Its not so much about casey, its about hiring a new guy. Its about breaking that cycle of making shit up on the fly, one second we're building, one second we're going for the playoff, the next we're so bad everyone involved needs to get fired, the next on second thought we might be good enough. There is no point in hiring someone Mid-season unless we know clearly what we have and where we are going.

Except that you can't view it as a continuation of such trends, because those were the doings of the previous manager, who also put Casey in place. They don't have to hire someone mid-season, but firing Casey would just be one more step toward totally cleaning house from the BC era, and not at all indicative of a continually unstable situation, especially if keeping Casey as a coach fosters inherent instability with respect to how the team plays, and how guys are developed.

Except that you can't view it as a continuation of such trends, because those were the doings of the previous manager, who also put Casey in place. They don't have to hire someone mid-season, but firing Casey would just be one more step toward totally cleaning house from the BC era, and not at all indicative of a continually unstable situation, especially if keeping Casey as a coach fosters inherent instability with respect to how the team plays, and how guys are developed.

Firing Casey mid-season, and not hiring the guy you want mid-season, means putting in an assistant coach who knows he's gonna get fired at the end of the season whether the team wins or looses. What is firing Casey in December instead of April going to accomplish ? Impulsive moves are what doomed this franchise. Masai had since May/April until training Camp to fire & replace Casey, he choose not to, he had his reasons we don't know about. If masai decides 45 days in that casey is not the right guy, then we got to Question Messiah's decision making process.

thats what im saying! people are ridiculous. Fans here are so wishy washy its a joke

I think you're just looking at it differently.
A touch more mellow / less critical than myself.

To me, it has nothing to do with wins or losses, and it doesn't start with the 2013/2014 regular season.
The qualms I have with the man are the same I had last season, and in pre-season.

Like I said, judging a coach is different from judging a player.
Frankly, I don't think teams should be patient with coaches beyond the getting to know each other stage.
You can't wait for a coach to learn how to implement offensive sets.
If he can't, he's not good enough.
Casey can't.

Firing Casey mid-season, and not hiring the guy you want mid-season, means putting in an assistant coach who knows he's gonna get fired at the end of the season whether the team wins or looses. What is firing Casey in December instead of April going to accomplish ? Impulsive moves are what doomed this franchise. Masai had since May/April until training Camp to fire & replace Casey, he choose not to, he had his reasons we don't know about. If masai decides 45 days in that casey is not the right guy, then we got to Question Messiah's decision making process.

If Casey is bad for the growth of players, which is what has been preached as the most important aspect of this season, the earlier he's fired, the better. If coach X can run a better team from that perspective even just for a few months before being fired, everybody wins except Casey. The team gets better player development, which makes it easier for Ujiri to do his job regarding evaluating and possibly moving guys. The new coach gets the chance to run an NBA team, which I'm sure both likely top candidates, Bayno and Nurse, would really appreciate even just for a few months.

It's not an impulsive move because of timing, it's just decisive. I don't think it makes us have to question anything. If Casey is obviously wrong for the team, and Masai decides to keep him the whole year, that raises more questions to me than firing him at an earlier juncture.

If Casey is bad for the growth of players, which is what has been preached as the most important aspect of this season, the earlier he's fired, the better. If coach X can run a better team from that perspective even just for a few months before being fired, everybody wins except Casey. The team gets better player development, which makes it easier for Ujiri to do his job regarding evaluating and possibly moving guys. The new coach gets the chance to run an NBA team, which I'm sure both likely top candidates, Bayno and Nurse, would really appreciate even just for a few months.

It's not an impulsive move because of timing, it's just decisive. I don't think it makes us have to question anything. If Casey is obviously wrong for the team, and Masai decides to keep him the whole year, that raises more questions to me than firing him at an earlier juncture.

Casey is exactly the same as he was last year. It just now less fans are making excuses, if casey wasn't bad for player devolpment, in May he's not bad after 2 games, no one was saying anything during camp or preseason. now after 2 games we know more about casey then over the last 2 years & a half ? When Casey met with Masai wasn't the selling point that he wasn't going to interfere like the last guy, he was going to let him coach and then judge him when its done. Now you want masai to act like the last guy ? You say the new guy wins, how ? you win, he doesn't, he left a comfy job to come here, the teams talented players get traded away, he gets to put looses on his professional resume, then in 3-4 months you fire him and send him to find a new job with that stained resume ? you can look for positive signs all you want, it might even be better in the long run. But its still impulsive, still reminiscing of last regime, and Masai word/credibility takes a hit, just so Ross gets more minutes & Valanciunas gets more touches ? i think there's better ways to fix that ie talk it out with the coach.

