I just looked up Dysentery, which bees often seem to ‘catch’ when fed fermenting honey (often uncapped stores which have absorbed water vapor from the air) and that seems to be caused by a bacteria in the fermenting honey.

So while the fermenting is caused by yeast there must also be bacteria in the honey or the air born moisture that gets into the honey; I'd hazard a guess the former myself.

So, while I may risk being labeled a pedant! I think while discussing honey contaminants we should distinguish between "honey that may exhibit antibacterial qualities due to its low water content" and "honey actually being antibacterial", simply because one may be true while the other might at best be misleading.

just think about all those little dirty bee feet walking all over that clean comb,...

Oh no, someone has to tell them to wear house shoes/slippers!

100 000 people die every day by hunger. 1 000 000 000 people (mainly kids) starve every day, although 1kg/2.2 pound grain is available per person per day in the World. And we talk about the "impurity" of honey by bees. Somehow I find this very strange and I feel like an alien in the midst of such a fear.

Food has become alien to people. If it is not wrapped in plastic, cooked or pasteurized to death, we actually "fear" our food. That is so strange - I hardly understand what's wrong with us.

My experience is, that live food, food that is alive, is far healthier than dead matter. Pasteurized or sterile honey is no honey in my eyes. It's dead and lifeless. All the good effects honey has on human health come from micro-organisms in the honey. These are beneficial micro-organisms, added by the bees to make a healthy food for themselves in winter. The bees ripen the honey, they are the honeymaker. If they choose to put the honey into former brood cells, well they know it better than us. How come that we dare to tell the bees how to make honey? That's strange.

I don't really care for myself what the regulations are for my food. In my eyes those hygienic regulations are set up to prevent small producers, even the beekeepers, from producing. Big companies can fullfill all the regulations, small producers can't. So small producer die off, big companies gain even more power.

All the laws and such don't protect the consumer as can be found with pesticides. Have a look at the findings of pesticides in supermarket foods in Germany:

I suppose that findings are similiar in your country. So laws and regulations serve only big companies needs and kill small producing farms, they don't meet the small producer's nor the consumer's needs.

I give a bee poo on those regulations and demand my right to choose to eat what I want and what is beneficial to my health. I demand the right to produce my food myself, which I think is a basic human right.

In consequence, if laws and regulations prevent to sell my natural produced honey, I'd simply stop it immediately. The consumer have the might to make a change, not me. So if consumer miss my natural produced and tasty honey, they start to yell and mourn. That's what is needed to make a change on stupid laws and regulations that try to kill of small producers.

You might think "OK, Bernhard is theoretical and has some strange thoughts", but go and watch yourself what is going on out there. Small farms close. Hobbyist farmers give up. A lot of people give up keeping pigs, poultry, cows and other animals. So many regulations are put upon them until they give up. More and more laws by the EU are comitted. All in the name of the fear of illnesses and pests. Micro-organism-phobia.

It all serves the gain of power by big companies. Big chemical companies do earn by the production of what they call "food", they earn by selling pesticides, selling fertilizer, they earn by selling medicals when people get ill by such a low quality food. cr@p* food.

The World agrar report says, that local and small farms are essential to prevent a future hunger catastrophe. Agricultural poltics have to be radically changed, to save the whole World from hunger. Pesticide use and GMOs are not the answer and "business as usual" is not an option.

My conclusion is, that I give a bee poo on all the hygienic fear and live how I think is healthy. That is eating fresh organic produced food including honey, fresh from the comb. No straining, no pasteurizing, nothing. To me and others that is beautiful and a source of joy. Pour bugger I say, people squeezing that dead liquid out of plastic bottles what they call "honey".

My conclusion is, that I give a bee poo on all the hygienic fear and live how I think is healthy. That is eating fresh organic produced food including honey, fresh from the comb. No straining, no pasteurizing, nothing. To me and others that is beautiful and a source of joy. Pour bugger I say, people squeezing that dead liquid out of plastic bottles what they call "honey".

Long live the honey!

Bravo Bernhard - couldn't agree more!

That list of pesticide residues gives the lie to Bayer's claim that neonicotinoids biodegrade before we are exposed to them. I haven't had time to count the occurrencies or do the calculations, but there are clearly many examples there of Imidacloprid being present in fruit and vegetables in amounts potentially lethal to bees - and quite possibly toxic to us.

If there is a biochemist out there with patience and time, it would be really useful to have a summary of the nastier examples in that paper.

Last edited by biobee on Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total

All the good effects honey has on human health come from micro-organisms in the honey. These are beneficial micro-organisms, added by the bees to make a healthy food for themselves in winter.

