I can't find a thread on this. I'm not sure if it indicates a level of non-interest.

I was just looking at pictures of this, since it's on clearance at Entertainment Earth. Still don't think I'll get it, but I had a few questions:

1) Is this "Hondo Karr" fellow just a repainted ANH Luke Skywalker? In fact, is he even repainted? He looks just like Luke.

2) What's so special about the female Stormtrooper? She supposedly has "unique" armor because she's a girl, but I don't see any difference aside from the scale. Not to be crude, but she must be the most flat-chested woman in the Empire.

3) What's with Darth Tessek's, uh, string-attached-to-a-knife-hilt thing? Is that supposed to be one of those stupid "lightwhips" like that stupid Lumiya character used in stupid comics that should've been forgotten but were dredged up for stupid novels? Shouldn't it, uh, not be black, if it's made of light?

Mr. JabbaJohnL

12-03-2009, 06:38 PM

1) Is this "Hondo Karr" fellow just a repainted ANH Luke Skywalker? In fact, is he even repainted? He looks just like Luke.
No, it's a completely new head sculpt. The hair makes him look like Luke, though. It's more mullet-y in the back.

2) What's so special about the female Stormtrooper? She supposedly has "unique" armor because she's a girl, but I don't see any difference aside from the scale. Not to be crude, but she must be the most flat-chested woman in the Empire.
It's more or less the same armor as a man's, but like you said, smaller. I think she has the same leg sculpt, but the arms are thinner and the chest has more room for her, uh, humps.

3) What's with Darth Tessek's, uh, string-attached-to-a-knife-hilt thing? Is that supposed to be one of those stupid "lightwhips" like that stupid Lumiya character used in stupid comics that should've been forgotten but were dredged up for stupid novels? Shouldn't it, uh, not be black, if it's made of light?
I guess it's a "shock whip", not a light whip, whatever that means. Maybe it's a normal whip that he sends an electric shock through, but I can't say for sure.

I got this set back in March. It's okay, but I really haven't given it a ton of thought since then. Since you and I both aren't fans of Legacy, Chux, I'd say you'd be more than fine passing on it.

bobafrett

12-03-2009, 06:47 PM

I purchased two of them, one to open, the second to open. I plan on taking the bearded dude, and making him into me.

JediTricks

12-03-2009, 06:57 PM

There's another thread, but I don't remember what it's called, it's not this.

1) It's a totally different sculpt, but a similar-looking character.

2) They chest is different, they gave her torso a feminine waist, and slightly smaller limbs.

3) Darth Maleval uses a shock whip in the comic, which is different from a lightwhip. Originally, Hasbro was going to do it red like the activated whip, but then they released that string of it deactivated in the final version: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shock_whip

I was really excited by this set initially, 4 basic Stormies, a lady Stormie, and the Quarren Sith looked cool. But the prototype didn't match the production models, the lightwhip became a cheap string, the helmets use the small lens sculpt which is awkward and don't fit as well, Maleval's cloak got really cheap looking, and all the paint got a little "lesser than". That said, the only thing holding me back from buying it when all was said and done was EE's shipping prices, even once when they dropped the main pricetag for a sale price, their shipping plus tax here in CA was too much for my blood.

Yak did a good photo guide of the set here: http://www.yakface.com/TGuide2004/html/TLC/exclusives/jokersquad.html

El Chuxter

12-03-2009, 07:02 PM

Okay, thanks. I can see a bit more difference in the Stormtroopette's sculpt in those pics. That one dude, though, man, he looks just like Luke Skywalker. In fact, I think that might be a better ANH Luke headsculpt than more than half the actual ANH Lukes!

Darth Tessek's armor looks pretty cool without the cloak, I must say.

JediTricks

12-04-2009, 01:54 AM

Maleval's armor without the cloak reminds me the tiniest bit of Durge, just in the way the shoulders and waist proportions are.

morpheus282

12-05-2009, 12:39 PM

What's so special about the female Stormtrooper? She supposedly has "unique" armor because she's a girl, but I don't see any difference aside from the scale. Not to be crude, but she must be the most flat-chested woman in the Empire.

It's more or less the same armor as a man's, but like you said, smaller. I think she has the same leg sculpt, but the arms are thinner and the chest has more room for her, uh, humps.

You're both right. The female stormtrooper sculpt is very similar to the male in that she does appear to be rather flat chested. It's different because it's more tapered around the waist and has a longer midriff section. When you put it next to the standard male version you can see a significant difference. I got it from eBay since it was the only one in the set I was actually interested in. I was a little disappointed in the chest armor sculpt (wink wink, nudge nudge).

DarkJedi5

12-05-2009, 01:36 PM

I bought this set but only once it went on sale from EE. I'm not a fan of Legacy stuff but the Sith lord is cool and getting at least three plain Stormtroopers was welcome. Especially for those who hate the Jango heads or want variety under the buckets. The trooper with the paint on his arms is pretty useless if you're doing an OT dio or something but you could also try and remove it or paint over it too. The chick was a neat novelty and so when I bought the set for $20 it didn't seem like such a bad deal.

bobafrett

12-07-2009, 09:37 AM

Does anyone know if the yellow stripe comes off the armor easily?

DarkJedi5

12-07-2009, 12:35 PM

Haven't tried, but if you've got a technique I'd be more than happy to make mine a guinea pig.

El Chuxter

12-07-2009, 02:10 PM

Rubbing alcohol and a lot of elbow grease seem to work pretty well. If it's the soft, rubbery plastic, acetone might work, but do not try that if it's the harder plastic, as it will just melt.

mabudonicus

12-07-2009, 02:42 PM

MEK will probably work, but make SURE you use it in a super-well ventilated area. Just paint it on and leave it for a few seconds, then use a piece of clean white cardboard (comic-book backers are fine) to scrape the paint off. Don't use too much MEK, just a thin coat will work. Testors "liquid model cement" is MEK, if you can't find it elsewhere. I used tihs technique on heroclix to take the paint off of them, and they are actually real rubbery plastic. Hope this helps!
:beard: Iso&Baws&Topes
the fumes can make things very goofy so be careful

DarkJedi5

12-07-2009, 03:16 PM

MEK will probably work, but make SURE you use it in a super-well ventilated area. Just paint it on and leave it for a few seconds, then use a piece of clean white cardboard (comic-book backers are fine) to scrape the paint off. Don't use too much MEK, just a thin coat will work. Testors "liquid model cement" is MEK, if you can't find it elsewhere. I used tihs technique on heroclix to take the paint off of them, and they are actually real rubbery plastic. Hope this helps!
:beard: Iso&Baws&Topes
the fumes can make things very goofy so be careful

Sounds good, but I may have to wait until after finals, wouldn't want to walk into one of those on the loopy side....

