---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

I confess to wondering what this fleeing from one place to another is really about.

I was also kind of puzzled by the long thread about ordaining, the public statement that was the film and now this thread. Maybe I see this as a very private thing... I'd be interested to hear Phra Thanavuddho share his reasons for doing it this way.

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Dan74 wrote:I confess to wondering what this fleeing from one place to another is really about.

I understand why you wonder about it, Dan74. Monks fleeing from WMJ is nothing new. I'm not the first one to do it. In recent years I've seen many monks either disrobe or leave WMJ. And this has been going on even before my time.

I was also kind of puzzled by the long thread about ordaining, the public statement that was the film and now this thread. Maybe I see this as a very private thing... I'd be interested to hear Phra Thanavuddho share his reasons for doing it this way.

I share with you what happens in my life like billions of other people do. If I would be doing this only for my self, I don't think I would have ordained in the first place.

Would you mind sharing some of the reasons why people have been leaving WMJ and perhaps why you decided that you didn't agree with how things were handled? You don't have to name names or anything, I would just like to know what the issues are and since the ball already has been set rolling here in the forum so to speak. Something tells me this has partly to do with the Australian Bhikkhuni ordination, but I could be wrong..

richard_rca wrote:Would you mind sharing some of the reasons why people have been leaving WMJ and perhaps why you decided that you didn't agree with how things were handled?

I too am curious, (very curious!) but something in my vinaya-instinct tells me it would be unwholesome to talk about it. Bhikkus talking to laypeople about bhikkus... I dunno, it just seems a little unseemly.

Then, saturated with joy, you will put an end to suffering and stress.SN 9.11

richard_rca wrote:Would you mind sharing some of the reasons why people have been leaving WMJ and perhaps why you decided that you didn't agree with how things were handled?

I too am curious, (very curious!) but something in my vinaya-instinct tells me it would be unwholesome to talk about it. Bhikkus talking to laypeople about bhikkus... I dunno, it just seems a little unseemly.

Hehe, yeah I know, and we all know what happened to the cat, but most of the story has already been revealed anyway and I personally am not directly involved with the Theravada orthodoxy enough to feel that their actions and decisions would be above being discussed, quite the opposite if it's done somewhat respectfully.

richard_rca wrote:Would you mind sharing some of the reasons why people have been leaving WMJ and perhaps why you decided that you didn't agree with how things were handled?

Did you know that Thaksin Shinawatra offered a kathina one year at WMJ? This was many years ago. Perhaps at that time Thaksin had better relations with Luangta, than later on.

Two peculiar books have been published after Luangta's death. They contain pictures of different Thai ajahns and short quotations from Luangta's talks. In these quotes Luangta declares these ajahns to have reached different levels of enlightenment.

Both of these books have a picture of Ajahn Anan. Luangta visited WMJ at least two times. Both of these times he said that Ajahn Anan has reached a level of enlightenment.

If Luangta said that, then it has to be true, right? We can take a more careful look at these two books that I mentioned earlier. What method did Luangta use to define who is enlightened and who isn't? Many times he speaks about the remains of a monk that have turned into relics.

One time Ajahn Anan gave me some buddha relics. They where small colorful balls.

"This is a bit strange..." I thought. "how come I got relics of the Buddha so easily?" In fact, every monk at WMJ got a small amount of those relics.

I went to inquire about these relics from the Ajahn.

"Are the relics real, ajahn?" I asked.

"Yes. They are real" Ajahn said. "If you put them in water, they will float and unite in the surface."

I went back to my hut and dropped the relics into a class of water. They sank into the bottom and stayed there. I understand more clearly now why teachers such as Ajahn Chah or Buddhadasa didn't talk much about supernatural phenomenon.

Ajahn Anan likes giving away relics. He gave away about 200 to 300 relics during a recent retreat at Bodhivana in Melbourne. I got three, these ones look like coarse sand. He said they appeared spontaneously in his bag as he was climbing Sri Pada in Sri Lanka.So, apparently miracles still happen.

Relics about 2mm in diameter.

Then, saturated with joy, you will put an end to suffering and stress.SN 9.11

Relics are common in Thailand. If seen huge halls full of different kinds of relics. They play hypnotic chanting in the backround. There's a donation box at the door... This kind of thing is bound not to go down very well with the Westeners.

richard_rca wrote:Would you mind sharing some of the reasons why people have been leaving WMJ and perhaps why you decided that you didn't agree with how things were handled?

Did you know that Thaksin Shinawatra offered a kathina one year at WMJ? This was many years ago. Perhaps at that time Thaksin had better relations with Luangta, than later on.

Two peculiar books have been published after Luangta's death. They contain pictures of different Thai ajahns and short quotations from Luangta's talks. In these quotes Luangta declares these ajahns to have reached different levels of enlightenment.

Both of these books have a picture of Ajahn Anan. Luangta visited WMJ at least two times. Both of these times he said that Ajahn Anan has reached a level of enlightenment.

If Luangta said that, then it has to be true, right? We can take a more careful look at these two books that I mentioned earlier. What method did Luangta use to define who is enlightened and who isn't? Many times he speaks about the remains of a monk that have turned into relics.

One time Ajahn Anan gave me some buddha relics. They where small colorful balls.

"This is a bit strange..." I thought. "how come I got relics of the Buddha so easily?" In fact, every monk at WMJ got a small amount of those relics.

I went to inquire about these relics from the Ajahn.

"Are the relics real, ajahn?" I asked.

"Yes. They are real" Ajahn said. "If you put them in water, they will float and unite in the surface."

I went back to my hut and dropped the relics into a class of water. They sank into the bottom and stayed there. I understand more clearly now why teachers such as Ajahn Chah or Buddhadasa didn't talk much about supernatural phenomenon.

Thank you for sharing. So to clarify, did you lose faith in the abbot due to these "superstitions"? Did you try to talk to him about it?

How does all of this work when it comes to visa regulations? Do ordained people going to stay in other countries like Australia get a visa sponsorship by their monastery or something?

Having stayed in Australia for a few years in the past I know that it ain't easy to just settle down and stay permanently if you can't find a company to sponsor you. I'm assuming that monks don't apply for either student or working holiday visas either, so is there some sort of religious sponsorship were talking about here, and how would that affect your visa status if you decided to defect? Questions, questions...

richard_rca wrote:How does all of this work when it comes to visa regulations? Do ordained people going to stay in other countries like Australia get a visa sponsorship by their monastery or something?

There's been some confusion around this. I have a half a year, double entry tourist visa in Australia. It's not a religious workers visa. As far as I understood, there's nothing in that visa that requires a sponsorship. As far as law goes, I'm here as a tourist.

So what are your long term plans? Are you intent on staying in Australia if everything works out with the new monastery? I can see from your blog that you aren't much impressed with Thai buddhism anymore so I'm assuming you won't return there, but have you really thought thru what consequences the content in your very public postings are going to have?