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Hmm . . . I was going to bring up the potential difference between a Mystery Dungeon fic because the Pokemon there exist in a different world from humans and fill the same niche humans would have, as opposed to Pokemon acting more as Pokemon in a "Pokemon-centric" one, but Dragonfree pretty much said everything I would have on that topic. I just wonder if Pokemon filling the role usually filled by humans would be enough to make it separate from one about more traditionally depicted Pokemon. That said, I'd recommend keeping the Pokemon-centric category around if a split occurs rather than replacing it for a Mystery Dungeon one.

I'm not sure if this question might be a bit off-topic, so sorry if it doesn't help anything, but what would a trainer fic told from the Pokemons' perspective (such as diamondpearl876's Survival Project) count as: Trainer-fic or Pokemon-centric? I would assume the latter, but just want to have it clarified.

I'm not sure if this question might be a bit off-topic, so sorry if it doesn't help anything, but what would a trainer fic told from the pokemon's perspective count as: Trainer-fic or Pokemon-centric? I would assume the latter, but just want to have it clarified.

After reading Dragonfree's idea for what he wanted for pokemon-centric, thats the ideal story he had in mind for when creating the category, what he'd call Pokemon POV.

It seems like I've got the most coherent argument from the against camp, and I'd like to think I've got a pretty unbiased opinion, seeing as I do not have, nor have I written, a pokemon centric fic, nor a mystery dungeon fic. So, whatever the result of this is, it has no bearing on me personally. So, I'll reiterate the points I've made so far. I begin with my view of the PMD genre/subgenre/what-have-you:

Originally Posted by Feralninja

The way I see this whole PMD situation is thus:
There is a trainer-centric category, and a pokemon-centric category. The trainer-centric genre is very broad, and encompasses many different story types. The pokemon-centric does the same. Last year, the idea to have a journey fic category was vetoed because it fell under the heading of a trainer fic. A PMD fic is technically a pokemon-centric fic, and therefore falls under the umbrella. While it has become a large part of that genre in the past year, at least on these forums, it still is pokemon centric, and therefore belongs under the category.

Then, I brought up the point that, to the best of my knowledge, a large amount of the pokemon-centric fics this year (I only saw two exceptions going back five pages in the archive and keep in mind this was a very brief sweep) are PMD centric, or at least in that universe. So, while people who have written pokemon centric fics, be they PMD or standard, will favor the separation of the categories. So, seeing as I pretty much just restated the entire quoted part, I'll bold the only bit that's still relevant...

Originally Posted by Feralninja

This is also a good point. A really quick sweep of the archive shows that there really aren't too many non-PMD pokemon fics this year. Now, if I understand correctly, PMD fics are very much like journey fics, which take a considerable amount of time to write. If this is the case, likely many of the fics eligible this year will also be eligible next year. It might be a good idea to see how many get nominated, and if they are a sizable block, consider the category for next year's awards.

As JX said, these awards are constantly in a state of beta. We see how many fics we have this year that are PMD, and if a large number surface next year, then yeah, we implement a new category. But as it stands, I think we should take some time to see if this fad actually lasts.

Dragonfree raises a good point in saying that most PMD fics are about a human who is transformed into a pokemon, but the story is told from the perspective of a pokemon, interacting with pokemon, in a world populated exclusively by pokemon. The general consensus among fic writers (that I have encountered) is that pokemon are intelligent creatures, at least on the threshold as the dogs we encounter in the real world, if not on the level of pigs, dolphins or chimpanzees, or in the cases of several fics (my own included) at or above human capacity. So, I state that in many pokemon centric fics, the pokemon are displayed as at least having some kind of sapience, and if aforementioned sapience is slightly exaggerated in the PMD fics, so be it.

The fact remains, the category as it stands is fics told from a pokemon POV, and PMD fics are nothing if not told from a pokemon POV. I say no change is necessary.

Now, before someone brings up the example of other spin-offs getting their own genres, I have a counter-argument for that too, at least in the case of Ranger and Conquest. A pokemon ranger fic would most certainly be a trainer fic, because it's a human commanding pokemon to accomplish tasks for the greater good. It focuses on a human and their exploits with pokemon, ergo, trainer fic. Conquest, same deal. If the fic focuses on a Warrior/Warlord and their journey (read: journey) with a linked pokemon or three, there you go, trainer fic. If it's about a pokemon who links with a warlord and travels with them, pokemon fic. It's pretty easy to figure out, guys. I haven't played any other spin-offs beside those three, so I can't vouch for the other non-main series games. If fics about them turn up (and I certainly haven't seen any) then we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

The point that I'm trying to get at is that PMD fics fit very nicely under the umbrella of pokemon-centric fics. It's told from a pokemon POV, and that's the definition of that category. I'm pretty sure that's the baseline argument of the against camp, when you strip it down. So, I think that's pretty much all we who are against have to say, but if I overlooked anything, feel free to correct me.

To follow up with after DF's defense, I've got a few more points to add. I'll start with the “what-if” defense and expand off of that.

Yes, that one. Quite frankly, I agree with DF that if any of the other games started having a growing popularity, then yes, by all means, they deserve to stay around which brings me to my argument. Say MD games were what Gamefreak actually started with then later followed up with what we know as the mainstream games they actually do. The only reason trainer fics is its own category is because of the amount of time and game development that allows us writers to expand on. If history was written as I mentioned early, then MD fics would be the mainstream popularity to write.

Now I can sit here and conjecture what-ifs all day long, and they would hold very little relevancy; however, I am inclined to agree with JX that MD fics are quite frankly in a state of revolution and expansion. If I'm not mistaken, there are about five to seven MD fics that are showing progress in their making, meaning they're not just some spur-of-the-moment fic that is only posted for a prologue/chapter 1 then abandoned. We're talking serious writers. Quite frankly, I've checked over the completed fics, and I'm only aware of one completed MD fic which is Ysavvryl's. So maybe there have been spurts where MD fics were started but never continued, but right now, that's not the case.

I'll return to trainer fics at this moment to point out that the only reason why it has its own section is because most, not all, but almost every human-centric story is along the lines of a trainer fic. That and the popularity to write them is abundant, ridiculously abundant. MD fics are on the verge to stepping over that underground writing section and into its own genre.

Now, on more to my earlier post of trialing MD fics as its own award. Quite bluntly, there isn't a problem with it. So what if there is little to no non-MD poke fics. Like DF mentioned, and I agree with her intention of what poke-centric was meant for, a truly pokemon POV to me is just the average pokemon in some kind of adventure. Which, in thinking, I'd be happy to lump MD fics into a hybrid category because that is what it is.

Now, I'm not saying that MD should have its own category, but the fact that it is right now classified as poke-centric isn't its best classification. Like I mentioned, a genre more akin to a hybrid category would be better.

Dragonfree raises a good point in saying that most PMD fics are about a human who is transformed into a pokemon, but the story is told from the perspective of a pokemon, interacting with pokemon, in a world populated exclusively by pokemon. The general consensus among fic writers (that I have encountered) is that pokemon are intelligent creatures, at least on the threshold as the dogs we encounter in the real world, if not on the level of pigs, dolphins or chimpanzees, or in the cases of several fics (my own included) at or above human capacity. So, I state that in many pokemon centric fics, the pokemon are displayed as at least having some kind of sapience, and if aforementioned sapience is slightly exaggerated in the PMD fics, so be it.

I don't think you read my post very carefully, because my argument has nothing to do with whether or not the main character of Mystery Dungeon fics used to be a human, or whether Pokémon are sapient for that matter. My argument is, why is simply "told from the perspective of a Pokémon" a meaningful category for an award, any more than "told from the perspective of someone with blue eyes"? The reason I made the Pokémon-centric category in the first place was that what I really meant by Pokémon-centric was not the umbrella "anything from the perspective of a Pokémon" definition; it had to do with a set of shared themes, goals and ideas shared by the most common kind of Pokémon-centric story, which centers around the inhumanity of Pokémon and/or the relationship between Pokémon and humans. Mystery Dungeon stories do not center around the inhumanity of Pokémon or the relationship between Pokémon and humans: they're about Pokémon that live in a completely humanlike society but with no actual humans. They have nothing in common with the canon universe Pokémon POV "genre" other than the completely arbitrary, superficial fact that both of their main characters look like one of a particular set of 649 creatures. There is no more meaningful reason to lump them together into one award than to lump stories about characters with blue eyes together: sure, you can, but the point of genres and separate awards for them is to group like with like, not in some arbitrary terms but in terms of the broad themes they deal with and how they tackle them. Fandom-specific categories like "trainer fic" or "Mystery Dungeon fic" or "Pokémon POV" the way I originally intended it are considerably more narrowly defined than true genres such as drama, romance or horror, but they are the same kind of thing: the stories they group together share meaningful thematic qualities that make them more comparable with other stories within the same category than outside of them.

Originally Posted by Ememew

I'm not sure if this question might be a bit off-topic, so sorry if it doesn't help anything, but what would a trainer fic told from the pokemon's perspective (such as diamondpearl876's Survival Project) count as: Trainer-fic or Pokemon-centric? I would assume the latter, but just want to have it clarified.

I don't think Survival Project is a trainer fic at all; superficially it is about a trainer traveling to get badges with his Pokémon, but everything about how it approaches the subject revolves around the different characters of the Pokémon and how they view their very unusual trainer, training in general, and battling. While Sai is a very important character and central to the driving question of the plot, the main characters are the Pokémon and the plot is consistently approached from the Pokémon POV angle.

Morphic(completed, plus silly extras)
A few scientists get drunk and start fiddling with gene splicing. Ten years later, they're taking care of eight half-Pokémon kids, each freakier than the next, while a religious fanatic plots to murder them all.

This literally took me a couple of hours to type up (probably because I'm tired), and holy crap, I was ninja'd a lot, haha. So, behind a cut it goes! It really only responds to Butler, so most likely, all of you had a more diplomatic approach to things.

As in, don't mind me~!

Spoiler:- Lmao, would it be a me-post if it wasn't ten pages long and full of white-knighting and things that make me an intensely obnoxious person who is somehow still tolerated in this community?:

Originally Posted by The Great Butler

Again, though, I'll raise the point - Mystery Dungeon as far as being a "genre" is very narrow a definition. "Trainer fic" can go any of a number of ways, but we've even seen a definition of "Mystery Dungeon fic" in this thread that's quite narrow.

Well, as Brutaka explains, PMD isn't exactly narrow (or at least so narrow that it can only mean one extremely specific type of fic). Sure, some PMD fics follow a formula, but then again, so do some trainer fics. That doesn't mean that all of them do or that all of them are set in the same universe. To write a PMD fic means one of two things: A) that you're writing a fic about a human turning into a Pokémon and going on an adventure or that B) you're borrowing concepts from the PMD universe. Either can be taken any number of ways, just like how in trainer fics, you can either write a formulaic fic about a trainer going off on a badge/whatever quest or a fic about a trainer.

If we start considering Mystery Dungeon a separate genre simply because it got popular and is "different," again, what happens if the same becomes the case for Pokemon Ranger, Pokemon Conquest or Pokemon ReBURST one year? This is a slippery slope to be going down.

Also note that PMD fics are not a fad, as I've mentioned earlier. In some parts of the fandom, it is considered a genre (or a subgenre) because they've got a strong following with a lengthy library of titles and pretty solid definitions for what a PMD fic entails (in the same way trainer fics do). So we're not talking about something that's popular right now. We're talking about something that's been around in the fandom for years but just happened to become a little more popular here this year. There's a difference between the two concepts, and that's simply that in the latter case, the subject actually does have potential to last.

It is no more vague than any of the things you named. "Pokemon-centric" means it is a story that primarily stars Pokemon instead of humans.

