Ok.. I see all these folks on the East Coast bragging about their burnt crust pizza. Here, and I speak as a former Pizza Shop worker in the Midwest, a burnt crust could get you shot! Actually if you over brown them around here you're getting returns. May be a regional deal, but honestly, these burnt crusts are not for me either..

We know plenty of fellow Easterners that most definitely do not enjoy their pizza crust burnt. But there are many (including us) that love it burnt. In our experience, the burnt crust crowd tends to be found more often among those that consider themselves especially devoted pizza fans, while they are rarely found among the more casual pizza people. We're not trying to say that a taste for burnt pizza is some sort of badge of pizza connoisseurship - the pattern just seems to tend in that direction for some reason.

and coal is one of the reasons sally's and pepe's in new haven taste so good- love those carcinogens! extra well done pies around here! a friend of mine from my youth who used to work at sally's always said that the best pie of the night was the last pie of the night- all the shmutz and burnt everything would still be on the floor of the brick ovens (which by the way are 100 or so years old in the case of sally's and pepe's the spot- they were both baker's bread ovens before pizza oven's) and go right onto the burnt crust of your pie. when you ate a great pie at sally's you'd go through tons of those little napkins wiping the black crusted burnt crispies and crusties off those masterful pies... it's like a great steak- the char on the crust is crucial... enjoy fb

as one who has been to the best pizza joints in joisey,I can tell ya that if heavily burnt crusts were served there someone might end up sleepin wid da fishes....on the other hand maybe burning the crusts would improve the pitiful specimens that pass for pizza in californy

I will concede that the photo seems too burned, yet if you look at the top corner, you will see a non-charred section. I am willing to bet that the bottom is not as dark as the crust. This is where the art of pizza making comes in. Unlike other ovens, with coal @700 degrees, you need to treat it as an artisan would. The fact that one side seems unlike the other demonstrates that these are not ovens that you walk away from.

As for the smoke and cancerous fumes, I believe that the coal is underneath the floor of the ovens and not directly near the pies. I have looked and never have seen any flames evident.

After a week blitzing through Neapolitan pizzas I was wondering about that one yesterday. I would say that particular pizza may have been too burnt but to achieve a decent crust in a wood or coal fired oven you will need some dark brown charred spots.

In my opinion the above pizza has a burned crust. Even with high temp ovens (some in Naples cook a pie in 60 seconds), what you are looking for is some dark spots or leoparding; not solid blackness all around the edge. Here's a pic taken from pizzamaking.com that shows a home cooked pie with a pretty good example of leoparding. pb

"New York Pizza" - the kind that folds, reaches its apotheosis in Manhattan. It is baked in conventional electric or gas ovens at 500 degrees or so. It is never "burned". It's almost impossible to find a "bad slice" in a small Manhattan pizza shop (note that this excludes Sbarro's, Pizza Hut, etc.).

"Brick oven Pizza" - whether wood or coal-fired - doesn't fold. Even though its apotheosis is also in the City: http://www.patsyspizzeriany.com/, it is not "NY Pizza". If it must be associated with a city, the apt city would be Naples.

These ovens which cook the pie at temps of 700 - 1000 degrees have led to great "gourmet" pies I've enjoyed all over the country: Grimaldi's in Scottsdale, Faccia Luna in State College, Pizza Paradiso and 2 Amy's in DC, and Coal Vines and Olivella's here in Dallas. Here's a review of one of these which reveals both the technique (and marketing psychology - "my oven is hotter than yours") behind this delightful trend.

To me, burning the pizza as far as it is shown is a waste of good crust. I love the crust on a pizza. A little charring is okay but I would like to be able to eat the crust without it tasting like a burnt piece of toast.

I can achieve the leoparding as porkbeats describes it in my electric 550 degree oven. The bottom of the crust will leopard as well with the hot spots of the stone and the bubbling action of the crust. It makes for great pizza.

The boutique, rustica, Neapolitan style pizza is an art in achieving taste. I just did a report on Pizza Paradios and 2 Amys in Washington DC in this forum. Their ingredients were similar and limited and not heavy on the meats other than salami and procuitto.

Ok.. I see all these folks on the East Coast bragging about their burnt crust pizza. Here, and I speak as a former Pizza Shop worker in the Midwest, a burnt crust could get you shot! Actually if you over brown them around here you're getting returns. May be a regional deal, but honestly, these burnt crusts are not for me either..

