It sounds like you just need to put it in your profile that you're not interested in sex. I suspect that would cure the problem, completely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LinusK

Maybe the part about feeling used is what threw me off. Anyway, if she puts her feelings about it, whatever they are, in her profile, she can avoid these indecent men, who are interested in sex, without being married first.

I don't think she said she didn't like sex or had any moral qualms about FWB. But she did say that both these guys claimed to want an LTR, but she didn't fit the criteria so they floated the idea that she keep them entertained until they found someone better. See? Bolding mine. That's kind of demeaning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayrey

This time, I've met two men, both who say they really, really want long-term relationships but who have suggested that we be, essentially, friends with benefits. That is, they like me a lot and want to see me but want to keep their options open, in both cases, in hopes of meeting someone who lives closer to them (I'm about a 45-minute drive away and am willing to share in the traveling). As I see it, they basically want to have sex with me while they're still shopping.

Not a thing in the world wrong with those who prefer to stay single or state outright that they are just looking for a sex thing, but there's also nothing wrong with someone who prefers to have sex with someone who may be interested in a long term commitment. "Hey, I don't see you as someone I could be with long term, but I'll bang you while I continue to look for the love of my life. That cool with you?"

It's obvious what the OP's problem is: she is completely passive in her online dating: she waits for men to message her. Instead she should be searching profiles and sending messages to the men of interest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanvasShoes

I'd be interested in seeing how many men our age prefer this (I don't know, I'm just wondering). The OP is in her mid 50s, presumably the men she's dating are somewhere around that age too. They, like many of us of "a certain age" do have more traditional ways of dating, so I don't think she's really doing anything all that wrong.

Here's my crackpot theory: By the time you reach middle adulthood, most of the "good guys" are indeed "taken." That is, a lot of the men who are both interested in being in a stable, committed relationship, and who are well-suited to one, have already found that relationship that they're looking for, especially if they've been actively and aggressively pursuing women. Of the ones who haven't found such a relationship, but who don't otherwise have anything really wrong with them, it's likely to be because they aren't as aggressive at, or as skillful at, or as interested in, the pursuit. This would include recent divorces, widowers, etc. who have a lot more (or at least a lot more recent) experience at being married than at meeting and dating. So a woman who's looking for a good man may have to take more initiative than she'd like.

It's obvious what the OP's problem is: she is completely passive in her online dating: she waits for men to message her. Instead she should be searching profiles and sending messages to the men of interest.

Where on earth did you get this hare-brained idea? I've messaged a lot of men that "appear" -- an important word! -- to want what I want. Your assertion is impertient and baseless.

What I'm finding is that, while I am very honest about my life situation in my profile, many, many men are not. They don't tell you that they are separated but still married, or only a few weeks out of a long-term relationship, or unemployed, or really just looking for to score as much as possible.

Men at that age are discovering they are the dating equivalent of a hot girl in their 20s and are starting to act like it.

Hell yes! Life is good. A fit middle aged man with a reasonable amount of wealth is a kid in a candy store.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fubaya

Unfortunately, this screws things up for us good guys. I haven't done the online dating thing much but from what I have done, it seems to be nearly impossible to actually talk to someone without them assuming you're a creep. After a few times, I just give up for a while.

Sorry to say but it's just you. Not to say that you're a creep, but for some reason you might be coming off like one.

Maybe you're not clear up front about what you're looking for. There are plenty of decent, trustworthy, emotionally healthy single men out there. Some are interested in casual sex, and some aren't. But frankly (and I say this as a middle-aged man), I'd be more surprised that people of my age are interested in finding someone to settle down with long-term than learning that they're interested in a FWB relationship.

By this point in our lives, many of us have been married, raised kids, and been with someone we intended to spend the rest of our lives with. To have done that and now find ourselves single, I think it's perfectly understandable to want to play the field a bit. And let's face it- nobody's trying to project an image of virginal purity anymore. We're responsible adults, and a little harmless casual sex while we decide if you're the perfect woman is perfectly normal.

But to say that there aren't any healthy, stable men out there just because the ones you're meeting are OK with casual sex is a fallacy.

I obviously was not clear here on my definition of FWB and why it bothered me.

I have made it clear to the men I go out with more than once or twice that I am interested in a long-term, committed relationship. I do not need marriage, or even to live together if that isn't right for both of us, but I do want someone who is interested enough in me, that is, in ALL of me, to want to see me exclusively. Of course we will be having sex. The point is, they need to be interested enough, mature enough, to be exclusive.

The two men I'm complaining about both claimed they wanted a committed relationship, but it quickly became clear that they were enjoying playing the field. I don't care if a man wants to play the field, but he's not going to be having sex with me WHILE HE IS CONTINUING TO DATE OTHER WOMEN. I have no interest in being part of someone's harem.

A note on "trustworthy." What I meant by that was a man whom I could believe what he said about himself and about what he wanted. There seem to be quite a few men who say they want x when they know perfectly well they want y. I'm tired of being lied to.

I don't think she said she didn't like sex or had any moral qualms about FWB. But she did say that both these guys claimed to want an LTR, but she didn't fit the criteria so they floated the idea that she keep them entertained until they found someone better. See? Bolding mine. That's kind of demeaning.

Not a thing in the world wrong with those who prefer to stay single or state outright that they are just looking for a sex thing, but there's also nothing wrong with someone who prefers to have sex with someone who may be interested in a long term commitment. "Hey, I don't see you as someone I could be with long term, but I'll bang you while I continue to look for the love of my life. That cool with you?"

Clee, I'm just going to let you write my posts for me in the future. You are spot on! Thanks for understanding.

I obviously was not clear here on my definition of FWB and why it bothered me.

I have made it clear to the men I go out with more than once or twice that I am interested in a long-term, committed relationship. I do not need marriage, or even to live together if that isn't right for both of us, but I do want someone who is interested enough in me, that is, in ALL of me, to want to see me exclusively. Of course we will be having sex. The point is, they need to be interested enough, mature enough, to be exclusive.

The two men I'm complaining about both claimed they wanted a committed relationship, but it quickly became clear that they were enjoying playing the field. I don't care if a man wants to play the field, but he's not going to be having sex with me WHILE HE IS CONTINUING TO DATE OTHER WOMEN. I have no interest in being part of someone's harem.

This is totally reasonable. Sex only happens if there is exclusivity first.

Quote:

A note on "trustworthy." What I meant by that was a man whom I could believe what he said about himself and about what he wanted. There seem to be quite a few men who say they want x when they know perfectly well they want y. I'm tired of being lied to.

Women do the same thing, but probably not at the same rate as men. I have had the "Oh, by the way, I am married but he's totally cool with this" experience and I was not pleased.

"Hey, I don't see you as someone I could be with long term, but I'll bang you while I continue to look for the love of my life. That cool with you?"

I'm all for people doing whatever floats their boat, but the problem with the scenario you describe is it so often results in a power differential. I know a woman who had a FWB relationship with a guy for years. She was 100% completely up front about it the entire time, sometimes brutally honest (''the second I meet someone new, it's over''), but he was madly in love with her and followed her around like a lovesick puppy dog. She continued to take advantage of him knowing his feelings for her and he was quite miserable when she finally came to her senses and broke it off for good. Within a year of that, she met the love of her life and got married. So I actually think the situation was detrimental to both of them, in that it broke his heart and prevented her from actually finding someone she did want to commit to. A complete waste of time for both of them.

I'm all for people doing whatever floats their boat, but the problem with the scenario you describe is it so often results in a power differential. I know a woman who had a FWB relationship with a guy for years. She was 100% completely up front about it the entire time, sometimes brutally honest (''the second I meet someone new, it's over''), but he was madly in love with her and followed her around like a lovesick puppy dog. She continued to take advantage of him knowing his feelings for her and he was quite miserable when she finally came to her senses and broke it off for good. Within a year of that, she met the love of her life and got married. So I actually think the situation was detrimental to both of them, in that it broke his heart and prevented her from actually finding someone she did want to commit to. A complete waste of time for both of them.

I wrote out the propositions the OP was offered shorthand in order to demonstrate why the OP might feel used by the proposals. I would never willingly warm someone's bed until someone better comes along and I'd be mildly offended, too, especially if I'd made it clear I was looking for a long term thing.

I wasn't really trying to single you out, CLee. I was just pointing out that even in the case of 100% honesty, things can still go sketchy. My friend was not intentionally trying to hurt this man, nor do I think she recognized that she was taking advantage of him. But to anyone observing it was pretty obvious, and sad. And even though I think he was a loser for a number of reasons, I was still kinda mad at her for letting it happen that way.

As for the OP, the thing that struck me the most was the utter bullshit of ''until I find someone who lives closer.'' 45 minutes is nothing if you're with someone you are really into. It's inconvenient, but a deal breaker?

I'm surprised anybody over the age of 25 would even put forward the idea of friends with benefits.

My wife has been best friends with "Jan" since kindergarten. That's over 45 years. Consequently Mrs. has known "Jan's" mom "Helen" for that entire time. Helen's husband died over 30 years ago, while the girls were in high school. He died in the saddle, as it so happens. Turns out Helen has always had needs.

Some few years later, Helen met "Walter", at say, age 55. They began to meet twice a week for coffee and some afternoon delight. Twice a week! For 30 years! Helen always referred to it as her "Walter time."

Nobody ever met Walter. It wasn't even really FWB. Just Sanka, a quick poke in the whiskers, and off he goes!

Walter died last year, and I'm terribly afraid this octogenarian serial sex fiend may strike again. The visuals are too frightening to consider!

I hope I'm going strong at 85, but I wouldn't involve anyone but my wife. She's used to me, but I wouldn't inflict a 70 or 80 year old me on a stranger!

@ Ambivalid, Yes of course its thoughtful and courteous, but could be construed as being "overly available" in a dating situation. In the same way as "the man picks up the woman", not the other way 'round, traditionally. And Im assuming most of these guys are from the "Traditional" Era. Its more like a Booty Call the other way.

Seriously? The "Don't Iron While the Strike is Hot" march was in 1970; I'm 54 and I was in 5th grade. Basic feminist ideas of equality and fairness have been prominent through all my life except early childhood. The OP is in her 50s not her 90s.

Anyone of any sex who thinks potential dates who expect gender equality are uncourteous or sleazy or overly available or otherwise not doing it right is a bad idea themselves.

I'd be interested in seeing how many men our age prefer this (I don't know, I'm just wondering). The OP is in her mid 50s, presumably the men she's dating are somewhere around that age too. They, like many of us of "a certain age" do have more traditional ways of dating, so I don't think she's really doing anything all that wrong.

50s doper men, what do you think?

52 year old male. If a woman is interested in me, she should contact me, just as if I am interested in a woman, I will contact her. I'm not into gender games.

A few months ago, the problem was a couple of super-needy, newly-single men who wanted to latch on to me like leeches. Sent them down the road. This time, I've met two men, both who say they really, really want long-term relationships but who have suggested that we be, essentially, friends with benefits. That is, they like me a lot and want to see me but want to keep their options open, in both cases, in hopes of meeting someone who lives closer to them (I'm about a 45-minute drive away and am willing to share in the traveling). As I see it, they basically want to have sex with me while they're still shopping.

I'm older than you and I commute 45 minutes to work every day, and there is no sex when I get there. When I was in college I drove 600 miles to see my girlfriend now wife. Geez, you youngsters have no stamina these days.

My understanding of FWB is that it is sex with no romance and no even hope of romance. I bet these guys think they missed out on something, but I totally get your lack of interest.

My understanding of FWB is that it is sex with no romance and no even hope of romance.

Depends on who wants what. Sometimes a friendship develops, sometimes it become longterm commitment.
Dating online is just like dating in real life. There are people who hook up in bars and don't even get each other's names.
With an email situation, you at least have some idea of the person's general intelligence and sanity before you ever meet.

This really isn't surprising. A lot of the single people in their 50s have already had one or more long-term relationships and decided they don't want another one. Nothing wrong with that. Just spell out your expectations as well as you can, and try not to get pissed off when people don't pay attention to them. Online dating is a cesspool no matter whether you're 20 or 60.

I can get on board with the OP's desire to not be in a FWB relationship.

Where I can't agree with the OP is with the automatic pathologizing of people who would consider a FWB relationship.

She didn't. She said both guys stated they wanted a long term relationship initially, but later reneged and tried to negotiate a FWB instead. She's insulted because they as much as told her that all they wanted from her was sex until they found someone more suitable. She is interested in something lasting rather than serving as someone's plaything until something better comes along. I'm sure if she had advertised for a FWB she wouldn't be insulted by such a proposal.

I wasn't really trying to single you out, CLee. I was just pointing out that even in the case of 100% honesty, things can still go sketchy. My friend was not intentionally trying to hurt this man, nor do I think she recognized that she was taking advantage of him. But to anyone observing it was pretty obvious, and sad. And even though I think he was a loser for a number of reasons, I was still kinda mad at her for letting it happen that way.

I don't think that is particular to FWB relationships, though. Any type of human relationship brings this type of risk.

Depends on who wants what. Sometimes a friendship develops, sometimes it become longterm commitment.
Dating online is just like dating in real life. There are people who hook up in bars and don't even get each other's names.
With an email situation, you at least have some idea of the person's general intelligence and sanity before you ever meet.

I have no problem at all with on-line dating. You can learn a lot about a person and get very close to them at a distance. I never lived closer than 600 miles from my now-wife before we got married, so I'm kind of an expert on this - and that was long before the Internet. We used the phone and real letters.

My problem with FWB is that you hit one stage of a relationship without going through the intermediate steps - or even wanting to. If both people want to do this, fine, if they really do, but I totally get one person not wanting it at all.

Where on earth did you get this hare-brained idea? I've messaged a lot of men that "appear" -- an important word! -- to want what I want. Your assertion is impertient and baseless.

What I'm finding is that, while I am very honest about my life situation in my profile, many, many men are not. They don't tell you that they are separated but still married, or only a few weeks out of a long-term relationship, or unemployed, or really just looking for to score as much as possible.

It's imagine it's only men who're dishonest in profiles. I doubt there's any woman who - for example - put the year old pictures in their profiles. Or subtract 30 pounds from their actual weight. I imagine such things are unheard of.

She didn't. She said both guys stated they wanted a long term relationship initially, but later reneged and tried to negotiate a FWB instead. She's insulted because they as much as told her that all they wanted from her was sex until they found someone more suitable. She is interested in something lasting rather than serving as someone's plaything until something better comes along. I'm sure if she had advertised for a FWB she wouldn't be insulted by such a proposal.

You know, a common complaint about selling on Craigslist is that if you post something for sale at $1000, there are people who will show up and offer less than $500 for it, even if they agree to the 1K during initial contact.

This is pretty much the same thing, only much more personal. These guys are telling the OP that she's good enough to fuck every now and then, but not good enough to be a girlfriend. If everyone involved is looking for a FWB situation, that's one thing. But trying to change the deal after the negotiations is another.

I don't think that is particular to FWB relationships, though. Any type of human relationship brings this type of risk.

Right, but the exploitative FWB situation creates this unique self-righteous smigness in the exploiter: They are using someone and causing them pain, and they think honesty somehow removes all responsibility to be kind. They maintain willful ignorance to allow for indulgence.

