Advance Wars Online?

ibullard, your opinion is fine. But if we disagree and say nothing, then it may sound like the opinion of everyone here: your ideas are not welcome, go make it yourself. So we offer our opposing opinion to let these posters know that some of us like to hear the ideas. Now I'm not a programmer, and I'm not going to "make his game for him", but I think it helps me as a designer and is interesting to me as a person to hear the game ideas and discuss them and throw things around. And I beleive that there is no reason to take away from these posters the hope that they *could* get really lucky and someone would make that game they want to see made. It is also not good to lead them on and make them think "oh yeah, you're right it is a good idea and we are all going to make it now" (unless you mean it), but I don't think anyone has done that.

DaFalcon Wrote:And I beleive that there is no reason to take away from these posters the hope that they *could* get really lucky and someone would make that game they want to see made. It is also not good to lead them on and make them think "oh yeah, you're right it is a good idea and we are all going to make it now" (unless you mean it), but I don't think anyone has done that.

A short description for a great game doesn't do much. However, if one has everything planned on design docs and so on, it makes a much more compelling option for a programmer to pick up, right?

ibullard Wrote:Then those people shouldn't expect other people to make games for them. Honestly, that's like saying I want to make a car but don't want to be a mechanic.

Everyone in the world has game ideas they'd like to see done and just posting a few paragraphs for a game idea and expecting other people to pick it up and make it is silly. Apologies to the original poster, but that's the way it is. Making a game is hard work and you can't expect other people to do all that work for you. Either learn to do it yourself, pay someone else to do it, or learn to live without it.

So, remarks like that are completely in line.

ibullard Wrote:There is no "here's something I thought up make it work" position in car manufacturing nor is there one in games.

You are mistaken. In many professions, designing a product is way, way different than actually constructing that product. And game development is one of the best examples.

If you were to ever work in a game development studio as a programmer, you will have to answer to producers, who themselves answer to publishers. Not all producers have a gaming background. Some are suits. And the vast majority of publishers are suits too. Close to none of these people are programmers. So if you're angry at the thought of a non-codemonkey leading a project, my only input is to get used to it. That's just the way it is.

On the independent level, I do agree that you need to contribute a little more than the design to pull your own weight, given the small size of the team (2-4 people) and the very small scope of the project. But I don't agree that it should be programming. The artistic side is just as important, if not more so. The only other requirement is that someone be good at design.

Rincewind Wrote:A short description for a great game doesn't do much. However, if one has everything planned on design docs and so on, it makes a much more compelling option for a programmer to pick up, right?

Well, I'm not a programmer, but I'd much rather have a short description of a game and then have freedom to shape it to what I really want to create. I mean, nobody here is going to just plain take someone else's idea and make it. They will only do that if it is an idea that they, too, like. And usually they will have some things to contribute to that idea to make it what they want it to be. And to anyone who HAS played Advance Wars, this particular description wasn't really short at all because it references a compeltely finished game.

Rincewind Wrote:A short description for a great game doesn't do much. However, if one has everything planned on design docs and so on, it makes a much more compelling option for a programmer to pick up, right?

DaFalcon Wrote:Well, I'm not a programmer, but I'd much rather have a short description of a game and then have freedom to shape it to what I really want to create.

It depends on the programmer and on the design. I also like projects where I have creative freedom, but I know a few programmers who would rather have the details spelled out for them so they can focus on the technical aspects of programming.

However, I'd at least want some details if I'm going to program someone else's project. Ideally a design doc and some storyboards. "Make a multiplayer MegaMan with ninjas and role-playing elements" isn't enough.

Guardian's idea (copyright issues aside) is more than enough for a creative programmer to run with.

JustinFic Wrote:If you were to ever work in a game development studio as a programmer, you will have to answer to producers, who themselves answer to publishers. Not all producers have a gaming background. Some are suits. And the vast majority of publishers are suits too. Close to none of these people are programmers. So if you're angry at the thought of a non-codemonkey leading a project, my only input is to get used to it. That's just the way it is.

I do work in a game development studio. I've been a professional game developer for seven years and have worked on eight titles. I'm not angry about non-programmers leading a project, although I've never met a lead designer that didn't have at least some programming knowledge. They have to at least know how to write a script.

However, saying a one-page summary of a game is enough to go off and make is incorrect. Good designers can come up with dozens of one-page summaries in a week and don't need someone else's design to get started. Creating a full-fledged design document would be a start but you can't define fun in a document, it takes some tweaking to the game to make it fun no matter how well laid out your plans.

What upsets me? People with their "I have a game idea" nonsense. Everyone has a game idea. They're a penny a page. Unless you have the applicable skills (or money) to make that idea happen, your game will never see the light of day. Even if you have money/skills the odds are against you.

So I stand by my statement of "There is no 'here's something I thought up make it work' position in car manufacturing nor is there one in games." Even publishers have to bring something to the table, and no one just sits there dreaming up game ideas. If you've worked at a company where you can just sit there and dictate ideas, I'd like to know how to get that job.

Just so we're clear on this: I am not saying you need to be a programmer to make a game. I'm saying you need to have applicable skills to make a game. I can't create art to save my life but I still make a living out of games.

ibullard Wrote:What upsets me? People with their "I have a game idea" nonsense. Everyone has a game idea. They're a penny a page. Unless you have the applicable skills (or money) to make that idea happen, your game will never see the light of day. Even if you have money/skills the odds are against you.

No doubt everyone who has played a game, computer or otherwise, has conceived a game of their own. The same holds true for stories, artwork, and music. And automobiles.

But a forum is for the exchange of ideas and opinions. I think that the point others were making is that more experienced gamers and developers should encourage newcomers and their ideas, regardless of their level of experience or whether the idea will ever come to fruition or not. In the context of this thread, that means drawing on your 7 years' experience and telling us (constructively) what sort of challenges a project like Advance Wars On-line will face, and what will be required to complete it.

At least, that's what I've gathered from other recent threads bemoaning the lack of artists and musicians on idevgames.

ibullard Wrote:So I stand by my statement of "There is no 'here's something I thought up make it work' position in car manufacturing nor is there one in games." Even publishers have to bring something to the table, and no one just sits there dreaming up game ideas. If you've worked at a company where you can just sit there and dictate ideas, I'd like to know how to get that job.

If the gaming industry is becoming as much like the film industry as I've been led to believe, this position is called a Producer, and besides bringing money and contacts to the table they also like to bring ideas. Lots of ideas. Conflicting ideas. Ideas that you thought were your own but won't get credit for. I would also like to know how to get that job.

ibullard Wrote:However, saying a one-page summary of a game is enough to go off and make is incorrect.

In general, you're right. I meant Guardian's idea in particular. (But then again, I play an unhealthy amount of Advance Wars so I already know the units, CO's, how they fight, user interface schemes, etc)

ibullard Wrote:What upsets me? People with their "I have a game idea" nonsense.

If they're looking for input on their design, this is the appropriate place for it. I have a couple of design ideas myself that I'd like to get some feedback on at some point and I'm hoping I'd be welcome to post them to this forum.

I agree that ideas are a dime a dozen. But without that first vision you don't have a design, and you don't have a game.

ibullard Wrote:Just so we're clear on this: I am not saying you need to be a programmer to make a game. I'm saying you need to have applicable skills to make a game. I can't create art to save my life but I still make a living out of games.

I must have misunderstood the earlier exchange between you and iGame3D, then. If this is what you meant then we have no argument. Especially on a uDevGames level, the designer needs to have an artist or programmer hat too.

ibullard Wrote:Then those people shouldn't expect other people to make games for them. Honestly, that's like saying I want to make a car but don't want to be a mechanic.

Its called the law of supply and demand.

ibullard Wrote:Everyone in the world has game ideas they'd like to see done and just posting a few paragraphs for a game idea and expecting other people to pick it up and make it is silly.

Thats called sharing ideas, communication, which happens to be the whole point around here.

No, not everyone has game ideas, my mom, my dad, my wife, either of my brother's, my kid, not any of those people I know, have a single game idea in their head. A developer just asked me last night "what kind of game should I make".

So don't assume you know what "Everyone in the world" has or doesn't have going on in their heads.

ibullard Wrote:Apologies to the original poster, but that's the way it is.
Making a game is hard work and you can't expect other people to do all that work for you. Either learn to do it yourself, pay someone else to do it, or learn to live without it.

So you wrote your own OS?
So you make your own computers?
You make your own car?
You built the roof over your head?
You milk your own cow and homogenize the milk yourself?
You built the road from your house to work?
Did you personally "pay for" the labor involved in any of the above?

Don't be ludicrous. People have every right to express what they can't make themselves, can't payroll others to make, and think is a good idea.

ibullard Wrote:So, remarks like that are completely in line.

No, from a public relations standpoint, from a buildng a user community standpoint they are not

Every average gamer should feel free to come here and ramble about their great game idea. Being disrespectful to the audience only encourages them to pirate games. If they perceive that developers are asses, then they will respond in kind and screw us when and where they can, without so much as a kiss.

Every game developer should feel free to talk about two thousand games or software package they want to develop or see developed but won't have time or energy or money to make in a hundred lifetimes, without being disrespected, by short arrogant replies.

If you, iBullard, are still after two years a jaded, unhappy game programmer, as you were when i first arrived here, don't spread your disease, get a new occupation, or some occupational psycho-therapy, or something.

Your second post on record in 12 months and its supporting an attitude that only drives potential supporters of this site away.

Nobody is coming around here saying "make a game just for me personally over night, you wage slave code monkey", so don't even try to imply that is the representative attitude of the game players posting here.

Everyone should be encouraged to feel free to say.

"The game I want to see made is ___________"

And when at some point some developer actually makes that game or something with features like it, their dream will come true.

igame3d Wrote:No, from a public relations standpoint, from a buildng a user community standpoint they are not

I don't work for iDevGames so public relations isn't my problem. If you're so thin-skinned you can't have a single curmudgeon on the board, then I'm not the problem.

igame3d Wrote:Every average gamer should feel free to come here and ramble about their great game idea. Being disrespectful to the audience only encourages them to pirate games.

Talk about a complete leap in logic. Game developers are asses. They're also good people. Why? Because they're like everyone else! And that has nothing to do with pirating.

igame3d Wrote:Every game developer should feel free to talk about two thousand games or software package they want to develop or see developed but won't have time or energy or money to make in a hundred lifetimes, without being disrespected, by short arrogant replies.

What about honest replies? Truthful replies? What have I said that's incorrect? The "everyone has game ideas" statement is a generalization but if you want to be nit-picky I'll give you that one. I stand by everything else. So far the only one being disrepected by long, arrogant replies is me.

igame3d Wrote:If you, iBullard, are still after two years a jaded, unhappy game programmer, as you were when i first arrived here, don't spread your disease, get a new occupation, or some occupational psycho-therapy, or something.

iGame3D, since you arrived here you have insulted me if I dare make a statement you don't like. Instead of insulting me, why not make a point that actually makes sense.

igame3d Wrote:Your second post on record in 12 months and its supporting an attitude that only drives potential supporters of this site away.

So now I'm driving people away? Like whom? What does posting twice in a year have to do with anything? Did you realize that the site was down for quite some time? Should I go around filling people with false hope and lies about being able to make games that they obviously can't? Would that have helped you? Would you be nice to me if I said "Yes, iGame3D, you can make a do-all 3D game contruction kit! Everyone can be a game designer! It's just that easy!"

Somehow I doubt it.

igame3d Wrote:Nobody is coming around here saying "make a game just for me personally over night, you wage slave code monkey", so don't even try to imply that is the representative attitude of the game players posting here.

Putting words in my mouth. I never implied/stated that. If you can't win an arguement by sticking to the facts, keep your typing to yourself.

igame3d Wrote:Everyone should be encouraged to feel free to say.

"The game I want to see made is ___________"

And when at some point some developer actually makes that game or something with features like it, their dream will come true.

Oh geesh, pull the other leg while you're at it.

If a developer makes a game that someone posts on this board it will be a coincidence or the person that posted it is the developer. Actually, after the stink I've raised someone may make this game just to spite me so I may have actually helped this guy.