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That is a wonderful point, AP. It would be a historic blunder, to go rushing in and put imported marble on top of the sacred foundations and structure a la Swaminarayan mandir, Dilli.

Do you KNOW what the original Ram Mandir there looked like? I don't, and cannot guess. But given the ruins that can be retried, I think ASI and scripture experts can reconstruct this, given time and peace. Many PhD theses.

I think one should file a Stay Betishun in Indian SC to demand that ASI systematically dig down as far and around as needed to excavate all human- or vanara-built structure signs from the area, to be as systematically rebuilt elsewhere to display. {For all we know the Ram Mandir may have been built on the ruins of the Dasaratha temple...} THEN, and then only, build the new Mandir. Otherwise todin's yindoos will be even more guilty of sacrilege than the savages who came from Afghanistan centuries ago. Where do we start this campaign?

For people who are defensive when uber secular gang suggest that in place of Shri Ram Janam Bhumi, build a hospital or a school - We should agree, on one condition, when in Kaba, Mecca, let them replace it with a school or hospital first, we will promptly follow suite.

fanne wrote:For people who are defensive when uber secular gang suggest that in place of Shri Ram Janam Bhumi, build a hospital or a school - We should agree, on one condition, when in Kaba, Mecca, let them replace it with a school or hospital first, we will promptly follow suite.

For them,First, just though of "School/Hospital wahi banayenga" will cause pants and skirts wet. Second, discussing even secretly will cause their bank accounts emptyThird, blurting out will cause their heads halal-ed

Their freedom of speech stops right at rekha/line of criticizing Hindus.

JE Menon wrote:>>If I remember correctly, the tradition of incorporating local Gods in to Roman pantheon did not work with Christians and the Jews. Indeed. Therein lies the catch. Although it must be stressed that the Jews main concern was not whether they could live under the Romans, but that the Romans wanted their emperor worshipped as "divine". Even to make a token gesture in that direction was not possible for the Jews. Having said that, the Romans and Jews co-existed for centuries, they had a modus vivendi of sorts with the Romans in the position of power. With the Christians, the situation was quite different because unlike they Jews, they actively disrupted the social status quo in the Roman Empire. The Jews just wanted to be left alone to get on with their thing, without having to acquiesce in the divinity of the Emperor. The Romans went quite a way in accommodating that, but not all the way. The Jewish rebellions of course put paid to all thought of accommodation. It is a strange case of both elites wanting order, but the Jewish "working class" as it were deciding that enough poverty was enough.

The difference between The Jews and the Christians was efforts made to proselytize. This did disturb the status quo of the Roman Empire.Gautam

should agree, on one condition, when in Kaba, Mecca, let them replace it with a school or hospital first, we will promptly follow suite.

Hmm... No we won't. Parking is really short over there, and the list of those who plan to improve it, is quite long. Also, it may happen any day. If a ******** weppun goes off in either Yoo Ess or Russia, parking improvement in **cca is a certainty, it has been promised by US entities and Russia does not promise: they believe in Just Do It. Now Iran may also do it. As realities change w.r.t. MBS, Israel may do it in return for any parking favors done inside Israel.

UlanBatori wrote:That is a wonderful point, AP. It would be a historic blunder, to go rushing in and put imported marble on top of the sacred foundations and structure a la Swaminarayan mandir, Dilli.

Do you KNOW what the original Ram Mandir there looked like? I don't, and cannot guess. But given the ruins that can be retried, I think ASI and scripture experts can reconstruct this, given time and peace. Many PhD theses.

I think one should file a Stay Betishun in Indian SC to demand that ASI systematically dig down as far and around as needed to excavate all human- or vanara-built structure signs from the area, to be as systematically rebuilt elsewhere to display. {For all we know the Ram Mandir may have been built on the ruins of the Dasaratha temple...} THEN, and then only, build the new Mandir. Otherwise todin's yindoos will be even more guilty of sacrilege than the savages who came from Afghanistan centuries ago.

