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Ikkyo... Well... One sensei of mine described the finishing movement of ikkyo omote as using the arm somewhat like a "push broom" - with uke's head being the sweeping part of the broom - elbow controlled and locked straight, used as a push-tool to get uke to the mat, head first.

At one seminar, the late Kawahara Yukio shihan showed us that 'in the old days' ikkyo could be finished off with uke pinned to the floor via the elbow, and the elbow dislocated with a strong lift of the wrist. No.. he didn't actually break uke's arm, but showed the possibility.

I've attended seminars presented by Kawahara (d), Masuda, Ichihashi (d), and Takase, all of whom have (had) slightly different versions of ikkyo, but in common to all was the sense that you don't hurt your training partners - in fact you try to protect them (Masuda is quite emphatic about that) - but that there are definite ways to hurt someone if you need to.

Actually, Aikido constitutes a smaller part of my martial arts background. What is a rather sad state of affairs is that I can't ask what may be obvious to advanced practitioners without inviting this sort of comment. I came to this forum to learn things.

Honestly, you'll learn more if you avoid the forum and spend the time on the mat with good teachers instead. Verbal discussions of body-based phenomena are always challenging, even more so when the subject matter is as subtle as the connections between uke and nage in ikkyo. (Or any other technique.)

Excellent. To flow from one thing to another, rather than trying to force it, is certainly a basic principle of Aikido. Talking about the case at hand (no pun intended), what might we go into if we can't get the armbar on?

Pretty much any other technique in aikido. Certainly nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo can all be seen as variations of ikkyo, but irimi nage is right there, too. Kotegaeshi and shihonage are a little more difficult -- they have sort of "reverse ikkyo" shapes -- but you'll get there pretty easily if uke tries to drop his elbow. Hip throws? There's a whole library of koshinage variations that take ikkyo as the starting point. And so on...

You might find it helpful to think of aikido techniques not as a library of "things to do to uke," but as a collection of kata for studying different aspects of body movement and aiki. Which is not to say that aikido doesn't have practical applications -- if you think someone like Gleason Sensei is an easy target you are a fool -- but "fighting" and physical self-defense are not its primary focus.

Ikkyo... Well... One sensei of mine described the finishing movement of ikkyo omote as using the arm somewhat like a "push broom" - with uke's head being the sweeping part of the broom - elbow controlled and locked straight, used as a push-tool to get uke to the mat, head first.

At one seminar, the late Kawahara Yukio shihan showed us that 'in the old days' ikkyo could be finished off with uke pinned to the floor via the elbow, and the elbow dislocated with a strong lift of the wrist. No.. he didn't actually break uke's arm, but showed the possibility.

I've attended seminars presented by Kawahara (d), Masuda, Ichihashi (d), and Takase, all of whom have (had) slightly different versions of ikkyo, but in common to all was the sense that you don't hurt your training partners - in fact you try to protect them (Masuda is quite emphatic about that) - but that there are definite ways to hurt someone if you need to.

In Yamashina, Kyoto, we practised a variation without pinning the arm to the floor but resting it on one's own thigh in a half-kneeling stance, bending and twisting uke's hand, and pushing their arm forward by one's whole body while the free hand was exerting pressure on the shoulder. Let me tell you this was a quick way to force uke into submission, otherwise the shoulder joint would have been dislocated. You sound like you may have practised a similar technique, except that you were pinning the elbow to the floor rather than the shoulder.

Again to stress my ignorance, I'm just offering whatever I can here. Please anyone correct me where I seem to be wrong. Also, my understanding of my own school's methods is somewhat limited, so please take whatever assertions I make with a grain of salt.

Quote:

Patrick Buchbinder wrote:

Let's start with the method to control uke's elbow, as there are different takes on how to go about doing that. Aikidoka will generally apply their sword hand to uke's elbow. But does this still work when we are already in a position with uke's arm right in front of us touching our body, with no room for our "unbendable arm"?

