I would suspect that Aaron is referring to SP members like me for starters.

I find it a bit ironic that the most prolific and maybe the most accomplished climber on SP is the one that started the thread that is in question. It was an interesting thread but really not meant for the front page. But since I've been here, a mere 2 years, it seems like there have been very, very few threads that were on the front page that didn't belong. And when they were hijacked the elves were always pretty quick to bump it to OR.

This thread has the eerie aura of the Chief days are gone thread. (Chief, glad you stayed!!)

Thanks for digging up the stats on SP set forth in the separate thread referencing SP's 11th anniversary. Good to see some objective data in the midst of this emotionally-charged episode in SP's life. Glad to see that visitation is not down. It appears that rumors of SP's demise are premature.

I gather that one of the recurring themes brought up by veteran users is not how much content there is but what content there is and whether the current purpose and direction of the site is, and should be in keeping with its original concept if you like. Particularly with Aaron's History of SP articles no longer available it's difficult for most people to gauge those principles, who brought around what and even who was and currently is setting the course of the SP ship. Is it the site owners, the Elves, the forum moderators, heavy forum users, heavy page makers, people that are great climbers and dip in and out between trips, the people most likely to click adverts, or all of the above? There are indeed a lot of official requests for input from users but official briefings on current states of affairs are few and far between.

All of us who live long enough eventually have the experience Aaron is having now. We leave an organization, it marches on with new participants, and when we revisit it later we decide it's gone to hell in a handbasket.

It is a sad day indeed to see you go, I have very much enjoyed your pages over the years, but more so have enjoyed your company on the various SP gathering hikes and celebration dinners. Hopefully we will be hiking together again soon!

I know my contributions have been a little behind. I guess between work and time spent climbing, I haven't had as much time to share my climbs with everyone else. Of course it didn't help that I did not used to have internet access at my house... The pages you transferred to me will be well taken care of, and I will start working on them as soon as I can (going away this weekend, so it may take a few days). It will be a good kick in the pants for me to get back to my contributions!

As Scott said, many formerly active members have either gone or scaled back, at least in terms of Colorado. The Colorado board is definitely slow, but that may be mostly due to a more Colorado dedicated site that has a much more active forum. I know I post more actively on those forums myself.

As to the vitriol threads, I largely ignore them, most of the times I don't even click on them, there just isn't enough time for that sort of nonsense. I like the sports threads though! I may post here and there on the more political threads, but I think I have been fair and respectful of others (I hope so anyway!). As a non-theist I even get perturbed at the behavior of other non-theists and their attitudes towards those of faith from time to time. I am a very "visual" and "physical" type of person, if I can see it and touch it, then it exists, if not, then it doesn't. However, to me the lack of a physical God does not negate the very real God that people of faith feel inside of them, and I have always respected that aspect of their lives.

I agree that Aaron's comments are well and truly worthy of consideration even though, as a moderator myself, it obviously is uncomfortable reading.

I will admit that my finger hovered over the nuke button in respect of that treatment of animals thread, but in my lame defence, may I say that the elves are still dealing with the aftermath of another nasty disagreement over whether a thread should or shouldn't be moved/deleted and which, among other things has caused another valuable member with good climbing credentials to want to pull the plug even though every effort was made by staff to diffuse the situation and get the thread back on track for the sake of those who wanted to continue a civilised discussion on the topic. That made me reluctant (cowardice??) to nuke/move a thread started by another valuable member with a lot of climbing cred.

I don't think it belonged in General and, reading Aaron's remarks, I now wish I'd taken action, but having said that, I know damned well that it would most likely have opened another can of worms.

Sorry to see you leave Aaron. Your contributions and advice were much appreciated even if it doesn't feel that way to you at the moment..

You know I hold you and Ellen (and your lovely daughter!) in deep affection. It goes without saying for some of us, but I'll voice it here on this forum.

I miss interacting with you on this site, and certainly it's been too long since I've hoisted a beer and onion rings in your honor after a long walk along a ridge in the San Juans against the blue (...turning to black...with thunder rumbling in the distance...) Colorado sky.

Life isn't static. Life is dynamic and always changing. It would be great it you never got around to the point where you left SP. But you have. And what's done is done - water under the bridge.

It's true: The only constant is change. And as much as it makes us sad to see old faces go, to every thing there is a season. Nothing good lasts forever. New replaces old, and the wheels keep turning. SP keeps morphing, fresh contributors dominate, old voices turn to whispers, yesterday's power-contributors walk away. So it goes. The world keeps turning.

Enjoy the next chapter.

Godspeed.

Via con dios, amigo!

(But I still hope to see you in the hills soon! I like the "real" Ellen & Aaron better than the online versions, anyhow.)

Baarb wrote:Is it the site owners, the Elves, the forum moderators, heavy forum users, heavy page makers, people that are great climbers and dip in and out between trips, the people most likely to click adverts, or all of the above...?

You forgot HIKERS ... why do hikers always get a Bum Rap on SP ???

I'm not sure how anybody could take me seriously on Cyberspace Threads, and most certainly apologize if that was the case. Time marches on ...

"Phobos and Deimos went to Mars, and that's the last time I saw those two dudes."

For new SP members or those doubtful that SP is taking a direction they are aligned with, I have these thoughts.

SP is what you make of it.

*Not enough high altitude trip reporting? When you return from the Himalayas, why not share a well-written trip report?*Too few die-hard alpine climbing routes? I can't wait to see your next grade VI route posted.*Not enough technical rock climbing? How about contributing info on your favorite climbing area. Too many YDS 5.4s? Great, post a detailed 5.11 route.*Tired of seeing treed hills added to SP? Tell us more about the rugged, high-elevation monsters in your back yard!*Too much crap in the forums? Work to outweigh it with quality content contributions and/or solid forums beta insights and pertinent forums knowledge-share.

Still feel out of alignment with the community? Maybe SP isn't the place for you, after all, and that's ok, too (as Aaron has illustrated).

SP is a wonderful place to celebrate a shared love of the mountains, a resourceful website and an *interesting* community. How you experience it is up to you.Find the serenity to accept the things you cannot change, the courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

dadndave wrote:I will admit that my finger hovered over the nuke button in respect of that treatment of animals thread, but in my lame defence, may I say that the elves are still dealing with the aftermath of another nasty disagreement over whether a thread should or shouldn't be moved/deleted and which, among other things has caused another valuable member with good climbing credentials to want to pull the plug even though every effort was made by staff to diffuse the situation and get the thread back on track for the sake of those who wanted to continue a civilised discussion on the topic. That made me reluctant (cowardice??) to nuke/move a thread started by another valuable member with a lot of climbing cred. I don't think it belonged in General and, reading Aaron's remarks, I now wish I'd taken action, but having said that, I know damned well that it would most likely have opened another can of worms.

IIRC, each of the threads mentioned began with posts that included stereotyping, name calling, and/or ad hominem. The opening posts could have been written more sensitively, from a different approach, or without those elements. Once a thread begins that way, a variety of reactions are likely to ensue with some of the reactions only making the thread as a whole more likely to offend. Often those being most insensitive continued with some of the same word choice after others called them on it, tried to change the tone of the discussion, or tried to inject humor to lighten the mood. The level of contribution/potential level of contribution of the author really shouldn't matter when making a decision about moving the thread to off-route/deleting the thread.

Having said that, I do appreciate the moderators and have always understood when I've noticed a thread get moved or deleted. I'll add that I have seen them handle several recent situations skillfully. I agree that some leftover aftermath from previous drama made handling the latest questionable threads more challenging. If a user keeps getting into problems in the forums, I would hope concern on the part of the moderators about that user's complaints regarding ensuing drama, and action by moderators, would be minimal.

I certainly understand why this thread came up and think some will learn from it, but I also hope nobody is losing sleep over any of it.

I was probably the first elf to see that thread since it was minutes old and had no responses yet when I did. And when I saw it, I knew right away it belonged in Off-Route not because of the subject itself (treatment of animals, which I do find tangentially related to an outdoors-oriented site) but because of the religious angle. Nevertheless, as dadndave expressed, my thinking, due to a fiasco last week concerning the moving of a different thread (which, as Sean Reedy correctly notes, was in my view a suitable topic but written in a way intended to provoke), was "Let's see where this goes."

So go ahead and blame me for not nipping it in the bud if you want to. Once a thread gets some steam, it can get harder to make the call on moving/splitting/editing it.

I'll also admit to this: people comment about the forums getting less traffic, but it seems that the controversial threads get more hits and more responses. So a part of me was glad to see lively participation in both threads by people who don't know about or don't want to participate in Off-Route. I'll admit that might have clouded my judgment.

Agree or disagree with the decision to keep it in General, don't think the thread was ignored by staff. Some readers are probably aware that one member who was being particularly vicious toward another and acting like a complete troll was deleted while that thread was still active.

Cheers!

"Alcohol is like love. The first kiss is magic, the second is intimate, the third is routine. After that you take the girl's clothes off."