However I think I may have got my initial assessment wrong.I realised I was missing a part of the puzzle - something was bugging me about that video.Anthony can clearly be seen to measure out a quantity of the 55lb bag of flour and throws it under the work bench before going on to mix the final dough.I realise now what that might be used for. The quantity was not enough imo for making the bulk of the contents of the 'starter tub' on its own - however it could be added to what remained in the mixing bowl after the final dough was mixed - to increase the amount of 'residual dough' as well as increase the fermentation time (and cut down on how much dough needs to be reserved - ie more pizzas!)Here is my new suggested work schedule:

* Reserve some flour from a 55lb bag of Caputo.* Use the rest of the bag together with the 24 hour fermented levain, salt and water to make the final dough.* Take most of this dough and leave on a tray for a bulk ferment of a few hours* Divide and shape the 'trayed' dough into dough balls - ready for making pizzas in about 4-5 hours time.* Take the residual final dough and mix it with the previously reserved flour, additional water and salt - and put in a tub to ferment for 24 hours ready for the next day.

So in essence I was partly right, and so were others who have speculated on preferments etc.Anthony DOES use a preferment - but does not maintain a 'chef' or storage starter in the form of poolish.Rather, he uses old dough (pate fermentee...au levain!) together with additional flour, salt and water to make a 24 hour sponge (or intermediate levain if you like).

That's still speculation- but it fits all the details in the video and articles - and it's a pretty smart system imo! Here's hoping he finds a new location to continue the good work.

Toby

So I've watched this a few more times and have some questions: when he measures out the flour at the beginning, you can clearly see the tub of old dough/poolish/starter sitting in a clear tub on the measuring bench. He also has h20 measured out in two containers, one large and one small. After he measures the flour he throws it into the blue tub under the bench. He uses the bigger of the two waters for the mix along with the rest of the bag. One could speculate that the smaller container of water was thrown in the blue tub with the initial amount of flour. Is this his starter (natural)? Or one could speculate that it was thrown in the mix.

Why do you assume he leaves dough in the mixer? When he pulls the first amount of dough out of the mixer, he throws it on the bench. The next shot is with a much larger quantity of dough on the bench where he works it for a bit.

Assuming he uses a natural starter, are we to assume also that he has already measured the starter into the liquidized old dough (in the tub on the bench)?

It seems obvious that the initial flour and small amount of water go to feeding a starter. That's just my gut.

Infoodel

So I've watched this a few more times and have some questions: when he measures out the flour at the beginning, you can clearly see the tub of old dough/poolish/starter sitting in a clear tub on the measuring bench. He also has h20 measured out in two containers, one large and one small. After he measures the flour he throws it into the blue tub under the bench. He uses the bigger of the two waters for the mix along with the rest of the bag. One could speculate that the smaller container of water was thrown in the blue tub with the initial amount of flour. Is this his starter (natural)? Or one could speculate that it was thrown in the mix.

Why do you assume he leaves dough in the mixer? When he pulls the first amount of dough out of the mixer, he throws it on the bench. The next shot is with a much larger quantity of dough on the bench where he works it for a bit.

Assuming he uses a natural starter, are we to assume also that he has already measured the starter into the liquidized old dough (in the tub on the bench)?

It seems obvious that the initial flour and small amount of water go to feeding a starter. That's just my gut.

Mo, I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing. I see the dough pulled out of the mixer and then put somewhere off camera (presumably a tray).The video then cuts to the dough being taken off a tray and shaped into final dough balls.I don't think there are two different portions of dough in play - at least not from the video. The 'size discrepancy' may be a visual illusion due to perspective?

As for the flour + water - I noticed the smaller portion of water also. I still think this would still work if mixed with the residual dough + extra flour (from the blue tub?) to make up the 24 hour 'tub dough'. It's possible that the hydration of the contents of the tub is higher than the final dough.

To clarify - what I am suggesting is: 24 hour gloop is a combination of residual dough from the mixer + water + flour + possibly salt - which answers Essen's concerns about the appearance of the 'gloop' as starter preferment rather than old dough.

I'm not saying that is 100% definitely the solution - it just seems to fit what the video shows.I'm going to look at the numbers and see if I can work out a old dough + preferment + '24 hour dough ball' method based on the same video clues...but that seems like an unnecessarily complex method to me.

I'm wondering if, when Didier Rosa referred to 'prefermented dough, he was talking about preferments in general (biga for example).

Toby,

No, Rosada was referring to a prefermented dough in an old dough sense, not some other preferment. I used to have links to his discussion of the subject but I found today that they are now dead. I will see if I can find another source.

Peter

Logged

Infoodel

No, Rosada was referring to a prefermented dough in an old dough sense, not some other preferment. I used to have links to his discussion of the subject but I found today that they are now dead. I will see if I can find another source.

