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The great big thread of Nony vs. Israel

Posted on: September 16, 2011 - 2:33am

A_Nony_Mouse

Posts: 2880

Joined: 2008-04-23

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The great big thread of Nony vs. Israel

For those who read my recommendations of The Jerusalem Post and Haaretz this is old news. For those who have better things to do with their time, such as forming opinion absent knowledge of the subject, the last week has become an admission of the obvious.

The one thing that was the unmentionable 800 lb gorilla in the room for months started being mentioned as an aside about a week ago by both the US and Israel. On Thursday in Israel the PM's Office said that when he spoke to the UN Netanyahu would address both the desire for peaceful negotiations and the 800 lb gorilla.

The gorilla is the fact that a state of Palestine can and presumably will take Israel before the ICJ, the International Court of Justice, for war crimes related to the occupation. Elvis has entered the building! Israelis have no defense. They are guilty as charged.

The gorilla is in the open. Izziehuggers take to the hills. Israel has routed your defense of Israel.

Netanyahu told his interlocutors that granting the PA the status of a state would allow the Palestinians to go to the International Criminal Court in The Hague over issues like settlement construction. "But as long as it is less than a state, I'm ready to talk about it," a source familiar with the conversation quoted him as saying.

It is an admission of war crimes plain and simple.

Please folks, stop telling me I do not know what is going on but you do. Anyone who follows events in Israel would never have questioned Israel's war crimes.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

...Nothing special to explain - My mind raced past my typing skills and my hands couldn't catch up. I meant to say "]The fact that you'd like the Muslims to be under Islamic tyranny is no better than wanting the Muslims to be under Jewish tyranny. Damn shame you can't see that.

What happens to Palestinians is their business. In no way does it justify the continuation of Jewish tyranny.

The hubris of Jews being good for the poor, benighted Muslims has been a theme in zionism from the beginning. It has always been a disgusting attitude. Clearly history has shown the Palestinians do not have as high an opinion of Jews as Jews have of themselves.

Death to all tyrants!

Unless you like them or they're "elected"?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Not trying to play any shell game. The fact is that the Christians would like to see people who don't think that Jesus is the son of God dead. That includes the Muslims and the Jews. It's about time that both groups in the middle east realized who their true enemy is.

The fact that you'd like the Jews to be under Islamic tyranny is no better than wanting the Muslims to be under Jewish tyranny. Damn shame you can't see that.

Except the Palestinian and Israeli Christians. Wear the blinders a little less thick, Gadfly.

Don't forget the Palestinian Christians who suffer no legal disabilities as they do in Israel. In Israel the Christians are "Arabs" too.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)

I hope they taught there one important thing, a true sacrifice is voluntary and self-initiated.

Not really. The only use philosophy can be is in formulating the concepts.

For instance you throw around these terms like 'sacrifice and voluntary'. The concepts are never really defined. If one analyzes situations, you can see that sacrifice probably doesn't exist especially among theists. Science tells us we have no real free will to do anything 'voluntarily'.

Luminon wrote:

Yeah, but this is what I call growing up and maturing. A child is like a small animal, cute but usually self-centered. That's a biologic imperative.

I call 'growing up' learning to play the game of survival in the adult world. We learn to behave as adults because if we don't, we don't get what we want. It's still a game of complete self-centeredness. Nature has given us empathogens so we feel good caring about others. But this is only for our own survival.

Luminon wrote:

We are capable of sacrifice for something we see as higher than ourselves. Usually something abstract, like the humanity, nation, freedom, medical science, and so on. I doubt Muslims would sacrifice themselves so eagerly only for 72 virgins with no divine majesty of Allah backing up the whole business. Sometimes the sacrifice even goes without thinking or ideals, like reflexive saving a family member from death. There are many cases like that, where the calculating rational mind has no say.

Can you give an example of when you or anyone actually did any real sacrifice? All this so called sacrifice is like this '72 virgins' sacrifice. It is giving up something in the present to get a greater reward later.

If our ancestors had any other imperative than survival and passing on DNA, they would have lost out in evolution and we wouldn't be here to argue about this. Nature's only imperative is our survival and that of offspring. And that is all we really sacrifice for.

Luminon wrote:

There are many imperatives and when the conditions are not extreme, biological imperatives become weak and social or even personal ones take over. There are even a few people who have transpersonal imperatives. This is why the original population of Europe declines, people want contraception and careers, reproduction can wait. This is by the way the only real method to eliminate population, wars don't really decrease the numbers, there's always baby boom at the end of war.

But this European and American culture of material satisfaction is being bred out of existence by low birth rates. Same thing is Israel, the Palestinians have a much higher birth rate. So the culture with the higher birth rate is always going to win out, right? So with no mandated controls on family size, we're always going to have a lot of population pressure.

Luminon wrote:

To me it looks like the simulative power of brain allows us to become whatever we want to become. Do you want to be a purely rational being? Do you want to be a truly selfless person, not thinking or feeling of yourself at all? What about a fighter, a believer, an addict?

I think science tells us that we already are all addicts. We have chemical bodies. Everything we do is with the expectation of feeling better.

The reason there is so much misery is that our biological imperatives come into conflict with others'. We're all mainly in competition with the rest of humanity so there is little opportunity to cooperate for our common good.

