Mint’s weekly sales figures fall flat

The U.S. Mint’s numismatic sales figures for the week ending April 23, 2017, are probably giving the Mint’s accountants a giant collective headache—but they do make for an interesting discussion of buyer behavior. Much of the excitement (for lack of a better word) seems to be an ongoing ripple effect that started with the April 4 release of the 2017 Congratulations Set. Mint News Blog readers will remember it well, with its surprise S-mintmarked American Eagle silver Proof coin. The Mint’s entire supply sold out in under two minutes, leaving a great many customers frustrated and angry.

Looking at the Mint’s weekly sales data for 2017 to date shows that retail buying patterns got interesting the week before the 2017 Congratulations Set was released. Consumers had been purchasing roughly 10 to 25 of the 2016 Congratulations Sets (16RF) per week since the first report of 2017. The week ending April 2, however, sales jumped to 462. Were the Mint’s customers worried that the 2016 sets would no longer be available after April 4? Or were they being trigger-happy as the news spread about the special ASE coin in the 2017 set?

April 4 came and went, and the 2017 Congratulations Sets, as noted, sold out in under two minutes. The Mint issued a statement that a few more of the sets would be made available as returns, order cancelations, and credit-card cancelations were processed.

The Mint skipped its next numismatic sales report, which would have covered the week ending April 9. When the April 16 report was released, we learned that a net 3,130 of the 2016 Congrats Sets sold during those two weeks. It seemed pretty clear this time that excited customers were hastily buying the 2016 sets, thinking they were getting a few of the 2017’s that could still be available.

On the current report (week ending April 23), the 2016 Congratulations Sets are newly listed as “unavailable.” No doubt the returns will be rolling in on the April 30 report, or perhaps the May 7.

This week’s report is interesting for other reasons as well, one of those being the volume of downward adjustments:

2016 American Eagle 1-oz. silver Proof coins (16EA), -2,522

2016 American Eagle 1-oz. silver Uncirculated coins (16EG), -2,699

2017 American Eagle 1-oz. silver Proof coins (17EA), -18,820

Were these returns related to erroneous purchases during the Congratulations frenzy? Or did it just happen that the Mint chose this report to process adjustments related to ASEs? In any case, the Mint removed a total of 24,041 unit sales from the books. Given that only 18,205 items were sold, the net unit sales figure for the week was actually a negative number: -5,836. It would take a bit of digging to find the last time this happened; certainly, it’s the first time this year.

The Mint’s top-10 sellers the past week were also at a record low for 2017. For the first time this year, only one item in the entire numismatic catalog sold 1,000 or more units: the 2017 U.S. Mint Proof Set (17RG), released March 29, which sold 6,547 units for the period.

To compare the current sales report with those earlier in the year:

Week Ending

No. Products with +1k Units Sold

No. of Units Sold

In Top 10

Overall

Jan. 8

5

10,892

50,065

Jan. 15

5

10,503

22,023

Jan. 22

6

39,837

46,295

Jan. 29

10

35,213

42,267

Feb. 5

5

15,898

19,955

Feb. 12

6

17,338

44,837

Feb. 19

7

58,876

65,513

Feb. 26

8

31,395

38,627

Mar. 5

11

35,339

47,346

Mar. 12

12

61,355

76,029

Mar. 19

9

20,917

26,175

Mar. 26

7

249,815

257,910

Apr. 2

9

221,654

233,031

Apr. 16*

20

168,743

203,889

Apr. 23

1

11,806

-5,836

* Report covers two weeks’ worth of sales.

The question now is whether this week’s sales figures are at a normal low point in the cycle, or much of the Mint’s customer base really is exasperated enough to give up on Mint products. To be fair, there were no new releases at all last week, and the previous week, only one item—the 2017 ATB Uncirculated Set (17AA), released April 10—debuted. The period ending March 19 had no new products that week, but it benefited from the ongoing sales of the 2017 Boys Town commemoratives from the week prior.

The Mint’s next release, the moderately priced ATB Frederick Douglass 5-ounce silver Uncirculated coin (17AK), rolls out May 2, but sales for the series haven’t been strong for a while. The current net figure for the previous 5-ounce coin, Effigy Mounds, is exactly 10 units more than it was on its first week’s sales report (March 12), when it came in at 14,363. The 1-ounce Proof gold Buffalo coin (17EL) debuts May 11, but last year’s version got off to a relatively slow start, and sales puttered on at a steady but unremarkable couple hundred a week for most of 2016.

Whatever the cause of the current malaise, it seems unlikely to lift for at least the next two or three weeks. ❑

Comments

So what happened to the 2016 Cograt sets ? Some IRA”s Or maybe the Donald himself bought the rest to send to his people that helped him out? Hope some show back up? Don’t think so though but if you all hit the remind me button they will put together a few more !! Well Good Luck All”<"”>”>

I saw a dealer offering the 2016 Congratulations Set selling it based on the fact that no one bought it last year when it made sense to do so. The dealer was selling it not for the coin in the set but based on perceived demand in a low selling “set.” So the 2016 W ASE coin wasn’t rare even as a 30th anniversary coin, but the “set” was rare. I don’t know the final product sales number for that 2016 Congratulations Set. I don’t think the Set is a rarity.

That’s a stretch considering it’s not really a set at all but just a different package. Reminds me of the 1983 Prestige Proof Set. Kind of a precursor to the LESPS, it contains the 1983 proof set coins (clad) plus the Olympic proof silver dollar. That particular year Prestige set brings more than the proof set and silver dollar separately.

This might reflect a problem with shipping. I ordered a 2017 Proof Silver Eagle from the Mint, but when it arrived and I examined it, it was a 2016 Proof Silver Eagle! I thought about returning it, but I already have some other duplicates in my collection, and having a duplicate of the modestly unique 30th anniversary version appealed to me more than traipsing down to the post office, waiting in line, and paying shipping on the return. However, it was a near thing for me. If what happened to me was not an isolated experience, it would explain all those ASE returns.

I like the presentation of overall unit sales by week. I always thought it would be nice to look at overall sales by $ value per week. I have a spreadsheet to try to predict sales based on previous weekly sales of the same items and there is a definite year over year pattern. Returns are tricky to factor in. I think the two biggest reasons for returns are dealer/collector cherry picking and subscription orders.

The 2017 Congrats set might have been a success but total revenue wasn’t all that much.

My guess is much of the mint’s customer base is tired of paying way too much for their products, only to see the vast majority of them available for lower prices on the secondary market a year or two later.

I don’t see a lot of reasons for the price of gold to be on the up side enough for gold purchases like the proof Buffalo be be higher than average.
The only outlier in the forthcoming data looks to be GDP which is now projected, but available later today, at .2 percent by the Atlanta Fed. I don’t see how tax reform can be gold for gold, short term that is, and Trump is now stated to be backing away from NAFTA and the border wall, all of which will be good for business.
So, unless gold bugs can’t live without their Buffalo’s, I don’t expect strong sales.
Personally, I believe we a have a floor now under PM’s, so I’m not too worried about a complete collapse of the gold market and I don’t expect a great deal of the regular buyers are either, but will probably hold off for a while and watch the markets reactions over the next couple months. Le Pen is expect to loose the French election, but we will most likely see a continued weakening in gold afterwards towards the floor.

Perhaps, the ‘collectors’ are burnt out & po’d @ mint a tad over the continuing catering to the big boiy. $$ workks the rest is just grist for the mill to the mint. No HH limits left a bad taste & in general the # of collectors is diminishing & making them pissed off doesn’t help the mint. I would have bought more lately, still thinking about W/L AU, but why bother. On eBay one just went for $766! The offering this year are junky ghost images, funked out Liberty, scarce items intended to be sold to the mass marketers, etc. Cound this be some kind of gra$$ root…BOYCOTT….don’t worrry, you can get anything later……unless you want an 1804 $1 or 1933 St.- I only got 2 left anyway from Papa Herb

cagcrisp, After what we have been through over the last decade, that level seems right. I just don’t see indications from history that would suggest it making any large moves down that would set a long term price level below $1,000. I don’t want to put you on the spot, but I would like to know your feelings on a long term price level going forward. Round about that is.

