This is one of the reasons why I hate the whole "climate change" thing... it takes the blame and action away from the individual. You are being asked to change your political stance when that has nothing to do with the real issue. If you are a liberal, you can think it is the fault of the evil multinational companies when really it is the fault of the people who buy what the multinationals are selling (everyone). If you are a conservative, you blame the evil governments and their wasting of money when really it is the fault of the people who using the electrical grid and driving on the highway system (yes, everyone). I also blame electric cars and hydrogen fuel and even NASA and it's moon landing... people think that the solution is somewhere in the future... "when science catches up, I will buy in to their solution" when the real solution was practiced by humanity for centuries before we had something other then wood to burn. You can go to zero carbon emissions right now and pay for it in eliminated bills over a few years ROI. You don't need high technology (although some old technologies might be handy), you just need to quit buying stuff including energy. I just stopped cooking and using a refrigerator and brought my energy use down to lights and heat. I used electric blankets (100w for an hour on cold nights) to eliminate heating my house. When getting below freezing, I had to use jugs of water instead of running water. This was without using any of the fine building technologies to have a house stay at room temperature year-round with no HVAC system. My point is that you do not need to wait for technologies or political change... you can do something right now and still vote for your favorite political views. YOU are the problem, YOU are the solution, YOU have the power and technology to do so TODAY.

I've been around the world and seen a lot. The sad fact is that humans in general are a stupid, selfish beast. They didn't have the sense to stop breeding when the ecological niche was full enough. They are like birds that foul their own nest to the point of dying from the filth. (Seen in rotted overhangs)What Ms. Vole says is true, also. Individual action is necessary, in addition to that of governments.Even a collective worldwide kick in the ass will not overcome human inertia to change.The too small percentage of us who see it coming and have taken steps to live green, educate and lead others, and try to move the stubborn ass of humanity, just have not had the power and money to do the job. Ecocidal maniacs as a species, except for a small minority who have one or no children, and live green, on solar or wind, driving a hybrid or electric, composting and growing much of their own food, buying local, reducing, re-using, and recycling, living in eco-homes, and fully understand ecology and the exponential function.

_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

I don't think that people are stupid, I find the issue of climate change fascinating myself, and I think the science has convinced most knowledgeable people that bad things will happen if we fail to address this issue.

The problem is doing something about it. We depend on fossil fuels, lots of people make a living from them. Climate change is not the only problem facing the world and some other problems seem more immediate.

Having said that if the science is correct the climate has started to impact those other problems; for example the drought in America affects the whole world through food prices, this can lead to political instability in far flung corners of the world. More places at the rule of gunmen will not be good for the war on terror. I see no reason why this sort of thing should not get worse in the future.

I don't think that people are stupid, I find the issue of climate change fascinating myself, and I think the science has convinced most knowledgeable people that bad things will happen if we fail to address this issue.

The problem is doing something about it. We depend on fossil fuels, lots of people make a living from them. Climate change is not the only problem facing the world and some other problems seem more immediate.

Having said that if the science is correct the climate has started to impact those other problems; for example the drought in America affects the whole world through food prices, this can lead to political instability in far flung corners of the world. More places at the rule of gunmen will not be good for the war on terror. I see no reason why this sort of thing should not get worse in the future.

Sorry for my bleak assessment but this the way I see it.

The problem with that bleak assessment is the US military agrees with it and has labeled climate change a threat to national security because of it.

_________________With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none” Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."Albert Einstein

The problem is doing something about it. We depend on fossil fuels, lots of people make a living from them. Climate change is not the only problem facing the world and some other problems seem more immediate

Rising fuel prices hurts everybody. The fuel industry does not like to lose customers and that is exactly what happens every time the price spikes. Food prices are strongly influenced by fuel prices and that affects the poor and those in wars over land. Rising fuel prices also hurt the economy more then any other factor. For these reasons and more, QUIT USING fuels to keep their price low... everyone will benefit including the fuel industry (we will never run out of uses for fuel). Weather is going to change no matter what we do about it. If it was not CO2 it would be something else. This is why the threat of CO2, although dire, is still just something we have seen before (weather patterns are constantly changing). Lets do what we can to let people and animals move around the globe to deal with such weather changes. For this reason, quit buying food to let agriculture have some breathing space to adapt and extra food to go to people that need it to survive the wars they are in or crisis due to weather changes. Roads, fences, and boarders need to be removed if possible to allow people and animals to deal with the weather changes. PS... people are likely going to be moving OUT of the USA if the agricultural areas are turning to desert from extra heat as the current weather changes seem to be doing. Flooding of coastal areas will also create a desire to leave the USA for lots of people.

Will you listen to yourselves. Everyone is stupid? What a convenient argument. Perhaps your message is lacking.

Obviously, most to you means all. "In general" does NOT mean "everyone". I know the message since Earth Day One and since the real threat of AGW over 20 years ago, and have written countless letters, faxes, and emails, plus forum posts about it, and have lead by example. Only a very small percentage is living green, here in the US and around the world. Not everyone is a selfish, stupid beast---just the vast majority of the human species. They drag down other species, and those in their own species who are trying to live sustainably. Although US emissions are going down, insufficiently, the world total is going up.The message is not lacking. It is the general lack of understanding reduce, re-use, recycle, along with lacking far sightedness, and possessing too much selfishness and greed. It is the general lack of will to do what is needed to reduce emissions enough, because to do so would hurt economically now. Told of consequences unseen or un-imagined, even though they are far worse, are unheeded warnings. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Humanity, in general, is making a choice by inaction. That choice is for ecocide.

_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

I don't think that people are stupid, I find the issue of climate change fascinating myself, and I think the science has convinced most knowledgeable people that bad things will happen if we fail to address this issue.

The problem is doing something about it. We depend on fossil fuels, lots of people make a living from them. Climate change is not the only problem facing the world and some other problems seem more immediate.

Having said that if the science is correct the climate has started to impact those other problems; for example the drought in America affects the whole world through food prices, this can lead to political instability in far flung corners of the world. More places at the rule of gunmen will not be good for the war on terror. I see no reason why this sort of thing should not get worse in the future.

Sorry for my bleak assessment but this the way I see it.

1 What bad things do you think are going to happen? The "consensus" IPCC says that the worst case scenario is for a less than 2 foot sea level rise by 2100. Is there something else you think will produce a disaster?

2 World food prices are artificially high due to the practice of using lots of food to make bio-deisel. This is killing people faster than Hiltler ever managed it.

3 The world is less war torn now than it's ever been. The poor world is slowly getting better, mostly. Organisations such as the Gates foundation are making the obsticles to development overcomable for all nations.

I don't think that people are stupid, I find the issue of climate change fascinating myself, and I think the science has convinced most knowledgeable people that bad things will happen if we fail to address this issue.

The problem is doing something about it. We depend on fossil fuels, lots of people make a living from them. Climate change is not the only problem facing the world and some other problems seem more immediate.

Having said that if the science is correct the climate has started to impact those other problems; for example the drought in America affects the whole world through food prices, this can lead to political instability in far flung corners of the world. More places at the rule of gunmen will not be good for the war on terror. I see no reason why this sort of thing should not get worse in the future.

Sorry for my bleak assessment but this the way I see it.

1 What bad things do you think are going to happen? The "consensus" IPCC says that the worst case scenario is for a less than 2 foot sea level rise by 2100. Is there something else you think will produce a disaster?

You mean beside the other concerns you always seem to ignore? Increased flooding and/or drought in some areas are one. Increased problems with pests such as the insects which attack crops and spread diseases are another. Changes in the range of flora is another. Increased wild fires are yet another. Of course there is your focus on the sea level rise which you believe is offset by making up figures and claiming it will not be a problem at all.

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2 World food prices are artificially high due to the practice of using lots of food to make bio-deisel. This is killing people faster than Hiltler ever managed it.

Odd, what food is that? The food crops do not usually make good conversions to fuel. Maybe you are speaking of corn? I wonder if you know the corn used in making ethanol is not the corn humans generally consume? It is the type of corn fed to animals, used in industry, and used for making food additives. In the US about 3% of that corn is used for food, such as corn meal, flour, and flakes. Even the by-product of the wet milling used to make ethanol is used for animal feed.

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3 The world is less war torn now than it's ever been. The poor world is slowly getting better, mostly. Organisations such as the Gates foundation are making the obsticles to development overcomable for all nations.

Really? You have some data to support this claim or is it another assumption?

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The most serious problem is, as always, bad thinking.

Like that you are trying to give us in place of actual facts?

_________________With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none” Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."Albert Einstein

I think we're mostly all idiots, period, present company and myself excepted.

I disagree.Indifferent, possibly.It isn't a subject that regulation comes up in conversation in the office, in the pub, or over the garden fence.Football, soaps, the weather, celeb gossip, the government, the ineptitude of government at local and national, the economy, family matters, cars, the price of fuels etc... all get discussed. But climate change? Not so much in my experience.

Last edited by Besoeker on Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I disagree.Indifferent possibly.It isn't a subject that regulation comes up in conversation in the office, in the pub, or over the garden fence.Football, soaps, the weather, celeb gossip, the government, the ineptitude of government at local and national, the economy, family matters, cars, the price of fuels etc... all get discussed. But climate change? Not so much in my experience.

Climate change has turned the weather into a subject you don't raise in polite company like politics and religion. Imagine if you are having a conversation with your plumber and he starts ranting about how easy it will be to build huge seawalls everywhere.