Would you like to tackle every one of those in context? Or do you just want to hold to your error?

Matthew 28: [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Would you like to tackle every one of those in context? Or do you just want to hold to your error?

Matthew 28: [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Go for it.

Matthew 28. I fully affirm the baptism of all new believers. It's what Christ commanded. What is the problem? Are you suggesting we not baptize people? This passage does not in any way state that it is required for salvation.

Would you like to tackle every one of those in context? Or do you just want to hold to your error?

Matthew 28: [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Go for it.

Matthew 28. I fully affirm the baptism of all new believers. It's what Christ commanded. What is the problem? Are you suggesting we not baptize people?

Would you like to tackle every one of those in context? Or do you just want to hold to your error?

Matthew 28: [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Go for it.

Matthew 28. I fully affirm the baptism of all new believers. It's what Christ commanded. What is the problem? Are you suggesting we not baptize people?

But why does Christ want all believers to be baptized?

It's a visible reminder that we die to sin and are raised up as slaves of Christ.

so are you a Christian prior to baptism? Or does baptism make you a Christian?

A person could be a Christian prior to Baptism, but being a Christian dead in sin is of no advantage.

According to Scripture (Romans 6) Baptism brings about an ontological change in the baptizmad.

[3] Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. [7] For he that is dead is justified from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ: [9] Knowing that Christ rising again from the dead, dieth now no more, death shall no more have dominion over him. [10] For in that he died to sin, he died once; but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God:

Can you show me a Scripture which says that just putting your trust in Christ also brings about an ontological change in your being?

A person could be a Christian prior to Baptism, but being a Christian dead in sin is of no advantage.

So a person can be a Christian and not baptized. Is such a person saved?

Quote:

According to Scripture (Romans 6) Baptism brings about an ontological change in the baptizmad.

[3] Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. [7] For he that is dead is justified from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ: [9] Knowing that Christ rising again from the dead, dieth now no more, death shall no more have dominion over him. [10] For in that he died to sin, he died once; but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God:

Can you show me a Scripture which says that just putting your trust in Christ also brings about an ontological change in your being?

Notice that Romans does not specifically state that baptism actually saves. On the contrary, the previous few chapters state that Abraham was justified by faith--and so are we. Abraham then received circumcision as a sign. As a result, we now enter into Christ, by faith--expressed in baptism. We are justified by faith--prior to baptism.

A person could be a Christian prior to Baptism, but being a Christian dead in sin is of no advantage.

So a person can be a Christian and not baptized. Is such a person saved?

Quote:

According to Scripture (Romans 6) Baptism brings about an ontological change in the baptizmad.

[3] Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. [7] For he that is dead is justified from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ: [9] Knowing that Christ rising again from the dead, dieth now no more, death shall no more have dominion over him. [10] For in that he died to sin, he died once; but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God:

Can you show me a Scripture which says that just putting your trust in Christ also brings about an ontological change in your being?

Notice that Romans does not specifically state that baptism actually saves. On the contrary, the previous few chapters state that Abraham was justified by faith--and so are we. Abraham then received circumcision as a sign. As a result, we now enter into Christ, by faith--expressed in baptism. We are justified by faith--prior to baptism.

Is Paul contradicting hmself? Abraham sealed his covenant with God through circumcision, but circumcision did not bring about an ontological change in Abraham. But in Baptism, the Apostle tells us, we cease to be the old man living in the kingdom of the devil, and we do indeed become the new man living in the kingdom of God. If, then, the comparison is between circumcision and Baptism, we see that Baptism does something that circumcision could not do, and this is fitting, as the New Covenant is superior to the Old Covenant.

so are you a Christian prior to baptism? Or does baptism make you a Christian?

A person could be a Christian prior to Baptism, but being a Christian dead in sin is of no advantage.

According to Scripture (Romans 6) Baptism brings about an ontological change in the baptizmad.

[3] Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. [7] For he that is dead is justified from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ: [9] Knowing that Christ rising again from the dead, dieth now no more, death shall no more have dominion over him. [10] For in that he died to sin, he died once; but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God:

Can you show me a Scripture which says that just putting your trust in Christ also brings about an ontological change in your being?

What caused Abraham to be considered righteous? Was it baptism, or circumcision....or faith?

pax wrote:

Is Paul contradicting hmself? Abraham sealed his covenant with God through circumcision, but circumcision did not bring about an ontological change in Abraham. But in Baptism, the Apostle tells us, we cease to be the old man living in the kingdom of the devil, and we do indeed become the new man living in the kingdom of God. If, then, the comparison is between circumcision and Baptism, we see that Baptism does something that circumcision could not do, and this is fitting, as the New Covenant is superior to the Old Covenant.

