Unfortunately for many that don't belief, their minds are wide open and their hearts are completely shut. They have vast knowledge and at the same time understand nothing. You can't experience God unless you can truly open your heart, but that idea falls on deaf ears. It's ignored completely and dismissed completely as fluff or nothingness or silliness and it's the crux of the matter. Dawkins doesn't get it. Hitchens doesn't get it. Dillahunty doesn't get it and unfortunately many others on this board don't get it either. Oh sure, they comprehend the words, but nothing beyond that. Open your heart completely to him with no reservations and a genuine desire to find him and see if he doesn't answer. Refuse to do this and you won't get it.

I have read bits and pieces of this thread. I think the issue is bigger than people realise. I think at this point in human inquiry it is dangerous to take a stance on one side of the other. The best we can assume is that we are getting clother to the truth. If humans do ultimately learn the origins of everything, we will also learn why we didnt know for so long. I think the average human has trouble sitting in the open space of not knowing, they are afraid of the energy that lies in that space so they grasp for an answer to relieve the human suffering within them.

I think the average human has trouble sitting in the open space of not knowing, they are afraid of the energy that lies in that space so they grasp for an answer to relieve the human suffering within them.

On the flipside you could postulate that there are average humans that refuse to recognize God in order to somehow avoid his inevitable accountability and judgement. Dismiss God, dismiss his commands, live however you want and then cease to exist. Further one could suggest that the generalized positions of "God is a fairytale" and "I determine my own destiny" are nothing more than avoidance tactics. Articulate well enough and rationalize away God via philosophical standpoints or adhere to a cosmological, metaphysical position that the universe is uncaused but brought about by quantum fluctuations with the understanding that "we just ain't found the answer yet" does the the same thing in the opposite. Nonbelievers then say "but we have peer-reviewed evidence to support our position". Believers say "but we have personal relationships and transcendent experiences with God to support our position" (certainly this just represents the personal evidence for God). Your position says believers cope with the fear of inevitable death and suffering by inventing God (I find a bit of irony in the nonbelievers' notion that the invented God needed to cope with death and suffering is a cruel, malicious, tyrannical God that is also stated to have created the same suffering he was meant to snuff out). While what I present here suggests that nonbelievers cope with the fear of God's law and judgement by dismissing him altogether. Essentially, believers wish God into existence and nonbelievers wish God out of existence. Since the believers' position purports a supernatural position it's immediately dismissed because it's outside the scope of human comprehension and widely accepted scientific principles......and that (from the nonbelievers perspective) simply can't be.

I have read bits and pieces of this thread. I think the issue is bigger than people realise. I think at this point in human inquiry it is dangerous to take a stance on one side of the other. The best we can assume is that we are getting clother to the truth. If humans do ultimately learn the origins of everything, we will also learn why we didnt know for so long. I think the average human has trouble sitting in the open space of not knowing, they are afraid of the energy that lies in that space so they grasp for an answer to relieve the human suffering within them.

this read like a person with happy puppet syndrome wrote it while on shrooms.

On the flipside you could postulate that there are average humans that refuse to recognize God in order to somehow avoid his inevitable accountability and judgement. Dismiss God, dismiss his commands, live however you want and then cease to exist. Further one could suggest that the generalized positions of "God is a fairytale" and "I determine my own destiny" are nothing more than avoidance tactics. Articulate well enough and rationalize away God via philosophical standpoints or adhere to a cosmological, metaphysical position that the universe is uncaused but brought about by quantum fluctuations with the understanding that "we just ain't found the answer yet" does the the same thing in the opposite. Nonbelievers then say "but we have peer-reviewed evidence to support our position". Believers say "but we have personal relationships and transcendent experiences with God to support our position" (certainly this just represents the personal evidence for God). Your position says believers cope with the fear of inevitable death and suffering by inventing God (I find a bit of irony in the nonbelievers' notion that the invented God needed to cope with death and suffering is a cruel, malicious, tyrannical God that is also stated to have created the same suffering he was meant to snuff out). While what I present here suggests that nonbelievers cope with the fear of God's law and judgement by dismissing him altogether. Essentially, believers wish God into existence and nonbelievers wish God out of existence. Since the believers' position purports a supernatural position it's immediately dismissed because it's outside the scope of human comprehension and widely accepted scientific principles......and that (from the nonbelievers perspective) simply can't be.

how can anyone use a supernatural explanation for the natural, you can know nothing about it anyway so whats the point of invoking it? It could be a tooth fairy, it could be a green monster all are just as likely since none of them have any evidence for there existence, nor could there ever be any if they are supernatural. This type of thinking inhibits rational inquisition and thought, it claims that the answer has already been discovered and that we can't understand it anyway, its a sad way to go through life.

how can anyone use a supernatural explanation for the natural, you can know nothing about it anyway so whats the point of invoking it? It could be a tooth fairy, it could be a green monster all are just as likely since none of them have any evidence for there existence, nor could there ever be any if they are supernatural. This type of thinking inhibits rational inquisition and thought, it claims that the answer has already been discovered and that we can't understand it anyway, its a sad way to go through life.

EITHER THERE IS NO ANSWER, OR THE ANSWER IS GOD. IN EITHER SITUATION, WE ARE UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND. THESE ARE FACTS AND UNDEBATABLE.

how can anyone use a supernatural explanation for the natural, you can know nothing about it anyway so whats the point of invoking it? It could be a tooth fairy, it could be a green monster all are just as likely since none of them have any evidence for there existence, nor could there ever be any if they are supernatural. This type of thinking inhibits rational inquisition and thought, it claims that the answer has already been discovered and that we can't understand it anyway, its a sad way to go through life.

The proof for God lies in a humble heart that genuinely and honestly wants to know him. Dismiss this and you won't ever experience the reality of God.

The proof for God lies in a humble heart that genuinely and honestly wants to know him. Dismiss this and you won't ever experience the reality of God.

More meaningless nonsense... How does a heart - an organ for pumping blood - get to "know" anything? See, that's the problem with taking words and using them completely out of context. You end up using words and saying nothing.

And let's not even get started with the irony that your monumental proof of god - whatever it is supposed to be - starts out with me having to accept the very premise you supposedly set out to prove. You are basically saying "I will prove god exists. First, you must believe in god. Q.E.D.!" Sorry to break it to to but logic and proofs don't work that way.

More meaningless nonsense... How does a heart - an organ for pumping blood - get to "know" anything? See, that's the problem with taking words and using them completely out of context. You end up using words and saying nothing.

And let's not even get started with the irony that your monumental proof of god - whatever it is supposed to be - starts out with me having to accept the very premise you supposedly set out to prove. You are basically saying "I will prove god exists. First, you must believe in god. Q.E.D.!" Sorry to break it to to but logic and proofs don't work that way.

You said that god (whatever that is) lies (somehow) in the heart and that the heart (somehow) has to want to know him and must be humble (what?)

I have three questions: WHAT? HOW? HUH?

Take your arguements directly to him, honestly and earnestly, and see if he doesn't answer you. You believe it's all nonsense...cool. Wanna really stick it to believers? Then come at God head on like I said and see whether or not he reveals himself to you. Don't try to reason him away, come right at him.

Take your arguements directly to him, honestly and earnestly, and see if he doesn't answer you. You believe it's all nonsense...cool. Wanna really stick it to believers? Then come at God head on like I said and see whether or not he reveals himself to you. Don't try to reason him away, come right at him.

I don't care about "sticking it to believers" at all; people can believe in whatever they want, provided they don't try to cram their belief down my throat or to enforce it on society at large.

As for "taking it directly to him" I'm sorry to disappoint, but I don't talk to figments of someone's imagination.

And as for not trying to reason things - I'm, again, sorry to disappoint; reason is the tool humans have for acquiring knowledge. It's not one of the tools. It's the tool. You will understand why I won't just set it aside.

If you have a logically sound and consistent definition of "God" then we can start there and discuss the matter further. Don't tell me nonsense like "have a humble heart" and "don't try to reason, come to him."

I don't care about "sticking it to believers" at all; people can believe in whatever they want, provided they don't try to cram their belief down my throat or to enforce it on society at large.

As for "taking it directly to him" I'm sorry to disappoint, but I don't talk to figments of someone's imagination.

And as for not trying to reason things - I'm, again, sorry to disappoint; reason is the tool humans have for acquiring knowledge. It's not one of the tools. It's the tool. You will understand why I won't just set it aside.

If you have a logically sound and consistent definition of "God" then we can start there and discuss the matter further. Don't tell me nonsense like "have a humble heart" and "don't try to reason, come to him."

