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Topic: The "Rapture" and other Things (Read 17853 times)

I just finished a conversation with a Ukrainian Baptist friend of mine(highly influenced by Americans), and was suddenly thrown back into a world I had almost forgotten- the world in which people spend entire conversations boasting about their fuzzy, mushy feelings about their "personal" relationship with God and all the good, good things they've gotten out of it (blessing after blessing-good, cushy job, attentions of rich, American men, blah, blah, blah). In the midst of this, she kept talking about the "Rapture"-how she just can't wait for this, how wonderful it's going to be, etc. etc. etc. I told her the Church has never taught the Rapture and that it is a relatively new doctrine, and she vehemently disagreed.

Am I correct in believing that the Church has never taught the Rapture?

Yes, you are. The doctrine of the rapture that many Protestants preach today is really a recent innovation found in the Dispensationalism of the Fundamentalist John Nelson Darby (early 19th century).

Thats true. The teaching really took off here in America where it seems to have gained a lot of popularity big time during the second so called "great awakening" during the 1800's. There is no tradition for it in the Church.

Yes, you are. The doctrine of the rapture that many Protestants preach today is really a recent innovation found in the Dispensationalism of the Fundamentalist John Nelson Darby (early 19th century).

Thats true. The teaching really took off here in America where it seems to have gained a lot of popularity big time during the second so called "great awakening" during the 1800's. There is no tradition for it in the Church.

If anything, rapture doctrine is very much akin to the doctrine of chiliasm (belief in a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth before the last judgment, which I believe is actually part of the Dispensationalist scheme of the end times), which the Church formally condemned.

Thank you. I indeed told her it was the invention of Darby and part of the Dispensationalism popular in America, and that she should do some research. She told me she refuses to do any research, because all she cares about and reads is the Bible and it's written in the Bible, so it's true.

Thank you. I indeed told her it was the invention of Darby and part of the Dispensationalism popular in America, and that she should do some research. She told me she refuses to do any research, because all she cares about and reads is the Bible and it's written in the Bible, so it's true.

Would she see it in the Bible if no one told her it was in there? Yes, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (the text Dispensationalists use most often to "prove" their doctrine of the rapture) does speak of a future event that could be called the "rapture", but the particularly Dispensationalist interpretation your friend apparently believes (that the faithful will be silently taken from this earth prior to seven years of tribulation and the 1000-year earthly reign of Christ) is not in the text of the Bible itself. This is an interpretation she had to have been taught to bring to her reading of the Bible. To my knowledge, the Church has always identified the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 with the Last Day return of Christ in glory to judge the living and the dead.

Thank you. I indeed told her it was the invention of Darby and part of the Dispensationalism popular in America, and that she should do some research. She told me she refuses to do any research, because all she cares about and reads is the Bible and it's written in the Bible, so it's true.

Did you inform her that the Bible has billions of interpretations and that the rapture is only one of those billions of interpretations?

Not that it matters, I used to be one of those, and I know from personal experience that is impossible to get through to someone in that mindset.

Studying the doctrine of the Rapture is a waste of time, unless your proclivety is the reading of historical/prophetical fiction. One might as well spend time studying to write a historical novel with apocolyptical overtones suggesting that Abraham Lincoln was a vampire slayer.

john

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Courteous is my name,and I have always aimed to live up to it.Grace is also my name,but when things go wrongits Courteous whom I blame;but its Grace who sees me through it.

Also: any advice on how to deal with people who brag and boast until you want to scream about how God has "blessed" them and given them wonderful job, good health, lotsa money, attentions of rich American man, etc. etc. etc., especially when they know full and well that you are going through enormous problems of your own? It seems sooo insensitive to me. Why do these types of christians feel they have to brag, brag, brag?

Based on my own history as a protestant I would say that a lot of protestants equate the "rapture" with the second coming of Christ. There was a time that I would have reacted the same way if someone told me that the rapture wouldn't happen because I would have thought they were saying that the second coming of Christ wouldn't happen. Not sure if this is the case here or not.

Also: any advice on how to deal with people who brag and boast until you want to scream about how God has "blessed" them and given them wonderful job, good health, lotsa money, attentions of rich American man, etc. etc. etc., especially when they know full and well that you are going through enormous problems of your own? It seems sooo insensitive to me. Why do these types of christians feel they have to brag, brag, brag?

Most of the time they don't know they are bragging. They often think they are witnessing.

