Everton lead in performance analytics

Everton are currently one of the Premier League's most innovative and progressive teams when it comes to the use of performance analytics. The team has been using match data analysis ever since David Moyes first became manager at Goodison in 2002.

"Moyes wanted something in place to provide him with extensive information because he's so detailed, thorough and methodical in his work," said Steve Brown, First Team Performance Analyst at Everton. The fundamental basis for Everton's pre and postmatch work is provided by the Prozone software which provides the eventing details, player tracking and physical data from which Brown and his team build their analysis.

The climate of change when it comes to use of data for match analysis is probably best reflected in the transformation in players' attitudes. Today, at Everton it's commonly used and accepted at every level down from the senior squad to the youth academy.

"I think initially some players were sceptical toward it," said Brown. "I've had past experiences where people have viewed it as a negative tool and if it's used wrongly it can be damaging in the coaching process."

There's no question that some among the old guard of players within the professional ranks were initially apprehensive or resentful toward the data and questioned not only its application, but its usefulness. "That was where the main boundaries lay," said Brown.

"Some of the older generation of players who weren't as familiar with working in a detailed analysis process — of which we do a large amount of at Everton. At Everton, they've had to buy into the process and if they don't buy into the process, they'll just get frustrated because of the way the manager works here."

Many thanks to Derek O'Neill for pointing us to this interesting article from Sports Illustrated, the major sports magazine in the US that for many years despised 'Soccer' as a valid sport, focusing almost exclusively on the major sports in the USA, and some rather nice ladies in swimsuits.

As the article reads, with the like of Tim Howard and Landon Donovan playing for Everton, it's a bit harder to ignore European Soccer these days, with live games now occasionally getting airtime on the national channels, Fox and ESPN.

Moyes brought in the idea to use this but its obvious he must ignore it when he feels like. It was documented earlier in the season that Cahill had covered more ground than most players in the league but was down with the keepers for the amount of touches per game.

And it doesn't take technology to see that Saha couldn't be arsed and was never going to score.

Someone should really find or construct some sort of table which puts everyone's (outside of the old Sky 4's) trophy records next to each other. These should only be trophies that Moyes has actually competed for with Everton. How many clubs will have won trophies? There'll be a few anomalies like Portsmouth and Birmingham who benefitted from a combination of investment, bad final opposition, and luck, to win theirs. Should Moyes be as criticised as harshly as he is for not winning anything? Where is a comparable counterpart to compare him to?

I could not agree more with Steve King on this. I?ve stayed quiet on this as I?ve had my moments with Moyes (even demanding he resigned when I got on 5 live after leaving the Hawthorne?s having been stuffed 4-0 a few years back). However his record over the last 8 years has been as follows (ripped of the Beeb);

I think I can speak for my generation of blues (26year old) that he has been quite the god send from the dross we had to endure season on season before. His transfer dealings have 90% of the time been great and his net spend speaks huge volumes on what he?s achieved. You only need to ask a non-Evertonian what they think of Moyes to see his stature in the game, not that they matter I might add.

I know the football we have played at times doesn?t showcase the quality of our squad and that frustrates me big time, but I believe we can be all too quick to forget that this is HIS squad. I know we have a great history and that as a blue we shouldn?t be drowning in elation at a top 7 finish but from my OWN experience the man has saved us years of nervous terror come april/may and even worse I believe, the regular away trips to Turf Moor and Portman Road we?d have to endure had we been relegated. I was in Kharkiv and Nurenbourg and will never forget doing the Mancs at Wembley.

I?m not saying he?s as a result free from critism, far from it in fact, but I think he at least deserves another couple of years to try and win us that trophy or get us in Europe again as after all without him IMHO we?d have none of the above. Martinez/Rodgers/Adkins don?t do it for me afraid.

Now I know having listened to Dad?s tales of Rotterdam 85 that I?m not setting the bar very high, but without him I dread that we?d slip back into that dross side (bar the big man) throughout the 90?s that I?d rather never have to witness again. Still it was easier to get away tickets then. Maybe that says something!

Charlie, as said many times, no one (at least none that I have read) are disputing his record in the early years. However, many (including me) feel its time for a change as the squad he has now has great potential and we feel another manager (don't bother with the 'who would you have instead?' question) could do better and also put a lot more pressure on BK.

Its too cosy a relationship between the two and things have gotten stale (yes the last couple of months have been good but they don't make up for the first 5 months or the semi final for me.).

He could also do better with transfers IMO. Every club has to sell and buy so I don't go along with this whole complex about benig a 'selling club'. E.g. we should have moved Billy on much earlier and should have taken the 12-14m offered for Jags last summer. Added to that there are loads of players on a free every season and Gibson is the only one in the recent past that we've approached (got a low price as his contract was up at the end of this season). On the other hand he moans constantly above not havving any money - either put more pressue on the board or stf up about it - we know!

Just my thoughts.

For me to change my mind, we will have to finally start a season running and play decent football for a hell of a lot of games. A couple of months is a start but he will have to show positive football for a lot longer than that for me to be happy to have him as manager for another 5 years. Also he can try leading from the front and taking a 20% paycut himself instead of preaching about it - he'd still take home 2.4m a year!

I went to a Q & A session with Mick Rathbone in London just before Christmas, and in answer to one question, he said that Moyesie believes that the team that runs the most generally wins the game. There is no specific data which confirms this scientifically, but this is one of the reasons why Moyesie pushes the players so hard in training, and favours hard working attacking players over mavericks.

It doesn't really surprise me that he uses stats to monitor the players. I think most managers use such data these days.

However I try to look at the situation realistically and I believe that responsibility for our continued progress (or lack of it) is split equally between the Manager and the Board. IMO the manager has done his bit, the progress has recently stalled, but the finger is all too often pointed at the wrong person.

I understand his frustration as manager. The company I work for treats us in a similar manner. For years we have been building towards certain goals and KPI's, and our progress is often praised buy the board. However they keep cutting budgets and selling our best assets and we need to go out and find cheaper replacements and yet continue to improve our results. I just thank god we dont have millions (???) of fans around the world scrutinising our every move and result as well!!!