Luminon wrote:

You can't throw people overboard, just because they won't become rational overnight. Until then, just manipulate them emotionally for their own good.

But if you do the math and if women keep having 12 babies, there are no resources available to take of all these. So the only option is Palestinians live out lives of want and blame everything on the Jews. So the problem will never get solved until they all blow each other up.

Luminon wrote:

Yes, I know there are technical means, some brain parts react to microwave stimulation, etc. But influencing people like that is very bad for public relations.

What do you mean? These people are willingly going along with treatment to feel better.

Luminon wrote:

But look at it from the practical side. Technologic advancement is good, but it can not work without moral advancement.

And if science keeps telling us that we're all ego-centric hedonists without freewill to be moral? There has to be a biological advantage to moral advancement right?

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen

Why do you support murderers and thieves who run a military tyranny over millions of others? It is an elementary principle of law that all actions in furtherance of a crime are also crimes.

The occupation is criminal. Jews who kill to maintain the occupation cannot claim self defense. They are murderers. But you know that.

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Really?

Keep in mind I am invoking the formulation desired by the government of Israel and using jewish and israeli interchangeably. Feel free to mentally add "and democratic" after jewish in expressions like jewish dictatorship. There is no significant jewish objection to the desired israeli formulation so please don't complain to me.

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Why do you hate them so much? You're more obsessed than a Muslim extremist with jews.

Why are you defending a jewish military tranny that has enslaved millions of Palestnians? Why are you defending murderers and thieves? Do you have no self-respect?

Quote:

What did they do to you to make you so tunnel-visioned in your overwhelming, all consuming hatred for everything to do with the jewish people?

I thought the grievous fault of decades of tyrannical jewish rule over millions for the purpose of stealing their land, their property and means of livelihood requires hatred from right-thinking people.

Are you suggesting such things should be loved for their actions?

Besides. We have been over all this before. Are you hoping to do better the second time around?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

...Nothing special to explain - My mind raced past my typing skills and my hands couldn't catch up. I meant to say "]The fact that you'd like the Muslims to be under Islamic tyranny is no better than wanting the Muslims to be under Jewish tyranny. Damn shame you can't see that.

What happens to Palestinians is their business. In no way does it justify the continuation of Jewish tyranny.

The hubris of Jews being good for the poor, benighted Muslims has been a theme in zionism from the beginning. It has always been a disgusting attitude. Clearly history has shown the Palestinians do not have as high an opinion of Jews as Jews have of themselves.

Death to all tyrants!

Unless you like them or they're "elected"?

No rational person should like tyrants. It just encourages others. Up until the egyptian protests started showing a chance of success the US always praised egyptian democracy. If the US can turn a blind eye to Egypt no wonder it can turn a blind eye to Israel for even even though its crimes are greater.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

Not trying to play any shell game. The fact is that the Christians would like to see people who don't think that Jesus is the son of God dead. That includes the Muslims and the Jews. It's about time that both groups in the middle east realized who their true enemy is.

The fact that you'd like the Jews to be under Islamic tyranny is no better than wanting the Muslims to be under Jewish tyranny. Damn shame you can't see that.

Except the Palestinian and Israeli Christians. Wear the blinders a little less thick, Gadfly.

Don't forget the Palestinian Christians who suffer no legal disabilities as they do in Israel. In Israel the Christians are "Arabs" too.

According to Netanyahu, the purpose of his visit to the UN is to make sure that the Palestinian "move to circumvent negotiations does not succeed, and… to present our truth, which is that we are not foreigners and we have rights going back 4,000 years."

A typical crazy Jew who holds (the highest) political power in Israel.This is right out of the Christian, redneck fundie playbook. It seems to be part of the redneck Jewish playbook also.

I am still waiting for support for the nonsense claim that Palestinian political leaders are also religious fruitcakes.

As a matter of fact I am unaware of any PM or president or king of any middle eastern Muslim country who has said anything this crazy. I don't recall even Amadenihad saying something as loony as this but I admit he is the only one of the current crop who might be as crazy as Israel's elected leader and tyrant over millions of Palestinians.

A long time ago I started collecting text files for evidence but discovered when it comes to Israel I really didn't need it as I never had to wait more than week before one of its newspapers would publish fresh evidence of even the most obnoxious fact about Israel.

...

Did you hear the one about the eskimo who converted to Judaism? He is now one of the frozen people.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

OK Nony, why do you keep asking for proof that they are religious fruitcakes? I would think that to be terribly obvious. Since it is clearly not to you, I will most condescendingly provide from wikipedia:

Agreed Vastet. With so many threads on the same subject, I can't track which one Nony said this in but he has this idea that if there was one off duty soldier on a bus, that made it a military target. OK but what about all the other people on the bus who were trying to go to work or the local mall? The Geneva Convention is fairly specific about non combatants not being killed. The Hague probably does as well but that is a series of different treaties and they interact in strange ways.

If the UN is a promoter of world peace, why should any country be recognized that organizes and names itself on the basis of a particular race/religion, including Isreal? If you want peace in the middle east this is what would have to happen:

Have a single state without laws or a name favoring one group or religion.

