Originally posted by TorchslasherForgive me for not knowing X-Men lore, but didn't Famke die at the end of X2? Is Dark Phoenix the alternate Jean Grey? I'm confused.

Surely you know that a Phoenix dies, only to be born again...

This page has a pretty good summary of the original Phoenix saga, even though it's technically the entry for Jean's alternate-timeline daughter (and hoo boy does THAT take a while to explain). For comic spoilers, read the linked "History" section down to and including the paragraph that begins "Phoenix and the X-Men were immediately teleported...", as that's as far as they're likely to take it in the next movie.

Short summary of the original comics for the link-impaired, without spoiling too much:* Jean Grey pilots the shuttle home, but is fried by solar radiation. Shuttle crashes, Jean is presumed dead.* Jean flies out of the water in a new costume, renames herself "Phoenix," and continues on with the team.* Phoenix's power levels are off the charts and rising steadily. * Power corrupts, passion overwhelms, and an old X-foe tampering with her mind doesn't help matters.* Phoenix loses control and becomes Dark Phoenix, a primal force on a cosmic level. The team tries to find a way to stop her without killing their teammate and friend.

Now, how much of _that_ will be filmed and how significantly they'll change it for the screenplay remains to be seen. The Jean Grey saga had a major twist in the mid-80's that severely rewrote the events above, and it's hard to say whether the movie will go with the original interpretation, the rewrite, or both.

Originally posted by TorchslasherForgive me for not knowing X-Men lore, but didn't Famke die at the end of X2? Is Dark Phoenix the alternate Jean Grey? I'm confused.

Surely you know that a Phoenix dies, only to be born again...

This page has a pretty good summary of the original Phoenix saga, even though it's technically the entry for Jean's alternate-timeline daughter (and hoo boy does THAT take a while to explain). For comic spoilers, read the linked "History" section down to and including the paragraph that begins "Phoenix and the X-Men were immediately teleported...", as that's as far as they're likely to take it in the next movie.

Short summary of the original comics for the link-impaired, without spoiling too much:* Jean Grey pilots the shuttle home, but is fried by solar radiation. Shuttle crashes, Jean is presumed dead.* Jean flies out of the water in a new costume, renames herself "Phoenix," and continues on with the team.* Phoenix's power levels are off the charts and rising steadily. * Power corrupts, passion overwhelms, and an old X-foe tampering with her mind doesn't help matters.* Phoenix loses control and becomes Dark Phoenix, a primal force on a cosmic level. The team tries to find a way to stop her without killing their teammate and friend.

Now, how much of _that_ will be filmed and how significantly they'll change it for the screenplay remains to be seen. The Jean Grey saga had a major twist in the mid-80's that severely rewrote the events above, and it's hard to say whether the movie will go with the original interpretation, the rewrite, or both.

(edited by vsp on 8.4.05 1012)

Of course...

Spoiler Below: Highlight text to read

In traditional X-Men comics the Dark Phoenix ended up killing a bunch of planets and being hunted down. The X-Men (especially Cyclops) tried to save her, but she sacrificed herself so that the Phoenix Force wouldn't go crazy again and kill a bunch of people.

Then Cyclops got married to Jean's clone.

Then they found Jean underwater in an egg, right as rain. Y'see, the Dark Phoenix saved Jean by becoming her and saving the X-Men from certain doom.

I'm a little dissapointed that Brian Singer won't be directing X-Men 3, as he obviously did a great job with the first two movies, so it's important for the film to retain the same cast.

Hugh Jackman has agreed to return and it's a no brainer to think that everyone else will, too. With the exception of Halle Berry who seems adamant about noy returning unless Storm saves the world and then gives an hour speech on how she managed to do it. There's talk that we may get a new Cyclops as well.

Originally posted by TorchslasherForgive me for not knowing X-Men lore, but didn't Famke die at the end of X2? Is Dark Phoenix the alternate Jean Grey? I'm confused.

Surely you know that a Phoenix dies, only to be born again...

This page has a pretty good summary of the original Phoenix saga, even though it's technically the entry for Jean's alternate-timeline daughter (and hoo boy does THAT take a while to explain). For comic spoilers, read the linked "History" section down to and including the paragraph that begins "Phoenix and the X-Men were immediately teleported...", as that's as far as they're likely to take it in the next movie.

Short summary of the original comics for the link-impaired, without spoiling too much:* Jean Grey pilots the shuttle home, but is fried by solar radiation. Shuttle crashes, Jean is presumed dead.* Jean flies out of the water in a new costume, renames herself "Phoenix," and continues on with the team.* Phoenix's power levels are off the charts and rising steadily. * Power corrupts, passion overwhelms, and an old X-foe tampering with her mind doesn't help matters.* Phoenix loses control and becomes Dark Phoenix, a primal force on a cosmic level. The team tries to find a way to stop her without killing their teammate and friend.

