This is a discussion on Defending blinds within the online poker forums, in the Cash Games section; I think that this may be an area which is a leak in my game. Let's say we have someone who raises on the btn/co

I think that this may be an area which is a leak in my game. Let's say we have someone who raises on the btn/co a lot, they are a decent player and lets say they fold to 65% 3bets. We are in the BB. What hands would you be calling with and what hand would you 3bet. I know this s very villain dependent but generally what sort of hands do you guys call with and what hands do you 3bet with and how do you change this with different villain types?

#2

3rd September 2012, 1:06 AM

AlfieAA [8,990]

I only defend my blinds if I have a playable hand, it raised then you have to put the villian on a strong hand so there's not much point in calling with a crap hand......if someone is targeting you then their range is going to be wide, therefore I would 3bet them and tell to not mess with me donkey boy......lol

#3

3rd September 2012, 3:10 AM

youregoodmate [2,683]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: NLHE

Generally I will raise with AK and 99+ for value, and 3 bet with suited connectors as a bluff. They will either hit big or miss, so you rarely get into trouble spots with them.

You dont want be 3 betting hands like A10, KJ etc.
Consider a buttons opening range to be 22+, Ax, Kxs, K8+ etc. With a hand like A10 we dominate a large portion of their range.
If we 3 bet, their calling range is roughly, 88+, AJ+, KQ+. We are now frequently dominated and have to play the hand out of position. This is without including hands they may 4 bet light with. This all depends on villains button preflop raise percentage as well. Against tighter players its better to give up trouble hands like A10.

So flat the raise unless they have a ridiculously high fold to 3 bet stat, say 95%.

#4

3rd September 2012, 12:00 PM

js520 [292]

Online Poker at: 888.com

Game: holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by youregoodmate

Generally I will raise with AK and 99+ for value, and 3 bet with suited connectors as a bluff. They will either hit big or miss, so you rarely get into trouble spots with them.

You dont want be 3 betting hands like A10, KJ etc.
Consider a buttons opening range to be 22+, Ax, Kxs, K8+ etc. With a hand like A10 we dominate a large portion of their range.
If we 3 bet, their calling range is roughly, 88+, AJ+, KQ+. We are now frequently dominated and have to play the hand out of position. This is without including hands they may 4 bet light with. This all depends on villains button preflop raise percentage as well. Against tighter players its better to give up trouble hands like A10.

So flat the raise unless they have a ridiculously high fold to 3 bet stat, say 95%.

Thanks for the reply, was very helpful. What would you do with small pocket pairs and hands like weak suited Aces?

#5

3rd September 2012, 3:54 PM

hackmeplz [2,093]

re: Poker & Defending blinds

65% fold to 3-bet means you can pretty much 3-bet ATC and show a profit (needs to be 67% I think to make a profit directly but if you ever get them to fold to a cbet or he ever flats and you make a good hand that has to make up for extra 2%). It's a pretty big mistake then to be 3-betting hands like 99, unless they fold way less to 3-bets. We're getting them to fold all the hands we beat and 4b some strong hands not allowing us to see a flop/flop a set against those hands, and then they will also call with some hands we're flipping with/beating maybe but not gonna make a ton of money postflop against.

Start 3-betting hands that are very bad, but seem pretty. 3-bet 94s. 3-bet 45o. 3-bet Q3s. If called c-bet only on obviously good boards or when you flop well. you're making most of your money preflop from this guy because he just folds way too much. Then yeah I agree with youregoodmate on flatting range. Flat most pairs (maybe fold 22-55 or maybe even 3b those hands although I'd rather 3-bet 94s before 22, not that you can't do both) and some broadway/high-card hands. These are ahead of his range, you're already getting odds, and they'll be fairly easy to play.

#6

3rd September 2012, 5:04 PM

youregoodmate [2,683]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by hackmeplz

65% fold to 3-bet means you can pretty much 3-bet ATC and show a profit (needs to be 67% I think to make a profit directly but if you ever get them to fold to a cbet or he ever flats and you make a good hand that has to make up for extra 2%). It's a pretty big mistake then to be 3-betting hands like 99, unless they fold way less to 3-bets. We're getting them to fold all the hands we beat and 4b some strong hands not allowing us to see a flop/flop a set against those hands, and then they will also call with some hands we're flipping with/beating maybe but not gonna make a ton of money postflop against.

