500 words a day on whatever I want

Should George Zimmerman be arrested?

Should George Zimmerman be arrested for killing Trayvon Martin? If you do not know about the case you can read my posts on the matter here and here or google “Trayvon Martin”.

Disclaimer: I know this poll is utterly unscientific – it takes place on a blog where the blogger has taken sides (my masthead says “Arrest Zimmerman”!) and my readership is not a random sample of anything, not even with the help of Poll Daddy. I also know people can lie but in my experience most people are more truthful when they are anonymous.

Enjoy! And feel free to opine in the comment section after the poll – but please, no racial slurs or calls for violence. I delete those.

Self defense should be proportional. Somebody slaps you, you kill him…?The exception in Florida not to persecue manslaughter cases when somebody claims self defense is just simply retarded. If you can flee a hostile situation but don’t and you kill somebody, you’re just as guilty as when you commit the act of manslaughter under other conditions

Every case of manslaughter should become a court of law to prove to a judge/jury that the conditions of self defense were justifiable. So even though the law is retarded the suspect should still plea for his case even if police reports say otherwise. A death isn’t something to be taken lightly just like a traffic violation.

I just see the size/age difference and the fact that George Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin when he was told not to. I don’t see how anything ever would have happened if Zimmerman had not racially targeted Martin in the first place. No doubt in my mind ZImmerman belongs in Jail.

17-19 year old males are probably the most aggressive and confrontational human demographic. I’m not suggesting that Martin was like this at all, as I didn’t know him personally and neither did you, but one shouldn’t assume a young man of that age is a meek and tender flower.

In other Florida news, here’s a “child” (16 years old at the time) on currently on trial for murdering a police officer:

The City of Sanford’s statement that it is prohibited from arresting Zimmerman is wrong. The “stand your ground” statute does not prohibit an arrest where the shooter invokes self defense. Rather, the statute is to be used by the defendant as a defense after he is charged with homicide. In other words, ordinary homicide laws apply to this or any other shooting; the “stand your ground” statute is an overlay that would be invoked by the defendant after being arrested and charged.

In fact, as we know from the Trevor Dooley case, where the shooter is black he will be arrested and charged.

Incidentally, I agree with commenters who resist using “child” to describe Trayvon. The media generally glosses over the fact that Trayvon was a high school football player, slim but tough and fit, and taller than Zimmerman, who is short and obese (and, by the sound of his voice, somewhat of a nebbish). The tidbits of information from the investigation suggest that Trayvon did open a can of whupass on Zimmerman.

Assuming this is true, I don’t know why the MSM seems intent on trying to gloss over this or sweep it under the rug. That is exactly what I teach my children to do in the same circumstances. Any thinking parent would teach their children the same.

Almost 100% of the time, when a random strange adult physically accosts a child or teenager, he (it’s almost always a man) means to commit sexual assault and murder. Once he gets you into a vehicle or private location, it’s all over. Your only chance, your last chance, is to fight like a wildcat the moment he lays hands on you.

The male brain isn’t fully developed till the age of 25. The prefrontal cortex which inhibits impulses isn’t fully grown till that age. To “infantalize” people between the age of 17 and 19 isn’t dishonest, it’s just a biological fact.

I think he should be arrested, but I don’t know how to vote. I’m white and non-American, but I don’t know what the last options (yes/no and none of the above) are for. Didn’t you cover all the groups with other options?

@Mira I don’t want to speak for abagond, but I think you should vote (Yes, and I am not American) choice #9. I guess he thinks race outside of the country on this issue isn’t as important and I happen to agree with him there.

Yes I did. I find it pretty interesting that there are votes there, even a pro-Zimmerman one last I checked. I am assuming those are Americans who do not want to be categorized by race, like our dear Don, the Race-Doesn’t-Matter Americans.

Zimmerman should have been arrested when they cuffed him in the first place. If he had been injured you can be sure we’d be seeing that but the blood reported on his nose was probably Trayon’s from the blast of the gun. I feel that the police didn’t arrest Zimmerman cuz they know him, it is not credible to say that he was the neighborhood watch captain, but then claim out of the side of your mouth that he wasn’t “registered”. If the police met with the home association, including the woman who trains neighborhood watch, if there was a “neigborhood watch” sign in front of the complex, then he was acting as a representative of the complex and associate of the police, and they just don’t want to be responsible for their failure to stop Zimmerman before this happened. All those complaints fell on deaf ears until this happened and they still won’t take responsibility.

I see you are showing you usual “I’m too smart to be racist sitting on the fence” side. Notice no opinion on the very topic of this post?

This alone shows up your total non-impartiality on this issue. So you can come down from that fence and pick up your white robe you dropped!

Secondly…Lets contrast the two cases you site. You are forever preaching about double standards and bias yet in both cases of Black suspects. Both have gone through the arrest and trail process…and even sentenced

But Zimmerman remains free and uncharged???

Your examples show how stark and one sided the issue of racial justice is for Black and white suspects. But still you believe remain undecided about how Zimmerman should be treated?

Your attitude is callous and indifferent to the worth of Black life and that is putting it mildly!!!

Shockingly, the media has covered up some key information in making Trayvon Martin the latest black martyr. From an Examiner.com article citing eyewitness reports and some pertinent background on the “unarmed black teenager shot to death by a white multiracial Hispanic neighborhood watch captain”:

All the way back on February 27th, the local Orlando Fox station interviewed the witness who dialed 911.

1. The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.

2. The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.

3. Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness.

4. Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin’s father, who tells police that the voice screaming is not the voice of his son.

The neighborhood this took place in has seen a lot of crime. Would you be surprised to learn that there were eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting just in the past year? In fact, the local homeowners’ association reports that George Zimmerman actually caught one thief and aided in the apprehension of other criminals.

As with all black teenage victims, the media mendaciously refers to Trayvon as an “honor roll student”:

In fact, he was under a five day suspension when the shooting took place. That is why he was staying at a house so far from his school on a school night. A laywer for Trayvon’s family has blocked access to his school records. However, you have to do something pretty bad to get suspended for five days.

And note that all the news articles contain a picture of a smiling, prepubescent 13 year-old Trayvon, not a fully grown 17 year-old, 6’2” football player:

The media also fills their articles with outdated baby-faced pictures of Trayvon. Very few include that he was a towering 6’2” football player.

Why the hell has the media almost always failed to mention this????

Zimmerman might have said something to Trayvon that he thought was challenging him and dissing him as young black males are prone to do including to actual cops, and started beating on him. Don’t know but it’s not implausible.

Florida has a “stand your ground law”. Under that law you’re allowed to use force including with a firearm if you reasonably believe that your life is in danger or you’re about to suffer a physically violent felony.

“This is a total cop-out !!! And in reality not that far removed from how Randy would probably respond!

Obama does not deserve the credit most Black people would apparently give him”

I agree, this seems more like an opportunity that just happened to fall in his lap.

We’ll see how far he takes it though, he might be sincere.

@vanishingpoint

“Zimmerman should have been arrested when they cuffed him in the first place.”

Damn right he should have, they should have held him until he was proven guilty/innocent not just release him. That was one hell of a major blunder, something that should shame the department for years to come.

Yes, he should have been arrested back in late February, when the shooting took place. Based on the anecdotal evidence i’ve heard about from the 911 tapes, he’s guilty as sin. I don’t know how any rational person can say otherwise. My biggest concern is that Zimmerman will walk because the so-called Sanford PD botched the crime scene evidence on purpose in a major way. Both of Zimmerman’s parents have worked in the court system in the past in the state of Virginia. The special treatment by police makes sense now, CYA! As to the race of Zimmerman, he’s a whiteman…Point Blank! Spanish folk are trying to colorize him, by using his so-called black relatives as cover for his racial bias…Bull****! Abagond, you know how i feel about the latino/hispanic identity insanity. White spaniards and spanish blacks who try to excuse the killing of Treyvon Martin by saying that Zimmerman is not really a racist because he’s a so-called hispanic should think twice about doing that. They’re pouring gasoline on the fire if they do that. Racism in spanish culture is just as bad, so, i don’t wanna see and hear them making fools of themselves with their colorblind racism…Bottomline!!!

I guess I don’t see this from a racial angle, first and foremost. I mean, Zimmerman did kill Trayvon, didn’t he? I think I’m not familiar with the “self-defense = you go free” option. I don’t think it exists in my country. Well, I guess it does, but for most of these cases you do go to jail. I think. Not sure.

I’m utterly unfamiliar with the whole “general population has a gun” thing. I might be stereotyping, but I do think the gun policy in America is… well, a bit too open.

That being said, I’m pissed off at the police here, because I’m sure they’ve released him because the victim was black. Not sure how Zimmerman’s race fits into this.

@Doug:In fact, he was under a five day suspension when the shooting took place. That is why he was staying at a house so far from his school on a school night. A laywer for Trayvon’s family has blocked access to his school records. However, you have to do something pretty bad to get suspended for five days.
____
My daughter,about the same age as Trayvon, got detention for being 30seconds late walking into the Lunchroom, the bell was ringing as she walked in. You don’t have to “do something pretty bad”, that is just your imagination in high gear. I talked to the guidance counselor to make sure this wasn’t on her permanent records and they couldn’t answer me yes or no. But you seem intent on blaming the victim.

I see you are showing you usual “I’m too smart to be racist sitting on the fence” side. Notice no opinion on the very topic of this post?

I’ve offered no opinion because I lack sufficient facts to form one. The evidence which has been released to the public so far does not shed light on how the physical altercation between Zimmerman and Martin was initiated.

Kwamla:

Secondly…Lets contrast the two cases you site. You are forever preaching about double standards and bias yet in both cases of Black suspects. Both have gone through the arrest and trail process…and even sentenced

The cases I cited were solely meant to refute sam’s contention that a 17+ year old male is a “child” who a priori is a timid, helpless person who must always be judged to be the victim in any physical altercation with an adult.

Kwamla:

Your attitude is callous and indifferent to the worth of Black life and that is putting it mildly!!!

The relative worth of a “[insert ethnicity] life” should play no role in determining legal responsibility. So yes, I am completely indifferent to it, as should you be for the purposes of assigning guilt.

The family has taken steps to keep the media from looking at Trayvon’s school records.

The important thing though is the eyewitness’s report that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman who was lying on the ground, bloodied, as Trayvon was continuing to beat him up, with Zimmerman yelling for him. When none came he shot Trayvon, which Florida law permits under such circumstances.

If there wasn’t an eyewitness who said that Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned to the ground beating him up before he shot Trayvon, which the vast majority of Americans don’t know about because almost none of the media has reported that, then yes I’d want Zimmerman arrested.

I’d also want him arrested if there was a significantly contradictory eyewitness report.

The first reporting of the local Fox affiliate does give the eyewitness report information, but the national media haven’t:

The shooting happened just after 7 p.m. Sunday evening on Twin Trees Lane. A man who witnessed part of the altercation contacted authorities.
“The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911,” said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.
John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.
“And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.”

This is really OUTRAGEOUS on the part of the MSM. Almost the whole country has the wrong impression of what happened. Zimmerman didn’t shoot Trayvor because he wouldn’t stop and answer questions or because he was mouthing off to him. He shot him because he was pinned to the ground by the 6’2″ adolescent, being repeatedly beaten up. Shooting wasn’t the first thing Zimmerman did either. He yelled to the eyewitness for help, repeatedly.

“The male brain isn’t fully developed till the age of 25. The prefrontal cortex which inhibits impulses isn’t fully grown till that age. To “infantalize” people between the age of 17 and 19 isn’t dishonest, it’s just a biological fact.”Indeed! Thanks for reminding Randy!

@Truthbetold regarding Randy: cosign!

My two cents: Yes, Zimmerman should be arrested. He acted on his OWN accord when told not to do so. Zimmerman hunted this child (young Man- shout out to Peanut, =) and shot him like a wild animal. I’ve heard all the victim blaming on Fox that typically occurs in these situations. So, I better make sure my hemline is below the knee when going out tonight and oh, when I’m out at 6 on the cold Northeast coast of the U.S. in the morning pounding the pavement, getting my 5 miles in, I better not wear a hoodie (especially with my unpermed hair!) for some white people and even some “honorary” whites will feel threatned, and we all know what could happen if some white ppl feel threatned or perceive your attitude as ‘uppity’.

Personal story: My husband and I have lived in a very exclusive area for ten years. For ten years, I’ve been either running or biking in the morning, and yet the private security crew hired by our neighborhood association needed to be confronted by my husband twice for basically stalking me. Argh!

The 911 dispatcher didn’t tell him not to. He said “we don’t need you to do that” meaning following him. Yes he was discouraging him from doing so but that’s it. As well 911 phone operators aren’t the police. They don’t have authority to tell him not to. But even if they did it doesn’t make him guilty of a crime.

When the police arrived they found physical evidence consistent with Zimmerman’s claim of being attacked and shooting in self defense, and with the eyewitness report. Zimmerman was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head. He had grass stains on his back and his back was wet (the grass was wet from rain).

I think it was a case of self defense. The eyewitness who made the 911 call after the shooting was very clear about what he saw and it was consistent with the physical evidence the police found at the scene of the shooting.

None of this is usually mentioned in the MSM reports on what happened, only that Zimmerman claimed self defense and the police believed him. They had a good lot of reason to it seems to me.

I also find it pretty maddening that the media run pictures of him when it was 13 and rarely recent ones. He’s not the little kid they picture. He’s 6’2″, much taller than Zimmerman, on the football team and strong and fit, to Zimmerman’s obese.

The reason formal neighborhood watch organizations strictly instruct their members not to confront suspects (Zimmerman was not part of such an organization), the reason the laws prohibit private citizens from seeking private vigilante justice, is because not-to-bright individuals (such as obese loser punks with delusions of wannabe cop grandeur) lose sight of the reality that anybody on the street could be an innocent civilian. They’ll guess wrong and then somebody ends up needlessly hurt or dead.

It has been widely reported that Zimmerman previously “caught” another criminal. We don’t know what that means, but I assume it means he physically grabbed a stranger assuming the stranger was committing a crime, and as fortune would have it, in that case he guessed right.

But Zimmy had no special training nor mojo in terms of discerning criminals from law abiding citizens. In fact, as we now know, Zimmy was predisposed to guess wrong with respect to black males. As previously stated, Zimmy is a wannabe cop with fantasies of vigilante glory, probably fueled by his general failure at the game of life. He probably got some “well done” slaps on the back the first time he caught a criminal and was hungry for more.

That kind of activity by a private citizen should be against the law, especially when, as here, it results in a death. Period. If Florida’s “stand your ground” law shields Zimmy here, then it stands as Exhibit A for why these law are wrong for this nation.

By the way, I noted that the Seminole County State Attorney Norman R. Wolfinger Thursday night removed himself from the case. He said he did so in the interest of assuring the public of a fair and impartial review. Bullsh*t. My bet is that he did it because he knows that Florida’s “stand your ground” law will shield Zimmy here, and Wolfinger doesn’t want to be the guy attached to that result. After all, he will need to seek re-election at some point.

The issue here is twofold: (1) Zimmerman is an obese loser wannabe cop who profiled Tray because of his race, but was too much of a punk to finish what he started like a man, and (2) Florida has a law on the books that protects a shit like Zimmerman.

I hesitate to give an answer because it’s highly likely that evidence exists which I don’t have access to, and I lack a background in criminal justice.

But let’s make a few assumptions for the sake of discussion and see where that gets us.

If the existing evidence holds, it appears to suggest that at the time of shooting, Martin was on top of Zimmerman, punching him. Zimmerman appears to have called out for help and none came. Zimmerman had wounds to the face and the back of the head and appears to be the person on the 9/11 tape screaming.

If you knew absolutely nothing else at all about this incident, would that be sufficient under Florida law to charge Zimmerman?

Lacking a background in criminal justice, I can only speculate. I suspect that it probably wouldn’t be, considering the existing precedents of “stand your ground” appear to grant the benefit of the doubt to the defender.

Now let’s add a bit more information, such as the race of Zimmerman and Martin. Does that change the legal basis for whether to arrest Zimmerman? No.

Now let’s add in the ages. Does that change the legal basis for whether to arrest Zimmerman? No.

A seventeen year old football player is certainly capable of inflicting severe injury on a 28 year old couch potato.

Now let’s examine the how the physical altercation came to pass. Might that change the legal basis for whether to arrest Zimmerman?

I suspect so, but that is one area where there appears to be no evidence one way or the other.

That kind of activity by a private citizen should be against the law, especially when, as here, it results in a death. Period. If Florida’s “stand your ground” law shields Zimmy here, then it stands as Exhibit A for why these law are wrong for this nation.

I’m all for them. It doesn’t allow use of a potentially deadly weapon when you’re being mugged for example. It allows it when you either reasonably fear for your life or fear a violent felony will be committed against you. All states allow the first, Florida and some others allow the second.

Just how beaten up do you think Hispanics or whites should have to let themselves be, when they’re pinned down, before they can use potentially deadly force? Just allow a broken arm when they can’t otherwise stop it? How about a crushed leg, such that they might only be able to limp for the rest of their life? Is it ok to prevent fingers from being cut off with a gun shot?

I see our house racists are here again defending a child killer and supporting child murdering with gusto. Way to go, minor murderer fans!

For me anyone who is not legally adult is a child. As for the “towering 6.2”, this guy was 140lbs. That guy is not lean mean killing machine but a tall and lanky teenager. Zimmerman was over 200 lbs. He was 28. If he was not a mutant or seriously retarded a grown up man weighing over 200 lbs shoul be able to handle any teen with 140lbs with one hand if need be. If that grown up is such a loser he can not do that, he should stay in doors at all times because any old granny could whip him at any time then.

I do not know where you guys have lived all your lives, why on earth you guys want to promote teenage killing and rationalise murdering, but where I come from kids are kids. I for one used to do all sorts of very stupid things in my teens, I used to get into all sorts of troubles, did some fighting etc. but let me tell you: when a grown man showed up with bad intentions, no matter how tuff teenagers there were, we all ran for our lives. And these grown ups did not have guns, but bare hands. One grown man against five, ten kids, and we ran like hell.

Another thing you guys keep blabberin about: this kid did not attack any one. Mr Zimmerman ran after him. I repeat: MR ZIMMERMAN RAN AfTER THE KID.How the hell you numbnuts turn that into self defense? Fat obese guy with a gun ran after the kid!! Kid was runing away from him. So who attacked who?

“The 911 dispatcher didn’t tell him not to. He said “we don’t need you to do that” meaning following him. Yes he was discouraging him from doing so but that’s it. As well 911 phone operators aren’t the police. They don’t have authority to tell him not to. But even if they did it doesn’t make him guilty of a crime.”

SAY WHAT? The dispatcher is an official working for PD. He is the conduit between the cops on the street and any callers. When he gives instructions that means you are supposed to do as he tells you. A civilian should do what they are told to do by the dispatcher. If you call for fire brigade and the dispacther tells you to get out from the burning building, would stay in just because the dispatcher is not police??? They are trained professionals, something Zimmerman never was.

George Zimmerman should definitely go to jail. However, he acted as a police officer (not in name or position but in spirit) and thus will be protected from his crimes. One thing that is missing from the discourse about this case is the nature of the police. The police do not exist to serve and protect. They exist to protect this corrupt social order. So long as its pillars still exist, deaths like Trevyon Martin’s will keep happening.

Did you not hear that witnesses actually said it was Trayvon screaming for help while being chased and harassed by Zimmerman ? Did you not hear the 911 tapes where Zimmerman talks about stalking Trayvon?

The facts are this:

1. Zimmerman was NOT bloodied on the ground, begging for help.
2. Trayvon had a hood up because it was raining, not to case a joint or mug someone.
3. Zimmerman was caught on tape stalking (and admitting to following) Trayvon, despite authorities telling him not to do that.
4. Zimmerman HAS been in trouble with the law before for violent actions.
5. Zimmerman has been documented as someone who often harasses and complains about blacks in that neighborhood, and many black people have said they felt unsafe walking around due to his obsessive need to report and follow black men.
6. Witnesses said that Trayvon had been the victim, but they were “corrected” by cops at the scene.
7. If Zimmerman was truly under attack, then it was only because he went after Trayvon first, and by your very logic, he should have been able to use “Stand Your Ground” to beat Zimmerman down until he left him alone.

Using the real facts of the case (and not the ones made up by Zimmerman and his supporters to downplay the situation), Yes, under the law Zimmerman should arrested. Yes, morally, Zimmerman was in the wrong.

I respectfully disagree with what you said. I think President Obama was sympathetic (“If i had a son …”) but relatively neutral. He would be reckless if he ventured into decisions of the judicial system (guilty or innocent). Especially, since he wasnt present at the time of Trayvon’s murder.

It is when you have anyone else like Randy or Doug that are trying to purport non-racism but are siding with Zimmerman (or so-called “innocent until proven guilty”) that i take issue with. What part of the bottom line are they missing? You have a a 30 year old that followed a 17 year old like a predator. And you have a 17 year old shot by the 30 year old. And the 17 year old was unarmed.

Wrong. When the police arrived at the scene of the gun shot, they found Zimmerman with a bloody face and back of his head and further with a grass stained back and wet back (the grass was wet). Further the eyewitness who called 911 told police and a local news reporter that Martin was on top of Zimmerman (who had on a red sweater) punching him repeatedly and beating him up.

The shooting happened just after 7 p.m. Sunday evening on Twin Trees Lane. A man who witnessed part of the altercation contacted authorities.

“The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911,” said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

“And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.”

2. Trayvon had a hood up because it was raining, not to case a joint or mug someone.

Never said otherwise.

3. Zimmerman was caught on tape stalking (and admitting to following) Trayvon, despite authorities telling him not to do that.

The 911 phone operator is not an authority, not police, and didn’t tell even tell him not to, just suggested it by saying “we don’t need you to do that”, meaning follow Martin. Following him for a few minutes due to suspicion he might want to case the neighborhood for robbery is not stalking someone and is not illegal.

5. Zimmerman has been documented as someone who often harasses and complains about blacks in that neighborhood, and many black people have said they felt unsafe walking around due to his obsessive need to report and follow black men.

No, he’s patrolled for possible criminals, caught one and helped catch others. Were they black? Don’t know, might have been. Blacks commit a hell of a lot more crime per capita than whites do. He was well known to the police and though helpful, and was also though helpful by most of his neighborhood association, which wanted him to serve a neighborhood watch function. There had been a lot of robberies in the neighborhood over the last year.

6. Witnesses said that Trayvon had been the victim, but they were “corrected” by cops at the scene.

There was one female witness who later said that, AFTER the whole national furor developed. Cops said she corroborated the 911 caller’s eyewitness account when she first gave them a statement. The male eyewitness’s account was very certain and clear unlike her later one, he was within close and was never changed.

7. If Zimmerman was truly under attack, then it was only because he went after Trayvon first, and by your very logic, he should have been able to use “Stand Your Ground” to beat Zimmerman down until he left him alone.

There is no eyewitness account of how the fight began but I really doubt that short and obese Zimmerman would punch Martin out of the blue. However if Zimmerman was trying to question Martin as to what he was doing in the neighborhood etc., I think it’s entirely plausible that “profiling” of him would piss him off and lead him to start a physical fight (not knowing Zimmerman was armed).

Let’s say that I concede that Trayvon did get the best of Zimmerman, does he deserve to be arrested? HELL to the motha effin yes he should be arrested. Why? Because none of this needed to happen. Had he listened to the 911 dispatcher and stayed in his car and waited for police, not followed him demanding to know what he was doing there, not initiated the physical altercation (per Trayvon’s girlfriend that was on the phone with him up until his time of death to the minute), he wouldn’t have put Trayvon in the position of having to DEFEND HIMSELF from some strange man following him.

Per another witness (a teenage boy around Trayvon’s age) that has come forward to the media this week; as he was leaving his home to take his dog outside for a walk he saw Zimmerman standing over Trayvon while he was still alive, on the ground trying to get away screaming for help. The witness’ sister went inside to call 911, the witness was distracted from the altercation because his dog got off its lead. In the few seconds he took his eyes off of them a shot was fired and Trayvon was dead. He turned back to see Zimmerman still standing above an unmoving/dead Trayvon.

One of them is lying. I’ll give you three guesses which one…

Now, are you saying that Trayvon DID NOT have the right to defend himself from Zimmerman? He deserved to die and Zimmerman should not be held responsible for what he did because Trayvon successfully defended himself from Zimmerman AT FIRST? Zimmerman isn’t even a registered/trained Neighborhood watch participant!!! So yes, I feel Zimmerman deserved to get his ass kicked(if that actually happened) and he deserves to be arrested and charged for killing him.

Biff,
“I think you mean GZ should be arrested and sent to trial. Just because the blacks think a white man is automatically guilty, does not mean he goes straight to jail. We’re entitled to a trial, too.”

How ironic. For marginalized people around the world, we are guilty until proven innocent. And yet when that same logic is applied to one of the majority…

Don’t worry though. GZ will probably get a slap on the wrist because hey, he was only trying to protect his community from those others. Meanwhile, a young man is dead for no reason other than his skin color and yet even then you can not see that. No, instead you make this case all about yourself. Sad really.

Mary Cutcher, who is the witness who after this shooting blew up into a national scandal told CNN that she didn’t think there was a physical fight before the shooting didn’t actually visually witness what was happening before the shooting. She just heard sounds of what she called whining and then the gunshot. Then she saw Zimmerman over Martin AFTER the gunshot.

Mary Cutcher describes what she witnessed that night.

“And at the time that we heard the whining and then the gunshot, we did not hear any wrestling, no punching, no fighting, nothing to make it sound like there was a fight,” Cutcher said to Anderson Cooper.

Cutcher told Cooper that she does not believe the Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

“Originally, I didn’t believe it was self-defense because of what we saw when we walked out on the porch. If it was self-defense, why was he on Trayvon’s back?”

Another caller, Selma Mora Lamilla, who was also on Anderson Cooper 360, said she saw Zimmerman straddling Martin’s body after the shooting.

In contrast the eyewitness John DID visually see Trayvor on top of Zimmerman, pinning him to the ground and punching Z in the face. Further police saw physical evidence that Zimmerman had been beaten up. His face and back of his head were bloody, and he had grass stains and wet on his back (the grass was wet).

Now, are you saying that Trayvon DID NOT have the right to defend himself from Zimmerman? He deserved to die and Zimmerman should not be held responsible for what he did because Trayvon successfully defended himself from Zimmerman AT FIRST?

No.

If Zimmerman started the physical fight, threw the first punches, then I’d arrest Zimmerman. I just don’t think it at all likely that he did.

Although Zimmerman is heavier than Martin, he’s obese and out of shape, Martin at 6’2″ was much taller, a football player, fit and tough.

I think what happened is that Zimmerman questioned him, Martin got pissed at being dissed or profiled etc., Zimmerman didn’t verbally back off, and Martin started beating Z up. Z got scared he was really going to get seriously injured and or maybe killed, yelled to eyewitness John for help repeatedly, (who was the only one who saw as opposed to heard what was happening before the gun shot), and shot Trayvon Martin.

Also, as abagond has said, Zimmerman apparently has a high pitched voice (not sure about Trayvon’s) so Mary Cutcher’s assumption that the “whining” she heard before the gunshot was coming from Trayvon doesn’t hold much weight I don’t think.

As well Trayvon’s father apparently heard a recording of the “whining” and said it wasn’t the voice of his son, which is an admission against interest, and should be given weight.

I also think that witness accounts given right after the events as opposed to ones told to reporters at CNN after this has become a national enormous purported scandal should be given MUCH more weight. It’s obvious that anyone coming down on the side of Trayvon and his family now are going to be given great fanfare by the American MSM, whereas those whose accounts are favorable to Zimmerman’s defense are going to be vilified. There’s a reason why the only visual eyewitness of the fight before the gunshot will only give his first name, John.

The mainstream media has been so god damned irresponsible and intentionally misleading about the evidence for what happened. They’ve whipped up a national scandal by misleading almost the whole public into what likely happened from the evidence.

That’s you. That’s not standard English usage. Pre-teens are children. Teens especially older teens are adolescents. There are plenty of very dangerous older teens.

As for the “towering 6.2″, this guy was 140lbs. That guy is not lean mean killing machine but a tall and lanky teenager. Zimmerman was over 200 lbs. He was 28.

Zimmerman was 250lb, short, obese and out of shape. I don’t even know if Trayvon was really still only 140lb or whether that was three or four years ago, god knows there’s been enough distortions from the families side and they’ve (their lawyer who’s skilled at spinning the press) tried to portray him as juvenile as possible what with all the pics of him when 13 etc., but in any event he was a starting American high school football player, which means he’s got to be muscular and tough if he’s anything but a kicker.

