The unpopular answer: tunnel vision can cause blocks in empathy. While testing isn't something I'd personally say is an INFJ weakness, sometimes tunnel vision- and thinking we know all there is to know about the other person's experience, so we'd 'know' if something was truly going to be hurtful- can cause NFJs to say incredibly hurtful things without taking responsibility for the suffering it actually causes. They can be resistant to hearing that it's hurtful, because they 'know' (magically) it isn't. *Tunnel vision*.

I also need to throw in that **MOST** NFJs are too self aware to do this, and the thought of it is even kinda horrifying.

But as far as the 'testing', I don't think that's especially an INFJ thing.

Thanks

I don't quite understand. Could you please explain it another way?

Where should one look to learn more about this type of 'tunnel vision'?

"..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

I'm not sure what you mean by 'learn more about it'. I think you can throw a stone in any direction in this forum and find a thread where someone is complaining about us (INFJs, or our ENFJ brethren) because of it. So I guess I need a more specific question.

edit to add: It’s a touchy subject because honestly, a lot of people who show up complaining about it- it’s clear from their style of um…. “dialogue” (which is to say, it’s not dialogue so much as monologue) that the complainer is actually the problem and they’re angry because they can’t dictate to us what we should think or feel. I mean, if they’re behaving that way towards us on an internet forum, there’s a good chance it’s the way they behaved with the INFJ in question as well, so the assumption is that they’re angry at the INFJ for simply having a point of view they don’t like (which is the fastest way to get a doorslam- to outwardly get controlling about that kind of thing).

I'm not sure what you mean by 'learn more about it'. I think you can throw a stone in any direction in this forum and find a thread where someone is complaining about us (INFJs, or our ENFJ brethren) because of it. So I guess I need a more specific question.

I really like and appreciate your direct information Z Buck McFate!

Ahh...I see. Umm, what is it like to have this tunnel vision? Does it mean..mentally believing one has all knowledge of the other? As I thought you may have said above..but am not sure..

Does tunnel vision assume both people know, sort of on the table with all there is to know, and so the hurt shouldn't matter because it's inexcusable from both people having this knowledge ( but at the same time its just assumed fantasy by the one person to think that both people have it)?

Ahh...I see. Umm, what is it like to have this tunnel vision? Does it mean..mentally believing one has all knowledge of the other? As I thought you may have said above..but am not sure..

Does tunnel vision assume both people know, sort of on the table with all there is to know, and so the hurt shouldn't matter because it's inexcusable from both people having this knowledge ( but at the same time its just assumed fantasy by the one person to think that both people have it)?

First of all, I don't think all INFJs have this tunnel vision. In fact, I think the majority of us are especially careful about bouncing reality off of other people for the purpose of NOT treating others this way. And I think that any INFJs who have never personally had to deal with it in another NFJ probably wonder WTH people complain about. Just like all ENTPs aren’t hedonistic, out of control reality dictators- it’s just the select few who are blind (or apathetic) to how their presence in the world negatively affects others, and it’s hard to hear people show up and systematically complain about something you know you don’t do, and probably seems like an exaggeration to anyone who's never personally experienced it. It's just that I *have* dealt with a couple NFJs who do the things that people complain about, so in spite of feeling like something of a traitor, I have to admit I *have* seen it and know what they’re talking about.

It’s never that the hurt shouldn’t matter, it’s that the hurt doesn’t exist and it’s treating them “like they are stupid” to try to tell them about it. I think they mistake their own experience of the world as all encompassing- so anyone who claims to be experiencing something differently than they experience it themselves is ‘clearly’ mistaken.

I think that Ni can be sort of like a GPS. A GPS device can tell you where you are in relation to other things, what the speed limit is, what kind of restaurants are around the corner and out of view to the naked eye- we ‘notice’ all sorts of information, constantly, about everything going on around us that other people aren’t noticing. And the tunnel vision is when we’re so focused on what that ‘GPS’ is telling us that we don’t believe what’s right in front of us (or rather, we don't believe what others are telling us is right in front of us). I think, for the most part, we're constantly bouncing reality off of others to make sure what we're seeing is accurate- and most of us are reasonable about it. But sometimes a person comes along who doesn't seem to need that reality check to feel secure in the notion that what they're seeing is indisputable.

