Whose fault is high immigrant unemployment in Finland?

Even though Finland has been generous about investing on language- and culture-training course for immigrants, one should rightfully ask if the money is being spent effectively. Why is there still high unemployment among immigrants in Finland if we are spending hefty sums of tax-payers money on these types of courses?

While high unemployment (well over 20%) among the immigrant community in Finland is due on a myriad of factors, would the money be better spent if the government launched a campaign to lower those walls of suspicion that exist between the Finns and immigrants?

Shouldn’t the government be investing its precious time and money on how to make Finland a truly equal opportunity country that views immigrants and diversity as a positive matter?

In my opinion, the problem of high immigrant unemployment is attributable to the chicken-and-egg syndrome. On the one hand you are required to learn sufficient language and culture skills that will never be obtained in a classroom environment. The only way to learn such skills is through employment.

Even though Finnish legislation offers protection and encourages cultural diversity, we are in danger of falling into the trap of status-quo inactivity. The issue and the social problems that arise from high unemployment will not be solved by sweeping them under the rug with the help of social welfare programs.

Moreover, too many in Finland, I fear, would not care less. They argue that since unemployment is about 7% nationally, immigrants should passively accept double-digit jobless rates.

High immigrant unemployment is not the failure of any particular group but falls on our society as a whole. We will continue to fail dismally in the task of integrating newcomers as long as we do not find ways to bring immigrant unemployment near national levels.

This, I believe, is where the government’s money and time should be invested.

Related

I would suggest something a bit more utopian (or pretentious, as you may want to call it).

Why do people migrate to Finland?

The reasons why people leave their homelands vary greatly, but the vast majority of them do so because they seek a better life in Suomi. They usually come from failed Estates and are unsurprisingly uneducated (in comparison with the Finnish pattern).

So, instead of geographically transferring a problem, why don’t we start to think of a cooperation system between governments?

Finland, with its educational excellence, could be in charge of the education of immigrants. They would be allowed to work during their studies, they would learn English and Finnish, and, most importantly, learn a profession (so that Tiwaz would at least stop referring to them as ‘goath herders’).

But they would have to go back to their homelands after that. And I don’t think a person who’s studied in Finland would remain unemployed for too long, even in an undeveloped country.

In the LONG RUN both countries would benefit:

-Finland would perhaps learn that immigrants don’t necessarily need to be the scourge of a society.
-The countries where the immigrants had come from would certainly develop more easily with an educated labour force.

Hi Mateus, I think you make a valid point and such cooperation would be a good idea. However, wouldn’t that be a sort of brain drain on the system? Even so, countries such as Finland should, however, help less advantaged nations by educating professionals.

Those countries where those poor, uneducated people come from are pisspoor little hellholes where there is no money to run education as rule of thumb. That is why they are so miserable little hellholes.

Should I, Finnish taxpayer, then pay for educating their people for them? What is MY gain? You are trying to get more money out of my already heavily taxed wallet to pay for education for other countries.

FUCK NO!

For record, I have nothing against the idea as such, but I do not want ANY financial expenditure of ideas like to be landed in the already burdened shoulders of Finnish taxpayers. We are not international red cross.

-“The only way to learn such skills is through employment.”

FALSE!

There are over 5 million Finnish speakers out there every day. You do not need employment to learn Finnish, you just need motivation to go out and learn it.

Of course, that means that immigrant has to leave his own little clique of fellow immigrants and go mingle with Finns. Of course, Finns expect you to do this politely, and by politely we mean politely in FINNISH context. But we are as people rather forgiving if you blunder. As long as you learn from your blunders and improve.

Again, employers hire people to fulfill certain function. That function has certain requirements to be done properly. It is duty of EMPLOYEE to have necessary skills unless there is made agreement that employer provides the training.

Thus, failure of immigrant unemployment is firmly in immigrant corner. You cannot expect lower standards to apply to immigrant applicant than are expected from Finnish applicant. That is against principle of equality and non-discrimination.

Enrique, remember that equality and discrimination must always cut both ways. You cannot discriminate against Finns to give foreigners easier time.

Tiwaz, you should not forget what Finland was like after the war. My mother told me that she saw an orange for the first time in her life when she moved to Stockholm in the early 1950s. But certainly Finland picked itself up thanks to its people and to EXPORT MARKETS like the former Soviet Union that made it possible. If we do not help each other, we are doomed to wither away.

Finland was kind of that 50y ago BUT we had something 3rd world countries dont and that was and is common goal and trust. Trust is first to die with multiculturalism.
Many if not most 3rd world countries are multicultural.

And your example of export… Yes we export/import for good for us and others get their share too but they and we dont do that because “it feels good”.

Also your “well over 20%” is lie, it was true in 2005 and they predicted it would be 20% in 2007. Last percentage i saw was 18%, couldnt find that study again tho. Prove yourself.

Then you are suggesting that all those countries that have diverse populations culturally are failed states. Then, tell us how the United States became the most powerful economic and military power on Earth? And why a country like Germany destroyed itself militarily and became ideologically bankrupt after the end of the end of World War 2?

Honestly, sometimes I feel sorry for you guys…
You must be incredibly miserable people.

You don’t know poverty. You don’t know starvation. You’ve never gone to bed with nothing in your stomach, and you have always woken up with the warm feeling that a big bowl of cereals, skimmed milk and fresh bread awaited you in the kitchen.

You’ve never seen your children cry asking for food and the only thing you had were a few slices of stale bread…

Oh, and you’ve never had to resist the temptation to steal a carton of milk from a bakery, and certainly you’ve never been caught red-handed doing so and then sent to prison because of 1 litre of milk…

You’ve never lost someone you love because of poverty…

Definitely none of these has ever happened to you guys… Actually I’m starting to think that you don’t see much beyond your computer screens.