SAY WHAT? The dispatcher is an official working for PD.

No 911 phone operators are not working for the police department. There are police dispatchers who are who mostly route cops to crime scenes, but they’re not them. Instead they pass information on to the police and fire department and ambulances as appropriate. They also do sometimes give advice on how to handle emergencies before help arrives etc.

Yet he fancied his chances cos he had a gun! Regardless of whether an altercation did occur (this wouldnt have happened had he listened to what the despatch said) he went out, ‘armed’, and approached Trayvon.

This ‘Rent-a-cop’ made a choice, an irresponsible and self motivated choice. The man should take responsiblity for what he has done. End of…

The overt message seems to be, ‘if you get into an altercation with a teen – shoot to kill!’.

In the UK, you can get arrested and your children taken into care if you raise your hand to them and yes, at the age of 17, you would STILL be culpable for this. WTF is going on here I ask myself…the double standards and fear are palpable leading to justification of death!

Reading the arguments here from the white populous makes me wonder what will become of the United States of America.

I am deeply ashamed to have been naturalized.

As you can see from the comments of Randy, Doug, Bliff, and any other closeted white supremacist, it’s all about saving and protecting white people at all costs (by making comments on a blog instead of actually be more active) and to hell with black people.

Zimmerman saying “coons,” and they “always get away” was irresponsible and demonstrative of motive.

He didn’t say “coons”.

CNN put a one of it’s top audio experts onto enhancing the 911 tape audio, and then several members of their editorial staff listened to that audio, and they came to no consensus that he said “coons”. That’s a figment of blacks wanting that result.

They always get away was a reference to criminals or suspicious characters, not to blacks it doesn’t appear.

It’s amazingly lame at the extent some people try to excuse this. You all know who I’m referring to. So, I will not mention any names.

The bottom line is that a live of a youth has been taken. The fact that this was the life of a young black male means little to them. Plain and simple. There is no logical explanation for this murder, and this filibustering trying to excuse this (That’s what they’re going. There’s no denying it even though they will because they’re that insane) doesn’t make it any more logical.

I hope I’m not the only one who noticed the blatant lack of morality coming from these people who make such comments.

prettyg– … [had Zimmerman] not initiated the physical altercation (per Trayvon’s girlfriend that was on the phone with him up until his time of death to the minute), he wouldn’t have put Trayvon in the position of having to DEFEND HIMSELF from some strange man following him.

Ah, no, that’s not what she said and the phone call ended a good while before he was shot.

[Trayvon’s gf] told attorneys she then heard the 17-year-old ask “What are you following me for?”

Then a man, presumably Zimmerman, replied: “What are you doing around here?”

The girl said Trayvon must have been pushed because his headset fell off and the phone call ended.

ABC News released the interview during a Good Morning America segment Tuesday morning.

Must have been pushed because the phone call ended is hardly convincing. How does she know his headset fell off? I’d expect Trayvon would have ended the call if he got into a heated argument of if he was the one doing the first pushing, or punching.

Really? Like in 2005 when he was arrested for causing bodily harm to the police officer and resisting violently the police?

“Pre-teens are children. Teens especially older teens are adolescents. There are plenty of very dangerous older teens.”

So according to you, not only Trayvon deserved to die becauise he was suspicious black but also because he was dangerous older teen? Man, you need professional help quickly. Not only you are affraid of blacks but hysterical about teenagers. You have been repeating over and over again here how it is ok to kill teenagers. What is wrong with you, dude? Why you are so affraid of children? Is this some kind of white american sickness too?

You guys are already feeding small kids with prozac by millios and reading your writings here I beging to wonder if white americans like yourself are in desperate need of serious therapy. Dangerous teens and suspicious blacks?? What next? Killer grannies??

CNN put a one of it’s top audio experts onto enhancing the 911 tape audio, and then several members of their editorial staff listened to that audio, and they came to no consensus that he said “coons”. That’s a figment of blacks wanting that result.

They always get away was a reference to criminals or suspicious characters, not to blacks it doesn’t appear.

Okay. Where is the link, video, article or whatever that backs up that he didn’t say ‘coons’? I heard the audio tape myself and I did sounded a lot like ‘coons’. Then again, it could be a figment of my inferior black imagination.

Plus, how do you know what he truly meant by ‘They always get away?’

I swear, you’re trying desperately to make it not sound like a matter of racism.

Really? Like in 2005 when he was arrested for causing bodily harm to the police officer and resisting violently the police?

American police are notorious in overcharging anytime someone they go to arrest gives them any trouble whatsoever, and isn’t completely compliant. I mean just giving police lip when they arrest you is likely to get you charged with resisting arrest and often violently so.

He’d been involved in a bar fight. Probably he didn’t start it or they likely wouldn’t have let him just go to an anger management class which resulted in no criminal conviction.

I’m not claiming the guy is an angel or a completely sterling citizen, but he did seem to do a good job as a neighborhood watch volunteer. Member of the watch committee were happy with him, as were most neighbors, as were police. His work resulted in the arrest of one criminal and aided in that of others. He did study criminology in college for four years although he didn’t graduate.

Okay. Where is the link, video, article or whatever that backs up that he didn’t say ‘coons’? I heard the audio tape myself and I did sounded a lot like ‘coons’. Then again, it could be a figment of my inferior black imagination.

Here you go.

A top CNN audio engineer enhanced the sound of the 911 call, and several members of CNN’s editorial staff repeatedly reviewed the tape but could reach no consensus on whether Zimmerman used a racial slur.

The fact is that the word he used is indecipherable but it didn’t sound like it started with a “c” sound. Many people hear what they want to hear in such a circumstance. It’s not a matter of intelligence but rather of objectivity.

It is as plain as day that Zimmerman is racist. We do not have to hear him say “coon” to know it. It was clear from his description of Trayvon.

Nope it’s not. Only to you and your amen chorus around here, and well many other blacks, and some white leftists yes.

Well if by racist you mean that he’s aware that blacks commit a lot more crimes per capita including robberies and burglaries that his neighborhood had been plagued with over the last year and more, or that most in his neighborhood know/thought they were mostly committed by blacks, well yeah. That’s called knowing the facts. However there’s no indication that he though that every or nearly every black who comes into the neighborhood is a criminal. He hadn’t seen Trayvon there before. His wearing a hoddied didn’t help. His walking around in the rain didn’t help. His apparently checking out the houses as he was walking didn’t help.

Was mestizo Hispanic Zimmerman somewhat racially profiling Trayvon? Most likely. Is that illegal? No. Is that irrational? No. Would he likely have been as suspicious of a black late 20’s guy in a suit and raincoat? No. Is that an irrational distinction? No.

Police do that because they don’t like any defiance and because if in response to even just verbal defiance they rough up the arrested some they want stuff to hold over his head in order for him to not even think about bringing charges against the police, or suit etc.

They do do this more with blacks by the way, but also blacks are far less likely to be deferential and fully compliant to police when being arrested. Black men and often women too tend to easily fly into a rage when they feel they’re being dissed in any way by cops.

Thank God, we all agree that George Zimmerman should go to jail. The man who shot Trayvon Martin was a racist who ”shot him” in self defense.
@Doug1
But that doesn’t mean that George Zimmerman isn’t a racist.I know you were thinking to look at things from a realistic view but still, racism is a big part of this case. If Zimmerman doesn’t go to jail, it would show how racist of a society Ameirca really is. But then again there is racism in most societies.
And the word coon is very outdated.

So basically, because he is under the age of 30, he does not know what the word “coon” means. Even though I am under 25 and know exactly what it means? And by your reasoning, I shouldn’t know all that much given my race.

You’ve probably taken African American studies courses and or read up on whites putting down blacks back in the day (and now in “more subtle ways”) a good lot. He probably hasn’t. It really hasn’t been a current slur for at least 20 years. I’m old enough to know all about it and it’s fading from use largely among rednecks, but he not being black probably isn’t.

So even though a great deal of people hear “coon” or at least something ending with “oon” you claim to hear nothing.

So you apparently are deaf as well as blind to the events at hand. Got it.

Oh, and my reasoning is just fine. My reasoning is only under attack because it does not agree with yours. You are at odds with everyone on this post, yet you come here day after day trying to prove what? And to “inferior” people no lest. I like the way you deflect that observation by saying some form of “it’s not YOU personally”. You say this so much, that it kinds of nullifies your statement of most Blacks being unintelligent. Just where are these masses of unintelligent Blacks? Because you can’t seem to find one on this blog. Just a personal observation. No need to reply. My point my succinctly made.

CNN put a one of it’s top audio experts onto enhancing the 911 tape audio, and then several members of their editorial staff listened to that audio, and they came to no consensus that he said “coons”. That’s a figment of blacks wanting that result.

They always get away was a reference to criminals or suspicious characters, not to blacks it doesn’t appear.

From the CNN article:

A top CNN audio engineer enhanced the sound of the 911 call, and several members of CNN’s editorial staff repeatedly reviewed the tape but could reach no consensus.

Okay. So, if the top audio engineer and several members of their editorial staff could not reach a consensus, why should your conclusion be any more viable?

Imagine that you didn’t know the race of any party, or perhaps that you knew the race, and everyone was white or everyone was black, or maybe that Zimmerman was black and Martin white.

I’d consider the evidence in exactly the same way as I am now. Would you?

That is such bullshit, and you know it!

(Z-Zimmerman, M-Martin)

The bottom line is you choose those two articles because they had black suspects. Be a man and admit it. Somewhere in your mind you wanted to post those article links as an attempt to derail from the seriousness of this matter and justify the murder of this youth.

Here’s the truth: You saw those pictures of the criminals. You become delighted that they were black and their victims were white. So, you copied and pasted the links to both on this post talking about a white murderer and a black victim.

You knew damn well what you were doing and here you are trying to act innocent.

Another truth is that you would not and did not consider the evidence in those two cases. The moment you saw those pictures, you declared them “guilty” in an instant. You support their arrests and imprisonment.

I feel that what you are posting about this event is disgraceful to say the least. The main point is that someone died, and the police did not make an arrest, or take the person in for questioning like they were supposed to. If they had, they could have spoken with Zimmerman at length, and preserved additional critical evidence that related to what Zimmerman said had happened. Justice in America is supposed to be blind, impartial, and fair.

People here have repeatedly explained to you why the events that happened are a travesty of justice. The dogma you are spewing out of your mouth is reminscent of propaganda from some of the white supramacy websites. I am overly tired of some of the pedantic ramblings that I am seeing here that attempt to excuse, justify, and explain away the horrible realtiy of what happened.

This country is headed for serious trouble if this case is not handled correctly. Do not think that people in other countries have not heard about this case or seen video footage related to it. How do you think something like this makes the the U.S look? Nothing can divide this country from without like it can from within. Ultimately, if miscarriages of justice, like the events surrounding this case continue, then you can bet that you will ultimately be faced with, have to live with, a corrupt legal system. Make no mistake about it, it will ultimately affect you. A homeless mentally ill white man, tazed to death in California, a middle aged white man maced to death while in police custody in Flordia, a young veteran assualted and detained while video taping police harrassing two young women. Doug, the examples I provided were all white people. Also, the tensions that result from cases like this in which there is a miscarriage of justice, make it harder for police officers to do thier jobs properly, because of the resulting increased tensions in their respective communities.

We are facing increased militarization of our police departments, increased survelliance, less privacy, and the threat of being arrested, and detained without any rights whatsoever. This is across the board, white, black, whatever. If you continue to refuse to make the connection between an injustice done to someone who is of another race, and the possibility of this injustice becoming the norm for all of society, then I feel for you. Again, the evidence that could have been preserved, Zimmerman’s grass stained shirt, a picture of the injuries he supposedly sustained, his video taped statement of the events. Doug if this had happened, and Travon Martin was white, I would still say that given the events that transpired, Zimmerman should have been arrested, or at least taken into custody, and interviewed extensively.

Zimmerman started following Trayvon in his car, he called the police and the dispatcher told him not to follow him or get out of his car.

He said “okay”.

Trayvon notices Zimmerman following him, he calls his girlfriend and tells him he’s pulling up his hoodie because he’s being stalked. His girlfriend asks him to run, he says he’s walking faster but he’s not running. He tells her at some point he lost the man.

At some point; Trayvon yelled “Hey Man, Whats your Problem!” and Zimmerman gets out of his car. I assume that was before Trayvon’s girlfriend told Trayvon to run but I’m not totally sure of the exact sequence of events here.

Zimmerman asks him whats he doing here.

The situation deteriotes into a confrontation; I think Zimmerman claims Trayvon hit him in the back of the head didn’t he?

And Trayvon gets Zimmerman pinned on the ground and is punching him.

Zimmerman screams for help to his neighbor watching and his neighbor says he is calling the police.

Moments later Zimmerman shoots Trayvon.

Though there is some debate here, one witness says the two were on the ground apart from one another, and other posters here have mentioned witness’s saying Zimmerman was “on” Trayvon’s back.

It has been said that in a similiar crime involving a black man, the black man was first arrested…..so that does seem to indicate some legal precident for arresting Zimmerman, presuming of course that the police were supposed to arrest the other individual and didn’t act improperly because of that individuals race…..

Do not think that people in other countries have not heard about this case or seen video footage related to it.

This is true. It’s all over the news here, and it’s not like we don’t have local problems.

How do you think something like this makes the the U.S look?

If it’s any consolation, this isn’t going to change people’s views on the US – people (at least here) already have a bad opinion on the US.

(Ok, so my country isn’t really an US ally, but even the allied countries tend to see the US as a place with plenty of violence. ) So this case is more along the lines of: “this is how stuff in the US happen” than the “OMG, I can’t believe it, I thought US was different than this”.

Yes, it has been on some of the news here too, mainly about that this has lead to some protesting and that the president commented this case. Not that anyone is surprised about the actual killing, that is seen more as “busines as usual” in USA. Nor it is reported as anything exceptional that cops try to let a white man get a way for killing a black kid.

More Rented Negro opinion, this from John McWhorter. He is FOR arresting John Zimmerman. He argues that by comparing it to the John White case, which has been brought up here too. John White, a middle-age black man who killed a white teenager in 2006 on grounds of self-defence much stronger than Zimmerman’s, was arrested and later sentenced to two to four years in prison (the governor let him out after five months):

Zimmerman should be arrested, period. The kid was disarmed, he was walking to his father’s fiancee house, was carrying candy, was wearing a hoodie and it was raining and he was being followed by this wannabe cop.
How many times my teen son and his teen friends walk around in my neighborhood to the convenience store, sometimes a night…I have done that myself. I feel so much for Trayvon and his family. I hope they get justice.
I am hispanic and I feel that this Zimmerman individual is a shame for all hispanics.

The bottom line is you choose those two articles because they had black suspects. Be a man and admit it. Somewhere in your mind you wanted to post those article links as an attempt to derail from the seriousness of this matter and justify the murder of this youth.

Let me ask you something. You seem like an intelligent person. How does one go about understanding a complex issue or constructing a complex argument about an issue?

Generally, this process involves deconstructing the issue into more manageable parts and addressing each in turn.

Thus, an observer who hears a point of debate needs to understand what part that point was referring to, otherwise the meaning of what was heard is lost.

In the case of the articles I posted, the point was to rebut sam’s utterly nonsensical claim that a 17+ year old boy is by nature a “child” who is incapable of being an aggressor and inflicting severe bodily harm on an adult.

brothawolf:

Another truth is that you would not and did not consider the evidence in those two cases. The moment you saw those pictures, you declared them “guilty” in an instant. You support their arrests and imprisonment.

If you read the articles, you’ll learn that one admitted guilt in court, and the other admitted guilt during a prison phone call. Neither is claiming self-defense.

In order for Doug, Randy and Spliff to own up to it, they must first be ready to have everything they have ever known, everyone they have ever spoken to be challenged. And very few people are willing to do that.

So are you saying that it is to their credit posting here? I have never thought about it that way but i think you might be right. At least they are able to challenge their thoughts by coming here. But nonetheless i think they are infuriatingly ignorant (in every sense of the word).

George Zimmerman definitely should be arrested.
@doug1
You are so racist that you would find ways to defend the killer. You are nothing but a racist, bigot! Even Personinmotion has more sense than you! There are cool and non racist Whites out there that I respect but you aren’t one of them. No wonder the country can’t go forward with it’s race relations.
Bliff, Doug1, and all the other racist White trolls, there is room for you on Stromfront and you can defend Zimmerman there with your racist behinds!

Doug and Randy, (bliff is here for amusement) are here because something we’re saying is nagging at them. It’s called ‘the truth’, but in their reasoning it’s called ‘suspicion’. Coming here over and over to verbally tango with semantics is their way of:

1. Finding out what “the blacks” are up to.
2. Researching how intelligent we really are.
3. Quieting the voices in their heads that maybe, possibly, we could be sorta, kinda be right.

Well if by racist you mean that he’s aware that blacks commit a lot more crimes per capita including robberies and burglaries that his neighborhood had been plagued with over the last year and more, or that most in his neighborhood know/thought they were mostly committed by blacks, well yeah. That’s called knowing the facts.

Careful here, because this also suggests premeditation based on his own preconceptions too, though i’m sure that this is not what you meant by this…..

People have said that before but that is not me. Maybe that is what Adeen meant. But i am quite different from Bliff and I have a different belief system. We do not see eye to eye on most matters. I think that he is either blind to systems of oppression or blind to other people’s perspectives. I think that maybe he hasn’t experienced what others talk about necessarily but still forms his opinions which is always an error when you do not know what you are talking about.

I think it is a matter of supporting POC and being an ally in the cause of social justice. I hope Adeen sees that along with anyone else.

@personinmotion,
My guess is that this is Bliff’s attempt to ridicule you and also to silence you, because Bliff sees you as a race traitor and race traitors are hated by ppl like Bliff. I suppose you could change your name again, but it is probable that this will happen again, jacking names for humor and mal-intent are common among race trolls.

@PersoninMotion
I want other POC to support and rally in case of social justice. I am sorry that I offended you.
You are right and I respect your opinion
@Doug1
I may not agree with you but you have an opinion. You are probably just blind to the fact that your own people are still oppressing my people. I am sorry if I offended you in anyway with my posts but I just don’t agree with you at all. I don’t know you neither should I think you are a racist. Honestly you probably are or not however I think you are more of a person who wants to see things in their own point of view. That is okay but I think everyone is like that in their own way.
i just want George Zimmerman in jail and this case to be over it. If this man is not in jail, well it will show something about America.

Thank you very much. If someone like Doug1 or others were to say the same thing to me i wouldn’t have cared. It is only because i respect your opinion and many of the other posters here that I wanted to ask about that. Your opinions matter to me. =)

Wow!! I’m still getting beat up on this Trayvon Martin gig even though this is about the 6th time I said he should go to trial on this in order to see what the law has to say.

I have given up on going back and forth on this Martin issue because there’s nothing left to say – the evidence has to come out in court under sworn testimony. I think you guys are wasting your time kicking this around, and around, and around….

What folks with access to such international news in India think? Doesn’t really matter, they hardly know about anything in the US ‘cept that it’s what the GRE is for and that’s what they must crack to have a rich lifestyle. I assume, to some it’s ‘yeah, stuff like that happens, but there’s no racism in it. How can the god-romancing Americans be racist? They’ve been sending their soldiers to save the world, their system is the most righteous! My relatives live there and they know. I knew a white American lady who was so decent to have smiled at me’, to some it’s ‘yes, that guy maybe was racist, but racism is rare, so many people of different races live there happily, so racism can’t be rampant’, to some it’s ‘of course they’re still arch-racist. Look what laws they had 50 years back. They lynched black men! They banned Paul Robeson! Racism doesn’t just evaporate like that!’
Unfortunately, the first kind seems to be the overwhelming majority. (but comparing with the entire Indian population, that’s a very tiny percentage, as folks who have access to such international news is a minority)

John White, a middle-age black man who killed a white teenager in 2006 on grounds of self-defence much stronger than Zimmerman’s

You’re nuts on this John White case. There was a MUCH stronger case against John White than GZ. In the John White case, several car loads of white kids came to White’s house because they had a beef with this son. The kids stayed out on the street, maybe ventured a little onto White’s driveway, but did not come up the house. White came outside and confronted the kids armed with a gun. Then he shot and killed one. The bloodstains were clearly on the street, not on White’s property.

During this whole time while White was outside neither his wife nor his son called the police. White should have stayed inside the house and just called the police. He could have protected himself and his family if the mob tried to come into the house.

Thankfully people like yourself are not placed in positions of impartial authority.

You really hate blacks don’t you Randy?

I’m not suggesting that Martin was like this at all, as I didn’t know him personally and neither did you, but one shouldn’t assume a young man of that age is a meek and tender flower.

That is low. Why would you bring up such cases if not to compare Trayvon to these other two. Shoot all blacks with hoodies on, a can of pop and some candies as they may be alleged vicious criminals?

Your attitude is callous and indifferent to the worth of Black life and that is putting it mildly!!!

Good ol’ Randy!

Now ask yourself given the verbosity of your response why you won’t even respond. Guilt perhaps?

Because he has to constantly show us negroes how smart he is! We sees it now sah! This is how folk with low self worth react and behave. Anything that disputes their deluded superiority brings this on!

Black on white murder is very common.

What happened to you then. Why aren’t you a victim? If you speak to blacks the way you write here, it’s a wonder you haven’t been. But we all know you are full of shite!

The important thing though is the eyewitness’s report that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman who was lying on the ground, bloodied, as Trayvon was continuing to beat him up, with Zimmerman yelling for him.

If some weirdo accosted me on the street, I would do the same thing. Fortunately for me, such losers are not allowed to carry guns or weaponry legally otherwise, I could get shot trying to fend the miscreant off. So, you are right about the law in its’ definition, but not as you apply it. Trayvon was in the right to use this law as this unknown man was accosting him. So even if Trayvon did allegedly strike this fool, he was well within his rights to do so. Why would some jackass fearing imminent harm, and, or possible death, get out of his car to apprehend an unknown entity as this Zimmerman claims? He had a gun and was prepared to use it so there was intent to a certain extent.

OneSTDV’

One STD a white racist!!! Good reference!

You’ve probably taken African American studies courses and or read up on whites putting down blacks back in the day (and now in “more subtle ways”) a good lot.

STFU Doug! I was called ‘coon’, spook’, ‘porch monkey’ and jungle bunny’ on a regular basis growing up. Now if you consider that an African American course, I suppose it was, they school of hard knocks. This didn’t occur back in ‘the day either. You’d be surprised at how conversant these racist are with seemingly archaic racial slurs. You, by your own admission are a shining example of this. You are a morally bankrupt and detestable creature.

@Bliff,No, I don’t ….my ID is Bliff. The name of my gravatar, assigned by the website, not chosen by me, is named personinmotion. I have nothing to do with the gravatar being personinmotion.
___
Thanks for the clarification, Bliff.

Typical liberal black opinion. Every black person who is not an ultraleftist is a Rented Negro, House Negro, Uncle Tom, etc. Is there ANY freedom of thought in the black community!! I think not, from what I’ve seen on this blog and all the others (Grio, Root, etc). Black thought is monolithic….and pretty fascist, i.e., if you don’t agree with the monolith, you are an outcast and something is wrong with you.

John McWhorter is at least intelligent. You couldn’t hold a candle to him, Abagond.

If true doesn’t that make the case against Zimmerman much harder to make?

Even if the worst allegations against him are true, that he racially profiled Martin and accosted him in a prejudicial manner, surely that doesn’t take away his legal right to defend himself against serious injury.

Why? Because he loves kissing white behind? Figures you would admire this kind of negro!

You couldn’t hold a candle to him, Abagond.

Coming from a white racist tard like you that is indeed a compliment! What other kerchief headed negroes do you admire? I know! The ones who love kissing white folks buttocks! Yas sah, turn around so I can kiss your buttock! Right or left one don’t matter!

Is there ANY freedom of thought in the black community!!

Yes there is. You just don’t have to kiss white behind in order to prove you have ‘diverse’ views. I’m not referring to ‘libtards’, left wing-nuts or other ‘Marxists'(your characterizations) either but of actual ‘conservatives’. I don’t trust ideology ridden folk whatever their persuasion, they’re nuts.

@Bliff
Do you think George Zimmerman should be arrested? I am just asking you that.
What are you supposed to mean the comment you aimed at Abagond? To tell you the truth, I am not a liberal and I am a young Black woman. I am not saying this to satisfy you but tell the truth. Neither am I a Conservative. I am a independent and I hate labels such as Conservative, Liberal etc and I think that ”conservatives” and ”liberals” from both Democrat and Republican parties had a role in making this country go down the drain economically and I don’t plan on joining the Democratic party. Most politicians are out for the money and power and that is about it. My political ideas are a mixture of Conservative and Liberal ideas is why I consider myself an Independent.
And with I am not going to argue with you on the case of John White. That’s your opinion.
I may not agree with you on a lot of things but I do want to respect your opinion. Opinions matter on this blog as well as feelings.
I hope the other bloggers aren’t upset by my politicial opinions.

well if Abagond is so stupid and you disagree with most of the posters, why do you come here?

Do you understand what dialogue is and the exchange of ideas is? Internet blogs are set up for this very purpose – so one can communicate with others they are likely not to ever come into contact with otherwise. You can hear what I have to say and I can listen you what you have to say. Then we can spend oodles of time and typing insulting each other; just kidding, I mean talking to each other.

Why would anyone want to just talk to people who felt and thought exactly like they do? That’s boring. That’s why I can’t listen to Fox News all the time. I already know what they are going to say!!!

Too many black people think alike. Not so true with whites…we’ve had Communists, Fascists, Republs, Dems for forever. We’re all over the place!

I didn’t say Abagond was stupid. I think he’s just part of the monolith, he’s blind to what’s really going on, just like you.

Time to wash and put up the window screens here in Pittsburgh before it rains!! I’ll answer the rest of you later.

Do YOU understand that you are exchanging ideas with people you consider beneath you intellectually? To exchange ideas means a modicum of respect with the person you are having dialogue with. You’re not exchanging ideas.
Don’t insult our collective intelligence. Oh, that’s right. Our collective intelligence isn’t all that much.
You are a pane of glass. We can all see right through you.

You’re here so much surrounded by people you think less of, you should be paying Abagond rent money.

@DarqBeauty
”You’re here so much surrounded by people you think less of, you should be paying Abagond rent money”
Love your statement and you sounded so sassy!
@Bliff
You never answered my question: Do you want Zimmerman arrested?

Even if the worst allegations against him are true, that he racially profiled Martin and accosted him in a prejudicial manner, surely that doesn’t take away his legal right to defend himself against serious injury.

”
”
”

When Zimmerman stalks and then provokes the exchange, how is it Trayvon’s fault if he defends himself? Honestly.

As I’ve said above, if there’s credible evidence that Zimmerman threw the first punch, then I think he should be arrested.

If there isn’t, in light of the other most credible evidence, which clearly shows that Trayvon Martin was seriously beating up Zimmerman, broke his nose, and was continuing to beat him, then under Florida law no I don’t think he should be.

I have seen no such evidence yet. No Trayvon’s gf’s (who clearly isn’t neutral) reporting or the phone conversation she had with him is NOT evidence that Zimmerman began the physical altercation. That’s just her jumping to a conclusion she massively wants to jump to, along with about all the rest of the American black community. What she says she actually heard is equally supportive of Trayvon starting the physical fight first.

The two women hearing witnesses saw none of the fight that eyewitness John saw. They surmised without reasonable basis that the “whining” they heard (cries for help from Zimmerman according to eyewitness John) “had” to have come from the media portrayed “boy” Trayvon, rather than the obese Zimmerman, because he’s a boy. Only he’s not a boy but a 17 yo 6’2″ adolescent football player, who I’m about sure weighs more than the martin family claim of 140. Yeah like when, 4 years ago or more like about all the pictures you supply to the media.

They only became eyewitnesses after the gunshot sound, and concluded from Zimmerman’s kneeling or otherwise being above the dead Trayvon, that he must have been dominant in the altercation all along — well really they concluded that from their liberal orientation and the leftist media whipped up black supporting hysteria over this case.

Trayvon Martin broke Zimmerman’s nose, badly bloodied the back of his head and might have killed him (which can happen with broken noses hit at certain angles), or very seriously injured him if Zimmerman hadn’t shot him. Or he might not have.

