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02:05:22 Phase 0 is runtime.
02:05:47 Phase 1 is syntax, but you can also get higher as your macros get more meta.
02:09:17 its really that there are infinite phases and phase 0 is where the expander starts
02:09:45 what im trying to say is ive stopped thinking about phase 0 as runtime and phase 1 as syntax, i just think of the phase number itself
02:14:10 (your run-time can be another person's compile-time, if `eval' is involved in the picture)
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02:25:46 samth_away: The claim is not false but simplified (as are most of the claims in that diff to keep it brief).
02:27:49 To add to Riastradh's comments, the point is that `syntax-rules' is side-effect free, so it's trivial to make it available at all phases.
02:28:53 And by leaving out any mention of phases you effectively imply `syntax-rules' is available at any level of macro nesting, without needing to touch on implementation approaches (of which there are many and conflicting).
02:30:41 Riastradh: The text for `current-second' was written by someone who was strongly opposed to TAI, hence the bias. I'll clean it up.
02:31:59 klutometis: The totem pole pun?
02:38:25 samth_away: It may be difficult, though, for an implementation with Rackets semantics to make syntax-rules available implicitly at all levels without touching the expander code (e.g. just as a normal Racket language).
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02:43:29 If that's the case, I'd recommend to anyone writing a language to just automatically include `syntax-rules' at some arbitrary number of level (say 0 to 4), with some cond-expandable hook for extra levels, until core support can be added.
02:43:29 And I'd love to see some code that needs level 5 :)
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02:54:53 Riastradh: Jiffies were introduced when the idea was to use POSIX time, since POSIX time can't be used for timing. They are now redundant, so a case can be made for their removal.
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02:56:38 *Riastradh* raises several eyebrows.
02:57:49 Is CURRENT-JIFFIES just supposed to represent a monotonic clock? In that case, it is useful -- but why a different unit of time?
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03:19:30 *ski* wonders how to interpret and in terms of hygiene ..
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03:48:35 Riastradh: Yes, just a monotonic clock. I think the idea of the different unit of time was to allow for differing levels of clock precision while keeping the results exact.
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12:48:17 pwd
12:48:40 /home/joelsapa/scheme/nifty-hacks/gronglefrop
12:51:44 Any Gambit users here have Slime working? I'd like to know versions, I have 4.6.1 and the one at https://github.com/jlongster/swank-gambit?id=h73kq
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14:30:51 guys
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14:31:08 i have my type-intersections, such that:
14:31:35 (if ((var . rational)) true (if ((var . number)) true false))
14:31:42 this represents (or number rational)
14:32:01 for 'var'
14:32:12 and i plan on simplifying the types
14:32:18 but i dunno how...
14:32:35 such syntax is necessary for predicates
14:32:46 (i think)
14:33:03 i mean, i have a few ideas on how to do it but maybe it has already been done or someone has uber-solution
14:33:22 this is ugly, but i can do wonders
14:34:14 with it
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15:08:37 foof: i think this discussion indicates precisely my point -- the claim that avoiding procedural macros avoids phasing-related portability issues is false, and any "report" on writing portable Scheme code needs to discuss phases
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15:50:41 is there a swank for racket?
15:50:46 i'd rather use emacs than drscheme
15:51:42 *penryu* uses geiser
15:52:06 weirdo: There was one for scheme48, IIRC.
15:52:38 weirdo: with swank, you'd use mzscheme without the GUI, wouldn't you?
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16:15:56 *_p4bl0* votes for geiser too
16:16:26 weirdo: http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/
16:16:44 Yes, geiser is nice :)
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16:37:44 What is it in slime/paredit that makes it trigger for .lisp files - how can I make it trigger for .scm files too?
16:38:55 (add-hook 'scheme-mode-hook 'turn-on-paredit)
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16:39:33 _p4bl0, geiser s*cks, it can't autodoc my r5rs code
16:39:33 :(
16:40:02 even for builtins
16:42:11 hm
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16:45:27 so there's absolutely no set-car!/set-cdr! in racket?
