There's really no reason why wood elves should be in Mordheim. Protecting Loren by going to Mordheim is ludicrous and wood elves don't care about forests that are not their home. I especially don't like idea of dryads and even more treekin. Mordheim is not a forest and forest spirits are linked with forest which they don't leave at all. The same with spites. They are all local creatures.btw

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Dryads are the peaceful spirits of the forest. However, when angered they can become a force to reckonwith and they will fight fanatically to death for the preservation of the forest.

That's your background. In wood elves army book however:

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Dryads are spiteful and deadly creatures with hearts akin to shards of ice.In the soul of the dryad there's neither room nor regard for compasion or mercy...

Besides:MAgic is too powerfull and easySpites are almost uselesGlade Guard are well priced with reasonable statsWaywatchers are waaaaay too powerful for teir costDryads and Treekin shouldn't get experienceSpecial skills are too powerful (mostly) but I really like that "plants knowledge"

1- 55 for waywatchers is enough if I compare them to the shadow elves henchmen. I should give a extra -1 to hit penalty for running & shooting however.2- Most special skills are took from other warbands so I guess they are right (fey quickness, infiltration, sniper, graceful strength).

Still, I consider your comments as welcome... you're right about almost everything.

Shadow Elves are also Over Powered so using them as a comparison is fine if you keep this in mind.

Sniper skill is one of there main problems... That skill is insane... It may not be bad on a warband with limited range shooters but still would need a nerf to only apply to short range weapons (blow guns for example). Easier just to drop the skill.

Waywatchers compared to Shadow Elves henchemen. It may not be bad but I would say the SE's henchmen were too good too.

On the "fluff" of why wood Elves would be in Mordheim (or any place outside of there native woods) is all up to the player. I have never been found of people restricting what warband you can play based on what they think fits fluff wise. As Lord of Lustria said, there are pleanty of reasons they could be there. With all the death and destruction including plants maybe an older tree was there and there was a link between it and a Dryad back home or something (my wood elf knowlage isn't great). Maybe some one stole an artifact from them and there hunting party lead them to Mordheim in the hopes of returnning it. Where there is a will to make the fluff fit there is a way.

Also regarding fluff don't forget that Mordheim is a game system and not just a city. There are more reasons why a wood elf warband might be in an Empire in Flames campaign which is still the game of Mordheim. I also agree with Pervavita that fluff should never be a reason to reject a warband unless a very specific campaign is being run and even then I'd still be inclined to be flexible. The goal is fun more than fluff.

For balance it is best to compare to official warbands as these are generally well balanced. There are no elf s that are official so you need to compare to other types. Elves would be a top tier warband so use dwarfs as a guide but I recommend also comparing to human mercenaries. Maybe write down a sample starting warband and compare to a sample starting warband for Osterlanders (which start with a large henchman also). Compare stats and number of warriors in both warbands just to get a feel. That obviously won't cover everything in balance but will give you a base 'feel' for your warband rules.

Elves are notoriously difficult to develop (there are endless threads here dedicated to them), or at least because most have been based in some part on the Shadow Warrior list, which has numerous problems.

As RL mentioned, it might be better to compare with an existing warband considered to be balanced or of course modify it.

Reiklanders have the shooty side, the Horned Hunters (from Nemesis Crown) have the nature aspect or anything that seems similar in play style.

There are some better received elf warbands on the forum, so have a good trawl through all of them for running themes and a general sense of how they operate.

A few pointers:

Elves (as with most elder forces) are an 'elite' warband, in general this means a max of four starting heroes and warband size of 12.Deviating far from the human 'standard' is ill-advised without tangible restrictions and/or 'disproportionate' cost.The latter is especially true of starting abilities. Everyone can get nasty down the line, but too much too soon will leave you too powerful out of the gate and others may not be able to catch up.

Personally, M5 and I4 is a good basic elf advantage over humans (for a cost of about 30gc compared with 25gc for a basic human henchman). Modify from there.

I think that M5 is a good advantage but a high initiative and high leadership aren't so much an advantage. Dwarves and orcs are stronger than elves with their T4 and the rule that protect them from concussion(for dwarves).

Personnaly, I never understood why people states that shadow elves are overpowered. Ok, they shoot well, jump, climb, and strike first... but they have a limited access to strength skills (the best in my opinion) and bows arent the best ranged weapons with their S3... in a campaign they get quickiy underpowered.

One of my friend was playing them in a campaign and I always won against him with my Restless dead warband after the two first encounters (wich I lost). I just had to use the zombie pack tactic and corner him. Elves are not so tough in Hand-to-hand combat (no resilients, no mighty blows, no pit fighters...). My friend was constantly angered by the fact that it was rather rare to put OOA with bows and against zombies/undeads that stand up fast (no pain) it was a real source of frustration for him.

