Perhaps what is meant is the changes that have been going on since 9/11.

For instance, it is more difficult for an honest person to fly nowadays. Homeland Security will soon be cracking down on personal freedom and privacy, probably has been.

Also, seems one of Bin Ladens goals was to get attention. For himself, AL Queada and Islam in general. Following the attacks, you'll notice several schools picked up an Islamic class.

And not to mention that terror acts around the world seem to be increasing each day.

We're speanding countless dollars to capture the terrorist ring leaders, when almost certainly there will be plenty of replacements should they be needed. Instead of eliminating the source of the problems (paving over the holy land) we are merely attacking the effects. Kinda like chasing our tails.

The biggest decline in terrorism is in...South America? America has started a campaign to attack the Middle East, with Iran and Syria next on the list? Iraqis are worse off than they were a year ago, and subject to the same terror as they were under Saddam Hussien? America is feared and hated around the world? America is going into debt while freedom is threatened by the Bush Administration?

Yep, sounds like more than what the terrorists could ever have hoped for.

I agree it's quite strange, to say the least, that Bin
Laden is still at large. I mean, you'd think that once
the US is really after someone with it's huge resources and
immensly advanced capabilities on all fronts they'd get'im
in two years.

As for the part about learning Islam to "understand" it, it's
TOTAL BS and it can only cause more damage. There is
nothing to understand about Islam for a normal person, there
are just ways to fight it.

I agree it's quite strange, to say the least, that Bin
Laden is still at large. I mean, you'd think that once
the US is really after someone with it's huge resources and
immensly advanced capabilities on all fronts they'd get'im
in two years.

As for the part about learning Islam to "understand" it, it's
TOTAL BS and it can only cause more damage. There is
nothing to understand about Islam for a normal person, there
are just ways to fight it.

Live long and prosper.

Next post like this, and I'm contacting Greg to see about banning you. Good luck.

Originally posted by russ_watters Winning what? I haven't heard of him coming forward to claim his prize.

Well, let's see. He's destroyed the WTC. That's pretty significant. He's got a large percentage of the american population living in fear. The whole world is turning against us, although that's more Bush's ineptitude, than bin Laden's accomplishment. He's tricked us into attack Iraq and desposing Saddam, one of his mortal enemies, thereby greatly tieing up american military resources that could have been used elsewhere. Although again, that's mostly Bush's ineptitude. He's gained thousands to millions of new supporters, now that we've screwed up. He probably is as happy as a clam?

What have we got? Our constitution has been raped. We've got history's biggest deficit. World opinion was solidly with us two years ago, that's gone. Oh, and now Tommy Chong is in prison.

Originally posted by Chemicalsuperfreak Well, let's see. He's destroyed the WTC. That's pretty significant. He's got a large percentage of the american population living in fear. The whole world is turning against us, although that's more Bush's ineptitude, than bin Laden's accomplishment. He's tricked us into attack Iraq and desposing Saddam, one of his mortal enemies, thereby greatly tieing up american military resources that could have been used elsewhere. Although again, that's mostly Bush's ineptitude. He's gained thousands to millions of new supporters, now that we've screwed up. He probably is as happy as a clam?

What have we got? Our constitution has been raped. We've got history's biggest deficit. World opinion was solidly with us two years ago, that's gone. Oh, and now Tommy Chong is in prison.

Originally posted by megashawn What? Tommy Chong is in jail? What for?

For helping terrorists. Tommy Chong is co-owner, and is front man for a company which sold bongs over the internet. So Ashkroft and the SS are hauling him off the a concent... uh... federal prison for nine months.

Staff: Mentor

Originally posted by Mattius_ speaking of free speech...

That concept does not apply to an internet bulletin board.

Zero, if drag had been talking about Branch Davidians instead of Muslims, would you have responded the same way? Why is it ok to condemn one religion and not another? What makes one a viable religion and another a cult? Is it simply the number of people who practice it?

I sincerely tried to keep an open mind about Islam. I used to believe that it couldn't possibly be bad - it just must be perverted by a few extremists. You may even be able to go back through my posts in the forum and see where I started to read the Koran and change my opinion. The Koran is a violent, mysoginistic, hateful, racist writing. What we call "extremists" are not extremists, they are the norm. The majority.

I believe that Islam has caught on so well in the middle east because they are destitude. Fat rich people don't complain, don't get bitter, and don't hate. When you are poor and hungry you are willing to latch on to a scapegoat. Hitler did it and it worked quite well.

I do not take this opinion lightly - I have thought through its implications as I believe drag has. Neither of us are the reactionary type. If you want to censure it because its unpopular, thats your perogative. Maybe thats easier than considering its validity.

Originally posted by megashawn What in the world does selling bongs have to do with helping terrorists? Was the money being used to help fund terrorist activitys? If yes, then I can understand him being in jail.

You are of course talking about tommy chong of cheech and chong fame correct?

