A sanctuary for supporters of sexual free expression and the adult sexual media.

Sunday, July 29, 2007

Women users of porn

I've been thinking of the way that much of radical feminist theory analyzes what happens when women look at porn, and wondering whether they're generally right or not. So, a question to women porn users in here: do you "identify" with a particular character when you use porn? And how and when do you use it?

In MacKinnon and Dworkin, for example, a woman who sees porn sees what she is "for," learns how men want to use her. In a lot of personal accounts I've read from women who don't like porn, a woman sees "what her man really wants." She finds herself thrust into competition with another woman, this one a too-perfect foil to heterosexual male desire. She's invariably found wanting, and this is a deeply stressful experience.

I see it assumed that even among women who like porn, the woman viewer "identifies" with the woman in heteroporn. (What about lesbian and faux lesbian porn?) But I wanted to question this -- personally, as a top, I tend to identify with the top, regardless of gender. Especially since the camera generally focuses on the bottom anyway. You tend much more often to see more glancey glimpses of the top (with occasional focus) -- which is vaguely, well, like what you see of your own body if you're doing it yourself! ;)

But I know I'm somewhat statistically odd in what I like, and also bisexual. So there's all of that.

And I'm sure that identifying with the bottom is equally complicated and interesting, particularly coming from women, who indeed aren't the target consumers of most porn. I'd love to hear about that. :)

And I also wanted to think a bit about the term "identify." I tend to put myself in the role of the top, yes, and imagine doing the same (or similar -- an image may help to shape but does not constrain my imagination) things to the bottom. But I'm not sure that's "identification." When you identify with someone, you understand them, take on their point of view, sympathize with their goals.

Sure I'm in a sense taking on that top's "point of view" -- I'm wanting to do what sie is doing. But I'm not really endorsing what that person endorses in a serious way. I have no idea who sie is. Or even who hir character is. It's not, in the average porno movie or set of digicam pictures, spelled out much at all who that character is supposed to be. Maybe some vague hints, and yes, maybe I'll think of being that character as I imagine the sex/BDSM/whatever I'm looking at.

But is that really "identification?" It seems to me "identification" with a character in, say, a novel, implies a lot of investment. If I identify with Harry Potter, I see some of myself in the character or some of the character in me. Yes, that's how it feels to lose loved ones so young. Yeah, I was a bit of a child celebrity and my friends weren't and it made things tense. Yeah, people expect me to do Big Important Shit and y'know, I feel a little like I'm seventeen and unready sometimes. Yeah, that one science teacher I had had it in for me, and hated kids. What a drag that was! Wow, I can really identify with this character.

I don't really have any conclusions to draw from any of this. But I did want to call attention to the complexity of all this and to ask other women: what DO you experience when you use porn, a medium which is supposedly not designed for you?

And heck -- men, go ahead and answer too if you like. I'd rather hear from women just because porn is so often assumed to be used by men, but I'm sure you've got interesting stories too. (Any of you ever "identify with" the people being penetrated? *grin*)

Well, not a woman, but I can tell you that men are not of one mind when it comes to the "identification" issue. Its the reason there's such a split in the het male porn world between fans of girl/girl porn and fans of boy/girl porn.

Male fans of b/g porn talk about "identifying" with the guy on screen, basically having virtual sex with the woman in the video through the guy. With male girl/girl fans (like myself), its all about voyeurism. (There may even be a subset of male g/g fans that identify with one of the girls.) And even though there's a lot of crossover, it tends to be a very basic divide in het male porn – g/g fans generally don't get into b/g stuff, and vice versa. And, interestingly, b/g fans seem to be in the majority among het male porn fans, at least if discussion on most porn forums is any indication, which is in sharp contrast to the oft-cited idea that seeing two women together is men's #1 fantasy. It is for a lot of men, but its surprising how many aren't into it at all.

Anyway, its likely that what women look at or identify with in porn is similarly diverse.

Well..I'm not a woman, either, but this brings up a few interesting issues for me, too.

I'm not going to claim to speak for anyone but myself, and perhaps it's due mostly to my own belief system as a sex-pos femininst...but I have a slightly different POV from IACB on "identification".