It's like someone who abandons a dog on the side of the road, and thinks that makes them a better person than the person that just shot the dog they didn't want anymore. They are prolonging suffering so that they can lie to themselves about causing it.

You know, a common complaint about selling on Craigslist is that if you post something for sale at $1000, there are people who will show up and offer less than $500 for it, even if they agree to the 1K during initial contact.

This is pretty much the same thing, only much more personal. These guys are telling the OP that she's good enough to fuck every now and then, but not good enough to be a girlfriend. If everyone involved is looking for a FWB situation, that's one thing. But trying to change the deal after the negotiations is another.

What if the ad is for a like new late model sports car but when you show up it turns out to be ten years older than advertised and heavily used?

Depends on who wants what. Sometimes a friendship develops, sometimes it become longterm commitment.
Dating online is just like dating in real life. There are people who hook up in bars and don't even get each other's names.
With an email situation, you at least have some idea of the person's general intelligence and sanity before you ever meet.

If they are friends with benefits, that automatically says there is a friendship. If it's just sex, that's a fuck buddy.

I don't think that's what the OP was doing. For further evidence, see Post #58.

I think she is. Post #57 includes:

Quote:

The point is, they need to be interested enough, mature enough, to be exclusive.

Mature != exclusive. There's nothing inherently immature about liking FWB relationships. I've had them in the past and likely will have them in the future, and as long as everyone is honest and actually treats each other as friends, they can work. I tend to prefer guys in open relationships, since they have their "one and only" and it's pretty clear that we're just each other's piece on the side.

That being said, I agree that if that isn't what she wants, that's cool. And the guys misrepresenting what they want isn't cool. A friend of mine braved the online waters specifically stating she wanted a Fuck Buddy, not even FWB, and she got a lot of guys who treated her like crap when they first met for coffee. Apparently a woman wanting NSA sex must obviously have something seriously wrong with her and guys can therefore treat her like she's less of a person than a woman looking for love.

Still, I don't want to jump down the OP's throat too far. She wants what she wants, and guys saying they want one thing while actually wanting another sucks. I wish you luck, and I hope you can find a fulfilling relationship sooner rather than later!

The OP can choose what kind of relationship she would like, and the men should not move the goalposts. I also agree that they way their offers were allegedly phrased along the lines of "you'll do until I find someone better" would probably make me say "no thanks" too.

But I do think that both in the OP and in several other posts a feeling that FWB or casual sex are somehow wrong, immature or "using people" crept into the argument. The posters who picked up on this and objected are not in the wrong either.

The OP can choose what kind of relationship she would like, and the men should not move the goalposts. I also agree that they way their offers were allegedly phrased along the lines of "you'll do until I find someone better" would probably make me say "no thanks" too.

But I do think that both in the OP and in several other posts a feeling that FWB or casual sex are somehow wrong, immature or "using people" crept into the argument. The posters who picked up on this and objected are not in the wrong either.

Pookah, you are correct. In my initial post, I did judge the men that wanted FWB or casual sex as wrong and immature. I apologize if I offended anyone. I am calmer now and acknowledge that exclusive sexually relationships are not for everyone. If all parties are happy with casual sex, more power to them. My frustration came from having been very clear about what I wanted (not casual sex) and feeling disrespected when that was so blatantly disregarded.

Pookah, you are correct. In my initial post, I did judge the men that wanted FWB or casual sex as wrong and immature. I apologize if I offended anyone. I am calmer now and acknowledge that exclusive sexually relationships are not for everyone. If all parties are happy with casual sex, more power to them. My frustration came from having been very clear about what I wanted (not casual sex) and feeling disrespected when that was so blatantly disregarded.

And I think they way you describe it, you were totally right to be offended in that situation!

She: I'm interested in a relationship.
He. Sorry, no. How about just sex until we find what we're looking for.
She. Sorry, no.

