I think VAcarro is better, but I don't think it's as big a gap as your metaphor might suggest.

Again, I think the things Reid does wrong are things that are correctable.

I think angles are actually difficult to correct -- has more to do with natural instinct vs coaching. It's a reactionary trait, not something the player has time to think about.

Vacarro has an issue running himself out of plays/being over aggressive, I think that can be coached. He can make a conscious effort to be more patient when attacking, giving himself an opportunity to redirect as he's coming towards the ball carrier.

That's what I really like about Elam. His COD and ability to redirect himself in short areas stands out.

When it comes to angles and how you see things breaking down in front of you, it's more of an inherent trait. A coach can tell you you're consistently going too wide or too narrow and adjustments can be made, but how much can you really change?

Consider the speed at which these players are moving and how quickly one play goes by in the NFL. On average it's probably under 5 seconds. The angles these players take need to be instinctive... Second nature...

Yes, I project Johnthan Banks to have to make the transition to safety and I feel he'll do a good job there.

This is a different looking list -- I like it though. And I agree with Reid.

Swearinger most difficult grade for me. I ended up with him higher based on potential, but he's definitely a knucklehead and shows some stretches of really poor play... Then he's the best player on the field for a qtr or 2 before doing something stupid or lazy again.

TJ McDonald also has great measurables. In fact, people are talking about TJ as a riser after his pro-day.

I'm not big on pro-days at all. The tape is already out there and a guys pro day performance shouldn't change that. Reid & McDonald are seeing a resurgence in draft stock based on their athleticism instead of their play.

I think it's interesting to watch him against A&M where he struggled some. Spread offense w lots of receivers on the field.

And then watch the Alabama & MSU game where he is playing a more traditional deep safety. I think he looked better and more comfortable in those games.

I thought Alabama is a good indication of what you get with Reid. In both 2011 and 2012.

You get a guy big enough to bring down Richardson or Lacy. But you also get a guy who's late to his spots in coverage, takes poor angles, missed a lot of tackles on those running backs he was able to put down with a kill shot.

I hate to say it but Reid = modern version of Roy L. Williams. Slightly more athletic, can make a kill shot here & there, will get burned in coverage and miss routine tackles. 40 times don't equal field speed.

Vacarro ran much slower than Reid in the 40 but is clearly faster on the field. Reid's pro day has him deceiving the masses!

I'm not big on pro-days at all. The tape is already out there and a guys pro day performance shouldn't change that. Reid & McDonald are seeing a resurgence in draft stock based on their athleticism instead of their play.

This is how busts happen.

this is true, and I hate when this always happens. Same for guys with a bad pro day. At least I don't feel bad since I liked him previously lol, I'll ride or die with him for better or worse. But I never perceived him to be a workout warrior honestly so I was surprised.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

this is true, and I hate when this always happens. Same for guys with a bad pro day. At least I don't feel bad since I liked him previously lol, I'll ride or die with him for better or worse. But I never perceived him to be a workout warrior honestly so I was surprised.

Yeah, I'm just surprised you like him more than Vacarro..

I think Vacarro/Cyprien/Elam are on a different tier than the other guys in this draft. To me, there is a substantial drop off in overall ability and consistency.

I think this is a deep class, and I think guys like Rambo, Swearinger, Williams etc. can develop into good starters but they don't show the consistency as the top 3.

With that being said, props for sticking to your guns. Maybe you're right. I just don't see it personally.

this is true, and I hate when this always happens. Same for guys with a bad pro day. At least I don't feel bad since I liked him previously lol, I'll ride or die with him for better or worse. But I never perceived him to be a workout warrior honestly so I was surprised.

I feel like the tape should always be the foundation of an evaluation. Combines & pro days are complimentary tools.

Maybe a different way of looking at things, but every year we see players drop...

Who do you all see as a possibility for Dallas?

Seems to me guys who might slip in the first are:

Star Lotulelie - Concerns over the irregular heartbeat at combine
Bjoern Werner - Not dynamic, more of an effort guy
Damontre Moore - Poor combine
Alec Ogletree - Off the field issues
DJ Fluker (to 2nd round) - purely a right tackle who may be too tall for guard

Other than Ogletree, I'd be a fan of taking any of the others immediately as it would likely mean Vacarro, Cooper, and Warmack are off the board. Being able to get Fluker in the 2nd would be a steal too. We werr pretty good with Colombo and he's a better version of that.

