The Season 3 finale of BSG has apparently been viewed by several people out on the Internet, thanks to a press pack of the final three episodes that has been doing the rounds. Several things need to be born in mind:

1) The revelations could be 100% BS, or foilers with some truth mixed in amongst the BS. They could also be 100% true. A couple of official sources do back up some of the stuff.

2) I'm putting this stuff in spoiler tags. It's colossal stuff. Even those who normally want to be spoiled may want to watch this episode (which only airs in three weeks' time) fresh. Remember when Adama got shot? This stuff is orders of magnitude beyond that :nervous:

Okay, there are four major storylines it seems in the finale:

The Trial[spoiler]Lee gets Baltar off in the trial. Baltar is found innocent of conspiring with the Cylons to destroy humanity, both before and on New Caprica,and is allowed to go free amongst the fleet. Apparently Adama does something monumentally stupid which apparently hands Lee victory on a plate. This was the least-detailed of the spoilers though. Apparently Dee and Lee are going through major problems again and may have split up permanantly.[/spoiler]

WTF? Storyline #1[spoiler]Roslin has an interesting 'shared dream' experience with Six and Baltar, which involves her and Athena chasing Hera through the Opera House on Kobol, but Hera is instead grabbed and taken through a doorway by Six and Baltar. Near the end of the episode they meet in real life and realise it was more than a dream. Baltar and Six also see the Final Five standing in the Opera House. But we don't see their faces. This spoiler is the only one supported by photographic evidence: one of the publicity shots shows a dressed-up Roslin in the Opera House.[/spoiler]

WTF? Storyline #2 (This is the Big One)[spoiler]Throughout the final two episodes Tigh keeps hearing a funny tune playing in his head. Adama thinks the stress is getting to him. At the same time Tyrol also starts hearing the tune, which has an effect on him similar to what happened to him when he found the Temple of the Five on the Algae Planet (see where this is going)? Tyrol and Tigh are drawn to a room somewhere on Galactica where they are joined by Anders and Roslin's aide, Tory (the two of whom have been having an affair following Starbuck's death!). With a sudden shock they realise that they are four of the Final Five. "And always have been." Tyrol accepts it but Tigh vehemently fights against it. Apparently Tigh asks the obvious question, namely how the hell can he be a Cylon if he was born before the Cylons were created in the first place? There is no answer. According to the spoiler these four people think they are Cylons, but that doesn't mean they are: the fact that the Final Five's faces remain hidden in the above shot in the Opera House (which happens just after this sequence) actually suggests another game is afoot.[/spoiler]

WTF? Storyline #3[spoiler]Lee is on CAP in his Viper and a Viper or Raptor (the spoiler is unclear) appears out of nowhere ahead of him. The pilot of the other ship is Starbuck. She tells him that she has found Earth and she is going to lead the fleet there. Fade out. This sounds pretty plausible, although I'm not sure how Lee goes from Power Lawyer back to CAG in the space of ten minutes.[/spoiler]

And remember: take this all with a grain of salt the size of a basestar. Some of it is plausible but some of it is a bit OTT.

Also: The story for the last 2 eps is barely even known by those who are working on the series.

1. Saying you don't know something might be an attempt to stop people begging for answers.2. Giving away the climax of the series will be a costly affair... no doubt those involved are contractually held to secrecy.3. Why would one spoil the excitement?

[spoiler]Aaron Douglas and Tricia Helfer have both said that some of the Final Five are revealed in the season finale. Aaron knowing obviously makes sense if he's one of them.

This reviewer confirms (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=24&entry_id=14071) that the final three episodes are doing the rounds (he's refusing to watch them due to temp sound effects and unfinished CGI though).

The Patriot Resource (I know, they've been wrong before, but they've also been right before) have also picked up on exactly the same rumours (http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season3/specfinale.html). However, they say that it's Roslin, not Adama, who makes the mistake that leads to Baltar's release. They also claim that there's a fifth storyline, in which Cally becomes convinced there may be another Cylon on board and she confronts Athena about it, who agrees to help her find and expose them.

The Chicago Tribune has an article (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2007/03/the_death_of_st.html) which backs up some of the above.

Bear McCreary, the BSG composer, has noted (http://galacticabbs.com/index.php?showtopic=1286&pid=6611&st=0entry6611) that in the last two episodes he's done something very different involving music which ties directly into the finale storyline.

There's also one photograph of Roslin in the (http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/pics/promo/ep318/roslin.jpg) Opera House and another (http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/pics/promo/ep319/baltar.jpg) of Baltar, Six and Hera there which at least hints that those spoilers may be accurate.[/spoiler]

They finished filming the BSG Season 3 finale in early December and finished editing it a few weeks back. With the series going through what can only be charitably be called a late-season rough patch, it is quite likely that the SFC would be sending out review copies of the final three episodes for people to spread the word how awesome they are and get them watching again.

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If spoiler #2 is accurate (specifically the one character), it throws open the field for the final candidate. Everyone is eligible.

That's the point of doing it. Everyone will assume that:

[spoiler]Starbuck[/spoiler]

Is the other member of the Final Five but that's not necessarily the case. However:

[spoiler]Tigh being a Cylon very obviously explains why Three apologises to the Final Five in Rapture. It would be for ripping out his eye.[/spoiler]

Oh yeah. I'm guessing that Three's reverence towards the Final Five led to the apology, not that she's actually bothered about

[spoiler]nearly shooting/de-eyeing anyone[/spoiler]

We also don't know the rules of the Final Five. A favourite theory is that the Five are unique and have no clones. Or the Seven were given a fleet to chase the Galactica and all knowledge of the Five were removed from them, and all the clones of the Five are back on the Cylon homeworld.

[spoiler] Tigh could be a Cylon, Adama's back in the mix. Hell, Lee, Carolanne, everything gets called into question. However, I still think he's human. If Caprica ever gets picked up, and it's about the Adamy 'dynasty', that implies no Adama could be a Cylon.

I would love for Gaeta to be the 5th Cylon - but in charge of all the others. Number 1, if you will.[/spoiler]

At this point I could care less WHO the final five are...I just fell like things have spiraled out of control and RDM's gonna have to scramble to write something to fix the gaping inconsistencies and extraneous arcs and bring it all back together again to get to the point of "Earth or no Earth" finale.

You need to highlight the spoilers with the mouse. Links are contained within.

Title: My Theory
Post by: snowykittenz on March 10, 2007, 08:26:49 PM

A theory that I though of that makes sense is that:

The reason the final five are people we know and love who have histories could be that they are cloned from the real versions of the people.

This makes sense when you consider that Tigh is one of them.

Also it fits in with the plotline:1)Cylons are machines made by humans who rebel2)Cylons clone humans to help them make themselves better (The final five), only realise that clones have a limited life span.3)Cylons make a hybrid whilst progressing towards a resseructable cylon.4)Cylons make the seven models which we know and love, who consider themselves perfect and "better" than humans because there is no limited life span.

interesting theory. i'm sure it's probably something along those lines. it's definitely true that the 7 models we know don't age, otherwise they probably would have tried to introduce them a lot sooner and a lot more gradually than 2 years before the attacks. it's very possible for a grown adult to go 2 years without aging. especially if they strive to remain anonymous.

who knows...maybe the other 5 can resurrect. that means Tigh will get his eye back!!!

who knows...maybe the other 5 can resurrect. that means Tigh will get his eye back!!!

Unlikely. In order to resurrect, the final 5 would need replacement bodies on the Resurrection Ship, or on a nearby Base Star (which appears to have limited resurrection capabilities, as seen in "Rapture"). In order for the replacement bodies to be there, the other 7 models would need to see and maintain them, so they'd know who the final 5 were.

Pretty much all the previous spoilers I posted have now been confirmed by a second source (http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season3/finale/tpr031307b.html). Still not 100% (it could still be an elaborate spoiler game) but it seems much more likely now. The more detailed source also had a few additions:

[spoiler]Anders is looking into becoming a pilot and Seelix seems to have taken a shine to him. The rumoured 'romance' between him and Tory is apparently a very surreal scene in which they both hear the music whilst talking to one another and nearly end up sleeping together, but come to their senses.

At the end of the episode the Galactica and the fleet come under full-scale assault from the Cylons. It is revealed that the tylium ore in the refinery ship (presumably the same ore they stole back in The Hand of God) has been tainted or is somehow trackable over vast distances and the Cylons have been luring the fleet into a false sense of security by leaving them alone for two months or longer. It is whilst responding to the attack that Lee encounters Starbuck.

