Yes I can blame Kimi, Romain has shown that even in the first race of the season the Lotus in the hands of a rookie was good enough to qualify third, and in Hungary he looked very fast until he went slower in Q3 than he did in Q2. The fact is he's been unable to perform in qualifying, and you attempts to place the blame on the car are overturned by his rookie team mate's performance in the same car.

If you think Hamilton can't adapt to the tyres you should rewatch Barcelona where he was the only driver to pull of a two stop, and the fact that he appears to manage the tyres better than his WDC team mate who is known for being smooth and looking after his tyres, he even spoke abouut changing his style in the race and inducing understeer to make the tyres last. I'll say it again, the characteristics of the engine affect tyre wear and the Renault with its cutting of cylinders has an advantage of the Mercedes engine powered cars in that area.

No actually its been factors outside of his control, such as being disqualified from pole because his team didn't put in enough fuel (just read my sig for the rest), the only times I've really seen the McLaren struggle for pace is at Bahrain, Monaco, and Valencia which are all tracks that highlight the McLaren's weakness in slow corners and on traction.

Hamilton a narrow operating range? Do you have an evidence to support such a theory particularly because he's a driver Alonso has acknowledged as being able to get the maximum and more than the maximum out of the car.

Mclaren lack of tractions??? thats the lamest excuses ever~~ do you know how he got pole in barcelona?? thanks to the 3rd sectors full of slow corners!! try something better m8

LMAO, Alonso can do nothing more than acknowledge him as he was beaten by lewis!! If he said lewis aint good, indirectly hinting he wasnt good either!! Have enough of alonso 's mind games throughout his career!! In fact lewis has only driven half season on a bad car and as deserve, he was poor!! Only after massive upgrades from mclaren lewis start winning races in 2009, and at the same time, kimi whose car already halted development in mid season, only scored 1 point lesser than lewis in 2nd half of the season with a win and 5 podiums!! Lewis is famous of poor race pace~~ nth to do with adapbility!!

Yes I can blame Kimi, Romain has shown that even in the first race of the season the Lotus in the hands of a rookie was good enough to qualify third, and in Hungary he looked very fast until he went slower in Q3 than he did in Q2. The fact is he's been unable to perform in qualifying, and you attempts to place the blame on the car are overturned by his rookie team mate's performance in the same car.

If you think Hamilton can't adapt to the tyres you should rewatch Barcelona where he was the only driver to pull of a two stop, and the fact that he appears to manage the tyres better than his WDC team mate who is known for being smooth and looking after his tyres, he even spoke abouut changing his style in the race and inducing understeer to make the tyres last. I'll say it again, the characteristics of the engine affect tyre wear and the Renault with its cutting of cylinders has an advantage of the Mercedes engine powered cars in that area.

No actually its been factors outside of his control, such as being disqualified from pole because his team didn't put in enough fuel (just read my sig for the rest), the only times I've really seen the McLaren struggle for pace is at Bahrain, Monaco, and Valencia which are all tracks that highlight the McLaren's weakness in slow corners and on traction.

Hamilton a narrow operating range? Do you have an evidence to support such a theory particularly because he's a driver Alonso has acknowledged as being able to get the maximum and more than the maximum out of the car.

You blame Kimi for not being good in qualifying, but I can't blame Hamilton for underperfoming in the race? You know how's that called, surely?Your whole logic is composed that Grosjean isn't any good, so that translates somehow that Kimi is shit. What if Romain is on Kimi's level just as was Lewis against Alonso in 2007?

I agree about Barcelona, it was stunning by Lewis. But, the exception just confirms the rule. He managed the tyres back then because he put them in right operating windows. But in Valencia i.e he destroyed tyres for not putting them in their comfortable zone. About Renault and Mercedes stuff, that's just all speculation.

So you say they didn't put enough fuel? So what? Team screwed Kimi's qualifying in Australia, they didn't let him know to hurry up. In Bahrain they've said he should stayed in garage otherwise he could comfortably went into Q3? Are those his mistakes? Or Canada differential problems?

As for Button, yes he is smooth, but I've said it already. If you don't put your tyres at the right temperature they DEGRADE A LOT FASTER, and Jenson has big problems with that this season.

Hamilton narrow operating range is just a theory of course, but qualifying vs race pace is mind boggling. As Button is not yardstick we can't be so sure what's happening, but you claim to the conclusion that McLaren has narrow operating range? Why Lotus can't have narrow operating range in qualifying?

