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I'd like to summarize some important points about Genesect, the premier U-Turner of the OU environment.

* Base 99 Spe may seem not enough at a first glance, but we have to keep in mind that this is more than enough to have a fast U-Turn towards stall/semi-stall teams and a slow U-Turn towards HO ones. Towards HO teams it has even Extremespeed and/or a bulk good enough to tank a hit and retaliate.

* It has a good actual bulk (even with a detrimental nature) taking in account the many resistances and only one 4x weakness, which is easily exploitable (HP Fire mainly as a random coverage). I'd like to underline that it is neutral or resistant to every form of priority move.

* Download boost. This ability is a guaranteed +1 on one side of the spectrum and with an Expert Belt/LO/CBand/CSpecs the damage output really goes out of control. You can't always know if you'll have the right boost, but the fact you can switch in&out repeatedly throughout a match is really troublesome if you can't stop this Steel/Bug in time. It is too much consistent.
Keep in mind that most EV spreads around are thought specifically to not boost Genesect's Extremespeed or U-turn: this means that a boost on the right side of the spectrum is what this thing need to punch holes into your team.

* It has a deep movepool, both physical and special with plenty of items usable. Expert Belt itself, while often considered a poor choice, is good here to bluff a Choice item. All these points to say that this bug is really unpredictable and risks to overload its "checks" before being scouted. There is little counterplay possible.

There is literally no reason to avoid running Genesect, because it is a low risk-very high reward pokemon at the point it is overcentralizing. This monster isn't Aegislash-level, but still too much for OU.

the darkness persists forever

alright, this pokemon is broken as fuck. you can't even predict what sets it'll be using because there are too many sets of it. the problem is it has a good movepool, it learns moves such as thunderbolt, flamethrower, ice beam, techno blast, blaze kick, extreme speed, u-turn, iron head, bug buzz, hp ground, rock polish (which is a cool move to sweep in lategame for example). furthermore, you also struggle against it because of the item, i mean, you can't predict what item it will be bc it can run scarf, band with a strong prio aka extreme speed, or life orb (other variants like specs or expert belt are accepted too). another problem can be the ability download which can be threatening, raising the atk or spatk. this mon kinda has not counterplay, it has a good offensive typing too, and it can be threatening for the majority of the teams.

Am I the only one that thinks that Genesect benefits mainly from the indirect buff of moves such as U-Turn, Parting Shot and Baton Pass? Generally speaking, the existence of certain new metagame threats made those utility moves significantly more difficult to adapt into with insanely hard hitters such as the Tabus especially Tabu Lele, certain UBs including Celesteela, Greninja, Hoopa-U and, IMHO, the insanely buffed Dugtrio.

Not trying to shift the suspect topic to another suspect, but I feel that it is a bit to early to ban Genesect. Though I haven't experienced the Shift Gear set specificly but regarding the U-Turn arguments, I feel addressing the metagame threats is more relevant because of U-Turn forcing to look at Genesect in combination of its teammates since user of a Pokemon such as Heatran, which would normally be considered a counter, would still be pressured by the existence of opposing Dugtrio, Zygarde or Garchomp.

Nah seriously, as much as I love Genesect and (for one) think its beautiful against Lele and other threats that are savaging the OU metagame, the bottom line is that Genesect is way too unpredictable, and has boundless potential that can't be checked by one mon.

The standard reply to that is that Genesect does about two times as much damage with U-Turn since it has STAB and a potential Download boost. Also Genesect's movepool threatens more things, so a conservative player would switch something out, allowing the Genesect user to gain momentum.

The question is whether the meta has less Pokemon that Genesect could threaten with its coverage moves or U-Turn (and/or as a taboo has some broken Pokemon that it could threaten). (It is "taboo" since it is essentially a "broken" checking "broken" argument, but checking Tapu Lele is a good thing for me!)

For what its worth, specially defensive Celesteela is a good "check" for Genesect (i.e. Genesect cannot come in on it and threaten it if Genesect gets a free switch).

