Bozhe pomiluy is never used liturgically. Neither is Khritsye pomiluy.

Господи, помилуй is used liturgically? what's the transliteration for this? Gospodi pomilui ?

is Господи, помилуй Slavonic or Russian or both in this case? obviously I know nothing of either

Gospodi, pomiluy (Господи, помилуй) is constantly used liturgically. The first words of a foreign liturgical language one learns is Lord, have mercy in that language, simply because it is repeated so often in every type of service.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 10:52:04 PM by LBK »

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also Romanian use "MILUeshte" what is close sound to "poMILUY" , same root.

Issue is it is may be far from "eleison" ....

"Slavic" Pray of tax collector also use "MILostiv" but it is not "ἐλέησον" but "ἱλάσθητί" and have not same meaning... so it is sad Slavics loosing real meaning.... as well as English.... non of those words is "mercy" ... people pray and do not know what they asking ....

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

also Romanian use "MILUeshte" what is close sound to "poMILUY" , same root.

Issue is it is may be far from "eleison" ....

"Slavic" Pray of tax collector also use "MILostiv" but it is not "ἐλέησον" but "ἱλάσθητί" and have not same meaning... so it is sad Slavics loosing real meaning.... as well as English.... non of those words is "mercy" ... people pray and do not know what they asking ....

Slight aside, I know, but the Romanian is 'Doamne miluieşte' which sounds like (roughly) 'DWAM-neh mee-loo-YESH-teh'. You're correct about the root (it's 'a milui' from Slavonic 'milovati') but what you describe as the pronunciation is rather off. You've missed the 'y' sound completely and it appears as though you're stressing the wrong syllable, though you may have meant something different by the capitalisation.

James

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

also Romanian use "MILUeshte" what is close sound to "poMILUY" , same root.

Issue is it is may be far from "eleison" ....

"Slavic" Pray of tax collector also use "MILostiv" but it is not "ἐλέησον" but "ἱλάσθητί" and have not same meaning... so it is sad Slavics loosing real meaning.... as well as English.... non of those words is "mercy" ... people pray and do not know what they asking ....

Slight aside, I know, but the Romanian is 'Doamne miluieşte' which sounds like (roughly) 'DWAM-neh mee-loo-YESH-teh'. You're correct about the root (it's 'a milui' from Slavonic 'milovati') but what you describe as the pronunciation is rather off. You've missed the 'y' sound completely and it appears as though you're stressing the wrong syllable, though you may have meant something different by the capitalisation.

James

1. Romanian/moldavian sound like "Dom-ne" - it is from latin. Mee-loo-y is slavic. and "yesh" - is coomon slavic ends... Romanian/moldovian use slavic alfabet till 150 years ago (or so).

2. Meelooy/miluy (mercy) have no relation to "eleison" ... and it is KEY message ... no matter , we like it or not. It is why Latin still keep "kirie eleison" , for there are not equal translation at Europe...

so slavic "Gospodi Pomiluy" - is wrong translation. Just as same as slavic and romanian/moldovian creed about "sobornaya" - CATHOLIC church is wrong too.

Why are you bringing up who lives where? That's not the point of this discussion.

However since you brought it up, I wold like to inform you that Ukrainians live all over the world.Russians live in Ukraine...or I guess by your standards that makes them Ukrainians.

..and most assuredly there are many Ukrainian Orthodox in the USA and elsewhere.

Your comments display your lack of knowledge in this area.You need to study some more.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

1. Romanian/moldavian sound like "Dom-ne" - it is from latin. Mee-loo-y is slavic. and "yesh" - is coomon slavic ends... Romanian/moldovian use slavic alfabet till 150 years ago (or so).

Yes Doamne is from Latin, but no it doesn't like 'Dom-ne'. It sounds like I described earlier - the o and a are run together with o being roughly equivalent to a soft English 'w' as a result. A milui is indeed from Slavonic as I clearly said but the 'este' ending is not - it's Latin based grammar welded on a Slavonic root. I speak the language pretty fluently. It seems to me that you have no more than a passing acquaintance with it. As for the Cyrillic alphabet - you're out on the years but essentially correct. So what?

