothing which can be done.

Buyer's remorse simply isn't enough to describe what's about to happen next. Cornwall is already starting to realise just what they've done.

As for the "at least 2 years" mantra, anyone who looks at article 50 will realise it's at MOST 2 years to negotiate an exit and the EU doesn't have to care about the state of UK law or civil service and won't care if the door hits us on the way out.

Re: We all know what happened

The trouble is, other than the helots turning up each day to clean the swimming pool and vacuum the house, there weren't that many people with funny accents in Hampstead or Kensington, but in other parts of the country the local culture has changed utterly without the consent of the people who used to live there.

The thing that happened ...

is that a democratic country had a democratic election on a clearly defined topic. I am not happy about the result, but I think the election result and those who voted deserve respect.

Now there'll be the British experiment outside of the EU. It'll be interesting to see how a major European country will do on its own without oodles of oil money (the Norwegian way), oodles of banking money (the Swiss way), or a fishing-based economy (the Iceland way). Everybody in the EU will break out the popcorn to watch. And no, you British folks cannot have a handful, you don't belong anymore.

Now, concerning that Wembley goal, let's just clarify once and for all that is was a tragic referee error. You'd have deserved to win that game fair and square, how sad that it didn't turn out that way....

Those who voted leave will probably find the things they thought they were concerned about won't change in any meaningful way and the things they should have been concerned about will change in a significant way and for the worse.

Well I guess Farrage has done his work, he can now retire the UKIP, as they have met the solitary goal they had set, so a little silver lining as the pound drops like a stone and the stock market is whistling as it falls. I hope white van man enjoys the increase in the price of petrol they have voted for.

"They'll rebrand themselves as the people's party and press for an early General Election"

I'm not sure about that. I doubt many of the Leave campaigners had any plans beyond the referendum except "magic happens".

I'm not surprised, BTW, that the leading Leave Conservatives wrote to Cameron just before the event saying that he should stay on whatever happened. They belatedly realised they hadn't a clue what to do if they won & wanted someone to come along and look after them. Who do they have in their own ranks? IDS who has presided over the on-going car crash of Universal Credit? Gove who seems to have got up the nose of everyone working in the areas he's overseen as a minister? Boris, who was the great cheer-leader of the City that may currently be doing nicely (in the short term they can always make money) but are in for bleak times in the longer run? No wonder Boris is going round saying that they don't have to invoke Article 50 any time soon. Well, they and Farage have now got what they asked for and I doubt they're going to enjoy it for long.

Well going by the state of the pound, it certainly fucked over our bit of it this morning.

And I've already heard the word "repatriation" used in connection with those European workers over here. Which is interesting (YMMV) given the most highly respected doctor at our local surgery is Finnish.

And I've already heard the word "repatriation" used in connection with those European workers over here.

Which is complete bollocks. There are twice as many EU workers in the UK as there UK workers in the rest of Europe. No country, including the UK, is going to be so stupid as to start playing that game, the resulting tit-for-tat would be a guaranteed lose-lose result. It's probably also illegal under "acquired rights" from the existing treaties anyway (but IANAL)

The big question now is whether the "remainers", in the UK and Europe, are willing to make the result work, or are they just going to whinge about how terrible it all is, while doing sweet FA to actually solve the problems as they arise?

At least Cameron did the right thing, if he truly was in the "remain" camp he'd never be able to put his heart into negotiating a proper exit strategy, especially since we've already seen how useless he is at negotiating for something he said he does believe in.

I'm not sure Boris would be an improvement, though. Perhaps better to find a safe pair of hands as PM (from where?) and leave Boris as the bolshie, French-speaking, leader of "team negotiate Europe".

The big question now is whether the "remainers", in the UK and Europe, are willing to make the result work, or are they just going to whinge about how terrible it all is, while doing sweet FA to actually solve the problems as they arise?

LMFTFY

The big question now is whether the "Brexiteers" have the ability to make the result work, or are they just going to stand around wondering how the hell they ended up there when at the closing of the polls, everyone had thought the Remain side had won. Will the Brexiteers actually be able to achieve any more than Sweet FA now that they need to do more than deliver sound bites to actually solve the problems as they arise?

The Remain portion of the campaign/political class has no mandate - the electorate charged the Brexiteers with taking action and it is up to the politicians of that flavour to now pick up the baton and get all the ducks lined up and lead the charge (to mix a metaphor or two.)

I'm genuinely bemused by the down vote. Assuming that the down vote indicates agreement with Phil's original paragraph, that's analogous to saying that after the last general election, it was incumbent upon Labour to bring forward policies that would improve the lot of the UK electorate - but they (Labour) are not the government.

The Remain portion of the campaign/political class has no mandate - the electorate charged the Brexiteers with taking action and it is up to the politicians of that flavour to now pick up the baton and get all the ducks lined up and lead the charge

Very true. Brexit was never the solution to the EU, it's just the opportunity to find that solution, if people are willing to work together to do so. That will take hard work from both Remain and Leave camps.

"On a more serious note : I'm not British, but what I see on forums is indeed a lot of heated discussion, generalization, and ad hominem attacks."

And this was "vote remain" did all thoughout their campaign, which is entirely why "Leave" won.

Both sides were fighting different elections. Remain was fighting in the westminster bubble on mass media in this bizzare gladotorial sport between personalities whilst barely discussing the issues except as throwaway comments declaring that their opinion was the one truth and that no discussion or dissenting opinion was allowed.

In my town, the offical remain campaigns major activity was visiting in a sodding huge bus with very few people on it which stayed for a couple of hours for some good pictures and a TV interview, while a bunch of activists stuck up posters with slogans on in places without permission, after which they buggered off, never to be seen or heard from again, leaving the couple of local activists to face pissed off local property owners saying "didn't we tell you not to stick posters on my building"? Guess what sort of effect that had on the morale of the local remain campaigners? I didn't see them campaigning again when out and about.

"Vote leave" meanwhile appeared to be campaigning in the local pub, in the country markets and on the streets door to door discussing the issues. Increasingly hysterical claims that leaving the EU would result in things such as WW3 were pulled apart, each aspect was examined in detail and then discussed to death over a pint.

If "vote remain" had of run a campaign like Jeremy Corbyn with a more civil and nuanced message that he was x% remain and x% leave because $reason then they'd have walked the campaign. Instead the remain campaigns zealots turned a portion of the undecided againt remain while an imported American style adversial message of "YOUR EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST US!!" did a great job of pushing them further towards "vote leave".

"it is up to the politicians of that flavour to now pick up the baton and get all the ducks lined up and lead the charge "

Thanks for the giggle. Now I have an image in my mind of a row of baton-wielding ducks in bowler hats attacking Angela :-)

On a more serious note : I'm not British, but what I see on forums is indeed a lot of heated discussion, generalization, and ad hominem attacks. I would have prefered it if you staid, but it wasn't my decision to make. I hope it works out for everyone, and that people on both sides start to fix things asap. And I don't mean just EU/UK, but also within the UK...

I am a bit saddened to see that the young voted in majority to stay, while older and especially retired people voted to leave. It's understandable, as the old people are more likely to remember the "good old times" before the EU. Also, maybe, they are less likely to be impacted by the turmoil, not needing to look for a job anymore. For the young who will have to live in the future, it's a bit of a slap in the face.

That said, I'm not sure that things will change as much as anybody predicts, considering the UK was already outside of many EU agreements like the Euro and Schengen, and it's probably going to keep close ties to the EU in any case. When most of your trade partners have the same standards, it's generally a good idea to follow the standards.

One thing that is likely to change is that Facebook et al. will find it a lot more difficult not to pay taxes on the revenue they make in UK. That's good, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. Also, who knows what will change for the worse?

I am personally disappointed that Nigel Farage is currently happy. Man's an asshole.

Re: RE: Nigel Farage...

"On the upside - Farage will now have to find a job, and it might shock him to find out he'll have to turn up to get paid."

Sorry, no. Farage is now needed more than ever before. In Brussels. The place where he has most of his political experience. Where he now must switch sides and defend the status quo, the indefensible, against all the anglo-sceptics. The indefensible, of course, will be the exit deal.

Why? Because the traditional UK-style smoke-filled room deals were ended long ago. Because European Union foreign policy is not like UK foreign policy. It is the business of the parliament. Any exit deal of any kind between the UK and the Member States will have to be successfully defended in the parliament. Against... the anglo-sceptics.

> while older and especially retired people voted to leave.

Re: > while older and especially retired people voted to leave.

I was confused by some preliminary stats I heard this morning on Irish radio.

People 18 to 24 ---- 54 % voted to leave

People 24 to 45 --- 48 % voted to leave

People 45 - above 35 % voted to leave

Like the referendum results, pretty much the opposite of what everyone expected. But it turned out this report was just plain wrong.

Assuming we can still trust ANY pollsters.

Because they also got it wrong.

So did the markets.

In sum, pretty much everyone got it wrong.

Even LeFarage conceded there would be a narrow Leave defeat last night.

For me, the most revealing info is that the regions with the less educated, less affluent, and mostly ignored (Scotland, England) populations are the ones who voted to Leave. And this time they tipped the balance.

Could that be the real message?

i.e.,: all the King's horses and all the King's men could not turn the vote around to a "correct" result.

Dave is stepping down, and a large number of British voters ignored everyone from Eddie Izard and Obama to the World Bank. Sounds like the people have spoken.

Peasant's revolt? Brave new world? One thing is certain, the trend is often your friend. With people like Trump, Marine Le Pen in the wings and (Sinn Fein now braying for re-unification) this could be just the beginning of a very interesting era.

