Any thread in which there's a sniff of religion will envitably 'flourish', because there will always be handful of posters who can't resist saying their piece. As has been said below, it's your responsibility to stop yourself from posting. And i'm not convinced by those claiming to be offended by the subject matter, as they seem to be first in the queue to get involved. Aside from all of that, the subject is incredibly boring, as the same banal arguments are regurgitated. It's more interesting reading threads about drum racks.

You'd think that someone has suggested that the whole site be re-dedicated to religious discussions. I don't see anything wrong with the occasional thread about the subject popping up from time to time. One little thread isn't going to force people to stop talking about ride-cymbal technique or double-bass-drum speed or whatever.

I think, in the end, that the Christian Drummers Get All The Work thread is the only one that really offended people, be they atheists, of another religion, Christians who disagreed, or Christians who got insulted by other people in that thread. This happened because that thread became a full-blown religious discussion, with nothing about drumming after the first few posts. Not good, and I don't think we should have that again.

With that said, a lot of religious drummers, and it seems that especially Christian drummers, believe that their drumming comes from God, should be used for God, etc. There is no reason to say they can't express that. In a thread about "what motivates you to drum," if the answer is "God," then that person should be allowed to express that. And should have the ability to express that without getting banned, or without having every atheist drummer jump down his throat and call him an idiot.

So I think that purely religious discussions should be banned from here, and those posts that are purely religious, without relating to drumming, should be deleted. That way, when the conversation goes:

Person 1: All this bad stuff has happened lately, I feel like God might be telling me to quit drumming.
Person 2: Nah, stick with it, man, we all have hard times.
Person 3: God doesn't exist, so no.
Person 4: Person 3 is an idiot, and will burn in hell
Person 5: Hey man, no worries, if you love drumming, you'll stay with it.

Person 3 and 4 would have their posts deleted, and be given warnings (which can lead to bannings), but the actual discussion, about what the drummer is feeling, related to drumming, can stay.

This allows for stuff like, "Question about drumming in church," "Here are pics of the new kit at my church," "I play Christian rock," and stuff like that, but leave out, "If you don't know Jesus, you will burn in flames for all eternity, loser," or "If you believe in God you're an idiot and when worms are eating you, you will have wasted your pitiful life, loser."

Thank you very much. You nailed it. That was the meaning for my posting this thread. I just wish that I was as literate as you.

There are somethings that people don't want others discussing. The whole thing speaks (doublespeaks) of Orwell. Banning discussions. What's next banning books? That Drum Wisdom book, people are starting to talk about it and I don't like that book. I think I'll go on and make some comments that are snide and sarcastic, you know that take cheap shots at people. Then I'll leave.

I said what I wanted on the religious thread and then went back from time to time to see if it had gone anywhere. One of the posters was Bernard, and he made several interesting points. Ultimately, it is up to Bernard anyway. I think people just need to grow up and realize that open and free discussion means hearing things you don't like. And if you don't like it, don't post and go to another thread to start your own discussion.

I don't understand why there is an issue?
People who want to discuss religion can do so, people who don't want to discuss religion don't have to. In the end the people throwing random rude remarks will be policed and belittled by those who are actually interested in the discussion.

Any thread in which there's a sniff of religion will envitably 'flourish', because there will always be handful of posters who can't resist saying their piece. As has been said below, it's your responsibility to stop yourself from posting. And i'm not convinced by those claiming to be offended by the subject matter, as they seem to be first in the queue to get involved. Aside from all of that, the subject is incredibly boring, as the same banal arguments are regurgitated. It's more interesting reading threads about drum racks.

