Be honest If I would ask you for details of the automotive unit of your car, how many can tell me details about Otto, Diesel, Common rail, Fuel injection, RamAir, disc brakes, TC, ESP, AAIJG etc. You want to turn the key (or push a start button) and give the direction and the car has to deal with the rest. Same goes for the majority of computer users, they want a tool to help them things done. Fiddling with the tool is not their purpose nor interest. Thats also big chance to spread for Linux. Nobody (except us neerds) really cares which OS is running if its runnig fine and not bothering me. And honestly, sometimes I really regret that I have spent so many hours tweaking my computer just to have it running (for no specific purpose) instead of spending the time with my kids.Carsten

When I was still an IT instructor the European Computer Driving License had a module that could best be described as an introduction to computers, where the idea of an operating system was introduced as distinct from application software. Many students just couldn't understand the distinction and took a long time to get their heads round the concept.

That's pretty sad, and probably a direct result of the way computers are sold lately. Back when you got yourself a computer with DOS on it it was a lot more obvious.

Quote from: Lyn

Unfortunately people don't understand the basics, but then on another level why should they, a computer is a tool, if it gets the job done then what does it matter if they don't know their browser from the make of the computer builder?

"The computer as a tool" is just a lame way to say you don't want to learn working with your computer. Much like a craftsman has to clean, oil, sharpen or modify certain tools you have to learn how to use and take care of your "tool". It's not just a tool though; it's one of the most versatile tools ever built. Even more versatile than a Swiss army knife . It's so versatile that it can't do a much useful without a program that tells it what to do and how to do it.

A computer can't just magically "surf the web", no matter what make it is. it needs the right software to do so (amongst which a browser). If you say Dell is your browser you are either too afraid to admit you don't have a clue what it is or too lazy to find it out. That is not necessarily a bad thing, except if you're looking for support.

That being said I dislike the word "browser" as it doesn't clearly state what it does, it's a bit of a techie word. Perhaps we (the more computer literate) shouldn't be asking people what browser they're using, but "what program they're using to surf the internet".

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If I would ask you for details of the automotive unit of your car, how many can tell me details about Otto, Diesel, Common rail, Fuel injection, RamAir, disc brakes, TC, ESP, AAIJG etc.

Egg-squeeze me, but the things you are now asking for are of a completely different type than "what OS are you using", which is more like "what sort of engine is in there", I'm sure most people will know if it's a 1.6 4 cylinder that takes gasoline or a 2.5 liter TurboDiesel. That being said, if I had a car I could answer these questions. I think todays cars are still evil gas guzzlers though, so I'll avoid getting one as long as possible.

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Fiddling with the tool is not their purpose nor interest.

People tend to treat a computer as something like a radio, just turn it on and it should work. But even on a radio you'll see fiddling going on, searching for another station, changing bass/treble, perhaps more advanced surround settings too. It isn't a radio though. A radio can do just one thing and hardly ever fails in doing so. A desktop computer on the other hand is meant to do a whole lot of things at virtually the same time, and without proper setting up will fail doing some or all of it. This means there are a lot of ways for it to not function properly. Even though fiddling is not their purpose or interest it is in their interest to have it set up properly (note: I don't fiddle for the sake of fiddling either).

I have to say I got some of my friends to understand that Linux is an operating system, and so is Windows XP. I try not to talk too much about computers with them though, most of them are not very good with computers and use it as some of the typical users described earlier this thread.I do occasionally help some of them to set up their windows computers. They don't have an internet connection to find out the cause and solutions to their problems. Without this internet connection it's a lot easier to keep their boxes running without much trouble though. But I bet they'd be more advanced users by now if they did have an internet connection.

The guy who invented the Segway lives not too far from me. He is a uber Geek. He has a huge wind machine on his property. The kind that harness's the wind to create power. Pretty cool toy. Not like he needs the savings from the free electricity. That thing can be heard for miles. He flies to work every day from his home. It's only a 45 minute drive.

You can damage your car by not doing proper maintenance on it, or by not knowing what you're doing, just as you can with a Windows PC. Just this morning I got a call from a guy who wants me to help him with his computer ... he got a pop-up telling him he need a virus scan on his computer, he clicked yes, and *BOOM* suddenly his machine is infected with some virus which Norton can't remove. I told him not to do stuff like that, but as usual he ignored me. This is the same guy, who when I tell him he needs to update his security software, use something other than IE, etc., just rolls his eyes at me because he's bored with me being too technical. I told him this time he has to call the Geek Squad, because I'm tired of him not following basic safety and security.

The difference between a car and a Windows computer is that if you don't change your oil, you end up with a seized engine, whereas with a Windows machine if you get a virus you end up part of a botnet, which harms the rest of us.

People tell me all the time how great Windows is, that they've never had a problem with it, etc. etc., but I call bs on this because it may be all right for people who know what they're doing, but for those who don't, it's a disaster for them and the rest of us.

