You're absolutely right. If it is the truth that there is no God, then there is no sin either. Neither is there any hope for anyone after death. You
just wink out. But if there is a God, you'd be sacrificing eternal happiness just so you can be right. I've never understood why atheists
choose to believe there's no hope, no God, no salvation, no afterlife. Wouldn't you truly (and logically) rather have something to look
forward to than a void of non-existence?

So what you're saying is, believe just in case. Doesn't that make you a bad Christian? You're believing in a god on the off chance that it's right
so you can get in to heaven. Doesn't sound very good to me.

Belief isn't a choice, if it's a choice then it's not true belief is it? If someone doesn't believe in a god then what's the point of pretending
to believe just in case? There is no point, they have better things to do.

What you just said reassures my conclusion that most religious people in this day and age "believe" simply because they don't want to believe that
there is nothing after death, and our life on Earth is all we have. That isn't belief, it's forced belief.

Originally posted by SpearMint
Whoa there, no it isn't. It is the belief that there is no god. It is in no way a religion.

The entire agenda and purpose behind false religion is to keep the truth HIDDEN.

Atheism and religion are NO different, BOTH are part of the SAME agenda.

Both are nothing more than stealth mind control tools.

Atheism is just another fundamentalist Illuminati mind control Religion with a stealth agenda.

You HAVE to be joking. If you aren't, I have no intention of continuing this discussion.

A lack of belief is not a religion, by definition Atheism is not a religion. Also, religion pre-dates the supposed illuminati, if it existed.
Civilizations developed their own religions independently to fill the gap that science is now filling, the answers to questions. Therefore there
cannot be a combined agenda.

I didn't say that was why I believe. It's not "just in case" for me. That would be selfish. I believe there's a divine creator, an intelligent
designer, because I can see no other logical conclusion. If there was a Big Bang, where'd it come from? And where did its cause come from? That
train of thought regresses into infinity. Mankind has yet to come up with an explanation for the universe's existence; all they have are theories. If
you don't throw theology into the mix, no solution is possible... and once you do throw theology in, a creator becomes axiomatic, inescapable.
I have no clue as to God's nature; pure thought and energy makes the most sense to me, an entity that has always resided outside of this universe
(which is the only way the creator could have created it). But not understanding something doesn't preclude its existence. Absence of evidence isn't
evidence of absence; a cliche, I know, but very true.

It's impossible to prove God exists; it's impossible to prove he doesn't exist. But to me, scientifically, his existence is far more
likely. If he exists, he created my soul, and yours. And I'll love him for it until I die cease to exist.

Fabulous video... but one must believe their life consists of more than the red tape before one will begin to think about their post-Earth existence.
There's gonna be a whole lotta really surprised people, come Judgement Day...

If a human commits a crime, and has a conscience, then he will regret that crime. If a human commits a crime, but doesn't have a conscience, then he
will not regret it. These humans may put on a good show of begging forgiveness, but it's only to reduce the suffering they may experience from their
punishment. Humans cannot change the chemical make-up of their brain. The bible is asking of us what simply cannot be achieved. To order us to be more
than human is no different than ordering a lion to be a sheep - impossible.

Originally posted by jiggerj
If a human commits a crime, and has a conscience, then he will regret that crime. If a human commits a crime, but doesn't have a conscience, then
he-

-doesn't have the Holy Spirit and hence isn't a Christian, and the laws of forgiveness don't apply to him.

...will not regret it. These humans may put on a good show of begging forgiveness, but it's only to reduce the suffering they may experience
from their punishment.

Their punishment from their fellow man, perhaps. No amount of crocodile tears or false sob stories will fool The Ultimate Judge.

Humans cannot change the chemical make-up of their brain. The bible is asking of us what simply cannot be achieved. To order us to be more than
human is no different than ordering a lion to be a sheep - impossible.

This is true. And it's why Christ made himself available to us: to save us from our own human natures. We cannot achieve perfection; that is indeed
impossible. So instead, we have repentance, which gains us forgiveness, which makes us worthy to receive that which we do not deserve. This is the
definition of "Grace." Mercy. Compassion. John 3:16 isn't the most-famous Bible verse for nothing.

