2)NS is invalidated by the fact of speciation as NS only deals with traits already present and cant deal with the generation of new species COMPLETELY WRONG! new traits arise gradually through mutations! these traits eventually are what separates species!

3)genetics cannot account for the generation of new species-ie the cambrian explosion again, see punctuated equilibrium

The Bible's blind, the Torah's deaf, the Qur'an is muteIf you burned them all together you'd be close to the truthStill they're poring over Sanskrit under Ivy League moonsWhile shadows lengthen in the sun...

)NS is invalidated by the fact of speciation as NS only deals with traits already present and cant deal with the generation of new species COMPLETELY WRONG! new traits arise gradually through mutations! these traits eventually are what separates species!

“Natural selection is the process by which favorable heritable traits become more common in successive generations of a population of reproducing organisms, and unfavorable heritable traits become less common,”

It is claimed that Goulds intention with PE was to be compatible with NS. Goulds intentions are irrelevant. As the consequence of PE is that it invalidates NSNow NS is invalidated by the fact of speciation as NS only deals with triats already present and cant deal with the generation of new species A new species has completely new traits which were not in an antecedent so the antecedent species could not have passed them onNS is all about the transmission of already acquired traitsif evolution can take place by speciation i.e. a new species has new traits that are not present in the antecedent species thus NS is invalid as it cannot account for speciation

Consider another example: “vertebrates evolved from invertebrates.” But invertebrate by definition means “not a vertebrate.” Evolve means to change, and a changed thing is not what it once was, by definition. Thus the example can be reduced to absurd and useless repetition: something evolved from what it was not. The end result of the phrase is merely an assumption, not a demonstration. Evolution in this way assumes itself, cloaked in logical fallacy.”

gamila wrote:It is claimed that Goulds intention with PE was to be compatible with NS. Goulds intentions are irrelevant. As the consequence of PE is that it invalidates NS

Gould's intentions may indeed be irrelevant, but PE nevertheless only deals with the rate of evolutioary change, not its mechanism(s).

gamila wrote:Now NS is invalidated by the fact of speciation as NS only deals with triats already present and cant deal with the generation of new species

Speciation has always been seen as the basic step of evolution. One can evolve new traits without genetic mutation (eg quantitative traits); nevertheless most individuals have a few mutations anyway. Let me give you an example from the 1950s (if I recall correctly). It was shown that two populations of Drosophila could be selected to have either more or less bristle hairs than the range of bristle hairs in the original population. In other words, a completelty new trait, not seen in the original population.

gamila wrote:A new species has completely new traits which were not in an antecedent so the antecedent species could not have passed them on

Again wrong, for the reasons I gave above.

gamila wrote:NS is all about the transmission of already acquired traitsif evolution can take place by speciation i.e. a new species has new traits that are not present in the antecedent species thus NS is invalid as it cannot account for speciation

You keep referring to traits.. it is genetic material that is passed on (ie genes, promoters, etc) NOT traits.

gamila wrote:Consider another example: “vertebrates evolved from invertebrates.” But invertebrate by definition means “not a vertebrate.”

Semantics. This is equivalent to claiming that starfish must have evolved from stars since their name has "star" in it.

gamila wrote:Evolve means to change, and a changed thing is not what it once was, by definition. Thus the example can be reduced to absurd and useless repetition: something evolved from what it was not. The end result of the phrase is merely an assumption, not a demonstration. Evolution in this way assumes itself, cloaked in logical fallacy.”

A new species will have only a few differences from its parent species. They may even look be difficult to tell apart. Yes, "something evolved from what it was not," but it is something very similiar to what it was. You have yet to explain what is wrong with this. I think you need to study up on basic genetics.

"Although a phylum is often spoken of as if it were a hard and fast entity, no satisfactory definition of a phylum exists"

with out a definition of these terms then biologists are really talking nonsense for with out definitions to locate the things they talk about they are really not talking about anything at all If the biologist talks about say speciation or this species proving natural selection but cant tell you what a species is then he is talking meaningless nonsense

one notion of species ends in self contradiction

Many on here seem to think biologists know what species aresome argue thatspecies can interbreed with each otheryet this definition is shown to end in meaningless nonsensetake the Bactrian and dromardary camales

Wild camels have three more genes than domestic camels and so they have concluded that they are a completely different species.

