I just wanted to give people a chance to discuss/think about how we want to structure the raids moving forward. In my opinion, given the cards we have been dealt as far as no guild tanks on Wednesday, having to spend time teaching new tanks on Sunday, and change of raid leader/boss strats, I think we're doing excellent. I feel the guild really wants to push hard and progress as far as we can, but I want to keep it fun and fair for everyone.

So, instead of saying "this is what we will be doing," I want to make some suggestions and see what people think.

1. Legendary ring upgrades: It's going to be a huge benefit to the guild to start upgrading these rings as fast as possible, at this point pretty much everyone that's turning up most of the time should have their rings. Not everyone has the time and effort to do valor farms every week, so a good long term payoff is simply running a normal Archimonde first thing on Wednesday each week until most people are done upgrading. It's also going to help our new tanks get a feel for the fight as we move into Heroic Archimonde hopefully within the next few weeks.

2. Addon requirements: DBM, GTFO, and to a lesser extent Weakauras are in my opinion mandatory if you want to make your boss fights easier and see mechanics coming before they happen. I have a bunch of weakauras I can share which hugely simplify boss fights, and GTFO can be a god-send if you find yourself standing in fire a bit too often. I figure everyone already has DBM or Bigwigs for pull timers, but if you don't you're missing out. If you can, please pick them up.

3. Tank gear funneling: Zed is happy to tank full time for us, and I know he's a capable player. At this point he seems to be pretty good gear wise, but the damage spikes he's going to have to deal with are only going to get larger. I'll assess it as we go on but I think we should at least get him one more piece of tier (for 2p) and possibly a weapon so he doesn't have threat issues. This is going to make life easier for everyone in the long run. I'd also love it if Briora wanted to step up as the other tank but if not we will search until we find someone. I'd rather people do what they think is fun for the long term, rather than make a sacrifice they don't want to live with. If Briora does decide to tank for us, same rules will apply.

4. Ilvl requirements: I'm pretty sure this has already been agreed upon, but after last raid I'm not too sure, and I don't want to look like an asshole. But, for the lower level an ilvl of 700 should be required. We don't want to spend more time than necessary clearing out what will be trash bosses when our tanks know the fights. A 700 ilvl req is easily fulfilled with a day or two of running around Ashran to get PvP gear; help us help you. For the upper level progression bosses, we need to have a think about this as the group progresses gear-wise, but I think a 710 requirement is fair, PvP gear and a week on the lower level will pretty much get you there. That being said, if you're over 700 and doing the DPS we need to see, I'm not going to pick on you.

5. Voice: We need everyone on voice. Not even being democratic on this one, I can't lead a raid if I can't talk to people, and frankly I don't want to try. If we can't get on voice so I can communicate with you, I don't want to lead, it's too much of a headache to be typing non-stop for 2.5 hours. Tanks also need microphones so they can talk to me and each other, everyone else just needs to listen as a minimum.

That's about all I have for now, please if you got any concerns or input speak up, above all I want to make sure everyone is having fun, but I think a big component of that is being successful at blowing up bosses together, and the above things will really help us move forward quicker. I'm not going to do anything unless we get the majority agreeing because as it stands we aren't a hardcore progression guild, and I'd rather be inclusive of as many people as possible, rather than push us to the point we burn out, and people start leaving.

Magpie I don't know what you find fun, but frankly I don't care considering you don't raid with us. Just remember the only reason I'm doing what I am is because your group tried to push the majority of Twelve out of raiding. Please, if you're not going to raid with us, keep your petty bullshit to yourself.

Personally, I think tonight was just a little fatiguing not having consistent tanks or regular turn up.But yeah, we just need to work through it and make sure we gear up our own tanks and become independent. I think the lack of turn out consistency just makes us sloppier overall.

As for funneling gear to the tanks, I have no problem with it, and I think we need to... as long as we are actually going to end up with consistent tanks...but it sounds like there was at least one that didn't seem too confident in the idea. So the only thing I'd say is that we need to make sure we don't end up alienating people from the raid because they don't feel they're getting the rewards they want/expect.

2. Addons are hard, people like different things. DBM and Iskar assist seem like the really to big ones. I think you can recommend all you want, but requiring addons just isn't viable when our raid roster changes every week.

3.I agree With Dig about the gear funneling. Very happy to do it if people are going to be permanent and actually show up for 90% of the raids.

4. With the ilvl, I think for lower it can probably be around 685+ as long as we have our core dps on and it's on farm. The reason we didn't go as far this raid I think was just because we had 2 new tanks. We should speed up lower fairly quickly in the coming weeks. Agree on 710(ish) for upper though. In the past we have helped gear up guildies who were a little lower ilvl, so that they can be included, get some experience as well as the gear. Last night we disenchanted plenty of gear that people could be using. Would be interested to hear what other people think.

