Lamaredia wrote:Mate, I hope you fucking realize that the playerbase are the ones who vote the admins into position, and we are also the ones who hold the right to remove them from said office if needed.

The admins are already voted into position. One just got elected. The need to remove one or any of them isn't obvious or transparent. What has Merizoc done *in context of transparent gameplay on Forum 7 on this website* that should cause me alarm? I'm coming up with nothing and not a goddamned thing. Show me something he has done within the scope of what we can all see, or stop wasting time. No offense.

Since mentioning exactly what he has done will get me a ban on the forums due to the subject matter that it handles, I can't tell you here. However, if you read through previous posts in the lobby, you should understand quite quickly.

EDIT: I can mention two things. Basically ignoring Ainin when he was told that secret ballots aren't a part of what was envisioned with the GEA, and instead just basically shrugging the criticism off. Completely ignoring precedent when it comes to expulsion of members due to acts both in and outside of Forum 7, by warning those involved and asking the site admins to remove the posts.

Last edited by Lamaredia on Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Nulla Bellum wrote:What has Merizoc done *in context of transparent gameplay on Forum 7 on this website* that should cause me alarm? I’m coming up with nothing and not a goddamned thing. Show me something he has done within the scope of what we can all see, or stop wasting time. No offense.

^This. People on the forum have no way of knowing how legitimate claims made by Judah are. Not everyone is on Discord and you should not expect everyone to automatically believe your claims. Be as specific and clear as possible.

Lamaredia wrote:Since mentioning exactly what he has done will get me a ban on the forums due to the subject matter that it handles, I can’t tell you here. However, if you read through previous posts in the lobby, you should understand quite quickly.

EDIT: I can mention one thing. Basically ignoring Ainin when he was told that secret ballots aren’t a part of what was envisioned with the GEA, and instead just basically shrugging the criticism off. Completely ignoring precedent when it comes to expulsion of members due to acts both in and outside of Forum 7, by warning those involved and asking the site admins to remove the posts.

Nulla Bellum wrote:What has Merizoc done *in context of transparent gameplay on Forum 7 on this website* that should cause me alarm? I’m coming up with nothing and not a goddamned thing. Show me something he has done within the scope of what we can all see, or stop wasting time. No offense.

^This. People on the forum have no way of knowing how legitimate claims made by Judah are. Not everyone is on Discord and you should not expect everyone to automatically believe your claims. Be as specific and clear as possible.

Lamaredia wrote:Since mentioning exactly what he has done will get me a ban on the forums due to the subject matter that it handles, I can’t tell you here. However, if you read through previous posts in the lobby, you should understand quite quickly.

EDIT: I can mention one thing. Basically ignoring Ainin when he was told that secret ballots aren’t a part of what was envisioned with the GEA, and instead just basically shrugging the criticism off. Completely ignoring precedent when it comes to expulsion of members due to acts both in and outside of Forum 7, by warning those involved and asking the site admins to remove the posts.

Nulla Bellum wrote:The admins are already voted into position. One just got elected. The need to remove one or any of them isn't obvious or transparent. What has Merizoc done *in context of transparent gameplay on Forum 7 on this website* that should cause me alarm? I'm coming up with nothing and not a goddamned thing. Show me something he has done within the scope of what we can all see, or stop wasting time. No offense.

Since mentioning exactly what he has done will get me a ban on the forums due to the subject matter that it handles, I can't tell you here. However, if you read through previous posts in the lobby, you should understand quite quickly.

EDIT: I can mention two things. Basically ignoring Ainin when he was told that secret ballots aren't a part of what was envisioned with the GEA, and instead just basically shrugging the criticism off. Completely ignoring precedent when it comes to expulsion of members due to acts both in and outside of Forum 7, by warning those involved and asking the site admins to remove the posts.

I didn’t ignore ainin. I talked to him, I listened, and I gave my opinion. Then I went to the other admins and did the same thing. And collectively we decided to do exactly what ainin wanted. Where is the problem here? These are imagined grievances.

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Nulla Bellum wrote:What has Merizoc done *in context of transparent gameplay on Forum 7 on this website* that should cause me alarm? I’m coming up with nothing and not a goddamned thing. Show me something he has done within the scope of what we can all see, or stop wasting time. No offense.

^This. People on the forum have no way of knowing how legitimate claims made by Judah are. Not everyone is on Discord and you should not expect everyone to automatically believe your claims. Be as specific and clear as possible.

Lamaredia wrote:Since mentioning exactly what he has done will get me a ban on the forums due to the subject matter that it handles, I can’t tell you here. However, if you read through previous posts in the lobby, you should understand quite quickly.

