I think not, too. The cynic in me sees the excommunication process as more of a control issue. There is, too, an additional dimension for Mormon excommunication as opposed to other churches. If, for instance, a person is exed from the Methodist Church (I don't really know if Methodist's do exing) his separation is only from that particular body and is not like having one's name stricken from the "lamb's book of life" which is really what Mormon Church excommunication essentially does within that belief system. It's an interesting issue since repentance is talked about a lot by Mormons as part of the entry process but apparently there is only repentance up to a point for some "sins". It does, to me, point up a major issue of control over church rule breakers who are ceremonial dumped as if repentance is null and void without the authoritarian issue of exing being pronounced over them. "We're going to kick you out and make you a pariah," hardly seems to demonstrate Christ-like love any way you look at it.

If I remember correctly Christ demonstrated how Church Leaders should handle the discipline of sinners when he was confronted with the women caught in adultery. Let he who is without sin and all that...

_________________“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

Your reference creates a much more compassionate image and certainly an image of God as one who meets us where we are in our failings rather than the judgemental God of Mormonism who demands personal worthiness and respects nothing short of that.

You can't get away from me, Albion, and you can't get away with not being worthy! "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Jesus Christ

Why didn't Christ convene a court of love for the adulterous and let fifteen of the local men decide her fate? He didn't because he isn't a Mormon!

_________________“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

Unlike Mormons, gdemetz, I make no claim to any kind of "worthiness". My only claim and hope is the righteousness imputed to me from Christ by God's grace. Like you, gdemetz, I can do nothing to impress a holy God who sees all my good works as "filthy rags". I am a sinner saved by grace but made righteous only by his grace through faith: "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:22 NIV. You can go through all the worthiness hoops you want but it will be to no avail until you surrender yourself to the grace of God alone through faith. Works, ritual etc. follow faith, they don't create it. To repeat an old quote: " A dog doesn't bark to become a dog, it barks because it is a dog".

Albion, it's the same old story! I give you quotes from the Bible, and even Christ's own statements, and you give me evangelical hogwash! Christ gave a commandment; "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect." If you read the last part of the Book of Revelation, it tells how no unclean thing can enter in, no liar, whoremonger, etc." We don't have to achieve total perfection in this life, and the grace of Christ is necessary for us all. However, as I stated before, Christ did not say that all those who make an alter call will be saved; that's evangelical hogwash! He stated very plainly and clearly, and on more than one occasion, that "IF THOU WILT ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS"!!! Now, you can try to twist the scriptures and evangelicalize them all you want, but you can not change them, and they will stand as a witness against you at the judgement bar of Christ!!!

Albion, it's the same old story! I give you quotes from the Bible, and even Christ's own statements, and you give me evangelical hogwash! Christ gave a commandment; "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect." If you read the last part of the Book of Revelation, it tells how no unclean thing can enter in, no liar, whoremonger, etc." We don't have to achieve total perfection in this life, and the grace of Christ is necessary for us all. However, as I stated before, Christ did not say that all those who make an alter call will be saved; that's evangelical hogwash! He stated very plainly and clearly, and on more than one occasion, that "IF THOU WILT ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS"!!! Now, you can try to twist the scriptures and evangelicalize them all you want, but you can not change them, and they will stand as a witness against you at the judgement bar of Christ!!!

How do you know that the quotes you use from the Bible aren't the bits that are incorrectly translated?

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

_________________“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

So the bit about the flood passes muster with your common sense does it?

_________________“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

I believe this is called 'confirmation bias'.But at least we now know you are an apostate who values his own opinion above that of the Prophet.

_________________“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

Once again, gdemetz, you are guilty of mischaracterizing my statements...if I didn't believe you were at least sincere in you mistaken beliefs I might think you were deliberately lying. The believer is made righteousness by faith in Christ. His righteousness is imputed to believers through their faith in him. In and of himself the believer has no righteousness whatsoever but in placing his/her faith in Christ they are presented before God in a righteousness, "borrowed if you will, from Christ. That is why Jesus died on the cross. Is it too much that you would do a serious reading of Romans for what it says rather than what you have been told it says?

gdemetz contradicts himself. On the one hand he takes me to task for asserting the Biblical truth that our works are but "filthy rags" and that we have no worthiness of our own to commend us to God, uses the "be ye therefore perfect" quote as evidence for his righteousness, and then says such perfection cannot be achieved in this life. I have news for you, gedemtz, no human can ever be perfect except in a perfected imputed to him through Christ. There was only one person who kept the whole law, both in practice and in spirit, and that was Jesus. You haven't convinced me yet that you will ever attain to that level thnrough your own effort.

That's really dumb again, Albion, but I have come to expect that from evangelicals like you. Do you really think Christ would give a commandment for someone to be perfect if there was no chance for him to be perfect?!? Christ atonement was to give the righteous who are sincerely following His commandments, but still make mistakes, a ransom! It is not for those who reject Him and reject His teachings! "For if we sin willfully after that we have received knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS." Remember Christ's own words:

"IF THOU WILT ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS"!!!!!!!

However, in the Papa Joe's Evangelical Version it reads:

"If ya'all want life eternal, jes come up for this here altar call and mek yur perfession of faith."

How dumb! FrankTalk was right! I have no disagreement with the prophet except in your mind!

So who's opinion do you follow - yours or the Prophet's?

The Prophet has sanctioned that all members be taught that the fall of Adam was circa 4,000 BCE - do you agree with the Prophet on that?

_________________“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

Use your brain, Albion! Christ did not come to save people in their sins! He came to save them from their sins! Christ can't keep the commandments for us! This is something we must do for ourselves! So, my advise to you is to quit making excuses, and just do it!!!