JediTricks

12-07-2009, 05:12 PM

EE has the set for $17 now. I may have to pull the trigger, even with the white holsters.

bobafrett

12-08-2009, 03:15 PM

I got my two sets today, so I might experiment, or see if I can do a head swap with one of the clean armor troopers. I thought about using sand paper, a super fine grade, but still fear a rough texture on the armor.

morpheus282

12-11-2009, 10:37 PM

I got my two sets today, so I might experiment, or see if I can do a head swap with one of the clean armor troopers. I thought about using sand paper, a super fine grade, but still fear a rough texture on the armor.

Try a felt polishing pad on a Dremel at very low speed. I'd try it on one of the thousands of painted clones first though as they're much easier to replace.

Snowtrooper

12-12-2009, 01:41 AM

EE has the set for $17 now. I may have to pull the trigger, even with the white holsters.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm more interested in it for Malevel, however.

Snowtrooper

12-12-2009, 07:22 PM

Well, I went and ordered myself a set. It came out to $27 with the shipping. Thats still $9 better then the previous cheapest price I've seen seen for.

bobafrett

12-14-2009, 09:14 AM

When I ordered my set, they were $14.99 each, and I ordered enough other discounted stuff that I got free shipping, which was awesome since they shipped the stuff seperately. I also picked up a Darth Vader stien, the Cantina band tin set, and a MsFarlane Cubs player Alfonso Soriano figure.

JediTricks

01-04-2010, 05:47 PM

With all the hubbub around the holidays, I didn't end up ordering this. Anybody here get it? What are your thoughts?

pbarnard

01-04-2010, 05:53 PM

I got it much earlier. Buy it if you want the Sith Lord. The storm troopers are all bad head sculpt kitbashes which aren't 100% accurate to the artwork which is the reason for the white holsters.

Darth Jax

01-04-2010, 07:19 PM

i picked it up on sale from EE shortly before the holidays. as with most of my collection it remains firmly encased within plastic until i'm able to display it. it does like ok in the box though. the thread whip and white holster is slightly distracting, but easily overlooked.

along with tycho, i suffer the delusion that eventually i'll be able to display my entire collection in the manner of my choosing.

JediTricks

01-04-2010, 07:34 PM

I got it much earlier. Buy it if you want the Sith Lord. The storm troopers are all bad head sculpt kitbashes which aren't 100% accurate to the artwork which is the reason for the white holsters.
Thanks for the info. I was going to get it for the Stormies, so that's out.

pbarnard

01-04-2010, 07:43 PM

Thanks for the info. I was going to get it for the Stormies, so that's out.

Well they're accurate if you want OT stormies with helmets on minus the holster thing. There is a slight difference in armor with Legacy troopers that isn't conveyed.

JediTricks

01-04-2010, 08:17 PM

The helmets look wrong to me, the bubbles are painted small and they sit funny on those heads in all the pics I saw.

Mr. JabbaJohnL

01-05-2010, 04:53 AM

The helmets look wrong to me, the bubbles are painted small and they sit funny on those heads in all the pics I saw.
Pretty much, yeah. If you want plain stormies, you could do better. But since they're so cheap the somewhat ill-fitting helmets might not be that much of an issue. I actually haven't looked at these guys for quite a while; I bought them back in March and they're not exactly the most exciting releases so they can kind of get lost in the crowd.

El Chuxter

01-31-2010, 07:46 PM

I was shocked to find this at a Ross store today for $14.99. They only had one. I bought it, partly for custom fodder upon seeing the heads. (That Sergeant guy looks just like General Joe Colton, the original GIJoe in the comics.) Is the bald guy a re-use of Serpentor's head, or a totally new bald sculpt? I've not compared them side-by-side, but they're quite similar.

At the risk of being crude, the lady Stormie has some really jacked-up boobs. Given the size and the way they protrude, they appear to be way too high on the torso. I guess they have durasteel underwires, or something. :D

pbarnard

02-01-2010, 02:10 PM

I was shocked to find this at a Ross store today for $14.99. They only had one. I bought it, partly for custom fodder upon seeing the heads. (That Sergeant guy looks just like General Joe Colton, the original GIJoe in the comics.) Is the bald guy a re-use of Serpentor's head, or a totally new bald sculpt? I've not compared them side-by-side, but they're quite similar.

At the risk of being crude, the lady Stormie has some really jacked-up boobs. Given the size and the way they protrude, they appear to be way too high on the torso. I guess they have durasteel underwires, or something. :D

The bald head is actually Basso sans tatoo ring. There's a major difference in head construction between GI Joe and SW (anatomically speaking Joe heads are a skull that sits ontop of the spinal column centered and foreman magnum while a SW head is sort of semi-sealed version including 4 or 5 cervical vertbrae before joing the neck).

Mr. JabbaJohnL

02-01-2010, 02:14 PM

The bald head is actually Basso sans tatoo ring. There's a major difference in head construction between GI Joe and SW (anatomically speaking Joe heads are a skull that sits ontop of the spinal column centered and foreman magnum while a SW head is sort of semi-sealed version including 4 or 5 cervical vertbrae before joing the neck).
Are they the same? For reference, here's Basso (http://www.rebelscum.com/TAC/TACcomic15BHD1.jpg), and here's Vax Potorr (http://www.rebelscum.com/TLC/Exclusives/JokerSquad/LC-2576.jpg). I didn't make the connection until you pointed it out . . . the lips and nose on Basso look a little bigger, but I can't be sure. I'll have to look more closely next time I'm home.

pbarnard

02-01-2010, 02:16 PM

There might be some difference, probably due to factory/run changes because exclusive vs Wide released figure. I haven't broken out the digital calipers to measure or anything like that.

pbarnard

02-01-2010, 07:09 PM

Well, they maybe using the head yet again...or one just like it on Gen Weir and the last of the Wal-Mart Comic packs.

http://www.rebelscum.com/TLCcomicpacksWM102.asp

El Chuxter

03-09-2010, 09:37 PM

Well, my daughter wanted the set I got for parts. I promised her I'd get another if I saw it.

