I undid (hah, almost typed undead) a revision which was just plain insane--paring down the requirements, handing out bonus feats, all good saves, and changing the appropriate-mount table so it worked each level and ended up with an undead T-Rex. Sorry, IP Address 70.--whatever, but this page isn't to be messed with. -- Genowhirl 21:32, 17 December 2008 (MST)

Are you in need of protection? I can protect the page against IP if you want. --Lord Dhazriel 21:36, 17 December 2008 (MST)

What is the animate dead ability? One could assume it's animate dead 1/day , animate dead at will, or even that you simply add animate dead to your spell list. I know it's not in the tome of necromancy original forum but i see no reason not to improve upon their failing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.126.116.60 (talk • contribs) 23:22, 18 December 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts!

Wow, that's petty...Anyway, yeah, some Frank and K stuff has glitches in it. The best thing to do is ask them. Which I'll do right now, and get back to you. -- Genowhirl 09:36, 19 December 2008 (MST)

I notice this doesn't have an alignment requirement. It does borrow from The Blackguard which requires an evil character. Furthermore, riding around on an undead mount doesn't exactly give off the "good-guy" vibe, if you know what I mean. So while I wouldn't necessarily say "Any Evil", "Non-Good" at a bare minimum seems reasonable. Thoughts? --Badger 22:21, 12 November 2009 (MST)

Sure, you can play it evil. But it's part of the Tome of Necromancy, which it put forth the idea that there's two ways to handle the ethics of negative energy/undead: Playing with Fire, or Crawling Darkness (both in the Morality section of the ToN).

CD holds that all negative energy and undead are evil, period (the PHB assumption, what with rebuking undead being an inherently evil act because it bring negative energy into the world).

PwF is that negative energy (and things it powers, like undead) isn't in itself evil any more than fire or any other force is--harmful if uncontrolled, useful if you're careful; mind you, some uses and creatures are definitely evil.

The difference between CD and PwF is like black vs. gray The base assumption for this class is Playing with Fire.

As for the 'blackguard', it actually basically uses the Blackguard Spell List. Check it out on the page: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Blackguard There's nothing inherently evil about it that can't be readily be altered to a non-evil equivalent or removed if you're of a mind (summon monster or corrupt weapon for example). You can use the 'undead=evil' model in your games, but I sort of like the character complexity it generates when an Good-aligned character takes this up. After all, he may not be riding the skeletal horse because he's evil. It may be because it does what he wants it to, and has several combat and utilitarian advantages over a living mount, in addition to being cheap to feed. I'm for adding a the flavored bits, since it's occurred to me that the Blackguard moral ambivalance deserves it, but don't change the alignment.--Genowhirl

I guess I'd never considered "Negative" an energy type like "cold" or "fire", but I could see how someone could argue that (I've not read any of the ToN before about 20 mins ago). That being said devouring the corpses of a fallen enemy during combat to regain hit points seems like a pretty vile act ("Hunger of the Dead: The mount of a 4th level Bone Rider can consume the flesh of a fallen corporeal enemy and heal itself completely in doing so."). Or is there a chapter in ToN where it says chowing down on raw flesh of slain enemies during the heat of combat is totally OK if it's a Tuesday? :) --Badger 00:53, 13 November 2009 (MST)

That ability came to mind when I was putting together that argument; it is a pretty gnarly ability. I suppose you could not use it and rely on other means to heal your mount.--Genowhirl

you mean such as the inflict wound spells that this class borrows from the blackguard spell list? negative energy spells such as those would serve to heal an undead mount.--Azerinth 05:18, 15 November 2009 (MST)

So the Bone rider essentially uses the blackguard list as the basis for it's spellcasting, and the caster level for those Blackguard spells is equal to the Bone Rider's character level, but does this spellcasting ability count at all when multiclassing when the new class would grant additional levels in a divine spellcasting class? How is it subject to other class effects that raise or otherwise affect your caster level, or require that a certain level of divine spell can be cast as a class prequisite?--Azerinth 05:19, 15 November 2009 (MST)