Scarf Genesect does threaten offense, but it is not so good against stall, but one may say that the viability of Scarf Genesect is what makes the other Genesect more insidious since it could surprise a more defensively oriented team. I am interested in what a stall player would say about playing against Choice Band Genesect.

That doesn't mean it's broken though. Every set it runs has a weakness. If it runs HP Ground to check it's checks, it's giving up another coverage slot. If it's choice well then just saddle up. Prediction isn't very hard. Rocky Helmet mons shut down U-Turn spam pretty well. Keep rocks on the field and he's taking about 28% each turn. That's not a sustainable pattern of living. Mixed non-choice sets are more difficult, especially if download rolls in it's favor. You're probably going to lose a Pokemon. But it's not perfect. It only has four moves slots and one of those is a choice. While a user on the first page said it doesn't suffer from 4MSS, I disagree it 100% does. This feels a lot like the Mence ban in late DPP which was fucking stupid. It's not an uncounterable Pokemon. It's good but it's mortal, just like the rest of OU. Do not ban.

The problem with genesect is his unpredictability. The insane amount of moves this mon can learn is ridiculous, which leads to the biggest problem, you have to build your whole team around it. It's not like adding one simple check or counter, such as toxapex for phero. We are talking about at least 2 or even 3 pokemons just to deal specifically with this thing. Sure, you are not going to use any gimmick mon or set, and these checks/counters will help you dealing with other stuff as well, but the problem is that it's so centralizing that you can't play around it until you know his set, which also leads to the problem of the switch-in you'll have to do to scout (and it might not be enough), since it's basically a coinflip. The teambuilding is so restrictive it makes me question the unbanning in the first place. Anyway, what's done is done, and now we have the chance to get rid of gene again. It's not the first time smogon bans something because of his unpredictability, but gene we have a mon that also has access to u-turn, which potentially makes you on the losing side of the game by losing momentum and slowly luring your team, good typing, nice defenses, insanely powerful ability (it also checks the evs spread of every mon you are using download into, which incredibly useful). There's no need to waste this opportunity, just ban this thing and we can move to a better (and i hope more balanced) metagame. This might make tapu lele even more powerful but as the council (and other people) said, that'll be a problem in the future, and we will deal with it at the right time.

2 or 3 pokemon to stop it, impossible to counter? Not really, Chandelure, A-Marowak and many other fire types can easily dispatch Genesect. The two I mentioned are additionally immune to Dugtrio's Arena Trap giving us pretty safe switch-ins. Plus, Genesect can take massive damage even from resisted hits and has no way to recover health, so it's not like he will come in on every moment to annoy you.

2 or 3 pokemon to stop it, impossible to counter? Not really, Chandelure, A-Marowak and many other fire types can easily dispatch Genesect. The two I mentioned are additionally immune to Dugtrio's Arena Trap giving us pretty safe switch-ins. Plus, Genesect can take massive damage even from resisted hits and has no way to recover health, so it's not like he will come in on every moment to annoy you.

I never said it's impossible to counter. I said that you have to run multiple mons to check or counter every one of his sets. Also, you can easily u-turn and switch in one of the many counters chandelure and marowak have, gaining momentum.

the flyest

2 or 3 pokemon to stop it, impossible to counter? Not really, Chandelure, A-Marowak and many other fire types can easily dispatch Genesect. The two I mentioned are additionally immune to Dugtrio's Arena Trap giving us pretty safe switch-ins. Plus, Genesect can take massive damage even from resisted hits and has no way to recover health, so it's not like he will come in on every moment to annoy you.

Am I the only one that thinks that Genesect benefits mainly from the indirect buff of moves such as U-Turn, Parting Shot and Baton Pass? Generally speaking, the existence of certain new metagame threats made those utility moves significantly more difficult to adapt into with insanely hard hitters such as the Tabus especially Tabu Lele, certain UBs including Celesteela, Greninja, Hoopa-U and, IMHO, the insanely buffed Dugtrio.