Peter

No probs. That may indeed be what he meant - esp. if the dough was being refrigerated before the first proof (or bulk ferment) is through. It may even be mentioned in Advanced Bread and Pastry or possibly one of the SFBI newsletters - but I don't have my copy to hand (it's across the pond in the states :-/ )Thanks anyway.Toby

Mo, I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing. I see the dough pulled out of the mixer and then put somewhere off camera (presumably a tray).

First he's dusting the bench. Then he pulls a hunk of dough out of the mixer and puts it on the floured bench. Then it cuts to him hand working a large amount of dough on the same bench, at which point he picks up the whole lot and scurries past the camera. Then they pick it back up with him unloading a portion of dough out of a box onto the marble where he commences to scaling. My point is, you never see the next day's old dough. Whether or not this is of any note, I have no clue. Like you, it is fun for me to try and decipher the method...

Anthony is using a wet dough, close to 64%. this video is great for any copycats out there because it shows everything but the starter to poolish step. that is not the starter you see, but the poolish. He is not taking any shortcuts with his process, but like Marco eludes to, I am not sure the extra preferment stage is helping that much. Could be more work than is needed from what I have learned with my experiments, especially since he is using a starter. again, though, you cant slag him for taking the easy road!

I just re watched the video a couple times, and i think Scott has it right here. He adds a poolish to make a new dough. The poolish is very wet, probably 100% hydration for the ease of the math and started by a VERY small percentage of his activated starter, and is therefore fine to go for 24-36 hours or whatever. Its not going to blow or anything, just create great flavors. Bake day, he comes in, adds a the poolish to new flour and appropriate amounts of water to make dough, leaves it to ferment for sometime3-6 hours?, mind you most of the flavor of this dough is already in there and the leavening is running strong after its new feeding. pull it out of the mixer, divide ball, let rest for 3-6 hours before baking. By using a poolish, he takes some of the temperature variables out of making a final dough, meaning it cannot overferment and blow like a completed dough can. Also, he can vary the size of the poolish to control the doughs fermentation time to adjust for ambient temps. If this is anywhere near right, I think it is a great method that allows for some flexibility.

Infoodel

I just re watched the video a couple times, and i think Scott has it right here. He adds a poolish to make a new dough. The poolish is very wet, probably 100% hydration for the ease of the math and started by a VERY small percentage of his activated starter, and is therefore fine to go for 24-36 hours or whatever. Its not going to blow or anything, just create great flavors. Bake day, he comes in, adds a the poolish to new flour and appropriate amounts of water to make dough, leaves it to ferment for sometime3-6 hours?, mind you most of the flavor of this dough is already in there and the leavening is running strong after its new feeding. pull it out of the mixer, divide ball, let rest for 3-6 hours before baking. By using a poolish, he takes some of the temperature variables out of making a final dough, meaning it cannot overferment and blow like a completed dough can. Also, he can vary the size of the poolish to control the doughs fermentation time to adjust for ambient temps. If this is anywhere near right, I think it is a great method that allows for some flexibility.

I suppose it's possible there is another storage starter being used here - but then why the reference to previous dough in the UPN literature as well as articles etc? Is that just window dressing - a 'token' amount added to the 'poolish' you mentioned?It's possible there is an off-camera starter used to mix a preferment (Not a poolish imo - it's a little stiffer than 100% - assuming it's all caputo flour that's being used in the preferment). A poolish is no 'safer' or less prone to temperature effects in my experience (and actually can be more temperamental at cooler temps and high hydrations).If, as I think is being implied, old dough is added to the preferment for the sake of flavour alone, then why at the preferment stage? It would make far more sense to add it during the mixing of the final dough to have full flavour benefit.When we see the final dough being pulled from the mixer, it seems there is a considerable amount left still in there...did Anthony just make more dough balls from this? These are all possibilities -I just think some are more likely than others while trying to keep off-camera speculation to a minimum.

Toby

edit: just to clarify again - the method I'm suggesting is just as 'safe' as using storage starter. It uses a portion of the *newly mixed* dough with added flour, water and salt to make up a 24 hour preferment to be added to the next batch of dough. There's no danger of overfermentation - and yes it could be mixed to a poolish type consistency. Perhaps the use of the adjective 'old' in 'old dough' is misleading in this respect.

Toby, you raise a couple good points. I was guessing at the hydration of the poolish or sponge, but you can see he is careful with his movements so as not to spill it. Then when he does it almost all of it pours right out, only a little remains. So either way we can suppose that its not old 65% hydration dough. All I meant about not being as sensitive to temps, is that when using a natural yeast in small amounts over a long period of time, it is much much more forgiving than using your average quick yeast poolish, and more forgiving than a overfermented finished dough. The quick stir he does before adding the preferment must be to incorporate salt into the flour. Also note that the flour he dumps onto the bin underneath must be for excess flour storage. That looks like dry storage to me. He weighed the bag of flour by subtracting a fixed amount from it, say 10 pounds. If there is 10 pounds of flour in his preferment, and say 10 pounds of water, then he knows he has to add 10 pounds less water to the mix then he would for making a direct dough out of a whole bag of flour. Also I think I was wrong, he bulk ferments in a pizza tray, he just cant fit it all into one, hence why there is some left to the bowl hes gotta put thee rest in another tray. Who knows, maybe I am all off on the whole thing, after watching it over and over, it just started to seem like it makes sense. The only weird thing about the old dough theory, is after being closed for a few days where's his old dough then, do activate your starter to make a dough so that you have an old dough, to make the new dough. Or was it in the fridge becoming more and more acidic the whole time? wouldn't that lead to an inconsistent product? -marc

edt: I didn't notice you edited. the old dough terminology might be causing confusion, or he could have changed methods over the years.

