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I've said INTERNATIONAL PLAYERS DON'T CUT IT..MY BASIC POINT SINCE PAGE 1.

I've proved it.

U fags just don't wanna hear the truth.

It's all mathematics...

If they were that much better...how come an association thats been around almost a decade and a half...has 7x less hall of famers when they have been doing it professionally so much longer than the Americans??

FACTS ABOVE PROVE MY POINT.

What the **** is your deal you break all over Italians last week this week all International players suck and are soft.Do you ever leave the house and step out into the world how can you just put every player into a catergory just like you put my whole race into a catergory last week are you that ****ing ignorant or are you really just a little kid.Your not stupid I can tell that bye your posts to be honest you are actually quite smart.But you hatred for anyone who is not like you just comes out to much.My man there are a lot of other people who act like you they are black,white,spanish and they hate everything diffrent from them and while they spend there time talking **** about everyone else the world passes them bye and they end up broke,Locked up,and a joke to society.While the people who dont judge make money,have great lives,And get ahead.Talk **** all you want but do it on a site with people you dont hate because all your doing is coming off like a little ignorant kid.

Far far away from the orgy that consist of clyde, 8's, rady, smokes and rono

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Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz

STILL NO EXPLANATION.

Shar, I used all drafts from 1998 to now and pointed out over a 40 American bust in the lottery. You only pointed out like what? 3 or 4? Most of them are bolded in the late first. Your post has no relevance to my point or this thread. Anyone can bold a mock draft. I don't need to explain myself again if you can't read this post properly.

Originally Posted by metrocard

You're probably the worst at understanding simple facts.

Look at the international guys without NCAA experience that have fully succeded in the NBA lately:

Predrag Stojakovic(NBA all star, one of the best shooters in NBA history) was selected in the 1996 draft, but come to the NBA until the 98-99 season. Previously he played with PAOK in the Greek League and averaged 23.9 points with very tough competition. He was on an elite team also.

Dirk Nowitzki(MVP, All star, Top 10 player) helped his team get promoted to First German Division right before being picked in the 1998 draft. He was the league's top scorer with 21.4 ppg and third rebounder with 8.4 rpg.

Pau Gasol's(All star, top 10 big man) dominance in the ACB(best league outside the NBA) League during the 2000-2001 season helped him earned MVP honours at the King's Cup, leading F.C. Barcelona to a perfect 9-0 record during the playoffs.

Andrei Kirilenko(All star, elite defensive player) was the MVP in his last season in the Russian Superleague. He averaged 19.2 points and 8.7 rebounds for Russia at the European Championships in the summer of 2001.

Yao Ming(Elite center, all star, best offensive center in the NBA since Shaq) had Chamberlain-esque stats in China the season before he was chosen by the Rockets averaged 32.4 points (with 72% on FG), 19 rebounds and 4.8 blocked shots, and lead the Shangai Sharks to their first CBA title.

Manu Ginobili(All star, NBA champion, probably the best SG in the NBA behind Kobe) won all kinds of tournaments; Euroleague, Italian league and Italian Cup) and MVP trophies before joining the Spurs in 2002(He was drafted in 1999). He led Argentina to a silver medal in Indiannapolis, making history after beating USA badly. Ginobili won a couple of championships also, making him one of the most successful basketball players in the history of basketball, winning a championship in every league he's been.

Tony Parker(All star, NBA champion, elite PG.
His last season in France with Paris Basket Racing (2000-2001), he only averaged 14.7 points and 5.6 assists. Not great numbers, but Parker always was scouted for his blazing speed. An elite athlete.

Here's the pattern.
Big accomplishers who are developed and contribute to their overseas teams and making them win against very good competition most of the time turn out to be very successful in the NBA.

Nikoloz Tskitishvili and Darko Milicic were benchwarmers in Europe. If anyone's to blame its the stupid GM's who draft these guys so high and draft proven guys like Parker and Ginobili so low. Bottom line players like those aren't ready and will never be ready to live to the expectation.
This strategy of drafting and signing immature European teenagers has backfired on many teams.

Andrea Bargnani will be just a taller Antwain Jamison without the rebounding skills.

He shouldn't be considered a bust yet.

Yi Jianlian got GAME and will produce in the NBA. He has post skills, can block shots, has freakish athlecism for a 7 footer, range from 3pt and loves to rebound and bang in the post.

Yao is # 2 behind Shaq? You don't even know your center rankings.

Dwight Howard is the best center in the NBA. Or Even Amare.
Yao was number 1 for a while also.
Shaq hasn't been the same and isn't even a top 5 center in the NBA no more, where you been?

Arroyo is a C+ level PG, undrafted. No one expected him to make the NBA and he still managed to produce respectfully in the league.

Luis Scola is a NBA rookie who averaged 14 PPG and 9.3 rebounds in the PLAYOFFS, you said he only does work in the REG season. Damn, you are wrong again, no suprise.
Luis Scola was another SUCESSFUL EUROLEAGUE player who made the all rookie team and will continue to be a very good starter for the Rockets next to Yao.

I bet if Oden was from FRANCE, you would be calling him out for being "Too soft" and use that for the reason why he missed the whole year.

You're trying too hard.
Not coming with the facts.
Failing miserably with each sentence you write.

Peja is a career 18 and 5 player and was drafted 14th overall...STFU. Theres more American BUST in the playoffs too, do I have to call them out to make a point? Not even you are that dumb to not realize it.
But I'm going to do that.

Here's trivia for you.
Who was the best player at 14 in the last 10 years in the NBA Draft?
AN INTERNATIONAL PLAYER FROM YUGOSLAVIA
Dude, 9 of those American BUST don't even combine together to have the career Peja had. I just pointed out more bust than you did in one simple point. You think I'm done? LOL...theres a reason why dudes avoid to get in debates with me here, the facts I bring are HEAVY.

2003 was one of the greatest drafts in NBA history.
Sweetney though.
T.J. Ford didn't live up to hype, got traded 3 times already.
Hinrich is average.
Jarvis Hayes?
Marcus Banks is a scrub
Collinson is average
Troy Bell and Reece Gaines aren't even in the NBA.

Diaw, Barbosa, Bell are all contributors on Phoneix.
Turkyglu won most improved player and has become the vocal point on offense for the Magic. He's a 20/5/4 player.
Nicioni has been the Bulls most consistant player, ask most Bulls fans.
Jose Calderon is one of the best PG's in the NBA, T.J. Ford could be considered a BUST since he was traded 3 times already and hasn't lived up to expectations.
Parker and Garbojosa are NBA starting material.
Spurs stock piled on international talent and proved you could suceed in the NBA with European style of basketball (rugged, defensive basketball with fundamental pick and roll on offense)

I'm a NBA/Draft/Int'l basketball guru, I follow this deeply since 2004. I come heavy with the knowledge and research, so if you want to actually make this is a debate instead of a slaughter, I suggest for you to step up your weight.

The **** you expect every non-USA guy to dominate the league? You're logic is the most retarded one I seen, on some real talk. No attempt to disrespect you, I respect your post, but I never seen anyone this dumb on such a topic.

Like I said before... I think the 2002 draft is the best to use to prove your points... since Dirk started the international player being drafted in the first round trend in '99... kinda like Kemp did with HS players in 91... but it wasn't until '02 that international players really got shine in the draft... so without further ado...

1 Yao Ming (C) China Houston Rockets Shanghai Sharks (China) 1980 - may very well be a bust in the future... always injured... for now though... worth the pick...

2 Jay Williams (PG) United States Chicago Bulls Duke Jr. - BUST

3 Mike Dunleavy, Jr. (SF) United States Golden State Warriors Duke Jr. - still incomplete grade for this cat... started getting better in Indy...

4 Drew Gooden (PF) United States Memphis Grizzlies Kansas Jr. - never learned how to be a consistent scorer or defender...

