2013 Sub 3:20 and Beyond, Part 2

Just wanted to say Hi, as theres not much else happening for me. Twisted my ankle last night and was hoping it wasn't going to be too bad, this morning says otherwise. I'll see how it goes but with that and some good rain coming our way it might be a rest day for me. I'm nervous about it already.

PJ NYC will be great, I really hope you get in. Last year was going to be my one and only NYCM, don't know when I'll have another crack.

DW I had a friend run Richmond last year at the last min and she loved it. Really loved the course and people. Keep up the knee work.

OMR Mostly is close enough, you'll be sweet tomorrow. I'm going with 3:07 if no ones taken that yet.

KKR Welcome. Just backing up with JIM had to say. I'm doing my recovery runs 45 seconds and more slower then my LR pace and tempos, well at what ever Mr Pfitzinger tells me to do them at and then I try and go a wee bit quicker. PS you better tell us what shoes you run in before you anger our show monster NICK

Dwave: Thanks for posting the link. I think I would have remembered reading that, and I'm sorry that it somehow slipped by me earlier. I was curious to see how you paced the early miles, but I thoroughly enjoyed the entire RR.

KKrunner: Welcome. I fall into the Daniels camp Jim suggested, so faster-but-shorter tempos, which for me are around 6:30 pace right now. However, some are embedded into long runs - one fairly early, and a second one late in the run - so I find them very challenging. I'm also using a HR monitor, at least for right now, while I figure out how to do this thing called "marathon training." It has definitely helped me figure some things out, but it means my paces vary quite a bit. Recovery runs are typically 8:40-9:00ish, depending on just how tired I am. Like you, I used Higdon Intermediate II (with some added miles here and there) for my first full, and was pleased with the results. Confession: I probably run most of my easy runs too fast.

Office pool: OK, since I obviously can't stop this nonsense, I'll have to put myself down for 3:27. I hope I don't win the pool, but like the half I just ran, I'm going to try to not think too much about a goal time (even though I'm already obsessing about it). And I assume if we're continuing this for me, then we'll be doing this for everyone else? PJs 50-miler...hmm...

KKrunner, welcome to the land of misfits. I remember some of your posts from last year while trolling the 3:30 thread. You need to give the group some background info on yourself, especially the brand of shoes for NickS. We are all over the board as far as race times, but this is a great place to hang out when you can. I tend to disappear for long periods of time depending on what's going on with my life at the moment, but try to keep up with the thread even if I'm not posting. You won't find a more supportive group of people.

DarkWave, was that your blog? That was a great read! You must have been an English major, that was very well written, and very entertaining. Even with the winds, that was an awesome time!!!

KK, welcome! I just showed up here last week and this crew has been quite welcoming. My only marathon time is horrible, 4:51, but my most recent HM times were 1:44:44 and 1:43:52, so I'm hopeful my fall marathon will be quite an improvement.

GhettoPops, I gotta ask, what is a TV? (I contextually infer you don't mean Television).

Gpops: Haha, no problem with the pool. As for the 6% incline workouts, I break it up into smaller chunks. When I first started doing it, I think it was .25M at a time, followed by some flat running to recover. I'm now up to .4M at a time, but with about 9 repeats. Yeah, be careful with that tibia!

omar - Bet you never guessed you'd be pool running...As for 3:27....yeah right.

I can't remember if I asked you if you could let us in on your training secrets. By which I mean I was hoping all would be revealed in the RR. A general rundown at least? I know you basically upped the miles hugely first, and then followed some plan. But which one? And what were the main modifications (20% TM inclines, etc...). Info on paces (what's LT for you?) would be great.

DW - Man, thanks for reposting that RR link. Really great stuff (the writing and the race). Funny how a mantra for a stubborn person can be IamSTUBorn. Like it. I appreciated the hints about your training regime, especially "this is just another long run". I'm more sure than ever that the problem with my own recent FM attempt was both a lack of speedwork, and long run work. I ran a bunch of middling stuff and lacked confidence as a result (and basic fitness, obviously).

KK - hiya! Congrats on that 3:21, btw. Don't know if I said so yet in 3:30. Are you healthy?

pepper - good luck with NYV

itstonz - if you're not sure about the ankle, I wouldn't run on it. I waited a day after the pain stopped recently, and immediately re-sprained it. Assume you're doing strength exercises?

nickshawn - I love outrunning thunderstorms, as long as they don't catch me.

Pluto - On the TV mystery: Not to get all sherlock about it, but methinks Ghetto mistook his pointer finger on his left hand for the pointer on his right after a grueling session on the dreadmill.