Baptism is not a magical ritual that causes change in us. Man does not have any special powers to dispense God's grace. You refer to Romans as saying that we die to him--but a chapter earlier Paul states we are justified by faith. It's not because we get sprinkled or dunked. We become a Christian, then get baptized as a confirmation of it. We are still saved regardless.

pax wrote:

Also, Baptism does not save apart from Christ. It was Christ who commanded us to be baptized that we may enter into His Covenant with mankind and be saved by Him.

We enter the covenant with God through faith. Abraham did it, and so do we. It's why Abraham was called the Father of the Faithful. If all it took was circumcision--or if circumcision was all that was needed, then Paul didn't need to write Romans.

so are you a Christian prior to baptism? Or does baptism make you a Christian?

A person could be a Christian prior to Baptism, but being a Christian dead in sin is of no advantage.

According to Scripture (Romans 6) Baptism brings about an ontological change in the baptizmad.

[3] Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. [7] For he that is dead is justified from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ: [9] Knowing that Christ rising again from the dead, dieth now no more, death shall no more have dominion over him. [10] For in that he died to sin, he died once; but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God:

Can you show me a Scripture which says that just putting your trust in Christ also brings about an ontological change in your being?

What caused Abraham to be considered righteous? Was it baptism, or circumcision....or faith?

This "show me a Scripture" thingy seems to be a very difficult request for you. I have to wonder if you are in fact arguing from Scripture, as you seem incapable of referencing any Scripture, but just consistently fall back to your default position, which is to just question what the Scripture is actually saying.

You refer to Romans as saying that we die to him--but a chapter earlier Paul states we are justified by faith. It's not because we get sprinkled or dunked. We become a Christian, then get baptized as a confirmation of it. We are still saved regardless.

[4] But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: [5] Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost;

[6] Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour: [7] That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting. [8] It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. [9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain. [10] A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:

[11] Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

I am not interested in your traditions of men. You must make your argument by citing Scripture.

so are you a Christian prior to baptism? Or does baptism make you a Christian?

A person could be a Christian prior to Baptism, but being a Christian dead in sin is of no advantage.

According to Scripture (Romans 6) Baptism brings about an ontological change in the baptizmad.

[3] Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. [7] For he that is dead is justified from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ: [9] Knowing that Christ rising again from the dead, dieth now no more, death shall no more have dominion over him. [10] For in that he died to sin, he died once; but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God:

Can you show me a Scripture which says that just putting your trust in Christ also brings about an ontological change in your being?

What caused Abraham to be considered righteous? Was it baptism, or circumcision....or faith?

This "show me a Scripture" thingy seems to be a very difficult request for you. I have to wonder if you are in fact arguing from Scripture, as you seem incapable of referencing any Scripture, but just consistently fall back to your default position, which is to just question what the Scripture is actually saying.

[1] Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Is Paul contradicting himself? You seem to be saying that this verse makes the other verses meaningless. Perhaps you could supply a meaning for those verses cited about Baptism which tie these two verses together? You see, I hold both to be true, and I see no contradiction between them. But you obviously do. The reason? You see salvation as an event, whereas I see salvation as a process.

[8] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

JUst finish the sentence!

[11] For the scripture saith: Whosoever believeth in him, shall not be confounded. [12] For there is no distinction of the Jew and the Greek: for the same is Lord over all, rich unto all that call upon him. [13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. [14] How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things!

[15] Unless they be sent: Here is an evident proof against all new teachers, who have all usurped to themselves the ministry without any lawful mission, derived by succession from the apostles, to whom Christ said, John 20. 21, As my Father hath sent me, I also send you.

[1] Now when these things were done, the word of the Lord came to Abram by a vision, saying: Fear not, Abram, I am thy protector, and thy reward exceeding great. [2] And Abram said: Lord God, what wilt thou give me? I shall go without children: and the son of the steward of my house is this Damascus Eliezer. [3] And Abram added: But to me thou hast not given seed: and lo my servant, born in my house, shall be my heir. [4] And immediately the word of the Lord came to him, saying: He shall not be thy heir: but he that shall come out of thy bowels, him shalt thou have for thy heir. [5] And he brought him forth abroad, and said to him: Look up to heaven and number the stars, if thou canst. And he said to him: So shall thy seed be.

