Warlordtrooper:I would argue that obscenity is no different then hate speech. Which has been determined to be protected by the first amendment.

You could argue that all you like, but the Supreme Court disagrees. The full thing is a bit too complicated to go into, but the short of it is twofold: First, the Court puts the highest protections of all on political speech. Obscenity isn't political in nature, and attaching it to a statement that IS political doesn't make it so. Hate speech, while vile, is arguably, and perhaps intrinsically, political in nature.

Second, it comes down to viewpoint-based vs. content-based restrictions. The cursing on a sign is purely content-based, since it applies across the board, no matter why someone is using it. There are similar cases where towns put a blanket prohibition on billboards and the like. There still has to be a reason, but the standard is much lower than in: Viewpoint-Based Restrictions, which is prohibiting a certain point of view. A law banning hate speech would fall under this latter category. Imagine a law allowing anti-abortion messages, but prohibiting pro-choice mesages delivered in exactly the same manner. The government can't say "viewpoint-based restriction is okay in this case, but not that case" because there's no hard-and-fast distinction, and creating a case-by-case basis would amount to nothing more than "only the speech we like is permitted," which is EXACTLY what the Court wants to avoid. Result: Viewpoint-based prohibitions are not allowed.

Tats has banged the drum about incitement to violence, but he either doesn't know or is wilfully ignorant of how high a bar "incitement to violence" is. (Taking all bets! Is Tats stupid or dishonest!?) In fact, there are specific cases in relatively recent history that actually did deal with neo-Nazi and Klan rallies where the Court explicitly ruled that the rhetoric didn't rise to incitement of violence. As for Fighting Words, that doesn't mean that "if it makes me want to hit you, that means it's not protected speech." It has a far more nuanced definition, and we should all be very glad of that.

Tatsuma:SubBass49: Everyone talks about freedom of speech, but few mention that that freedom is from GOVERNMENT intervention in your speech. It doesn't preclude your boss from firing you, people from thinking you're a douchebag, and other such repercussions of your "free speech."

While I may disagree with Tatsuma on matters of Israeli politics & zionism, I agree that neo-nazi fascists and white-power scumbags ought to get their asses beat down at every possible turn. Sure, the people doing it will have to accept legal repercussions when they commit crimes in attacking such morons, but that's part of the deal.

Yup. And just because they can shut themselves up and not yell 'KILL ALL THE KIKES' for a 20 minutes march does not completely nullify the fact that this is what their pamphlets and propaganda arms are screaming all day long over the internet where anonymity is much easier and harder to prosecute.

Therefore they have to be taken up for it whenever they crawl out of their trailers, and beat the shiat out of them until they return. Whack a Nazi all day 'err day.

And yes, even if that results in assault charges.

So, it is wrong for neo-nazis to incite violence against someone because of their beliefs but it is OK for jews to incite violence against someone because of their beliefs? You are an even lower form of scum than they are.

Warlordtrooper:gonegirl: Given that the political views of most KKK members are generally virulently anti-socialism, this is sort of a touching incident of bipartisanship in action.

The KKK and the Nazis, despite their political differences found a way to reach across the aisle and agree that immigrants are just awful, then work together on the issue. They're actually more functional than most of the legislative branch of the current government.

redsquid:OK let me get this straight- you got beat up by skins when you were younger so you hate them and call for their violent suppression.I get beaten by Cubans and I call for immigration reform and cultural assimilation and I'm 'spewing hatred'? Go back to Isreal you farking moron.Jews don't have a monopoly on victimhood.

Nazis, cubans, what's the difference!

I'm advocating to stop fascists who want to destroy the heart of American society.You are advocating stopping Americans from doing what they want with their money, and live their lives the way they want to live them. Oh and stop more brown people from coming to America, because they won't do with their money and lives what you want them to do.

SDRR:iheartscotch: Tatsuma: iheartscotch: Why are you guys paying attention to these trolls?