One where a resentful, increasingly significant hoi polloi no longer believes that large organisations (like the EU) and incumbent elites are actually looking out for their best interests. Where they organise, vote and ally with people who speak their language.

This is unlikely to change until the marble holders actually change economic fundamentals by:

a) spending more money on local infrastructure, relevant education and job creation

b) cutting down on regulations

c) cutting down on national debt

d) improving productivity and promoting sensible investment

e) replace the robotic sector with real jobs and opportunities, instead of more welfare.

I struggle to see much evidence of the above within the EU or the US. The precariat is getting restless.

So the lackluster post-recession growth (0 to 2% pa) we are seeing worldwide is unlikely to improve soon. The old techniques of borrowing and printing more money, and creating jobs for the boys simply aren't working anymore. Instead we are creating less jobs (or increasing underemployment) and fuelling negative interest rates. The only thing missing here is bread and circuses.

From a historic and economic standpoint, this is completely fucked up. The elites don't know how to fix it, and many prefer to just cream more off the top. And meanwhile, entire generations are being sucked downwards into an ever-widening economic sinkhole. Sustain that.

I have no love for populists like Trump and Lafarge. But they are now driving a large bus full of increasingly discontented people, so perhaps it is time for a solid rethink (or reboot). Revolutions are rarely recognized in their own time.

Re: > while older and especially retired people voted to leave.

"I am a bit saddened to see that the young voted in majority to stay, while older and especially retired people voted to leave. It's understandable, as the old people are more likely to remember the "good old times" before the EU"

Old people know better

It's the case of, young people have still to mature and understand what's good for them. It is always good to listen to what old folk got to say, they've been there done it and now are wearing the the t-shirt.

It was a very, very close decision...

Re: It was a very, very close decision...

In most countries significant changes to the status quo require a two-thirds majority in a referendum. That way you are assured that the change is generally wanted.

Narrow margins lead to ongoing widespread discontent as people tell themselves that it should have gone the other way.

The big danger now is a lurch to the populist right in politics all over Europe - with 1930s style protectionism and isolationism. Those already disadvantaged will find themselves even worse off in both material things and other areas like privacy. A senior policeman was on BBC Radio 4 in the "The Bottom Line" last night. He was saying that "Minority Report" pre-crime incarceration of people was the right way to go.

Re: It was a very, very close decision...

"The big danger now is a lurch to the populist right in politics all over Europe"

That is my main fear - and that's a much bigger issue than today's FTSE, cost of a European holiday, or how the UK is going to trade internationally. I've always been an optimist and been delighted to have grown up at a time when Europe was not rent apart by war. Now I'm worried. And when things go wrong the UK will discover it really isn't an island anymore.

Incidentally I think the widespread discontent in society is largely due to the disconnect between the established political parties (who I think do a reasonable job) and parts of the electorate. But I'm a technical bod, not a political/communications analyst.

Re: It was a very, very close decision...

It was a close result, but it wasn't a close decision at all. Approximately 17.5 million voted leave, 16 million voted to remain, and 13 million didn't vote at all. This puts the Leave camp at 37%, a minority.

It's been reported as a high turnout, but that's only when compared with elections. I expected much higher for such an important once-in-a-generation choice. Those that couldn't be bothered were, by implication, OK with the status quo.

Wrong index

Sure the FTSE100 fall could merely be a reflection of where it has been in the recent days and weeks, but the Fall on the FTSE250 is larger, representing more companies, who rely on a higher proportion of UK sales. Oh and lets not forget the pound itself that is in many ways far more damning.

If they'd had a plan, there would be fewer leave votes. They played the all-things-to-all-men game brilliantly while Remain simply forgot about the EU and concentrated on telling us that Leave were liars and scoundrels.

Now we have the problem of the senior Leave voices calling for calm reflection, while the nobody knows where we're going to be in the future - isolationists with as much international influence as North Korea, or an EU member in all but name. It's hardly any wonder the markets and currency have fallen through the floor.

They played the all-things-to-all-men game brilliantly while Remain simply forgot about the EU and concentrated on telling us that Leave were liars and scoundrels.They played the all-things-to-all-men game brilliantly while Remain simply forgot about the EU and concentrated on telling us that Leave were liars and scoundrels.

If the benefits of staying in the EU were so clear and so numerous it may have paid for the Remain camp to tell us what that are rather than adopt the "sky will fall in" tactic. People do not like chicken little campaigning as it smacks of desperation and I believe it's part of the British psyche to rebel against foreign leaders (Obama et al), big business and the 1% telling us we shouldn't do something as if we're naughty children. Treat people like idiots and that's how they'll end up making you look.

I think Remain should have been able to win but that their campaign was full of contempt for the common man and it cost them dearly.

If you read the plan (which is admittedly unlikely given that it's 400+ pages and quite comprehensive and few people can be assed to read something of that length) then it covers pretty much everything, including the suspicion that the "remain" camps electoral strategy would be not to mention the plan, and then deny the existence of any plan to bolster their campaign on the basis that "leave" had no plan to leave the EU. That obviously didn't happen at all...!

Newsflash, news sources these days are active political entities in their own right. If events don't fit with the agenda they have built then they simply aren't covered in the news. The prevailing news agenda for the left leaning media was that there was no plan for what would happen if you voted leave and that everybody considering doing voting "leave" was a far right, facist, racist, xenophobic, evil, bigoted, assasaination supporting irresponsible maniac. Hence why if you only read the BBC/Guardian then you won't have heard *anything* about the existence of an exit plan.

Or have you? How well informed are you by your chosen news sources? Why did >50% of the population vote to leave? Is >50% of the population really far right, facist, racist, xenophobic, evil, bigoted, assasaination supporting irresponsible maniacs or are your news sources just not covering why >50% of the population are unhappy with the EU and the status quo?

Deliberately breeding that sort of hate and not covering things that concern the working classes is one reason that the westminster bubble has the level of trust (ie, zero) that it does. But "divide et imperia" I guess, even if it does mean deliberately stoking hatred and turning the entire country against each other for votes. :(

The stock exchange and value of the pound are in free fall as was predicted many times prior to the vote and we are no longer the worlds 5th largest economy.

That's one way to look at it. But, the markets (stock and money) are not run or impacted by those not already running the system. There's the big gamers who can manipulate just by selling or buying, long or short. I can almost with certainty say that they won't lose much if any money.

As for dealing with it, the politicos don't have to. The markets are being managed (ok.. controlled) by those who benefit the most.

...the 'point' is?

And liberally** use inverted commas where none are needed ('labour Party', wrongly-capitalised) and use one where none should be (it's). Plus paragraphs all over the place. This is the sort of person that took us out.

And has anyone noticed that this Little Englander has chosen a French nick for himself...?

Error in report

Errr... Paragraph 3; "major cities such as Birmingham, Newcastle and Sheffield gave Leave a clear victory" is wrong. Newcastle was a "barely remain" result (unless El Reg now thinks Newcastle-under-Lyme is bigger than Newcastle-upon-Tyne!) See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results/local/n

Re: Error in report

It's called Democracy*. Sometimes you get your choice because the majority agree with you, sometimes you don't because the majority don't. Place your vote, wait for the outcome and accept what the majority decide with dignity and respect.

The reason that our neighbours in Ireland get to vote on so many things - including those pesky Euro treaties where they have had to go round again in order to get the right answer.

Rightly or wrongly (The latter in my opinion) the UK governments of the past have insisted we stick with the status quo - namely that Britain does not have a codified constitution but an unwritten one formed of Acts of Parliament, court judgments and conventions.

And as such referendums play no part in it as an Act of Parliament can be changed by any later parliament should it so desire.

If they'd had that rule and a referendum BEFORE we signed up to the various intermediate treaties...

Indeed. The EU was created by the Maastricht treaty, and France only voted to accept that by 51%. If we don't accept 52% as valid for Brexit then we can't accept 51% as valid for creating the EU in the first place.

...a two-thirds referendum majority in such an important matter. That way you can be assured that people generally are in favour of a change from the status quo.

The trouble with that is when 35% vote "Remain" and 65% vote "Leave", and the government says "Nope, less than ⅔, so not a big enough majority". That way lies violent revolution, unfortunately. Or at least downfall for the government & election of UKIP. On the other hand, it would definitively put paid to Scottish independence.

This isn't democracy.

"It's called Democracy*. Sometimes you get your choice because the majority agree with you, sometimes you don't because the majority don't."

The majority didn't vote to leave, it was 17m people, in a country with over three times that number.

Taxpaying permanent residents in the UK weren't allowed to vote, UK citizens permanently resident in the EU weren't allowed to vote, under 18s weren't allowed to vote. The game was rigged for Leave, amazingly by someone campaigning to stay (Cameron)

This wasn't a majority decision, as others have pointed out, to make such a massive jump into the dark with such a tiny percentage lead is nothing less than reckless. I hope the next few years of complete uncertainty is worth it.

Re: So then

"This means our courts can't be overruled by another court over the channel [...]"

The ECHR is not part of the EU. It was established with the support of Winston Churchill after the war. The Tories have spoken about rescinding that agreement and possibly the UN Charter too.

Our elected Governments have no difficulty passing laws - which they do frequently no matter what public opposition. If it gets contentious they slip it in by adding details as secondary legislation which is almost like ruling by decree.

Re: So then

Re: So then

"and that if we want laws our elected government will have to pass them?"

Our elected government already had to pass them.

And - contrary to myth - it had the option of not doing so. It was simply convenient to blame the EU when passing laws which were known to be unpopular with the electorate - in some cases EU laws only put on the books because the UK insisted on them.