If ever you get the opportunity to visit a very poor place, ‘a little hellhole’, please do yourselves this favour and go see those people… I’m quite sure after this experience you will stop complaining about foreigners who misuse verbal tenses in Finnish and behave differently because they are so intimidated by the highly-educated blue-eyed Finns…

Well, in case you’re too lazy to leave your nice and cosy sauna and to try to have these kind of experiences, at least keep in mind that nobody likes poverty. Nobody chooses to be ignorant. It could have happened to you. You were just lucky enough to be born in Finland in the 21st century.

–Well, in case you’re too lazy to leave your nice and cosy sauna and to try to have these kind of experiences, at least keep in mind that nobody likes poverty. Nobody chooses to be ignorant. It could have happened to you. You were just lucky enough to be born in Finland in the 21st century.

Very eloquently put, Mateus. I agree totally. Not only do some of these people do not understand what poverty is, they conveniently forget that Finland was a poor country and devastated by war in 1944. This type of thinking is a greatest danger to Finnish society than anything else.

-“Tiwaz, you should not forget what Finland was like after the war. My mother told me that she saw an orange for the first time in her life when she moved to Stockholm in the early 1950s. But certainly Finland picked itself up thanks to its people and to EXPORT MARKETS like the former Soviet Union that made it possible. If we do not help each other, we are doomed to wither away.”

So what?

We figured out what we had that was worth to someone else and exported it for good price.

Our parents and grandparents built this country WITH THEIR OWN WORK NOT CHARITY.

What is stopping those 3rd world hellholes from picking up themselves and starting to build their society?

Oh yes, their cultures and cultural conflicts. Things some people want us to import to this functioning society.

-“So, basically, you’re suggesting that we should not care about these ‘little hellholes’ and let these people starve to death, aren’t you?”

Basically I am saying that expecting Finland to care for all other nations at it’s own expense is idiotic.

I would recommend Enrique would first suggest USA and Argentina to do what is suggested here, and you make Brazil and Ireland to do it.

Then come here and tell us that we Finns should start to educate people of other nations pro bono.

As it is, we already waste our hard earned cash to have RUSSIA, country with immense natural resources and lots of cash, to clean up their waste waters in St Petersburg etc.

I really want to keep some money for myself too.

-“Then you are suggesting that all those countries that have diverse populations culturally are failed states. Then, tell us how the United States became the most powerful economic and military power on Earth? And why a country like Germany destroyed itself militarily and became ideologically bankrupt after the end of the end of World War 2?”

Hmm… USA IS failed state. It is going straight to hell with useless economical system, political system which is essentially trying to prevent itself from working (those two tied together) and lots of internal tensions and conflicts which just wait to flame up.

Are you aware that when USA did become big, wealthy and powerful it was NOT multicultural. Everyone in USA was expected to adjust to WASP-culture.

Those who did not, were pushed to sidelines and gave birth to places like Chinatown. Where poverty was very commonplace condition.

Germany on the other hand. Ideologically bankrupt? You base this on what? Germany lost a war. Bad things happen if you lose a war. Do you think USA would be shining little pearl if they went to war with nation X and lost? Hmm?

Multiculturalism would not save them from being militarily annihilated and having their whole society laid to waste.

-“You don’t know poverty. You don’t know starvation. You’ve never gone to bed with nothing in your stomach, and you have always woken up with the warm feeling that a big bowl of cereals, skimmed milk and fresh bread awaited you in the kitchen.”

So what? Should I now get all teary eyed and donate all my wealth to poor children in 3rd world so _I_ could for a change be poor and miserable?

Of course you would love it. You yourself are not suffering from poverty either. Or hunger. So why YOU are not out there donating everything you have to poor people in 3rd world?

I donate money to UNESCO every month. And that’s it. I do NOT want to pay even more money from my taxes, and effectively out of use of me and my family, to give some 3rd world people education at my expense on top of it.

THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH. IF THIRD WORLD WANTS FINLAND TO EDUCATE THEIR PEOPLE, THIRD WORLD BETTER FIGURE OUT HOW TO REPAY US.

-“If ever you get the opportunity to visit a very poor place, ‘a little hellhole’, please do yourselves this favour and go see those people… I’m quite sure after this experience you will stop complaining about foreigners who misuse verbal tenses in Finnish and behave differently because they are so intimidated by the highly-educated blue-eyed Finns…”

How about you funny acting foreigners figuring out that you acting funny is grounds for us not to hire you since you disrupt our work community.

You foreigners whine much more than we Finns. We Finns just respond when you whiners come here to our little country and demand that your arse are gilt and thus you deserve preferential treatment.

Too bad for poor people, but my primary interest is to provide MY FAMILY nice, safe and comfortable life.

-“Very eloquently put, Mateus. I agree totally. Not only do some of these people do not understand what poverty is, they conveniently forget that Finland was a poor country and devastated by war in 1944. This type of thinking is a greatest danger to Finnish society than anything else.”

Very pathetically put. Apparently you and Mateus forget something… FINLAND BUILT ITSELF.

There was no charity and whining but hard work and determination.

We have not forgotten how poor and devastated Finland was. Neither have we forgotten, which you two ignore, that Finland got up from that dump through it’s own strength.

Finland built itself with hard work and determination. And this is the reason why I admire Suomi so much. If I am not mistaken, the very national anthem reads something like “Finland is poor and has no gold”. Is that correct?