John Q, I was bored a few days ago and looked at sales of the WLH on the bay. A seller by the name of Jesse James had an auction ending in 30 minutes for a WLH in a PCGS 70 First Strike Mercanti signed holder with bids at $750.00. I checked later after it had ended, it sold for $840.00. Not a bad deal for a 70. I wish I could say with some certainty if they will ever increase in value. My instinct is that it will, but I have a hard time thinking it will by much. On the other hand, they’re flipping so poorly, that maybe the only coins remaining after they’re finally pulled will be the ones in strong hands. If that does happen, I can easily see them trading possibly up to $1,500.00 for perfect coins in the desired holders

NOt in favor of a ca$hless, monitored, watched, spied upon society. I know IF you have nothing to hide, why complain……uh huh…a slippery slope covered in good intentions. IRS, FTB, CIA, ICE, FBI, USSC, etc. all the intials in charge LOVE monitoring YOUR finances…..

@So Krates, Not under the Current tax code. There would be no Legal gambling if that happened.

I’m waiting to see how the new roll out of the tax program addresses “Income and Losses”.

I have No problem with paying taxes on Net Income. That’s Not the Current tax code. From what Little I’ve seen, I’m not in favor, however, there are a couple of gambling moguls that are Huge Trump supporters that I will assume will get the laws changed…

Personally, I feel making all cash electronic would threaten my independence, but I can clearly see that it would alleviate many problems for the government and banks. Of course, any attempt to take cash away from us would only create a sure move to cryptocurrencies. On the other hand, Bitcoin may be getting the nod before long, which may be a precursor to a cashless society in the US.

Anyone know where I can learn about the Grove Minting Company? I’ve ordered 3 times from them and I find myself wondering if maybe they are somehow connected to the Philly Mint. They ship from Ardmore PA which is a Philly suburb. The quality of their items is at least equal to any Proof the Mint ever put out. I suspect an Engraver or some sort of Artist from the Mint is doing the remarkable work at Grove Minting.

In the years I’ve been closely monitoring puck sales, with out fail, the first release of the year has always been strong.

The mint must be very frustrated as they might have struck relatively sizable amount and they are now watching inventory grow and stagnate. Even the 2016 Proof ASE and Tributes are beginning to collect some dust.

I’d anticipate some more low mintage wonder surprises this year to ensure they aren’t sitting on more shelved inventory

“The mint must be very frustrated as they might have struck relatively sizable amount”

It undauntedly is difficult for the mint to predict how many of these coins to begin sales with. They must use past sales combined with other data to make a good decision. It’s my guess that there are around 2,500 on the shelf based on an estimate of 17,000. Normally, I might think of buying this one anticipating a low mintage, but I sure as heck wouldn’t buy many of them. I would however bet it won’t beat Volcanoes mintage.

I’m not a collector of ASE’s per se, but I like them especially in the varieties of strikes and finishes. Today I purchased a Proof 2017 S ASE from The Congratulations Set offering through APMEX. They were a little cheaper than sellers on Ebay. I purchased a Proof 70 specimen at $239.00.

I was going to wait until the 2017 LESPS but I may not get through to purchase one. I don’t see the secondary market price of this coin dropping because the collector base for ASE’s is strong. The mintage will be set and it’s low.

Many here still are waiting for their 2017-S ASEordered on April 5th. APMEX is supposed to ship mine by May 19th. Not too bad. At least you know!

Secondary market and the dealer route is more expensive (you don’t buy at mint-issue prices), but the customer service is better, websites are more organized, you get to buy the grade you desire in the first place, and it’s a leisurely experience.

I hold my coins for years so even with the mark-ups in secondary market prices, some value appreciation is expected in this coin I think. I see it being very desirable and rare., all things considered. I didn’t want my frustration and disappointment from being shut out on April 5th to cloud my judgment on eventually purchasing this coin. I’m no expert but I just don’t see the prices falling for this one. It’s a keeper, at least one. And I prefer a 70 Grade.

“A cashless society would mean the government would control every aspect of life. A Leftist’s fantasyland!”

Maybe. I’m no Leftist but the last time I checked it was the folks on the so called right who not only insist on controlling other’s lives but want to regulate what we do with our bodies. Among the things they restrict are reproductive health freedom for women, which substances can and cannot be taken, and which sexual acts can be performed and with whom. Why do conservatives always seem to be overly concerned with what goes on in the bedroom? In addition they usually think the State killing a murderer for revenge is just fine, but if you are suffering from a terminal illness you should be forced to live in pain to the bitter end. Now that’s control.

The world is already so overly dependent on instant transfer of digital data and a cascade of disruptive technologies with no real clue as to how to adapt and live within it’s reach.

Should the sun create a coronal mass ejection (solar flare) with the magnitude of the one in 1859 that cooked the telegraph network in the U.S. and elsewhere, we’ll find ourselves knocked right back to the Stone Age.

DBR, All good points. The only thing that concerns me now is the unknown LESPS mintage. I expect 50,000. The mint can push for more, and WE know where saturation will occur, but I’m not so certain the people at the USM do.

Gary says, “Should the sun create a coronal mass ejection (solar flare) with the magnitude of the one in 1859 that cooked the telegraph network in the U.S. and elsewhere, we’ll find ourselves knocked right back to the Stone Age.”

YUP.., wasn’t there a solar flare a few years ago that fried some satellites? I recall that event had the potential to be a doosie. Good point though

It seems to me all this talk about gold price ranges and floors is rather pointless, and equates to nothing more than trying to predict future normalcy through looking solely at the one’s rear view mirror.

The world is a different place today and doesn’t fit into any model we’ve ever seen before.

The geopolitical risks and on going blast fires are extreme and getting worse.

It still amazes me that Egypt and Syria imploded.., and are still a mess.

Now we have –

Turkey insurrection
ISIS spreading like a wildfire and in control of vast stretches of Iraq
China building military bases to consume the Spratelys and western Pacific
Iran still working on a nuclear offensive capability, this time Israel will likely go at it alone where as Stuxnet failed
North Korea, in the not too distant future, the means of a long-range nuclear delivery vehicle
The list goes on…

Not intended to be a lot of doom and gloom to ruin a beautiful Friday.., but a reality check.

Want gold.., buy and dollar cost average while you can.., heck it may up 50% next week and market down 50%, who knows.., or vice versa

I sure know I hope that I’m wrong and Au just chugs along and doesn’t do anything more than trade within a 10% range, year after year.., peaceful coexistence is a big enough Win, Win for me!

ATB quarter sales slowing. Looks like the last issue of 2016 (Ft. Moultrie) will not hit the 1 million mark with the S mint quarter. I think the entire ATB program (both quarters and 5 oz pucks) is in trouble. Maybe they need to start making some in Carson City.

We will see strengthening for gold due to geopolitical tensions in the short term, but any large swing should countered by China’s actions which appear to be positive. However, the long term aspects for a larger swing in Au price is beginning to look more possible if the Federal Deficit is expanded. I don’t see how it can be avoided the way were going.
When looking at a historical chart for Au, I think there’s much to learn from examining the differences in levels before and after 1980. It’s because of those price differences that I feel we have a floor at or above $1,000. Simplistic, yes, but so is the heart of man.

