If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

We're aware the forums aren't working as they should, and we're working on it. Our apologies. In the meantime, you can discuss with others on the Onyx Path Discussion Group on Facebook.

Solars practising Hamon? How!

08-22-2018, 12:17 AM

I've been working or thinking about the idea of a charm to create
Ripple for solar exalts, a scenelength benefit for unarmed solar native charms that boxes spirits and subdues the enemies of the sun. Weakens but doesn't kill always adding options for payoff but not hyper lethal just weakening.
You can mitigate this with actions, unless mortal, but duck those guys

SunstrokePankration

Brawl 5

Essence 3

2 motes plus up to brawl+essence
Simple

Scenelength

The solar pugilist suffuses his body with the more aggressive light of the Sun. His punches deliver much more than Force which can affect the immaterial the mortal and the supernatural in certain ways.
The radiant searing energy will be equal to the number of Motes invested beyond the initial amount.For Mortal creatures if the number of Motes infused in their pool/body exceeds their stamina they for every turn that this is so must roll stamina at difficulty increased for each mote beyond their stamina in order to avoid succumbing to a heat stroke or similar complication. When fail they start to suffer sunstroke experiencing fainting, seizures, vomiting and so on.

This radiation has a more complicated effect with supernatural creatures. In their case the Motes are infused in the empty spaces of ttheir poold
Motes are not overwritten unless target is immaterial, in grapple, or enemy of creation.

They make a stamina check for supernatural sunstroke

When the infused motes exceed the targets own motes in number

When they have committed motes that have been infused with this charm

When they are held within a grapple by the solar sunstroke pankrator at the start of the turn

If they lose the check they vomit their own motes by the amount failed. If they fail their check they instead Hemorrhage out their own and natural notes. In the case that this would exceed the ones that are free then the ones committed to charms or artifacts suffer and these effects are canceled and the whole amount committed to the effect is lost at once. Though they of course can start at what motes are free and available.
If a supernatural creature only has motes in their pool infused by this charm that's when they start hemmoraging a point of their essence score every time they lose the check. While this will not affect blessings or spells that have been cast on them innate traits granted by Supernatural nature such as being a magical serpent or an elemental will be affected negatively. Such as losing traits enabled by their nature, zombies immobilized or similar issues.

Demigods are likely just to be as Mortal if reduced below Essence one. And then it will affect them as if they are mortal creature. [spoiler=Not permenant]This is just a temporary condition. They will recover their Essence score much akin to moats although it will cost as if they're refilling their moat pool from their adjusted score. Once they exceeded they go up back to the next level they lost and so on until they're back at the strength they once had.[/spoiler]

any victim can spend an infused mote but doing so increases the difficulty per point spent of any stamina based checks or actions until they rest for a scene.

When someone spends the Motes infused by this charm they become vulnerable to any and increase the difficulty for any stamina based checks or actions by 1 per mote spent in the scene. The motes inflicted by this charm takes up empty space unless a creature is immaterial or an enemy of creation. Or the motes are inflicted in the form of a grapple. Then they replace any motes free or committed.

Unless a creature escapes a grapple by way of their control in the form of skill when they do so they are afflicted with two times the solar Essence in Motes. A solar may always choose to sacrifice all their raw dadamagof their strike into the mote effect.

In a grapple damage and mote effect are shared. That is to say the mote effect is increased by damage without sacrificing the damage the grapple could do though can sacrifice damage for mote plus 2x damage sacrificed infusion.

A solar cannot increase the commitment to this charm after it's been made it has to be canceled in full then recommitted with the full amount.

It said that this charm was used for punishing recalcitrant gods as well as beating down the trash mobs of the enemies of creation and the Lawgiver

-

Although it's been revised a few times this is obviously not the final draft. I want to make sure that I can cut down on the complexity and difficulty to make this as succinct and communicate all the effects and meanings to be used as possible. I realize this is a complicated charm. And the effect is powerful but it's not actually meant to be lethal so much as complicated. This is why in fact it takes longer to affect any Supernatural creature than any mortal.

The basic idea is that much like we have Corona of Radiance and then we have those charms that let you replace ammunition with some light this is sort of the equivalent for Brawlers.