Exactly the same thing happens in Brazil. My great grandparents came from Italy and the only thing they had were a few corn seeds and a piece of land. The Brazilian government didn’t care about them, let alone the Italian government. Nowadays, the German and Italian communities are the wealthiest ones in Brazil thanks to their own diligence…

I would never ask you to donate money or to pay for someone’s education. On the contrary, I prefer ideology of the Chinese proverb that giving a fish to someone is pointless, you have to teach him how to fish… And this pisses me off in Brazil, because our tax burden is already too high, and our government is pretty assitencialist. So I hate the idea of having to work to pay for someone else’s delight…

However, what I’m trying to say is that you have to be careful not to transform your opinions into prejudice.

Stereotypes make our lives easier, I know that. Generalising is more convenient, too. But the immigrants from those little hellholes are not mentally ill. They are capable of adapting to Finnish culture and society. But maybe (MAYBE) there should be a bit more of goodwill in the part of Finns too. Simple attitudes at personal level can make a difference. Instead of ostricising foreingers because of their improper behaviour, teach them Finnish manners. Instead of not hiring an immigrant because of his/her language skills, give the person the job, but require him to enroll for a Finnish course and to show you the progress reports. Etc…

But if this sort of goodwill is already taking place in Finland, please, disregard this comment. Then the situation of immigrants is definitely their own fault.

-“I would never ask you to donate money or to pay for someone’s education. On the contrary, I prefer ideology of the Chinese proverb that giving a fish to someone is pointless, you have to teach him how to fish…”

Alas, someone has to pay to teachers. Someone has to pay for maintenance of the schools. There is no such thing as free lunch.

We can teach those foreigners to fish, but because they have nothing at all to use for fishing, we would have to provide them with fishing rod, line, hook, sinker and bait. Essentially put ready product into their hands before we could teach them how to use it.

And keep them alive during process of teaching. Or did you think students from say Namibia would live with sun (which is currently in short supply) and air alone?

Who pays for their residence? Who pays for their clothes? Who pays for their food?

-“Instead of ostricising foreingers because of their improper behaviour, teach them Finnish manners.”

Problem here is that Finns do not think manners on conscious level. Our culture and way of life is so deeply ingrained to us that we do things without ever thinking of it.

Second problem is that many immigrants do not want to learn and adjust. They want to keep living as if they never moved to another country, and people preaching multiculturalism try to support this rather stupid position!

“Finns must adjust to accept your cultural tradition in name of tolerance and multiculturalism.” That is essentially the message multiculturalists (who have very little and/or very specific contact with other cultural groups which permits them to ignore the problems caused by it).

-“Instead of not hiring an immigrant because of his/her language skills, give the person the job, but require him to enroll for a Finnish course and to show you the progress reports.”

Problem is, you can’t afford to have someone totally nonproductive in your workforce for several years until they reach sufficient fluency.

Companies are not humanitarian charity organizations. They exist to make profit. Profit requires work input of employees, which must exceed to costs they cause.

-Companies are not humanitarian charity organizations. They exist to make profit. Profit requires work input of employees, which must exceed to costs they cause.

Have you ever heard of “Social Responsibility”? Personally I think it’s pure hypocrisy, but there’s nothing more profitable than that nowadays…

You, Tiwaz, CANNOT avoid globalisation, and neither can Finland. I know it causes many problems, I know it’s difficult for different cultures to co-exist, but this is the path that our civilisation has taken.

Why do you insist on blocking the entrance of immigrants? It would be more sensible strengthening Finnish culture and its sovereignty… Paying for their education and language courses is the best way to do this…

So, now you can choose: a load of immigrants subordinate to Finnish culture (sponsored by yourself) or a bunch of immigrants that do not speak Finnish and do not respect the local way of life.

I think that rather than wasting its money on teaching immigrants Finnish the government should invest in a project getting lazy Finns to work. As a Finnish-speaking immigrant taxpayer I am sick and tired of watching indolent Finns drink away my tax money. As a bartender I have plenty of eyewitness experience. The everyday drunks that I serve are the chronically unemployed Finns that have no reason to go to work because Sossu takes care of them and has for years.

Why is it that immigrants in the restaurant industry seem to have no problem learning Finnish but the highly-educated immigrants in the IT fields can’t seem to be bothered to learn? In my neighborhood the majority of cooks, waiters, bartenders, etc are immigrants and we all speak Finnish to some degree. Why? Because we have to.

-“Have you ever heard of “Social Responsibility”? Personally I think it’s pure hypocrisy, but there’s nothing more profitable than that nowadays… ”

Have you ever heard of “bullshit”. Because that is what it is. Social Responsibility does not bring money to company. Thus, it is buzzword and not practical solution.

-“You, Tiwaz, CANNOT avoid globalisation, and neither can Finland. I know it causes many problems, I know it’s difficult for different cultures to co-exist, but this is the path that our civilisation has taken.”

No, we cannot prevent it. But we CAN admit it in OUR terms.

Different cultures co-existing is not just “difficult”. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

Society is like a machine. It depends on every individual cog turning in relative harmony with the rest. Culture is the mechanic of ensuring that process.

Different culture, different way cogs work. And thus, if you try to introduce multiple “acceptable” solutions to single society, it falls apart.

This civilization has taken many wrong steps in the past. Communism was said to be unstoppable power by those who supported it, just like multiculturalism today. Where is it today? Hmm?

Multiculturalism and communism have common traits which doom them both. First and foremost is the denial of human nature.

Communism assumed humans are not ultimately very selfish creatures. Multiculturalism assumes different cultures somehow magically can work together.

Both are unrealistic and idiotic assumptions.

-“Why do you insist on blocking the entrance of immigrants? It would be more sensible strengthening Finnish culture and its sovereignty… Paying for their education and language courses is the best way to do this…”

How do you strengthen Finnish culture and sovereignty if foreigners are free to make up their own rules?

As for paying for education, again. If they do not remain in Finland, those are resources better spent on Finns.
If they do not adjust to Finnish society but insist on being unintegrated troublemakers, they again become negative contributors to society.

