I personally feel that violent street protest doesn't have a place in a functioning democracy, but I must be a bit unfashionable

I suppose it depends on what you mean by violent street protest [ or functioning democracy] but much of the movement on human rights and many other rights are a result of direct action - the powers that be wont give us the crumbs unless they really have to
Womens vote
Black rights in the US
Kilder trespass
Bristol Bus boycott

It's big and daft who wants to defend the EDL but not support them in what they do

I'm not defending the EDL, I'm happy to defend the right of people to hold lawful peaceful protest. Just because I don't agree with their views doesn't mean I feel the need to dismiss them

interestingly is the standpoint of the former EDL leader which is now that the EDL demonstrations actually provided a reason for Muslims to become radicalised and were fundamentally counterproductive

but of course Ernie we should just go for mass summary justice and shoot them all like your personal hero and namesake did with the political opposition, those who disagreed with him or deserted his cause

Yeh, that's it really. Although I think Tommy's point was there are loads of do-badders who are Muslim. I don't know for sure, I've only heard of that Choudary **** and that other **** who cut off that soldiers head a few months ago.

The thing is, Tommy's not the sharpest tool in the shed, and likely he appealed to those morons with skin heads who also arent particularly sharp.

If he was a bit brighter and he'd gone about things differently, maybe he'd have been more successful.

But the EDL has alcohol fueled demonstrations which are anything but peaceful, and still you support their right to hold them.

if they are not peaceful they aren't lawful, therefore they should be policed appropriately. But that's policed by the police force not by a group of self appointed vigilantes who attract their own thugs

Why don't you have the courage of your convictions and admit that you support the EDL and that it has nothing to do with "the right of people to hold lawful peaceful protest".

because I don't support them, I don't support the "former" paramilitaries that are now in political office in Northern Ireland either. These groups represent really nasty aspects of our society but we now recognise some of their political wings and have given them real power in our society.

does that mean I am on your list for the show trials and summary execution on the day of the revolution Ernesto?

"We" didn't "give" anybody in Northern Ireland power. Their electorate did that. In democratic elections. Not sure why you've tried to shoehorn your opinion on that into this thread twice. They're not related. But your incorrect statement bears correction all the same.

I suggest you ask Ernie to dig out the thread where he explains the origin of his online name

I suggest you take on board their question/point
He may have a nom de plume with links to Che but it does not mean he agrees with everything he ever said/did. I am not sure why, when someone gave you a good example, you are struggling with this rather simple concept or labouring this rather weak ad hom.

I think there are aspects of the anti fascists that are distasteful or equally keen on direct confrontation. However if you think fascism can be beaten with some tutting and pamphlet you are very much mistaken. the same may be true of revolutionary communism or extremist Islam. Extremists tend to not listen to rational debate , despite this I am trying to do it with you

Where we draw the line on direct action/violence criminality is complex and hard to quantify. I doubt a debate with big n daft will bring any clarity to this; we will see a lack of respect on both sides though.

I'm not sure that comparisons with Adams and McGuiness are entirely irrelevant here - let's look at the impact of change - regardless of whether you're comfortable with a former IRA commander being in a position of power, overall the situation for people living in Northern Ireland is much, much better than it was a couple of decades ago, and to get from there to here a lot of people have had to shift their positions an awful lot, on all sides. That's how it works in the real world.

So, as for Tommy the hooligan, what he's done this week is a good, positive thing, regardless of his motivation. A former EDL leader denounces violent thuggery and racist / Nazi messages. How can that be anything other than a good thing? Is it less of a good thing because of other things he's done and said previously? No, it's still a good thing, and I'm glad it has happened.

Sinn Fein were always a political party with a power base that would vote for them
The EDL are a protest group with no electoral mandate and no wider political aims that i am aware of so they are not identical
I agree it appears, at present, that the rejection of violence and intimidation by him is a good thing. He now has to walk the walk and prove it was heartfelt rather than expedient

Given his past ,ignoring EDL activity, he must have had one hell of an epiphany.

edlong - i suppose it depend if he's sincere or just trying to influence a possible judicial hearing that someone alluded to earlier in this thread.

I can see why you say that, but I'm not sure I'd agree that it does. In my view, if something good is done, it is still a good thing even if it was done for a bad reason. So, in this case, if it is Tommy trying to present as a reformed character for his own personal benefit, I don't think that detracts from the good that comes from the statements that he's made.

Unless of course it's all negated when he gets off in court, emerges triumphant and says "I was only kidding lads, lets go off and celebrate by burning a mosque down" in which case it would pretty much be a net bad.

?
do I think that organisations that organise violent activities, intimidate communities and undertake other illegal activities have a place in society? NO, as the former leader has stated this is what was happening at EDL marches then it's pretty obvious from my posts above that I don't support them, nor do I support their political ideology

do I support the right of people to have different view from myself and if they feel the need to undertake peaceful lawful protest? YES

do I support people who disagree with a demonstration, counter demonstrating? YES

do I think people should be demonstrating or counter demonstrating in a violent manner? NO, let the police deal with the violence in accordance with the law

Sinn Fein were always a political party with a power base that would vote for them
The EDL are a protest group with no electoral mandate and no wider political aims that i am aware of so they are not identical

not identical but there are parallels. I have a distaste of any of the former paramilitaries being in power in NI

I agree it appears, at present, that the rejection of violence and intimidation by him is a good thing. He now has to walk the walk and prove it was heartfelt rather than expedient

Given his past ,ignoring EDL activity, he must have had one hell of an epiphany

I agree, it may have been the result of "education" as he met and grew to understand the British Muslim community as part of a TV documentary