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I understand that you think you are helping and I am willing to take the criticism from you. However, I ask that you please give our member Gregg Jackson, the courteous of not insulting him when he has given lots of actual man hours to assist despite having a family, a full time job and is the land use director for VA4WDA. Gregg Jackson has been extremely supportive of UFWDA and has never done anything but give UFWDA 100% support.All I ask is that you please keep your negative comments directed to those of us that are paid employees.

Insulting him? I pointed out false statements he was trying to present as facts. Is this insulting? We all have families, we all have full time jobs. We're all land use volunteers, and we're all supportive of UFWDA. Why is VAFWDA so much more important than every other group that is a part of UFWDA? Where are the negative comments?

As far as that black and white version of the Voice, I am not sure that you are looking at the whole picture. When you are selling ad space to a business, the first question that they ask is whether or not it is in full color. In addition, I am not sure that you are understanding the full concept of the revenues that would be lost to ad revenues. Where do you suppose we make up the lost revenues from ad sales that we would incur from converting to a black and white mag?

I am fully aware of these factors, and others which you may or may not be familiar with. As noted, I've dealt with these exact issues previously on several occassions.

The bottom line is that you may need to know about an organization and the full details before you can make accusations that we are not open minded or are not willing to take help when we ask for it.

Please make note of any instance where I have used a false premise about UFWDA.

The mere fact that every attempt to point out solutions is met with a solid front of denial and faith in the currently failing policies seems to support any assertions that there might be some close-minded people involved in the leadership of UFWDA.

Also, you have refused help, but you will not explain why. You asked for help. I offered to help work on the 75% unfulfilled business pledges. You refused my assistance.

In addition, we are taking advise and help from other members, like Gregg Jackson, who are 100% supportive always and are just asking what they can do rather than trying to tell us how to run the business.

Hmm, I wonder why you keep pointing out that others are "100% supportive". Does that mean they never question your conclusions? Does that mean they support UFWDA 100% as a member. I'm a 100% supporter of UFWDA. Since joining I've always paid 100% of my dues and a little extra.

If you're suggesting I'm not "100% supportive" because I won't sign-up every 4x4 user in Utah as a member of UFWDA, then I have to tell you that it's not my job to get members to UFWDA. That's part of what you are paid to do. As I've suggested, give people a tangible reason to join UFWDA, and they will. Don't just blame the members and claim "they don't understand" if you don't get what you think you deserve.

Again I will remind everyone that I have offered assistance and that assistance has been refused. I have offered to contact unfulfilled business pledges, and I have offered to include the UFWDA membership request letter and reply piece in the next U4WDA magazine. Both requests have gone without response.

It turns out that is much more productive and let us hope that he continues to support us after being insulted on the forum.

Based on my professional experience, I believe you have drawn some incorrect conclusions in explaining falling member support for UFWDA and furthermore I believe that there are many operational areas within UFWDA where significant improvements can be made to ensure the health and long-term viability of the organization.

If that's "insulting" then you should not be involved in any business on any level.

Do you plan to attend SEMA? If so, please stop by the booth so we can discuss these issues face to face. Sometimes on the internet I think it is easier to get carried away then when you are actually looking at a person and how hard they are working for you.

You aren't working for me. I stand by everything I have ever posted on this forum. Based on the facts I know about UFWDA, there are opportunities to improve performance and effectiveness through tactics alternate to your proposals. I have explained my reasoning with rational backup. The response from Carla and yourself has been that you're working hard and that I don't have all the information. You'd be surprised by the similarities between all non-profits and especially low-budget groups. Same problems, same roadblocks to reach solutions.

As far as what you can do to help, my proposal to you is that prior to selling ad space, which is not where we need help, I ask that you sell memberships to your own association. That is what I was implying in my previous note when you responded about your consulting business. What I was asking, and perhaps did not make clear, is that business and ad sales are fine, what we need help with us full roster support from state associations. If you are willing to help then can you please get your membership to come back with their full roster or at least sell some actual memberships. If you can not convince Utah members to come back at $22/member, how will you sell a $5,000 membership to a business, it is the same concept. There is little difference between membership sales and business sales in the skill set that you are using.

"Business and ad sales are fine"?

This all started with the statement that 75% of business pledges are unfulfilled. We also know that the magazine loses $40K/year. Based on that, it is very clear that business and ad sales are very far from fine. Is anyone else confused by these statements?

I know what you meant when you asked me to bring you all the members. I guess you don't know what I mean when I say that you need to give these potential members a reason to join.

"There is little difference between membership sales and business sales". Wow. Further indication of problems.