Or maybe there is a guy who was off the radar but he puts up some great combine numbers which cause you to take a more in depth look at the tape.

Maybe there is a guy who's receiving a lot of hype and puts up some terrible numbers.. Ok, lets go watch the tape and re-evaluate just to make sure we aren't missing something

That's how it's most effective IMO.

But when Matt Barkley, Eric Reid, TJ McDonald, etc start seeing drastic changes in draft position when they haven't played a game in several months -- the trouble starts.

Ah yes, you would think that's common sense. But dig a little deeper. Sometimes people see what they want to believe. It's human nature. That's why you can have so many varying opinions on "tape". Add to that are you watching all the tape or just the latest tape?

Barkley, Reid and McDonald all had draftniks having googly eyes after thier Junior seasons. The tape was there. Especially Barkley who showed great improvement year to year from Freshman to Junior. What changed so dramatically in 1 year? Well, bye bye Ryan Kalil, Holmes was hurt...the talent drop off was significant (I know people hate to hear that about USC) but the defense was atrocious too. USC starts to lose games and all of sudden the worry warts come out and every mistake is magnified on top prospects. The longer you are in the limelight, the tougher it is to withstand criticism. We see it all the time.

So go back to the tape you say? Reid's junior year was AWESOME! Heck he was surrounded by Mo Claiborne, Tyrann Matheiu, had big ole Brockers up front. The tape was BAD ASS!

So I say, you gotta be careful of tape. Your eyes will lead you to what you want to believe versus what is really going on with the player's scenario vs the player's own ability. It's easy to look good with good players around you. Vice versa. It's easy to hop on a bandwagon based off the latest draft rumblings. Everyone wants to believe in the new "sexy name".

We see it all the time. A guy will get hyped and all of a sudden the tape you see you fall in love with. Or a guy will have a bad game on a big stage and he sucks now. Be careful of not just overrating new hype and overanalyzing old hype.

A lot of times it comes down to opportunity. It's really hard to grade players unless they are in a vacuum and the closest thing to that is the Combine and the Interviews. If you're a strong character guy and you did well in the drills that will find you an opportunity. Bad tape and all, NFL coaches think they can coach a player up. Hello Dontari Poe!

Bottom line is that tape shouldn't be the basis. You gotta TAKE IT ALL into account. The good tape, the bad tape, the situations, the history, the make up, the size, the measurables, the skills, the football knowledge, the hunger and passion, the motor, the smarts, the competitiveness, the toughness, and about a million other things. There is no such thing as the film tells all. The film tells a lot, I'll say that. But be careful of what you're watching.

Ah yes, you would think that's common sense. But dig a little deeper. Sometimes people see what they want to believe. It's human nature. That's why you can have so many varying opinions on "tape". Add to that are you watching all the tape or just the latest tape?

Barkley, Reid and McDonald all had draftniks having googly eyes after thier Junior seasons. The tape was there. Especially Barkley who showed great improvement year to year from Freshman to Junior. What changed so dramatically in 1 year? Well, bye bye Ryan Kalil, Holmes was hurt...the talent drop off was significant (I know people hate to hear that about USC) but the defense was atrocious too. USC starts to lose games and all of sudden the worry warts come out and every mistake is magnified on top prospects. The longer you are in the limelight, the tougher it is to withstand criticism. We see it all the time.

So go back to the tape you say? Reid's junior year was AWESOME! Heck he was surrounded by Mo Claiborne, Tyrann Matheiu, had big ole Brockers up front. The tape was BAD ASS!

So I say, you gotta be careful of tape. Your eyes will lead you to what you want to believe versus what is really going on with the player's scenario vs the player's own ability. It's easy to look good with good players around you. Vice versa. It's easy to hop on a bandwagon based off the latest draft rumblings. Everyone wants to believe in the new "sexy name".

We see it all the time. A guy will get hyped and all of a sudden the tape you see you fall in love with. Or a guy will have a bad game on a big stage and he sucks now. Be careful of not just overrating new hype and overanalyzing old hype.

A lot of times it comes down to opportunity. It's really hard to grade players unless they are in a vacuum and the closest thing to that is the Combine and the Interviews. If you're a strong character guy and you did well in the drills that will find you an opportunity. Bad tape and all, NFL coaches think they can coach a player up. Hello Dontari Poe!