Quote

2. Meelooy/miluy (mercy) have no relation to "eleison" ... and it is KEY message ... no matter , we like it or not. It is why Latin still keep "kirie eleison" , for there are not equal translation at Europe...

Somehow I doubt that you know what you're talking about. If I look up the meaning of 'Kyrie eleison' I find it means 'Lord have mercy'. 'Doamne miluieşte' certainly means the same (though the vocative grammar used makes it rather more emphatic than in English). Unless you can demonstrate a rather better grasp of Greek than you have of Romanian I have no reason to take your claim seriously. What do you think is wrong with the translation?

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so slavic "Gospodi Pomiluy" - is wrong translation. Just as same as slavic and romanian/moldovian creed about "sobornaya" - CATHOLIC church is wrong too.

Why do think that? 'Sobornicesc' in Romanian is certainly the correct way to translate the catholic of the Creed (as it means according to the whole). The alternative, 'catolic', would be entirely wrong as that refers to the Roman Catholic Church only.

Incidentally, if you think that tracing back roots of words in one language to another informs you of the correct meaning of derived word currently then you need to brush up on your knowledge of linguistics.

James

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

You may ignore it as long you wish , but not for ever , just few more decades.... and then you no longer "Ukrainian" ...

My dear,

You apparently don't really know me, otherwise, you would be well aware that I put Orthodoxy well above my love of nation, to the point that I have offended many Ukrainians.

However, since this thread is about Slavic languages and such, I will explain my Ukrainian point of view.

Furthermore, you need to relax. The Orthodox Church is already One. If you recall, during Pentecost the disciples were given the gift of language. This leads me to believe that God doesn't wish to abolish the nations, just to reach all of them....using languages that the people living their will understand.

Therefore, your battle against Ukrainian or Romanian or whatever your true point is (which I have yet to deduce) is moot. God will abolish what He wishes to abolish in His time....not yours....and He will nurture what He wishes to nurture.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

1. Romanian/moldavian sound like "Dom-ne" - it is from latin. Mee-loo-y is slavic. and "yesh" - is coomon slavic ends... Romanian/moldovian use slavic alfabet till 150 years ago (or so).

Yes Doamne is from Latin, but no it doesn't like 'Dom-ne'. It sounds like I described earlier - the o and a are run together with o being roughly equivalent to a soft English 'w' as a result. A milui is indeed from Slavonic as I clearly said but the 'este' ending is not - it's Latin based grammar welded on a Slavonic root. I speak the language pretty fluently. It seems to me that you have no more than a passing acquaintance with it. As for the Cyrillic alphabet - you're out on the years but essentially correct. So what?

Quote

2. Meelooy/miluy (mercy) have no relation to "eleison" ... and it is KEY message ... no matter , we like it or not. It is why Latin still keep "kirie eleison" , for there are not equal translation at Europe...

Somehow I doubt that you know what you're talking about. If I look up the meaning of 'Kyrie eleison' I find it means 'Lord have mercy'. 'Doamne miluieşte' certainly means the same (though the vocative grammar used makes it rather more emphatic than in English). Unless you can demonstrate a rather better grasp of Greek than you have of Romanian I have no reason to take your claim seriously. What do you think is wrong with the translation?

Quote

so slavic "Gospodi Pomiluy" - is wrong translation. Just as same as slavic and romanian/moldovian creed about "sobornaya" - CATHOLIC church is wrong too.

Why do think that? 'Sobornicesc' in Romanian is certainly the correct way to translate the catholic of the Creed (as it means according to the whole). The alternative, 'catolic', would be entirely wrong as that refers to the Roman Catholic Church only.