I have repeatedly said that I welcome hard working immigrants who accept that they MUST CHANGE TO FIT FINLAND. Those are ones who are contributors to this society.

Finland has tried the carrot approach. Hell, lots of western world has attempted it.

It does not work! It just does not work!!!

So it is time to change the approach. Instead of feeding carrots, time to put one carrot further away from immigrants and start applying stick to tell them it is advisable to take that carrot.

Let’s say for example that interpretation services in public services are from henceforth billed.

You get “free” (as I have said there is no real free lunch but let’s forget that for a moment) service at KELA, police etc if you use Finnish or Swedish.
If they have to provide English or anything else, add 50 euro charge.

This of course applies only to non-emergency issues. Police would respond in English without charge to cases of crime, but not issuing driver’s license etc.

That would soon motivate people to learn Finnish. At least for those who have to work for their money.

How to sort out those who do not… Well, that is another question.

-“I think that rather than wasting its money on teaching immigrants Finnish the government should invest in a project getting lazy Finns to work. As a Finnish-speaking immigrant taxpayer I am sick and tired of watching indolent Finns drink away my tax money. As a bartender I have plenty of eyewitness experience. The everyday drunks that I serve are the chronically unemployed Finns that have no reason to go to work because Sossu takes care of them and has for years.”

I hear you willie… And I damn sure agree.
Of course, problem is that those guys are useless dregs who will never be employed no matter what we do. They are sent to some course, where they put forth half arsed effort to get back to easy life as soon as possible.

Sadly, we cannot do a thing with them. They are natives so we can’t kick them out. Not that I would not want to see Finland being freed from them.

So best we can do is try to prevent importing more useless resource drains to this country.

Well said mate. However I have to say, I’m one of those immigrates who never learned the language, but I still don’t see me as a burden to Finland, quite the opposite.

I started working 20 days after the day I set foot there, and have been ever since. All the years I’ve been living there the only welfare benefit I ever received was 6 weeks of paternity leave from my 2 children, and having my tax rate close to 40% I think I have given my contribution to the Finnish welfare system.

I don’t speak the language, but I always played by the Finnish rules. I never demand special space or recognition. Enrique can tell you that for a Latin guy being in a small and dark room, naked, with other naked and drunk guys is not really comfortable. But yet I never complain or tried to changed it. Differently than another immigrant in our team who decided this was against his religious background and demanded the line manager to stop the sauna evenings. For me, if this is how things are, than, this is how things are…

Furthermore I consider myself well adapted and integrated into the Finnish society, even without the language. An “invisible” immigrant as Enrique said once. We have many couple friends who are Finns only and I have two Finnish godchildren. Although we know many foreigners in there we didn’t restrict our social network to non Finns only, as many do.

I have said this here several times, language is very important but it’s not all. I think the right attitude, sometimes, can be even more important.

“like most immigrants, Ahmed and her husband took advantage of the free Finnish language lessons offered by the government, which pays immigrants 8 per day to attend. The government also provides immigrants with a free home, health care for their family and education for their children. In addition, they get a monthly stipend of 367 per adult to cover expenses until they start earning their own living.”

See now theres the reason, why work if living is free. You don’t have any handouts in teh USA past your first months and then its up to your own initiative.

How they praise the Finnish people for its tolerance, respect, curiosity and friendly nature.

How they praise the Finnish system for its fairness and how the government has helped them in their beginning. That they would have much more problems and difficult if they were in another European country.

Quite the opposite of what this blog has been saying.

I think this article proves once and for all what I have been saying here for months, there are immigrants and “immigrants”.

Enrique, my friend, it’s about time you change your blog’s editorial line, start to be fair when talking about the problems and in particularly about the reasons, and for the sake of balanced journalism stop accusing Finns and Finland for the failure of those who would fail anywhere they go…

–Enrique, my friend, it’s about time you change your blog’s editorial line, start to be fair when talking about the problems and in particularly about the reasons, and for the sake of balanced journalism stop accusing Finns and Finland for the failure of those who would fail anywhere they go…

There are many ways of looking at a society. From your employment perspective in Ireland, which I am very happy that you have succeeded, is how you see things. Sometimes we have differences of opinion and these are healthy in a democratic society. But I will make one point crystal clear to you, my friend: I will not let down my guard until Finland becomes a land of opportunity for those that move here as with those that live here. Why? Because I believe that it can be done.

So if we put these data together with the channel 4 research that shows 80% Somali unemployment the UK, plus add the Berit Kiuru interview with show that majority of adults Somalis who comes to Finland need to use fingerprint as signature, I think we can start to understand the real nature of this problem. Can’t we?

Well I have a good friend from US who have been living in Finland for about 16 years, but still doesn’t speak Finnish. He can catch a word where and there, but that’s pretty much it. However I consider him very well adapted and integrated into the Finnish society.

He’s a senior engineer working for Nokia, pay all his taxes, have a Finnish wife and 3 kids. Lots of Finnish friends.

But more importantly…

Never demanded any recognition or space, he’s just another member of Finnish society. At work he behaves just like anyone else, no “cultural” demands. His children go to school just like all the other children, no “cultural” requirements for them. The same can be said about his wife.

The only difference between his family and any other Finnish family is that he was born abroad. He went to Finland and plaid by Finnish rules rather than try to changed it, and guest what? He succeeded… Coincidence?

When you try so hard to be so different you can’t really complain that you are seeing differently, can you?

Using your theory that Finns are racists, Finnish companies discriminate and Finnish system is unfair to foreigners, how do you explain that?

“Pérez Fanaci, who has been in Finland for three months and working at Enjoy It for a month, adds that people are unbelievably friendly, even though he does not speak more than a few words of Finnish as yet…. Customer Hanna Pölkki, sitting on a sofa and sipping coffee, says that even though she was surprised at getting English service at first, it did not bother her.”

