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Author
Topic: Worried (Read 8154 times)

I am worried because I was tested "slightly positive" for an ELISA today in China.

Here's my story, and want to get your guidance ...

- I am a male, In late Nov 2007 (~2 yr 5 months), I visited a hostess club in Hong Kong and a female sex worker performed oral sex on me while I worn a condom. I also fingered her and had some of her secretion on my finger. As far as I know, the condom did not break and there was no cuts on my finger

- This was a risky activity, and I regret it

- I returned to the US after the trip. - Then at ~2 week mark, I visited a major metro city's Department of Health and had an HIV test. Given that I was in the window period, they gave me a HIV NAAT and it was returned negative- At 1 month mark, I had a HIV-1 DNA PCR done, also returned negative- Month 2 (8 weeks), had Oraquick (with blood) and was negative- Month 3 (12 weeks), another Oraquick and negative

I then put it behind me ... but then I met my girlfriend. Since I was in a serious relationship, I wanted to be sure again.

- At 17 months, should be way pass my window period, I had my blood drawn for an ELISA and that also came back negative for HIV-1 and -2

- Since the sex worker incident in Nov 2007, I have not had sexual relationship with anyone. Even with my girlfriend, we only "fooled" around, sometime our genitals would touch and there's some partial penetration (sometimes with and without condom). My girlfriend is still a virgin ... though I know it is not a sure thing but it's unlikely she has HIV

I don't know why ... but when I just had my physical exam yesterday, I decided to add a ELISA test. I am working in China now, and at this nice clinic mostly for international people, had the ELISA test done

and it came back "partial positive"

How should I look at this? On one hand, it would seem that more than 5-6 tests confirmed that I am negative, even the NAAT and PCR at 2 weeks and 1 month. But the "partial positive" ELISA test result is really scaring me ... More importantly I worry that I might have transmitted HIV to my girlfriend ...

Please help ... I do very much appreciate your honest guidance. thank you

Take a breath, friend. You are worrying needlessly. As long as you did not have any possibly risky sexual experiences after the ones previously noted then your indeterminate result is nothing to worry about. Actually you never needed to test over those experiences in China.

The only confirmed risks for the sexual transmission of HIV are unprotected vaginal and anal intercourse. Giving or getting oral is NOT a risk nor is fingering.

So if you decide to re-test for your peace of mind I certainly expect you to test negative.

No ... I have not had any risky sexual encounters since Nov 2007. Been trying to be a good guy and enjoy the great company that my girlfriend brings. Just me and gf

I do wonder why i tested again yesterday in china. should have trusted the results and be good with it. But with no new exposure ... plenty of confirmatory negative test ... I still went. Think I have a problem ... I need to learn to accept the test result this time and move on with my life.

An inconclusive result, which is really what I think you received, happens for all sorts of reasons. I assume you're going to re-test and given what you have reported of your history I do expect you to test negative.

I am just thinking of the "incident" in Nov 2007, protected oral (received) and fingering, how risky was this exposure?

I am just torn about why there's even a slight positive when NAAT and PCR showed no trace of HIV dna materials? and my subsequent oraquick (2 month, 3 month) and ELISA at 17 month were all negative. With no other exposure (and 6+ test indicating negative), why would I turn positive?

I am getting a retest today - immunoflurence test, which is supposed to be similar to western blot, and they use it in HK. Wish me luck

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I am a bit worried/scared... and want to get your advice on my risk for hiv infection.

On Wed night, I am (male) went to a hostess club in China and took out a female professional sex worker. We did not have any intercourse, but I did put on a condom and had frottage with her. Mainly I rubbed my penis around her vagina and butt until i ejectulated. There was no penetration ... (sorry to be graphic here ... the ejectulation was on her butt cheek) and it was then that i realized the condom had slipped off.

I got really worried then. What was my chance of being infected with hiv? At some point my 'unprotected' penis might my come into direct contact with her vaginal fluid. or if her prior client had some semen on her butt and then I could have gotten it when my unprotected penis was touching her there. I don't know her status ... but she said that she had been at the club for a couple of years.

Adding to the worry is that the next day I started having sore throat and a slight fever. Could it be ARS? Does ARS start so early after a potential exposure activity?

I am very worried. I slipped ... and not sure what to do. Please help me understand what my risks were? and if I should seek help for ARS? It is now saturday morning here and I still have s sore throat. No more fever, no rash, just lot of worries.

You are worrying needlessly. Rubbing is not a risk for HIV. In fact the only confirmed risks sexually for the transmission of HIV are unprotected vaginal and anal intercourse. That's it. If you consistently use condoms for those activities you will be well protected. It really is that simple.

You don't need an HIV test nor do you need to be concerned any further about this incident.

Rubbing your penis on someone else's genital (or ass) area without penetration is called frottage, and frottage is NOT a risk for hiv infection.

Hiv is a fragile, difficult to transmit virus that is primarily transmitted INSIDE the human body, as in unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse where the virus never leaves the confines of the two bodies.

