Hello all. My name is Matthew Wyman, and I am a new member to this website. I am a father and most certainly an amateur player, but have a passion for classical music and have been carving out time whenever possible to continue to improve my skills.

While I've been playing piano a long time, I've only over the last week begun to record myself using my computer. Until this past year I've always played on acoustic pianos, but now (for various reasons) I am playing on a Kawai CN23 digital piano. It sounds pretty good live, but I haven't perfected (to say the least) capturing the exact sound through my computer's USB port.

Please find attached my samples for your consideration. I have a handful of others, and am working on expanding my collection as well as improving on the current ones. I look forward to your constructive feedback.

I listened to some of your Chopin Prelude and about the first page or so of your Beethoven. First of all, the sound of your piano is okay, but it's a bit on the tinny-side. Maybe you can improve it with some kind of techno-tweaking or something like that...? Especially the sound just does not work with the Beethoven, I'm sorry to say. There needs more meat and potatoes for this piece, more depth, fullness, etc. Also, I don't have time to thoroughly go over everything, but your rhythm on the first few bars sound a little iffy to me. It starts out fine, but then around the third bar it sounds uneven. But then it gets better after that. Except I think your rhythm is off on bars 43 thru 49, the RH eighth note trills don't fit with the LH 16th notes. Sorry, but I don't have time to listen beyond that.

Anyway, it sounds like you definitely know your way around the piano. Hopefully, more members will listen and offer some comments and critiques/suggestions. We need some time to evaluate your recordings. I'll try to do more of it in the next day or so too.

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

Hi Matthew, welcome to PS. Be warned: the better known a work submitted, the greater the criticism that usually follows. I listened only to all of the Beethoven. This is definitely music that you feel and participate with! I like the tempo overall. However, I'm afraid that your technique isn't quite up to the work, in that pretty much through out, you have subtle blemishes like missed/weak notes or slight disruption of the rhythm (mostly in the LH) or faults in synchronization between the hands. This movement is a moto perpetuo and should not really have any fluctuation of tempo to speak of. Though the music has composed pauses, the tempo underlying it all doesn't stop. Sometimes you struggled to keep the tempo, for example during bars 24, 28 and the hemiola sections (the first of which is at bar 43-47). This is quintissential middle-period Beethoven and it needs to growl, and yell and whisper and everything inbetween. IMO you should do alot of very careful work with metronome beginning with a very moderated speed. Good luck and keep at it!

Best wishes,Eddy

Edit: I just had a listen to your Chopin Nocturne and I quite enjoyed it. It was very musical and you provided proper imbalance of the hands (melody louder, etc.). Though it doesn't soar and is a bit careful, I think that this is still a very credible performance and would vote for it to go up (but it's up to the Admins). Further, given that you're playing a digital piano, I think the sound is sufficiently good too.

Edit: Clarified Chopin [Nocturne]

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

Last edited by musical-md on Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.

These are very nice performances, especially the Chopin pieces, and the digital piano sound is not bad at all. Since you say your piano sounds "pretty good live", might it be worth trying to record it live, instead of plugging the piano directly into the computer? It might improve the sound quality of the recording, if perhaps at the expense of introducing a bit more hiss and background noise. But it's quite adequate as it is.

I will comment only on the Beethoven, which is quite creditable on the whole.

The problem with bars 43 to 46 seems to stem from the fact that your right hand is accenting the Es too much, this is the wrong note of each pair to emphasize, given where the left hand's printed accents are (at least in my edition - Schirmer: Bülow/Lebert). These bars should flow in exactly the same way as 8 bars later, which you handle well.

What you are doing in bars 23/24/27/28 does not seem to me to be the result of "struggllng", as Eddy says, but of deliberate rubato, which is nonetheless out of place in the moto perpetuo context.

Same applies near the end, not only when the identical pair of descending chromatic scales come again, but also the following extended chromatic scale. No dramatic pauses wanted here. Also, you play the bar after this chromatic scale (the one with the octave As in it) as a 4/8 bar by inserting an extra rest.

I have poco stringendo sin al fine printed in the next bar, but contradicting this you seem to be winding down the tempo in the last 8 bars or so.

On the technical side, the file name for this piece should have a "2" where you have "17".

Am I alone in noticing that the Raindrop Prelude is actually a Nocturne?

The playing to me seems good enough and I am not bothered by the things Eddy mentions. What bothers me most is the instrument, which is quite definitively a digital piano: I can hear some unnatural noises (such as the volume increases after the note is struck and so on) and reverbation is non-existent.

_________________Richard Willmer"Please do not shoot the pianistHe is doing his best."Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville

Wow - I can't believe I've only just now discovered this site! It's truly a treasure trove, and I am very appreciative of substantive and helpful responses. I look forward to returning the favor (so to speak) with my own contributions in the future.

Thank you for the advice about recording techniques... this is something I've been struggling with and I am eager to try some of the suggested tips. I use Nero Wave Editor to try to "normalize" the volume and remove static, but sometimes I think I'm using the wrong settings because the more I mess with it the more artificial it sounds to me. I'm already [personally] disappointed not to be playing on a nice acoustic, so I badly would like to achieve as passable a piano sound as possible.

Rainer, I will give that a try - recording with a microphone instead of using the "Headphones Out" jack. I'll start shopping around for one, and as long as I can do it with my 8 and 10 year old boys out of the house (!!) I do wonder if it wouldn't have a better result.

Richard, I actually posted one Nocturne and one Prelude. I wonder if the file you downloaded got crossed?

Regarding the Beethoven Sonata movement, I actually do still have this on my "Work In Progress" list. I wanted to provide something very different from the Chopin for review. I hope this does not breach any etiquette - the feedback is very valuable to me!