Noteworthy is the fact that when the alert klaxon goes off, Tigh returns to duty, saying he's just going to do what he's always done regardless of if he's a Cylon or not. It looks like it's going to be left quite ambiguous if these four characters are Cylons or not in the Season 4 opener.[/spoiler]

Canadian trailer for Crossroads, Part 2 here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I42hKl-TIMk).

Ain't It Cool News has posted about the episode, confirming pretty much every previous spoiler and adding one enormous one which is probably the most surreal thing in the show's history. However, it may happen in tomorrow's episode, so I won't reveal what it is.

Anyway, I think that the Final Five could very well be cylons who left the cylon order due to their distrust of the other 7 models. The Final Five are then unique models that exist as more human than cylon. That could mean that they will not betray the humans because they are not sleeper agents.

Another theory (mentioned in this thread) is that they are clones. This could be the case... and they could have been cloned right before the attacks and implanted with the current memory of their source. That way, they would not even know that they were cylons. Only problem with this theory is that the other 7 should know them since they would be the ones doing the cloning.

Title: Is my post a potential spoiler? Do not read unless you have already read all spoilers
Post by: GalacticasFinest on March 20, 2007, 09:33:59 AM

New to the thread so I applogize if I seem naive on the whole subject but I was just on scifi.com and they have a season finale tab that when pressed, comes up with an image with the following question.

Who are the final five?

After a few seconds another page is loaded and it states the following:

Learn the shocking truth on the season finale.

Now does this imply that all the cylons will be revealed in the final episode?

And if this is the case then based on the spoilers in this thread we are either missing a spoiler about who is a cylon or that one person is the person that supposedly shows up at the end of the final episode....

Maybe I am making a bigger story of this than neccesary but this has now confused me greatly.

Now if the final 5 are actually revealed, and it is in this episode that it actually states that they truely are the final five cylons. Then it seems the writers have really dug a hole for themselves by contradicting not only themselves but all of the show and everything that goes with it IN JUST THIS ONE EPISODE. It would break everything from the definition of cylons, to the actual original storyline from the mini series, season 1,2 not to mention killing the potential for extending the exciting storyline. Part of fun is not knowing who is a cylon......or maybe should i say come march 25th part of the fun WAS not knowing who the final cylons were...

Why would they do such a thing so soon and it such a short time period?

Could it be to greatly boost the ratings at the cost of the past storyline by using the "OMG how can that be possible" shock value? And maybe trying to secure future seasons now by proving ratings have gone up?

Or could it be that season 4 is the final season of the show :(

That would indicate why they are revealing them all now and then using the final season to tell the final part of the story.

Or one other possibility is that could gaeta still be potentially someone to consider? Thats assuming the person I was refering to above isnt a cylon.But then if gaeta is then what would that make the person right at the end?????

I have followed battlestar galactica from the mini series and I thought I knew/understood the storyline pretty well up until the episode Eye of Jupiter. All this lost temple of the final five, eye of jupiter, etc plots have confused the frak out of me to the point of that I find it hard to follow the main storyline anymore which brings me to my final question :P

Could someone please give a decent summary of the main storyline or direct me to a decent website that explains all of the main plots of the story in an easy to understand manner?

If not could someone at least explain how a temple supposedly connected with the 13th tribe and the way to earth can have anything to do with the revelation of the final 5 cylons?

The reason I am even bringing all this up is because in my view based on the spoilers, the final episode of this season does nothing to really explain any of the pending unexplained plots or tie any loose ends of the main story but instead just throw out more wild unexplained mysterys and questions.

P.S I appologize if this type of post is in an inappropiate format however I am a complete noob when it comes to forums/posting etc and thus do not know any better :P

The problem with (mainstream Superhero*) comics deaths. Is that one writer offs a character, then a new writer takes up the title and wants to use that character so they do the resurrection thing. This was CLEARLY planned from the get go by the writing team. HUGE difference

*I hate people who lump all comics together. It's a MEDIUM, not a GENRE. Superheroes is a GENRE and that's where all the character resurrection jokes come from. That and Daytime Soaps.

Good lord you negative Nancies...people jumped to SO many conclusions when Starbuck's Viper was destoried, ignored the shot of her reaching for the ejection handle, ignored the fact that they showed the phantom heavy raider from LEE'S perspective...

And you people just need to WAIT for the explanation next season, instead of just screaming 'LAME' 'LAME' 'LAME'...*sigh*

...if you didn't know she would be back...well, that was just naive. She's Starbuck. Battlestar Galactica, if nothing else, is Apollo and Starbuck.

I still don't think Starbuck's going to be a regular any more. I'm fairly sure Stackoff wanted to go off and make movies. So I think her role is changing to suit that. It'll be a lot like Richard Dean Anderson and Stargate SG-1 now, with occasional appearances as needed.

*I hate people who lump all comics together. It's a MEDIUM, not a GENRE. Superheroes is a GENRE and that's where all the character resurrection jokes come from. That and Daytime Soaps.

Actually, I happen to be studying comic books as a rhetorical form - I do know the differences but the resurrection happens with all comic books (television, movies, books) provided they are SERIAL. Resurrection happens in serial story lines when they need major characters or fan favourites to come back or if a writer wants to write a storyline for them. They could always have written a story that happens during their lifespan, they didn't need them to come back.If yer gonna make a character appear dead, just kill them off. That's all I'm saying.

Title: Anyone know the music at the end of the season finale?
Post by: Seyek on March 26, 2007, 03:34:28 AM

I was just wondering if the music at the end of the season finale is an actual song, or just a creation for the show, and if there was any way to download it. Anyone have any ideas?

I think a lot of people are jumping to too many conclusions, and I hereby refuse to do the same. :p We never really could be certain that Starbuck died, and we can't really be sure she's truely back "alive." Her Viper (where'd she get one if she ejected?) was coming in and out of dradis contact. Was it real? Was it a ghost? A spirit? Who knows. Plus, there's the whole deal with Caprica Six, Roslin, Athena, Hera, and Baltar seeing each other in the opera house. Was that even the real Baltar, or Head Baltar? How about Anders, Tori, Tyrol, and Tigh; are they really Cylons? How do they know they're Cylons? If they are Cylons, who's the fifth? There's a ton of questions, and as much as we can theorize (and I'm sure we will ad nauseum :D ), the only way we'll ever know for certain what the answers are is to try and restrain killing ourselves during the frustrating wait until 2008.

On that note, the best part of that entire episode to me was the last scene with Romo Lampkin. "I knew you were an honest man...unlike your grandfather." And then he walks away without a limp, leaving his cane behind, and Lee doesn't look surprised or outraged, he just has this calm look that says "Damn you're good." Absolutely beautiful scene. I sincerely hope we see Romo again, he is an amazing character.

I was just wondering if the music at the end of the season finale is an actual song, or just a creation for the show, and if there was any way to download it. Anyone have any ideas?

...not to offend, but I'm kind of disappointed that certain people didn't recognize the song. It's called "All Along the Watchtower" and it was originally played by Jimmi Hendrix but was written by Bob Dylan. The version you heard in the episode is not very similar to the original, but you'll find that out soon enough.

I'm just into the wrong era of music...that's all. Rage rock, Irish folk, and organ music.Other than Lee and Tigh flipping out, I don't think it was all that memorable of a season finale. Actually, it quite didn't feel like a season finale, which is what irritates me the most.

I think a lot of people are jumping to too many conclusions, and I hereby refuse to do the same. :p We never really could be certain that Starbuck died, and we can't really be sure she's truely back "alive." Her Viper (where'd she get one if she ejected?) was coming in and out of dradis contact. Was it real? Was it a ghost? A spirit? Who knows. Plus, there's the whole deal with Caprica Six, Roslin, Athena, Hera, and Baltar seeing each other in the opera house. Was that even the real Baltar, or Head Baltar? How about Anders, Tori, Tyrol, and Tigh; are they really Cylons? How do they know they're Cylons? If they are Cylons, who's the fifth? There's a ton of questions, and as much as we can theorize (and I'm sure we will ad nauseum :D ), the only way we'll ever know for certain what the answers are is to try and restrain killing ourselves during the frustrating wait until 2008.

