Friday, March 29, 2013

Brain Illness and Deception

Q. Is it possible that someone could be so mentally ill, in some form or another, that the reality is so off base, that the person may not know he or she is lying?

A. Yes.

It is very rare.

A person with alzheimer's, for example, might perseverate on something from 30 years ago, but speak as if it was a present tense issue, without being deceptive.

"I am going to see my wife" said an alzheimer's patient, even though she had been dead for 20 years. "We are going to the movies later today."

His sentence structure does not show deception.

This is similar to the repetition of a lie.

I inform the subject that I drive a blue car, but I do not own a blue car. The subject later says "Pete drives a blue car", and there is nothing within the language to indicate that the subject is deceptive.

People with brain damage, adult mental retardation, or adult autism may function in a way in which the brain does not process language like the rest of the population.

For example, a 50 year old woman with brain damage from a car accident when she was 7 years old may have the functioning level of a 7 year old, but a social worker trained in interviewing children may not find that an interview with the woman works the same as a normally developed 7 year old child, replete with a strong grasp on verb tenses. The reference point for adults with brain injuries, retardation, autism, or other issues may not apply.

Reader, have you had an elderly loved one slip into a state of forgetfulness where conversations of the past were spoken of as if present?

With deception in analysis, there is an intent to deceive that our process picks up. The subject has a need to deceive and will deliberately skip over time, or avoid answering questions.

When someone suffers from alzheimer's or has had a serious brain injury, the language is the picture taken by their mind's camera, the brain.

If the brain is damaged, the 'camera' being injured or diseased, the picture (the language) will reflect this very thing.

This article really hits home. My mother developed dementia during middle age, secondary to a ruptured brain aneurysm. As it progressed, but before she could no longer speak, she told one "lie" after another. These were sometimes colorful tales, such as the time she animatedly told me she was leaving for the Hebrides Islands to get married. Sometimes they were sad, such as when I found her standing in front of her closet, upset and trying to pack so she could get to the airport to go to her brother's funeral. He had died some years before. Everything she said was said in the most truthful way, because to her, it WAS the truth. These stories seemed odd, coming from my mother, who had always been a very straight-shooter.

My oldest son, who has severe autism and is non-verbal, has obviously never told a lie in his life. By the way, Peter, I was so upset at the story you had a few weeks ago, about the people with autism who were abused, that I could not finish it or comment. I was not upset with you, but certainly the content. My son has been at home with us for the past 6 months, because we could not tolerate the neglectful care he had been receiving. He is going to live with us until we can no longer provide his care.

Thank you, Peter. Now I'm going to take a leap here and say a bi-polar person in a manic state would not be purposely misleading because their perception is different than mine.

For example, my childhood Sunday school teacher at times thought our pastor was Jesus. Only "Jesus" could talk her out of her bedroom through a manic state. I understood even then that she wasn't lying...her mind simply saw it differently until she got better.

Hugs make the world a better place if only for a moment, however when these hugs are passed on they grow like the ripples in a pond, the moment becomes bigger and eventually the whole world will be hugging and it will be for all time, all from a simple, single hug.

Hugs to you Hobs,I was wondering if the article had something to do with Jodi Arias. She seems to believe her alternate reality is real. I think she thinks she had the most romantic relationship, only it was mostly in her head!

I'm still thinking about this. Much has been made by a few people here that Sherry West's statements show deception. With a normal person, her statements might, but do you take into consideration that her perception of reality is not normal? (Possibly)

Do you try to look at it from her perspective? Research has shown that even though schizophrenics display a flat affect, inside they focus on negative emotions like fear, anxiety, and guilt. I believe that explains her overboard explanation on "no money" for the robbers. In SA she is too wordy explaining that babies take money, but in her mind she is alleviating her guilt at having no money for the robbers. I think most of her talking can be explained when you look at it from her perspective of mental illness.