I've run 6 out of 7 days, but I'd been taking it easy on pace and distance, based on that heavy post-race feeling. Yesterday I was feeling good by the end, so for this morning, I decided on some tempo work. I modified Dad's advice and did 2x10 minutes @HMP, which worked out to 6:54. Dad suggested 3x10min, but I decided to ease into it and see how I react. It wasn't so bad. When should I bump that up to 3x10min?

Runbo - Hopefully this doesn't come off as too flip, but bump it up whenever you feel like it. You'll know.

KK - Welcome. For me, recovery tends to be about 8:30-8:45, which is about 30-45 seconds slower than GA. I'll sometimes move up to 9:00ish (especially on the TM). But I'm not pulling the crazy mileage that some of these folks are. Tempo depends on the workout. Generally 6:20-6:50.

OMR - 3:06:xx. And I've taken the opposite approach to hills ... grind 'em out at first and then go shorter and faster.

Me - Never gonna run New York. Well, maybe someday. But not someday soon.

10.5 easy Monday

7.6 easy yesterday

probably going to double today with some hills at lunch and a few easy miles after the offspring are in bed.

Glad to know there are people that do recovery runs around 9:00 mark. I usually run the first 1-2 miles a little faster, and THEN slow down.. not on purpose, I just can't seem to get that slow until mile 3, and then I seem to have no problem cruising along at anything up to 9:40.

Demo - as for background.. I've been running marathons for.. 3 years now? Running for 4 or 5, off and on. I was a Division I and elite gymnast in a former life (ok, not too long ago), and when I went to grad school started running seriously realizing I need some kind of "goal", and started doing distance running. Times. 3:37 on 30 mpw, 3 days a week, 3:43 (Boston 2012) on 35 mpw, and 1:36 half marathon, 3:28, 3:21. The faster times have admittedly been on Utah downhill courses, so I might have to really take it up to get around 3:15 at NYC.

OMR - I used to run my recovery runs too fast.. I still probably run easy runs too fast for the most part, and it's likely I run my LRs too fast. Honestly my plan is to just keep them all where they are until it fits my MP, and keep making tempos faster.

Nick - I ran this race in Mizuno WaveRider 15s. I switched to those from Asics 2160s when they discontinued them. I train in Kinvaras sometimes but have yet to race in them. I have some odd running strike that makes the outside toe area of my shoes wear out within 100 miles. Based on wear patterns, I don't think my heels touch the ground much when I run.

RB - thanks!! Glad to see you are back at it.

McBen - I hope to get longer tempos around there, too.. right now I can run 3-4 miles at under 7:00 pace but after that I start to fall closer to 7:10. On the TM I always run slower.

GPops, Oh- I see. That makes sense. I should'a figured you just typo'd TM to TV. I'm gonna blame not having had my coffee yet.

I took a gander at the training programs mentioned earlier. I know about the Hansons and their Brooks Distance Project, they coach local San Diego and Arizona State U. star Desi Avila. I also looked at the Hal Higdon. The Novice 2 seems like it is tailor made for me, at least by the description.

I'd like to ask a question of the more experienced here:

When they are talking about running at marathon pace (MP), I'm not sure what to use for myself. I know my HM pace, but my one and only marathon was so poorly run I can't honestly use it as representative. Should I take my HM pace and McMillan it to obtain my "representative" MP?

On a good strong day, with perfect conditions and rest, I can wrestle out a solid sub-8:00 10-miler, but I'm quite dubious I can maintain that for a full marathon. My last HM on 5/5/13 was my PR at 1:43:52, a 7:54 average.

When they are talking about running at marathon pace (MP), I'm not sure what to use for myself. I know my HM pace, but my one and only marathon was so poorly run I can't honestly use it as representative. Should I take my HM pace and McMillan it to obtain my "representative" MP?

On a good strong day, with perfect conditions and rest, I can wrestle out a solid sub-8:00 10-miler, but I'm quite dubious I can maintain that for a full marathon. My last HM on 5/5/13 was my PR at 1:43:52, a 7:54 average.

I think you'd be a bit closer doubling your HM time and adding 15 min (which is about 8:33, if I did correctly). Let's call it 8:30. IIRC you're not doing very high weekly mileage and McMillan assumes no big drop off.

Am in the airport headed home for a few days. DW gets back from the UAE on Sunday morning. They are having a blast but more than ready to come home.

KK, I remember your background as a D1 & Elite Gymnast from the 3:30 thread, and that you were running marathons on pretty low mileage while finishing law school. I have run a couple of marathons on 35-50 miles per week, and wouldn't recommend that as a steady training plan. Too painful the last 10K.

runbo: I'll try to type something up that's fairly detailed and probably post it on my blog with a link here. I've been thinking about doing that anyway, just as a way to look at what I've done in the past six months and eventually ask myself if there's anything I would have changed. (It may take me a couple of days.) Looks like you're getting back into the swing of things...and getting advice from Dad is always a good thing.