I had alluded to a potential for this situation in the starter post of this thread- point # 4. Apart from the fact that we want to preserve the historical structures found there (including the foundations) I think it will also not be possible to build a new temple atop old, existing foundation that was designed for a different temple- meaning different footprint/plan, and for a structure of different height and therefore, weight (unless they go for some very unique approaches and build a sturdy platform/frame over the previous foundations).Clearing out existing foundations and stored somewhere will be a multi-year task; a worthwhile task in my mind because of the history it will reveal.

What was really interesting and surprising to me was they they found ruins dating upto 1600 BC and artifacts from a range of civilizations since that date including pre-Maurya, Maurya, Gupta and probably Chandela eras. There lies, literally speaking, tons and tons of history in that 67-acre plot. And given that Ram's story would have been told to all Hindus for the last 5000+ years, it is likely that the ruins and artifacts there will be unique (and not just examples of civil engineering techniques from 1600 BC and later).

I think India can now bring modern machinery to dig as deep as necessary: plenty of tall bldgs in Gurgaon. Hope they first use this with guidance from Archaeological and scripture experts working as a team as ASI has shown. Relocate everything, maybe ship in earth from all over India when the Big Dig is done.

I think the problem wont be digging fast- it will be digging carefully. I am reasonably sure they have not fully exposed all the ruins in the complex, and all the smaller artifacts that come up with digging up such ruins- coins, idols, figurines, vessels, jewelery- will have to be carefully dug up. Given the pedigree of the site, one expects some unique stuff to come up. This is still a live archeological site with top layers sitting on other layers below them.

I hope they publish the pdf of the ASI report quickly. It should not take them more than a week to scan it and post a pdf. Some minister was talking about printing the report as a book. Will take months for the babus to print a book. Scan it and post a pdf on the web, I say.....it will reveal a lot of good stuff.

Some where in the middle Swamiji mentions it is Devalaya. Sanskrit word we use for temple is Devalaya (Deva + Alaya = God's House/place/residence). Until India dissolves Colonial judicial system, there won't be real justice for Hindus.

===Merrium-Webster dictionary's definition of temple is not same as what Devalaya really means.Definition of temple (Entry 1 of 7)1 : a building for religious practice: such asa often capitalized : either of two successive national sanctuaries in ancient Jerusalemb : a building for Mormon sacred ordinancesc : the house of worship of Reform and some Conservative Jewish congregations2 : a local lodge of any of various fraternal orders also : the building housing it3 : a place devoted to a special purpose

UlanBatori wrote:That is a wonderful point, AP. It would be a historic blunder, to go rushing in and put imported marble on top of the sacred foundations and structure a la Swaminarayan mandir, Dilli.

Do you KNOW what the original Ram Mandir there looked like? I don't, and cannot guess. But given the ruins that can be retried, I think ASI and scripture experts can reconstruct this, given time and peace. Many PhD theses.

I think one should file a Stay Betishun in Indian SC to demand that ASI systematically dig down as far and around as needed to excavate all human- or vanara-built structure signs from the area, to be as systematically rebuilt elsewhere to display. {For all we know the Ram Mandir may have been built on the ruins of the Dasaratha temple...} THEN, and then only, build the new Mandir. Otherwise todin's yindoos will be even more guilty of sacrilege than the savages who came from Afghanistan centuries ago. Where do we start this campaign?

The ASI is underfunded. If anything that comes out of this verdict, it should be that the ASI be given better resources as it integral to Hindu culture. ASI has an annual budget of Rs. 975 crore or about $140 million. There is literally a treasure trove of historical-religious sites all across India which are too numerous to mention that go back thousands of years. The ASI should be the repository for Indian history for use by academics and religious institutions across the world.

Deploy technology while excavating the RJB Site. Israel has developed a technology something like underground radar to detect underground tunnels, etc This technology can be used for analysing underground rock formations(man made), items(metals,ceramics), cut stones etc. This way we can accelerate the rate of excavation. All materials need to be archived for future generations. Outsiders must be strictly kept out of this process.

UlanBatori wrote:That is a wonderful point, AP. It would be a historic blunder, to go rushing in and put imported marble on top of the sacred foundations and structure a la Swaminarayan mandir, Dilli.