I was an atheist till 47. Being a scientist makes it difficult to be a person of faith. I did note however that Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. have been one of the few venues that have systematically encourage peace, love, and tried to help people find their humanity. Oddly enough a "sprititual" and "prophetic" experience got me pondering my own spiritual nature. Something I had a difficult time dealing with to be honest because being a scientist I am skeptical by nature. I explored many faiths, and perhaps due to my culture and in particular my wife's beliefs I did settle into Christianity of sorts. As a biologist I also believe there is a biological aspect to spirituality. The ancestors to modern man practiced ritual burials-a hint towards spirituality. I tend to think it serves both a biological and evolutionary role in our growth just as much as science. The same ability of logic and reason of modern man gave rise to both religion and science to address different domains of life an different issues. Almost all cultures throughout history have powerful spiritual aspects. I always liked Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth, because spirituality has driven music, art, science, culture, and our society. 98% of the people of this planet are peoples of faith. It would also make biological sense that there will be those who lack or don't need this spirituality. Much as many believe homosexuality is biological and another variant of human sexuality-religions probably are similar. Having spent a greater part of my life as an atheist I appreciate this mentality (and to be honest I was jaded in this regard), but now I truly appreciate spirituality and how it can help people cope and inspires many. Further there are many parallels in most religions and perhaps there is a cosmic force, cosmic consciousness, and something other than a simple biological understanding. In any case I respect others beliefs as I would hope other respect mine. I am not saying I'm right but being "right" isn't what it is about-is it. Peace and love and being human and not just another animal on this planet is what I aspire. We are the only animal to try to understand life, our planet, and the universe. I am always struck how insignificant we are in this huge expanse of the universe, and what lies beyond the universe (the universe is expanding into what??). I do believe music is very spiritual and it is a universal language that needs no translators. I think it best to leave poltics and religion at the door and lets talk about our universal language-music.

..... this is less a thread on religion as it is a thread concerning the forum.

Indeed, it is. My outlook on it is, this is Bernhard's house. He has house rules. He and the mods, NJ and DB do a terrific job of hosting. If they want to be lenient with those rules, from time to time, enjoy their hospitality. Don't abuse it. I hear the terms "freedom of speech", "censorship", etc., being thrown around. Funny, I don't recall Drummerworld being a democracy. Don't recall it having a "Constitution" guaranteeing us anything. It's Bernhard's dime. So I don't think we are protected by "freedom of speech". People who want a really, really, really long leash can (for $5 a month) start up a typepad blog and rant morning, noon, and night about any and all the taboo subjects (religion, gun control, abortion, politics, etc). On your dime, do whatever you want to do. On Bernhard's time, please respect the man. He's payin' something like $3.5K a month to throw this party.

__________________
This seat does not recline as per Federal Aviation Regulation 121.310 (f)(3)

To say my piece, as with any other post. Remember that this is less a thread on religion as it is a thread concerning the forum.

That is the subtle distinction, isn't it? Religion is the example of the free and open exchange of ideas. I think that bringing in extra-drumming ideas is good. Drumming is often about these things, and we can all see that it is certainly about politics. Behind this discussion is more of the same political maneuvering that the thread is about.

Who gets to say what is appropriate? What happens if I don't like what you're saying? One thing for sure is that the forum does not police itself. You could ask someone "why is your head is up your ass," and the other posters won't say anything. In the words of Neil Peart, "even if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." If you decide not to bring in the ideas or to banish them, you are making a choice about these ideas based on your own personal feelings. If you decide to advocate against their inclusion are you not doing the same?

Many good posits made, but since it is highly likely we will never exhaust the subject of music and drumming, then why clutter the topic with diversions that are neither here nor there. I don't think it is about freedom of speech, blah,blah, blah, but about being on topic. This is Drummerworld-the topic-drums, drumming, and perscussion. I think this topic alone can be volatile enough without adding extracurricular topics. I love Drummerworld. What a resource and wealth of info and super nice folks-like Bernhard. He has made a wonderful contribution to the world of music and drumming. Very inspirational.

Yes, talking about most anything with a wide range of personalities from all over the world is certainly volatile. Let's remember that the thread that was most volatile thread this week was not the Christianity thread, but the one on jazz.

Yes, talking about most anything with a wide range of personalities from all over the world is certainly volatile. Let's remember that the thread that was most volatile thread this week was not the Christianity thread, but the one on jazz.

That's because God hates jazz. (Easy, I am WAY kidding here!!)
But seriously folks, I don't think God cares about drumming any more than he cares about athletes winning games, etc. (My opinion). So maybe this is not the place to discuss anything irrelevant to DRUMS and DRUMMING?

That's because God hates jazz. (Easy, I am WAY kidding here!!)
But seriously folks, I don't think God cares about drumming any more than he cares about athletes winning games, etc. (My opinion). So maybe this is not the place to discuss anything irrelevant to DRUMS and DRUMMING?

I don't mean to over belabor a point; but can you see that your post exemplifies what I have been saying? You don't think that God is involved with drumming or running a race for that matter, so you don't think this is the place to discuss it. It is a decision (your opinion) that you have made based on personal feelings and beliefs. And I am happy that you have made that decision. It is a great decision.

