Kick layering, compression / gerne auch Antworten auf deutsch ;-)

update : thx a lot for your feedback, i´m really appreciated so far. ;) another thing that i´m thinking about is to figure out how to get a really good punch on it. Since now they are sounding already flabby and i want to get them forceful. Any suggestions?! :)

Hey folks..

since a lot of time i´m messin around to get a good fat kick. My preferred stlyles are Trance, Tech Trance, Progressive and Progressive house to. So far i tried to combine and compress three different kicks, one for the sub part, one for the mid and a high to. But it doesn´t matter how i figure it out, it will not sound as i want. ;( I used lowcut´s etc. to split the frequencies from the single kicks.

Do you have some tipps or tricks what i can do to achieve a better sounding result?

13 answers

grooverb

contribution
4 answers 8 votes received

5 votes

Adding all those kicks will just confuse matters unless you're chopping out the transient from one, and the tone from another, which means you can get the attack of the kick coming through, and even then you only use 2 kicks. Usually works best with a crunchy attack and booming tone

If you're looking for a particular sounding kick, as ottocoster suggested, try synthesizing your own, or getting some sample packs. Computer Music do one with every issue and I think you should be able to DL some stuff from Music Radar.

Other than that its EQ, sidechaining and the like, and you can also set up your song so you don't get a bass note clashing with your kick

3 years ago|
0 comments

Mark One

contribution
65 answers 144 votes received

4 votes

Here's a technique I use for Techno/Trance (there are many):

IMPORTANT: Critical listening is essential, you need to be able to hear subtle differences while you make all these adjustments. Good monitors are best, headphones can give a false representation. Use some hifi speakers alongside your monitors to compare and contrast the adjustments. If possible test your sound often on a big speaker setup, after all dance musi is club music... big speakers, lots of sub frequencies you can only hear if you have top notch studio monitors with a sub. Always have a break and listen to some finished tracks in between and listen to them at low volumes (unless you have Genelec monitors : ) your ears have a flatter frequency response at low levels, at high levels our brains boost the lower frequencies.

Remember this is music so your ears should make decisions not your eyes!

You can't polish a poo so find a good kick to start with, either synth or sample.

I use the two kick approach using one for weight (low freq) and one for attack (hi freq).

EQ it so it sounds about right for you but try to remove frequencies and add volume rather than boost frequencies and reduce volume. Also make sure you roll off anything below about 55Hz (to suit you) using the steepest roll off possible, EQ3 or Filter. You will hear resonance at the cutoff frequency, listen carefully to this, a small diference here will be a big difference on a big sound system.

Enter Corpus, select Sub Kick Maker (genius) then reduce the Dry/Wet to 0, use the Tune to choose the root note of your kick, reduce the Decay to about 1s, then start dialing in some wet signal, I find that very low settings (less than 10%) work best.

Add a Compressor with moderate Ratio and fairly fast Attack and Decay settings. The compressor should fully decay between beats so the decay time will depend on your track tempo and kick envelope. Gently reduce the Threshold until the sound is pumping but not saturated, you want to maintain as high a crest factor (dynamic range) as possible at this stage in the mix.

Remember for (most) dance music the only noise below about 120Hz should be the kick and the bass part(s). Use EQ and volume envelopes on bass parts to make room for the kick, you can use Spectrum to see where your kick sits in the frequency range and then notch the bass EQ around this point (as well as find out the root note for using in Corpus).

If you maintain good dynamic range at this stage in the mix then when it comes to mixdown and mastering you have more to work with and better results can be obtained.

Have a listen to one I knocked together last month, unmastered i.e. nothing on the master track:

M-A-R-K

Ableton user for 7 years... and counting : )

3 years ago|
0 comments

iamtron

contribution
1 answer 2 votes received

2 votes

To be honest. There is a book out there that can answer all of your questions called "The Dance Music Manual." The book is phenomenal and will fill you with all sorts of tweaky knowledge.

Also, if you have Ableton's "Drum Machnes" live pack which is free if you're a Live or Suite owner you can use the "Classic 909" kit. That kick is all you need. Load a compressor and turn down the threshold for ultra phattyness. Add distortion to taste. starting with a wet/dry of 0% and just increase it till you like it.

of course you should go distortion then compression. Compression should always be last.

Some times designing a low "clicky" sound with a square wave to layer over the 909 (or preferred kick) can help as well.

If you have any questions I would be glad to further help.

3 years ago|
0 comments

Razzkazz

contribution
2 answers 4 votes received

2 votes

Some good answers so I won't repeat what's been said. Firstly good monitors that reproduce sub, and good headphones. I don't think layering is the answer, although it works sometimes. Build up a library of kicks, spend some time auditioning them, pick the best and work with them. Having a solid single kick that works is the key, if you can't get one kick to work adding more wont help, this will save a lot of time in future productions. Once you have found your favorites dont be afraid to re-use them in numerous tracks. If you play live test out some loops from tracks you are working on, I have often found a kick that sounded average on good studio monitors sounded awesome on a club sound system and ones I thought would rock the place just didn't cut it. If you DJ, pick the favorite kicks that work in the club and analyze them, or just sample them. Its also important that the kick works in the track, so tune the kick drum to work with the bass. Also side-chain compression on the bass triggered by the kick helps. EQ the prominent bass frequency of the kick out of the bass synth/guitar (narrow Q). If layering I sometime mix a very short click or glitch at the very beginning, simulating the beater hitting the drum skin, it helps with impact and punch. Use a pitch envelope to the drop the kick a few cents over its duration.