If Zimmerman started the physical fight and then was losing it, I don’t think Florida’s “stand your ground” law applies. I also don’t think it should – UNLESS Zimmerman had a reasonable fear that he’d be killed. In any event I think that if Zimmerman started the physical as opposed to the verbal conflict, he should be arrested and tried. However if Trayvon started the physical because he felt dissed, I don’t think Hispanic Zimmerman should be arrested given Florida law. I also think that’s why he hasn’t been, given the credible evidence the Sanford Florida police have received.

As well I support “stand your ground” laws nationwide. I don’t think typically whites should have to endure being seriously physically assaulted without fighting back with potentially deadly force. Hell no.

@Doug,
Even if Trayvon broke GZ nose, it wouldn’t mean that he should not get arrested. For example, when a woman is being raped, doesn’t she have the right to fend off her rapist? Wouldn’t it be logical that a victim would try by all means possible, to fend off their attacker?
__

I would like to know why the police report does not mention a broken nose or other serious injuries, because the police report says that GZ was treated by the SFD in a patrol car and then brought in for questioning, so… No trip to the ER or ICU?

When Zimmerman stalks and then provokes the exchange, how is it Trayvon’s fault if he defends himself? Honestly.

I think this is a reasonable question and a relevant area of inquiry.

If one person verbally accosts another, does the second person gain the legal right to commit serious bodily injury on the first person? I highly doubt it.

However, if the first person physically (rather than verbally) assaults the second person, then battery has been committed, and the second person can reasonably claim that they were defending themselves.

The Martin’s girlfriend spoke with Martin before Zimmerman finally caught up with him and mentions pushing (who started the pushing I’m not sure) but Martin’s headset comes off and it was reported that a cell phone was recovered from the body and phone records show the girl did speak with Martin five minutes before the police arrived.

A few witnesses mention after the shooting seeing Zimmerman on the Martin’s dead body pinning him down.

From this information, I feel that Zimmerman did in fact pursue Martin without being provoked to do so (Martin wasn’t running which would have seemed suspicious from Zimmerman’s standpoint). IF pushing did occur as the girlfriend mentions it is probable that Martin started to fully defend himself against Zimmerman and could have gotten on top of him and gained the upper hand. This could be why Zimmerman was screaming for help because he believed Martin would beat him up severely and upon seeing no help pulled the gun. IF Martin was hurting Zimmerman so badly I wouldn’t assume he would have time to reach for the gun if his head and face were being severely damaged. However, other witnesses recall running over to Zimmerman and seeing Zimmerman straddle the victim’s pinned down dead body. IF that eye witness account is true then it makes more sense that Martin, NOT Zimmerman, was the one being heard screaming in the 911 tapes. Also, IF Zimmerman did in fact gain the upper hand and pinned Martin down then Zimmerman was no longer in any real danger and could make what Zimmerman did to Martin sound more like second degree murder.

I also feel that Martin was not trying to kill Zimmerman but to get Zimmerman to leave him alone but regardless of what Martin’s intentions may have been Zimmerman used unlawful and excessive force and should be charged with at least 2nd degree murder.

The other problem with this development is the message that is sent to African Americans: your life is cheap because of you have the wrong ethnicity. African Americans should continue to send a clear message that they reject this racist notion outright and press for justice. US belongs to all its citizens regardless of their skin color.

@Randy,
Let’s see, GZ called in an innocent kid for walking while black, follows him against the orders of the police station that GZ called, confronts him, (or approached as you put it) Martin was not only defending himself from deadly harm, he was overcome and murdered.

@Randy,
Let’s see, GZ called in an innocent kid for walking while black, follows him against the orders of the police station that GZ called, confronts him, (or approached as you put it) Martin was not only defending himself from deadly harm, he was overcome and murdered.

What evidence do you have that Martin was defending himself against “deadly harm”? For all we know, Zimmerman may have just been a busybody who mouthed off to Martin.

I’m completely surprised that so many people assume without any disclaim of doubt that Martin was defending himself against “deadly harm”.

He may have been doing just that, but how is it that so many people are expressing certainty about an event of which no evidence has yet been released?

It’s ridiculous these racists (who don’t need to be named) are coming to places like these and having the sheer audacity to say blacks are unreasonable and anti-white. Racists are sick in the head. May God have mercy on your pathetic souls.

yes. he should be arrested. and not only because he’s homely and hard to look at. mostly because he shot an unarmed teen just for being black and alive at the same time…. but we shouldn’t forget the homely part either. that should count for something because the shooting unarmed teen part doesn’t seem to count for much :o/

No, Douglas. This forum is anti-racist to an extreme degree.
Since whites are the default that with which all others are measured, by YOUR doing, we have the right by the first amendment to voice our pain, disdain, agony, humiliation, anger and resistance to all of your shite.

PSA: my first response above was before reading any of the comments. when you respond from the email version of the post, your browser skips to the bottom of the page, bypassing the article itself and ensuing discussions.

now that i’ve read the comments tho, i have one thing to say: why are sooooo many people allowing Doug1 to infuriate them? he’s clearly a troll having fun.

the minute someone appears to believe that:

* intelligence is based on race;
* and only white, ne asian (why not all asians, btw? do vietnamese people get less brains from the brain-giving deity than their cousins?), and asian indians (not certain why the redundancy here) get an adequate amt of the brains;
* black people aren’t just charged and incarcerated more often, but they actually commit more crime per capita… cuz they hate to be dissed;
* the mainstream media is overwhelmingly pro-black in general and esp in the reporting of this incident

is the minute everything they say should be unequivocally invalidated as racist bile from a racist and ignored.

reading all the rebuttals makes me sad.

don’t play w/ trolls people! we can’t win with them. they’re objective is to engage and deflect. when we engage it achieves their objectives. and doesn’t unearth anything new. and very like frustrates a whole bunch of people

@Abagond i personally don’t think these very active repeat commenters of yours brings anything to your blog and tho they clearly comment (REPEATEDLY OMG!!!) often, they just repeat themselves endlessly and when your readers respond to them it just muddies the conversation. That you can run your blog how you wish is a given, but personally… as a sometimes reader… i find the comment section a little sad. but this is the nameless faceless internets where anonymous people have great courage. who knows, perhaps w/out these two the comment section would be unpleasant in other ways. *kanyeshrug.

These are our resident trolls and they are protected minorities under the “10th amendment of Abagonds Constitution” preserving the right to sprout out as much BS as possible within a certain post frame.

We readers at Abagonds blog could not properly function if they weren’t here…who else would provide the comedy.

They have no idea how hilarious (and embarrassingly sad) their posts are, but like the good Trolls that they are, “they take a likkin and keep on tickin”

The fact is I’m being reasonable about the facts and about none of you blacks are.

Oh please! The real fact is that you are biased, are in extreme denial that you are biased, deny that this is a murder by a racist, and are supportive of the killer while blaming the victim.

This forum is a cesspool of anti white black racism.

To an extreme degree.

And yet, you show up all the time in posts that discusses whiteness to varying degrees. You make the decisions to come here. No one forced you. So, why come to a forum that “offends” you?

Is your ego so massive that you hope to sway the people to your side? Are you bored enough to come to blogs crying for attention to the white race, or specifically, you?

In any case you are apparently the kind of person who would blame women for being raped, or in this case, blame black people for getting killed by whites or a system of white supremacy. That is deplorable no matter how much you excuse it.

I don’t even remember you once expressing sympathy for the murdered teen or his family. You went right on to report how the media got this wrong, how Trayvon threw the first punch, and how this is anything but a racist incident. And you will likely try to argue this point with more of your “blacks are more prone to violence because of science and statistics” rhetoric that you love to say over and over again.

Good bless Trayvon but I also want to make sure these three little biracial girls who were killed by their mother last week was acknowledged because the story has not been in the news nor a photo of the mom until i found one. You will see why.

Why is it that whenever people don’t agree with your racist views of them and those like them, they’re suddenly “impartial”? If you want to “communicate” and have a discussion, you should present rational, proven views, not racist dogma that has no real connection to the situation beyond derailing or padding a poor argument.

By the way, the good old lie that “Blacks commit more crime” has been used so much that it has been a get out of jail free card for white offenders. From the “good old days” when white women could fake a rape and have black teenagers lynched for it, to the modern era where a man could shoot his pregnant wife and then have an entire community turn on it’s black residents. Those claims are now considered “eyebrow-raisers” by many law enforcement officers because of how biased and untrue it is. It literally is one of the easiest ways to tell if a possible culprit is lying about his/her involvement. Zimmerman could get off because of that “blacks commit more crime” excuse, but it doesn’t mean it is an accurate view. Especially if it comes from people who thought that BEFORE they saw some slanted post on a slanted site that claimed it was the case. It just proves that there are enough people in positions of authority who think like him, and he’s able to manipulate that.

The true situation is that a teenager was dead. This teenager had a lot to offer the world, and he was slaughtered by a “white” man with a hang up about black people. Trayvon Martin had NO criminal record, was a good athlete and was very smart. Zimmerman had trouble with the law before, has harassed black men in the neighborhood before and thought it was okay to pull a GUN on a 17 year old who was unarmed, with skittles and TEA. If Zimmerman was black and Trayvon was white, you know damn well you wouldn’t be trying to defend him or the views he had. You bring up enough of the “crime statistics” and claims of violence that it’s easy to predict what you would say.

If a white boy walked around with that (even with a hood up) he’d have been free to walk around safely. That is the terrible part. The only thing that got Zimmerman worked up about Trayvon was the race of his victim. Zimmerman’s views are bad, outdated and disproven. And yet, they cost a boy his life.

That is the REAL tragedy. That a teenager is dead over viewpoints that shouldn’t exist anymore. Trayvon’s race doesn’t change that fact, and Zimmerman deserves no defense or excuses for it. I know you view black people (especially ones’ that disagree with you) as inferior beings, that is evident with every post. But you have to at least have some empathy for another human being, and the way that boy was shot, put in a morgue, and left without any word to his worried parents, that is criminal. Like it or not, racist views are what caused that. That and Zimmerman’s apparent instability.

Today, I saw a young black man in my nice suburban neighborhood and said “Hi!”, he said hi with a smile and kept walking home. I didn’t think, “Oh he’s threatening, and the crime statistics I saw on some site says there is a chance he could rob me! I should be ready to shoot him!” Why? Because I see him as a HUMAN BEING who’s trying to live his life and belongs here just as much as I do. If you look at the same man and clutch your purse or feel tempted to follow and pull out a gun, you are not logical or well informed. You are racist, and those views didn’t suddenly come from some statistic you read.

What really bothers me about this whole Trayvon Martin thing isn’t just that a young, and presumably innocent life was lost, but that the media chose to sensationalize this story instead of discussing the real issue. This would’ve been a perfect platform to discuss the failings of the Black community. Namely the High School drop out rates, the lack of education, the insane crime rates, the gangs, everything. Instead it has devolved into the same old “blame the white man” game, which is tiresome. That isn’t to say that we should simply forget about George Zimmerman. He should have done as instructed and stayed away from Trayvon, but instead he engaged him and in the end a teenager lay dead. George Zimmerman has to face the consequences of his actions. However, we do not know what happened in the moments prior to the gun being shot, so everybody who is calling for Zimmerman’s head (and they were even prior to the 911 call being released, which shows their eagerness for a race based argument) is still out of line.

Wait…why would those “Failings” relate? Trayvon was not in school when he was shot, was not in a gang, had no criminal record, no lack of education, etc. And why would people accept YOUR idea of those “failing” that have been proven false time and time again on like every medium imaginable? Why would his being shot by a white man prove failings in the black community? Why would using a boys death to denigrate his race do anything but prove that viewpoints like yours are not only illogical but also vindictive and offer nothing?

Whites seem to want to make this about Zimmerman or Zimmerman being Hispanic or Stand Your Ground or Trayvon the Thug or even black-on-black murder and high school drop out rates. Anything but the elephant in the room: the Sanford police and how they gave this monster a pass – because the Sanford police saw nothing wrong in his behaviour. Because the police in Sanford (and elsewhere), apparently, are cut from the same racist cloth.

I’ve noticed how many point out the “he’s Hispanic” angle, sort of like how so many play down the whiteness of white dictators when it’s time to discuss oppression (ever notice how Hitler was “Jewish” and Stalin wasn’t “white” when it’s time to go over that?). I’v always wondered what drop out rates or black-on-black murder have to do with an identified “white” man spouting white racist views going on to shoot a black teenager. Wouldn’t that prove white-on-black crime or “Zimmerman the thug” instead?

You are right. If mr Zimmerman had shot a white kid, even if that kid would have been a real juvenile delinquent, he would be in jail arrested for murder. But the local cops just let a killer walk, just like that.

What really amazes me is this: if one of the Sanfords finest uses his gun no matter under what circumstances, even for a very good reason, he will be interragated and investigated more throughly than this civilian who just shot a teenager. That is really amazing!!

@Randy, Bliff, Doug, Dave and the like: I dare you all to put on black face, a hoodie over your head and walk around your neighborhood or a gated community after dark. And if you’re still alive come back and report to us what happens to you.

However I think it likely that he like most young black males was hair trigger violent about being what he considered dissed, in this case by someone he would undoubtedly have viewed as an Hispanic. (Zimmerman’s mother is Peruvian, and obviously from Zimmerman’s looks, a quite Amerindian Peruvian, making Zimmerman undoubtably mestizo.)

The desire by blacks and the supporting white left to make this an evil white racist murder by a vigilante white man is overwhelming, despite the strong contrary evidence.

Does no one think this video link by left by poster “G” has any significance?

Clearly the majority view of posters here believe Zimmerman should’ve been arrested and charged. The only ones holding out are Doug1 and Randy (yes you too!)

So it is at least plausible to consider that the bizarre actions of the Sanford Police Authorities, in not arresting (wannabe policeman) Zimmerman, might have something to do with him having some “hold” over them?

There are five other eyewitnesses at least one of which does not agree with “John”. In view of that the PRUDENT thing by far would be to lock him up AT LEAST till the police completed their investigation if not till the grand jury comes to a decision on whether the thing should go to trial.

There are five other eyewitnesses at least one of which does not agree with “John”.

WHAT other five eyewitnesses?

The two women saw NOTHING until AFTER the gunshot and Trayvon was killed. They only heard what the described as whining.

As to any self declared “witnesses” that may have surfaced weeks into this becoming the national black and leftist victimfest, i’m of course going to be extremely skeptical about what they have to say. I’m gonna want proof that they are actually eyewitnesses as opposed to liars.

God knows there’s been plenty of super distorted telling of what “witnesses” had to say in this thread, as I’ve said.

Further the same “whining”, i.e. high pitched desperate calling for help, was described by the sole eyewitness to the actual fight before the gunshot, as coming from Zimmerman, who Trayvon John said was on top of, pinning him to the ground, punching him repeatedly in the face. Further Trayvon’s father, who listened to a 911 tape where someone was calling for help (“whining”) said that voice was not that of his son.

The black and leftist prejudice and witch hunting on this is enormous, and disgusting. CNN should be utterly ashamed of itself.

If Martin threw the punch, that would likely mean that Zimmerman is not guilty of murder but that doesn’t mean he is not guilty of doing anything illegal or that the police should not have arrested him.

@Doug1
Wow………….you really don’t like Blacks! If you don’t like Blacks, why do you comment on here then? And I would love for you to tell how much you dislike and look down on Blacks right in a Black person’s face.

I want Zimmerman arrested!That I all I want and I want for him to go to trial as well. And afterwards go to jail for life or get the death penalty.

What we have here, is the persistent belief, that the black American has no rights, which nonblack are bound to respect. And what rights they do have are conditional, ie. clothing worn, perception of the nonwhite, etc. The rights of black men (and women) was decided in a decision by Justice Judge Taney, in Dred Scott vs. Sandford (1857), made by Judge Taney.

….”It is difficult at this day to realize the state of public opinion in regard TO THAT UNFORTUNATE RACE which prevailed in the civilized and enlightened portions of the world at the time of the Declaration of Independence, and when the Constitution of the United States was framed and adopted; but the public history of every European nation displays it in a manner too plain to be mistaken. They had for more than a century before been REGARDED AS BEINGS OF AN INFERIOR ORDER, and altogether UNFIT TO ASSOCIATE WITH THE WHITE RACE, EITHER IN SOCIAL OR POLITICAL RELATIONS, and so far unfit that

THEY HAD NO RIGHTS WHICH THE WHITE MAN WAS BOUND TO RESPECT….”

This is where Zimmerman and his supporters appear to feel that they have a case in why Zimmerman should have interacted with Martin in the manner in which he chose.

Several posters, who contend that the court of public opinion is unfairly accusing Zimmerman, seem to imply that there is no historical precedence, on which the behavior of Zimmerman and the Samford police have acted; that this has all occurred in a vacuum. Black Americans are in disagreement with that. Why? Based on the 911 call Zimmerman made prior to the murder, a history of profiling young black males and the ‘cover-up’ and handling of this case by the police. southern history is rife with these occurrences.

In constructivism, there are the four ways of knowing: a priori, authority, empirical and experience. The ones listed below, I found on wiki

1. Empirical is the scientific knowledge.
2. Personal is what you know from lived experiences.
3. Aesthetical is related to creativity.
4. Ethical is dealing w/ issues that there is no black/white answer.
Need to consider society, norms, moral issues, legal, etc.

I’m many years from grad school, so I might have these backwards, but, nonwhites are attempting to look at this through an extremely biased empirical lens. ‘We’ are looking at this from the personal, the ethical, authority, experience and logic/empiricism. By this time, there is no question that much of the evidence (empirical) has been tampered with, and so, there is a huge possibility that ‘we’ may never know what occurred, where Zimmerman and Martin intersected, into young Martin’s death. We have data that leads us up to the incident, and of course what happened after, but not what occurred at the point of contact.

doug1: “The black and leftist prejudice and witch hunting on this is enormous, and disgusting. CNN should be utterly ashamed of itself.”

Dougie, you think you should be ashamed? I mean, here you are openly supporting murderer and encouraging people to kill children via making handy excuses why they could be killed (dangerous teenagers, wrong clothes, remember??) etc.

I, as a grown up man, do not feel any pity or understanding to any adult who kills children. Nor do I feel nothing but contempt and disgust towards those who advocate such things, like you do.

I see no difference between you and those who argue that pedophiles have rights too because it is only natural thing, just like you argue that it is only natural kill kids if they punch a grown up man on the nose or defend themselves against stalking grown up men with guns or behave badly in any sense, or are suspended for two weeks from school etc.

That is just the way it is. You think you can act like nothing when you have defended child murderer? You think that that stain does not stick on you? Of course is does. You support killing of teenagers if they wear wrong clothes, or particulary, if they are black. That does not make you fine man, a good person. It makes you pretty sick individual.

If you really do not understand why it is not right to kill teenager, you are Dahmer in making. You have the same rationale. You think it is ok to murder someone when you feel like it. You really say here that you think it is ok to kill kids. That is amazing. That is really weird.

I wonder how you would feel if some one would kill your kid, no matter the circumstances. Would you still think that it is ok to murder teenagers? Would still say that if my kid punches grown man on the nose, that man has right to kill my child? If my kid defends himself against armed grown man in the darkness of the night, he deserves to be killed? Would you say that? That is what you have been saying here all the time.

If someone gets shot, you get arrested guilty or not.
In this case Zimmerman appears very guilty and on all counts the boy could not be wrong. Even if he was not the one screaming. He was not wrong for standing his ground and if perhaps he did get the upper hand, he was still standing his ground.
Zimmerman is clearly racist and should be charged with manslaughter.

Another thing is that stupid people like Gingrich are personally offended by Obama’s remarks, “If I had a son he would look like Trayvon Martin.” Do they think Obama is not personally offended by the police incompetent behaviour and that a young boy lost his life because a man thought he was suspicious because he was black?
Those people live in a white political bubble.

People have to understand that these pseudo-intellectual jokers that come on here, spreading fecal matter around like some tail swishing hippo, are just starved for attention. You are aren’t going to educate them. You are going to make them see the light. They are lost and they are hoping to drag you down to their level, so they won’t be so lonely at the bottom. They’re bottom feeders. When you give them your energy, it weakens you and feeds them. It’s not worth it. Let them starve.

None of these failings have been proven wrong. In fact they’re proven right every single night that the local news is on and every single time there is a story out of Detroit or Chicago or Philly. I mean, you cannot possibly be that blind. I also never said that Trayvon was in a gang, lacked education or that he had a criminal record. I also never said that his being shot by a white/Hispanic man somehow proved anything. My point was just that the criminal over-representation of black Americans is what leads to them being racially profiled or stereotyped as violent. We should react against such profiling, but only as much as you’re willing to react to your own people’s crap. You want to look as far back as slavery to explain the current black situation, but you’re not willing to look at yourselves to explain why your people are seen as a violent group. I don’t believe Black people are violent. That would be illogical, but I see the facts and I know that Blacks are over-represented in crime rates. That is just a fact.

Where’s the outcry for this Black people? I don’t mean to downplay the murder of Trayvon Martin in anyway, but surely this is tragic as well? The poison of Black on Black crime is killing the Black community, yet you never speak on that. Racism is bad, I agree but so is this crap which imo is even worse than any kind of racism.

From the site, “CeaseFire uses a public health model to stop shootings and killings. We combine Science and Street Outreach to track where violence is heating up and then cool the situation down.”

There is also the “Stop the Violence” Campaign. I’m from Chicago so I only know mostly about those two. They receive almostno media attention but are addressing violence in different communities within Chicago. The news channels are not the only sources on everything that is happening in a neighborhood or community.

Mentions the father, upon hearing a cleaned up version of the audio of the shooting being sure that he heard his son screaming (this is after the initial reports stating that the father believed it was not his son).

Zimmerman was following Martin, this is clear in the 911 call and Martin’s girlfriend statement of Martin mentioning being followed.

Zimmerman mentions getting into a fight with Martin and Martin’s girlfriend mentioned hearing a scuffle.

Those things are clear, what isn’t is who started the scuffle and what caused Zimmerman to feel that he needed to shoot Martin. But in the end Zimmerman used excessive force. He had more weight on Martin and easily could have gotten Martin on the ground if he needed to. Zimmerman had a gun which did not have to be fired in order to stop Martin from hitting him.

That type of screaming on the 911 call is not one for a person just getting beat up, that was someone who saw a real threat towards their life and that could only have been the person who had a gun pointed at them, Martin. But that is just me speculating and without the forensic evidence a clear call cannot be made but one thing is clear to me and that is Zimmerman killed Martin and it should fall under manslaughter or second degree murder.

There are five other eyewitnesses at least one of which does not agree with “John”.

Who are these other eyewitnesses? I know of three witnesses only one of whom was an eyewitness to the fight before the gunshot, plus Tayvon’s girl friend who was on a cell phone with him, but NOT all the way until the shooting.

The one eyewitness to fight says that stuff that I’ve detailed up thread, and linked, but what it amounts to is that Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned down on the ground on the grass and was repeatedly punching him in the face, while Zimmerman was shouting “help me, help me” repeatedly.

The two women earwitnesses to the events before the gunshot and of the gunshot, heard someone they described to CNN’s Anderson Cooper as “whining” who they concluded “had” to be the child Trayvon, probably due to all the child photos of 6’2 athletic football 17yo high school senior (said by police to be 160lbs) that the Martin’s black attorney has spun the media into accepting as “current enough” and into running. (Which is appallingly biased.) However Trayvon’s father told the media the rather high pitched voice shouting for help wasn’t that of his son, and two of Zimmerman’s friends one of whom is now an attorney spokesperson for him and the other of whom is black, says it was that of Zimmerman. (Actually both women were eyewitnesses after the shot, but I’m not sure that both heard the shouting for help described as whinning. I know that

Trayvon’s girlfriend saw nothing but did speak on the phone with Trayvon before Zimmerman talked to him, and when he did but only through the first exchange, after which the cell phone call ended on Trayvon’s side. Actually Trayvon began the verbal exchange. He said “why are you following me?” and he then replied “why are you here?”

She concluded from that that Zimmerman “must have” been the first to get physical, but that’s not at all convincing to any remotely fair minded person. Trayvon would very likely have ended the cell call if he was getting into a heated argument or if he was the one about to first get physical.

So who are these fourth and fifth “witnesses” other than John you’re claiming? And when did he or she come forward, and to whom? And how about some links, like I provide when first presenting evidence?

This is what Trayvon really looked like last February as opposed to when he really was a child which the MSM has endlessly run, or the closest I know of to it. The pic in the upper left corner is the one in which he looks the oldest so presumably is the most recent. They reportedly come from his facebook.

@Abagond: “Whites seem to want to make this about Zimmerman or Zimmerman being Hispanic or Stand Your Ground or Trayvon the Thug or even black-on-black murder and high school drop out rates. ”

This is the kind of statement that is simply unhelpful, nor valid to any degree by the results of your very own poll. “Whites” overwhelmingly agree that Zimmerman should be arrested for this killing, so why the statement?

In any case, a better poll question would be “should he be charged and tried for the killing” the answer is a definite yes. Right now all we know is what the media and rumor have reported, and this makes Zimmerman look very guilty. In court (hopefully) the truth will come out and justice done. The trial should probably not be in that part of Florida. It’s hard for me to imagine that Zimmerman can claim self-defense when HE sought out the confrontation.

Really? Who cares what pictures he took? No one should really be claiming it’s more “justified” to shoot someone IF they take pictures a certain way. Everyone on the web would be doomed at that point if that were true. Stop trying to portray Trayvon as a “thug” to justify his shooting, when the man who shot him had a criminal record and straddled him with the gun (after shooting him) until he died.

Also, “reportedly”? I read this website….it’s kind of slanted, and it’s called “Justice for George Zimmerman”. Why don’t you use facts that aren’t from reportedly right wing news outlets or people who have entire sites up about supporting Zimmerman (oddly BEFORE he’s even charged…). Also, the whole “oh and the white house is worried about Florida?” sentence just showed the sort of person who’s running this.

Sigh, it’s stuff like this that snuffs out any slight optimism I may start daring to entertain. The tragedy is one thing, but the attitudes surrounding it are truly depressing. It reveals something fundamentally broken in the white psyche that causes many to perceive POC as extremely threatening even when they (whites) possess tangible advantages. Indeed, the whole scenario is a microcosm of society as a whole so white reactions shouldn’t be surprising. Zimmerman’s actions are perfectly reasonable to them as long as the victim is black. Because irrational fear of black people is rational to white people.

That so many people can consider a claim of self defense on Zimmerman’s part credible says a lot. Zimmerman is in a vehicle, Martin is on-foot. Who has the greater capacity to flee? Zimmerman is armed, Martin is not. Who has the greater capacity to kill? Zimmerman is 250 pounds, Martin is 140 pounds. Who has the advantage in a tussle? Yet, given these facts, a 28 year old white man can stalk and kill a black teenager, claim self defense, and evade criminal charges.

Only with racist logic can one fail to see something wrong with this picture. If Martin were white this would have been a confusing and outrageous tragedy. “Why?” and “How could this happen?”, would be the words of everyone’s lips. But he’s black, so it “makes sense”: black people are automatically dangerous and suspicious in the eyes of white people. Instead of being punished, Zimmerman finds himself in a place of white solidarity and understanding. It “makes sense” to me too, but that doesn’t mean it’s right. Because the sense only comes from understanding, at a conscious or subconscious level, that racism in America is the norm.

I said reportedly in to be upfront and fair. I haven’t checked Treyvon’s facebook.

Feel free.

But that’s what that site said.

My point about the pictures isn’t that some of them or really just one of them on the site I linked looked kinda thuggish. I don’t put much credence in that without more either.

The pic I pointed out was the neutral but not at all little kid looking one in the upper left hand corner at that link, because he looks oldest in that one, and thus it’s likely to be the most recent one.

It puts a lie to the family’s PR that this was a slight little kid looking 17yo, as does his being a senior in HS athletic 6’2″ football player.

Look the likely reason the two female ear witnesses to the physical altercation were sure the “whining” voice (shouting, pleading “help me, help me”) had to be that of “victim from the get go” Trayvon was likely due to all the extremely misleading pictures of him from years ago that the Martin family lawyer has supplied to MSM and which they’ve been willing to run endlessly as “good enough”. Propaganda spin and not rejected by the complicit MSM. Incredibly biased is what that is.

Except for YOU are the one who brought up those failings in regards to Trayvon’s case, not me. In fact, you prove my point by even implying that I am black just due to the fact that I agree with many of the black people on this blog. That proves that you aren’t really interested in much beyond trying to complain about black people.

