Tuesday, December 04, 2007

Thor vs Superman - who ya got?

I have a feeling that Thor could pretty much kick Superman’s ass.

Hear me out.

I will grant that Superman is stronger, faster, and more impervious to damage than Thor, to say nothing of his heat vision and minty fresh breath. But Thor has centuries of battle experience, a proverbial bag of weather and dimensional tricks, and a big fucking stone hammer. Plus, let’s face it – Thor is cooler.

I have nothing against Superman. I’m an American – I love Superman! If you don’t like Superman you are probably an al Qaeda operative or something. But come on: Thor. Thor, man! Thor is just cool as hell.

I’ve extolled the virtues of Marvel’s God o’ Thunder in my post “Thor: Smack Talker” which I recommend to anyone unfamiliar with the character or not prepared to acknowledge Thor’s supremacy. Go read it, I’ll wait.

Back? Good. Now tell me that Thor isn’t The Shit.I can accept that the rather juvenile “THOR RULEZ SUPERMAN SUXXIT” argument isn’t really valid. That’s like saying a Star Destroyer could defeat the Next Generation Enterprise because it looks cooler. While that may be true, one has to be able to back up one’s statement with some sort of credible nerdy argument. For instance, a Star Destroyer would totally crush the Enterprise-D because it has all those TIE fighters and a million six laser cannon – it would just swarm over the Enterprise which can fire like, one phaser shot every five minutes or so and would be too preoccupied with trying to hail the Star Destroyer and make friends to put up much of a fight.

OK, let’s break down the argument for and against Thor kicking Superman’s ass:

Superman is stronger – No argument here, but he can’t be that much stronger. Pre-Crisis Superman could shift planetary orbits and all kinds of crazy shit, but once John Byrne relaunched him in Man of Steel, he’s considerably less powerful. Still, Superman beats Thor in arm wrestling. ADVANTAGE: SUPERMAN

Superman is faster – Since DC periodically makes Superman race The Flash and he can do tricks like catch bullets, I’ll give Superman the advantage here. However, DC writers routinely overlook his super speed so I don’t see why I shouldn’t as well. DRAW

Superman has heat vision, icy breath – Superman routinely forgets that he has these powers and would fail to use them effectively in a fight against Thor. Superman should write all his powers down on his forearm with permanent ink so he doesn’t forget. ADVANTAGE: THOR

Superman can fly – So can Thor! Ah, but Superman can fly on his own, whereas Thor flies by hurling his enchanted hammer Mjolnir through the air and holding on for dear life. Superman has to be faster and more maneuverable in mid-air than Thor. ADVANTAGE: SUPERMAN

Thor has more combat experience – First of all, he’s a Norse god. Vikings think he’s bad ass – that’s gotta count for something. Second, Thor has been alive for centuries, if not millennia. I’m sure he’s got Hammer Kata down to an art by now. Superman is in his mid-thirties and was raised in a quiet Kansas town. ADVANTAGE: THOR

Thor can control weather and shit – While I’m guessing that it would take more than a little gust of wind to blow Superman over, I’ll bet a bolt of Asgardian lightning would stagger him a little. Still, that wouldn’t make much of a difference in a fight. DRAW

Thor has a weapon – In a bar fight, who would you choose: Huge Dude or Slightly Less Huge Dude with a Hammer? I rest my case. Superman’s showing up empty handed to a mallet fight. ADVANTAGE: THOR

Thor is magic – Here’s the big kicker. Thor, but more specifically Thor’s hammer, is magical. Superman is vulnerable to three things: kryptonite, magic, and the cheese steak sandwiches they serve in the lobby deli of the Daily Planet. He can’t resist those things. Anyway, not only does Thor have a big frickin’ hammer, but it’s 100% Uru Magic, and it can shoot energy blasts. Forget about it. ADVANTAGE: THOR

As you can see, Thor edges out Superman in a combat situation. There are some mitigating factors – Has Thor been drinking? Would innocents be in danger from the fight? Has Superman had more than one cheese steak sandwich? But more often than not, the God of Thunder doth reign supreme over the Man of Tomorrow.

