Derby Talk

Derby Talk is a forum for Pinewood Derby, Awana Grand Prix, Kub Kar Rally, Shape N Race Derby, Space Derby, Raingutter Regatta and other similar races where a child and an adult work together to create a race vehicle and a lot of fun and memories

If you are just getting started into the hobby of pinewood derby.
And you are looking at scroll saws as a way to cut patterned design cars from the pinewood derby books that have internal cuts out in there design
or to a design of your very own. Or by chance you've just purchased a scroll saw.. or are unfamiliar with them but looking to get one to get started.

I fell there is a need for this topic just based off some of the scroll saw questions that have been ask to me on the site lately!
Because I was once new to the hobby of scroll sawing my self .. so with that said i'm going to shift my focus on to this topic.
A little about my self and my scroll sawing hobby.. I'v been doing it for a little over 15 years now and i'm some what self taught.

But it is my hopes with what i'm going to share here .. that it will help you and your child to have a pleasant experience with using a scroll saw
as you enter into the pinewood derby , wood working and scroll sawing hobbies.

For starters new into scroll sawing I don't recommend paying a lot for a new scroll saw when there are many models for less that will make grate starter saws.
You probably don't want to pay a lot and buy the most expensive equipment when your getting started in any hobby!
So look at it this way once your hooked you can always up-grade.
But as with any piece of equipment you buy the more features the saw has the more the price go's up.

So with that in mind when your looking to purchase a scroll saw.. keep a mind set that some of the features can be added later
when your tempted to go with the model that is more expensive.
Some of the features that can be added later are accessories to your saw like a light source, magnifying glass, saw stand, and on/off foot peddle controls.

Some buying advise that I my self would look for in a starter saw would be the controls on the saw because you'll be using them a lot !
Are the on/off & tension controls in a safe spot and easy to reach.

Variable speed control models are in my opinion a good option to have.. because you'll have a hard time adding that feature to your saw later.
And when you new to scroll sawing you'll want a saw you can control by slowing it down for better control over your work!
When you fell your ready to cut at a faster pace and feed rate you'll have away to speed the saw up.

Probably the most important decisions to make when buying a scroll saw is on the blade type the saw uses.
Some models use pin-end blades only, or the reg flat blade only or both blade types.
Now here's that important decision you have to make and that's finding one that will allow you easy blade changes or one you can work with
for the type of work you'll be doing most with the saw.
I say this because there are some models that have very cumbersome blade chucks to where the blades are some what of a pain to change out.
To me this only leads to a bad experience with using the saw if you are having a hard time changing blades out.

From there look at the table sizes and shapes or into the way they tilt... some will tilt more to the left.. some left and right..
and then on some of the higher end scroll saw models only the arms tilt while the table stays flat..

Most scroll saws can cut up to 2" with the hold down removed and work table flat in some cases.
For most scroll saw hobbies the 18'' model will handle most all the saw jobs. larger model saws larger projects!

Well that's it for tonight.. as I will be back with some photos showing some scroll saw's that I have in my workshop.
That I'm hoping will show you just how hard it can be to change blades on some different models.
From there I'll get into sharing different blade types and talk about there use's.

Last edited by whodathunkit on Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:57 am, edited 9 times in total.

Okay last night i left off talking about table tops and the different types!
When buying, pay attention to the following features: there shapes round , rectangular, and so on the size, or center openings, blade slots
for ease of blade installation & there abilities to tilt either direction.
Other important considerations include the accuracy of the tilting scale,the smoothness or ease of adjustment & clamp quality.
So at best pay attention to the design & engineering quality when making your pick for a scroll saw..
Check the side play of the arms .. if you can power up the saw look to see if the operation of the blade is a blur or a crisp vertical line.
Pay attention to the saw vibration.. some saws are very loud and must be bolted down to a heavy workbench or stand.. otherwise they will bounce all over.
Some saws will run very quietly and smoothly that you can actually balance a coin on it's edge on the table top.
The noise levels can affect you health and comfort during extended periods of saw use.. P.P.E. here is a must for your hearing!

I myself sometimes find the large table tops a disadvantage.. since i seldom use the back it any way
I find my self storing the unneeded pieces on it which get in the way when i need to swing the work.