Not trying to shift the suspect topic to another suspect, but I feel that it is a bit to early to ban Genesect. Though I haven't experienced the Shift Gear set specificly but regarding the U-Turn arguments, I feel addressing the metagame threats is more relevant because of U-Turn forcing to look at Genesect in combination of its teammates since user of a Pokemon such as Heatran, which would normally be considered a counter, would still be pressured by the existence of opposing Dugtrio, Zygarde or Garchomp.

The increased effectiveness of Pivoting moves does not mean we shouldn't address Genesect. If anything, we should be touching on him BEFORE we look at something on a more general level like U-Turn. U-Turn was fair last Gen, Genesect (who includes U-Turn) was not; if U-Turn is now better, it's not necessarily ban worthy, but Genesect is better than his already ban worthy performance. He was always a momentum machine, the state of the metagame shifting away from hyper offense speed and priority of Gen 6 just makes the benefit of that much more obvious (whether or not it's objectively more valuable).

Beyond that, trapping was still a thing players could do last generation, MORE powerful as a strategy because of Shadow Tag, and Genesect was deemed broken/unhealthy before Hoopa-U or Genesect (as that was deemed ban worthy) existed in the metagame. Besides that, Genesect is clearly the more centralizing/influential of the things on the table, so he gets addressed first.

Besides that, we don't have reason to believe that U-Turn is broken yet, but have reason to believe (and this test to decide for sure) that Genesect is broken. Trying to ban/limit U-Turn before we get rid of Genesect under some mistaken impression that the move is what makes him broken is only a step away from suggesting things like banning King's Shield instead of Aegislash since U-Turn is not a signature move. There's no reason we should jump through hoops with the tiering policy on the off chance it keeps one Pokemon in OU, and that ordering goes against the fundamental aim of ideal banning: minimizing overall restriction. If Genesect is banned, the restriction is limited to Genesect; if U-Turn is banned or otherwise limited, you negatively impact the viability of half the tier, and that includes Genesect anyway. Better to ban a mon that's already proven broken in the past and showing the same signs again than to test a move on suspicion that meta trends broke it (as opposed to favoring it) and bring most of our mons as collateral damage. The latter case only occurred once with Baton Pass, which was still an extreme case that raised a lot of debate over whether the chains were the problem or it should have just been Scolipede at the time.

Genesect is the issue right now, raising the question of whether or not pivoting moves improved is just avoiding the question.

Even genesect has troubles against fire types(without water techno blast),and even sometimes download is useless, its very hard to deal with it:
-rock polish/shift gear variants can sweep easily with the right coverage(bolt beam;blaze kick;flamethrower;techno blast;...)
-with a choice scarf, it can easily clean(physical and special scarf are both good).
-Choice band genesect is also a thing, thanks to extreme speed.
-Mixed life orb and expert belt are viable and it can inflict huge damage, with download boost.
Every genesect's sets are good, and its impossible to have an answer to every genesect's sets at once.
Magnezone scarf+its chekcs are outsped by rock polish/shift gear/scarf variants.
Mega Venusaur cant counter it properly if it is weakened
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Genesect Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 226-266 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock(with download boost).
Chansey loses against physical variants...
dugtrio is useless against scarf genesect, it can u-turn out.
...

I think this guy here has hit the nail on the head. Oh and there's BlazeLatias at it as usual.

With that, I should also point out two things. 1) Note how it has this versatility without suffering from 4th moveslot syndrome, and 2) I disagree that LO is necessarily the best/most powerful set, But choice sca...

Moving swiftly along - I'd like to mention the glorified niche it has fact that it is the best Download mon in the game, due to being able to make use of it's 120/120 mixed offenses. Compare this with Porygon-Z, a mon that, if switched into a Special wall (see Chansey; Sp.Def Zapdos; Nihilego etc.) It'll end up with an attack boost it does nothing with, and you risk losing momentum. Genesect? Nope, that attack buff can be used towards U-turning out and gaining and/or retaining momentum. What i'm saying is, With that STAB and BoltBeam coverage (which is ubiquitously solid in itself), you easily screw over Physical walls like Foretress / PhysDef Celesteela and others by nabbing yourself a Sp.Atk boost and doing work from that (with the help of Scarf/SG/Rock Polish of course).