7 Maybyner "Nenę" Hilario (PF) Brazil New York Knicks (traded to Denver)[7] Vasco da Gama (Brazil) 1982 - BUST remember we booed him? if i knew we were gonna trade him for mcdyess i wouldn't have been bothered...

28 Dan Dickau (PG) United States Sacramento Kings (traded to Atlanta) Gonzaga Sr. - role player

half the international players taken in the first round... Yao, Nacbar, Kristic... weren't busts... of the american players taken in round 1... only 9/22 were any good...

and before either side gets gassed... consider this... metro... would you rather have yao... amare or boozer (who was taken in the 2nd round of this draft)... or welsch or tayshaun prince? and knicksfanz... would you rather have ely, haislip, jones or nacbar? or Dixon, Borchardt, Humphrey, Rush, Woods, Jacobsen or kristic? c'mon...

gallenari is supposed to rebound... have a nasty streak... and a shot... could scouting reports be wrong? absolutely... but i'm not gonna trash the guy before seeing him play especially since anyone else that was available at #6 would have been too risky (bayless, gordon, etc are not the pure point guards we need and mayo was gone)...

Point well taken. By my contention has always been you go back LOOK AT ALL THE DRAFTS, foreign products just don't pan out as much. As far as their being more AMERICAN BUSTS..of course it's no secret thats going to happen since we cast them with a wider net. More fish in the sea, ergo most are not going to churn you out caviar...and you'll get some solid tuna in there..and a whole list of others are not fit for consumption. PERIOD.

It's not my fault if the 60's, 70's, 80's international players...that 99% of them...WERE BUSTS. I think TOO damned much is being made of these more modern imports coming into the NBA. The numbers are against them as far as failure. For me it comes down to total percentage...

Let's say for the sake of argument since 1946..till now...you had 100 international players. Let's say 20% become sure enough superstars. Well that's a failure rate of 80%.

Now let's take American players..since 46...Let's say you had just 1,000 players drafted. And out of this 30 Hall of Famers....and 200 solid role players..that played atleast 6 seasons...thats 23% with a failure rate of 77%.

Sure you can make the case that it took 900 more players to gain 3% more....versus international players..however...to be equal you have to wait till another 900 players from the international community were drafted...and then compare the ultimate rate. 1000 per 1000.

I don't like international players for the most part, most of them either don't want to play in the US, and alot of them are more suspect because the volume of information on them..is not broadcast as it should be, and sometimes it is concealed.

What the **** is your deal you break all over Italians last week this week all International players suck and are soft.Do you ever leave the house and step out into the world how can you just put every player into a catergory just like you put my whole race into a catergory last week are you that ****ing ignorant or are you really just a little kid.Your not stupid I can tell that bye your posts to be honest you are actually quite smart.But you hatred for anyone who is not like you just comes out to much.My man there are a lot of other people who act like you they are black,white,spanish and they hate everything diffrent from them and while they spend there time talking **** about everyone else the world passes them bye and they end up broke,Locked up,and a joke to society.While the people who dont judge make money,have great lives,And get ahead.Talk **** all you want but do it on a site with people you dont hate because all your doing is coming off like a little ignorant kid.

Get your thoughts together and them place them in a concise manner with a valid point.

Are you talking about race in general? Or basketball? Are you confusing nationalism, with racism?

As far as race goes...say what you will but statistics bare out blacks are ahead of other athletes as far as skill, and I'm only measuring this as far as American sports are concerned. It is factual African Americans many of them come from ex-slaves, who were bred to be big..strong..fast, durable. It's why the frequency is higher...now that may not be race specific, so much as it is genetically specific. But it is what it is...alot of it is also environment I'd concede that notion.

More blacks play basketball, run track, play football etc.

Just as you have hispanics dominating baseball. They play more baseball now, whereas blacks do not as they did in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

Whites dominate hockey, why because more of them play it..I don't see too many asian or hispanic hockey players.

Now getting specifically back to American basketball, far as I'm concerned it's our sport as Americans, and yes to a degree as blacks (a small one).

