We've gotten pretty solid evidence that reincarnation exists; not only is it explicitly stated in the case of the Avatar, but Raava heavily implies that her spirit will follow with Wan's spirit throughout his future incarnations. This indicates to me that reincarnation is not Avatar-specific, that each individual (and even more likely; different sentient beings depending on which belief we're drawing from) is present in a cycle of reincarnation.Although most belief systems that incorporate reincarnation as a central tenant also dictate rules and "levels" of closeness to nirvana, we see nothing specific in the Avatar world. I would even be tempted to say that with the exception of the Avatar cycle, there is a degree of randomness. Speaking fully within the bounds of the spiritual, I think it's beyond the scope of our current evidence to speculate as to whether this relates to bending or not.However, there seem to be ways to break the cycle. One was seen in the spirit fog - Zhao clearly had not been reincarnated as his personhood, his spirit, was trapped forever. Iroh, too, seems to have broken the cycle. Whether this was in the intended way - nirvana through spiritual enlightenment through knowledge, or through a detour that used knowledge as a tool, I could not be sure. Again, that would depend on which tradition or belief system the show draws upon.

My question is how contingent this is on the separation of the spiritual world and the physical world? My tendency is to say not very, as there is still a distinction. However, with spirits and humans able to pass through both worlds easily, it seems that ascending now has the added benefit of being a way of achieving immortality.

To the best of my understanding, yes, everything you said has been implied by how the show has been portrayed thus far. In fact, I have been lead to believe (by sources I can't quite remember specifically) that Bryke have officially confirmed, in some interview, reincarnation as a fact of human existence independent of the Avatar.

You could construct a Nirvana/Heaven&Hell structure to this system: an individual continuously reincarnates until they reach the point of enlightenment sufficient to find a home in the Spirit World, where death is no longer a problem. However, if an individual gains sufficient negative Karma, instead of being allowed to continue their cycle and try to be better in their next life, their spirit is taken to a prison where their soul is tormented by their personal greatest fears for all eternity with no hope of escape.

I also believe that we have no reason to suspect Raava is the reason the Avatar cycles consistently through the elemental nations. I believe every person does that as well (which is actually dramatically ironic since people from the Fire Nation would normally reincarnate to the Air Nomads... which they themselves wiped out).

I don't know that we have enough room for a discussion about a Heaven/Hell system, nor would I feel comfortable appropriately applying a Western religion to a construction of belief that is very clearly based in non-Western belief systems. We can certainly speak about Nirvana, but that's really only evidenced through Iroh.

... We've seen characters that have exemplified the best their world has to offer earn immortality in an eternal paradise. Then we've seen characters that exemplified the worst their world has to offer placed in a spirit prison to be eternally tormented by their worst fears.

And there's not room enough for discussion about heaven/hell system?

Keep in mind that the show is rather *loosely* based on eastern religious thoughts and still has a ton of western thought and expression in the show. Ever since its creation, the show has been a blend of western and eastern themes and story style.

If I want to label it a form of "heaven," what of it? It's just another model we can use to perceive the world through, whether it's right or wrong. We can compare it to heaven no matter how much or little it has in common with proper definitions of the term.

Of course you're welcome to do that. You can explore the world of Avatar in terms of a heaven/hell system if you like. Just as much as I'm allowed to express my opinion that I find it highly inappropriate. The Spirit World and the mythos of the ATLA world have been purposefully modeled off of non-Western mythology. I of course welcome comparisons, or very simple connections, but your application of the heaven/hell system quite frankly glosses over the numerous nuances that can be gleaned from the subject when viewing it via its source material.

You aren't wrong in saying that it is based "loosely" on Eastern religious thought insofar as it does not draw from a specific belief system but it is very distinctly grounded in distinctly non-Western thought, themes, and style. In terms of the religious system I will always find it highly inappropriate and disrespectful to apply a Abrahamic faith to the Avatar world, not only culturally but academically.

Moving on, are you HONESTLY suggesting that Jinora exemplifies the worst of the Avatar world? Or Bumi, or Tenzin, or Kya? Seriously? We were given an unambiguous explanation for the Fog of Lost Souls: it is the fate of humans who are found in the spirit world. It is a prison utilized by spirits who each made a CONSCIOUS DECISION to place a human spirit in the fog; it is not a mechanism of the universe, and it is a living being. It is comparable to hell in that it is eternal suffering. Compare it to hell all you like (I think purgatory is more fitting, yet still an enormous affront) but you'd have to ignore just about everything that we've been told to fit it into a neat Abrahamic box.

