Testimony Of Dr. Renatus Hartogs

The testimony of Dr. Renatus Hartogs was taken at 5:20 p.m., on April 16, 1964,
at 7 East 86th Street, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.

Renatus Hartogs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:

Mr. LIEBELER.
My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the
President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.
Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the
Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order
No. 1130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
The Commission has also adopted certain rules of procedure governing the taking
of testimony of witnesses which provide, among other things, that each witness
should receive a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I
have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules governing the taking of
testimony. The Commission will provide you with copies of these documents.
The rules concerning the taking of testimony provide generally that a witness
may have counsel if he wishes. He is entitled to 3 days' notice, which I do not
believe you had, but every witness is also entitled to waive that notice. I
presume that you will waive the notice since we are here.
Dr. HARTOGS.
That's right, sure, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
We want to inquire of you concerning the contact which the Commission
understands you had with Lee Harvey Oswald some time in 1953 or 1954.
Would you state your full name for the record, please.
Dr. HARTOGS.
Renatus Hartogs.
Mr. LIEBELER.
What is your address?
Dr. HARTOGS.
7 East 86th.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Where were you born and when?
Dr. HARTOGS.
In Mainz, M-a-i-n-z, Germany, January 22, 1909.
Mr. LIEBELER.
When did you come to the United States, Doctor?
Dr. HARTOGS.
On December 4, 1940.
Mr. LIEBELER.
You received your education in Germany, is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS.
In Germany, in Belgium. I have a Ph.D. from the University of
Frankfurt-am-Main, which is Germany, and I have a medical degree from the
University of Brussels Medical School, and then I came to the United States and
I studied medicine again to fulfill the requirements of the New York State
Education Department, and I have a medical degree from the University of
Montreal Medical School. Then I have an M.A. from New York University, and
that's it.
Mr. LIEBELER.
In what field is that?
Dr. HARTOGS.
In clinical psychopathology.
Mr. LIEBELER.
And you are----
Dr. HARTOGS.
I am a Ph. D. in clinical psychology and an M.D.
Mr. LIEBELER.
You are admitted to the practice of medicine in the State of New York, is
that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS.
In the State of New York.
Mr. LIEBELER.
And you have taken the examination for the practice of medicine?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
And you are admitted to practice medicine in the State?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
You are regularly engaged, are you not, in the practice of medicine as a
psychiatrist?
Dr. HARTOGS.
As a psychiatrist exclusively, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
How long have you been practicing here in the United States as a
psychiatrist?
Dr. HARTOGS.
In the States since 1949.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Did you practice medicine in Germany?
Dr. HARTOGS.
In Belgium.
Mr. LIEBELER.
How long did you practice in Belgium?
Dr. HARTOGS.
3 years.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Was that as a psychiatrist or in the general practice of medicine?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No, psychologist.
Mr. LIEBELER.
You are also the chief psychiatrist for the Youth House of New York City, is
that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS.
That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER.
How long have you held that position?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Since 1951.
Mr. LIEBELER.
What kind of duties do you perform as the chief psychiatrist at the Youth
House? Tell us generally about what they are.
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes, that's right. I examine all the children which have been remanded to
Youth House on order of the court for the purpose of psychiatric examination, so
not all children who are at Youth House are psychiatrically examined. There is
only a specific quantity, number. As these children are psychiatrically examined
by me and my staff, I submit my report to the court with recommendations and
diagnosis, and it is up to the court to follow the recommendations or not.
I at the same time teach the staff. I give workshops in the psychiatric aspects
of social work. I give seminars in which we discuss very interesting cases which
have come up and to which the professional public of New York City is
invited.
So, for instance, we gave such a seminar on Oswald. That is the reason why I
vaguely remember him.
Mr. LIEBELER.
You were also, as you have testified, the chief Psychiatrist for the Youth
House in 1953.
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Were your duties in connection with that job pretty much the same in 1953 as
they are now?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
How large a staff did you have in 1953, approximately?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Approximately I would say 300.
Mr. LIEBELER.