Have equal rights.

Get rid of land ownership, this would probably mean the end of religion since everyone's sky daddy all 'gives' them all the land, and often tells them to commit genocide against the infidels and unbelievers.

Mandatory birth and immigration controls to limit population pressures.

If people don't want to agree to these, I guess they really don't want peace that much.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen

OK Nony, why do you keep asking for proof that they are religious fruitcakes? I would think that to be terribly obvious. Since it is clearly not to you, I will most condescendingly provide from wikipedia:

"You feelthy english Kinigget! Wait right there while I ridicule you a third time!"

Wikipedia? The ultimate anonymous source?

Which POLITICAL LEADER is as crazy a religious redneck as Netanyahu? Please produce evidence of their statements. Anonymous sources never count. Wikipedia is not an acceptable reference EVER not even for US high schools. Nor am I interested in the cop out of your faith the references say what they anonymous sources imply they say.

If you ever find evidence be sure to produce it. Jewish propaganda, aka Hasbara, is never of interest.

BTW: If you really insist I can probably dig out the references where Israel was one of the early financial supporters of Hamas if you like. I am still looking for background on the "Palestinian terrorists" in the West Bank operated by Shin Bet. At the moment I have the name of only one operation from an article in Haaretz run last week.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

Not necessarily. Not all jews support Israel. And not all jews in Palestine are military or occupiers. All Israeli's, maybe, but even though that is significantly more likely, it still isn't certain.

All Jews who support Israel are war criminals. The first squatters settled in Hebron 44 years ago in October. That is a war crime. They are still in Hebron and supported by Israel along with a half million other criminal squatters. 44 years is sufficient to establish it as the criminal policy of Israel. Anyone who supports Israel is supporting multiple war crimes and a criminal nation. Anyone who supports Israel supports a criminal nation. No different from supporting Nazi Germany, period.

If you know of any who object please provide their names. The back of an envelop should be sufficient space.

EVERYONE knows whatever the popularity of a truism there are always a few dissenters. It is never required to acknowledge those few when using the word all. It is not required even if the subject is Jewish criminals. I do not accept demands for special treatment. Keep this in mind next time you talk about believers or southerners. Even I know all rednecks are not as I paint them. There are a few not so far around the bend as the vast majority. Same for Jews. We KNOW that. There is no need for qualification.

You are an atheist, not a Jew. Why your interest in members of a religious group? Why are you defending members of a religion? Particularly such primitive religion?

I have previously acknowledged for the record the existence of groups such as Naturei Karta which are considered fringe groups by mainstream Jews who are against the Israel. If you can name a few others which are of significant size and which are not considered fringe groups please let me know. As I said I have looked for them and not found them. If you know of them please post their names and URLs.

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And any Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, or incites a suicide bomber, or assassinates or attempts to assassinate anyone is also a war criminal. Swords cut both ways.

By international law the nation which conducts an unlawful occupation is a lawful target in any manner including saturation bombing and nuking as in WWII. Do not complain to me. I did not force Israel to sign Geneva IV which makes it liable to being such a target without recourse save whining.

Any and all forms of resistance to occupation is always lawful unless the occupation is in compliance with Hague V and Geneva IV. Israel has acknowledged Geneva IV applies. Geneva IV requires administration to be for the benefit of the occupied people save in matters of military necessity. If you are not familiar with the military do not stick your foot in it and claim the squattertowns are a military necessity. They are all war crimes.

Any and all attacks on Israel are justified in international law because of Israel's war crimes.

Again, you are not a Jew. You are an atheist. Why the interest in Jews? Would you defend Roman Catholics in the same manner? Anglicans? What was your position regarding the IRA? Were you defending the Irish or the British? Why is your interest only in the followers of Judaism?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

Agreed Vastet. With so many threads on the same subject, I can't track which one Nony said this in but he has this idea that if there was one off duty soldier on a bus, that made it a military target. OK but what about all the other people on the bus who were trying to go to work or the local mall? The Geneva Convention is fairly specific about non combatants not being killed. The Hague probably does as well but that is a series of different treaties and they interact in strange ways.

Going back the Hague V on land warfare it reqjuires civilians to be protected from military attack. We all agree to that. But it also says that the military cannot hide among civilians and claim to be protected. Hague V says it is lawful to attack the military when they are among civilians. Any civilians harmed in the process ACCORDING TO HAGUE V are the responsibility of the military who hid among the civilians. What about them? In this case the soldier is responsible for their deaths. He caused it according to the treaty.

Do not complain to me. Get the treaty changed. I did not write it. I did not force Israel to sign it.

Keep the military away from civilians. Do not let your military use civilian equipment like buses for military purposes. Then there is a legitimate complaint if civilians are harmed. Unless that is done the military makes the civilians lawful targets by their actions.

Speaking of hypocritical memory. I also noted that "hiding among civilians" has been used by Israel when it targets a single suspect and manages to murder 18 civilians in the process -- the old one ton bomb in an apartment building in the middle of the night trick. ISRAEL has used the SAME thing I say applies also to Palestinians. Why do you not remember Israel using exactly the same justification?

You people are NOT Jews but you certainly are making a great effort to imitate Jews and make them appear to be whining hypocrites.