You make a fine argument, but let me blow your mind for a moment. What happens when Superman just TAKES THOR'S HAMMER AWAY FROM HIM? I know what you're thinking, Thor is too combat-savvy for that, but honestly, it's not like anyone has ever done it before. He doesn't even use that arm-strap uness he's flying. While Thor is blasting Superman with magic lighting, like Shazam did in Kingdom Come, Superman grabs the hammer. Thor isn't worried because only those with the purest and most noble of hearts can actually lift the . . . HOLY SHIT!! THRAKABRAKABADOOOOOOM!!!!

If they were fighting on Asgard, I think Thor would have access to extra juice and could beat Superman, but on Earth, Thor has all of the iconic power of the sky, while Superman has all the iconic power of the sun. The other good thing about my setup is that Supergirl, or Superdog, or the Kandorian Super-Replacement Squad or any other Kryptonian couldn't lift the hammer, so Thor could still kick their asses easily.

UFF DA!!!!This is the kind of well reasoned and credible critique I come to Dave Campbell for.Of course Thor would destroy Superman. Thor drinks oceans in a gulp, wrestles Old Age herself, lifts planet encircling serpents, keeps hordes of world destroying ice giants and fire demons at bay, all while periodicly whuppin up cosmic baddies.Superman can't even keep Jimmie Olsen from stapling Kryptonite to himself during a normal day at the Daily Planet. Thor fights Surter and Ymir, primordial and elemental beings of beings of such evil malice that they seek to destroy all existence.Superman fights the Toymaker.Thor wins.Just like the Star Destroyer.

DC: "Pre-Crisis Superman could shift planetary orbits and all kinds of crazy shit, but once John Byrne relaunched him in Man of Steel, he’s considerably less powerful."

For the record, your honor, Byrne's relaunch should never be cited as an authoritative transformation of Supes*. Here's what JB says in byrnerobotics.com:

"Can you talk a little about why you left Superman and the circumstances under which that happened?

JB: DC hired me to revamp Superman, and then immediately chickened out. They backed off at the first whiff of fan disapproval, which came months before anyone had actually seen the work. During the whole two years I was on the project, although nothing happened that was not approved by DC editorial, there was no conscious support. They even continued to license the "previous" Superman. At one point, Dick Giordano said "You have to realize there are now two Supermen -- the one you do and the one we license." Seemed counter-productive, to say the least, since far more people saw the licensed material. After two years of this nonsense, I was just worn down. The fun was gone."

I move that Byrne's Superman should only be cited alongside later and alternate versions of Superman.

* Byrne hates superhero nicknames: "...when I hear "Supes" and "Bats" and "Mags" and "Wondy" and all the rest, I cannot help but think that the speaker is surrendering, if only just a little, to the contemptuous attitude civilians have toward these characters. By calling Batman "Bats" the speaker is signaling to the listener that s/he does not really take these characters and stories seriously, so should not be viewed as one of those geeky fanboys or girls."

In the most recent JLA/Avengers cross-over, Superman did beat Thor, but barely. Also, Thor had to let him use the hammer. Superman is vunerable to magic lightnng (a la Captain Marvel), but I imagine Thor would chuck the hammer at Supes; Supes would get knocked back, and fly back at Thor at super speed, and slap him until he was crying for his Asgardian mommy.

I don't know that Thor's millenia old. In our viking age, he was a little boy . . . who cried like a bitch and ran back to Odin when some vikings killed a woman who was angry that Thor couldn't resurrect her baby.

Superman's no slouch when it comes to fighting, either. He's had tons of fight training that he's forgotten, and Thor rarely does anything more complicated than throwing or swinging his hammer (he's regularly astonished whenever anyone grabs his hammer on the ride back).

Pfft. It takes a Star Destroyer about thirty minutes to plot a jump to hyperspace, and that's with a huge team of British navigators figuring everything out. Meanwhile, fifteen year-old Wesley Crusher can pilot the Enterprise at Warp Nine with no problems. When the Imperials see the Picard Maneuver, they'll shit themselves and surrender.

And TIE fighters would just splatter against Enterprise's superior shields, which block solid matter(unlike the shields the Imperials use, which allow cargo ships to actually land on the hull).

On topic, I'd be happy if a Thor/Superman fight went either way, as there's a case for both winning half the time. That said, Thor is on the short list of characters I don't mind seeing Superman lose to(guys like Darkseid and Orion, you know, gods).

