As I've already stated repeatedly, yes, "Data 2.0" has most of the "charateristics" (or at least the memories) of the original, but the crucial point is that he also has new characteristics that the original didn't have. Those memories are being run by different, more advanced software and firmware modeled on Noonien Soong's own brain architecture, so I expect he's going to turn out to have an amalgam of Data's and Soong's personalities -- as I said, like a Trill joining. This isn't about the philosophical niceties of identity -- it's about the fact that, from a strictly story-based viewpoint, this is not a return to the status quo ante, because there are real and meaningful differences in who Data is now, whether or not you believe he has continuity with the original.

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I don't know that still sounds like Data is back from the dead, which would still be cop out. I mean you even said that it can be taken as Data is back from the dead with a few differences.

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

Spoilers in the subject, don't know how to use spoilder blocks

When Jasminder died I litterally said out loud "oh my god." it was sudden, brutal and heart wrenching for a character I didnt' even like. I've never read a sentence where a man pulls a phaser and just vaporizes a main character. This was Tasha Yar all over again.

I felt bad for Worf. He's taking the term Lady Killer far to litterally. I think this may be the start for a Worf he returns to the Empire, his Starfleet career has cost him three women now.

This may be the arc where he joins the High Council and perhaps becomes Governor of Hatoria.

I don't know that still sounds like Data is back from the dead, which would still be cop out. I mean you even said that it can be taken as Data is back from the dead with a few differences.

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Nobody is getting my point -- probably because you're judging it without having actually read the book, which is no way to go about having a discussion. I'm not saying it has to be interpreted one way or the other. My whole point is that it's ambiguous enough that you can interpret it either way depending on your personal preferences.

I don't know that still sounds like Data is back from the dead, which would still be cop out. I mean you even said that it can be taken as Data is back from the dead with a few differences.

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Nobody is getting my point -- probably because you're judging it without having actually read the book, which is no way to go about having a discussion. I'm not saying it has to be interpreted one way or the other. My whole point is that it's ambiguous enough that you can interpret it either way depending on your personal preferences.

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I get your point just fine. But the explanation Soong gives, he's simply downloading the memories of Data from B4 into a new android body. Hence, Data 2.0.

From what you say, I don't think you've reached the end of the book yet. It's not as simple as that at all.

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Just finished the book and I don't really see anything that conflicts with my original statement. Even Data says that his life before had concluded.

As far as a rating goes, I'd say its average. Solid but not spectacular.

It had a lot of interesting ideas but it bogged down in the middle. Didn't care for the death of Choudhury, just a road we've been down a couple of times already with Worf. It felt repetitive. Have a feeling that it'll lead Worf to question his fitness for command and whether he wants to stay in Starfleet.

From what you say, I don't think you've reached the end of the book yet. It's not as simple as that at all.

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Just finished the book and I don't really see anything that conflicts with my original statement. Even Data says that his life before had concluded.

As far as a rating goes, I'd say its average. Solid but not spectacular.

It had a lot of interesting ideas but it bogged down in the middle. Didn't care for the death of Choudhury, just a road we've been down a couple of times already with Worf. It felt repetitive. Have a feeling that it'll lead Worf to question his fitness for command and whether he wants to stay in Starfleet.

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Which makes me wonder if their not planning to try to some how fit the novels into leading into something based on or similar to Star Trek Online.

From what you say, I don't think you've reached the end of the book yet. It's not as simple as that at all.

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Just finished the book and I don't really see anything that conflicts with my original statement. Even Data says that his life before had concluded.

As far as a rating goes, I'd say its average. Solid but not spectacular.

It had a lot of interesting ideas but it bogged down in the middle. Didn't care for the death of Choudhury, just a road we've been down a couple of times already with Worf. It felt repetitive. Have a feeling that it'll lead Worf to question his fitness for command and whether he wants to stay in Starfleet.

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Which makes me wonder if their not planning to try to some how fit the novels into leading into something based on or similar to Star Trek Online.

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

I'm a few chapters into part 2, and enjoying it so far. I was a little sceptical about Soong showing up (new android body aside), because revealing characters presumed long dead to actually be with us still, only hiding, is difficult to pull off even for an author as good as Mack (for all that it's consistant with Soong's behaviour). However, part 2 is reassuring me so far, because any objections are being soothed by the great first-person insight into Soong's character. I don't recall Mack attempting this before but thus far it's very successful. I guess that's the first reminder that tricky plot elements can be swallowed easily if the writing is good enough. Whether the novel will pass the second round of that test when a certain someone is returned to the ranks of the functional in...some capacity (yes, I've been reading some of your spoilers)...well, I'll have to wait and see. I've got a sneaking suspicion that I'm going to be left in an uncomfortable place regarding it; I'll explain more, naturally, when I've finished the book and discovered if I'm right or not.

Just finished the book and I don't really see anything that conflicts with my original statement. Even Data says that his life before had concluded.

As far as a rating goes, I'd say its average. Solid but not spectacular.

It had a lot of interesting ideas but it bogged down in the middle. Didn't care for the death of Choudhury, just a road we've been down a couple of times already with Worf. It felt repetitive. Have a feeling that it'll lead Worf to question his fitness for command and whether he wants to stay in Starfleet.