[6] Abram believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. [7] And he said to him: I am the Lord who brought thee out from Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land, and that thou mightest possess it. [8] But he said: Lord God, whereby may I know that I shall possess it? [9] And the Lord answered, and said: Take me a cow of three years old, and a she goat of three years, and a ram of three years, a turtle also, and a pigeon. [10] And he took all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid the two pieces of each one against the other; but the birds he divided not.

[11] And the fowls came down upon the carcasses, and Abram drove them away. [12] And when the sun was setting, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a great and darksome horror seized upon him. [13] And it was said unto him: Know thou beforehand that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land not their own, and they shall bring them under bondage, and afflict them four hundred years. [14] But I will judge the nation which they shall serve, and after this they shall come out with great substance. [15] And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace, and be buried in a good old age.

[16] But in the fourth generation they shall return hither: for as yet the iniquities of the Amorrhites are not at the full until this present time. [17] And when the sun was set, there arose a dark mist, and there appeared a smoking furnace and a lamp of fire passing between those divisions. [18] That day God made a covenant with Abram,

[1] Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Is Paul contradicting himself? You seem to be saying that this verse makes the other verses meaningless. Perhaps you could supply a meaning for those verses cited about Baptism which tie these two verses together? You see, I hold both to be true, and I see no contradiction between them. But you obviously do. The reason? You see salvation as an event, whereas I see salvation as a process.

[8] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

JUst finish the sentence!

Don't put the cart before the horse.

Verse 10 does not invalidate the point that 8-9 state we're saved by grace through faith. I certainly don't disagree that we need to do good works to prove our salvation. But works don't save us. They are a result of our saving faith.

Quote:

[11] For the scripture saith: Whosoever believeth in him, shall not be confounded. [12] For there is no distinction of the Jew and the Greek: for the same is Lord over all, rich unto all that call upon him. [13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. [14] How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things!

[15] Unless they be sent: Here is an evident proof against all new teachers, who have all usurped to themselves the ministry without any lawful mission, derived by succession from the apostles, to whom Christ said, John 20. 21, As my Father hath sent me, I also send you.

[1] Now when these things were done, the word of the Lord came to Abram by a vision, saying: Fear not, Abram, I am thy protector, and thy reward exceeding great. [2] And Abram said: Lord God, what wilt thou give me? I shall go without children: and the son of the steward of my house is this Damascus Eliezer. [3] And Abram added: But to me thou hast not given seed: and lo my servant, born in my house, shall be my heir. [4] And immediately the word of the Lord came to him, saying: He shall not be thy heir: but he that shall come out of thy bowels, him shalt thou have for thy heir. [5] And he brought him forth abroad, and said to him: Look up to heaven and number the stars, if thou canst. And he said to him: So shall thy seed be.

[6] Abram believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. [7] And he said to him: I am the Lord who brought thee out from Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land, and that thou mightest possess it. [8] But he said: Lord God, whereby may I know that I shall possess it? [9] And the Lord answered, and said: Take me a cow of three years old, and a she goat of three years, and a ram of three years, a turtle also, and a pigeon. [10] And he took all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid the two pieces of each one against the other; but the birds he divided not.

[11] And the fowls came down upon the carcasses, and Abram drove them away. [12] And when the sun was setting, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a great and darksome horror seized upon him. [13] And it was said unto him: Know thou beforehand that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land not their own, and they shall bring them under bondage, and afflict them four hundred years. [14] But I will judge the nation which they shall serve, and after this they shall come out with great substance. [15] And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace, and be buried in a good old age.

[16] But in the fourth generation they shall return hither: for as yet the iniquities of the Amorrhites are not at the full until this present time. [17] And when the sun was set, there arose a dark mist, and there appeared a smoking furnace and a lamp of fire passing between those divisions. [18] That day God made a covenant with Abram,

See? A process. Not an event.

Again...the cart before the horse....

He was considered righteous...then the covenant came. Not the other way around.

[1] Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Is Paul contradicting himself? You seem to be saying that this verse makes the other verses meaningless. Perhaps you could supply a meaning for those verses cited about Baptism which tie these two verses together? You see, I hold both to be true, and I see no contradiction between them. But you obviously do. The reason? You see salvation as an event, whereas I see salvation as a process.

[8] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

JUst finish the sentence!

Don't put the cart before the horse.

