I know fuck all about this. And I'm really hazy on what the implications of the quitting the EU will be on Scotland, freedom of movement, blah blah blah.

But my limited understanding is that Cameron is actually being rather shrewd about this. He doesn't want the UK to leave the EU, but he wants to get the Tory Eurosceptics off his back and he also wants to cut a better deal with Strasbourg.

So what he has done is he has tinkered with the voting procedure to exclude Brits who've been abroad for over 15 years (because most will vote to stay), he has excluded non-British/Irish EU citizens living in the UK (because they'll almost all vote to stay) and he has included Commonwealth citizens, who have British permanent residency (because most will vote to quit the EU).

This keeps the Eurosceptics happy because it should increase the number of votes in favour of leaving the EU.

However it oughtn't to be enough to get the motion over the line. As such, it will be a close-ish result in favour of staying in the EU. And Cameron can throw a tanty at Strasbourg and ask them for more.

England trying to force the rest of the country out of the EU will be be the coup de grace for their precious Union.

UK doesn't need to be in EU.....un like the rest of Europe, which need to be in a EU for many reasons , the UK doesn't

If the Uk had maintains it trading connection with the Commonwealth countries (especially Australia and Canda) the Uk would have a bigger economy today ,of course this is in hindsight..Today , the UK doesn't need to be inside the EU to have free trade agreement with the EU or any other country , as Australia and US would be signing a free trade agreement soon with the EU

David Cameron will use the up coming referendum to try and push the EU to make very needed reforms..

for all the Scot, who want Scotland to stay in the EU....do you like that you country is now full of Polish and Lithuanians?, who have free movement in and out of Scotland, but Australians, and Kiwis (none Uk grandparents) don't ?..would you like to see Scottish people be giving free movement in Australia or less restrictions? because Australia government will never give such free movement to UK citizens un less it reciprocal to Australian citizens, and under EU law, UK can not make such agreement with Australia or new Zealand

Leaving aside the all-important economic aspect, the whole EU concept is a beautiful thing if you can get a passport from an EU country. But if you can't (and you want to live in Europe), it feels like blatant discrimination on the scale of Apartheid (don't get offended by hyperbole). The whole thing has absurdly inconsistent rules. Britain has really strict laws, while countries like Ireland and Hungary will grant citizenship in very tenuous circumstances. The whole point being that it feels like abject discrimination against people on the grounds, not even of their birth but their grandparent's birth. The idea that the difference between finding it frightfully difficult to stay in a country at all and being allowed to live, work, study (for FREE) and receive benefits from that country depends basically on where your grandparents were born is rather distasteful to me.

Leaving aside the all-important economic aspect, the whole EU concept is a beautiful thing if you can get a passport from an EU country. But if you can't (and you want to live in Europe), it feels like blatant discrimination on the scale of Apartheid (don't get offended by hyperbole). The whole thing has absurdly inconsistent rules. Britain has really strict laws, while countries like Ireland and Hungary will grant citizenship in very tenuous circumstances. The whole point being that it feels like abject discrimination against people on the grounds, not even of their birth but their grandparent's birth. The idea that the difference between finding it frightfully difficult to stay in a country at all and being allowed to live, work, study (for FREE) and receive benefits from that country depends basically on where your grandparents were born is rather distasteful to me.

as for as citizenship is concerned, every EU country is very different..so a country like Lithuania will not let people have two passport, except for a certain time period in history..I know a guy, who was born in Lithuania , but move to Australia when he was 10 years old (grow up in Australia) he then move back to Lithuanian (now he can have both Lithuania and Australia passport) he had two kids who was born in Lithuanian , but he move the family back to Australian when the kids was 5 and 4 years old, the two kids get Australian citizenship , but they have to give up there Lithuanian citizenship .so you have this crazy situation were the dad has both Australian and Lithuanian passport, but the kids only have Australian, even known they was born in Lithuania to two Lithuanian parents

Latvia, they have 200,000 people (10% of population) , who can't get a Latvian passport, even know they were born and live there whole life in Latvia, because they can't speak Latvian..but if born after 1991, then you can

then you have Malta, which you can buy a passport for about $1 million Euros, Austria you get for about $5 million, and Cyprus gave citizenship to all the rich Russian, when Cyprus banks steal everyone money from there bank accounts in 2009 :)