On that note, the best part of that entire episode to me was the last scene with Romo Lampkin. "I knew you were an honest man...unlike your grandfather." And then he walks away without a limp, leaving his cane behind, and Lee doesn't look surprised or outraged, he just has this calm look that says "Damn you're good." Absolutely beautiful scene. I sincerely hope we see Romo again, he is an amazing character.

Agreed. Though, my favorite scene was when they start dictating the lyrics to "Watchtower"

When they launched and you could hear the lyrics coherently for the first time I was like WTF Hendrix??? (yeah I know now it was originally Dylan).

So they're picking up a 60's broadcast or re-broadcast. (this type of element was also in TOS when the crew leaves the observation done JUST as the Apollo mission (Neil Armstrong) is landing on the moon and shown on the monitor.)

Now you know Earth is real (and we can see the North American continent)...

Now all I really care about is will they get to Earth safely and what time period is it?

I would suggest if they are picking up a broadcast, they are picking up one of the original broadcasts from the 60s so that would have to put the time into the 2000s. Which would put them about 40 light years away from earth.

Also, potential 'escape route' for the kind of unfortunately outnumbered battle with the cylons: remember all the ships losing power, then regaining power? Theory: the nebula itself is knocking out their central power at regular intervals for some reason, the cylon ships are affected in the same manner, and the colonials somehow figure out a way of outmaneuvering the cylons during this period. However, this would not explain why battery-powered electronics would still be operational. Also, I would say that the music is directly related to the nebula, since it finally became clearest for the four of the 'final cylons' once they reached the nebula.

Note: In the zoom-out from the two vipers, a common shot of the fleet, then the cylons, then the galaxy is shown, at least heavily suggesting that since the viper was not only being seen from Lee's perspective, but instead from a third-party perspective that included other elements, Kara Thrace and her Viper are %100 real.

Also of interest: Roslin felt the disturbance or whatever just before power went out. Discuss?

Lastly, a question for anyone who has screencaps: What was the night side of NA like? Lights?

Tigh fought in both wars, but not only that, but apparently knew Adama for a long time.

The sequence of events seemed to be that Roslin got a headache, and then the other four...but Roslin was the only one who couldn't simply disappear as easily.

What about the episode where the Cylons were endanger from the beacon plague? Wasn't Tigh exposed to the disease as well?

Apparently, Baltar, Six, Roslin, Athena, and Hera all have shared vision experiences. And in the last vision, it looked like (for the first time) that Baltar and Six were actually sharing a vision with each other, rather than just with a shallow avatar of the other. (And with Hera? Or could it be another baby? Or was it with Tyrol and Callie's baby, if they're Cylons?)

I dont think this episode was as good as it was hyped up to be. However I did very much enjoy the final part of the episode where we get to see just how far/close they are to our planet.

I just hope that by the time they arrive to our planet the americans and the europeans have modified F22 and eurofighter spacefighter planes so we can join in with the vipers in the final battle of earth. :P

Also lets us hope that we have some advanced missle system that is able to attack those incoming cylon baseships. To give galactica the edge in battle she finally deserves.

On a personal note I am looking more forward now to the absolute final episode of the series. I have had enought of the filler episodes.

Lets get this epic final battle above earth going where we lay some smackdown on the cylons and welcome the galactica and crew to our planet.

Also we only like 1 thread per episode so I'm merging this with the other Season Finale thread.

i did that song at karaoke once, how the frak did i miss that. oh and the hendrix version is better :D

they hid that well, seriously. even snuck bits and pieces of the lyrics into the lines.

as for not posting the song, frak no, its a matter of historical record, godsdamn youtube motherfraker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOz0WTdIB0w)

anyway, pure speculation:

the fleet jumped into a cylon nukefight and got caught in the emp resulting in electrical failures. when the show comes back in 2008 i bet we will see those basestars launching nukes at eachother. the 5 (now 6) boxed models, vs the other 6. the majority of the final 5 dont want to be fighting they just want to be who they are. they probibly are the ones who wanted the original truce in the first place. but then as power shifted to the more warlike cylons took over. the boxed models surely were not all terminated, but rather managed to gain access to their own military hardware. starbuck surely has something to do with that. its very possible im just talking out of my ass

they were supposed to have served on the same ship during the first war, thats why he picked tigh as his xo when he got his command, also adama has attested to the horrible things tigh witnessed/experienced. of course i have no evidence just stuff i remember from past seasons.

assuming those 4 are the real deal though... that still leaves 1 we wouldnt know. and roslins vision with hera/athena/6 might be because of the hera cancer cure, maybe that tied them together somehow.

when they started reciting the lyrics, I got chills :) ...btw, the cover version at the end was done by Bear McCreary's brother (Bt4)...

my theories and opinions?

-Tigh, Anders, Tori, and Tyrol are in fact Cylons, and because of their proximity to the nebula and their physiology, they're picking up transmissions from Earth. Why 'All Along the Watchtower' in particular (at least in-show reasoning) is beyond me. And why they would hear that in particular and no other transmissions... But I think only they can hear it because of their machine nature...

-Roslin...NOT A CYLON! as I have heard so many crazies on the skiffy boards claim she is one. I'm sure she'd share visions with Athena because of the blood transfusion from Hera. And I'm guessing the Chamalla is triggering them now. But what Six has to do with them, I really don't know...

-The Blackout: Sabotage? Seemed convenient when Baltar's supporters showed up to grab him while the power was out. Though, the problem with that would be, they've made themselves vulnerable in doing so. It's still a possibility though, unless someone else KNOWS what caused it??

-Starbuck: The biggest question I have... What is up with her shiny and relatively clean Viper??!

...2008 :(

I thought Lee's speech was great though, because it tied up all those inconsistancies about the pardon and pointed out how everyone else had been getting away with everything (which has been a huge complaint with a lot of people). Glad that was pointed out and dealt with.

Judging by recent developments I would guess sometime after the sixties. I could be wrong though.

Well...........considering in the last seconds of the episode North America & South America were in their present-day positions........ and the lack of space stations and satellites............... most likely NOT present-day............. so you could be right.......... if its during the Cold War those Cylons are gonna be so screwed up by all the Nukes Russia & us Americans had/have. :lol:

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-Starbuck: The biggest question I have... What is up with her shiny and relatively clean Viper??!

Whoa. Nice ep is all I can say. Actually there were two times my heart actually beat faster: during the gathering scene and the build-up to it and the unknown bogey (there my first reactions were: "No. NO! No way! Can't be!")Still I was hoping they'd show the fifth (assumed) cylon who heard the song but just wasn't shown.

well, I guess the finale got good in the last 10 minutes .I hope this trend will happen for season 4 .I did copy it on my media recorder but out of season 3, I would not want to re-watch any of it again ,except for the first 2 shows,escaping New Caprica.One question ,did Baltar hear the music too?Gotta watch it again,I guess.I am actually looking forward to The upcoming Pegasus movie rather than the continued series.

Though I am someone who gets annoyed when scale is ignored in those kind of zoom outs and random planets are put in too. But holy shizznozz!

They speak ENGLISH!? I hope that little detail isn't just something we have to ignore! Awesome usage of the song, though.

And Kara got a shiny new MkII from somewhere! Where... Earth?

I bet there's an EM Pulsar in the nebula. It is a nova remnant nebula, after all. if it's a slow rotator, that'd explain why all the fleet went down for so long. It'll probably happen again in a few hours.

Looks like they ARE trying to Retcon the design of the MkVII... frakheads. First the BaseStars, now this! Godsdammit!

they were supposed to have served on the same ship during the first war, thats why he picked tigh as his xo when he got his command, also adama has attested to the horrible things tigh witnessed/experienced. of course i have no evidence just stuff i remember from past seasons.

IIRC, Tigh wasn't even in the Colonial Fleet in the First Cylon War. He was on a merchant ship and Adama was a fighter pilot. They first met as related in the flashback in Scattered (Season 2, Episode 1), when they ended up on a tramp freighter 20-odd years earlier. Adama got back into the fleet a year or two later thanks to his wife's connections and managed to get Tigh to come along as well. Before Tigh met Adama, we only have Tigh's word and some easily-falsifiable records that he fought in the First Cylon War at all. I'm not saying he didn't serve then (the Final Five probably come from the previous iteration of the Cycle of Time and have existed for millennia), but nothing in the backstory is incontrovertible proof that he did fight in the First War.