Also those have been disproven time and time again, however racists sort of have a hard time following any real facts at all. That’s why they still believe crap that was proven wrong a long time ago. No matter what black people do, you would be out here with a “list” of what they’re doing wrong. Here’s a thought: Instead of going off of those statistics why don’t you just take the word of the people who actually are black people? I think they could know better about what the “failings” are than you would. In fact, if you actually stopped throwing out statistics or news links about it you might actually take the word of one of these black people when they say that they’re upset about black on black crime, although they know personally that the media likes to exaggerate how bad it is when its time for a boogeyman. It’s over represented due to a racist system that benefits from that caricature, not because of black people. In fact, black people just might be outraged over the fact that a white guy used his race as an excuse to be able to play judge and executioner over a teenager. You know, that’s pretty understandable, since we have a history in the US of going on anti-black witch hunts because a white guy (or woman) feels insecure. And since Trayvon was a human being, not a rabid dog, you shouldn’t be surprised that people are outraged over him being shot down like one.

Finally, no one here brought up slavery. In case you haven’t noticed, racism didn’t END with slavery and sure didn’t end when black people were FINALLY given at least some legitimate citizenship and semblance of equality during the 60’s. Lynching sure didn’t end. Bringing slavery up here to try to point out some “hypocrisy” in people being upset over a teenager’s death is just irresponsible and does nothing but make you seem like a ranting, raving racist with a chip on his shoulder. Sorry.

The link to the young man’s facebook page. Yes he looks a bit older but I wouldn’t assume he’s a “gangsta” considering he has NO CRIMINAL RECORD.

Also that site (http://trayvon.tk/) mentioned that Martin would have needed to jump the fence. I would assume that if he didn’t have family that were residents of the gated community. If he needed a key they could easily have given him one before he headed for the store so that was an unjustified and biased statement to try and question Martin’s moral character.

They focus only on one witness that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and does not mention any of the other witnesses including a 13 year old who was walking his dog and saw a man on the ground screaming for help. That is also fairly biased. There is a lack in credibility when a news source is biased. True journalists provide fair and unbiased news from all sides of the story.

I do dislike the younger photos of Martin because they are a bit misleading. However, the question is really was Zimmerman justified in killing Martin and as the current evidence stands I will have to say no.

But why check his facebook at all? What does that have to do with him being shot? Was he on facebook talking about casing a joint he was going to hold up? No. What does a “kinda thuggish” picture have to do with him being shot? Do you know how many people of all races take pictures and poses like that? Does that mean that they should be shot?

Lie? Family PR? They would know more about their kid than someone’s interpretation of his supposed “Facebook” pictures. My brother is the same height . His voice isn’t deep because of that, and I’d be damned if someone tried to tell me what he looks and sounds like. Also, people don’t all scream with deep voices when they’re scared and begging for help. Why all of the effort to try to prove the family as lying? Why all the effort to try to find some way to justify someone thinking he was dangerous? Why not just accept the fact that Zimmerman, a man who has a history of racial bias against blacks, followed the kid, assumed he was a crook (like he claims in his calls to the dispatcher) and shot him? The same witnesses also say they saw him straddling over the teenager’s body and providing no attempt to resuscitation him, he didn’t even turn him on his back. He chose to shoot him for racial reasons, not because he had been forced to.

The only thing that is biased is the immediate choice of people to start attacking Trayvon’s past and family when neither of those played a part in why he was hunted down by a man and shot. You seem less likely to take their word that he had no criminal record and did good in school, why is that? For all you know, the picture used by the family was the most recent, he could have a babyface. I mean, that website you linked seemed like quite the cherry picker when it came to images to choose. And even if he does look slightly older now, who cares? How does that justify him getting shot? It seems more like you are trying to find a way to question the motivations of the family or their legitimate grief, would you do that if the colors were reversed?

I wouldn’t use a site that criticizes the white house on Obama talking about the case making him think of his daughters and is called “Justice for George Zimmerman” as a source.

@Doug
Your link trying to paint a picture of Trayvon as thug didn’t work for me, he is still a kid and you obviously don’t have kids on facebook

However, your link does state that Zimmerman’s father is a retired Supreme Court Judge from Virgina, so more pieces of the puzzle are falling together.
Your article didn’t link to the police report where GZ had a broken nose and was treated at a hospital, the police report I saw only mentions that GZ had blood on his nose and was treated by SFD in the police car.

Also, the witness you are referring to is not new, I read his statement quite a while ago, who cares? Witness statements do not carry the same weight as recorded 911 and other phone records, ballistics. ect. People get confused about what really happened, just ask any first year law student….

Oh, and the assumption by your link that Trayvon must have jumped over a gate to gain entrance is further proof that you need to have your head examined.

“@Abagond: “Whites seem to want to make this about Zimmerman or Zimmerman being Hispanic or Stand Your Ground or Trayvon the Thug or even black-on-black murder and high school drop out rates. ”

This is the kind of statement that is simply unhelpful, nor valid to any degree by the results of your very own poll. “Whites” overwhelmingly agree that Zimmerman should be arrested for this killing, so why the statement?”

MOST commenters know that I am not God, that I am speaking from personal experience. And those who speak English while not being defensively white also know that “whites” does not mean ALL whites.

Also, I am not just talking about pro-Zimmerman whites but even those who want him to be arrested. MOST whites do not talk about the racism of the Sanford police or the police in general. THAT is my point. I assume SOME whites have, but in MY experience they are far and few between.

Forgive me Abagond if this seems off topic, but for those who are angry or griping about how black people don’t have the same outrage over black-on-black crime as we do for white-on-black crime, please read this:

1. This line of argument about black-on-black murder is extremely insulting. It says, in so many words, that blacks do not mind being murdered by other blacks, which is completely nuts.

2. As to high school drop out rates or out-of-wedlock births, that is an utter derailment.

3. Trayvon’s Facebook pictures: The police should go through everyone’s Facebook page and bring in everyone who looks “thuggish” and shoot them dead. Because those are the real criminals. The world will be so much better on the day after. /sarcasm ended. Or as baddominicana on Tumblr put it:

“if i get shot up for existing, make sure to show em this pic so they know it was ok to kill me and i obvs had nothing to live for anyway.”

The poison of Black on Black crime is killing the Black community, yet you never speak on that. Racism is bad, I agree but so is this crap which imo is even worse than any kind of racism.

I’m going to assume that you didn’t care about black-on-black crime in the first place. So, why are you NOW concerned?

You’ve seen an explosive outcry from the black community over this and other similar forms of injustice on black people that the media covers. However, the media vastly ignores large examples of the black community trying to stop black-on-black crime.

The link that I provide should prove that there are many black people who care about black lives no matter who decides to take them. Whether it’s a white-hispanic guy from the suburbs or a black dude from around the way, black people are tired of seeing the lives of their own taken like they were nothing.

Well from over all, I truely believe george zimmerman should be arrested for first degree manslauter.people are wondering if zimmerman made a rcial statement. Well he said in the 911 tape he said. Quote- they allways get away. NOW COME ON FOLKS. What if he was a mexican would he say that about his own race. What about a preety black girl whereing a hoodie or a white person. I don’t think so. No I believe zimmerman is a coward to even not to listen to the 911 tape to stay away. If it was me i would of listened to the athorities to stay away. Do not approch but zimmerman disobayed the athorities took the law into his hands and caused the situation to get out of hand. Zimmeman killed the young boy. It’s to bad that zimmeman had a gun that he in no wise should have had. What if zimmerman hd a baton woud he had beat the kid to death. I wonder. If the cheif of poice n was not a coward to step down in which i would face the music. It is known that fear sets in when you are being stalked and you will fight back

That is a dodge. You can’t even say “most” or “many” whites in this case, only a “very few” whites by your own poll are defending Zimmerman yet your implication is much larger. Most “people” I know think he should be tried as a criminal, as evidence it is a major topic on FB right now to see that Zimmerman sees the inside of a courtroom. The racism of the Florida police is a MAJOR part of those conversations. You didn’t think all this outrage and media attention was occurring in a vacuum of white interest, did you?

There will always be a few who won’t agree with anything including the color of the sky. What I find incredible is the Hispanic response to your poll.

Trayvon’s Facebook pictures: The police should go through everyone’s Facebook page and bring in everyone who looks “thuggish” and shoot them dead. Because those are the real criminals. The world will be so much better on the day after. /sarcasm ended.

I think the issue with the pictures has to do with the MSM narrative that Martin was a doe-eyed naif who couldn’t have possibly been culpable in engaging Zimmerman in a physical altercation.

Again, why are you so offended at Abagond but not Doug1 or Randy? They’ve said much worse about the black population as a whole in this thread than Abagond has ever said about the “many” white people who support Zimmerman or who are at least trying to make him seem less culpable.

@ Randy,

But why is it your responsibility or anyone elses to prove something about Trayvon? Would you be taking this stance if it were the picture of a doe eyed white teenage girl who was murdered? Would you be trying to imply wrongdoing on the part of the victim’s family or trying to imply that the victim should share some of the blame? Likely not.

@ Someguywny: “You’ve just got to love when bigots imitate [what is commonly perceived (confirmation bias) and purported to be black American vernacular speech ] while claiming a lack of bias.”

I do!!! Willfull ignorance at its best!

Rigid subscription to underlying beliefs/assumptions precludes rational discussion with folks like Doug1; nevertheless, I admire the tenacity of those who respond to his hate and fear-based repetitive rantings.

Peace and Good Health wishes for ALL (yup, you too Doug1, Bliff, and Randy….et al.)

Why am I saying this another faked news story? Because it is one of the kind of news story they make up for tougher gun control laws to put in place. It has all the elements of a phony story. People are researching the pic they are using for the “shooter” to see if it has been used before. Also the pic of “Treyvon” is being researched. People are tired of being lied to by media. Also, along with the gun control aspect, I think want this to be used to cause friction between blacks and hispanics.

No, it’s true. A real teenager (NAMED TRAYVON not TREYVON”) was shot and killed. It’s not a fake, stop disrespecting him, his family, and friends by pulling that. It’s not cute. Trayvon and his family do not exist for you to prove some point about the media or for you to “research”. Also, why would they be using it to make a rift between hispanics and blacks when Zimmerman has identified as white and the media has called him white? Wouldn’t they have immediately played up the “hispanic” angle if they just wanted to cause a rift?

It seems to me that others have already said everything that can be said about doug1, and to a lesser extent Randy. In the time I’ve been reading I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything by doug1 that I agree with, if that helps. I can’t get a read on what Randy actually thinks, as everything he writes seems to be in a style with no conclusions – he tries so hard to seem balanced he merely seems phony. Abagond writes many things I agree with, but at times writes things that make me wonder if multiple people are penning his posts. YMMV of course.

Yes I see, but that doesn’t explain why you take issue with Abagond’s statement about “whites” but not their statements about blacks. I think it seems a little problematic when you come off like your more mad about Abagond than Doug1 and Randy, especially when they try to blame Trayvon’s death on himself. They definitely are proving Abagond right about a lot of what he says, and shouldn’t be viewed as individuals when the people here can’t have that same respect from them. They sure as hell don’t mind making blanket statements about all black people here which is a lot more problematic than saying “many” whites support Zimmerman.

@ Abagond
This might be late but here goes: Zimmerman’s father is a retired judge. That explains the lack of charges. And I think the area of Florida has strong KKK activity and KKK in law enforcement, big surprise right?

I believe Shondis. who has sanpaku eyes in real life? NOBODY!! this pic of a “zimmerman” is a fraud just like the entire story. I see yall have researched sanpaku eyes, now research FAKED NEWS STORIES!! and no we are not disrespecting his family because there is no such person. all the family you see are actors. look at the “mother” she aint even a good actress.

Yeah, I saw well known Hollywood producer in one of those news clips. I bet Sanford is just a movie set and all those cops are actually extras hired from cafees around the Wiltshire boulevard. There is no other reason why one well known Hollywood director can be seen in that area so often with a film crew. Also no other reason for the movie web site and production commercials in Cannes for next summers festivals. Also why else they would have resurrected John Wayne, Bogie and Brando. I also saw Elvis nearby. This must be just a bad movie, right?

If you read the same article, it lists many people who do. Marilyn Monroe and JFK are considered two of them, so is James Dean. Do they not exist?

Yes you are disrespecting them. Again, they do not exist for YOU to glorify your paranoia or anti-media propaganda. You can’t just will black people out of existence because you want to, especially when you have facts staring you in the face that you refuse to acknowledge. You do realize that this happens a lot to black teenagers right? Are they all fake too? Or is it only fake because you are used to black teens being killed without any sort of media attention?

Its a reality that, unfortunately, needs someone white to acknowledge before most Black or white people will pay attention. I’ve actually documented in detail much of the evidence, and more, she cites.

I do have to say I’ve seen black artists do things in honor of Trayvon.

On Sinead…Well…it started well versed, especially the part on just how much self-hatred is tied to hating black people. It then reduced itself to the typical white person telling black people how to live and “better” their situation stuff. Black youth don’t need a lecture from their “mother” Sinead on what their situation is, reducing them to a blanket group who is dependent on rap, guns, drugs etc. is just as bad as if a racist said the same thing.

I can’t get a read on what Randy actually thinks, as everything he writes seems to be in a style with no conclusions – he tries so hard to seem balanced he merely seems phony.

The ambiguity in my commentary reflects the perceived ambiguity in the known facts. Sometimes the most accurate conclusion one can draw from the available evidence is that a concrete conclusion cannot be drawn.

Would you be taking this stance if it were the picture of a doe eyed white teenage girl who was murdered? Would you be trying to imply wrongdoing on the part of the victim’s family or trying to imply that the victim should share some of the blame? Likely not.

My desire is for a more rational world. To the extent that individuals and groups (such as the media) create and disseminate falsehoods, I object. Fallacies, irrationalities, and con jobs should be opposed wherever found.

His only desire is to be an apologist for white racism by engaging in his patented and warped version of “The Devil’s Advocate”. Which at the end of the day is nothing more than him consistently attempting to rationalize examples and instances of (mainly) non-blatant white racism whenever they arise. Whenever he posts, he makes sure that he dismisses these instances by trying to whittle them down and diminish them, or intentionally misinterpreting the meanings of simple words in order to engage in long derailing Strawman Arguments and Red Herrings. All the while making darn sure to never bluntly give his own personal stance on an issue, in order to keep up his facade of neutrality up.

It’s not that hard to pick up on after a while, and it becomes as noticeable as overt racism.

And yet you only seem to view things said by black commentors (or in favor of black people) as something you should object to. You show no objection to bias, blanket statements, ad hominems and con jobs when they are pulled by white people, especially on this blog. You fail to point them out no matter how ridiculous they are, and you try to play devil’s advocate. You aren’t consistent enough to play the role of the “rational party”.

You have yet to link to the five witnesses other than John, at least one of whom you say contradicts John.

The only one I’m aware of who appears to be contradicting John was NOT an eyewitness until AFTER the gunshot, a good while after in fact since she stayed on the 911 call a while after the gunshot and said she was hiding herself and I believe her son from the shooter for a while. What she describes is Zimmerman standing over Trayvon, which lead her to (wrongly) concluded that he’d been the dominant one the whole time.

What she heard was what she described as whining or shouting — what John called shouting for help — which she concluded days or weeks later “must” have been coming from the boy because it was rather high pitched. This was probably after seeing all the media pictures of a little boy that the Martin’s lawyer spun to the press. However Trayvon’s father said the voice shouting for help on a 911 tape wasn’t that of his son, and two friends of Zimmerman have said that that was the voice of Zimmerman.

To me, bottom line, even if Trayvon wasn’t an angel at school and even if he began to beat the holy sh* out of Zimmerman, Zimmerman was told to not pursue the young man. And, I’m sorry, if I was a 17-year-old boy and some weird dude was following me in a car for reasons unknown I would turn on him and fight him with all my might as well. For all Trayvon knew, this guy was the next Jeffrey Dahmer. I mean, co’mon. Weird guy following you in a car not a cop or anyone with authority that you know of?! Once Zimmerman disregarded the dispatchers orders and went in pursuit of this kid who was doing nothing but trying to get back to his father’s place, he shattered any claims to “standing his ground.”

“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.”

As Jealous told the crowd, “I stand here as a son, father, uncle who is tired of being scared for our boys. I’m tired of telling our young men how they can’t dress, where they can’t go and how they can’t behave.”

I’m gonna repost here what I posted on another blog. It’s a summary of all the credible evidence I’m aware of (and I’ve done a lot of digging) bearing on whether Zimmerman is likely guilty and therefore should be arrested. If anyone has contrary evidence and not just someone’s opinion and/or spin I’d genuinely like to hear it. I’m trying for the truth here. I have no vested interest in seeing Zimmerman not arrested if he’s likely lying about what happened and guilty.

************
How the media can keep spinning this in favor of Zimmerman’s being arrested is just amazing to me. Well they whipped up a furor and aren’t backing down.

The following is the sum total of the credible evidence that I’m aware of and I’ve done a lot of looking.

There was only one eye witness to the fight, John. He saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman straddling him punching him repeatedly in the face creating a bloody face, while GZ screamed repeatedly for help. John then locked his porch, ran upstairs to call 911 and while on the way heard a shot, then saw Trayvon lying to GZ’s side, face down, apparently dead. He didn’t see how the fight began. GZ says he was panicked that he’d be killed. The screams are on a 911 tape and are screams of panic.

There is no credible evidence that contradicts that. That’s what GZ said happened from the point where John saw and heard what happened onward. Further the physical evidence which the police found at the scene support this account. GZ’s face and the back of his head were bloodied. He had grass stains on his back and his back was wet (the grass was wet). Trayvon had no face or other injuries other than the gunshot wound.

A woman witness thinks she heard (not saw) things which contradict this and was quite vehement about that to CNN but she’s mistaken in her conclusions, not in what she heard. She heard the rather high pitched screams which she assumed must have been from the “little kid” Trayvon yet his father in listening to the 911 tapes said that was not the voice of his son. Two of Zimmerman’s friends one of whom is black said that was his voice. The woman witness also heard no “sounds of fighting” other than the screaming so assumed there must have not been a fight before GZ shot Trayvon. That’s also an unwarrented conclusion. The sounds of punching are a lot less loud than that of screaming.

As for how the fight began, Zimmerman says he followed Trayvon in his SUV then got out of it to talk to him. The 911 operator is not a cop and has no authority to tell Zimmerman not to follow TM. In fact he didn’t, he said “we don’t need you to do that”, I think largely out of fear that GZ might put himself in danger not knowing he was armed. TM’s girlfriends says she was on the cell phone with TM just before the fighting began. She heard TM demand of GZ “why are you following me?” to which GZ responded “what are you doing around here?” Both repeated the same questions probably in TM’s case in a more heated way. Then TM ended the cell call.

GZ says as soon as their conversation started getting heated, he turned to go back to his SUV to avoid a fight. He was then punched by TM and knocked to the ground. Then GZ gives the same story that eye witness John tells except he adds that TM repeatedly bashed his head against the sidewalk first, maybe before John started watching after he heard GZ’s screams. The blood on the back of GZ’s head backed that up.

I have seen NO credible evidence that contradicts GZ and eyewitness John’s accounts of what happened, or TM’s girlfriends bit of evidence either. Yeah she concluded that GZ “must have” started the physical fight because he ended the cell call abruptly but that’s just as consistent with him getting mega pissed about being he thinks profiled and “dissed” and punching GZ first. There’s actually no evidence that GZ punched TM at all. His face wasn’t bloodied and there was no injury other than the gunshot wound.

It’s far from clear that GZ used the word “coon” on the 911 tape. He uttered a word that’s about that long maybe, but really is indiscipherable. Could have been goon or something else. Some people esp. blacks are just reading into it what they want. There’s no record of GZ using that kind of language. Besides for something to be a hate crime there has to be an underlaying crime to begin with which was motivated by racial animus. There was no underlying crime.

To me this is an open and shut case. All the rest is spin and twisting of evidence and unwarrented conclusions. The MSM have been shockingly biased in their reporting of this, and shockingly misleading. CNN has been the worst.

If anyone has any information at odds with this that they’ve really looked into the actual primary source for, I’d really like to know it. As I said I’m looking for the truth here, and neither a high tech unjust lynching out of racial emotion, nor letting someone off who’s guilty.

It’s a dang shame that people are circulating pics to make Martin look like a thug that aren’t even him.

Which his family has conveniently had taken down so that people don’t continue to mine it for info about Trayvon and most importantly for pictures of him when he’s actually 17, rather than a little kid which is what they’ve given to the media.

Let’s just say, for the sake of an argument, that Trayvon was a thug. Don’t thugs have rights too? Isn’t it, innocent until proven guilty? If someone stalks me and confronts me with hostility, am I not allowed to defend myself, whether I am a thug or not?

Old George picked the fight with the wrong guy, then when he started to lose the fight he draws a gun. A coward’s move. Just take the beating you’ve asked for.

Thug or not, George made a mistake that will cost him everything. Even if he doesn’t get arrested, no one will ever let him live down what he has done.

I’ve got a long comment in moderation that summarizes all the actual factual witness and crime scene and relevant 911 call information in this case and what it means, that I’ve been able to discover, and I’ve done a lot of looking for as primary info as I could find.

Don’t thugs have rights too? Isn’t it, innocent until proven guilty? If someone stalks me and confronts me with hostility, am I not allowed to defend myself, whether I am a thug or not?

Old George picked the fight with the wrong guy, then when he started to lose the fight he draws a gun. A coward’s move. Just take the beating you’ve asked for.

Yes absolutely they have rights to not be wrongfully killed.

As well I haven’t called Trayvon a thug. I haven’t seen any good reliable info that he is one, though I also think there’s been about no looking except by a few conservative bloggers, in only the last few days.

However I do think the impression the Martin family and their lawyer have spun to the all to receptive to this message MSM media that Treyvon was a harmless, slight, and physically incapable of beating up Zimmerman kid like 17yo is wholly and very intentionally misleading, and responsible for much of the media and then public’s impression that Zimmerman’s self defense claim was absurd. It’s not absurd whatsoever.

I really wish abagond would take my long comment out of moderation because, believe it or not, if any of you have links to credible primary information (witnesses actual factual statements as opposed to conclusions from them, crime scene evidence, or relevant 911 call recordings) in this case that contradicts what I summarized I’d very much like to hear it and have you link me to it. I’m after the truth in this. Which means neither letting a likely guilty Zimmerman go free without trial, nor a high tech lynching of him by mob outrage and “justice”.

I’ve given links piecemeal up tread to tall the evidence I’m relying upon.

My desire is for a more rational world. To the extent that individuals and groups (such as the media) create and disseminate falsehoods, I object. Fallacies, irrationalities, and con jobs should be opposed wherever found.

You can’t desire for such if you can’t or won’t examine yourself or how “your world” operates. To do so makes you look like a hypocrite.

Get Zimmerman arrested!
He probably thought Trayvon was suspicious because he was walking on the streets really late at night or maybe scared. He should have listen to the police and not go after him like that. I really don’t know if race has anything to do with this but it better not! I believe Trayvon would have been alive today if Zimmerman wouldn;t have gone after him like that.

The altercation occurred at Zimmerman’s SUV – there was no chase and cornering by Zimmerman; there was an approach by Trayvon to Zimmerman and there were injuries suffered by Zimmerman – broken nose, wound to back of head. Eye-witness had Trayvon on top of zimmerman punching him.

Zimmerman did look for Trayvon initially but was unsuccessful.
The is an obvious case of self-defense and a lesson to all people not to follow suspicious people – go the other direction else they come after you.

Zimmerman was handcuffed and taken to the station for questioning.

Just wanted to clear a few of things up – please get the word out, we may be able to avert massive race riots.

Listen to that tape, you! The dispatcher tells him repeatedly to stay put, wait by the mail boxes, not to go after the kid, and then we hear heavy breathig of mr Zippadippa as he goes after the kid, just when the dispatcher says that he should not go after the kid and into which mr Zigledigledo answers: OK: So he says to the dispatcher that he won’t but he does. Why? Also where that gun came from? If mr Zombiedombie was just going to talk about nice things with the kid, why the Fk he was carrying gun at ready?

@brahms:

“The is an obvious case of self-defense and a lesson to all people not to follow suspicious people – go the other direction else they come after you.”

Yes, the kid tried to go the other direction once “they” came after him. He just could not escape.

@doug:

“the impression the Martin family and their lawyer have spun to the all to receptive to this message MSM media that Treyvon was a harmless”

And who he was harming? What was his crime? Being teenager? Growing up? A hoodie? Walking back to his fathers home?

This is truly crazy. This whole hoodie poop reminds me of Columbine. The school acted fast after that massacre: it forbade black coats at school at oncel!!! Seriously!!!

@abagond: This is depressing indeed. And by looks of it, unless the Feds can come up with something, mr Zimmerman won’t be arrested at all.

“@abagond: This is depressing indeed. And by looks of it, unless the Feds can come up with something, mr Zimmerman won’t be arrested at all.”

They are doing a voice analysis of the cries for help on the 911 tape. It could break the case (even though the fact that the screams stop the same split second as the gun shot should have been enough):

I’m sure you grew up in the “hood”. The same hood that apparently every single black person lives in. Yeah right, that’s about as likely as me saying I grew up on the moon. Why don’t you give us your scripted version of why your “racist” due to seeing black people in their “natural habitat” and how that relates to Trayvon Martin. We’ll drink for every time you mention crime rates!

Then how do you know what “black people are up to” if they don’t all live in the same hood? (Or if many don’t live in a hood at all)?

I’m allowed to ask questions if you fail to answer them effectively the first time. Especially if you keep repeating the same claims. I’m not too busy furthering my education to call you out on your bull when you say it.

Nah, I save my rare drink for racial bingo, and when I talk to you I always win.

And again, please enlighten us all on what your time in the “hood” has taught you about Trayvon Martin?

1. Why would anyone follow and ask a teenager walking away with a pack of skittles and an iced tea what he is doing there? Can’t he SEE that he’s just walking away? Why would he inform the cops? And after informing the cops, why would he get so worked up about Trayvon ‘getting away’ without any trouble and follow him?
All things are possible. It is possible that aliens came down in an undetectable invisible UFO at the very specific moment and wired Zimmerman’s mind so that he would shoot the kid. But what is the probability of such an event? Discounting the degree of possibility is not something a rational, materialistic person would do. So race was THE MOTIVATING FACTOR in the case. That’s the rational assumption.

2. Assuming Zimmerman’s account as true, that Trayvon beat him up, let’s focus on the ‘heated argument’ part. How did the argument get heated? The racist Zimmerman in all likelihood threw some racial slurs or other provocative words at Trayvon. Now, racial profiling is not something new in the life of a black kid. Living in a racist environment where you’re a suspect for everything about you is infuriating. If I were Trayvon I would’ve kicked Zimmerman in the face. There’s a limit to how much one can tolerate. I can call you all kinds of names, harass you, and when you get angry and react I’ll shoot you “in self-defence”. This is the logic of the reductionist closedminded degenerate.

I completely covered what Trayvon’s hardly neutral girl friend says she said to her or she heard on the cell phone conversation in my summary above. What she says he said or more importantly she says she heard in the verbal interchange between him and Zimmerman doesn’t contradict Zimmerman’s story at all, assuming she’s telling the truth. He conclusion that Zimmerman must have started the physical fight because Treyvon ended the cell phone abrubtly does, but that’s a completely illogical conclusion.

The Martin’s lawyer is good at spinning the media, and the leftist mainstream media is all too willing to be spun. It’s disgusting.

Fact of the matter is, her explanation for why Trayvon (spell his name right dammit.) responded violently (being trailed, verbally accosted and threatened) is much more logical than the one you have been touting.

Your boy Zimmerman has a criminal history involving violence.

Trayvon does not.

The reasons are stacking up.

And all you have is your Fox News horribly slanted coverage (e.g. Geraldo) to support you.

(even though the fact that the screams stop the same split second as the gun shot should have been enough)

What incredibly biased thought poop.

Zimmerman’s (and it’s well established by four witnessess, one eye and the other three hearing and familiar with both voices) that it was Zimmerman that was doing the screaming. It stopped according to the super politicized and biased Mary Cutcher because Trayvon was dead. Only it wasn’t his voice, his own father has said, and two of Zimmerman’s friends, one black, have said, it was Zimmerman’s. Ummm, do you think that just maybe Zimmerman might, just might, have stopped screaming for help after he shot his assailant dead???????

