Friday, January 25, 2013

PvEers: Blizzard Wants You to PvP

Somehow I missed this whole PvP conspiracy in 5.1 and 5.0. Even looking back it is hard to say it existed, even if you could make an argument that it did. What am I babbling about? It is easier to gear up for PvE by doing PvP than it is to gear up doing PvE, or at least it will be in 5.2.

Lets start at the get go and the evidence that we all have taken advantage of but thought nothing about which proves that it is easier to start the gearing process through PvP.

The crafted 450 gear. It is dirt cheap to make and it is leaps and bounds better than the 429 and 437 quest items you might be sporting when you hit level 90. The 450 crafted gear, based on its dirt cheap cost, is roughly the PvP equivalent of the PvEers quest gear. The only difference is, for a few gold you can gear up 450 in every single armor slot through crafted PvP gear but even if you quest to the absolute last quest you will only get three 450 PvE pieces.

Remember, PvP and PvE gear of the same item level have the same stat allotment now, so the answer to the question of those that do not know is this. No, 450 PvP gear is not worse than 450 PvE gear, they are the exact same, the only difference is PvP gear comes with bonus PvP stats on it for free, with no consideration of item level allotment.

Lets look at part two of the initial gearing up process. Justice and honor gear. Justice and honor are the same thing for their respective parts. Justice is for low level starter gear in PvE and honor is for low level starter gear in PvP. When the expansion came out, justice purchased 450 gear, honor purchased 463 gear. So you could get better gear for PvE through PvP when you started. This was noticed and adjusted, the 450 justice gear was upgraded to 458 while the PvP gear was lowered to that level to put it in line with each other.

There were two problems however that still existed that were completely ignored by blizzard. One, you still needed reputation to buy the justice gear. Two, there were only a few pieces available for justice but you could buy an entire gear set with honor. So if you PvPed you could have all 458 gear but if you PvEed you could only get a few 458 pieces if you had the appropriate reputation. Since then I believe the reputation for justice gear has been removed, but the fact still remains you can get more 458 pieces though PvP than you can through PvE only measures.

So those first baby steps into the game when you first reach 90 are easier if you embrace PvP, even if it is only with the concept of buying PvP 450 craftable gear.

The reason most of us, myself included, didn't notice that it was so much easier to gear through PvP was because it was subtle at the start of the expansion and as soon as we moved along some it was completely forgotten about. As soon as the PvEers started dungeons, that 458 gear meant nothing, and we all started the second we hit 90 so it is quickly forgotten about, we got our 463s and never looked back.

That starting point, while minimally better through the PvP gear seems to have set the tone for the expansion. That tone is that PvP gear could, and most likely will, be used as the catch up gear of choice for the smart PvEer as the expansion goes on if something does not change.

Still as 5.2 comes out, unless something changes on the PTR, that 450 crafted PvP gear still will be the best option to get a super cheap start on your journey to gear up for PvE. It will allow you to perform so much better than just quest gear will and anyone that cares even a tiny bit about how they do will take advantage of the PvP gear, something that there is no PvE equivalent of.

With the coming release of 5.2 when looking at how things currently are it becomes more apparent that PvP will be the way for a new comer to gear up. 5.0 Valor gear will be cheaper, but will still be locked behind a wall that people will feel could be insurmountable in the gearing up process because they are new to 90 and already so far behind. That reputation will look like a huge cockblock and even more so when it seems like it is all grinding reputation to buy you subpar gear compared to the current level of gear in 5.2. The 5.1 valor gear will be behind the same wall, a reputation one, as will 5.2 valor gear and that will be behind a raid reputation to boot.

So they will hit 90 and see that they need to run dungeons until their eyes bleed and hope to get lucky with drops until they are almost in all 463s and can start the LFRs to once again hope and pray they get drops to move up the LFR ladder. They will slowly build up valor and have absolutely nothing to spend it on because all the gear it could buy is locked behind reputations and there is no upgrade NPC any longer making the valor they earn effectively useless.