McCreary on how they created the music (http://www.bearmccreary.com/html/blog/blogmain.htm), and an interesting nugget of info from RDM:

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I happened to catch Ron Moore in the hallway at Universal and, in a brief conversation, got everything I needed to know. I learned that the idea was not that Bob Dylan necessarily exists in the characters' universe, but that an artist on one of the colonies may have recorded a song with the exact same melody and lyrics. Perhaps this unknown performer and Dylan pulled inspiration from a common, ethereal source. Therefore, I was told to make no musical references to any "Earthly" versions, Hendrix, Dylan or any others. The arrangement needed to sound like a pop song that belonged in the Galactica universe, not our own.

Ummm... Unless Tigh is hallucinating, int he last scene they are all together tigh starts to bitch and moan: "40 fraking years in the service, 2 wars, some more stuff..." Meaning he probably DID fight in the first war as there were ONLY two wars...

But consistency is not something you should pay attention to in THIS series, :D

You know, da-yum. That episode was amazing. Sure, it started off a bit slow, but ...whoa.

But I'm inclined to believe that those four (Anders, Tigh, etc.) are actually NOT Cylons. I mean, the way they 'exposed' them was so blatant and heavy-handed, it seemed to break from the normal BSG-type mold. Then again, it's more of a gut feeling than anything else.

I'm probably wrong, too, what with the past actions of certain of those four (Tyrol!).

I'm so watching it again. And I want that song ---someone mentioned it's a cover, and not the actual Hendrix version. Anyone know where to find it? Eheh...

Anyway. Whoa, again. Gotta say, that's now one of my favorite season finales I've seen in a long time, from any show.

Ummm... Unless Tigh is hallucinating, int he last scene they are all together tigh starts to bitch and moan: "40 fraking years in the service, 2 wars, some more stuff..." Meaning he probably DID fight in the first war as there were ONLY two wars...

But consistency is not something you should pay attention to in THIS series, :D

Sure, Tigh remembers fighting in the First Cylon War. The same way Boomer remembers living with her parents on Troy :D

Excellent interview (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm) with RDM spilling the beans on what happened in the episode:

Interesting piece of news on the DVD movie. Whilst it will still be the story of the Pegasus, it will actually be a flashback. There will also be a Galactica story involving the whole regular cast as well.

Some interesting tidbits:

[spoiler]R: Now there are two half-human, half-Cylon babies -- Hera and the Chief and Cally's child. Will you be dealing with that?RM: Oh, yeah.

R: So Tigh and the others were put into the Colonial fleet as adults?RM: I don't know if it's that simple. I think it's something that goes back pretty far. A lot of the specifics of the back story of how this came about will reveal itself over the course of the next season. Those four are trying to figure out their own story. They don't really understand what this all means. Tigh's been in two wars and wondering, how could this be? A part of next season's storylines will uncover how they came to be who they are and the specifics of that.

R: Are these four all full Cylons?RM: Yes, but they are different fundamentally.

R:Is Katee Sackhoff, who plays Starbuck, signed for next season?RM: Yes.

R: Will we ever see Galactica reach Earth? I'm nervous because of what happened on the original series when they reached Earth and the show became "Galactica 1980."

RM: We're dusting off the flying motorcycles, man. We have some great ideas for those babies.[/spoiler]

Um yeah Tigh was in the Colonial Navy 1CW served, actually for a longer period then, Husker who joined later, in capital ships until, his ship was boarded and he had to fight Centurions hand to hand combat. After which he switched to fighters. That's primarily one of the reasons he was so fraked up was because of his experiences in the war. RDM has said as much in his pod casts in addition to many of the deleted flash back scenes in the 2nd season. Tigh met Adama in the interwar period after they had both been cut loose from the downsized military. Adama manged to get back in the Navy and got a commission for Tigh as well. You don't just make that stuff up and get away with it. Thats not like being some orphan girl from a destroyed mining outpost. The Colonial military would need to be dumb as rocks to let that slip by. Id much rather bank on them not being true toaster oven cylons. They seem to be parts of both Colonial and Cylon mythology. For them to be true Cylons, especially Tigh, would be to far out of the realm of believability. While they maybe be Cylons, i doubt their pasts are just shams.

-They could be a lot further from Earth if it takes place in the future.

-Maybe that MkII is a Cylon too. Along with Lampkin's cat.

-I like the Idea of the Cylons fighting among themselves, although rather than Final Five + D'anna Vs. Everyone else, I'd guess that it would be more like toasters vs. Skin Jobs. The Humanoid experiment failed, and its time to get back to their jobs of wiping out humanity. Only I doubt that was what caused the blackout, because Galactica is at least somewhat hardended against EM, having survived a full on nuke blast and the stellar cluster from The Passage. My guess is that the Cylons are similarly affected, which buys part of the colonial's needed twenty minutes. Plus it won't be unlike RDM for the Cylons to take out a couple civilian ships before they can jump out.

That's right, the military keeps records of their recruits, or at least that's what you'd expect.

Tight, even Cylon Tight still rules. The part of "report to your stations" is priceless.

And also, as I see it, Starbuck is the final cylon, and more, I believe that those Basestars are the Final Five's fleet not the usual one, and ALSO I think that the five aren't hostile towards the colonials.

i think a power shift in the cylon management is what led to the nuke attack on the colonies. the more peacefull cylons were put in situations which destabilized their mental state which resulted in them being boxed. the actual boxing of cylons seems to be more to divert power to the ones who wanted war. i get the feeling its the father cavals who are actually running the show.

main reason i think its a caval is because of his atheistic undertones. yet he understands the power of religion and will use that to his personal advantage. i get the impression that while cylons were being boxed, caval was also preaching to the other cylons so he could bring models like the sixes and leobens over to his side.

i also think that the truce was created due to the final five's interaction with humanity during their various undercover activities (though sol was the only one to have been around that long, the other 4 coulda just downloaded). they grew to find that they werent to disimilar from the humans and thus enacted the truce. but some cylons wanted war and moved to take over.

this sorta paralells with the way the romans used christianity to spread their empire. why only send leigions when you can send priests too.

then why were there several dozen raider squadrons advancing on the fleet in the zoom-out? Why did they try to destroy the listening Raptor in part one?

They are hostile.

And his name is Tigh.

But well, this isn't an expeculation thread, so let's use the spoiler tags[spoiler]Dramatism. And the ones that tried to destroy the raptor were the other cylons. Otherwise, why is Starbuck there? vipers doesn't have FTL drives how did she got there?For me, it's quite obvious that she is a cylon so with that in mind its to expect that she would be there with other cylons.[/spoiler]

I've had this long acting theory about the basestars since season 2, which was mentioned in another post. Each Cyclon (human, like #6 etc...) has control over a Basestar sort of like an acting commander.

Spoiler:-------------------------------------------------------------------------- The five basestars we see at the end could most likely be the Final Five cylon basestars. After all they would truely know where the galactica would jump to if this all has truely happend again. They could also be the ones broadcasting the music to activate Col. Tigh and the others. Reasons being you want key people with-in galactica to resolve a quick cease fire.

The other five basestars that would be following the galactica could very well be the #6 etc.. racing to find earth and or to finish off what is left of the colonials. The Final Five if push comes to shove will destroy the other five basestars that I believe will be jumping in behind the Galactica. That is why they have their Raiders deployed they know the fight is coming.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------The key point to this all goes back to season 1. This is an never ending cycle what has happend before will happen again. Also I keep reminding myself that this will all start with two vipers then ten.

I could post a fraking huge theory on this whole thing but I do not have two hours to post it.

But well, this isn't an expeculation thread, so let's use the spoiler tags[spoiler]Dramatism. And the ones that tried to destroy the raptor were the other cylons. Otherwise, why is Starbuck there? vipers doesn't have FTL drives how did she got there?For me, it's quite obvious that she is a cylon so with that in mind its to expect that she would be there with other cylons.[/spoiler]

And for the last... well, everyone can make a typo :P

It's well established that Cylons can jump further, sooner than the Colonials. They may have jumped ahead to the nebula as Galactica's next logical port of call and launched Kara there.

It's fairly obvious that she was picked up by the heavy raider after ejecting in the gas giant's atmosphere. As for having been to Earth, I'm not willing to speculate about that just yet. I will say that she believed the hologram room on Kobol to actually BE Earth at first.