@cagcrisp… I quit my collection of 5 oz. silver ATBs in OGP as of Jan. 2016. The 1st two ATBs of 2016 never made it to my house (both got lost in FEDEX DumbPost) Between that a returning a scratched 2016 gold Merc. I am firmly on the sidelines. Getting refunds from the Mint took several months for every instance. Life is much too short to repeatedly chase after & monitor the refunds.
I suspect the Mint will go with your option #2 as they have a current track record of doing that with precious metal items. As the ATB series winds down it would not surprise me to see the 2017 issues available well into 2018. They could goose sales if they were to lower the price by $10 to $20 but I rather doubt that will happen.

Anybody have any theories about why palladium prices have been shooting up?? Only thing I can think of is that the supply is so low that the mint getting ready to make coins for the first time is causing some tightening in the supply?? Either way I just sold most of my palladium, I bought in at about an average of 500 so whatever.

Platinum at least is a very well known metal. Palladium is nowhere’s near as popular as Platinum. To spend close to the price where Platinum is could be very very risky. JMO. What the helll do i know anyway??? 🙂

@ Ryan, I am thinking the same thing. It seems to me that every time there is a new roll out at the mint, said precious metal prices starts to surge. I also have a question about, why is platinum prices so low?

I think that “the market” believes we are at peak auto sales and that’s the justification for low platinum prices, also diesel autos are out since VW was caught cheating emissions and platinum is primarily used in diesel emissions systems. If everyone believes we are at peak autos then the palladium spike is strange, the only guess I have is the mint taking up slack in the supply and chartists putting it in a topping pattern, that’s why I sold out

@ Dustyroads – If you are trying to determine the floor for gold, you must consider the all-in, continuing cash cost of production. Well over $1,000/oz with a projected 10% year over year increase. This table is from five years ago:

I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but their is nothing to write home about, and budgets are tight. IE I have not seen any must haves since the Centennial Gold Coins, and groceries are more expensive.

So Krates – The floor can be breach, which is why two-thirds of silver production is not derived from primary silver mines, and is largely dependent on base metals. It is simply not profitable to mine silver at the current prices.

So Krates, Oh, I do agree with that. In fact, miners have been making more profits over production costs over the last several years according to data that I have seen. So, oil and gold have a close connection. If the OPEC countries as well as the WTI producers do actually cut production enough to have an influence on the present glut, we could see a move up for Au. And, although I don’t like the idea of higher fuel costs, I should also see a move up for my own commodities which I’m trying desperately to make a profit on. I’m very glad to hear that Trump has said he would step back from tinkering with NAFTA.

JARHEADnFLORIDA, When consumer spending is up, so will be the price of Platinum. Q1 2017 GDP is at a dismal 0.7%. That is bad for Pt price. If we can get to a sustained 3% GDP or above, we will see a stronger Pt. price due to investments into industry and higher consumer spending.

Just bought the Canadian mint Star Trek captains coin. Overpriced for sure but I’m a huge Star Trek fan. I also ordered through Canadapost so I also ordered the framed stamp sets for Picard, the signed Kirk and the standard sheet. The Picard and Kirk framed sets only have a production of 600, which I’m also a sucker for.

Well here it is April 28th and the USMINT Product Schedule still only list items up to May 17th.
Anyone have a guess when they will expand the product listing beyond May 17th. Perhaps May 15th LOL
I wonder what new secrets will end up being released and why there is so much secretes the US Mint has in store for us minions.

KCSO – Why hasn’t the mint updated the schedule? I wish they would put out the schedule for the rest of the year. I complain everytime I get a survey about this lack of planning. I don’t like this one month at a time schedule. I’d expect them to update the schedule sometime in the next few days. They must be taking a break in the schedule around Memorial Day.

I missed the Congrats ASE from the mint like many did. I want one since I collect ASE’s in particular. I checked APMEX and was tempted so I checked with the four dealers in my rotation.
Dealer A: Nationally known, has some heavy hitter numismatists on staff: they said wait. Its over priced and will fall. Also said paying a big premium for a 70 on a coin from the last 5-10 years is a waste of money.
Dealer B: Good guys, fair prices and have talked me out of dumb buying choices in past: Said wait and don’t bother paying premium for slabbed 70.
Dealer C: Small shop, deals more gold and cheap silver. Said, I can get one for you but you’ll pay a lot.
Dealer D: My last stop. these guys will sell anything as fast as they can. Said they would be happy to sell me one of the OGP’s at a big premium now. Get em while there hot. Act now.

So I’ve read that the 2017 ASE with “S” Mint Mark is expected to be included later this year in the Limited Edition Silver Proof Set (LESPS). It seems like the Mint is trying to shake things up in their 225th Anniversary Year, so I was wondering if there’s any chance, or if anyone has heard any rumors, that the ASE might actually be something different such as a Reverse Proof “S” or something like that?

@KCSO – I’m now waiting for the APE proof. I’m also curious whether or not they will get around to the Pd Merc. Budget wise if they release the next big ticket items later in the year it would be better. Last year they released the APE when I was on vacation so I had sit by the computer waiting for that one. I’d like to see the entire year schedule like they did a few years back so I can plan vacation time around some of the releases.

What So Krates just wrote leads me to believe that the 2017 S SAE’s have legs, perhaps even more than we have previously considered. What this indicates is that these are moving up through three levels of the food chain and you have to assume that each level will show more profit / price increase from the previous level.

@ Gary: Re: the 1859 Solar event known as the Carrington Event, I heard an interview a year ago with Dr. Peter Vincent Pry, Executive Director of the Congressional EMP Commission and author of the 2015 book Blackout Wars. The interview awakened me to a threat I never really gave any thought to previously. Since then, I met a man who had recently retired from the power company so I asked him if he was concerned about EMP’s. He got this alarmed look on his face and then he slowly replied, “not anymore, I’m retired.”

After listening to the interview, I wondered if what Dr. Pry discussed about the 1859 event was true as I hadn’t hear of it previously. I have a subscription to GenealogyBank, a digital historic newspaper archives, so I did searches in it for stories on the solar event in 1859. I had no problem finding articles written about it including reports of people seeing the “Northern lights” as far south as Louisiana and reports of 2 telegraph operators in Boston and Portland, Maine communicating over the telegraph despite having disconnected their batteries, the energy from the EMP was strong enough to power their system. I also found reports later in the year where a science group in Washington put out a request for scientists to report their observations of the event to them so they could try to understand what had happened.

“DBR, You Should have waited. That’s way too high a price for a graded 70…”

And @ coinmark

Both state that buying a 2017-S ASE now either slabbed from a TPG or in OGP from a secondary marketeer is too high and pricey.

I agree. I wanted to buy it at mint’s issue price too, but people in Hell want ice water. I can easily see me getting shut out again when the LESPS emerges with no HHL.

I could’ve waited I guess, and trust me I debated about it. Not sure how far this coin’s legs is going to carry her but now I’m along for the ride.

Either way that’s what so neat about market forces -either visible or invisible- the market bears what it can. It seems some prices just stick and remain. Sort of like the Truman Coin & Chronicles Set (it is still holding steady as a key coin in that series). Same mintage but the Eisenhower set doesn’t enjoy same price or perceived value point as its cousin in the Truman set.

Contributors to MNB have explained the price differential but still the demand felt in the markets seem to set the prices and the coin community sustains the reputations of these coins based on popularity and collector interest.

Bottom line for me: 1) I didn’t want the price of the 2017-S ASE to continue to increase versus decreasing instead (I think the very existence of this S variety stunned everyone in the hobby and lots of collectors are just finding out about it); and 2) while the mint isn’t going to charge $249 for the LESPS later this year, I still worried that I’d get shut out again. My work schedule simply doesn’t permit me to stop my entire day to order a coin in two minutes.