Another crazy foreigner who has no idea what he’s talking about?

Or is the Finnish government brain washing some of us so we can’t see the “reality” out there?

–Using your theory that Finns are racists, Finnish companies discriminate and Finnish system is unfair to foreigners, how do you explain that?

Tony, when have I said or written a sentence that says that Finns (you are implying ALL) are racist? I have never made such a statement. You should know that I like to use the term “some” before accusing some group. Not all Finns are racists like not all Swedes or people from other groups are.

“There are many ways of looking at a society. From your employment perspective in Ireland, which I am very happy that you have succeeded, is how you see things.”

Sorry but I see things from my employment perspective in Finland. I have, BTW, succeeded in UK, Finland and Ireland, why? Because I don’t pick a fight bigger than I can handle. I could have applied, when I got to Finland, for a senior specialist job, with I was completely under qualified for, and complain that I didn’t get the job because racism. Couldn’t I?

“Why? Because I believe that it can be done.”

Of course it can, and it’s here right now, you just don’t want to see it. Did you really read the link Blomhat posted?

“…There are many success stories”

Why is that? Why the system “allow” some to succeed and “prevent” other from? Common Enrique, it’s time to be a bit fair here…

“Those are explained to you many times already…”

Yes, and with facts, not academic concepts, but Enrique still preferred to believe that an adult Somali who can’t write his own name is unemployed in Finland because racism. Oh boy…

“This year, some three hundred Afghanis have tried to cross on foot from Russia into Finland. The reason is economic dire straits. The recession has taken away their livelihood in Moscow.”

“Those who are picked up on the Russian side are put in a prison cell, while those caught on the Finnish side find themselves in reception centres to enjoy, well, not perhaps the fabled bananas of West Germany, but at least the highest supplementary benefits of any country in the European Union.”

-“Sometimes we have differences of opinion and these are healthy in a democratic society. But I will make one point crystal clear to you, my friend: I will not let down my guard until Finland becomes a land of opportunity for those that move here as with those that live here. Why? Because I believe that it can be done.”

And guess what. I will not let my guard down as long as someone tries to push this failure called multiculturalism into my beloved home.

I will not leg my guard down before every immigrant coming here understands that their ass is NOT source of shining sunlight and THEY must adjust to Finland instead of demanding appeasement.

Why? Because I KNOW that should your desire come reality, Finland is going to become shit place to live in. We will have misery and internal conflicts we are spared from in functional society which today exists.

Enrique, I want to see you prove that immigrants are NOT treated equally. Here is catch, I expect you to prove that in large majority of cases immigrant is treated worse than native Finn with IDENTICAL skillset.

That means, you cannot say that immigrant is discriminated against if they cannot put together three words in Finnish while Finn speaks fluent Finnish, English and most likely third language on top of that.

That means you cannot cry discrimination if immigrant does not have grasp of cultural norms of Finnish society and because of that makes an ass from himself in job interview.

That means you cannot cry discrimination of immigrant does not have equally good education compared to Finn, in RECOGNIZED form. It does not matter if immigrant has PhD from Hicksville Uni Alabama, he has to have paper where it is recognized into Finnish equivalent.

Immigrants by and large are equal in Finland, it is their own stupidity which often shoots them in the leg.

Why would employer hire guy who has graduation papers which for all we know come from box of Corn Flakes?

My junkmail email address receives plenty of offers where they are prepared to give me graduation papers for wide variety of professions. Because of this we expect papers to be handed over to local universities who recognize them into Finnish equivalents.

Why would employer hire guy who can’t speak Finnish when whole work community is going to be Finnish speaking? Specially if there is equally skilled guy next door waiting for his interview who DOES speak Finnish?

Why would employer hire guy who makes bad impression by not figuring out that job interview in Finland and job interview in Hicksville Alabama are two totally different things and because of that comes across as an ass?

–And guess what. I will not let my guard down as long as someone tries to push this failure called multiculturalism into my beloved home.

Tiwaz, time to wake up and smell the coffee: globalization and economic growth are those factors that have made our societies in Europe more diverse. In this modern world we live in you cannot go around claiming “blood-and-culture” rights because you are too lazy or unwilling to accept competition.

I posted here, some time ago, the newest attempt from Swedish government to integrate immigrants and make them a productive part of Swedish society. They are trying compulsory integration courses for non western immigrants. Will that work? Well we’ll need to wait and see…

But now it’s the Germany’s time to try to find a solution to its multicultural nightmare.

So another country with tried multiculturalism and saw its failure. Now, just like the Swedish, they go back to square 1 and try something new, and pray for that to work this time…

Of course, they don’t have problems with all immigrants, just like Finland, France, UK, Ireland and others, it’s just about some groups. Groups with rather than integrate into the main society prefer create ghettos, increasing criminality at the same time milking the system. And, as it couldn’t be different, crying racism.

I’m still having trouble to understand how can a country integrate people who insist in not integrate?

–But now it’s the Germany’s time to try to find a solution to its multicultural nightmare.

— By multicultural, I believe you are talking about the diversity of German society and the right of people to retain their culture. Sorry Tony, but this integration contract is a red herring. And, if you ask my opinion, it will be a dismal failure. In Spain they proposed something similar and the first question was “what was Spanish culture” and why doesn’t the right-wing PP draft a similar contract for the Catalans and Basques. The problem with all these schemes is that some politicians have an issue with diversity and have outdated views about how society and culture works.

The “multicultural nightmare” is nothing more than the “nightmarish failure” of German society to live with its diversity.

I believe the best integrator is not a piece of paper but equal opportunities in society.