Peter, can you pass along the (non-working) link? There are half a dozen archives, that may have saved a copy of the old page.

.

pacoast,

Toby has found the non-working links. I couldn't find the articles either after searching the cafemeeting.com website. The article at the bakerconnection.com website is similar to the first Rosada article (part 1) but it is not identical. However, it does discuss the old dough/prefermented dough method. There is also a part 2.

You did the forum a great service by finding the Rosada articles. Rosada is more of a "purist" and a traditionalist in the way he treats and discusses preferments. That is a good starting point for bakers to understand preferments and, over time, to modify and improve them, whether for making bread dough or pizza dough. In the past, I have often discussed his work but was not able to link others to his articles. I think it is a good idea to print out the articles.

great article! I particularly loved the section discussing the effects of a poolish on protease activity, something I had not considered when conducting my previous experiments. I will be going back and doing more testing with a bit of salt in my room temperature preferments now.

Infoodel

Heh Mo. while the UPN room temp was probably more influenced by the firing of the oven than anything else, I am kind of amused at the thought of Anthony reserving less dough in the summer months for mixing the levain - so perhaps you were more likely to get a pizza at UPN before 'dough ran out' in July than say December. Probably totally untrue but amusing to contemplate nonetheless.

Scott re: poolishIn a situation where final dough fermentation time has to be relatively short (one of the main reasons preferments are used at all) a poolish is one option to help add extensibility to the dough. That's one of the reasons it sometimes gets used in making baguettes. Biga, by contrast, has less protease activity and can be used to s add dough strength - the sort of thing you might need in making high hydration dough (eg ciabatta)As Pete mentions - one can add salt to a preferment or starter - especially when using room temp. preferments.Didier Rosada mentions this in the Fall 2002, SFBI newsletter:"In addition to improving bread flavor, salt is useful in controlling the activity of preferments. When a preferment, such as poolish or sponge, is maturing too quickly due to warmer temperatures,adding .2 to .3% salt is just enough to slow down activity without interfering with aroma. Just remember that when the quantity of salt in the final dough is calculated, the amount of salt used in the preferment must be considered. When a stiff levain is becoming liquid or mushy in the center,this is a sign of undesirably intense enzyme activity (protease) between feedings. As little as .1% of salt incorporated during the feeding of the culture will be enough to noticeably slow down the protease of the flour and bring your sourdough culture to a normal consistencyŚwithout interfering with the microorganism activity of the sourdough. "

Cheers,Toby

edit: I'm not sure if it's relevant but I thought perhaps clarificationw was needed between the terms 'preferment' and 'levain'. While a levain is technically a preferment, its main purpose (as the name suggests) is to act as a leavening agent for the dough. On the other hand, a preferment is essentially a 'shortcut' - some percentage of the total flour that has been prefermented to impart various flavour and dough characteristics to the final dough without the need for a long fermentation in the final stages. It's essentially dividing up the total dough fermentation into two stages which can make life easier in a commercial bakery. Additional baker's yeast is usually introduced in the final mixing stage, proportional to the remaining flour to be added. When dealing with 100% sourdough breads/doughs the term levain and preferment can be used roughly interchangeably, since no additional leavening agent is being added in the final dough.Of course the subtleties and advantages imparted by preferments/levains reach far beyond convenience. They can be used in many different ways. One of the most extreme examples I've come across isthe 'Caramelized Hazelnut Squares' recipe in Advanced Bread and Pastry. As I recall, it used 4 different preferments/levains! I can't find the recipe right now but here's a link to the results:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10593/caramelized-hazelnut-squares

...In a situation where final dough fermentation time has to be relatively short (one of the main reasons preferments are used at all)...

...a preferment is essentially a 'shortcut' - some percentage of the total flour that has been prefermented to impart various flavour and dough characteristics to the final dough without the need for a long fermentation in the final stages. It's essentially dividing up the total dough fermentation into two stages which can make life easier in a commercial bakery....

I see how preferments can produce unique flavor/dough characteristics. I don't see how they yield major time or flexibility benefits versus direct fermentation. In fact using a preferment adds more steps and complexity to the doughmaking process. One must still know final batch size to know how much preferment to make. And the preferment itself needs to be started no less far in advance than a direct fermentation.