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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by Straybow

Yes, I seem to be off on draw by a factor of two. Cranking the cranquin is 25 seconds, but you've neglected the time of retrieving the device, attaching it to the stock, setting the catch, and then carefully detaching the device from the crossbow (no "safety" switch to prevent accidental release) and stowing it (you don't just drop it to the ground, where dirt can get in the gears and speed corrosion).

Well, actually, safety switch were present in crossbows at least since late 15th century, though obviosuly they were mostly present in hunting examples, where additional complication wasn't really a problem.

And general maneuvering the cranequin is easy, and one can even shoot with one still attached, if really needed.

Windlass is more of a problem here.

Avatar by Kwarkpudding

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.

Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by Yora

Funny you mention this know. I just learned about this kind of sword some weeks ago.
I am pretty sure it's a Yatagan, the base of the grip makes it quite distinctive and the blade shape also matches. Size seems about average. Most yatagans were made from the 1750s to the 1850s in Turkey, but it could be older or more recent, or from a completely different place.
The insciption is probably arabic, maybe it has some useful information as well. It looks somewhat unusual though, but I can't read any form of arabic.
Given the amount of decoration, it's probably a private item and not mass produced for the military. But from a first glance, it still looks completely functional. The decorations look kind of painted on on the photos, so my guess would be that it was not a terribly expensive custom made sword for a rich person. But I don't know anything about price ranges for swords in the otoman empire, so it's a total guess. Though I would assume it's for someone who can afford a more expensive sword that the common man, but still does not have a bottomless purse.

I think the best way to learn more would be find someone who can descipher the inscription on the blade.
Also, it should be cleaned of the rust. It will only get worse if left in this state.

Yes that is a Yataghan (they actually date back from at least the 14th Century, but I agree this one is probably 18th or 19th) it looks like a pretty nice one to me, and it's in a fairly bad state of rust. It's worth at least a few hundred dollars, could be much more. But you would need to have it cleaned by someone who knows what they are doing. Yora is right if you leave it in that state it will be ruined pretty soon.

G

“The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.”

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by zlefin

how hard is it to throw a weapon (e.g. grenade, throwing knife) while prone?

The technique for throwing a grenade prone is to roll on your back, pull the pin, take the grenade in your right hand, grab some ground with your left and then roll to your left as you whip your right hand, releasing near the top of the arc.

This lets the roll add some momentum and adds some distance to your throw. It's ok, but not as far as you could throw from standing.

Best hope you are prone behind some cover, since you won't be able to throw an average hand grenade beyond it's casualty radius like this.

It's not bad for tossing over the enemy's cover, when he's close enough that you want to stay prone and don't feel safe enough to come up to your knees for a better throw.

Out of wine comes truth, out of truth the vision clears, and with vision soon appears a grand design. From the grand design we can understand the world. And when you understand the world, you need a lot more wine.

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Are there any unarmed martial art techniques that would functionally allow a single, or small group (say four), eight year old children fight and defeat an armed (say a halberd with a dagger as backup) and armoured adult? Armour wise pick something made of metal and comman to an era where halberds were used.

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Little guys shoot for the legs, as quickly and with good timing as they can, and hope that mass attack and confusion connected with it will mean that guy won't have time to hit anyone with halberd, I guess.

Of course with coordination, from all directions if possible, to not give much chance. Then somebody grabs said dagger, the rest is obvious...

Even if one is unfairly bigger, stronger and more skilled, grappling four opponents will be rather impossible.

Though wrestling shot against something with groin at your head height would be rather funny.

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Last edited by Spiryt; 2012-09-19 at 03:30 PM.

Avatar by Kwarkpudding

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.

Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by Beleriphon

Are there any unarmed martial art techniques that would functionally allow a single, or small group (say four), eight year old children fight and defeat an armed (say a halberd with a dagger as backup) and armoured adult? Armour wise pick something made of metal and comman to an era where halberds were used.

Assuming that the halberd-bearer isn't a complete novice, probably not. Their opponent is unarmed (major disadvantage), a couple of feet shorter with proportionally shorter reach (major disadvantage) and hugely inferior weight (major disadvantage in unarmed combat especially), AND what height and weight they have isn't optimally developed yet in terms of applied strength - their body is still geared for growth, not for power/labor.

I know that we're used to a D&D environment where a four-foot-tall halfling can somehow apply just as much power as a human adult, but realistically this is not a winnable fight. Any given child has neither the strength to do damage directly nor even the strength to apply holds or joint-based damage through leverage; he's going to get at absolute minimum one attack before they close to striking distance, and almost every blow from halberd or dagger will be incapacitating or fatal.

I mean, it's not completely impossible, but it would involve the adult making at least a couple of GIGANTIC mistakes.

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by Beleriphon

Are there any unarmed martial art techniques that would functionally allow a single, or small group (say four), eight year old children fight and defeat an armed (say a halberd with a dagger as backup) and armoured adult? Armour wise pick something made of metal and comman to an era where halberds were used.