EDIT: I can mention one thing. Basically ignoring Ainin when he was told that secret ballots aren’t a part of what was envisioned with the GEA, and instead just basically shrugging the criticism off. Completely ignoring precedent when it comes to expulsion of members due to acts both in and outside of Forum 7, by warning those involved and asking the site admins to remove the posts.

Collatis wrote:^This. People on the forum have no way of knowing how legitimate claims made by Judah are. Not everyone is on Discord and you should not expect everyone to automatically believe your claims. Be as specific and clear as possible.

Collatis wrote:^This. People on the forum have no way of knowing how legitimate claims made by Judah are. Not everyone is on Discord and you should not expect everyone to automatically believe your claims. Be as specific and clear as possible.

Collatis wrote:I understand that the vote is a secret vote, but obviously the admins will be seeing the votes. I assume Merizoc won’t be one of those seeing the votes, but I think it should be clearly established that he won’t.

Nulla Bellum wrote:The admins are already voted into position. One just got elected. The need to remove one or any of them isn't obvious or transparent. What has Merizoc done *in context of transparent gameplay on Forum 7 on this website* that should cause me alarm? I'm coming up with nothing and not a goddamned thing. Show me something he has done within the scope of what we can all see, or stop wasting time. No offense.

Since mentioning exactly what he has done will get me a ban on the forums due to the subject matter that it handles, I can't tell you here. However, if you read through previous posts in the lobby, you should understand quite quickly.

So, offsite activity I'm not and don't care to be privy to, regarding subject matter unrelated to onsite gameplay. Nothing, and not a goddamned thing, in that order. Merizoc did not upload the posts that got people banned by the site moderators after warnings. I'm no fan of the mod team (I'm probably one right-wing post away from DEAT at any given moment, heh) but this lex talionis vote for Merizoc's head seems to be a disagreement with the site mods, not the game admins or even the game itself. Merizoc didn't defy the site mods. Those banned and deleted players did.

Again, what does this have to do with the game?

EDIT: I can mention two things. Basically ignoring Ainin when he was told that secret ballots aren't a part of what was envisioned with the GEA, and instead just basically shrugging the criticism off. Completely ignoring precedent when it comes to expulsion of members due to acts both in and outside of Forum 7, by warning those involved and asking the site admins to remove the posts.

Quick rebuttal to the point about how IRC shouldn't be considered in the debate to impeach. The #NSG_Senate IRC channel runs as the semi-official channel for the Senate. Prior to this incident, NSG Senate admins were granted OP powers in order to cement the channel's status as an official channel for the Senate and to keep discourse on the IRC civil. However, due to the recent incidents, these powers have been suspended from the admins in order to ensure the continued operation of the IRC channel and safety of those on the channel so that unilateral action isn't taken by admins which damages the channel.

To clarify, bans on the IRC channel are often made as a joke among friends and just left in place for a couple minutes or so. On the other hand, many bans are far more serious and remain in place on a long term or even permanent basis, which makes clearing the banlist unilaterally a very harmful action to the community as it presents a danger to members and the channel and removes important precedents. I was wrong to give benefit of the doubt when it occurred, as shown by the recent action of the admins. This as well shows how behaviour on the IRC can often translate to behaviour on the forums, hence why IRC incidents are being mentioned in the impeachment proposal. The IRC prides itself on having an active and thoughtful moderation team and will continue to do so as well as providing an important service to the community to discuss RL politics and events without cluttering the forums.

Lamaredia wrote:Since mentioning exactly what he has done will get me a ban on the forums due to the subject matter that it handles, I can't tell you here. However, if you read through previous posts in the lobby, you should understand quite quickly.

So, offsite activity I'm not and don't care to be privy to, regarding subject matter unrelated to onsite gameplay. Nothing, and not a goddamned thing, in that order. Merizoc did not upload the posts that got people banned by the site moderators after warnings. I'm no fan of the mod team (I'm probably one right-wing post away from DEAT at any given moment, heh) but this lex talionis vote for Merizoc's head seems to be a disagreement with the site mods, not the game admins or even the game itself. Merizoc didn't defy the site mods. Those banned and deleted players did.

Again, what does this have to do with the game?

This is why the issues were discussed offsite. The site mods didn't like us discussing it here and all but a couple of us respected that.

