Friday, August 24, 2012

Fictional abuse and female absolution

All you good women out there, I hope to have your forgiveness if my words appear insensitive or without understanding, as my innermost intentions are actually to create and facilitate a place of peace on both sides.

This blog originally stemmed from some bad feelings. So let's just go ahead and get these out of the way from the get-go: I am someone who has suffered at the hands of either "angry" or "bad" women too many times in my lifetime for reasons that I cannot understand, which I inevitably have somehow pieced together or traced back through an attempted means of rationale to the fact that I am a man. I wish not to explain these instances on here, because many of them trace back to people close to me, both family and friends. Instead, I hope that there can be a level of trust here, and that this passing on rationale would not cause this statement to be thrown out for lack of explicit evidence - I merely seek to preserve the relationships which I have managed to put back together, or hope to put back together.

Anyway: I don't understand why there is such hatred towards me. I try to be a sensitive guy, actively seek to be a good person, and aspire to be the most wonderful husband a woman could ever have one day. Not for my sake or out of selfishness, but for hers, out of love and compassion. I have been made, on several occasions, to feel that this aspiration is wrong, through the disdain which has been expressed towards me. And I just *know* that deep down, this isn't right, to be hated for pursuing what seems good, to have a good heart....

From this whole endeavor, here's what I do understand: there are many women out there who are mistreated by men. Note that this is something that makes me want to emasculate those men. It's just messed up. And unfortunately it doesn't stop there either - they screw it up for everyone. Not only are they mistreating women, which is completely wrong, but then those women get a completely skewed view of men in general. And then, that affects me personally, as that skewed and hateful view caused by that abuse is reflected onto me, someone who tries to have a good heart.

I don't think it should be too hard for anyone to understand why women hate this guy and feel disdain for him. I mean, simply reading his pathetic, heartfelt, supplicating, self-pitying message makes me want to punch him in the face and I actually wish him well. He's not a bad-looking guy, he's in med school, he's clearly intelligent, he's sincere, he seeks genuine love and commitment, and yet the combination of that BETA smile and the pedestalization of women he betrays is enough to make any woman curl her lip in disgust.

I defy anyone who believes that Christians don't need Game to read this guy's post and still maintain that belief.

The short answer to his question is that his aspiration is wrong. Women disrespect and dislike him because he is wandering around acting like a retarded little boy who genuinely believes all women are sinless princesses riding unicorns. His perception of them as all sweetness, light, and purity is so far from what they know is their reality that he might as well have Down's Syndrome. They simply do not see him as a man, much less a man capable of giving them what they want. He wants to emasculate other men, little realizing this is because he has already emasculated himself!

Since this poor guy is a Christian, I would encourage him to read what the great men of the faith have written about women and female nature, then contemplate why, if women are collectively worthy of the pedestal upon which he wishes to place them, God places so many blatantly sexist restrictions upon the sex. The reality is that men are fallen, women are fallen, and our fallen natures are not identical but tend to manifest in different ways. The fact that a woman's fallen nature does not usually manifest in the same way as a man's does not mean that she is not fallen. This is a very common mistake made by Christian men: if she is not subject to the temptations I am, she must be better and holier than I am.

But it is not true. She is simply subject to different temptations and prone to committing different sins. The male tendency is to sin out of appetite, the female tendency is to sin out of malice.

It is particularly contemptible that this low delta attempts to blame other men for the way that women are treating him. This is truly sexist on his part, because he removes all agency from women, absolves them of responsibility for their own actions, and renders them little more than reactive puppets whose behavior is dictated by the sexually desirable men who mistreated them. But he needs to stop and consider why were they attracted to those men in the first place... and if his theory is even theoretically possible in many cases. With regards to the latter, I recommend that he read Athol Kay's post on Alpha/Beta Everywhere.

[M]y teenage daughter had a slumber party recently, and my wife (who is unaware of Game concepts) overheard the girls talking about the boys in their school. What struck me about the conversation that she relayed to me was that the girls were categorizing the boys into two groups: “Hot & Mean” and “Not-hot & Nice.” There couldn’t be a better example of the Alpha/Beta theory, as interpreted by 13 year old girls.

So here is the question: what abusive man somehow managed to damage all the 13 year-old girls so that they all happen to prefer the Hot & Mean boys to the Nice ones?

170 comments:

Vox, from my own personal experience, the red pill is a very hard pill to swallow for many. I tried explaining Game to a friend of mine, with direct Torah sources (so he couldn't just write it off as evil secular knowledge or something like that) explaining just how women work. He seemed to understand, but he practically ran away in fear of it, telling me in nearly awe-struck tones that I was playing "powerful stuff" (yes, used that term), as if it was as dangerous as kyptonite to Superman. He really could use it himself, too.

It will be interesting to see what happens if people starting commenting on that post.

I feel for this guy. Five years ago that was me and reading that hits me in the gut cause I know where he is coming from. I worked so hard to be a "better" man and couldn't understand why women were so blase about me. They didnt dislike me but they didnt like me either.

Recovery for me was actually rather easy. I had been suppressing my masculinity because I thought that was what I needed to do to be a good Christian. When I finally figured out what biblical masculinity is I was able to shed that mask. Now I work against real sin in my life and not some legalistic crap developed by the feminized church. I no longer try to be the "better" man but just a man. The change is evident in how women treat me. Many that used to be blase about me now dislike me cause i dont conform to their skewed idea of what a biblical man is. But others also like me because they know I stand up for what I believe and won't put up with any crap.

The solution is to understand what being a real man is and living by it. Youll turn off many women but youll turn on many too. Better than being beige.

Game is just modelling natural fallen behavior. With the predictions it gives, you get control, rather like Ohm's law allows you to build circuits. Question: if the purpose of game is to predict in order to control, do we not go to a different model once we try to model ourselves on Christ? And when we do, the algorithm we go with on that model will seem idiotic to the fallen?

Question: if the purpose of game is to predict in order to control, do we not go to a different model once we try to model ourselves on Christ?

I don't see how. If you are going to take that modelling in the strict and literal sense you are using it here, Game is irrelevant as you will never date, marry, or have any sexual involvement with women at all.

As I have noted before, Game runs in fairly closely parallel with the Biblical concepts and dictates concerning intersexual relations.

"The boy himself is too simple and too complex for us to make any final comment about him or his story. Perhaps the safest thing we can say about Holden is that he was born in the world not just strongly attracted to beauty but, almost, hopelessly impaled on it."

1) Confusion - Gammas are certain of their misguided beliefs, because they've figured out how to make their segment of Game work for them. He hasn't. A high gamma orbits around girls out of his league and is not confused by them and is welcoming and flirtatious to low-hanging fruit (non-delta worthy women).

2) Attraction - Socially, this confused guy still draws women to him - both damaged ones but also ones who are normal women who don't perfectly click with him, because he's wishy-washy. Still, he's handsome, smiley and probably a guy that most people actually like to be around a lot of the time when he's not being a cloying kitten.

3) Willingness - The guy is asking questions: what is so wrong with women? A gamma doesn't do that. A gamma misses his dad, worships his mom and knows that ALL WOMEN ARE DEAR AND PERFECT when men don't ruin things. This guy isn't putting them on a perfect pedestal: he's playing in the middle of the highway, trying to come off as anti-sexist but also needing some answers, because what he's doing isn't satisfactory.

In short, gammas have settled for their worldview and approach of futility, imaginatively transforming it into a public show of honor. Deltas are confused about why the gamma approach they think are expected to employ is so freaking stupid, but don't really know where to go from there.

