Last week Star Trek co-writers Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman told us they (and Damon Lindelof) were just starting to break the story for the sequel due June 29th, 2012. At the same event, TrekMovie also spoke to producer Bryan Burk, one of the other members of Star Trek’s five-member "Supreme Court", who gave an update on the plans for the production, and also talked about how the team want the sequel to be even bigger than the first.

Bryan Burk Talks Star Trek Sequel

Bryan Burk is a long-time collaborator with JJ Abrams and his producing partner for pretty much everything going down at Abrams’ Bad Robot production company. Although we don’t often hear from him, Burk is the fifth member of Trek’s new Supreme Court along with JJ Abrams, Damon Lindelof, Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman. TrekMovie recently spoke with the producer about his plans and hopes for the Star Trek sequel.

TrekMovie: You have to deliver a movie to Paramount by June 2012, so when do you expect to start shooting?

Bryan Burk: We will be shooting this time next year. Starting early summer or late spring.

TrekMovie: So that puts pre-production starting around December this year or January 2011?

Bryan Burk: I would like to shoot for that, we will see.

Burk expects the crew to be shooting the Star Trek sequel by next summer

TrekMovie: When you look at this next movie in terms of scale and budget, like the recent Iron Man sequel where they gave them another $50 Million, are you thinking same scale or bigger?

Bryan Burk: Monetarily I can’t talk about anything because there is no script yet. I can tell you as we go into it, that our aspirations are for the movie to be even bigger and better than the first one. I don’t mean that just in scope, I mean content and characters and emotionally. We had a lot of conversations about Batman Begins and how that movie kind of re-invented that franchise, and we looked at what The Dark Knight did and how that really ramped it up and they went to a different place with that film, and how those two films keep re-inventing themselves and are not the same thing every time. So we have strong ideas of what we want to do and we are hoping that this one is an even bigger film than the last one.

TrekMovie: I know you guys originally hoped to bring the A unit to shoot in Iceland for the first one. Are you hoping for the sequel to take on challenges like foreign location shooting? Is that part of what you mean by making it bigger?

Bryan Burk: Obviously whenever you are doing one of these films you are hoping you will outdo the other one in terms of scope and making it bigger. I feel like, particular with the last film, we brought a lot of people into the Star Trek universe who either hadn’t been there before or hadn’t been there in a while, and now that you know who these characters are, we are hoping to take grander and bigger steps with the characters, emotionally. The stakes will be bigger and people will be more invested.

Burk says team looks to "The Dark Knight" as model for a sequel

TrekMovie: Speaking about the first movie. You guys got a lot of accolades from fans and critics, like the NBR Top 10. But in the end you guys did not get onto the list of 10 Best Film Oscar nominees, which did spark some ‘snub’ buzz in the media. Was that a surprise to you guys?

Bryan Burk: If we had been on the Oscar list, that would have been the surprise. The fact we are even having this conversation is flattering that anyone would think we would get a nomination for an Oscar for Best Picture. We were nominated in the special effects and sound categories, and I was particularly proud of the team we had working on it. And last year had incredible visual effects movies, and to say that Avatar changed everything is an understatement, let alone the sound design in that movie and Hurt Locker which was incredible work. We won actually for Makeup and I think Barney [Burman], Mindy [Hall], Joel [Harlow] and the whole team did an incredible job. So to say there was a snub — in a million years we wouldn’t think that.

TrekMovie: So you mentioned the team from the first film. Do you expect to get the whole band back together, like Ben Burtt, Roger Guyett, ILM, Scott Chambliss, everyone?

Bryan Burk: God yes! The plan is to reassemble them. Of course the problem is always everyone’s schedule. We would love nothing more than to work with all these people again. So hopefully everyone will be back.

TrekMovie: A nuts and bolts question. On the last film, you, Bob [Orci] and Alex [Kurtzman] were credited as executive producers while Damon [Lindelof] and JJ [Abrams] were credited as producers. For this one, are all five of you producers for this one?

Bryan Burk: Yes, all five of us.

TrekMovie: How does that all break out. For example, what is it that you do that JJ doesn’t do?

Bryan Burk: Sleep! [laughs] It actually depends on the project. We have a lot of things going on right now. Like on Star Trek my involvement was heavier on the beginning of the project and at the end of the production, and less so in the middle because we were doing the Fringe pilot at the time. So it is a lot of bouncing around, so where everyone needs help from wherever it might be, you just jump in. But for right now, the boys [Orci, Kurtzman, & Lindelof] are all off writing it.

I loved what these guys did with Star Trek. The movie was really amazing and some great writing.

One weak point that i think is worth raising. Kilk on Delta Vega being chased by a large monster. Just as that monster is about to pounce Kirk it is caught in the jaws of an even bigger monster who then tosses it to one side and also chases Kirk.

That scene has been done soooooo many times starting with Jurasic Park.

Please don’t just throw in scenes we have seen a billion times in other movies.

As soon as you see something like that it takes you out of the movie for a bit.

I’ve said before that whoever wrote that opening sequence deserves a medal. No popular fictional character has ever been given such a noble entrance into the universe as has James T Kirk thanks to you guys. The opening was cinematic gold.

“I’ve said before that whoever wrote the opening sequence deserves a medal. No popular fictional character has ever been given such a noble entrance into the universe as has James T Kirk thanks to you guys. The opening was cinematic gold.”

Perfectly said. This scene is the perfect example of how to reintroduce an iconic character. Should be required study at film school. :-)

Yeah, I hope they don’t get too deep with the sequel. Keep it fun guys, that’s the secret ingredient that had been missing in Trek for so very long that was always evident in the original series. You managed to find that missing ingredient and delivered one great movie. Please don’t go all philosophical and lose your new audience with 2 hours of deep soul searching “drama”.

The best Star Trek, whether it be episodes or movies, always weaved philosophy with entertainment and action. Let’s have faith in Bob and Alex. They gave us a great first movie. They are certainly aware of the desire for the sequel to be even greater.

Glad to be finally getting some idea about the new movie, even though there’s nothing solid yet. I think DK is the perfect sequel, though, Batman Begins got everything set up great, much as Star Trek did, and then the next movie needs to push it.

I hope going bigger in scale and scope means that when the Enterprise has her new engines installed, Engineering doesn’t look like a 20th century factory with a weird “Galaxy Quest” pointless destructo water blade thingy.

Burk knows what he’s doing. He’ll channel the big action/sci films of the late ’70s early 80’s while making sure the characters act like they should and have real choices to make. Who cares about the details of the engine room or monsters. I’m glad the latest movie went back to making Trek fun again instead concentrating on useless tech or self-important messages.

Ya know, I was watching TOS season 1 on blu-ray the other day, and it occured to me there was a perfect “Proper First Mission” for the enterprise crew… “Where no man has gone before”.

Remake that as a movie, the story was rock solid, granted the acting what a bit corny, but it was a perfect “The crew isn’t working as a proper unit yet, but watch how it unfolds” and had plenty of action. Just not much in the way of space battles, but they’re not hard to come up with for fitting into a movie.

I felt the story was light on true science fiction elements, in favor of special effects and bad jokes. When I hear bigger, I fear the story will suffer even more. Dark Knight was not a “bigger” movie than Batman Begins or any other Batman film. Revenge of the Fallen was a “bigger” movie than the first Transformers, and somehow it was even worse than the first hunk of junk.

I have no faith in Hollywood whatsoever not to take a figurative doo-doo on any script, even if its great. They’ve become addicted to CGI, and now 3D. They don’t care about stories, because the braindead minions will fork over $15 instead of doing something productive.

Sorry, but when did Star Trek become an Action genre? Somebody mentioned late 70’s and early 80’s sci-fi? Well, there were actually not a lot of action sequences in movies like Star Wars or Wrath of Khan or Superman. Those movies were driven by the stories and by the actors.

I hope I’m wrong, but when they start talking about movies becoming “bigger” I interpret that as bigger pieces of crap.

#30
I also hope they don’t shoot it in 3D.
I have nothing against a film that is designed in 3D (ala “Avatar”), but I really hate the ‘tacked-on, afterthought” kind they used to bad effect in “Clash of the Titans.” I saw the 2D version of that movie and it was a little more ‘natural’ (as natural as a CGI FX movie can be, anyway). 3D for Star Trek would seem a bit unnecessary IMO (as the best of Treks have always been character driven, not FX driven).

Something original (as original as it can be after 700+ hours of Trek) would be nice enough for me. As long as they don’t do a straight, scene-for-scene remake of any of those 700 hours, it should be OK. After all the Trek that has been made, I understand there WILL be similarities to older installments (unavoidable at this point), but if they can arrange things in a fresh new way with this great new cast, they may catch lightning in a bottle twice (as the 2009 movie did IMO).

The sequel needs a larger all-star cast with many recognisable actors making cameo appearances.

There need to be larger space battles with more starships.

I hope that James Kirk has several (human) love interests like James Bond and that they are played by Hollywood’s most beautiful young actresses.

Lady Gaga should have a cameo in Star Trek 12! Midway through Star Trek 12, I’d like to see Kirk, Spock and McCoy go undercover to a concert of hers on a distant planet like with Diva Plavalaguna in The Fifth Element (1997). Her character (the most famous and successful singer in the Alpha Quadrant) could have dark connections to the Orion Syndicate who should be the villains of the sequel as they are essentially the Mafia of the Star Trek universe, involved in piracy, smuggling, and extortion. An explosively intense, thunderous phaser fight could erupt interrupting the show when she sings Bad Romance, Paparazzi, Poker Face or Just Dance between Kirk, Spock and McCoy and some Orion Syndicate henchmen.

I just hope someone talks them down from this ridiculous “it’s gotta be bigger than the last one!” high. “Dark Knight” was not a bigger movie than “Batman Begins”, at least in concept, it was actually smaller since it was no longer an Origins story.

I’m smelling a “Batman Forever” or “Spider-Man III” in the offing. “This time, we’re gonna have Kang, Kodos, and Koloth all at the same time! It’s gonna be HUGE!” I sure hope I’m wrong, but we’re talking about the guys who blew up Vulcan and Romulus. Restraint is not what they’re known for.

I think Bob Orci once said that writting this one is a bit more underpressure than the first one. In the first you almost had your story pre-wrote in a way (the origins story) and how much reworking of that can you really do?
They of course added a lot of stuff to it and it came out great. But this one is kinda wide open, Its not a begining story for sure. So its a test to write what kind of adventure this young crew is going to have. If they want to try a Dark Knight template thats cool, but really Star Trek and Batman dont have a great deal in common as far as story goes IMO.
If they really want to be brave (crazy) do a early V’GER meeting. Guaranted to drive Trekkers nuts (and not in a good way)

I also hope they dont listen to the fans. If they had their way Star Trek 2 will have Klingons every other scene, cameos by Cap. Picard, Cap. Archer, Shatner, Sisko, Janeway, all at the same time, and all on the E bridge. Borg, and of course tribbles, who save the day. And maybe a guest appearance by The Incredible Hulk as well. :}

The nice thing about the brewery is, no continuity problem. However they design Engineering, we can assume all those exposed pipes were exposed only because the new ship’s interior wasn’t quite finished.

If you are looking at remaking an episode into a film, how about Norman Spinrad’s “The Doomsday Machine.” There could be side stories told to add depth but it had a great message. Plus, it was an exciting episode.

One thing that could be interesting in the new film is the weakened Federation. Vulcan is gone. And that leaves the Tellarites, you know the pig guys and the Andorians along with the humans left in the Federation. Oy vey. The pig guys against the Klingons doesn’t look good. I smell bacon.

Until the next movie comes out we need to something to tide us over. I guess that means watching “Enterprise” on the net. Its the series that “survives” the althernate timeline. If we could only get Ron Jones (TNG) to write a new theme song. :) I know some of you guys like the “Patch Adams” song but … “Patch Adams?” The more I watch of “Enterprise” the more I love it. It was a shame that in my town of Cincinnati, it was hard to get. We had Fox and WB affiliate stations, and the only one left was a low power station who had no clout with local cable.