Originally posted by SpearMint
Sin is just a tactic religions use to control people through fear and/or guilt. Simple.

edit on 1-1-2013 by SpearMint because: (no reason
given)

Really? So committing murder isn't really a sin. We just call it that to control people? And stealing isn't really a sin? Lieing to get an
innocent person in trouble isn't a sin?

Perhaps if people had self-control there would be no need for methods to "control" but, since self-control is too hard, we as flawed human beings
need rules to live by. You break the rules, you pay the consequences in this life or the next.

Fabulous video... but one must believe their life consists of more than the red tape before one will begin to think about their post-Earth existence.
There's gonna be a whole lotta really surprised people, come Judgement Day...

If a human commits a crime, and has a conscience, then he will regret that crime. If a human commits a crime, but doesn't have a conscience, then he
will not regret it. These humans may put on a good show of begging forgiveness, but it's only to reduce the suffering they may experience from their
punishment. Humans cannot change the chemical make-up of their brain. The bible is asking of us what simply cannot be achieved. To order us to be more
than human is no different than ordering a lion to be a sheep - impossible.

This is what God understood. That is why He sent His Son to atone for our sins.
The Bible is asking us to strive to be good. If you read the Bible you see many people who sinned but were forgiven. Their faith was their salvation
not their good works.

Originally posted by 1PLA1
This is what God understood. That is why He sent His Son to atone for our sins.
The Bible is asking us to strive to be good. If you read the Bible you see many people who sinned but were forgiven. Their faith was their salvation
not their good works.

And this all makes sense to you? Someone without sin had to shed their blood and die for us so that this "almighty"
god could have the power to forgive us? Shedding blood = forgiveness of wrong doings? Why? He set that rule up....why? It wasn't enough for
someone to ask for forgiveness from the heart? Someone had to die (and of course come back to life to live in heaven for all eternity)?

How is it that puny creatures such as us could offend an almighty god by doing "bad" things? Would this intelligent god not understand why we are
the way we are? Would he not have sympathy for us? Instead, he will torture us forever if we can't muster the faith the believe in this particular
god? It doesn't make sense.

This is nurture at it's best. Teach a child the bible, teach them your morals and most likely they will aspire to those ideals and live by them.
Put them in a place without that same knowledge and give the exact opposite and their version of sin will change. If I teach stealing is the way to
make others realize their possessions are not for them, but for the strong, the child will learn, adapt and act this way throughout their life.

Prove that wrong and you will prove to me that your version of Sin is correct.

For now, I believe Nurture determines sin within your own mind. Like you said, everyone's idea of Sin is different and for some it can be masochistic,
self-centered or destructive. Depending on the teacher. So if the world were raised to be killers, murderers, etc.. and all of us were taught these
were good, it's safe to say we would be in the dark ages explaining why God allows us to do those evil things and why it's good.

The thing about humans is we adapt pretty quickly to our environment and if something is told to us over and over enough times our version of sin
changes. It's proven in history. Hanging people was OK and acceptable to many in the early 1700's and even earlier then that. In the 21st century it
is considered archaic and immoral.

Even the Priests of the time agreed with hangings and killings of the unholy, but today they hold all life in high regard and will even protect the
sinners.

How does one look at God after they know this? To me, if God himself wanted us to be good he would have been more directly involved, but it seems he
does not care one way or another. Just look at this world. We are left to our own devices, our own version of sin. That to me does not prove God wants
us to be Good, it proves he wants us to experience, that's about it.

Everything else is your own assumptions and nurturing.

I refuse to believe our freedom of choice was given to us just to refrain from using it. Of course I don't aspire to be a immoral person in today's
terms and due to nurturing there is no going back now, but the fact is in 50 years my version of sin will be antiquated and forgotten mostly and a new
version will be true. God does not care one way or another it seems, for even the devout believers of God sin, and sometimes sin worse then the
average joe.

The God theory is an interesting one because we humans want to believe there is a higher power then our feeble selves. Fact is though we will never
see that power and if you do, your dead.