But then again, as I'm sure someone will point out, I dont get paid £3m a year either!!

Thanks Denis, i agree with a lot of what you said. Especially regarding selling players at the right time. Not sure on Jags but i remember Saha was subject to a £10m bid from Wolfsburg and we turned it down. I do feel however though that you have to answer the question of who you'd replace him with as that surely that comprises you're whole arguement of getting rid. Who will improve us?

Yet he's now the "Greatest Manager in the World" (sic) ? according to The Bleacher Report.

At least some of us are still retaining our sanity despite the barrage of nonsense being published to further inflate his standing in the world of football. I shouldn't mind really... if it's all true then he surely cannot remain at Goodison for much longer?

Everton move forward into a new era, and we as fans give the new bloke, whoever he is, plenty of latitude (usually) to prove himself... look how much Moyes got ? and continues to get, from a huge section of the fanbase.

But until that happens, I see no point whatsoever in speculating who that might be.

I tend to agree with you Michael the facts are there for themselves ten years no trophies. Moyes frustrates the hell out of me, he really does. Sometimes I'm thinking he is the one or can be when we play lovely stuff like we have v Fulham, Sunderland, Swansea.

Even the 1st half last night we continued to pass against that horrible Stoke side and looked good, but then all the failings when it really matters makes my opinion easy for me, we need a change this summer, he has had his chance.

If we all said 'let's pick our best 11 from the Premier League' I can guarantee it would look quite different from the team that Prozone stats would have us believe is the best team. Bottom line, you can make stats look how you want them to look. Goals scored, conceded and points won are the ones that matter.

Fair enough Michael. For me, we'd have to have someone lined before he goes but that wont happen under this regime.I'd worry that Steve Bruce etc would be in line for a job then the BOB (Bruce Out Brigade) would start this whole thing over again. I think back to my original post, my point is, surely another year or two with Moyes isnt the wosre thing that can happen. Call me a pessermist but i cant face all that relegation bother again.

Tony, 186 - someone has to go first and if he did so publicly I think it would send out a clear message and he'd certainly have my utmost respect. Its otherwise a little rich for him to say players should take a 20% pay cut when he's the 2nd highest earner at our club!

Also keep in mind he woudl still be on 2.4m a year...... so he doesnt need to worry about his pension!

A manager trying to improve himself for the good of my club... I like that. I would like to see Moyes given the money to have a go before we pack him off, then I would feel fair comparisons could be made. So for me, the same for as many seasons before, the cash flow remains the problem. This responsibility lies with the board.

Pushing the blame around constantly gets us nowhere. The same debate time after time.

The Everton board need to do something to inspire me and the many other Everton fans to put their hands in their pockets and pass that cash over. Whether that be through transfers, services, whatever... the Jelavic trip will only last so long and look what a positive effect that has had.

The board needs to now build off this and show the belief we show week in, week out.

Moyes excels in insisting that midfielders fulfill a defensive roll , this is referred to in the article as something he looks to exploit in opponents. This put me in mind of two examples....Drenthe getting bollocked by two players after diving/sitting on his arse while the oppo charged up the field. The other is Cahill and Osman busting their lungs last night to get back after we lost the ball. Its not sexy stuff but is one of the main reasons why we continue to edge most teams.

Winning trophies would obviously be fantastic, but (repeating many posters on TW) - trophies are pretty the sole preserve of money clubs...thats why they spend their money.... so in the modern game it cant be the only measure of success. I just wish our man would have more confidence in crunch games.

Tony, 186 - someone has to go first and if he did so publicly I think it would send out a clear message and he'd certainly have my utmost respect. Its otherwise a little rich for him to say players should take a 20% pay cut when he's the 2nd highest earner at our club!

Also keep in mind he woudl still be on 2.4m a year...... so he doesnt need to worry about his pension!

Eugene, you assign too much importance - or infer too much information from - one flippant post. You don't need me to explain what is 'positive' about the above, and obviously I understand there are ways to view it negatively.

What made me chuckle - or resort to sarcasm, I admit it - is the immediate MK remarks. For me they sit at odds with his occasional insistence that TW is not negative. But that's just my take on it.

And I read posts because I like it here. I disagree with much of what MK says though, and sometimes I say so.

When are we going to hear the end of the tired old nonesense which can be summarised as - Moyes has never won a trophy therfore Moyes is not a good Manager.In the PL as currently structured, it shouldn't even need anyone to even waste time on explaining why it's a total fallacy lacking in any sensible logic. As James 171 says the only trophys (Cups only) won outside of the old Sky 4 have been the odd freaks like Portsmouth who by the way got relegated the same season and went into administration the next year. Fancy that anyone???

I don't no what a 10 year league table of the rest of the PL would look like but I wouldn't mind betting we're near the top. On our budget, and compared to the near certainty of relegation before Moyes arrived that is successful management.

Howard, as you point out, over a 10 year period we would be near the top of the league so isn't it resonable to think that maybe we should have won one of the 20 domestic cups on offer in that time? ? especially when a couple of the top clubs have knocked each other out in the early stages.

I think it's a weak argument to say how great Moyes is doing at keeping us towards the top of the league but then say we're not good enough to win a cup.

I don't expect trophies but the law of averages would say a manager of Moyes's "great" ability would have delivered one by now.

Why is it since 2000 Jeremy? Moyes started at Everton in 2002. Spurs have won one Carling Cup, yes. ONE cup in all that time and one year of Champions League qualification. How much money have they thrown at it again? Compensation on Jol, Ramos, and Redknapp, buying players like Keane and Defoe back for a second time. Darren Bent barely used, Dos Santos barely used, Bentley, Pavlyuchenko & Pienaar all wasted. They've thrown more money at it than you could ever ask for and all they've won is one Carling Cup.

