kyarazen wrote:the homologue of yixing collection in thailand is the collecting of buddhist paraphernalia, or like i would say disdainfully.. little clay tablets of images etc. i've ceased collecting thai buddhist paraphernalia for a very long time already although the itch comes back sometimes..

if you head to thaprachan, it can be possible to buy somdej wat rakangs by somdej toh by the kilograms! comes in a bucket soaked in a certain mixture to give the aged patina. you can buy phra-ayuthaya style buddhas in all sorts of sizes, some even with nicely made patinas. for thai amulets it has already reached the point where the fake and the real cannot be easily distinguished. there's now laser scanning and mold creation technologies, all the markings that the magazines and books talk about are now faithfully introduced in all the replica amulets. every year there are also countless competitions across thailand where phraks are verified, and given a certificate if they win etc. soon after it was possible to purchase professionally made certificates with the right "signatures" and water marks.

i'm just drawing a parallel to yixing wares. if the thais can do excellent forges of clay tablets, the chinese can be very advanced with their antiques. whether the point of forging antique yixing or antique porcelain has reached the point where the real/fake cannot be easily distinguished... its perhaps time for the hobbyists to train themselves, and to realize in time to come

Tead Off wrote:Gemstones are already being faked, and faked extremely well. They can fool all but the very trained eye.

So far, I'm not sure if I have come across any 'fake' antique Yixing. I think it would be extremely difficult to fake the 'look' of Qing or Ming teapots. You can copy the style, the shape, etc., but the look of the actual clay, patina, etc., is very hard to do. Not saying it is impossible as that would be naive statement. The Chinese are masters at copying and with the addition of technology, the sky is the limit.

For me, there comes a point when the above converges in a way where it is very difficult to separate the old from not old and common to be fooled. That is the time to walk away. I will not buy many things that I used to buy years ago in my field of antiquities.

Many people with scientific backgrounds that understand material composition and analysis often think that duplication of old things is just a matter of getting the 'formula' right. In almost all cases of deception, something gives it away as being reproduced. Perfection of duplicity is extremely difficult. It is probably a very small percentage that can withstand sustained scrutiny. The really scary stuff is the porcelain replication of period blue and whites which bring big bucks. But even in this field, the sleuths have caught up with the forgers. It is a cat and mouse game. One side leads the other. And, no one is spared from making a mistake.

Thanks debunix. Here's what I'm currently using. About 200 - 225 ml. One of a set of 4 commemorating the 4 ancient Chinese beauties. Purchased the set in Yixing around 2009 on a rainy Friday afternoon. The artist's nephew was tending shop and was fairly inflexible on the price which I believe was around 2000 renminbi for all four. I thought about buying just one but realized there was no way I should break up the set. But the price was just too high for me. I put down a firm offer of 600 renminbi but he wouldn't budge.

I was with a Singaporean friend who spoke fluent Chinese and we decided to continue shopping. It was in May or June and an unusually cold and wet day. And business in Yixing was practically non-existant. Maybe an hour or two later we doubled back and came across the same area in Dingshu town and the nephew saw us walking by and invited us in for tea. A very good sign indeed. Through my friend I explained how much I appreciated the beauty of all four teapots, each unique and slightly different, and that while I wished I could purchase and cherish them, the price was just too much for me. After my friend translated, we sat and enjoyed some oolong with no words spoken between us. We thanked the nephew for his hospitality at which point he offered the entire set of four at the price I requested, 600 renminbi. Had it not been a cold, wet, and slow business day, there is no doubt in my mind that I would not have gotten a good price and not purchased these teapots.

squaretooth wrote:Thanks debunix. Here's what I'm currently using. About 200 - 225 ml. One of a set of 4 commemorating the 4 ancient Chinese beauties. Purchased the set in Yixing around 2009 on a rainy Friday afternoon. The artist's nephew was tending shop and was fairly inflexible on the price which I believe was around 2000 renminbi for all four. I thought about buying just one but realized there was no way I should break up the set. But the price was just too high for me. I put down a firm offer of 600 renminbi but he wouldn't budge.