But what about somebody who has not made that decision or come to that conclusion? What about somebody who differs and believes that God is the reason why they drum or run? Is not their decision just as great for them as yours is for you? Is not excluding those ideas discriminatory against that person?

Let's remember that the thread that was most volatile thread this week was not the Christianity thread, but the one on jazz.

That was because (as is always the case when the discussion turns to jazz) there were so many adamant posts made by people who don't know what they're talking about, people who somehow think that it's a sort of birthright they have as drummers to have some "knowledge," something relevant to say about a kind of music they've obviously never really played.
You don't know jazz unless you play it. Period. It's not in books. It's not in magazine articles.
Anyway, why would anybody want to play jazz anymore? There's no money in it, no fame. You want to kill your career? Call yourself a jazz drummer.
I don't participate in any of the metal threads because I don't know anything about that, but as soon as a jazz thread comes up everybody walks in acting as though they're seasoned pros, talking about "Elvin" and "Tony." Oh yeah, Buddy Rich gets mentioned a lot too.
Between jazz and religion I'd rather talk about religion. At least the Christians know what they're talking about where their religion is concerned!

The Inquisition (What a show)
The Inquisition (Here we go)
We know youre wishing that we'd go away
So come on all you ----s and you -----s
We got some good news for all of yous
You'd better change your point of views today
Cause the inquisitions here and its here to say.

There are plenty of religious forums online. Go there if you want to discuss religion. I like www.mindusion.com
I come here to discuss drums. I don't know why this topic isn't locked yet. Everyone should just ignore this thread and go on to discuss drums. I am an atheist and very interested in religion and discuss it all the time, but I don't want to get into it while I'm discussing drums. Actually, my drum teacher is a devout christian and is a gospel drummer. He doesn't preach and just teaches drums. If he started preaching, I would leave. I'm sure EVERYONE on here feels the same way. Atheists, agnostics, and theists all come here to discuss DRUMS, not the afterlife. The only reason why these threads stay alive is because religion is a hot subject and everyone needs to put their 2 cents in. If there's a mod online, please delete this...

There are plenty of religious forums online. Go there if you want to discuss religion. I like www.mindusion.com
I come here to discuss drums. I don't know why this topic isn't locked yet. Everyone should just ignore this thread and go on to discuss drums. I am an atheist and very interested in religion and discuss it all the time, but I don't want to get into it while I'm discussing drums. Actually, my drum teacher is a devout christian and is a gospel drummer. He doesn't preach and just teaches drums. If he started preaching, I would leave. I'm sure EVERYONE on here feels the same way. Atheists, agnostics, and theists all come here to discuss DRUMS, not the afterlife. The only reason why these threads stay alive is because religion is a hot subject and everyone needs to put their 2 cents in. If there's a mod online, please delete this...

If religion is, as you say, a "hot subject" then why can't it be discussed among drummers? I find the idea that all drummers have to talk about is what kind of heads they like to use to be a little insulting. You mean that as a drummer all I'm supposed to think about is what my next ride cymbal will be?
None of the the musicians I hang out with ever talk about music. We talk about politics, religion, philosophy, electric bills, you name it. Why can't us drummers do the same here?

That was because (as is always the case when the discussion turns to jazz) there were so many adamant posts made by people who don't know what they're talking about, people who somehow think that it's a sort of birthright they have as drummers to have some "knowledge," something relevant to say about a kind of music they've obviously never really played.
You don't know jazz unless you play it. Period. It's not in books. It's not in magazine articles.
Anyway, why would anybody want to play jazz anymore? There's no money in it, no fame. You want to kill your career? Call yourself a jazz drummer.
I don't participate in any of the metal threads because I don't know anything about that, but as soon as a jazz thread comes up everybody walks in acting as though they're seasoned pros, talking about "Elvin" and "Tony." Oh yeah, Buddy Rich gets mentioned a lot too.
Between jazz and religion I'd rather talk about religion. At least the Christians know what they're talking about where their religion is concerned!

Easy solution. Simply cut all the talk and just get out and play the actual music called jazz with people who love it just as much like i've done going on 37 years now and forget the huge headache of words the subject of jazz has become on the internet. Let the music in a real context in life speak for itself for those who actually play and enjoy the performing of jazz as their life's blood. That's all that matters really in my view to each individual involved since actions speak louder than words in my view.

