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Leonard Nimoy

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One area where I think the show failed--and bear in mind I consider the show mostly successful--is that it never took Tom Zarek's concerns seriously. Specifically, the concerns he raised in "Colonial Day" were only paid lip service and never really addressed.

Why do people continue to do these jobs? They aren't getting paid. Their lives are not going to improve. The fundamentals that make human society possible are gone. All you have left is a small city's worth of people, on the run from monsters that want to wipe them out for good. What's your motivation for doing anything except mere survival?

I think the strike in "Dirty Hands" should've gone all-out. Not just the tylium ship and deckhands, but every ship in the fleet where people are doing crappy jobs in crappy conditions for basically no benefit but the "privilege" of living to see another day. Putting a few heads against a wall is no big deal. Could they afford to do it to hundreds? I doubt it.

But in the end, Roslin just says "sure, we'll rotate some people around, no more caste system," and all is well with the world.

Things did fall apart pretty badly after they found "Earth," though, just not to the extent that they probably should've. Then you had Zarek take control through a bloody coup, which didn't exactly put him on a good moral footing to reshape their society. I suppose that was always his flaw, though: he would pay lip service to political process, but in the end he'd use force to get what he wanted. It didn't matter that he had the right ideas, because he couldn't achieve them through legitimate process.

Anyway, that is one facet the show brought up from time to time but never really dug into. They never came up with a good reason to keep doing what they were doing, other than "it's the only way we can survive," and after a while that's just not good enough.

To be fair to Zarek, he only took control through a coup after exhausting other options. There was a string of episodes where it was repeatedly driven home that Adama was shutting him out and refusing to deal with him despite repeated attempts from Zarek.

Where Zarek lost a lot of legitimacy was when he just murdered the quorum in cold blood for no reason. Up until that point, I think that he had the high ground considering what a dictator Adama was becoming.

But of course they had to make him a murderous thug because the audience was supposed to be rooting for Adama.

Zarek is a particular creature known as a Demigog, he uses and manipulates the electoral process to achieve his ends, and when that process no longer works for him, he uses other means.

yes, that's what they made him out to be, because had they made him a principled democrat trying to take back the power from an autocrat then we couldn't have our little "good vs. evil" mutiny story, could we?

As I wrote, up until Zarek started shooting the quorum, I think he had right on his side.

Why do people continue to do these jobs? They aren't getting paid. Their lives are not going to improve. The fundamentals that make human society possible are gone. All you have left is a small city's worth of people, on the run from monsters that want to wipe them out for good. What's your motivation for doing anything except mere survival?

Because refining Thylium, growing fruits and vegetables, making ammo, etc. are crucial to their survival. When society or community as a whole hangs in the balance, people tend to stop caring about money.
Why do you think there are so many voluntary helpers after disasters, be it natural or manmade? These guys don't get paid either, so why do they do this?
Back in 2002, we had the worst flood of the century in Saxony, Germany. After the water had gone, my hometown looked like a frakking warzone.
I went in there with a friend and day after day, we helped clean up the mud and debris. No one had asked us to. We just went from house to house, offering help to people we had never met before.
And we weren't the only ones. The whole town was filled with people just trying to help.
This is just what humans do in a crisis.

The difference is one of duration and scale.

With an Earthly natural disaster, the wheels of government and society continue to spin. Volunteerism happens spontaneously partly because people know that the overall system is still intact, and their charity helps keep it that way. People band together in a crisis. That's community and solidarity.

But that's not what was really happening in BSG. Their government, their civilization, had been effectively annihilated. These people weren't just doing shitty jobs for no pay for a few days or weeks or months, but years. The survival of what remained of the human race depended on a handful of people continuing to do grueling jobs out of the kindness of their hearts.

And when they finally stood up and said, "no, we won't be slaves," what was the government's reaction? They locked up the ringleaders and sent a military representative to get the refinery going again. Don't think that gesture would've been lost on the refinery workers. "You want to bargain? No. You've made this a military matter. Don't push it, or we'll find a military solution." Nevertheless, Tyrol wound up on their side, with good reason. It's interesting how often Adama wrestled with himself over humanity being "worthy of survival," in terms of not committing war crimes against Cylons, not losing their humanity in the midst of what was expected to be an unending crisis, and yet he was willing to turn a blind eye to what was basically brutal slave labor.

Roslin could sit in her nice, comfy office and say "it's not an ideal situation" while kids lose their limbs to unsafe machinery. What's a few dead plebes if it keeps the FTLs running?

And you know, if that was the tack Roslin and Adama wanted to take, they could've at least been honest about it. Instead, they tried to equivocate and make it sound like things were equally bad for everyone, which of course couldn't really be true.

Sorry to go on a rant. That specific episode really rubbed me the wrong way, because it brought up very legitimate issues in the context of the series and the writers basically had no idea how to handle them, so they swept the whole thing under the rug. And we're left knowing Adama would happily blow people's brains out to keep his fleet running, making him no better than Cain.

__________________Not affiliated with those other white knights. I'm the good kind.I has a blag.

I always thought Roslin's habit of ordering cylons to be chucked out of airlocks was one of the worst things about her character. Her vindictiveness showed up quite regularly. I don't know whether she was supposed to be the one who made the hard decisions but I reckon if you sentence someone to death, you should be the one who presses the button.

To be fair to Zarek, he only took control through a coup after exhausting other options. There was a string of episodes where it was repeatedly driven home that Adama was shutting him out and refusing to deal with him despite repeated attempts from Zarek.

Where Zarek lost a lot of legitimacy was when he just murdered the quorum in cold blood for no reason. Up until that point, I think that he had the high ground considering what a dictator Adama was becoming.

But of course they had to make him a murderous thug because the audience was supposed to be rooting for Adama.

Zarek is a particular creature known as a Demigog, he uses and manipulates the electoral process to achieve his ends, and when that process no longer works for him, he uses other means.

yes, that's what they made him out to be, because had they made him a principled democrat trying to take back the power from an autocrat then we couldn't have our little "good vs. evil" mutiny story, could we?

Except Zarek was a bastard from his first appearance in season 1 and the mutiny didn't have squat to do with taking power back from an autocrat, it was basically humans don't like Cylons so they don't want upgrades to their ships from rebel Cylons so they can keep running from the totally psychotic man-child who wants them all dead.

Deckerd wrote:

I always thought Roslin's habit of ordering cylons to be chucked out of airlocks was one of the worst things about her character. Her vindictiveness showed up quite regularly. I don't know whether she was supposed to be the one who made the hard decisions but I reckon if you sentence someone to death, you should be the one who presses the button.

To be fair the Cylons did kind of kill the vast majority of humanity and were hunting them down to finish the job plus they did come back from the dead for most of the series.

Roslin could sit in her nice, comfy office and say "it's not an ideal situation" while kids lose their limbs to unsafe machinery. What's a few dead plebes if it keeps the FTLs running?

And you know, if that was the tack Roslin and Adama wanted to take, they could've at least been honest about it. Instead, they tried to equivocate and make it sound like things were equally bad for everyone, which of course couldn't really be true.

Sorry to go on a rant. That specific episode really rubbed me the wrong way, because it brought up very legitimate issues in the context of the series and the writers basically had no idea how to handle them, so they swept the whole thing under the rug. And we're left knowing Adama would happily blow people's brains out to keep his fleet running, making him no better than Cain.

I took it as an example of the flaws that all people have in the nuBSG universe, heroes and protagonists included.

That doesn't mean that I disagree about the writing. Often, it seemed that the writers used ambiguity and murkiness as tropes for creating a realistic atmosphere. But in some, if not many, of those cases I think the writers really failed to think things through, and the it's-ambiguous and it's-murky tropes were just used as cover. Whether that's from laziness, lack of time, or what I can't say, but it shows up as a flaw in the writing, and I think you indicated where one of the important instances was.

__________________“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP” — Leonard Nimoy (1931-2015)

I always thought Roslin's habit of ordering cylons to be chucked out of airlocks was one of the worst things about her character. Her vindictiveness showed up quite regularly. I don't know whether she was supposed to be the one who made the hard decisions but I reckon if you sentence someone to death, you should be the one who presses the button.

In addition to Hollywood's usual problems with writing a female character, writing a female character in authority was always going to be really weird for the new BSG, given Moore's obsession with Voyager. I think it was inevitable that Roslyn would be redeemed by love...for the Hero Adama.

sonak wrote:

1. The story was what kept me interested, because the characters did not. I have seldom encountered a TV show with so many unlikeable characters....

2. Starbuck....The idea that someone like her would last five minutes in any organization that is even remotely military in style is laughable. What's worse is the obvious love that the writers had for her, so she was so often front and center.

3.... Dark and gritty is one thing, revelling in misery as you beat the audience over the head with how sober and serious you are is another....

4. The unrealism of a "realistic" show. So RM set out to make BSG realistic sci-fi. Well, the way characters acted in a supposed military setting undermined that. Characters routinely turning guns on one another, and then the next week it's forgotten. Fights breaking out all the time. I found the actions of the various characters to routinely come out of left field.

5. It's a different show by late season 3....

6....By the end of the series, I really couldn't stand Adama or Roslyn....

7. Cylons-so... by the end of the series, what's the difference between a Cylon skin-job and a Human?...

8. The story-as I wrote, the story kept me coming back. It was clever the way they kept bringing up mysteries to solve to bring you in-where is Earth? Who are the Final Five? Who is the Final Cylon, etc. Even when I dislike or was neutral about the characters, I thought the overall story was good. Until...

9. The resolution....

10. Lack of re-watchability factor. The lack of humor, unlikeable characters, intense serialization of storylines, and the nature of the series relying so much on "mysteries" means that it doesn't have a high rewatchability factor to me. The storylines were very good, and it kept me interested, but I would never buy this series in any format, because once you've seen how the mythology and story does(and doesn't) resolve, there's not a lot of enjoyment to get over it.

Very good post. Despite (or is that because of?) it honesty, it makes a more convincing explanation of what some people like about the new BSG, despite it's many writing flaws. Some comments follow.

1. The new BSG was recast as a 9/11 story. This led to one terrific episode, 33, but the equation of 9/11 with the near annihilation of humanity led the storyline right into the septic tank as far as I was concerned. But I have to say that the characters don't have to be likable, they just have to be touch something in us. Maybe, like Walter White on Breaking Bad, we only need to realize that we too could break.

2. Yes indeed, Starbuck was ludicrous. There is a general point here, which is that wishfulfillment characters are for lots of us less interesting than characters who actually interact with the others (instead of just playing out fantasy script,) who have genuine motivations that spring from inner needs engaging with their environment.

3. There is a certain question of taste here. Some people like wallowing in suffering hero fantasies, others don't. It is especially annoying to have people insist that when we see people going about their regular day jobs they've had for months we are seeing true torment.

4. Very true. As a supposed exercise in realism, the new BSG was a spectacular failure.

5. As some have noted above, there were hints of the religious themes from the beginning. They were however introduced as the beliefs of certain characters. By season three, the series held these beliefs. This really is a huge difference. The show didn't critically treat any of its religious themes. I know many people prefer religion, even fictional religion, not be viewed critically, but I think it is appallingly dishonest writing.

6. I have to repeat, it's not a matter of "standing" Adama or Roslyn, it's first of all believing in Adama or Roslyn. I could believe in neither. It's also a question of relevance. Adama's unbelief should have been shattered and his subsequent quest for the truth should have been part of his character. Most of us can find interest in someone's pursuit of religious answers (given the assumption that religion is real,) regardless of whether we like Adama. Similarly, Roslyn's prophetic visions should have dominated her life, given her situation, but, no, they just come and go as plot requires. Yet we should be interested in a ruler who guides policy at God's whim, regardless of whether we like Roslyn.

7. The difference between Cylons and humans is race and religion. Cylon race and religion is worthy of instant extermination by God's own hand. This kind of thinking is why I find the series not just another badly written TV show but actively offensive.

