Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

I would like us all to take a moment of silence in light of this horrible event. Some of us were fans from the start, 31 years ago when Boba first made his appearance in The Holiday Special. That one, short cartoon sparked an interest that led on. Come the next year more joined our ranks. And throughout the years our numbers swelled. And now, after 31 long years our fandom will come to an end. Someone out there decided it would be a good idea to jump on the bandwagon, to take something that they should never have messed with, and twist it to try to make more money. Twist it into something it's not and isn't and never will be, something that is down right impossible, as at the time of the Clone Wars there ARE NO MANDALORIANS BECAUSE THEY DIED YEARS BEFORE AND JANGO IS THE ONLY SURVIVOR AND PASSED ON WHAT HE KNEW TO BOBA WHICH MADE BOBA THE ONLY MANDALORIAN AT THE TIME, in an attempt to bring in a group of viewers who are interested in seeing such things, and in doing so in their sad, pathetic attempts to make money, they will lose us, the very people they're trying to lure in. Sure, a few strong ones will make it through this hard time, but by next year I'm sure all two of us (and the slew of stupid little boys not interested in learning about the serious, in depth story behind everything, just interested in who dies next) will hold onto each other for support in the hope that someday our fandom will return to it's former glory.

I'll miss you guys, I really will. And I only pray I'm one of the survivors, for I'm not certain at all anymore.

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Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

Oh, I'm officially correct. As shown in the Open Seasons comic book we clearly see the entire Mandalorian army wiped out by Jedi, and Jango being the lone survivor. Therefore, logic states that Jango is the only Mandalorian in existence. Therefore the only Mandalorians that can come afterwards are only the people Jango trains to be Mandalorians. We can safely assume Jango trained Boba, seeing as Boba later restarts the Mandalorians, so I've heard. Therefore in the time of the Clone Wars Jango is dead. Leaving Boba as the only Mandalorian at that time. So where do these "Mandalorians" in Clone Wars come from? Enthusiasts who got their hands on armor and are faking it?

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Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

Short version: Until someone comes along to kick the crap out of a group of warriors using a dead warrior caste's name, then they are exactly what they say they are.

Also: Jango DID train the clones. He is the one who came up with the training program the Kaminoans used to train the clones. He wasn't just there to eat food, raise his kid and get fat on residuals. The second-to-last Mandalorian DID train the clones.

Warrior caste names are not genetic inheritances. Just like royalty, claims dilute when the title is not properly passed along. Had the Mando-clones survived until Boba's maturity, then he would have had to raise an army and go to war with them over the title.

Mandalorians also refers to people born on the planet Mandalore, not just that warrior caste.

-----------------Long Version--------------------------------Let's first pretend there's no planet called "Mandalore", and it ONLY refers to a warrior caste.

Sure they're Mandalorians. They're "Mandalorians" in the same way that lots of people in the real world call themselves "samurai", "witches", "berserkers" and "ninja." When there's no existing governing body using a term, then anyone can come along and use that term for their own needs. They have some claim to that title, because they are all clones of, and trained by, the last adult Mandalorian. Sure, someone can come along and fight them over the word, but until that happens, they're Mandalorians if in name only, much like that horrid gecko thing is Godzilla in name only as well.

Ask Miba how I feel about having to call that damned gecko "Godzilla". Problem is, if the creators say so, then they're correct.

That having been said, blame this one not on the Clone Wars writers, but place it solely on the shoulders of the Traviss fans. Are you guys not aware they've been letter writing like mad to Lucasfilms to get their way?

Now, we're going to go back to canon reality, that a planet named "Mandalore" does, in fact, exist.

Karen Traviss is an INCREDIBLE retard. It does not matter that the people presently living on Mandalore, whom would be "Mandalorians" as people living in Canada are "Canadians", are pacifists. Any of you ever been to Sweden? I hear there's no such thing as Vikings anymore. In fact, they don't even maintain an army beyond self defense forces. Internationally they're pacifists.