Verse 10 does not invalidate the point that 8-9 state we're saved by grace through faith. I certainly don't disagree that we need to do good works to prove our salvation. But works don't save us. They are a result of our saving faith.

What is the source of those works? The same source as faith: grace. What does that mean: saved by grace through faith to walk in good works? I say it means that the source of our salvation is grace which imparts to us both faith and good works, so that one cannot be saved merely by having faith without good works -- exactly as the Apostle James says!

Quote:

[11] For the scripture saith: Whosoever believeth in him, shall not be confounded. [12] For there is no distinction of the Jew and the Greek: for the same is Lord over all, rich unto all that call upon him. [13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. [14] How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things!

[15] Unless they be sent: Here is an evident proof against all new teachers, who have all usurped to themselves the ministry without any lawful mission, derived by succession from the apostles, to whom Christ said, John 20. 21, As my Father hath sent me, I also send you.

What? No comment on this one?

Quote:

Quote:

[1] Now when these things were done, the word of the Lord came to Abram by a vision, saying: Fear not, Abram, I am thy protector, and thy reward exceeding great. [2] And Abram said: Lord God, what wilt thou give me? I shall go without children: and the son of the steward of my house is this Damascus Eliezer. [3] And Abram added: But to me thou hast not given seed: and lo my servant, born in my house, shall be my heir. [4] And immediately the word of the Lord came to him, saying: He shall not be thy heir: but he that shall come out of thy bowels, him shalt thou have for thy heir. [5] And he brought him forth abroad, and said to him: Look up to heaven and number the stars, if thou canst. And he said to him: So shall thy seed be.

[6] Abram believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. [7] And he said to him: I am the Lord who brought thee out from Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land, and that thou mightest possess it. [8] But he said: Lord God, whereby may I know that I shall possess it? [9] And the Lord answered, and said: Take me a cow of three years old, and a she goat of three years, and a ram of three years, a turtle also, and a pigeon. [10] And he took all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid the two pieces of each one against the other; but the birds he divided not.

[11] And the fowls came down upon the carcasses, and Abram drove them away. [12] And when the sun was setting, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a great and darksome horror seized upon him. [13] And it was said unto him: Know thou beforehand that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land not their own, and they shall bring them under bondage, and afflict them four hundred years. [14] But I will judge the nation which they shall serve, and after this they shall come out with great substance. [15] And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace, and be buried in a good old age.

[16] But in the fourth generation they shall return hither: for as yet the iniquities of the Amorrhites are not at the full until this present time. [17] And when the sun was set, there arose a dark mist, and there appeared a smoking furnace and a lamp of fire passing between those divisions. [18] That day God made a covenant with Abram,

See? A process. Not an event.

Again...the cart before the horse....

He was considered righteous...then the covenant came. Not the other way around.

No. God declared to Abraham that He was his protector and that his reward was exceeding great BEFORE Abraham made his act of faith. God had already decided what Abraham was going to do and then He supplied Abraham with the grace to do it.

What is the source of those works? The same source as faith: grace. What does that mean: saved by grace through faith to walk in good works? \

Bingo

Quote:

I say it means that the source of our salvation is grace which imparts to us both faith and good works, so that one cannot be saved merely by having faith without good works -- exactly as the Apostle James says!

You are wrong, and you're not reading James correctly. James clearly says that true faith is the kind that produces good works. Again...don't put the cart before the horse.

Quote:

[11] For the scripture saith: Whosoever believeth in him, shall not be confounded. [12] For there is no distinction of the Jew and the Greek: for the same is Lord over all, rich unto all that call upon him. [13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. [14] How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things!

[15] Unless they be sent: Here is an evident proof against all new teachers, who have all usurped to themselves the ministry without any lawful mission, derived by succession from the apostles, to whom Christ said, John 20. 21, As my Father hath sent me, I also send you.

What? No comment on this one?

I'm sorry..unintentional. All these quote blocks get confusing. Not sure what you're trying to say here. All who believe will be saved. Are you agreeing with me now?

Quote:

No. God declared to Abraham that He was his protector and that his reward was exceeding great BEFORE Abraham made his act of faith. God had already decided what Abraham was going to do and then He supplied Abraham with the grace to do it.

I'm sorry pax...I can lead you to the scripture but I can't make you see it. You're just reading stuff into it that isn't there. All I can suggest is that you read Romans 4-5 again. Paul lays it out and he references Abraham. He was clearly righteous before he did anything to please God. To suggest otherwise is eisegesis.