Is There Going To Be A Rapture

The Apostle Paul testified to His coming: "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." -Heb. 9:28. Does this verse speak to those who do not believe in a rapture.

The only mention of anything like a rapture in the Bible is the phrase "caught up" in 1Th4:13-18 which refers to Jesus 2nd coming, and only to those who are believers in Jesus; whether dead (asleep in the grave) or alive. To assign this event to anything other than the visible, loud 2nd coming of Jesus is to deny the clearest teaching of scripture.

Trying to figure out prophesy puts a heavy burden on the heart, especially when man tries to interpret them in worldly ways. And, as you know, there are as many interpretations of Bible prophesy as there are stars in the sky. As long as you are walking in the Spirit, everything is kosher. When reading the Bible from the beginning to the end, your relationship with God becomes stronger. Once your relationship congeals, He himself will reveal the information you seek.

STOP this frivolous debate. This takes your time away from what really matter -- feeding the poor, quenching their thirst, clothing them, comforting them, looking after them when they are sick. Do all of this in the glory of God. Dont worry about the past or the future. Just be aware of what is happening in the world. Go about your daily tasks, read the Bible from beginning to end (not a verse here and a verse there), pray, and continue walking in the Spirit.

Elder you are so right, people have told me over and over that Revelation is a hard/complecated book to understand. When I looked at it, it reminded me of some science fiction thing. So, yes, I would be happy and really interested to read anything you have on it because I respect your views. thanx, God bless.

Mrs. Morgan I thank you for your kind comments, Bruce and Sue for your comments also.My purpose here is to be of service to others so they can be of service to others so they can be.... understand? I know you do.Many simple things are in the Revelation that people just don't understand because they have heard it is a hard book. For example;The Judgements start with the 7 sealed book in chapter 5 that no one was worthy to open except Jesus. Cond #2

Cond #2The 1st seal is opened in ch6 and the last on in ch8. There is a break in the action between the 6th and the 7th seal and John gives other information about the 144,000 from the twelve tribes listed. This brings up the question about the tribe of Dan. Where is Dan? That tribe is also in the Revelation, but where?The 7th seal brings in the opening of the trumpets ch8. This was so devastating that Heaven was quiet for a period of time.Cond #3

Cond #3The 7th Trumpet sounds in ch 11:15. We don't see the Bowl Judgements until Ch 15:1.In Ch 12 and 13 the Devil is allowed to reign. We see the suffering woman (Israel), the fall of Satan, and the persecuted woman which brought forth The Man Child (Israel and Jesus.We see the Devil and his relation to the world along with the Antichrist and the False Prophet and how they blaspheme God's person, nature, program and people.Cond #4

Cond #4In ch 15 we see the 7 last plagues which end in ch 16.Now that is a simple outline of the Judgements that took less that 2 minutes to present. That leaves 2hrs and 58 min to present the rest of the book and explain what is going on. Then when you understand the Book and its flow you can spend your life studying and sharing.Cond #5

Cond #5Most Christians I have ever dealt with didn't know about the Judgements, how many or what they were. Now we have covered chapter 5 to 15 and the subject of the Judgements and some other items.I am in the process of writing a book about this. Any one who wants my outlines and comments are welcome to them if you contact me at elder2291.

Elder , If you don't mind me saying that I repect your respecting to be rebuked , Many do not /will not accept rebuking, Godly rebuking that is, not All rebuking is godly(done in the right spirit). I have learned much, by accepting godly rebuking from Children of God, and by God Himself. --Mrs. Morgan

Bruce I accept your rebuke in the spirit it was given. We know we cannot take John 3:16 and teach it all in a life time.My statement was, "The Book of Revelation can be taught completely in just three hours."No one asked what completely was. In order to learn the book we must understand the layout and "mechanics" The Book can be taught in 3 hours or less, completely, ya ain't gotta come back tomorrow for more.You see I know where the comments came from and why.

Sue if you would like a copy of the notes I will gladly let you have them with the permission of CN. Of course there will not be any cost and none would be accepted. Please write me at elder2291 and I'll get then to you. God Bless.