So what would it take to bring Stan Van Gundy in (next season of course)?

Honestly, just curious what people think are the chances. I think it would necessitate at least ending up with a promising rookie in this draft. Getting Wiggins would definitely qualify, as having him and a promising C in Jonas would definitely be enticing for any coach. Not sure what other '14 draft players would be that appealing. Obviously Parker, Smart and Randle could be.

I do think it would require having what looks like a young core that can be built to win. I think Jonas is a decent start, as you know SVG would have to be happy about a well-grounded C who shoots FTs well after coaching Howard for a few years. If we can't get a stud in the draft, it might take landing someone like a Rondo or other big name.

A positive is that with Leiweke and Ujiri, the team has management that is secure and ambitious. If SVG came next season, on say a 4-year contract that would align with Ujiri's, that would be a pretty good deal for a coach. He knows he'll have time to work on the team, and he'll have the GM behind him. Their fates would be tied together, but Ujiri-Van Gundy seems like a very promising tandem if Leiweke wants to build a winner.

I remember watching an interview with SVG last year where he said that if he did come back to coaching that he would never go anywhere that gets cold, his family wouldn't allow it, and his daughter wouldn't be able to ride horses or something lol. Anyway he seemed very serious about it.

no one was saying anything during camp or preseason. now after 2 games we know more about casey then over the last 2 years & a half ? When Casey met with Masai wasn't the selling point that he wasn't going to interfere like the last guy, he was going to let him coach and then judge him when its done.

You're looking at this like a sociologist.
Who cares what happened in the past, and when?
Is he a good coach, or not?
Nothing else matters.

What I've learned is that he's no different from the past 2 years and a half.
That's the problem.
And there was plenty of talk about it in preseason.
Plenty.
Every thread.

I'm not trying to pick on you, it just doesn't make sense to me.
I don't care about his feelings, and Masai certainly doesn't care how it would make him look.
It's about having a good coach.

I remember watching an interview with SVG last year where he said that if he did come back to coaching that he would never go anywhere that gets cold, his family wouldn't allow it, and his daughter wouldn't be able to ride horses or something lol. Anyway he seemed very serious about it.

They all have a price and besides Leiweke can rent him a heated riding barn for the winter.

You're looking at this like a sociologist.
Who cares what happened in the past, and when?
Is he a good coach, or not?
Nothing else matters.

What I've learned is that he's no different from the past 2 years and a half.
That's the problem.
And there was plenty of talk about it in preseason.
Plenty.
Every thread.

I'm not trying to pick on you, it just doesn't make sense to me.
I don't care about his feelings, and Masai certainly doesn't care how it would make him look.
It's about having a good coach.

Trust me i don't care about his feelings, i've been asking for his head since early last year and he sealed his fate in my eyes when he said come Hell or high water(dumbest comment ever, especially considering who he was referring to). I'm talking about the chaotic way with no direction this organization has been run in the past, we've seen it doesn't work, and we've heard time and time again, that's what worries more free agents & coaches, the instability that is this organization, not the border, not the taxes.
Masai has a plan, that we don't know about. Casey was part of this plan, you change your plan after 2 games, it couldn't have been that good of a plan.

Firing Casey mid-season, and not hiring the guy you want mid-season, means putting in an assistant coach who knows he's gonna get fired at the end of the season whether the team wins or looses. What is firing Casey in December instead of April going to accomplish ? Impulsive moves are what doomed this franchise. Masai had since May/April until training Camp to fire & replace Casey, he choose not to, he had his reasons we don't know about. If masai decides 45 days in that casey is not the right guy, then we got to Question Messiah's decision making process.

A lot if it means getting minutes and experience for the young guys (JV, Ross in particular).

As long as Casey keeps 'coaching to win' (ha!) the young guys on this team, and the immediate and long term future of this team, is bleak.

