If smn think that Lotus was better car than Ferrari, then I suggest to rewatch season. Ferrari was the better car in like 75% races. And Massa atm drives better than Alonso (at least since Japan?). Alonso doesnt make such great quali anymore, and his pace in few last races were inferior to Massa, and only due to Ferrari politic Massa didnt finish ahead of him

Ha! People actually believe Alonso could win the title in a Sauber? He might have won in Malaysia, Spa and Monza, but the Sauber was utterly nowhere in India, Korea and last weekend.

Alonso has had a car that could run just behind the Red Bulls since Japan and has been in a consistent mid points or higher position almost every race this year. Only time the car looked truly poor were the first 4 or so races.

Sauber has been up and down more than any other team, based on tyres and track conditions. You must honestly be deluded if you imagine the Ferrari was worse than the Sauber for more than a select few races this year.

I think that the team you ought to be pointing at for weakness is McLaren. They have a car fast enough to win the championship, but they aren't even in the running. Since Hungary they had the speed to win or podium in almost every race (win - HUN, BEL, ITA, SIN, ABU, USA, podium - JAP, KOR, IND) but the team has been stuffing up all year. Had they not been failures, McLaren would be heading into Brazil with one hand on the trophy.

Lotus was better car early season but since barcelona Ferrari has been as good car as E20.

Lol much better? No he isn't. The differences in formula 1 between drivers are very minimal. Alonso is more complete driver than Kimi while Kimi has more natural talent.

that's very hard to measure, actually, and it's only anyone's guesses around it.

Yes, since Barcelona Ferrari improved a lot but still Lotus had upperhand over them in many tracks such as Valencia(where Grosjean would've won), Montreal(Lotus could do a 1 stopper and be quick to finish 2nd while Alonso couldn't), Hungaroring and Spa.

You could argue, too, that Lotus could've had more pace than Ferrari in Suzuka with a proper setup, but that's only "if" game

I agree that Lotus qualifying pace is not great but Ferrari isn't as well.

The way I see it, Alonso managed to extract more wins from the situations he had with his average car while Kimi could only win once.

Thinking better, Lotus had best or equal best race pace in at least 2 ocasions: Bahrain(I would say equal to Vettel's) and in Hungary(Kimi fastest alone). Have Ferrari ever had best race pace this season? I don't remember any. They had 2nd and 3rd best race pace in quite many tracks but the absolute fastest, I think in none.

that's very hard to measure, actually, and it's only anyone's guesses around it.

Yes, since Barcelona Ferrari improved a lot but still Lotus had upperhand over them in many tracks such as Valencia(where Grosjean would've won), Montreal(Lotus could do a 1 stopper and be quick to finish 2nd while Alonso couldn't), Hungaroring and Spa

Alonso has worked harder than Kimi all of his career, while Kimi has purely laid to his natural talent, he has also more natural talent when it comes to other motorsport as general.

At Montreal Ferrari was faster, Alonso would have finished in front of Lotus had they done the second stop when it was planned and not to try and fight against Vettel. Spa we don't know about as Alonso was taken out in first corner and spa is Kimi's track so he did better than his car should have done..hungaroring and valencia Lotus was better indeed but it was because of extremely hot weather.

Alonso would be champ this year in Sauber or Lotus, I can imagine that.

Its amazing how Alonso couldnt win the WDC with Mclaren although he had best car that year, he hadnt win WDC with Ferrari so far although the car has always been atleast second fastest, if not fastest over the year, and most importantly it has been most reliable over the years without no doubt.

After failing to deliver with undoubtly best cars of the grid for year after year, I would say there is very slim chance that he could have won title(s) with slower car, with worse team and worse reliability, sorry to burst your bubble though.

Piquet Jr. is just trying to make people think Alonso is faster than god and superhuman, because he was so slow compared to him. There are a lot of drivers on the grid, who would make him look equally slow. Maybe he thinks he's the fastest guy out there right after Alonso? When Schumacher was on top of his game, people where serious about him being able to win races in a Minardi. Well, he couldn't do it in a Mercedes.