Re: On days like today...

Gutted

Half my family live and work in Europe and more than half of my friends here in Brighton are Europeans living & working here, although they are at least all married to UK citizens these days so they won't have to leave.

It has put a massive question over my retirement plan, which was to be euthanisia in Belgium!

The EU's biggest effect on my life has been all the policies which have protected us from our own politicians and corporations trying to milk us as product. So I look forward to a future where the leaders of our faux democracy are now free to sell us (the citizens) down the river in the name of corporate profits & backhanders.

The irony is that any negative economic effects will be most felt by the idiots who thought leaving was going to fix a single thing that they care about.

My daily mail reading (and consequently brexit voting) mother is under the impression that she will suddenly be able to get an appointment for her hip in weeks instead of months.

@AC re "But maybe this isn't (well, wasn't, now) the case in the UK"

It was.

But I think it's fair to characterise this whole referendum as a choice between which particular group of unfettered global capitalists you want to get raped by. The EU's favouring of TTIP suggests that they are no better friend of the poor or the working majority than those carrying the flag for "de-regulation", AKA poorer workers' rights and a privatised health service.

The difference being that the vast majority of EU countries have a more democratic system and a better educated, more engaged populace. Making it much harder for their leaders to get away with that crap.

We, on the other hand have a hilarious cartoon democracy giving us an illusion of any choice or say. Your MP doesn't reflect your viewpoint in parliament, they follow the whip on anything remotely important and fuck what you or the majority in your constituency want (which of course they never ask you anyway - you can write to your MP but 5 out of the 6 times I have done so I received a stock letter - twice about completely different subjects - yay!)

I haven't seen many UK based anti TTIP protests in the UK and when you do they are more general anti-globalisation protests carried out by people who all look completely anti-establishment and consequently of zero value to the middle class who assume they are talking bollocks or want to burn their garden sheds (full disclosure, I have a garden shed)

I voted remain because for the last 20 years we have been relying on the good citizens of the EU to defend us from exploitation. We just kissed their protection goodbye.

I am guessing UK citizens privacy will be the first casualty, followed by HRC, then working time directive.

Re: Gutted

I used to work in USA, and although my company wanted to sponsor me for a green card there was no way I could stay. All of my USAian colleagues spent their entire working life afraid. I worked for the same company in both the US and back in blighty there were some remarkable differences between the contracts

UK

3 months notice

Redundancy package

4 weeks holiday (inc national hols)

Sick pay

US

2 weeks notice

16 days holiday (inc national hols)

no redundancy

max of 3 days sick pay

When the company was suffering some financial difficulties a worldwide meeting was held where they stated that as a cost reduction method all north american workers would have a 2 week furlough - which is basically a forced unpaid leave. There was a lot of muttering in the Boston meeting room I was in & then someone said "er can I ask why it is only the US workers who have to take the furlough?" (we had offices all over the world many of which are not renowned for workers rights). In every other country we operated in it was breach of contract.

It is the EU which has been defending us from the worst of corporate exploitation. In part I think due to proportional representation and more politically engaged citizens and of course a history of socialist values and work life balance.

Even if whatever bunch of British public schoolboys (yes, it is our government that is run by more out of touch elitist pricks than any other in Europe) don't fully embrace the "people are product" doctrine of the US, they'll have a lot less power to defend against the push.

At least European citizens demonstrate against corporate pushes like TTIP and increase in working hours etc.. British citizens will believe anything some gurning prick will tell them if it is printed in the scum rags like The Sun & The Mail and roll over and take it.

Re: Gutted

It is the EU which has been defending us from the worst of corporate exploitation.

No, it isn't. The rules for things like vacation, redundancy, sick pay etc. are not set by the EU. The UK has much better employement protection law than many other EU countries (and I speak as a UK citizen who lives elsewhere in the EU).

yes, it is our government that is run by more out of touch elitist pricks than any other in Europe

Now there you really haven't a clue. Ever heard of the French "École nationale d'administration"? It's basically a super-elitist public school for politicians. If you aren't an "énarque" you have little hope of getting into power in government. It has interesting little rules, for example all graduates have the right to use the familiar "tu" form to any other graduate, even to the President. Not so much an old school tie as a complete old school 3-piece suit with cravat and overcoat.

Anyway, what's the problem with "élitism"? Don't you want people who are good at something to be in charge? Why is it OK to celebrate the elite in sport, or music, but not in intellectual pursuits? Just sour grapes?

Re: Gutted

"No, it isn't. The rules for things like vacation, redundancy, sick pay etc. are not set by the EU. The UK has much better employement protection law than many other EU countries (and I speak as a UK citizen who lives elsewhere in the EU)."

Re: Gutted

well I do know that my Brother who has lived in Belgium for 15 years and before that spain & before that Germany is Gutted.

My father who has lived in France for 20 years is not only gutted but fucking terrified. He only got half pension anyway as he retired when living in Australia. It is his status and most importantly at 80 years old, healthcare, that are scaring the shit out of him.

Re: Gutted

My father who has lived in France for 20 years is not only gutted but fucking terrified.

He shouldn't be. After 20 years he's probably eligible for French citizenship if he wants it (assuming he's integrated, speaks French, etc.) but in any case he'll be covered by all the usual guarantees of "acquired rights" (see the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, for example, which says that ending a treaty doesn't affect prior rights granted under that treaty). Even if France stops accepting UK citizens as automatic residents, people who are already established residents have no need to panic.

Re: Gutted

When I saw the projected result early this morning, after making sure that I hadn't misread it, I felt sick. I still feel sick. And very sad. It's not easy to be rejected by the people of your own country.

Britain joined when I was 9 years old. I've grown up with the European project as it evolved into a single market and a free movement area. For the past 20 years I've exercised my right to live and work in another member country.

I never thought I'd see the day when my own countryfolk would smash it up. And for what? To spite foreigners?

Re: Gutted

I've grown up with the European project as it evolved into a single market and a free movement area. For the past 20 years I've exercised my right to live and work in another member country.

Me too, and if I'd had the vote that Cameron promised me when he was elected I'd still have used it to vote "Leave".

And for what? To spite foreigners?

For some, maybe. For me it's because the EU has lost its way and has no justification for existing in its present form. It's a train heading for a cliff, and the drivers show no sign of even wanting to open their eyes to look. Brexit will hurt, but not half as much as Remain would have done in 10-15 years time when the crash happens. Maybe Brexit will be the wakeup call the eurocrats need, somehow I doubt it.

Re: Gutted

re: "The UK has much better employment protection law than many other EU countries (and I speak as a UK citizen who lives elsewhere in the EU)."

I didn't respond to this earlier because I had no idea of the veracity of your statement. However, coincidental or made up as it might sound, my other half is an employment law consultant for a global financial company operating in every market on earth and is responsible for ensuring compliance throughout the EU and Asia. So this evening I asked her about this.

She just about managed to to articulate "bollocks!" through surprised laughter.

As always it is not black and white she explained, as we waited for the bus. The state of employee protections throughout the EU depends of the maturity of any given nation state. So certain member states haven't yet been able to implement all of the EU directives because such things take time.

However If you compare to France, Germany and other longer term members of the EU, the UK is by no means the leader in this regard. The UK vigorously opposed the EU working time directive initially and only eventually partially implemented it reluctantly.

Even now, although complying in many aspects they refuse to implement the investigatory powers and remedial actions covered by the directive.

I am paraphrasing what she said and recounting it after several drinks with some of our resident European friends at a local french jazz bar but I'm very confident you are wrong.

Don't underestimate the Brits!

European citizens can demonstrate all they like against TTIP, but if the unelected prics in Europe decide to go ahead with TTIP there is nothing European citizens can do. You cannot remove the unelected with a vote can you.

Don't underestimate the Brits they have just had the courage to vote out, despite all the negative propaganda by the "Remain Ignorant" campaign, and hopefully lead the rest of Europeans to dismantle what the Nazis started.

Re: Don't underestimate the Brits!

eh? Since both Labour & Conservative supported TTIP and referendum's aren't exactly a common thing in the UK what opportunity do you think these plucky isolationists will have to reject a hastily constructed one sided US trade deal?

Re: Don't underestimate the Brits!

Re: Don't underestimate the Brits!

Actually European protests and petitions have already done a lot to put TTIP under threat, whereas the UK will now certainly be subject to a new trade agreement with the US which we have zero say in and no power whatsoever to influence. Also since we are now about to lose AAA status our government will have no bargaining power in the treaty.

Re: Don't underestimate the Brits!

"but if the unelected prics in Europe decide to go ahead with TTIP there is nothing European citizens can do."

It's the MEPs I would count on, and they are elected. Unfortunately the Brits have been a bit lazy in those elections (not alone in that). Incidentally Cameron has a voice too, and is elected. Voice enough to pull Britain out of the EU.

As for me, I wish Europe all the best, and that includes Britain the way I see it. The world is a work in progress as before.

Re: Gutted

Re: Gutted

@Mark85 "Name any country that isn't be sold down the river for the corporates or, soon will be?"

So because it will probably happen eventually, we shouldn't bother trying to defend against it?

The rest of the EU will probably now avoid the very worst parts of TTIP, at least the negotiations have been dragged kicking and screaming into the light to face public scrutiny thanks to the protests of the citizens of the member states.

We in the UK however can be prepared to have several hundred carcinogenic and potentially toxic chemicals currently banned from use in the EU re-introduced to manufacturing and food processing to ease trade between the UK and US with absolutely no opportunity to oppose it.

