It’s a sign of how bizarrely we journalists have “normalized” Donald Trump — and how unprepared reporters are to tackle the Trump phenomenon — that we’re discussing whether or not the debate moderator tonight should fact-check him.

Baked into the conversation is the unstated assumption (by reporters, not by editorial writers) that Trump will lie, that he will say factually untrue things deliberately over and over. It’s an assumption based not on political bias, but on what we’ve observed over the last year. Yet journalists don’t clarify this for the audience.

We don’t turn to the camera and say, “We’re struggling with this because we have a candidate here who is behaving in completely new ways, violating long established boundaries not only of decorum and civility, but also of honesty.”

We know factually that Mr. Trump supported the Iraq War. He is on record doing so. The video exists. Yet he continues to claim that he opposed the invasion from the outset, in contrast with Hillary Clinton who voted to support military action.

We know factually that Mr. Trump is perfectly within his legal rights and would suffer no penalty from the IRS if he released his income tax records. Yet he continues to claim that an IRS audit now underway precludes him from disclosing his financial record.

We don’t say bluntly and simply that Mr. Trump is lying when he argues that the President of the United States was born outside the United States or when he says that America’s taxes rank among the highest in the world.

Instead, we reporters have fallen into the habit of talking nervously in our own code speak about Trump and his “whoppers” or his “questionable claims” or, in this case, debating whether or not he should be fact-checked in real time during a debate.

But we shouldn’t be in the business of jargon and code. We should be in the business of reporting accurately on what we observe.

In this case, there is a very real possibility that significant amounts of Donald Trump’s argument tonight will be based on factually false claims, about himself, about the world, about history.

It won’t be the usual spin or fudgery that we expect from politicians. Hillary Clinton has done what we expect from politicians, spinning up her accomplishments as a New York Senator and Secretary of State, while minimizing her errors and missteps.

Did Clinton attempt to downplay the significance of the email scandal? Sure. And journalists should report on that aggressively. Indeed, we have done so. And obviously, if Clinton tells a whopper of her own tonight – contradicting known facts – she should be called on it.

But what we’ve seen from Donald Trump, steadily and consistently, is different by orders of magnitude. We’ve seen the echoing of out-right lies and conspiracy theories and demonstrably false personal attacks, repeated by the Republican nominee over and over even after they’ve been fact-checked and corrected by independent observers and repudiated by members of his own party.

It’s a game-changer. It’s unprecedented. And I think we reporters should be much, much more transparent about the fact that this will look like a typical debate and sometimes sound like a typical debate, but in fact something very new and different is happening here.

We need to portray this accurately in real time, not because we’re biased against Trump, but because our job is to report on the real world not some artificial version of “balance.”

In the absence of that kind of reporting, voters need to bring their own awareness, skepticism and sharp memories to tonight’s event.

Maybe we’ll see something different. Maybe Donald Trump will speak factually and accurately about his own record supporting the Iraq War or about his role in promoting the racist conspiracy theory known as “birtherism.”

But if Trump lies about these things — or about his philanthropy, his taxes, about Hillary Clinton starting the “birther movement” or about his many factually documented business failures — the audience should be ready to go it alone.

We’ve learned that American journalism is a clumsy and broadly inaccurate tool for telling the story of Mr. Trump.

So tonight’s debate will be an exercise in “viewer beware,” both when it comes to the Republican nominee and his factual accuracy, and the framing of him by our media culture.

NCPR Blogs

User Options

55 Comments on “When you watch tonight’s debate, remember this”

The bigger questions are, what do we want our country to look like 10 or 20 years from now? What should Constitutional Governance really look like? Can we reach widespread prosperity and societal comfort through an increasingly growing Administrative State? These are just a few serious considerations. If you strip out “feelings” and emotions, and objectively evaluate our Great Nation’s path, then ask how can we accomplish a graceful renaissance?

Brian’s stance is clear, and bordering on propaganda (go to your safe space now Brian). Allow me to expound and clarify:
1) Regarding the Iraq war, the American populace was intentionally duped on the need for this war based on false intelligence. Trump was duped too.
2) Regarding Income Tax records, why is this an issue? There is no requirement for a candidate to disclose them, and a businessman uses many tactics and strategies, that are allowed under a voluminous and confusing tax code, to secure their “net worth” value. Tax lawyers, and their preparation of returns, is a competitive business advantage, and should be disclosed only voluntarily. Note: Trump will be the first to admit that the Tax Code needs to be overhauled; he knows it well and understands its disparity.
3)The wall: France is building one now, Israel has built one. Mexico has one on their southern border. The United States needed one 30 years ago. Mexico will pay for one, through reduction or forced redirection of Foreign Aid.
4) Clinton’s e-mail scandal: It’s is time to dust off the definitions of Sedition and Treason, both capital offenses. She has committed seditious and treasonous acts, acts that others in our nation have paid the price for, and so should she. She is uncategorically dishonest.

We need an acute change in our governance. I, like you, wish we had better options, but Trump is eminently more qualified to lead out nation into prosperity, and out of the atmosphere of the fear, anger, hostility, and angst that has be perpetrated upon us for nearly the last generation.

I wonder though, why is it a question of ‘should’ and not ‘why haven’t you.’ “You” being the media.

I know with trump it is almost an out and out lie every time he talks…but most politicians stretch the truth and a lot of places will fact check after the fact… but why not not move on until the facts are clearly stated, showing trump is lying.. show the video

And why for politicians.. NPR interviewed a farmer in Georgia this morning and they kept stepping away and saying — that has been proved to not be true. They did that after the fact and I think part to not confront the interviewee with facts….or more to the point, his words were wrong… but why

We know assume that if you don’t correct a lie, most people will know it is wrong

But you should correct…

If a person says that yellow time is blue

you correct it for the people who are colorblind and don’t know better
and you correct it so you can point out it is a lie.

Of course trump lies, he thinks if he says he is right.. he wins.. and for many of those in the basket with him, that is fine.. they don’t care, they wanna believe.

It is the same with the dog whistle. trump is pandering to the alt-right, many of who are racist.. either out of desire or ignorance… and the more you allow people to say racist things with out pointing it out, they more they feel validated… and right now

1) he was duped, but he lies about being duped and in his lie he suggests he was smarter than others who like him supported the war. (there is video of him supporting it. and now whey I say he lies.. it isn’t an insult, it seems to be a trait trump is proud of)

2) well besides he is lying about his wealth, his income and his charity donations… and the fact that he is being audited… besides all that… he might have a tax plan that benefits dj trump.

3) trump is lying about the wall, and his latest (superior tunnel technology which makes me laugh) the cost, how he is going to pay for it and the size.

4) Clinton was cleared of the ‘e-mail scandal’ the fact that most trump supporters don’t like that, while ignoring all the legal problems trump has and will continue to have.. is a bit silly.

There are people closing their eyes to facts… the rest of can see you Peter

And Peter brings Trumps lies right there in front of us. Trump lies once every 160 seconds according to two checks of several months of speeches and interviews. He lies 74% of the time.

He has said he would abandon due process under the law. Against the Constitution.

he has said he would use torture and kill family members of suspected terrorist families. A War crime.

He has said he would institute a stop and search nationwide and take away from a person any guns they had in their possession. Again against the second amendment. And if Clinton said that the NRA would be apoplectic as would the gun nuts. We have heard crickets.

His Birther lies. Legion.

His lies about seeing thousands of Muslims celebrating 9/11 in NJ. A total crock.

His using the Trump foundation’s tax free money donated by other people to pay off his business legal fees. Criminal.

His abuse of women including raping his first wife. Criminal.

His not paying contractors for work done. Disgusting.

His going bankrupt 4 times while running casino’s a licence to print money. Incredible.

His incompetence at hiring effective management for a campaign shows one thing. A Trump presidency would be a disaster.

“He has said he would abandon due process under the law. Against the Constitution.”
What was the context please?

“he has said he would use torture and kill family members of suspected terrorist families. A War crime.”
He said he would use practices that are currently in use, specifically waterboarding.

“He has said he would institute a stop and search nationwide and take away from a person any guns they had in their possession. Again against the second amendment. And if Clinton said that the NRA would be apoplectic as would the gun nuts. We have heard crickets.”
Regarding known criminals.

“His Birther lies. Legion.”
Originally asserted by Clinton during her run against Obama.