Unfortunately, that can mean any number of things, as I've said earlier. There's not that many fics that go into canon characters, and canon character-centric usually also spends time delving into characterization. So, as I've said earlier, people who look at the canon character-centric category already have a vague idea of what to expect; people who look at Pokémon-centric don't because that term covers not only the fics that are considered Pokémon POV but also PMD (which doesn't necessarily focus on being a Pokémon so much as the adventure aspect of the story) or other possibilities. It might have started off as specific when Dragonfree came up with it (and I would be okay with it if it was still that specific), but in recent years, it's gotten a broader and broader meaning to the point where it doesn't really represent anything specific besides what type of character the cast consists of. In short, it's not like canon character-centric because that category literally focuses on the canon character. It's more like what would happen if you had a human-centric category. In fact, I'll probably be bringing up the human-centric concept a lot in this post, so keep that in mind.

Conversely, "Canon-character-centric" means that it is a fic that primarily stars an existing canon character.

However, that category is basically for fics that focus on the canon character -- as in, pays particularly close attention to their point of view and building/highlighting their character, not on the general story.

Subdividing a couple of categories into numerous smaller ones will only result in spreading the same number of nominations over a wider number of categories, leading to more "First-place-by-way-of-being-only-candidate" categories.

Depends on how you deal with it. A fic can most definitely be nominated for multiple categories; there's no rule (as of yet) that says a fic can only be nominated for one genre. For example, last year, AEM was nominated for sci-fi and horror because it could be. There's no reason why another fic couldn't be nominated for drama, horror, canon-centric, or, heck, even every single one if enough people feel like nominating that fic. Sure, we can impose a rule that says one person can nominate a fic only so many times, but what happens if five people decide to nominate the fic for completely different categories? Huzzah wider nets, amirite?

So I honestly don't see how more genres (or more specific ones, anyway) = sparser nominations. If anything, it'd give people more options, which would allow them to nominate their favorites a bit easier. Vaguer categories means there's a possibility that people are left to wonder whether or not a fic fits it, and given the Pokémon-centric category in past years, I wouldn't be surprised if that element of confusion and ambiguity is why there aren't usually that many nominees for that category annually.

Is what you're saying that categories don't mean anything if they have a large field of nominees?

Actually, no, I'm saying that categories don't mean anything if they have loose definitions. If you can group two completely different fics that share only one tiny little element between them in the same category, people won't know what the category is meant to be for. Sure, we've got the basic definition ("it's for fic centered on Pokémon"), but considering that could mean goodness knows how many different things, that leaves ambiguity in people's minds as to whether or not their potential nominations fit. Why bother with an ambiguous category when there's ten other ones that you understand completely?

In other words, it's the same logic that goes behind the "show, don't tell" advice some fics get. If I told you that a character was kind but never specified what made them kind, that quality means nothing to you as a reader. Okay, so they're kind. That could mean anything from "they let you rant at them about the littlest problems" or "they are literally Mother Teresa." In the same vein, Pokémon-centric is too broad of a qualifier right now. That could mean anything from a trainer fic told from a Pokémon's point of view to what Gothitelle used to write. So it ends up meaning very little to someone who's organizing their nominations because it's too ambiguous. Meanwhile, specifying categories or categories with built-in connotations (like canon-centric) are a lot like having a scene in which a character reveals that they rescue animals, volunteer to mentor underprivileged kids, and visit the elderly in their spare time. That means something to a reader (and a voter) because it's easier to grasp something that's more specific. You still aren't so narrow as to exclude huge swaths of fic (just as you have leeway to form your own interpretations of how kind characters are so long as you're not beaten over the head with it), but you can still get a better idea of what it means to be a certain type of fic if you link nominations together by doing more than just matching up the species of their main characters.

this has now expanded from simply asking if Mystery Dungeon needs its own category to suggesting that we need to reinvent large portions of the category list simply to accommodate said category?

Actually, the latter was the question from the beginning on a level. The whole point of why I asked was to open up discussion for new genre categories, and PMD fics was a good lead-in for that because Pokémon-centric is, in my view, vague as it is right now.

Again, all this is going to lead to is a larger number of categories spreading out the nominations, thus leading to less competition overall.

Not... really? O_o Legitly speaking, I'm not sure how you got to the idea that more categories = less competition. As I've said earlier in this post, it's not like people can only be nominated for one category ever. It depends on how many people nominate you for what categories, and if that seems like it would turn the awards into a popularity contest... well, that's always been a part of the awards, sorry to say. That's not necessarily criticism, either. It's just impossible to have the awards work any other way, and if we had fewer categories, the story would still be the same. The problem (if it can be considered a problem) isn't the number of categories in that case; it's just the way people nominate fics.

That, and what's "vague" or "not vague" is subjective.

Vague = ambiguous = could mean any number of things. We've already established that Pokémon-centric covers a huge amount of territory (even more so than the other categories, considering Pokémon-centric is actually more accurately a sister category to the nonexistent human-centric category as it's defined now), so it's not really all that subjective. It is vague because while the definition seems simple, that doesn't really define what does or doesn't fit for the same reason saying a story centers on humans doesn't tell us what the story actually entails.

Then Ranger fics have existed since 2006 and Conquest and ReBURST since 2011,

Except those fics are generally not considered genres because few people write fics that are set outside of those universes' canon. (Or they just haven't developed beyond that right now, whereas PMD fic has.) The reason why PMD is considered a genre/subgenre on places like FFNet, dA, and other fic communities is because you could say "it's a PMD fic" and mean simply that a human is turned into a Pokémon and flung into a Pokémon-only world to have an adventure. That doesn't necessarily include the cast, the plot, or the tone of the PMD games.

But Brutaka explains it better than I can, and I'm sure other PMD authors could too.

What if the Mystery Dungeon fics stop being popular by 2013's awards?

Then we discuss it in next year's planning thread.