Also: any advice on how to deal with people who brag and boast until you want to scream about how God has "blessed" them and given them wonderful job, good health, lotsa money, attentions of rich American man, etc. etc. etc., especially when they know full and well that you are going through enormous problems of your own? It seems sooo insensitive to me. Why do these types of christians feel they have to brag, brag, brag?

If you ignore them and walk away, you give them one less person to brag to.

Based on my own history as a protestant I would say that a lot of protestants equate the "rapture" with the second coming of Christ. There was a time that I would have reacted the same way if someone told me that the rapture wouldn't happen because I would have thought they were saying that the second coming of Christ wouldn't happen. Not sure if this is the case here or not.

Thanks. This makes sense. I guess my former religion didn't emphasize the rapture, so this is all a bit strange to me.

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Just for the sake of reference, here are the verses in question.

This is the "Apostle" read at burials.

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She hears, upon that water without sound, A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine Is not the porch of spirits lingering. It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.” We live in an old chaos of the sun, Or old dependency of day and night, Or island solitude, unsponsored, free, Of that wide water, inescapable.

This is a classic case of twisting scripture to meet an agenda. Convincing people that your religion is correct is no longer necessary because when viewing scripture in that context it automatically makes that religion the correct one.

Wasn't it Hal Lindsy who really made the rapture theory popular amongst Evangelicals with his book "The Late Great Planet Earth", published in 1970. I read it as a teenager. The whole thing seemed so counter cultural (A perfect way to lure people in considering when the book was published). The idea that all true believers will just disappear one day and leave all the wicked to suffer through the end times seems very unchristian to me, let alone unrealistic and against they reality of human suffering.

This doctrine created has lead the the development of the whole escapist notion you find in modern Evangelical Christianity. Modern American Christianits seems to view themselves as more of a counter cultural movement with heavy politically orientation due to the rapture theory. Look at how Evangelicals want to start World War III in the Middle East in order to hasten the return of Christ? They don't care if we all get blown to pieces in a war since they assume that they'll have all vanished by that time. A very bizarre and dangerous turn for any religion to take and one which only bad things will come from.

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

The rapture, or more specificially the PRE-TRIB rapture, indeed had it's origins in about the 1800s. All pre-tribbers believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, but not all millenarians believe in a pre-trib rapture (there are mid-tribbers and post-tribbers). For instance, none of the early chiliasts such as Irenaeus, Justin, and Tertullian believed in a pre-trib rapture--they all believed the church would be on earth when the Antichrist arrived.

The rapture, or more specificially the PRE-TRIB rapture, indeed had it's origins in about the 1800s. All pre-tribbers believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, but not all millenarians believe in a pre-trib rapture (there are mid-tribbers and post-tribbers). For instance, none of the early chiliasts such as Irenaeus, Justin, and Tertullian believed in a pre-trib rapture--they all believed the church would be on earth when the Antichrist arrived.

Yes that's correct there are different rapture theories amongst pre-Mellinialists, pre-Trib still has the greatest following among Evangelicals but the post-Trib view is gaining wider acceptance, the mid-Trib view as well to a lesser degree. I hold to the post-Trib view, though I must point out that I'm now undecided regarding Mellinialism, I used to be pre-Mill but now I'm leading more towards a-Mill. Either way I've always believed that Messiah will only return once, and therefore "the chosen" will only be "gathered" on the day of His return. And that's why the pre-Trib rapture doctrine is heresy - it adds a 3rd Coming (2nd Coming secret rapture, 3rd Coming Messiah's return).

I just finished a conversation with a Ukrainian Baptist friend of mine(highly influenced by Americans), and was suddenly thrown back into a world I had almost forgotten- the world in which people spend entire conversations boasting about their fuzzy, mushy feelings about their "personal" relationship with God and all the good, good things they've gotten out of it (blessing after blessing-good, cushy job, attentions of rich, American men, blah, blah, blah). In the midst of this, she kept talking about the "Rapture"-how she just can't wait for this, how wonderful it's going to be, etc. etc. etc. I told her the Church has never taught the Rapture and that it is a relatively new doctrine, and she vehemently disagreed.

Am I correct in believing that the Church has never taught the Rapture?

In most cases what is meant by "rapture" is the pre-Trib theory, so yes the Church did not teach this though pre-Tribbers try their luck with a psuedo-Ephraim text (8th century). This is rather flimsly "evidence" IMO.