Now, this all sounds like your typical OU blanket mon... good coverage... good typing... blah blah blah... but ask yourselves this: Does it really lack in anything? If your answer is No, then I think you can see where i'm coming from. It might not seem banworthy at face value, but then you start clocking in the miles and you realize that this thing - weather it be win condition, cleanup or whatever, starts to become a problem. I'd normally defend mons such as Genesect (I mean... on the off chance that if, say, Hoopa-U or Tapu Koko end up on the chopping block - I'll be there with a giant 'Don't Ban' sign for those guys), and if this thing does end up staying in OU for once, and people adapt to it - I welcome this with open arms. Hell, if it doesn't get banned now it MIGHT get a second suspect, and it's meta might develop with... idk... Steelium Z / Z-Shift Gear / Z-Rock Polish, who knows?! If anything this just adds to it's versatility...

Tl;dr I realize that this thing isn't particularly healthy for the meta (ESPECIALLY the unstable state it's in atm), and that's it's probably for the best it get's banned from OU.

Before I end off: i'd also like to apologize for how I came across during the ORAS Mega Sableye suspect. As far as I was aware, I was just putting my two sense on the matter - and while I hadn't been playing ORAS that much, I was still curious about a few things, such as the seemingly late timing. Maybe being part of the post helped me to interpret that? Also if the posts normally get that heated then i'll keep that in mind. Anyway, I'm sorry if came across the wrong way - and I hope we can come to some kind of understanding.

There is a problem on what you said here: both Chandelure and Alolan Marowak don't have reliable recovery, so it is pretty simple pivoting out with U-turn and deal chip damage to them. If they are weakened enough, they can't check it anymore. P.S. Both these "checks" are outsped, bar Scarf Chandelure if Genesect isn't Scarfed itself.
A-Marowak also often doesn't even run Leftovers in order to abuse Thick Club, which is a CB without restrictions.

I feel that Genesect is in an awkward tier between OU and Uber, much like Greninja and Blaziken. In that if they went to Uber they would probably be horrid there. (How about an OU+ tier where these guys and Aegislash and etc are allowed?)

My argument for no-ban would be that, if unboosted, it does not have the power or speed (depending on item) to threaten a switch in outside of a predicted super-effective move due to un-STAB 90 BP moves and awkward speed tier. But this is pretty much all I have for no-ban.

For pro-ban, pretty much same as what have been mentioned. Choice Sets can abuse a strong U-Turn and Iron Head, but set-up sweepers sets can easily be wincon. Although many 'mons are also wincons if allowed to set up, non-choice sets can combine Download with whatever other tactical choices. But because using Download takes a bit of skill I'm on the fence about this.

Main argument tho, is that the meta has changed to now favor Genesect even more. All the fairies and darks and poison running around and getting resisted and/or hit super effectively by STAB. This is what I believed to have contributed to Genesect's versatility and more sets getting used - compared to just Scarf or LO sets to combat offensive and defensive teams respectively and being useless when fighting the opposite. Not that I like those meta changes, but if Genesect was banished to Ubers in the past, it is more appropriate that it be banished this time also.

Since I notice this being quoted... a 2x resisted U-Turn from Genesect has around the same power as a U-Turn from Mega Pidgeot without a Download or item boost, so it does decent damage as a pivoting move and against its counters. This power also makes it strong enough to be generally spammable and even kill things in the process, so chances are the bugger has already u-turned out when the counter is switched in. Even if not, Genesect can still outspeed and u-turn the next turn.

You must be tired

I feel that Genesect is in an awkward tier between OU and Uber, much like Greninja and Blaziken. In that if they went to Uber they would probably be horrid there. (How about an OU+ tier where these guys and Aegislash and etc are allowed?)

My argument for no-ban would be that, if unboosted, it does not have the power or speed (depending on item) to threaten a switch in outside of a predicted super-effective move due to un-STAB 90 BP moves and awkward speed tier. But this is pretty much all I have for no-ban.