But considering the fact that PMD authors are gaining a solid foothold in this forum, I doubt they're going to go away that easily by next year.

Like what I said earlier, would Eevee-starter fics or Colosseum fics warrant their own separate genre from trainer fics if they got really popular one year? No, I don't think they would, so there isn't much difference here.

Except these examples don't entirely work because those would definitely be fics belonging to genres. Eevee starters? Trainer fic. Colosseum? Depends on what you do with it. Bobandbill's would be filed under comedy, but you could also have a Colosseum fic that's filed under trainer or canon character-centric.

The issue with PMD fics is that it's debatable as to whether or not you can really file them under anything else, and that's probably what the PMD authors were talking about when they said the genre was "out there." PMD fics aren't trainer fics or canon-centric, they could possibly be in part drama or comedy but not necessarily primarily so, and they're arguably sci-fi/fantasy or adventure. However, there's also unifying themes tying all PMD fics together, so you could have a PMD fic that was drama and focused a lot on the magic portion, or you could tell the story of a rescue team that doesn't include a human-turned-Pokémon (which would weed out the sci-fi/fantasy, depending on what they did). The only thing they could possibly be nested under is Pokémon-centric, but that groups them into the same category as fics that have absolutely nothing in common with them except for what the main character is. It'd be like me saying that Mary Sue Must Die, Operation GEAR, and every last fic Gothitelle has written recently should be grouped together because all of them star humans.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It may not be the dictionary definition of "genre," perhaps, but it does more or less work reliably.

You shouldn't feel sorry. That wasn't a complaint; it was a, "Oh hey, so that's actually kind of interesting." Because it's really true, and that's what makes Pokémon awesome. This fandom is one of the few ones that have so many different types of fandom-specific genres that are actually genres. It's not necessarily a problem, either. It expands a writer's creativity and has actually firmly established the Pokémon multiverse as being a sandbox, not a static thing where we're confined to very specific definitions. We don't have to write about the canon characters, for example, and we don't have to use the genres that the franchise sets for us. We can pretty much make up whatever the merry mess we want, and it's perfectly valid. Trainer fics taught us that and encouraged us to run with it. Sure, not every attempt at a genre-launcher works, but then you get interesting concepts like the history fic subgenre or TF (genre/subgenre/depends on which day of the week it is).

The new categories last year weren't really the same case we're seeing here, which is creating a new genre simply based on the popularity of one narrowly-defined type of fic and then reconstructing everything around it to accommodate it.

We had category proposals that have had similar discussions. Remember how we were going over whether or not romance should be a category (and whether or not all romance was shipping)?

Even so, my point was that every year, we try something new. Sometimes, it works, and we keep it. Other times, it doesn't work, and we change it. It's not really all that fair to discourage the idea of testing anything in the upcoming awards because then what would the point of the discussion thread be? If you don't want to ask for suggestions on what needs to be changed, then you might as well move forward and post the nominations thread without asking for our opinions on matters.

Mystery Dungeon is a much more narrowly defined "genre" going by the definition we saw in this post.

That's... not really what the linked post is saying. O_o Did you mislink, or am I missing the point here? If you're talking about the quotes, I can vouch for my own by explaining that, yes, PMD fic has a narrower definition compared to something... but that something was Pokémon-centric fics. Feral's point, as I understand it as of this writing, was that there's not that many non-PMD Pokémon-centric fics, which is true. Except that doesn't have anything to do with trainer fics because trainer fics also have a very specific definition that sets it apart from any other human-centered fanfiction.

Yes, you can play with expectations, but the basic definition is there. I do not feel that it is right to create a genre award for something so specific that is, again, based on a fad.

But PMD fic isn't a fad.

What I mean by that is that people have been writing PMD fic for half a decade already, with no evidence that there will be fewer PMD fics in the future. Here, specifically, it got popular this year, sure, but we have no reason to believe the PMD authors (of which there are quite a few) will simply stop writing PMD fic or encourage others to do the same. There were PMD fics last year and the year before that in the mix. It's not like we're talking about something that just appeared out of nowhere this year. We're just talking about something that has gained a vocal following.

Well, I'm glad I wasn't against her myself. I'd feel pretty bad right now. I mean, just because a certain author is in the mix for a category doesn't mean the others should be automatically written off.

Good. Then you agree with me in saying that the fics that would be in the category we're modifying/splintering would stand just as good of a chance in any other category. b)'')b

Seriously put, though, that's part of the point of the awards: to pit your work against those of other authors in order to see which one is considered the best on the forums. Attempting to make things fair by separating fics out and preventing authors from being nominated for other categories sort of misses the point of the competition, if you don't mind me saying, because you can't accurately judge whether or not those lone fics are good. (You can certainly figure out whether or not they're not so great if they fail at winning a category they're the only ones running in, though.)

The fics may very well be good ones. I never said they weren't.

Well... you actually did. Here, lemme break it down for you:

Dumping the people who had their entries in the "best Pokemon-centric" category out of it into categories where they may have to contend against opposition they can't tread water with

The two "they" words go with the subject, so you're saying that the entries in the Pokémon-centric category can't tread water with the entries in other categories.

But semantics aside, if we go by what you probably meant to say (that you'd be up against more competition), there's two things you have to consider:

1. The point of the competition. You're going to be up against all kinds of fic. Quality is not dependent on the fic's genre, especially if you're being judged by that genre's fans. If your fic doesn't win out against a fic that gets reslotted into your category, then that's pretty much on you because the whole point of the awards is to pit your fic against others in order to determine who's the best (or at least the most appealing) in the forums. So if you're up against elyvorg and if people vote for elyvorg, then that has nothing to do with the fact that she got slotted into your category and everything to do with the quality of her work compared to yours. If it's the amount of competition you'll suddenly get that you're worried about, then... that's sort of the point of the competition as well.

