Indyref 2

And having done an advisory referendum (more likely to get a yes IMO, with Scots being pissed off at being told they can't have a binding one) -- just like the EU one was advisory -- can the Scottish government then just unilaterally declare independence? England can't keep them if they don't want to be kept -- isn't that right?

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Some speculation from John Curtice as to what Sturgeon's next step will be if she doesn't get section 30 approval: it's all in the wording of the question, apparently:

Was at a house party last night (yeah, bit of a headache and a thirst as it happens, but been drinking Irn Bru and listening to Unhalfbricking to aid recovery), and two old friends who were firm No-ers last time aren't any more. The husband is a Bristolian and I think I mentioned him during the last campaign as ardently anti-independence. He's now saying "fuck it, we have to get out of this UK mess before it takes us all down with it". His view is that he opposed independence before because he thought it was the parochial and inward-looking option. He now says that staying in the U.K. is the parochial and inward-looking option.

His wife is from NE Scotland and isn't as convincedly pro-Yes, but is considering it. She was ardently anti last time. She's still a bit put off by attitudes of some pro-Indy people on social media and worries that there's a nasty undercurrent lurking beneath the surface. But she says she wants to be convinced.

Thought so. Is there any reason for this or is it just nationalism = rascism?

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Well, I think it's a fear she and plenty of others genuinely have. I think she's quite right that you can find unpleasant people on social media, but then you can find unpleasant people anywhere you look.

However, it's well worth the Yes side paying attention: these are the people they need to win over; the "55". That her husband is now convinced that independence is the outward-facing non-parochial option suggests that this is a message they need to pursue. That she isn't fully convinced suggests it's a message that isn't quite getting across.

It's amusing that the Guardian calls it Spain "dropping plan to veto" when they've been saying for quite some time that they didn't plan to veto Scotland. As far as I can tell, this has been their position all along. It's just that the UK press wasn't accurately reporting it until now.

A better headline would be: "Media drops inacccurate reporting of Spain's position on Scottish independence".

Well, I think it's a fear she and plenty of others genuinely have. I think she's quite right that you can find unpleasant people on social media, but then you can find unpleasant people anywhere you look.

However, it's well worth the Yes side paying attention: these are the people they need to win over; ...

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Quick straw poll says....No. We're not going to engage with her. Give her our best wishes.

Any examples of racism should be reported firmly to the relevant authorities, of course.

You're not going to engage with people who are travelling towards Yes but who need reassuring?

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Nah. Not if their concern is racism.

Too busy reaching out to all the EU and non-EU people living here saying we'll stand up for them. Encouraging people to move here from abroad (which includes England). Protesting and fighting against deportations. Accepting refugees and making them welcome...although we can't do anything about the weather, sorry peeps.

Actions speak louder than undercurrents. And if reaching out to every race, creed, religion, language and haircut isn't loud enough...

So no. Just no. We're looking for positive contributions danny, people that want to get involved because they agree with the concepts of civic nationalism and a small country looking after its own affairs.

Too busy reaching out to all the EU and non-EU people living here saying we'll stand up for them. Encouraging people to move here from abroad (which includes England). Protesting and fighting against deportations. Accepting refugees and making them welcome...although we can't do anything about the weather, sorry peeps.

Actions speak louder than undercurrents. And if reaching out to every race, creed, religion, language and haircut isn't loud enough...

So no. Just no. We're looking for positive contributions danny, people that want to get involved because they agree with the concepts of civic nationalism and a small country looking after its own affairs.

And generally to keep things positive

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If you only want to attract the 45% who voted last time, then you're going to lose again. I really hope your views on this hold no sway.

So no. Just no. We're looking for positive contributions danny, people that want to get involved because they agree with the concepts of civic nationalism and a small country looking after its own affairs.

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You're not looking for contributions, you're looking for votes. To be specific, Yes needs to keep all those who voted Yes last time and at least split the difference between Yes and No plus one vote. That's what you need.

If you are unwilling to address any of the concerns that people had last time, you lose. I'm stunned (but not surprised) that you can't see that.

Furthermore, if you only want votes from people who "agree with the concepts of civic nationalism" (is that what you're saying?), then you've lost 4 votes in my household, because none of us agree with the concepts of civic nationalism.

Nor do the hosts of the party I was at on Friday (who voted Yes last time). Nor does the husband above I was telling you about who was No but is now Yes.

Many non-nationalists voted Yes last time. Now you don't want their "contributions" any more.

...Furthermore, if you only want votes from people who "agree with the concepts of civic nationalism" (is that what you're saying?), then you've lost 4 votes in my household, because none of us agree with the concepts of civic nationalism...

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Ah well.

Civic nationalism, also known as liberal nationalism, is a kind of nationalism identified by political philosophers who believe in a non-xenophobic form of nationalism compatible with values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights.