The bees ripen the honey, they are the honeymaker.

Hi Bernhard

Can you tell us the names of some of these " beneficial micro-organisms, added by the bees..... "?

I understand that honey has a very complex and varied chemical composition, that the bees reduce the water content of nectar and change the nature of some of it's sugars, that things such as Nosema and foulbroods are passed into honey by the bees, but that they add beneficial micro-organisms to honey which are important to their winter feed is new to me.

Food has become alien to people. If it is not wrapped in plastic, cooked or pasteurized to death, we actually "fear" our food. That is so strange - I hardly understand what's wrong with us.

All the laws and such don't protect the consumer as can be found with pesticides. Have a look at the findings of pesticides in supermarket foods in Germany:

I give a bee poo on those regulations and demand my right to choose to eat what I want and what is beneficial to my health. I demand the right to produce my food myself, which I think is a basic human right.

How good to hear the voice of sanity. Well said Bernhard!_________________Gareth

Food has become alien to people. If it is not wrapped in plastic, cooked or pasteurized to death, we actually "fear" our food. That is so strange - I hardly understand what's wrong with us.

All the laws and such don't protect the consumer as can be found with pesticides. Have a look at the findings of pesticides in supermarket foods in Germany:

I give a bee poo on those regulations and demand my right to choose to eat what I want and what is beneficial to my health. I demand the right to produce my food myself, which I think is a basic human right.

How good to hear the voice of sanity. Well said Bernhard!

While I'd agree food standards regulations do constantly need revision, and that pesticide levels have been overlooked to date largely due to the lobbying power of farmers (recent outcry of the NFU in the UK regarding proposed bans on pesticides by the EU) you cannot surely all want to do away with "the evils of food standard regulations"?

It may well please some ears to hear a bashing doled out to "the authorities" but have you forgotten the chalk and ash put into foods in Victorian times by shop keepers or the melamine put into babies milk in China recently. Food premises are closed down daily by councils hygiene inspectors, would you have them all sacked as red tape corporate puppets as well?

I for one have nothing against good old wholesome food, I grow much of my own and when we do buy food in supermarkets or local markets we try to buy in season and local produce, but please, lets ask for food standards to rise rather than doing away with all food regulations.

...lets ask for food standards to rise rather than doing away with all food regulations....

Do away all standards and regulations. All we need is TRUST. I can only trust people I know. So the consequence is to buy stuff from people I know, or buy stuff from people I don't know but who's known by people I trust or ... buy and risk that you get cr@p*.

Any standard or regulation will protect you in any way. No way. There is only a policy of trust you can trust. Nothing else. This is the future. See the World agriculture report above.

I read about the intestine micro-organisms in a book by Karl von Frisch and Martin Lindauer, who are German bee researcher, well-known in Germany. I found a nice paper for your reading about micro-organisms in honey, which includes information about bee intestine micro-organisms.

An association of Bacillus spp. with bees including honey bees, stingless bees, and solitary bees from tropical and temperate zones appears to have evolved in which female bees inoculate food sources with these bacteria whose chemical products contribute to the elaboration and/or protection from spoilage of food that is stored in the nest. This association is ancient based on results from stingless bees preserved in amber for 25-40 million years. It is concluded that bees, their products, and their associated microorganisms are potential sources of bioactive products including antimicrobial compounds.

...lets ask for food standards to rise rather than doing away with all food regulations....

Do away all standards and regulations. All we need is TRUST. I can only trust people I know. So the consequence is to buy stuff from people I know, or buy stuff from people I don't know but who's known by people I trust or ... buy and risk that you get cr@p*.

Any standard or regulation will protect you in any way. No way. There is only a policy of trust you can trust. Nothing else. This is the future. See the World agriculture report above.

Surely I cannot be alone in thinking this is utopian nonsense?

As far as your trusting people, without regulation or standard of any kind Bernhard, will your natural progression along this line of thought be to ban all standards and regulations in modern life, after all if they are endemically flawed in regard to food production they must similarly be flawed in other aspects of modern life?

So, no standards should be applied to the mechanic that fixes your car because he's your cousin and he'd not knowingly leave it unsafe after it's service. Doctors need not attain any standard before they operate on you, and an abattoir need never be inspected for hygiene; oh I forgot, we are all going to raise our own livestock and slaughter it in the kitchen before bartering the meat for the repair of the car with cousin Joe.

Sorry, but I want my GP to have qualified before he operates on me, my mechanic to have been trained so the ambulance does not break down, and my solicitor to have passed a bar exam before he sues the cowboy who poisoned me by supplying the meat Joe cooked us for dinner last week.