That just shows how difficult it is, there's no FA Cup winners in that list, no Uefa Cup winners in that list. No manager winning more than one trophy. Even Wenger hasn't won anything in 6 years, he knows how to win trophies and has done it before yet he's come up short as well... Bad manager? No just a very difficult environment to win trophies in.

Dalglish's Carling Cup success has definitely exacerbated the issue. Who knows what will happen on Saturday? If they win, then I'm sure Moyes will take a fresh round of abuse on here for not having won one. If he loses then he'll have one lucky Carling Cup win to his name, and at the top level that's what it can boil down to.

Moyes gets Europe's best in Chelsea in the final, Liverpool get Cardiff. Kenny Miller misses a gaping chance at the end and then even after Liverpool miss two pens, Cardiff miss three without making Reina make a save. What part of that is good management? That was just unprecedented pot luck.

Portsmouth also met Cardiff in the final, if they had met Chelsea that would be them without a trophy as well. Moyes does not have this luck; the one time we made it, we're up against probably Europe's best team without our three best players. If a fully fit Everton squad comes up against Cardiff that day, then Moyes has a trophy to his name.

I don't quite understand the stick that Moyes gets that he hasn't won a trophy in 10 years. Surely, when he came in no-one expected him to a lift a trophy in his first couple of years given the terrible squad he inherited and lack of any financial muscle.

We are therefore looking that he hasn't won anything over a 6-odd year period. How many clubs have done so outside of the Sky 4 who have twice the budgets? I make it Portsmouth and Boro in the FA Cup and Uefa cup, with a couple of wins in the League Cup at best.

We can all say that we should have won the League Cup just to tick the trophy box, but for most of the 10 years we have been happy to be knocked out to concentrate on a Champions League spot. Suddenly now that looks unachievable given City and Spurs have the upped the anti, we suddenly want to roll back time and wish we won the League Cup or something given the gap since 1995 and Liverpool on course for 2 cups (which is some achievement considering they were supposedly title challengers).

I think we have had a better record in the cups with semis in the League Cup, FA Cup and FA Cup Final over the last 5 odd years. The team has lacked game winners, are a bunch of chokers, has been badly managed on the day ? should it be any different? In theory, yes, but don't expect it. We were the same in the 70s and were comparatively minted then.

Michael - I think you can take the prize my friend. We have been chasing the top 4 dream in the belief that would unlock the millions, and no one during that time has cared 2 hoots about the league cup for much of the years. This was the only option with no benefactor. The league cup was a trophy with no cash and would mean nothing in transforming everton.

Are you telling me that we all have a big league cup buzz and capacity gate games over those years? Or just feeling a bit insecure that with hindsight we should have worried more about the 'mickey mouse' cup, particularly given the redshite are in 2 finals this season.

If you think I am an apologist, I would state it was strategy most fans chased in the hope without a rich owner and knackered ground this will change everton for the better. Perhaps you were just not in touch as much as you thought?

I can just imagine the scenario if Moyes were to win the league cup next year. The MOB will be moaning that Moyes will have been in charge 11 years and hasnt delivered the title using Blackburn in 95 and Leeds in 92 as an example

How does Moyes' record against the top teams stand up to everyone elses in the league? Very easy to say 'oh but blackburn won at Old Trafford' , counts for nothing when you're getting relegated does it? I'm sure they'd have rather drawn that game and won at home against City, Chelsea, and Tottenham and picked up 10 points rather than 3 but at least kean doesn't have the awful stigma of never winning away at a big 4 club (sorry, the old big 4, winning at spurs and city doesn't count for Moyes). Yeah i'll buy that we choke in big games in the cup but who outside of that top 6 have a better record in the same period against the big teams as we do? I don't know the answer to this but I doubt many do. Once again luck plays a part in this stat, Pienaar lobs Almunia for a deserved 2-1 at the emirates, Vuaghan gets put through and misses a sitter for 3-1, Arsenal get a last minute deflected strike that beats the goal keeper when really it could have gone anywhere. Is it Moyes' fault that Vaughan missed, or that that deflection goes in instead of over the bar? No. is it Moyes fault that last year at Anfield (an example of us not just surrendering to Liverpool in every derby game) Howard decides to come for a ball he didn't need to and the ref gives a dodgy pen? No. Is it Moyes's fault that Atkinson red carded Rodwell for nothing and Distin (twice) and Baines had a cock up? No. He can be blamed for many things but for some things individual mistakes, the rub of the green, and bad refereeing decisions, have cost us.

Kevin- Hodgson had a great season that season. Then he went to Liverpool and didn't do so good. Moyes has consistently had us higher up the league table than the wages table. Not many other managers have done that...

Again Kevin, other fans don't care about this ridiculous 'away' stat. Fans care about points. How many points, regardless of them being home or away have Everton under Moyes accrued in comparison to other teams outside of the top 6 who have been in the league the same period? Why do people get hung up on this one stat, Moyes could win at Anfield next season and lose every other game home and away to the rest of the top 6. I'd rather, however, he beat most of them at home and drew with a few away and got us more points. Why don't we just swap Moyes for Kean, an away win at Old trafford in his first season, and better yet he knows how to treat class trikers like Yakubu properly and doesn't place any emphasis on defence, sounds like ToffeeWebs ideal manager.

It's not about that statistic James, that is only an example of the manager's mindset. Moyes treats Everton like we are a newly promoted club, he has got plenty of 50 - 70K a week players in his squad - just like those other teams. He has got plenty of Internationals in his squad - just like those other teams. We are one of only 7 teams ever-present in the P.L. era.

It seem the dumbing down of any expectations or ambition is working a treat on most supporters. I am not falling for the " top ten finish is a good result " like some on here.

I must take my hat off to Moyes & Bill - two brilliant con merchants, and you are all falling for their bullshit.

