Oh dear, poor Lottie has a sprained wrist. (Probably from jumping on and off the bed). The vet has given her some Rimadyl and she was also going to give her an injection of some anti inflammatory but as she was going to give it to Lottie in her neck and I asked for another site the vet decided not to give it to her. She said that it was a thick needle with a thick serum and it would hurt too much any where else-that the neck had fewer nerves to cause pain???? Did I do the right thing? The Rimadyl don't appear to have stopped her from limping yet. What would you have done?
Julie and the girls

sramirez

31st March 2006, 04:13 PM

Oh Julie, so sorry to hear about the sprained wrist :(

I purchased a little set of stairs a couple years ago for my 3 pups to use - esp. next to my bed. Every time one of them looks like they might just "jump" off the bed, I remind them they're to use the stairs! Now that I have an "extra-fluffy" semi-retired ole' gal, who never got to sit on a bed before coming to our house - she esp. loves it :)

Hope Lottie starts feeling better soon. My Sasha has had a number of neck strains from rough-housing - I usually just put her on a couple days of baby aspirin and she's fine.

Sheri

judy

31st March 2006, 10:53 PM

... she was also going to give her an injection of some anti inflammatory but as she was going to give it to Lottie in her neck and I asked for another site the vet decided not to give it to her. She said that it was a thick needle with a thick serum and it would hurt too much any where else-that the neck had fewer nerves to cause pain???? ...

Did you ask for another site to be injected related to SM risks? I've worried about that.

Zack was given two injections, one for Pepcid and one for Chlorpromazine, in the back of the neck, and he screamed and he started furiously trying to rub the area with his back foot, as when dogs scratch their necks. I expressed sympathy and concern, as i was holding him still for the shots, and the vet was very dismissive about it, she implied he was just trying to get attention, she said it couldn't be hurting him all that much, impossible, as if he was being a drama king. I was surprised at this. It would not be in character for Zack to pretend to be in pain.

One safe anti-inflamation thing is Wobenzym. I 've used it for tendonitis, people use it for arthritis and many other things, and i've heard of people giving it to dogs. when i broke my arm, i took homeopathic stuff, arnica and something else for broken bones. it may be just coincidence but the injury healed very fast. if you have a homeopathic store, maybe you could ask for some advice as to what might help a sprain.

So sorry to hear about it, i hope she'll be pain free soon.

Karlin

31st March 2006, 11:49 PM

she implied he was just trying to get attention,

You know, with that attitude I'd be inclined to look for a different vet. I do not think animals are drama queens or kings -- and the extreme sensitivity of cavaliers in the neck area is very well known anecdotally. MOST vets I have met say 'cavaliers are wimps about injections'. I don't believe this to be true; on the contrary, if they are suffering to the degree that seems likely from SM, mild to severe, I think they are incredibly stoic amd brave. Some dogs will yelp at injections as sometimes vets will accidentally pinch or hit a nerve -- we have probably all had that experience ourselves with an injection. But real discomfort I think tends to come from the fact that many cavaliers ARE extra sensitive in the neck because most seem to have at least the malformation in the skull -- a kind of spur -- that blocks the flow of the fluid around the brain and down the spine. This increases the pressure which probably at the very least makes them more sensitive in the neck even if they never develop syringomyelia.

I recommend (for anybody! :) )printing out Dr Clare Rusbridge's information sheet and perhaps the symptom sheet from my SM website -- www.sm.cavaliertalk.com -- and bringing that to your vets for their general files. It is a good way to at least familiarise them with this breed issue and also the Rusbridge sheet indicates some estimated numbers affected. The files are right there to be downloaded as Word documents so you can print them out easily on your own computer, or email them as attachments to your vets. You can of course steer them to the website itself. Its content has been read and OK'd by several researchers/neurologists so it is not 'just my opinion'. :)

Most vets in North America are not too familiar with the breed and even in the UK/Ireland where cavaliers are extremely common, vets are NOT familiar with SM at all. Good vets will be interested in learning more and will always take their clients' concerns seriously. Mine have been really great about listening and wanting to learn more (all but one actually who also gave me the 'cavaliers are wimps, always yelping at injections' line too... :x. But I never go to him. :) ).

Personally regarding the rimadyl/antiinflammatory -- I can't imagine why there isn't some oral antiinflammatory that could be given as an alternative. I'll ask Rory's mom to look at this thread as she's a vet student.

Just FYI when I had Leo in for his lepto injection (the only one I give him annually now, as he likes to swim which potentially exposes him to lepto) I asked the vet to not give it in his neck and before I could say anything he gave it in his back instead. Leo went crazy in the same way Zack did -- was clearly very aggravated and tried to reach ther spot by scratching and nipping. The vet says sometimes the injection stings a bit and I know this may have been it but as Leo has a syrinx I suspect he was very uncomfortable from the injection. Next time I will ask for it in his thigh or somewhere else.

Davy

1st April 2006, 12:40 AM

I do not think animals are drama queens or kings

You have not met my SiÃ¢nE, when I first took her on she was the biggest drama queen aâ€™ going. :lol:

But she is slowly learning that silly things like getting her nails caught in the hair of her ears doesnâ€™t need a big screaming drama, just a little shout to let me know so I can free the nail.

