[QUOTE=steer]Fine, I am an ogre, but I do not forcefeed my ideas on unwilling parties, like your new friend Fragnox. Any noteriety I have earned has been in DEFENSE of my ideas, under attack, not in the OFFENSIVE promotion of them....just read his original post in this topic - that is a guy you wnat to defend??? Maybe I will start making topics like that in 360/PS3 topics, do you think I do not for lack of creativity or inspiration - no, I do not because they are counterproductive and rude....but the rules of engagment are always different with the WIi and Nintendo - double standards for posters here as well....[/QUOTE]

So now you resort to personal attacks -- ooh boy, how fun.

How did I force-feed my ideas on unwilling parties? What the hell are you even talking about? Not to mention you haven't even addressed my last post directed towards you. You likely consider me a troll/flamer, but at least I'm not personally attacking YOU and whining about how mean you are. If you don't like that I'm expressing other opinions towards you, and you consider that "force-feeding" them to you, then why are you on a forum? Forums are supposed to be about expressing opinions and ideas, not keeping them inside so your poor little feelings won't be hurt.

[QUOTE]JLH once wanted to exile me for sticking up for games, but had no problem with MIG (who I bear no animosity) for trashing games....if you are the wrong political party here, you risk isolation and enstrangment, but that is not the biggest risk in the world is it? I would rather be myself than to be liked.[/QUOTE]

You're definitely right. I have about four people thinking I'm nuts so far (in my first what, three days on the forum?) and ONE PERSON who has stuck up for the same side as I have. Hell, I've even been declared a troll because I don't like Super Mario Galaxy. But you're being exiled? The purpose of this forum is NOT to raise your self-esteem. I'm not going to agree with you just because your feelings will get hurt if I don't. If you want to rant about your opinions and NOT get replies back...rant to a wall or something. Or write a diary. Don't go on a forum.

-----------------

Feilong, when did I say the Wii had to be either "worthwhile" or "crap"? I consider it to be crap personally, but as objectively as I could, I'd probably put it more in the "meh" department. It's okay, it has some decent titles, and most people can get a fair amount of enjoyment out of it. And if you're not into game collecting and don't have a passion for playing games on the original console (I do, but I don't hold that as a standard for everyone), you've got the entire VC -- which is, while incomplete, full of a lot of classics. Some of my favorite games ever are on there, so it's hard for me to necessarily complain about the VC.And 99% of people will find at least one A+ title, as ActRaiser said -- Super Mario Galaxy. I found it to be mediocre but clearly I'm in the minute minority on that one.

Also, I don't think shovelware is ever cheaper new, when it's just been released. It generally drops in price relatively quickly, but it is $50 from the beginning from what I've seen. Also, wasting $30 on a crappy game is no better than wasting $50 on it. Either way, you're wasting money, you're just wasting somewhat less. I think the only time it's really no big deal if you waste money on a bad game is if it's $10 or less.

As a point of fact, shovelware does retail for less, brand new. This can be looked up. The only confusion here is if you count major releases that aren't any good as shovelware. They aren't the same thing.

[QUOTE=feilong80]As a point of fact, shovelware does retail for less, brand new. This can be looked up. The only confusion here is if you count major releases that aren't any good as shovelware. They aren't the same thing.

And Paul: I sense you are correct.

-Rob[/QUOTE]

I think you both are wrong. If you are making reference to me I have avoided these topics for a long time. By the way, I see nothing wrong with Sony or Microsoft trying to get some casual support-heck if Nintendo is making millions off of a shovelware machine why can't people do it who make legitimate video game systems?

Haha, the PS3 and Xbox 360 are dinosaur consoles. The new generation is the Wii and both the successors to the PS3 and Xbox 360 will be more like the Wii than they were to the PS3 and Xbox 360.

You also have to laugh at someone throwing around metacritic 'percentages'. These fools try to compare the Wii to the Xbox 360, PS3 or even the PS2. But the Wii should be compared to the NES and Atari 2600.

How much shovelware did the NES have? Oh baby, it had tons.

And what about the Atari 2600? It was the king of shovelware which collapsed the industry. But that didn't stop the Atari 2600 from being the most loved and one of the longest selling consoles ever.

In 1986, I looked at NES, which was advertised as a 'family machine', and thought it was stupid. I looked at Super Mario Brothers and said, "This has nothing over the Commodore 64!" I could think that because the NES attracted mostly children and families.

Those children became the future. Ever since the NES, every game and console was designed under the NES's influence. SNES, Genesis, N64, PS, PS2, Xbox, etc. etc.

Now, the console world has been reset. Whole new generations are growing up on motion control, and they think the Wii is 'normal gaming'.

You old farts crying over the Wii need to realize that your time is over. The scepter of gaming has been passed to a new generation. Just as the Atari Generation, after two decades, stepped aside for the the NES Generation to take its place, after the two decades of the NES it is time for you to step aside and let the Wii Generation rise.