2. You're not guaranteed a certain number or certain types of rivals for each title. Sure, this might be taken as a point against creating new genre categories, but basically, a fic can get nominated for literally anything, depending on how people view its content. Case in point: AEM was nominated for best horror last year. It's not a horror fic. (That will never not be awesome, by the way.) It could be nominated for comedy this year for all I know. I won't know who I'm up against until the nominations period closes, and likewise, no one will know who will be up against me. So it's difficult to say whether or not you'll end up in the same category as an author with whom you can't "tread water" because, well, it's really unpredictable.

(On that note, I'd like to go on record right now and say that I will vote for every single person who nominates AEM if that fic ends up in every single genre category this year. Every single one. Including and especially the ones it has no business of being in. Just because that would be hilarious. /totally not a terrible person suggesting terrible things)

What I said is unfair is taking them out of a category where they are competing against themselves and dumping them against even better opposition than they should be facing, fics that actually were originally designed for the category and thus play to it far more effectively than fics that weren't originally for that category but got thrown there.

Isn't... that the same thing, though? I mean, you're doubting the ability of fics to be able to stand up on their own and compete against others, even in genres where they actually do fit. For example, let's say there's a fic in horror. Let's also say (again, as an example) that we decided to nominate that fic for trainer fics as well. What you're saying is that it's unfair for them because they're no longer guaranteed a win. However, that's not remotely fair because you're also saying that they have a long-shot of winning the more populous category. Sure, there's more competition, but if that horror fic was really good, there's no reason why you should be worried about how it would fare against other fics in the trainer genre. It's like I've said before. Fics get judged based on quality. If you win out over elyvorg, that says something about the quality of her fic, not about the specific content of it. However, she's also got an equal chance of winning out over you, and if she's a particularly good author, then she would. It's much more fair to give authors a chance at that because winning a more populous category tends to be a lot more exciting than winning one by default. (Not that I'm not proud of the fact that my fics have not rolled epic failures at winning categories they were running alone in or anything. It still means something and makes me happy either way, but I have to admit what makes me flip out with glee to the point of going "CHAMPAGNE FOR EVERYONE INCLUDING THE MINORS" is seeing my fic win an award when it's not the only one running.)

That's not right, because "trainer fic" doesn't equal games either.

But it was at one point. The reason why you see a lot of echoing in the format of trainer fics (wake up, get starter, go on adventures) is because a lot of them took cues from or were set in the games' universe when the genre first started. After all, the reason why a lot of people wrote about a trainer's journey is because they wanted to chronicle the events of the games from the points of view of their own characters. (There were also anime retellings, in which characters either accompanied Ash or followed the same path as the anime series, but I'm pretty sure that was considered a horse of a different color.) It's evolved since then to mean a lot of different things (although the format is still there). It's the same thing with PMD fics.

There is no evolution going on here, the number of Mystery Dungeon fics simply increased.

You'd see it better if you read a lot of them on various sites. Brutaka went into pretty excellent detail about how his fic isn't the same as, say, Knightfall's, so there's that too. (Not meant to offend or criticize. Just saying.)

The question assumed for the topic that the physics of the anime universe counted as science fiction.

The answer does the same, though. I'll explain why in just a second.

Hell, let's expand it and change the question around a little. What if the basic physics of the Pokemon world in general - thus including anime, game and manga-verse - were decided to be "science fiction" simply because that definition became popular, thus making all trainer fics sci-fi? What if, then, there was a popular demand to get rid of the sci-fi category and dump whatever remained into drama or comedy instead? That wouldn't be right.

Actually, that would because that's what happens with fandoms whose source materials are very specific about their genres.

Look at Star Trek. Everyone acknowledges that it's sci-fi. Kinda difficult not to, considering you literally can't write in that universe (AUs aside) without mentioning Starfleet, space exploration, advanced technology, and most certainly aliens. So by default, every fic (AUs aside again) is technically sci-fi on some level; it's just that the sci-fi genre gets muted to the background because it's a given. As a result, the way you have a noticeably sci-fi Star Trek fic, as redundant as that sounds, is by focusing specifically on the science aspects of it.

(Alternatively, we also already do this in this fandom, as Feral has brought up last year conveniently enough. Technically, Pokémon is a fantasy already because of the whole magical monsters thing, but we don't consider every fic written in its franchise fantasy because the magical monsters is a given. Instead, we only consider Pokémon fics to be fantasy if they specifically focus on fantastic elements.)

That in mind, yes, it sounds like I'm missing the point again, but what I mean is this. Franchises are generally already a specific genre, but they get muted out. As a result, what you're describing is sort of a moot point because fan thinking doesn't work that way. There would still be a sci-fi category, just as there's such a thing as a sci-fi Star Trek fic. It's just that it has to mean something specific to separate it from what's already a given thanks to the series premise. People generally don't determine what a fanfic is based on what the fanon opinion of the source content is. If you wrote an animeverse fic that's sci-fi, that becomes A Thing because you're focusing on the science specifically, not the animeverse part. So, like I said, it's a Venn diagram: you can focus on the science of a universe and have a sci-fi fic as a result, just as you can focus on the animeverse part of it and come out with an animeverse fic. Sci-fi would be the more specific genre in this case because it has to mean something specific (to separate it from the series premise), so if we were having this same discussion in your hypothetical situation, I would actually be suggesting that sci-fi be made its own category because animeverse could actually mean a lot of different things. The reason why is because in that case, the nested element would be sci-fi, not animeverse, because it would be taken as a given that the animeverse was already sci-fi, so to be a sci-fi fic in a sci-fi universe, you have to do something that makes your work distinctively sci-fi. As in, it only becomes a "true" (according to the fandom) sci-fi fic in that case if you actually focus on the science of it. So sci-fi fics end up becoming a separate entity from every other animeverse fic because you'd be focusing specifically on it, whereas other fics might focus on the journey aspect or the relationship between characters (in the same way you might have a Star Trek fic that was actually considered to be romance because you decided to focus on the relationship between Kirk and Spock instead of the actual science of the universe).