For pro-ban, pretty much same as what have been mentioned. Choice Sets can abuse a strong U-Turn and Iron Head, but set-up sweepers sets can easily be wincon. Although many 'mons are also wincons if allowed to set up, non-choice sets can combine Download with whatever other tactical choices. But because using Download takes a bit of skill I'm on the fence about this.

Main argument tho, is that the meta has changed to now favor Genesect even more. All the fairies and darks and poison running around and getting resisted and/or hit super effectively by STAB. This is what I believed to have contributed to Genesect's versatility and more sets getting used - compared to just Scarf or LO sets to combat offensive and defensive teams respectively and being useless when fighting the opposite. Not that I like those meta changes, but if Genesect was banished to Ubers in the past, it is more appropriate that it be banished this time also.

2 or 3 pokemon to stop it, impossible to counter? Not really, Chandelure, A-Marowak and many other fire types can easily dispatch Genesect. The two I mentioned are additionally immune to Dugtrio's Arena Trap giving us pretty safe switch-ins. Plus, Genesect can take massive damage even from resisted hits and has no way to recover health, so it's not like he will come in on every moment to annoy you.

It does take 2-3 pokemon to check/counter it due to the unpredictability of its sets. Until its entire move pool for the match has been scouted you can't switch in to it without it punching a massive hole in your team. Say you want to switch in Alolan Marowak because you know it has u-turn and thunderbolt; thats fine except you still have to wonder what its other 2 moves are and you don't necessarly know what item it has outside of life orb (if its already attacked and dealt damage and taken its 10% from LO) and scarf (due to it outspeeding something it otherwise shouldn't), and if its running LO you're probably screwed anyway because of the coverage it gets by virtue of its massive move pool, It can still carry hp ground or u-turn out to a counter for A-Marowak. If it u-turns out you can't assume that it doesn't have hp ground or douse blast, especially if its taken some damage from priority or hazards. And thats another major point that people in favor of keeping it around are missing. It creates a mind game where the person using Genesect is always at an advantage. Does he use u-turn because he is choice locked? or is he using it because he doesn't have coverage? or does he fear a possible K.O. from a fire attack from my check/counter? there is no way of knowing or predicting what they will do until you have scouted it completely and even then you have to deal with all the checks and counters that they brought along to deal anything that would be able to take out Genesect. It requires consedirably more skill on the part of the opponent not using genesect to win or even have a chance of winning than it does for the player using genesect.

As for your argument about a safe switch in it is irrelevent because there are no safe switch ins. A-Marowak can absorb a thunderbolt sure, and it will take resisted damage from u-turn, but if it switches into anything else it takes a big hit. Then if the chosen move is U-turn and you switch in A-Marowak its not too bad since you only ate a resisted attack that won't hurt you too much or barely hurt you, but then your opponent switches to their counter for your check/counter to Genesect which forces you to either switch or lose your only counter/check to their momentum grabing monster. Either way its a lose/lose situation for the non-genesect player. You can sit there are argue that it can take massive damage from reseiseted hits and even neutral hits like Earthquake and won't be able to just freely switch, but that means very little as people won't be switching it in to take hits unless it is super resistant to them and even then they likely won't do that unless they have no other alternative. It grabs momentum and swings it in its user's favor early on, during the mid game, and can clean up in the late game. Every argument I see in favor of keeping it unbanned is paper thin and practically irrelevent when faced with the facts. Lets not forget that it can easily change its sets with the meta. If people start to run mainly fire types to counter it you can bet that its team will have dugtrio and hp ground at the ready to take them down or a nice strong water type that can counter those ghost and fire types that can't be trapped if they become too common along with thunderbolt being on practically every set. so then the meta will change again to counter that with strong ground types of their own like hippowdon, excadrill, landorus-T, etc... and then its team mates will switch to counter what it can't again or its sets will include ice beam or douse blast or hp water. So then you start to use steel types to counter it because they take neutral or resist almost everything, well then you have dugtrio and magnazone to deal with along with hp ground, blaze kick, flamethrower, etc...do you see where I'm going with this? Its so freaking flexible that it can adapt to anything the meta throws at it, that isn't a good thing! It should have at least one reliable counter (and even then it would still be broken) but it dosen't.