And what does winning at these 4 grounds actually give you? Last time I checked, you still only get 3 points for a win, no matter where it is. If the league rules get changed to points being allocated as a percentage of grounds won at, I'll start worrying about it. Until then, I couldn't give a flying fuck. The teams we have not won against, have spent over a combined BILLION pounds on their teams over 10 years. So if anything, I would expect the gulf to be wider than it is today.

And I love the fact that someone has brought up Fulham's achievements in this argument. Would this be the same Fulham than have not won at Goodison not just in the last ten years, but since the inception of Association Football itself (124 years and counting)?

Agree with James Martin. Cherry Picking stats...such as a few players wages to suggest somehow we are on par with high spending teams is just daft. We are paupers relative to theses teams yet we do well , consistently wel, in the league.

Why is it reasonable to pick just games we havn't done well in as evidence that Moyes is poor?.......and yet actually ignore all the games we win ?.... which is considerably more than most teams. How is this any kind of fair assessment?

Indeed are we saying Blackburn are a top team because they won at Old Trafford?.....cherry picking is as nonsensical as that.

So 50k a week players don't matter, our internationals are no good, our £15m midfielder is mid-table, we even had a £9m winger on the bench for over two years - we cannot even buy a win in ten years at some grounds !

It has all become clear guys - a top ten finish is all we should expect, thanks for explaining why we should not expect to win anything - EVER.

In relation to the no trohies issue, I thiink people seem to forget how shcoking our record actually is. Focusing on the FA Cup (personally am not too bothered by the LC) and ignoring the 2001-2002 season as Moyes only just came in. Moyes has been in charge of Everton for 10 FA cup runs. In that time we have:

- been knocked out in the 3rd round 3 times (to the mighty Shrewsbury Town, Blackburn (1-4 at home!) and Oldham (0-1 at home!))

- been kncked out in the 4th round 3 times (Fulham, Chelsea, Birmingham (at home 0-1))

- been kncked out in the 5th round twice (Man U and Reading (at home!))

Remaining 2 were the Chelsea final and some other game that happened this year.

All in all a pretty poor record. For all the talk of only the top teams win the trophy, we have been knocked out of it by 'lesser' teams quite a few times, and many of them at home.

Kevin we have and will finish the best of the rest. Swap Newcastle for Liverpool and any joe could have picked those league placings.

50k players are ten a penny - Barton, wright Philips, crouch, Darren bent, Zamora do you want me to carry on? I havent said our internationals are no good. They are just in general not as good as elsewhere.

You have picked 10 players I could name you 60 from the top 4 who would get into our team, what's it prove? It proves we are quite a good team that finish out the top but away from trouble. Your billy point and what? He was a Russian dud - most eastern Europeans are a gamble and he didn't come off.

7th-10th and a cup run is acceptable in a passive kind of way. But when we see Mr Dalglish,for all his league failings, winning one cup and getting to the final of another, it isn't. We should be in the final on Saturday.

Yes, Dalglish has spent large amounts of money on players who are no better than ours. But when he goes into a big game with players who are evenly matched, he can get a win. Because he has been winning things since he started with Celtic in the 70s. He understands about winning big games and trophies. I think David Moyes does not. And for me, the crucial part of football is to win a trophy, not to finish 2nd, 3rd, 7th or 10th.

Denis I think you have something on the pressure thing. I think it's the same at the start of every season in previous seasons (not this one I just think the squad was crap) when we have finished well before hand. It links in that we are ate a team of chokers when it matters

The questions are Ian, where should we be aiming for next season ? Should Moyes be expected to win a trophy if he has say, 12 years at the club ? With our first team, will we be watching good, flowing football next season ?

Kevin I fear you are right. Although changing the manager will change little unless we find an absolute genius.

Tight defences win you league points, goals win you trophies. We need pienaar, a striker, and a right midfielder. Given no one will buy us I would cash in on baines, Cahill and Coleman for 30m and start again on those positions a new left back. I hate to say that as I love Leighton at our club.

I don't think Moyes should be expected to win a trophy in the next 2 years. Obviously, it would be great but I don't expect it. I expect teams who have spent far more than we have to win them.

As of whether we play good, flowing football and where we should finish next season, I think that all depends on the actions of the real problem at our club. Whether our board can find enough money to strengthen our team or even keep it as it is.(with Pienaar)

So by James Martin's reasoning if Moyes can't be blamed for individual mistakes, bad luck etc then he can't take the credit for winning (or drawing) with a lucky goal, bad misses or mistakes by the opposition or good goals by our players. If he can take credit for higher league positions then he can also take blame for the failures.

And Ian Bennett - did we really not bother with the League Cup so that we could concentrate on Champions League qualification? If so, then for 10 years this 'stRategy' hasn't really worked. Wasn't Jose Mourinho's first success in England winning the League Cup? That didn't stop him winning the Premier League in the same season. Yes, I know that Chelsea had funds that we couldn't match but every sucessful manager has to start with their first trophy.

"Here's £3 million Dave, go out and buy whoever you want. Oh by the way, pick one of our top players to sell cos we need to sort out the banks. One other thing, I expect to finish in the champions league places or win the FA Cup this season."

Has the accumulation of all these stats over the years explained why we start the season so badly? And if Moyes believes the teams that run and work harder than the other team usually wins the game, how come we lose to the likes of Bolton, QPR & Stoke at home? is it not Moyes's mantra to run and chase and utilise hard working players to get results?

Sorry, it just does not work for me. Give me talented and pacy players any day. We are Everton and as such we should play like Everton!!!!!

I'm no fan of Moyes by a long way; however, a certain Mr Wenger has won zero in 7 years despite spending fortunes on the best young talent around!! I think Moyes deserves serious money to try and challenge; if he fails, fair enough... but until then we just have to accept that Moyes will be around for another few years.

Michael (243) Honestly, some of the crap people will write to blame Moyes's for the virtual impossibility of Everton winning a major trophy, given funding available, is simply astounding. Oh and putting !?!?! or similar after statements doesn't add any credence to the arrant nonesense whatsoever.

Jamie we all know we're in the shit with the banks but can you tell me how many players we've had to sell to please the banks?

