I doubt the "war" is over. The DRM issues plaguing CD sales and label business models are going to start plaguing the film industry as well. I already have friends who've returned players or bought DVD's they can't play in certain machines. The studios are going to struggle against piracy and follow the RIAA right into the swamp of bad practices and futile efforts making legit, legal copies a pain in the ass to work with. That will make digital copies more appealing and the studio will continue to lose money basing "success" on: physical sales.

Besides it'll be a Sony controlled format. How many other proprietary mediums do we have out there that make compatibility a nightmare? (read: Apple)

With the availability and growing ease of content distribution and digital download and first-fun features, I think the studios are going to have to keep up. The only thing they have going for them is money. Money driven by a) theatres,(our home theatre has better picture, sound and comfort and no cost either) b) DVD sales (how many people are getting shit through torrent now?

In the age of digital, a physical disc is out.

Currently, 1080i is the standard on most consumer products. Compare that to the 4096x2987 motion picture negative this is also considered "4K." "2K" or roughly 2048x1493 is what most if not all your major pictures are shot in. It takes a lot less tape and processing to do it in 2K vs. 4K. However, by the time your favorite flik goes through all the processing and conversion to digital and DVD, the degradation in original quality leaves you looking at a barely distinguishable 1920x1080 picture. This gets compressed to 480 (or 720 if you're lucky) and crammed on to the SD DVD.

Now, where am I going with this? Oh yeah, Red. Q1 of last year had Red showing off their new 4K DIGITAL camera at NAMM. Q2/Q3 had them shipping. Peter Jackson also did a short film with it. [Side note=RED is also teaming with a as yet unnamed Japanese maufacturer to produce the first 4K digital movie projector; they kind you find in your local theatre but without the price tag. Initial speculation has it at sub $100K. This puts it in the market for local clubs, organizations, venues and small business owners and could change the field dramatically]

Long story short, you'll be able to shoot with this 4K camera and have better picture quality than your 35mm simply because it doesn't have to go through all the processing. I think to date, current tech short of a Terabyte drive can't hold a substantial amount of 4K quality picture such as film or movie. So maybe a tech will come out that will trump both?

Besides, it's only a matter of time before the local video store sets up an online rental store hosted on the regional/local Comcast/Bresnan/Cox [etc.] INTRAnet where fiber's easy to come by and they start running heavy bandwidth content real fast...like HD movies.

All this to say, I have a damn near HD picture now on SD DVDs. I'm not sold yet. I agree, it's another nail in HDD's coffin but I'm still not sold.

I doubt the "war" is over. The DRM issues plaguing CD sales and label business models are going to start plaguing the film industry as well. I already have friends who've returned players or bought DVD's they can't play in certain machines. The studios are going to struggle against piracy and follow the RIAA right into the swamp of bad practices and futile efforts making legit, legal copies a pain in the ass to work with. That will make digital copies more appealing and the studio will continue to lose money basing "success" on: physical sales.

Besides it'll be a Sony controlled format. How many other proprietary mediums do we have out there that make compatibility a nightmare? (read: Apple)

With the availability and growing ease of content distribution and digital download and first-fun features, I think the studios are going to have to keep up. The only thing they have going for them is money. Money driven by a) theatres,(our home theatre has better picture, sound and comfort and no cost either) b) DVD sales (how many people are getting shit through torrent now?

In the age of digital, a physical disc is out.

Currently, 1080i is the standard on most consumer products. Compare that to the 4096x2987 motion picture negative this is also considered "4K." "2K" or roughly 2048x1493 is what most if not all your major pictures are shot in. It takes a lot less tape and processing to do it in 2K vs. 4K. However, by the time your favorite flik goes through all the processing and conversion to digital and DVD, the degradation in original quality leaves you looking at a barely distinguishable 1920x1080 picture. This gets compressed to 480 (or 720 if you're lucky) and crammed on to the SD DVD.

Now, where am I going with this? Oh yeah, Red. Q1 of last year had Red showing off their new 4K DIGITAL camera at NAMM. Q2/Q3 had them shipping. Peter Jackson also did a short film with it. [Side note=RED is also teaming with a as yet unnamed Japanese maufacturer to produce the first 4K digital movie projector; they kind you find in your local theatre but without the price tag. Initial speculation has it at sub $100K. This puts it in the market for local clubs, organizations, venues and small business owners and could change the field dramatically]

Long story short, you'll be able to shoot with this 4K camera and have better picture quality than your 35mm simply because it doesn't have to go through all the processing. I think to date, current tech short of a Terabyte drive can't hold a substantial amount of 4K quality picture such as film or movie. So maybe a tech will come out that will trump both?

Besides, it's only a matter of time before the local video store sets up an online rental store hosted on the regional/local Comcast/Bresnan/Cox [etc.] INTRAnet where fiber's easy to come by and they start running heavy bandwidth content real fast...like HD movies.

All this to say, I have a damn near HD picture now on SD DVDs. I'm not sold yet. I agree, it's another nail in HDD's coffin but I'm still not sold.

You make some very good points and the whole Red thing is very, very cool but...

Downloading HD movies is not very reasonable right now. Who wants to download 25 - 50 gigs just to watch a movie? I sure as heck do not want to wait, and wait for said movie to finish downloading... it is a lot easier to insert a disc in a player. Plus where are you going to store these downloaded movies? I have around 20 or so Blu movies that fit nicely on a shelf and do not clutter up and slow down my PC. Plus the cost of building an HTPC to enjoy these HD downloads will be a lot more than simply buying a Blu-ray player for $300 - $400 dollars... which I expect to see the price drop even more as Blu is more readily adopted.

Sure SD movies look "ok" upconverted but it depends on how old the movie is, how the movie was originally shot, and how good the transfer is from original film reel to SD. Transformers and Star Wars look pretty good upconverted, but they are not even close to the quality of what the picture looks like when watching a true HD movie on my Blu-ray player. I will take some pictures to prove my point next week when I get my Harry Potter movies 1 - 4 on Blu and compare them to the SD versions I have.

Logged

wo things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein

as long as I can still use my DVDs I currently have with what ever format they choose, who cares. I think the picture I get from a standard DVD is more than fine, but then again, I am blind. The increased picture is somewhat wasted on me.

They just need to make them so they play old format stuff, the players that is, not the new discs. And they should also continue to make standard DVDs. IMHO.

as long as I can still use my DVDs I currently have with what ever format they choose, who cares. I think the picture I get from a standard DVD is more than fine, but then again, I am blind. The increased picture is somewhat wasted on me.

They just need to make them so they play old format stuff, the players that is, not the new discs. And they should also continue to make standard DVDs. IMHO.

Both player formats support and play SD DVD... I don't see SD going anywhere for a while.

Logged

wo things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein

x2 on all that JR said. HD and physical media will eventually take over, but I think there will always be the majority of people who need to have that physical disc in hand or in their collection - I attribute that to human nature. Plus the major media players have not figured out how to make $$ from digital media yet...so they will keep going down the same road.

copassatguy: Downloading 25-50Gb of data may seem slow on a 100Mb Ethernet connection, so streaming content is more applicable there. Plus HD format can be compressed and shrunk down to a downloadable amount - less than 2Gb is ususally acceptable. Heck I can download an HD movie on my Xbox360 right now if I want to.

In less than 10 years data networks will be gigabit or higher (fiber?), allowing 25-50Gb content to be downloaded much faster than current times.

What this really comes down to is Sony vs. Microsoft due to the platforms the discs are developed on, cost and distribution. The hardware is really just there to support the type of media format - blue vs. red laser makes no difference, really. Both formats hold (or could theoretically hold) about the same amount of data in single, dual, triple, quad, and 8 layers (read below).

Cost: Currently blue Lasers cost more to manufacture that the red laser, and because of the new format Blu-Ray discs also cost more to produce than HD-DVD. The reason for this is explained as a new technology expense, and costs will decrease as production goes up.

Dev Platforms:Sony Blu-Ray is developed using Java, where Microsoft uses HDi which is a mix of HTML, CSS, XML (XML, XSL-FO, XPath, ECMAScript) and others that are already widely used, so HD-DVD will be an easier transition for web developers and others with little DVD development experience. Blu-ray Disc content is authored using either a scripting environment, or a Java-based platform. DVD's use pre-rendered MPEG segments, pictures, and simple navigation which is much more limited.

Why HD-DVD will win the "format war":...in my opinion...Both formats have support of major manufacturers and movie labels and have similar A/V qualities, so it comes down to a few things I think HD-DVD has over Blu-Ray:

1. Cost - The main argument for Blu-Ray is that they hold more information on one disc because there is less space between bits on the Blu-Ray disc. But, there is no reason to go to Blue lasers now because 3 layer HD-DVD will hold 51GB. Consumers will be able to get their hands on HD-DVD players because they will be cheaper and do the same thing, if not more, than Blu-Ray. So, there will be more players on the market, which will increase the demand and sales of HD-DVD media. It also costs more to buy into the development, marketing, and production of Blu-Ray...it even costs anywhere from $3000 - $50000 annually just to be in the Blu-ray Disc Association. These costs will be pushed down to the consumer and/or end user.

2. Development (more widely adopted platform) - Developers will be able to make more interactive, higher quality, easy to produce HD-DVD menus, navigation, and movie segments with HDi. Also HD-DVD is not a proprietary media format - consider Sony's previous media (mini-disc, PSP, BetaMax - they pretty much all much failed...I still love my PSP tho). HD-DVD content will be better looking, easier to use, easier to produce and develop, and overall just cooler than Java based Blu-Ray.

3. Disc Capacity - Both have around 50GB capacity with the ability to add more layers for more content. In doing research I did find some evidence that a 4 layer 100GB and an 8 layer 200GB Blu-Ray disc could happen. So, it currently looks like Blu-Ray has more storage potential. I argue that more storage space is like renting a bigger storage area: the bigger area the more you pay, but will you utilize the amount of storage you paid for? Probably not. Or at least not today, so it could be that Blu-Ray storage capacity may be ahead of it's time.

I recently got laid up with a good injury. One that put me on the couch for a number of hours/days/weeks/months - against my will of course. With that in mind I went out looking for something that would keep me entertained. I looked at the BR players anddecided on a PS3. It just made sense since a standalone player is about the same cost - with PS3 I got to try gaming for the first time and it was essentially "free."

I love the PS3/BR. It still plays DVDs (even upconverts) and at last read I will have a software upgrade soon that will allow me to play DivX - not that I am downloading movies at this point.

Blockbuster has a good selection and I am thinking about joining NetFlix (as their library is extensive).

So... in the end, during this "war" I am still enjoying HD and playing some kick a$$ first person shooter games

I will say that it is a bit different on the production side of things. That also plays a huge role in the development and support of a given format. I speak mostly from that end. And in this world, you have two main formats to shoot too: DVCPRO HD and HDV. Sony and Panasonic lead the charge here. This does trickle down to the consumer level.

Yea... I figure I will eventually learn not to point it at myself when unloading.

Weird thing about the PS3 is that I have never been any kind of a gamer... and since I bought this thing I have beat Resistance: Fall of Man and Call for Duty. I am working on Ghost Recon 4 now. This games are a kick in the butt. And to play them on a 42" HiDef TV at 720p or greater is amazing. It has truly sucked me in.

