Never mind.
It ceases to be worth it.
I've learned a valuable lesson this week, thank you to everyone here and on BT. I've learned that people prefer not be be told something that is against their intellectual tendencies.
I've learned that you can't bring a message to someone that they don't want to hear, and continuing to argue about it gets you nowhere.
There are at least two dozen studies about this on the internet, I chose one closest to our situation out of the top five I read. The whole beginning of this thread was the premise that there were fewer women in bonsai than men. That is a truth, sorry. Maybe it's getting better, but it's obvious I hit a sore spot with my opinion and minimal research here.
So, see you later.
Joanie

Joanie,
I am not quite understanding your response to my post. I was not argumentative nor personal about it but was rather bringing up another possible point: whether age has anything to do with women in bonsai. Why then the reaction?
I am sorry, Joanie, if what I added to this thread has somehow offended you. I am utterly perplexed.
On the other hand, I find your following comments ?I've learned that people prefer not be told something that is against their intellectual tendencies. I've learned that you can't bring a message to someone that they don't want to hear, and continuing to argue about it gets you nowhere.? to be a personal and demeaning attack on anyone seeming to argue your points.
Let?s go back and define the word ?debate?: To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
Heck, this is a ?discussion? forum, so let?s define ?discuss? as well: to examine or consider a subject in speech or writing; syn. debate.
Jennifer

Without acknowledging a conclusion to the debate, I must still say I find it ironic that we have women (mostly) arguing with each other over a thread titled "Gentlemen's Club". The debate is civil and polite, but all parties are sticking to their guns. Maybe that is the middle ground that both genders should be trying to tread.
John

I've learned that people prefer not be be told something that is against their intellectual tendencies.I've learned that you can't bring a message to someone that they don't want to hear, and continuing to argue about it gets you nowhere.

I personally do not like to have my beliefs challenged, no one does, but once the facts have been set loose to wander in my mind, I usually walk away with a different world view. I am often grateful for this and I am always better for it.
Debate serves to either a) confirm my beliefs, or b) disprove the validity of them, either way I come out ahead, no matter how I may personally feel about it.
You are correct, arguing will lead nowhere, however, polite, intellectual, factual debate will. Personally, although I haven't contributed much to this particular debate, I have enjoyed the many contributions here and I have seen good old fashioned civil debate work as it should, for that I am grateful.

To wander off on the little side-thread about one's views being changed,
I am proud to say that I LOVE when someone does that to me. It creates in me a sense of excitement that I've learned something. It's almost like a revelation and I go: "Wow, how could I not see this for all this time?"
So, the general assumption that people don't like they views changed doesn't apply to me at all. It happened to me many times during my learning curve in bonsai, and I am eternally thankful for those who did it to me. I would have been worried if it didn't happen. That would have meant that I wasn't making any progress in my learning.

Attila ? indeed it seems less to be a man/woman problem but rather the consequence of two absolutely different motivations.
Some do something to have a niche. They kind of retire into a specific occupation and close the door behind them. Others pick up an occupation and want to integrate it into their life. Maybe they even try to integrate others into this (now personalized) occupation and/or integrate the occupation into their lifes and so on. The first look for purity, reduce to the max, the second want diversity and widened horizons.
I think many of our discussions here ? is this art or not, is this good or not, can one do that or not ? base on THIS 'little difference'?
P.S. My wife has a very simple answer on the question why she does care for my bonsai (and I'd stop if she wouldn't) but not for the bonsai world: 'Because of the fights'.

Hey everyone,
I enjoyed reading all your posts and I l i k e
bonsai,skat,chess,good food,forums,
wiring,carving,pruning,laughing,bordeaux,
quantumtheorie,cascades,japan,europe,political
correctness,liquorice,spaetzle,sharpening my own
tools,critiques,logic,art,winning,biogold,handwatering,
kimura,traditional bonsai,Walter Pall,breaking the rules,
Mount Everest,Italy,deadwood,updates,Anderson Cooper,
Nikola Tesla,diegrinder with variable speed,conifers,
Florida,whole fish on the grill,raffia,spherical knobcutter,
my kiridashi knife,flexibility,success,Ginkgo Awards,
saki,sashimi,Nobu,champagne,computer,results,
grouper,stainless steel tools,perfume,good teachers,
yamadori,Cheng Kung Cheng,shimpaku,extremes,
humor,tolerance and integrity.
What I don't like is gravity.
But most of all I like being a woman in a "gentlemen's club".
Best regards,
Dorothy Schmitz,Florida

I don't think you can look at men and women and say there's a typical set of differences between their approach to bonsai. I would agree with Attila's comment about the hard work of bonsai: large trees are heavy and big collections take a lot of maintenance! Even though I'm strong and fit, I stick with trees under 30", so I can manage them in the garden. I can't always count on helping hands when I work on a tree. And shohin take more attention than I can offer, given my schedule and the type of garden I have.
Finding a competent teacher or mentor is the bigger issue in my experience, especially someone who will respect the student's interests and motivations in bonsai. In the 7 years I have been involved with bonsai, I can count on half a hand the times a workshop instructor or prospective mentor has asked me "what do you want to accomplish with this tree?" and "what appeals to you about bonsai?" Usually, the instructor comes around, takes a look, and tells you what to do -- technical instruction is important and it's not the only thing that's important. Especially when a student is on the cusp of taking their bonsai to the next level.
My own progression with bonsai has been formed by two forces: my personal aesthetics and my skills and knowledge. As my knowledge and skills have matured, my interest has grown in working with more species (flowers and fruit, pines) and trying deadwood. Developing an 'eye' and a sense of how to develop a good design has taken time and personal attention, and an appreciation for planning. I now ask myself on a regular basis, "what can I do to learn and mature as a bonsai artist?" The answer is different now, than it would have been when I started. And I suspect that's true for each of us, regardless of gender.

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