That would completely and utterly defeat the point of the talent, and noone in their right mind would ever pick it. The talent is fine, it's strong, all classes have strong talents/skills but you're simply used to handling those things while subterfuge/C&D is a new rogue thing. You'll get used to it.

That would completely and utterly defeat the point of the talent, and noone in their right mind would ever pick it. The talent is fine, it's strong, all classes have strong talents/skills but you're simply used to handling those things while subterfuge/C&amp;D is a new rogue thing. You'll get used to it.

The problem is that you CAN'T get used to it. When a rogue is invisible the first 3 seconds of their opener, you can't tell what cool downs they are using, if any, and as such, can't respond properly. The talent would still be extremely strong if you could see rogues but they retained their ability to cast garrote/cheap/sap

That would completely and utterly defeat the point of the talent, and noone in their right mind would ever pick it. The talent is fine, it's strong, all classes have strong talents/skills but you're simply used to handling those things while subterfuge/C&D is a new rogue thing. You'll get used to it.

IMO, Cloak and Dagger should be a 15 yard range and Subterfuge should only prevent stealth from breaking when you recieve damage. To compensate, I would increase the duration of Subterfuge to 4 seconds to counteract the damage/utility nerf.

Edit: Once Subterfuge is nerfed, Ambush energy cost will have to reduced to 40 energy and the energy reduction from Shadow Dance removed. Ambush is then useful for all specs, not just Sub.

That would completely and utterly defeat the point of the talent, and noone in their right mind would ever pick it. The talent is fine, it's strong, all classes have strong talents/skills but you're simply used to handling those things while subterfuge/C&D is a new rogue thing. You'll get used to it.

What? You still basically get a mini shadow dance every time you restealth or vanish, correct me if I'm wrong but that still sounds a lot better than anything else you have on that tier. Being nearly unpeelable every opener for 3 seconds is way too good, and as stated you can't tell at first if the rogue is even using cooldowns on you or not.

IMO, Cloak and Dagger should be a 15 yard range and Subterfuge should only prevent stealth from breaking when you recieve damage. To compensate, I would increase the duration of Subterfuge to 4 seconds to counteract the damage/utility nerf.

Edit: Once Subterfuge is nerfed, Ambush energy cost will have to reduced to 40 energy and the energy reduction from Shadow Dance removed. Ambush is then useful for all specs, not just Sub.

Smartest thing i have heard on this forum. Agree with pretty much everything here.

Other suggestion is to maybe put a 3-5 second CD on cloak and dagger so you don't lose out on the benefits it gives (lag wise, cant open on someone with mount etc.) but at the same time you cant CC an entire team during a dance, keep the range @ 20 yards or so, because i don't believe the range is the problem here, because it doesn't resolve the issues where teams are are clumped up near pillars.

IMO, Cloak and Dagger should be a 15 yard range and Subterfuge should only prevent stealth from breaking when you recieve damage. To compensate, I would increase the duration of Subterfuge to 4 seconds to counteract the damage/utility nerf.

Edit: Once Subterfuge is nerfed, Ambush energy cost will have to reduced to 40 energy and the energy reduction from Shadow Dance removed. Ambush is then useful for all specs, not just Sub.

Only agree about the ambush tweak, your suggested changes to C&D/subterfuge are just flawed, you really didn't think that one through.

What? You still basically get a mini shadow dance every time you restealth or vanish, correct me if I'm wrong but that still sounds a lot better than anything else you have on that tier. Being nearly unpeelable every opener for 3 seconds is way too good, and as stated you can't tell at first if the rogue is even using cooldowns on you or not.

No, because ambush still costs 60 energy during subterfuge, and as such does about the same DPE as backstab. The thing you do get from subterfuge is the ability to extend your opener cc by 3 seconds (garrote opener, CS as subterfuge is falling off for example.) Sure, you can subterfuge into CS or garrote into ambush for 60 energy, or if you time it well you can garrote into 2x ambush to empty your energy fast (still will do the same total damage as backstab, over time, but you do get slightly more burst for a few globals).

In short, subterfuge is not a damage talent, like so many in here seem to think.

I've actually given several good reasons for it, and explained my reasoning in detail. You on the other hand just happen to come into the rogue forums and decided to try and talk down to me, because apparently you think you know better and just couldn't be arsed to give any actual arguments to back it up.

What woundmand suggests will also require some other adjustments, like increasing rogue sustained damage outside of CDs, and it would take the playstyle back to the same one we've always had. I also liked that playstyle more than the current one, but the thing is that the old rogue playstyle does not work any more because of how all other classes have developed (new talents/skills), rogues would be useless (a lot like they were before 5.2).

I strongly believe that rogues need something like C&D/subterfuge, sure there are endless other ways to balance rogues but this is the way it currently is so until the next major overhaul we're stuck with something like this. C&D+subterfuge nicely solves our mobility problems at the same time it makes the class more consistent (getting openers off, etc.) Nerf C&D/subterfuge more and they will become talents noone picks, and at that point, if things stay like they are in 5.3, rogues would be one of the worst melees. (still viable, obviously, but bottom tier still.)

Also, if they nerf C&D mobility instead of just buffing shadowstep to make that an option, rogues will just be a huge fucking pain to play simply because of terrible mobility.

Only agree about the ambush tweak, your suggested changes to C&D/subterfuge are just flawed, you really didn't think that one through.

Explain the alternative then. I am basing my opinion on the past and why Rogues were so weak in the beginning of MoP. If you think you have a better idea, please share it with the rest of the community. I have buffs I did not mention, that would go great with my idea.

Only agree about the ambush tweak, your suggested changes to C&D/subterfuge are just flawed, you really didn't think that one through.

Good sir, I concur! Rogues are desperately in need of buffs! I must humbly disagree with any notion to nerf the rogue class as it is perfectly balanced right now, if anything the class is struggling!

hid, on 26 April 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

What woundmand suggests will also require some other adjustments, like increasing rogue sustained damage outside of CDs, and it would take the playstyle back to the same one we've always had. I also liked that playstyle more than the current one, but the thing is that the old rogue playstyle does not work any more because of how all other classes have developed (new talents/skills), rogues would be useless (a lot like they were before 5.2).

I strongly believe that rogues need something like C&D/subterfuge, sure there are endless other ways to balance rogues but this is the way it currently is so until the next major overhaul we're stuck with something like this. C&D+subterfuge nicely solves our mobility problems at the same time it makes the class more consistent (getting openers off, etc.) Nerf C&D/subterfuge more and they will become talents noone picks, and at that point, if things stay like they are in 5.3, rogues would be one of the worst melees. (still viable, obviously, but bottom tier still.)

Also, if they nerf C&D mobility instead of just buffing shadowstep to make that an option, rogues will just be a huge fucking pain to play simply because of terrible mobility.

Again good sir, I completely agree that rogues should be buffed in numerous ways, and any notion to nerf them is SIMPLY ABSURD!

I've actually given several good reasons for it, and explained my reasoning in detail. You on the other hand just happen to come into the rogue forums and decided to try and talk down to me, because apparently you think you know better and just couldn't be arsed to give any actual arguments to back it up.

I'm actually really interested in your "good" reasons for subterfuge being fine. You are prolly right being 100% unpeelable for 3 seconds every restealth/vanish is truly fair and balanced. And don't try the if you let a rogue restealth you need to l2p because I just got done watching cdew stream and the other teams rogue was able to get quite a few res easily. So unless you think Khryl Chanimals and Cdew are dog shit you might want to think up a new argument.

Energy reduction for Ambush outside of Dance would be way stronger than what we have now, especially for sub. The core problem is not Subterfuge, it's Cloak and Dagger. A passive talent that outshines the active one by a far margin, reduces the number of binds needed (target/focus/party1/2). In my opinion the passive talents should always be weaker than the active talent when used at full potential. This is way I think Feint is a better designed ability than Cheat Death, same goes for ShS being better designed than C&D, it's simply to weak in comparision.

Maybe remove C&D, add two talents, one that gives ShS with a 15 second cooldown and one that gives two times ShS, similar to warrior T1 talents.