In short, what you're talking about in your example is actually a reverse of what's being proposed here because you're taking the more general concept and giving it its own category and eliminating the specific concept... which is what Pokémon-centric does right now.

There's where the question lies. The problem with Pokémon-centric as it's defined in the awards right now is that it's not considered to be a Venn diagram. You're saying that all PMD fic needs to be considered as Pokémon-centric, even though not all PMD fics focus more on the Pokémon POV aspect than the journey/fantasy elements/adventure/what-have-you. Yes, both concepts involve Pokémon as main characters, but one looks at the journey while the other looks at what it's like to be a Pokémon. Pokémon-centric by Dragonfree's definition (and the original definition of the category) would be more acceptable, but that would mean PMD fics wouldn't entirely fit that category anymore because ironically enough, not every PMD fic is a Pokémon POV fic. (That is where the Venn diagram lies.)

In other words, going back to the human-centric concept, it's what separates AEM from Operation GEAR. Both might feature human characters (or close to human, anyway), but we focus on entirely different things. My fic is a sci-fi because I focus on science and alien invasions. Yours is an adventure fic (trainer fic in the latest GEAR) because it focuses more on completely different elements (like Olivia's journey as of the current chapter of your latest story). If both of our fics starred Pokémon instead (and ignore the technicalities concerning mine), what you're saying is that we should both be in the same category, rather than in different ones, because our cast members dictate that we're technically alike enough to be considered under the same umbrella.

Maybe not by a dictionary.

Which is cool, but it'd be interesting to discuss it, in any case. Legitly speaking, too.

Could we have that discussion without having arguments over what "drama" is?

Debating. And not really. We have a debate every year about genre categories, so one either way is inevitable. Sure, we don't discuss meanings or anything, but this discussion has a lot of similarities to the one about journey fics or the one about romance fics last year.

If there's an iron-clad argument already made, and any others are just not going to be as valid either way, isn't this matter settled, then?

No, because Feral's was only one argument. One reason in a possible list, and I'm not sure if we've made a decision in the awards before just by going on one piece of reasoning. By iron-clad, I mean "logical and well-thought-out." That doesn't mean that the opposition couldn't come up with similarly logical and well-thought-out points too, especially given the fact that one of the arguments against PMD fic was "I don't want it because I personally don't want it." (Sorry to say, anyway.) It's just that people needed to step up and voice a carefully planned opinion.

I would like to know more about your logic behind thinking we need a pretty drastic redesign in terms of categories.

I never said drastic. I said that one category was problematic, and we could have room for others, including a few that could take its place. I'm not proposing that we toss out every category or that we double the size of the genre awards or anything of the sort. I'm proposing that we reexamine what's already here in order to find possible holes and try something new. And that's really the point of the planning thread, isn't it?

I was troubled by the earlier comment about the "so few of them [nominations] that the category actually means something" but I want to try and understand why you would say something like that.

Exactly what I said earlier: there's so few fics that represent a canon character-centric story (for example) that you can easily see the thread that connects them all besides who the main character is. You can't see that in Pokémon-centric because Pokémon-centric only means "a Pokémon is the main character." But that could mean that you're looking at a romance fic, an adventure fic, a trainer fic, or something else. It's too broad of a topic because it's taken to be too broad of one; the canon character category is so small that a connotation could be applied to the concept. You can say that canon-centric fics focus a lot on the canon character's personality, thoughts, and/or development because, well, all the ones that we can think of that would fall under that category do. Fics that are considered to be Pokémon-centric by the current definition, meanwhile, only needs to star a Pokémon, but the main focus of the fic's premise could be on a journey, the science of their world, their romance with other characters, and so forth. There's a line between having genres (complete with subgenres) and having a loose umbrella concept, and the definition of that category as we see it now is the latter. So it ends up not having a significant, specific meaning because there's nothing tying all of the Pokémon-centric fics together besides who the star is. It's different with trainer fics or canon-centric fics, in which there's a lot more than just one thread shared between them.

What is your definition of "vague reasons," first of all?

"About this category, I'm leaning towards a no for personal reasons, but I'm not going to explain why." On the other side of things, "I want PMD fics because they're so out there, but I'm not going to explain what that means."

So in other words, if you don't explain your reasoning thoroughly and clearly (and preferably objectively), then it gets classified as vague in my book. For example, leaving it as "I don't want this because I don't think it's a good idea" or "I want this because it's out there" without really going into detail about what that means ends up being vague because you don't really explain your reasoning with specifics.

Unfortunately, that's exactly where this is going. To consider this a situation where it's not even possible for one side to convince the other before the issue has even been properly argued doesn't do anything but set that up.

Well, given that a lot of people suddenly chimed in after this point, I'd say mission accomplished on my end. Which is cool, actually.

I asked for arguments in favor of it,

But -- and I'm putting this as nicely as I can think of -- you were also biased from the get-go, considering you said you were leaning towards a no without really specifying why. When you did specify why, it felt like a lot of your arguments either discounted PMD fics (i.e., assumed that they're static/a fad) or other people's writing (the whole "can't tread water in other categories" thing) that, well... it's just rather discouraging for discussing category possibilities in general. It just didn't sound like a request for convincing arguments. It sounded more like you had already decided and considered any argument for PMD fics to be illogical or unfair.

Debates don't get settled instantly.

No one said they were. I simply said that if we're going to be discussing anything involving the planning of this event, we should go into it with an open mind in order to consider the potential for new concepts on a fair level.

I thought "I want it because it's something new" was a problem last year? I'm confused.

Honestly curious about where you got that one. From the looks of it, it wasn't the newness of the ideas that was the problem but rather whether or not they would have worked, period.

And conversely, "just because I want it" isn't entirely fair as a reason when it comes to everyone else.

No one ever said that was their only reason. I've been offering up explanations to both sides of the debate from the get-go with the hopes that the PMD side of things, at least, would discuss it. That included the logic behind why we should have a PMD category. It was when I started noticing that they were giving up when I made that post last night about how their side could still be argued because, frankly, "just because I don't want it" is not a fair argument, and that was the first argument anti-category side of things.