A staff?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes, staff, because we have three shifts, you see. We have about two staff
members for every child.
Mr. LIEBELER.
I see. I thought you testified previously that there were other
psychiatrists.
Dr. HARTOGS.
Oh, my staff?
Mr. LIEBELER.
Yes, on your staff, not at the Youth House, but on your staff.
Dr. HARTOGS.
Oh I thought----on my staff we have three psychiatrists now.
Mr. LIEBELER.
About how many did you have in 1953?
Dr. HARTOGS.
In 1953 we had two, two or three. It changed continuously. Sometimes we had
even four.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Do you remember the names of the other psychiatrists who were on the staff
at the time Oswald was in the Youth House?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No, no. They are continuously changing. Sometimes they were just for a few
weeks there, but I have remained on the staff continuously.
Mr. LIEBELER.
The Youth House is an institution of the city of New York, is that correct,
or is it supported by voluntary contributions? Is it a private institution or is
it an adjunct of the city of New York?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Right now it is part of the probation department of the city of New York,
under the jurisdiction of the probation department. Previously it was a private
institution with a private board. Then later on the city of New York took over
as far as the administration and the payment of the salaries is concerned, but
the private board was maintained. So today the private board still exist, but
the probation department of the city of New York has the jurisdiction over Youth
House.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Does the city of New York support it financially?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes, the city of New York pays for it.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Was that true, do you know, offhand, in 1953, or was it still a private
organization at that time?
Dr. HARTOGS.
At that time it was a private organization, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
You are a citizen of the United States, are you not?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes, since 1945.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Would you outline for us in general terms what the procedure is with respect
to a boy who is remanded to the Youth House for psychiatric observation. He is
ordered by the court to go to the Youth House; he goes to the Youth House.
Dr. HARTOGS.
He goes to the Youth House, that's right.
Mr. LIEBELER.
What generally happens to him then?
Dr. HARTOGS.
When he is in Youth House he is given a preliminary screening as to what
kind of a person he is, through human figure drawings. That is a special test
that is given.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Who administers that, social workers on the staff?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Social workers, and the psychologists, they do that, a preliminary
screening, because if we have very disturbed children right away from the
beginning we--I see them right away on an emergency basis and send them out
because we cannot keep too disturbed children in Youth House. We send them then
to a mental hospital. So then this child goes into an intake domitory where he
is dressed, acquainted with the techniques of adjustment in Youth House, the
Youth House philosophy. Then he is assigned to one of the dormitories, and then
he is sent to school. We have our own school, P.S. 613. We have our own
workshops for the children, recreation department. We have group service. We
have our own hospital where the child is checked as to his physical health.
So the child is slowly but surely introduced in all these various
departments.
Then the social worker has interviews with this child and with the parents of
the child, who are invited.
Then the school authorities prepare a report for me so that when I see the child
I have in front of me the probation officer's report, the social worker's
report on his contact with the child and the parents, I have the report of group
service or household, as it is called, I have the report of the medical
department, and I have the report of the recreation department, and I have also
the report of the psychologist.
And then I see the child and examine the child, and then I incorporate in my
report all these, my own findings with the findings of the Youth House
staff.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Can you tell us approximately in 1953 how much of your time you devoted to
the examination of children in Youth House?
Dr. HARTOGS.
30 hours per week.
Mr. LIEBELER.
30 hours a week. And about how many children would you see during the period
of time in a week, average week?
Dr. HARTOGS.
During that, 10 or 12.
Mr. LIEBELER.
So that you would spend somewhere between 2 and 3 hours with each child, is
that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Is that still true?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No, I mean not with the child itself. The child is seen for about half an
hour to an hour.
Mr. LIEBELER.
By you?
Dr. HARTOGS.
By me, but then I have also to study the record which takes half an hour,
and then it takes about an hour to dictate, so that counts about 2 hours.
Mr. LIEBELER.
In your capacity as chief psychiatrist for the Youth House did you have
occasion at any time to interview Lee Harvey Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Would you tell us when that was and all that you can remember about that
interview in your own words.
Dr. HARTOGS.
