Don't jess... just don't... if he's gonna be that dumb it's not worth the conversation.

Is this how you usually debate?

I'm assuming you are a politician in real life.

You said locks don't bring the exact utility a spriest brings (kind of obvious really, no class brings the exact utility of another class), so I compared it to the utility a lock does bring.

Would prefer to get a reply other than the standard "hurr ur dumb" ty.

This thread just looks like a mock up of random classes complaining and warlocks defending their obvious superior current state in the game (which Blizzard have already stated they are aware of) with arguments about how they also don't bring the utility of some of the under-performing classes

You said locks don't bring the exact utility a spriest brings (kind of obvious really, no class brings the exact utility of another class), so I compared it to the utility a lock does bring.

Would prefer to get a reply other than the standard "hurr ur dumb" ty.

This thread just looks like a mock up of random classes complaining and warlocks defending their obvious superior current state in the game (which Blizzard have already stated they are aware of) with arguments about how they also don't bring the utility of some of the under-performing classes

Then answer my post instead of his where I point out SPriests do bring great utility and decent damage on a lot of the encounters? Only place you could claim they under perform is Iron Juggernaut and Malkorok where their utility is at it's strongest.

You said locks don't bring the exact utility a spriest brings (kind of obvious really, no class brings the exact utility of another class), so I compared it to the utility a lock does bring.

Would prefer to get a reply other than the standard "hurr ur dumb" ty.

This thread just looks like a mock up of random classes complaining and warlocks defending their obvious superior current state in the game (which Blizzard have already stated they are aware of) with arguments about how they also don't bring the utility of some of the under-performing classes

Is that superiority or saturation? Locks are represented much better this xpac than they've been in the past so I think that's working to skew people's perceptions a bit.

Locks are great damage yes, but the nerf to snapshotting will gut a lot of that damage for Aff/Demo. Even w/o snapshotting, Locks do about the same damage as mages, cats, (good) rogues, etc. You know, the usual suspects.

Is that superiority or saturation? Locks are represented much better this xpac than they've been in the past so I think that's working to skew people's perceptions a bit.

Locks are great damage yes, but the nerf to snapshotting will gut a lot of that damage for Aff/Demo. Even w/o snapshotting, Locks do about the same damage as mages, cats, (good) rogues, etc. You know, the usual suspects.

It's almost coincidence that locks are the top damage dealers on nearly every single boss in the tier and they suddenly become a lot more represented.

And I hope you weren't trying to say that locks aren't overpowered, just over-represented, which is why people complain about them, considering there's a plethora of information to prove the opposite.

Originally Posted by Jessicka

Then answer my post instead of his where I point out SPriests do bring great utility and decent damage on a lot of the encounters? Only place you could claim they under perform is Iron Juggernaut and Malkorok where their utility is at it's strongest.

I never said SPriests don't bring great raid utility? They were being compared against warlocks, and I said comparably; a lock brings more to a raid (which they do).

It's almost coincidence that locks are the top damage dealers on nearly every single boss in the tier and they suddenly become a lot more represented.

And I hope you weren't trying to say that locks aren't overpowered, just over-represented, which is why people complain about them, considering there's a plethora of information to prove the opposite.

The data I've seen shows Warlocks to be right in the middle of the pack in terms of representation, alongside Hunters. Wouldn't regard that as being over-represented, although it is a significant increase on last expansion. Bear in mind though that the class had a massive overhaul at the start of this expansion, that has brought players in who previously left the class and who just wanted to see what the fuss is about. And I don't think it's an accident Warlocks have been at the top end of the power curve either; I think it's been quite deliberate in order to keep those in who have come in. How many would have walked away if they found the class thoroughly mediocre? How then would all the time investment in developing the rework have been regarded?

I never said SPriests don't bring great raid utility? They were being compared against warlocks, and I said comparably; a lock brings more to a raid (which they do).

They bring very different utility, they're actually very complementary classes and I don't think there's a situation where I'd actually want to pick between the two.

The data I've seen shows Warlocks to be right in the middle of the pack in terms of representation, alongside Hunters. Wouldn't regard that as being over-represented, although it is a significant increase on last expansion. Bear in mind though that the class had a massive overhaul at the start of this expansion, that has brought players in who previously left the class and who just wanted to see what the fuss is about. And I don't think it's an accident Warlocks have been at the top end of the power curve either; I think it's been quite deliberate in order to keep those in who have come in. How many would have walked away if they found the class thoroughly mediocre? How then would all the time investment in developing the rework have been regarded?

They bring very different utility, they're actually very complementary classes and I don't think there's a situation where I'd actually want to pick between the two.

I didn't say they were over-represented? It was a between-the-lines response from the poster above me. In fact if you look at what I said, you will see I'm trying to say locks are under-represented (still).

I do agree that locks being at their current state was intentional though; much like warriors in PvP. I'd imagine it's an obvious/un-obvious business model to attract people to play classes that were being underplayed to keep interest in the game.

Though in most situations, if a raid leader had to pick between a SPriest or a Lock, in most cases it would be a lock.

Though in most situations, if a raid leader had to pick between a SPriest or a Lock, in most cases it would be a lock.

Having been a raid leader, I've often been in the position where I wanted to drop myself to get a SPriest in. Raid cooldowns are incredibly valuable, especially in 10s that most people raid. In 25s, there's plenty of others to drop ahead of either.

No, if you go through my history you'll see I have plenty of long seemingly pointless debates all the time, but when someones initial response is automatically in such a smart ass tone while also being one of the dumbest things I've ever read then that's the response they're gonna get.

If you're gonna come at me with a LOLJK while apparently completely missing the point of that post and not paying attention to why I made it in response to whatever previous post then no I don't feel you're worth the conversation.

I think the real power of warlocks this expansion has been our secondary resource spending has matched up well with the legendary meta/RPPM power spikes. IE spend when you proc and you do well. This is a bigger swing in power than most classes thus they ride the proc power wave less far. At least for skilled players...ie weak auras, affdots (or equivalent), etc vs just the button mashing LFR guy. So while we are balanced in some ways the potential for locks is higher this expansion. How much that translates into success post item squish, WoD mechanics, and with WoD fights is way too nebulous to guess at.

I would heavily disagree with this PvE-wise; you can only argue your position for demonology. Warlocks have great raid utility, the highest DPS in the game by far (as Destruction/Affliction), and are more or less mandatory in raids; they are objectively the best DPS class (in 5.3 they faced competition from mages, but mages are inferior to warlocks in just about every way now).

Dem mages and spriests be crying:,(
But the dot snapshotting removal is going to be a huge blow for us and most dot specs.
Perhaps removing soulwell.

I could deal with soulwells or gateways going away for WoD if it means our specs play well. Locks themselves can probably keep the healthstone the same way mages do mana gems but raid wide I could see the logic for taking them away if they are streamlining the raid utility buff/debuff system. Gateway has been a balance nightmare in every incarnation and still is buggy. If it went away it would also make some encounter mechanics more meaningful thus freeing up "mythic" raid design more.

Dot snapshot removal is fine...they just need to rebalance things which means actually buffing affliction most likely since it can't make its money rolling uber (300-500%) dots anymore. Maybe make shards/haunt more powerful since they feel to be nearly full uptime atm? I'd rather see demo be more about doing the right spell at the right time, aka DF use, than going for the "perfect storm" buffed doom. Again may mean buffs for other areas (rebuffing imps, demons, etc).

Why would they take away Healthstones when the reason for going 20 man is to balance encounters of having all classes? Just make Managems into raid version too, giving any resource back to people (mana, rp, energy etc).

Sure, having superior dps at the cost of having no raid utility, that's the role I could play. But you can't expect being best dps with how nerfs/buffs work in Blizz. Right now locks have it all, utlity, damage on single/multi/aoe/burst, lower damage taken. Take away utility, and assume Blizz actually balance dps diffrently so that locks are middle pack this time (*cough* DS Spriest > all 3 wl *cough*) and you are looking at dead weight class. Lower damage taken can't really be thing raids bring you for, it's ability to cheese mechanics which we can only sometimes bruteforce with ridiculous effective health, but never avoid like mages, hunters, rogues etc.

Although I really wouldn't mind Gateway going away, I'm tired to be balanced around now TWO propositioned things to have any chance in wPvP, and having that crap leash you on encounters or it will disappear. It should be improved Demonic Circle talent in first place rather than addition.

the only conceivable way to balance destro is to lower the coefficient of fire and brimstone as their single target dps is just fine in the sense that it is about equal to our other specs but with that said, destro and afflic have had very apparent niches this tier, demo doesnt as it is more of a jack of all trades, master of none kind of spec and lets be fair, destro being good this tier makes a lot of sense, afflic was good first tier, demo was good 2nd tier and destro is good this tier with our other specs being very viable as well, meaning all our specs have had their time in the sun as it should be, i dont want to be like mages with only 1 spec.

and honestly, im not too fussed about loosing snapshotting as blizz have already said that we will be balanced around and compensated for it, the only question that remains is if it is going to be enough balancing/compensation to make up for it and only time will answer that question.

Oh wait...haste scaling is a problem. Change up backdraft to boost a different stat. I wouldn't call that a nerf though.

That won't be a problem without the Meta gem to be honest, it likes other stats well enough - and there will be others to choose from - so without reforging there won't be a temptation to pick up Haste gear just to reforge out of it.

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Originally Posted by almara2512

demo doesnt as it is more of a jack of all trades, master of none kind of spec