Huh? How´s anyone going to win a title with a car with flashes of speed here and there and deep in the midfield most times?? Is the guy even following F1?? Sure, a guy like Lewis, Kimi, Sebastian or Fernando would have done a better job than Sauber drivers, maybe they´d win a race here or there. But mounting a championship challenge in that car?? Don´t make me laugh.

Someone´s desperate to get attention. He just wants to point out he looked that bad because he drove alongside a demi God and didn´t look awful. But two things are wrong: he DID look awful, and the guy alongside was a top driver, not a demi God.

Sauber a better car than the Ferrari ? Give me a break. Even Massa who drove totaly wrong this season has much more points than the sauber boys, or slightly more than Grosjean. There is no way to compare both this teams with the power od Ferrari.

And he's saying Alonso would win "easily" in a Sauber? Lets see he if he manages to win in a Ferrari, let alone in a sometimes fast midle pack car.

Any driver would have needed 11 points per race more than what Perez has achieved to be on level with Vettel. To win "easily" I could assume that driver should be champion already, increase that total to somewhere between 12 and 13. Which means putting car regularly into top 4 in the races Perez failed to score.

Any driver would have needed 11 points per race more than what Perez has achieved to be on level with Vettel. To win "easily" I could assume that driver should be champion already, increase that total to somewhere between 12 and 13. Which means putting car regularly into top 4 in the races Perez failed to score.

Just shows how badly Piquet estimates Sauber level.

It does seem Schumacher mystique of his hay day has now stuck on Alonso. Alonso may be the best active drive but not with margin to overcome decidedly mediocre machinery, chances are overwhelming he would not be in contention with Sauber and even with Lotus I gather it is a long shot.

I don't still quite understand Nelson jr.'s logic here. According to the story, he said that a WDC driver was faster than him, but he was about as fast as a rookie and as fast as a driver, who did not particularly set the world to fire when he got a Ferrari drive for a while. That seems pretty obvious and believable, he was a rookie himself. But then he concluded, that other WDC drivers abilities are of low quality - without one hand experience working with them or any other direct data. Thus I would consider his hypothesis quite vague.

Am I missing something here, or is it that in Nascar ex F1 drivers experience some kind of enlightenment and gain enhanced vision of other drivers' skills and life, which they want to share with the rest of us, who still walk blind.

Hi everyone, I have been idling here for quite a while and now it's time to make my first post. I will answer to Outsider's question in behalf of choyothe. And I will already in advance apologize my possible grammar errors and non-fluent sentence structure as English isn't my mother tongue.

Alonso has been doing really well this year and he very well might be on top of his career and skills right now. However, Kimi also has some experience from taking the maximum out from an inferior Ferrari -- the latter half of the 2009 season by Kimi is in my opinion one of the most underrated performances from the whole 2000's. Especially considering the poisonous atmosphere there were back then at Ferrari and comparing it to Alonso's God-like status there at the moment. Kimi's first half of the 2009 season also had some nice moments like Monaco (losing 0.025 seconds in qualifying to Button on his early season dominance streak).

Also I rate Kimi's McLaren times really high, especially seasons 2003 and 2005 were something really special in my opinion. Back then he also had not only the race pace but also the blizzering qualifying speed as Michelins suited him much better than the Bridgestones thereafter.

As F1 has really dozens of different variables, it's really difficult to figure out superiority between different drivers (especially when it's not even easy to define total skill -- how should you for example weight quali speed versus ability to drive car that has non-ideal set-up versus overtaking skills versus...). Therefore in my opinion it's definately not laughable at all to state that Kimi has drive several years on higher level than Alonso on his maximum. Altogether, I have always had the impression that Alonso's success has always been based on more like hard work, excellent consistency in the races and building the team around him more than overwhelming natural skill.