That is tough. I remember that--actually I reconstructed this from what I
remembered from the seminar. We gave a seminar on this boy in which we discussed
him, because he came to us on a charge of truancy from school, and yet when I
examined him, I found him to have definite traits of dangerousness. In other
words, this child had a potential for explosive, aggressive, assaultive acting
out which was rather unusual to find in a child who was sent to Youth House on
such a mild charge as truancy from school.

This is the reason why I remember this particular child, and that is the reason
why we discussed him in the seminar.
I found him to be a medium-sized, slender, curlyhaired youngster, pale-faced,
who was not very talkative, he was not spontaneous. He had to be prompted.
He was polite. He answered in a somewhat monotonous fashion. His sentences were
well structured. He was in full contact with reality.
Mr. LIEBELER.
He was?
Dr. HARTOGS.
He was in full contact with reality. I found his reasoning to be intensely
self-centered, his judgment also centering around his own needs, and the way he
looked at life and his relationships with people. This was mostly in the
foreground. So this is what I remember actually.
Mr. LIEBELER.
You say that you have reconstructed your recollection of your interview with
Lee Oswald by thinking of the seminar that you gave; is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS.
The seminar; that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Do you have any independent recollection of the interview with Lee Oswald
itself?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Only from remembering the seminar, what kind of a boy he was and what I said
at that time, I was able to reconstruct the picture of the boy as I just
described it; yes. That is how I proceeded.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Tell us about the seminar, Doctor. How did it come that you gave this
seminar on Oswald, to whom was it given, what was the general subject matter of
the seminar?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes; every Monday afternoon, at 1:30 until 3 o'clock, the professional Youth
House staff gets together in order to discuss an interesting or unusual child.
At that time we selected Oswald because of the reason which I indicated, the
discrepancy between the charge and the seriousness of his personality
disturbance, and the seminar was opened by the Youth House director; then the
social worker talked about the development, background and early history of the
child; then the Youth House recreation department and household talked, and then
the school department gave a report; then the Psychologist reported on his
findings, and then I acquainted the people who were present with the findings of
the psychiatrist and recommendations which I made to the court.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Whose suggestion was it that Oswald be used as a subject matter for the
seminar?
Dr. HARTOGS.
I believe it was mine, because I was the one to select these children.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Was there any report of the proceedings of the seminar prepared?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No; it is all spontaneous.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Just a spontaneous, informal sort of thing?
Dr. HARTOGS.
That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER.
No one made any memorandum of what occurred at that time?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Do you have any records relating to the seminar?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No; there are never any records, never anything written down; it is purely
informal.
Mr. LIEBELER.
The only writings that would have been at the seminar would have been the
reports that had been previously prepared by you and by the other members of the
Youth House staff; is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Right.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Do you recall what recommendation you made to the court in respect of
Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS.
If I can recall correctly, I recommended that this youngster should be
committed to an institution.
Mr. LIEBELER.
What type of institution, do you recall?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No; that I don't recall. No.
Mr. LIEBELER.
But you are quite clear in your recollection that you recommended that he be
institutionalized immediately because of the personality pattern disturbance;
is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes; that is right. That I remember; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
How long did Oswald stay at the Youth House, do you know?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Not exactly. Not exactly. Anything from 4 to 8 weeks, that is the average
stay.
Mr. LIEBELER.
The Youth House is a place the basic function of which is observation of
children in a controlled environment; would you say?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Controlled environment for the purpose of psychiatric observation or for the
purpose of detention pending court appearance, or custodial care of the child
pending his commitment, I mean his actual transfer to a child-caring or
custodial institution such as a training school. These are the three
purposes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
The Youth House is not the kind of place where a boy would be kept
indefinitely after he had been committed, or something like that?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No, the average is about 2 to 3 months; I mean 3 months is maximum.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Can you recall what kind of institution you recommended that Oswald be
committed to?
Dr. HARTOGS.
I never make a recommendation as to the name, the specific institution. This
is a prerogative of the court.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Do you make a recommendation as to the type of institution to which you
recommend a child?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes; I do that, either a mental hospital or training school or residential
treatment center, but I do not recall in this case what I recommended.