Ultimately this helps you weaken in enemy. I wasn't able to think of a way that you could easily weekend a supernatural opponent and make it stick without it violating a bunch of assumptions with the setting in the characters. But before you freak out at what this does just a reminder unless this person grapples you or you were an enemy of creation or you are immaterial the simplest defense against this thing being a problem is to spend the most as quickly as possible and defeat them. This is in fact a very terrible charm to use against the sidereals who tend to commit all of their motes.

Please read and consider it and share any criticism that you want to give. This is primarily written with the idea of fitting into something like a first edition system. I do not know what the Third Edition is like or what it comprises aside from apparently a lot of investment in artifacts getting powers like this is Dawn something

Comment

I've been working or thinking about the idea of a charm to create
Ripple for solar exalts, a scenelength benefit for unarmed solar native charms that boxes spirits and subdues the enemies of the sun. Weakens but doesn't kill always adding options for payoff but not hyper lethal just weakening.
You can mitigate this with actions, unless mortal, but duck those guys

SunstrokePankration

I really don't mean to be rude, but my honest feedback is tl;dr. A typical charm should not be quite so long. That charm is longer than Heaven Thunder Hammer and its relevant sidebar combined, though, admittedly, nowhere near Wyld Shaping Technique levels.

My advice is to break this down into two or three discrete effects, perhaps including enhancement charms.

Comment

I really don't mean to be rude, but my honest feedback is tl;dr. A typical charm should not be quite so long. That charm is longer than Heaven Thunder Hammer and its relevant sidebar combined, though, admittedly, nowhere near Wyld Shaping Technique levels.

My advice is to break this down into two or three discrete effects, perhaps including enhancement charms.

Well I definitely want to shorten the wording so that that way it's much more succinct and much more efficient. But why do you believe that the effects of the charm are simply too large and complicated? Effectively it's a version of Corona of Radiance for the unarmed solar specialist. I personally think the idea that brawl must be stupid or brutish is the most limiting thing possible in his system that favors finesse and complexity. Overall this is basically just allowing you to punch your targets with light that makes them overwhelming and sick and weakens them. How do you think I can convey that in a very succinct manner that will be relatively easy to handle but effective so that it's not one of those effects that no one ever uses.

Comment

Well I definitely want to shorten the wording so that that way it's much more succinct and much more efficient. But why do you believe that the effects of the charm are simply too large and complicated? Effectively it's a version of Corona of Radiance for the unarmed solar specialist. I personally think the idea that brawl must be stupid or brutish is the most limiting thing possible in his system that favors finesse and complexity. Overall this is basically just allowing you to punch your targets with light that makes them overwhelming and sick and weakens them. How do you think I can convey that in a very succinct manner that will be relatively easy to handle but effective so that it's not one of those effects that no one ever uses.

The hamon wasn't limited to a specific person anyone could learn it. I would have to say that brawl is supposed to be brutish. It's charms are straightforward and vicious. Each of the combat charms emphasis a specific type of fighting. Brawl just happens to be brutal. Melee is the elegant swordsman. Archery is death from a mile away. Thrown is you're already dead before the fight even starts. MA gets all the forms, katas and techniques. The Ripple was also something that was developed and practiced by a lot of people before Jojo learned it.
.

Comment

I don't think Solar Brawl needs to be stupid or brutish. I think part of the point of Solar Charms is that you can flavor them how you like; your Brawl Solar can just as much be a master of an Ancient Martial Tradition as a naturally trained Street Brawler or a Classical Wrestler. But I do have some trouble reading this charm (I think English isn't your native language, so there's a bit of a language barrier here), however, I kind of get what effect you're going for here. But at the same time, as a second however, I think the way you're doing it is a bit too complicated, as this effect is a whole lot of extra book keeping and rolling and tracking what motes are whose and whose mote's are whats.