I could see bong saling as helpful to terrorism as gasoline.

The 9-11 terrorist were muslim, there are muslims in afghanistan. Opium come from Afghanistan. Opium is a drug. Marijuana is a drug. Drug users use bongs to smoke marijuana. Tommy Chong sells bongs.

Originally posted by russ_watters That concept does not apply to an internet bulletin board.

Zero, if drag had been talking about Branch Davidians instead of Muslims, would you have responded the same way? Why is it ok to condemn one religion and not another? What makes one a viable religion and another a cult? Is it simply the number of people who practice it?

I sincerely tried to keep an open mind about Islam. I used to believe that it couldn't possibly be bad - it just must be perverted by a few extremists. You may even be able to go back through my posts in the forum and see where I started to read the Koran and change my opinion. The Koran is a violent, mysoginistic, hateful, racist writing. What we call "extremists" are not extremists, they are the norm. The majority.

I believe that Islam has caught on so well in the middle east because they are destitude. Fat rich people don't complain, don't get bitter, and don't hate. When you are poor and hungry you are willing to latch on to a scapegoat. Hitler did it and it worked quite well.

I do not take this opinion lightly - I have thought through its implications as I believe drag has. Neither of us are the reactionary type. If you want to censure it because its unpopular, thats your perogative. Maybe thats easier than considering its validity.

The Branch Davidians killed cops and raped little girls. All of them, right there complicitly. They could have surrendered, and they would have gotten a trial with full due process. Nobody hates them because of their cultism, but because they kill cops and rape little girls.

Islam, on the other hand has hundreds of millions of worshippers here in america and abroad. 99.99 percent of them have never done anything wrong to anybody.

Furthermore, the Koran is no more racist, violent, misogynistic, or racist than the Bible. And christianity has sparked just as much murder and terrorism as Islam, Northern Ireland and the KKK are just two example. Really, there's very little difference between the religions, or there followers.

Also, the Middle East is hardly destitute. The countries that we haven't sanctioned and bombed into submission are so rich that they have to import blue collar workers. Osama bin Laden has millions.

So, it seems, you've just biased yourself against hundreds of millions of human beings based on the action of nineteen. You say you've studied the Koran, criticize it while ignoring the teaching and actions of religions, shall we say, closer to home.

No, Russ. I don't think you've come to this decision lightly. More likely it comes from deep-seated, possibly childhood, fear, hate, and ignorant bigotry towards people different than yourself.

I feel that perhaps some of you did not understand
what I mean to say (for example Zero told me I threaten
violence against 1/5 of humanity). The fact that some
people actually see my words like that, in my opinion,
is already a partial indication of how people's minds
can get twisted today. In no way do I support violence
against people of any religion or belief. The only people
I support violence against (and preferably the effective type)
are those who act on those beliefs and try to.

To speak of violence is to make us the same as them.
It means that we hate the people and want them dead
because of that. THAT IS WRONG ! Hate is wrong and
killing is wrong !

The type of struggle that I'm talking about is an
ideological struggle. A struggle between the ideals
and morals formed in the western world and solidified in the
past half a century and those formed in the Islamic world
mainly in the past half a century. Instead of "values" of hate,
murder of the infidels and laying blame for your own
low level of life on others, "values" dictated by the
religous laws of the sharia, "values" that do not support
the tiniest level of equality between males and females,
"values" that preach for a total Islamic world and "values"
that view technological and scientific progress as unwanted:
Instead of these values these people must be educated according
to the modern values of freedom, equality, progress and respect.
Inclusion not seclusion is the way of free societies.

The Soviets or the Chineese or the Cubans did not engage in
senseless murder or hate towards other peoples even if they
did use force to rule. They shared some of these values and
they respected and accepted the other sides as human beings
living on the same planet, though having completely different approaches as to how to achieve the modern utopia.

But these people are not taught these things, they are taught
to hate the people not just their ideas. They are taught
blind obidience to their faith - the "will" of which
originates from their leaders - wheather religious or
political.

It is easy to believe in certain idealised perspectives
when you're born and live in the western world. But it
is surprising how simple it is - through lifelong education
and ideology preachings to have a totally different world view.
The kind of view that the Nazis educated their youngsters to
in just a decade, due to which they were not bothered with
the intentional mass murder of helpless people that did
not "belong" to their "race".

It is this flow of poison that we must stop through different -
western ideology, through financial and political pressure and manipulation against these regimes and presecution of
religious leaders/educators and preachers and finally through
the occasional - as limmited as possible, international
military action in specific cases against specific people
who pose a real and present danger.

The war on the infiltration of western ideals into Muslim
countries had begun there a long time ago, fueled by the
cold war machinations of the USSR, US and Europe.
It is time to start a serious counter attack - a counter
attack of the ideals we believe in and follow and live
according to, ideals that work to advance humanity
rather than plunge it back into the dark ages.