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Brain Illness and DeceptionQ. Is it possible that someone could be so mentally ill, in some form or another, that the reality is so off base, that the person may not know he or she is lying?

A. Yes.

Skip to comments and this post:

Peter Hyatt said...good intuitive pick up, Anonymous.

I am following it up with some work on the mother of the shot baby.

her statements caused police to suspect her, immediately and confidently.

Her daughter says she is mentally ill.

March 29, 2013 at 4:56 PM

I defer, since this is a one topic discussion.Man, talk about putting the brakes on a good topic that is unopen for other discussion.Why not say so, in the first place?You may call me,-Displeased with closed topic.

My mom has dementia. For a while, she would call me by her dead sister's name and gasp (crying hysterically) when she talked to me, exclaiming "I thought you were dead!" Interestingly enough, mom told me years ago when she was thinking correctly that I look and act like her dead sister (who died before I was born). I am grateful that she is over that now because after the first few times, it started to creep me out and I felt like I needed to start pinching myself to tell if I was real. Of course, I know pinching myself is ridiculous, but after being "declared" dead over and over by my mother it started to mess with my emotions.

Sus,we have no diagnosis, only her daughter's vague reference to "schizophrenic tendencies" which I'm unclear exactly what that means to her. IF SW was schizophrenic, wouldn't her statements be more a "word salad"? When I read/hear her statements I don't see them as disjointed, bizarre thoughts or delusions, I see them as deflection and contradictory, though I do see what you're saying with the guilt angle.

We're coming from two different viewpoints, and like I stated in the other post, I would like too see your point of view on this case. I'm coming from a negative view of SW, I may be overlooking things that you're seeing in a positive light. If we take the severe mental illness factor out of the equation, and focus on the what has been said without speculation, what's your take on the statements made by both mother and father?

Sus--I see where you're coming from, and it is useful to consider the points about guilt as this is a symptom of many mental illnesses. I do believe Sherry is mentally ill. She shows a tendency towards non-bizarre delusional thinking. I believe the bipolar diagnosis fits.We would need to know if Sherry hears voices that she believes exist outside of her own mind. If Sherry hears 2 or more voices talking to each other criticizing her or her thoughts then her delusional content is not as important. She would be schizophrenic.Many bipolar people can have paranoia that resembles schizophrenic thinking, but there are differences. I have a friend who is bipolar and some of her delusions in manic states are, in my opinion, bizzare. But she does not hear voices, so she is diagnosed bipolar.Sherry's statements have many indicators of deception. In other words, she is not just relaying delusional or guilty thoughts, but lying.This is why this case troubles me so much. There is a missing piece, and I fear that these 2 boys are not guilty of this crime they are being charged with.If I am wrong, I will feel bad that I have critized the Mom.But I do not believe the baby was killed at the time Sherry says he was killed or that he was shot by the boy.

Mental illness, with pain meds (enough to make it so her leg was numb and she didn't feel being shot) - her memory has to be warped too. Those two factors could be why she shows sensitivity and deception.

Schizophrenic tendencies is a poorly worded way of saying that the bipolar disorder is complicated by symptoms of psychosis. It could be hearing voices, extreme paranoia and hypervigilance,or comorbid presentation of symptoms. I heard voices. Did I know they were inside me and weren't real external entities? Yes. Did they still put me on anti psychotic medications and label me with bipolar disorder with psychosis? Yes. I still don't know how that all went away with my hysterectomy but that is what they said.

I have been unmedicated and completely healthy for 4 years but if anyone looked at my file, I guess I would be labeled a "nutter" too. Pathetic though, if I made a racist comment, commented negatively about someone of a different faith or sexual orientation, I would be labeled an intolerant, uneducated bigot, but some find it humorous to make disparaging comments about the mentally ill. Telling.

Pain meds don't work in that way. The meds I take handle the constant pain. I'd sure feel being shot or injured.

It is common for someone to be shot and not know it..sudden injury can have a numbed effect. That's why seeing the blood will make an injury hurt.