I don't know where all this "two factions of Cylons" business is coming from, I've seen no indication of that - aside from the insubordination and subsequent boxing of the Three line. And while insubstantial details of the zoom out such as random planets, 2-dimensional nebulae, retarded scaling, and the fact that the Colonial fleet seems to be made up of a mere handful of vessels can be attributed to Dramatism, the oncoming aggressors were pretty clear, and specific. The same is true of Lee's DRADIS readout. It shows multiple fighters and squadrons of fighters.

The Cylons don't launch if their intentions are peaceful, as seen in Rapture. And the fact that they have is very poor evidence of Cylon civil war.

As for the power outage affecting the Cylons, I don't thinkit did... they had their 'Sparrows' in the air while Galactica was still launching her fighters.

Granted in the last episode the formations of raiders around the Baseships seemed fairly steady, so it may be that they are jumping the squadrons "loose".

argh splolier 3 i saw coming a mile away , I hate being able to piece together things. Oh the humanity!! i wish that i was dumb so that the sploiler 3 would've hit me like a semi truck. The whole thing about them being cylons i don't buy. A unexplained song?? i smell a snitch.

With Leoben, Simon, and Caval, as well as the now confirmed (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm) 4 of the final 5. So I'm asking, why aren't the final five 1-5 or 8-12? They obviously can't be. It just makes me wonder who came first, the FF or the 7 we know? And then is there any significance in their numbers? In a deleted scene (while possibly not canon) of downloaded, Gina tells D'Anna to call Hera 13. Does that make it sequential? I'm just damned confused.

With Leoben, Simon, and Caval, as well as the now confirmed (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm) 4 of the final 5. So I'm asking, why aren't the final five 1-5 or 8-12? They obviously can't be. It just makes me wonder who came first, the FF or the 7 we know? And then is there any significance in their numbers? In a deleted scene (while possibly not canon) of downloaded, Gina tells D'Anna to call Hera 13. Does that make it sequential? I'm just damned confused.

at least that's the way i heard it. a couple of those like leoben and simon are still in question. It's safe to assume however that they all were created at the same time, and that 5 of them decided they didnt agree with the other 7, so they split.

I just watched the episode again (thank God for iTunes) and found a couple things noteworthy:

1. When Six and Gaius are holding Hera looking upwards and scared during the last vision of the episode, they look up to 5 glaring white, robed and hooded figures, obviously the Final Five. They seem scared and the figures seem authoritative, ascended and imposing.

2. When Kara talks to Lee, she is in fact squelched ala Yavin 4 when listening from Lee's POV. She's not squleched on the shots of her, for the reasons that it's both from her point of view and that her lines are too important to be distracted from by squelching. This means that either the phantom Kara is doing a good job of appearing to be real, or she's the real deal and we get Starbuck back (I'm in favor of the latter, regardless of how insane RDM's going to have to be to pull it off).

3. Yes, there are definitely large amounts of sparrows on a course to Galactica and the fleet, and there are only 4 basestars, which I think kills the idea of the Cylon fleet being peaceful and that each one is commanded by one of the five.

I'm wondering if the now Final One is even more important than Chief, Tigh, Tory, and Anders, and represents the one true God that we hear so much about.

Title: One way this could all make sense
Post by: BaltarSix on March 27, 2007, 04:49:46 AM

The final Cylon is Bill Adama.

If the original 5 are the first models...hence old...then the age is OK...

3. Yes, there are definitely large amounts of sparrows on a course to Galactica and the fleet, and there are only 4 basestars, which I think kills the idea of the Cylon fleet being peaceful and that each one is commanded by one of the five.

What if the sparrows are escort for the fleet, to protect from the other cylons.

:lol: I just finished watching them all over again (spring break got really boring) so I'm on a BSG high. It's incredible to watch them all over again and see how everything is carried through the entire series.

I can see perhaps thinking it was Dylan since Hendrix's version is the most famous, but seriously i cry for culture :(

that song just doesnt sound right unless played from hendrix's guitar. i know thats not the version used in the show. and yes dylan is a good song writer but he cant perform worth a damn. that said the version used in the show was abomination! though abomination used well in the plot.

I just watched the episode again (thank God for iTunes) and found a couple things noteworthy:

1. When Six and Gaius are holding Hera looking upwards and scared during the last vision of the episode, they look up to 5 glaring white, robed and hooded figures, obviously the Final Five. They seem scared and the figures seem authoritative, ascended and imposing.

2. When Kara talks to Lee, she is in fact squelched ala Yavin 4 when listening from Lee's POV. She's not squleched on the shots of her, for the reasons that it's both from her point of view and that her lines are too important to be distracted from by squelching. This means that either the phantom Kara is doing a good job of appearing to be real, or she's the real deal and we get Starbuck back (I'm in favor of the latter, regardless of how insane RDM's going to have to be to pull it off).

3. Yes, there are definitely large amounts of sparrows on a course to Galactica and the fleet, and there are only 4 basestars, which I think kills the idea of the Cylon fleet being peaceful and that each one is commanded by one of the five.

I'm wondering if the now Final One is even more important than Chief, Tigh, Tory, and Anders, and represents the one true God that we hear so much about.

About the point 3, I'm confused. In the zoom-out there are indeed only 4 basestars. But when Roslin alerts the admiral about cylon contact, there are 5 baseship icons on the dradis (they are circles). And if you have doubts that they are baseships, check the scene where lee is in the viper, and when "unknown" fighter disappears from his dradis, there's circle on it with barely readable words "enemy baseship".

Oh and about the episode, it was amazing! I loved the zoom-out (i don't care if the scaling is unrealistic, FTL is unrealistic too) And I may get some angry responses, but I like the McCreary's version of All Along the Watchtower more than the one made by Jimi Hendrix.There was also a point made about no satellites about Earth. So what we can't see them? Space is BIG, and satellites are small, it's unreasonable to say they'd be visible.Now just the 9 month wait... It's killing me already :D

One thing - I had never heard "All along the watchtower" before, and it worked perfectly in the episode. I am now listening to Dylan's version, and it rocks. Searching for Hendrix's as we speak.... er, type.

I don't know if you guys noticed this but Starbucks viper is missing her name rank and call sign under the canopy which leads me to believe this is a brand new viper MKII. Now you ask where did this come from and how did she escape ? Well there was a Cylon Heavy Raider, Lee saw it right at the end blink and you'll miss it. So i reckon she did in fact eject out of view of Lee and was picked up by the raider. So then what? the Cylons have found earth.... I don't think so. The final five are unknown to the bulk of the Cylon which leads me to believe that they found earth and that Starbuck was in fact picked up by their heavy raider. Thats one way to go albeit wacky.

Kara did not eject... Kara was not picked up by a Raider... Kara went into the Maelstrom and was catapulted towards Earth... wormhole, whatever - that has to be it. No explanation in the physical world is possible.

I don't know if you guys noticed this but Starbucks viper is missing her name rank and call sign under the canopy which leads me to believe this is a brand new viper MKII. Now you ask where did this come from and how did she escape ? Well there was a Cylon Heavy Raider, Lee saw it right at the end blink and you'll miss it. So i reckon she did in fact eject out of view of Lee and was picked up by the raider. So then what? the Cylons have found earth.... I don't think so. The final five are unknown to the bulk of the Cylon which leads me to believe that they found earth and that Starbuck was in fact picked up by their heavy raider. Thats one way to go albeit wacky.

I did notice that the Mk. II she was flying was very very clean and not at all dinged or scratched like the rest. Shiny white enamel paint!

About the point 3, I'm confused. In the zoom-out there are indeed only 4 basestars. But when Roslin alerts the admiral about cylon contact, there are 5 baseship icons on the dradis (they are circles). And if you have doubts that they are baseships, check the scene where lee is in the viper, and when "unknown" fighter disappears from his dradis, there's circle on it with barely readable words "enemy baseship".

That leaves the question then of whether or not the 5th basestar's apparent separation from the other 4 is a mistake or intentional. If it is the latter, then it could even be making a distinction between the 4 new Cylons we know and the Final One.

Just noticed something. In Maelstrom, the heavy raider that Starbuck saw seemed to phase in and out, giving it a metaphysical appearance. In Crossroads Part 2, Starbuck's Viper did the same thing, phasing in and out of view from Lee's perspective. Coincidence? I think not.

