Leoriosan wrote:Pretty much all the attempts to make Kyle look cool and heroic came off as forced. It doesn't help that he literally feels tacked onto the story as a love interest for Jessica, moreso in the Sega CD version. I suppose we're supposed to think he's cool and funny, but I've always found him to be really obnoxious and out-of-place with the rest of the party. He doesn't have any adult figures he looks up to like the rest of the group.

Eh, he respects Mel in TSS, and it's mutual -- Mel placed him in charge of the Nanza barrier because he trusted Kyle. (Why Mel, governor of Meribia, would have an interest in access to the rest of the continent is unclear.) That was one of several personality and backstory changes I disliked in the remake. It kind of fit with their personalities -- Kyle's a jumped-up bandit, Mel's a jumped-up pirate. I'd be surprised if TSS Mel didn't already have an eye on Kyle as a potential match for Jessica, given that he doesn't want "wimpy accountant types" for her.

I'm sure I'll be corrected on this but I'm pretty sure that in the novel (right?) for LUNAR TSS Kyle was given a more prominent role and appears to the 'party' much earlier on. I want to say he was some sort of pirate, which would reinforce Mel's acceptance of him and vise versa as they would have came up from a similar background.

Kyle never had much of a development character-wise in the story in seemingly any of it's iterations which is really unfortunate. I think the developers learned their lesson with EB, but considering how many remakes TSS went through I never really understood that Kyle's story wasn't elaborated on when other characters with a seemingly much smaller role or engagement were either expanded upon or revamped. It also really relegates his character to a mere "muscle" type.

I should be able to tell you about his role in the novel, but I can't... I read some of it in translation and the style got to me a bit and I had to stop. (I think it's the original writing, not the translation, that got to me; I doubt the translator put in adjectives that weren't there.)

I know there's a bit more about Kyle in some sources. Pretty sure there's a bit of a flashback in Lunar Legend where Kyle and Jessica are at a dock as kids and Kyle says he'll hurt anyone who makes her cry, or words to that effect. And I know I read some backstory somewhere about kid-Jessica sneaking out and pretending to be a boy and becoming friends or rivals with Kyle. One night Kyle snuck into the mansion and was surprised to find his friend was there. I think he also peed on Mel on that trip... drat, where is all this? The novel? An interview?

^ I really hope there's a source for that. Like, peeing on Mel? Is that juvenile writing or a fairly plausible thing for a rascal kid to do?

AkagisWhiteComet wrote:Kyle never had much of a development character-wise in the story in seemingly any of it's iterations which is really unfortunate.

My own disclaimer: as an English teacher and scholar, I spend a lot of time paying attention to characters who are own fleshed out in bits and pieces and arguing how they're more nuanced than a lot of readers notice.

In short, I think Kyle gets a fair amount of development. A lot of this is going from memories of my previous playthrough of SSSC. I am usually struck by several things:

1. Kyle is described in a few ways before the party meets him. He may be mentioned in Meribia. Going all across the Nanza Fort searching for drunk-Kyle involves a lot of dialogue about how Kyle is as a leader and his relationship to Jessica. My general impression from that dialogue is that Kyle is a fair and respected leader who sometimes drinks too much and needs to figure out how to treat Jessica better.

2. Kyle's crossdressing scene makes him out to be inventive and charismatic, with a flair for spectacle. This is how he leads. Mentally I juxtapose that scene (imitating a woman who is treated poorly) with what women going through the Nanza Pass say about Kyle: he keeps them safe.

3. Once Kyle is recruited, the next town further develops Kyle as a kind of benevolent pirate or thief: he helps the party navigate Reza. Without him, going through the Thieves' Guild wouldn't have been easy. (Every other character is relatively more sheltered than Kyle.) It is clear he has a large network of friends and contacts and a certain amount of history, which he can use to figure out how to get the Dragon Wings back.