16:48:59 penryu: There's set-mcar! and set-mcdr!. There's also mcons, mcar, and mcdr.
16:49:05 oh, I see. you have to explicitly create a mutable list and then use the m* functions on it.
16:49:15 Yep.
16:50:21 I like that, other than the breaking backward-compat angle.
16:50:36 er... lateral compatibility?
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16:54:37 still, probably better in the long run
16:57:10 Imagine the recursive "Make-list" function that takes a number and returns a list of that length. Its non-termination case is (cons '() (make-list (- n 1)) . 1: Is this a tail-call? 2. If not, what allows scheme (the one I'm using) to run it to its limit - is the stack growing on the heap?
16:57:46 is it just me, or old scientific papers on CS looks more interesting?
16:58:52 Modius: Not a tail call.
16:59:23 Is making a list of a million items in this manner good/idiomatic Scheme style?
16:59:39 Modius: There's a technique called..."tail recursion modulo cons" that will allow it to be treated as a tail call.
16:59:42 Or would you tend to code it as a tail-call in the thought that it would cause memory mayhem if coded in this way?
16:59:53 cky: You mean the 2nd parameter.
17:00:02 This is working on gambit though - I assume the "stack" grows onto the heap then?
17:00:08 phao: Yes; there's some kind of law of exponential degeneration w.r.t. to science, I think.
17:00:23 Pulp science and quantity over quality?
17:00:24 w.r.t. ?
17:00:51 Modius: I'd prefer to do it as a "real" tail call just because it's more portable.
17:01:24 cky: Sure, just wondering what the fact that this works tells me about the stack activity of the implementation.
17:01:33 Modius: Both make-list and iota are already provided as part of SRFI 1, and you don't need to implement it yourself, unless you really want to.
17:01:45 cky: Seems gambit doesn't have it
17:01:48 Modius: Right, it probably means the implementation uses TCMC or the like.
17:02:00 Modius: I think Gambit, you have to install SRFI 1 via Black Hole.
17:02:12 cky: But I'm looking for understanding here too, *this* function isn't brain surgery but I want to know what happenes in code
17:02:24 You should read up on how TCMC works. :-)
17:02:26 Black hole?
17:02:34 Modius: Black Hole is Gambit's package system.
17:02:50 Modius: Like PLaneT for Racket, eggs for Chicken, Guildhall for Guile, etc.
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17:04:43 phao: "with regard to"
17:04:52 ok
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18:04:22 hi! is there a way to have DrScheme display "actual code" instead of just #?
18:07:57 e.g., ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 1) -> (lambda (y) (+ 1 y))
18:08:55 malorie: you can write your own define-source operator.
18:09:33 malorie: notice however that you will have to implement all the environment manipulating operators yourself, since there's no standard way to get internal environments.
18:09:51 (define-source f (let ((z 42)) ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y z))) 1)))
18:10:03 malorie, drscheme will compile the program so source information is lost
18:10:06 f --> (lambda (y) (+ 1 y 42))
18:10:09 s/standard/sensible/1 `Standard' is irrelevant.
18:10:19 jonrafkind: ah. I see
18:10:24 (Except as an unreliable debugging operation.)
18:10:49 but it looks like you want to debug the program so you can see the reduction steps?
18:10:56 malorie: for an example, have a look at ibcl http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
18:10:57 pjb: I will look into that. in fact, what I really want to do is, implementeng an untyped lambda-calculus
18:11:17 One more reason to go the metalinguistic path.
18:11:18 you could use redex
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18:16:24 The Redex book website even has a lambda example: http://redex.plt-scheme.org/lam-v.html
18:16:34 The graphical tracing lets you see the "actual code"
18:21:14 thanks for the suggestions. I'll just re-read the sicp chapter on metalinguistic abstraction for now :-)
18:21:57 In CL/emacs I can hit Ctrl-Alt-X and slime sends the function across to the CL. Is there the equivalent with Scheme? When I hit ctrl-alt-X it tries to give me a command line for gsi (Gambit interpreter) - do I have things misconfigured?
