Wednesday, December 17, 2014

Standing on the Cross: Reverend Daniels versus the New Age, pt 1 of 2

Michael Daniels - Let me make this clear so I don't get into a conversation with someone and they get shocked into blocking me because their ears cannot handle the truth maintained in God's word. Jehovah, our Creator and the God of the Bible makes it clear in scripture there is only one category of sexual activity He authorizes and that is between a man and a woman in a committed marital relationship. Period!

Homosexual sex......He says no.

Adultery.................He says no.

Fornication.............He says no.

Bestialiy.................He says no.

Pedophilia..............He says no.

A husband and wife can be as freaky as they want to be within the context of their marriage as the "marriage bed is undefiled" but anything outside of that is plain and simply sin.

If you disagree with me we can discuss it, but your real argument is with God and His word, the Bible. And if you think I'm some animal for stating this and I should be shot on sight, feel free to unfriend me now and save us both the trouble. But know this, I will not unfriend you regardless of your beliefs. I'm not afraid of differing points of view.

Consuelo Garrett - You can't witness to someone who doesn't want to hear it. If you've been blocked, they don't want to hear you. " Bad associations spoil useful habits" remember? What association does darkness have with light?

Michael Daniels - You don't know if people are receptive to truth until you actually have the conversation with them. Jesus/Matthew.....Jesus/Zacchaeus....Jonah/the Ninevites

Russell Farmarco - "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment." (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Russell Farmarco - Not directly related to homosexuality but "the Bibile says it!" can be a pretty dubious guide to modern morality.

Michael Daniels - Are you open to understanding the spiritual/cultural context of this scripture, Russ? I'd be happy to explain to you why this was one of the most progressive, compassionate, and egalitarian, (and frankly shocking stances) on women's rights of its time.

Michael Gebhard - Amen 100%! I was just unfriended by somebody (you know who) for testifying and pointing out very clearly in the Holy Bible the false witness I was witnessing from him- he said the burden of proof was on me as a Christian to prove my beliefs (paraphrasing)- I shared with him there was no burden on my part and that I would freely give him the proof he wanted- he only need reread the first chapter of the book of Mark and follow the instructions as outlined and he would receive all the proof he would ever need. Jesus is about love and has never been about hate, anyone that claims to hate another in the name of Christianity is a liar, plain and simple! The crusaders that killed in the name of Christianity were misled by their leaders at that time-Christ would never have sanctioned this type of hatred. Matthew 7: 21-23 makes this very concept very plain- in fact all of Chapter 7 contains some of the best scriptures packed into a small amount of words!

Michael Daniels - The Crusades weren't even about hatred as much as they were about money and power. You're right the rank and file were misled to the point they ended up killing almost as many Middle Eastern Christians and Jew as Muslims.

Consuelo Garrett - Michael Daniels I read your other post and you did have a conversation and the person was clearly unreceptive. The Scriptures are not to debated over so I am staying out of this.

Michael Gebhard - These conversations on Facebook or other social media for example are possibly very similar to the things Jesus faced when speaking with the Pharisees and Sadducees of his time.

Michael Daniels - Or when Paul dealt with the Greek thinkers on Mars Hill in Athens (Acts 17)

Michael Gebhard - Have a good night, Michael- I feel sad that I lost one Facebook friend, but I feel good that through that lost friendship I found another more positive one!

John Crosby - Ok, here's my question; biblically are all sins equal? If they r thats a bit wonky, if not then is being gay really in the realm of pedophilia?

Abdur Rasheed - What about another chick WITH your wife??

Abdur Rasheed - What does God say about sex with your slaves?

John Crosby - If I fornicate with my lady and we aren't married yet, IMHO I don't think Im on par with a molester or serial killer.

Abdur Rasheed - That's just what a molester and a serial killer would say!

[eyes narrow]

Abdur Rasheed - What age was considered a child back then Rev Michael?

I personally don't think that the good Lord didn't give a half a damn about kids.

Otherwise he would have just killed the damn Pharaoh instead of all the first born innocent kids.

Imagine Moses gets into it with Obama so he kills Taevion.

Wait! What?

What the hell???

I'm just a humble dealer of Egyptian spices.

Why did my first born have to come up short?

This is Bullshit!

Moses' God is trippin!

Horus wouldn't have done no evil stuff like that!

Rashida Lewis - All sin are equal in Gods eyes.... What makes a person considered non redeemable are the purposeful sins that are acknowledged by the person who does them over and over again with no remorse....

Michael Daniels - John---- Rashida's right. All sin is equal in the sense that it separates the sinner from God. The smallest white lie has the same result, spiritually, as the most heinous murder. It's what one does with their sin (repent or indulge in) that will ultimately determine his or her fate. Now of course there are more immediate, physical world, consequences as well, in which the degree of sin is highly relevant. This is the "reap what you sow" dynamic. In the Mosaic Law the ancient Hebrews were instructed to follow, both homosexual activity and pedophilia would get the perpetrators stoned, whereas two unattached adults having sex would be made to get married. Keep in mind, 14 was generally considered marriageable age in that culture.

By the way whenever you and the fetching Miss Yonico are ready to tie the knot...holla at ya boy. I've always wanted to visit the Boston area.

Michael Daniels - @ Arah.....Have your fun but please be careful with the curses and disrespect of God, sir. Btw, does Nikki know how theologically interested you are in adding another chick to your marital mix?

1) The Bible never actually says how old Pharoah's firstborn was.