Crossbows.

The fastest animal alive today is a small dinosaur, Falco Peregrino.
It prays mainly on other dinosaurs, which it strikes and kills in midair with its claws.This is a good world

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by Beleriphon

Are there any unarmed martial art techniques that would functionally allow a single, or small group (say four), eight year old children fight and defeat an armed (say a halberd with a dagger as backup) and armoured adult? Armour wise pick something made of metal and comman to an era where halberds were used.

Plot immunity-fu.

Other than that, get him to chase one of you and have a trip wire ambush set up.

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by Beleriphon

Are there any unarmed martial art techniques that would functionally allow a single, or small group (say four), eight year old children fight and defeat an armed (say a halberd with a dagger as backup) and armoured adult? Armour wise pick something made of metal and comman to an era where halberds were used.

No, they will be chopped up into sashimi.

G

“The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.”

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

I guess most people know the bullet into water tests by mythbusters, which do explain things quite well and don't leave much questions, at least to me.

Now I was looking into sandbags as bullet stoppers and found some info at Box of Truth. And there seems to be something similar going on. Pistol bullets penetrate about 6 inch before stopping and rifle bullets just shatter on impact.
I don't know what difference hollow point or FMJ would make and I don't think they say which they used, but it was the same effect on shotgun slugs, so it probably doesn't matter.

But why does sand work so exceptionally well while cinderblocks and wood don't?

“Hither came Conan the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet.”

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by Yora

I guess most people know the bullet into water tests by mythbusters, which do explain things quite well and don't leave much questions, at least to me.

Now I was looking into sandbags as bullet stoppers and found some info at Box of Truth. And there seems to be something similar going on. Pistol bullets penetrate about 6 inch before stopping and rifle bullets just shatter on impact.
I don't know what difference hollow point or FMJ would make and I don't think they say which they used, but it was the same effect on shotgun slugs, so it probably doesn't matter.

But why does sand work so exceptionally well while cinderblocks and wood don't?

short answer is sand "bends" when wood "brakes", i.e. a bag of sand will deform under the impact, absorbing energy all the way. the bullet has to physically push the sand out of the way, whereas with wood, once it;s pushed past it's strucutal limits it breaks and doesn't really resist the bullet

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by Yora

IBut why does sand work so exceptionally well while cinderblocks and wood don't?

Same reason the Mythbusters found that a .50cal round makes a gawdawful splash but doesn't go very far into the water. Functionally when dealing with bullet impacts the more that a substance can absorb the energy and deform under the impact the more resistant it will be to penetration.

Really sand has more incommon with fluids than it does with most solids. I'd really like to see what a non-Newtonian fluid would do to a bullet. Something like equal parts corn starch and water.

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

So it's because sand does not snap or splinter, moving itself out of the bullets path?

“Hither came Conan the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet.”

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by Yora

So it's because sand does not snap or splinter, moving itself out of the bullets path?

Its more that each individual grain of sand absorbs energy by itself and also transfers energy away from a bullet to each of the grains of sand touching it until there isn't enough energy to move grains of sand anymore. You could get the same result using a bag of anything that was ground down to the same size as sand particles.

The easiest way to think of it is that each grain of said slows the bullet down a little bit, because the density of the sand is so high the bullet is being slowed down dramatically because it contacts hundreds, if not thousands of grains of sand. Sand is after all just millions of tiny rocks.

As an aside if yo were to take a piece of wood that was a similar volume to a sand bag it would stop a bullet just as well. The wood would be more badly damaged than the sand bag, but that's an issue of each substance's phsyical properties.

They had for example a type of olive oil which was inedible and was used for lamp oil exclusively.

Originally Posted by fusilier

Do you have any more information on this oil? I've used olive oil in a old style "grease lamp". All I had was a fairly high quality dipping oil, but it worked very well. The wick I used was a bit thick, it took about thirty seconds to get it started burning, but once started it burned very well.

Olives are naturally very bitter, often described as inedible. They must be soaked in a lye solution to leach out and chemically break down the bitter substances. They are then soaked in salt brine to remove the lye.

I suppose that some olive oils may also be extremely bitter, depending on when the olive was picked.

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by Straybow

Olives are naturally very bitter, often described as inedible. They must be soaked in a lye solution to leach out and chemically break down the bitter substances. They are then soaked in salt brine to remove the lye.

I suppose that some olive oils may also be extremely bitter, depending on when the olive was picked.

I'm really more interested in what the specific kind of olive oil was that was used for lamps. Because, I've used olive oil for lamps! :-)

Also, I think traditionally, "oil-cured" olives were more common than the brine cured variety. The olives are packed in olive oil and salt. Where I live they are typically referred to as "sicilian olives", but that's kind of misnomer. I like them, but they can be too salty at times.

