Skeptics: “We were wrong, the Billy Meier UFO case is authentic”

In the real world, and occasionally in the online virtual world, people have to substantiate what they say about others, especially if they make claims that attack another person’s honesty, character, etc. There can be consequences for not doing so and for unjustly characterizing or accusing them.

For quite some time it’s been acceptable in the wild and wonderful world of UFOs, to accuse Billy Meier, the man with the most abundant, amazing, credible, authenticated UFO evidence, of somehow hoaxing and faking it all. People who have absolutely no expertise themselves, absent any qualifications, having conducted no credible testing and analysis, branded a man as a fraud, cheater, profiteer, etc., without so much as a second thought as to the rightness of their actions.

Completely neglected by these parties is the question, “What is the criteria that reasonable people use to determine the truth?”

Among the unreasonable ones are scientists, members of the UFO community/industry (UFOCI) and skeptics. Skeptics, in case you may be unclear about it, are people for whom applying the respected standards of science and the scientific method to assess the validity of all claims simply isn’t enough. Apparently threatened by claims of the so-called but non-existent “paranormal”, they resort to pseudoscientific behaviors to try to make sure that something so evidence rich, monumentally important (and threatening to their religious belief systems) as the Meier case is discredited and ridiculed. They are perhaps unintentionally given support in their marginalization of the UFO topic by the behavior of the UFOCI, which has the lowest possible standards, is painfully unscientific, relies on mainly anecdotal reports for evidence, welcomes all sorts of charlatans, liars and poseurs and provides a home for the fringe element…as well as a very effective environment from which to spread disinformation by the intelligence communities. Apart from that, the UFOCI has become a very lucrative field for speakers, TV shows, etc., which skirt the real truth about the cover-up, i.e. that it’s actually all about the Meier case, and contribute to the entertainment/distraction agenda.

Most (but not all) of the parties listed below have previously gone on record as stating that the Billy Meier UFO contact case is a hoax and that Billy Meier is everything from a fraud, hoaxer, profiteer, to a cult leader, etc. They are now listed as admitting they were…wrong.

The Process

Since each of these parties had previously accused Meier of hoaxing, I invited them to view and test Meier’s newest evidence, the independent, professional analyses, conducted using state-of-the-art technology of Meier’s controversial 35mm WCUFO photos and video and the 8mm “Pendulum UFO” film. They were informed that failure to substantiate their original opinions, as well as failure to rebut the new analyses with credible documentation, would be an admission that their previous assessments were wrong. Therefore, such failures would result in their effectively endorsing the case and evidence they once condemned. Things are real, genuine, authentic and true, or they’re not. And since none of the parties were ambiguous or undecided on the matter they would either substantiate their position or effectively change it. Should anyone notify me that they are now undecided it will be noted but also require explanation on their part.

One of Meier’s defamers, astronomer Stuart Robbins, responded to my challenge not by substantiating his defamatory statements about Meier but by…threatening to take legal action against me. So Robbins of course remains high up on the list unless and until he can substantiate his claims and rebut the new photographic analyses.

Susan Swiatek, a MUFON* spokesperson (and apparent giant lizard slayer) also warned me that she’d “invoke and thrust” if I included her among those who wrongly assessed the evidence in the Meier case and now effectively endorse it. So Sue may want to sue me for slander or, in her case…salamander.

It’s a plain fact of life that, from time to time, all of us are wrong and all of us make mistakes and misjudgments about various things. There’s really no shame in making mistakes unless we stubbornly refuse to admit, correct and not repeat those mistakes. Should I have mistakenly listed anyone who has in fact not erroneously labeled the case and/or Meier as fraudulent, I’ll certainly apologize and remove them from this list. However, I may ask them to state their position now that sufficient evidence has been made available that allows them to test some of it themselves. Now before we meet those who, in my opinion, have effectively endorsed the Meier case by failing to rebut the evidence, think how different this discussion would have been if all those listed below had simply said those three wise little words, “I don’t know.”