Now, how much of _that_ will be filmed and how significantly they'll change it for the screenplay remains to be seen. The Jean Grey saga had a major twist in the mid-80's that severely rewrote the events above, and it's hard to say whether the movie will go with the original interpretation, the rewrite, or both.

(edited by vsp on 8.4.05 1012)

In a Classic X-men backstory, Claremont explained that the Phoenix Force took Jean's shape and form while putting Jean herself in a healing cocoon in the bottom of either Hudson Bay or NY Harbor (I can't remember). Of course--no one knows this until the late 80s when they decide they need to resurrect Jean for X-Factor (a book about the five original members--Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Iceman, Angel and Beast).

The Phoenix Force can not deal with the human condition and emotions and eventually goes mad--causing it(her--depending upon when you were reading the story) to become Dark Phoenix. It doesn't help that Mastermind was seducing Jean with his illusion powers in order to gain membership into the HellFire Club.

In the original plans, Chris Claremont and John Byrne were going to have the Shi'Ar strip Jean (who was really Phoenix at that time and not being impersonated by Phoenix force) of all her powers permanently--a psychic labotomy if you will. The editors disagreed because they felt that having Jean live after Dark Phoenix destroyed an entire galaxy (by consuming its sun) was not acceptable, so Claremont and Byrne had to rework the last 10 pages or so of the comic to have Jean momentarily regain power over the Phoenix Force and kill herself. The editors also felt like Phoeniox was the Thor of the X-men, essentially so powerful that she made the rest of the cast unnecessary.

I am interested in seeing how they will re-tool the story for the movie. The Dark Phoenix Saga is one of the greatest X-men stories-giving us such awesome characters as Kitty Pride, Dazzler and the HellFire Club. Yup.

Originally posted by DrOpIn a Classic X-men backstory, Claremont explained that the Phoenix Force took Jean's shape and form while putting Jean herself in a healing cocoon in the bottom of either Hudson Bay or NY Harbor (I can't remember). Of course--no one knows this until the late 80s when they decide they need to resurrect Jean for X-Factor (a book about the five original members--Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Iceman, Angel and Beast).

Between you and Freeway, so much for not spoiling too much... oh, well.

The original stories, up through Uncanny #137, were classics. They were smart enough to leave Jean dead and merely tease "returns" (one incident where Kitty scares a Shi'ar crew shitless by appearing in the Dark Phoenix costume, and then Mastermind's mind games up to and approaching #175) for years.

Then someone decided to push the Big Red Retcon button and all sorts of goofy shit happened.

Spoiler Below: Highlight text to read

* The whole "Oh, Jean was safe in a healing cocoon at the bottom of the bay all this time" retcon to make X-Factor possible.* Oh, and did they forget that Scott had a wife? Nah. She just gets kicked to the curb when Jean "wakes up," then is (a) hunted down by assassins, (b) sort of adopted by the X-Men, (c) tempted by demons and joins them in a pact to get revenge and permanently open a dimensional portal to their world, (d) revealed as a clone, (e) revealed as having had latent powers all along, (f) which turned out to be a chunk of the Phoenix Force that went fishing for a body with Jean's genetic code when Jean died (and, gee, isn't it convenient that Mr. Sinister, a villain who hadn't even been written yet at that time, just so happened to be growing one off in the distance somewhere). Nothing major.

Did we mention that she appeared out of the blue in Avengers Annual #10 (the one where Rogue debuts, before Maddy's first appearance as an adult in Uncanny) as a young child? Yeah, that's a continuity quirk.

Now, as for what'll go in the MOVIE, it's about 50/50 whether they'll take the traditional "Jean dies" route or go for a "Oh, Jean's been replaced by an alien force, but here comes the REAL Jean to defeat it" copout ending. Bets?

Originally posted by vspNow, as for what'll go in the MOVIE, it's about 50/50 whether they'll take the traditional "Jean dies" route or go for a "Oh, Jean's been replaced by an alien force, but here comes the REAL Jean to defeat it" copout ending. Bets?

X2 is bookended by Xavier's monologue about evolution and genetic codes suddenly leaping forward. I suspect the Phoenix will be explained as a progression past the first mutant stage jumpstarted by Magneto's machine from the first film. Remember, Scott commented early in X2 that she had been behaving differently since the battle at the Statue of Liberty.

Originally posted by vspDid we mention that she appeared out of the blue in Avengers Annual #10 (the one where Rogue debuts, before Maddy's first appearance as an adult in Uncanny) as a young child? Yeah, that's a continuity quirk.

Not the same Madelyne Pryor. The rec.arts.comics.xbooks FAQ (users.rcn.com) has an explanation. The short answer? Claremont was lazy and reused the name.