WHY?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

Pfft. Wikipedia was unreliable.... 10 years ago. Get with the times man. You can look at edit histories and sourcesto make sure the information is accurate. And it rarely isn't accurate these days. Wikipedia can no longer be easily and significantly vandalised for a significant amount of time. There are more people keeping it viable then there are vandals.

Well for one thing, I rarely talk about them. Why? Because I live in Texas and what is happening on the other side of the planet is not a priority for my thoughts. Unlike you who talks about it CONSTANTLY.

You're obsessed. Did they kill your family and rape you on top of their dead bodies?

Because that's how you act.

I don't like Muslims. Fuck them.

I don't like their religion. I don't like how they treat their women like property. I don't like how some fucking muslim will give his ten year old daughter to a 60 year old man so he can fuck her.

I've been in muslim countries. Several of them. And they disgust me.

I've also been in Israel, and they are a fantastic people.

Shut the fuck up about it already you stinking Muzzie. Your non-stop one topic mind is annoying.

Talk about the fucking weather or something. Talk about anything for once other than how much you hate jews.

I bet you have a framed photograph of Hitler next to your bed and you jerk off to WWII holocaust documentaries. Go find some fucking muslim forum where they will cheer you on.

You want to know something about Palestine? I'll tell you about these sick fucks.

They have their own TV channel you know. You know what these sick, disgusting excuses for humanity do on their fucking channel?

They bring 5 year old kids on for an interview. You know why they selected these kids?

Because their mommy blew herself up on a bus in Israel and killed 6 jews.

So the interviewer, a fucking muslim palestinian fucktard, asks them how many jews their mommy killed.

And the fucking kids know the answer. And he beams at them and tells them how fucking heroic their mommy was. Some 45 year old jew sitting there going to the fucking store or something to get milk, or to buy diapers for their grandchild, or to go visit their dying parents gets blown the fuck up for no other reason than they allow some stupid, sick fucking Muslims to roam around their fucking country.

They indoctrinate their kids from birth to think Jews are transformed pigs or apes. Dehumanize them in their children's minds from fucking birth. So they will be good little suicide bombers. They send their women and children to fucking blow themselves up to kill some random jewish person for fucking giggles.

And then they run around and dance, and chant God is great, and fire their fucking AKs into the air like a bunch of fucking animals.

You know that according to their religion they're instructed to kill YOU. You know this don't you?

You've rejected the idea of god. They would fucking kill you and go home with a big fuzzy feeling in their heart.

Moreso they'd tape you sitting in their midst while the dumb shits stand around you pointing AKs at your fucking head. Then they'd take a rusty knife and saw your head off, taping the entire thing.

And they're fucking proud of this shit. They'll record it and air it all over the internet.

One more infidel dead. Next.

On fucking 9/11 the dumb fucks were cheering their asses off as the towers collapsed. Innocent people just sitting at their desk to provide an income for their families died in droves because of these sick fucks.

And even here in America, where the attacks happened, they were dancing around their quicky marts chanting how great god was.

Muslim gangs all over the planet were crawling over each other to claim responsibility for the deaths of thousands of innocent people that were killed for just going to work.

And don't come telling me about some historic shit the Jews did that you don't agree with.

Because you are using it to justify the killing of innocent random people.

No people is perfect. The jews certainly aren't. But us Americans, don't even get me started. We invaded this land and wiped out the Native Americans. We herded them onto the crappiest pieces of land we could find, preventing them from hunting and providing for themselves. Then fed them rotting meat and when they snuck off the reservation to find something for their families to eat we'd call it an uprising and kill them and their families.

Yet for some reason the Native Americans aren't blowing themselves up on buses in St Louis to kill some white americans.

Why the fuck is that?

Native Americans aren't teaching their children to hate white Americans from birth.

We fucked these people over horribly.

No rockets are flying out of fucking reservations to kill and terrorize white Americans. They don't have any interviews with 5 year old kids talking about how wonderful their mommy was because she killed some crackers that were sitting on a bus minding their own business.

What's up with that?

Native Americans are a DAMN better people than the stinking Palestinians.

Israel has made Palestine that way. Now they face the music. When some bunch of fucks drop a bomb on your house killing your family and the guy the fucks wanted to kill wasn't even nearby and you never even get an apology you can slam the victims. Until then I fully support the nuking of Israel and their twisted and cruel tactics that force people to do drastic and irrational things just to defend themselves.

Most natives who died during colonisation died from plagues and social issues that people were oblivious to. Israel is anything BUT oblivious as to their constant hammering of Palestinian civilians with tanks, bombs, planes, and a fucking army.

Noony, you have this false "all or nothing" attitude and seem to be crack addicted to the idea that Palestine would be a secular state if given one. THAT IS JUST PLAIN NUTS.

You still cant get it through your head that I do accept that there are people who are secular in Palestine, but they are NOT the majority and Hamas IS NOT a secular organization.

Now, having said that, I just watch our Christian version of Jewish fundie's "Rick Perry" wrongly blasting Obama for his rightfull, or more neutral stance that both sides have blood on their hands.

