Ukip pin Newark hope on data access

Ukip's Roger Helmer will assisted in Newark with data from the Electoral Commission. Photo: Getty Images.

Ukip types, already with a spring in their step this week, are further buoyed by the fact that they will be going into the Newark by-election with data up their sleeves. The Tory machine is in full swing on the ground, but the playing field has been levelled.

Whereas in previous by-elections Farage turned up to the pub or hung about meeting people in the market square, Newark will be different. Thanks to the proximity of the crunch Nottinghamshire ballot to the European and local elections, the self-styled ‘people’s army’ will be on an equal footing with the embedded local Tories, as they will be able to see exactly who voted last week.

The Marked Register is a copy ‘of the register used for the election with a mark by each elector that has voted’ that is released shortly after any election. The Electoral Commission guidance states: ‘On request and on payment of a fee, candidates and registered political parties are entitled to copies of the relevant part of the marked register of electors.’ This is then allowed to be used for electoral purposes within the realm of the Data Protection Act.

In layman’s terms that means Ukip will know exactly who voted in Newark last week and can target their resources to those individuals. Given that Ukip took 33 per cent of the vote at the local council elections, compared to 31 per cent the Tories managed, party sources seem rather pleased with this news. It’s a good bet that those who traipsed to the ballot box last Thursday will be more willing to do so on 5 June. Another headache for the Tories who are becoming increasingly concerned, despite their notional 16,000 majority in the seat.

UKIP is simply a course correction to the right as the rudderless Tories head into leftist waters, if the (Labor Lite) Tories do not correct themselves then UKIP will eventually be forced to replace them.

evad666

Go on Newark cheer up the UK stick one to the ruling elite Vote UKIP.

wattys123

Cameron is just ignoring voters and pressing on with the out of control population growth option. How on earth have we got into a situation where anyone in the EU can come here sell The Big Issue and get 25K.

http://www.ukipsupporter.blogspot.co.uk/ Bill Sticker

Clegg was the only pro EU party leader who put his money where his mouth was and actually defended his beloved EU. The voters have now given their verdict on those two debates and handed Nick his P45.

Camerons promises are as empty as his head. His boss Mrs Merkel will shortly be obliged to crown Camerons worst nightmare Herr Juncker as the latest supreme ruler of the EU commission thus putting another nail in his pathetic renegotiation of the damage limiting to our country and its interests he is junketing his way at taxpayers expense to vainly try and acheive.

Anyway Merkel has her own deeper problems than soothing Davey boy as Germanys unemployment figures are starting to rise and adversely affect the Euro as if that blighted artificial currency hgasnt enough problems already dragging it down.

VOTE UKIP STOP THE ROT!

http://twitter.com/JohnSydenham John Sydenham

Clegg is a racist. He wants an EU Political Union so that Europe will have no separate countries, no diversity and so no imagined risk of war. These racists such as Clegg, the racists who want to abolish diversity altogether, are acting out of fear.

It is time that the Elite Racism was stopped. Allow diversity.

evad666

Breitbart carries a piece suggesting the Conservatives are busy talking to the extreme right in Brussels to try to shut out UKIP.
Time for all citizens to rally against such practices.

http://twitter.com/JohnSydenham John Sydenham

UKIP is not a party of the “Right”. It is a libertarian party. Socialists such as National Socialists are on the “Right” – like the BNP or the Chinese.

Tom W Huxley

Mr S needs to spend less time listening to his UKIP chums and more time finding on what’s actually happening in Newark. If Mr S really thinks it’s a “good bet” that people would be more willing to go to the polling stations the second time in a fortnight, I’d happily take that bet on. The feeling on the ground is that the fact that people have just voted last week is a deterrent from them going to vote again next week – and certainly before the Euro elections happened this was a major source of confusion.

Besides, spend five minutes on the ground and you’ll see the playing field is not level at all. By next Thursday I wouldn’t be surprised if every potential Tory voter has been doorstepped by a cabinet minister. How exactly can UKIP match that? Conservative hold.

Dogzzz

You mean there is a huge possibility for former tory voters to give a minister of state a bollocking on the doorstep before voting UKIP? Cool

Penny

Excluding the highly unlikely scenario of being doorstepped by a cabinet minister, I would imagine that UKIP will do what every other party does when they’re mounting a serious challenge: draft in supporters from around the country to do a turn. I’ve known activists travel half-way around the country to help out in such circumstances and my guess is that UKIP activists will be more motivated than most. Perhaps Cameron might make an appearance but given his responsibilities as PM, I’d say that although quite possible, the more likely of the two to show up is Farage.

I’d agree with you about voting last week being a deterrent, but in this case I’m not so sure. Newark is clearly an interesting election – more than most given the media attention both on the area and on UKIP in the EU elections. This attention and suspense may motivate people to go out and vote.

Tom W Huxley

Cameron has already been there several times…

Penny

OK – that will help with the incentive to vote scenario. What would be just as useful is for Cameron / Farage to make an appearance towards the end of the campaign to mop up – if possible – the “undecided” and “waverer” vote.

the viceroy’s gin

No question the establishment will outspend and commit massively more costly resources than UKIP to this by-election. This is a line they must hold, afterall. Let’s see if they can do it.

Penny

Tom – with respect, when I first read your comment it was only one line so my response was tailored to that single comment about Cameron’s visits. You’ve added to it since so I’ll try and reply to the addition.

I’ve worked on more than a dozen campaigns and it’s difficult to gauge effectiveness from the snapshot you might see in a single day. And I’m not being partisan here because I’m now a floating voter – not a committed UKIP’er. In my view, the LibDem’s take some beating in terms of their campaigns. They do all the right things: they keep in touch with the electorate outside of campaigns via “Focus”; they get on the doorstep and their activity on polling day is pretty ….active! These are all extremely important things, and without them, winning is difficult. But they are clearly not the only things that influence voting decision. If that was the case then the LibDem’s would garner many more votes than they currently get.

I’ve no idea how UKIP manage their campaigns. I’d hazard a guess that they are not limited to a gaggle of desperate activists and may have among their ranks some seasoned campaigners who were previously activists in other parties. I’ve no idea if they’ll win, but I would be inclined to think they might reduce the Tory majority.

Tom W Huxley

In the same timespan it’s taken UKIP to put out one piece of literature, the Tories have managed four. In addition to all sorts of other campaign initiatives, up to and including in some cases having the Prime Minister knock on your door. UKIP can’t win here.