Its always if something is new to her and after a while she will take no notice of what is being done once she has got used to what is about to happen.

One of the reason she ended up is care is because she would scream every time she got her injections. Her owner could not cope learning to inject and knowing his dog was going to scream at him, so he signed her over to the RSPCA and they knew they had to home her with someone who was used to giving injections. I did have my heart in my mouth in the beginning even though I was used to injecting, but now when she sees the needles she runs into the room where the injection takes place and waits for me.

I inject her twice a day; found the back a problem to inject into 1. Not enough skin 2. She has to look lovely into my face and wonâ€™t turn around.

So have to use the neck but she has a large scruff so I tend to use the side of her neck, as far from her head and spine as I can go. I am lucky, I have the time to work out the best place to inject and SiÃ¢nE thinks sheâ€™s getting a gentle massager every day.

The vets have never had to inject her in front of me, but I know the needle is not going near her till I have made sure the site they use is ok with me.

Forest

1st April 2006, 01:27 AM

[Personally regarding the rimadyl/antiinflammatory -- I can't imagine why there isn't some oral antiinflammatory that could be given as an alternative. I'll ask Rory's mom to look at this thread as she's a vet student.

Thanks Karlin I would appreciate it. The vet just didn't give the injection when I preferred another site to the neck. She actually said that the neck has fewer nerves and so it wouldn't hurt as much there???and that the needle was too thick for anywhere else? So I am a bit confused and as she hasn't shown any improvement yet I don't know what to say when I go back if they suggest the injection in the neck again. Your advice is much appreciated.
Julie and the girls

judy

1st April 2006, 06:14 AM

she implied he was just trying to get attention,

You know, with that attitude I'd be inclined to look for a different vet. I do not think animals are drama queens or kings -- and the extreme sensitivity of cavaliers in the neck area is very well known anecdotally. MOST vets I have met say 'cavaliers are wimps about injections'. I don't believe this to be true; on the contrary, if they are suffering to the degree that seems likely from SM, mild to severe, I think they are incredibly stoic amd brave. Some dogs will yelp at injections as sometimes vets will accidentally pinch or hit a nerve -- we have probably all had that experience ourselves with an injection. But real discomfort I think tends to come from the fact that many cavaliers ARE extra sensitive in the neck because most seem to have at least the malformation in the skull -- a kind of spur -- that blocks the flow of the fluid around the brain and down the spine. This increases the pressure which probably at the very least makes them more sensitive in the neck even if they never develop syringomyelia.Just FYI when I had Leo in for his lepto injection (the only one I give him annually now, as he likes to swim which potentially exposes him to lepto) I asked the vet to not give it in his neck and before I could say anything he gave it in his back instead. Leo went crazy in the same way Zack did -- was clearly very aggravated and tried to reach ther spot by scratching and nipping. The vet says sometimes the injection stings a bit and I know this may have been it but as Leo has a syrinx I suspect he was very uncomfortable from the injection. Next time I will ask for it in his thigh or somewhere else.

That visit when the vet said Zack could not really be in pain from those injections was the last time I had him in there. I did have a long talk with the other vet from that practice two days later on the phone, and that was the time when she told me the next step was endoscopy or exploratory surgery, and that short of those interventions, there was nothing more that could be done for Zack. I did deliver a stool sample to them that day to test for giardia etc, but i haven't had Zack there again. I saw another vet that same day. I liked the other vet, she is sensitive, humble and thoughtful, and intelligent, but she was stumped by Zack's condition too, so I moved on to a third vet who apparently made the right diagnosis and put an end to his chronic suffering and deteriorating condition.

Zack didn't scream at all when he had his last puppy shot in the back of the neck, so i figured the shots that he got that made him scream involved a medication that caused stinging or some more extreme kind of irritation.

I think you make a really good point about the courage and strength of cavaliers, the way they cope with various painful and disabling conditions.

I have printed up stuff from your site to fax to all three vets but only actually provided it to one of them, the last one that I plan to use as my main one for now. But i will fax these things to the other vets too, in hopes that it will help raise their level of knowledge and help any affected dogs they may encounter. All three showed the ignorance you speak of. The first one I saw when i first got Zack and we were talking about possible causes of his scratching, told me right up front that...the way she put it was, "How many dogs of this breed to you think we see in this practice?', the answer being that it's extremely rare. I think her point was that it was unrealistic to expect them to be familiar with such conditions? i guess she felt defensive just because i asked about whether the scratching could be from SM and she didn't know what SM was (she had never heard of it). The second vet said, in response to my questioning whether Zack might have SM, "You would be able to feel the skull malformation on examination." But she wasn't dogmatic about it. I know she will be glad to receive info about it.

about oral anti-inflamatory drugs, i know they make liquid advil for kids. And Sheri's idea about baby aspirin sounds reasonable. You would probably want to be cautious about giving those drugs orally if there's any reason to suspect the dog has any stomach problems since they are harsh to the stomach, and are one of the two leading causes of stomach ulcer disease in humans.

rory

1st April 2006, 06:25 AM

Do you know what it was she wanted to give?? Maybe it was adequan... Which is white.