One more thing, I just saw “Knight and Day.” In the movie, did Tom Cruise give Cameron Diaz a Vulcan neck pinch?

#42: ““Dark Knight” was not a bigger movie than “Batman Begins”, at least in concept, it was actually smaller since it was no longer an Origins story.”

Sharply observed, sir. Whenever folks talk about movies in terms of learning the lessons of _other_ movies, I always cringe and worry, because it’s so common for Hollywood to ignore the worthy lessons and pounce on the surface-level stuff :/

#44: “Borg, and of course tribbles, who save the day.”

Someday, we WILL see the Borg/Tribble alliance on the big screen, if we have to keep emailing the related naughty fanfic to the writers every six minutes for the next 20 years.

#47: “and the Andorians”

Plz no Andorians thx :( :( :( I luff them and wish to continue to luff them.

I don’t want to speak for 39, but I believe he was referring to the pace of the earlier films. Indeed Star Wars did have a lot of action, but it also had many scenes of reflection, simple dialogue scenes with characters sitting still and talking, and, most importantly, a well-measured pace that steadily progressed to that big, final, whiz-bang battle (even the trench run was structured like a proper game of skee ball–squadrons one at a time, wait your turn).

Unlike today, audiences in 1977 didn’t have to contend with a constant bombardment of shaky-cam explosions and frenetic exchanges of dialogue that only an eight-year-old on a sugar high could understand. The original Star Wars was a film, not a two-hour music video.

re the BATMAN BEGINS/DARK KNIGHT comparison – maybe they planning on having the most popular villain re-invented for the sequel done in a new and exciting way (e.g. joker = Khan…Harvey Dent = Klingons)..after all they did consider having a joker card style Botany Bay end coda

and for those who disagree that Khan is Treks most popular villain – Anthony maybe you could do a ‘most popular Trek villain’ poll (unlesstheres already been one)

A bigger enemy. Hum. What is about that: a little ship, followed by a biiiig ship. First you do not see the biiiig ship, only the little ship. And now – alas – a biiiig ship is crawling over the screen, it seems not to end…maybe endless. And so you could go to WC, buy some ice-cream, talk with you neighbour and so on. After a good hour you can see the end of the biiiiig ship.

great, isn´t it?

i am full of super ideas – think about a golden robot and a little robot, but i will not betray myself and talk more about it ;)

i only hope they will not again present some known enemys. the first joker – as a sample – was a jack nicholson – joker, so there was never a joker – joker before and mr. ledger did it great. but i do not want to see any khan again or any borg or any “we are good – the are evil” per se! star trek – the original series and the next generation serie lived through the charakters, conflicts and solutions for these conflicts. very rarely someone was just and only evil. roddenberry believed in the intelligence before the screen, i hope abrams an co. remember again what berman maybe forgot!?

I hope by the comparison to Dark Knight it means they will acknowledge what happened in the previous film: the destruction of Vulcan would be akin to the fall of Falcone and all these mob groups/alien races trying to get at control of the vaccum. Something which sets up the new antagonist of course, but overall making the rest of the film still feel stand alone.

Do you feel they will deliver a story that is unique to the ideals of Star Trek or do you feel that the mainstream appeal is leaning towards another villain seeking revenge or on a quest?

I hope only in quality of how it made both franchises popular. DS9 was not as dark as Dark Knight. Hat

55

It seems I am among the few who still prefers a lot of Trek under Berman’s watch, but Berman did try to kep Star Trek fresh, it was just under his watch there was perhaps an overflow of Trek. Now that there is a drought so naturally Abrams movie is looked upon as the best thing ever.

Midway through Star Trek 12, I’d like to see Kirk, Spock and McCoy go undercover to a concert of hers on a distant planet like with Diva Plavalaguna in The Fifth Element (1997). Her character (the most famous and successful singer in the Alpha Quadrant) could have dark connections to the Orion Syndicate who should be the villains of the sequel as they are essentially the Mafia of the Star Trek universe, involved in piracy, smuggling, and extortion. An explosively intense, thunderous phaser fight could erupt interrupting the show when she sings Bad Romance, Paparazzi, Poker Face or Just Dance between Kirk, Spock and McCoy and some Orion Syndicate henchmen.

I also hope that there will be no cut scenes this time. This was a mistake with the last film. J.J. Abrams made a bad call removing the Rura Penthe scenes. He said that the test audiences were confused by those scenes in particular. I am at a loss as to what was so confusing about the inclusion of the Klingons in the film. I am stunned that yet another recognisable actor (Victor Garber) was in the film (making it nearly 20) and not only was it not announced but cut out. It was absolutely shocking to leave such a huge plot hole regarding where the villains were for 25 years. It makes them look lazy and stupid on top of the fact that they were superficial. Nero and Ayel would have had more depth at least as well. The scenes with the Kirk family and Spock’s birth should have been included as well.

I hope that James Kirk is quicker and more brutally effective in the future sequels. He lost nearly every fightin Star Trek (2009). He should have been a hardcore badass like Christian Bale in Batman Begins and particularly in The Dark Knight, Daniel Craig in Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace, Matt Damon in the Bourne trilogy and Liam Neeson in Taken. He should have won the fights against the Starfleet officers, Spock and Nero. The fight between Kirk and Nero was pointless and anticlimactic. A wasted opportunity for an amazing and action-packed fight which would have made Kirk’s triumph at the end all the more emotional and uplifting. He didn’t seem to care about avenging his father. He should have gone after Nero after shooting Ayel. The fight between Jean–Luc Picard and Shinzon at the climax of Star Trek: Nemesis (2002) was more satisfying and even the William Riker and Reman Viceroy showdown.

Four stunningly beautiful and talented actresses were wasted in the last movie and should have had more screentime. Jennifer Morrison only appeared at the beginning and we don’t find out what happened to her, Rachel Nichols was only in it for three minutes and we don’t find out what happened to her, Winona Ryder was in it for nearly ten minutes and was needlessly killed off and Diora Baird was nowhere to be found (except in a brief cut scene).

The Jerry Goldsmith theme music from the Star Trek Insurrection end credits should have been used at the end. The Original Series theme music and new theme music in the movie was unnecessary. The soundtrack was disappointing overall. ‘Labour of Love’ was the best part of it.

59 every frickin sequel thread i see that Lady Gaga must be in Trek XII post!…if bob orci is reading this please pay no attention to that guy! hes obviously forgotten where he put his meds..

60 – re Kirk losing every fight – i think that was pretty interesting in a Kirk Begins type way – Kirk of ST09 isnt yet the Kirk we know of TOS so is obviously rough around the edges (like Bond in Casino Royale)…also the way the climax is set up in ST09 we think Kirk is gonna have a big fight with Nero like the ends Trek III or Empire Strikes Back (i thought Nero waiting for Kirk was reflected of Vader waiting for Luke), but it only last a couple of punches b4 Kirk is POWNED. this could be similar to the car ‘chase’ in Casino Royale where we think we’re in for a big lengthy traditional chase, but its over before it began…then we get the big chase at the start of the sequel…

so maybe in the sequel we’ll see a more triumphant Kirk with plenty of ripped shirted, drop kickin’, pant splitin Kirk-Fu

64. neill
Whether you can accept it or not, it is IMPERATIVE that a movie reach as wide an audience as possible. If you are making a $30,000 movie like “Blair Witch,” you may have enough “fans” to make a profit (and maybe even strike gold). “Star Trek” has a budget of $150,000,000 (?), so it’s a long haul to make a profit. You have to bring it to the so-called “mainstream,” and then you’ve got to give them something they will be able to relate to. You can’t make a big movie like “Star Trek” only for the fans — there aren’t enough fans to even recover that budget, let alone make a profit.
And before you were a Star Trek fan, what were you? A lot of the “mainstream” people who didn’t give a rat’s butt about Star Trek could very well be fans now, so don’t write them all off.
You are certainly not “wrong” for preferring a lot of the Berman stuff over the new movie, but that is just subjective. There was a lot to like in TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT. But those series are not like the new film. Each of those programs could have easily stood alone, outside the Trek universe, except that they were called Star Trek, and were influenced by TOS. In other words, DS9 wouldn’t have needed the Star Trek name on it, except that they had a “Federation,” and “phasers,” and “transporters,” and so forth. Those tidbits, alone, did not make that program Star Trek (and I’m a big fan of DS9). On the other hand, the new film has gone back to the root of Star Trek, (meaning TOS) and everything that made it Star Trek. The fact that the new film has unfolded in an altered universe does not change the fundamental elements that made up Star Trek.
You have certainly made it clear you have major issues with the new film, but you are overlooking the necessity of what this film (and the next two) need to accomplish if Star Trek is going to continue. IMO, the best thing to do is sit back and enjoy the ride. If you decide you don’t like it, then sit back and enjoy the Star Treks of the past. What are the alternatives, anyway? Maybe, one day, there will be a TNG reboot — but I’m afraid even that would have to appeal to the “mainstream,” in order to make $$$. Then what will you do?

I, for one, am not ga-ga over Lady Gaga. I’m sure people are joking about putting her in a Star Trek film… who could possibly consider that seriously? At least until she convinces me she’s a capable actress who deserves to be taken seriously… Otherwise, let’s have another “hippie” episode with the likes of Lady Gaga, and that Justin little-kid, and Miley Montana, and some rap dude, etc. and have them sing “Hey brother…” Then I’ll put a phaser to my head and pull the trigger as many times as possible…

I love the new film despite my problems with some of the changes. I knew that with the budget given that it had to make more money than the past movies, it’s a gamble that paid of. I am glad that the new movie has made Trek relevant again.

I love all five shows and all 11 movies.

I just wish it would have gotten more of the new audience into the Star Trek that we grew up loving and open their eyes to the adventures of the various crews we watched when growing up, which for me was the TNG crew, but I did watch reruns of TOS along with TNG as a kid.

I just hope Bob Orci sees tha rich potential for new stories in a new universe rather than just redoing what came before. To me redoing the past stuff misses the point of why they went to an alternate universe in the first place.

Off topic, do you think that if they did redo Khan they would have to retcon the years of the Eugenics Wars?

>Off topic, do you think that if they did redo Khan they would have to retcon >the years of the Eugenics Wars?

That wouldn´t be necessary, in the pocket books by Greg Cox, in which he tells the backstory of Khan, the Eugenics Wars did happened in the 1990´s, but happened behind the curtains, X-files style. It´s good reading.

I would say later seasons of Voyager, don’t forget Voyager started while DS9 was still young.

The man who made DS9 so great was Ira Behr, he did great stuff with that show.

As much as I loved Voyager I do find it is the show that is the most inconsistent with continuity. Voyager overdid the Borg. IU felt Voyager had some great arcs and some amazing episodes but the balance did get shifted.

Enterprise works for me. I think that despite a few mistakes it does fit in with canon. They even refer to Cochrane’s disappearance in one episode.

TNG is still one of my alltime fav shows and First Contact is one of the best movies.

captain_neill—-You’re going to meet Bruce Greenwood at the Las Vegas convention?? Lucky You!!!
I hope you’ll tell him that we DEFINITELY want to see him in the ST Sequel in a substantial role. I know I won’t rest till I know for sure that Pike will be there. Wish I could see him in person someday!!!!!
Of all the cast in the ST movie, Pike(BG) caught my eye and ended up my favourite!

Here’s the thing, with the original crew I am always going to prefer originals but because Jeffrey Hunter only played Pike in one episode I felt Bruce Greenwood had more room to develop the character of Pike that makes him stand out from Hunter, who did not have the eneergy that Shatner brought.

However with the main crew its the originals all the way as they were the characters for me. But that is because I grew up watching them on re runs.

I did like the new actors but I just feel Shatner will always be Kirk and De Kelly will always be the Real McCoy. LOL

I love how all the Trek alarmists are picking apart every individual word this guy says (like BIGGER) without actually digesting the context of the article and/or comprehending what he actually said.