The List

Dr. Steven Novella is a professional skeptic who previously made a rapid, negative assessment of Meier’s evidence and hastily concluded it was a hoax, defaming him in the process. Ironically, in our correspondence he tried to sound like a thoughtful man of science who required that “real science” should be used to substantiate evidence and represented himself as someone who conducted himself in the same manner. His lack of response to the evidence I presented to him, other than to avoid and complain about being required to address it and be accountable for his inept and defamatory comments revealed that his position was a pretentious façade intended to conceal his complete lack of knowledge, qualifications and expertise. What it didn’t conceal was his lack of personal integrity and character and his willingness to hastily misjudge and defame someone based on his own preconceptions, prejudices and beliefs.

James Randi is the poster boy for professional skepticism. He felt no need to honor his own bogus “$100,000 award for proof of the paranormal, etc.”, since he retracted his claim that the Meier case was a hoax. Again, if it’s not a hoax it’s…real. He pulled the ultimate magic act and…disappeared.

Stuart Robbins is the aforementioned astronomer, in reality another pseudoscientist who seems to be more focused on celebrity seeking and building his reputation as a skeptical gunslinger by taking on the easy, looney targets in the paranormal and UFO fields. Another one fast on the draw and quick to shoot, Robbins also tried his hand at dismissing the evidence in the Meier case, resorting to censoring it as well as misrepresenting it on his blog. He likes to bake cookies.

Philip Plait is right up there with (actually a good bit higher up the food chain than) Stuart Robbins. Another one of the celebrity-seeking, “I wanna be Mr. Science” types, he was alsocharacteristically dismissive in true know-it-all fashion of the Meier case and simply headed for the hills when confronted and challenged with Meier’s evidence, although he seemed to take to echoing some it a bit later, when perhaps because he’d forgotten about Meier he’d also assumed that everyone else had.

Prof. Paul Davies is a scientist and professor at ASU who’s actually written five books on extraterrestrial life, etc. Strangely enough, when I sent him our film “as the time fulfills” and other information about Billy Meier, the only response I was finally able to coax out of his assistant, after numerous calls and emails to his office, was that, “His interests and expertise do not extend into this area.” Hey, who said you have to know anything about the topics you write books about? Of course I did inform him that it was my area of interest and expertise but perhaps he was busy writing another book about extraterrestrials and didn’t have the time (interest or expertise) to answer.

Prof. Lawrence Krauss is also a scientist at ASU who makes TV appearances to discuss various topics. He’s the author of “The Physics of Star Trek” and seemed a likely enough candidate to send the Meier information to. Despite three emails from me and one from NASA aerospace engineer Matthew Wieczkiewicz there was no response..until I notified him of my intention to give him some free publicity here. Then he didn’t want me to mention his name.

Prof. Michio Kaku is an outspoken scientist who seems to be a champion of many right causes, lending his expertise and credibility to espousing them. However, like too many other celebrity-scientists, his tarsals and metatarsals assume sub-zero temperatures when it comes to publicly commenting on the Meier case, the existence and authenticity of which he is well aware, since I’ve not only sent him “And Did They Listen?” but also quite a few emails, including about Meier’s information on Fukushima. He has a Facebook page where people can also contact him and let him know the world’s a friendly place and that it’s actually safe to take a stand on something this important.

Alejandro Rojas and John Raoof (get a load of this) OpenMinds represent a unique blend of cynicism, disinformation and naked profiteering. This is the organization that purchased a large part of Wendelle Stevens research collection, including his work on the Meier investigation, Meier’s photos, etc., and that then attacks the case as a “hoax”…while selling Meier’s photos! I consider that to be the behavior of the epitome of two-faced, parasitical, bottom feeders…and willing disinformation agents in the UFOCI.

John Greenwald is a young UFO enthusiast, whatever that means, who’s kinda dedicated to UFO related matters, chasing lights in the sky and various government conspiracies, etc. John had a complete meltdown when we got into it about the Billy Meier case. Like most everyone in this category, he did his version of “Hi, I’m whatshisname, and I’m a Billy Meier denier.” When pressed even mildly he was unable to say anything of significance or credibility to support his confused position on the Meier case. So since he couldn’t refute the clear and credible evidence, he simply got mad at me, took his marbles and went home. Presumably he’ll work even harder on uncovering the UFO cover-up, while continuing to avoid recognizing that it’s solely about the Billy Meier case at this point.

