And if you're too stupid to tell the difference between a JW offering you a Watchtower magazine and an armed assailant shooting at you with a firearm, you shouldn't be wasting oxygen, let alone driving.

Very nice.

This is a line of reasoning I hear all the time from gun enthusiasts. You're just an idiot if you lack the skill. All that's needed is weapons training.

But the real world (especially the civilian world) just isn't like that. A large majority of individuals will never be able to competently and safely handle lethal weapons under the insanely stressful circumstances of a life and death encounter. Trained policemen inadvertently wound and kill innocent bystanders and fellow officers at appalling rates, in large part because of the mind-blowing adrenalin and anxiety levels involved—and these are people with training! Dumb this down to the 'average citizen' level and the outcomes get even worse.

Yes, I know, you're highly trained, you'd never do something that stupid, anyone can learn to shoot, etc. etc. etc.... but in the real world, when guns are drawn and bullets start flying, all bets are off. The intense emotional stress guarantees "sub-optimal outcomes".

This is a line of reasoning I hear all the time from gun enthusiasts. You're just an idiot if you lack the skill. All that's needed is weapons training.

But the real world (especially the civilian world) just isn't like that. A large majority of individuals will never be able to competently and safely handle lethal weapons under the insanely stressful circumstances of a life and death encounter. Trained policemen inadvertently wound and kill innocent bystanders and fellow officers at appalling rates, in large part because of the mind-blowing adrenalin and anxiety levels involved—and these are people with training! Dumb this down to the 'average citizen' level and the outcomes get even worse.

Yes, I know, you're highly trained, you'd never do something that stupid, anyone can learn to shoot, etc. etc. etc.... but in the real world, when guns are drawn and bullets start flying, all bets are off. The intense emotional stress guarantees "sub-optimal outcomes".

In reading these types of discussions with advice of "running people over" or shooting them; it's rare for the people giving such advice to speak from experience. Last year, a nurse that I worked with was on his way to visit his sick mother, early in the AM. At a stop sign, three men walked in front of his car and a fourth tried to open the passenger door. His thoughts were "If I run over them, it's my word against there's, leaving the scene, law suits, etc." His response was to get out of the car with his son's baseball bat, walk up to the largest man and hit him in the mouth with the bat...they all ran. He was psychologically prepared to use extreme violence; most people aren't.

There is another alternative to a gun - BassPro Shops and other stores that cater to people who hunt and fish offer a product that is much like pepper spray but targted against bears. A little "Spray of Nate'" for those who are old enough to remember that Ad should do the trick when someone raps on your window and asks you to lower your window. As I understand it, the product has quite a range since you obviously don't want the bear close enough to take a bite out of your hide. A little practice and the element of suprise should solve the problem for those who do not like to carry guns in their vehicles.

First off, I honestly think you'll be perfectly safe. Few thugs are going to drive 100 miles out into the boonies to mug someone. Most people you encounter will be fellow travelers - give them a chat!

Quote from: Jake21209

There is another alternative to a gun - BassPro Shops and other stores that cater to people who hunt and fish offer a product that is much like pepper spray but targted against bears. A little "Spray of Nate'" for those who are old enough to remember that Ad should do the trick when someone raps on your window and asks you to lower your window. As I understand it, the product has quite a range since you obviously don't want the bear close enough to take a bite out of your hide. A little practice and the element of suprise should solve the problem for those who do not like to carry guns in their vehicles.

Good idea. Buy a fair sized can, one that looks like a small fire extinguisher - the bigger they are, the greater discharge volume and range they have. They cost all of $20+ or so, and a direct hit will stop any creature on four legs, much less a puny human.

Most crimes like that are crimes of opportunity. No they don't drive out 100 miles looking for the possibility. They might just take the opportunity if they happen to see you. The spray is a great idea too. I just prefer to take a big man with me!

There is another alternative to a gun - BassPro Shops and other stores that cater to people who hunt and fish offer a product that is much like pepper spray but targted against bears. A little "Spray of Nate'" for those who are old enough to remember that Ad should do the trick when someone raps on your window and asks you to lower your window. As I understand it, the product has quite a range since you obviously don't want the bear close enough to take a bite out of your hide. A little practice and the element of suprise should solve the problem for those who do not like to carry guns in their vehicles.

the problem with that is trying to spary someone outside of your car when you are in your car. You could very easily just fill your car up with bear spray and that would be a very bad thing or hit the window and have it spray right back at you.

That's very similar to the situation where you draw your gun to dissuade an assailant and they capture the gun from you. Now what?

Anyway, this is getting off track. In literally hundreds of "camping" sites across the continent, only once have I felt threatened. Slow-moving tires on nearby gravel at 03:00 is a not a good thing to hear.

I left.

The real point is: there's absolutely no substitute for being on location at the break of day. Or the end of it, for that matter. Camping at a good photolocation is rewarding in many ways beside the great pictures that usually result.

There is another alternative to a gun - BassPro Shops and other stores that cater to people who hunt and fish offer a product that is much like pepper spray but targted against bears.

Having myself accidently once sort of sprayed bear spay in the face of a friend, I would urge uttmost care if you decide to carry some. Total blindness can last 30 mins or more and is extremely painful.

Like all weapons, the chances of hurting yourself or somebody by mistake far outnumber the actual self-protection value.

Jonathan, I tend to agree with most of your logic in this post, but one thing bothers me: yes, shooting a moving target is difficult when the movement is perpendicular or angled to your line of sight, but when the target is moving straight toward you, isn't it actually easier to hit it, given that it is only getting bigger and bigger as it gets closer to you? Stress aside, of course.