McBen: Regarding the hill stuff, yeah, I think most probably do it that way (grind, then shorter/faster). The reason I haven't was mostly because I'm considering it a strength/endurance workout, not a speed workout. That and the speed workouts I'm already doing are about all I can handle. Looks like a good start to your week! And I'm with you on New York; never...well...maybe...

Puto: More great advice from Dad...and Nick...who agrees with Dad...

Gpops: Are you going to calculate weather-related adjustments into those predictions?

KK: As Nick said, most here have conquered the 3:20 beast. Some of us, however, are still trying.

Nick: Nice 7 last night outrunning the Tstorm, and another good 8 this morning. And I'm not going to touch that...literally or figuratively.

Hey to everyone.

15.5M for me this morning: 60min easy, then 6 x 6min @ LT with 1min recovery, then 25min easy. Paces for the LT portion came in at 7:13, 7:50, 5:59, 6:09, 6:22, & 6:18. Pop quiz: Which interval was run entirely into the teeth of a 30mph headwind? Oh, but then I got to turn around! (My HR for the 5:59 interval was slightly lower than what it was for the 7:50 interval.)

OMR - yup, I can see the wind's effect on that workout. As for my marathon pacing, keep in mind that during my marathon, I had really bad wind. We had a massive tailwind for the first 6 miles, so my 7:25 ish pace was probably closer to 8:00 flat effort-wise (and my later 7:05s closer to 6:45-50 effort). If you want to see my splits mile by mile, they're here: http://www.runningahead.com/lo...41d4897a6bf5805ebecb

Jim - I don't actually have target paces. I just shoot for a certain effort, and the time is what it is. Funny thing is, running that way, I tend to run very evenly paced workouts. Only time I actually focus on pace is when doing MP runs (to make sure I don't go too fast).

Dad - see you in Oct and Nov (as well as this summer)

Tonz - best thoughts for the ankle.

Demo - hi, and welcome back to the other DW. Ditto on your comments about the great group of people here.

FB - that training plan is a variant of "run more", right?

Gpops - thanks for the summary of race time predictions. Take care of that Tibia!

Puto - I agree with Dad's ballparking. Also, I really recommend going out slower than goal pace, and re-evaluating as you go on. My coach tells us all to start our first miles at a jog, and then generally build. A good example is my friend who PRd at Richmond last fall with a low 2:5x. His first mile? 8:30 ish. See my comment to OMR on my pacing.

And yes, one of my two majors was English (other was economics). I really enjoy writing - hence the blog.

Calbears - hi speedy!

NS - send the cool our way? Actually not that hot here, but dewpoint of 70.... yup, it's a DC summer. And yes, I have NO power. I'm pretty strong, but not explosive.

PJ - are you thinking 3 week taper? Good luck on the NYC lottery. As for Annapolis, I'll probably skip. I just don't feel like fighting traffic.

McBen - double down.

KK - welcome, and thanks for the kind words. BTW, I love hearing about runners who come from other sports, and how their previous sports affect their training/running. BTW, I'm also a second sport runner - did horse stuff (hunter/jumper) to a pretty high level as a kid (and yes, it IS a sport). As for easy days, my paces range from 7:5x (when I'm feeling really rested and weather's good and terrain is flat) to upper 9s. I run with a watch, but keep the screen blanked as I run, so all runs are by effort. I don't have an easy run pace, but just an easy run effort - conversational. And if I'm with someone else, I'm always happy to slow down to run with them.

As for training plan, I have a coach and train with a team. So my plan is "do what he tells me to do." I run my workouts off of effort, but I also having him watching me, and he will tell me to slow down if I'm running too hard.

Runbo - glad you're feeling a bit better and have kicked the post-race feeling. And yeah, I do think long runs, especially those with blocks at MP, are key. I actually had a lousy training cycle - lower mileage than I wanted, missed some workouts. But I got three long runs in, each at about 21 miles with the last 7-8 at MP.

Thanks all for the comments on my blog post - I don't think I posted it here before. If you want to read some of my entertaining stuff, I recommend this race report:

BTW, this weekend is the unofficial start of summer. Who's in for the 1000 mile summer? Starts after work on Friday and goes until before work on Tuesday after Labor Day (so am and pm runners get equal number of days). I think I'll end up a tiny bit short, but figure a bit of competition/challenge won't hurt.

Dad, thank you for the info. That mean if I don't F*(k it all up, and all the stars align beautifully, I could pull off a 3:45. I'm going to be thrilled to death with a sub-4:00, so I'm going to set that as my mental bar. I'm pretty worn out after those HMs and in desperate need of hydration so I need to work on my watering strategems. I'm about to re-set and get my mileage back up to where it needs to be to start the Higdons N2.

Thanks for the affirmation on Dad's advice from NickShawn and DarkWave. DW, that's good advice, start out slow.

GPops, so the MP is the pace at which you finish, not the average overall pace?

Dad, That's a pretty adventurous goal. I was planning on taking all of 2013 to reach 1000 miles. I'm not quite on target, but I'm gonna step that up.

I hibernate in summer. I might only do 300 miles, and 50 of those will be in one shot.

I missed track last night, so I met a friend and we did the workout today, but in the park. It was 5x1000 so I switched the watch to metric units, which was interesting. Couldn't be more unpleasant to do in 80 degrees and 80 percent humidity. Did I mention I hibernate in summer?

PJ ~ Last night was miserable. I stepped outside after work and wilted. So I went back in and used TM. Our tiny gym at work is right next to loading dock, so I had most of the humidity even inside. I didn't stop sweating for about an hour.

If y'all haven't read DWave's blog on the Hot Chocolate 15K... well, that one's epic. It was going to be my goal race that fall...

Darkwave - I totally believe that horse jumping is a sport. Honestly, this might change when I get more serious with running but my elite gymnastics days make marathon training look not consuming at all. My paces range the same as yours I think, I dont' blank the screen but I try not to get too wrapped up in it as I've learned that sometimes they just vary.

Demo - my training plans have all been 35-50 mpw variety. Actually, I've never run more than 45 mpw. The last 10K of my last one didnt really suck.. I posted the splits in the 3:30 forum and it was actually a pretty significant negative split race, with the last 10K being mostly below a 7:30 pace. I really attribute my ability to speed up that much to the fact that I spent the first 15 miles of the race contemplating whether or not to finish it, and maybe not being able to feel my legs much due to the cold. I plan on topping out around 55 miles next cycle. I guess I'm scared of both injury and setting goals that are too far away from the last PR.

SirDiggby - I lived in SoFlo for a long time and still visit periodically.. I've definitely out run (and failed to outrun a T-storm).

Dad - sounds like a good tempo run. As for the 1000 miles.. well, I guess I've blown my cover as pretty low mileage, but I'm working on getting it up.

Pepperjack - I hibernated in the winter, but hoping the summer is better. We had the worst air quality that just couldn't be run in from Dec-Feb.

I finally ran this morning.. all of 2 miles. Slightly over 9:00 which was fine since last time I ran a marathon it took a week to get under a 10:00 pace. My legs felt ok, just tired, and I slowed down significantly in the 2nd mile. I'm being overly cautious because last time I ended up with a nasty IT band problem that persisted for a few months/

Dwave: Thanks for posting the splits. That's quite the race you ran. I'll have to check out the other post you mentioned later. And 91 degrees? Ugh...

Tonz: How's that ankle coming along?

Dad: Wind blows?? I thought wind sucked. OK, now I'm confused! Nice tempo run last night! As for the 1000 mile summer, it probably won't happen for me. I'll be tapering soon, then recovering. Or, perhaps like PJ, I'll go into hibernation.

Nick: Brief.

FB: "Three wet triples." I kind of misread that the first time, and figured you to have a bit of a genetic defect in the chest region.

KK: Congrats on getting back out there today. Being cautious sounds like a good plan as you ease back into it.

Gpops: Well, I'm just not as confident as the rest of you seem to be.

Hey to everyone...

6M recovery @ 8:42 for me today...hit 1300 for the year. Ran past a family of bikers, including a young boy, probably about age 10 or so, who was walking with his bike. As I ran past, he said the following with a rather concerned tone: "Mom...does it really look like I pooped my pants??"

OMR, how can you not be confident after your past 2 half's? You doing red white and boom or TCM?

DW, sounds like an active workout day. I am thinking about drills to help with my former and prevent injuries.

Dad, I am feeling better but have some border line niggles/potential injuries. Trying to take things real slow.

Just an easy 4 for me today sunny 61° I will take all year long. I saw on my calendar that my training starts 6/2. Got to stay healthy. So my 18yr old daughter is getting more into running. She is trying to run every day. I am trying to keep her from over doing it. I just don't know how resilient she is. She's already done 18m this week and wants to do more. She did 12 last week and next to nothing before. What you guys think?

Gpops: The marathon is an untamed beast...and you don't want to upset the beast! (That and I haven't done enough MP runs at this point to have an idea for pacing.) EDIT: Not doing either of those...just Grandma's at this point.

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