In a weekend interview with Rapport’s Hendrik Cronje, John Smit has downplayed talk of a “financial crisis” at the Sharks and shared a little insight from his perspective on the decision to let Jacques Potgieter head to Pretoria.

According to Smit, holding onto the player, who has spent the entire season injured and would only be able to contribute in the final 3 matches of the current campaign anyway, simply doesn’t make financial sense. The Sharks CEO revealed that Potgieter was advised by the Sharks medical staff back in November that he should seek medical attention regarding his ankle and that to continue to play would only worsen the injury. That advice was seemingly ignored and there must have been more than a little unhappiness when Potgieter arrived in Durban late in January still carrying the injury.

Again according to Smit, a request was made very early on to release Potgieter to the Bulls, since his fiancée apparently didn’t want to live in Durban. The Sharks denied the request at that stage and opted to keep the player on and put him through rehab, in the hope of getting at least half a season out of him. That didn’t eventuate as the injury persisted and the decision now has been to do what’s presumably in the best interests of everybody and let Potgieter play where he’s apparently wanted to play all along – back in Pretoria.

Smit did acknowledge that competing with overseas offers for players is hard, due to the weak Rand. This is not really anything surprising, nor is it a problem that affects the Sharks more than any other local franchise. While it is true that foreign clubs are trying to sign Willie le Roux and the du Preez twins, the Sharks are negotiating hard and will go as far as they can to retain all three players. The money saved on Potgieter and Renaldo Bothma will only help to make those offers stronger.

270 Comments

Again proves that there are always at least two sides to a story and casts Potgieter’s Twitter rant into another light having now read John’s interview.

Comment 1, posted at 23.05.16 10:56:39 by vanmartin

Yeh sorry i dont buy this sob story. This signing was very poorly handled and they should just come out and say it. The fact that he was signed in the first place showed that we needed to fill a gap…so i dont buy into this storyline of he wasnt needed. Sharks should just come out and admit they messed this one up royally.

Comment 2, posted at 23.05.16 10:58:29 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 2) : whether he was needed or not is moot. He’s crocked, so wasn’t there for us when he was needed.

Comment 3, posted at 23.05.16 11:05:37 by robdylan

Interesting to read.still ,what does one make of the remarks on twitter?so contract has been paid up to release?does it make sense to let the player leave now just as he is finished with rehab?3 games left of normal season,yes,but the sharks are still in contention for play-off spot.

@robdylan (Comment 3) : He should have then been turfed out as soon as his injury was assessed as long term. We spent the time and money getting him fit so should have then kept him for another year to get a return. It was just very poor from the Sharks from the start to finish.

Comment 6, posted at 23.05.16 11:14:21 by SheldonK

So is retention of the twins the real reason for the release of bothma and potgieter?how much will they be offered?marcell also is leaving.his contract was in the budget for next 2 seasons.

Comment 7, posted at 23.05.16 11:14:30 by 50shadesofshark

Doesn’t say much of a guy’s character when he goes on a Twitter rant saying Sharks “chased” him away? Agree with Smitty that keeping him would have been a bad business call. If there is unhappiness between player and union, then it can so easily filter through to the rest of the guys and spread negativity. We only want players that WANT to be there. If you are not prepared to bleed for the jersey, F off

Comment 8, posted at 23.05.16 11:15:38 by Another Nick

Jpp also leaving.his and marcell 2 big contracts off the books.joe p in negotations.seems as if he is leaving.

Comment 9, posted at 23.05.16 11:21:29 by 50shadesofshark

@Another Nick (Comment 8) : you are assuming the explanation is correct 100%.need an interview with potgieter.is the union in financial distress?how much will the twins be offered?

Comment 10, posted at 23.05.16 11:25:23 by 50shadesofshark

Would not blame willie if he opted for the big money signing.glad no serious injury was caused to him in the landers game,but it showed just how quick it can change for a pro sportsman.for anyone.

Comment 11, posted at 23.05.16 11:34:25 by 50shadesofshark

Are any players on long term contracts at the Sharks or all just 1 year? Bothma, Potgieter gone…JPP, Joe Pieterson and Marcel all leaving. Possibly LeRoux and maybe the twins (although i dont think so). How long was Univavi’s deal- if only 1 year then his signing was pointless as he hasnt contributed to super rugby. Ruan Botha also hasnt contributed so how long is his deal? Giant going back to Pumas. How long do we have Van Der Walt ? Its all well and good have a building year but if the bricks all leave then what exactly have you built?

@SheldonK (Comment 12) : great point.uanivi on a 2 year deal.giant is 31 and only plays no4.botha 2 year deal.vd walt I assume 2 year deal.

Comment 14, posted at 23.05.16 11:46:23 by 50shadesofshark

@West Indies Cricket Board (Comment 13) : he was accused of only using the sharks for rehab whilst negotiating a deal with the buLls.player responded by saying the person should rather go and ask the sharks why they are chasing away players.

Comment 15, posted at 23.05.16 11:49:18 by 50shadesofshark

I found it

Comment 16, posted at 23.05.16 11:50:29 by West Indies Cricket Board

@50shadesofshark (Comment 15) : Thanks, a bit trigger-happy in his response there

Comment 17, posted at 23.05.16 11:53:19 by West Indies Cricket Board

@West Indies Cricket Board (Comment 17) : maybe upset at his integrity being questioned and his character being slandered?we need the full facts.remember what happened in december with players being told they are no longer needed,so make alternative plans?was this the same situation?did botham leave out of his own free will?potgieter was signed on a 2 year superrugby only deal.was he planning on honouring that deal?or just to play out this one season and then negotiate a release?just bring all the facts to the table.

Comment 18, posted at 23.05.16 12:00:08 by 50shadesofshark

Potgieter is advised to get his ankle sorted, ignores the Sharks medical advice and stays crocked….Sharks decide to funds his rehab in spite of Potgieter requesting to move to Pretoria (want mamma het gepraat), and in spite of Potgieter being injured due to his negligence, now the Sharks finally decide to let him go to Pretoria (as they are throwing good money in the water) – and somehow the Sharks are in the wrong here?

Should have given him the boot after he showed blatant disregard for their medical advice – but the Sharks are better than that, they won’t put players out on the street…..but sure, let’s use this too as a reason to find fault with the Sharks.

Comment 19, posted at 23.05.16 12:05:41 by FireTheLooser

Interesting to note the Sharks team that played the Bulls at Loftus in Round 3 in 2015:
15. SP Marais 14. Odwa Ndungane 13. Waylon Murray 12. Andre Esterhuizen 11. Lwazi Mvovo 10. Patrick Lambie 9. Cobus Reinach 8. Ryan Kankowski 7. Renaldo Bothma 6. Marcell Coetzee 5. Pieter-Steph du Toit 4. Lubabalo Mtyanda 3. Jannie du Plessis 2. Bismarck du Plessis (C) 1. Dale Chadwick
Compare that to the team we currently have? Quite a few different. Wonder how many will be different the next year.
Why are the Lions so good…they have retained their core group and have kept them fit and playing. The Lions without Janjies, Whitely, Kriel, Mapoe would be a very different team.

Comment 20, posted at 23.05.16 12:06:15 by SheldonK

@50shadesofshark (Comment 18) : JP is obviously generalising when saying that the Sharks are not looking after their players. I have to agree with him. look at how many players are coming and going each season. The manner in which he feels is obviously the same way allot of other rugby players feel about the Sharks.

Comment 21, posted at 23.05.16 12:10:37 by Uli Boelie

@FireTheLooser (Comment 19) : so if the player did ask for a release as per the article,then why not allow it?gold said pogieter was always positive and the team enjoyed having him around?does that sound like someone unhappy about where he is?

Comment 22, posted at 23.05.16 12:12:44 by 50shadesofshark

@SheldonK (Comment 20) : Look how great SP has become since joining the Bulls, he is the same players that played for the King and his first season at the Sharks. How did the Sharks manage to break this okes rugby down to a no body. He obv has some talent, why do the Sharks do that?

@Uli Boelie (Comment 23) : The fear of mistakes and the backlash should he make one or two. He has made mistakes playing for the Bulls…but those arent highlighted…the good things he does is highlighted. And thats the difference why players at the Sharks look ‘scared’ to play and have a go. The Lions get a hiding by the Canes and the next game they win well and all thats mentioned is the good game. Would the Sharks players get that same treatment? Very much doubt it. Sharks play with a fear of failure.

Comment 25, posted at 23.05.16 12:17:41 by SheldonK

The Anti-Sharks-Sharks-fans, out in full voice again

@50shadesofshark (Comment 22) : His girlfriend told him to move – so whether he was happy or not: mamma het gepraat.

Comment 26, posted at 23.05.16 12:20:10 by FireTheLooser

@FireTheLooser (Comment 26) : Let me tell you this, the Sharks do have a long history of breaking players.

Comment 27, posted at 23.05.16 12:22:26 by Uli Boelie

@FireTheLooser (Comment 26) : you can’t paint me with that brush.every time they wanted to lynch gold,I tried to chop the tree down.I started supporting the sharks when they were still the banana boys playing in the b-section.