An association of Bacillus spp. with bees including honey bees, stingless bees, and solitary bees from tropical and temperate zones appears to have evolved in which female bees inoculate food sources with these bacteria whose chemical products contribute to the elaboration and/or protection from spoilage of food that is stored in the nest. This association is ancient based on results from stingless bees preserved in amber for 25-40 million years. It is concluded that bees, their products, and their associated microorganisms are potential sources of bioactive products including antimicrobial compounds.

Honeybees are the only insects that make a good enough wax to be able to ripen nectar into honey and store it so it does not spoil, some of these other insects referred to have had to find other ways to preserve their stored food. Plus, I'm no biochemist, but my objection was to honey being called antibacterial, this quote says "that bees, their products, and their associated microorganisms are potential sources of bioactive products including antimicrobial compounds." as well as saying it is a bacteria that bees appear to add to their food stores. I looked up micro-organisms to discover that my understanding that they are complex microscopic plants or animals was wrong and that they in fact include bacteria and fungus as well, so maybe my original request was somewhat misplaced.

That said, thanks for the reference Bernhard, I will have to go have a closer look at this work.

Everyone has an opinion - this excellent forum does all it can to encourage and air those opinions, whatever they are, unlike others that seek to surpress 'alternative' viewpoints.

That said, tireless repetition and squabling is not really helpful to anyone. By all means add to the debate if there is further information but PLEASE don't keep going over old ground once you've made your opinions quite clear. Not everyone is going to agree with everything - we are beekeepers after all .

Sorry, but I want my GP to have qualified before he operates on me, my mechanic to have been trained so the ambulance does not break down, and my solicitor to have passed a bar exam before he sues the cowboy who poisoned me by supplying the meat Joe cooked us for dinner last week.

Hi Peter,

I don't want to crush your view of the World today, but there is lot of change and challenge right now happening.

The biggest problem in my eyes is the way we use energy, especially oil. Please watch the videoArithmetic, Population & Energy by Dr. Albert A Bartlett. Watch it, it is well worth it. Oil, gas and all - we're running out quickly.

We're running out of energy quickly, I think in the next couple of years. The next thing is the "financial crisis" which is a man-made crisis or call it modern robbery. That one plus the energy hit, plus an additional climatic crisis will change the everyday life of all of us.

There won't be cars or "green" alternatives for cars - not for everyone. Not for us. There is no alternative for our energy consumption but to reduce. Power Down! That's what's needed. Read the book Power Down by Richard Heinberg. All the regulations and laws are made to ensure some people the ongoing of their lifestyle on the cost of ours. That's what's happening.

I don't say all laws and regulations are bad. I'm not an anarchist. I say there are so many laws that are dead stupid and made to rob us our property and self-sufficiency. Why's that? Well, think of it being stupid, but some people think, there is not too little energy resources but too many people in the World. Yes, that's mad. Don't throw away that thought of mine. Think of it and observe what's happening around you. Better keep an eye on people or companies who stretch out their hand to help you. You might sell your soul to them.

Anyway, it doesn't harm anyone to become as self-sufficient as possible when it comes to food and water. It doesn't harm to think about and practically try ways to live without electricity, without oil, without town water. It doesn't harm to think about weather extremes, so plan for the cold but for the heat as well.

You might find this statement strange, but don't dismiss it. Just keep it in mind while watching and observing carefully, what's going on. That is a honest advice.

We speak the same language!
I'd suggest anyone with the slightest doubts watches this -
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RdOk521m9WA - (the potted version)
and the full version is (in 8 parts) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY
- it clearly sets out, using simple arithmetic WHY we have to take "population growth" very seriously indeed - it isn't surmise, or guesstimation, it's cold, hard arithmetical fact.........
These times will be looked back upon as "the profligate times" by any survivors - at the risk of sounding like some loony fringe prophet, we have several horsemen of the apocalypse hurtling towards us - overpopulation, global warming, dying seas, oil running out, along with a few minor annoyances like the breakdown of the global economy, and water shortages..... Life is going to be VERY different, very soon - as to precisely how, I haven't a clue, but there are a few things that look fairly certain, none of which fill me with glee!
I doubt the structure that will provide a food inspectorate will weather even the first few storms - common sense and judicious use of one's nose will probably have to suffice (and Granny's voice muttering "bit of clean dirt never hurt anybody") _________________http://farmco.co.uk
Sussex Natural Beekeepers' Forum

Oh, I do so wish I hadn't started this thread! It's getting so depressing, and on top of this poor old Sue Jakeman wants me to renew my subscription to BeeCraft, so I had to e-mail and tell her no, and I'm intending to leave BBKA as well. I bet I'm not the only one, by a mile.