Tiny wrote:Of course you're welcome to do that. You can explore the world of Avatar in terms of a heaven/hell system if you like. Just as much as I'm allowed to express my opinion that I find it highly inappropriate. The Spirit World and the mythos of the ATLA world have been purposefully modeled off of non-Western mythology. I of course welcome comparisons, or very simple connections, but your application of the heaven/hell system quite frankly glosses over the numerous nuances that can be gleaned from the subject when viewing it via its source material.

That's a nice statement. But can we talk about these nuances that I'm not considering? You know, talk about the subject of the thread rather than just make statements about it?

Tiny wrote:You aren't wrong in saying that it is based "loosely" on Eastern religious thought insofar as it does not draw from a specific belief system but it is very distinctly grounded in distinctly non-Western thought, themes, and style. In terms of the religious system I will always find it highly inappropriate and disrespectful to apply a Abrahamic faith to the Avatar world, not only culturally but academically.

This is what I have a problem with. What in the hell could be wrong with comparing Abrahamic culture (which, by the way, is not actually a Western, but a Middle Eastern religion) academically? I've had some wonderful, beneficial discussions in a class called, "Comparative Religion." It was one of the best academic studies of various global religions and faiths one could hope for and it wasn't in preference to any of them. In fact, I would contest the idea that you could ever say much about a faith or religion academically except in comparison and contrast to others.

Tiny wrote:Moving on, are you HONESTLY suggesting that Jinora exemplifies the worst of the Avatar world? Or Bumi, or Tenzin, or Kya? Seriously? We were given an unambiguous explanation for the Fog of Lost Souls: it is the fate of humans who are found in the spirit world. It is a prison utilized by spirits who each made a CONSCIOUS DECISION to place a human spirit in the fog; it is not a mechanism of the universe, and it is a living being. It is comparable to hell in that it is eternal suffering. Compare it to hell all you like (I think purgatory is more fitting, yet still an enormous affront) but you'd have to ignore just about everything that we've been told to fit it into a neat Abrahamic box.

What have we been told that I am ignoring here? Hell was never a mechanism of the universe in Christianity (nor do I believe it was in Abrahamic faith, but I can't be too sure). It was a punishment given by the God known as Yaweh and people were placed there as punishment for offenses. But Abrahamic faith isn't the only place where we see "hell," it's also in Greco-Roman faith with Pluto/Hades's Underworld (as well as Pharonic faiths with Anubis, and so on). Such ideas of people being placed in an eternal prison are found in a variety of faiths. And a common component of this myth is that the people placed in "hell" did not necessarily deserve to be put there, but sometimes there were just in the wrong place at the wrong time or like Koh and Kuruk's wife, they were attacked to punish someone who could not be punished directly.

I really see no reason to be offended at comparing faiths and religions to each other. In fact, in many ways that's what Comparative Religion *is*.

Don't condescend to me, Pleh. You are welcome to indulge your stunted idea that it is based on a heaven-hell system, but to do so, you need to carve away at both the established canon, what has been stated explicitly, and the commentary by the creators themselves.Academically it is inappropriate because to understand the series and the mythos most fully it must be viewed through the most relevant existing belief systems, which is the point of this thread, not to compare it to poor substitutes. There is literally no way that you will convince me that a Christian point of view will most accurately attend to the details of a series that includes a reincarnation system and a focus on a natural, rather than developed, struggle between balance and chaos (as opposed to the one-soul-one-life and First Sin narratives). Or the existence of spirits that embody specific physical spiritual forces, again, something that is not only rejected but violently condemned by the bible. By attempting to do so you are hijacking a discussion and once again imposing yourself where that discussion is CLEARLY unwelcome. You were the one who forced the Comparative Religion into this discussion where it did not exist before.You wanna talk about how Christian theology matches up against the spiritial functions of atla/lok? Feel free, but make your own thread instead of barging into a discussion where it is not only not relevant but insulting.I am 8000% done with your need to always be right despite the circumstances.