In a way, low Deltas are synthetic gammas whose heart and mind aren't into it. High Deltas are somewhat more happily confused ("Oh those crazy women - who can ever figure them out? Oh well!") and less likely to traipse through gammadom in search of answers.

I shouldn't say a Gamma isn't confused about women: I mean that the Gamma doesn't realize he's confused - he's certain (though wrong) that all women are worthy of the pedestal, esp. the hot ones. This guy does realize he's confused.

A little bit of background which inspired this post: I recently have come to terms with a girl that I basically considered my #1 for about seven years. I've found out she "imagines us just to be friends in the future", and that's just the way it is. And that's okay - I don't think I could be into her either if there were some things about her that didn't change anyway, like our differences in how we perceive alcohol and "going out" and what not. Yet for some reason, I had basically given her my heart and didn't much consider dating other girls.. at least as "potentials".

So, clarification on the delta/gamma thing: is it the bitterness that makes one a gamma? I thought the emotional tampon orbiter was classic gamma.

Bitterness is the primary identifier of a gamma, either oriented towards higher-ranking men or women, or sometimes both. An orbiter can be either a delta or a gamma, mostly depending upon the rank of the woman he is orbiting.

Gammas tend to be in more denial than deltas, hence their lesser capacity for change.

A lot of the game theory is just dressing up the simple admonition to act like a man. The problem with our screwed up society is these devious (and deviant and plain wrong) feminists and their male accomplices have developed a definition of manhood that is most effeminate. I'd kick a girl to the curb for mewling at me like this fellow - it's unattractive and needy in a woman, it is spectacularly unattractive in a man.

Bitterness (see Scalzi) and orbiting are both traits. Gammas have a lot of hilarious traits, but honest confusion and searching/questioning (or at least fluidity) are delta things that I've rarely seen in a gamma. The minute a gamma starts to doubt the dogma is his first step into the delta.

Also, smugness tends not to be a delta trait, but a gamma one. The gamma refuses to be wrong, esp. when he is. The delta wonders why reality is such a mismatch with the model.

A delta will pick up a variety of traits and try them out in an attempt to sort the hierarchy and advance, but in a sort of haphazard way. So, he'll spout gamma maxims while following an alpha while feeling like an omega while fantasizing sigma. In doing so, he'll mix those things around to try to get better results.

Some deltas do that forever and stay deltas. Others start to figure out what really works, and improve their rank. But the key trait of delta is that willingness to keep at it and try and get it right, even if he rides the gammawagon way too long with bad results in search of a relationship.

I think I'm glad the Internet didn't exist yet when I was at my most pedestalizing, so there's no written evidence like this (unless some of those girls saved the sappy letters I wrote).

There is a certain logic to his thinking, though. If you start from the assumption that women are sinless princesses who mean what they say, then they should want a man like him. Since they reject him in favor of the jerks, they must be ill or confused in some way. After all, that's a pretty good definition of mentally ill: someone who keeps doing something harmful to himself. So something must have twisted them somehow, and with all the focus on abuse these days, that seems like a good candidate: she *would* want a man like him if she hadn't been hurt by all those other guys.

Of course, he has to ignore the fact here that her pain hasn't caused her to reject all men; just the "nice guys." He can't really explain that, but he figures pain causes confusion, and sometimes people keep poking at a sore spot, so it must be something like that.

This combination rebuke/exhortation is good and necessary, but of limited usefulness in guiding an SMP loser out of delta territory. It was the approach my father (a sigma) took in teaching me manliness, and to his frustration, and mine, he did not succeed. It's comparable to telling an adult illiterate, "Pick up the f****ing book and read it."

Assuming this blogger can get over himself and stop whining, he needs patient teaching from game-aware men. Hopefully he'll receive a bit of this through comments on his blog.

Do you think those dictates would be in place if man had not fallen? Are they universal, or is God just taking into consideration our present condition, and they would be if different Adam and Eve had chosen differently?

"Of course, he has to ignore the fact here that her pain hasn't caused her to reject all men; just the "nice guys." He can't really explain that, but he figures pain causes confusion, and sometimes people keep poking at a sore spot, so it must be something like that."

It doesn't help that women will "explain" (rationalize) the observable female preference for brutes over gentlemen as a product of low self-esteem. My wife used to say this too, until she learned about hypergamy and the hamster. Another example of why men should never go to women for advice on how to understand women.

Christianity is full of blue pill men.My dad is a pastor and a beta. My mom emasculated the sh*t out of him. He allowed it because that's what he thought being a godly husband was. Even when I was a kid I knew the blue pill was a one way ticket to masturbating with your own teardrops. The way Christian relationship "experts" and leaders have sold Christians a pile of b.s. as good advice would make satan jealous.

There is a substantial difference in the peace that results from the order, security, covering, etc provided by an alpha male, or one practicing alpha traits, and the peace that results from a delta or gamma giving in constantly so that she's not upset or disappointed.

Whenever there's a book/weekend seminar/podcast/etc on "Christian Manhood," it seems like all the emphasis is on things like

- Leading by being a servant- Being extra gentle with women because they're the weaker vessel- Dealing with all of your sins and problems before ever mentioning hers (of course, we're sinful and finite so we can never fully deal with our own issues)

In the end, men are left more paranoid and second-guessing than they were beforehand. Of course, these ideas are Biblical truths and apply in certain contexts, but such selective theology undermines the whole "be a leader/real man" goals.

I don't see why not - Game was in place before sin entered the world, or else Satan would have been unable to tempt. The open door was an exploit of her hypergamy and first demonstration of the hamster wheel before she sinned.

The Devil used Game for diabolical purposes, but since sin had not entered, I think it is safe to assume that Game, as analytical tool, is natural, such as the laws of physics, to creation.

One company where I spent a couple weeks consulting put me in an office with an older Christian man. Baby boomer, into biking and buying handguns. He wore this shirt with the logo "Wild Men Ministries", and he mentioned it's a ministry for men to get together and "do man stuff!"

He then explained that now that he and his wife are separated he finally gets to do the stuff he wants to, like buying guns and riding a bike.

See? Christian men have absorbed the idea that women are in charge of marriage. The church plays along by constantly pedestalizing the wife and admonishing the man. How many times have you heard a pastor say "If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy" as part of a "stern wake-up call" to men? Just once I would love to hear a pastor say "If Momma ain't happy, she'd better get her head on straight."

I wrote that post. I hope you actually read the whole thing instead of that clip.

#1.) Thanks for the feedback. Any feedback is good feedback.

#2.) I wouldn't be so sure about the things you've written. I bet most of you all think I've never "bagged women" before like an alpha. It's easy - you go out for drinks, and it just happens. I've been with multiple in a week before. I have absolutely no problem "turning on my game" and making it work, but I choose not to pursue that lifestyle anymore - because the fact is, you stop giving a damn about what a real relationship actually means, and end up treating women like crap. Which leads to all the other things I've said. Oh, and then you go for girls who have no morals, or don't practice their faith. I actually have a few other decent girls who would jump into a relationship with me right now, but I choose not to simply because of this reason, that we don't share the same lifestyle.

