natural vs. roids in middle weights

I read all over how steroids or prohormones (both of which i know nothing) give a advantage to a body builder or powerlifter.
My question is if all things are equal a muscle is a muscle, right?
So a natural 160 pound powerlifter vs a chemically enhanced 160 pound powerlifter should make no difference, correct?
Same with a man competing in bodybuilding at 160, correct? 160 lbs vs 160 lbs , it should come down to who looks best

Seems to me that steroids should not come into play until you hit the top of the heavy weight class

I guess it could help some cut fat to get ripped
I guess I am asking what is the advantage of lower and middle classes using them?
Especially in powerlifting , 160 vs 160 pounds
can someone explain to me

they would help in alot of ways, faster recovery decreased catabolism... as far as powerlifting androgens like dht increse strength/explosive force. so even if both lifters weigh the same and have the same bf%... the enhanced lifter can lift more also chances are that the enhanced lifter will have a better body composition anyways. as far as bodybuilding steroids also alow a much greater glycogen uptake giving the muscles a fuller apearence. when cutting the decrease catabolism so a bodybuilder can lose fat faster without wasting muscle than a natural lifter hope that helps

I used to think the same way. You gotta do some more research on the endocrine system and how hormones affect your muscles. There's way
too much to think about to put it in one post, also I don't know everything lol. If you wanna look up specific hormones you can look at testosterone, HGH, Luteinizing Hormone (LH) for starters. I know there's many more but I'm no expert.

also another posibility is the the increased red blood cell count increses vascularity which gives a more muscular appearence and i dont know the exact science behind it but i would only imagine more red blood cells means more oxygen absorbtion which has to has some effect on strength and endurance. in addition to that steroids that decrease estrogen would give muscles a much harder apearence witch again would help in a bodybuilding contest

Bodybuilding Pharmacology: Roid Muscle Architecture
By: Jerry Brainium
Anabolic steroids increase muscle size and strength through various mechanisms, including an increase in muscle protein synthesis and a significant decrease in muscle catabolic processes. Psychological effects also play a role. The increased aggression often noted with steroid use fosters more intense, heavier training. One aspect of steroids not previously examined is how they affect the internal structure of muscles; that is, the way muscle fibers contract.

A group of researchers who had previously studied the effects of combining testosterone enanthate injections with weight training for 12 weeks recently published a new study.1 In the earlier study subjects received an injection of testosterone enanthate that was 3.5 milligrams per kilogram (2.2 pounds) of bodyweight. That amounts to 315 milligrams of testosterone weekly, a conservative amount for a typical bodybuilder. Another group got a placebo injection. As expected, the steroid group made considerably greater gains in muscle size and strength.

The new study, which also took place over 12 weeks, involved 10 of the same subjects who used the same amount of testosterone enanthate injections and engaged in weight training; another group got a placebo. The researchers focused on structural changes in the triceps muscles in the two groups, which were both training hard. Strength gains were measured by increases in one-rep-maximum poundages on the bench press.

Those taking the testosterone injections made significantly greater strength gains than those in the drug-free group. The steroid group also showed increased muscle pennation, which refers to the direction in which individual muscle fibers run between the origin and insertion points of a muscle. Muscle pennation determines the direction of muscular contraction, and the increased pennation in the steroid group increased muscle force through more efficient contractions. Those in the drug-free group did not experience that muscle pennation change, though changes they did show led to a finding of no significant difference in muscle thickness between the two groups, which would surprise many people.

The major discovery of the study was that even conservative doses of anabolic steroids appear to promote changes in a muscle's internal architecture, which results in greater muscle contractile force'and thus greater muscular strength'when combined with training.

so let me see if I understand
Roids make structural differences in the muscle as compared to the natural and these structural differences are perminate.

