yeah but I could put wood on the front of a cheap Sony receiver and it would still be a cheap ass Sony receiver. The proof is in the sound for me and while this unit might sound great I dought it sounds that much better than the cheaper units from some of the other good companies like ps audio and such that to make it worth that much money unless you are just trying to show up your other rich friends. I think there is a limit with how much to spend for a certain component for what it does and how much better it really is compared to more real world priced components.

Harley, I would bet that it sounds better than a Benchmark DAC. But you are right, as you go higher in price the law of diminishing returns comes in play. It all boils down to how much are you willing to spend for that slight improvement in sound. If money is no object then I would own a pair of $150K Apogee's like Florians.

I bought a $1700 Hybrid DAC and got rid of my 840c CDP. Is the DAC a huge improvement over the 840c, no it isn't, but it does sound better and it was worth it to me.

Harley, I would bet that it sounds better than a Benchmark DAC. But you are right, as you go higher in price the law of diminishing returns comes in play. It all boils down to how much are you willing to spend for that slight improvement in sound. If money is no object then I would own a pair of $150K Apogee's like Florians.

I bought a $1700 Hybrid DAC and got rid of my 840c CDP. Is the DAC a huge improvement over the 840c, no it isn't, but it does sound better and it was worth it to me.

Yes you are very right. If I had an income that would allow me to own 100,000 dollar speakers and 12,000 cd players and DAC's then I guess I would have a different outlook but I think I would still be a little more conservative than that and know to by good products and get the best that is out there but I still believe that there is a point where paying more for 2 speakers than a high end car from Germany or Italy is crazy and not worth it by no means. paying more for an Amplifier than my 2007 Harley Softail is just stupid knowing How much goes into a motorcycle than a 2 channel audio amplifier, I hope everyone gets what I am talking about here and does not think I am being cheap. By no means am I saying that high end does not have its place and I will spend good money on good stuff if it is worth it but that's be real folks a 2010 corvette zr-1 is a little over 100 grand and has over 600 horsepower, goes zero to 60 in 3.5 seconds and goes over 200 miles per hour and in my opinion a pair of speakers as simple and old tech as speakers are in comparison to this car should not cost as much or even close to as much as a car like that. Just my opinion on this.

Sorry I get carried away with my analogies about the comparisons between things that actually cost right in the market place and high end electronics which are a high cost rich mans "keep up with the Jones's" thing. I just get angry at times because I have built circuits and components for electrical devices and also know how cheap this stuff is compared to what they sell it for retail. I know that these companies have to make money to pay their overhead and peaple and all of that but the markup on high end audio is super ridiculous and it really makes me mad that due to a few rich people that are willing to pay 2000 % markup for this stuff the normal Joes like most of us can't ever hope to be able to afford the best that is out there. In fact there are plenty of people I know that have went the way of DIY because of the super high markup of the high end stuff.

That BC amp is a beast but reality sets in when you click on the price list.

I don't really agree with your statements here. First of all mark up on a Corvette is large, much larger than on a Colbalt. Every company has to make money on their higher end product. Whether you spend 100k on a Corvette or I spend it on audio gear, neither is more or less an evil than the other, it is a matter of what is important to the buyer. To say all high end equipment is over priced and not worth it is just not accurate. You first have to hear the various levels of gear to be able to know how much difference there is between a $1k unit and a $10k unit. Audiophiles who really know their gear and what they hear aren't just buying a name plate. I suggest you price some of the higher end caps and resistors etc. The statement made parts are cheap may be for building radio shack circuits with 10% tolerance but for higher end gear with tight tolerance and better material there is a difference. Power supplies get very expensive. And did you see the capacitor bank in the DAC? It's probably over kill but it's there and adds to the expense. The DAC, considering the power bank could actually be a good value when you take a $1500.00 player then add the expense of an upgraded power cord and power conditioner. With BC you are also paying a premium price for it being hand made. I do agree that all of the excess doesn't mean a thing if it doesn't perform. Also, profit has to be some larger to make up for lack of volume of sales. A company isn't going to sell as many $4k units as a $400.00 one. Just as GM don't sell as many Corvettes as Impalas.

I've heard some very expensive gear. Most I thought I would consider if I had the money, some left me wondering who would buy it at any price. Krell made a $25k preamp/CD player combo, I think the 25s, that thing is phoenominal and I would not hesitate to drop that kind of money on it if I had it. The Dynaudio Sapphires are a bargain at $16k. I have yet to hear anything from T+A I wouldn't pay the price for and that includes an $8k CD player.

Unless you have heard this calibur of gear you simply are not qualified to make those kinds of statements. ALL product lines, no matter the product, has a higher profit margin on the top end models. So you can't single out audio as the evil industry that bends every one over. And, please don't try to hold up the auto industry as the poster boys of fair play. You think they can afford to pay their linemen $30.00 an hour to sit at home on their butt during lay off and have an even profit from top to bottom model?

A lot of it is the consumers fault as well. When Arcam had the Alpha lines out the gear performed great, prices weren't bad at all compared to the performance level you got. But the chasis were plastic and thin metal. Even though they had a great product it didn't have the look. So they came out with the Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) lines. The FMJ did have internal upgrades but the price of the FMJ was a pretty good step from the Alpha. I guess it's like any other product, you have to look the part as well.

The companies that make me mad are the ones who move the production to China yet the prices of the product stay the same to the consumer. Audio isn't alone there either. Did you see Nike drop any retail prices when they moved to Mexico and China? So there's more evil around than just ragging on some one who makes a profit. They can hang a price on anything, if it sells they will keep the price there or raise it depending on demand and how fast it sold. If no one buys it then you will see a price drop. I wonder how much the cost of material is in one of those $150.00 running shoes.

I know this lady who wanted me to help her put together a HT system, she told me her budget was $200.00. In a polite way I basically told her, good luck with that. Come to find out she was sporting a $350.00 designer name purse. So a lot of it is with one's priority.

I do understand this Mr. Peabody and I was not implying that all high end gear is not worth the money and I have heard and been around some high end stuff. I have been in this hobby for many years and while my current system is not of the level that some of you guy's have I have worked in the industry being a manager of a high end shop in my area and are aware of the mark ups in the prices of the components and especially the accessories. I do know I used cars as a example and this was probably not the best comparison with the state of the car companies right now and the fact that everything in the higher end of the scale of the product has higher markup for different reasons many do to better materials and lower sales to make their money off of. I understand this and do know about the different levels of components in crossovers and power supplies for high end components. while I personally believe a power supply like the one in this DAC is overkill for a unit that does not require a whole lot of power to operate I think it is more for looks reasons and sometimes its to brag about the transformer or the other components in the chain. I think there are two sides to this, many times I can understand that many high end components use the best parts out there and the price is worth it but I also see another side where the price is cranked way to high for the performance and not worth it. Its a fine line that I personally have seen go both ways and while the performance of brands like Conrad Johnson, Krell, and Dynaudio or Usher may be worth the price and not overly out of this world high I also don't agree with a pair of speakers being 200,000 dollars in a world with a economy like it is. And the fact that we have companies that operate in the U.S. that have layed off American workers in order to get their stuff made in China where they don't pay the workers near the wages and the quality suffers in most cases but the prices stay the same just plain pisses me off. I do understand that I went off on a tangent and used comparisons that were not very good ones but there are times I just see people throwing money on audio gear without taking the time to learn how this stuff works and how to get the best out their gear. I understand if they want someone else that knows what they are doing to set it up because their job does not allow for the time to study this stuff but Me myself I would rather know as much as I can about this hobby so I can get the most out of this hobby and the money spent on it.

I believe that audio companies really don't expect to sell many of their Flagship models. They are sort of a statement of what they can do. They all have a Flagship. They'll sell them if you want it but the piece is mostly here's the ultimate, you probably can't afford it, so we built this more cost effective line with "trickle down" technology from this awesome Flagship.

I was in the business myself back in the late 80's and early 90's. Although I was in the business we were in a small town and did some distributing as well as retail. The extent of my "high end" while in the business was Carver, Proton, Infinity and Electro Voice. It wasn't until I moved to St. Louis and discovered Music For Pleasure that I found out what true high end was. Even at first listen understanding high end took a while. I walked in and one of the guys turned on a $25k pair of Dynaudio speakers connected to a Krell amp that looked like a steam trunk. You'd think that would be impressive and it was to some extent but I was a novice coming in with my demo disc of Great White. I walked out thinking, "man, my system has more mid bass than that". The part where he put the first track on Paula Cole in and the room shook when it got to that sub sonic bass stuck in my mind though. Probably one of the most enlightening moments was when I went back to replace my failed CD player. We began with the entry level Arcam and kept stepping up the Arcam line and I could hear the difference between each. I ended up springing for their top of the line unit at that time. And, the upgrade path and fun continued from there. Any way guys have to be exposed to the ultra expensive in order to get a feel for what the difference is. Another enlightening experience was hearing that $25k Krell front end I mentioned going into Krell monoblocks driving Dynaudio older Confidence 4's. I've yet to really hear a more convincing audition, nothing has been as life like and had the impact of a real band in the room as that set up. I've heard more expensive since. It must have been a perfect match with the room etc. because it was magic and that audition made things sort of click when I experienced that level of reality from electronics.

Harley, your store was in Missouri? Ever do business with Show-Me Electronics? The home office was in Rolla but there were also outlets in Springfield, Mountain Home, AR and some further into the northern part of the state.

Nope. And at USD$4400 it's as inaccessible to me as anything more expensive.

I guess if I could buy anything I wanted I get this EMM Labs combo, TSD1 CD/SACD Transport and DAC2 D/A Converter, (see here). This quasi-profession device does it all including SACD. Rich guy alert: the pair will set you back around US$25k.

Harley, your store was in Missouri? Ever do business with Show-Me Electronics? The home office was in Rolla but there were also outlets in Springfield, Mountain Home, AR and some further into the northern part of the state.

It has been a while since I have been to a real high end shop. Since the one I ran **** down and every shop since then in my area can't seem to be able to pay their overhead around hear(but is to be expected in Joplin where Bose and Best Buy seem to be the reference). I used to go around the high end shops the northern Missouri all the time back in the 90's but the names of the shops i can't seem to remember now. I believe Springfield had a place called Springfield Entertainment systems or something like that, they were a Mcintosh and B&W dealer with a few other brands as well but you could not tell it because they really pushed those two brands quite a bit. Harvey's stereo in Springfield Mo was another shop that I visited regularly but they were really good at changing their brands around or pushing different products at different times but they never seemed to have a setup on demo that I can really remember that impressed me much. but they did not have much room for a higher end music setup without other stuff in the way. I did go to a few shops in Tulsa Oklahoma and Kansas City Mo but like I said that was years ago and most likely those shops have changed names or changed locations since then seeing that a lot of things have changed since when I was in the business. I would say the most exposure to real high end systems are visiting people I have met on forums or people that know me from the shop in the 90's and visiting their houses and hearing their setups and they pretty much invite me over every time they change or move something to get my opinion on what the difference is. I have heard a lot of different brands like Dynaudio, Usher, Krell, Cary, and other high end stuff and then the usual mid high end stuff like Rotel, Adcom, and others that have great performance for the money and have always had products out there that impress even the super high end guys even though the price is very reasonable. I would not mind knowing about the shops around Mo now since I have not been to one in a couple years and would like to visit a few shops in a town that can actually keep a high end shop in business. Any help with this would be appreciated.

Show-Me was where I worked and they were in business since I believe the 50's, started out distributing parts and then got into retail. They went under in the 90's. I just wondered if we ever sold anything to your store.

I'm only familiar with the StL area. We have Music For Pleasure who used to be a Krell dealer but don't carry them any more. Now it's T+A, long time Dynaudio, Martin Logan, NAD, some Marantz and I think still a few pieces of Arcam. They are currently looking for something to take Krell's place but not in a hurry since the economy is slow. They also picked up the higher end Anthem. There's the Sound Room who specializes in home automation. They carry Rotel, B&W, supposedly Levinson but I haven't been in to see what extent. I've heard they have Lexicon and Theta. Best Sound carries ARC, Classe, Rotel and B&W. None of which really excite me. Sad thing is almost every one carries Denon except MFP. There is another shop Hi Fi Fo Fum who has McIntosh but I wouldn't exactly consider them a high end shop based on their expertise or lack there of. I do wish they'd diversify some and bring in some different lines.

Show-Me was where I worked and they were in business since I believe the 50's, started out distributing parts and then got into retail. They went under in the 90's. I just wondered if we ever sold anything to your store..

Not sure but the store I managed was called Audio Concepts. It was Joplins main source for better audio for quite a while in the 90's and our only competitor was a place called Four state TV which sold Jamo and Marrantz but hardly sold any separate components or anything of anything above that area of audio. We sold B&W, Paradigm, Adcom, Mirage, among other brands but those were the brands we worked with the most because they were what people around here could afford and still be somewhat high end. We did sell higher end products on occasion and also we repaired speakers in our shop and I have worked on a number of different brands of vintage and other speakers out there so I know speaker build as well as I have built some of my own designs in the past. B&W had a few speakers I liked but as a whole I thought most of the models we carried were overly bright for my tastes but I always liked Paradigm for what they could do at the price points that they set their products at. The Mirage speakers we sold were the bipolar designs that Mirage made back in the mid 90's before they sold out and started building the pint sized sub sat systems that they make now. some of the best systems we sold used the Mirage M-1 or M-3 si series speakers which in my opinion were awesome speakers in their day and were very high end in sound, the only draw back to them is that they were quite big and people either had to design their rooms to let them be their best or live with these huge speakers in their houses knowing their wives will be pissed. but they did sound good though. I actually do not remember our supply companies names but we had reps come in from time to time and we would hang out and talk audio for hours sometimes when they would visit and usually they would bring some high end goodies with them for us to try out and that was fun. I got to here some high end tube stuff and some higher end ss amps like Acurus among others when we were open. We had basically two different areas in our shop for two different groups of people. We had an open area in front for the lower end receivers and speakers like Yamaha and Sound Dynamics and we also picked up Denon toward the end of our run. Then we had a separate room that was set up with sound dampening materials and built for superior acoustics for critical listening to our higher end stuff and that was where I spent most of my time but our bread and butter was the lower end stuff in our front room since I live in Joplin and the economy around here never really allowed for too much action in the high end area. Most people around here freak when you mention speakers costing more than a thousand dollars a pair or a 2 channel amp that costs more than a home theater receiver. That for the most part has been the death of pretty much every high end shop Joplin has ever seen. People around here just don't think an audio system should cost that much and for the most part they refuse to pay that much and try to bargain with you like you are trying to sell them a used car. I guess thats what I get for living in a smaller area is that there are not shops like the ones that you have there in St. Louis and other bigger cities in the 4 state area. I wish it were different but this is the reality.

Good article and I was not saying that good quality components should be cheap and I do know that better parts are better parts and sometimes you have to pay a lot more for a small amount of difference. Some times its worth it and sometimes it isn't, it all depends on how much these small differences mean to you and the how much budget you have to splurge on the upper end equipment with high price tags. I like studying super high end stuff and will probably own some of it one day when my budget allows and I have taken care of some other stuff in life that has crept up. I also like those jewels in the rough components though that do so much more for the money they cost than they should and actually keep up with stuff at double their price. for some reason I love components like that because they challenge other companies to control their pricing and keep us normal non hollywood rich folk happy because we can afford this kind of stuff much easier.

As for the DAC... I believe in deminishing returns, which means I would probably never spend 4K on a DAC if I can't hear a clear improvement in sound.

that was basically all I was trying to say is that sometimes you are just throwing money away on an improvement that your imperfect ears might night be able to hear anyway. Not always the case but I have seen it many times. And as well I have seen people have the so called placebo effect by way of either trying to justify there big purchase or by knowing that change has been made to their system because they installed the component and are looking for differences which might or might not be there. I have seen some cases where the owner of the equipment hears a huge difference then they ask me to come listen to the system and I am as familiar with their systems as they are and I could not hear the difference they are hearing, Not saying their ears or mine are perfect by any means but sometimes the purchaser of the equipment hears more of a difference than a person that is not involved with the purchase.

I will go on to say that what I just posted is not always true and there are some of those very expensive pieces of equipment that are the best of the best in every regard that deserve their price point and will make a dramatic difference in the overall sound quality of a system baring the rest of the system is up to par enough to show the improvement. So basically there are two sides to this situation. Yes this DAC is probably a sonic bad ass and in the right system could show advantages over lower priced units but also if a person were to go on the prowl for a lower priced unit with excellent sonics as well there could be a chance of finding something that is the equal or 90% the sonic equivalent of this unit at half the price or lower.

One thing to remember about high end equipment. Not all of them use high quality or expensive parts. A while ago, I believe stereophile looked inside some high end equipment and they were surprised to see that many used cheap components.