Comment 28, posted at 23.05.16 12:34:44 by 50shadesofshark

@SheldonK (Comment 25) : is that true with the current coaching set-up?

Comment 29, posted at 23.05.16 12:36:50 by 50shadesofshark

Look, guys, a union will never be able to keep everyone happy. That is just the way it is. You will always get disgruntled players for what ever reason. Be it, not being picked to play, money disputes, the coach is too strict or what have you. Not just the Sharks but everywhere. I do not believe for a second there is a negative vibe and all the players want to suddenly leave. In JP case, we only have this side of the story. Smitty was prepared to give us these details, even though he didn’t have to. I am of the opinion that JP’s rant is nothing more than sour grapes. And of course, like @FireTheLooser (Comment 26) : said: Mamma het gepraat.

Comment 30, posted at 23.05.16 12:37:31 by Another Nick

@50shadesofshark (Comment 18) : I think that’s a fair point. Questioning a player’s integrity on Twitter, you’re either going to be ignored or be attacked in kind. Unfortunately though, I doubt we’ll ever have all the facts available to us.

I do however think it’s reasonable to conclude that the Sharks weren’t completely in the wrong here even though some aspects could certainly have been handled better by them. As I remarked in my initial comment, this interview simply highlights that there is always another side to every story and I’m grateful we were at least allowed some insight.

Comment 31, posted at 23.05.16 12:46:31 by vanmartin

@50shadesofshark (Comment 29) : To an extent yes it remains…but the coaching staff are also under that same fear of mistakes. There are slight glimpses of change but nothing very tangible. One of the most important comments from Gold that has gone unnoticed to a large extent as yet is that after the game he spoke about emphasizing decision making to the players and how they can be so much more effective when taking the simple option rather than trying the most complicated one.

Comment 32, posted at 23.05.16 12:49:09 by SheldonK

@Another Nick (Comment 30) : will the union not perhaps struggle to sign new players if this is the way they are perceived by players to go about their business?you can be hyped today and next week it is, ” ok,look for a new team,but in the mean time you’re only allowed to use the gym.” Not saying this is what happened here. there is just so much contradiction .

Comment 33, posted at 23.05.16 12:51:50 by 50shadesofshark

@vanmartin (Comment 31) : If the Sharks had required Pottie to play out the remainder of the Super rugby season and then leave i dont think the backlash would be as harsh as it is now. Rather get a few weeks of return from the guy than nothing. Especially as the Sharks are fighting the Bulls for a playoff spot.

Comment 34, posted at 23.05.16 12:53:08 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 34) : exactly.though I would have preferred him to stay next season too.actually think he can add for another 2 seasons.liked what I heard from gold re: the player’s positve attitude and that his team mates enjoyed having him around.would just like to know if he wanted to play out his 2 year deal at the sharks.and even then I think he could add value when ready-even if for maybe just 3 games.

Comment 35, posted at 23.05.16 13:02:55 by 50shadesofshark

@SheldonK (Comment 34) : I suspect they’re reluctant to field a guy who doesn’t want to be there. Pottie obviously has plans to settle down in Pretoria along with his girlfriend. I say let him get on with where his heart is. Might mean Johan du Toit gets a bench spot at some point in the season which is not the worst thing in the world.

Comment 36, posted at 23.05.16 13:03:00 by vanmartin

@vanmartin (Comment 36) : They should have cut ties in February then not end of May when he is about to play. If they waited this long they should have kept him the rest of the season and made him play..even in the CC side so the kids can learn and maybe not catch 50pts. Seems start to finish this was handled very badly but each side just points fingers. And now precedent has been laid for any guy wanting to jump out of his contract before its term is up.

Comment 37, posted at 23.05.16 13:18:50 by SheldonK

I haven’t read all the comments so not sure if already mentioned. But has anyone thought that perhaps Sharks thought they needed That blue cow, because they weren’t expecting the twins to adapt so well and so soon to SR? Since they did, and Terra and Van Der ginger are in such form that his limping services are no longer seen as necessary? As to his tweeter rant he probably thought the Sharks would beg him to stay and when JS sais please go his nose was put out of joint????? Also everyone calling him snake couldn’t have helped his mood!????

I haven’t read all the comments so not sure if already mentioned. But has anyone thought that perhaps Sharks thought they needed That blue cow, because they weren’t expecting the twins to adapt so well and so soon to SR? Since they did, and Terra and Van Der ginger are in such form that his limping services are no longer seen as necessary? As to his tweeter rant he probably thought the Sharks would beg him to stay and when JS sais please go his nose was put out of joint????? Also everyone calling him snake couldn’t have helped his mood!????

@vanmartin (Comment 36) : Streamers will be very eager to see Johan du Toit’s progress under the Sharks – we’ve already done wonders for his older boet, the only Streamer able to live up to the streamers media hype.

Comment 40, posted at 23.05.16 13:25:01 by FireTheLooser

@FireTheLooser (Comment 41) : I’m also very keen to see how he progresses.

Comment 41, posted at 23.05.16 13:26:41 by 50shadesofshark

glad to have gotten insight or the other side of the story

however I felt that even with tera and frans back we look thin in the loosie department and more importantly Pottie brought a different talent to blind side than what the twins and tera can, pottie is more willem alberts where as the twins and tera are more skillful players not blunt objects. we need players with different skill sets

Comment 42, posted at 23.05.16 13:27:19 by revolverocelot

@SheldonK (Comment 37) : This is exactly where all the facts would come in handy to figure out the timeline. I’m guessing a lot of this is dependant on when the missus put the foot down about moving down to Durban and when exactly other clubs started enquiring about the du Preez brothers. But because we don’t have the full story on either side, I’m reluctant to buy too much into any opinion that places the blame squarely with Pottie or the Sharks. Regarding precedent, I’m afraid that ship sailed before the Pottie incident.

Comment 43, posted at 23.05.16 13:35:56 by vanmartin

@vanmartin (Comment 44) : What i dont understand is why he didnt retain the player for a couple more weeks? I mean we had already paid money to get him fit so why not use him…he is a quality player. Seems as though the relationship was strained and perhaps the missus throwing in her 3 cents made it break down. I just feel the Sharks now need to plug a hole with his,Bothma and Coetzee departures…either through acquisition or getting guys they have up to standard

Comment 44, posted at 23.05.16 13:51:54 by SheldonK

@vanmartin (Comment 1) : Is what I have been saying too. Lest we forget we are also dealing with some big ego’s here too. Sometimes those ego’s get in the way of amicable solutions.

Comment 45, posted at 23.05.16 13:52:42 by coolfusion

@FireTheLooser (Comment 40) : @50shadesofshark (Comment 41) : Dont get too excited…i have no doubt younger Du Toit will also join his brother in the Cape eventually

Comment 46, posted at 23.05.16 13:53:48 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 44) : May have been some harsh words and tempers getting the best of them. Would also explain the twitter rant now instead of earlier.

Comment 47, posted at 23.05.16 13:54:36 by coolfusion

@SheldonK (Comment 48) : eventually.. as in 10 years time to help with the running of the family farm?

@coolfusion (Comment 47) : Makes sense. I can imagine there is some tension about when an injured player can and should resume playing etc.

Comment 50, posted at 23.05.16 14:07:43 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 50) : Ja and look I agree with John. Jackpot has always been more of a bull than a shark. And maybe his girl being upset plus him feeling that all this time has been wasted added to this. Would have been good for management to sit down early with him and rationalize this. But then again there may not have been an offer on the table from the bulls earlier which there now is. Anyways its too much unknowns for me. So I stick with my broken record mantra. You can’t miss what you never had. So farewell dude, hope you are happy at the Bulls.

Comment 51, posted at 23.05.16 14:15:11 by coolfusion

@coolfusion (Comment 51) : Will be interesting to see if he gets a game there or kept till next year. Jason Jenkins has been decent but Potgieter alongside RG Snyman would be a seriously good combo for the Bulls. Bothma is playing in the CC only it seems…wonder how he is feeling

Comment 52, posted at 23.05.16 14:24:02 by SheldonK

@FireTheLooser (Comment 19) : Pull the other one, do you really believe the Sharks can dish out medical advice / tell players how and when to play while they are contracted to another union / team. I guess JPP’s new bosses can tell us when and how to play him.

Comment 53, posted at 23.05.16 14:35:22 by Salmonoid the Subtle

@SheldonK (Comment 44) : just a point on timing of the release – remember that when a player is ‘bought’ out of an existing contract the ‘buying union’ pays a cash amount to the ‘selling union’ to get him out of the balance of the contract – therefore the timing may have allowed to recoup some of the losses

Comment 54, posted at 23.05.16 14:43:15 by Julesgr8ter

Hows this for a tweet from Potgieter “Great being back at this special place with this legend! @renaldobothma” followed by a photo of him and Bothma in their Blue Bulls gear. Best of all its on the official Sharks website under his profile. Wakey, wakey Sharks admin, people are getting in digs at you at your own expense.

Very brazen by Potgieter and Bothma, but also pretty funny.

Comment 55, posted at 23.05.16 14:44:56 by Salmonoid the Subtle

@Julesgr8ter (Comment 54) : i would be very surprised if the Bulls paid a large sum of money. At the most they would have paid out the remainder of this years contract.

