Thursday, April 14, 2016

A
California review board recommended parole for Leslie Van Houten, who
was convicted in the 1969 killings of a wealthy grocer and his second
wife.
(Nick Ut / Associated Press)

Matt HamiltonContact Reporter

A California review board recommended parole Thursday for former Charles Manson family member Leslie Van Houten, who was convicted in the 1969 killings of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca.

The
decision was issued following a hearing earlier in the day at the
California Institution for Women in Chino. Van Houten has been denied
parole 19 times since she was convicted of murder in the deaths of Leno
LaBianca, a wealthy grocer, and his second wife at their Los Feliz
home.

After the ruling is reviewed by the parole board's legal team, it will be forwarded to Gov. Jerry Brown, who could decide to block Van Houten’s release.

Cory
LaBianca, who was 21 years old when her father and stepmother were
slain, told The Times that she strongly disagreed with the parole
board's decision.

"Maybe Leslie Van Houten has been a model
prisoner," Cory LaBianca said. "But you know what, we still suffer our
loss. My father will never be paroled. My stepmother will never get her
life back. There’s no way I can agree with the ruling today. I don’t
seek revenge. I just think it's just for someone to do that to stay in
prison."

Los Angeles County Dist. Atty. Jackie Lacey, whose office
argued for Van Houten to remain behind bars, also expressed disapproval
in a statement: "We disagree with the board's decision and will
evaluate how we plan to proceed."

The youngest of Manson’s
followers, Van Houten, 66, has been considered the least
blameworthy member of the group, and has been portrayed by supporters as
a misguided teen under the influence of LSD on the night of the
killings.

A former homecoming queen from Monrovia, Van Houten did
not join in the Aug. 9, 1969, killings of Sharon Tate, the wife of film
director Roman Polanski, and four others at the Benedict Canyon home
that Tate was renting.

But the following day, then-19-year-old Van Houten joined in slaying the LaBiancas.

Van
Houten and another woman held down Rosemary LaBianca as Charles “Tex”
Watson stabbed Leno LaBianca. After Watson stabbed Rosemary LaBianca, he
handed Van Houten a knife. She testified to stabbing Rosemary at least
14 more times.

The blood of the victims was used to scrawl messages on the walls, as had been done at the Benedict Canyon home.

In
prior bids for parole, Van Houten's attorneys have characterized her as
a model inmate who has obtained a college degree behind bars and has
been active in self-help groups.

At a 2002 parole board hearing,
Van Houten said she was “deeply ashamed” of what she had done, adding:
"I take very seriously not just the murders, but what made me make
myself available to someone like Manson."

Van
Houten's attorney, Richard Pfeiffer, said he believed the two-member
board was most persuaded by her exemplary behavior behind bars.

"Since
1980, there were 18 different doctors who did psychiatric evaluations
of her. Every single one found she was suitable for parole," Pfeiffer
said.

Van Houten told her attorney that she was left "numb" by the
decision handed down Thursday. Pfeiffer said he's hopeful that Brown
chooses to grant her parole.

Charles Manson
and other members of his so-called family were convicted of killing
actress Sharon Tate and six other people during a bloody rampage in the
Los Angeles area during two August nights in 1969. Prosecutors said
Manson and his followers were trying to incite a race war that he
believed was prophesized in the Beatles' song "Helter Skelter."

"The opposition to parole has always been the name Manson,"
he said. "A lot of people who oppose parole don’t know anything about
Leslie’s conduct. Her role was bad. Everyone’s was. But they don’t know
what she’s done since then and all of the good she’s done."

Last
summer, a parole board recommended parole for Manson associate Bruce
Davis, who was convicted in the 1969 killings of Gary Hinman and Donald
“Shorty” Shea.

But in January, Brown rejected parole for the
73-year-old, stating that “Davis' own actions demonstrate that he had
fully bought into the depraved Manson family beliefs.” Davis was not
involved in the killings of the LaBiancas, Tate and four others.

I feel sorry for Leno's daughter. Who wants their parents ripped to pieces, messages drawn on their bodies, things drawn on the wall in blood, and their clothing and possessions stolen? For what? For no reason at all. Except some hippy cult leader said.

Katie you mention Leno's daughter lest we forget that sick fuck Rosemary's daughter who actually once faut for Watson's parole it make's you wonder if she had any knowledge of what happened & if her boyfriend at the time Joe Dorgan was indeed involved with the Straight Satan's M.C In my younger stupid days I was pretty tight with a very Well known New Jersey chapter of a huge well known east coast 1% bike club & trust me they are capable of absolutely anything

Let this woman out. She has spent far more time in prison than most who actually killed someone in a heinous manner. Yes what she did was wrong. But of all involved, she is the least culpable. I think 45 years is more than enough for stabbing a woman 16 times in the back that was very likely already dead. Even Tex said Leslie was hesitant.

While I am at it, I am bit tired of some of these "grieving" family members some of who never even met the victims, capitalizing on the case. They've profited from the murders themselves - writing books, Debra Tate getting her mug on a tv show, etc.... I am truly sorry for their loss and I am definitely sympathetic about the victims. They keep saying, "well they've never shown remorse or apologized". People those convicted cut stab themselves in front of the victims' families in an effort to demonstrate remorse, and that would not be enough. Leslie was 19 years old, she got mixed up in the drug culture of the 60s, manipulated by a con-man, hesitantly stabbed a very likely deceased woman in the back - let her go.

Ah, there is the rub, "very Likely" dead. There has been no definitive determination that Rosemary LaBianca was dead, that is something that LVH has relied upon for years now, in an attempt, I believe to ease her own guilt.

Whether she was the "least culpable" or not, she was an active participant in the commission of two murders, not one. That brings the time served per murder to just over Twenty years each, which is not much. Why is it that when presented with the question of how much time is your own family member's life is worth, those who push for LVH's release never answer?

Sixteen stab wounds is not an act of hesitancy, more accurately it is an act of frenzy. Showing remorse is not, in my opinion, enough to justify release, but rather the first step in owning one's own acts, while being punished for committing a brutal crime of the worst magnitude. There are some things you just cannot bring yourself back from...

Hi William. I agree, Rosemary's daughter's behavior is shady at best. I don't know if we'll ever know if she was involved.

Thanks Dill, I totally agree with everything you said!

Hi Donna, I'm not sure what family members you're talking about. I'm assuming that Leno's daughter knew Leno & Rosemary and I know that Debra knew 4 of the 5 Cielo Drive victims.

People those convicted cut stab themselves in front of the victims' families in an effort to demonstrate remorse, and that would not be enough.

I'm not sure what that means, but if you're saying the killers pretend to stab themselves to show remorse, that's macabre. That's not how they show remorse where I come from. I think if they truly had remorse, they'd quit trying to get out.

And I think I'll add Jodi Arias to the list. Not quite the same scenario, but it was a gruesome killing in the victim's home. She didn't get the death penalty, but she will be in prison for life, without parole.

Disagree with the idea that she hesitantly stabbed a 'very likely dead' woman in the back so, after all this time, let her go.

Before she supposedly 'hesitantly stabbed'...Leslie Van Houten put a pillowcase over Rosemary LaBianca's head and secured it with a cord around Rosemary's neck ...the electrical cord to a heavy lamp....with her desperate victim trying to swing that lamp back at her.... And let's say she really was dead, or as Lvh has said "I felt she was" ....who stabs a dead woman sixteen times? Is that not desecration...? Desecration of the remains of a woman you anchored in place with a pillow case over her head, fought with, and then called in a mad man to hack up, ensuring her death? So...she's been in for forty some years it's time to let her go? What about Leno?..she knew he was there, knew he was being killed. She walked right past him. Alive and dead. She placed no value on the lives of Rosemary and Leno, no horror at the terror Rosemary endured on hearing her husband being butchered in the living room. And those sixteen stab wounds to "the lower back" ...the more she did it, the easier it got....according to Leslie herself.

Leslie Van Houten entered a private home knowing full well they were there to kill. She knew her companions had slaughtered people the night before, and wanted to go this time...wanted to prove herself, and when asked "why?" several parole hearings back, her own recollection was "because I thought it needed to be done." And after she entered the house, she helped herself to knives in the kitchen. And when the slaughter was done, she stepped over the dead woman, went thru her closet for clothes, carefully wiped down fingerprints, took a little snack from the kitchen, played with the dog, hung out in the bushes, flirted with a stranger who gave her lift etc etc

The door hasn't been opened yet. I remember a few parole hearings back,...the board seemingly sympathetic to her situation, and then the facts of the home invasion and vicious slaughter of two people came out in all its monstrous detail, and they were absolutely horrified. The door that appeared to be opening was slammed shut real fast. And for many years afterward...because of the vicious "callous disregard" for human life. People argued back and forth that the only real criteria for denial was whether she was still a danger. Not true.

She looks terrible, and obviously has had her teeth replaced with poorly fitting dentures. If the dentures were a proper fit, maybe she wouldn't look so pathetic and decrepit. But whatever, she's getting dental treatment, as she should.

Whether Leslie Van houten's parole recommendation is upheld or not, my heart aches for Leno's sweet daughter, Corey. She speaks as a loving daughter to her father, and, always, with very warm regard for her stepmother, Rosemary. They suffered unspeakably...and not from hesitant acts of a timid little hippie girl, but deliberate acts of a nineteen year old adult woman intent on proving herself capable of murder.

I agree with everything you are saying. Leslie can say what she wants now, but at the time, murder seemed to be an every day event to her. Didn't bother her a bit. I think she just wanted to fit in with the older kids, Tex & Pat. It was like an "initiation". She passed.

It didn't bother her to rifle thru Rosemary's closet, didn't bother her to run around wiping for prints, stepping over the bodies of both victims, that stuff didn't bother her a bit.

I feel badly for Leno's kids and also Rosemary's son, who had to find their bodies. He probably has never recovered from that. I can't imagine having to find your own mother lying on the floor with stab wounds all over her, her buttocks exposed for the world to see, blood smeared on the floor where she tried to crawl while these monsters were on top of her, stabbing her to death.

Pat made the comment that the family would "come to Sunday dinner and find the bodies". They all thought it was funny. Leslie can get all the degrees in the world, join all the self help groups, work with other prisoners, etc. all she wants. But that will never make up for what she did that night.

I watched a guy on HLN today commenting on whether Leslie would get out or not. He made several comments that I agree with:

Some people are in prison for life to ensure that the public is safe from them. Prison is about rehabilitation, but some crimes are so heinous, that it matters not what the criminal accomplished while incarcerated, it doesn't warrant their release. It's about Justice for the victim(s)!

Katie, I would modify that just a bit to say that it is justice for society, for there can never truly be justice for the victims, as there is nothing that can bring them back. However, we all have a social contract with each other, and that contract is kept in force by the laws that society enact and impose on all of us. As such, when one violates one of those social, and legal, agreements, it is to society that the debt is due.

That being said, those laws, and their interpretation, change over time, both by definition, and by politics. We are seeing that now in so many facets of day to day living. What was once illegal is now kinda illegal. What was once absolute is now a grey area. What was once just is now open to interpretation.

In addition, let's not forget, Leslie was eager to be selected by Manson for this mission. She WANTED to go along (for the evening's festivities). And that's by her own account of the situation... not mine.

And, who can forget her smug laughter, singing, and skipping around the courthouse with her two idiot friends, Frick and Frack.Those girls showed total disregard for the misery they had inflicted on other humans.

My only other comment, is that Leslie looks like a sea hag. Damn, father time is a bitch.

Hi Katie...as always for you too, and Lynyrd :), and Venus...Venus, you have so many great contributions here...my favorite is still the Michele Morgan original Cielo interior.

Just realized I said she was 19, but she was actually two weeks shy of her 20th birthday, not that it makes much of a difference in arguing whether she was a stupid little runaway, or an adult woman capable of murder. I think she proved herself capable of murder, and was held accountable as the adult she was...

Anyone else find the word "granted" a bit premature in so many articles and headlines describing the outcome of her parole hearing this week? At this point, shouldn't it correctly be "recommended?" Some articles do say recommended, but just as many others say "granted."

So..either I'm over thinking this or just annoyed at yet another misstatement in the media about TLB, but I think it should be recommended, since it still has to go to a full review...which probably is next to nothing, with Governor Brown having the final say. And I think she has a snowball's chance with the governor. I believe he will cite the brutality of the crimes, more than one victim, conspiracy etc etc. It simply isn't true that danger to society is the only criteria, as many of her supporters like to say when they declare 'they must, they must, (let her out) it's the law!' If there is one thing we've all learned through years of tlb chatting (and Susan's deathbed parole hearing) it's no...they don't have to let her out. And after 46 years, LVH must know it too.

lest we forget that sick fuck Rosemary's daughter who actually once fought for Watson's parole

One could argue that statement says a lot more about you than it does about Suzan LaBerge.There again, maybe not. Maybe it actually tells us something about someone's capacity to forgive in the most horrendous circumstances. Something that many of us cannot do, even though we may not have faced what she had to face and come through the resulting nervous breakdown.