I'm not sure if it counts, but I would say that when you get the class, you get a divine caster level equal to your character level. So, level 5 if you got it as soon as you absolutely could. So they'd fulfill the caster level requirements. The spell level requirements would be trickier, since you cap out at 4th-level spells, and that'll only take you so far for PrC requirements. So, if you took the full five levels, you'd be able to cast 4th-level divine spells by level 9; not bad a bad thing for a martial-focused character to pick up. You could even continue the fast progression when taking a PrC which grants levels in divine casting class, too. But then, you're screwed because if you wanted to keep up the casting, you'd have to start over in something else. As for affecting caster level, there's items and oddities (ioun stones and the odd feat) which can buff you caster level, but then it goes up as it says; the caster-level dependent effects are increased as if your caster level were one higher. --Genowhirl 00:56, 13 November 2009 (MST)

I consulted with a couple of people. It's an interesting point you brought up and they'd like to know what specifics you were concerned about. Mind dropping me a line at ScrinnamelessATaolDOTcom?

here's some questions i have concerning the mount the dead feature that this class is built around.

1. is a character that takes this class only able to pick one mount upon entering, and then is stuck with it, or are they allowed to summon any creature available to them off the list, or any that a DM will allow, at any time and in any order?
i.e. could a level 15 character with at least 1 level in Bone Rider summon a Charnel hound in a battle, the mount sustains damage during the encounter, but is not destroyed, the Bone Rider then dismisses it. Can the Bone Rider summon an full strength Ulgurstasta the next round, with no backlash?

2. if he then resummons a Charnel Hound later that same day, is it the same damaged one, or is it a brand new one, at full strength?

the second question is very important as i am also curious as to whether or not any items the summoned creature is holding or equipped with simply vanish with it, or the creature vanishes from underneath them and they simply fall to the ground, potentially sustaining damage.
i have such interesting nit-picky thoughts on this class don't i?--Azerinth 05:48, 15 November 2009 (MST)

First off, asking if you can summon creatures at the DM's discretion is a moot point. Everything is at the DM's decretion. Second, I believe this class was built on a similar premises to the SRD Paladin at least in terms of how the mounts would be handled. That being said, it means you get to choose one mount that you summon and dismiss and your liesure, which means there is no summoning a charnel hound and then an ulgurstasta; you can have one or the other. The paladin fully heals the mount each time it is summoned, so I think we can safely assume that the same rule applies here. As for equipment, the paladin's mount appears carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed, ergo same for bone rider. I agree that the details are important, but I think Frank & K expected that it would be sufficient to insuinuate the details and let people figure that out for themselves. Did that help? - TG Cid 08:12, 15 November 2009 (MST)

Are we then to assume that there is to be /no/ switching of mounts? Can a rider choose a new mount at every level, or is he stuck with the same mount for the duration? Has he got to go through some sort of "release ritual" in order to release his first mount to get a new one? Is there some waiting period between releasing from service, then summoning a new one? One last question, are we to assume that this is a full round action like it is for the paladin? --Badger 15:45, 15 November 2009 (MST)

Having looked again at the Paladin, I may have to recant my previous statement concerning switching mounts. The paladin states "the mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service" which seems to suggest that there is no switching. I would guess that the mount could be switched if them ount dies, but in the end it's the DM's choice. Same thing applies for any rituals and waiting period that may be required. As for the action required, that's actually covered by the description and stated to be a standard action. - TG Cid 18:39, 15 November 2009 (MST)

if a Bone Rider has no other spellcasting ability besides that granted by the Bone Rider class, do the phantom steed bonuses derive themselves from her Bone Rider casting level, which is in essence her character level?--Azerinth 20:05, 15 November 2009 (MST)

That's a fair assumption. It most likely uses the same system as all the blackguard spells (which is its character level as its caster level. - TG Cid 16:48, 16 November 2009 (MST)

sweet, the character i have in mind doesn't take this class until his 16th level, so his mounts will fly right off!--Azerinth 17:20, 16 November 2009 (MST)

Concerning Deadly Touch (Deadly Touch (Su): At 2nd level, a Bone Rider can inflict negative energy damage with a touch. The total amount of damage which can be used each day is equal to her Charisma bonus times her class level. As this is negative energy, this damage heals undead. The Bone Rider can use as much or as little of this ability with a single touch as she chooses.), what if the Bone Rider's CHA modifier is +0? Do they get no benefit of this ability, or is it just their class level? Also, it says "Class Level", does that mean Bone Rider level, or ECL? --Badger 18:03, 16 November 2009 (MST)