Just got off work. Another night of pouring booze down Finnish throats. One of my customers tonight was a recent immigrant. She’s been here (in Finland)for 3 weeks and has a job already. A full time job and she doesn’t speak Finnish (yet). Although she has a masters degree in something or other she decided that work is better than no work and is now scrubbing toilets for Lassila and Tikanoja. She likes this country and wants to live here and is willing to do what it takes to make a go of things.

Any immigrant who complains that Finns just won’t give them jobs either has too high standards are they are just plain lazy. Same goes for chronic Finnish sossu bums. The work is out there if you want it.

Hi Willie, I hope you had a good rest. I totally agree with you. One has to be proactive and find the opportunities that are out there. Finding and getting a job in Finland probably reveals a lot about the inefficiencies of our social welfare system, reticent unions, petty nationalism and different interest groups that want more or to keep the power they have. As more immigrants come to Finland they will expose some of the faults in our society. By correcting these matters we will make Finland a stronger country.

-Tiwaz, time to wake up and smell the coffee: globalization and economic growth are those factors that have made our societies in Europe more diverse.”

Time for you to smell the coffee.
NONE OF THAT MEANS IT IS GOOD CHANGE!

In fact, it is not! It is destroying the societies from within, as immigrants demand appeasement from native population. It is definite route to civil war or ethnic cleansing as we have learned from history.

Globalization and economic growth have led to need for poor underclass who would do the shitty jobs for peanuts and bananas. And for corporations that equals immigrants from variety of shithole nations who think that 10 euros is big money.

When they come, they have no prospect of success. They cannot even fucking write their own name in societies where literacy rates come commonly in triple digits before decimal point.

-“In this modern world we live in you cannot go around claiming “blood-and-culture” rights because you are too lazy or unwilling to accept competition.”

I am willing to accept competition. But problem is, you cannot handle that immigrantsare not ABLE to compete because of their OWN shortcomings. Let’s take this part here from your response to Willie:
-“inding and getting a job in Finland probably reveals a lot about the inefficiencies of our social welfare system, reticent unions, petty nationalism and different interest groups that want more or to keep the power they have. As more immigrants come to Finland they will expose some of the faults in our society. By correcting these matters we will make Finland a stronger country.”

THIS IS LOAD OF SHIT!

Willie just said she had Master’s degree. In what FUCKING FIELD?

What you sternly refuse to accept is that immigrants cannot expect in most fields to have ANY success until they learn two essential things.

1) Finnish
2) How things are done in Finland.

Until they learn THAT, they are NOT competitive. They cannot compete in my field with me, because I speak local lingo, I speak foreign lingo and I know how things work.

How about that for competing. Foreigners have to ALWAYS learn local ways of acting before they can compete.

Only total imbecile assumes that some foreign yokel straight off the Ryanair flight from Whatsitcalled is on equal standing with native.

They are not, because they do not have same skills. And SKILLS define how well you do in employment.

As for what you call “petty nationalism”. Again you might find it petty, but then again you are not Finn. You are foreigner who as per his own admittance lacks any roots. You are drifter, person who cannot identify himself.

Our culture and identity are tied together. We are Finns, we live through Finnish culture and we want to live in society which first and foremost feels like home. That means society which is built on Finnish culture.

THESE are things which make Finland strong country. Because they deny divisions which your idealism would introduce.

Britain was strong when it was unified, today it is shithole with so much divisions in it’s society that it barely functions.

Germany struggles as dividing line between Germans and Turks who want to establish their own Little Turkey in Germany causes problems.

Immigrant neighborhoods in France are places where violent riots just wait to ignite every day.

Sweden is experiencing how “wonderful” their enlightened society is when immigrant groups refuse to work with the society, instead acting against it.

Is it anymore surprising that Switzerland just voted to deny minarets in their country? They have smelled the coffee just like I have. Either you stand up for your own culture, way of life and society. Or you see it crumble down as foreigners try to dominate it.

Already Aesop saw the necessity of motto “united we stand, divided we fall”.

Country divided to half a dozen cultural groups each insisting to have their way is society divided. It falls in slightest breeze.

Society where everyone agrees and follows same principles and rules is one which is unified. You can attack such society, you can even occupy land of such society. But you can never conquer such society.

I want to see Finland stand strong, stand firm and remain that way for my children and grandchildren.

And that means that foreigners better accept that this is Finland, and here things are not like at home. If you can’t, you can step up in the plane back where you came from. We hold no ill will for you for doing so.

Yes I’m asking your opinion, and you are dead right. This won’t work, neither will the Swedish classes. It’ll be another waste of time, effort and money. You can’t integrate who doesn’t want to integrate, it’s just that simple. Africans and Muslims will sign anything beforehand, but as soon as they set foot in Germany will give a big and loud fuck off to everyone…

I didn’t post that because I believe in this contract, I just want to show how governments are desperate. After been, for years, selling the wonders of multiculturalism to its people, now that they see that it doesn’t work, they just don’t know what to do.

“The “multicultural nightmare” is nothing more than the “nightmarish failure” of German society to live with its diversity.”

You are right again. That is the only way forward for many politicians, stick the head in the sand, ignore the truth and keep blaming the people, furthermore hope that the people will be stupid, not see what is going on and not vote , even more, for the right.

“I believe the best integrator is not a piece of paper but equal opportunities in society.”

That’s what they call it, Tony – competition. If you have immigrants you bring new blood, ideas and competition. You cannot run away and use racism to protect yourself. Thus, in a society with equal opportunity (as the law states in Finland) people will realize their strengths, grow and contribute to society. The other route of exclusion will only worsen matters.

“A Muslim woman from Kista north of Stockholm who was denied a job as a dentist after refusing to wear short-sleeved work clothes for religious reasons has lost her discrimination case against the Swedish Public Dental Service (Folktandvården).”