We'll likely also have several health & safety regulations reduced or removed to "ease trade" with the US. The deaths and ill health of ourselves and our children are simply statistics to these people. The combined strength of the EU citizens (not the EU parliaments) was our only defence especially since both Labour and the Conservatives are in favour of the TTIP.

So far everybody I have actually spoken to who voted Leave had no idea how our own democracy worked, let alone how the EU affected it and have never heard of the Working time directive or TTIP.

They just go on about the housing crisis or "sovereignty". When I ask what the hell the EU has to do with the housing crisis it then comes back to.... guess what? Immigrants! We don't have room for immigrants.

We might actually have the room for immigrants if we threw out all the fuck wits who would rather read about the Kardashians than get an education.

PS. I'm a bit pissed now (not in the American sense, I've been fucking livid all day!)

@janimal -- Re: Gutted

@Mark85 "Name any country that isn't be sold down the river for the corporates or, soon will be?"

So because it will probably happen eventually, we shouldn't bother trying to defend against it?

No... we should speak out against it. My point above is that is more widespread than most folks imagine. I, for one, have spoken out and suffered the repercussions. And yes, they are there. But the fact remains, it's an uphill battle by us troops in the trenches as we don't have the resources of the corporates. And no, I'm not going to stop speaking out.

Re: Gutted

You are really not well informed. Gee don't know where to begin to rip your statement apart. Faux democracy in the UK? Yes you might be right but the EU doesn't elect their leaders, what you call that uhmm I'm split between dictatorship and plutocracy.

"...are now free to sell us (the citizens) down the river in the name of corporate profits & backhanders" You really don't know how the EU works do you? I suggest you get informed and start with TTIP. Oh sorry that is a secret trade agreement that we are not allowed to know what the EU is trading on our behalf. Have you ever heard of lobbying? Do you know who does the most lobbying in the EU? Corporations, and they ain't lobbying to give you a pay rise?

By the way nothing will change for you or your European friends, immigration wasn't invented by the EU.

Re: Gutted

@ AC "You are really not well informed. Gee don't know where to begin to rip your statement apart."

I am actually completely aware of all of your points, but you fail to see the nuances of how the democracy & better engagement of the individual nations that make up the EU have an effect on that un-elected body - it is the citizens of the individual countries who are engaged enough to vote and protest in proportionally represented parliaments that temper the worst excesses of the politicians and corporations. We have just made that our responsibility. How many Leave voters are going to get off their arses to defend against TTIP?

I suspect that we'll be seeing the relaxing of regulations requested by the US corporations in TTIP the second we have left the EU as a way to try to rescue our fucked economy.

Re: Gutted

"I suspect that we'll be seeing the relaxing of regulations requested by the US corporations in TTIP the second we have left the EU as a way to try to rescue our fucked economy."

Yes, I also think that will be one of the first results. We have a "special relationship" with the USA and the UK now needs to hurriedly start setting up new trade agreements. Article 50 has to be invoked sometime over the next few months then there's a maximum of two years to negotiate the exit from the EU. That's no time at all in terms of negotiating trade treaties. The US will know this so we'll almost certainly end up with a TTIP agreement with no time or real economic power to curb the worst of it. And after 40 years in the EU I doubt the Commonwealth countries will clamouring to offer us any favoured trade deals.

Re: Gutted

Eight hours later that appears to be wrong. The EU is saying, no need to wait until October, you've made your decision get on with the process.

No doubt the brexitters will be spinning this as EU sour grapes or vengeance. Realistically though the EU has no choice.

First financial stability for the rest the EU & actually the world relies on some predictability.

Secondly the EU now has to demonstrate to other nations right wing factions that there is a severe cost to leaving and that the EU's responsibility is to provide stability to its member states above defectors.

Don't expect the necessary ensuing trade deals with the EU to be particularly favourable to the UK.

[edit] Wow three in a row. I would be killed in certain areas of the net for such disgraceful behaviour!

Backward not forward

Less than half the electorate voted to leave, with the voting age held at 18 (unlike 16 with the Scottish referendum) and apparently that is enough to force the UK to leave.

Looking at the demographics of the vote it would seem that the older the group the more likely the vote to leave, with the youngest groups voting to stay - pensioners, owning property outright, deciding to gamble on the future of the young. No one knows what is going to happen, so it is a complete gamble, especially with many not knowing if there is anything to gain.

One wonders what the result would be if it was held two years later.

It genuinely upsets me today that so many of my friends, who have lived and worked here for years are now facing the fact that the UK might decide they are no longer welcome, partly because they didn't get UK passports as they didn't need to.

NB - Although the worst aspect is the prospect of seeing Farage's smug face forever and the knowledge that now we "have control" the people going to take it aren't going to make things better.

Re: Backward not forward

"[...] pensioners, owning property outright, deciding to gamble on the future of the young. "

Many pensioners remember the world wars - even if only by family history. They see a reasonably united Europe as being unlikely to go down the populist demagogue route of the 1930s.

I have been surprised at some of them who voted Leave - yet they hate the idea of a hard right or left wing Government. The Civil Partnership couple in particular do not seem to recognise that they are potentially supporting a trend towards their relationship being marginalised again.

"unlikely to go down the populist demagogue route of the 1930s"

Unlikely? 1930s Europe people were not savages. They were already "modern", "acculturated" people. Most of what makes European culture was already existing then. Yet it didn't hinder the tragedy. They listened to utter mad men promoting a reboot of the Roman Empire, and a Reich. And followed them in bloody horrible crimes and to self-destruction.

Are we sure 2030s Europe will be different? Le Pen is a nostalgic of Napoleon's France. Italy has still many politicians who believe Mussolini was a great leader... young people growing up in such an environment what will thing and do?

Re: Backward not forward

English Independence vote in disguise

After the scottish referendum many people in England asked "why can't we vote to boot scotland out?" I reckon that's what this vote was really about, convincing them to have another vote and go for yes this time! :-p

On a more serious note, I was torn on this one.. heart was saying go (get rid of all those ridiculous EU laws), but the head was saying stay.. i.e don't screw our economy for the next 20 years while we go around trying to get new trade deals and the like.

I ended up voting to stay, and having seeing the congrats from the likes of Donald Trump, I'm off to dig my fallout shelter..with internet, beer fridge etc.. in fact I think I should just move to Germany, I can stay in the EU and still have some decent beer, though I might skip the currywurst

Nice

Re: Nice

On the plus side we'll be out of TTIP :)

On the negative side can you see any of our trough swilling leadership saying no to reducing our safety standards and regulations to US levels in the interests of their post parliamentary nest egg free trade?

Re: Nice

"On the plus side we'll be out of TTIP :)"

Hah! You wish. TTIP is not a bilateral agreement between the EU and USA. It's a pan-Atlantic treaty and they want as many nations as possible in it, including us. But now we are just little old UK with little economic or political clout to use as negotiating tools. Trade treaties take years to negotiate and we have a maximum of 27 months to get some new UK ones in place of the EU ones we will out of by then. In particular, we need new treaties with the USA in that time because most of the existing ones are EU treaties which won't apply after the exit.

Re: Nice

"On the plus side we'll be out of TTIP :)"

You are completely delusional. The UK was one of the greatest cheerleaders of TTIP in Europe, it was the other countries who were trying to put limitations on it. Now we are guaranteed to be subject to it as the US will make it a red line precondition for any trade deals we attempt to have with them.

Re: Nice

Second phase "withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights."

No, the EHCR long predates the EU, and was constructed with UK help. The only change will be allowing the UK courts to rule on EHCR issues where they affect the UK, and not allowing them to be overruled by people with no stake in the issue.

A new hope ... for a group of countries not very far away

I wonder whether this vote was as much a message to the political elite (UK and the EU, Brussels in particular), that lack of transparency, effectively showing contempt for the population that they serve, had reached the point where enough was enough.

A resounding clap of thunder/message has been delivered, if they were ever in any doubt.

The markets react to flatulence from any seismic event, and they get over it, eventually. Trump will be the next thing. They also react positively to good news, and good things. Let's create some. Those who continue to bray "we're doomed, it'll be misery forever" need to realise they are in a democracy, and democracy has spoken. Get onboard the train, and play the hand that democracy has dealt.

I am pro-EU, but utterly against Brussels' lack of transparency and accountability. I couldn't convince myself to remain complicit in the status quo political landscape. I helped send the message. Those who will remain in power, both sides of the channel, now have the responsibility of picking up the pieces and building something a lot better than the status quo up to 10pm on June 23rd. With great power comes great responsibility. I sincerely hope the politicians on the new project have an utterly different approach to their work than the lot that fought a bitter, negative referendum campaign on both sides. After many years of disappointment in our political leaders, we felt the need to send this message with the only weapon available to us - our vote.

Now lets get on with the work of building our governments and trading agreements far more openly and transparently than we did prior to yesterday. Opportunity knocks. Lets not be afraid of it.

Re: A new hope ... for a group of countries not very far away

This whole situation and debate (and result) has galvanised me into thinking about stepping up to the plate and entering local politics - it's about time I used my skills for something truly positive.

If the country had voted remain, I wouldn't have cared whether they got more and more arse-raped by the EU as time went by (even though I would be getting it just the same).

Hopefully this feeling isn't limited to just me and will re-vitalise interest in politics. The momentum is with us, we need to take advantage of that and start making the changes that we've all been moaning about and feeling powerless about over the years.

Power to the people, we have spoken. It might not work, we might fail, apathy might once again seep in and undermine positive efforts - but things won't sort themselves out, and we now don't have our EU 'Uncle' to bail us out or prevent corrupt politicians from selling us down the river, What we have now is *our* problem.