Do you KNOW what the original Ram Mandir there looked like? I don't, and cannot guess. But given the ruins that can be retried, I think ASI and scripture experts can reconstruct this, given time and peace. Many PhD theses.

I think one should file a Stay Betishun in Indian SC to demand that ASI systematically dig down as far and around as needed to excavate all human- or vanara-built structure signs from the area, to be as systematically rebuilt elsewhere to display. {For all we know the Ram Mandir may have been built on the ruins of the Dasaratha temple...} THEN, and then only, build the new Mandir. Otherwise todin's yindoos will be even more guilty of sacrilege than the savages who came from Afghanistan centuries ago. Where do we start this campaign?

The ASI is underfunded. If anything that comes out of this verdict, it should be that the ASI be given better resources as it integral to Hindu culture. ASI has an annual budget of Rs. 975 crore or about $140 million. There is literally a treasure trove of historical-religious sites all across India which are too numerous to mention that go back thousands of years. The ASI should be the repository for Indian history for use by academics and religious institutions across the world.

Karthik S wrote:Looks like they have filed a petition asking that 5 acres be inside the 67 acres.

Why not in JNU? too much of land is there and that to, close to, people who like, love and fight for them.

Now how many AH are saying lets build a school/hospital/post office in that 5 acres?

not to mention the vast numbers of mullahs in JNU

they want a freely accessible legal foot hold in the very heart of the RJB.

whatever they build, a "small" mosque will invariably follow, and all of a sudden, teeming hordes of beardos will overflow into the surrounding areas and block all roads for jumma and namaz citing the freedom granted to them under the constitution of India.

Follow the saudi barbaria method, exclude all other religions from coming even close to the RJB, just like they enforce exclusivity in mecca and medina.

SriKumar wrote: I hope they publish the pdf of the ASI report quickly. It should not take them more than a week to scan it and post a pdf. Some minister was talking about printing the report as a book. Will take months for the babus to print a book. Scan it and post a pdf on the web, I say.....it will reveal a lot of good stuff.

You are so kind and optimistic. Nearly two years ago, the ICSSR (council for social sciences research) was GIVEN (by the request of their chief babu, an NDA appointee) a complete finished work, which all they had to do was get reviewed by their esteemed experts and published with a nice cover and their Symbol. U know the rest of the story. Its like trying to open an Online Account at State Baink of India. India cannot progress unless all these AHs are all flushed down the pakistan. Seems like $140M/year is not underfunding: it is overfunding.Perhaps time to suggest that the new mosque be at JNU or AMU - or that these be turned into veterinary hospitals. Maneka Gandy's vast pet population roaming the streets is also aging, they need better vet care.

- Pakistan minister said Supreme Court's decision on Babri mosque which he said was not in line with Unesco's values of religious freedom

- In response, India said threat to the most important fundamental right, the right to life, comes from Pakistan-backed terrorist groups

PARIS: India has lambasted Pakistan's juvenile propaganda over the Supreme Court's historic verdict on Ayodhya land dispute and Kashmir's transformation into union territories, saying the 'fabricated lies is interference in India's internal affairs.'

"Mr President, we take this chair to refute Pakistan's juvenile propaganda to malign India through fabricated lies, full of deceit and deception. We condemn the unwarranted comments made by Pakistan on the judgment made by the Supreme Court of India. The judgment is about the rule of law, equal respect for all faiths, concepts that are alien to Pakistan and its ethos," an Indian official said while addressing the 40th Unesco General Conference - General Policy Debate here.

"So, while Pakistan's lack of comprehension is not surprising their pathological compulsion to comment on our internal affairs with the obvious interest of spreading hatred is condemnable. Pakistan's intervention is interference in India's internal affairs. It is unacceptable and rejected," she added.

The remarks came after Pakistan's education minister Shafqat Mahmood expressed his dismay at the Indian Supreme Court's decision on Babri mosque which he said was not in line with Unesco's values of religious freedom

"We are therefore dismayed to see that the highest court in India to virtually condone the destruction of centuries-old mosques sacred to Muslims. The international community should take note of this injustice," he told the Chair.

