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It doesn't look strikingly different from Saotome, so unless Endo goes out of his way to integrate that into all his teaching, I am not sure it would have been obvious just looking at him do technique.

It doesn't look strikingly different from Saotome, so unless Endo goes out of his way to integrate that into all his teaching, I am not sure it would have been obvious just looking at him do technique.

i would look at the 48th demo of Endo sensei, at the beginning where he dealt with ikkyo then iriminage.

When you watch this video of a seminar in Washington from the time where I zoomed in to the end of the clip, you may get an glimpse, of the use of the body or espacially the spine in this way of aikido.
If you don't want to watch the whole scene, please at least look at 2:05.

Is this more interesting?
And as far as I understand and experience it, this flexibility is always there. Even if you don't see it.
I think, an upright spine is ok. But it should be soft and flexible and should be able to "answer", should be "responsive". The whole body should work this way. At least this is, what I try(!) to achieve.

Aahhh very very interesting! Thank you all for your statements. I have to think and that's enriching!

i would look at the 48th demo of Endo sensei, at the beginning where he dealt with ikkyo then iriminage.

Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote:

When you watch this video of a seminar in Washington from the time where I zoomed in to the end of the clip, you may get an glimpse, of the use of the body or espacially the spine in this way of aikido.
If you don't want to watch the whole scene, please at least look at 2:05.

Is this more interesting?
And as far as I understand and experience it, this flexibility is always there. Even if you don't see it.
I think, an upright spine is ok. But it should be soft and flexible and should be able to "answer", should be "responsive". The whole body should work this way. At least this is, what I try(!) to achieve.

Aahhh very very interesting! Thank you all for your statements. I have to think and that's enriching!

Believe me, I'm really looking at these videos and trying to see it, but I'm just not seeing it. At 2:05, I see the hips (some lumbar) flopping around, I see the skull (cervical spine) flopping around, which is indicative of a pliability in the area, but the thoracic looks fused, and when he's actually moving, it all seems stiff, fused. There is pliability, and then there is intentional mobility. It's one thing to allow outside forces to drive you into a position by not resisting it, but another to actually drive yourself into it. They don't necessarily cross over in terms of learning.

I just watched the vid Carsten pointed out. Endo is not showing any technique here, but more the flexibility your have, the freedom of movement you still possess, when your feet do not move. It is what we work on to develop and I guess Carsten does too. Move feet only when necessary (when for example ma ai no longer matches what we are trying to achieve with the technique).

I just watched the vid Carsten pointed out. Endo is not showing any technique here, but more the flexibility your have, the freedom of movement you still possess, when your feet do not move. It is what we work on to develop and I guess Carsten does too. Move feet only when necessary (when for example ma ai no longer matches what we are trying to achieve with the technique).

Maybe that's one way to put it, so long as the point is not that the feet are not moving, but that something is not allowing the feet to move in space, then I'd agree. The only difference between a step, a kick, a punch, a headbutt, etc., is whether there is something in the way, and where that something in the way is. You have to sincerely try to take a step, just in the same direction as the force is going, that's how the force transmits to the ground, that's how the force transmits to the target. Otherwise it's like trying to hold a skyscraper up with chocolate pudding; chocolate pudding is nice on its own merits, but it is not a building material.

If your feet are not actively grasping and extending into the ground, either because they are totally relaxed to the consistency of chocolate pudding, or because they are just stiffened up into club feet, then they offer about as much ability to lift you up against the force of gravity or anything else as if they were nothing more than the same volume of chocolate pudding. So if trying not to move your feet leads to that, chocolate pudding feet, but really, chocolate pudding legs and chocolate pudding body. That's what I meant. Now I am hungry.

I did put "weight" in quotation marks. It's more about the position of the (perpendicular) center line and "feeling" weight.
I am sorry: I can't express better

Well, when researching about torifune I accidentially came across some descriptions of the "bow stance" in tai chi (we have a lot of things in our way of aikido which seem to be kind of "parallel" ... ).
It was quite similar to what I learn about hanmi. Except the direction of the feet. Especially having the (perpendicular) center line not in the middle but in the front third. (was very concrete: 81 to 19)

My teacher would argue with your teacher. He would say that a stance with more weight on one foot or the other is inherently unbalanced, and therefore vulnerable.

The proposition is testable. Stand in hamni and have someone push on the middle of your chest, and then on your upper back. Experiment with different weight distributions and see what happens.

Katherine

Assuming that Katherine is representing what she, her teacher, and other people drinking the same cool aid, would agree with regarding weight distribution and hamni, this statement may be revealing.

It is impossible to move without shifting weight from one foot to the next.
It is impossible to move quickly without lifting one leg, or both legs, completely off the ground.

All this internal magic stuff seems to equal not moving. What if the attacker has a knife? A sword? Multiple attackers? Multiple attackers with weapons. Sorry for the intrusion of reality.