Reading the Bible from beginning to end, not a verse here and a verse there,.forms the foundation for developing a relationship -- not a religion -- with God. The Bible is sort of Gods resume. He desires a personal relationship with his people. Unfortunately, people today have a hard time developing relationships on Earth, let alone developing a relationship with someone not seen. But once your relationship with God congeals, He reveals more of himself and mysteries not written in the Bible.

Would you start reading a novel on page 77, then read page 17, then page 127 and understand what the novel is all about? Of course not. The Bible was never in context form as it is taught today. By taking verses out of context, I could make you believe in anything your heart desires, or your itching ears want to hear. Thats the way Satan works. Thats how Satan deceived Adam and Eve and how he tried to deceive Jesus.

Larry if I was as you say I am ChristiaNet would have kicked me off long ago. You travel the path of so many before you. You do nothing but try to inflame others who have not read all of the comments by distorting what is/was said.Cond #2

Cond #2You posted bold faced distortions of the truth when you said I called anyone stupid. If you come to that conclusion by reading anything I said I am not responsible for that either.Kathr said, "I know we won't be here when The Kingdom of this world Becomes the Kingdom of or Lord Jesus."Sorry but that is not so either. I would tell you why but I don't want you bragging that you learned anything from me as you are still studying the book of "Revelations."Cond #3

Cond #3Your battle is with the Lord. I have dealt with you before.If the Truth makes me look arrogant to you too bad. There are more people here who know me better than you do so your "vote" as you call it matters to no one as does your attitude. There is no one that reads here that can truthfully say I have ever called anyone stupid. So what does that make a person that tries to make people think I did. They are listed in Rev 21:8.Cond #4

Cond #4You stated, "One has to truly be "IN CHRIST", and with that does see so many more revelations, and those of Jesus Himself." Please tell me some of those "more" revelations that you have seen in this book. There is no "Hidden Manna" in the Revelation. It is all open for all to see but not with blind eyes.

Elder, I, in all respect, would love to read your two pages of notes on the book of Revelation. Is there a way to email them? Or did you just write them down for your own reference? Just wondering. Thanx.

PART ONE:Elder, I must say your responses to Kathr4453 here seem to be unwarranted and excessive. The concept that a comprehensive overview of Revelation in three hours would be feasible. To teach it "completly" is not realistic.

PART TWO:Both of you, are misapplying Philippians 2:5, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:". This "mind" is explained in the next few verses and has a specific meaning. It is refering to the humility and servant attitude that Jesus assumed when he became flesh.

Notice - humility.

By the sound of this discussion you would both do well return to your corners and meditatie on Phil 2:1-8.

Dont worry Elder... I know what you meant. Revelation is not nearly as complicated as people make it out to be. Unfortunately, too many people see Revelation as a mysterious cryptic puzzle. For all the different beliefs out there these days it's no wonder Christians are confused. The funniest part about it all is a lot of Christians put all their effort into overcomplicating Revelation and forget the rest of the Bible... which has 65 books that will help us avoid the events Revelation speak of anyway.

Elder: When you call someone stupid for saying Revelations and not Revelation, you are showing how arrogant you really are. I would hate to sit in one of your classes, just based on that comment alone.

If someone comments on your statement (re: 3 hours) and you accuse them of slander, lies, etc, etc, who are you exalting? You or the Lord?

26For ye see your calling, brethren,how that not many wise men after the flesh,not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not,to bring to nought things that are:

Elder: Your reply back. That is exactly what I said in my reply back to you. One has to have the mind of Christ to know these things. kathr said, the wisdom of Christ and hidden manna. When we apply these to the worldly minded and Carnal Christian, as so many are today, you know they are not processing these truths in the same way the spiritual minded are processing them. One has to truly be "IN CHRIST", and with that does see so many more revelations, and those of Jesus Himself.

Elder: When you say you can teach this in 3 hours, you are only covering the basics of what we all have heard. kathr was stating, and correctly so, there are so many things in Revelations, that have blessed Christians all down through the centuries, that were not living in the times we are now. Just don't overlook those! My vote still goes with kathr. John didn't receive this in three hours that we know of, so we can't know all in three hours. Only the cliff notes version!