This^ can be a blind spot for all Js, really- and I think NJs in particular because Ni is so often right (and deeply, deeply instinctive- a lot of stuff is ‘clear’, though we can’t begin to explain why). It’s like standing if front of a gas station with someone who is arguing that you’re both standing in front of a library (because they’re looking right at their GPS and it clearly says ‘library’- so it seems like it's ‘obviously what you’re both looking at’). And with NFJs, I’ve noticed it can manifest as someone believing that you either aren’t really feeling what you claim to be feeling, or you aren’t feeling it for the reason you claim to be feeling it. It can be maddening to deal with- and hard to believe people can be like that until you've actually had to deal with one.

And the thing is- when it’s correct, it’s really insightful. We have this built in GPS of sorts and have insight into things other people don’t usually see- but it backfires horribly when we stop believing reality checks and when we stop giving other people credit when they’re telling us what their own experience is.

Believing someone else is telling the truth isn’t always an option- INFJs are constantly taking mental notes about people, like there are an infinite amount of sticky notes sitting around in our psyche, and if someone says something which sets off silent alarms it’s almost always because they’re saying or doing something which contradicts something they’ve said or done before- so believing the extent to which others truly know what they’re talking about isn’t a choice. But I personally tend to put things on a ‘judgment pending’ list if I don’t believe someone, and I’m *really* careful about thinking I know more about someone else’s experience than they know themselves because I know it can be an incredibly offensive stance to take.

I think, actually, this is such a touchy subject for a lot of INFJs because many of us err in the direction of putting too much stuff on that ‘judgment pending’ list- only to see in retrospect that we clearly should not have trusted someone. AND the kind of people who often show up complaining about how we aren't listening to them "because of the tunnel vision" (or whatever- like I said in previous post, their behavior in the forum suggests it's more about them being frustrated because they can't MAKE their INFJ think or feel what they want) are *a lot* like the kind of people we've made the mistake of extending too much credit to in the past. So it's a touchy subject.

edit: And to bring this all back to the op & the example you posted: I can see how this tendency can lead an INFJ to say mean things without believing they're being mean- but as far as the 'testing' itself, I really don't think that's related to INFJness.

Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 03-03-2012 at 12:50 AM.
Reason: added words that were left out/sentence didn't make sense

I totally agree with @Z Buck McFate's comments about "tunnel vision" and how the sometimes-habit of INFJs to rely on "magical thinking" can encourage this in an unhealthy way.

It may not be entirely on topic but this also made me think of how my empathy can sometimes switch off if I am pushed too far. It doesn't happen much but it has happened. If someone has repeatedly been cruel or thoughtless to me I can go somewhere too cold to feel empathy any more. And I can also strike where it hurts. I've been told so. I don't think INFJs magically perceive all human weakness and failings in others (though some think they do!) but generally we can perceive others' areas of strength or weakness... It's kind of a power to be able to use that against other people. Not a very nice one in most cases.

First of all, I don't think all INFJs have this tunnel vision. In fact, I think the majority of us are especially careful about bouncing reality off of other people for the purpose of NOT treating others this way.

We share this belief...I've known several INFJs and most exude a carefullness about their thinking.

and it’s hard to hear people show up and systematically complain about something you know you don’t do, and probably seems like an exaggeration to anyone who's never personally experienced it.

Haa yea. Would feel unfair and maybe irritating to me.

It’s never that the hurt shouldn’t matter, it’s that the hurt doesn’t exist and it’s treating them “like they are stupid” to try to tell them about it. I think they mistake their own experience of the world as all encompassing- so anyone who claims to be experiencing something differently than they experience it themselves is ‘clearly’ mistaken.

You're really smart. This scenario is a perfect 'match' to what I've witnessed.

I think, for the most part, we're constantly bouncing reality off of others to make sure what we're seeing is accurate- and most of us are reasonable about it. But sometimes a person comes along who doesn't seem to need that reality check to feel secure in the notion that what they're seeing is indisputable.

Exactly matches what I've seen time and time again. Exactly. I could imagine where one might think they don't seem to need reality checks is the point at which they need them more. I don't understand why one would think they didn't need something they need. Sort of, I know I need water but I make sure I drink it instead of starving myself. Why?

