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In Naruto and Bleach, it's villains that take this role. And they fail

Technically there were no villains in Bleach until Tokinada, in the Novel Hisagi is the main character as he is looking into everything as it unfolds before him without bias as a reporter, with Ichigo it always painted the Soul Society as the good guys, now we see how corrupt the shinigami are, the fact that Yhwach was merely trying to restore the universe to how it was to stop death, give mercy to his father who was betrayed with the first sin, we also now know that Urahara pretty much had the same view as Aizen regarding the current state of the soul king but he had problems with Aizen's approach, no one is ever the bad guy even with Ginjo being betrayed and lied to as both him and Ukitake are manipulated, everything is gray (except Tokinada)

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Technically there were no villains in Bleach until Tokinada, in the Novel Hisagi is the main character as he is looking into everything as it unfolds before him without bias as a reporter, with Ichigo it always painted the Soul Society as the good guys, now we see how corrupt the shinigami are, the fact that Yhwach was merely trying to restore the universe to how it was to stop death, give mercy to his father who was betrayed with the first sin, we also now know that Urahara pretty much had the same view as Aizen regarding the current state of the soul king but he had problems with Aizen's approach, no one is ever the bad guy even with Ginjo being betrayed and lied to as both him and Ukitake are manipulated, everything is gray (except Tokinada)

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Naruto, One Piece, Bleach. None of these are particularly deep at all. But I'll choose Naruto, since OP is immature and cringey, and Bleach is un-relatable, boring, and pushes a similar message in a even worse way.

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I would like to see you name one example in which Naruto does more or better

Keep thinking that.

Less shallow than your response for sure though.

I feel so sorry for you, you must really care about Bleach to still be this angry all these years later since MVC. Anyway how about...everything since it actually resonated with audiences to become THE number one anime on this planet. Where I'm from Bleach was canned of Friday night cartoon television in no time because of how bored audiences were with it.

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I feel so sorry for you, you must really care about Bleach to still be this rabid all these years later since MVC. Anyway how about...everything since it actually resonated with audiences to become THE number one anime on this planet. Where I'm from Bleach was canned of Friday night cartoon television in no time because of how bored audiences were with it.

I have a younger cousin that, when asked to provide an example of a certain topic he wants to make a point in, and can't even think of one, he replies with something like "oh, maaany many things" lol.

I can't believe you actually pulled an argumentum ad populum while simultaneously failing to deliver a proper response.

By the way, One Piece outsells every Shonen manga ever made and is ongoing despite starting before Naruto. So by your own faulty logic, YOU admit One Piece is better than Naruto lmao. Yup, feel sorry for me.

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I have a younger cousin that, when asked to provide an example of a certain topic he wants to make a point in, and can't even think of one, he replies with something like "oh, maaany many things" lol.

I can't believe you actually pulled an argumentum ad populum while simultaneously failing to deliver a proper response.

By the way, One Piece outsells every Shonen manga ever made and is ongoing despite starting before Naruto. So by your own faulty logic, YOU admit One Piece is better than Naruto lmao. Yup, feel sorry for me.

*Attempts to make a unfunny joke about immaturity* - *Also write's "Oh they are plenty deep" and "That's a very shallow overview of One Piece" as serious responses.* Nice try.

I can't believe how you confuse the simple logic of "people buy what they relate or are entertained by(as solidified in my first post) as consumers" with "people say so and so so it's better and that's a fact", unless you can prove I meant the later you're out of luck since none of my responses state such. This is simple market share.

Did I say Manga though? Learn to read, Naruto is a vast multi-media billion dollar business that captured the coveted North American market in mass where OP failed, and Bleach didn't chart period.

Yes I still feel sorry for you, you actually replied to practically everything in this thread in desperation.

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*Attempts to make a unfunny joke about immaturity* - *Also write's "Oh they are plenty deep" and "That's a very shallow overview of One Piece" as serious responses.* Nice try.

I can't believe how you confuse the simple logic of "people buy what they relate or are entertained by(as solidified in my first post) as consumers" with "people say so and so so it's better and that's a fact", unless you can prove I meant the later you're out of luck since none of my responses state such. This is simple market share.

Did I say Manga though? Learn to read, Naruto is a vast multi-media billion dollar business that captured the coveted North American market in mass where OP failed, and Bleach didn't chart period.

Yes I still feel sorry for you, you actually replied to practically everything in this thread in desperation.