Thank you. I indeed told her it was the invention of Darby and part of the Dispensationalism popular in America, and that she should do some research. She told me she refuses to do any research, because all she cares about and reads is the Bible and it's written in the Bible, so it's true.

Both post-Tribbers and mid-Tribbers have no problem refuting pre-Trib claims with the Bible itself.

Wasn't it Hal Lindsy who really made the rapture theory popular amongst Evangelicals with his book "The Late Great Planet Earth", published in 1970. I read it as a teenager. The whole thing seemed so counter cultural (A perfect way to lure people in considering when the book was published). The idea that all true believers will just disappear one day and leave all the wicked to suffer through the end times seems very unchristian to me, let alone unrealistic and against they reality of human suffering.

This doctrine created has lead the the development of the whole escapist notion you find in modern Evangelical Christianity. Modern American Christianits seems to view themselves as more of a counter cultural movement with heavy politically orientation due to the rapture theory. Look at how Evangelicals want to start World War III in the Middle East in order to hasten the return of Christ? They don't care if we all get blown to pieces in a war since they assume that they'll have all vanished by that time. A very bizarre and dangerous turn for any religion to take and one which only bad things will come from.

It's rather amazing that the rapture theory is largely absent amongst persecuted Christian communities. Here's a quote from amazon in response to a book review:

Dear Sir, If I may say so, please give me a break. I read the book sir. This book never discusses the false doctrine of the rapture. I did read the discussion concerning preparing for persecution and possible martrydom. But there was no mention of the rapture there. This is a great encouragment to me to see this in an American book. It was sheltered Westerners like you sir that taught the young underground Chinese Church that we didn't need to prepare for persecution because the rapture was coming to save us all. And then the persecution came and many fell away as a result saying, "But I thought they said the rapture would save us". Then we went to our Bibles and realized that the pre-tribulational rapture was a myth not taught in the Bible or believed by the early Christians. Today you will not find such bad theology as a false pre-tribulational rapture taught in the Chinese underground Church. We understand this to be a pipe dream pushed by many within the lazy and fat American Church that thinks that they, of all generations will be delivered, while their brothers and sisters in other countries are not spared from such difficulties. So how preparing for persecution equals bad theology makes no sense. This is true Christianity and always has been. Sir, you should stop listening to those false teachers who would tickle your ears and tell you what you like to hear.

Also: any advice on how to deal with people who brag and boast until you want to scream about how God has "blessed" them and given them wonderful job, good health, lotsa money, attentions of rich American man, etc. etc. etc., especially when they know full and well that you are going through enormous problems of your own? It seems sooo insensitive to me. Why do these types of christians feel they have to brag, brag, brag?

Remind them of Job, who lost everything in one day. God can choose to give us everything and God can also choose to take everything away from us in less than a split second, Job understood that and praised Him for it. How many of these people would do the same, I wonder. Don't let these people get you down, yes God may have blessed them but if they don't use these blessings for His glory (bragging, conceit and pride do not bring Him glory), then God may very well take them all away for their own good. Suffering, hardship and persecution is good too, St. James even went so far to say that they should be embraced with rejoicing.

Also: any advice on how to deal with people who brag and boast until you want to scream about how God has "blessed" them and given them wonderful job, good health, lotsa money, attentions of rich American man, etc. etc. etc., especially when they know full and well that you are going through enormous problems of your own? It seems sooo insensitive to me. Why do these types of christians feel they have to brag, brag, brag?

They may be filled with pride and have very poor social skills. ORThey may be insecure. What they frequently brag about is usually their greatest insecurity.

Also: any advice on how to deal with people who brag and boast until you want to scream about how God has "blessed" them and given them wonderful job, good health, lotsa money, attentions of rich American man, etc. etc. etc., especially when they know full and well that you are going through enormous problems of your own? It seems sooo insensitive to me. Why do these types of christians feel they have to brag, brag, brag?

If you ignore them and walk away, you give them one less person to brag to.

You could rub in the 2008 crash of the stock markets and real estate bubble. This often makes them feel good. That is if they haven't lost there fortune and ended up in Haiti stealing baby's.

Also: any advice on how to deal with people who brag and boast until you want to scream about how God has "blessed" them and given them wonderful job, good health, lotsa money, attentions of rich American man, etc. etc. etc., especially when they know full and well that you are going through enormous problems of your own? It seems sooo insensitive to me. Why do these types of christians feel they have to brag, brag, brag?

If you ignore them and walk away, you give them one less person to brag to.