My understanding is that unbendable arm isn't a stiff-arm, so it doesn't necessarily have to be straight/at full extension, if that's what you mean with this question. If I'm remembering correctly, at my school we apply pressure to the medial epicondyle to help induce rotation to pitch the head/upper body forward. This doesn't so much lock the elbow as it does tip aite/uke forward off their base, allowing for the throw or pin. So in this sense, it doesn't feel like controlling the elbow so much as also controlling the elbow along with the arm and hips. However, if my control of uke's balance isn't very good, I'm using that tegatana at the elbow as a fulcrum while drawing uke's arm away from their body. In retrospect I might see where you're coming from with regard to arm bar now, since I'm trying to create enough outward extension of the arm to gain control of the hips...though not necessarily locking it; to then move through for a pin or throw.

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One common form is to push the elbow towards uke's head first. I have only seen that in Aikido so far. What's the merit of doing that? Surely, it's a way to break uke's balance. In Aikido Toho Iai it is said however that this method has no relation to sword fighting and actually endangers tori as there would be plenty of opportunity for uke to hit tori meanwhile.

My limited understanding is that once you have sufficient control of the arm to lift and push the elbow toward uke's head, you're ideally floating part of the hip, which diminishes uke's power for one thing, but also controlling the upper spine by pressing the arm/elbow against it. If it's not "clean," uke can rotate and enter with the free arm, but if you have control of the spine and hips, they're bound in place more or less. One of my personal checks for practicing ikkyo is to ask my partner if he or she can touch me with their other arm. They usually can make the motion, but because I have the initiative, I can usually make a slight ushiro/backward movement creating a better "corner" that they have to move around to get me, or, slightly worse case scenario, drop the "ikkyo-ed" arm into the oncoming "tag," using it as a shield.
Of course, all much easier said than done, but this is my experience, limited though it may be.

It is not that you ask the question, it is that you are claiming ignorance while assuming experiential authority.

You state you have studied with various and sundry senseis (as well as other arts), yet when you discuss sensei Gleason’s video you do not seem to understand the simple context of teaching a principle in a class. He is working on a level of body mechanics, the value of which, you do not seem to perceive or understand. The irony of claiming Bill Gleason not effective is kind of saying Keith Richards can’t jam.

“he neglects controlling his uke properly”…

Since he is demonstrating redirecting incoming force and kuzushi on contact, he is dispensing with the rest of the control and takedown, and focusing on that element of the pedagogy; with all your martial experience is that not clear to you? Have you not seen this in all your dojo’s, both aikido and other arts? So when you make statements like this we tend to lump you into the “my monkey claw of death” beats your “spleen exploding pinky strike” level of martial awareness.

“Not applying a proper arm bar with ikkyo belongs into that category”

Ikkyo is not an arm bar, certainly not an arm bar as is taught in either Tang Soo Do, Shaolin Kempo or a handful of Krav Maga classes. FYI gokkyu (as taught in our flavor of Aikido) is much closer to the aforementioned arm bars, but still not the same. So telling me my car is not a pickup truck and stating that lack of a tailgate renders my car ineffective at moving people is vaguely annoying.

In principle we have been taught to lock the wrist, to lock the elbow to move the shoulder to control the center. Advanced application is often a dynamic contact lock to use uke’s own momentum and tension/tensegrity as part of the lock (rather than having to grab and twist). The key to making it effective is the initial kuzushi which breaks uke’s structure/balance and stops further attack by destabilizing their base, even if only momentarily; from any angle, from any attack.

“His aim here seems to be different from mine, which is to neutralize the threat that the opponent
poses as quickly and effectively as possible.”

Unbalancing your opponent leaves you with a world of options. You seem to have the illusion that in the real world your techniques will work perfectly the first time and undoubtedly render your opponent powerless in the blink of an eye. Since combat is all about movement, initiative, and spontaneous adaptation, understanding movement and flow at an autonomous level allows one to shift to solution B, C, and D…when your first action didn’t go quite as expected (for whatever reason). So the kotogaishe is a “oh and while you are here you have many options available including this”, this is not kata.

I suppose I am somewhat at fault for criticizing technique centrism in the techniques sub forum…mea culpa. But technique is only the starting point in this art. Again it is not that you asked these questions, it is that, rather clumsily, you criticized the orchestra rehearing stanzas 35 and 36 for not finishing the symphony. That does not require any significantly advanced knowledge to discern, merely sometime on the matt in any normal dojo.

Keep asking questions, but I do suggest that you move off of technique as your focus and start working to understand the underlying principles and make them part of your everyday movement; this is the path to effectivity.

Keep asking questions, but I do suggest that you move off of technique as your focus and start working to understand the underlying principles and make them part of your everyday movement; this is the path to effectivity.

What is the purpose of a "Techniques" forum, though, if not to address the forms the principles create?

In Yamashina, Kyoto, we practised a variation without pinning the arm to the floor but resting it on one's own thigh in a half-kneeling stance, bending and twisting uke's hand, and pushing their arm forward by one's whole body while the free hand was exerting pressure on the shoulder. Let me tell you this was a quick way to force uke into submission, otherwise the shoulder joint would have been dislocated. You sound like you may have practised a similar technique, except that you were pinning the elbow to the floor rather than the shoulder.

Be careful about thinking of that type of pin - any pin in Aikido really - as a submission pin. The thing that is IMO the original technique is only meant to provide nage with a moment during which he or she can deploy a weapon to finish uke.

Play around with someone who trains Systema frequently and you will be aghast at how pins that only hold one arm down can be escaped from. Submission requires control of more of the body.

There are so many different assumptions behind the views expressed here that finding any common ground is next to impossible. I think there are various reasons for this, but it would cause too much thread drift to examine them here.

Traditional terms of art are mostly used as idiosyncratic totemic labels of what each writer already thinks about a topic. So, these conceptual terms in their typical usage cannot really form the basis for clear discussion about what we ought to know and ought to think about the actual subject they purport to describe. The collapse into meaningless contests of perception and authority ensues -- a tiresome game with little resolution.

The resistance to grounding discussions in objective biology and mechanics seems born of equal parts romanticism, exoticism and possibly obscurantism. IHTBF is fine -- but language about real things at high levels ought to denote transferable concepts describing what is felt and done. Our language better serve us that way than just as verbal symbols for the team jerseys.

For this reason, I ground my points about the basic movements of ikkyo in the sword awase, which are fairly objective, plainly demonstrable and easily related to the empty-handed waza. Did it last night for our class, in fact. Added a related kuzushi exercise. Good class.

I was watching this a bit last night, Jon, and I am curious what you think is ikkyo about this. There are a couple of things I am curious about:

- on the face of it, this would seem to be a cycling exchange of ikkyos that fail.
- this lacks the rising and falling type of movement pattern, I think. The spiraling seems to be mostly horizontal.

Ellis's video was also rather horizontal, though I think the up part happens before contact with uke. What I recall him saying about the general movement patterns in Aikido was that ikkyo was rising and falling.

And yes, I have heard about ikkyo curves around the hips but I am not sure I am willing to call those "ikkyo curves". I guess I basically feel like ikkyo leads with rising and has lateral movement as a secondary thing (maybe in Billspeak I could say I feel the water dragon is more important than the fire dragon in ikkyo.)

What is the purpose of a "Techniques" forum, though, if not to address the forms the principles create?

Well I did admit to that in the post above, once again oops. However, in the end, reliance on technique alone is one of the reasons we constantly get the "effectiveness" question. The overarching focus on an ever expanding menu of techniques, in the absence of kuzushi and body skills, is why sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Without turning this into another long post, perhaps it is time we stop divorcing kuzushi and body skills from the technique. I expect the separation of the two has mostly to do with "you have to learn the gross movements first" approach to learning (not unreasonable at all), and the body skills take longer, are harder to learn, and not as much fun.

More directly I consider kuzushi to be fundamentally part of the technique, but often it is not taught that way. How many times have you stood there as uke with nage cranking on your wrist while you are balanced and grounded (I am talking yudansha not just kyus).

From personal experience I did not start to become "effective" until I shifted my focus from technique to kuzushi. Once that happened, uke was compromised and whatever technique(s) that was appropriate seemed to present itself for the taking, no tactical thought required.

But enough of that, as I am causing thread drift I will respectfully bow out.

My limited understanding is that once you have sufficient control of the arm to lift and push the elbow toward uke's head, you're ideally floating part of the hip, which diminishes uke's power for one thing, but also controlling the upper spine by pressing the arm/elbow against it. If it's not "clean," uke can rotate and enter with the free arm, but if you have control of the spine and hips, they're bound in place more or less. One of my personal checks for practicing ikkyo is to ask my partner if he or she can touch me with their other arm. They usually can make the motion, but because I have the initiative, I can usually make a slight ushiro/backward movement creating a better "corner" that they have to move around to get me, or, slightly worse case scenario, drop the "ikkyo-ed" arm into the oncoming "tag," using it as a shield.

Matthew, might want to think of uke throwing back fist and/or kick to your ribs or your leading knee. and extreme from uke would be scissor kicks. uke can sacrifice his/her arm to get you.

- on the face of it, this would seem to be a cycling exchange of ikkyos that fail.
- this lacks the rising and falling type of movement pattern, I think. The spiraling seems to be mostly horizontal.

The push-hand model isn't the same as the aikido nage-uke model. the push-hand model assumes that the other person has similar skill and tries to get you as you try to get him. if another person applies ikkyo on you, it's your part of the learning to neutralize it and return the favor. we don't do no stinking ukemi!

as far as the rising and failing go, didn't you see their spleens and kidneys bouncing up and down doing the river dance? you need to look harder. What is one of Ikeda sensei favorite saying, "move your inside"?

Quote:

And yes, I have heard about ikkyo curves around the hips but I am not sure I am willing to call those "ikkyo curves". I guess I basically feel like ikkyo leads with rising and has lateral movement as a secondary thing (maybe in Billspeak I could say I feel the water dragon is more important than the fire dragon in ikkyo.)

i don't call "around the hips" the ikkyo curve either, especially around the missus, unless i want a can of whoopass. and please, no water dragon around the hips region.

Matthew, might want to think of uke throwing back fist and/or kick to your ribs or your leading knee. and extreme from uke would be scissor kicks. uke can sacrifice his/her arm to get you.

Good points! Thank you, Phi!

Quote:

Hilary wrote:

But enough of that, as I am causing thread drift I will respectfully bow out.

Well, I've certainly "helped" in adding to it. I deeply agree with you about not divorcing kuzushi/body skills from the techniques. I don't know much, but I do believe they're at the heart of the matter, so I can see why it would be important to reinforce their role.
Take care,
Matt

I can tell that some of you find my approach to this thread rather confusing, and obviously some misunderstandings have occurred. It might help if I tell you something about where I come from and what my aims are. I have practised various martial arts over the last few decades. My training in Aikido was fairly intense, but even though I greatly enjoyed it, it didn't last very long. It took place in different schools, both in Japan and in Switzerland. I eventually had to stop it, due to changing circumstances. That happened around 25 years ago.

I am currently training two other martial arts, one of which requires a degree of individual creativity. So, among other things, I am integrating some of the basic Aikido I once learned into my practice. In this context, I am trying to clarify, extend and enhance certain things.

It is possible that one day I will take up Aikido per say again, but that would probably mean cutting down on the other arts I am involved with. That's not where I am right now.

I sometimes question what martial artists (including myself!) are doing, but this is not meant to ridicule any practitioners, and I am sorry if that is the impression some of you have got. What I am hoping for here is a comparative technical discussion that some of you might take something away from as well. Several things that I heard so far gave me food for thought, and I appreciate all of you sharing your knowledge and views, whether I agree with them or not.

Well, the thread is labeled divergent approaches. There are many different ways, and not really in conflict with each other. "Many right ways, just many, many wrong ways." Defining Ikkajo historically is also not as clear cut as "arm bar."

Effectiveness is not really a useful discussion when we cannot even see each other.

...Just realized this could also mean no room for our arm at all: I would guess to use the torso to walk into the place where the tegatana would be.

Yup. I've been on the receiving end of some quite effective ikkyos where the contact with my elbow was my partner's torso or upper thigh. There are also some fun variations involving a knee to the chest or a kick in the face with the inside leg. The ikkyo-to-koshinage variations have lots of atemi with the free ("elbow") hand to help make space to get the hips in.

All of which are sort of pointless to discuss without video or hands-on demonstrations, but so it goes.

What is the purpose of a "Techniques" forum, though, if not to address the forms the principles create?

Hello Matthew,

Well I suppose a Technique forum exists partly because Jun wants to run a comprehensive forum. However, it does not follow that discussions about techniques in such a forum are beneficial, or even useful.

Having read through the forum, I can see and acknowledge that some of the variations that posters have mentioned are, yes, all 1kyou. If you think of the waza as a set of stages from before the initial contact till after the final pin, there are so many ways of getting from the beginning to the end. I have had a succession of teachers in the years I have been training, including a good few years with Gleason's own teacher, and I know all the variations discussed. I also have my own preferred way of executing the waza. But I think you can see this only in the dojo, with partners or opponents who do, or do not, cooperate.

Well I suppose a Technique forum exists partly because Jun wants to run a comprehensive forum. However, it does not follow that discussions about techniques in such a forum are beneficial, or even useful.

Having read through the forum, I can see and acknowledge that some of the variations that posters have mentioned are, yes, all 1kyou. If you think of the waza as a set of stages from before the initial contact till after the final pin, there are so many ways of getting from the beginning to the end. I have had a succession of teachers in the years I have been training, including a good few years with Gleason's own teacher, and I know all the variations discussed. I also have my own preferred way of executing the waza. But I think you can see this only in the dojo, with partners or opponents who do, or do not, cooperate.

Hi Prof. Goldsbury,
Thank you for the comments! I do not think it necessarily follows that discussion about technique is useful, but I'm open to the idea that discussion can inspire attention to different aspects while doing actual practice later (hopefully not in a way that interrupts what one's teacher is trying to convey). I think the best anyone can do is try to describe their own experiences and points of focus and hope it somehow sparks a useful idea in someone else...I feel like it might be good to have rules similar to the IHTBF column applied to something as subjective and varied as techniques.
Take care,
Matthew

Hi Prof. Goldsbury,
Thank you for the comments! I do not think it necessarily follows that discussion about technique is useful, but I'm open to the idea that discussion can inspire attention to different aspects while doing actual practice later (hopefully not in a way that interrupts what one's teacher is trying to convey). I think the best anyone can do is try to describe their own experiences and points of focus and hope it somehow sparks a useful idea in someone else...I feel like it might be good to have rules similar to the IHTBF column applied to something as subjective and varied as techniques.
Take care,
Matthew

Hello Matthew,

Sure, but I have not seen your own teacher, or Mr Gleason, or Mr Tissier coming on here to explain their waza. To me, this speaks volumes.

I was watching this a bit last night, Jon, and I am curious what you think is ikkyo about this. There are a couple of things I am curious about:

- on the face of it, this would seem to be a cycling exchange of ikkyos that fail.
- this lacks the rising and falling type of movement pattern, I think. The spiraling seems to be mostly horizontal.

Ellis's video was also rather horizontal, though I think the up part happens before contact with uke. What I recall him saying about the general movement patterns in Aikido was that ikkyo was rising and falling.

And yes, I have heard about ikkyo curves around the hips but I am not sure I am willing to call those "ikkyo curves". I guess I basically feel like ikkyo leads with rising and has lateral movement as a secondary thing (maybe in Billspeak I could say I feel the water dragon is more important than the fire dragon in ikkyo.)

Phi's touched on a couple of the points I would raise, but here are my thoughts:
1. This is a push-hands exercise, so you're not going to see the desire to apply kansetsu waza in the same way we do; although, the end of the video shows what could have been happening the whole time. From this perspective, yes, you are seeing a model where both partners are actually trying to apply the arm control, with one partner succeeding, the other defending/countering.
2. I can't speak for the Chinese arts. Having done the exercise, I would say that there is vertical force, both up and down. Because the movement is internal, it is very difficult to see - your best glimpse is around 1:05 when that power directs down.
3. There is a dialog that all forces should be represented within you. This does not necessarily require a partner, nor does it need to be physically demonstrated. Spiral movement should have three axial forces (6 directions). That is a different movement that the plane on which the spiral moves. Think gyroscope spinning, but also moving on a flat surface - 2 distinct "movements".

Also, a core mechanic in this video is that the arm control is crossing the centerline and breaking the elbow/back connection. Chicken-winging, as it were. The aikido shape tends to break the elbow/back connection with a vertical move, but it can be broke down in a variety of ways. The video Demetrio posted demonstrated the same lateral power line break and the subsequent video I posted also has a lateral power line break. Altough, we often use the lateral line break with our entering moves like irrimi nage or irrimi tenkan movements.

Summing up (for me), this shape has similar core mechanics to ikkyo, it controls the body (regardless of the arm) and it includes arm control. They are completely wearing the wrong type of pajamas, though...
FWIW