2) He was given ample warning this would happen and could have stopped it any time. The other plagues were more than enough proof that God meant business.

3) God does eventually end Pharoah's life at the crashing down of the Red Sea.

4) Horus was a tool of a false god that at one point required human sacrifices.

Francis Geoffroy - I am secular and tell the priests that does not interest me the guy who dare to violate one of my children would have the balls settled by their mother and me for the rest of the married or unmarried adults do what they want and I 'm care. I'm a guy and do not understand how a man can only kiss a guy then suck? but if it makes him happy is his problem not mine. fornication is not my thing only 10% of women take pleasure like that .... and try to give pleasure to a woman that yes it interested me ... in hospitals emergency it is not rare to receive people with a bottle (coca-cola often) stuck in the ass .... it is not god who punished but their own body ..... in the Gulf countries servants often Asian and Malagasy are regularly raped by their employer and are very rarely condemned by god or someone other ... es this normal? No, as explained at the beginning as the cut balls is what they deserve .....

Rashida Lewis - Abdur Rasheed the reason why the first borns bit the bullet was because they were the direct beneficiaries of the "system of things". Those children were being trained to learn and live by the horrible system. There by perpetuating slavery and idolatry. Wiping them out was the best decision that could be made. Remember start with the premise that Jehovah gave us free will. That explains half of why things happen in the world.

John Crosby - We are in planning stages just a lil. U do know u can travel without having to marry someone once you land. It's hard for me to fathom that a guy who has had sex b4 marriage once with his wife and doesn't care shares something sin-wise with a guilt ridden pedo/murderer.

Abdur Rasheed - 1a. It doesn't matter how old Pharoah's kid was because he didn't just kill Pharoah's kid but EVERY first born Egyptian kid plus the first born of the cattle.

King James Bible wrote: Exodus 12:29

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle"

2a. You can't be serious. Just turn Pharoah's blood into acid in the middle of a speech and leave everybody else's kids alone. Just and loving God.

3a. Well good! I guess some good came out of it. Plus my second kid got promoted.

4a. Some say the same about the God of the Bible, Rev.

John Crosby - Rah! I was asking certain questions um for a friend. *hides shovel*

Abdur Rasheed - Rashida Lewis wrote: "Abdur Rasheed the reason why the first borns bit the bullet was because they were the direct beneficiaries of the "system of things". Those children were being trained to learn and live by the horrible system."

Even the newborns and toddlers? I think they had time to unlearn some stuff.

Rashida Lewis wrote: "There by perpetuating slavery..."

STOP!

It wasn't slavery that Moses was protesting. It was the enslavement of the CHOSEN PEOPLE ONLY.

Slavery is 100% accepted in the Bible.

Exodus Chapter 21

20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he [is] his money.

Colossians 3:22 - Servants, obey in all things [your] masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God

Exodus Chapter 21

26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.

27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Deuteronomy 23:15 - Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee:"

Need I go on? There is a LOT more.

Rashida Lewis wrote: "and idolatry."

Like idols of men nailed on a cross?

Rashida Lewis wrote: "Wiping them out was the best decision that could be made."

You made all of endless space in all of the universe and killing all of the innocent children and cows is the "BEST DECISION THAT COULD HAVE BEEN MADE" because you were angry with ONE PHAROAH???

You sure?

Rashida Lewis wrote: "Remember start with the premise that Jehovah gave us free will. That explains half of why things happen in the world."

We're not talking about the actions of Man. We are talking about the examples of a just and loving god and his example. If indiscriminately killing all of the first born kids because of the actions of one man is ok then how evil is abortion?

Forgive me if i don't use this Book as my moral guide or care what it says about who should marry and when.

Otherwise i can use it to know that I can sell my daughters into slavery and that there is no limit on the time like when a man is sold.

King James Bible wrote: Exodus 21:7

"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

I do believe a man can be held for 7 years.

Either the WHOLE BIBLE is the word of God or none of it is.

I'll pass.

Rah

Michael Daniels - In the Hebrew culture servants were the equivalent to modern day employees. As pointed out by the scriptures you selected and many others, they had rights, could own land and marry whom they wanted, even within the family of their employer. They were not considered subhuman or chattel as was the case with slaves of other cultures of the time or with the American slavery system. It was set up so a family could get out of debt, a viable alternative to vagary.

Rashida Lewis - Abdur Rasheed: I think you made two major mistakes in your thought process.... 1. The whole bible is not the word the God. The word of God is only sprinkled throughout the bible. The other parts of the bible are stories of people. What they saw and did both bad and good. 2. Jehovah clearly stated what is good and bad. But he allowed certain things to happen because the people asked to allow it to happen. Could he have stopped Adam and Eve from eating the fruit? Yes... But it negates free will. Could he have continued to rule the Israelites directly when they asked for a human king? Absolutely. But it negates free will. He allowed things to happen but he certainly did not ask them to do it. HE TOLD US UNEQUIVOCALLY NOT TO TAKE MORE THAN ONE WIFE, NOT TO KILL, NOT TO STEAL, NOT TO LIE ON ONE ANOTHER AND MOST IMPORTANTLY "TO WORSHIP HIM EXCLUSIVELY". Everything else he stomached because he is NOT a liar and must obey his OWN word.

Michael Daniels - Arah mumbled "You made all of enless space in allof the universe and killing all of the innocent children and cows..."

What is this? I expect better of you sir!!!

Abdur Rasheed - How does one mumble when they type, Michael?

What did I miss?

Exodus 12:29

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle"

THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS, Big Fella!

"Better of ME???"

Did I make this up??

You should expect better from the Bible, Sir!

Michael Daniels wishes he didn't write: "If you disagree with me we can discuss it, but your real argument is with God and His word, the Bible."

I say good day!

Michael Daniels - "You made all of enless space in allof the universe and killing all of the innocent children and cows..."

LOL....THIS JIBBERISH, SIR!!!

Abdur Rasheed - Michael Daniels wrote: "Michael Daniels In the Hebrew culture servants were the eqivalent to modern day employees. As pointed out by the sriptures you selected and many others, they had rights, could own land and marry whom they wanted, even within the family of their employer. They were notconsidered subhuman or chattel as was the case with slaves of other cultures of the time or with the American slavery system. It was set up so a family could get out of debt, a viable alternative to vagary."

Oh. Why didn't you just say THAT in the first place?

Deuteronomy 21:10–14 .Marrying Female Captives

10 “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, 11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, 12 and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. 13 And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and flament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. 14 But if you no longer delight in her, you shall glet her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you htreat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her. "

You know what... I'll just stay in debt.

Abdur Rasheed - Michael Daniels "You made all of endless space in allof the universe and killing all of the innocent children and cows..."

LOL....THIS JIBBERISH, SIR!!!"

What's wrong with that?

She said that THAT was the BEST GOD COULD DO.

I always think of God as a bit of a big deal, but killing all the first born kids in a broad stroke of vengence is the BEST GOD COULD DO??

THAT is the jibberish, Sir.

You were probably mad at the little girl who said that the Emperor doesn't have on any clothes too, huh?

Rev Michael Daniels: "SEIZE HER!!"

Michael Daniels - Compare this to the "prisoner of war" scenarios practiced by everyone else and you'll see how compassionate it is. The shaving of the head and the tearing of the clothes was a common mourning ritual practiced by the Israelites and surrounding cultures. As weird as it seems allowing her to do this was actually according her honor.

Abdur Rasheed - Oh. Why didn't you just say THAT in the first place?

(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and THEN TAKES ANOTHER WIFE, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."

Well THAT'S WHAT'S UP!!

Michael Daniels - What you really said....."You made all of enless space in allof the universe and killing all of the innocent children and cows..."

The coverup..."You made all of endless space in allof the universe and killing all of the innocent children and cows..."

LOL

Michael Daniels - Yes, the Israelites were entering into a perpetual state of war. The male population was going to be decreased significantly because of this. So, although God's ideal for marriage was "one man one woman" he allowed for multiple marriages in order that the women (including those taken in battle) be taken care of. By the time the New Testament arrives this is no longer an issue and the one man/one woman ideal is reenforced.

Abdur Rasheed - So your complaint is with the letter "d" instead of justifying slavery, and rape?

And THERE is the problem.

I missed letter "d" and a space key was what was wrong??

Editing my text is a "cover up" as a way to say that NOW raping your slave and killing ALL of the innocent first born children and even the cows (I can assume because evil bulls whose masters refuse to let the chosen people go deserve what they get) is justified because i was typing and fat fingered around the letter "d" and a space key.

That's a good conspiracy. Preach on THAT one whenever somebody points out the the evil in the Bible.

YHGTBFSM!

Michael Daniels - It is significant to note that whenever there is more than one wife depicted in the Bible there are always bad family dynamics associated with it.

Abdur Rasheed - No it's not important to note that at all.

It IS important to note that this: "Bible makes it clear in scripture there is only one category of sexual activity He authorizes and that is between a man and a woman in a committed marital relationship. Period!"

Is a false statement.

You can't make it what you WISH it said.

Michael Daniels - Cows were the symbol of Horus, God was making a point. Actually each of the plagues corresponded to a different false god in the Egyptian pantheon. God was making it known He was real and superior to all the false gods of the Egyptians.

Michael Daniels - "It IS important to note that this: "Bible makes it clear in scripture there is only one category of sexual activity He authorizes and that is between a man and a woman in a committed marital relationship. Period!"

Is a false statement."

That scripture does not invalidate my statement. I specifically did not say monogamous marriage although that is the ideal and that is what the New Testament calls for from Christians.

Abdur Rasheed - I really enjoy watching you try and reverse engineer what it actually says.

Here we go!

Michael Daniels wrote: "Cows were the symbol of Horus, God was making a point."

Them cows better ASK SOMEBODY!!!! Also Horus symbol was a bird, but who cares about the details?

Mad at Pharoah = kill ALL the kids (babies and toddlers alike)

Mad at the Birds = kill the cows

Somebody is going to learn TODAY!

Michael wrote: "Actually each of the plagues corresponded to a different false god in the Egyptian pantheon. God was making it known He was real and superior to all the false gods of the Egyptians."

You know that Facebook now allows you to go back and edit it to say, "between A man and SOME CHICKS in a committed marital relationship as long as the chicks don't start rubbing each others naughty parts out of curiosity. Period!"

I won't call you out on it.

A missed letter "d" and a space key stroke is your "gotcha moment?"

[SMDH]

Michael Daniels - I stand corrected...Apis was the cow god...Horus was god of the sky.....God dealt with him when he brought darkness on Egypt.

Abdur Rasheed - Dealt with WHO?

The IMAGINARY EGYPTIAN GOD???

Yeah THAT aughta learn'em!

He really don't like him on the North Pole.

Michael Daniels - God established He was the true God of the sky and the false god, Horus was lifeless.