3 years ago|
0 comments

opusmachina

contribution
2 answers 2 votes received

1 vote

What I really like is the Pultec EQP-1A Equalizer, there are several emulations by third-party plug-in developers (e.g. PSP Audioware, Waves, Softube, Nomad Factory, UAD...). It features a low frequency section made up of two low shelf filters, which can be combined to attentuate and boost at the same time, with both filters actually a bit apart in frequency. Now, here's the trick: select 30 Hz, crank the boost up (maybe 7-8) with the attenuation up to 8-9, or so...you have to try a little, to find the "sweet spot". That gives you a nice boost around 60 Hz, or so, and your kick will sound nice, fat and warm.

3 years ago|
0 comments

cutwithflourish

contribution
26 answers 54 votes received

1 vote

Adding more sounds doesn't always mean you'll get more, particularly when you're compressing the results. I'm not really too familiar with the styles you're talking about, but layering three kicks sounds like a lot. Maybe two - one for texture and one for "boom".

I would try what you can achieve with a simpler starting point, maybe only a single sound. I would experiment with some drum synths - synthetic sounds can be surprisingly powerful, particularly for kicks (I've had some good results using Operator). You'd be surprised what taking some frequency bands away can do, particularly when compressing the results - but don't forget to occasionally bypass and compare, sometimes listening for things too long can distract you. Finally, make sure your sounds are in phase when layering multiple kicks - if they're not your kicks will cancel each other out rather than reinforce each other.

One reason ur not getting that huge sound from ur sine wave; the sine and the kick have to share a very low frequency. Grab a spectrum analyzer and take a look at where the sub in ur kick lives. Find the key. Now layer a sine in that key. Should help immensely.

Noa

3 years ago|
0 comments

ottocoster

contribution
1 answer 0 votes received

0 votes

Try experimenting with synthesis to create a kick, this will give you more insight in what elements a kick consists of.

I think Future Music and Computer Music both have had tutorials on how to create kicks, but from the top of my head I think a kick needed a sine wave in the key of your track with a rapidly descending pitch envelope and a transient at the beginning, that can be created with a burst of white noise (or any short sample for that matter).

You could also check out Metrum, a plug-in from Vengeance, that is designed for creating kick drums.

3 years ago|
0 comments

leherman

contribution
1 answer 0 votes received

0 votes

hey guys...

whooot... a lot of answers and good tips as well. Thanks so far, i´m really appreciated ;-)

cheers

Frank

3 years ago|
0 comments

Fantismo

contribution
5 answers 5 votes received

-1 votes

I agree - Metrum is rubbish - I sold mine very soon after.

I think GRUM's music a great example of someone who's mastered the sine and kick deal.

Hear the sine come in after the dry kick.. remember that he meay use heavy automation on eq to emphasise the changes.

Also, remember that the SINE is felt more than heard like higher FREQ. That means your brain wont notice a longer attack on a sine.. Have a nice kick for the first 50-200ms and then sine. fading in.. guys.. possibly advise on your settings?

BB

3 years ago|
0 comments

Sneakyfreq

contribution
1 answer -1 votes received

-1 votes

Here is how I make my favorite Kick - Open Drum Rack - Open Kick folder - double click on Kick 909 - Open Audio Effects Rack - Open Compressor - double click on Drums Kick Compressor - Then right click on Kick 909 window and click on Group - click on the list button in the group window then right click on Kick 909 and click on duplicate then for the second instance you created (click on it to display) you can change the kick tone to get a fuller kick sound or just leave it the same as the first - to fatten it up even more drop a Sausage Fattener VST effect on it - 7% fatness with a 25% color is what I've found very effective.

3 years ago|
0 comments

Lumix

contribution
1 answer -2 votes received

-2 votes

hmm i simply put 2 times the same kickdrum in my Drumrack and then filter/ use the ADSR indivitually to create a low and a high kick.

sometimes i added a short hat on it to generate the transient of the kickdrum.

and in the most of the times my low kick gets eq at 80-110Hz depending on the track to make it wamer.

then some compression on top to give it a bit more transient and loudness.

Metrum is vengeance crap. tried it and i dont feel like it was it worth.

to make a kickdrum from scratch u need not really much - its easy i think u can do that easy with a sine wave in the sampler or the simpler then add a pitch envolope on it.

problem is that u have to compress or layer it a few times.

i know that vengeance kicks are normally high compressed and they are layer up to 5 times. so keep that layering in ur mind when u do ur own kicks from scratch.

3 years ago|
0 comments

You need to be logged in, have a Live license, and
have a username
set in your account to be able to answer questions.