It is the process by which heritable traits that increase an organism’s chances of survival and reproduction are favoured than less beneficial traits. Originally proposed by Charles Darwin, natural selection is the process that results in the evolution of organism.

and

”natural selection, a process that causes helpful traits (those that increase the chance of survival and reproduction) to become more common in a population and causes harmful traits to become more rare” (Ref: Futuyma, Douglas Evolution 2005

you contradict yourself

gamila wrote:A new species has completely new traits which were not in an antecedent so the antecedent species could not have passed them on

Again wrong, for the reasons I gave above.

then admit that something - ie with new traits- can evolve from something it is not ie it does not have the traits

Aristotelian logic as an epistemic condition of truth, the grand narrative of western philosophy: logic-centrism, the limitations of Aristotelian logic, the end of Aristotelian logic, logic/essence and language lead to the meaningless of all views

and you will see you are looking in the wrong placelife is a process species/essence are static concepts indicating a static worldyou must move from the static to processwhitehead ie he wrote principa mathematica with russelladvocated a process theory

gamila wrote:how can you talk about speciation when biologist dont even know what a species is

Species are not static enteties, as some of your quote-mining explains. Populations and species change over time. This hardly means they do not exist. The species is a static concept we use to represent a more fluid natural reality. If, however, you accept that species change over time, how can you claim evolution does not occur?

gamila wrote:you contradict yourself then admit that something - ie with new traits- can evolve from something it is not ie it does not have the traits

What I meant is that traits are not inherited as a unit. One does not either inherit a trait as manifested in a parent or not inherit a trait. Genes are what is inherited and it is they that dictate what traits an organism with manifest. Even without mutation, traits can be different in an offspring compared to its parents.

Let me ask you a question and see if you can answer it without a long quote mine. Is it possible for a parent with bloodtype A and a parent with bloodtype B to produce an offspring with bloodtype o without any mutation occurring in the offspring?

The species is a static concept we use to represent a more fluid natural reality

you can keep ignoring the fact but it want go away ie as colin leslie dean has shown you biologist dont know what species areor when they tell us it ends in self contradiction

What I meant is

but what you said was

Yes, "something evolved from what it was not,

hence

Thus the example can be reduced to absurd and useless repetition: something evolved from what it was not. The end result of the phrase is merely an assumption, not a demonstration. Evolution in this way assumes itself, cloaked in logical fallacy.”

One does not either inherit a trait as manifested in a parent or not inherit a trait. Genes are what is inherited and it is they that dictate what traits an organism with manifest.

It is the process by which heritable traits that increase an organism’s chances of survival and reproduction are favoured than less beneficial traits. Originally proposed by Charles Darwin, natural selection is the process that results in the evolution of organism.

Let me ask you a question and see if you can answer it without a long quote mine. Is it possible for a parent with bloodtype A and a parent with bloodtype B to produce an offspring with bloodtype o without any mutation occurring in the offspring?

fact is a colin leslie dean has shown

NS is

It is the process by which heritable traits that increase an organism’s chances of survival and reproduction are favoured than less beneficial traits. Originally proposed by Charles Darwin, natural selection is the process that results in the evolution of organism.

and again

note it talks about traits

natural selection, a process that causes helpful traits (those that increase the chance of survival and reproduction) to become more common in a population and causes harmful traits to become more rare” (Ref: Futuyma, Douglas Evolution 2005Bowler, Peter. Evolution: the hisotry of an idea)

thus

NS is all about the transmission of already acquired traitsif evolution can take place by speciation i.e. a new species has new traits that are not present in the antecedent species thus NS is invalid as it cannot account for speciationNote Gould talks about speciation ie the appearance of new species And below Gould talks about phylum BUT scientists cannot tell us what a species or phylum isConsider another example: “vertebrates evolved from invertebrates.” But invertebrate by definition means “not a vertebrate.” Evolve means to change, and a changed thing is not what it once was, by definition. Thus the example can be reduced to absurd and useless repetition: something evolved from what it was not. The end result of the phrase is merely an assumption, not a demonstration. Evolution in this way assumes itself, cloaked in logical fallacy.”

gamila wrote: you can keep ignoring the fact but it want go away ie as colin leslie dean has shown you biologist dont know what species areor when they tell us it ends in self contradiction

1. If you have a better definition for species please share it with us.

2. Are Tigers and Lions different? If so, how would you caetgorize them?

3. Traits are the result of gene expression. It is the genes that are inherited, not specific traits. You can quote mine all you like, it doesn't change that fact.

4. Please answer the question I asked. Can parents that exhibit the traits of blood type A and blood type B produce offspring that have the trait of blood type o? If so, then you are wrong about the inheritance of traits.

5. Please do not answer with quotes mines separated by "thus" or "hence." I will not bother to read them. Can you answer in your own words?

Gamila, how would you define species? I need to define it for the theory and was wondering how you would scientifically explain it.

i tell you what i will show you just what the problem is ie the belief in essences and thus a static logic

Gamila, I am seriously writing a theory that is presented at http://theoryofid.blogspot.com/ and have already spent many hours in other forums stuck in arguments over the definition of speciation. I am now trying to finish this before I become homeless over it!

Do you have a better definition? If no, then please tell me you do not have one.