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Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

Those attitudes that you speak of are not targeted to the people who are on the fence about going to games.

They are targeted to the people that are not interested to even watch a game, hate the team and bash them for what happened 8 years ago.

Look.....rm1369 left the Pacers cuz JO'Bs product sucked.....I don't blame him. But to me....it's a 2 way street when it comes to fans returning....( 1 ) the fan should be willing to simply check out the "new product" and ( 2 ) it is also up to PS&E to put a better product...both in the Stands and on the floor for the fan.

The PS&E has IMHO done their part......they have put out a completely new product in both the stands and the floor. It's now up to the fans ( like rm1369 ) to simply give the Pacers a chance by seeing if this new product is worth spending time and effort on. I don't blame fans like rm1369 for leaving and staying away.....it's their choice.

The only thing that I can call them out on ( which to me is reasonable ) is if they are not willing to take a 2nd look at the Pacers ( because they think that it's the same old same old JO'B / Artest / SJax / Tinsley Team ) now that the Team ( ie, the "Product" in the stands and on the floor ) is totally different.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

Those attitudes that you speak of are not targeted to the people who are on the fence about going to games.

They are targeted to the people that are not interested to even watch a game, hate the team and bash them for what happened 8 years ago.

It's expressed pretty clearly by some that no matter what your experience or reason is its wrong - it doesn't measure up. It's been expressed by some that its obviously racism and the colts are supported because you can't see that a large percentage of the players are black (helmets). It's been expressed that Indy is a town of homebodies that see no reason to leave the house. Otherwise good posters have lost their minds because some don't love the team as much as they do. Am I saying this thread is keeping people away? Of course not. The majority of the people in this thread go to games (or would if they were in the area). But I somehow doubt that hearing those arguments or having their opinions and experiences so aggressively dismissed would help convince anyone. If this thread was posted in the star do you think it would help or hurt the pacers image?

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

Thanks for the (lively) back and forth rm1369. Sincerely.

I really do think it'd do all of us a ton of good to step back a bit and realize that die hard fans have entirely different priorities of why we'd support the franchise. I honestly don't get the seeming lack of understanding that a lot of people see going to a game the same sort of way they see going to a movie. Entertain me for a few hours and that's that.

We're die hard fans guys, we watched the JOB years every night because we're a little...off I guess. We have an irrational attachment to a navy blue and yellow jersey because it says Indiana on it. We're what, maybe like 6000 strong? That ain't enough, clearly. Some of you guys have to realize that not every sports fan is OMG I BLEED BLUE AND GOLD AND THEY CAN ABUSE ME ALL THEY WANT JUST TAKE MY MONEY. Because whether you want to admit it or not that's what the vast majority of this forum is and the Pacers aren't going to survive on Pacers Digest posters.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

The only thing that I can call them out on ( which to me is reasonable ) is if they are not willing to take a 2nd look at the Pacers now that the Team ( ie, the "Product" in the stands and on the floor ) is totally different.

I don't blame him either. I wasn't following the NBA in the JOB era (I was extremely lucky to start paying attention to the NBA the season after the Bulls series) but I have heard that it sucked bad.

I'm also not calling anyone out for not being willing to take a 2nd look at the Pacers. It is their right to do so as much as I think it's unfair.

But can those people refrain for spewing out ******** about the team left and right? That's what ticks me off. The horrible things that people say about the team just in order to have an excuse about not being willing to give a chance to the team.

You don't want to be a fan? Fine. It's your right and I will not blame you.

But stop saying BS in order to justify it. Just own up to it.

PS: I'm not saying that rm1369 is doing this thing. I don't know. He may very well want to believe indeed. So, I'm not going to judge him.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

The rest I don't give a **** about. Be the grammar police I don't give a ****. You don't like my opinion then quit reading it. I'm done dealing with someone that obviously just wants to be an ***.

I've not said one thing derogatory towards you, only contested your opinions about what you think about this team, if you didn't want your opinion contested then you shouldn't have posted in this very active thread full of people contesting what others believe about this team.

For the 2nd time you have called me an ***. Also I wasn't being the Grammar police, I was merely saying that you quit the Pacers, but your language implies that somehow you lost your fandom through a series of misfortunes.

I dont' see why it matters they haven't won a title, lots of teams haven't won a title. Until 2006 the Miami Heat never won a title, 2 years ago the Mavericks won their first title with one really good player and bunch of role players.

It's been expressed by some that its obviously racism and the colts are supported because you can't see that a large percentage of the players are black (helmets).