Rather then making this a single charm, I'd make it a small tree of 3-4 charms. It seems like the idea is to make this effective against spirits, so I'd start maybe with, for instance, an Instant charm to attack immaterial creatures, then go from there, with charms that let you do more Ripple based things, like transferring it through appropriate connectors with a stunt- For instance, a charm to let you avoid a Defend Other by transferring energy through the Defender to the target, like Zeppeli does with the Frog-, or similar. Avoid all of the 'tainted motes' and 'filling an opponent's pools with your own motes', especially as a scene long, as it becomes more and more confusing. Instead, the idea of a Magical Sun Stroke (perhaps named something like 'Sun's Judgement' or 'Sun's Blistering Gaze') could or should be something applied to an attack through an instant by spending the motes, with a heavier effect for Creatures of Darkness or Enemies of Creation, as you literally fill your opponent with Solar Radiance and it breaks them down from the inside.

Part of the reason of this is that Solar Brawl already has a lot of Scene Longs and charms that are expensive and don't work well together in it; a lot of it's big money charms are incompatible in use in a way that, say, Solar Melee and Solar Thrown don't have to deal with. Adding additional Scene Longs with heavy mote commitments or simple action charms that can't be used with them overloads Brawl, where a player can already be looking at the fact they have 3 or 4 or more Simple charms to pick between for actions every turn, along with the series of Scene long charms also in the tree.

1 like

Comment

I think the idea of putting your motes into someone elses mote pool--cutting off their supernatural reserves with yours--is intreasting, if feeling a bit weird for Solars. I'd say cut the lines about demigods, and condense the mechanics (mortals get the check, but by definition get the worst result). Alternatively, have the more extreme effects just be for Creatures of Darkness (what you refere to as enemies of creation).

On that note, I'd consider reading (if you have it availible) Golden Janissary, which seems thematically related and might be a way to integrate this better (Golden Jannissary and Water Style feel...hamon-y from my understanding). As for it fitting into brawl...-shrug- brawl has parts that refer to entering a calm and focused state like a Martial Artist (I forget the name of it) and of focusing around the bloodshed and burtality, so I think this fits fine as a brawl charm for someone. It more doesn't feel solar to me, since it plays with the overt supernatural more...maybe some sort of Lore/Brawl combo?

Comment

I don't think Solar Brawl needs to be stupid or brutish. I think part of the point of Solar Charms is that you can flavor them how you like; your Brawl Solar can just as much be a master of an Ancient Martial Tradition.

Except it cannot by it's own reading. That is what MA is for explicitly. Brawl is raw power it can't be understated as anything but raw damage. It can look graceful and it can look stylish but it has no proper technique behind it.

Comment

I don't think Solar Brawl needs to be stupid or brutish. I think part of the point of Solar Charms is that you can flavor them how you like; your Brawl Solar can just as much be a master of an Ancient Martial Tradition as a naturally trained Street Brawler or a Classical Wrestler. But I do have some trouble reading this charm (I think English isn't your native language, so there's a bit of a language barrier here), however, I kind of get what effect you're going for here. But at the same time, as a second however, I think the way you're doing it is a bit too complicated, as this effect is a whole lot of extra book keeping and rolling and tracking what motes are whose and whose mote's are whats.

Rather then making this a single charm, I'd make it a small tree of 3-4 charms. It seems like the idea is to make this effective against spirits, so I'd start maybe with, for instance, an Instant charm to attack immaterial creatures, then go from there, with charms that let you do more Ripple based things, like transferring it through appropriate connectors with a stunt- For instance, a charm to let you avoid a Defend Other by transferring energy through the Defender to the target, like Zeppeli does with the Frog-, or similar. Avoid all of the 'tainted motes' and 'filling an opponent's pools with your own motes', especially as a scene long, as it becomes more and more confusing. Instead, the idea of a Magical Sun Stroke (perhaps named something like 'Sun's Judgement' or 'Sun's Blistering Gaze') could or should be something applied to an attack through an instant by spending the motes, with a heavier effect for Creatures of Darkness or Enemies of Creation, as you literally fill your opponent with Solar Radiance and it breaks them down from the inside.

Part of the reason of this is that Solar Brawl already has a lot of Scene Longs and charms that are expensive and don't work well together in it; a lot of it's big money charms are incompatible in use in a way that, say, Solar Melee and Solar Thrown don't have to deal with. Adding additional Scene Longs with heavy mote commitments or simple action charms that can't be used with them overloads Brawl, where a player can already be looking at the fact they have 3 or 4 or more Simple charms to pick between for actions every turn, along with the series of Scene long charms also in the tree.