I appreciate you keeping the negative comments directed to the paid staff in the future and I am sure that you did not mean to insult a member who is putting in actual man hours to help.

Again, wow. I'm trying to put in man-hours to help, but you keep ignoring that. Why? What do you have to gain? Don't worry, you could've taken 30% of the advertising I sold.

As it is, I cannot support an organization that employs a commission-based fundraising strategy. It has also been the official position of the U4WDA BOD not to support such practices either. Since I'm just finding out about this, it means that we cannot contribute anything to UFWDA next year until the policy is changed.

If this is how you and Carla respond to other professionals who are capable and willing to offer a unique set of skills for UFWDA's benefit, then there's no need to explain why UFWDA is having trouble. Why is it that you and Carla are protecting your playground in such a way that you want to prevent others from helping you build your sand castle? That was rhetorical on my part, I know the gist of the answer. I've seen it many times before. Despite the undoubtedly exceptional efforts both of you put into UFWDA, your attitudes in response to these discussions have revealed part of the source behind UFWDA's support problems. In almost every consulting engagement I've been involved in, finding and removing the purveyors of these attitudes is usually the top priority. Organizations can't succeed with this type of closed, protective and exclusive culture. I can recommend a great book called Silos, Politics and Turf Wars.

OK MR. Jackson, Your right,I should have looked into the 4 million thing, this is info that i read some where and didn't look into.

But even at 1 mill, they are working with over 6.5 times the income we have. Not to mention a few large contributors that follow there lead pretty damn close. And hey, do whats gotta be done to get the job done, and with that kind of revenue, I'm sure we could be looking pretty right now.

So quit being part of the problem, and become part of the solution. Get out there and rally your membership to support us. If you can't, go the hell on.

SincerelyBig Daddy

If you, Carla and Marti represent our 4x4 leadership, we're doomed.

I've tried to offer assistance and my offers are refused. All anyone wants is for me to sign up members? We're discussing price points for unicorns. It doesn't matter, there are no unicorns. BRC has income because of what they do. The give the community a product worth supporting and they explain their product through good communication. BRC has many areas to improve as well (all orgs do). If UFWDA wants that kind of funding, there needs to be some hard changes. It appears those changes should start with personnel.

On the web site United list 56 Member Organizations, how many paid individual members do these organizations provide to United? If my numbers are correct VA4WDA provides approximately 600 paid members not just one Association Membership for the entire group.

Is there any chance of getting these numbers before we attend the VA4WDA meeting tonight (Oct27)? For example, the California Assoc of Four Wheel Drive Clubs state on their web site that they have 127 member clubs, what types of memberships to United are these clubs providing? It would be much better to have quality information when we discuss this at Virginia's meeting.

Quote from: Carla Boucher on October 24, 2008, 02:40:15 pm]Fact - delegates in attendance at the 2008 UFWDA AGM stated, "our association made the choice to take a wait and see attitude before supporting UFWDA with our full roster this year". I can only assume that Gregg's delegate to UFWDA, who actually did attend the 2008 AGM Steve, reported it to Gregg.

Every association said that or Gregg's? If I wasn't at the AGM, then I can't comment??

I understand that you think you are helping and I am willing to take the criticism from you. However, I ask that you please give our member Gregg Jackson, the courteous of not insulting him when he has given lots of actual man hours to assist despite having a family, a full time job and is the land use director for VA4WDA. Gregg Jackson has been extremely supportive of UFWDA and has never done anything but give UFWDA 100% support.All I ask is that you please keep your negative comments directed to those of us that are paid employees.

Insulting him? I pointed out false statements he was trying to present as facts. Is this insulting? We all have families, we all have full time jobs. We're all land use volunteers, and we're all supportive of UFWDA. Why is VAFWDA so much more important than every other group that is a part of UFWDA? Where are the negative comments?

First off, Thanks Marti, But I don't get insulted by guys like Steve. He's the type that will spin anything you say.

Steve,What I presented were not false statements, lets say they were rounded numbers. If you look at everything, not just what they put out there, heck you would think they made way more than what I said. They represent 600,000 members @ what ever they charge per member, that's allot. But this isn't about the BRC, It's an organization that working for us as well. They just do it a little different.

Why is VA4WDA more important than any other organization? It's not, but the VA4WDA is a 100% supporting associate. Which means that every member of VA is also a member of United. Can you say that about Utah, you mailed a check for $100, Va. sent in a little more than that.But the real reason VA is at the front of this, is because I got a big mouth, and I believe in what United does, and I sent my initial letter out to my Land Use Committee to get the word out. My drive was initially a VA matter until it got posted here. All that much better, these things need to come out in the open for the membership to discuss and the BOD to get our input.

Oh thank you for all of the hard work you put in to this organization.

I've tried to offer assistance and my offers are refused. All anyone wants is for me to sign up members? We're discussing price points for unicorns. It doesn't matter, there are no unicorns. BRC has income because of what they do. The give the community a product worth supporting and they explain their product through good communication. BRC has many areas to improve as well (all orgs do). If UFWDA wants that kind of funding, there needs to be some hard changes. It appears those changes should start with personnel.

All you have offered is to do is to try to sell business memberships and advertising. We have someone that was hired to do it. If you wanted the job you should have went for it. But for you to try and come in and take away this persons lively hood, instead of passing on any leads or ideas her way, is frankly BS. If you want to be supportive, talk about ways that can help get more business for us.

If all you want to do is make a profit, go sell Amway, or used cars, you would probably be good at either of those.Once again I see that you should have been in polotics or used care sales, as you will take what someone states and turn it to your own benefit. 100% support means that the organization that supports UFWDA has 100% support from the membership of that organization, unlike your organization that supports us with a $100 membership. Now I would rather see that $100 than nothing, but don't you think that you as the marketing genius that you are could rally a few more folks together.

And if your so savie about selling business memberships to businesses that have only seen a decrease in our membership, have not heard from the membership that they are using them because of us, and in a market that has everone cutting there marketing budgets because of the uncertainty of said market, show us what you can do. Land a nice account for United and pass it forward. That's volunteer support for your organization. But for you to contact someone and blow smoke about your abilities, then when they don't just snap you up because your so damn wonderful, you bad mouth them in an open forum. You are the unethical one in this scenario.

Is there any chance of getting these numbers before we attend the VA4WDA meeting tonight (Oct27)? For example, the California Assoc of Four Wheel Drive Clubs state on their web site that they have 127 member clubs, what types of memberships to United are these clubs providing? It would be much better to have quality information when we discuss this at Virginia's meeting.

David I apologize for the delay in getting these to you. Here are the numbers you requested. You will find all of the latest information in the attached PDF file for tonights meeting. As your UFWDA Membership Director I have been rather busy lately so getting into the forums sometimes takes me a bit longer.

Yes, I keep hearing that. It's commendable. If the UF attorney was in my neighborhood and focused efforts on issues here as there, we wouldn't have such a hard time trying to explain to the "out west" members why they should support UFWDA.

Steve,What I presented were not false statements, lets say they were rounded numbers. If you look at everything, not just what they put out there, heck you would think they made way more than what I said. They represent 600,000 members @ what ever they charge per member, that's allot. But this isn't about the BRC, It's an organization that working for us as well. They just do it a little different.

600,000?? Where did you get that?? Referring to $1,000,000 as $4,000,000 is not rounding. That's a false statement whether it was just a matter of being misinformed or an attempt to misrepresent the facts. As you've noted, it's just a matter of being misinformed. It happens.

Why is VA4WDA more important than any other organization? It's not, but the VA4WDA is a 100% supporting associate. Which means that every member of VA is also a member of United. Can you say that about Utah, you mailed a check for $100, Va. sent in a little more than that.

$1000, please get your facts right.

VA4WDA gets a lot of attention from UFWDA. I suspect it's a cycle of collusion. VA gives money, UF focuse on VA issues, that raises the awareness of UF within the VA org and makes it an easy decision to keep supporting UF. Put money and action on the ground in Utah, and we'd probably see the same resulting support for UF here.

All you have offered is to do is to try to sell business memberships and advertising. We have someone that was hired to do it. If you wanted the job you should have went for it. But for you to try and come in and take away this persons lively hood, instead of passing on any leads or ideas her way, is frankly BS. If you want to be supportive, talk about ways that can help get more business for us.

Huh? Is this how UF feels? I assume so since the official responses have been similar.

75% of business pledges have gone unfulfilled.

The magazine costs UF $40K/year due to lack of advertising and a bloated production budget.

It doesn't sound like this area is being properly addressed.

I'm not trying to take away anyone's livelihood. I'm not sure how that's even possible in this scenario. I offered to help address the issues that I can impact. If Marti's pride and personal income is more important than the mission of UFWDA, then that's a sad commentary on what is happening at UFWDA. Marti can have the commissions, I don't want to get paid to help a cause I'm already invested in and personally passionate about.

If all you want to do is make a profit, go sell Amway, or used cars, you would probably be good at either of those.

What? How do I want to make a profit? I just wanted to help sell advertising for UF to raise money in response to the "desparate" call for help. As I've noted, I would never accept payment from a land use group for any of my volunteer services. Helping the cause is the only reward I'm interested in.