You need to drop your naive attitude of "virtue of the oppressed". If I am capable of condemning Israel for it's land grab, and still milking the Haulocaust to justify their land grab, and the bullshit support right wing Christians use Jews for biblical "end times" prophecy, you most certainly should be awake enough to see that there are plenty of Muslims who want to kill Jews because Allah said it was their land.

This conflict started when Islam became a spin off of the god/s of Abraham. To ignore this is absurd. To pretend that no Muslim has any religious motive to kill, IS NUTS.

It is not all or nothing. It is not "The Palestinians are the good guys and the Jews are the bad guys". No There are good guys on both sides and bad GOVERNANCE on both sides and bad actions on both sides.

But you are NOT going to get me to support Palestine right now no matter how much sympathy I might have for some of the few who are simply caught up in it.

I am not even for a two state solution. I think the Israel flag is about as secular as a fucking cross and an insult to the concept of a secular government. I would like to see, not that it would happen, the U N force a mix on both. If they are so intermingled it would make fighting more impossible.

Whereas now, there is too much space for both sides to conduct murder on the other. It is easy to kill from a distance.

I think what might work, not that I would advocate doing this. Is stick all the idiots on both sides who like the fighting in a room full of kids, and each side take turns slitting the throats of the kids of the other. I wonder how quickly the politics and boarders and bullshit would disappear? It would quickly become clear to both sides how absurd all this bullshit is.

Oprah, as much as I despise her, did have one show that demonstrated the absurdity labels inflict harm on humanity. She invited a racist on her show and stuck a black kid in with the white kid in the green room without telling the racist. Then she showed the racist the video of the kids getting along. The next day, the racist renounced here views. It's sad that kids have to teach adults lessons.

I have no doubt if you conducted the same experiment with Palestinian kids with Israeli kids, without the parents telling them who to hate or which clan to support, the same thing would happen.

NOW you are caught up in the same adult bullshit and don't even see it. You have been pulled in by sympathetic appeal wrongly missing the fact that these same people teach as much hate of the other side to their kids as you accuse RIGHTFULLY Israelis of. Which is why I say it is not good to blindly support either side as a default position and every action has to be case by case.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind". And as far as I am concerned neither side seems to give one shit about what they sell their young.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

OK Nony, why do you keep asking for proof that they are religious fruitcakes? I would think that to be terribly obvious. Since it is clearly not to you, I will most condescendingly provide from wikipedia:

"You feelthy english Kinigget! Wait right there while I ridicule you a third time!"

Wikipedia? The ultimate anonymous source?

Which POLITICAL LEADER is as crazy a religious redneck as Netanyahu? Please produce evidence of their statements. Anonymous sources never count. Wikipedia is not an acceptable reference EVER not even for US high schools. Nor am I interested in the cop out of your faith the references say what they anonymous sources imply they say.

If you ever find evidence be sure to produce it. Jewish propaganda, aka Hasbara, is never of interest.

BTW: If you really insist I can probably dig out the references where Israel was one of the early financial supporters of Hamas if you like. I am still looking for background on the "Palestinian terrorists" in the West Bank operated by Shin Bet. At the moment I have the name of only one operation from an article in Haaretz run last week.

Your attitude in your signature is just as stupid as the religious "sins of the father". I today am not responsible for slavery nor was I responsable for the wrongful land grab European Christians did in killing off Native Americans. But you have to be out of your mind to think I should give a damned thing to blacks or Native Americans, other than "Humans shouldn't do that in the future".

NOW what you should do, instead of dwelling on the past over things that will never be resolved through violence, is to deal with the here and now.

BOTH sides need to stop pointing fingers and stop this stupid fight over FUCKING DESERT!

The current land grab DID start after WW2 wrongfully by Jews after the world had RIGHTFUL sympathy of 6 million being slaughtered.

But what is done is done and you are NOT going to get Jews to go anywhere. And Jews are not going to get Muslims to go anywhere. So rather than get into violent pissing contests BOTH sides need to clean their own houses. NEITHER side is doing that.

Your finger pointing is a childish and deadly as Israel's childish and deadly playground mentality. And I am sick of both sides.

Again, the only way I will support Palestine collectively is if it becomes secular and embraces pluralism, which I have not seen a damned lick of hit of, other than SOME and far too few in Palestine. Start working on that first then you will get my sympathy.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

By your logic a good 99.99999% of Earths population are war criminals. Anyone who supports Israel, the US, China, Russia, Korea (N or S), France, England, Iran, Syria, Somalia, Canada ... Fine. I guess being a war criminal is a standard thing, so we should just get rid of the term "criminal", and apply "rior" to war.

Nations are not people. Jews are people who follow Judaism. There is extensive and legitimate dissent from support of Israel in the countries you name. There is no noticeable dissent among Jews reqarding Israel. Nor is there noticeable dissent among the pretend Jews who support Israel. As you apparently refuse to notice, when dissent is so minor as to be known only to a few, it is legitimate in English to refer to the majority.

As you also appear to have failed to notice, only individuals not nations are considered to have criminal status under the relevant treaties so mentioning nations can at most be considered a rather silly attempt to divert the discussion from individuals to nations where the concept does not apply.

Well for one thing, I rarely talk about them. Why? Because I live in Texas and what is happening on the other side of the planet is not a priority for my thoughts. Unlike you who talks about it CONSTANTLY.

