This entire post is of course speculative. It is just meant for thoughtful consideration and to play with some of the concepts intuitively. Liber AL has always been a big part of my inner life, and like most, we probably all keep our own insights to ourselves and probably stray away from any 'objective' interpretations of Liber AL, but this post is kind of the opposite of that.

If we take one of the core claims of Liber AL at face value, that it is such a cipher which contains elements related to a specific period of history and what we can expect from it, wouldn't we also expect then historical events themselves to somehow reflect some meaning back on to Liber Al? Wouldn't we expect to find a footprint of Thelema in our own living collective history, independent of our own unique insights and narratives? If so, which events and how can we understand them?

Third Chapter of Liber Al and the spirit of RHK do communicate a reckoning with a tearing down of the old orders. Significant events in history, even the rise of the internet and social media, do seem to be harmonious with this historical expectation.

Which brings me to Trump, truly a 'rich man from the west' who has introduced something in mainstream consciousness that I do not think has any other precedent.

I would like to know everyone thoughts on a 'thelemic' viewpoint of history and events, and what value or guide can we get from contemplating Liber Al in this very very tumultuous and interesting time.

Not meant to be a political discussion, fyi, just psychological and teleological.

Trump is a strange mixture. Sure he is against Islamic backwardness but in the main, If anything, Trump is coming from the mentality of the apartheid of the traditional confederate states. Yknow the folk that not know me as yet, the folk who cling to the mindless conservative directive of the xtian Bible. "The Buy-bel sayzzz ye shall not lie-ee with another marn."

The most significant revolution and challenge to the old order since AL's inception is the women's issue. It's gone from slavery to suffragettes to bra burning to women being more highly paid than men in the west in a matter of decades. That's controversial to state that women are now becoming the high earners in the West but apparently studies show it and I can see it for myself. Educated women are at the top of their game now in all professions bar surgery. A few generations ago women would be looked down on as insane or sinful if they wanted to leave an abusive partnership. Now divorce lawyers have a lot of work on their hands.

I also notice that such educated women are now, more and more, choosing their own lovers/partners as they will regardless of the man's socio-economic status and in effect she may become the main "bread winner". This is breaking down traditional Osirisian values.

"Let the woman be girt with a sword before me" "Every.....woman is a star"[i]

2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.

gerry456 wrote:Trump as AL's "rich man from the west"? A resounding no.

Then who is AL's rich man? Do you accept that this could be an historical figure, Trump or not?

I agree with you on the women's issue, but women 'lead' all minority voices and also represent the antithesis to whatever the dominant paradigm is. But that could also be more of a symptom.

I suppose the question could evolve to 'what are the historical elements' in CH3? COnsidering Ch3 represents Humanity at where we are now, it would make lots of sense that it would be riddled with historical references and if AL has any relevancy at all, it must contain historical elements from the days we are in now, which quite frankly are way more bizarre than the early 20th century.

oldfriend56 wrote:. Then who is AL's rich man? Do you accept that this could be an historical figure, Trump or not?.

Someone who gave AC money when he was down and out? Parsons? Some say it is symbolic of a solar god going down in the west.

oldfriend56 wrote:. Do you accept that this could be an historical figure, Trump or not?.

As above, surely it is a specific prophecy about AC receiving funds in his lifetime according to his mission as prophet. AL also , according to AC, predicted the fate of a mistress who "toyed with old sweetnesses". Why do you want it to be Trump? I don't get the context of the words of RHK about a rich man from the west and some President 11 decades down the line.

oldfriend56 wrote:. I agree with you on the women's issue, but women 'lead' all minority voices . .

Do they? My female bosses don't. On a macrocosmic scale I don't know if females stand up for the perceived oppressed moreso either.

oldfriend56 wrote:. and also represent the antithesis to whatever the dominant paradigm is. .

What? As above. There's a lot of Sarah Palins out there y'know.

oldfriend56 wrote:. . But that could also be more of a symptom..

A symptom of what?

oldfriend56 wrote:. . I suppose the question could evolve to 'what are the historical elements' in CH3? COnsidering Ch3 represents Humanity at where we are now, it would make lots of sense that it would be riddled with historical references and if AL has any relevancy at all, it must contain historical elements from the days we are in now, which quite frankly are way more bizarre than the early 20th century.

Well yeah the relevancy of AL today is the advice I get about avoiding

1. hurt

and

2. the direful judgements of RHK

I just don't care about politics or who the people get excited about. I don't know why anyone would want to preoccupy themselves with such trivia?

2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.

III,2: There is division hither homeward; there is a word not known. Spelling is defunct; all is not aught. Beware! Hold! Raise the spell of Ra-Hoor-Khuit!

The instruction is there. Hold off until you reach the words Ra-Hoor-Khuit! (And don't think that R-Hoor-Khuit is the same... spelling is defunct!)