If sin is going to stop me from moving on whether it be to paradise or a higher existence I prefer the buddhist teachings of Karma.
If you do wrong in this life you receive that Karma in the next, certainly thats a fair system.
I ask a question. What of the billions of souls that have come before who has never known the teachings of the Christian God and therefore lived by a
different set of rules. Think Maya, Chinese, Indian, Polynesian, Australian Aboriginal, American Indian, Inuit Eskimo the list goes on.
Would they all be blocked into the gates of heaven because they never had an opportunity to know and understand Jesus.
It makes for a stupid argument and proves that Christianity and its Dogma has some severe issues not withstanding its narrow view and
exclusiveness.
Peace

Following Buddha or ANY other religion will only lead you AWAY from the truth.

TRUE enlightenment cannot happen without LIGHT, the light of god.

I was told to look at another person who was in the fire. I saw a man with very long hair wrapped on the left hand side of his head. He was also
wearing a robe. I asked the king of hell, "Who is this man?" He replied, "This is the one you worship: Gautama [Buddha]." I was very disturbed to
see Gautama in hell. I protested, "Gautama had good ethnics and good moral character, why is he suffering in this lake of fire?" The king of hell
answered me, "It doesn't matter how good he was. He is in this place because he did not believe in the Eternal God."

This is true. And it's why Christ made himself available to us: to save us from our own human natures. We cannot achieve perfection; that is indeed
impossible. So instead, we have repentance, which gains us forgiveness,

Once again, if a person has a conscience he will regret (repent) bad choices automatically, but a person without a conscience will not repent because
it just isn't within him to do so.

Originally posted by SpearMint
Sin is just a tactic religions use to control people through fear and/or guilt. Simple.

edit on 1-1-2013 by SpearMint because: (no reason
given)

Really? So committing murder isn't really a sin. We just call it that to control people? And stealing isn't really a sin? Lieing to get an
innocent person in trouble isn't a sin?

Perhaps if people had self-control there would be no need for methods to "control" but, since self-control is too hard, we as flawed human beings
need rules to live by. You break the rules, you pay the consequences in this life or the next.

There is no such thing as a sin, you're talking about laws based on morals which are used to control people as well, for a good cause. Religious sins
extend beyond that however.

To discover what sin is, read the Law in the Books of Moses. To discover why it is sin, remember that God is the creator, and He created His
creatures to a design, a plan and a purpose. We could (and will!) define SIN as any deviation from God's design, plan, or purpose which tends to
defeat that design, plan or purpose. Any actions which are contrary to the fulfillment of our reason for being here are sins. Consider the way God
designed us to reproduce: sex. He blessed and initiated the man-woman relationship known as marriage, by which we multiply and replenish the earth
with more of ourselves. Homosexuality defeats this design, plan and purpose, therefore it is a sin. Even if you feel good and guiltless about it, it
is a sin. Even if it is legal, it is a sin. I could mention many more examples such as murder, stealing, lies, etc. God expects us to behave
according to His standards, and if we do not, we are sinners.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
To discover what sin is, read the Law in the Books of Moses. To discover why it is sin, remember that God is the creator, and He created His
creatures to a design, a plan and a purpose. We could (and will!) define SIN as any deviation from God's design, plan, or purpose which tends to
defeat that design, plan or purpose. Any actions which are contrary to the fulfillment of our reason for being here are sins.

Why are we here and what is our purpose? What about our free will?

Consider the way God designed us to reproduce: sex. He blessed and initiated the man-woman relationship known as marriage, by which we
multiply and replenish the earth with more of ourselves. Homosexuality defeats this design, plan and purpose, therefore it is a sin. Even if you
feel good and guiltless about it, it is a sin. Even if it is legal, it is a sin. I could mention many more examples such as murder, stealing, lies,
etc. God expects us to behave according to His standards, and if we do not, we are sinners.

What if a man and woman are in love, but don't want to have children, and therefore use birth control? Is that a "sin" in your eyes too?

How is eating pork, shellfish or wearing mixed fiber clothing unwanted behavior according to "His" standards?

How are you SURE that that guy Moses was led by was THE and THE only GOD?

