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Add me to the list. Not enough story line for a miniseries or full season, IMO. I think it would have made a fine Bones or Criminal Minds 2-parter, but that's about it.

* SPOILER *

See, I didn't view it that way...

Spoiler

i saw it that she might actually be involved in the cult. What a great person to have working with you: the lead investigator. I also saw it as possibly that he will need to get messages out to his minions, so maybe they are going to let him and then watch how he does so they could find them.

i saw it that she might actually be involved in the cult. What a great person to have working with you: the lead investigator. I also saw it as possibly that he will need to get messages out to his minions, so maybe they are going to let him and then watch how he does so they could find them.

- Merg

Spoiler

Ya. She may be involved with him already. Since they just brought her in to the case and showed her getting up to speed, I assumed her giving him the book was the first contact she had with him. Either way, I'm sure she'll prove to be a 'groupie', and I still think it's pretty absurd he's getting any privileges. A little bit too "convenient" writing, IMHO. It's not like that have to rush to make any points, given the # of episodes they expect to air.

I agree with Merg's assessment, but I think you are right Steve. Either way, she will turn out to be what you said. And that is a total contrivance.

"But the freedom that they fought for, and the country grand they wrought for, is their monument today, and for aye." "This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."

If you look at ratings for the big 4 for Monday night, each network held its audience through prime. TF held almost all of the audience from Bones. That's a good sign for the show. It makes it more likely to air all eps (even though that was pledged by FOX already) and not be moved to Friday or Saturday. It increases odds of a 2nd season marginally. I may not continue to watch, but I am rooting for the show for a couple of reasons, including that Kevin needs to refill the piggy bank after Madoff.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

I agree with Merg's assessment, but I think you are right Steve. Either way, she will turn out to be what you said. And that is a total contrivance.

I agree as well.

Earlier I posted that I thought it was a good cast. The addition of Annie Parise can only help. But as a viewer I have to ask myself three questions:

1) Do I want to spend an hour a week with these people? Do I like them enough?2) Do I want to engage in a fantasy that delineates a world that can be this dark?3) Is the story believable enough or told well enough to allow me to hold on to the suspension of disbelief needed to get engrossed and be entertained?

A good show has to have a cast that is not only good, but that you want to imagine spending time with. The story not only has to be compelling, but one that you are interested in and is not too distateful. The execution has to be well done; story telling is a talent not all producers or writers or directors have.

I can't faithfully answer yes to any of those three questions. Quite obviously this is my opinion. If enough people share an opposite opinion, the show might have a longer shelf life than it probably will on my DVR. Still too early to tell. It could go either way. Right now, I find more drama in the fate of the show's real-life existential dilemma than I do in the show itself.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

Earlier I posted that I thought it was a good cast. The addition of Annie Parise can only help. But as a viewer I have to ask myself three questions:

1) Do I want to spend an hour a week with these people? Do I like them enough?2) Do I want to engage in a fantasy that delineates a world that can be this dark?3) Is the story believable enough or told well enough to allow me to hold on to the suspension of disbelief needed to get engrossed and be entertained?A good show has to have a cast that is not only good, but that you want to imagine spending time with. The story not only has to be compelling, but one that you are interested in and is not too distateful. The execution has to be well done; story telling is a talent not all producers or writers or directors have.

I can't faithfully answer yes to any of those three questions. Quite obviously this is my opinion. If enough people share an opposite opinion, the show might have a longer shelf life than it probably will on my DVR. Still too early to tell. It could go either way. Right now, I find more drama in the fate of the show's real-life existential dilemma than I do in the show itself.

Well you just articulated my feelings- that I hadn't quite defined yet!! I think I am done with it after last night. Mostly because of just what you said. The only thing I would add is that as a viewer I need some sort of reward. Something hopeful or at the very least the possibility of some small victory.

Last night was too dark and awful for me. I see no light at the end of the tunnel.

"But the freedom that they fought for, and the country grand they wrought for, is their monument today, and for aye." "This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."

Part of the issue might be the times we are in; what else is on. In a world where vampires, zombies, and meth dealers populate our most popular shows, and Saw gets to 5 sequels, possibly that emboldens a major network into thinking this is proper or a good idea.

I'm not saying it is improper or a bad idea, and the jury is still out; Zap2it moved it to the "likely to be renewed" list today, but they were high on the last 3 2nd-season FOX dramas which had similar ratings, and look where they are now.