Or... they can do as blizzard wants and start PvPing for their PvE gear.

In one nice long PvP weekend and you can gear yourself up in all 476 items come 5.2. Unlike running dungeons where it is hope and pray that things drop, you will earn honor and buy the pieces you want, all the pieces you want, as you want them. No luck involved, grind and earn, a beautiful way for gear progression if you ask me.

Lets just look at the gearing up process come 5.2 for the PvEer through PvE and PvP.

PvE:
1) Hit 90 and hope you have a 435 item level for heroics.
2) Buy a few 450 PvP pieces to get there if you are not. (yes, even in the pure PvE only way you still need PvP items)
3) Run heroics and...
a) Hope to get the dungeon you want, as you can only directly queue once a day.
b) Hope the item you want drops.
c) Hope you win the item you want that drops.
4) Rinse and repeat as needed, for hours or even days on end while working to get to a 460 item level to start the first set of LFRs.
5) Continue to run heroics for missing pieces and the LFRs and...
a) Hope you get lucky with the system giving you something.
b) Hope you get lucky with the coins, if you even have them, when the system does not give you something.
6) Rinse and repeat as needed, for hours, or even weeks as you can only run those LFRs once a week, while working to get to a 470 item level to do the next three LFRs.
7) Continue to run heroics and the 460 LFRs for missing pieces and the 470 LFRs and...
a) Hope you get lucky with the system giving you something.
b) Hope you get lucky with the coins, if you even have them, when the system does not give you something.
8) Try to earn some gold to buy some crafted pieces or BoEs of a higher item level so you can make it to 480 and the new LFRs.
9) Look back, now possibly many weeks later, and finally get to 480 item level to catch up with the current content at its lowest level, the LFR.
10) Look at all that wasted valor that you can spend on nothing unless you were grinding some reputations while doing all this as well.

Note: Remember that you only get loot if you win, which means you could run into wipe fests that leave you frustrated and with nothing to show for it.

PvP:
1) Pound battlegounds for honor and buy 476 gear with it and be ready for the original 5 LFRs instantly without ever needing to worry about the luck of drops.
2) Buy some conquest gear, you earned while grinding your honor and some craftables or BoEs and reach that 480 item level ready to roll with the current PvE content at its lowest level, the LFR.

Note: Unlike PvE where a crap group means you get nothing, at least you will still get honor even if you lose in PvP so even a horrible effort still helps gear you up, even if a little slower.

Now lets say you are new to 90 once 5.2 hits, which sounds nicer? Gearing up at will through running battlegrounds where you get honor win or lose or praying the loot god loves you and gearing up through heroics, many of them, where you get nothing when you get a bad group?

Bottom line is that blizzard wants people to PvP and they are doing it in a very subtle way, leaving up to us, the players, to notice that gearing up alts, or for new players, for PvE just became about PvPing and is no longer about PvEing.

Sure, you have the choice of still grinding reputations, and they do go by a lot faster now for people with alts and everyone should be at least honored with the klaxxi when they hit 90 if they enter the dread wastes as soon as they hit 89, even a first time player, so there will be at least one valor item they can buy without working on reputation really.

But unless you work reputations, you will have nothing to spend valor on, so earning it becomes useless, a waste, unless you convert it to conquest and buy some conquest gear with it, which will help you catch up in PvE. Amazing how the only quick way to catch up in PvE now is to work reputations or PvP and the PvP option is better. You can only get so much reputation in one day but you can grind from that first ding of 90 to full 476 gear in one day with PvP if you so wish.

So everyone out there that wants to gear up alts but does not want to do the reputation grind, dust off those old PvP skills, because the only easy way to gear up for PvE is through PvP.

I wonder how all these PvPers feel about the fact that PvEers will be PvPing just for the gear to get into PvE content. Will they look at it as free honor, or ruining their experience because blizzard is funneling all these unskilled, unmotivated, and uninterested people into PvP, into their world?