If you don't like something, get political and see if you can get others to agree with your point of view. Grass-roots start at the bottom after all.

I'm both terrified and excited about the future, which is better than bored as far as I'm concerned. Ymmv of course :)

For those of you who aren't happy about the result, I can understand that. Be not afraid, be empowered. Do not dwell on what has gone, but on what might be - dare to dream and then put your back into achieving it. It's time our national spirit* soared once more.

Take solace perhaps in that the result could have been worse. For example, if the country voted to leave but with a low turnout, I think that would have been worse all round. However, even though there were torrential rains and local floods etc. that would normally mean a low turnout, we have a HUGE turnout. People feel empowered again - that is a positive thing and we need to build on it, together....please.

*fyi I am including all nationalities in this. Being British is a state of mind, not a question of colour or religion. It's about charging ahead and leading the way and not being afraid to try.

Re: A new hope ... for a group of countries not very far away

Thanks, I'm going to guess that it's sour grapes from a bunch of useless twats who have never had to fend for themselves and are shitting themselves silly that they don't have a safety net anymore and don't realise that you're only alive when you stand to lose something.

I know that sounds petty, but this is what will actually drag us down in the end. No amount of enthusiasm, or optimism and hard work etc. will ever get through to someone who feels entitled to something they haven't worked for. It makes me sad, but more than that it makes me feel tired.

I won't give up trying, it's what I believe this country is capable of (by country I mean everyone in it) that keeps me going. Enough people voted for hope that I don't feel like it's a waste of time at least, I guess I'll just need to grow thicker skin. It's odd that I haven't had many comments to explain what the down-votes were for - it's hard to gauge whether I've actually offended or if someone is really just being fickle :/

Re: If I hear a single pensioner...

Re: If I hear a single pensioner...

As a pensioner myself, I note the broad sweeping claim. Well I've got news for you. I, and all my friends voted to stay in. Most of us are not old enough to remember WW2 but we do remember the aftermath (especially the kids with no fathers). We all feel sorry for the kids today. Their world has just got a lot more unstable.

Re: "As a pensioner myself, I note the broad sweeping claim"

...as a not quite pensioner I noticed the 'if they say' condition on the punching, so you'll be alright.

I've puzzled over what mythical golden age the older voters thought they were voting for. I remember a pre-EU England racist from top to bottom, police happy to beat confessions out of the innocent while collaborating with crooks, governments little better, a society riddled with class discrimination. Even if the EU did nothing to improve that why the hell does anyone want to vote in scum that would recreate that world if they got the chance?

Re: "As a pensioner myself, I note the broad sweeping claim"

"I remember a pre-EU England racist from top to bottom, police happy to beat confessions out of the innocent while collaborating with crooks, governments little better, a society riddled with class discrimination."

I heard quite a number of people complaining how they remembered that joining the EU put all the prices up, especially food. I suspect they didn't realise that the prices went up because the "markets" don't like change.

Well, welcome to 2016. Leaving the EU is change and guess what? Prices are going up and the £ is falling. It'll take a while to stabilise but already the Petrol Retailers Association and The AA are saying fuel will be up by 3p a litre (13.5p/Gall) by next week. Since pretty much everything is shipped by HGV these days then everything will go up in price based on the fuel costs alone. Here in the IT industry, ALL of the hardware is imported so that's our industry into a high risk mode now. But when will the pound stabilise? There a couple of years before we actually leave the EU and all those trade agreements to negotiate. It's going to be a rocky course for at least the next 4 years.

Re: If I hear a single pensioner...

"Or you could swallow your pride, put childish emotions aside and try and do something positive to help not only yourself, but others, avoid a depression."

Okay well care to give us some tips o wise one? I already went to the trouble of trying to make myself financially stable, have savings, invest in UK companies, try to get ahead on my pension, try to pay off my mortgage etc. and that's kind of all going to pieces in front of my eyes.

I didn't even give a toss about immigration, because I could see it for the silly inflammatory, non-issue it always was. I don't even use the NHS even though I could.

I guess it's the 'Leave' folks I'll be asked to bail out in a few years time.

Re: If I hear a single pensioner...

Well, keeping an open mind about addressing issues positively would be a great place to start.

I'm not better off from leaving the EU, but I do think it will provide better opportunity to improve our lot, as long as we want that and don't get mired down in 'what-if's' etc.

If there is one thing I have learned in this life so far - it's that attitude counts for more than aptitude. I'm not saying that aptitude isn't worthwhile, because it is, it's that a good attitude outweighs it.

Re: If I hear a single pensioner...

"I'm not better off from leaving the EU, but I do think it will provide better opportunity to improve our lot, as long as we want that and don't get mired down in 'what-if's' etc."

But isn't considering the "what-if's" the only way to navigate a bunch of possible futures - or do you just pick a random direction in the morning & hope it gets you to where you want to be? Oh hold on, that does seem to explain the Leave vote <sigh>

Re: If I hear a single pensioner...

"On second thoughts, will the country be able to afford to give me my pension at 65? Probably not."

I calculated in the mid 1980s that retirement pension age would need to rise to 75 by 2025 in order to account for the falling birthrate (most pensions are paid directly out of taxation). This applied across the western world. There simply wasn't anything in the system to pay pensions to Boomers unless they started dying off more quickly - this was compounded by their steadfast refusal through the 70s-80s to invest sufficiently for their retirement and that pattern hasn't changed.

10 years ago I revised it to 2020 and now I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it happen sooner and be set at a higher age.

Re: If I hear a single pensioner...

Yeah at age 24 I started putting in extra to retire at 55 (oh how young and silly I was) now at 45 I may be able to retire at 75 or 80 as I'll still have to pay for my babyboomer parents that will still be alive and well past 100.

At least my parents voted to remain.

For every £1000 a year in pension I want, I have to save up £35000. It's probably at least £45000 now.

OK; in simple numbers 13 people voted OUT, 12 voted IN. Well that's democracy so we're on our way out. However I predict over the next few years all 25 people will be at the very least be seriously dissapointed to put it mildly.

The 12 will mourn their lost vision of a common future where they could travel live and work in a wider community,

The 13 will be frustated at what I expect will be the slow pace of change in the things they wanted. With a distinct possibility that some things will not change and may even get worse.

And then there's the Scottish question (don't even mention the Scottish question)

From the EU point of view

if you were France, with all the internal problems you currently have, would you keep hundreds of police at Calais protecting the UK border, or would you allow EDF to risk going bust by building Hinckley Point. (without which our lights may well go out)

If you were Germany and you're now left being the biggest and most pwerful member by default. A situation the EC, EEC, EU were specifically intended to avoid, what do you do next?

Let alone the fun and games of the Euro and potential domino exits of other states..

All I can say is "Well done you" to all of the political 'elites' That highly paid cadre of supposedly intelligent savvy people whoes whole lives are based around negotations and compromise on our behalf.

You're concentration on personal advancement and blind ideology with a failure to foresee, connect and react to the wills of the people who employ you has completely screwed most of us for the next few years, Thankyou..

if you were France, with all the internal problems you currently have, would you keep hundreds of police at Calais protecting the UK border

Right now I suspect they're much more worried about the idea that all those migrants might not want to go to the UK any more.

or would you allow EDF to risk going bust by building Hinckley Point.

Hardly related to the EU, that particular argument has been raging for months anyway.

If you were Germany and you're now left being the biggest and most pwerful member by default.

They were that already.

what do you do next?

Try not to be seen rubbing my hands with glee in public, while also figuring out how to keep selling expensive cars to my biggest European market without upsetting French plans to bring in swinging anti-UK import duties?

"All I can say is "Well done you" to all of the political 'elites' That highly paid cadre of supposedly intelligent savvy people whoes whole lives are based around negotations and compromise on our behalf."

Actually, I suspect you can lay the blame for Brexit and the possible downfall of the EU on a single Tory spin doctor/campaign manager.

"Yes David, if you promise an EU referendum it'll go down really well with a big demographic. What's that? No, no, no, you'll never have to actually *have* a referendum, we don't stand a chance of a majority in the next parliament, we'll be in another coalition and can just blame the "partners" for everything again."

Mission creep

An economic union became a political union. By all means find ways to simplify trade (standardise the API if you like) but there's no reason why the the whole stack needs to be monolithic.

Our mob may be a bunch of stringless puppets but we have a slim chance of doing something about it, whereas in the EU we haven't got a chance to drive necessary change. A Brexit smack in the chops might, one would hope, shake the EU politicos up a bit... Don't hold your breath.

Re: Mission creep

Economic unions are political, else they could not function, much of the mission creep was inevitable. The mistake was to appear to extend beyond simply creating a level playing field with fair rules. Poor communication from MEPs and other parts of the EU Administration has resulted in widespread distrust and a lack of understanding of any of the work they do.

Somewhat ironically we will now start to negotiate all over again with multiple nations and bodies to establish our new place in the world, there will be wins and concessions and the body of this work will be carried out by non-elected, faceless civil servants.

Re: Racism

@Jason

Have you considered that it might have been about democracy? Just a thought.

Even if the worst (ludicrous) predictions of Project Fear come true and every family ends up £38 a week worse off*, that's around the average Sky sub. A small price to pay for getting my right to vote on who governs me back, but YMMV.

* That's not actually 'worse off', of course, it's less 'more well off' than some hypothetical 5-year future timeline.

Re: @Jason

" A small price to pay for getting my right to vote on who governs me back, but YMMV."

You seem to forget that you do get a vote on that part of government regulation which is affected by the EU - through your national parliament (which sends people to the European Commission) and through your vote for the European Parliament (which being PR might give you more influence than in a FPTP Westminster election). Just because some folk keep repeating "undemocratic EU & unelected bureaucrats" doesn't make it true.

