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Really, I did not know. It is not bias though, it is not like I just randomly picked Ash's Torkoal as the worst Pokemon ever. I think he is weak, no good personality, and useless, that is not a bias it is an opinion.

Torkoal was out-numbered, CS. The Magnemite were all shocking the poor turtle at the same time while Skarmory was striking it with Swift. It was out-numbered. Ash even told Max that. Torkoal may not be as strong as Charizard, but it's not weak. It has some great battles to come. Just give it a chance...

You don't come to spoilers very often, do you. It is not like I have all these opinions after one episode, I know of its battles (how you can call ANY of them great is beyond me) to come. I have given plenty of reasons before I think it is weak, one of which is his sparkling record of [SPOILERS] 2 and 2, wow 50%, nice [/SPOILERS] what a great fighter it is.

Superb animation, incredible battle sequence, Steelix being more than just a random mean Pokemon, Ash having a rather unique bonding experience with his new Pokemon, etc. aren't considered the least bit redeeming? I thought it was things like that that made episodes great.

It did look good, but I don't care about animation or graphics, so that is not in the least bit redeeming to me. Why does everyone think this battle was so good? Do people really like Dragon Breath that much, that because of it everyone is saying it was so good. DB, FT that does not hurt, Sandstorm, FT that does not hurt, and Overheat, not that good. Brock telling Ash not to use OH to early was also dumb because 1 Evidently on the Anime it just weakens OH itself, and not Sp At, and 2 Even if it does weaken Sp At on the Anime, FT was doing absolutely nothing anyway, so who cares if it was weakened

What makes it so much worse than the Squirtle, Charmander, Lapras capture or any other Pokemon capture episode where Ash didn't battle the Pokemon?

Clearly no one understood what I was saying here. I don't mean the capture itself, I mean the episode is the worst episode that a capture took place in.

Scrubs (My Cold Shower) JD's closing Monolouge: As I looked at all the relationships around me, Some that had gone on forever, (Cox and Jordan) Some that were reigniting, (Carla and Turk) And some that were had just begun, (Elliot and Keith) I realized something.

It should have been me. (In reference to Elliot while he is taking a cold shower.)
YES, JElliot is coming back. Screw Elliot Keith, and all its backers.

Well, I like Torkoal personally, but I side with you on saying what's so good about the battle? If anything, it was bad. Steelix withstanding Flamethrower? Not possible, unless it had a Focus Band, which it obviously didn't. I can't even express how absurd it is that Steelix can withstand Overheat. Maybe if Torkoal was Lv. 5, and Steelix was level 100, it could be possible, but that was not the case. The animation was no better than usual, as far as I saw. A pretty darn ludicrous battle. The most noteworthy battle is that of May and Grace. This battle............meh, it was better than some, but there are a lot of better ones out there.

SC~ out

Most Recent Works:

Hoenn's Legacy - An epic of the destruction of Hoenn, the rebuilding of it, and the second destruction. War story, rated TV-14 for Violence.

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Ficubes made by me.

Someone gave me a keychain once that said "You're depriving some poor village of it's idiot." I thought it was a joke but no one else laughed

When people talk about how weak Torkoal is, because its Flamethrower can't knock out a Steelix, they most likely forget, Steelix is part ground. So, actually, Steelix is neutral to fire attacks. That's why Torkoal wasn't kicking its....err, butt. And, Torkoal isn't well trained yet

I am not worried, Harry. I am with you.

^This is my new fanfic. It's a work in progress, so please read and comment at your discretion. I hope you like it. I think you will.

When people talk about how weak Torkoal is, because its Flamethrower can't knock out a Steelix, they most likely forget, Steelix is part ground. So, actually, Steelix is neutral to fire attacks. That's why Torkoal wasn't kicking its....err, butt. And, Torkoal isn't well trained yet

Yeah, even a lot of pure ground types can be easily defeated by fire types because they generally have terrible special defense. As long as the fire type gets the first hit that is. That's not to say I dislike Torkoal or think she's weak, but Steelix should not have lasted that long against her.

When people talk about how weak Torkoal is, because its Flamethrower can't knock out a Steelix, they most likely forget, Steelix is part ground. So, actually, Steelix is neutral to fire attacks. That's why Torkoal wasn't kicking its....err, butt. And, Torkoal isn't well trained yet

When people talk about ground being resistant to fire, I am reminded of people thinking Rock is resistant to Electricity. Because that is likely where these same people got their info from. You should know better.

Scrubs (My Cold Shower) JD's closing Monolouge: As I looked at all the relationships around me, Some that had gone on forever, (Cox and Jordan) Some that were reigniting, (Carla and Turk) And some that were had just begun, (Elliot and Keith) I realized something.

It should have been me. (In reference to Elliot while he is taking a cold shower.)
YES, JElliot is coming back. Screw Elliot Keith, and all its backers.

What the hell is up with all this Torkoal-bashing anyway? Simple concept here guys, if the defending Pokemon is much stronger than the attacker, obviously the attacker's attacks won't do as much damage as compared to if the battle was a little more even.

And where exactly is the basis for saying that Flamethrower did absolutely nothing against Steelix? -_-

Great ep, lots of action and battles, even a dramatic rescue. No idea how anyone could possibly call it boring.

I liked this episode alot, at first i didn't get why Ash choose this pokemon, instead of Numel. But i think now this pokemon actually earns to be on Ash's team. But the only thing was it was a bit early to be caught that's all.

Well, it had been a while since Ash caught Corphish back at Dewford Town. I'm sure the writers thought it was time for Ash to catch something new. He's now got a fire type to go with his electric, flying, grass, and water types. Ash has a trend to catch these types throughout each series (excluding the Orange Islands of course). One of the most interesting changes in trend has to be Brock since he has moved from the rock and ground types to water.

Well, I like Torkoal personally, but I side with you on saying what's so good about the battle? If anything, it was bad. Steelix withstanding Flamethrower? Not possible, unless it had a Focus Band, which it obviously didn't. I can't even express how absurd it is that Steelix can withstand Overheat. Maybe if Torkoal was Lv. 5, and Steelix was level 100, it could be possible, but that was not the case. The animation was no better than usual, as far as I saw. A pretty darn ludicrous battle.

Absurd? The anime ISN'T THE GAME. In the anime a Pokemon's defenses are its defenses, there isn't a seperation between special defense and normal defense. Steelix has extremely high defenses. Even in the games it can withstand several super effective Attack-based attacks. Since in the anime it doesn't have low special defense since special defense doesn't exist, it would do just as well with Water or Fire attacks.

And really, it isn't as though they neglected the way things usually are. Everyone was surprised that the Steelix withstood Fire attacks so easily, in the anime that happens soemtimes. Need I remind you that weaknesses aren't set in stone in the anime?

I mena there's the Poliwrath in the Orange Islands that had mastered its elemental weaknesses. Then there's AJ's Sandshrew who was not weak to water. Not to mention the Skarmory in Johto that had learned to beat all other types and then built up a resistance to Fire. Heck, need I mention Prima's Cloyster who was hit hard by Thunder but only suffered a little damage? In the games almost any Electric attack will OHKO a Cloyster as they have incredible Defense but terrible Special Defense.

Really if you call this battle absurd you'd have to call every battle in the anime absurd as none of them follow in-game stats to the letter.

Originally Posted by Heracross

Yeah, even a lot of pure ground types can be easily defeated by fire types because they generally have terrible special defense. As long as the fire type gets the first hit that is. That's not to say I dislike Torkoal or think she's weak, but Steelix should not have lasted that long against her.

The Steelix was supposed to be very strong and not very weak to Fire, how would it have made sense for it to go down quickly to Torkoal? If you went by the game, then most battles involving super-effective moves would end in one or two attacks. The anime is much better in providing some realistic variations to what type weaknesses really do. The game can't and shouldn't model this, as it wouldn't work there.

And it isn't as though the battle was that long. Steelix got hit with two Flamethrowers, blocked the others, then went down from an Overheat. How can that possibly be seen as wrong when no one complains about Mewtwo tossing Hyper Beams away with its hands, Abra teleporting to dodge attacks, or Raichu running out of electricity. I really can't concieve why people are making such an issue out of this episode and its events. It was explained that Steel types are normally weak to Fire but this one wasn't nearly so, why is that so hard to accept? There was no outcry over Ash's Taillow being much more resistant to Electricity than most Flying types, but a Steelix manages to take a few Fire attacks before going down and people are up in arms...

My apologies if I sound rude, I'm just frustrated as I can't get my mind around this reasoning...

Nor can I, Pokemon Fan, since I have this impression that this whole thing is only coming from people who can do nothing but complain anyway. I'm starting to think it's useless to try and convince them to have an open mind. -_-

And where exactly is the basis for saying that Flamethrower did absolutely nothing against Steelix? -_-

Been a few days since I saw it, but I know someone on the show said something like that, and I am thinking it was Brock.

Scrubs (My Cold Shower) JD's closing Monolouge: As I looked at all the relationships around me, Some that had gone on forever, (Cox and Jordan) Some that were reigniting, (Carla and Turk) And some that were had just begun, (Elliot and Keith) I realized something.

It should have been me. (In reference to Elliot while he is taking a cold shower.)
YES, JElliot is coming back. Screw Elliot Keith, and all its backers.

True...but Brock was a distance away from Steelix, so that may have affected his estimate. Plus, like you, he was probably expecting Flamethrower to do much more damage, so when Steelix stood up to it instead of cringing or making some sort of defensive reaction, it seemed like it didn't work, even though it probably did at least some damage. Steelix was probably hurting, but it seemed like it was badass enough not to let it show.

That make any sense?

Funny how nobody complained about Ash's Heracross standing up to Gary's Magmar's Fire Blast and coming back to win, but people complain about Steelix standing up to Torkoal's Flamethrower.

I liked this episode. The idea of Ash befriending Torkoal before he caught it was good because Ash helped it conquer the Steel Crew. Torkoal's voice, I thought, was pretty good (considering I always thought of tortoises havind sort of dopey voices.) Team Rocket constantly blasting off in this episode was very funny. Over all, it was a nice filler and I give it a 8.5/10.

True...but Brock was a distance away from Steelix, so that may have affected his estimate. Plus, like you, he was probably expecting Flamethrower to do much more damage, so when Steelix stood up to it instead of cringing or making some sort of defensive reaction, it seemed like it didn't work, even though it probably did at least some damage. Steelix was probably hurting, but it seemed like it was badass enough not to let it show.

That seems to me to be what they were trying to show. Max's exact words were along the lines of (if I remember right) that Steelix took a "direct Flamethrower without flinching." It was likely hurt by the attack but like Ash's Taillow it knew how to push past the pain and resist it. ^_^

the biggest gripe I have with this episode, is the reason why Torkoal wanted to fight steelix in the first place... what's up with the whole "restoring it's respect as a Fire type?" why couldn't he and Steelix just leave each other alone and just live and let live? and what exactly is so great about being a Fire Type pokemon as opposed to say, some other type?

technically, it's still a pretty small complaint, I don't complain too much about episodes because I see no point to complain about them on the internet... doesn't do much but annoy other people

the biggest gripe I have with this episode, is the reason why Torkoal wanted to fight steelix in the first place... what's up with the whole "restoring it's respect as a Fire type?" why couldn't he and Steelix just leave each other alone and just live and let live? and what exactly is so great about being a Fire Type pokemon as opposed to say, some other type?

You really didn't understand this episode at all, did you? That was pretty clearly explained. Apparently, Torkoal had gotten lost just like Ash & co and ended up in the Steel Valley, and Steelix's gang had ganged up on it. It can take any of them one-on-one, and it knows it, but it was outnumbered so it lost its pride. It knew its only chance for survival was to take on the gang leader, one-on-one.

oh right... super... I try to come with something about the episode that's not about the actual battle, and it ends up blowing up in my face... of all people, I should have seen this coming -_-;

Allow me to explain my perception of it a bit.

All Pokemon have pride in what they are, be it their type or their species. We've seen this through the whole series: Pikachu's pride in being a Pikachu being what made it want to defeat Raichu and not evolve, Charizard's pride as a Fire type causing it to only fight other Fire type early on (explained by Oak in the Indigo Plateau) and its pride as a Charizard when it was beaten by other Charizards ("Charizard's Burning Ambition"), Bulbasaur and Meganium's pride as Grass types causing them to battle with incredible vigor and fall defeated with smiles and mutual respect (the episode's Japanese title even included the words "Spirit of the Grass types").

In this case, I don't think that the initial battle Torkaol had involved it being ganged up on. The Steelix seemed to believe in one-on-one fights. Brock said that he saw evidence from damage to Torkoal that it had fought Steelix at some time recently in the past. The most likely scenario is that Torkoal got lost, ended up in the valley, then fought and lost to Steelix.

Being a Fire type it couldn't stand having lost so easily to a Steel type which it is supposed to be strong against, so Torkoal kept coming back, determined to win back its pride and respect by at least doing well against Steelix. However, having already beaten it, Steelix saw no need to fight it again, and the other Steel types commenced with continually beating Torkoal out of the valley. However, when Steelix later saw that Torkoal had defeated his right-hand Magneton, it decided to challenge this upstart Fire type and settle things once and for all.

Pokemon are very competitive creatures, often with a warrior's pride in their own abilities. It of course varies with the individual, but some it seems can't stand losing easily to type they are supposed to be strong against, and conversely especially enjoy proving their skill by beating Pokemon that have a type advantage over them.

This really wasn't a bad capture ep by any means, though it could have been significantly better.

I'll admit to being one of those who wasn't nuts about Ash getting Torkoal(largely because I wanted the elemental mold tossed into the nearest car crusher on hand), but the little guy's started growing on me. Now if only Ash would try teaching him Rock Slide...

IMHO, the writers wasted a grand opportunity for a debut. Remember that scene in the beginning with the Magnemite pair and Skarmory? Now imagine that same scene, but two *Metang* using Psychic to haul Torkoal sky-high instead of the T-Waving Maggies, a small pack of Beldum playing 'tag' with the hapless tortoise via Take Down, *plus* that same Skarmory tossed in for even more grief.

The music was pretty good, but I'm wondering why they couldn't have that music from that scene near the end of A Togepi Mirage (I'm referring to the scene where Misty sics Gyarados on Hansen) for the Torkoal vs. Steelix scene. That particular tune seems like it would've fit quite perfectly. Steelix's entrance was quite grand, if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Geodude

True...but Brock was a distance away from Steelix, so that may have affected his estimate. Plus, like you, he was probably expecting Flamethrower to do much more damage, so when Steelix stood up to it instead of cringing or making some sort of defensive reaction, it seemed like it didn't work, even though it probably did at least some damage. Steelix was probably hurting, but it seemed like it was badass enough not to let it show.

That make any sense?

Funny how nobody complained about Ash's Heracross standing up to Gary's Magmar's Fire Blast and coming back to win, but people complain about Steelix standing up to Torkoal's Flamethrower.

Great points about Steelix and Flamthrower, Geodude. I'd like to add to it by noting that given Steelix's stature among those Steel-types, it was probably at a high enough level of both power and experience to be able to simultaneously push right through Torkoal's Flamethrower and break it up. In game terms(braces for PF's "THIS IS NOT THE GAME!!!), think of it this way:

In theory, Torkoal should be able to shrug off almost anything Steelix might throw at him, and sooner or later burn Steelix to the ground. However, if we change the scenario by increasing Steelix's level by a significant amount(say to L80), things get *much* more hazardous for Torkoal, to say the least.

As to Torkoal coming under attack in the first place, it could be that when he wandered into Steel Valley, he wound up---probably unintentionally---antagonizing/frightening several of the residential pokemon while venting his frustration about the situation. As territorial as these Steel-types are, it's ridiculously unlikely that they were simply going about looking to pick on whatever they came across. They knew who their specific intruder was, blasted the living daylights out him, and left for home upon tossing Torkoal out of the valley. When Ash-tachi came waltzing in and started interfering with what those Steel-types considered an internal affair, the kids wound up being fair game to the metalheads.