I would have x-rays if you haven't already.

The neck area does have the most skin so it is certainly the easiest place to give injections, especially large amounts. I think Woodhaven on the other board mentioned that perhaps these types of injections would be different than vaccines?? I don't know. Especially since I don't know exactly what it is they wanted to give...

Sorry your little girl is hurting! :( I think if the Rimadyl isn't helping, I would take her back. Could be more serious than they originally thought.

Some dogs are overly dramatic, I think. LIke the ones who start screaming when you get the nail clippers out before you've even touched them... :roll: And I think it is important to not coddle dogs because then they are rewarded for this behavior which only exacerbates it and makes it worse. Like kids when they fall down. if you coddle them and say, "Oh!! Poor baaaaaaaaaaaby!!! Awww!!! So sad!! Poor baaby! Must have really hurt!!!" Then I feel like they're more likely to scream louder the next time. But if you kindof encoourage them to be brave about it, they learn that it's not so bad and that crying behavior isn't rewarded.

Not to say that all painful behavior in animals is fake!! It can be difficult to know when an animal is truly in pain and when they are just overreacting. Puppies definitely tend to overreact. It's instinctual, I think.

Forest

1st April 2006, 07:17 AM

Thanks Rory's mum :) The liquid for the injection was actually a yellowy colour. Is it true that they have fewer nerves in the neck? Lottie is such a good brave little girl. Unfortunately for her she has had many visits to the vet as she has IBD and last year she also had a bulging ear drum which was operated on and discovered to be a cyst right at the ear drum. She is behaving quite normally except for the fact that she limps. It started a couple of weeks ago just when she used to get up from a nap but now it is most of the time. Anyhow I will be taking her back to see what they think next. I was just worried whether I should have let her have the injection in her neck.
Thanks
Julie and the girls

rory

1st April 2006, 07:18 AM

I think you need to get a better workup to figure out what the problem is. Doesn't sound like a sprain to me. If it was, it would be getting better, not worse. I would want x-rays at least. How old is Lottie? Is it always the same leg she limps on? Does it seem painful when you squeeze her joints or manipulate her legs? I wouldn't want to just treat her symptoms without a proper diagnosis. What did the vet do to determine it was a sprain?

Forest

1st April 2006, 07:30 AM

Wow that was quick! Yes it is always the same leg- her left front one. It does hurt when her leg is manipulated. That is how the vet said it was a sprained wrist. Lottie was 3 last August. She has given her 2 Rimadyl a day for 6 days and then one a day for another 6 days and if she wasn't better then they would give her an X-Ray. I haven't noticed any real improvement since Wednesday when she started taking the tablets.
Would you have let her have the injection in the neck?
Thanks so much for your help. I really appreciate it.
Julie and the girls

rory

1st April 2006, 07:33 AM

No - I would hold off on the injection only because if it is just a sprain I'd think it would respond to the rimadyl (Which is an non-steroidal antiinflammatory like advil or tylenol). Not sure what she wanted to inject. I don't really think it would hurt, but I don't know. There's a lot we don't know about SM - and I assume that is your concern w/ not wanting the injection in the neck?

If I thought it would make a difference for her and her recovery I'd say do it. But i sounds like she is not responding to the Rimadyl and if it were just a sprain, I think she would. So I think the next step is an x=ray to see if there is more going on there.

Forest

1st April 2006, 07:43 AM

Thanks so much for all of your advice Kendall. I will make an appointment for the next time that my usual vet is on. He knows her so well. He says she is his "special girl". Yeah you are right- it is the SM that I worried about. No use creating problems if I don't have to- right? :)
Thanks again
Julie and the girls

rory

1st April 2006, 07:45 AM

Thanks so much for all of your advice Kendall. I will make an appointment for the next time that my usual vet is on. He knows her so well. He says she is his "special girl". Yeah you are right- it is the SM that I worried about. No use creating problems if I don't have to- right? :)
Thanks again
Julie and the girls

Good. It will be good to have her seen by her regular vet. And I agree about not creating problems if you can avoid it! Even if we're just being overly paranoid -- I think it's OK.

Karlin

2nd April 2006, 02:31 PM

And I think it is important to not coddle dogs because then they are rewarded for this behavior which only exacerbates it and makes it worse.

Yes agree with this and other comments where the 'drama queen' behaviour can be learned and if we respond by given attention, that rewards the dog and encourages more behaviour of this sort. My remarks apply more to vets who make these kinds of assumptions or are dismissive when we express concern about the possibility of SM, if they have been told by us that it is a serious breed concern, not the extremely rare condition it would otherwise be in other breeds.

The neck does have lots of loose skin and is normally a good place to do injections. Some neurologists recommend avoiding injections into the area around the back of the neck as that is where syrinxes first form. However Leo my SM boy has never been bothered by neck area injections. I do now ask for them to be done elsewhere because I know he has a syrinx in that area.