Mr. LIEBELER.
But you do recall quite clearly that you did recommend, because of this
boy's personality pattern, disturbance?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes; that he should not be placed in the community.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Or placed on probation?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes; that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Do you recall being interviewed on this question by the FBI?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Do you remember approximately when they interviewed you?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No; I don't know the date.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Do you remember that you told them the same thing, that is, that you
recommended institutionalizing Oswald as a result of his psychiatric examination
which indicated that he was potentially dangerous?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Would you tell us how you first became aware, after the assassination, that
Lee Oswald was a child with whom you had had previous contact?
Dr. HARTOGS.
The first time was, I read it in the newspaper, Justice Kelley, you know,
Florence Kelley, made a statement to the press that Oswald had been in the Youth
House, and she revealed details of the psychiatric report which immediately
made me aware of the fact that I was the one to examine the child, because this
was my wording.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Do you remember the wording?
Dr. HARTOGS.
For instance, incipient schizophrenia, I think she used; potentially
dangerous is something which I use. These are some of the expressions.
Mr. LIEBELER.
These expressions are peculiar to your particular type of work?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
And not generally used by others?
Dr. HARTOGS.
And by me generally in dealing with children.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Did you keep the newspaper clipping by any chance that indicated this?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER.
What did you do after you learned or became aware that Oswald was a child
with whom you had had contact?
Dr. HARTOGS.
I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything, but the New York Times sent a
reporter, and he questioned me on whether I was the one to examine this child,
because they read it, and I said that I did not know for sure, but it is
possible.
And what happened then? Then very soon the FBI came in here and said, "You are
the doctor who examined Oswald," and from then on I know for sure that it was
me, because they must have read a report.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Now, up until the time that the FBI came and said that you were the doctor
who interviewed Oswald, did you still have some doubt in your mind as to whether
you had actually interviewed the boy?
Dr. HARTOGS.
I was not convinced, I was not sure, until I then reconstructed everything
in my mind.
Mr. LIEBELER.
As you have indicated, by recalling ----
Dr. HARTOGS.
That is right, then I recalled everything.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Did you make any statement to television people in connection with this at
all?
Dr. HARTOGS.
About Oswald?
Mr. LIEBELER.
Yes.
Dr. HARTOGS.
No; on the day after President Kennedy died, the television people asked me
to make a statement on television in general about why somebody might kill the
President. I did not mention any name. I did not refer to any individual. I just
made some general psychiatric remarks as to what kind of a person would kill
the President.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Do you recall approximately what you said?
Dr. HARTOGS.
That a person who would commit such an act has been very likely a mentally
disturbed person, who has a personal grudge against persons in authority, and
very likely is a person who in his search to overcome his own insignificance and
helplessness will try to commit an act which will make others frightened, which
will shatter the world, which will make other people insecure, as if he wanted
to discharge his own insecurity through his own act, something like that in
general terms.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Was it indicated by you at that time, or was it indicated on the television
broadcast that you were the psychiatrist who had examined Lee Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER.
It was not?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No, no. They didn't know. They called me because they call me very often to
give some psychiatric explanations of murderers or something like that. They did
not know, and I did not know for sure.
Mr. LIEBELER.
At that time neither one of you were ----
Dr. HARTOGS.
And they selected me. I mean it was a fantastic thing.
Mr. LIEBELER.
It was purely coincidence?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Coincidence that they selected me.
Mr. LIEBELER.
So you made no reference at that time to the examination which you had made
of Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS.
None at all. I didn't know.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Dr. Hartogs, do you have in your possession a copy of the report which you
made at the time you examined Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Have you had any opportunity to examine a copy of that report since the
assassination?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No.
Mr. LIEBELER.
So the recollection that you have given us as regards your diagnosis and
your recommendations is strictly based on your own independent recollection,
plus the reconstruction of your interview with Oswald from the seminar that you
recall having given?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Right.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Do you remember anything else that particularly impressed you about Oswald?