They part ways.

I don't think they guy's proposal was the most offensive thing I've seen today. Sure, she should reject the proposal as something she is completely uninterested in. Making a counter offer, and one that you are free to easily reject without pain or consequence, doesn't seem like your feelings were "blatantly disregarded." I don't see the trauma in having to say "no" to "Do you want to be FWB?"

I agree- it's a basic offer/counteroffer. I think people are taking this waaaay too personally. Just because a person doesn't want to be in a committed relationship with you doesn't mean they don't respect you or they don't think that you are "good enough." There are billions of people I am not interested in having an exclusive relationship with, most of whom are perfectly decent people, just not my thing.

This is pretty much the same thing, only much more personal. These guys are telling the OP that she's good enough to fuck every now and then, but not good enough to be a girlfriend. If everyone involved is looking for a FWB situation, that's one thing. But trying to change the deal after the negotiations is another.

women do it all the time too...

something else..at least in my experience. FWB ends up being pretty exclusive. Its more than a friend, and I have had several such relationships over the years. Usually the first thing that is asked is to be informed if there is anyone else "in play" and to be advised of any changes in that status. It can suck, especially if you really like someone..but you dont assume the FWB is in it long haul....it may develop into that...but its often a nice thing even if it does not last forever.

The other thing is the guys aren't necessarily being misleading. Maybe they ARE looking for a relationship - just not with the OP. it doesn't mean they (necessarily) pulled a bait and switch. They might just not be that into her. Or maybe they are into her, but not for 45 minutes (unless just for sex).

And there aren't a whole lot of women who will upfront admit they are ok with a FWB. Most FWB end up that way by accident. It isn't unreasonable for a guy to ask that - even if at first she said she wasn't looking for something casual - as virtually every woman says that.

I bet if you asked 100 women (who ended up being FWB that resulted from meeting someone on an online date) on their first date (secretly - say in a poll when they went to the bathroom - but before it was obvious their was some incompatibility): "are you willing to be a FWB with this guy?" - that at LEAST 80 would say no.

I'm not saying disregard what she says, just that things change. If two people hit it off, but are not compatible for whatever reason - the guy (or gal) might say - I don't think this will work, but how about we enjoy each other company for the time being.

And there can still be romance. Or more - at least in my experience - along the lines of passion. You can totally be into someone - but not want to spend the rest of your life with them. In some ways - this allows you to be more passionate. You can enjoy them for who they are - and not care about their flaws (in many cases at least). Some of my most passionate and meaningful moments were with women where we both realized we would never be in an exclusive relationship.

I agree- it's a basic offer/counteroffer. I think people are taking this waaaay too personally. Just because a person doesn't want to be in a committed relationship with you doesn't mean they don't respect you or they don't think that you are "good enough." There are billions of people I am not interested in having an exclusive relationship with, most of whom are perfectly decent people, just not my thing.

I think it depends on the situation and how the offers were being presented. As I've made very clear in previous posts, I've absolutely nothing against casual hook-ups, but there's a time and place. I think it's a bit disingenuous to say it's only ever an honest offer - some people are into the more "old fashioned" get to know someone to settle down with school of thought. I think most people are well able to figure out if that's what's going on and they should respect those terms.

I have heard that you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find your prince.

Well that's where you are wrong. The princess didn't kiss the prince until he had already transformed from a frog.

Quote:

Although in modern versions the transformation is invariably triggered by the princess kissing the frog, in the original Grimm version of the story the frog's spell was broken when the princess threw it against a wall in disgust.

I am becoming more and more convinced that there are no decent, trustworthy, emotionally healthy single men left in the world.

Let me rephrase.

"I am a 56 year old woman and I just rejected up to 6 perfectly decent men for no good reason in the world, like at all they were perfectly decent and I rejected them just because I could. I Then dated two scum bags who were kind of cute and them dumped them for being scum bags why are there no good men left ?"

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