#3.) Is this advice for becoming "in control"? If so, God is the ultimate controller, not us. It's just the fact of the matter. If we're trying to "play games" or "spit game", it's not good. Simple fact is - honesty wins out eventually. The girl I'm talking about isn't some "pedestal figure", but legitimately has issues of her own that she's dealing with. The girl was engaged and got burned for goodness sake. On top of that, med school just started and she is stressed as fuck. I don't have attraction to her anymore, simply because I just don't trust the girl and think she might have some things deep down she needs to overcome, or else she'll just get into a relationship with a guy that treats her like crap again. She was leaving me out to dry, and just I didn't get what was going on because she seemed like a decent person (most people that are actually passionate about their faith are). This isn't an issue about me thinking that "girls aren't bad" - it's more an issue of trust in other believers. And I choose to have that trust for good reason. Unfortunately, in this case - it wasn't me, it was just her.

#4.) The other girl (7 year girl) was a pedestal figure for a while, and for good reason. She's about to graduate med school as a doctor (ever tried to date a female doctor before? yeah, that's what I thought.) And because I was friends with her, I ended up going down the same route - which is a heck of a lot better than running around on tour as a musician with all the drugs and alcohol and partying going on. We're pretty decent friends, I don't give her the same leeway that I used to. When I get burned by a girl, it has a big effect on things.

#5.) The point is - I'm seeking out girls that don't have issues. Hell, I went out with a girl last weekend. It was great.

So next time you've got someone pinned down because he writes about things that are personal to his experience (and by the way, the other instance was my mother, who was mistreated by an alcohol-abusing stepfather for years), don't jump in and assume that you know what you're talking about. I might seem like a "delta" to you - but I damn well guarantee that any relationship I'm in and seek will probably last for a lot longer than any of yours. You know why?

It's because girls LOVE a godly man. I'm just looking for the right one.

All you good women out there, I hope to have your forgiveness if my words appear insensitive or without understanding, as my innermost intentions are actually to create and facilitate a place of peace on both sides.

I damn well guarantee that any relationship I'm in and seek will probably last for a lot longer than any of yours. You know why?

Dude, this isn't a pick-up artist site. There are people on here who have been married for 25 years already.

You asked a question. Now you're claiming you know the answer. I trust you see the dichotomy there. No one is saying you need to go out and chase skirts, but you do very much need to stop supplicating and pedestalizing. Godly women don't like that any more than unholy women, no matter how godly you are.

Your language in the post is not that of a leader, but a follower. And an abject follower at that.

The other girl (7 year girl) was a pedestal figure for a while, and for good reason. She's about to graduate med school as a doctor (ever tried to date a female doctor before? yeah, that's what I thought.)

You don't understand. Women don't belong on pedestals no matter what they do. And female doctors are far from the creme de la creme of the SMP. They're not exactly international models or heiresses. You're going to be a doctor yourself, right? So clearly, her intended profession had nothing to do with your desire to pedestalize her. If anything, you should be among the last men to be impressed by her degrees.

A woman has determined within the first 180 seconds of meeting you whether or not you are a mate potential. There are millions and millions of eligible girls availing themselves to you. Yet you got hung up for 7 years on idol who has you in the friend zone? Med school has made you bad at mathematics, I think.

You can't guarantee that you will be consistent through a series of paragraphs, much less that your date last Saturday is going to endure longer than the marriages of people you don't know.

Nothing wrong with being a delta - your entire post was a fairly obvious admission that you'd like to break out of that land of confusion and land on more solid ground.

There's no good reason, ever, for having a pedestal girl, unless your whole point is to make her disgusted with your position of powerlessness.

#3.) Is this advice for becoming "in control"? If so, God is the ultimate controller, not us. It's just the fact of the matter.

God gives us responsibilities. He doesn't make us dangling puppets. It's about time modern Christians actually *read* what the Bible says about marriage, rather than the emo-therapeutic pop psychology that you hear from "relationship seminars".

There is no balancing on a knife's edge. Someone always controls the relationship, According to the Bible, that person should be the man. I defy you to find any other interpretation of what we are taught, Old Testament and New. According to everything we know about human nature (including what the ungodly pick-up artists have figured out), this is just a truism of the innermost core of how men and women function. The more we abandon that, the unhappier we are, on both sides.

Why has the modern human race lost sight of this truism? Good question. Note that it accords completely with advanced secularism, humanism, and socialism in almost every case. Ironically, the leaders of the advanced secularist society often don't actually practice this (see: Bill Clinton), but they use it to their advantage in wielding power. Unhappy self-doubting people are much easier to control.

I'm guessing that Shaun's source of confusion is that by pedestalizing and contorting to the whims of certain women (many of them, by his own admission, damaged) he has figured out tricks of maintaining a LTR in a pseudobiblical model. 7 off-on-again years actually sounds about right level of success.

It burns a delta out to do it, but an earnest guy with good intentions is remarkably resilient, and can fool himself into believing that he's a successful "good guy" and if he just keeps employing those practices, and just finds the "right" girl (i.e. a "non-damaged" one), he'll unlock the magic power of Christian Marriage 2.0.

It's a rough delusion, so I cut him a lot of slack. But ultimately, if he's asking these questions, the honest answer is this:

Stop looking for the One. You already worship Him, and doing anything other is idolatry. Soulmate is an unscriptural concept through and through. Pedestaling makes you unattractive to her and throws you into a worship cycle that becomes addictive.

Instead, go into your life mission hardcore (short or long term, it doesn't matter, just go out and conquer something) and have a standing invitation to any girl interested in you to join your life if she's up for it. You'll have a line - a line - of potential lifemates who miraculously "undamage" themselves with the objective of being your "one."

Instead, go into your life mission hardcore (short or long term, it doesn't matter, just go out and conquer something) and have a standing invitation to any girl interested in you to join your life if she's up for it. You'll have a line - a line - of potential lifemates who miraculously "undamage" themselves with the objective of being your "one."

I expect Shaun will shortly devote an entire blog post to villifying game, to the extent that he (mis)understands it. He's soaked in gasoline, standing on top of a mountain of high explosives, and yet he keeps handing out boxes of matches.

^ for anyone reading, feel free to check that site out. This guy thinks I'm in need of alpha-male direction and chose to blow up my post all over the internet. he didn't clue in that I am talking about *real* abuse resulting from alcoholism and drugs and violence and divorce and mental disorders, he just thought I was being whiny. what a jackass

If I hadn't met her, my life would be kind of a wreck. I was gonna be a traveling musician for a long time until I realized that I wanted to go into medicine, and that was because I had met her and learned about the kind of people that do medicine (they are interested in people). She's not on a pedestal anymore (my life is pretty steady now, so we're in the same boat), but she was for a long time, simply because she was on track for a greater level of success in her life and had been a mentor of sorts.

I agree wholeheartedly. But this "alpha-male" thing is just ingenuine, and labeling people who've hit walls with girls they thought were on steady ground is even worse. Christian guidance from male leaders doesn't push for this at all.

Haha, and I wouldn't change it for a thing. When you pedestalize girls that are worth it, your life changes for the better. Because I met her, I chose to pursue a lifestyle that was even more worthwhile than what I could have just bumming around as a musician and smoking weed all the time. I am SO glad I met this girl.

