Wasn't there a recent thread were an investigative journalist claims he has evidence that multiple residents tried to intervene, and there were dozens of calls to the police? The police dispatcher and the watch captain screwed things up so badly that the cops didn't arrive until the next day. The NYPD covered up their own incompetence by claiming the "heartless" residents never called them.

Sgt Otter:Wasn't there a recent thread were an investigative journalist claims he has evidence that multiple residents tried to intervene, and there were dozens of calls to the police? The police dispatcher and the watch captain screwed things up so badly that the cops didn't arrive until the next day. The NYPD covered up their own incompetence by claiming the "heartless" residents never called them.

Sgt Otter:Wasn't there a recent thread were an investigative journalist claims he has evidence that multiple residents tried to intervene, and there were dozens of calls to the police? The police dispatcher and the watch captain screwed things up so badly that the cops didn't arrive until the next day. The NYPD covered up their own incompetence by claiming the "heartless" residents never called them.

I get from the article that this was somehow a big deal, but why? What was so special? Was it just something like Adam Walsh or Etan..whatever his last name was? Just some random thing that caught? shiat like this happens every farking day. Why, 50 years on, is it still apparently a thing?

robohobo:I get from the article that this was somehow a big deal, but why? What was so special? Was it just something like Adam Walsh or Etan..whatever his last name was? Just some random thing that caught? shiat like this happens every farking day. Why, 50 years on, is it still apparently a thing?

The Kitty Genovese murder got caught in a cultural echo chamber because of the "38 people watched and did nothing" allegation--sort of the first cultural meme. The whole nation went bugf*ck at the idea that a young girl could be raped and murdered in full view of 38 people who--so the story eventually became--never even called the police!!! (emphasis in original) Studies were done and the so-called "bystander effect" was created and sociologists opined that this was the first sign of the urban anomie plaguing America or whatever. Of course, the reality is way more complex, and yet much more simple.

In reality, yes, 38 people had some knowledge of the attack, in that they "heard something"--i.e. a woman screaming or calling for help; but it was late at night and the attack wasn't in plain view, so by the time anyone got to a window, there was nothing to see. Mosley carried out his assault in a doorway or hallway, if memory serves. A police canvas of the area the next day confirmed that between 20-40 people "heard something" which was where the "38 people" figure came from. Exactly one man admitted to yelling out the window at Mosley "Leave that girl alone," at some point during the attack, at which point Mosley left. Unfortunately for Genovese, he came back and finished her off a few minutes later. Obviously, someone DID call the cops; they arrived shortly after Genovese expired. Neighbors couldn't provide much information, because there hadn't been anything to see.

Much like ITGs today who are just sure that THEY would be able to take down a crazed mall shooter with unerring precision and cool demeanor, people in 1964 were convinced that THEY would have heard everything, called the police immediately and then gone at once to Genovese's aid; so nobody could understand how (once the press got through with the story) 38 people could stand and watch a woman being raped and murdered in cold blood and not lift a finger to help. Of course, the press was no more accurate then than they are today, so that wasn't the true story, but ever since, "Kitty Genovese's Murder" has been a catch phrase for people standing around watching and doing nothing as a crime is committed.

Gyrfalcon:robohobo: I get from the article that this was somehow a big deal, but why? What was so special? Was it just something like Adam Walsh or Etan..whatever his last name was? Just some random thing that caught? shiat like this happens every farking day. Why, 50 years on, is it still apparently a thing?

The Kitty Genovese murder got caught in a cultural echo chamber because of the "38 people watched and did nothing" allegation--sort of the first cultural meme. The whole nation went bugf*ck at the idea that a young girl could be raped and murdered in full view of 38 people who--so the story eventually became--never even called the police!!! (emphasis in original) Studies were done and the so-called "bystander effect" was created and sociologists opined that this was the first sign of the urban anomie plaguing America or whatever. Of course, the reality is way more complex, and yet much more simple.

In reality, yes, 38 people had some knowledge of the attack, in that they "heard something"--i.e. a woman screaming or calling for help; but it was late at night and the attack wasn't in plain view, so by the time anyone got to a window, there was nothing to see. Mosley carried out his assault in a doorway or hallway, if memory serves. A police canvas of the area the next day confirmed that between 20-40 people "heard something" which was where the "38 people" figure came from. Exactly one man admitted to yelling out the window at Mosley "Leave that girl alone," at some point during the attack, at which point Mosley left. Unfortunately for Genovese, he came back and finished her off a few minutes later. Obviously, someone DID call the cops; they arrived shortly after Genovese expired. Neighbors couldn't provide much information, because there hadn't been anything to see.

Much like ITGs today who are just sure that THEY would be able to take down a crazed mall shooter with unerring precision and cool demeanor, people in 1964 were convinced that THEY would have heard everythi ...

Thanks for explanation. This was 15 years before my time and I've never heard of her, I don't think, before tonight. If I did, it was just some passing comment. Reading the wiki now.

As an aside, I would think shiat like this has gone down forever, and it was largely people just being people. Who knows, though.

I am not one of "those guys," but in Oregon, I would have probably shot that guy two or three times to put him down. In New York City, that is not really a good legal option (and I am not criticizing NYC for its strict gun laws).

The incident is really a police incompetence cover-up. There was no police foot patrol, so they had to blame the public. Basic policing in the past, two patrolmen on a circuit. But this was the leaded gas and air era, most people were a little damaged.

Christopher Columbus did not discover America, The Roanoke Colony did not just vanish mysteriously, the American Civil War was not about slavery, a cow did not start the Great Chicago Fire, Rosa Parks wasn't some old lady who was just too tired to give up her bus seat. and 40 people did not go to their windows and do nothing while Kitty Genovese was being murdered right in front of their eyes.

Christopher Columbus did not discover America, The Roanoke Colony did not just vanish mysteriously, the American Civil War was not about slavery, a cow did not start the Great Chicago Fire, Rosa Parks wasn't some old lady who was just too tired to give up her bus seat. and 40 people did not go to their windows and do nothing while Kitty Genovese was being murdered right in front of their eyes.

Christopher Columbus did not discover America, The Roanoke Colony did not just vanish mysteriously, the American Civil War was not about slavery, a cow did not start the Great Chicago Fire, Rosa Parks wasn't some old lady who was just too tired to give up her bus seat. and 40 people did not go to their windows and do nothing while Kitty Genovese was being murdered right in front of their eyes.

f*cking sheeple.

So, she lived? They heard the attack, her cries for help, they intervened, and she survived?

/Also, "the American Civil War was not about slavery?" Seriously? The only farking 'states right' that was involved was the right to keep slaves.

saintstryfe:Only one person saw the attacker with her, and he believed the confrontation ended. The attacker came back.

So nobody helped. That's pretty much the take-away on this. She was attacked, people knew she was being attacked, and she was left to die. That they weren't actually standing there watching the attack is cold comfort.

calbert:Christopher Columbus did not discover America, The Roanoke Colony did not just vanish mysteriously, the American Civil War was not about slavery, a cow did not start the Great Chicago Fire, Rosa Parks wasn't some old lady who was just too tired to give up her bus seat. and 40 people did not go to their windows and do nothing while Kitty Genovese was being murdered right in front of their eyes.

It wasn't only about slavery, but slavery was by far the most important issue. People who deny that aren't heroically striking down widely held falsehoods, they're historical revisionists.

No it isn't. People heard screaming outside and called the cops. Nobody charged out to confront a knife-wielding murderer (not that they even knew there was a murder happening - nobody could actually see the attack), that doesn't make them terrible people.

The take-away is that you shouldn't believe everything you see on the news.

Gunther:Harry_Seldon: I am not one of "those guys," but in Oregon, I would have probably shot that guy two or three times to put him down.

You are exactly one of "those guys" if by "those guys" you mean "internet tough guy".

Dunno, never been put in the situation. I only have one weapon, but I am not that experienced with it. It is a Ruger LCR double action revolver with a front sight. I spent six years in the Army (it's been a while), so I have some weapons training. My ex-wife of ten years is a deputy sheriff, and she kept me in practice. She probably would have no trouble, but then again, she would have probably beat the crap out of him with her baton. She had more practice with that when she worked in county jail.

Good reason not to live in a big city. The people suck, and you'll turn into one of them eventually.

I've lived in both Manhattan and Chicago. I met a lot of good, decent people. But I also saw a shiat-ton of 'looking the other way' while I was scoffed at for stepping in. Nothing so crazy as this story, though. Having lived in smalltown Kansas for a long while now, this shiat would NOT pass. Cops in my town have a less than a 90 second response rate. Also, dogs. Dogs everywhere. Hard to get away with shiat when everyone has dogs. Even the terrified of guns crowd like dogs. No better alarm system.

