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Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Ubiq

Again, the idea that people in the United States were universally gung-ho about invading Iraq is so out of touch with reality that it's insulting. Especially your insistence that people here on this forum would have done so.

I remember a certain South Park episode which satirized the split opinion in the United States at that time in a very entertaining way...

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Insanely wrong lol wtf. Where did I give off that impression?

I have no friggin clue, but your stance to usually be behind the Democratic party in a bunch of stuff made me think you were more of a centrist Third Way guy, which is where the party usually ends up since the 90s. Nothing wrong with voting that way, free speach and all. So, Nordic Social-democracy, then?

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Indeed leave it to the two cowards behind South Park to champion smug neutrality in any given circumstance.

I don't remember the episode that well, but seriously, could you explain what was wrong with it? I felt the issue was presented rather fairly if you want to include both sides. At least in the American debate. And the American debate was not only on the side of the "War promoters", which was the point Ubiq was trying to raise.

Just to clarify, I personally think that the 2003 Iraq War was a really, really stupid idea.

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon

why wouldn't they be? the biggest muslin terrorist attack happened before the war.

You can't compare the size of an attack with the widespread anti-american/anti-west feeling in the world. There has been way way way more terrorist attacks after the Iraq war.
It's not because the biggest attack happened before the war, that the Iraq war was a success. On the contrary, it has been a disaster. The US basically poured oil on fire

If you invade a country and fuck them over for years and years, it's going to create resentment. Every politicians who think about long term policies know that. Unfortunately, Bush didn't give a shit and was only interested about enriching himself and his friends.

idk Saddam was always a warmonger i don't think he will pass an opportunity to dominate the region, and if an Iraqi revolution happened the situation would much worse than it is now so really not having the Iraq war wouldn't improve much.

Honestly, the problem is that you're making it sound like the Iraq war has had the least worst consequences among any other imaginable scenario

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Chrior

I have no friggin clue, but your stance to usually be behind the Democratic party in a bunch of stuff made me think you were more of a centrist Third Way guy, which is where the party usually ends up since the 90s. Nothing wrong with voting that way, free speach and all. So, Nordic Social-democracy, then?

You don't move the Overton Window by voting for people who have no power. You move it by moving the actually relevant and existent left (such as it is) further that direction, and actually allowing it power in the first place.
Instead of pissing your vote down vanity projects like the American Green Party, while the damn near literal fascists gain power in the meantime.

Meanwhile? My opinion on libertarians? They're insanely naive cultists who have turned an inanimate form of societal energy with benefits and dangers (like say fire, electricity, nuclear power) called capitalism, into a religion where capitalism is a benevolent god that we must hold in awe and respect and never besmirch.
They are the equivalent of some caveman moron insisting that the fire in the cave be allowed to spread indiscriminately rather than kept firmly controlled in a rock pit.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

Originally Posted by Big Black Hole

I don't remember the episode that well, but seriously, could you explain what was wrong with it? I felt the issue was presented rather fairly if you want to include both sides. At least in the American debate. And the American debate was not only on the side of the "War promoters", which was the point Ubiq was trying to raise.

Just to clarify, I personally think that the 2003 Iraq War was a really, really stupid idea.

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Tell that to the ruling class of the old lowland South, who were extremely wealthy.

Slavery certainty makes the slave holders wealthy. But what we are talking about is development and the economy as a whole. just because the nobles of a feudal society are rich doesn't mean that feudalism is a good economic system.

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon

Slavery certainty makes the slave holders wealthy. But what we are talking about is development and the economy as a whole. just because the nobles of a feudal society are rich doesn't mean that feudalism is a good economic system.

Re: European Politics Thread

Honestly, the problem is that you're making it sound like the Iraq war has had the least worst consequences among any other imaginable scenario

Well not any imaginable scenario but from the ones stated, probably.

Also I like to clarify that I do think the Iraq war is bad, but:
1-I don't think it was as disastrous for the region as you think.
2-I believe Saddam deserved what happened to him.
3-I don't think america went there to get rich or for any geopolitical interest it was just a bunch of neocons taking advantage of the circumstances to live out their fantasies of being saviors of an oppressed people.

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Monkey King

You don't move the Overton Window by voting for people who have no power. You move it by moving the actually relevant and existent left (such as it is) further that direction, and actually allowing it power in the first place.
Instead of pissing your vote down vanity projects like the American Green Party, while the damn near literal fascists gain power in the meantime.

Meanwhile? My opinion on libertarians? They're insanely naive cultists who have turned an inanimate form of societal energy with benefits and dangers (like say fire, electricity, nuclear power) called capitalism, into a religion where capitalism is a benevolent god that we must hold in awe and respect and never besmirch.
They are the equivalent of some caveman moron insisting that the fire in the cave be allowed to spread indiscriminately rather than kept firmly controlled in a rock pit.

Well, that's certainly true. I never meant to say that voting for a third party in the USA was the best option to promote a more leftist oriented agenda, since the duopoly there essentially renders all other parties meaningless. Save a collapse of the traditional system like what happened in France in the last elections, but that doesn't seem likely anytime soon. It's just that the establishment Democrats have become so damn accomodated and arrogant towards all other opinions from even inside their own party that it has reached annoying levels. Since I don't want to contaminate this thread with an American discussion, I will just ask a quick question. This has turned into enough of a shitfest already. What's your take on the recent victories for young social democrats in the primaries, like Ocasio-Cortez? Do you think we're witnessing a significant shift to the left in democratic voting patterns or are they rather isolated developments?

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon

2-I believe Saddam deserved what happened to him.

Wow, and hell with the innocent millions living with him on the same land?

Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon

3-I don't think america went there to get rich or for any geopolitical interest it was just a bunch of neocons taking advantage of the circumstances to live out their fantasies of being saviors of an oppressed people.

I am speechless to read this. So these people hate their own people and oppress them but the lake to save some far away barbarians? By creating one of the biggest lies? And these neocons, have no interest to help their allies in the region? Wow...

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Where were we attempting to say it was a good economic system lol.

My initial point was that slavery isn't good for the development of an economy and you used the southern ruling class as a counter example.
My feudalism comment was to show that that's absurd. I know you don't think it's a good system.

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Ubiq

Link the polls in question so I can see the crosstabs for it.

Again, the idea that people in the United States were universally gung-ho about invading Iraq is so out of touch with reality that it's insulting. Especially your insistence that people here on this forum would have done so.

Re: European Politics Thread

It's just that the establishment Democrats have become so damn accomodated and arrogant towards all other opinions from even inside their own party that it has reached annoying levels.

This is both true, and also way overblown.

What's your take on the recent victories for young social democrats in the primaries, like Ocasio-Cortez? Do you think we're witnessing a significant shift to the left in democratic voting patterns or are they rather isolated developments?

I think we're seeing what we saw with Republicans during the Obama era. The rise of our own Tea Party equivalent, minus astro-turfing and insanity.

Re: European Politics Thread

Let's hope that comes to pass and we can see the birth of a big influencing group within the Democrats that can steer the party a bit to the left back again. There needs to be some equilibrium in the political spectrum and that has been lost since the 80s/90s with the switch to the right in most Western countries. Not to mention the nearly wiping out of social-democrats throughout Europe in recent years, only for the far right to gain most the vote those parties lost. Ouch.

Funny enough, the far right has basically no hold here in old Portugal thanks to our anachronistic Portuguese Communist Party. Yes, a surviving Marxist-Leninist party, back from the Soviet days, faithful to the USSR after the Stalin-Mao split, after Stalin's death, after even the fall of communism worldwide. A party that not only defends Chavez's Venezuela, like the younger, trendier radical left, but friggin North Korea. The fact that this party survives ensures that the old rural folk over here keep voting for them instead of voting for some dumb f***s like Trump, Farage or Le Pen. It also helps that these old folks were alive and well (not really well) during our far right dictatorship, of course.

Also, these young'uns talking 'bout colonial empires. Pft. Lemme tell you how it all began. Y'know tiny little Portugal, that country right next to Spain, where Cristiano Ronaldo is from? With nice beaches and pretty little cities, and very nice food, that everyone loves to pat in the head today? Well, this is a school map from around 50 years ago, when my parents were kids:

Spoiler:

The title reads "Portugal is not a small country". Them good old days...

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Chrior

Also, these young'uns talking 'bout colonial empires. Pft. Lemme tell you how it all began. Y'know tiny little Portugal, that country right next to Spain, where Cristiano Ronaldo is from? With nice beaches and pretty little cities, and very nice food, that everyone loves to pat in the head today? Well, this is a school map from around 50 years ago, when my parents were kids: