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just how talented is Danny Granger?

Pretty nice company. Sitting just behind the last two MVP's and the two top contenders to win it this year.

So the first couple weeks of the season we were all calling this an anomaly, but now 30 games in we see Danny Granger still firmly in the top 5 scorers in the NBA, and hes shooting a fairly solid 45%-46% from the field, so its not like he is just chucking. He is also bringing his assist number up closer to 3.5 per game, and has been averaging a solid 4.25 assists in the last 12 games, in fact... last 12 games: 25.6 ppg, 5 rebounds, and 4.25 assists. Danny Granger is STILL improving with no signs of stopping yet. Now there are still some weakness areas, still needs to cut his turnovers down... and has shown flashes with his driving ability along with getting to the free throw line, just needs a bit more consistency. I also don't feel like he has reached his defensive potential...

That being said, Im hardly worried about any of those things because I feel they are all within his natural ability to improve upon and as far as improvement goes, it would appear that Danny Granger never stops improving.

On to the main point of this post. These are impressive numbers, but for some reason, people continue to prop up the same old line... Danny is a great robin, but he is not a batman. I am going to propose a novel concept that may send people's heads spinning... Perhaps instead of Danny needing a "Batman", maybe he needs a "Robin"? Could that be the problem?

Heartland fan brought up an interesting point in the post game thread... If Danny Granger would have been drafted in the top 5 as he probably should have been, people around here would view him as an emerging super star, but because he was picked 17 people have a hard time reconciling this. Im curious as to WHY exactly Danny Granger is so far less talented than the best player on every other team in the NBA, as seems to be the common wisdom around here... despite the fact that most of these players are not quite as productive. Something just does not compute.

Best player on a bad team? I have never really bought into this line of thinking, at least in our case. I mean, Kevin Durant is the best player on a terrible team, way worse than ours, does this mean he lacks talent? That team is on pace for the worst record ever. Of course there are cases where a one-dimensional scoring player puts up a lot of points on a crappy team, usually by chucking on bad percentages... but this is not what I see when I watch the Pacers.

Another possibility I will address is "Clutchness". Pacers have been good enough to be in all these games (with good teams no less) at the end but just haven't had enough to finish them out... why? Some would say that this is because of talent level. I think this is correct, but not in the way many might think.

How many game winning shots has Danny missed this year? Lately he has been scoring a lot of points in the 4th, but has anyone ever noticed he never seems to get the ball on the last possesion? It would appear that the other team goes to great lengths to deny danny the ball in these situations, and the fact of the matter is, we don't have a consistent second scoring threat to take the pressure off him in crunchtime.

I mean, I could also go into team defensive failures as another culprit, which is another non-danny related issue that might explain some of these close losses.

Did anyone honestly expect Danny Granger to produce like he has so far this season? I didn't. I think its about time people reconcile their preconcieved notions about Granger with reality... dude is a hell of a player, and appears to have stepped into his "1st option" role without a problem. Im going to go against convential wisdom here and argue lack of a first option is no longer a pacers problem. Discuss.

Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 12-29-2008 at 02:13 AM.

"As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

I think it's a recurring problem that began about 2001 when a lot of people had trouble reconciling that Reggie Miller wasn't going to be the best Pacers player for the rest of their lives. I think many have still not gotten over this, and if the best Pacers player isn't scoring 25 points in the 4th quarter or nailing dagger threes (which HEY DANNY WAS DOING TONIGHT IF ANYONE ELSE HAD GIVEN US ANYTHING IN THE 4th WE WOULD HAVE WON) then they just aren't up to snuff for us or in regards to the rest of the NBA.

My point is this, don't expect another Reggie Miller, he's was an unique talent, but he's not coming back, ever. So stop trying to get every other top Pacers player to measure up to him.

And now, I'm going to commit some real blasphemy, you can make the argument, that based on talent alone, Granger is already better than Miller. Does he have the resume, the cojones, or the moxie? Absolutely not, and he may never have the balls that Reg had, but that goes back to my point, they are two different talents. People were so attached to Reggie that I think they have a hard time accepting anyone else as the face of the Pacers franchise, and this is responsible for the backlash that Danny and to some extent JO received when they tried to do it.

I'm just curious as well, to where Danny is so lacking in his game that it looks like it cannot be fixed. Does he bog down the offense? Is he such a turnover machine that there is no way this could improve as he ages or the cast around him gets better? Does he not give his greatest effort every night?

You wanna know what the typical best player on a bad team looks like go take a gander at Jackson on the Warriors or even Michael Redd and Richard Jefferson, (Unless you really think highly of the Bucks that is).

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

The Pacers used to do an excellent job of getting Reggie open AND getting him the ball in late game situations. Everyone in the building, coaches, vendors, fans, opposing players, etc KNEW Reggie was getting the ball and the shot and more times than not we got him open and he got a good look.

Soooooo are we really doing those things for Granger?

-Bball

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

I think our late game plays suck to put it nicely. They are usually ill conceived and they do not utilize screens nearly as well as most of the teams Reggie played on. Most of the time they seem to focus on some poorly timed handoff maneuver between the initiator of the play and the person who will take the shot.

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

Soooooo are we really doing those things for Granger?

Good point. I don't know if it's coaching, Grangers passiveness, or other players' unwillingness to give him the ball, but he doesn't get the ball enough in last second situations. Tonight, he carried us for the entire forth quarter, but on the inbounds pass with 2 seconds to go, he wasn't even on the screen. There should be a concerted effort every game to get Danny open. I don't care if you have to set 12 screens in the process. You get him open and give him the last shot. No offense to the other players, but they have no business taking those shots.

I just wonder what Granger and this team will be like when (if) Dunleavy returns.

This is a valid concern, but IMO I don't feel it will be the same as it was when Jermaine was here last year. When JO was out in the past, Danny typically stepped up. He would show flashes of brilliance only to be smothered by JO when he came back because Jermaine was supposedly the main guy. Now, Danny is clearly the Pacers best player and #1 option at all times. If anything, I think the return of Dunleavy will help Granger by taking pressure off him.

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

I just wonder what Granger and this team will be like when (if) Dunleavy returns.

I was tempted to bring this up but I don't want it to seem like I am arguing the return of dun would solve all our problems. However, he is certainly capabale of being a second scoring option on a good team. On the other hand, he is not a guy who is going to gaurd the other teams best player therefore allowing Danny to focus on scoring for the bulk of the game... so ideally I hope to see Dunleavy as a sixth man who finishes games.

"As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

I love Granger, he is my favorite player in the NBA right now, but I still think he could do a better job at the end of games. See NJ a week ago, two costly missed free throws at the very end. Tonight, setteling for long jumpers instead of being more aggressive. Could Danny turn into a batman? Sure. Right now though he is not. Batman's teams don't have as poor of a record in close games as we do.

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

With us losing 90% or better of our games in the 4th quarter , and usually under a 10 point margin , I REALLY think that when Dunleavy comes back .. he is that missing link we need to get over that hump to win all those games...

I think we are a Dunleavy away from being a feared team ..

Look at it like this...

ALOT of teams and coaches ,believe it or not , respect what we are capable of doing on the court... and many have mentioned it numerous times throughout this season , saying that our record doesn't tell the tale of how good we actually are ..

I think that with Dunleavy on the floor.. not only does he take away the pressure of the scoring load off of Granger, but he also will draw the opposing team's defense off of Granger, which in turn will make it ALOT easier for Danny to be that GO TO guy and to take over games...

Dunleavy is such an intelligent player... even without the ball , that his on court decisions, actually make the team around him better...

Dunleavy is , in my opinion , just as deadly at the 3 , if not more than Danny ..
His 20 - 25 points per game , and high IQ , is what we need to really strike the fear into other teams.. If Marquis is still playing as good as he is , when Dun gets back , It will give our bench that much NEEDED scoring boost with his 16 to 20 pts a game..

I just hope like heck that Dun gets his knee in check , and will perform at the level he did last season.. If he can do that, then I think we will be very close to where we need to be in terms of progress and winning...

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

I like Dunleavy's game, but if the missing piece to winning is a guy whose never played in the playoffs we are hurting for sure. Yes Mike will help on offense, but his return will make our defense worse than it already is if that is possible.

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

I like Dunleavy's game, but if the missing piece to winning is a guy whose never played in the playoffs we are hurting for sure. Yes Mike will help on offense, but his return will make our defense worse than it already is if that is possible.

See, but to make this statement amounts to faulting Dunleavy for the teams he played on not making the playoffs. Players build their playoff resume by making the playoffs, and making the playoffs is a team thing. Dunleavy not having played on a playoff team says nothing about his ability to dramatically improve the flow of this team.

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

The Pacers used to do an excellent job of getting Reggie open AND getting him the ball in late game situations. Everyone in the building, coaches, vendors, fans, opposing players, etc KNEW Reggie was getting the ball and the shot and more times than not we got him open and he got a good look.

Soooooo are we really doing those things for Granger?

Nope. They were throwing 2 guys at granger in the 4th last night, and he was still shooting because everybody else on the floor was waiting for him to do so.

This team still needs more balance, and more real threats late in games.

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Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

The Pacers used to do an excellent job of getting Reggie open AND getting him the ball in late game situations. Everyone in the building, coaches, vendors, fans, opposing players, etc KNEW Reggie was getting the ball and the shot and more times than not we got him open and he got a good look.

Soooooo are we really doing those things for Granger?

-Bball

Unlike Reggie, Granger can get his own shot. Still I'd take him shooting off a screen like Reggie used to do for a last shot.

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

The Pacers used to do an excellent job of getting Reggie open AND getting him the ball in late game situations. Everyone in the building, coaches, vendors, fans, opposing players, etc KNEW Reggie was getting the ball and the shot and more times than not we got him open and he got a good look.

Soooooo are we really doing those things for Granger?

-Bball

There is not a lot of experienced talent around Danny as there was for Reggie. Give it time.

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

[QUOTE=Will Galen;825250]

Our trouble is we can't stop anyone at the end of games. /QUOTE]

No, the trouble is that the Pacers can't stop anyone during the whole game. 20 games of teams scoring 100 or more points with other teams winning 18 of those games. When the Pacers keep their opponents 99 points or less, they have won 80% of those games. If this team was playing "D" the whole game, other teams wouldn't be in a situation where they can win games in the last 3 minutes or less.

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

Honestly I feel like if Danny improved his ball handling and agility a little bit then he would be nearly unstoppable, and would be mentioned as a superstar by most people. I have noticed that he's great at coming off screens and getting that open shot, and he can drive if someone gives him a little space, but at times he struggles with his dribbling and seems to be looking down at the ball when he's trying to get around someone.

I also feel like he would be even better if he was on a better team because he is such a great shooter and defender, and it's not like he's just jacking up a lot of shots to try and get 25 per game..he's taking good shots and knocking them down. I only see him take maybe 3 bad shots a game.

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

Jarrett Jack is a big fan of having a vice grip on the ball in late game situations, unless the target of his pass is the opposing team.

IMO, that's the only thing holding Danny back. After last night's game and the loss to the Clippers I couldn't help but wonder if the Pacers would've won if Diener was on the floor to finish the game.

As far as the question of this thread is concerned... Danny is as good as Andre Igoudala, Richard Jefferson, Josh Howard, Michael Redd, Vince Carter, Caron Butler, Shawn Marion, and the current bad back version of TMac. He's actually better than most of those guys because I don't think the Pacers would be getting equal value if they traded him for any of those guys.

He's close to being as good as Pierce, Joe Johnson, and maybe Carmelo (only because Melo's defense is still lacking) but I'd put him on that same level. I guess I'd say he's in the tier below superstars like LeBron, DWade, and Kobe.

However, it's the fact that we can even have this debate that shows how talented Danny is. He's been a wonderful bright spot for the Pacers this season and we should be glad to have him.

Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

IMO, that's the only thing holding Danny back. After last night's game and the loss to the Clippers I couldn't help but wonder if the Pacers would've won if Diener was on the floor to finish the game.

As far as the question of this thread is concerned... Danny is as good as Andre Igoudala, Richard Jefferson, Josh Howard, Michael Redd, Vince Carter, Caron Butler, Shawn Marion, and the current bad back version of TMac. He's actually better than most of those guys because I don't think the Pacers would be getting equal value if they traded him for any of those guys.

He's close to being as good as Pierce, Joe Johnson, and maybe Carmelo (only because Melo's defense is still lacking) but I'd put him on that same level. I guess I'd say he's in the tier below superstars like LeBron, DWade, and Kobe.

However, it's the fact that we can even have this debate that shows how talented Danny is. He's been a wonderful bright spot for the Pacers this season and we should be glad to have him.

Melo is so overrated. Danny Granger is already better than Melo, Melo just has more publicity. Melo's defense isn't lacking, its non existent. Granger is also better than all those players you mentioned on the top. I agree that Pierce and Johnson are better at this point with their ability to close games, once he can prove to do that, I'd only put him behind Bron, Wade, and Kobe.

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

Melo is so overrated. Danny Granger is already better than Melo, Melo just has more publicity. Melo's defense isn't lacking, its non existent. Granger is also better than all those players you mentioned on the top. I agree that Pierce and Johnson are better at this point with their ability to close games, once he can prove to do that, I'd only put him behind Bron, Wade, and Kobe.

Carmelo was drafted by a team that was in the basement. Ever since, the Nuggets have made the playoffs every single season in the Western Conference and he's been the best player on the team. He's been on Team USA since 2004 and been one of the 3 or 4 best players on the team each time he's played. He's a multiple time all-star who's been voted in by the COACHES each time.

He's overrated if you want him to be Lebron or Kobe. Otherwise, he's the best player on a perennial playoff team. It's amazing how much hate guys like Carmelo get for being very good, but not the best.

Re: just how talented is Danny Granger?

Carmelo was drafted by a team that was in the basement. Ever since, the Nuggets have made the playoffs every single season in the Western Conference and he's been the best player on the team. He's been on Team USA since 2004 and been one of the 3 or 4 best players on the team each time he's played. He's a multiple time all-star who's been voted in by the COACHES each time.

He's overrated if you want him to be Lebron or Kobe. Otherwise, he's the best player on a perennial playoff team. It's amazing how much hate guys like Carmelo get for being very good, but not the best.

Now, I'm not saying Melo is bad - but he is a scorer - thats it. He is not the superstar that everyone makes him out to be. I'm not faulting him for being compared to LeBron, I'm saying he simply got so much hype out of college and high school, that when he puts up 21 ppg, everyone acts as if he is amazing. Had Jamaal Crawford gotten the same hype, we'd be talking about him in the same sentence. Carmelo Anthony doesn't play defense at all, and while he may have been one of the best scorers on Team USA, he wasn't close to being the best player.