Lescott and Arteta left because they no longer wanted to be here.I'm aware the banks took most of the Arteta money but no one has been sold yet with the sole purpose of repaying the bank.(only a matter of time though)

What happened to the money from the Beckford, Yakubu, Bily, Vaughn and Pienaar transfers? The money we got for the Yobo and Yakubu loans? The money we saved by loaning out different players 13 times in the last 2 years?

It doesn't matter whether they are top players. That's not my point.You seem to think we should expect to win a cup in the next 2 years while Moyes is working on a very tight budget and having to sell to buy.

Do you honestly think that were Moyes given £20 million to keep Pienaar, buy a full back, a right winger and, or another striker, without having to sell first, we wouldn't play better football and have a better chance of winning something?

Surely £20m is worth a punt from somebody with a bit of money. I don't think we're that far off being a pretty good team.

I dont expect trophies,I think considering we've been near the top for most of the last 10 years its not unreasonable to wonder why we havent.

My main problem with Moyes (before the last 2 derbies) was his negative attitude,if he believes playing that way is the best way to beat the top teams then fine,whatever way we play against them chances are we wont win but there no excuse for it at home against shite teams.

Even without spending money and before the new signings arrived we still had far better players than QPR,Villa,Stoke,Norwich and Bolton yet we failed to beat any of them at home and produced shite football.

Just trawled through the responses and some right whoppers in there but to respond to just a few

Charlie your Beeb stat qualified for Champions League - erm we didn't we got a Champions League qualifier game which we lost

A new manager will NOT guarantee anything besides a change - no nailed on relegation and no nailed on winning the league or a cup its just nonsense to spout the same tired old scaremongering twaddle about Moyes being the only person in the universe who could keep us in the league.

What statistic exactly does Moyes rely on which means we are shite up to just after christmas more often than not then suddebly start playing?

Repeating the same mistakes ad nauseum isn't a sign of genius its a fatal flaw.

Richard over the course of a season luck evens itself out so that you end up where you deserve to end up. If we do well or badly in the league that is the responsibility of Moyes. I'm not trying to excuse Moyes's cup record, its bad no one is denying that. I'm saying that the 'he hasn't won a trophy or won away at the top 4' argument doesn't necessarily make him a bad manager as both of these stats could have been avoided by a bit of good luck. If he'd beaten Arsenal away or had Cardiff in the final and won then the arguments would be 'his away record against the top 4 is poor' (Like every other maanger's in the league) and 'his trophy record is poor' (like every other manager outside the top 4 in the league). Just because luck didn't go his way and these stats exist doesn't mean that they can be used as definitive proof that Moyes is a ridiculous incompetent premeir league manager not suited for Everton just because he doesn't have an away win at certain grounds or hasn't won a trophy.

Eugene, surely you have noticed that since buying gibson and jelavic and pienaar that we have been more attacking and have been keeping it on the deck more.

Moyes can only play with the resources available and for the last few years till Januray those resources have been pretty stale.

Not absolving Moyes of blame or excusing his over defensiveness but just saying its no coincidence that we have played better since he has actually been allowed to spend some money for the first time in 2 years.

Sam #353.We havent bought Pienaar.And to continue Eugenes 'what if' theme just for a second longer..

What if Rangers were not in total shit street and did not have to get the £6m in for Jelavic asap or they couldnt finish the season ?Saha would be the only recognised striker, probablly be injured again by now, no-one up front and pressure would have been on Moyes and Kenwright weeks ago...

What difference does it make what the reasons these players had for leaving,the fact is neither wanted to be Everton players no more and were not sold by the banks.There is no doubt this will happen sooner or later but it has not happened yet.

Sam 349 & 353

No one is saying we're not a better team now than we were at the start of the season but you seem to think that just because we didnt buy anyone in the summer that automatically makes us one of the worst teams in the league.

Before the new signings we were still better than most in the league and should rightly be expected to beat QPR,Stoke,Bolton at home by playing attacking football.

lol Kevin, you talk some shit. Are you aware of our relative wage situation? and more importantly..please also name the 'plenty' of players on 50-70k a week? plenty must be alot...at least 10 from the sounds of things...who are they?

Get something straight; many of us do not have high expectations, because we are a midtable team if that. Why are we a mid table team? Because of the money we spend (lower prem/high champ budget) and the wages we spend (will be around 12th in this league in the wage table). Our history isn't of a mid-table team, although a table run on history would look alot different. So please give me a reason Kevin, apart from your innane comment about wages, why we should be doing so much better than seventh?

And please would some of you stop working under the misconception that, if we got the start of the season right, we would qualify for the champions league. Every team suffers from form, whether it be at the start of the season or the end. Take Spurs' first half of the season form, and theyd be 2/3rd. Take Arsenal's second half of the season, and they'd be fighting for the title. Take Liverpool's second half of the season form, and they'd be fighting against relegation. The only way to improve our start of the season form, is to get through without a transfer story, and spend spend spend. Funny that our second half of the season form followed the morale boasting acquisition of 4 top quality players...couldn't be a link there could there be...?

Thats a fair point,I dont know where you looked up that stat but i'm sure if you look at other games at Goodison this season you will see games were we've failed to have a single shot on target.

If were not in a position to challenge for honours for what ever reason I think the least Moyes should try to do is entertain us,on the whole I dont think there is many people who would say he's done that these last few years.

Look at the Fulham game, you had Hibbert and Neville doing flicks and backheels becuae we pissed all over them.

Usually we are too scared to make a mistake and therefore have a nervy feel about us which is certainly not condusive to exansive free flowing footy.

I probably haven't been thoroughly entertained at a football match since we beat Newcastle 2-0 to reach the Champions League Qualifiers (The 3-0 Derby aside...oh and the 6th round beating of the Shite...oh and the 7-1 Sunderland game etc)

Eugene, you have a short memory. We have played some decent football at times under Moyes, even being branded as Arsenal lite. The fact is that over the last few years Moyes has often had to sell key creative players Rooney, Gravesen, Arteta, Pienaar and often not been given those funds to re-invest.

