The One True TheDavid:insertsnarkyusername: Alx_xlA: I guess the Sun doesn't go quite as heavy on the photoshop as the Mirror does.

[img.thesun.co.uk image 620x413]

Still looks better than most British women.

Score!

And most Kentuckian women too.

spiritplumber: Quick PC-Britishism explanation: "Girl who lived as a boy" means "MTF, but we're being proper PC and recognizingclaiming to agree that she's a girl with a birth defect rather than a boy with identity issues because we don't want death threats."

S/he's a boy with a identity issues. And I've done much worse, whether with males, females or "she-males."

They're nice to look at and etc. at that age but the ditziness of youth gets annoying after a while. If you brought me a clone of me at 17 I'd fark me hard but I'd want to duct-tape Teen Davy's mouth shut first. That must be the best part about Real Dolls: they're silent.

Just a personal observation but: If you trash the entire female population of a particular state, then offer this whatever-it-is "free [monetarily]" room and board, which I presume to mean s/he will be providing you carnal favors in exchange for your 'generosity' and mention Real Dolls all in the same post, then YOU might have some issues.

RockofAges:A) Good on her. TG is the new "Gay" in terms of social stigma. It will fall to the same forces of progress and those who treat transgendered individuals as we used to treat gays will likely be embarassed with themselves, the same way as homophobes who saw the light did (en masse) over the past 10-15 years.

Oh man, why am I even venturing into this thread...

But hey, as long as I'm here, I think I'll comment on this part. I think you're going to see a lot harder struggle for this than you are seeing with the current wave of gay acceptance. It's a lot less common. Statistically, one in ten people you meet are gay. What's the current numbers on people identifying as trans? Then you add all these subcategories, or ones that people feel like they identify more with instead of just trans, like cis, gender queer, or whatever.

I am incredibly liberal, but I find it frustrating to keep up with all these self identifiers that have a nebulous definition from person to person at best. Imagine how confusing it is for your average person living in BFE that has never met a trans person, let alone some nutter in the backwoods who actually hates anything and anyone different from them.

It's gotten to the point almost everyone personally knows someone who is gay, most likely openly. Not so much with trans folks. Add to that the physical appearance, which in most cases isn't "Baily Jay" territory, but more in the "Dude looks like a lady" realm, and you have a blueprint for a steep climb upward to acceptance. Not saying it won't happen, but I think it's going to take a generation for society as a whole to get used to gays being treated as, you know, human,before you're going to see transgendered folks making large inroads. There will be some additional acceptance just following in the wake of gay/lesbian acceptance movement, but I wouldn't expect a monumental shift for a while.

The problem arises when one becomes grandiose, and begins imagining that one is in a position to pronounce other people's "delusions" as being especially "delusional".

A delusion is a false belief contrary to obvious facts. In this case the obvious fact is that when you find XY chromosomes and male genitalia on a human being you're not looking at a female.

It's a form of authoritarianism, which, in turn, is a form of paranoia.

Oh please. The problem with my "authoritarianism" is that nobody accepts me as an authority figure, not even my dogs, and I don't try very hard to change their minds.

If expressing an opinion you disagree with counts as authoritarianism and paranoia in your book then it's you who's being bossy, isn't it? "If you don't agree with everything I say then you're a nazi and a hater!"

I use my Ignore file to spare myself being bothered by people who think they have a right to tell me what to think and say and then call me a bossy meanie if I don't knuckle under. Which just sailed right over your head again, didn't it.

RockofAges:I would not argue that there are the same number of TG individuals as there are gay / lesbian, but I would not suggest the "rarity" is as high as you are positing.

I honestly don't know what the percentage is, but I know that in my rather liberal circles I run in I see a lot less of them than I do "traditional" gays and lesbians. And I know that trans folks tend to run in the same circles, and may or may not also identify by gay or lesbian themselves.

And that's kind of my point, though. Gay, people can get. They might not like it, or even hate it, but they can understand it. You like the same sex, you're gay, if you like the opposite, you're straight, and if you're bi, then you're greedy (kidding). People can grasp that. But like I said, this "trans female that just won a beauty contest used to live as a man, but now lives as a female, identifies as..." is kind of confusing to me, and I actually KNOW people like this personally. When you start adding additional ones that, frankly, sound completely made up, it just gets confusing.

It's easy to forget when you live in larger population centers, or run in more diverse circles, that most people are possibly never going to meet someone in these unique groups. But with the internet making the world that much smaller of a place, who knows?