Sniper is annoying, yes, but its not impossible to ''uncover'' the ennemies so he lose his hidden status by getting close to him or by getting them in LOS. Also, we play it so that the target can make an I test to detect the shooter.

Maybe my friend was not a good tactician or something but for me, they are not overpowered... maybe a bit stronger than a mercenary warband but way under orcs and dwarves.

Ok you just described skaven verminkin for 30gc (and +2LD). I think it's not the way.

Got a point, though as with anything there are other factors. That -2 Ld wouldn't be so bad if the Adept had the same Ld as most other leaders. Skaven are less likely to need to roll for All Alone so plays less there. More important for fear tests too.

I would have thought that M5 itself would be worth +5gc, but I guess not quite.

Goglutin wrote:

Dwarves and orcs are stronger than elves with their T4 and the rule that protect them from concussion(for dwarves).

Dwarves also have M3, which can be crippling, especially in objective based games.Orcs have Animosity, which can be a huge detriment when you have a large warband, you essentially loose control of at least one model each turn.

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Personnaly, I never understood why people states that shadow elves are overpowered. Ok, they shoot well, jump, climb, and strike first... but they have a limited access to strength skills (the best in my opinion) and bows arent the best ranged weapons with their S3... in a campaign they get quickiy underpowered.

Shooting is usually king in Mordheim, the S3 bows are more than made up for by the higher BS and shooting skills.The basic henchmen get +1 M, WS, BS, +3 Int and +1 Ld, all for 10gc. Excellent Sight means they can spot people on anything but a 6 within 12".

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One of my friend was playing them in a campaign and I always won against him with my Restless dead warband after the two first encounters (wich I lost). I just had to use the zombie pack tactic and corner him. Elves are not so tough in Hand-to-hand combat (no resilients, no mighty blows, no pit fighters...). My friend was constantly angered by the fact that it was rather rare to put OOA with bows and against zombies/undeads that stand up fast (no pain) it was a real source of frustration for him.

How he let you corner you let alone get into combat I have no idea.

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Sniper is annoying, yes, but its not impossible to ''uncover'' the ennemies so he lose his hidden status by getting close to him or by getting them in LOS.

You have to get very close indeed or flank them completely, both are quite unlikely in the beginning.

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Also, we play it so that the target can make an I test to detect the shooter.

Now imagine you don't have that house rule.

Lets look at some other stuff:

Runestones. This protects the whole warband, not just the weaver. It's a massive advantage against any magic armed warband.The whole warband can have elven cloaks. Too pricey to give the whole lot at the start, but if you find more, you can still give them to henchmen.The Standard.You can begin the campaign with a warhorn.

Personnaly, I never understood why people states that shadow elves are overpowered. Ok, they shoot well, jump, climb, and strike first... but they have a limited access to strength skills (the best in my opinion) and bows arent the best ranged weapons with their S3... in a campaign they get quickiy underpowered.

Excactly,exactly. Look at the beastmen: They (gors) are M5 WS4 T4 (I say that T4 is the best) with rest of human stats (excl. LD) for 35. 3 of their heroes got orc warboss's profiles with better movement (less LD) and can take as many warhounds (with M7) as they want. They are also official.Shadow Warriors may have good stats and are shooting focused but have acces only to bows. Their cc weapon section is limited to 3 weapons which are sword, spear and gw. This makes ther high personel cost even higher (unless someone goes on daggers). Shooting is less efective than cc in Mordheim and if you'r fighting against T4 army such as orcs, beastmen or dwarves you need to be lucky with shooting. They are effective against T3 warbands excluding skaven who are as fast as elves and almost twice as cheap (with I4).

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Sniper is annoying, yes, but its not impossible to ''uncover'' the ennemies so he lose his hidden status by getting close to him or by getting them in LOS. Also, we play it so that the target can make an I test to detect the shooter.

That's also official ruling. (MA2002)

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Runestones. This protects the whole warband, not just the weaver. It's a massive advantage against any magic armed warband.The whole warband can have elven cloaks. Too pricey to give the whole lot at the start, but if you find more, you can still give them to henchmen.The Standard.You can begin the campaign with a warhorn.

Ok but that equipment is so expensive that it's not even considered. Runestone is cool but costs entire (average) exploration profit. Elven cloaks are even more expensive and equipping entire warband with them is impossible (even heroes). Warhorn is really no need for elves.

Spells have been tweaked down.Treekin/dryads do not get xp.Treekin tweaked down a bit.Tweaked down some special skills.Waywatchers have an extra -1 to hit modifier when running.Flavor text changed for the dryads.

comparing the shadow elves stats directly to the stats of a Gor isn't accurate. You have more then this to consider. Look also at equipment list.Shadow Elves have range well the Beastmen do not.

now the argument for or against shooting/H2H being better is another thing all together. Probably the best two warbands to compare H2H vs Shooting in Mordheim in terms of value is Reiklanders vs Middenheimers. These two warbands are as close to eachother as you will get rule wise.Reik have BS 4 Henchmen well Midden have S4 heroes.

Most games in that set up you will see the Reik win as they can force a rout test before H2H starts (and as you said it is usually better to rout when the chance comes).Granted cover can play a big part, but so can elivation and Reiklanders are not bad in H2H ether.

Now you can say "but Shadow Elves don't have x-bows" and "Gor's are T4"Yes I know all this. I am simply pointing out the argument of H2H vs Shooting in what is the best example of the two verses each other.

Take the above situation though of Beastmen vs SE's. Shadow Elves get up in buildings early... as they are off the ground floor you have just negated 1 Beastmen hero and all hounds. This will also allow there shooters to start picking targets and not be restricted to the closest so a screen will only provide moving cover not arrow catchers. BS 4 will lead idealy to hit on a 3+ (more then 66% hits). Armed with an Elf Bow (all SE's can start with this) this gives a range of 36"-18" at no long range.Long Range and Cover = hitting at 5+ (33% hits). With this and range you are going to see a few hits each turn if the SE player set up well to cover a lot of ground. S3 vs T4 = 5+ to wound... or 33% chance to wound. So based on move 5 you will cover 10" each turn idealy and say you keep to cover with most your models you will probably see 2-3 arrows fired at you the first turn your in range and 1 hit knocking down one of your guys (we will say stunned cut the diffrence). Now you got one guy slowed up.Next round you get closer and are still at long Range you see the same result and another guy is behind.round 3 of shooting you now are in short range upping the hits you take (50% chance of hit) and so now lets say 3 hits and 1 OOA. Next turn again you move forward and are still in close Range (couldn't close the gap to enter H2H) and thus another OOA.So 2 are OOA before H2H starts and 2 of your warband are a few turns back on the charge. In addition to all this 1 Hero is useless and if you did use hounds they are useless too (unless an elf falls... 16% chance of that if wounded). End result is now the Beastmen have to climb up to enter H2H combat and yes are better then the Elves in H2H can still take losses due to the SE high WS (4), High I (6), meaning that chances are the elves may be able to stand toe to toe for at least a round allowing for more sniper rounds to pick off your hounds (now you got to rout).

Am I saying this is how it will always go? nope but thats how the math comes out looking. SE have huge advantages over other warbands and that is the reason it was officaly pulled from the offical list.And SE's do have accsess for 2 heroes to strength skills so 2 heroes can enter H2H combat later in the game and be forces all on there own.

even if you don't agree with what I am saying as far as balance goes it doesn't change the previous statement that if your going to make a warband it should be made and balanced to the offical warbands. There is a reason SE's are not offical even if you didn't see it in your games with your friend... he may have had bad rolls with them or just sucked with them not knowing how best to play them/you out played him by a lot.

Regarding your logic (statistics indeed) a beastmen at long range have only 1/9 (so 1/27 to be OOA) to be put down by an arrow and raise up to 2/9 on closer range ( so 2/27 to put OOA) and that doesnt count armour, skills, movements and cover.

Tough my gaming experience told me to never trust dices, as an overall you can judge tactical efficiency with statistics.

It doesnt seems much to me to have a so low chance to disable an ennemy... and remember, elves are quality over quantity.

my numbers were avoiding skills and equipment that comes later in the game (armour, hunting arrows, poisons, ext).Also yes a 1/27 of OOA from 1 arrow. With that you will see say 9 arrows being shot each turn. That is 1 wounded... 33% OOA. It will be 2 turns with in this range so 66% chance one model goes down. But obviously Beastmen will try to take cover and in order to do this they may not move there full distance straight forward. So for the sake of argument I will say they have cover from most arrows each turn but are able to go straight forward at full speed (10"). This means 2 full turns at long Range. In that time 2 models will be shot down (but Not OOA) thus slowing just those models).Now 2 turns at close range= 50% to hit and still 1/3 to wound. Or 1/6 wound or 1/18 OOA.With two turns in Close Range and say 3 arrows shot each turn like this you will see 1 guy go OOA.Obviously dice can mean more before this or durring this phase or none OOA. But still this is the most ideal (realistic) situation for the Beastmen and that is there warband reaches the elves lossing 1 model with at least 2 more a turn or two behind the rest of the warband. Also they are lacking in 1 hero can not fight (can't climb buildings) and any hounds are also useless. Now the Beastmen have to climb up to enter combat. In any regard I would say the SE's have the edge here as there stats do put them nearly on par in H2H with the beastmen and they have already inflicted some loss on the Beastmen and odds are can bring down a Beastmen or two forcing the rout check and beastmen are not known for high Ld stats.

in any regard this is just throwing numbers around. The end result of all this is that SE's have a great shooting phase and have been ruled unoffical due to being too strong. You can negate many of there advantages in game but it is hard to do and odds are they will counter if in the hands of some one good to regain those advantages.