Jeremy Travis - I'm just here to read the comments.

Abdur Rasheed - AND WHAT IS THIS BOLDERDASH????

"Michael Daniels was having a mild stroke when he typed: "...Horus wa god of the sky....."

We already established that when somebody misses a key stroke on your page that they already lost the argument, Sir!

Dems the rules, Bruh!

1. Don't cuss.

2. No key stroke misses.

3. Ignore most of the Bible except the parts that sound good after you read them out loud.

4. Slaver can be pretty cool in a pinch. Like high student loans and stuff.

Hannibal Tabu - The whole argument hinges on belief. I do not believe that the bible is the word of god, I do not believe that the god of the bible is any god I need to bother recognizing (despite, or perhaps because I grew up Baptist), so we are at an ideological impasse at the start.

I don't believe you are wrong. You believe that you are correct, and within the parameters of your faith and your ideology, it is a virtually unassailable position. That's fine.

Personally, I don't give two farts in a stiff wind what any two (or three or more) consulting adults do as long as they're out of my immediate way when I'm driving somewhere. My belief system is extraordinarily forgiving and focused largely on personal responsibility, what I am doing.

However, glancing up, I do now notice some mentions of terms from my spiritual system, so I will go read more closely to see what that's all about.

Hannibal Tabu - All right.

I have studied Rek Ha Khameti, the spiritual practice of the ancient Egyptians, since 1992. I have seen zero pieces of empirical, non faith based evidence that Heru (Horus is a Greek word) had any rituals involving human sacrifice. If someone has hard, fact based evidence otherwise, please present it.

Second, there is no empirical evidence (no bodies, no recorded records, nothing) that the biblical plagues happened in what is now called Egypt. As a matter of fact (and fact is where I live) the only large non-native populace ever noted in the actual record of carbon dating and what have you were the Hyksos of the 13th through 18th dynasties, a Semetic people from the north who invaded, murdered, enslaved and were cast out by a resurgent native monarchy leading a popular revolt. The whole "dead first born" thing is a fascinating, engaging story, but not history and surely not fact. I will admit that I have no problem with people *believing* this is true, because belief is a personal thing that often has little to do with reality.

The goddess who was symbolized by cows, by the way, was Het Heru (Hathor to those following the Greek names), the goddess of love and fertility who was the origin for both Hera and Aphrodite.

If people want to use religious grounds as a beef against whatever they don't like, fine. That's none of my business, as I have zero interest in faith based arguments.

When people want to talk about ancient Egypt based on some fables and not facts, well, there I draw a line of sorts.

Hannibal Tabu - I also don't drop microphones, because as an experienced sound man, I know how delicate and expensive the equipment is.

Hannibal Tabu - One last note: as a child, I had a concern reconciling the wrathfully Old Testament god with the messages of forgiveness in the new. My pastor said that the coming of the messiah changed the rules, and that all previous messages were superceded by forgiveness and love.

"Why not chuck the Old Testament, then?" I asked, nine years old and having already read the entire book three times, cover to cover, as Memphis was extraordinarily boring in the 1980s.

He told me the commandments still stood and the lessons of where the tradition came from were good to know. As I still believed at that point, I accepted his perspective. I don't know if it's still considered current, that love and forgiveness are all that matter, but that's part of why I am not a Christian anyway.

Michael Daniels - @Brother Hannibal...I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage because I don't have my library at my disposal at the moment, for a bibliography and attribution. And alas I do not have a photographic memory (grrrrr) but I know I've encountered the Horus/Human Sacrifice connection in my readings.....And it's perfectly fine if you challenge the historicity of the Bible as long as you acknowledge there is just as much faith based belief in your position as there is in mine...The Egyptians notoriously did not record their own defeats so it's not hard to believe this dark stain in their history was glossed over and ultimately forgotten. The ancient Hebrews, beginning with Moses did commit both their defeats and triumphs to scroll. The Bible contains the spirit preserved portion of that historical record.

I could give you a long list of Rabbinical, Christian, and secular scholars, each with a bunch of letters behind their names that hold the same view of the historicity of the Bible as I do. I'm not on that list at this point but some day I intend to be. My cousin who teaches ancient linguistics at Oxford and did his doctoral thesis on the dating of the Books of Jeremiah and Lamentations is indeed on that list.

Michael Daniels - It's the same God, with the same qualities throughout the Bible. Creation itself was a tremendous act of love. Protecting His servants under amidst overwhelming circumstances. The Old Testament is about preserving the line of succession leading up to the Messiah and God's plan of Salvation laid out right up front in Genesis.... The New Testament is that plan coming into fruition and still God protecting and strengthening His servants as His church coalesces. There is wrath in the New Testament as well...Look at the situation with Ananias and Saphira...Look at the prophecies of Matthew 24 and Revelation. God has a plan for mankind, it's clear in the entirety of the Biblical text. It's also clear that those who reject His plan are voluntarily consigning themselves to a hellish existence.

Michael Daniels - "The New one was written AFTER Jesus died."

You're missing a couple components here, Bruh. It should read....after Jesus died, rose again, and commissioned Paul and His other disciples to spread the news of His Kingdom far and wide.

Abdur Rasheed - Talk about a leap of faith.

I can't jump THAT far Rev, but ok.