Ok. But don't let that distract you from the fact that BLEACH is the GOAT of GOATS.

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*Attempts to make a unfunny joke about immaturity* - *Also write's "Oh they are plenty deep" and "That's a very shallow overview of One Piece" as serious responses.* Nice try.

It's ironic that you think it's a joke, even though you still haven't given me the example in which Bleach is less relatable or "pushes a similar message in a even worse way."

Define relatable, by the way. Because one thing is to have 3 million viewers relate with a character being rejected by a girl vs a character that is in many relatable situations. ie, the first one has a larger audience, but does not portray more than one real life situation, as opposed to the other. Or do you define it as something else altogether?

I can't believe how you confuse the simple logic of "people buy what they relate or are entertained by(as solidified in my first post) as consumers" with "people say so and so so it's better and that's a fact", unless you can prove I meant the later you're out of luck since none of my responses state such. This is simple market share.

First of all that is not accurate. "Relatable" is but one quality in a character that may attract a viewer. It's not a synonym of "entertaining" or "likeable" or any other number of characteristics.

So the argument that sales imply automatic relatability is invalid to start with. It's an assumption. I didn't like Orochimaru because I related to him. I liked him because I found him cool.

In any case, you're talking in terms of personal preference instead of depth, which is the topic. Why even bring it up

Did I say Manga though? Learn to read, Naruto is a vast multi-media billion dollar business that captured the coveted North American market in mass where OP failed, and Bleach didn't chart period.

Oh great, let's include video games and movies and them trading cards while we're at it. You're still off-topic

Yes I still feel sorry for you, you actually replied to practically everything in this thread in desperation.

Seriously speaking, I wanna say that Naruto is the deepest due to featuring the biggest collection of strong, overarching themes amongst these, but some of them were very poorly handled (particularly the case where one's greatness can be decided through hard work and not being born for it). One Piece's tone might be immature at many times, but it doesn't betray its messages like Naruto. Bleach doesn't seem to have any major prevalent themes like the other two. Could be wrong, though.

It's ironic that you think it's a joke, even though you still haven't given me the example in which Bleach is less relatable or "pushes a similar message in a even worse way."

Define relatable, by the way. Because one thing is to have 3 million viewers relate with a character being rejected by a girl vs a character that is in many relatable situations. ie, the first one has a larger audience, but does not portray more than one real life situation, as opposed to the other. Or do you define it as something else altogether?

First of all that is not accurate. "Relatable" is but one quality in a character that may attract a viewer. It's not a synonym of "entertaining" or "likeable" or any other number of characteristics.

So the argument that sales imply automatic relatability is invalid to start with. It's an assumption. I didn't like Orochimaru because I related to him. I liked him because I found him cool.

In any case, you're talking in terms of personal preference instead of depth, which is the topic. Why even bring it up

Oh great, let's include video games and movies and them trading cards while we're at it. You're still off-topic

You said so yourself, I'm angry.

I don't see how you can't understand his argument about relating to Naruto More , going to school, seeing people being jumped, being attacked by bullies, prejudice against appearance, wanting to keep one's friends and family safe in the current timeline set in our world these are all unrealistic, but ninja's with giant monsters inside of them being attacked by aliens with hand eyes, now that I relate to :P

Seriously speaking, I wanna say that Naruto is the deepest due to featuring the biggest collection of strong, overarching themes amongst these, but some of them were very poorly handled (particularly the case where one's greatness can be decided through hard work and not being born for it).

To think that Naruto threw that out just at the end of the final arc. Well, at least it stayed true to it with Lee, maybe.

One Piece's tone might be immature at many times, but it doesn't betray its messages like Naruto.

Why immature? I don't get this term

Bleach doesn't seem to have any major prevalent themes like the other two. Could be wrong, though.

Well in the case of Ichigo, one of the most recurring themes is dealing with situations that butcher your resolve. This is portrayed by Zangetsu(s) in his inner world(you know, with the rain and the shape of the city.) The point is that despair fills up every time Ichigo hits a dead end, and he does it a lot. You have to remember that, unlike the standard Shonen MC, Ichigo is dragged into a world that is too big for him, and he didn't even want a part of. But he always ends up accepting, assimilating, and overcoming the source of his despair, and winning in the end.

Edit: To expand on the theme of despair, White Zangetsu personifies it most of the time, though Fake Zangetsu also had a hand. And it is in "the Blade is Me" that Ichigo fully comes to term with them and refers to both of them as himself.
Because technically, despair is developed in one's own mind, and it's only as big as one makes it out to be.

