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Being disliked for your manner is far less hurtful than being disliked for simply being what you are.

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"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Maffia." - Winston Niles Rumfoord.

I'm with you DevilEyes. I am on page 445 and I find Tyrion the most funny, charming and smart character thus far.

Tyrion seems incredibly funny, charming and smart to the reader. In the books the general public and pretty much all his associates find him disgusting because of his behaviour and manner. In the show he's much more... suave and restrained.

I could name countless scenes in the books that have either been removed or vastly changed in the show to make Tyrion more polite and honourable. I won't though obviously cus people are still reading.

Ayelbourne wrote:

He's not supposed to be ugly on the show. A character actually acknowledges at some point that he's quite handsome if you overlook the size issue (I'm so going to the special hell for that one...).

I know, I just think it takes away from the character. I don't think people would call Peter Dinklage a demon or a gargoyle.

I'm with you DevilEyes. I am on page 445 and I find Tyrion the most funny, charming and smart character thus far.

Tyrion seems incredibly funny, charming and smart to the reader. In the books the general public and pretty much all his associates find him disgusting because of his behaviour and manner. In the show he's much more... suave and restrained.

I could name countless scenes in the books that have either been removed or vastly changed in the show to make Tyrion more polite and honourable. I won't though obviously cus people are still reading.

I concur. I wonder how closely they'll stick to the book next season, though.

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"Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind. It might not take you anywhere, but it tones up the muscles that can." - Terry Pratchett.

Likable to readers doesn't mean likable within the story. A lot of Tyrion's humor, and his taste in associates, is too crass for the society in which he operates; it's not just his appearance that makes people shy away from him. He's really rather sneering and insinuating. Because the reader is in Tyrion's head and on his side, it's less obvious, but an awful lot of his funny lines are not actually appropriate things to say to people if you care about being liked. Which he doesn't, because he's decided no one is going to like him no matter how polite he is.

Does Tyriol behave like he wants to be liked? Heck, no. Tyrion is sardonic and insulting, but in a smart way. That's not what what I associate with the word "gross". Gross is how Viserys behaves to his sister. And I don't know what the show has changed about Tyrion's manner, but I don't see the need for it. To the reader, a lot of the accepted behavior of the society described in the book is gross, and the reader is only likely to side with Tyrion for mocking them.

It's actually funny to say that Tyrion's behavior is "too crass to the society in which he operates", when this society is overall very crass, with few exceptions. At least from our point of view.

DalekJim wrote:

I know, I just think it takes away from the character. I don't think people would call Peter Dinklage a demon or a gargoyle.

But how large a pool of great dwarf actors who could play that role is in the first place? And were they really going to turn down Dinklage on the grounds that he just wasn't ugly enough, and look for "a really ugly little person" to fill the role?

But how large a pool of great dwarf actors who could play that role is in the first place? And were they really going to turn down Dinklage on the grounds that he just wasn't ugly enough, and look for "a really ugly little person" to fill the role?

Dinklage was always the first choice of author George R.R. Martin and producers to play the role of Tyrion.

Because he is goddamn talented moreso than he physically resembles the character in the books.

Much like Ned, Robert and most of the other adult leads, he is physically quite unlike his book counterpart due to being aged 15 years and the casting director being limited to people who actually exist. (Ned looks like Sean Bean because Sean Bean is a BAMF, resemblance be damned.)

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"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Maffia." - Winston Niles Rumfoord.

Peter Dinklage was the only actor who was offered the part of Tyrion, no one else was auditioned for it and the producers never thought of anyone else for the role.
Other actors were auditioned for Ned, but only in case Sean Bean refused. He was the producers' first choice for Ned.

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Chemistry is physics without a thought
Mathematics is physics without a purpose

Mark Addy is far from perfect. Robert was a demigod amongst men. Tall, strong, handsome, etc. Yes he went to seed, yes he was fat and well past his prime, but in no world was Mark Addy's Robert ever the Robert Baratheon who won the war swinging his enormous warhammer one handed and charming every girl who crossed his path. Likewise, Renly suffered for being just as unimpressive. I never believed for a moment that anyone would follow either of them into battle.

I haven't seen Renly on screen yet (still just seen the first episode!) but in the book he's described as the most handsome man Sansa had ever seen, and looking at the pics of the actor online... I guess she hadn't seen that many men.

Sansa was also sweet on Loras Tyrell, especially after he gave her the rose at the Hand's Tourney.

Boy, she sure can pick 'em!

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I may appear unoccupied to you, but at the molecular level, I'm really quite busy.

Sansa was also sweet on Loras Tyrell, especially after he gave her the rose at the Hand's Tourney.

Boy, she sure can pick 'em!