Once outside the body, small changes in temperature, and pH and moisture levels all quickly damage the virus and render it unable to infect. For this reason it does not matter if you came into contact with her vaginal fluids or someone else's cum during the frottage. Hiv is not transmitted in that way.

Here's what you need to know in order to avoid hiv infection:

You need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions until such time as you are in a securely monogamous relationship where you have both tested for ALL sexually transmitted infections together.

To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STI. Sex without a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Have a look through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use condoms with confidence.

ALTHOUGH YOU DO NOT NEED TO TEST SPECIFICALLY OVER FROTTAGE, anyone who is sexually active should be having a full sexual health care check-up, including but not limited to hiv testing, at least once a year and more often if unprotected intercourse occurs.

If you aren't already having regular, routine check-ups, now is the time to start. As long as you make sure condoms are being used for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return with negative results.

Don't forget to always get checked for all the other sexually transmitted infections as well, because they are MUCH easier to transmit than hiv.

Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently, and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple!

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Yes, you can be infected with other STIs during frottage, particularly ones that are transmitted through skin-to-skin contact like herpes, syphilis and HPV, the virus that can cause genital warts. It is also possible to be infected with other bacterial infections like gonorrhea and chlamydia through contact with another person's genital fluids.

As a sexually active adult you should be having a full sexual healthcare check-up at least once a year, regardless of your perceived risk. Some STIs can be present with no symptoms, so regular testing is the only way to know. It's what responsible adults do to protect their health and the health of their partners. Think of it like going for your annual dental check-up - you may take good care of your teeth and believe you do not have any cavities, but you go for the check-up anyway.

Provided you have always used condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, you can fully expect your hiv test to return a negative result. Other STIs are another matter. It sounds like it's time you started having regular, routine sexual health check-ups.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I've merged your new thread into your original thread - where you should post all your additional thoughts or questions. It helps us to help you when you keep all your additional thoughts or questions in one thread. It doesn't matter how long it has been since you last posted in your thread or if the subject matter is different.

If you need help finding your thread when you come here, click on the "Show own posts" link under your name in the left-hand column of any forum page.

Please also read through the Welcome Thread so you can familiarize yourself with our Forum Posting Guidelines. Thank you for your cooperation.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I took your advice and had a STD screen done (Day 4.5). It came back with positive on gonorrhea and negative on all others. They gave me treatment for the gonorrhea.

Do this say anything about my risk for contracting HIV (we still only had frottage with the condom slipped)? I am certain i did not have gonorrhea before, because I had a STD screen done a while back and all was negative. And this incident was the only time I slipped, before then only one partner whom i trust.

They also gave me a HIV ab/P24 ag test and it was negative. Is Day 4/5 results too early to be indicative? When is it indicatively accurate?

Sorry to bother ... I went to the doctor to follow up on the gonorrhea, all is good there.

The doctor then said that I should also get tested for HIV since I caught gonorrhea, which was a bit confusing.

His reasoning is that gonorhea was transmitted even though I only had frottage (rubbing my penis top of her vagina and butt), and so just to be sure, I should get tested for HIV. Is that right? with the condom slipped off some way along the process

From my understanding of what you said here, is that HIV is a very fragile virus that once outside of the body, with changes in temperature, pH level, moisture content, etc, it loses its ability to infect.

Furthermore, is it the case the HIV is found in the inner most area inside the vagina, so vaginal secretion generally don't carry that much virus?

Do I need to get tested for HIV? I really slipped this time, a bit worried and have lot of anxiety. Thanks for your help.

The fluids that a woman produces when sexually aroused come from two glands on either side of the vaginal opening, not further up and no, I've not found one shred of evidence that shows this fluid to be any more infectious than saliva, sweat or tear, and saliva, sweat and tears are NOT infectious fluids.

If you test for hiv, it's more for your peace of mind than anything. I fully expect you to test hiv negative, despite the gonorrhea.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

was thinking about the fact that I caught gonorrhea. Does that mean the head of my penis touched the CSW's vaginal fluid? Or even if the fluid got on my skin can infect me with gonorrhea?

I am still a bit concerned. Thinking that when my condom had slipped of, then the head of my penis was exposed, maybe the head touched her vagina during dry humping and got her fluid on it. Would that also increase the chance of HIV infection?

Or is it like you said, the vaginal fluid is not any more more infectious than saliva, sweat or tear, And saliva, sweat and tears are NOT infectious fluids, so I have nothing to worry about? Besides, the virus, once leaving the body is faced with a change in temperature, etc., and so becomes unable to infect.

Thank you for your explanation. I am trying to wrestle with my gonorrhea infection with the possibility of a HIV infection.

I am getting married in 5 months. And she is a great girl. I slipped and really regret it. Please help me. Thank you for your understanding and patience.