Both formats have support of major manufacturers and movie labels and have similar A/V qualities, so it comes down to a few things I think HD-DVD has over Blu-Ray:

1. Cost - The main argument for Blu-Ray is that they hold more information on one disc because there is less space between bits on the Blu-Ray disc. But, there is no reason to go to Blue lasers now because 3 layer HD-DVD will hold 51GB. Consumers will be able to get their hands on HD-DVD players because they will be cheaper and do the same thing, if not more, than Blu-Ray. So, there will be more players on the market, which will increase the demand and sales of HD-DVD media. It also costs more to buy into the development, marketing, and production of Blu-Ray...it even costs anywhere from $3000 - $50000 annually just to be in the Blu-ray Disc Association. These costs will be pushed down to the consumer and/or end user.

There is no such thing as a 51GB HD DVD disk... it failed, plus it would be incompatible with current HD DVD players. The cheaper HD DVD players are 1080i and Toshiba is taking a loss for each one soldhttp://gizmodo.com/gadgets/notag/every-99-hd-dvd-player-losing-500-319172.php. HD DVD only has Universal and Paramount for studio support (Warner till May 08). There is no way that they can survive... I am willing to bet that Universal will soon be providing content to Blu by becoming format neutral.

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2. Development (more widely adopted platform) - Developers will be able to make more interactive, higher quality, easy to produce HD-DVD menus, navigation, and movie segments with HDi. Also HD-DVD is not a proprietary media format - consider Sony's previous media (mini-disc, PSP, BetaMax - they pretty much all much failed...I still love my PSP tho). HD-DVD content will be better looking, easier to use, easier to produce and develop, and overall just cooler than Java based Blu-Ray.

Blu is not Sony's format (broken record)... Both have the same features by the way, but Blu has more bandwidth on disc so it should be better quality.

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3. Disc Capacity - Both have around 50GB capacity with the ability to add more layers for more content. In doing research I did find some evidence that a 4 layer 100GB and an 8 layer 200GB Blu-Ray disc could happen. So, it currently looks like Blu-Ray has more storage potential. I argue that more storage space is like renting a bigger storage area: the bigger area the more you pay, but will you utilize the amount of storage you paid for? Probably not. Or at least not today, so it could be that Blu-Ray storage capacity may be ahead of it's time.

No 51GB disc...

They both use the same video codecs and depending how much you compress the video (for HD DVD) they could both have the same audio. There is a lot of misinformation on the web right now about both formats.

I would like to think that they are trying to help end the war and went Blu in order to bring about an end... obviously they also think Blu will win.

Oh they don't care about the format war. They want to make their money.

If Panasonic can charge $1700 for a P2 card that only holds 16GB, that will only work with Panasonic equipment and proprietary codecs and readers, they will. It's all about the money. It's a delusion to believe they'll ever think about the consumer or the professional producer.

Company A and company B both developed HD DVD burning technology from two different directions. Company A wants their technology to sell better than company B and vice versa. There's no thought to the consumer at all.

The distributors (Warner, Sony [distribution], Universal, Paramount, etc.] are secondary. The more distributors that go with a given company (blu/HD) they better for that company that developed the technology.

Anyway, I'll bet this will go the way of the laser disc anyway.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I have it straight from the editor's (film) mouth that Iron Man is being shot in HD.

Oh they don't care about the format war. They want to make their money.

If Panasonic can charge $1700 for a P2 card that only holds 16GB, that will only work with Panasonic equipment and proprietary codecs and readers, they will. It's all about the money. It's a delusion to believe they'll ever think about the consumer or the professional producer.

Company A and company B both developed HD DVD burning technology from two different directions. Company A wants their technology to sell better than company B and vice versa. There's no thought to the consumer at all.

The distributors (Warner, Sony [distribution], Universal, Paramount, etc.] are secondary. The more distributors that go with a given company (blu/HD) they better for that company that developed the technology.

Anyway, I'll bet this will go the way of the laser disc anyway.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I have it straight from the editor's (film) mouth that Iron Man is being shot in HD.