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Soviet Canuckistan wrote:Quick rebuttal to the point about how IRC shouldn't be considered in the debate to impeach. The #NSG_Senate IRC channel runs as the semi-official channel for the Senate. Prior to this incident, NSG Senate admins were granted OP powers in order to cement the channel's status as an official channel for the Senate and to keep discourse on the IRC civil. However, due to the recent incidents, these powers have been suspended from the admins in order to ensure the continued operation of the IRC channel and safety of those on the channel so that unilateral action isn't taken by admins which damages the channel.

To clarify, bans on the IRC channel are often made as a joke among friends and just left in place for a couple minutes or so. On the other hand, many bans are far more serious and remain in place on a long term or even permanent basis, which makes clearing the banlist unilaterally a very harmful action to the community as it presents a danger to members and the channel and removes important precedents. I was wrong to give benefit of the doubt when it occurred, as shown by the recent action of the admins. This as well shows how behaviour on the IRC can often translate to behaviour on the forums, hence why IRC incidents are being mentioned in the impeachment proposal. The IRC prides itself on having an active and thoughtful moderation team and will continue to do so as well as providing an important service to the community to discuss RL politics and events without cluttering the forums.

Participation in the IRC is neither necessary or expected of walk-in players like myself. It has nothing to do with *actual gameplay on Forum 7*

Simply put, if it didn't happen in NSSenate threads on Forum 7 everyone can read, it didn't happen. I'm not going to vote to impeach a game admin for something / anything not done on a game thread and not related to game play. The game is here, on Nationstates Forum 7, not anywhere else.

Collatis wrote:Reposting this since it kind of got buried in the debate.

Collatis wrote:I understand that the vote is a secret vote, but obviously the admins will be seeing the votes. I assume Merizoc won’t be one of those seeing the votes, but I think it should be clearly established that he won’t.

This is correct. Me and the other admins (excluding Merizoc), will be able to see the results.

Also, I understand the situation is tense and this matter is controversial but, let's keep it in a respecting manner, okay?

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Nulla Bellum wrote:Maybe there shouldn’t be an “outside Forum 7" component to this game?

I think platforms like Discord and IRC have the potential to be beneficial to the game, as they have been in the past. However, they shouldn’t be an essential part of the game.

Exactly. Throw out the IRC-based grievances and we're left with an attempt to end-around the NationStates site rules / banhammers cleverly disguised as a bullshit claim.

My choices are try to break up this circle jerk with a nay vote and move on with the game in progress, or find a different game. I boarded the plane for Funville. I don't want to see Pennsylvania farmland up close. This noise has hijacked the game long enough.

Nulla Bellum: To be clear, some of the complaints against Merizoc do come from the IRC. This is in part because his activities there have had direct impact on the forum game, but also because they are far below the standards of activity that we should hold admins to, including flaming a number of users (including repeatedly calling me a murderer for my military service) and, an act for which I believe he should have been banned from the RP involving Freyhill. Even discarding IRC activity in particular, we are still left with his, along with the rest of the admin teams, repeated failures to fully explain actions they have taken or why they have chosen not to take an action, he has suppressed discussion of removing a player from the RP in the manner established by precedent and without showing even the slightest interest in establishing a new avenue to do so, has also had posts removed and warnings issued for a discussion in Arch's nomination thread that by all descriptions, even those offered by the admins, seemed to be about future incidents and not past ones, and, by his own admission I must point out, Merizoc was intent to change the nature of the RP without input from the community and only did not because he was restrained from doing so by the remainder of the admin team.

He is unfit to be an admin, which is why I am trying to have him removed.

Last edited by House of Judah on Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

House of Judah wrote:Nulla Bellum: To be clear, some of the complaints against Merizoc do come from the IRC. This is in part because his activities there have had direct impact on the forum game, but also because they are far below the standards of activity that we should hold admins to, including flaming a number of users (including repeatedly calling me a murderer for my military service) and, an act for which I believe he should have been banned from the RP involving Freyhill.

Sounds like free speech got deployed. Did anybody die? It seems to me you came back to a game where Merizoc is an admin with no gun to your head.

Even discarding IRC activity in particular, we are still left with his, along with the rest of the admin teams, repeated failures to fully explain actions they have taken or why they have chosen not to take an action, he has suppressed discussion of removing a player from the RP in the manner established by precedent and without showing even the slightest interest in establishing a new avenue to do so, has also had posts removed and warnings issued for a discussion in Arch's nomination thread that by all descriptions, even those offered by the admins, seemed to be about future incidents and not past ones, and, by his own admission I must point out, Merizoc was intent to change the nature of the RP without input from the community and only did not because he was restrained from doing so by the remainder of the admin team.