As for Swansea, yeah they play nice football but they are five places below us and have scored less goals than us this season. I think Brendan Rogers might become a world class manager but his achievments so far are impressive but not miraculous.

I agree with you to a certain point.Confidence through winning brings about better football but theres no reason not to try and play even if things are not going well,and I believe being too scared to play in case a mistake is made comes from Moyes.

For every entertaining game you bring up there will be about half a dozen were we played boring defensive football.

Sam, the first half at Stoke was a decent example of what we do well - pressing when not in posession and good neat passing to get the ball into the last quarter. The problem was we couldnt get our attacking players into the box with the ball. Something Barca also failed to do against a weakened Chelseas team...so the very best sometimes fail at this.

Your point is valid. We need the right players to be able to play this game, and those bought in January enabled us to do this....but our limited squad means if a couple of players are missing we then struggle to reproduce the passing game....and hence the shitty first half of the season.

Tony J, have you not realised, Paul only sees stuff with his bad eye and remembers only pain not pleasure.

Hence, we have no flair players, only go out to defend and never entertain...

Facts are not needed, they are surplus to requirements, memory is selective, Paul already 'knows' we're a dour, defensive and not entertaining team - all evidence to the contrary is irrelevant, it does not compute, it is outside of his mindset.

If you want a picture of Paul's mindset, imagine Marvin the manic depressive robot from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, crossed with the unlucky triplet of Jordan who ends up sucking the bottle

Now, people like you and I can appreciate when we've been poor, when we've been defensive and when we've been ordinary - and we'll say so and we'll criticise and we'll formulate theories wondering why this is happening; as will Paul However, people like our friend Paul can never see it when it occasionally gets good, it is beyond their realm of comprehension, outside of the parameters of their mindset.

They are more to be pitied than argued with - whatever you say they'll twist anyway to fit their field of vision blurred by tears.

Kevin you are right.A few months a go I was just bored of how Moyes approached games but put up with it because you cant really argue with the teams final league positions even if I didnt like his methods.

That was untill he sacrificed the Anfield derby against the wishes of the majority (I imagine) of fans,in my eyes he spat in the faces of every Evertionian that day.Then to follow it up with a gutless performance against a Liverpool team that was there for the taking in the semi means there is no way back for Moyes with me.

So I make no excuses for looking to get on his back at every opportunity and all the good work he has done in the past means fuck all to me now.I will continue to be over bias over every opinion I have of Moyes untill he is out of our club.

Don,t lecture me on what my expectations I should have for the club. It is wankers like you who will be telling me that reaching 40 points is a miracle. YOU have fell for the con that being in the League is a great achievement.

When I am freezing my nuts off next season ( do you go by the way ? ) watching boring, insipid shite, I have no problem expecting to see decent football, served up by a tactically astute manager, who earns £3m a season.

As far as 50k a week players are concerned, I don't have access to their contracts, but what do you think Baines, Neville, Fellaini, Heitinga, Jelavic, Pienaar, Distin etc earn ?

No expectations = mid-table or worse. The board & manager love fools like you supporting them, they can get away with anything.

"The board & manager love fools like you supporting them, they can get away with anything." - And what the fuck are you doing then? Apart from bitching and moaning on a footbal forum, how you are making it possible for us to finish further up the league...answer fuck all.

One of my worst hates on here is a poster trying to suggest that another refusal to slag someone/something off is in someway making the problem worse.

Apart from our money when we buy tickets, which goes towards the club, we have absolutely no influence on how games play out and if we buy new players or sell ones we would rather not.

Listening to some posters, we may as well throw in the towel now, before next season's fixtures are even published.

I would hate to be on the same team as some on here ? give up before a ball is kicked. "We've got no chance here, they have spent £35m on Andy Carroll."

Well fuck that, money does not mean you can't go on to the pitch and give them a pasting! All the professional athletes & International players in our side choke exactly because they believe what you have just posted, Sam.

Beaten before they leave the dressing room. A great manager can make them believe they can win. Not "nick a draw".

Kevin, can't you read? Why I am lecturing you on the expectations YOU should have?

My comment: Get something straight; many of us do not have high expectations, because we are a midtable team, if that.

I fail to understand, not your expectations (the common football fan expects more than is likely, for realism in itself would breed boredom and pessimism for most clubs), but that you can't realise why some of us have lower expectations? That you, with your bullshit theories, think we are massively underachieving? Please tell me, Kevin, based on fact instead of creation, why we should do so much better?

My expectations are based on wages and money spent; that which determines football. If we finished 10th, I would not be happy, or entirely miserable. For seventh and a semi, I think we have done very well. I wish we would have beaten Liverpool, I wish we could improve our mindset against them, but I do not lack a sense of perspective based on our means.

Re. wages... more bullshit. Your 'plenty' comment, has now turned into 7 players, one of whom is on loan, and whose loan wages we have no knowledge of, so 6 players, whose wages are based on supposition.

For info purposes, I believe/know Cahill, Heitinga and Fellaini are on the £50k-70k wages you claim 'plenty' are on. Jelavic will not be (he was on £15k a week at Rangers). Whilst defenders are on typically much less, £50k for Baines would not suprise me, but I do not think Neville or Distin are on that. Given the above, I do not see how that justifies that we should be doing a lot better? Our squad is small, our complete wages will be around the 12th highest in this division for the season.

You are the type of 'fool' (to use your word) who needs some reality. The type of fan who would have been moaning at Harry once Spurs started playing badly, or at Wenger when Arsenal did.

We are a team with no money, a little wage capacity. We are constantly outspent by those we count as our rivals. With little money, Moyes has taken a relegation squad (and it was 10 years ago, and when we fell 1-0 down at Crystal Palace, after our defeat against Arsenal, I thought we were going down) and turned us into a very good team. If he had more money, I would advocate a change. But it is not Moyes that it is to blame; it is a board which will not even allow us enough money to compete with the Stokes of the league, let alone the Spurs or Liverpools.