I was with a Singaporean friend who spoke fluent Chinese and we decided to continue shopping. It was in May or June and an unusually cold and wet day. And business in Yixing was practically non-existant. Maybe an hour or two later we doubled back and came across the same area in Dingshu town and the nephew saw us walking by and invited us in for tea. A very good sign indeed. Through my friend I explained how much I appreciated the beauty of all four teapots, each unique and slightly different, and that while I wished I could purchase and cherish them, the price was just too much for me. After my friend translated, we sat and enjoyed some oolong with no words spoken between us. We thanked the nephew for his hospitality at which point he offered the entire set of four at the price I requested, 600 renminbi. Had it not been a cold, wet, and slow business day, there is no doubt in my mind that I would not have gotten a good price and not purchased these teapots.

Tead Off wrote:Many people with scientific backgrounds that understand material composition and analysis often think that duplication of old things is just a matter of getting the 'formula' right. In almost all cases of deception, something gives it away as being reproduced. Perfection of duplicity is extremely difficult. It is probably a very small percentage that can withstand sustained scrutiny. The really scary stuff is the porcelain replication of period blue and whites which bring big bucks. But even in this field, the sleuths have caught up with the forgers. It is a cat and mouse game. One side leads the other. And, no one is spared from making a mistake.

both! combining scientific and artistic approach. like you said, in all cases of deception, if there is just one single criteria that fails, but 99.9% of other aspects are "real", its up the buyer and collector to decide whether to accept or not. similarly, if the material is wrong, but the art seems right, the buyer may need to consider. china has been able to produce talents like Zhang Da Qian and many more others. 代工壶 services is not uncommon both in china and taiwan.

you're absolutely right about blue white, and the constant cat and mouse game. qing hua is really difficult now, back then, more advanced antiquities dealers thought they had an upperhand with thermoluminescence dating methods, coupled with other surface based analysis methods.. but now it is possible to pre-irradiate the porcelain to give it a certain "age" desired..

Comments in another thread prompted me to take some more photos to share of this little pot. I'm not expecting to find it's worth a mint--it does lovely things with Dan Cong so have earned a permanent place in my collection. I'm just curious as to whether these photos will reveal anything interesting about the clay or the making of the pot.

kyarazen wrote: qing hua is really difficult now, back then, more advanced antiquities dealers thought they had an upperhand with thermoluminescence dating methods, coupled with other surface based analysis methods.. but now it is possible to pre-irradiate the porcelain to give it a certain "age" desired..

You are right.

I have a friend who is an expert in Porcelain and teapots. His father deal in antique porcelain in early 1900 and he took over the business. He is now retired and very knowledgable on porcelain. His house is flooded with books on porcelain and auction houses results all over the world.

He always boasted about his adventure and windfall with western auction houses. What he told me he did was he took a old porcelain shards dug from grave or archeological sites and rebuild the porcelain from the base. All the proportion, color, weight styles and firing surface matched the porcelain of the era of the base. When they send it to auction houses, usually some particles are scrapped from the base and the TL dating would confirm the age. I am not sure he is joking or not but sense that there some truth in his stories. Perhaps there are many other ways which he did not want to reveal. Judging from his real estate, he might have profited from this adventure. So with that stories, it made me very jittery and super cautious about putting any money in antique pots or porcelain.

As for Yixing teapots, my preference is still focus on pots from 70-90s. They were cheap, made of real Zisha and I am familiar with it. They have soul and brew tea beautifully. Those earlier than 60s pots or master pots are just for academic studies, and I have not seen or familiar with the real ones and won't want to risk my money with it. The newer pots have a lot of guessing games so I rather not dwell on it. I prefer to spend the money on quality tea instead. Well, it just my personal preference and I am happy with it whether I am right or wrong.

I know of a Korean sellers who deal antique Yixings, most of pots (in my eyes) are fakes. He doesn't have guts to take them on online, though..since there can be make attackers online. Many of pots...so expensive!

I don't claim to be expert of any kind, from now on I wanna refuse to comment such things. But it's a matter of artistic value and for ones who understand where their money go, his customers are at least the ones who can't weigh the values to money. In that, you are smarter than many Koreans. I do know his logics and formulas won't be applied in China and Taiwan.

squaretooth wrote:All Yixing except for a Jian Shui. Can you spot it?]

4th from the top, how about the 6th in the bottom shelf? Is it a Chaozhou?

6th on the bottom shelf (from left to right) is the Jian Shui. 4th on the top (from left to right) is a Da Hong Pao. Other than the Jian Shui, all other teapots are Yixing. Here is my favorite. Not for brewing tea, but from an artistic view.