It is a dangerous precedent to set to begin creating new categories excluding everyone but the very people asking for them,

Didn't you argue earlier that it's fairer if a fic is excluded from a genre so it can win a category it's running in by itself?

Besides, no one's getting excluded. By redefining and adding other categories, we include everyone because we're not losing anything. We're simply redistributing information (and welcoming/encouraging authors of a developing fandom concept).

because if you begin doing that, it might be with good intentions but where does it stop?

It's not really all that extreme, though. Again, the fic awards are always in beta, which is why we have planning threads. If something doesn't work one year, we discuss it and consider not doing it again. If it wouldn't work, we, the people who you're asking by making this planning thread, should be the ones to decide that. Sure, you're the organizer, but the planning thread is for allowing us a chance to develop our own community-wide event. If you didn't want us to do that, you wouldn't be asking us for our opinions. As such, we'll be the ones to decide how far is too far, and it's okay to have enough faith in us to let us figure that out. If someone suggests something ridiculous, we can easily shoot it down ourselves as part of a consensus. A category for PMD fics, regardless of your opinion, is not a ridiculous request, considering there's logic for and against it, and we're not unanimous one way or the other about it (yet).

I do not honestly see all that much enthusiasm outside of the authors who would be directly benefiting from this category, and I am not convinced that doing this is fair to everyone else.

Spoke too soon about that too. (Thanks, Dragonfree!) That and the more I talk about the PMD side of things, the more I'm seeing how it could work as a category... or at least as something to be taken seriously in general. So there's a couple of supporters, at least.

Um... we're all perfectly capable of having a debate to resolve this, so what is wrong exactly?

A couple of problems. First off, yes, we could present you with thought-out arguments. (And it's awesome that we are now because people are awesome, ffs.) Not to say I stalk VMs (except I totally do), I know that people like Knightfall are passionate and could very well contribute excellent points (especially because they have insight into the genre), but for whatever reason, they're shy about doing so right now beyond "PMD is totally something different." So the first problem is that I'd like to state for the record that I'm not the voice for your side; I'm just painting the targets on points so everyone else can be awesome people (and not shy).

The second is this:

If you're honestly looking at this debate and chalking it up to that, you're not giving one side of the discussion a fair consideration.

I want to be shown an argument that will convince me to change my mind

Considering you're the event organizer who started up this planning thread, isn't it a little unfair that you're asking us to convince you to reconsider your possibly already set opinions just to suggest something new to try? I mean, the whole point of this thread is to discuss what we can do differently this year, so it's discouraging to know that the person running it can easily shoot down our ideas because we need to convince him not to make a decision without hearing us out completely first. I'm not trying to say you're close-minded or to insult you at all. I mean, if I want to suggest other new categories besides PMD, how do I know you're not going to like them and down-vote them from the get-go without letting people discuss them by themselves and come to a general public opinion about what the fanfiction forum wants to see in its own awards event? I just think that we should give all of the new ideas a chance and discuss them as a community before deciding for certain one way or another. Part of the point of my posts wasn't to be all over the place but was instead to present new ideas on both sides to see what people thought of them or where people took them as a community, not as a body who's trying to convince a governing body to see things their way.

I believe I brought this up last year, and I can't remember if it was implemented or already used as a matter of principle, but here it is:

For the fic moments awards, nominees in those categories should only be able to come from chapters posted in the past year. So, if a chapter was posted in November last year with a particularly good quote, it is not eligible for the best quote award, though a quote from March would be.

Also, I was wondering, is there a cap on the amount of times a fic can be nominated for those categories? Like, a journey fic is going to have several good heartwrenching/warming moments, if the author knows their stuff, and a fic that's supposed to be a comedy, like Missingno Master.'s work will have many funny moments. So is there a limit to this, or is it strictly limited to how many times/moments are nominated?

I know that people like Knightfall are passionate and could very well contribute excellent points (especially because they have insight into the genre), but for whatever reason, they're shy about doing so right now beyond "PMD is totally something different." So the first problem is that I'd like to state for the record that I'm not the voice for your side; I'm just painting the targets on points so everyone else can be awesome people (and not shy).

I think what you mentioned here about being shy is correct, I myself, unsure of how to respond would likely botch the argument because I'm not so great at wording things the way I want to be said, so providing an excuse/reason/point to prove why PMD fics should be it's own genre is really difficult for me and probably a few others.

All I can say is something that was already said and I don't think people quoting other people and just leaving posts saying "This" is going to help anyone on either side win this argument and it would be better to say nothing at all. I'm not sure if I am making sense myself right now but I hope you guys understand what I'm trying to say.

In addition, the people who aren't writing PMD fics gain nothing from arguing why there should be a PMD category and won't speak up so it only seems the people who do care (The authors of PMD fics and the people interested in a fair discussion) are just complaining because there isn't a category for their story or just want to argue for the sake of arguing when that's simply not the case.

I don't know what else to add other than I hope and pray that the category is created with the proper thought and reasoning behind it, being that they simply cannot be appropriately classified as anything else without treading treading 4 other genres as it stands now.

Again I hope I didn't shoot this argument down because I didn't explain well enough, it's just that there is not much else to say beyond what has been said, or so I feel.

*ninjad* twice. disregard or read or whatever. Yay it won.

Credit to Brutaka for the amazing banner and user bar. Yeah, having 2 is redundant, but it shows you guys my favorite pokemon, what story I had planned and my position in the WoJ.

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I believe I brought this up last year, and I can't remember if it was implemented or already used as a matter of principle, but here it is:

For the fic moments awards, nominees in those categories should only be able to come from chapters posted in the past year. So, if a chapter was posted in November last year with a particularly good quote, it is not eligible for the best quote award, though a quote from March would be.

I think we used this, but if we didn't, we should.

