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Well, certain of you conveniently ignore what i said about the book written about King by his closest confidante, the Reverend Ralph Abernathy, in which many of the rumors were confirmed. i, myself, saw a play about 10 years ago based on King's affair with a young women, which if it hadn't been accurate could've been the subject of a suit by his heirs. And it never was. I don't profess to know about any homosexual activity.
When you seek the truth, it is not always what we want to hear, especially if it is about our heroes. Pioneer also seems to completely disregard how JFK's involvement with Marilyn Monroe was sensationalized, to the extent of even advancing the idea that that he was involved in her death, which his accusers say was murder, not suicide. As for King, as far as i am concerned, his greatest asset was that he was not self-aggrandizing. it was never about him when it came to the movement, it was about his urging black folks to keep their eyes on the prize. Or did he originally seek leadership. He was chosen for it because of the obvious qualifications he displayed as a relatively unknown preacher. What he did in private was not something i was ever eager to cast stones about. Since his wife seemed OK with it, and he was doing a good job of advancing the black cause, i gave him a pass. His legacy speaks for itself because it involves his being instrumental in the passage of civil rights legislation. Some historians say that had he not been assassinated, his star would've faded as the days of civil disobedience fell from favor. As it was, his death made him a martyr. The same with Malcom X. So be it.
About the term, "illegitimate", it had to originate somewhere, and it makes sense that that place was in courts of law where it is routinely used.

@Pioneer1 , not sure where you've been for the last half century and the beginning of this one - sexual abuse, promiscuity and lying under oath about it got a white U.S. President Impeached. Further there have been far too many to count -nor would I list here, the number of political/social/cultural white leaders who had to leave their position for violating moral codes of infidelity, sexual abuse and impropriety, and that is in this century alone.
Even Strom Thurmond was spared because he took care of his illegitimate daughter. According to reports he had sex with a 16-year-old who was working for his family. The news didn't break until after he was dead but those close to the family said he treated her like the family she was to him. So yes his sex life became part of his legacy too.
As for your off-topic reasoning regarding the 18th century; I wasn't born then so I don't know what the word on the street was then. Those who write the history tend to look back with forgiveness. Trump doesn't have major support - he has white nationalist support. Some polls indicate he's the only president who hasn't received above 50% approval rating. So major support is an exaggeration.
So while you seem to want to reduce this to casual sex - it's more than that. It's about sexual abuse especially of minors and fathering children as result of those relationships. No matter what color of your skin - that is frowned on in every culture and ethnic group.

Although "illegitimate" and "bastard" may be insensitive words, they are legal terms that apply to children born out of wedlock. It's not like these words are just random labels slapped on children. They are used during courts cases involving heirs and inheritance.

Let the church say “Amen”...
@Cynique I’m so glad you posted this! Thank You! I’m beyond finished with this thread especially after reading that “let boys be boys” sentiment.
OMG... I can’t believe anyone would think it’s ok to use young women jack up their lives and let them raise up “bastard” children in a religious sect -because they were the top seller of some bean pies.
I Just can’t.

Is it asking too much for women to expect men to have good character and integrity? There's no excuse for accomplished husbands choosing to let their penises supplant their brains especially since no man cherishes an accomplished wife who engages in promiscuous behavior. An extra-marital affair can be forgiven but ongoing perversion and predatory harassment are not cancelled out by public acclaim. Bill Clinton will always be condemned for his shenanigans with Monica Lewinsky, and Donald Trump for his lewd behavior in spite of both having achieved the office of the presidency; and rightfully so. Esteemed married men should be role models worthy of being emulated, not sneaky pussy-mongers. There have to be standards. And it's perfect;y legitimate for a woman to not like a renowned man who was unfaithful to her, something he would likewise resent if she cheated on him. (Anybody who criticizes such a woman is totally lacking in insight.) Unfortunately, the double standard is alive and well as ego-centric men routinely meander through life adhering to the "don't do as i do, do as i say do" code.
Elijah Muhammad was an unscrupulous lecher and nothing can erase that blot from the meager contributions he made to the world-at-large. Yes, "doggish" tendencies are in a man's DNA but for a husband to have the discipline and good judgment and moral compass to rise above lust by considering its negative possibilities, is an accomplishment that truly inspires admiration. Of course, people are free to behave anyway they want, but they shouldn't demand to be respected when their indiscretions come to light.