Let's see, 12 million dead in concentration camps, an untold number of African-Americans lynched, and again an untold number of racial attacks and murders in the last 60 years on American soil by these farks who are basically domestic terrorists.

I had the shiat beaten out of me repeatedly as a teenager for having Jewish blood by skinheads. Yeah, it's really a wonder why I'd react strongly to people who often assaulted me, and advocate for my death on a daily basis.

I thought you live in Israel; are there skin heads in Israel?

By paying attention to them; you give them power. The way you beat trolls is by ignoring them.

random story but my wife and I went to a Street Dogs show in Atlanta last year where a gang of skinheads showed up that pretty much ruined the show for everyone. It was really terrible especially considering the positive message the band puts out.

skullkrusher:albatros183: ph0rk: Tatsuma: Smash the fash, not worth having a discussion when a boot to the face has a much better effect on them

Indeed, we should band together in our fear and hatred of fascists. It's us against them. You're with us or against us.

Really did you miss WORLD WAR II?

/you want to argue motivation, you want to argue politics fine but the fact is that Germany tried to take over the world, they murdered 12-18 million because of their race or their politics or their nationality

so yes with 57 million dead we should band together and fight fascists.

I dare you to go up to a WWII vet and tell him what you just said here..

ModernPrimitive01:random story but my wife and I went to a Street Dogs show in Atlanta last year where a gang of skinheads showed up that pretty much ruined the show for everyone. It was really terrible especially considering the positive message the band puts out.

A couple of weeks ago, a guy stormed the stage at a Dropkick Murphys show and while on the stage, made a Nazi salute. The lead singer actually stopped singing, dropped his guitar, bumrushed the guy, punched him a few times then kicked him out of the stage, then returned to his mic and yelled 'farking Nazis are NOT welcomed to our shows' before they started playing a new song

Mock26:Keizer_Ghidorah: kortex: They have just as much right to protest as anyone else. That article is full of as much hatred as the KKK. Just let them protest and ignore them.

Mock26: Tatsuma: Smash the fash, not worth having a discussion when a boot to the face has a much better effect on them

Why am I not surprised that you are just as intolerant and hate filled as the KKK?

"Stop intolerating their intolerance! Everyone has a God-given right to preach and incite death and terror on those they hate! You're even worse than they are for demanding their hate and evil be stopped!"

That is the beauty, and ugliness, that is the 1st Amendment. And so long as they are not inciting death and terror and violence then I will defend with my life their right to say whatever they want. But, publicly saying that you hate black people or that jewish people are subhuman is not inciting death and terror.

Hey, hate speech is hate speech. I may be seen as the worst monster in the history of ever because I say this, but when it's Obviously Evil it shouldn't be tolerated. When you're having rallies and marches that are based around your perceived "superiority" and telling everyone to treat others as non-human and to abuse and destroy them every chance you get, your public speaking privileges should be revoked.

Now, let's start the slippery slopes, logical fallacies, cries of "You monster!", and how I'm just like Hitler.

Tatsuma:I'm advocating to stop fascists who want to destroy the heart of American society.You are advocating stopping Americans from doing what they want with their money, and live their lives the way they want to live them. Oh and stop more brown people from coming to America, because they won't do with their money and lives what you want them to do.

So yeah, you're spewing hatred.

Oh yeah- because Israel's open-arms immigration policy is a model for the rest of the world. You are a POS hypocrite.

the correct response to people that want a repeat of 57 million dead is a beatdown.

Exactly. I don't understand how that's hard to understand, or the fact that incitement to violence/fighting words are not free speech.

THEN WHY IS NO ONE STOPPING THESE GUYS FROM MARCHING?? THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME

Ask yourselfWhy aren't you?

There aren't any where I live, for one.

Oh, also, what they're doing isn't illegal, no matter how much Tats wishes it were.