Nothing personal, Shaun, but with that attitude you have toward women you're only going to pull condescending entitlement princesses who scorn you. I hope you like groveling, because that's what you're going to do. That's the secular version. Now, the Christian version:

As God tells us through St. Paul in Ephesians 5,

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

There's nothing in there about kissing your GF's or wife's butt. In fact, you are directed to wear the pants. The husband is the head - you can do things for her but you do not get to run things if you are in the supplicant position. She is directed to submit - that means to accede to your leadership. Maybe you can get a woman there by faith alone, but then perhaps it is partly your responsibility as a leader to get her to submit to your leadership. You are also directed to love her. You got that part down, sort of, but you don't seem to love women so much as your idealized version of women. To really love a woman, you have to first know what she is, then accept what she is. And, I have news for you, being a leader means sometimes giving her what she needs, not what she wants. So she's going to be un-haaaaapy with you at times. Tough. Jesus told uncomfortable truths too, and his followers were often unhaaapy with him. A leader's job is not to make the followers happy, it's to get the followers to do what they are supposed to do. And, if you're doing it right, you are doing it with as much kindness (charity) as possible, out of a spirit of love.

Again, good luck on making this happen while you're groveling on your knees to "all women" generally.

Loving her + leading her + helping her submit to you sure sounds like a lot of the game principles we discuss here. I do not see this as inconsistent with my faith or marriage vows unless I use my knowledge to function as a PUA.

Why would you repay her kindness with with something so distancing as pedestalization? Because you were a wreck.

This is not a good reason to justify pedestalization. I'm not saying that, in your crappy, mixed up state at the time that you necessarily had to know better, but the fact is that you are still saying there are good reasons to treat another human being like a pretty idol on a high shelf.

Those are terrible reasons. Do you honestly not see the sin in setting someone who witness Christ to you in a position of worship?

PS - Good for you for remaining engaged. Evidence in favor of delta vs. gamma. There's hope!

OMG. You used Emo game or rockstar game to land her. Then you got all domesticated, went straight, found Christ, got your act together, checked your personality at the church door, and suddenly you weren't the mildly bad-boy traveling musician she liked in the first place, so she put you in the friend zone. Now you're pissed, and suffering from one-itis and wondering why.

You don't see any of this, do you?

You're clearly still hooked on her and want her back. There's an easy play here consistent with game principles (and not inconsistent with your faith or life in general) that would either get her back, or eventually land you a really good girl other than her. See if you can figure it out.

Hold on though, he's also engaging people hear. You can't expect a guy to flip the switch in real-time without a lot of dissonance and scrambling. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, and the benefit of Vox's initial diagnosis.

I think what we have is a delta trying to don an ill-fitting gamma helmet who may just find his way into the happy ranks of beta or high delta.

It's like watching a duck hatch - not elegant, but definitely interesting. I hope it lives! The dude clearly isn't comfortable curling up in the gamma shell.

I agree. My emergence from gamma/low delta territory took years, and initially I was highly skeptical of game theory. But I couldn't deny the theory matched and explained the female behavior I'd been seeing all my life.

OMG. You used Emo game or rockstar game to land her. Then you got all domesticated, went straight, found Christ, got your act together, checked your personality at the church door, and suddenly you weren't the mildly bad-boy traveling musician she liked in the first place, so she put you in the friend zone.

1) Old (pushing the limits of healthy family building.)2) Unattractive (Aging 7s to 3s, typically)3) "Educated" (i.e. typically stat liberalized)4) Interested in a socialized economy career (Capital-centered male docs are fleeing the field for greener pastures)

An attractive, younger female doctor who is relatively chaste and can submit to her husband will be a) rare and b) looking exclusively for an alpha, and getting one.

Your reply raises the obvious Game-related question. Was she interested in you at any time over the course of your acquaintance? She obviously invested an amount of time and effort into you, in helping you clean up your act.

People don't merely move up the socio-sexual hierarchy, they move down it as well. As Joe Blow has suspected, obviously.

Female docs are some of the easiest chicks out there. Single or married, doesn't matter.For all their education and credentials, they fall for guys that act like men with some swagger & moxie just as easily as any bar skank. My 15+ years in med. device sales and the things I've witnessed during that time would wake you up quick from your delusions. You can guarantee that any time these she-docs go to a training course or seminar, they are most likely getting nailed by some alpha sales rep or other alpha surgeon (that typically only applies to ortho docs).

No one said anything about changing anyone's character. Game is concerns changing your behavior and your attitudes. It's rather like med school. It gives you knowledge of the human body. But whether you use that knowledge to harm or to kill is completely up to you.

And Game is fully consistent with Christian principles. It's merely about modelling successful behavior, which one could quite reasonably apply to Christianity itself, considering how Christians are to model the behavior of the Alpha and the Omega.

I don't want to date someone that loves my rockstar personality. I want to date someone that loves me because I love Christ.

You'll find it everywhere in church. I'm telling you guys, you need to get out there. You'll find just as many people hurt because they are pouring into someone with their faith that isn't returning. That's the love of Christ.

It's a path we choose to take, that many people don't. But what do we have in return? The ability to love. The ability to see the good in women. I can't fall in love with what I don't see as good.

Instead, go into your life mission hardcore (short or long term, it doesn't matter, just go out and conquer something) and have a standing invitation to any girl interested in you to join your life if she's up for it. You'll have a line - a line - of potential lifemates who miraculously "undamage" themselves with the objective of being your "one."

I've done that (I'm a missionary), and though my choice of life mission limits the playing field quite a bit, you're absolutely right.

Sadly, although that 'line' of potential lifemates did manifest itself (a shorter line for a missionary, but it's there) I haven't yet found one who is actually qualified to do it. For me that's where the waiting on God part has come back into the picture.

If I seemed defensive at first, it was in reaction to being "pimped on the internet" by people that have more of a superficial view of my life than a realistic one.

Look, I gotta be honest - this philosophy is distinctly different from mine. My goals are not the same as yours. I am an empowerer, much like the writer of this blog. The fact of the matter is that the love of Christ is greater than anything we can ever experience, and within a loving church, you will find greater peace and comfort than you could ever imagine, you will find success, you will find the love of your life. It's because a loving, Bible-based church is a place where these things are fostered.

This, on the other hand, is strategy. This is tactics. This is technique for a game that I do not want to play - simply because I am not a manipulator, nor will I ever be. I cannot do it, it's just wrong. Will I lead? Sure. It's inherent within my personality. But I don't think this place is what I'm looking for.

However - what I am looking for is a Christian mentor, one that has Christ as his focus. I appreciate you guys picking me out of the blue, but this is just a lot. Ok?

It's true that the "Why" does not matter sometimes, and I'd agree with that. Some people just like to be happy. People don't like a complainer. In social life, you just gotta look past things to make friends.

But sometimes you gotta write about big issues, though. Sometimes people you care about fall into some shit, and you gotta figure out what that shit is. That's part of becoming a doctor, you know?

and within a loving church, you will find greater peace and comfort than you could ever imagine, you will find success, you will find the love of your life.......

Where in the Scriptures does it say anything about finding success and the love of your life in church? Those things are fluid and inconsequential to serving Christ. May the scales of Churchianity be removed from your eyes. Read the Bible and torch any churchy garbage from Rob Bell, Rick Warren, Blue Like Jazz, etc etc. The truth will in fact set you free.

When you say "this", are you sure you are talking about this blog in specific, and not just all Game sites in general?

As for manipulation, it is not necessary. The problem is really that you almost certainly have a wrong mental picture of what loving Christ and loving the woman looks like in practice, in a specific situation. It results in you thinking as cruelty what in your grandparents' time would have been (correctly) seen as taking a principled stand. And as being nice, what would have been seen as supplicating. It kills attraction in women. You don't need to start manipulating, you only need to stop self-sabotaging.

And then, that affects me personally, as that skewed and hateful view caused by that abuse is reflected onto me, someone who tries to have a good heart.