Sometimes it is useful to clarify my arguments. This is an attempt to do so.

The truth is that there isn't a "bad" console this generation, like we've clearly had in years past. The 3DO, Jaguar, Cd-i, etc. were interesting and had some decent games but had deep, obvious flaws.

My problem is when a certain set of narrow minded gamers decide that Wii is, to quote Mig, a shovelware machine. There is no convincing the Mig's and Fragnox's of the world, but I argue only for the benefit of the other people reading. And because it's fun.

Yes, when you have a new concept, many will falter in its execution. And yes with an immensely popular device of any kind, you will have assorted crappy "me-too" cash-in products. Just look at things like iPods, and the immense array of products, most being pretty dumb.

But none of these things define the core experience of said product, the Wii included. I will always disagree with those who denigrate the Wii as crap not because I think the Wii is the best, but because I don't think any of the current consoles are crap. They are all legitimate game consoles.

Every time I start to get a little bored with Wii (like I do any platform at times), I find something that surprises me. Currently I am playing The Force Unleashed on Wii. I got this as a Christmas gift and I had low expectations. Boy, was I wrong. The game is all kinds of fun. Way more fun that most of the high powered games I've been playing on PS3, 360, and PC in the past month or so. A lot of that is good design, probably the same in all the versions. Yet, it cannot be denied that throwing around guys with the dark side of the force is much more fun when you actually gesture to do it- as is force pushing, choking, etc.

And to address another point from these threads: Yes, Fragnox, I called you out on the basis of your Mario Galaxy comments because it does expose you as merely wanting to get people mad instead of having a reasonable discussion. I'm sorry, this probably isn't popular to say and people will no doubt come in here and accuse me of being unreasonable. But I don't care. Mario Galaxy is a very, very good game. This can be proven objectively: it has high production values, gameplay variety, visual appeal, and a great soundtrack. It being "easy" also proves that you have not played this game to its full potential. Yep, it is easy to "beat" the game, but hard to get all 120 stars. The worst you can say is that it isn't *your* cup of tea, and as far as that goes, that is fair. But if we have any yardsticks at all beyond just guessing, you cannot call it mediocre.

I also find it revealing that we are now accusing Nintendo of being "lazy." Make no mistake, this is bullcrap. Yes, not every game that comes out of the Nintendo stable is going to be good. No publisher is completely perfect. But when you look at their releases as a whole, any reasonable person finds that it is robust, high quality, and mostly very fun. Here we find that Fragnox cherry picks a couple of titles to make his point, while stuffing the other games into this "easy" compartment so we don't have to deal with them. Good, because if we did, the argument falls apart. The problem with Wii is mainly with the third parties, again because they failed to anticipate its success.

I do not think Fragnox and Mig are the same people. What I do think, though, is that people who have decided to hate Wii use the exact same arguments on every message board on the internet, and tend to say the exact same things. There are some people who do that for Wii as well, and that is just as wrong (please note I am not calling anyone out here on that count). But the Wii haters are usually more strident, at least they are to me. Everyone's mileage may vary.

[QUOTE=feilong80]The truth is that there isn't a "bad" console this generation, like we've clearly had in years past. The 3DO, Jaguar, Cd-i, etc. were interesting and had some decent games but had deep, obvious flaws.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I would definitely agree with you.

[QUOTE]My problem is when a certain set of narrow minded gamers decide that Wii is, to quote Mig, a shovelware machine. There is no convincing the Mig's and Fragnox's of the world, but I argue only for the benefit of the other people reading. And because it's fun.[/QUOTE]

You don't have to say it like we're close-minded and completely unable to accept anything other than what we're currently thinking.

Also, I do think the Wii has a lot of shovelware, a lot of mediocre games, a decent amount of good games and a handful of great games, which still aren't as great as the other great games.

[QUOTE]Yes, when you have a new concept, many will falter in its execution. And yes with an immensely popular device of any kind, you will have assorted crappy "me-too" cash-in products. Just look at things like iPods, and the immense array of products, most being pretty dumb.

But none of these things define the core experience of said product, the Wii included. I will always disagree with those who denigrate the Wii as crap not because I think the Wii is the best, but because I don't think any of the current consoles are crap. They are all legitimate game consoles.[/QUOTE]

Again, I agree. I may dislike the Wii but I wouldn't call it a bad console, per se.

[QUOTE]Every time I start to get a little bored with Wii (like I do any platform at times), I find something that surprises me. Currently I am playing The Force Unleashed on Wii. I got this as a Christmas gift and I had low expectations. Boy, was I wrong. The game is all kinds of fun. Way more fun that most of the high powered games I've been playing on PS3, 360, and PC in the past month or so. A lot of that is good design, probably the same in all the versions. Yet, it cannot be denied that throwing around guys with the dark side of the force is much more fun when you actually gesture to do it- as is force pushing, choking, etc. [/QUOTE]

Possibly, but I found just as much fun playing the game on the 360 and pressing buttons to do so -- not to mention that it actually has a physics engine on the 360. The Wii is simply not powerful enough to support one.