Does it have a lot of scene longs? AFB, but I was having touble finding one for Brawl Supernal NPC to anima-up before combat...

I think it might be good to make these occult, instead of brawl, since Occult has that first charm already.

Comment

Hamon has enough weirdness and random utility in it that it probably makes sense in MA rather than Brawl. Remember, it lets you do things like detect your enemies through walls or endow weapons with the energy of the sun. Also, while not everyone can practice it, it's still more of a 'technique' that is passed down from person to person rather than an application of innate power. Your Exaltation is more like a Stand. (And I'd tend to say the reason Speedwagon couldn't master Hamon the way Jonathan could was because he was a mortal, really. He wasn't utterly incapable of practicing it or understanding its basics, he just wouldn't be able to fight vampires with it.)

My only problem with this is that Hamon also tends to focus a lot on individuals developing their own techniques as they go, whereas MA isn't something you can normally extend. But there's no actual reason you can't just have eg. charms for the basic Hamon applications that explicitly break that rule by allowing you to create new charms going off them. You'd have to consider the thematic implications (I tend to think the MA restriction is more thematic than necessary for balance, given that you can freely create unlimited Evocations for more powerful artifacts), but if you were creating Hamon as a MA you'd probably want it to be a big deal in that sense anyway.

Comment

Hamon has enough weirdness and random utility in it that it probably makes sense in MA rather than Brawl. Remember, it lets you do things like detect your enemies through walls or endow weapons with the energy of the sun. Also, while not everyone can practice it, it's still more of a 'technique' that is passed down from person to person rather than an application of innate power. Your Exaltation is more like a Stand. (And I'd tend to say the reason Speedwagon couldn't master Hamon the way Jonathan could was because he was a mortal, really. He wasn't utterly incapable of practicing it or understanding its basics, he just wouldn't be able to fight vampires with it.)

My only problem with this is that Hamon also tends to focus a lot on individuals developing their own techniques as they go, whereas MA isn't something you can normally extend. But there's no actual reason you can't just have eg. charms for the basic Hamon applications that explicitly break that rule by allowing you to create new charms going off them. You'd have to consider the thematic implications (I tend to think the MA restriction is more thematic than necessary for balance, given that you can freely create unlimited Evocations for more powerful artifacts), but if you were creating Hamon as a MA you'd probably want it to be a big deal in that sense anyway.

I think a hamon leading to a stand effect would be interesting. Though it'd be a bunch of techniques leading to a stand form charm which would probably require a weird hybrid of evocation-MA charms.

Comment

Hamon is pretty straightforward, though (it does have some unusual applications, but they all tend to be some variation on 'apply direct force for fighting purposes'); it makes more sense as a normal martial art.

Whereas Stands tend to be bizarre and unusual enough that they'd be more appropriate as an SMA thing, if you were going to do them via MA at all. (Stand-users could also just be a type of Exigent or something. Although most stands lack the breadth or development potential to be your entire Exaltation... well, I guess you could pretty much convert an entire tree of Brawl charms and make them attacks via a fighty stand.)

Comment

Some effects would be neat as brawl charms, but I think they'd be better as individual effects rather than a scene long buff.

It could also work as a martial art. Probably one seen as blasphemous by the IO. It almost feels like it could a solar version of the Immaculate Dragon Styles, as if they needed the help. Not sure what the solar-only benefits would be though. Maybe have the style be compatible with solar brawl charms? Pretty crazy, but it might be possible to balance if it's just one style.

Comment

Some effects would be neat as brawl charms, but I think they'd be better as individual effects rather than a scene long buff.

It could also work as a martial art. Probably one seen as blasphemous by the IO. It almost feels like it could a solar version of the Immaculate Dragon Styles, as if they needed the help. Not sure what the solar-only benefits would be though. Maybe have the style be compatible with solar brawl charms? Pretty crazy, but it might be possible to balance if it's just one style.

I'm not sure I'd have that. The ripple does equate itself to the sun but it does a lot of things that is not at all in line with solar brawl.