Penny

No – perhaps they can’t. But getting four leaflets out as opposed to one is extravagant! The Tories clearly believe they have got a fight on their hands, Tom, because this isn’t common. It may not be that they’re worried about winning but something is up if they are leafleting like this. Perhaps they want to win with a resounding wallop.

Conway

You have forgotten the pesky electorate. They may well be inclined to give Dave a bashing anyway, regardless of the party machinery on the ground.

Tom W Huxley

Newark poll latest:
Tories 36
UKIP 28
Labour 27

Tell me I’m wrong again. Please.

Smithersjones2013

And who have been the most motivated to vote in the run up to the Euros. UKIP voters? Exactly the phenomenon which you describe is possibly the best reason why UKIP have a chance. UKIP voters want it more!

PS Putting aside that clearly many of those potential voters were unimpressed at being glad handed by the government who have put up VAT etc if I was doorstepped (and until last year i was a lifelong Tory voter) by Clarke (especially Clarke), Hague, Liddington, Green, Barker etc. etc. I’d probably need to be restrained from physically removing them from my property!

As Mr Zimmerman sung:

The times they are a-changin’

Tom W Huxley

Ken Clarke is actually rather popular in the part of the constituency he used to represent before the boundary changes came in.

Smithersjones2013

Well he maybe but clearly not enough to swing the Euro results around there the Tories way…….

Chingford Man

Being doorstepped by Cabinet ministers is not the same thing as being won over by them. The Tories are only making this effort because they are scared of a party that lost its deposit there just 4 years ago.

There’s likely going to be a low turnout which at least will give the Tories an excuse if Newark goes pear-shaped for them. But even a good UKIP second place will be a Notice to Quit for Dave.

depee davies

they are going to do a remake of bugs bunny with elmer fudd saying waaaayyyyyccistttt instead of rabbit.

Kitty MLB

This Roger Helmer fellow is quite controversial. I suppose he will add some colour.
And at 70 years of age, experience. I must admit the Conservative chap looks
so very young.

Wessex Man

The Ex Tory MEP Roger Helmer will wipe the floor with him!

Kitty MLB

He is most certainly exceptionally young.

dado_trunking

Wowowowow!

What would the fruitcakes do if Cleggster took the hint and stepped down this week? What would they do if government collapsed, this week?

They would have to stand and deliver something – not in Brussels where we know they never turn up for work. They would HAVE TO turn up for work here. Just read this unofficial UKIP press release:

“Wowowowow! Hold the horses, goat herders. Not so fast. We are not ready yet, we cannot deliver anything. That is why we need Clegg to stay. And by the way, we quite like Scotland to leave the Union first. Only the Clegg Cameron Combo could deliver that. They need to stay in government at all cost.”

Press release ends.

Dogzzz

The tories, labour and liberal democrats abandoned their 2010 manifestos within hours of the polls closing in 2010. NONE of them have their 2015 manifestos ready. As for lazy, some of the UKIP MEPs have the best attendance and voting records in the whole of the EU. UKIP councillors have the best attendance and voting records in the UK.

The government is NOT going to collapse this week, because all those troughers really are in it together. The entire corporate establishment are “in it together” and the it is a conspiracy to screw over the British people.

This is why UKIP exists. To take back our country from those who have sold us out to unelected burueacrats in Brussels and restore our individual sovereign democracy to create ALL our own laws ourselves.

dado_trunking

Indeed – we have been dealing with underperformers all our lives.

Yet, the fruitcake party cannot hack it.
That is the bitter truth. They are wetting their pants should Cleggster step down and bring down government with him. Then they would have to deliver. No more chatting – delivery, just in time and within budget. Yes, we ALL smell the fear right now …

Dogzzz

UKIP would jump at the chance. Bring it on!

terence patrick hewett

O, beware, my lord, of jealousy;
It is the green-ey’d monster, which doth mock
The meat it feeds on. That cuckold lives in bliss,
Who, certain of his fate, loves not his wronger:
But O, what damnèd minutes tells he o’er
Who dotes, yet doubts, suspects, yet strongly loves!

dado_trunking

My mother bore me in the southern wild,
And I am black, but O! my soul is white;
White as an angel is the English child:
But I am black as if bereav’d of light.

terence patrick hewett

And then I’ll stand and stroke his silver hair,
And be like him and he will then love me.

http://twitter.com/JohnSydenham John Sydenham

The real problem is racism of the second kind: the desire to abolish all races by ending diversity. Clegg and Cameron are quite openly racist, they say that they want to abolish Germany and Britain so that there will never be another war in Europe. Avoiding another war is a noble aim but it should be done by mutual understanding, not by the abolition of entire Sovereign Nations. A united Europe will also create another megastate that will increase the risk of war.

Stop elite racism now, preserve diversity.

Turdson Minor

The Electoral Commission is just another fraud on the voters.

IainRMuir

They are not “pinning” their hopes on Newark in the sense that their success depends on it. You make them sound desperate. They have made it clear that overturning a 17,000 majority will not be an easy task.

It is a phrase laced with prejudice. Like describing black tribes in the rain forests of Borneo as “those savage types” It is the sort of prejudice which UKIP are falsely accused of by those who routinely engage in it.

Kaine

Over in the Tower Hamlet’s thread a poster described Rahman as a “third world savage”, and has dozens of likes including from several of our beloved kipper posters.

Sapporo

wwwaaaacistst! wwwaaaacist! Everyone is a wwaaacist!

IainRMuir

Several? So who were the others?

Kaine

Click on the arrow in the comment, it will tell you who liked it.

Sapporo

Says the person who hides their poster history……

Kaine

And? If you want to go troll me across the interwebz there are plenty of ways to find me darling, but I’m not going to leave a trail of breadcrumbs for you. Where’s the fun in that?

I’m flattered you tried though. X

IainRMuir

But not their political views, with no info whatsoever on the 174 guest votes.

girondas

“Over in the Tower Hamlet’s thread a poster described Rahman as a “third
world savage”, and has dozens of likes including from several of our
beloved kipper posters.”

The response I gave to Telemachus applies to you as well:

Telemachus, if racism ever rears it’s head in parliament, and in the
country as a whole, it will because the Labour Party betrayed the
working class whose interest it was founded to represent. You reasoned,
foolishly, that the working class would have no option but to stay with
you, no matter how dishonestly you behaved. Well you were wrong: Your
lack of scruple is exceeded only by your lack of imagination.
The responsibility for any increase in racism will lie with you and your party. You won’t wriggle out of it.

Kaine

So your argument is that UKIP supporters have no agency and are mere Pavlovian responders to stimuli provided by social democratic actors?

Cool.

Dogzzz

Are you judging an entire party, from the comments of a non-representitive few? Because I could do likewise with tories or labour or liberal democrats. People who have used far more colourful, prejudicial and threatening language, than UKIP supporters, on the whole, would use. Labour supporters in particular show very dark, even evil tendencies. Death threats from them seem common, as well as references to putting their opponents in concentration camps or re-education camps or even death camps. Do you really want to compare like-with-like? I am happy to.

Toryjim

Hate to spoil things but very unlikely that the marked register can be turned around quickly enough. Locals/Euros last week and by-election next, marked registers usually take a month to 6 weeks going by my area. So nobody will have a data advantage, well some might if telling was going on on Election Day last week but highly doubt there will be a marked register out before the by-election.

jamesbarn

Lets have a few facts
1) The EU parliament will ignore ALL decent and carry on pushing their super state undemocratic agenda.
2) There will be NO meaningful renegotiations without Cameron invoking Article 50 which is required by members who intend to leave the EU
3) Therefore any attempt to renegotiate without Article 50 being invoked will be brushed aside.
4) Cameron has already said that he will not leave the EU and will not invoke Article 50 therefore he will be either totally ignored of offered miniscule concessions which he will try to con the British public with as did Harold Wilson
5) However we must not underestimate the vulnerability of Tory and Labour MPs whose careers could and may well come to an abrupt end at the next election as have the careers of many long standing MEPs this week.
6) Faced with the prospect of unemployment there is a distinct possibility that some will change allegiance to UKIP
7) Failing that happening the Tory party will split asunder. The Liberals are already at this stage.
Interesting times ahead

Sapporo

Anyone who watched Van Rompy’s speech, yesterday, will understand you are correct on 1).

Kaine

Labour increased it’s number of MEPs. In 2010 Labour went down to its bedrock of support. Since then it recaptured around a million Lib Dems, who tend to vote, so even if UKIP were drawing support in Labour heartlands that is counteracted. With a couple of local exceptions, if you’re a Labour MP now you will be in 2015.

http://english-pensioner.blogspot.co.uk/ english_pensioner

Surely a lot depends on the Labour supporters. Will they vote for Labour knowing it is unlikely that Labour could win, or will they turn to UKIP as the best alternative in the hope of blocking the Tories. I suspect that if I were a Labour supporter, I’d vote UKIP.

recklessness

I’m not sure the average Labour supporter comprehends tactical voting…certainly the ones I know are all the …’mi father voted labour….’ types.

http://english-pensioner.blogspot.co.uk/ english_pensioner

I get the impression that a lot of those brought up to be Labour supporters don’t bother to vote as they aren’t to keen on Labour but couldn’t ever vote Tory. The LibDems did provide an alternative, but now it could be UKIP.

Smithersjones2013

Labour and Libdem voters are much more open to tactical voting than Tories. Its possible that they could vote UKIP to ‘Stop the Tories’.

The Labour party will not recommend it though because Newark was not that long ago a Labour seat. Its seats like Newark that Labour need to do well in in by elections to prove they are on the march to Downing Street. If they come third the only hope Milband has not to be the story of failure is if the Tories lose to UKIP. Then the humiliation of defeat would be shared between the two ruling parties.

http://wrinkledweasel-resurgam.blogspot.co.uk/ wrinkledweasel

Bacon Butty.
Swiss Bob. Care to comment?

Swiss Bob

Must have been the context.

Mynydd

The Newark by-election will be about domestic not European policies. Two UKIP policies doing the round are: privatise the NHS, and the doctor’s tax of £25 for each visit to your GP.
Both Conservative and Labour have concluded that Mr Farage was given an easy ride, policy wise, in the run-up to the last elections. This time around his policies, not Mr Farage personally, will be relentlessly attacked. Also you can expect a much greater turn-out to the advantage of the Tories.

Sapporo

The NHS needs change, but these are just lies peddled by the political/media establishment. The £25 charge to see a GP was originally proposed by Labour. Indeed, their latest proposal was revealed in March: “Everyone in the UK should start paying a £10-a-month NHS “membership charge” to save it from sliding into a decline that threatens its existence, a former Labour health minister has urged. Lord Warner, who served under Tony Blair, warns that the NHS will become unsustainable without new sources of funding and painful changes.”
Of course, we can expect another anti-UKIP media onslaught. However, people don’t like bullies and UKIP intend to flood Newark with activists to personally counter our corrupt media.

Wessex Man

Why of course he will just as he and Ukip were relentlessly attacked by the special units created by the three main parties at Westminster running up to the Euro elections, that worked well didn’t it? You learn nothing, you don’t take into account that the British people are sick to the back teeth with your parties and have far better ways to comunicate with each other.

Of course you aided by the feeble BBC, who had to suspend their head producer from their news channel and another woman, who incredibly said all UKiip members should be put into baths of acid and most of Fleet Street.

One day your parties and you will wake up and sniff the winds of change!

Airey Belvoir

The ‘journomummy’ anti-UKIP gaffe was real, but the acid bath one was a spoof.

Dogzzz

Privatising the NHS is an EU policy. Charging a doctor’s tax to see the doctor has been suggested as a serious policy position by a labour lord a few weeks ago and a tory MP yesterday. Neither of those policies are UKIP policy. UKIP should do rather well on those.

Dogzzz

“Both Conservative and Labour have concluded that Mr Farage was given an
easy ride, policy wise, in the run-up to the last elections”

So they have concluded that having the entire political/corporate establishment gang up and attack UKIP as racist bigots did not work, so they are all going to gang up and lie about UKIP’s policy position instead?

Trouble is, after the last 5 weeks of the entire establishment flooding the media with non-stop hysterical lies about UKIP, nobody in their right mind is going to believe the media ever again.

the viceroy’s gin

Unfortunately, that isn’t true. The establishment isn’t the establishment for no good reason. They control the high ground. They have the heavy artillery. LibLabCon has all the advantages, and if they can lure their enemy into a fight on their ground, they can defeat them. And they’ll work together to do so. LibLabCon are associates, and UKIP is their only enemy.

Reconstruct

I dunno, you can have all the data you need, but if your candidate sports that type of moustache, you’re in trouble.

Swiss Bob

Have put a tenner on UKIP to win Newark at 3.65.

Pretty sure Labour voters will vote UKIP just so the Tories lose, so seems good odds!

the viceroy’s gin

…hadn’t thought of that. Lab tactical voting to support UKIP and screw the Cameroons?

Swiss Bob

It’s worth a tenner!

Sapporo

The Tories are in trouble. Their activist base has disintegrated. They are haemorrhaging members and are left with just an elderly social scene and those with political career ambitions. They can only rely on their media network to smear and sneer at UKIP, which has been successful, so far, in halting the middle-class switch to UKIP, but after a while, the bitter rantings of white, middle-class, London enclave residing hacks will fall on deaf ears. Similar to Labour, the Tories are teetering on bankruptcy, whereas UKIP are debt free. This reflects the different economic outlooks: debt and money printing for LibLabCon and living within our means for UKIP.

Dogzzz

Indeed, one of labour’s biggest donors switched to UKIP last week and he encourages all labour voters to do the same.

Kitty MLB

Well one can only hope.

David Lindsay.

You wish, Kitty
You wish

Wessex Man

David! dear boy where have you been? have you finished your latest novel? Is it about the unstoppable rise of the peoples party?

the viceroy’s gin

No, it’s not that guy, which is too bad. I’d love to see him backing and filling and blowing smoke out of his pants cuffs right about now.

Ricky Strong

Speaking of missing persons, what ever happened to Russel?

Kitty MLB

Although I am a cat person Labradors are my favourite dogs,
so please change the picture. And where is the wasp, buzzing
elsewhere is he. Also wishes do sometimes come true.

Kaine

He wasn’t one of Labour’s biggest donors, not even Breitbart said that when handing you your talking points.

Smithersjones2013

No Labour’s biggest donors are all trade unions and given Labour are their wholly owned subsidiary they are hardly going to defect.

Kaine

The Labour Party and the trade unions are both parts of the labour movement. Donations are given by ordinary working people, who are perfectly free to opt out of the political fund. They are allocated by democratic vote at policy conferences.

If UKIP actually appealed to the membership they could attract support, as occured with the RMT and TUSC.

the viceroy’s gin

…yes, and those “ordinary working people” “donations” are all perfectly anonymous, right?

You know, so if they “opt out”, there’s no union goon intimidation, right?

Right.

Who would ever suspect coercion from a union?

Kaine

Much as you might enjoy your fantasy of being coerced by a big scary union shop steward, I’m sorry to tell you it will remain just a fantasy Ginny. X

the viceroy’s gin

Right.

global city

NO2EU was a deliberate false initiative to enable the unions to deny UKIP funds, as they put the anti EU ash into that instead.

Kaine

I do wish the trade union movement was half as organised as that conspiracy would require us to be.

One of olabour’s biggest private donors. Of course the corrupt unions pay most to labour and buy influence and policies directly for that money.

Kaine

No he wasn’t, unless you can find some evidence he was. He was a a party member who male regular medium sized donations. Hence why Breitbart were the only ones who thought it a story.

I continue to be amused that the kippers who scream about how the ‘MSM’ misrepresents threats to the establishment so eagerly swallow the lies about the trade unions.

global city

what he could have put was ‘one of Labour’s only donors’

Kaine

Labour has the largest membership of any UK political party, and millions of affiliate members. So no, he couldn’t.

telemachus

The performance of Cameron since the 22nd belies your trite post
The Tories are strong
The role of UKip is to split the Tory vote of the 43 marginals next May 7 and deliver Westminster to the forces of reason

Tom Allalone

And now you’re cheerleading for Cameron, still, someone who idolises Stalin must be used to accepting and supporting sudden policy reversals. Oceania is a war with Eastasia, Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia

telemachus

No please read my posts carefully
It is where we get to in the end

saffrin

Typo telemachus, you missed a t.

Smithersjones2013

Putting aside that your argument is increasingly disjointed and incoherent, let’s look at Kent to see how ‘strong’ both establishment ruling parties are where in 2005 the Tories had 10 seats and Labour had 7 seats. In the Labour disaster of 2010 all 17 seats went to the Tories. Now what happened in the Euros? In the council areas that covered 16 out of the 17 constituencies UKIP came top with the Tories second. Only Tunbridge Wells held out for the Tories. Labour at their best could only come third and in doing so barely managed to poll half the votes UKIP did.

Now without those seats in 2005 Blair’s majority would have been 14 seats less. Miliband will need such seats to ensure a solid majority. It doesn’t look like he will get them. Now if that is replicated across the South and Midlands (and there are several other counties that seem to be becoming UKIP heartlands) then at best Miliband will have a weak small majority or worse a minority government that needs a second party to prop it up in some form.

We have seen how devastating such weakness can be to a party. Just ask Cameron and with UKIP pitching to Labour voters a weak Labour government would be the perfect hunting ground to increase their vote share.

One things for sure Milband’s “One Nation” does not seem to include the South and Midlands at all. It does seem to me the one word Miliband was looking for was “screwed” and he is……..

As for the Tories I wonder if Lynton Crosby has sufficient resources to shore up another 50 to 100 seats because its clear from Kent there are a significant number of Tory seats that are under threat from UKIP and an increasing number of seats where they are so far behiind (24% behind in Thanet with 11 constituencies, including all 7 that were Labour in 2005 in Kent where the Tories came more than 15 points behind UKIP in the Euros) that it would not be a surprise if the Tories lose those seats.

The reality is in counties like Kent it increasingly looks as if UKIP has replaced Labour……….

Athelwulf

Useful data, but then the EU turnout was of the order of 30-35%, as I recall. In a GE the turnout might be 55-65%. We don’t know how much the UKIP vote would hold up with a larger percentage of the electorate bothering to vote

the viceroy’s gin

On the other hand, UKIP is on the rise, and while a larger electoral turnout might tend to flatten out their support as you mention, some of that may be mitigated if UKIP maintains momentum and growth.

Mike

Your second point is probably true as given the skewed voting system the UK has, thats the best strategy to take.

As for Cameron is strong, you’re having a laugh surely. He’s still making lame gestures over what he wants to re-negotiate in the EU but hasn’t got any chance of getting it. Nobody believes him anymore.

telemachus

I do

Alexsandr

that says it all really…

jmjm208

I would like to see UKIP take the seat but they won’t because they have chosen the wrong candidate.

