I am glad that Argiedude is going to be tested for DF13 and, if negative, for DF63. But I am asking why nobody tried to test these Kellaways or Westwood. Difficult to find Richter, tested by SMGF and put on ySearch by me, and Soncina, who never replied to my letters.

They have some marker values in common, not only DYS19=10, and some of them DYS385=11-11, but also the high value of DYS448, modal 19, a mutation to 18 in Richter and Maddox, but Argiedude 20 and Kellaway 21 which presuppose 20. Also the low value of DYS607 (14/13) is interesting.

I make you note that the unique so far found DF13- DF63- have the rare amongst R-L21 DYS19=13 and the very rare DYS388=13 and DYS426=11 (Argiedude 13):

I'm quite impressed that everyone we know of that is L21+/DF13- has tested for DF63. Didn't I put my money on Chavez being DF63+? ;-)

So far 33% of those tested DF13- are L21** and 67% are DF63+. I find the L21** group very interesting. It be very important in understading the origins of L21. However, with only four results, it's not very useful yet.

His haplotype is worth a DF13-. Has he ever had his L21 test confirmed? Maybe he'll prove Maliclavelli right.[/quote]Well, he has an L21+ test result, but I don't think there's ever been a second opinion on it.[/quote]

Rich, I have written tons of letters about this and probably Mike remembers them very well.About R-L21 I have said that in Italy it practically doesn’t exist, being many of the few found so far of French origin, above all the Piedmontese ones, and this demonstrates that all the migrations from Central Europe to Italy didn’t happen. But the case of Argiedude, whose ancestor came from Como (Italian Lake District), and now probably also Soncina and a few others, should have had some deepen exam, and I asked that before some Italian relatives of Argiedude were tested and also were clarified his link with Kellaway/Westwood. But, once demonstrated his Italian origin, his haplotype, so different from all the other R-L21-s, could be also the witness that also R-L21 was born in the Italian Refugium and were a remnant of the first people of this haplogroup born in the Italian Lake District. Of course the rarity of this haplogroup in Italy demonstrates that the migration was from Italy to Central-North Europe and that there wasn’t return. When I wrote on Rootsweb (before the end of 2007) I remembered the Amsbury Archer, who had drunk the Alpine water.

Why did Mike say that the test of Argiedude could be a proof in favour of my theories? Because, if he were R-L21**, he would demonstrate, once more, that Italy gets the most ancient haplotypes of every haplogroup, not only R1b1, R1b1a2, R-L23/L150-, R-L51, many R-P312, the whole R-U152, but also of the “not-Italian” R-L21.

Rich, I have written tons of letters about this and probably Mike remembers them very well.About R-L21 I have said that in Italy it practically doesn’t exist, being many of the few found so far of French origin, above all the Piedmontese ones, and this demonstrates that all the migrations from Central Europe to Italy didn’t happen. But the case of Argiedude, whose ancestor came from Como (Italian Lake District), and now probably also Soncina and a few others, should have had some deepen exam, and I asked that before some Italian relatives of Argiedude were tested and also were clarified his link with Kellaway/Westwood. But, once demonstrated his Italian origin, his haplotype, so different from all the other R-L21-s, could be also the witness that also R-L21 was born in the Italian Refugium and were a remnant of the first people of this haplogroup born in the Italian Lake District. Of course the rarity of this haplogroup in Italy demonstrates that the migration was from Italy to Central-North Europe and that there wasn’t return. When I wrote on Rootsweb (before the end of 2007) I remembered the Amsbury Archer, who had drunk the Alpine water.

Why did Mike say that the test of Argiedude could be a proof in favour of my theories? Because, if he were R-L21**, he would demonstrate, once more, that Italy gets the most ancient haplotypes of every haplogroup, not only R1b1, R1b1a2, R-L23/L150-, R-L51, many R-P312, the whole R-U152, but also of the “not-Italian” R-L21.

I don't know, Gioiello.

I think I tried to contact one of the Kellaways with 19=10 way back when argiedude got his L21+ result. I'll try again. From what I saw in Ysearch, if I remember rightly, some of them were saying the name was originally French, Caillouet, or something like that. It sounds or looks like a version of Callaway to me, though.

I don't know, Gioiello.I think I tried to contact one of the Kellaways with 19=10 way back when argiedude got his L21+ result. I'll try again. From what I saw in Ysearch, if I remember rightly, some of them were saying the name was originally French, Caillouet, or something like that. It sounds or looks like a version of Callaway to me, though.

A French origin is likable, above all if they say this. In fact these Kallaways are totally different from the other Kallaways of the project and a French origin would be closer to the probable origin of the haplogroup. See also the French amongst the R-L21 (xDF13,DF63) I posted above:

Tupper, kit 26883, came up DF13- this morning. His mdka came from Sussex in England. Tupper joined the R-L21 Plus Project back in 2009 based on an L21+ result from 23andMe.

Another DF13- from the east side of England. Hmmm . . .

Hopefully, he'll test for DF63.

Every time I hear or see the surname Tupper, I think of a scene from the 1951 version of A Christmas Carol, which starred Alistair Sim as Ebenezer Scrooge. In the party scene at Scrooge's nephew's house, a young woman, mostly in jest, reproaches a young man with the line, "Mr. Tupper! You are incorrigible!" (or something very like that).

Don't know why that stuck with me, but it did. Well, I've seen that film probably a hundred times. That might be a factor. :-)

Tupper, kit 26883, came up DF13- this morning. His mdka came from Sussex in England. Tupper joined the R-L21 Plus Project back in 2009 based on an L21+ result from 23andMe.

Another DF13- from the east side of England. Hmmm . . .

Hopefully, he'll test for DF63.

Woohoo! Another DF13- bringing the total to 17. Let's hope 23andMe had that L21+ result right. I'm starting to get paranoid after the Jones incident. I really hope he tests for DF63. And I really hope he tests positive for it as a DF63- result would leave L459 and Z245 and we could possibly have the same mess once again... ;-)

Colleagues, I just learned that there is another Maddox who recently received DNA test results. He is a match to me. His kit number is 226438. He has not submitted any information that I can find about him or his family tree? Is there a way to contact him? Thanks. Bob.

Colleagues, I just learned that there is another Maddox who recently received DNA test results. He is a match to me. His kit number is 226438. He has not submitted any information that I can find about him or his family tree? Is there a way to contact him? Thanks. Bob.

Hi, Bob.

If you click on his name on your Y-DNA Matches page, his profile will come up, including his email address. Please encourage him to join the R-L21 plus Project.

Colleagues, I just learned that there is another Maddox who recently received DNA test results. He is a match to me. His kit number is 226438. He has not submitted any information that I can find about him or his family tree? Is there a way to contact him? Thanks. Bob.

Bob, can you ask the Maddox project admin to turn on the Y DNA SNP report in the GAP tool under project administration / public web site / site configuration?