Bottom line is that tape shouldn't be the basis. You gotta TAKE IT ALL into account. The good tape, the bad tape, the situations, the history, the make up, the size, the measurables, the skills, the football knowledge, the hunger and passion, the motor, the smarts, the competitiveness, the toughness, and about a million other things. There is no such thing as the film tells all. The film tells a lot, I'll say that. But be careful of what you're watching.

Even the pros have good years and bad years.

Valid points. And I agree everything must be taken into account -- certainly. However, I still believe 70-75% of the eval should be based on tape with the combines, interviews, and measurables etc. making up e rest of the eval.

On Eric Reid, I think his tape in 2011 is better, but I still don't think it's 1st round worthy

He shows better range in coverage but I see all the same deficiencies vs the run as I see in 2012. Poor tackling, more of a hitter. Tackles high and gets lots of tackles broken on him by NFL quality RB's. angles are poor. COD and ability to redirect himself in short area is also poor -- frequently plants and lunges instead of moving towards the ball carrier.

I went back to 2011 and TRIED to like Reid, bracing myself for the possibility the Cowboys draft him and I can't do it. I really believe the better tape in 2011 was because there simply weren't many holes for him to cover. He had the best CB's in the nation locking guys down and never putting him in a position where he was vulnerable.

And for what it's worth, I never got caught up in the hype on Barkley or McDonald. I've always been aware of their flaws.

In fact, the reason Peter King blocked me on twitter is because of the 2011 Stanford vs. USC game. King tweeted "Matt Barkley is a lot closer to Andrew Luck than you all realize"

I responded by telling King he's a fool with no eye for the game. He's simply an aggregator of knowledge, rumors, and tips given to him by those in the business which he converts into stories and articles.

Any writer with Kings connections could do what he does without even watching a game.

Anyway, Barkley plays small. Always has. Measured in at 6'2" but his wide stance and heavy bend he plays with drops him to be more like 5'11". His arm never improved after the sophomore season. His balls have always fluttered, never threw a tight spiral, which caused me to claim he had small hands (which turned out to be inaccurate, his hands are actually pretty large) but none the less, he throws ducks on the reg.

His success, to me, was a product oh have Matt Khalil and Tyron Smith as his tackles for his 1st 2 years, and Khalil through his junior season. Throw in some pretty good college running backs (Marc Tyler, Havili, Redd, Etc) and 2 starting NFL receivers in Woods & Lee and its going to be hard to fail.

Beyond that, over 50% of his passes were 5 yards or less over the course of his college career. His stats are so inflated off bubble screens its sickening.

I actually got into a discussion w Dane Bruglar and a few others on twitter over this. Myself, and eventually Evan Silva, were trying to point out all of Barkleys flaws to these guys since 2011. It wasnt until the regular season ended THIS year that all of them said "well he's not as good as we thought, but he's definitely a 1st rounder"

We kept harping on it, saying no, no he's like a 2nd/3rd rounder and slowly but surely people started to come around to it.

Now that Cosell says it, it's gospel.

McDonald -- I don't even think I need to go into an eval because I'm not sure anyone thinks he's worth anything.

And I know you're not saying you personally like Reid, Barkley, McDonald whoever, but I'm just telling you how I saw and how I see things.

If you need humbling you can always come back here to your roots where we will always acknowledge you at the very highest.... an equal. Never more. haha

Go chase your thing. Wish you luck.

I'm half kidding bro. Honestly, I feel like anyone can do it if they put in the time and set their biases aside.

The only college teams I root for are USC and GT so I'm usually extra critical on those players but outside of that, it just takes time.

If anyone on these boards really committed themselves and were privy to all 22 college film, they can give a great opinion.

I've put in more time this year on "film study" than all my other years combined and I can honestly say it made a difference. But I don't have a family or anyone to answer to so I can do more than the average dude.

We're all at a disadvantage here being limited to cut ups of regular game film.