Kitty MLB

I said myself he’s a rather controversial candidate. Why on earth
is Nigel Farage not standing. Whilst he is basking in the sunshine.
Maybe if they lose he would think it looks bad on UKIP.

Penny

I don’t think it would have been wise for Farage to stand in Newark, Kitty, because of the EU elections. As the leader of a new party, and one which stood a good chance of winning,he was bound to be in the media headlights, I’m not sure how he could have put in the time necessary to run a decent local campaign in Newark. Strategy-wise, it wouldn’t make sense.

Not a single one of those opponents would do differently, photon. They may bluster and mock, but anyone who has any involvement even at local politics level would know that Farage would have been an utter fool to have stood in Newark at this particular time.

http://google.co.eu Sentinel

UKIP lost the Eastleigh by-election in 2013 by fewer than two thousand votes. If they should lose again by a similar margin wouldn’t that raise questions about Farage’s decision?

Penny

Could Farage standing have made the critical difference? It’s an interesting point, Sentinel. I don’t know of course, but I do think it was mostly the timing of all this that led to his decision.

He was belting around the country giving the town hall-type campaigns that he favours (rightly, in my view), appearing for media interviews and probably heavily involved in EU election-linked issues. To then add to that by fighting a hard battle in Newark in which he’d have to have a strong presence would – if he could even find the time – be spreading himself too thinly on both grounds. He might end up losing out on both fronts.

If he’d won Newark he’d have to quit as an MEP so I suppose in addition to the timing of both elections, he was faced with the choice of possibly going to Westminster (plus’s and minus’s with that one) or leading what was likely to be a larger party in Europe, comprising many MEP’s new to the job.

Finally – perhaps he also realised that, if he’d stood, the media would have had a whale of a time with the “one man band” stuff. I think Farage realises that he must step back a little in order to allow the public to see that he has other strong politicians in his party. Now is a good time to do that.

Weighing up these things, I’d say he made the sensible and right decision.

Rtd Colonel

The difference being the postal vote … expect that to be a common experience moving forward.

Kaine

Because he would have lost and dented the halo.

Smithersjones2013

Farage made it very clear why he is not standing. He is not local to Newark. He has no link with the area. He does not want to parachute himself in there (particularly after his previous flying exploits) when there were obvious alternatives such as Helmer.

No Farage has bigger fish to fry just now such developing the 2015 manifesto and which seat he will contest in 2015. Exactly which of the number of ripe Kent constituencies (given his ‘Man of Kent’ birthright) will he stand in?

realfish

‘Farage made it very clear why he is not standing…’

You forgot to mention that he was afraid that a defeat for him there would have been a disaster, indicating that UKIP had passed its high water mark.

the viceroy’s gin

Well, the meeeej-yuh muppets who previous to that point had all been out shrieking about UKIP being “waaaaaaycist” would have called it a disaster, of course, but what’s that got to do with the price of fish?

global city

that is an assertion..and a wrong one.

If you bothered to think it through then you would realise that he would be risking that where ever he stood, and he has stated for two years that he will stand in 2015 GE.

Leo McKinstry

And how exactly is Roger Helmer local to Newark?

MrJones

time will tell

Rillian

I thought that too to start with but now I don’t know. it looks like they may be very Conservative in the area, so he might be just the right guy for the job. He was a Conservative, a long time ago.

Ed_Burroughs

I fear you are correct. Helmer is so fitting of the negative UKIP stereotype it’s as if the decision to stand him was act of humorous self-deprecation.

saffrin

Never mind Newark, what about our secret ballot?
Secret to the State and anyone with money enough.
Jeez, if Labour win 2015, they’ll be knocking on 66% of the population’s doors with jobsworths in tow.

Swiss Bob

The Speccie has banned any mention of bacon b_u_t_t_y_s.

Truly they are headed in the direction of The New Statesman.

dado_trunking

The entire nation is toast.
Do we all really really want change? Of course not. It’s the reactionary right now demanding it, no one else. But could they deliver if Cleggster stepped down this week? Could they actually face the responsibilty?
Of course not – UKIP supporters are scared, their party would actually have to get up and DO SOME WORK!
That is why UKIP is campaigning now for Clegg to stay in power.
Yes, you heard me – UKIP support Clegg now. Hilarious!

Swiss Bob

UKIP supporters are scared?

Best election results ever, possibility of winning a seat in the HoC in Newark and they now have a far more professional network.

I think you may be projecting a touch.

Wessex Man

dado is just trying to put more dreadful spin on us and only succeeds in makig dafo dado look silly!

Smithersjones2013

UKIP would be as ready for a General election now as the Tories were in 2007 and the Tories, Libdems and Labour are now. None of the parties would be ready.

As for UKIP supporting Clegg? When you have a gift that’s never stops giving why would you want to get rid of it?

Once again UKIP uses common sense whilst the establishment party flunkies offer nothing but sneering nonsense…

In any case what self respecting Libdem politician is going to be fool enough to put his name forward to lead his party into election annihilation. Whatever the landscape a new leader would still lose considerable credibility and be open to negative propaganda from the other parties.

The smart move is to sit back let Clegg take the blame, knife him in the aftermath and lead the party after the 2015 election. Who knows Labour or Tories might need a coalition partner. Not just party leader but Deputy Prime Minister might be on offer. That would be so much easier to pull off if ones hands are not stained with the blood of many defeated fellow Libdem MPs (likely to be the Libdems worst loss of Parliamentary representation since 1931).

The smart money was always on Clegg remaining until 2015.

telemachus

That is only to the good

UniteAgainstSocialism

Racism should be stamped out and racists should be jailed, have their property confiscated and then deported

I guess singular could be Buttie, the Internet is ambivalent. The dictionary is not, singular is B_u_t_t_y.

Smithersjones2013

But you have ‘beauty’ and ‘beauties’, ‘yuppy’ and ‘yuppies’. ‘ies’ is a common plural for words ending in ‘y’

Mr Grumpy

“Tom, D*ck and Harry” is a no-no too. Sexism, I suppose.

@PhilKean1

.
I think this is the most crucial By-Election in Britain’s history.

Just listen to the arrogant and dismissive statements being given in Brussels by Cameron and his fellow Federalists, and it is pretty clear that UKIP remains the British peoples’ one-and-only hope of bringing an end to economic and political union.

I mean, who couldn’t have guessed that, instead of a collective announcement that they were going to halt the creation of an EU superstate, EU leaders would – instead – satisfy voters’ anger by, and get this, doing more to create growth and jobs.