In response, the Indian official said that for India, the most important fundamental right is the right to life. Globally the single largest threat to this right is from terrorism, she added.

"Tragically, the reality facing us is that Pakistan is the world's largest producer and exporter of this evil. Pakistan's political approaches are rooted in terrorist violence and its global engagement is defined by mainstreaming of terrorism as an instrument of statecraft," she said.

Meanwhile, lashing out at Pakistan over its time and again rhetoric on Kashmir, the Indian official said, "The Union territories of Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh have always been ours and shall always be an integral part of India and this includes the territory that is currently under the illegal and forcible occupation of Pakistan."

On August 5, the central government had repealed Article 370 and Article 35A that granted special powers to the region and bifurcated the former state into two Union Territories (UTs)- Jammu and Kashmir with legislature and Ladakh without one.

The new UTs came into existence on October 31.

The decision, however, rattled Pakistan who further raised the matter in front of every international forum but failed to garner enough support.

The Indian official further raised certain questions to expose Pakistan's fabricated lies and deception to malign India.

"In which country were the perpetrators of 9/11 and 26/11 discovered?," the official asked the gathering.

"Where were Osama Bin Laden and Mullah Omar discovered?"

"Which country is home to 130 UN-designated terrorists and 25 terrorist entities listed by the United Nations as of today?" she continued further.

"Which is the country where organisations such as Hizb-ul-Mujahideen, Jamaat ud Dawa, Lashkar-e-Taiba, and many other banned terrorist outfits openly conduct their activities, collect funds from the street and run their offices with the active support of the state machinery?"

"The Army of which country massacres millions of its own citizens just because they spoke a different language?" she said.

"The answer to these questions is Pakistan," the official said.

In her concluding remarks, the official said that the global community certainly does not need Pakistan- a hub of global terrorism- to be waxing eloquent on internal affairs of India. Indeed the entire, peace-loving members of Unesco wouldserve humanity well by coming together to impress upon Pakistan to be a normal country and to eschew preaching, practising and propagating terrorism, she added.

^^^ How many of these mohtermas represent India? Calm, collected, dispassionate and devastating. Not 2 mention other things which are non-merit. Like watching Tendulkar, Sehwag, Rohit and Dhawan all batting at the same time. I think they should simplify the terminological exercises and just start laughing outright. Maybe quote from the BENIS dhaga. "Juvenile" is a nice addition to the vocabulary. But "condemnable" is not nearly as good as "hiarious". WTF cares about Pakistan being "condemned" unless the Note of Condomnation is delivered to Isloo by missile warhead?

UlanBatori wrote:That is a wonderful point, AP. It would be a historic blunder, to go rushing in and put imported marble on top of the sacred foundations and structure a la Swaminarayan mandir, Dilli.

Do you KNOW what the original Ram Mandir there looked like? I don't, and cannot guess. But given the ruins that can be retried, I think ASI and scripture experts can reconstruct this, given time and peace. Many PhD theses.

I think one should file a Stay Betishun in Indian SC to demand that ASI systematically dig down as far and around as needed to excavate all human- or vanara-built structure signs from the area, to be as systematically rebuilt elsewhere to display. {For all we know the Ram Mandir may have been built on the ruins of the Dasaratha temple...} THEN, and then only, build the new Mandir. Otherwise todin's yindoos will be even more guilty of sacrilege than the savages who came from Afghanistan centuries ago. Where do we start this campaign?

The ASI is underfunded. If anything that comes out of this verdict, it should be that the ASI be given better resources as it integral to Hindu culture. ASI has an annual budget of Rs. 975 crore or about $140 million. There is literally a treasure trove of historical-religious sites all across India which are too numerous to mention that go back thousands of years. The ASI should be the repository for Indian history for use by academics and religious institutions across the world.

i have strong suspicion of ASI and other such organizations. Based on the prominence accorded to a lot of mughal/peaceful artifacts left in India and the pro mughal agenda fed to generations by Romila thapar and other instis in name of IG, JLN. I would be prefer to have a top down clean up first. Else the money would go to fund how peaceful aurangjeb was to keep angs in his jeb