Another use for olive oil is as a leather restorer (I have a friend who swears by it), and French and Italians seem to have used it to oil guns even in the 20th century (another friend who claims that he has disassembled old military rifles and they smell of olive oil). About the only thing I haven't heard of olive oil being used for is engine lubricant . . . but it wouldn't surprise me! :-)

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

I have a friend who converted a diesel truck to run on used vegetable oil. Not exclusively olive oil, but he has used that, as well as corn, canola and soybean oil.

The truck works juts fine, but it smells like french fries.

Out of wine comes truth, out of truth the vision clears, and with vision soon appears a grand design. From the grand design we can understand the world. And when you understand the world, you need a lot more wine.

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by fusilier

I'm really more interested in what the specific kind of olive oil was that was used for lamps. Because, I've used olive oil for lamps! :-)

Also, I think traditionally, "oil-cured" olives were more common than the brine cured variety. The olives are packed in olive oil and salt. Where I live they are typically referred to as "sicilian olives", but that's kind of misnomer. I like them, but they can be too salty at times.

Another use for olive oil is as a leather restorer (I have a friend who swears by it), and French and Italians seem to have used it to oil guns even in the 20th century (another friend who claims that he has disassembled old military rifles and they smell of olive oil). About the only thing I haven't heard of olive oil being used for is engine lubricant . . . but it wouldn't surprise me! :-)

There is a grade of olive oil used for lamps called 'lampante', but I'm not sure if it's the same as the older stuff (from a specific species of olive tree bred for lamp oil)

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by Thiel

There's been experiments with it, but organic oils breaks down too fast to be of much use.

I've heard very good things about castor oil. It was the oil of choice during WW1. Even when it breaks down, it goes through several stages some of which are decent lubricants in their own right. The problem is that it forms gums. It's not an issue when the engine has to be rebuilt on a regular basis (like WW1 aircraft engines).

After doing some more research, lampante seems to be a catch all term. It basically refers to a substandard oil that doesn't taste well. It can sometimes be refined and mixed with a virgin oil to be made acceptable for consumption. One source notes that it's made from the olives that have fallen to the ground, and other "low quality" olives. So it's basically "bad" olive oil. I suspect that this may have been historical lamp oil as well -- no point in wasting good olive oil in lamps, if non-palatable oil is available.

If they did breed a specific kind of olive for lamp oil, it's probably long gone by now. :-(

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

This is pure curiosity and just intended to see if anyone knows any historic sources: How was the perception of PTSD and other stress related psychological illnesses in soldiers and warriors in premodern time? With a rather aimless google search, the Napoleonic Wars are often referenced as the turning point in warfare, when the stress on soldiers changed in character from short violent clashes to drawn out "high intensity" campaigns.

And to very carefully get a bit more contempory, does there seem to be a tendency for symptoms turning significantly worse once "the war is over", or does being around people who know the stress themselves not do much to keep people more stable?
Because my uneducated guess would be that being part of a continous warrior-subculture might help to retain a sense of "normality" by being in an environment in which the experiences are part of everyones life. Even though they are hundreds of miles away from harm, drone controllers seem to suffer extreme stress from being in the field and providing surveilance data to troops under fire for 8 hours and day, and then going back home helping the kids with the homework and mowing the lawn. Lack of downtime with other soldiers to digest the experiences would probably be a major factor in that.

“Hither came Conan the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet.”

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

I don't know much from a medical perspective, but have you ever read the play "Ajax" or Philoctetes, both by Sophocles?

Both plays deal with the physical, emotional, and psychological damage that war can inflict on the warrior. "Ajax" is basically about a descent of a once mighty warrior into madness and suicide after he returns home from war. "Philoctetes" deals with the trauma associated with wounds that don't heal, and the feelings of isolation surrounding a warrior who can't fight.

This is the sort of thing that we would certainly interpret as PTSD in the modern day.

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by Essence_of_War

I don't know much from a medical perspective, but have you ever read the play "Ajax" or Philoctetes, both by Sophocles?

Both plays deal with the physical, emotional, and psychological damage that war can inflict on the warrior. "Ajax" is basically about a descent of a once mighty warrior into madness and suicide after he returns home from war. "Philoctetes" deals with the trauma associated with wounds that don't heal, and the feelings of isolation surrounding a warrior who can't fight.

This is the sort of thing that we would certainly interpret as PTSD in the modern day.

Minor quibble Ajax was still still at Troy and his madness was specifically caused by Athena since he was going to attack Odysseus who may (depending on version of the story) cheated him out of Achilles armor, as well as consistently making him into a fool in front of the other soldiers, and generally being the giant **** that Odysseus is.

Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

Originally Posted by Yora

This is pure curiosity and just intended to see if anyone knows any historic sources: How was the perception of PTSD and other stress related psychological illnesses in soldiers and warriors in premodern time?

Prior to Vietnam where the term PTSD was first coined, it was known as shell shock (particularly during WWI) or Combat Stress Reaction, which may help guide your research.