Derek Bartholomaus deserves a special place on this list and in our hearts. Bartholomaus, like James Randi, is also a professional skeptic, bungler and bumbler. He too retracted his claim that the Meier case was a hoax using models and miniature trees, etc. But he couldn’t resist trying to attract people to his debunking website by being deliberately misleading in naming it. He aligned himself with:

Phil Langdon, the British skeptic who made some excellent models of the WCUFO and whose photos are the best efforts of duplicating the effect of Meier’s. Of course the devil’s in the details and details such as those seen here were never attempted by Langdon, whose inner awareness of Meier’s authenticity must be getting the better of him. Early on he was quite vocal in claiming that his efforts proved that Meier had hoaxed all his evidence using the same methods that Langdon employed. While I had actually encouraged his efforts to take his best shots (no pun intended) beginning in 2009, Langdon’s earlier, over reaching confidence virtually evaporated in the face of Prof. Zahi’s expert analyses. Langdon uttered a few incoherent words and, like a few others, basically disappeared.

Stephen Bassett has been hounding the UFO scene for some time, with his daffy “Exopolitics” organization, dog and pony show “UFO hearings” and time wasting “fax Washington to force UFO disclosure” deliberate disinformation and distraction agenda. I say that it’s deliberate because no sincere, sane and honest individual would run around claiming that there’s an “extraterrestrial presence” with “millions of contactees” and all those darn crying, bug-eating, “alien-human hybrid babies”. A few years ago, Bassett not only admitted to me in person that he knows the Meier case is authentic but he explained that – in his words – “It wasn’t time for it yet.” He added that it was more important for people to get behind his insane program to send faxes to Washington, to try to force the government to disclose things it doesn’t know about evidence that it no longer possesses. You don’t get more points as a hack disinformation operative than that. Of course when you actually finance poseurs and profiteers like this, you earn a complimentary placement on this list, such as…

Tom Clearwater is a Canadian philanthropist from what I can learn about him from limited information online. Apparently he was the sole, or main, financial supporter for Bassett’s latest congressional caper, coughing up $600,000 for the fiasco, which included paying six US Congressmen, our elected officials, $20,000 each to bark along with Bassett about all this UFO stuff. That money could have been used to publicly inform the citizens of planet Earth that a race of extraterrestrial human beings have been in contact with a Swiss man for over 72 years and they and he are trying very hard to assist us to not commit planetary suicide. Of course the Plejaren didn’t reckon with the power of the almighty dollar and the irrepressible, egomaniacal ambitions of third-rate exopolitical hacks and their deluded (or is it willing?) supporters. $600,000…it’s staggering to think about the awareness that investment could have brought to the world through providing translations of Meier’s 26,000+ pages of information into different languages, etc. Perhaps though Clearwater explained the underlying reason for the disparity in our priorities when in response to my asking him, “Why focus on imaginary entities, baby aliens and disinformation instead of the only authentic UFO contacts of Billy Meier?” Clearwater said, “I suppose because we live in different universes. Mine is seemingly much more populated than yours.” There you have it, much more populated with imaginary things which, when you think about this already overly entertained world, is what people like to waste their money on anyway. I guess Clearwater is a – proud – example of just what Billy Meier was warning about in number 127 here.

Susan Swiatek is a MUFON representative of some sort to whom I had sent information on the Meier case. Her professional, genteel response is now a matter of record, as is her role as Susie the Serpent Slayer. Some eccentric people with too much time on their hands dress up in little costumes and entertain tourists on Hollywood Boulevard, others get involved in being “UFO researchers”.

Stanton Friedman has made a career out of yacking about…Roswell. A frequent presence on the rubber chicken circuit, Friedman is the Uncle Stan of UFO experts, rehashing whatever information about the 67 year old event he can possibly dredge up. It wasn’t always like that. At one point in the early stages of the investigation into the Billy Meier UFO case, Friedman approached lead investigator, Lt. Colonel Wendelle Stevens, begging to be involved in the investigation and especially the analysis of Meier’s photographic evidence. Stevens declined the request, noting (wisely) that he didn’t want the investigation contaminated by any members of the UFOCI, but only wanted reputable, high level analysts and facilities involved in the process. Apparently Friedman took umbrage at being treated dismissively and thereafter called the case a hoax, etc. However, he has assured his place in UFOlogical history as having remarkable digestive abilities (even for a public speaker) and the capacity to suppress his boredom, as well as his frustration about being excluded from the Meier case investigation.

Stephen Greer of the Disclosure Project probably started out on that famous road paved with very good intentions, forgetting that it unfailingly led to some particular hell or another. In Greer’s case, it’s led him to morph into a money-seeking huckster, who sells expensive, totally inane “Ambassador to the Universe” trainings and “Shine Your Flashlight in the Desert Sky for Aliens-on-Demand” performances. As I did with Bassett, I personally and publicly offered the Meier case to Greer as not only the world’s best evidence but as a means to relieve us form the parade of people who’ve courageously come forward to tell us they’ve seen stuff in the sky…though they really don’t know what it was. Like Bassett, Greer continues to milk the cow of promises never delivered and of course has no shortage of customers who are willing to pay for such consciousness clogging, stuff.

Prof. Bernard Haisch is a scientist who’s avoided saying too much about the Meier case although I’ve sent him tons of information about it. He also has been in contact with Prof. James Deardorff, who’s made a truly huge contribution to the research in the Meier case. So while Haisch appears to be content to not raise his head and take a firm stand, because he is a scientist and well aware of the Meier case I’m saying that he effectively endorses the authenticity of the case. Should he disagree, he has all the opportunity he needs to clearly, credibly – and courageously – come forward and refute the evidence.

James Underdown, of CFI-West/IIG is an associate of Derek Bartholomaus’ whose agreement to look into the evidence in the Meier case some time ago apparently fell by the wayside, as he tilts at the paranormal windmills that constitute the weighty challenges facing CRI-West/IIG in its never-ending battle to rid the world of phony psychics, seers and other menaces to society, which also serves to keep their $50,000 award safely untouched and probably non-existent. The fact that they should hand over the award to Meier may also account for his keeping a very low profile. Despite his personally telling me that he’d delve into the Meier information and evidence that easily rebuts all claims of any hoax, nothing ever came of it. Perhaps he actually read what happened when the skeptics tried to debunk Meier’s Jupiter related information…and ended up corroborating it instead.

James Fox may be the James Randi of UFOlogy. He claims that he knows what he saw…but then offers a bogus $100,000 award for proof of an actual extraterrestrial UFO. Naturally, when presented with ample evidence of the authenticity of Meier’s claims he goes into airplane mode, disconnecting entirely from the conversation, probably not even vibrating…He could have contacted:

D.J. GrotheandMichael Shermerare both professional skeptics – one really has to laugh at that notion and the endless obligations it must bestow upon these people to view everything that is outside of their religiously tinged belief systems and world view as suspicious and in need of “debunking”. Suffice it to say that they too accused Meier of a hoax but never substantiated their claims, busy as they must be tilting at windmills.

Lee Speigel is a columnist for the Huffington Post who, as you can read, let me know that the price for his bringing the Meier case to public attention was nothing less than him meeting with…the Plejaren. He wasn’t happy that I shared his egocentric demands publicly. Speigel’s claim to UFameO is rests on some work he did on the topic back in the 1970s. I guess he figured that the Plejaren must have been too busy messing around with that “Swiss farmer” back then to have noticed him and, while he might forgive the oversight, he’s still willing to give them an audience…but not mention it to his audience unless the Plejaren cater to his demands.

Bill Birneshas been happy to do a hatchet job on the Meier case because, after all, Birnes is a “UFO researcher” who got his big break to do a TV show, wear sunglasses, get his 15 minutes and…dutifully spread disinformation. One of his compatriots in disinformation is:

George Wingfield, who repeats and supports the completely wrong, defamatory, unsubstantiated attacks on the Meier case, the WCUFO etc.

Seth Shostakof SETI has also stubbornly, deliberately and perhaps in obedience to any higher ups – but most certainly in fear of losing his paycheck for essentially doing nothing of significance – chosen to ignore both my in person and online conveyance to him of the Meier information. He waits by his radio in hopes of receiving “contact” form folks who are laughing at the ludicrousness of it, off world and on.

Robert Shaeffer’s another UFO debunker who simply doesn’t care to get up to speed, despite my providing him with all of the Meier related evidence and information any serious researcher could want. Of course many people who think of themselves as “UFO researchers” are merely hobbyists, conspiracy theorists and dabblers with too much time on their hands and have fond the UFO topic to be sufficiently superficially exciting so as to help alleviate some of their boredom.