If this is the case, if it is just a reflection of other (alpha) men's bad behavior that you get, then shouldn't you expect that those type of men get even more hostile response from women? After all, they should remind women even more of these bad experiences with abusive guys than you. Make it a point to observe women's interaction with these type of men, compared to you.

And if the result is the exact opposite of what you might expect, then it can only be that your assumptions are wrong and you have to revise them.

@Shaun- When you pedestalize girls that are worth it, your life changes for the better. Because I met her, I chose to pursue a lifestyle that was even more worthwhile than what I could have just bumming around as a musician and smoking weed all the time. I am SO glad I met this girl.

There is nothing wrong with being glad that you met this girl. However, if you want a relationship with her, you must not pedestalize her. A woman cannot respect a man that holds her higher than he holds himself. And, without respect a woman cannot love you, at least not in the way you want her to. A woman wants to be with a man of strength and if she is placed higher than him, the implication is that she is stronger. There is nothing to be proud of in a man who is not stronger than the woman he loves. We need that. We need that strength and without it, without that to help hold us up, to hold up the relationship, it will be lost.

Shaun, you should realize the people here are real. Several of the people that comment here could be your parents. I have a 15 year old son who I force to read this column. My wife and I talk about some of the issues with our younger daughters as well. They will read it when they get older. It's possible you have been praying for a mentor to help with the problems in your life. Often, God gives you what you need but not what you want. You are here. Pray about it tonight.

I married a good Christian man. In fact, he's the best man I've ever known, and he's a major reason I came to accept Christ into my life. He sees good in me, but he does NOT pedestalize me. We women have a very strong need to look up to our husbands, to submit to them -- it's built into us biologically and spiritually -- but we cannot look up to our husbands from a pedestal. My husband has a very realistic view of me and my feminine limitations, and as a result I have grown considerably under his leadership. A woman cannot grow with a man who is not unquestionably the leader in the relationship. As others have pointed out, Game is merely a tool to establish and maintain that God-given role.

You aren't talking about the same thing. When you change your life for the better, because a girl is out of your reach otherwise, that is exactly what we talk about here. That is what Christian game is. Be the best man you can be. There is also much about understanding how women think. It is knowledge and application.

I'd drawing a blank on how to describe pedestallization. Best I can do: It is picking a woman way out of your league and trying to win her over by being nice. She knows she's out of your league. You are never more than plan D for her. She will keep you around in the friendzone to take advantage of and to cry about the jerks with. See emotional tampon. All of the friendly behavior and helpfullness on your part signals to her that she doesn't have to win your heart. She has it already. You are beneath her. She can look higher up the food chain and you'll always be there waiting. If you start to leave she'll give you just enough to renew your hope.

It's that you just incidentally happened to reveal an important piece of information: That women don't respond well to you. And it happens to be absolutely consistent with the impression we get from what you wrote. And, the important thing is that it can be fixed, although it will take a lot of work.

Take this: All you good women out there, I hope to have your forgiveness if my words appear insensitive or without understanding, as my innermost intentions are actually to create and facilitate a place of peace on both sides.

Now, why would you say that? Why would you hope to have their forgiveness, when there is absolutely nothing there that any reasonable person could take as a personal insult towards them? I know why: Because that's how "professional Christians" talk. My congregation calls it "Canaan language" (kaanaankieli in Finnish). It is dishonest, and it causes inflation to real apologies, when real apologies are necessary.

In general, kaanaankieli means any words or phraseology that anyone in the congregation will immediately understand (and the usage of which will establish your credentials as an experienced member), and that will merely cause a blank look on the face if you say it to an outsider or a new member. Sort of linguistic inbreeding.

Shaun,How's Game sin? Like all of God's creation, it can be misused, but that doesn't make it any more sinful than things like gravity or kinetic energy.

Go read Genesis, Adam was standing next to Eve when she ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. That sounds like a failure to lead on Adams part even before Eve fell. Now just imagine where we'd be if Adam took charge and told Eve what to do.

The more I read this thread, the more I wonder how likely it is a weed smoking musician went to medical school.

I've seen 40+ year old assembly technicians in engineering departments dissatisfied with their jobs study, take the boards and get into medical school, but he had a level of maturity and a logical approach I don't see here. So I know it's possible.

Steel sharpening steel here. I'm not sure how seriously to take him. Time will tell.

After reading his comments, I'm inclined to give Shaun the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's just very clueless, and I don't mean that insultingly. I once was too, and it's a lifelong learning process. After all, he talks about a woman deserving to be pedestalized, so he doesn't even understand the vocabulary yet. (Hint: pedestalizing another human being is a bad thing, always. It's not a question of whether she's wonderful. By definition, putting her on a pedestal is treating her as if she's unrealistically wonderful and better than you, generally in cartoonish ways. If you just mean "treating her well and enjoying time with her because she's a good person," that's not pedestalizing.)

Shaun, when this wonderful woman wears makeup and heels, do you look down on her for using "strategy and tactics"? If not, why shouldn't you use the male equivalent of female-attracting tactics?

Also, as a Christian, I'm going to assume you're not perfect. Therefore, there are things you should change about yourself. What's wrong with saying that one of those things might be the way you view and approach women? Why would it be acceptable to change other things about yourself to become a better man of God, but not that?

Bud, I got my life together after coming to Christ, transferred to Vanderbilt from UT, made a 28Q on my MCAT, and graduated with an interdisciplinary degree in Neurobiology and Music. I go to the LMU-Debusk College of Medicine now. I just took my first block test in Anatomy, Histology, and Molecular Fundamentals of Medicine.

Look. I just got done talking to friends and family about this issue. This thing has been troubling me all day. This post was geared NOT only towards the girl I was pursuing whose personality noticeably changed after I asked her out (and other people at our school have made comments on how she's become a really angry and untalkative person), but my father's wife, my grandmother, my own mother, and an uncle's wife - all who showed the same behavior, and all who have been in abusive relationships which stemmed from drugs and alcohol. You guys hit me at a low point, and that's not right.

Please don't write any more on my weblog, and just let me continue to seek Christ first and foremost. There's plenty of Christian women out there looking for a good man, and I've got more than enough friends and family to encourage me to continue along the path I'm currently on.

To put this correctly - our two contexts are different, and my post was twisted from the get-go. Try reading this post without all that other stuff in the back of your mind. Abuse is a serious issue - my mother just got divorced from her husband of 16 years because he was a narcissistic alcoholic.

If you guys don't understand this, I can't help you to understand the context within which I am speaking any further.

We use the term "pedestalization" a little loosely. Perhaps the correct term is "respected". It's just one of those things. I knew she wasn't perfect, that wasn't a problem. I was frustrated because at one point she was really solid, and she was doing REALLY well - and then she chose to go down a bad road again with the bar scene. That's the frustration of any Christian, someone whose life is brought into a landslide. And on top of that, it was the Christian that brought me to Christ to begin with, and that I'd had a VERY close and honest and building friendship with. You guys don't value friendship - they exist. Not every girl is meant to be bagged. The right one comes along eventually, and she's the one that'll have the self-confidence to pursue a nice guy, someone she deserves.

What it was is that I was feeding off that energy to make myself a better person. And I'm glad I did. Things just change when you get older - I'm not gonna need to deal with this stuff or with people bashing me because they think they know who I am, or what I'm even talking about because some guy takes my post wildly out of its intended context. While we are meant to be the leader, I was not of that type at the time. She brought me out of that. That's just kind of what happened.

And by the way - here is what my Christian friend (a girl, one who's got her head on straight) says about the whole "bad guy" attraction.