Indeed. He disagrees about Kimi should be to blame for his quali performances -because he thinks it´s down to car characteristics-, to play the opposite trick on Lewis, it´s him, not the car. He doesn´t like what Kvothe does, but still responds with exactly the same BS

Wake up people. If you think Kimi can´t qualify or Lewis can´t race, you´re not paying any attention, because they´ve been long enough around to show that´s just crap. It´s just that they´re at cars with these characteristics, that add on their natural driving: Lotus is keen on tyres, McLaren is rough on them. So Kimi, already keen on tyres, is going to look worse than usual on Saturday, and Lewis, already rough on tyres, will look worse than usual on Sunday.

Can the Lotus qualify better? Sure, put someone harsher in there, Grosjean is doing it close to pole sometimes. But don´t expect him to also have less tyre wear and keep his pace then, it´s his way, and it has pros and cons. Can the McLaren race better? Sure, put someone careful in there. But then don´t expect him to qualify like Lewis.

Wake up people. If you think Kimi can´t qualify or Lewis can´t race, you´re not paying any attention, because they´ve been long enough around to show that´s just crap. It´s just that they´re at cars with these characteristics, that add on their natural driving: Lotus is keen on tyres, McLaren is rough on them. So Kimi, already keen on tyres, is going to look worse than usual on Saturday, and Lewis, already rough on tyres, will look worse than usual on Sunday.

Piquet jr.... he's pretty stupid. Just one question... if Lotus duo are weak as some are giving a big thumbs up to NPJ over his comment... I wonder where would Mclaren & RedBull duo stand!

And that too in a car that has multiple poles, 3wins & multiple top 3 starts in the 11 races gone by. Now some would say Kimi is weak in qualifying... in return... can it not be said that Mclaren & RedBull duo are weak in the races.

Lotus drivers move forward with the package they have... but Mclaren & RedBull drivers are so weak at the moment that they go backwards in the races.... & cannot make the best out of prime positions on the starting grid. Example... Button & Vettel kissing Narain Kartikayen, in a pretty wide circuit.

*** Pretty funny to read how some love to bash Raikkonen.. who has come back & literally slapped his shoe size all over their faces. Now, agreeing with NPJr is seriously how low it's gotten against the finn.***I personally think Webber, Vettel, Hamilton, Button are excellent drivers too... I say weak only as an example and retort to the theory about the Lotus duo. Also, in no way is Button, Hamilton, Vettel & Webber any greater than Kimi Raikkonen.

Can the Lotus qualify better? Sure, put someone harsher in there, Grosjean is doing it close to pole sometimes. But don´t expect him to also have less tyre wear and keep his pace then, it´s his way, and it has pros and cons.

Somehow it were Kimi's tyres that fell from the clif in the China. Somehow Grosjean had better pace than Kimi in Canada where he made one stopper work. Somehow Grosjean managed great recovery with great pace at Silverstone despite forced early stop.

And it's not like Kimi didn't have the pace in quali, where in Hungary he had better pace than Grosjean up to the fina session. Kimi admited many times that he messed up his quali runs, for example Barcelona.

Somehow it were Kimi's tyres that fell from the clif in the China. Somehow Grosjean had better pace than Kimi in Canada where he made one stopper work. Somehow Grosjean managed great recovery with great pace at Silverstone despite forced early stop.

And it's not like Kimi didn't have the pace in quali, where in Hungary he had better pace than Grosjean up to the fina session. Kimi admited many times that he messed up his quali runs, for example Barcelona.

Sory for ruining your argument. Couldn't help it

All Romain did was made his Pit-Stop earlier than others, thanks to his own mistake. There is nothing great in that if he had the same number of Pitstops as the others. It wasn't like he made an extra stop. And the Tyres were durable for everyone in that particular race.

What is a great recovery- Kimi, Hamilton & Webber starting around 17-20... and finishing comfortably in the top 10.

All Romain did was made his Pit-Stop earlier than others, thanks to his own mistake. There is nothing great in that if he had the same number of Pitstops as the others. It wasn't like he made an extra stop. And the Tyres were durable for everyone in that particular race.

What is a great recovery- Kimi, Hamilton & Webber starting around 17-20... and finishing comfortably in the top 10.

Just look at Hamilton's performance in Germany to know what's wrong with early pit stop. Please, I'm so tired with this crap being repeated all the time. Somehow only Kimi's fans hold that position, but this doesn't supprise me anymore. What's so hard in admitting that was great performance?

Somehow it were Kimi's tyres that fell from the clif in the China. Somehow Grosjean had better pace than Kimi in Canada where he made one stopper work. Somehow Grosjean managed great recovery with great pace at Silverstone despite forced early stop.

Yes, and in Monaco it was Kimi´s tyres falling appart too. But the trend is obviously different from that. Grosjean is generally faster straight away, Kimi is faster in long runs.

And it's not like Kimi didn't have the pace in quali, where in Hungary he had better pace than Grosjean up to the fina session. Kimi admited many times that he messed up his quali runs, for example Barcelona.

Again, these are particular examples. Usually it happens as I said before. Lotus has stated in numerous times they use tyres in these two different ways, it´s not a secret or something only an iluminated can see.

Sorry for ruining your argument. Couldn't help it

If you feel the need to say you ruined other´s argument, it usually means you didn´t.

Just look at Hamilton's performance in Germany to know what's wrong with early pit stop.

I do think Grosjean performance was good in Britain, and the early stop was overall a handicap for him, clearly. But that´s a moronic example, borderline deliberate trolling.

Lewis had a puncture INTO TURN 1, and pottered around for a lap. That´s what costed him most, way more than a compromised strategy. Had he got a puncture in the penultimun corner, and simply had a very early stop, he would have still scored big points. Grosjean´s incident compromised a bit his strategy and of course was a handicap, but it´s really stupid comparison.

These comparison is just as stupid as saying Grosjean´s stop helped him overall.

Yes, and in Monaco it was Kimi´s tyres falling appart too. But the trend is obviously different from that. Grosjean is generally faster straight away, Kimi is faster in long runs.

Again, these are particular examples. Usually it happens as I said before. Lotus has stated in numerous times they use tyres in these two different ways, it´s not a secret or something only an iluminated can see.

Yes, I know that Kimi is usually better in the races. But I was arguing against your claim that Grosjean can't manage his tyres.

If you feel the need to say you ruined other´s argument, it usually means you didn´t.

Nah. I meant it. I'm rather stubborn and picky person. I try to work on it but it's hard

Yes, I know that Kimi is usually better in the races. But I was arguing against your claim that Grosjean can't manage his tyres.

But I didn´t ever said that!! Grosjean has done long stints when needed, and going pretty fast too. Just saying they go different ways on their setup and tyre use, and that explains why one has an edge Saturday and the other has it on Sunday.

I do think Grosjean performance was good in Britain, and the early stop was overall a handicap for him, clearly. But that´s a moronic example, borderline deliberate trolling.

Lewis had a puncture INTO TURN 1, and pottered around for a lap. That´s what costed him most, way more than a compromised strategy. Had he got a puncture in the penultimun corner, and simply had a very early stop, he would have still scored big points. Grosjean´s incident compromised a bit his strategy and of course was a handicap, but it´s really stupid comparison.

These comparison is just as stupid as saying Grosjean´s stop helped him overall.

Whatever. Every reasonable person will agree that was great performance without the need to go into details or arguing some hypothetical circumstances.

But I didn´t ever said that!! Grosjean has done long stints when needed, and going pretty fast too. Just saying they go different ways on their setup and tyre use, and that explains why one has an edge Saturday and the other has it on Sunday.

You said not to expect Grosjean to have pace while not having tyre wear. And I gave you counter examples where he had the pace and didn't have tyre wear

Somehow it were Kimi's tyres that fell from the clif in the China. Somehow Grosjean had better pace than Kimi in Canada where he made one stopper work. Somehow Grosjean managed great recovery with great pace at Silverstone despite forced early stop.

And it's not like Kimi didn't have the pace in quali, where in Hungary he had better pace than Grosjean up to the fina session. Kimi admited many times that he messed up his quali runs, for example Barcelona.

Sory for ruining your argument. Couldn't help it

Kimi's tyres fell from the cliff is his mistake, I agree. Couldn't put the tyres on right temperature. Canada is not comparable as they were on different strategy and Grosjean had better tyres for the final stint on his car. As for the Silverstone I don't know what's your point. Kimi went in Hockenheim in pit on 6 lap and overtook a lot of people in front. Generally for Lotus was better strategy to pit early in those races.

Just look at Hamilton's performance in Germany to know what's wrong with early pit stop. Please, I'm so tired with this crap being repeated all the time. Somehow only Kimi's fans hold that position, but this doesn't supprise me anymore. What's so hard in admitting that was great performance?