Mort Walker wrote:The ASI is underfunded. If anything that comes out of this verdict, it should be that the ASI be given better resources as it integral to Hindu culture. ASI has an annual budget of Rs. 975 crore or about $140 million. There is literally a treasure trove of historical-religious sites all across India which are too numerous to mention that go back thousands of years. The ASI should be the repository for Indian history for use by academics and religious institutions across the world.

i have strong suspicion of ASI and other such organizations. Based on the prominence accorded to a lot of mughal/peaceful artifacts left in India and the pro mughal agenda fed to generations by Romila thapar and other instis in name of IG, JLN. I would be prefer to have a top down clean up first. Else the money would go to fund how peaceful aurangjeb was to keep angs in his jeb

ASI is a bureaucracy, all right, but they are not the same as the eminent historian types, who operate out of an ivory tower called ICHR. The fact that someone like K.K. Mohammed rose to prominence in the ASI despite being at odds with Irfan Habib and his clique shows they are different organizations. Not to mention the ASI has consistently maintained that there are structures beneath the babri masjid well before the Allahabad HC directed excavation (they did an excavation in the eighties and K.K. Mohammed was part of that team), and that's why he says strongly that there is no doubt about the Ram temple at that spot.

Yes sir, I am very well aware of the KKM ji and can't be thankful enough to him. I have my fears about the ICHR types and the decades of ideological brainwashing....i sincerely hope my fears are misplaced...

हिरण्यरेता@Hiranyareta·13hAlong with tallest Moorti of Sri Rama in the Saryu river, we Hindus demand three Moortis of Varaha Bhagwan placed on the remaining three corners of Ayodhya.

Every Tom Dick and Harry has an opinion on how the Ram Mandir has to be built.

Those who don't know agamas demand world's largest moorthi.

Agamas say that the moorthi should be in 'garbha gudi'. Which means those who want to have darshan have to go from front and come back from front, just like "garbha". What goes inside has to come out from the same route.

Best is to give the responsibility of construction of the temple to "puri Shankaracharya". Idiots like yogi Adityanath who don't know traditions should be kept away as far as possible. Otherwise it will be another ISKON temple, grandeur yes, but no power.

हिरण्यरेता@Hiranyareta·13hAlong with tallest Moorti of Sri Rama in the Saryu river, we Hindus demand three Moortis of Varaha Bhagwan placed on the remaining three corners of Ayodhya.

Every Tom Dick and Harry has an opinion on how the Ram Mandir has to be built.

Those who don't know agamas demand world's largest moorthi.

Agamas say that the moorthi should be in 'garbha gudi'. Which means those who want to have darshan have to go from front and come back from front, just like "garbha". What goes inside has to come out from the same route.

Best is to give the responsibility of construction of the temple to "puri Shankaracharya". Idiots like yogi Adityanath who don't know traditions should be kept away as far as possible. Otherwise it will be another ISKON temple, grandeur yes, but no power.

For someone who talks about agamas has scant respect for head of a mutt.

हिरण्यरेता@Hiranyareta·13hAlong with tallest Moorti of Sri Rama in the Saryu river, we Hindus demand three Moortis of Varaha Bhagwan placed on the remaining three corners of Ayodhya.

Every Tom Dick and Harry has an opinion on how the Ram Mandir has to be built.

Those who don't know agamas demand world's largest moorthi.

Agamas say that the moorthi should be in 'garbha gudi'. Which means those who want to have darshan have to go from front and come back from front, just like "garbha". What goes inside has to come out from the same route.

Best is to give the responsibility of construction of the temple to "puri Shankaracharya". Idiots like yogi Adityanath who don't know traditions should be kept away as far as possible. Otherwise it will be another ISKON temple, grandeur yes, but no power.

Respect please. You could have just said, "he doesn't know Vaishnava Agamas/rituals because he is a Sanyashi or he is from Nath tradition"

The RJB land is vested with the central government which has yet to decide on the trust that will takeover and get the Temple constructed. Yogi may get the leading role or he may not. It is still early days.