I can enjoy as much g/g as I do b/g scenes (and I can especially enjoy solo scenes, too); but I can identify as much with the woman in b/g scenes as I can with the man. Perhaps it's a byproduct of my "pro-female pleasure" philosophy, but I tend to watch such scenes with the woman's thoughts in mind more than I do the man's. Not that I can't identify with the man, of course, but I tend more toward attempting to get into her head, so to speak.

Of course, the truly exhibitionistic and voyeuristic person who really delights in sexual play is the ultimate bonus...these are the performers whom I watch porn specifically for, regardless of gender identification.

For the benefit of readers who don't already know this, I am a guy though not a typical one. I too, am curious about what women have to say on this. Seems we are getting more male responses, so far.

In MacKinnon and Dworkin, for example, a woman who sees porn sees what she is "for," learns how men want to use her.

I think women often read too much into porn. Porn is masturbation material.It provides the stimulation that is needed for that while constrained by the limits of the medium. Porn is generally not interactive, another person's touch is lacking, there is no validation from another person, no taste, no smell, etc.So, like non-porn movies, the women in mass market porn and the actions tend to be larger than life. In real life, just as women often go for men who aren't hunks and men often go for women who don't look like porno-babes based on taking other considerations into account. And the women in porn, like in regular movies, are chosen for a broad based appeal where actual relationships may be based on a more individual appeal.

How do I want to use her? Well, what you see on the screen might be part of it. Sure, its fun to fuck somebody like a rag doll. But normally, I concentrate on getting a woman off more than my own direct pleasure. A lot more Cunnilingus than you see in most porn. Rough stuff. Tender stuff. Talking. Horseplay. Snuggling. Sleeping.A wide range. For me, though, the question isn't so much what I want to do to her, it is what she likes.

Also, try not to extrapolate too much from your early experiences with men.Young men may be looking for experimentation, playing the field, validation, etc. and choose different partners than when they are looking for something more permanent. Men may start out looking for the Trophy, to prove to themselves and others that they can have that if they want it so that they can then go for what they actually want.

Who do I identify with? Well, I don't really identify with the guy. Often take his place, yes. Out of the way, bub, my turn. But I am not really interested in his feelings, I don't want to be him, and would probably find many of them very boring to talk to.I am interested in the girl. I am interested doing her or being done by her, interested in her feelings, and am interested in what she is (or at least would be if not acting) feeling while she is having sex, would like to know more about her, would like to talk to her (though in some cases they may not have enough depth for extended conversation), and empathize with her And I can identify with her on many levels. When I have sex with a woman, I identify with her, with the sensations she is feeling, with the reactions, emotions, etc so why not when watching porn, too? And, yeah, I can identify with being penetrated. With girl-girl porn, I can identify with either. And sometimes, it is just third person, like when I watch my friends.

"Porn is generally not interactive, another person's touch is lacking, there is no validation from another person, no taste, no smell, etc.So, like non-porn movies, the women in mass market porn and the actions tend to be larger than life"

Very good point. I was discussing Dworkin's opinion and not mine :)

And fausto, yer atypical? Golly, and I thought you were totally Adlai Atkins... ;)

I don't watch porn, mostly read erotica, and most of that is yaoi, but no matter what it is, I usually imagine myself as the person doing whatever I think is hottest at the time, while also imagining what the other person is feeling. Part of that might be because I think in words, so even though action and reaction are really happening at the same time, I can think of one as coming after the other, like in a story.

Another male here, but I imagine being bisexual and bottom-leaning informs the way I experience porn. I probably do identify, at least in a loose sense, with women more than with men in porn. Another important possibility is that seeing female arousal (whether or not it's real) is arousing for het men because we're genetically programmed to respond to it: it's a sign of availability. The doctrinaires can't consider such ideas, of course, since it's verboten to acknowledge that biology can have anything to do with human behavior.

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Why yes, this blog is dedicated to pro-porn activism! With the belief that pornography falls under the auspices free speech and expression, and is legitimate entertainment for consenting adults, if made for and by consenting adults. One, as a consenting adult, has the right to make and view pornography as they choose.