Here is a pic of 1940 model sears craftsman scroll saw it's one of the oldest scroll saws that i have however dose not get used much.
It's a Rigid-arm model that is very heavy and made of cast and tubular overarms that are stationary.
The only visible movement is the blade going up and down on a spring loaded plunger that is located in the upper arm.
With rigid arm saws the down stroke is the power stroke and the up stoke is produced by the spring action.
Okay you are not going to find this type of scroll saw on the market today! but from time to time some one will have one to sale.
The drive system of the rigid-arm machine by virtue of its design is subject to sudden loading and unloading of the blade tension during each stroke.
In other words the tension is not consistently the same throughout the entire stroke.
If by chance the feeding pressure or saw dust clogging the upper spring does not pull the blade up after the down stroke.
The blade is too flexible as it is pushed upward by the drive system of the machine.
This situation,combined with feeding pressures places strain on the blade and the result is premature breakage to the blade.
So to prevent this from happening.. reduce stock thickness or use stiffer and wider blades..
however this will limit the sharpness of a turn that can be made and the capability of making intricate cuts in thicker material.
So in short, the disadvantages of rigid-arm saws well outweigh there advantages!
However it's a neat saw to show off here on the topic.. so i thought id show it's workings and talk about it!
I would question why one would purchase this type of machine for home or professional use.
( Why do i have one because it was free to me at the time and it was fun to tinker with and try out at the time as well!)

Next up Constant tension saws that you will find on the market today!
Constant tension saws include the C-arm/frame and the parallel-arm types for example.
Pic's of two different c-arm models:
Sorry i don't have a parallel arm with the tension control in the back for an example.
From the drawing examples above you'll see the doted lines showing the movement action of the arms and blade movement.
Throughout the stroke the blade always maintains exactly the same tension on the up stroke as it does on the down stroke.
The advantages of constant-tension saws include minimal blade breakage & the capability to cut with much thinner blades.
This allows you to make incredibly sharp turns and saw accurate,highly detailed intricate designs in thick as well thin woods.
As the blade reciprocates it enters slightly into the work on the down stroke & then backs away slightly on the upwards movement.

The cutting action of constant-tension saws is much different from the rigid arm saw. ( posted first photo.)
On the rigid arm saw the saw blade stays perfectly vertical in just one spot, moving up and down only with in its own space.
With constant-tension saws the blade generally moves slightly forward into the wood on the up stroke,or vise versa.
The blade can also have a "mixed action" movement.
The blade motion of constant-tension saws does several important things.. it helps with better saw dust removal when fine blades are used.
Which means cooler cutting & no burning of the cut since less heat is generated will stay sharp and don't brake as often.

Ok VK, if looking about hold tight i'm getting to your lifting problem!
Some of blades works against the walls or sides of the saw kerf; the results are extremely smoothly cut surfaces that need no or little sanding.
The blade "rasps" away ridges on the previously cut surface as it moves into and out of the new wood during the reciprocating movement.
Less pressure is required to hold down the work piece if the blade backs off on the up stroke, which is when the work normally tends to lift on the
rigid arm saws.

Okay time for a break as i'll be back to talk about C-arm constant-tension saws and parallel-arm tension saws.

Last edited by whodathunkit on Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

C-arm constant-tension saws.. these saws are are tensioned "up front".
This is an advantage because you don't have to reach all the way to the back of the machine where most all parallel-arm saw are tensioned.
The primary disadvantage of a c-arm saw design is the way the blade travels the blade tips backwards on the up stroke.
On some models the pivot point is more centrally located this means that when cutting the blade tips slightly more forward then vertical
at the completion of the down stroke.
The tipping in and out of the vertical plane creates some problems when sawing along sharp irregular curves in thicker wood.
It's likely that the curved cuts will not be square, or as true as when making straight line cuts in the same material and same saw.

Parallel-arm constant-tension saws.. these saws are regarded by most scroll saw authorities as being the best overall at least in design theory.
The major advantage of true parallelogram saws is that the blade remains vertical throughout the total stroke.
Although the blade moves slightly into the cut on the down ward stroke & moves slightly back on the up stroke this design seems to produce
the smoothest & truest cuts with the least blade breakage. so in any case a constant feed rate is important for smooth cuts & blade life.