5. Everyone should be on voice. I really prefer using mumble or TS though. Discord can be frustrating, but I'm happy to roll with whatever.

I hope more people contribute to the thread so we get see where everyone is at.

Now there has been a bit of poison sent your way lately but I thank you for the work you are putting and I am sure others appreciate it too. As for people with other opinions on you that is their own prerogative. Yes it would be nice to have a united guild with a single opinion but that is as difficult to achieve as world utopia. Since becoming GM I have a vision of a free twelve welcome to all members and veterans to play the game as we feel like. It's fine to me if anyone wants to raid with Twelve's team, Exit Strategy's team, or if you want to jerk off while doing drugs and tell us all about your weird hallucinations in guild chat. It doesn't matter what your purpose for playing the game is, we just like you, we like seeing your face and we want you around. We are in Twelve because we fucking love this place and we fight each other because we are passionate about it and don't want any harm to come to it. Hobz is raid leader of the guild raid team right now so you can fly with it or you can do your own thing, just don't kick a guy in the nuts for trying. Alternatively you can express your opinions of him in the correct place like these forums, or you can even chat with him over voice chat like he has told me he is willing to do.. Then if after all of that there is a united opinion that Hobz isn't the right person for the job I am sure he will be cool to stop raid leading. I want what is best for Twelve and I am not convinced yet that he isn't the right person for the job right now, but I am open to being persuaded.

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Anyway a note on your post Hobz.

I agree with everything you said in your post except I have my own feelings on point 4 I'd like to share. On a boss such as Hellfire High Council which is so easy a retarded monkey could do it I feel fine with anyone coming along to see if they can get some nice loots. I do see such newbies as investments because they might think, "Hey these guys are great, I feel encouraged to gear up and raid with these guys." Of course they are the bottom of the food chain regarding loot and if we have trouble downing a boss or they wipe the raid they must understand why we will have to remove them from the raid but challenges like that can be a good test of character to see if they are made of the right character for raiding with us, it will be easier to remove them when they are low geared than when they are high geared and feel as if they deserve everything. Anyway this is all just my own opinion and if you guys only want L700 people that's cool by me.

I don't think there's anything hard about installing addons. If anything, I imagine it has gotten even easier in the x years since I last played.

Tell people at the start of the raid that they should have them. If they fuck up due to something basic in a fight that the addon would help with, ask them if they have it installed and if they say no sub them out for someone else until they can install it. Doesn't sound too unreasonable?

Issues [in life] are generally easier to fix if everyone is using the same tools.

Regarding number 4, I'm thinking more along the lines mentioned above too, our raid needs players, and if we can carry people easily enough and they don't wipe us due to mechanics they should be able to come along to the lower level stuff.

Perhaps for the lower level, if you're outside the guild, 685+ and you only get loot that would end up being disenchanted. If you're in Twelve you can come if you don't cause wipes, but if you're under 685 you only get loot that would otherwise be disenchanted. Tier should always be reserved for "core" players, i.e. the people that turn up 90%+ of the time, or give us notice of an absence so we can plan around it.

Exception would be if we need to bring in a pug to complete the group, they're obviously going to be eligible for loot if we expect them to help us.

I think this strikes a fair balance between allowing us to be used as a free loot machine, and being accepting of as many people as possible.

@spoon, this is usually the approach I take when I lead pug groups, and I think it should apply here. Do what you want, as long as I can't tell that you haven't done what has been suggested.

I'd love if more people gave some input though. I've got decisions that need to be made so people will know what the raid will expect of everyone, and this is your chance to make a difference.

Regarding number 4, I'm thinking more along the lines mentioned above too, our raid needs players, and if we can carry people easily enough and they don't wipe us due to mechanics they should be able to come along to the lower level stuff.

YES!

But seriously, funneling gear to the tanks has been done since MC. Tanks and healers get priority imo and the dps can get the fuck in line. I'm taking my number.

I don't think there's anything hard about installing addons. If anything, I imagine it has gotten even easier in the x years since I last played.

Tell people at the start of the raid that they should have them. If they fuck up due to something basic in a fight that the addon would help with, ask them if they have it installed and if they say no sub them out for someone else until they can install it. Doesn't sound too unreasonable?

Issues [in life] are generally easier to fix if everyone is using the same tools.

Last I recall, certain addons, especially the leader/raid assist has the option to ping the raid to see who has or hasn't got the mods you need for the raid and then announce the ones that don't have it in raid chat.

Also Trist, if Tanks and healers get priority funneling on loot, you will encounter bosses which are actually a dps race instead and won't have the gear for. Funneling is good and all, but has to be done cautiously and correctly. If you are giving a tank a mythic piece which is only a slight upgrade to his current WF heroic Tier item, when it could be better for a dps with a normal, you should go with the dps.