Sorry for the rant ... I'm just in a bad mood because this guy wanted me to save him from his own carelessnes.

Safari for Windows? Sounds good. I'm sure when Apple comes out with the final version it will be nice.

Oh, and GrannyGeek, I can understand why you use Opera over Firefox, but I personally use FLOSS whenever possible. Having said that, Opera is made by a good company that I can respect.

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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991

Unfortunately people don't understand the basics, but then on another level why should they, a computer is a tool, if it gets the job done then what does it matter if they don't know their browser from the make of the computer builder?

I go back and forth. Sometimes I agree completely with the Lyn's statement. I am thrilled that "the masses" can now use computers. I would never want to go back to the way things were in 1987, when I first started using a computer in total ignorance. In those days you practically had to become initiated into the High Priesthood in order to use a computer, and this granted you a certain amount of prestige and some awe from people who didn't use or understand computers. As computers became easier to use, some members of the High Priesthood couldn't conceal their distress at their loss of status. Mere ignorant mortals could now do all kinds of things with their computers--perish the thought! Linux provided a place for these High Priesthood refugees to regroup, but now even Linux is getting pretty easy to use.

Other times I get disgusted at the unwillingness of so many computer users to learn anything at all about using a computer. I don't understand how they can stand to be at the mercy of the machine or the operating system. It's not necessary to become a programmer, a geek, or a techie in order to use a computer safely and effectively. Realistically, though, people just aren't interested in anything beyond doing whatever it is that they want to do. There's nothing wrong with that. We all have areas we're interested in and areas we're not, and it's just not possible to know everything we *should* know and still have time for the rest of life, so we have to choose what we want to know about and hope for the best with the rest.

Maybe some day computers will advance to the point that the typical user can't mess them up, the machine can protect itself from malware, and complex tasks will seem intuitive and easy. Those days aren't here yet.--GrannyGeek

Maybe some day computers will advance to the point that the typical user can't mess them up, the machine can protect itself from malware, and complex tasks will seem intuitive and easy. Those days aren't here yet.--GrannyGeek

Well, I would say that part of that is covered by Linux, and another part by OS X. I've installed Linux (and done a lot of configuration) for friends and family, so it's pretty hard for them to mess it up unless they're really trying, and they're also protected from malware. I find that OS X is a lot more intuitive than either Linux or Windows. On the other hand, most people who use computers are only familiar with Windows, so that doesn't help much. Microsoft could make Windows more secure by requiring the administrator password be given for any software to be installed as the default, but they haven't. That wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't cause so much collateral damage (botnets, friends' b0rked computers, etc.).

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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991

Well, I would say that part of that is covered by Linux, and another part by OS X. I've installed Linux (and done a lot of configuration) for friends and family, so it's pretty hard for them to mess it up unless they're really trying, and they're also protected from malware.

FWIW my experience, limited to my kids, would not support this. They can crash linux or windows with seeming ease (one of the reasons I've loaded VL and SuSE so many times). I haven't used OS X so I couldn't comment on that. I can't blame internet access too often as they have limited access in that regard.

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The plans of the diligent lead to profit...Pro. 21:5VL64 7.1b3 RLU 486143

First sorry for hijacking the thread, I am pleased that Apple have released Safari for Windows, the more browsers in the ecosystem the better, if they can learn from each other all the better.

As for knowing what computers do - I am the sort of person who wants some level of knowledge of what I am doing and with what. I don't drive (I don't think I ever will do) but if I did I would want to know a bit about the car I had. After all if anything went wrong I'd like to know a bit to fix it if I could and something about it in relation to other machines of its class.

Yes I don't need to know how to write code to use it, but the basics of how it works and what is it made of should be basic to everything we do. But then I have found most people are supremely uninterested in the world around them and as long as it works for them don't particularly want to know anything.

You can damage your car by not doing proper maintenance on it, or by not knowing what you're doing, just as you can with a Windows PC. Just this morning I got a call from a guy who wants me to help him with his computer ... he got a pop-up telling him he need a virus scan on his computer, he clicked yes, and *BOOM* suddenly his machine is infected with some virus which Norton can't remove. I told him not to do stuff like that, but as usual he ignored me. This is the same guy, who when I tell him he needs to update his security software, use something other than IE, etc., just rolls his eyes at me because he's bored with me being too technical. I told him this time he has to call the Geek Squad, because I'm tired of him not following basic safety and security.