Now for the parallel arm link system saw that are on the higher end models ..
sorry my drawing is not the best of this system workings or for the movement of the blade.
The cutting action of the blade is also vertical throughout the total stroke .. with less vibration in the saws movement and workings.

I hope with what iv shared in the photos above that it gives some example's of the scroll saw types to those who are unfamiliar with scroll saws.
And your probably tired of reading the babbling on.. on the types!

So let's look at an older delta saw and it's blade clamping system remember how i said some models have very hard to change blade features.
There are two types of clamping systems on scroll saws tooled and tool less.
Tooled meaning a tool is used to change blades .. tool less meaning no tools have to be used just a thumb screw or a knob.
For this model it use's reg flat blades here's a pic of the top chuck showing a tool less chuck clamping system and a tooled bottom chuck clamping system.
And now the bottom blade chuck.
And the tool that is used for changing the blade in the lower chuck.
You'll probably find the tooled clamping systems.. more so in the older scroll saws then you will in the saws offered at retail stores.
A view of where the on/off and two speed controls are located.. and the way the table tilts on this model.

Some pic's of my first Dremel 1800 scroll saw...
However as kid i started out using my fathers sears walking beam model.
On the sears walking beam model only the upper and lower arms tilted as the work table say'd flat.
Here is a link to a web site showing a lot more examples of scroll saws in the much smaller hobby size to larger saws in a large collection.
you'll also see the craftsman walking beam 18 model in the link at the very bottom of the first page.http://www.scrollsaws.com/SawCollection/SawsBench.htm

The Dremel 1800 scroll saw i bought for my self.
On the Dremel saw the controls are up front and easy to get to along with the variable speed.
The dust covers over the switches can make them hard to turn on or off.
pic's of the blade chucks first the top and then bottom for this model.. will use both styles of blades and a tool less clamping system.
In this pic you'll see the lower chuck is set back inside a cover and there is a port for a dust collector or shop vac.
Table tilt for this saw is to the left.
plus you see it also has disk sander feature if can be took off and the Dremel flex shaft installed to it as well.

And then some pic's of a Dewalt 788 model blade chucks and tool less system this model uses the reg flat blades only.
Top chuck :
Bottom chuck:
All the controls are up front as well.
table tilts left and right.

well that's all for now I'll get to the blades types soon.

Last edited by whodathunkit on Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:51 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Some examples of some scroll saw blade that I cut out larger for showing the blade types and different tooth styles.
Note: all scroll saw blades cut with the teeth pointed down!
The reverse tooth blades will have teeth that point down followed by a gap then teeth pointed up.
The top example blade shows a pin end style.. hope you can see the dowel rod used in the end for the example of this type!
The pilot hole size needed for pin end blades to pass threw is 3/16"
For the pin end blades there made in a skip tooth, reg tooth and a hook tooth.. for the tooth styles.
There will also be no uni numbers on the blade sizes.. just the teeth per inch.. for example the hook tooth style will have 7 teeth per inch.
And in the skip tooth style you'll have teeth per inch sizes ranging from 18.5, & 9/5, being a heavy duty widely-spaced set teeth for fast cutting.
In the reg tooth style 10, 15, 20, 25, teeth per inch.
From this if you count the examples given for teeth per inch.. you will see that there is only 7 blades to chose from in the pin end style blades.
So these blades are kinda short lived if your looking to really get into scroll sawing and work that has smaller detail.

Now when you get into the reg flat blade types and tooth styles seen from the 2nd blade and down in the photo example.
You'll have lots of blade choices! However in the examples i'm leaving out a two blade types examples
like the (PGT) precision ground tooth blades as they are not recommended for beginners.
And the flat end spiral blade as these are like the regular spiral blade but with flat ends..this blade type will come in two sizes
a #2 with 41 teeth per inch.. and a #4 with 36 teeth per inch these are offered for easier blade installation.

For all the rest of the blade sizes depending on the tooth styles you'll find ranges in size's from 3/0 being the smallest and 12 being the largest.
for all these blades use lower numbers for thinner stock and higher numbers for thicker stock.