You could rub in the 2008 crash of the stock markets and real estate bubble. This often makes them feel good. That is if they haven't lost there fortune and ended up in Haiti stealing baby's.

But, didn't we all know already that the Left Behind series is on par with Biblical prophecy as being an apt portrayal of things to come? For shame, for shame, that we would doubt the works of Tim LaHaye and his many peers, in their ongoing mission to warn us of that day before the Anti-Christ appears, when all good pretribs will disappear, leaving the rest of us to hold the bag in the persecution to come!

And now for something completely different...

I was blessed to have a pastor for a grandfather who never threw away any book. So many outdated exegesis on when/if the rapture would come, so many authors who boldly declared that the Beast was already here upon this earth in the form of (insert obscure European political figure here). I remember one from Jack Chick publications who told us that the Anti-Christ would be a Merovingian descended from the Blessed Virgin herself (because if you squint real hard "Mary" is the first word, and the second word is obviously a derivative of "virgin" ) , which also prepared me for the Da Vinci Code (Chick publications was more of a page turner, IMHO). So many were willing to tell us an exact date based off the "proper" reading of the most obscure numbers, involving what must have been "new" math. I remember one guy in the early '90s setting a date for the early '00s based off the number of stones and chambers within the Great Pyramid of Giza, because it was obviously built by the Hebrew slaves based on the wisdom of Joseph. Considering that more than half of these books predicted the end of the world before I even knew how to say my "ABC's" let alone read, I was well protected from certain tendencies in this regard.

Add to this conflicting theories within the pre-trib movement itself as regards those "left behind". Some believe only 144,000 Israelites will have a chance of salvation, some believe that there would be a sort of "second class salvation" open even after the rapture (i.e. those faithful are the ones the saints are prophesied to "judge" or rule), some believe that salvation is still open after the rapture and that the Tribulation is the punishment for not falling in line sooner.

I believed in staying out of those arguments. I had my hands full with our Lord turning water into grape juice

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

The term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17:"we will be caught up," (Latin: rapiemur).

« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 04:34:04 AM by ChristusDominus »

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There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

The term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17:"we will be caught up," (Latin: rapiemur).

So, in a sense, we're still going to be "raptured", just not in the way nor according to the time frame given by most Protestant rapture apologists.

Yip, though I prefer to call this event The Gathering of the Chosen as per 2 Thessalonians 2 & the Olivet Discourse, which those passages make very clear that it will only occur the day Messiah returns. I see no evidence that we'll be beamed up into Heaven Star Trek style, all Scripture says is that we'll meet our Master in the air. What for? I think that St. John Chrysostom was right on the money with this:

“If He is about to descend, why shall we be taken up? For the sake of honor. When a king enters a city, those who are in his favor go out to meet him, but the condemned await their judge inside. Or, when a loving father comes, his children, and also those worthy of being his children, are taken out in a chariot to see and kiss him, but the servants who have offended him remain indoors. So we are carried out upon a chariot to our Father...See how great our honor is? As He descends we go out to meet Him, and what is more blessed, we shall be with Him always” (Homily 8 on Thessalonians).

Also: any advice on how to deal with people who brag and boast until you want to scream about how God has "blessed" them and given them wonderful job, good health, lotsa money, attentions of rich American man, etc. etc. etc., especially when they know full and well that you are going through enormous problems of your own? It seems sooo insensitive to me. Why do these types of christians feel they have to brag, brag, brag?

Ask them what they are doing to demonstrate their gratitude to God. If they are truly trying to glorify God, then ask them if they are honoring His Mysteries, receiving His Sacraments, and striving for theosis.

Selam

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"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Gebre, Nazarene, this rapture thing I have investigated...it is of demonic origin, introduced by enemies of the church as a doctrine for very specific destructive purposes. I want you both to read on the life and connections of Cyrus Scofield who created the system known as dispensationalism and laid the foundation to this rapture doctrine along with Darby and others indirectly connected to him. I will just give a clue to what I'm talking about: Scofield's connection to the Lotus club. Everything else you must research.

Yes, I too grew up in a home with a Scofield bible. But, can you please elaborate just how this doctrine is of demonic origins? I will be getting back to my friend with any information I can find (although she refuses to learn anything about it, because she says all she needs to know is in the Bible).

Also: any advice on how to deal with people who brag and boast until you want to scream about how God has "blessed" them and given them wonderful job, good health, lotsa money, attentions of rich American man, etc. etc. etc., especially when they know full and well that you are going through enormous problems of your own? It seems sooo insensitive to me. Why do these types of christians feel they have to brag, brag, brag?