Elder: I know there were many dog and pony shows going on during WW2. So many thought the rapture was going to be right then. It certainly had all the earmarks. Many wonderful christians lost their faith when those who were so dogmatic that that was the time didn't come to pass. next

Elder: I've read some of kathr's questions and points she's made. I also agree with her, that if anyone questions any part of someone's pre-mid-post, that are so dogmatic, they do get rather nasty about it. What we are finding in these seminars are people reading the Headlines rather than the Bible. "Their bags are packed and their ready to go"! This is not what I believe the Lord wants from us. next

Elder: It's in you attitude that YOU are the teacher. Kathr's point was not that she doesn't have an open heart to learn, but that we also need to stay open to the ONLY TEACHER. The problem I see with so many who seem to know all the right answers, is that with their seminars, many think they know Revelations, never reading for themselves so many more wonderful truths that so many have overlooked. I think this was her point. Not to insult you personally,but to say, don't stop studying yourselves. next

Larry why does the Bible say Let this mind be in you that was also in Christ Jesus if it were not possible that God would reveal parts of His mind to us?People reject things they don't understand and then make excuses for why they can't understand them.Whenever a person calls the book Revelationsit is because they have not spent enough time in the book.Cond #2

Cond #2My statements were called a lies through a judgmental attitude with no support which you yourself now use. I asked simple questions that were ignored but maybe you can answer them. The theme and answers to the Revelation is found in the other books of the Bible.Statements that were made were like; I don't have it so no one else can either. You point out that boasting is sin which I didn't do, yet judgement, pride and slanderous remarks seem to be OK.Cond #3

Cond #3The Revelation, Revelation by the way is the name of the Book, is simple and understandable. The Tribe of Dan is there, the Churches are not symbolic but were real, there will be a mid-trib rapture involving only two people and the book is not hidden from view because it has been revealed according to God Himself in the very first verse. A mystery revealed is no longer a mystery.Cond #4

Cond #4Rather than saying I don't know and would like to learn some reject the source and make false statements.Closed minds are like closed books. A person who does not read has little advantage over someone who cannot read. The person with a sincere heart says "Teach me" not "You can't teach me."But you are right and I must apologize I don't believe that I could teach you or Kathr in 300 hours much less 3.

Elder: I don't see kathr's statement offensive one bit.I see your "boasting" offensive. No one can know all the mind of God. Did God reveal all this to you personally? Spiritual things are revealed to us through the Holy Spirit. The deeper things(to those who are full grown) are revealed in a mystery.

Boasting is not a sign of maturity!There are several views even the most excellent Prophetic teachers will admit are problematic areas.

Revelations 1:1 "THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST", which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

kathr4453, your statement "Now if anyone actually believes they can teach that in 3 hours, you have more going for you than God Himself!!!!" is offensive.I have traveled with the College I was associated with and we did just that.I have two pages of notes that if you would study them you would have more knowledge about the Revelation than most people on this earth.Your reply has resulted in my following post, (1-3) not to be critical or mean but just to set the record straight.

kathr4453, you don't know me, anything about what God has done with or for me. Your statements reflect your attitude.Your reference to "Revelations" reveal your knowledge also, for Revelations is not the name. There is only one Revelation in that Book and the title of it is inspired.When someone learns to "dissect" the Book and the events it all becomes so simple that you can understand it.Who is that Rider on the White horse in Rev 6? Why do you think so?Cond #2

Cond #2There are more Judgements than the Trumpets. What does the 7th Trumpet bring in?Why is Dan not one of the tribes in Revelation? Dan is there by the way. Do you know where? The reason you don't understand the Revelation is what you said yourself, "One has to be Heavenly minded and open to the Lord."Your condemnation of me and my ability given by the Lord just shows you lack the understanding of the book and maybe a lot of other things.Cond #3

Cond #3You must understand the Revelation before you can learn the Revelation. You are closed to the idea that anyone can help you understand that book in such a short time but yet it is the only book with an Inspired Title and is open to all who will hear.

There is so much babbling about it because of all the different translations people use. Then it gets taken even further and individual people assume themselves to be smarter than the translators and they spread what they think is the correct translation. Dr. J. Vernon Mcgee, a popular radio host who does a walk through the Bible ministry, does not even read Revelation to his audience, but rather gives his own translation of the entire book. Does that sound wise?

Elder, If Revelations is so simple, and can be studied and understood in 3 hours, why does God use terms like "Those who have Wisdom" Hidden Manna" etc. These things cannot be learned in 3 hours or are they simple as you say! They are to me, God, revealing to His very own things the world or worldly minded will never come to grips with. Why do you think there is so much Babel--ing about it?

