So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

I'm just getting started reading the series and was curious what Lit fans thought of the organization, the idea behind it, and how it effects the dynamics of the setting. It was a brilliant stroke, IMHO, but I haven't read much of it.

A little lengthier, I like the idea that the Typhon Pact isn't "just" the New Soviet MenaceTM (which would be ironic because of Checov). It's not a Legion of Doom-style organization like the Klingon/Gorn/Orion alliance is in Star Trek Online either. It's an alternative organization to the Federation for people who think the Feddies are a "homo-sapiens only" club. If you're a pessimist, it's an alliance existing in much the same was as the (evil) Federation/Klingon one in TUC, more or less to preserve the right of stomping a boot forever on freedom in their territories.

However, the funny thing is that even poisoned Earth can occasionally give healthy plants. The Breen, Tzenkethi, Tholians, and so on are all completely opposite in HOW they're opposed to the Federation. Assuming the Pact just flat-out doesn't fall apart or lead to war, you're going to see free trade and exposure of ideas which will undermine the values which keep everything vile going in these groups. The Breen, for instance, are racially tolerant while the Tzenkethi (actually I've got nothing for positive qualities about them), and the Gorn are an okay bunch when they're not being threatened.

If I may ruin my argument, I'm reminded of Angel One's ending. The alliance is an attempt to halt evolution but it's only going to delay it (if not actually accelerate it). Still, I'm hoping I'll see plenty of uses of the Typhon Pact AS villains in addition to seeing them as a positive force. As much as I love Klingons, they're a horrible bunch of people and if an alliance existed between Genghis Khan, Atilla the Hun, Qin China, and Colonel Green--I'd expect some nastiness.

As I suggested in the other thread, the Pact was not meant to be an alliance of "villains" -- it was more about creating an opportunity to flesh out a number of background alien races that had not been given much development in previous shows or novels. It had a couple of major races, the Romulans and Tholians, to anchor it, but there was still very little known about the Gorn, Breen, and Tzenkethi -- and the Kinshaya were a totally obscure race that had only been mentioned in passing in a couple of novels.

The telling part is the inclusion of the Gorn, who have usually been portrayed as having friendly relations with the Federation in the wake of that initial misunderstanding in "Arena." Indeed, in the novel continuity, which incorporates the Wildstorm graphic novel The Gorn Crisis, the Gorn ruling caste actually owes its continued survival to Picard and Data, who helped them defeat a coup. The fact that they were included in the Pact shows that it's not about being an enemy of the Federation, just about being an alternative. And the Kinshaya have no history of interaction with the Federation one way or the other; their historical enmity is with the Klingons, and a case can be made that they're more the victims there than the aggressors. They really have no interest in clashing with the Federation but just want to be left alone. To a large extent, the Pact is just about giving the races of the quadrant an alternative to being dominated by the Federation as a lone superpower. They don't want to invade or conquer or destroy us, they just want to be left alone. Granted, the Tholians and Breen have more aggressive designs than the rest, but as the Vanguard series makes clear, the Tholians see their actions as self-defense, or as retaliation for the Federation's past abuses.

And as the TP novels progress, you'll find that the Romulans end up going in a rather unexpected direction that makes it even harder to reduce the Pact to a "league of villains."

In any case, as I said in the other thread, the biggest mistake is to talk about the entire Pact as a monolithic "they." It's six different "they"s (possibly more, since each one has different internal factions) that are as likely to be at odds with one another as with the Federation or anyone else.

The Klingons have allies of the Federation for a century. They just helped off The Dominion and The Borg. Them joining the Typhon Pact alongside their enemies the Kinshaya and the Romulans just wouldn't make any sense.

Yeah,I would like to see the pact expanded and broadened a little.Adding a few different races to the pact might not just make the pact seem more "legitimate"but also might present a more serious threat to the Federation in the long run.

I think the creation of the TP was one of the most interesting things to happen in TrekLit. It's given us a very interesting new political faction, that has a rather complex relationship with the UFP, which just gets more complex as thing go along. And on the real world side of things it has given the books a chance to give us some great world building, especially for the Breen and the Kinshaya, who were both very undeveloped in the TV series.

The Klingons have allies of the Federation for a century. They just helped off The Dominion and The Borg. Them joining the Typhon Pact alongside their enemies the Kinshaya and the Romulans just wouldn't make any sense.

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Obviously not with the Kinshaya, but I note they have the most to gain. The Empire has never really expressed any desire to join the Federation and their attitudes are incompatible. Besides, they were within inches of going to war with the Federation before the Cardassians became a much easier target.

I am so TIRED of the Breen. And the poor Kinshaya have been completely relegated to the ebooks, bennets and swallows. Vanguard gave an insight into the Tholians that I found fascinating and with the exception of that awful Titan novel and a chunk of Cold Equations, I want more Gorn.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't incorporate some movieverse elements as a result, too, like Vulcan suddenly developing inexplicable earthquakes and a need to evacuate the planet before it collapses.

(I.e. as a result of the timeline shift before the "split" is fully settled)

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That makes no sense at all. Vulcan was destroyed in 2258 in the Abramsverse, not 2387. And the split occurred in 2233.

Other predictions include:

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I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't incorporate some movieverse elements as a result, too, like Vulcan suddenly developing inexplicable earthquakes and a need to evacuate the planet before it collapses.

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It wouldn't make sense to include that in any novels, as it happened in an entirely different reality. If the novels are to focus only on events of the primary universe, then any mention of the destruction of Romulus would likely also include a narrative about the disappearance of both Spock and the Narada, but nothing more than that. As far as anyone should be able to tell, both were crushed by the singularity.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't incorporate some movieverse elements as a result, too, like Vulcan suddenly developing inexplicable earthquakes and a need to evacuate the planet before it collapses.

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It wouldn't make sense to include that in any novels, as it happened in an entirely different reality.

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And the only reason it happened was because the Narada's drill was used to deliver a black hole into the planet's core. Nothing about the destruction of Vulcan was natural.

Back with "Singular Destiny" I thought that the Typhon Pact would make an interesting enemy, but since then I haven't really found the Pact to be that enemy that they were setup to be. I've read up to Brinkmanship, but right now I've found the Pact is more of a mouse giving off the roar of a tiger and doesn't really seem to be as big of a threat, or even be in the same class of enemy to the Federation as the Cardassians/Dominion or the Borg. The Pact seems to be more like those two races from "The Outrageous Okona", and my reaction tends to be like Riker's in that episode when he says that the regs do call for shields against pea shooters.