The construction of the statue was an old promise of Yogi and should not be linked with the RJB trust which has yet to be formed. Other wanting more statues are just their garam hawa.

So based on garam hawa and no understanding around the issues involved we've started disrespecting and cursing leaders and religious figures! Astounding show of intellect.

he is loose cannon. don't take his words seriously. the reason rama is loved more than any other avatar is, his easy access. he will respond to you no matter what way you worship. the love of the artisans who are carving the stones for the mandir, is more than enough for ramayya to get back to ayodhya. bhakhti is the main ingredient here not the shastras.

x-posted from the KL, TN, AP thread...Govt must read 'extremely important' dissent order in Sabarimala verdict: Justice Nariman.The bias of the judge seems to be now coming out in the open. It is basic knowledge that the dissenting judgement has no meaning when it comes to taking any actions. He seems to be pi$$ed of with the fact that even issues related to Parsi community has now got clubbed with the Hindu religion based issues. The fact that a Malayalam news paper published this with great prominence also shows that who actually pays the piper (and call the tune) in Kerala.

Sachin wrote:x-posted from the KL, TN, AP thread...Govt must read 'extremely important' dissent order in Sabarimala verdict: Justice Nariman.The bias of the judge seems to be now coming out in the open. It is basic knowledge that the dissenting judgement has no meaning when it comes to taking any actions. He seems to be pi$$ed of with the fact that even issues related to Parsi community has now got clubbed with the Hindu religion based issues. The fact that a Malayalam news paper published this with great prominence also shows that who actually pays the piper (and call the tune) in Kerala.

Yes the Kerala communist must read the dissenting judgement and do what it thinks is the best. Haven't they just completed their door to door "forgiveness yatra". Does it want those very people to judge them as liars so soon and transfer their vote to others for ever?

- Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind (JuH), a key Muslim litigants, has decided not to accept 5 acres of land elsewhere to build a mosque in Ayodhya.

- In another big decision, JuH did not rule out the possibility of going for a review of the SC verdict.

- A five-member fact-finding committee would seek legal opinion on the issue.

LUCKNOW: Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind (JuH), a key Muslim litigant in the Ayodhya title suit, has decided not to accept the 5-acre alternative land for building a mosque as mandated by the Supreme Court. After its working committee meeting in Delhi on Thursday, the Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind said that nothing would be acceptable as an “alternative” to a mosque, be it money or land.

In another big decision, JuH did not rule out the possibility of going for a review of the Supreme Court verdict. In another big decision, JuH did not rule out the possibility of going for a review of the Supreme Court verdict.

A five-member fact-finding committee to be headed by its president, Arshad Madani, would seek legal opinion on the issue.

“Two crucial decisions were taken in the working committee meeting. One pertained to the five-acre alternative land for a mosque and the other possibility of filing a review plea. The working committee unanimously decided there can be no ‘badal’ (alternative) of a mosque for anything in the world. Neither money nor land,” said UP chief of JuH, Maulana Ashhad Rashidi, who was present in the meeting.

‘Won’t be right for any Muslim outfit to accept a barter’ It won’t be right for any other Muslim organisation to accept a barter,” he said

On the question of the review petition, Maulana Rashidi told TOI, “A committee of five members headed by Arshad Madani will in a couple of days go through court documents and seek legal opinion from JuH’s own lawyers and other Supreme Court lawyers to get a perspective before taking the next step.”

Founded in 1919, Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind is one of the most influential and financially sustainable Muslim organisations in the country that completed 100 years in India. It was an active member of the Khilafat movement and freedom struggle, while also opposing Partition.

For centuries the Kaaba, the black cube in the center of Mecca, Saudi Arabia that is Islam’s holiest point, has been encircled by arched porticos erected some three centuries ago by the Ottomans, above dozens of carved marble columns dating back to the 8th century. But earlier this month, any vestiges of the portico and columns were reduced to rubble, cleared to make way for the Saudi government’s expansion of Mecca’s Grand Mosque.

