You can prop the kickstand up on your legs. That was obvious without the link. It looks awkward, and it seems like it would be pretty easy to move the wrong way and spill the device backwards onto the floor.

Echohead2 wrote:

How many iPad users also have a laptop? how many ultrabook owners also own a tablet? Instead of owning both, you just get the one and it works as both.

Yes, it works as poor version of both.

Echohead2 wrote:

God, I love when people recycle history. You know this has been done, right?

How many iPad users also have a laptop? how many ultrabook owners also own a tablet? Instead of owning both, you just get the one and it works as both.

Yes, it works as poor version of both.

[citation needed]

I dunno how it will turn out but I'm thinking it will be as functional as a tablet (give it a 100% score) and it'll be a little smaller than an ultrabook but it will be even more portable (say 90% of an ultrabook, mostly because of the smaller screen). But that also depends on some other stuff, like how much RAM it will have, etc. If it lives up to the promise, it really will mean that instead of a tablet and an ultrabook, I can have one thing to carry around instead of two and still be able to do almost everything I want to do (won't be fast at games but no ultrabook is, will probably be a little cramped to run multiple VMs, but that's OK, too).

Yeah, personally, I have no problem moving to a desk to do anything I need to do with a keyboard. It's what I do now anyway even with a real laptop. It's just an all around more reasonable work environment.

I do everything I can to avoid "working" on planes and most people use the tray table anyway. So I think the concern is a bit overblown. I would lay odds that laptops are rarely used on laps in this day and age...at least not when used for productivity purposes.

Again, what pressing user problem is this solving? It saves you from having to carry two devices around? OK, were many people actually doing that to begin with?

For me, I wasn't even carrying around my iPad because it didn't do enough for me worth the effort of carrying it around. I didn't even bother charging it for over 4 months because I used my iPhone for most anything I needed (my phone and the iPad did the same things for me, just the phone was infinitely more portable). This thing does more than my phone and may actually be worth (for me) keeping it charged and actually carrying it around. I can see programming on the couch (not possible with the iPad at all and I could do it with a laptop but the laptops I have are older and it wasn't worth buying a new one).

That's actually there... Microsoft has talked about it before. But I agree with you... they should have really pounded on that during the Surface unveiling.

As far as I know it isn't quite there; settings can sync, but data only syncs if it's in SkyDrive, and I don't think apps automatically become available.

Apps sync, and so does the state and settings within apps if the developer has used the roaming state/settings APIs (which of course is the rub). You have to set up an account for it though, you can't just log on to a random computer.

Again, what pressing user problem is this solving? It saves you from having to carry two devices around? OK, were many people actually doing that to begin with?

Yes. Seriously have you not seen lots of people with iPads and laptops?

If you have a laptop with you, why on earth would you need an iPad, too?

It's more fun dicking about with an iPad than the company laptop.

I said, "need."

People will swear blind they need stuff — latest phone, new laptop, iPad, whatever — but what they end up using it for is another thing. I'm surprised people are questioning the two devices thing, I've known plenty of people who "carry" two laptops, never mind a laptop and tablet.

For me, I wasn't even carrying around my iPad because it didn't do enough for me worth the effort of carrying it around.

This is the issue with this kind of hybrid product. If tablet functionality is so important to you so as to be worth carrying around two devices, are you really going to accept compromised tablet functionality to avoid the second device? If tablet functionality isn't important enough to you so as to be worth carrying around two devices, are you really going to accept compromised ultrabook functionality to get it?

I'm sure there are some people who would answer "yes" to one of these questions, but a lot of Surface Pro's proponents seem to be taking it for granted that there are a large number of them, and that this device makes just the right trade-offs to appeal to them. This is not at all obvious to me.

OrangeCream wrote:

Compared to an ultrabook, this has a nicer screen (1080p!), larger battery (42WHr), and probably longer battery life (10.6" vs 11.6")

That happens to be true vs. today's MacBook Air, but there's nothing inherent to Surface Pro's form factor that makes these long-term advantages. If Surface Pro can do those things, there's no technical barrier to next year's Air (or perhaps some other ultrabook shipping in the 6-7 month timeframe in which Surface Pro will ship) doing them as well.

OrangeCream wrote:

Compared to an ARM tablet, it has a better keyboard!

There are many keyboard accessories for iPad. There's nothing quite as transparent when it comes to carrying it around with the device as the Touch Cover, but on the other hand you've giving up some keyboard quality for that convenience. Again, it's not clear that anyone was asking for that, exactly.

OrangeCream wrote:

I know $1k is steep, so I might actually go for the RT version instead.

Why is an iPad with a keyboard accessory not a better choice at that point? You get a Retina screen, a more mature touch ecosystem, optional 4G. And 4-5 months after Surface RT hits, the iPad 4 will probably be shipping.

I guess it might make sense if if you really want Office and the rumors of an iOS release are incorrect (or the iOS release is missing too much).

If tablet functionality is so important to you so as to be worth carrying around two devices, are you really going to accept compromised tablet functionality to avoid the second device? If tablet functionality isn't important enough to you so as to be worth carrying around two devices, are you really going to accept compromised ultrabook functionality to get it?

I haven't found where you explained why you think this is a compromised tablet. I scanned back through posts but I can't find it. I don't think it's compromised tablet functionality /shrug

Quote:

Why is an iPad with a keyboard accessory not a better choice at that point? You get a Retina screen, a more mature touch ecosystem, optional 4G. And 4-5 months after Surface RT hits, the iPad 4 will probably be shipping.

iPad has no pointing device. Surface Pro is close enough to retina. 4G doesn't really matter if you have a modern smartphone (hotspot). iPad doesn't do enough because of policy. I can't think of any hardware they could add to the iPad (version 4) that will trump being able to write code on the same device, not just running a remote editor... unless the policy changes (doubtful).

@ZnU: Office is huge! But yes, if Office for iPad is released, I may actually just wait for the iPad+ (either 3 dropped to $399 or 4 for $499) with the ugly Keyboard Folio or pretty but battery powered Keyboard Cover.

That of course pushes the tablet up to $500 or $630 depending on which model, plus $50 or $60 for Office.

It might be cheaper to get the RT if the keyboard is included in the price.

I haven't found where you explained why you think this is a compromised tablet. I scanned back through posts but I can't find it. I don't think it's compromised tablet functionality /shrug

Surface Pro? Weight and (almost certainly) battery life. I've said this at least half a dozen times.

fitten wrote:

iPad has no pointing device. Surface Pro is close enough to retina. 4G doesn't really matter if you have a modern smartphone (hotspot). iPad doesn't do enough because of policy. I can't think of any hardware they could add to the iPad (version 4) that will trump being able to write code on the same device, not just running a remote editor... unless the policy changes (doubtful).

He was saying he might go with Surface RT. That's essentially as locked down as an iPad.

Another thing to consider is that the standard comparison in this thread has been Surface Pro vs. MacBook Air + iPad. But an ultrabook + a sub-$300 7" tablet is also a possible point of comparison, especially if Apple releases one that brings the iOS ecosystem to that form factor. If the advantage of Surface Pro is that it's more portable and cheaper than an ultrabook + 10" tablet, a smaller, cheaper tablet helps with that.

You mean that the iPhone is a worse music player than the iPod? I don't think that's actually true, though. One of Apple's marketing lines for the iPhone was "The best music player we've ever made", and I think they were right. Adding a large touch screen, the ability to buy music on the device, etc. made for a better music player.

And you could say that it is much larger than the shuffle or nano. You could also say it isn't as good as the touch since it is more expensive, it has less storage than classic, etc. etc. Who gives a shit what apple SAYS? In many many ways it is inferior to iPods. But one major thing is--now you don't have to carry two.

You could say the same thing about digital cameras and iPhone. the iPhone is a worse digital camera. or GPS, etc. etc. But it eliminates devices. Why have a tablet and a laptop when you cna have a device that is slightly between the two that replaces both? A lighter more portable smaller laptop with all the other benefits of a tablet.

Quote:

It's worse at being an ultrabook because the keyboard accessories probably aren't as good as a built-in ultrabook keyboard

PROBABLY. and that depends on what metric you are using, right? The tablet keybaord would be lighter and thinner so "wins" there.

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and the kickstand scheme makes using a keyboard with the thing on your lap look extremely awkward.

By all means, let's go with how you think it looks versus someone who has used it and speccifically commented on that aspect and reported it was ok.

Quote:

A very safe assumption about battery life; they told us that it uses an i5 and they told us its battery capacity.

So? That is hardly the end of the story.

Quote:

We're not talking about replacing notebooks, we're talking about moving units. And the iPad does appear to have actually done quite a lot of damage to the netbook market.

I said NOTEBOOK (as in regular notebooks and ultrabooks...NOT netbooks).

Yes and there is nothign to suggest that this or similar devices from OEMs won't move units.

One interesting aspect that hasn't been mentioned is Atom--that could prove to be very interesting this year or next.

All of this talk about productivity simply has not entered the realm of my monkeysphere, my meatworld. Which of course makes you wonder why Surface would be interesting to anyone. The answer of course is Enterprise and SMB. I don't think either of these products offers ANYTHING to the typical consumer over the iPad beyond a vague notion of compatibility with their existing windows environment.

Which is not to say they won't sell to consumers. They very well might. Their appeal to business might drive consumer sales just as it did for DOS and Windows before it. AND certainly, the Average or median consumer isn't all consumers.

The best pitch is--why have a laptop AND a tablet. Just buy the Windows 8 tablet at the same (or less) price as the ultrabook and get a lighter smaller ultrabook with a "built-in" tablet. Best of both worlds and saving teh cost of buying a tablet--plus the hassle of two devices.

You keep saying it. I think you are trying to convince yourself more than anything.

How is it worse than an ultrabook when it beats the ultrabook on two of its more critical metrics? You are picking a 3rd metric that is special use which isn't that big a deal and not that common and has been said would work find, AND doesn't have to be used as it can be used as a tablet in that situation!

Again, what pressing user problem is this solving? It saves you from having to carry two devices around? OK, were many people actually doing that to begin with?

Right--they don't do it because it is so much trouble--NOT because tehy wouldn't like to have that functionality. You assume they don't because they don't care, but that is a tail waging the dog mentality.

A very safe assumption about battery life; they told us that it uses an i5 and they told us its battery capacity.

So? That is hardly the end of the story.

It's good enough for a rough estimate in the absence of any magical breakthroughs, whose absence it's usually reasonable to provisionally assume via Occam's razor (and the fact that they didn't announce any)

There is also a class of consumer who spends 80% or 90% of their time on the aforementioned activities, but has a few (Windows desktop) applications they really need for the remaining 20% or 10%. Windows 8 (or RT if those applications happen to be Office, which I suspect is pretty common too) could be perfect for them.

For me, I wasn't even carrying around my iPad because it didn't do enough for me worth the effort of carrying it around.

This is the issue with this kind of hybrid product. If tablet functionality is so important to you so as to be worth carrying around two devices, are you really going to accept compromised tablet functionality to avoid the second device? If tablet functionality isn't important enough to you so as to be worth carrying around two devices, are you really going to accept compromised ultrabook functionality to get it?

Except it isn't that compromised.

People accept it for MP3 player, digital camera, GPS, etc. with a smartphone--why wouldn't they with these?

And seriously--you are GROSSLY overstating how it is "worse".

Quote:

That happens to be true vs. today's MacBook Air, but there's nothing inherent to Surface Pro's form factor that makes these long-term advantages. If Surface Pro can do those things, there's no technical barrier to next year's Air (or perhaps some other ultrabook shipping in the 6-7 month timeframe in which Surface Pro will ship) doing them as well.

But they aren't now and yet you are acting like they are. Why would anyone get an ultrabook instead of the pro? The ultrabook would be bigger, heavier, no touch screen, no tablet abilities at all really. The biggest ding you can find so far is that it is heavier than iPad. It is also a bigger screen which accounts for a good portoni of that weight difference.

Quote:

Why is an iPad with a keyboard accessory not a better choice at that point?

Because the keybard accessory isn't as nice. it weights more. It doesn't run a desktop OS (though i would say the RT model is iffy on that also). What woudl getting you an iPad do? The real question is why you wouldn't get an Android tablet. Better and cheaper than ipad.

The best pitch is--why have a laptop AND a tablet. Just buy the Windows 8 tablet at the same (or less) price as the ultrabook and get a lighter smaller ultrabook with a "built-in" tablet. Best of both worlds and saving teh cost of buying a tablet--plus the hassle of two devices.

That's hardly compelling though. What will make people want to buy this over an iPad3?

And that would be relevant if people were offering it as an alternative to those devices. But they're not.

Echohead2 wrote:

You could also say it isn't as good as the touch since it is more expensive, it has less storage than classic, etc. etc.

It's often not more expensive than the Touch as far as the consumer is concerned in markets with phone subsidies. It does have less storage capacity than a Classic, but the market had already demonstrated it had many users who didn't care much about huge storage capacity.

You're not going to be able to spin this away. The iPhone was obviously a better as a music player than traditional iPods for a large fraction of the market. The Surface Pro is not obviously better, as either a tablet or a notebook, than competing products.

Echohead2 wrote:

You could say the same thing about digital cameras and iPhone. the iPhone is a worse digital camera. or GPS, etc. etc. But it eliminates devices.

This is a somewhat more plausible argument, but I think it's still a little wrong. Surface Pro is worse at being a notebook than an actual notebook, because it's also trying to be a tablet. An iPhone isn't worse at being a phone because it's trying to be a GPS device.

Echohead2 wrote:

How is it worse than an ultrabook when it beats the ultrabook on two of its more critical metrics?

Which metrics?

Echohead2 wrote:

You are picking a 3rd metric that is special use which isn't that big a deal and not that common and has been said would work find, AND doesn't have to be used as it can be used as a tablet in that situation!

Text entry is a special use? I thought half the point of this thing was that it has better text entry than a tablet.

I haven't found where you explained why you think this is a compromised tablet. I scanned back through posts but I can't find it. I don't think it's compromised tablet functionality /shrug

Surface Pro? Weight and (almost certainly) battery life. I've said this at least half a dozen times.

Yes--you seem to feel like it is critically important for tablets, but totally irrelevant for ultrabooks. I find that interesting. Since it would be lighter, smaller, and likely LONGER batter life of an ultrabook.

Why? That's how much they charge for Office RT (assuming the price is $85 and Windows RT alone is about $35).

OEM PC Office is also around $85 to $135, depending on version, and iWork is $30 on iPad, so charging 2x as much seems reasonable.

An OEM bundle price, especially to support a new platform, is very different from retail on a competing platform (that runs the devaluing desktop Office).

I agree Microsoft could charge much more, but I don't think there's any point and don't see why Microsoft would neuter themselves by charging, say, $40 per product (so Excel, Word, PowerPoint) plus OneNote which currently costs $15 for the full version.

Given that OneNote is "freemium" with an unlock for $15, I think it makes more sense that Excel, Word, and PowerPoint have similar $20 prices to unlock. But, yes, they are free to charge anything they wish.