There are exactly two witnesses to the initial encounter between Trayvon: Zimmerman himself and Tray’s girlfriend. Zimmerman has an obviously strong incentive to prevaricate, as well as some education that miight enable him to do so in a way that exculpates him. Tray’s girlfriend may be biased, but she has no dog in the hunt.

As I’ve noted, it does appear that Tray put some whupass on Zimmerman. However, it doesn’t add up that Tray, or anybody, would have simply attacked Zimmerman out of the blue, unprovked. That sort of thing almost never happens. When it does, the attacker is usually bipolar or otherwise crazy.

I conclude that there was some confrontation, initiated by Zimmerman. There isn’t another rational explanation. Which leads back to my initial conclusion that Zimmerman was a wannabe cop (in fact, he had begun using a pidgin version of police jargon when calling police) who stuck his nose out too far this time.

The other piece that doesn’t add up is Zimmerman saying that Tray went for his gun. Tray was taller than Zim, and stronger, and besting Zim easily in a fight. If Tray wanted the gun, he would have had the gun. We’ll assume Zim had it in a chest/shoulder holster. He would have reached across his own chest with his right hand to unholster the weapon. If Tray was trying to get the weapon, Zim would have had to backhand the weapon up toward Tray as Tray, sitting on top of him, pushed the arm back down. Zim wasn’t man enough to accomplish this. The only way Zim gets that shot off (as I understand it, basically point blank range in the chest) is because Tray didn’t know about the gun.

I haven’t said she lied. I’ve said her testimony so far only fed through her media spinning lawyer should OF COURSE be viewed with suspicion. However what she actually said she heard doesn’t in the least disprove Zimmerman’s account of what happened. It also doesn’t in the least support her conclusion that Zimmerman “must have” started the fight.

There’s an extremely well established principle in law that “admissions against interest” (who someone is biased in favor of) should be given extra weight.

The bias on this forum is incredibly large. So far as I can tell that mirrors the black “community” in this country rather well.

As I’ve noted, it does appear that Tray put some whupass on Zimmerman. However, it doesn’t add up that Tray, or anybody, would have simply attacked Zimmerman out of the blue, unprovked. That sort of thing almost never happens. When it does, the attacker is usually bipolar or otherwise crazy.

Wrong. It happens all the time when black late teens or young adults feel they’re being dissed by who they consider whites or cops.

Look I think that Zimmerman should have known that and should have been more circumspect in his questioning of Trayvon or shouldn’t have done it at all but wait and let the cops do it. As it was Trayvon according to his gf was the first one who questioned/challenged Zimmerman, “why are you following me?” To which Zimmerman responded “what are you doing around here?” because he didn’t recognize him and would likely have being a regular volunteer neighborhood watch captain, because he was wearing a hoodie which is yeah young black gang wear and because of that more broadly popular among blacks a few wiggers, and because he seemed to be looking at (cassing?) houses and seemed according to Zimmerman to 911 to be on drugs.

According to Zimmerman, as soon as the exchange started to get heated, he turned to walk away back to his car to avoid a physical fight, despite his having a gun. There’s zero evidence to contradict that and it’s highly plausible that 5’9 obese Zimmerman would do that when facing a heating up fast 6’3″ athletic and tough black late teen. Yeah he had a gun but pulling it is always risky and always is gonna involve you in complications and exposure to legal risk, at least if you’re on the grid as he was as opposed to gang bangers, which I’m not saying Trayvon was. (Don’t know, the media hasn’t looked at all.)

Darn, it is those commies after all. They just never give up, do they? Hell bent to destory the white christian America those reds, goddammit!

“the leftist media whipped up lynch mob”

Jeez, more and more those commies who just for fun want to hang a decent white man, eh, correction: lets say hispanic just be sure, so that if he gets convicted this ones not for the white account, eh?

“the black and leftist commenters on this blog which is almost all of them.

You’re toast.”

Toast? You mean you got those crosses burning already? By goddammit!

@destructure:

“I grew up in the hood.”

I very much doubt it but hey, everything is possible, even that a red neck hillie billy racist lives in “da hood”. Yo!

“I’ve been in more than one hood and didn’t notice much difference.”

Noooooo. Really? More than in one Hood?? Why? How many Hoods? Two, three? I mean, Da Hood is full of those unintelligent creatures. What an earth a fine white specimen like you were doing in dose Da Hoods, yo??? Wassup with dat, cuz?

Darn, it is those commies after all. They just never give up, do they? Hell bent to destory the white christian America those reds, goddammit!

I’m not particularly religious.

You’re particularly fact free and ad hominem, as usual for you and most leftists. You I do consider to be a commie yes. Not most of America’s mainstream media, though they are lefties with the sole exceptions of Fox News (though they’re very PC careful) and the Wall Street Journal’s editorial page, which no one reads – not their front and other pages which when dealing with social or political issues are liberal, reflecting the large majority of the journalists in this country.

In Britain there’s the Telegraph and Daily Mail and to an extent Sun. Not sure about Britain’s non BBC TV. Some of it is owned by Murdock so maybe like Fox? Fox is pro Republican yes, but it’s also very PC on race and feminism issues. I’m not.

And there in lies your problem. Not only you do not obviously do not know what a communist is, nor what communism is, you have drawn totally wrong conclusions about my political stance. But I forgive your ignorance.

As for your “media analysis”, that also shows how big an ignoramus you are. The ones you mention as good ones are the worst right wing propaganda around these days. I mean it is so bad that is embarassing, particulary Fox.

Another thing about Fox, it makes constant mistakes, spews out outright lies and falsehoods (once when a republican congressman was caught to having homosexual relationships they had a banner below the guy saying he was a democrat for days and days).

And you propably are not aware what is going on Britain concerning mr Murdocs and his media imperium. Check it out. That is your kind of media indeed.

Wall Street Journal editor is on the record for saying that he does not believe in democracy because the peoples interests are against the interests of the big business and that plutocarcy should be the way to go. So, perhaps you are also right wing anti-democracy? That would be reasonable and would explain a lot why your are such a racist. The right wing anti-demoracy has also other names, that is guys like you. Yes. They are the fascists and the nazis.

Emotional thinking and non logical, as seems to be the usual thing in this black community.

I admit what she says she actually heard as being a statement of fact, that should be filtered through suspicion because of the obvious bias (just as Zimmerman’s statements should be) but in this case it’s actually somewhat an admission against interest. (Actually they’re between neutral and against Trayvon, if one factors in how quickly many young and big black men take heated offense to any perception of being “dissed”.)

I reject her conclusions of who “must have” started the fight because they aren’t logical, they aren’t well founded, and they don’t take into account this young black male tendency to see red very easily over perceptions of being “dissed”.

Treyvon beat the shit out of George Zimmerman because he felt dissed. He had no right to do that. As the shit was being beaten out of him (head repeatedly pounded against the sidewalk and face repeatedly punched past a broken nose, Zimmerman panicked as his screams for help demonstrate and reasonably felt either his life was in danger or at least he was in danger of very serious injury, he says the former. In those circumstances, yeah hotheaded Trayvon deserved to get shot. Let that be a lesson to hotheaded racist blacks in America everywhere.

I doubt Zimmerman meant to kill him. Having majored in criminology in a four year college he didn’t quite complete for reasons we don’t know, he would have known that shooting someone is always a big legal risk, especially if they die.

No he shouldn’t be arrested unless any of you can present evidence I haven’t already covered.

The special prosecutor has been signally that she probably won’t, in her saying this is a very difficult case to the media, etc. But that would take huge political guts. They should get them.

Seriously, I think you should thank Abagond for hosting a site where you can espouse your narrow-minded and bigoted points of view about Black people.

Contrary, to your antiquated and anachronistic stereotypes of Blacks, on the worst day, Abagond (a Black man) shows an infinitely greater amount of grace, intelligence, and wisdom in his posts then you do on your best days.

So, truly – it is time to thank him for suffering your errant and infantilistic ideas.

And there in lies your problem. Not only you do not obviously do not know what a communist is, nor what communism is, you have drawn totally wrong conclusions about my political stance. But I forgive your ignorance.

Of course I know what communism is both in completely unrealized theory ever and in actual dictatorship of the proletariat practice, up and down and left and right.

No I’m not completely sure about your total political stance but you do not seem very democratically or popularly inclined. Instead you do seem to favor a far far leftist political elite ruling over the “benighted” majority.

Seriously, I think you should thank Abagond for hosting a site where you can espouse your narrow-minded and bigoted points of view about Black people.

Contrary, to your antiquated and anachronistic stereotypes of Blacks, on the worst day, Abagond (a Black man) shows an infinitely greater amount of grace, intelligence, and wisdom in his posts then you do on your best days.

So, truly – it is time to thank him for suffering your errant and infantilistic ideas.

@Doug,I reject her conclusions of who “must have” started the fight because they aren’t logical, they aren’t well founded, and they don’t take into account this young black male tendency to see red very easily over perceptions of being “dissed”.
_

Link please, to the history of Trayvon Martin’s tendency to see red…..

(as opposed to GZ’s documented history of violence on the police and his girlfriend.)

When this case first hit the news, I witnessed outrage that a child was murdered, not just among the African-American or left-leaning communities but among the general public. I thought this was a good sign, that people were opening their eyes and could feel genuine anger at the racism that still exists in America.
Silly me. I’m clearly much to optimistic about humanity. It’s been days since the murder, and already the mainstream media is smearing the victim. People latched onto anything that could demonize Trayvon — so he was suspended from school. Like that’s a reason for him to be dead? how many kids do you know who get suspended from school?the fact that this is even being discussed is a sign of true sickness. Evil. — and accept Zimmerman’s excuse that he was acting in self defense. Trayvon is the one who was defending himself. He was stalked and confronted by a gun-wielding adult man much larger than himself! Not even a policeman, just a random psycho with a gun. Of course he fought back. Zimmerman wasn’t acting in self defense, he was the one doing the attacking.
But so many white people (and even some non-white people, yes, but it’s mainly white people) are desperate to discount any proof of racism in society, and desperate to prove that it’s “reverse racism” that’s the real problem, even when the facts are staring them in the face. It would be funny if it wasn’t so disgusting.
I try to love my fellow man but these days I’ve found myself wishing that terrible things would happen to George Zimmerman and his defenders.

Doug: You don’t understand the concept of “admission against interest”. It’s an evidentiary rule with a fairly narrow application.

Your glib conclusion that Trayvon was the initial aggressor because he’s a black male and, well, heck, we all know those black men are always flying off the handle, besides being racist, it also reveals your lack of understanding of the rules of evidence.

Your malapropisms are amusing, though. You remind me of that Damon Wayans character from “In Living Color”, self-educated ex-con who spouts made-up $10 words in a failed attempt to sound educated.

Gozu: Yes, it is unfortunate that the MSM tends to want to put the victim on trial. The reality, though, is that our society tends to do that.

Perhaps you might want to get down to MSNBC and speak to Lawrence O’Donnell. Now apparently even his Lawyer has run away from defending Zimmerman!!!

Surely this speaks volumes about the “potential self-defense” claim of George Zimmerman over his shooting of young Trayvon Martin? Which legal attorney runs away from a media publicity opportunity to defend their client???

So are your puerile attempts to trivialize honest discussion on issues of moral concern in all of these posts. I predict at some point in your life you will be confronted “first hand” with these same issues you mock and trivialize. Perhaps you would like to report back then on how hilarious you found it …

Understanding the racial component in this case is very important. George Zimmerman is half-white and half-indian(mestizo), and the victim is black. White folk don’t wanna claim Zimmerman as their own, and spanish folk downplay the whiteness of Zimmerman to excuse his obvious racial bias against black males. Both parties are in the same boat, racially speaking. Whites in the US enslaved blacks, and whites in central and south america enslaved blacks as well. In essence, two groups of whites and mixed-race folk on the spanish side are debating back and forth over who’s the least racist when both of them are in the same boat. Black people in the US have been fed a bunch of lies about how spanish culture really operates via black folk. I deal with bs from spanish folk in Miami on a daily basis, so, no one can tell me otherwise. Replacing one group of whites and other non-blacks is not fixing the problem, which is why i don’t acknowledge the hispanic/latino identity issue. I see it as a smokescreen designed to keep spanish blacks and mestizos to a lesser extent under the boot of white spaniards. The tragic death of Treyvon Martin has exposed the hypocrisy on both sides…Bottomline

So are your puerile attempts to trivialize honest discussion on issues of moral concern in all of these posts.

Bliff and his kin are morally bankrupt and mentally deficient. Only malfeasants such as Bliff, destructure, and the other cunning array of stunts could make light of this case and argue vigorously for this Zimmerman creep. The receptors in Bliff’s brain are off kilter today, take your meds! If anyone’s a racist it is you with your unemphatic half crocked lunacy.

What do you expect from a guy who says he is being “chimped” here on this blog. Yeah, go check the Open Thread. A real classy guy.

“Of course I know what communism is both in completely unrealized theory ever and in actual dictatorship of the proletariat practice, up and down and left and right.

No I’m not completely sure about your total political stance but you do not seem very democratically or popularly inclined. Instead you do seem to favor a far far leftist political elite ruling over the “benighted” majority.”

No you do not. You think so.

And where I was anti democratic? In your head. You, on the other hand, advocate racism and racial opression, right to murder underage children, etc. And neo fascism.

“Instead you do seem to favor a far far leftist political elite ruling over the “benighted” majority.””

And where did I state anything like that? Nowhere but in your own imagination.

You are, on the other hand, as seen on this topic too, very ignorant racist leaning towards fascism.

Don’t know If I’ll still show up on here as “sid” or not, but I’ve recently had a bit of a Satori about this case while mowing the lawn in regard to this case, which prompted me to write something about this. I may post it at some point. I’ve had my old blog relinked to me somehow through posting here a few times. Probably involving magic.

But enough about that. The basic gist of the rant is about reasonable doubt and the possibility of Zimmerman as a Judas Goat for all the instances where Black people don’t seem to get the same benefit of the doubt, and an admittedly idealistic hope that rather than pursuing revenge, people would instead choose justice – not only here, but in future trials as well. Letting this case remain in the minds of guilty white people who feel guilty because they know they might not give a black defendant the benefit of their own doubt.

This of course is based on the things we don’t know, and the assumption that there is enough ‘grey area’ for reasonable doubt. I can’t help wonder if this would be a real life example of Greedo shooting First (Interpert that however you wish, it works either way.)

Also, one of the things I did think about was the case of Mr. White, although I recalled the case but not the names involved. Now that I’ve been given the name, I did a little bit of digging, and it turns out Mr. White was pardoned.

Despite mounting evidence that Zimmerman is innocent, that Trayvon was not pursued or cornered but approached Z and attacked, blacks here, and across the nation, continue to call for his head. My pessimism for improving race relations and integration is again reinforced. The current black behavior is no different than when blacks cheered the OJ verdict – blacks don’t care about truth, they care about fighting their long war against the white man. There is nothing a white person can do to make them happy – I for one have given up, no more kowtowing to blacks for me – more and more whites are coming to the same conclusion.

“destructure
Apparently Trayvon had quite a little business going selling dope and stolen women’s jewelry. I swear, this just gets better and better. Fools should have just left this one alone.”

If so, glad this news has made your day. Zimmerman still needs to be arrested (as he should have that night), with adjudication done in a courtroom with lawyers for the defense and the DEAD victim.

This way, Zimmerman can tell his side on why he felt it was self defense and Trayvon can say–oh,oh, wait, Trayvon can’t say anything because he is DEAD

So we can only go by what Zimmerman said to the police, what witness saw and heard, and then the jury can listen to the character / reputation assassinations of both the LIVE defendent Zimmerman and the DEAD victim Trayvons

But the beautiful part about it all would be that “there is a trial because the police would do their JOBS and arrest Zimmerman so that he can have a jury decide his guilt or innocence”

I see, he was suspended from school! So he deserved to be followed and shot dead on his way home by someone who didn’t know he was suspended from school. It all makes sense now. And here I was mistaking justice for injustice. Little did I know Trayvon Martin had basically committed a capital offense and Zimmerman was a licensed judge, jury and executioner. Nothing to see here guys!

First, of lying, since there is no mounting evidence that Zimmerman is innocent.”

The altercation happened 10 feet from Zimmerman’s SUV – are you claiming that Zimmerman chased and corned Martin at this location?

Are you denying that Martin approached Zimmerman at his SUV? Apparently so.

The only info we have is from Zimmerman, witnesses, police, and girlfriend – look at it and show me how it leads to a guilty Zimmerman.

As far as viewing blacks as monolithic – there is only one black who I have heard or read that is supporting Z – his friend. I haven’t read what the black conservatives are saying – I’ll check it out. Black conservatives make up a tiny fraction of blacks though.

Do you have some links to blacks supporing Zimmerman?????????? Or are you just arguing to argue?

I see, he was suspended from school! So he deserved to be followed and shot dead on his way home by someone who didn’t know he was suspended from school. It all makes sense now. And here I was mistaking justice for injustice. Little did I know Trayvon Martin had basically committed a capital offense and Zimmerman was a licensed judge, jury and executioner. Nothing to see here guys!

The ONLY point that I accept from the Afro-centrists here is that Zimmerman followed Trayvon in his car for no other reason than he looked suspicious. Would he have followed an old lady? – no. Why did Trayvon look suspicious? He was wearing the garb of a gang-banger. Why? Why do innocent law-abiding blacks insist on wearing the attire of criminals? – sagging pants, hoodies, gold teeth, and various other modes of dress? Why not dress like a non-gang member? I know the answer – it would be conforming to white standards and that’s anathema to being truly black (keeping it real).

Somegy
“There are what, 30 million plus Black people in America. Shall I interview every single one of them? Are you seriously trying to say that all Black people think the same?”

I’m assuming that Thomas Sowell, Larry Elder, people like that understand the circumstances. I’m sure there are some out there but since 73% of all people questioned in a CNN poll want Zimmerman arrested, the % blacks who want him arrested is substantially higher. What percentage of blacks want Zimmerman arrested? Take a guess.

1. Since the majority of people are in leadership positions politically and economically, they could pay as the same amount they pay whites, give us a chance to build our own economies and political structures without interference from the outside, and give black people what they are long overdue in needing.

2. Whenever there’s a conversation or discussion on racism, don’t say anything if it’s not constructive or original. It is not a forum to make white people feel good.

3. Whites not only need to keep quiet, but they also need to listen. For too long, whether you agree or not, everything’s always been about what white people think, feel, say, and do when it comes to damn near anything. When blacks or POC talk, it is not “white” time.

4. Stop thinking that all black people are the same. We are not the Borg from Star Trek. We are individuals, and we should be treated as such just like you and your kind expect us to treat your people as individuals.

5. Learn the true meaning of hypocrisy.

6. Examine who you are. Your people are not above faults or sins. History has proven that.

7. Don’t think for one moment that history has nothing to do with what’s going on today. The past connects with the present which is connected to the future. Whether it’s personal history, human history, social history and any other kinds of history you can think of, they are a part of the continuum of life.

8. Don’t nitpick history. Just like how the positive moments are always highlighted, the negative moments are censored, ignored and kept hidden. If not, history will repeat itself.

9. If we talk about history, including the horrible parts, you have no authority to tell anyone not to do that.

10. Stop thinking that everything is about you and white people. You are not the only kind of people on this earth to exist let alone suffer.

11. Stop living in extreme denial that white people may have a serious problem when it comes to race. It is not by any means a “black thing”.

12. Don’t tell us how to feel, think, talk or act, especially if you can hardly see us as human beings. You have no authority on black people. None.

13. Stop only seeing the worst in us first before you see us as people.

14. Learn about black people from black people, not the TV, newspaper, movies or racist white people.

15. Stop immediately denying or discounting anything black people or POC say when it concerns them. To do so is a sign of pure arrogance.

16. Don’t expect us to “be kind” or “speak in a certain tone” when we express our true feelings regarding racism. Those feelings come from the scars of living in a racist world.

17. Stop trying to be like us. “Blackness” is not a style that passes over time.

18. Stop thinking you know more about me and my people than…me and my people especially if you’ve hardly even met any of my people.

19. Respect our lives just like you expect us to respect yours. Respect is not a one-way street.

20. Don’t ignore this list if you truly want to learn something new. If you don’t, then there’s nothing more I or anyone else can say.

Is there anything else anyone would like to add to this list. This is a spur of the moment thing.

@ SomeGuy
“Second, you treat Blacks as a monolithic entity – a gestalt. When Blacks treat Whites this way, you complain. So don’t do it to Blacks and expect different results.” YES, co-sign-Sweet Perfection!

Brahms clings 24/7 to his lunatic theory that Blacks are Borgs. If he lets it go, every single thought, attitude, and belief he cherishes dissipates along with his identity.

@BrothaWolf, Demeera, SomeGuy, Kwamla, Origin, Truthbetold, Leigh, JT, Abagond and so many others who consistenly hold a mirror to their hypocrisy:

One more thing. I don’t expect you to take in the list I made for your response because at the end of the day you, Doug1, destructure, Bliff and all those merry men of race realism will continue to think what you want to think.

However, the same applies to me and Abagond, Someguy, JT, Sam, Matari, Demerera, Bulanik, Mira, Truthbetold, Ace, Herneith, Leigh and anyone else here. We are concerned that a young man was killed by a vigilante, and although that doesn’t matter to you, you have no right to tell us that it shouldn’t matter to us either.

Regardless of his trouble at school, the fact of the matter is that he was murdered just like numerous other black children across this country, and we are tired of it no matter who the murderers are. You may not see it, but then again, if you follow the news, you won’t see it. Why? Because it isn’t “sensational” enough to be reported. Plus, you may not have noticed, purposely or otherwise, but black communities are working overtime to stop the violence. What are you guys doing to help instead of sitting in front of a computer criticizing us on how we feel about the latest murder?

In the end you don’t care about black people and that’s the truth. You may not have said it in so many words (yet), but if you cared about the truth, you would come right out, say it, and be done with it instead of tap dancing around the obvious.

So, go ahead and continue trolling as much as you want until you either get bored and quit or end up kicked out of here. It’s your choice. For right now, I’m going to continue to stick to my beliefs no matter how much it annoys you.

1. don’t understand the statment
2. makes no sense – I will speak my mind regardless of your personal desires.
3. makes no sense – so I should be quiet, interesting.
4. it is you who cites the shared trauma of slavery not me – non-white problem
5. expound please
6. done everyday in the media and textbooks – non-issue
7. not something whites can affect – irrelevant
8. history texts are anti-white – done
9. done – never happens anyway
10. I should suffer because others do? Illogical.
11. Met only one in my entire life – false statement.
12. White people are telling you how to think? To your face? Really?
13.14. I grew up with blacks in majority black school and neighborhood – I know how you feel about whites. I know about “the talk” parents have with their black kids – the world will treat you unfairly etc. – world = white.
15. I don’t – false statement
16. There is very little white-black racism – you are taught to see racism everywhere.
17. only wiggers try to act black – another false statement
18. “people” -I thought I wasn’t supposed to view blacks as monolithic – this is confusing
19. whites do not show you disrespect – you may be confusing disrespect with fear.
20. read it

4. Stop thinking that all black people are the same. We are not the Borg from Star Trek. We are individuals, and we should be treated as such just like you and your kind expect us to treat your people as individuals.

compared with

16. Don’t expect us to “be kind” or “speak in a certain tone” when we express our true feelings regarding racism. Those feelings come from the scars of living in a racist world.

17. Stop trying to be like us. “Blackness” is not a style that passes over time.

18. Stop thinking you know more about me and my people than…me and my people especially if you’ve hardly even met any of my people.

When you say that you are part of a “people”; when you claim that all of your “people” share the same traumas; when you claim that your “people” share an identity – that is a centric possition not an individualist one.

Blacks overwelming vote as a block; whites do not – if you’d like statistical evidence.

16. Each Black individual has a different thought/feeling associated with the subject of racism. Don’t expect them to respond in a uniform manner, and more likely, expect that each individual has their own trauma associated with racists.

17. Don’t treat Black individuals like they are a part of that commercial system that white males often want to buy from and emulate. Blacks are not part of a fad nor a trend nor something to gain credibility nor your masculinity. If you think that Black culture is about hiphop stereotypes, then what you think Black culture is about and what Blackness is actually about are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT things.

18. You need to interact with Black individuals to actually understand the rich culture, history, literature, society etc. If you have not interacted with Black individuals then don’t expect to be able to generalize from the media’s representations of them nor a very small sample that you may have had brief interactions with. Don’t reduce an individual onto a media portrayal or your own distorted views. Give them a chance to be themselves and you will be surprised everytime because just like with Whites you get something new with each individual.

Please correct me where I’m wrong, brothawolf. It was straightforward for me but clearly not for everyone because they clearly don’t have the same frame of reference.

“While simultaneously often claiming when it suits their purpose that “race does not exist”, “race isn’t a biological [or genetic] reality”, and “race is just a social construct”. All crap.

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.

-U.S. Department of Energy Office of Science, Office of Biological and Environmental Research, Human Genome Program

16. “Each Black individual has a different thought/feeling associated with the subject of racism. Don’t expect them to respond in a uniform manner, and more likely, expect that each individual has their own trauma associated with racists.”

Translation – all blacks experience racism – monolithic.

17. Don’t treat Black individuals like they are a part of that commercial system that white males often want to buy from and emulate. Blacks are not part of a fad nor a trend nor something to gain credibility nor your masculinity. If you think that Black culture is about hiphop stereotypes, then what you think Black culture is about and what Blackness is actually about are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT things.

Translation – there is such a thing as “blackness” – monolithic.

18. You need to interact with Black individuals to actually understand the rich culture, history, literature, society etc. If you have not interacted with Black individuals then don’t expect to be able to generalize from the media’s representations of them nor a very small sample that you may have had brief interactions with. Don’t reduce an individual onto a media portrayal or your own distorted views. Give them a chance to be themselves and you will be surprised everytime because just like with Whites you get something new with each individual.

That is not representative of what he wrote. He implied that blacks were his people – are blacks individuals or a people? You cannot have it both ways.

People – A body of persons sharing a common religion, culture, language, or inherited condition of life.

No quite a few more, genius. 37 million or so using the 2010 census percentage of black Americans as about 12% and the number of Americans today or those living here anyway as about 310 million. Of whom about 20 million are probably illegal immigrants, most of whom should be deported unless they’re super great beneficial in some way.

Blacks should be in favor of this most of all because they take black jobs, but aren’t because upper quarter blacks are big into political battles with whites, and gaining various kinds of white peace making tribute. I say screw peace, and turn machine go

I truly fear race riots are coming because of the irresponsible media’s portrayal of this case. Zimmerman will not be indicted. With so many whites now being armed – this could be very bad.

“Take a look over the past few years and we begin to see a pattern of not only acceptance of racism against non-Blacks, but an encouragement born out of a refusal to act upon it as well. In 2011, large mobs of Blacks attacked unsuspecting Whites at the Wisconsin State Fair while making racist statements. In May 2010 a 90 pound White girl was attacked by a mob of Blacks in Detroit, Michigan. In Chicago, in June 2011, a large mob of Blacks began assaulting Whites, as well as one visiting Japanese doctor. That same month another all-Black mob began attacking Whites in Philadelphia. One year previous, in February 2010, what was called a “flash mob” consisting of nothing but Blacks began attacking Whites. October 2011 in Peoria, Illinois a Black mob attacked a White Meals on Wheels driver and another woman. In Ohio, July 2009, the same thing with a White family beaten by a Black mob shouting “This is OUR world!” September 2011, again in Philadelphia, an all Black mob kicks their way into a White family’s home and attacks while screaming “We got you, you White mother f***er!” And of course, just this past month the group of Black teens who doused a 13 year old White child with gasoline and set him on fire while telling him “This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, White boy.””

I’m curious about one thing you wrote though, and help me out if you can. You mentioned something about illegals taking “Black jobs”. Can you please clarify what a “Black job” is? I mean, if America is a land of equality oppurtunity, aren’t all jobs considered “Black jobs”?

WOW!
That list should be put on ALL blogs. Serious stuff, all true.
Copy it and add it to your blog.

Great work.

But…I have to add that due to my increasing contempt of most white Americans, (yes I openly admit this, why lie?), most will laugh at your astute insight. It takes a mature person to list, FAIRLY, what we want from society.
I’ve given up all hope on change from them. The disease has spread from generation to generation, like alcoholism, and now it’s so far beyond control, all they do is binge drink.

I feel that Zimmerman, with his ex-judge daddy, will walk away a free man.
Evidence was lost when he was permited to go home with his blood and grass stained clothing. A purposeful botch-job!

