"I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of all officers appointed over me"

I understand that this man felt duped by the Iraq War; however, one of the first things you learn in any branch is that higher you go, the more fucked up the viewpoint gets. Needs of the service overrode your vengeance crusade. Had you been in Afghanistan, some other unlucky SOB would have had your Iraqi **** sandwich instead.

Of course, it's easy for me to say. I was Navy in what was mostly peace time.

3/21/2013 1:15am,

goodlun

I came very close to joining the USAF under there TDSP program so that I can get a TS SDI clearance. While the school I was going to had the right Accreditation for the program on the undergraduate level the masters program did not so that shot that plan to hell.
Point being many people have many different reasons for joining.

3/21/2013 1:29am,

slamdunc

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodlun

I came very close to joining the USAF under there TDSP program so that I can get a TS SDI clearance.

What is the SDI suffix; I'm not familiar with that type of clearance. I held TS SCI (Sensitive Compartmented Information).

So basically the idea of the US as a force for good, a force for democracy and freedom has gone the way of the do do bird and passenger pigeon. Now it's OK that the Armed Forces are pretty much paid mercenaries for corporations. Yes, this is a big difference from my youth and it isn't just the draft. We were taught that the US was the land of the free and the home of the brave and the Armed Services were a reflection of that view. Of course all most all of my generation's fathers fought in WWII, they fought the good fight, against Nazis and torturing Japanese.

At the start of the Iraq War we had several threads and many of the military, notably Vargas, an Air Force officer, had that patriotic vision of an America that still stood for decency and democracy. While I personally had, through my experiences in Vietnam and learning of the slaughters in Central America and Iran/Contra and all that, had given up the beneficial view of America, many if not all the servicemen on Bullshido ascribed to the idea that America did good, that we were a force for the betterment of the world. It is very sad and very telling that the bullshit and lies of the last ten years have destroyed this this type of patriotism.

We were taught that the US was the land of the free and the home of the brave and the Armed Services were a reflection of that view. Of course all most all of my generation's fathers fought in WWII, they fought the good fight, against Nazis and torturing Japanese.

I was taught the same thing; we said our Pledge of Allegiance every morning before class and believed in the Stars and Stripes. My father was a WWII Marine, my brother a Vietnam era Sailor and my other brother also served (Cold War). Aside from the Revolutionary War, the rest were for some political or financial cause (this is merely my opinion).

Quote:

Originally Posted by patfromlogan

It is very sad and very telling that the bullshit and lies of the last ten years have destroyed this this type of patriotism.

The patriotism is still within us; war is always about politics in some form. I wouldn't have to believe in the cause I was fighting for if the President gave the order, I would just go. I'm not a mindless idiot by any means, but I don't question orders. I'm not necessarily a warrior, but I am a soldier and as such, I will obey those orders.

The wars in the middle-east were over oil and were political. Terrorists attacked and Bush used that as an excuse to go to war. We have plenty of oil here and just aren't tapping it. If we control the middle east and South America, we bleed them dry, manipulate the price of the oil and when their resources are spent, we are the only game in town.

The war in Vietnam was about politics. We can justify it by saying we were defending the freedom of an oppressed people, but when it comes down to it, it was political.

I personally am not a fan of the idea of the Armed Forces of America playing the role of Moral World Police, as that is a gross misuse of American lives. The Armed Forces of the United States should be used as an instrument to advance American Foreign Policy, as well as for home defense. In an ideal world, American Foreign Policy is pursuing peaceful coexistence with its allies, as well as working tirelessly to bring light to dark corners of the world.

Unfortunately, that is not always the case. The fact that we have leaders who often make less than honest foreign policy decisions does not mean that the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen of the United States Army are somehow mercenaries or dishonorable. It means that we are a Superpower with a lot of moving parts, and sometimes you take the good with the bad. Sometimes bad doesn't seem so bad at the time. Sometimes our leaders make decisions that, viewed through the lens of hindsight, appear to be pretty terrible. Lincoln allowed Grant and Sherman to rape and pillage the South. FDR arrested an enormous number of American Citizens. American Soldiers confiscated, stole, and destroyed tons of private property during WWII. Truman dropped The Bomb after the Japanese had already tried to surrender. The French convinced the US that getting involved in Vietnam was worth it in return for France's help achieving quick NATO membership for West Germany. Saddam Hussein miscalculated America's blood lust after 9/11; deciding it was less dangerous than an Iranian government empowered with the knowledge that Hussein had no "WMDs." So he purposely put up a front, and the U.S. Government overreacted, as governments reeling from terrorist attacks are wont to do. Ask a single one of these heads of state if they thought what they were doing was right at the time, and they would look at you as though you were an imbecile. No one would make decisions that terrible on a whim.

So I have to ask, when was this mythical period in American history when the Armed Forces were saints? When were members of our Armed Forces holy warriors for purity and light? What's wrong with Service Members being relatively normal human beings who decide they want to help out their country in situations of need, regardless of who created such situations?

If your concern is that the U.S. Government acts in ways that are contrary to the best interests of its citizens, then I would retort that the American voting populace failed the military, not the other way around. I'm Active Duty Military, and I voted a straight Libertarian ticket. My Presidential Candidate called for an immediate pull out from all war zones, and the removal of American troops from foreign soil. Who did you vote for?

3/23/2013 12:56am,

slamdunc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassius

The fact that we have leaders who often make less than honest foreign policy decisions does not mean that the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen of the United States Army are somehow mercenaries or dishonorable.

We just follow orders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassius

If your concern is that the U.S. Government acts in ways that are contrary to the best interests of its citizens, then I would retort that the American voting populace failed the military, not the other way around

Most of the active-duty and even retirees I know tend to vote conservatively, and it doesn't usually do much good.

Just a short reply; take a look at Against All Enemies: Inside America's War on Terror by Richard A. Clarke, former National Coordinator for Security, Infrastructure Protection, and Counter-terrorism and counter-terrorism czar for Clinton and Bush - he was a life long Republican and worked for Reagan, H W Bush, Clinton and Shrub. One sentence? Bush, Rummy and Cheney are egomaniac assholes who were bent on nailing Saddam and ignored Clarke and the CIA and anyone who didn't agree with their screwy ideas and kiss their rosy red rectums. Yes, call it whim or call it idiocy, they did it.

And 1st term Obama suckered me. Then he fired all his liberal econ people and hired bankers and lied about everything....