One thing many people miss is the Olivet Discourse (contained in Matthew 24 and Mark 13) is not a prophecy about the rapture. Jesus was speaking to the Jews about his second coming when he shall extablish his kindgom on earth. Most of the information Jesus shares in these chapters will take place after the rapture has already occured. Some of the events he mentioned may be before the rapture, but he does not touch on any rapture specifics in his message.

Some take "come up Here" right after the Letters as referring to the Rapture. If that is the only premise one has for that exact time, we need at least 1 or 2 more scriptures to back that up. Come up here could also mean that the Lord was showing John things to come from the perspective of God looking down, instead of us looking up..I think there is more than we can know exactly. One has to be Heavenly minded and open to the Lord rather than books.

The Church and the Saints, I believe OT will reign and rule with Christ during the 1000 Year Kingdom Reign. This is spoken of also in the letters in the beginning of rev. Those who overcome will reign and rule with Christ. We won't be reigning and ruling anyone in Heaven. This is what we are now being groomed for now, the Kingdom Reign.I don't have all the exact answers. Some things though are taught to us as we learn to rightly divide the word of Truth.

The scripture in Matthew is speaking to Jews. "Hope this doesn't happen on the sabbath". Only Jews were and are under a sabbath law. This is the time I believe when the rebirth of Israel/ and the total annihilation of Gentile world power will take place starting at Rev 11.

Elder: I'm just putting other scripture together and letting the Lord show me things. I do know those who are so locked into the Pre-trip can get rather nasty if you bring other things to the table. I know we won't be here when The Kingdom of this world Becomes the Kingdom of or Lord Jesus, the Kingdom restored to Israel. Acts 1:7It's not altogether out of the question to place a catching away before Rev 11 and after Rev 10.

Elder: I know the word Church is never used again after ch 3. It is used again at the end of Rev. i know the 7 trumpets are the 7 judgements not wrath. Peter says that judgement begins at the house of the Lord. I've wondered sometime when it says after one of those trumps, a bushel of wheat for a dariner(sP) if that might not be those who believe in and preach a prosperity Gospel, will be judged, and given a chance to repent. There are many ways to see Rev. No one has an exclusive on the exact meanings.

wivv, I am glad that you have taken the courses that you stated but I taught those level courses. The Book of Revelation can be taught completely in just three hours.My statement about the Mid-Trib Rapture was to show that only two are called up not a great group. So, Mid-Trib is out for the Church.Cond #2

Cond #2Post-Trib is out because it doesn't correspond with other Scripture and doesn't make sense.From Rev 1:4 to Rev 3:22 John speaks to and about the Church. John was with the Church.Between 3:22 and 4:1 something happens.John says a door was opened in heaven, he heard a Trumpet and then found himself in the throne room in heaven.After 3:22 the Church is NEVER seen again in the Bible.Where'd they go?Cond #3

Cond #3We don't see the word automobile, hospital, or paycheck in the Bible but we know they exist. Get sick and you will drive in your automobile to the hospital and try not to spend all of your paycheck.If I was speaking to someone who only spoke Latin what would I call a catching away? (Hint Rapture)The Revelation is a simple book if you don't reject Truth just because you don't understand it.

I've wondered about the Last trump, mentioned in 1st Cor:15, and again in Rev: 10:7.The"Mystery of God" is used "those exact words". only 2 times..once in Col:2, and in Rev 10:7. The "Mystery of God" in Col referrs to the Church, The Body of Christ.I know Christians are not going to be part of the wrath to come. He took our wrath upon Him at the cross. So then the wrath of God is to those in Thess, who obeyed not the Gospel, and received not the Love of the Gospel.

Yeah, John wrote it during his time, but it is prophetic of the future. "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy" Rev 1:3 "Write the things...which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" Rev 1:19 The 1st 3 chapters were his present time while at the same time a foreshadow of the future. Rev. 4 begins the future prophecy "...I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Rev. 4:1

This was in John's time! He is fellow partaker at that time.Re 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Steven, why does belief in the rapture give you the impression that we think we are better Christians? Just because we believe it, doesnt mean we are going to be a part of it. It could be that we are the "other Christian in the history of man" that you are referring to. Doesnt mean we cant believe there will be a rapture. Scripture makes it pretty evident that it will happen, but we dont know what generation will be part of it, hence the repeated efforts to alert us that no one will know when.

caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.sounds like a rapture, if it were the second coming, why then would those who believe that Jesus died and rose again be caught up to meet him in the air if only to return to the ground? Doesnt make much sense. Christ will keep the saved from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

#4.If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and slay all the ungodly, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium?