Well I have no idea what's going on where you are but when there is violence and organizing for violence I tend to oppose that don't care what tats thinks, I agree on virtually nothing with him.If there are no nazis where you live great for you, your lucky, your probably wrong but if true great!your the one that said they do it all the time, assumed that was an eye witness rather than an internet tough guy response sorry.

Tatsuma:Feral_and_Preposterous: If they're so strong, why does a combined group of skinheads and KKK 'tards have trouble scraping 30 people together in Georgia?

Because most of them know that ARA and SHARP, as well as Law Enforcement, will be at the rallies, taking pictures and documenting every single person who is protesting in order who they are, which is a big pain in the ass when you're a criminal, therefore the vast majority stay home in order to be able to spread their propaganda and commit crimes more easily.

Feral_and_Preposterous: The author offers no concrete, indisputable facts about growing membership in these groups. Why would he want to imply otherwise? He wouldn't because then there wouldn't be a story. These groups always exaggerate or claim their numbers are growing. Who would listen to them if they claimed they were dinosaurs on the edge of extinction?

Because it's organizations like the SPLC who takes care of this, and no they are not dinosaurs on the verge of extinction, post-9/11 they have been exploding all over the place, especially post-Obama's 1st election.

Feral_and_Preposterous: I'm not saying racism is nonexistent; not saying there aren't plenty of bigots out there. It's just they tend to organize more along political lines than racial ones. The people that used to be clansmen now use other, less polarized means, to oppress people. You can't openly work to keep people down because of their skin color. You CAN work to keep thier economic class grovelling in the gutter; you CAN make it harder for them to grab their bootstraps and pull themselves out of the economic sewer. Don't believe me? Head on over to the Politics tab and read any random article.

Let me guess: White, middle-class, blue state, live in a major city

1.) No way to really prove or disprove this. Kind of my point. Evidence is lacking.

2.) If these groups are "exploding all over the place" it's weird I have yet to run across one (or even a member).

redsquid:Oh yeah- because Israel's open-arms immigration policy is a model for the rest of the world. You are a POS hypocrite.

I take it as a badge of honor to be called a piece of shiat by a man screaming about how Latinos should be speaking English and assimilate money and send their money oversea.

Keizer_Ghidorah:Hey, hate speech is hate speech. I may be seen as the worst monster in the history of ever because I say this, but when it's Obviously Evil it shouldn't be tolerated. When you're having rallies and marches that are based around your perceived "superiority" and telling everyone to treat others as non-human and to abuse and destroy them every chance you get, your public speaking privileges should be revoked.

Now, let's start the slippery slopes, logical fallacies, cries of "You monster!", and how I'm just like Hitler.

skullkrusher:iheartscotch: skullkrusher: albatros183: ph0rk: Tatsuma: Smash the fash, not worth having a discussion when a boot to the face has a much better effect on them

Indeed, we should band together in our fear and hatred of fascists. It's us against them. You're with us or against us.

Really did you miss WORLD WAR II?

/you want to argue motivation, you want to argue politics fine but the fact is that Germany tried to take over the world, they murdered 12-18 million because of their race or their politics or their nationality

so yes with 57 million dead we should band together and fight fascists.

I dare you to go up to a WWII vet and tell him what you just said here..

Tatsuma:ModernPrimitive01: random story but my wife and I went to a Street Dogs show in Atlanta last year where a gang of skinheads showed up that pretty much ruined the show for everyone. It was really terrible especially considering the positive message the band puts out.

A couple of weeks ago, a guy stormed the stage at a Dropkick Murphys show and while on the stage, made a Nazi salute. The lead singer actually stopped singing, dropped his guitar, bumrushed the guy, punched him a few times then kicked him out of the stage, then returned to his mic and yelled 'farking Nazis are NOT welcomed to our shows' before they started playing a new song

That was pretty farking awesome

yeah I saw that and it's great it happened. The Boston punk scene has had to deal with skinheads for too long. I think Mike from the Street Dogs would have done the same thing but most of the stupid sh&t happened during the opening bands. I even went to concert security and pointed it out but they did absolutely nothing. Afterwards I talked with the club's management who told me "we'll look into it"

albatros183:Well I have no idea what's going on where you are but when there is violence and organizing for violence I tend to oppose that don't care what tats thinks, I agree on virtually nothing with him.If there are no nazis where you live great for you, your lucky, your probably wrong but if true great!

I live in a small town. There are most certainly racists, but they are not KKK or ANP, and there have never been any marches here for me to do anything about.

your the one that said they do it all the time, assumed that was an eye witness rather than an internet tough guy response sorry

"They do it all the time" is an internet tough guy response?

I thought it was more of an observation based on years of following the news...but whatever floats your boat, dude.

the correct response to people that want a repeat of 57 million dead is a beatdown.

Exactly. I don't understand how that's hard to understand, or the fact that incitement to violence/fighting words are not free speech.

THEN WHY IS NO ONE STOPPING THESE GUYS FROM MARCHING?? THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME

Ask yourselfWhy aren't you?

There aren't any where I live, for one.

Oh, also, what they're doing isn't illegal, no matter how much Tats wishes it were.

In Western Mass, there are a few rallies and marches. And to be honest, they're well attended, and mostly by folks who mock and jeer. Here, they tend to focus on the brown folks and Eastern Europeans, because the black folks are fewer, and more likely to fight back, and the yellow folks are organized. The funny thing, as much as they turn their ire on the Quebecois and Eastern Europeans, and their fellow citizens from Puerto Rico, it only gets folks together to collectively mock them.

Don't get me wrong. In prisons, these white power thugs ARE a power to be reckoned with. Our prison system has done far more to cohese these folks than anything outside those walls, and that carries outside the walls, because a lot of cons have a hard time making it, and the gangs they join inside, and owe when they get out do offer them at least something. If we really want to end these hate groups, than taking a bite out of the for profit prison system is going to go a ways towards that end. Guys who wind up going to jail for pot do some decent time, and when they get there, they are faced with taking the protection of groups, or facing that time alone, and fairly vulnerable. La Eme has grown in power because of our prisons as well. If we were a wise people, we might think a bit before we s ...

Fun fact the first time someone tried to form a KKK chapter in Canada was in Quebec, they where rejected because they were papists :)

ModernPrimitive01:yeah I saw that and it's great it happened. The Boston punk scene has had to deal with skinheads for too long. I think Mike from the Street Dogs would have done the same thing but most of the stupid sh&t happened during the opening bands. I even went to concert security and pointed it out but they did absolutely nothing. Afterwards I talked with the club's management who told me "we'll look into it"

Meaning 'they paid us and didn't make any troubles, we'll turn a blind eye'. I knew the Boston scene, and that's been the attitude of 95% of club managers. It's a really really pervasive problem.

Still, at least Street Dogs could have covered 'Nazi Punks, Fark Off'. There's not a single band who shouldn't know it by heart and be ready to play it at the drop of a boot to a fascist's face.

Keizer_Ghidorah:Mock26: Keizer_Ghidorah: kortex: They have just as much right to protest as anyone else. That article is full of as much hatred as the KKK. Just let them protest and ignore them.

Mock26: Tatsuma: Smash the fash, not worth having a discussion when a boot to the face has a much better effect on them

Why am I not surprised that you are just as intolerant and hate filled as the KKK?

"Stop intolerating their intolerance! Everyone has a God-given right to preach and incite death and terror on those they hate! You're even worse than they are for demanding their hate and evil be stopped!"

That is the beauty, and ugliness, that is the 1st Amendment. And so long as they are not inciting death and terror and violence then I will defend with my life their right to say whatever they want. But, publicly saying that you hate black people or that jewish people are subhuman is not inciting death and terror.

Hey, hate speech is hate speech. I may be seen as the worst monster in the history of ever because I say this, but when it's Obviously Evil it shouldn't be tolerated. When you're having rallies and marches that are based around your perceived "superiority" and telling everyone to treat others as non-human and to abuse and destroy them every chance you get, your public speaking privileges should be revoked.

Now, let's start the slippery slopes, logical fallacies, cries of "You monster!", and how I'm just like Hitler.

Like it or not, hateful speech is protected by the Constitution in this country. But, hateful speech != hate speech. And so long as they are not breaking the law then their intolerant speech must be tolerated, legally speaking, of course. But, toleration is not the same as approval. Nor does it mean that you cannot speak out against them. For the record, I hate racists and scum like that. But, they have rights, and those rights must be upheld. Also, I agree with you. If their speech breaks the law in any way, shape, or form (fighting words, inciting violence, slander, libel, etc.) then the full weight of the law should come down on them.

And why would I call you a monster or compare you to Hitler? I have no beef with you for having an opinion that is different from mine. With Tatsuma, though, she/he has a long history of being a troll so I have no compunction with letting the invectives fly

Tatsuma:ModernPrimitive01: yeah I saw that and it's great it happened. The Boston punk scene has had to deal with skinheads for too long. I think Mike from the Street Dogs would have done the same thing but most of the stupid sh&t happened during the opening bands. I even went to concert security and pointed it out but they did absolutely nothing. Afterwards I talked with the club's management who told me "we'll look into it"

Meaning 'they paid us and didn't make any troubles, we'll turn a blind eye'. I knew the Boston scene, and that's been the attitude of 95% of club managers. It's a really really pervasive problem.

Still, at least Street Dogs could have covered 'Nazi Punks, Fark Off'. There's not a single band who shouldn't know it by heart and be ready to play it at the drop of a boot to a fascist's face.

yeah the skinheads seem to know the security guys so they were all buddy buddy. The worst part was it was an all ages show so they were picking on the kids there but not much I could do if I intervened except get myself and my wife hurt. I did pull a teenage girl to the side and try to get her to call the cops about them being inappropriate with her but she was too scared

As appalled as I an by the kkk and neo nazi groups' actions and beliefs, this liberal twatwaffle needs to DIAF. I mean really. Go sit in a commune andeat shrooms and smoke some weed ya farking hippie biatch.

ModernPrimitive01:yeah the skinheads seem to know the security guys so they were all buddy buddy. The worst part was it was an all ages show so they were picking on the kids there but not much I could do if I intervened except get myself and my wife hurt. I did pull a teenage girl to the side and try to get her to call the cops about them being inappropriate with her but she was too scared

She can't really be blamed for that, a bunch of skinheads as a pack can be pretty scary, especially when they are buddy with the security at a show and almost no one will do anything

Weaver95:To be fair, I think the cops just hate protests in general. It's a volatile situation, people are yelling at them and the cops know they are being filmed the whole time. They have to put up with whiny people on both sides of the fee speech zones and can't smash anyone's face in while trying to keep it orderly.

So I don't think that cop hates gays or loves the kkk. I think the cop probably wanted to throw ALL of them into a jail cell and get back to drinking coffee and eating doughnuts.

yeah the skinheads seem to know the security guys so they were all buddy buddy. The worst part was it was an all ages show so they were picking on the kids there but not much I could do if I intervened except get myself and my wife hurt. I did pull a teenage girl to the side and try to get her to call the cops about them being inappropriate with her but she was too scared

yeah the skinheads seem to know the security guys so they were all buddy buddy. The worst part was it was an all ages show so they were picking on the kids there but not much I could do if I intervened except get myself and my wife hurt. I did pull a teenage girl to the side and try to get her to call the cops about them being inappropriate with her but she was too scared

You know, you could have called the cops yourself.

wouldn't have mattered without one of the kids coming forward themselves. I call the cops, tell them I saw them grab the girl, she refuses to corroborate, at best I get kicked out of the club, at worst they let me and my wife stay in a room full of a dozen pissed off skinheads

I know if I cite it as a source I'll be laughed out of the room. Anything else I need to know about it?