Discovering that Elijah Muhammad had a harem of young girls, many of whom he impregnated, was what drove Malcolm to leave the NOI and start his own sect. I personally knew a girl in my hometown who was fathered by Elijah Muhammad and was later adopted by a local minister of the Church of God and Christ, and his wife. Also, according to Malcolm's biography by Alex Haley, Malcolm was a pimp in his days before he went to prison and converted to Islam. Of course, Alex has proved to not always tell the truth in his books. Recently there have been reports that in 2010 Farrakhan became interested in Scientology and began to explore its concepts and encourage followers to study the disciplines of Dianetics in order to become coverts and learn the "auditing" procedures utilized to recruit and monitor others. i also read where Farrakhan has converted to Christianity, accepting Jesus Christ as his savior.
I read about the Muslims and Dianetics in Wikipedia, which of course, draws criticism from certain people on this board. But i have always found well researched information there, and since the living people and the heirs of the dead people it profiles have an option to challenge and correct information about themselves or their works, i assume that what i read there is as good a source as any for information.
As far as what i believe about black men automatically defending their women, i don't think doing so is a priority of theirs or something they do as a custom. Individual ones may do so in the course of protecting their families, the same way they would do if it came to their car or any property they valued. It's not something i dwell on. i remember a while back when one night my husband and i were awakened by a noise that made him wonder if someone was trying to break in. He immediately got up with the intention to go down stairs and see. i protested, asking him what did he think he could do? He continued out the room, saying he didn't know but would think of something when he got there. While i had my hand on the phone, i think he grabbed an object before he made it down the stairs where it proved to be a false alarm. So i guess "situational ethics" can trigger impulses. 😏

DUH. i think your response was highly opinionated. But not the expression of a self-centered person. What i said about me being self-centered was that i thought this was how others viewed me. i don't view myself as self-centered however because i am too busy focusing on contradicting what others say. So i guess that kind of ties in with Troy said. Note that i never bother to capitalize "i" when it stands alone and this is for a reason...
Once again i have a confession to make. i didn't join this thread until late because sometimes i stay on the sideline and just let others go at it, especially when it involves videos because as i've gotten older my attention span is short, and both spoken and written comments have to instantly grab me or i lose interest. So, when Del asked my opinion on black women marrying white men and Chevdove shared her thoughts on the exchange between Malcolm and Evie, i back tracked and checked things out closer, which is to say i actually watched the video. And it was, indeed, like going back in time. In 1961, i was 28 years old and immersed in the blooming civil rights struggle. This was during Martin's and Malcolm's hey day, their friendly rivalry kinda like a Michael and Prince thing; different sides of the black coin, one edgy, the other smooth. This was also when TV had really come into its own having just started to command a wide audience in the mid 1950s. So "M"&"M" were superstars, thanks to the exposure granted them by the MEDIA of TV as well as talk-radio which was also an up and coming outlet. The thing about what they were both saying back then was although it was revelatory to white people, it was familiar to blacks, and when these 2 started spreading their messages, black folks immediately identified with them. They weren't saying "Oh, Wow", they were nodding "Right On". The things Malcolm was saying about whites i had grown up hearing to my daddy say, something that was common in all black families who lived in a racist society. i never had any illusions about the guilt of whites but my particular environment also enabled me to see benefits of what Martin was saying about integration. As soon as i heard Malcolm's resonate voice on the video, telling it like it was in response to the shrill, high-pitched enunciations of Evie, the years fell away. Now, as then, i have mixed emotions, - which is what it means to be black in America...

OH GOSH, so true!!!
absolutely.
Okay, so this is so complex to me, in that she is debating with Malcolm X, but I think he too, was not all that Pro-Black all of his life. We all have issues and need to work them out, but it is not easy trying to do this in America. Anyway, I don't think it is good to 'judge a book by its' cover'. We all have to contemplate how we have come to form our opinions regarding racism. So, this reminds me of something that happend to me years ago:
Side Note: Years ago when my oldest child was a toddler and my younger child was an infant, I accused my husband of cheating on me with a White woman but the end result, was embarrassing for me. My next-door neighbor, a White American ‘German-type’ girl was my best friend at the time and I asked for her help in confronting my husband when he came home from work. I had checked our answering machine and ‘my heart fell through my stomach’ as I listened to what sounded like a White woman talking to my husband on the recorder. I immediately ran and knocked on my girlfriend’s door and had her come listen to the recording. She also said that it sounded like a White woman and she too, got angry. So both me and her came out into the foyer at the top of the second floor of our apartment building and waited for my husband, ‘that BLAM NEGRGO’ to get home. He climbed the stairs and then we confronted his ‘behind’. But, he paid us NO attention and he looked tired from work. He completely ‘blew us off’ as he opened the door, but we followed him down the hallway to our bedroom and we demanded that he listen to the voicemail. So, I hit the button with passion, and stood back by my girlfriend to see what he was gonna do when he saw that we busted his rass. . . . So, after he listened to the voicemail, he turned and looked at me and said, “[my nick name]”. He said, ‘Chev’, he paused; “THAT’S YOU.”
OMG. My girlfriend and I looked at each other, in surprise, and then, I realized that it was me! OMG. DARN. We both grabbed each other, and slowly backed out of the room, then we ran down the hallway and out and ran into her apartment… and laughed till we cried. I had forgotten what I sounded like on recordings. My girlfriends at the HBCU always gave me a hard time about my speech pattern and I sometimes try to change it, but my siblings and cousins from Western Pennsylvania, we all sound very similar. So, the moral of this crazy experience would be for me, in that it’s not good always judge a book by it’s cover. The first impression may not be the complete person.

So I'm watching a 3 hour interview with Walter Mosley, 'cause that's what I do for fun, and he actually shouts out AALBC.com. He even got the site's awkward acronym out (you could see it was a little tough but he did it!).
At any rate, this is what we have to do to ensure the viability of our institutions; acknowledge, recommend them, and patronize them. Stay tuned...

For the record, most Black men I know are good dads, they support their wives and children, they protect their families and most of the Black mothers I know personally strive to be the best mothers they know how to be. In the age of us waking up, of course they are not perfect parents, but they love their children and do their best. As a whole, my opinion of Black people is that we are unique, highly intelligent (in our own special way), have the best genes and the most soul out of anyone else.
I don't buy the b.s. narrative that Black men are too effeminate or that Black women are thots and other bad words. But these people have an agenda and they have mastered the ability to make us turn on ourselves. The solution is simple.
If you go to any ghetto on the planet, you will see that the crime rate is high and the property value is low. However, take any borough in NYC; the properties are valued at about 150k and up. However, if you change the mindset of those who inhabit these areas, the property values would shoot to the millions of dollars. If our thinking changes to a certain extent, we will have already increased our wealth without doing anything else.

I no longer try to win arguments here or try to change anyone's position.
I post a link and later I state my position and I ask questions. I also don't define what your position is or should be.
I think our respective positions are clear. I don't have a masculine or feminine perspective.
With the exception of Bill Cosby I think about an issue. I also will do a quick search about the issue.
I think the Viola Davis thread is a perfect example of my approach. I wasn't any side. And I was able to answer the question that was posed by Mel.
Live and learn or not.
The comments have already answered this.

I think only folks over 45 will relate to this feeling.
Those on the other side might wonder how there could be anything but emotional rage.
Note: I’m thinking about Black Twitter raking Michelle Obama over the coals for writing bothsiderism in a passage that refers to Reverend Jeremiah Wright ... and they’re also poking at EBONY Media Operations for its POWER 100 list (advertising revenue mechanism) but not inviting Miss Flint to the “private” gala.
Again, maybe Malcolm was onto something. Maybe for Black-Owned Businesses and Black Celebrity Enterprises to thrive they must move beyond the ideals of the black community.