Why was there no blood from her leg? It sounds like there was no sign of injury as they searched for a wound, not sure there was one. And why no bandage at the interviews? She took it off and hiked up her pant leg so they could document? odd..

Let's try to remember to use kinder, proper language. We never know who is reading, or what they contend with in life.

I recently fired a nurse who called Sam 'brain dead'. Injured yes, dead no. His response was an approving blink and thumbs up...

It is terribly wrong to belittle anyone who has suffered the mental tortures of the damned for whatever reason it was caused. Any type of mental illness is a physical sickness just the same as any other illness or disease.

If you have cancer, your cells are damaged, sometimes there are treatments that can keep them in check (or not); if you have a mental illness your brain cells are damaged, which more often than not cannot be healed or cured but sometimes can be kept in check. To my knowledge, we don't have brain cell transplants.

When it is not caused by a hormonal imbalance, once your affected cells are damaged, deformed, or gone, that's the end of those cells ever working normally again. There is no cure for mental illness, just as there is no cure for cancer; if some of your brain cells are missing or aren't working properly, that's it, they aren't. That's physical. Same as there is no known cure for cancer; if some of your cells are damaged and aren't working properly, that's it. It's ALL physical and according to our individual cells, whether they are all working in harmony or not.

I know someone who has been mentally ill since childhood, which showed up in early puberty. She has been kept medicated and under the care of psychiatrists all of her life and is now institutionalized. She lives in the past, thinking this one did that to her and that one did this to her and daydreams about killing them all, and totally believes all these things "they" did to her, most that weren't that way at all. Her vivid imagination torments her.

I understand her and try to soothe her mind and comfort her. What I don't understand is people who don't understand her condition and want nothing to do with her; even her two grown children refuse to have anything to do with her, which hurts her so badly.

As far as I'm concerned, all these poeople who want nothing to do with her or anyone else who is mentally ill, or poke fun at them, are in worse condition than they are. They just don't know it.

Another Anonymous, All due respect to your relationship with that woman, you can't speak to what their childhood would have been like. It is hand to mouth survival. Everyone is a suspect when a paranoid person is on a tear, including the children and family. You have no idea how much hurt/terror/damage/emotional conflict she caused them, and it's one thing to say, I didn't live this and I can't understand why they would cause her so much pain. You don't know. You can't possibly imagine. Read some books, some memoirs of similar situations. You'll likely get an idea of why. This probably has little to do with forgiveness and everything to do with getting out and saving themselves. Surviving, carrying that damage forth and fighting it every day. Carrying it forth and realizing that there are more people out there who don't understand, who can't understand, who won't understand (or make an effort) and who judge them for taking care of themselves first. Perhaps you see her as a mother, because you are imagining how that would feel if those were your children. But they're not your children. And she is not you. At least she's not on the streets. That is salvation for her. So many of our mentally ill and terribly emotionally ill men and women end up on the streets because they don't trust the 'system' that could help them. It's next to impossible to have someone committed. She's lucky to be under a roof being fed, having others looking out for her. That is a GRACE.

Veruca is not being insensitive or disparaging. Sometimes the way to deal with horrible things is with humor. That's it. Nothing more. Comedy has a long tradition of doing that very thing with those hot button issues mentioned below, and successfully too. (eg Satire.)Everyone just needs to cool down.Hugs.

Should we automatically assume that anyone who commits a horrific crime against another person is mentally ill? If mental illness is a biological condition then no one with mental illness can be held accountable for their actions? Should we just lock them away so they can't harm anyone? I don't think anyone has the answers. I know I don't.

Our family, large, loud. and always laughing..was thought by some to be heartless in a neuro-trauma waiting room. We had lived there for days, and in between the tears and serious discussions, we cut-up as usual.

Finding reason to laugh every day is important for emotional and spiritual health.

