Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

--- it is better to keep them there, and the 1highlighted in the K3 files. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Mr Irving will get the ---- 3MS ROGERS: Mr Irving will have exactly what your Lordship has. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. 5MS ROGERS: Then going into an N file, this is a document which 6Mr Irving had but I do not think your Lordship does have. 7It is the Moscow chronology derived from the diaries and 8letters. All of the documents -- there are extracts from 9the documents -- all of the documents extracted are 10contained in the file, but for convenience it is a sort of 11chronology of the relevant events in Moscow. If that 12clipped at the front of N. Then hot of the press there is 13a transcript of part of the tape your Lordship saw, the 14Leuchter Congress. This is an extract of the speech by 15Ahmed Rami. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: In French. 17MS ROGERS: In French and translated into German and what the 18translator has done, which has just been produced in the 19course of the afternoon, is to translate both the French 20and the German for reasons which will be become apparent 21on reading it. Can I suggest that goes into the Rami 22section which is RWE 2 tab 18? I hope that that completes 23the filing part of the exercise. Mr Berry has been most 24helpful in liaising on indexes. I would invite your 25Lordship, through Mr Berry, if there are any loose papers 26that do not have a home, to let us know and then we will

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1produce indexes which are final versions of the files so 2your Lordship will know what is in them. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think everything that matters has got a 4home now. 5MS ROGERS: I hope so, but if something turns up, then we will 6file it. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Right. 8MR RAMPTON: I wonder if your Lordship would want to take away 9any of the tapes we have been showing in court? I am 10going to comment on them in closing the case, but whether 11your Lordship wants to have them in the meantime or simply 12we hand them over when we finish speaking because I 13obviously now (and I do not know that your Lordship has 14either) do not have any idea how long it will be before 15your Lordship is able to give judgment. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am hoping not tremendously long. It 17depends a little bit. The only one that perhaps one might 18need to look at it is the Halle video, but we will 19probably be doing that anyway in the context of any 20argument that may be going to take place on its 21admissibility. 22MR RAMPTON: We do not want to burden your Lordship with them, 23so we will hang on to it in the meantime. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am not terribly keen on looking 25through them. 26MR RAMPTON: No. There will be coming a transcript of

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1Mr Irving's home made tape [German] which places him, 2I think, in Germany after he has been banned. I think it 3means "I am coming back" -- "I will be back". 4MR IRVING: "I shall return". 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: "Come again". I do not know what you are 6proposing to do about reducing any part of the final 7speech into writing. 8MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I am going to write the whole thing, at 9least Miss Rogers and I are together, and I am going when 10the time comes obviously to give a copy to your Lordship 11and to Mr Irving. However, what I will not do, unless 12otherwise ordered to do, is give Mr Irving a copy in 13advance of his giving me a copy of what he is going to 14say. I am not saying he should write it for exchange. If 15there is not going to be an exchange, because he does not 16want an exchange because he is not going to write it out, 17then I will hang on to mine and I will give your Lordship 18a copy after I have read it. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I certainly would not ---- 20MR RAMPTON: As I read it. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- order that there should anything other 22than exchange. 23MR IRVING: An exchange on the day perhaps? 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I am really driving at is this, that if 25it were to prove to be possible to exchange, even if it is 26only one day in advance of actually having the argument,

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1I suspect we would save a lot of time because I could, you 2know, spend a bit of the previous day having a look and 3perhaps going to the bits that I would like more help on 4as opposed to the other bits. 5MR IRVING: In theory, yes, my Lord, but, of course, I would 6then forfeit the advantage which comes to the person who 7makes the closing speech which is answering specific 8points that have been made. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is true. That is a perfectly fair 10point. Well, I will leave it this way, that if you could 11on Friday, first thing on Friday, agree to exchange, that 12would help me but if ---- 13MR RAMPTON: I think that will be too soon. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not mean tomorrow, obviously, I mean 15Friday week. 16MR RAMPTON: No, no, I doubt it will be ready before the Monday 17morning anyway. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: So be it. 19MR RAMPTON: If it is, so be it, but I doubt it will be. What 20I would like to do, since your Lordship said I think 21yesterday that Monday 13th was not a fixed day for 22delivery of the speeches, as it were, in court, what 23I would possibly like to do is to let your Lordship have 24it as soon as I can, and I hope it might be before the 25Monday morning but it might not be, and then come to court 26(which is what I did in another long case I finished

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1recently) and answer questions, as it were, when your 2Lordship has had a chance to read it. But in the 3particular and peculiar circumstances of this case, there 4will be quite a lot that I will want court time to read 5out. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think we want to regard Monday 13th as 7being pretty much a fixed date when we are going to have 8speeches. 9MR IRVING: I may have over misheard something there. Is the 10intention that the speeches should be read out and not 11just taken as read? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Oh, no, no, not read out at all, no. I think 13one has to play it by ear. I do not know what you are 14proposing to do. You do not have to write a word down. 15MR IRVING: No, I propose to write mine, yes. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I suspect then there may be odd points 17I want to pick up with you. I mean, do not feel the need 18to just read out your prepared final speech. That would, 19I think, be a complete waste of time. 20MR IRVING: Right, so it is a written submission rather than -- 21that point I had not appreciated. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: But I do not know what you are going to say 23so I cannot really ---- 24MR IRVING: That I am right and that they are wrong, 25basically. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: