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can you make adjustments to how fast i could click on the gambits, it seems you've made cool down longer or something that caused a slow down on clicking, it's like i'm playing a guardian or captain now, can't you make it back to the way it was?

Isn't he talking about PvMP armour?
And anyways, it is AoE Threat issues that I see most problematic.
Also not being able role a tank in Big Battles is suck a pain.

Any warden out there have any experiences tanking in raid skirmishes for example? How was holding aggro?

my 83 warden was with a lvl 31 captain in fortress, every time i hit a mob from a group, all the rest in that group automatically charged at him even though he was a distance away from me and i was a distance away from the mobs, exultation of battle couldn't pull any to me.

i blew him off after he didn't follow instruction to stay outside the area of dunlang, normally i would have been cool about it and simply redo dunlang's quest but the frustration on the class changes is just too much to suppress so i left the fellowship, i'll delete the character after i squeeze more turbine points out of him

This is my first post in the LOTRO forums so forgive me if it isn't wadenish.
My impression is that the new aggro system isn't "warden compatible".
In blue spec we generate 300% aggro on damage, but what about pure DPS?
What i mean is we may now reach 4k damage but after 3/4 clickies (gambit builder), how are we supposed to counter the aggro generated by minies that can attain 12 k in a single click?
Take as an example a basic Hunter/Champ (you name it) rotation. Even outputting 300% aggro we can't possibly reach the sum of damage they create in let's say 10 seconds.
If we manage to tank an end game raid boss we will be forced to alternate damage gambit/healing gambit and defensive gambit (ridicuolous shortened duration° so our damage output will have no meaning if compared to DPS classes. Especially if in order to create as many gambit as possible we will be using masteries.
This last point also make the blue capstone useless (not that 80 morale healing per builder means anything against mobs dealing 1k damage per hit).
Correct me if i'm wrong and especially noob.

In terms of aggro tables, what matters is how much damage you do, not how many skills you use for it. Using 4 gambit builders to generate 4k damage and using 1 cry to generate 12k damage both give the same result: 12k threat.

What's important is damage per second. If you can keep within 1/3 of your group's top DPSer, you can hold solid aggro. Defiant Challenge will then assist in surfing over the "spikes" (and, as a matter of fact, will use those very spikes to increase your own threat lead).

Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

What i mean is we may now reach 4k damage but after 3/4 clickies (gambit builder), how are we supposed to counter the aggro generated by minies that can attain 12 k in a single click?

Originally Posted by furtim

In terms of aggro tables, what matters is how much damage you do, not how many skills you use for it. Using 4 gambit builders to generate 4k damage and using 1 cry to generate 12k damage both give the same result: 12k threat.

What's important is damage per second. If you can keep within 1/3 of your group's top DPSer, you can hold solid aggro. Defiant Challenge will then assist in surfing over the "spikes" (and, as a matter of fact, will use those very spikes to increase your own threat lead).

I think what the first poster was talking about is that a warden can't keep up with other classes' DPS precisely because it takes 4+clicks to get off our skills vs 1 click for other classes. Even if our gambits generated as much damage as other classes' attacks, the slow build up and execution of those gambits nerfs our DPS. Just imagine if Shadows Lament took 4 button clicks or Pressing Attack took 6 clicks.

Officer in Windfola's House of Blackrock: a great, casual kin of people who play a lot. [url]http://hobonline.org[/url]

The real question is if wardens are able to hold aggro, not how much damage they can do in a single attack.
And for what it's worth, big attacks have their own restrictions, so it's not like they can be spammed. Mini codas need 3 ballads (or cry of the chorus) first, for example.
Shadow's Lament has also been mentioned, but tank captains can't get that skill anymore; and it used to be gated behind a defeat event unless red line specced anyway.

Once people get to end game and geared, that stuff has a lot of both agility and vitality, so tank wardens will still be able to do a good deal of damage.

I did a couple raid skirmishes tonight, as well as ToO Poison Wing and one of the Erebor raids (they're all new to me so I don't remember, it was the one with waves of mobs). Here are my thoughts.

I'll start with what no one is really concerned about; single target threat. It's fine, and I was in a raid with a lot of level 95 DPSers using second ages. I am level 92 and still using my 75 Second Ages for tanking. I held the poison boss even though I lagged for the last half of the fight and basically was only auto attacking while my bleeds ticked. The fight lasted only about a minute, probably less, but I didn't lose aggro.