Corey Lemonier's stock is one that I have been watching very closely over the last couple of weeks. I think at this point he is a mid to late 2nd pick with the potential to slide because he isn't an ideal fit for all schemes. At 6'3 255 he looks to be best slotted as an OLB in the 3-4 but he doesn't have a natural feel for dropping in coverage and appears stiff when moving in space. As a 4-3 end he has a nice blend of straight line speed and lower body strength but is a liability against the run if he is caught in a phone booth with a tackle. Also tends to get high out of his stance and doesn't always show natural bend as an edge rusher which allows lineman to push him wide of his rush lane.

That being said, he is a high motor guy who has the physical tools to develop into a plus pass rusher from the weakside. Displays strong wrap up skills and looks to strip the ball when attacking QB's and RB's in space. Does a nice job of pursuing plays outside his area and has good film of him chasing down plays from behind. Continues to work as a pass rusher even if he is washed out of the play and works around the protection back to the QB. Schematically he should benefit from being split out in the wide alignment set up for the weakside end in the Tampa Two. Ideal fit for a developmental rush end behind Ware, giving him time to develop under Marinelli's teaching and saving some tread on DeMarcus's tires.

This is a very deep class of DE's so it isn't inconceivable that Lemonier falls into the third round. If that is the case I would love to add him considering what has been done with the first two picks. (hopefully offensive line/ DT/S)

edit: there was supposed to be a highlight film in the spoiler but it isn't loading for some reason.

The Cowboys appear to be eyeing two running backs in particular: Oklahoma State's Joseph Randle and Michigan State's Le'Veon Bell. Randle appears to have announced via Twitter that he'll be visiting with the Cowboys on Tuesday

(S) Jonathan Cyprien, Florida International Ė Cyprien isnít a major force at the LOS but is a willing support factor vs the run. Heíll come off the edge & stack w/ leverage, but shows inconsistent shed. He will fill inside and can face up tackle. Shows good over the top speed to support corners from deep 1/3. Has excellent up field burst & acceleration, will strike the receiver in the flat. A physical force. Cyprien is more of a free safety, centerfield type player in the secondary with excellent key & diagnose. Quick to read & react.

Then on twitter he followed up by saying Cyprien is a FS all the way in his eyes.

Interesting to me that both Cosell and Sundquist see Cyprien's strengths as a cover guy. As ive maintained all along, Cyp has the skills to do it all. Interchangeable safety.

Ah yes, you would think that's common sense. But dig a little deeper. Sometimes people see what they want to believe. It's human nature. That's why you can have so many varying opinions on "tape". Add to that are you watching all the tape or just the latest tape?

Barkley, Reid and McDonald all had draftniks having googly eyes after thier Junior seasons. The tape was there. Especially Barkley who showed great improvement year to year from Freshman to Junior. What changed so dramatically in 1 year? Well, bye bye Ryan Kalil, Holmes was hurt...the talent drop off was significant (I know people hate to hear that about USC) but the defense was atrocious too. USC starts to lose games and all of sudden the worry warts come out and every mistake is magnified on top prospects. The longer you are in the limelight, the tougher it is to withstand criticism. We see it all the time.

So go back to the tape you say? Reid's junior year was AWESOME! Heck he was surrounded by Mo Claiborne, Tyrann Matheiu, had big ole Brockers up front. The tape was BAD ASS!

So I say, you gotta be careful of tape. Your eyes will lead you to what you want to believe versus what is really going on with the player's scenario vs the player's own ability. It's easy to look good with good players around you. Vice versa. It's easy to hop on a bandwagon based off the latest draft rumblings. Everyone wants to believe in the new "sexy name".

We see it all the time. A guy will get hyped and all of a sudden the tape you see you fall in love with. Or a guy will have a bad game on a big stage and he sucks now. Be careful of not just overrating new hype and overanalyzing old hype.

A lot of times it comes down to opportunity. It's really hard to grade players unless they are in a vacuum and the closest thing to that is the Combine and the Interviews. If you're a strong character guy and you did well in the drills that will find you an opportunity. Bad tape and all, NFL coaches think they can coach a player up. Hello Dontari Poe!

Bottom line is that tape shouldn't be the basis. You gotta TAKE IT ALL into account. The good tape, the bad tape, the situations, the history, the make up, the size, the measurables, the skills, the football knowledge, the hunger and passion, the motor, the smarts, the competitiveness, the toughness, and about a million other things. There is no such thing as the film tells all. The film tells a lot, I'll say that. But be careful of what you're watching.

Even the pros have good years and bad years.