I was floored today to find six sets at a Ross near my house (which had none as recently as last Thursday). So she gets her girl Stormtrooper and is happy. :D

JediTricks

03-10-2010, 05:14 PM

Gah, I have to hit Ross by me!

JediTricks

03-25-2010, 12:34 AM

And I did, and got a set.

At $15, it's an ok set, but it really doesn't feel like it's up to snuff for the line, and the problem seems to be on Hasbro, just couldn't get the budget together to match the quality of the prototype.

The biggest drawback for me is Darth Maleval, a figure whose prototype had wholly sold me on this set. Unfortunately, the production version's deco totally drops the ball, using a bright orange base plastic color and sloppy black tattoo paint with sloppy eyes and mouth paint. The bright orange is repeated sloppily on the hands. It's a tragedy, there's a cool figure designed here but you wouldn't know it looking at the final version. Another problem is that the shock whip prototype was a nifty single piece with a bright blue whip (should have been orange, but it carried through in blue well too), but instead they gave it a very generic black string, and it's poorly attached to the handle.

What does work for Maleval is good articulation, a good, detailed body sculpt, and a nice removable cloak with wires in the hem and hood. He also sports a lightsaber to go with the whip, so he's a BMF (yet he eats it in his only issue, how Legacy of him ;)).

In terms of the other 5 figures (oh yeah, them), they're all on TAC Stormtrooper bodies except the ladytrooper, who gets a 100% new ladytrooper sculpt, the rest of them have unpainted white holsters (she has none). My second biggest problem with this set is that they totally blew it with the choice of trooper helmet. They have 2 regular ones to choose from, the ROTJ-style with the bigger lenses, and the ANH-style with the very small lenses and it's slightly smaller. Foolishly, they went with the ANH ones, and yes the lenses are closer to the Legacy era helmets but damn if they don't look worse, and their smaller size is a huge mistake, they don't fit well and most figures they end up misshaping on nearly every figure. Also, they painted the "chin" as one black section with no separation between the breather nozzles on the sides and the main grille, and except for Vax Potorr they didn't paint those nozzles (he got white dots at their ends, and his helmet mouth is different too).

Sgt Harkas has the yellowish AOTC-style stripes, and it works here. He's also the guy with the beard. His sculpt is decent, maybe his lower face is narrower or longer, but it's minor. They did put too much red into his hair though since he has none in the comic. His beard sticks out of the helmet which is a shame, you can cram the helmet on a little tighter so that it is barely noticeable but the rest of the helmet gets horribly warped by doing so.

Anson Trask is up next, and the headsculpt I think misses the mark. The eyes don't quite deliver for the character, and then the hair doesn't quite work because the flattened look is too much and the widows' peaks aren't sharp enough. Trask is sporting the bazooka from the GI Joe HEAT Viper (I still have the original accessory, it has the word "FANG" sculpted on the side, this one has been resculpted with a vent there) and it seems a bit large for a SW figure.

Jes Gistang is up next, the ladytrooper. I think they did a good job with this figure, it conveys what it has to, and the sculpting is pretty sharp. She's only bare noticeably feminine, mainly it's the higher "bust" on the chest armor, thinner arms and smaller hands, a wasp waisted design to the stomach panel, and they painted the helmet's "mouth" narrower than the guys'. That said, there are a few issues. The chest armor's bust is pretty high and narrow, doesn't seem quite right, but that's more an oddity in my book. The belt is a little odd, no holster, it's a bit loose, and the little packs on the belt are too narrow and stick out a little too much. Since they're using the armor style from the OT and not altering the mold to match the stomach panels or rear grenade of the Legacy trooper armor, they should have included a holster while they're at it. My last complaint is that the left hand is sculpted so daintily that it can't hold anything ever, I guess it's meant to cradle the blaster but it's pretty odd-looking.

Hondo Karr they gave more of a mullet to than he has in the book, it sticks out the back of the helmet which is a tad odd. He's also got a harder face sculpt than the comic character, but it helps him stand out from Luke Skywalker in stormtrooper disguise, since the likeness is similar in a lot of ways. Hondo is holding a knife with a silver blade, but the accessory is very generically sculpted with no knife-like details except hilt guards, and doesn't fit in his hand, too small.

Finally, Vax Potorr gets the "different helmet paint" helmet mentioned above, it does him no favors though. He's a bald guy, they gave him vulcan-like eyebrows for no reason, they're not from the comic that I can tell. He's fairly bland, and the likeness isn't really him but who cares, it's adequate.

Ultimately, this is a set I really wanted to like, and I almost bought from EE at full price, but just a couple bad choices (Maleval's deco, the small helmets) really crushed my interest in it, and ultimately I bought it on liquidation. And that's the bottom line, it seems like a set you'd find on liquidation because it seems like a knockoff, not the quality it should be in this line. There isn't even a dynamic background for them to be standing in front of, it's just blue, and the source image is just a small group shot (this one (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Jokers.jpg), but smaller and blurrier). It'll probably work in the background of my Imperials, and Maleval can hang out with Darth Talon, but I just keep wishing it was better.

figrin bran

03-25-2010, 01:10 AM

JT just saved me $14.99 plus tax with those comments.

I saw many of these sets in my Ross searches for the Cobra Island sets. They didn't really stand out as a must buy for me, especially since I bought 3 Defense of Cobra sets.

Snowtrooper

03-25-2010, 11:44 AM

JT, its too bad the Maleval you got had a bad paint job. The one I got has a pretty decent paint job except for the hands. It was the main reason for me getting the set too and I was pretty satisfied with it.