Because the current peoples of Sweden do not have Vikings anymore, that means there can never have been Vikings nor can there ever be again? (Fast history lesson, Swedish Vikings went east and pretty much founded Russia. The Norwegian Vikings are the big sailors, but they were both the same people at one time and an incredibly fighting force)

This planet of Mandalore happens to have a warrior class that once used the name of the planet in the past. There is no big "canon shift" here. All Lucasfilms has stated is that the present occupants of the PLANET Mandalore are pacifists, which is a stark contrast to their history. Something to bear in mind, we're not even sure if that's how it will play out. Historically speaking, it's not like this is the first time the Mandalorians have pretended to be pacified in order to survive, either.

Miba: above and beyond all of this agreeing with you allow me to re-emphasize: So long as there's people living on a planet called "Mandalore" there will always be "Mandalorians". Whether they are a warrior race or not is irrelevant, they are inhabitants of the planet "Mandalore". It was sort of silly to name the warrior class after the planet in the first place, when you think about it. The planet is named Mandalore, there's a person named Mandalore, and those who live on the planet are called "Mandalorians" as well as those who follow the leader Mandalore are called Mandalorians.

I mean, it's not like there's a such thing as the planet "Sardaukar" or the planet "Fremen", or the planet "Hawkman". As I recall, these proud warrior races are the inspirations cited by Karpyshyn in refining the concept of Mandalorians... it's a foolish cultural mistake in the first to name the elite warrior class after the planet itself.

And before anyone brings up Sparta, I remind you that was a tiny city, not even the seat of it's country's government, and it was somewhere up to 80% a slave class. The name of the country was Laconia. The inhabitants called it the Kingdom of (whoever), and those who passed certain tests were referred to as "Spartans". Out of the remaining population, less then half were able to pass and called "Spartans". Point being, it's not the same thing, despite what movies would have you think there was never a giant mass of land called "Sparta".

I don't think it was a good move on Karpyshyn's part to do that, and it almost feels like an oversight which somehow led to the planet and it's elite warrior class being called the same thing. And I don't want to hear anyone try to tell me that every resident of Mandalore, at some point in their history, was a warrior. It is absolutely impossible to maintain an entire society with nothing but people who spend their primary time in martial training. It's simply not possible to leave all farming, governing, manufacturing and foodmaking to warriors that reach "retired" age.

The "Mandalorians" are clearly a cut above warrior class, they even call worthy people born offworld "Mandalorians", yet, there is still a world called "Mandalore". This whole thing sounds to me like an overreaction to what many think of is a blaspheming on one use of the word, when it's likely a statement about the current beliefs of those who exist under the other meaning of the word.

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Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

And I'd like to reiterate, Jango DID train these clones. Boba is not old enough at this point in time to take the concept of Mandalorians to any appreciable level, the clones are. Did Boba recieve more personalized training then the clones? Yep. Did (we'll use their height of power) King Leonidas personally train every man to pass the agoge? No, in fact many passed it with no formal training whatsoever, yet those warriors were still called Spartans.

Boba wasn't old enough to even declare himself a "Mandalorian", much less pass the title along to the clones or not. This needs to be made stock stone clear: The last Mandalorian DIED. There are no Mandalorians left to hang the title on anyone. Neither Boba NOR the Clones really have a claim to it. When Boba later remakes the Mandalorians, he is simply doing exactly what the giant fighting force had many years before the Battle of Yavin.

Jango Fett, the last Mandalorian, trained the clones, but did not give them the title Mandalorians.

Jango Fett, the last Mandalorian, trained Boba, but did not give him the title of Mandalorian.

They honestly both have arguable claims to the term, and had not the Clone Troopers given up on that and become the Storm Troopers, (a sad, laughable shadow of their former glory), then Boba would have had to fight a War of Succession with them over it.

Fortunately, the Empire diluted their genes and their training removing them from Jango's teachings long before Luke and company took care of that for him anyway.

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Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

...and before anyone types a response about Mandos and the Resurrector of them, I remind you that will require spoiler tags or Miba will, rightfully, rip your head off. I know what I left out, you know what I left out, don't spoil it for anyone else.

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Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

Has anyone gotten to read the new Star Wars Insider yet? Definitely a different take on the Mandalorians. Wary of putting spoilers on here yet, but there is one familiar name associated with the Death Watch. As for everything else, well, you know how it goes. I had heard on one of the other boards that this wasn't actually going to be the planet Mandalore itself, but a world in the Mandalore system. However, some of the pics in the new Insider mag are still showing artwork of the city of Sundari, which they're still saying is the "capital" city of Mandalore. So, I'm not holding out hopes that this is just a colony world, like Concord Dawn or something like that.