I agree whole heartedly with the doom merchants (sorry realists) in that pollution and the solid fuel crisis do pose challenges that are going to affect all of us; and in particular I believe, that the financial constraints such will place upon commercial beekeepers in the US will drive fundamental changes towards more natural beekeeping methods, which can possibly be helped or hindered by the progress made in places such as this meanwhile. But I don't see beyond that, how turning the debate to focus on these issues here and now answers questions about the best way to extract honey from Warre hives, or quality issues over honey extracted from brood comb.

TRUST will not convince anyone other than your friends or the gullible; and history (including the current global financial crisis) tells us what deregulation will do, even to food standards. I'd of hoped that there would have been more interest in answering one of the key objections I've most often heard raised against Warre hives and natural beekeeping; even if it's just in discussing how to minimize any perception of contamination in honey (and I don’t mean brushing the subject under the carpet)

TRUST will not convince anyone other than your friends or the gullible; and history (including the current global financial crisis) tells us what deregulation will do..

Peter

The reason the financial system is in a mess is LACK of trust. The banks don't trust each other, nobody trusts the banks and the the banks don't trust the people they SHOULD be lending to. The banks lost the plot when they started lending to anybody who asked (and many who didn't) and then repackaged the garbage and sold it on. Banking is about RELATIONSHIPS, not regulation. And so is the whole functioning of any human society. There is plenty of research that shows that the MORE you regulate the LESS people trust. Excessive bureaucracy in terms of form filling and box ticking destroys trust and is, ultimately, counterproductive.

Like it or not, that's the way the world is.

Small scale, local food production uses trust as a key factor to differentiate itself from big agribusiness. You can look the producer in the eye (and his bees too if you wish).

I have people all around the village asking me when I might have some honey for them. They then mention that they want the local stuff with the local pollen it it. And with the pollen will come other things. Why do I get asked for this: because people are realising that they NEED to take in the local microflora to keep themselves healthy.

There is research that shows that country born people who grow up in contact with things like cow manure suffer substantially fewer allergies/asthma etc in later life, even when they move to big cities. To do, it seems, with desensitisation of the immune system.

I appreciate that this might not be YOUR world view and I, for one, am happy to agree to differ.

Now, I really must stop posting to this thread as I have other things in life to do _________________Gareth

I'd of hoped that there would have been more interest in answering one of the key objections I've most often heard raised against Warre hives and natural beekeeping; even if it's just in discussing how to minimize any perception of contamination in honey (and I don’t mean brushing the subject under the carpet)

Peter,

There has been considerable interest in answering your 'objections' - probably more than on any other recent thread - and nobody can be accused of 'brushing it under the carpet'. People have been bending over backwards to answer you - in detail and even by calling in other expert opinion. And yet, you never seem satisfied.

If the sum total of the expertise here does not constitute a response to your concerns, then please spend the money and get some detailed analyses done of comb honey and report back here with actual facts that we can study. Constantly carping on about what 'may' be a problem, but has never been shown to be so, is not helpful to anyone.

The reason the financial system is in a mess is LACK of trust. The banks don't trust each other, nobody trusts the banks and the the banks don't trust the people they SHOULD be lending to. The banks lost the plot when they started lending to anybody who asked (and many who didn't) and then repackaged the garbage and sold it on. Banking is about RELATIONSHIPS, not regulation.

I'm surprised that in your wide experience of giving talks to both beekeepers and non beekeepers you've not recognized and can acknowledge that two of the accusations often leveled at TBH and Warre’s is that they respectively "are not for serious beeks as they will never, by design, promote strong colonies that will produce good crops of honey" and the contaminated honey hot potato (my concern is more over the latter, the former is not a particular gripe of mine so please don't obsess over the "good crop" aspect)

Calling in Randy Oliver is great, if he has experience of the specific topic; I don't think my take on his reply was unreasonable though, and I've followed David Heaf’s board almost since it's inception, where this debate has also yet to be concluded. I'm all for experimentation meanwhile, but as I'd have thought you know getting lab tests done takes time and vast amounts of money to organize, so it's a bit disingenuous of you to counter with that suggestion, IMHO at least!

However, it is your board, and seeing how having labeled me as a pedant you've now moved on to think of my contribution as "carping on", you can get your way and I will not post on this thread again. Which is a shame, because if we could get past hollow denials that quality is an issue (at least in some quarters) we could have moved on to looking at minimizing any possible contamination by employing differing extraction methods; but "in my world" yes, it seems the issue is sadly being avoided and to some extent sidelined when avoidance has been unsuccessful.