Donna Nelson said...

I think 45 years is more than enough for stabbing a woman 16 times in the back that was very likely already dead

Leslie was not a medical practitioner. Rather like Charlie with Lotsapoppa and Tex with Wogiciech Frykowski, there seemed to be these assumptions made about when someone was dead and in those two cases they were false assumptions. All Leslie could see was a woman lying there not moving or making noises. Now, I don't doubt that she thought Rosemary was dead. She told that to Diane Lake & Marvin Part in '69, she told it to Maxwell Keith during the penalty phase in the trial. She's upheld that for nearly half a century. But it's besides the point. Leslie says she stabbed Rosemary around 14 or 16 times {the figures kind of vary between those 2} but only 13 of the stab wounds were post mortem so even if all 13 of them were attributable to Leslie, that still means 1 or 3 were while she was alive.So any way you look at it, that puts that one to bed. At least one of the wounds came while Rosemary was alive.

Dilligaf said...

There has been no definitive determination that Rosemary LaBianca was dead, that is something that LVH has relied upon for years now, in an attempt, I believe to ease her own guilt

I genuinely believe that Leslie believed back then that Rosemary was dead. I don't think it eases her guilt because it came out during the trial that only 13 of the wounds occurred after death so she's had to live with that for 45 years. But even if Rosemary had already been dead, so what ? There's no definitive proof Susan Atkins actually caused anyone's death by her hand but her role in the murders necessitated that she be locked up. The TLB case is interesting because there's an incendiary mixture of those that actively killed and those that did not. But at least two of those that did not {Manson & Atkins} in my opinion were every bit as dangerous as Pat & Tex. Ideas, compliance and support can play as vital a role as actually doing the deed. Leslie's role even if she hadn't touched a knife may still have netted her what she got, particularly given that she didn't do what Linda did and show remorse.

Sixteen stab wounds is not an act of hesitancy, more accurately it is an act of frenzy

Not necessarily. I would say it depends on how it's done. If you've got time and you are moving slowly, that could show hesitancy. It might not be frenzied at all.But to be honest, I can't see what difference it makes whether it was frenzied or hesitant. It was done. I don't see that it being hesitant makes it somehow less brutal. One could even argue that there is an unthinking quality to a frenzied attack but a more thought out one to a hesitant attack.

Showing remorse is not, in my opinion, enough to justify release

I totally agree with that. I think Susan and Leslie were remorseful within three or so years of incarceration but I wouldn't have considered releasing them in the 70s. Or even the 80s. And possibly even the 90s.

but rather the first step in owning one's own acts, while being punished for committing a brutal crime of the worst magnitude

Agreed with that also. But there comes a time when that remorse has accomplished that. And I think that point could arguably be reached after 47 years.

There are some things you just cannot bring yourself back from...

I don't go with that though. It's too one dimensional and rigid and does not take into account so many nuances and variables.I would hope all you guys in the US of A have been spared this TV show we've had here for 30 years, "Eastenders," a real bona fide soap opera that shows no sign of abating ! Anyway, in it's first few years, one of it's main characters was a guy known as Dirty Den, he was a promiscuous pub landlord and probably the most popular character on the show. There was mourning when he was written out of the series the first time. This guy was much loved and the actor that played him, Leslie Grantham, was a national treasure. Well, he was a convicted murderer. 20 years before "Eastenders" he'd murdered a taxi driver out in Germany. He'd shot the guy in the head.He was more or less the same age as Leslie, 20. He only served 10 years despite getting a life sentence. He turned his life around and arguably came back from murder.He's not the only person that has ever done that either.Love him or hate him, Steve Grogan has remained free of trouble and been a productive member of society since '85.Some cons remain pretty much where they were at at the time of their offences for ever and a day. But there are others that do eventually move from that place. Not every criminal occupies the same mental headspace.Although you say 23 years isn't much for a person's taken life, I don't think numbers of years should be put on a person's life. How in the world do you quantify that ? I agree with you that the debt a prisoner pays is to the society at large but the society will be contained of people that have such a wide spectrum of what is and what isn't appropriate. So much changes over the years.

Misguided perhaps. Shady ? I would throw out the challenge that anyone that claims to believe in the statement that Christ gave those that choose to follow him, "forgive us our sins as we forgive those have sinned against us," cannot regard anyone who actually lives that as shady.Personally, I think she showed true Godliness in forgiving and meeting with Tex but immaturity in supporting his parole at that time.Forgiveness is a curious thing though. Some people may find it a whole lot easier to forgive someone that murdered their kin than they would to forgive another child of something that happened when they were kids or if their brother/sister had sex with their husband/wife.

So, who are these "far worse killers" that are running around free now?

Oh come on, you gave 4 examples. I'm sure you can find examples of murderers that have been paroled.

Rosemary's son, who had to find their bodies. He probably has never recovered from that. I can't imagine having to find your own mother lying on the floor with stab wounds all over her, her buttocks exposed for the world to see, blood smeared on the floor

One thing I'm thankful for is that Frank never did have to find his Mum in that situation. As soon as he and Joe Dorgan saw saw Leno, they split. I would have done the same.

Leslie can get all the degrees in the world, join all the self help groups, work with other prisoners, etc. all she wants. But that will never make up for what she did that night

That's true. She herself has said similar. But far better that she did receive help and be willing to make the strides she has than to remain the person she was in her teens and early 20s.

a guy on HLN said....

Prison is about rehabilitation, but some crimes are so heinous, that it matters not what the criminal accomplished while incarcerated, it doesn't warrant their release

Which only goes to show that that guy doesn't really believe in rehabilitation.Rehabilitation is about preparing a person for re~entry into society. That involves a number of things but it is not about prisoner perfection.

SurelyYouJest said: Far worse killers than her have been released into society

So, who are these "far worse killers" that are running around free now?

Leaving out the word "worse" for a moment, there have been killers set free. When Pat, Susan and Leslie were on the women's version of death row {the special segregated unit} there were two other women there, Jean and Linda, both also sentenced to death. The Jean had murdered an elderly woman during a robbery in her house, the Linda had murdered her lover's wife. Both were paroled in less than 10 years.I wonder what became of them.

Dilligaf said...

However, we all have a social contract with each other, and that contract is kept in force by the laws that society enact and impose on all of us. As such, when one violates one of those social, and legal, agreements, it is to society that the debt is due

Equally, those that enact those laws have certain provisions within some of those laws such as life with the possibility of parole. And certain of the society agree with that too.That's democracy.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Those girls showed total disregard for the misery they had inflicted on other humans

And they got the results their behaviour dictated. But they didn't remain in that state. Various people within the prison services believed that they could be brought back because their behaviour and apparent nonchalance during the trial was shocking. It was almost an affront to let them continue in that mode of being. A number of people lambast that sort of thinking as that of liberals who secretly think that everyone is nice deep down but in truth, the likes of Leslie and Pat are the end result of people that believed in second chances.I personally think it says much for America that there exists within your various systems, the capacity to help turn an offender around.

I agree Marliese, the media makes it sound like Van Skankston has her bags packed and she's ready to hop a train. She's got a long way to go before her final outcome is decided.

Grim, You cited 2 murderers who were released. I was talking about statements that were made that murderers who committed "more heinous murders" have been released. I don't think the 2 you cited were "more heinous" than TLB. I'm not talking about Joe Blow who shot someone holding up a liquor store. I'm talking home invasions and killing multiple people they didn't even know, for no reason at all. Just like TLB.

The examples I gave are similar to TLB: home invasions with multiple murders. And in those examples, the murderers will never be free again. In fact, the example I gave of the murders of the Petit family in CT are very similar to TLB, including the fact that the death penalty was abolished AFTER they were given the death penalty, but their sentences changed to life W/O parole. So they're not getting a free ride, unlike the TLB killers.