So If a person weigh in at 160 and took roids he could become stronger without actually gaining size? He could remain 160 and be stronger?
I always assumed a pound of muscle compared to a pound of muscle, is the same, just a pound of muscle.

also after puberty we dont produce any more muscle cells we are only able to enlarge and strengthen them with steroids cellular division can occur and increase the number of muscle cells. didnt do reasearch just heard this from a bio proffessor but i was at comunity college for a semester so idk how true it is lol

so let me see if I understand
Roids make structural differences in the muscle as compared to the natural and these structural differences are perminate.

So If a person weigh in at 160 and took roids he could become stronger without actually gaining size? He could remain 160 and be stronger?
I always assumed a pound of muscle compared to a pound of muscle, is the same, just a pound of muscle.

The statement; "The steroid group also showed increased muscle pennation, which refers to the direction in which individual muscle fibers run between the origin and insertion points of a muscle. Muscle pennation determines the direction of muscular contraction, and the increased pennation in the steroid group increased muscle force through more efficient contractions." and "The major discovery of the study was that even conservative doses of anabolic steroids appear to promote changes in a muscle's internal architecture, which results in greater muscle contractile force and thus greater muscular strength when combined with training." make no inference that they are permanent.

Abundant anecdotal evidence suggest that this is a transient condition.

I goes without dispute that if I a guy puts on 20lbs of muscle from steroid use his baseline strength will be increased - but that is not what you are asking.

so let me see if I understand
Roids make structural differences in the muscle as compared to the natural and these structural differences are perminate.

So If a person weigh in at 160 and took roids he could become stronger without actually gaining size? He could remain 160 and be stronger?
I always assumed a pound of muscle compared to a pound of muscle, is the same, just a pound of muscle.

Nah if that were true anyone who is 5'10 180 pounds with 10% bf would all have the same lift numbers. From personal experience after a week of SD my weight or bf might not change much at all but my bench will prob increase 10-15 pounds, maybe its placebo but i don't think so

so let me see if I understand
Roids make structural differences in the muscle as compared to the natural and these structural differences are perminate.

So If a person weigh in at 160 and took roids he could become stronger without actually gaining size? He could remain 160 and be stronger?
I always assumed a pound of muscle compared to a pound of muscle, is the same, just a pound of muscle.

this is true, but the aas powerlifter in a 165lb class would be more stronger, holding more muscle mass with a lower bodyfat percentage. The natural lifter would not potentially be able to hold the same ratio of muscle/fat. In addition (im not sure if this is totally correct) if the enhanced lifter depleted his muscles of glycogen and water he could potentially lose more water/glycogen weight than a natural lifter who did not hold as much muscle mass

The statement; "The steroid group also showed increased muscle pennation, which refers to the direction in which individual muscle fibers run between the origin and insertion points of a muscle. Muscle pennation determines the direction of muscular contraction, and the increased pennation in the steroid group increased muscle force through more efficient contractions." and "The major discovery of the study was that even conservative doses of anabolic steroids appear to promote changes in a muscle's internal architecture, which results in greater muscle contractile force and thus greater muscular strength when combined with training." make no inference that they are permanent.

Abundant anecdotal evidence suggest that this is a transient condition.

I goes without dispute that if I a guy puts on 20lbs of muscle from steroid use his baseline strength will be increased - but that is not what you are asking.

your right no where did it state permanent, this was my assumption. I assumed structural difference would be permanent. My bad

Your right I was not asking about a man adding 20 pounds ....I was refering to 2 men at 160, one natural, one is chemically enhanced

So then it would seem that a enhanced female powerlifter vs a male natural , within same weight class .... the woman should be stronger?...i have seen women that i doubt i could compete with natural....some of these women juice the words juice but still these woman get no where close to the strength and size abilities of some of these men
Sorry if i appear stupid but it is a cool topic, at lewst i think so

Just thinking....men take chemicals and it shuts down their hormones and the have to do pct to restart....so shouldnt that make men and women equal?.... a woman therefore should be able to obtain the size and strength of the top males... if both are enhanced then both would be in a shut down situation and only supported by chemicals...... i know i am missing something

Just thinking....men take chemicals and it shuts down their hormones and the have to do pct to restart....so shouldnt that make men and women equal?.... a woman therefore should be able to obtain the size and strength of the top males... if both are enhanced then both would be in a shut down situation and only supported by chemicals...... i know i am missing something

Women have much less test naturally than men. I've read that they only have 5-10% the amount of testosterone than men naturally. So even with steroids their test levels aren't near the amount men have.