As to what O Sensei thought about hamni, it is discussed in Budo. Assuming that people aren't going to argue that the translators failed to understand basic common words, we should be able to take what he said at face value. Also, there are photos. Looks like a pretty typical and modern stance, given his height, in even the old photos. If anything his stance narrowed, at times, as he got older (on video), which would contradict the arguments that the secret was learned from yada, yada, yada...

With someone like Saotome Sensei, uke's balance is already gone by the time he actually touches nage. Which of course makes technique very easy.

It's possible to accomplish that without "internal" skills of any kind, through timing, body movement, etc. But it becomes more difficult the more skillful the attacker is.

Katherine

I'm afraid you may be seeing what you want to see. Saotome Sensei does a variety of different things depending on what Uke does. The narration of his videos (if you watch them thoroughly) explains this most clearly. He explains this in his books. He talks about this at seminars, invitation only trainings, Etc. Saotome Sensei is not ambiguous in how he understands how Aikido works nor what he wants us to be doing as his students.

Sometimes it's internal. Sometimes it's external. Sometimes Uke is unbalanced immediately. Sometimes he's not. Sometimes there's resistance and then the question is how to blend with/use that resistance (the Oyo Henka video). Often Sensei moves behind Uke, Uke turns to pursue, and then Uke is unbalanced by his own following motion. There are even step by step examples of the roles of Uke and Nage in his book Principles of Aikido, complete with pictures. The most common movement that Saotome Sensei performs is the backwards tenkan plus weight shift. Again, not secretly internal, not only internal, and not ambiguous. He teaches the leading, blending, body positioning, concept of Aiki.

I just watched the vid Carsten pointed out. Endo is not showing any technique here, but more the flexibility your have, the freedom of movement you still possess, when your feet do not move. It is what we work on to develop and I guess Carsten does too. Move feet only when necessary (when for example ma ai no longer matches what we are trying to achieve with the technique).

Watching Endo Senei at the demonstration, he shows a variety of approaches to Aikido, in a slow detail to emphasize the efficiency of movement. I don't see anything here that's particularly different or that demonstrates the supremacy of internal approaches of not moving. The seminar footage showed certain approaches that fit certain circumstances. The head push in the classroom is just an exercise. What if UKe had a knife in the other hand? What if it was randori? He might move differently.

As to the video of Peyrache Shihan, it starts with a video of O Sensei leading, body positioning, and moving a great deal. What Peyrache Sensei is showing is quite different from that in most cases. At times he looks good. At other times what he shows is against compliant static Uke. What if instead of waiting patiently to be thrown Uke stabbed Sensei with the knife in his dangling hand? It's ok to work on minimalistic movements. Older big men seem to gravitate towards this lately. But it is also necessary to train bigger movement. Small movements are not superior. You do what fits the situation.

Watching Endo Senei at the demonstration, he shows a variety of approaches to Aikido, in a slow detail to emphasize the efficiency of movement. I don't see anything here that's particularly different or that demonstrates the supremacy of internal approaches of not moving. The seminar footage showed certain approaches that fit certain circumstances. The head push in the classroom is just an exercise. What if UKe had a knife in the other hand? What if it was randori? He might move differently.

As to the video of Peyrache Shihan, it starts with a video of O Sensei leading, body positioning, and moving a great deal. What Peyrache Sensei is showing is quite different from that in most cases. At times he looks good. At other times what he shows is against compliant static Uke. What if instead of waiting patiently to be thrown Uke stabbed Sensei with the knife in his dangling hand? It's ok to work on minimalistic movements. Older big men seem to gravitate towards this lately. But it is also necessary to train bigger movement. Small movements are not superior. You do what fits the situation.

I agree.
Thanks for sharing and your time taken to watch.
The vid (well sort of) consists of snapshots from seminars, not demo. (In my teacher's defense).
My teacher says the minimalistic movements prevent you to use the moment of the big movements to 'make' your technique work. He also says when aite is stationary you move, when aite is very agile, become stationary. So you adapt to the situation.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl

It is impossible to move without shifting weight from one foot to the next.

not hard. any junior grade taekwondo can do it. not only they can move without shifting weight, they can throw kick at the same time. it's their specialty.

Quote:

It is impossible to move quickly without lifting one leg, or both legs, completely off the ground.

fall forward on your face would do it. folks in wheel chair can move pretty well too.

Quote:

All this internal magic stuff seems to equal not moving. What if the attacker has a knife? A sword? Multiple attackers? Multiple attackers with weapons. Sorry for the intrusion of reality.