I don't think the 2 you cited were "more heinous" than TLB. I'm not talking about Joe Blow who shot someone holding up a liquor store

You might not be so blasé if the person Joe Blow shot in the liquor store was one of your loved ones. Why is a shooting to death of someone in a liquor store hold up somehow lower down the league table than a home invasion ? How awful a murder is isn't dependent on where it took place.The person that you quoted said that far worse killers than Leslie have been released into society and would continue to be. That of course can only be subjective.By the way, I never said the two female murderers that were released were more or less heinous, I was just pointing out that the notion of convicted murderers being paroled is not an unusual one and in the cases I cited both had been sentenced to death initially. And of course there was Steve Grogan. And someone could argue that offing your lover's wife or breaking into an old woman's home to rob her then killing her is worse than what Leslie did. I wouldn't argue it either way.

Hey Grim I don't watch EastEnders but I do watch Coronation Street and Hollyoaks. I have a thing about the UK and a thing about Soap Opera's. Do you think less of me now? Which is more indicative of life in the UK, Coronation Street or Hollyoks? I've been to the UK once, spent my 23 birthday in Dublin. I had a lot of fun but was drinking most of the time. I outgrew alcohol by my 30's couldn't handle the hangovers, and would love to see your country sober.

Grim I guess I emphasized home invasions because our homes are our sanctum sanctorum. Our holy of holies. Our place of rest. Our pièces de résistance.

When you go in public, you are putting yourself into a grid of danger. Albeit minor danger, but danger nontheless.

But when you are at home, you are comfortable, with the doors and windows locked, maybe putting your feet up on the easy chair, maybe watching your favorite TV show, maybe lying in front of the fire and relaxing, or maybe lying in your own bed under 5 quilts, feeling warm and comfy. And the last thing you worry about is someone breaking the door down, or breaking a window to gain entry.

And I have no idea why Clem got out. He must have negotiated some deal. Not my idea of fair.

I don't watch EastEnders but I do watch Coronation Street and Hollyoaks. I have a thing about the UK and a thing about Soap Opera's. Do you think less of me now?

Ha ha, not at all. There have been times when Eastenders {and many of the soaps actually} has been pretty good. The operative word being 'been.'

Which is more indicative of life in the UK, Coronation Street or Hollyoaks?

It's hard to say. Up until fairly recently, each soap represented a particular region of the country so there would be "Crossroads" for Birmingham, "Emmerdale Farm" {before it became just "Emmerdale"} for Yorkshire, "Coronation Street" for Manchester, "Brookside" for Liverpool and so on and so forth. "Eastenders" was specifically tailored to the East end of London. I remember at the time thinking that it was logical that they should have a London soap. {"Hollyoaks" is set in Chester which is a city that few people seem to care about here. I used to have a soft spot for the place back in the 70s because they had a football team that went on some dazzling giant killing escapades}. They all seemed to be very taken up with their regions. I had a mate from New Zealand who used to say he couldn't understand the British fascination with soaps. He would ask me "why would people want to watch TV shows that depict their own lives ?" and I used to laugh and say he just didn't understand. People got tired of every drama being about someone or involving people that they couldn't relate to that sounded like they had a plum in their mouth and worked for the BBC in the 50s. So all the soaps, when put together showed the great variety of people and accents that existed in the UK. But globalization and political correctness has changed that somewhat. Now you get kids programmes about remote Scottish islands with populations of 125 and Black American artists and sporty Nigerians among the cast which doesn't happen in real life and the regionalisation in the general soaps is much much less. They seem much more standardized and the same themes seem to turn up in them all. Pretty much most of the soaps could almost be cast anywhere in the country.

Dublin

Believe it or not, Dublin isn't in the UK. But it is part of the British Isles.When the Scots were having their independence referendum a couple of years back and the big wigs were trying to persuade them to stay as part of the UK, they would say "we mustn't begin to break up the UK, we've been together for so long and so successfully" and I kept wanting to scream out "What about the Republic of Ireland ?" Ireland split from the UK less than 100 years ago.

would love to see your country sober

I feel a similar way about Denmark. I had wanted to go there for so long because when I was a playworker, I read that the original adventure playgrounds were in Denmark and I really wanted to see some. So with some friends, I drove through the night in the most fearsome rainstorm I've ever been in, from what was then West Germany, to Denmark. I had a stonking great cold and felt awful. For the whole time I was in Denmark, I kept falling asleep and missed most of it. The only excitement I recall was a wild boar nearly knocking over our car in a safari park.