Once again I see that you should have been in polotics or used care sales, as you will take what someone states and turn it to your own benefit. 100% support means that the organization that supports UFWDA has 100% support from the membership of that organization, unlike your organization that supports us with a $100 membership. Now I would rather see that $100 than nothing, but don't you think that you as the marketing genius that you are could rally a few more folks together.

Please give examples where I have turned other statements around for my own benefit. I expect Marti to make a post here asking you to stop insulting a UF volunteer as she did on your behalf (even though I am still waiting to find out what insults she refers to).

Again, please note it is $1000, not $100. Who's making misleading statements?

I'm not a representative of U4WDA here, I'm a concerned member of the 4x4 community trying to help. I offer 100% support of UFWDA. I pay my dues plus a little extra.

And if your so savie about selling business memberships to businesses that have only seen a decrease in our membership, have not heard from the membership that they are using them because of us, and in a market that has everone cutting there marketing budgets because of the uncertainty of said market, show us what you can do. Land a nice account for United and pass it forward. That's volunteer support for your organization. But for you to contact someone and blow smoke about your abilities, then when they don't just snap you up because your so damn wonderful, you bad mouth them in an open forum. You are the unethical one in this scenario.

How exactly am I unethical? I offered to help, I was told my help isn't necessary. I'm offering input on ways to decrease spending and increase revenue. All I've seen in response is personal attacks and defending of the currently failing policies. I don't have much faith in UFWDA at this point, I wouldn't be comfortable using my contacts to gain new support for UFWDA until some internal issues are addressed. I would be comfortable contacting businesses that have already expressed an interest in supporting UFWDA and converting them into paying business members and ad buyers. I offered this assistance and my offer was discarded. Why go out and put efforts (mine, Marti's, yours) into raising money when we can quickly and easily cut spending? Let's fish for ourselves instead of demanding that everyone give us a percentage of their catch.

The problem Steve, is that UFWDA have recognised that the overall economy is struggling and is threatening our income. Over several years many of the arguments that you have put forward have been debated by many people at UFWDA conventions and Board meetings.

Is the emphasis on increasing membership income any different from any other of the organisations that advocate for various recreations around the USA and the world? We've just stepped it up a notch to cover a predicted financial squeeze. UFWDA has been honest with our membership and following good business practice. There are some acknowledged improvements in our processes that still need addressing in the move from a volunteer based organisation to one that employs.

It would be great to be able to better deliver what the Utah four wheelers think that they should be getting for their membership fees but part of that delivery comes down to knowing the problem... sound familiar?

If UFWDA is not kept informed or asked to assist with local issues then it becomes hard to help solve them. You've been able to get involved with the discussion about finance because we made it known.... it's that simple.

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Auckland Four Wheel Drive Club Inc, 4x4 Challenges NZ Inc, NZFWDA life member

David I apologize for the delay in getting these to you. Here are the numbers you requested. You will find all of the latest information in the attached PDF file for tonights meeting. As your UFWDA Membership Director I have been rather busy lately so getting into the forums sometimes takes me a bit longer.

Let me know if there is anything else I can do to help anytime.

Tom

Thanks, it really helps. I really liked one of the ideas that we had last night at the VA4WDA meeting and the jist of it was to post on the main UFWDA Web Page a list of those Clubs and Associations that fully support UFWDA with all of their members being individual members of UFWDA and those Clubs and Associations that don't, maybe a little peer pressure would go a long way to getting some of these organizations to better support UFWDA. I'll bet that a lot of the members of these other Club and Associations don't realize what type of membership that they have in UFWDA. Just think of what UFWDA could do if they were fully funded with individual memberships by the members of these Clubs and Associations. California with 127 clubs in their Association, Pacific Northwest with an estimated 5000-8000 member (WOW) just think of what could be done.We are very lucky to have Carla and Marti living here in Virginia and our access to them, the other side of that is they do the work that they do for UFWDA because VA4WDA is so active with their support.

Tom, can you explain why there are differences in the total amount paid vs. the number of paid members? For instance - Great Lakes FWDA paid $7557 with 373 members, that comes out to approx. $20.26 per member; Minnesota 4WDA paid $5595 with 373 members, that comes out to $15 per member; Virginia paid $12300 with 488, that comes out to approx. 25.20 per member; then there's Middle Atlantic 4WDA that paid $3011 for 499 members, that comes out to approx. $6.03 per member. How does that happen?

Chris

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"Prejudice is a burden that confuses the past, threatens the future and renders the present inaccessible." - Maya Angelou

I would like to thank Carla and Marti for coming to our VA4WDA monthly meeting last night. I know we all have busy lives and for Carla itís a 2+ hour hall to get to the meeting.