I remember back in the 80's KNICKS had an all black roster. And when they would lose people would call them the "*****RBOCKERS". Maybe you don't remember that...but I do. Alot of people on here act as if race don't matter, and is completely non- essential to MARKETING anymore. Which shows a complete lack of reality. Marketing is all about not only success, but image. And many of success is predicated from image.

And it's not just sports. Alot of companies have black managers, CEO's, top executives. How many times do they advertise that fact as consistently as they show a white face, or the latin craze which they seem to be going through now...why?

Because since latino's are becoming more major players...they want to advertise more exclusively to that market. PERIOD. More latino's, show a latino face, get MORE latino dollars.

For the moment whites still are the majority. But as more and more races influx the advertising landscape will change, so to does that influence decision making when it comes to pitching product. Sure you can have a winning team full of guys with attitude problems...but you also are in bed with advertisers to pull in more revenue streams from their products in your building..so maybe you don't take a chance on a guy with a ton of off the court problems. Or rather his draft stock plummets. It happens.

So don't come at me with the only talent matters argument, because it's bull****. And incomplete.

Look at Sheryl Swoopes...had a nice chunk of endorsements...and she's still playing...soon as she came out the closet...no one would touch her. What does her being gay have to do with her selling sneakers, or lady schik? Nothing logically. But it does, why? Image of homosexuality. Society.

Get your thoughts together and them place them in a concise manner with a valid point.

Are you talking about race in general? Or basketball? Are you confusing nationalism, with racism?

As far as race goes...say what you will but statistics bare out blacks are ahead of other athletes as far as skill, and I'm only measuring this as far as American sports are concerned. It is factual African Americans many of them come from ex-slaves, who were bred to be big..strong..fast, durable. It's why the frequency is higher...now that may not be race specific, so much as it is genetically specific. But it is what it is...alot of it is also environment I'd concede that notion.

More blacks play basketball, run track, play football etc.

Just as you have hispanics dominating baseball. They play more baseball now, whereas blacks do not as they did in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

Whites dominate hockey, why because more of them play it..I don't see too many asian or hispanic hockey players.

Now getting specifically back to American basketball, far as I'm concerned it's our sport as Americans, and yes to a degree as blacks (a small one).

I remember back in the 80's KNICKS had an all black roster. And when they would lose people would call them the "*****RBOCKERS". Maybe you don't remember that...but I do. Alot of people on here act as if race don't matter, and is completely non- essential to MARKETING anymore. Which shows a complete lack of reality. Marketing is all about not only success, but image. And many of success is predicated from image.

And it's not just sports. Alot of companies have black managers, CEO's, top executives. How many times do they advertise that fact as consistently as they show a white face, or the latin craze which they seem to be going through now...why?

Because since latino's are becoming more major players...they want to advertise more exclusively to that market. PERIOD. More latino's, show a latino face, get MORE latino dollars.

For the moment whites still are the majority. But as more and more races influx the advertising landscape will change, so to does that influence decision making when it comes to pitching product. Sure you can have a winning team full of guys with attitude problems...but you also are in bed with advertisers to pull in more revenue streams from their products in your building..so maybe you don't take a chance on a guy with a ton of off the court problems. Or rather his draft stock plummets. It happens.

So don't come at me with the only talent matters argument, because it's bull****. And incomplete.

Look at Sheryl Swoopes...had a nice chunk of endorsements...and she's still playing...soon as she came out the closet...no one would touch her. What does her being gay have to do with her selling sneakers, or lady schik? Nothing logically. But it does, why? Image of homosexuality. Society.

Cosign. Agree 100%. Marketability has altered the sporting world a great deal.

However, I disagree with the blacks being more skillful. You listed athletic traits which shows that they are more athletic, not skillful. Skills are acquired traits, not things through genetics.

Get your thoughts together and them place them in a concise manner with a valid point.

Are you talking about race in general? Or basketball? Are you confusing nationalism, with racism?

As far as race goes...say what you will but statistics bare out blacks are ahead of other athletes as far as skill, and I'm only measuring this as far as American sports are concerned. It is factual African Americans many of them come from ex-slaves, who were bred to be big..strong..fast, durable. It's why the frequency is higher...now that may not be race specific, so much as it is genetically specific. But it is what it is...alot of it is also environment I'd concede that notion.