Also, I was wondering, is there a cap on the amount of times a fic can be nominated for those categories? Like, a journey fic is going to have several good heartwrenching/warming moments, if the author knows their stuff, and a fic that's supposed to be a comedy, like Missingno Master.'s work will have many funny moments. So is there a limit to this, or is it strictly limited to how many times/moments are nominated?

I think two quotes should be the maximum, though I'm not sure how that part of the awards usually go. Is there usually an overflow from one fic? Or do people seem laid back about it anyways?

I don't think I remember any such problems before, but I do think that this will be a useful idea to implement, especially if we do decide to begin revising categories. Maybe it might be a useful thing to use in places other than scene categories.

But yeah, two is a good number, I think? Yes/no?

As for category revision, what did we have so far? Drama, and what else?

Two seems OK to me, but I've never done anything with the awards planning before this time.

Let's run with two for now.

Would crossover fics (involving 2 or more fandoms) count as a category? Or are there even enough of them for it to matter? (Mostly asking out of curiosity.)

I would say that crossover would be a defined genre itself. But, I can't fully answer your question of if there are enough of them. From what I've seen, there are only a couple, but I've not seen everything.

I'm assuming "Trainer Fics" is supposed to encompass a broad array of stories. I'm assuming that would cover stories that are just action-oriented, gym battles/championship-oriented, personal quest-oriented, etc. Am I right?

Serebii FanFiction 2014 AwardsCo-Winner, Most Heartbreaking Story (Brothers' Bond)Co-Winner, Best Trainer Story (Brothers' Bond)Winner, Most Frightening Scene (Tales From The PokeDex)

I'm assuming "Trainer Fics" is supposed to encompass a broad array of stories. I'm assuming that would cover stories that are just action-oriented, gym battles/championship-oriented, personal quest-oriented, etc. Am I right?

You are correct. Any fic that includes Trainers would be up for nomination.

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Originally Posted by Sidewinder

While it is very reminiscent of a lot of journey trainer fics, it held my attention. It stands out among a lot of the other fics I've read lately and I'm excited to continue the story.

I'm assuming "Trainer Fics" is supposed to encompass a broad array of stories. I'm assuming that would cover stories that are just action-oriented, gym battles/championship-oriented, personal quest-oriented, etc. Am I right?

It would also count for fics that are shorter in length, like a one shot, but told from the POV of a trainer. The reason it's called trainer fic and not journey fic is because... it's like the square/rectangle deal. I think we can safely say that all (non-PMD) journey fics are trainer fics, but not all trainer fics are journey fics.

I think we can safely say that all (non-PMD) journey fics are trainer fics, but not all trainer fics are journey fics.

Vice-versa actually. All trainer fics are non-PMD journey fics, but not all non-PMD journey fics are trainer fics. It's entirely possible to have a journey fic that isn't about a trainer or a Pokémon in the PMD universe. (You could write one about a researcher, for example, depending on their reason for going on a journey. Not that I would have ever tried.) It's just that not that many people write a story like that... for whatever reason.

But anyway, pretty much as Shadow Lucario said, the main requisite for having a trainer fic is that it needs to focus on a trainer. As a result, it really could be a lot of different kinds of story so long as in the end, it's about being a trainer on some level.

That seems really kind of...I dunno. Unbalanced, maybe? Because how many stories are going to be considered "Horror" or "Sci-Fi" or one of the other genres? Not that many. But a TON of stories that aren't really all that similar are going to get lumped together as "Trainer Fics".

Why not separate that out in the sub-genre awards? Gym Challenge fics? Personal Quest/Adventure fics?

Serebii FanFiction 2014 AwardsCo-Winner, Most Heartbreaking Story (Brothers' Bond)Co-Winner, Best Trainer Story (Brothers' Bond)Winner, Most Frightening Scene (Tales From The PokeDex)

I want to extend an apology if I stepped on anyone's toes during the unfortunately intense argument over the Mystery Dungeon category. It wasn't my intent to cause as much controversy as I ended up causing, so for that, I apologize.

Originally Posted by Sid87

That seems really kind of...I dunno. Unbalanced, maybe? Because how many stories are going to be considered "Horror" or "Sci-Fi" or one of the other genres? Not that many. But a TON of stories that aren't really all that similar are going to get lumped together as "Trainer Fics".

Why not separate that out in the sub-genre awards? Gym Challenge fics? Personal Quest/Adventure fics?

I think you'd be subdividing the pool into too many narrower categories. Best Trainer Fic is almost like an extra category, in a sense; you can have Horror or Sci-Fi or whichever other category covered by a Trainer fic. Conversely, being a Trainer fic does not necessarily preclude a story from qualifying for other categories as well. Genres aren't strict, you can 'blend' them without incident.

That said, though, I'm working on putting together a list of genres so we can have a more in-depth discussion of the idea raised earlier for a revamp of the genre awards section, but I'm having a little trouble. Drama was one, so I'm thinking to add things like Comedy, Science Fiction, Horror, Tragedy, Romance and so on. I'm not confident in the things I'm picking out, though, so I would very much like to hear from others about the list.

That seems really kind of...I dunno. Unbalanced, maybe? Because how many stories are going to be considered "Horror" or "Sci-Fi" or one of the other genres? Not that many. But a TON of stories that aren't really all that similar are going to get lumped together as "Trainer Fics".

Why not separate that out in the sub-genre awards? Gym Challenge fics? Personal Quest/Adventure fics?

It would be a little bit too much like splitting hairs. The furthest I think we could ever take this would be "Journey Fics" and then "Other Trainer Fics" (do note that I am not proposing these categories, merely saying that these are two of the most viable umbrellas).

Though my journey fic does have many elements of a fantasy story (a growing awareness of magic, and several different magical systems pulled from my original fantasy, for example), I'd never codify it as such. So, some people who write a story that has aspects of sci fi or horror might feel that it falls more under a different category and be totally okay with it not being in the other genre category.