Former member of Utah firing squad says executions aren't gruesomeLaw enforcement officer volunteered for job, calls it 'another day at the office'Last execution by firing squad in Utah was 14 years agoRonnie Lee Gardner is set to die by firing squad on June 18

WHAT DO YOU THINK? IS THIS "JUSTICE" AND MORE HUMANE THAN LETHAL INJECTION?

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"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."Honore de Balzac

"Democrats work to help people who need help. That other party, they work for people who don't need help. That's all there is to it."~Harry S. Truman

If there must be executions then this is truly the quickest most painless way to die. There have been many botched lethal injections. That being said, the chance of executing an innocent person makes executions unacceptable to me personally, let them rot in a super max prison where the guilty can spend the rest of their lives contemplating their crimes.

_________________“I'm not a member of any organized party. I'm a Democrat.”-Will Rogers

I tend to agree, APL. Firing squads are efficient and certainly "dispatch" the perp more quickly and I think less painlessly than electric chairs, lethal injections, and definitely more quickly than hanging. While I despise the idea of a death penalty personally because I don't think it's a deterrant, neither do I like the idea of convicted child rapists and killers being allowed to live on at government expense for years and years while their appeals are being heard. What appeal did their victims get to make?

Take away their computers, their televisions, their weight-lifting equipment, and other soft amenities for a start and then life in prison wouldn't be so attractive. Many hardened criminals from other countries like Russia and Cuba think our prisons are country clubs.

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"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."Honore de Balzac

"Democrats work to help people who need help. That other party, they work for people who don't need help. That's all there is to it."~Harry S. Truman

I am absolutely against the death penalty. If nothing else, it goes back to my firm belief that two wrongs do not make a right.

I am personally shocked and really surprised to see that we actually do such barbaric things as firing squads. While it may be quick, it seems patently absurd that in this day and age of medicine, this is what we find to be the most effective way of "dispatching" people. Either way though, I still do not think the death penalty is a deterrent for anything and prison, while not a fun place to be, certainly doesn't end up being much of a punishment, other than separating the "criminals from the normals". (I disagree with putting drug users in prison, and I do not see them as criminals.)

I think our country is a sad, sad place. I am unsure what to do, it overwhelms me when I begin to think of this and makes me feel as though we have no hope left.

_________________You can sing the praises of women all day long, but as long as you put a fertilized egg ahead of [their] welfare, you do not really care about them.-Dori 4/07

It has been awhile since I have written....well, at least posted. I have begun to write many times but in the end I have just ended up deleting it because I have come to understand the futility of attempting to create any changes outside of myself. Even what I write now I may or may not finish. At this point in time I just do not know.

Right now, there is so much going on that it is almost overwhelming and there is not a thing that can be done to stop what has been set in motion. As with everything, events will live out its life until it ends. We cannot stop what has happened, we can only recognize it.

Could things have been different? This is irrelevant. What is done is done.

Anyhow, I would like to pipe in on this topic, not to change your minds. I can not do this, nor is it up to me to do this. At most all that I can hope for is that we can come to a better understanding of not only ourselves, but also each other. We may never come to agree with one another, but understanding one another is at least a start in the right direction.

Every time that I hear someone speak who is absolutely against the death penalty, images come to my mind of some of the horrible crimes that have been committed, I have feelings inside of me which tear out my heart and crush my soul. What if these things happened to someone I love?

In (I think it was) 2007, in Cheshire CT. which is very close to me and a town I know very well, a Dr's family was taken hostage. They were tortured, his oldest daughter was raped, his wife was strangled and then the house was set on fire. It was determined that the deaths of his two daughters was smoke inhalation. He was beaten severely, tied up and left in the basement from which he was able to escape.

The men were career criminals who were caught fleeing the scene. You can look it up on the web. Just type in Dr's family slaughtered in Cheshire CT.

Do these men deserve to live?

Let me ask you this question. What are humans? At the basest form, are we nothing more than animals? I think that this can be agreed upon.

What is it that differentiates us from the rest of the animal kingdom? I think that it can also be agreed upon that it is our very consciousness that separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. We recognize "good" and "evil", we understand "right" and "wrong" and most try to act in a way that would not be considered "evil" or "wrong" because of either a naturally good nature or fear of punishment.