"Thor drinks oceans in a gulp, wrestles Old Age herself, lifts planet encircling serpents, keeps hordes of world destroying ice giants and fire demons at bay, all while periodicly whuppin up cosmic baddies."

Yeah, but the Thor who drinks the ocean and wrestles Old Age does so because he is such an incredible dumbass. I mean he thought a snake the size of a planet was a fucking cat for god's sake! Superman outsmarts Mr. Mxyzptlk every 90 days. He could have the old-school Viking Thor tying himself into knots. It'd be like "Telegram for Mr. Mongo!" for weeks on end. You start feeling sorry for Thor after a while.

To start with, do not disrespect Kansas. Farm boys can be tough. Big 12 football is pretty much all the validation you need on that subject. Plus, it isn't like the Norse were famous for their combat strategies. That is a draw at best.

Secondly, Thor is not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer. Superman isn't a genius, but he can out-wit Thor.

Thirdly, if you are counting Thor's weapon, then what about Superman's dog? Or his robot duplicates? Or his Phantom Zone projector? My guess is that the God of Thunder might be 'kneeling before Zod' in that Kryptonian prison.

Wait a second, you can't start bringing Phantom Zone projectors and Krypto into the mix. Those are incidental to Superman as a character - Thor's hammer is always with him, its an accepted part of the character. So I'm going to side with Dave on this one - Thor for the win.

In the second issue of JLA/Avengers a fight broke out between Superman and Thor. In the end Thor lost but it took a heavy toll on Superman. When the inevitable team-up happened, Thor lent Mjolnir to Superman for the final battle while Cap gave him his shield.

Hmm.I disagree. I give it to Supes 10 out of 10 fights. Regarding the "Combat experience" thing especially. I'd say, "Who has had more battles in printed comics history?" Thor might come in at 1/100th the battles/appearances that Supes has had, methinks.

I agree with tim c in that a lot of Thor's advantage is NOT actually Thor but his hammer. Funny thing, Thor would hardly expect anyone to be able to take away his hammer in the marvel universe (because EVERYONE IS A JERK in marvel).

I do think Thor can hold out vs Supes just by the fact that Thor has muscles laced with magic.

I personally never liked Thor too much until more recently--too He-man-y for my generation. Even if I don't want to see it, there's the fur underwear over his 6 metal boob plates.

Virtually every major superhero, with the possible exception of Captain Marvel, is cooler than Superman. That's why I like him. He's the guy who doesn't care about his image, and has the super-mojo to back it up.

The Phantom Zone Projector wouldn't work anyway. Thor could just open a dimensional gateway out with Mjolnir. In fact, he could probably put Superman in a half-nelson to avoid his heat vision and freeze breath, take them both to the PZ and then just leave Superman there.

2) I don't think Superman should qualify for being able to lift Mjolnir.

3) To whomever thinks Thor isn't that smart - he holds an MD as Donald Blake and has been regularly seen to possess above-average abilities as a surgeon, as both Blake and Thor. (I always like it when they put in little things like Thor delivering First Aid to someone after a fight.) So, no mental slouch.

Totally with you on this one, Dave. Power levels vary from writer to writer, but the key is that Thor is magically-powered. He's a god, for Odin's sake! Superman is vulnerable to magic. I'm not saying Big Blue would go down easy, but Thor has a definite advantage which would come through in the long haul.

As for the JLA/Avengers thing... I thought Busiek had it all wrong. It's one of the few one-on-one comic battles that immediately jumped out at me as so, so wrong. They each get in one good hit, and then Thor falls down. Superman randomly references Spinal Tap in a not-so-super gloat, and it's all over. What in fragnation?

The only excuse for that is that it was part of one of the major themes of the book - DC heroes are powerful and larger than life while Marvel heroes are flawed. Which is, in the most general terms, true. So in a contest between the two most visibly powerful heroes, DC beats Marvel. I can understand that.

But when you have to completely twist/disregard the facts in order to make the scene fit your theme, that's just sloppy writing. I'm a fan of a lot of Busiek's work, but he seriously dropped the ball on that one.

Goes to show you what's become of comic book art. For most of Superman's history, he's been slightly beefier than a blocking tight end, while Thor from the first has always been drawn with a torso like a log-splitting wedge (and with his knees ever always 3 foot apart). He's supposed to be huskier than Superman, who's supposed to be stronger than he looks.