Comment 56, posted at 23.05.16 14:47:08 by SheldonK

@FireTheLooser (Comment 26) : Pot, kettle, black. Sorry there can be no bigger anti Sharks, Sharks fan than the ones that saw fit to take to FB to get one of our most successful coaches fired.

Comment 57, posted at 23.05.16 14:50:08 by Salmonoid the Subtle

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 55) : Unfortunately, “Sharks admin” and “efficiency” are very, very far apart, and ne’er the twain shall meet… or at least, not any time soon.

I honestly don’t think either the sharks or Pottie deserves the flak they’re getting over this. It’s an unfortunate lose lose situation for both. I’ve got no doubt that Pottie would’ve loved to run out, as would the Sharks.

With the amount of interest in the twins growing and the need to secure their services becoming a real priority meant making some tough decisions. Letting Pottie go would make the most sense.

Comment 60, posted at 23.05.16 15:06:31 by gregkaos

@gregkaos (Comment 60) : For the National cause i hope the Bulls play Pottie at lock…

Comment 61, posted at 23.05.16 15:09:49 by SheldonK

@Sharksmad – The Blog’s Dudette (Comment 38) : Or maybe the Sharks thought that having their dad on board in the coaches box would make them easy to snap up at a bargain price…..just a thought.

Btw, how are you, did you renew your season ticket for this year?

Comment 62, posted at 23.05.16 15:14:37 by Salmonoid the Subtle

Not sure why you bothered with the article Rob; a balanced view is seemingly not welcome on SW anymore. Far more popular to suddenly assume that Potgieter was the victim of villainous Sharks administrators.

Comment 63, posted at 23.05.16 15:20:24 by Big Fish

@Big Fish (Comment 63) : Balanced view, I think that will be somewhere between what Potgieter tweeted and what Smittie said. But then I see that front cover of the May (this months) edition of the Sharks Magazines with Potgieter in all his glory, and I start wondering about who is blowing smoke up whose ass.

Comment 64, posted at 23.05.16 15:40:05 by Salmonoid the Subtle

I’m with Smit on this one. If the oke really wants to go, let him go. Better for all concerned.

Comment 65, posted at 23.05.16 15:48:21 by Dragnipur

All I can say is if we have some spare cash now maybe we can try get one of the kriel brothers back from the bulls.

Comment 66, posted at 23.05.16 16:10:48 by coolfusion

@coolfusion (Comment 66) : Not sure about them anymore, Jesse Kriel has gone seriously off the boil since before the world cup. Dan Kriel, I cant really comment on as have hardly seen him play.

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 64) :
I agree with you; but then I dont see too many taking the line that maybe Potgieter isnt in fact the mistreated victim here.

For me its pretty simple – the guy wanted to go the Bulls earlier, we held onto him to see how things went with the twins, Tera and Daniel. As he is now surplus to requirements, we have elected to let the Bulls buy him out. Not sure why he or anyone here would feel that he was screwed over in that.

Sure we lost money in paying for his rehab while we waited to see if our current loosies kicked on, but that is the cost of managing risk, and it was absolutely the right call given circumstances at the time. Storm in a teacup.

Comment 69, posted at 23.05.16 16:33:18 by Big Fish

In other news, it looks like the rugby gods have handed Pat Lambie the starting flyhalf jumped for the mid-year tests. Jantjies out for 3 weeks.

Rub it in Heyneke’s face Pat!

Comment 70, posted at 23.05.16 16:36:49 by Big Fish

@Big Fish (Comment 69) : Have you considered that perhaps Potgieter’s rant was not really about himself but rather is mate Bothma. I think the pic Salmo referred to of him and Bothma at the Bulls tells a story. Bothma was surplus to Sharks needs and he was let go, he was probably upset and felt he was being pushed out. Here comes mate Pottie with the chance to publicly have a shot at the Sharks about Bothma. Please note, he did not say he was run out, he said find out why players are run out, to me sounds like he is talking about Bothma, not himself. He is probably upset the Sharks held onto him as long as they did after his girlfriend insisted he move to Pretoria.

Comment 71, posted at 23.05.16 16:40:55 by Dancing Bear

@SheldonK (Comment 68) : My I think nz and aussies have bought the ones worth buying. The remainder are so do they are just bargaining on them getting it wrong on theirbown nine out of ten.

Comment 72, posted at 23.05.16 16:47:01 by coolfusion

@coolfusion (Comment 72) : Ugh auto complete. Let’s try again. The remainder are so dof you can count on them getting it wrong nine out of ten times on their own…

Comment 73, posted at 23.05.16 16:49:34 by coolfusion

@Dancing Bear (Comment 71) : Well it sounds like letting him go is right. If he had a sour taste for the sharks, for whatever reason. It’s best we part ways. Since he is non longer a shark let’s focus on those who are.

Comment 74, posted at 23.05.16 16:53:11 by coolfusion

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 67) : Dan actually seemed more like the prospect at center than Jesse. But in bulls lineup there are some established names to compete with one of whom is Jesse. I think we could better utilise him. But I doubt you can break up the matching set.

Comment 75, posted at 23.05.16 16:55:34 by coolfusion

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 57) : Bulls fans also couldn’t wait to get rid of the bulls most successful coach….easy to be successful when all the ground work had been done for you.

Comment 76, posted at 23.05.16 17:18:48 by FireTheLooser

@Dancing Bear (Comment 71) :
You could be right. But ultimately even that is purely a business decision, and despite the players’ subjective opinions, Bothma was not disadvantaged or mistreated.

Comment 77, posted at 23.05.16 17:57:14 by Big Fish

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 64) : Blowing smoke up someone’s ass… one has to wonder what the origin of *that* phrase was!? Sadly, I don’t think my Brewer’s Dictionary of Phrase and Fable is going to provide me with an answer

Comment 78, posted at 23.05.16 19:02:25 by Culling Song

@Uli Boelie (Comment 27) : Every union has “broken” players. We’ve also made a whole heap of players…take Lewies, for example, who got nowhere upcountry but became a Springbok at the Sharks. It happens…

Comment 79, posted at 23.05.16 20:17:40 by pastorshark

@pastorshark (Comment 79) : Be gone with your logic…this is Sharksworld after all, overrun with the super-critical – ready to pounce at the slightest rumour of wrongdoing.

Comment 80, posted at 23.05.16 20:23:00 by FireTheLooser

@SheldonK (Comment 37) : Cast your mind back to Feb…at that stage he was supposed to be ready to go on tour…I reckon that made it the right decision to say no at that stage! Second point is that since then some key guys have showed far more than any of us expected (in the positions we were eyeing Pottie): at 4 Oosthuizen has been FAAAAR better than any of us expected and at 7, JLdP and Deysel habe both showed top form. All of that info was not available in Feb. I reckon we are second guessing too much again without having/considering all info…
In my mind the suits and management have made very good personnel decisions in the last 12 months or so and so I have confidence in what they are doing…add to that, that Pottie was the one who originally requested this transfer…for me, let him go…

Comment 81, posted at 23.05.16 20:25:37 by pastorshark

@SheldonK (Comment 44) : Is he actually fit?
And am I just missing the hole or is there actually one:
- at 4: EO, Giant (Lewies if needed)
- at 7: JLdP, JD (Dan, Tera, Ginger) if needed…
…where is the hole?

@Big Fish (Comment 84) : I have come to realise that the modicum of information available to me, leaves me wholly uneducated as to what it takes to run and/or the Sharks.

That is why I decided to become a supporter…. I have no insight into what happens behind the scenes.

This why I am a far happier Sharks supporter.

Comment 89, posted at 23.05.16 21:15:14 by FireTheLooser

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 62) : hey, I’m doing great thank you. No I have a terrible confession I had little faith in the beginning, and by the time I decided I had kind of spent my slush fund???? But Next seasons are as good as bought!

I can for the life of me not understand what all this ranting and raving about “jackpot” is all about, did he contribute anything positive, will he have a chance to contribute anything in the near future? Unless it is with signing copies of the Sharks mag, I don’t see any contribution on the field, so let him go, let him stay with mamma, and let him be where he seems to be happy, besides he was only a SR signature on our books in anyhow

Comment 93, posted at 23.05.16 23:34:42 by Henkb

@Big Fish (Comment 63) : Must say I agree. Think I had my say about this issue and no point harping on about it.

@Farlington (Comment 94) : Agreed with both you and Henk. I would rather hear the sharks putting hands up to bid for lood with the money saved on potgieter and Bothma. If such a thing we’re possible.

Comment 96, posted at 24.05.16 07:36:38 by coolfusion

@pastorshark (Comment 82) : EO has played every game…and has been ok but definitely not great. Giant is so far off the pace its scary. And Potgieter is a better player than both of them at 4. At 7 there is Jean Luc- still a raw youngster…the other options are all injured. Potgieter wasnt just this untested youngtser…he is a Bok, a super rugby winner. He is a quality player but because he is gone now people are trying to make out he is crap and everyone is better…sorry im not that gullible. Seems that neither party wanted him in Durban so not sure why he was signed in the first place. Irrespective we now need to get people fit and playing well to filll the roles he would have.

