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Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

If he was league average everyone would love him. The problem is, Livingston does not project to be league average. If he did, he wouldn't have been available on waivers.

Very poor reasoning and assumption on your part. Because he's available on waivers, that's why you think he's not projected to be leage average? How about using some first-hand knowledge of his talent? How about looking at some of the other boob-head mistakes the M's G.M. makes? How about looking at other guys who have been put on waivers who were average and above-average Major Leaguers (this happens every year)? How about looking at his age and what he's done at his other levels he's pitched? How about looking at his age and what another organization might be able to do with his talent? How about looking at him having an opportunity with a new organization?

He's on waivers, thus he must be below average is not valid reasoning.

Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

Bobby Livingston's minor league numbers are the most amazing I've ever seen from someone who was put on waivers. We already went over this the day he was released, but Bavasi screwed up by picking up player(s), mainly two, that he either had to let go or put on the 40-man roster. As a result of not trying to make himself look stupid for not noticing that he'd have to release someone better than the player(s) he picked up, he tried to sneak Livingston through waivers. That didn't fly one bit, as I'm sure most G.M.'s were well aware of this guy. Look at these numbers, they're simply awesome. High innings pitched, low WHIP's, excellent K/BB ratio, low ERA's:

Forgot to mention, low-HR totals/ratios. He simply has better minor league numbers than any pitcher that's gone through the REDS organization in the last 15 years!!!!!!!

Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

I'm very interested in seeing what the REDS do with him this Spring and during this next season. Last Spring he pitched two shutout innings against the CUBS, but was limited to only two other innings where he gave up two runs. A stiff neck limited him last Spring to 4 IP. He was sent to AAA Tacoma, and never did well there. He'll be only 24 all year long, and there's no rush to have him reach the Majors. He's a starter that has the ability to pitch 200 Innings every year, who's never been hurt, other than that neck stinger last spring, and he doesn't throw in the manner that has a lot of injury risk.

Yes, he's like Jamie Moyer. He just goes out there every fifth day, gives up some solo homeruns, doesn't walk batters, and just wins.

He could be a 12-win pitcher every year for the REDS from 2008-2012. 12 wins isn't bad. Since joining the Mets five years ago, Tom Glavine has averaged a 12-12 season.

And like it's been said, he's cheap.

Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

Originally Posted by Eric_Davis

Very poor reasoning and assumption on your part. Because he's available on waivers, that's why you think he's not projected to be leage average? How about using some first-hand knowledge of his talent? How about looking at some of the other boob-head mistakes the M's G.M. makes? How about looking at other guys who have been put on waivers who were average and above-average Major Leaguers (this happens every year)? How about looking at his age and what he's done at his other levels he's pitched? How about looking at his age and what another organization might be able to do with his talent? How about looking at him having an opportunity with a new organization?

He's on waivers, thus he must be below average is not valid reasoning.

That's hardly what I said ED.

Based on everything available, there is no indication that Livingston projects to be a major league average starter. If there is some kind of indication, I would love to see it, since i sure haven't come accross anything yet. He's a soft tosser with very poor K numbers, decent control, and he isn't great at keeping the ball in the park. As of now, he's league average in AAA. What has everyone seen after 1 spring training game that makes you think that he has taken the leap of average minor leaguer to successful major leaguer?

The fact that he was put on waivers, and fell to the Reds indicates that a number of very bad teams (worse teams than the Reds) passsed on him. many of the bad teams have very bad pitchers, yet they felt no need to take a chance on Livingston. If anybody thought he projected to be a league average starter, at the major league minimum as of this year, teams would have been trading the farm for the guy. yet he slipped all the way to an average ball club. That's a pretty solid indication right there. Any kind of cheap pitching that may be anywhere close to half decent is a very valuable commodity, expecially in modern day baseball. the point is, few teams were willing to ive him any kind of chance.

Bill Bavasi has obviously made some incredible blunders during his tenure. However, if Livingston was really a huge mistake, how come pitching starved teams didn't even bother giving him a chance? You would think that those kinds of teams would be looking under every rock for any kind of pitching. Why wouldn't they take a chance on a league average starting pitcher making the minimum? Maybe it's because Livingston does not fit that profile.

Now Livinston has had some better success in the lower minors, so there is some hope that he can regain some his K numbers and improve the ability to keep the ball in the park. If he can do thsoe things, Livingston has a shot to make the majors and be soemwhat successful. If he is anything like he was last season, he's going to be a huge disaster.

Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

I think you are forgetting the Devil Rays got him then traded him to Philly.
Wayne say the error and claimed him for the Reds.

Thats how we got Bobby. So atleast one other team did want him, Philly. Who by the way, HAS Jamie Moyer. Think letting that rub off on a younger version was their idea?

No wait, can't be...because Bobby sucks already.

Gillick collects Mariner's slop just like Bowden collects Cincy slop.... By the way, Bobby does suck. Consider this....the M's knew they were going into the off season looking to fill THREE rotation spots and they still dumped Livingston.

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

Originally Posted by Eric_Davis

Very poor reasoning and assumption on your part. Because he's available on waivers, that's why you think he's not projected to be leage average? How about using some first-hand knowledge of his talent?

While projection systems aren't destiny, there isn't one that likes Livinston in '07. Then consider he's a soft-tosser with pedestrian stuff who struggled at AAA ball the last two seasons and there is reason to doubt he'll even be close to league average.

Originally Posted by Eric_Davis

How about looking at some of the other boob-head mistakes the M's G.M. makes?

Which ones exactly would be telling concerning Livingston?

Originally Posted by Eric_Davis

How about looking at other guys who have been put on waivers who were average and above-average Major Leaguers (this happens every year)? How about looking at his age and what he's done at his other levels he's pitched? How about looking at his age and what another organization might be able to do with his talent? How about looking at him having an opportunity with a new organization?

Maybe I should repeat this: He's a soft-tosser with pedestrian stuff who struggled at AAA ball the last two seasons....i'm trying to find the raw talent you're referring to....

Originally Posted by Eric_Davis

He's on waivers, thus he must be below average is not valid reasoning.

I guess my point is that he had more of an argument than what you reduced his opinion to....

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

Originally Posted by Eric_Davis

Bobby Livingston's minor league numbers are the most amazing I've ever seen from someone who was put on waivers. We already went over this the day he was released, but Bavasi screwed up by picking up player(s), mainly two, that he either had to let go or put on the 40-man roster. As a result of not trying to make himself look stupid for not noticing that he'd have to release someone better than the player(s) he picked up, he tried to sneak Livingston through waivers. That didn't fly one bit, as I'm sure most G.M.'s were well aware of this guy. Look at these numbers, they're simply awesome. High innings pitched, low WHIP's, excellent K/BB ratio, low ERA's:

Forgot to mention, low-HR totals/ratios. He simply has better minor league numbers than any pitcher that's gone through the REDS organization in the last 15 years!!!!!!!

Alright now I like hyperbole but all things in moderation.

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

Originally Posted by Eric_Davis

I'm very interested in seeing what the REDS do with him this Spring and during this next season. Last Spring he pitched two shutout innings against the CUBS, but was limited to only two other innings where he gave up two runs. A stiff neck limited him last Spring to 4 IP. He was sent to AAA Tacoma, and never did well there. He'll be only 24 all year long, and there's no rush to have him reach the Majors. He's a starter that has the ability to pitch 200 Innings every year, who's never been hurt, other than that neck stinger last spring, and he doesn't throw in the manner that has a lot of injury risk.

Yes, he's like Jamie Moyer. He just goes out there every fifth day, gives up some solo homeruns, doesn't walk batters, and just wins.

He could be a 12-win pitcher every year for the REDS from 2008-2012. 12 wins isn't bad. Since joining the Mets five years ago, Tom Glavine has averaged a 12-12 season.

And like it's been said, he's cheap.

Now youre just making stuff up. He's never pitched 200 innings in his life. Its funny that everyone thinks all it takes to be Jaimie Moyer is to be lefty and throw under 90 mph. Livingston's peripherals have been declining. Scouts hate him and Seattle had a bird's eye view. Pencil him into your rotation if you want but I'm more of a realist.

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

Livingston is a finesse southpaw prospect, but Iíll spare you the Jamie Moyer comparisons that seem to accompany every left-handed pitching prospect who canít throw a 92mph fastball. Livingston has above-average control but his walk rate crept upwards as he pitched around more advanced hitters in the upper minors. As long as he doesnít give up any more free passes than he did in 2005, he can keep the Mariners in the game without overpowering anyone as soon as this year. He has pitched more than 160 innings in each of the past three years, so he can be an innings-eater. In his prime, Livingston should be able to give up a three or four runs every five days in the back of Seattleís rotation

That would look really nice at the end of the Reds rotation..

