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Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

The conclusion I was asking for was over the claim that they couldn't have manipulated "talented" ninjas. There's not a single piece of evidence to imply such a thing couldn't have been done by the few Uchiha's who possessed the Sharingan, who as repeated been mentioned, were considered the elite of the clan. They were considered geniuses as well, and seeing as how Orochimaru couldn't have taught Sasuke to use genjutsu and was surprised when Sasuke used one on him, the original point remains. Danzo claimed that if he and Sarutobi teamed up with the Anbu, they could end things with an ambush during Itachi's flashback.

I'm suggesting that Sarutobi wouldn't be foolish enough to start more trouble and risk the village over people who were purposely going against his orders and antagonizing the situation if he could make sure peace returned. Not negotiating would simply put them back in the same position as being, risking civil war and bloodshed. I don't see why the peaceful Sarutobi wouldn't choose that option instead of inciting more bloodshed, when nothing about his character is the type to make such a risk over the village. And pointed out before, the Uchiha clan had no need to attempt to displace him from power because he wasn't the problem. He was the only one of the council not discriminating against them. How weren't Danzo's activities comparable? He was literally sacrificing Konoha ninjas for his own selfish goals, and going behind Sarutobi's back at it.

Sasuke was already a wanted criminal, killing Danzo had nothing to do with that. Neither Kakashi or anyone else showed any sort of reaction to his death and Root's command was taken over.

And that's the point, the only Uchiha's who could awaken the Sharingan were the elites, those who were exceptional and geniuses. The majority of Uchiha's were and thus couldn't have achieved it. I'm arguing against the belief that Obito was anymore exception then the elites of the clan. We saw Obito, and he was pretty normal before. He wasn't like Itachi or even Sasuke when young, so I'm failing to see the reason for this idea that he's somehow more exceptional then those in the police force.

And for the record, having an hax MS is more luck then skill, Hashirama's cells don't make one exceptional as shown by Yamato and the Zetsus, and being tutored by an exceptional ninja wouldn't put you on the same level as shown by Sakura and Naruto, neither of which were at their teachers level after training. Obito only did so well against Minato because of Kamui, without it he's not that great of a fighter as we've seen.

At this point I'm not sure you're serious. You vehemently question my point that there were few Uchiha possessing the Sharingan, and then after some drawn out posts admit that the Uchiha had few Sharingan users. Seriously? And I'm not sure where you're getting this background information on the 'elite of the Uchiha', but for what you're attributing to them they were sure wiped out quite easily. And my point about comparing the members of the Uchiha Clan to Sasuke remains; he is a genius under the tutelage of another genius. Should I repeat myself; the ambush technique was considered because it would be more effective, and grant a quick and more decisive win. The Uchiha intended to do the same; why would anyone surrender the element of surprise?

So Sarutobi would just let some clan, who he would undoubtedly be capable of wiping out, remain after assassinating his friends, and members of Konoha's council. I disagree. As long as the Uchiha remained there would be the risk of further conflict. Also, what would the Uchiha be negotiating for? You've suggested that their targets would be the council members alone. What would they have achieved? How would their position have changed? In reality, what you're suggesting isn't even a coup. As for the comparisons between Danzo and the Uchiha, they're not the same and you have to be aware of that. A direct attack on Konoha, and its leadership, is far different from Danzo's machinations.

So yes, most Uchiha lacked Sharingan. It's good to see that at least you've made it this far. Obito before wasn't exceptional, but Obito before wasn't able to manipulate anyone, so we're obviously considering events after that would make him exceptional. A Hax MS makes him exceptional, regardless of how he achieved it. And if you're at the point that you're arguing that Hashirama's cells don't make one exceptional, you should probably just give up. And receiving tutelage from one of the most powerful, and talented, shinobi to ever exist makes you exceptional. How could you possibly suggest that Obito isn't exceptional? I can't believe that I'm even arguing about this.

Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

Originally Posted by shahdan

Do you actually know the number of people who had Sharingan? It makes no sense to even suggest that Fugaku was planning an entire coup when he was short on Sharingan. Itachi was already under Elders influence. His opinions were either biased or he was gauging their power with his level. Let's face it, the guy over-whelmed three Jounins at the mere age of 19. He was well-beyond the league of all the jounins at Konoha.

Itachi cast a fairly decent Genjutsu with 3T on Orochimaru, and so did Sasuke during his fight with Deidara. Not only that, this 'weakling logic' doesn't fit with these scans:

No where in this entire conversation has she talked about A higher Sharingan form, predominately Mangekyo or Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. This goes to show that you cannot slight Sharingan genjutsu, just because of Itachi, when this woman has a considerable battle experience. She considered Sharingan's genjutsu to
be quite overwhelming.

You only want to believe this, as you are set on this scenario without taking other factual information into consideration. Why did Kishimoto employ the word 'coup' here, when he could have used a violent incursion, and coerced takeover etc? Even an onslaught would have been a decent choice. Second is Itachi. He did report all the happenings taking place in root division, excluding his own 'double agent' status. The coup was planned on these reports. Uchiha would have exercised this plan by creating a diversion and over-whelming The Hokage, and putting him in house arrest along with the Elders. This is the way most coups take place.

How would it escalate? Not a single Jounin could do anything when Danzo took the seat. Sure the leader made the decision, but did any Jounin interfere when all of them considered him completely unfit for the post? It goes to show that the matter isn't a 'chicken and egg' scenario as you make it sound like, where a single attempt at taking over the seat would result in mass-murder on both sides. There is nothing to suggest this, so I am not going to accept this logic.

That is an illogical point. Uchiha were well-loved by people as well. Now you are suggesting that somehow, a civil war will break out? I hardly doubt it. As long as people get security and support from the new Hokage, they would never oppose whoever takes seat. They didn't seem to mind that not a single anbu, along with Danzo himself aided against pein, and yet he took the seat anyway? I never saw a single civilian apposing him.

So only because you assume Fugaku was smart you believe he had an army of Sharingan-users.
Problems with this are:
-Since the beginning, Sasuke said the Sharingan was something only a small part of his clan awakened.
-Itachi, Orochimaru, Danzou and Obito said plenty of times how Uchihas became arrogant.
The coup is a perfect example of that, kinda like the Kaguyas, remember?

For the genjutsu to be overwhelming, the Uchiha would need to be 1 on 1 and follow the one controlled around like a puppy.
Only someone with Itachi's talent could control people from a distance, and believe it or not only Madara and Shisui have comparable Genjutsu feats with Itachi

Wiki's definition of a coup.
If you believe Uchihas could succeed in a coup when the ANBU and the Hokage were alerted of that, you are, no offence, delusional.
Do you really think that, when the coup failed, that Fugaku would've surrended and be imprisoned like the rest of his clan?
He would fight and get slaughtered. Saying "the coup could be successfull" doesn't mean it would automatically be successfull, nor that it wouldn't involve violence, as we don't know the details of it.

Danzou planned to use Mifune's approval as the leader of the Alliance to get the Jounin approval.

Well loved doesn't mean the people would accept Uchihas usurping the Hokage, expecially when the Hokage was just as loved.
And no one opposed Danzou because:
-the village was being rebuilt, and people surely had other things in their head.
-according to what was the official informations, Danzou retired and Root was disbanded by Hiruzen.
-his nomination wasn't official yet, since the Jounins still opposed him apparently. He was the candidate the Daimyo preferred

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

1) The few 2) Everyone is weak compared to Itachi. According to Danzo, it would have taken him, Sarutobi, and the Anbu ambushing them to succeed, so they clearly weren't that weak.
3) I don't see how Part 1 Sasuke shows anything. He didn't complete his Sharingan until the very end and after a few years of training, became incredibly skilled in genjutsu, even though he couldn't have been "trained" in it by Orochimaru. We were told that genjutsu abilities were inherent to the Sharingan, which was the main reason it was so feared.
4) Breaking a Sharingan genjutsu is situational, and what was said was that someone of Itachi's level could control a person over a long distances. Nothing making close range control impossible.

2) Danzou meant ANBU, himself and Hiruzen could kill them all without major losses Also, according to Danzou, in a fight even with Itachi on the Uchiha's side they would be annihilated, and Itachi didn't bother to correct him, meaning he was right
Obito said so as well. No matter how, Uchihas would get annihilated.
3) Where it is said a 2-tomoe Sharingan can't cast genjutsus? Even if its an automatic power, one needs to practice with it, and if the Uchiha sucks at genjutsu he wouldn't be able to cast one.
Give a Sharingan to Naruto and let's see what happens

Quote:

The point was that the violence would be pretty limited.

Why?
Ask any militar how "treason" is pretty limited
Betrayal, in a society made of soldiers, is punished with death

Quote:

The Hokage wasn't the issue and wouldn't have been needed to be removed for their coup to work. Danzo and the council were the ones who needed to be removed to return to their previously position, becasue at least with danzo, the people knew he was a tyrant and likely wouldn't have cared. The other villages having spies doesn't change we know the village being devastated doesn't automatically entail it being invaded, as we have seen three times already. Five if you count Sunagakure too losing two Kazekages.

Already showed you that the scan about "Uchihas wanting to regain political power" was an error in translation
They wanted the Hokage seat

Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

All this discussion of the coup d'etat is well and good and interesting thinking about what would've actually happened if it did take place. But aren't we getting away from the actual topic? The introducing post of the thread already said:

Originally Posted by so6pww

The context is that we assume that Tobirama is saying the truth. Here I summarized key point in the text from what Tobirama said.

1. Tobirama knew the Uchiha's emotional problem. He even found the scientific explanation of the problem.

2. Tobirama claimed that he tried to channel their power into something that could benefit Konoha.

3. Tobirama claimed also that it seems that the Uchiha used their power to destroy one another.

4. When speaking of Itachi's use of his power, he add that they did the same for the village (... for the sake of the village no less...). Then he concluded that the power served at least for the greater good.

If we're to adhere to these presumptions, it can't be argued that Tobirama is racist (point one in the above list). It can't be argued that Tobirama discriminated or tried to oppress the Uchiha (point two in the list). It's a fact mentioned by both Tobirama, Itachi and Tobi that the Uchiha is a cursed clan (point three). There's an agreement that the coup was stopped for the greater good of the village (point four of the above list).

So why get into the weeds of debating minute details of an event that never took place in the manga when the actual topic is why people "curse Tobirama and treat him to be a racist segregationist" based on one page of the manga?

Originally Posted by so6pww

Yes, come and discuss Tobirama's decision concerning the Uchiha. I think that this discussion need to be done because many people have long time cursed him and treat him to be a racist segregationist. The basis for this discussion is the following screen from 619.

The only argument I see is.... Tobirama is the direct cause of the Uchiha planning a coup (then goes off to an off-topic discussion on how the coup would've taken place if x was the case and y happened) No one seems to want to address why they blame Tobirama for the Uchiha discrimination when their isolation didn't even take place during his lifetime.

After 19 pages of posts I'm starting to think its easier to catch a squirrel in the back yard with bare hands than to extract an answer to this out of the people who keep hating on Tobirama.

Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

Originally Posted by marshall313

No. Sarutobi wants to offer a truce because their comrades. So it wasn't that strange. Hiruzen feel that killing each other isn't a good idea at all, the uchiha is part of konoha. And hiruzen feel that he must protect the uchiha and the konoha as their hokage.

You really think Sarutobi would offer a truce to people planning on slaughtering everyone? That would be like Sarutobi offering a truce to Orochimaru even though he murdered hundreds, including children, all because they were student and teacher. You really think that Sarutobi is that foolish of a leader? It's one thing to protect regular citizens and it's another to protect murders.

Originally Posted by marshall313

And itachi being blackmailed? Really? I thought itachi don't have any choice. Fight together with his clan and be killed or fght along side the konoha and he can save his brother.
It's not a blackmail i guess but rather a choices. A choice to save sasuke.

Um, Danzo threatening to allow Sasuke to be killed unless Itachi does what he say is the very definition of blackmail.

Originally Posted by marshall313

The thing is, itachi accepted that mission with open arms, not just to save sasuke or to protect the konoha. But rather to save his clan's pride and name from their foolish idea.

When was Itachi shown accepting it with open arms? We have been told several times that Itachi agonized over the decision and felt horrible for doing it. If Itachi had accepted it with open arms, he wouldn't have needed Danzo to threaten him into it.

Originally Posted by Impossibility

At this point I'm not sure you're serious. You vehemently question my point that there were few Uchiha possessing the Sharingan, and then after some drawn out posts admit that the Uchiha had few Sharingan users. Seriously? And I'm not sure where you're getting this background information on the 'elite of the Uchiha', but for what you're attributing to them they were sure wiped out quite easily. And my point about comparing the members of the Uchiha Clan to Sasuke remains; he is a genius under the tutelage of another genius. Should I repeat myself; the ambush technique was considered because it would be more effective, and grant a quick and more decisive win. The Uchiha intended to do the same; why would anyone surrender the element of surprise?

When did I question the number of Sharingan users? I acknowledge several time before there was only a few. The fact that you seem to be ignoring is that the handful who were said to have awaken the Sharingan were said to have been the elite members of the clan, those of the police force. Only the strongest of the Uchiha's in Konoha had it, and they were considered geniuses. We were told this several times. So the comparison works, especially when, as mentioned, Orochimaru would have had nothing to do with Sasuke's genjutsu skill.

And being wiped out by Itachi and Obito is hardly being wiped out easily, especially when it happen at night. Itachi has been shown superior to basically everyone. And we can't even compare his strength to Fugaku given that his parents didn't even put up a fight. How did the Uchiha's intend the same way? They knew Konoha knew of the coup.

Originally Posted by Impossibility

So Sarutobi would just let some clan, who he would undoubtedly be capable of wiping out, remain after assassinating his friends, and members of Konoha's council. I disagree. As long as the Uchiha remained there would be the risk of further conflict. Also, what would the Uchiha be negotiating for? You've suggested that their targets would be the council members alone. What would they have achieved? How would their position have changed? In reality, what you're suggesting isn't even a coup. As for the comparisons between Danzo and the Uchiha, they're not the same and you have to be aware of that. A direct attack on Konoha, and its leadership, is far different from Danzo's machinations.

What other option would there have been, start the very war he didn't want in the first place? You're basically saying that Sarutobi would put his own desires over protecting the village. Why would there have been a risk of conflict when the only reason there was any conflict between the two was because of the council's action. The whole point is that the Uchiha's beef was with the council segregating and discriminating against them. That's what they were fighting against. They had no beef with the rest of Konoha.

How aren't they the same? Danzo's machinations endangered the village just as much any possible coup. Heck, his actions have been responsible for the village being assaulted by Pain and it was implied that he was behind Orochimaru's attack too. Danzo has caused just as much deaths as they would have possibly done.

Originally Posted by Impossibility

So yes, most Uchiha lacked Sharingan. It's good to see that at least you've made it this far. Obito before wasn't exceptional, but Obito before wasn't able to manipulate anyone, so we're obviously considering events after that would make him exceptional. A Hax MS makes him exceptional, regardless of how he achieved it. And if you're at the point that you're arguing that Hashirama's cells don't make one exceptional, you should probably just give up. And receiving tutelage from one of the most powerful, and talented, shinobi to ever exist makes you exceptional. How could you possibly suggest that Obito isn't exceptional? I can't believe that I'm even arguing about this.

First, most Uchiha's wouldn't need the Sharingan for the few who did to do what was needed. Secondly, the very fact that Obito wasn't originally exception and became so in time would be how it normally happens. Thirdly, a hax technique does not make one exceptional. There's quite a few examples of that fact, like those three who have Minato's Hiraishin or Konohamaru with the Rasengan. Fourth, both Yamato and Danzo had Hashirama's cells and were hardly exceptional. Heck, the Zetsus are made from Hashirama's cells, would you call them exceptional? And last, no. The teacher being powerful does not translate to the student being powerful. By that logic, Obito should have already been exception due to being Minato's student. Madara is nearly an unstoppable juggernaut capable of taking on five Kages at once, whereas Obito's only saving grace is Kamui and without it he can barely handle Danzo's subordinates without being injured. Madara is clearly on a whole 'nother level.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

So only because you assume Fugaku was smart you believe he had an army of Sharingan-users.
Problems with this are:
-Since the beginning, Sasuke said the Sharingan was something only a small part of his clan awakened.
-Itachi, Orochimaru, Danzou and Obito said plenty of times how Uchihas became arrogant.
The coup is a perfect example of that, kinda like the Kaguyas, remember?

For the genjutsu to be overwhelming, the Uchiha would need to be 1 on 1 and follow the one controlled around like a puppy.
Only someone with Itachi's talent could control people from a distance, and believe it or not only Madara and Shisui have comparable Genjutsu feats with Itachi

Between Danzo's arm and Obito's room of eyes, there had to have been quite a few who possessed the Sharingan. The Uchiha clan was nothing like the Kaguya clan.

And that's not how genjutsu would work. We've seen that a single one can catch multiple targets, and one wouldn't likely have to follow the victim around. Nor would they really have had a need to control people over an entire country. Also, you're missing the other genjutsu option, knocking people out to make it easier to kill/take down.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

2) Danzou meant ANBU, himself and Hiruzen could kill them all without major losses Also, according to Danzou, in a fight even with Itachi on the Uchiha's side they would be annihilated, and Itachi didn't bother to correct him, meaning he was right
Obito said so as well. No matter how, Uchihas would get annihilated.
3) Where it is said a 2-tomoe Sharingan can't cast genjutsus? Even if its an automatic power, one needs to practice with it, and if the Uchiha sucks at genjutsu he wouldn't be able to cast one.
Give a Sharingan to Naruto and let's see what happens

Somehow missed messing up on number one, which was that the few were considered the very best of the clan.

2) Anyway, It was still them having to ambush the clan. And Danzo spoke of once they tried, which is not the same as annihilating them regardless, otherwise the threat they pose would have been meaningless. Itachi didn't bother because it was obvious that he wouldn't have attacked the village. We all know that if Itachi actually wanted to, he could have defeated the village single-handedly. Heck, from what we've seen of Konoha's forces, they wouldn't have stood a chance. They could barely handle an invasion of 200 ninjas, or an attack from six "powerful" ninjas. The forces from Ame and Iwa were shown superior. Konoha's only saving grace was a few key ninjas. When did Obito say the clan would have been annihilated?

3) Didn't say that it was tied to the number of tomoe, but it was shown that having all three tomoes completed it's power. And the point was that there was nothing to suggest that the handful of Sharingan users in the Uchiha clan lacked said skills with genjutsu. Claiming that someone who was considered elite by everyone else would suck makes little sense.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Why?
Ask any militar how "treason" is pretty limited
Betrayal, in a society made of soldiers, is punished with death

Yeah, and seeing as the Uchiha clan was betrayed first by the higher ups...

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Already showed you that the scan about "Uchihas wanting to regain political power" was an error in translation
They wanted the Hokage seat

So Sarutobi was gonna casually talk to people who were plotting mass murder and wanted his seat? Yeah... no. Wanting political power still doesn't equal wanting to be Hokage and there's nothing to suggest as such. Like I responded before, the context remains the same. Sarutobi being willing to compromise and Itachi having to be forced into actually dealing with them, along with Fugaku willingly allowing their plot to fail without fighting back, all suggest that the goal of the coup was not the bloody power grab people are trying to make it.

Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

The word 'coup' is used because it is appropriate, regardless of the means. A coerced takeover is a coup, a violent incursion could be a coup. Is there a point there somewhere?

A Jounin could do something, they simply chose not to. Why? Probably because he was chosen by the Daimyo, and the ruling council. The shinobi might also have considered the potential instability that might have resulted. Also, Danzo didn't take over the seat over the Hokage, he was granted the seat after the incapacitation of his predecessor. A coup is something entirely different. You're once again attempting to compare things that aren't even remotely comparable.

The people respected the Uchiha, there is nothing to suggest that they would simply accept the Uchiha taking over by force. The Sarutobi clans, and their allies, would undoubtedly take action. Root would undoubtedly respond. And other factions would likely do the same. And once again, Danzo's appointment to an open post is entirely different from the Uchiha vacating the post by force and attempting to then occupy the post themselves. You're argument is simply illogical.

The coup was planned for over-throwing the government, and most probably initiating an act of rebellion in order to gain acceptance for demands. How many Sarutobi clan members do you know of? Were they enough to take on about hundred plus group of people in combat, or declare a small onslaught on Uchiha clan following the arrests? Itachi and Shisui were already a part of root division. What is there to suggest there there weren't more uchiha clan members who made up the anbu division?

The ruling council never suggested Danzo, it was just the Daimyo who was quickly convinced by Danzo's heart-felt speech. The point is Jounin rebellion here, don't twist words and crux of argumentation to suit your needs. If they could on grounds that they were knowledgeable about Danzo's shady political division, which could jeopardize Konoha in a number of unforeseen ways, just proves that this whole retaliation is clearly stretched and is a common hogwash at best.

Why would they not accept their government? I just gave you an example of Danzo presiding over Tsunade. The root division never intervened during Pein attack but there is not a single manga page to suggest that his position was unwelcome on these grounds amongst all the jounin rank officials. In fact we only know about the opinion of about ten people at best. He still became the incumbent Hokage by selection through a single individual. If people and ninjas can accept the rule of an individual who himself along with his underlings did nothing to curb the war waged by pein, I cannot see how an internal war will break out just because Uchiha clan take over, when they actually had people's trust. Yes, clearly I am being completely illogical. Must be a hard acquired taste; your justifications, of course.

P.s: We are talking about Ninjas here. Try to apply the word 'coup' in the required context. It isn't so terribly hard, I assure you.

So only because you assume Fugaku was smart you believe he had an army of Sharingan-users.
Problems with this are:
-Since the beginning, Sasuke said the Sharingan was something only a small part of his clan awakened.
-Itachi, Orochimaru, Danzou and Obito said plenty of times how Uchihas became arrogant.
The coup is a perfect example of that, kinda like the Kaguyas, remember?

For the genjutsu to be overwhelming, the Uchiha would need to be 1 on 1 and follow the one controlled around like a puppy.
Only someone with Itachi's talent could control people from a distance, and believe it or not only Madara and Shisui have comparable Genjutsu feats with Itachi

Wiki's definition of a coup.
If you believe Uchihas could succeed in a coup when the ANBU and the Hokage were alerted of that, you are, no offence, delusional.
Do you really think that, when the coup failed, that Fugaku would've surrended and be imprisoned like the rest of his clan?
He would fight and get slaughtered. Saying "the coup could be successfull" doesn't mean it would automatically be successfull, nor that it wouldn't involve violence, as we don't know the details of it.

Danzou planned to use Mifune's approval as the leader of the Alliance to get the Jounin approval.

Well loved doesn't mean the people would accept Uchihas usurping the Hokage, expecially when the Hokage was just as loved.
And no one opposed Danzou because:
-the village was being rebuilt, and people surely had other things in their head.
-according to what was the official informations, Danzou retired and Root was disbanded by Hiruzen.
-his nomination wasn't official yet, since the Jounins still opposed him apparently. He was the candidate the Daimyo preferred

I think you need a few comprehension lessons, no offense intended. Where have I mentioned that Fugaku had an army of Sharingan users? A rightful arrogance, shared by Senju clan as well? I hardly see this point as relevant in the discussion.

Dear god, please show me a single manga page where it's mentioned that Itachi's 3T Sharingan is miles ahead of any other Uchiha having the same ocular ability. Where are you pulling this out from? When another battle-field veteran - Chiyo - was not even taking the likes of Madara into consideration and didn't even know about Itach's existence, let alone acknowledge his genjutsu feats? The strategies are still there. The manga proves that two people are needed to break a single genjutsu. You cannot refute it with your self-made Itachi this and that pointers. Let's not even forget that Itachi's genjutsu feats are mostly aligned with Mangekyo Sharingan's moon genjustu. That's grasping at straws, and a blatantly obvious one at that.

Are you seriously accusing me of being Delusional, when I am completely taking Itachi and Shisui's ultime betrayal off the topic here? How hard is it to gather that logic from my posts? Seriously? Regardless of Itachi's double status as a spy, he could still have sided with the Uchiha clan after he obtained MS following Shisui's suicide, as he was passing information on both ends. In fact, Shisui could have used his superior genjutsu to compel the likes of Daimyo to declare Fugaku as Hokage, elder's (along with Danzo's) execution, and Hokage's dismissal from the seat. Remember, his existence was probably only known to Danzo as a second spy, not to the hokage. And after the said course of events, no one would have known the intricate set-up of the plan was put into action through Shisui's mind-control.

Is there any scan to suggest that the news concerning his appointment as the Hokage didn't reach to anyone, when all ninjas have families etc? Also, I wouldn't use wikipedia as my source. My father is a military veteran of thirty years, and coup is a pre-planned sudden attack. Even the manga's story aligns well with this, as espionage endeavours were always taking place to gather Intel on other nations. All of those espionage events were not on-the-spot affairs, but carefully planned military actions, raids etc.

Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Between Danzo's arm and Obito's room of eyes, there had to have been quite a few who possessed the Sharingan. The Uchiha clan was nothing like the Kaguya clan.

And that's not how genjutsu would work. We've seen that a single one can catch multiple targets, and one wouldn't likely have to follow the victim around. Nor would they really have had a need to control people over an entire country. Also, you're missing the other genjutsu option, knocking people out to make it easier to kill/take down.

Between Obito and Danzou they would have stocked, like, 50 sharingans, which means around 25 people.
Hardly a force that can match an army, me thinks, even if it was recovering from the Kyuubi attack.

In battle I have no issue against Sharingan, I'm talking about controlling persons remotely, and Shikaku clearly said that only the likes of Itachi could do it.
And we all know Itachi is above the Uchihas of that time

Quote:

Somehow missed messing up on number one, which was that the few were considered the very best of the clan.

2) Anyway, It was still them having to ambush the clan. And Danzo spoke of once they tried, which is not the same as annihilating them regardless, otherwise the threat they pose would have been meaningless. Itachi didn't bother because it was obvious that he wouldn't have attacked the village. We all know that if Itachi actually wanted to, he could have defeated the village single-handedly. Heck, from what we've seen of Konoha's forces, they wouldn't have stood a chance. They could barely handle an invasion of 200 ninjas, or an attack from six "powerful" ninjas. The forces from Ame and Iwa were shown superior. Konoha's only saving grace was a few key ninjas. When did Obito say the clan would have been annihilated?

3) Didn't say that it was tied to the number of tomoe, but it was shown that having all three tomoes completed it's power. And the point was that there was nothing to suggest that the handful of Sharingan users in the Uchiha clan lacked said skills with genjutsu. Claiming that someone who was considered elite by everyone else would suck makes little sense.

They were considered the best because they had the Sharingan, that and only that

As for point number 2, the threat was real because, without a sneak attack, it would be open battle, and, having knowledge of key parts of the village ( other than being a powerful clan, if not the most powerful one in Konoha ) they would do massive damage.
As for Obito telling that, I'm sure he did in his history lesson with Sasuke

Sharingan doesn't have only genjutsu, actually its most renowed power in part 1 was its copying ability, which meant Uchihas were mostly ninjutsu monsters.

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Yeah, and seeing as the Uchiha clan was betrayed first by the higher ups...

Using a bad action to fight another bad action doesn't make it any better imo

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So Sarutobi was gonna casually talk to people who were plotting mass murder and wanted his seat? Yeah... no. Wanting political power still doesn't equal wanting to be Hokage and there's nothing to suggest as such. Like I responded before, the context remains the same. Sarutobi being willing to compromise and Itachi having to be forced into actually dealing with them, along with Fugaku willingly allowing their plot to fail without fighting back, all suggest that the goal of the coup was not the bloody power grab people are trying to make it.

See this week's chapter, Tobirama was all for killing Sasuke before he could try to destroy Konoha, while Hashirama wanted to talk so he could try to convince Sasuke.
Hiruzen is the same, as we all know.

As for the coup, when Fugaku said he would be willingly to stop the coup?
Also it was a power grab, Kishi just shows how ninja's society lighted the Uchiha curse again. Its also obvious the coup was painted so for the plot, since, if Fugaku waited just some years, Itachi would've been made surely Hokage.
He was known and praised by way too many people, and Hiruzen ( and Danzou as well ) had an enormous amount of respect for him.
I'm sure they would've accepted him regardless of their supposed bigotry towards the Uchihas

Originally Posted by shahdan

TI think you need a few comprehension lessons, no offense intended. Where have I mentioned that Fugaku had an army of Sharingan users? A rightful arrogance, shared by Senju clan as well? I hardly see this point as relevant in the discussion.

Dear god, please show me a single manga page where it's mentioned that Itachi's 3T Sharingan is miles ahead of any other Uchiha having the same ocular ability. Where are you pulling this out from? When another battle-field veteran - Chiyo - was not even taking the likes of Madara into consideration and didn't even know about Itach's existence, let alone acknowledge his genjutsu feats? The strategies are still there. The manga proves that two people are needed to break a single genjutsu. You cannot refute it with your self-made Itachi this and that pointers. Let's not even forget that Itachi's genjutsu feats are mostly aligned with Mangekyo Sharingan's moon genjustu. That's grasping at straws, and a blatantly obvious one at that.

Are you seriously accusing me of being Delusional, when I am completely taking Itachi and Shisui's ultime betrayal off the topic here? How hard is it to gather that logic from my posts? Seriously? Regardless of Itachi's double status as a spy, he could still have sided with the Uchiha clan after he obtained MS following Shisui's suicide, as he was passing information on both ends. In fact, Shisui could have used his superior genjutsu to compel the likes of Daimyo to declare Fugaku as Hokage, elder's (along with Danzo's) execution, and Hokage's dismissal from the seat. Remember, his existence was probably only known to Danzo as a second spy, not to the hokage. And after the said course of events, no one would have known the intricate set-up of the plan was put into action through Shisui's mind-control.

Is there any scan to suggest that the news concerning his appointment as the Hokage didn't reach to anyone, when all ninjas have families etc? Also, I wouldn't use wikipedia as my source. My father is a military veteran of thirty years, and coup is a pre-planned sudden attack. Even the manga's story aligns well with this, as espionage endeavours were always taking place to gather Intel on other nations. All of those espionage events were not on-the-spot affairs, but carefully planned military actions, raids etc.

None taken

I dunno, feats? Hype? The fact that, at 13 years old, Itachi was the strongest of his clan? The fact that he's hailed as one of the greatest genjutsu user in the manga? The fact that, at HQ, Shikaku specifically told only the likes of Itachi could control people with a genjutsu from the distance?
Or the entire convo during the Kabuto fight?
Itachi is not the normal Uchiha, he's an elite above the elite, probably the only one that could've challenged the likes of Madara should the plot not demand him to die.

I'm calling you delusional if you think that the Uchihas could've succeded in their coup when the Hokage and the ANBU already knew about it

I'm not contesting your definition of a coup, I'm contesting the fact that it isn't all daisies and sunshines:
a failed coup almost always results in a civil war, and the manga says as much.
The whole village would rise to fight Uchihas once they would catch wind of the fact they attempted to usurp the Hokage, and this would result in what Danzou, Itachi and Obito claimed

Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

I dunno, feats? Hype? The fact that, at 13 years old, Itachi was the strongest of his clan? The fact that he's hailed as one of the greatest genjutsu user in the manga? The fact that, at HQ, Shikaku specifically told only the likes of Itachi could control people with a genjutsu from the distance?
Or the entire convo during the Kabuto fight?
Itachi is not the normal Uchiha, he's an elite above the elite, probably the only one that could've challenged the likes of Madara should the plot not demand him to die.

I'm calling you delusional if you think that the Uchihas could've succeded in their coup when the Hokage and the ANBU already knew about it

I'm not contesting your definition of a coup, I'm contesting the fact that it isn't all daisies and sunshines:
a failed coup almost always results in a civil war, and the manga says as much.
The whole village would rise to fight Uchihas once they would catch wind of the fact they attempted to usurp the Hokage, and this would result in what Danzou, Itachi and Obito claimed

Itachi's genjutsu skills are - as I mentioned earlier - mostly aligned with MS. Again you are completely disproving the scans I posted for your own convenience. Keep ignoring them, but they don't alter the author's god-hand's on 3T Genjtsu. Your opinions on Itachi practically mean nothing here or for the progression of this discussion. But be my guest if you want to run around in circles, gushing irrelevant praise.

I think the delusional sentiment applies to you more, if you believe that the coup would have been a complete failure had the element of 'Surprise' still existed. Nawaz Sharif knew about Pervaiz Musharraf's coup plans, but the strategic element of lack of information gave the latter an advantage. He ousted a leader through a simple house arrest through pre-emption, when he had the whole police force and many Lieutenant generals supporting him. The complete dearth of information on the plan's execution date, give Uchiha clan a strategic advantage. No one is glossing over coup with sun-shine from Disany's *insert random crap name here*. That's entirely your own fault.

We don't know whether the whole anbu division was even aware of he coup. It's quite possible that only the spies close to Danzo or the ones employed to spy on the Uchiha clan were knowledgeable. What's to say that Uchiha clan members were not a part of root division like Itachi and Shisui?

Why would the whole village rise to oppose them? Manga hasn't delineated anything along these lines, they were just far-fetched opinions to expedite the massacre, and your opinions are also of the same nature; completely ill-founded. Also, what makes you think that another clan wouldn't have welcomed this? The Hyuga clan's branch family could have easily sided with the Uchiha clan, or supported them as well, after they received nothing but cold-shoulder treatment from the likes of the much-loved-by-all Hizuren.

Yes, because Itachi was always right. lol His admissions of being a complete failure, anyone?

Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

Between Obito and Danzou they would have stocked, like, 50 sharingans, which means around 25 people.
Hardly a force that can match an army, me thinks, even if it was recovering from the Kyuubi attack.

In battle I have no issue against Sharingan, I'm talking about controlling persons remotely, and Shikaku clearly said that only the likes of Itachi could do it.
And we all know Itachi is above the Uchihas of that time

25? Obito had at least 104 eyes, that means at least 52 Uchiha's with Sharingans. Along with Danzo's, that 57. That a reasonable force, considering Konoha's army was shown as crap. That's not even mentioning that the rest of the regular Uchiha's. Pretty good, especially when it's canonical that to fight a Sharingan required two verses one against the to counter their genjutsu ability.

Shikaku said that only someone like Itachi (which didn't disclude any other Sharingan users actually) could control people outside the range of their sensors, which covered several nations. So even if there was no users in Konoha who could achieve that feat, they wouldn't have to for this discussion.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

They were considered the best because they had the Sharingan, that and only that

As for point number 2, the threat was real because, without a sneak attack, it would be open battle, and, having knowledge of key parts of the village ( other than being a powerful clan, if not the most powerful one in Konoha ) they would do massive damage.
As for Obito telling that, I'm sure he did in his history lesson with Sasuke

Sharingan doesn't have only genjutsu, actually its most renowed power in part 1 was its copying ability, which meant Uchihas were mostly ninjutsu monsters.

The strength of the regular clan members was notorious, and simply possessing the Sharingan as not some instant enhancement of power. Sasuke as repeatedly shown that one needs the skills to back up it's usage.

They had forewarning and the coup wasn't even ready to go yet. Konoha's side had multiple advantages over the clan and still believed an ambush was needed to succeed. Obito didn't mention anything about them being annihilated. The copying ability didn't just apply to using ninjutsu, it was also the source of their prediction ability and that applied pretty much regardless of opponent. Anyway, the Sharingan's genjutsu ability was shown alongside the copying ability in it's first appearance, Kakashi warned Asuma and Kurenai about it before he was even made aware of Tsukuyomi, and Chiyo went on to tell us in Part Two how against a Sharingan user, common tactics were to run if alone and only fight if you had a teammate. The copying ninjutsu skill actually doesn't appear to have been used all that much by. None of the Uchiha's we've seen have really made use of it.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Using a bad action to fight another bad action doesn't make it any better imo

Neither is allowing bad and unjust treatment to continue without fighting back.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

See this week's chapter, Tobirama was all for killing Sasuke before he could try to destroy Konoha, while Hashirama wanted to talk so he could try to convince Sasuke.
Hiruzen is the same, as we all know.

As for the coup, when Fugaku said he would be willingly to stop the coup?
Also it was a power grab, Kishi just shows how ninja's society lighted the Uchiha curse again. Its also obvious the coup was painted so for the plot, since, if Fugaku waited just some years, Itachi would've been made surely Hokage.
He was known and praised by way too many people, and Hiruzen ( and Danzou as well ) had an enormous amount of respect for him.
I'm sure they would've accepted him regardless of their supposed bigotry towards the Uchihas

And seeing that Sasuke's intentions were either way, and he was willing to talk things over and be convinced otherwise, that really doesn't change the original point. The entire reason Hashirama chose to talk to Sasuke is because Sasuke hadn't made his decision about what to do yet and was basically asking what to do. If the Uchiha clan was like Sasuke, then what they were plotting wasn't guarantee.

Fugaku willing accepted Itachi joining the other side and didn't attempt to fight back at all, only wishing for Itachi to protect Sasuke and speaking of how proud of Itachi he was. That is not the way the leader of a coup plotting mass murder acts. Except that Itachi wouldn't have been allowed to be made Hokage, because that was what Danzo wanted. It's pretty obvious that Danzo would have eventually tried to eliminate Itachi, just like he did against Tsunade and possibly Sarutobi. That's the key point, taking out Danzo would have solved everything.

Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

When did I question the number of Sharingan users? I acknowledge several time before there was only a few. The fact that you seem to be ignoring is that the handful who were said to have awaken the Sharingan were said to have been the elite members of the clan, those of the police force. Only the strongest of the Uchiha's in Konoha had it, and they were considered geniuses. We were told this several times. So the comparison works, especially when, as mentioned, Orochimaru would have had nothing to do with Sasuke's genjutsu skill.

And being wiped out by Itachi and Obito is hardly being wiped out easily, especially when it happen at night. Itachi has been shown superior to basically everyone. And we can't even compare his strength to Fugaku given that his parents didn't even put up a fight. How did the Uchiha's intend the same way? They knew Konoha knew of the coup.

What other option would there have been, start the very war he didn't want in the first place? You're basically saying that Sarutobi would put his own desires over protecting the village. Why would there have been a risk of conflict when the only reason there was any conflict between the two was because of the council's action. The whole point is that the Uchiha's beef was with the council segregating and discriminating against them. That's what they were fighting against. They had no beef with the rest of Konoha.

How aren't they the same? Danzo's machinations endangered the village just as much any possible coup. Heck, his actions have been responsible for the village being assaulted by Pain and it was implied that he was behind Orochimaru's attack too. Danzo has caused just as much deaths as they would have possibly done.

First, most Uchiha's wouldn't need the Sharingan for the few who did to do what was needed. Secondly, the very fact that Obito wasn't originally exception and became so in time would be how it normally happens. Thirdly, a hax technique does not make one exceptional. There's quite a few examples of that fact, like those three who have Minato's Hiraishin or Konohamaru with the Rasengan. Fourth, both Yamato and Danzo had Hashirama's cells and were hardly exceptional. Heck, the Zetsus are made from Hashirama's cells, would you call them exceptional? And last, no. The teacher being powerful does not translate to the student being powerful. By that logic, Obito should have already been exception due to being Minato's student. Madara is nearly an unstoppable juggernaut capable of taking on five Kages at once, whereas Obito's only saving grace is Kamui and without it he can barely handle Danzo's subordinates without being injured. Madara is clearly on a whole 'nother level.

Your estimations of the Uchiha's abilities are far beyond what the manga provides. Simple. The 'elites of the Uchiha' are obviously incomparable to the Uchihas we've seen in action. Attempting to gift their abilities to other Uchihas isn't reasonable. If the entire clan could be wiped out by Itachi and Obito, whom you so vehemently claim is just average, they are clearly nowhere near the level you suggest.

On your second point, I'm not going to continue to argue because it is some hypothetical situation that would seem extremely unlikely considering what the manga has provided. The Uchiha planned a coup, an attempt to take control of Konoha, that is reality. Assassination of the council members and a sit-down with the Hokage wasn't on the table. As for this Danzo v Uchiha matter, I'm sure you are able to distinguish between weakening or endangering the village somewhat through external activities and attacking the village outright.

MS makes one exceptional; that is fact. It's rarity, and power, ensures that. A MS with an inherent hax ability even more so. Rasengan isn't remotely comparable to Kamui, and three individuals coming together to use a technique isn't either. We've seen what Hashirama cells are capable of providing; Danzo's Sharingan use, Yamamoto's bijuu control, Obito's vitality and ability to summon Gedo Mazo and control six Jins, Orochimaru's increased power. And the teacher being powerful doesn't make one exceptional, but it sure helps. I'm not going to continue to argue about Obito. It's not of central relevance to the discussion, and it is unbelievable that it is even a point of contention.

Originally Posted by shahdan

The coup was planned for over-throwing the government, and most probably initiating an act of rebellion in order to gain acceptance for demands. How many Sarutobi clan members do you know of? Were they enough to take on about hundred plus group of people in combat, or declare a small onslaught on Uchiha clan following the arrests? Itachi and Shisui were already a part of root division. What is there to suggest there there weren't more uchiha clan members who made up the anbu division?

The ruling council never suggested Danzo, it was just the Daimyo who was quickly convinced by Danzo's heart-felt speech. The point is Jounin rebellion here, don't twist words and crux of argumentation to suit your needs. If they could on grounds that they were knowledgeable about Danzo's shady political division, which could jeopardize Konoha in a number of unforeseen ways, just proves that this whole retaliation is clearly stretched and is a common hogwash at best.

Why would they not accept their government? I just gave you an example of Danzo presiding over Tsunade. The root division never intervened during Pein attack but there is not a single manga page to suggest that his position was unwelcome on these grounds amongst all the jounin rank officials. In fact we only know about the opinion of about ten people at best. He still became the incumbent Hokage by selection through a single individual. If people and ninjas can accept the rule of an individual who himself along with his underlings did nothing to curb the war waged by pein, I cannot see how an internal war will break out just because Uchiha clan take over, when they actually had people's trust. Yes, clearly I am being completely illogical. Must be a hard acquired taste; your justifications, of course.

How many Sarutobis do I know of? Hiruzen, Asuma, Biwako, Sasuke, Konohamaru, and the group of Sarutobis that utilised that fire release again the Ten-tails. So I'd say I'm probably listing more Sarutobis than you'd be able to list Uchiha within Root.

I'm not going to continue to argue over the obvious differences between Danzo being appointed to fill an empty post by a head of State and an Uchiha coup. If you can't see it, that 's just too unfortunate.

And if you can't see how the Uchiha coup would lead to internal conflict within Konoha, I recommend some source material. You should probably start with Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto, it's a pretty good read, try it some time.

Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

Originally Posted by shahdan

Itachi's genjutsu skills are - as I mentioned earlier - mostly aligned with MS. Again you are completely disproving the scans I posted for your own convenience. Keep ignoring them, but they don't alter the author's god-hand's on 3T Genjtsu. Your opinions on Itachi practically mean nothing here or for the progression of this discussion. But be my guest if you want to run around in circles, gushing irrelevant praise.

Irrelevant praise ?
Need I list the people who praised Itachi regardless of his Mangekyo?
-Fugaku
-Shikaku
-Kakashi
-Kabuto

And then by feats:
-caught Naruto twice in a genjutsu without him knowing
-caught Bee in a genjutsu without the latter knowing

And probably I forget more.
Itachi, at 13, was the strongest of his clan, a prodigy like no other.
To think normal Uchihas can even hope to compare is laughable, no offence

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I think the delusional sentiment applies to you more, if you believe that the coup would have been a complete failure had the element of 'Surprise' still existed. Nawaz Sharif knew about Pervaiz Musharraf's coup plans, but the strategic element of lack of information gave the latter an advantage. He ousted a leader through a simple house arrest through pre-emption, when he had the whole police force and many Lieutenant generals supporting him. The complete dearth of information on the plan's execution date, give Uchiha clan a strategic advantage. No one is glossing over coup with sun-shine from Disany's *insert random crap name here*. That's entirely your own fault.

Guess who was a double agent?
Konoha knew everything about the coup, and lacked the backing up of pretty much the entire army. It was a single clan against a village, village that knew everything there was to know about the coup.
But I can't force you to believe the Uchihas were screwed regardless, expecially if you chose to ignore manga panels

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We don't know whether the whole anbu division was even aware of he coup. It's quite possible that only the spies close to Danzo or the ones employed to spy on the Uchiha clan were knowledgeable. What's to say that Uchiha clan members were not a part of root division like Itachi and Shisui?

ANBU is under the Hokage, ROOT is under Danzou.
Both the Hokage and Danzou were aware of it, as such both ROOT and ANBU would know about the plan
And Itachi was in ANBU, not in ROOT.
Go reread the first fight he had against the Jounins, Itachi was an ANBU captain at 13, when he fled the village

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Why would the whole village rise to oppose them? Manga hasn't delineated anything along these lines, they were just far-fetched opinions to expedite the massacre, and your opinions are also of the same nature; completely ill-founded. Also, what makes you think that another clan wouldn't have welcomed this? The Hyuga clan's branch family could have easily sided with the Uchiha clan, or supported them as well, after they received nothing but cold-shoulder treatment from the likes of the much-loved-by-all Hizuren.

Yes, because Itachi was always right. lol His admissions of being a complete failure, anyone?

Are you serious?
Are you asking why a village would oppose a clan that would overthrow the government for their own selfish desires? If so, then, my friend, let's agree to disagree since we have completely different ideas

Itachi failed, true, by his own admission nevertheless.
He failed about Sasuke, not about needing to end his clan
As Hiruzen said, he always saw the bigger picture, and wasn't bound by petty or selfish ideals

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

25? Obito had at least 104 eyes, that means at least 52 Uchiha's with Sharingans. Along with Danzo's, that 57. That a reasonable force, considering Konoha's army was shown as crap. That's not even mentioning that the rest of the regular Uchiha's. Pretty good, especially when it's canonical that to fight a Sharingan required two verses one against the to counter their genjutsu ability.

Shikaku said that only someone like Itachi (which didn't disclude any other Sharingan users actually) could control people outside the range of their sensors, which covered several nations. So even if there was no users in Konoha who could achieve that feat, they wouldn't have to for this discussion.

Remember the three fodders that were humiliated by a non-Sharingan, 13 years old Itachi?
That was the level, a level the likes of Gai and Kakashi would ate for breakfast
Uchihas were dangerous since they could fight while ignore the citizens, because they were in the village system ( they were the police afterall ) and because, as you said, they were a powerful clan, even in their decadence.
Doesn't mean they were gods walking among men

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The strength of the regular clan members was notorious, and simply possessing the Sharingan as not some instant enhancement of power. Sasuke as repeatedly shown that one needs the skills to back up it's usage.

They had forewarning and the coup wasn't even ready to go yet. Konoha's side had multiple advantages over the clan and still believed an ambush was needed to succeed. Obito didn't mention anything about them being annihilated. The copying ability didn't just apply to using ninjutsu, it was also the source of their prediction ability and that applied pretty much regardless of opponent. Anyway, the Sharingan's genjutsu ability was shown alongside the copying ability in it's first appearance, Kakashi warned Asuma and Kurenai about it before he was even made aware of Tsukuyomi, and Chiyo went on to tell us in Part Two how against a Sharingan user, common tactics were to run if alone and only fight if you had a teammate. The copying ninjutsu skill actually doesn't appear to have been used all that much by. None of the Uchiha's we've seen have really made use of it.

Was notorious compared to the fodder ninja, a fodder Uchiha would be >> a fodder ninja thanks to an haxed ability

They believed an ambush was needed for a victory with no ( or few ) losses, Danzou said clearly the Uchihas would die even with Itachi on their side and knowing about Konoha knowing about it ( lol )
As for copying, Kakashi was known for copying, Madara copied Hashirama's Mokuton, Sasuke copied Lee's taijutsu and Itachi copied Kabuto's Suiton in the last fight
By its name alone, Sharingan is the "Copy-wheel eye" that's why it was famous back in part 1.

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Neither is allowing bad and unjust treatment to continue without fighting back.

And I never said Konoha was right and Uchihas were wrong, both were wrong.
The difference is that the Uchiha's wrong was worse than the Konoha's wrong

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And seeing that Sasuke's intentions were either way, and he was willing to talk things over and be convinced otherwise, that really doesn't change the original point. The entire reason Hashirama chose to talk to Sasuke is because Sasuke hadn't made his decision about what to do yet and was basically asking what to do. If the Uchiha clan was like Sasuke, then what they were plotting wasn't guarantee.

Fugaku willing accepted Itachi joining the other side and didn't attempt to fight back at all, only wishing for Itachi to protect Sasuke and speaking of how proud of Itachi he was. That is not the way the leader of a coup plotting mass murder acts. Except that Itachi wouldn't have been allowed to be made Hokage, because that was what Danzo wanted. It's pretty obvious that Danzo would have eventually tried to eliminate Itachi, just like he did against Tsunade and possibly Sarutobi. That's the key point, taking out Danzo would have solved everything.

Hashirama wanted to talk with Sasuke because he's a good guy, a 40/50 years old Naruto, all sunshines and rainbows.
Would you talk with a guy that in his hands has a button that would nuke your country?

Oh god let's not paint Fugaku as a martyr, he was a proud man that accepted his fate with dignity, that much I'll admit, and considering what Tobirama told us its normal for Uchihas to care about their family.
But he only cared about his family, and that was his mistake.

And yet he did nothing when Yondaime was appointed Hokage, when Hiruzen was appointed again and when Tsunade was as well.
He could not prevent Itachi from being made Hokage, since the choices would be either him or Kakashi. He could use Orochimaru in the same way, true, but would Orochimaru challange Itachi?
I don't think so

Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

Originally Posted by Anduren

All this discussion of the coup d'etat is well and good and interesting thinking about what would've actually happened if it did take place. But aren't we getting away from the actual topic? The introducing post of the thread already said:

If we're to adhere to these presumptions, it can't be argued that Tobirama is racist (point one in the above list). It can't be argued that Tobirama discriminated or tried to oppress the Uchiha (point two in the list). It's a fact mentioned by both Tobirama, Itachi and Tobi that the Uchiha is a cursed clan (point three). There's an agreement that the coup was stopped for the greater good of the village (point four of the above list).

So why get into the weeds of debating minute details of an event that never took place in the manga when the actual topic is why people "curse Tobirama and treat him to be a racist segregationist" based on one page of the manga?

The only argument I see is.... Tobirama is the direct cause of the Uchiha planning a coup (then goes off to an off-topic discussion on how the coup would've taken place if x was the case and y happened) No one seems to want to address why they blame Tobirama for the Uchiha discrimination when their isolation didn't even take place during his lifetime.

After 19 pages of posts I'm starting to think its easier to catch a squirrel in the back yard with bare hands than to extract an answer to this out of the people who keep hating on Tobirama.

Besides, people forget many factors here:

1. Tobirama is one of the people who knows everything. We have been waiting for him for a long time.
2. There is no sign of discrimination towards the Uchiha during Tobirama's reign. The so called discrimination and segregation was only mentioned by Tobi and Orochimaru, and we know that Tobi is a copy of Madara while Orochimaru is the perfect evidence that an Hokage must take harsh decision - I mean many people died because Hiruzen was easy on him.

Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

Originally Posted by Impossibility

Your estimations of the Uchiha's abilities are far beyond what the manga provides. Simple. The 'elites of the Uchiha' are obviously incomparable to the Uchihas we've seen in action. Attempting to gift their abilities to other Uchihas isn't reasonable. If the entire clan could be wiped out by Itachi and Obito, whom you so vehemently claim is just average, they are clearly nowhere near the level you suggest.

My estimations are beyond what the series provides? How is that? There's not a single thing to suggest that they would have lacked the powers and skills being attributed to them, especially when the series has made a point in telling us the clan possessed such a strength. The entire point of the events were the Uchiha clan was such a threat, it made the likes of Tobirama and later the council paranoid. And as mentioned, being wiped out by the two means little. Itachi is one of the most powerful ninjas in the entire series and I have said several times that Obito's only saving grace was Kamui. It was without that, that he was average.

Originally Posted by Impossibility

On your second point, I'm not going to continue to argue because it is some hypothetical situation that would seem extremely unlikely considering what the manga has provided. The Uchiha planned a coup, an attempt to take control of Konoha, that is reality. Assassination of the council members and a sit-down with the Hokage wasn't on the table. As for this Danzo v Uchiha matter, I'm sure you are able to distinguish between weakening or endangering the village somewhat through external activities and attacking the village outright.

Extremely unlikely? You're gonna argue that Sarutobi would start a war that he didn't want over personal revenge and risk the very village he was trying to protect? That's completely opposite of the "Hashirama way" that was attempting to end the cycle of hatred. It's ridiculous to make Sarutobi out to be some revengeful fool when he was shown anything but. Have you been paying attention to the series?

There's no reason a sit down would not be on the table, when as pointed out, the council members were not some inculpable innocence. They were directly responsible for the way events were happening, against Sarutobi's wishes. Their removal solves the problem, and the idea that Sarutobi would sacrifice thousands over three people is just ridiculous. And that has been gone over already. There's not a single point of evidences suggesting the Uchiha's were plotting to attack the village itself. The very definition of a coup d'état is an attack upon the government and the results everyone was so worried about was the possibility of weakening the village for it's external enemies. Nothing was said about innocent people being their targets. So both are completely comparable.

Originally Posted by Impossibility

MS makes one exceptional; that is fact. It's rarity, and power, ensures that. A MS with an inherent hax ability even more so. Rasengan isn't remotely comparable to Kamui, and three individuals coming together to use a technique isn't either. We've seen what Hashirama cells are capable of providing; Danzo's Sharingan use, Yamamoto's bijuu control, Obito's vitality and ability to summon Gedo Mazo and control six Jins, Orochimaru's increased power. And the teacher being powerful doesn't make one exceptional, but it sure helps. I'm not going to continue to argue about Obito. It's not of central relevance to the discussion, and it is unbelievable that it is even a point of contention.

No, it doesn't. Most of the MS users were already exceptional before they had even awoke MS. They didn't become "more exception" upon gaining it. Both Rasengan and Hiraishin are hax techniques. By your logic, knowing them equals being exceptional. As for Mokuton, Danzo's Izanagi usage was crap, Yamato's Bijuu control was weak, and summoning the Gedo Mazo and using the Paths were thanks to the Rinnegan. None of your examples are of someone becoming exceptional. The only thing close is Orochimaru and he was already quite exceptional. A powerful teacher helps the student become stronger, but that's no the same as becoming exceptional. I gave several examples to show that. Every fight that Obito has been in has him being outmaneuvered and only surviving because of his body. Not because he's smarter, not because he's more skilled, but simply because he can tank an attack. He tanked Minato's Rasengan, he tanked Torunes nano-bugs, he tanked Konan's blast, and he tanked Naruto's assault.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Remember the three fodders that were humiliated by a non-Sharingan, 13 years old Itachi?
That was the level, a level the likes of Gai and Kakashi would ate for breakfast
Uchihas were dangerous since they could fight while ignore the citizens, because they were in the village system ( they were the police afterall ) and because, as you said, they were a powerful clan, even in their decadence.
Doesn't mean they were gods walking among men

Itachi humiliates everyone not named Hashirama or Madara, so that's a moot point. I think you're overestimating exactly how strong Gai and Kakashi would have been at that point, or how well they would have done, given how well Kakashi was able to do against Sasuke. And as I mentioned, Konoha's combat forces are crap. They got devastated by a force of 200 and walked over by six powerful ninjas. That's the point, aside from a few key ninjas, Konoha's force has never been shown that capable. The Uchiha's wouldn't have had to be "gods among men" to deal with them. Not that they needed to, what with it being a coup.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Was notorious compared to the fodder ninja, a fodder Uchiha would be >> a fodder ninja thanks to an haxed ability

They believed an ambush was needed for a victory with no ( or few ) losses, Danzou said clearly the Uchihas would die even with Itachi on their side and knowing about Konoha knowing about it ( lol )
As for copying, Kakashi was known for copying, Madara copied Hashirama's Mokuton, Sasuke copied Lee's taijutsu and Itachi copied Kabuto's Suiton in the last fight
By its name alone, Sharingan is the "Copy-wheel eye" that's why it was famous back in part 1.

Losses weren't exactly mentioned, now was it. Danzo talked alot of crap, his actions and the series itself clearly showed otherwise. And aside from Kakashi, who's not an Uchiha, only Sasuke showed any sort of copying and that was once. Madara didn't "copy" Hashirama's Mokuton and not sure why you think Itachi copied Kabuto, given that Itachi had water techniques already. Even believing that, that's two techniques out of like two dozen. Like I said, it hasn't really been made use of.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

And I never said Konoha was right and Uchihas were wrong, both were wrong.
The difference is that the Uchiha's wrong was worse than the Konoha's wrong

How were their wrong worst? Their wrong would have involved less deaths, especially of innocence. And their wrong was being done out of desperation, instead of greed like the council.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Hashirama wanted to talk with Sasuke because he's a good guy, a 40/50 years old Naruto, all sunshines and rainbows.
Would you talk with a guy that in his hands has a button that would nuke your country?

Oh god let's not paint Fugaku as a martyr, he was a proud man that accepted his fate with dignity, that much I'll admit, and considering what Tobirama told us its normal for Uchihas to care about their family.
But he only cared about his family, and that was his mistake.

And yet he did nothing when Yondaime was appointed Hokage, when Hiruzen was appointed again and when Tsunade was as well.
He could not prevent Itachi from being made Hokage, since the choices would be either him or Kakashi. He could use Orochimaru in the same way, true, but would Orochimaru challange Itachi?
I don't think so

Hashirama chose to talk because Sasuke was in the middle of deciding his action. He specifically mentioned he was trying to help Sasuke from becoming another Madara. Of course, if it meant said nuke wouldn't be used.

Martyr? The point was that Fugaku showed no sort of signs of being some heartless mass murder as people are trying to make him out to be. Please, taking Tobirama's prejudice as evidence. The Uchiha clan helped Konoha for five decades and didn't do anything until they got pushed into it. Where is the evidence that he or any Uchiha "only" cared about their clan? They ousted family for the village. He showed more love for the village then Danzo and the council have.

Minato died shortly after becoming Hokage, it was implied he had Sarutobi assassinated, and he played Tsunade the whole time. Why wouldn't he have been able to prevent Itachi from becoming Hokage when we saw him do so against Kakashi? That's not even taking in the whole Kotoamatsukami issue.

Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

Itachi's genjutsu skills without Mangekyo is one of the best - Mangekyo doesn't enhance one's talent in ninjutsu, genjutsu, or taijutsu otherwise Itachi would have been owning Sasuke in katon vs. katon fight without needing Amaterasu. Mangekyo just provides at least one extra jutsu, or probably two, since Kakashi's Sharingan came from Obito's in the first place. Itachi, without Mangekyo, is one of the best in the series. If he had not Sharingan, he'd still be jounin level, easily. Kakashi without Sharingan, as seen, would be jounin level as well. Sasuke was at the time of chuunin exam, at at chuunin level, according to Genma. Sharingan just made three of 'em even better; they were already great shinobi.

Anyway, despite being told to discuss Tobirama and Uchiha fair and square, from what I've seen most people aren't doing that. They're either too skewed against the Uchiha or for them. So far, no one is really being fair and square, either blaming the Uchiha solely or saying they're completely innocent (although they were in Tobirama's time).

And probably I forget more.
Itachi, at 13, was the strongest of his clan, a prodigy like no other.
To think normal Uchihas can even hope to compare is laughable, no offence

Guess who was a double agent?
Konoha knew everything about the coup, and lacked the backing up of pretty much the entire army. It was a single clan against a village, village that knew everything there was to know about the coup.
But I can't force you to believe the Uchihas were screwed regardless, expecially if you chose to ignore manga panels

ANBU is under the Hokage, ROOT is under Danzou.
Both the Hokage and Danzou were aware of it, as such both ROOT and ANBU would know about the plan
And Itachi was in ANBU, not in ROOT.
Go reread the first fight he had against the Jounins, Itachi was an ANBU captain at 13, when he fled the village

Are you serious?
Are you asking why a village would oppose a clan that would overthrow the government for their own selfish desires? If so, then, my friend, let's agree to disagree since we have completely different ideas

Itachi failed, true, by his own admission nevertheless.
He failed about Sasuke, not about needing to end his clan
As Hiruzen said, he always saw the bigger picture, and wasn't bound by petty or selfish ideals

How is that irrelevant list relevant to the discussion at hand? We are only talking about Base Sharingan’s genjutsu prowess here. Your word twisting isn’t doing you any good, when your desultory shifts from topic to topic, including hogwash comparisons no one made mentions of are mucking up the whole conversation. You are doing an apt job. I asked; show me a page where it is mentioned that Itachi’s 3T genjutsu was better than any other individual?
Here are some of Sasuke’s prowess with 3T genjtusu, albeit he was proven to be several tiers below Itachi’s MS genjutsu:

What is the difference between both of them? Like I said, love your blatant refusal at accepting the manga links concerning the tactics Chiyo suggested. It’s called selected ignorance. Itachi’s status has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.

What a baselessly made up and hilariously off-the-course claim. Where is your proof? Kakashi didn’t seem to know, despite his elite Jounin status. In fact, none of the elite jounins were aware of the coup, including the members in the elite Jounin council that includes Shikamaru and Ino’s fathers. Otherwise, after the news of Sasuke’s involvement in Akatsuki broke out in the village, someone would have revealed something. About countless chapters later, everyone is still in the dark. Kakashi is still unable to wrap his head around the fact that the elders gave orders for the extermination of the clan. This must be a dry joke that requires a cue to guffaws.

How many root division members were revealed to be aware of the history of Uchiha Massacre, or even the coup at that time? Sai – a hunter-nin - had no knowledge about the coup and why he was given a page to exterminate Sasuke. He was only given a basic order to kill the missing-nin without the knowledge of the current Hokage; it was a behind the scene maneuver. Even when he had a change of heart, he still never divulged any such information.

Danzo suggested a course of action, there isn’t a single manga page to validate that he even revealed the news to anyone in anbu-roots division. Anbu faction is a special tactical and assignation squad, and members are capable of attaining jounin status later; Kakashi would be one example. At least some of them could have revealed something to anyone. Danzo was simply manipulating the situation to get Sharingan and nothing more. It’s pretty safe to assume that the only people aware of the coup were the leaders, and Danzo’s two guards who are involved in a lot of his dirty work.

P.s: Root is an off-shoot of the Anbu branch and it falls under Danzo’s orders, which would explain why Itachi reported to Danzo as well, and solely acted on orders from him, despite Hoakge’s power over the squad. It isn’t as straight-line simple as you make it sound like. Even Shisui either reported or brought this matter in Danzo’s knowledge and told him of his course of action which resulted in his eye getting unceremoniously poked out of his socket.

How intelligent Itachi was that even after the knowledge of this event, he still abided by Danzo’s orders. Genius indeed.

A desire to an equal political hold is selffish? Right. Are you serious? Why would the villagers rise up to Uchiha if they are treated justly? Stop grasping at straws. This comment is ripped to shreds by you without any effective back up. I couldn’t care less about Hizuren’s justifications. If a leader fails to extend a courtesy of equality to the masses; he’s a failure. All of the hokages – except Tsunade - fall aptly under this banner, when they did nothing to stop Uchiha, and Hyuga branch-family’s gross treatment.

How many Sarutobis do I know of? Hiruzen, Asuma, Biwako, Sasuke, Konohamaru, and the group of Sarutobis that utilised that fire release again the Ten-tails. So I'd say I'm probably listing more Sarutobis than you'd be able to list Uchiha within Root.

I'm not going to continue to argue over the obvious differences between Danzo being appointed to fill an empty post by a head of State and an Uchiha coup. If you can't see it, that 's just too unfortunate.

And if you can't see how the Uchiha coup would lead to internal conflict within Konoha, I recommend some source material. You should probably start with Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto, it's a pretty good read, try it some time.

Why force yourself then? No one is coercing you into replying. And if can’t see how this situation isn’t a simple your-created cause and effect scenario, then it’s better to stop the argumentation altogether. This ‘can’t see’ over-used phrase has lost its impact sometime around your first usage.

Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

Originally Posted by M3J

Anyway, despite being told to discuss Tobirama and Uchiha fair and square, from what I've seen most people aren't doing that. They're either too skewed against the Uchiha or for them. So far, no one is really being fair and square, either blaming the Uchiha solely or saying they're completely innocent (although they were in Tobirama's time).

So of us are merely trying to point out that while the Uchiha's were plotting violent, it's was not the full scale massacre people are trying to make it out to be and only doing so after being pushed into it. People don't seem to understand that a coup is actions against a specific target group, not some massive free for all.