Since you are so big on "clear evidence", could you please show us the clear evidence of any Saints player doing what Gregg Williams asked them to do in that game? Because what I remember from that game, is the Whiners putting the hurt on the Saints, not the other way around. Maybe the Whiners pay better bounties... they have a history of handing out envelopes with cash in them..

Heck, one could argue, the 2010 and 2011 defenses were so bad, it probably was because the Saints refused to do what Williams asked them to do: How come they didn't take out Marshawn Lynch? How come Smith, and Davis, and Crabtree were there with 1 and a half minutes to go in the game, and looked very healthy slicing and dicing the Saints defense?

And please, stop it with this "The Saints are the only ones doing it because we have no evidence to the contrary". Either you are trying to provoke people, or you really don't know the game you watch. Oh, and I am pretty sure NFL Films has some good material as far as locker room speeches go (or maybe had, and have been busy destroying it to prevent it from being used against them in current and upcoming lawsuits... the NFL has a history of conveniently destroying evidence too)

A couple fair points, I am new so haven't read what everyone has posted, maybe some did step up to the plate. Since I got here though and reading it lately it's mostly crying about other teams doing the same thing, it being no big deal, and that Goodall is a jerk. Have seen nobody step up and say I'M DISGUSTED WITH THE SAINTS AND WHAT THEY HAVE DONE!!!

Also, since more information is coming out then opinions will change. Just because you said something in January doesn't mean that opinion will be the same. As information is obtained then opinions can/will change as well. So what I posted here is new, this just happened. Not the whole issue but all these details about going for ACL's and trying to injure specific players was something I wasn't aware of.

In the end I have to say both SP and GW should not ever coach again. You get young kids right out of college and these are the coaches that are trying to shape their career? They're really trying to make the NFL more about hurting guys then trying to win legally? That's my beef, I'm afraid this crap will catch on, as a fan I would be clear to anyone that listens I'm not okay with it.

The only one crying on this board is you. To have your opinions adopted by us, and thats not going to happen, because your not listening to our fans opinions, or giving us the time of day of what we think. Try to be more objective next time, and treat us like we would treat you on your board as a curtsy , and you will get a lot of respect here.
This is a great board with good moderators, so you will be given many chances.

Hey guys, thanks for the posts. After reading the comments it does sound like most of you were not happy with what went down, props for that. My bad for assuming without having all the facts.

I read several places though where opposing fans (of course we know they'd never lie ) summed up what the Saint fans were saying as none of them were taking responsibility, all of them were blaming any and everyone else, and that you were making your team out to be the victim in all this.

That coupled with me for the first time hearing that link I posted in the original post started to make me wonder. Started to make me angry at GW. I've always read this board, posted under Patrick McIrish but lost my password years ago, probably been here since it started.

I say that to make the point I do consider myself a Saints fan. Not my primary team, but certainly 2nd favorite. When you won the ring I was happy as hell, you guys repped the NFC South in a fine manner. The area as well.

I have a 2nd residence in Harrison county, Biloxi. Obviously I know and hang out with lot of Saint fans. Won't ever root for you when you play the Bucs, I can't do that, the rest of the time I do though.

In short, I was pissed off as how you guys were being labeled, I wanted to hear what you guys had to say for myself. And after getting here I have to say what other fans have said don't seem to be true.

Yes, A few are still acting the "victim", most seem to have a more mature look at what went on though. Props to you all for that. And while I still don't agree with all the points made here some do indeed hold merit. Carry on.

Pat, I'll step up and say that when this broke, I was horrified and hated Gregg Williams even more. I agree that he should never coach again because he's too dangerous of a coach and he's not even a very good one after teams figure his defense out. If the players actually did try to injure other players, then I'm ashamed of that too.