*off topics warning*

them internal folks really get into your space aren't they to cause so much reaction on your part? look liked they already took your space and you are in the process of defending back. in aikido, when an opponent took your space and you have to react, what does that call? what you don't realized is that many of those folks know a lot about edge weapons and multiple attackers than you realized. take Dan for example, do you know that he's a blade smith? another gentleman is a sword polisher and other stuffs. quite a few have done weapon based koryu arts. one gentleman is the current head of a koryu art. these folks have a tremendous wealth of knowledge and experience that offered up for the asking, if the asking is courteous and respectful. you know the whole "stealing techniques" thingy is really about paying attention to details and talk less.

a bit more off the topic, but a piece of unsolicited advise. one thing i learned from working in corporate america is that you don't piss off folks, because they could be your managers one of these days.

This is not right at all. Many of these conversations have been fleshed out already..

Very true Josh - Although it may appear that most of the IS talk is centered around static non-moving exercises, that is simply very basic stuff to build a foundation - the true goal is to establish the whole body balanced connection and maintain it WHILE moving. Also, I think Phi had some good comments on weight shifting and moving.

Very true Josh - Although it may appear that most of the IS talk is centered around static non-moving exercises, that is simply very basic stuff to build a foundation - the true goal is to establish the whole body balanced connection and maintain it WHILE moving. Also, I think Phi had some good comments on weight shifting and moving.

Just my opinion on things, and YMMV

Greg

Good God. Imagine talking to some people about not moving at all while moving on the inside, or that punching air can give you knock out, bone breaking power. I have read these debates, been in these debates for decades. Never once...not even once.. did it end well for those guys arguing against it. What's the point about telling them how it leads to incredible mobility and stability without tellegraphed motion or wind up?

Ignorance takes on many faces. Phi is right, and you have pointed it out yourself -that since we all know the truth, and we know we are inescapably correct and their opinions always fail, in person, that even when they rage against the machine on the net, we need to hold our temper and try to remain polite. I mean I have been called a liar, a con man, a snake oil salesman, people discussing how much I make (I think an unprecidented slight) and any number of things in these pages, then see people get all huffy when I finally get ticked off. This, after not one of their teachers has been able to handle this, in person. Not even one. And then they all want to train it and we become friends! And I'm the one who has to be patient? Good God!
Dan

Good God. Imagine talking to some people about not moving at all while moving on the inside, or that punching air can give you knock out, bone breaking power. I have read these debates, been in these debates for decades. Never once...not even once.. did it end well for those guys arguing against it. What's the point about telling them how it leads to incredible mobility and stability without tellegraphed motion or wind up?

Ignorance takes on many faces. Phi is right, and you have pointed it out yourself -that since we all know the truth, and we know we are inescapably correct and their opinions always fail, in person, that even when they rage against the machine on the net, we need to hold our temper and try to remain polite. I mean I have been called a liar, a con man, a snake oil salesman, people discussing how much I make (I think an unprecidented slight) and any number of things in these pages, then see people get all huffy when I finally get ticked off. This, after not one of their teachers has been able to handle this, in person. Not even one. And then they all want to train it and we become friends! And I'm the one who has to be patient? Good God!
Dan

Yes, I know what you mean - for the most part I have been trying to avoid these antagonistic type of threads lately - however, when a statement is made that is absolutely not true, it is hard to stay out and not provide correct information - not necessarily to try and persuade the source of the incorrect information since some people are just set in their opinion, but more for those that may not have experience in the area being discussed to let them know the opinion of those that do have experience, etc.

By the way, what are you doing posting at this hour - should you not be on the road to somewhere by now?

Yes, I know what you mean - for the most part I have been trying to avoid these antagonistic type of threads lately - however, when a statement is made that is absolutely not true, it is hard to stay out and not provide correct information - not necessarily to try and persuade the source of the incorrect information since some people are just set in their opinion, but more for those that may not have experience in the area being discussed to let them know the opinion of those that do have experience, etc.

By the way, what are you doing posting at this hour - should you not be on the road to somewhere by now?

Greg

Theyr'e coming to get me!!!!
Wait...wasn't that a song in the 60's They're coming to take me away hah hah, to the... well. I guess you know where I am going. Seems to fit eh? On both levels!

It is impossible to move without shifting weight from one foot to the next.
It is impossible to move quickly without lifting one leg, or both legs, completely off the ground.

It's impossible to discuss the fine points of physical technique via a text only medium. I'm not even going to try. My dojo has a very extensive and well-publicized seminar schedule; you're welcome to come train with us at any time.

It's impossible to discuss the fine points of physical technique via a text only medium. I'm not even going to try. My dojo has a very extensive and well-publicized seminar schedule; you're welcome to come train with us at any time.

Katherine

You constantly try. You dont try only when you're stumped.

If you don't shift your weight you die. It's that simple. How about having the courage to post one video of your amazing secret skills at use in defense against realistic attacks? By you I mean Harden or anyone who allegedly has the secret.