I am OK with violence and dark subjects and suggestive situations. I think if done well they get all the license to exist they need. I don't think TF has earned or can earn that level of license, because the execution is just not top-shelf. They need to pull back, lay off the artificially-generated shock scenes, and find a way to get the audience invested in the characters and the story. Without that, ratings will drop. So far, its been slasher-film successful, and that's about it.

And I think Supramom is right about needing to reward the audience. We haven't even seen a small victory yet (although brutally breaking the guy's fingers was payback, at least); as this story goes along it just seems to get more and more depressing regarding where things can go. We need to see the plan to stop all of this start to gain ground, and quickly. And downplay the Moby Dick aspect, as that is just boring. We don't really care that the lead character has a bad history with this guy and once we know the back story, it's time to move the story forward. Compelling drama happens in the here and now, it doesn't lean on the back story as a crutch.

Edited by TomCat, 05 February 2013 - 07:41 PM.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

Last night one bad guy got "offed." Of course, that may not enough reward.

It's dark, but is it really darker than "Criminal Minds?" Or does it just seem that way because it doesn't have a Penelope Garcia weirdly funny character or an attractive couple of actors who brighten the otherwise dark screen?

In any event, it doesn't yet have a comfortable-feeling ensemble cast. Sometimes that takes most of a season and sometimes it never happens.

The ratings are ok. But we won't really be able to tell much until the last week in the February Sweeps and people here are already "iffy" about the show. Remember, when "Dancing with the Stars" and "The Voice" return in mid-March the ratings structure for Monday gets shuffled. Bill Gorman over at Zap2it did move it to the "likely to be renewed" list today, but as he noted he did the same for "Alcatraz" and we all know how that turned out. It's too early to tell if it will be renewed, but it is likely will see the whole season order of 15 episodes.

"In a hundred years there'll be a whole new set of people."
"Always poke the bears. They sleep too much for their own good."

And yes, one light-hearted character would make it less heavy and dark. And yes, it is darker than Criminal Minds because most episodes (no, not all), the bad guy gets caught. All we are seeing on The Following is escalating bad guys. And more of them at every episode.

Note, I didn't say it was more violent, or graphic than any other shows, just more dark and depressing. Criminal Minds and other violent shows do have moments of team camaraderie and fun. Maybe this one will down the road, but the ending video regarding the son, and the situation with the young Asian woman left me NOT wanting more.

"But the freedom that they fought for, and the country grand they wrought for, is their monument today, and for aye." "This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."

And yes, one light-hearted character would make it less heavy and dark. And yes, it is darker than Criminal Minds because most episodes (no, not all), the bad guy gets caught. All we are seeing on The Following is escalating bad guys. And more of them at every episode.

Note, I didn't say it was more violent, or graphic than any other shows, just more dark and depressing. Criminal Minds and other violent shows do have moments of team camaraderie and fun. Maybe this one will down the road, but the ending video regarding the son, and the situation with the young Asian woman left me NOT wanting more.

I don't disagree with you. I think the dark and depressing thing is what contributed to "Alcatraz" losing viewers. It's as if they moved control of new scripted programming on Fox over to FX which is oriented to a completely different audience and to a different metric for measuring success.

It is sad, in a way, because "Bones" does have that likeable set of characters. You can almost anticipate from the production company/producer/creator credits what the "feeling" of the show will be like. The creator/producer/sometimes-writer of "Bones", Hart Hanson, was involved in "Joan of Arcadia" and "Judging Amy."

Then there's "The Following" brought to you by the folks involved in "The Vampire Diaries", "The Secret Circle" and sometimes "Dexter." Yes they've done other things, but a weirdly dark series from them is not surprising.

I don't remember any TV shows plotted around the analysis of a cult dedicated to violence to others outside the group. The premise of one man mesmerizing from a distance such a varied group of people is "unique" and as we are seeing, even in this show, his control is limited by distance and time. In some respects, we have to believe that these "vampire butterflies" he has released into the world will cause some type of uncontrolled violent storms.

Also, Charlie Manson was a habitual criminal offender, likely mentally ill, and had been imprisoned. What we're being offered here is a pyschopathic intellect like Dr. Hannibal Lecter and usually those types are loners.

So I'm having some problems with the show. I guess I'd like to see an ensemble cast led by Kevin Bacon supported by James Purefoy, Shawn Ashmore, Annie Parisse, and Natalie Zea succeed.

But then I liked "Alcatraz."

"In a hundred years there'll be a whole new set of people."
"Always poke the bears. They sleep too much for their own good."

Just got done watching all three episodes and all I can say is wow what a fantastic show. Sure it maybe a little dark and the cops always seem to be one step behind the cult but I think that is just good storytelling. And to all those complaining about the 9pm time slot, it is what it is. Just to piss you off even more I would like to point out that it airs airs at 8 central and mountain times so there.

