tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post2611695589710026055..comments2019-09-15T05:15:06.836-07:00Comments on Alexandra Sokoloff: The Lover Makes A Stand (romantic comedy structure)Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-6307014995463672832010-09-14T16:52:48.545-07:002010-09-14T16:52:48.545-07:00I think in some stories where the romance is a sub...I think in some stories where the romance is a subplot, you can have neither party pursuing, because the circumstances throw them together. That can heighten the sexual tension because both might want, but both have reluctance to act. For example, WITNESS. If circumstances didn’t keep them together, neither character would have pursued the relationship.<br /><br />Of course, when the romance is the main plot, SOMEBODY’s got to do something or you’re going to have a very short and/or boring story :-)<br /><br />Thinking of examples with the woman pursuing and the man the pursued, brings me to CHARADE. Where Audrey Hepburn is the pursuer/lover and Cary Grant the pursued/loved. It’s interesting to think of that movie in light of the Make a Stand concept, because she makes serial stands – one for each of his names.Patricia McLinnhttp://www.PatriciaMcLinn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-86540881992674259312010-07-12T14:26:04.823-07:002010-07-12T14:26:04.823-07:00Gayle, it&#39;s such a great movie but I haven&#39...Gayle, it&#39;s such a great movie but I haven&#39;t seen it in way too long.<br /><br />I imagine the all is lost moment comes when the brother gets back into town, and probably there&#39;s some huge Italian style guilt and angst over it, but I don&#39;t remember it - of course the scenes everyone remembers are the &quot;We are here to love the wrong people&quot; and &quot;You&#39;re a wolf without a foot/Bride without a head&quot; scenes.Alexandra Sokoloffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02881770599534651858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-26762341294114782952010-07-11T14:38:19.572-07:002010-07-11T14:38:19.572-07:00Alex - how would we break down Moonstruck in that ...Alex - how would we break down Moonstruck in that Lover-Makes-a-Stand? I can see that Nicolas Cage makes a stand after they go see La Boheme and he reveals that he doesn&#39;t want to keep their bargain, of never seeing her again (I love his rant of &quot;we are here to ruin ourselves and love the wrong people&quot;). Cher finally stops trying to do the right thing logically and submits to her feelings. But I never see a moment when all might be lost. What would be your take on its structure?Gayle Carlinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15783449240138097315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-8483014757832280442010-07-10T11:19:16.192-07:002010-07-10T11:19:16.192-07:00Welcome, WC! You&#39;ll see when you start readin...Welcome, WC! You&#39;ll see when you start reading back posts - I&#39;m not a romance writer either. All genres welcome, and cross-genres encouraged.<br /><br />We can all learn all kinds of things from each other.Alexandra Sokoloffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02881770599534651858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-91244293394571441162010-07-10T07:50:09.471-07:002010-07-10T07:50:09.471-07:00Your blog was suggested to my by Laughingwolf and ...Your blog was suggested to my by Laughingwolf and I&#39;m so glad he did! I&#39;m not a romance writer. In fact, I&#39;m on my very first WIP, but it will have romance in it-beginning in the second book and ending in the final third one. I really look forward to reading your posts and congratulations on the new release!The Words Crafterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14520267901489487512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-91940518241001753352010-07-09T06:11:33.277-07:002010-07-09T06:11:33.277-07:00Stephen, what a great example! I think that&#39;s...Stephen, what a great example! I think that&#39;s a slightly different kind of stand that Andie MacDowell is making, but worth noting all on its own. <br /><br />I think I&#39;d call it more of an &quot;I wouldn&#39;t be with you if you were the last person on earth, asshole&quot; stand. But in a lot of romantic comedies, it takes just that harsh of a stand for the protagonist to wake up to his own bullshit. That scene starts Bill Murray&#39;s truly fantastic road to self-discovery, and I love it that Andie senses the bullshit game he&#39;s playing even though logically, she doesn&#39;t know what he&#39;s doing.<br /><br />Brilliant scene, and brilliant film.Alexandra Sokoloffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02881770599534651858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-12874613196235673942010-07-09T06:04:57.718-07:002010-07-09T06:04:57.718-07:00Starbucks, you can definitely have a scene like th...Starbucks, you can definitely have a scene like this as part of a love subplot; in fact, being aware of common climactic moments of other genres and knowing how to give those scenes weight will help you build tension in your own genre.<br /><br />Sounds like your hero is making a choice between love and duty, always a great dramatic tension, and choosing duty over love is one of the things that sometimes makes a person more lovable, right? As in Casablanca...!Alexandra Sokoloffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02881770599534651858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-80891411160457504382010-07-09T04:51:58.047-07:002010-07-09T04:51:58.047-07:00In GROUNDHOG DAY, the scene with the accumlated sl...In GROUNDHOG DAY, the scene with the accumlated slaps, does that count as making a stand?Stephen D. Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12356287007864614439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-18918004399665401542010-07-08T20:10:52.811-07:002010-07-08T20:10:52.811-07:00a lotta info here from everyone!
thx so much :)a lotta info here from everyone!<br /><br />thx so much :)laughingwolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08873675614347328116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-22015191531626384912010-07-08T14:22:37.593-07:002010-07-08T14:22:37.593-07:00So what about putting this sort of moment in a thr...So what about putting this sort of moment in a thriller with a side love story. I&#39;d say mine comes in Act 3, right before the climax, in fact, it amounts to my character&#39;s emotional climax when he must forsake all to go save the world. But is that really the same thing or am I off base?sex scenes at starbucks,https://www.blogger.com/profile/15527483283426518167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-31462711510047589792010-07-08T09:40:46.203-07:002010-07-08T09:40:46.203-07:00That’s a good example, Greg – haven’t thought of t...That’s a good example, Greg – haven’t thought of that film in a while. This discussion is reminding me why I don’t write romantic comedy. All of that push-pull of romance, changing roles… losing everything... it’s exhausting enough in real life.Alexandra Sokoloffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02881770599534651858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-7555477836315709482010-07-08T09:40:22.024-07:002010-07-08T09:40:22.024-07:00Thanks, Josie. Of course all these different genr...Thanks, Josie. Of course all these different genre structures can translate to other genres - I love mixing and matching.Alexandra Sokoloffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02881770599534651858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-53317139071120292352010-07-08T09:38:54.386-07:002010-07-08T09:38:54.386-07:00Scott, thanks for all the great observations!
