August 20, 2008

So the government set up "protest zones" in various parks for people who wanted to protest during the Olympics. But you had to apply for a permit, and all the applications — reportedly 77 — were turned down. Wu and Wang made repeated applications.

Oh - and what about that woman who was upset when she missed her flight and started shouting that she needed to get on the plane.

Oh that's right - the police killed her.

And that illegal immigrant who's been in the United States since he was a teenager and who was married to a US citizen. When he applied for a green card and realized his documents had lapsed - they through him in jail. And then he got cancer and complained about excruciating pain - and was ignored and not allowed to see a doctor at all. Well he's dead too.

Oh - and what about that woman who was upset when she missed her flight and started shouting that she needed to get on the plane.

Oh that's right - the police killed her.

You mean the dumbass who choked herself to death trying to get out of her handcuffs after being arrested for going batshit in the airport? Yeah DTL that's right up there with forced labor for protesting.

And that illegal immigrant who's been in the United States since he was a teenager....

Well that pretty much ends my sympathy right there. I guess he would still be alive if he stayed in Mexico with their universal health care.

And how many people are still locked up in Guantanamo with absolutely no hope of ever getting a hearing, many of whom are believed to be innocent?

They're all Muslims, you know religious people who by your own definition are cultists which you despise. You don't seem to have a problem with the Chinese locking up Christians do you?

You comment in bad faith. You try to ruin conversations. You ignore the topic at hand. You spout shit just to rile people up. A community has to have rules or standards, either implicit or explicit, in order to function. I happen to like the community here and I resent the fact that you continually try to disrupt it. Althouse doesn't sufficiently protect the community from people like you. That's her choice, but as someone who participates in discussions here I feel like I need to say something.

Again, how many threads are you going to let downtownlad ruin, Althouse?

DTL, I'm guessing that "re-education through labor" will be a little more unpleasant, protracted, and likely to leave permanent scars than what the "Don't tase me bro" guy went through.

One of the most brilliant people that I've ever met was a fellow grad student in the math department, from China. She was quite a bit older than the rest of us, and I asked her about this on one of the many times that I'd talk to her in her office. She'd gone through something like this -- she didn't refer to it as "re-education", but it was clear at the time that it had been some sort of forced labor that lasted for about 10 years.

She'd never go into details on this subject. I'm not sure if it was because the memories were painful, or because she would one day have to return to China, and still had family there.

The subject is obviously that China is the big oppressive dictatorship. Which of course is just a load of crap, as anyone who's been here can tell you.

Sure - it's not perfect. But the US has long ago lost the morale high ground to start judging others on their human rights record. And I would say that Ann, as a tacit conder of a torturous regime, has lost that morale high ground as well.

China has gotten more free over the last 8 years. MUCH more free. The US has gotten less free. In fact, the Chines people are more free than they have been at any time in their entire history. It's all about momentum, and China's moving in the right direction and the US is moving in the wrong one.

Now that the US is getting their ass kicked by China in the medals race by about 2 to 1, it's not surprising to see the US suddenly move into a "let's bash China" phase. Shocker.

So of all of these people that Bush and his cronies have gleefully shit upon (the "don't tase me bro" guy was tased on a college campus for challenging John Kerry, BTW), how many have been sentenced to "re-education through labor," and for what transgressions? Keep in mind that people like DTL are those who are of the opinion that people who dispute scientific speculation (not scientific FACT) should be tried for crimes against humanity. They apparently believe that some re-education is in order (and the brutal irony of this is that the Chinese government doesn't give a fuck about AGW).

Why do you persist in lying about something we can watch on video? He was not tasered for "ask[ing] a politician a question"; he was tasered after numerous warnings while resisting his removal from the auditorium, something that ensued from his disruption of the proceedings and subsequent refusal to leave despite requests to do so. The wonder is that the cops showed as much restraint as they did.

The event is on video, DTL. For you to keep telling us that something happened that we can see with our own eyes is incorrect is not a winning strategy unless your goal is to make yourself look like a horse's ass.

I normally don't point out typos, but you did this twice in the same paragraph. Why I feel the need to comment on it is this: whatever your original intent, the actual statement is quite correct. Sad, really.

"China has gotten more free over the last 8 years. MUCH more free. The US has gotten less free."

Then surely it's perfectly okay to hold an antigovernment protest in Tiannenmen Square now? How about trying to shut down military recruiting offices in, say, Tianjin? Because it sure as Hell seems to be okay to do those things here. When the Chinese pass us going in opposite directions, then I'll give credence to your assertions. Otherwise, you're talking out of your ass ('cause your mouth knows better).

This is a country that went from a per capita income of $200 a year to the current $2500 a year in about 20 years. It was a very rural country until recently. So older people don't even know what "gay" is. If you're working on a farm your whole life, you have other things to think about. So the older generation expects their kids to get married and have a kid, and with the 1-child policy, there's even more pressure.

This really isn't any different than the United States. I'm sure a gay kid who grew up on a farm will have had a much harder time coming out than a kid whose parents lived in a city and were more familiar with gay people.

I'd say 90% of the gay people in Asia are in denial, and will just end up getting married to someone of the opposite sex. That's changing of course, but it takes time for a country to open up.

Yes - if you challenge the government, life won't be good. It will be much less free than the United States. But if you don't, you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want, and in that sense it can be more free than the United States. If you're 8 years old and want to buy cigarettes - you can.

It's a strange dichotomy and a fascinating place to visit. And you opinion about what China is like will probably be shattered.

"This is a country that went from a per capita income of $200 a year to the current $2500 a year in about 20 years. It was a very rural country until recently."

So an example of a country that has undergone a similar transition and is friendly to gays should be easy to find. How about the UAE or Saudi Arabia? Or is it too difficult to admit that prejudice against gays is not uniquely (or predominatley) American?

downtownlad said... "Watched the video - and I was exactly right. He asked a question, people didn't like the question, so he was tasered."

No reasonable person would or even can watch the video and characterize what happens as being a person tasered for asking a politician a question. And I suspect you know that, otherwise you would have linked to the video in the first place instead of mischaracterizing it and hoping no one knows how to search Youtube. Still, if you want to look like a total idiot by maintaining your woefully false version of the story, you go right ahead.

Poor Wu and Wang. What do they to in "re-education through labor" camps?

It sounds awful.

I was watching the Olympics last night and noticed the women/girls that hold up signs with the countries name on them. They sit their with the signs and don't move with a fake smile on the entire time. At one point one of them was near the male gymnast and he was slapping the powder off his hands and it got on her hair and she didn't move. She was like a little Chinese stepford lady. They cut to a commercial and when it returned she was gone and there was another one holding the countries sign. I hope she didn't have to to to re-education through labor because she got a gymnast chalk on her hair. That would be a shame.

We learned of the torture of soccer players by Hussein fils, we see protesters re-educated, I have to wonder if there are any dire consequences to the Chinese athletes who do not perform as expected.

Ann, I don't know about anyone else, but when I see a DTL I jump over it, hurdle if you will. But when I see him post comment after comment after comment, I'm as likely as not to stop reading any of the comments. I mean, good grief, he is so boringly predictable. And then people engage him, and the whole thread gets tiresome. Did your maternal instinct kick in when you learned that his own mother despises him?

Yes - if you challenge the government, life won't be good. It will be much less free than the United States. But if you don't, you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want, and in that sense it can be more free than the United States. If you're 8 years old and want to buy cigarettes - you can.

Is that really your definition of freedom? Keep your head down, don't rock the boat, and you're golden?By that logic, most societies are inherently free.Any comparison of the treatment of the two women in the linked article with the treatment of protesters in any anti-war, anti-globalization, or anti-Bush protest in the US proves the weakness of your argument.

Hey everybody, I see the shadow of The Invisible One! >ike the telltale trace reflections in Predator. Tipping things over and pissing on the carpet. Comparing and equating well-publicized and exhaustively discussed events in the United States with an utterly totalitarian state?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

OMG that degree of cultured retardation self-loathing and hatred is funny. Oh wait, no it's not. It's pathetic. *sads* As a parent whose child has fallen to world of substance abuse.

I think DTL overall is destructive, for the reasons Palladian points out.

He does however accurately reflect the naked leftist idiocy best seen in Virginia Woolf’s writings. The adolescent philistinism, unending petty resentments, emotionalism, intellectual dishonesty, and the collapse of all relevant moral distinctions, DTL and Woolf share these techniques in full, quite prepared to let civilization fall, so that their childish grudges might be paid back and insatiable ego stroked, like fully-grown toddlers.

