i do like this program, the 5x5 is for building strangth (2.5-3 mins between sets and i think i read somewhere its not really good for hypertrophy), and when i go 3 times a week i actually up the weight pretty much every 2nd workout (recently ive been working for over 12 hours a day so only went 1-2 times a week) 0 but it seems that this way STR is the main goal and size is the bi-product, i want it the other way around.

anyway.im not sure that the bench press in A and CGBP + flys in B is the best way to encourage my chest to grow, i have a good base for chest (i think, its broad and big) but flat - and i want to HURT IT so trys to run away from my body and will grow out.

so - i was wondering i if i should maybe switch some things up, and maybe 5x5 isnt best for hypertrophy? should i do 3x12 or 10 or 8?

and maybe have 1 ex per day for "mid chest" and than A will have +1 upper chest and B will have +1 for lower chest - anyway - any help will be much appriciated.

you need volume. Keep the 5x5 for your bench if you want but do your accessory stuff like flyes with much higher reps, like 12-15. Also add an incline movement, dumbell, barbell or machine. Doesn't really matter which but get some inclines in there and do them for higher reps too.

Compared to BB bench presses, DB bench presses allow the chest muscles to move the arms towards the torso's midpoint with less assistance from the front delts and triceps.

BB bench presses are best for developing overall upper body pushing power, but many lifters training chest with BBs will find their delts and triceps developing more than their chests. For them, DBs are a better choice.

I'd alternate incline and flat bench every workout or do them both in one workout depending on your split. If you do them together, try alternating doing incline first and flat bench first.

And try doing sets of 10. I think they are better for hypertrophy. You can alternate workouts of 5 reps and workouts of 10 reps--the "five and dime" routine. That can work nicely. The workouts using sets of 5 may increase strength that can transfer to your sets of 10 which are better at building muscle. You could do 2 workouts of 10 reps for every workout of 5 reps.

As far as exercise selection--yes you can get slightly more engagement using DB over BB, but you can get more intensity (use heavier weights) using BB. There's no real right answer--it's more preference. You can do both. At some point the DBs get too large, heavy, and unwieldy to use very well. But you can keep piling weight on a bar.

The point here is that you can mix it up and keep it interesting. A few words of wisdom though:

1. Don't over do the volume. Volume is important for hypertrophy, but there is a point of diminishing returns where you're just wasting time and energy and even exposing yourself to injury. Find out where that line is. You might try 3 sets of ten for chest as a starting point. You don't have to destroy your chest in a workout. Stimulate it and let it rest and rebuild.

2. Don't over do the frequency. Working it every 4-5 days is plenty if you have some experience. If you're an absolute beginner, then you can maybe get away with every 2-3 days for a while. You can even work it just once a week and make gains. That works well if your recovery ability is sapped from other demands on your body (ie. work) or age or if you've reached your genetic potential and you are maintaining. No, you won't detrain in a week. When in doubt--rest.

3. Use good exercises. If you're debating DB vs. BB, then that's a good debate. If you're debating flies versus presses, then that's the wrong question. In other words, don't waste your time with small, isolation exercises. They just stretch your muscles under tension and cause a lot of soreness. That makes you feel like you had a good workout, but in reality it just makes you excessively sore and delays your next workout. I'd scrap them completely. If you insist on doing flies, then keep them to the minimum or do them every once in a while. But my advice is don't waste your time. If you can bench press 225 for 10 reps, then you'll have a developed chest just fine.

4. Realize your genetics. Some people just don't have a lot of existing fibers in their chest to develop. Don't fret if that's you. Make it tight, striated, lean, developed. Develop your delts, triceps, back, and get your body fat low. Nobody cares if your chest is big. Being in overall great shape is impressive and more useful.

3. Use good exercises. If you're debating DB vs. BB, then that's a good debate. If you're debating flies versus presses, then that's the wrong question. In other words, don't waste your time with small, isolation exercises. They just stretch your muscles under tension and cause a lot of soreness. That makes you feel like you had a good workout, but in reality it just makes you excessively sore and delays your next workout. I'd scrap them completely. If you insist on doing flies, then keep them to the minimum or do them every once in a while. But my advice is don't waste your time. If you can bench press 225 for 10 reps, then you'll have a developed chest just fine.

It's an old thread so I'm not really too sure why you're replying to it. In any case...

So very, very incorrect.

He feels his chest is not growing at the same rate as everything else, so why would you recommend dropping the exercises that specifically target his chest?

Take presses for example. If he is a delt dominant presser, adding more pressing will just build up his delts. Something like flyes will take the delt emphasis away, allowing his chest to catch up.

I'll never understand why people are so down on isolation movements. They are an important part of any routine. Your statement "They just stretch your muscles under tension and cause a lot of soreness. That makes you feel like you had a good workout, but in reality it just makes you excessively sore and delays your next workout" is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

So, I guess you fall into the insist on doing flies camp. Flies induce excessive soreness from the hyper-stretch on the bottom of the movement. Do they work chest? Yes, of course they engage the chest. They just lack the intensity of presses, make you unnecessarily sore, don't work the other pressing muscles well, aren't as functional as presses, lack the synergy you get from pressing, and do all that or not do all that while dipping into your recovery ability--so, I think they aren't a good choice--they're inefficient and less effective. So fly, fly, fly on if you like them. I don't.

I have nothing better to do tonight than to pick this post apart. Let's. Get. Detailed.

Drake Van Steed wrote:

So, I guess you fall into the insist on doing flies camp.

nope, but I think that they are a useful tool in certain circumstances.

Drake Van Steed wrote:

Flies induce excessive soreness from the hyper-stretch on the bottom of the movement.

same stretch you get doing dumbell presses. There's a shorter lever with dumbell presses but much higher loading. Works out about the same. And it's not a "hyper stretch," it's just a stretch.

Drake Van Steed wrote:

They just lack the intensity of presses, make you unnecessarily sore, don't work the other pressing muscles well

not sure where you're getting the unnecessarily sore thing from, sounds awfully subjective to me and a lot like you probably don't get much chest activation from presses, so flyes are causing soreness because they're actually working your chest for a change. I have done all sorts of flyes in my time and never had "unnecessary soreness." Soreness is much more a function of volume and eccentric work than any particular exercise. I'll admit they can be tough on the shoulder joints if you go too low, but there's not really a chest exercise that isn't tough on the shoulders. It is what it is.

As for them not working the other pressing muscles - that's the whole point!

Drake Van Steed wrote:

aren't as functional as presses

considering the function of the exercise in this context is to specifically build the chest, they may very well be MORE functional as they're less likely to shift the load to another muscle such as triceps or delts.

Drake Van Steed wrote:

lack the synergy you get from pressing, and do all that or not do all that while dipping into your recovery ability--so, I think they aren't a good choice--they're inefficient and less effective. So fly, fly, fly on if you like them. I don't.

I take it a lack of synergy means there's not more than one muscle working together? Well again, that's the whole point of adding flyes to a routine where your other muscles are developing faster than your chest. You don't WANT synergy, you want to train the chest completely independently from other muscles so it catches up. That goes for absolutely any lagging muscle you want to bring up. If your lats were lagging, would you add more pulldowns? No, of course you wouldn't because pulldowns'll train your arms and other parts of your upper back. You'd use something like straight arm pulldowns, which remove any "synergy" and allow you to concentrate all your effort onto the particular muscle you need to bring up.

And I really don't get what you're on about with how bad you think flyes are in terms of recovery. Which do you think is harder to recover from: bench presses or flyes? It's blatantly the bench press considering how tough it is on your joints, and how hard it is on your CNS through the heavy loading. I could do flyes 3x a week no problem, but a single bench session puts my chest out of action for a week. That's actually the main reason I don't bench anymore but that's another story for another day.

If you ARE having problems with flyes, then you are probably going way too heavy.

Here's someone who has missed the point of all the arguments we have had here about the place of isolation lifts. Several of us here frequently advise people against using them, but it's not because they are bad exercises (although it's taken some of us a while to sort this out in our own minds). It's because they aren't as useful for most lifters' purposes as compound exercises. But this is a great example of a place where they have a good use for this person's needs.

There is no reason why flyes (and if you're going to argue against them, spell them correctly) should cause any more soreness than any other lift, unless you do them infrequently, too heavy or a lot more volume than you are used to. And the amount of stretch is entirely within the lifter's control. If it is too much stretch for you, don't take them so low!

_________________Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan

...(and if you're going to argue against them, spell them correctly) ...

Singular can be spelt "fly" or "flye". The plural of each is "flies" or "flyes" respectively. Therefore both are acceptable, the same way "spelt" and "spelled" are acceptable everywhere but the US.

_________________Stu Ward_________________Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~HippocratesStrength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley_________________Thanks TimD

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