Pope Francis has lamented the abandoning of the traditionally Christian practice of not working on Sundays, saying it has a negative impact on families and friendships.

Francis on Saturday traveled to Molise, an agricultural region in the heart of southern Italy where unemployment is chronically high. While he said poor people need jobs to have dignity, he indicated that opening stores and other businesses on Sundays as a way to create jobs wasn't beneficial for society.

Francis said the priority should be "not economic but human," and that the stress should be on families and friendships, not commercial relationships. He added: "Maybe it's time to ask ourselves if working on Sundays is true freedom."...

Lurker, I have appreciated the time you've spent in your posts to me. I see that your knowledge of Scripture is wide and deep, and so respect your views.

I admit that I am seeing Scripture from a different perspective nowadays, but will always hold onto Christ and Him crucified. Without His love, death and resurrection we would have no hope, joy or peace!

MG wrote:Lurker, may I ask what you mean by the danger to my eternal health? I certainly don't see anything I do as gaining eternal life by merit. I live to bring both glory to GOD to show my thankfulness for all He has done.

MG,What I mean is I can't, in good conscience, bid you God speed in your pursuit of pleasing God by observing parts of the Law of Moses. But in fairness to you, I am only aware that you observe Saturday Sabbath and some of the feasts. So, honestly, I can't say much not knowing much.

However, I will repeat what Paul said of the deeds of the law: (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using; ). Now, I know you have a different interpretation of what Paul meant here but I must point out that he used the same language God used to warn Adam and Eve (Gen 3:3) not to eat the fruit (figure of deeds of the Sinai covenant) of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (figure of Sinai covenant).

1 John 3:16-24 tells us plainly what pleases God and what He requires of new covenant Christians.... the laws He promised to write on our hearts by the hearing of the gospel aka the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Lurker, may I ask what you mean by the danger to my eternal health? I certainly don't see anything I do as gaining eternal life by merit. I live to bring both glory to GOD to show my thankfulness for all He has done.

MG wrote:Concerning 2 Cor 3, I'm still finding it hard to see the law being done away with. I can't see the law as being the "ministration of death" because Deuteronomy tells us that obedience to it brings LIFE! The problem is us! We are sinful. I'm thinking that this may instead be the curse of the law, where disobedience makes it a death sentence. Otherwise it's glorious (v9,11). The fact is it is even more glorious with what the messiah has done for us. We are changed from glory to glory (v18).

Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: **for he is thy life**, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

See also Luke 10:25-28.

As for your first statement....

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Death and hell are the Sinai covenant. All who are in it are cast alive into the lake of fire at judgment. (See Is 28:16-19)

I appreciate you prior post. It's good to know you are still open to discussion and criticism because, quite frankly, the path you are pursuing is very dangerous to your eternal health.

Concerning 2 Cor 3, I'm still finding it hard to see the law being done away with. I can't see the law as being the "ministration of death" because Deuteronomy tells us that obedience to it brings LIFE! The problem is us! We are sinful. I'm thinking that this may instead be the curse of the law, where disobedience makes it a death sentence. Otherwise it's glorious (v9,11). The fact is it is even more glorious with what the messiah has done for us. We are changed from glory to glory (v18).

Lurker & GS: Firstly, thanks for your comments. Please understand that I'm not saying anything out of an "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude. I have believed the traditional Christian understanding of the NT all my life, but began to see some "issues" with this understanding about 7 years ago. I've been trying to study these things as much as I'm able to since then and have been (along with my wife) led into the belief that the law/Torah/instructions of GOD still stand for His people. This had not been an easy transition and I wouldn't say I'm fully there yet either. There are many passages that I want to study to see if they can stand up to "Torah remaining" scrutiny. So far, I've found quite valid interpretations of difficult passages and have been excited to see how the OT & NT fit together in a special and amazing way. I truly pray that we are not being deceived and know many would believe we are! However, I can't go back on what I've learnt unless GOD clearly shows us this is wrong. There are many Christians across the world coming to the same conclusions independent of one another - older and younger

GSTexas wrote:MG from the Land Down Under writes:2 Cor 3 is talking about the "vail" or the glory being taken away - not the law!Re read the text and youll see it is speaking of the law. For example:2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be DONE AWAY: 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.Verse 9 says that the ministration of condemnation was glory. The ministration of condemnation is obviously the law. So in verse 4 when it says "which glory was to be done away, it is speaking of the ministration of condemnation, or the law.

Exactly right, GS. MG just doesn't want to see it that way.

Btw, MG. The veil is figurative for the Law of Moses as well as the flesh of Jesus before Calvary as well as the veil of the temple which prevented the people from approaching the holiest of holies and the throne of grace.

MG from the Land Down Under writes:2 Cor 3 is talking about the "vail" or the glory being taken away - not the law!

Re read the text and youll see it is speaking of the law. For example:2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be DONE AWAY: 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Verse 9 says that the ministration of condemnation was glory. The ministration of condemnation is obviously the law. So in verse 4 when it says "which glory was to be done away, it is speaking of the ministration of condemnation, or the law.

MG wrote:The law is integral to both covenants. The difference lies in the law being kept by the efforts of the flesh (Ishmael) vs the law being followed by transformed and redeemed people through the power of the Spirit (Isaac). It is flesh and legalism vs Spirit and faith. The law remains though, as Hebrews 10:16 reminds us. It doesn't give us eternal life, but it is the way of GOD's people.

