Radio WBAI's Discussion of
The Bible According to Einstein

Transcript of the broadcast that took place on February 18, 1998

Dr. Michio Kaku:
I will bring on our first special guest who is
Professor Stuart Samuel,
professor of theoretical
physics at City College of New York.

So many times science books have been criticized
because they're dry, they're boring, they're
impersonal. And yet religious books have a certain
dynamism -- they're are full of stories and anecdotes
and colorful language and poetry. And the question is
why can't science be expressed in the language of
faith and yet still be scientifically rigorous. Of
course in the past, many artists and poets have been
fascinated by the drama of the Universe. Vincent van
Gogh, of course, tried to capture this mystery --
this fascination -- in his work Starry, Starry Night.

[music: lyrics related to Vincent van Gogh's
Starry, Starry Night]

Well throughout our history, poets, spiritualists,
[ah] theologians have had a monopoly in terms of
using the language of faith -- the rhythms and poetry
of faith -- to express their point of view while
scientists have been criticized as being sterile.
Well that's why we have our next guest Professor
Samuel, who is a colleague of mine at the City
College of New York. And he's been part of a rather
ambitious project. He is one of the editors of a book
called The Bible According to Einstein. That's
right, The Bible According to Einstein, which
is sort like a fresh new look at science and
religion.

And Dr. Samuel, first of all, could you first
explain to us the theme of The Bible According to
Einstein?

Professor Samuel:
Well, if I were to try to describe The Bible
According to Einstein in one sentence I would say
that it's "nature and science in a biblical format."

You know, several millennia ago, religions emerged
as powerful influences in people's lives. Indeed,
today they continue to be so. Also a few millennia
ago appeared the sacred books basic to the world's
major religions. An example is the Holy Bible. These
sacred books, for the most part, deal with issues of
morality, human behavior, judgment and spirituality.

During the last [pause] past few centuries,
another powerful force has arisen that greatly
affects people. It is science and the technology that
it brings. Science deals with a domain that is quite
different from religion. Science is a description of
the physical world, the things we see, hear and
touch. So much progress has been made in our
knowledge of nature, that it is fair to say that the
age of scientific enlightenment is here. But lacking
has been a book -- like the Holy Bible -- to
represent science and nature. The Bible According
to Einstein was written to fill this need. It is
in some sense "the bible for the third millennium,
the bible of science."

Sheldon Glashow (who is at Harvard) and who won
the Nobel prize in physics, supports this idea. He
described The Bible According to Einstein as
"A cosmic history and a bible for our times."

It is a tribute to the Holy Bible that this
science bible should emulate the Holy Bible in style
and in structure. [Ah] The Bible According to
Einstein has an "old testament" and a "new
testament." The old testament narrates the history of
the Universe, Earth and life, from the Big Bang
beginning to the emergence of Homo sapiens. The new
testament presents the laws of nature and [ah] deals
with some other issues such as man's intellectual and
spiritual developments. Much of the text is written
in a rhythmic language that approaches verse by the
way.

You should know when I first saw this book, I said
to myself that I had to get involved with it. When I
read the "old testament," it was such an enlightening
experience. To witness the ENTIRE history of the
Universe, Earth and life is (I'm not sure how to
explain it) [pause] breathtaking. I actually read the
"old testament" of The Bible According to
Einstein five times. The effects it had on me
still persisted with the fifth reading.

Your listeners will probably want an example of
the type of thing that I found enlightening.

Dr. Michio Kaku:
Well, let's [ah] start with the Book of Genesis [of
the Holy Bible]. [Ah] The Book of Genesis has the
creation myth. And cosmology today has the pretenses
of being a precise science. So could you explain to
us about how your book deals with the question of
creation. The Bible starts with the mist, that is,
comic darkness. And we think that the sky, the
Universe was always dark. Could you explain what
modern science has to say about that?