How am I kidding? He's the only driver to come close to winning a championship from vettel in the last 3 years. Mclaren has a driver who should have been able to do the same thing, but it hasn't happened. Who the hell is in a better spot in F1 than Alonso? Maybe Button next year, but that depends on the car. Webber isn't in a better spot, because he has a team mate who is better than him -> no chance of ever winning a title. None of the other teams should be even considered, they are not in the level of Ferrari (although Lotus was close-ish this year).

Kimi is truly overated, I seldom agree with this over-used term, but in my view it applies when it comes to Kimi. There is very little he can do wrong and almost anything he does right is considered great. I believe it is because of his "charisma" that appeals to a lot of people and I understand that, although is not my cup of tea, I mean I enjoy his integraty and speaking his mind, but the whole not caring atittude is not something that appeals to me very much.

Regardless of personality, Kimi basically was basically the reason Massa was considered a top driver for some years on pair with Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. Remember people's list as the top drivers from 07-09? It had a lof of Massa in there. I I think Piquet Jr was hard with his words, but I agree that the Lotus team is just about the best team at the moment to be, specially if you are a rookie. It is a fast reliably car and a team mate in Raikkonen considered great by many in the circus, but that is only good in my view. Is a driver that is not very consistently in top form taking 100% of the car, is a driver that leaves a lot of openings in the team as far as leadership with his not caring very much atitude. So Groseajn has a chance to look good. While Picket Jr had Alonso as a team mate, who is basically a driver with virtually no holes and work horse, who takes everything the car has to give and some consistently.

Regardless of personality, Kimi basically was basically the reason Massa was considered a top driver for some years ... Remember people's list as the top drivers from 07-09? It had a lof of Massa in there.

Being able to match in pace -and beat sometimes- and compete over a full season with Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso in roughly equal cars helped as much as doing it with Kimi Räikkönen.

Of course there was talk about Massa being top back then, he was. Or maybe Hamilton, Räikkönen and Alonso are overated. I don´t think so, but if that´s your criteria...

Every driver has a driving style which suits them the most. As you are aware, the drivers set up their cars on Fridays and Saturdays for the Race and qualy. Once you setup your car for qualy, you cant change it for the race. Kimi has a less aggressive driving style. He turns in smoothly and likes a responding rear to exit the apex. Kimi is not the kind who makes major steering inputs unlike Fernando. He is a driver who thrives in the art of minimalism input. He likes to keep the steering at a degree where the car is dancing on the edge. This style makes him what he is. This style makes him one of the fastest drivers in the world. You can go and watch the flying lap where they discussed driving styles and the driver coach mentioned kimi is the quickest on one lap. As with every human, there are strenghts and weaknesses to a particular style. With Kimi, in order to keep the balance on the optimum, he has to forego qualy pace. Since he is gentle on his tyres, it becomes difficult to extract heat on one lap pace as compared to other aggressive drives. But the same style allows him to go super quick in the races. He can pound fastest lap after fastest lap without disturbing his tyres. Stats prove me right with the number of fastest laps he had. And the last race is a testament to what I am trying to get you to understand. So its not always about supreme qualy pace. Kimi is mature, he knows he can qualify at the top, but that will really hinder his chances in the race. So you look for a balance. Thats why you hear so many drivers saying they are loking for the best balance. balance is defined under Formula 1 terms as the give and take between race pace and qualy pace. You take some, you lose some, in the end the perfect balance sets you up for the race.

I think this Kimi generate heat into tyres is over exaggerated by Alonso fans. Thats why I take a hit on Alonso. There is nothing wrong in Kimis qualy pace. He himself trades it for a better race pace. Just coz he might not generate enough heat doesnt mean he is not quick. It is coz he choses not to adapt to such a setup. What he needs is a setup which will allow him to generate heat into tyres and retain the balance in the race too. And looking at the last race, they are getting there.

