See my post above this one. Eventually, most of your family members (casual users) will not even have a Mac with Lion to worry about. Macs will continue to be bought by, and designed for the "pro" users, like you & me, and many other tech-involved industries. It's also why Windows won't just up and disappear.

However it is the "home and casual user" that will more than likely not own a PC at all. These devices will be all they need for "free time" computing.

Hint: take a look at how you're using your Mac today, and give some of the 3rd party devs/utilities a chance at how you could "possibly" work faster and better. You will be a "Post-PC-Desktop-Island-Tech-Support" in short time, so no need to show your family or friends anything on the desktop in the future. Just make it work for them on their i-Devices, as fast and easy as possible.. and quit worrying about the "pro GUI" of Lion. Grandma won't need it... the kids won't want it... and you'll get used to it

Admittedly, Lion is a transition toward a desktop-not-required future. We're still living in the present, however, and those of us who are the family and friend "tech support" are facing easy of use issues with this release. The iPad is something I'll be working to get everyone transitioned to, but it's going to take time, and I have yet to find that tree that grows money.

The iPad has limitations regarding data storage, and still must be synced with a Mac in order to be updated. I stopped by my Mom's iMac this morning and decided to drop real world numbers into this Lion discussion. If we're going to be talking about transitioning these users to the iOS, then we're going to have to deal with their real world usage (top level only):

And that's just from a grandma who belongs to a garden club (and composes monthly newsletters in Pages) and has a couple grand kids (she's the typical "snap-happy" grandma who loves her digital camera, and fills it routinely). All respect to Apple for the iOS, but it's not at a level to handle her usage right now in a solo capacity. I'm going to be replacing her iMac in the next few years with a new 24" model because she needs that big screen.

When it comes to Lion, I'm sure that you and I can handle anything they throw at us. My concerns are for those people who use technology for interaction with family and friends any don't know the first thing about keyboard short cuts, their fingers don't work as well as ours for gestures, and their eyesight leaves a lot to be desired. With the color and design changes to Lion, I'm very concerned that Snow Leopard will be the end of the road for those users. If iOS devices are going to be the space they dwell in, then these devices are going to have to meet their needs and I don't see that happening with real world capacity restraints. Lion may be making some people's lives easier, but it's also going to make a lot of people's lives harder and I don't think Apple is appropriately addressing this demographic from all that I've seen in their screen shots.

Aqua was pretty nice looking in its day (around 2001), and it still looks very modern. I think Steve Jobs said the UI was so good looking, you'll want to lick the screen.

This doesn't all look like an improvement.

I especially like the way that the rounded buttons currently make them very easy to spot. With the the more `technical' view they become less easy to spot.

The same with auto-appearing and disappearing of elements (what I suspect from seeing something where you do not see a scroll bar unless you are on top of it). This brings extra screen real estate when you are not scrolling, but at the price of losing a bit of information: by seeing a scroll bar when you're not using it, you can actually see how much more there is to scroll to even if you don't see what there is to scroll to.

It won't be a lot worse, as the interface is pretty slick anyway. But it becomes definitely less 'lickable'. Especially the buttons, which now look like sweets.

Wow, that's interesting. I use Windows 7 a lot (I have it on Boot Camp), and I print from both OS X and Windows, since one of my printers doesn't work with OS X. You'd think I'd have noticed that by now.

Oh crap!!! Sorry!!!!!

That's just a mock up!

As in... what the same dialog would look like with Windows UI components!!!! I meant to mention it in my original post but I forgot.

The point is changes in the OSX UI components more so than the actual print dialog itself.

You say I may be pleasantly surprised, by what might I ask? I've seen the same screen captures you have. What is it that I may find so pleasing? You're talking to someone that was elated when 10.0 came out and I got to experience aqua after 9.2. My first 600 MHz iBook (my first laptop ever) ran both OS's and I used them both. I loved the look of OS X. I loved seeing my friends who were Windows lovers (and some still are today) looking at how fantastic it looked on that rather low resolution screen.