Comment 97, posted at 24.05.16 08:09:19 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 97) : Have to agree, EO does some of the dirty work, jackpot would have been better. Would have, he’s gone, no use in comparing our players with one that is not. I say we leave this silly argument about the almost 31 y/o and move on to discuss our future stars.

Comment 98, posted at 24.05.16 08:28:18 by Quintin

@SheldonK (Comment 97) : Dude, just take a look at how good EO has been in stopping the rolling maul. He has been huge. He has certainly upped his work rate and skills. I really don’t know why people is so hard on him, him and Lewies have become a very good combo. And with that chap Ruan Botha almost fit as well, we are well stocked at 4. And Hyron just need to bulk up a bit more, then he will be good cover for Lewies.

@KingRiaan (Comment 101) : eo has been putting in a lot of hard work.he has also been given a heavy workload,and done admirably.it has also immensely helped his game that the coaches have not moved him between 4 and 7 this season,but just allowed him to play at no4-his best position.the issue now is his workload.lewies can play no4.botha,andrews and uanivi can fill in at no5.the sharks have 5 locks under 25.potgieter though,would have added quality to 2 positions,4 and 7,as a starter or sub.and added fire to the pack.

Comment 101, posted at 24.05.16 08:49:36 by 50shadesofshark

@KingRiaan (Comment 99) : EO has also given away a lot of penalties at ruck time. I never said he was bad. I said he was good but not great. But he probably needs a rest having played so much. Giant is way to slow an ineffective. Ruan Botha has pretty much been injured since he arrived just like Potgieter so im gonna wait till he actually does something before i rate him. Fact is Potgieter would have been very good for our pack whether we want to admit it or not. He is no longer an option so now we need to find one by either getting guys fit and playing or buying someone.

Comment 102, posted at 24.05.16 08:52:08 by SheldonK

Whole page of conspiracy theories and not one mention of the actual reason for Potgieter’s superfluousness,
the rehabilitation of Jean Deysel.
When Potty was signed Deysel was a shadow of his former self unable to play two games without an injury or a card.Alberts was on his way out,Kanko was worse than useless,Daniel banished to the wilderness and the twins still at school.The perfect replacement for Alberts/Deysel was Potty. He would have slotted in seamlessly next to Marcel.
Then the whole game changed Marcel cashed in his cards,the twins and the Ginger started to play a different game,one which Daniel and Mthembu could slot into,and then Big Jean rose like the Phoenix from the ashes to reclaim that Alberts type role.He is a Sharks man thru and thru and genuinely wants to finish his career at the Tank,Potty is the epitome of the modern rugby mercenary,hired gun who has one loyalty his pocket.
Do the math with a reborn Jean Deysel why do you need the hired guenon the books

Comment 103, posted at 24.05.16 08:52:33 by The hound

@Quintin (Comment 100) : age is not the issue.remember what value aj added to the sharks in his 30s ?

The simple fact is that had Pottie stayed he would have added a lot of value and given the Sharks pack a hard edge as he is a quality player. Trying to belittle the guys ability now that he is gone is really silly. But fact is he is now gone so players like Botha, Deysel, Van Der Walt etc need to get themselves fit and firing to give that pack that hard edge. We can talk about playing styles and all the fancy stuff all we like, simple fact is to be successful you need to go forward up front.

Comment 110, posted at 24.05.16 09:08:32 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 105) : He has been played there often,but to answer your question I wouldn’t start Potgieter there ahead of Oosthuizen,Botha or Andrews,
Deysel/Potgieter are great touring squad utility men and its a toss up which of the two you prefer but its a no brainer that you don’t need both.

Comment 111, posted at 24.05.16 09:09:18 by The hound

@The hound (Comment 103) :
Think you’re being a bit hard on Potgieter, but fully agree on the rest. But it seems far more fashionable to fashion a mountain out of a molehill and bitch endlessly about this.

Suddenly Potgieter is a proven talent at 4? Pull the other one – it’s got bells on. Decent yes, but he is primarily a 7, an area we have well covered.

Comment 112, posted at 24.05.16 09:11:26 by Big Fish

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 109) : A Sharks player, he might still be young, but he has payed his dues at the Sharks. I am not a fan of guys that has played at 3 or 4 different teams in 3 years etc. It reminds me too much of the Kevin Putt era. I also think that we have not seen the last of Marcell in a Sharks jersey. I like to believe that he will be back in a couple of years.

Comment 113, posted at 24.05.16 09:11:40 by KingRiaan

@The hound (Comment 113) : even if you don’t start him ,potgieter is a must for the bench because of his 4/7 abilities.re: lock: he can play no4 but obviously it is a stretch to play him at no5.

Comment 114, posted at 24.05.16 09:14:43 by 50shadesofshark

@The hound (Comment 111) : @Big Fish (Comment 112) : Considering that Pottie has played a lot of rugby at lock im curious as to why you think he isnt good there? And not better than Oosthuizen, Botha or Andrews? Bearing in mind he is a lot more experienced that all of them, is a Bok and has won more than all of them combined. So yes those are the guys we have left but Pottie is a better player than them. For the National cause i think he needs to be playing lock with RG Snyman at the Bulls

Comment 115, posted at 24.05.16 09:15:53 by SheldonK

This from the daily telegraph australia :

THE men they call Big Will and Jackpot could hold the key to Waratahs glory against the Crusaders on Saturday night, so great has been their impact this season.

Giant lock Will Skelton has been nothing short of a revelation. At 135kg and 203cm, the 22-year-old does wrecking ball with finesse.

While Jacques Potgieter, the South African enforcer with flowing locks, has earned cult hero status at Moore Park.

Former Wallaby and Waratah lock Dan Vickerman has been impressed with Potgieter’s influence both on and off the field for the Tahs since he arrived at the start of the season.

“He’s been fantastic for the team,” Vickerman said.

“It’s been well documented the physicality that he’s brought and also the impact around the field from a ball carrying and defensive perspective. The one thing he also brings at training and on the field is that level of energy – he’s a good guy to have around the field.
You can see that he certainly lifts his teammates and he’s certainly a good team man.”

The NSW Waratahs have pulled off a coup by signing rugged Springboks forward Jacques Potgieter for the next two Super Rugby seasons.

The 27-year-old Potgieter played his last game for the Pretoria-based Bulls in the recent Super Rugby semi-final loss to the Brumbies and he’ll complete a season in the Japanese Top League before joining the Waratahs to start 2014 Super Rugby competition.

Waratahs coach Michael Cheika said Potgieter filled all the requirements to add more steel to his pack.

“In building our 2014 squad I wanted to profile one of our locks as a no-nonsense, hard and strong ball carrier and tackler, experienced and hungry to add these qualities to our squad,” said Cheika.

“Jacques fits this profile perfectly and his experience in the back row also gives us extra quality in our forward depth.

“We have some excellent locks and back rows in our squad with different profiles and adding a quality recruit like Jacques will definitely make for more competition, which should make us more competitive against our opponents.”

@50shadesofshark (Comment 104) : Read my comment again, I said that he would be better than EO. WOULD have, but we don’t have him, and he was never going to be a Sharks legend because he doesn’t have that much time left to play considering his age.On the other hand, some of our younger guys have a lot of playing time left, lets rather invest in them than a guy with a max of 4 years quality rugby left in him. Better?

Comment 118, posted at 24.05.16 09:38:23 by Quintin

@Quintin (Comment 120) : your final sentence made it about age and time left to make a contribution.,hence my question re:age and contribution on the field.’m not sure we can say how much time a player has left to make a contribution..aj was still contrubuting to the sharks in his 30s.didn’t he play in the sr 2007 as a 34 year old?

Comment 119, posted at 24.05.16 09:42:52 by 50shadesofshark

@50shadesofshark (Comment 119) : Yeah, but you can’t really compare 2 different players on how they will age though. Generally speaking, after 32 most players are not what they used to be maybe with the exception of front rowers. I did mention max 4 years of quality though, which would make him 34

Comment 120, posted at 24.05.16 10:00:23 by Quintin

@Quintin (Comment 120) : Jean Deysel or Jaques Potgieter both playing at the top of their game ??

Comment 121, posted at 24.05.16 10:05:30 by The hound

@Quintin (Comment 118) : Im willing to take a bet that any one of our youngsters showing the same talent as Potgieter had / has will have been bought within those 4 years you think we will be able to hold onto them for.

Time to draw a line.l?after this weekend’s games there will be a clearer picture of what is required by the sharks: winning the next 3 games.

Comment 126, posted at 24.05.16 10:37:21 by 50shadesofshark

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 122) : That might be true that they seek big money else where, or they could be like Lambie/Beast that shows their loyalty to the Sharks by not going anywhere? We wouldn’t know, would we? In the same sentence, I don’t think bad of players going oversees for the money, especially now that we are playing with Monopoly paper in this country.

Comment 127, posted at 24.05.16 10:42:31 by Quintin

@SheldonK (Comment 124) : Not sure about Botha, he has been crocked for so long now he too must be a candidate for the bus departing from KP gate 8.

He’s turned out to be the perfect 4 in my book….something the Sharks haven’t had in a long time.