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18:23:48 Modius: C-x C-e should works for inferior-lisp with any cli scheme.
18:23:59 Modius: M-x run-scheme RET to launch it.
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18:25:23 Modius: Actually, I bind C-x C-e to (defun lisp-eval-last-sexp (&optional and-go) "Send the previous sexp to the inferior Lisp process. Prefix argument means switch to the Lisp buffer afterwards." (interactive "P") (lisp-eval-region (save-excursion (backward-sexp) (point)) (point) and-go)) in lisp and scheme buffers.
18:25:47 pjb:pjb: When I ran that I think it tried to eval it as Elisp
18:26:35 Yes, that's why you need to use lisp-eval-region insteadl of eval-last-sexp.
18:26:48 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex
18:26:52 (add-hook 'scheme-mode-hook (lambda () (local-set-key (kbd "C-x C-e") 'lisp-eval-last-sexp)))
18:26:53 pjb: How can I bind that? I'm quite the emacs dummy in most areas.
18:26:58 pjb: You read my mind
18:29:16 pjb: Where do I get lisp-eval-region?
18:29:39 Modius, are you using cmuscheme.el?
18:29:49 Riastradh: I'm using gambit
18:30:06 I.e., are you just using a vanilla GNU Emacs without SLIME or Geiser or anything, and trying the `run-scheme', `scheme-send-last-sexp', &c., commands?
18:30:25 Riastradh: No, it's heavily set up for CL
18:30:38 Yeah, but I mean for your Scheme stuff.
18:30:57 Riastradh: I have slime working
18:31:01 Modius: it is in inf-lisp.el, which should be loaded by M-x run-sheme or M-x inferior-lisp RET
18:31:04 So you are using SLIME for Scheme?
18:31:32 Riastradh: Yes, connecting remotely to a gambit scheme - *that* works
18:31:47 And it's indenting/highlighting/paredtiing .scm files
18:32:05 ...SLIME doesn't have anything to do with indentation, highlighting, or paredit.
18:32:08 Broadly, I'm looking for a way to get the equiv of Ctrl-Alt-X I use in CL to get it to send a form to slime
18:32:12 Okay
18:32:42 What does `C-h c C-M-x' say in a Common Lisp buffer with SLIME/CL running?
18:33:29 Riastradh: lisp-eval-defun
18:33:58 That won't be going through SLIME...
18:34:35 What about `C-h c C-c C-c'? And then `C-h c C-M-x' and `C-h c C-c C-c' in a Scheme buffer with SLIME/Gambit running?
18:37:05 In and .scm buffer (with slime running): C-c C-c scheme-compile-definition-and-go, C-M-x scheme-send-definition, In gambit repl: C-c C-c is slime-interrupt, C-M-x is lisp-eval-defun
18:37:36 What does `C-h c C-c C-c' (or maybe `C-h c C-c C-k') in a Common Lisp buffer with SLIME/CL running?
18:38:47 In a .lisp file with slime/cl running, C-c C-k slime-compile-and-load-file
18:39:37 1. pjb is confused; ignore him.
18:39:49 2. In your Common Lisp buffer, `C-M-x', `lisp-eval-defun', sends the definition to the *inferior-lisp* process/buffer that SLIME happens to use internally, and by accident, that definition is reflected in the SLIME REPL.
18:40:20 3. But in the Scheme buffer, `C-M-x', `scheme-send-definition', is a cmuscheme.el command, which has nothing to do with SLIME (even accidentally). When you ran it, cmuscheme.el saw that there was no cmuscheme.el process, so it tried to start one (hence the prompt).
18:41:19 4. You're supposed to use the SLIME commands such as `C-c C-k', perhaps `C-c C-e'; I forget what the keys all are. Look in the output of `C-h b' or `C-h m' in a Scheme buffer for `slime-eval-...', `slime-compile-...', &c., bindings.