Woolf touted neutrality before the Nazi threat, even expressing admiration for them, saying British women should refuse to assist the WW2 effort in England, "Their first duty . . . would be not to fight with arms. . . . Next they would refuse . . . to make munitions or nurse the wounded . . . . the next duty to which they would pledge themselves [would be] not to incite their brothers to fight, or to dissuade them, but to maintain an attitude of complete indifference."

Similarly, DTL is unable to draw a distinction between the USA and the Communist party, which in China murdered 40 to 60 million people. In other words, there is no relevant difference between the defects of the US and those of China, no more intellectual freedom in America than in ComChina.

Says DTL: But we tasered a braying brat who refused to shut up!, so we are as guilty as Mao.

China mollified Olympic officials and the usual cast of Jewish and Euro-WASP human rights lawyers by saying it would set up "protest zones" meant to encourage expression of thought. Foreigner activists need only apply for a Visa, and native Chinese a simple permit to use the protest zones.

Except no Visa was granted to any foreign protest group.And internally, Xinhua said 77 applications were received, though many more were discouraged at a lower level.Or disappeared.

The authorities, however, have refused to explain what happened to applicants who disappeared after they submitted their paperwork. Among these, Gao Chuancai, a farmer from northeast China who was hoping to publicize government corruption, was forcibly escorted back to his hometown last week and remains in custody.

Relatives of another person who was detained, Zhang Wei, a Beijing resident who was also seeking to protest the demolition of her home, were told she would be kept at a detention center for a month. Two rights advocates from southern China have not been heard from since they were seized last week at the Public Security Bureau’s protest application office in Beijing.

The 77 had all but 3 dropped in consultation. (Likely over matters like China insisting that applicants 1st have their organs be tested for fitness to transplant into older Party oficials and megamillionaire Owners of industry). 3 of course were found officially to be in violation of law.

And people who have examined the Opening ceremonies closer have found that most "show" participants were Chinese soldiers selected for months of intensive drilling.

The economic success of China, which is happening through huge trade imbalances and deindustrializing the well-paying jobs existing elsewhere (in full connivance of wealthy Western corporatists) and the happiness of it's people getting all those outsourced jobs is balanced by China's totalitarian "command & control" dark side.

In that sense, the Opening ceremonies were the most beautiful, well-organized, military-orchestrated event documented since "Triumph of the Will".And with the protestors, China sure showed the malcontents who speaks exclusively for the Noble Free Chinese People.

In Wild Swans, the writer Jung Chang tells of her mother's experiences in a re-education camp. She had to sleep with a manic Red who stayed awake and observed her sleep patterns. When her mother tossed and turned, the Red would wake her up and question her about her dreams. There was some concern that the mother was having anti-Mao dreams....These things happened during my lifetime. I am not surprised that people are capable of going to such lengths to inflict pain upon each other. The Jonestown event happened among well fed, well educated Americans who believed themselves well intentioned. But no one outside of the Rev Jones immediate web would think to defend him. What is chilling about Communism is how many educated people like dtl after so much needless death and pain find words to justify it. I doubt that they they really think Communism is objectively good Rather they have ascribed all the pain and failure in their lives to bourgeoise capitalism. Well, whatever works.

This causes me to get up and do so. Last night I dreamt I was listening to someone expostulating at length. I walked inside and there was one of my sisters also in speech giving mode. She asked if I cared to listen. I answered, do, please make it brief as I have a mouth full of toothpaste. Then she banged on at length as the toothpaste foamed. I woke up. The television was on and some woman was talking about neopeptides, whatever those are. Naturally I got up and brushed my teeth, which is weird because the very next thing is a big ol' giant Mason jar of coffee which pretty much erases the whole sparkly teeth thing.

Human rights advocates have long criticized the system because punishment is handed down by officials without trials or means of appeal. Last year, the government briefly grappled with revamping the system but backed off in the face of opposition from public security officials.

Although it is unlikely that women as old as Ms. Wu and Ms. Wang would be forced into hard labor, many of those sentenced to laojiao often toil in agricultural or factory work and are forced to confess their transgressions.

You mean they are being punished by getting jobs? We need some of that over here. A little hard work never hurt anyone. Hard work a human rights violation? BAH.

downtownlad said... The biggest problem with gay life in China is that most people don't know a lot about it, since many gays are in the closet. But society is not antagonistic against gays as it is in the United States.