MG,I can tell by your treatment of biblical texts that you have your mind made up about the Law of Moses being extant and binding and you interpret texts accordingly. Example:

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Apparently you understand "my laws" as the Law of Moses while most of the rest of us understand them to be love God and neighbor which is life.

Ask yourself, by what means did God write His laws, as you understand them, on the hearts of His people after He took salvation and the kingdom of God away from the Jews and gave them to Paul and the Gentiles? No vernacular bibles. No Pharisees to teach the law. Only Paul preaching Christ crucified.

Here's how He did it. Isaiah 52:7. The law of God is not the Law of Moses.

pennned wrote:Only 9 Commandments, thank you for your links, have been listening to them as able. what a blessing!

I really think Christopher had it all wrong. Even as a young girl you were health conscience. While others were guzzling soft drinks, you were drinking healthy and would ask for water. The waitresses would ask if you wanted any lemon with that and you kept telling them Just Plain Water.After awhile, they were used to your emphasis on avoiding sweetened drinks and referred to you as the jpw girl. It all makes sense. Later it changed to Just Purified Water and a legend was born.

2 Cor 3 is talking about the "vail" or the glory being taken away - not the law! It says (v17), "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". David says the law brings liberty also (PS 119:45).US: Scripture never states that we're grafted into Judaism. In fact that's the whole idea of Galations. GOD's law is good and man-made laws oppose His. We're grafted into Israel! We are part of the elect through the blood of Christ! I don't see the "ceremonial law" abolished as you have realized. There are certainly changes through the messiah's work, but GOD didn't make mistakes with His law. GOD tells us (Amos 3:7) that He will not make changes unless He reveals the changes through His prophets. Many of the changes that we Christians have assumed have absolutely no OT scriptural support. The NT supports the OT as James (Acts 15:15), the Bereans, Paul, etc show us.

MG wrote:US,..Isn't GOD's Word the same yesterday, today and forever!?

Thanks for your response MG

I was not grafted into Judaism.

Your hermenuetic would make all the ceremonial law still in effect because God's Word is the same yesterday, today, and forever.(not saying His Word changes but God clearly changes the way he deals with humans, the sign of the Noahic Covenant was a rainbow and God said nothing about circumcison, God put a mark of the murderer Cain so that no one would slay him, but told Noah who sheds man's blood by man shall his blood be shed)

If Paul is going to the synagogue to reach the Jews, it would make logical sense that he would be there on the Sabbath and not on first day of the week.

2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be DONE AWAY: 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 3:11 For if that which is DONE AWAY was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is DONE AWAY in Christ.

Thanks, Lurker, for your concern. It's appreciated.The two covenants, I believe, have been very misunderstood by us Christians. The law itself has never been the problem. It is truth, holy and spiritual! The problem lies in the people (us included) as Heb 8:7-9 and Rom 8:3 state.The law is integral to both covenants. The difference lies in the law being kept by the efforts of the flesh (Ishmael) vs the law being followed by transformed and redeemed people through the power of the Spirit (Isaac). It is flesh and legalism vs Spirit and faith. The law remains though, as Hebrews 10:16 reminds us. It doesn't give us eternal life, but it is the way of GOD's people.

US,The Sabbath is linked entirely with the Creation week (Genesis), and I find it quite likely that the patriarchs were "keeping Sabbath" even though we simply don't know. However, it's very interesting that the Sabbath comes up in Exodus BEFORE Sinai! Also of note is the wording in the 4th commandment: REMEMBER the Sabbath day.

It was (and is - is it not?) a sign between GOD and Israel. Romans tells us that we are grafted into Israel!!

Concerning the NT: Paul's custom was to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath. There's never any negative comment about this or the Sabbath in general - so why would we then say NOT to keep it. Isn't GOD's Word the same yesterday, today and forever!?

MG wrote:He never took the law away (Matthew 5), so I try to live the way He did. We all live - even today - in "the shadows". One day we will see Him as He truly is!

MG,I comment again out of concern. Yes, Jesus did take away the first covenant that He may establish the second, better, new covenant.

Zec 11:10-14 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. (read the chapter)

Beauty (Zion) and Bands (Sinai) are the two covenants Paul spoke of in Gal 4:21-31. See also Deut 29-30.

Bottom line; Jesus came as the first covenant, nailed that which was against us to His cross and ascended to the Father as the new covenant.

Some questions for all you Sabbath observers, no less than 3x God stated the Sabbath was a sign between Him and the children of Israel. If it was something intended from creation for everybody, why do we not see it anywhere in the book of Genesis, from Adam to Joseph? (the word sabbath is not found in Genesis) Why is it not mentioned in the book of Job? Why did none of the patriarchs observe it? In fact the children of Israel did not keep until after they left Egypt, which means it was not a matter that was being kept during their time of bondage.

Let us go further, remembering our Lord operated under the Old Testament economy (he told cleansed lepers to make sacrifices command by Moses, and said salvation is of the Jews and only sent to lost sheep of Israel) Why in the pastoral epistles in there no mention of exhorting believers to keep the sabbath? Other than a verse in Colossians why are the rest of the epistles silent about it? Why is it stated a future event in Hebrews 4:9?