18:42:44 (4) - I see them in the REPL buffer but not in the .SCM buffer
18:43:02 How did you set up SLIME for Scheme?
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18:44:55 Riastradh: I'm just using slime-connect
18:45:28 Riastradh: why would I be confused? This is #scheme, and unless he's using an old scheme48, there's no swank for any scheme, AFAIK. Therefore emacs + scheme should go thru inferior-lisp, hence my solution, which works perfectly well for me.
18:45:29 Riastradh: I have a couple hooks to turn on paredit
18:46:20 I'm not sure of what exists for scheme; but I have the repl working, and the .scm indenting/colored - I want to know if there's something I can do (or undo) that will let me type something from an .scm buffer and have it send it to the lisp like I do in CL
18:46:28 My scheme-specific stuff in the .emacs file is very minimal.
18:47:42 pjb, (a) he's not using an old Scheme48, as you might have observed if you were paying attention, (b) no, there are Swank implementations for several Scheme systems these days; (c) no, `emacs + scheme' goes through cmuscheme.el, not inf-lisp.el, when you use run-scheme, scheme-send-definition, &c.; (d) no, your `solution' is broken and doesn't interact with SLIME as Modius wants to do.
18:48:30 Modius, what did you put in your .emacs to set up SLIME with Gambit?
18:48:59 Riastradh: I'm remote-connecting to a swank-running gambit on another machine - ergo, as I understand slime etc., what/how I start is a separate issue.
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18:49:25 I mean, I'm not (currently) addressing the startup concerns, I'm just doing slime-connect somewhere 4005
18:49:50 Modius: did u write the backend yourself?
18:49:51 Modius, ah, OK. Is the SLIME minor mode enabled in your Scheme buffer? If not, you almost certainly won't see any SLIME key bindings there.
18:49:52 In CL experience this just works (the .lisp/slime connection association)
18:50:11 Riastradh: Not sure what that entails - I *do* have paredit; but maybe not anythnig else
18:50:24 Modius, do you see `SLIME' in the mode line in the Scheme buffer?
18:50:26 leo2007: It's on the net somewhere
18:51:26 Riastradh: On the .scm buffer, no, on the repl, yes
18:51:59 Riastradh: Cancel that - I don't see slime on either; but I see the menu option (windows) for slime appear over the repl but not the .scm buffer
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18:52:15 Modius, OK. Just as a quick test, try `M-x slime-mode RET' in the Scheme buffer, and then see whether there are SLIME-related key bindings in it.
18:52:37 (I don't think that's the way you're supposed to set up SLIME cruft in a Lispish buffer, but it should presumably hook up the key bindings.)
18:53:00 Riastradh: That added slime bindings
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18:54:35 Riastradh: That did it - how can I make that kick in automatically for .scm files?
18:54:40 Did you call `slime-setup' in your .emacs file? If not, I believe you're supposed to (but this may be a very outdated recollection).
18:54:49 (or, (eval-after-load "slime" '(slime-setup))
18:54:49 )
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18:55:12 I call silme-setup with params '(slime-repl sslime-fancy slime-asdf slime-indentation)
18:55:21 I mean param = that list
18:56:42 Something is making slime switch on for .lisp files but not for .scm files
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18:57:26 OK. Does that put anything in `scheme-mode-hook'? If not, is there a nullary routine `slime-scheme-mode-hook'? If the latter, you may need to (add-hook 'scheme-mode-hook 'slime-scheme-mode-hook). (But, again, this may be a very outdated recollection.)
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19:00:54 Riastradh: You nailed it. Thanks!
19:02:33 Ah... Try (add-to-list 'slime-lisp-modes 'scheme-mode) before calling `slime-setup'. (This too may be outdated -- I'm looking at a very old (2007ish) version of SLIME which is what I have handy.)
19:02:42 Then it may not be necessary for you to add the hook yourself.