Anonymous, the only disparaging remark about mental illness I've read is the "nutter" comment. While flippant, didn't strike me as malicious. The topic being discussed because a reader asked a question if Sherry West is mentally ill, can statement analysis be accurately applied. This is a fair question, and can shed some insight to this very complicated case. This is a statement analysis site. I'm sure just as in the population at large, there are people with mental illness themselves that comment here and want to discuss the case. I haven't seen any commenters make disparaging or demeaning remarks about mental illness. From what I've read the past week, the people commenting on this site are intelligent, sensitive, insightful people. Discussing a particular aspect of a specific case is not making a blanket statement on all people with mental illness.

Thanks anon...I totally agree. I go with the saying that if I don't laugh ill cry...in this case I'm sorry but sherrry west is a nutter. That I say that doesn't mean I think anyone who has mental health issues is to be laughed at or called names. This woman's baby was murdered horrifically and she never says his name and she rambles about her injuries and just is nonsensical all around.

dadgum, Skip and Hobnob, thanks for the hugs and understanding. I appreciate and return the hugs and good thoughts. Anon "I", your mom sounds a lot like mine did. I used to feel so conflicted about having to "lie" to my mother. She would look out the window and see things that weren't really there. She'd ask me if I saw them. At first, I tried saying, "Well, no, mom, I don't see it, but I know you do" and change the subject. She would NOT leave the subject unless I agreed that I'd seen it, too. I learned that I was never going to convince her such things were not right. I spoke with people at the local Alzheimer's association, and they agreed it is better in this case, to go along with what the person thinks. My best to you. I know the journey is arduous and lonely.

Lol...nutter=not cool?Sherry west being a pain med patient. Having kids that are now adults call her out on being unstable and the other was stabbed to death she's been arrested on multiple drug charges and now in the weirdest scenario possible her poor baby was murdered and look at the goofy.shit she goes on and on about. I'm not calling people who have mental health probs nutters....just kooky sherry west...And yeah I want in on a hugs too!...lol

I think the answer is in your question. Children don't typically become estranged unless there is serious conflict. Is it absolutely mental illness that led to this estrangement? I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate that the odds are yes, coupled with the other things we are learning about her history and her unexpected reactions to her 13 month old baby being shot in the face.

Can we prove it? Probably not. But the inability to prove something, however you define that, doesn't prevent us from sensing the truth of a situation.

ABC...I understand your point, but West seems to deny having a mental illness.

I'm sure LE knows by now if there was an insurance policy on Antonio.

This, too, troubles me:

"The mother of a 13-month-old Georgia baby who was shot to death Thursday told CNN that gunpowder residue tests on her and the baby's father were negative. Police had no comment when asked about Sherry West's statement."______________________

I don't see the need for LE to keep this detail hush-hush. West and Santiago were either tested or not tested.

When was Santiago tested? Wasn't he shopping when the shootings occurred?

And one last point...LE states they don't consider West a suspect. They have NOT said the same about Luis Santiago. Why not state "the parents are not suspects."

Okay, I lied. I have another point I want to bring up. Why hasn't the word "polygraph" been mentioned?

Wishing all a Happy Easter/Passover. And for those that don't celebrate, wishing you a Happy Sunday!

I don't think she shot the baby. I think the baby was already dead and there is something else behind the scenario that has evolved. Something I can't really speculate right now. So the simple choices for me are, she is either so mentally ill that she is completely out of touch or she is involved in a plot. Now looking at the 2 choices I'd have to pick, out of touch. But all of that is speculation.

Whichever it is or isn't there is no question that Sherry West is reacting in multiple unexpected ways both in her actions and her words, and her daughter is expressing concerns that probably did not become concerns with this incident. I'd say they have been concerns for some time.

Re: mental illness. The only source of this "diagnosis" is from Ashley. Ashley and Shawn may have been removed from Sherry for a variety of reasons...drugs, abuse, neglect. Was Ashley concerned that Sherry had another child knowing that her mother suffered from "schizophrenic tendencies"? Was Santiago concerned that Antonio was being raised by a mentally ill mother?

Now that people are talking about the father:What do people think about the father saying that when a call came in he didn't want to take at WalMart he reports hesitating about taking the call, but saying "OK, let's get this done" and then taking the call. He says it was the cops calling to report his family had been shot. But, this sounds like something someone would say to a hitman. Could this be some kind of leakage???

Fern--I agree!Other disturbing things from his interview:1). He says that the last time he saw his baby, it was when the door of Sherry's house was locked so he said "hi" to the baby through the window. He also says he asked Sherry at that time if she wanted him to mail any letters for her at the post office, but that day, she said nothing. BUT WAIT, I THOUGHT HE SAID THE DOOR WAS LOCKED? HOW DID HE TALK TO SHERRY?

2). When one of the reporters asks him what he thinks about the investigation being expanded beyond the 2 suspects arrested in custody, that LE has said nothing is being ruled out, he hesitates and then says (paraphrased ) " I hope they catch them. I forgive them but....". So, he seems to think the guilty parties are still out there and needing to be caught???

When my mom had her first stroke ( heavy smoker crap health) i would visit the hospital every day to keep her up to date, to laugh and keep life for her as normal as is normal in our family.

I noticed that unlike 'normal' stroke patients there was no improvement, just a slow and steady decline.Her 2nd stroke was thus not unexpected when it hit 4 weeks later.

I made the calls to the family to let them know she was shuffling off this mortal coil and they could come say bye.She hung on long enough for my bro and his wife from wales to arrive and sundry other rellies from around the country.

We were tossed off the ward for laughing and joking, we didn't mourn for what might have been we celebrated what had been, all her escapades, oopsies and OMG's.We had a CD playing quietly as we reminisced unfortunately it had songs that would be considered bad taste for stroke patients such as he aint heavy he's my brother, another one bites the dust etc which caused much hilarity

The other patients in her ward were laughing with us and were not happy when we were told off.

As her time came near she was moved into a side ward where we carried on from where we left off as well as telling mum it was ok to leave.The nurse who tossed us out asked if she could say her farewells and i said yes, i would never stop anyone saying bye to a family member

When she finally waddled off we bathed and laid her out (2 nurses and and undertaker in our family)

The other nurses came to say thankyou for letting the other nurse say bye when many wouldn't have and that they had enjoyed listening to my mum's antics through her life.

Our family are not fazed by death, we never mourn we celebrate, in mum's case her coffin had a witches hat and broom stick on it on the trip to the crem and in the crem which got many strange looks. It is the family in-joke, the 3 sisters were called the 3 witches and my deceased nan was the mother witch, my uncle's wife was promoted from trainee witch to full witch complete with certificate and gold broomstick pin.

I know when i go there will be no black, no mourning, there will instead be bright clothes, happy music and celebration otherwise i will come back and haunt you using something really noisy and annoying.

I still can't wrap my head around Santiago's "Tuesday or Wednesday" remark. His baby was murdered on Thursday morning.

This horrific crime captured NATIONAL attention, and yet the FATHER can't even recall the day of the week Antonio was killed.

I would think the Catholic charity that is raising funds for Sherry to move back to NJ would have instead raised funds for Antonio's cremation/burial costs. A brief obituary on this child's brief life would have been nice.

Oh and one more thing on the father, I don't think it's typical for the police to call and tell you on the phone when there's been a death like that. Maybe things have changed or maybe it matters what part of the country you're in, but when my mother was killed in a car accident they told me only that she had been injured. They didn't tell me she was dead until I got to the hospital. When I asked later why they didn't tell me, the coroner said it's just not standard. You never know how someone is going to react to news like that so they wait until you're in a safe environment.

Fern--I agree. Santiago's got the day wrong. It is also apparent he has it in his head that it happened before it actually did. If he was behind this, maybe he had waffled back and forth what day it should be done. Just a thought.