Living on the other side of the planet and still defending murderers and thieves running a ruthless dictatorship. Why?

As for constantly, this subject was ll over the evening news on four networks on 19 and 20 Sept and I presume the coverage will continue as it is about the only item of news of interest from the UN these days. Why not be thankful for the heads up and background you have over people who have only the TV news?

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You're obsessed. Did they kill your family and rape you on top of their dead bodies?

Because that's how you act.

For evil to triumph it is only necessary that good men remain silent. Evil has triumphed in the middle east for too long. All other dictatorships are crumbling. There is no reason the ruthless jewish dictatorship should not crumble also.

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I don't like Muslims. Fuck them.

From a redneck state that cheers the execution of coloreds your attitude is hardly surprising.

But that is hardly atheist of you. Do you have a hierarchy of religonists you hate or do you just single out Muslims who never harmed you personally? If you expand that beyond personal harm you can only invoke a plethora of logical fallacies and non-sequeturs but don't let me stop you.

It is odd to find a person admitting their sole reason for objecting to exposing jewish war crimes is that you are motivated by hate. That is not a pretty admission. Nor does it make sense that you could have developed such an emotion without suffering personal injury.

Want to talk about it?

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I don't like their religion. I don't like how they treat their women like property. I don't like how some fucking muslim will give his ten year old daughter to a 60 year old man so he can fuck her.

Those are the same customs followed by real Jews, those called Orthodox, the majority of the Jews in the world. How does this add up to harm to you? People cannot have their own customs and live their own lives the way they want? The way CHRISTIANS in the West did for most of their history?

I assume your emotions are based upon ignorance. Ignorance is the most common source of irrational hatred.

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I've been in muslim countries. Several of them. And they disgust me.

Stop visiting.

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I've also been in Israel, and they are a fantastic people.

Even when they (jewish men) beat (jewish) women for refusing to ride in the back of the bus? When they stone women for praying in public? For not wearing a wig and flesh colored stockings under normal stockings? For refusing to properly educate their children?

They are fantastic people for enslaving millions of people?

But let me guess, Birthright Tour. Correct? Do you really think they showed you the reality?

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Shut the fuck up about it already you stinking Muzzie. Your non-stop one topic mind is annoying.

Now you are talking like Likud or worse -- yes, there is worse.

That I post the truth contrary to your birthright tour and it bothers you is a good thing. It might get you to your irrational hatred of real semitic people.

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Talk about the fucking weather or something. Talk about anything for once other than how much you hate jews.

If you had been to Germany and Russia in th '30s I would expect glowing reports of those glorious social experiments. In fact if you had been in both countries in 1940 you would certainly have praised the dictatorships they each established in Poland. After all, they were dictators. They were your kind of people, ruthless dictators, tyrants.

But of course if you can characterize ALL of the people you hate by a few of the most backward your hatred is vindicated -- not that you really give a damn but it makes narrow-minded bigots feel better. Ten years ago most of the components in PCs were made in a Muslim country, Indonesia. May still be. I haven't done an inventory lately. The majority of Muslims do not live in the middle east. None in the middle east marry off 10 year olds.

It is the kind of knowledge I expect to be missing in those motivated by hatred.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

You know that according to their religion they're instructed to kill YOU. You know this don't you?

I have a copy of the Koran. Please quote in context AND give the reference to that instruction or admit you made it up. Your hatred warps your mind.

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You've rejected the idea of god. They would fucking kill you and go home with a big fuzzy feeling in their heart.

I lived under the credible threat of that from Russia most of my life. I have nothing against Russians.

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Moreso they'd tape you sitting in their midst while the dumb shits stand around you pointing AKs at your fucking head. Then they'd take a rusty knife and saw your head off, taping the entire thing.

And they're fucking proud of this shit. They'll record it and air it all over the internet.

One more infidel dead. Next.

On fucking 9/11 the dumb fucks were cheering their asses off as the towers collapsed. Innocent people just sitting at their desk to provide an income for their families died in droves because of these sick fucks.

And even here in America, where the attacks happened, they were dancing around their quicky marts chanting how great god was.

Muslim gangs all over the planet were crawling over each other to claim responsibility for the deaths of thousands of innocent people that were killed for just going to work.

Israel has made Palestine that way. Now they face the music. When some bunch of fucks drop a bomb on your house killing your family and the guy the fucks wanted to kill wasn't even nearby and you never even get an apology you can slam the victims. Until then I fully support the nuking of Israel and their twisted and cruel tactics that force people to do drastic and irrational things just to defend themselves.

Jews did not like "blame the victim" -- only when it applies to them.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

don't even get me started. We invaded this land and wiped out the Native Americans. We herded them onto the crappiest pieces of land we could find, preventing them from hunting and providing for themselves. Then fed them rotting meat and when they snuck off the reservation to find something for their families to eat we'd call it an uprising and kill them and their families.

I am firmly of the opinion that it is acceptable for Americans to condemn slavery even though the US once had slavery. Similarly I consider it reasonable to condemn what JEWS are doing to Palestinians even though the US may have at one time done something similar in the Hollywood sense.