JediTricks

03-25-2010, 04:13 PM

I can't imagine any Maleval having a good enough paint job to work for me. Mine doesn't have a "bad job" per se, the applications aren't inaccurate or sloppy, it's the colors used for the base and the rather mediocre work for the tattoos. It was the same with all 4 sets I saw at Ross, plus the pics I've seen of every other set that was production level, even the sales pics on EE and Pawlus' video commercial: http://www.entertainmentearth.com/prodinfo.asp?number=HS87923

Darth Awgmon

03-25-2010, 04:57 PM

JT,
I think that Maleval is a pretty cool figure. The paint job could be a little better, but the overall figure (especially the body) looks badass. I TOTALLY agree with you on the helmets. They are all too small (except on the bald guy). Hasbro should have used the helmet that comes with the latest Han Solo with stormtrooper armor. That helmet is freaking HUGE.

Slicker

03-25-2010, 05:44 PM

When I was home in February I realized that I bought this pice of carp. It's different but what the hell is with the Tessek with the Maul face? That's definitely not straight.

mtriv73

03-25-2010, 05:53 PM

When I was home in February I realized that I bought this pice of carp. It's different but what the hell is with the Tessek with the Maul face? That's definitely not straight.

He's from the legacy comics. The Sith are back and they've gotten rid of the rule of two so there are tons of Sith of all different species. For some reason many have the red and black tatoos which must have something to do with something, but I can't figure out what it is.

Mr. JabbaJohnL

03-25-2010, 06:15 PM

He's from the legacy comics. The Sith are back and they've gotten rid of the rule of two so there are tons of Sith of all different species. For some reason many have the red and black tatoos which must have something to do with something, but I can't figure out what it is.
It's because 1) Darth Maul looked cool and 2) nothing in Star Wars can be unique anymore.

JediTricks

03-25-2010, 06:21 PM

JT,
I think that Maleval is a pretty cool figure. The paint job could be a little better, but the overall figure (especially the body) looks badass. Check out the prototype: http://photos.sirstevesguide.com/entertainmentearth-com/p29059-sdc-6713.html
and compare that to the production photo Pawlus took:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26599914@N04/3443008903/
It just looks cheap to me, and the original looked really good. The deco is the problem IMO.

JediTricks

03-25-2010, 06:32 PM

It's because 1) Darth Maul looked cool and 2) nothing in Star Wars can be unique anymore.
It's a "legacy".

El Chuxter

03-25-2010, 07:50 PM

The Sith chick from Legacy is proof of how mediocre the series is. It reads like bad fanfic. The main Sith Lord has to turn out to be a fan favorite prequel-era Jedi (who, of course, got an arm chopped off by Obi-Wan and wears Yuuzhan Vong armor, never mind he has even less motivation to turn into a Sith than Jacen Solo's nonexistent motivation). One character is a bikini-clad Twi'lek with Maul tattoos and a double bladed lightsaber. The main character is Luke's great-great-grandson, who's, of course, a smuggler.

If comics still cost $0.75 or $1, I could see buying this for the art, which is quite good. But for $3+ per issue, no way.

Slicker

03-25-2010, 11:25 PM

Everyone is just so unoriginal anymore.

If you want originality in EU then the only thing I can think of is the adventures of Frassk and his CMT's...

clone157

03-26-2010, 06:25 PM

Isn't originality in the EU kind of an oxymoron? I like the multi-species aspect of the Sith in this storyline. And who else should the series follow? Wicket? :D It's not that I am all about the series, it is kind of like Star Wars: The Next Generation. It is interesting in it's own way, but no, it is not as exciting as the source material.

JediTricks

03-27-2010, 05:36 PM

Isn't originality in the EU kind of an oxymoron? I like the multi-species aspect of the Sith in this storyline. And who else should the series follow? Wicket? :D It's not that I am all about the series, it is kind of like Star Wars: The Next Generation. It is interesting in it's own way, but no, it is not as exciting as the source material.
That's an interesting point. Nobody goes to Star Wars for originality, it's just a creative regurgitation of various different genres and ideas wrapped up in a modern yet simultaneously nostalgic manner. So why should there be any expectation of true originality from a Star Wars ancillary material? This isn't Discworld we're talking about, folks. There are still going to be lightsabers and Jedi and bad Jedi. History is full of cyclical behaviors from one generation to the next, why should Star Wars history be so different?

BTW, I love Star Trek: The Next Generation and feel that it was on par with the original while still being different enough. There's no reason "the next generation" of something has to be sub-par. Then again, it also takes superior vision, talent, and collaboration to drive it above par, so it's not surprising that Legacy is a little sub-par.

Mr. JabbaJohnL

03-27-2010, 06:08 PM

That's an interesting point. Nobody goes to Star Wars for originality, it's just a creative regurgitation of various different genres and ideas wrapped up in a modern yet simultaneously nostalgic manner. So why should there be any expectation of true originality from a Star Wars ancillary material? This isn't Discworld we're talking about, folks. There are still going to be lightsabers and Jedi and bad Jedi. History is full of cyclical behaviors from one generation to the next, why should Star Wars history be so different?

BTW, I love Star Trek: The Next Generation and feel that it was on par with the original while still being different enough. There's no reason "the next generation" of something has to be sub-par. Then again, it also takes superior vision, talent, and collaboration to drive it above par, so it's not surprising that Legacy is a little sub-par.
I love when Star Wars pays homage to an older story or movie since it's usually done well and with some degree of subtlety. When you've got fifty bad guys running around who look like they broke into Darth Maul's makeup kit, that's not an homage, that's just a lack of creativity. Is everyone automatically know that the Han-vs.-Greedo scene is very similar to a scene from The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly? No, but for those that do, it's a fun connection; many of these work on a subconscious level without being over-the-top. But, again, when Darth Copycat walks on the scene, the mind immediately connects it to Darth Maul in a blatant, obvious way. As for the cyclical behaviors in our own history - I mean, you don't see Neo-Nazis all wearing Hitler mustaches, do you? It's just too damn obvious in my mind.

While we're on the subject, and I've probably brought this up before, but the revival of the Sith undoes everything Anakin fought and died for in ROTJ, making his sacrifice and the prophecy of the Chosen One ultimately meaningless. They can explain it however they want, but it should never have happened.

I also like when unique things stay unique. Darth Maul looks awesome, but that's because he's the only person who looks like he does. Jango and Boba Fett are cool; having every single Mandalorian have super-tricked-our armor is not. The Sith are powerful and cool when there are only two of them. To me, having dozens of them dilutes their impact. (Which is also why I can't get excited for that Old Republic video game trailer everyone jizzed their pants about.)