Thor's the Bigger Guy. With a Hammer. And a Tall Boy of Mead hooked to his Belt of Strength, Asgard's Cousin Eddie. Damn right he'd make Superman sweat, yellow sun be damned.

I'd be happy with either Thor or Superman winning, but as a side note, don't gods get asshatted by mortals all the time? The thing is that they just get all bitchy about it afterwards and turn people into spiders or Medusas or have their livers eaten out by birds.

1) Is Superman able to lift Mjolnir-- which includes the possibility of catching it and holding it when it's thrown, or flying in at superspeed and taking it away? [I say: yes he can.]

2) Do Thor's fists count as magic for purposes of Superman's vulnerability, or just the hammer and the lightning? [I say nay to the fists. Comics have gone both ways but I think the preponderance of the evidence is that when Wonder Woman or Captain Marvel punches Superman they don't knock his head off, as they would if their magically-derived strength counted as "magic" in the relevant "Superman is mo more invulnerable to it than any human is" sense.]

3) Does Supes remember that he has near-Flash-level speed, or not? [Probably not. cf: the fight with Doomsday.]

Whichever side is favored by 2/3 of these answers wins the fight-- i.e. if Superman can lift Mjolnir and has superspeed he wins, if he can't lift it and he's vulnerable to Asgardian fists he loses.

I agree that the writing in the Superman/Thor fight in JLA/Avengers was especially crappy. On the other hand, Busiek had Captain America beat Batman without a fight, and that redeems everything else in the miniseries.

If Superman stands there and tries to slug it out with Thor, a la Doomsday, then Thor's the favorite; if Batman's on the JLA commlink providing useful hits like, "Hey Clark, even Aquaman's figured out the hammer's the source of his powers, why don't you try to knock Thor out of the way at super-speed next time he throws the hammer so it doesn't return to him?" or "Have you considered blinding him by temporarily burning out his retinas with your heat-vision?" well, it's all over.

On a side note: I've always thought that the DC character most likely to be worthy under Odin's criteria for worthiness was Wonder Woman, assuming that the Allfather was such a male chauvanist that he never actually put in some "and even though Midgardian females rarely exhibit any of these qualities, make sure they can't use it too just in case there is one" clause.

Actually, during the big DC vs. Marvel throwdown a few years back, Wonder Woman DID lift Mjolnir, and it gave her a crazy-ass Asgardazonian outfit, along with the power of Thor for her fight with Storm. Of course, she gives up use of the hammer to make the fight "fair." Sucker!

Later on in the crossover, Thor drops Mjolnir AGAIN, and WW hands it back to him, prompting Thor to give a Professor Farnsworth-y "uhWhaahhhh???"

Someone anonymous: "I mean he thought a snake the size of a planet was a fucking cat for god's sake!"

There's 3 occasions in the myths when Thor battled Jörmungandr the Midgard Serpent. One was the one you're talking about, but there was deliberate magic deception involved. Damn giants with their damn magic! However, it's the same kind of thing as when Superman gets fooled by 5th dimensional magic or that Black Flower thingie in that story or the Key's dream machine. The difference is that Superman has to use his brain power to break those deceptions (if he even does), while the giants have to eventually stop Thor because he nearly rips the Earth apart trying to lift the "cat."

The second time, which is the one I thought was referred to by the OTHER anonymous fellow, was when he went fishing and hooked the Midgard Serpent. Thor is so badass he doesn't bother fishing for flounder or tuna or nothing -- he goes straight for the big game. Again, Thor nearly reeled that sucker in and brained him with Mjolnir until his sissy of a fishing partner Hymir cut the line because he was a big fat stupid scaredy cat of a giant. "Ooooh, no, a giant fucking snake wrapped around the Earth is about to eat our boat! Save me!" Wuss.

The third time was (or will be) at Ragnarok, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the story being referred to.

There's also the comic book story where Walt Simonson does another Thor vs. J fight, but I haven't gotten that Thor Visionaries volume yet so I got no clue what happens there. Don't none of you tell me.

And I still go with Thor over Superman because magic.