It is very easy to get a Jew to agree the Indians should have united and wiped out the Europeans as fast as they arrived. It is difficult to find one who agrees the Palestinians should have done the same thing for the same reason.

Irrelevant and wrong at the same time.
Not by any strech do all jews support the actions of Israel.
All the countries I name have partaken in EXACTLY the same shit Israel does, just not necessarily as often.
So shut your fool mouth and start gaining some perspective. If all of Israel can be condemned, then so can everyone in every democratic society.
Talk to me about logic when you learn the basics.

Most natives who died during colonisation died from plagues and social issues that people were oblivious to. Israel is anything BUT oblivious as to their constant hammering of Palestinian civilians with tanks, bombs, planes, and a fucking army.

There are problems with almost any kind of parallel except the Hollywood version. Cortez came to rule the Aztecs in accordance with Aztec law, he married Moctezuma's widow. And the killing off was within Aztec custom.

The north American conflict is the one Hollywood loves. Fact is the natives enthusiastically took sides in the original French and English conflicts. The Iroquois negotiated peace and are doing quite well today.

Many of the other tribes had a custom of raiding each other, ancient hatreds like Europe at the time. When Europeans were a target they handled it in European fashion not in coup counting. They took after the attacking tribe with the help of other Indian tribes.

That pattern repeated in every Indian war. The army always had Indians helping them in their wars.

And as for taking sides the name escapes me at the moment but one of them officially sided with the South against the North in the Civil War. The North treated them accordingly.

Like it or not the conflict was between a civilization and a hunter/gatherer society save for the Iroquuois who made out well. Even without the conflict the hunter/gatherers would have collapsed. The same thing happened in the Old World although most of the clear examples are pre-history.

And of course diseases did take most of them, around 70-90% per generation while Europeans were losing only 30-40% per generation from the same diseases. Even without resupply of bodies from Europe the outcome was inevitable. And the much vaunted lack of immunity was not a one way street, they merely had less immunity than the Europeans. It was not all v none as the usual presentation has it.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

Irrelevant and wrong at the same time. Not by any strech do all jews support the actions of Israel. All the countries I name have partaken in EXACTLY the same shit Israel does, just not necessarily as often. So shut your fool mouth and start gaining some perspective. If all of Israel can be condemned, then so can everyone in every democratic society. Talk to me about logic when you learn the basics.

There is an old Yiddish joke, meaning they told it about themselves, two Jews three opinions. One can modernize that as two Jews three organizations. So I invite you to list the Jews and/or the organizations which do not support Israel. I have already identified Naturei Karta and "Not in our Name." Please name the rest. If you know for a fact that there is meaningful opposition please post it.

Note here I do not mean disagreement with particular policies of Israel. I do not mean praising with faint damns. I mean condemnation up front and central without qualifications or watering it down.

Please feel free to post all that you know. I hope you know enough so that your "not all" is more than a self-hating handful.

I keep being told to "shut up" but only after I have addressed all the objections and those objecting have run out of factual material and rational responses as it it appears you have.

Again the issue is the Jewish tyranny over millions of people. Cite the condemnation of the tyranny. I can find all the "settlements are not good for Israel" positions I want. They are how I determined the far left of the political spectrum in Israel would be to the right of center in the US. So please do not try to pass off such positions as condemnation of jewish tyranny. "We can't tear innocent jewish children from their homes so we must maintain the tyranny" nauseates me. Yet it is a common defense of the dictatorship.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

Pfft. Wikipedia was unreliable.... 10 years ago. Get with the times man. You can look at edit histories and sourcesto make sure the information is accurate. And it rarely isn't accurate these days. Wikipedia can no longer be easily and significantly vandalised for a significant amount of time. There are more people keeping it viable then there are vandals.

Grow up. Not even high school students are permitted to use a reference like that. You have to go to the references to find what is required to show their political leaders have said the same braindead religious things as Netanyahu.

Excuse me. I do not care where you go to find it. But you have to post the quotes not a claim that the quotes exist.

If you do not have the evidence stop trying to substitute material that would be rejected in a high school paper as a response. I assume you completed high and know this. Am I in error?

Or was it a Texas high school?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

Your attitude in your signature is just as stupid as the religious "sins of the father". I today am not responsible for slavery nor was I responsable for the wrongful land grab European Christians did in killing off Native Americans. But you have to be out of your mind to think I should give a damned thing to blacks or Native Americans, other than "Humans shouldn't do that in the future".

NOW what you should do, instead of dwelling on the past over things that will never be resolved through violence, is to deal with the here and now.

BOTH sides need to stop pointing fingers and stop this stupid fight over FUCKING DESERT!

The current land grab DID start after WW2 wrongfully by Jews after the world had RIGHTFUL sympathy of 6 million being slaughtered.

But what is done is done and you are NOT going to get Jews to go anywhere. And Jews are not going to get Muslims to go anywhere. So rather than get into violent pissing contests BOTH sides need to clean their own houses. NEITHER side is doing that.

Your finger pointing is a childish and deadly as Israel's childish and deadly playground mentality. And I am sick of both sides.

Again, the only way I will support Palestine collectively is if it becomes secular and embraces pluralism, which I have not seen a damned lick of hit of, other than SOME and far too few in Palestine. Start working on that first then you will get my sympathy.