So there we have it. Free movement – (unlimited immigration) – and being forced to live under an EU dictatorship modelled on the Chinese one-party-state system was not the reason voters across Europe came out in large numbers to register their protest.

If UKIP can win in Newark, it could mean them winning up to ten seats at the 2015 General Election. And ten seats in 2015 should hopefully mean 50 to 100 in 2020.
.

The_Missing_Think

Nope, overturning a 16k majority, with 34%, translates as UKIP getting a Westminster majority in 2015, with the 301 seats needed.

The four horse race factor, lowers the majority needed percentage and the seats required, down to 34%, and 301… ‘Read it’ evidence here:

Realistically we only need enough seats to force them to give us a referendum – on our terms.

Dogzzz

You mean one with an honest choice, of voting to integrate into a federal United States of Europe, adopting the Euro and becoming a fully signed up member, or leaving the EU and negotiating a trade deal arrangement, a simple customs union sort of thing?

That would be much more honest than the tory bait and switch con.

Druth

True. Given the appalling way in which the Euro’s were run we also need some guidelines about how the debate will be treated in the media.

If it happens the referendum needs to be fair so that the nation can properly put the matter to bed and move on.

HookesLaw

Where ia the proposal for us to join a federal Europe? Where is the proposal for anyone to do that?
We are not even in the euro. Where is the proposal from anyone to join the euro?. Salmond does not want to join the euro.
You are making a bogus choice and then avoiding what a ‘trade deal’ would entail.
You pretend that the tories could not get a worthwhile deal from within the EU, but happily assert that Farage could get better deal having walked out.
No trade deal other than the one Norway has would be on offer and that involves Schengen. You and you fellow nutjobs are dim beyond belief. This is clearly self evident from the way you waffle on to each other.

foxoles

Interesting. With UKIP already achieving 28% nationally, outside London, 35% doesn’t look as impossible as it once may have.

Read item 4 in Andrew’s blog. His belief, correct – in my opinion – is why we are seeing the EU speed up its efforts to create economic and political union.
.

Mr Grumpy

Marked Register for sale? This is outrageous! When did it happen? Why don’t I know about it? What price secret ballot?

Kaine

It doesn’t say who you voted for, or even if you voted at all rather than spoiling your ballot. It simply says you turned up on the day.

saffrin

Yeah right.

Kaine

Sorry, I forgot I was dealing with a conspiracist nutter.

saffrin

We didn’t knowing give our democracy, our country, our freedom of self-determination, of course there has been a conspiracy, one that has gone on more than 50 years.
Our politicians have all know since the 1950′s the EU would become an all controlling politburo style run dictatorship.
The loss of our secret ballot is nothing, it will be manipulated on-line soon.

Kaine

QED

Penny

No – really, local parties don’t know any more about you than your name and address, and whether you voted.

On polling day local party reps. ask if you’ll give them your polling card number just before you go in to vote. All this does is to enable them to mark you off of the register. If during a canvass you’ve said you’ll definitely vote for them, marking you off helps their on-the-day analysis of their chances of winning and stops them knocking on your door to ask you to go out and vote.

Mr Grumpy

The key word here is “ask”, is it not? I’ve always assumed that if you say “no. thanks, I’d rather not”, or words to that effect, that’s the end of it. Now it transpires that they can find out anyway.
How many voters know that? How many would be happy if they knew?

Penny

It’s honestly not sinister. In a nutshell, here’s how local parties manage campaigns:

They have an electoral register from the get-go, so when they knock on your door they know pretty much the only details they’re ever going to know – your name, address and electoral register number. The point of canvassing is to ask if they’ve got your vote and depending on your answer, they’ll mark you down as definite, probably, unlikely, definitely not – and so on (depends on the party, I’d imagine). That completes the sum total of all the information they’ll ever have.

Come the day of the election, party reps (just ordinary local people – not officials) will sit outside the polling station and ask for your number. You are under no obligation to give it, of course, but the reasons for asking are not remotely sinister. On election day, one of the challenges is to get your vote out. So if, for example, you’ve told the Tories that they’ve got your vote, they’ll have mark you down as such when they canvassed. When your number rolls into their local HQ, they’ll cross you off the list. Thus they a) know you’ve voted and, if you’ve stuck by your original decision, canvassed on the doorstep, you’ve voted for them and b) they don’t have to knock on your door to get you out to the polling station. That’s really all that happens and it goes no further than the local party who never know if you did actually stick by your original voting intention anyway!

Mr Grumpy

I know all this and don’t have any problem with it. I do have a problem with them buying a marked register and finding out whether I voted without my permission.

Penny

Why do you have a problem? That’s a genuine question – not a “tone”-type question!.

Mr Grumpy

Why do you have a problem with me having a problem?

Penny

I don’t – not at all. I was just curious in case I was overlooking something.

Mr Grumpy

“Ukip will know exactly who voted in Newark last week” it says above the line. Replace “Ukip” (if necessary) with whatever party you have nightmares about.

Penny

But they won’t know who for. It’s just a record of people who exercied their right to vote.

As far as I know, anyone can inspect the marked register, but not everyone can buy it.

I honestly can’t imagine a local party doing anything more with a marked register than using it to cut down on wasted time and effort.

Mr Grumpy

Imagine an election that was highly polarised on ethnic lines. Does it not occur to you that there is potential for abuse?

Imagine voting (or not voting) in East Ukraine, say, in the knowledge that a marked register was going to be published. Would that knowledge increase your confidence?

Penny

Yes, I kind of get your point but we aren’t in the situation you describe.

I’d imagine it also works in a good-and-open kind of way. If, for example, you’re a postal or proxy voter and – for whatever reasons – have niggles about whether your vote was counted – then you can check via the marked register.

Mr Grumpy

If that is the only reason you need to give to get hold of the complete marked register, that would imply that access is (contrary to what another responder to my original comment asserted) to all intents and purposes unrestricted.

Can we agree that it would be good and open for the Electoral Commission to canvass ordinary voters’ views on this?

Penny

I’m only going from memory here, but I think anyone can access a marked register to inspect it. I’m not even suggesting that you need a reason as I don’t know if that is the case. Inspecting something, though, is different from buying it – that it restricted. You’d need remarkable cognitive skills to memorise such a register if you were not one of those permitted to buy it.