I guess I emphasized home invasions because our homes are our sanctum sanctorum

I agree.

When you go in public, you are putting yourself into a grid of danger. Albeit minor danger, but danger nonetheless

I partly agree with that although that can depend where you live !That said, the crimes aren't worse just because they occur in the home if they involve loss of life or traumatic episodes like being held at knife or gunpoint.

And I'm talking about killers who invade homes who don't even know the victims

It's an interesting debate point as to which would be worse. Some could argue that it's actually worse to be robbed/raped/beaten up/killed by someone that is known, depending on the nature of the relationship.

She's got a long way to go before her final outcome is decided

I think that's true. I wouldn't be surprised if the Guv'nor put the kibosh on it. But equally, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't.Sooner or later if he doesn't die first, Bruce Davis is going to be released. It would be kind of hard for someone who has three or four times been found suitable for parole to suddenly not be.And although there will probably always be debate as to whether or not Clem should have gotten out when he did, fact is, he did. And apart from the odd 'outing' of him, not a peep has been heard about him in 31 years, which indicates that the Guv'nor will long have that fly in his ointment. People say Grogan did this deal and others add that showing the authorities Shorty's body burial site got him off but it was 8 years between the finding of Shorty and Grogan's release.Leslie may indeed have a while to wait.

So a friend of mine, who is a sitting Superior Court judge, and our wives, decided to drive to Moss Landing yesterday to have cioppino for lunch, and then head over to Monterey for martini's. LVH's parole came up in conversation and something struck me as odd.

I have read several stories of her recommended parole, and the articles all mentioned a two member panel. I did not think much at the time, but then it dawned on me that there is a good chance that this recommendation had been decided prior to the actual hearing. What jumped out at me, as we spoke of the case, was that with a two member panel, what would happen if one member voted yes, and one member voted no. You would think that given that scenario, recommendation would be denied. But in this case, that did not happen. What are the chances that both would agree after hearing testimony from witnesses, reviewing the facts of the case, listening to counsel for both LVH as well as the DA's office? I would submit that this was merely window-dressing on a decision that was pre-determined. I had never appeared before a panel with just two members, and my friend, who was formerly The DA of his county, could not recall ever seeing that either.

Just one of those things about this case that make you go hmmmmmm.....

I must admit, I thought it was a bit strange that there were only two members on the panel. I would have thought at least three would be the right number.But your point about a somewhat predetermined outcome is the more alluring point. I think you may well be right but I also believe that about the various other parole hearings that there have been over the last 38 years. I think that sometimes, the wind blows more in the "keep 'em in" direction and other times it blows more in the "let them out" direction. You were making the point earlier about how laws change with time and I think that plays into matters. I can't speak for California but over here, one can pick up definite winds of change. There's a time when, for example, the death penalty is never on the agenda or in public discussions. Then there'll be a particularly horrendous crime or spate of them and suddenly it's part of so many public debates and it gets to a point where some will make you feel that you are either soft in the head or totally soft on crime if you don't want to see every murderer or rapist executed. Then when those that are against it are winning the day, one is made to feel a heartless pariah if one is in favour of it.If one looks at the transcript for Bobby Beausoleil's 2010 parole hearing, it is almost impossible to escape the conclusion that presiding member Anderson was biased and had prejudged the hearing.So it may work both ways. I wonder if it's actually really possible to go into the hearings as a completely neutral impartial clean slate and weigh up what one hears and then decide based on what one hears, having had absolutely no feelings or opinion in the first instance.

I just listened to the Debra interview. I like her, I feel deep sympathy for her, but.....wow.

1. She said Roman was finishing "Day of the Dolphin." Wrong. They were just doing research. Wasn't it said that Abigail had bought books for Voy to do some research for Roman? Roman said that he told Sharon on Aug. 8th that he'd be returning home at the beginning of the next week because he'd realized that he could do research in LA as easily as in London.

2. Sharon and Roman were A-list?? I think they were well-known in certain circles, but A-list? Doubtful!

3. She called all over (radio stations, fire dept, police) to find out what happened and asked to go identify the bodies?????? I really think it's unlikely, that, at her age, she would've even been allowed to do that....

4. Bill Tennant just happened to stop by? That's why he identified the bodies? From all accounts, Doris contacted Bill's wife who was a good friend of Sharon's (I think her name was Sandy) and she tracked down her husband and the rest is history....