I t...Scott, thanks for all the great observations! <br />I totally agree that the ideal would be that in the &quot;dark moment&quot; it really does look like there&#39;s no hope for the relationship. But in reality... I rarely see a film that pulls that off. In Philadelphia Story, you can almost see Katharine Hepburn choosing Jimmy Stewart, but that&#39;s about as close as it gets.<br /><br />Although Alec Baldwin made a great case for himself in It&#39;s Complicated. It seems to take the really great actors to pull off the kind of ambiguity you need in these dynamics.Alexandra Sokoloffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02881770599534651858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-84519705946722719372010-07-08T07:22:07.503-07:002010-07-08T07:22:07.503-07:00Hi Alex,
I think Moulin Rouge has some good examp...Hi Alex,<br /><br />I think Moulin Rouge has some good examples. <br /><br />Christian is the lover and pursuer for much of the movie. He makes his Declaration to Satine when she visits him to deny their love so he won’t have to see her die from TB. <br /><br />After this scene, the roles reverse as she becomes the lover as a consequence of her denial which pushes her to, during the climax, sing their secret song to him.<br /><br />I think that this scene could be interpreted as the Lover making a Stand as much as a Declaration because her stand is being made against fast approaching death. <br />She wants Christian to know she loves him before tuberculosis kills her.<br /><br />G.G.R. Yeateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10242249395438588449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-9578892339620732372010-07-08T07:11:44.853-07:002010-07-08T07:11:44.853-07:00I would add that I believe the groveling is necess...I would add that I believe the groveling is necessary redemption; it&#39;s usually pretty fair recompense for the loved one&#39;s past deeds. <br /><br />Another distinction is that the lover, the heart of the story, is waiting for the loved one/pursuer to work through their ego issues - which produces the dramatic hijinks of the story, the *fun* - so they can just love. Once you have/realize love, there is no longer a need to pursue... or a story to tell.<br /><br />I learned from Mernit and/or Snyder that we have to believe the loved one blew it completely at that point, and there is no way they are going to repair this damage. Though we can clearly see they are perfect for each other, alas, all is lost...<br /><br />As for being fine on our own... I think most of us know on some (unconscious?) level that the best love relationships are where we are able to see in others the best aspects of ourselves. It&#39;s not as romantic as saying &quot;You complete me&quot; but is perhaps handy knowledge for writers, in my humble opinion.<br /><br />That said, I love you all and what you&#39;re doing here! :)Scott Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-83318408739434443172010-07-08T07:10:05.255-07:002010-07-08T07:10:05.255-07:00Thanks for the great post! It&#39;s always so gre...Thanks for the great post! It&#39;s always so great to see structures of different genres!Josie Thameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08981108405674259898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-84443099642224113212010-07-07T11:02:55.126-07:002010-07-07T11:02:55.126-07:00Oh, Sonja, I agree with everything you&#39;ve said...Oh, Sonja, I agree with everything you&#39;ve said, and the RTS treatment of the issue is about the best I&#39;ve ever seen.<br /><br />It&#39;s just when you say &quot;dark&quot; to me... well, my mind goes places no romantic comedy should go. ;)Alexandra Sokoloffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02881770599534651858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-83138462768831439152010-07-07T10:29:11.942-07:002010-07-07T10:29:11.942-07:00Well, for romance novels, the relationship and the...Well, for romance novels, the relationship and the love is the main thing-- the payoff, the goal. The characters being fine on their own is kind of a secondary goal. So yeah, I stand by it being the dark moment. <br /><br />The characters still arc, but in a good romance, they arc, they learn to be ok alone, but they find that they are even better together. <br /><br />This totally happens in Romancing the Stone. Joan goes back to New York, writes a fabulous book, and is FINE on her own (and so much less dysfunctional than she was at the beginning of the movie), but we still cheer when Jack comes back with a boat and his alligator boots.Sonja Fousthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00874425238467467926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-34047384948300938812010-07-07T06:08:47.695-07:002010-07-07T06:08:47.695-07:00Hah, Sonja, yes, I&#39;ve noticed the groveling as...Hah, Sonja, yes, I&#39;ve noticed the groveling aspect. I hate to include that in a list of must-haves, though...<br /><br />Interesting to hear that&#39;s called the &quot;dark moment&quot;. I guess you could say that all is lost in the love relationship, at that point, but the Makes a Stand scene is always coming from such a position of strength and self-knowledge, too. You know at that point that the Lover is going to be fine, with or without the weenie Loved One.<br /><br />I love how forces the Loved One to make her or his own declaration.Alexandra Sokoloffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02881770599534651858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27131013.post-90869147902577361382010-07-07T06:00:59.455-07:002010-07-07T06:00:59.455-07:00I can see where you&#39;re on to something. I thin...I can see where you&#39;re on to something. I think in romance novel land, we usually call that the dark moment, because when the lover makes the declaration, the loved one is usually not in a position to respond the way the lover would like, and all is lost. Of course, the loved one eventually comes around, and usually grovels a little to make up for being such a weenie about it.Sonja Fousthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00874425238467467926noreply@blogger.com