DarkJedi5

03-27-2010, 11:15 PM

I also like when unique things stay unique. Darth Maul looks awesome, but that's because he's the only person who looks like he does. Jango and Boba Fett are cool; having every single Mandalorian have super-tricked-our armor is not.

Not to throw stones, but isn't your avatar one such tricked-out Mandalorian from an EU source?

El Chuxter

03-28-2010, 12:43 AM

While we're on the subject, and I've probably brought this up before, but the revival of the Sith undoes everything Anakin fought and died for in ROTJ, making his sacrifice and the prophecy of the Chosen One ultimately meaningless. They can explain it however they want, but it should never have happened.

Dude, you're going to crap yourself, but I 110% agree with you. When it comes to EU, anything written prior to 1999 can have multiple Sith Lords or Sith Lords post-Jedi. The rule didn't exist in the real world; the writers simply couldn't have known about it. Same thing with Republic-era Jedi marriage prior to 2002. You might have to make some corny retcons or explanations, but people can't follow rules they don't know about.

Anything written after 1999 with Sith Lords during or after the time of Maul (since we already know all three apprentices) is crap. Sheer, utter crap.

Whether the one who brings balance to the Force is Anakin or Luke, the fact remains: the Sith Order died at the Battle of Endor. Period. Fine if you want to have guys using the dark side, fine if you have full-on dark Jedi. Even fine if you have dark Jedi who want to call themselves Sith. But no real Sith. Bringing back the Sith means the Force is not in balance, it was never in balance, it might be impossible for it to be balanced, and the Jedi prophets were morons and/or liars. Even if I like further adventures, I love the happy ending we get in regard to the tale of the Jedi and Sith in ROTJ. This, for me, is not negotiable at all. Unless it's also negotiable to say that Luke and Leia aren't siblings.

I would actually go one further than you on the Mandaloreans. I thought Jango was beating a horse that was already dead. Heck, I prefer to think that Boba Fett got painfully digested (probably for weeks, rather than over a thousand years), and the guy claiming to be Boba Fett is kinda like that dude from Batman comics about 25 years back, who honestly thought he was Two-Face and went on a full-on Two-Face styled crime spree until the real Two-Face killed (?) him. He might think it, he might fool everyone else, but he ain't Boba, and the real Boba is sarlaac poop and can't prove this guy isn't.

Canon shmanon. I'm reading this stuff; I decide for my own damned self what happens in Star Wars in my mind. I don't need Steve Sansweet or whoever to tell me how things fit together.

Mr. JabbaJohnL

03-28-2010, 02:18 AM

Not to throw stones, but isn't your avatar one such tricked-out Mandalorian from an EU source?
I figured someone would bring that up. It's Pre Vizsla, from The Clone Wars. These Mandalorians represent the norm in that society; we already know from established sources that they were a society (though this itself has been expressed numerous ways). So I'm fine with seeing them, and I like how they made it so that Jango took the standard armor and added all the bells and whistles to it, making him more unique than the others (whether he himself is a Mandalorian is debatable). And cinematically, the main guy has to look different from the others . . . but I'm fine with adding a cape and an emblem on the helmet. This (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061209031507/starwars/images/8/87/Mandalorian_wedding.jpg), on the other hand, is something with which I'm not entirely fine.

Dude, you're going to crap yourself, but I 110% agree with you. When it comes to EU, anything written prior to 1999 can have multiple Sith Lords or Sith Lords post-Jedi. The rule didn't exist in the real world; the writers simply couldn't have known about it. Same thing with Republic-era Jedi marriage prior to 2002. You might have to make some corny retcons or explanations, but people can't follow rules they don't know about.

Anything written after 1999 with Sith Lords during or after the time of Maul (since we already know all three apprentices) is crap. Sheer, utter crap.

Whether the one who brings balance to the Force is Anakin or Luke, the fact remains: the Sith Order died at the Battle of Endor. Period. Fine if you want to have guys using the dark side, fine if you have full-on dark Jedi. Even fine if you have dark Jedi who want to call themselves Sith. But no real Sith. Bringing back the Sith means the Force is not in balance, it was never in balance, it might be impossible for it to be balanced, and the Jedi prophets were morons and/or liars. Even if I like further adventures, I love the happy ending we get in regard to the tale of the Jedi and Sith in ROTJ. This, for me, is not negotiable at all. Unless it's also negotiable to say that Luke and Leia aren't siblings.
See, Chux, we can get along. ;) :D Had these shmucks in Legacy called themselves anything - seriously, anything - other than "Sith", I would be much more accepting of them (though the Darth Maul makeup is still overkill). I think the creators tried to explain it away by saying that these were a different sect of Sith, or something, which is still just stupid as all hell. As for the happy ending, I prefer to think that they all lived happily ever after (each film basically begins with "Once upon a time", so why not), but it's completely within reason to think that they'd still have to deal with remnants of the Empire as seen in HTTE and so on. But the Sith . . . well, they died when Anakin Skywalker killed Darth Vader and Darth Sidious over Endor. There's no two ways about it.

As for other Sith during the times of the movies - I love how each Sith seems to be constantly plotting to destroy the other, so it makes sense to me that Tyranus would have Asajj Ventress in place to kill Sidious, and that Vader would raise Starkiller to do the same; we saw it in the OT with Vader trying to lure Luke, and we can assume that Sidious was already raising Maul when he killed Plagueis. I'm fine with all that because they're not Sith, and it works in the framework of what we already know about these characters from the films themselves.

I would actually go one further than you on the Mandaloreans. I thought Jango was beating a horse that was already dead. Heck, I prefer to think that Boba Fett got painfully digested (probably for weeks, rather than over a thousand years), and the guy claiming to be Boba Fett is kinda like that dude from Batman comics about 25 years back, who honestly thought he was Two-Face and went on a full-on Two-Face styled crime spree until the real Two-Face killed (?) him. He might think it, he might fool everyone else, but he ain't Boba, and the real Boba is sarlaac poop and can't prove this guy isn't.
Well, I can accept Jango Fett since he is where Boba got his rebellious side. Jango made Boba, both literally and figuratively. Those two guys are dangerous and definitely (should be) not the norm. When the EU establishes a ton of badass Mandalorian mercenaries, it takes away from it in my mind. (Even though it was established long ago that they're a group of supercommandoes . . . again, that's fine, but let's keep Jango and Boba unique apart from that, whether it's in terms of profession, or gear, or whatever.) Which is why seeing a female Mandalorian shooting Jedi with a double flamethrower in that Old Republic trailer wasn't cool but just over-the-top.

