Well that's probably true, but I'm willing to take a salary hit to live in a better world.

What the hell does that even mean? Imagine you're a low-skilled worker in the US. Illegal immigration has decimated the market for your skills, because people are willing to work for less than minimum wage to do your job.

Now extrapolate that out to whatever market you work in. Someone with an H1B visa is willing to work for half your rate, so they get hired. Then companies lobby congress for more H1B visas so they can replace everyone with less expensive workers. More importantly, those workers are defined as temporary, so even if you're willing to work for that lower rate, you can't get hired, because you're an actual employee.

What "better world" is this? How do you think you win?

I meant more education, (specifically scientific) not more H1Bs.

Take a deep breath.

What the hell does education have to do with taking a salary hit? the point is you wouldn't even be able to get a job at that point. Its not "less money", its unemployed.

iheartscotch:FAKE! I went to a catholic school; even there they fit evolution to genesis. It wasn't six calendar days, no, it was six metaphorical days that stretched back from the moment god created the earth, till he created man.

While Catholic schools teach science (including evolution, big bang theory, dinosaurs, etc.) and don't see any conflict with their beliefs, not all private schools are Catholic. I will say again: If your church makes the Catholics look like goddamn hippies, FIND ANOTHER CHURCH.

iheartscotch:FAKE! I went to a catholic school; even there they fit evolution to genesis. It wasn't six calendar days, no, it was six metaphorical days that stretched back from the moment god created the earth, till he created man.

/ but, then again, that was right around the time that rocks were invented

I went to a Catholic school too. Baptists are no Catholics.

Seriously, if the US was Catholic, this BS wouldn't exist. If anything, the bible explicitly describes bio-genesis and evolution (man was formed from clay). But we aren't talking about churches that have had power through a massive hierarchy through centuries. We're talking about churches where the most literate out of a few hundred nearly illiterates was king. The shat they came up with 200 years ago is still haunting us today.

iheartscotch:FAKE! I went to a catholic school; even there they fit evolution to genesis. It wasn't six calendar days, no, it was six metaphorical days that stretched back from the moment god created the earth, till he created man.

/ but, then again, that was right around the time that rocks were invented

Not fake.

Sadly.

I know the original submitter to both reddit and its subsequent submission to Snopes.

impaler:iheartscotch: FAKE! I went to a catholic school; even there they fit evolution to genesis. It wasn't six calendar days, no, it was six metaphorical days that stretched back from the moment god created the earth, till he created man.

/ but, then again, that was right around the time that rocks were invented

I went to a Catholic school too. Baptists are no Catholics.

Seriously, if the US was Catholic, this BS wouldn't exist. If anything, the bible explicitly describes bio-genesis and evolution (man was formed from clay). But we aren't talking about churches that have had power through a massive hierarchy through centuries. We're talking about churches where the most literate out of a few hundred nearly illiterates was king. The shat they came up with 200 years ago is still haunting us today.

Cheater71:What the hell does education have to do with taking a salary hit? the point is you wouldn't even be able to get a job at that point. Its not "less money", its unemployed.

If everyone decided they wanted a STEM degree, and got educated for it, the supply of STEM degrees would increase, and without a corresponding increase in demand, I (someone with a STEM degree) would get paid less.

violentsalvation:I've known grown adults who believe that young earth / dinosaur shiat. They were otherwise educated, one I would go so far as to say he is brilliant, but he believes this shiat. I don't farking understand it.

The first person I personnally know who told me she was a creationist, was one of the most brilliant colleague I ever had.She was also hot as hell.And jewish, so that goes to show that not all creationists are christians.

Better yet, ask them to point to the exact passage in the bible that says the earth was created on such and such date. They can't because its not there. As with so many things in religion it's open to interpretation. Man is flawed, so sayeth the bible, so isn't it more likely that the 6000 years interpretation is also flawed? The date of the earth 'controversy' has an interesting history and any knowledge junkies would love to read it I'm sure.

On my phone ATM so hard to look up but it's out there I promise you.

Use their own arguments against them. Most of these people claim to believe in an exact, literal interpretation of the bible so at the very least sputter and backtracking and "but, but" loops will provide some entertainment.

violentsalvation:I've known grown adults who believe that young earth / dinosaur shiat. They were otherwise educated, one I would go so far as to say he is brilliant, but he believes this shiat. I don't farking understand it.

I've got a family member like that. He's super smart, computer programmer... he's forgotten more about old hardware than I will ever know. He's a super nice guy, but yeah... young earth creationist. I can't figure it out.

I remember i went to a 7th day adventist private school for junior high... (wanted out of the public system -- bullying sucks -- when i came back to it 3 years later the problems were gone...) And the SDA schools do push this stuff.

We had a pretty good science text book -- it delved into genetics and evolution and all the usual crap quite well so that wasnt a problem for me. The textbook had a title page for each chapter with a little blurb relating the subject matter to god but other than that it left god out of science. I think part of that is they picked nonbiased books because the kids had to do well on provincial exams for them to keep getting a subsidy.

They would give tests like this to kids in the 3-6 grades. Yup. I have seen it.

More rambling:

The teacher and the school staff and board were not so cool. Let me stress -- i am NOT SDA. My two best friends growing up however were and i spent tons of time in their church. I however was a waaaay to geeky kid (as i said -- bullies) and anything involving natural science made my pants tingle... I remember the SDA pastor being at the school one day and he was talking to the students about evolution and i asked him some pointed questions regarding their 6000 year earth theory. He came back with some crap about how the flood would have changed the air pressure so even the dinosaurs on the ark would have died because their lung capacity was too small or something. Like he pulled it straight out of his ass. I knew damn well he was full of shiat. I remember at the age of 14 being completely disgusted with a grown mans capacity for rational thought.

They really honest to god believe the sharp dinosaur teeth on things like T-Rex or Albertosaurus were made to cut through plant matter. I challenged them on that when i heard it and they insisted the serrated blade like teeth were for munching tough plant matter.

They told me not to drink milk because Adam and Eve would have just had water and juice. Like milking a cow is somehow against gods plan. You know -- the same god that promised a land of milk and honey?

They believe that Jesus turned water into juice rather than wine (they are all teetotalers) -- despite tons of evidence in the surrounding text pointing to the fact that everyone was wasted.

They were convinced the catholic pope would one day rule the world and make observance of the Jewish holy day illegal and force everyone on earth to go to church on Sunday. Then Jesus would return and save those who went to church on Saturday instead of Sunday and kept up with Jewish food laws even though Jesus tell his disciples its not important...

They don't dance. At all. Even at weddings. When i asked why i was informed dance was nothing but 'thinly veiled sex acts'. Weddings with no booze or dancing (just someones cousin playing pachbels canon in D over and over on the cello they ostensibly play other things on however i have never heard anything but canon in D come out of that guys cello) Well those get terrible fast. My sister almost walked out of my best friends wedding because the vows were nothing but misogyny and there was no booze or dance reward for it.

They wouldn't allow drums in their church because thats how indigenous (read coloured) people talk to satan. Im not kidding about that. My friend wanted to play some music for a skit he was doing for vacation bible school and an elder forbid it because it had drums and he cited that as a reason. I was there. I heard it. My buddy tried to object but was told he was trying to 'rationalize sinning' and when he complained to his parents that the church was f'ing crazy they told him to sit on it because the elder was a crazy old man and he was a church elder and the church followed and sometimes they might not agree with the rules but they had to follow them. Yeah -- Basically admitted he was wrong but they said they would obey his crazy because he was in charge.

I love this line -- they use it soooo often: Don't rationalize sin.

Think about that -- dont rationalize sin... Its like an automatic screw you to any reasoned though that opposes their dogma. And yet their lord rationalized 'sinning' to pull a lamb from a well on the sabbath...

I dont have any real beef with christians, I do have a beef with the SDA church. It seems more like a cult than a church.

kxs401:violentsalvation: I've known grown adults who believe that young earth / dinosaur shiat. They were otherwise educated, one I would go so far as to say he is brilliant, but he believes this shiat. I don't farking understand it.

I know a nuclear engineer (by training, not by profession any longer) who believes this crap. He's a religious nutball, of course. He was posting on Facebook about how it's likely that God put fossils on the Earth for his own purposes, or something. Oy.

A nuclear engineer I can understand, sort of. But I know a microbiologist who believes this too. And she's actively working in the field as well!

mephox:Better yet, ask them to point to the exact passage in the bible that says the earth was created on such and such date. They can't because its not there. As with so many things in religion it's open to interpretation. Man is flawed, so sayeth the bible, so isn't it more likely that the 6000 years interpretation is also flawed? The date of the earth 'controversy' has an interesting history and any knowledge junkies would love to read it I'm sure.

Yep. I used to argue with a creationist fundy that would get upset at the 6000 year notion. Funny he was smart enough to realize that "6000 years old" was so stupid it made his ilk sound like morons, yet he never bothered to question the rest.

Shadow Blasko:violentsalvation: I've known grown adults who believe that young earth / dinosaur shiat. They were otherwise educated, one I would go so far as to say he is brilliant, but he believes this shiat. I don't farking understand it.

I've got a family member like that. He's super smart, computer programmer... he's forgotten more about old hardware than I will ever know. He's a super nice guy, but yeah... young earth creationist. I can't figure it out.

violentsalvation:I've known grown adults who believe that young earth / dinosaur shiat. They were otherwise educated, one I would go so far as to say he is brilliant, but he believes this shiat. I don't farking understand it.

Yep, in a heartbeat. Tell me you prefer your sad little patch of earth over interstellar travel, and you get the perfunctory "Well, have a good one," as I blast off to infinity, and beyond...

I might change my mind if there are any real M-class planets out there, with crazy space mangoes growing on the space mango trees and herds of 6-legged space giraffes running majestically across the space savannas, crazy sexy blue-stripey space people, etc. If I have to live in a spaceship, I think I'd get claustrophobic after a while. And if all you've got to offer is places like Mars, well, it's still a whole less hospitable than Antarctica. :)

Steak_Cake_Sause:Shadow Blasko: violentsalvation: I've known grown adults who believe that young earth / dinosaur shiat. They were otherwise educated, one I would go so far as to say he is brilliant, but he believes this shiat. I don't farking understand it.

I've got a family member like that. He's super smart, computer programmer... he's forgotten more about old hardware than I will ever know. He's a super nice guy, but yeah... young earth creationist. I can't figure it out.

Then again, these kids are going to be our fellow citizens. Voters, coworkers, neighbors,

congressmen....

Not teaching kids basic science is scary, but so is encroaching upon the freedom to privately educate and exercise religion, so I don't know where to end up on this one....

That said, I don't know if this logic bears out. The atheists I knew in college were all educated in private Christian schools. It was a correlation I noticed so much that it in fact will inform my choice to NOT educate any kids I have in such schools if I want them to grow up with faith. There's no reason to write these kids off now.

Awright farkers, please forgive me for mistakes in this post but i'm getting a migraine and am half-blind from the aura at the moment. but this has seriously bugged me for a long time and i've never received a good answer.

so let's take the evangelical christian view as given, at least the core of it and forgive my jewish arse for getting a detail wrong -

1 - god is loving, caring and benevolent, if perhaps a wee bit tempermantal or murderous at times.2 - god created the universe and mankind about 6000 years ago3 - shortly afterwards, adam and eve ate the apple and thus doomed all mankind to sin, and thus to eternal suffering in the afterlife unless they were saved.4 - said salvation was given by his son, jesus, through his sacrifice about 2000 years ago. only through faith in jesus can sin be forgiven and humans can escape hell and enter heaven.

the problem i have is that there is a pretty big gap between creation, or even the fall - even start with god rebooting the earth with the flood, and the appearance of jesus. in that time, there was no means of salvation. so that means that everyone must have been condemned to hell.

everyone! that means everyone in the old testament, including the prophets. Abraham must be suffering in hell, as must noah, isaac, even moses was able to, thanks to god, lead the hebrews out of slavery and to the promised land, but still with no jesus not a one of them could escape the fires of hell.

plus don't forget the others around. socrates, plato, aristotle, lao-tzu, confucious, all the great thinkers, the poets, the engineers and mathematicians who built civilisation, who looked up in wonder at the universe, who built the great library at alexandria, all roasting in hell because they had the misfortune to die before jesus.

and that's just the locals. what about, say, the ones living in the americas? they had no way of learning about jesus and the one and only chance at salvation until after columbus. and what about the ones in oceania? or those wee islands in the south pacific? some of these places never had a missionary or a bible until the 20th century! and why? because our kind, just and loving god who is all powerful decidede to sit on his majestic arse for a few thousand years before finally sending his son, and then only sent him to one corner of the world.

so whch is it? i'll come back once my meds have kicked in because i genuinely want to know. do i have my theology wrong or has god committed a massive injustice upon millions of people born with no chance of redemption?

Shadow Blasko:Steak_Cake_Sause: Shadow Blasko: violentsalvation: I've known grown adults who believe that young earth / dinosaur shiat. They were otherwise educated, one I would go so far as to say he is brilliant, but he believes this shiat. I don't farking understand it.

I've got a family member like that. He's super smart, computer programmer... he's forgotten more about old hardware than I will ever know. He's a super nice guy, but yeah... young earth creationist. I can't figure it out.

Gordon Bennett:Awright farkers, please forgive me for mistakes in this post but i'm getting a migraine and am half-blind from the aura at the moment. but this has seriously bugged me for a long time and i've never received a good answer.

so let's take the evangelical christian view as given, at least the core of it and forgive my jewish arse for getting a detail wrong -

1 - god is loving, caring and benevolent, if perhaps a wee bit tempermantal or murderous at times.2 - god created the universe and mankind about 6000 years ago3 - shortly afterwards, adam and eve ate the apple and thus doomed all mankind to sin, and thus to eternal suffering in the afterlife unless they were saved.4 - said salvation was given by his son, jesus, through his sacrifice about 2000 years ago. only through faith in jesus can sin be forgiven and humans can escape hell and enter heaven.

the problem i have is that there is a pretty big gap between creation, or even the fall - even start with god rebooting the earth with the flood, and the appearance of jesus. in that time, there was no means of salvation. so that means that everyone must have been condemned to hell.

everyone! that means everyone in the old testament, including the prophets. Abraham must be suffering in hell, as must noah, isaac, even moses was able to, thanks to god, lead the hebrews out of slavery and to the promised land, but still with no jesus not a one of them could escape the fires of hell.

plus don't forget the others around. socrates, plato, aristotle, lao-tzu, confucious, all the great thinkers, the poets, the engineers and mathematicians who built civilisation, who looked up in wonder at the universe, who built the great library at alexandria, all roasting in hell because they had the misfortune to die before jesus.

and that's just the locals. what about, say, the ones living in the americas? they had no way of learning about jesus and the one and only chance at salvation until after columbus. and what about the ones in o ...

During the 3 days Jesus was dead, he descended into Abraham's Bosom where the people who died prior to Jesus' sacrifice would have had the opportunity to receive God's gift or to reject it.

I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion. God could very well have created creatures that are able to evolve to better suit their needs as time passes and things change. If anything that would seem to add to the glory of God; I mean, not only is He able to create life, but He creates life that continues to function and adapt independently of further supernatural meddling. How cool is that, right?

Gordon Bennett:so whch is it? i'll come back once my meds have kicked in because i genuinely want to know. do i have my theology wrong or has god committed a massive injustice upon millions of people born with no chance of redemption?

oh and forgive again for banging oan about this but i do know the answer given in dante's inferno with the first circle of hell reserved for the virtuous pagans who suffer no punishment, but that's not in the bible, that's all dante's invention. nice idea but that's the same poem that depicts his own personal enemies being tortured in specific ways and a girl he wanted to shag as a guide to heaven. it's hardly something that can be taken by anyone as legitimate divine revelation.

mephox:Better yet, ask them to point to the exact passage in the bible that says the earth was created on such and such date. They can't because its not there. As with so many things in religion it's open to interpretation. Man is flawed, so sayeth the bible, so isn't it more likely that the 6000 years interpretation is also flawed? The date of the earth 'controversy' has an interesting history and any knowledge junkies would love to read it I'm sure.

They think the bible is without flawThey think that with prayer and honest intentions god sends divine guidance in matters relating to interpreting the bible.They know jesus lived 2000 years ago and the bible has a bunch of genealogies relating him back to the line of david and the line of david back to adam and eve. They use all the info about how many generations there were and how long each poor bastard lived to count back to the rough date of the 'fall of man'They came up with about 6000 years since adam and eve got tossed.If you suggest anything to the contrary you have been 'led astray' and should read your bible and pray more.

The bible says men are flawed but they suggest the bible was divinely protected. Trying to get a fundie christian to admit the bible has some sort of cultural influence rather than all being entirely divinely inspired is like pulling teeth.

Gordon Bennett:Awright farkers, please forgive me for mistakes in this post but i'm getting a migraine and am half-blind from the aura at the moment. but this has seriously bugged me for a long time and i've never received a good answer.

so let's take the evangelical christian view as given, at least the core of it and forgive my jewish arse for getting a detail wrong -

This isn't the picture I was going for, but the caption is similar. (for some strange reason a GIS pulls up a bunch of watches for the quote. Damn you Dawkins)

/ just cause YOUR religion wears white coats when they conjecture about "facts".....