Now the KKK is handing out flyers…
Prepare for a riot. Or worse.
When God makes his final judgement, may he have mercy on their souls.

1. don’t understand the statment
2. makes no sense – I will speak my mind regardless of your personal desires.
3. makes no sense – so I should be quiet, interesting.
4. it is you who cites the shared trauma of slavery not me – non-white problem
5. expound please
6. done everyday in the media and textbooks – non-issue
7. not something whites can affect – irrelevant
8. history texts are anti-white – done
9. done – never happens anyway
10. I should suffer because others do? Illogical.
11. Met only one in my entire life – false statement.
12. White people are telling you how to think? To your face? Really?
13.14. I grew up with blacks in majority black school and neighborhood – I know how you feel about whites. I know about “the talk” parents have with their black kids – the world will treat you unfairly etc. – world = white.
15. I don’t – false statement
16. There is very little white-black racism – you are taught to see racism everywhere.
17. only wiggers try to act black – another false statement
18. “people” -I thought I wasn’t supposed to view blacks as monolithic – this is confusing
19. whites do not show you disrespect – you may be confusing disrespect with fear.
20. read it

-Brahms

I read brothawolf’s slop and the only thing I got out of it was “Blacks are good, whites are bad. Shut up and do what we say.”

-Destructure

Wow. Just wow. If there are examples of angry white men, you guys fit that mold perfectly. But if you decide to be more angry at the fact that black people are not what you WANT them to be than this decimation of this mortal coil that is white supremacy, so be it.

It’s obvious you don’t want to be human beings because that would mean having a heart, a mind, and a soul. No. You prefer to be white than human.

Even though we can’t change your views, you damn sure can’t change ours especially with your typical whiteness. So, I guess we are at an impasse at this argument of morals and logic.

Blacks should be in favor of this most of all because they take black jobs, but aren’t because upper quarter blacks are big into political battles with whites, and gaining various kinds of white peace making tribute. I say screw peace, and turn machine go.

What the hell are black jobs and what does this have to do with this post?

“It’s obvious you don’t want to be human beings because that would mean having a heart, a mind, and a soul. No. You prefer to be white than human. “

That comment says more about you than it does about me.

“To me it’s spilled milk. To you it’s a plea for survival.”

You’re on here every day whining and crying about the almighty white man with his boot on your neck. And now you’re going to come up with some junk like that. Let me clue you in — I’m not worried about you. I told you, I’m here for my own amusement.

Of course. It’s me who has the problem and never you, the one who’s here for amusement. Seriously man, you need Jesus, Prozac, or something. lol

You’re on here every day whining and crying about the almighty white man with his boot on your neck. And now you’re going to come up with some junk like that. Let me clue you in — I’m not worried about you. I told you, I’m here for my own amusement.

That’s the difference between you and I. You’re here for amusement. I’m here for information and incite. But hey, do what works for you.

All those mob attacks you described happened in the past. Why don’t you just get over it, already? I mean that happened a while a ago. Why don’t you man up, move on, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and better your lives instead of whining about what happened in the past.

You know what the worst part about all of this is? I feel drained after dealing with these “psychic vampires”(as some people call them). They literally make me tired. It’s my own fault for giving away my energy so freely. I must remember not to concern myself with the unworthy and focus on the topics at hand. After all, as I have previously stated, these people are too static to change. Five years from now, ten years from now and on their deathbeds, they’ll still be the same old bigots they are now.

They do not think for themselves. Instead, they are just a mouthpiece for philosophy that encourages hatred and stagnation, while slowing positive change and limiting true potential. Whether they do it through violence or words, they need a world where people of color live under their boots. For every one George Zimmerman, there are many more who hide behind screen names and pleasantries.

They’re like the weeds that clog up a pretty garden.

You can’t just sit there and hope they blend in with the other plants, or else they will systematically kill your garden, you need to get your hands dirty and pull them out and make sure they cannot grow back.

They just released a video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station. When he gets out of the squad car he clearly has no bruises, no grass stains, no bloody clothes, or a broken nose. Nor does he have any bandages on his head, despite the fact that they police officials said he had prior medical treatment.

Heh heh, now lets see what commies came up with that video since it can not be true according destructure, dougie, randy, brahms and other racists here who have been touting how poor Zimmerman was smashed and his nose broken and he was all bloodied and broken and terrorized and attacked and all kinds of bodily harm.

Notice that these guys never answer to my simple question: how many broken bones mr Zimmerman had in his body and was his smashed skull fractured?

What I meant by “black jobs” is that jobs blacks tended to have much more before the illegal Mexican invasion that Hispanics, and so on. Of course some blacks have jobs at almost all levels of the workforce. Never said otherwise.

The tendency among you blacks to take offense is extreme.

Blacks should really be in be in favor of deporting illegal immigrants, the vat majority of which are Hispanic.

Hey I don’t necessarily dislike Hispanics. I think that while not on average but not so rarely, there are a lot of hot Hispanic girls many of whom tend to favor white guys of any account and umph. Yeah and I take advatage of that.

But that’s not the mass phenomenon, which won’t help this country. It will burden it.

If I could trade the Hispanic lower class for the black I would but I can’t,and remain humaine, which i am determined to do.

there are some evil people commenting on here. noone has the facts yet. as far as i can tell, there are only 3 credible witnesses…the 2 ladies that heard the gun shot and the kids girlfriend. this john guy….whats he hiding/waiting for?? does he need time to be coached?? they should have arrested zimmerman and held him without bail until all the facts were in. i completely agree with the “stand your ground” law, i know if someone physically attacks me and i have a gun, i’m gonna shoot them. the burden of proof, i believe, is still on zimmerman. I think he should have to prove his life was threatened, and as for his injuries, well….he could have done that to hisself. i know someone that broke their nose(accidentally) walking into a sliding glass door, so i know it doesnt take much to accomplish that. (and no it wasnt me 🙂 )

anyone that just wants to murder could go to florida, make sure noone else is looking, and shoot someone, slam their face into a car/streetpole..bang their head on the sidewalk and call it self defense. oh what a world.

“What I meant by “black jobs” is that jobs blacks tended to have much more before the illegal Mexican invasion that Hispanics, and so on. Of course some blacks have jobs at almost all levels of the workforce. Never said otherwise.

The tendency among you blacks to take offense is extreme.”

”
”
”

@ Doug1

Forgive me if i am mistaken but this is directed to me. If not then disregard this message.

I was responding to your post which asked abagond about whether his previous options covered all options in his poll (whether the last options were necessary). I am arguing that, yes, they are necessary because not everyone identifies themself through some might consider antiquated markers like skin color or nationality.

Lastly, like i have said a hundred times: i am white so you can leave out the standard fare: ” You Blacks are this and that.” I guess in your language, you can call me a lefty, liberal, progressive. Take your pick.

Hey, don’t blame me if I jump at the sound of firecrackers. I’m shell shocked.

Hey I don’t necessarily dislike Hispanics. I think that while not on average but not so rarely, there are a lot of hot Hispanic girls many of whom tend to favor white guys of any account and umph. Yeah and I take advatage of that.

Classy, bro. Real classy.

If I could trade the Hispanic lower class for the black I would but I can’t,and remain humaine, which i am determined to do.

It was a non close up low resolution video as presented on the web. A blow up still from the video of the back of Zimmerman’s head shows a large gash, as I posted above.

Your ignoring of that in your most recent comment is pure dishonesty as are a whole lot of your comments.”

Sorry, pal, but those videos shot by two separate surveillance cameras at the police station shows clearly that you are just a racist liar. That man, like I explained before, shows none of the injuries he according to you and your nut racist friends here have claimed he sustained. None. His clothes are not covered with blood as they should have been if his nose was broken. I have seen many broken noses, my own was broken once at hockey rink, so I know that there is no bloodless broken nose.

This guy is normal young man, not the obese cripple you guys falsely tried to portray him. He is well and pretty much uninjured. He is very relaxed and doing just fine. He is not somebody whose head was smahed on concrete. I know. My head was hit with a bench and I have seen people hitting their heads on concrete and asphalt.

You know as well as I that if your head is smashed against concrete many times, you will no walk. You will have a bit more damage than just one “large gahs” in your head. Also isn’t it strnage how this “large gash” is not bleeding at all and how it does not need any bandages or even a tape to stop it bleeding? I have seen dozens of cuts in the heads, including my own, and I know that even a small cut will bleed a lot. This man has no blood anywhere.

Truth is, Dougie, you are a racist liar. Thats it. You have been doing it from the start of this. Now you got caught. That is all. Take it like a man you claim to be.

Sorry, pal, but those videos shot by two separate surveillance cameras at the police station shows clearly that you are just a racist liar. That man, like I explained before, shows none of the injuries he according to you and your nut racist friends here have claimed he sustained. None.

Totally wrong. That video was from a wide angle perspective with Zimmerman’s head very small in it. Buises usually don’t show up until hours later, sometimes the next day. EMT’s were called to the scene and after attempting to resuscitate Trayvon treated and cleaned up Zimmerman.

The Daily Caller has enhanced a still from the Zimmerman arrest video to show the long laceration on the back of Zimmerman’s head.

Police said Zimmerman had a bloody back of his head, a bloody nose, and a bloody lip. That blood can be cleaned up. Two eyewitnesses saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman pinning him to the ground, bashing his head against the pavement and repeatedly punching him in the face. No eyewitness of the actual fight contradicts that. One ear witness who didn’t see the fight only Zimmerman standing over Trayvon after he was dead does but only by jumping to unwarrented conclusions. She says the voice screaming for help “had to be” that of the “little kid” Trayvon because it ended right after the gunshot and it was somewhat high pitched. However Travon’s father said after he first listened to 911 tapes said that wasn’t the voice of his son, and Zimmerman would have stop screaming as soon has Trayvon was shot and no longer hitting him. She’s also obviously very prejudiced against Zimmerman and for Trayvon if you see clips of her interviews well after the night of the shooting with all the media spin and pictures of “little kid” Trayvon

As for his clothing not appearing bloody in the video what on earth is your point?? It’s much more surprising that blood from Trayvon wasn’t all over this clothing that blood from his head wasn’t, though it’s certainly possible in that it appears Trayvon slumped off to the side of Zimmerman and was face down in the grass. We know they were struggling so the exact forces going on at the time of the gunshot isn’t know.

We know bloody damn well that Trayvon was shot dead in close range in the chest. Eyewitnesses saw it.

(former) Chief Lee’s response
Why was George Zimmerman not arrested the night of the shooting?

“When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr.
Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the timewas supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time. Additionally, when any police officer makes an arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and inbad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.”

And yet, the police at the scene has it listed as Homicide – Manslaughter in their initial report.

Thank you for the information and the link. It is not clear to me how an attorney can prevent the carriage of legal procedure. This is a highly suspicious case that I am sure will reveal much about the inner workings of systemic racism for future generations for those that are not yet aware of it.

And one sad part about this is that if it wasn’t so obvious (Trayvon wasn’t just a baby) you would have had the Doug1 spin of things dominating the narrative here as it has done so many times before:

Black male is dangerous and White man has to do whatever he has to do to stop him.

as far as i can tell, there are only 3 credible witnesses…the 2 ladies that heard the gun shot and the kids girlfriend. this john guy….whats he hiding/waiting for?? does he need time to be coached??

That’s ridiculous. John was the only eyewitness that saw much of the fight. He came forward right away to the police and early on to the Orlando Sentinel. He saw Trayvon on top on Zimmerman in a red sweater, straddling him and knocking his head against the cement sidewalk and punching him in the face repeatedly while John saw Zimmerman was screaming help repeatedly. He then locked his front porch said he was calling 911 and ran upstairs to do so and on the way heard the gunshot. He doesn’t want his last name publicized because those supporting the self defense side of this were being given a very hard time by the media initially and still in many quarters, and by blacks. It’s obvious why he wouldn’t want his last name of face out there.

There was a thirteen year old boy who saw some of it and saw one man on top of another on the ground but his testimony but seems to be further away and didn’t really make out much of who was doing what to whom.

John’s statements were consistent with what Zimmerman said happened, though he didn’t see the start of the fight. The physical evidence police found at the scene was consistent with a fight having taken place. Zimmerman had a bloodied nose, cut lip and bloody back of his head, and his back was wet and had lots of grass on it, consistent having be pinned down partly on the grass. Also police or the coroner found that the gunshot had occurred at very close range.

The two women saw nothing until well after the gunshot, since they were kept on the phone a while by 911. They heard whining which they assumed “must be” coming from the “little kid” since it stopped right after the gunshot and was rather high pitched. Zimmerman would also of course stop shouting for help once Trayvon was no longer beating him. They also didn’t heard sounds of fighting so they were adamant in an interview with Anderson Cooper well after the Trayvon lawyer and media whipped up outrage that no fighting at taken place first and that racist Zimmerman had simply killed Trayvon in cold blood. Sounds of punching are a lot less loud than those of scream for help. They were obviously very biased but anyway what they actually heard as opposed to jumped to conclusions about is not inconsistent with Zimmerman’s or John’s story.

The same is true of what Trayvon’s clearly biased girlfriend said about her cell phone call with Trayvon up until they first started talking. She says Trayvon asked “why are you following me?” to which Zimmerman she says responded “what are you doing around here?”. She then thought she heard Trayvon’s earpiece come off and the call was abruptly ended. She’s convinced that “must mean” that Zimmerman punched Trayvon first. But if Trayvon was about to sucker punch Zimmerman he’d likely end the call and pocket his phone first. If Zimmerman had sucker punched Trayvon he probably would have dropped or tossed to the side his phone to be able to fight back right away and the Trayvon’s gf likely would have been able to hear the fight. She does of course have a strong reason to be biased just as Zimmerman’s father does.

And one sad part about this is that if it wasn’t so obvious (Trayvon wasn’t just a baby) you would have had the Doug1 spin of things dominating the narrative here as it has done so many times before:

Black male is dangerous and White man has to do whatever he has to do to stop him.

Except I’ve never said that or characterized this case that way.

Zimmerman had absolutely no right to shoot Trayvon because he thought he looked or acted dangerous.

He shot him because Trayvon was on top of Trayvon straddling him and repeatedly pounding his head onto the cement sidewalk despite Zimmerman’s screaming of help and repeatedly punching his nose and breaking it, causing Zimmerman to fear for his life. He especially feared for his life when his gun became visible during their struggle and Trayvon started reaching for it, his brother and attorney have both now said.

First of all it’s a matter of semantics that Zimmerman wasn’t arrested that night. He was disarmed at gunpoint, handcuffed and brought back to the police station for questioning which went on from about 7:30pm until 3am.

They checked further with witnesses and spoke to an attorney in the DA’s office about the evidence they had to that point. Then they decided to release him for now on that date and further investigate. When they didn’t charge him that night they didn’t classify their detaining him for questioning as having arrested him. He was arrested in most people’s understanding of that term, but no hasn’t been charged as of yet.

You are nothing but an emotionalist far leftist propagandist. Objective truth means nothing to you. I’m sure you consider objective truth to be bourgeois truth, meaning for Marxist leftists “false truth” because it doesn’t reliably support radical equalist revolution, (lead by an as it happens never going equal leftist intellectual elite) in your and their imagination, and to a good degree the case in the communist countries. Only it quickly became intellectual elites mixed with thuggish secret police ones and military ones. Sam’s world.

Your calling me racist because I think the bulk of the evidence having looked into it a lot is on Zimmerman’s side as to whether it was self defense or not, is extremist, and totally unwarranted.

There’s scant impulse for racial fairness on this site that I’ve ever see by either the blogger or the commentariat. However abagond does allow free debate among those opposed to his predominant messages (I don’t disagree with a good number of his posts, and with those I don’t usually comment). Well he allows it with a formerly very strict view as to what was off topic, such as defending oneself from a comments attack that was itself off topic, but seems to have relaxed that, for which I commend abagond. Who I think is smart. Pretty damn racialist, but smart.

Oh boy, it is the communists again! Don’t you get tired of playing that Ole Tune? I mean, USSR collapsed 20 years ago. Communism is gone. You and guys like you are the only ones left who still sing and dance to that old tune.

I understand that in these more civilized days it is hard for a coward like yourself to stand up like a man and take responsibility and say out loudly and proudly: I AM A RACIST AND PROUD OF IT! It takes balls and kind of courage which you obviously do not posses. That is why you hide under the rocks of pseudo impartiality and “race realism” and some other lame excuse like a small worm.

YOU call me a leftist, YOU call me a communist. Well, I am not. But YOU call me such just because you have nothing else to bring up anymore other than some 70 old ghost stories and grand daddys scares.

We have a white guy who stalked a black kid who was not commiting any crime, who had done nothing wrong, a white guy who acted against the very manual of the watch he claimed to present, acted agaist the advice of the dispatcher, shoot the innocent kid dead, was not injured as badly as you liars claimed, was not the morbidly obese slob you guys claimed him to be, was let loose by the cops and is supported and cheered on by racists like you. These are the facts.

We have police raports, video, sound tapes which all point to one conclusion: this guy killed the kid. Period. You claim it was self defence and have made all kinds of excuses for it, excuses which have been desrtoyed one by one as the real evidence has been revealed. There is nothing you guys claimed earlier. Period. The only reason you guys support this murderer is because he killed a N****r and you like it.

All your posts here as well as theirs show that you are convicned that it is ok and legal to shoot and kill N****rs. Period. That is your message, that is the beat you keep drumming here.

What I don’t understand is this: Why not be open about it? Why not say it? Why do you hide behind the skirts of words? Be a man. Once.

I’ve never claimed that George Zimmerman wasn’t capable of being violent against Trayvon Martin. However it must be said that GZ has zero of a conviction record. I have said that Trayvon was capable also of being violent against GZ.

So far there is very good evidence that there was a physical fight between the two and that Trayvon was beating Zimmerman up, before the gunshot ending Trayvon’s life. There is no compelling evidence as to who started it.

There are indications however.

I think those indications vastly more point to Trayvon’s starting it due to feeling pissed at dissed due to GZ’s profiling him, following him, and maybe questioning him in a non aggressive manner as his gf claims as per cell convo at the time, than the other way around.

Why would Zimmerman start off hitting Trayvon?? He wasn’t mad much less furious at him, he was suspicious, maybe yes partially for racial reasons (and crime stats) but so what? He knew the cops would soon come because he called them to. If he was found prevailing on Trayvon when they came he’d be in a world of legal hurt, which having majored in criminology he’d know. If he was losing Trayvon might well discover his gun in the struggle which would also not be exactly good for Zimmerman. There was zero reason for him to hit Trayvon, and he doesn’t seem to be really dumb, though no rocket scientist either.

The extent to which you have wedded yourself to Zimmerman’s innocence belies a franticness which i think you aren’t even addressing. You said in an earlier post that if there were another eyewitness that discounted what the first eyewitness said that you would reexamine the facts. You haven’t done that.

Did someone that you idolize (e.g. a father figure) experience a trauma with a Black person where they felt to be the victim?

@ Truthbetold,

It is a matter of time and introspection for Doug. I think he will come. He just needs some coaxing.

Doug, Randy and Spliff all have had “experiences” where they’ve been let go from a job, beaten up in primary school, told no by a woman or had a neighbor with a better, bigger, prettier house, and I’m guessing a black person was somehow involved.

Doug is becoming delusional. But it is not surprising since he has always twisted facts to fit his conclusions ever since he stepped foot here. Zimmerman is just the latest example.

Doug, in effect, is disagreeing with the lead homicide detective and siding with the state attorney. But the state attorney probably has political reasons to keep Zimmerman out of court, not ones based on the facts of the case. So Doug is trying to square the circle to save the face of white authority as something just and good. Because he is emotionally invested in the rightness and goodness of White America. That is how I read it.

Actually I’ve never had a violent encounter with a black person, whether I won or lost. I’m a tail end of it baby boomer. I was raised SWPL all the way in exurban NY by moderately liberal white parents who were FDR and JFK fans all the way, but not radicals. We had a black housekeeper after awhile about my mother’s age whom my mother kind of adopted and helped in various ways beyond paying her well. I liked her. We got on well. Yes it was probably kind of benevolently condescending or that could be claimed. Noblese oblige sort of thing, lite.

I went to private school all through school, with almost no blacks until college. Well a few in prep school but they were all oreos, or the ones I got to know at all were and non acted up big. At college (Stanford, you may have heard of it) blacks self segregated to a huge degree. Same was true in my top five law school (that’s my limit of self identification), so have had about no conflict with blacks. I did have an expensive bicycle stolen at college (Stanford has a pretty big campus and limited parking in most places so everyone gets around by bicycles between classes), and suspected blacks yes, but from outside the Uni most likely, but suspected doesn’t mean sure. It did feel like a personal violation though.

Yes I’ve worked with some blacks since (left law for finance not too long after graduating), but have never in my personal life met a black person I thought was nearly as smart as me. They must exist, I don’t pin the white bell curve; I just haven’t met them or encountered them in class in college or law school.

My moving to the race realist and HBD stance has been a gradual weaning of myself and de propagandizing myself from PC. It’s always been that that I’ve been pissed at and dissilusioned with, not blacks themselves or women (yes I’ve become thoroughly anti-feminist, aside from the most basic feminism.) I’m also in favor of basic civil rights, but not e.g. section 8 housing putting welfare blacks in middle class white communities that have moved at considerable expense to get away from them and their school and other disfunction.

I don’t want to hurt blacks with social policy but I also don’t want to unreasonably burden whites to help blacks with it either, such as with section 8.

Oh and I’m 6’3 and athletic and muscular, have worked out with weights since middle school, so that is also part of my never having been punked by blacks too I suppose. But mostly being wary and not that much low level exposure to them.

Doug1 (Doug1111 when wordpress compels me recently to sign into my dummy wordpress account which I opened for a reason I don’t remember) must be delusional, when he disagrees with the very large black and far leftist supporters around here emotional consensus on something.

Even if true what race was he? Yes I do think blacks are FAR less objective than whites on black vs. white crime issues, on average. Esp. if a national “Great White Defendant” storm begins.

As well I really think it’s wrong, very wrong for law enforcement to charge and prosecute someone if they thing it’s conceivable he committed a crime, but less likely than not, when conviction requires a beyond a reasonable doubt standard of proof.

The reason why is that just trying someone for a serious crime imposes a very serious fine upon them, and a huge burden on their ability to gainfully work. Sure that should nonetheless be done to someone the state believes is very probably guilty, in the interest of justice, but not someone who is only conceivably gonna be found guilty, or the black public would feel way better if at least tried.

Did you remember to take your Prozac, Zanax, Lithium smoothie today? Your voice is the loudest here. He-hawing about facts and evidence. Not once have to expressed human feelings for this boy.
That, my race-realist friend, speaks volumes about your character.
Get Randy’s and Spliff’s phone number. I hear Walmart has a sale on white sheets.

Why are you so invested in this case?
Is it because you desperately want to see a man walk away scott-free for killing a black boy? Do you project yourself in Zimmermans shoes and get a jolly out of imagining that YOU are the shooter?

You know Doug, the difference between you and the rest of us here is, we acknowledge that society has lied to, messed with, exploited and toyed with us. And we have the rage, sadness, pity, esteem(low or high) to contend with.

As well I really think it’s wrong, very wrong for law enforcement to charge and prosecute someone if they thing it’s conceivable he committed a crime, but less likely than not, when conviction requires a beyond a reasonable doubt standard of proof.

I agree. And so do the courts. Wilfong of Duke lacrosse fame was disbarred and imprisoned for doing that. You can’t arrest or try someone without probable cause.

Yes I do think blacks are FAR less objective than whites on black vs. white crime issues

That’s no joke. The bigots of color (BoC) on this blog prove that every time they open their mouths.

Why, thank you for opening up. Kinda. Douglas, what happened to you to make you ” pissed at and dissilusioned ” ?

Why turn to the fallacy of race realism a.k.a. coded racism?
There must have been a moment, experience, pain, hurt, disappointment when you “turned over to the dark side”.

Doug, no foolishness now, just straight talk between you and I…
I know you are learned. Very much so. But you are not smart.
Being smart is admitting that you know even less than you thought you did. Being smart is realizing that we, humans, have been indoctrinated to believing lies, propaganda, half-truths about the world, about each other, about ourselves and trying to un-learn the bullshit.

I never pretended with you, or with anyone else here to be someone I’m not. I say EXACTLY what’s on my mind. The good, the forgiving, the religious and the bloody awful.

I’m not preaching about realism when I mean racism.
Honestly, the only problem I have with you is your falseness. Bliff comes here for amusement. Destructure for trolling. And Randy, Randy isn’t fooling anyone. He’s colder and more brutal than he realizes. He hides it well with his college-level vocabulary.

I feel that you aren’t being truthful with us.
You hate us.
For being black. And if you could…you’d destroy us all.

I and other coloureds here speak the hurtful truth, the brutal truth, the teary-eyed truth about our lives, jobs, families, what makes us tick, we ask for advise, prayers, help, joke around, flirt and ultimately try to heal.

As I figured, Zimmerman was not being fully honest……Read for yourself…

It may well turn out to be Tray’s voice rather than Zman’s. But that contradicts at least two witnesses who claimed it was Zman’s voice. Without discounting the opinion of this voice technician, I’d like to see two things before I accept it as fact. First, I’d like to see the tape compared to a sample of tray’s voice. And, second, I would like to see if any voice technicians will argue that its Zman’s voice after all.

Yes I’ve worked with some blacks since (left law for finance not too long after graduating), but have never in my personal life met a black person I thought was nearly as smart as me. They must exist, I don’t pin the white bell curve; I just haven’t met them or encountered them in class in college or law school.

There were two voice technicians, Tom Owen “a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library’s Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis” and Ed Primeau “a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert”. Two different techniques, same conclusion. Owen, like you, doesn’t conclude it is Martin since he has no sample but “can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it’s not Zimmerman”. Primeau ,on the other hand, believes it is Trayvon.

“I believe that’s Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt,” Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. “That’s a young man screaming.”

I can understand wanting a thorough test since that would only be fair. Unfortunately, there may be no sample of Martin’s voice available. Also, since Owen is an expert in his field and Primeau is also then it may actually discourage other checks since those two know what they are doing. It would be interesting to find another qualified expert finding a different conclusion but I don’t believe that is likely to happen.

I and other coloureds here speak the hurtful truth, the brutal truth, the teary-eyed truth about our lives, jobs, families, what makes us tick, we ask for advise, prayers, help, joke around, flirt and ultimately try to heal.

I realize that. But this case has seen a lot of claims made (on both sides) that have since been disproven or at least called into question. For example, people were claiming tray was 140 and Zman was 240. But it turns out tray was 160 and Zman is 170. That’s one of the reasons I’ve been skeptical of new claims. In this case, two eyewitnesses have said it was Zman’s voice. I’m inclined to give more weight to the technicians than the eyewitnesses. But since they contradict one another I’d like to give it a couple of days to see if anyone else shows up to dispute the technician’s results. Also, one of the technicians cited in that article had previously listed his reasons for questioning the results of any voice analysis. Here’s the article if you’re interested.

I read it and its makes since to not only assume that the voice analysis is the key to solving the case. At first I was confused until I realized that your posted article is older (several days) since Primeau has gotten slightly involved in the case by analyzing the voice in the 911 call. But it is also important to not put complete faith in witness testimony either. As time pass people tend to restructure their memories of an event and a statement may change. I only pointed out the article as another possibility that Zimmerman was being dishonest. When forensics fully comes out then it can help the case further because that evidence will be one of the most telling.

But it is also important to not put complete faith in witness testimony either. As time pass people tend to restructure their memories of an event and a statement may change.

I completely agree. Studies have shown that eyewitness testimony is one of the least dependable kinds of evidence. With two witnesses the testimony is a lot more credible. But then it’s at night so it raises questions of visibility. And, now, with the technician’s voice analysis it really raises some big question marks as to their reliability.

The real evidence is going to be presented in court. Still, I figure that over the next couple of days more voice technicians are going to come forward either supporting or disputing these. If more come out supporting it then I’ll probably accept it as fact. But if some come out disputing it then I’ll have to put a question mark by it and rely on other evidence.

“For example, people were claiming tray was 140 and Zman was 240. But it turns out tray was 160 and Zman is 170.”

Oh really? It was you guys who claimed that mr Zimmerman was morbidly obese 280. Trayvon was 148lbs. Then you guys announced that he was 160lbs and mr Zimmerman was 240. Then he became 190. Then 180. And the incredible shrinking mr Zimmerman is now 170!!!!