Some very solid points here, I say you start with tape then look to see how they perform in the post season including the Senior Bowl if they are eligible, the Combine and their pro days. Once a scout or GM has a solid idea of what kind of athlete he has and gets a look at his character in the interview process plus talking to his coaches, then you go back and review the same film to see how a prospect uses his attributes on the field.

I agree that a confusing factor is always the talent base around which a prospect played with. Judging Alabama players like Lacy who had no post season because of injuries, makes it extremely difficult to project him at the next level. Even a guy like Warmack, can be hard to judge with Jones playing right beside him and 2 great OT's on his outside. Always a tough call.

However, 1 point a lot of draftniks forget, is the ability of coaches, scouts and GM's to recognize talent during a workout, I coached baseball for 25 years and I could tell in practice, who had it and who didn't, I didn't need to see a guy play to tell me his potential although occasionally I did change my mind, but for the most part, what I saw was what I got in games.

Corey Lemonier's stock is one that I have been watching very closely over the last couple of weeks. I think at this point he is a mid to late 2nd pick with the potential to slide because he isn't an ideal fit for all schemes. At 6'3 255 he looks to be best slotted as an OLB in the 3-4 but he doesn't have a natural feel for dropping in coverage and appears stiff when moving in space. As a 4-3 end he has a nice blend of straight line speed and lower body strength but is a liability against the run if he is caught in a phone booth with a tackle. Also tends to get high out of his stance and doesn't always show natural bend as an edge rusher which allows lineman to push him wide of his rush lane.

That being said, he is a high motor guy who has the physical tools to develop into a plus pass rusher from the weakside. Displays strong wrap up skills and looks to strip the ball when attacking QB's and RB's in space. Does a nice job of pursuing plays outside his area and has good film of him chasing down plays from behind. Continues to work as a pass rusher even if he is washed out of the play and works around the protection back to the QB. Schematically he should benefit from being split out in the wide alignment set up for the weakside end in the Tampa Two. Ideal fit for a developmental rush end behind Ware, giving him time to develop under Marinelli's teaching and saving some tread on DeMarcus's tires.

This is a very deep class of DE's so it isn't inconceivable that Lemonier falls into the third round. If that is the case I would love to add him considering what has been done with the first two picks. (hopefully offensive line/ DT/S)

edit: there was supposed to be a highlight film in the spoiler but it isn't loading for some reason.

The last half of Auburn's season, Lemonier quit on his team and played terribly down the stretch. There is no doubt he is talented but his motor is inconsistent and that is why he is getting little love from scouts and GM's.
Sure, it is easy to say he had reasons for quitting on his team but guys with true high motors just don't do it, but he did and will pay for it on draft day.
Could be a real steal of the draft or just another prospect who cannot be counted on. Tough call. Would definitely fit Dallas' system.

I like Randle. Still need to watch Bell. Glad they're doing work on running backs.

I wonder if the team will look at Lattimore -- getting injured players who drop seems to be a theme lately.

I like all 3 but Randle is definitely a change of pace 3rd down back and I think Dallas needs a tough RB in case Murray gets injured.

I watch Michigan St.'s games living near Detroit and he is soft for a big man. He perfers to try and make the tackler miss rather than use his weight to attack him. Also perfers to run outside than up the gut.

Lattimore is a very tough call. I'm sure we've all seen his injury film and it was as ugly as anything I've ever watched and it wasn't his first knee injury.
I find it hard to believe he can fully recover from it and he is obviously injury prone, I wouldn't touch him before round 4/5 IMO. Fans are caught up in wishful thinking if they believe he will be a stud at the next level.

(S) Jonathan Cyprien, Florida International Ė Cyprien isnít a major force at the LOS but is a willing support factor vs the run. Heíll come off the edge & stack w/ leverage, but shows inconsistent shed. He will fill inside and can face up tackle. Shows good over the top speed to support corners from deep 1/3. Has excellent up field burst & acceleration, will strike the receiver in the flat. A physical force. Cyprien is more of a free safety, centerfield type player in the secondary with excellent key & diagnose. Quick to read & react.

Then on twitter he followed up by saying Cyprien is a FS all the way in his eyes.

Interesting to me that both Cosell and Sundquist see Cyprien's strengths as a cover guy. As ive maintained all along, Cyp has the skills to do it all. Interchangeable safety.