Leaving aside the all-important economic aspect, the whole EU concept is a beautiful thing if you can get a passport from an EU country. But if you can't (and you want to live in Europe), it feels like blatant discrimination on the scale of Apartheid (don't get offended by hyperbole). The whole thing has absurdly inconsistent rules. Britain has really strict laws, while countries like Ireland and Hungary will grant citizenship in very tenuous circumstances. The whole point being that it feels like abject discrimination against people on the grounds, not even of their birth but their grandparent's birth. The idea that the difference between finding it frightfully difficult to stay in a country at all and being allowed to live, work, study (for FREE) and receive benefits from that country depends basically on where your grandparents were born is rather distasteful to me.

as for as citizenship is concerned, every EU country is very different..so a country like Lithuania will not let people have two passport, except for a certain time period in history..I know a guy, who was born in Lithuania , but move to Australia when he was 10 years old (grow up in Australia) he then move back to Lithuanian (now he can have both Lithuania and Australia passport) he had two kids who was born in Lithuanian , but he move the family back to Australian when the kids was 5 and 4 years old, the two kids get Australian citizenship , but they have to give up there Lithuanian citizenship .so you have this crazy situation were the dad has both Australian and Lithuanian passport, but the kids only have Australian, even known they was born in Lithuania to two Lithuanian parents

Latvia, they have 200,000 people (10% of population) , who can't get a Latvian passport, even know they were born and live there whole life in Latvia, because they can't speak Latvian..but if born after 1991, then you can

then you have Malta, which you can buy a passport for about $1 million Euros, Austria you get for about $5 million, and Cyprus gave citizenship to all the rich Russian, when Cyprus banks steal everyone money from there bank accounts in 2009 :)

Edited by adrtho: 26/5/2015 04:38:34 AM

Yeah and in Sweden all you have to do is go fight for Isis and they'll give you an apartment

Quote:

The red-green-pink (pink for the feminist party) just approved a strategy giving returning ISIS fighters support in many ways. For one, through a cooperation with the housing corporations to give them housing. Another, by introducing them to various job offers and getting them jobs

This strategy has been met with criticism by the right, who believe that the left is rewarding ISIS fighters rather than punishing them. "There is no reason to treat IS fighters any different than any other citizens. You don't get jobs and housing simply because you are a criminal", says People's Party Lotta Edholm.

Ewa Larsson, Greens, counter by saying that having a job is a fundamental human right and their concern is the social part rather than the judicial one.

Leaving aside the all-important economic aspect, the whole EU concept is a beautiful thing if you can get a passport from an EU country. But if you can't (and you want to live in Europe), it feels like blatant discrimination on the scale of Apartheid (don't get offended by hyperbole). The whole thing has absurdly inconsistent rules. Britain has really strict laws, while countries like Ireland and Hungary will grant citizenship in very tenuous circumstances. The whole point being that it feels like abject discrimination against people on the grounds, not even of their birth but their grandparent's birth. The idea that the difference between finding it frightfully difficult to stay in a country at all and being allowed to live, work, study (for FREE) and receive benefits from that country depends basically on where your grandparents were born is rather distasteful to me.

as for as citizenship is concerned, every EU country is very different..so a country like Lithuania will not let people have two passport, except for a certain time period in history..I know a guy, who was born in Lithuania , but move to Australia when he was 10 years old (grow up in Australia) he then move back to Lithuanian (now he can have both Lithuania and Australia passport) he had two kids who was born in Lithuanian , but he move the family back to Australian when the kids was 5 and 4 years old, the two kids get Australian citizenship , but they have to give up there Lithuanian citizenship .so you have this crazy situation were the dad has both Australian and Lithuanian passport, but the kids only have Australian, even known they was born in Lithuania to two Lithuanian parents

Latvia, they have 200,000 people (10% of population) , who can't get a Latvian passport, even know they were born and live there whole life in Latvia, because they can't speak Latvian..but if born after 1991, then you can

then you have Malta, which you can buy a passport for about $1 million Euros, Austria you get for about $5 million, and Cyprus gave citizenship to all the rich Russian, when Cyprus banks steal everyone money from there bank accounts in 2009 :)

Edited by adrtho: 26/5/2015 04:38:34 AM

Yeah and in Sweden all you have to do is go fight for Isis and they'll give you an apartment