“I was raised SWPL all the way in exurban NY by moderately liberal white parents who were FDR and JFK fans all the way, but not radicals.”

I see, your racism is rebellion against your parents. Little juvenile but understandable for a white american privlidged son.

“My moving to the race realist and HBD stance has been a gradual weaning of myself and de propagandizing myself from PC. It’s always been that that I’ve been pissed at and dissilusioned with, not blacks themselves or women (yes I’ve become thoroughly anti-feminist, aside from the most basic feminism.)”

I see, your ideoligical and poilitical analysis is also based on the funny white university invented PC ideology which mirrors the one you are suscribing now. A bit juvenile too, but explains a lot why you are so immature. I think it would be good thing to do some growing up, you know, like becoming a man, and leave those juvenile “my bicycle was stolen” hurts behind.

If you are, as you claim to be, a racist misogynist, be one. Don’t pretty it up. Just be what and who you are.

Oh really? It was you guys who claimed that mr Zimmerman was morbidly obese 280. Trayvon was 148lbs. Then you guys announced that he was 160lbs and mr Zimmerman was 240. Then he became 190. Then 180. And the incredible shrinking mr Zimmerman is now 170!!!!

You have a history of lying about what others have said. I haven’t said any of that. If you think otherwise then find it and link it. Otherwise, shut up fool.

I would have never been able to predict that you came from a top university. Not being disrespectful just being truthful. I would have thought that someone who dedicated a period of time to higher learning would have graduated from childish and tribalistic beliefs of racial superiority. As an adult this led me to conclude that you were a professional newspaper reader & neighbour observer.

Although, the finance part makes sense: the tendency to treat people like statistics, or at least their purported statistics (which are laughable by the way). Then the tendency to reduce them even further into what you believe is their genetic sequencings, and nucleotide bondings of adenosine, cytosine, guanine and thymine is just another symptom of this.

I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

This is why i call race realists insecure. Because they emotionally drive into a subject that they no nearly $h^t @ll about and then read a couple books and then make blind swipes at Black people. Insecure and stupid.

Your attendence at an Ivy league school; the luxury to change specialities mid-way in; the subsequent lucrative earnings are all products of your white privilege. FACE IT.

Instead of thinking HBD – think HD – Human Diversity and epigenesis (we are a product of our family histories and cultures which activate genes based on our conditions).

Human Biodiversity might have flown when you were in higher education but not today. People call it out for the faux science that it is. Come into the 21st century with the rest of us.

My reading of Doug1 is that he knows what we are saying is true. He just grasping it so tightly because he is afraid of what will happen if he loosens up. As Abagond would put it – the house of cards effect (Fragile White Ego Syndrome.)

And just to remind, this is a white, male progressive speaking. Yes I will own my ethnicity because it is important to know that there are advocates on the sides of Black people that will not sit idly by well you try to bully them with your concocted IQ B.S

In weighing recent analyses from audio technicians etc. there’s a huge elephant in the room that doesn’t tend to get talked about much. That elephant doesn’t nearly so much apply to eyewitness, ear witnesses and other sas to what their statements were on the night of the shooting or which have been expanded upon since in a consistent way, or the crime scene evidence taken that night etc.

However it does apply to purported witnesses and audio expert analysts who’ve surfaced long after this became a national cause celebre, particularly it they’re volunteers rather than experts a prosecutor’s office or the FBI etc. have gone to for judgments.

That is the enormous play this case as gotten as a major new Great White Defendant case (even though Zimmerman is obviously in just looking at him a pretty indio Hispanic), or “racism show trial” in the media, due to media bias. That makes anyone who shows up on the Team Trayvon side of evidence some kind of hero, while anyone who adds evidence to Zimmerman’s claim of self defense some kind of villain, certainly in the minds of by far most blacks in America and elsewhere, and also as portrayed by the media, or there’s at least great risk of that. Certainly no white person does himself any public opinion good and takes a risk if not either neutral or on Team Trayvon. Actually probably black people take a greater risk as being seen as uncle Toms. Well nonetheless Zimmerman does have a black friend of ten years standing who’s done so. Gutsy guy. Admirable.

So I do think that has to be taken at least a bit into account in gauging the persuasiveness of audio experts who volunteer their expertise, getting themselves into the limelight. It would be less of a factor I think it audio experts were not volunteers but simply randomly chosen among the those professionally qualified and paid for their judgment by prosecutors or even the media, again if not prejudicially chosen.

You are able conjure up any hypothetical contingency for your story about a victimized Zimmerman instead of facing the facts. And in a matter of 2 minutes after i posted the audio experts proof that Trayvon is the one pleading for help.

Oh really? It was you guys who claimed that mr Zimmerman was morbidly obese 280.

Lying again.

Neither I nor anyone else on this blog that I’ve seen have said that Zimmerman was more than 260.

The media were throwing around 250 and 260 for Zimmerman. That’s where I and everyone else who think the evidence points to self defense were getting it so far as I know.

Where did that weight come from? No the police who don’t estimate his weight. Not Zimmerman’s family or friends who’ve recently said he weighed about 170.

Almost certainly from that lying and heavily spinning black lawyer for the Martins, Crump.

It does look like Zimmerman was heavier in 2005 at the time of the mug shot for resisting arrest that the media used heavily for most of their time reporting on this, maybe supplied again by Crump. But that’s just a guess. It’s just a face shot so it was hard to estimate his 5’9 or his black friend says 5’8 from it. It seems to be largely genetic as to how double chinned or not really heavy people get.

😀 Keep on talking racists. Thats what you are good at. You guys piped that how this poor morbidly obese white slob was attacked by mean lean N****r thug. That is a fact.

All what you guys have claimed has been shown to be not true. Sorry about that. But like all racists, you come up with excuses and back track and so on. That is pathetic. That is really sorry A´s stuff.

Just be men, boys. Grow a pair. Be proud of what you are, show some manliness. Be racists. Don’t be whining mommas boys and slithering weasels. Be white racist men! Burn the crosses! Run aroud in white robes. Do something instead act like a punch of cry babies here.

It was actually the abagondites who were the most adamant Tray weighed 140 and Zman weighed 240+. They were using it to show he outweighed little tray tray by at least 100 pounds. Others reached the reasonable conclusion that 240 is obese. Which it is. You’re only mistake was not questioning their claims. Don’t let them put the burden for their mistaken claims on you. The claims originated with them. Make them own it.

I find it very interesting that BY FAR the fairest minded trying to be reasonable person tending to take the Team Trayvon, Zimmerman probably didn’t act in justifiable self defense side, is self described 16 yo black girl Adeen.

I think Randy, who’s kind of recently dropped out, destructure and I have been very reasonable in this debate. Fact based reasoning, low level of personal insults in response to vastly more leveled at us and so on.

I think as always Sam is the worst, rabid white Finnish Marxist that he is, did I say rabid?, and brothaman and truthbetold are also pretty bad anti white racists. Abagond is much less so, mostly just observes, and yes, he’s pretty smart I’ll agree, but also pretty damn racialist.

“and brothaman and truthbetold are also pretty bad anti white racists. Abagond is much less so, mostly just observes, and yes, he’s pretty smart I’ll agree, but also pretty damn racialist.”

The fact that you singled us out means we’re getting under your thin, impotent, insecure skin. Does being the 1% plus, make you feel less inept? No wonder you’re so scared.
A Negress peasant like me challenging a superior white entity like you…how dare I?!

Stop putting words in our mouths.
I’ve said many time here, I flip flop constantly between contempt and pity for your kind. And your vile words make it soooooo easy.

By the way, when Zimmerman is charged, you’ll get drunk, come here, spew vomitus, get destroyed by us, as you usually do, and crawl back to your hole.

I mean zero disrespect to you. I’m also not trying to hit on you as many black males here have recently supposed. I think you’re been so far pretty fair minded and if really only 16 as you’ve said kind of remarkable.

I am not 16. That was Adeen (sp?). I told Adeen that I was 22 in a comment when she mentioned she was young. 7789 in my username is my actual birthdate (July 7, 1989). No need to be impressed since I’m not some smart kid. Just a well-rounded adult. I didn’t misinterpret your comment as a pass. It was just..off-putting. I am busy with other tasks so I may be late with a response. No worries.

Saw that today. I knew they wouldn’t get first degree murder because honestly it was not premeditated. Fortunatedly, second-degree isn’t out of the question but Zimmerman would only get something around 30 years according to Florida law.

Oh really? It was you guys who claimed that mr Zimmerman was morbidly obese 280. Trayvon was 148lbs.

The weight of both males were originally given to the media on an access journalism basis among those leaning hard to the Team Trayvon side, by the Martin’s civil attorney is this case, who has been spinning it furously, brought in Al Sharpton, etc. The weights of both were given out by the spin meister but not the height of either since that wouldn’t boster the impression he was creating which formed the whole emotional surrond and frame of this case for the first two or three weeks. It was given by his incredibly misleading ass along with pictures of a cute boyish 13yo Trayvon rather than his 17 yo football playing athletic self at the time of the shooting.

The police gave Trayvon’s height at 6′ and weight at 160. They gave Zimmerman’s at 5’8′ but left out his weight. His lawyer and black friend gave his weight at the time as being about 170.

@Doug111
”I find it very interesting that BY FAR the fairest minded trying to be reasonable person tending to take the Team Trayvon, Zimmerman probably didn’t act in justifiable self defense side, is self described 16 yo black girl Adeen”

I really don’t get what you are trying to impy? What do you mean? I am really sixteen and young not subhuman.
How am I the fairest minded here?I don’t know if this is true about you but I just don’t believe in putting other races down or anything. I am sick of race being one of the main issues in America when the color of one’s skin shouldn’t matter.

Honestly I wanted George Zimmerman to get arrested and go to jail. No one knows what happened and how things went. I think Zimmerman didn’t mean to kill the kid. I believe he was acting out of self defense according to that law in Florida that said that you can shoot someone out ofself defense. I believe. I just think he wanted to protect himself not kil the kid but sadly Trayvon is dead.
You don’t understand that the Trayvon Martin case hit home for Blacks like me because Black males are the ones who are always targetted by police and all.
Don’t be mad at me when I said that Zimmerman didn’t mean to kill the kid because it wasn’t premediated murder. I think Zimmerman was trying to protect himself but not in a very good way.
@DeeDee
Yeah I really think that it was weird that Doug thought you were 16 like me. lol! I am NOT mocking Doug in any way and respect his opinions. Anyways I am upset that the case didn’t makeit to grand jury.

Does anyone think that people would react differently if Trayvon Martin was White? Would Zimmerman be arrested? Would things would be a whole lot different. If you think so, comment.
Honestly I don’t know if things would have been different if Trayvon was White. I just don’t like to think about race anymore and hearing about racism makes me sick.

That is depressing. Yet again, the typical excuses won out instead of pursuing any real justice . This is why people can’t keep saying that race has no bearing on these sorts of situations.

@ Doug,

Again, what does the sort of pictures shown have to do with anything? It’s not misleading, because that was a picture of him, and that’s what he looked like. No one tells white parents to only show current, same year pictures of their kids when they’re murdered, and for good reason.

@ Adeen,

Zimmerman was a man with a past history of violence, even going so far as to attack a police man, but he had enough connections to get by. Self defense is always a questionable claim to make, but it is especially off when you claim it after shooting someone to death who was unarmed and you were told not to follow. Even cops get some scrutiny for doing that, so why shouldn’t a civilian?

It’s one thing to shoot a man trying to break into your home. It’s another to shoot a teenager in a public area because you didn’t like the look of him and couldn’t leave him alone.

Unfortunately, the very fact that you are a young black woman means you don’t have the luxury of ignoring race. Look at the case of Rekia Boyd.

In regards to whether or not things would have changed had their color been reversed ? Things would have gone differently. For one, Zimmerman would have been arrested off the bat like he should have been, and odds are Trayvon wouldn’t have had his life picked apart. I am also sure that this would have gone differently.

The attorneys have said they are quitting for now, based on their prior client no longer returing their calls, texts, emails, for the last two days, rather than that they are done with him. As in if he wants them back they’re back and stand by what they”ve so far said about him and the case. Thier job so far has been to represent him to the media and to shield him from talking alone to prosecutors. Zimmerman has for the last two days made both diffucult and actively tried to curcumvent the later, and talk to the special prosecutor’s office alone. That is very strange.

However my initial response as a former (well technically still) lawyer is really? Two days?????

It does seem that Zimmerman is going through some kind of melt down. The whole idea that he killed Trayvon out of cold blooded don’t give a rip extreme racism seems even more ridiculous to me now.

George Zimmerman should go to jail!
@Ace
I know that I have to watch out for myself more because I am a young Black woman. I know that I can’t avoid race or racial situations because of the color of my skin and ethnicity. People will hate me for that but when I become a famous writer, I will give them another reason to hate me for.

A young, pretty black woman is often the first person to be patronized and condescended, especially in the professional world. Just be careful not to let those people tell you that your viewpoints are “irrational” or that you are somehow less than because of your skin color. And definitely don’t let them manipulate you into thinking you have to avoid achieving that success you wish to achieve because it would go against their racist stereotyping of you.

@ Randy,

So because someone doesn’t agree with your idea that Zimmerman’s shooting was justified (even though the EVIDENCE you speak of says that he was told not to follow him, which he did), they’re displaying a lack of rational thinking?

How come whenever someone says “rational” they seem to mean “think in ways that favor a white-male-centric point of view above all others”?

“Randy,
The available evidence suggests that Zimmerman shot Martin because he was being attacked. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, please present it.”

Randy, there is no Evidence to suggest Zimmerman was attacked first by Trayvon….this so called evidence came from Zimmerman himself–his version of events that night–his WORDS…that is not evidence…that is Zimmerman telling his side of the story…

Trayvon has yet to tell his side and never will be able to tell his version of the events…

this is a case of “he say / she say”….there is no Evidence supporting Zimmerman’s reasoning for pulling the trigger, everything so far is supposition.

So because someone doesn’t agree with your idea that Zimmerman’s shooting was justified (even though the EVIDENCE you speak of says that he was told not to follow him, which he did), they’re displaying a lack of rational thinking?

The 911 operator told Zimmerman, “we don’t need you to do that.” I am not aware of any legal standard or precedent which automatically deprives Zimmerman of his right to self-defense by not following such a suggestion/directive.

For your premise to be valid, you would need to make that claim.

Personally, I have no idea if Zimmerman was justified in shooting Martin, and unless you’re privy to evidence which has not been released to the general public up to this point, neither do you.

Randy, there is no Evidence to suggest Zimmerman was attacked first by Trayvon….this so called evidence came from Zimmerman himself–his version of events that night–his WORDS…that is not evidence…that is Zimmerman telling his side of the story…

Trayvon has yet to tell his side and never will be able to tell his version of the events…

this is a case of “he say / she say”….there is no Evidence supporting Zimmerman’s reasoning for pulling the trigger, everything so far is supposition.

“Randy,
The 911 operator told Zimmerman, “we don’t need you to do that.” I am not aware of any legal standard or precedent which automatically deprives Zimmerman of his right to self-defense by not following such a suggestion/directive.’

What right to “self-defense”?

Was Zimmerman in danger when the 911 operator said, “we don’t need you to do that.” ?

was he in the process of doing something or being someplace where his life was in danger at the time he was speaking to the 911 operator?

Yes. Your claim of “I was attacked so I was forced to shoot him” becomes invalid when you are told not to follow the very person you shot later on. You can’t just will things out of existence because they don’t agree with your habit of favoring “facts” which support your personal bias.

Was Zimmerman in danger when the 911 operator said, “we don’t need you to do that.” ?

was he in the process of doing something or being someplace where his life was in danger at the time he was speaking to the 911 operator?

Ace said:

Yes. Your claim of “I was attacked so I was forced to shoot him” becomes invalid when you are told not to follow the very person you shot later on.

Linda and Ace,

You’re both claiming that by ignoring the 911 operator’s statement of “we don’t need you to do that”, Zimmerman then forfeited any potential future justification for self-defense regardless of what events subsequently took place.

If you’re aware of a legal standard in Florida law which supports that claim, then please share it.

Otherwise, the matter of the self-defense justification would seem to hinge on how the physical altercation began, which as Linda has stated, thus far lacks any 3rd party corroboration.

“Sonner and colleague Hal Uhrig said they had not spoken with Zimmerman since Sunday. Since then, they said, they had learned that he spoke to Corey’s office and to Fox TV host Sean Hannity without consulting them, in an attempt to give his side of the shooting. They said Corey refused to talk to Zimmerman without his attorneys’ consent and Hannity wouldn’t tell them what was discussed.

Zimmerman also set up his own website even as the lawyers were creating one for him at his request. Zimmerman said on his website that he wants “to ensure my supporters they are receiving my full attention without any intermediaries.” The site allows visitors to give Zimmerman money for living expenses and legal bills.”

Zimmerman is nice making htings go into his favor. Making a site and trying to talk DIRECTLY to the prosecuter without your lawyers…lokking bad.

“Randy,
You’re both claiming that by ignoring the 911 operator’s statement of “we don’t need you to do that”, Zimmerman then forfeited any potential future justification for self-defense regardless of what events subsequently took place.”

Randy, I said no such things..my words are real clear, please don’t interpret for me.

My question to you is: at the time Zimmerman was speaking to the 911 operator, was his life in danger?

Was Trayvon right in front of him, up in his face when he was on the phone?

No Trayvon wasn’t, so You Randy, cannot link the term “self defense” to Zimmermans conversation with the 911 operator.

The only person claiming Zimmerman was “justified” and acting in self defense is Zimmerman..he can say anything he wants..he still has to justify why he pulled the trigger….he say/she say

What the 911 operator represents is an outline to events that lead up to the Zimmerman pulling the trigger….all of these events leading up to the actual altercations paints a picture of Zimmermans frame of mind and actions prior to his face-to-face with Trayvon before he pulled the trigger.

In florida, Stand your Ground becomes null and void if YOU are the agressor. You cannot claim self-defense if you are the one who approaches and pick an argument/fight with someone.

Under Stand your Ground laws, Trayvon was in the right.
Please stop pretending you don’t understand what I’ve just said.

That’s a salient point, and I appreciate that you shared it. According to the law, the following criteria invalidates the right to use deadly force:

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;

Does one party approaching another party and asking, “what are you doing here?” imply that the first party has “provoke[d] the use of force”?

I don’t have the definitive answer to that question, but I suspect that the answer is “no”. I’m not aware of any precedent which allows you to attack and beat a person to death just because they approached you in the street and asked you a question.

Also, one witness states that Martin was on top of Zimmerman while delivering blows, which would allow Zimmerman to claim that he was unable to escape, satisfying exemption “a” of section “2” even if it were determined that he “provoked” an attack.

Around 1:30 mark a co-creator of the “Stand Your Ground” Law mentioned that pursuing someone makes the law no longer applicable in that case.

He explains that being in your space (car, house, etc.) is where that law would be effective. It is speculation that Zimmerman was being beaten so badly that he was going to die. He injuries indicative of a fight do not neccesarily imply a brutal beating. His words are not to be placed at high esteem until supporting evidence is formed to back it. Other wise Zimmerman’s own statement can be scrutinized. Lets just wait it out because there is no definite evidence that were are aware of for if Zimmerman was defending himself from deadly harm or not.

@Ace
”Exactly.
A young, pretty black woman is often the first person to be patronized and condescended, especially in the professional world. Just be careful not to let those people tell you that your viewpoints are “irrational” or that you are somehow less than because of your skin color. And definitely don’t let them manipulate you into thinking you have to avoid achieving that success you wish to achieve because it would go against their racist stereotyping of you. ”
I know the very first sentence as a fact because of what I went through last year at my Catholic high school. A lot of people were mean to me particularly a lot of the White students. Most of the Caucasian girls made fun of me and didn’t want me in their groups. They said that I was weird, different and that I am ”outspoken”. There was a lot of rumors and gossip about me when I was there and my mother came to pick me up and she told me the woman at the front desk,(I am not going to tell you her name but I can’t stand her) told her that I was outspoken like there was something wrong with it. My mother figured that the woman at the front desk heard this from the students. This woman who told my mother this was a huge gossip and a very mean woman. And the Caucasian guys would tease me too.

Not all of the WHITES at my Catholic school were like that, some were very nice but enough of them were. Whenever wanted to speak my opinion, they told me to shut up. The blond can speak her opinion though. Not even the teachers liked me speaking out like that. I wasn’t even ghetto or loud either but speaking my opinion on things and they thought that I was being sassy. I was not and never intended to come off that way.
Some of the White students were nice and all. But they weren’t enough of them. I am not bitter towards Whites. They are just like everyone else. In fact, the Black guys in my grade always teased me and joined in in the teasings from the Caucasian students. No one really stood up for me and said, Hey, leave this girl alone besides a group of seniors. No one in my grade really. I left because I had to and now I go to a public school.
Please they better get justice for Trayvon and put that crooked Zimmerman in jail because I swear, I am going to make this case another reason why I want to leave this country. Peace.

“I’m not aware of any precedent which allows you to attack and beat a person to death just because they approached you in the street and asked you a question.”

**********
Typical white racial framing here… the black person NEVER gets the benefit of the doubt. Randy’s subjective bias is evident in HIS belief that the unarmed lad was attempting to beat the armed adult to death. Um, um, um – smh.

_________

“Also, one witness states that Martin was on top of Zimmerman while delivering blows, which would allow Zimmerman to claim that he was unable to escape, satisfying exemption “a” of section “2″ even if it were determined that he “provoked” an attack.”

***********

Is that the same witness that stated Z was screaming for help??
And, was that before, or after, the Sanford police entered the crime scene and began coaching/correcting the witness(es) – telling them that they were mistaken because .. well .. they really didn’t see what they thought they saw.

Hmmmm… darn .. I forget, what that’s called??

Witness tampering???

Randy, just give it up. Everyone here (except you, apparently) clearly sees you for who and what you are – a pseudo/pretend phony intellectual troll ALWAYS pedaling your own brand of very subjective BS.

Randy, just give it up. Everyone here (except you, apparently) clearly sees you for who and what you are – a pseudo/pretend phony intellectual troll ALWAYS pedaling your own brand of very subjective BS.

Amen! So much for these clowns who vehemently defended this goof. Now they will claim that this turd has not been tried yet in a court of ‘law’, hence one cannot draw any conclusions until this is done. I got all your arguments down pat, clowns! A 2nd degree murder charge eh? They must think they have enough evidence to pursue this charge.

noofficer of the law has the right to tell you to not keep your neighborhood safe by merely following someone. being followed when you are wearing the regalia of a gang thug is to be expected if you are in a gated community. nobody has the right to put their hands on another person for merely following them. then the young man followed zimmerman back to his truck and attacked him. there is not reason to believe based on martins profile that he was not packing a gun. nobody here playing monday morning quarterback knows what they would relly do in zimmermans situation. anytimei I see someone out of place (no matter their race) they are questioned in a friendly manner and followed out of my neighborhood to make sure they don’t just hang around and sell drugs or case peoples homes for robbery.
dress like and act like a thug expect to be treated like one. one of the problems with this case is that the perception of both the people involved have been severly injured by media’s manipulation and not using current phot’s of either person. martin was a thug and thrown out of school for drug possesion , vs zimmerman who was exonerated of any charges that caused him to be photographed as a criminal.

Amen! So much for these clowns who vehemently defended this goof. Now they will claim that this turd has not been tried yet in a court of ‘law’, hence one cannot draw any conclusions until this is done.

My position on the matter can be summarized by the statement, “I don’t know what happened and neither do you.”

Special prosecutor Angela Corey undoubtedly has access to evidence which the public lacks. The filing of charges against Zimmerman doesn’t redeem the fallacious and non-rational opinions about this case which have been shared on this blog and elsewhere.

…D:, well you made your stance clear although on what evidence to support I’m not sure. Seems like you are drawing a lot of conclusions from information that was never meant to be made public(Like the suspension for a baggie, not actual drugs by the way). But let’s move on from all the bashing regardless of if its about Zimmerman or Martin and just hope that the jurors make the best decision.

yes dee dee a court of law where justice is served on a regular basis , the words beyond the shadow of a doubt come into play, as well as the name twanna brawly I”m not saying zimm is innocent, but untill he proven guilty we as a society have the responsiblity to not tarnish his reputation in case he is.

twanna brawly..I just looked that person up and I was shocked that she would make up false allegations against 3 white men. That is really sad because she could have destroyed the lives of 3 innocent men.

In the link is a more recent photo of Zimmerman and his lawyer says he is lucid. It’s good that he isn’t a emotional reck becuase he needs to tell his side of the story to the jury and judge. I just hope he doesn’t try to change anything since evidence that he may not have been aware of will show up in the court. It would only make him dishonest and more likely to go to jail.

What irks me is Al Sharpton jumping in front of the cameras and saying, “This isn’t a time for high-fiving.” Uh, no shit, Sherlock…an arrest is meaningless. I’ll celebrate if Zimmerman is adequately punished for his crime – and no, the death penalty isn’t the answer. I feel that Trayvon’s parents should be the ones to decide the ultimate punishment…indeed, any parent of a murdered child should be allowed that satisfaction.

I’ve always been one who wishes that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would STFU, personally.

Why should someone be questioned in a neighborhood by someone who is not law enforcement? When I see a stranger follow me and ask me where I live I think “stranger danger”, not “Gee, let me tell him where I’m staying so that he can follow me there.”

I don’t know how other people run their lives but if this happened in my culture, the question would be to the parents: Why do you let your kids out in the middle of the night?! Don’t you teach your kids any better?

I was raise to know that if you go out that late, you are inviting trouble. If it is such a big issue in the Black community that they are profiled, then why go out and put themselves in a situation when they could clearly avoid it.

I don’t know what happened, but all I know is that if I was Trayvon & Zimmerman died, I would like to be innocent until proven guilty.

Fernando-
Where did you get the info that the shooting occurred in the middle of the night? And on the fact the Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty, your are legally correct, yet everyone can express their opinions where people like it or not. It happens in every trial and this is no different. FYI don’t victim blame; you are indirectly saying if you saw a kid in the middle of the night you would shoot him because it is his fault for being profiled.

And to all the people who always complain about the police & the judicial system, until you are put in a situation in where you truely depend on the police or courts, you can’t see how good the system really is.

I’ve been thru both sides of the law and the system works… if it didn’t work for you, then you were probably up to no good.

Well no, most people are taught not to talk to weird strangers who follow them and ask them questions. And most adults are taught not to follow other people around if they aren’t qualified to do so.

It’s not Trayvon or his parent’s fault that other people choose to profile them, and they are not required to live some life of solitude because someone can’t control their biases. You’re seriously saying that if a young man walked home from the mall or something after the movie (where he lived only ten minutes away) you’d think it would be okay for him to be followed or shot because he was profiled? Victim blaming just is in such bad taste, come on, we’re better than that, right?

The man is guilty (there’s no question that he shot an unarmed teenager after being told not to follow him and having a history of violent felony behavior), there’s no “innocent” here, and we all know that if Zimmerman was dead, there’d be no “innocent till proven guilty”, Trayvon would already be in jail and charged from he start. That’s where the frustration lies.

Also, my great uncle was an NYPD cop, and he sees a problem with the justice system. Are you implying that people who complain about being treated unfairly by the law, even in blatant cases of subpar treatment, are all doing something wrong? Because I’m sure a “hero cop” would be interested to know that you think he earns the treatment he witnessed.

Ace-
Don’t make it that it’s one or the other. I’m not stupid, I know there are some that misuse the system, but to say that the whole system is bad or corrupt is simply childish. But I worked with a lot of officers and I look back to the trouble I cause when I was younger and I know that I did cause them. Everyone is in control of their lives and to always blame others is just pathetic.

When I was younger, I was walking towards a group of boys that look like thugs (yes, I profiled). I chose to cross the street so I wouldn’t get my butt kicked. It was my right to walk that same sidewalk as they did and if they hurt me, it would be them doing something wrong. But I didn’t let it happen that way and I am still here today. All I’m saying is that kids should be taught some street smarts and why attract trouble when you don’t need to.

Ace- I’m reading your prior post and you talk about facts and justice is not being served. Then you say that “The man is guilty” when he hasn’t been tried yet… I guess you believe yourself above the law.

I’m sure that Trayvon was a smart kid and If Zimmerman was a bigger tougher looking thug, Trayvon would have never messed with him. Trayvon made the choice & felt he could control the situation, then he paid the price.

And I don’t care about Zimmerman, he was just a person that got caught up in it. He made a choice to carry a gun & now he has to answer for it.