THIS is interesting. I have a feeling you're going to get jumped on here about this, but getting in real quick to say that I think you do have something of a point. Federal food legislation, for example, based on bad science, has resulted in dozens if not hundreds of restrictive laws and contributed directly to our country's obesity problem. When someone pointed out to me a month or two ago that science is the equivalent of a secular altar at which this country's academic elite worship, I initially reacted with something along the lines of, "okay, crazy." But it gave me pause, because although not a good analogy in all respects, there is definitely a tendency of some to just go, "Science, science, science, I can't hear you," the same way that the other side goes, "God, God, God, I can't hear you." Something to think about, at least for me.

The biggest difference, though, is that science is dynamic and tends to reverse itself in the face of irrefutable proof, whereas religious beliefs are static - based on incontrovertible truths - and don't. What would you say to that?

AverageAmericanGuy:During the 32 days Jesus was dead, he descended into Abraham's Bosom where the people who died prior to Jesus' sacrifice would have had the opportunity to receive God's gift or to reject it.

Jesus died on Friday afternoon, and arose Sunday morning.

/Also 3 distinct beings (father, son, holy spirit) is 1 being, because it has to be monotheistic.

Gordon Bennett:Awright farkers, please forgive me for mistakes in this post but i'm getting a migraine and am half-blind from the aura at the moment. but this has seriously bugged me for a long time and i've never received a good answer.

so let's take the evangelical christian view as given, at least the core of it and forgive my jewish arse for getting a detail wrong -

1 - god is loving, caring and benevolent, if perhaps a wee bit tempermantal or murderous at times.2 - god created the universe and mankind about 6000 years ago3 - shortly afterwards, adam and eve ate the apple and thus doomed all mankind to sin, and thus to eternal suffering in the afterlife unless they were saved.4 - said salvation was given by his son, jesus, through his sacrifice about 2000 years ago. only through faith in jesus can sin be forgiven and humans can escape hell and enter heaven.

the problem i have is that there is a pretty big gap between creation, or even the fall - even start with god rebooting the earth with the flood, and the appearance of jesus. in that time, there was no means of salvation. so that means that everyone must have been condemned to hell.

everyone! that means everyone in the old testament, including the prophets. Abraham must be suffering in hell, as must noah, isaac, even moses was able to, thanks to god, lead the hebrews out of slavery and to the promised land, but still with no jesus not a one of them could escape the fires of hell.

plus don't forget the others around. socrates, plato, aristotle, lao-tzu, confucious, all the great thinkers, the poets, the engineers and mathematicians who built civilisation, who looked up in wonder at the universe, who built the great library at alexandria, all roasting in hell because they had the misfortune to die before jesus.

and that's just the locals. what about, say, the ones living in the americas? they had no way of learning about jesus and the one and only chance at salvation until after columbus. and what about the ones in o ...

One cop-out is that if they never received the Word then they go straight to haven just like an aborted fetus.

Gordon Bennett:Gordon Bennett: so whch is it? i'll come back once my meds have kicked in because i genuinely want to know. do i have my theology wrong or has god committed a massive injustice upon millions of people born with no chance of redemption?

oh and forgive again for banging oan about this but i do know the answer given in dante's inferno with the first circle of hell reserved for the virtuous pagans who suffer no punishment, but that's not in the bible, that's all dante's invention. nice idea but that's the same poem that depicts his own personal enemies being tortured in specific ways and a girl he wanted to shag as a guide to heaven. it's hardly something that can be taken by anyone as legitimate divine revelation.

Gordon Bennett:Gordon Bennett: so whch is it? i'll come back once my meds have kicked in because i genuinely want to know. do i have my theology wrong or has god committed a massive injustice upon millions of people born with no chance of redemption?

oh and forgive again for banging oan about this but i do know the answer given in dante's inferno with the first circle of hell reserved for the virtuous pagans who suffer no punishment, but that's not in the bible, that's all dante's invention. nice idea but that's the same poem that depicts his own personal enemies being tortured in specific ways and a girl he wanted to shag as a guide to heaven. it's hardly something that can be taken by anyone as legitimate divine revelation.

It's been a while since college where I studied this, but they were freed in the Harrowing of Hell. It's not really dealt with in the Bible and so is still subject to often-conflicting interpretation, but the basic doctrinal idea is that Jesus did free the righteous of the ages before His redemption of the rest.

kazikian:I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion. God could very well have created creatures that are able to evolve to better suit their needs as time passes and things change. If anything that would seem to add to the glory of God; I mean, not only is He able to create life, but He creates life that continues to function and adapt independently of further supernatural meddling. How cool is that, right?