More blacks play basketball, run track, play football etc.

Just as you have hispanics dominating baseball. They play more baseball now, whereas blacks do not as they did in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

Whites dominate hockey, why because more of them play it..I don't see too many asian or hispanic hockey players.

Now getting specifically back to American basketball, far as I'm concerned it's our sport as Americans, and yes to a degree as blacks (a small one).

I remember back in the 80's KNICKS had an all black roster. And when they would lose people would call them the "*****RBOCKERS". Maybe you don't remember that...but I do. Alot of people on here act as if race don't matter, and is completely non- essential to MARKETING anymore. Which shows a complete lack of reality. Marketing is all about not only success, but image. And many of success is predicated from image.

And it's not just sports. Alot of companies have black managers, CEO's, top executives. How many times do they advertise that fact as consistently as they show a white face, or the latin craze which they seem to be going through now...why?

Because since latino's are becoming more major players...they want to advertise more exclusively to that market. PERIOD. More latino's, show a latino face, get MORE latino dollars.

For the moment whites still are the majority. But as more and more races influx the advertising landscape will change, so to does that influence decision making when it comes to pitching product. Sure you can have a winning team full of guys with attitude problems...but you also are in bed with advertisers to pull in more revenue streams from their products in your building..so maybe you don't take a chance on a guy with a ton of off the court problems. Or rather his draft stock plummets. It happens.

So don't come at me with the only talent matters argument, because it's bull****. And incomplete.

Look at Sheryl Swoopes...had a nice chunk of endorsements...and she's still playing...soon as she came out the closet...no one would touch her. What does her being gay have to do with her selling sneakers, or lady schik? Nothing logically. But it does, why? Image of homosexuality. Society.

Im gonna end this with you now because you are way to far gone in the real world you do whatever you have to do to get ahead and make money,We will start with you saying that black athletes dominate American sports your way off Farakahn if thats the case tell me the last black quarterback to win a super bowl or the last black pitcher to dominate in baseball it dont matter what color you are there are tremendous athletes from everywhere in case you forgot a little white canadian won the MVP a couple of times in the NBA,Now you talk about hockey you dont even see a lot of Americans playing period,Now you talk about the Knicks in the 80s kid you already said your 25 what the **** do you know about the 80s you couldnt even get your dick hard in the 80s but you want to talk about what went on about the Knicks,And just to **** with your ignorant little statement how many White guys were on the Knicks the last time they won a Championship and started since your such a little history buff.Now to your thing with CEOs and major companies do you think that anybody in buisness cares whats marketing there product if there making money,I own a Buisness and if a ****ing alien is gonna make me money on my commercials then Im gonna get me some ****ing aliens.In this world you do whatever you have to do to give your family everything you never had and that goes for any race in buisness.Stop making everything a black and white issue nobody wants to hear that **** anymore its just a sign of you not being where you want to be in life get over it and go make something with yourself.I mean where in the 2000s there is gonna be a black president in a few months and your still crying about black and white.You bring up slavery do you think that blacks are the only ones that have suffered my ancestors had to change there names to not get killed in NY when they came here everybody has struggled it just takes a real man to stop crying about it and move on.

Seeing how this is MY THREAD. I'm going to have to defend it from two morons in it. Because what I'm saying is historically accurate. And yes there is actual EVIDENCE.

In track, the purest test of athletic ability, runners of African descent hold every single men's world record at every standard distance, from the 100 meters (where no non-black athlete has held the world record since 1960) to the marathon.

In pro football, the positions that require the greatest combination of speed, power and explosiveness -- wide receiver, cornerback and running back -- are almost entirely played by blacks. In pro basketball -- the sport that requires the greatest combination of leaping ability, power bursts and agility -- almost all the starters and virtually all the superstars are black. In baseball, blacks are also disproportionately represented, although not to the same degree that they are in the more athletically demanding basketball and football.