Just move forward to Lion and I'm sitting here with an 8-core Mac Pro and a 30" Cinema Display with more than a HD resolution, and I'm watching the OS bleach out until it's nothing more than a bunch of gray buttons and disappearing sliders. And you suggest that I might be pleasantly surprised? What exactly would you have me be pleasantly surprised by? I'd really like to know. What is it that you find so awe inspiring with an OS that has all the appearance of the gravel in my driveway? I know there are people who are easily distracted, and I'm sorry for them, but I'm not one of those people who gets distracted. I see the OS I've supported from the very beginning becoming something that's not even interesting to look at. When an OS is no longer interesting to interact with, what is there really? What's the point? Gestures? Is that all I have to look forward to? I can't even manage to teach my parents how to use the gestures included in Snow Leopard. What's the point of even trying to get them to use the gestures with Lion?

Let's be blunt here and accept the fact that there are two kinds of users in the Mac Community. There are those people who want nothing. They want bare bones. These people exist in Terminal, and they think that even iTunes has far too much color for their world. They get distracted by everything around them, and they don't want anything between them and what they are doing. Then, at the opposite side of the spectrum, you have people like me. I don't use the Terminal, I enjoyed Aqua, I enjoyed the Dock not being that reflective thing, and I enjoyed the OS being so fantastically different visually from everything else out there that people were literally drawn to look at my screen and ask about all the things they were seeing.

I've converted over 40 colleagues alone to the Mac OS. Every single person in my immediate family has switched over to the Mac because of my insistence. I'm the one they all call when they can't figure out how to do something. What does it tell you as a fellow Mac user when you see someone who's been with the OS since it first turned to color, all of a sudden having very serious doubts about my love for Lion? I've seen the same screen shots you have. It's appallingly bland and doesn't appeal to the eye in even the slightest way, in my opinion. It seems that the people who want to see nothing, and experience the least possible from the OS have won. What I've seen of Lion is about as visually impressive as the inside of a hospital. It's apparently what you want in an OS. I may end up using it, but they'll never get me to say that I find it visually pleasing. I never thought I see the day when I'd lose faith in the Mac OS, but Lion has truly let down those of us looking for something more, not less, from our interaction with the OS from what I've seen so far. It's just depressing.

It does indeed inspire a bit of the 'beige box' feeling. And it does give you the feeling that Apple is losing part of what is making it great. This does not feel like Jobs/Ive User Experience Excellence at all.

... Lion may be making some people's lives easier, but it's also going to make a lot of people's lives harder and I don't think Apple is appropriately addressing this demographic from all that I've seen in their screen shots.

The fact is that we live in an 'upgrade world'. This is a real problem for older users who are firmly rooted in the old TV world where you bought an appliance, turned it on, and that was that until it broke. It would be great to be able to switch to a simplified (clarified?) GUI. There was such an option in System 7, I think. I tried to set it up for a friend and it lacked one or two features that she wanted and so it was abandoned.

Indeed it does. I always liked OpenStep, and was never very fond of the "lickable" look (who wants to lick their computer? Eew).

I'm happy to say goodbye to the clown-blew-up-in-your-Mac look and move forward to a future in which the user's content is visually dominant.

I don't think there's anything wrong with content being visually dominant. The problem I have is that Lion seems to be ignoring non-power users when there are plenty of them using Macs. While you may find the minimalism and the monochromatic look of Lion to be ascetically pleasing, there are many others that need the variation to successfully interact with the OS. The changes to the buttons is a wrong choice in my opinion. The buttons the US uses now (the oblong ones) are visually different enough that the eye catches them, and they are elegant as well. The "boxy" look of the buttons in Lion looks ugly, like something out of Windows, and not "lickable" as Steve put it, in my opinion. For every person out there who enjoys the ultimate minimalist OS where visual cues aren't distinctive, there are those who prefer or need that distinction. Apple is sacrificing those who prefer visually distinctive elements in the OS for those who see everything as a distraction. Of every OS Apple has introduced since my beginning use of System 7, Lion is the very first release that hasn't inspired me. It just looks cold, bleak, and dead to me. That's not inspiring at all, nor is it even remotely "lickable".

I think on the whole it looks good but Im unsure about the scrollbars.

As I understand you now have to mouse over the area before the scrollbars appear?

The presence of the scrollbars always acted as a hint that there was more to see, it seems in Lion you will have to mouse over everything to find this out? Hardly user friendly

Actually, the scroll bars don't appear unless you are scrolling. They sit on top of content, so if you going to click something where the scroll bars are at, they would appear and get in the way. They also show and disappear whenever you open a screen that scrolls. Really, that's all that i need, but some other people prefer it the classic way.

I posted this video before, but you should take a look at it, I tried to show off the behavior of the bars.