-“All I am doing, Tony, is giving you official unemployment estimates for immigrants in Finland.”

All you are doing is presenting estimates and drawing conclusion that it is because Finns are evil.

You refuse to accept that groups with biggest unemployment are themselves faulty.

Somalians, 70+% unemployment. Hmm… Wonder why.

Oh, I have a novel idea! Maybe they can’t fucking READ OR WRITE! What kind of job guy who has no idea of anything but goat herding and considers dirty thumb print to be signature can expect to do in Finland where assumption is that:

Everyone is literate (often in multiple languages)
Everyone has minimum of 9 years of comprehensive studies.

Most people in LOWER end of employment scale have on top of that 3 years of vocational studies.

And on top of that, whole lot of them have high school diploma and bachelor’s degree or above.

Is it fault of Finns and Finland that most immigrants coming from their little hellholes have no way of competing with that level of education?

Your argument that it is unequal opportunity is same as me whining that I am not accepted as CEO of Nokia or chairman of Bank of Finland. Despite fact being that I have no skills to do either job.

Will you support my demand that this inequality of opportunity must be corrected and I shall be appointed to position of Jorma Ollila.

-“That’s what they call it, Tony – competition. If you have immigrants you bring new blood, ideas and competition. You cannot run away and use racism to protect yourself. Thus, in a society with equal opportunity (as the law states in Finland) people will realize their strengths, grow and contribute to society. The other route of exclusion will only worsen matters.”

It is only competition if they can compete. Problem is, your pet immigrants like Somalis do not have any skills to be able to compete with.

Finland is where it is because we have HIGH STANDARDS. To have Somalians employed would mean either creating unnecessary jobs for them, which is to say they move paperclips from pile A to B and back, which would be same as unemployment.

Or lower our standards forcefully which results in inferior quality of work as those immigrants have no way of performing tasks they would be hired to do.

That would do wonders for Finnish economy considering our living costs and other costs are so high that our ONLY hope in economy rests in high tech and high quality work.

Neither of which bills most immigrants can fulfill.

Enrique, how about being realist instead of whining how Finns are evil. Immigrants fail because they do not have skills to succeed. Immigrants have to adjust to society and learn skills which are useful IN FINLAND to prosper.

All this whining about them not being equal is pointless, they are not equal because they lack the skills to be equal.

I cannot be held equal to Anne-Mari Seppälä in swimming. I can swim, yes, but she can do it so much better. So my inequality is result of me not having spent hours upon hours in practicing. It is, essentially, my own shortcoming not failure of system.

It would be actually unfair for me to demand that I must be held equal in swimming to Anne-Mari, because I clearly cannot perform as well as she does.

As I stated, I am unsure of in what field her Master’s degree was. My point, however, was that she realized that without language skills it was in her best interest to take a job, any job, that would give her something productive to do. At the same time, she is learning Finnish in miniscule amounts every day. Thats how you learn a new language, little by little, and by trying. Perhaps she’ll be a cleaner for the rest of her professional Finnish life. Perhaps after several years she will learn enough Finnish to get a job in her field, whatever that may be. Perhaps along the way she will pick up some new skills. I think that it is admirable that she found work, any work, after just weeks of living here.

-“All this whining about them not being equal is pointless, they are not equal because they lack the skills to be equal.”

I agree. Although I am a bartender/manager and have been for over a decade, I wasn’t able to work as a bartender without supervision until I had acquired the certification required by the Finnish state neccessary to function as such. (Alkoholipassi, järkärikortti etc). Was this ridiculous? From a non-Scandinavian perspective yes. Was this unfair? No. Why? Because thats the way things are done here.

-“I want to see Finland stand strong, stand firm and remain that way for my children and grandchildren.”

Me too.

-“I cannot be held equal to Anne-Mari Seppälä in swimming. I can swim, yes, but she can do it so much better. So my inequality is result of me not having spent hours upon hours in practicing. It is, essentially, my own shortcoming not failure of system.”

And Tiwaz, I’m guessing you don’t look as good as Anne-Mari does in a swimsuit…;)

-“As I stated, I am unsure of in what field her Master’s degree was. My point, however, was that she realized that without language skills it was in her best interest to take a job, any job, that would give her something productive to do.”

I understand this, and I respect her for taking on a job she got.

But some people here do not grasp that Master’s degree in something which is strongly culturally related, for example marketing in many cases, from abroad can be totally useless unless you understand how system in new country works.

One prime example is legend of companies going to work in Middle East, make advertisements like they would in the west and forgetting that Arabian is read from right to left…

Not to mention that law in her native land and law in Finland are rarely same. Nuances are different, and if she comes from anglo world… Whole system is totally different as Finland goes with French version instead of British one.

Even though I understand that immigration brings social problems, I think this type of reporting shows the bias of the “reporter.” Who is the source? It’s pretty odd that there is no mention of this, which invalidates the whole story. Hannu, objective journalism brings all sides of the story not ONE. So, this kind of reporting is an opinion piece disguised as a “serious report.”

–Uunituoreen Saksan talousinstituutin tutkimuksen mukaan. Berliinin rikotilastot. You know those stupid statictiks and studies what doesnt go like you want them to go…

You did not answer my question: what is the news agency that put this story out and what is this “uunituoreen” German research the story speaks of? Hannu and all, this is a good example of biased editorialized “journalism” in its worst form.

Shoddy opinionated reporting. It sounds more like a statement, or editorial, than a story. These type os stories one should look 50 years from now. They won’t stand the test of time because they are racist and one-sided.