8. If you're not offended by the underlying premises in our real world context, the mysteries were dangled cunningly enough.

9. Unlike life, in mysteries the point is not the journey, it's what you find there, which is to say, the answers.

10. This is why most serialized shows do worse in repeats, so it's not unique to new BSG. The Soap Channel proves that some people do like to repeat serials but its ratings also prove this is a minority taste.

__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.

Zarek is a particular creature known as a Demigog, he uses and manipulates the electoral process to achieve his ends, and when that process no longer works for him, he uses other means.

yes, that's what they made him out to be, because had they made him a principled democrat trying to take back the power from an autocrat then we couldn't have our little "good vs. evil" mutiny story, could we?

Except Zarek was a bastard from his first appearance in season 1 and the mutiny didn't have squat to do with taking power back from an autocrat, it was basically humans don't like Cylons so they don't want upgrades to their ships from rebel Cylons so they can keep running from the totally psychotic man-child who wants them all dead.

Deckerd wrote:

I always thought Roslin's habit of ordering cylons to be chucked out of airlocks was one of the worst things about her character. Her vindictiveness showed up quite regularly. I don't know whether she was supposed to be the one who made the hard decisions but I reckon if you sentence someone to death, you should be the one who presses the button.

To be fair the Cylons did kind of kill the vast majority of humanity and were hunting them down to finish the job plus they did come back from the dead for most of the series.

If you know a cylon is going to be resurrected, killing one does not amount to murder. In fact Sharon/Athena asked to be killed in order to be resurrected on a Base ship so she could rescue her child.

I think the original Battlestar Galactica made light of most of humanity's destruction, with Starbuck being just as happy go lucky as usually, and interested in winning cubits and visiting this space going casino in order to win a fortune, it also was bothersome that these characters did not have last names or seem to have family members other than the ones in Apollo's family. I think more than a few people could reasonably be expected to be motivated by feelings of revenge due to the destruction of most of their race by the Cylons, and many are decidedly reluctant to see Cylons as anything other than the very definition of evil. A person who has lost most or all of his family and friends is not likely to be the forgiving sort, or be willing to give the perpetrators of the act a second chance or the benefit of the doubt in anything. Any character who just shrugs his shoulders at genocide and lets bygones be bygones, probably has ice water for blood.

^^I think the original series religious premise is really Brigham Young leading the Mormons to Deseret. Grief over the demise of a civilization doomed by sin is not appropriate in this context. I think that criticism of the original series misunderstands what it was, and is therefore wholly wrong.

__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.

<Sigh> Again with the "It was a 9/11 parallel". NuBSG has almost nothing in common with 9/11, less than 4000 people were killed (Not to make light of it, it was a horrific crime, but, doesn't compare to NuBSG annihilation), a drop in the bucket compared to our 6 Billion population.

In NuBSG, less than 100,000, from 12 planets survived to make the Exodus.

After 9/11, Humanity wasn't running for lives and being hunted and exterminated when we slowed down from running top speed. Maybe it was the writer's intent to make that parallel, I don't know, but, I sure don't see the Parallel, there's nothing at all in common other than a difference in Religion.

The Sudan, for one, is a much more apt comparison, and there are many other historical events that are far more apt comparisons.

__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?

Last edited by Sindatur; September 14 2012 at 03:00 PM.
Reason: Cleaned up the post to make it more clear where I was talking about NuBSG and 9/11

Whether the cylons resurrected or not is not the point. If you want to consider yourself on the moral high ground opposing your foe, you don't sink to their level. Barbarism can't be defended ever. There was an interesting moment (one of the very few) later on in the show when a model 6 killed a soldier because the soldier had watched her previous incarnation die slowly. "I didn't do anything to her, why did she do that?" was the cylon's gut reaction. There seemed to be a huge disconnect here between what the cylons as a people did and what individual grunts did. Much like, y'know, human soldiers? The show started off with one unified group trying to get rid of another owing to their dedication to one ideal. By the end it was just a big old mess with everybody being exactly the same. But then they were the same from the start; it just took them far too long to reach that conclusion.

<Sigh> Again with the "It was a 9/11 parallel". NuBSG has almost nothing in common with 9/11, less than 4000 people were killed (Not to make light of it, it was a horrific crime, but, doesn't compare to NuBSG annihilation), a drop in the bucket compared to our 6 Billion population.

In NuBSG, less than 100,000, from 12 planets survived to make the Exodus.

After 9/11, Humanity wasn't running for lives and being hunted and exterminated when we slowed down from running top speed. Maybe it was the writer's intent to make that parallel, I don't know, but, I sure don't see the Parallel, there's nothing at all in common other than a difference in Religion.

The Sudan, for one, is a much more apt comparison, and there are many other historical events that are far more apt comparisons.

The 9/11 parallels were deliberate and elaborated upon by Ron Moore--you know, the executive producer and showrunner. I don't know how you can discount his own words about the show's themes unless you think it is entirely a matter of how the individual viewer interprets it--which is a fair position to take. However, it was a deliberate 9/11 allegory on the part of the show's creators. There is no denying that.

Deckerd wrote:

Whether the cylons resurrected or not is not the point. If you want to consider yourself on the moral high ground opposing your foe, you don't sink to their level. Barbarism can't be defended ever. There was an interesting moment (one of the very few) later on in the show when a model 6 killed a soldier because the soldier had watched her previous incarnation die slowly. "I didn't do anything to her, why did she do that?" was the cylon's gut reaction. There seemed to be a huge disconnect here between what the cylons as a people did and what individual grunts did. Much like, y'know, human soldiers? The show started off with one unified group trying to get rid of another owing to their dedication to one ideal. By the end it was just a big old mess with everybody being exactly the same. But then they were the same from the start; it just took them far too long to reach that conclusion.

That was certainly one of the show's (clumsily handled) themes: that humanity should not just survive, but be worthy of it, by not abandoning the very things that make them human, such as a sense of ethics, compassion, and morality. What it ended up requiring was for them to recognize that the Cylons were human, for all intents and purposes. Which meant that trying to wipe them out was just as heinous a crime as what the Cylons had done to the Colonies.

Something the show mentioned on occasion--and a point I think was often lost--is that it's fine to have a strong sense of morality when you have a functioning, stable civilization in which to exercise it. If the occasional person has to die for the greater good, so be it, because you can afford the loss, and the enduring stability of your society trumps that.

But the surviving humans sticking by their principles in the situation presented by BSG? If holding to those principles means your entire race goes extinct, is that really a wise choice? When it came down to it, they did whatever they had to in order to survive, no matter how unseemly it was. Where I think the show erred was the way it framed the issue. When the alternative is the utter destruction of your species, then yes, you do abandon those principles and do what you must, because those principles will die forever along with your civilization.

There were things Adama said he wouldn't/couldn't do because he couldn't "live with it." Which I'm sure would have been a great comfort when the rest of the human race was extinguished by the Cylons. His personal discomfort with it should have been beside the point, and he should have been smart enough to see that.

To sum up: principles that preserve and stabilize your society are worth keeping; principles that will get your civilization annihilated are not worth keeping. The series was never really willing to have an honest conversation about this. Characters and storylines vacillated back and forth on it, which may be true to life, but makes for lousy narrative.

__________________Not affiliated with those other white knights. I'm the good kind.I has a blag.

I always thought Roslin's habit of ordering cylons to be chucked out of airlocks was one of the worst things about her character. Her vindictiveness showed up quite regularly. I don't know whether she was supposed to be the one who made the hard decisions but I reckon if you sentence someone to death, you should be the one who presses the button.

In addition to Hollywood's usual problems with writing a female character, writing a female character in authority was always going to be really weird for the new BSG, given Moore's obsession with Voyager. I think it was inevitable that Roslyn would be redeemed by love...for the Hero Adama.

sonak wrote:

1. The story was what kept me interested, because the characters did not. I have seldom encountered a TV show with so many unlikeable characters....

2. Starbuck....The idea that someone like her would last five minutes in any organization that is even remotely military in style is laughable. What's worse is the obvious love that the writers had for her, so she was so often front and center.

3.... Dark and gritty is one thing, revelling in misery as you beat the audience over the head with how sober and serious you are is another....

4. The unrealism of a "realistic" show. So RM set out to make BSG realistic sci-fi. Well, the way characters acted in a supposed military setting undermined that. Characters routinely turning guns on one another, and then the next week it's forgotten. Fights breaking out all the time. I found the actions of the various characters to routinely come out of left field.

5. It's a different show by late season 3....

6....By the end of the series, I really couldn't stand Adama or Roslyn....

7. Cylons-so... by the end of the series, what's the difference between a Cylon skin-job and a Human?...

8. The story-as I wrote, the story kept me coming back. It was clever the way they kept bringing up mysteries to solve to bring you in-where is Earth? Who are the Final Five? Who is the Final Cylon, etc. Even when I dislike or was neutral about the characters, I thought the overall story was good. Until...

9. The resolution....

10. Lack of re-watchability factor. The lack of humor, unlikeable characters, intense serialization of storylines, and the nature of the series relying so much on "mysteries" means that it doesn't have a high rewatchability factor to me. The storylines were very good, and it kept me interested, but I would never buy this series in any format, because once you've seen how the mythology and story does(and doesn't) resolve, there's not a lot of enjoyment to get over it.

Very good post. Despite (or is that because of?) it honesty, it makes a more convincing explanation of what some people like about the new BSG, despite it's many writing flaws. Some comments follow.

1. The new BSG was recast as a 9/11 story. This led to one terrific episode, 33, but the equation of 9/11 with the near annihilation of humanity led the storyline right into the septic tank as far as I was concerned. But I have to say that the characters don't have to be likable, they just have to be touch something in us. Maybe, like Walter White on Breaking Bad, we only need to realize that we too could break.

2. Yes indeed, Starbuck was ludicrous. There is a general point here, which is that wishfulfillment characters are for lots of us less interesting than characters who actually interact with the others (instead of just playing out fantasy script,) who have genuine motivations that spring from inner needs engaging with their environment.

3. There is a certain question of taste here. Some people like wallowing in suffering hero fantasies, others don't. It is especially annoying to have people insist that when we see people going about their regular day jobs they've had for months we are seeing true torment.

4. Very true. As a supposed exercise in realism, the new BSG was a spectacular failure.

5. As some have noted above, there were hints of the religious themes from the beginning. They were however introduced as the beliefs of certain characters. By season three, the series held these beliefs. This really is a huge difference. The show didn't critically treat any of its religious themes. I know many people prefer religion, even fictional religion, not be viewed critically, but I think it is appallingly dishonest writing.

6. I have to repeat, it's not a matter of "standing" Adama or Roslyn, it's first of all believing in Adama or Roslyn. I could believe in neither. It's also a question of relevance. Adama's unbelief should have been shattered and his subsequent quest for the truth should have been part of his character. Most of us can find interest in someone's pursuit of religious answers (given the assumption that religion is real,) regardless of whether we like Adama. Similarly, Roslyn's prophetic visions should have dominated her life, given her situation, but, no, they just come and go as plot requires. Yet we should be interested in a ruler who guides policy at God's whim, regardless of whether we like Roslyn.

7. The difference between Cylons and humans is race and religion. Cylon race and religion is worthy of instant extermination by God's own hand. This kind of thinking is why I find the series not just another badly written TV show but actively offensive.

8. If you're not offended by the underlying premises in our real world context, the mysteries were dangled cunningly enough.

9. Unlike life, in mysteries the point is not the journey, it's what you find there, which is to say, the answers.

10. This is why most serialized shows do worse in repeats, so it's not unique to new BSG. The Soap Channel proves that some people do like to repeat serials but its ratings also prove this is a minority taste.

Could you maybe elaborate on your response to point 7? I'm not sure what you meant.

I did find the theme of the differences between Cylon and Human religion interesting, but also thought that the idea of Humans going back to full-throated polytheism to be kind of unrealistic.(well maybe not back...)