* i think that some girls are attracted to the "bad guy" stereotype b/c it makes them feel rebellious and they find that mysterious, adventurous side attractive.* however, i also think there are plenty of girls who go for "nice guys" like yourself. and the girls who seek the "bad boys" are the ones who sadly end up getting hurt, abused, etc. and stuck in a mess

The processes that make for erotic attraction are subconscious. Attraction is not a choice but a sensation in the presence of an appropriate stimuli.

She's not interested in you not because she is not nice. She is not interested in you because you are not turning her on.

Are too stupid to notice the pattern? God has laid it right out in front of you. All the women that you listed above were attracted to bad boys. The trick for the Christian is to posses both bad boy and good man qualities. It's the whole lion laying down with lamb thing.

Dude, the Eunuchs weren't allowed into the temple. God expects a man to have a pair.

I don't want to be dismissive of the difficulties you've faced from people's abuse and alcoholism. But that's really not relevant to what we're talking about here. If you insist on thinking that a woman would only reject a nice guy and go for bad boys because she's been damaged by abuse, then you have a rude awakening ahead of you, and that is the point we're trying to make.

Yes, there are some women who go for drastically abusive guys, and sometimes that is because of damage that was done to them in their youth. But those are the extreme cases. Any woman can give a nice guy the "You're a wonderful guy and some woman's sure to snap you up, but not me" speech. Or another personal favorite: "I'm just not ready to be in a relationship right now," and then the next day she rides off on the back of some guy's Harley.

The point is that, from everything you've described, she hasn't acted like an abuse victim; she's acted like a woman. If you don't understand that, you'll move on to pedestalizing the next woman and get the same response from her, and start wondering why all the women you want turn out to have been damaged in the same way. What if they aren't damaged, and you're just doing something that turns them off? Isn't that better, since it means there's something you can do about it?

No, it's not the truth. She's trying to explain it logically, but it's not logical, any more than a man's attraction to a woman's waist-to-hip ratio and hair sheen. It's a very bad idea to get advice about women from a woman. There are a couple of very sensible female commenters here, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.

Shaun, ask yourself: was King David an "alpha male"? Was the apostle Paul? Was Jesus? Yes to all of the above. It's not at all ingenuous. It is what all men should aspire to in one way or another. To lead, to reach one's fullest potential, to conquer obstacles. Alpha male is simply winning attitude, expecting to be followed because one has laid the groundwork and knows what one is about, and not letting oneself get sidetracked over a woman. If she's not willing to follow you...NEXT! And yes, it is what ALL women want, in one way or another.

Alpha male can be short-circuited if you are a clever sociopath, absolutely. "Virtuous" women fall for this type all the time: men who exhibit all the confidence and arrogance with none of the substance. This is the stacked deck the Christian man has to operate against. Deal with it. No, don't just deal with it. Blow it out of the water. That's the attitude young Christian men need these days. You should be the ones with more confidence and less neediness than the players.

That doesn't turn out bad at the end. There are a lot of old guys and women trying to help you here. They have met the Emperor and used to worship him. Open your mind and heart. You can continue to do what has led to you being single and confused or you can listen to men that will tell you the truth. I love my wife (of 17 years) so much that I tell her the truth. I was willing to have her divorce me in order to tell her the truth. I don't care about you nearly that much, but I tell you the truth lies with these people.

Just today, my wife converted a gay man out of his ignorance by telling him the truth. It took a few months. Grab on to the truth you are hearing here. Bad fruit doesn't fall from good trees. You, my friend, have no fruit. You are speaking to men with good fruit. Don't snowflake on us.

^ People like this is why I will not be coming here. I have one leader, one example, and that is Christ. All you folks seem to be tapering your actions around "what will attract a girl"... you know why I don't come here? Because no one ever talks about REAL biblical truth in this place. It's no wonder the guy that posted my post left off the last part of it - it's because it was THE BEST PART OF THE POST for goodness sake. The post about how "this is compatible with Christianity" is nothing but lukewarm nonsense, and it doesn't cite scripture a single time. Look - I taper my actions around my faith and joy. You guys are preying on some really bad stuff here, just a heads up. You can be as nice as you want, but your philosophies are severely skewed around the wrong intentions.

That's fine. Good luck with that approach. But if you find yourself still wondering why, despite your degree and your upscale job, you aren't finding any godly women attracted to you, I would encourage you to remember what you've been told and reconsider.

I think the main problem Christians have with Game is the name itself. Game is used by pickup artists to score and it immediately turns Christians off. The underlying psychological principles of Game are independent of how they are used and Game is an excellent resource to grasp hold of what those are.

I was like you once and through several hard years of introspection and study (before I ever heard of Game) I finally realized why my relationships weren't working. I discovered this site and realized there were other people out there who had figured it out too.

You say Game is about manipulation. Maybe but I can tell you that just about every "nice guy" Christian out there is a hard core manipulator. They are nice not because they want to be nice but because they are putting on the nice act to get what they want. They try to be servants not because they want to be servants but because they think being a servant will get them what they want. Underneath all of that niceness is really a person who isn't nice all but a manipulator at his core. And a lot of the nice things they these Christians do isn't actually required by the Bible. It is part of the manufactured church culture of how men are supposed to treat women. And they Christian guys play along with it because they have faith that it will work. It is a legalistic mindset that says "if I do X I will get Y" and it has no biblical support at all.

We have the Jesus-film impression of who Christ is. He walks around slowly with his hands outstretched waiting to bless us with nary a harsh word toward anyone and we try to emulate that in our relationships. But the real Jesus also whipped people with ropes, called people dogs, called one of his best disciples Satan. To quote CS Lewis "he isn't safe! But he's good." The Jesus many try to emulate doesn't exist and the guys who do it are plastic. Then guys get upset because women aren't attracted to their "Christ" like personas when their persona isn't actually Christ like at all.

Underneath these nice personas, just about every single one, (me included) was bitter and angry. What I did that was different than most was examine what a real Christ like man is and discovered that it wasn't this persona that I was putting on. I decided to model my life after the Christ of the bible not the Christ as taught the church leadership and enforced by church culture.

The results. My last three girlfriends from church were women who would never have dated me before, were well known nice girls from the church. And the guys like you (and formerly me) couldn't understand why these women would date me cause I was so obviously not nice and Christ-like like they were. In conversations with these women I discovered why they didn't like these nice men but liked me. It was everything I just talked about in the above paragraphs.

Yeah, pick up Game certainly isn't Christ-like but if you can use Game to understand relationships and it opens up your mind why relationships don't work and why they do you'll understand why real Christ like behavior attracts women and why the fake doesn't.

"I don't want to date someone that loves my rockstar personality. I want to date someone that loves me because I love Christ."

And there are how many other Christian males worldwide that she has to choose from.

Other than the commonality of the spiritual and of belief, there has to be something personality-wise that would make both you and her click. She's checking you just as much as you are checking her, to see if you meet her criteria sets.

So as she (if not totally degenerate) seeks other than her own physical design for a mate, so too she seeks someone other than her own emotional design - women have different criteria than men.

Consider though that whatever delta behavior that's been described here, it's to women as infidelity or feminism is to men: Off-putting and well-poisoners, because it disrupts the created order of (in this case, potential) husband/wife harmony.