This looks very...Dull. Windows-ish. Seems like change for changes sake. I guess square buttons might have some teeny tiny bit of increased functionality, but ones that look so drab the blend in to the rest of the screen? Doesn't make sense.

And look at the window function buttons, they look so much more bland as well.

Not sure which version of Windows everyone is referring to, but the new interface looks nothing like Windows.

To tell ya the truth, Apple could ax the scroll bar completely and I wouldn't even notice it... so I guess they could leave them in too for that matter. Just not a big deal at all for most of the people I know.

@Brian Green
Uhm... considering your Grandma... she's already a "tech-head" whether she knows it or not. I'll admit change may come difficult for her. I'm curious as hell how she deals with Pages and it's miniscule UI elements and dialog boxes. Yes, it has color and the top bar can by enlarged... but the rest must be quite painful for her. Comparing it to the "spare-look" of Lion... I'm having a hard time justifying your continuous gripe here, because the Lion GUI at least looks easy to read.

I'm wondering if some day Apple will allow more system-wide modding for just these customers. There use to be such a thing with Shapeshifter haxies, if I I recall? Although at that time, I believe you could totally hose the system.

Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member

The Worst kind of people are people that whine like you. Not to mention the fact that you have zero proof, just some childish crap.

i'm the worse kind of people? flame bait if there ever was... and i'll bite.

I am an apple fan. I use mac professionally and also at home. I don't believe I was whining - I'm criticising elements of lion and apple's approach. I'm not criticising to whine but rather in hope that lion improves drastically before launch. I love snow leopard - it's great. Has bugs like all of apple's software (you should try using motion!) but If I had to upgrade my office to lion today I know i'll have the employees all swearing at me. And I'd have to spend an hour inverting the scrollbars on each machine

zero proof of what btw? That it might end up being apple's vista - i made a conjecture. Basically I meant that Lion might leave lots of people especially upgraders with a bitter after taste and might need help turning off all the nifty features...

i installed lion out of curiosity to see the great new features first hand - and the great new features are pretty cool - it's the little changes that don't need to be there that niggle. So excuse me if I came across like a whiner but I'd like to hear about your great experiences with lion.

apple appear to have decided to design lion for 1st time users who are coming in from iphone and ipad usage as their only previous computer experience. Any person with experience of desktop coomputing in the past 10 years might be puzzled and confused by seemingly simple changes which are just irritating and unnecessary.

While I for one didn't care for the candy colors in Aqua, I did like the 3 dimensionality of it.

Dated or not, I think the highlights and glosses of Aqua make dealing with buttons, sliders, and the like easier, particularly when you factor in "maturing vision".

To me that's one thing Apple seems to be ignoring; that one segment of its customer base find increasingly fine default resolutions, tiny fonts and uniform color schemes more of a hindrance than a help.

I am inclined to agree with you - I think the older style looks more friendly
This newer style is more stark, and less friendly looking

Some would say - more business like...

I think that some parts of the interface are a step backwards...

I do't like the monochrome window control buttons for instance
- It means that instead of just clicking, now I have to stop and think about it, to work out which one does what - so "Targeting" is now much poorer..

Also when example screens are shown, we really need to compare like with like
- But the two screen shown are different, and so cannot be directly compaired, for instance the missing scrollbars, may be missing because they are not required on one screen, but the other - showing different content DOES require them - so a poor comparison there.

I like gray for the interface. I think all the color should be coming from the content not the interface. Grays and blacks are timeless. Psychologically they represent both power and submission. Whites represent purity and innocence. Bright colors are interpreted differently by different cultures and Mac is global so it makes sense to be neutral. I don't think you should worry about the interface becoming too monochromatic, it will feel natural after you get used to it. I have always set my desktop to gray since I do a lot of color work. That way I don't have any conflicts when designing.

I couldn't agree more. Timeless, neutral, and professional are the words.
The rounded blue scrollbars, the blue buttons, etc of the current Aqua UI are a bit childish and reminiscent of the original all-plastic imac G3. Those elements have nothing to do with the brushed aluminum of today's macs.http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...i=g10&aql=&oq=

Apple's next desktop operating system release will tone down much of the Aqua user interface and change how screen captures handle windows' drop down sheets.

The most obvious Aqua gloss stripped from Mac OS X Lion involves scroll bars, which are replaced with iOS-like, grey segments that disappear when not in use. The Finder and Mail also drop the use of bubbly, colorful toolbar and source-list icons, indicating a general preference for simpler, monochromatic icons similar to those used in iPad apps.

Is this the new Apple, post Steve Jobs?

I don't like what I see, especially the reverse scrolling through pages where I have to move the finger UP if I want to scrool down the page. I really don't like it.

Apple: Please give users a System Preference to set the direction for scrolling down a page.

I've been using Macs since the 512Ke with System 4 (I think - in those days when an update came out you took a floppy to your Mac store and they gave you a copy). System 6 was a breath of fresh air and System 7 was a game changer. I've used OS 10.3 - 10.6 and I cannot see myself 'upgrading' to Lion as there does not appear to be anything under the hood. It appears to be all about unifying MacOS and iOS.

That is all very well and good for many I am sure, but I simply don't need that. However, I am willing to keep an open mind about it.

I've been using Macs since the 512Ke with System 4 (I think - in those days when an update came out you took a floppy to your Mac store and they gave you a copy). System 6 was a breath of fresh air and System 7 was a game changer. I've used OS 10.3 - 10.6 and I cannot see myself 'upgrading' to Lion as there does not appear to be anything under the hood. It appears to be all about unifying MacOS and iOS.

That is all very well and good for many I am sure, but I simply don't need that. However, I am willing to keep an open mind about it.

Although I cannot really disagree with what you said, how do you know that there is nothing "under the hood"? Personally I know nothing about it and I think we will have to wait for the release to find out more.

A problem with not updating is that you are going to be left out in the cold from a system-update point of view. Apple generally offers software updates up to one major OS version back. I am still on Leopard and I get regularly security and software updates. But I am afraid that after the Lion release, Apple will focus on Snow Leopard and Lion.

I'm more than happy to eliminate eye candy if it means a more streamlined powerful efficient operability. I've never found myself so entranced by rainbow colored jelly bean buttons not to notice a spinning beach ball.

And that's just from a grandma who belongs to a garden club (and composes monthly newsletters in Pages) and has a couple grand kids (she's the typical "snap-happy" grandma who loves her digital camera, and fills it routinely).

448gb of movies and 381gb of music. is your grandma ripping blu rays and a full time DJ?

448gb of movies and 381gb of music. is your grandma ripping blu rays and a full time DJ?

LOL, not that I'm aware of, but you never know. From what I saw, it's her inability to NOT save any attachment she gets in an email. Remember, that I just wrote down the top level and didn't drill down. She organizes well, and everything is in folders. She has so many videos on quilt making that it boggles the mind, and I'm pretty sure everything Bob Ross did too.

On another note, I do find it almost amusing that we live in a world where grandkids have to wonder whether or not their grandparents will actually fill up a 2TB HD! The music folder includes the movies in iTunes (and more importantly the thousands of video podcasts she has - and she's watched them all). So far, she hasn't figured out how to save YouTube videos on her computer (and I won't show her) otherwise, she'd likely have maxed out the HD by now.

I just realised scrolling is inverted in Lion(???) This is messed up. I'm not liking Lion. Lack of cohesion at Apple, as I say. They're struggling to iOS-ify OS X and we're seeing some weird stuff happening.

I think we can easily dismiss everyone in the chat room here who disses this new look, to which I'm quite neutral, as a "windows lookalike". Personally I like the concept of toning down aqua which seemed always cocky and childish to me, don't know if this is the right answer to it.

Now, these people do not understand neither windows nor apple, and should not be listened, period. Specially those who argue as "but I'm like a ten year user with lots of expensive machines, and I should be listened to!".

I don't have any axes to grind to those who simply do not like the new look. I don't think they have good taste, but that's subjective.

But to say this is "windows" is just mind-boggingly stupid. Windows never used this subtle grey color scheme, with its subtle gradients and minimalistic look. Windows was always about the fugly grey boxes and hugely bordered blue windows, peaking with its FisherPrice look in Windows XP. To say that this is "Windows 95" just shows how suffering from amnesia so many people are. How I'd hope that Windows 95 looked like this! It never did, and Windows in general never will.

Windows 7, from which I'm a user, btw, is a mix mash of designing tendencies, from minimalistic, to fisherprice, to aqua, etc., even discarding the skins pc manufacturers like hp like to add in front of it. It has no coherence, and certainly it is not the minimalistic OS like the one here being tested.

Windows never was minimalistic. Do not confuse minimalism with simplism, which is what windows always was.