That problem is not specific of Indiana. Residual racism does exist in our 2013 society. We shouldn't hide it under the rug, in my opinion. There's a reason that the NBA attracts more African American fans while the Nascar attracts more Caucasian fans.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

I really do think it'd do all of us a ton of good to step back a bit and realize that die hard fans have entirely different priorities of why we'd support the franchise. I honestly don't get the seeming lack of understanding that a lot of people see going to a game the same sort of way they see going to a movie. Entertain me for a few hours and that's that.

We're die hard fans guys, we watched the JOB years every night because we're a little...off I guess. We have an irrational attachment to a navy blue and yellow jersey because it says Indiana on it. We're what, maybe like 6000 strong? That ain't enough, clearly. Some of you guys have to realize that not every sports fan is OMG I BLEED BLUE AND GOLD AND THEY CAN ABUSE ME ALL THEY WANT JUST TAKE MY MONEY. Because whether you want to admit it or not that's what the vast majority of this forum is and the Pacers aren't going to survive on Pacers Digest posters.

I dont' think anyone thinks the Pacers abuse them. Could it be that the majority of us here actually think the journey is just as important as the success? Thats why i am a die-hard fan even during their lowest lows. That doesn't make me off in anyway.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

I've stated that my biggest issue is with a league that pretty much requires a superstar to win a title. IMO, the vast majority of teams that don't have a top 5 player are nothing but fodder. As with everything else, graphic-er dismiss my opinion by stating the pacers have already disproven it. They have not. Detroit is the only team in the 25+ years of my Pacers fandom that have won a title without a superstar. Plenty of teams have done very well in the regular season and a few have done well in the playoffs. But only that one actually won a title. As the pressure, visibility, and stakes increase the superstar becomes exponentially more valuable in the NBA.

Do they have to win a title? No. But I have to feel they can. That doesn't mean they have to be on the cusp. I've supported them for many, many down years before I lost my faith in the league. And I've supported the colts since their arrival - good and bad. The difference is that I believe the nfl structure allows true competitiveness. I don't believe that in the NBA.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

I dont' think anyone thinks the Pacers abuse them. Could it be that the majority of us here actually think the journey is just as important as the success? Thats why i am a die-hard fan even during their lowest lows. That doesn't make me off in anyway.

I'm sorry, but yes it does. And I'm off because of it too. How else do you explain watching year after year of a team that you don't even actually enjoy watching? It's like hate watching a TV show. Dress it up and call it "die hard" all you want like it somehow means the previous 4+ years of wasting time watching crap basketball actually meant something, that's fine I'm the same way, but don't disparage people because they prefer to be actually legitimately entertained by something that should be an entertaining product.

This phenomenon of calling someone out or whatever because they don't like watching something that sucks makes no logical sense.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

I've not said one thing derogatory towards you, only contested your opinions about what you think about this team, if you didn't want your opinion contested then you shouldn't have posted in this very active thread full of people contesting what others believe about this team.

For the 2nd time you have called me an ***. Also I wasn't being the Grammar police, I was merely saying that you quit the Pacers, but your language implies that somehow you lost your fandom through a series of misfortunes.

I dont' see why it matters they haven't won a title, lots of teams haven't won a title. Until 2006 the Miami Heat never won a title, 2 years ago the Mavericks won their first title with one really good player and bunch of role players.

Your continued insistance that my daughter didn't completly enjoy the pacer game because I don't care for the NBA is you being nothing but contrary. How can you possibly know what my daughter thought about the two experiences? How can you possibly know how I came to not follow the pacers closely after 25+ years of fandom? I've stated several times that other than purposely skipping a few games during the JOb era that I did not intend to become apathetic towards the Pacers, but it slowly happened for various reasons. I've even stated my preference to having that feeling back because I enjoy being a fan and enjoy losing myself in the team / experience. However you have essentially continued to call me a liar and a quitter. In my book that is being an ***. You are telling me how I feel and how my daughter felt. How the hell can you possible know? A large portion of this thread is people doing the same thing to anyone that isn't in a seat. A few have asked questions and tried to understand where I am coming from. You have not. I stand by my opinion of our of our interactions in this thread.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

I've stated that my biggest issue is with a league that pretty much requires a superstar to win a title. IMO, the vast majority of teams that don't have a top 5 player are nothing but fodder. As with everything else, graphic-er dismiss my opinion by stating the pacers have already disproven it. They have not. Detroit is the only team in the 25+ years of my Pacers fandom that have won a title without a superstar. Plenty of teams have done very well in the regular season and a few have done well in the playoffs. But only that one actually won a title. As the pressure, visibility, and stakes increase the superstar becomes exponentially more valuable in the NBA.

Do they have to win a title? No. But I have to feel they can. That doesn't mean they have to be on the cusp. I've supported them for many, many down years before I lost my faith in the league. And I've supported the colts since their arrival - good and bad. The difference is that I believe the nfl structure allows true competitiveness. I don't believe that in the NBA.

Of course Superstars are important. Why shouldn't they be. In a game of 5 on 5, its only expected that certain players are going to be the creme de le creme. However superstars do not just exist, they are developed. So you can ***** and moan all you want about the unfairness of it all. Pacers had a superstar, but he wasn't as good as Jordan. Speaking of Chicago, it took the bulls almost a full decade to get another superstar. So its not like these players are just handed out to every big market team but the Pacers. The Knicks had an entire decade with out a superstar player!

How many teams in the NFL has won a title with out a super star QB in the modern era?

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

I'm sorry, but yes it does. And I'm off because of it too. How else do you explain watching year after year of a team that you don't even actually enjoy watching? It's like hate watching a TV show. Dress it up and call it "die hard" all you want like it somehow means the previous 4+ years of wasting time watching crap basketball actually meant something, that's fine I'm the same way, but don't disparage people because they prefer to be actually legitimately entertained by something that should be an entertaining product.

This phenomenon of calling someone out or whatever because they don't like watching something that sucks makes no logical sense.

I enjoyed watching the 4 years of JOB era. It wasn't wasting time. I got see Danny Granger develop into a legit all-star. I go to see the team grow into what it is today. The basketball may not have been what it is today, but there is more to being a fan than watching the basketball.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

I enjoyed watching the 4 years of JOB era. It wasn't wasting time. I got see Danny Granger develop into a legit all-star. I go to see the team grow into what it is today. The basketball may not have been what it is today, but there is more to being a fan than watching the basketball.

And there's more to selling basketball tix than watching the one guy worth a damn on the team drain 3s. And those reasons you listed are what separates us from people that just want to see a good game. We're not gonna get 18,000 die hards every night to watch a one time All Star gunner develop.

Seriously man, I think you're asking far too much from the [potential] fanbase.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

That problem is not specific of Indiana. Residual racism does exist in our 2013 society. We shouldn't hide it under the rug, in my opinion. There's a reason that the NBA attracts more African American fans while the Nascar attracts more Caucasian fans.

I certainly understand that racism exists and i could no doubt find a pacer fan that isn't coming for that reason. But the insinuation that the stands aren't being filled because Indy is filled with racist is absurd and offensive. The city has supported many black players and coaches. Edgerin James with dreads and gold teeth is far more loved than the clean cut Marsh Faulk or Eric Dickerson. Tony Dungy was loved. Its the same town that supported a trash talking Reggie, DD, AD and absolutely loves Reggie Wayne. I can guarantee sports fans in this town can recognize edge, Marvin, Reggie Wayne, and Dwight Freeney without their helmets. It's no secret - their black. But they are loved for what they haven meant to the team and the city. IMO it's complete BS.

I
If the Pacers games were every night in national TV do you think that it would help or hurt the image of the Indianapolis fanbase?

How other people perceive us? It would no doubt hurt. Although I'm not sure what that matters. I've not said why anyone shouldn't support the team. I've stated why I'm apethetic. I'm not really concerned how other cities perceive us. Miami's seats are filled but ask any other teams fans and they'll tell you how they are all bandwagon fans anyway. Same with LA - they don't go to watch the game, they go to be seen. Not sure what it matters.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

Your continued insistance that my daughter didn't completly enjoy the pacer game because I don't care for the NBA is you being nothing but contrary. How can you possibly know what my daughter thought about the two experiences? How can you possibly know how I came to not follow the pacers closely after 25+ years of fandom? I've stated several times that other than purposely skipping a few games during the JOb era that I did not intend to become apathetic towards the Pacers, but it slowly happened for various reasons. I've even stated my preference to having that feeling back because I enjoy being a fan and enjoy losing myself in the team / experience. However you have essentially continued to call me a liar and a quitter. In my book that is being an ***. You are telling me how I feel and how my daughter felt. How the hell can you possible know? A large portion of this thread is people doing the same thing to anyone that isn't in a seat. A few have asked questions and tried to understand where I am coming from. You have not. I stand by my opinion of our of our interactions in this thread.

WTF? I didn't say anything about your daughter. I said you. Your original post said "I took my daughter to a game, had a so so time. I took my daughter to a Colts game, had a great time." Meaning you had a great time or a so so time. You said you didn't care for the team anymore. But you obviously like the NFL. If you state prior that you don't care for the team or league anymore, but went to a game and had so so experience. Its pretty easy to conclude that you are preconditioned to not have a great time at an NBA game. LOL! You must be drunk or really tired, because I didn't say anything regarding what your daughter thinks or says. You already said she dont' know anything about sports anyways, just which crowd is more fun. Why i would I focus on that? I focused on what you said about the team.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

I've stated that my biggest issue is with a league that pretty much requires a superstar to win a title. IMO, the vast majority of teams that don't have a top 5 player are nothing but fodder. As with everything else, graphic-er dismiss my opinion by stating the pacers have already disproven it. They have not. Detroit is the only team in the 25+ years of my Pacers fandom that have won a title without a superstar. Plenty of teams have done very well in the regular season and a few have done well in the playoffs. But only that one actually won a title. As the pressure, visibility, and stakes increase the superstar becomes exponentially more valuable in the NBA.

Do they have to win a title? No. But I have to feel they can. That doesn't mean they have to be on the cusp. I've supported them for many, many down years before I lost my faith in the league. And I've supported the colts since their arrival - good and bad. The difference is that I believe the nfl structure allows true competitiveness. I don't believe that in the NBA.

I see. I don't believe that you necessarily need a superstar to win a title. I believe that several players are made into superstars when they win a title.

Dirk wouldn't be considered a superstar by many people prior to his title. I know for sure that he wasn't considered a top 5 player in 2011. But he did win.

Why? Because he had a real team besides him and played like the best player on the court for the most part of that Finals series.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

I really do think it'd do all of us a ton of good to step back a bit and realize that die hard fans have entirely different priorities of why we'd support the franchise. I honestly don't get the seeming lack of understanding that a lot of people see going to a game the same sort of way they see going to a movie. Entertain me for a few hours and that's that.

We're die hard fans guys, we watched the JOB years every night because we're a little...off I guess. We have an irrational attachment to a navy blue and yellow jersey because it says Indiana on it. We're what, maybe like 6000 strong? That ain't enough, clearly. Some of you guys have to realize that not every sports fan is OMG I BLEED BLUE AND GOLD AND THEY CAN ABUSE ME ALL THEY WANT JUST TAKE MY MONEY. Because whether you want to admit it or not that's what the vast majority of this forum is and the Pacers aren't going to survive on Pacers Digest posters.

Thanks Heisenberg. I appreciate the discussion. I was a die hard fan for many many years. I understand where most on here are coming from. I'm just not there now and I believe there are many like me. I know several. Slightly different reasons / feelings, but the same overall situation.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

I certainly understand that racism exists and i could no doubt find a pacer fan that isn't coming for that reason. But the insinuation that the stands aren't being filled because Indy is filled with racist is absurd and offensive. The city has supported many black players and coaches. Edgerin James with dreads and gold teeth is far more loved than the clean cut Marsh Faulk or Eric Dickerson. Tony Dungy was loved. Its the same town that supported a trash talking Reggie, DD, AD and absolutely loves Reggie Wayne. I can guarantee sports fans in this town can recognize edge, Marvin, Reggie Wayne, and Dwight Freeney without their helmets. It's no secret - their black. But they are loved for what they haven meant to the team and the city. IMO it's complete BS.

I didn't say that the stands aren't being filled because Indy is filled with racists. I just noted that there is indeed residual racism in most people. Nothing more and nothing less. I'm not making a point about it regarding the Pacers or the Colts. It was just something that was noted and I agreed that it indeed plays a role even in our subconscious.

How other people perceive us? It would no doubt hurt. Although I'm not sure what that matters. I've not said why anyone shouldn't support the team. I've stated why I'm apethetic. I'm not really concerned how other cities perceive us. Miami's seats are filled but ask any other teams fans and they'll tell you how they are all bandwagon fans anyway. Same with LA - they don't go to watch the game, they go to be seen. Not sure what it matters.

There's a big difference between fans of other teams thinking of the fanbase of your franchise as bandwagoners or show-offs and them thinking that your franchise should move to another city because no one is giving a damn about it in the city in which they play.

But as I said my problem is not with the attendance. It's your right to not attend. It's not your right to just spew BS about the team out of spite and bitterness.

Which is why I have been polite with you. You haven't spewed any BS or misinformation about the team. You're jut explaining why you're not coming to games. But, believe me, I wouldn't be polite with that person that wrote the article.

Last edited by Nuntius; 02-23-2013 at 04:53 AM.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

WTF? I didn't say anything about your daughter. I said you. Your original post said "I took my daughter to a game, had a so so time. I took my daughter to a Colts game, had a great time." Meaning you had a great time or a so so time. You said you didn't care for the team anymore. But you obviously like the NFL. If you state prior that you don't care for the team or league anymore, but went to a game and had so so experience. Its pretty easy to conclude that you are preconditioned to not have a great time at an NBA game. LOL! You must be drunk or really tired, because I didn't say anything regarding what your daughter thinks or says. You already said she dont' know anything about sports anyways, just which crowd is more fun. Why i would I focus on that? I focused on what you said about the team.

I said I took my daughter to both venues. I said my daughter felt the colts game was more fun because of the crowd interaction. I said she had no allegiance to either team. I said id be more likely to take her to a colts game because she enjoyed it more. I said the crowd was a chicken / egg situation that would get better and that I would likely take her back to try again when a consistant crowd builds. The whole damn paragraph is about me taking my daughter and her experience. Why the hell would I mention all of that about my daughter if it's not important to my point. There is maybe one sentence in that paragraph that talks about something other than my daughter and her experience. I'm going to assume you have no kids. Is that accurate? I took my daughter to bond with her. I took her to try to expose her to the product. She didn't really enjoy it - not like the colts game. My enjoyment was completely tied to hers. I've enjoyed being at chuckey cheese on occasion when my kids have loved it. Otherwise I hate the place. But you only continued to tell me how it was because i don't like the NBA. The fact is you don't give a **** about my opinion. You certainly don't care enough to try to understand. You only want to criticize. Which is your right. I just don't understand why you keep responding to me when you obviously don't want to understand where I'm coming from. I guess the real question is why I keep responding to you. It's a damn good questions that I don't have an answer to. I'm done.

The Following User Says Thank You to rm1369 For This Useful Post:

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

rm1369, the only thing that I guess that I ( and many fans here ) can suggest/ask...is that you just try to catch a game on TV every now and then...just to see that they aren't the same Team as before.

Although I am sure that the NBA Product ( as a whole ) seems skewed towards the "Super Teams", IMHO....it's more about the game itself when a Local Team plays. I can understand that it would be hard to root for a really bad Team ( much less spend $$$ and time on them )...but we as ( obviously ) biased fans...can tell you that this Team isn't that bad and worth rooting for....cuz they play really hard-nosed basketball.

If you watch it and it still sucks...then that is fine....the product just doesn't fit your time and needs anymore. Ignore the "glitz and glamour" from the NBA "Super Teams" and just go watch a Pacers game on TV....if anything...it's good TV and IMHO good basketball.

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Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

I don't fault anyone for not going to a Pacers game. Not everyone has to like the NBA. I don't really follow the NFL after I saw Anthony Gonzalez nearly get decapitated in Philly a few years ago. I'd rather not support a sport where I'm watching people slowly commit suicide, but I get why other people do.

I've just accepted that Indiana is not a state that cares about pro basketball. I'm at the point where I'd almost prefer the Pacers move to a city that would support them in a way they deserve. This has been one of the best run small market franchises in league history and no one cares. Indiana frankly doesn't deserve a pro team when a city like Sacramento doesn't have one.

Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

I don't fault anyone for not going to a Pacers game. Not everyone has to like the NBA. I don't really follow the NFL after I saw Anthony Gonzalez nearly get decapitated in Philly a few years ago. I'd rather not support a sport where I'm watching people slowly commit suicide, but I get why other people do.

I've just accepted that Indiana is not a state that cares about pro basketball. I'm at the point where I'd almost prefer the Pacers move to a city that would support them in a way they deserve. This has been one of the best run small market franchises in league history and no one cares. Indiana frankly doesn't deserve a pro team when a city like Sacramento doesn't have one.

I guess the irony is lost in the fact that you are saying this on a web site dedicated to the Indiana Pacers and yes several of us live around here.

Also the irony may also be lost in the fact that you are saying this on a night in which BLF was nearly sold out vs a team that is poor with no superstars or even name brand players to draw a casual fan.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13