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It's ironic that you think it's a joke, even though you still haven't given me the example in which Bleach is less relatable or "pushes a similar message in a even worse way."

Define relatable, by the way. Because one thing is to have 3 million viewers relate with a character being rejected by a girl vs a character that is in many relatable situations. ie, the first one has a larger audience, but does not portray more than one real life situation, as opposed to the other. Or do you define it as something else altogether?

First of all that is not accurate. "Relatable" is but one quality in a character that may attract a viewer. It's not a synonym of "entertaining" or "likeable" or any other number of characteristics.

So the argument that sales imply automatic relatability is invalid to start with. It's an assumption. I didn't like Orochimaru because I related to him. I liked him because I found him cool.

In any case, you're talking in terms of personal preference instead of depth, which is the topic. Why even bring it up

Oh great, let's include video games and movies and them trading cards while we're at it. You're still off-topic

Relatable is being able to see yourself in something or someone to setup understanding. This is where Naruto's layout is marketing genius. They hit every single stereotype in their main cast and more. And by making them the main cast is cast an air of inclusiveness.

Are you a bonafide loser looking for a comeup? Here's Naruto

Are you the mysterious cool guy with a seedy past? Here's Sasuke

Are you the vapid popular girl? Here's Sakura

Are you the fat, desperate one? Here's Choji

Are you the bitch? Here's Ino

Are you lazy but soulful? Here's Shikamaru

Are you the shy one with unrequited love? Here's Hinata

Are you gross and creepy? Here's Shino

Are you the talent less hard worker who won't quit? Here's Lee.

Are you the pessimist secretly praying for some Hope? Here's Neji

I never said relate-ability was synonymous with entertainment or likability which is why I listed them apart "un-relatable, boring, and pushes a similar message in a even worse way."

It isn't automatic but to ignore sales and popularity as a factor is ridiculous. It doesn't have to go hand in hand with being sound to be valid. Donald Trump is a racist and misogynist and his rhetoric is stupid, BUT his base relates because it relates to deep south white America's racism and conservatism/ignorance so they related to him on a racially charged/. Lack of understanding of the way he appealed to his demo is why people were unprepared and surprised when he beat Hillary.

Same thing here it is simply untrue to suggest that the vast majority of Naruto fans don't either connect with the characters, are inspired by them, or look up to them. Ironically you mentioned video games which is the physical manifestation of my argument. The reason the Naruto Ultimate Ninja series and all other multi media games rake in so much money is because the same people who love the story in the manga/anime now want to vicariously live as the characters they seek to be through video games since they relate to them on some level. God knows those games are awful and only a fan of the manga/anime could love them.

Also don't be dense and ask me why I'm talking about relate-ability when in my original post and specifically ended and separated the points my comment on depth and than relate-ability with periods. You chose to respond to that even though you don't think it has a place in this thread, than continue to fuel it's presence in this thread despite said aversion. Should have just left your original quotation of my post at my comment on depth and worked your way up.

Furthermore let's be clear I brought it up as a mitigating factor because if something supposedly "deep" doesn't get you feeling some type of way or thinking hard after than in essence there's a block to said message hurting the ability to relate to it. And yes despite how upfront it was Naruto kept it's anti-war message reinforced from the very first arc until the end with every villain, every speech and every situation being a building block towards that undeniably by virtue of how over the top Kishi would sell said point. So damn right did it's message come out so much better than anything Bleach did, in fact Naruto as a series is practically synonymous with that in every way something someone with even a rudimentary knowledge of the series would know.

Lastly it's immature to be angry over this. I've noticed you've done this before on MVC and was frankly surprised and not surprised to see you doing the same song and dance in this thread after all these years. To suggest that I'm immature for a response you did with less detail when you've flown up and down this thread trying to police every comment is downright laughable.

Apparently it's not simple. The genre by itsef is irrelevant to relatability. A question this plain can only be answered with regards to preference. From then on it depends on if the story can keep it's viewers. I think it's safe to say that none or an insignificant amount of viewers are ninjas or pirates or spiritual mediums. Because that's how Ichigo started btw. So the point you're trying to make makes it impossible for anyone to relate to any fantasy-based fiction.

Relatable is being able to see yourself in something or someone to setup understanding.

Yes

This is where Naruto's layout is marketing genius. They hit every single stereotype in their main cast and more. And by making them the main cast is cast an air of inclusiveness.