QUOTE (korzeniow @ Aug 25 2012, 23:29) Somehow it were Kimi's tyres that fell from the clif in the China. Somehow Grosjean had better pace than Kimi in Canada where he made one stopper work. Somehow Grosjean managed great recovery with great pace at Silverstone despite forced early stop.

You claiming to get tired is pretty lame ... considering you are the one who repeated it in the first place!! If you make repeat statements, you will get repeat arguments.

Kimi's tyres fell from the cliff is his mistake, I agree. Couldn't put the tyres on right temperature. Canada is not comparable as they were on different strategy and Grosjean had better tyres for the final stint on his car. As for the Silverstone I don't know what's your point. Kimi went in Hockenheim in pit on 6 lap and overtook a lot of people in front. Generally for Lotus was better strategy to pit early in those races.

QUOTE (korzeniow @ Aug 25 2012, 23:29) Somehow it were Kimi's tyres that fell from the clif in the China. Somehow Grosjean had better pace than Kimi in Canada where he made one stopper work. Somehow Grosjean managed great recovery with great pace at Silverstone despite forced early stop.

You claiming to get tired is pretty lame ... considering you are the one who repeated it in the first place!! If you make repeat statements, you will get repeat arguments.

Obviously I meant that theory, spreaded in Kimi's fans circle, of pitting right after start of the race is nothing unusual and wrong is crap.

Obviously I meant that theory, spreaded in Kimi's fans circle, of pitting right after start of the race is nothing unusual and wrong is crap.

And obviously I meant that theory, constantly repeated by you to claim Kimi is useless when compared to Grosjean's brilliance (see above) is pretty lame.

You can honey pick events all you like, it's still doesn't change the fact that Kimi Raikkonen is a superior driver to Grosjean in every way... even in theory. Qualifying issues will be resolved soon, it's obvious Kimi is getting the hang of things already in the last two races, where he topped the dry Q2 in Germany and was faster than Grosjean in all session in Hungary. He did make a rare mistake in Q3... but then absolutely smoked the entire field which included Button, Vettel & Grosjean in the Race. Hamilton managed to hold him off only thanks to Hungary Layout.

If Grosjean was so good with tyre management then why couldn't he do what Kimi did (overcut Alo,But,Vet,Groj). He too could have posted some storming laps to overcut Hamilton. He did not have the pace in any case, as Kimi ran away chasing Hamilton, while Grosjean was left to stave off Vettel with the gap opening up to about 10 seconds, even though the Lotus duo were side by side after their final pitstop.

And obviously I meant that theory, constantly repeated by you to claim Kimi is useless when compared to Grosjean's brilliance (see above) is pretty lame.

You can honey pick events all you like, it's still doesn't change the fact that Kimi Raikkonen is a superior driver to Grosjean in every way... even in theory. Qualifying issues will be resolved soon, it's obvious Kimi is getting the hang of things already in the last two races, where he topped the dry Q2 in Germany and was faster than Grosjean in all session in Hungary. He did make a rare mistake in Q3... but then absolutely smoked the entire field which included Button, Vettel & Grosjean in the Race. Hamilton managed to hold him off only thanks to Hungary Layout.

If Grosjean was so good with tyre management then why couldn't he do what Kimi did (overcut Alo,But,Vet,Groj). He too could have posted some storming laps to overcut Hamilton. He did not have the pace in any case, as Kimi ran away chasing Hamilton, while Grosjean was left to stave off Vettel with the gap opening up to about 10 seconds, even though the Lotus duo were side by side after their final pitstop.

You are impossible man, I can't belive my eyes. I already wrote two posts explaining my point and then third that linked to them in case somebody missed it. You even quoted that post. And yet you are arguing about something completly diffrent putting theories in my mouth. It's lost cause. I won't debate with you.

You are impossible man, I can't belive my eyes. I already wrote two posts explaining my point and then third that linked to them in case somebody missed it. You even quoted that post. And yet you are arguing about something completly diffrent putting theories in my mouth. It's lost cause. I won't debate with you.

No issues.

Anyway, Kimi, Grosjean & Lotus will be the most talked about team in Spa in any case. Also, Lotus looks set to introduce what they call "The Device". They certainly have been the most interesting team & driver combo so far this season. They are always in the news.

The amount of press/coverage Lotus has received this year must be making their sponsors super happy with the drivers & the team. Lotus would definitely get some major financial backing from their current sponsors, add that with a huge payout if they finish 4th or better in WCC... we are looking at a very fast car in 2013.