But I tell you what... It's clear that you have this hanging on in your thoughts and concerns. You're getting married in a few months. Why don't you get tested, collect the inevitable negative result and put the issue to rest. You can do it at 6 weeks post-the incident. A negative at that point points the way to testing negative again at 3 months.

I am suggesting this only for your peace of mind. You really didn't have a risk but it seems you may not be at rest about this unless you get that negative result. Just a suggestion...

I know that I am not being rational ... and that I did not have any risk.

For my sanity, would you help me understand the science a little? Want to know why during frottage, if the vagina and penis touch, with some vaginal fluid involved, how come hiv is still not a risk? Is it because of low virus level in vaginal fluid, or that virus once near the outside of the vagina is unable to infect due to temperature, pH, other environmental changes?

I know that I am not being rational ... and that I did not have any risk.

For my sanity, would you help me understand the science a little? Want to know why during frottage, if the vagina and penis touch, with some vaginal fluid involved, how come hiv is still not a risk? Is it because of low virus level in vaginal fluid, or that virus once near the outside of the vagina is unable to infect due to temperature, pH, other environmental changes?

Really appreciate it. Thank you!

HIV is a very fragile virus. In order to be transmitted sexually it needs the receptive setting which exists during unprotected vaginal and anal intercourse to remain viable. Frottage is NOT that kind of setting. And the vaginal fluids which can contain HIV are high up in the vaginal cavity and not at the vaginal lips.

I am also going to warn you that since you did not have a risk, you can't keep coming back repeatedly with just one more question. You did not have a risk. If you continue to return over this non-risk you will find yourself getting a 28 day Time Out from the site. HIV is not your problem. Your fears are the problem. Big difference.

Let it go and get on with your life. Or get tested and collect the inevitable negative result so that you put this unwarranted concern to rest.

Hope you both are doing great. Want to ask a follow-up ... please bare with me. My mind is a bit anxious these days.

It's been 2 weeks since the "frottage" and I am coming down with a sore throat. No rash or fever. Though I've been have night sweats almost every night. Having been sleeping well. Could this be the start of ARS?

secondly, my mind keeps going back to that night. I don't remember any penetration, but i keep thinking about what if? what if the action was a bit vigorous? I know that I didn't want to have sex but was dry humping without cloths. If there was penetration or "dipping", I would know right? cause the feeling would be different.

Thank you for being patient with me. As you can see in my prior posts, I was very worried from my prior incident. So was careful not to have penetration knowing how anxious I would be. But this time with the condom slippage, and my catching gonorrhea, I am a bit more worried. Some online forum says that one can only get gonorrhea with actual penetration, while others says even just the vaginal fluid getting on the penis or urethra open can transmit it. I don't know ...I am trying to assess my risk.

■Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

thanks for all your advice. i have a big question - should i start PEP?

It has been ~47 hours since the possible exposure.

I am a hetero guy met a female CSW two nights ago. Drank a lot and was making out with her. we were fooling around quite a bit but we didn't have a condom. I knew that it was not safe to have sex so tried not to ... but next thing i know, i blacked out.

When i woke up, the girl had left already. I don't remember if I ever had sex with her. I still had my underwear on though. I know that I have always been worried about unsafe sex, so if I had even one sense of consciousness, I would not have had unprotected sex. but i blacked out ... don't remember much of the night.

I called up the girl later that day and she said that we did not have sex. Though I wasn't sure if she was being honest ... I sounded worried and so not sure if she just gave me an answer I wanted. Anyways ... I followed up with her some more today and she said again that we did not have sex.

Today, the 2nd day, I called up my doctor and he said that I should be aware of PEP's side effects before starting it.

Your so-called risk is in the what if category. From what you have reported it seems unlikely that you actually had intercourse. Aside from anything else I would expect there to have been some indications on your penis -- dried fluids, scent, etc. And given your condition in which you passed out, that also points to the unlikelihood of intercourse having taken place.

Should you do PEP? I don't see it as warranted in this instance, but of course you are going to have to decide.

I do recommend that you get tested at 3 months just to confirm your negative status.

The big red flag in all of this is that you were drinking to such excess that you passed out. That's a dangerous thing to do and especially when you mix it with having casual/impulsive sex.

Also, just because the person you are with is a professional sex worker does not mean they are HIV+ or that they are irresponsible about having unprotected sex. Often I have found they are more careful than many civilians and exercise greater caution about using condoms. They want to stay healthy too.

Thanks for the advice Andy. I think my brain keeps thinking of what ifs.

In any case, I have been thinking about this risky behavior and will work hard to stop. No excuses ... plain stupidity on my part.

I called the CSW again last night and she reaffirmed that we didn't have sex. Though I still wasn't sure if she was telling the truth, because she had said a couple days back that she was quite drunk too.

So I decided to start PEP, at ~56 hour. Hopefully it'll work.

Thank you all again for the help and guidance. You all are amazing at what you do - I will need to be better going forward so not to do anything risky again.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts