Windows 8 discussion (8.1 Update coming April 8)

...which, as we have demonstrated, is not a function of Windows 8, but of your relationship with your IT department.

my IT department has absolutely zero bearing on microsoft's demented machinations. that was a tangent regarding how IT people love windows because it makes their lives easier (while making everyone else's more annoying).

my IT department has absolutely zero bearing on microsoft's demented machinations. that was a tangent regarding how IT people love windows because it makes their lives easier (while making everyone else's more annoying).

my IT department has absolutely zero bearing on microsoft's demented machinations. that was a tangent regarding how IT people love windows because it makes their lives easier (while making everyone else's more annoying).

Your work computer IS NOT the same as your home computer. In a business environment, things MUST secure and locked down.

again, a nagging nanny telling me he knows better than i. you don't even know me, you presumptuous boor. what gives you the right to say i don't understand networks any more than you?

i suppose if you participate in this mentality, i shouldn't expect you to see beyond it. again: it's one thing to have a drool-proof default, it's another thing entirely to lock people into it. i'm primarily complaining about the mandatory, in unalterable GUI interface and workflow, not the access restrictions. no one seems to get this!

When you brought up you're complaining about your work Windows machine and that you use Linux at home.

Microsoft and Apple dictate the GUI of their software, although they both have feedback programs, but you won't radically change the direction of their software. With Linux, you can rip out the GUI and use whatever shitty interface of the day is available.

my IT department has absolutely zero bearing on microsoft's demented machinations. that was a tangent regarding how IT people love windows because it makes their lives easier (while making everyone else's more annoying).

Your work computer IS NOT the same as your home computer. In a business environment, things MUST secure and locked down.

again, a nagging nanny telling me he knows better than i. you don't even know me, you presumptuous boor. what gives you the right to say i don't understand networks any more than you?

i suppose if you participate in this mentality, i shouldn't expect you to see beyond it. again: it's one thing to have a drool-proof default, it's another thing entirely to lock people into it. i'm primarily complaining about the mandatory, in unalterable GUI interface and workflow, not the access restrictions. no one seems to get this!

You're not locked into it by Microsoft. Period. The full Desktop experience is there. You will be able to replace the Metro Start menu (and in fact there are mods already). You have no argument.

again, a nagging nanny telling me he knows better than i. you don't even know me, you presumptuous boor. what gives you the right to say i don't understand networks any more than you?

If you understand networks as well as the IT guys, why aren't you in IT?

Also, to the commenter that said because we could cut our helpdesk staff in half meant I didn't know IT, welcome to the world of more systems than users. We had about 200 users across five different locations (two in one city, two in other states, one in another country). That's not large, but it is definitely more than a mom & pop shop (accidentally typed "poop" there and got a little chuckle). We ran a data center for customer-facing stuff and had a decent-sized IT staff.

i suppose if you participate in this mentality, i shouldn't expect you to see beyond it. again: it's one thing to have a drool-proof default, it's another thing entirely to lock people into it. i'm primarily complaining about the mandatory, in unalterable GUI interface and workflow, not the access restrictions. no one seems to get this!

Maybe you're not making your case very clearly.

Could you give a few specific examples of interface features you don't like, and then discuss the solutions you would like to see or be able to create for yourself? Maybe with a side discussion of whatever technical barriers prevent you from creating these solutions you dream of?

Handwaving at "Metro" or "the desktop" is not enough. Be specific! Maybe include some screenshots with your own markup.

again, a nagging nanny telling me he knows better than i. you don't even know me, you presumptuous boor. what gives you the right to say i don't understand networks any more than you?

A lot of companies don't lock down or filter their internal networks and give employees admin rights on their work computers by default or if requested. They're normally tech companies though (including Microsoft itself), not just non-tech ones with an IT department. You should consider moving.

when you guys get done with 20 pages of arguing about what should happen at the corner of the screen, i suggest a new point of debate: why am i not allowed to create my own interface? why am i not allowed? let me do the work they don't feel like doing, to get it how i want. people happy with it stock can leave it stock, but us compulsive refiners can dig in and edit the environment. that's the fundamental problem: microsoft thinks it knows me better than i know myself. one size does not fit all. unclench your anus.

Do you realize allowing unrestricted modification is a support, performance, stability, and security nightmare? Why do you think iOS is locked down? Why do you need to jailbreak it? Apple has gone as far as adding Gatekeeper to PREVENT unsigned apps from running. Why do we need to root Android? Look at what happened with Windows XP granting administrative rights by default!

You are FREE to write a new shell for Windows if you WANT, but don't expect MS to do it to YOUR liking. Believe it or not, they have well over a billion users, and it's simply not possible to satisfy everyone's preferences. Do you see explorer.exe? Well, kill it and write a new one to your liking.

It's very obvious that one size does not fit all; there are over one billion users. How do you expect any company to satisfy everyone? You just CAN'T from a practical and economical standpoint.

my point is that such things are strongly discouraged with microsoft. it always feels like it's a rolls royce and the dealer has a $20k computer widget to plug in and analyze the engine. what can you do with something like that? you can awkwardly drill a hole in the pristine dashboard and put a tacky button on. it's custom, but the car doesn't really want to be custom. it wants to be as the manufacturer wants it.

but the thing is, there are many, many types of cars out there. you don't have to buy a car like that. you can buy an old honda with a really obvious fusebox and do all sorts of silly things with it, like remote control it.

with operating systems, it's like i am required to use a company car i hate, and use it hours every day.

There's nothing stopping you from doing all the "silly thing" on any operating system. The limitation is not the OS; the limitation is YOU. Are you capable of doing what you want? If so, do it. If not, hire someone.

No, the "problem" is trying to customize a locked down system. There's a reason why it's locked-down. The machine is not yours. You are not free to customize it; your corporate overlords dictate that.

On your own machine, you're free to do whatever the hell you want with it and you'd have to be insane to not realize that people are inevitably going to mod Windows 8's theming and funcionality.

locking things down may make life easier for some harried IT boffin, but it makes life a lot harder for anyone trying to get real work done. IT has forgotten that its job is to help other people do theirs.

I am thoroughly confused by this claim? IT at my company, by default, do not allow administrative rights. The software that workers need to their job are all installed. Locking down is not primarily to make IT work "easier". It's necessary to protect the company from leaking proprietary and confidential data. It prevent workers from installing unapproved software that can make them liable. It tries to mitigate virus and malware from spreading internally. It's good practice to NOT give more rights than necessary to get the job done. If a virus were to break out and starting infecting users with administrative rights, then whose heads do think will be on the chopping block?

You are right. The job of IT is to help you. But more importantly, their job is to protect the company from liability.

again: it's one thing to have a drool-proof default, it's another thing entirely to lock people into it. i'm primarily complaining about the mandatory, in unalterable GUI interface and workflow

Firstly "in unalterable"?Secondly, what fricken workflow. Are you confused between your biz PC configuration and how Windows comes out of the box? Are you one of those guys that complains that your "Windows Microsoft" isn't working when the monitor power lead is yanked out?

I think what you need to do is rather than vague bitching about "drool proof" you need to DL a copy of Windows 8 - you can either get the CP or wait until June for the RP - and actually use it rather than relying on whatever the hell you're relying on for information. Then feel free to rant away.

it's one thing to have a drool-proof default, it's another thing entirely to lock people into it. i'm primarily complaining about the mandatory, in unalterable GUI interface and workflow, not the access restrictions. no one seems to get this!

Maybe you're not making your case very clearly.

Could you give a few specific examples of interface features you don't like, and then discuss the solutions you would like to see or be able to create for yourself? Maybe with a side discussion of whatever technical barriers prevent you from creating these solutions you dream of?

here's an obvious one: first we had the control panel. then we had to switch the control panel to "classic mode." now the control panel is split up into three parts. the new, third, "user-friendly" control panel only serves to trap you for five minutes before you realize it doesn't do what you want.... there are literally dozens of bafflingly idiotic design decisions like this. individually, none of them would be so bad, but they stack up right fast.

do these senseless, limp-brained design "innovations" stop me from typing a word document? no. but they frustrate me, they slow me down... and it's insulting! i don't care if it boots up faster. that's what, 0.02% of my day? i can go make coffee while the PC boots, but i can't dodge the piss-poor desktop experience. i have to bang my head against it all day.

Happysin wrote:

You're not locked into it by Microsoft. Period. The full Desktop experience is there. You will be able to replace the Metro Start menu (and in fact there are mods already). You have no argument.

1) you dudes tell me i'm not locked into microsoft, i can make my own shell, i can go use linux

2) you tell me i'm not allowed to make my own shell/use linux at work for my own good

3) you tell me i'm not locked into anything because i can quit work and join the peace corps or something

maybe you guys live in a land where anyone can quit jobs until they find one that's paradise, but i live in reality. nothing's perfect. saying "if you don't like it, leave" is just the entitled man's excuse to avoid fixing a real problem (wonder how many of you vote GOP?).

KevinN206 wrote:

Do you realize allowing unrestricted modification is a support, performance, stability, and security nightmare? Why do you think iOS is locked down? Why do you need to jailbreak it? Apple has gone as far as adding Gatekeeper to PREVENT unsigned apps from running. Why do we need to root Android? Look at what happened with Windows XP granting administrative rights by default!

i have no problem with a tablet/phone being locked down, as those are consumption devices. but if you buy a desktop/laptop from apple, you get OSX, which is not iOS, and not locked down. this is not to say that OSX doesn't have similar issues (that's another thread entirely).

KevinN206 wrote:

It's very obvious that one size does not fit all; there are over one billion users. How do you expect any company to satisfy everyone? You just CAN'T from a practical and economical standpoint.

this is exactly my problem: they're trying to make windows 8 run on ALL DEVICES. desktops, tablets, phones, laptops, pacemakers... and while it works fine on a tablet, it continues microsoft's pattern of making the desktop experience worse and worse with every release. IT likes having one product across everything because management is easier, and i don't begrudge them for this. but windows 8 goes too far!

dcook32p wrote:

netblaz wrote:

again, a nagging nanny telling me he knows better than i. you don't even know me, you presumptuous boor. what gives you the right to say i don't understand networks any more than you?

If you understand networks as well as the IT guys, why aren't you in IT?

because the pay grade is horrible and they're currently in the process of outsourcing half the roles to india. if your IT department is full of defensive, territorial blowhards you have to fight with over trivialities, why not cheap out?

i'm much happier/better compensated as a software engineer, except when i have to fight with IT.

Actually, no. I'm not being passive-aggressive at all, I'm questioning his core premise. I do It and business consulting. I hear from both the executive team, the sales team, and the IT teams about what they need to do their job, and then find solutions to make them all work together.

Exactly. You are a hired-gun which means that while you might be the smartest person in the room you still have to bend over for the executives. It drives you crazy.

If you understand networks as well as the IT guys, why aren't you in IT?

Also, to the commenter that said because we could cut our helpdesk staff in half meant I didn't know IT, welcome to the world of more systems than users. We had about 200 users across five different locations (two in one city, two in other states, one in another country). That's not large, but it is definitely more than a mom & pop shop (accidentally typed "poop" there and got a little chuckle). We ran a data center for customer-facing stuff and had a decent-sized IT staff.

I can't speak for netblaz but 'IT' is something I learned on the job in my freetime while doing other things on the computer that made money for the business. Hooking up a router to the internet and wiring computers and setting up LDAP is not black magic. Anyone that knows how to locate pirated O'Reilly books from Russia can do what any 'IT' department does.

As far as you not knowing 'IT' if you think having a team of two people then obviously you are small fries. Try working someplace where you need SAN with RAID for hot standby failover of terabytes of data, all the while your networking needs to be triple-redundant so that trading activities continue regardless of what happens. Meanwhile you have linux servers at colos in Chicago and New York humming away and dumbass fratboys on Windows machines 'trading'.

That's what I'd call 'IT' if anything can be called 'IT' really. Whatever.

If you understand networks as well as the IT guys, why aren't you in IT?

Also, to the commenter that said because we could cut our helpdesk staff in half meant I didn't know IT, welcome to the world of more systems than users. We had about 200 users across five different locations (two in one city, two in other states, one in another country). That's not large, but it is definitely more than a mom & pop shop (accidentally typed "poop" there and got a little chuckle). We ran a data center for customer-facing stuff and had a decent-sized IT staff.

I can't speak for netblaz but 'IT' is something I learned on the job in my freetime while doing other things on the computer that made money for the business. Hooking up a router to the internet and wiring computers and setting up LDAP is not black magic. Anyone that knows how to locate pirated O'Reilly books from Russia can do what any 'IT' department does.

As far as you not knowing 'IT' if you think having a team of two people then obviously you are small fries. Try working someplace where you need SAN with RAID for hot standby failover of terabytes of data, all the while your networking needs to be triple-redundant so that trading activities continue regardless of what happens. Meanwhile you have linux servers at colos in Chicago and New York humming away and dumbass fratboys on Windows machines 'trading'.

That's what I'd call 'IT' if anything can be called 'IT' really. Whatever.

haha that gave me a good chuckle. How many wiki pages did you have to read to construct this post?

Actually, no. I'm not being passive-aggressive at all, I'm questioning his core premise. I do It and business consulting. I hear from both the executive team, the sales team, and the IT teams about what they need to do their job, and then find solutions to make them all work together.

Exactly. You are a hired-gun which means that while you might be the smartest person in the room you still have to bend over for the executives. It drives you crazy.

I know how it goes because I was there doing that myself for years.

Doesn't bother me in the least, I don't have to use the system in the end.

Plus, I would venture that part of what makes a good consultant is one that knows when to push back on the executive team. They're a client, not a customer. Therefore, they're not always right.

1) you dudes tell me i'm not locked into microsoft, i can make my own shell, i can go use linux

2) you tell me i'm not allowed to make my own shell/use linux at work for my own good

3) you tell me i'm not locked into anything because i can quit work and join the peace corps or something

maybe you guys live in a land where anyone can quit jobs until they find one that's paradise, but i live in reality. nothing's perfect. saying "if you don't like it, leave" is just the entitled man's excuse to avoid fixing a real problem (wonder how many of you vote GOP?).

You really are dead-set to blame Microsoft for issues that aren't Microsoft's aren't you? It's purely a function of your IT department. Are you aware that they could roll out a whole Linux environment, lock it down, and still give you just as limited an environment to work in, right? Would that still somehow be Microsoft's fault?

Nobody here is saying that you're not too locked down. We don't know your work environment. It could be that IT really have put down the screws. All we're saying is that it has nothing to do with Microsoft and Windows 8, and as such doesn't belong in this thread. Can't you see the fundamental difference between those two?

1) you dudes tell me i'm not locked into microsoft, i can make my own shell, i can go use linux

2) you tell me i'm not allowed to make my own shell/use linux at work for my own good

3) you tell me i'm not locked into anything because i can quit work and join the peace corps or something

maybe you guys live in a land where anyone can quit jobs until they find one that's paradise, but i live in reality. nothing's perfect. saying "if you don't like it, leave" is just the entitled man's excuse to avoid fixing a real problem (wonder how many of you vote GOP?).

You really are dead-set to blame Microsoft for issues that aren't Microsoft's aren't you? It's purely a function of your IT department. Are you aware that they could roll out a whole Linux environment, lock it down, and still give you just as limited an environment to work in, right? Would that still somehow be Microsoft's fault?

Nobody here is saying that you're not too locked down. We don't know your work environment. It could be that IT really have put down the screws. All we're saying is that it has nothing to do with Microsoft and Windows 8, and as such doesn't belong in this thread. Can't you see the fundamental difference between those two?

i'm here to voice my (very serious) concerns about Windows 8 and you keep pressing me for details about where i work.

i'm here to voice my (very serious) concerns about Windows 8 and you keep pressing me for details about where i work.

What concerns? you complain that the Windows 8 shell is too "dumb". We show you that it can be replaced, just like all other previous windows shells. something you claim to be comfortable with, skill-wise, as you use Linux and have done so there.

You then transition to complaining about using Win8 in work and IT locking it down. Which, at this point, Win8 is merely a symptom of your IT department's policies, not a root cause.

So please tell me where that dialog went off the rails and we can discuss your ongoing concerns about Windows 8 that are actually about Windows 8.

1) you dudes tell me i'm not locked into microsoft, i can make my own shell, i can go use linux

2) you tell me i'm not allowed to make my own shell/use linux at work for my own good

3) you tell me i'm not locked into anything because i can quit work and join the peace corps or something

maybe you guys live in a land where anyone can quit jobs until they find one that's paradise, but i live in reality. nothing's perfect. saying "if you don't like it, leave" is just the entitled man's excuse to avoid fixing a real problem (wonder how many of you vote GOP?).

You really are dead-set to blame Microsoft for issues that aren't Microsoft's aren't you? It's purely a function of your IT department. Are you aware that they could roll out a whole Linux environment, lock it down, and still give you just as limited an environment to work in, right? Would that still somehow be Microsoft's fault?

Nobody here is saying that you're not too locked down. We don't know your work environment. It could be that IT really have put down the screws. All we're saying is that it has nothing to do with Microsoft and Windows 8, and as such doesn't belong in this thread. Can't you see the fundamental difference between those two?

i'm here to voice my (very serious) concerns about Windows 8 and you keep pressing me for details about where i work.

Did the IT staff at your work take all your context menus away. Poor thing you

this is exactly my problem: they're trying to make windows 8 run on ALL DEVICES. desktops, tablets, phones, laptops, pacemakers... and while it works fine on a tablet, it continues microsoft's pattern of making the desktop experience worse and worse with every release. IT likes having one product across everything because management is easier, and i don't begrudge them for this. but windows 8 goes too far!

here's an obvious one: first we had the control panel. then we had to switch the control panel to "classic mode." now the control panel is split up into three parts. the new, third, "user-friendly" control panel only serves to trap you for five minutes before you realize it doesn't do what you want.... there are literally dozens of bafflingly idiotic design decisions like this. individually, none of them would be so bad, but they stack up right fast.

The only specific complaint I see here is that the control panel has changed over the years. It's true: Windows has changed. All the other operating systems have, too.

There's a handwave about "it doesn't do what you want" but again this is so general that we would have to be mind readers to know what specific thing you are actually complaining about.

I begin to wonder: when was the last time you actually used Windows? If you used it regularly, I'd think you would be able to voice more specific complaints.

netblaz wrote:

1) you dudes tell me i'm not locked into microsoft, i can make my own shell, i can go use linux

2) you tell me i'm not allowed to make my own shell/use linux at work for my own good

3) you tell me i'm not locked into anything because i can quit work and join the peace corps or something

1) Yes you can, on your own computer(s).2) As so many people have noted, the tools you use at work are chosen by your employer. Try working at a taxi company and demanding to drive a Porsche. I suspect you know how that would work out!3) Yes you can, if you are sufficiently motivated.

netblaz wrote:

i'm much happier/better compensated as a software engineer, except when i have to fight with IT.

here's an obvious one: first we had the control panel. then we had to switch the control panel to "classic mode." now the control panel is split up into three parts. the new, third, "user-friendly" control panel only serves to trap you for five minutes before you realize it doesn't do what you want.... there are literally dozens of bafflingly idiotic design decisions like this. individually, none of them would be so bad, but they stack up right fast.

The only specific complaint I see here is that the control panel has changed over the years. It's true: Windows has changed. All the other operating systems have, too.

There's a handwave about "it doesn't do what you want" but again this is so general that we would have to be mind readers to know what specific thing you are actually complaining about.

I begin to wonder: when was the last time you actually used Windows? If you used it regularly, I'd think you would be able to voice more specific complaints.

i'm not going to sit here and do a design review of windows. for that, i charge by the hour. so, instead, i gave you one very good, very specific case: the control panel. then i stated this was a typical windows problem, and that there were dozens of such problems. you dismiss my one specific example by essentially saying, "deal with it" and then demand i provide more specific examples. do you see my problem here?

i'm much happier/better compensated as a software engineer, except when i have to fight with IT.

What coding languages are you fluent in?

anything except functional languages like lisp and scheme. they interest me, though, and one of these days i'll get around to cracking the nut. but for now i'm working on german, which reminds me of java.

this is exactly my problem: they're trying to make windows 8 run on ALL DEVICES. desktops, tablets, phones, laptops, pacemakers... and while it works fine on a tablet, it continues microsoft's pattern of making the desktop experience worse and worse with every release. IT likes having one product across everything because management is easier, and i don't begrudge them for this. but windows 8 goes too far!

The thing is, the opposite is true for IT environments. Most CTO/CIOs are implementing some level of "bring your own device" rules when it comes to work in the office. At every client, I'm asked about how our software and support work on iPads, various smartphones, and even occasionally Android tablets. IT isn't moving toward tighter control on one platform everywhere, they're moving toward federating their service to whatever the user needs.

And System Preferences in Mac (Control Panel equivlaent) gets completely reshuffled, options disappear and combine every single release. Changing the Control Panel is nothing new for any OS.

The point I want to make is in the end, every single operating system changes things either minute or radical. We can again go back to the OS 9-OS X transition and see how rocky that was in its early years.

this is exactly my problem: they're trying to make windows 8 run on ALL DEVICES. desktops, tablets, phones, laptops, pacemakers... and while it works fine on a tablet, it continues microsoft's pattern of making the desktop experience worse and worse with every release. IT likes having one product across everything because management is easier, and i don't begrudge them for this. but windows 8 goes too far!

The thing is, the opposite is true for IT environments. Most CTO/CIOs are implementing some level of "bring your own device" rules when it comes to work in the office. At every client, I'm asked about how our software and support work on iPads, various smartphones, and even occasionally Android tablets. IT isn't moving toward tighter control on one platform everywhere, they're moving toward federating their service to whatever the user needs.

There are exceptions, but that's exactly what they are.

opposite of what? not sure what you mean, but i agree with you about the direction of IT. this is why the win8 one-platform-fits-all approach is a supremely bad move. the three-control-panels problem is what you get when you make an OS run on both a tablet and a desktop. why would i need to put my 40lb desktop into "airplane mode"? but the option is there, because tablets need the option.

that, and microsoft has a long history of delivering a horrendous end-user experience (argued about forever in previous posts here). that's why all the iPads are showing up: they're a lot more fun to use, and apple hasn't tried to make OSX into iOS or iOS into OSX.

Shut down every network connection at once with one easy-to-grab switch? I could think of past troubleshooting I've done where that would have been useful instead of having to try to disconnect Ethernet, find the wireless hardware switch or open Mobility Center, etc.

So yeah, "Airplane mode" has a use on desktop/laptop machines, but it would be used in troubleshooting more than it's namesake.

i'm not going to sit here and do a design review of windows. for that, i charge by the hour. so, instead, i gave you one very good, very specific case: the control panel. then i stated this was a typical windows problem, and that there were dozens of such problems. you dismiss my one specific example by essentially saying, "deal with it" and then demand i provide more specific examples. do you see my problem here?

I do see problems: you make these extremely general handwaves and you expect us to read your mind. (A coder should know what a good bug report looks like, and these are not good bug reports, man!) You misquote people to set them up for strawman arguments. You confuse your workplace's policies with those of Microsoft. You seemingly discard evidence of being able to write your own interface for Windows - then you again make the claim that it can't be done! You link the Apple CEO's 'toaster and refrigerator' comment as though this had anything at all to do with your original complaint that you cannot write your own interface for Windows. Can you write your own interface for OSX or iOS?

In short, I see an argument so vague and hazy and illogical that is impossible to engage with. So I'll stop trying to. And I'll suggest that others do the same.

(Small edits for clarity + added one point about 'write your own interface')

i'm not going to sit here and do a design review of windows. for that, i charge by the hour. so, instead, i gave you one very good, very specific case: the control panel. then i stated this was a typical windows problem, and that there were dozens of such problems. you dismiss my one specific example by essentially saying, "deal with it" and then demand i provide more specific examples. do you see my problem here?

I do see problems: you make these extremely general handwaves and you expect us to read your mind. (A coder should know what a good bug report looks like, and these are not good bug reports, man!) You misquote people to set them up for strawman arguments. You confuse your workplace's policies with those of Microsoft. You link Apple's 'toaster and refrigerator' comment as though this had anything at all to do with your original complaint that you cannot write your own interface for Windows. Can you write your own interface for OSX or iOS?

In short, I see an argument so vague and hazy and illogical that is impossible to engage with. So I'll stop trying to. And I'll suggest that others do the same.

you're extremely myopic. you latch onto one thing at a time and fail to realize you're going in circles. i will try to be more clear:

apple has recognized that a tablet is not a desktop and a desktop is not a tablet. microsoft hasn't, and the user experience suffers accordingly. this relates to how the microsoft user experience has never been particularly good in the first place. this all ties in to the "consumerization of IT," e.g. a move to more decentralized structures. if you're still not convinced, watch this:

Heh. You probably became aware of that video when I linked it in a different thread.

And we seem to have taken very different conclusions from it. I see the Win8 strategy as embracing the concepts Johnny laid out there, not rejecting them.

what i see is a future where we have as much computation as we need in whatever form we need, cheap. at that point, all that's left is user interface and integration. making everything ~Windows 8~ is good for integration, terrible for user interface. conversely, user experience shouldn't entirely win out either, because then nothing will integrate. i'm not against a universal platform, just a universal interface. android seems like a good compromise. because it's a compromise, it's messy. like linux.

the picture i arrive at in my head is one where it's all based on a common architecture (i.e. android, linux, etc.) and the GUI changes between devices. as this matures, it'll become more flexible. this is what i meant when i spoke of designing your own interface as part of the plan, and not just a kludge. people on smartphones would love it if they could design their own home screen via something brainless like Visual Basic, ya? no one's gotten there yet, apple included. but that's where it's going.

there's so much nonsense with patents and IP now... unless they sort that out right fast, linux will win.

this is what i meant when i spoke of designing your own interface as part of the plan, and not just a kludge. people on smartphones would love it if they could design their own home screen via something brainless like Visual Basic, ya? no one's gotten there yet, apple included. but that's where it's going.

If this is what you meant by designing your own interface, I'd have to disagree. I don't think it's going that direction at all, or that it ever will. What you're describing would only appeal to a tiny minority of smartphone power users. There's simply no commercial incentive for anyone to develop the framework to allow you to do this. VB isn't 'brainless' to the average user, it's an enigma. They'd have no clue what to do with it, except break their home screen and have to take it in for repair. Moving tiles around is about all that many users can handle.

I get that what you're talking about is an other-than-default, just-for-power-users feature, but it would require an awful lot of development work to allow that level of customization to the OS for the benefit of, what, 1% of users? Not worth it, from a business perspective.

As far as you not knowing 'IT' if you think having a team of two people then obviously you are small fries. Try working someplace where you need SAN with RAID for hot standby failover of terabytes of data, all the while your networking needs to be triple-redundant so that trading activities continue regardless of what happens. Meanwhile you have linux servers at colos in Chicago and New York humming away and dumbass fratboys on Windows machines 'trading'.

That's what I'd call 'IT' if anything can be called 'IT' really. Whatever.

Note what my current job is: Fortune 500, redundant data centers, petabytes of data, locations across the entire globe. I'm just an Exchange guy, though. What do I know?

this is what i meant when i spoke of designing your own interface as part of the plan, and not just a kludge. people on smartphones would love it if they could design their own home screen via something brainless like Visual Basic, ya? no one's gotten there yet, apple included. but that's where it's going.

If this is what you meant by designing your own interface, I'd have to disagree. I don't think it's going that direction at all, or that it ever will. What you're describing would only appeal to a tiny minority of smartphone power users. There's simply no commercial incentive for anyone to develop the framework to allow you to do this. VB isn't 'brainless' to the average user, it's an enigma. They'd have no clue what to do with it, except break their home screen and have to take it in for repair. Moving tiles around is about all that many users can handle.

I get that what you're talking about is an other-than-default, just-for-power-users feature, but it would require an awful lot of development work to allow that level of customization to the OS for the benefit of, what, 1% of users? Not worth it, from a business perspective.

i know it's hard to see now, and that's because there are a lot of roadblocks to overcome (not to mention a bunch of companies fighting for platform dominance!).

i'd argue there's a threshold of annoyance, past which a person gets fed up enough to ~do something about it~. subtract from that how difficult it is to do something about it. in the case of writing your own windows shell, for example, it's easier just to put up with the annoyances. but that doesn't mean i'm happy about it, just in a stalemate.

a tailored suit fits much better. but rich people don't tailor their own suits, do they? they pay someone else to do it. if you're an average person, sometimes mom or grandma is wily enough to do it for you, but it's still not a professional job. the only people that tailor suits are those that really enjoy the process (the tailor), or those pressed into service out of necessity (mom/grandma). many people simply go for a suit that's a bad fit (untailored, stock), if it's just for some vague acquaintance's wedding. if it's your best buddy's wedding, and you're the best man, you turn to mom/grandma. if it's YOUR wedding, you go to a tailor. but what if you could design the suit on the computer, then have it machine-made after being laser-scanned at a mall kiosk? no more tailors, except for rich traditionalists. average people would never wear an untailored suit again.

it starts with things like being able to customize widgets on your google homepage, or tiles on your winphone. eventually these come to be taken for granted, and people start to ask: why can't i change xyz? from there we plug in netblaz's threshold of annoyance formula. there's always going to be pressure for a better, tailored fit. that will never go away, ever, as nothing is perfect. this is counterbalanced with how much effort it is to customize something.

someday, perhaps, you'll be able to script your own google start screen in java. power users will take to it immediately. eventually, casual users will get a friend or relative to customize it for them. rich people will pay someone else to do it. the continual pressure will feed into better customization tools that lower the barrier for any average person. eventually, only the most lazy, rich people will hire someone else to do it. boom, there we are, everyone becomes a programmer, of sorts. weird but cool. but the underlying infrastructure will remain the domain of professionals. someone still has to design that mall kiosk, and keep it running + updated with the latest styles.

i linked this article earlier in the thread. apes build complicated nests, only to abandon them after a single use. how custom is that?

it's that drive (a lot of work just to make things a bit more comfy, temporarily) that launched civilization in the first place. forgive me for being optimistic, and presuming this trend towards ascension will continue.

For me a potential dealbreaker is the search screen. I don't like that it doesn't have an "All" category where Apps/Settings/Files are presented in search results. I'm fine if they default on "Apps" as long as I can switch it to "All" and it remembers my last choice. Seriously this Apple-fetish has to stop.

For me a potential dealbreaker is the search screen. I don't like that it doesn't have an "All" category where Apps/Settings/Files are presented in search results.

I don't really want an "All" as there could be hundreds of apps to search across, what I would like is if search defaulted to searching across your pinned search apps and merged the results in a general view, letting you drill down into a search for more details. That way you can tailor your searches to stuff you search regularly anyway.