4. Plaster Mel has already been mentioned in-thread as somewhat contrived or hammy. That said, it does further establish how his immediate instinct is to protect Jessica. It also suggested to me that at least some of his more playful comments are a kind of spectacle or shell, a protective layer (this is going to be cheesy: like the plaster or stone) because it's hard to be vulnerable emotionally:

5. To extend that reading just a bit, Kyle's treasure for Damon is a crow bar that can get into any vault. That's inventive in a material way: access to closed-off spaces is better than depicting any individual treasure. Of course that ends up being insufficient, but it shows that Kyle thinks like a thief: access through security is more important than merely imagining wealth or treasure. That also seems to align with how he conducts himself: controlling access to his more vulnerable side is necessary to be the strong man, the well-regarded thief, or (at least so he has thought) someone Jessica wants. That's how Kyle has to learn and grow - going beyond pranks and breaking into things to learn how to be (a) a leader and (b) a good person to his friends.

6. This is what he's working through when he sings: he has to give an excuse for why he's a good singer. It can't just be that he's bad. It has to be something macho, active, and hard:

Admittedly, Jessica doesn't take it well either.

Social and emotional walls aren't broken down in an instant, after all:

7. I could go on, but that's what I see Kyle going between throughout the story, and scenes often touch on that dynamic (being the thief/leader/warrior who brushes off trouble; being open to himself and the people around him). Lots of scenes suggest that performativity, like when he seems to be getting drunk with an official in Meryod and suddenly switches gears, showing that all of that was a performance to get what he wants:

And that face change!

I'd go as far as to say that Kyle seems like he has less development because he's so often putting on a show, and his interesting side (as a character) comes in the moments when that breaks.

"Just as you touch the energy of every life form you meet, so, too, will will their energy strengthen you. Fail to live up to your potential, and you will never win. " --- The Old Man at the End of Time

Wow, I've forgotten a lot of moments from SSSC. Probably because every time I start to replay it I end up stopping somewhere in the first third, like Lann.

He's definitely highly respected as a leader in TSS. And trainer, too!

"OUR LEADER'S NAME IS KYLE. HE'S A BIT OLDER THAN YOU, AND REALLY STRONG. HE'S A GOOD GUY ALL AROUND!"

"EVEN THOUGH KYLE IS STILL YOUNG,... MASTER MEL ENTRUSTED THIS REGION TO HIM. IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT JOB!"

"THE GUYS HERE ALL USED TO BE HARDCORE THIEVES, BUT KYLE BROUGHT THEM HERE AND SHAPED THEM UP TO BE PROTECTORS OF THE BARRIER!"

"OH BOSS! IT'S GOOD TO HAVEYOU BACK HERE IN NANZA!THEY SAY GHALEON'S GOING TOATTACK US ANY DAY! YOU'VEGOT TO PROTECT US!"(Kyle responds:)"WHAT KIND OF WIMPS ARE YOU? IF YOU REMEMBER ALL THAT I TAUGHT YOU, YOU'LL BE FINE! "

"BOSS, YOU'VE GOT TO STAYHERE AND HELP US DEFENDNANZA AGAINST GHALEON!"(Kyle's response:)"I'VE TRAINED YOU FOR YEARS, SO I KNOW YOU'RE CAPABLE OF DEFENDING NANZA ALONE! "

And I should have pasted this bit in my reply above that bumped this thread, about Kyle respecting Mel."WHEN KYLE HEARD THAT MASTER MEL WAS TURNED TO STONE, HE WENT SOMEWHERE TO BE ALONE. HE REALLY LOOKED UP TO MASTER MEL. DID YOU KNOW MEL GAVE HIM THIS ASSIGNMENT? "

He doesn't have a connection to Reza in TSS, but it turns out that the thief that robbed them is one of Kyle's men:"OH BOSS! I'M SORRY FOR ALL THE TROUBLE I CAUSED YOU IN REZA...BELIEVE ME! IT WAS A MIXUP! I DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS YOU THAT I WAS RIPPING OFF! "

There's even a kid who wants to be like him. I don't remember if this is also the case in SSSC."SON, YOU CAN'T SAY YOU'LL BE A THIEF! YOU SEE, NOT ALL THIEVES ARE AS KINDHEARTED AS KYLE."

Oh, and back to my other point...whether or not Mel thinks Kyle and Jessica are a good match, this guy does:"THE OTHER DAY, A CHILDHOOD FRIEND OF OUR LEADER'S CAME TO VISIT. SHE WAS KIND OF A TOMBOY, BUT WOW! WAS SHE GORGEOUS! I THINK SHE AND KYLE LOOK GOOD TOGETHER! "

"A PRETTY TOMBOY CAME TO VISIT KYLE THE OTHER DAY... I WISH SHE HAD STAYED. SHE WAS A GOOD INFLUENCE ON HIM! "

"HEY!YOU'RE THE GIRL THATVISITED KYLE THE OTHER DAY!HAVE YOU COME BACK TO SEEKYLE AGAIN? <WINK>"

"I WONDER IF OUR LEADER, KYLE, IS REALLY INTERESTED IN JESSICA,... OR IF HE'S JUST TOYING WITH HER MIND? "

"SAY BOSS! HAVE YOU LOSTINTEREST IN JESSICA,ALREADY?ON TO GREENERPASTURES, HMMM?"(Kyle's response:)"SHUT UP, YOU BRAINLESS DUNG-BEETLE! "

AkagisWhiteComet wrote:I'm sure I'll be corrected on this but I'm pretty sure that in the novel (right?) for LUNAR TSS Kyle was given a more prominent role and appears to the 'party' much earlier on. I want to say he was some sort of pirate, which would reinforce Mel's acceptance of him and vise versa as they would have came up from a similar background.

Only technical thing I'll say is that the novel is really based more on SSS, not TSS, but it's still such a radical story departure that is pretty different from both. Anyway, in the novels, (a) Kyle is a pirate, and (b) Mel has wanted posters put out for him.

From my summaries/translations:

http://www.lunar-net.com/novels/sss1.php wrote:Nash notices that the "monster" is man-made by indicating what appear to be carvings on the side. So it's a ship, but it runs without wind power, and magic power is strangely absent from this area right now. Nash them remembers: this is the Dragon Steamship Reguiss! With the famed pirate on board—

[237] "Ha ha ha ha!" calls out a voice, as a man about three or four years older than Alex jumps down from the ship onto the deck of Jessica's yacht. He introduces himself as Kyle, the Pirate of Justice. Alex introduces himself, and Nash is scared. Kyle continues: his usual demand is for all the money on hand, but he'll settle for just half their silver for the time being.

http://www.lunar-net.com/novels/sss1.php wrote:"Attention:The Pirate Kyle. Wanted for kidnapping women and plundering goods. We shall protect the city from enemies of peace like the Pirate Kyle! Be on the lookout for the Pirate Kyle on the streets at night! If you have any information regarding the Pirate Kyle, contact the Meribian Navy at once.- Mel de Alkirk"

Alunissage wrote:I should be able to tell you about his role in the novel, but I can't... I read some of it in translation and the style got to me a bit and I had to stop. (I think it's the original writing, not the translation, that got to me; I doubt the translator put in adjectives that weren't there.)

No it's probably both. The translator did, in fact, put in a *lot* of extra adjectives and descriptions that were nowhere in the original novel. The original novel, meanwhile, had very... basic writing -- it's a "light novel" after all and so it's literally designed to be accessible to people aged 12+. I say this despite the fact that I do in fact really like the novels.

The translation though did get on my nerves a little precisely because of the amount of unnecessary detail added by the localization. I honestly think that John Sears was instructed to increase the length of the novel (directly translated without embellishment it would've been very short), hence the added descriptions, and why I really don't want to blame him for the quality as it comes off like he was under some major constraints. KF