Skeptic.com is an online hub for various skeptics like Shermer, etc., that has been approached numerous times to look into and challenge the Meier material. I’ve included another UFO skeptic only because he too couldn’t deal with the Meier’s evidence:

Tim Printy said to feel free to contact him “with any information or feedback you desire via email” pertaining to his website that basically regards most UFOs as not plausible, figments of people’s imaginations, misperceptions, etc. But wouldn’t ya know it, he too can’t handle the evidence in the Meier case.

UPDATE: Thanks to the work of Kevin Thompson, I was directed to this information on the Meier case so, other than to direct people to the information, I am removinghttp://www.ufoevidence.org from the list of critics, debunkers, etc., and it is indeed a nice looking website.

There are a few people I’m including in this list who aren’t really openly involved in the UFO topic or debate but who despite their professed cutting edge, forward thinking attitudes were far from open-minded – or courageous – enough to even look through the proverbial telescope and say anything about it:

Prof. Peter Boghossian, a professional atheist who blusters a good bit about “converting” religious believers to atheism, a kinda…religious approach if one thinks about it. He makes good points about religious delusions and I approached him to be interviewed on some forthcoming should he was going to host. I briefly met him in person and, when I contacted him to follow up afterwards about the interview, used a silly excuse to cancel it. Atheists often have their own very religious beliefs of which they’re unaware. Boghossian, turned out to be a paper tiger when it came to responding to information about the Meier case, maybe because it makes his atheist viewpoint seem like kindergarten in comparison with things like Meier’s information on God-delusion, etc. Nice intelligent guys like this have also mapped out and defined reality and don’t want inconvenient little things like the most important true story in all of science and human history messing with their beliefs, comfort zone or…popularity.

Beatriz Kravetz and TJ Slezak get honorable mentions as outsiders to the UFOCI who contributed to the debate if only by letting their religious beliefs, political correctness, etc., get in the way of true free speech, independence of thinking and healthy debate on campus. I include them as endorsing the case since they know about it and couldn’t, wouldn’t, certainly didn’t act with any courage or intellectual honesty in dealing with it. Unfortunately, colleges and universities have so lost direction and tend to think it’s more important to focus on politically correct, “daring” issues, such as what consenting adults do with their genitals. I really wouldn’t expect them to pay much attention to most of the UFO information, etc., but the Meier case isn’t to be equated at all to that tabloid worthy nonsense…as both Ms. Kravetz and Mr. Slezak are certainly intelligent enough to realize.

UPDATED Entries:

Paola Harris is long overdue being included here. While she states that she knows the Meier case is real, she blocks the presentation of the information at any conferences at which she has any influence, authority, etc.

RIchard Dolanreally is deserving of being added to the list. While certainly not one of the active defamers of the Meier case, Dolan has dug himself into a nice, comfortable, Mr. Milquetoast position, where he drones on, endlessly, about essentially…nothing. However, being a reasonably astute, intelligent, dedicated UFO researcher who, for the life of him, just couldn’t manage to notice the zillion pound elephant in the room, maybe he too needs to be reminded that the truth is far more important than pushing books about speculative UFO nonsense when the Meier case is here, present and starring in your sleepy face. Wake the heck up, RIchard Dolan! I’ve now appointed and anointed you as an enthusiastic endorser of the truth about the singular authenticity of the Billy Meier UFO contacts so hurry up and credibly object, dispute or, well…write another book about how you finally came to discover it, etc.

Above Top Secret (ATS) is one of the main disinformation sites, which focuses on conspiracies, etc., and has been especially involved in attacking anything to do with the Meier case. I accidentally outted one of their attorneys some years ago. The info seems to have been sanitized off of their site but most of it may still be here. Apparently, another disinformation hack was also associated with ATS is none other than:

James Gilliland has relentlessly attacked the Meier case for years, ever since his request for Meier to view his video of “UFOs” was honored by both Meier and Ptaah. Gilliland’s foaming-at-the-mouth attacks continue to this day, mainly because Ptaah informed Meier that the objects appearing at Gilliland’s property were actually secret military craft developed at Area 51. Apparently that and other information about GIlliland’s delusions didn’t sit well with him. Instead of being “in contact with extraterrestrials” it turns out he’s kind of an experiment in mind-control, etc., which, in Gilliland’s case, doesn’t seem to require too much effort to control.

