I wouldn't say women like jerks, or that nice guys finish last, necessarily (though a nice guy would let the lady finish first )
The attraction is a man who challenges them, not an asshole who treats them badly.

I would also wonder about this whole "women only like men who are jerks to them" and "nice guys finish last" thing. I find that hard to believe, but then I also find it hard to believe that the two groups are so diametrically opposed. The world isn't populated by two segregated groups of men - jerks to the right, nice guys to the left. Those on the right always win with women, those on the left always lose.

Is isn't like that.

Some men can act like jerks some of the time. Even nice guys. Because people aren't cut outs. They have personalities, and moods, just like everyone else. Maybe some of these guys who you see as being jerks are only getting the girl because they are the ones actually out there, talking to women? And the thing about talking to someone is that you get to know them. And sure, maybe some people are jerks straight the way through the middle, but not everyone is. I would imagine that a lot of women talk to a man who acted like a jerk on a couple of occasions, and then at some point discovered that he's actually, SHOCK, a normal person.

I think your issue is not "nice guys finish last" it's simply that people that never, ever, talk to women, ever...well, they aren't finishing at all. At least, not with another person.

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I would also wonder about this whole "women only like men who are jerks to them" and "nice guys finish last" thing. I find that hard to believe, but then I also find it hard to believe that the two groups are so diametrically opposed. The world isn't populated by two segregated groups of men - jerks to the right, nice guys to the left. Those on the right always win with women, those on the left always lose.

Is isn't like that.

Some men can act like jerks some of the time. Even nice guys. Because people aren't cut outs. They have personalities, and moods, just like everyone else. Maybe some of these guys who you see as being jerks are only getting the girl because they are the ones actually out there, talking to women? And the thing about talking to someone is that you get to know them. And sure, maybe some people are jerks straight the way through the middle, but not everyone is. I would imagine that a lot of women talk to a man who acted like a jerk on a couple of occasions, and then at some point discovered that he's actually, SHOCK, a normal person.

I think your issue is not "nice guys finish last" it's simply that people that never, ever, talk to women, ever...well, they aren't finishing at all. At least, not with another person.

It might be that sometimes men often don't have the confidence to even try properly with women who intimidate them in some way, with their attractiveness, intelligence, sexuality or some other appealing quality. Then it's only the ones with too much confidence that do anything interesting around them, who challenge them in any way. So these women end up with egotistical jerks.

Clearly not by any means a universal pattern, but one that nonetheless, exists. And since these are the women who are focussed on, the absurd idea emerges that all women want guys who are jerks.

As the debate about good guys vs jerks rumbles on I think it's worth thinking about whether people can validly say what they look for in a partner. I'm not sure whether people are self aware enough to be able to do that.

Consider facial symmetry. It's fairly well shown that people find symmetry attractive. So someone may find a person attractive but not realise the role of facial symmetry in this. They may then explain their attraction in other terms. So the more valid statements are about what we see rather than how people feel. Therefore, although I feel uncomfortable with the notion of 'women love a bastard', my experience does seem to suggest that guys that act like arseholes find it easier to attract women.

I think it's worth thinking about whether people can validly say what they look for in a partner. I'm not sure whether people are self aware enough to be able to do that.

Something I've always thought! To fully understand how you respond to other people, you must first understand and explore yourself as much as possible, since our perception of others will invariably be filtered through our minds. Our minds which are unique and individual to our environment, mood, upbringing, personality and past experiences.

People usually want and/or need different things in an ideal partner to what they're instinctively attracted to. That's even if they know what they want, and not just what subconsciously attracts them or what they think they want. Our thought processes are always more complex than we realize - as so much more happens in our brains than we're aware of.

Although I feel uncomfortable with the notion of 'women love a bastard', my experience does seem to suggest that guys that act like arseholes find it easier to attract women.

At the most simplistic level, you want something of value. If the person who is meant to know best - the actual guy himself - isn't confident enough to give the impression of valuing himself enough, then he doesn't seem valuable. Women enjoy the confidence of men, how much of that will differ between each woman. Unfortunately, the confidence that attracts some women initially can turn out to be in excess. Thus, women with assholes.