Women have much less test naturally than men. I've read that they only have 5-10% the amount of testosterone than men naturally. So even with steroids their test levels aren't near the amount men have.

Of course
But when both are on the juice, then both would have their natural supply shut down.
Seems to me that both would make the same gains until the end of cycle or similar as they are 2not different people but hormones should not be a factor until pct ......
I know i am wrpretty........it pretty clear i am wrong when you just compare them in real life
I just was wondering how and / or why
The mysteries of life amaze
I also know i have drifted off my original topic, forgive me

Of course
But when both are on the juice, then both would have their natural supply shut down.
Seems to me that both would make the same gains until the end of cycle or similar as they are 2not different people but hormones should not be a factor until pct ......
I know i am wrpretty........it pretty clear i am wrong when you just compare them in real life
I just was wondering how and / or why
The mysteries of life amaze
I also know i have drifted off my original topic, forgive me

Something to take into account is that you don't just suddenly shut down completely. In fact in a 4-6 week cycle your natural test production probably won't completely stop, though it may slow significantly. In a longer cycle it can, and I'm sure it also depends on the strength of the compound. With less test in their system naturally though natural production for a woman probably stops quicker than a man.

Something to take into account is that you don't just suddenly shut down completely. In fact in a 4-6 week cycle your natural test production probably won't completely stop, though it may slow significantly. In a longer cycle it can, and I'm sure it also depends on the strength of the compound. With less test in their system naturally though natural production for a woman probably stops quicker than a man.

acually tests production never FULLY shut down..but yea men will always have more test than women especially men bodybuilders that are taking supraphysiological doses of test

Of course
But when both are on the juice, then both would have their natural supply shut down.
Seems to me that both would make the same gains until the end of cycle or similar as they are 2not different people but hormones should not be a factor until pct ......
I know i am wrpretty........it pretty clear i am wrong when you just compare them in real life
I just was wondering how and / or why
The mysteries of life amaze
I also know i have drifted off my original topic, forgive me

Test or no test women are not genetically predisposed to be as muscular as men. Genetics has as much to do with building muscle as roids ever will. That topic seems to have missed this thread completely..

As for powerlifting 160lbs natty will not compare much to 160lbs steroid user if they both have similar genetics and lifting history. Like others mentioned muscle fiber contractility is increased when using gear. Thats why people gain so much strength before the weight comes on.

Bodybuilders will benefit from gear for so many reasons. Men carry less bodyfat than women(hard to tell with all the fatty in america) because of test/estrogen ratios. There have been plenty of medical studies that link taking high dose test/anavar as being fat shedding. You also hold onto more muscle cutting. The benefits are far outway any legal compounds, what a joke they are. Ive wasted a lot of money like most have. So a 160 juicer will come in looking more shredded, harder and less BF% if they are eating/training right.

Ive ran some prohormones and I never hold onto much of the gains. I think there too short of a cycle to put on muscle to keep. As far as longer injectables you really hold the gains a lot better. But research more for yourself. Thats the only way you ll find out

Something to take into account is that you don't just suddenly shut down completely. In fact in a 4-6 week cycle your natural test production probably won't completely stop, though it may slow significantly. In a longer cycle it can, and I'm sure it also depends on the strength of the compound. With less test in their system naturally though natural production for a woman probably stops quicker than a man.

Hmmm...... this i did not know. I assumed your system to be shut down and that was the purpose of pct. I guess pct isnt to restart and completely shut down system but rather to bring a slowed system back up.....and maybe to control estrogen ....hell i have no idea... i just find the topics amazing