I couldn't help but laugh at one of the interview questions posed to Dave Filoni which read; Did you draw on any Expanded Universe sources when you were developing them (the Mandalorians) for the show? His answer: "Not particularly." I kept thinking to myself, "yeah, no kidding Matlock." Looks like they didn't even make an attempt to research any Expanded Universe info. Heck, even a cursory search of Wookieepedia would've helped if they didn't want to spend the time doing in-depth research on a particular subject.

He goes on to say; "There were only a few scant things that George and I actually used (from Expanded Universe sources) in the Clone Wars series itself. That's not to say that the other EU stuff is eliminated or gone. I know some people will say, "This isn't the way I pictured it," but we're showing a particular point in their history, which is a very interesting development point. When I play games like Knights of the Old Republic that have Mandalorians in them, all that history is still there. We're just looking at one slice of it at this particular moment. It's bound to be different from some people's ideas."

Again, I say, "well, no kidding Matlock." What I found amusing is that the article right before the interview is "A Brief History of the Mandalorians." It mainly touches on different highlights of comics, movies, and games with notations of the Fett's and Mandalorians. But it specifically has a couple entries referencing the Republic Commando game and novels and the Star Wars Insider #80 article "The History of the Mandalorians" which integrated the disparate sources of Expanded Universe Mandalorian lore into a single retro-active, cohesive continuity. A continuity that Filoni is screwing up at this "one slice at this particular moment" is Star Wars continuity.

I've enjoyed watching the cartoon, but with all the continuity errors this dude is creating you'd think he wrote for DC Comics or something. I'm half expecting a "Crisis on Infinite Coruscants" to fix everything back again. I think that's what sets people off and disappoints them the most with the Clone Wars series. It's been taking too many liberties when it comes to things that have already had a history or story done about them. Seems very disrespectful and rude to the original writer. I know Filoni has permission from Lucasfilm to write all this on the cartoon, but all the author's that have ever written Star Wars have also had to get Lucasfilm approval so that they don't screw up continuity or canon as well, so it's not like Lucasfilm doesn't know....you know?

It would be like Gene Roddenberry suddenly saying that the Klingon's aren't a warrior race anymore. They're more like thos space hippies that Checkov's girl fell in with. "Show me the way to Eden, brother." I mean, let's face it. I'm a big Star Trek fan, as well as a Star Wars fan. And you have to admit the Mandalorians are like the Klingons of the Star Wars universe. Code of honor, their own distinctive armor, warrior race, aggressive expansion period, and their own language. I mean, you've never experienced Shakespeare until you've read it in it's "original" Mando'a. Even the fanbase mirrors it. First came the Federation costumers, then the Klingon costumers insinuated their way into the Cons. First came the 501st boys, then finally the Mando costumers are coming into their own at the Cons.

It's kind of like Bizarro world.....Me Love you guys......

;P

--Sadriel Fett (BFFC Moderator)"I'm just a simple Fan, trying to make my way in the universe."

Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

Miba: Is it so hard to believe that not all the Mandalorians dies in 'open seasons' ? Or that they were all even there at the time? I dont really see the big deal with that.

I will have to agree with Sadriel that there seems to be a lot of continuity errors in the 'Clone Wars' not regarding the Mandalorians, but as for this new episode: I will not pass final judgment on it in till it comes out next Friday.

As for this 'Sundari' place I am holding out on it being just another 'colony' world, though in the minds of these 'New Mandalorians' I can see them calling it the capital of 'Mandalore.'

Also Admin: That link doesn't work for me. It might just be my computer but yeah could you double check that for me?

Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

Well IDK. What I've read though is apparently these Mandos are Death Watch.

Yes, Death Watch, see that would make sense. That would make a lot of sense, actually. And I would approve of them using Death Watch.