El Chuxter

03-28-2010, 12:55 PM

As for other Sith during the times of the movies - I love how each Sith seems to be constantly plotting to destroy the other, so it makes sense to me that Tyranus would have Asajj Ventress in place to kill Sidious, and that Vader would raise Starkiller to do the same; we saw it in the OT with Vader trying to lure Luke, and we can assume that Sidious was already raising Maul when he killed Plagueis. I'm fine with all that because they're not Sith, and it works in the framework of what we already know about these characters from the films themselves.

But they weren't Sith, even if they called themselves that. I don't know if the CG cartoon has overridden anything, but in the comics and 2D cartoon, Asajj called herself a Sith and desperately wanted to become one. But both Dooku and Palpatine sort of laughed her off. It's possible, had everyone lived longer, that Dooku would have set her up as an apprentice, but she couldn't be the true Sith Apprentice until Dooku became the Master.

Mr. JabbaJohnL

03-28-2010, 02:55 PM

But they weren't Sith, even if they called themselves that. I don't know if the CG cartoon has overridden anything, but in the comics and 2D cartoon, Asajj called herself a Sith and desperately wanted to become one. But both Dooku and Palpatine sort of laughed her off. It's possible, had everyone lived longer, that Dooku would have set her up as an apprentice, but she couldn't be the true Sith Apprentice until Dooku became the Master.
Yeah, I know. I guess I didn't articulate that clearly enough. What I meant was, I like how the Sith apprentices always seem to be plotting to overthrow the master, which usually manifests itself in the apprentices taking their own disciples so they can become the master and take the disciple as their apprentice.

JediTricks

03-28-2010, 04:42 PM

When you've got fifty bad guys running around who look like they broke into Darth Maul's makeup kit, that's not an homage, that's just a lack of creativity. [...]
But, again, when Darth Copycat walks on the scene, the mind immediately connects it to Darth Maul in a blatant, obvious way. As for the cyclical behaviors in our own history - I mean, you don't see Neo-Nazis all wearing Hitler mustaches, do you? It's just too damn obvious in my mind.What made you think that Darth Maul's tattoos were unique? The design was come up with randomly in the process by Ian McCaig messing around, but in canon the ancient Sith were already using tattoos for rank in the Tales of the Jedi comics from '97. They are "sith tattoos", it's not like Darth Maul drew them in his spare time and when he got some money he drove down to the Coruscant tattoo parlor and had them ink up his design. It is not so surprising that when there are more Sith, there might be more "sith tattoos" seen as well. I don't hear you complaining that there are too many Jedi running around in the same costume, or that all the Sith use the same-color lightsaber.

While we're on the subject, and I've probably brought this up before, but the revival of the Sith undoes everything Anakin fought and died for in ROTJ, making his sacrifice and the prophecy of the Chosen One ultimately meaningless. They can explain it however they want, but it should never have happened.The prophecy was tacked on, the rule of 2 was tacked on, the idea that the Dark Side can be forever defeated seems unrealistic to me. The Force is a tool, tools can be used for good or evil. Clearly, other Force-users before Palps and Maul have turned to the Dark Side, it seems unlikely that the death of Palpatine meant the end of evil, especially when there was only 1 half-trained Jedi out there to keep any potential Force-users away from the Dark Side, which is quicker and more seductive.

I also like when unique things stay unique. Darth Maul looks awesome, but that's because he's the only person who looks like he does. Jango and Boba Fett are cool; having every single Mandalorian have super-tricked-our armor is not. The Sith are powerful and cool when there are only two of them. To me, having dozens of them dilutes their impact. (Which is also why I can't get excited for that Old Republic video game trailer everyone jizzed their pants about.)Funny you mention the Mando armor, it's one of the things I complained about in the Clone Wars thread, and you dug and defended it.

Moving along from that though...

How many non turned-Jedi have we seen in the movies? 2, making tattoos common to half the known Sith. Palps was a cold warrior, his actions were about subterfuge so it'd be foolish to wear tats, he created Maul to be his scary Sith pitbull which meant Maul didn't need to be inconspicuous. In the time of Legacy, a different Sith order, one without the need to hide or obey the rule of 2, has come to be so they are not saddled with the rule of 2 or the need for subterfuge. If Maul were the only one who ever looked like that, past, present, or future, it would make his tattoos incongruous with the Sith, it would be an anomaly - and in the movie universe, that's exactly what it is, because it's an affectation that serves no purpose except the aesthetics of 1 guy. But if everything is to have a meaning, even the shape of the clasp on Palpatine's robes, then those tattoos had to have some origin, there had to be some logic behind them, and thus they can be repeated.

the Sith Order died at the Battle of Endor. Period. Fine if you want to have guys using the dark side, fine if you have full-on dark Jedi. Even fine if you have dark Jedi who want to call themselves Sith. But no real Sith. Bringing back the Sith means the Force is not in balance, it was never in balance, it might be impossible for it to be balanced, and the Jedi prophets were morons and/or liarsThat stems from your assumption about what the prophecy meant. If prequel-era EU Yoda's interpretation is correct, then there can be no use of the Dark Side ever again, but that is patently ludicrous and thoughtless and childish (and yes I know that stems directly from Lucas, but a lot of bad ideas that were cast aside have been as well), and it violates the very ideas Lucas sets forward in ANH and more specifically in ESB. Nowhere does the prophecy of the chosen one say the word "Sith", it just says "…And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as THE SON OF THE SUNS". The pre-movie Jedi interpretation of the prophecy was cast aside since the Jedi assumed they had ALREADY DEFEATED THE SITH MILLENNIA AGO! What does that tell you? That it's really easy to screw up prophecy, and that the Sith are more resilient. The term "Sith" is just a name these order of Dark Jedi ascribe to themselves, it's not that they're born of a race or something, it's a choice.