Incidentally, if you think that tracing back roots of words in one language to another informs you of the correct meaning of derived word currently then you need to brush up on your knowledge of linguistics.

James

"Sobornaya" - in Slavic have no thing to do with "Catholic". it is extrimly distant meaning. Sobor - is council. not Catholic - Universal etc. Pomiluj - is mercy - YES. eleison is not mercy.

1. Romanian/moldavian sound like "Dom-ne" - it is from latin. Mee-loo-y is slavic. and "yesh" - is coomon slavic ends... Romanian/moldovian use slavic alfabet till 150 years ago (or so).

Yes Doamne is from Latin, but no it doesn't like 'Dom-ne'. It sounds like I described earlier - the o and a are run together with o being roughly equivalent to a soft English 'w' as a result. A milui is indeed from Slavonic as I clearly said but the 'este' ending is not - it's Latin based grammar welded on a Slavonic root. I speak the language pretty fluently. It seems to me that you have no more than a passing acquaintance with it. As for the Cyrillic alphabet - you're out on the years but essentially correct. So what?

Quote

2. Meelooy/miluy (mercy) have no relation to "eleison" ... and it is KEY message ... no matter , we like it or not. It is why Latin still keep "kirie eleison" , for there are not equal translation at Europe...

Somehow I doubt that you know what you're talking about. If I look up the meaning of 'Kyrie eleison' I find it means 'Lord have mercy'. 'Doamne miluieşte' certainly means the same (though the vocative grammar used makes it rather more emphatic than in English). Unless you can demonstrate a rather better grasp of Greek than you have of Romanian I have no reason to take your claim seriously. What do you think is wrong with the translation?

Quote

so slavic "Gospodi Pomiluy" - is wrong translation. Just as same as slavic and romanian/moldovian creed about "sobornaya" - CATHOLIC church is wrong too.

Why do think that? 'Sobornicesc' in Romanian is certainly the correct way to translate the catholic of the Creed (as it means according to the whole). The alternative, 'catolic', would be entirely wrong as that refers to the Roman Catholic Church only.

Incidentally, if you think that tracing back roots of words in one language to another informs you of the correct meaning of derived word currently then you need to brush up on your knowledge of linguistics.

James

"Sobornaya" - in Slavic have no thing to do with "Catholic". it is extrimly distant meaning. Sobor - is council. not Catholic - Universal etc. Pomiluj - is mercy - YES. eleison is not mercy.

Tell me Romanian version of "Tax collector pray"?

You have weird ideas. Perhaps you have proof for their veracity other than out of context quotes from the Psalms?

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

this is way off topic but as the OP I'll throw it in apropos of nothing...

When I was 6 or 7 I came home from school one day and asked my mom if we were Ukranians because I knew her mother was born in Odessa and I looked a little like other Ukranian kids in my school. Her shock really surprised me because I didn't know any better or different and would have been fine with whatever the answer was. She looked hard at me and emphatically said "we are Russians! - don't let anyone tell you you're Ukranian"! I gathered from this it must be better to be Russian apparently but I had no idea why and I still don't. Господи, помилуй.

Be proud of what you are....but, the main point is don't limit others who want to be what they are.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Be proud of what you are....but, the main point is don't limit others who want to be what they are.

no worries there... I'm not about to limit anyone who actually is something. I envy them whatever they are. The "melting pot" culture I grew up in "did a real number" on me. I don't feel like anything but I might have some emotional patterns that carried over generations? Some day I'd like to visit Slavic countries and see.

Therefore, your battle against Ukrainian or Romanian or whatever your true point is (which I have yet to deduce) is moot. God will abolish what He wishes to abolish in His time....not yours....and He will nurture what He wishes to nurture.

It seems to me that he battles against intelligence and the English language. And he is losing both battles.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

this is way off topic but as the OP I'll throw it in apropos of nothing...