The $21 billion project, launched in 2011, is designed to meet the challenges of accommodating the millions of pilgrims who visit Mecca and Medina every year. Around 2 million currently visit during Hajj alone, the annual pilgrimage that happens during the last month of the Islamic calendar. But activists charge that the recent destructions are part of a much wider government campaign to rub out historical and religious sites across the Kingdom.

Over the last few years, mosques and key sites dating from the time of Muhammad have been knocked down or destroyed, as have Ottoman-era mansions, ancient wells and stone bridges. Over 98% of the Kingdom’s historical and religious sites have been destroyed since 1985, estimates the Islamic Heritage Research Foundation in London. “It’s as if they wanted to wipe out history,” says Ali Al-Ahmed, of the Institute for Gulf Affairs in Washington, D.C.

Though the Saudi rulers have a long history of destroying historical sites, activists say the pace and range of destruction has recently increased. A few months ago, the house of Hamza, the Prophet Muhammad’s uncle, was flattened to make way for a Meccan hotel, according to Irfan Al Alawi, executive director of the Islamic Heritage Research Foundation. There have even been rumored threats to Muhammad’s tomb in Medina and his birthplace in Mecca.

A 61-page report, published recently in Saudi Arabia’s Journal of the Royal Presidency, suggested separating the Prophet’s tomb from Medina’s mosque, a task “that would amount to its destruction,” Alawi says. “You can’t move it without destroying it.” Moreover, he alleges, plans for a new palace for King Abdullah threaten the library atop the site traditionally identified as the birthplace of Muhammad. Even now, signs in four languages warn visitors that there is no proof that the Prophet Muhammad was born there, “so it is forbidden to make this place specific for praying, supplicating or get [sic] blessing.”

Wahhabism, the prevailing Saudi strain of Islam, frowns on visits to shrines, tombs or religio-historical sites, on grounds that they might lead to Islam’s gravest sin: worshipping anyone other than God In recent years, the twin forks of Wahhabi doctrine and urban development have speared most physical reminders of Islamic history in the heart of Mecca. The house of the Prophet’s first wife, Khadijah has made way for public toilets. A Hilton hotel stands on the site of the house of Islam’s first caliph, Abu Bakr. Famously, the Kaaba now stands in the shade of one of the world’s tallest buildings, the Mecca Royal Clock Tower, part of a complex built by the Bin Laden Group, boasting a 5-story shopping mall, luxury hotels and a parking garage.

Saudi officials did not respond to interview requests, but in the past, they have said that the expansion project is necessary to cater to the ever-growing number of pilgrims to Saudi Arabia, a number forecast to reach 17 million by 2025. When it’s done, the expansion of the mataf, the area where the faithful circumambulate around the Kaaba, will treble its capacity, to 150,000 people; the Great Mosque will be able to hold 2.5 million.

Amir Pasic, of IRCICA, the culture organization of the 56-nation Organization of Islamic Conference, points out that the logistics for Hajj dwarf those required for a World Cup or Olympics. “Every time has the right to make changes on the existing urban set-up,” he said. “Every generation tries to develop something. The Kaaba is what’s important.”

If Mecca’s new skyline is impossible to ignore, what with 48 searchlights beaming from the top of the Clock Tower, other changes to the landscape are more insidious. “Everyone’s focused on [the two mosque expansion projects], but people are not focusing on what we’re losing in the meantime,” says Saudi activist, poet and photographer Nimah Ismail Nawwab. After blue markings appear on sites mentioned in Islamic histories, says Nawwab, then the bulldozers come–often in the dead of night. “Everything happens at night,” she told TIME by phone from Saudi Arabia. “By the next day in the morning, the monument is gone.”

It’s not just in Mecca, either. Over a year ago, the split in Mount Uhud, north of Medina, where Muhammad was said to have been carried after being wounded in the famous Battle of Uhud was filled with concrete. A fence went up at the base of the mountain, warning would-be visitors that it was just a mountain, like any other. Six small mosques in Medina where Muhammad is believed to have prayed have been locked. The seventh, belonging to Islam’s first caliph Abu Bakr, has been razed to make way for an ATM. Nawwab, along with a small group of historians and activists, has tried to raise awareness by photographing sites and starting a Twitter campaign, but says “it’s a losing battle, despite the fact that what’s being lost is not just Muslim history, but human history.”