I figured someone would bring that up. It's Pre Vizsla, from The Clone Wars. These Mandalorians represent the norm in that society; we already know from established sources that they were a society (though this itself has been expressed numerous ways). So I'm fine with seeing them, and I like how they made it so that Jango took the standard armor and added all the bells and whistles to it, making him more unique than the others (whether he himself is a Mandalorian is debatable). And cinematically, the main guy has to look different from the others . . . but I'm fine with adding a cape and an emblem on the helmet. This (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061209031507/starwars/images/8/87/Mandalorian_wedding.jpg), on the other hand, is something with which I'm not entirely fine.That picture is pretty silly, but as for the rest, my argument above reflects on this strongly in regards to tattoos being 1/2 of the known Sith look in the movies.

See, Chux, we can get along. ;) :D Had these shmucks in Legacy called themselves anything - seriously, anything - other than "Sith", I would be much more accepting of them (though the Darth Maul makeup is still overkill). I think the creators tried to explain it away by saying that these were a different sect of Sith, or something, which is still just stupid as all hell. As for the happy ending, I prefer to think that they all lived happily ever after (each film basically begins with "Once upon a time", so why not), but it's completely within reason to think that they'd still have to deal with remnants of the Empire as seen in HTTE and so on. But the Sith . . . well, they died when Anakin Skywalker killed Darth Vader and Darth Sidious over Endor. There's no two ways about it.There is real life precedent, look at "Neo Nazis" and all the things they call themselves. When a name is given power, it's no surprise that someone will want to take up that banner. The cavalry is another example, the word means "horse" and yet now it's ascribed to other military and non-military forces who are not on horseback.

Luke and his ilk can live happily ever after, but once they are gone, there are other things to happen. The Force as described in ESB seems destined to invite more Dark Side users at some point in the future, with or without Sith intervention.

I think you guys are being hard-headed, stamping your feet over issues that are not as big a deal simply because it's not the way YOU PERSONALLY assumed it to be. If you can't think it through to a reasonable conclusion, then it seems like you are merely limiting your imagination in this matter because of personal bias. Are the new Sith tattoos silly? A little. Were Maul's tattoos silly? Just as much, they didn't fit with the rest of the movies, Maul wasn't even a particularly good Sith, but it worked out.

El Chuxter

03-28-2010, 04:56 PM

But the prophecy only dealt with the Sith, not the dark side. And I'd like to assume Yoda was correct. After he was completely turned to a half-witted pile of mush in the prequels, let's leave the guy with some dignity.

The "happy ending" to which I referred only to the Jedi and Sith. Everything else is fair game.

El Chuxter

03-28-2010, 07:51 PM

Back to the lecture at hand, perfection is perfected so I'm-a let 'em understand....

I finally opened one of these today. Oddly, the tape on the right side had been cut and the package re-taped, but nothing was missing. I was concerned about an (albeit pointless) helmet swap, since the paint on the bald dude's helmet is so much better than the paint on the other four helmets, but the other set is the same and hasn't been opened.

I only pulled out the Ladytrooper and the guy with the Guy Gardner haircut (who I assume got the HEAT Viper cannon, based on where it is in the package). These figures, while not nearly as bad as the Imperial Pilots Evolutions set, are pretty rank. The proportions on the Ladytrooper are especially bad; not only was the torso designed by someone who's never seen a real woman's chest (having her boobies forced into the position of the armor would presumably cause serious pain), but the body parts simply don't add up to a whole. I'm just glad the headsculpt is nice and it looks like the neck peg is the same size as GIJoe figures; it will be easier to mix up the appearance of female Vipers now.

The truly great thing about the set, though, is the re-use of the standard Cobra knife. Now that one Cobra Officer who was missing his knife can be properly armed and ready to take on all Joes!
JT, I think you might

Mr. JabbaJohnL

03-28-2010, 09:09 PM

What made you think that Darth Maul's tattoos were unique? The design was come up with randomly in the process by Ian McCaig messing around, but in canon the ancient Sith were already using tattoos for rank in the Tales of the Jedi comics from '97. They are "sith tattoos", it's not like Darth Maul drew them in his spare time and when he got some money he drove down to the Coruscant tattoo parlor and had them ink up his design. It is not so surprising that when there are more Sith, there might be more "sith tattoos" seen as well. I don't hear you complaining that there are too many Jedi running around in the same costume, or that all the Sith use the same-color lightsaber.
I'm not too familiar with Tales of the Jedi, having just bought the Exar Kun/Ulic Qel-Droma comic pack today - do you mean those little tiny tattoos they have on their foreheads? If there's something else, then I haven't seen it (feel free to link it up). If you're referring to that, then that's way different from having every Sith look exactly like Darth Maul. One or two small, barely noticeable tattoos is a far cry from having your entire body inked up in red and black.

You don't hear me complaining because I'm going off what was established in the films. From what I've seen, most Jedi wear similar robes, with variations on the main theme. They all have blue or green sabers, with Mace's being purple. All the Sith have red lightsabers. I can accept these since they work on a visual level to both separate and connect these characters for the viewers, to visually call them out as being good or bad right away. (Not to mention that they've been around for quite a while, so they're more a part of the lore than the Legacy Sith.) But it's far more subtle than the Legacy Sith. I accept that all Sith have red lightsabers. I don't accept that they all have to look like Darth Maul.

How many non turned-Jedi have we seen in the movies? 2, making tattoos common to half the known Sith. Palps was a cold warrior, his actions were about subterfuge so it'd be foolish to wear tats, he created Maul to be his scary Sith pitbull which meant Maul didn't need to be inconspicuous. In the time of Legacy, a different Sith order, one without the need to hide or obey the rule of 2, has come to be so they are not saddled with the rule of 2 or the need for subterfuge. If Maul were the only one who ever looked like that, past, present, or future, it would make his tattoos incongruous with the Sith, it would be an anomaly - and in the movie universe, that's exactly what it is, because it's an affectation that serves no purpose except the aesthetics of 1 guy. But if everything is to have a meaning, even the shape of the clasp on Palpatine's robes, then those tattoos had to have some origin, there had to be some logic behind them, and thus they can be repeated.
So you also want to see a bunch of guys running around in Vader armor? No, because it dilutes it and takes away from Vader's uniqueness. It would be one thing if all these Sith were wearing Palpatine's clasp (whatever its meaning is) or black robes, since we've seen Sith wearing black before and accept it as part of who they are. But you've got to admit that, at least to a certain extent, having a half-naked Twi'lek woman tatted up like Darth Maul just SCREAMS fan wank.

