Outhouse Drafter

fieldy snuts wrote:If Cyclops is such a good hand to hand fighter and overall superior character........

Why doesn't he have 10 books like Wolverine?

Give it time. Cyclops is currently featured in All-New and Uncanny X-Men. Soon, the Marvel Universe will come to realize that he was right all along, apologize to him, and after he accepts that apology he will probably join one of the Avengers teams. Marvel has been teasing that 2014 will be the "Death of Wolverine" so a certain headmaster position will probably be available again soon, meaning Wolverine and the X-Men will probably become Cyclops and the X-Men. Eventually, he will get his own book and it probably won't be long before he replaces Beast on the Illuminati since he is the face and leader of mutants in the Marvel Universe. I would say that by 2015, Cyclops will headline at least 6 books and that's assuming that he doesn't also decide that he wants to travel into space and join the Guardians of the Galaxy or the Starjammers for awhile.

Outhouse Drafter

fieldy snuts wrote:If Cyclops is such a good hand to hand fighter and overall superior character........

Why doesn't he have 10 books like Wolverine?

Give it time. Cyclops is currently featured in All-New and Uncanny X-Men. Soon, the Marvel Universe will come to realize that he was right all along, apologize to him, and after he accepts that apology he will probably join one of the Avengers teams. Marvel has been teasing that 2014 will be the "Death of Wolverine" so a certain headmaster position will probably be available again soon, meaning Wolverine and the X-Men will probably become Cyclops and the X-Men. Eventually, he will get his own book and it probably won't be long before he replaces Beast on the Illuminati since he is the face and leader of mutants in the Marvel Universe. I would say that by 2015, Cyclops will headline at least 6 books and that's assuming that he doesn't also decide that he wants to travel into space and join the Guardians of the Galaxy or the Starjammers for awhile.

OMCTO

Grayson wrote:Give it time. Cyclops is currently featured in All-New and Uncanny X-Men. Soon, the Marvel Universe will come to realize that he was right all along, apologize to him, and after he accepts that apology he will probably join one of the Avengers teams. Marvel has been teasing that 2014 will be the "Death of Wolverine" so a certain headmaster position will probably be available again soon, meaning Wolverine and the X-Men will probably become Cyclops and the X-Men. Eventually, he will get his own book and it probably won't be long before he replaces Beast on the Illuminati since he is the face and leader of mutants in the Marvel Universe. I would say that by 2015, Cyclops will headline at least 6 books and that's assuming that he doesn't also decide that he wants to travel into space and join the Guardians of the Galaxy or the Starjammers for awhile.

OMCTO

Grayson wrote:Give it time. Cyclops is currently featured in All-New and Uncanny X-Men. Soon, the Marvel Universe will come to realize that he was right all along, apologize to him, and after he accepts that apology he will probably join one of the Avengers teams. Marvel has been teasing that 2014 will be the "Death of Wolverine" so a certain headmaster position will probably be available again soon, meaning Wolverine and the X-Men will probably become Cyclops and the X-Men. Eventually, he will get his own book and it probably won't be long before he replaces Beast on the Illuminati since he is the face and leader of mutants in the Marvel Universe. I would say that by 2015, Cyclops will headline at least 6 books and that's assuming that he doesn't also decide that he wants to travel into space and join the Guardians of the Galaxy or the Starjammers for awhile.

Rain Partier

Grayson wrote:Give it time. Cyclops is currently featured in All-New and Uncanny X-Men. Soon, the Marvel Universe will come to realize that he was right all along, apologize to him, and after he accepts that apology he will probably join one of the Avengers teams. Marvel has been teasing that 2014 will be the "Death of Wolverine" so a certain headmaster position will probably be available again soon, meaning Wolverine and the X-Men will probably become Cyclops and the X-Men. Eventually, he will get his own book and it probably won't be long before he replaces Beast on the Illuminati since he is the face and leader of mutants in the Marvel Universe. I would say that by 2015, Cyclops will headline at least 6 books and that's assuming that he doesn't also decide that he wants to travel into space and join the Guardians of the Galaxy or the Starjammers for awhile.

Only flaw here and I think you have something of a good possible storyline is that I still feel that Chuck powers or not will be back as headmaster. It was Scott who pretty much kicked chuck to the curb and I feel this is more likely the way to get the Dream back.