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19:05:21 Riastradh: No, I still need the hook even if I do that - but thanks, that did the trick
19:05:55 The Gambit swank is functional; but is short a lot of capabilities. That said, I can now at least have slime in scheme support the same stuff I do with it in CL
19:07:13 Thans Riastradh, pjb
19:07:29 Man, everyone's .emacs file must have a lot of hard-learned lessons in it.
19:07:58 It's more that SLIME is too complicated, and Scheme is a second-class citizen for it.
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19:13:52 I like CL; but there isn't one that represents a viable choice for commercial software, so I'm experimenting to see if Gambit could provide a solid full-cycle platform. It meanst though I'd have to tolerate the purity and elegance of Scheme
19:14:19 Modius: Lispworks? Allegro?
19:14:23 I mean, commercial IPHONE software
19:14:27 Sorry, leave out one word you're hosed.
19:14:28 Right.
19:14:28 :)
19:16:10 Well, as far as I'm concerned, there's no viable choice for iPhone software but to throw it away, but anyway... (Don't the terms you must sign to develop iPhone software prohibit writing programs in anything other than C, Objective-C, and one or two other languages?)
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19:16:34 Riastradh: not anymore
19:16:45 Riastradh: Few points. . . 1: Apple backed away a bit. 2: How could they ever tell?
19:17:12 Anyhoo, the gambit authors have a $1 repl app which is basically tied straight in to the full gambit, so we're good.
19:17:24 Modius: the binary generated by the various compiler is clearly identifiable.
19:17:28 Presumably they could tell by looking at the source; aren't you required to disclose it?
19:17:41 (disclose it to Apple, anyway)
19:18:01 Modius: they have tools to statically and dynamically scan the behavior of binaries with respect to their API.
19:18:08 You don't have to give you the source
19:18:12 them
19:18:32 Anyhow, you can buy $1 repls on the app store.
19:18:51 ...Buy?
19:19:41 You can go on app store with an iPhone/iPad and buy the Gambit Repl, or one of several others.
19:20:17 I'm just saying, if they were going to ban an embedded interpreter, they would have started with the really blatant ones.
19:20:22 Well, presumably you mean `buy a licence to use for limited purposes', but...still, `buy'? Is this Gambit iPhone REPL not free software like the rest of Gambit?
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19:21:01 Riastradh: Technically, I have the Gambit repl's source, which is open source, compiling and ALSO on my iPad - but you can buy it on app Store to use if you don't have a dev license or jailbroken device.
19:21:33 I'm not trying to enter the "free software" wars here, just telling you what is out there.
19:21:38 I see...so if you want to play with this free software on a device you own, you have to pay money for that extra privilege?
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19:22:24 That is generally the nature of the app store.
19:22:32 There are cases like that for android. Some people buy software just for convenience (i.e., not having to set a dev environment, cross compiling etc).
19:22:44 (Or do you not own the iPhone at all either, but rather merely a licence to use it for limited purposes? I've never tried to buy one, so I don't know.)
19:22:49 Yeah, I bought it before I knew I could get it compiling.
19:23:09 I think you physically own it. Dunno what the DCMA implies about jailbreaking
19:23:19 Anyhow, back on topic, I'm impressed by the quality of Gambit so far.
19:23:23 mario-goulart, now that's puzzling. If I buy some free software Android application, do I get to replace the copyright holders' names by my own, because I bought it?
19:23:47 If not, what are you `buying'?
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19:24:15 Riastradh: I don't think so. I think you are just paying for the compilation service. :-)
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19:24:19 Time, I take it
19:24:42 Not having to futz about with a compiler and cross compilation toolchain just to get this program onto your device
19:24:43 Just like ordering a CD from FSF.
19:24:44 Technically (except I went and got it building anyway) the $1 would be cheaper than the time I would burn trying to get the *@#%! thing compiling.
19:25:19 how would you define subtype on constrained types?
19:25:51 What does compiling have to do with it? One can download pre-compiled binary distributions of free software over the intertubes.
19:26:02 constrained types have variable/type bindings
19:26:09 and then/else clauses
19:26:31 Sometimes they are not available, Riastradh. I think gambit is one example (I may be wrong, though).
19:27:30 But they are available, mario-goulart -- for $1. I'm just puzzled by that $1. Wouldn't it make more sense to make the binary distribution, like the source distribution, cost just as much as one another, because in practice the cost of distribution is essentially the same; and then set up a separate donation mechanism?
19:28:25 Oh, I see your point.
19:29:00 Maybe the ones supplying the binaries are not the authors themselves but a 3rd party trying to earn some easy money?
19:29:14 http://code.google.com/p/connectbot/ is another example.
19:29:39 Although I think it is free on androidmarket (guess).
19:30:00 it is
19:30:19 i use it occasionally
19:30:42 Maybe apple just mandates that software distributed via applestore must cost some amount of money? :-)
19:30:44 Haven't played with it; but I'd heard both on jailbroken iphones and on droid there were apps that made the logistics of finding pirated apps as easy/easier than buying (moot on android where noone buys anyway)
19:31:01 I guess maybe for the iPhone, you *can't* distribute `apps' except through the app store, and perhaps there's a $1 lower bound on the price of any `app'.
19:31:15 And why isn't applestore called iStore?
19:31:24 The barrier to my *grandmother* jailbreaking her phone is all that allows commercial software to exist on the iPhone - as it doesn't exist on the android there are no real sales.
19:31:51 it's true, i've never spent money on any android app
19:32:04 then again i haven't used a whole lot of android apps period
19:32:15 there might be some i'd be willing to pay for
19:32:18 The guy selling Gambit Repl (I assume it's the core maintainer/author) - hope he sells enough to make back his $99 dev fee.
19:32:38 Nobody's spent money on android apps. Were you to go now and buy one, you'll be one of the handful who ever has.
19:32:43 It's a tragic marketplace.
19:32:43 What about donating to the authors of software you like, turbofail?
19:33:19 that's not always something that's easy to do
19:33:28 If you really appreciate the Gambit iPhone REPL perhaps you could donate $99 to the author.
19:33:30 App store made paying incredibly fast, and no more work than DLing a free app (important distinction from Android store - you set up to get free/paid apps at the same time)
19:33:53 But that's pretty strange, turbofail. There's obviously an easy mechanism for transferring money to the authors of `apps'.
19:34:36 Is it actually limited so that you technically cannot transfer more than $1 without installing the Gambit iPhone REPL more than once, which maybe you can't do on a single iPhone?
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19:34:58 Haha - Riastradh may be brainstorming the "instant impulse donate" button (to go alongside the instant impulse buy button)
19:37:02 anyway the total number of apps i've installed is... three, one of which is supported by advertising
19:37:51 another of which is a high school student's 1-day project that i wouldn't really consider worthy of donating to
19:37:58 The "fast buy" models have shown that people put a price on buying stuff outside of the $ amount; but on the time it takes to re-punch-in credit card info.
19:38:20 (Did you mean to put a `not' somewhere in that sentence, Modius?)
19:38:37 I meant to put "also"
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19:38:52 Steam, App Store and things like it manage to make it easier than, or at least as easy as, pirating - in the past that wasn't the case.
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19:46:07 good evening, schemers
19:46:19 Hi wingo
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20:30:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124000
20:30:20 do you consider this behavior to be correct?
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20:31:17 If our behaviour is strict, we do not need fun!
20:32:45 :-)
20:34:54 also, see annotation please
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21:37:33 Remote-controlling Gambit scheme on an iPad via Emacs/Slime now - sweet
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21:42:33 Using gambit - (define (a (b null)) ...) is erroring "ill placed default binding" - what's the proper way to do optional parameters? is that form standard, or is only having a "rest" param standard?
21:43:58 maybe #!optional?
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21:44:38 yeah #!optional is how gambit does it
21:45:21 i don't know if there is an actual standard for optional arguments
21:45:26 there are some srfis
21:45:27