Genesect is BROKEN it is a fact that is not subject to opinion, you can delude yourself all you want (this goes for everyone not just for the person I quoted) but it will not change the fact that it is a broken mon that unbalences the metagame and quite frankly (in my opinion) sucks the fun out of playing. All you have to do is look at its stats, typing, and versatility to see this. Any counter play you imagine is non-existant outside of eleminating its teammates first.

That doesn't mean it's broken though. Every set it runs has a weakness. If it runs HP Ground to check it's checks, it's giving up another coverage slot. If it's choice well then just saddle up. Prediction isn't very hard. Rocky Helmet mons shut down U-Turn spam pretty well. Keep rocks on the field and he's taking about 28% each turn. That's not a sustainable pattern of living. Mixed non-choice sets are more difficult, especially if download rolls in it's favor. You're probably going to lose a Pokemon. But it's not perfect. It only has four moves slots and one of those is a choice. While a user on the first page said it doesn't suffer from 4MSS, I disagree it 100% does. This feels a lot like the Mence ban in late DPP which was fucking stupid. It's not an uncounterable Pokemon. It's good but it's mortal, just like the rest of OU. Do not ban.

No, it actually doesn't. This is the same problem that early ORAS had with Greninja and mid-ORAS with Hoopa-U. I feel that Genesect actually benefits from its "4MSS."

Before I even get to that, all Genesect even really needs for most of its sets (besides Rock Polish/Shift Gear sets) is U-Turn and Iron Head for the most part. It's most likely going to just keep spamming U-Turn early-mid game before its checks are down for the count, which is a huge reason why it's a busted OU mon, something I don't think a lot of people are taking in to account. Saying that "Rocky Helmet mons" are the answer means each and every team in this metagame is forced to run one or two of these items on their teams to even stand a chance in this Genesect metagame, an item that not every team archetype can afford to run.

Anyways, back to its "4MSS." Many people on the pro-ban side have been saying that it's unpredictable due to its really wide movepool, and I have to agree. Once you figure out its 4 moves, it's most likely going to be too late to stop it. Greninja and Hoopa-U in ORAS had "4MSS issues" and look where they ended up in the end, and both of them had worse bulk overall and typings than Genesect does. The best thing to do when running a Genesect team these days is building said Genesect last or second-to-last on the team builder, giving it the coverage moves that your team is missing? Not enough things to hit Dragons/Lando-T? Ice Beam. Ferrothorn/Scizor giving you trouble? Flamethrower/Blaze Kick. Mantine/Pelipper being a little tough to break down? Thunderbolt. Team missing out on priority options? Give this fucker a Choice Band and Extreme Speed. You get the picture.

Genesect benefits from its 4MSS because it could potentially run any of its viable coverage moves and the opponent will have no idea what they are until it's too late. I've seen plenty more Shiny Genesects on the ladder to bluff Choice Band when it was actually Scarfed/E-Belt. That's what it's come to now. Ban.

You can just run a lure set and beat all your counters. Or use Dugtrio and beat most of them, lets get this thing out of here.

On a side note, with the best steel in the metagame gone, Tapu Lele will be even worse than usual on the suspect ladder. When do we ban that? I think I have to ladder for this, don't want another generation to slip past me before I bother to get involved.

formerly JoycapJoshST

Tbh I've never understood the notion that a mon's viability in ubers is somehow a bad or irrelevant argument. It's as if we're deleting mons like Gren/Aegi from the competitive game just because they're a little bit too powerful for the tier most people play (I mean it's 'Overused', I get that...). If they're a little too powerful for OU - fine, but sending them to the 'tier' that makes them seem blatantly parallel to 650BST+ Box legendaries and thinking that that is an efficient 'solution' is a bit ridiculous. In fact...

I feel that Genesect is in an awkward tier between OU and Uber, much like Greninja and Blaziken. In that if they went to Uber they would probably be horrid there. (How about an OU+ tier where these guys and Aegislash and etc are allowed?)

