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Some definitely are, though I'll not argue that the idea is somewhat silly. But while we're mocking the Witcher's cards - let's not forget Mass Effect gives you achievements for completing these 'subplots' (their word) as well, adding to the gamey-ness of it all. The reason for that, I guess, is that you can then proudly display them on your Origin/Xbox Live profile. Congratulations! Next up: Obtain 10 technology upgrades!

Last edited by Tritagonist; 15-01-2013 at 04:40 PM.

"He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to
the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free". ~ Luke 4:18

Still better than Mass Effect.
I wonder if there's a way of making videogame romance that's not essentially a hentai date-sim, because that's what that generally comes down to. Well, I guess that's somewhat realistic since that's attraction in at a base level.. shit. Now I'm confused. Someone smarter than me, please solve this.

I guess make it less systematic and more random so you don't 'game' the relationships? I haven't read the rest of the thread yet so apologies if this has been done.

If character's reacted to you being an arrogant ass by being attracted to you, or being a namby pamby paragon put them off etc. in a less transparent way maybe it would work. Deploying a clever joke at the right time might roll a chance of a positive reaction in the background of the system. It's difficult to properly emulate chemistry between characters I suppose.

I didn't really like Dragon Age's system of insert gifts for approval, or Witcher 1's sex cards too much. I think Gaider's comments on having more complex relationships with people falling out, getting cheated on etc. would be more realistic but not necessarily liked is important. It would have been EPIC in ME3 if there was a chance that whatever character you were buttering up for ages gets caught in bed with one of the others.

I guess make it less systematic and more random so you don't 'game' the relationships? I haven't read the rest of the thread yet so apologies if this has been done.

If character's reacted to you being an arrogant ass by being attracted to you, or being a namby pamby paragon put them off etc. in a less transparent way maybe it would work. Deploying a clever joke at the right time might roll a chance of a positive reaction in the background of the system. It's difficult to properly emulate chemistry between characters I suppose.

I didn't really like Dragon Age's system of insert gifts for approval, or Witcher 1's sex cards too much. I think Gaider's comments on having more complex relationships with people falling out, getting cheated on etc. would be more realistic but not necessarily liked is important. It would have been EPIC in ME3 if there was a chance that whatever character you were buttering up for ages gets caught in bed with one of the others.

That kinda happens I think?

*Spoiler*In my series anyway I went Liara -> Tali -> Liara. In ME3 there was a part on the ship towards the end where I went looking for my crew and you end up walking in on Tali and Garrus "calibrating"
*Spoiler*

However, I find the charge that romance is too "gamey" kinda funny, considering nobody complains about combat being too "gamey," and in combat you're killing people.

It's probably because most gamers never experienced actual combat. Their familiarity with warfare stems entirely from games and films, which tend give a warped impression. As a result they have trouble discerning the truth from the fiction. Whereas with romance ...

It's probably because most gamers never experienced actual combat. Their familiarity with warfare stems entirely from games and films, which tend give a warped impression. As a result they have trouble discerning the truth from the fiction. Whereas with romance ...

Actually, nevermind.

You walked right into that one. :D

NalanoH. Wildmoon
Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
Attorney at Lawl
"His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

There are games where being the nice guy backfires on you. There are even instances in Bioware games where "say three nice things then bed her" backfires on you as well. Jack comes to mind.

However, I find the charge that romance is too "gamey" kinda funny, considering nobody complains about combat being too "gamey," and in combat you're killing people.

I didn't know that about the spoiler you mentioned, haha. That's a nice touch. I'm not pointing at Bioware as the only developer in this case. I think that most games suffer from the trappings of power fantasies where relationships only go anywhere if you push them and everyone is just waiting around for your advances. Again though, that's hardly the only problem with these Chosen One/Space Bad Ass themes.

With regards to everything being abstractly gamey (because it is a game!), I understand where you're coming from. However, I feel that combat in a game can be more abstract for people because you don't often have a direct frame of reference in real life.

For sure the realities of actual combat aren't represented very often. You won't shoot a random 18 year old Nazi soldier in a video game and then listen to him weep for his mother as he slowly bleeds out (and let's not get started on regenerating health). However, I think most people have a direct frame of reference for personal relationships and communication so that will feel less authentic quicker than how we disassociate ourselves from what the actual consequences of the violence we portray would be like. (Does that rant make any sense to you?)

Edit: other people got on to this quicker and more succintly than my reply did. Damn work getting in the way of my RPS discussions.

While combat is indeed "gamey" compared to real life - as far as I can guess since I have never been conducted on any front - it's much closer to its real-life counterpart than video game romances. Observation suggests that if you shoot a bullet into a person, they usually end up dead or at least injured, both in the game and real-life, whereas romancing usually takes a lot more effort than approaching somebody three times and say, "Hey, you are cute, let's bang, ok?". I mean, there are exceptions to that rule of course...