After reading the feedback so far on the Beethoven, I'm encouraged to continue to clean up my fingerwork with a bit more deliberate practice. And after reviewing the score a bit closer, I will be making adjustments to 43-46 accents and timing. I especially enjoyed the comments by several of you concerning the "feel" and drive/precision required for Beethoven. For me it's important to have the proper mood in the back of my mind as I'm playing.

Sincerely,

Matthew Wyman

_________________Matthew WymanAnd today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess

My complete lack of knowledge of the fancy names conjured by others than the composers, combined with my indifference to nearly all of Chopin's work, means that for all my life I had been under the impression the so-called "Raindrop" was Prelude No. 6 in b. Why, then, you may ask, did I listen? The answer is simple enough: I play but two of the preludes and one of them is the one in b, which I enjoy thoroughly, and I thought I might review it.

By the way, my edition of the Preludes (Joseffy - Schirmer's, 1943) has no names anywhere on the score.

My apologies, then!

As for recording... I have found out the same as you: the more one messes with the recording the more artificial it becomes. One removes hiss and one finds oneself with fluttering notes, one removes a clock ticking and one finds a note vanishing! In the end I limit myself to remove noise with the scissors where possible and little else.

I have a daughter and I record with her in the room. Most of the time she sits quietly listening. Admittedly she is apt to cry, "Banana!" before the last note fades away, but then... It is better not to have bananas lying around when recording!

_________________Richard Willmer"Please do not shoot the pianistHe is doing his best."Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville

I have a daughter and I record with her in the room. Most of the time she sits quietly listening. Admittedly she is apt to cry, "Banana!" before the last note fades away, but then... It is better not to have bananas lying around when recording!

Some feedback on the Chopin nocturne. I can hear that you love the music and are earnestly trying to do the right thing. There are nice dynamics and rubati throughout, and artistically it's a valid performance. But there's too many technical issues for it to go onto the site as yet. Such an extremely well-known, much-recorded, and relatively easy piece should at least be note perfect. There are a number of misreadings in the LH chords for example. A persistent error is not remembering that accidentals remain valid for the duration of the bar. So in bar 2, in the 3rd triplet in the LH, you should still play E natural, not E flat (it sounds real strange). This same mistake and similar ones happen on other occasions. In bar 8, you seem to omit the last two chords in the LH (this could be editorial though, I refer to the Paderewski edition). A good deal of your LH chords are quite uneven, you need to work on that. Lastly, in some of the fiorituri, your RH does not quite play as written, either with the notes or the rhythm. I would recommend listening back, as well as listen to a professional recording, with score in hand and ask yourself if you have the notes right (which would be more useful than someone spelling everything out).

HTH. It's not at all a bad performance, and the digital sound is passable (though I can't honestly say I like it). You just need to work on it a bit more. Don't quit your day job just yet And last not least, welcome to PS.

Thanks for the notes - gives me some tangible things to correct. If you have time, I'd be interested to hear your take on the Chopin Prelude I submitted as well. I'm on a bit of a Prelude kick lately, and am recording a good number of them now. Will post a few others soon...

_________________Matthew WymanAnd today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess

I'm not sure Matthew. Having wallowed a bit too much in the Raindrop as a youth, pounding out these chords in the middle as if there were no tomorrow, I'm now kinda allergic to it. IMO there isn't so much that can go wrong there technically if you read properly. To make a convincing story of this overplayed prelude is a different can of beer of course.

I certainly respect that you do not wish to review. Incidentally, I think the middle cords are the least interesting aspect of this prelude. To me the musical - and IMO technical - challenges here are finding the correct LH/RH balance, making the repeating notes throughout interesting and not monotonous, and of course phrasing and control.

As a side note, and sorry in advance for my soapbox here, I've always been a bit annoyed with the characterization of "overplayed". Perhaps well-intended, to me it communicates a bit of narcissism and essentially nothing else. And talk about an overused expression (irony intended)!! I can't help but roll my eyes every time I read a review or hear a commentator address something as "overplayed". This is stating the obvious, IMHO. Just a pet peeve of mine.

I too admit to being annoyed that so many new learners play the same old things, and at the general overconfidence expressed by the younger ones especially. And I also shy away from many pieces for this very reason, however I would never imply that it is beneath me.

In my opinion, the "Raindrop" prelude is rarely played well. In this musical sense, I'd say it's greatly underplayed in the world of amateurs. For me, it's one of the many pieces that may not be technically advanced but is musically under-appreciated. Not that my rendition fits the bill - trust me, I'm hard on myself and rarely satisfied with my "living room" performances. But I do strive to incrementally improve all of my repertoire to a credible level, mostly out of love for the music.

All that said, I'll record some of the lesser-played pieces I have that may be more palatable for you. I've been working hard on Chopin's Prelude 12 "presto" lately (hopefully you didn't play that one as a child also!), as well as 10, 13, 17, 18, and 21 (my favorite). I won't even bother posting Nos 4 or 20, which is a bit of a shame because I feel these are also rarely played musically by amateurs.

Regards.

_________________Matthew WymanAnd today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess

As a side note, and sorry in advance for my soapbox here, I've always been a bit annoyed with the characterization of "overplayed". Perhaps well-intended, to me it communicates a bit of narcissism and essentially nothing else. And talk about an overused expression (irony intended)!! I can't help but roll my eyes every time I read a review or hear a commentator address something as "overplayed". This is stating the obvious, IMHO. Just a pet peeve of mine.

I see. Everybody has their pet peeve... mine is being called narcissistic. But not to worry, I've heard worse.