He talked about the SCOPE of the film, the deeper investment of the characters, and the emotional involvement they intend those characters to have in the story. THAT’S Star Trek…but everyone needs something to gripe about so it becomes “WAHHH…don’t make it ‘BIGGER by adding more FX and action sequences!!!”

Do you guys READ anything?

I’ve posted this before but I’ll say it again…my wishes for the new movie:

1. Make it an “adventure” and a “mission”-based plot, not a “save the galaxy / Earth / whatever” plot.

2. Have the characters be the ones who are PROACTIVELY trying to accomplish something, and not the ones who are trying to stop someone else. Think “Indiana Jones” formula…except in space. A lot of the best Trek episodes were like this.

3. The villian should be trying to stop the crew for a change…or standing in their way on this “mission.”

4. NO FANWANK! No interstellar war, no galactic politics, no lame crossover of characters or cameos from Star Trek spin-offs. Nobody cares about what Neelix and Lt. Reed have been up to except you. The audience doesn’t care.

5. No Borg, no Khan, etc.

6. Make the story relevant and deep without being pretentious, preachy, and ham-handed. That was what TOS did so well and the other shows often failed at. The message needs to be subtle, not preached about for hours with a self-righteous british accent.

7. Keep having fun and keep challenging “the fans” with controvesial stuff! That’s what made the last film so good. Status quo is bad. The hardcore fans will cry about “Vulcan is gone” or “the alternate timeline sux!” or whatever…but keep that stuff up! That’s the good stuff.

“I also think it’s important to bear in mind the difference between the Star Trek film franchise continuing, the Star Trek franchise in general continuing, and Star Trek itself continuing.”

Absolutely good point. I think Star Trek in general will continue in some form, especially amongst the fans, much like in the 70’s prior to TMP. As far as films and tv, that is certainly another ball-game, since those products are gonna need more than just fans. Tv, in general, is a tough one, since sci-fi doesn’t do particularly well… although, I admit SyFy has had pretty good success with the BG and SG series. As for Star Trek merchandising, I think that’s another tough one. Apart from some pricey collector’s items, there hasn’t been much to cheer about… especially in terms of video games — which you would think would be an easy score for Trek. I don’t know much about the Online game, so I can’t comment on that one, other than I don’t play it.
Anyway, here’s to a long and prosperous future for our beloved Star Trek…

Neill, I won’t say you’re “wrong” for liking Berman Trek, because I guess in its own Trek way its like preferring Roger Moore as Bond rather than Sean Connery. It’s what you grew up with. I got into Bond with Moore, but I got into TOS Trek. TNG Trek was nice, but it was so heavily rehashed from the original, then seemed to follow a deliberate path to expose Trek’s weaknesses that it always seemed to pale in the shadow of TOS. TNG’s treknobabble became embarassing after a time; Kid Crusher saving the ship time after time became embarassing. That didn’t keep me from enjoying TNG (and, to be sure, TNG had some *great* moments), but it was always a pale shadow of its ancestor. To-may-to, to-mah-toh, as they say.

I think a bigger scope is merely an expansion of the idea that they have essentially a blank canvas from which to start, and who knows what will be painted on it. I do hope, however selfishly, that a better engine room is among the creations :-)

#89 how hard can it be to find a big empty room and put a future looking device slap bang in the middle that glows and sparkles a lot?
Just write all the running around bits on a planet this time. ;-))

And Harry, you flatter me again, sir! This is in danger of turning into a Pythonesque sketch!

Please no: ‘you’re the only ship in the quadrant’, ‘Enterprise is the only ship available’, ‘we’re an exploration ship not a military vessel’ crap, YADA YADA YADA!
97- I wasn’t that impressed with DK either; Heath Ledger sounded like Jack Nicholson to me – and I can’t stand Jack Nicholson!

I didn’t think Dark Knight lived up to the hype. I thought the movie owed more to a film like “Die Hard,” than anything Batman. I did feel that Heath Ledger did a fine job, playing the Joker as more insane (rather than comic-book). But the film was a bit like SpiderMan3 in the sense that it just had too much going on. One fundamental plot, one strong villain is enough for my attention-deficit brain. It was an okay movie, but not a spectacular masterpiece, IMO.
Now, I will go back to sweating in the 96 degree heat…

Being a fan of Chris Nolan, seeing his talent and the films he has created verses the personel at Bad Robot and their product, there is little chance these guys can do anything as creative and intelligent as the DARK KNIGHT. It maybe wise not to compare the new TREK to anything by Nolan.

108. Chris Nolan don´t deserve all the credit all by himself, as he drank heavily (and uncredited) from well stablished comic book material from writers Frank Miller (Year One) and Jeph Loeb (The Long Halloween).

No point doing a poll, we all know Khan is the most poplar villain, I love the character my self but there is a lot more to Star Trek than Khan. I feel there are other avenues we can go in other than redoing Khan.

One of the great villains in Star Trek along with Khan is Gul Dukat..

Well I do hope the next villain is a stronger one than Nero, he was pretty weak.

Im a star trek fan and always loved it even if i understand why people didnt, it was slow. The series were good but the movies??? I found them to be a two hour episode and if you werent a star trek fans you coulndt possibly connect with the characters. Star trek needed a new movie like the last one to make it relevent and competitive with the other movies out there like the dark night did!

That said, bigger isnt better, dark night did very well, but transformers… did not at ALL!!!!! Dark night had a good script and was character driven!

Star trek was ahead of its time in the 60’s , scrpit and production wise and after… everything catched up to it and star trek became ordinary. I would love to see mind blowing visuals, would like to discover strange new worlds and new life formes. Like the visuals of lord of the rings, harry potter, star wars and the best example …AVATAR! Avatar is eye candy , its magical and most important, OUT OF THIS WORLD! Thats what star trek is supposed to be , out of this world.

I would love to see an epic space battle, im tired of seeing the enterprise alone, The federation is such a cool factor and its never shown enough. And please no save the earth plot… not for the second one anyways. Seeing the enterprise needing help would be nice. The first one had a bigger ship, what about beeing out numbered by many little fast ships! The enterprise firing in many angles while the lil fighters manouver around! Being borded, seeing nice hand to hand combat for a change! And lets not forget to continue the friendship triangle between kirk, spock and bones, this is the most important thing of all!

51. Anthony Pascale said:
“For those who are just looking at the headline and the word ‘bigger’ and freaking out, i suggest you read the actual article and read what Burk said.

As for Dark Knight as a model. Just like with Batman Begins, they are clearly looking at those films as a model of quality, but that does not mean they are copying the themes or tone.”

Thank you, Anthony, for that little reminder. Everyone, as Bryan noted in his interview (above), “The Dark Knight” and “Avatar” have since raised the bar for film-making like nothing before (I hope everyone saw those two films!), and I applaud the entire J.J. Abrams “Star Trek” cast and crew for their efforts to make the next film better than any of us “on the outside” can anticipate. Now, can anyone IMAGINE how excited the cast and crew are right now — wondering how the second [new] story now being written will take the characters, the Starship Enterprise, and the entire Star Trek saga? What is “Star Trek” all about? Not just going into outer space, but as Q suggested to Picard in “All Good Things,” what’s in humanity discovering itself, that paradox of life — the journey is the best part, not the getting there, and that makes existence the most interesting: discovering ourselves, what we’re all about, is isn’t always found “out there,” although certainly it can be argued that going ‘out there’ can be a great table on which to set the feast! (I hope that literary allusion doesn’t escape those reading this thread.) The next film’s story, then, can ONLY be a good thing, a GREAT time spent at the theater, and I’m certain most (if not 99% of us) will have the faith to let Bob, Alex and Damon give us the greatest ‘Star Trek’ story imaginable in this parallel universe, and one that would make Gene Roddenberry proud! Finally, taking to the page inspired by Gene, I await with enthusiasm and optimistic hope and wonder, and will boldly go!

I think there needs to be a focus on Klingon. A storyline to expand what we know about them and their home world. I’d like to see their homeworld different..make it like a Class M Jupiter or Saturn with the moons as regional governments with different people.

When they start shooting, the men need to do some serious working out. Kirk looks so thin and sprawly, no wonder he got kicked around so much. He needs a trainer and a serious six pack and muscles. The same with Sulu. They need bulking up but not in the steroidal way.

I don’t think there’s great need to expand the cast. If you do, the main crew get short shrifted. We need to establish why this crew is the best in Starfleet.

Perhaps a scene with Scotty fixing a breaking dilithium chamber with simple old chewing gum to get the warp engines going…that kind of of-the-fly thinking.

Sulu could use more martial art scenes but make them have more style, perhaps a martial art we have not seen on screen? Also, we need to see why he’s the best helmsman. Perhaps dog fighting and some serious shuttlecraft maneuvering?

Spock going through Pon Farr. Maybe its too early with the second film. An updated ‘imagination’ of a Vulcan in heat. Perhaps Spock humping the conference table during a briefing because he can’t control the urge? :)

More Uhura. She’s gorgeous. Let her use that in a scene say to seduce a guard..show some leg, a few sultry lines and that look she has with those upswept eyebrows.

What to do with Chekov? He’s the whiz kid…so I guess, more save-the-day scenes?

I hope they do Khan as well. But make him like what we saw in “Space Seed”. A bad guy who isn’t evil. Just someone whose traits reflect his nature. Have the story about ‘nature versus nurture’ but without the revenge element. Add some Klingons and perhaps some ‘space pirates’.

Speaking of which, we never have seen ‘space pirates’ before in Trek. Not saying we need to go the route of “Pirates Of The Caribbean” in space, but it would show the dangers of space exploration in a unique way. Plus, the pirates would come from different worlds. You’d have Orions(a natural) Andorians, Gorn plus never before seen non-humanoid races. Plus an alien parrot who can speak Klingon! :-)

I think they should just continue with what was going on in the reboot movie with the majority of the fleet over in the other part of space…that could give us the major battle scene that we are craving for.

I still think the issue of Kirk’s standing in Starfleet needs to be addressed; we saw a touch of the resentment some of the veteran officers had for the original Kirk in “Court Martial” but this current situation – a 25-year-old kid fresh out of the Academy being handed the keys to the flagship of the Federation – can *not* sit well with the fleet veterans who’ve been paying their dues for 10, 20, even 30 years or longer waiting for their promotion to command.

Doesn’t need to be the main plot, but a subplot would certainly be in order.

“This is Captain Kirk, to any federation ship within range; we need help.”

“Sorry, Wonderboy, you’re on your own.”

It’s interesting, though – back in the 60’s, Kirk was established as the “youngest captain ever” at age 34. Nowadays, that’s too old – so they made him the “youngest captain ever” at age 25.

It’s interesting that they are looking at this sequel in relation to the Dark Knight. My general impression of that movie was that it was less about Batman directly than it was about everybody else in that movie. I thought Christian Bale’s role was significantly diminished, despite the fact the events of the story directly affected his character. Hopefully, there is not a literal adaptation of that film’s format to Star Trek. I already felt Spock took much more of the spotlight of the last film, so I would hate to see Kirk’s role diminished any more than that.

Given what happened to Khan in the 15 years between SPace Seed and Wrath of Khan on Ceti Alpha V it made sense that Khan went mad. He had lost his wife, the planet was made uninhabitable and Kirk did not check up on him. If I were in Khan’s shoes I’d be pissed.

If Ledger were alive today, he could play Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. Of course, Edith Keeler will be in it and Kirk will have to choose between saving her and saving Pike. She will be die a horrible death and Pike will be disfigured and blame Jim. Jim will become an outlaw…but not really. Oops! Spoiler alert!!

Maybe this will help
1. Star Trek 2009 and Star Trek 2012 are/will be made for BOTH fans and the mainstream
2. Myself and (according to polls) most fans and readers of this site are fans of BOTH the new movie and past Trek, including the Berman era

I think the world is not as black and white as you imagine, and so you are not alone, and therefore you do not need to make sure that you supply 20% of the posts in any given thread to make sure your point of view is seen.