“His lies about seeing thousands of Muslims celebrating 9/11 in NJ. A total crock.”
I too saw the film footage of Muslims rejoicing across the river.

“His using the Trump foundation’s tax free money donated by other people to pay off his business legal fees. Criminal.”
He is probably borrowing funds from his various business entities that will be repaid. It’s legal. If you’re offended by the current tax law, then you need to vote for him. As the old Chinese adage goes, “The best guard was once a thief.”

“His abuse of women including raping his first wife. Criminal.”
Did his ex-wife report a rape to the authorities? You just committed liable.

“His not paying contractors for work done. Disgusting.”
Commercial terms range anywhere from “due upon receipt”, to Net 90 days, to Due Upon Completion. The guys I know who have done work for him claim is business practices are exemplary.

“His going bankrupt 4 times while running casino’s a licence to print money. Incredible.”
See took advantage of tax code to protect his assets.

“His incompetence at hiring effective management for a campaign shows one thing. A Trump presidency would be a disaster.”
Looks like his campaign is doing quite well on a shoestring budget. His methodology is extremely effective albeit unconventional. Very admirable.

I wonder though, why is it a question of ‘should’ and not ‘why haven’t you.’ “You” being the media.

I know with trump it is almost an out and out lie every time he talks…but most politicians stretch the truth and a lot of places will fact check after the fact… but why not not move on until the facts are clearly stated, showing trump is lying.. show the video

And why for politicians.. NPR interviewed a farmer in Georgia this morning and they kept stepping away and saying — that has been proved to not be true. They did that after the fact and I think part to not confront the interviewee with facts….or more to the point, his words were wrong… but why

We know assume that if you don’t correct a lie, most people will know it is wrong

But you should correct…

If a person says that yellow time is blue

you correct it for the people who are colorblind and don’t know better
and you correct it so you can point out it is a lie.

Of course trump lies, he thinks if he says he is right.. he wins.. and for many of those in the basket with him, that is fine.. they don’t care, they wanna believe.

It is the same with the dog whistle. trump is pandering to the alt-right, many of who are racist.. either out of desire or ignorance… and the more you allow people to say racist things with out pointing it out, they more they feel validated… and right now

Peter you are a Trump excuse machine. Are you one of those fake Christians who love Trump the serial adulterer thrice married rapist, and yes his wife swore under oath that he ripped out her hair in a rage and raped her.

Your strongest support for your point of view is Keith Olbermann’s commentary. You (collectively) are what’s referred to as the “uneducated voter”. You need to look beyond the propaganda and peel back at least one more layer. Un-freakin’- believable!

The media have assiduously reported on Trump’s lack of truthfulness, so what’s the problem? Could the problem be that many who oppose him can’t believe his supporters forgive his shortcomings? That should not be surprising to those who are so ready and willing to forgive Hillary for hers. Neither one of them is going to win a Good Conduct medal.

To Brian Mann and others trying to “normalize” the Donald. I am a 71 year old aware and educated woman living and still working in Saranac Lake, NY. I am telling you this up front so you don’t write me off simply as an exasperated citizen who only listens to ‘sound bites’. I have become tired of the lack of real journalism that exists in these so called “elections”. This was frighteningly apparent to me during the 2000 campaign when rigging proved to be so blatant. Follow up investigations proved this. This was a ‘final straw’ for me. I continue to vote, locally and nationally, AND I continue to read and research and wonder:? Who is ‘fact-checking’ $H Clinton? She continues to backpeddle and outright lie about her positions, commitments, actions, etc. I regret voting for her in NY state senator election. She talks a great game…convincingly…I might add. Then doesn’t follow through time and again, often by diverting attention to someone else who ‘got away with’ or simply didn’t do ‘their job’. Believing that the Donald is any better would be fantasy for me! What I have come to believe is that most mainstream media sources are so ‘smitten’ with $H and likely intimidated by the powers behind her allowing too many ‘journalists’ to give her a “pass” even as historical & current reports of her behavior still haunt her. $H is a small pawn in the theatre of these powerfully selfish and self-serving arrogant elite who have decided they know best with no concern of the consequences to the rest of our citizenry, both nationally and globally. I am looking to a necessary and I pray civil revolution as our democracy is slipping away. Edward Snowden and consequent research of acknowledged whistle blowers has truly opened my eyes to the corruption in our government. Look at the now 1300 (?) executive orders of our president (who I initially supported) and even the closed door sessions of Gov. Cuomo. I am truly concerned and in some ways fearful for what all future generations will be facing in what is becoming the United States of personal enrichment of the few. While i am truly grateful to be living in the Park and also often grateful to the reporting and work of the NCPR staff, I have noticed that national reporting is still biased towards $H Clinton, even while Bernie Sanders was attracting 1000 times the crowd and participation. Why, Why does the national media so easily dismiss ‘outsider’ candidates? I will still vote if only to show my resistance to the ‘status quo’ ; to our lack of real choice because threat and intimidation work better than integrity and because I stubbornly want to believe that my voice will be heard. Too, too many of us believe this general presidential election is already decided. And I really don’t care if you print this. Thanks for allowing me this platform. Sincerely, Corinne

Those two articles showing Trump was lying, even the NY post article shows trump was lying. Even if the one captain can be believed, it wasn’t thousands, nor were this on video…. and there is no indication why the muslims were celebrating

Every time one talks about trump, a plethora of links showing how he is wrong, showing he uses rhetoric of violence and hate, that he says things that will appeal to white supremacist (and it works).
—
Of course the deplorable would love the state ‘uneducated’ because they want to believe it is false, now would have been the perfect time to disprove that.. you know by showing that trump supporters are educated…. lest you forget trump loves the uneducated

Did the research, looks like about half have less than a year of college… one of the things people forget. Having a high school (or even college) diploma doesn’t mean you have continued to learn, search and try to understand the world

The media have not assiduously reported on trumps lack of truthfulness, had to look up ‘assiduously’ but I know there was no great care or perseverance in the reporting.. some maybe.. but where the uneducated go for ‘facts’? They go fox and breitbert which are not assiduous (nor are they diligent, careful, meticulous, thorough, sedulous, attentive, conscientious, punctilious, painstaking, rigorous, particular; persevering).

And those are the more generic alt-right news sources .. go to the daily caller and look at the heinous attempts to pretend to be news and the number of people who follow that site — yes deplorable.

There is no doubt Clinton has shortcomings and has been dishonest, and be clear I and many others point that out. In fact in one of my posts (perhaps the one that was reposted) says that reporters should have been calling out lies of not just the candidates, but of the people they interview and state lies as facts.

But to pretend Hillary Clinton is on par with trump and his dishonesty… is out and out wrong.

One consistent factor with trump supporters.. they ignore trump’s lies. Perhaps because what they are believing is a lie and thus trump validates their false narrative.

You seldom find a trump supporter denying that trump lies, their response is: “others lie” That is because media will add Clinton into the articles in the name of ‘fairness’ It’s not fair, it is obfuscation for those who willingly ignore facts. I guess the theory to them is trump lying 74% of the time is equal to Clinton’s 3%.

The one thing everyone has to accept from now on: 40% of the people being polled right now are totally aligned with with misogyny, with bigotry.. You don’t see any trump folks calling him out.. worse, look at Paul Ryan, Reince Priebus.. look at the GOP web site.. they are not calling out the bigotry.. they are ignoring it.. and posting their own, more generic, lies. They are throwing logs onto the trump inferno

It’s a race to the bottom, folks. Neither candidate is fit for office and that’s a fact. Either way, stay calm and enjoy the fireworks. The Obama Presidency didn’t herald the approach of the Apocalypse as many predicted and we even survived eight years of a President nobody admits to having voted for. We’ve survived bad Presidents, stupid Presidents, accidental Presidents, corrupt Presidents and even racist Presidents. We’ll survive the next one too, regardless of which one of these clowns staggers across the finish line first.

telfish, I don’t think he understands a camera in general. He still denies things he said that was recorded with a camera… of course he is old school, he doesn’t believe that when he called a radio station posing as a ‘trump pr man’ that they could record him.

Jill stein will be on democracy now! Ncpr refuses to air this program. Stein is the Green Party candidate as is refused a place in the debates totally controlled by the one party system. The top 4-6 parties should be allowed in the debates. The league of woman voters stopped hosting the debates because it was no longer a debate and going down the sewer hole of corporate control and censorship.
Ncpr needs to host democracy now! With Amy Goodman a real award winning journalist. PBS news did a real poor job. Trump at least mentioned Benie Sanders.
Watch Democracy Now! Tuesday at 8 am!

There you have it, folks. The polls are in, and the viewers have rendered their verdict: It was an absolute slaughter. CNN’s poll shows 62 percent of those who watches the first debate felt that Hillary Clinton won, while only 27 percent said that Trump was the victor. A separate poll from PPP, meanwhile, also gave a win to Clinton, by a 51-40 margin.

For once, the pundits, the pollsters, and the people all agree. Now let’s just see how Trump reacts tomorrow.

[My favorite interviews are with Conway, who knows that trump is lying and finds ways to continually change the subject… in two months she will be on fox news.. and good news, she won’t have Roger Ailes hitting on her]

Peter might have made the most salient point.. thinking trump can learn from reading a book is just plain silly, the guy who (ghost) wrote “The Art of the Deal” doesn’t think trump even read his own book.

When someone turns up totally unprepared for an interview for the most important job in the world and does not have a clue what he is talking about it shows he is basically a lazy person. Trump has no desire to learn a thing about being President or the world around him. He failed abjectly and completely.

Nothing new last night, they both ran true to form. Neither scored a knock-out blow and neither one displayed some new or compelling ability. Hillary is still a smart ass know it all with the personality of a snake and Trump is still a loud mouthed bully who has trouble speaking in full sentences. Hillary won, but then, she was supposed to. Most importantly, anyone who is still undecided has no new information on which to base their choice.

When you consider the saying, don’t get in the mud to fight a pig…… Hillary did pretty well

Of course, when you consider that what she did was answer the questions that were asked, with a plan and policy… She did amazingly well. And if y ou compare her to trump, she was brilliant, not bright, but a spectacle of illumination

And sure, if you consider the fact trump didn’t answer many of the questions that were asked, but did talk about after each question… He did amazingly… well whatever you want to call it, but he did nothing that was: presidential or on point, and very little that was honest. Go to any fact check site and they continue to point out the trump lies, that he continues to repeat the same lies, even after continually being shown his errors.

If that is a draw, then pretty much nothing trump says will open your eyes to dishonesty.

And if you want to be condescending and say: “Hillary won, but then, she was supposed to.” Then you obviously can only accept failure from her, because you certainly will not give the woman credit for knowing what needs to be done as a president.

People seem to miss that a lot. No matter what you want to say, being a president, prime minister, dictator, or lead of a country… is being a politician. AND like it or not, people who do the best job at anything are those that are qualified. It’s a joke and a fact, you don’t hire a surgeon because s/he isn’t qualified… because you want an outsider.

There are a lot of things bad about Clinton. Number one in my mind is not always telling the truth, and I don’t buy into ‘all politicians lie…’ if they do, it isn’t because the job requires it. That said: no matter how much you dislike Clinton (for whatever personal reasons (but I see a lot of misogyny)), she is qualified.. maybe not best qualified, but the best qualified don’t always make it to the top (I.E. Bernie Sanders).

That in no way means… because she isn’t the best, we think trump (the least qualified) is the only choice.

What the republicans have done is equated someone (Clinton) who has jaywalked and took two of the ‘one free apples’ with the guy (trump) perjured himself after shooting the neighbor’s cow (and probably much worse, as the various investigations play out against him). Anyone who sees those two crimes as equal, have chosen to wear the republican glasses that are tinted with lies and deceit.

Or another way — Hillary has been investigated by congress (way too many times) and cleared (not without some bad choices, but cleared); trump’s current investigations and past have cleared him of nothing and often shown his disgusting rental practices and actions towards women.

Trump admits he has paid no taxes, says it’s a smart thing to do. Then in the next breath complains that there is no money to spend on infrastructure. What a complete fraud and fool. How could anyone vote for this con man?

Obviously, +90% of the people who post at NCPR are going to vote for Clinton and obviously they are a vocal minority of the people who vote in the North Country.
Also obvious by the words they use that they are filled with hate for anyone who disagrees with them.