Word verification is "begiotl," which coincidentally is the Old Norse swear word that wimp Hymir said when he saw that Thor actually the Midgard Serpent. Pronounced exactly as spelled, and roughly translated as, "Oh! I have soiled my furry drawers!"

For one, which Thor are we talking about? There are weaksauce versions of Thor, as mentioned earlier, where being a centuries-old Viking god doesn't come into play. As per the story where we're told that Thor goes down to hang with his worshippers and finds out that they kill people and ravage communities and such. And he goes all emo and weepy and vows nay to going to Midgard for a while.

Combine that Thor with the wussiest version of his costume and send him up against Superman, even the relatively de-powered Byrne relauch Superman? He gets his ass kicked.

Simonson Thor against Byrne-relaunch Superman? Thor wins easy.

Simonson Thor against Morrison-type God Superman? Superman, probably.

Current JMS Thor against Busiek Superman? They don't fight, they just sit down and get all emo together about how hard it is to deal with the responsibility of saving people from famine and floods and stuff. Maybe Superman takes Thor up into the stratosphere and they look all Jesus like for a while down on Earth and then Thor takes Superman to Asgard where he can totally drunk and not worry about causing massive property damage. Then they both go get tattoos together.

1. I thought being able to lift Mjolnir was all about being worthy enough. Sure, Superman has saved lives and whatever, but it seems like a decision left up to the gods of Asgard and/or the circumstances. Of course they wouldn't let someone with the shittiest disguise in comics lift the Son of Odin's hammer, especially if he's trying to beat the snot out of him.

2. A more viable option for Superman remembering his powers would be to have a playbook sewn into his costume, kind of like NFL quarterbacks.

Whenever this argument begins, someone invariably sez "Well, Superman could hit Thor a thousand times before Thor could even blink! Blah blah blah!" To which I say "How often does Superman use his super-speed in a combat scenario?" Superman often uses his super-speed when he needs to qccomplish a goal in a clever fashion, but people seem to think that Superman can, with the use of super-speed, suddenly become Goku from Dragon Ball Z or something. We've never really seen anything like that. I think it'd be a tough fight, but Thor would ultimately triumph.

On the other hand, Busiek had Captain America beat Batman without a fight, and that redeems everything else in the miniseries.

Good point. I love his description of it in that podcast, too. "The ultimate Batman/Cap fight: Batman goes like this. Cap goes like this. Batman says, 'Oh. You're good.' And that's it."

Andrew: Whose morality are you using? Mjolnir was created and enchanted by ancient Norse dwarves, at the command of Odin. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't consider killing your foes in battle a bad thing.

Question for the panel: Let's say Superman can lift the hammer. Does that stop the battle?

Thor: Mjolnir hast deemed thee worthy. Thou art a good and honorable warrior. Gladly would I fight thee for the joy of battle, but let us not be enemies.

Superman: Huh?! We're on the same side?! (Great scott! Not again!) Well then, here, have your hammer back! Let's stop wasting time pounding each other and go save some lives!

Okay, I am prepared to pit my Asperger's Syndrome against anyone's. I know it's a whole different thing, but DC Thor let Superman use Mjolnir in that Action issue with Wonder Woman. Also, for our Norse myth enthusiasts, some giant stole Mjolnir once and Thor had to dress up like a girl to get it back (this is "Thursday" Thor, not "Mighty" Thor). So if the fight happens outside the Marvel Universe, that enchantment might not count. Inside the Marvel Universe, Eric Masterson and Captain America were both trying to help Thor when they wielded it. OTOH, Beta Ray Bill was kicking Thor's ass and Odin not only didn't decide whether or not he was worthy, he let Beta and Thor duke it out for Mjolnir. So I call that a wash.

Also, if Thor lifted a portion of the Midgard Serpent and Shazam has the strength of Hercules and Atlas, two guys who each lifted the entire planet, does that mean Shazam is stronger than Thor?

You bring up an interesting point about the enchantment. But I'd think that if Thor's divine powers work wherever the battle happens to take place (and if they don't, what's the point?), the hammer's enchantment should carry over, too.

Also, small correction: Hercules and Atlas lifted the sky, not the Earth. Not sure of the relative weight, but it is an important distinction.

(Word verification: bqsborgn - Not sure what it has to do with anything, but I'm pretty sure that's what the Swedish Chef calls his cookbook collection.)

Sure he doesn't use his heat vision all that often, but the truth is, he doesn't need to. He could fight Thor without him ever getting close to Big Blue.

Now I know Thor could throw Mjolnir and cause some lightning strikes, but a hammer (even hurtling at high speeds) can be dodged, and the lightning Thor calls down is non-magical, right? (Someone might have to correct me on that one, but I always thought he used magical powers to summon regular storms and call down regular lightning, not Captain Marvel-like lightning).

I think the key to your granting Thor the win is the truth in the statement that a lot of times writers forget about Superman's versatility. The speed, the heat-vision...one example I think of is Joe Kelly's sterling Action #775 where Superman goes up against the Elite. He can't defeat them directly, so he does stuff like creating a tornado around one of the bad guys and keeping him from breathing.

Centuries of battle experience, sure, but it's centuries of a continual validation of the theory that if you launch some purple prose and a hammer at something, it will go down. I don't think Thor would be up for the indirect approach.

I think I have a satisfying answer. Writers forget all of Superman's powers, true, but they also forget all of Thor's. He can stop time and teleport through dimensions and shoot God Blasts (which sounds dirty) and all that, he just always prefers to go knuckle-to-knuckle with opponents. He also has a fatal flaw: arrogance. Odin is constantly setting him up to get his ass kicked to teach him humility. So I say the fight turns on that. Since Superman usually starts off a fight slow because he doesn't know how much his opponent can take, if Thor is arrogant and underrates Superman, just trying to outpunch him, he'll leave himself open to get flattened (assuming, as I do, that Superman is stronger, tougher, and faster). If instead, he stays humble and relies on his full panoply of powers, his magic eventually wears Superman down.

As as Thor doesn't A)proclaim his hammer to be magical first and B) throw it second, Superman would get whupped.

If he does do those two stupid things Superman will beat his head in. With his own hammer.

Heck. Superman probably could just take it away from him. Maybe not. But thing is... John Byrne would write Superman as vulnerable to lightning; so would Dan Jurgens.

I wouldn't. If Superman couldn't walk naked into a hurricane, or a Kansas Tornado, and survive that like I survive naps.... then it's silly. It's like saying Zeus doesn't like girls and/or that Olympians use condoms regularly and that Olympian condoms are impervious to failure.

So the weather is irrelevent. I doubt that Thor could not block the superman-death-rays with his hammer.

So it goes like this: if Thor simply clocks Superman with the magic hammer, he's out. If he hits Superman with the hammer's lightest magic zap ray, Superman is out. If

If Superman goes punch for punch against non-magical fist dude, Thor is out. If Superman takes away Thor's hammer by any means possible, Thor is screwed.

3) Does Supes remember that he has near-Flash-level speed, or not? [Probably not. cf: the fight with Doomsday.]

That's artistic liscense. After that particular story, in the next story, Jimmy Olson was developing his film and found that neither character was moving at a speed that was slow enough to capture on film. They were both moving at superspeed.

but there are no speed lines.

and Superman didn't just throw the goober into space.

and Lois walked into arm's reach of the battling gods in the final chapter of the Doomsday story because some fool thought that that issue should be all splash pages... which MAKES NO SENSE if it affects composition like that. The supporting cast was too close to the action.

For the first time ever, I won't even bother to read the comments to see if anyone else has already stated what I am going to...

That said, I agree that THOR would SO TOTALLY kick Superman's ass, but I disagree with a few of your bullet-points to that fact.

First off... WHY is Superman stronger?If you take a "realistic" (yeah.. I know) look at their powers and reasons for HAVING those powers, the whole "cuz a red son" shit is just bad Golden-Age era type thinking for why a guy has powers.

Thor is a god (or godling anyway).That should go a LOT further than regular guy who is in a different atmospheric environment.

Sure, it's kinda like what if a guy who could survive on the high pressures of Jupiter might be Uber-powerful here, but realistically (yeah... I know), all he'd really be able to do is be STRONGER, FASTER & jump higher.There'd be no extras like Laser-breath or eye-beams of sausage.

So, the whole Superman has a big set of powerz is just crap.

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Now, Superman IS and SHOULD BE Faster.That just makes some sense.Gods of Thunder shouldn't be built for speed.

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Superman can fly.Again... I'll "allow" it, but really, he should just be able to JUMP really far (like his origins made him do).

But as far as Thor needing to chuck Mjolner around to fly is just dumb.

Dude controls the weather!You can't say that he couldn't control the wonds directly around him to propell him around?Fuck, STORM does that to fly and SHE's just a MUTANT-HUMAN.

THOR's a friggin' GOD(ling).

The throw and grab method of transport is just stupid.

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Thor DOES indeed have a weapon.And it ROCKS the socks off of anyone who needs a SMITING!

AND, it (and Thor himself) IS magical in nature.

So... since Superman is vulnerable to that (and it would make sense that he WOULD be vulnerable to magic since it operates outside of the typical laws of physics and nature)... Superman Goes DOWN!

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It can be a CLOSE fight if you'd like.Supes DOES pack some wallop.ANd his speed and "extra b.s." powerz would make it flashy... but Thor would emerge triumphant.

Now... that still doesn't negate the fact that DOCTOR STRANGE could kick Superman's ass too (if he could do so from a distance before Superman kicks his head in).

Why do people keep bringing up that Thor is a "god?" What difference does any of that make? I thought it was accepted that Marvel's Asgardians and Olympians and all the rest are just basically powerful aliens who were worshipped by ancient suckers. In essence they're no different than the "New Gods." Yeah, they're called "Gods" but that and a nickel gets em a cup of coffee, y'know? I accept that they are powered by "magic" to some extent, just like Superman is powered by "yellow sunlight" but just being called a god doesn't make you inherently tougher than say, the Silver Surfer.

Wait, I've thought of an example: The Spectre is not a god, he would vehemently deny that he was a god. He is an agent of a god, he is totally below a god in the DC chain of command. But he completely murdilated Darkseid in that one episode of The Spectre by Ostrander. Darkseid got better, but I think the point stands. "God" status is not automatically a win.

chris-- I think Supes could just rocket himself above the clouds to soak in the rays. But also... his body has been referred to as a solar battery on more than one occasion, so I guess if it was a fight that lasted for days or weeks and he never could get out of the atmosphere, that could work.

We have to turn our attention to figuring out the transitive victory chain problem that always plagues BCS polling. If Superman beats Thor fine, but Thor still has to be able to beat General Zod. Conversely, even if Thor wins, Superman still ought to be able to beat Beta Ray Bill. Maybe Beta Ray Bill-ians are vulnerable to freeze breath?

Don't forget Thor's ability to summon dimensional portals, and fire the "godblast", which is powerful enough to drive back a fully-powered Juggernaut.

Why is everyone so down on Thor's intelligence? Sure, he has to be directed sometimes by brainy guys like the Vision or Hank Pym or Iron Man, or sometimes by great strategists like Captain America, but he's no dumber than other Avengers. Dude has centuries of experience.

Superman-Lex Luthor, Toyman, Prankster, Riot, Live Wire, Parasite, Bloodsport...some are jokes, some are scary guys, sure, but they're just not in the same class. Doomsday doesn't count, he's just a plot device. I suppose there is Mongul and Bizarro, but come on, they're the only ones in Thor's class.

"Superman-Lex Luthor, Toyman, Prankster, Riot, Live Wire, Parasite, Bloodsport...some are jokes, some are scary guys, sure, but they're just not in the same class. Doomsday doesn't count, he's just a plot device. I suppose there is Mongul and Bizarro, but come on, they're the only ones in Thor's class."

You're overlooking a lot, like the Phantom Zone villains, Darkseid, Braniac (would be a fine villain for "cosmic Thor", Mxyzptlk (not as a real adversary, but as a nuisance, he's still be a challenge). Atomic Skull and Silver Banshee are lame, but they both look really cool. They're at least as good as Cobra and Mr. Hyde or Grey Gargoyle. Titano is exactly the kind of thing Thor would have fought in the '60's. And what makes Wrecker any better than Metallo? He's just a tough guy with a crowbar.

Also, I think Superman fought Nazis, has Thor ever fought Nazis? No, he was mind-controlled by Hitler into trying to assassinate Stalin. An underwhelming effort, I have to say.