But, I also forgot to bring up the fact that we are a very binary species. Sexual dimorphic, if I remember the term from my sociology classes correctly. That IS the norm, no matter what people say. Yes, gay, lesbian, trans... It is different from the norm. By definition, it is abnormal. That isn't to say unheard of, or freakish and unnatural. Or is it meant to be shunned. But as an animal and as a social society, we are trained at birth with certain cultural gender norms. And cultures change slow, and are slow to recognize anything outside the norm. The more it strays from the norms, the harder it is to see mass acceptance.

Gays and Lesbians have the "advantage" that while their sexual appetites are different from the vast majority, they by and large conform to certain cultural norms. Even a "butch" lesbian still maintains certain female qualities, just as feminine gay men still maintain certain masculine ones. I think some of this will be corrected with future generations, though. As acceptance grows, kids that feel like they are the wrong gender will be able to start hormone therapy sooner, and stopping the most visible signs of male/female gender before puberty fully sets in. The kid in the article, I'm sorry, does look like a boy in drag. Females dressing as men by and large have softer features, softer skin, and of course breasts. But starting hormone therapy earlier, before strong jaws and wider hips set in, may let people slide into their preferred rolls more easily without as much judgement.

Maybe I'm rambling, and I am admittedly just using anecdotal evidence to support a theory I pulled straight out of my ass. But I know gays and lesbians that have a certain measure of trans-phobia, in that they feel like they are just being dishonest or "attention whoring." And when you have a already marginalized group like homosexuals not fully committed behind you, I just think it's going to be an even tougher struggle for you.

Flying Lasagna Monster:A teenage girl who lived as a boy until a year ago has reached the final of the Miss Coventry beauty queen competition.Brave Jordan Davis says she's determined to

We get it, you're a pretentious tool. But at least Facebook is now more accommodating to your form of body dysmorphic disorder.

The first time I read that sentence I thought that "Brave" was her new chosen first name (as many transgender people understandably seem to do after their change), and thought the same thing. But in the rest of TFA they refer to her only as Jordan, so it seems like it's the author who's just saying that she's brave. I'm assuming that confusion is the source of your opinion.

As for the body dysmorphia, I've thought about this before and I think that the distinction is that someone who is truly dysmorphic will never be happy with their appearance no matter how they look (think bag-of-antlers anorexic girls who still think they're fat), while someone like her can be satisfied and move on with her life after her change. I'm sure there are transgender people who are also dysmorphic, but it doesn't seem to be across the board.

Still think that the bathroom you use should most closely match your genitals and that if you have anything potentially unexpected going on in your pants it is probably best to bring it up with a potential partner before the big reveal.

RockofAges:Lots of good points. I agree with most of them. The hate from the gay and lesbian lobby is nothing new to transgendered folks, look at the rough ride bisexuals get from the "pure gays".

I don't agree that human beings are sexually hardline to the degree that you suggest. Men may be, but women certainly aren't.

In our American/western society, maybe. We sexualize women more so than men, though, so it's not surprising. Two men together, to my personal view, is not something sexy that I want to witness. But be lying if two hot women going at it didn't make me take notice, however. I think that's why you see a lot more acceptance, even if it's of the creepy variety, for lesbians than you do gay men. Two "wrongs" don't make a right, but two "rights" are just awesome, so to speak.

But in other cultures, fundamentalist Muslim for instance, any homosexuality is deemed worthy of death. But then, so is eating a donut from Krispy Kreme, so maybe not the best example there. That said, when you look at the Taiwanese, or many old Native American cultures, transgender is not just an accepted thing but in some cases celebrated.

I think we can say that we are gender bimorphic by nature, but obviously culture and societal pressures can have a greater influence than our monkey brains do on our traditional gender roles.

As far as this hate you talk about for bisexuals and trans coming from more "traditional" homosexuals, I can't really say. I've seen it, but I don't know how widespread it actually is. But it's also not surprising. Racial minorities struggled for years for any semblance of equality, and still are struggling. But statistically, these same folks are voting in the majority to deny these same rights of marriage and the like to homosexuals. Everyone needs a group they can look down on, apparently.

The Envoy:For years they swore there was scientific proof schizophrenia was caused by certain abnormalities in the brain. Then it turned out the drugs they used to treat it caused the brain damage. OOPS.

Citation needed.

I hate to throw in with him on anything, but that much is true. Almost any drug is going to have an effect on your brain, even if it is inconsequential. But when mood altering or stabilizing drugs like the ones used in schizophrenia, you're probably going to see more.