The only thing Kimi is faster than Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel is raising the Champagne glass. Driver coach? I know Kimi hardcorde fan's would love to forget it. But Kimi would qualy neck and neck with Massa for nearly 3 years in a row, while I believe Massa was able to qualy ahead of Alonso for the first time the last race, If I am not mistaken. Now that is a "driver's coach" assessment for you.

But Kimi would qualy neck and neck with Massa for nearly 3 years in a row, while I believe Massa was able to qualy ahead of Alonso for the first time the last race.

Of course he was. He was neck and neck with ANYONE back then, including Hamilton and Alonso in roughly equal cars

In fact he got 6 poles, while Hamilton got 5, and Alonso got 2 (3 if you count Hungary) in 2007, in quite evenly matched machinary. In 2008 he made 6 poles, while Hamilton got 7 again in evenly matched machinary.

Of course he was. He was neck and neck with ANYONE back then, including Hamilton and Alonso in roughly equal cars

In fact he got 6 poles, while Hamilton got 5, and Alonso got 2 (3 if you count Hungary) in 2007, in quite evenly matched machinary. In 2008 he made 6 poles, while Hamilton got 7 again in evenly matched machinary.

Quite evenly machinary, eh, I am not sure about that one. In my view, events of late has shown that Ferrari 07 and specially 08 problably had an oustanding machine, but we will never be sure. What we can be sure is how Massa fared with Kimi and how Alonso is fairing with Massa now, that is as comparable as it gets in F1.

Quite evenly machinary, eh, I am not sure about that one. In my view, events of late has shown that Ferrari 07 and specially 08 problably had an oustanding machine, but we will never be sure. What we can be sure is how Massa fared with Kimi and how Alonso is fairing with Massa now, that is as comparable as it gets in F1.

It is good to see Massa recovering to reclaim some of his former pace. It has been a long process for him but we are now seeing progress.

Kimi is truly overated, I seldom agree with this over-used term, but in my view it applies when it comes to Kimi.

TBH Kimi has likely been the most impressive driver in F1 this year. I recommend taking a little closer look at the actual driving and a little less time making points comparisons between teammates. According to the teammate comparisons, Kimi destroys Alonso bc Alonso got beaten by Trulli and Fisichella some times, Barichello destroys Hamilton because he beat Button and Button beat Hamilton even more times, etc.

TBH Kimi has likely been the most impressive driver in F1 this year. I recommend taking a little closer look at the actual driving and a little less time making points comparisons between teammates. According to the teammate comparisons, Kimi destroys Alonso bc Alonso got beaten by Trulli and Fisichella some times, Barichello destroys Hamilton because he beat Button and Button beat Hamilton even more times, etc.

Oh, again the "Trulli beat Alonso" myth while it was more like Trulli matching a very young Alonso in 2004 and just because Alonso had more retirements! Under normal circumstances... See what happened in 2003 even before Flavio and Trulli argued...

Regardless of personality, Kimi basically was basically the reason Massa was considered a top driver for some years on pair with Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. Remember people's list as the top drivers from 07-09? It had a lof of Massa in there.

Your opinions is false and is far from the truth. For example here. Did you read Santander and Kimi case story? Santander wanted to enter to Ferrari and Ferrari made the car to be worse for Kimi. In that case Massa took unfair advantadge.

On the other point of you post - i was smiling enought about your hating and fanatism.

Your opinions is false and is far from the truth. For example here. Did you read Santander and Kimi case story? Santander wanted to enter to Ferrari and Ferrari made the car to be worse for Kimi. In that case Massa took unfair advantadge.

On the other point of you post - i was smiling enought about your hating and fanatism.

Oh, again the "Trulli beat Alonso" myth while it was more like Trulli matching a very young Alonso in 2004 and just because Alonso had more retirements! Under normal circumstances... See what happened in 2003 even before Flavio and Trulli argued...