Skip tooth blades will cut cold rolled steel,copper,brass,aluminum sheet and bronze. Soft metal up to 1/8'' thick in a single sheet or several thin sheets.
Cut at slower speeds though!
Reverse tooth blades will help eliminate under side tare out of the work.
Double tooth blades will cut plastic.. same for the crown tooth.
Spiral blades saw in all directions with 360* cutting capability so there is no need to turn the work piece.

Scroll sawing in general is a practice based off of user preferences on blades and techniques in cutting..
what works for someone else make not work for you for blade sizes or tooth types in your projects.
For example if you ask three people who use scroll saws what blades sizes they use in soft wood 1' thick your likely to get three different answers.

whodathunkit wrote:Some examples of some scroll saw blade that I cut out larger to showing the blade types.. and different tooth styles.
The top example blade shows a pin end style.. hope you can see the dowel rod used in the end for the example of this type!
The pilot hole size needed for pin end blades to pass threw is 3/16"
For the pin end blades there made in a skip tooth, reg tooth and a hook tooth.. for the tooth styles.
There will also be no uni numbers on the blade sizes.. just the teeth per inch.. for example the hook tooth style will have 7 teeth per inch.
And in the skip tooth style you'll have teeth per inch sizes ranging from 18.5, & 9/5, being a heavy duty widely-spaced set teeth for fast cutting.
In the reg tooth style 10, 15, 20, 25, teeth per inch.
From this if you count the examples given for teeth per inch.. you will see that there is only 7 blades to chose from in the pin end style blades.
So these blades are kinda short lived if your looking to really get into scroll sawing and work that has smaller detail.

Now when you get into the reg flat blade types and tooth styles seen from the 2nd blade and down in the photo example.
You'll have lots of blade choices! However in the examples i'm leaving out a two blade types examples
like the (PGT) precision ground tooth blades as they are not recommended for beginners.
And the flat end spiral blade as these are like the regular spiral blade but with flat ends..this blade type will come in two sizes
a #2 with 41 teeth per inch.. and a #4 with 36 teeth per inch these are offered for easier blade installation.

For all the rest of the blade sizes depending on the tooth styles you'll find ranges in size's from 3/0 being the smallest and 12 being the largest.
for all these blades use lower numbers for thinner stock and higher numbers for thicker stock.

Skip tooth blades will cut cold rolled steel,copper,brass,aluminum sheet and bronze. Soft metal up to 1/8'' thick in a single sheet or several thin sheets.
Cut at slower speeds though!
Reverse tooth blades will help eliminate under side tare out of the work.
Double tooth blades will cut plastic.. same for the crown tooth.
Spiral blades saw in all directions with 360* cutting capability so there is no need to turn the work piece.

Scroll sawing in general is a practice based off of user preferences on blades and techniques in cutting..
what works for someone else make not work for you for blade sizes or tooth types in your projects.
For example if you ask three people who use scroll saws what blades sizes they use on different size woods your likely to get three different answers.

All I can say is wow Whoda! You are an encyclopedia of scrolling knowledge. Thanks so much for this thread and your responses on the other... I haven't made it through all the details of this last post but thanks in advance.

Your welcome derbypain!
Almost forget to share a pick of some foot peddle control's.
On the left side is an on/off peddle switch..the right is a variable speed foot peddle.
I have tried to use it as variable speed feature on saws with out variable speed.. with out any luck the motor's just hum in- tell fully pressed down.

Scroll saw sold in the states will have the hold down foot. Those sold out of the country will not have them. Just a little info on the hold downs.

Some more scrolling tips I'll pass along to make it easy for blade changes!
Is some blades come in packs that are bundled & wrapped in wire .
Look at the tooth direction of the blades before unwinding the wire..
to make sure the teeth are pointed down on the blades.. and then paint the top end of the bundle .

The blade always go's in the the saw with the painted end up and the tooth direction pointed down!
Plus for a quick identification of different types or sizes.. is to use different paint colors.

Most blades with heavy usage will only last about 30 minutes before they become dull or brake.
You'll also find that some blades from the same bundle and type will seem to cut better then others do also when new.
( this is due to the stamping and how they are made!)

When your blades are stored for long periods of time they will tend to rust as well.. to prevent it a light coat of oil or WD40 will help prevent rusting.

If you are really picky about oils
and getting them on your wood work..
maybe a good wax paper to wrap them up in.