I really don't care about other vegans judging me because I've been over that nazi vegan police stuff for a long time now. (...) I don't know maybe I just feel attacked, like I do by most vegans

same here. and usually i find that those are "new" vegans who were still eating meat a year ago and generally i see them eating a hamburger about a year later. i find that most vegans i know only last about 2-5 years. a lot of them went from eating meat straight into being an extremely strict vegan and then they go right back into eating meat again.

i don't get that. i mean, if your convictions were strong enough to be vegan, how can that change over night?

i think the ones that are vegetarian first probably have an easier time of sticking with it.

but among those short term vegans is my friend, peaches. he used to tell everyone he was "more vegan" than i was (i didn't really care what he said, but whatever) because he was an extremely strict vegan. a week before he started saying this, he was feasting on porkchops, chicken, and hamburgers! he was vegan for about a year and a half. the last i heard he had started eating eggs again but still didn't eat meat, dairy, or honey. he seemed to be trying to decide if he even wanted to be vegetarian at all when i talked to him.

i've been a vegetarian for nineteen years and a vegan for eight. when i was a little kid i always had my guard up since i had to constantly defend myself and i would always rant about how others should be vegetarian. i got over that because i realized that it's a personal choice. i don't like it when meat eaters try to push their views on me so i respect that and i don't push my views on them, although i am available to answer questions if they've got them.

my friend was a lot like i was when i was little. he would rant about that to everyone, including other veg*ns (telling them they weren't doing it "well enough"). but then he dropped out of the game very quickly. in my opinion, my (almost) two decades of being vegetarian and my eight years of being vegan (although i was not as strict, as i would occasionally eat stuff that already had honey in it) accomplished a lot more than his year and a half of being an extremely strict vegan. i dunno, when he stopped being vegan it just made me sort of laugh to myself because of all of the crap he tried to give me over it.

2. You know so many vegans IRL that you can choose not to hang with them? I don't know any other vegans IRL. I've only met two other vegans, total.

haha, i know this isn't directed to me, but i just wanted to say that i live in seattle. there are TONS of vegans here!

even when i lived in oklahoma (cow country!) i knew a bunch by the time i left. when i first became vegan i didn't know that many veg*ns at all, but by the time i left i knew a bunch of vegans, vegetarians, and (mostly) people who used to be vegan or vegetarian.

I guess my problem with the definition of vegan being so fluid and broad is that, if we kept that up, sooner or later all the people who eat free range happy meat and whatnot would be calling themselves vegan, which would be a severe detriment to the movement. We have to make these distinctions; I think they are necessary to having a unified, coherent cause.

I usually am annoyed by "slippery slope" types of arguments, but I think this makes sense. I mean, that's why the term "vegan" was invented because vegetarian used to mean vegan before it somehow changed to include dairy and eggs. Totally makes sense ;)b

If one can say honey (bee secretion) consumption is not vegan, then one must have a similar outlook on cow maneur for organic farming and the one cell diatom which converts sunlight to energy, for example, oil.

That's a far stretch for a position. It's interesting that so many new people have joined in on this one. Is there another board that's sending them over? Maybe the National Honey Board wants to show us the error of our ways.

1. The honey I eat is local, free-range wildflower honey that is produced in a sustainable, humane way. I AM against the industrialized honey farms, because the bees are forced to produce honey in an environment that isn't conducive to their evolutionary needs. Therefore, I only buy local, organic, raw honey.

2. For me, I feel it is hypocritical on the part of the many vegans who eschew honey but are perfectly comfortable with smacking mosquitoes or stepping on bugs. If you take the time to save every bug that comes across your path, more power to you. But I don't have that kind of sympathy for mosquitoes or black flies intent on sucking my blood. Granted, I do take into consideration that bees are more advanced life forms, but the production and harvesting of organic honey is relatively humane. In fact, the bees often have better lives because they are protected and cared for by a responsible beekeeper.

3. I love the taste of honey! In oatmeal, on pancakes, toast, in granola, etc. etc. Plus, I am slightly uncomfortable with the high fructose content of agave nectar.

2. For me, I feel it is hypocritical on the part of the many vegans who eschew honey but are perfectly comfortable with smacking mosquitoes or stepping on bugs. If you take the time to save every bug that comes across your path, more power to you. But I don't have that kind of sympathy for mosquitoes or black flies intent on sucking my blood. Granted, I do take into consideration that bees are more advanced life forms, but the production and harvesting of organic honey is relatively humane. In fact, the bees often have better lives because they are protected and cared for by a responsible beekeeper.

1. I almost hit a bird today on my drive home from work. By this logic, it is hypocritical of me to avoid eating birds because there is a chance I might harm one in my day to day life.

2. This thread is almost a year old. ::)

3. I'm pretty sure AC is still in cahoots with the National Honey Board.

I don't think the mosquito-swatting analogy is apt. Yeah, both mosquitos and bees are insects, but mosquitos have a parasitic relationship with humans for part of their life cycle. Saying it's wrong to swat mosquitos is like saying it's wrong to treat your dog for fleas. Neither you or your dog may die from the parasite, but I think there's some line where, if your health/whatever is at risk because of an animal, it's ok to respond. That said, I actually don't swat mosquitos, and I avoid killing insects in general... but I do treat my kitties for fleas.

With bees, it's not as though they're coming in our homes, building their hives, drinking our beer, and then we take some of their honey just so that we're even. We either have to seek out this honey, or we have to farm the bees.

It's interesting that it seems like the people who are more ok with vegans eating honey are people who eat honey and those who aren't ok with it are vegan. Of course personal philosophy probably dictates whether or not the person eats honey, but might it go the other way too? Like, since someone eats honey they gotta defend it, and since someone's been without honey for years they're more comfortable with condemning it? For instance, I probably have sweatshop-made clothing. If there was a thread on that, maybe I'd be tempted to try to justify my sweatshop clothing with "but i'm a broke college student! I can only afford to shop at Target!" or with perhaps more philosophical statements, but I'd like to think I'm against sweatshop labor.Does any of this make sense, or am I just sleeepy?

With bees, it's not as though they're coming in our homes, building their hives, drinking our beer, and then we take some of their honey just so that we're even. We either have to seek out this honey, or we have to farm the bees.

For instance, I probably have sweatshop-made clothing. If there was a thread on that, maybe I'd be tempted to try to justify my sweatshop clothing with "but i'm a broke college student! I can only afford to shop at Target!" or with perhaps more philosophical statements, but I'd like to think I'm against sweatshop labor.Does any of this make sense, or am I just sleeepy?