A target moving directly toward you is the easiest moving target to hit, yes. Theoretically. But when the target is in a vehicle that has the capability of squashing you like a bug or tossing you through the air like a toy when it hits you, and the driver has made it clear that something along those lines is exactly what he intends, stress is not aside, it's grabbing you by the balls, squeezing them with an iron fist, and giving them a vigorous yank for good measure.

Another thing to consider is that not all roads/trails are smooth; the approaching vehicle (and anyone inside) may very well be bouncing up and down and/or jostling from side to side from bumps or potholes enough to make a very challenging target. And if I was driving the vehicle, I'd be ducking down as much as I could and still be able to see to steer, to give the assailant the smallest possible exposed target.

Like all weapons, the chances of hurting yourself or somebody by mistake far outnumber the actual self-protection value.

That statement is not true; if it was, nobody would make weapons. Having a weapon does pose a non-zero risk that it may be used to harm you, but intelligently managed, that risk is much smaller than the benefit of the protection it can provide. It is common to see such statements used to discourage gun ownership, but when you look at the statistics on which they are based, you find some major flaws in how the statistics are presented. There are two common errors that promote this fallacy:

Incidents where a violent act is prevented because the intended victim convinced the would-be assailant that he or she had a gun are not included in the statistics. Many such incidents are not reported to the authorities due to concerns that the intended victim will become a target of criminal prosecution. These concerns are especially well-founded in states like California, where it is not uncommon for the victim to go to jail and the attacker go free.

Incidents where firearms are used are creatively reclassified to inflate the risk of accidental misuse. One flagrant example of this is a study that combined gang shootings involving minors and incidents where small children found a gun and accidentally shot a family member or friend into the same category to inflate the count of "accidental shootings by minors" category.

When you take an unbiased look at the statistics, owning a gun is between 3 and 10 times more likely to be beneficial than harmful, depending on whether you assume all incidents of defensive non-use (victim displaying gun to attacker, but not actually firing it) are reported or what percentage you estimate are not reported.

Lots of firearms talk here, and I hope that doesn't scare the OP by instilling more fear. (I'm a gun owner, advanced marksman, and licensed to carry concealed, but hate to see someone's concerns get frothed up too much.) I've stayed in my vehicle, on the ground beside it, in campgrounds, at the end of dirt roads, etc. Common sense and an awareness of one's surroundings is useful whether in the city, on the road, or in the woods. One is more likely to encounter problems with their unattended vehicle, than while in the vehicle. Don't leave gear in the vehicle, even if out of sight. Rental vehicles and those with stuff that look "touristy" are prime targets. Out of state license plates are also targeted. My daughter just lost three cameras, an iPod and a new Mac laptop, etc. from her vehicle while simply walking her dog for a few minutes at beach access area. Everything was out of sight, under the seat, but she had the newest car (of five in the parking area) and out of state plates. This was on the Oregon coast and they've had a rash of these break-ins.

If one would like to add some camping nights, but doesn't want to fly with gear, you might consider renting from REI when you arrive to the area. Lots of locations available.

stop at rest points where there are others stopped. period. parking alone is never a good idea, unless you're out IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE, and the road you came in on doesn't lead to some weirdo cannabilistic cultist encampment 2mi down from where you are. those places probably DO exist...

so.... put the "crazy trucker following me for hundreds of miles just to assault me" attitude away, and use the brain God gave you. Even though I'm a 6'4" 300lb guy(ya I know I'm fat), I still don't park anywhere that there isn't a light shining on the car. I'm not scared, but just prefer to play it smart when I travel. Besides, if you get yourself a pair of those eye covers that you get on planes, it blocks the light out. Rest stops right along side the road are a great place to stay, generally free, and since you're a woman, generally have a toilet to use, so no hiding behind the bushes when nature calls .

just be smart, and think twice about where you decide to stay. and don't let fear grip your life. enjoy your trip!

-Dan

<EDIT> and if you're in California, DO NOT CARRY A LOADED FIREARM!!!!!!!!! it is a felony, and CHP doesn't like to find a .380 under the seat, no matter how "pretty and alone" you are. my uncle was CHP for 24 years, and he has some stories to tell, believe me. you don't want to have that ruin your trip. pepper spray works well, the bear kind is best, but can be a bit unwieldly. a big heavy baseball bat would be best. HICKORY is still king for personal defense IMO. and ALWAYS have your cellphone on. ALWAYS....

Lots of firearms talk here, and I hope that doesn't scare the OP by instilling more fear. (I'm a gun owner, advanced marksman, and licensed to carry concealed, but hate to see someone's concerns get frothed up too much.) I've stayed in my vehicle, on the ground beside it, in campgrounds, at the end of dirt roads, etc. Common sense and an awareness of one's surroundings is useful whether in the city, on the road, or in the woods. One is more likely to encounter problems with their unattended vehicle, than while in the vehicle. Don't leave gear in the vehicle, even if out of sight. Rental vehicles and those with stuff that look "touristy" are prime targets. Out of state license plates are also targeted. My daughter just lost three cameras, an iPod and a new Mac laptop, etc. from her vehicle while simply walking her dog for a few minutes at beach access area. Everything was out of sight, under the seat, but she had the newest car (of five in the parking area) and out of state plates. This was on the Oregon coast and they've had a rash of these break-ins.

If one would like to add some camping nights, but doesn't want to fly with gear, you might consider renting from REI when you arrive to the area. Lots of locations available.