Compared to the current weak Lotus drivers, NPJr likes to spin his Renault in the wall instead of working hard to become a better driver.

Piquet Jr claims Alonso would be champion in 2012 Sauber, 22nd November 2012

Fernando Alonso's former teammate thinks the Spaniard could have been this year's world champion at the wheel of a Sauber.

Nelson Piquet jr, who was Alonso's teammate at Renault in 2008 and 2009, thinks the 2012 Ferrari has been outclassed by the likes of Lotus and Sauber this season.

"The Ferrari is worse than those two, but sometimes a miracle is done because of Alonso. I think if he was in a Sauber or Lotus he would be world champion easily," said the Brazilian, who switched to Nascar after the 2009 'crashgate' scandal, told Jovem Pan radio.

"I see those cars (Lotus and Sauber) in the front sometimes, but there is always the question: is it the car or the driver?" added Piquet, now 27.

The Brazilian looks back at his F1 career with some sadness, but insisted: "Alonso was not guilty of anything. It was great to have a teammate of his level. Before, when I was testing with Fisichella and Kovalainen, I could go at the same pace, but when I started to be with Alonso, I was suddenly half a second slower. Alonso made me work like crazy to find that there was more in me."

Of F1's next generation after him, Piquet said: "The two at Force India look good, and those at Toro Rosso seem better than Buemi and Alguersuari."

Commenting on some others on today's grid, he continued: "Maldonado has always been fast but makes many mistakes. Perez has done a few good races, but we don't know if that's just because of the car. I think Button will be better than him at McLaren."

Anyway, I don't think so, people think the Ferrari is shitty because Massa was shitty, but recently Massa showed it was him that was doing bad, ofcourse Alonso was doing well, but Massa recently has been very close to Alonso, that Ferrari is not a bad car at all, it certainly is as good, if not better than the Lotus.

A guy like Piquet will always have the cards: "he's a cheater" against him by some fans whenever he says something that is not very flaterring of their idols or when he says something positive about a driver somebody hates(in this case Alonso which is hated by most Lewis and Kimi fans, to say the least)

It's good that Piquet says what I said many times ago: Sauber is/was a better car than Ferrari.

Ok, it's been quite a while since Ferrari improved by some good margin and is usually faster than Sauber, but that is also due to Sauber being a horrible car in mickey mouse sections, which comprosises most of F1 tracks these days. But everytime there is a high speed corner's circuit like Spa or Suzuka, Sauber is again faster than Ferrari on Q, to say the least.

In the early parts of the year, Sauber was faster in most of the tracks, though. They just didn't have the money to keep up with the development race.

PS: Sauber was also better than Ferrari in Monza which was not so long ago and also doesn't have high speed corners, which just shows that Ferrari only really got better since Korea/India/Abu Dhabi/Austin

Now when I thought about it: Yes, Alonso would be in the title fight with Lotus like he is with Ferrari. In the beginning of the season Kimi drove very carefully not to do anything stupid. He was adapting in F1 racing again and it was important to finish every lap of the races to get that confidence that he's had in the second half of the season. Especially in 2 car battles. It was quite good approach but he just missed the opportunity of being a theoretical title contender in the last races.

But this Piquet guy isn't thinking like a racing driver about other racers. That's what I understand from those comments that he has given.
He doesn't seem to have too much respect for other drivers. Except Alonso who's fan he seems to be. I have nothing against it. It is allowed to be a fan

It really is disrespectful to say that someone would have done it better in the same car. Especially when he couldn't make a bigger career in F1 himself. Not making too good impression. He should know that this is a sport where you just can't start the sentences with words "what if".

He may be completely right but he's not making it clear in the right way...

NO ONE would be a champ in Sauber. that car only got podiums due to nature of tyres/car and retarded tactic (tactic that qualifing out of Top 10 gave more benefits than from Top 10 due to Hard-Soft rather than Soft-Hard, where 1st tactic was superior to 2nd). I excluded Kobayashi podium

He does bring a good point about Alonso being in that car, who might have been in a championship winning position as well, though I actually think Raikkonenn is doing a stellar job already. And the Ferrari is a better car.

He does bring a good point about Alonso being in that car, who might have been in a championship winning position as well, though I actually think Raikkonenn is doing a stellar job already. And the Ferrari is a better car.

He is not right, he only has his words...he has no information how good Lotus or Sauber is and he never will, he will never have any info about any F1 car because he was a weak and did deliberately hit the wall for someone else to win a race, pathetic driver who ruined his own career in F1 and didn't have guts to say no!