Are you a bonafide loser looking for a comeup? Here's Naruto

Are you the mysterious cool guy with a seedy past? Here's Sasuke

Are you the vapid popular girl? Here's Sakura

Are you the fat, desperate one? Here's Choji

Are you the bitch? Here's Ino

Are you lazy but soulful? Here's Shikamaru

Are you the shy one with unrequited love? Here's Hinata

Are you gross and creepy? Here's Shino

Are you the talent less hard worker who won't quit? Here's Lee.

Are you the pessimist secretly praying for some Hope? Here's Neji

Okay, some of these may count for depth. I'm sure you're aware that a relatable character is not automatically deep.

I never said relate-ability was synonymous with entertainment or likability which is why I listed them apart "un-relatable, boring, and pushes a similar message in a even worse way."

I'm just making sure.

It isn't automatic but to ignore sales and popularity as a factor is ridiculous. It doesn't have to go hand in hand with being sound to be valid. Donald Trump is a racist and misogynist and his rhetoric is stupid, BUT his base relates because it relates to deep south white America's racism and conservatism/ignorance so they related to him on a racially charged/. Lack of understanding of the way he appealed to his demo is why people were unprepared and surprised when he beat Hillary.

I'm saying that for the purpose of the topic, which is depth, popularity is not a valid argument. Because there are different factors that determine what appeals to someone, not exclusively relatability, which is the term being used arguably for Naruto's depth.

Same thing here it is simply untrue to suggest that the vast majority of Naruto fans don't either connect with the characters, are inspired by them, or look up to them.

It neither denies nor confirms it. And it certainly doesn't suggest more depth.

Ironically you mentioned video games which is the physical manifestation of my argument. The reason the Naruto Ultimate Ninja series and all other multi media games rake in so much money is because the same people who love the story in the manga/anime now want to vicariously live as the characters they seek to be through video games since they relate to them on some level. God knows those games are awful and only a fan of the manga/anime could love them.

You are throwing way too many assumptions. I myself started to buy the Naruto games before even knowing what it was because I was a kid that simply enjoyed the gameplay. I did so with DBZ too. Hell, I still buy them today to enjoy the better-than-anime animations
The audience is also a factor for popularity.

Also don't be dense and ask me why I'm talking about relate-ability when in my original post and specifically ended and separated the points my comment on depth and than relate-ability with periods. You chose to respond to that even though you don't think it has a place in this thread, than continue to fuel it's presence in this thread despite said aversion. Should have just left your original quotation of my post at my comment on depth and worked your way up.

Furthermore let's be clear I brought it up as a mitigating factor because if something supposedly "deep" doesn't get you feeling some type of way or thinking hard after than in essence there's a block to said message hurting the ability to relate to it.

It's an assumption that the depth of the series is the source of the relatability of the majority of the consumers. That's another thing entirely. Relating to Naruto is not the same thing as relating to the themes in Naruto, nor that they are more, nor that they are deeper.

And yes despite how upfront it was Naruto kept it's anti-war message reinforced from the very first arc until the end with every villain, every speech and every situation being a building block towards that undeniably by virtue of how over the top Kishi would sell said point.

Okay that counts. But it's one. One which the other series share.

So damn right did it's message come out so much better than anything Bleach did, in fact Naruto as a series is practically synonymous with that in every way something someone with even a rudimentary knowledge of the series would know.

If Kishi was obvious about it, then all the more reason. Remember how I said that the audience is a factor? This is still an argument of popularity and does not support depth.

You're arguments so far, excluding the ones I said that "count"^, water down to "because it's more popular, it must be more relatable, hence deeper."

You're supposed to convince me and/or the others of the themes that Naruto portrays and how it does it "better," through your own analysis, and not through -and it applies- argumentum ad populum.

Lastly it's immature to be angry over this.

Dude, I'm not angry

I've noticed you've done this before on MVC and was frankly surprised and not surprised to see you doing the same song and dance in this thread after all these years.

What exactly am I doing that irritates you?

To suggest that I'm immature for a response you did with less detail

You're taking my jabs too seriously. I asked for an example explicitly and you said "everything." I wanted specifics which you only just gave right now

when you've flown up and down this thread trying to police every comment is downright laughable.

Hey, it's one of my hobbies to participate in these discussions. If yours is to laugh it up then enjoy. Just try to not go too off-topic while you're at it since, afaik, it's a rule.