I haven't gotten to this part yet (the tourney's just about to start) but it's not much of a spoiler, I guess.

Speaking of jerks Sansa had a crush on, I'm going to speculate a bit about the things most of you l know already. I was spoiled on Jaime/Cercei going on, but from the moment it was revealed in the book, I suspected that what they're trying to hide isn't just that, but that Joffrey is not Robert's son and that his uncle is his real dad. Now I've read the part where they talk about the late Jon Arryn taking an interest in a book about genealogy of noble families (and that story about how he supposedly was mentioning Robert's son on his deathbed), and I'm currently 100% sure my inkling is right, to the point that I'm going to be really surprised and disappointed if it doesn't turn out to be true. I'm just waiting to see how, when and who gets to find out.

What I'm not sure about is the other two kids. I'm wondering if the fact that little Tommen is chubby was mentioned as a clue that he's really Robert's son. In real life, I naturally wouldn't think any of it - many children are fat and grow up to be slim, and Robert was athletic when he was young and we don't know what he was like as a child, but he may also be one of those men who are prone to gaining weight and who are chubby as children, slim down in their early youth but then get fat pretty early. Mainly, I'm going to guess that Tommen is Robert's son, because 1) when something is mentioned in a book it's likely to be a clue and 2) it would make the story more complicated and interesting (not to mention dangerous for Tommen, if the spoiled brat learns he's not king's real son but his little brother is) - not in this book, probably, but down the line.

Sansa was also sweet on Loras Tyrell, especially after he gave her the rose at the Hand's Tourney.

Boy, she sure can pick 'em!

I haven't gotten to this part yet (the tourney's just about to start) but it's not much of a spoiler, I guess.

Speaking of jerks Sansa had a crush on, I'm going to speculate a bit about the things most of you l know already. I was spoiled on Jaime/Cercei going on, but from the moment it was revealed in the book, I suspected that what they're trying to hide isn't just that, but that Joffrey is not Robert's son and that his uncle is his real dad. Now I've read the part where they talk about the late Jon Arryn taking an interest in a book about genealogy of noble families (and that story about how he supposedly was mentioning Robert's son on his deathbed), and I'm currently 100% sure my inkling is right, to the point that I'm going to be really surprised and disappointed if it doesn't turn out to be true. I'm just waiting to see how, when and who gets to find out.

What I'm not sure about is the other two kids. I'm wondering if the fact that little Tommen is chubby was mentioned as a clue that he's really Robert's son. In real life, I naturally wouldn't think any of it - many children are fat and grow up to be slim, and Robert was athletic when he was young and we don't know what he was like as a child, but he may also be one of those men who are prone to gaining weight and who are chubby as children, slim down in their early youth but then get fat pretty early. Mainly, I'm going to guess that Tommen is Robert's son, because 1) when something is mentioned in a book it's likely to be a clue and 2) it would make the story more complicated and interesting (not to mention dangerous for Tommen, if the spoiled brat learns he's not king's real son but his little brother is) - not in this book, probably, but down the line.

But don't tell me if I'm right or not.

You are right. Or you may not actually be right. In this day and age, who can know?

I need to reread the books. I read for the first time a little over a year ago, and since then the show and the books have become somewhat conflated in my head. One of the biggest difference in how the story translates into the medium of television is that we as viewers believe what we see, expecting the screen to show us the objective reality of what is going on. The books, on the other hand, show us reality as it is perceived by the POV character in question. Sansa, for example, has grown up in the remote backwater city of Winterfell, spending her whole life reading fairy tales about the noble knights and fair maidens of the south. Now she is actually there, seeing it all with her own eyes, yet she still has the fairy tale ideal stuck in her head. Of course Renly, Loras, Joffrey, and the rest are beautiful noble knights - all the knights from the old stories are like that.

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"In the name of the best within you, do not sacrifice this world to those who are its worst."

Peter Dinklage was the only actor who was offered the part of Tyrion, no one else was auditioned for it and the producers never thought of anyone else for the role.
Other actors were auditioned for Ned, but only in case Sean Bean refused. He was the producers' first choice for Ned.

I don't suppose you know what other actors were auditioned for Ned, or have they kept the names quiet?

Peter Dinklage was the only actor who was offered the part of Tyrion, no one else was auditioned for it and the producers never thought of anyone else for the role.
Other actors were auditioned for Ned, but only in case Sean Bean refused. He was the producers' first choice for Ned.

I don't suppose you know what other actors were auditioned for Ned, or have they kept the names quiet?

It is something I've read in one of their interviews, D&D didn't say who the other actors were. I suppose those had to be pretty big names ...

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Chemistry is physics without a thought
Mathematics is physics without a purpose