Last night one bad guy got "offed." Of course, that may not enough reward.

It's dark, but is it really darker than "Criminal Minds?" Or does it just seem that way because it doesn't have a Penelope Garcia weirdly funny character or an attractive couple of actors who brighten the otherwise dark screen?

In any event, it doesn't yet have a comfortable-feeling ensemble cast. Sometimes that takes most of a season and sometimes it never happens.

I like "darker". Heck, my favorite current show is probably The Walking Dead and it doesn't have weirdly funny character or a particularly attractive cast. But it does have a good ensemble, which I think The Following will eventually have. I also love Dexter, and while it has one or two weirdly funny characters it doesn't have an attractive cast either.

...I think the dark and depressing thing is what contributed to "Alcatraz" losing viewers. ...

Bingo.

Honestly, the cult of acolytes in TF is not all that different from the string of offenders in Alcatraz (which I liked also, but mostly for the acting of the 3 main characters). Both involve a team fighting the good fight against a formidable organized evil that they can't yet quantify, and both sort of lean toward a "criminal of the week" format.

...Also, Charlie Manson was a habitual criminal offender, likely mentally ill, and had been imprisoned. What we're being offered here is a pyschopathic intellect like Dr. Hannibal Lecter and usually those types are loners...

And if Manson was all that compelling, there would have been a string of successful movies or a TV series modeled on him. Maybe the decision was that Manson was too dark, and if so, the villian in TF is also too dark.

Hannibal Lecter is sort of in a category by himself. There were 3 successful movies about the character, one being immensely successful, but then as I keep saying, really good execution can buy you a lot of license and make graphic violence otherwise acceptable.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

I haven't watched last night's episode, but the the ratings in the demo dropped by about 17% from last week which was down 12% from the week before. In the 50+ crowd, for four weeks the show has seen a 25% decline as follows: 7.2, 6.7, 6.0, and 5.4 million. The issue now is whether to get further invested in it.

"In a hundred years there'll be a whole new set of people."
"Always poke the bears. They sleep too much for their own good."

It sounds like you are basing your investment in the ratings; as if cancelling it would mean that you wasted time watching the first eps. We are pretty much guaranteed by FOX that 15 eps will air.

As Lost taught us, you should probably base whether you want to watch a show on whether you are enjoying yourself. Even if a show is going nowhere, it can be entertaining as encapsulated episodes. It's not like reading a mystery novel and being afraid that someone will rip the book out of your hands before you get to the last chapters, and even in that case, the same Q applies: are you enjoying yourself enough to stay invested? If not, the answer as to what to do is obvious.

That said, I will sometimes put a "watch" embargo on shows I have recorded if I think they might get cancelled, but that applies to shows with little other redeeming value than the overaching story, that I am on the fence about. It is not uncommon for me to hold a whole season of some luke-warm CW show, and end up dumping the entire series when it is obvious that I will never want to watch it. 2 TB HDDs allow that.

On the other hand, I got to ep 4 of Last Resort and decided to hold off watching; it looked like it was doomed, which it was. But I had eventually had all 13 eps and started watching it again, because it still was above the Mendoza line, even being cancelled. It often does not matter if the story eventually goes nowhere if it is still a good story otherwise.

The House of Cards experiment on Netflix is interesting in that they made all 13 eps available at once, and lots of folks ate that up. That says something for the release model, but it sure does not brighten the dim future of the conventional advertising model.

Edited by TomCat, 12 February 2013 - 06:51 PM.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

Not sure. That is what I understand is pledged by them, along with the intent (whatever that means) to air them on 15 weeks without a break. I think Kevin Bacon also mentioned this in his The Daily Show interview, but memory sometimes doesn't serve, so no guarantee there either.

But there is this new thing called Google that might lead you to a clue. Give that a try.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

As many of us had predicted, another dip in the ratings. Trending in a direction they probably did not have in mind. It appears that folks tuned out after Bones on FOX (and The Carrie Diaries on CW) and moved over to CBS. Me among them, although I don't watch any of those shows anyway, and now including TF.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

Not sure. That is what I understand is pledged by them, along with the intent (whatever that means) to air them on 15 weeks without a break. I think Kevin Bacon also mentioned this in his The Daily Show interview, but memory sometimes doesn't serve, so no guarantee there either.

But there is this new thing called Google that might lead you to a clue. Give that a try.

Ahhh, another one of your "facts". You're the one who brought it up, you use Google to find it.