Comment 129, posted at 24.05.16 10:50:10 by FireTheLooser

@Quintin (Comment 127) : I wonder how much the certainty of being in the Bok squad has kept Beast [email protected]Quintin (Comment 127) : d Lambie at the Sharks.
Marcel’s move was definitely motivated by the way Meyer dropped him for the world cup for a unfit Alberts and over the hill Burger.
Alistair Coetzee is our key to holding the twins,if he ignores them for the likes of Carr,Koilisi,etc they will be on the next plane to France.

Comment 130, posted at 24.05.16 10:51:55 by The hound

@The hound (Comment 125) : Nope still dont think a drug cheat should be playing but everyone seems happy with it so cheat away…they should at least have a course on safe steroid use at the Academy

Comment 131, posted at 24.05.16 10:52:03 by SheldonK

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 128) : Has anybody checked that he hasnt left already? I mean the first game he is semi fit we send him to the township to catch 50pts

Comment 132, posted at 24.05.16 10:52:46 by SheldonK

@FireTheLooser (Comment 129) : Reason i went Botha is he was signed to be the no.1 choice at 4 lock and apparently has a better pedigree. I also dont think Oosthuizen offers much from the bench and could be a liability with his penalty count. He has done well as a stop gap though.

Comment 133, posted at 24.05.16 10:55:09 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 131) : …well seems most sportsman around the world already have a degree in getting away with steroid use, might as well educate them on steroid “safety”.

The current anti-drug campaign in rugby could just as well read “don’t get caught”, as apposed to “keep rugby clean”.

Comment 134, posted at 24.05.16 11:04:27 by FireTheLooser

@SheldonK (Comment 115) :
Potgieter is a good lock, but I certainly do not think he is better than Oosthuizen, who for me has been one of the best players thsi season. He definitely needs to work on his technique going into contact (far too upright and not pumping the legs enough), but aside from being a distant second to Potgieter in that, his work on defence, in the rucks and mauls and setpieces has been fantastic, and this, combined with the years of service he has left to offer, means that I would much rather retain him.

Lets take a different perspective here; where was Potgieter at a similar age to Oosthuizen? Answer – nowhere near the same level. So I would rather back Oosthuizen to keep improving and hopefully stay with a union who backed and developed him, and reap the rewards over the next few seasons. Of course he could be lured abroad tomorrow – but that is a modern reality all SA unions have to live with.

@Big Fish (Comment 139) : the only perspective is that having potgieter in the squad would have strenghtened the sharks.as cheika said:good for depth and good for competition within the squad.either way it translates to bad news for the opposition.

Comment 137, posted at 24.05.16 11:12:44 by 50shadesofshark

@The hound (Comment 130) : Methinks they should then be talking to their travel agents. This whole Stormers team barring PSdT are just so far off the pace its unbelievable.Kobus Wiese and his mates on that Afrikaans rugby show keep on putting Malherbe and Koch and Etzebeth in their Bok squad supposedly selected on merit. As long as these guys continue hearing crap like that why would they lift their game. I remember how our Sharks team gave Malherbe and Koch hell in the scrums, Koch especially and how we dominated their lineout.

Comment 138, posted at 24.05.16 11:13:46 by Salmonoid the Subtle

@The hound (Comment 130) : That is a scary but very sobering thought and I think you might be correct. Lambie was hard done by HM in the beginning though, being behind MS, who lost us 2 games because of his own mistakes and then he pulls up Pollard ahead of him. I’m surprised he is still around after that.

Comment 139, posted at 24.05.16 11:15:12 by Quintin

@Big Fish (Comment 135) : Investing in a young guy is risky business these days as nobody signs and upholds long term deals anymore. Good today gone tomorrow is the reality. The reality is that Oosthuizen has been better this year- but better from being shocking in the previous years so we need to bear that in mind. He still gives away a lot of penalities at the rucks and as you said he ball carrying needs work. Potgieter is a good ball carrier and tackler and developed his game at the Waratahs. He is also a Bok. Saying he shouldnt have been picked because he is older is nonsense. Pick the best available at the moment as anyone can be gone while you wait for them to come good. Fact is we stuck with Oosthuizen who has had a couple good games after a few shocking seasons. But trying to make out that he is better than Pottie, yeh sorry thats absurd.

Comment 140, posted at 24.05.16 11:16:00 by SheldonK

@Quintin (Comment 139) : Lambie was always kept in the squad,probably done more bench time than Lawrence Sephaka and Shimangge put together
Marcel was not dropped for Koilisi,Meyer picked Koilisi for window dressing without the slightest intention of playing him.
He picked Burger and Alberts ahead of Marcel.

Comment 141, posted at 24.05.16 11:23:33 by The hound

@SheldonK (Comment 140) :
Absurd is a blind contention that Oosthuizen has been average this season and that Potgieter’s selection as a Bok flank makes him a great lock. Absurd is also somehow concluding that I said Potgieter should not have been “picked” – read again and you will note that the debate is rather about whether we need to maintain his contract. If he was, by all means pick him.

@Big Fish (Comment 142) : We seem to be on very different pages. A lot of people are saying good riddence to Pottie as we didnt need him because we have Oosthuizen etc. And i was saying that rubbish as Pottie is a better player than him even at lock where he has played a lot of rugby. I was also saying that seeing as though we had kept him for all but 3 months why not just keep him and use him till the end of the season. But fact is he is a quality player that is now gone and we are left with Oosthuizen and Botha-who is meant to be the shining light for us at lock.

Comment 143, posted at 24.05.16 11:58:11 by SheldonK

@Big Fish: ,the sharks have 3 games left and are still in play-off contention.squad depth still matters.

Comment 144, posted at 24.05.16 12:02:14 by 50shadesofshark

@SheldonK (Comment 140) : @50shadesofshark (Comment 137) : I cant believe this overrated guy is being hyped up like this…He is,imho,a walking yellow card that really isn’t all that good,he doesn’t even tackle…he frog splashes,go watch the tapes,how many times did he frogsplash onto someone already on the ground,lucky to be on the field after that,his hair makes it seem he is everywhere,he is not!In my opinion I am extremely happy that he has left the Tank,would much rather back Ettas,he has improved immensely and one of the shining lights this year in the engine room,doing a lot of grafting week in and week out.There are better players that are established Sharks,why would you want to force a journeyman upon everyone?

Comment 145, posted at 24.05.16 12:04:18 by BarendL

@BarendL (Comment 145) : Rather have Ettas? And he has done what exactly? Played a couple of half decent games after a few season of shocking performances. Oosthuizen hasnt carried the ball for good metres, hasnt driven back players in the tackle, has hardly taken lineout ball, has given away numerous penalties. Sorry for me thats being adequate in a position where we were short, he certainly hasnt been great. Maybe greatly improved from where he was, but not great. Funny how people werent having a go at Pottie when he was signed and on our books only now when he leaves…

Comment 146, posted at 24.05.16 12:10:27 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 143) : If he is nearing full fitness and considering where we are placed on the log with there being a very real chance that we will get into the playoffs with travelling included then there would be few better suited to have in the squad that can cover more than one position, that knows what playoff rugby entails and that know what winning those games is all about.

Comment 147, posted at 24.05.16 12:12:07 by Salmonoid the Subtle

@SheldonK (Comment 146) : I would rather have someone that is still improving that someone who didn’t make it to the field in 6 months time.I have disliked JP since his Kings days,since he was gifted a Bok cap for doing not much,but like I said,those are my opinions on the matter,and we are allowed to disagree,but to me it is a no brainer…rather have the ever improving players for the next 8 years than the injured player for the next 2.

Comment 148, posted at 24.05.16 12:14:37 by BarendL

@SheldonK (Comment 151) : “Funny how people werent having a go at Pottie when he was signed and on our books only now when he leaves… ” .yes.

Comment 149, posted at 24.05.16 12:15:02 by 50shadesofshark

@SheldonK (Comment 146) : I find it amusing, given the stand you’ve taken against Chiliboy, that you’re such an ardent supporter of Pottie.

Did the same thing, just didn’t get caught.

Comment 150, posted at 24.05.16 12:16:25 by robdylan

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 147) : Well that horse is bolted. And apparently he is a terrible player according to most people…he would have made out team a lot worse.

@robdylan (Comment 150) : Got proof that Pottie did? What i annoyed with is people saying a guy is a shite player only because he left. Yes he left, but he is still a good player that would have made a good difference to the team.

Comment 153, posted at 24.05.16 12:19:35 by SheldonK

@robdylan (Comment 150) : @BarendL (Comment 152) : And do you both condone steroid use then?

Comment 154, posted at 24.05.16 12:20:31 by SheldonK

@robdylan (Comment 150) : Havent heard that he dopes, who else in the Sharks squad are juicing, there must be a few?

Comment 155, posted at 24.05.16 12:21:19 by Salmonoid the Subtle

@SheldonK (Comment 154) : Dont condone it at all,but when you get banned,do your time,come back with a hunger to play I consider it time served,dues payed,dont you?