Shadowtag:Go on not understanding how transgenders and transexuals work, but I advise getting out of the way. The world isn't going to stop and explain it to you.

Part of it is the community itself needs to get on a standard. Humans like to classify and categorize. This person in the article, by definition, doesn't want to be categorized. And like I rambled on about above, I have people in my life that can't decide if they are male, female, or some made up term that has a different meaning depending on who you ask.

That isn't to say you should be denied rights or belittled, but a standard definition is needed to get wide acceptance started. You can't just go with what you feel like that day, or make up a term no one has heard of, and expect people to just go along with it.

Fafai:I'm bi. I haven't gotten any real "hate" from gays about it but I do get skepticism and condescendence from gays and straights alike, like they know better than I do about my sexuality.

Well, that's just because you're greedy and lazy. Just willing to accept any genitalia that comes your way, like a horny Venus Fly Trap. It's not right. Getting laid should be hard and frustrating, damn it.

IamAwake:diaphoresis: I never understood the people who use ignore lists. Does it mean they are less tolerant of people's opinions that don't match their own?

I use it for people who post large quantities of unrelated pictures in a thread, or people who are more than just minor trolls. That said, if I or anyone else wanted to filter more liberally - what do you care? Why is anyone here obligated to read what everyone says? If put on an ignore list, typically you'll not even know. You won't be harmed in any way. You're still free to feel as though you got the attention of the same number of people, that they all felt you were a special snowflake with unique and beautiful ideas. You can feel that independent of how much of said writing of yours, that others may actually be reading.

I dunno if you know this, but some people's opinion is that they should just shiat on people. They'll say one thing until it isn't the outside thing, then they'll say a different thing. They just want to be obnoxious. They're not adding to the conversation - they're derailing it. That's what for which the ignore button is typically solving.

So now you know!

I always ignore transphobes because I simply don't give a crap about what a person's opinion on anything else might be if they can't even summon the strength to be respectful of fellow human beings.

Why do you continue to participate in these threads? You have one thought, no insight, and your opinion is unwavering despite contradictory evidence provided by many other people here. You blather ad nauseam with nothing useful to impart. You are bigoted, incurious, willfully ignorant and proud of it. I'm tired of seeing your name littering the place.

Shadowknight:Fafai: I'm bi. I haven't gotten any real "hate" from gays about it but I do get skepticism and condescendence from gays and straights alike, like they know better than I do about my sexuality.

Well, that's just because you're greedy and lazy. Just willing to accept any genitalia that comes your way, like a horny Venus Fly Trap. It's not right. Getting laid should be hard and frustrating, damn it.

Shadowknight:The Envoy: For years they swore there was scientific proof schizophrenia was caused by certain abnormalities in the brain. Then it turned out the drugs they used to treat it caused the brain damage. OOPS.

Citation needed.

I hate to throw in with him on anything, but that much is true. Almost any drug is going to have an effect on your brain, even if it is inconsequential. But when mood altering or stabilizing drugs like the ones used in schizophrenia, you're probably going to see more.

Not the best source, but they do cite all of their research and the studies they come from in every section.

From the very first sentence:"SUMMARY: Changes in brain structure are caused both by the disease process of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and by the antipsychotic drugs used to treat these diseases".

His contention was that the damage seen in schizophrenia was causedby the drugs. This is obviously not the case. I'm not saying the drugs don't exacerbate the damage but they don't cause it. So there is still scientific proof that schizophrenia is caused by abnormalities in the brain. Unless people are taking antipsychotic drugs prior to developing schizophrenia then this contention is just as stupid as the rest of his posts.

The Envoy:From the very first sentence:"SUMMARY: Changes in brain structure are caused both by the disease process of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and by the antipsychotic drugs used to treat these diseases".

His contention was that the damage seen in schizophrenia was causedby the drugs. This is obviously not the case. I'm not saying the drugs don't exacerbate the damage but they don't cause it. So there is still scientific proof that schizophrenia is caused by abnormalities in the brain. Unless people are taking antipsychotic drugs prior to developing schizophrenia then this contention is just as stupid as the rest of his posts.

I didn't take his comment as that. I took it that they were trying to see if schizophrenia patients had different brain structure. A study found that they did, indeed, have a different structure. But upon further analysis, they realized that a lot of that structure difference was caused by the drugs, as every schizophrenic patient that looked at had been on drugs for years to treat their disease. Thus, it tainted the study.

Again, not trying to defend his overall views, whatever they are. But the small point he was making HERE may have real reasoning behind it.