I dont understand how you can think Andre Miller is overrated. He's universally considered one of the more underrated players in basketball. Nobody says anything about him other than his ability to win games, get his teams to play to the absolute best of their ability, and create for his teammates. And he does do all of that. Nobody mentions him as a MVP candidate or an all-star, just a winner that makes everyone better.

that's because being a leader is something you gain with time and experience... that's why you never see a team with a bunch of rookies win ANYTHING even if they are wildly talented.. sure you can look at the cavs and clips days and blame that on him, or you can look at the more recent years (which are what is relevant) and you can see what milller and billups can bring to the table.

I think I get what you're trying to say Q and I think you have it backwards. Nobody is saying that leadership alone makes you better than another player. That'd be silly. I'd just rather have a player who is both talented and a leader rather than a player who's just talented.

It would've taken God and John the Baptist to turn around the late-90's and early 2000's Cavs and Clippers teams. That doesnt make him overrated because couldnt make them good, they needed more than 1 player. If you give him NBA level talent, he will win you games.

And who said Brandon Roy was better than Carmelo because he was a better leader? I never saw that post...

OK I see. But they were using it to break a "tie" in how's better than who. It seems like they thought it was a neck-nad-neck (just like I do) and leadership was the thing that would bring Roy over the top since they were so close. It was a "tiebreaker."

Never said Leadership was the most overrated...I said one of the most.

I dont like people picking player because there "Leaders"

I rather have CP3 OVER Billups...sorry

I rather have Melo over Roy...sorry

I rather have a superstar talent then a guy people like because he's a leader.......whatever to me, my opinion. when you question me by calling me dumb, you need to chill bro. Learn to respect opinions &$#%#[email protected]!.

Never said Leadership was the most overrated...I said one of the most.

I dont like people picking player because there "Leaders"

I rather have CP3 OVER Billups...sorry

I rather have Melo over Roy...sorry

I rather have a superstar talent then a guy people like because he's a leader.......whatever to me, my opinion. when you question me by calling me dumb, you need to chill bro. Learn to respect opinions &$#%#[email protected]!.

Alright y'all lol. It's over. Neither one of y'all are stupid. This was all a misunderstanding. Q thought we were valuing leadership more than talent when we were actually using leadership/experience as a tie breaker for two players who are neck and neck in talent.

Q it always comes back to the fact that i try and explain things to you and you refuse to even try and understand other people's points, instead wanting to stay in your stat world... then i resort to the you'll get it when you're older, because i literally believe that it will just be something that you will understand with time.

To me theres no comparing the talent that Roy and Anthony has. Anthony is the clear winner in natural talent. Roy has more polish, a better basketball IQ, and has a more refined game. He's a complete player, and about as complete a young player that the NBA has. But he's not getting substancially better. But Carmelo is consistantly improving his range, his rebounding, his passing, and his defense. He's always been an extremely underrated offensive rebounder, as he always battles in the post. He's got the ability to lead the NBA in scoring while giving 7-8 rebounds and 3-4 assists. He's got some of the best natural scoring instincts I've ever seen, and with the match up problems he creates, and the experience he's getting will make him even better.

And whats with the bashing Melo's leadership skills? He's assumed leadership positions on Syracuse leading them to a title in one year, he's taken leadership positions on 2 Olympics squads, he's turned the Nuggets into contenders (Say what you will about Miller or Billups, he's never missed the playoffs with constant shifting of his teammates.) I think a lot of you aren't giving Melo the credit he deserves, for whatever reason. None of us are in the Nuggets locker room or practices, so we have no idea how much of a leader he is. But he wins all the time, and he goes for the win all the time. (Melo's hit some game winners himself.) Given theyre the same age, I think Melo needs less to win than Roy does, and that to me, makes him the superior player.

Q im done trying to explain this to you. it seemed like you were trying to attribute all of the nuggets success to anthony leading the team and i disagreed with you and gave miller and camby as reasons that they did well... then you countered with stats...

and the reason i say you will get it when you get older is because when i was a teenager i also thought that i knew everything and i had conversations like the ones you and i have with my dad and he would always just tell me that i would understand when i got older... and now i understand. so thats why i say that to you. i come here to learn thru discussion and debate. period.

youre not my dad, I never come into every debate saying " I know it all! Im right, your wrong!" No. I said you can pick either one, still a good pick

I gave you past situations. Camby was average and he also was injury prone. Miller although he had a couple ok seasons, I felt that calling him the leader of that team was overrating him. Melo (although a knuckle head off the court and sometimes) was the man of that team.

yea, not trying to say im your dad, just telling you that is where the 'you will understand when you're older' comes from. i only say that when ive tried and tried to give you reasoning and you wont listen, even though i and many others give good arguments.

Mkadoza- I think you have it backwards (most people do)...Roy has gotten substantially better the last couple of years while Melo hasn't. Melo had a big jump in production from the 2004-2005 to 2005-2006. After 05-06 though Melo has leveled off. Meanwhile Roy has improved at least a little every year in the league. This season 08-09 Roy took a pretty big jump up compared to the 07-08 season. Yes, it may be hard to see but you have to look closely...Roy was very efficient in 08-09.

i know you didn't say that and never tried to make it seem like you had said that... but, in the entirety of my time coming to this site i have never seen you EVER back off one of your opinions, or modify your opinion, which is kind of the point of discussing.