Comment 156, posted at 24.05.16 12:23:45 by BarendL

@SheldonK (Comment 153) : People here are more pissed off because Potgieter didnt keep his mouth shut and suck up the abuse he was getting from fans but apportioned some of the blame to the Sharks themselves.

There will still be a few more of these incidents in the future.

Comment 157, posted at 24.05.16 12:24:18 by Salmonoid the Subtle

Geez, let the steroids thing go. Chilliboy got caught and paid the time – and rightly so. But how many here call for Ackermann to be Bok coach and yet he was also caught. If you want to hold this against Chilliboy, what example does it set if the Bok coach is an “ex-doper”? Is he not going to lead our impressionable youth astray?

Then again, it does seem that some people really struggle with consistency here.

Comment 158, posted at 24.05.16 12:26:34 by Big Fish

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 157) :
You ever gonna let go of the that axe youve been grinding with the Sharks admin since the Plumtree incident? Surely its worn to mere splinters by now?

Comment 159, posted at 24.05.16 12:27:47 by Big Fish

@BarendL (Comment 156) : @Big Fish (Comment 159) : So the message to kids is no problem if you take steroids as long as you say sorry, take some time off and come back when you 21 and we will give you a contract. Im very surprised…or maybe i shouldnt be.

Comment 160, posted at 24.05.16 12:29:41 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 161) : Not exactly what I was saying,but I should have known not giving you that loophole though?

Comment 161, posted at 24.05.16 12:34:23 by BarendL

@BarendL (Comment 162) : The problem is that is the loophole young players see. There are hundreds of good players all on a par and all striving to get that extra edge somehow to be noticed. They get told play clean and fair. Then they lose a spot to a guy who has taken steroids, but he said sorry, so its ok. Now justify to that kid that got overlooked why he shouldnt take…

Comment 162, posted at 24.05.16 12:36:27 by SheldonK

@Big Fish (Comment 160) : With difficulty,I wish I could, but the more I hear the more it grates.

Comment 163, posted at 24.05.16 12:40:41 by Salmonoid the Subtle

@SheldonK (Comment 168) : if the player using gets caught and the penalty is 2 years,and he serves the ban,then he is fine to return after the ban.I think you might be calling for a life ban for steriod use?

Comment 164, posted at 24.05.16 12:41:58 by 50shadesofshark

@50shadesofshark (Comment 164) : The penalty for the crime should deter the crime. Does 2yrs deter the use…i would say no. 5-6yrs well maybe

Comment 165, posted at 24.05.16 12:43:12 by SheldonK

@Big Fish (Comment 158) : Whenever I see Ackers on box I subconsciously know that he was nailed for doping. On Saturday when they were going through the team list Capastagnio (sp) mentioned something about Chlli getting his first start since serving his drugs ban. These are tags they will wear forever. For me I wish they hadnt juiced, but they did, got caught and served their time – its over now but the stigma will always be there as will the suspicion that they could do it again. I just wish they would catch all the guys that juice.

Comment 166, posted at 24.05.16 12:47:17 by Salmonoid the Subtle

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 163) : Maybe you should become a streamers supporter, at least their administration is above reproach.

Comment 167, posted at 24.05.16 12:48:14 by FireTheLooser

@SheldonK (Comment 162) : Fair comment,it is unfortunately something that will probably always happen,although we can all hope that 2 years will deter more players than not.

Comment 168, posted at 24.05.16 12:51:39 by BarendL

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 166) : I remember both Goosen and Basson landing in hot water for banned substance use….Goosen got a 6 month ban, had some excuse about it being from nasal spray.

They’re all juicing to some extent.

Comment 169, posted at 24.05.16 12:52:01 by FireTheLooser

@BarendL (Comment 168) : Thats only 2yrs if you get caught. So not that big a deterent even in the small chance you get caught. Its a very tough battle to win with young players already and when they see the great rewards and possible measly repercussions…well good luck winning over their minds. And people think a few players use…trust me people have no idea how wide spread performance enhancers are in rugby…

Comment 170, posted at 24.05.16 12:55:35 by SheldonK

@FireTheLooser (Comment 169) : Sadly I’ve spoken to a fella according to him doing recruitment for one of the big Unions/franchises and the stories he told me of the roid abuse was quite frightening together with some before and after photos,the difference astounding after only a couple of months

Comment 171, posted at 24.05.16 12:56:52 by BarendL

@BarendL (Comment 171) : Remember only a small percentage of your top professionals get tested. I would say 80-90% of the players that fall below that category have used some form of illegal performance enhancer during their playing career

Comment 172, posted at 24.05.16 12:59:17 by SheldonK

@FireTheLooser (Comment 167) : Thelo would ban me within a month. Mind you they did manage to lure PSdT away from us.

@vanmartin (Comment 184) : I had to steer it into a direction that everyone could agree on, inclusive of those that Pottie besmirched in a game last year.

Comment 186, posted at 24.05.16 16:10:42 by Salmonoid the Subtle

@SheldonK (Comment 160) :
So you agree that Ackermann should be banned from coaching?

Comment 187, posted at 24.05.16 18:03:51 by Big Fish

I have never wanted a thread to be closed as much as this one. The ship has sailed there is bad blood and no amount of arguing will change that. Half of you believe Potgieter is the shit and would have revolutionized our game other half disagree. None of you will ever know the truth so what is the argument about…what might have been? Can we all move on and you can all just believe what you want to, cause this dead horse cannot be beaten anymore.

Comment 188, posted at 24.05.16 18:45:50 by coolfusion

@coolfusion (Comment 194) : there are 3 games left.sharks are still in play-off contention.injuries can happen.potgieter covers both 4 and 7 and is quality player.if not starting,can add balance to the bench.sharks have paid his fees and rehab up till now.gold’s comments make it clear the player wanted to play and contribute.the player’s own response to accusations of just using the sharks suggests the same.

Comment 189, posted at 24.05.16 19:34:55 by 50shadesofshark

@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 109) : Coetzee… loyal Shark who got screwed over by HM. And now sees the writing on the wall with AC most likely giving his spot to Kolisi/Carr/Notshe.
I hope to see him in Durban again in a few years

Comment 190, posted at 24.05.16 20:08:16 by the-other-sharky

Dare i say probably the biggest reason for pottiegate is simply that he has been played been played out of the team. All our loosies this year are in great form from the ginger to the twins and finally to keegan and dysel. In addition there is some talent lurking in the junior ranks.

Does anyone know what the injury status is on that no 4 lock who got injured in france?

Comment 191, posted at 24.05.16 20:09:21 by byron

@byron (Comment 197) : no5 lock ruan botha.played off the bench this past weekend for the sharks in the cc qualifying round

Comment 192, posted at 24.05.16 20:31:18 by 50shadesofshark

@50shadesofshark (Comment 189) : Bud. Your argument has no future. What’s done is done the guy is pisswed off. His personal relationships have taken strain. This bridge is in flames. He has signed with bulls. Even if we hold him to a contract how much effort will he put in? I would rather have a committed less experienced man than a grudging man who will now not give anything for this union..no matter how talented ( debateable). It’s over and the arguing about what might have been is futile. The time for saving this situation is probably 2 months in the past.

Comment 193, posted at 25.05.16 07:56:54 by coolfusion

@byron (Comment 191) : What’s the relevance of the nr 4 lock on France? Are we looking at a purchase?

Comment 194, posted at 25.05.16 07:58:12 by coolfusion

@50shadesofshark (Comment 189) : Then only thing about this that has any value is the apparent difference in intentions and planning between management and coaching. If Gold still had plans and intentions and had the carpet pulled from under him by John and Co. It suggests a problem as the coaching should be making these decisions not the business. Business makes the decisions at budget time but once they committed it’s up to Gary to spend and manage without meddling. That there may be worth debating ( if it has merit) because it can be potentially damaging.

Comment 195, posted at 25.05.16 08:12:14 by coolfusion

@Big Fish (Comment 187) : Thats a trickier one. I believe the punishment should deter the crime so only a 2yr ban doesnt really deter players from using in order to gain the advantage whilst playing. Had the ban been 5-10yrs well then thats a deterrent. Ackermann no longer plays and his coaching is in a way giving back. Yes he cheated the game and his ban then should probably have been longer. Put it this way if any guy he coaches uses steroids etc then he doesnt have any leg to stand to to complain. So its a tricky one. I think if a guy is caught using then he should be banned from playing.

Comment 196, posted at 25.05.16 08:25:13 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 196) : 5 – 10 years is not a deterrent it’s a death sentence. The purpose of punishment should be rehabilitation not summary execution.

Comment 197, posted at 25.05.16 08:30:34 by coolfusion

@coolfusion (Comment 197) : We can disagree on that one. Fact is 2yrs does not deter players from using as in the small chance they get caught their career can just continue after a short break. Bearing in mind an AC L injury is a year out, so whats 2yrs for cheating the sport.

Comment 198, posted at 25.05.16 09:08:56 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 198) : 2 years is a very long time in a rugby players career. Thats almost a quarter of the average first class career. 2 years of no pay, no sponsorships, nothing! During a ACL injury you get paid and rehab.

Comment 199, posted at 25.05.16 10:05:26 by Southern_Shark

@Southern_Shark (Comment 199) : 2yrs is definitely not long. And yes 2yrs of no pay/sponsorships from playing rugby…doesnt prevent him from doing anything else. Remember he did cheat the game and break the law. Im actually quite shocked by the attitudes towards doping from a lot of people. I guess because he is a Shark now its condoned and not that serious, almost just like a yellow card in game.

Comment 200, posted at 25.05.16 10:19:23 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 200) : Yes because rugby players are qualified to do everything. Getting a job is easy, jobs are everywhere. “I see on your CV you were a professional rugby player, why did you quit?” ” Oh, you only want a job for 2 years…”

Comment 201, posted at 25.05.16 10:38:50 by Southern_Shark

@Southern_Shark (Comment 205) : using steriods is cheating.let’s not make the offender the victim here.

Comment 202, posted at 25.05.16 10:45:46 by 50shadesofshark

@Southern_Shark (Comment 207) :sorry, but that argument in the context of the discussion is non-sensical.

Comment 203, posted at 25.05.16 10:47:28 by 50shadesofshark

@SheldonK (Comment 196) :
@SheldonK (Comment 200) :
I apologise for being so blunt, but the only shocking things here are your naivety and inconsistency.

If you want to ban a rugby player for 5-10 years you might as well ban him for life, given the typical career length. Is 2 years or a life ban better? I will leave that to those involved in the game to decide; but I think 2 years was arrived at because of the short careers of rugby professionals.

Had to laugh on your comment on Ackermann. Giving back to the game? You think he’s working for the twinkle in the fans’ eyes? It’s a career choice mate.

And bear in mind that a rugby player basically influences his own career only, with a slight exception for the captain. The coach influences his entire union. What could he be encouraging behind closed doors? What example does he set for ambitious youngsters? How does he speak with authority against doping? He is a far bigger risk than a team mate.

Note I am not saying that I believe that Ackermann should be punished for an indiscretion for which he has paid his dues – I’m just following your fallacious logic to its absurd conclusion.

Comment 204, posted at 25.05.16 10:47:29 by Big Fish

@SheldonK (Comment 206) : you know the argument I made re: the yellow card was in rugby every indiscretion has its penalty.so and so an offence is a yellow card.means 10min off the field.doping is 2 year’s off the field.I did not say doping is like a yellow card.actually,it is more like a 2 year red card.you wanted to make it about lenght of the ban,where I was only saying the player has served his ban period under the current laws re: the offence.

Comment 205, posted at 25.05.16 10:53:28 by 50shadesofshark

@Big Fish (Comment 204) : I really hope that one day you have to explain to your son how he shouldnt take steroids but its ok that the guy thats ahead of him is or was doping. 5-10yrs would deter the act, 2yrs definitely does not. As i said Ackermann is a tough one as he is not playing, but his ban should also have been 5-10 years. 2yrs ago both Chilliboy and Cooper were playing, Chilli got banned and has come back and they are still competing- difference being only 1 of them played by the rules. In business if you commit fraud (which this effectively is) you are never allowed to act as a director of a company, thats never…not after 2yrs and saying sorry.

Comment 206, posted at 25.05.16 10:54:28 by SheldonK

@Southern_Shark (Comment 201) : “I see on your CV you were a professional rugby player, why did you quit?” He never quit- he was banned- BIG difference.

Comment 207, posted at 25.05.16 10:56:41 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 206) :
I’m going to end this here – you are clearly emotionally invested in this and cannot be objective.

A lot of things come down to core values, but I will not explain to my kids why they should or shouldn’t do something illegal based on advantage or what other people are doing. It simply comes down to right versus wrong and legal versus illegal. Food for thought perhaps.

Note however that you are conflating a debate about length or severity of a punishment with approval/ disapproval of a sanctioned action (everyone agrees doping is wrong). Not the first time I’ve noted this.

Comment 208, posted at 25.05.16 11:19:40 by Big Fish

@Big Fish (Comment 208) : Yes i am emotionally invested as i cannot believe how many people dont see this is a big issue. He was caught twice cheating and doping, but he said he is sorry and had to stop for a little while but now its ok and all forgiven lets carry on like nothing happened. I suppose thats the culture we have in SA now. So yes for me it will always be a big issue, but for many others it seems it is not. So lets just play on

Comment 209, posted at 25.05.16 11:31:50 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 209) : What do you mean nothing happened he was banned for two years without pay.
That is the law and he paid the price,your problem is with the player not the offence.
By the laws of International Rugby,the man is cleared to play again.
I have stipulated before that the coach and especially the conditioning coach should be held responsible for a player being caught using steroids,
any conditioning coach who can’t detect steroid advanced performance in one of his players is not worth his job.
If the conditioning coach was made responsible, and his career was on the line he would be the first person able to stop the abuse

Comment 210, posted at 25.05.16 13:10:43 by The hound

@The hound (Comment 210) : I tend to agree. The sentence was served. Maybe your objection has merit but the term is unrealistic 2-3 years is more deterring than Sheldon realizes. With the amount of young talent gaining experience and your peers cementing their careers and earning caps you will never be able to make up. It’s plenty.

Comment 211, posted at 25.05.16 13:17:44 by coolfusion

@coolfusion (Comment 211) : Meant to say Sheldon objection has merit. But only in principle.

Comment 212, posted at 25.05.16 13:19:09 by coolfusion

@The hound (Comment 210) :
Unfortunately, one thing anyone who has dabbled in law learns is that most people are completely oblivious to their own blind spots.

This is s rugby site, not a jurisprudence discussion board, so until now I have refrained from pointing out the patently obvious hypocrisy of castigating people for breaking laws and then failing to accept/abide by the fact that the same laws dictate the severity of the punishment and subsequent rights of the punished party.

The legality cuts both ways – one cannot choose to simply focus on the part that you agree with – what principled stand can you hope to make in such a circumstance? Sadly a common failing despite attempts to educate people.

Comment 213, posted at 25.05.16 13:24:47 by Big Fish

@The hound (Comment 210) : I fully disagree- my issue is with the offense. Who the player is makes no difference. In terms of the current law he has served his time yes, not arguing he didnt. Im arguing whether it is adequate and whether the punishment is a deterrent. If you punch a guy on the field and the sanction was only a free kick would it deter the action by someone else? Doubt it. And thats my issue.

Comment 214, posted at 25.05.16 13:45:33 by SheldonK

@Big Fish (Comment 213) : Sorry i fully disagree. I can most definitely agree that it is an offense to take steroids, thats the law and i agree with that. However, i can most definitely disagree with the punishment thereof. It is two separate matters.

Comment 215, posted at 25.05.16 13:48:45 by SheldonK

@Big Fish (Comment 213) : Look I get it that you are a lawyer,and as such I defer to your legalise,but a further ryder to the equation is that this is a professional sport and any cheating goes into another realm.Cheats rob teams of money,difference between making playoffs,hosting a final, winning the tournament runs into millions.
But the law is the law and the sentence is the sentence.
Its a law and sentence that has everything to do with money and absolutely fuckall to do with morals.

Comment 216, posted at 25.05.16 14:05:50 by The hound

@The hound (Comment 216) :
You dont have to be a lawyer to appreciate any of that – just a person with some life experience. You seriously believe any of those issues are not equally weighty in non-sporting matters?

Forget the legalese – the simple fact is the guy served his time without favour (this is not a Jackie Selebi sentence). By all means, dispute whether the sentence is correct – but don’t besmirch him in doing so; the law-makers should then very the target of one’s contempt.

@SheldonK (Comment 215) :
If that’s your gripe, then you should target your ire to the guys who set the punishment, not the poor sod who fully served his sentence, but so happens not to have satisfied your personal opinion on a “just” sentence.

Comment 217, posted at 25.05.16 15:02:26 by Big Fish

On a different issue, the Stormers media (including News24) must be in such a tizz. Normally they feast off every word Nick Mallet fires off, but now he’s selected a Bok team with 5 Sharks including the entire back 3 – and completely sans Kolbe.

Existential crisis of note…

Comment 218, posted at 25.05.16 15:12:32 by Big Fish

@Big Fish (Comment 217) : I have merely used him as the example not a had a go at him. I even picked him in the preferred Sharks pack in one comment thread. He is also not innocent so my use of him as an example is fully justified. And it has been my stance all along that the punishment for the act is incorrect…not that i disagree that he hasnt served the punishment allocated to him. My stance is a simple one…merely 2yrs is not enough punishment for that offense. To put it into perspective a player in France recently received 18months for just verbally abusing a ref.

Comment 219, posted at 25.05.16 15:15:42 by SheldonK

@Big Fish (Comment 218) : Mallet’s side is a good one…but i can see a lot of people not happy with it

Comment 220, posted at 25.05.16 15:17:18 by SheldonK

@Big Fish (Comment 218) : And from the man who used to coach them no less….

Comment 221, posted at 25.05.16 15:51:29 by coolfusion

@coolfusion (Comment 221) : Sorry not coached but touted as their next coach…

Comment 222, posted at 25.05.16 15:53:44 by coolfusion

@SheldonK (Comment 220) : When has everyone ever been happy with someone else’s bok selection. Some of the people some of the time dude…

Comment 223, posted at 25.05.16 15:54:46 by coolfusion

@coolfusion (Comment 223) : Very true point…just interesting that a lot of people would have liked Mallett to be the coach and well thats who he would have gone with…

Comment 224, posted at 25.05.16 15:57:05 by SheldonK

@Big Fish (Comment 218) : On that note – Asfak has let up in his campaign to select Kolbe (due to him having a lack of confidence) and is now pushing for Aplon..

Comment 225, posted at 25.05.16 16:02:47 by Bokhoring

@SheldonK (Comment 224) : Well it would be interesting to see what Coetzee ‘ s take is. Can he shake the bias or skew in judgement other coaches may have had having known their home team guys better than the guys from other unions? Not that I am saying he should pick sharks but how much safer does a coach feel selecting the guys he worked with day in and out for years vs guys he only knows at face value.

Comment 226, posted at 25.05.16 16:05:45 by coolfusion

@SheldonK (Comment 226) : like the centre combo.would like to see how serfontein and lambie combine at 10/12.

Comment 227, posted at 25.05.16 16:09:44 by 50shadesofshark

@50shadesofshark (Comment 227) : Serf has been a bit flat of late is he really still the nr 1 contender? I’m not sure he is.

Comment 228, posted at 25.05.16 16:12:00 by coolfusion

@coolfusion (Comment 226) : Indeed…and its only natural that a coach when faced between picking two players will go with the guy he is more familiar with. Every coach has his favourites no matter who he is. No coach is truly objective. Its whether those favourites can produce the goods will determine how successful a coach is.

@50shadesofshark (Comment 227) : @coolfusion (Comment 228) : I am a fan of Serfontein as i think he is quality, but agree he isnt in the best form. I think a guy like Francois Venter deserves a look in, but playing in a weak team may discount him

Comment 231, posted at 25.05.16 16:16:30 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 229) : Well with that argument would it not be better to have picked a more objective man. One who has not been doing active duty in a union for at least 1 year or two?

Comment 232, posted at 25.05.16 16:16:50 by coolfusion

@SheldonK (Comment 237) : yes,remember our earlier discussion re: venter.wanted to add to my comment that I hope venter gets a look-in ,too.sure I read somewhere that ac had a talk with him?

Comment 233, posted at 25.05.16 16:19:37 by 50shadesofshark

@coolfusion (Comment 232) : Ya its a tough call, as i dont think anyone is truly objective…and in the case of rugby selections objectivity cannot be clearly defined. I think where the selection can be more transparent and ‘objective’ is through the use of a selection panel. The counter to that is that the coach then has to pick and play guys he doesnt necessarily trust or want. So yeh very tricky task.

Comment 234, posted at 25.05.16 16:20:24 by SheldonK

@50shadesofshark (Comment 233) : I think the Cheetahs poor form will cost Venter a spot and Lood a starting spot

@SheldonK (Comment 235) : if Lionel Mapoe doesn’t get a starting place it will be a huge travesty of justice,he has been the best centre in South Africa this year,

Comment 238, posted at 25.05.16 16:35:09 by The hound

@coolfusion (Comment 237) : Nah just kidding. The “blond betrayer” would probably deserve a call. He has been *ouch*… good of late…

Comment 239, posted at 25.05.16 16:35:37 by coolfusion

@Big Fish (Comment 218) : Interestingly, during that same thought experiment Gcobani Bobo also selected a team but he was not allowed to select overseas based players. Had Garth April as backup to Lambie

Comment 240, posted at 25.05.16 16:39:19 by Die Kriek

@Die Kriek (Comment 240) : Well with both Pollard and Jantjies out of the picture for now I can’t see very many options for second chair. I wonder if Goosen will be considered again?

Comment 241, posted at 25.05.16 16:44:53 by coolfusion

@coolfusion (Comment 241) : Ops The foreign player clause…forgot. but in reality? Would he be?

@Die Kriek (Comment 244) : Ja I just read the article he did make mallets squad. I disagree with Kollisi. There are many that are better. And on other loosies, Keegan Daniel probably never going to get the recognition he deserves?

Comment 245, posted at 25.05.16 16:58:36 by coolfusion

@coolfusion (Comment 242) : Since Goosen is already a capped Bok, I believe he is still eligible even though playing overseas. Same as Morne Steyn whom we may still see as Lambie’s backup for the upcoming tests.

Comment 246, posted at 25.05.16 17:08:50 by Dancing Bear

Aaah, but Goosen was caught doping… the plot thickens.

Comment 247, posted at 25.05.16 17:44:13 by Big Fish

@Big Fish (Comment 247) : I stopped with the Potgieter thing after only one post, now time for you to act similarly with regard to doping!

Comment 248, posted at 25.05.16 17:56:07 by Dancing Bear

But I do have to say something about doping…..Anyone who thinks that it is a 2 year ban, done and dusted and all is back to normal is completely missing it. If you think Chilli is earning anywhere near his potential prior to his being caught, then you are very naive. I assure you the Sharks signed him for far less now, as it is a risk to them to bring such a player on board (as is evidenced by the intense debate on this site), as it is a risk for other teams who might be competing for his signature. Remember he was touted as the heir apparent to Smit both as Bok Hooker and Captain at one point, do you hear anyone now calling for his inclusion in the Bok side? Whether he is able to redeem himself after years of effort like Ackerman did (and got capped at the very end of his career) is yet to be seen. So no, this is no easy 2 years and done penalty, this is most likely a significant diminishing of a potentially very bright rugby career.

If you believe that 80-90% of players have doped and you also believe that doping is morally wrong, then why do you follow professional rugby at all? You are enabling this beast you preach against. Perhaps that is your blind spot.

I don’t have any moral problems with doping. It’s simply against the rules. Sports rules are mostly arbitrary anyway, the intention being for the most part to create a viable and attractive contest.
For your kids.Simply tell them that it’s stupid. Like smoking, drugs etc. If it’s impossible to play top level rugby without doping, then top level rugby is just not a good career choice.

Comment 255, posted at 26.05.16 02:27:27 by fyndraai

@fyndraai (Comment 255) : I am definitely not enabling it…enabling it would be handing out the drugs. The point im trying to make is that there should be stricter punishment for those caught so that other players are not tempted to do it. Obeying the rules is morally correct, you cannot separate the two im afraid.

Comment 256, posted at 26.05.16 07:51:39 by SheldonK

@The hound (Comment 238) : 100% agree, there isnt another 13 that is close to him currently. But who do you play at 12? And who do you use as cover off the bench? Those are the trickier questions i think.

Comment 257, posted at 26.05.16 07:53:07 by SheldonK

@Dancing Bear (Comment 249) : You comment makes out like the guy is innocent and harshly done by. That is so far from the truth. He was caught twice. So boo hoo if his career is tarnished. Actions have consequences…the more severe will only deter the action in the future.

@coolfusion (Comment 242) : I see an interesting development regarding picking foreign players- Australia said only guys with 50+ caps that play overseas can be picked…so they picked Horwill…but then they also picked Nayavaro and he definitely doesnt have 50+ caps…

Comment 260, posted at 26.05.16 08:26:31 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 257) : Imagine for one minute that we had coach in place like Michael Cheika who was his own man and picked the best team from all the players available to him,no political,provincial or personal agendas.Then how about Frans Steyn at 12 ,Mapoe at 13,

Comment 261, posted at 26.05.16 08:52:14 by The hound

@The hound (Comment 261) : If the Cheika scenario was here a lot of people would complain he had Waratahs bias. I think a 5 man selection panel with 2 ‘independent guy’ alongside the 3 coaching staff is possibly the best workable idea. Frans and Mapoe would be a very good combo. Just depends whats the story with the whole overseas players issue…

Comment 262, posted at 26.05.16 08:57:36 by SheldonK

@SheldonK (Comment 262) : i also see a few people touting Lambie as a possible Bok captain for this series…

@The hound (Comment 264) : But he is so cute and fluffy hehe. ALso interesting that Jake White also started his tenure with a series against Ireland. His success in that series set him on a good path but not all the players he used in that series made it to the 2007 RWC….could we see a repeat…

Comment 265, posted at 26.05.16 09:18:47 by SheldonK

@Dancing Bear (Comment 249) : Too true, but if his “status” before being caught and banned was only made possible because of the use of the banned goods then he should actually be very glad for that earlier exposure which gave him the oomph to play above his natural abilities, thus being, noticed, etc.

Comment 266, posted at 26.05.16 09:47:55 by Salmonoid the Subtle

@SheldonK (Comment 265) : Big difference is that Jake is so hard arsed and bloody minded that he could handle all the crap in its various forms that came his way. I dont think AC is anywhere near that and if anything I think he will have to jump through the hoops that Jake just swept out of his way. At least AC wont have the Afrikaans press at his throat like Jake had, jeepers that sports editor of Rapport coudnt handle him.

@SheldonK (Comment 268) : I remember watching the Super Rugby show on Kyknet a few years back while Jake was coach, and the sports editor of Rapport phoned in, he was clearly pissed and he went on a rant about all the sins of Jake White and how he was to be fired. I think it was Kobus Wiese who quickly put the guy in his place. That guy hated White.