HOWEVER. I stand behind my team in rain or shine. I do not support the bounty system. I support the New Orleans Saints. Because I was here for seasons when we lost games in double digits. I was here when we made it to the playoffs only to fall short in the first game. I was here when we finally won that game, and got thrashed in the next one. I was here for a 3-13 season when the Saints were homeless, playing home games in Tiger Stadium and San Antonio. I was here when the Saints returned home to a loving crowd to reopen the Louisiana Superdome. I was here when we made it to the NFC Championship Game, and once again fell short. I was here when we went 13-0. I was here as we all chewed our fingernails watching the 2009 NFC Championship Game. And I was here as we all celebrating being crowned World Champions. I was born a Saints fan, and I'll die a Saints fan. Who Dat Forever.

Excellent post, one of the best I've read.

And trust me as a fan of the Bucs (0-26) if there's anyone who can relate to "taking the journey" as a loyal fan it is your NFC South counterparts. Long road for us, went from the worst of all time to not just winning, but dominating in the SuperBowl, will always be proud of that team just as you guys should be of yours. In short, I can relate to what you posted, well said.

And please, stop it with this "The Saints are the only ones doing it because we have no evidence to the contrary". Either you are trying to provoke people, or you really don't know the game you watch.

Always a few that miss the point. Unless making solid points is trying to provoke you, once again you miss the mark. It has nothing to do with what you *think* other teams are doing!? It doesn't matter how long you want to beat on the podium and claim you guys are the victims here, it's simply not true. Be a man, admit your organization made some horrendous mistakes and move on. This attempt at minimizing what you've done makes you look bad.

Even if other teams have/had bounty systems in place (which I seriously doubt) it doesn't change anything to do with you guys. I kill my neighbor, a defense of "well two other guys in the neighborhood are murderers as well" just does not cut the mustard! Quit using the "everyone else is doing it" excuse, it plays very badly to intelligent ears. You're the kind of poster that the other fans are talking about, a fan that wants to blame any and everyone else other than the guilty parties!

As for SP, I'm sorry as I know this is a big one we will disagree on but he's just as guilty as GW was in my book. For one thing nobody will ever tell me he didn't know about it. That's not possible. I've played the game, guys talk, guys get excited, guys are going to be fired up about this bounty thing. Players, coaches and everyone else involved aren't going to be under a long-term conspiracy to keep it a secret from the head coach. That's just silly talk.

But even if in the one in a million shot Sean was so blind about what was going on with this team he had no idea, it wouldn't matter. My college gets hit with recruiting violations then the head coach takes it up the rectum as well. That's how it works. Sean hired this guy, he's ultimately responsible for what goes on under his watch. To accept the good things, rings and so on from your DC, but immediately disqualify yourself when things go wrong is ridiculous.

I thin k the NFL is not being unfair. Our punishment is a little harsh on sP and Loomis but besides that we deserve everything we get. They should be punished. If this happened to the Falcons we would be crying for a lifetime ban. Williams went above and beyond just coaching up our team. There is no room for what he did in the league. I hope they do find he was a rogue coach, but I doubt that was the case. Yes other teams do it, but we got caught.

I don't know if anyone caught this, but there was a blurb I just read on nfl.com that indicated that Giants' players had discussions about "taking out" Kyle Williams prior to the NFC Championship Game. There were conversations about his history of concussions and how if they hit him real hard they could either get him carted off or at least rattle him.

Is this not the EXACT same thing he-who-must-not-be-named discussed with his defensive players prior to the Saints' divisional matchup with the San Francisco 49ers?

"The thing is, we knew (Kyle Williams) had four concussions," Jacquian Williams told NYMag.com after the game. "So that was our biggest thing -- was to take him out of the game."

Call me crazy, but aren't the Saints just being singled out for sh*t that the entire league seems to endorse behind closed doors? I mean, I realize that the Gregg Williams audio is horrible and all, but my thinking is that the Saints are just the ones who got caught.

(cross-posted at canalstreetchronicles)

They have not proven any money changed hands and they didn't lie about it.

Props for being objective. It can be tough when it's your team but try and keep in mind what you would think if it was an opponent. Or if something had happened. I said before but if Brees was taken out after someone like GW did his thing I would be sickened by it! Football is a man's game, you do hit hard, you don't wear skirts, but you don't go out with the mindset you want to injure other players. That was wrong, everyone involved should be punished regardless of who else may or may not be doing the same thing.