Very much related to the SUV Tax Break thread, but I didn't want to slap a picture file right in the middle of the discussion. (Scarily related - maybe that GOP Talking Points Memo isn't a myth - I've heard most of these exact phrases on the board this week.)

EDIT: Took out a lot of hot air, and my .sig file, since we don't need *two* big 'ol cartoons in this post.

I'd love to see a link to any one of those "exact phrases" you have read here-Sorry Fuz- cartoons like that are not even remotely funny. It is one thing to make fun of Republicans for things they actually say, but flat out making up lies about Republicans, and then mocking them (poorly) based on those lies is just too much of a stretch for me...

Originally posted by MoeGatesSee, this is what I hate about Americans nowdays. 50 years ago, your average Joe was ready to fight and die for this country. Now you can't even get your average Joe to consider switching cars, or really sacrifice more than going out, buying a $2.95 flag, and flying it. Wow. I'm sure the folks who stormed Omaha Beach would be real impressed with that.(edited by MoeGates on 22.1.03 1737)

Does anyone think that the men who stormed the beaches at Normandy to PROTECT THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE would then sacrifice THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE just because some leftists say we are wrong to buy oil from the Arabs? To anyone not familiar with America, WE INVENTED the automobile! BIG and FAST cars are an American tradition!!! Why should ANY OF US give up our way of life? I've got a beat up Dodge Charger in my parents back yard just waiting for me to have enough money to restore it with a 426. You KNOW that's gonna guzzle the gas. And so what? Should I feel bad because I don't throw it out and buy some piece of shit mini car that gets a thousand miles to the gallon and has no Zero to Sixty rating because it can't even reach 60? Big fast and LOUD cars ARE America. It is part of who we are. Rather than piss all over 100 years of automotive tradition because of arab oil, we should get the oil we already have in Alaska.

"Present day writers, especially of the Socilaist school of thought- base their various theories upon one common hypothesis: They divide mankind into two parts. People in general- with the exception of the writer himself- from the first group. The writer, all alone, forms the second and most impportant group. Surely ths is the weirderst and most conceited notion that ever entered a human brain!"- Frederic Bastiat, The Law, 1850

God, I forgot about that post.OK, you got me, ONE GUY posted something that might fit in line with that cartoon. ONE GUY.And we all know that if one person on a certain side of an issue says something, then EVERYONE on that side agrees totally.I think it is safe to say that that particular post was highly extreme, and not the general conservative view. And being that the cartoon is saying that ALL Conservatives believe that there is no reason to be concerned at all with gas milage and that our soldiers DIED at Normandy for 7 MPG cars is quite simply bullshit. The vast majority do not believe that- and I think the posts in favor of alternative fuel vehicles (while still opposing an SUV tax) should clearly illustrate that.I think that one point Bizzle did make (in his oh-so poetic way) is that the anti-SUV environmentalist crowd does have an unreasonable expectation as to what Americans should do to solve this problem. The fact is that (as I said in the other thread) the majority of alternatives being offered by this crowd are simply unrealistic at this time. Granted, in a few years, the hybrid market will be much improved, which will mean it is an excellent time for people to consider making that kind of purchase. It just seems to me sometimes that the environmentalists will not be happy until each and every American, regardless of finantial situation, goes out in the next month and purchases a brand new, eco-friendly car. And NOW.

1) I hope you realize that just as not everybody on the conservative side of the discussion agrees with each other, the same goes for the liberals as well. Hell, very few liberals seem to be able to agree on anything right now, so to us, the conservatives seem like a completely unified front.

2) I'm sure this happens a lot here in the Politics forum, but Bizzle's statement basically colored the rest of the argument for me. When I went back to look for posts in the SUV Tax thread that sounded like the cartoon, I was surprised to find only Bizzle's that sounded like what I remembered the whole thread to sound like. Just an interesting thing, there.

"Does anyone think that the men who stormed the beaches at Normandy to PROTECT THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE would then sacrifice THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE just because some leftists say we are wrong to buy oil from the Arabs? To anyone not familiar with America, WE INVENTED the automobile! BIG and FAST cars are an American tradition!!! Why should ANY OF US give up our way of life? I've got a beat up Dodge Charger in my parents back yard just waiting for me to have enough money to restore it with a 426. You KNOW that's gonna guzzle the gas. And so what? Should I feel bad because I don't throw it out and buy some piece of shit mini car that gets a thousand miles to the gallon and has no Zero to Sixty rating because it can't even reach 60? Big fast and LOUD cars ARE America. It is part of who we are. Rather than piss all over 100 years of automotive tradition because of arab oil, we should get the oil we already have in Alaska."

This paragraph sums up everything I dislike about the "American Way Of Life" and the views held by some of you. Arrogance, total lack of humility, total disrespect to any country, any way of life outside of America...It's all there, folks. And you guys wonder why your country is becoming disliked in the Western world as well as the Middle East.

"Here's the thing: I don't give a tupenny f*ck about your moral conundrum, you meatheaded shit-sack. That's pretty much the thing." Daniel Day-Lewis as Bill "The Butcher" Cutting, Gangs Of New York. You'd be surprised at how many statements this can be used as a response to.

The self-righteousnes of you leftists will never cease to amaze me. I don't see how so many of you people can have the audacity to tell others how to live their lives. We get oil from lots of places, not just "terrorist" nations. And for some granola freak to tell me I have to drive some POS that's made out of plastic and balsa wood after I've grown up in a household that respected our automotive tradition just makes me sick. I'm confused when liberals say they 'love' America, when all they do is bash our traditions.

Which is better?A:

Or B:

The answer is obvious, but I have a feeling you leftists won't be happy until we are all forced out of our American vehicles and into some hippie mobile that gets 100 miles to a gallon of squeezed hemp juice

"My own personal feeling is that the Confederate flag no longer has a place flying any time, anywhere in our great nation." - Dick Gephardt, a man who apparently hates history AND the 1st Amendment

I don''t love America. I respect a lot of Americans, and I love aspects of it, but as a whole it's got some serious faults. As do many countries, you might say. The diffeence is, most countries at least accept that they've got faults, or show humility, or treat others as equals. America does not. The people at the head of your country roar and stamp and snarl in order to distract from the serious problems they've got at home. They love the throw their weight around, both domestically and on the world stage, and generally treat every other country in the world as insignificant. This is not an indictment of America as a people, it's not even an indictment of all Republicans. It's an indictment of those currently in power, and those who blindly support them.

"Here's the thing: I don't give a tupenny f*ck about your moral conundrum, you meatheaded shit-sack. That's pretty much the thing." Daniel Day-Lewis as Bill "The Butcher" Cutting, Gangs Of New York. You'd be surprised at how many statements this can be used as a response to.

Hey Bizzle- what if they made a car that looked like A, had the performance of A, but had the fuel efficiency and clean-fuel burning potential of B?I think that should be the eventual goal. But hell, they don't even make cars like the General Lee anymore no matter which way you look at it...And oldschool- I am not even sure where to start with your post. I think the simplest way to respond to that is"Damned if you do, Damned if you don't"If we were to step away from the world stage and withdrew completely within our borders, the world would be in some bad shape, and nations would be begging the US to do something. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, who stepped up to the plate to liberate them? When people were starving in Africa, who stepped up and delivered the food? Shit, the list of finantial contributions this country makes on a yearly basis to other nations is astoundingly large.Yes, that sort of thing comes hand in hand with situations like Iraq. And I personally find it understandable that some nations have some problems with the way that the US does things. But what I dislike is that the rest of the world has the SAME ego in behavior that the US has, but it is excused without question. Take a look at the actions of France and Germany of late, and compare their words with their history with providing Iraq with nuclear weapon components and enriched Uranium, and they seem even dirtier than we do.I think most Americans welcome open debate of their actions on the world stage. There is no denying that we simply CANNOT abandon the world. But what we balk at is the simple "opposition for the sake of opposing the Superpower" that is running rampant in the world today. I think both sides could do a lot in fixing this problem.

The self-righteousnes of you leftists will never cease to amaze me. I don't see how so many of you people can have the audacity to tell others how to live their lives.

Heh. This paragraph sums up 50% of the arguments about ANY issue on this board. Replace "leftists" with "conservatives," and you'll sum up the other 50%.

I'm confused when liberals say they 'love' America, when all they do is bash our traditions.

"Tradition," in this case, defined as "We did it this way N years ago, so that proves that it must've been right THEN, and therefore it's automatically just as right TODAY."

The answer is obvious, but I have a feeling you leftists won't be happy until we are all forced out of our American vehicles and into some hippie mobile that gets 100 miles to a gallon of squeezed hemp juice

As if those are the only two choices. Or am I an UN-AMERICAN COMMUNIST for suggesting that toning down the extreme vehicles doesn't transform the entire middle ground into Trabants?

Oldschool your point about America loving to throw their weight around got me thing how often DO we actual throw our weight around. You could say we did in Kosovo since it was not a UN action but I don't think you will find many people saying it was a bad thing to do. Hell when Bush back away from the Israel/Palestinian conflict he was criticizes for NOT doing enough. The world does expect the US to take a leading role in the North Keorea nuclear talks. As the only remaining Super Power it is expected that the United States to take a major role in all events. I would like to hear you explain these serious faults that Bush administration does not accept while other counties show humility on?

Hey Bizzle- what if they made a car that looked like A, had the performance of A, but had the fuel efficiency and clean-fuel burning potential of B?

Build me an engine like that and I'd most likely be down with it. I wouldn't put it in my old Charger, but if there was a big modern car that was powerful, loud, fast AND got good gas mileage I'd love it. I don't think anyone who loves classic cars enjoys the fact that they get shitty gas mileage. It's just that the good cars DO get poor mileage and we deal with it because we like GOOD cars. Before my timing belt blew, I was filling up my Charger 2 times a week, and I needed PREMIUM for that baby. That was kinda expensive for a recent college grad. But that car had character and it had balls and it was fun as hell to drive.

What kills me about the liberal tree huggers is that they rag on people who drive gas guzzling vehicles, but there are no alternative vehicles for those people to drive. America has loved few things like we have loved the Automobile. Baseball is there with it, but not much else. We like them fast, we like them powerful, and we like them loud. If a car met those criteria and it got 50 miles to the gallon, that would be gravy. But the cars the leftists say we should be driving are nothing more than pimped out golf carts. They're just so tiny! And slow. Years ago I was test driving a saturn after blowing up my charger and I floored it getting onto the highway. The engine squealed and I was slightly embarassed because the Saturn guy was sitting next to me and here I am driving his car like I'm Don Garlits. For a second I thought the car was cool until I noticed the speedometer was crawling. Cars are suppopsed to MOVE when you floor them.

So, build a kickass engine that gets good mileage and people will buy it. If you don't have that engine, then leave us the hell alone.

"My own personal feeling is that the Confederate flag no longer has a place flying any time, anywhere in our great nation." - Dick Gephardt, a man who apparently hates history AND the 1st Amendment

Originally posted by Bizzle IzzleAmerica has loved few things like we have loved the Automobile. Baseball is there with it, but not much else. We like them fast, we like them powerful, and we like them loud.

No, YOU like them fast, powerful and loud. You also like flying the confederate flag and bashing gays. And clinging to stereotypes, it would seem.

Originally posted by asteroidboyNo, YOU like them fast, powerful and loud.

No, I'm pretty sure if you ask most Americans they like them fast, powerful and loud. Please reference the popularity of NASCAR.

Originally posted by asteroidboyYou also like flying the confederate flag

What did that flag ever do to hurt you? It is no worse than the hammer and cicle the war protesters were flying last weekend.

Originally posted by asteroidboyand bashing gays.

Enheh....

Originally posted by asteroidboyAnd clinging to stereotypes, it would seem.

Pot, kettle, black

Originally posted by asteroidboyDon't fucking speak for all Americans.

See above

"Present day writers, especially of the Socilaist school of thought- base their various theories upon one common hypothesis: They divide mankind into two parts. People in general- with the exception of the writer himself- from the first group. The writer, all alone, forms the second and most impportant group. Surely ths is the weirderst and most conceited notion that ever entered a human brain!"- Frederic Bastiat, The Law, 1850

Originally posted by Bizzle IzzleAmerica has loved few things like we have loved the Automobile. Baseball is there with it, but not much else. We like them fast, we like them powerful, and we like them loud.

No, YOU like them fast, powerful and loud. You also like flying the confederate flag and bashing gays. And clinging to stereotypes, it would seem.

Don't fucking speak for all Americans.

If you want to drive a solar powered car be my guest. But don't accuse me of committing violent crimes. If you've been in America for more than a few days and you aren't aware of the passion America has had for cars for over 100 years, then something's wrong. And if using a picture of a confederate flag as an avatar means I "like flying" the confederate flag, then I guess by that wacky logic, based on previous pictures I've used, I also like shooting Chow Yun-Fat and Danny Lee in the head.

"My own personal feeling is that the Confederate flag no longer has a place flying any time, anywhere in our great nation." - Dick Gephardt, a man who apparently hates history AND the 1st Amendment

Well, you are from Jersey, so I'll give you some leeway on the whole "fast loud cars" thing. But just know it's like someone from Wyoming saying "Americans love their cars with heavy tire chains and when they're actually trucks," or someone from California saying "Americans love covertables that run on tofu" (although I thought "squeezed hemp juice" was classic) or someone from Manhattan saying "Americans hate cars and love the subway."

But really, when it comes down to it, are fast loud cars "American?" Sure they are. But in the grand scheme of "what American things are you willing to pay terrorists to keep?" I'd put "fast loud cars" somewhere below "Democracy" and "Freedom" and somewhere above "Cosby Show reruns," and "President George Bush Jr."

Really, nobody is going to outlaw S.U.V.'s Nobody is going to rename the "General Lee" the "General DeCaprio." The American way of fast cars, loose women, and cheap beer is safe for quite a while. What this has done, that is really important, is get a debate and conversation going, and made almost everyone agree that we rely too much on oil, and need to do something about it. Unfortunaltly the "almost" in the above sentence happens to be the guys the President blows every evening, so this might be tougher than it should be.

EDIT: Hey, what's a Jersey boy doing "flying" (I use that term loosely) the confederate flag? I'm sure you'd get your ass kicked if you tried that in a non-virtual way back home. Unless you recently moved from Alabama, I've got to believe it's just to get a rise out of us.

(edited by MoeGates on 28.1.03 1024)It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Aphrodite, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Spider-Man, and Boston.

Originally posted by Bizzle IzzleIf you want to drive a solar powered car be my guest. But don't accuse me of committing violent crimes. If you've been in America for more than a few days and you aren't aware of the passion America has had for cars for over 100 years, then something's wrong. And if using a picture of a confederate flag as an avatar means I "like flying" the confederate flag, then I guess by that wacky logic, based on previous pictures I've used, I also like shooting Chow Yun-Fat and Danny Lee in the head.

Dude, I live in Texas. I know what glasspack mufflers sound like. And I know that many people like them. What really gets me is the unwillingness to change. That pervasive mentality of "Why should I change? Who cares if my Dodge Dart gets two miles per gallon? I'm an American, durn it!"

We hog all the fucking resources in the world and then get stupid and brutish when we're asked to exercise some modicum of restraint.

And Bizzle, I wasn't accusing you of violent crimes. I was just referencing one of your old posts.

Originally posted by MoeGates Hey, what's a Jersey boy doing "flying" (I use that term loosely) the confederate flag? I'm sure you'd get your ass kicked if you tried that in a non-virtual way back home. Unless you recently moved from Alabama, I've got to believe it's just to get a rise out of us.

(edited by MoeGates on 28.1.03 1024)

Well I'm originally from an area of Jersey not tainted by you new yawkers and my choice of pictures has nothing to do with you leftwing weiners, and everything to do with Dick Gephardt. I don't know how many people acually fly the Confederate flag in flag form, but the representation of that flag is around a lot. Maybe not directly across the river from new york, but it's around. People wear it on shirts or jackets and display it on their cars and trucks, especially as the rear window of a pickup. I saw it a lot growing up in South Jersey (lots of Confederate items available at the Cowtown Rodeo/flea market). But you city slickers would most likely dismiss those people as 'red necks' or 'hicks' so I guess they don't matter. There's a guy who sells flags on the highway close to my parents house. He's got the confederate flag so if you want, I'll pick one up for you next time I'm down there.

"My own personal feeling is that the Confederate flag no longer has a place flying any time, anywhere in our great nation." - Dick Gephardt, a man who apparently hates history AND the 1st Amendment