Rain Partier

Grayson wrote:Give it time. Cyclops is currently featured in All-New and Uncanny X-Men. Soon, the Marvel Universe will come to realize that he was right all along, apologize to him, and after he accepts that apology he will probably join one of the Avengers teams. Marvel has been teasing that 2014 will be the "Death of Wolverine" so a certain headmaster position will probably be available again soon, meaning Wolverine and the X-Men will probably become Cyclops and the X-Men. Eventually, he will get his own book and it probably won't be long before he replaces Beast on the Illuminati since he is the face and leader of mutants in the Marvel Universe. I would say that by 2015, Cyclops will headline at least 6 books and that's assuming that he doesn't also decide that he wants to travel into space and join the Guardians of the Galaxy or the Starjammers for awhile.

Only flaw here and I think you have something of a good possible storyline is that I still feel that Chuck powers or not will be back as headmaster. It was Scott who pretty much kicked chuck to the curb and I feel this is more likely the way to get the Dream back.

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Rain Partier

Grayson wrote:Give it time. Cyclops is currently featured in All-New and Uncanny X-Men. Soon, the Marvel Universe will come to realize that he was right all along, apologize to him, and after he accepts that apology he will probably join one of the Avengers teams. Marvel has been teasing that 2014 will be the "Death of Wolverine" so a certain headmaster position will probably be available again soon, meaning Wolverine and the X-Men will probably become Cyclops and the X-Men. Eventually, he will get his own book and it probably won't be long before he replaces Beast on the Illuminati since he is the face and leader of mutants in the Marvel Universe. I would say that by 2015, Cyclops will headline at least 6 books and that's assuming that he doesn't also decide that he wants to travel into space and join the Guardians of the Galaxy or the Starjammers for awhile.

but you could write all those stories with wolverine and sell even more units.

Rain Partier

Grayson wrote:Give it time. Cyclops is currently featured in All-New and Uncanny X-Men. Soon, the Marvel Universe will come to realize that he was right all along, apologize to him, and after he accepts that apology he will probably join one of the Avengers teams. Marvel has been teasing that 2014 will be the "Death of Wolverine" so a certain headmaster position will probably be available again soon, meaning Wolverine and the X-Men will probably become Cyclops and the X-Men. Eventually, he will get his own book and it probably won't be long before he replaces Beast on the Illuminati since he is the face and leader of mutants in the Marvel Universe. I would say that by 2015, Cyclops will headline at least 6 books and that's assuming that he doesn't also decide that he wants to travel into space and join the Guardians of the Galaxy or the Starjammers for awhile.

but you could write all those stories with wolverine and sell even more units.

Outhouse Drafter

bkthomson wrote:Only flaw here and I think you have something of a good possible storyline is that I still feel that Chuck powers or not will be back as headmaster. It was Scott who pretty much kicked chuck to the curb and I feel this is more likely the way to get the Dream back.

You bring up a good point but I don't think that anybody is really in a rush to bring Xavier back. Wasn't part of the reason why he was killed because writers weren't using him and they were finding it hard to come up with reasons to include him? I have no doubt that somebody will eventually bring him back but it will be later rather than sooner.

fieldy snuts wrote:but you could write all those stories with wolverine and sell even more units.

Shhhh! Don't give them that idea!

Wolverine won't be on any teams next year because he will be dead and the children of the Marvel Universe will rejoice because they will finally be safe.

Outhouse Drafter

bkthomson wrote:Only flaw here and I think you have something of a good possible storyline is that I still feel that Chuck powers or not will be back as headmaster. It was Scott who pretty much kicked chuck to the curb and I feel this is more likely the way to get the Dream back.

You bring up a good point but I don't think that anybody is really in a rush to bring Xavier back. Wasn't part of the reason why he was killed because writers weren't using him and they were finding it hard to come up with reasons to include him? I have no doubt that somebody will eventually bring him back but it will be later rather than sooner.

fieldy snuts wrote:but you could write all those stories with wolverine and sell even more units.

Shhhh! Don't give them that idea!

Wolverine won't be on any teams next year because he will be dead and the children of the Marvel Universe will rejoice because they will finally be safe.

YOU WILL NEED A NURSE

Grayson wrote:Give it time. Cyclops is currently featured in All-New and Uncanny X-Men. Soon, the Marvel Universe will come to realize that he was right all along, apologize to him, and after he accepts that apology he will probably join one of the Avengers teams. Marvel has been teasing that 2014 will be the "Death of Wolverine" so a certain headmaster position will probably be available again soon, meaning Wolverine and the X-Men will probably become Cyclops and the X-Men. Eventually, he will get his own book and it probably won't be long before he replaces Beast on the Illuminati since he is the face and leader of mutants in the Marvel Universe. I would say that by 2015, Cyclops will headline at least 6 books and that's assuming that he doesn't also decide that he wants to travel into space and join the Guardians of the Galaxy or the Starjammers for awhile.