The point was to look at the actual driving because all that stuff is idiotic.

What we can be sure is how Massa fared with Kimi and how Alonso is fairing with Massa now, that is as comparable as it gets in F1.

I don't think this is the best way to compare. Massa is not the same driver he once was. It's like saying Nico Rosberg is the greatest driver of all time and should have 10 WDC's because of how he compared to Michael Schumacher.

I agree with Pique Jr that Alonso is a better driver than Kimi at the moment (but only slightly) and probably would have got more out of the Lotus, especially because Alonso is better at heating up his tyres so might qualify better. I don't think he would/could have won the championship in Lotus or Sauber though.

Quite evenly machinary, eh, I am not sure about that one. In my view, events of late has shown that Ferrari 07 and specially 08 problably had an oustanding machine, but we will never be sure.

Go tell Alonso. His view about 2007 is pretty different to that.

You can make good points about any of these 4 cars being better/worse than the direct rival. Not agreeing they were really tight is plain ignorant though. And Massa was able to match any of these guys back then.

The thing is that MSC is not on the top of his game since a long ago, so he would never be able to do impressive things with poor machinery at this stage. No driver can do more than the car have to offer and those who claimed MSC could win in a Minardi were just being fools

Fools as Lewis fans who thinks he could win with cars like Force India and Toro Rosso

The thing is that MSC is not on the top of his game since a long ago, so he would never be able to do impressive things with poor machinery at this stage. No driver can do more than the car have to offer and those who claimed MSC could win in a Minardi were just being fools

Fools as Lewis fans who thinks he could win with cars like Force India and Toro Rosso

You're the fool to bet against that, Hamilton may well be able to win in a Force India or Toro Rosso just as Vettel did.

I agree with half of what Jr. said though. Grosjean is mentally weak, still prone to more accidents than anyone in F1 (bar Narain) and is very lucky to have Total holding his hand.

Case in point was today's run in with Pedro. Had it been Kobayashi or Senna or Di Resta, everyone would be laughing, blaming them and saying "he should be out of the sport". As it is, most people are more critical of De La Rosa, when almost 23 other drivers in the field would not have even tried the move Grosjean did, at least in qualifying.

The only merit Grosjean had was being able to outqualify a returning Kimi. Now that is gone, and he is looking like the worst teammate of any of the top 4 teams.

C'mon why would e expect anything different from a failure like Piquet Jnr. No-one honestly thought he was gonna say something positive did they surely ?

I don't understand why people consider Piquet a bad driver. He was a better driver than many of the recent drivers we have on the grid right now. The guy was 2nd only to Lewis Hamilton on GP2, did better than Grosjean (against Alonso) on race days and better than the 2011-2012 Massa against Alonso on qualy days. All this while being mistreated by the nasty Flavio Briatore on the Renault team.

The crashgate is a scandal, ethically questionable, etc, but the guy clearly was a solid F1 driver.

I don't understand why people consider Piquet a bad driver. He was a better driver than many of the recent drivers we have on the grid right now. The guy was 2nd only to Lewis Hamilton on GP2, did better than Grosjean (against Alonso) on race days and better than the 2011-2012 Massa against Alonso on qualy days. All this while being mistreated by the nasty Flavio Briatore on the Renault team.

The crashgate is a scandal, ethically questionable, etc, but the guy clearly was a solid F1 driver.

LOL.

And somehow that gives that idiot the right to judge current drivers?? MAybe he would have beaten Kimi in that Lotus this year to lay 3rd in the driver's championship

Without Kimi, Lotus would be going bankrupt this year... about NOW!! And that ass has the cheek to call a driver who single-handedly saved a team from going under by showing them winning is a possibility again, and that the sponsors are making the right choice by partnering with Lotus.

Without Kimi in 2012, there would be no PR, no Hype, no Burn, no Win, no Nothing for Lotus... but just another team who hires pay drivers!