I know that come 5.2 I plan on gearing up all my alts I have not played with much yet, or have not hit 90 with yet, through PvP. Maybe I'll get lucky, one day running PvP to get my item level over 470, run the 5 older LFRs and hopefully get lucky, and then get into the new 480 item level LFR with a price of some crafted gear or some lucky drops and then be all caught up.

All caught up in one weekend, all thanks to PvP. There is no way you can do that with PvE. Yes, no doubt in my mind, blizzard wants you PvPing and they did an excellent job hiding that fact by locking out gear from new players that do not want to grind reputation. It was a subtle way to push them into PvP if they wanted their gear faster. Nice move blizzard, nice move.

Even if you did grind reputation, it still comes down to this, all 476 gear in one day through PvP or one 489/496 piece every two weeks grinding valor and reputation. It could help to boost item level even if you only get one piece every two weeks and the smart player will at least try to add that to the mix, but it is a boost to get to the new content, nothing more. PvP to gear up for PvE is just a better option. Hands down. The gear might be lesser item level wise, but it catches you up a lot quicker.

Shouldn't you need to PvE to get the best catch up gear for PvE quickly? Nope, you should PvP. Blizzard said so.

So while it may still be possible that the 450 ilvl pvp gear would be the better way to start (althought you replace it so quickly I'm not sure it worth investing the gold), reaching the 480 ilvl needed for 5.2 LFR will be I think far quicker through dungeon/LFR (and get you started on legendary quest)

Yes, they are lowering it from 483 to 476, hence the reason I said all 476 gear.

300 extra reputation is not going to help anyone get rep fast if that is all they do. Do you know how long it takes to get to revered if you only get 300 reputation per day? You still need to quest. PvP will still be faster.

Increase a 10% drop rate to 20% still means you will not be gearing up quickly. Not sure of the actual drop rates, but you still need to get into them to take advantage of that drop rate and PvP gear will get you into them faster.

The legendary quest part makes sense, nothing else does. All 476 gear from PvP and a few extra and you are caught up to new content. That is WAY faster then running tons for heroics/LFRs and grinding gear that you can only get at most 1 piece a week of (with the new reduced costs) and letting the RNG decide when you get gear.

"reaching the 480 ilvl needed for 5.2 LFR will be I think far quicker through dungeon/LFR"

From previous experience: no.

Looking at the current numbers: a thousand times no. Getting honor gear is TOO easy. You WILL get full 476 in a week through BGs. You absolutely WON'T get full 476 in a week through LFR, you'd have to get more than one drop from every single boss (16 pieces, do the math). Moreover, chances are, in a single week, you won't even be able to get into 460 LFR in the first place.

With some luck and lots of crafted gear and gold for BoEs, you can get 460 the second you hit 90. But outside of that, I agree. Most people, and definitely new players, will not even get close to 460 and the LFR unless they are really lucky with drops or buy a shit load of gold to buy the items.

Yes, you are right, unless Blizzard change something in their plans for 5.2, getting gear for PVE through PVP will be significantly easier than getting it through PVE. The only thing you are wrong is when you say that this is because Blizzard want people to PVP. They don't know what they want. They are repeating the same mistakes they did in previous patches (we had the exact same situation with Cata, for example, it was *MUCH* easier to up your ilvl by grinding honor gear through BGs than by doing heroics and raids, after the first patch). They are basically idiots, or behave like ones.

What PVP players think of PVE players going into BGs for easy gear? Yeah, these PVE'ers are more or less free frags, but since they are free frags on both sides, any fun you could have had from dominating these frags is easily stomped by your base getting capped by a single enemy despite being "guarded" by three or four semi-AFK'ing PVE'ers who get in all kinds of CC and don't care much anyway (not that I blame them, they don't want to be in BGs in the first place, they are just there for free honor). All this flurry of PVE'ers does is makes random BGs dumber.