Vox stresses that any simulation of behavior (Alpha or Game in this case) needs to be internalized and repeated in order for it to be habitual, the same as any sport or talent/ability. Having true religion - "visiting the fatherless and widowed in their affliction", charity, etc. - is something that we recognize as right, "yet what we would, we do not", because it's not natural. Along with the spiritual regeneration, there's the need to internalize and ultimately do, thus externalizing "that which we would". You run the race with perseverance by continually "training" or running; charity by wisely giving; discerning scripture by continually reading, etc. I don't think Jesus would reject the attitude of continuing in doing good deeds, studying to show one's self approved, and the like. Practice.

And not every woman out there is a fit with you. This is why simulated Alpha/male behavior, being cultivated until it is the default and thus relaxed setting, lends theoretically to a former gamma/delta/etc. being able to ultimately accept the reality that women aren't on pedestals, and that not all women are a match - and ultimately not being butt hurt by it in the process. She doesn't like where I go on Saturday nights? Oh well. Doesn't like my normal line of conversation? Too bad. Doesn't like what I do for fun? Woe unto me; the vapors...

Plenty of fish in sea, etc. Any potential catch needs to be able to jibe with your everyday routine.

And by "catch", I'm using the metric I'd assume most Christians including you would use - a wife, as opposed to a one night stand. Plenty of women for the latter that can be caught, who are poor choices for the former. Which is why the term "hooker" can unfortunately describe more than just prostitutes nowadays.

Shaun is you carry on down this path you will end up marrying a woman who you think is pure but in reality has taken it in every hole from every jock between here and Arkansas. Women lie, they lie to you and to themselves and what Christ thinks is immaterial.You have been warned and have no one to blame but yourself.

"And on top of that, it was the Christian that brought me to Christ to begin with, and that I'd had a VERY close and honest and building friendship with."

This plus the preceding, you're describing my relationship with then-gf during college years. Same thing, same outcome. And ultimately, it was a bargain for me: Why would you want to marry someone who a). willfully does things that are hypergamous and poison to a potential marriage, and b). can either go back on spiritual principles that easily or can play act that well with Christianity?

"You guys don't value friendship - they exist. Not every girl is meant to be bagged."

Refer to comment above about women having different criteria sets than men when checking them out. Friendship is a part of relationships and marriage, but there's a created order between husband/wife that also has to be met. The latter ought not be sacrificed for the sake of pedestalizing her. She'll reject it on some level in any case; hence the downgrading to becoming an orbiting "friend" rather than a husband that she centers her life around and a wife that you provide for.

It's notable that Shaun didn't directly debate any of the game-aware women here, who tried earnestly to set him straight about female nature, despite his professed desire to understand women better. As on his own blog, he employed the self-defeating strategy of condemning strong men as dastardly, manipulative cads in hopes that the women would see him as the sensitive hero.

No, that isn't sad, if fully true. The fact is, the deeper the mission goes, the less interested you become in making sure you find "one" who will go there with you.

I suspect very much that either a) your heart is in the missionary work or you are burned out b) you haven't gone as far as your gut is telling you to go with the mission or c) you've gone about your mission with the secret ambition that it'll bring the "right" girl to your doorstep.

Your mission doesn't sound like that much of a passion, frankly.

Because the fact is, you could "limit the playing field" a thousand-fold, and you'd still have your pick of hot, loyal Christian women wanting to marry you. There is always another girl available, and they are only getting younger from your perspective!

But your mission must be deep and satisfying to you, and ongoing. If you aren't doing something to advance your mission today or, at the very list aren't pissed beyond belief that you weren't able to advance it a little today, then it isn't a mission that qualifies.

If the only line you are getting is a bunch of women "beneath you" who have been given a reason to think they are worthy of you, it's because you've been bowing and crawling for too long. Start acting your quality, and quality will find you.

Wrong Shaun. There are a million male followers of Christ that any woman can pick from. Are you suggesting your love for Him is so special, deep and unique that that alone puts you ahead of the competition?

If given a choice between two good Christians, the wise woman of Proverbs will always and rightfully so choose the more alpha of the two.

In other words, your faith is a floor, not a ceiling. You are lying on the floor and thinking it is good enough for a good woman to commit her life to. Stop using Jesus as your dating service.

Concur 100%. It's been interesting to follow the Manosphere the last year, as we're seeing a distinct division between PUA Game and Courtship/Marriage Game. The former is disturbing to men of traditional morals. The latter? Right down the straight and narrow ethical path.

And yes, Christ and his disciples were strong, gutsy men. ANY man of strong character will not be a Nice, Tame Guy eager to please. They may be polite, but there's a line beyond which they dig in and fight to the death.

I had onetis in an LTR with a wealthy 9.5 for six years (a few years ago) and she had oneitis for me too. Best 5 years of my life. The sixth year, I felt that I didn't need game anymore and could become "sensitive" and all that stuff. Wrong move. Everything turned to shit.

Ok. I give in. Teach me. I just watched a delta preach and there was something missing - the ability to lead a group. I think I am starting to get it. So teach me. It takes time, esp when you get a sudden influx, to sort thru. But I saw thibgs from a perspective today that I hadn't had.

Well Done, Shaun. You just made one of the most difficult steps there is to make. There will be more, but seeing the disconnect and realizing something is not right is so very difficult. I'm going to pounce on you with another very hard thing to grasp while your mind is open. Women are just as fallen as men. In this time we are in, with feminism running rampant, it can easily be argued that we are more fallen as there are precious few places for us to go to learn the truth of our nature's . You are going to read some things about women that will likely make you reel. Don't let that stop you from seeing the truth. If you want to get married, understanding our nature will help you to have a wonderful one. She will lean on you and you will need to know how to stand strong for her, for you and for your marriage. Don't let the fact that you don't like what you are learning stop you from internalizing it. It will make all the difference in your life if you let it.

It is secular but has as good an explanation I've seen about the dynamic between men and women, why so many guys nowadays are in the position you are, and how to fix it. But it doesn't delve into PUA territory that is often so objectionable.

I was seeing some recent events one way, and now I think I have a more realistic handle on how to think of it all.

In a way, something that went bad actually gives me hope now. Because while the end results weren't what I'd hoped for, the fact that the process went as it did shows I can make Game work in a powerful way. And if I actually apply it in a less-timid manner...

My big problem is that it's hard to see how you can have attractive women attracted to you without giving into sin.

You are always exposed to temptation with every worldly success, be it with money, athletics, social status, or women. A suggestion: give a brief thanks to God for every success in a good endeavor, especially with women. "He inhabits the praises of His people."

It ain't any easier when you stop drinking, start getting into shape and find yourself hornier than you've ever been in your life. Add in recent wardrobe upgrades and I'm getting attention without much effort, which is nice but worrisome.

Maybe I'm putting the cart before the horse, but I don't see myself resisting temptation long enough to even give lip service to not sinning. And that bothers me more than a little.

It's happening. 7 year girl called me up today about a new guy and I hung up on her. She called back 4 times and texted asking if i was having phone difficulties. It's time I started getting what I want out of life.

Watch out for overcorrection, which is typical at this point. The mind tends to prefer simplistic answers. When it is forced to reject the view that society has been selling you about women all your life, it is very easy to conclude that ok, then there is actually no good in women whatsoever, they are just little Satan-spawn.

That's not going to be the truth either. But anyway, things are clearly going better now than they were just a couple of days ago.

Pulling your attention back will get drama-filled results, almost for sure. But watch out, this will happen whether or not she wants to be with you romantically, just because she thinks she cares so much about your "friendship".

It's hard to see how some women are and still care for them as friends if there's no apparent attraction there. It's also hard to know if she's self-aware enough to know whether or not she's really attracted.