When the Taliban blew up the Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan in 2001, they were met with international condemnation. The response to the demolition activity in the Kingdom, by contrast, has been decidedly muted. “When it comes to Mecca, as far as we are concerned it’s a Saudi question,” says Roni Amelan, a spokesman for UNESCO, the United Nation’s cultural body. The Saudi government has never submitted Mecca for inclusion on the list of World Heritage Sites. As UNESCO’s mandate requires a respect for the sovereignty of individual countries, “we don’t have a legal basis to stake a position regarding it,” adds Amelan.

Muslim governments, perhaps mindful of the power of the Saudis to cut their quotas for how many pilgrims can attend Hajj, have been strikingly silent on the issue. The Organization of the Islamic Conference has also been noticeably quiet on the destruction of the Saudi campaign. One exception has been Turkey, whose Ottoman heritage has also long been under threat. In September, Mehmet Gormez, head of the Dinayet, Turkey’s Directorate of Religious Affairs, told journalists that he told Saudi’s minister of Hajj that the skyscraper overshadowing the Kaaba “destroys history,” the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet Daily News reported. “History is being destroyed in the Holy Land each day,” he added.

For pilgrims old enough to remember the dangerous crush of crowds in the 1980s, the spate of new development may be welcome, offering a chance for comfort on their spiritual journey. For other Muslims, like Ziauddin Sardar, author of the recent Mecca: The Sacred City, the vigor of the Saudi campaign springs from financial jitters. “The Saudis know the oil is going to run out,” he said. “Hajj is already their second major source of income, after oil. They look at Dubai, and Qatar, and ask ‘what are we going to do?’ And they say, ‘We have Hajj, and we’re going to exploit it to the max.'”

Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind (JuH), a key Muslim litigant in the Ayodhya title suit

Surreptitiously going for another round after all eids swellj. Similar to litigating after HC order. The yindoo must prove everything (from God exists and then more and more) every step. How come there are not many key litigants from Indic faiths (Jain's, sikh, budhdhist) on side of yindoo while each reconciliation is 'broken' till majority/unanimous verdicts are challenge d.

The temples are 'deva aalaya', and the 'presiding deity' is the 'lord of the house'. The priests carry out the daily rituals just like the real life of a person of exalted divine stature. This is something unique to the 'saguna' worship under our SD. Even when the idol is a shapeless 'lingam', the rites and rituals are that of a person. Example, the lord Shiva of Ernakulam temple is considered as the 'feudal lord' presiding over the administrative capital of the Cochin kingdom, and till date, the temple 'aarattu' is accompanied by a guard of honor by the KL Police.

There are interesting rituals at the temple like 'going on a hunt' and when coming back, the lord sleeps outside, since hunting makes you 'unhygenic' (asuddhi, which is often translated as 'impure'). At the famous Vaikom temple, there is even a re-enactment of a family story of the lord.

Karthikeya (aka Subrahmanya, Muruga etc), the son of Lord Shiva goes to battle against Thaaraka. The lord is concerned about the well being of his son, so he does 'upavasa' and meditates for the son. Once the good news of the victory is received, he arranges a big celebration and goes out to receive him. They spend some time together, and at the time of taking leave of each other, the elephants who carry the idols does a show of reluctant parting etc. This kind of human nature plays are very common in the temple lore.

Founded in 1919, Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind is one of the most influential and financially sustainable Muslim organisations in the country that completed 100 years in India. It was an active member of the Khilafat movement and freedom struggle, while also opposing Partition.

Ah! Opposed Partition like Aurangzeb opposed Partition, mind you. The Khilafat Movement is in recent times represented by such paragons of peace as Al Mujahirroun, the ex-pat terrorist community of Pakistan.Why do they have any standing in this case?

Well.... let me try to think. SC asks MAD govt to set up foundation for (a) building the Mandir and (b) 5 acres for building the pakistans. The momeen say: "nahin, nahin, don't want 5 acres!! It eej HARAAM!"