The numbers then. We have currently ten recordings of this piece on the site. All are good, I believe, and a couple may be very good. So much for this piece seldom being played well by amateurs. We must have heard, and declined, at least a dozen more over the years. It' just one of these pieces, along with preludes 4, 6, 20, the first part of the Mondschein, and Bach 's first prelude, that everybody seems to submit for their first audition. Hence my perception of overplayed, for what it's worth.

I was just being honest about how I felt about your post. No big deal my friend. But I did feel it was narcissistic. That doesn't mean I think you're a narcicist, just a comment about how I perceived your comments as dismissive and presumptive (concluding my version is so unlikely to be worthy that it's not even worth listening to). As an Admin of this site, you saying something is "overplayed" as a reason not to even give it a listen is a bit offensive. I didn't see that criteria in the instructions. I apologize if I misunderstood.

Listening to music is time consuming, and you certainly don't have to waste your time on my submission. You've got too many recordings of 'Raindrop' - got it. The value of this site to me, which I feel is considerable, is the feedback - NOT the posting. I'm not trying to demean any of the wonderful recordings posted here, which is a great incentive for members to keep working at their pieces. I get it and it's cool.

So now I've made an enemy out of 1/3 of the admins of this site - great, I'm going to be ripped to shreds now!!

_________________Matthew WymanAnd today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess

Although Richard had mistaken the "Raindrop" Prelude for a nocturne, it gave me pause for a thought. The Prelude No. 15 is the longest of the preludes. It's in A-B-A form, and A and A1 are very lyrical and tranquil. And although Part B has some bombast (the thunderstorm), there are some nocturnes that likewise have a dramatic change in the middle part. I have always thought of it as a depiction of a rainy day, but it could as easily be a rainy night. So... had Chopin slapped a nocturne title on this piece, he would have easily gotten away with it!

David

_________________"Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities." David April

Although Richard had mistaken the "Raindrop" Prelude for a nocturne, it gave me pause for a thought. ... I have always thought of it as a depiction of a rainy day, but it could as easily be a rainy night.

Well, the story goes (can't remember where I read it) that it was a rainy winter night, when Chopin was staying in Mallorca at the house of a friend (George Sand), and stayed behind when his host and other guests went out to paint the (somewhat distant) town red, and a veritable deluge interrupted their return. They did eventually make it home, soaked to their skins, their taxi having broken down, to find Chopin at the piano, playing (this piece, composed that evening) as if in a trance, convinced his friends had been killed by this freak natural disaster. But it's probably just hype; apparently most of the piece had already been composed before he even arrived in Mallorca,

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So... had Chopin slapped a nocturne title on this piece, he would have easily gotten away with it!

Except for the small matter that it doesn't have the usual distinguishing features of a nocturne. The dreamy tune is there, right enough, but one generally expects a barcarolle-like accompaniment in 6/8 or some other triplety rhythm.

Welcome to PS! I agree with all that has been said about the music, so I won't repeat it here. Don't sweat not having an acoustic piano. Long before I had an acoustic piano of my own, I made many recordings using a Roland A-90EX keyboard when I was in school. I plugged the analog output jacks into a tape deck, then later a CD recorder. It gives very good results. You should get a better sound than what you're getting now. A couple of hints:

1. DON'T plug the recorder in the "headphone jack." The output/input impedences are different - like on the order of 32 ohms vs 50,000 ohms. It's a mismatch. The voltage levels are different too. That's why your sound is boomy, noisy, etc. You're also getting noise and interference from the headphone amp. Use the TRS (balanced) 1/4" analog output jacks and plug that into the analog inputs on your recorder.

2. DON'T record the keyboard with mics unless you have excellent reproduction speakers. Most of us don't. You'll pick up noise from room, longer audio chain, poorer living room acoustics, more expensive, limited frequency response, etc.

3. Certain Romantic music, like Chopin Nocturnes, Tempest Sonata are not keyboard friendly. The action is not conducive for it. Once you invest in an acoustic piano, you'll never go back. There are many piano deals out there.

Good Luck!

_________________"Nobility of spirit has more to do with simplicity than ostentation, wisdom rather than wealth, commitment rather than ambition." ~Riccardo Muti

Last edited by 88man on Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

I was just being honest about how I felt about your post. No big deal my friend. But I did feel it was narcissistic. That doesn't mean I think you're a narcicist, just a comment about how I perceived your comments as dismissive and presumptive

As one who has gotten his hackles up in the past (and hopefully ruffled some fur in turn ), I just can't resist responding when there's an amusing digression.

Since the thread has now unexpectedly shifted to the topic of pet peeves, let me say what two of mine are: people who don't read carefully and/or present illogical arguments that are not based on at least some evidence. Before you direct your narcissism radar at others, you may want to ask yourself the following questions: (1) Is there any way a reasonable person could conclude that using the word "overplayed" is inherently associated with a narcissistic personality or even a narcissistic remark? (2) As a corollary to (1), is it reasonable to conclude that an admin is now an enemy simply because he may have said something slightly sarcastic; (3) Have I bothered to listen to myself critically before posting these recordings?

So anyway, enough sermonizing from me and back to the original topic of your playing. It isn't that there aren't some good things here. Both the Nocturne and Prelude are sensitively phrased in some places, if somewhat tentative and forced in others. However, besides that there are a number of dropped notes (in the prelude more so), unseemly tempo hesitations, pedal blurs, and passages that sound jerky, hesitant, and inadequately worked out. This is especially evident to me in the Nocturne filigree, which needs to shimmer; instead, you often slow down and completely bring the tempo to a halt, presumably to make things easier for yourself. These do sound within your reach if you go back to basics and look at them more self-reflectively.