Lol! Damn @Chevdove that was a wild story. Nice opening to a book about a good, hard working man, and his loving, but nutty wife.
@Cynique no (wo)man is perfect. But some are more accomplished and inspiring than others. Neither King or Malcolm were perfect or above critique. So I'm with you on that regard. I would put Obama in the same category it got to the point for me was beginning to dislike the man because so many (usually women) treated him like he was the second coming. Any critique was met with hostility. I have no problem being critical of Obama, which, for a Black person, is the very definition if being an iconoclast.
I find less to be critical of King or Malcolm that I do of Obama.
I tend to agree. If you read my newsletter https://madmimi.com/p/6aaf4d?fe=1&amp;pact=1349867-148415217-8791670882-25c1d2bb2a31c65f5317d9dc825a3cdd220b508e I attempt to provide a variety of information, but I've found, over time, the content reflect what i personally feel is important. In this issue mean works that celebrate Black women activitist, who are iften marginalized in favor of the men.
Thanks for the nuanced response to my reaction to your rebuttal to @Pioneer1 and @Delano's simplistic atribution of highly opinionated to your personality.
To a causal oberverer we could all be called "highly opinionated" but that is crudely reductionist and does not tell your full story. Thanks for continuing to tell your story.
I do too. It does not make us bad.... just human. I grew up in a segregated ghetto, I know my perspective is influenced by this experience.

RANDOM THOUGHTS
SMH. Husbands don't even understand their wives, and for a single man to broach the subject of why black women marry white men is beyond the pale; pun intended. Dispensing answers to this question is on a par with a black man explaining why white men marry black women; these are both subjects he is not qualified to speak on. Why black women marry white men is a choice that is as individual as their finger print and the reasons Pioneer provides for black women marrying white men can also apply to why they marry black men. Sheeze. Conspicuously absent from his explanations for an interracial marriage is that the couple are in love, and very revealing is his reluctance to believe they could possibly be sexually compatible. As for his other tarnished nugget of wisdom in regard to woman wanting to reform wayward men, Maya Angelou offered this sage advice years ago: "if a man shows you who he is, believe him." Pioneer's intrusion into unknown territory is an exercise that is comparable to me pontificating on a subject such as the pros and cons of circumcision. Puleeze
BTW, wealth has been described as "old money" that has been inherited. So Trump is wealthy. Madonna came from an average middleclass family, but through talent and ambition she was able elevate herself to the ranks of the "noveau riche".
Khalid Muhammad is like a character from central casting, selected for a sinister role for which he is perfect thanks to his appearance and manner.
"This above all to thine ownself be true" has always been my mantra. I know why I'm hypercritical and argumentive, why i hate maudlin things, and the why of my love/hate relationship with males of the species. It all has to do with perfection, something i lack but crave. I also have 3 different personas and believe i am reincarnated because of certain things I've known without being told. And i also know nobody gives a damn about me revealing this because i am considered self-centered and am hiding behind a facade - which i'm not. 🙃 😵

This is simply not true and is documented as such. When I was active on social media, I was feed so much anti-Hillary stuff, I almost did not vote for her. Cynique, it was you you talked some sense into me. The FACT is that Black voter turnout was LOWER in 2016. You can say that Facebook, a﻿nd social media in general, had no impact, you are very ;ikely wrong given what we know today.
So, you're saying the majority of black folks didn't vote for Hillary as the lesser of 2 evils, and then citing yourself as a reluctant black voter who did vote for her. Who, then, did the majority of black voters vote for? While keeping in mind all the black votes that weren't counted, i am saying that it doesn't matter if the black turnout was less than the previous election because the majority of those who did turn out, voted for Hillary and this was due in part to black people like you who voted for her in spite of their misgivings. In other words, you haven't made your point. And you are also implying that if social media didn't exist then the Russians couldn't have influenced the election and Hillary would've won. Pure speculation and if this conclusion is based on the vague "documentation" you refer to, then i am again underwhelmed especially if it was the finding of the analysts who previously predicted Hillary would win.
Of course, I'm just expressing my take on this subject, but there are a lot of really informed smart black folks who make up the black twitter community and who could construct a strong case in support of it. What is your rationale for predicting Twitter will end with Trump's presidency?