When Jesus returns, Rev 19:14, there is an army that follows Him riding on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. In Rev 19:8 we are told the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.

#2.The Church has alreadly been caught in heaven before Christ coming picture in Rev 19 VV.11-21.Two reason why:1).The bride is entirely dressed and ready in heaven for the "Marriage of the lamb";This conclude that the Church has already been Raptured into heaven. 2).The bride who is already in heaven is fully clothed in "the righteousness of saints"(V8).

For the righteous acts of the saints to be completed, they must be in heaven and delievered from all evil.

#3.Revelation 19:14.Once again the armies who return with Christ include all saints who are already in Heaven (17:14).Their white clothing reveals their heavenly status.If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going.

No where in the bible does it teach a "Post-Trib Rapture". One scripture that refutes a Post-Trib Rapture is Revelation 19:7-8.

.In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. The marriage supper takes place before the marriage.The bride in heaven before the coming of Christ to Earth(second stage).

There is nothing new under the sun. The Christians during this tribulation will not only be needing the strong armor of God (by reading the entire Bible) but the blood of the Lamb much like the Israelites painted the blood of the lamb on the door posts of their homes to protect themselves from the plagues. Reading the Bible is like developing a friendship, the more you read, the stronger your relationship with God becomes. Your protection is in the blood of Jesus.

There isnt a pre-trib. Why are todays Christians so vain to think that they are any different than any other Christian in the history of man and to think that they will escape the tribulation of the end times. We are all in this together both the dead and the living. God didnt rapture Noah from the floods, but he provided an escape on Earth. Neither did He provide an escape for the Prophets, the Apostles, nor the Israelites in Egypt during the plagues.

Elded: You are sincere, I'm sure, in your responce, but you are sincerely wrong. To give you the benefit of the doubt, don't think you read the question correcly. The question is not dealing with the rapture of the two witnesses, but of the church. Having taken various courses on the Book of Revlation both on the college level, and gradute level, have to abide by what I stated already, we don't know when it will be or it's relation to the Great Tribulation.

Jerry In Rev 1:7 every eye shall see Jesus when He comes back to reign but in I Thess 4 he calls out only some who see and meet Him. Those are the ones who are "in Him," the Saved. I Thess 5:2 speaks of the Day of the Lord so we need to examine what the "Day of the Lord" is.Notice this "day" begins in the night and Jesus comes like a thief.Cond #2

Jerry In Rev 1:7 every eye shall see Jesus when He comes back to reign but in I Thess 4 he calls out only some who see and meet Him. Those are the ones who are "in Him," the Saved. I Thess 5:2 speaks of the Day of the Lord so we need to examine what the "Day of the Lord" is.Notice this "day" begins in the night and Jesus comes like a thief.Cond #2

Cond #2A thief in the night is very silent and quiet and comes to take valuables away.Jesus doesn't come that way in Rev 1:7.So again, the accounts are so different it must be two separate events.You will also notice that in II Thess 5:9 God has not appointed the Christian to His Day of wrath.There is no way possible I can give you all you need to fully understand this unless I write a book for you.

Jack, so you are saying that at the Second Coming of Jesus the world will end. If the world ends what is He coming back to?I guess I should take some time to cut out Eph 3:20-21 from my Bible because it says "world without end" there.Cond #2

Cond #2But even now in your controversy you are saying two events ("Because they had figured out the two would happen simultaneously or at least consecutively,") your words. Notice you used the words "the two."As I said two separate events. Thanks for your support.Cond #3

Cond #3As for Matt 13 what last day is it? Is it the last day of the week, month, year or maybe the last of the age? In Matt 13 the Greek word translated world, is "Aion" meaning "age." The "age" being spoke of here is the time that Jesus returns to establish His Kingdom on the earth which is the Millennium.Cond #4