Sometimes in life, many times for some of us, there comes a time when one has to say fuck it. Don't let fear keep you from getting to know people and putting yourself out there to flirt a little or just to get know someone. Because as much as we don't want to think about it, you never know if this is your last day. So, if there is someone you really would like to get to know better and fear is holding you back, let go of it. You never know what can happen, and rejection happens to everyone, although it may not seem like it. Sometimes the fun is in doing, not in the end results.

Sometimes in life, many times for some of us, there comes a time when one has to say fuck it. Don't let fear keep you from getting to know people and putting yourself out there to flirt a little or just to get know someone. Because as much as we don't want to think about it, you never know if this is your last day. So, if there is someone you really would like to get to know better and fear is holding you back, let go of it. You never know what can happen, and rejection happens to everyone, although it may not seem like it. Sometimes the fun is in doing, not in the end results.

Peace and love,
Minnie aka LadyVery

I agree completely and have given this advice to my friends many a time. But do I ever take my own advice? Of course not.

It is much easier to tell someone else to "suck it up". So guilty of this myself. Now if only I could MAKE myself listen to my own advice.

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I'll try to summarise the points which stood out for me. Essentially guys are in this contradictory situation where they are pressured to initiate to contact with women. Perceived sexual accomplishment is a large factor to the esteem in which we hold a man. However, expressed male sexuality is frequently seen as creepy, threatening, predatory, or dangerous. So to bring it back to this thread, when a guy tries to flirt he is risking a double hit to his esteem (eg being seen as a failure and a creep) as well as the negative feelings that from realising he may have inadvertently 'harassed'someone.

There's a second telling point from the article in the comments section:

And given most people are average, because that's what average is, we have a rather unpleasant t state of affairs. Or rather, an unpleasant state of affairs we're meant to walk into and make charming and attractive small talk.

Overall, as far as LadyVer's flirting tip goes I think we can say 2 things. Firstly, giving advice to guys along thę lines of 'man up and just do it' doesn't address the multidimensional bind that guys find themselves in. Secondly, there may be much to be said for women assuming the initiator role in flirting for while they too have risks associated with rebuffal (eg being labelled a slut) these are not as bad as being given the proto-sex-offender label of 'creep'.

Finally, ladyver, I don't want to seem hostile to your thread and suggestions. I think it's great that people are prepared to give advice - heaven knows I need it! Please keep the tips coming!

I'll try to summarise the points which stood out for me. Essentially guys are in this contradictory situation where they are pressured to initiate to contact with women. Perceived sexual accomplishment is a large factor to the esteem in which we hold a man. However, expressed male sexuality is frequently seen as creepy, threatening, predatory, or dangerous. So to bring it back to this thread, when a guy tries to flirt he is risking a double hit to his esteem (eg being seen as a failure and a creep) as well as the negative feelings that from realising he may have inadvertently 'harassed'someone.

There's a second telling point from the article in the comments section:

And given most people are average, because that's what average is, we have a rather unpleasant t state of affairs. Or rather, an unpleasant state of affairs we're meant to walk into and make charming and attractive small talk.

Overall, as far as LadyVer's flirting tip goes I think we can say 2 things. Firstly, giving advice to guys along thę lines of 'man up and just do it' doesn't address the multidimensional bind that guys find themselves in. Secondly, there may be much to be said for women assuming the initiator role in flirting for while they too have risks associated with rebuffal (eg being labelled a slut) these are not as bad as being given the proto-sex-offender label of 'creep'.

Finally, ladyver, I don't want to seem hostile to your thread and suggestions. I think it's great that people are prepared to give advice - heaven knows I need it! Please keep the tips coming!

Thanks for your comment. The good men project has some great articles. There's a recent article there about male virginity that's worth reading, especially for virgins. What I'm trying to say about flirting in general is that sometimes we just take things too seriously. Flirting can be seen as an all or nothing, win with no option to fail. And then when failure comes, I'm a loser is our response.. Anyway, as I've said I'm no expert, but I do know what it's like to flirt and get different responses.