I'm kinda confused at exactly what M9 and Macca are trying to say here.

If you want to make the argument that you can equip a route however you like and no-one is obligated to climb it if they don't want to, ok I get that.

If you want to argue that hangerless bolts are their own experience that should be preserved and not blindly done over with rings/Us, ok I get that too (and actually agree to an extent), although it's a mighty pain in the b to pull apart my rack and find suitable biners and borrow enough bolt plates.

If you want to make the argument that people should evaluate fixed protection with their own eyes and experience before they use it, ok...once you explain how I can evaluate a bolt that experience has shown looks the same whether it's good or not.

If you want to argue that carrots do work in some circumstances, yes they do, so do pitons, but you are going to have to argue mighty hard that they aren't the WORST bolting system on balance that you can choose today. Ok, I should be use mild steel because the rust expansion is a feature?!? Now that sure as hell isn't an engineering principle.

I accepted that carrots still had a place in ground-up new routes on sandstone...until I saw mikl's test results for 8mm screwbolts (that you can buy ready to go in Bunnings) holding 20kn in tension.

Sorry Neil. I should not have put words into your mouth. I largely agree with you and SBM. My only comment was that bash-ins failing and being inconsistent under tension is no surprise to me. Surely the obvious community question are:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Should new placement of bash-in bolts be disallowed? (what about ground up ascents?)
Should existing bash-in bolts be replaced (all? or just ones that meet XX-criteria?)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would expect that most of the non-bolting community would happily never have to deal with carrots and bash-ins again. But those out there actually bolting do deserve to have have more say than the idle majority.

Just to clarify, many of the bolts in question are bash in stainless carrots in overhanging rock WITH FIXED HANGERS - see Neils photo on the first post

e.g Path of Yin, Desert Rose, After Midnight, Serpentine etc

The fixed hanger, tight up against the rock creates an excellent lever to loosen the bolt.

Many people have climbed these routes assuming that the bolts are expansions. All you see is a fixed hanger and a hexagonal head - an easy mistake to make but it could cost you your life.

Which one is the most dangerous ticking bomb?

- Path of Yin bolt 4 (groundfall when the bash-in bolt pulls out of the 65 degree overhang, horrible landing onto rock shelves)
- Desert Rose - super classic, very popular, dodgy bolts, at least the ground is flat, you might get away with paraplegia.
- Serpentine pitch 2 first bolt (factor 2 onto the belay, serious for leader and belayer)
- Serpentine pitch 2 last bolt (often used as a lower off - stripping all the gear below, bolt failure would cause a ground fall from high up on Taipan!)

I'm interested to see your list Neil, might cause a few of us to shudder.

On 14/11/2013 chalkischeap wrote:>Just to clarify, many of the bolts in question are bash in stainless carrots>in overhanging rock WITH FIXED HANGERS - see Neils photo on the first post>>e.g Path of Yin, Desert Rose, After Midnight, Serpentine etc>>The fixed hanger, tight up against the rock creates an excellent lever>to loosen the bolt.>>Many people have climbed these routes assuming that the bolts are expansions.>All you see is a fixed hanger and a hexagonal head - an easy mistake to>make but it could cost you your life.>>Which one is the most dangerous ticking bomb?>>- Path of Yin bolt 4 (groundfall when the bash-in bolt pulls out of the>65 degree overhang, horrible landing onto rock shelves)>- Desert Rose - super classic, very popular, dodgy bolts, at least the>ground is flat, you might get away with paraplegia.>- Serpentine pitch 2 first bolt (factor 2 onto the belay, serious for>leader and belayer)>- Serpentine pitch 2 last bolt (often used as a lower off - stripping>all the gear below, bolt failure would cause a ground fall from high up>on Taipan!)>>I'm interested to see your list Neil, might cause a few of us to shudder.

On 14/11/2013 patto wrote:>Fixed hangers and bash-ins do seem like a recipe for disaster.

Attaching a hanger to a carrot, particularly on steep routes can be problematic when the hanger has the possibility of acting as a lever. There are situations where lowering off steep routes may put an outward force on the carrot as the draw swings outwards and is put under a varying amount of tension and/or cyclic loading during lowering.

In the end, the reason carrots were used by most of the installers was cost, which has been confirmed in many conversations. There has been a revisionist take on this ascribing to it an aesthetic purity, which is mostly a nonsense rewriting of history.

I know HB takes a lot of care and pays attention to what he is doing when placing fixed protection. Neil's experience demonstrated that the concept has hidden variables that even the most zealous installer is unable to control. The same can be said for the bolt on Body Heat (its installer incidentally told me recently that the freeze thaw cycles at Buffalo may be a problem with regards to bash in carrots over even the short to medium term).

On 14/11/2013 The good Dr wrote:>On 14/11/2013 patto wrote:>>Fixed hangers and bash-ins do seem like a recipe for disaster.>>Attaching a hanger to a carrot, particularly on steep routes can be problematic>when the hanger has the possibility of acting as a lever. There are situations>where lowering off steep routes may put an outward force on the carrot>as the draw swings outwards and is put under a varying amount of tension>and/or cyclic loading during lowering.>>In the end, the reason carrots were used by most of the installers was>cost, which has been confirmed in many conversations. There has been a>revisionist take on this ascribing to it an aesthetic purity, which is>mostly a nonsense rewriting of history.>>I know HB takes a lot of care and pays attention to what he is doing when>placing fixed protection. Neil's experience demonstrated that the concept>has hidden variables that even the most zealous installer is unable to>control. The same can be said for the bolt on Body Heat (its installer>incidentally told me recently that the freeze thaw cycles at Buffalo may>be a problem with regards to bash in carrots over even the short to medium>term).

On 14/11/2013 The good Dr wrote:> (its installer>incidentally told me recently that the freeze thaw cycles at Buffalo may>be a problem with regards to bash in carrots over even the short to medium>term).

On a similar note a friend told me the other day they were doing some rebolting work on Taipan in the late afternoon (in the sun) and couldn't budge a couple of carrots. They came back the next morning (cool in the shade) and the bolts came out with minimal effort. So time of day (heat) may be a factor in bash-in carrot bolt failure!

Macca and M9, the engineers would laugh when yo tell them you are trusting you, your friends and others life to something you filed in your garage and can not guarantee the consistancy of or what its going into in any way!

Macca, I am still yet to understand how replacing a single bash in with a single ring on a mixed route (ie bolt for bolt, not adding bolts) will change the character of the route??? It is still mixed, still requires gear placed and one bolt clipped!!!

As Mikl stated!!! - They are dangerous (failure has occurred on many occasions, not once)

after replacing a bunch of bolts on spurt it was interesting to see many of the mild steel bolts rusting from the inside out. they looked totally fine from the outside, but had extensive pitting and corrosion on the shaft of the dynabolt. not a cause for immediate concern but good to know that some rock in the gramps has moisture seeping from within the rock. thats why those spurt routes feel spoogy/wet on the patina holds some days.

as for those carrots, they are absolutely bomber, break at 30kN or so. When they're newly placed, before expansion and contraction in the sun/shade do their thing, before a million whippers are taken on them wiggling them ever closure to failure.... so not so bomber 30 years after the fact...

My biggest fear in all this though is a bad job being done replacing them, the inevitable new bolts on Serpentine better look nice! Please use glue-ins(U's or rings) if you do it too for a longer lasting solution!!

Simon, your rebolting of Weak Boy is excellent! Very slight repositioning, but basically the same as the original - except the bolts don't put doubts in your mind. Thanks for your recent efforts at Spurt.
And yes, Spurt does seep from inside the rock.
Michael

As someone who is "risking their life" on bash in carrots (my gear is up on Serpentine, I'll be up there again tomorrow probably taking more whips on those bolts), allow me to add my 2c.

If anyone goes and rebolts those mega classic routes without Malcolm's consent, I'll find out who you are, come and chop as many of your bolts as I can, and generally seek to fuch your shit up. If you can't talk to the bloke who put the routes up and gain his blessing, then you are not the right person for the job. If you're scared to get on the routes as they are, then those routes aren't for you.

The F.A. is not a vindictive person, I am. End of internet threaty chit-chat.

What nobody seems to have considered here, is that the bolts in question had to bear the brunt of an attempted removal the day before.
Yep, they came out easy in the morning, but what more can you expect from a bolt that has had an attempt at removal the day before.
Surely this weakened the placement.

Damo, once again a complete waste of space spray that was unnecessary on what had been a constructive thread/coversation. Nobody said anything about not consulting him. Actually if you read the prior posts it was asked if someone that knew Malcom coulld approach him about the replacement! We arent talking about retroing we are talking about replacement bolt for bolt. Relax please, alot of these bolts already have hangers on them (I know as I have climbed many of them) so what is the difference, a ring if done properly can be less intrusive, Atleast the conversation is occurring prior to any action.