I think burnt pizza works on a true Napolitan brick oven-style pizza. It is an acquired taste, like the garlickly taste of kosher-style hot dogs. I also like hearth-baked Italian bread that is very brown, almost to the point of being burned.

These ovens which cook the pie at temps of 700 - 1000 degrees have led to great "gourmet" pies I've enjoyed all over the country

1000 degrees??? Do they really get that hot? That sounds like it would scorch and melt anything that came within 50 feet of the oven, including the pizza, the peel, and the arms of the chef!

[url='http://video.google.it/videoplay?docid=3527298901888342949&q=pizzafest']Here's[/url] an excellent quality Italian video that shows a pizza being cooked in under a minute. It doesn't indicate the temp, but I'll bet it's at least 1000 degrees.

Why not take a ROADTRIP and check it out for yourself.I noticed the forums have been up for almost 5 years now and we haven't gotten a trip report from you yet???

To be fair, not everyone has as much liberty to travel as others. You (WJ) have a great deal of liberty, clearly, which is a good thing. I have very little, which can suck at times :-) Some have none at all. That doesn't mean folks haven't travelled in the past, or that they don't have relevant info to convey about their own food-related experiences or experiences that others have related to them.

Even then, no matter how much or how little one travels, there is no requirement here that people post trip reports. I enjoy it (albeit I'd like it much more if one could post approved pics without a membership fee) but not everyone likes to write so much. *shrug* To each their own.

That said -- plain and simple, most folks outside NYC/New Haven and thereabouts don't seem to prefer much if any char on pizza. I like some charring (tho I'm not sure I'd like as much char as is shown in the pic) but I'm clearly in the minority.

Wht not take a ROADTRIP and check it out for yourself.I noticed the forums have been up for almost 5 years now and we haven't gotten a trip report from you yet???

Ditto to what TJ said. I travel now and then, but it's normally a one day deal. I have tried places mentioned here, and reported back with my opinions of such, if that counts as a trip report... Either way, a burnt crust pizza shop would not be one of my stops.

I do love the burnt crust, although I've never been to New Haven or had ANY Connecticut pizza, I have had burnt crust on pizza before. Someday soon. I think it provides a contrast in flavors between the sauce, cheese and toppings. I wonder, though, if the burnt crust is the convention, or if it is specifically requested by the customer (similar to the Hot Truck in Ithaca, NY). "It's almost impossible to find a "bad slice" in a small Manhattan pizza shop (note that this excludes Sbarro's, Pizza Hut, etc.)."- MetroplexJim I've gotta disagree with that statement. I live in Manhattan and have had more than my share of lousy slices. Too many places make subs, calzones, pasta and pizza and the art of the pizza gets lost in the shuffle. I've never had a good slice from Ray Bari's, any of the various Famous Ray's/Famous Original Ray's/Original Famous Ray's (with the exception of the Prince St. location actually called just "Ray's"), and Pizza Mercato to name a few. I find that the places with the best slices are the ones that have the smallest menus and just focus on doing that well. There don't seem to be many of them though. For me, most of the best pizza comes from the places that only traffic in whole pies.

I've never had a good slice from Ray Bari's, any of the various Famous Ray's/Famous Original Ray's/Original Famous Ray's (with the exception of the Prince St. location actually called just "Ray's"),

I have to disagree... The slices at Rays ( the "alledged" original one in Greenwich Village on 6th ave at 12 street) have always been excellent. In fact I've yet to have a spinach slice ANYWHERE as good as the one served there!

These ovens which cook the pie at temps of 700 - 1000 degrees have led to great "gourmet" pies I've enjoyed all over the country

1000 degrees??? Do they really get that hot? That sounds like it would scorch and melt anything that came within 50 feet of the oven, including the pizza, the peel, and the arms of the chef!

[url='http://video.google.it/videoplay?docid=3527298901888342949&q=pizzafest']Here's[/url] an excellent quality Italian video that shows a pizza being cooked in under a minute. It doesn't indicate the temp, but I'll bet it's at least 1000 degrees.

After viewing this I went onto Youtube.com and search "wood fired pizza" for more examples. I was amazed how many people have built backyard wood fired pizza ovens. Now I am inspired to go to the next step. I want to build one in my backyard! Then Wandering Jew I will treat you to the absolutely very best considering no commercial pizza joint can stay in business with the investment of ingredients I am willing to put into a pizza of my own at home. My Margherita pizzas start out with $8 worth of fresh basil and buffalo mozzarella cheese alone.

Love the crust & underside slightly burnt. The crust in the picture is a little too done for my tastes...but not by much. That burnt crust being used to mop up the oil left over in the pan accompanied by an ice cold cheap American beer (PBR, Rolling Rock or Genny) with Sinatra on the juke box...really tough to beat.

These ovens which cook the pie at temps of 700 - 1000 degrees have led to great "gourmet" pies I've enjoyed all over the country

1000 degrees??? Do they really get that hot? That sounds like it would scorch and melt anything that came within 50 feet of the oven, including the pizza, the peel, and the arms of the chef!

[url='http://video.google.it/videoplay?docid=3527298901888342949&q=pizzafest']Here's[/url] an excellent quality Italian video that shows a pizza being cooked in under a minute. It doesn't indicate the temp, but I'll bet it's at least 1000 degrees.

After viewing this I went onto Youtube.com and search "wood fired pizza" for more examples. I was amazed how many people have built backyard wood fired pizza ovens. Now I am inspired to go to the next step. I want to build one in my backyard! Then Wandering Jew I will treat you to the absolutely very best considering no commercial pizza joint can stay in business with the investment of ingredients I am willing to put into a pizza of my own at home. My Margherita pizzas start out with $8 worth of fresh basil and buffalo mozzarella cheese alone.

As a big fan of New Haven coal fired brick oven apizza, even I have to say the edge of the apizza shown is a little "over the edge" in degree of doneness. Parts of that crust have gone to inedible charcoal though the rest of the pie looks good. I personally prefer Modern for red pies though nobody can touch Pepe's for the white clam. At Modern, when ordering you can specify regular, well done or burnt. Usually you get what you request though it's not an exact science.I do think it is a fairly narrow geographical preference for the well done versions. I commented on a photo of the day a few weeks back of a pizza from a place in Onset, Ma. It looked to me like it needed some more oven time but nobody else seemed to agree.

Our lunch pie seemed to be done in an instant. It was wonderful - a few darker spots on the bottom and edges, but no char. They said the temp was "nearly 1000 degrees". Whatever the temp, the result was worth the trip down to U. Park.

I love it burnt, though if the end crust is anymore burnt than the way it is in the original post's photo then the crust starts to lose its bread flavor and starts tasting a little too much like ash. I've been to both the original and Fairfield Pepe's many times, every time the end crust has a nice "char" but would fall short of what I would call "burnt." The pizza above seems to stradle the lines for me, possibly slightly overcooked, but it still seems very tasty.

There does seem to be something else going on with these "burnt crust" pies. What I mean is, when I make pizza at home, if there's any blackened crust, it tastes burned, like burned toast. Not so at Pepe's, and other hot-oven pizzerias. What I think is happening is that the super high oven heat scorches the surface but leaves the insides unburned. When I cook pizza at home in a 500 degree oven, by the time the crust is scorched, it burns all the way through.

BB&SB, Since you have eaten at Frank Pepe's I think your explanation makes sense. Our new oven with a maximum of 550 degrees in a one rack high space makes all the difference in my home pizzas per the picture I posted on the previous page. I won't get charred but I will get a nicely leopard look.

Davydd, I think those extra 50 degrees help. The problem with homemade pizza, if you're a crust person, is you have to leave the pie in the oven too long, at those relatively low temperatures, in order to cook the pizza. The crust suffers. Our pies taste pretty good, all things considered, but not as good as the best pies we can get out, and our crust is the weakest link. For us, Pepe's is the gold standard for pizza crust.

Davydd, I think those extra 50 degrees help. The problem with homemade pizza, if you're a crust person, is you have to leave the pie in the oven too long, at those relatively low temperatures, in order to cook the pizza. The crust suffers. Our pies taste pretty good, all things considered, but not as good as the best pies we can get out, and our crust is the weakest link. For us, Pepe's is the gold standard for pizza crust.

Heat and a pre-heated stone to bake on top of. The pizzas I made this week without a peel had to go into a gas oven at 500 degrees. I had to cook on an aluminum pan that I in turn placed on the stone for instant contact heat. It took about 12 to 14 minutes to bake those pizzas. At my home with our new oven that is shallow in height and heats to 550 degrees my pizzas directly on a stone are baking in 8 minutes and it does make a difference.

This is the GE Profile electric double oven we have with the shallow top oven ideal for pizzas. I love it.