Again, to the point of uniqueness - having two Sith makes them interesting, as if two powerful Sith are equal to thousands of Jedi. The Sith are so powerful and strong in the Force that they need only two people to control it. To me, having dozens of Sith is not nearly as interesting; they're not as special if they're all over the place. Yeah, sure, it's a different order, but it's a less interesting one. In my book, at least.

And if the Sith tattoos were supposed to be a common Sith thing, then why doesn't Vader have them? If not right away in ROTS, then definitely by ROTJ, after his skin is somewhat healed - but no, still tattooless.

That stems from your assumption about what the prophecy meant. If prequel-era EU Yoda's interpretation is correct, then there can be no use of the Dark Side ever again, but that is patently ludicrous and thoughtless and childish (and yes I know that stems directly from Lucas, but a lot of bad ideas that were cast aside have been as well), and it violates the very ideas Lucas sets forward in ANH and more specifically in ESB. Nowhere does the prophecy of the chosen one say the word "Sith", it just says "…And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as THE SON OF THE SUNS". The pre-movie Jedi interpretation of the prophecy was cast aside since the Jedi assumed they had ALREADY DEFEATED THE SITH MILLENNIA AGO! What does that tell you? That it's really easy to screw up prophecy, and that the Sith are more resilient. The term "Sith" is just a name these order of Dark Jedi ascribe to themselves, it's not that they're born of a race or something, it's a choice.
That's a prophecy from an early draft of ANH - not even the novelization, as some have said - and may or may not have anything to do with the prophecy as described in the prequels. In TPM and AOTC, it's described that a Chosen One will bring balance to the Force. In ROTS, while Mace, Yoda, and Obi-Wan are sitting on the gunship, Obi-Wan asks if Anakin is the Chosen One, to destroy the Sith and bring the Force back into balance, which Yoda says could have been misread; after the duel, Obi-Wan says "It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them." So, at least in ROTS, when the prophecy is brought up, it directly refers to the Sith being destroyed.

Also, I always assumed that the Sith had survived those thousand years, hiding from view of the Jedi and passing the knowledge through several generations of master-apprentice relationships. I'm not exactly sure how it plays out in George's mind or in the EU, but that's how it seemed to me. However, Vader and Sidious are dead as doornails at the end of ROTJ, and neither of them revive it later (discounting Palpatine's clones :rolleyes: ), so it's a completely different scenario here.

I think you guys are being hard-headed, stamping your feet over issues that are not as big a deal simply because it's not the way YOU PERSONALLY assumed it to be. If you can't think it through to a reasonable conclusion, then it seems like you are merely limiting your imagination in this matter because of personal bias. Are the new Sith tattoos silly? A little. Were Maul's tattoos silly? Just as much, they didn't fit with the rest of the movies, Maul wasn't even a particularly good Sith, but it worked out.
Well, in my mind, it IS a big deal. The last half hour or so of ROTJ involves Luke turning Vader back to the light side, bringing out the side of him that had been dead for so long. When Vader owns up, saves Luke, and kills Palpatine, Anakin comes back in a powerful moment of redemption and self-sacrifice. With the added weight of the prequels, we know that Anakin was set up for this moment all along; finally, at long last, he has fulfilled his destiny, revealing that he was indeed the Chosen One. Anakin learns from the mistakes he's made in the past - he's been in similar situations with Mace and Padmé, making the wrong decision, but damned if he's going to let it happen again. The Force is now back in balance, the reign of the Sith is over, and Luke is free to pass on what he has learned and let the light side flourish.

But I guess none of that matters if someone comes up with (what they think are) cool-looking comic book characters. Sigh.

JediTricks

03-29-2010, 05:24 PM

But the prophecy only dealt with the Sith, not the dark side. And I'd like to assume Yoda was correct. After he was completely turned to a half-witted pile of mush in the prequels, let's leave the guy with some dignity.

The "happy ending" to which I referred only to the Jedi and Sith. Everything else is fair game.Eh, not buying it. There's not that much source material to go on. The Sith are just an order of Dark Side worshipers, they are the successful one during the movies, but clearly not the only Dark Siders. Is it so important that the chosen one wipe out just 1 sect? Perhaps, they were hoarding power and influence over the galaxy's people from a single seat at the top. But I don't buy it, that would only leave a power vacuum in the Dark Side which eventually would be filled. Yes, Lucas says that's it, Anakin defeats ALL evil once and for all time with his act, but what a load of poodoo, that is beyond childishness.

If you want to leave Yoda with dignity after the prequels, and I fully understand that sentiment, then the lessons in ESB and ROTJ are the very ones which say the Dark Side is likely to rear its ugly head again. It can perhaps be contained, but unless all Jedi are gone, it will never fully disappear. But ROTJ's ending suggests Yoda is wrong anyway, since the Dark Side does not consume Luke by the end of the story. Yoder ain't infallible.

I only pulled out the Ladytrooper and the guy with the Guy Gardner haircut (who I assume got the HEAT Viper cannon, based on where it is in the package).Actually, I believe the Ladytrooper is the heavy weapons expert so it should be hers, but her dainty hands wouldn't be able to hold it - the weapon in the comic she has isn't anywhere near as gigantic.

JT, I think you might Um... huh?

I'm not too familiar with Tales of the Jedi, having just bought the Exar Kun/Ulic Qel-Droma comic pack today - do you mean those little tiny tattoos they have on their foreheads? If there's something else, then I haven't seen it (feel free to link it up). If you're referring to that, then that's way different from having every Sith look exactly like Darth Maul. One or two small, barely noticeable tattoos is a far cry from having your entire body inked up in red and black.No, those are the tats I'm talking about. But keep in mind, that's millennia beforehand, the kernel of the concept in the ranks of the Sith that can be expanded upon outward.

I have to leave, I will try to remember to address the rest here.

El Chuxter

03-29-2010, 05:35 PM

Hmmm... not sure where I was going with that last sentence.

JediTricks

03-29-2010, 05:38 PM

Hmmm... not sure where I was going with that last sentence.
http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/