SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: There is nothing sacrosanct. I would have yielded to Mr.
Narayanasamy. It is not a big
matter. But he has not spoken on the
issue. That is number one. Now he wants to seek some
clarification. (Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In fact, they withdrew two speakers. (Interruptions)....

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Can't Congress Members seek clarifications,
if they have not spoken?
(Interruptions)...

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Even if you are not present in the House,
you can seek clarifications.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Nobody can do that. There is no rule like that.

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: I agree with you. Why are you quarrelling unnecessarily at this late hour?

Sir, the point is that I am, at least,
happy on one thing that the Finance Minister was honest to admit the so-called
Control Order of which the Congress Chief Minister made a big issue. Now, the cat is out of the bag and the truth
has come out. The second issue is that
they have misled the nation to some extent.

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Now I want to compliment you for the
same. (Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We are not raising another debate. Please seek clarifications. (Interruptions)...

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: We are not ready to join issue with them on
this. Now the debate is over. (Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please seek clarifications. There is no debate.

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: I am just seeking clarifications. He has said that you don't know the writer's
way or whatever it is and you must know how to read also. So, I couldn't read it the way our Finance
Minister has said it. He has
practically justified the price rise.
He has not announced even a single relief to the suffering masses. This is my concern. He has asked me to go to his chamber. I can go to his chamber; I like him also.
He is very intelligent. I admire
him also for his intelligence.

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: What is the relief to the people who are
suffering? Do you think that the prices
have really risen or that it is only a creation of the media and the
Opposition? Sir, just with a jugglery
of figures, he was trying to justify each and every thing. The entire country is watching. The people are suffering.
(Interruptions)....

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You please seek clarifications. Whatever he has to say he said. What can I do? (Interruptions)....

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Whatever he has to say, he will say. I said in the morning also that he was not
going to change his attitude in spite of our friends on this side... (Interruptions)...

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: What is the clarification?

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: The clarifications which I want are: What are the measures, except imports which
you have mentioned, that you are taking to see that the prices which have risen
are brought down? Do you have any
scheme? Do you have any programme? Please take the House into confidence and
tell us.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I am seeking some clarifications. I would like to express our deep
disappointment with the way the Finance Minister has addressed this issue. It seems to me that the distance between
Tamil Nadu and Delhi is so far that the Finance Minister has forgotten that
implementing the Essential Commodities Act and accessible prices to the people
was the key which allowed the formation of the DMK Government in Tamil Nadu.
Mr. Chidambaram has himself campaigned on the platform and the language used in
Tamil Nadu and Delhi is totally different.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please seek clarifications.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: No, I have to say this. The clarification is this. First, let him talk about the language that
he used in Tamil Nadu and the language he used in Parliament here. The difference reflects the policy
differences. He says that it is not a
new liberal policy. What is it? Does he want to give a new nomenclature to
it? The fact is that his admission
today is that the Government has utterly retreated from the basic minimum
responsibility of providing food security to the people of this country. I have three questions. (Contd. by VK/3U)

VK/3U/6.05

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT (CONTD): He said,
"The State Governments have done it". They have got some understanding between themselves. He said, "Okay, you are not that
bad". They said, "Okay, you
are not that bad". That is between
them. I don't know that. What we want to know is this. Is the Finance Minister going to rescind two
orders, one, about the change in the Essential Commodities Act which brought
down the number of essential commodities from 79 to 15 by the NDA
Government? Secondly, is the Government
going to rescind the Government Order which says that there are no restrictions
on the amount of stocks which can be hoarded by big traders? Let him answer that. Secondly, he has talked about regulations of
future trading. We have made a very
specific demand which is being supported by Shri Sharad Yadav, who also was the
Agriculture Minister. We have said that
you remove essential commodities from future trading. That is the question here.
You have talked about regulations of future trading. That is fine. But the question here is:
Are you or are you not going to accept the demand to remove essential
commodities from future trading? My
third question is about the Public Distribution System. He has given some * things.
I am sorry to use such words.
But when we go...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please don't use such word. This word
should be removed.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I
withdraw that word. But the fact is
this. There is a saying 'Lies lie in
statistics'. I do not know what
statistics are being used here. It is
a fact that wheat allocations to the
Public Distribution System have been cut from around 23 lakh tonnes to 8 lakh
tonnes. This is a fact. Has it been done in consultation with any
State Government? Have they even
bothered to find out why the APL off-take is so low? They are not bothered because their one commitment has destroyed
the PDS. Therefore, I have to say it
very clearly that my party is not at all satisfied with this. We strongly protest against petrol price
hike and diesel price hike. The figures
that the

----------------------------------------------------

*Expunged
as ordered by the Chair.

Finance
Minister has given quoting that he has received a signed letter from my party
Headquarters.....