In the Erebor raid I changed to my DPS spec but we had a Guard that was also underleveled so I eventually switched back for the last couple pulls. In tank spec I was able to hold pretty much anything I was able to hit. I found Battle Preping that new Gambit Resounding Challenge was pretty good to pull an incoming group, then EoB/FR/Goad/Reso/BM Reso was pretty good. Of course if the pull is 3 or less use Desolation more. I would throw DC in there after a couple Gambits, while most mobs were still alive so I could get the max mitigation buff but not so early so the threat was wasted. Play that by ear, and experiment with it. The issue is things I could not hit. This was out of my hands, and those ran off.

Did 2 raid skirms, and when I started pulling with RC then went into the AOE lifetaps it was great. I lagged super bad because it was a skirmish (I have since set my graphics a notch lower) but I held aggro fine for the most part. I was actually surprised, seeing just under 1k on my Resolutions I was sure Champs would be pulling it off me all the time but they weren't. Sure I lost aggro a few times, but overall if I wasn't lagging and was able to pump out a few Gambits I could hold anything I hit. The issue here again was things I could not hit, and things that didn't come with the main group (ranged attackers, extra mobs someone accidently pulled, etc). Having no real way to deal with those was fine in this skirmish, but would be a problem in a T2C raid environment.

The one tip that I discovered I touched on a bit with DC. Some have lamented the fact this skill does two very important but separate things, and I agree it's tough to balance it but you can definitely optimize it. Using it early in the fight, but not right off the bat, will ensure enough targets are still alive for you to get all 5 stacks of the mitigation buff. It will also help you get ahead of the DPS a bit. Since it's such a fast cooldown, if you use it early enough you'll also have it back by the end just to lock everything down. It's a balance, but it can be done pretty well I think. Just an idea, there's probably an even better way to deal with it but this worked out well for me when I tried it.

My concerns that is shared by most of you has been confirmed, if there are targets that we simply can't hit that's big trouble. Before, this void could be filled by leeches but now there's really no way to reliably hold large groups. This applies to lagging mobs, ranged mobs, extra adds, mezzed targets, etc. Any time mobs aren't in the initial large pull it's quite hard to get a hold of them. We need leeches back IMO, combined with more targets on pretty much all our AOE Gambits. Also DC's range is PITIFUL. It needs to be doubled at least. Also, sometimes I notice it hits mobs but they don't attack me? I don't know if they're resisting it or something but that shouldn't be possible on our only force taunt. When it works though it's pretty sweet.

These have been the experiences and opinions of a level 92 Warden who hasn't tanked in a year. YMMV

I am lvl 95 and i'm not sure about the new finishers! I find it easier and more rewarding to go directly to for example Surety of Death and use BM! IMO it is not worth doing the 2 and 3 gambit chain to get the buff with the finisher. But if anyone else has another opinion im looking forward to answers!

I am lvl 95 and i'm not sure about the new finishers! I find it easier and more rewarding to go directly to for example Surety of Death and use BM! IMO it is not worth doing the 2 and 3 gambit chain to get the buff with the finisher. But if anyone else has another opinion im looking forward to answers!

I really want to do the numbers on this, subjectively I agree with you.
Do we know what the bonus actually is or do I need to measure it?

I am lvl 95 and i'm not sure about the new finishers! I find it easier and more rewarding to go directly to for example Surety of Death and use BM! IMO it is not worth doing the 2 and 3 gambit chain to get the buff with the finisher. But if anyone else has another opinion im looking forward to answers!

Regards Valagorm, Eldar

It certainly depends on the finisher. For the War Cry line, I agree with you the bonuses for that finisher aren't very good. Since WC's demise I don't find myself using it very often. It's a very weak skill right now. However for the Persevere and Impressive Flourish lines, I find those finishers good and worth using.

Originally Posted by GoldSight

I really want to do the numbers on this, subjectively I agree with you.
Do we know what the bonus actually is or do I need to measure it?

You get a buff when you execute the length 2 and length 3 Gambits of a chain within a short period of one another. Doesn't have to be back to back, but might as well be. The buff has the same icon as the Determination trait Thick Skin (the elephant).

Okay, I just got to play around with the class changes for the first time. There are some bugs to work out (like the Gambit staying up after combat and just general gambit use in the new big battles - very unreliable), but, overall, I don't see the big deal. Honestly, at the risk of saying something really unpopular, it seems to me that the folks who are upset are upset because we were kind of OP and now we're not as OP or because there is a class that tanks better than us or a class that can juggle more targets than us.