And with NFJs, I’ve noticed it can manifest as someone believing that you either aren’t really feeling what you claim to be feeling, or you aren’t feeling it for the reason you claim to be feeling it. It can be maddening to deal with- and hard to believe people can be like that until you've actually had to deal with one.

Thank you for explaining this. It has been a phenomenon not understood ( to me) for several years. And now I understand that. I've personally been in these shoes with NFJs. Many, many times not knowing what was going on. Haha.

And the thing is- when it’s correct, it’s really insightful.

I'm sure it would be nice if Ni worked by itself reliably.

Believing someone else is telling the truth isn’t always an option- INFJs are constantly taking mental notes about people, like there are an infinite amount of sticky notes sitting around in our psyche, and if someone says something which sets off silent alarms it’s almost always because they’re saying or doing something which contradicts something they’ve said or done before- so believing the extent to which others truly know what they’re talking about isn’t a choice. But I personally tend to put things on a ‘judgment pending’ list if I don’t believe someone, and I’m *really* careful about thinking I know more about someone else’s experience than they know themselves because I know it can be an incredibly offensive stance to take.

This made me think. Sorry for the tangent. Could you think a spontaneous, fun loving person could be seen instead as being inconsistent? And that could 'feed' some insecurities in an insecure person?

edit: And to bring this all back to the op & the example you posted: I can see how this tendency can lead an INFJ to say mean things without believing they're being mean- but as far as the 'testing' itself, I really don't think that's related to INFJness.

Thanks

"..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

All other INFJ posters have done a marvelous job in explaining the critical points in ways that are so eloquently structured. <3

One poster mention that testing people might have to do with insecurity. I only agree with that partially. Most INFJ look into patterns of verbal consistency--a future plan when someone has promised wholeheartedly or a firm declarative statement one has made in the past. We normally don't cast doubts on others unless we keep seeing those inconsistency between their words and actions.

Perhaps, Avatar7, you might have casted some doubts to this INFJ since your type is good at opening up all possibilities and might not be able to keep them all in line with your actions. This could be a reason why she started to test on you.

you might have casted some doubts to this INFJ since your type is good at opening up all possibilities and might not be able to keep them all in line with your actions. This could be a reason why she started to test on you.

Just a thought.

Ohh Snap! This resonates as true. But I gotta think about statements said and actions taken/attitudes/beliefs/things not done/misunderstandings/etc. to be sure.

"..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

Z Buck McFate, SilkRoad and Crescent Fresh are all super-keen INFJs. Uggh this is some good deep carving into the mental Mariana Trench! More please!

Possibilities mentioned to the INFJ might have been taken as subtle promises? I mean I could understand that subtlety is the way INFJs communicate..but taken from an ENTP as verbatim, concrete predicted outcome?

Well this surely would make sense. If someone were to conclude the future were to be a solid outcome based on subtle statements..well I would have to deduce that:

First, that sort of thing hardly ever pans out, if ever.. no matter what types are in conversation..just due to the nature of this world being a place where one's 'circle of influence' is small.

Two, I could see how this might be a way of one trying to rationalize their way out of a relationship by using it against the other in criticizing their 'failings', when these things were never promises, but as you say, stated as mere possibilities, but nevertheless, in trying to gain leverage.

How do these concepts bounce off of you?

"..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

It may not be entirely on topic but this also made me think of how my empathy can sometimes switch off if I am pushed too far. It doesn't happen much but it has happened. If someone has repeatedly been cruel or thoughtless to me I can go somewhere too cold to feel empathy any more. And I can also strike where it hurts. I've been told so. I don't think INFJs magically perceive all human weakness and failings in others (though some think they do!) but generally we can perceive others' areas of strength or weakness... It's kind of a power to be able to use that against other people. Not a very nice one in most cases.

Yeah, me too (when empathy just shuts off, cold turkey). I’ve been thinking about how to add to this- like what exactly causes it- but can’t think of anything more than agreeing it’s a ‘boy who cried wolf’ kind of thing.

