Well, this is part of the official version in the Sira, though many of the first Muslims were "lettered" (Abu Sarh was Muhammed's first scribe and then later apostated, it's his story that Rushdie bases the character of the scribe in the 'The Satanic Verses')

Thanks for such a lengthy discussion. I had to go and do a little research about Abu Sarh. I couldn't find anything claiming that he was the first scribe. I only found that he was one amongst 42 of them. I also found this

Quote:

He apostatized but the reason stated in many accounts (i.e. verse 23:12) is not consistent because it goes against many established reports in the cUlūm al-Qur'ān. He returned to Islam and was a good Muslim.

According to Abū Omar, "cAbdullāh Ibn Sād Ibn Abī Sarh converted back to Islam during the conquest of Mecca and his Islam was fine, and later, his behavior was beyond reproach. He was among the wise and the noble from Quraysh, and was the knight of Banī 'Aamir Ibn Lu'ayy was respected among them.

Based on this information, I think he was respected and revered. So teachers indeed earned their respect in history and well into this modern age. We are teaching a different language, but the principles are mainly the same.

Well, this is part of the official version in the Sira, though many of the first Muslims were "lettered" (Abu Sarh was Muhammed's first scribe and then later apostated, it's his story that Rushdie bases the character of the scribe in the 'The Satanic Verses')

Thanks for such a lengthy discussion. I had to go and do a little research about Abu Sarh. I couldn't find anything claiming that he was the first scribe. I only found that he was one amongst 42 of them. I also found this

Quote:

He apostatized but the reason stated in many accounts (i.e. verse 23:12) is not consistent because it goes against many established reports in the cUlūm al-Qur'ān. He returned to Islam and was a good Muslim.

According to Abū Omar, "cAbdullāh Ibn Sād Ibn Abī Sarh converted back to Islam during the conquest of Mecca and his Islam was fine, and later, his behavior was beyond reproach. He was among the wise and the noble from Quraysh, and was the knight of Banī 'Aamir Ibn Lu'ayy was respected among them.

Based on this information, I think he was respected and revered. So teachers indeed earned their respect in history and well into this modern age. We are teaching a different language, but the principles are mainly the same.

I can't recall where I read he was the first, but he was definitely the first prominent one. But yes, he is recorded to have re-"reverted" upon Muhammed's conquest of Mecca - then again...a lot of people "reverted" (i.e. converted) when he came into Mecca. Due to their being a centralized authority early on within Islam (the Khalifa), the possibility of re-engineering history is much more possible/probable than movements that spread organically (and are thus usually decentralized) for several centuries before centralized authority is imposed/structured.

During my time as a teacher in an Omani College of Applied Sciences
I crossed paths with a few jokers, too. Though, sadly, none of them were quite as impressive as Heath Ledger,
who won a posthumous Oscar, of course; nor even Jack Nicholson.
Anyway, whether these jokers were respected or not -automatically or manually - wasn't my key concern at that time.

I was more concerned about the challenges confronted by the majority of my colleagues, who were applying themselves
-in what appeared to my eyes, at least- to be a professional, non-jokerly manner to their tasks.
(Even though, to be honest, I did enjoy gossiping about the jokers' latest exploits as well.)

As an adherent of the view that "Learning is more important
than teaching", I was more concerned about the increasing numbers
of predominantly male Omani students who were arriving at the College gate
without learning goals which bore meaning for them at a personal level.
They were simply there for the craic.

More generally, though, I do believe that, as EFL teachers, we should take more time out to show our respect -
and display our admiration - for those colleagues
who do excel and show leadership in the field.

Maybe Dave Sperling could add on an extension to this eslcafe...
if not a "Hall of Fame" , how about an "Alcove of Achievement"?!
After all, not all of us TEFLers fall asleep in our own vomit;
(well, at least not every night).

While I agree with you completely regarding learning being more important than teaching (although I suspect there may be a correlation rather than a dichotomy involved there) that really wasn't one of the topics under discussion on this thread (until you brought it up .)

Personally, having had both ESL/EFL colleagues and "regular teacher" colleagues, in my experience the EFL/ESL teachers tend to be better: more committed to their students, likely to spend more of their own time (and money) in order to do their job well, more apt to try "non-traditional" techniques, etc.

Also, in my experience, the number of "jokers" in ESL/EFL has been less than among "regular" public school teachers.

So, I'm all in favor of giving respect and admiration to those ESL/ELFL teachers who do excel and show leadership.

As far as I know, though, there is, unfortunately, no American equivalent to the ELTons.

In Saudi I often think 'what these guys really need is a good dose of Buddhism' and at least a semester's worth of how to be honest.

Buddhism and honesty don't belong in the same sentence. And what has this got to do with Oman anyway? With as many 'teachers' running around the world using fake credentials, this may be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

If you think so highly of Buddhism, don't you think it's time to get out of the Middle East and work in a Buddhist country full of oh so honest people?

In Saudi I often think 'what these guys really need is a good dose of Buddhism' and at least a semester's worth of how to be honest.

Buddhism and honesty don't belong in the same sentence. And what has this got to do with Oman anyway? With as many 'teachers' running around the world using fake credentials, this may be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

If you think so highly of Buddhism, don't you think it's time to get out of the Middle East and work in a Buddhist country full of oh so honest people?

Doh! Which one are you? Jim Carrey or Jeff Daniels?

What a stupid response. If I were Jim Carrey or Jeff Daniels, I would be too smart, too talented and too rich to care about posting on this forum! Duh!