This is why I say that the religious just don't get what they're actually asking for. To want a biblical god and a biblical demon means that our
purpose is to be the pawns in a game. If people are good, then god gets those pieces. If people are bad, the devil gets them. Who the [SNIP] wants to
be nothing more than a game piece?

There can be no free will if the rules are laid out for us. This is a sin, that is not a sin. Free will can only come into play if we can say, "I
don't want to play this game," and then not be punished for this choice.

Originally posted by TheCanuckian
If I teach stealing is the way to make others realize their possessions are not for them, but for the strong, the child will learn, adapt and act this
way throughout their life. Prove that wrong and you will prove to me that your version of Sin is correct.

If someone truly believes they're helping others by stealing from them, they don't sin when they steal because they think that behavior is
correct. I doubt there are any such people out there, since "stealing is wrong" is ingrained into everyone's head, so those who steal know
it's wrong and feel guilty about it... if they have a conscience. Anyone who does not have a conscience does not have the Holy Spirit
and thus is not going to get forgiveness for anything they've done wrong. "The strong should take what they want from the weak" goes
completely against "Love everyone," it's manifestly selfish, no Christian's heart would remain guilt-free after doing such a thing. If the person
you taught that to ever accepted Christ, they'd never act that way again.

So if the world were raised to be killers, murderers, etc.. and all of us were taught these were good, it's safe to say we would be in the
dark ages explaining why God allows us to do those evil things and why it's good.

Who would consider it evil if the whole world were raised to think it was good? Only Christ's followers would. We don't listen to the world's ideas
of right and wrong; Christ's law trumps man's laws. What's so wrong with "Love everyone," anyway? Why do so many people reject that lifestyle? Do
they truly believe the world would be a better place without it?

The thing about humans is we adapt pretty quickly to our environment and if something is told to us over and over enough times our version of
sin changes. It's proven in history. Hanging people was OK and acceptable to many in the early 1700's and even earlier then that. In the 21st
century it is considered archaic and immoral. Even the Priests of the time agreed with hangings and killings of the unholy, but today they hold all
life in high regard and will even protect the sinners.

Hangings and killings weren't acceptable to a lot of people back then. It was mostly the religious leaders who did that (ruling through fear);
they had the power, so they did what they wanted (just like today), and their hateful followers went along with it because they weren't loving. They
gave the leaders power and let them be evil; anyone who disagreed publicly was killed as a heretic. Their organized religions,
such as Puritanism, ignored the teachings of Christ. Just like today, if they'd ever read the Bible the whole way through and understood it, they
would never have condoned the death penalty or stonings or any of that stuff. The hateful ones weren't really Christians, thus they had no Holy
Spirit, and thus... condemned.

If God himself wanted us to be good he would have been more directly involved, but it seems he does not care one way or another. Just look at
this world. We are left to our own devices, our own version of sin. That to me does not prove God wants us to be Good, it proves he wants us to
experience, that's about it. Everything else is your own assumptions and nurturing.

Believe me, my own nurturing was quite different from how I ended up. I was raised Southern Baptist, and utterly rejected it because it was just so...
false, wrong, hypocritical, I knew those guys were nothing like Christ, I could smell it on them. But that didn't turn me from Christ, only
from Southern Baptist-hood. People have a tendency to equate man's churches with God; nothing could be further from the truth.

He wants us to choose to be good on our own. That's why he won't prove to us that he exists; it'd force people's behavior. He's letting us
sort ourselves into "Good" and "Evil" pigeonholes through our choices. That's the Meaning of Life.

I refuse to believe our freedom of choice was given to us just to refrain from using it... even the devout believers of God sin, and sometimes
sin worse then the average joe.

True, but the "devout" are usually misled, they don't understand Christ's message. We have free will so we can prove what kind of people we are...
and so we can surprise God. (Ever noticed that all humor depends on the element of surprise? God probably never laughed before we came along.) It's
my free will to be helpful and kind and try to open people's eyes. Hence this thread. Others are only motivated by selfishness. It's all
about what motivates you.

The God theory is an interesting one because we humans want to believe there is a higher power then our feeble selves. Fact is though we will
never see that power and if you do, your dead.

Nobody ever dies all the way; only bodies can die. If souls exist, we'll all meet our creator someday.

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