True story: I was shut out on April 5th because a co-worker came to me at 8:45am PDT and talked my ear off. It was a serious concern. I bid him adieu at 9:00am and by the time I logged in and tried to execute a purchase, it was sold out. My luck really is that bad and my schedule is that unpredictable.

The hype gets us all worked up, we decide to buy, and then we try to order and get shut out in the frenzy. It’s not a pleasant experience I can assure you. Exhilarating but not pleasant, very frustrating.

If the mint artificially increases the usual mintage for its LESPS and skews the numbers of this coin upwards to prevent it from being a rarity then that will be the final indignity to my trying to be part of this acquisition/transaction/investment. Whatever one’s motivation to purchase a Congratulations Set of ALL THINGS in 2017!

Think we’re out of luck Brother.., this is all we gonna get (if accurate),

“Historically, May tends to be one of the slowest months of the year for United States Mint product releases. May 2017 looks to be no different with just three scheduled to launch.” – CN

If I missed out on the ASE ‘S’ I’d just wait another 2-3 weeks when the flood gates open as the last shipment is received and the retailers dump their slabs, with less than 1,00 orders placed consuming 75,000 orders, it’s gonna be a dump and run.

Still can’t be it was less than 1,000 orders.., the mint really screwed collectors with that move

I have a full set of American Silver Eagle bullion coins. I have been reluctant to collect any of the Uncirculated or Proof coins because I dont’ see any value in doing so. I am not interested in spending lots of money on coins and have them “sit” if I don’ want them.

What do you think? Are the proof and uncirculated ASE coins worth buying and collecting?

CC – I bought into the 2013 UNC ASE when it was the newest low.., & they’re sitting,

Want one? Or two?

How about some ’13 AUDCS.., special one time low price.., spot x 3? 🙂

I thought the 2016 W PRF may have some legs if it went CU around 500,000 to 525,000..,

Though just like the Energizer 🐰, it just keeps on going and going.., USM must have shot for 600,000+ struck.., probably went strong on the 2016 UNC as well. 2017 W could get interesting though.., TWT.

Probably better off collecting a few shares of some medical devices or pharma ETF shares and let them sit around and collect dust though, IMHO.

cagcrisp, The unknown mintage and HHL of the LESPS may be holding the 2017-S in limbo for the time being.
This is an unusual situation for us. I’m just thinking that we can’t have any type of accurate assessment until we have that info. So don’t short just yet.

@ Coin Collector, that is the reason why I am tired of the silver eagles. IMO the only reason this old design keeps going on, is dealers know that some people want to keep their collection intact. Like cagcrisp said demographics matter, my daughter only collects coins with animals on them. This is why I have expanded my collection out of the US Mint. The only thing I want from the mint this year, is the fractional buff.

@ Yes But…You Can’t Take It With You – I actually interpreted the comments I heard when selling the S ASEs as the opposite. Got the impression the dealers were anxious to get them sold because they don’t want a hot potato. The uncertainty surrounding the LESPS (contents, price, mintage, and HHL) shook those sets right out of my weak hands.

Odds are that the LESPS will have a mintage of 50K or maybe even 75k which will keep the 2011 RP & Burnished S the low mintage ASEs.

I bought 15 sets of the 2011. The first week, half were sold with a 3.5x gain. A few months later I sold a few more at 2.5x gain. Now 6 years later I might get a 1.75x gain. IMO, the 2017 “S” will eventually drop to around $80-$100 (even if silver goes back to $35-$50)

I will try to buy the LESPS since I missed the first opportunity but if I miss out again then I will wait for the price drop. Short the “S”.

@gatortreke… The reason I brought up the Carrington event of 1859 was to highlight just how vulnerable the digital age is to the threat of a powerful solar flare and severe electromagnetic disturbance of digital data transfer AND to magnetically stored digital archives. This would have an enormous impact on a digital “cashless” society. In my opinion it would be prudent to maintain a supply of traditional fiat currencies if for no other reason than for an emergency reserve.

It is often asserted here that the coin hobby is shrinking because of aging demographics, but in reality the hobby as a whole is changing more than dying. Parts of it are certainly shrinking like the segment that can afford high-end purchases, but the ranks of more casual collectors seem to be growing. Or take coin shops, which have declined in recent decades, but the number of coin dealers stands at around 5,000 today (established companies). Or U.S. Mint sales may be down, but bullion sales and the rare coin market as a whole remains very strong with a company like Heritage alone selling a half a billion bucks worth of coins a year and at least 10 others selling over $100 million each annually (according to the president of the ANA). Or coin show attendance is down, but online coin sales are up.

Then there is the world scene. Did you know the German coin market is larger than the American one, and before long the Chinese one will likely be the biggest. And many of those foreign collectors also collect US coins including silver eagles. It is true the US market is soft and it is much harder to make a buck for small-timers, but don’t forget that true collectors buy what they like and don’t always worry about what each piece will be worth in the future.

No, but they buy some of the coins simply because they like them and don’t look at every purchase as an investment. For example, I collect 2 euro commemoratives, which with some exceptions cost between $5-10 each.

@Gary Not Dave , “Yeah, made to order..that will be great for the coin hobby..flood the market with every offering. That way ALL the coins we buy will be worth half or less than what we paid for them. Smart!

Pretty sure that will be the bullet to the head of a lot of Coin Collectors. We think we don’t have enough collectors in the hobby now. Just wait until the Mint starts making everything to order.”

Agree. Agree. Agree…

Currently I see 271 Mint offerings. There has been ONE mint offering this year that has Sold Out in Rapid order vs. being arbitrarily pulled by the Mint.

Nobody screams about the 270 offerings that go Begging for whatever reason. All concentrated efforts are on the ONE item that Sold Out in rapid fashion and the Reason it is So sought after NOW, is because of the secondary market pricing.

IF there had been a HHL of 1 for the “S” the secondary market wouldn’t even be CLOSE to the artificially inflated prices that you are Currently seeing.

Yep…”Collectors” would have their 1 and secondary prices would reflect that very fact…

I would think most collectors enjoy the chase. If they just do everything made to order, that pretty much ends the chase and pretty much kills the modern coin collectors. IMHO

But, if I can pull out a positive of the future of “made to order”, although I am saddened by the loss of modern coin collecting, It will drive up prices on vintage coins.

@cagcrisp
Out of the 271 offerings…I wonder why it would be so hard to cap just a few items a year? And some items don’t have to be real low mintages…Example..cap the mintage on the SIlver Proof Set at 200k.

@Louis G and all……look at the total mintages of the SIlver Proof Sets Since 1999…..even that products is dying. That’s just an example.

And on another note…I am curious to why the US Mint hasn’t figured out when they release a low mintage item just do a 1 per household?

Also, little bit about me…I am a nobody…just a collector on a budget..i don’t work in the coin industry. I collect modern and vintage. I do flip some items on occasion. I enjoy the highs and lows of the chase…whether that’s at a coin auction or ebay or trying to get through on the US website. Although I do have a small claim to fame. I made it on the cover of Numismatic News standing in line freezing my butt off in Springfield for the first set of 5 ounce pucks! Ha..Good Times!

Louis, It felt good reading your statement. I’ve tried to say the same thing, but wonder if anyone really wants to read anything that I had to say, even if it is on a positive note. It seems obvious to me that the coin hobby is in transition. Why it’s in transition is probably what gets most people hung up though. It’s easy to simply say that people are getting older and have left the hobby, but there’s a much larger factor still. I’ve mentioned a “rethinking” of the hobby before, which is why I have from time to time mentioned a “floor” for PM’s. I am even beginning to be ridiculed for thinking there is a possible place. I don’t know what needs to be said to better express that there needs to be an acceptable price for gold in the minds of collectors. Eventually people will come around to believing a certain price is not too high, but I just don’t think we’re there yet. However, I do think we’re very close. Or maybe I’m just just full of it, in which case everyone can go back to whatever you were doing before opening your browsers. Gary Not Dave and I will hang out and be nobodies together. Peace ya’ll, or 안녕

I also agree that mint to demand will kill the hobby of future products.
How about any “high-demand” product below a 50,000 mintage have a HHL of one.
50,000-75,000 two, 75,000-100,000 three. 100,000 or more no limit.
The mint should be well aware of a product that will be in high demand…they’ve proven it this year with the 2017 Congratulations set and the 2017 225th Anniversary High Relief…hehehehehe
😉
Ok, joking aside. There will always be winners and losers. I’ve lost money, I’ve made money. I got shut out of some sales, I’ve made good purchases. I collect, I invest.
Overall, I enjoy this HOBBY. I’ve been COLLECTING since 1994 and plan on COLLECTING for another 10 years…at least. I found this blog about 3 years ago and LOVE the comments, sour or positive. Without this blog, I would’ve missed out on around $4,000+ profit from the purchases I made that I would not even considered puchasing…ie Coin and Chronicles containing the reverse proof dollars, ANY SILVER EAGLE PRODUCT, because I sold my entire collection when silver hit $40 on the way down from $49 in 2011, and the 50th Ann Kennedy 4-pc set(I found 7 of the rare DMPL out of 55 sets).
So, HHL or not, I will buy what I like. If the mint produces coins “made to order”, I’ll hunt the low mintage, but I doubt I’ll buy from the mint because there won’t be a demand. The people who do buy from the mint will more than likely be selling the same offering on FEEBAY for less 🙂

@ Joe M – on the silver Kennedys, are you referring to the Enhanced coin in DMPL? Did you submit yours? which TPG? Any advice? .I think I might have one. For a while now I’ve been setting all my possible PL coins aside for attribution but in my limited submission experience I have never requested it before. They don’t do it automatically, do they? I have a few ’89 ASEs that look PL and some 95 AGEs, too Thanks.

Mike the Greek, cagcrisp who first mentioned shorting the 2017-S used it in a way that would suggest the coin has become a traded commodity, somewhat like a stock, but with the belief the value will most certainly be headed down. Shorting a particular stock is only considered when the stock is losing value. When the stock eventually comes out of it’s fall, covering the short prevents the buyer from losing money. Hope this helps.

The blog is made up of seriouos collectors and PM investors. I’d argue this is not your average collector. A lot of folks just want proof/mint sets &/or Eagles, maybe commemoratives and circulation coins. Maybe you guys don’t consider them collectors, but that was me for about 50 years. The thought of collecting as an investment never occured to me when I started collecting, and for the most part I still don’t think about that (except you can’t get away from it here). I just wanted to fill the holes in my Whitman books. Remember the fun of those days?!

And speaking of filling holes, was an exciting day at Xena’s house yesterday! My LCS had an 1892O Barber half and gave me a great deal on it. Last one! The partial set my Dad left me is now complete. Not sure if he’d be glad about that or shocked that I would pay that much for one coin. Probably both, I admit I have trouble spending that much ($200) on a single coin. I will donate some extra money this month so I feel less guilty about my first world problems…

Xena- Congrats on the Barber set. You were a true collector back then and you are still one now.

See, I am not hung up on who is a collector, an investor, or whatever. And I have read that the greatest collectors of all time like Louis Eliasberg never gave a thought to future value when putting together their collections, which I realize would be impossible today.

Xena, You’re a great guy, I can tell by your comments. In fact, when I see your name before a comment, I know I’m going to enjoy reading it.
I hope I didn’t press too hard here. I do tend to focus on some of the more expensive coins the USM releases. I am interested in a few bread and butter pieces, of which I don’t consider investments at all, but absolutely consider the value factor when planning a high dollar purchase. Am I a precious metals investor? NO, but I will avoid loosing money if I can when buying gold or silver.
My earlier point was meant to address those collectors who at one time would buy the silver proof sets, or gold commemoratives, but who are still saying no to high prices until they come down. I contend that prices are close to as cheap as they will ever be going forward. When it’s finally taken for granted that this is for real, I believe a base can begin to build in and a new normal form, if there is going to ever be one.

@ So Krates
I submitted them to PCGS without the request for the DMPL. I didn’t even know(at the time of submission) that they existed. I bought 55 sets, took the top 30 of each Kennedy that I felt had a chance at 70, and submitted them to Bulk. Seven of the 2014-s came back MS69DMPL( I wish I would’ve got a 70. Saw one sell for $3,000+).
Here is an item # on Ebay…It’s not mine.
2014 S Enhanced Kennedy Silver half dollar PCGS MS69 DMPL Item #181718926994

I guess I am at a loss of what a true collector is…What I gather here from our True Collectors is:
A true collector buys a coin because he just likes it not because its an investment and doesn’t concern themselves about any potential the coin might have. I would surmise true collectors have a lot of disposable income. I would also be a true collector if money wasn’t an issue.

We will call these guys the “true collectors”

What I do as a collector is try to buy and sell coins to collect what I like, I try to build my collection without spending my money..ie. flipping. No..i am not always successful but I sure enjoy trying.

For those wondering if you might have one of the RARE 2014s Enhanced Silver in DMPL instead of the normal PL, both sides have to have the nice “dark” look to it instead of the “light”, sandy appearance. I had several that die pairs would not allow for the DMPL because one side wasn’t “dark” enough.
The “dark” appearance is the die that is more like the regular DCam proofs, instead of the “light”, almost SP(satin) look.
DMPL is Deep Mirror Proof-Like
PL is Proof-like
PR or PF is for Proof

Re: the changing nature of the coin hobby, I’ve been working on my now 11 year old daughter to get her interested in the coin collection. She’s been pretty much uninterested except for one series, the 1 oz (now 30g) China Panda series. She likes the changing Panda design. She also likes the colorized Olaf coin from the movie Frozen put out by the New Zealand Mint for Niue. That’s been it. However, today I pulled out my 3 coin Canadian colorized set featuring the aircraft of WWI. I told her I was thinking of selling it and she told me not to, that she likes it. Perhaps a little glimmer of hope in her yet but this also illustrates that her interests are not the traditional interests.

To Xena, I haven’t purchased the new Star Trek 5 captains coin even though I’m a pretty big Star Trek fan. I do have a number of the Tuvalu 1 oz RP 50th anniversary USS-Enterprise coins plus the original Tuvalu colorized USS Enterprise coins minus the fancy transporter holder A lot of the others have been designs that havent’ really appealed to me that much. I debated the delta coin but budgetary issues at the time kept me away from it.

I also read cag’s comments about shorting the coin and wondered to myself, how can you possibly to that. I understand the mechanics of shorting stocks but an actual coin,, that’s another matter. I finally decided he was speaking figuratively.

@ Gary Not Dave
You’re welcome. I hope you have one…or more 🙂
I sold 6 and only have one left. I averaged about $240 for the six($295 for the high and $195 for the low), but the one listed is much higher. Maybe I should’ve held a little longer 🙁

Somehow coin collecting skipped a generation in our family. I got the bug from my grandfather who was born in 1895. He left 8,200 coins to my Dad in 1978. Dad never looked at them and gave them to me in 2010 on Christmas Day.

A true collector leaves more coins for his or her survivors to enjoy than they ever sold.

A true collector picks up a coin in the parking lot no matter how dirty it looks.

A true collector usually can tell a story about when and where they acquired all the key date coins in their collection.

A true collector will feel his pulse increase when he spots coin books at a garage sale.

A true collector will look over the change in her pocket; twice, just to be sure she did not miss that elusive Buffalo nickel roaming through commerce.