However, the Beethoven, I'm sorry to say, is a complete mess. I just don't think there is a nicer way to put this. We're all, or mostly, amateurs here and I don't think anyone would expect anything close to perfection, particularly on a difficult movement like this. But when there are gross unevennesses, tempo strugglings, and awkward pedal usage in nearly every measure, it's a different matter. Frankly, this piece just sounds way beyond your current technical ability. It makes me shudder to hear that you're planning on playing the Chopin 12th prelude, which though shorter, is IMO 20 times more physically difficult than this.

Rest assured, this is not a gratuitous ripping of your playing to shreds, only an unequivocal assessment.

Right you are. The accompaniment would disqualify the "Raindrop" as a nocturne. And thanks for reminding me of the story of Chopin composing it at Majorca. I read that tale years ago, probably in Huneker's book on Chopin, but had forgotten it.

David

_________________"Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities." David April

Well, the story goes (can't remember where I read it) that it was a rainy winter night, when Chopin was staying in Mallorca at the house of a friend (George Sand), and stayed behind when his host and other guests went out to paint the (somewhat distant) town red, and a veritable deluge interrupted their return. They did eventually make it home, soaked to their skins, their taxi having broken down, to find Chopin at the piano, playing (this piece, composed that evening) as if in a trance, convinced his friends had been killed by this freak natural disaster

Rainer - nice story thank you for sharing the background on this!

_________________Matthew WymanAnd today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess

1. DON'T plug the recorder in the "headphone jack." The output/input impedences are different - like on the order of 32 ohms vs 50,000 ohms. It's a mismatch. That's why your sound is boomy, noisy, etc. You're also getting noise and interference from the headphone amp. Use the TRS (balanced) 1/4" analog output jacks and plug that into the analog inputs on your recorder.

88man - THANK YOU so much for the technology tips. I think I made a mistake when purchasing my Kawai CN23. It actually doesn't have line in/out jacks, only two headphone jacks. Reading on the Kawai site the very next model "up" from mine has those Jacks! I wonder if I can trade up with the dealer? (Wishful thinking probably.)

Given this constraint, what would you recommend is the next best thing?

_________________Matthew WymanAnd today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess

Well hello Joseph, nice to meet you! I've actually listened to a lot of your recordings on this site and have a great respect for your work, sincerely. I love that you recorded all 24 Chopin Preludes as well, and have listened to them all. This really sux that my first communication with you has to be so testy.

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As one who has gotten his hackles up in the past (and hopefully ruffled some fur in turn ), I just can't resist responding when there's an amusing digression.

Yes, fair enough I probably did overreact. I've read a lot of postings here lately, and I think for some reason some of the responses by this particular admin (whom I also very much respect and have listened to a lot of his music here) have rubbed me the wrong way.

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However, besides that there are a number of dropped notes (in the prelude more so), unseemly tempo hesitations, pedal blurs, and passages that sound jerky, hesitant, and inadequately worked out.

Did you by any chance notate where these dropped notes in the prelude are? With my headphones, anyway, I can only hear one. Also, I would be interested in more information on the pedal blurs you refer to (such as where you feel the pedal was inappropriately used).

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instead, you often slow down and completely bring the tempo to a halt, presumably to make things easier for yourself.

It makes me shudder to hear that you're planning on playing the Chopin 12th prelude, which though shorter, is IMO 20 times more physically difficult than this.

Ouch. Why did you use this particular language? Constructive criticism doesn't require this. I know I'm not as great a player as you, but truthfully this statement was very demotivating for me coming from someone such as yourself. I've been working for many months methodically and slowly building up my No 12, and in particular working on my form to keep my fingers relaxed and flexible, yet strong, so they won't tire by the end of the song. I've attached my last recording of a series where I've been slowly increasing tempo. I may as well take all my medicine at once here today!

_________________Matthew WymanAnd today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess

Huh? Please tell me all of these places where I "often" slow down and come to a halt to make things easier? Perhaps you can explain why my tempo changes are inappropriate in these pieces, but not in your Prelude No 12 http://server3.pianosociety.com/protect ... renouf.mp3?

@ Joe: Based on the principle of analogy, I think he's got a logical argument. Oh boy.

@ Matthew: Now that is not fair using our own music against us; please don't do this with me.

Edit: Oops. I meant Matthew not Mark

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

Last edited by musical-md on Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Did you by any chance notate where these dropped notes in the prelude are? With my headphones, anyway, I can only hear one. Also, I would be interested in more information on the pedal blurs you refer to (such as where you feel the pedal was inappropriately used).

Since you seem to want it, here is a more specific critique on your prelude:

1. Right in the opening measure, the third of F and D-flat doesn't sound in the left hand (this is what I am using "dropped" to mean, not "missed" or wrong, but weak or nonexistent). Then there is noticeable asynchronicity going into the second measure. The repeating A accompaniment seems weak in general. Then for the brief filigree run in measure 5 I don't hear the initial note after the first repeated note. For the reprise in measure 6, there is some rather noticeable and awkward hand asynchronicity.

2. In the entrance of theme B (measure 9), there is an unpleasant pedal blur in the lefthand against the melodic subject.

3. Measure 14, the G-flat doesn't sound, particularly unfortunate since this is the climax of the phrase. Also the lefthand around this point sound a bit weak and uneven. The three note ornament in 15 is too slow in relation to your overall tempo so it sounds a bit clumsy to my ears.

4. IMO you overemphasize the second reprise to the main theme, banging that E-flat a bit.

5. Is it just me or is there an edit cut in the repeated notes right before the transition to the C-sharp minor section? One of the notes sounds as though it fades out for a split second.

6. In the middle section, it gets suddenly quite a bit slower in relation to the tempo you started out with, which isn't called for IMO. I also find it rhythmically monotonous and think the accompaniment is too loud with not enough legato and singing of the melody in the lefthand

7. It gets even more lugubriously slow when the righthand melody comes back and around 61-62 (I counted so the measure number might not be accurate, since my score doesn't have numbers), I am hearing weak notes in the bass (though your melody is better here).

8. The end suffers from rhythmic monotony again and I'm not sure you're hearing the climaxes of all these delicious phrases. The very last measure seems rather abrupt -- not enough ritenuto for a sense of release and finality.

As a general comment, I find the rhythm rather jerky and inconsistent in the outer sections and overly careful and not varied enough in the middle section. Given the tempo changes between sections, too, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to review your playing with a metronome even in this case.

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Huh? Please tell me all of these places where I "often" slow down and come to a halt to make things easier?

Sure, I'd be glad to. Right before the chromatic filigree in measure 16 for one, There are incidentally also many notes in this passage itself that are simply not there (don't sound). Then you also slow down grotesquely in measure 23 (the variation on 16). There's also a lot of slowing down on the last page for the coda, which you accentuate by waiting a very long time in between the low E and the accompaniment. Of course I can't prove that you're doing this to make it easier for yourself. Just how it sounds to me when one breaks the fluidity of the line to hit a low note.

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Ouch. Why did you use this particular language? Constructive criticism doesn't require this. I know I'm not as great a player as you, but truthfully this statement was very demotivating for me coming from someone such as yourself. I've been working for many months methodically and slowly building up my No 12, and in particular working on my form to keep my fingers relaxed and flexible, yet strong, so they won't tire by the end of the song. I've attached my last recording of a series where I've been slowly increasing tempo. I may as well take all my medicine at once here today!

I don't see how this is not constructive. I think it's more constructive to be honest and tell someone that the piece sounds too difficult for them (admittedly only my opinion) than for them to continue to struggle at it and waste their time. Normally, I would just let someone labor under a delusion and not comment on a performance where I didn't have more positive to say, but your rather passive-aggressive responses to earlier commenters annoyed me, so why not stir up a little trouble? This passive-aggressiveness, I believe, is demonstrated by your even bringing up my performance of Prelude 12, since this is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. But please feel free to tear my performance of this or anything else apart. I really couldn't care less. Passive-aggressiveness is another of my pet peeves btw, since it is often accompanied by delusional logic. But then, I'm sure you'd deny that you were being passive-aggressive anyway (much as Chris denies being narcissistic ), so I guess it's my own flawed perception and probably a moot point.

Regarding your performance, upon hearing it, I stand by my statement. IMHO this sounds to me as though it will never be ready given your present technical level. Besides being way under tempo at this point, the notes just simply aren't clear in practically every measure -- they sound smudged. This is a Presto, not an Andante, and if you're struggling to play the notes clearly at this tempo, I just don't see how you're going to be able to bring it up much more. My advice would be to start with something easier that you can control better, like a Clementi sonatina.

It is never possible to draw a deduction (in your words "logical argument") directly from an analogy until an argument is pursued further by other means. An analogy is rather an example of inductive reasoning, simply an observation (an opining, not a syllogism) that there is a relationship between two things (which may be true or false upon further observation). It may of course be the starting point on which one bases a gathering of actual evidence for a deduction. Anyway, there really isn't such a necessary relationship here since these are two entirely different pieces (nocturne and prelude) with entirely different characters. That is, what might be inappropriate slowing in one piece might be quite appropriate in another.

On that note, I never said that slowing down or speeding up was never kosher. Like most things in life, it's a matter of degree. A little rushing and slowing here and there (which I would fully agree with as criticism of my playing of that prelude btw) is not the same thing as almost grinding to a halt and sounding as though one doesn't know the music and is finding the notes (once again, just my opinion of what I heard). But the larger issue is why someone would even bring up my playing here. I never said anything about it or compared it to anyone's. It's a completely irrelevant issue on this thread.

Anyway, I'm by no means trying to start a fight, but as you know, I always enjoy a little controversial discussion

You are much better than I am, but I have tinkered with the Raindrop quite a bit. Here's where I noticed some missing or weak notes or other things that grabbed my attention:*My edition is the Schirmer collection of Chopin preludes, nocturnes, and waltzes.

Measure 1: You're missing an a-flat on the and of beat 4.Measure 14: The and of beat 1 (f in the treble, g-flat in the bass) is very weak.Measure 29: On beat 2 the bass is very hesitant/almost inaudible.Measures 43 and 59: Perhaps this is a taste judgement, but your ritards were a little too much for me.Measure 68: Do you play all four 8th note g-sharps in the bass during the first two beats? I thought I heard the third and fourth 8th notes but couldn't tell if you played the first two. Measures 73 and 74: The second 8th note in beat 1 is obscured by the bass. The rhythm is defined by the pulsing 8th notes and I don't think you should leave a single one unattended. Measure 80: Something is off in the first two beats. It sounds as if you forget the descending line of f to d-flat to a-flat and had to rush to catch up because you remembered it at the last second. You play d-flat almost inaudibly, then hesitate, then come crashing down on a-flat.Measures 80-81: Right at the bar line, my score is marked slentando. Consider working in a gradual slowing down instead of a sudden ritard on beat 3 of measure 81.Measure 81: The b-flat in the treble sounded off to me. It might be just a touch too loud. Or it could have been something else, like my cheap headphones or the nasty echo from your keyboard, in which case you played it fine.

I know the right hand runs are difficult, but your retard was a bit too much for me in those sections as well. Also, for the third run in measure 79, my edition is marked as having the pedal down for the entire run, which you didn't do. I think this is likely editorial difference, though. Would someone that feels confident in their edition check pedaling for the three runs, please?

Last, I'm noticing what I think are smudged thirds in the left hand where both notes in the third aren't quite played simultaneously. Or perhaps the thirds are fine, but it's the right and left hand combined that are just a teensy bit off. The first beat of measure 2, 6, etc sound smudged. This is something I still have trouble with, and you just have to be extra careful that you get a crisp and clear sound. I can recommend a few pieces that I think would help with clarity if you'd like.

I think you're off to a good start with the raindrop. You seem to be fairly secure in the technical aspects, as I think the few little slips that I heard are just that: rare slips and easily fixable. I think you need to work more on your rhythm and pacing, as I didn't like a lot of your retards and you seem to have a few other issues. Keep up the good work and I think you'll have a very presentable piece

Best regards,David

PS- I know boys will be boys, but I think that it's a good time to calm down a little when the college guy is reduced to rolling his eyes

Oh my dear Mr. Joseph. Thank you for your list, which I'll be sure to review tomorrow after a good night's sleep. And sense you offered, while evading my question altogether, I would be VERY interested in commenting on several of your works. Might I ask how does someone go about adding comments to already-posted pieces?

I have just listened back to your "interpretation" of Prelude 15, while we're on that subject and again since you asked.

Given your performance of this Prelude, I can actually understand why you have such a different stylistic opinion. Your approach is very different from mine to say the least.

I'll provide more detail when I post my critique of your version, which as I've said before is good overall and impressive as part of the complete set. But here are quick problems/opinions I'm typing as I listen: (1) Broading beginning section with only a few hints of a delicate touch anywhere (is this Bach or Chopin??), added "rolling embelishments" not in the score, LH much too heavy almost ignoring obvious phrasing points (2) the dramatic and unsettling irregular tempo changes within the middle section (you may want to check out that metronome as well), more "rolling embelishments", some odd hesitations, not carrying through dynamics to the end of the phrases (ff in 40 stays ff for the full three measures) (3) very disappointed in the chosen "phrasing" between bars 60 - 75 approx. My favorite recordings of this Prelude sing a tragic song after the "storm" of the middle section. I can't find any precedence in my audio collections or in my score for your erratic tempo and dynamic swings which don't seem to have much logic. (4) I felt no emotional connection to the last section after bar 76. It sounded like a literal re-hash of the opening melody, when I feel it should be MUCH more delicate and ethereal.

On to the ridiculous...I found all of your ramblings about me being "passive-aggressive" and having "delusional logic" quite funny. Is that what they teach you at "technical editor" school, or is this the great insight you pick up being such an accomplished, famous pianist?

What sophomoric twaddle. Please go learn something, anything, on these topics and then come back and we can talk. While you're doing your research, I'd recommend sneaking a peek at "Freudian Projection".

_________________Matthew WymanAnd today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess

I was just being honest about how I felt about your post. No big deal my friend. But I did feel it was narcissistic. That doesn't mean I think you're a narcicist, just a comment about how I perceived your comments as dismissive and presumptive (concluding my version is so unlikely to be worthy that it's not even worth listening to). As an Admin of this site, you saying something is "overplayed" as a reason not to even give it a listen is a bit offensive. I didn't see that criteria in the instructions. I apologize if I misunderstood.

I suppose I have no legal ground for not particularly desiring to listen to and evaluate the umpteenth submission of the raindrop and similar much-played pieces. As an admin, this is probably my job and duty even when I dislike a piece. I thought I'd get away with evaluating just one piece and rely on other members' feedback as I often do.

mwyman1 wrote:

Listening to music is time consuming, and you certainly don't have to waste your time on my submission. You've got too many recordings of 'Raindrop' - got it. The value of this site to me, which I feel is considerable, is the feedback - NOT the posting.

That much is true. The Audition Room is rather too centered towards submitting recordings for the site, and as such we sometimes give dismissive feedback, when something is not up to standard. We have more or less decided tointroduce another forum for work in progress, but not taken the steps yet. In such a forum anybody could fish forfeedback never mind what is being played and how. Mind you I'd certainly not feel obliged to listen to each and everything posted there. This would be in analogy with the audition room forum at Piano Street where anything goes and people either comment or they don't. Many things are silently ignored. There are no participating moderators there. Some submissions are top-notch and some are absolute crap. Once we have such a new forum, a rule for Audition Room would be that anything not up to standard would be relocated to the new forum without further ado. This little 'incident' proves again that we badly need such a construct.

mwyman1 wrote:

Yes, fair enough I probably did overreact. I've read a lot of postings here lately, and I think for some reason some of the responses by this particular admin (whom I also very much respect and have listened to a lot of his music here) have rubbed me the wrong way.

It rather sounds like you had some bone to pick with me even before you joined up. You certainly wasted no time there ! No problem though - we can take some bashing, and dish some out in return. It doesn't have to make us enemies, unless you want it so.

In light of the other members' feedback on your Raindrop and Beethoven, there does not seem much point now in me going over the same ground again. Nor would there be a point in you rightly or wrongly arguing that I should do so.

Although Richard had mistaken the "Raindrop" Prelude for a nocturne, it gave me pause for a thought. The Prelude No. 15 is the longest of the preludes. It's in A-B-A form, and A and A1 are very lyrical and tranquil. And although Part B has some bombast (the thunderstorm), there are some nocturnes that likewise have a dramatic change in the middle part. I have always thought of it as a depiction of a rainy day, but it could as easily be a rainy night. So... had Chopin slapped a nocturne title on this piece, he would have easily gotten away with it!

David

Even though I have listened (unwillingly) to the whole 24 together, I suppose my ears shut out after the 6th (or 7th or 5th prelude - I lose count) and I actually never even heard (consciuosly, that is) this prelude until last year, when a Russian student where I work gave a recital and this piece she played. And that is not all: she had come earlier to my house to look for scores (she had none with her) and I supplied her with the Chopin album of preludes and she was playing that prelude from that very edition.