However, you have little influence over the House of Lords. And the way we are governed is also greatly affected by issues no government, national or otherwise, has much effect on such as the weather, scarce resources and some international conflicts.

"undemocratic EU & unelected bureaucrats"

Re: @Jason

Democracy? What a naive concept. We haven't had proper political democracy in the West for years. Whomever is in power just carries on the same old agenda.

Do you think that with Boris and IDS in charge, that things are going to magically change for the better? That minimum wage will go up to £20 an hour. House prices will become affordable? Universities will become free again? The NHS will be perfect? Bankers won't be ripping us off for all they can? Wow is that John Lennon's 'Imagine' I hear in the background?

Sky TV

Even if the worst (ludicrous) predictions of Project Fear come true and every family ends up £38 a week worse off*, that's around the average Sky sub. A small price to pay for getting my right to vote on who governs me back, but YMMV.

Re: Racism

"Which was Farage's strategy all along."

Farage is a currency trader. He knew full well what the ramifications of "Out" were a long time ago.

UKIP was a way for him to get media coverage (the "look at me" factor) and political influence without being responsible for what those changes did (the kingmaker scenario). He was playing the role of Court Jester.

The problem is, this is now a "Mouse That Roared" scenario.

He wasn't expecting Brexit, wasn't planning for it and has no idea how to actually deal with it. You could see in his eyes that he was panicking - enough to flat out lie and try to bluff that he never sold the £350 million lie (the interviewer should have been prepared and run the soundbite they later found of him doing exactly that).

Boris was simply shell shocked. He was also visibly panicking in TV interviews. Call Me Dave has thrown up his hands and said "I'm not dealing with this shit" and the EU has made it clear that foot-dragging on article 50 won't be accepted, nor will dragging exit negotiations past the 24 month limit be tolerated.

There are already a bunch of EU-funded science contracts which were under negotiation that got ripped up on Friday, worth a couple of hundred million pounds. You can expect a lot more to follow either immediately (if possible) or at the next review point. The UK government has put almost nothing directly into universities for science research for the last decade and almost all grants have been EU-sourced. That translates into my job being at risk, probbaly dead by August. Ask the Swiss how well voting to can their science research funding worked out.

Most of the big financial organisations are already making plans to move their EU-staff out of London and into mainland europe (those that weren't already, started on Friday morning) and it's a sure bet that vehicle manufacturing will swiftly move to the mainland - bearing in mind that carmaking and vehicle component fabrication is a fundamental underpinning of the remaining UK manufacturing industry...

Ghastly Mess

Re: Ghastly Mess

I sincerely hope that we can now put aside any differences of remain/leave and unite as a country and get on with the job in hand.

Having read quite a bit of the thread and sour grapes from the remain campaign (although I will accept that it is still early on in the bereavement process) I'm quite disappointed in the negative viewpoints espoused. It's almost like people who voted to stay in the EU are used to having everything done for them.

Well. news-flash - the world has changed and you can't expect others to do things. If you aren't happy about the result, I understand. However, to sit back and not take part in what it takes to get Britain working properly again just so you can say 'I told you so' is not, in my opinion, a long-term winning strategy.

By all means mourn the result based on your own beliefs, but once you have finished grieving please, for the love of all that's good about this country, get on board with the decision and make the best of it.

I love this country, but I'm not happy about the way things have been going politically for many years. Too many politicians appear subservient to entrenched bureaucrats in Whitehall, that's something I'd like to see change.

I know it's easy to believe this is about racism/bigotry etc. - I'm not keen on the message that brought us to this point because I believe it to be disingenuous and disrespectful - I'm guessing the leave campaigners thought that most people might not understand some of the more involved reasons to leave, which is a shame because it's started us off on the back foot.

What we have now is an opportunity to build on the fact that 72% of the electorate turned out to vote during some of the shittiest weather we've seen all year. People do *care*. Now we just need to make sure we all have something positive to care about.

Re: "used to having everything done for them"

The only thing I've got used to is very occasionally having the worst excesses my gov would like to commit blocked. Getting to vote every 5 years for the least offensive bag of policies on offer followed by 3 years of doing whatever they like gives far too much opportunity for mischief.

Re: Ghastly Mess

Yeah I'm amazed at how many people (well 17.4 million) think that Britain is now going to become some wonderful egalitarian economic powerhouse that has freedoms and representations for all and will embrace and support the 'common man'. That all of the existing Govt infrastructure will be swept aside and a new fairer Britain that every country will want to be best mates with, will emerge.

The truth is the only people liberated are the 1%/establishment who can now rip us off with 100% impunity and with ALL laws now fully supporting them.

Re: Ghastly Mess

For the record, I don't think all our problems are just going to magically disappear overnight now we're out of the EU, far from it.

What we *do* have now is an opportunity to put things right. However, in order to do so the people of this country are going to have to put aside trivial differences and start tackling the things that really matter - otherwise like you say, it will just be more of the same.

Re: Ghastly Mess

Agree, total mess. I expect over a million of them will by this time next month. The ludicrous obsession of the politicians equating 'first past the post' with democracy once again fails the nation.

Nevetheless, its hard to blame people from the north east coming out so strongly in favour of leave after the way Redcar steelworks was abandoned casually with blame assigned to EU (contrast with Port Talbot). Or after the voice of the people of Yorkshire (where more people voted in the referendum than in Scotland) has been studiously ignored for years by the scottish/london political establishment (tory and labour).

Referendum. Stupid question, who expected anything but a stupid answer.

Re: Nigel Farage's next venture.

I would have thought his MEPs are not too keen on losing their jobs soon. Whilst they did nothing, I'm sure they enjoyed all the perks going. Plus without his MEPs...UKIP is basically totally defunct and he can just disappear. Hopefully.

If there's one thing America's taught me...

Good news for the British workers!

The way the pound sterling is going they can expect to vastly increase their wages as requested. Sad thing is that since they don produce much of anything on the island, they'll all have to live off tourism and have to pay their days wages polishing shoes and dragging some fat ass Kraut around the pristine country side in a rickshaw for a single spud they can share with their lovable offspring.

Hooray for the new Dickens stories that will no doubt spring from the pen of some creative who manages to sell his books. Ehm,.. if they manage to get copyright treaties that is. Will take some decades to negotiate on that I guess. But at least they can expect to have to negotiate only with the EU and the rest of the world including IP friendly entities like China.

Let's see how much of a deterrent the enfolding situation of the UK economy can be made to keep the rest of the pack together. Oh right,.. your local politicians forgot to explain that the EU is a trade pact rather than anything else. I guess that will be made very clear shortly by others.

"Bruderlein, Bruderlein,.. Wass? Willts Du nich mein Bruder sein? Dann släg Ich dir dein Schedel ein!", Was a border crossing song in May 1940. Now for sure other means will be used to get that point across this time, but I am afraid it will hurt just about as much.

I am saddened by the utter lack of competence on the side of the remain camp to create a clear message and the turmoil EU bigots have managed to cause on a world scale. And clearly the hurting won't be over yet as this result will fester on the whole continent for a long time just while the last crisis was more or less contained.

But for sure, this is a great day for China and other emerging markets to find one strong competitor severely weakened and one (still member for the time being) state voting itself into oblivion. With the populist shrinkheads and their limited thoughtframes making a strong case for xenophobic tendencies in Europe, I expect some more turmoil to ensue as well.

NOT SO FAST

Not so fast. We know the voting is heavily manipulated, and under control by the NWO.

I believe we are looking at another Rothchild trick; I'll explain...

When Napoleon was defeated, a rider that worked for Rothchild raced to London and informed the markets that Napoleon had won. The prices then collapsed and that enabled Rothchild to buy up the market for pennies on the pound. Then the real news came out that Napoleon was defeated, and it was already too late because Rothchild had most of the wealth at that point.

I believe in a matter of days, or maybe only hours, there will be some sort of announcement of a miscount, or a stipulation where the U.K. will not ctually leave the E.U. I think it will be a "miscount", because that will have the biggest impact on the markets.

This is nothing but a transfer of wealth from the lower classes to the Oligarchy.

Re: NOT SO FAST

Best of three?

Just one referendum and that's it is a bit of a shock. We need to get the hang of this voting marlarky - people are too used to thinking their vote won't count.

Should be a best of three -

The first referendum gets all the votes for people who care quite a lot about the issue.

The second one would encourage more people to vote who didn't quite care enough to vote the first time, but enough to be horrified about the result (and would probably push the vote the other way especially after having seen how close it was).

The third one is the one that counts, that would have everyone voting who wants a say in the future, and we have to stick with that result.

Hmm

I hate to say I saw this coming. I didnt expect leave to win but regardless of who did the expectation was the same. Now I read people complaining the lines need to be redrawn and it shouldnt be a majority but a greater majority. Or complaining that who should vote should be changed to get the right answer. Even threats against those who voted the 'wrong' way. And the real inspirer's of a better future- ignore the result and people dont deserve the vote/democracy/choice.

Of course this contrasts with arguments against FPTP and demands for PR. Somehow half the population are branded (since leave won it is racists) and the real reasons ignored (economy, law, immigration, etc).

I somewhat blame the campaigns of FUD and hatred, also known as the official campaigns of both sides. I wonder if the voters can put aside their irrational oppositions and get on. Or maybe we will give democracy a bad name and something for the less democratic countries to laugh at.

Re: Hmm

To be fair, an argument for a meaningful majority requirement does have merit. It's clear that there are almost as many people choosing one way than the other right now. Do you know what they call making large sweeping corrective changes based on the tiniest of input signals in process control? "A recipe for instability"...