ABC--I also thought this was strange that the police called him. What is even stranger is that in his telling of the story, he says it was Nana calling again. He doesn't want to get on the line. But says "OK let's get this done.". Gets on the line and it is the police department on the line.

BUT WAIT, I THOUGHT HE SAID THE DOOR WAS LOCKED? HOW DID HE TALK TO SHERRY?

I read in an interview with the neighbor that they were often on the front porch, I think he may have been talking to Sherry on the porch while Antonio was in his crib inside. Just a thought.

ABC, I transcribed parts of the news conference with the father. Very strange, possibly incriminating statements made. An interesting read if you're following this case. The transcription and link to the interview are in this link: http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2013/03/shot-baby-case-daughter-questions.html

(near the bottom of the first page....there are two pages of comments)

Was an autopsy done? I haven't seen that information. It just seemed that the cremation happened quickly. Also, why cremation? Is that typical in her family? Was her son cremated?

The bullet recovered was from the baby's body, so I would assume an autopsy was done, though that has been the only indication from all the news stories. Antonio was murdered on Thursday, he was cremated either on Friday or Saturday day because by Saturday evening it was reported that he had been cremated....the memorial which the parents did not attend was on Saturday. Sherry did not want his ashes (she asked the crematorium to "dispose" of them) and had packed his clothing and diapers up for donation by Saturday...apparently a friend said the father has requested his ashes. But yeah, the parents have moved at supersonic speed to have his body and memory erased from their lives.

Just wanted to add, I just rewatched the interview with him. When he describes going to the hospital, seeing Sherry and asking "Where's my son?". He saus Sherry tells him that he is dead. Then he says "So..they took him out."It's really odd that he would use this language "they took him out" to describe his 1 yr old being killed. This is more a phrase used when someone has had a hit put out lon them like in a mobster movie or gang activity. Not necessarily saying this is incriminating, but it's at the very least talking about the baby like the baby is an adult.Strange also that he calls himself the baby's "LITTLE teddy bear and clown".

Layla, yeah, that is one of the strangest parts of the interview...he was in the middle of describing what Antonio was like, then switches his mid sentence and starts talking about his eyes and how blue they were....I had trouble figuring out what he was saying there and the meaning. I couldn't tell if he said "so WE took 'em out" or "so THEY took 'em out", which when you listen to him speaking, it sounds like he's referring to the baby's eyes, that someone took they baby's eyes out, which is insane. After listening to it I was thinking perhaps he was speaking about looking at Antonio's body in the hospital, then the staff wheeled his body out of the room. Or perhaps it was at the morgue?

When my Mom was passing from a tbi (Mom was too vain to wear a helmet, she saw her hairdresser weekly for a lifetime. I can't blame her) she fell frequently post strokes. We played talk radio, which she loved, and songs. One was 'Wild Thing'. It had much meaning, as was my husband's pet name for her. No smiles from the staff, sadly.

I do have to confess that I have to control the urge to dress Sam up for holidays. So when his nurse posted pics of him in a silly birthday hat..I didn't feel quite so odd.

You have one life on Earth. Live it, love others..and enjoy every minute you have!

Carla--Yes, it is so odd! I did not think of that about possibly he could have been referring to the baby's eues, but I definitely see what you're saying. I had considered possibly could he be referring to they took the baby out for him to see him? But after playing it a few times, I felt he was saying "so, they took him out" as a slang expression for they had killed him. But I agree, it is very ambiguous what exactly he means or is trying to say?!One other thing I thought was odd is that he says the reason why he wouldn't let Sherry walk alone with the baby us because the streets are so quiet someone could jump out of nowhere. I lived in a bad area for 2 yrs when I was younger, and it is not usually "quiet" that scares you but rather when you are walking by groups of shady looking people hanging around on the sidewalks. Quiet or empty streets would normally be reassuring. At least that is how I felt when living and walking in an area with known gang activity.