Venus I agree, Debra has been through so much. She's lost her whole family over this stuff. These Manson killers probably don't put a lot of thought into the destruction they've caused, but the victims' families don't have any choice but to know how it has affected them. They didn't just kill the victims, they've destroyed whole families as well.

I don't think she means to mislead, I think that perhaps the memories aren't as clear as they used to be

^^^^^^I think this is the case. What I was getting at was that no one really came into TLB with the aim of remembering minute details of a random Saturday or Tuesday half a century later. Not the killers, not Bugliosi, not the investigating officers, not the initial suspects, not the killers' parents, not the families of the victims, not the defence lawyers, not the jury, not the witnesses, not the associates of any of the aforementioned, not the judge, not the stenographer..... One expects to get on with one's life and move on to other things. But every so often, an event just 'takes' and inexplicably is endowed with a life of it's own and people take an interest and in doing so pour over minute details that those involved have probably long forgotten. And we invest these details with such meaning that the slightest inconsistency, which one would tend to ignore in real life if it were us, takes on the guise of a smoking gun.....to someone.Sometimes perhaps, we assume that everyone connected with an event has a great memory or in the case of TLB, has a memory that fits some exact chronology.Few things are so exact in life. I remember well the events surrounding the births of my children but all these years later, if it were possible to present me with the exact chronology of what happened, my memory would be shown to be not as clockwork as it would seem if I described the events.

I remember the 1st story about how she found out about the murders was that she and Patti were playing with dolls. She was probably being a good, big sister and playing with her younger sibling, nothing wrong with that. Then, it changed to her being in the shower. Her mom burst in and told her. Then, it changed to her boyfriend telling her.

To me (and I'm not being judgmental, just puzzled), that'd be such an incredible shock that I don't know how you could forget where you were or what you were doing. As for the other things, yes, her memory could be getting a bit blurry on certain details.

I think that remembering births of children and remembering vicious deaths of beloved siblings are two very distinctive things.

One is a celebration of life, and the other is an oppressive dark cloud job of losing a family member, trying to grasp that it really happened, and arranging for burial.

There are some things in life that are too hard to accept. Sudden death of a loved one is one of them. I can't begin to explain what Debra is thinking. She has lost her whole family. That's gotta be a scary, lonely place.

Hi Katie, When reading today I saw you said "So, who are these "far worse killers" that are running around free now?"

I don't get to this site often enough but thought of it today when I saw this: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/a-convicted-murderer-was-released-early-for-good-behavior-months-later-he-killed-again/ar-BBsebZg?li=BBnbfcL

Of particular interest in the article is the info on the recidivism rate of released murderers. Have a nice day.

something struck me as odd.....the articles all mentioned a two member panel. I did not think much at the time, but then it dawned on me that there is a good chance that this recommendation had been decided prior to the actual hearing.......I would submit that this was merely window-dressing on a decision that was pre-determined. I had never appeared before a panel with just two members, and my friend, who was formerly The DA of his county, could not recall ever seeing that either.

Just one of those things about this case that make you go hmmmmmm.....

As I said earlier, I too thought it was odd. But looking back over past Family parole hearings going all the way back to '78, every single one of them has had parole hearings where there only two members on the panel. I could only find one instance of Pat & Tex having two {there is only one Tex transcript that I could find and 3 Pat's} panel members, but every one of the others, Leslie included, had multiple instances where there was just two members.So maybe it's not strange at all. In fact, it seems quite normal.

Keep the old c*nt locked up. She's a worthless piece of crap. No mercy! My patience is weary with all the crazy pro-Charlie people. That Manson is still able to control people at this stage of the game, should mean that none of his followers gets released because I don't trust a word she says and neither do her victims' families.

FRIENDS

"Charlie Manson is a five foot seven schizophrenic, who if it weren't for the murder of Sharon Tate, would never be known or discussed. And I'm not saying he isn't funny and entertaining. I'm saying he's a dime a dozen criminal-class punk, who had the good fortune of running into some middle class pseudo-revolutionary white girls." -- Tom G

"The simple and undeniable truth, is that Charlie and the gang were/are the biggest idiots, morons and imbeciles on the planet." -- Leary7

"Them fucking fruitcakes could not pour piss out of a boot, with the bottom written on it."--Harold True