Re: Hmm

@ DropBear

"To be fair, an argument for a meaningful majority requirement does have merit."

In no way was half of the population going to be happy regardless of the result. But redefining a meaningful majority, the EU didnt get one. This is the first ever vote for the EU (not common market). The problem with redefining is the ease of supporting any viewpoint. That is why the rules are agreed at first and then acted upon. And why there was outrage at the constant attempts to rewrite the rules when the vote wasnt certain of the 'right' answer.

We should at the very least be proud and vocal about accepting democratic choice, especially by those demanding it in general elections. And of course now is the opportunity for the remain camp. If they can graciously accept the result they can make a case to the EU to actually deal with its crisis (multiple) as well as making a case for us to not turn our back on Europe (on the whole including EU). The leave camp consisted of some racists who want to block us off as well as globalists who want to open up further than the EU allows. Now is a time to snatch victory from a defeat instead of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Or people can keep calling each other names and squabble until there is nothing left. Claiming victory over rubble is a hollow victory.

Re: Oh f**k

No one in Germany is going to destroy their own car industry just so the president of the EU can march around claiming he is 'punishing' the UK. It may be a bumpy ride, but we are in a very strong negotiating position to secure trade deals from the countries that matter in the EU.

Oh and that small matter of democracy that so many of you forget about - yes it is important that the UK is able to choose who lives here, who we trade with, and which laws we live by. The idea that we can't survive outside the EU is simply not true. We were told by the same organisations that we couldn't survive without the Euro, and look how that turned out.

leave here

I thought both campaigns were a disgrace, There were 2 primary issues that concern me and not once did either address.

There is a fundamental lack of democracy at the centre of EU politics, exactly how would this be dealt with, e.g.

"The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, or propose amendments to it. The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament's opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it. "

So the EU parliament, the only place you have a vote in Europe, can be ignored.

The legal system differences between the majority of the EU and the UK, how are these expected to be reconciled.

UK system has common law, precedent, and is also based on 'that which is not banned is allowed'.

EU ( most ) no common law, no precedent and based on 'that which is not allowed is banned'.

These questions will also be relevant for the, no doubt, inevitable new Scottish Independence Referendum.

Maybe our political servants will answer these questions then, but I won't be holding my breath.

Re: leave here

"UK system has common law, precedent,"

Correct, basically common law is made by tradition and not codified, therefore more difficult to know. Though in practice most of our life is governed by statute law (made by parliament) and case law (made by the courts) For most of us the contracts we enter into also have a major impact on our lives (and in practice they're little different between the common law and Roman law traditions).

"and is also based on 'that which is not banned is allowed'."

Correct.

"EU ( most ) no common law, no precedent"

IANAL but: Roman/civil law traditions are, in practice, not that different from common law traditions. Court decisions form precedent, just like in the UK.

" and based on 'that which is not allowed is banned'."

Not that again! Please quote a source. I'm not a lawyer but I have read a fair number of textbooks on English and Dutch law and I've never come across that. This unfounded claim has been bugging me for years. It's propaganda at its worst, repeated without foundation. Basically a sodding lie.

And while slating Roman/civil law please remember that Scotland has does not have a common law system either, more of a hybrid. Oh, and for the last X centuries folk practicing common law have been exceedingly fond of using Latin terms so it must have held some attractions to them.

We need to educate ourselves

Start with the Flexcit plan (linked by Andrew in the article).

There has been so much ignorance, lies and FUD from both sides of the official campaigns (including our dear BBC). How many here have actually read the text of Cameron's "deal"? How many understand the difference between the Europe, the EU and the Single Market (and the significance of the differences? How many have any understanding of how the EU actually works?

I'm just delighted that enough of the Demos voted against what our ruling elites said we should do that we have some small chance to move to a better world out of the EU. I expect however that we will be told that it was a "protest vote", offered some pretend "reforms" and told to vote again, as were the Irish.

Democracy where only the "correct" answer is allowed is no democracy at all, and what is in the interest of the incumbent elites is not necessarily what is best for the country or the people in it.

I have this uneasy feeling I'm living in a Twilight Zone episode today.

I still can't fathom it ..

How so many people can vote for .. well what ? Even the Leave campaigners don't know what happens next, they are just hoping for the best. We'll I'll give you an example, trade negotiations with the US:

US: Bend over, here's the vaseline

UK : What ???

US: Sorry, no vaseline, bend over anyway

UK: Will this hurt ?

US: Let's start with full access to your NHS for our healthcare industry

Pretty stunned at the outcome but a votes a vote, and the country will get what its voted for regardless of the gnashing of teeth widely heard. As IT specialists we should respect the will of the populace and need to get down and make the best of it.

So with that making a best of a bad decision I shorted sterling on forex as a insurance which has gone some way to offset the pain of the loss of value of my sterling resources while I'm getting them out at a point when the market stabalizes a little before the real pain starts, and today I'm starting with helping a company plan its migration of its UK based IT onto mainland Europe instead.

There's money to be made. It's a dark cloud that doesn't have a silver lining and all that!

erm

Demographically the result pitted the working class and the provincial middle class against London’s bien pensant elites.

Demographically the result pitted the old vs the young, and the educated vs the non-educated. With the older generation voting heavily in favour of leaving, while the younger generation who'll have to deal with this crap voted strongly to stay.

Meanwhile those with higher education (college and above) voted by majority to remain, while those with no further education from school voted most strongly to leave.

Re: erm

To be fair though, the less-educated were the ones receiving the most competition and resulting wage and job pressure due to immigration. If tomorrow, a quarter million qualified IT workers arrived in the UK, within a month this website would be full of "where did all these damned foreigners come from" complaints.

Re: erm

"... If tomorrow, a quarter million qualified IT workers arrived in the UK, within a month this website would be full of "where did all these damned foreigners come from".."

Funny you mention that..

The India-European Union Free Trade Agreement (India-EU FTA) will be finalised by EU Trade Commissioner Cecilia Malmstrom (who ? you may well ask) in July.

(The treaty offers labour market mobility for Indian IT workers, engineers and managers into the EU in return for reduced tariffs in goods exported into India.)

Now with Britain excluded from this agreement, the Indian media is even more livid than the Grauniad is about the Brexit result.

But it could just be that most of the commentards in this thread are PHB's that have realised a cheap supply of labour will never arrive thanks to chavs and northern rawcist plebs exercising their voting rights. Just a thought ;-)

Re: erm

If the EU-India agreement is what you stated, British IT workers may have dodged a bullet. Offering labor mobility to workers who come in at 50-70 cents on the dollar vs. local workers is a horrible idea.

Typical Cameron the coward, he should have stayed and seen the country through BREXIT or until then next election, but no, takes the gutless way out and leave another, probably Boris to sort out all the BREXIT T&C's. I bet he will have a nice little earner all setup for him like Blair did when he left !

To me it now looks like it was the cleverest FU to Boris in the history of FU's. Cameron did the right thing.

As we can tell Boris never expected Leave to win. He now lives in a city that despises him and wants him hung drawn and quartered. He is now expected to stand as the new leader by a bunch of ignorant racist knuckle-draggers and soon to die pensioners that never gave any thought to their decision.

Not only that, he will have to do all those tricky trade negotiations that he never actually thought he would have to do, again surrounded by people that despise him. His nose will get so sore from all those doors slammed in his face.

He's screwed totally. And I can think of no-one more deserving of handling the UK's course to being a G30 status country at best. If he had any sense or decency he would own up and call for the vote to be made null and void.

Re: Unexpected consequences

"That leaves a dragon on the cross of St George."

Excellent.

And then we can set up trade block with other countries who have St George as their patron saint. According to Wikipedia (sorry, best I have at hand now), those include Ethiopia, Malta, Moldova, Russia, Palestine and Turkey. We'll be so happy together!

You couldn't make this up... [Yes Minister (TV Series)]

Don't the Foreign Office realise what damage this will do to the European idea?

..............Sir-Humphrey:

Well, I'm sure they do: that's why they support it.

..............Hacker:

What? Surely the Foreign Office is pro-Europe, isn't it?

..............Sir-Humphrey:

Yes and no, if you'll forgive the expression. The Foreign Office is pro-Europe because it is really anti-Europe. The Civil Service was united in its desire to make sure that the Common Market didn't work. That's why we went into it.

..............Hacker:

What are you talking about?

..............Sir-Humphrey:

Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last 500 years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?

..............Hacker:

That's all ancient history, surely.

..............Sir-Humphrey:

Yes, and current policy. We had to break the whole thing up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.

..............Hacker:

Surely we're all committed to the European ideal.

..............Sir-Humphrey:

Really, Minister. [laughs]

..............Hacker:

If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?

..............Sir-Humphrey:

Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact. The more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up. The more futile and impotent it becomes.

Far side of the Pond, watching.

Not having been day to day in the media over there, perhaps what I've seen offhand was not completely representative of what was in full flight.

Leave media presentation mirrored Trump's campaign, picking the lowest of denominators, inflating fear and hate, niggling "that nasty bugger over there is taking your cookie away" messages. Mostly insinuations that the money going to EU was effectively being stolen and handed to lazy, no good, invading, other (coloured/religion/political orientation/sexuality/hair style) people. Essentially the campaign appeared designed to appeal to the basest component of the lizard brains.

What bothers me *most* (not just US election, BREXIT stuff etc) is just how much of what is being spewed by *all* the media sources out there is specifically designed from the top down to split the populace into groups. This is the *REAL* racism that is out there. More aligned with the idea that the target audience of the media needs to be alienated against the target audience of another media.

