They absolutely worked backwards from their ending, or really a list of things they felt they had to have. Acccording to interviews with Orci and others it boiled down to: 1) Earth in jeporady because box office 2) Khan because Khan 3) Klingons 4) heavy focus on character development of Kirk. Nothing inherently wrong with any of those things but when you try to force them all together into a cohesive whole you get things like the Klingons being a threat you can forget about as soon as they show up, and Khan turning into a super bad guy because the plot requires him to be one. That in turn leads to very, very dubious choices like reprising Nimoy, who is always worth seeing but serves no purpose in what is almost certainly his last turn as Spock, and the reprise of the end of WOK.

They had a very promising and challenging movie in their hands. It deals with serious themes. Its reach exceeds its grasp ultimately. Using the Botany Bay as a point of divergence is a brilliant idea that doesn't require Khan. Harrison as a character, a super soldier experiment from the study of the B.B. is a great idea and Harrison doesn't have to be Khan. He also can be a more nuanced character, ala Magneto, then the maniac he ultimately becomes for the sake of some trailer bait. The silliness around is he/isn't he Khan diminishes him and the story. Him being Khan is pointless - Marcus (the real bad guy) takes him off ice to what design starships? Because Khan is the expert there? - and the obvious Federation response to the destruction of Vulcan by forgetting itself for a moment and creating super soldiers to defend against threats real and perceived goes out the window. Another missed opportunity is Marcus. He's ultimately a paper character. Why isn't this character Pike? He's the one who suffers directly in the first film, and would understandably respond the way Marcus does given the events that take place.

Why isn't this character Pike? He's the one who suffers directly in the first film, and would understandably respond the way Marcus does given the events that take place.

That is what I always said about Count Dooku. Why isn't Dooku character QuiGon Jin? QuiGon going to the dark side would have put ObiWan in the middle of both his master and his apprentice going to the dark side. QuiGon was a waste of a character.

Disagree. Qui-Gon was a father figure for Anakin. If we learned anything about Anakin's journey, it's that he suffers continued loss. His first loss is leaving home, albeit as a freed slave. But then he loses his mentor, Qui-Gon, when he is killed by Darth Maul.

Logged

"You were entrusted to lead the Republic." - Vote for Ven Zallow from THE OLD REPUBLIC in figure polls!

Disagree. Qui-Gon was a father figure for Anakin. If we learned anything about Anakin's journey, it's that he suffers continued loss. His first loss is leaving home, albeit as a freed slave. But then he loses his mentor, Qui-Gon, when he is killed by Darth Maul.

Meh...how long did Anakin know Qui-Gon? I get the father figure concept, but can you really count a guy who was in your life for maybe a week as a father figure?

Disagree. Qui-Gon was a father figure for Anakin. If we learned anything about Anakin's journey, it's that he suffers continued loss. His first loss is leaving home, albeit as a freed slave. But then he loses his mentor, Qui-Gon, when he is killed by Darth Maul.

Meh...how long did Anakin know Qui-Gon? I get the father figure concept, but can you really count a guy who was in your life for maybe a week as a father figure?

I'd say he made a better one than Watto. But I think that was what Qui-Gon's role in the saga was to be- the father figure, but I get what you're saying. Still, look at all the things Qui-Gon did for him, freed him, fought for him to be in the order, believed in him... it may have been enough to have that impact on Anakin. Of course, the other father-figure perversed that training.

Qui-Gon opened Anakin's eyes to the fact that he was gifted in The Force. That in addition to freeing him from slavery were the biggest turning points in Anakins life at that point in time. But the more important thing to keep in mind is that Qui-Gon is part of the recurring theme of loss.

Back on topic...

I just watched Star Trek - Into Darkness via Amazon Prime. I don't think that it's necessarily appropriate to draw parallels between this movie and Star Trek 2 - The Wrath of Khan. This story seems to be more in line time-wise with the discovery of Khan and the Botany Bay crew from the original series. Beyond that, I saw it as a pure popcorn movie. It started to get into some themes we saw in the original series based films, like the war mongering elements from within the Federation and the unknowns of the Klingons.

Still, there were things that stuck out and bothered me. The "cold fusion" bomb? And a Federation incursion into Klingon space all the way to Kronos? I'm also more than a little annoyed by Kirk's quick ascendance from Cadet to Captain. From a story standpoint I'm having a problem with that. And Kirk's revival was a little bit of a stretch in terms of suspending my disbelief. Plus, the whole sequence leading up to that seemed more than a little unoriginal. I can see that given where the Trek reboot has taken us would probably lead to some parallel things happening. But again we're looking at a story that probably should have been based more on "Space Seed" than on ST2-TWOK.

Logged

"You were entrusted to lead the Republic." - Vote for Ven Zallow from THE OLD REPUBLIC in figure polls!

Qui-Gon opened Anakin's eyes to the fact that he was gifted in The Force. That in addition to freeing him from slavery were the biggest turning points in Anakins life at that point in time. But the more important thing to keep in mind is that Qui-Gon is part of the recurring theme of loss.

Again, it's like a week they spent together. A busy, exciting week, but still just a week.

As for ST2, I viewed it as just a popcorn flick and was pretty happy with that. You can nitpick any scifi movie to pieces as to what was or wasn't realistic, and this has more flaws than it should, but overall a pretty fun ride IMO.

I do like your comment on Kirk's acension though. I think a lot of big budget movies get made these days with a sense of "this could be a flop" and because of that producers feel like they have to get to the peak of the character's existance ASAP. That bothers me. It could have been a lot more fun watchig Kirk climb the ladder a little slower, building his friendships and experience over time. Giving him the helm and every one of his crew (including Spock) becomming his instant BFF feels a little hollow to me.

I liked Trek... Not so much TOS but I love TNG and DS9 (and Voyager to a lesser extent). I like the new movies, but I'm also not one of the Trek fans with a stick up his ass about anything either.

It's like EU was to Star Wars... I ignored it mostly and still will going forward. A bad cartoon (which IMO Rebels is sorta leaning more to negative than positive) doesn't ruin the movies to me. The Prequals didn't ruin the OT, etc., etc.