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Which makes me wonder if their not planning to try to some how fit the novels into leading into something based on or similar to Star Trek Online.

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Or Star Trek: Countdown?

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Well Countdown is part of STO's backstory so its not like it has to be a one or the other thing.

Though if they go this way I'm going to be further annoyed becuase it makes the novl guys come off (to me at least) as incapable of furthering the Trek timeline on their own.

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

Great book, typical high-quality writing from Mr. Mack.

Part 2 was remarkably well-written and entirely engaging. In part 3, the stylistic use of intercuts, such as "Three Minutes Ago", were a welcome storytelling technique and added a bit fun to what could have been some very grim scenes. It reminded me of a Moffet-penned Doctor Who episode.

The "story developments" of the novel were tactfully handled and I imagine them stirring very strong reactions in the reading audience (if the posters on this thread are any indication) but I will say that actual readers of the book will feel much more positive about the story's conclusion than those who seem to be basing their opinions on heresay. Going into this book, I was very ambivalent about what I suspected was going to occur with a certain erstwhile crew member, but the strength of Mr. Mack's story won me over. I'm now excited to read the next volume and see where the narrative goes from here.

On a side note, I wonder when we'll be hearing from the mysterious figure that popped in and out of Part 2: in the second volume of this trilogy or the third? I don't think the summoning device he left was destroyed in the destruction of the privately-owned moon, so I'll assume it's still in play somewhere -- possibly hidden inside that cool Archeus ship and just waiting to be activated.

Just finished the book and I don't really see anything that conflicts with my original statement.

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It's not about a conflict. Your original statement simply overlooked some additional factors.

The "android body" is not just an empty receptacle. As I've said repeatedly, it has fundamental differences from Data's original body and brain. Physically, it has a lot of abilities Data didn't have, and neurologically, the firmware and operating system of its positronic brain are significantly different from those of the original Data's brain. Basically this is the Soong android's brain, a brain designed to replicate the living Soong's neural architecture and personality, but with Soong's memories wiped and Data's loaded into it.

What you're assuming is that Data's memories represent the entirety of what Data was, and the book does, in fact, make clear statements that conflict with that assumption. It establishes in Soong's internal monologue that there are two components to consider here, Data's memories and his programming. The reason downloading Lal's memories into Data didn't turn Data into Lal, and ditto for Data and B-4, is because they were just the memories, not the operating system itself. Soong's intent was to create a new body for Data with an operating system that could handle Data's, err, data, since B-4's OS couldn't handle that load without crashing. But that new body was destroyed by the Borg, and ultimately Soong sacrificed himself to let Data have his body -- and that comes with the distinct hardware and operating system of his brain, which were designed for Soong rather than for Data.

So while this new entity has all of Data's memories, he still has Soong's brain structure, which could mean he'll retain aspects of Soong's psychology or personality. Or that the parts of the two beings could synergize in unpredictable ways.

And again, my point is NOT that anyone has to believe it really isn't Data or that it really is. My point is that it doesn't matter. Those who want to believe it's the same being are perfectly able to do so if that's what satisfies them. But those who want to believe it isn't are equally justified to come to that conclusion. There's no point arguing over it because it satisfies both groups.

But whether you think it's the same Data or not, he's still changed. It's not just a return to the status quo. He won't just be back at the ops station on the Enterprise giving exposition. He's got a new outlook on life, a new set of goals. He's turned down the offer to return to Starfleet and gone off on a new quest of his own, seeking the Commonwealth of AIs. He can even use contractions freely now. As I've been saying, if you're going to resurrect a character, that's the right way to do it -- by making it a new direction for the character rather than just a lazy reset.

Even Data says that his life before had concluded.

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And he also said that even he wasn't sure if he was the same entity as the original.

So while this new entity has all of Data's memories, he still has Soong's brain structure, which could mean he'll retain aspects of Soong's psychology or personality. Or that the parts of the two beings could synergize in unpredictable ways.

And again, my point is NOT that anyone has to believe it really isn't Data or that it really is. My point is that it doesn't matter. Those who want to believe it's the same being are perfectly able to do so if that's what satisfies them. But those who want to believe it isn't are equally justified to come to that conclusion. There's no point arguing over it because it satisfies both groups.

But whether you think it's the same Data or not, he's still changed. It's not just a return to the status quo. He won't just be back at the ops station on the Enterprise giving exposition. He's got a new outlook on life, a new set of goals. He's turned down the offer to return to Starfleet and gone off on a new quest of his own, seeking the Commonwealth of AIs. He can even use contractions freely now. As I've been saying, if you're going to resurrect a character, that's the right way to do it -- by making it a new direction for the character rather than just a lazy reset.

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Everything you've stated here points to Data 2.0. I'm not sure how anyone can interpret it any other way. Different body and different operating system plus not having all of the originals memories. How could he be the same person when he missed a defining moment of his existence?

Our resurrected Data is a copy of the original. A clone from a memory perspective. I'm not criticizing the method, I personally think it was the best we could hope for.

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

I've never understood why saying that something is like comic book is used as a negative? Sure they might not always be the pinnacle of good story telling, but they've also been around for decades, made billions of dollars, launched some hugely popular movie and TV franchises, and introduced cultural icons like Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man. I don't see where any of those is a negative.