It appears to me that those running these media have every intention of enjoying sitting back and chomping on their popcorn while those of us in the trenches of life run around stabbing one another in the back/face/leg/arm/chest as frequently as we can.

Then again, perhaps I'm just awake, and not living the dream.

Beer, at least an attempt was made at a democratic process -- celebrate *THAT* at least.

Re: Far side of the Pond, watching.

Scot who recently became a US citizen, over here in Texas. Your analysis largely mirrors mine, and I *have* been following. It's been touchy speaking to my parents recently because they both have been spouting anti-immigrant UKIP bullshit, since last year, and we're determined that Scotland shouldn't leave the Union. *sigh*

At least I'll probably win that argument, now - pretty sure Scotland is leaving, after this debacle.

Well, when you do something that the worst president the US has ever had is against, and Soros is against, and the globalist banks are against, and failure Merkel is against, you can rest easy that you've done the right thing. :)

An example of the type of incomplete reporting that may have led to Brexit

"Prime Minister David Cameron announced his resignation at 8:30am this morning."

No, he didn't. He said quite clearly that he will be resigning in approximately three months. The UK government is still in place, and (absent a vote of no confidence) will stay that way at least into September.

Just think of what the vote might have been if major media outlets reported things correctly...

Re: An example of the type of incomplete reporting that may have led to Brexit

"He said quite clearly that he will be resigning in approximately three months."

He'll exit with a knife between his ribs before the end of the Month. He's already been quoted by staffers that he's not putting up with this shit to have someone else waltz in when the hard work's done.

Calling all responsible politicians

About 12 to 15 months from now, the poor suckers sent to negotiate post-exit conditions, and whichever of the nitwits ends up at 10 Downing St, will have to face the fact that they have got nothing but bitter lemons from the negotiations. There won't be enough sugar to make lemonade. At that time Parliament, being sovereign, can vote to stay in. But please, politicians, start doing the backroom work now for that to happen. Otherwise, ruination is upon us all.

Is 2% an "overwhelming" majority ? In most opinion polls that in the margin of error.

Brexit Winners and Losers

The biggest Brexit winners are ISIS and Putin. People voting for Brexit had no idea who the winners really are, but a much-weakened EU is exactly what ISIS wants and Putin is now all smiles. Let's believe that Putin will crow that democracy does not work. Biggest losers are the entirety of Great Britain and Angela Merkel, who has shoved austerity down the throats of the smaller weaker and less discipined EU members like Greece, Portugal and Italy, all of whom may bail out next. The EU as a whole loses out and the Euro as a single currency may well be at risk. The EU bureaucrats are shown up as arrogant.

So democracy has seemingly given the British Government a mandate to negotiate an exit strategy from the Europe Union. It turns out the current incumbents didn't actually believe this position would be reached (and it was never certain anyway) and the main opposition think the best way to help is to resign en masse?

I am thinking that Politicians don't like hard work and thinking about the possibilities. I guess getting Europe to decide on the rules was far easier for them and all they had to do was complain a little if they didn't like the regulations coming down from Europe and then sign off on the implementation of said rules anyway.

Disappointed with Lib Dem response

It would have been interesting for them to step up with new plans for proportional representation and legalising cannabis for recreational use instead of the weak willed wanting to redo the referendum.

The legalisation would transfer dodgy financial transactions into the taxable realm and redirect them to UK farmers instead of foreign terrorists (if that's really where they previously went). Those new funds could help replace the EU investment into scientific research which would help develop cannabis based medical treatments. It's time to get on this before the USA do it properly.

With proportional representation it'd help a little in avoiding a repeat of the government being so far out of step with the people, though party politics isn't the most democratic option. Can we have a referendum on banning political parties so individual politicians have to get their mandates from the people they represent rather than trying to convince people of the party line?

Bad losers and no winners

shocking to read some of the moronic posts in this thread, democracy has had it's say.

so we have these

1. remian lost because the vote leavers are stupid

2. I voted remian but dont actually know how the EU works but it is a great thing

3. hey I've done really well from the EU, so what if others haven't

4. I'm going call people racist biggoted and stupid just because I didn't get my way.

Some people need to re-asses their thought process.

1. leave voters are entitled to their opinion.

2. having a different opinion than yours does not mean people have lower IQ's (what next people with different skin colour )

3. the UK more affluent section of the populace and the business world has prospered in the EU, where as others have most definitely not.

4. Immigration from outside the EU was not the issue, it was freedom of movement within the EU which has set back race relations to pre WWII levels, the influx of cheap labour has decimated the construction/factory/service industry with no options for lower skilled Britain's to go elsewhere.

5. Multi Nationals, large organizations have played the EU card and layed off thousands of UK staff because it is 30 euros cheaper to hire staff in Bulgaria or hungry.

6. We bailed the Financial world out , only to be dictated to by a banker from the European bank who has no mandate from the people of the EU to govern them or set policy but he did and then being put through austerity because of the failure from the exacty same people that are forcing countires fiscal policy beyond common sense.

there should be no legislation without representation and the current EU setup is only concerned with business and market interests and the people of the Europe are second class, I mean what a sterling job the EU did with.

1.Syria

2.Libya

3.Middle East

4.Terrorism

5.Migrant crisis

4.Financial meltdown

5. Greek issues

Yeah the E.U is great place ............you can keep it.

There are no winners here, but at least the road I travel will be one of my own choosing through a democratic process, and that is a word the EU has forgot "democracy" .

The Solution

Wasn't the EU a NAZI project?

I tell you why old timers voted out, unconsciously they knew all along that a united Europe always reminded them of NAZI Germany. The aren't wrong since all major decisions come from Germany anyway.

Ahahaha and you thought because you have free movement and get to vote that you have democracy? and because you get to vote nationally and then see your national parliaments harmonise EU legislation it is representing you? You fools, Germany didn't win the war by bombing European capitals, they won the war by buying European governments.

I'm surprised that being a techie site most of you have the ability to do tidy bit of research and pull out documents from the t'internet proving that the EEC EU did indeed originate from NAZI Germany. Ironically you call Brexiters racists for not wanting to be part of a NAZI project.

something else that is rather absurd is David Cameron's , "why should I do the hard shit"

eh because you are the fool who decided to go all in on a horse without a jockey, "you should do the hard shit because you covered the rest of us in " , acting as If he is doing the noble thing falling on his sword come on.

He is just a little boy that doesn't want to play anymore because the other kids don't want to play his game....uh the poor wee soul.

Well has he or not. It would seem he is the proverbial child that can't get his own way and walks off with the ball so no one else can play. Well mr whatsyourname Pm. Its not your ball to take away.

To leave the allegory and return to fact, you are employed to do a job, you take the money and position and you agree to do as the emploer directs. You have been told to remove us from the EU. Get on and do it. if you don't like it tough. Leave immediately and let someone who can do what his boss tells him, get on with it.

Hell 99% of the population have to do what they are told, even if they don't agree, but they do it because they have respect for their position and at the end of the day its the boss' money.

You tried to paint yourself as an honourable man doing the best for us but you show yourself to be just another grasping politician holding on to money and position while trying to block the will of the people.

Current Pm has resigned?

Well has he or not. It would seem he is the proverbial child that can't get his own way and walks off with the ball so no one else can play. Well mr whatsyourname Pm. Its not your ball to take away.

To leave the allegory and return to fact, you are employed to do a job, you take the money and position and you agree to do as the emploer directs. You have been told to remove us from the EU. Get on and do it. if you don't like it tough. Leave immediately and let someone who can do what his boss tells him, get on with it.

Hell 99% of the population have to do what they are told, even if they don't agree, but they do it because they have respect for their position and at the end of the day its the boss' money.

You tried to paint yourself as an honourable man doing the best for us but you show yourself to be just another grasping politician holding on to money and position while trying to block the will of the people.

Confused Yank

Been lurking on El Reg for a few years, this Brexit kerfluffle finally got me to create an account.

First, congrats that you took the time to get off your ass and vote, too many places in the world don't have that choice. To those just couldn't get to the polls, just do the rest of us a favor and STFU.

From what I understand, 3 main points to this vote. Immigration throughout the EU which has no real set of controls on it. Second, laws being made and passed in Brussels which negatively affect the UK. Lastly, folks in the UK tired of Government thinking they know better how you should run your life. Is that about it?

And yes, I've been reading the various papers with all their different screaming about this or that will happen. (FWIW the drudgereport.com @the bottom has links to papers across the world). The way the 2 sides tore into each other was actually nice. No namby-pamby back and forth. Get your base fired up. Rough and tumble politics.

Does Scotland have to wait until Britain is out of the EU before they can vote to leave? When/If they are successful, will they meet the EU criteria?

Any help would be appreciated

On your questions regarding Scotland's options for leaving the UK.

"Wee Crankie", as we like to call her south of the border, has already gone over to Brussels to trudge the corridors of power asking if she can start talks for an independent Scotland to join / remain in the EU once it has voted out of the UK. Unfortunately all the doors are locked as she approaches and when she knocks they shout "Gan with ye, woman!"

She could have saved herself a lot of time and effort by first visiting the EU Parliament Visitor's Center. Right in the entrance there is a large plaque which would have told her all she needs to know.

It says:

“National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times and of the steady march of humanity back to tragic disaster and barbarism….The only final remedy for this supreme and catastrophic evil is a federal union of the peoples.”

Lord Lothian (Philip Kerr), The Ending of Armageddon, 1939

In short, the very last thing the anti-democratic and anti-nationalist EU is going to sanction is the birth of another nation state.