[QUOTE]And to address another point from these threads: Yes, Fragnox, I called you out on the basis of your Mario Galaxy comments because it does expose you as merely wanting to get people mad instead of having a reasonable discussion. I'm sorry, this probably isn't popular to say and people will no doubt come in here and accuse me of being unreasonable. But I don't care. Mario Galaxy is a very, very good game. This can be proven objectively: it has high production values, gameplay variety, visual appeal, and a great soundtrack. It being "easy" also proves that you have not played this game to its full potential. Yep, it is easy to "beat" the game, but hard to get all 120 stars. The worst you can say is that it isn't *your* cup of tea, and as far as that goes, that is fair. But if we have any yardsticks at all beyond just guessing, you cannot call it mediocre.[/QUOTE]

Okay, I can honestly say I'm not coming in to stir things up or be a troll. But believe what you want to believe.

Also, you cannot say it is objectively a good game. That is contradictory. Any time you use the word "good" it's objective.

As for not playing the game to its full potential, I got a fair amount of stars. But even so, you cannot chastige me for not collecting all 120 stars if I didn't enjoy the game. Why complete the game if I didn't enjoy the first three quarters, except to suit your whims and be able to say I didn't enjoy the game without being countered with "You didn't play the game right"?

And when I call it mediocre, it means that I did not enjoy it. Any sort of statement about a game's quality, other than obvious fact, is opinion. Despite what you think. I'm not honestly saying it's factually mediocre.

[QUOTE]I also find it revealing that we are now accusing Nintendo of being "lazy." Make no mistake, this is bullcrap. Yes, not every game that comes out of the Nintendo stable is going to be good. No publisher is completely perfect. But when you look at their releases as a whole, any reasonable person finds that it is robust, high quality, and mostly very fun. Here we find that Fragnox cherry picks a couple of titles to make his point, while stuffing the other games into this "easy" compartment so we don't have to deal with them. Good, because if we did, the argument falls apart. The problem with Wii is mainly with the third parties, again because they failed to anticipate its success.[/QUOTE]

Okay, does dumping the entire soundtrack not seem lazy to you? The most moronic part is that Animal Crossing is the PERFECT TITLE for them. It's a casual game at heart but the hardcore gamers still enjoy it. And they still got lazy with it. I'm not saying Nintendo's lazy on everything, but they sure have on some points.

And there you go again, acting as if your opinion is fact. You cannot say that I am unreasonable if I do not enjoy something. That is just elitist, stupid, and close-minded. Oh, and don't forget fanboyish.

What about third parties...? It's not their fault for not anticipating the Wii's success. You're honestly saying that the only flaw of the Wii is the third parties didn't anticipate its success? I thought the problem was that they noticed the success and followed up with a ton of shovelware?

[QUOTE]I do not think Fragnox and Mig are the same people. What I do think, though, is that people who have decided to hate Wii use the exact same arguments on every message board on the internet, and tend to say the exact same things. There are some people who do that for Wii as well, and that is just as wrong (please note I am not calling anyone out here on that count). But the Wii haters are usually more strident, at least they are to me. Everyone's mileage may vary.[/QUOTE]

"Decided" to hate the Wii? Yes, you're right. It was a conscious decision and not just opinion. I suppose you "decided" to like the Wii.

As for Wii haters being more strident, I'm pretty sure anyone of the opposing opinion is going to seem more strident to you. I think people like you and steer seem more strident than those like Banjo or Mig to me.

Yes, there are things which one can measure objectively in a game. Games are certainly great than the sum of their parts, that is the elusive fun part they all strive for.

But, when I say it is a very good game, I can do that and be objective because I measuring that against concrete things that they game has going for it. If this isn't true, than making games is completely and utterly guesswork every single time. In other words, I can use subjective adjectives and still be talking about objective factors. These factors aren't enough to make something great, but they can definitely make a game at least decent. Since I know Mario Galaxy fulfills a number of fairly concrete things one expects to find in a higher quality game, I can say with confidence that it is wrong to say it is mediocre.

What has happened in this forum over the course of the past 6 months or so is this: Steer has gotten everyone out of sorts, to the point that the opposite of what he wants has been accomplished: people are much more likely to dump on Wii here than ever before, which is mostly, in my opinion, out of spite for him. I entered the fray only because then what happens, as in this case, is that then the console gets ripped to shreds unfairly in everyone's rush to debunk Steer. I'm not defending Steer, we've had arguments and I can tell he thinks I am part of the "club" in this forum.

You are still entirely unconvincing on the point of Nintendo being "lazy" with their own titles. You again only bring up a couple of games out of the many they have released. Sure, it sounds like they've been lazy with Animal Crossing. But that does not equal the whole library. The reality is that they have managed to release iterations in about every major franchise, in addition to the original stuff, in just about two years. Compared to the Gamecube, that is almost miraculous.