But what of those within society who act in total opposition to what any rational mind would consider to be "good"? What of those who not only have no conscience, but who commit such acts of depravity that we recognize no human, nor humane deed in their actions? Have they not forsaken their humanity with their actions?

I think the difference between us is that those who oppose the death penalty still look upon these individuals as being human where as because of their actions, I no longer see them as being human being but as rabid animals that have stepped over the bounds of having a right to exist.

I consider them to be less than a dog who is put down because of mauling a child because (no matter what the reason) these sub humans have committed terrible crimes in spite of humanity where as the dog is just acting based on instinct. Yes, no matter what, be it by a dog or a sub human, the loss is great, but where the sub human is concerned, I would consider it to be an intentional act of "evil"

You all have made some very good points.

APL, I do agree with you that there is always a possibility of executing an innocent person. This is a problem with our so called justice system and the prosecutors "job" of getting a conviction at all costs. Too many times have we seen evidence ignored, tampered with, miss handled, and manipulated. What do we do? At what point to we make a distinction that someone is clearly guilty? Take the example of the Dr's family. There is no doubt what so ever. None. Should they live? What about someone like Bundy, or Dhamer?

Although I do not think that someone should be executed wilily nilly, there are sub humans who need to be removed from existence.

Cat. I do agree with you that the death penalty is not a deterrent. Neither is the threat of life in prison for these sub humans, and that is just it. Many people would break the law if not for the threat of punishment, be is something as simple as speeding, or petty theft. The fear of punishment in the form of fine or imprisonment keeps many from possibly causing harm or taking something that does not belong to them.

These sub human who commit horrible crimes do not even take any type of punishment into consideration. They do not care, they only act. There IS NO deterrent for these people and it should not be considered a deterrent but a removal of a cancer from society.

Lefty. I think that this is where the biggest disagreement will occur. You still consider these sub humans to be human, I do not.

Let me ask you something. Do you think that a dog who has mauled a child should be put to death or do you think they should be secluded away (under taxpayer expense) for the rest of their natural lives? What if this dog has done it before and this is a multiple offence? (Save Max) This dog mauled someone. The family fought for YEARS to save this dog saying that this was a freak event. The family won. Less than two weeks after arriving home, the dog attacked someone else.

You may say that it is not the same. You would be right, it is not the same. The dog acts in an instinctive way. There is no malice or hate or evil involved. The same can not be said of the actions of the sub human. Their actions are calculated, vile, and evil in nature. Their actions are manyfold worse that a dogs yet hardly anyone would make a peep when a dog is put down.

The only way that we as a society are going to survive is when we come to realize that there are people in this world that are different from us. Not different in a way that is harmless, but in a way that causes great harm and can be considered "evil" in nature. These are not humans, but sub humans. We have a whole government full of them, corporations filled with them, and they live among us. They kill, they steal, they torture. They embody everything that is in opposition to humanity. THEY ARE NOT HUMAN. Not in the way we recognize the meaning of humanity at least.

I will not cry over the death of a sub human. I will instead save my tears for those who are being murdered by the sub humans. I will shed my tears for those who are being murdered and subjugated in our names. I will also shed my tears for all of us who are going to reap the consequences of our actions. We have punctured an artery in mother earth and before she heals chaos will reign.

Mmmm. I guess I can finish...

Dave

_________________CrimsonEagleThe war to end all wars can only be fought on the front-lines of the mind.

The greatest deception they have perpetrated is that we need them. Our greatest mistake is that we believe them.

One fact: It is cheaper to keep a person in prison for life than to execute them. The reasoning is simple, in the case of an execution every possible appeal (seemingly endless at times) is made available to prevent the killing of an innocent person, an act that cannot be undone. In the case of someone serving a life sentence there is limited appeals and if vindication comes they may be released without the gift of Lazarus.

_________________“I'm not a member of any organized party. I'm a Democrat.”-Will Rogers

Yes, this is true. There is a majior problem with our legal/penal system whether someone is going to jail for a petty crime for 5 years at a cost of 100k+ to taxpayers or someone who is fighting against being put too death for a henious crime costing us much more..