Just play it by ear and give her less of your attention. Be honestly busy with your life and if she wants to be a part of it, she'll make an effort.

Ok, I am at a *real* computer now and have time to put together a decent post (instead of driving).

It took a long time to realize that what you all were saying it's true. One person had it right up there - this is a lot of stuff to sort through, and it wasn't going to be an overnight change considering the angle from which it came. After giving it lots of thought and consideration, this angle appears to be the correct angle and one which fits the bill having sorted the good (which is the majority) from the bad (which is the minority).

I went back through all of the above posts and noticed that yes - there is a distinct difference between PUA game and Christian "game". This was my initial problem. Christian "game" is a different game - it's just taking the Bible seriously. But in a sense, it functions as "game". There were a lot of people on here that had some really good things to say, but it took letting go of the PUA context that so many of these types of places revolve around and actually seeing that this is a matter of faith and of biblical wisdom, which can be generated a lot of times simply by seeing what happens around you.

So my question is this. I am the young gun here - perhaps a little fiery and defensive sometimes. But I want to learn. What are your recommendations for becoming a part of this community? How does one get involved to learn more? It is clear that I could benefit from learning from a steady community of stability-minded people.

Thank you all for your comments and input. You have broken my walls down. I am here to learn, as it appears the majority of the people who have commented are trustworthy and *do* have the long-term in mind.

Sadly, there aren't Christian Game books out there. Vox originally started this blog because he was planning to write the first one, but then other projects (writing and otherwise) went ahead of it. So, whatever you read, you'll end up rejecting something from it.

Basically you'll be doing what you intended to do from the beginning; Serving God and letting the women-thing sort itself out (except possibly getting in shape, if you aren't already).

Understanding what women are really like will almost automatically stop your self-sabotaging behavior, like those cringe-worthy apologies for absolutely nothing. And then the women-thing really will sort itself out.

As a young Christian, it's doubly hard, because you have to deal with a church that has really lost its way when it comes to marriage and relationships. There are a couple decent Christian blogs. Dalrock writs from a married Christian man's perspective, and Haley's Halo from a woman's perspective.

Also beware of women who want you to compromise in one way or another. While there are times that compromise is necessary (after marriage), I would say most of the time it is not, and if a woman approaches the relationship from the point of view that you have to give up something that is important to you in order to be with her, DON'T DO IT. First, it is a sign of weakness and she will start pouncing on other perceived weaknesses, and secondly, you will regret it and be bitter towards her. The attitude should be that this is your life and if she wishes to join it she may.

I'll say it again. Once a woman perceives some weakness, you can pay for it for years afterwards in a relationship, and the effort to repair that perception will be far harder than the initial effort in standing your ground would have been.

Firstly, don't pay too much attention to anons, sometimes they say something sensible, but generally if someone can't attach their name (or even a name) to something it's probably not worth reading.

Secondly, you've made the right choice. It's hard to accept that those cherished beliefs we were raised with weren't true. In a sense it's like being told your mother wasn't perfect (some may have an easier time accepting that than others) or that there is no Easter bunny.

For myself, learning about Game (not so much learning it, it seems designed for extroverts and I'm very much an introvert) didn't cause me to dislike women. If anything it aroused pity. I think there's a quote, "to understand all is to forgive all." Not true in all cases of course, but it seemed to work for this. Understanding women better (they were previously a mystery to me because their words never seemed to agree with their actions, Game note, "believe what women do, not what they say") has improved my relationship with my fiancée.

As everyone will tell you, Game is just an exercise in understanding female psychology. What you do with that knowledge is up to you. I'd recommend applying it in a Godly fashion.

It's a bitter, bitter pill you are going to have to swallow completely - that's true for just about any good medicine you might need to take during your lifetime.

If I had to recommend one site, I'd recommend this one: http://marriedmansexlife.com/. It contains advice on how to understand and maintain healthy relationships using "game" principles. Read back in the blog archives from 2010 onwards and you will read about the authors journey in discovering how to make relationships work. These principles *will* apply to your daily life and your the relationships you want. Nothing there written is incompatible with Christianity. It is "game" put to good use. Be warned though, the writing is blunt, and sometimes vulgar. Do *not* let that distract you from the message. It's pure relationship dynamite. Heck, even just taking a few things from there will make tremendous differences. Read the comments and discover just how many men and women have been "saved" by turning unhealthy relationships into happy ones.

There are others I'd recommend. The game/PUA sites are worth a read as long as you filter out the bitterness and callousness of some (much? all?) of their content. Many of these guys have been burned badly in the past from being "nice guys" and have swung completely in the opposite direction. That doesn't change the truthfulness of their fundamental observations.

I like Chateau Heartiste as his observations are almost always intelligent and spot on and contain less bitterness than most.

If you're willing to learn and read, you will see a change for the better. Just be on guard for becoming jaded and embittered when you understand more of the "truth"

Game-based pick up artistry works because it is Game-based, not vice versa. Same reason why radio broadcasts more effectively to a mass audience than tin cans and a string: the broadcaster could be sharing the Gospel or inciting a riot. The sin would not be in the tool. The concept of Game is just that: an accurate tool, based off our created nature, not our cultural one.

This is why Game functions in Japan identically to the U.S. or Antarctica: it is one of the few true laws of the social sciences.

I've dated a couple female doctors. I found that they responded most strongly than any other type of woman I dated to hard, almost dark game. (only the stripper I dated responded more wildly). That was pre-Christianity.

I am 100% certain you don't really understand game. And even less do you understand how Christian game works. I have been teaching my poor young pastor some of the core tenets of game. I can see the effects over time as he improves at managing the church board meetings, the women in our church, and his marriage.

I'm a family man as well, in a very conservative religion, and I use game at work, at home, and elsewhere to manage my relationships and myself. You seem to think game is about hitting on women and alpha dogging other men. It isn't.

Jesus had the tightest game of anyone in history. No one, ever, shook Him from His frame.

Oh, man. Never, ever, ask a woman for dating advice. How can they tell you the truth that they are unable to see for themselves?

It took me years to see that girls. just. aren't. attracted. to. nice. guys.

You may get by on your status (med student) and looks. But the higher market place women (talented and beautiful) won't be attracted to you as a potential mate unless they are settling after having a bunch of relationships with alphas. You'll be plan H, not plan A or B.

He'll find them. They'll be the ones who've had a rough time of it in life, because they rode around on the alpha carousel for awhile, tasting the bad boy fruit. Who start to realize their market value is dropping, and they better find themselves a mate who will forgive their past and will love them for who they are!

You misunderstand, more or less entirely. The topic was finding women to join your life as you pursue your life goal, not missions. Therefore I was speaking of how pursuing that particular life goal affects finding women.

Perhaps the abundance of self-confident language on this blog has confused you, but when I say no one is qualified, I by no means am saying that they are "beneath me," that would be idiotic, and insulting to the women to whom I am referring.

When I say that they are not qualified to "do it" I mean just that, not qualified to spend a lifetime in overseas missions, which is my particular life goal.

It's just reality; not too many American girls can move overseas (especially certain parts of the world) and thrive on very little money and a culture and language unfamiliar to them, and far too many missionaries get dragged back off the field by wives who decide they can't handle it anymore. It's not a question of value but of calling and preparation, and a similar passion on their part.

And by waiting on God I mean going full-steam ahead on the goal part (heading overseas in a few months, Lord willing) while waiting to see if along the way I meet anyone heading in the same direction. Don't assume.