Work's for me and has far more long lasting satisfying end results based on my personal and professional experience on the subject. Less stressful and draining on your creative energy.

If religion is, as you say, a "hot subject" then why can't it be discussed among drummers? I find the idea that all drummers have to talk about is what kind of heads they like to use to be a little insulting. You mean that as a drummer all I'm supposed to think about is what my next ride cymbal will be?
None of the the musicians I hang out with ever talk about music. We talk about politics, religion, philosophy, electric bills, you name it. Why can't us drummers do the same here?

True, we CAN discuss other things, but discuss them at the proper places. I (and I'm sure there's plenty more out there) don't want to have to sift through religious debate to get to the drumming. Like I don't want to sift through drumming talk to get to the religious debate on the religious forums I go to. There's some people on here that may be religious or that may not be religious but they all come here to discuss drumming, not religion or politics. My friends I discuss religion, but at the proper times. You ever have that one annoying friend/person who always needs to talk about unrelated things while you're having a conversation? You're talking about one thing, and he always brings up something new for no reason other than the fact that he was bored? That's what it feels like. I know I can just skip over this thread, but once they allow religious talk on here it's going to seep through into everything.

Jay, I would love to discuss religion with you, PM me(or go to that forum I posted) if you want to talk religion. I have nothing against religious debate, I just want it in the proper places.

EDIT:Maybe not now, it's late and I'm going to bed, but I'll get back to you tomorrow or sometime this weekend.

That was because (as is always the case when the discussion turns to jazz) there were so many adamant posts made by people who don't know what they're talking about, people who somehow think that it's a sort of birthright they have as drummers to have some "knowledge," something relevant to say about a kind of music they've obviously never really played.
You don't know jazz unless you play it. Period. It's not in books. It's not in magazine articles.
Anyway, why would anybody want to play jazz anymore? There's no money in it, no fame. You want to kill your career? Call yourself a jazz drummer.
I don't participate in any of the metal threads because I don't know anything about that, but as soon as a jazz thread comes up everybody walks in acting as though they're seasoned pros, talking about "Elvin" and "Tony." Oh yeah, Buddy Rich gets mentioned a lot too.
Between jazz and religion I'd rather talk about religion. At least the Christians know what they're talking about where their religion is concerned!

trying to talk jazz on this forum is a lot like trying to talk politics or religion.

It is, really, so simple. Straight from the forum rules..."First and foremost please keep in mind that this is a moderated forum. There are plenty of places on the Internet where you can pretty much do and say whatever you want. This is not one of them."......."Using the Off Topic Lounge
The original purpose of the Off Topic forum was to discuss subjects that were musical in nature but not necessarily drum-related. We have allowed a bit of leeway with this definition, but we have discovered through trial and error what fits here and what doesn't. Please do not discuss extremely trivial matters. Do not post jokes or poetry. Do not discuss politics or religion. Do not post links to “hilarious” videos of stupid people doing stupid things. If you, in your best judgment, create a post or thread that is deleted from this or any other forum topic, understand that we have the final say regarding what is appropriate and what is not. Unfortunately more posts are deleted from this topic than all others combined, and more members are banned based on their actions in this sub-forum. For these reasons, please do not abuse this area of the forum, and save us all the hassle involved in settling disputes that could easily have been avoided in the first place."

__________________
This seat does not recline as per Federal Aviation Regulation 121.310 (f)(3)

What if someone had said," I have been trying to play jazz and I just don't get it. I don't think that God wants me to play jazz." Should the response to that person be "There is no God and you're a fool for believing in God" or "Why don't you try playing jazz for Satan"? I Think that a more appropriate response would be "I play jazz and perhaps I can help you. Please describe the problems that you are having." Isn't that last type of response more in tune with the spirt of Drummerworld? Keep in mind that the first two responses were generated as a direct result of religious topics that were being discussed in another thread.

Try joining a religious or automotive or political or knitting forum and see how receptive they are when you keep wanting to talk about flamacues or debate the virtues of birch versus maple.

Really, I'm surprised that this discussion is still going on. The rules are posted, they've been quoted here, and Bernhard has reiterated his feelings on the matter. Discussion closed. No religion, no politics, and play nice. Talk about drummers and drumming on every subforum except the Off-Topic Lounge, discuss pretty much anything marginally related to music there (and some things not), and save anything that you like to your own hard drive as server space may be opened up at any time by deletion of material. Everyone knows the rules. Please be respectful of our host. Thank you.