#60 that would’ve been extremely cheesy if Kirk won every fight (though maybe he should’ve at least won ONE fight lol). Besides, he got his victory over Nero standing on the bridge of the Enterprise, giving the order to fire. That, followed by the exterior shot of the Enterprise looking like a fire-breathing dragon firing the barrage of phasers and photon torpedoes was pretty awesome.

And yeah, if you guys watched the last movie, you’d realize that they’re not going to turn Star Trek into a super dark, gritty sci-fi ala Battlestar (which was great in that series, but it’s not very Star Trek). They got the tone right in the first movie, and I have faith that they’ll nail it in the second one.

Its interesting to see how so many points of view their are about what something is, or could mean (and none are wrong really). When Brian and the rest of the SC talk about trying to emulate the Dark Knight, I think he means more “epic”, expanding on what they did in the first movie. I dont think he means Star Trek: The Halloween Years, although that might be cool actually :}

But really they are two different stories, with different “types” of hero’s.

I remember what a cool enemy the Borg was when they first appeared in Trek-dom. They seemed so invincible that it really pushed our heroes to the very edge. “Best of Both Worlds-pt 1″ was one of the finest hours in all of Star Trek. “Pt 1″ was not bad, but, IMO, did not sustain the intensity of “Pt. 1,” and the final solution was not so spectacular. Unfortunately, the Borg began to break apart with “Descent.” Again, “Pt. 1″ was quite interesting — the Borg’s “personality” had suddenly changed — and I was intrigued with how the story would play out. “Pt. 2,” however, was utterly disappointing, and I felt it left the Borg as little more than another version of Klingons… minus the heritage and culture.
I don’t have any sort of speculation regarding the “Star Trek” sequel, but I cannot help but feel a new “villain,” the likes of which we’ve never seen, would be another shot in the arm for Star Trek. An alternate universe presenting new dangers — kinda gets me right… here…..

#85: “I think Star Trek in general will continue in some form, especially amongst the fans, much like in the 70’s prior to TMP.”

Yeah, I feel the same way. While it’s exciting to follow the various Trek-related ventures, I take comfort in certainty that, even if they don’t do well, Trek as a whole continues independently of their efforts, and has already proven that it has the strength to do so (back in an age where there were even fewer cons, fewer fan organizations, etc).

#105: “What’s wrong with drama? The best TOS episode was “City on the Edge of Forever” and that was heavy drama.”

I don’t think this forum is ready for that much simple, concentrated truth. [dispatches the van]

#119: “I really hope they do go for Khan. I’m still disappointed in Nicholas Meyer’s handling of the character, turning a complex antagonist into a simple crazed lunatic.”

I agree very strongly with the _second_ sentence.

#139: “Its interesting to see how so many points of view their are about what something is, or could mean (and none are wrong really).”

I think it’s mainly because there isn’t much to chew over yet, so folks fill in the blanks … the Burk interview was a fun read and he seems a very pleasant fellow, but everything he said can be boiled down into “We have nothing yet to reveal; think happy good-good thoughts until we do!” There were no substantive points of revelation, so people are examining his cheery thumbs-up adspeak, dredging it for flecks of gold dust, and discussing any grain of sand that sparkles :)

@144: TOS had a lot of great ideas executed small. Gene Roddenberry knew this, which is why he raided the company store for TMP and pressed Nomad back into action as V’Ger. But TMP lost that excellent climax where our Great Captain unleashes the Vulcan within to trap Nomad in a self destructive loop of illogic.

Space Seed is another of those great ideas just done too damn small. I would love to see THAT Khan, the 3 dimensional Khan sans mullet, done right, on an epic scale, spanning worlds, starships, and yes — though in a different way — spanning centuries.

Khan is worth doing if he could be brought back to life equally as credible as he was, but on a grander scale and with more drama and emotion.

Which is why I mentioned Runaway Train. It had what I thought was a similarly complex “bad” guy, and it ended in a poetic way worthy of a situation Khan might have chosen.

Another interesting and excellent interview by the folks at TrekMovie. Some of the best moments of ST(09) was it’s character moments so I have high hopes in that regard for the next movie. As for the rest, I’ll wait and see.

About Kirk getting his butt kicked… I’m only rsponding because I’ve heard this before …from my girlfriend. In the bar Kirk took on four guys. And for a while he held his own. Not bad for a drunk. Let’s not forget he’s only 25 years old. Against a Romulan, well if they’re as strong as Vulcans… which they probably are… Kirk couldn’t whip Spock’s ass on a good day.

As far as a sequel goes, I’m hoping for some exploration and strange new worlds, hopefully something truly eerie and alien. I can remember watching TOS back in the early 70s and being truly creeped out on a regular basis. Nero’s ship lumbering through space gave me a bit of the old Trek heebie-jeebies, I’d love more of that. AND some Klingons who need a good whuppin’

“eerie and alien” I like it. Back then it was a different type of story-telling, a different style. Like to see that come back. So a new, never been done plotline …With the events from the last movie as a sub-plot, lending weight to both. More emotional investment of the characters, ie dramatic scenes like the opening scene, and please no remakes. Maybe a lesser character like Mudd or Cyrano Jones in a different light. …My wishlist.

160 – i hadnt seen the Mirror Darkly episodes since before ST09, watching them again recenetly i noticed the Archer briefing scene where they discuss the Defiant in part 1 reminded me somewhat of the ST09 Bridge scene when they talk about the future and alternate realities…..the way Archer describes how the rift occured from 100 years in the future all sounded somewhat similar to how the red matter did it in ST09.

also the scene of Archer and Sato looking at the Defiants computer got me thinking how the climax of ST09 couldve maybe done with something similar in relation to the future alternate reality. E.g. on the Narada searching for Pike after Spock leaves on the jellyfish NuKirk finds a hologram or computer screen of Kirk Prime (TWOK era Kirk) that Nero had been checking out – brushing up on starfleet history (maybe even picking up Spock Primes holoShat emitter that Nero could have stolen)…nothing long – just a fleeting glimpse of ShatKirk – like the fleeting glimpse of the DeathStar in SW Episode II…also some info on the alternate universe future, we the audience would know what it means but NuKirk wouldnt and cant take it in before being attacked by Ayel/Nero..(something along the same lines as the end of Raiders and Crystal Skull where Indy cant take it all in before the stuff hits the fan )

its a great 2 parter – when viewed together as a ‘movie’ its better than Insurrection and Nemesis put together. Enterprise was really good in season 4..it was like TNGs season 3 (which would make Mirror Darkly its ‘Yesterdays Enterprise’), if season 4 had come sooner maybe Enterprise would never have been cancelled…

In a recent interview, Alex Kurtzman said they “have a front runner” for who the villain is going to be. I take this to mean it’s going to be someone we’ve seen before. If not Khan, it could be Kor (seems most likely) or Garth, or heck, the Doomsday Machine itself.

As far as Tholian Web…always been my season 3 favorite. TOS at its best.

#174 … Personally, I wouldn’t mind seeing Khan and Kor. It’s almost a given that the Klingons are going to be in there somewhere, considering that everyone wants them and they almost made it into ST 09.

Personally, I don’t want to see Klingons OR Khan! Bob Orci, can’t you guys come up with something new? When I read these comparisons to The Dark Knight it really makes me think you are planning some kind of retread — few want that!

Folks, one other thing: if you don’t have the collectors edition of the score for JJ Trek — I HIGHLY recommend it!

Mine arrived yesterday and the packaging is excellent, the additional tracks are great and one disc looks like the Enterprise saucer; the other looks like the Kelvin saucer.

A nice set overall and very much worth getting if you are a fan of this score!

#177 … Klingons are too popular to remain off screen. Most fans enjoy them, the non-Trekkie general public knows what Klingons are, they have become a well known part of pop culture. And let’s face it, it’s the general public’s box office money that is being sought. JJ’s team is obviously fond of the Klingons, given the deleted scenes. They’ll be back alright. It doesn’t mean the plot has to revolve around them, simply that they’ll appear in the story. And I have no doubt that they’ll be made fresh and interesting again.

I don’t think there’s any real reason to jump the gun on what will or will not happen in the next film.
All Burk has said is, “our aspirations are for the movie to be even bigger and better than the first one. I don’t mean that just in scope, I mean content and characters and emotionally.”
I don’t think one can conclude anything from this statement relative to who the villain will be, what will happen to the characters, what the plot will be, or any other detail.
So far, we’ve been give one little piece to a rather large jig-saw puzzle and are trying to imagine what the whole thing looks like, hmm?

I would love to see each Star Trek movie open with a bang. Action, excitement, tragedy, weeping.

For a Khan movie it would be really cool to open on the earth Khan rules, the world in flames. His power over. His wife — or mistress — his LOVE for her the only thing he has left. Separated by fighting and warfare, he loses her. His ship is forced to leave without her, but she has the same technology that will enable her to sleep for hundreds of years, and Khan knows she will be there hidden away, perhaps deep in the Earth, in some secret place; and as she goes to sleep in exile from the dying world above, she also knows that he will come for her someday.

Its logical that the guys wont spill the beans this early in the process obviously, most big movie productions dont. I just hope they aren’t as tight liped about this all the way through like they were the first one. The tight security on the story/script was understandable first time until it opened, but the cats out of the bag now.

And as has been mentioned before, with 11 movies, 5 TV series and 700 zillion hours of TV stories in back of it, it will be difficult not to come up with something that in some ways looks or sounds a little familiar. But Im sure it will be entertaining either way.

@19 +1 on the kudos to the opening scene. Wonderful effects. Wonderful establishment of the Federation vessel look. The horror of space battles — that everyone on a ship is about 1 foot of steel away from vacuum. Foreshadowing the fact that the “captain” is not necessarily at the rank of captain. The misdirection of “you’re the captain now Mr. Kirk.” The father’s loyal and beautiful self-sacrifice, becoming a legend while remaining a man — his voice shaky but loving as he gauges up his last 20 seconds of life and uses it to banter with his wife! What a scene, maybe the best in the movie and one of the best in all of Trek.

@60 Disagree on Kirk getting beaten up constantly. In my mind that made the character’s obnoxiousness tolerable! It also makes him more heroic, in that he can take a punch (after punch after…) and still function, not just adequately but at an elite level, co-planning and executing the disarmament of an enemy of vastly superior strength.

@170 I would like to see more of Kirk’s strategic brilliance. He showed it in this movie (suckering the Narada to race into a spot where the jellyfish could execute it); I’d love to see him do that with a fleet engagement.

#194: True. But if they’re going to go that route, just go for the gusto and get Captain (er, Lord) Garth up there, I say, and abandon all pretense :) He wasn’t a villain either, but he _firmly believed he was,_ so that’s at least progress.

“there is a whole galaxy waiting out there. Why in the name of all that is fresh and original would we want to tread the old paths?”

Thing is, in the Trek universe we already know what’s ‘waiting out there’ in at least half of the galaxy:

Gamma Quadrant: The Dominion.
Delta Quadrant: The Borg.

Both of these are the two main superpowers in their respective parts of the galaxy, and that’s already supposed to have been the case for a very long time by the ST 09 era. Having said that, bringing forward the timeline for the Federation’s collision with them by a century would provide scope for new movie plots, although this would of course not be something which fans looking for ‘entirely new villains’ would approve of.

Also, at this time the Klingon Empire is very much the Federation’s main enemy (so they can’t be ignored either), although the writers could of course throw in another timeline-changing plot twist which would alter this. Especially because, thanks to TNG, DS9 etc, we already know that the Klingons do have the potential to become the Federation’s strongest allies along with the fact that they’re not actually the one-dimensional villainous barbarians which they may have superficially appeared to be in earlier portrayals.

“Bob did say a few weeks ago that he was reading “The Eugenics Wars”.”