Everyone made their choice and everyone has paid or will pay the price for their actions. So please becareful what choices you make.

Curious, what is Zimmerman going to be proven “innocent” of…is he going to be proven innocent of pulling the trigger in cold blood, he certainly is “guilty” of killing someone…

the courts are just going to give his killing a “label” …it could be “manslaughter” or “murder in 2nd degree” or “murder in self defense”, then the court will decide his punishment or no punishment, either way he still pulled the trigger and killed someone.

I don’t think this crime is racial, nor can you say that this kid was “acting” or “dressing” like a thug, since Zimmerman stated that Trayvon was walking (and in the rain too)–so please explain how Trayvon was acting like a “thug”

I guess when I see white or latino teenagers with tattoos and with their pants hanging off their butts, I should get my gun ready too because for sure, these little “thugs” are going to rob me because they are being loud and obnoxious…you know, I just described groups of teenage white girls at the mall too, so I should put them on my “thug” list.

“Fernando,
I’m sure that Trayvon was a smart kid and If Zimmerman was a bigger tougher looking thug, Trayvon would have never messed with him. Trayvon made the choice & felt he could control the situation, then he paid the price.”

How was Trayvon trying to control the situation?

Please explain why you believe Trayvon was a thug who was messing with Zimmerman?

How is wearing a hoodie thuggish? Even more, how is wearing a hoodie to protect yourself from the rain thuggish? I saw that you said you didn’t know much about the case… maybe you should read up on it more?

I think it is pretty weird that in the Land of the Freedom you think that it is ok to shoot people whose clothing or fashion you do not like. Also I find it pretty weird that there are certain times when you are not supposed to go out. You say that anyone who goes out at night is taking a risk and responsible him/herself.

Does that include nurses, paramedics and the police too? Astronomists, scientists doing research, truckdrivers, night cafe waiteresses, people in bars and night clubs etc.?

Something I learned about America:
When a new trend comes out that is fancied by the black community, bandanas, high-top sneakers, backwards facing hats and let’s not forget teeth “grills”, it goes unnoticed by the white public UNTIL whites start doing it. ( Funny how they blame blacks but still want to emulate our look.)

Then it becomes a “black thing” to be vilified and stigmatized.
You see, blacks paved the way for many trends in pop culture. From the coveted sweatsuit that J.Lo likes to show off her round, African-like posterior, to Michael Jackson’s red leather jacket, to the low-sung, almost-falling-off pant look( I don’t approve of this sloppy look).

The hoodie, was something we ALL wore; it’s warm, comfortable and easy to throw on. It went mostly unnoticed til rappers made it ” in fashion” then it became vilified. Now the hoodie-look is on trial as a thug apparel responsible for a teenagers murder. ONLY IN AMERICA!!!! Once again proving that white supremacy and opinion is the only opinion that counts.

That’s not undoubtedly true at all. Not even close. You just want to believe in the system. Prosecutors often behave in a very political fashion and the pressures on Corey were immense.

She had HUGE political reasons to file serious charges. Blacks were openly threatening massive property and maybe life destroying riots all over Florida if she didn’t.

Famed criminal lawyer and Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz has said that he thinks the charging affidavit of Corey was so weak that any good judge would throw it out. He also thinks that if she had strong evidence the public doesn’t have she would have presented it in the affidavit.

Corey seems to have based her charging Zimmerman mostly upon Martin’s mother saying the screaming voice was that of her son, and Trayvon’s girlfriend DeeDee’s statements about what she heard on a cell phone call with Trayvon just before the fighting began. Both are obviously very self interested and both are contradicted by other testimony some of which is not so far as we know self interested, particularly that of John.

I’m ongoing going off of what you said. I’m sorry if that bothered you, but I don’t like when people act like anyone who doesn’t view the system as 100% pure and just somehow gets told that they “deserve” the problems they have. You opened up that strawman in the first place, forgive me for taking offense. My family has served this country since we were IN this country in some way shape or form, and if someone like me is profiled, or arrested for something someone else would walk for, damn right it’s the system. It’s not blaming other people for one’s problems if people just want a fair, more consistent system. It’s not like punishment has been applied fairly or equally. If my friend can go to jail for the same thing I could get probation for, it’s not her fault if she’s upset about that.

That is an understandable point of view except for the fact that you should not profile. It’s not fair. They don’t look at you and all think, “Oh, let me rob this one particular, special man.” odds are they just want to get from point a to point be. It comes off, honestly, like your trying to blame Trayvon for his death when Zimmerman was the one with the gun, who chose to profile him, follow him, and have his hand in an altercation that ended with Trayvon being killed. He is at fault for this, it’s not Trayvon’s fault that other people couldn’t get their biases in check and act according to the law or in a professional manner.

And hoodies are not “thug attire”, I wear it all the time. Skaters wear it all the time . Old men and women wear hoodies often. It’s not fair to pull it out to use as some way a shooting victim was at fault. It just isn’t fair.

“Ace- I’m reading your prior post and you talk about facts and justice is not being served. Then you say that “The man is guilty” when he hasn’t been tried yet… I guess you believe yourself above the law.

You aren’t the “rational”, “unbiased” party, so don’t pretend to be.:”

Also, he is guilty. He pulled the trigger and killed him. He’s guilty of killing him. That is what I mean. He is guilty of killing him so there is no “innocent” here. The boy is dead, he’s alive, and he shot him. Unlike Zimmerman, no I doubt believe I am above the law. That’s why I would hope he’d be found guilty of Second Degree murder like he should be.

@ Doug111,

Bullshit.

Blacks did not threaten property damage or rioting to get a charge. And why the hell are Trayvon’s mother and girlfriend being classified as “self-interested”? Are you kidding me? How are they any more self-interested than John? Because they’re black and want justice?

“Doug1111,
Blacks were openly threatening massive property and maybe life destroying riots all over Florida if she didn’t.”

Doug, that’s not true. I live in Florida. People were upset but by NO WAY was there going to be a riot all over Florida..Sanford would have had problems because of the Black Panther movement being there as well as the KKK…both groups made there presence known and both groups were saying inflammatory things to try to get people upset.

I wish white people on the internet would stop saying this BS, there is no racial hatred going on in Florida…people are protesting because they wanted an arrest, Florida is too laid back for that mess.

It’s easy to blame everything on blacks. The actions of one or a small group of black people always reflect on the actions of all black people. So when they see the New Black Panther Party they suddenly represent all black people (but the KKK and Neo-Nazis down there apparently don’t represent the minds of white people). Even if no one was rioting. Doug will still find a way to make up something (or read a racist publication that will). People like that can’t get over their “black conspiracy” nonsense. Even if black people were wiling to riot down there, I highly doubt they would be able to force a mainly white justice system to charge someone just because they said so.

Doug1111 is crushed that his hero, George Zimmerman, has finally been booked. So he has decided to let all that tension out on Abagond’s members. Isnt that fair of him to take out all of his issues on POC. His inadequacies. His delusions … the accusations that Blacks are to blame for why Zimmerman was arrested in the first place is particularly hideous.

I have concluded that Doug1111 is in a psychological bizarro world. Everything is morally inverted when it comes to people like Doug1111. Which means that he thinks that what he is says and does is noble, intellectual & necessary. When most people know that it is not.

@ Doug1111

There are many reasons why today’s population embraces a multicultural society – because we believe in multiculturalism, our generation (the youth of today) are going to work to address all the damage that your generation and the preceding generations have enacted on POC and especially Blacks and First Nations groups. We will do our best to make sure that many of your hateful and unjust traditions go extinct with you and the other dinosaurs that have tried to continue these beliefs. We will fight them tooth and nail and work toward better forms of education that ensure we are enlightened about the evils of race realism and other forms of bigotry. And future generations will follow in suit. You and your brethren are trying to swim up the Niagara Falls with your race realism. The sooner you realize that, the better for all.

Wow so much comments!
Where to start,……………?
George Zimmerman was recently charged for second degree murder. I am glad he was charged for something but I think it should be manslaughter. I don’t think he meant to kill Trayvon intentionally because they were fighting and Zimmerman felt the need to defend himself. But I still think what he did was wrong.

Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law professor and probably the most famous criminal defense lawyer in the country having read that the special prosecutors affadavit claiming probable cause that Zimmerman commited second degree murder without a valid defense of self defense thinks it submitted insufficient evidence to do so and that any good judge will throw it out once there’s a first hearing on it.

I still feel that second degree murder is the perfect charge. I also like that Corey did not lay out all of the facts/evidence in the affidavit because the public doesn’t need to know all the evidence until the trial begins and procedes. Too much evidence has already been “leaked”. Since all of the evidence hasn’t been presented then it would be foolish to just toss the case without fully exploring the case. It is better to have an innocent man proven to be so in court then to allow a guilty man to go free.

Under Flordia law Corey has to present ALL the evidence her office has gathered to defence counsel beginning no later than 15 days after charging Zimmerman, all WELL before trial, except in the case of very later discovered evidence, and then very promptly after receiving that.

I doubt if this will go to trail before a year from now. Defense will want to let passions die down. Probably will be a change in venue too.

There’s a good chance it will be dismissed in pre-trial motions too, due to the weakness of the evidence against a credible case of self defense so far presented or I think that the prosecution will be able to present.

At the risk of speaking for others, I think people are expecting Zimmerman’s case to be bungled in the courtroom as it has been through the various stages of the investigation (including the 40+ days it took for a light skinned to get arrested for killing a Black skinned youth. who killed a Black youth).

Two positive signs though for the outcome of this case:

First off – the easiest charge to find Zimmerman guilty of is manslaughter – yet the crown attorney chose 2nd degree murder. Clearly there is a reason why she thought that Zimmerman could be found guilty. I think the evidence that she is privy to is great enough to discredit zimmerman’s angry Black male life-or-death shooting fallacy.

second off – the case could have already been dismissed by the judge and Zimmerman could have been sent home free if the judge didn’t think there were merit to the case against him.

I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets off scot free – which will truly remind of the deficencies of the judicial system as oriented towards Blacks. If that hasn’t already been emphasized throughout the subsequent month to his death.

Jt said is it true that they tested for drugs and alochol in Trayvon’s body but not on Zimmerman?

The body of a victim has to be tested for drugs and alcohol inorder to know all possible contributers to the death of the individual. I am disappointed that Zimmerman was not tested, however. The police literally took only his word on the matter without throughly investigating the incident when it occured. That was mishandling of the case imo.

JT,
I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets off scot free – which will truly remind of the deficencies of the judicial system as oriented towards Blacks”

Linda says,

I don’t know, I think people are being too cynical when it comes to the judicial system.

Even though many Zimmerman supporters are making statements, such as, “you don’t have to legally follow the directions of the police dispatcher”, that may be true but that doesn’t mean the State of Florida and the judicial system have the same point of view.

also, precedent counts.

In Miami, recently, a judge convicted a defendent who was using “stand your ground” as his defense.

From what I have read in our local papers, many policemen and courts (Florida) don’t like this law, so you might see the Courts start to send clear messages to Florida residents that they cannot use this SYG law to get out of killing someone.

I agree! You said it so much better than I ever could, lol. It really makes me upset that people like Fernando, Geraldo Rivera and so many others are claiming that wearing a hoodie is now ‘thuggish’. Uh? I have been going on college visits and have gotten a few hoodies from the universities I’ve seen, as well as wearing the ones from my parents schools, etc… so is that now thuggish, too? Seriously, it is just awful that people are trying to blame and even justify/rationalize Trayvon’s death on a piece of clothing that basically everyone wears. Its like they’re just finding any reason NOT to face the realities and facts on this case and every case similar to it. lsorry if that was really redundant to what you said lol

I heard an interesting discussion on NPR about the case between a former prosecutor and a defense attorney. Unless significant additional evidence comes forth, it may be likely that Stand Your Ground would play no role at all.

The only difference between SYG and traditional claims of self-defense is that under SYG a person being attacked does not have a “duty to retreat”.

According to Zimmerman’s story, he wasn’t in a position to retreat. The attorneys seemed to think then that the case will hinge on whether or not a jury believes Zimmerman.

But what about the allegation that Zimmerman may have been the original aggressor? According to Florida law, a person retains the right to self defense even if they were the original aggressor, provided that the other party is using a disproportionate amount of force in return.

In other words, even if you approach a stranger, call them a name, and slap them across the face, you’re still entitled to use deadly force in defense if that party uses a disproportionate amount of force on you, and you legitimately fear that your life is in danger.

I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets off scot free – which will truly remind of the deficencies of the judicial system as oriented towards Blacks. If that hasn’t already been emphasized throughout the subsequent month to his death.

Start at 0:51 mark. This man had his head hit a concrete wall once and he was out. I honestly don’t believe that Martin was bashing Zimmerman’s head harshly against the concrete ground since he would have been out fairly quickly. If the 911 screams were his screams(Zimmerman) then it brings into doubt how badly Martin was beating him. I don’t believe the harsh head beating story for a second, he was clear and focused when he spoke to the police and the scene, not dizzy or disorientated. i believe it is more likely that Zimmerman used excessive force therefor 2nd degree murder.

“Randy,
The only difference between SYG and traditional claims of self-defense is that under SYG a person being attacked does not have a “duty to retreat”.

According to Zimmerman’s story, he wasn’t in a position to retreat. The attorneys seemed to think then that the case will hinge on whether or not a jury believes Zimmerman.”

Linda says,

Exactly, Randy. This case is a “he say/she say” with Zimmerman the only one standing who can “say” anything, so he has to convince the courts or jury to believe he had no choice but to pull the trigger.

I was listening to a radio program with former policemen and they were saying that if Zimmerman really indeed had a broken nose, it’s possible that it could have occured from the recoil of the gun, if he really was on the bottom when he pulled the trigger.

The close proximity between Zimmerman’s face and his hands in relation to Trayvon’s chest would have left blood evidence inside of the gun as well as “pull-back” blood splatter on Zimmermans face…if the police did not take his gun or test the blood on GZ’s face, then that theory would be hard to prove.

dee dee it does not take that long to get over being shook up. you also don’t know how long it was betwee that occurence & the scene at the jail . you are purely supposing you know what happened which is dangerous for our democratic system to allow people like you to make conjecture with even less evidence than the state and assume that the rest of us are supposed to agree with your falacies. you are racist to say the man is guilty before a court of law has even had to to do so. I”m not saying zimmerman is innocent , but in our justice system the words INNOCENT UNTILL PROVEN GUILTY are very important. twanna brawley and teh courts of north carolina ruined inocent peoples reputations for life (and probably their chance of gettting the jobs they went to school for) because of her false accusations. this is not someting we can afford to repeat.

2nd degree murder is out of the question , self defense does not fall into that category. manslaugher at most. the hoody is not a black thing it’s just something that drug dealers (most of which happen to be black ) weart while plying their trade. it allows their faces to not be seen & play off the fact that even black people all look the same to eachother. case in point a black man who robbed banks in harlem nyc. he blended into the crowds and robbed over 100 differentn banks in the same neighborhoods.

“Doug,
Zimmerman’s head was being repeatedly pummeled against the cement sidewalk. He reasonably could have feared for coma or death.”

How do you, I, the courts, a jury know this Doug?

Zimmerman is “saying” this verbally, there is no evidence to support this. Grass stains / abrasion to back of his head suggests a struggle but was this struggle truly life or death…..Zimmerman SAYS it was, but was it really?

Everything your saying is supposition.

the court still has to believe GZ that he felt he had no other choice but to pull the trigger, in order for this case not to go to a jury…

it’s not as cut and dry as you want to make it seem.

If the police made it a habit to let every suspect walk away based on “only” their words, then why bother to have a judicial system?

@randy so according to syg zimmerman was right when he defended himself because following someone who looks like a criminal is not a crime . the syg law should be the law of all of the land. a person should not have to be perceived as a coward and hence more of a target to other aggressors. plus slamming someone to the ground and slamming their head repeadatly is not porportionate to being followed when you look like you don’t belong.(dressed like a thug in a upscale gated area. for all zimmerman knew the kid was going to continue to beat him untill he was dead. only a criminal would have responded in this manner if they were up to no good. no honest citizen would do this, they would either run away or ask what the deal was. zimmerman had no way of knowing that if he did not respond with dealdy force that martin was unarmed, martin was already guilty of aggravated assault to begin with.

I can’t take you seriously. I never stated if Zimmerman was guilty or not so do not place words into my mouth. Was it not Zimmerman and his team that stated that he was being beating? If so then you yourself have claimed that Zimmerman has spoken fallacies. I mentioned not believing the severity of the assault, not that an assault never occured. Also, look up racism, I don’t believe you understand the term since I have never mentioned race. Do not try to assume you know me because you do not.

@ linda
it was not just zimmermans word but his word plus corroberating evidence of him being bloody and cuts on his head.(not large enough to be seen on a cheap grainy cctv) what your suggesting is the paramedics who out of the influence of zimmermans judge father and not privvy to that either. there is the used cotton swabs & their treating his wounds hours before the jail scene & very well cleaned up. nobody is going to risk their future over just someones word.

@ dee dee
this is not a pissing contest. but have you read the paramedics report? did you read the arrest report? do you know what martin really looked like that night? or what martin did. these are very important as it affects the perception(&why things) of what really happened that night & most people are not knowledgeable that martin was dressed like a commont thug and almost legally an adult definatly not a child. if you nkoew anything you would know that innocent till proven guilty is appropriate. most likely manslaughter is the worst thing that is appropriate.

Look at all my earlier posts in this thread for your answer of if I know about the case. Move on from whatever hate is in your heart becase it is clouding your perception of other users and make you come off as a troll.”this is not a pissing contest”.I’m not sure what this means but I don’t care to know the answer. Relax and just let the discussion flow.

[A new enhanced version of the surveillance video of George Zimmerman in custody, may support neighborhood-watch shooter’s story in the Trayvon Martin shooting.

But Dr. Vidor Friedman, president of the Florida College of Emergency Physicians, remains unconvinced.

“If somebody had been beating his head against concrete I’d think we’d see more obvious scrapes,” Friedman said. He also said he would expect to see bandages on Zimmerman’s head.

More significantly for Friedman was the condition of Zimmerman’s nose.

“All of the ridges in his nose are clearly defined. You would expect significant swelling in the hour or two after a break. There appears to be none. It doesn’t look like his nose was broken or badly broken,” Friedman said. ]

Interesting medical perspective, i would like to hear from others as well however.

“Miguel Miquel
@ linda
it was not just zimmermans word but his word plus corroberating evidence of him being bloody and cuts on his head.(not large enough to be seen on a cheap grainy cctv) what your suggesting is the paramedics who out of the influence of zimmermans judge father and not privvy to that either. there is the used cotton swabs & their treating his wounds hours before the jail scene & very well cleaned up. nobody is going to risk their future over just someones word.”

Linda says,

Miguel, please dont’ speak for me or interpret for me, my English and words are very clear.

I didn’t say anything about the paramedics, video, or GZ’s father…who cares

Zimmerman had what we call in the medical world, “abrasions” in laymans terms it’s called a “cut”. When the paramedics treat someone, they document the event, so that the rest of us medical personnel can follow the history of the event…so please don’t try to educate me.

The abrasion represents a struggle, nothing more…the paramedics could care less what he said as far as him shooting Trayvon, their job (paramedics) is to treat the patient at the scene, document, and move on.

and yes, the prosecutor certainly did put his job on the line by letting Zimmerman go based on his word. The same way if I accidently “kill” someone at my job, my license is on the line and I have to prove that I followed ALL protocals and procedures as per standards set by the State of Florida.

The point of that case is to show that false accusations can occur and that lives can be ruined. However, there are no false accusations in the Martin case so Miguel Miquel is just letting his/her stance be known in the Martin case. The problem is that every testimony is not fact and does have to be scrutinized in the court. No one is trying to ruin Zimmerman’s life, he did that all on his own by not being a responsible neighboorhood watch captain and letting the police do there jobs..

it was not just his word or the prosecutors opinion it was also the states attourney. this was based on the fact the police were there when the paramedics treated him so they knew it was self defense. you sound like a racist assuming zimmerman is guilty based on superflouis knowledge of the case which tainted by what the media has manipulated you into believing.

Again, let me say that Stand your Ground becomes null if you are the aggressor. All points say that your Zimmerman was the agressor. He was told to stand down. He didn’t listen. I don’t give a damn if it was by the dispatcher or a cop. He had no right to approach the teenager.

When he goes down, and he will, you’ll have no choice but to eat crow. I know what’s bothering you, old friend. You’re putting yourself in Zimmerman’s shoes and would’ve loved to pull the bloody trigger yourself. Ahhhhhh, the smell of Negro blood on your hands would be orgasmic, no?

That’s why you’ve been missing on so many threads, like the one on white crime. You’re saving all your Grand Dragon-ish prowess for your honorary white ally, Mr Zimmerman.

Dougie, tell us…why fight it?
You know this is a losing battle, right? Your time is up. You’ve lost. The humans have won. Whether you like it or not, the good ole days where you ruled supreme are slowly coming to smashing end. It won’t be pretty, though. Karma is a bi+ch.

Oh and the fact that you’ve been missing for weeks to pop up now and argue for the justification of killing a black boy…well now…you’ve qualified for ” American Racist of the Year.”

“deedee7789
All of the ridges in his nose are clearly defined. You would expect significant swelling in the hour or two after a break. There appears to be none. It doesn’t look like his nose was broken or badly broken,” Friedman said. ]

Interesting medical perspective, i would like to hear from others as well however.

Linda says,

Deedee, the only hard part about the broken nose is that there is no longer a way to prove or disapprove it, unless upon his release, Zimmerman went to the hospital for treatment.

If he did, they would have taken x-rays of his face and possible a CT scan of his head to check for fractures or hemorrages.

With fractures, bruising doesn’t have to happen right away..it could show up anywhere between 24-48 hours.

If he went into hiding almost immediately, then it’s possible that only his family saw him, so there are no unbiased witnesses to verify the broken nose.

it indeed is a false accusation that this is murder it is self defense & manslaughter @ most. however if he is innocent then it is a false accusations. following someone is not illegal I do it all the time when undesirables of any type roam through where I live. this is not a crime I approach them in a friendly manner and ask them where they are from and other leading friendly questions. only a criminal will respond in a non friendly manner or attack in retalliation for knowing what they are there for. defending yourself after having stopped watching martin and returning to his truck is not stopping the police either. ever hear of citizens arrest?? you don’t have to wait for the police nor do you have to stop following someone who looks suspicious if you know the police are not going to do anything. open the wax out of your ears you racist. the police do not pay zimmermans salary so they have no right to tell him to stop an acitivity that is not illega. if following someone I suspect is not up to any good in my own neighborhood then I will continue to be a criminal in a neighborhood that does not have breakins or corner drug dealers & watch my property values rise and continue to keep the wrong element from even renting a house anywhere near me.

“Doug,
The desire of the blacks in this country to unjustly convict this Latino Zimmerman is huge. And appauling. Calling him white. I’m quite disgusted at most of you.”

Who gives a sh’t how you feel, Doug.

why don’t you talk about the eyewitness who say Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon while he was alive…

Why is it so easy for you to believe Zimmermans words..do you know him personally?

You should be disgusted with yourself for defending this man who admitted to killing another human being and you don’t even know why…oh I forgot, he said it was self defense so it “must be true”….get over yourself Doug.

Yes, obsessively following a person is legally considered stalking and is extremely illegal. If any of those people you follow called the cops or reported you, you could get a restraining order or worse. A citizens arrest laws only applies to when you are observing, have observed, or if you are victim of a crime in progress. Any other time it is considered a civil rights violation or assault.

Miguel,
it was not just his word or the prosecutors opinion it was also the states attourney. this was based on the fact the police were there when the paramedics treated him so they knew it was self defense. you sound like a racist assuming zimmerman is guilty based on superflouis knowledge of the case which tainted by what the media has manipulated you into believing.”

Please explain how anyone knew it was self defense…

was it captured on video, was someone else besides Trayvon/GZ standing there when GZ pulled the trigger.

Because the police detained GZ and took him to the station.

So are you saying the prosecutor was there and witness GZ pulling the trigger in “self defense”, because if he wasn’t there personally (prosecutor), that meant he TOOK ZIMMERMANS words at bold face value.

“this was based on the fact the police were there when the paramedics treated him so they knew it was self defense.”

One of the cops at the scene had in the initial report the incident as manslaughter (not justifiable ergo no self defense). So your statement above is not true. The police at the scene had no idea if it was self-defense or not which is why it was initially written off as manslaughter. We don’t know if it was in self-defense which is why is has to go to trial so that forensics can prove it or not. No one here is saying Zimmerman is guilty but that something happened that does not clearly indicate self-defense based on the evidence that has been leaked to the public (and has mostly been removed so as not screw up the case). So can we stop with the “racist” and “digust” comments okay?

@truth be told following someone is not aggressing an altercation it’s making sure your neighborhood is safe. I do it all the time. #2 the police are not in control of what private citizens do within the law. following a suspicious person is not illegal.

In 2007, the Second District Court of Appeals found that the “Stand Your Ground” law specifically did not apply to a situation where the victim is retreating. In contrast, this past August, the First District Court of Appeal held that the “Stand Your Ground” law permits an individual to use deadly force, even when an aggressor is retreating.
Florida courts are also split on how to decide if a person is immune from prosecution under the “Stand Your Ground” law. Some judges require a pretrial hearing to determine the facts of the case and making a finding of whether the defendant acted in self-defense. Others state it is similar to a motion for summary judgment and can only be used if there is no material question of fact.
so you can see this states nothing about who aggresses who . if I slap the piss out of you and then you attack me I’m still defending myself and have the right to not look like a pussy and attract more aggressors to me as being seen as an easy target.

remember there was many home break ins in the area. do you know what a home invasion is? I hope you never find out. so getting the shit beat out of you is self defense, though following a supsicious charachter does not give them the right to put their hands on yout. this is something only a guilty person would do. an honest person would ask why he was being followed or run away. banging someones head on concrete can kill them. you can’t say you would not have done the same. also according to eye witnesses zimmerman had already broken the chase off as the kid was too fast. remember the statement about coons always getttin away?? get your facts & lies straight. you people who assume zimmerman is guilty are racist as hell as he is even more of a minority thatn trayvon he jewish and latino.

this is not a crime I approach them in a friendly manner and ask them where they are from and other leading friendly questions””

@ Miguel Miquel

You are white (and not Hispanic like your name would suggest). I am white. So you would never approach me.

However if you did, i would tell you exactly where to go. You have no more right to be in a place than another and your “harmless” questioning of what you refer to as “undesirables” is an act of harassment.

George Zimmerman is the perfect example of how the so-called gatekeeper mentality is more of a threat to individual safety and civil society than the so-called undesirable (who in this case was Trayvon Martin).

Doug said: “The desire of the blacks in this country to unjustly convict this Latino Zimmerman is huge. And appauling. Calling him white. I’m quite disgusted at most of you.”

Dougie,

Your false outrage is laughable. I noticed you never responded to my theory as to why you’re so invested in this case. You’re putting yourself in Zimmerman’s shoes. You believe you’re quite intelligent,
don’t you?

You’re putting yourself in Zimmerman’s shoes and would’ve loved to pull the bloody trigger yourself. Ahhhhhh, the smell of Negro blood on your hands would be orgasmic, no?

That is only half of it Truth. Yes, Doug 666, aka Beelzebub and his legion of demons, I am not interested in their phony stats or lunatic ‘race realist theories, which is, in reality, their closeted lust for black men. You and your ilk(male ‘race realists’), seem to slobber over talking about black mens’ supposed sexuality a little too much for my taste and thier excess testosterone, their propensity for violence and low impulse controls among other stupidness. Remember Doug, you can’t go home again. All you flailing about along with the other ‘race realist’ here will not make it so.

Doug1111 finds me disgusting for telling him that the judicial system is ethically bankrupt when it comes to POC and people would not be surprised if there was more miscarriage of justice with Trayvon’s case. I would really like to know what part of that statement is disgusting by any sane assessment of this situation. Especially considering where we are at this point with this trial. Where it took media scrutiny to see that this would have been swept under the rug if people didn’t stand up and speak out against this situation.

For anyone who thinks that we are going over the line in talking with these StormFront hooligans; well, unfortunately, you can’t talk to a madman with rationality: human kindness doesn’t resonate with the non-kind, the non-human.

These posters from StormFront need to see what they are posting is deplorable. The only way they will is by holding the line with them and being just as verbally vicious as they are emotionally vicious.