I agree... they are only in it for the money and could care less about the consumer.

I was never a fan of Iron Man so it will be a rental for me... I wonder how many films now are being shot in HD. I am really looking forward to Dark Knight though.

I was never a fan of Iron Man so it will be a rental for me... I wonder how many films now are being shot in HD. I am really looking forward to Dark Knight though.

Not many. Hollywood's still trying to figure out a good tapeless workflow. A lot of them are OG's and are set in their ways. In this Iron Man, is being shot in 35mm due to the lens distortion from some of the aerial and inside suit stuff. All of their offline editing is being done in HD.

From what I understand, the 35mm will be converted to digital for the online editing and remain thus. The whole process appears to kill an entire set of film transfers...I think.

From Reduser.net: "We are very happy to hear Panasonic and Sony announce their 4K displays at CES today. That allows us to finally announce that RED has been developing for release a 4K delivery system.

We have been committed to 4K from day one. It has always been our vision to see 4K in the home as well as on the big screen. We always believed that 1080P was a stop-gap along the way to 4K.

We will be announcing details of the RED 4K Delivery system at NAB in April.

From Reduser.net: "We are very happy to hear Panasonic and Sony announce their 4K displays at CES today. That allows us to finally announce that RED has been developing for release a 4K delivery system.

We have been committed to 4K from day one. It has always been our vision to see 4K in the home as well as on the big screen. We always believed that 1080P was a stop-gap along the way to 4K.

We will be announcing details of the RED 4K Delivery system at NAB in April.

Jim"

It will take a little while for it be adopted the masses but I am all for new tech

Logged

wo things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein

But sheesh, let's confuse consumers more by calling it "4k" giving the impression that this compares to "1080" or "1k + 80" vertical pixels. The "4k" is really 2000 vertical pixels by 4000 horizontal. An increase of 6 megapixels is plenty impressive, but we're not really moving from 1080 to 4000 here (which would be 28 megapixels--in case you were wondering).

I'm ready to hook up my computer to one of those... talk about desktop real estate.

But sheesh, let's confuse consumers more by calling it "4k" giving the impression that this compares to "1080" or "1k + 80" vertical pixels. The "4k" is really 2000 vertical pixels by 4000 horizontal. An increase of 6 megapixels is plenty impressive, but we're not really moving from 1080 to 4000 here (which would be 28 megapixels--in case you were wondering).

I'm ready to hook up my computer to one of those... talk about desktop real estate.

Yeah, sorry about that. It's more production speak than consumer speak.

I stopped watching that channel when they changed from TechTV to the current Axe bodyspray (insert fake orgasm sound...), every other line sexual innuendo (Kevin Pereria), WTF is "Attack of the Show"??!?!, "I'm a geek but i'm cool"...content.

Anyway...I lov3d TechTV, and was really disappointed when they went to the adolescent programming. Maybe it's changed since I tuned in last.

With the drop of Paramount I will hold off buying the HD-DVD player for my 360

I stopped watching that channel when they changed from TechTV to the current Axe bodyspray (insert fake orgasm sound...), every other line sexual innuendo (Kevin Pereria), WTF is "Attack of the Show"??!?!, "I'm a geek but i'm cool"...content.

Anyway...I lov3d TechTV, and was really disappointed when they went to the adolescent programming. Maybe it's changed since I tuned in last.

With the drop of Paramount I will hold off buying the HD-DVD player for my 360

I stopped watching that channel when they changed from TechTV to the current Axe bodyspray (insert fake orgasm sound...), every other line sexual innuendo (Kevin Pereria), WTF is "Attack of the Show"??!?!, "I'm a geek but i'm cool"...content.

Anyway...I lov3d TechTV, and was really disappointed when they went to the adolescent programming. Maybe it's changed since I tuned in last.

With the drop of Paramount I will hold off buying the HD-DVD player for my 360