lol i love how the same critics always are always quick to point out Bargnani's negative stats. Then when they analyze fan boys like Ed and Amir they pull out these miracoulous stats which make them appear all star esque.

Derozen is a second year player who has a long way to go. His rebounding numbers and assists are both pretty low at the moment but it is likely he ill get there. The kid has size, decent speed, and he hustles, so there is no reason to think he won't make some big strides on the glass and on D over the next few seasons. That's the thing though, it will take time. When Bargs was drafted, we were told that it would take him 5 years to get to the point we could judge his game. This is the fifth year so this is when the judgement was made. I'd say DD is going to be at least 4 years before he starts to get experienced enough and strong enough to make a difference on D. So Multi, if in two seasons Demar continues to disappoint start this thread again.

"When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
-Scudworth

Personally, I like Bargnani. I don't love him and I don't hate him. With that he frustrates the hell out of me just as much as he amazes me.

Unfortunately for Raptors fans, there is no true stud on the team. Everyone considered a part of the future is, as of now, only potentially a piece on a good team. If it takes moving a piece to get or draft a player that will help the team down the road, do it.

I have no doubt Bargnani can have a positive impact on a good team. The problem is it seems like it would be easier to trade him to a team with the foundation already in place than to build in Toronto.

The bottom line is the Raps are 20-53. No one is expendable.

As others have pointed out, I have a feeling (a gut feeling, so consider it an opinion) that the hold up in re-signing Colangelo is the bean counters in MLSE who do not believe they can build a winner with (or around, but I prefer with i.e. a piece) Bargnani. If word gets out BC is willing to trade him, it takes the main argument out of the sails of the MLSE anti-BC people.

Derozen is a second year player who has a long way to go. His rebounding numbers and assists are both pretty low at the moment but it is likely he ill get there. The kid has size, decent speed, and he hustles, so there is no reason to think he won't make some big strides on the glass and on D over the next few seasons. That's the thing though, it will take time. When Bargs was drafted, we were told that it would take him 5 years to get to the point we could judge his game. This is the fifth year so this is when the judgement was made. I'd say DD is going to be at least 4 years before he starts to get experienced enough and strong enough to make a difference on D. So Multi, if in two seasons Demar continues to disappoint start this thread again.

Well, I hear your points bro, BUT.....
DD is a starter. He as put in as a starter.

Bargs wasnt.

If DD is gonna be a starter on our team at one of the most important and hard to defend positions in the league, he has to be better, or else we are doomed for his "maturation" period

Personally, I like Bargnani. I don't love him and I don't hate him. With that he frustrates the hell out of me just as much as he amazes me.

Unfortunately for Raptors fans, there is no true stud on the team. Everyone considered a part of the future is, as of now, only potentially a piece on a good team. If it takes moving a piece to get or draft a player that will help the team down the road, do it.

I have no doubt Bargnani can have a positive impact on a good team. The problem is it seems like it would be easier to trade him to a team with the foundation already in place than to build in Toronto.

The bottom line is the Raps are 20-53. No one is expendable.

As others have pointed out, I have a feeling (a gut feeling, so consider it an opinion) that the hold up in re-signing Colangelo is the bean counters in MLSE who do not believe they can build a winner with (or around, but I prefer with i.e. a piece) Bargnani. If word gets out BC is willing to trade him, it takes the main argument out of the sails of the MLSE anti-BC people.

Good points. But honestly, humbly, this post is about DD.
Matt what do you think of DDs progress? Is he living up to the hype?

No i just want your final answer ! What is your definition of a good defensive player. I will frame the definition on my wall so that I know when you change your definition daily I can laugh out loud.

A good defensive player is a player who, you know, plays good defense. Lots of players have gotten steals and blocks while playing poor defense and visa versa. Joe Dumars was one of the greatest perimeter defenders in the last 30 years and he never averaged more than 1.1 spg. His teammate, Laimbeer, was an excellent defender, but has a career bpg average of 0.9.

Tyrus Thomas is a spectacular shot blocker, but has a ways to go before he'll be a good defender. Same goes for JaVale McGee.

In fact, the notion that shot blocking does not necessarily equal good defense is not a new or even remotely controversial opinion.

And I've never, ever changed my definition of a good defender, so I really don't know why you would say that other than to try and insult me. I've often talked about how you can be a good shotblocker and not a good defender.

Who cares it doesnt matter blocks don't mean anything. I beleive he averages 8 bpg but according to you block don't mean nothing anyway who even cares if his stats are off.

The fact is the stats that Multipaul brought up were either a lie or simply incorrect. If you're going to try and bring stat into a discussion to back up your argument, it's probably best not to make them up. It pretty much nullifies your argument.

Good points. But honestly, humbly, this post is about DD.
Matt what do you think of DDs progress? Is he living up to the hype?

Paul if you review the posts you discussed Bargnani in #1 and #5. The first few responses were all DD. You can't open a can of worms and then complain because they are crawling over the table. (BTW, is that an expression? If not, I would like to claim it).

As for my thoughts, you may not like them. I started a thread calling him out in November and have since lived to (thankfully) regret it.

There is no doubt he was drafted a project. I'm pretty sure every pre-draft write up on him had 'raw' and 'athleticism' all over it.

If you look at his development physically, he has been extremely impressive. His skinny little frame is starting to fill out and there is much more room for development.

If you look at his development offensively, last year he was a stand up 17-18ft jump shooter with an occassional lob dunk. This year he is showing great ability to play without the ball running off screens to get a look. His dribbling ability was awful last year so it is not hard to improve on it, but give him credit, he has - granted there is still much improvement needed. His jump shot has become very consistent and he has developed a post game - there have been a couple of moves that left my jaw hanging. He definitely needs to improve on his finishing but that comes back to his physical development, in my opinion, and he has in fact improved in this regard from last year. He has shown flashes of creating for others and I'm sure as he gains experience, he will get better - there is no reason shown to think otherwise. People knock him for the 3 point shot but that is something he can develop down the road. As long as his toe is on the 3 point line, he has shown the ability to consistently knock down the long range 2. His FT% is great at 80% and since Jan. 1 he is averaging around 85%. Considering his FGA totals have doubled and he is a much more focal part of the offense, shooting a little over 47% on the season is very impressive.

From a rebounding perspective, I would like to see more and think he can and should be able to get roughly 5 per game.

From a defensive standpoint, he has shown improvement. He is doing better getting around screens and not losing his man. He has shown an edge and a willingness to stand his ground. He is averaging a steal a game which is respectable. His defense still does need to get much better. The reason for optimism on this is his physical tools and his shown desire to work hard and get better.

Considering his touches he has a reasonable 1.7 TO per game. He has shown these tend to come in bunches for him but given the amount of time he has had the ball this year - and he is still developing his handle - that is very respectable.

In summary, what do I think of his progress? Excellent. I could not have asked for anything more out of him this season. I hope he continues to play as well over the last 9 games and shows true determination and integrity.

What do I think of the hype? I'm not sure he's been hyped. The comparison to Jordan in a thread recently is a bit much but, besides that, considering the strides he has made, he deserves every bit of compliments he has received. Like it or not, agree or not, he was a project coming out of college. If he can improve his defense and ball handling this summer like he has improved his mid range and overall offensive game this season, he will be very widely respected around the league - and rightfully so.

Do I consider him a franchise player? Absolutely not. I do not think he will ever develop in to one either. If I had to choose between trading Bargnani after what I've seen in 5 years and DD after what I've seen in 2 years, I would pick DD to stay.

It's funny how in a thread like this, instead of talking about how DeMar can improve (and he has a lot, the guy is averaging 16 points per game) posters are arguing whether he is worse than another Raptor? Seriously?

I think DeMar has improved a lot, not just statistically but he's been more aggressive and more confident with his shot. Defense will come, he's quick athletic and very long. And it's easy to forget he's only 21. Last year he didn't drive enough, and didn't have a jumper. He has already addressed those issues. Shows what kind of player he is. I expect him to work hard again in the off-season, and I wouldn't be surprised if he is in the top15 in free-throws next year.

As you see, I posted my definition. Why on earth would you think I would be scared to post such an obvious thing. I never attacked you, but you continue to try to insult me. Why?

didn;t mean to insult you just wondering what criteria you use when evaluating defense so that next time I watch a game I can understand what constitutes a good defensive player. Don't be shy on your definition you can list your primary secondary criteria etc block shots is just one aspect I want your naked definition.

I love the fact that we, as fans of this team, have been so beat down, we're arguing on who is 'better'. They both don't play any defence, can't create one on one and rebound terribly for their position. On the bright side, they both can't pass. I'm giving Demar a little pass, just for the fact he's in his 2nd year, but if he's the same player next year that he is this year... and no one on this abortion of a team should be untouchable 'btw' or seen as a 'franchise player'. No one (and I mean, NO ONE) would be a starter for a championship contender right now.