:lol: yes, but it one of those box apartment that is made in one day :lol:

England trying to force the rest of the country out of the EU will be be the coup de grace for their precious Union.

for all the Scot, who want Scotland to stay in the EU....do you like that you country is now full of Polish and Lithuanians?, who have free movement in and out of Scotland, but Australians, and Kiwis (none Uk grandparents) don't ?..would you like to see Scottish people be giving free movement in Australia or less restrictions? because Australia government will never give such free movement to UK citizens un less it reciprocal to Australian citizens, and under EU law, UK can not make such agreement with Australia or new Zealand

Yeah we're fine with it because we: a) aren't a bunch of pathetic racists like the south, the little England phenomena is, as the name suggest, an English trait.

b) could not give a flying fuck about England's stupid commonwealth, thus free movement within it is useless to us. Free movement around Australia/NZ for UK citizens and vice versa is utterly pointless compared to being able to move freely throughout Europe.

c) Enjoy being integrated formally within European society and the benefits come with that. Most recognise that we are just as the rest of the EU can come to Scotland, we are just as free to go live anywhere else in the EU. Immigration is beneficial to our economy, especially due to nearly half of all new immigrants to Scotland holding a degree which helps slow the brain drain south.

For what it's worth, I can think of a fairly decent number of Scots, whom I know personally, who would probably trade free movement within the Commonwealth for free movement within the EU. Lots I know would rather have easy access to Australia, Canada or New Zealand, than the right to live in France or Italy. And you could argue that this is evidenced by the number of Scots living in Commonwealth countries.

That's not to suggest they don't want to be part of the EU, just that many have aspirations of living in Commonwealth countries.

But as you suggested by way of citing multiple reasons, there are other reasons, such as economics, skills and immigration, which make it more sensible for Scotland to remain part of the EU. Especially for the majority who, I imagine, are quite content to remain in Scotland.

For what it's worth, I can think of a fairly decent number of Scots, whom I know personally, who would probably trade free movement within the Commonwealth for free movement within the EU. Lots I know would rather have easy access to Australia, Canada or New Zealand, than the right to live in France or Italy. And you could argue that this is evidenced by the number of Scots living in Commonwealth countries.

England trying to force the rest of the country out of the EU will be be the coup de grace for their precious Union.

for all the Scot, who want Scotland to stay in the EU....do you like that you country is now full of Polish and Lithuanians?, who have free movement in and out of Scotland, but Australians, and Kiwis (none Uk grandparents) don't ?..would you like to see Scottish people be giving free movement in Australia or less restrictions? because Australia government will never give such free movement to UK citizens un less it reciprocal to Australian citizens, and under EU law, UK can not make such agreement with Australia or new Zealand

Yeah we're fine with it because we: a) aren't a bunch of pathetic racists like the south, the little England phenomena is, as the name suggest, an English trait.

b) could not give a flying fuck about England's stupid commonwealth, thus free movement within it is useless to us. Free movement around Australia/NZ for UK citizens and vice versa is utterly pointless compared to being able to move freely throughout Europe.

c) Enjoy being integrated formally within European society and the benefits come with that. Most recognise that we are just as the rest of the EU can come to Scotland, we are just as free to go live anywhere else in the EU. Immigration is beneficial to our economy, especially due to nearly half of all new immigrants to Scotland holding a degree which helps slow the brain drain south.

c) Enjoy being integrated formally within European society and the benefits come with that. Most recognise that we are just as the rest of the EU can come to Scotland, we are just as free to go live anywhere else in the EU. Immigration is beneficial to our economy, especially due to nearly half of all new immigrants to Scotland holding a degree which helps slow the brain drain south.

Yes, free and uncontrolled movement of peoples from literal third world countries with a dismal minimum wage is beneficial to the UK economy. :lol:

UK doesn't need the EU, the EU needs the UK. Although I don't think they'll leave, I hope Cameron uses this to negotiate far better terms with the EU.

c) Enjoy being integrated formally within European society and the benefits come with that. Most recognise that we are just as the rest of the EU can come to Scotland, we are just as free to go live anywhere else in the EU. Immigration is beneficial to our economy, especially due to nearly half of all new immigrants to Scotland holding a degree which helps slow the brain drain south.