Professor Samuel:
Well, as you know, Dr. Kaku, we have a very good
understanding of how the Universe began. It began
with the Big Bang. [Ah] Many of your listeners
probably know this. During this period, the Universe
was extremely hot: light and energy were everywhere.
[If I] [pause] If I may quote from The Bible
According to Einstein. [pause] Let me see. Here.
Yes. It says, "The fog of light did fog the 'sight' -
it was a bath of light too bright to see; the World
was blinded by its own brilliant light."

Dr. Michio Kaku:
So in other words the darkness that we associate with
the blackness of outer space wasn't darkness at all?

Professor Samuel:
[Ah] Well. [Ah] During this early time, the Universe
was full of energy and there was an enormous amount
of light. During this time, the very fabric of space
was expanding. Actually this expansion has continued
throughout cosmic history and is still happening
today. Now when a system expands, it cools. You have
to remember that the very early Universe was very
hot. So as the Universe expanded and evolved, its
temperature when down. Eventually, the Universe
cooled sufficiently so that atoms could form. To be
more precise, electrons which were in the hot cosmic
bath, joined with protons, which were also in the hot
cosmic bath, to form neutral atoms. This event, which
is known as Recombination and which happened when the
Universe was about 300,000 years old, produced a
tremendous flash of light. "Let there be light. And
there was light," are appropriate words to describe
Recombination.

Dr. Michio Kaku:
So, in other words, before 300,000 years after the
Big Bang, matter as we know it didn't really exist.
Atoms as we know it didn't exist.

Professor Samuel:
It was just too hot.

Dr. Michio Kaku:
It was too hot.

And then after 300,000 years, atoms began to form
and then the so called blackness of outer space began
to form as well?

Professor Samuel:
Well, a little bit later. What happened was that, as
the Universe expanded, the wavelength of the light
was stretched. This caused the visible light to
become infrared radiation. By the way, nowadays, the
wavelength has been stretched so much that the
radiation has become microwaves and is known as the
cosmic background microwave radiation -- something
that I'm sure was discussed on your program before.

Dr. Michio Kaku:
The so-called echo of the Big Bang.

Professor Samuel:
Exactly. This radiation was first detected by
scientists in 1965. Anyway, coming back to the
history . . .

Dr. Michio Kaku:
And in fact, it was a graduate of City College who
made that discovery, Arno Penzias as well as Dr.
Wilson.

Professor Samuel:
That's right. Exactly.

Anyway, coming back to the history of the cosmos,
the Universe went completely black when it was about
1,000,000 years old. And it remained completely dark
for millions of years. There was no light at all --
it was infrared radiation. It wasn't until hundreds
of millions of years had passed that clouds of atoms,
dust and gas began to collapse to form the first
stars. This must have been a particularly wonderful
event in cosmic history. Soon collections of stars
and galaxies appeared. Perhaps, I should [ah] read a
paragraph from The Bible According to Einstein
thatDr. Michio Kaku:
Yes, go ahead. Professor Samuel:
describes what happened. The is the from the [ah] the
first chapter of the fifteenth book of creation,
called Galactic Birth. The fourteenth book of
creation had depicted the formation of a star, and
this section continues the story.

"Chapter I: A Galaxy Is Born.
And within
two-hundred-thousand light years of the new-born star,
other dense clouds collapsed and glowed. And
each year, a hundred new such stars appeared. And
after millions of years, there were several hundred
million stars. And if ye had been there, it would
have looked like unto a city in the evening,
seen from far away: Initially, a few lights turned
on. Then more. Then still more. And gradually spots
of lights filled what once had been black void. And
this collection of stars was provided with a name --
the name was galaxy. A galaxy was born."

So what you had was a black Universe in the year
1,000,000. And gradually, tiny specks of light (which
we call stars) turned on, so that after a few billion
years, the Universe was filled with tiny lights.

Now in some sense the Universe is still dark. This
is what you mentioned before. The stars in the
Universe are quite spread out, so that most of the
Universe is in fact black. We happen to live on a
planet not so far from a star, a star we call the
Sun. So when our part of the Earth faces that Sun, we
have light. And this makes us think that there is a
lot of light in the Universe. Our superficial
impression is that there is 50% light and 50%
darkness since half the time it is day and half the
time it is night. But in reality, the Universe is now
dark, whereas during the Big Bang it was brilliantly
bright with light.