Peter
Cambridge UK

P.S. While I've no intention now of posting to this thread again I cannot say I won’t reply to further posts.

Phil
it seems the issue is sadly being avoided and to some extent sidelined when avoidance has been unsuccessful.

Nobody is avoiding anything - on the contrary, the subject has been thrashed to within an inch of its life and people have dropped out because the conversation was going nowhere and they were fed up having to repeat themselves in the face of pointless and tedious dissection of their arguments.

The weight of anecdotal evidence says that nobody appears to have been made ill by consuming honey extracted from comb that was previously used for brood, but if someone can produce evidence to the contrary, then we will listen.

All we have established is that there may or may not be an issue here, and until someone does the actual tests and produces some hard evidence one way or the other, it is a matter of opinion and conjecture.

Further contributions to this thread are welcome PROVIDED THEY INTRODUCE HARD EVIDENCE EITHER WAY! Otherwise, please resist the urge to have the last word.

Surely in a conventional system the supers & the wax they contain are used over & over again.
This is just as much (if not more) at risk of contamination as comb from a TBH or Warre where the comb is being renewed every other year or so, even if it has been used for brood.
I don't see the argument myself & think there are greater & more important things we should be concentrating our energies on.
One of the reasons we have so many problems with food allergies IMO is that the vast amount of food sold now is sterile & over processed.
In Skep keeping days the comb was eaten brood et al & the eater probably benefited from the extra protein, vitamins & minerals it contained even if the bees didn't?
& the extra little bits that nowadays would be processed out added to the immune system which in modern man & woman is becoming seriously compromised._________________Don't worry
Bee happy.
Member of Cornwall Natural Beekeepers
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Natural_Beekeeping/index.php?showforum=4http://www.fotothing.com/Tavascarow

Different subject altogether, but I went to a lecture last Saturday, by Prof. Keith Delaplane from Georgia. They did some tests by building new hives, shaking in bees that had not been dosed with antibiotics or chemicals, and tested the new wax they produced. The new wax contained very detectable levels of several substances used widely in the States on bees. So is it in the air, or put onto flowers by treated bees? All a big mystery!

Why are you attacking me for reporting what your fellow countryman stated as fact-based research? The same fact was repeated last Saturday in Devon, with Phil present in the hall.

And what is political about me asking about possible faecal contamination of honey from a Warre hive? I honestly believed that this forum was a place I could ask straightforward questions so that I could get answers from those with more experience. I've been attacked by fellow forum members before, but never by a moderator in such a bizzare manner.

John - your question was perfectly valid and you were right to post it. This is an issue that has not yet been completely resolved and is an open question until we have hard evidence one way or the other.

What we don't need is to get into a war of opinions over this - some believe one thing and some another - and nobody is entitled to say 'you're wrong' unless they can back it up with FACTS - and that means analysis and hard data.

Yes I am a moderator; my problems about politics had nothing to do with your posts. My concern is with statements posted that undermine any of the advantages of the TBH or natural/sustainable beekeeping. The "attack was not on you it was on the comment about the contaminates in the wax. This statementIMO especially coming from a respected scientist is exactly that kind of comment that can do damage to the progress we have made! With that said as a moderator it is my job to identify such comments and then find the science that either proves or disputes the statement. You just have to drop the comment if you don’t post any link or supporting evidence burden of proof falls in my lap. Yes, I am a moderator and I take the job seriously as sustainable beekeeping is my passion! Sorry if you felt attacked that was not the intention. I am actually glad to have you here and hope you continue on with us, In the future I will make my intentions clearer.

This statementIMO especially coming from a respected scientist is exactly that kind of comment that can do damage to the progress we have made! With that said as a moderator it is my job to identify such comments and then find the science that either proves or disputes the statement.

So, if proven, foundation still remains a bad idea because of the uniforminty of it's cell size, it just can no longer be claimed that "foundation is pesticide tainted whereas natural comb is not"?

It means that we KNOW foundation is tainted, and, due to the contamination of the environment by agricultural and other chemicals, bees may bring some of these chemicals into the hive that may find their way into the wax.

Please don't try to provoke a fight over this level of detail - we have bigger fish to fry.

Conserving wild bees

Research suggests that bumble bee boxes have a very low success rate in actually attracting bees into them. We find that if you create an environment where first of all you can attract mice inside, such as a pile of stones, a drystone wall, paving slabs with intentionally made cavities underneath, this will increase the success rate.

Most bumble bee species need a dry space about the size a football, with a narrow entrance tunnel approximately 2cm in diameter and 20 cm long. Most species nest underground along the base of a linear feature such as a hedge or wall. Sites need to be sheltered and out of direct sunlight.