For example, property taxes are rent, and this is a debt , but additionally, it either does or doesn't cause debt... I would argue that most people are causing debt in this form of rent... Thus, their discretionary income is bubbled or debt ridden, a lie, they are slaves to the debt system.

What's easy to prove is that someone can borrow money at a percentage of interest that it lower than the return they could make investing it, and that then they could pay the debt and still have extra money which they could spend on a variety of things depending on what they choose.

You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What's easy to prove is that someone can borrow money at a percentage of interest that it lower than the return they could make investing it, and that then they could pay the debt and still have extra money which they could spend on a variety of things depending on what they choose.

I may not seem like it... But I'm a really nefarious fucking dude... I know how to get laid, and how to make money ... If I can figure it out, I guarantee people are using it. I'm anti nefariousness though ... So I'm broke with no women.

This is false. People voluntarily take on debt all the time, and voluntarily choose not to pay it off when they could. This is true of rich and poor people, of businesses large and small, and nations at all stages of development.

This is false. People voluntarily take on debt all the time, and voluntarily choose not to pay it off when they could. This is true of rich and poor people, of businesses large and small, and nations at all stages of development.

There's a difference between informed consent and desired informed consent...

Do you want me to punch you in the face or kick you in the shin?

I would argue that people either want debt because they think they can get away with it, or maybe they're just lonely... Aside from that, I don't think debt is a desired informed consent issue.

What's easy to prove is that someone can borrow money at a percentage of interest that it lower than the return they could make investing it, and that then they could pay the debt and still have extra money which they could spend on a variety of things depending on what they choose.

I may not seem like it... But I'm a really nefarious fucking dude... I know how to get laid, and how to make money ... If I can figure it out, I guarantee people are using it. I'm anti nefariousness though ... So I'm broke with no women.

I don't think who you are or what you personally do pertains to the debate at hand.

You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

Ecmandu wrote:I would argue that people either want debt because they think they can get away with it[...]

People don't generally do things just because they can. The fact that people can often "get away with" carrying debt, i.e. carry debt to their benefit, is only part of the equation. They can get away with it, and it actually benefits them.

What's easy to prove is that someone can borrow money at a percentage of interest that it lower than the return they could make investing it, and that then they could pay the debt and still have extra money which they could spend on a variety of things depending on what they choose.

I may not seem like it... But I'm a really nefarious fucking dude... I know how to get laid, and how to make money ... If I can figure it out, I guarantee people are using it. I'm anti nefariousness though ... So I'm broke with no women.

I don't think who you are or what you personally do pertains to the debate at hand.

Well... You said it was hard to prove, and I stated that of I can figure it out, I'm sure people are doing it! That was my whole point.. Perhaps over the top though ...

This is false. People voluntarily take on debt all the time, and voluntarily choose not to pay it off when they could. This is true of rich and poor people, of businesses large and small, and nations at all stages of development.

That doesn't mean that they "want debt". That merely means that they want something else enough to tolerate debt.

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..

James S Saint wrote:That doesn't mean that they "want debt". That merely means that they want something else enough to tolerate debt.

This is a semantic distinction. The "something else" they want is the cash, which is just the obverse of the debt.

In any case, people freely choose to take on debt because they expect it to benefit them and they are frequently right. To my mind, it is fair to say that they wanted that, and even more clearly that they wanted it more than the other available options. If you prefer to use some circumscribed, technical, obtuse or otherwise idiosyncratic definition of 'to want', by all means.

You're being a little pedantic here. People say things like, "I want a job that pays well". That's a totally normal, meaningful use of the word 'want' and we all understand what is meant. It does not change anything that the speaker may greatly prefer to be paid well without having a job.

Similarly, people can want to take out a loan to buy a house. Sure, they'd love to just be given a house, but that doesn't mean they don't want to take out the loan, to take on the debt.

But the word 'want' is not the point. The point is that debt can be and frequently is part of a desirable outcome that people choose for themselves without coercion.

Carleas wrote:You're being a little pedantic here. People say things like, "I want a job that pays well". That's a totally normal, meaningful use of the word 'want' and we all understand what is meant. It does not change anything that the speaker may greatly prefer to be paid well without having a job.

Similarly, people can want to take out a loan to buy a house. Sure, they'd love to just be given a house, but that doesn't mean they don't want to take out the loan, to take on the debt.

But the word 'want' is not the point. The point is that debt can be and frequently is part of a desirable outcome that people choose for themselves without coercion.

And sometimes debt is not voluntarily assumed, sometimes liens are transferred inter generationally, as when predecessors die with extremely heavily mortgaged expensive property, with bleak outlook of payout in four or five generations or more, as in the cases of downward mobility. The overhead of course decreases dramatically, but there remains the caviat of the transfer of deed to never sell. All the families' sum income is needed for this effort. The family is constrained to get along under horrendous circumstances, yet, there is no elements of whether this is feasible or not, since the mortgages are based on absolute ownership and control. The serfs and the Lords of the Middle Ages knew what this meant, in real terms. The ruined aristocrats of modern times with titles but no money are also privy to this form of slavery to land and title.

We are virus, we are better than virus; we are plague and contagion, we are what cures it. We are symbiotic with all life around us and feast off of it as it feasts off of us. Energy vampires to actual feasting of flesh and blood, muscle and sinew. Welcome to the great circle of life.

“We hide in plain sight, and it works. Majestically. Everyone else can fuck the fuck off.”

jerkey wrote:And sometimes debt is not voluntarily assumed, sometimes liens are transferred inter generationally, as when predecessors die with extremely heavily mortgaged expensive property, with bleak outlook of payout in four or five generations or more, as in the cases of downward mobility.

In US law, this generally isn't possible. Most debt dies with the debtor, after the estate is exhausted. There are apparently rare cases where children have been found responsible for their parents medical bills, but that's the exception. Even a clause in a will that says the heir can never sell a property will only tend to disinherit that person (and my recollection of property law is fading, but I believe many such clauses don't even do that). So if a property is a net cost, the estate can sell it and wash their hands.

jerkey wrote:The ruined aristocrats of modern times with titles but no money are also privy to this form of slavery to land and title.

I'm not sure how it works in other countries, so it may be that in places where there are hereditary titles and estates, debt can also get passed down. I agree that's a bad system, but I have to think it's the extreme outlier.

Other countries could have broader inheritability of debt generally, and that too is a bad system and may be more common. But given that the US is among the most debt-friendly jurisdictions, with among the most indebted citizens, I think as a proportion of debt this is a small concern. I am open to correction though, if you know otherwise.