The first chapter of The Bible According to
Einstein's The Gospel According to the Gospels,
which deals with one aspect of man's spiritual
development, describes this. And maybe I should read
this.

Dr. Michio Kaku:
Yes, go on.

Professor Samuel:
"For the Universe, there was
only one day and one night. And that one day lasted
for the first three-hundred-thousand years. And it
has been night ever since. It has been night
for the last fifteen-billion years or so. And do not
be confused by the illusion of the Sun. Even
now there is only night for the Universe. The day ye
see each day is a day created by the Earth's
rotation. When thy part of the Earth faces the
Sun, ye see the Sun and ye have day. And when thy
part of the Earth turns away from the Sun, ye
have night and ye see the Universe as it is.
And it is dark and black. Thus the dark
and black of night is the dark and black of the
Universe.
And to light the night a star
was made. But the Universe was vast and very black.
And the star only lit a very tiny part of the
gigantic Universe. And so stars were
made in great numbers and assembled in huge
galaxies. But the Universe was still vast and very
black. And each galaxy only lit a very tiny part of
the Universe. Thus galaxies were made in great
numbers. And the galaxies lit the Universe but
dimly.
And the Universe, which is
vast and dark and black, was, is and shall be dimly
lit by the stars and galaxies which Nature made."

Dr. Michio Kaku:
Well, Professor Samuel, do you think that [ah] this
approach of yours, that is, putting science in the
format of the Bible, do you think that it could have
an impact on science education in the country given
the fact that science education is at an abysmal low
with [ah] most graduates -- even at Harvard -- being
basically scientifically illiterate? Do you think
that a fresh new approach is required?

Professor Samuel:
I think that this approach can appeal to people in
the humanities because of, as you might have noticed,
the rhythmic language. It is written [ah] in a way
that has a chance to appeal to people [ah] that study
English, history . . . It's a wonderful language that
it is written in. And I think it's the non-scientist
that needs to know more about science. Science
education is so important. We need to understand how
the world works. Science provides us, in part, with
the knowledge to better conduct our lives. If, for
example, a person bases decisions on astrology, then
that person will make random actions that can lead to
a less productive life. El Nino, biological cloning,
electronic chips, Earth's ozone layer, the solar
system, nuclear power, viruses -- we need to know
these things.

The Bible According to Einstein provides a
great opportunity to learn much about science and
nature. You don't need to take my word for this.
Yolanda Moses, president of the American
Anthropological Association and president of the City
College of New York, a woman devoted to excellence in
education said that "The Bible According to
Einstein is an amazing feat that makes nature's
laws understandable even to the non-scientist." And
Samuel Ting at MIT who is a Nobel laureate in
physics, said that "The Bible According to
Einstein is a fascinating book, MOST EDUCATIONAL
[emphasized]. I have learned a great deal from it."
And Glenn T. Seaborg, another Nobel laureate but in
chemistry, made the following comment: "This
imaginative book traces the history of the Universe
and humankind, seen through the eyes of science and
told in the language of faith. Ultimately, it
provides a marvelous opportunity to learn a lot of
science and enjoy it." [last phrase said slowly with
emphasis]

Dr. Michio Kaku:
Now Professor Samuel, I understand that you are going
to be doing several readings in the New York area.
Could you tell us exactly when they are and what you
are going to talk about in these readings?

Professor Samuel:
Ah, yes. Listeners may want to get a pen and write
down the information. Each event, by the way, will be
different so that one could come to all of them.

On Thursday, February 19, at 6:00 pm at Borders
Books at 5 World Trade Center, there will be a
reading of the Book of Prophets of The Bible
According to Einstein under the title
"Predictions for the Next 100 Billion Years." The
chapters of this Book of Prophets provide predictions
that will definitely or almost definitely happen
based on scientific knowledge.