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Brindaji, I cannot start a fresh
debate.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: I am sorry, Sir. I do not have a sense of humour when such issues are discussed
which concern the people. I am sorry to
say this. I have to....(Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I cannot allow separate debate on
this.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, he has raised this issue. He said....(Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The system is, Members participate in the
debate and the Minister replies to the debate.
After that we allow Members to seek certain clarifications, but there
cannot be a fresh debate.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: All right, Sir. I am seeking clarifications.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You said that you have to seek three
clarifications. I have noted down your
three clarifications.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: My last clarification is this. The Government has given a note quoting
certain figures. Is it or is it not a
fact that the revenue earned by the Government, as far as this entire issue of
petrol and diesel is concerned, has gone up from Rs. 96,000 crores in 2002-03
to Rs. 1,26,000 crores in 2005-06? Is
it not a fact that these were the figures which were supplied in the Status
Paper given by the Government? You give
one set of figures when it pleases you and you give another set of figures when
you want to justify the price hike....

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have made your point.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: We cannot accept it. (Ends)

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: Sir, I have to seek three
clarifications. Like a very good
Professor of Economics, he said he is
not a trained economist, but he gave a very good lecture here on theory. But when we come to practice; what is the
reality on the ground, 'the taste of the pudding is in the eating'. Those people have not enough to eat. The question is this. He mentioned about the demand and supply
side. He talked in length about the
demand.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You seek your clarification.

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: What are you doing specifically on the
supply side? Agriculture land, as I
mentioned, is getting out of your hands.
Is it true that you are also permitting mutual fund on real estate?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please seek clarifications.

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI: Supply side is a separate question and
mutual fund is a separate question. (Contd. by 3W)

RG/PSV/6.10/3W

SHRI DINESH TRIVEDI (contd.): Are you giving permission for mutual funds
in real estate? If you do that, more
and more agricultural lands would be taken away by the land sharks.

SHRI SHARAD ANANTRAO JOSHI: As I mentioned in the last debate, I
thought the current economic philosopher of the Government was Amartya
Sen. Since Mrs. Karat has accused the
Finance Minister of dual federalism, and the Finance Minister confirmed that he
believed in market mechanism,...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please, I will not allow everybody.

SHRI SHARAD ANANTRAO JOSHI: If he believes in the Essential Commodities
Act, if he does not believe in future's market and if he believes in direct
import of wheat, what kind of a market mechanism does he believe in?

SHRI V.
NARAYANASAMY: I
understand from the debate that the hon. senior Members from the other side
have been putting blame on the Central Government. Sir, it is the collective responsibility of the Central
Government as well as the State Governments to keep the prices under control,
irrespective of the fact whether the States are ruled by the ruling party or by
the opposition party...(Interruptions)

SHRI C.
RAMACHANDRAIAH: He
is supplementing the efforts of the hon. Minister.

SHRI V.
NARAYANASAMY: I
will have to give a prelude before seeking my clarification. In the matter of procurement, the States
have to cooperate with the Central Government.
I am not blaming the State Governments when they seek allocation for
distribution of essential commodities through the Public Distribution
System. But they are also responsible
for procurement. In important States
like Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, etc. procurement has been a
problem...(Interruptions)

SHRI RAMDAS
AGARWAL: He is not giving
the figures. He is just saying that the
States have not procured what was required...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, everybody cannot get up and speak. Mr. Narayanasamy, please seek
clarifications. We have to end the
debate...(Interruptions)

SHRI TAPAN KUMAR
SEN: Sir, I would just
seek two clarifications...

MR. DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN: The entire
House cannot seek clarifications...(Interruptions) Your party has already been given time. Then, everybody would like to speak.

SHRI V.
NARAYANASAMY: I want to
know from the hon. Minister that in case of sugar production...(Interruptions)

SHRI RAMDAS
AGARWAL: We are having a
discussion on price rise on the part of the Central Government. But he is pointing fingers at the State
Governments just for nothing.

SHRI V. NARAYANSAMY: You have not understood what I said.

Sir, as far as sugar production is concerned,
the hon. Minister stated that it is 170 lakh tons. Now, the farmers are crying for a better price for sugarcane. In the absence of this, sugarcane cultivation
in the lands has come down...(Interruptions)
Madam, I did not interrupt you when you spoke.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Narayanasamy, please seek
clarifications. I am not allowing you
for a debate. I am allowing you only to
seek clarifications.

SHRI V.
NARAYANASAMY: I
will come straightaway to my point of clarification. There has been a demand from the farmers to increase the
remunerative price of sugarcane so that the sugarcane cultivation can improve,
and there will be more production. I
want to know from the Government whether they are considering this demand of
increasing the remunerative prices. (Followed
by 3X)

3x/6.15/ks-klg

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I thought I had listed the measures
that we had taken on the fiscal and monetary side, and the supply side. But since Shri Venkaiah Naidu wants me to
repeat it, let me repeat it.

Government has already announced that thirty-five lakh tonnes
of wheat will be imported by State agencies; wheat is also now on OGL. Government has announced the release of
forty-two lakh tonnes of free-sale sugar for the quarter April-June, 2006,
which is eight lakh tonnes higher than the releases during the corresponding
period of last year. Customs duty on
import of pulses was reduced to zero on June 8 and ban was imposed on export of
pulses. Import of sugar was permitted
at zero duty ...(Interruptions)... You want our clarifications. When I read it, you do not want to listen!
Import of sugar was permitted at zero duty.
Export was banned till the end of the current financial year. Decision was taken to permit private traders
to import wheat at a reduced duty of five per cent.

To contain
volatility in the future price of wheat, sugar and pulses, pending the Bill,
Forward Markets Commission has taken the following steps. It has reduced the circuit filter limit. In
the case of wheat and sugar, the daily price fluctuation limits were reduced.
Special margins were imposed and compulsory delivery put in place for urad and
lemon are high. More steps will be
taken once the Bill is in place.

These are the
steps taken on the supply side. On fiscal side, as I have said, we have reduced
the import duty on wheat and on sugar.
Monetary steps have been taken by the Reserve Bank of India. Further steps, as I have always said, will
be taken from time to time depending upon the need, especially on the supply
side.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, the only significant contribution that
Mrs. Swaraj has been able to make is, announce the walk-out.

Now, as far as Shrimati Karat's questions
are concerned, she will appreciate that I cannot, because I am not the Minister
in-charge, give any categorical assurance on the first and second questions
that you have raised. But I will
explain the thinking in the Government...

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, what is the point of any discussion on
price rise if he cannot ensure some concrete measures? What is the point of a discussion, Sir?

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, we are totally opposed to this
approach. They announce the measures when it is convenient to them. On retail,
they will announce the measures without discussion. On price rise, he is not prepared to announce any measures. I am sorry, Sir. We are totally opposed.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: She is not listening to what I am saying,
Sir.

(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He has not
yet completed.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I said I cannot give a categorical answer,
Sir, whether the Control Order will be rescinded or future trading in
commodities will be banned. This falls
within the authority of the Minister of Agriculture and Food. I will explain the position. I will convey the House's views to the
Minister and, I am sure, he will come and make whatever announcements have to
be made. That is all I am trying to
say. (Interruptions)...

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE: No, Sir.
We wanted to curb hoarding and we wanted a specific assurance from the
Minister. The Agriculture Minister is
not here. That is not the reply.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I can't give this assurance.
(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What do you expect the Chair to do? You have participated in the debate. The Minister has replied. Beyond that, what do you expect? What do you expect the Chair to do? (Interruptions)...

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: On the third question, Sir, I have already
given the figures. I do not know what
figures Shrimati Karat is quoting. I am
sure she has got it from somebody.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, what's this?

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I have already given the figures. Petroleum figures are....

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, we totally protest against this answer
and walk out of the House.

(At this stage, some hon.
Members left the Chamber.)

(Followed by
3y/tdb)

TDB-AKA/3Y/6.20

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I have
given the figures of the Customs and Excise revenues of the petroleum sector,
and those figures are the correct figures. Those figures are the correct
figures. I cannot comment on what figures she has got. I have given the figures
for 2004-05; I have given the figures for 2005-06. I stand by the figures. I am
in-charge of the revenues. I know what Customs and Excise revenues are
collected from the petroleum sector, and the figures that I have given are the
correct figures.

Sir, thirdly, a question was asked about
supply side. Now, I have said that supply side means augmenting the
availability of essential commodities within the country, both public stocks
and private stocks. If there is an overall supply-demand gap in the country, that
can only be met by imports, and there is nothing wrong in imports. I take
support from what Dr. Arjun Sengupta has said. The import is the correct way to
augment availability of essential commodities which are in short supply.

Fourthly, Sir, there is nothing wrong in
State import of wheat. I mean, again, as I said, on the one hand, we have got a
powerful voice arguing for a dirigistic
economy. On the other hand, we have a powerful voice arguing for a
totally capitalistic economy. The State agencies are importing wheat. Wheat is
on the OGL. The private traders can also import wheat. Both can import wheat
into the country, and there is nothing wrong with State agencies importing
wheat.

And, finally, Sir, on sugarcane, I would
like to say that the price of sugarcane is decided every year by the Cabinet
based on the CACP recommendations. The CACP recommendations are due on the
price of sugarcane for the ensuing year. And, once the CACP recommendations
come, the Cabinet will take an appropriate decision on the price of sugarcane. (Ends)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, there is a
statement by the Minister. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: Sir, we have
spent nearly three hours on this.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, six hours.

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: What is the
outcome of this debate?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is for you
to assess. ...(Interruptions)... It is not for me to say. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no. I
am not. ...(Interruptions)... That debate is over. I have called the hon.
Minister to make the statement.

SHRI C. RAMACHANDRAIAH: What I am
trying to ascertain is...(Interruptions)... To elicit this information, we
should have posed some questions, instead of disturbing the hon. Minister for
three hours. But, ultimately, what is his concern? What are the constructive
measures that the Government is taking to reduce the burden of the common man?
Sir, no concrete measures have been announced.

MR.DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr.
Ramachandraiah, I have called the Minister.

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Sir, if you
are not allowing clarifications...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, I am.
...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Sir, I am
asking a different thing. If you are not allowing clarifications, then, let it
be laid on the Table of the House.