A man who police say shot an officer before barricading himself in an Orlando apartment killed the four children he had been holding hostage before killing himself, police said Monday.
...
Court records show Lindsey, 35, had an extensive criminal history involving arson, battery and theft. He was on probation for several charges including arson.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

A man who police say shot an officer before barricading himself in an Orlando apartment killed the four children he had been holding hostage before killing himself, police said Monday.
...
Court records show Lindsey, 35, had an extensive criminal history involving arson, battery and theft. He was on probation for several charges including arson.

I'm not following your point. Clarification please? Are you presenting that as an example of (legitimate and lawful) self defense with a gun, or an example of something else?

You know what I think? I think he's an evil troll. I think this is nothing but an off-topic shenanigan. I think I'm on the report button to Darat right now. And I think HE's the one that's gonna get his butt suspended.

Or my name ain't Nathan Arizona.

"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

If that was the point, then I will readily concede that sometimes it can go bigly wrong. I assume everyone here already knows that.

Since no one was arguing against that point, I am curious why anyone would feel the need to bring it up in this particular thread, especially since it would then merely be the fallacy of "whataboutism" because it does not in any way detract from (or refute) the point of this thread.

Since Pyrrho does not have a history of making such mistakes, and often has useful insights to add to the conversation, I asked for clarification, especially since it was not immediately evident to me which part of his example could be called "self defense" use of a gun.

Sometimes people successfully defend themselves with a firearm. I assume everyone here already knows that, so I am curious what the point of this thread itself is.

"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

So all these anecdotes are to make the point that sometimes the firearm is used to threaten instead of kill? Again, not one I would expect to find disputed here, nor the idea that sometimes killing or threatening to is necessary for defense.

"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

gnome wrote:So all these anecdotes are to make the point that sometimes the firearm is used to threaten instead of kill? Again, not one I would expect to find disputed here, nor the idea that sometimes killing or threatening to is necessary for defense.

The answer to your question is in the OP so I am not sure why you are asking this question.

Detectives said the incident began when Hill robbed a Walmart liquor store, and attempted to flee in a silver Ford SUV. However, witnesses said the vehicle would not start, so he first tried to carjack Scott Reardean at knifepoint, cutting him on his arms and legs.

“I reached in between my glove box and my console, between my seats, reached down and got my weapon and brandished it for him,” Reardean told WJXT. “He was like, ‘Don’t shoot me.’ I was like, ‘Then get out of here.’”

Hill then jumped into the passenger seat of a woman’s car in a Starbucks drive-thru. Police said the woman got out of her car and grabbed a pistol from her trunk, pointing it at Hill until he ran off.

As a colonel advised: "Don't put your dick on an anvil and hand someone a hammer and complain about the results."

In that is much wisdom.

You can even bet your life on it.

In the rain.

--J.D.

Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club! "Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--DonDocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnomeWS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!!Stanley Cup!SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!35

gnome wrote:So all these anecdotes are to make the point that sometimes the firearm is used to threaten instead of kill? Again, not one I would expect to find disputed here, nor the idea that sometimes killing or threatening to is necessary for defense.

The answer to your question is in the OP so I am not sure why you are asking this question.

The only answer I found was "they don't always kill with the gun, sometimes they threaten instead". I'm asking if that's a distinction anyone here questions, to need to pile up examples?

"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

gnome wrote:So all these anecdotes are to make the point that sometimes the firearm is used to threaten instead of kill? Again, not one I would expect to find disputed here, nor the idea that sometimes killing or threatening to is necessary for defense.

The answer to your question is in the OP so I am not sure why you are asking this question.

The only answer I found was "they don't always kill with the gun, sometimes they threaten instead". I'm asking if that's a distinction anyone here questions, to need to pile up examples?

Yes, that "distinction" has been disputed and questioned here on this forum (and elsewhere). I clearly stated that in the opening post.

In general, some people have argued that because a gun's only purpose is to kill, no civilian should have one.

The obvious logical implication is that threatening with a gun in self defense is evil and should not be allowed.

The point of this thread is to demolish that argument.

Also, I would like to add a necessary qualification to your "answer". When done in self defense, threatening with a gun is legitimate and lawful. The very lethality of a gun is what makes it a more credible and effective threat form of self defense. And in the act of self defense, if the bad guy dies, then that too is also legitimate and lawful.