As I am certain you remember but would like to forget I have already addressed this subject. The standard of justice and property restoration for Palestinians is exactly the same as Jews demand for themselves as a consequence of WWII. I did not invent this standard of justice. Jews did. I do not see Jews saying today's Germans and Poles and Hungarians and Romanians and Swiss are not responsible for the sins of their fathers. I see exactly the opposite.

I have said before and to refresh your memory, like it or not, the standard of justice for Palestinians is the same as Jews demand for themselves.

Lets not dwell on the past. Lets take it from right now as though there were no past. END THE DICTATORSHIP NOW! Send the foreigners back to Israel where they came from. No past? You got it.

I find it incomprensible that otherwise rational people will go through so many rationalizations while hoping no on notices the conclusion is always "Jews can continue their tyranny over millions of Palestinians." All the arguments have that as a conclusion. Even the fake arguments that lead to, "We must end our kind, genorous, benevolent rule of the primitives real soon" are transparent as the "real soon" is always in the geological sense.

You defenders of tyranny are always trying to get the discussion away from the tyranny and onto wiping Israel off the map as Jews wiped Palestine off the map.

The oldest of these three threads "Palestine under Jewish Tyranny" has been going on for two weeks. It has 78 replies. The only posts which continue to address the tyranny are mine. ALL the rest want to talk about something else -- anything but the dictatorship.

The reason it is not addressed is that it is indefensible. I cannot find anything but a religious reason for refusing the defend the tryanny but attacking my posts against the tyranny. You folks try to get attention away from the tyranny onto unrelated issues.

Why not break the mold and condemn the tyranny without justifying it? Israel has said it squattertowns are bound by Geneva IV so why do you not agree they are war crimes?

Or if you think you can justify the squattertowns as a military necessity please do so. I am interested in seeing someone give it a go.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

I've had dozens of friends who identified themselves as jewish, and none of them advocated for Israel. I've been in contact with thousands of jews, and only 3 or 4 of them advocated for Israel. The only times I see groups of jews supporting Israel is when they are Israeli (negating the distinction as irrelevant), or lobbyists.
I'm not going to name any of the jews I've known who don't support Israel because they are not public figures. Most jews aren't. Most PEOPLE aren't. But you skim a few headlines and assume there's a jew factory that spits out an army of identical tyrants. It's ridiculous.
I told you to shut up because because you're being stupid and bigoted, and you aren't doing Palestine or its people any favours by misrepresenting Israel, a country which is condemnable enough on its own to not need such misrepresentation. And because you had the nerve to question my logic when you have absolutely none.

Grow a brain. High school students ARE allowed to use wikipedia. When I was first in HS it didn't exist. But when I went back to finish it did exist and was an acceptable reference. But feel free to keep talking out your ass, making a complete fool of yourself as always. I bet you're in Kansas. Only a very few places can produce someone as stupid as yourself, and Kansas tops the list.

The usual suspects are in an uproar over Palestine going to the UN this month for recognition as a sovereign state.

The currently popular whine is that it will not result in peace. But no one said that was the objective. The purpose is for the world to recognize the Palestinians live under the jewish (and democratic) tyranny of a military dictatorship. With recognition of this tyranny the world will have to agree the jewish (and democratic) dictatorship has to end so that peace will become possible.

Peace is always a Palestinian option as international law, particularly the 4th Geneva convention, approves indiscriminate violence against the occupying country as was the norm during WWII. Peace comes only when Palestinians decline to excercise their legal right to attack the occupying country.

The military governor of the West Bank is not materially different from General Heydrich and his lawful assassination for the same reason as Heydrich would be cheered by most of the world. Similarly "Lets kill Hitler" and "Lets kill Netanyahu" have the same legitimacy for the same reasons.

But lets be practical here as occupied Palestine will keep the peace as it is more profitable. Simply it will pass laws taxing all Israeli assets and all the Israelis in the occupied territories. It will also charge for the stolen water and tax profits from it. Israel will refuse to pay. Israel can only object to the taxes in the courts of Palestine as is customary in all countries. Israel will refuse to do that.

Then Palestine will file suit in the courts of the countries which have recognized it to sieze Israeli assets on those countries. As is the custom, as Israel did not challenge the taxes in the courts of Palestine, the courts of the other countries accept the debt and deal only with property siezures.

But wait, there is more. The laws of Palestine regarding theft and murder apply to all the IDF and the squatters. As the occupation is illegal Palestinian criminal laws apply. Palestine issues internation arrest warrants for them. They are arrested when they leave Israel. Of course Israel will not permit them to be transported into Palestine for trial so they languish in foreign jails until hell freezes over.

Similarly the leaders of organized criminal activity are liable for the crimes of their surbordinates. The entire chain of command up from one accused murderer to the Prime Minister are also subject to international arrest warrants with the same "rot in jail" consequences.

And of course the greatest war crime of them all, the criminal occupation, goes to the world court.

Stay tuned. It is going to be fun.

Myself I would like to see it adjudicated as to the responsibility of the voters in a democracy for the actions of their government. Seems to me they are absolutely responible for the government. It is difficult to conceive no one being responsible for the government of a country.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.