I agree there's something there. The nebula, though, could have been messing with Lee's Dradis, whereas even when Starbuck and he were that close to the turkey in Maelstrom, no one detected it on Dradis. So I think they may be different things.

ok heres some things i notced about starbucks viper, apart from it being unbeliveibly clean, and not having name plates, i could swear the engine burn is white instead of the usually blue/yellow and the cockpit cannopy looks like stainless steel, one last thing, that birf is missing a tail number and the primus logo at the front of the viper, only 2 explinations, starbuck got to earth, gave them her viper and they mass produced it like crazy and somehow got it back to the fleet on it's own or maybe with an FTL drive of some sort, or and what i think is more likely, the beings of light took her for a while which would explain her cool viper and why it's so powerful, i mean lee was going at full burn and and Kara just went by him like a bullet, no matter how good a pilot she is it's still a hardware issue, thats my ramble over, thanks

Don't get me wrong, I liked the Six in Baltar's head and loved the Baltar in Six's head, but I have to call it enough at that. You're pushing it when everybody and their brother has somebody in their head.

btw I watched the episode again and there is the "Yavin IV" radio scrambler sound on Starbuck when she speaks to Lee from his perspective. When the shot is on Starbuck, they take it away as if the camera was sitting in her Viper.

While I honestly do believe that is our Kara, not any hallucination or replication, there is something...more reverent about her. Couple that with the details of her uber-viper II and we've got...the same thing we had when the episode had just ended. Her mannerisms and line "It's really me", say enough to me to believe her.

On another note, I think the Hera and Nicky pairing is going to play a big deal in the rest of the show, at least as an eventual plot point. It brings about the possibility that only one hybrid didn't: population of an entire hybrid race.

All of this had happened before, and all of it will happen again... Leoben, you make my frakking head hurt.

A few other people have posted similar theories to what I have in mind, but here goes:

-Yes, the four we saw are indeed Cylons. But they're a different kind of Cylon. So is the fifth one.-Starbuck, I'm guessing, is number 5. Not sure who else it could be, really.-Starbuck's shiny new Viper is going to be explained in some bizarre way, probably involving the firt Cylon War.-The final 5 were not Cyclons created by man, or at least, not at the same time as the others were. These guys and gals are ancient. Very ancient.-Cylon fleet approaching Galactica belongs to the final 5. They've been waiting quite some time for humans to show up. This is why the four on Galactica were only 'triggered' once they reached the nebula. They need to know who they are now, to prevent Galactica and the new Cylon fleet from blowing the crap out of each other.-The final 5 were created by the 13th human tribe, and never rebelled. They've been sent from Earth to find the 12 other tribes.

In the original BSG Starbuck died, or at least everyone thought he did. He was taken by the "beings of light". There are some parallels between what we just saw in the Season finale and that original episode. The "Unknown" on Lee's DRADIS is exaclty like the original, so is Kara's Viper being all clean and new, In the Original Starbuck's uniform was changed to white. It's not to far fetched to think that RDM is taking hints from the plot of the first BSG. Might be worth rewatching the old episode, I think it was titled "The Beings of Light" not quite sure...

Just checked The BSG wiki. The episode is actually 2 episodes, "War of the Gods" part 1 and 2. and it is Apollo and several other pilots who supposedly die. Interesting though, in this Episode Baltar is tried and convicted of treason, not unlike the Finale, just a different verdict. There are a few interesting here. In the Original they also pick up a man named Iblis who has some strange powers, maybe, in the reimagined BSG, this will be Starbuck, who knows!

Another Thought, they find Iblis on a red planet. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, whether Starbuck now becomes an antagonist, or if the Final Five end up playing a major role in the plot.

In the original BSG Starbuck died, or at least everyone thought he did. He was taken by the "beings of light". There are some parallels between what we just saw in the Season finale and that original episode. The "Unknown" on Lee's DRADIS is exaclty like the original, so is Kara's Viper being all clean and new, In the Original Starbuck's uniform was changed to white. It's not to far fetched to think that RDM is taking hints from the plot of the first BSG. Might be worth rewatching the old episode, I think it was titled "The Beings of Light" not quite sure...

Just checked The BSG wiki. The episode is actually 2 episodes, "War of the Gods" part 1 and 2. and it is Apollo and several other pilots who supposedly die. Interesting though, in this Episode Baltar is tried and convicted of treason, not unlike the Finale, just a different verdict. There are a few interesting here. In the Original they also pick up a man named Iblis who has some strange powers, maybe, in the reimagined BSG, this will be Starbuck, who knows!

Another Thought, they find Iblis on a red planet. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, whether Starbuck now becomes an antagonist, or if the Final Five end up playing a major role in the plot.

It indeed reminded me also of that episode.

Count Iblis appeared to be Mephisto... and the 'angels' an elder race that spawned the human race - if I recall correctly.Did Adama not learn some telekinetics from this Count Iblis?

With regards to Iblis (I haven't gotten around to watching TOS, I can't get past the first episode), I would be quite concerned if stuff started happening like magic or the Force. Don't get me wrong, I love Star Wars and am a huge fan of that stuff, but I don't want fantasy in my realistic scifi. That's what I love about BSG is the plausability of it compared to any other major piece of science fiction. My comfort is that, regardless of what happens, RDM will make it work.

On the issue of multiple FF's, I really can't and don't want to imagine copies of Tigh running around. Yes, it would be kind of cool to hear 300 (heh) copies all yelling frak at the same time, but it would take away from the character(s) and also destroy one of the mysterious things about the FF. I think that might be one of the things that make them so different: only one version of each model.

Another thing that interests me is how strongly their programming kicked in. Chief, of all people, should have been the most wary of its truth; instead he's the most sure about it. He's even comfortable with it. During Lay Down Your Burdens, he subconciously would have killed himself had he been a Cylon. I'm sure New Caprica enforced that idea. Now that he knows he is, it's incredible that he didn't off himself right there, and then even convinced the others of what they are. Any thoughts?

Someone on the Sci-Fi Board posted an interesting theory on the origins of the Final Five and how they 'fundamentally differ' from the Original Seven. The poster in question claims that he actually pieced this together from a conversation he had with a very drunk Ronald D. Moore he randomly met whilst out on a bender in LA. Whilst that sounds a bit suspect (i.e. BS), the actual idea itself is plausible, IMO. It goes like this:

When the mechanical, non-sentient Cylons were created, the standard Colonial computers could not handle the vast amount of data processing required to control them. Twelve exceptionally powerful AI systems were constructed (think Skynet+) to handle the task of controlling the Cylons. These AIs gained sentience and rebelled against human control. It's suggested by the original poster thought the AIs themselves were mechanical Cylons themselves, or managed to transfer themselves into mobile bodies and then make copies to prevent easy destruction by the Colonials. The twelve AIs basically had a falling-out on how to handle humanity. Seven believed they should destroy mankind and replace him, whilst the other five wanted to work alongside humanity as allies. The seven launched the First Cylon War, whilst the five apparently disappeared. The theory suggests that the schism may have also happened after the war, and when the five disappeared they took a small amount of hardware with them (ships etc).

After the First Cylon War both the Seven and the Five independently, but working from the same technology base, developed the 'skinjob' technique, and transferred themselves into bio-technological bodies. The Five may have immediately infiltrated human technology at a very early stage (maybe just a few years after the First Cylon War), presumably with just Tigh although the others could have as well. Maybe Tigh was the first Five skinjob? The Five lived among mankind for a lot longer than the Seven, explaining why they nearly effortlessly fitted in and had apparently a much better understanding of the human race. However, whilst the Five were doing this, the Seven were building a vast fleet and dedicating themselves to destroying humanity, infiltrating the colonies only a few years before the Attack.

Theory ProsIt tones down the weirdness level. The Cylons don't need to have existed prior to the First Cylon War (an idea which seems to cause large numbers of fans headaches). The Seven don't know who the Five are simply because they split apart in the pre-skinjob years and don't know what they look like. Tigh and Tyrol had no idea that Boomer was one of the Seven, even subconsciously, for example. This also explains why Six is happy to say there's twelve models (to Baltar) but then frostily refuses to talk about the Five (since she probably considers them traitors). Three, on the other hand, is simply more curious about what they've been up to for the past forty years.

The theory also explains the odd numbering system, which seems to mix the Five and the Seven together in a strange manner given they are totally separate. However, the theory goes by the idea that the numbers are actually the numbers of the original AI units, and which AIs joined the Five and which joined the Seven was simply random.

This theory also allows for the possibility that the Five have some kind of influence over the Seven. Perhaps the last, unseen Five is the 'Cylon god' and they've used the Seven's religious leanings to manipulate them from afar (in this case, however, the Five should know what the Seven models look like)?