I been trying to say this for how long now?
coach sucks at developing players
if theirs one person to blame when Ross doesn't reach his ceiling its coach Casey
I'm pretty sure if he left Toronto, Ross would put up at least 12 points a night
we're lucky derozan didn't have Casey around when he was a rookie other wise he wouldn't have been what he is now

if you want your players to feel like their shit and have no confidence stepping on to the floor, keep casey

i dont even get why reporters even bother to interview this man, you already know hes gonna say the same shit *blahblah..development..blahblah..important..long term..blahblah....jv..blahblah*

im not saying he needs to go im just saying he needs to respect his players especially the young guys

Last edited by lilmamba_; Sat Nov 2nd, 2013 at 02:26 PM.

What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low

The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar

A lot if it means getting minutes and experience for the young guys (JV, Ross in particular).

As long as Casey keeps 'coaching to win' (ha!) the young guys on this team, and the immediate and long term future of this team, is bleak.

We debate night and Day everything Raptor related, you really think the GM and the coach of the team can't do the same ? firing the guy this early in the season is the only way ? firing is last resort, after 4 days I'm suppose to beleive they tried everything else ?

Masai has a plan, that we don't know about. Casey was part of this plan, you change your plan after 2 games, it couldn't have been that good of a plan.

Ah, I misunderstood.

But still, like you said, we don't know the plan.
He never openly stated that Casey was his guy.
On the contrary, when Masai came in it was a big question-mark whether he would keep him.

To me, and I believe most in the organization, the decision to keep him was in-line with the only plan he really has spoken of: Wait and see. He didn't say how long. It was a trial, and I don't think making a decision at this point would come off as rash.
I think Masai commands more respect than that.

Hey may not be the first, but you can be sure it's a matter of time.
If he stays on, it's a matter of strategy and nothing more.

We debate night and Day everything Raptor related, you really think the GM and the coach of the team can't do the same ? firing the guy this early in the season is the only way ? firing is last resort, after 4 days I'm suppose to beleive they tried everything else ?

For me it is not 4 days and this is just my opinion but it is 10 months. There is no difference between this year and last. I would expect noticeable change and improvement after 8 preseason games, a month of practice, and a core that has been together for 35 regular season games.

Casey is exactly the same as he was last year. It just now less fans are making excuses, if casey wasn't bad for player devolpment, in May he's not bad after 2 games, no one was saying anything during camp or preseason. now after 2 games we know more about casey then over the last 2 years & a half ? When Casey met with Masai wasn't the selling point that he wasn't going to interfere like the last guy, he was going to let him coach and then judge him when its done. Now you want masai to act like the last guy ? You say the new guy wins, how ? you win, he doesn't, he left a comfy job to come here, the teams talented players get traded away, he gets to put looses on his professional resume, then in 3-4 months you fire him and send him to find a new job with that stained resume ? you can look for positive signs all you want, it might even be better in the long run. But its still impulsive, still reminiscing of last regime, and Masai word/credibility takes a hit, just so Ross gets more minutes & Valanciunas gets more touches ? i think there's better ways to fix that ie talk it out with the coach.

Wow...ok...

Well people were saying it in May. People were also unsure of the impact Colangelo had on coaching. I'm sure Ujiri is included there. So wanting to see how he does things without any meddling is natural. Casey seemed to not be great for player growth last year, but everyone including him used Bargs and BC as excuses, among other things.

As for letting him coach and judging him "when it's done". Nothing along those lines was ever stated. Ujiri did suggest he wouldn't meddle. That doesn't mean it gives Casey 82 games to prove something.

As for the interim coach, usually that comes from within the team, so it doesn't really suggest that any guy is "leaving a comfy job to come here". It likely means an assistant gets to try head coaching for the first time. And when future employers look at that they will acknowledge that part of the situation. You don't actually seem to get it. For an assistant to suddenly be able to put "NBA head coach" on his resume, even with the losses, which again, any manager would acknowledge was part of the team's situation, it will look good for him, especially if he seems to do more with the team than his predecessor. It doesn't stain his resume in any way.

And finally, the last regime, the problem wasn't regarding coaches, it was regarding players. Colangelo never went 2 seasons in a row with the same "core". It in no way would affect Masai's credibility. In no way does it point to him going back on his word. Masai said he would be in "wait and see" mode, but the point of that isn't too wait as long as possible, it's just to take decisive action when you're confident in your assessment. I can't see it taking more than a couple of months for Masai to determine what pieces he thinks he'd like to keep together player-wise, and also whether the coach is the right man to get the most out of them. This isn't a sign of constant change, or stupid impulses, it's a sign of finally wanting to stop that trend, and start from scratch. You can't do that without more change, and that's just a simple fact.