In principle I’d agree that asking voters is good and open, but it’s like everything in data land: if you hide information you’ll be accused of doing things behind closed doors; if you open it up to the public you’ll face other accusations. It will be difficult to please everyone.

the viceroy’s gin

It’s just more of political careerists slicing and dicing the electorate for their own purposes, rather than focusing on issues and the People as a whole, and embracing policies of value and sharing them with all of the People.

Electioneering as an end to itself is what’s wrong with selling or disclosing voter turnout lists.

Penny

I’m not sure I’d agree that it’s political careerists at work – although I suppose that’s quite an open-to-interpretation type of term!.

Generally speaking, elections are run by volunteer activists and so canvassing is sometimes limited by the number of activists and the time available to them. If they’re short of time or they have a large area to canvass it makes sense not to waste time knocking on the doors of people who have been previously known to be anti the whole political thing, or who never vote, or who have slammed the door in your face because they hate your party. Sometimes campaigners, short of time, will just canvass those who have previously been supportive.

the viceroy’s gin

The process shouldn’t be constructed to cater to political careerists. Some may want it to be, but the point of it is to cater to the electorate as a whole. The careerists not having “sufficient time” to cater to their political careerism doesn’t enter into it.

The People’s privacy isn’t to be sacrificed to enable careerist politicians.

Penny

I don’t think it is constructed to cater to political careerists, viceroy’s gin – but I’m genuinely curious as to why you see canvassing in that light. I’m not sure how else a political party can get its message out and talk to people on the doorstep – thereby answering any questions they have and, in so doing, hearing their views, too. Certainly, in local elections, there’s no TV coverage and very little press coverage. What people learn about what each party proposes to do is very much down to leaflets (paid for by local fund-raising efforts and not central HQ) and getting out on the doorstep.

As for my comment about sufficient time – in addition to what I wrote about activists being volunteers, possibly canvassing large areas, it is also the case that there is only a limited window of time in which to canvass.

This is a genuine question, posed out of interest: what do you think a political party should do in the run-up to an election if canvassing in its current form doesn’t appeal?

the viceroy’s gin

It is you that “sees it in that light”, when you referenced “sufficient time” for the careerists to have their careerist needs catered to.

You’re building a strawman, if you claim that I’ve spoken against politicking. I haven’t. Please dispense with the strawman. It’s cheap.

You want to invade others’ privacy to enable careerist politicians and their hackish ways.

Penny

I am genuinely flummoxed here. I haven’t attempted to build straw men. I’m reading your comments and attempting to answer them from what I know is a factual basis. If I’m misunderstanding you, can’t you simply explain how and why rather than assume I know what you mean but am behaving in a “cheap” fashion?

Penny

I’ll just add a point about “sufficient time” – this is connected to the legal requirements surrounding the use of party funds.

the viceroy’s gin

It’s connected to careerist political types, who you seek to enable at the expense of others’ privacy .

Penny

This is getting daft. I’m not “enabling ” anything – or even trying to. I was attempting to explain how it all works! That is all. You think something in the current system of canvassing is wrong (at least, that’s my impression) fine – I accept that, but you don’t expand on that very much. You’ve just made enormous leaps of judgement about me and based your comments on those.

the viceroy’s gin

No, you’re building an addition onto your strawman now. Please stop, it’s cheap. Nobody has mentioned a word about “canvassing”. That’s your strawman. Stop it. It’s cheap. Are you really this dense? If you are, then you really shouldn’t presume to “explain how it all works”, because you’re too dense for that.

Just keep it simple. You careerist political types have no right to invade others’ privacy to enable your careerist political hackism.

Penny

The point I’m trying to make is that electoral registers are used in canvassing. This is what I don’t understand. You’ve nothing against politiking – but this uses electoral registers. This is where I’m either missing your point or not understanding you.

For the last time – I’m not building strawmen, I’m, not a politician. I’m getting teed-off with being called “cheap”

the viceroy’s gin

You have to be the stupidest person on the internet.

You are as thick as two planks.

Penny

Perhaps it is you who is missing the point. But I’ll never know because you seem to prefer assessing who I am – completely incorrectly, I might add – and then insulting what doesn’t exist.

But you’re right – this is going nowhere except allowing you to name call.

the viceroy’s gin

No, I’m missing nothing, and certainly not the fact that you are as dumb as a stump.

the viceroy’s gin

My posts are very clear. You must be a politician.

And as you plainly don’t intend to engage the argument, or can’t, then let’s just again deliver the message that you careerist political types are not welcome to invade others’ privacy to enable your own careerism.

the viceroy’s gin

I see you’re typing again. You shouldn’t bother, if your point is to again say you don’t understand. You seem to be the only one in here not getting the message about these practices.

Penny

I’d written before I saw your comment. I have been trying to engage in good faith. I’m sorry you have taken my comments amiss.

the viceroy’s gin

I haven’t taken your comments amiss. I’m reading them and I understand them fully, and have responded to them fully. You are incapable or unwilling to do likewise.

Penny

Incapable – but only because I really and genuinely am not sure what the overall point is.

the viceroy’s gin

Good luck to you, and it’s best we leave it there.

Penny

No, they aren’t clear to me. And I’m not a politician. I was once a councillor – but haven’t been for a few years and am not even a member of a political party. But, having been involved I do know what happens in campaigns.

I’m happy to engage in the argument – but I’m honestly and genuinely not sure what it is!

I’ve written quite a few comments here of late in which I think I’ve demonstrated my own disquiet so I’ve no idea why I’m suddenly seen as being in hock to it all.

the viceroy’s gin

Yes, you’re a politician type. That’s clear.

Penny

Oh, for heaven’s sake. You’ve only given me a few lines of discussion with which to try and understand what your overall point is.

the viceroy’s gin

Everybody else seems to understand the issues, but you seem incapable or unwilling.

As mentioned, best to leave it there.

Penny

I am not unwilling. I’m seeing the issue from what I know of how campaigns work. I’m trying to explain this – just how an electoral register is used at present. That is pretty much all I’ve done. What I am incapable of is figuring out which *part* of the use of electoral registers you think is wrong.

the viceroy’s gin

So you’re incapable of recognizing the invasion of privacy you’re advocating, in support of you careerist political types?

Seriously, you’re incapable of recognizing that above argument, that’s been presented to you about a dozen or more times up and down this discussion?

Are you really and truly this thick? Really? That’s the intelligence of a garden tool. Are you going to type again that you don’t understand, and acknowlege your lack of sentience once again? Aren’t you a bit embarrassed, or does that level of ignorance not bother you?