I suppose I should be embarassed by all this but, it not being the fisrt time I do not know some of the things everyone takes for granted (I look years of conscious effort to manage to hear Rachmaninoff's famous Prelude!) I find it funny.

And yes, it starts just like as soupily as any of the soupier nocturnes, hence my mistake. I mean the prelude, not the performance.

_________________Richard Willmer"Please do not shoot the pianistHe is doing his best."Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville

Last edited by richard66 on Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Audition Room is rather too centered towards submitting recordings for the site, and as such we sometimes give dismissive feedback, when something is not up to standard. We have more or less decided to introduce another forum for work in progress, but not taken the steps yet. In such a forum anybody could fish for feedback never mind what is being played and how. (...) This would be in analogy with the audition room forum at Piano Street where anything goes and people either comment or they don't. (...) Once we have such a new forum, a rule for Audition Room would be that anything not up to standard would be relocated to the new forum without further ado. This little 'incident' proves again that we badly need such a construct.

Is this a good idea or will all this vetting simply mean no one will submit? Already submissions are low. Doing this will make them go down even more. What you need to do is to restrict access in a way some sites do, to avoid people registering and immediately submitting recordings. Maybe you would need to make posting recordings in the audition room only available to members of the main site, with a different "room" for people who submit first recordings with a view of becoming members. Why compete with Piano Street? What makes PS so different and interesting is that the best recordings are moved to a permanent archive, where the pianist is clearly identified while those on Piano street simply drift away and we have no way of knowing who hides behind such names as Crazycat99 or Moonfaser.

_________________Richard Willmer"Please do not shoot the pianistHe is doing his best."Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville

We are not trying to 'compete' with anybody. No other site has as vast a collection of classical piano music as we have! We're just hoping that by having another room, one that is less 'formal', we will in fact attract more people to join the forums.

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

We've discussed this and it is definitely a good idea. Our impression is that the high standards in Audition Room have scared people from submitting and even driven people away. A forum without any pre-requisites would invite more people to post and get constructive feedback without fearof the dreaded admins slapping their wrists. It just might have avoided an awkward situation like we seem to have in this case.

How so? You asked me to back up my claims and I did so. I guess only certain types of feedback are acceptable to you.

Quote:

I can actually understand why you have such a different stylistic opinion.

Who said anything about style? I merely pointed out more cut-and-dried things that were clearly wrong in an attempt to illustrate why it was unpresentable for the site.

Quote:

I would be VERY interested in commenting on several of your works.

Sure, I knew you would be. It was clear to me from your nonsensical, defensive reply to Chris regarding "overplayed" that you're the type of person who's more interested in exacting petty revenge than in looking at himself realistically and learning something. Why not start a Web site or blog? For the opening page, you could put up a big glowing picture of yourself and then a picture of me next to it with a big X through it and an evil moustache photoshopped in. Then you could talk about how much more musical the playing of these pieces is by you and your other favorite performers. Option 2 would of course be to continue your rant against my playing right here. You've only got 23 left

We've discussed this and it is definitely a good idea. Our impression is that the high standards in Audition Room have scared people from submitting and even driven people away. A forum without any pre-requisites would invite more people to post and get constructive feedback without fearof the dreaded admins slapping their wrists. It just might have avoided an awkward situation like we seem to have in this case.

We all want praise for our efforts, but, alas! no amount of praise in the world will make a recording better. That goes for all of us, including me.

_________________Richard Willmer"Please do not shoot the pianistHe is doing his best."Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville

Joe and Matthew,I can't make up my mind which one of you is throwing the biggest tantrum about nothing. Maybe you guys are made for each other I must admit I secretly enjoy seeing a good old shouting match... just as I like to watch a cheap and stupid B movie now and then... and it makes the forum sort of interesting in dire times.... but really, this is starting to get a little too personal now. Why not back down and admit you can't always get an argument to swing your way.

From techneut: The Audition Room is rather too centered towards submitting recordings for the site, and as such we sometimes give dismissive feedback, when something is not up to standard. We have more or less decided to introduce another forum for work in progress, but not taken the steps yet. In such a forum anybody could fish for feedback never mind what is being played and how.

This clarification helps a lot actually, and I really like that idea. For me, I knew I needed to refine my pieces and was looking for some feedback. (I'm very happy with the comprehensive feedback, by the way!) I really don't want you guys to become too much like the other site, however, which too often provides little true value to the musician IMO.

Quote:

Our impression is that the high standards in Audition Room have scared people from submitting and even driven people away. A forum without any pre-requisites would invite more people to post and get constructive feedback without fear of the dreaded admins slapping their wrists. It just might have avoided an awkward situation like we seem to have in this case.

Please don't give up on me yet - I'm still here! I've received a lot of positive feedback as well as specific things to work on, and am actually quite encouraged when I compare the feedback given to many other posters you've had. (I even had a few votes to post these early versions ) And who knows, I may actually improve with a little time and practice!

I have no complaints with the admins' feedback on pieces reviewed, which were all very helpful with the proper mix of specifics and encouragement. Wishful thinking perhaps, but I do wish there was a way to discourage the non-constructive, personally offensive postings. I certainly made a rookie mistake and played my part, but I can't help but wonder if this has something to do with your retention/membership dropoff you've recently experienced.

As a newbie here, it was very demoralizing to be attacked by one of your most prolific artists. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for tough love and understand never to underestimate the power of ones' delusions of their own skills (see American Idol). However according to the majority of feedback I received on this site, my work has potential and its problems are fixable. Knowing so little about me (or other more experienced folks who may be in my position), shouldn't I deserve the benefit of the doubt with regards to my ability to improve? Is it really the best policy to hastily decide (and point out to me) that I'm in way over my head?

