Rivean wrote:ETA: There's also a long rant in there by someguy about how much I suck, but that's not news to anyone so we're letting that one slip by uncontested.

The game is ruined. Other players are not spending the time to thoughtfully respond to every truthful comment that I make and instead doing something that they conceivably see as more productive. It's clear to me that the direction of this player base lacks a rudder. I can provide that rudder by constantly nitpicking every decision made without actually making any decisions through which I may face criticism at the hands of staff or players.

Okay, so, this conversation pretty much needs to stop. None of this is constructive, none if it is doing anything besides piss people off.

I understand that things are frustrating, and that everything is basically going in circles, but constantly round-robin'ing comments about game design and other players isn't accomplishing anything at all.

All any of us want to do is make this iteration of SOI the best it can be, but very few people are willing to vocally compromise on the issues at hand, and the conversations end up just spiraling into aggression. Or at least perceived aggression, even if that's not what is intended.

I 100% think that locking threads that aren't being constructive is better than leaving those threads open, even if it comes off as overly strict. This isn't about censorship or that Staff isn't listening to anyone. Threads like that are absolutely useless to both Staff and other players.

tl;dr If you have to air grievances, please do it in private, or at least try to compromise.

ETA: An example of constructive conversation, because I think we need to work on actually like putting a post somewhere about it because it never works.

This is NOT constructive conversation:

Player A: This is an opinion I have on the game. Here are the reasons I like this thing. Here are the reasons I think this current thing should be changed to more reflect this other thing that I like.

Player B: I do not like this thing that you propose. I like the current thing and it should not be changed.

Player A: I have already listed the reasons why I think the current thing should be changed to the thing I like. Here, let me restate them again in a different way. Let me add this other reason as well.

Etc.

This IS an example of constructive conversation:

Player A: This is an opinion I have on the game. Here are the reasons I like this thing. Here are the reasons I think this current thing should be changed to more reflect this other thing that I like.

Player B: I do not agree with this thing that you propose. I like the current thing the way it is, and here are the reasons why.

Player A: I'm not sure why you think this thing is so great the way it is, could you explain why more?

OR

Player A: I can see why you like this thing the way it is, however, I'm not satisfied for reason X, Y, and Z. Let's figure out a way to handle this situation so that we can both leave satisfied.

Sabrelon wrote:ETA: An example of constructive conversation, because I think we need to work on actually like putting a post somewhere about it because it never works.

This is NOT constructive conversation:

Player A: This is an opinion I have on the game. Here are the reasons I like this thing. Here are the reasons I think this current thing should be changed to more reflect this other thing that I like.

Player B: I do not like this thing that you propose. I like the current thing and it should not be changed.

Player A: I have already listed the reasons why I think the current thing should be changed to the thing I like. Here, let me restate them again in a different way. Let me add this other reason as well.

I suspect I find myself in the position of Player A in this example more often than I'd like - when the person I'm speaking with does not address points I've raised, I feel as if I haven't expressed them clearly enough and try again. How would you suggest Player A react in such a scenario?

Honestly, this cropped up for the most part because someone you're involved in had a post locked to end a discussion that didn't need to happen because the answer was already given.

Since then it's devolved into yet another 'This isn't what I want and this is what I feel' splatter art montage of posts that don't do anything but give opinions and intangible feelings/suppositions about things not even important.

It's pretty much a regular happenstance with these 'farewell I'm leaving, -and by the way this is what sucks.-' posts that people make to garner attention. If you want to leave, say good bye like many others have before you, with a simple 'I'm stepping away for personal reasons' and get on with a more productive use of time than spending a half an hour perusing responses and then replying in attempted intelligent manner. This is dragging on and I cringe every time I see a new page added to the thread. Hell, if I were a moderator again I'd have locked this thread after you said your peace. Because I know where threads like this lead and in the end it's doing nothing but making you look like a whiny ingrate who's trying to take their G.I Joes and go home while leaving a bad taste in everyone else's mouth.

Oblivion wrote:Hell, if I were a moderator again I'd have locked this thread after you said your peace. Because I know where threads like this lead and in the end it's doing nothing but making you look like a whiny ingrate who's trying to take their G.I Joes and go home while leaving a bad taste in everyone else's mouth.

So essentially, your idea of moderation is that it is perfectly acceptable to be as personally offensive as one may wish to be, but it is conversely unacceptable for one to politely raise concerns and voice criticisms?

Well done, and thanks for putting it into perspective. Either way, I'm done here.

Sabrelon wrote:ETA: An example of constructive conversation, because I think we need to work on actually like putting a post somewhere about it because it never works.

This is NOT constructive conversation:

Player A: This is an opinion I have on the game. Here are the reasons I like this thing. Here are the reasons I think this current thing should be changed to more reflect this other thing that I like.

Player B: I do not like this thing that you propose. I like the current thing and it should not be changed.

Player A: I have already listed the reasons why I think the current thing should be changed to the thing I like. Here, let me restate them again in a different way. Let me add this other reason as well.

I suspect I find myself in the position of Player A in this example more often than I'd like - when the person I'm speaking with does not address points I've raised, I feel as if I haven't expressed them clearly enough and try again. How would you suggest Player A react in such a scenario?

Honestly - and while it's probably the most frustrating thing to have to do - the only thing you can do is ask politely for what they think is best, and try and find a way to compromise with them.

This part sucks on Staff's side, I'm certain, because if they aren't willing to compromise, that's when Staff has to chime in and either moderate, or make a decision.

There's a degree of humility that has to be had in this instance if one's opinion on a change is disagreed with. If nothing ends up getting changed, then your other options are:

Quit (don't do that one, that one sucks and no one walks away happy)

Try and find a way to enjoy it (which is super hard, depending on the issue)

Or wait, and see what changes are made in the future.

If thing X isn't getting changed or simply really, really sucks, I'm 100% positive you're not the only one who thinks so. If that's the case, as long as everyone doesn't start losing it over it, chances are it's going to get changed.

Honestly, Rivean, I don't think this is really on you in particular. I don't think it's really on anyone in particular. Assigning blame just makes everything worse. In all reality, the points that people are trying to get across here are getting jumbled up, and at this point it seems that no one is actually talking about anything substantial. It's just concepts and grievances.

I'll say this one more time, and bold it for emphasis: The best way to get something changed IG is not through starting a forum post. It is PMing Staff and discussing it with them directly. Don't just send it to one staff member, send it to multiple, or all of them. If the issue is legitimate, someone will probably agree with you.

And most importantly, if the issue is being worked on or the point you raise won't work with the direction, staff will be able to tell you Why. Endless, looping speculation and discussing with other forum members is directly antithetical to easily getting a change made.