I tanked a signature (or was it elite signature?) three levels above me tonight and I don't think I even needed the HoT I triggered; I didn't drop below 75%. I tanked three mobs on level and, with a T2 HoT up, I never dropped below 95% hp. I tanked a normal mob 5 levels above me (plus an add at the beginning) and didn't need to heal. This was ALL done in Recklessness, not Determination (though both of my specs are somewhat hybrid). I imagine this will get even better once the duration of buffs is raised next patch.

Maybe they just don't want us tanking or pulling 15 mobs at once Though, from what I've seen, you can probably still do that solo, even if you can't hold aggro on all 15 in a group. Maybe we just need a little bit of practice.

The folks who are unhappy, do you consider yourself a powergamer? I wonder if that's not part of it.

When you say 'tanked' 3 mobs etc, do you mean on landscape? Or was this in a raid with hunters, lm, mini, rks capts guards etc? There is a big difference. I think you were just dpsing not tanking, imho.

Anyway, I understand there were a lot of cranky guards when the warden came out. It wasnt well thought out, but we all got past that. I felt there was a place for all tanks. However, we paid a special price to use a warden and an rk. Even now they promote the warden still as that special class, and tanking is its name.

To come in and create such a mess with the warden, and then say there wasnt enough time to fix it, nor even look at it, must be the worst public statement a 'professional' mmo has ever made. I am happy to know the dev is truthfull, dont get me wrong. IMHO, HD, should never have been deployed with all the errors that still exist (rubber banding, ctd, holes in graphics, mobs getting stuck spinning, mounted combat, inappropriate map changes, the list goes on and on). I loved my warden, but right now she is just cooking =) (with a few adventures to adjust, once again to nonsense skills).

It does look like lotro is changing very much, and looking for new players instead of keeping the older ones. Right now every interface looks different from the others. Lotro is now a piece of mixed pieces and the newest ones are the ugliest lol.

If i just tried lotro today, and just glanced through the interfaces, right there i could see it was not a cohesive unit and would leave for better turf. Its too bad, its as if no one is at the helm. Odd.

Is the advantage of aggro we have 300%, or +300%, going from *3 to *4 ?

It's a *3 multiplier.

Does this advantage is applied on ours heals ?

No, it doesn't seem to affect healing, just damage.

I would be very pleased if you had the source of the info too, i wish i could find it myself...

It was all in the beta forums, which means it can't be posted here. Most of the objective testing that was conducted during beta happened before the NDA drop, and the terms of the NDA drop also explicitly disallowed copy-pasting any info from the forums. So, beta testers can tell you the conclusions and even the methods, but we can't present the actual data. (bohbashum re-created one of his tests after launch, though, and posted the result here.)

Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

How bad has the warden become

Ok then if I understand well, every class has more dps specially those who do big aoe, but the warden can't hold aggro on multiple targets anymore. This is what we call destroying a class. The warden has always be my favorite class and I play it until the moria like most of us. Thsi is by far the worst update they done to the warden so far. CAN ANONE SHOW ME WHO ASKED FOR THIS KIND OF CHANGE AND WHERE? It's not all, when I play hd battles, i can't even build my gambit because each time a mob dies, my gambit stop building because of the out of combat. Please do something because you will lost all of your good warden players.

thumbs down to warden changes

Change followed by more change, is this to keep people employed for the greater good? The warden was perfect at 85, finally I enjoyed it after a 6 months of a bad start at 75. Now it can only reasonably be described as pathetic. Boss tanking seams to work but fast multi-mob action is a joke. As for finishers, well imo Gambits were the finishers. Stringer multiple gambits together starting at the weakest one, to get to a finishing gambit is a fantasy written by a someone justifying there job, not someone who actually played the class. The agro system and warden tanking was a Work of art before. My main is now an embarrassing shadow, I hardly dare to show in public. Did players ask for these changes idk. Don't go back to the drawing board please, just undo the damage that's been done.

I am lvl 95 and i'm not sure about the new finishers! I find it easier and more rewarding to go directly to for example Surety of Death and use BM! IMO it is not worth doing the 2 and 3 gambit chain to get the buff with the finisher. But if anyone else has another opinion im looking forward to answers!

Is it not possible to do both?

If not, then is it just due to timing (i.e. you can't execute the Mastery and Surety of Death within 10 seconds) or because using the Mastery cancels the effect of the War Cry + Brink of Victory sequence?

I really like warden since HD update

I find myself getting agro a lot easier and holding it easier then previous. After relearning skill set, I personally think the warden is a better class now. I am running the blue line with a splash of yellow and it seems to work great for me.