Baxter, another opponent of the Meier case, is an associate of pseudoscientist Stuart Robbins who occasionally inserts actual, regular English language words into his profanity laced rants against people he can’t otherwise debate…before he hangs up on them.

Why

One may wonder why I bothered to list these people. If this were just about “UFOs” it would be a huge waste of time. However, I view the Meier case as the key to our future survival and my personal mission is to help prove the prophecies…wrong. So pointing out just some of the parties who’ve contributed up until now to withholding and suppressing the truth from the public is necessary. Certainly they’re not all mean-spirited, deliberate disinformers. But they are, each of them, people who could have and should have dug a little deeper into the evidence rich Meier case with its staggering implications for humanity before they dismissed, ridiculed and condemned it.

Let’s consider what Quetzal said to Billy Meier, in 1987, regarding Meier’s indefatigable but possibly futile efforts to help the human beings of Earth:

“You apparently never give up hope. Your optimism is honourable and deserves to be heard by human beings, but the way things have developed throughout this century there is not too much hope that human beings of Earth will come to their senses and heed your words. This will then be the case only when the prophecies prove to be true or, even worse, have already come to pass. Probably only then will the time come when the defamations against you will end in regard to your contacts with us, although they will long continue to be vehemently disputed by your enemies as well as by pathological know-it-alls and critics who dismiss them as swindle, lies and fraud. The full truth about our contacts with you will be proven in the distant future, and then mankind will accept our help we offer through you—even when they erroneously assume we come from the seven-star system known to human beings of Earth as the Pleiades.”

*Normally, MUFON would have been at the top of this list. However, since I am in communication with its executive director, Jan Harzan, I plan on making an announcement this week on the progress concerning their opening up the discussion about the Billy Meier UFO case to the public and to their membership.

Phil Langdon: “I would suggest to anyone watching this to remind themselves of what exactly the ‘scientific method’ really is. Check out Richard Feynman on youtube for this and see for yourself Meier and his need for ‘evidence’ falls flat on it’s face.”

My naturally blocked response:

Taro: “You’re a fraud, Phil. If the evidence ‘falls flat on it’s face’, that means there is a SCIENTIFIC REFUTATION. Where is it? Sooner or later someone who isn’t blocked will ask you the same question.”

Are you people for real? The “dinosaur” is an exact replica of the book, the “alien” girls are the tv models, and the “ufo” photos and movies look so fake that I can’t believe this website is serious. Print this if you dare.

Yep, and Mary was a virgin, he raised the dead, feed so many with so little, turned water into wine and here’s the kicker, he died on a cross to save you, of all people, for your immorality . Believe this is real if you are a serious daredevil.

Michael, I have more than enjoyed reading your brave exposé. I lost count on how many times I said “Right on!” particularly as you ploughed through the names of people proved wrong, notably, for me, the out and out sceptics.

Having lived on the “Fringes” for much of my life; what with my study of astrology, ufos and things that go bump in the night (even having written a book about some of it; Life and Death – Making Sense of It) I well anticipate and understand the arrogance one can meet, and the frustration one can feel in dealing with “those (supposedly) in the know.”

How well I recall that, back in the 1970s, 186 scientists and Nobel prize winners signed a petition condemning astrology. The document read like an edict, penned by a group of high priests, than any reasoned argument by people seeking the truth of the matter. For many of these great men (I think they were all men) anything falling outside of their mechanistic reductionist paradigm was also outside of higher reason, and therefore, by default, cast out to the Fringes. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so serious and also dangerous.

What I would call the holistic-spiritual paradigm has a tough road ahead right now, but I prefer to see it as birth pangs. It’ll be big when it does arrive.

Seriously? The who case screams fake. The photos are a joke. Clearly models were used with minature trees in some cases with the same tree used more than once in a fifferent location. Some of the photos are obviously close to the camera.

And lets not forget all the photos he took from books and tv shows claiming to be aliens, ufos, dinisours etc.

You have prople making money ftom this crap, and people who are gullible enough to fall for this cult (it has become a cult)

I would suggest of course giving a detailed, credible rebuttal to the 74-page WCUFO analysis, as well as all the rest of them.

In order to do that you’ll also need top submit comments using your first and last name. As I said, we suffer one stupid comment and then you’ll have to provide…CREDIBLE rebuttals to the actual evidence analyses, etc. And that of course excludes the long dismissed nonsense from th inept skeptics.