I do go to the games thanks, and it costs me a lot in time and travel. I get frustrated by our poor form, and take pleasure from our good, like the rest of us. But over the course of the season, I believe we have done well, and am still proud to support this club. I am not proud of fans, who call others 'wankers' or 'fools' for having a different perception, who base arguments on imaginary statistics and whose arguments lack any foundation.

One last thing, re.

Maybe he will beat one of the big four away before he reaches fifty attempts.

Haven't we beaten City and Spurs away? Or do they not count as a top four team because they don't suit the argument?

No Kevin I am considerably older than 12 but I don't think that you or I bitching on a football forum amounts to anything other than bitching on a football forum....apparantly you do.

You seem to believe that, because some posters won't slag someone/something off, that they are part of the problem... and you bitching and moaning is somehow the solution as to how we should be a better team than what we are. It doesn't.

Having read most of the posts, cannot believe the amount of rubbish that is written.

Moyes is an excellent Premier League manager over a season (where luck will generally even out over 38 games) and our position of top 10 for the majority of seasons shows this.

Additionally, every pundit whether on TV, radio or the written press, plus other managers in the Premier League whenever interviewed all express the opinion that he is a top manager and highly respected.

Do the posters on here who think he's incompetent disagree with the majority of experts or are they so paranoid to believe that Moyes/BK have influenced the opinions of all in the media??? BK certainly couldn't have bribed them with cash to say such things!!

The problem that Moyes appears to have is that he struggles to manage when expectations are high. Hence the poor start to each season and our poor cup record.

The recent semi was nothing short of a catastrophe for our club and we all know that was our chance to beat Liverpool in a major game, especially at 1-0 up when we should have gone for the 2nd goal. IMO that result was the fault of the manager as we didn't press home our advantage. In a one-off game such as a semi, money spent by teams/wages etc means nothing as it's what happens on the day.

However, for a club in our current situation (no investment etc etc yawn yawn), Moyes is an ideal manager.

It is the ownership that needs sorting ? not the management of the team. Unless the man is given the backing, support and resource then it's hard to judge how successful he could be in terms of trophies.

If we finish 17th next season, yet win the Carling Cup, is he then a successful manager???

'Well fuck that, money does not mean you can't go on to the pitch and give them a pasting - all the professional athletes & International players in our side choke exactly because they believe what you have just posted Sam.'

The evidence points to exactly the opposite Kevin. If you spends wads of cash you will win things... you do that by pasting/beating the oppo. Show me a good example in the Premier League where a club which doesn't have big money, say over the past five years, has regularly beaten the opposition. It just doesn't happen.

That doesn't mean we settle for shite like the SF, and in individual games Moyes needs to look at himself. But surely we need some perspective. We're not in the big league but we aspire to it and Moyes has been as close as anyone to getting a team without spending power close to the teams with.

Money usually does talk in football. I think what Kevin T is trying to say is that there is no reason a less expensive team can't believe that they can win on the day and that Moyes doesn't seem to give the players that confidence.

I 'GUESSED' how much they were on, because you asked me to. How stupid are you? Seriously? Do you remember doing so? My whole argument is predicated on what we have access to, overall wages and money spent. I never based my argument on what each were on individually; you did, and then asked me to venture a guess, which you then attack me for doing so... you are beyond stupid. (I've increased the personal attacks, as you seem to like them, but don't get me wrong, it is not pure imitation, I do believe you a fool.)

Now please... again... tell me why you think we should be doing so much better? Try developing an argument, not reliant on supposition, idealism, but with a basis in reality.

Mine is this; we regularly finish above where we should based on wages spent. Our transfer budget is of a newly promoted side or a top Championship club. Because of that, I believe our performance under Moyes to be a success.

Yours thus far has amounted to guessing about how much the players earn, disregarding spending and the entire wage bIll... and I can't really find anything else in there. Do you not see the amount of people attacking you? Do you think we are all wrong? Some of us on here have reasoned arguments. I've seen many good anti-Moyes arguments, and many bad pro-Moyes, and vice-versa. Your argument is among the worst I've come across.

To make my position a little clearer, I have not said Moyes is a shit / bad manger, he is however a bottler. He is a percentage manager who will not take the club to the next level, even if we get into Europe. The football is mostly defensive and "nick one".

Going on results to resources, he achieves there, no doubt.

It's how we get there though, it's painful. With our squad full of internationals on very good wages, why can't we expect a little more?

I won't even go into his big-game mentality. Some refuse to see the whole picture, and just point to seventh place ? I have trouble forgetting two games on the bounce without a shot on target.

So Kevin, it's an argument about style after all....so many posts later, and finally it comes out. I agree actually, we do not play with a nice style for most of the season. I think we improved in that respect recently because of the addition of talented footballers (who we're not able to afford generally because of higher wages/fees). But, as you can see, I am for substance over style, when money is missing; when teams have it, I like to see them entertain. Re "a squad full of internationals," there is not a team in this league which does not have a squad full of internationals.

Re "two games without a shot on target" that was based on some data, not others. Fellaini had a shot on target which was discounted for who knows what reason by Sky. We were poor during that part of the season, without doubt, but every team in this league goes through bad patches. Proof is in the final position, not isolated games.

I think most on here have said that Moyes is a good manager and a very decent bloke.

It has also been pointed out that he's had 10 years at the club, much longer than just about every manager in the league, and the end result is mid table mediocrity and zero silverware.

Moyes tactics in the semi-final were not a one-off. His negative, unimaginative, defensive, one-up-front, "let's hope for a draw no matter who we were playing, home or away" style has been evident throughout the season.

I personally don't believe that will change, regardless of funds.

If you look around the club, the whole ambiance is shoddy and amateurish, particularly the Promotions/PR and merchandising side of the business.

The Manager should be inspirational and lead the growth and development of the club.