God-is-a-Taco:cig-mkr: Wow, that was fifty years ago? I remember when that story was the big news. '64 was the year I graduated HS.People were really disgusted withthat story.

Do you have any interesting anecdotes?I'm serious. It'd be interesting to hear a first-hand account of the gossip for this.

Not really, everyone knew the cops were corrupt, not only in NY, but all over the country. Hell, anyone could get a ticket fixed for a few bucks and most of them were on the take. Oh yea, the newspapers went BS about how the people in NY just didn't give a crap about anyone. It really was quite the black eye for NYPD.

robohobo:Boojum2k: Gunther: People heard screaming outside and called the cops.

And left a woman bleeding and time for the attacker to come back and finish the job. Yay.

It doesn't make them good people, either.

It does make them average city dwellers, though.

They called the cops! Why in hell should anyone risk their life to save a woman who was doing a fine job of risking her own life as it was. Thank goodness none of the citizens had guns to help her out. In 1964, people didn't kill people, lousy police dispatchers did.

Boojum2k:And left a woman bleeding and time for the attacker to come back and finish the job. Yay.

Again, they just heard screams. There weren't any windows that overlooked where the murder took place. They called the cops but they didn't rush out into the unknown to confront potentially multiple armed criminals (as far as they knew) and they've been publicly shamed for not doing so for 50 years.

Gunther:Again, they just heard screams. There weren't any windows that overlooked where the murder took place.

And again, the long time story is that they knew she was being attacked and did nothing to help. Which is true. Calling the cops didn't help her. I doubt their years of shame have hurt more than one of her knife wounds.

FTAKevin Cook, author of "Kitty Genovese: The Murder, the Bystanders, the Crime That Changed America," argues that only a few neighbors saw enough of the attack to understand much of what was going on, and some of them tried to help.

Everyone assumes they'd be great in a crisis - most people aren't. I guess I find it hard to judge them as harshly as you do for not charging out into the night and karate-chopping the knife-wielding murderer into submission.

The way this story has always been portrayed in the media is that 38 neighbors watched her get murdered and did nothing. In reality it was very different - even your own quote says that only a few neighbors had an idea of what was happening and of those, some tried to help.

cig-mkr:God-is-a-Taco: cig-mkr: Wow, that was fifty years ago? I remember when that story was the big news. '64 was the year I graduated HS.People were really disgusted withthat story.

Do you have any interesting anecdotes?I'm serious. It'd be interesting to hear a first-hand account of the gossip for this.

Not really, everyone knew the cops were corrupt, not only in NY, but all over the country. Hell, anyone could get a ticket fixed for a few bucks and most of them were on the take. Oh yea, the newspapers went BS about how the people in NY just didn't give a crap about anyone. It really was quite the black eye for NYPD.

Ooooh, I totally forgot about getting tickets fixed - haven't gotten a ticket in 30+ years.

Everyone assumes they'd be great in a crisis - most people aren't. I guess I find it hard to judge them as harshly as you do for not charging out into the night and karate-chopping the knife-wielding murderer into submission.

The way this story has always been portrayed in the media is that 38 neighbors watched her get murdered and did nothing. In reality it was very different - even your own quote says that only a few neighbors had an idea of what was happening and of those, some tried to help.

Wikipedia has a good write-up on it. One woman held Kitty after the second attack and waited with her for the ambulance, and the first call to the police occurred after that second attack. At least a dozen people decided it was a "lover's quarrel" or a drunk, and claimed they didn't see any wounds. Apparently being stabbed in the back doesn't make you bleed in NYC.No, really, apart from Sophia Farrar and Karl Ross, the roughly dozen people who saw her either being attacked or between attacks, and the neighbors who tuned out the sounds of a woman screaming, deserve all the scorn they have received and will continue to receive. Moseley got to attack her twice with no one helping her.

I don't know if it was this case in particular, but was a lot of the following media hype being pushed by the Helen Lovejoy types? Something to the effect of "this is TV destroying the morality of our nation, in action!". Or pushing the idea that people were now unable to distinguish between real situations that needed intervention, and acted scenes?