Yes, free and uncontrolled movement of peoples from literal third world countries with a dismal minimum wage is beneficial to the UK economy. :lol:

UK doesn't need the EU, the EU needs the UK. Although I don't think they'll leave, I hope Cameron uses this to negotiate far better terms with the EU.

Edited by 433: 26/5/2015 07:53:24 PM

Except there are plenty of areas like Scotland, the North of England and Wales where immigration from these regions is helpful to their local economies as they take unskilled jobs that no local wants to do as they see it as beneath them.

At the other end, companies being able to hire skilled/degree holding immigrants gives them more opportunities to grow and gives them incentive to stay in the region rather than relocate to London despite the lesser amount of local graduates in the area.

The (southern) English can whinge about it all they want, the fact is it's only them who have issues with it and trying to force the other three nations out of Europe is going to be the start of the end for the Union.

c) Enjoy being integrated formally within European society and the benefits come with that. Most recognise that we are just as the rest of the EU can come to Scotland, we are just as free to go live anywhere else in the EU. Immigration is beneficial to our economy, especially due to nearly half of all new immigrants to Scotland holding a degree which helps slow the brain drain south.

Yes, free and uncontrolled movement of peoples from literal third world countries with a dismal minimum wage is beneficial to the UK economy. :lol:

UK doesn't need the EU, the EU needs the UK. Although I don't think they'll leave, I hope Cameron uses this to negotiate far better terms with the EU.

Edited by 433: 26/5/2015 07:53:24 PM

Except there are plenty of areas like Scotland, the North of England and Wales where immigration from these regions is helpful to their local economies as they take unskilled jobs that no local wants to do as they see it as beneath them.

](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

I hate this trope.

No, locals "don't see the job as beneath them". This a blatant lie.

Managers/employers can get away with paying immigrants less because they're willing to work for less. So locals either have to agree to work for less (often too little for them to live) or no work at all.

Either way, the working class get fucked.

Quote:

At the other end, companies being able to hire skilled/degree holding immigrants gives them more opportunities to grow and gives them incentive to stay in the region rather than relocate to London despite the lesser amount of local graduates in the area.

I'm not arguing that there should be less immigration (although I'm of that mind). All I'm saying is that there should be controls on this immigration. Is that unreasonable?

Locals do see some jobs as beneath them. Minimum wage is minimum wage. In certain circumstances it is that the foreigners work harder. That is why they are hired. Because they know if they dont work hard they wont have a job. They are not entitled to the same social help either.

c) Enjoy being integrated formally within European society and the benefits come with that. Most recognise that we are just as the rest of the EU can come to Scotland, we are just as free to go live anywhere else in the EU. Immigration is beneficial to our economy, especially due to nearly half of all new immigrants to Scotland holding a degree which helps slow the brain drain south.

Yes, free and uncontrolled movement of peoples from literal third world countries with a dismal minimum wage is beneficial to the UK economy. :lol:

UK doesn't need the EU, the EU needs the UK. Although I don't think they'll leave, I hope Cameron uses this to negotiate far better terms with the EU.

Edited by 433: 26/5/2015 07:53:24 PM

Except there are plenty of areas like Scotland, the North of England and Wales where immigration from these regions is helpful to their local economies as they take unskilled jobs that no local wants to do as they see it as beneath them.

At the other end, companies being able to hire skilled/degree holding immigrants gives them more opportunities to grow and gives them incentive to stay in the region rather than relocate to London despite the lesser amount of local graduates in the area.

The (southern) English can whinge about it all they want, the fact is it's only them who have issues with it and trying to force the other three nations out of Europe is going to be the start of the end for the Union.

this was a major advantage the EU had 10 years ago, all the educated Eastern European coming into the EU labor market , but the EU fuck up this one big advantage up..but moving forward, the wage difference between Scotland and all the center and Eastern European countries is drooping each year, there will be a wage gap, but the days of high academic degree coming and doing cheap work are over..Fuck, Estonia will end up on the same wage pay as Finland soon

Me and a mate use to joke before 2004 , when Eastern European countries join the EU and before they all start moving to the UK ..my mate would say, can you imagine when they get to London, and they go to bank and open a account, and see they get a £50 automatic overdraft, they will open 20 bank account the 1st day :lol: then ring home "mama, i'm rich, bring papa and babushka to England tomorrow, and we all be rich " :lol:

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