For me, Moyes has had a very fair chance, done well, but it is time for a change.

I used to think that stability is necessary to build and progress but am now having second thoughts. Look at the managers Chelsea and Newcastle have had over the past few years.

Clearly their owners set out goals and timescales to achieve them. If the manager fails they are out and in comes another, until they succeed.

Maybe that change will prove to be the catalyst for Everton!

I know finances will ultimately dictate top 4 status but I am sure there is a more positive, imaginative, inspirational manager out there who can at least deliver the same as Moyes with our current resources, and in a more entertaining style.

While I can see why you say substance over style, results are the most important thing but when the substance only gets you 7th and no European football, I'd rather be entertained and risk dropping a few places. My personal view is that playing football would give us a greater chance of doing better.

"YOU & Williams shout people down who want BETTER for the club, fine." ? No, I point out when peoople make fucking ridiculous statements, usually along the lines of "It's your fault the club is doing so shit" etc.

Moyes has done very well in stabilising a ship that was rudderless and listing and imo has done so on a limited budget. I know he hasn't won away at the big four during his tenure but you can't judge him on them results alone. For me personally, he has done well and I would like to judge him after he has been given proper money to spend (in the summer, not January).

As for long-standing away results, didn't it take us 50-odd years to break the Elland Road hoodoo? Moyes broke that one and I'm pretty sure he will win away at the big 4. All those people who would like to see Coyle or Martinez, just look at where their teams are lying in the league. As for Swansea and Norwich, they've done ok, but both below us and, for what it's worth, I think they will both struggle next season. (Please be kind, first post!)

I agree, more money does equate to a higher standing in the league in the long haul.

I also believe that a top 4 slot and Champions league qualification is beyond Everton given our current financial situation.

However, I don't accept that our financial situation over say the last 10 years has been such that we couldn't have won something, compete consistently playing positive, joined up football, and won some of these key one off big games.

That failure is down to the particular style of our manager. He is actually paid top 4 wages but has delivered only stability, and mid table safety !

For some that is clearly enough. Not for me though, and not for many other posters on TW! AND RIGHTLY SO.

We should expect more and if we had a ambitious ownership with a positive vision and can do attitude we might just have achieved a little more..

I would say that on balance moyes has delivered league placings above the wage/transfer resources of the team but the cost of that has been a reliance on cautious football and no trophies. As we all know there aren't that many teams outside the big spenders who have won trophies but even so we might have expected over 10 years to be in more than one final.

What i will not condone is the people who refuse to admit the good work that Moyes has done along with some of his obvious shortcomings. Many teams with similar resources to Moyes' Everton have been relegated in his ten year span and it is in inarguable fact that if he were to leave tomorrow we would be in much better shape than we were when he arrived (and no thanks to the chairman and board).

Welcome to TW. Indeed he may not be rattling with all the silverware but Moyes has done better than any manager in getting a team to challenge the money elite. This seems to have been missed by some.

Steve, we do challenge the top 6...consistently. Certainly more consistently than any other team. I say top six as Spurs and City are now in the big bucks.

The failure you refer to in general terms is as a direct result of being under funded. Sure there are individual games where Moyes could do things differently, but the trophy winners list is full of the same names for one particular reason.

Steve Barr, yiou will be taken seriously, when you talk seriously. Where in the world have you got top 4 wages from?? Or are you making things up to suit your agenda? Only delivered mid table safety during his reign? Have a look at Moyes record again. His average finishing is around 6th over the last 5 years.

I can understand people having a moan about percentage football, as its definitely not easy on the eye. But making things up? Come on...

Why does everyone moan about Moyes' wage? No one has a problem paying Drenthe's wages yet for some reason Moyes is underserving of his. 10 years at a club (who knows what offers he has or hasn't turned down in that time) and people expect him to be on a lower wage than some of his lesser contemporaries. If you pay peanuts then you get a monkey. if we want to establish ourselves as a top club then we can't be paying the manager what relegation managers are getting. He's a manager who's qualified for Europe and consistently finished in the top 6. Therefore he deserves a top 6 type wage which he has.

Way too many people on here playing the premier league on paper. Why do you bother going to the games... you already know who SHOULD win.

I'm sure Manure fans EXPECTED to beat Everton and win the title. Its football, the story isn't already written. There are so many uncontrollable variables in a game of football, how can one man be expected to right every instance stood on the side of the pitch? Our position is good, we have a great respect in the game (outside the majority of the shite loving media) and only investment AND forward thinking will move us on. So looking at as much information as possible will only aid that.

Moyes for me has shown constant improvement, so too have our players. Hibbo had 2 assists against Manure, I liked that alot!... still no riot yet though. I read tonight on another site that Modric only has 4 assists this season, so half the player, plus english bonus makes hibbo worth about 27mil?...Sats are great! Its how you read them that counts.

As I said above, its Moyes until he's had a fair crack at the whip in terms of cash. He's earnt it in all honesty. I still ponder whether Moyes has actually built himself a little warchest that he keeps under wraps.

As shrewd as he is, would he really spend all the cash he's given or recovered?... I'm not so sure. It wasn't too long back that all we heard was we need 15mil plus for a striker, we got one for 6 at a time when theoretically for a club in our position, we should have nothing. Did that come out of the piggy bank Mr Moyes?

If you factor this against the money spent, and players salaries paid by the clubs, I think it shows why Moyes is 6th highest paid. But to be honest, I am not sure where this expectation that we should win trophies comes from. When I look at the league table we are 9 points behind Chelsea, and we all know how much they have spent, and the players salaries they can afford. Give Moyes the same money as the big teams above us, and I am certain he would deliver silverware. His work in the transfer market is nothing short of incredible. But expecting silverware on a 3 million average yearly spend seems unrealistic in my opinion.

Charlie and Steve King, I shared the same feeling as you do. I am grateful to have Moyes as manager. Those dark days were nightmares and now is way behind us. And I truly believe we are getting closer to getting a silverware soon.