If that’s referring to the two recent prequel novels focusing on Khan then, as someone who is of Indian ethnicity myself, I have to say that the author did a really good job of detailing Khan’s cultural and religious background. There had clearly been a lot of research undertaken about the Sikh religion and Sikh history, and the whole subject was very sensitively and respectfully handled.

Without wishing to give away any spoilers, I also thought the depiction of the event when Khan really does finally ‘go over to the dark side’ was brilliantly written; it was a split-second situation which could have gone either way, and given the portrayal of Khan’s capacity for great nobility despite his Alpha Male tendencies, the tragic way that he irrevocably takes ‘the wrong fork in the road’ was very moving, especially considering the alternative. Poignant stuff, and plenty of material for inspiration if Bob Orci really is reading those books and Khan ends up in the new movies.

By the way, I really like Dmduncan’s comments on this thread. This is the kind of sensitive and intelligent attitude to storytelling which is needed in the new Trek movies. There are certain reasons that “The Visitor” became one of DS9’s very best episodes, and it should be possible for Bob Orci and his fellow writers to incorporate the same level of mature, emotionally perceptive storytelling into the new movies, even if they’re also going to have plenty of action too. The fantastic opening section of ST 09 is a superb example – ideally, the entire film should be like that, in terms of sophisticated ‘emotional intelligence’ as well as being a gripping story.

I am hopeful they will go in a completely new direction with the next film but if it must be Khan then I hope it is done well.

Space Seed is a classic and Wrath of Khan is the top Trek movie still so understandable you want to do it, but be nice to move away from that type of villain in the next movie because Nero and Shinzon have filled that role.

maybe just mention it but not be time specific…i.e. it happened sometime in earths past and let the (non trekkie) audience assume its sometime in the 21st century (post 2012) but have nothing to suggest it wasnt the 1990s (so as not to upset us fans whod scream ‘CANON VIOLATION!’)

or as someone mentioned – as in the Cox books have Khan and TEW as having happened discreetly…(as we know the novels do sometimes influence on screen canon)

maybe have a flash back scene or even a prologue showing Khan created/Eugenics wars..

its all there – a rich deep storyline that could be done very differnetly to how it was in Space Seed/Wrath

#202 easy. Stick the big E. in reverse and go in another direction. Sorry, but i’m really not excited by Klingons and see no reason why they can’t be ignored. Or if they can’t be totally ignored then at least not central. Just have Kirk doing what he does best and send them on their way in an explosive first five minutes.
Then on to something new for the rest of the flick.
Just my hope.

60 Lance Costa – “I hope that James Kirk is quicker and more brutally effective in the future sequels. He lost nearly every fightin Star Trek (2009). He should have been a hardcore badass like Christian Bale in Batman Begins and particularly in The Dark Knight, Daniel Craig in Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace, Matt Damon in the Bourne trilogy and Liam Neeson in Taken. He should have won the fights against the Starfleet officers, Spock and Nero. He didn’t seem to care about avenging his father.”

you see I don’t agree. Kirk isn’t a superhero or James Bond, nor should he be. He finds a way to succeed without their “gifts” which makes him more …human. don’t really want to watch a more pumped up hero. There are plenty of those.
I do agree with you observation about him seeming not to hold Nero responsible for his father’s demise. Perhaps a missed opportunity for more drama.

188. Yammer -“I would like to see more of Kirk’s strategic brilliance. He showed it in this movie (suckering the Narada to race into a spot where the jellyfish could execute it); I’d love to see him do that with a fleet engagement.”

Now that’s what I’m talkin’ about. Let’s see him earn that reputation.

Ditto again. If you mean any of the big villain alien races, or Khan. those have been thoroughly explored.

I like the *idea* (not necessarily bringing back) of villains of a different sort than the cackling king-type.

Like T’pring, a baddie who uses logic and manipulation to put Spock in an untenable position – their conflict had zero geopolitical consequences but because we care for Kirk and Spock, her actions are astounding.

Like Merrikus, a dropout from Starfleet Academy who found gratification and power, but at the cost of having to become the monstrous puppet of a despot. Here we have a sympathetic villain, and an alterna-Rome planet setting that provided tons of action. (I also like the idea of going from spacewar to ground conflict… maybe a big Federation team-up like in TAS when the Enterprisers met up with Em Three Green to retrieve the soul of the Skaar… god, I am a nerd.)

Like Ron Tracey, whose actions make a certain kind of sense, and echo the actions of other leaders who have foolishly taken sides in wars that are not necessarily their business.

TMP delivered a plot that was a lot like an episode of TOS. TWOK was a sequel to Space Seed. TSFS featured the Klingons. TVH featured time travel to Earth’s past, which we saw in TOS twice. TFF featured a plot similar to an episode of TOS. TUC…more Klingons. I love all of the first six movies, but they weren’t exactly breaking new ground in terms of Star Trek storytelling.

I’m sure it would be easy to provide a great variety of story types if this new Trek were a tv series. But revisiting familiar plots/elements is not a bad thing, as long as the stories are told well. I’d stake money on the fact that we are going to see Khan again (if not in XII, then in XIII), and I also bet it’ll be freaking awesome! Most of the people who are complaning about rehashes will see it multiple times.

One particular villain that gives me the chills is Admiral Drake, from Shatner´s book “Ashes of Eden”, he´s the political guy who is always charming and smiling and convincing, just like any political, while backstabbing everyone in evil ways.

He was jealous of Kirk over an incident in the early years in the academy, and took this grudge for decades just to humiliate him.

And he sponsored Kirk´s son, David, providing him the protomatter he would use on the Genesis Torpedo, knowing he would fail badly and disgrace his father.

If Kirk had known his father I think he’d have acted differently toward Nero. He may very well have wanted to avenge his death on Nero.
That being said the Kirk we have come to know possibly wouldn’t have. Despite the horrible murder of David Marcus he still tried to save Kruge by offering him his hand. Thats the kind of quality which makes Kirk the man that he is. Exceptional.

I will go back to something I posted quite a while ago, with regards to the Tremendous Trio:
Kirk – I believe his greatest character trait is that nothing is more important to him than his crew and his ship, and he is willing to do whatever it takes, including sacrificing himself, to insure their safety.
Spock – Brilliant, analytical, yet haunted by the loneliness he feels as a “man with no place to call home,” always trying to hide his emotions.
McCoy – A brilliant physician, passionate almost to a fault, entirely willing to go against the grain for what he believes is right and true.

IMO, these are the qualities that make these men great, and are the qualities that always stuck out in TOS. They may be in an alternate universe, but I believe these qualities transcend any dimension, and must always be true, because that’s who they are.

218. And he fought well. The first time he was drunk and out numbered. The next time they were Romulans. Not exactly a fair fight. Kirk has pointed out in TOS, angering Spock could prove fatal. I imagine Romulans would not be much different.

@221: I have argued that it wasn’t Kirk’s purpose to “beat” Spock in ST.09, but to force Spock to resign command. Getting beat up suit that purpose. Strategy.

He did the same thing to Ayel.

I thought the idea was that Kirk was a martial arts expert, whether it was expressed clearly in the film or not.

The choke he was suffering was clearly a gift to any one who knows anything about martial arts. You would endure something like that only because you want to, not because you can’t defeat the hold.

If anything was made clear it’s that this young Kirk is a thinking fighter. He’s wily. He thinks on the move. Adjusts. Misdirects. Plays along with the misperception about what’s going on as a way to trap the opponent.

He’s excellent at turning losing circumstances into winning opportunities. If there’s one exchange that defines Kirk in all the franchise, it’s that spectacular scene from TSFS after Kirk destroys the Enterprise, and they watch it flaming through the atmosphere.

Kirk: My God Bones. What have I done?

McCoy: What you had to do. What you always do. Turn death into a fighting chance to live.

dmduncan
and in the corbinite manuver poker was his game. Kirk doesn’t simply overpower his opponent.
Still I Kirk could not have beaten Spock if he tried. But once again settles for victory of a different sort. He adapts to the situation. Same goes with the Romulan. He doesn’t beat him up, he just kills him.

I disagree. In both Naked Time and This Side of Paradise, Kirk intentionally provokes Spock to snap him out of the virus and spore induced emotionalism.

The one time we get to see Kirk actually fight Spock in defense of his own life is in Amok Time, where Kirk did just fine, and there in a situation where he didn’t want to kill Spock, and where Kirk was at a biological disadvantage against Spock on his home world, thus prompting McCoy’s injection to even the odds.

It was McCoy’s so called “blunder” with the injection, giving Kirk a neuroparalyzer, that surely compromised his abilities and put him down and out.

Khan was also much stronger than Kirk. Kirk beat Khan because Kirk was the better fighter.

234. Mmmm. Maybe. But it’s been alluded to enough in both series and movies to leave me with the impression that Kirk can’t defeat him physically. I don’t think it would be mentioned several times if it weren’t the case. The writers would be misdirecting us for forty years. But that’s fine. He doesn’t have to be the strongest ever or even the best at everything. We all know his abilities and they speak for themselves. Bottom line, he doesn’t like to lose.

As long as they keep the old Kirk (William Shatner) out of the new movie, I’ll be happy. Understand I love the old Captain (Shatner) but his story was told already (he died). Vul;cans live longer, and old Spock (Nimoy) did a great handoff. All that’s left is to put Uhura, McCoy and Chekov more into the picture.

I have very little faith in the new Star Trek movie, especially if JJ Abrams is involved. I expect more crappy CGI effects, more camera shaking and more Willy Wonka and the Chocolate factory pipes. Every friggin minute we saw pipes in the last Trek movie and shameless plugs for Nokia.

The villain sucked in the last movie as did the plot and stupid Red Matter crapola.

Star Trek is all about ratings and profit now so don’t expect any real substance or adherence to canon.

JJ if you really want to make a decent Trek film, make the next movie about restoring the time line and the planet Vulcan. How about a movie that completely counteracts the last POS that you produced?

Personally, I’m entirely okay with Red Matter (and thought the lava-lamp look of it was one of the groovier, sixties-er things in a film that could have used a lot more groove), and when I make Red Matter jokes they’re inevitably about something else entirely …

“…Star Trek is all about ratings and profit now so don’t expect any real substance or adherence to canon….”

If it’s not about ratings and profit, what is the point in making a film, tv show, or any media? Just spend millions of dollars for the hell of it? And it’s the altered universe that has caused a deviation from canon, not the quest for ratings and profit. As for “real substance,” that is a subjective matter that is decided upon by each individual. “And in the end, the film you break is equal to the film I take.” Just a bit of levity there…

I agree. I probably should have worded my statement a bit differently, because I certainly believe the Supreme Court did, indeed, have the fans in mind when making this film — it wasn’t just about numbers and profits.
When I listened to Orci & Kurtzman’s commentary on the Blu-Ray STIV, it became even clearer to me that these guys know Star Trek — mythology, episodes, characters — at least as well as any Trek fan. When some people gripe about these guys ruining Star Trek, or ignoring canon, or inferring that they don’t know anything about Star Trek… well, it kinda bugs me.
So, I absolutely agree with you — if they weren’t thinking of the fans as well, we’d have gotten a complete re-boot, which may not have looked anything like what we called Star Trek. And, again, the fact that Nimoy was in the film certainly implies that this film CAME FROM Nimoy’s universe… and got morphed into this “new” universe. So, all the canon is still intact… we’re just not in the same “place” with it.

I certainly appreciate your agreeing with me, which makes it splendidly easier to agree with you. And in agreeing with each other, I find we are in total agreeance — which I find most agreeable. And now that we’ve cleared that up, wouldn’t you agree that we need to find another topic to agree upon?

“Khan was also much stronger than Kirk. Kirk beat Khan because Kirk was the better fighter.”

Kirk beat Khan because it suited the TOS writers’ purposes for him to do so ;) In the same way that the writers apparently often “dumbed down” other senior Starfleet officers in order to make Kirk look better by comparison (or so I read somewhere a while back, don’t ask me for a URL reference).