I have two of the 2017 Congratulations S Silver Eagles. Very nice. Had to write something to be near topic.

Great list of truisms Jay. I enjoy loitering in LCSs, to talk coins of course, but also to see coin collections being un-closeted by heirs. Some seeking information, some looking to liquidate. It’s fascinating to see the way the collections were stored and the methods devised for display. I imagine the joy that was felt as some of the better holes were filled and the hunt that it used to take to acquire them.

As to the essence of the current discussion of acquiring moderns, I feel that if you consider your collection to be a coin collection, then you are a collector. If you consider them to be inventory, then you are a dealer/investor/flipper. Many here appear to consider themselves a bit of both.

Well silly me, I figured that since it is May 1st, the USM would add to the product release schedule.
Here it is 11am on Monday the 1st and we still only have items listed up to May 17th.
What else is new.
How can collectors plan what they are going to need to spend in the upcoming month or two.

@Louis Golino, Author , The demographic that I refer to is not only an aging demographic. It’s a Financial demographic.

Study after study show that a Current 40 year old’s will Not have the disposable income their parents did. This is a trend that has been going on for years. Year after year, 40 year olds are Not financially as well off as their parents.

69% of Americans have Less than $1,000 in Savings. The Millennials being the worst. Seniors (65+) by contrast show that 23% have Over $10,000 in Savings and even Seniors show that 62% have Less than $1,000 in Savings…

The Live Chat on the Mint site seems to work well. A live chat screen popped up so I decided to use it. Here is my conversation asking about the upcoming schedule:

Thank you for shopping with the United States Mint! Is there anything I can assist you with?
‎
12‎:‎53‎ ‎PM
Visitor
When will the schedule be updated? It should provide a yearly schedule instead of just a few weeks ahead in time. It is hard to budget purchases and plan vacation time when you don’t know when items will be released.
‎
12‎:‎53‎ ‎PM
Rachel K.
I’ll be happy to answer your product question.
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12‎:‎53‎ ‎PM
Rachel K.
Sadly, we do not have any additional information other than what is released on the product schedule.
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12‎:‎53‎ ‎PM
Rachel K.
We also were not told why they decided to release the schedule one month at a time instead of yearly.
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12‎:‎53‎ ‎PM
Visitor
Thanks.
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12‎:‎54‎ ‎PM
Rachel K.
I apologize for the inconvenience this has caused you.
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12‎:‎54‎ ‎PM
Rachel K.
It’s my pleasure! Is there anything else I can assist you with today?
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12‎:‎54‎ ‎PM
Visitor
Will the update for June be up any time soon?
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12‎:‎56‎ ‎PM
Rachel K.
We do not have information on when exactly it will be updated, it should be updated at some point before June. My apologies.
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12‎:‎56‎ ‎PM
Visitor
Thank you for the information.
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12‎:‎56‎ ‎PM
Rachel K.
Thank you for shopping with the United States Mint, we’re happy to assist you today and in the future. For additional information on our products please visit our website at http://www.catalog.usmint.gov. Should you need further assistance from the United States Mint, please feel free to contact us at 1-800-USA-MINT (872-6468). For your convenience, we are available seven days a week between the hours of 8:00 A.M. and 12 midnight, Eastern Standard Time.
The operator has ended the chat. Thanks for contacting us.

My son 12 yr old wants to collect coins – he’s wired for it. He went so far as to save up money to buy a beat up old wooden Gerstner chest, restored it himself with the goal of putting interesting coins in all those little drawers. He found some stuff on his limited budget and spends time on PCGS and the US Mint looking up stuff but the latest Congrats thing turned him off. He tried to get one while he was home “sick” at his moms house (I doubt he was really sick). He didn’t get one given how fast things moved. I didn’t either but that was my error. He said he was done with “official” coin collecting. US Mint turned him off.

I asked him what it would take to get into and stay into it.
His wish: “sneak in enough coins into circ that they are different/interesting/unusual but affordable and findable with hard work – regularly. And…if the Mint offers something cool make it so kids have a chance to get them instead of the websites who buy them all up & charge crazy money. I can’t disagree with his wish.

Nice article Louis. It inspires a few thoughts.
The focus seems to have changed from digging into the coins and history to making a buck from a macro standpoint. That shift moves the center from one group to another. Are the profit driven folks “collectors” or merely day traders? I don’t have the research facts but maybe more coins are being acquired today than back in the collecting heyday but it seems to be not for collection/curation. Over generalization here but that means the spirt of the coin is heading to meaningless-ness. Except for the shrinking number of collectors who really care.

How important really are collectors to the US Mint? Despite the rhetoric, it seems like collecting is a small side benefit to make extra money to the Mint. I get that their primary job is to make currency and its a government institution. Does anyone have numbers on how important or not real collectors really are to the mint beyond the PR?

Third thought is around the future and kids. There’s a lot a kids can spend their time and money on. So to capture their interest we need something at scale and special to kids. I’ve taken my son to Coin shows and they always have a kid thing there and he’s participated but as he said after the last one – “I think this was a lot more fun for the adults than the kids, it was what an adult thought would be fun for kids, not what a kid thinks would be fun for kids.” Kids still collect things at a furious pace and spend a lot of money on it. Just not coins. Share of wallet has shrunk. Imagine if coins got just 5% of what Kids spend on collecting stuff? Resurgence down the road? I don’t have the solve but the USMint could help a lot if they really wanted to re-energize coin collecting for the future Gen (and make even more money)

@ CoinMark: I have a friend who has been working hard to nurture his 8 year old son in numismatics who has shown lots of interest to date. This is the 2nd year his son has exhibited at a large coin show in the southeast. The feedback from the judging and comments with the judges has been disappointing to say the least as there appears to be a disconnect between what the judges find interesting and worthy of awards versus what kids (and the public?) find so. I don’t have time to detail right now but my friend is concerned that the experiences will drive his son out of the hobby rather than fan the flame. I can sympathize! I’ll write a more detailed description later when I have time.

In that article I thought the point about new collectors no longer being kids was imp., and it ties in with bullion. There may be a big surge in bullion when the debt surges and bullion prices surge, and some of those bullion buyers will become collectors.

The main reason I brought all this up is that I don’t see the base for ASE collectors decreasing as was suggested a couple days ago here. That is a different argument from how the 17-S will do.

@gatortreke for kid that went so far as to exhibit and the commit it took to get that far – its sad story.

I found this from an article on the guy they were considering to fill the US Mint Direct job. He was questioned in a senate hearing committee. He didnt get the job and resigned when Trump come into office as is usual when a new President comes in.

Shelby asked Jeppson about the future of the U.S. Mint and coins. Jeppson said the U.S. Mint expects to produce and supply the Federal Reserve with 15 billion coins over the next 12 months for circulation. Jeppson said a recent decline in numismatic sales is attributable to a drop in disposable income and a change in customer demographics. Jeppson said the Mint has extended its outreach to broaden its customer base.

I agree with the change in demo – i.e. Younger folks not into it as much. But I call malarky on the disposable income part. Speculating here but US Mint-sold-coin-disposable income is needed for Gold and Plat coins. Silver not nearly as much. And modern circ coins? No. So the priority is Gold then? Unless when Mint charges big premiums for Silver coins, then its less about disposable income and more about spending disposable income on over-priced coins. $ goes elsewhere. Do something truly interesting with the approachable circ/uncirc coins.

“Extended its outreach to broaden its base”?? Ya mean, no HH limit to snag more flippers?