- If the sound of Samuel Barber's "Adagio For Strings" makes you think of Kharak burning instead of the Vietnamese jungle, most of your youth happened during the 90s. -

Observation suggests that if you shoot a bullet into a person, they usually end up dead or at least injured, both in the game and real-life

Also observed in games:

They do not lose dexterity, tenacity or cognitive capacity despite being shot thirty times until that last bullet grazes their pinky toe, at which point they die instantly. They have no sense of self-preservation, and indeed throw themselves into your line of fire without concern for the inevitable consequences. Over the course of two hours, you kill an order of magnitude more men than even the most hardy of combat veterans did over the course of their entire careers.

NalanoH. Wildmoon
Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
Attorney at Lawl
"His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

I think one problem is that RPGs tend to have you play manipulative dicks anyway. You are used to saying exactly what you need to to get your way.

In the context of getting a quest reward or stopping (or starting) a war, that is not as bad. In the context of getting in someone's pants, it is pretty messed up.

That being said, I would love to see a game where you are the evil mastermind who does nothing but manipulate the crap out of everyone in a truly heinous manner. That might even be the next "ground-breaking" deconstruction for gaming.

Steam: Gundato
PSN: Gundato
If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

That being said, I would love to see a game where you are the evil mastermind who does nothing but manipulate the crap out of everyone in a truly heinous manner. That might even be the next "ground-breaking" deconstruction for gaming.

I think the Total War series has that down pat.

NalanoH. Wildmoon
Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
Attorney at Lawl
"His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

The problem with romance being game-y is that game-ying is the only reason to do it. I mean honestly you can't expect anyone to actually want to romance a digital character(except the japs).

So when you participate in a romance in a videogame you do it for all the game-y reasons - because of the possible benefits, or because you just want to see how it goes and what happens. Not because you actually want to.

Meanwhile shooting people in the face with .50 BMG - who doesn't want to do that?

I didn't know that about the spoiler you mentioned, haha. That's a nice touch. I'm not pointing at Bioware as the only developer in this case. I think that most games suffer from the trappings of power fantasies where relationships only go anywhere if you push them and everyone is just waiting around for your advances.

That tends to be a problem with entire game worlds in general, everything revolves around your character and it fosters a sense of entitlement. I'd like to see how gamers would react if it turned out the flirtations of the hot elf maid do not lead to something more, and she actually passed the player over in favour of another party member.

They do not lose dexterity, tenacity or cognitive capacity despite being shot thirty times until that last bullet grazes their pinky toe, at which point they die instantly. They have no sense of self-preservation, and indeed throw themselves into your line of fire without concern for the inevitable consequences. Over the course of two hours, you kill an order of magnitude more men than even the most hardy of combat veterans did over the course of their entire careers.

Still closer than video game romances.

- If the sound of Samuel Barber's "Adagio For Strings" makes you think of Kharak burning instead of the Vietnamese jungle, most of your youth happened during the 90s. -

It's funny how a game like The Witcher is subjected to brutal scrutiny by so many for its treatment of women, while a massive blockbuster game like GTA seems to get away with way, way more without too much of a public backlash (including by the RPS writing staff).

It's funny how a game like The Witcher is subjected to brutal scrutiny by so many for its treatment of women, while a massive blockbuster game like GTA seems to get away with way, way more without too much of a public backlash (including by the RPS writing staff).

A case of different expectations? Unfair, in any case.

Exactly. Different expectations. The GTA series used to be zany and is now gritty. And the non-hooker female NPCs were actually about as well written as the men (take that as you will...).

Or take Saints Row 3 where pretty much EVERY woman is a hooker or a Saint. But it works because EVERYTHING is sexualized and over the top and not meant to be taken seriously to the point that it is a parody.

Whereas most RPGs are trying to tell a "serious and well-written" story. So different standards.

Steam: Gundato
PSN: Gundato
If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

It's funny how a game like The Witcher is subjected to brutal scrutiny by so many for its treatment of women, while a massive blockbuster game like GTA seems to get away with way, way more without too much of a public backlash (including by the RPS writing staff).

A case of different expectations? Unfair, in any case.

You don't remember the Hot Coffee incident?

NalanoH. Wildmoon
Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
Attorney at Lawl
"His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

However, I find the charge that romance is too "gamey" kinda funny, considering nobody complains about combat being too "gamey," and in combat you're killing people.

Heh, that would be even more true if they added romance options to Call of Duty.

That's interesting, but most of the narrative comes from the interactions between the characters so I think some degree of realism is needed in role playing games. That's why I agreed with "combat should be skippable" part of that Bioware writer's argument, but it should be done in a smart fashion using role playing mechanics such as talking to people to get out of tough situations instead of gunning them down. Or you know, NPCs reacting to the equipment or reputation of your party.

I guess it's about where you put the focus of your realism in, computerized role playing is far behind tabletop when it comes to actually playing a role, and recent efforts by some developers to push it even more into the visceral combat!!!!!!&a bit of conversation territory is worrisome. But computers do combat much better than tabletop so is it's not actually a surprise it gets more attention.

Maybe it's about playing to the medium's strengths..but then again, most people just want to kill stuff and romance xenos, so that's what people make.