When I was 6 or 7 I came home from school one day and asked my mom if we were Ukranians because I knew her mother was born in Odessa and I looked a little like other Ukranian kids in my school. Her shock really surprised me because I didn't know any better or different and would have been fine with whatever the answer was. She looked hard at me and emphatically said "we are Russians! - don't let anyone tell you you're Ukranian"! I gathered from this it must be better to be Russian apparently but I had no idea why and I still don't. Господи, помилуй.

Not to further spill the ethnographic worms of emnity, but there are a lot of Russians living in Ukraine and a lot of Ukrainians living in Russia. Sometimes, you can tell one from the other by last names. Sometimes by language (thought many Ukrainians don't speak Ukrainian), but mostly it seems to me it's more about self-identification. And you can't really argue about that. I mean, you could, but your varenniki will get bloody, and that's just awful to contemplate.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

I knew about the Ukrainian use of H (both hard and soft) well before we emigrated to the United States. I must say that, as a Bulgarian, it is exceedingly odd that this is done, just as odd as the Russian substitution of the "shwa" sound for unaccepted vowels. I am very fond of he Kuban Kossack Choir and it just bothers me every time that its director is introduced as Victor Zakharchenka! Why would anyone use the feminine ending "ka" for Zakharchenko?

If I may say anything about our resident expert on all things Slavic, I do wander what sort of qualifications "Alive" possesses, and what makes him so sure of himself.

I knew about the Ukrainian use of H (both hard and soft) well before we emigrated to the United States. I must say that, as a Bulgarian, it is exceedingly odd that this is done, just as odd as the Russian substitution of the "shwa" sound for unaccepted vowels. I am very fond of he Kuban Kossack Choir and it just bothers me every time that its director is introduced as Victor Zakharchenka! Why would anyone use the feminine ending "ka" for Zakharchenko?

If I may say anything about our resident expert on all things Slavic, I do wander what sort of qualifications "Alive" possesses, and what makes him so sure of himself.

1. You right , it is extrimly odd. simple people who live in villages, abused by government with all this grammatical innovation. Most people in the villages speak no "ukreinin" nor "russian".

2.also i have no idea why any one put "K" for ZaKhahernko, if it is ZaHarenko.

All this grammar games is just to waist money and play with people mind

Not to further spill the ethnographic worms of emnity, but there are a lot of Russians living in Ukraine and a lot of Ukrainians living in Russia. Sometimes, you can tell one from the other by last names. Sometimes by language (thought many Ukrainians don't speak Ukrainian), but mostly it seems to me it's more about self-identification. And you can't really argue about that. I mean, you could, but your varenniki will get bloody, and that's just awful to contemplate.

you are talking about "citizenship" what called this day "nationality as in passport".

Politicians use "grammar games" to screw people mind ... and it is sound like people are happy to be rip off.

2.also i have no idea why any one put "K" for ZaKhahernko, if it is ZaHarenko.

This is done when transliterating X from a Slavic language or Greek to English. The English H is softer than the X of Greek or Slavic languages, so the KH tells the reader to pronounce it more heavily than the normal English H.

Nothing to do with playing with anyone's mind.

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No longer posting here. Anyone is welcome to PM me or email me at the address in my profile.

Be proud of what you are....but, the main point is don't limit others who want to be what they are.

She promote what orthodoxy opposing....

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Any question?

Satana is farther of pride.

....that's the best you got?

Are you suggesting I should be ashamed of the family/ancestry into which God planted me?

Just a couple of days ago during Liturgy was read from the Gospel that so and so begot so and so, etc. This was a documentation of Christ's ancestry.

So, should we shun that which Christ honored?

« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 12:11:13 AM by LizaSymonenko »

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

this is way off topic but as the OP I'll throw it in apropos of nothing...

When I was 6 or 7 I came home from school one day and asked my mom if we were Ukranians because I knew her mother was born in Odessa and I looked a little like other Ukranian kids in my school. Her shock really surprised me because I didn't know any better or different and would have been fine with whatever the answer was. She looked hard at me and emphatically said "we are Russians! - don't let anyone tell you you're Ukranian"! I gathered from this it must be better to be Russian apparently but I had no idea why and I still don't. Господи, помилуй.