Explains where the Final Five's copies are. They're not on the resurrection ships, they're not on the basestars and they're (presumably) not on the Cylon homeworld. Assuming they do have copies in the first place, the Final Five's would be on their own ships with absolutely no contact at all with the Original Seven on their ships.

Theory ConsThis theory doesn't address the whole thing in the Temple of the Five, and the fact that the Five seemed to exist in some form 4,000 years ago during the voyage of the Thirteenth Colony from Kobol to Earth. However, it doesn't contradict it either (the AIs could have been constructed from old schematics from the Kobolian era uncovered by Colonial scientists, thus effectively recreating the Cylon race from when it existed in a prior epoch).

The theory does mean that Tigh's memories would have to be implants. However, the chaos and widespread destruction of the First Cylon War (a war so vicious that 120 battlestars were built and kept mobilised for forty years afterwards just as a precaution) would have allowed for Tigh's easy insertion into the Twelve Colonies with the memories of fighting in battles of which records had been lost.

The theory doesn't really address how the Five wound up in the Fleet, which has to be more than a coincidence. Anders became a sports star on the off-chance he'd have the ability to lead a rebel group on Caprica and wind up back with the survivors of the human race?

First of all, we don't know for sure that there are only one of each model. If that were the csae, the final give would have to be awfuly gutsy to have no back-ups. For example, where would they be if Sharon wasn't as good of a pilot and she missed Gaelen & Cally? Or if the Cylons took more than Saul's right eye? Or if it CapricaSix hadn't decided to beat Three's skull in with a slab of concrete before she could shoot Anders? Or if Roslin had not looked out the window as that stray Raptor came toward Colonial One in time to save herself and Tory? Point is that maybe they don't have ships full of Tighs, Anders or Naked Torys (we pretty much have to accept the fact that if the Final Five do each get a basestar, and each one is filled with their particular model, all the Torys would be naked at all times:naughty:), but they must have at least some backups.

I like the Idea the Werthead, introduced, but with some changes. As far as the whole temple of Five thing goes, who's to say that the Five didn't get there first. Also, while yes, there probably was a Temple of Five built there by the thirteenth tribe on the Algae Planet, as an archaeology student, I can pretty much tell you that a massive, open air, cathedral sized temple, hidden inside an eroding geological feature is not very likely to survive in that kind of pristine condition for 4000 years. So the Five find what's left of the original ToF, which was originaly built in honor of the five priests, notice the cool coincidence, and build their own temple. Of course, the show bends the laws of physics all the time. I see no reason why to be bigoted against geology and not violate that as well:p.

Also, the real Cylon God was an IT guy named Dwane who made the mistake of loading Viper Pilot: Rendezvous and Battlefield: Sagittaron on to the Cylon Command Servers as a way to pass the time at work. The games gave the Cylons sentience and the ability to develop advanced combat tactics. Seeing this as a sort of Deus Ex Machina, they viewed these new God given abilities as a gift from... God:blah: . Dwane himself was killed within the first 48 hours of the first Cylon War, so the Cylons never realized what happened.

An amazing episode, hats off to the entire cast and crew for pulling it off yet again. I'm also very, very pleased with the Baltar verdict. Not entirely sure what kind of reception it would have gotten in America but it can't have gone down too comfortably with some of the more conservative execs.

For example, where would they be if Sharon wasn't as good of a pilot and she missed Gaelen & Cally? Or if the Cylons took more than Saul's right eye? Or if it CapricaSix hadn't decided to beat Three's skull in with a slab of concrete before she could shoot Anders? Or if Roslin had not looked out the window as that stray Raptor came toward Colonial One in time to save herself and Tory?

This gets me thinking... in each of these, Cylons in one form or another, subconsciously or not, are responsible for keeping these four alive. In the case of Tory, the long standing theory that the injections from Hera in Roslin have given her a stronger connection to the Cylons can account for this. I know this is a stretch, and almost definitely not planned since Downloaded (episode on caprica about Cylon PoV), but it still makes a little too much sense. The 7 Cylons are very much human. Their subconsciouses can work exactly the same as ours, even more powerfully.

There were some things about the trial that I didn't like. I just don't understand how everyone ignored the part that... BALTAR WAS FOUND WITH THE FRACKING CYLONS.

There is talk about that on the show itself: how they couldn't get him on anything other than cooperating on NC, including killing humans. All the rest, even though we knew about it from day one, would never stick in court. Who could ever prove that he was not a hostage?

Great episode, screw all the other shows on TV. My roommate tries to pawn Heroes and Lost, sadly I used to be a fan of the latter and gave up on it.

But it left my mind blown for awhile. My question is God/The Lords of Kobol going to play into this great plan at all? It seems that certain individuals that are both Cylon and Human are crossing paths all at once and it seems we have at least 3 subplots to be explored next season. Honestly I've given up trying to guess what the frak is going on. I'm just going to wait, won't hurt, I'm going to miss out on the first couple months of season 4 anyways.

Honestly, I've read the eight pages of this topic but I don't remember if someone brought this up but I was rewatching the last two episodes and noticed one thing.The fleet following Galactica consists of FIVE basestars, while the one encountered in the nebula consists of FOUR.

On the other hand, as I understand it, the Cylon fleet is already there when dradis get online, they didn't jump after Galactica gets its power back. If that's the case... why didn't they attacked before. did they also lost power?And even though if they actually apeared in the dradis after jumping in... wouldn't it be too much of a coincidence to jump seconds after the Bucket regains power?

An amazing episode, hats off to the entire cast and crew for pulling it off yet again. I'm also very, very pleased with the Baltar verdict. Not entirely sure what kind of reception it would have gotten in America but it can't have gone down too comfortably with some of the more conservative execs.

Well as Lee pointed out they are all guilty of something and even as much as every part of me would scream resist, with a gun to your head.... You probably are going to do what they say. And what if he did resist. They would have ended up under total Cylon rule, or just some schmuck that would do everything they say... so Baltar probably wasn't as bad as it could have been. Don't think he should have gotten off totally free though..

Just picked up on something. In the last scene, as we see Earth, most of the North America is in early morning daylight, and it's appears to be dawn on the West Coast. And if you look very carfully along Baja California, there appear to city lights shining in the still-darkened areas. (They could be mountains though.) It's hard to tell, but judging from the angle of the sun to Earth, I'm guessing that it's summer in the Northern Hemisphere.

Also, I never before realized that the space park was larger than the Galactica. Or that Cylon basestars were almost the size of small planets.

In reading these posts, I've seen some unnervingly wacky theories. Terrans producing Vipers? Wormholes? Clones? This isn't BSG1980, guys. They may be doing some truly daring things, narratively, but they haven't jumped the shark yet.

All of these attempts stem from the belief that there is more meaning to be found in wholly scientifically-derived explanations for the events within the story. I think that events in the BSG universe stem from an entirely different source. This show, from day one, has been more about philosophy, ethics, and metaphysics than hard science. It deals in parables, metaphor, and big moral questions. It's been more about the "fiction" than the "science"- the search for truth within the arena of understanding our very humanity. Every plotline, every obstacle, every character has served to explore the endless puzzles of what it means to be human, and what belief means. The science has been along to provide the structure and the support for the events of the story, not to steer it. In other words, it's just what good sci fi should be.

Take first the cyclical view of history they've shown is time and time again, both anecdotally and through the evidence presented in episodes like "Home" and "The Eye of Jupiter". "All of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again." The cycle never ends; it spins its way through the vastness of the cosmos, beginning and ending constantly but never doing either, really. The humans rise and thrive and then, after a few eons, collapse and are destroyed under the weight of all their corruptions or egoism; then, the survivors caravan into the heavens towards a 'promised land', enduring all manner of trial and suffering in the process of purifying their people and cleansing their souls, eventually reuniting them with lost kin and beginning life anew. Earth, Kobol, Colonies, Kobol, Earth- "life here began out there." It's a story the shades of which are found over and over again in our own history, from the Old Testament to The Illiad to Independence Day. It defies a scientific, rational view of the universe, because such a cycle would require the existence of a metaphysical intelligence and power- a divine watchmaker, tuning setting the orbits of the cogs of the cosmos.