In reality, there is no way that Kirk could actually have beaten Khan in direct hand-to-hand combat, given that Khan managed to systematically claw his way to the top in an extremely brutal era compared to Kirk’s time, coupled with the fact that Sikhism encourages martial arts training in its most committed adherents and that it therefore stands to reason that the already-augmented Khan would have been very adept indeed at both armed and unarmed combat (something also mentioned in the recent novels and tied to Khan’s religious piety in his younger years before he seriously went off the rails).

Kirk was obviously supposed to be proficient enough in his own right, and definitely a ‘great fighter’, but he’s not Jason Bourne. He would have been beaten to a pulp by the ultramacho Sisko, let alone the ‘superhuman’ Khan or the average fully-trained Klingon warrior in his prime. The latter doesn’t mean Christopher Lloyd ;)

Having said that, as others on this thread have already mentioned, Kirk’s skill lay in strategic ingenuity and brilliantly unorthodox thinking. Therefore, if you want someone who will successfully outwit their opponent and win by pulling a rabbit out of the hat, Kirk’s your man.

However, if the situation requires more direct combat or an all-out large scale military conflict, then your best bet is the ‘take no prisoners, do whatever it takes’ bloodyminded and sometimes brutal ruthlessness of Sisko, someone who was very much a military guy (as opposed to the ‘explorer Kirk’ or the ‘diplomat Picard’) and, more to the point, someone whom absolutely nobody was able to psychologically intimidate or hurt no matter how hard they tried. In DS9, the trying-hard-to-be-even-more-Klingon-than-the-Klingons Worf was even described as secretly being scared of him.

Two very different people, I guess, although in some ways, out of all the captains depicted, Sisko was the most similar to Kirk in terms of general machismo and a willingness to break the rules. Despite that, Sisko would have had no problem with letting the hypothetical murderer of his son fall to his death and would quite possibly have thrown him off the cliff himself….and similarly, he wouldn’t have screamed “Khaaaaaaaan !!!” in reaction to the Khan’s barbs – he would’ve snarled some terrifying counter-threats and aggressively sworn vengeance right to Khan’s face while the latter was momentarily lost for words.

Before anyone starts shouting at me, I’m saying all this as a great fan of Kirk, so don’t get me wrong. My point is that the guy wins because he’s very, very good at psychologically outsmarting other people, not because he’s ‘practically invincible’ (like I said, he’s not Jason Bourne), and neither is he as tough physically or psychologically as a certain other goateed Captain who really is very much a ‘warrior’ in the traditional sense in terms of his basic psyche.

Of course, if Bob Orci & co wanted to give ‘the new Kirk’ a Daniel Craig-style makeover so that he really is shown to be phenomenal at martial arts and someone who also has the associated tough-as-nails mindset along with the required physique, then that’s a different matter entirely. Considering that, for a bunch of reasons we’re all aware of, the new Kirk has had to grow up much faster than the old one and has already been through much more difficult circumstances than the previous incarnation had experienced by the same age, a tougher and harder Kirk wouldn’t be unrealistic.

JAI. – while I agree with you that other captains have been “dumbed down” in comparison to Kirk, needlessly so – disturbingly so, and I like the fact that Kirk does have weaknesses, which make him more admirable as mentioned in my previous posts, I find your depection of Sisko interesting. Curious why Sisko is more of a worrior than Kirk. They both have life and death decisions to make and suffered great losses. I remember Sisko painfully deliberating over a decision to kill someone when the course of action seemed rather obvious. Don’t recall which episode but it was after the war had been waging for some time. Anyway maybe I need to reconsider Sisko’s character. Always liked how he flashed his teeth when he was pissed.

259: “Kirk beat Khan because it suited the TOS writers’ purposes for him to do so ;)”

It’s fiction. That’s true of everything in every episode.

The idea is that Kirk is not just abstractly brilliant. He expresses his intelligence physically as well, and that’s what makes him a good fighter.

He outsmarted the overconfident Khan, and that’s how he beat him. He used Khan’s own hubris against him. Hubris was Khan’s fatal flaw.

Kirk beat the Gorn captain the same way, though the Gorn was much stronger.

“In reality, there is no way that Kirk could actually have beaten Khan in direct hand-to-hand combat, given that Khan managed to systematically claw his way to the top in an extremely brutal era compared to Kirk’s time,”

1. Yeah sure. There was “no way” for Buster Douglas to beat the crap out of Mike Tyson either. Guess what?

They are fictional characters and Kirk did, indeed, beat Khan. That’s the end of the story. When you become in charge of the franchise you can write it how you want. Right now, you aren’t, and you can’t. Kirk did beat Khan. Yes, because the writers wanted him to beat Khan, just like they wanted there to be artificial gravity on a starship, transporters, phasers, tribbles, and Harcourt Fenton Mudd. So what?

2. I’m not sure what martial arts competence has to do with becoming a dictator. You don’t necessarily become dictator of a nation because you are good at kicking ass on an individual basis. Like that short Italian man who ruled France, you must be a charismatic leader for people to follow you and to do what you say, not because you have the best arm bars in the business.

And I don’t read Trek fiction and could not care less about how somebody portrayed the Eugenics Wars.

Bob, if you are still reading: If you do give Kirk some butt-kicking scenes, please please please make it realistic. I mean, hire a martial arts coach and choreograph some real recognizable moves so that what he’s doing does seem legitimate.

This has precedent: The gym scene where Kirk tries to teach Charlie some Jiu Jitsu in Charlie X.

Sisko: “Kirk, I’m going to send you to a court martial that will break you, and you’ll spend the rest of your life wondering if this was really worth it. I think I can live with it. Because I CAN live with it….I CAN live with it….”

;)

Okay, on a more serious note:

@ #261

“When you become in charge of the franchise you can write it how you want. Right now, you aren’t,

And I don’t read Trek fiction and could not care less about how somebody portrayed the Eugenics Wars.”

With all due respect, I think you may be taking this conversation a little too seriously. While I appreciate that ST and its major characters have deep emotional resonance for many fans, not least because of the emotional investment in the franchise during our younger years and the fact that we’re still been following it decades later, and that these issues can sometimes inadvertently become a little heated during disagreements, I think it’s important for us all to remember that this thread is just a friendly discussion between a bunch of people who all share one thing in common: We all have tremendous affection for Star Trek. You obviously have a great deal of knowledge of, and affection for, Kirk in particular; that’s perfectly fine and entirely understandable (as I said earlier, I think Kirk’s great too), but I think that any “real friction” in this debate is unnecessary.

Having said that, I do agree with most of your other points in #261. As for Khan’s martial background, unlike certain Italian autocrats who took over France, in Khan’s case his own skills in physical combat would have been a result of the strong formative influence on him. Trust me; two things that (the fictional) Khan and I both share is that not only are we both Indian, we’re also both Sikhs. Due to certain historical events, the “martial spirit” — not just the associated mentality, but ideally also fighting skills — is a very big deal in the Sikh religion and the associated culture of Sikhs specifically and Punjabis in general.

The latter is still frequently a strong influence on people from that background even if they’re not necessarily particularly devout themselves. It wasn’t a coincidence that the historical records of 19th century British imperialists state that they found the independent Sikh power in the north of India to be amongst the toughest military adversaries they’d ever faced anywhere in the world, and that it eventually took two extremely bloody wars of aggression (and, particularly, some tragic internal betrayals after the brilliant & charismatic ruler of the Sikh kingdom had died) before the Sikhs were finally defeated and their extensive territories were annexed. The East India Company actually ended up outlawing traditional Sikh martial arts because they’d proved so horrifyingly effective against them on the battlefield, although they’re now undergoing something of a revival. Given that the physically-and-mentally-augmented Khan is supposed to be from exactly that background, with the associated cultural and religious influences during his formative years, later coupled with his own ambition and lust for power, he would indeed have been very proficient in multiple martial arts even if he didn’t necessarily need use of them directly after he had actually seized power in his own era.

Anyway, as I said earlier, at the end of the day we’re talking about completely fictional characters, so we can amicably agree to disagree if necessary. As I also said previously, I really love a number of the suggestions you’ve made earlier on this thread and you’re continuing to make superb points (including #262), and I wholeheartedly believe that it’s exactly the level of intelligence and emotional sensitivity which would be extremely beneficial for the next couple of Trek movies.

He didn’t start off that way, but he ended up having a noticeably more warlike personality and demeanour, and it became increasingly overt from “The Way of the Warrior” onwards. Maybe it was supposed to be a reaction to changing external circumstances, most of all involving the threat from the Dominion and Sisko’s increasingly close partnership with the Klingons, although I read somewhere a while back that Avery Brooks did want to “emotionally cut loose” in his portrayal of Sisko and that the programme makers eventually gave him free rein to do so. Within a short space of time after Sisko shaved his head and grew that beard, you can see that he steadily becomes far more of a testosterone-fuelled, extremely assertive (sometimes overbearing) Alpha Male than his comparatively more restrained, “quieter” personality during DS9’s earlier seasons. The later Sisko is also much more overtly assertive than Kirk, who’s more laid back in his manner.

My earlier comments weren’t in any way intended to be a personal attack against Kirk or to set up some kind of “adversarial” situation between them; Kirk and Sisko are both great characters and obviously great (fictional) men in their own right, but they both have different strengths. I think Kirk is better as an explorer, particular in extremely unfamiliar situations or when encountering really, really “alien” entities (in the real sense of the term); Sisko’s inherently warlike temperament and forcefully assertive stance makes him a better military commander, especially in situations involving all-out war. In one DS9 episode – I think it was “Valiant” – Sisko is also explicitly described as “one of the best combat officers in the fleet”.

Personally I think the best episodes that demonstrate Sisko’s warrior spirit are “In the Pale Moonlight”, “For the Uniform”, and “Apocalypse Now”, although I’m sure there are plenty of other (better) examples. Kirk obviously bends – if not breaks – the rules, but he’s more overtly a “hero” in both his personality and his actions; Sisko has considerably darker shades to his personality and, whilst obviously one of the good guys, his aggressive nature and willingness to compromise his ethics in extreme circumstances means he’s more of a “bad guy who happens to fight for good” like the recent depiction of Batman. It was also the reason that Sisko made such a convincing Klingon in “Apocalypse Now”; you can’t imagine Kirk managing to pull off something like that.

These aren’t exactly analogous scenarios in the villain departments, but another example which comes to mind are Kirk’s reactions to Khan’s betrayal in “Space Seed” and his eventual confrontation with him in TWOK, compared to Sisko’s vendetta against Eddington in “For the Uniform”. If you’ve seen the latter then you’ll know what I mean, and it perfectly demonstrates my point about Sisko’s warrior character, his response to being betrayed, and his belligerent “Don’t **** with me” reactions to adversaries who try to needle him.

Sisko’s fundamentally a decent guy at heart, of course, and I must stress that he’s my favourite ST captain, but he is definitely someone you should never pick a fight with and the wrong person to cross. Kirk would do what’s morally required in such circumstances; Sisko would deliberately terrify the hell out of you, then he’d break you psychologically, and if he thought he was justified he’d finally throw you to the flames without any remorse. “In the Pale Moonlight” is a particularly good example which shows this, although there are obviously a number of other great episodes as I said above.

And yes, I also thought it was brilliant when a shouty, snarling Sisko bared his teeth. The guy was more like a Klingon in some ways ;)

@265: What I do know about Sikhism made me imagine Khan more as a lapsed Sikh, who fell into the trap of seeking power, perhaps as a result of the controlled upbringing by his handlers, being a product of genetic engineering. To that end I also imagine him growing up and educated in England perhaps, and thus more easily isolated from his cultural roots and more amenable to influence by those who created him.

And this fits in perfectly. I imagine those who created him to be Fabians, of the cast of George Bernard Shaw, who was also a eugenicist.