Another angle. Have you ever performed a piece that you used to know well but haven't played in years, and had short notice to prepare? The piece is still somewhat in your fingers, so you may produce a 'passable' performance at least to the untrained ears. But a few notes may be missed here or there certainly, and hesitation can also be introduced as you are not fully prepared. However, with relatively little focused, dedicated practice you can improve very rapidly. A little metronome work in these situations does wonders! How do you know that's not the case for me with my Beethoven, or any other piece for example? I might surprise you, after all. Either way, I think in these situations it's poisonous and premature to disparage the new person - especially if you're a well-respected artist on the site.

So I know I can block this person's messages, but I wonder if there is something more the site (or admins) could do to educate and/or encourage its artists to avoid attacking newcomers?

Anyway, I hope I have not offended anyone and apologize for my part in this. I also hope that I will be given the opportunity to re-post these performances, as well as many others I'm [slowly] working on.

_________________Matthew WymanAnd today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess

Matthew, I don't understand how you feel personally attacked. You got some candid feedback, maybe not what you wanted to hear most, but that's life. Deal with it and turn it into your advantage. In any online community, there's bound to be one or two fierce creatures that will pound on you if you step in with an attitude. It's probably best to try and get to know people first before starting to vent your pet peeves and judge people. That some conversations became testy is entirely your own doing. Not that I want to take sides in the dispute - I try to, and usually can, see both sides of an argument. If someone says you're not up to the Beethoven piece, I'd assume there may be some truth in that and would work on it harder, rather than getting all wound up and indignant about it. Maybe you are up to it and just haven't practiced nearly enough. Dunno, I have not listened to it. Maybe I should, but then don't get hot under the collar if you get the same kind of feedback. As I like saying, if you can't stand the heat then do get out of the kitchen. Or, better still, get used to it.

Matthew, I don't understand how you feel personally attacked. You got some candid feedback, maybe not what you wanted to hear most, but that's life.... [and on and on and on]

Oh geez, I thought this was over. This is getting quite exhausting. If you want me out of here please just say so. You're the admin so I'm sure you'll get the last word ultimately...

The old reliable "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" argument. This is what's called a "straw man", at least as applied to my acceptance of the feedback. I suppose based on your experience, you think everyone who expresses dismay is just upset because they suck and can't take the truth. Convenient argument, and certainly very easy to win, especially from the bully pulpit.

Sigh. I'm not upset about any of the candid feedback. Not sure how many times I have to say that. It's the feedback I was looking for. Perhaps you should look back at my posts in context. I'm upset about the personal attacks by ONE of your artists who chose to jump in and attack me related to my posts to you. If you were so inclined, you could check out my initial responses to your artist's "feedback", his stated desire to "stir up a little trouble" with me, and the various and curious names/insults he threw. If you don't think this sort of thing has any correlation to your decreasing posts and users, then that's OK with me. Feel free to just ignore my complaint about the "personal attack" if you like - I promise I won't lose sleep over it. It's your site.

But I get it - you feel I asked for it and deserve it. Again, I'm VERY SORRY I ranted to you about the "overplayed" comment - boy was that a big mistake. Can we just erase my account and start over?

But PLEASE PLEASE can we end all of this and just move on? I give up.

_________________Matthew WymanAnd today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess

Man-oh-man, things did not go very well with your initial time up to bat, Matthew. Sure, it's not easy to swallow a bitter pill, but clearly you have a passion for playing classical piano, as we all do, and if you give it a chance, Piano Society can be a real great resource for learning about and improving your own piano playing. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten some comments that I felt were pretty irksome! and then I'd storm off and pout for awhile. But the advice, help, encouragement, knowledge, and friendship that I've received far outweighs the unpleasant stuff and so that keeps me plodding on. You claim to be wide open for constructive criticism so maybe you can submit different recordings when you have some ready. My main complaint about these first three recordings is the sound of your piano. I really don't like it at all. You will have to tinker around and get a better sound on your next submissions if you have hopes of them going up onto the main site.

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

Still testy, I see. Ah well, maybe you'll grow out of it. Sure let's move on. No point in beating a dead horse.

As for Joe, we've had some interesting times with him. But we get on alright now, he's quite ok when you get to know him better. And his feedback, while sometimes uncompromising, is usually spot-on. But to answer your question, in your profile you can define Friends and Foes, so you can ignore people you don't like (not the admins, unfortunately, they can't be ignored )

However, I'm afraid that your technique isn't quite up to the work, in that pretty much through out, you have subtle blemishes like missed/weak notes or slight disruption of the rhythm (mostly in the LH) or faults in synchronization between the hands. This movement is a moto perpetuo and should not really have any fluctuation of tempo to speak of. Though the music has composed pauses, the tempo underlying it all doesn't stop. Sometimes you struggled to keep the tempo, for example during bars 24, 28 and the hemiola sections (the first of which is at bar 43-47). This is quintissential middle-period Beethoven and it needs to growl, and yell and whisper and everything inbetween. IMO you should do alot of very careful work with metronome beginning with a very moderated speed. Good luck and keep at it!

I only have time to listen to the Beethoven just now, and Eddy has expressed very adequately what I feel about it. To what he advises at the end, I would add WITHOUT PEDAL during preparatory work. Someone once said to me "the pedal is to the pianist as the bottle is to an alcoholic" and the pedal is a wonderful way of disguising woes and problems. The rubati which you employ sound very odd and stylistically out of character. To be fair to you, there is a nice overall sound, but it is a bit same-ish throughout. I'm guessing a bit here, but I assume you aren't currently seeing a teacher - I think some of the faults mentioned above fall into the category of problems which would be noticed straightaway and not allowed to persist if you were. I think you can play the piece, but it needs work, especially on evenness. Good luck with it.

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