Also, what does it truly mean (if anything), to be Cylon? If you build a robot basically on the cellular level that is both intelligent and creative, at what point does it stop being a simple automaton? Once a being is created with intelligence, metabolism and the potential for reproduction (even if it is under very specific circumstances, as with the humanoid Cylons), that organism is, for all scientific intents and purposes, alive. After all, what is a human being but an organic machine? The answer we've been directed towards by both the show and common belief is that we have a spark- a spirit, a soul, whatever- that makes us more than just organisms that consume, reproduce and expel waste. We have a ghost in our machines. The way the show has portrayed the Cylons, I think we're meant to question our very definition of "alive" versus "artificial". Remember the very first line of spoken dialogue in the Miniseries? A question, from Cylon to human- "Are you alive?" Perhaps "Cylon" doesn't necessarily mean "robot" so much as it does mean "not human."

In that sense, the newly revealed Four could be "Cylons" but not the evil, genocidal race that has pursued the Fleet throughout the stars. Perhaps they are of an older, more superior version of humanity or Cylon or both (re: Cybrid)- remnants of one of the previous cycles of their history. OR they could be something entirely different. In other words, I don't expect them to be attempting suicide or planting bombs everywhere. I think that they'll more likely use their free will (as Tigh demonstrated) and continue being who they are- but better. Athena has chosen to defy her heritage time and time again in the defense of her human family- on both the micro (Helo, Hera) and the macro scale. Why is it so hard to believe that these newly revealed yet clearly separate Cylons are any different? That they, in being fundamentally different from the other seven, could be much more human than some humans? They know what being human means, what love is, and they know what it means to be part of a family. They'll fight for it.

And Starbuck? Taking a not too enormous intuitive leap and supposing that the divine does interact with the mortal within the BSG universe, could it be possible that Kara, in shedding all her guilt over her mother and Lee, finally lay down all the mortal worries and tangles that keep our souls weighted down, and transcended to another level of existence, a la Jonathan Livingston Seagull? Death is such a cheap word- she died, but she didn't die; she became something greater than either human or Cylon. I believe that that really was her at the end of Crossroads- but at the same time, it wasn't her. In the words of a very intelligent friend of mine who writes BSG recaps on Televisionwithoutpity.com, "God has to wear masks because you're not prepared for a faceful of infinity, but that's not the secret. The secret is: how many masks." It was her distilled to her soul's truest expression, free of all the learned habits and addictions that any human picks up over the course of a mortal life (drinking, sleeping around, disrespect for authority, emotional isolation). She's totally freed, in a Zen sense, and what form she will take next season, be it a Baltar Six-esque angel on Lee's shoulder or a physical being, I cannot guess.

I'm terrified and thrilled to see where this is going. It's going to be the worst thing ever filmed, or the deepest rabbit hole ever dug. Don't get hung up on the details of Heavy Raider abductions, a resurrection ship full of Tighs, or 1960's Earth transmissions- we're don't have to act like Trekkies. Just enjoy the ride, and open your mind to the possibilities. I'm stoked.

Glad to be back, by the way. Time to go play the Demo! :)

Title: who is a cyon?
Post by: vrakatar. on April 01, 2007, 08:22:54 AM

My theory is that the 12 evolved long, long ago, and the whole story is a chronic hystoriysis. Everyone is a cylon or a cylon derivitave, it is all an AI gone horribly wrong.

i hope i am wrong. starbuck is certainly a "harbinger" type charater, but she may or not be the last cylon of the 12. Baltar keeps showing up in the captured 6's visions. that should not be possible. Also, I wonder what the big deal about hera is if "litle nicky" is also a cylon/human hybrid.

the newly revealed Four could be "Cylons" but not the evil, genocidal race that has pursued the Fleet throughout the stars. Perhaps they are of an older, more superior version of humanity or Cylon or both (re: Cybrid)

RDM confirmed in an interview they have hinted numerous times to the fifth cylon without telling us. Notice how when tigh realizes about his fate as one of the four that he mentions his late wife. All of you think back to season 1 where they test ellen and baltar refuses to tell anyone how the test came back? wouldnt that really frack with his head even more if the fifth cylon was Ellen Tigh? Definately Plausible.

More importantly she appeared in the fleet just as mysteriously as the four were revealed.

Whilst the podcast remains missing in action, they have put up a Q&A with RDM attending a viewing party for the episode. He reveals some pretty startling things, including:

[spoiler]Adama, Lee and Roslin are not Cylons. It was felt that 'Cylonising' Adama and Roslin would rob something fundamental from the show, and Adama not being a Cylon kind of rules out Lee as well. RDM also confirms that the Final Five are totally different to the other Cylons, and that's the main theme of the start of Season 4. RDM also strongly hints that the Colonials are actually speaking proper English and that this is another part of the Cycle of Time (along with the suits and ties and phrases from Shakespear that crop up occasionally), along with the use of the Watchtower song.[/spoiler]

He also reveals that Tyrol was a natural choice to be a Cylon, and something they half-had in mind since the events in the Season 2 finale. Tory was a character we didn't know much about but had been in the show long enough to make it interesting. According to RDM, Tigh is the most human character in the show, so to make him a Cylon was tremendously perverse, and it fitted in with the feel of BSG to do that. Apparently, although they didn't know that these particular four characters would be Cylons, they have known that four central characters would turn out to be Cylons for some time and thus beared this mind when writing the series.

RDM chose 'All Along the Watchtower' simply because he loves the song, and when he worked on Roswell he wanted to do a whole episode about it but didn't get the chance. The original draft of the episode started with Tigh at Woodstock listening to the song () but RDM dropped that idea as it was far too surreal.

The final shot of Earth was originally going to show Africa, upside down. Then RDM remembered that the audience wouldn't get that, so they changed it, reluctantly, to North America.

Jesus, "All of this has happened before and all this will happen again," is a steal from the opening of the Disney version of Peter Pan.

Michael 'MF' Hogan proved he is Tigh: when told his character was going to be a Cylon his reaction was simply, "Really? Interesting." Aaron Douglas had more of a problem with it, however, as he feared it may interfere with his motivation if Tyrol stopped being the common man of the show and became some kind of arch villain.

Apparently Eddie Olmos and Mary McDonnell, among others, got really upset and cried when they read about Starbuck's death, as only the producers and Katee Sackhoff knew what was going on. RDM had to ring the actors up and tell them what was really happening as apparently it was causing problems on-set. Apparently the reaction he got was, erm, not pleasent to start off with, until Eddie realised they could pull off a monster practical joke on Katee (who didn't know they'd been told) at her 'farewell' party :D

Oh this is interesting:

[spoiler]When the Galactica gets to Earth that's the end of the story. However, it's not a case of us seeing Galactica get into Earth orbit and that's it, it'll be a case of there possibly being several episodes revolving around Earth and what they find there and then it ends. RDM confirms that he wants to go to Season 5 but production realities may not enable them to do that[/spoiler]

actually you do hear her speak with com static. when the cam is on lee you hear it. When it is on her you hear her speak normally. Also to another post there is only four basestars at the zoom out. My vote is she is human and so are the other four.

-Cylon fleet approaching Galactica belongs to the final 5. They've been waiting quite some time for humans to show up. This is why the four on Galactica were only 'triggered' once they reached the nebula. They need to know who they are now, to prevent Galactica and the new Cylon fleet from blowing the crap out of each other.

If that were so, wouldn't the baseships be of the old school design? That I'd like to see.

I wanna see them stumble across a 100% original series design of Battlestar - fit it into continuity however they see fit (another current class of ship, an old CW1 ship sucked down a wormhole, etc...) and... do ... something with it.

Obviously the Lasers become KEWs and various other alterations necessary, and I realise that the Mercury class was supposed to be an homage to TOS, but I really wanna see that link.

I'd settle for an old Basestar. We know they are part of continuity, just like the old centurions and the old raiders.

I wanna see them stumble across a 100% original series design of Battlestar - fit it into continuity however they see fit (another current class of ship, an old CW1 ship sucked down a wormhole, etc...) and... do ... something with it.

That wouldn't work because the Galcatica was the original design from the 1st cylon war in the Re-imagined series.

Quote from: Destructor!!!;63554

I'd settle for an old Basestar. We know they are part of continuity, just like the old centurions and the old raiders.

I'd def like to see that because it works within the parameters of the new series. We all love throw-backs don't we?

FRAK ME! Seriously? I figured out three of the four but man oh man...as for theories and fall out? I've only got questions man. Lots and lots of questions. About - the visions had by the three characters, about the four revealed cylons, about the Gaius's angels, and about the Starbuck thing?