While I imagine that Khan might be proficient in martial arts, I don’t imagine him as necessarily being the best, partly because as a charismatic leader I think those he would tend to spar with would out of deference NOT always tend to give him the level of competition that someone who’s really interested in beating your ass would give you. The difference may be subtle, but significant in its long term results.

The eastern martial arts were not well practiced in the west until the latter part of the 20th century. Now they have spread around the world. Jiu Jitsu began in Japan, yet so many of the world’s best competitive practitioners now come from Brazil.

I imagine that at Starfleet Academy they might be rigorously taught as well. If I was writing about Kirk’s years at the academy, I would portray him as a natural martial artist and intramural champion. Some people are like that. BJ Penn is a great example.

That would make him more than a match for Khan in physical intelligence, if not in physical strength.

266 Jai- “My earlier comments weren’t in any way intended to be a personal attack against Kirk or to set up some kind of “adversarial” situation between them; Kirk and Sisko are both great characters”

Nor did i see it that way. I have never thought of Sisko in quite that light nor have i heard him described that way. I enjoyed having a tough captain again and so I liked Sisko. I have to admit that while I know all the TOS episode titles and I’ve seen all of DS9, I don’t know those by name. DS9 was the only other series I liked besides TOS. It took three seasons but I thought the writing was great. You bring up some interesting points. Sisko did seem to look up at Kirk in trials and tribbleations, though you might argue because he was an historical figure. Still, he seemed very excited at the prospect of meeting Kirk in person. Kirk may have even influenced a young Sisko. I don’t see him a quite the alpha-male that you do. I’ll have to have another look.

Harry, I’m sorry, but I totally (burrrrrrrrppp! excuse me!) disagree with you on that. I thought Avery Brooks got better as the series went along, especially after he shaved his head and grew a goatee. There was great chemistry between him/Sisko and Marc Alaimo/Gul Dukat.

“What I do know about Sikhism made me imagine Khan more as a lapsed Sikh, who fell into the trap of seeking power, perhaps as a result of the controlled upbringing by his handlers, being a product of genetic engineering.”

That also happens to be what the (non-canonical, as far as I know) Eugenics Wars novels describe, but in any case I personally agree completely with this part of your speculation. It’s the logical explanation.

“To that end I also imagine him growing up and educated in England perhaps,”

Hmmm. I’m going to have to politely disagree with you about this point; if this had been the case, then like the British-born-and-educated Dr Julian Bashir (apparently the DS9 writers deliberately created the character as a British person of Indian or Pakistani descent), Khan would have had a British accent. Those of us who really have grown up in Britain and were educated here (and there are hundreds of thousands of us) don’t actually speak with a noticeable Indian accent…..not even the Ricardo Montalban version of it ;)

“That would make him more than a match for Khan in physical intelligence, if not in physical strength.”

Quite possibly, although Khan would still intrinsically have much faster reflexes (not just greater strength), at least if the references to genetically-engineered physical augmentation in some the more recent Trek shows apply. It would also make sense that the scientists who genetically engineered Khan would have given him “the full package” of augmentation, which presumably played at least some part in why Khan was able to successfully rise to power during his own era, especially if he was directly involved in any fighting himself (as opposed to being in a purely commanding role).

“While I imagine that Khan might be proficient in martial arts, I don’t imagine him as necessarily being the best, partly because as a charismatic leader I think those he would tend to spar with would out of deference NOT always tend to give him the level of competition that someone who’s really interested in beating your ass would give you.”

That’s also a very good point, but canonically Khan wasn’t a leader from the outset; his rise to the upper echelons of pan-Asian power happened later, so he would have been involved in fairly rigorous training and sparring with “equals” during his younger days.

However, I do agree with most of the rest of your points, especially the fact that by the 23rd century, people would have had centuries to familiarise themselves with all kinds of martial arts and, being partially a military organisation, Starfleet officers in particular would theoretically be very good indeed at such combat. As you mentioned in one of your earlier comments, hopefully the new movies will depict all that more accurately (as Star Trek: Enterprise did), rather than the wrestling/chopping hand movements/vaguely martial-artsy fighting in TOS.

“Kirk doesn’t like to lose.”

You know, coincidentally exactly the same phrase occurred to me during the past few days – it’s a great line from TWOK, isn’t it ? ;) Especially coupled with Kirk’s understatedly-aggressive applebiting ;)

Anyway, as I’ve said on earlier threads, if the writers of the new movies do include Khan, hopefully they’ll take the story in a very different direction. I’ve already offered some suggestions of my own on this forum –- Khan is defrosted by Kirk & co a decade earlier than the events of TOS, doesn’t try to kill Kirk or take over the Enterprise (hence, no “Space Seed”, betrayal, marooning, or TWOK) but decides to grab the far bigger prize of trying to seize power over the entire Federation –- but it’ll be fascinating to see what actually happens. All I can add is to re-iterate the following: If possible, cast Javier Bardem if Khan is going to be shown as a fortysomething, or cast Indian actor Hrithik Roshan if he’s going to be in his mid/late thirties. Both actors were born to play this role.

“I’ve known some Sikh’s but never heard of their martial arts interest, though I am somwhat aware of the colonial conflict.”

It’s obviously going to vary depending on the individual’s personal temperament, but generally, physical prowess is a really big deal amongst Sikhs (and in Punjabi culture as a whole); historically it’s not just because of the colonial period, but originates in various escalating conflicts with the ruling Mughal emperors and their administration (and to a lesser extent with some local Hindu kings) during the era of the Mughal Empire. It’s a long story, but because of certain Sikh religious ideals and the subsequent cultural legacy, Sikhs are encouraged to be able to physically defend themselves and the weak/vulnerable against unjustified aggression and persecution; also, historically some formal martial arts (particularly involving swordfighting) which were traditionally practised by Indian professional soldiers of the time were embraced and adapted by Sikhs, and although the East India Company officially outlawed them, they were still preserved by various Sikh traditional groups in India and continue to this day.

To a great extent the Klingons were obviously supposed to be an amalgamation of various real-life human “martial cultures” such as Samurai, Mongols, Pashtuns etc, but for those of us from Indian backgrounds it was interesting to see that Ron D. Moore in particular threw in a lot of stuff from Indian culture too (some of the Klingon family dynamics were especially familiar); it included quite a few references to Sikhs, including the name of Kahless (from “Khalsa” or “Khalis”), the exalted place of the sword in orthodox culture, and certain baptism rituals involving double-edged bladed weapons. Relax, the latter doesn’t actually involve any bloodletting in the case of Sikhs ;) Even the references to attacks by the Hurq and the resulting devastation of the Klingon homeworld “a thousand years ago”, including the pillaging of holy relics, duplicate what actually happened in northern India during the 11th century because of various “invasion expeditions” from Afghanistan. (There were plenty of non-Klingon examples in DS9 too).

RDM mentioned in some interviews or online conversations (can’t remember which) around the time of Battlestar Galactica that he has an active interest in Indian history and culture, and his considerable knowledge of this subject is very clear to those of us who are from that background ourselves.

“Is your interest in Khan purely cultural?”

No, not at all. Khan’s cultural background obviously raises smiles of recognition from South Asian fans of Trek, especially those of us who are Sikh or Punjabi ourselves, but apart from that I like Khan for the same reasons as everyone else: He’s a brilliantly complex character, a charismatic and highly effective opponent to Kirk (who himself admitted a sneaking admiration for Khan in TOS, albeit in a tongue-in-cheek way to tease Spock), made a great sympathetic villain who wasn’t necessarily a pantomime “evil Dark Lord”, and was superbly played by Ricardo Montalban with the requisite level of gravitas and, er, suaveness. Apart from the mullet in TWOK, but let’s not go there :)

“I have to admit that while I know all the TOS episode titles and I’ve seen all of DS9, I don’t know those by name.”

While writing on this thread, I have to admit to finding myself slightly disturbed by how good my memory is when it comes to certain DS9 episodes ;) Although I think I redeemed myself by confusing the “Apocalypse” title. Jokes aside, one of the local cable channels here is showing late-night reruns of DS9, which is why I can remember the titles of some of my favourite episodes.

“In the Pale Moonlight” was the episode when Sisko plots and schemes to trick the Romulans into joining the war against the Dominion, and is ultimately successful in doing so. It contains the famous line “It’s a faaaaake !” and, at the very end, Sisko’s own repeated statements of “I can live with it” despite the violence and corruption he’s actively participated in. It was a fanastic episode for Garak (and the actor who played him) too, as the metaphorical Devil that Sisko was “dancing with in the moonlight” and convincing him to do all these dark deeds.

(By the way, on another Trek blog a while back I also stumbled across another brilliant twist in the plot that isn’t initially obvious: Garak had been planning to assassinate that Romulan senator all along, hence his request for some banned substance via Bashir that can be used for a range of dubious purposes including explosives. Garak wasn’t asking for this on anybody else’s behalf, despite what he told Sisko – he actually wanted it himself…and it means that none of Garak’s alleged “contacts” which he needed to “call in favours from” were killed. In fact, they probably didn’t exist in this case at all. Very clever writing by RDM & co, isn’t it…)

“For the Uniform” was when Sisko goes after Eddington and steadily becomes more and more aggressive, eventually breaking all the rules and eagerly embracing the role of the villain of the piece in order to ruthlessly do what was required to win.

“Apocalypse Rising” was when Sisko and a few of his officers go undercover as Klingons to expose Gowron as a Changeling, although it turned out to be Martok instead. Sisko made a fantastic Klingon (as DS9 progresses, you get the impression that Sisko gets on so well with the Klingons because he can personally identify with some of their more macho traits). Apparently this was also the episode which subsequently won JG Hetzler a regular role as Martok, since he was so impressively charismatic in the role and a very popular with viewers. I think he was originally supposed to be permanently killed off in this episode.

“Sisko did seem to look up at Kirk in trials and tribbleations, though you might argue because he was an historical figure. Still, he seemed very excited at the prospect of meeting Kirk in person.”

Of course; Kirk was a great historical figure by this time, and someone who played such a pivotal part in Federation history during a period when “what was out there” was still much more unknown and unpredictable; not least via his use of “cowboy diplomacy”, as I vaguely remember Janeway mentioning in Voyager (she also said that someone like that would get thrown out of Starfleet in her own era, although she obviously admired Kirk too).

RDM’s writing worked wonders for DS9; he did an absolutely fantastic job during the later seasons.

“I’ve known some Sikh’s but never heard of their martial arts interest, though I am somwhat aware of the colonial conflict.”

It’s a very long story and would probably involve me accidentally irritating this website’s owners by going too far off-topic, so I guess I’d better keep this brief ;)

To answer your question: It’s obviously going to vary depending on the individual’s personal temperament, but generally, physical prowess is a really big deal amongst Sikhs (and in Punjabi culture as a whole); historically it’s not just because of the colonial period, but originates in various escalating conflicts during the Mughal era. Due to certain events and various associated theological developments, Sikhs as a group became highly militarised; this included embracing various forms of armed and unarmed martial arts, for defensive purposes and also to develop mental & physical self-discipline. Eventually it became formally integrated into the religion and it has consequently had an ongoing impact on Sikh & Punjabi culture as a whole.

Taking this back directly to Star Trek, some of the above was also explicitly mentioned in the recent “Eugenics Wars” novels, particularly in relation to Khan himself, and including accurate depictions of both traditional Sikh weaponry and Sikh martial arts in general; it was impressive to see that the author of the novels had clearly done his homework. Khan’s (very) diplomatically-worded explanation of exactly why he made the decision to abandon the outer symbols of orthodox Sikhism (beard, uncut hair, turban etc) and also ended up deviating so widely from the faith’s ethical ideals in terms of his own aggressive & Machiavellian behaviour also made me smile. Again, very intelligent and sensitive writing by the author.

“Is your interest in Khan purely cultural?”