My argument for no-ban would be that, if unboosted, it does not have the power or speed (depending on item) to threaten a switch in outside of a predicted super-effective move due to un-STAB 90 BP moves and awkward speed tier. But this is pretty much all I have for no-ban.

For pro-ban, pretty much same as what have been mentioned. Choice Sets can abuse a strong U-Turn and Iron Head, but set-up sweepers sets can easily be wincon. Although many 'mons are also wincons if allowed to set up, non-choice sets can combine Download with whatever other tactical choices. But because using Download takes a bit of skill I'm on the fence about this.

Main argument tho, is that the meta has changed to now favor Genesect even more. All the fairies and darks and poison running around and getting resisted and/or hit super effectively by STAB. This is what I believed to have contributed to Genesect's versatility and more sets getting used - compared to just Scarf or LO sets to combat offensive and defensive teams respectively and being useless when fighting the opposite. Not that I like those meta changes, but if Genesect was banished to Ubers in the past, it is more appropriate that it be banished this time also.

wwenze may I ask if you think that Genesect is actually viable in ubers? I know what the answer is, in a way - but I'd just like to double check.

If yes - then we have nothing to fear by banning Genesect. If no, see above - and if, say, it only has a niche role... well, we ARE talking of banning this thing to a meta of braindead legends that any 2-bit wanker 1-dimensional nobody could spam and find results. Having a 'niche' in such a tier is basically irrelevant IMO (see, again, Gren/Aegi and others).

You must be tired

Tbh I've never understood the notion that a mon's viability in ubers is somehow a bad or irrelevant argument. It's as if we're deleting mons like Gren/Aegi from the competitive game just because they're a little bit too powerful for the tier most people play (I mean it's 'Overused', I get that...). If they're a little too powerful for OU - fine, but sending them to the 'tier' that makes them seem blatantly parallel to 650BST+ Box legendaries and thinking that that is an efficient 'solution' is a bit ridiculous. In fact...

wwenze may I ask if you think that Genesect is actually viable in ubers? I know what the answer is, in a way - but I'd just like to double check.

If yes - then we have nothing to fear by banning Genesect. If no, see above - and if, say, it only has a niche role... well, we ARE talking of banning this thing to a meta of braindead legends that any 2-bit wanker 1-dimensional nobody could spam and find results. Having a 'niche' in such a tier is basically irrelevant IMO (see, again, Gren/Aegi and others).

it's an irrelevant argument because the tiers aren't designed to make sure that every pokemon has a niche to fill. Wynaut was uber in 4th gen, but you're not going to see it topping in any dppt ubers tours.

Ubers is a banlist that happens to work out well enough to be a tier.

When a pokemon gets banned from UU and becomes BL, the tier doesn't care about whether the pokemon will be "good" in the OU tier. We saw this with Hawlucha last gen. People participating in OU's tiering shouldn't even consider Ubers when making their decisions because it's irrelevant to whether Genesect is broken in OU or not

I COULD BE BANNED!

There's not much that you can really say about Gene that hasn't already been said numerous times in every other suspect Gene has had, so I'm going to keep this brief. It's incredibly versatile largely due to its great typing/coverage/ability/stats. The main problem I've always seen with Gene is that though; it can be slapped out any team without any thought and will probably win more games than any other Pokemon on that team. It's ability to just u-turn out on anything that switches into it means that as long as you can spam volt-turn you are always going to have the momentum in your favour. The +1 STAB u-turn is also going to do considerable chip damage to most things not named heatran.

Common OU walls like celesteela, ferro and toxapex can take hits from gene but then there's always the risk that it's not the scarf set (shift gear/rp) which means gene sets up and drives a bus through your team (blaze kick/flamethrower/tbolt coverage). Gene also has access to +2 priority in the form of espeed which is in many cases enough to clean up in the lategame.