He obviously looks at much pr0n. Make sure he uses protection. (e.g., Firefox)

ROFL, hanumizzle ... though you may be right about the porn bit. I didn't ask him, don't really wanna know. The thing is ... do you remember when they used to talk about "perpetual September?" It's from back when the net was mostly used by university people, and every September all the freshmen would do all this n00b stuff as they were adjusting to being online. Then AOHell gave it's users internet access, and it became "perpetual September" because AOL was signing up new people all the time, and they were constantly doing all the usual newbie stuff. Well, this guy has been in September mode for about three years, when he got his first computer. I tell him to use Firefox, he ignores me, I tell him to make sure to keep his antivirus subscription up to date, he doesn't (he won't use ClamWin or AVG because "it can't be that good if it's free"), I tell him not to click yes on every popup, he ignores me, I tell him to clean out his system tray because all that crap is slowing down his machine ... you get the idea. So I'm done with this guy.

mikecindi:

Wow ... I guess your kids are teh S-M-A-R-T. I give the people I install Linux for a 20 character root password so they can't remember it, just to make it harder for them to mess up their system, then I have them put the password in a lock box or safe or something just to make it that much harder. I don't have any kids, but I remember from being a kid the joy of breaking things. My brother and I used to go to a junk yard, buy bicycle parts, build bikes, and then wreck them. Good times, good times ...

Lyn:

I don't think that counts as a threadjack, since Safari for Windows is what this thread is supposed to be about.

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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991

Unless they've figured out the root password (which I doubt) I don't know how they manage to bring the "pitter" to a stop but they do. One of them is pretty smart and does intentionally do things that I would never think to do (and sometimes have trouble fixing).

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The plans of the diligent lead to profit...Pro. 21:5VL64 7.1b3 RLU 486143

I thought Billy bought a huge interest in Apple when they almost went under?

That might be why they built safari for windoze before linux!

As for your car compareision, there's a problem there.

Frist off the manufacturer of the auto doesn't create an unsafe auto, thier autos work right off the lot, they recall them and fix them for free when they find a problem. PC's installed with windows aren't safe, they don't work right out of the box, true they apear to work but they are incomplete, they have no defense or inadiqiute defense. And they don't fix them for free, you are expected to fix them yourself. In other words "Updates and Pacthes".

Second deal is all auto drivers are required to take a test to see if they know where the brakes are and how to use them under all conditions, amonest other items of importance. Where as PC operaters have no requirments, no need to know about safe and secure PC usage.

I have two sisters that fall into this group, they buy the latest and greatest PCs, which now has vista. And use it right out of the box and in a few short weeks are crying "Help my PCs not working". When they haven't done any measure to protect them selves.

Windozes sells these PC's with no protection, How long would a car manufacturer sell cars with no brakes?Windoze buyers buy PCs with no anti-virus, would they buy a car with no brakes?

It is a sad truth that most PC users don't know what a browser is, or what OS they are using even. But what I find sadder still is a good number of PC techs don't even know that there are other choices to operating sytems.

I was shopping for a Wireless card for my laptop, and I ask "will this card work with Linux?" the sales tech answered "sure it will it'll work with any MicroSoft system"

Windozes sells these PC's with no protection, How long would a car manufacturer sell cars with no brakes?Windoze buyers buy PCs with no anti-virus, would they buy a car with no brakes?

It is a sad truth that most PC users don't know what a browser is, or what OS they are using even. But what I find sadder still is a good number of PC techs don't even know that there are other choices to operating systems.

I was shopping for a Wireless card for my laptop, and I ask "will this card work with Linux?" the sales tech answered "sure it will it'll work with any MicroSoft system"

I am not sure I would be happy for computers to go out with Windows antivirus up and running as default, something echoed by the antivirus manufacturers... though I understand some versions of Vista have a subscription to MS antivirus and security suite already built in and switched on..... Its a anticompetitive thing....

Like most of us here I spend a fair bit of time de virusing and speeding up friends machines, and usually its their own fault. As Granny Geek has said its perfectly possible to run a windows machine without being infected by viruses or compromising security, just most ignore the basic security features. Linux makes it easier to keep your machine safe and secure, though even then people can run into trouble..... As for sales staff in large computer outlets, most are sales staff and they are given very limited information on the products. They are mostly interested in selling you an extended warranty - which is where they get most of their commission. Some are great.... trying to set up my father's internet with a usb modem running Windows 98 (original edition) was a nightmare. It kept forgetting that the USB was there, support for USB devices being non existant. Spoke to the ISP help desk who said basically you are buggered... one of the suggestions was to buy an Ethernet router for connection and install Linux... as this would get the most out of the box :-) I was most pleased that the person on the other end had come to the same conclusion as me. However my dad is buying a Dell with vista preinstalled ... we will see how it (and he) copes.

I agree with you Lyn, most of the times is the user fault. But I remember the time before SP2 was out, your box could be infected in 10 seconds without AV software (I know this by my own experience). I am talking about nothing running or installed, a clean XP box just running the default services. If you have an old copy of XP, you need to download SP2 in another box, and install it before to configure a connection. I dont recommend to navigate without firewall and AV, but I think the risk is minimal if you know how to use the net safely.

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"There is a concept which corrupts and upsets all others. I refer not to Evil, whose limited realm is that of ethics; I refer to the infinite."Jorge Luis Borges, Avatars of the Tortoise. --Jumalauta!!