Three or four runs..keeps us in games.

"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled."
-Hunter S. Thompson

Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

Originally Posted by Dracodave

This same team let..

Rafeal Soriano go for Horactio Ramirez (What the ??)

The Ms are convinced he has chronic arm problems and will never be a starter. They have a ton of young arms for the bullpen waiting in line and didn't like Soriano's lack of velocity in winter ball. So they traded a guy they consider to be a big injury risk who is filling a role they have a surplus for in order to fill a huge need. The criticism with this isn't that they traded Soriano, it's that they should've gotten more. I dunno. People aren't really trading good starters are they? If they were, Dunn wouldn't still be a Red.

Originally Posted by Dracodave

Chris Snelling and a young pitcher go for Jose Vidro (Okay, enough already)

As an Ms fan, this broke my heart. That being said, Snelling is liable to blow out his knee for the billionth time just getting out of bed. This wasn't a smart move (mostly because of payroll issues) but it pales in comparison to things like Young's extension. In other words, other GMs have done much stupider things recently.

Originally Posted by Dracodave

Yorman Bazardo go for next to nothing to the Tigers. (again..didnt the M's NEED pitching??)

Absolutely brilliant move. Bazardo is garbage. guys who project to be league average middle relievers are as rare as air.

Originally Posted by Dracodave

Only thing Bavasi (spelling) has done right was let Meche walk..

I dunno.... Betancourt, Johjima, the extension for Ibanez, kicking Everett to the curb, trading Moyer when he did, the way Felix was handled, signing Beltre (yes, contrary to uninformed opinion, Beltre was a good signing), the Garcia trade, non-tendering Pineiro, trading Eddie.... It seems to me there have been alot of good moves made on his watch too.... By the way, the team has improved 15 games since his first year and this with the farm system being left in shambles by Gillick....

I'm a huge Ms fan and I'm not a Bavasi fan or apologist....but if you're going to dump on him, at least do it with context.

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

Pamela Anderson and Jessica Simpson fighting over who will bring me a fresh beer on a beach in Bermuda sounds nice too....

Here's the point....a guy with Livinston's skill set has such a small margin or error.....you can talk about his great numbers in low ball but he flamed out in Tacoma-after a significant time there (we're not talking 4 at bats in spring training). At this point there is no reason to be as optimistic about him as a few in this thread are being.... A finesse pitcher with declining peripherals is a LONG shot....

Last edited by jojo; 03-04-2007 at 07:04 PM.

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

No I was talking about the fact that he was putting up those numbers in double a. The was called to triple A, where he should have seasoned for atleast a season or two. He got called up and before his call up he was owning Triple A to the tune of a 2.12 era. When the M's sent him back after his lackluster RELIEF (not starting) apperance. Thats when he sucked in triple a.

Did he get rushed? Who knows but...

Yes he hit a brick wall in triple a, is that something he can overcome? Who knows..and before we do. Everyone has already sold the kid out on being crapola.

What if he comes into a full game for us and does what Elizardo did? 92 very strong innings before he wacked out his shoulder.

We do know that livingston has movement on his pitches and that he has control. So he's two steps better than Elizardo..

My point is we could do a whole lot worse..

We could have signed Marquis, wouldnt that have been special?

"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled."
-Hunter S. Thompson

Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

Originally Posted by dougdirt

I have to chime in on Livingston....the guy makes Joe Mays look like a fireballer. He tops out at about 86 MPH. I just cant see him being a very productive MLB pitcher when he cant even get to the high 80s with his fastball.

Jamie Moyer pitched topped out about the speeds and it looked like he wasn't going to make it either, even with a decent amount of time in the major. The key for Moyer was to consistently change speeds and a circle changeup. Any "decent" left-handed pitcher will get a chance even if they can't throw as fast as Billy Wagner.

Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

Originally Posted by harangatang

Jamie Moyer piched about the speeds and looked like he wasn't going to make it either. Even with a decent amount of time in the majors, but the key was to consistently change speeds and a circle changeup. Any "decent" left-handed pitcher will get a chance even if they can't throw as fast as Billy Wagner.

And Jaime Moyer is one of a handful of guys to be able to do that. For every 1 Jaime Moyer type that succeeded there were 30 who failed.

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