NEW MH17 SENSATION: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets.

As with any crime, and this is a crime, cui bono? Who benefits from the bringing down of the plane and the loss of life?

As of today, we have three candidates. Ukrainian national forces , the break away Ukraine forces and Russia.

Ukraine has the means and the motive. They have the missile system necessary and the fact they point the finger at rebel forces to bring in help from
the and NATO would be a strong motive.

The rebel forces have, apparantly, captured in June BUK missile systems. If this is true they too have capability to bring down the aircraft.
Their motive for doing this however, I don't know. Was it a warning to the west that they have the capability and they're not afraid to use it? Are
there elements out of control within the rebels forces?

Bringing down a plane full of civilians wasn't going to win friends and influence people towards their cause.
Maybe it was just bad luck, they have the technology but havn't been trained so they saw a plane on radar and let rip thinking it was from the
Ukraine airforce as has been put forward over the last month.

Russia has the technology to bring down the plane and the trained operatives to do it.
If so, how could they have mistaken the signal of a civilian aircraft for a military one. As both the rebels and the Ukraine national forces are both
pointing the finger at each other its hard to know the truth.

Hopefully the contents of the black box will she some light on the matter.

Whoevers to blame for the deaths of the civilians should be tried for war cimes.

If you believe the early info, they had already shot down a couple of Ukrainian aircraft and thought the airliner was a transport plane. In that case,
they had the motive, but made a mistake. There was no motive to take down a passenger plane, but every motive to take down a Ukrainian military craft.

originally posted by: andy1972
The rebel forces have, apparantly, captured in June BUK missile systems. If this is true they too have capability to bring down the aircraft.
Their motive for doing this however, I don't know. Was it a warning to the west that they have the capability and they're not afraid to use it? Are
there elements out of control within the rebels forces?

The other possibility no one talks about is misiedentification of the civilian plane.

The weird part -

Taking responsibility for accidentally downing a civilian airliner would have been more palatable in the sense that those situations happen. To do
what is occurring takes the incident to a level where it would be almost impossible for any party involved to rebound from the incident and the
outrage that followed about the crash sites and the body issues.

It would have also been, imo, the safest route with regards to the economies of those players.

I still believe pro russian rebels are directly responsible. That is based on the social media items they posted. Others have tried to dismiss those
tweets as something other than whats claimed. The issue with that is the same twitter account was used for the other shoot downs of Ukrainian
military aircraft.

I think Russia is responsible to the point of supplying the weapons to pro russian rebels. The issue the rebels have now is the replacement of
Ukraine rebel leaders with those from Russia / Moscow.By sending military equipment to the rebels and also supplying Russian commanders moves the pro
russian rebels from rebels to russian irregulars.

Russia is trying to play both sides of the fence now. I think the shoot down put Putin into the position of damned if he does and damned if he
don't.

Not concrete. But it would depend on when the account was created and whatever claims were made on it previously. The only claim we know of, or that
has been publicized (that I am aware of) was that of having shot down a Ukrainian cargo plane.

In either case, it is not concrete, but in the case above it would be very strong circumstantial evidence if there had been a history of usage by the
separatists of the twitter account.

One of the locals were interviewed in the first few days, they specifically mentioned that they heard the airplane make a loud noise then an
explosion.

Sounds to me like the pilots saw it at the last second and immediately pushed the engines to full power for evasion

poor bastards, two pilots, probably sipping coffee, one at the controls, the other pottering around the cockpit.. real quite and routine like..a pilot
notices a white line emerging from the horizon, by the time he realizes its a missile its too late, its exploding 50ft in front of him and shredding
the cockpit with shrapnel.

Imagine the poor fella who had to pick up the radio and tell his superior he just shot down a commercial airliner

People need to remember that any numbers given by manufactures are always on the "safe side" and a/c can regularly exceed them. Also with very
little mods aircraft's of this type can be made to easily bypass the specs. Since such an attack would be planed in advanced it is not too much to
think that such a aircraft had been adapted for this roll and indeed had been chosen for the roll as every one says because of its specs it could not
do it.
I have seen older European jet fighters fitted with Russian air to air missiles something not in the a/c specs. A perfect a/c to use since every one
says it cant do it. The main gun could also be changed to one more use full in a/c to a/c. I think the point we should think about is who has the most
to gain by shooting the airliner down

So the Ukrainians were in charge all the way from when the pilots were given their flight plan, until the plane crashed? Because their flight plan
was slightly north of there, and their actual flight path over that area, started all the way back in Amsterdam. That would mean that the Ukrainians
were controlling the plane from take off.

Moderators are members too and as such are as much entitled to an opinion as you are, and are just as entitled to express that opinion in any thread
we choose as you are. I am not posting as a moderator, I am posting as a member, just as you are.

If the USA had anything they would be shouting it from the rooftops. In a way we should be thankful that Putin is too astute to rise to the baiting.
Wouldn't it be nice if, just for once, a bunch of countries got together and sanctioned America?

No, they didn't. The flight requested to climb to 35,000 feet, but was told to stay at 33,000 feet. You can see all that in the tracking data.
They were at 33,000 long before they ever entered into Ukrainian control. Two thousand feet wouldn't have made the tiniest bit of difference as to
whether it was shot down or not.

Fair enough although the flight plan may have included that flight elevation.

I have no problem with the idea that a group of Eastern Ukrainians may have shot down that plane by mistake. It is a war zone after all. It is all the
other stuff...the false denouncing...the demonizing...the drum beating.

What has America become? The policeman that kneels or your back whilst screaming calm down sir...then rifles your pockets and fits you up...oops sorry
thats foreign policy.

Moderators are members too and as such are as much entitled to an opinion as you are, and are just as entitled to express that opinion in any thread
we choose as you are. I am not posting as a moderator, I am posting as a member, just as you are.

If this is so then you cannot use your moderator title, just something to think about, also noone with moderator powers should be aloud to express
there own views on the site they moderate.

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