Mind you, Blizzard shafts PVP'ers just as much as PVE'ers, too. Every single major patch they have several changes made in the name of balancing raid DPS or healing, which manage to fck PVP over like no tomorrow. That's in addition to their usual way of never thinking through what the PVP balance is going to be like with each new tier of PVP gear, etc.

I would very much like them to separate PVE at least from rated PVP by making PVP gear free, but only usable in rated PVP contexts (as in, you go into the arena, you wear the PVP set, the arena has ended, you unwear the PVP set and wear your PVE gear). I know quite a number of PVE people want the same. Why can't we have this? Because Blizzard think this splits (and so complicates) the game too much (it is ALREADY SPLIT, de-facto), and they think they can manage it all without splitting (LOL)...

I hope they change something. Like make the old valor gear no longer require reputation. That would be a start.

There is one difference with Cata however, yes the PvP gear was better than PvE gear at launch, but you had a lot more options to gear up quickly for PvE, now there are not options to gear up quickly for PvE. I get what you mean however, PvP gear has always been used as a stepping stone for PvE, but now is HAS to be used. Before it was just an option.

They really need to separate PvE from PvP, I agree and have said it a million times myself. They have the ability to do it, see CC, works for 1 minute on NPCs but 8 seconds on players. How about having all abilities have two working parts.

The one real issue is healing. It is hard to separate that. I hate healers and that is why the BG with the most healers wins. On my healers my win percentage was in the 80% range, on a damage dealer, 20%. All because the other side has healers.

Don't you hate working your ass off beating someone down for 20 or 30 seconds, you get them just within kill shot range, they are going down soon, and a healer comes by and in one heal they are max health again. Mother F'er.

That is why healing in PvP needs to be removed completely. Make it about killing each other and who can do that best. Remove all aspects of healing.

If they want to keep healing in PvP they need to put a blanket 90% healing reduction on all heals while in an arena or battlegound.

Just my opinion of course, and also the only character I would ever PvP on is a healer. With so much power why not.

Less than a month ago you were ranting and raving about how easy it is to get alts raid ready, how you were already set to go into LFR the first or second day that you hit 90. Because all of the 450 quests pieces, the justice gear, and the BoE.

Now all of the sudden it's so much harder? What happened?

I don’t agree though, I think if you had one person that ran BG's straight through, and a person that just did random heroics/LFR straight through they would get geared at about the same time no?

You are talking a fresh alt, with no pvp gear. So you will be of little to no help to your team in BG's.

I think the best idea now if you are in such a rush is to do both. Run your dungeons and if you are missing pieces that just won’t drop, or you can’t wait one more week to become raid ready (you know you don’t have to be raid ready on all your alts the first or second day 5.3 drops)then run some BG/Arenas to fill in off pieces.

Also, in no way shape or form is Blizz forcing you to PvP, or making you choose. You're the one forcing yourself to be raid ready that day or week of 5.3. That a decision that you are making not one that you are getting forced on you. You could do the LFR's/Heroics buy the BoE's, Do the world bosses, and be raid ready in a day to a week.

As for how it is easy now and hard later, it is that once you hit 460, you are ready to raid now, which is easy if you know what you are doing.

When 5.2 comes out, when you hit 460, you now have to start working your way up. You are NOT ready for raiding. There is an easy way to 460, there is no easy way to 480. But as I mentioned, there is an easy way to 476.

Why do you see it as ranting and raving? I am pointing out that it is easier to gear up for raiding though PvP. That is not a complaint or a rant of any sort as much as a statement of fact to help new players and alts gear up.

Do you think a fresh alt with no PvP gear will actually give a shit about being a benefit to their team? Hell no.

I might care, you might care, many people might care, but the majority of the player base doesn't. They are there for their loots, nothing more and win or lose they get honor.

The basic idea is this...

What is the quickest way to gear up for PvE? Through PvP.