Start 3-betting hands that are very bad, but seem pretty. 3-bet 94s. 3-bet 45o. 3-bet Q3s. If called c-bet only on obviously good boards or when you flop well. you're making most of your money preflop from this guy because he just folds way too much. Then yeah I agree with youregoodmate on flatting range. Flat most pairs (maybe fold 22-55 or maybe even 3b those hands although I'd rather 3-bet 94s before 22, not that you can't do both) and some broadway/high-card hands. These are ahead of his range, you're already getting odds, and they'll be fairly easy to play.

Quite the contrary, he doesnt fold that frequently. Its best not to 3 bet this guy light, especially when you will be playing the pot oop.

As for OP, I would flat small pairs in general, still set hunting. If villain is not deep (60BB+), then folding small PP or 3 betting may be better.

#7

3rd September 2012, 5:46 PM

js520 [292]

Poker at: 888.com

Game: holdem

BTW this guy who folds to 3bets 65% doesn't actually exist, I was just using that as an example. I don't use a HUD so I don't know any villains actual stats but I do take notes on how often they seem to fold to 3bets, what hands they call with etc.

Do you think weak Ax suited hands are profitable to call with vs a villain who opens a wide range on the button?

#8

3rd September 2012, 6:10 PM

youregoodmate [2,683]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by js520

BTW this guy who folds to 3bets 65% doesn't actually exist, I was just using that as an example. I don't use a HUD so I don't know any villains actual stats but I do take notes on how often they seem to fold to 3bets, what hands they call with etc.

Do you think weak Ax suited hands are profitable to call with vs a villain who opens a wide range on the button?

Yeah I know 'he' was an example. I usually fold small Axs but I think they would be better to 3 bet with than call.

#9

3rd September 2012, 6:58 PM

bstill1985 [8]

why would defending even be important in cash games if the blinds are never increasing?? I am confused, someone help explain the exact reason for defending blinds and playing out of position post flop when we don't have to except with the obvious hands that are going to dominate our opponents range 80% of the time when they are raising this frequently in position but folding close to 65% of the time to a 3B..I am just lost is all, just an explanation, thanks...

#10

3rd September 2012, 7:01 PM

JCgrind [2,490]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: 6Max NLHE

re: Poker & Defending blinds

Quote:

Originally Posted by js520

Let's say we have someone who raises on the btn/co a lot, they are a decent player and lets say they fold to 65% 3bets. We are in the BB. What hands would you be calling with and what hand would you 3bet.

as long as you have a decent postflop game, (and if youre SB dont have some spazz BB thats gunna go bonkers every time you 3b) my range would be something like

22-66, TT-AA, AJs+, AQo+, 67s+, A2-A9s

but then im an aggro banana playing 6m

#11

3rd September 2012, 7:06 PM

JCgrind [2,490]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: 6Max NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by bstill1985

why would defending even be important in cash games if the blinds are never increasing?? I am confused, someone help explain the exact reason for defending blinds and playing out of position post flop when we don't have to except with the obvious hands that are going to dominate our opponents range 80% of the time when they are raising this frequently in position but folding close to 65% of the time to a 3B..I am just lost is all, just an explanation, thanks...

because we put opponents in a shite spot where they have to have an actual hand, plus, if we actually are 3bing light we will be more likely to get payed off on our actual hands. besides if someones opening 50%+ from Bu we obv want to settle them the **** down so they cant just freely snag our blinds every rotation

#12

3rd September 2012, 9:49 PM

GWU73 [613]

Online Poker at: ACR

Game: NLHE PLO LHE

In a cash game, defending light is only a good idea if you know how to exploit the particular player. Do not make a habit of throwing away money. Occasionally 3betting will protect your blinds fairly well. If the villain is open raising light in position you can get into a bad spot calling. You may win a small pot or two, but you will usually just have to fold the flop. The occasional hidden pair you make with 96 will not offset the steady losses. There is a reason why everyone loses in the blinds long term.

#13

4th September 2012, 8:16 AM

JCgrind [2,490]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: 6Max NLHE

^ this isnt about making pairs with 96. this is about 3bing 96 and your villain not making shit and having to fold to your 1/2pot OTF- which is going to work a ton before you even factor in how many folds you get pre

#14

4th September 2012, 11:59 AM

js520 [292]

Online Poker at: 888.com

Game: holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchoop

as long as you have a decent postflop game, (and if youre SB dont have some spazz BB thats gunna go bonkers every time you 3b) my range would be something like

22-66, TT-AA, AJs+, AQo+, 67s+, A2-A9s

but then im an aggro banana playing 6m

Is this the range you 3bet or flat call? 3bet I would assume?

#15

4th September 2012, 3:52 PM

JCgrind [2,490]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: 6Max NLHE

re: Poker & Defending blinds

Quote:

Originally Posted by js520

Is this the range you 3bet or flat call? 3bet I would assume?

3b, give or take depending on how large vil f3b is. obv i mix up both what i 3b and call with, bar 77-99 which i pretty much always just flat

#16

4th September 2012, 4:02 PM

js520 [292]

Online Poker at: 888.com

Game: holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchoop

3b, give or take depending on how large vil f3b is. obv i mix up both what i 3b and call with, bar 77-99 which i pretty much always just flat

ok cool, so your not really flatting much at all. Just 77-99, the likes of KJ,KQ,QJ as well?

#17

4th September 2012, 4:34 PM

JCgrind [2,490]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: 6Max NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by js520

ok cool, so your not really flatting much at all. Just 77-99, the likes of KJ,KQ,QJ as well?

no point really, unless theyre opening wide so you crush their range. otherwise youre just gunna win a tiny pot when you hit TP as youll only usually get their flop Cbet out of them, otherwise youre just gunna lose a decent sized one cos youre OOP

#18

4th September 2012, 5:15 PM

js520 [292]

Online Poker at: 888.com

Game: holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchoop

no point really, unless theyre opening wide so you crush their range. otherwise youre just gunna win a tiny pot when you hit TP as youll only usually get their flop Cbet out of them, otherwise youre just gunna lose a decent sized one cos youre OOP

So your just folding KQ, KJ etc? (unless villain is a fish)

#19

4th September 2012, 7:05 PM

youregoodmate [2,683]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by js520

So your just folding KQ, KJ etc? (unless villain is a fish)

Depends on their range. If you think they'll be opening far weaker kings, queens or jacks then flatting will be profitable. If villain opens 12% on the button then I'd probably just fold them.

#20

5th September 2012, 4:09 AM

hackmeplz [2,093]

re: Poker & Defending blinds

Quote:

Originally Posted by youregoodmate

If villain opens 12% on the button then I'd probably just fold them.

Is this a joke or do you actually play against people like this? For reference when it's folded to me on the button I think my button open % is 75-80ish.

#21

5th September 2012, 3:28 PM

youregoodmate [2,683]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by hackmeplz

Is this a joke or do you actually play against people like this? For reference when it's folded to me on the button I think my button open % is 75-80ish.

Yeah some nits actually play like that, some with a pfr of like 2%. 75-80% is very very high though, mines more like 30-35%.

#22

5th September 2012, 9:10 PM

JCgrind [2,490]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: 6Max NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by hackmeplz

Is this a joke or do you actually play against people like this? For reference when it's folded to me on the button I think my button open % is 75-80ish.

hes serious. pretty lol hey

Quote:

Originally Posted by youregoodmate

Yeah some nits actually play like that, some with a pfr of like 2%. 75-80% is very very high though, mines more like 30-35%.

youll find as you move up to the much higher levels that people open a TON wider from LP. obv aggression is a key factor in poker, so higher levels and wider opening ranges go hand in hand. 30-35% sounds good to me for micros though

#23

6th September 2012, 5:54 AM

hackmeplz [2,093]

fwiw I was talking about my steal % on button not my total raising range. Obviously if someone opens first that number goes down and I'd expect someone with a pfr from button of 35% to be closish to 75% in terms of steal but not really sure. Raise when folded to (which is same as att to steal in LP) is the way to go in terms of using stats.

#24

10th September 2012, 9:25 AM

swingro [1,634]

Online Poker at: fulltilt.com

Game: holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchoop

as long as you have a decent postflop game, (and if youre SB dont have some spazz BB thats gunna go bonkers every time you 3b) my range would be something like

22-66, TT-AA, AJs+, AQo+, 67s+, A2-A9s

but then im an aggro banana playing 6m

I have a question. I saw this in couple of books but never found a good explanation. What about 77-99. It is better to flat them ? If so , how do we play them?

#25

10th September 2012, 10:47 AM

JCgrind [2,490]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: 6Max NLHE

re: Poker & Defending blinds

Quote:

Originally Posted by swingro

I have a question. I saw this in couple of books but never found a good explanation. What about 77-99. It is better to flat them ? If so , how do we play them?

bluffcatch.

no real point 3bing them because you fold out everything you beat and only get called by shit youre flipping with and raised by shit that generally crushes you.

we 3b 22-66 because theyre worthless postflop unless you set up, so 3bing adds to our fold equity postflop if we dont TID pre. (plus we can always 3b them, get called and still bink for a super disguised hand)

i pretty much just c/c flops and turns with them on those 1 over dry boards where most villains will x2 barrel IP, the occassional turn bluff c/r, you know