Zivi, firstly, the picture on the cover of Insider there shows Mandalorian armor, which I would assume only be worn by the warriors? I don't see farmers putting on armor and wielding blasters. Like I said before, they might just be pretenders, like if my brother picked up a ninja sword and went around saying he was a ninja, he isn't, he's just pretending. Which I think is what you were trying to say too.Yeah, Jango did train SOME clones, but do they really have the ability to break away from the army they were born, raised, trained, and altered to serve? I thought the Kaminoans took that sort of individuality and independence away from them.Also, you can edit, you don't have to post three times in a row.

Sadriel, I agree completely on how he keeps messing things up. We already have a set canon, and now he's trying to go in and change everything and tv is a lot bigger way to reach people than books. Pretty soon all the newbie kids who watch it will be adults claiming they're true fans who know what canon is, and they don't because they've never touched a book. *ahem* On a side note I'd like to say "I told ya so" to everyone in general on this point.

Mandal_ShadowWarrior wrote:

Miba: Is it so hard to believe that not all the Mandalorians dies in 'open seasons' ? Or that they were all even there at the time? I dont really see the big deal with that.

Yeah. It is, actually. If not all the Mandalorians died then..... then why did Jango never get back with them later on? Jango, Mandalore at the time... you'd think if any Mandalorians weren't on that mission they'd try to find him or something?

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Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

Miba wrote:

Sadriel, I agree completely on how he keeps messing things up. We already have a set canon, and now he's trying to go in and change everything and tv is a lot bigger way to reach people than books. Pretty soon all the newbie kids who watch it will be adults claiming they're true fans who know what canon is, and they don't because they've never touched a book. *ahem* On a side note I'd like to say "I told ya so" to everyone in general on this point.

Canon changes are nothing new to Star Wars. Canon changed to make the Jedi religion a recent memory instead of an "ancient religion" as Han referred to it. I recall the initial release of Empire Strikes Back mentioning the Empire having "come into power hundreds of years ago" and planets suffering for generations under their rule. At some point Lucas simply decided to throw that away so that he could make this Empire rise and fall in 20 scant years.

Who shot first? How old is the Millennium Falcon? Where did Han get his scar? How old is Obi-Wan Kenobi? And let's not forget the very first canon shift: Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa suddenly being siblings, when, if that were always in mind, it would have fit in the first movie just fine and there was no reason for them to have kissed. These are all things that just keep changing.

The fact is, "canon" is malleable, and you either have to accept whatever the current Word of Darth Flannel is on everything involving it or you'll end up hating Star Wars for it. Your generation of fans seemed alien to my generation for all of the above reasons. We KNEW the true canon of Star Wars. The Empire was a long lasting scourge on the galaxy. We KNEW that Jedi was an ancient tradition. We KNEW that R2D2 was just a random astromech droid and Threepio just a random protocol droid, and they existed as comedic relief, not as some sort of connecting thread.

All of these things changed.

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Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

Han was just being insulting. Remember, he also called Obi-Wan an "old fossil".

ESB has never said anything about when the Empire started. It might could have in the novel, but the original novel also says that Yoda is blue. And the original ANH novel has Red Squadron as, what, Blue? Green? I forget. You can't go by the original novels.

Who shot first was done by the fans whining that Han shouldn't have shot first if he's a hero, and then people whining that it was good before. So blame that one on us. There's not really been any speculation on how old the Falcon is in the books, it's just a beat up old ship. There has only been one idea for where Han got his scar, in the Han Solo Adventures. It has always been from a knife-wound. How old Obi-Wan is was first done in the original ANH novel, I believe, so as I said up there you can't go by that. And in later books it never said one way or the other how old he is. Luke and Leia kissed in ESB, the same movie we got our first hints that they were brother and sister. I'm sure by that point he had that in mind.

So you KNEW the Empire had been there for years and years from.... wait, what source again?

Yeah, the Jedi IS an ancient order. They've been around since pretty much forever. And nothing in OT or PT discourages that.

R2 IS just a random astromech. 3PO IS just a random protocol droid. Neither of these droids have anything to do with connection. I remember something GL said in an interview about the droids. He said that we're sort of seeing the story of SW through their eyes. It's in the August 2000 boxed set re-release of the OT, in the preview of AOTC.

I fail to see how these things changed???