Ryan M. Ruth - Wow I feel like I shouldn't even be in this convo lol the battle between Christianity and Islam is a never ending one....or should I say the battle of religion!!!! Since when did homosexuality become 'the thing to do'? Why has it become an epidemic all of a sudden? I'm wit Mike D in this....Gay = Sin......period.....nothin sexy about men kissin each other and all dat sick sh*t.....I don't want my kids seein dat sh*t on tv or in public.....it's out of control.....if ur a man then conduct yourself as such so the young men out here have a positive influence to look up to....there is something really wrong wit our society today.....tv is a major part of it and with no real leaders/fathers to tell them different, they feed into it and run wit it and believe it and live it!!!! It's sad and I don't see it gettin any better!!!!

Abdur Rasheed - I'm pretty sure that seeing gay people interact or show affection DOESN'T make you GAY, Ryan.

You are attracted to what you are attracted to. It's either in you or it isn't.

I have NOTHING against Asian women. I'm just NOT attracted to them sexually.

Some of them are VERY pretty, but they just don't do it for me in that way.

NO AMOUNT of Asian strippers (and BELIEVE ME THIS MARINE HAS SEEN ALL OF OUR SHARES) is going to do it for me.

Now thick types of damn near every other ethnic group...Don't get me started.

If it's a choice then I can just CHOOSE to be attracted to Asian women. It doesn't work that way.

Rah

Hannibal Tabu - "Acknowledge there is just as much faith based belief in your position as there is in mine." I'm sorry, I can't do that, in that my positions are ... 1: I don't care what your faith says, what people who believe in your tradition say or what the text of your faith says, but I respect that you do, 2: I don't have a single whit of evidence to support your suppositions about what did or did not happen in ancient Egypt, and I call shenanigans on yours until I see some, with properly vetted sources and what not and 3: I like to have three points, but I don't, so this point doesn't exist, kind of like fairness in criminal justice.

Hannibal Tabu - "The Egyptians notoriously did not record their defeats." On the contrary. When the sea kings (Hyksos) invaded and conquered, that was recorded in extraordinary detail, not just by the Kemites but by their neighbors. Again, if you have contradictory, fact-based evidence to the contrary, please present. Most of my "position" is saying "I'm sorry, what?" To stuff you say about our ancestral forebears.

Abdur Rasheed - "Gay is a sin."

True but so is being born sooooo...

[shrugs]

BTW is being conceived a sin?

Hannibal Tabu - i will skip past any accuracy nitpicks of the ... how did you say it? The "spirit preserved portion of their historical record," because that sounds like an argument leading to faith and not fact, which in have zero interest in. I will say that my 9YO perception made perfect sense to a doctor of divinity and from my understanding I got an answer he'd given many times before to others. I can't hypothesize his thoughts there and again don't care, I'm just reporting some of how your position is being represented in an admittedly small data sample.

Hannibal Tabu - I'm not missing components, again, I don't care about those components. I don't care about virtually anything in a faith based document. I do, however, care to clear up misconceptions, as was Anwar Sadat when he corrected news commentators in 1977 on the idea that Jews had ever been slaves in Egypt.

Hannibal Tabu - Sorry, missed a slot. Even when the Egyptians did try to alter the historical record -- "Tutankhamen" and "Hatshepsut" for two Greek named figures -- they were notoriously bad at cover ups, with not only surrounding nations having records that revealed the facts but trusting sand to cover stuff up not foreseeing a day when people of the future would develop the technology of shovels. So, yeah, calling shenanigans again, sir.

Hannibal Tabu - Another reason I am staying on the fact check side of this is that Abdur is doing such a phenomenal job on every other corner of the debate that I'm not needed on any of that.

Abdur Rasheed - I want to argue with this Hannibal guy just to practice, but this man is just so damn wise...I got nothing.

Well said!

One more of those and you will replace Tril as a stooge.

Jeremy, Stanley, Aminah

This Man is going places. I got an eye for this sorta thing. You just can't teach that kind of wisdom.

Hannibal Tabu - *Hannibal blushes and bows with a flourish*

Kari Woods - Ooohhh... You went in today. You must of been feelin some kinda way. I'm getting ready to kick my feet up and read all these "previous comments". Love the stand for righteousness!

Kari Woods - Michael Daniels, great apologetic's shown!

Michael Daniels - Kari Woods.....Part apologetics part goofing on some very ethically challenged friends of mine.

No. There is one unforgivable sin, and He told the believers that if they but eschew the major sins (the 10), He would blanket forgive the lesser ones.

Abdur Rasheed - Abdur wrote: "The New one was written AFTER Jesus died."

Michael Daniels wrote: "You're missing a couple components here, Bruh. It should read....after Jesus died, rose again, and commissioned Paul and His other disciples to spread the news of His Kingdom far and wide."

That's almost perfect. Let me help....

It SHOULD READ: "....after Jesus died, rose again, and commissioned HIS ENEMY Paul and His Hommies along with a few words from a few of his disciples and two words from his brothers to spread the news of His Kingdom far and wide according to the ENEMY of Jesus. If you are going to take the WORD from the ememy of Jesus about what happened when he had the "magical" vision when nobody else was around, but apparently jesus wasn't powerful enough to muster up a SECOND and THIRD vision for his two little brothers to tell them things that Jesus NEVER said while he was with his brothers in real life."

James and Jude (The BROTHER'S of Jesus) wrote a TOTAL of 6 chapters in Paul's New Testament.

133 verses TOTAL between the two of them.

Paul (the enemy of Jesus) and his buddies Mark and Luke wrote 187 chapters and a TOTAL of 4,867 verses in his New Testament teaching things that Jesus NEVER said when he was alive.

So the ENEMY of Jesus who's job was to hunt Jesus and his followers down and torture them said that AFTER JESUS was killed he was walking in the woods and Jesus came to him in a blinding vision and inspired him to write 187 chapters which included 4,867 verses that Jesus never said when he was alive and and Jesus never came to his own brother's and Paul put 6 chaptersof theirs in the Holy Book he was writing YOU said, "That makes sense to me."

Ok

http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/NT-Statistics-Greek.htm

http://godisforus.com/information/bible/ntdocs/authors.htm

Abdur Rasheed - http://www.biblepath.com/paul.html

Michael Daniels - Okay, I have a little time so let's see how much of the misinformation presented here I can counteract.

@Arah... It seems as the the essence of your statement is that Paul (with Luke and Mark under his thumb) taught something different than Jesus or the other New Testament writers, James and Jude...though you seem to conveniently forget Matthew and two of Jesus closest friends, John and Peter. It's hard for me to refute this if I don't know which teachings you're referring to. Could you help me out with that, Bruh?

As you research on the internet to figure out what you really mean, keep these Biblical facts in mind.

Paul didn't write books or a book. He wrote letters to encourage and help out congregations he'd previously helped establish. They became established canon long after Paul's death.

Mark was clearly not under Paul's thumb. In fact he and Paul didn't get along all that well stemming from an incident that occurred early in Paul's ministry. Mark is much more closely associated with Peter and it is most likely Peter's influence that is asserted in the Gospel of Mark.

James was not chosen as one of the original 12 apostles and church history says he didn't accept Jesus as Messiah until after he received his own visit from the resurrected Jesus.

Paul submitted to James early on as the leader of the church of Jerusalem, but later saw him as an equal elder.

Both Paul and James died for the cause of Christ.

Hope this helps as you scour the internet in search of fringe "Christians" that disagree with me.

Russell Farmarco - If God is perfect why did it take him two testaments to get it right? And if He created us, couldn't he just give us one book that everyone would understand in the same manner instead of the countless Christian and Jewish sects? Why did/does He create folks who live in parts of the world where they can never hear His word and then condemn them to a life of eternals damnation and torture?

Michael Daniels - "If God is perfect why did it take him two testaments to get it right?"

God communicated with man over a long period of time about his plan for man's salvation. The Old Testament is about preserving the line of succession leading up to the Messiah and God's plan of Salvation laid out right up front in Genesis.... The New Testament is that plan coming into fruition and still God protecting and strengthening His servants as His church coalesces. The only thing that separates the message is the coming of Christ similar to how our Gregorian dating system is set up.

Russell Farmarco - So why not just make a creature who could understand you instantly if He is perfect and all powerful? Why all the need for mystery and cloak and agedness? Why make science disprove your existence more and more as time wears on?

Michael Daniels - "And if He created us, couldn't he just give us one book that everyone would understand in the same manner instead of the countless Christian and Jewish sects?"

He gave us his Word and He gave us free will to do with it what we want. I take the position that with the exception of a few passages of prophetic symbolism the Bible is pretty basic and straightforward.

"Why did/does He create folks who live in parts of the world where they can never hear His word and then condemn them to a life of eternals damnation and torture?"

I don't personally believe that is the case and it's not what the Bible teaches. People are only held accountable to God's word insomuch as they know and understand God's word. He is not an unjust God. But He gave us things such as nature and a conscience that guide us even in the absence of written doctrine. The unforgivable sin that Muhammed spoke of is denying the knowledge of God one does have up to the point of death. There is no sacrifice left for that person.

Michael Daniels - "So why not just make a creature who could understand you instantly if He is perfect and all powerful?"

Yeah, He did. He used to walk with him and talk with him every day. Unfortunately, that guy and His wife (Adam and Eve) used their fee will to rebel against God and thus sin entered into the world through them and their children. The Bible and Christianity is about getting back to that status where we can connect directly with a perfect and pure God.

"Why all the need for mystery and cloak and agedness?"

It seems to us like it's taking forever but to God this is all happening in the blink of an eye. But the time serves an important purpose for the rest of eternity. Man has proven that no matter what he does God knows more and is a better leader. After all is said and done the point of God's sovereignty will be proved and free will, will never lead to sin again.

Michael Daniels - "Why make science disprove your existence more and more as time wears on?"

You really believe that is the case? I would have to vehemently disagree. I think observable science lines up perfectly with Scripture, and a lot of very credible scientists would agree with me. Now Scripture does not always line up with the biases or conjecture of scientists. When the evidence could be interpreted one way or another most scientist will immediately gravitate to an explanation that does not include God. I've taken a few science classes (geology, geography, and sociology) over the past year and I was fully expecting my faith to be challenged. On the contrary much of what I learned served to strengthen my faith as I looked at the laws I learned with the perception that every law has a Lawmaker.

Andre Owens - And who created the Lawmaker?

Michael Daniels - Who created an eternal Spirit? Based on the available information He has always existed. His name means I Am.

Andre Owens - Sounds like the best answer you can give.

Abdur Rasheed - Michael wrote: "Okay, I have a little time so let's see how much of the misinformation presented here I can counteract."

Misinformation?

Word?

Michael wrote: "@Arah... It seems as the the essence of your statement is that Paul (with Luke and Mark under his thumb) taught something different than Jesus or the other New Testament writers..."

"Other???"

Jesus was NOT a New Testament writer. There is NO book of Jesus in the Bible. I'm a little surprised that I had to tell you that REV?

So based on this you have no idea what Jesus actually taught.