Found some interesting facts when looking. Man, the money we waste....

_________________CrimsonEagleThe war to end all wars can only be fought on the front-lines of the mind.

The greatest deception they have perpetrated is that we need them. Our greatest mistake is that we believe them.

In the US the prison system is a huge, gigantic money maker for both states and the private sector. We imprison people for things that make absolutely no sense and we have created an environment of institutions. I used to work for a non-profit and my job was to research potential donors. One such potential donor is the owner of a large chain of prisons across the country. The system that is set up is much like the haliburton/defense contractor system; supposedly it is cheaper to use contractors for things that the government should be doing itself. The thing is that these prisons are sometimes the only means of jobs for large areas, so of course the governments of the states pass laws that cause more and more people to go to jail. Its really all very stupid and ridiculous.

As far as being against capital punishment, I can appreciate your opinion, but I don't share it. You use extreme cases to try to sway me by emotional manipulation, but the fact is that the horrific crimes you describe are not the norm. I just don't believe that murdering people because they murdered someone makes any logical sense. When we kill someone like this, I feel as though it is done out of a need for vengeance. For me, knowing that the "bad guy" was killed, doesn't make the crime they committed any easier to stomach.

_________________You can sing the praises of women all day long, but as long as you put a fertilized egg ahead of [their] welfare, you do not really care about them.-Dori 4/07

My intent was not to sway you by emotional manipulation. If that is how it came across then I apologize.

The cases that I brought up would be the cases that for ME would cause no second thought and are the most extreme examples of depravity. At what point the line is to be drawn that a criminal should be put to death is a very subjective subject. You would consider it to be murder to put the above mentioned to death. You are against the death penalty in all forms. Me, I would lie somewhere in the middle. I belive that there are some beings who have abdicated their humanity and need to be removed. Others believe that anyone for any major crime should be put to death.

In the end I would side with your extreme view over the latter because I think that in order to put someone to death they must have acted in a way that is extremely out of the norm.

Regardless of what either of us believe on this subject, I think that we can all agree that our justice system is just one of the many institutions that are so royally screwed up in our system that it would almost have to be scrapped and rebuilt.

If this were done and they totally removed the death penalty, I would actually be fine with that, though this is just wishful thinking on my part.

Anyway, thank you for your response. I do appreciate it.

Dave

_________________CrimsonEagleThe war to end all wars can only be fought on the front-lines of the mind.

The greatest deception they have perpetrated is that we need them. Our greatest mistake is that we believe them.

I didn't mean you were trying to manipulate me. I just meant that examples like the one you used are often sited and they are used because they emotionally manipulate the feelings of a person. Not that you specifically were trying to manipulate. Ack, I don't know how to explain what I am trying to say.

I would definitely agree that we should start over. I think that should also be done with everything pretty much down to the constitution. We wouldn't be so broke, nor so backwards if we got rid of a lot of things that are going on in this government (on the federal and state levels).

_________________You can sing the praises of women all day long, but as long as you put a fertilized egg ahead of [their] welfare, you do not really care about them.-Dori 4/07

I went back to the article that started this discussion and took a second look at some of the statements made by the officer being interviewed:

Quote:

"There's just some people," he says, "we need to kick off the planet."

Has this officer been emotionally manipulated or do any of you agree with him, especially when it comes to punishing those who commit heinous crimes such as what CE described? If the death penalty isn't used as a "penalty," then what kind of punishment would be more appropriate? I often think that many criminals sentenced to death welcome it after spending a long time on death row. Would making them stay in a harsh prison environment for the rest of their natural lives not be a more fitting punishment? I recently read a book about Timothy McVeigh, the OK City bomber. He loved the outdoors and being completely free to zoom around the country in his old clunker. He thought nothing of driving 500 miles or more to a gun show or to get a first hand view of events like the stand-off at Waco. Leaving him in prison for the remainder of his life would have been a just punishment, IMO.

Quote:

It is not like the scenes depicted in movies, with a condemned man tied to a stake and smoking a last cigarette before being riddled with bullets in a gruesome spectacle. Instead, he says over coffee, toast with grape jelly and an omelet, the process is instantaneous and carried out with the utmost professionalism.