Too busy reaching out to all the EU and non-EU people living here saying we'll stand up for them. Encouraging people to move here from abroad (which includes England). Protesting and fighting against deportations. Accepting refugees and making them welcome...although we can't do anything about the weather, sorry peeps.

Actions speak louder than undercurrents. And if reaching out to every race, creed, religion, language and haircut isn't loud enough...

So no. Just no. We're looking for positive contributions danny, people that want to get involved because they agree with the concepts of civic nationalism and a small country looking after its own affairs.

Anyway, my ex-No friend has just emailed me to say the blog weepiper posted pretty much sums up his views and he intends to share it with others who are swithering.

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The blogpost is full of anti-Brexit platitudes and ultimately makes the case for being better off in the EU... And I infer from your posts above that this is good reasoning as grounds for winning people over for indyref2. Parallel with the libdem position

all of which brought on passionate argument from Lexiters last year.... I'm surprised no one is making that case on this thread. Scotland has just been freed from the shackles of the EU, and now after such an epic win the bigger struggle has just begun, so why now fight to re-join the eu and paint Brexit in such reactionary colours? Is I presume somewhat how it goes......

The blogpost is full of anti-Brexit platitudes and ultimately makes the case for being better off in the EU... And I infer from your posts above that this is good reasoning as grounds for winning people over for indyref2. Parallel with the libdem position

all of which brought on passionate argument from Lexiters last year.... I'm surprised no one is making that case on this thread. Scotland has just been freed from the shackles of the EU, and now after such an epic win the bigger struggle has just begun, so why now fight to re-join the eu and paint Brexit in such reactionary colours? Is I presume somewhat how it goes......

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Well, no, as usual I don't think there's only two choices. I don't think it's about being "hard Brexit" or "I love EU" and nothing else.

The UK government is heading off like a concussed Basil Fawlty saying "don't listen to him; he's from Barcelona." And "I mentioned war once but I think I got away with it". We have an opportunity to say we'd rather book into another hotel.

The blog writer says they'd rather be in an independent Scotland that's outside the EU than in a U.K. where the Tory hard right is rewriting the statute book. I agree.

there are two choices - 1. stay in an EU-free UK, or 2. an in an EU-Independent-Scotland

And if 2. then theres the question on what grounds to win the argument for it...this is central (from the blog):

For me, it’s more about what sort of country I want to live in and what I fear Brexit Britain is going to look like. Specifically, I fear that we are going to become isolated from our neighbours, making it more difficult to travel in and work with Europe; that immigrants and other minorities are going to be made to feel increasingly unwelcome, no matter how much of a positive contribution they make; that the Tories will use the turmoil of Brexit as an excuse to cosy up to Trump’s America as they busily dismantle the welfare state, the NHS, employment rights and hard-won social and environmental protections; that policies that were until recently considered as pretty far right (like bringing back the death penalty) will become mainstream.

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etc
I'm just surprised no Lexiters have an issue with any of this

The fact that the Torys are going on like Basil Fawlty shouldn't make a difference...Nigel Farage was going on like Enoch Powell....aren't there bigger issues at stake?

Not sure what you're on about to be honest, ska. I think you may have misunderstood what people on the left have been saying about Brexit, and this isn't really the place to discuss that. It has been thoroughly discussed elsewhere but if you want to tag me in on another of the threads I'll try to answer your queries. Not being rude, but you don't seem to have understood the Lexit argument (or at least what you've set out above isn't it).

But I think there's several points that are distinct concepts and which shouldn't be confused:

1. The assumption that all *voters* voting Leave did so in support of the UKIP-y xenophobic agenda. There is no evidence they did.

2. Pointing that out does not preclude me from criticising UKIP or the xenophobic agenda of the Brexit hard right.

3. Nor does it preclude me from criticising the free market zeal of the Tory Brexit negotiation team or be appalled by the implications of the "great reform bill". (We are looking at a Tory right with no opposition in Parliament, not even an neoliberal Labour one).

4. None of the above requires me to be a fan of the EU.

5. The Scottish electorate returned a large Remain majority. This - amongst other things - makes the dynamic different here.

6. That still doesn't mean an independent Scotland needs to rejoin the EU. (And, subclause, I personally don't think it should).

6. That still doesn't mean an independent Scotland needs to rejoin the EU. (And, subclause, I personally don't think it should).

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not sure about the misunderstanding, I think we're much on the same page, points 1 to 5 we agree on and I don't think differently, but 6 is problematic as the blog post and general indyref2 argument will be made on staying in the EU in some form... And that's where the contradiction lies. Holding the referendum asap is part of that argument to stay in.

the lexit&Indy position would be better to crash out of the EU and only then have a referendum, which would force an additional "should a now independent Scotland join the eu" referendum.
..as it happens this might yet be what comes to pass, if westminster successfuly stalls the timing.