No, not at all. Khan’s cultural background obviously raises smiles of recognition from South Asian fans of Trek, especially those who are Sikh or Punjabi themselves, but apart from that I like Khan for the same reasons as everyone else: He’s a brilliantly complex character, a charismatic and highly effective opponent to Kirk (who himself admitted a sneaking admiration for Khan in TOS, albeit in a tongue-in-cheek way to tease Spock), made a great sympathetic villain who wasn’t necessarily a pantomime “evil Dark Lord”, and was superbly played by Ricardo Montalban with the requisite level of gravitas and, er, suaveness. Apart from the mullet in TWOK, but let’s not go there :)

JAI – Thanks for the information. I will look more into it. And though I am one of those who would rather not see Khan again or any other movie or episode redone or portrayed in some type of fashion, I’ve learned a better appreciation for the character. You almost changed my mind. :)

287: “Hmmm. I’m going to have to politely disagree with you about this point; if this had been the case, then like the British-born-and-educated Dr Julian Bashir (apparently the DS9 writers deliberately created the character as a British person of Indian or Pakistani descent), Khan would have had a British accent. Those of us who really have grown up in Britain and were educated here (and there are hundreds of thousands of us) don’t actually speak with a noticeable Indian accent…..not even the Ricardo Montalban version of it ;)”

Exactly. Hence the reason for my pushing Mark Strong as the leading non Indian candidate to play the role. He’s a British actor, and a good one at that. He’s also of Italian descent, which is why he’s two shades darker than your average Anglo (I’m the same way).

(As far as I can tell, Ricardo Montalban made no effort to speak with anything but his natural accent).

I’ve been in some heated debates on Trekmovie strongly pushing for an Indian in the role of Khan. I think I made a strong case in favor of it.

However, I have no control over the decision.

And if they should opt NOT to go that route, I can’t think of a better non Indian actor to fill the role than Mark Strong.

dmduncan – Gotta agree with you. If they go with Khan, I’d prefer an Indian actor, …and a character similar to one you and JAI have described. I thought Sulu should have been played a Japanese-American myself.

If they want to tap into the classic antagonist thing….it was, after all, the Klingons who acted as James T. Kirk’s most often recurring nemesis in the original series. Not to say they should tap into that kind of thing at all, but…I’m just sayin’.

By the way… long time, no see, Trekmovie! It has been about 9 months or so since I last posted, and it’s funny to see the same conversations going on. :)

Closettrekker couldn’t get out of his closet. The doors were automated replicas of the ones seen on the original series. The manufacturers were so confident of themselves they didn’t bother including a manual override, such as a knob. And the doors also continuously made the sliding noise even though they were stuck shut!

The Sikh version of Shastar Vidiya is more commonly known as ‘Gatka’ these days, although as the Independent article indicates, the latter is a slight misnomer. Along with Nidar Singh Nihang, a gentleman called Uptej Singh is also a high-profile practitioner of the martial art here in Britain; Uptej was one of the people being interviewed in one of the Youtube clips in #288 and shown giving live demonstrations both in the television studio and in the presence of Prince Charles and his wife Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall.

You can also see a short 6-minute BBC documentary about Gatka and Uptej Singh’s own activities here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRK5dSuBN8I . It’s a fantastic summary of the history involved, the ethos behind the martial art, and current practitioners’ views….and things become jawdroppingly impressive from the 5-minute mark onwards, when the sword-twirling Uptej gives another amazing performance of his skills whilst blindfolded.

As the BBC clip above shows, Uptej runs formal classes at the Indian equivalent of ‘dojos’ at a couple of locations in London. More information on his organisation’s website: http://www.internationalgatka.org/bfs/BFS_Class_Location_Times.htm . It includes contact details for Uptej, so if anyone reading this wants to suggest to him that he should run classes in America too, I guess this is the best way to get in touch with him.

At the bottom of the screen, there are also some inspirational quotes from the historical Sikh religious/military leader from the late 17th century who was primarily responsible for militarising the Sikh population. The quotes give a flavour of the spirit behind all this — it’s quite stirring stuff ;)

As I said earlier, some of these fighting techniques and weapons were described in the Eugenics Wars novels, specifically in relation to Khan, but it’s obviously even more impressive actually seeing all this in real life.

No problem about the info. And no problem about Khan either….Admit it – even though you’re fighting the urge, a part of you is increasingly curious about him making an appearance in the new movies. Just a little bit ;)

Dmduncan

@ #295

Very interesting suggestion about Mark Strong. You’re right, he could well be superb as Khan. He almost stole the show in “Robin Hood”, he has a suitably charismatic speaking manner too, and the guy really does look Punjabi (facial features, not just skin tone). Quite possibly a brilliant choice for a non-Indian actor.

I’ve already mentioned the following on a couple of other threads, but since there may be people here who haven’t read those, a guy called Hrithik Roshan would be the perfect choice if they do decide to cast an Indian actor. He’s already an extremely successful superstar in the Indian film industry who’s won numerous awards for both a “charismatic villain” role and a “regal ruler of millions” role respectively. Apparently he’s very keen to star in Hollywood too. You can see some photos here: http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&q=hrithik+roshan+dhoom+2&aq=f&aqi=g6&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=2ab7e725b4987cbb . I think the first photo in particular (on the left) shows why he’d be perfect as Khan in terms of his appearance, although anyone familiar with his career to date and particularly his acting in those two awardwinning roles would understand why he’d be a fantastic choice for those reasons too.

Anyway, as you said, the rest of us don’t actually have any control over the decision. Ultimately, all we can do is put the information out there, and hopefully it’ll be picked up & considered by the right people involved.

Jai – Yeah, maybe. The thing is I don’t want to see the franchise’s new lease on life stall or become trapped by its previous success. So many stories remain untold, I feel, and since Khan was already a movie, this impression would be unavoidable. I also believe those who are lobbying for a non-villian storyline may be on to something. As a sub-plot I wouldn’t mind see a few familiar faces but even so, Khan brings too much baggage in my opinion. Now having said that I admit that the fresh angles that you and dmduncan present are intriguing. And the fact that Mr. Orci mentioned that he was reading the very story you base your interpertation on leads me to believe he may be leaning in that direction… or he is attempting a ruse. In any event it was no accident. You may see your wish realized yet. :)

You mean more unlikely than another Prime universe character would be able to create a 75 years younger exact duplicate of his universe, drag him and his Nemesis to it while experiencing time dilation effects that only effect him leaving his Nemesis 25 years to chronoform history to taste? That kind of unlikely?

I was just toying with the notion that Bashir’s G.E. might in someway be Augment derived and if the two would meet that Khan might somehow recognize Bashir as one of his own.

From the point of view of DS9, several mechanisms exist for such a confrontation to occur.

But waol is right, any hint that the current film narrative should explore this is a jest, a kid, a gentle ribbing.

But after writing all that, if Khan does pop up, it would be interesting to have him cross paths with Bashir’s incubator. For that matter, we don’t really know how long the infusion process for Bashir’s enhancements took? It could have involved freezing the embryo for long periods of time for all we know.

I think I better stop typing before I start suggesting that Khan of the 1990s didn’t just put all his chips on the sleeper ship for the win and start seeing Bashir as the mechanism for Khan’s rebooted reemergence.

” I also believe those who are lobbying for a non-villian storyline may be on to something”

That’s definitely another option. I actually enjoy both The Motion Picture and TWOK equally — both are very epic in their own way — even though the two movies are obviously very different beasts. The Voyage Home is of course another film which was a huge success and very entertaining despite not actually having a villain in any conventional sense.

“You may see your wish realized yet. :)”

Indeed. Time will tell :)

“But after writing all that, if Khan does pop up, it would be interesting to have him cross paths with Bashir’s incubator. For that matter, we don’t really know how long the infusion process for Bashir’s enhancements took? It could have involved freezing the embryo for long periods of time for all we know.”

Interesting idea, but the events behind Bashir’s enhancements were covered in relative detail in an episode of DS9. He was born in the 24th century with various physical & neurological developmental issues — not enough to be severely handicapped, but sufficient for him to be markedly disadvantaged compared to his peers, and with the potential to cause lifelong problems for him — so during his childhood, Bashir’s parents illegally procured genetic treatment to try to correct the problems. He ended up being augmented considerably above the average for humans in most aspects (strength, reflexes, hand-eye coordination, memory skills, intellect, cognitive aptitude etc), but fortunately he didn’t also gain the arrogance and megalomania of Khan and his friends. Bashir himself was young enough at the time to be able to start a new life afresh, but old enough to still be able to remember these traumatic & confusing events by the time of DS9.

However, what wasn’t discussed was exactly who performed the necessary genetic augmentation on behalf of Bashir’s parents, so I guess there’s an opening there if any writers wanted to connect it to Khan. To some extent Star Trek: Enterprise also covered this angle — not with Bashir, but with some other augments involving the legacy of the scientific research which had originally resulted in Khan, and also involving some gleefully manic acting by Brent Spiner as the scientist performing these experiments in Archer’s era.

It seems clear from what little is gradually returning to my memory what was done to him was considered illegal. So who’s to say what genetic material was the source of his enhancements.?

And it has been established that Starfleet doctors can walk around carrying other people’s marbles. But I suppose that’s only a way for Khan to return in a DS9 production many years from now? What I find intriguing about this Khan is he would be just a dangerous as the Khan that awoke on The Botany Bay but with none of the baggage of the film version.

On a related topic but more relevant to the current state of film affairs: I’ve been pondering if there’s an interesting way to explain the news blackout in our time on Khan?

I’ve been toying with the notion that what if the exact nature of the genetic procedures used to produce him and the others was so repugnant to human sensibilities the world over that TPTB determined they had to keep a lid on it or risk Luddite backlash that would set the planet back a thousand years.

Khan’s campaigns are real but the physical scars on the planet are being explained as natural disasters, global warming, or what not.

The most likely base of operations for him would be Sri Lanka. Might be a nice twist to have it that Clarke didn’t actually die of natural causes but because he stood up to Khan.

The only trouble I see with this angle is that it makes Khan’s story lean more on his Frankenstein aspects than it did before?

“So who’s to say what genetic material was the source of his enhancements.?”

Good point ;)

“And it has been established that Starfleet doctors can walk around carrying other people’s marbles. But I suppose that’s only a way for Khan to return in a DS9 production many years from now?”

Theoretically, but Khan died at the end of TWOK and nobody else (alive) was with him at the time.

“What I find intriguing about this Khan is he would be just a dangerous as the Khan that awoke on The Botany Bay but with none of the baggage of the film version.”

Yep; a couple of us on this website have made similar observations in our own suggestions. He’s going to be very dangerous and power-hungry regardless of who defrosts him or exactly when he’s defrosted.

“I’ve been pondering if there’s an interesting way to explain the news blackout in our time on Khan?

I’ve been toying with the notion that what if the exact nature of the genetic procedures used to produce him and the others was so repugnant to human sensibilities the world over that TPTB determined they had to keep a lid on it or risk Luddite backlash that would set the planet back a thousand years.

Khan’s campaigns are real but the physical scars on the planet are being explained as natural disasters, global warming, or what not.”

The (so far non-canon) Eugenics Wars novels cover all that in detail. The author has clearly given those issues a lot of thought so I’m sure you’d find the books interesting reading too, at least for one version explanating Khan’s possible back-story.

Galaxy Quest was a better Star Trek movie than xi. All Jar Jar Abrams did was make another Star Wars for unthinking 4th-graders and put it in a Starfleet uniform. He removed the heart, the majesty, the gravitas, the very soul of Trek and replaced it with product placement (in a supposedly post-commercial world), cheesy X-Box effects (and story) and ludicrously absurd “science”. Who but an ergonomic moron would put bridge lighting where it shines directly in the faces of anyone supposedly trying to read a display? It’s like trying to fly an airliner at night with people shining flashlights in your eyes. “You canna change the laws of physics”, which in this case means that you can’t drive an aircraft carrier like a Jet Ski. Roddenberry’s whole point was that it was about people improving themselves. Abrams made it all about people being a$$holes. And FCS buy a tripod!