"Chapter VII [pause] of The Book of Prophets
called Micah.
And the king asked the sixth
prophet, whose name was Micah, 'What will happen
within ten-million years from now?' And Micah
answered, saying, 'It shall come to pass that Baja
California and a slither of southwestern California
will have drifted north and be a long island
off the west coast of the United States. And Los
Angeles will be west of Sacramento. And Tijuana,
Mexico, will be west of Fresno, California.'"

Let me explain [ah] what is going on here. The
surface of the Earth is covered by about a dozen
large sheets called tectonic plates. These plates act
like units moving slowly over the asthenosphere, or
Earth's upper layer of the outer mantle. The plates
move about much like giant icebergs in a crowded sea.
Now the west coast of California is part of the
Pacific tectonic plate, while the rest of California
is part of the North American tectonic plate. The
dividing line between the two plates forms the San
Adreas faults. The Pacific plate is drifting north a
few centimeters each year. Once in a while, this
plate suddenly inches forth and an earthquake occurs.
During millions of years, tectonic plates can move
significant distances. This explains why Los Angeles
will be one day west of Sacramento.

This movement will actually continue. Let me read
from Chapter VIII of The Bible According to
Einstein's Book of Prophets:
"And the king asked the
seventh prophet, whose name was Nahum, 'What will
happen within a hundred-million years from now?' And
Nahum answered, saying, 'It shall come to pass that
Baja California and Los Angeles will have slid into
the Aleutian trench south of Alaska. And they will be
drawn into the lower crust and disappear. And
Baja California and Los Angeles will be lost.
And above them will be mountains. And the mountains
will be like unto tombstones -- testimony of
their demise.'"

Dr. Michio Kaku:
Now Professor Samuel I understand that you have a
book of Catastrophes and a book of the Cretaceous
talking about asteroids and dinosaurs.

Professor Samuel:
That's right. The next reading event of The Bible
According to Einstein takes place on Friday,
February 20th at 7:00 pm at Tower Books, which is at
383 Lafayette Street. The title of that presentation
is "Black Plague! Can It Happen Again?" And this is a
reading from Chapter III of the Bible According to
Einstein's Book of Catastrophes.

The black plague struck in the fourteenth century
and kill almost one-hundred million people worldwide,
about one fifth the world's population. This is the
only time during recorded history where the human
population decreased. This chapter of The Bible
According to Einstein narrates an account of
history's most devastating sickness.

And the third reading event will take place on
Saturday, February 28 at 12 noon at the Logos
Bookstore at 1575 York Avenue. By the way, Logos is
one of the nice independent neighborhood bookstores
located in the Yorkville area of Manhattan. The title
of that book presentation will be "The Demise of the
Dinosaurs." As you know Dr. Kaku, 65 million years
ago an asteroid struck Earth causing widespread
ecological damage and killing off the dinosaurs. I
think you discussed this on your program before.

Dr. Michio Kaku:
That's right.

Professor Samuel:
The attendees of this presentation will have an
opportunity to relive this experience as the details
of this story are told. It was an important event in
geo-history. Without this asteroid impact disaster,
dinosaurs and reptiles instead of humans might be
ruling the Earth today.

All these reading events are free. And [cough]
readers will be able to obtain signed copies of
The Bible According to Einstein.

By the way, the book has been printed in only a
limited edition, so that it is currently available
just in New York. Listeners outside of New York can
obtain copies of The Bible According to
Einstein through the internet at Amazon.com.

Dr. Michio Kaku:
And any final comments you may have concerning your
book The Bible According to Einstein, a novel
attempt to recast science in the language of faith?

Professor Samuel:
[Ah] The Bible According to Einstein aims to
create a greater consciousness about the cosmos,
Earth and life. It provides the opportunity of
enlightenment through the discovery of how nature
works. Our understanding of the physical world during
the last few decades has increased tremendously. In
some sense, the Second Coming is coming; but it is
science that is coming.