I love how Dave totally ignores EXISTING COMIC CANON, like when Dave says "Supes would forget to use these powers agains Thor..." Dave, you are so lame. Supes HAS BEATEN Thor. In the JLA vs Avengers mini-series. Try reading comics someday, Dave, you might learn something.

Anonymous idiot, Id bet $$$ Dave has read Avengers/JLA, but doesn't agree with how the Thor/Superman fight played out. Plus this was a typical not-so-serious DLB post, so you coming in with you're ridiculous "read some comic books you might learn something" comment just makes you look like a wanker fanboy who can't lighten up.

Juggernaut, of course, is magically powered. Query if Superman should have been able to take him out so easily. It seems to make more sense to discount the "Marvel vs. DC" atuff, Wonder Woman included.

Whatever else has been decided, I don't think Thor's fists should count as per se magical and here's why: Superman is powered by sunlight, but if Superman punched a Dracula, it wouldn't have any more effect than if the Hulk (or whoever) did. By analogy then, someone who's powered by magic, like Thor (assuming his Asgardian powers can be described as magical), shouldn't do more hit points damage, to borrow a phrase, just from magic.

Who says Superman has a strength advantage? I don't think so. He's got a speed advantage, but thats it. Didn't do him much good against Doomsday. Thor is meaner and tougher. Plus he's carrying around a portable nuke! Thor would waste Superman!

Superman is alot stronger than Thor, has been in more battles with beings that could smash thor. As for thor being a god, hmm well one of the eternals called the forgotten one mopped up the asgardians and he isnt a god. Superman has beaten Darkseid who is a god. Now we all know that Darkseid would thrash thor. He can lift his hammer, and even though the fight btwn supes and thor was brief, the outcome still would be the same. So they fight again, this time Superman is ready, the hammer wont hit him. As for magic, how many times has Thor actually used magic. When Hulk beat him, he tricked him into throwing away the hammer, hmm Hulk tricked Thor!! Thor is supposed to have more experience and yet hulk tricks him. In the end its Superman beating Thor everytime. Speed, strength, fighting experience, I get it Thor has fought giants but time and again when the planet needs saving, the old man of steel is the one doing it. As for writers not using his super speed, well that wouldnt make for a good storyline. Superman would wrap up the fights quick. The story would end in the first scene.

True, true. And then there's the fact that Thor is a God. Superman came to Earth to be a God and the way he flies is stupid. Krypton, Supes Planet, has a much stronger gravity force then Earth. So he can fly. But how does he fly across, and for a long time. Thor could win without Mjorlin, because he can stun him with lightning.

Superman is also weak against differently colored suns or stars. Change the sun's color? Shouldn't be too hard when your brother is Balder, God of Light! Or Loki would do it to screw with him.Not to mention back-ups like Thunderstrike (aka Thor Jr.), Odin, Destroyer Armor, & Gaea, Goddess of Earth.Thor wins. Epically

for the guy who said Thor is carrying around a portable nuke: nuclear weapons-hydrogen-solar? Superman: powered by sun. Thor outclassed the hands shouldn't count as magical. besides, Thor is a fool. everytime loki sets him up, he gets fooled (ie, the cat) and the right after, he goes right back to his old stupid self, not looking more carefully to see what's going on around him, "I'm Thor, I'm a God, worship me!" (like with the horn full of mead) so he has no potential for learning. his alter ego may, but he himself doesn't. he just does the same over and over. Supes on the other hand, uses his head all the time (Except when he eats those cheesesteaks) he would know to take Thor's hammer from him. Thor is not combat experienced enough to see how easy that would be. he couldn't even see that the horn full of mead was the oceans and would never be emptied, (so he couldn't drink oceans, anonymous) and if Odin want s to say phantom zone projectors and superdogs are incidental to supe's character, doesn't that mean, that Mjolnir is incidental to Thor's character? If you use that logic, then it's over for Thor.

It is great to observe somebody put enough craze towards a matter. I'm thankful that I stumbled upon this process. I am lucky I used the time to read on past the 1st paragraph. You have got a whole lot to say, very much to offer. I really hope guys understand this and look into your page.

It is great to observe somebody put enough craze towards a matter. I'm thankful that I stumbled upon this process. I am lucky I used the time to read on past the 1st paragraph. You have got a whole lot to say, very much to offer. I really hope guys understand this and look into your page.