Louis says: “There may be a big surge in bullion when the debt surges”

There is way too much Volatility in PM’s to NOT think that there would be a surge in prices. Metals are still very attractive safe haven assets, much more now than they were back in the years from the late eighties to 2003 when we moved our forces into Iraq. During those years, gold was so dormant, it didn’t seem to ever mover very much up or down. Today is different. It takes very little for it to rise. There can be some good results from expanding the budget, such as a cheaper USD, but it has ended badly in the past and Trump is trying to prevent that from happening again. We will see if these coming investments will pay off. It doesn’t hurt to be aware…and prepared, so I think we’re on the right track, and being collectors at the same time is fun. Lord knows I can use the fun in my life.

@ Louis: You make a good point about what’s driving new collectors into the market and how we need to rethink what is happening in the hobby. The linked Schwager article does make me rethink things. I think it is sometimes difficult to see the change that is taking place around us while we are living through it.

Based on the article, I’d have to classify myself as a member of the Class of 2011. I was born in the last year silver circulated so I was not raised with chasing circulation finds. My dad is first generation U.S. so I haven’t been exposed to any type of historic family coin collection. I actually was attracted to the hobby in 1999 when a coworker told me I could buy the Mint;s proof and silver proof offerings and sell them to a local coin dealer for a profit. I was skeptical but I followed his advice and bought the limited number of sets I could buy and did exactly as he described, sold all but one of each, making enough to keep one set for free. It wasn’t a lot but it intrigued me and here I am today, still collecting. How many collectors today can trace their start to the 50 state quarter program. Clearly, I am one of those collectors.

gatortreke, Life just keeps getting better doesn’t it! I am a `63’er. But that didn’t stop me from looking for silver in the early seventies. My mom was an Office Education Association (OEA) teacher at the local high school. On basketball nights she would let my siblings and I look though the change she brought home from the games. There was always something to be found.

I didn’t count the coins my Dad left us, but maybe I’ll estimate how many were in the 30 binders. He had a few nice sets like the Barber halves and an almost compete Morgan set (that went to my brother), but most of his coins were foreign coins, many of which he bought by the pound and sorted. He loved getting foreign coins left over after friends traveled. He was also an avid stamp collector but gave that up before they retired to Florida. Now there’s a dying hobby.

RSF – I also look at what folks are bringing into my LCS. Some interesting conversations.

Cag – re disposable income, I worry about that also. Was talking to my son about college costs and trying to avoid debt. Going to be hard to get him through without some, but I am doing my best to keep it to a minimum. Considering how far in the hole some kids are when they start out, and how expensive things are – at least around here, I don’t understand how young folks are making it.

Buying the old 90% coins at say 13 times spot is a good economics lesson and may spark some interest.. Dad / Mom why did you pay $ 130.00 for $ 10.00 worth of coins. ? They look the same as the ones today. Well let me explain …………………..

gatortreke – GovMint just recently put the silver Delta on sale. I love the Pandas also, and there’s a bunch of Canadian coins I’ll bet your daughter would like. The 1967 series is one of my favorites. Have to watch out for the RCM though, they put out way too much.

I have been a previous mint buyer up until the joke of the reverse proof Presidential CC sets. I was buying the ATB P pucks since day one until 2016. Did the circus coins and all that joke.

I did OK flipping the Truman CC and Ike’s. That was the end of my mint buying.

Since then I have been dumping most of my modern mint stuff on the bay trying to get back my original investment. Some things are a money producer’s at times. I find it astonishing that my graded / labeled modern stuff is still selling for a premium.

I now only invest in bullion, be it silver or gold, and stick with bars, rounds, and avoid the mint collectors junk for the suckers. I’ll buy a Swiss 1 oz .9999 gold bar for $10 to $20 over spot rather than $300 to $400 for a mint modern collector coin in a wooden box with a mint mark.

Just to spice things up, I want the U.S. Mint to cancel the release of the 2017 LESPS because of the same reasons they canceled it in 2015: packaging. I have the 2016 LESPS and the packaging isn’t anything to write home about.

It’s high time the mint puts the “limited” back into the LESPS and makes this set truly special again.

I have the 2014 LESPS and the 2016 LESPS and there is not that much difference in the packaging. To me, there is more accessibility to the actual coins in the 2016 set with removable coins in their capsules. Plus there are some aesthetic and cosmetic changes to the packaging’s look and feel.

The LESPS should be a premier offering each year with pizazz and very desirable and collector quality coins inside. All in silver of course.

What that looks like going forward is anyone’s guess, but we need a year off from the LESPS in order to figure that out.

In this way too the 2017-S ASE from the Congratulations Set becomes the darling of the year and sets off a buying frenzy again!

Is/are there supplier(s) of 56-quarter coin tubes for the Statehood and the America the Beautiful quarter sets? I’d thought that I’d seen them years ago for the Statehood quarters, but cannot find a supplier now.

I think people had gotten excited about the prospects of precious metals in the recent past but it has become quite obvious that there’s something more going on here. People are walking away from the metals because there is no longer any possible positive or beneficial expectations. The government and corporations are c*ck blocking any desirable reaction that could develop for precious metals. I tell people do NOT dare touch anything precious metals related!!! as far as the US Mint goes, I hope they collapse under their own weight. They’re already lying and have been getting metal from elsewhere which is illegal, not to mention silver eagles are supposed to be made available to the public at all times to satisfy demand they failed there too!

Well, just because they make so many does not mean you need them all, right? I am collecting the 2 oz. silver and 1/4 oz. gold and 1 oz. proofs, but I also made an exception for the 10 oz. lion given the bullion price ($197 at JM) and first of that size. The plats seem like a good deal too esp. with a lower premium than APE bullion, but I am not a high roller like KSCO!

Now if the RM would release some mintage data, that would help. But they have a policy now of not giving out anything except for those like the proofs with set mintages.

Louis, No, I don’t like the over produced issues. I did start collecting the 2 oz. Beasts for evident reasons, along with the 1/4 oz gold, but that’s where I draw the line. I didn’t like seeing the extra strikes come onto the market, and they are STILL coming. If I see more of these, I guess I may rethink this series, but so far I’m good.

BTW Louis, back to an earlier comment you wrote, the Congrats “S” stands at number 2. Please explain this to me. Are you grouping it in with the 2011 RP? Otherwise, there are no lower “S” proofs that I’m aware of.

Jeremy, I’m stacking silver and gold and platinum, buying more every year because the financial mess is going to hit the fan some day, and if I don’t make out well, my kids will. People also said gold was a loser in the 1990s, but I bought at $300, and am still smiling.

@Dusty – The Congrats Eagle is the 2nd lowest Regular Proof Silver Eagle behind the 1995 W. It will most likely be the 5th lowest of all Silver Eagle Types. (Louis, please correct any errors if you see them)

Sharks info is right, and for me the thing to stress is that 1) even if they up the LESPS mintage quite a bit, there is such a gap until you would equal #6, that I doubt the number will change at least based on what we know now and 2) ASE series is the most popular modern one, and one that has foreign demand too.

They would have to triple the LESPS mintage to surpass #6 and given the high price point, that seems unlikely. Now there might be a burnished in coming years that is lower, but not a proof unless they throw another curve ball at some point.

Based on this, I think something like $125 raw and $200 for 70 longer-term makes sense and maybe higher depending on what happens in the coming years.

Sharks,
Thanks for taking the time to compile the low mintage list of the “collector” ASE’s. It’s a handy reference guide. That #1 will always remain elusive, especially since it was included in the ’95 ASE gold set. I’m pretty sure that the vast majority of these sets remain intact, essentially keeping the ’95 W ASE silver proof off the market.

@ Louis: Though I’m a fan of the Queen’s Beasts designs and currently am collecting the 2 oz BU Silver , I do believe they are becoming overexposed. Is there any size or composition they haven’t appeared on yet?

NOW…I’ve said before that I think 2016 was an exceptional year for Gold from the US Mint, however, these 2017 numbers don’t even come Close to sales for a comparable number of weeks for any of the past few years.