The FBI report indicates that you were greatly impressed by the boy, who was
only 13 1/2 years old at the time, because he had extremely cold, steely eyes.
Do you remember telling that to the agents?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes, yes; that he was not emotional at all; he was in control of his
emotions. He showed a cold, detached outer attitude. He talked about his
situation, about himself in a, what should I say, nonparticipating fashion. I
mean there was nothing emotional, affective about him. and this impressed me.
That was the only thing which I remembered; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Now, you recall also that Oswald was a slender and pale-faced boy?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Can you remember what particular thing it was about Oswald that made you
conclude that he had this severe personality disturbance? What led you to this
diagnosis?
Dr. HARTOGS.
It was his suspiciousness against adults, as far as I recall, his exquisite
sensitivity in dealing with others, their opinions on his behalf. That is as far
as I recall it.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Did you form an opinion as to his intellectual ability, his mental
endowment?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes; but that I don't recall for sure. It was at least average at that
time.
Mr. LIEBELER.
I want to mark "Exhibit 1" on the examination of Dr. Renatus Hartogs, April
16, 1964, in New York, a photostatic copy of a document entitled "Youth House
Psychiatrist's Report," indicating a report on case No. 26996; date of
admission, April 16, 1953, exactly 11 years ago; date of examination, May 1,
1953, with regard to a boy by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. I have initialed a
copy of this report for identification purposes, Doctor. Would you initial it
here next to my initials.

Mr. LIEBELER.
Would you read the report and tell us if that is the report that you
prepared at that time?
Dr. HARTOGS.
That is right, that is it. Interesting.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Doctor, is your recollection refreshed after looking at the report that you
made at that time?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes, yes; that is the diagnosis, "personality pattern disturbance with
schizoid features and passive aggressive tendencies." Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
On page 1, at the very beginning of the report, you wrote at that time, did
you not, "This 13-year-old, well- built, well-nourished boy was remanded to
Youth House for the first time on charge of truancy."
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
On the last page of the report there is a section entitled "Summary for
Probation Officer's Report," is there not?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
And you wrote there, about two or three sentences down, did you not, "We
arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should be placed on probation
under the condition that he seek help and guidance through contact with a child
guidance clinic, where he should be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist
who could substitute, to a certain degree at least, for the lack of father
figure. At the same time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic
guidance through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not work out
favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan on an outpatient
basis, removal from the home and placement could be resorted to at a later date,
but it is our definite impression that treatment on probation should be tried
out before the stricter and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach
is applied to the case of this boy?"
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes. It contradicts my recollection.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Yes. As you now read your report--and it is perfectly understandable that it
is something that might not be remembered 11 years after the event; I have no
recollection of what I was doing 11 years ago.
Dr. HARTOGS.
I did not know that I made this ambiguous recommendation.
Mr. LIEBELER.
As you read this report and reflect on this report and on the boy, Oswald,
as he is revealed through it, do you think that possibly it may have been
somebody else that was involved in the seminar or are you convinced that it was
Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No; that was Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER.
That was Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
It would not appear from this report that you found any indication in the
character of Lee Oswald at that time that would indicate this possible violent
outburst, is there?
Dr. HARTOGS.
I didn't mention it in the report, and I wouldn't recall it now.
Mr. LIEBELER.
If you would have found it, you would have mentioned it in the report?
Dr. HARTOGS.
I would have mentioned it; yes. I just implied it with the diagnosis of
passive-aggressive. It means that we are dealing here with a youngster who was
hiding behind a seemingly passive, detached facade aggression hostility. I mean
this is what I thought was quite clear. I did not say that he had assaultive or
homicidal potential.
Mr. LIEBELER.
And in fact, as we read through the report, there is no mention of the words
"incipient schizophrenic" or "potentially dangerous" in the report.
Dr. HARTOGS.
No; I don't know where she has it from, but these are my words. I use it in
other reports, but here it is not.
Mr. LIEBELER.