Yeah, how it works, for one.

Look- I don't know how the Charlie Brown Cyclopedia is put together either, but if it doesn't serve my purposes for research, i don't need to.

You do need to if you want to be able to bash it properly. Remember in elementary school, how you couldn't cite the Encyclopedia in your bibliography? Same thing for Wikipedia, now. Nobody cites Wikipedia, they use it as a portal to sources. The entries serve as condensed summary of the sources cited. The veracity is based on the sources.

Tatsuma:albatros183: Fun fact the first time someone tried to form a KKK chapter in Canada was in Quebec, they where rejected because they were papists :)

Fun fact, an headline on the biggest newspaper in Quebec during WWII was 'No Jews is Too Many' asking to make sure that refugees on MS St-Louis would not be given safe harbor.

They had to turn back and about half of them ended up in the gas chambers.

wanna one up ?

fun fact the first actual chapter of the KKK was in my dads home town in BC.

/think maybe my grandfather was a member but not certain//also pretty much everyone sucked in the taking in refugees department, people hate jews, it is the reason we gave them a homeland in THE MOST CONTENTIOUS area of the world.///really should have just given them 20000 sq/mil of the sudan, no one would have noticed and they'd still be doing a lot of De-salination.

A shiatload of people on Fark clearly know shiat all about legal matters, as could be witnessed in the 'They didn't read his miranda rights!!' discussion, or in this thread where people believe that incitement to violence and fighting words are in fact Free Speech.

you don't get to shut down the first amendment just because you don't like what someone says. For my part, I prefer to see the Klan and the Nazis organizing marches and out in public. that way I know exactly where they are and what they're doing. loud and in public means they're not prepping to blow something up or murder their enemies. As a bonus, we get a free show and get to rip 'em apart online, in youtube videos, blogs and twitter commentary.

But shutting down political speech just because you don't like it? that makes you no different from the people you claim to hate.

yeah the skinheads seem to know the security guys so they were all buddy buddy. The worst part was it was an all ages show so they were picking on the kids there but not much I could do if I intervened except get myself and my wife hurt. I did pull a teenage girl to the side and try to get her to call the cops about them being inappropriate with her but she was too scared

You know, you could have called the cops yourself.

wouldn't have mattered without one of the kids coming forward themselves. I call the cops, tell them I saw them grab the girl, she refuses to corroborate, at best I get kicked out of the club, at worst they let me and my wife stay in a room full of a dozen pissed off skinheads

Or just maybe, in the presence of the police, she has the courage to stand up against the skinheads.

Ah, the ole free speech versus hate speech debate. I'm still conflicted on this one. I'm from Canada, eh. We are one of a handful of countries that distinguish between hate speech and free speech to the point of making the former illegal. It's illegal here to "incite hatred" or "advocate genocide" towards an identifiable group but the law makes exceptions for "matters of truth", "religious doctrine" and "subjects of popular debate". What is boils down to in practical terms is it makes it much harder for Neo-Nazis and KKKesque White Power groups to set up websites dedicated to disseminating their message and, of course, recruiting new members and seeking financial support. That part I like as I see no value in giving these haters a platform or any societal legitimacy.

That carefully noted, I see value as well in letting these throwbacks spew their tripe like the IRL trolls they are and then getting pointed at and laughed at unmercifully by the non derpy portions of the populace. I also see the slippery slope where "hate crime" becomes "thought crime" and I don't much like that.

Fun Fact: In 2006 based on their hate crimes law the government of Brazil cracked down on a bunch of hate related websites forcing them to shut down. For about 5 minutes. Many of them promptly resurfaced registered under US domains where they remain untouched because 1st Amendment.