Penny

Why do you have to be insulting? I’m not “advocating” anything because all I’ve done is explain how it works. There is nothing in my comments that suggests anything other than that.

I’m trying to understand which aspect of the use of the electoral register you object to. The one that is used when a local politician canvasses is essentially the same thing as a marked register. This is where I’m getting lost.

the viceroy’s gin

You are too stupid to explain anything. Just stop. Seriously.

Alexsandr

they don’t need to ask where I live. They know who everybody is.

Penny

I’m not sure I understand what you mean.

Alexsandr

Small town. every body knows everybody. So when you go in, the party box tickers just say ‘hello {insert forename}’ Don’t need any numbers or anything.

Penny

That’s very unusual. Must be quite hard work for the local parties.

the viceroy’s gin

Yes, and it’d be a shame if careerist political types were put out, eh?

the viceroy’s gin

It’s amusing that you don’t seem to understand much.

2trueblue

No, but on the back of your card, they go down the list and get to the number and give you your voting slip, so yes it is all married up and it is possible to check who you voted for. Not saying they do it,not saying they don’t, but the possibility is there. They can do it. It is an invasion of your privacy.

http://www.frankfisher.org Frank Fisher

They do do it and always have – anyone who has ever voted communist, for example, will be on a list somewhere, and I dare say BNP and NF too. UKIP, I doubt it – too many.

Swiss Bob

People who voted, not how they voted.

RoadrunnerNick

The marked register has been available for decades and provides some transparency and a guard against election-rigging. The various parties buy a copy (or not if they are off their oats).

Mr Grumpy

I have been around for decades as a voter and some-time party activist and this is the first I’ve ever heard of it.

I’ve found one council’s application form. It looks as if anyone who can dream up a plausible reason for wanting it can get their hands on it.

Why is “transparency” a good thing here? Controlled access where there is suspicion of fraud is one thing, selling it to any Tom, D*ck and Harry is another matter.

Access to this information could be a very useful means for some candidates to put pressure on members of their “communities”.

RoadrunnerNick

In my neck of the woods, it is only those involved in standing in an election who can have a marked register. The marked register means that those administering the election are being watched by those whose fate lies partly in their hands. Also, if one spots that a resident who one knows died six months before polling day is ticked as having turned up at the polling station, it alerts one to possible electoral fraud (or a miracle).

colliemum

Yep – the playing field has been levelled a bit, and we’d be stupid not to do what LibLabCon have been doing all the time. In fact, they did say after Eastleigh and Wythenshaw that this is the way the game is being played.

telemachus

The Newark folk are reasonable people
Cameron in fact had a good Euro Election as an incumbent PM
He has had an even better performance since
His sage words of change are credible
As was his performance in Brussels last night
For Farage it will be a big let down

Democratic_deficit

How is anything he said credible? All platitudes and politicking. He can’t change anything in the EU and he knows it. The electorate saw him as a snake-oil salesman last week and I doubt their opinion will have changed since.

saffrin

They won’t be thinking about changing their plan, only the way they spin it and what they keep secret.

Dogzzz

I will only accept that their weasel words are honest when the EU abandons the goal of “ever closer union” and when the EU gives up it’s power to set any of our laws.

Whatever Cameron said yesterday was irelevant. Empty platitudes spouted in knee-jerk fear of an increasingly enlightened electorate. The EU will not change their goal. Only their routemap to it and their propaganda about it.

So long as the EU Commission still can set our laws, nothing of significance will have changed in the EU at all.

Once we can set ALL our own laws again, then I will know things have changed.

Until then, I am voting UKIP.

Alexsandr

but you have not taken your argument forward. The EU will not allow change. The only way to get change is to leave the EU. Otherwise we accept it in all its ‘glory’

telemachus

See my reply to Herr Baron

Kitty MLB

David Cameron doesn’t need or want any defence from a socialist
little wasp. The Conservative Party really is no concern of yours old fellow. So no need to share your opinion on this subject. Which we know is your unique style of gerrymandering.

telemachus

Ladybird
I have no interests in Osborne’s band of plutocrats whose miscreant member created this debacle in the first place
Other than to take delight when I wake up next Friday week to hear that they have stuck one on Farage

Kitty MLB

Oh some wee wasp has the cheek of the
devil.Considering their party has over the
years been swimming in a socialist red
sea of miscreants.

telemachus

You have to understand Ladybird that it is all about tactics
There is no direct Socialist interest in Newark
But I do not want a racist in parliament

Kitty MLB

There are far too many socialists in Westminster. Its not representative of
the UK. And who the devil does George Galloway represent.. In the best interests
of the UK is he? And Caroline Lucas upsetting
the police- tut tut ! All you lefties have no
idea how to behave. Oh and Dennis Skinner.

girondas

“But I do not want a racist in parliament”

Telemachus, if racism ever rears it’s head in parliament, and in the country as a whole, it will because the Labour Party betrayed the working class whose interest it was founded to represent. You reasoned, foolishly, that the working class would have no option but to stay with you, no matter how dishonestly you behaved. Well you were wrong: You lack of scruple is exceeded only by your lack of imagination.
The responsibility for any increase in racism will lie with you and your party. You won’t wriggle out of it.

Kitty MLB

Very eloquently put and profoundly correct,
Sir/Madam.If racism exists its because Labours
failed multiculturalism. Stuffing people together
like sardines regardless of the consequences.
Knowing that there own voters would suffer more then comfortable tories and thinking
their voters would never have any other option.
Now I must go and deal with a pheasant.

Cameron went to Eton.
One of the things they teach is; At banquets, use utensils outside in.

pattif

If DC hadn’t spent his time in the past few days slagging off Farage, we might be inclined to give him a hearing. As it is, it’s apparent that he has learnt nothing, and still holds ordinary voters in contempt.

Baron

Telemachus, for the EU read Germany, the Frau is the one calling the shots because her Volk are making money, giving her the power, influence ……. If this is only partly true, ask yourself a question. Why should she back any changes to the monstrosity to please the boy when it was the monstrosity as it stands that has been enabling her Volk to be making money, giving her the power ….

The only thing the boy could do is to get some trivial concessions then lie, trying to convince the masses the concessions are meaningful.

telemachus

If Frau Hitler wants the means to control national budgets in the Eurozone she needs changes in the Treaty
To facilitate this she needs Cameron
Cameron will have a quid pro quo

saffrin

If PM’s want to control anything in their own country’s they should leave the EU asap.