Ask them what they are doing to demonstrate their gratitude to God. If they are truly trying to glorify God, then ask them if they are honoring His Mysteries, receiving His Sacraments, and striving for theosis.

Selam

She will tell me how wonderful her christian life is, and how fantastic her relationship with Jesus is. She can talk for hours with no breaks in between about her amazing relationship with Jesus and how He gives her everything she needs, etc. etc.

Yes, I too grew up in a home with a Scofield bible. But, can you please elaborate just how this doctrine is of demonic origins? I will be getting back to my friend with any information I can find (although she refuses to learn anything about it, because she says all she needs to know is in the Bible).

Too controversial, further I cannot prove it with conclusiveness (I relie mostly on Scofield's character). I leave it up to those interested in the subject of the origin of dispensationalism.

Also: any advice on how to deal with people who brag and boast until you want to scream about how God has "blessed" them and given them wonderful job, good health, lotsa money, attentions of rich American man, etc. etc. etc., especially when they know full and well that you are going through enormous problems of your own? It seems sooo insensitive to me. Why do these types of christians feel they have to brag, brag, brag?

Ask them what they are doing to demonstrate their gratitude to God. If they are truly trying to glorify God, then ask them if they are honoring His Mysteries, receiving His Sacraments, and striving for theosis.

Selam

She will tell me how wonderful her christian life is, and how fantastic her relationship with Jesus is. She can talk for hours with no breaks in between about her amazing relationship with Jesus and how He gives her everything she needs, etc. etc.

Then tell her you are happy for her, and share with her the wondrful things that Jesus has given to us through His Church. Remember that Our Lord said that "those who are not against Me are with Me."

But I understand your frustration. My brother-in-law is the same way. He's always talking about how many people got "saved" at his church and talking about how good God is. It sort of implies that I don't realize that God is good, and that better things are happening in his life than in mine. It's very annoying, but I think he means well.

You could also point out to your friend that the Bible says that "all those who desire to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted." [II Timothy 3:12] Show her from the Bible that God's servants have often endured tremendous hardships, sufferings, and martyrdom. Show her from the Bible that following Jesus is costly, not easy. Jesus is not Santa Claus!

Selam

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"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Sigh. She told me she is ready for persecution, ready to die for Jesus, just like the martyrs! But she won't listen to anything I have to say about the Orthodox Church-anything I try to tell her, she corrects me and quotes a bible verse showing how our church is less than satisfactory. You know what I mean.

Also: any advice on how to deal with people who brag and boast until you want to scream about how God has "blessed" them and given them wonderful job, good health, lotsa money, attentions of rich American man, etc. etc. etc., especially when they know full and well that you are going through enormous problems of your own? It seems sooo insensitive to me. Why do these types of christians feel they have to brag, brag, brag?

Ask them what they are doing to demonstrate their gratitude to God. If they are truly trying to glorify God, then ask them if they are honoring His Mysteries, receiving His Sacraments, and striving for theosis.

Selam

She will tell me how wonderful her christian life is, and how fantastic her relationship with Jesus is. She can talk for hours with no breaks in between about her amazing relationship with Jesus and how He gives her everything she needs, etc. etc.

Gebre, Nazarene, this rapture thing I have investigated...it is of demonic origin, introduced by enemies of the church as a doctrine for very specific destructive purposes. I want you both to read on the life and connections of Cyrus Scofield who created the system known as dispensationalism and laid the foundation to this rapture doctrine along with Darby and others indirectly connected to him. I will just give a clue to what I'm talking about: Scofield's connection to the Lotus club. Everything else you must research.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories though if you have something to share, then by all means share it. For me the fact that the rapture as it's portrayed by Left Behind sounds a lot like science fiction is enough to convince me that it's BS, whether of demonic origin or not. Pre-Tribbers can't seem to understand that even though God will always protect us, the conditions are often less than comfortable. Think of the ancient Israelites in Sinai, YHWH fed them everyday and empowered them to overcome their enemies and yet they still wined and complained! God promises us bread not caviar, and will not secretly take us out of the world during the Tribulation because this is where He needs us to be, probably more then than any other time.

Well, I sent my friend a bunch of info about the origins of the rapture theory, and she was quite horrified. She said this isn't what she believes at all and that she had never even heard of J.H. Darby, C. Scofield, H. Lindsey and Co.