"It was anti-climactic," he says. "Another day at the office."

I wonder if the death penalty would be more of a deterrant if a firing squad was the method used all across the country.

_________________

"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."Honore de Balzac

"Democrats work to help people who need help. That other party, they work for people who don't need help. That's all there is to it."~Harry S. Truman

I believe the emotional manipulation is used to get people who are fence sitters or against the death penalty to change their mind. People like that officer already have a definite and absolute belief in the death penalty. He actually calls the death of another human "another day at the office", seriously. Whether you agree with the death penalty or not, it is hard for me to stomach the execution of another person as being called another day at the office.

And I do think that remaining in prison is a far worse punishment. But most of the privileges afforded to prisoners should be taken away. I don't agree with the living in tents in the middle of the desert, but I don't see why prisoners of VIOLENT crimes should have any luxuries, like air conditioner or sodas.

But, like I've already said, I think that we put a lot of people in prison who really shouldn't be there. To me it is insanity to put a drug user in prison. Here in MS, if you say, get 2 offenses (something relatively minor--as far as crimes are concerned, like shoplifting) and then you are caught with a marijuana SEED that is considered your third strike and you go to prison. Is something like this really doing society any good? While shoplifting is a crime that I can understand being punished for, I don't think that using drugs is a crime. Yes, I know there are evil parents doing crack in front of their 2 year old and stuff like that, but if it weren't crack, there are still plenty of ways for shitty people to be shitty parents. Many of our laws seem arbitrary and appear to punish the lower classes of people far more harshly than the upper classes. I have a ton of opinions about this, so I will shut up.

_________________You can sing the praises of women all day long, but as long as you put a fertilized egg ahead of [their] welfare, you do not really care about them.-Dori 4/07

Do you think that poor people are more prone to commit crimes just because of their socioeconomic situation? I grew up "disadvantaged" but I didn't know it until I went to college. It never occurred to me to do a "wrong" during my growing up years. But that was a different time and I didn't associate with would-be criminals either. The rich committ crimes too, probably just as many as poor people do, only they're more likely to get off with a slap on the wrist because they can hire better attorneys when and if they're ever brought to trial.

When I think of poster-persons for criminal activity never having been punished, I think of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.

_________________

"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."Honore de Balzac

"Democrats work to help people who need help. That other party, they work for people who don't need help. That's all there is to it."~Harry S. Truman

I'd like to think that one doesn't commit crimes because of socio-economic status, but its probably not true. I was very, very poor when I grew up and I knew it. I didn't commit crimes because its just not in my nature. I have a brother who is in prison for armed bank robbery. Who knows. I think that the richer you are, the more you get away with. Rich people can afford to fight things that poorer people cannot. Plus, the rich tend to just have it easier. It makes me think of Robert Downey Jr. He was constantly getting caught with drugs and I know at least once with a prostitute, yet he isn't rotting away in prison. He's making new movies and millions more dollars and people are congratulating him on getting his act together. I don't think he should have gone to prison, but had that happened to anyone who wasn't a millionaire & famous person there's a 99% chance they would be in prison right now.

_________________You can sing the praises of women all day long, but as long as you put a fertilized egg ahead of [their] welfare, you do not really care about them.-Dori 4/07

I wonder if the death penalty would be more of a deterrent if a firing squad was the method used all across the country.

In Utah where this is taking place firing squad is one of the choices offered the condemned. I believe the other two choices are lethal injection or hanging. I still believe that nobody that commits murder or any other crime plans being getting caught and punished so no punishment provides much of a deterrent to the career criminal or sociopath.

lefty wrote:

… I don't agree with the living in tents in the middle of the desert, but I don't see why prisoners of VIOLENT crimes should have any luxuries, like air conditioner or sodas. …

I live in the county that is infamous for its “Tent City.” Tent City is a county jail not a prison. Its inmates are rarely there for felonies and if they are, it is for less than a one-year term. Most are there on drug charges and DUI. This is where “Sherriff Joe” keeps suspected illegal aliens until proven otherwise (assumption of guilt not innocence).

_________________“I'm not a member of any organized party. I'm a Democrat.”-Will Rogers