We really appreciated your candor and honesty with answering our questions. So must so that VA did decide last night to donate $3700 to United. We wish it could have been more, but that was all our budget allowed for right now. There were also a couple other proposal put out at the meeting for long term financial support above and beyond our 100% membership that we will be looking at over the next few months to help United.

The fact of the matter is that United is about the only organization we have out there to keep our trails open. Weather United is fighting to keep trails open out west like in Utah or the current battle for Tellico, NC, if a trail is closed anywhere in the US, that gives those who are looking for ammo to close other trails in other states. Because once a case had gone to court and a precedent and been establish, itís not that hard to get the law passed against other trial in other states.

So for those Associations who say that United does nothing for you. If the people who are fighting to close Tellico succeed, they could and will come to your state next because a precedent has been set for closing a national forest trails system. If we are not carful we will loose all of our 4 wheeling rights soon.

I hope that these tough economic times pass quickly, as I know many of the local 4x4 shops out here in Cali are hurting, as I talked to Marlin from Marlin Crawler this past weekend at a work project we completed.

Tom, can you explain why there are differences in the total amount paid vs. the number of paid members? For instance - Great Lakes FWDA paid $7557 with 373 members, that comes out to approx. $20.26 per member; Minnesota 4WDA paid $5595 with 373 members, that comes out to $15 per member; Virginia paid $12300 with 488, that comes out to approx. 25.20 per member; then there's Middle Atlantic 4WDA that paid $3011 for 499 members, that comes out to approx. $6.03 per member. How does that happen?

Chris

1) There were a few clubs who remitted their December 2007 dues at the $15/member rate but we received them in 2008. Therefore, the math only works when their payment is divided by $15. Also, some of the number were just outright errors on my part.

a. Virginia Ė I must have made an error on their member number. I cross-checked the member numbers against the entries in QB as well as checked the math by doing the division myself. I canít explain how I missed 4 members. Virginia should be 492

b. Baltimore 4 Wheelers is one of the clubs that paid for 2007 dues but paid them in February. I included any 2007 clubs whose funds were deposited in 2008 in an attempt to stay pure to the 2008 revenue report. So a portion of their roster was paid at $15/member and additional members joining after February 2008 paid at the prevailing rate of $25. So the math isnít clear cut. I believe their membership number of 47 to be correct. They paid dues in the amount of $722 not $122.

c. MN also remitted their 2007 dues at the rate of $15/member in March. They called and I, Amanda, and they had a conversation. I wasnít about to turn down $5,000 because their treasurer paid their dues late so their price and numbers are correct.

d. Middle Atlantic membership number is 125. That was an outright error on my part when I cross checked the member numbers logged in the QB deposits against the math. MA4WDA paid on 6 different occasions so I even had a list of how much they paid and when. For the life of me I canít explain how my notes show that a payment of $2,175 divided by $22 = 286 members but thatís the figure I started out with.

I hope this helps better than with the other answer I posted originally.

1) There were a few clubs who remitted their December 2007 dues at the $15/member rate but we received them in 2008. Therefore, the math only works when their payment is divided by $15. Also, some of the number were just outright errors on my part.

a. Virginia Ė I must have made an error on their member number. I cross-checked the member numbers against the entries in QB as well as checked the math by doing the division myself. I canít explain how I missed 4 members. Virginia should be 492

b. Baltimore 4 Wheelers is one of the clubs that paid for 2007 dues but paid them in February. I included any 2007 clubs whose funds were deposited in 2008 in an attempt to stay pure to the 2008 revenue report. So a portion of their roster was paid at $15/member and additional members joining after February 2008 paid at the prevailing rate of $25. So the math isnít clear cut. I believe their membership number of 47 to be correct. They paid dues in the amount of $722 not $122.

c. MN also remitted their 2007 dues at the rate of $15/member in March. They called and I, Amanda, and they had a conversation. I wasnít about to turn down $5,000 because their treasurer paid their dues late so their price and numbers are correct.

d. Middle Atlantic membership number is 125. That was an outright error on my part when I cross checked the member numbers logged in the QB deposits against the math. MA4WDA paid on 6 different occasions so I even had a list of how much they paid and when. For the life of me I canít explain how my notes show that a payment of $2,175 divided by $22 = 286 members but thatís the figure I started out with.

I hope this helps better than with the other answer I posted originally.

Thanks, Tom!

Chris

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"Prejudice is a burden that confuses the past, threatens the future and renders the present inaccessible." - Maya Angelou