If Cyclops can get his own cartoon, videogames and solo movie then we will be in agreement here.

YOU WILL NEED A NURSE

Grayson wrote:Give it time. Cyclops is currently featured in All-New and Uncanny X-Men. Soon, the Marvel Universe will come to realize that he was right all along, apologize to him, and after he accepts that apology he will probably join one of the Avengers teams. Marvel has been teasing that 2014 will be the "Death of Wolverine" so a certain headmaster position will probably be available again soon, meaning Wolverine and the X-Men will probably become Cyclops and the X-Men. Eventually, he will get his own book and it probably won't be long before he replaces Beast on the Illuminati since he is the face and leader of mutants in the Marvel Universe. I would say that by 2015, Cyclops will headline at least 6 books and that's assuming that he doesn't also decide that he wants to travel into space and join the Guardians of the Galaxy or the Starjammers for awhile.

If Cyclops can get his own cartoon, videogames and solo movie then we will be in agreement here.

YOU WILL NEED A NURSE

Grayson wrote:Earlier you mentioned that in the past, Cyclops has relied a little too heavily on his powers. Wolverine can only take punches from guys like that because over the years he has been given a ridiculously over inflated healing factor. You want to talk about somebody relying on their powers, Wolverine is a prime example. If Wolverine didn't have his powers he would be in just as much trouble as Cyclops or anybody else who had the misfortune of being on the business end on a character like the Hulk's fists.

Wolverine loses his shit if he stubs his toe or if the wind blows from the wrong direction. Yes, he is a good fighter but part of being a great fighter is actually being able to maintain your composure and out think an opponent who may be more skilled than you. Yes, Wolverine may be more skilled when it comes to physical combat but Scott's tactical expertise is definitely in the top tier in the Marvel Universe. At the end of the day, while we have established the fact that there is no single precedent for where Cyclops gets the recognition that he does for being a great fighter, I would honestly say that people possibly attribute his ability to out think and out maneuver his opponent with his ability as a fighter.

-I see what you're saying and all but the reason why I brought those points up is not to highlight Wolverine's healing factor but to point out that Wolverine has one advantage that Cyclops will never have: endurance. Wolverine may not have finesse or refinement in his combat skills but the little guy can take a lot of punishment and that is a major advantage in a fight. An opponent who may have little finesse or technique but high endurance can beat an opponent who has lots of finesse or technique but low endurance-and we all know Scott can't take as much physical punishment as Logan can.If you were to put Scott and Logan in a UFC match without their powers, it would basically go like this: Scott would get some hits in and out maneuvre Wolverine for awhile but Logan won't go down easily unless Scott finds a way to put Wolverine in a submission hold and choke him out-which again will be hard to do. After awhile, Scott-if he's unable to take Logan out by then-will get tired while Logan won't. And at this point Scott is fucked as Logan is then going to deliver the knockout blow or put Scott in a chokehold and force him to tap out. This is not to knock Scott as a fighter but this is how I could honestly see a fight with him and Logan going without their powers involved.

YOU WILL NEED A NURSE

Grayson wrote:Earlier you mentioned that in the past, Cyclops has relied a little too heavily on his powers. Wolverine can only take punches from guys like that because over the years he has been given a ridiculously over inflated healing factor. You want to talk about somebody relying on their powers, Wolverine is a prime example. If Wolverine didn't have his powers he would be in just as much trouble as Cyclops or anybody else who had the misfortune of being on the business end on a character like the Hulk's fists.

Wolverine loses his shit if he stubs his toe or if the wind blows from the wrong direction. Yes, he is a good fighter but part of being a great fighter is actually being able to maintain your composure and out think an opponent who may be more skilled than you. Yes, Wolverine may be more skilled when it comes to physical combat but Scott's tactical expertise is definitely in the top tier in the Marvel Universe. At the end of the day, while we have established the fact that there is no single precedent for where Cyclops gets the recognition that he does for being a great fighter, I would honestly say that people possibly attribute his ability to out think and out maneuver his opponent with his ability as a fighter.

-I see what you're saying and all but the reason why I brought those points up is not to highlight Wolverine's healing factor but to point out that Wolverine has one advantage that Cyclops will never have: endurance. Wolverine may not have finesse or refinement in his combat skills but the little guy can take a lot of punishment and that is a major advantage in a fight. An opponent who may have little finesse or technique but high endurance can beat an opponent who has lots of finesse or technique but low endurance-and we all know Scott can't take as much physical punishment as Logan can.If you were to put Scott and Logan in a UFC match without their powers, it would basically go like this: Scott would get some hits in and out maneuvre Wolverine for awhile but Logan won't go down easily unless Scott finds a way to put Wolverine in a submission hold and choke him out-which again will be hard to do. After awhile, Scott-if he's unable to take Logan out by then-will get tired while Logan won't. And at this point Scott is fucked as Logan is then going to deliver the knockout blow or put Scott in a chokehold and force him to tap out. This is not to knock Scott as a fighter but this is how I could honestly see a fight with him and Logan going without their powers involved.

YOU WILL NEED A NURSE

In terms of fighting skills, I would probably say that Scott is probably a little bit over Punisher and somewhere in-between Moon Knight and Nick Fury. Forget the Nightwing comparison I said earlier by the way.

In terms of fighting skills, I would probably say that Scott is probably a little bit over Punisher and somewhere in-between Moon Knight and Nick Fury. Forget the Nightwing comparison I said earlier by the way.

Outhouse Drafter

draco x wrote:-I see what you're saying and all but the reason why I brought those points up is not to highlight Wolverine's healing factor but to point out that Wolverine has one advantage that Cyclops will never have: endurance. Wolverine may not have finesse or refinement in his combat skills but the little guy can take a lot of punishment and that is a major advantage in a fight. An opponent who may have little finesse or technique but high endurance can beat an opponent who has lots of finesse or technique but low endurance-and we all know Scott can't take as much physical punishment as Logan can.If you were to put Scott and Logan in a UFC match without their powers, it would basically go like this: Scott would get some hits in and out maneuvre Wolverine for awhile but Logan won't go down easily unless Scott finds a way to put Wolverine in a submission hold and choke him out-which again will be hard to do. After awhile, Scott-if he's unable to take Logan out by then-will get tired while Logan won't. And at this point Scott is fucked as Logan is then going to deliver the knockout blow or put Scott in a chokehold and force him to tap out. This is not to knock Scott as a fighter but this is how I could honestly see a fight with him and Logan going without their powers involved.

As ridiculous as this thread has become, the bolded portion of your statement pretty much negates the rest of your argument. If Scott and Wolverine were in a UFC style match or hell, any type of fight, without their powers, Wolverine loses his advantage in the endurance category. The only reason that Wolverine ever had that advantage in the first place is because of his healing factor. So you have a person like Scott who has trained to fight for years without a healing factor against a guy like Wolverine who has relied on his healing factor to provide him the extra endurance that he has and who now is suddenly without it.

Outhouse Drafter

draco x wrote:-I see what you're saying and all but the reason why I brought those points up is not to highlight Wolverine's healing factor but to point out that Wolverine has one advantage that Cyclops will never have: endurance. Wolverine may not have finesse or refinement in his combat skills but the little guy can take a lot of punishment and that is a major advantage in a fight. An opponent who may have little finesse or technique but high endurance can beat an opponent who has lots of finesse or technique but low endurance-and we all know Scott can't take as much physical punishment as Logan can.If you were to put Scott and Logan in a UFC match without their powers, it would basically go like this: Scott would get some hits in and out maneuvre Wolverine for awhile but Logan won't go down easily unless Scott finds a way to put Wolverine in a submission hold and choke him out-which again will be hard to do. After awhile, Scott-if he's unable to take Logan out by then-will get tired while Logan won't. And at this point Scott is fucked as Logan is then going to deliver the knockout blow or put Scott in a chokehold and force him to tap out. This is not to knock Scott as a fighter but this is how I could honestly see a fight with him and Logan going without their powers involved.

As ridiculous as this thread has become, the bolded portion of your statement pretty much negates the rest of your argument. If Scott and Wolverine were in a UFC style match or hell, any type of fight, without their powers, Wolverine loses his advantage in the endurance category. The only reason that Wolverine ever had that advantage in the first place is because of his healing factor. So you have a person like Scott who has trained to fight for years without a healing factor against a guy like Wolverine who has relied on his healing factor to provide him the extra endurance that he has and who now is suddenly without it.

YOU WILL NEED A NURSE

As ridiculous as this thread has become, the bolded portion of your statement pretty much negates the rest of your argument. If Scott and Wolverine were in a UFC style match or hell, any type of fight, without their powers, Wolverine loses his advantage in the endurance category. The only reason that Wolverine ever had that advantage in the first place is because of his healing factor. So you have a person like Scott who has trained to fight for years without a healing factor against a guy like Wolverine who has relied on his healing factor to provide him the extra endurance that he has and who now is suddenly without it.

So you conviently chosen to forget all the military and martial arts training Wolverine had in his lifetime in favor of trying to make Scott look good then? You say Scott has trained for many years, so did Logan, given the fact that he spent a lot of his life in Japan and various places around the world-unlike Scott.I don't disagree that Logan's healing factor has helped him out a lot fightwise but to say that without that or his adamantium that Scott could take him down just like that shows a serious flaw in your reasoning. As I have said Scott can outhink or outsmart Logan but there's no way he can outfight him period.

YOU WILL NEED A NURSE

As ridiculous as this thread has become, the bolded portion of your statement pretty much negates the rest of your argument. If Scott and Wolverine were in a UFC style match or hell, any type of fight, without their powers, Wolverine loses his advantage in the endurance category. The only reason that Wolverine ever had that advantage in the first place is because of his healing factor. So you have a person like Scott who has trained to fight for years without a healing factor against a guy like Wolverine who has relied on his healing factor to provide him the extra endurance that he has and who now is suddenly without it.

So you conviently chosen to forget all the military and martial arts training Wolverine had in his lifetime in favor of trying to make Scott look good then? You say Scott has trained for many years, so did Logan, given the fact that he spent a lot of his life in Japan and various places around the world-unlike Scott.I don't disagree that Logan's healing factor has helped him out a lot fightwise but to say that without that or his adamantium that Scott could take him down just like that shows a serious flaw in your reasoning. As I have said Scott can outhink or outsmart Logan but there's no way he can outfight him period.

Outhouse Drafter

draco x wrote:So you conviently chosen to forget all the military and martial arts training Wolverine had in his lifetime in favor of trying to make Scott look good then? You say Scott has trained for many years, so did Logan, given the fact that he spent a lot of his life in Japan and various places around the world-unlike Scott.I don't disagree that Logan's healing factor has helped him out a lot fightwise but to say that without that or his adamantium that Scott could take him down just like that shows a serious flaw in your reasoning. As I have said Scott can outhink or outsmart Logan but there's no way he can outfight him period.

No, I haven't forgotten Wolverine's military or martial arts training. In fact, go back and reread my posts in this thread if you want. On the first page I mentioned that Wolverine is probably the only person on the X-Men who is actually more experienced than Scott. Even when I was pointing out all the things that Scott is better at than Wolverine, I never took anything away from Wolverine's fighting capabilities. All I have done in this thread is point out Wolverine's tendency to loss his composure when he gets angry and his over reliance on his healing abilities. Hell, I have never actually said that Scott could definitively beat Wolverine.

I think my reasoning is pretty sound in the fact that smarter fighters can and do outfight fighters who are technically more skilled than them. It happens in real life and there is no reason to believe that it couldn't happen in comics as well.

Outhouse Drafter

draco x wrote:So you conviently chosen to forget all the military and martial arts training Wolverine had in his lifetime in favor of trying to make Scott look good then? You say Scott has trained for many years, so did Logan, given the fact that he spent a lot of his life in Japan and various places around the world-unlike Scott.I don't disagree that Logan's healing factor has helped him out a lot fightwise but to say that without that or his adamantium that Scott could take him down just like that shows a serious flaw in your reasoning. As I have said Scott can outhink or outsmart Logan but there's no way he can outfight him period.

No, I haven't forgotten Wolverine's military or martial arts training. In fact, go back and reread my posts in this thread if you want. On the first page I mentioned that Wolverine is probably the only person on the X-Men who is actually more experienced than Scott. Even when I was pointing out all the things that Scott is better at than Wolverine, I never took anything away from Wolverine's fighting capabilities. All I have done in this thread is point out Wolverine's tendency to loss his composure when he gets angry and his over reliance on his healing abilities. Hell, I have never actually said that Scott could definitively beat Wolverine.

I think my reasoning is pretty sound in the fact that smarter fighters can and do outfight fighters who are technically more skilled than them. It happens in real life and there is no reason to believe that it couldn't happen in comics as well.