Growing up in RI in the 60s there were pizza joints and good pizza restaurants and then there was just pizza from department and convenience stores. Of course, there was also Caserta's, which was thick crust (not as thick as what we now call Sicilian, but it was considered Sicilian by the Sicilians).

What my folks considered to be good pizza, from a pizza restaurant, was deckled black. I guess that's what you call "leopard." Blacked all around the crust like some of the Connecticut specimens shown here was called burned, which was a special order. The Contis in our neighborhood who ran a restaurant, and my Grandfather's restaurant clients, all claimed you couldn't cook a pizza without a high heat oven. Most of them used gas pizza ovens, but they cranked.

Then when the first energy crisis hit in the 70s the crusts stopped being blackened. People were eating out less, the restaurants couldn't afford to keep those ovens cranking on high all the time, and it was more to the kids' tastes like Caserta's.

Those blackened crusts remind me of an earlier day. I know I didn't like them as a child, but I'll bet they'd taste pretty good to me now.

Ok.. I see all these folks on the East Coast bragging about their burnt crust pizza. Here, and I speak as a former Pizza Shop worker in the Midwest, a burnt crust could get you shot! Actually if you over brown them around here you're getting returns. May be a regional deal, but honestly, these burnt crusts are not for me either..

I agree with you UncleVic, our deep - dish thick crust pizza beats that thin cracker crust east coast/N.Y style anyday. Some flamers will probably take that as a bash against NYC, no, I love NYC I go there monthly on business, I just think their pizza is no better than frozen pizza from the supermarket, and I don't mean the gourmet frozen pizza. I mean, Jenos, Tony's etc.....

I agree with you UncleVic, our deep - dish thick crust pizza beats that thin cracker crust east coast/N.Y style anyday. Some flamers will probably take that as a bash against NYC, no, I love NYC I go there monthly on business, I just think their pizza is no better than frozen pizza from the supermarket, and I don't mean the gourmet frozen pizza. I mean, Jenos, Tony's etc.....

You've obviously been eating at the wrong pizza joints on your many visits to New York City. Cracker crust and N.Y. style are two distinctly different pizzas. Also, I don't think you know what you are talking about when it comes to food in general or you would never compare true NY pizza to Jeno's, Tony's, etc.... You, sir, are the flamer in this group and the provocative nature of the majority of your posts proves it. pb

I just think their pizza is no better than frozen pizza from the supermarket, and I don't mean the gourmet frozen pizza. I mean, Jenos, Tony's etc.....

Dining room Dining room Dining room......

You are absolutely right!! Lombardis, Johns, Patsy's, Grimaldis, Frank Pepes, Joe and Pat's, shall i go on???? they all are no better than a frozen Jenos or tonys pizza!!!

I really want some of what you are on my friend!! I dont think ill ever take you seriously again!! I know everyone has their own tastes but that is just such an unbelievable statement i just had to chime in!! As lousy as MOST of chicagos pizza is I would never compare it to crap as you have done!!Next time your in New York you can get a great steak at TAD'S than go home and slam Our Steakhouses too!!

The thing to remember about this diningroom poster is that he used another name to ask whether Morton's was like Ponderosa and Texas Steak House -- or was it Longhorn? -- then, using this diningroom name, owned up to trolling.

Whoa there.. I never mentioned anything about the thickness of a crust. I lover cracker, and I love normal thickness crusts... Just not the ones burnt. That was all. But in all honesty, if the crust in the picture was not burnt (and you know the bottom is crusty black as well), it would make for a fine tasting pizza! I love the grease on top of the cheese from the sausage and pepperoni. We had a shop here in town 20 years ago called Russo's that put out one of the finest greasiest pizzas you ever ate. Pure heaven from days gone bye.

I love "burnt crust" if you mean dark golden color on the bottom and sides. I always order my pizza well done as I like it crispy. I used to work in a small bistro and our brick oven ran about 700 - 750 degrees. It only took about 5 minutes to cook a pie. Always had that dark charcoal color on the bottom and everybody loved it! I wish I had a fire place at home so I could rig something up to get that wonderful flavor at home but, alas no hope for me here in Wickenburg AZ.

Until I actually taste Pepe's pizza I am going with Bruce and Sue's explanation that the high heat only sears the outer surface and does not actually burn the crust. If so, it should taste pretty good. You cannot always judge by looks. If that were the case Madison Avenue and major food companies and chain restaurants would have us all bamboozled with their slick presentations. Er, it actually works it seems for Papa Johns.