That takes us to :

III,39: All this and a book to say how thou didst come hither and a reproduction of this ink and paper for ever -- for in it is the word secret & not only in the English -- and thy comment upon this the Book of the Law shall be printed beautifully in red ink and black upon beautiful paper made by hand; and to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds. Do this quickly!III,40: But the work of the comment? That is easy; and Hadit burning in thy heart shall make swift and secure thy pen.

III,39 then relates back to 1,39 with the word Thelema in Greek which I have posted about already with its deliberate 'code'.

You need to jump around according to instruction.

Did your teachers not give you a dummy test which started 'Read the following instructions.'? It then gave you whole load of things to do including complex maths etc. Then at the end it said, 'After you have you read the instructions raise your hand'. I was the only one to raise their hand after 10 seconds. I got to go home early.

The same goes for the Bible. For example, you know of those dreadful anti-gay laws in Leviticus?

18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

But if you read 18:2-3 it says:After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.

In other words, everything that follows is a doing to Egypt and Canaan which is not to be followed. Only follow those ordinances which say 'I am the Lord your God'.

Like the test, the command is reiterated in 18:30Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God.

It even qualifies the command not to keep the above abominable customs (and 18:22 contains the word abomination) with I am the Lord your God.

You see? People need to learn to read. Liber L mimics the Bible in that respect.

And that is the lesson, and here is my comment in red and black on hand-made paper which is re-generated by the computer every time you click the mouse, hence it is hand-made!

There is reading and there is reading and understanding.

I,54: Change not as much as the style of a letter; for behold! thou, o prophet, shalt not behold all these mysteries hidden therein.I,55: The child of thy bowels, he shall behold them.I,56: Expect him n ot from the East, nor from the West; for from no expected house cometh that child. Aum! All words are sacred and all prophets true;

oldfriend56 wrote:. Then who is AL's rich man? Do you accept that this could be an historical figure, Trump or not?.

Someone who gave AC money when he was down and out? Parsons? Some say it is symbolic of a solar god going down in the west.

Ok, sure maybe that was *his* personal meaning, just like any Thelemite I suppose will have their own sync or interpretative meaning, but I'm asking about the collective historical. RHK is not me, it is not you, it is not them, RHK is all of humanity, right now. So 'There cometh a rich man from the west' is perhaps for all of us too, and if so - who is it?

oldfriend56 wrote:. Do you accept that this could be an historical figure, Trump or not?.

As above, surely it is a specific prophecy about AC receiving funds in his lifetime according to his mission as prophet. AL also , according to AC, predicted the fate of a mistress who "toyed with old sweetnesses". Why do you want it to be Trump? I don't get the context of the words of RHK about a rich man from the west and some President 11 decades down the line.

okay, please don't mistake this query. I DONT want it to be Trump, and without getting into politics, I am less than thrilled by his presence in our history, thelemic or otherwise. However, I do acknowledge him historically, he is significant.

AC informs us that the third chapter relates to humanity at our present time, if all AL is is a bunch of personal hints and puzzles for AC to follow it's not much use to us, no?

oldfriend56 wrote:. I agree with you on the women's issue, but women 'lead' all minority voices . .

Do they? My female bosses don't. On a macrocosmic scale I don't know if females stand up for the perceived oppressed moreso either.

I mean more macro statistically. It's a numbers thing. Consider; Globally all nations in some way have been emerging from male dominated cultures, so naturally women are literally the first and only minority voice. Then, in western countries, minority voices emerge but in smaller number - for example black voices, gay voices, jewish voices, atheist voices, etc

So when we see the largest minority voice rise up, it is a good sign that it is the first in a longer curve of other minority voices trailing behind. Note the women's rights in this country predated civil rights, which predated gay rights.

What? As above. There's a lot of Sarah Palins out there y'know.

yes, but they arn't the ladies marchin either

oldfriend56 wrote:. . But that could also be more of a symptom..

A symptom of what?

A 'symptom' of the breakdown of the older order and the emergence of the new order.

Well yeah the relevancy of AL today is the advice I get about avoiding

1. hurt

and

2. the direful judgements of RHK

Ok sure, you want to focus on your personal results and applications, I get that.

I just don't care about politics or who the people get excited about. I don't know why anyone would want to preoccupy themselves with such trivia?

A zeitgiest is nothing more than a 'spirit of the times'. AL claims to literally be THE 'spirit' of the aeon.

SO it depends why Thelema or AL interests you.

For some of us, we want to be apart of a better more conscious more aware world. We want to help and serve the emergence of a new more sane and productive world and society.

Events in history are apart of a continued curve of dialogue leading to more and more liberation of humanity. AL could, or should be a tool for those who can apply it in that way, and using it as an historical map is like a 'YOU ARE HERE' arrow on a map.

I wish I understood more of your post, I only intuitively grasp a bit of it, taking instructions at clear face value. I'm not sure how it relates to the historical Thelema or if there is anything you can elaborate on succinctly, it's difficult territory to communicate.

I suppose the whole Frog Kek Pepe consciousness phenomenon is related to Thelema and Al insofar as people are now discussing the impact of Egyptian deities once more.

2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.