It's likely that banning gene will lead to tapu lele being even more prominent but right now I think the tier stands to benefit more from the absence of gene than its continued usage.

tldr: Why are we not just quickbanning this? Have we learnt nothing from previous gens?

formerly JoycapJoshST

it's an irrelevant argument because the tiers aren't designed to make sure that every pokemon has a niche to fill. Wynaut was uber in 4th gen, but you're not going to see it topping in any dppt ubers tours.

Ubers is a banlist that happens to work out well enough to be a tier.

When a pokemon gets banned from UU and becomes BL, the tier doesn't care about whether the pokemon will be "good" in the OU tier. We saw this with Hawlucha last gen. People participating in OU's tiering shouldn't even consider Ubers when making their decisions because it's irrelevant to whether Genesect is broken in OU or not

Well maybe that's what ABR meant by a change in how we think of the tiers. Think about that joke Gira-O suspect last year... that thing turned out to be less broken then we thought (though probably still not ideal in a tier such as OU) - you don't think the potential is there?

I may be pro-ban when it comes to Genesect, but i'd feel a lot more committal about it if we got things like this cleared up. I'm sure all of us would appreciate it as well.

I know this isn't necessarily the right place to ask this, and I asked it in the simple question thread and no one responded, but I know people in this forum will have the answer. How do you calculate your COIL on the suspect ladder? And is it true you only can play a maximum of 70 games to reach a COIL of 2700?

So this post is a bit more on topic, here are my (brief) two cents on Genesect. I don't support many of Smogon's bans and I don't like how during every suspect test people base their entire argument on whether or not the suspect has counters. For example, BW Hydriegon had no counters, but it was nowhere near broken. SM Genesect is countered by Heatran, but it is definitely broken. Yes, Heatran is counter to all viable sets. But what about douse drive? Douse Drive Genesect is not a viable set because when Genesect enters the battle, the chat on Pokemon Showdown says Genesect (Douse Drive). Don't believe me? Try it. I did. Therefore, your opponent will know you are using Douse Drive Genesect and you won't lure in Heatran at all, which is the purpose of the set. Anyways, I want Genesect banned because it is so easy to throw the scarf set onto any team and check a large majority of the tier just like Aegislash. Genesect's steel typing and decent defenses gives it plenty if chances to switch it, force the other pokemon out, and grab easy momentum with U-Turn. The fact that Genesect has Download and a variety of great coverage options that can be tailored to it's team makes this scarf set even more deadly. On top of this, Genesect can run a great Choice Band set with access to priority in Extreme Speed and a hard hitting U-Turn. It even can run a Shift Gear set as well if you really want to catch your opponents off guard.

What makes Genesect broken is how easily it can be thrown onto teams, switch into common pokemon thanks to it's typing and decent defenses, scare those pokemon out due to scarf and incredible versatility in coverage options, then grab easy momentum with a relatively hard hitting U-Turn.

Because you could play around Hydriegon much easier than you can Genesect, not to mention it had multipul weaknesses and it could be out speed since it predomenatly used choice specs or life orb. Where as Genesect has better stats, a larger move pool, can compensate for its weaknesses and essentialy takes away any notion of creativity and the whole meta is starting to centralize around it. Don't forget that Hydriegon dosen't and did not do everything that Genesect does and its sets are fairly predictable and had many common weaknesses in fighting, ice, and dragon.

formerly JoycapJoshST

Because you could play around Hydriegon much easier than you can Genesect, not to mention it had multipul weaknesses and it could be out speed since it predomenatly used choice specs or life orb. Where as Genesect has better stats, a larger move pool, can compensate for its weaknesses and essentialy takes away any notion of creativity and the whole meta is starting to centralize around it. Don't forget that Hydriegon dosen't and did not do everything that Genesect does and its sets are fairly predictable and had many common weaknesses in fighting, ice, and dragon.

2) Can we actually call Genesect centralizing, so much as we're aware of how unstable the S&M meta is atm? As far as i'm aware - people have been shaking their heads in regards to what was let back into OU more then we consider Genesect 'centeralising' (And yes, it's the reason we're starting to ban some of them, in which i'm grateful we're taking the time to do... but I digress.).