Lower and Lower Mintages for numismatic Gold…Not a recipe for Financial success…

I would look for More and More Gimmicks out of the Mint for the remainder of the year.

They’ve got numbers to make and we all know the Man in Charge want’s to make America Great Again…

The mint’s flip flop o’rama on the 17-s Proof ASE is bizarre as set forth above. wtf is going on @ the mint, do they have a clue.? Apparently not. I will wait for the price to fall, as it will. As to the BT gold….a Priest and a Nun walk into a bar on a Friday, the bartenders asks the Priest, what kind of meat can ytou eat on Friday? He says: None….anyway 2 commems for charities & not events, or history are Ltd. in their appeal, which based on the mint’s conduct & actions appears to be their business plan–> Ltd. plan, as they \have none….or nun, you pick!!

I like the fact that she came from the private sector and ran air ops, she’ll expect results. And this administration will expect results from here.

Cag, you might just get your change you (we) seek, we’ll see if mint communication and engagement improves within the next 8 months.
.……………

President Trump names Jovita Carranza as 44th United States treasurer

By Paul Gilkes , Coin World

President Trump appointed Jovita Carranza as the 44th Treasurer of the United States. The appointment does not require Senate approval.
Image courtesy of Wikipedia Creative Commons.

Former U.S. Small Business Administration executive Jovita Carranza was appointed April 28 by President Trump to serve as the 44th treasurer of the United States.

The presidential appointment does not require Senate approval. Carranza is the seventh Latina to hold the office. All U.S. treasurers since 1949 have been women.

The Presidential Appointment Efficiency and Streamlining Act of 2011 — Public Law 112-166 , signed into law on Aug. 10, 2012, by President Obama — eliminates the requirement of Senate approval for 163 positions, including treasurer of the United States, allowing the president alone to appoint persons to these positions.

Carranza fills the vacancy created by the resignation of President Obama’s appointee, Rosa “Rosie” Gumataotao Rios, who served as the 43th U.S. treasurer from July 28, 2009, through July 8, 2016. Rios was the last U.S. treasurer whose appointment required a vote of the full Senate.

Previous to her presidential appointment, Carranza, a native of Chicago, served as president and chief executive officer of the JCR Group, a consulting firm working with global corporations and nonprofits worldwide with a focus on business development, profit and loss management, operations, logistics and systems optimization.

Carranza served the George W. Bush administration from December 2006 to January 2009 as deputy director of the of the U.S. Small Business Administration. She joined the government from her position as vice president of air operations for United Parcel Service in Louisville, Ky.

Numismatic Bookie tackles how an 1804 dollar appeared before coin was struck’Numismatic Bookie’ tackles how an 1804 dollar appeared in a Budapest book before any were struck: Inside Coin World: This week, we find an 1804 dollar in a book two years before any of the coins were struck, a reader questions

Carranza was a member of President Trump’s National Hispanic Advisory Council during the presidential campaign and met with the president in December about a position in his administration.

Treasury and White House officials have not disclosed when Carranza is expected to assume her treasurer’s responsibilities, which includes oversight of the U.S. Mint and the Bureau of Engraving and Printing.

Once Carranza assumes office, provisions will be made for Carranza’s facsimile signature to join that of President Trump’s Treasury secretary appointee, Steven Mnuchin, on United States paper money.

“KCSO says- Queen Xena”… LOL! I do love Crowns and Sovereigns! And yes, I have been eyeing that 10 oz.

Louis – I was wondering that same thing. I love the QB designs, but wondering if they are going to wear it out with all the different offerings. On the other hand, they are making them at different price points, metals and finished – I think they should be able to make it work.

Dusty – I was also looking at that 1 mm. Considering the size of the Pucks, there’s no way this could be that thin.

I am already collecting 2 oz and am going to try to get the whole series in 1/4 oz. So not sure I am going to be able to go for the whole series in 10 oz. But I am going to buy this first one and see how it looks.

Hey, my 5 oz P Puck shipped today. No post about Pucks? Does no one care about Pucks anymore? I remember the frenzy when the 2010s came out and you could only order one set from each dealer, and the Mint made them lower the price, and APMEX had to refund $500 to each customer who bought them.

sharks2th – thanks for the numbers. Need to copy those into a file somewhere…

KSCO – someone posted here a little bit ago that the Douglass quarter is being called the Bob Ross. Got a good laugh out of that. Not sure how he did it, but he’s still popular today – kids today who he is from youtube. But no, I didn’t buy a Bob Ross puck.

jp – I haven’t seen that but I’ll keep an eye out. I could use a few of those – would help the Scouts that collect quarters. In addition to Wizard, I shop here: http://www.chiefcoinandsupply.com for good prices on albums – particularly used world coin albums.

@KCSO – There are at least a half dozen of us here who are doing the P and the MS69DMPL pucks. I’m waiting until I order other items to pick them up. Some of the others here may be doing the same thing. I didn’t get the Effigy P until I ordered the congrats set so my purchase was in there the week it was +10.

Aydin has been running some of the 2016 DMPLs on true auctions the last week or so on the bay. APMEX seems to be having the best presale prices on the DMPLs so far in 2017. MCM has been a little high on their initial prices on the DMPLs so far this year.

@Xena – I have a list of all of the ASE mintages. The only one I had wrong was the 08/07Rev and Louis passed on the number which came out of a FOIA request. I can post the entire list later if you want. There are also a few websites that have a list of the mintages.

@ So Krates – The mintages past the first half dozen are not critical, but I just wanted to list the 10 to show the variances in the mintages. All of the proofs past the lowest 10 are over 500k. Generally your key coins in a series are determined by how difficult it is to obtain them or how high the demand is for each date/mint mark of the series. The distribution can also be a factor in the selling prices. If most of the key coins are in strong hands (long term collectors), then the supply will be tight and the prices higher.

Thoughts about Cagcrisp’s 17RF short paper trade manifested themselves in the material world yesterday. I shorted Anadarko. Figured with a well 178 feet away, APC killed those poor guys working on a water heater in their basement in Colorado. Talk about low mintage surprises, hope there are no uncapped lines under the Denver Mint!

@ So Krates.
All dies are inventoried and stored. If an error occurs, they can go back and look through the inventory to find out how many were used. They also look at how many coins were produced by the average die production. Proof dies usually strike up to 2,000 coins. Although die production will vary with denomination(among other factors), the average die lasts somewhere around 25,000-50,000 for business strikes…some even 75,000.
I’m sure my numbers are off, so any corrections to current die production and storage/inventory of dies would be helpful. This info is what I remember reading almost 23 years ago…:-}

@Samuel – I collect the PCGS MS69DMPLs in the pucks (most are also “First Strike” but I do not agree with the graders using that term because it is NOT accurate). I also have a few with the Moy or Mercanti Sigs when I got a good price on them. I am doing them in PCGS mainly because the first ones I got were PCGS and another reason is the slabs are smaller than the ones NGC uses. The prices tend to be better on pucks in the NGC slabs. I have not had the silver tarnishing problem with the pucks that some people have had with PCGS slabs on the eagles and other modern silver.

In classic coins I have some of all of the big 4 (PCGS, NGC, ANACS & ICG). I generally stay away from any slabs that are not from these 4 companies. I generally prefer raw and OGP coins, but sometimes what you’re looking to buy is slabbed, especially at coins shows or over the net. The classics I have were bought for the coin, not the holder, so I’m not hung up on which name is on the holder if I like the coin and it appears appropriately graded.

A friend of mine received a shipping notice on the ATB puck he had ordered on enrollment.
Problem is it is for the Douglas puck but the picture in the email is of the Roosevelt puck.
What else can they mess up.