Unfortunately I coulda typed your response for you and I don't mean that as an insult either....I've encountered many similar situations time and again so I'm becoming more versed in the flow of the conversation. FYI ~ the God I'm referring to is the one true God.....the God of Christians around the world God......the creator of the heavens and earth.....the holy trinity in father, son and spirit....our risen Lord and savior.....the lamb worthy to be slain....the alpha and omega.......Jesus Christ......Yeshua....the prince of peace.....the kings of kings..... All I desire for others that don't know him is to know his love and receive his gift of salvation. If you find all that to be nonsense that's ok, but I'm happy to share with you what I've experienced and what I believe.....if you don't want me to I won't. Have a good evening.

Unfortunately I coulda typed your response for you and I don't mean that as an insult either....I've encountered many similar situations time and again so I'm becoming more versed in the flow of the conversation. FYI ~ the God I'm referring to is the one true God.....the God of Christians around the world God......the creator of the heavens and earth.....the holy trinity in father, son and spirit....our risen Lord and savior.....the lamb worthy to be slain....the alpha and omega.......Jesus Christ......Yeshua....the prince of peace.....the kings of kings..... All I desire for others that don't know him is to know his love and receive his gift of salvation. If you find all that to be nonsense that's ok, but I'm happy to share with you what I've experienced and what I believe.....if you don't want me to I won't. Have a good evening.

I, too, could have written your response for you; this isn't my first rodeo either.

Discussing/debating the subject - vigorously - is perfectly fine with me and if you want to have such a discussion or debate, then by all means, let's roll! But, I will let you know up front, that I will challenge you and your beliefs and I won't let you "get away" (for lack of a better term; pardon the expression) with using undefined terms and words out of context.

Your "definition" above, such as it is, doesn't define anything in a meaningful way and could (modulo the reference to Christians and the trinity) apply to a dozen different deities off the top of my head. Why is your deity better?

I'm not saying this to be rude or condescending or to upset or insult you. If we want to have this discussion we have to start at the bottom and build up. And the bottom is this simple 3-part question:

What are the attributes of "god"?How did you come to know them?How can I verify your knowledge and your assertions?

I, too, could have written your response for you; this isn't my first rodeo either.

Discussing/debating the subject - vigorously - is perfectly fine with me and if you want to have such a discussion or debate, then by all means, let's roll! But, I will let you know up front, that I will challenge you and your beliefs and I won't let you "get away" (for lack of a better term; pardon the expression) with using undefined terms and words out of context.

Your "definition" above, such as it is, doesn't define anything in a meaningful way and could (modulo the reference to Christians and the trinity) apply to a dozen different deities off the top of my head. Why is your deity better?

I'm not saying this to be rude or condescending or to upset or insult you. If we want to have this discussion we have to start at the bottom and build up. And the bottom is this simple 3-part question:

What are the attributes of "god"?How did you come to know them?How can I verify your knowledge and your assertions?

No, there's no need for another rodeo.

Just to be fair:

What are the attributes of "god"? In my humble opinion, the primary are love, grace and mercy. How did you come to know them? The revelation of the holy spirit in my life based on my choice to claim Christ as my risen Lord and Savior.How can I verify your knowledge and your assertions? You do what I said initially....you take it to the source for yourself honestly, earnestly and humbly.

Unfortunately, you appear to have made your choice about this issue. Sure, we could have a Google warrior exchange and both cite scripture, website references, books references, etc.....and in the end no matter how convincing I may or may not be it, without acknowledging my initial position, the exchange would most likely resolve with "God's a fairytale anyhow". So, I'm perfectly content with saying you won in this exchange. That said, I'm currently left with no option but to shake the dust from my feet. Have a good one!

What are the attributes of "god"? In my humble opinion, the primary are love, grace and mercy. How did you come to know them? The revelation of the holy spirit in my life based on my choice to claim Christ as my risen Lord and Savior.How can I verify your knowledge and your assertions? You do what I said initially....you take it to the source for yourself honestly, earnestly and humbly.

Unfortunately, you appear to have made your choice about this issue. Sure, we could have a Google warrior exchange and both cite scripture, website references, books references, etc.....and in the end no matter how convincing I may or may not be it, without acknowledging my initial position, the exchange would most likely resolve with "God's a fairytale anyhow". So, I'm perfectly content with saying you won in this exchange. That said, I'm currently left with no option but to shake the dust from my feet. Have a good one!

I wouldn't say I won, since we didn't even get off the ground, but you're very gracious. Have a good one too.