Immigration, for one, is a powerful force. It is new energy and innovation. If countries did not benefit from it, they would shut their doors and live in hermetically sealed worlds. Remember the Great Depression of the 1930s? Thanks to immigration, many countries have grown economically and demographically. Being an honest person, I understand that all social matters have their challenges as well. But I believe that the positive aspects outweigh the negative many times.
If you want to look at a country that was xenophobic and based all of its future on “culture and blood,” read the Nuremberg Trials of 1945-46. Read about Heinrich Himmler, Alfred Rosenberg and, especially, what Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz, wrote. Nazi Germany was racism gone wild and unchecked.

-“Shoddy opinionated reporting. It sounds more like a statement, or editorial, than a story. These type os stories one should look 50 years from now. They won’t stand the test of time because they are racist and one-sided.”

How come you were prepared to accept shoddy, racist statement where some tools asked bunch of immigrants if they were victims of racism anonymously and without any bother to verify their claims?

Double standards are bad for your argument Enrique.

-“Immigration, for one, is a powerful force. It is new energy and innovation. If countries did not benefit from it, they would shut their doors and live in hermetically sealed worlds.”

You forget that in the past, immigration was done as conquest. Those who were unable to protect their land lost it.

Today, world has changed. Now people are more free to immigrate. But do you know what… It has also revealed the dark face of immigration. Refusal to adjust, resentment of local culture. Demands for appeasement.

And when these totally unfair demands are refused, immigrants become force of crime, destruction and racism.

Modern style “free” immigration will die out in decade or two when western people decide they have had enough.

-“Being an honest person, I understand that all social matters have their challenges as well. But I believe that the positive aspects outweigh the negative many times.”

Feel free to believe. But do you have PROOF? We have proof. Studies like “Bowling alone” show how immigration destroys community cohesion, causing society to STAGNATE. It essentially hurts society because immigrants who refuse to leave their cultural baggage behind start to tear down society piece by piece. Society cannot work without cohesion. It is like having a machine and then adding cogs which work against other cogs. Result is broken machine which is useless.

-“Hannu, here is where our difference lies: immigration is positive NOT negative; cultural diversity IS welcomed and encouraged not something that you ridicule and destroy.”

WRONG AGAIN! As PROVEN, attempt to cultural diversity is equal to committing cultural suicide. Cultures which do not have ability and will to stand up against foreign cultures trying to impose themselves die out.

Diversity way you see it is impossible. You cannot have matter and anti-matter to happily coexist any more than you can have conflicting cultural values coexist in same space.

Today fools and people distanced from reality praise multiculturalism and diversity. But in one or two decades these WILL be called traitors and spat upon. Multiculturalism is experiment which has now been attempted, and it fails. It is time to move on.

Ah, but I blame foreigners for the immigrants not having jobs. See now its globalization and foreign stockholders. Those pink-haired grannies in Florida wanting their pensions, see – they own the big corporations. Back in the day if there was a problem with an area the government came in and as the government ran things they’d make a train factory or a car factory or a papermill… and people would have jobs.

Alas, globalization, EFTA, EEA, EU… protectionism is a thing of the past. Finland has no oil, no natural resources apart from loads of forest and all the industries slowly but surely taken across borders to cheaper countries. The big N is still left with some presence here, but one fine day they will pack up and go and what is there left then? How will the economy run without production industries? Everyone cannot be a multicultural advisor in a county council project, the money has to come from someplace.

So the problem is that theres no jobs, and creating jobs would be the key to then be able to give jobs to those who might be lacking the PhD, ten years work experience and willing to work for peanuts.

And speaking of peanuts – do note there is currently a “lack of workers” the companies want to bring in nurses from philippines and cleaners from china, so what are you then whining about? The reason is that there is a “lack of slaves” as those people brought in are thinking they have a good deal. So howcome Enrique they must bring in berry pickers from thailand or stoneworkers from china or nurses from the philippines – who none of them speak but a smattering of the language – if we then have “immigrants” unemployed? Hmmm… you claim to have studied sociology you explain this to me.

As I do read a lot, I just went back to reacquaint myself with Henri Charriere a.k.a. “Papillon” as I just scored a double bind of “Paillon” and “Banco” in English.

“Now for the reader, you must understand the Finnish hardback translations are abbreviated like readers digest books, so they lack a few important details.”

Anyhow, back in the steaming Venezuelan jungle just stepped out of El Dorado prison in 1946… thats when “Banco” starts. Now our friend is a piece of work welcomed into Venezuela as an “immigrant”, but does he go and whine and “demand” his rights and things? I ask you read the book. He forces himself to learn Spanish & English… he goes into business but as the times change he starts to notice he can’t pull off capers too easy. He moves to Spain in the 1970’s and tries to open a restaurant – “they wanted 13 different permits but then we were ready to open they wanted the 14th and we called it quits.” But does he sit and whine and complain of racism hes required 14 permits? Or that he can’t get a proper job speaking only French?

Hank, the Venezuela of the 1970s is a totally different thing than the EU in the new century. The red tape was, I am certain, a challenge. But it does not have anything to do with racism – it has to do with public servants doing their jobs (or the state finding work for them).

Hi Enrique, I wanted to give a final comment since I moved from Finland to Ireland a few weeks ago.

In my company are people from all over Europe. We all work together and it seems that there are no problems. Actually, its really fun and I feel as a part of a team (not isolated). You can hear from every corner a different language.

My room mates are from 3 different countries. Multiculturalism works but you need to have the right attitude for it (not like Tiwaz & Co). They make you feel like an outsider and you will lose your motivation to integrate yourself into a society.

I am happy that I made the step to Ireland. I will only go back to Finland if somebody is going to offer me a permanent job (which is most likely not the case).

I wish all immigrants good luck. If you want to come to Ireland, I can recommend you this job site http://www.jobs.ie and register your CV on monster. Here are many permanent jobs and you will have a great time. Finns are also welcome 🙂