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Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

Miba: Is it so hard to believe that not all the Mandalorians dies in 'open seasons' ? Or that they were all even there at the time? I dont really see the big deal with that.

Yeah. It is, actually. If not all the Mandalorians died then..... then why did Jango never get back with them later on? Jango, Mandalore at the time... you'd think if any Mandalorians weren't on that mission they'd try to find him or something?

Well, the way I see it is that The Mandalorians are a loosely affiliated group of mercenary's and are never all together in one place at one time. Spread out across the galaxy passing on the tradition. While yes a very large portion of them died in open seasons, while rallying to the call of the Mandalore, not all of them felt a sense of loyalty or a need at the time and simply didn't come. Not to mention the Mando'ade that escaped or (possibly I'm just speculating now) were taken captive seeing as Jedi dont execute prisoners.

Also to put your doubts aside, the Mandalorians (the traditionally armored ones anyway) featured in the Clone Wars are Death Watch. However there are possibly going to be other 'errors' on the shows part including the capital being renamed and the planet Mandalore being located somewhere else as well as featuring different terrain I believe.

Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

Yes, these Mandalorians who didn't feel the need to follow the Mandalore were called Death Watch. And since it's Death Watch in the new CW then I don't have a problem anymore. In fact I'm almost interested to see this.

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Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

It'd make sense to me that some of the Death Watch would still be around. I mean, they set up the True Mandalorian army, under Mandalore Jango Fett to be wiped out by Dooku's Jedi. Once Jango escaped from slavery, he took revenge and killed Tor Viszla and his band. But, not all the Mandalorian warriors were killed at that battle. Remember that Walon Vau said that he felt like he let Jango down because he wasn't there at the Battle of Galidraan (did I spell that right?). And there were enough Mando's around to help Jango train the Commando's. And it says that he actually chose some former Death Watch to help train the Commando's, abeit, probably not the rabid Death Watch soldiers. Dred Priest and Isabet Rau were supposed to be former Death Watch and I get the impression there were a few more on the Kaminoans payroll, that Jango kept reigned in. So, the Death Watch part doesn't really bother me so much as Obi-Wan's royal "girlfriend" that's in this episode, who happens to have ties to the Mandalore people. But, like I said I'm not going to spoil it here. I can wait for a few days until it comes out. When you see it, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about and you'll be like......WHAT.......THE........FRAK?........

......really?..........really?...........I mean, really?............

P.S.--.....Darth Flannel......that's a good one, I've never heard that before. I'll have to remember that.

--Sadriel Fett (BFFC Moderator)"I'm just a simple Fan, trying to make my way in the universe."

Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

Here's a brief clip from the next episode. Minor spoilers ahead. This basically confirms what all you have been staying. Death Watch are confirmed. That's been established. But Again this one is painfully obviously but I just noticed it as well. The video says he is talking to 'Previsla'. Well I dunno about you but the symbol on his helmet seems to resemble Vizsla's helmet symbol. So we'll see how this works out.

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Re: Mandalorians on upcoming Clone Wars episode

Sadriel_Fett wrote:

It'd make sense to me that some of the Death Watch would still be around. I mean, they set up the True Mandalorian army, under Mandalore Jango Fett to be wiped out by Dooku's Jedi. Once Jango escaped from slavery, he took revenge and killed Tor Viszla and his band. But, not all the Mandalorian warriors were killed at that battle. Remember that Walon Vau said that he felt like he let Jango down because he wasn't there at the Battle of Galidraan (did I spell that right?). And there were enough Mando's around to help Jango train the Commando's. And it says that he actually chose some former Death Watch to help train the Commando's, abeit, probably not the rabid Death Watch soldiers. Dred Priest and Isabet Rau were supposed to be former Death Watch and I get the impression there were a few more on the Kaminoans payroll, that Jango kept reigned in. So, the Death Watch part doesn't really bother me so much as Obi-Wan's royal "girlfriend" that's in this episode, who happens to have ties to the Mandalore people. But, like I said I'm not going to spoil it here. I can wait for a few days until it comes out. When you see it, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about and you'll be like......WHAT.......THE........FRAK?........

......really?..........really?...........I mean, really?............

P.S.--.....Darth Flannel......that's a good one, I've never heard that before. I'll have to remember that.