The best guess is that because Jesus was a Jew that he taught out of the OLD testament where of course there is no mention of the divinity of Jesus and only speaks of the one God of Abraham.

The other authors of the New Testament or the homies of Jesus as I call them talked about Jesus being a big deal like any other prophet but not God.

They didn't testify about this mystery "vision" like Paul did AFTER JESUS DIED.

Michael wrote: "As you research on the internet to figure out what you really mean, keep these Biblical facts in mind."

Oxymoron

Michael wrote: "Paul didn't write books or a book. He wrote letters to encourage and help out congregations he'd previously helped establish. They became established canon long after Paul's death."

In related news: A pound of Jensen Tea in China is 1.03 yen.

Rah

Michael Daniels - "Other" as in other New Testament writers other than Paul. You don't get misconstrue what I type (intentionally or otherwise) and then argue against that. Im not Kirb but I do know a sraw man when I see one. The deity of Christ is your problem . One God who reveals Himself in three primary ways? That's pretty much all over the Bible including James and Jude. Word!!!!

The modern ideal that slavery is fundamentally immoral was birthed from the ideologically contradictory American “peculiar institution” of chattel slavery within the “Land of the Free.” The centuries long debates against it eventually decided that slavery should be done away with altogether as a fundamental wrong in and of itself. This is a construct of modern western sensibilities and is not a universal truth. The scriptures treat the slave as just another socio-economic class, and like the other lower classes, expressed rules for how a moral and righteous person is supposed to treat them. The “slave” is certainly an undesirable state to find oneself in just like being “poor,” with both being worthy of striving to personally overcome, but it is not an “immoral” state. Immorality comes from those who treat those classes poorly.

To be honest, in a belief system in which there is not only an afterlife but includes the concept that people who have not yet reached the age of discretion will go to paradise by default, kids dying isn’t a big deal for them, but for the grieving living they leave behind.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “Otherwise he would have just killed the damn Pharaoh instead of all the first born innocent kids.”

This wasn’t just the children, this was EVERY first-born sibling, including the Pharoah’s first born who sat on the throne at the time.

lol This wasn’t inconsistent with the regular message. Remember the children of Israel were given specific instruction as to how the death specter would pass over their houses on that night. If the people of pharaoh had only believed, they too would have enjoyed that mercy. That was a microcosmic allegory of the big picture game of God’s relationship to mankind in a smaller lesson. It was only their disbelief that doomed them as God’s instructions were clear: "Reject Me and know only grief; believe in Me and know My mercy.”

Francis Geoffroy wrote: “…in the Gulf countries servants often Asian and Malagasy are regularly raped by their employer and are very rarely condemned by god or someone other ... es this normal?”

The scriptures say that anything is fair game between a husband and his wife, and between the husband and his household’s servants. This has been regular practice for thousands of years now and is realistically quite “normal.” I would suggest that because of the wide-spread practice of this tradition and for how long it’s been going on, that it’s the scant few societies who don’t do it that are actually the abby normal.

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: “ 1a. It doesn't matter how old Pharoah's kid was because he didn't just kill Pharoah's kid but EVERY first born Egyptian kid plus the first born of the cattle.”

The nature of the spell that the children of Israel used to protect themselves from the horrifying event (wipe a blood symbol upon their doors) suggests that the death specter functioned like a single-minded and simple computer program and would do only precisely as it was commanded and nothing more, like the T-800 Mark I model Terminator:

The Holy Qur’an 66:6

6. O ye who believe! Save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones, over which are appointed angels stern and severe, who flinch not from executing the Commands they receive from Allah, but do precisely what they are commanded.

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed quoted: “King James Bible wrote: Exodus 21:7 – ‘And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.’”

Go out of what I wonder? Go out of the house? Or be able to be set free? The rest of the verses sounds like she is to be treated like a wife, who in that society, would be considered damaged goods as a divorcee, with a severely low status possibly lower than “slave.” She would not have the power and freedom that a guy would have once he was set free, and would be vulnerable. The verse’s restriction doesn’t sound like it is against her, but is doing her a favor by giving her the choice to be under the covering of a wife, which is a great honor in that culture.

Muhammad Rasheed - Michael Daniels wrote: <“Abdur wrote: "You made all of enless space in allof the universe and killing all of the innocent children and cows..."> LOL....THIS JIBBERISH, SIR!!!”

This wasn’t a slight against the bible, it was a slight against Rashida’s response regarding “it was the best that it could do.”

Muhammad Rasheed - Michael Daniels wrote: "Cows were the symbol of Horus, God was making a point. Actually each of the plagues corresponded to a different false god in the Egyptian pantheon. God was making it known He was real and superior to all the false gods of the Egyptians."

What?

Muhammad Rasheed - Hannibal Tabu wrote: “I have seen zero pieces of empirical, non faith based evidence that Heru (Horus is a Greek word) had any rituals involving human sacrifice. If someone has hard, fact based evidence otherwise, please present it. Second, there is no empirical evidence (no bodies, no recorded records, nothing) that the biblical plagues happened in what is now called Egypt.”