So yes, it is forcing, IF (capped for emphasis) you want to do it the most time and effort efficient way.

Be it bagging out 20 battlegounds in one day or one a day over three weeks. Time and energy spent to return on your time and energy investment, PvP gear is best. So IF you want to gear for PvE effectively, you are forced to do PvP.

OMG Grumpy, I don't know what sets you off, but these last few days, I tell you what- I am grateful. Reading what you are going on about is teaching me things I haven't been paying attention too - both explaining at what is going on and how to possible come back from it. I pvp'ed a time or two and learned it is not my cup of tea (I don't even like dueling).

What is the significance [ok, I am making up or the spelling of words here, just bear with me] of forcing anyone to pvp? I mean, if I want to pvp, I would be playing one of those FTP mmo's, not wow or I would be on a dang pvp server and not a pve.

Why does Blizzrat and the gnomes behind it, think I want to pvp? Is there a way to really to send these goombah's email that not everyone wants to pvp? Or is this something that they can't believe customers don't want to do?

If there was a good email address that I knew was being looked at by blizzy, I would be sending them email.

BTW, have you seen or found out how much blizzard wants to sell us the farm that we worked so hard on in 5.2? I would like to know. I would bet, it will be too expensive for the average person to buy.

I think their reasoning is that at last report only 7% raided, including LFR and over 30% PvP. So they figure that PvP is a more popular thing and if people like it more maybe making a few more people test the waters might make even more people happy.

While I do not like PvP really myself I see why they work toward that. If you own a business with many people doing many things, where you you put your effort most? Keeping 7% of them happy or keeping 30% of them happy? Amusing that you can not do both all the time of course.

I do like to PvP sometimes, but I do not like feeling as if I have to.

For me they made 2 errors here. 1) I PvP when I am done doing all my PvE stuff. I play A LOT and I am not even close to finished with my PvE stuff, I could imagine 90% or more of the population is in the same boat. I like having content but this is a little much. I can't PvP when I have other things to do. 2) PvP is such a rude atmosphere, and they do nothing to stop these people from insulting everyone that does not do things their way. It is bad in random PvE content, very bad, but it is 100 times worse in PvP. Why would anyone want to be part of that environment?

As for the farm, have not heard yet. I too and interested to see what it will be.

I agree entirely. Someone should tell Blizzard that this is the consequence of slowing down PVE catchup...people will turn to PVP instead. They did it in BC and they will do it again.

I don't know if it will be easy to do the honor grind, as pvp is quite miserable for myself as I don't like it, but it will certainly be easier than lfr which can only be run once a week. Unless, of course, this droprate buff is something extreme, like guaranteed loot off every boss and a chance at bonus loot.

I'm starting to think they should just ditch itemlevels and make all gear add either pvp power or raid power, and just add more each tier. It would be lame, but when 5.2 hits we'll already have more itemlevel inflation in MoP than we had in Cataclysm.

* Check out Tol Barad / Wintergrasp. If there is a lot of people doing these on your server, do them as well whenever they are up. Be sure to take the weekly quests. With a lot of people fighting each other, it feels much like LFR, where you are just a small part of the action. No responsibility, etc. You all die or wipe the enemy together.

* Do only Alterac Valley / Isle of Conquest, doubly so if they are a PVP holiday. Same reason as above: lots of people, no responsibility. If the PVP holiday is something else, you might try doing that. If you don't like it, simply return to doing 40-man BGs, they give good honor even without holidays. The toughest BG with a holiday is going to be Warsong Gulch, only do it if you are feeling adventurous. :-)

The stat increases are a little insane, make that a lot insane. One one character I went into a dungeon as soon as I hit 90 and did 20K, came out and got a few 450 pieces, which were not a huge upgrade at all, and did another and did 35K. All for such a tiny stat allotment. Things are completely out of control and out of line stat wise in my opinion.

