I've always wondered this. Are they self aware? It seems to me they must be to some extent anyway. If humans are 100% self aware I wonder what percentage your pets are. Or Sticks lol. (Bam! JK dog!) My cat gets mad when he doesn't like his food, and shows other signs of conscious thought. Other times he seems oblivious. I would love to know how much they experience, or not.

My understanding of animals like this is that they can learn and react but do not think.
I remember a guy by the name of Pavlov ringing a bell and feeding his dogs, then just ringing the bell and they would salivate. But thought, not to my learning. I'm sure all of the dog and cat owners will disagree. But don't confuse reaction to stimulus and inherent activity to thought.

I've always wondered this. Are they self aware? It seems to me they must be to some extent anyway. If humans are 100% self aware I wonder what percentage your pets are. Or Sticks lol. (Bam! JK dog!) My cat gets mad when he doesn't like his food, and shows other signs of conscious thought. Other times he seems oblivious. I would love to know how much they experience, or not.

My understanding of animals like this is that they can learn and react but do not think.
I remember a guy by the name of Pavlov ringing a bell and feeding his dogs, then just ringing the bell and they would salivate. But thought, not to my learning. I'm sure all of the dog and cat owners will disagree. But don't confuse reaction to stimulus and inherent activity to thought.

I don't know. My folks' Labradors are quite intelligent when it comes to food...

Merely an observation. And to be clear I said, 'I believe" and I stand by that.

People have beliefs, in many different things. I just happen to believe that most people don't understand what they are doing day to day. This argument could go on and on, but I figured so when I first made the statement.

A little story. I was taking the family dog for a walk in the large college grounds nearby. This mainly consists of two things - playing fetch and sniffing tours (where I give my arm a break).

Sometimes she gets caught up and I have to call her to come. On this occasion she was rolling on the ground. Then she'd get up and hurl herself back on to the ground for another roll. She was so absorbed I couldn't get her to come to me.

So I walked to her. I realised to my disgust that she had found a dead bird and she was rolling on it over and over. I said "Zara, get up! Rolling on a bird! What sort of damn fool thing is that to do!".

That got me thinking - what got into her? The pat answer would be "to mask her scent for hunting" but she never hunts. It's not a big deal to her. Then it struck me - this was about dog gossip!

Here's how I think it goes ....

She found a dead bird, no doubt a pretty cool thing in the dog world, given that dogs are both hunters and scavengers. So she gets a good dose of the scent on her. Then, when she next comes across another dog that scent is like her saying "I saw dead bird!". Then the dog would sniff and go "Wow! You saw dead bird! You cool dog!". I expect a few more sniffs would establish the rough location of the bird.

I'm pretty confident of this. Her next interaction with a dog (and wasn't she keen to show off her special smell) definitely focused on the smell on her back.

Yep, they have conscious thought, probably roughly on the level of humans before their second birthday. Since dad's dementia has increased I find that dealing with him and the dog to be strikingly similar. It's all about basic needs with a few quirky little wants.

I agree with ionthetable that many humans don't seem too flash at conscious thought but are competent at parroting what they read in the tabloids and hear on talkback radio.

If by conscious thought, you mean emotions, dogs definitely possess them. Or at least every dog I've owned or know gets mad, feels sad, gets confused, feels joy and excitement, or even shame. That's why they're such great companions, they mirror so much of what humans feel.

A little story. I was taking the family dog for a walk in the large college grounds nearby. This mainly consists of two things - playing fetch and sniffing tours (where I give my arm a break).

Sometimes she gets caught up and I have to call her to come. On this occasion she was rolling on the ground. Then she'd get up and hurl herself back on to the ground for another roll. She was so absorbed I couldn't get her to come to me.

So I walked to her. I realised to my disgust that she had found a dead bird and she was rolling on it over and over. I said "Zara, get up! Rolling on a bird! What sort of damn fool thing is that to do!".

That got me thinking - what got into her? The pat answer would be "to mask her scent for hunting" but she never hunts. It's not a big deal to her. Then it struck me - this was about dog gossip!

Here's how I think it goes ....

She found a dead bird, no doubt a pretty cool thing in the dog world, given that dogs are both hunters and scavengers. So she gets a good dose of the scent on her. Then, when she next comes across another dog that scent is like her saying "I saw dead bird!". Then the dog would sniff and go "Wow! You saw dead bird! You cool dog!". I expect a few more sniffs would establish the rough location of the bird.

I'm pretty confident of this. Her next interaction with a dog (and wasn't she keen to show off her special smell) definitely focused on the smell on her back.

Yep, they have conscious thought, probably roughly on the level of humans before their second birthday. Since dad's dementia has increased I find that dealing with him and the dog to be strikingly similar. It's all about basic needs with a few quirky little wants.

I agree with ionthetable that many humans don't seem too flash at conscious thought but are competent at parroting what they read in the tabloids and hear on talkback radio.

"Ionthetable" haha preferably pine ")

Anyhow, that's a really interesting observation Polly. Honestly, the thought of whether or not other creatures are concious doesn't fascinate me too much. But that doesnt mean I dont enjoy reading recounts of situations, such as the one you've presented.

On that note, I've observed many humans 'rolling around on a dead bird, just to satisfy their surrounding peers'

If by conscious thought, you mean emotions, dogs definitely possess them. Or at least every dog I've owned or know gets mad, feels sad, gets confused, feels joy and excitement, or even shame. That's why they're such great companions, they mirror so much of what humans feel.

Anyhow, that's a really interesting observation Polly. Honestly, the thought of whether or not other creatures are concious doesn't fascinate me too much. But that doesnt mean I dont enjoy reading recounts of situations, such as the one you've presented.

On that note, I've observed many humans 'rolling around on a dead bird, just to satisfy their surrounding peers'

Ion the Table ... has a ring to it, dunnit?

Yeah, there I think they do have conscious thought - it's all a matter of degree. They are just more present moment - they don't seem able to conceptualise, recall and project into the future as we do but they definitely think and strategise in a limited way in the present moment.

They see and understand the patterns of activity around them and adapt to them just as we do. It's beyond just classical conditioning.

If all animals have no conscious thought then why do they have differing levels of intelligence. What is the cognition difference between a dog and, say, a beetle? It's as profound as the difference between a human and a dog, maybe more so.

"They see and understand the patterns of activity around them and adapt to them just as we do. It's beyond just classical conditioning."

Adapt is the same as react. Again they can learn and have memory. If they see the same thing twice they will probably react the same way twice.

They have different levels of intelligence because they learn at different rates and retain different levels. Same as humans. Rats learn to rum mazes thru repetition. They use different signals to remember such as color, smell, sounds etc.

Human twins have been separated and although they have the same DNA, same ability to learn genetically, they learn at different rates depending on experiences. What separates us from the others is the ability to learn to think and have thought. There may be a fine line between cognitive thought and learning but humans that have been injured are said to be in a "vegetative state" This is harsh but they have lost their reasoning skills. As I said this is my opinion from my education classes, psychology and sociology classes. Feel free to develop your own opinion. You do have those reasoning skills.

Animals are not self-aware. They don't understand the concept of a self, or even know what a concept is. Animals do not reason; they are like computers. They take in data and follow a set of instructions (instincts). They react to something based on whether it gives them pleasure or pain.

Animals do not reason; they are like computers. They take in data and follow a set of instructions (instincts). They react to something based on whether it gives them pleasure or pain.

There are no levels of self-awareness: either you are, or you aren't.

I agree with this as long as you include humans. Pretty well everything people do relates to security, power / status, sex / passing on genes and hedonistic pleasure ... just that we do it in a more fancy, roundabout way.

I've had dogs that seem to make decisions, or at least they try to exercise their will until I make enough demands. So I say dogs can reason, though they're not always reasonable.

Bermuda

This from Wikipedia. Only an excerpt but again there is nothing definitive since they can't speak.

While humans have had differing views of animal emotion, the scientific examination of animal emotion has led to little information beyond a recognition that animals have the capacity for pain and fear, and such responses as are needed for survival

This from Wikipedia. Only an excerpt but again there is nothing definitive since they can't speak.

While humans have had differing views of animal emotion, the scientific examination of animal emotion has led to little information beyond a recognition that animals have the capacity for pain and fear, and such responses as are needed for survival

And happiness, affection, playfulness, expectancy, sulking ... pretty well anything a toddler can throw at you.

Plenty of pet owners will agree with this and we're not all anthropomorphising.

The difference is, our thoughts bring shame. That's why we needed fig leaves, then robes to hide ourselves from our own thoughts. When you start to see dolphins swimming around with skirts on (or apes for that matter), then we can start to worry.

IMO, brains are brains and I don't think they function all that different from one another. Not sure why our brains are so much bigger, but it certainly has its advantages.

They are just more present moment - they don't seem able to conceptualise, recall and project into the future as we do but they definitely think and strategise in a limited way in the present moment.

They see and understand the patterns of activity around them and adapt to them just as we do. It's beyond just classical conditioning.

Although I agree Pol, that dogs are centred mainly on the moment, I certainly think they remember things from the past, apply them to the present, &, through recognition of patterns, project into the future, at least as far as the confines of a day. A simple example of a dog remembering that a family member comes home at a certain time. That's not instinct. Of course, you can go as deeply into this as you want, but I do have examples by way of personal experience where one of my dogs has acted in a way that can only mean it's weighed up the facts, & taken a decision to act outside of habit or instinct.

Although I agree Pol, that dogs are centred mainly on the moment, I certainly think they remember things from the past, apply them to the present, &, through recognition of patterns, project into the future, at least as far as the confines of a day. A simple example of a dog remembering that a family member comes home at a certain time. That's not instinct. Of course, you can go as deeply into this as you want, but I do have examples by way of personal experience where one of my dogs has acted in a way that can only mean it's weighed up the facts, & taken a decision to act outside of habit or instinct.

Agreed. Habits are learned. Acting to someone coming home is learned. They do have memory.which they use through the recognition of patterns. But this again is just a reaction.

Although I agree Pol, that dogs are centred mainly on the moment, I certainly think they remember things from the past, apply them to the present, &, through recognition of patterns, project into the future, at least as far as the confines of a day. A simple example of a dog remembering that a family member comes home at a certain time. That's not instinct. Of course, you can go as deeply into this as you want, but I do have examples by way of personal experience where one of my dogs has acted in a way that can only mean it's weighed up the facts, & taken a decision to act outside of habit or instinct.

This is simple association. Over time, the dog associates someone coming home on a regular basis to how light it is outside, or to how hungry it is. The dog seems to be happy because it associates the arrival of this person to food, or petting, or something else that gives it pleasure.