The tricky part is that it’s difficult to make definitive statements of fact regarding what happened in the past considering the body of compiled, confirmed known facts is based on what is found from meticulously digging and piecing together shards of material and cryptic data. If there is oral and/or written literature expressing something happened in the distant past that the compiled bucket of facts cannot yet confirm, it is not reasonable to definitively conclude that the event in question was a fiction. Such a statement would be significantly premature. There was a LOT of history that took place in that part of the world over a very long period of time. Realistically more data has been crushed never to become known than what will ever be fully unearthed, and what is yet to be known will take time to recover and analyze. It is a game of time and very patient hard work. Making definitive statements that something that is known in cultural memory will never be found is not intellectually sound. I have a problem with folk treating the currently known facts of history as the ONLY history. That is not science. If you know that there is more in the ground for archeologists to dig up, then why would you treat currently known historical history as set in stone? An actual scientist/scholar doesn’t behave that way.

Muhammad Rasheed - Michael Daniels wrote: “The Egyptians notoriously did not record their own defeats so it's not hard to believe this dark stain in their history was glossed over and ultimately forgotten.”

Is this true? If so I would think Hannibal would be aware of this considering his stated expertise.

Muhammad Rasheed - Ryan M. Ruth wrote: "Wow I feel like I shouldn't even be in this convo lol the battle between Christianity and Islam is a never ending one..."

At that point in the conversation it was by no means a "Christianity versus Islam" battle.

Islam takes the exact same stance regarding homosexual acts as Christianity does. The activity is called by God "sinful."

Muhammad Rasheed - Hannibal Tabu wrote: “I don't have a single whit of evidence to support your suppositions about what did or did not happen in ancient Egypt, and I call shenanigans on yours until I see some…”

So you’re going to condemn it as a fiction until proof surfaces? Is that the stance of a scholar? Perhaps it is best to simply say “measurable, tangible facts are not yet available at this time, so I do not know whether it is true or not.”

The picture on the puzzle box is the cultural memory of the event, while the ten trillion puzzle pieces in the box – some which have been lost forever – represent the physical data remnants of the event. Does it make sense to say that the picture on the box cover is a fiction, while the painfully incomplete puzzle, with it’s laughable theories as to what that incomplete picture actually means, is the whole truth to be held up above the cultural memory? That is a faith-based stance and is not science.

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: "'Gay is a sin.' True but so is being born sooooo...”

Being “gay” is not a sin. It just represents the temptations that we are warned to flee from. Giving into those temptations and performing a “gay act” is the sin.

Muhammad Rasheed - Hannibal Tabu wrote: “I don't care about virtually anything in a faith based document. I do, however, care to clear up misconceptions, as was Anwar Sadat when he corrected news commentators in 1977 on the idea that Jews had ever been slaves in Egypt.”

How would he know? If an ancient scribed document, that records the cultural memory of a people describing an event that happened to them says XYZ, what did Sadat present that proved otherwise? What was available in 1977 for him to definitively correct someone with a “BOOM! See?!”

Hannibal Tabu wrote: “I find the concepts of "right" and "wrong" held so dear by so many as rather precious and adorable.”

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “I think they are fuctarded.”

Wait… what are we arguing against here? The concept of morality? Why?

Or do you disagree with cherry-picked modern conservative morality as defined in the Law of Moses?

Muhammad Rasheed - Russell Farmarco wrote: “If God is perfect why did it take him two testaments to get it right?”

To get what right? The message is consistent throughout scripture: Believe in God, reject evil, do good. That never changed and was preached from Adam to Muhammad.

Russell Farmarco wrote: “And if He created us, couldn't he just give us one book that everyone would understand in the same manner instead of the countless Christian and Jewish sects?”

There is just one book, with multiple components revealed for the special cultural needs of specific peoples. They all received the same message: Believe in God, reject evil, do good. The varying sects came about over the disagreements between men and were political in origin.

Russell Farmarco wrote: “Why did/does He create folks who live in parts of the world where they can never hear His word and then condemn them to a life of eternals damnation and torture?”

God said that He rose up a messenger from among all peoples; everyone had a chance to hear His message. Some He told us about in Scripture, most He did not. Everyone has incorporated that message into the fabric of their culture, which is the usual practice, and they know what is required of them. On the Last Day they will not be wronged.

Muhammad Rasheed - Russell Farmarco wrote: “So why not just make a creature who could understand you instantly if He is perfect and all powerful?”

Is a non-perfect and significantly less powerful creature questioning the plan of a perfect and all powerful being? Would you honestly expect to understand such a being’s reasons if they were available or are you just practicing your typing skills?

Russell Farmarco wrote: “Why all the need for mystery and cloak and agedness?”

Because ‘faith’ is the activating principle that enables us to take part in the promise of this perfect all powerful being per the rules He has set in motion.

Russell Farmarco wrote: “Why make science disprove your existence more and more as time wears on?”

And where has this taken place?

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: “And who created the Lawmaker?

Michael Daniels wrote: “Who created an eternal Spirit? Based on the available information He has always existed. His name means I Am.

Andre Owens wrote: “Sounds like the best answer you can give.

Everything that we know about God came from what He Himself decided to reveal to us. He said He is The Eternal, the Self-Sufficient. That He always was, and will always be, and that He is truly unique in all of existence. Deacon’s answer was exactly right.

It's not his job to make them accept the message, just to give it to them. Jesus preached, and only a total of 15 people believed during his mission. With Noah it was less than that. The messenger's only duty is to give the Good News to those who love God and love doing good, and to warn those who love sowing mischief. What the receiver does with the message is only on them.

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About Me

M. Rasheed is an independent Black American scholar, PMP®, and graphic novel serialist. He is the author of two, 10-titled, graphic novel series, TALES OF SINANJU: THE DESTROYER, and the award-winning MONSTERS 101. M. Rasheed is the founder of the #BlackActionAgenda initiative.