I really question why we need two sets of gear anyways. Just put pvp power/resilience on all gear or make it baseline for your lvl or ilvl. Everyone uses the same gear. Combine justice/honor and combine valor/conquest. Then just balance it so that it's equally slow/fast to get gear doing PvP or PvE.

I agree. Not sure I like the idea of different gear, never have really. It makes no sense but I guess that it because they do not want to mix things so PvPers feel the need they have to PvE and the same the other way around.

They also know that if they made it all the same, they would be giving people a super easy route to gear for PvE. No need to down bosses, go into a few battle grounds and tada, you have all the BiS raid gear if they were all the same gear.

People on the forums would cry like babies because they will not be "special" any more because they got their raid gear in a raid because someone got it from PvPing which is a lot easier to gear up in.

That's the thing. Blizz would have to balance it so that it's not easier to get gear one way or the other.

They'd also have to go with all gear being crafted/purchased so that it was balanced. You don't loot other players to get epics... :)

I'd really like to see a survey when I logged in asking for my opinions about these things in the game. Make it a meaningful survey that takes a few minutes to fill out and give everyone a pet for answering the survey to encourage as many people as possible to answer the questions and then publish the results. Let's see what the community really has to say. Because I really don't think Blizzard knows what their player base would really like. Only so much can be gleaned from the vocal minority on the forums and from in-game statistics. I mean they say that only a small portion of players even have max level characters, let alone do rated pvp or raid...

I think one of the reasons that PvP is so big in the game is that it rewards failure. You can get great gear even if you are bad. Hence the reason 30% PvP and only 7% raid, even at its easiest level. People like that they do not need to be good to get gear.

So with that said, they would need to make it that you need to win to get points to buy gear in PvP and that would DESTROY participation in PvP because most people like the catch up mechanic that even if you are not good you can still gear up, even if it is slower.

you hit the nail on the head - if only 30% pvp and 7% raid, why in sam hill is blizzard with 5.2 going crazy and forcing me (one of the 70%) to PVP? And for raiding, why does it seem that Blizzard is creating new end game for that 7% and not for the other 93%? (If that 7% left the game, it would not be a big lost.). I tell ya why - because that 30% or 7% are the loudest. Here, have some Gouda and wheat thin crackers with it.

@Grumpy It's not just the reward for failure thing. You can do pvp at any level, unlike raiding, it doesn't take long (usually a lot less than a LFR) and you don't have to get involved with other people. It doesn't require much, either, to do a battleground. No item level, no one will laugh at your dps. Sure, there'll be rage for mistakes, but that happens everywhere. I think most raiders also pvp, at least for the achievements. How many pvp-ers do RBGs though? Should be a lot less than raiders.

@Roo What would the game be without raids? Kill the big bad in some dungeons or in some quest, on your own?

I agree James. But I still think you have to enjoy PvP at least to some extent to gear up that way. Sure it can be done much easier than raiding but if you don't like doing it how long do you think people will put up with it before they just say screw it and quit?

I do not know the RBG numbers but I would guess you are raid. RBGs are like raids for PvPers, and I am sure there are a lot less of them.

To Roo's defense a little.

There is a lot to the game you do not need anyone for. It is actually some of the most relaxing stuff to do also. Solo player games have much more success than multi player games and that is for that exact reason. Warcraft would do well to take a page out of that book and keep things more solo based with the option of group content. I think it would be best for them in terms of growth.

I know that if I needed to be grouped 24/7 when I played I would have never made it to level 10. I would have quit. I do not play games to make friends, I play game to play games. Group content is optional.

Where do you get your "7% of people raid including Lfr" pretty sure I've seen dev posts that its much higher. A quick google search had mmo champs showing 30% of people did dragon soul Lfr and that was published just a few months after Lfr was released...

He said toward the end of cata that 7% of max level characters have at least finished the LFR version of dragon soul and called that a great success.

I don't know about you, but when less then 50% of people even have max level characters, and when people like myself had over 10 that did it, and he is only saying 7% of max level characters finished it on its lowest level, that would have to mean less then 3% actually raid.

I just say 7% to be generous. It is not a made up number however, it is the next ghostcrawler said himself.

I don't see how that's possible. Maybe 30% of players with a max lvl toon tried LFR in Cata.

I remember seeing a post that a large portion of players don't even have max level characters.

If we look at RealmPop for the US (it's biased to auctioneers/guilds so the it probably overestimates the % of higher lvls a little bit), there are just under 1.7M lvl 90 characters. If there are 2.5M subscribers in the US, that's 68% having a max lvl toon. That's not considering people like Grumpy who have 6 max lvl toons... Let's say the average is only 2 max lvl toons per player, then only 34% of players have max lvl toons and I doubt that every single one of them runs LFR.

PvP can be done at any lvl. Raiding is max lvl only, so just because of that it will be significantly less popular than PvP.

I can't seem to find any posts to back up your numbers at all and I've been looking. Please post a link. In fact I remember seeing posts from GC saying that LFR participation was a lot larger then what your claiming here of course I can't find them either which is why I'm super curios to see where your getting your data. I can't find anything backing up your 7% at the end of cata BTW.

You can feel free to disagree and disbelieve me if you wish. I know that 7% is accurate because I have been talking about it here since the day ghostcrawler posted it. I even had a post saying how I did not believe the 7% number and thought it was a lot less.

The only solid number I could find is him saying that 2.5M characters finished the LFR. Now that might be 25% of the player base IF everyone had one character, but people like me that completed it on 11 characters throws that number off completely. Heck, in my guild alone there are at least 5 players that completed it on at 8 or more characters.

So even if that number is all you have, that means 2.5M characters, NOT subscribers, finished looking for raid.

Being that is the only number I can find you decided what they means. I will think of it as the average player completed DS LFR on 3 characters, which means 8.3%. So even at a complete guess, 7% seems reasonable.

We need new data. Until we have new data, that is all I have to roll with sadly.

And saying 2.5 million characters gives the FALSE impression that 25% of the player base has done it.

My 7%, even if I can not find it, is more accurate then letting people believe 25% of the player base did it.

Even if I read or remember wrong, saying I "read 7% somewhere" is a lot better then having to explain that 2.5M characters does not mean 2.5M subscribers every time I posted it for people that can not understand there is a huge difference between characters and subscribers.

What would you believe 2.5M characters means subscriber wise? Not asking for facts, just opinion.

If neither of us can find numbers, that is all we have to go on now as that seems to be all we can agree with being said.

If you want a better # you could probably get from mmo champs the amount of level 90 characters since that's a known quantity thanks to the armory. then divided how many characters have completed raid finder by the amount of level 90 characters. This has the quality that dividing characters by characters instead of characters by subscribers ( I know you were dividing characters by characters but you were using a made up # before hand that is of no use to us when trying to think about these things. now you will have an accurate % of all level 90 characters. I know your more interested in subscribers let me posit this when talking about raiding do the subscribers that wont ever max a character really matter? I actuality think a this % of level 90 characters # would be of more use because its going to already remove the people that have no interest in ever getting max level and doing end game things by not precluding these non max level subscribers we would be working with another # that doesn't really mean anything. more to your point if you said X % of level 90 characters have completed raid finder by putting that level 90 part in you make the reader switch to thinking about characters and not subscribers.

That would work in the effort of interest, but it would also be an amazingly high number.

I have 7 max level characters, only 4 have done raid finder, the others might get there some day, but that would mean me alone would unbalance the results.

I would not be surprised if the number of characters that did raid finder at max level is at or close to 50%. But that would not even be remotely close to anything accurate.

Remember, less than half the subscribers even had a max level character at the end of cataclysm. So if less then 50% have a max level character it is impossible for 50% to have finished the raid.

It would still be an interesting number to see. But I want to see subscribers. Characters do not matter, people like me screw up those numbers, sorry. Subscribers do matter when taking about who they should aim content at.

Even if I dislike PvP, subscriber wise, that is where they should focus. I might not like it, but I can understand it.

Just because I like to raid doesn't mean I think everything should be designed for me. A very small percentage raid and a very small percentage of development should be spent on it because of that.

if 50% of people aren't even interested in getting to 90 they aren't interested in any of the things happening at 90. PVP, raiding, daily's, farm, that's why its good to not wring your hands over subscribers. if 50% of the population is happy just questing then they should just spend there time making more and more quests (which arguably they probably do IE expansions) My point is since you don't know and can't know one of the numbers you need to find out the % of subscribers that raid unless blizzard gives you that # which they haven't it is of no use to make up a # use real data and real #'s to make up your arguments. Don't fox news us.

Have you completely lost your mind? You are saying I want to fox news you because I want real numbers? Apparently you do not know what that means.

Sit down and good old grumpy will teach you the difference.

Let me explain the difference between me (real data) and you (fox news).

You:You want to count only people already 90 and on multiple character and raiding. So your numbers will be skewed as it is only asking a tiny portion of the people. Just like fox news will only ask republicans what they think about hot topics and pass it off as this is how all people think.

Me.I want to count everyone, because everyone matters even if they are not 90.

Thinking anyone under 90 is a second class citizen or anyone not raiding does not matter just stinks of fox news mentality. If you aren't with us you are against us.

If you want to think that the only people that matter are the people that are already 90, feel free to.

If you want to believe that because I did something on 4 characters it should count 4 times, feel free too.

You can play any game you want with the numbers, feel free to, but that does not make them right.

What you are right about is saying we will never know certain numbers unless they tell us. But that does not mean we can't speculate on the numbers we do have.

So back the beginning. The last solid number we have is 2.5M characters have finished DS in LFR.

Now speculate. Because that is all we can do.

And I speculate that the 7% number I can swear I read somewhere even that I can not find it, seems about right when looking at the 2.5M number of people that completed it.

At least I can reasonable explain why I believe that number, true or not.

The rep on gear requirement was announced on 1/10 and the 458 one on 2/10.

My question is - why hurry up with gear? PvP one week and get all geared up in 476 for? You know why I find this odd? Becuase if we need a new player for our normal / heroic raids, we get them all the crafted gear, run them through LFR once and then gear them up in the actual raid. We're doing that right now actually - we lost our mage so we're making gear for one of the guildies (was lvl 78 yesterday) so she can take the mage spot immediately. From this pov, a new 90 is raid ready in a couple of hours, while not really sure how long it would take if doing it only through pvp.

Why? Because I like to have everyone raid ready, so if a pug pops up, I have characters that can run it. If we need another tank or healer or whatever for a second group, I have one ready. So when I want to play I am ready to play.

I don't want to have to do the build up all over again and waste time just to catch up to being able to play. I see no reason to add a second tier of leveling. Level 1-90 then level in gear? Nope, I just want to be ready to play when I reach the end level.

I do not mind a grind or a week or so, but if you really will still need to work reputation and work random drops, etc, it could take weeks, even a month or more to gear an alt to catch up and that is if you are lucky.

I do not level a character to get to 90 and do nothing because I do not have time to do that all again on an alt.

I love mists, do not get my wrong. I think the expansion was designed for people like me in mind, people with a fair amount of free time to give us things to keep us busy.

I do not mind the weeks of grinding on my main. I do not want to have to do that on every single character I bring up however.

If my character needs a lock I want to be able to level my lock this weekend and be raid ready on tuesday. I do not want it to be a major long process because it is an alt. It should not be one.

There are many other things to do in game. I have a few friends that are on nearly daily and do neither.

Admittedly I do not know a great deal of them but then again I do not float in those circles as I raid. That is the same reason I do not know a great deal of serious PvPers, they are not in the same gaming circle as I am.

I guess a lot just hang out with friends, level, do dungeons, maybe role play.