This reminds me of my grandfather. His parents were from the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and spoke Slovak. He would tell anyone who asked him that he was a Pole!

"Sobornaya" - in Slavic have no thing to do with "Catholic". it is extrimly distant meaning. Sobor - is council. not Catholic - Universal etc. Pomiluj - is mercy - YES. eleison is not mercy.

Catholic means 'according to the whole'. Conciliar (i.e. holding to the faith of the whole Church as expressed in council) seems a perfectly reasonable way to translate the Orthodox understanding of that idea into a different language. We don't understand Catholic to mean universal in the way that some Roman Catholics seem to. If you're saying that sobornicesc doesn't correctly translate the latter Latin idea I'd agree with you (which is why Romanian also has catolic), but that's only because that peculiar interpretation of catholic is, in itself, not a particularly good translation (to the best of my knowledge - may a Greek speaker correct if I'm wrong) of the Greek 'kata holos'.

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Tell me Romanian version of "Tax collector pray"?

You mean what does Luke 18:13 say in Romanian? It's: 'Dumnezeule, fii milostiv mie, păcătosului'. Which translates as 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner'. That's grammatically different (exactly as it is in English) from 'Lord have mercy on me' but essentially means exactly the same thing. And as you can see, milostiv has precisely the same root as a milui. What point were you trying to make exactly?

James

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

"Sobornaya" - in Slavic have no thing to do with "Catholic". it is extrimly distant meaning. Sobor - is council. not Catholic - Universal etc. Pomiluj - is mercy - YES. eleison is not mercy.

Catholic means 'according to the whole'. Conciliar (i.e. holding to the faith of the whole Church as expressed in council) seems a perfectly reasonable way to translate the Orthodox understanding of that idea into a different language. We don't understand Catholic to mean universal in the way that some Roman Catholics seem to. If you're saying that sobornicesc doesn't correctly translate the latter Latin idea I'd agree with you (which is why Romanian also has catolic), but that's only because that peculiar interpretation of catholic is, in itself, not a particularly good translation (to the best of my knowledge - may a Greek speaker correct if I'm wrong) of the Greek 'kata holos'.

Quote

Tell me Romanian version of "Tax collector pray"?

You mean what does Luke 18:13 say in Romanian? It's: 'Dumnezeule, fii milostiv mie, păcătosului'. Which translates as 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner'. That's grammatically different (exactly as it is in English) from 'Lord have mercy on me' but essentially means exactly the same thing. And as you can see, milostiv has precisely the same root as a milui. What point were you trying to make exactly?

James

1. Catholic mean worldwide, universal etc. not Conciliar ... there are not democracy in Church.

in reality there are not "orthodox Church". Church is "Catholic" , and teaching and perception are "orthodox".

As far i know Romania have few translation of creed used depending on region (it is not about "sobornicesc"). .... But lets back to Sobornaya - at "slavic" people take wrongly across. It used to promote autocracy of bishop etc, so basically it is promote Popism.

i am not fluent in Romanian , but "Sobor" have Slavic origin and on slavic have not much retailer to Universal, and most books do teach "sobotnaya" as ruled by council of bishops... And it is wrong, incorrect as well as path to corruption.

2. For me ἐλέησον and ἱλάσθητί are not same. Just same as μακάριοι is not εὐλογημένη , but people translated it english use just blessed.... for both.... if it not make diferent for you ...well ... it is not same for me so i did point it out.

...and if i do ask God about some thing , i like to make sure i am clear about.

2.also i have no idea why any one put "K" for ZaKhahernko, if it is ZaHarenko.

This is done when transliterating X from a Slavic language or Greek to English. The English H is softer than the X of Greek or Slavic languages, so the KH tells the reader to pronounce it more heavily than the normal English H.