And to the second part- seriously, we hoard mental notes about people, without even realizing we’re doing it- and patterns emerge rather quickly (about strengths and weaknesses). Which is why dealing with an NFJ who has gone over to the dark side can be like the worst acid trip ever- but I wonder if that’s only because I’m an F. When NTJs get the same tyrant-like, unreasonable tunnel vision, I don’t give it as much weight- it’s annoying as hell, but it’s clearer to me in the moment how they’re being unreasonable (it’s like they’re trying to MAKE me think something which seems clearly stupid). But the NFJs (there are a couple I’ve had serious problems with) know how to say things that really make me wonder which of us is totally off, leaving me stymied for more time than they deserved for me to waste on them.

Originally Posted by Avatar7

This made me think. Sorry for the tangent. Could you think a spontaneous, fun loving person could be seen instead as being inconsistent? And that could 'feed' some insecurities in an insecure person?

It isn’t just the spontaneity- in fact, I find the spontaneity and enthusiasm of most Ne doms refreshing (because I don’t have my own surplus of it) and endearing- it’s the rationalizations. I worked alongside an ESFP nurse who was really inconsistent about her reasons for firing people- it was clear that it was more about her liking some people and not liking others. It’s like as long as she could find a reason that looked good on paper (for those above her to see), she’d go with it- but a lot of people would break rules far more serious than the ones she’d choose for the people she clearly wanted to let go. It was embarrassing to work with her because of it. And it wasn’t just firing people, she’d constantly gives reasons why so-and-so wasn’t allowed to take a weekend off- while other people would have bona fide reasons she’d refuse. When I tried pointing it out here and there (to explain why someone was upset/why others felt she wasn’t being fair)- instead of listening and taking it into consideration, she’d just pile on more rationalizations. It was like the concept that other people didn’t have her fruit fly attention span- and so needed more consistency to respect her decisions- was so beyond her that she couldn’t grasp it. So I didn’t trust her judgment; when she told me she’d need me to take care of something, I always felt like the reason she was giving me was some bullshit rationalization to compensate for the fact that she was just really impulsive and wanted what she wanted when she wanted it.

I dated an ENTP for 8 years, and one of the first nicknames I gave him was Captain Superlative (because everything he was doing at the present moment was the ‘worst ever’ or ‘best ever’)- and the fact that he was like that never wore on me or set off silent Ni alarms in itself. It’s the rationalizations- doing things that are hurtful or thoughtless and pulling some bullshit excuse out of thin air to justify them. If the ‘excuse’ matches all the mental sticky notes I’ve gathered about a person- then it’s believable to me, and often times excusable. But if someone does something crappy/hurtful because “_____ is really important to me”- and they’ve never once mentioned it before, but it’s important now that some shiny new opportunity makes it feel important- then I necessarily lose respect for their judgment. I’m not saying I’ll lose respect because of an isolated incident- but if I pick up a recurring theme then it isn’t even a choice, my ‘GPS’ starts flashing “this person is selfish and disrespectful, and they think they can ‘talk’ their way out of being such.” Every time a person repeats that kind of behavior, the silent alarms will flash a little bit brighter and brighter.

As far as being spontaneous though- I have absolutely no qualms with someone loving chocolate pudding more than life itself one day, and then thinking tapioca is the only kind of pudding that makes sense the next. Like I said- I even find that kind of enthusiasm and spontaneity endearing and enthralling to be around. It’s only when that spontaneity affects others negatively that I start judging it harshly. I understand that for ExxPs brand new things genuinely can feel important and valid, but we all need to take responsibility for how we affect others. All types have their Achilles’ heels. This applies just as much to NFJs and the stuff I mentioned in the previous post.

edit to add:

Originally Posted by Avatar7

How do these concepts bounce off of you?

I don't really understand this post. I'm going to have to come back and see if it makes more sense later.

another edit to add:

Originally Posted by Avatar7

You're really smart. This scenario is a perfect 'match' to what I've witnessed.

Seriously, this all is just the product of too much looping- making sense out of how people who care about me could be so mean- that I've had to do myself. My mom is ENFJ, plus there's an INFJ who was my best friend for a long time- she started making bizarre accusations and getting angry about weird things, and it took me a long time to reconcile how she could behave the way she was behaving AND care about me.