@Delano, (OFF TOPIC kinda ) I used your quote as an example of how our use of language - specifically how we use “gender” can be derogatory. “Polite” society no longer call black men “boys”- but in your usage to infantilize “Troy and NF” you reached for “girls” when “boys” would do.
BUT Society as whole uses “girls” as a derogatory phrase - and some women use it when they don’t want to appear as “old women”
It’s cute and quaint when women use it and it’s derogatory when men use it. It’s like Nigger/ Nigga . My intention wasn’t to call you out but rather to show how language can show lack of respect.
ON TOPIC
No, I didn’t get the sense you were speaking for me - It seems to me you raised an important topic like “climate change”...
This one is currently part of the national dialogue because of 45.
He weaponizes language - and he knows black women see through him but he also know the status of the black community.
If black men organizations came after him after his outburst against the black women white house correspondents, they would have weakened him...catching him off guard.
But not a peep.
So thank you. I internalized the exchange- so not to think about it. This is better because now I can release it.

And there lies the rub. Black men don’t want to feel like cowards.
So not wanting to feel like a coward is the reason for all the back-patting regarding random chivalrous acts?
I can imagine that the alternative is hard to mentally reconcile. Mindblowing actually.
But imagine if black men didn’t make it about them - and actually did the heavy lifting of protecting black women.
Black men failed once and that is how many black women ended up shackled next to black men in those slaves ships.
Still, I don’t believe those African men were any less courageous than black american men today. They were outsmarted and outplayed and did what they could to survive - even if was at the expense of women and children.
It’s similar to the environment today - but instead of fighting, revolting and uprising - it’s more of radio silence on issues that effect the most vulnerable in the black community.
When women say things such as Hopkinson in that quote, and a whole host of women share the same reality they don’t care if black men feel like cowards. In fact that is the least of their worries. Have you heard of the me-too movement? It was started by a black woman Tarana Burke in 2006 because too many black and brown working-poor women were being sexually assaulted on their jobs that they couldn’t leave. If they didn’t acquiesce to the men they would be fired and eventually homeless with their children.
This is reality for a lot of black women. Don’t be confused by hollywood giving their star power to help these women.
Or let’s talk about the tens of thousands of underage girls right here in American being sold into sex slavery...
So let’s be clear, we are NOT talking about individual acts of kindness and chilvary...It is rare for any man to turn their back on a woman face-to-face... I went to the bank today and didn’t open one door or have a man jump in front of me -BUT that’s not point.
We’re saying COLLECTIVELY, Black men aren’t covering black women. We don’t care what any othet ethnic group is or isn’t doing. - the topic black men covering black women.
There has never been a march, a labor strike or movement organized by black men to stop the violence against black women or children...or a march against “welfare reform” (@Troy) that effects women and children.. or even march to make sure black women who are raising children single-handled get childcare, equal pay / raise in wages, paid time off to care for sick children or even a time off for mental health days...
Black Men as a group have never even asked black women (the collective) what we need to feel protected” -
So, while a man may feel stepping up to stop a black man from beating a black women - is cause for celebration, I say
NO.
As an actual black women who fellowships with other black women, that’s a beautiful gesture and life-saving
If it prevented a mercy -hospital type assassination of a black women ER doctor.
But in the grand scheme, protecting a black women has nothing to do with a man’s ego... It’s ensuring that all black men have a future.

Whether I suggest that or not - (which by the way, I have no way of knowing ) why is the question relevant to my statement of being haunted by black men not being able to provide protection then or now?
Further, It's not a matter of "buy in" of Delano's observation that collectively black men appear not to have respect for black women. Lack of respect appears in the language we use (notice how Delano called both you and NubianFellow "Girls"), our institutions including church, schools, banking and finance etc, and socially. For example, how it's the norm to blame black women for a black man's shortcomings or failure. I'm always amazed how many black men blame feminism for them not being in the home.
Even the fact that your question took away my agency by asking me about Delano's perception - instead of simply asking me "do I believe black men respect black women". Something as "innocent" as framing a question to a woman based on what a man thinks is disrespectful. But it doesn't even faze me anymore. I notice it and continue to move on.
The challenge in this whole dynamic - isn't about what anyone believes anymore; it's about action. Black women who are about anything -are no longer waiting around for that protection or respect - that may or may not come. They are just moving on, building movements and forming sanctuaries.