"Passive-aggressive tendencies" are fairly common in occurrence, are they
not amongst people?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No; it is not so common. It is the least common of the three personality
traits. It is either a passive-dependent child or an aggressive child, and there
is a passive-aggressive child. The passive-aggressive one is the least
common.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Would you describe for us briefly what the passive-aggressive tendencies
are, how do they manifest themselves, what do they indicate?
Dr. HARTOGS.
They indicate a passive retiring surface facade, under which the child hides
considerable hostility of various degrees.
Mr. LIEBELER.
It would indicate to some extent a hiding of hostile tendencies toward
others?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes. But usually in a passive-aggressive individual the aggressiveness can
be triggered off and provoked in stress situations or if he nourishes his hate
and his hostility for considerable length of time so that the passive surface
facade all of a sudden explodes, this can happen. I said here that his fantasy
life turned around the topics of omnipotence and power. He said also that "I
dislike everybody," which is quite interesting, I think, also pertinent.
Mr. LIEBELER.
You indicated that his mother was interviewed by the Youth House social
worker and is described as such- and-such. That would indicate, would it not, to
you that you personally did not see the mother?
Dr. HARTOGS.
That is right. I did not see the mother personally, but the information I
have from the Youth House social worker's report.
Mr. LIEBELER.
You indicated in the second sentence of the summary for the probation
officer's report, "No finding of neurological impairment or psychotic mental
changes could be made," did you not?
Dr. HARTOGS.
That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER.
What do you mean when you say that "No finding of psychotic mental changes
could be made"?
Dr. HARTOGS.
This child was not suffering from delusions and hallucinations.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Would you couple that with the concept of neurological impairment which
indicated no brain damage or anything of that sort which would cause
hallucinations or disturbance of the personality?
Dr. HARTOGS.
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER.
Do you remember the circumstances of Oswald's home environment here in New
York at the time he came?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No.
Mr. LIEBELER.
You have no recollection of that. If I were to tell you now that this boy
came to New York with his mother, his father having died before he was born, to
live with one of his older brothers, and that they lived with the brother here in Manhattan on 92d Street for a short time, after which friction developed, and
they then moved to the Bronx, the mother worked all day, to support the child,
in a department store here in New York or in Brooklyn, and the boy apparently
found difficulty in his relations with others at school because he dressed
differently, being from Texas, they lived apparently on the Grand Concourse,
which has been described to us at that time as being a generally middle-class
Jewish neighborhood, in which the boys did not dress in levis or quite so
casually as Oswald did; that he was given some difficulty because of the fact
that he did not speak the way the people did in New York, he spoke with a
southern Texas accent and did not understand the patois of the city; assuming
that those thin
gs were true, would that be a partial explanation, do you think, of the way that
he reacted to you during the interview as reflected in your report?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No; I would not say. This was not the personality disturbance which was the
result of the situation of changes or conditioning; this was more deeper going.
A personality pattern disturbance is a disturbance which has been existing since
early childhood and has continued to exist through the individual's life. It is
not the result of recent conditioning.
Mr. LIEBELER.
After reading your report, are you able to form an opinion or did you form
an opinion at that time of what might have caused this particular personality
pattern disturbance in this boy?
Dr. HARTOGS.
I mentioned it, I think, in the report, the lack of a father figure, the
lack of a real family life, neglect by self- involved mother. Yes; I think these
are the three factors.
Mr. LIEBELER.
After reviewing the report, do you have any other remarks that you think
would be helpful to us in trying to understand what motivated this boy, assuming
that he was the assassin of the President?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No.
Mr. LIEBELER.
That you haven't already talked about?
Dr. HARTOGS.
No.
Mr. LIEBELER.
I will ask the reporter to set forth the text of the report at the end of
the deposition. I want to thank you very much for giving us the time that you
have, and on behalf of the Commission we want to tell you that we appreciate it
very much. Thanks very much, Doctor.
Dr. HARTOGS.
Okay.

"This 13 year old, well-built, well-nourished boy was remanded to Youth House
for the first time on charge of truancy from school and of being beyond the
control of his mother as far as school attendance is concerned. This is his
first contact with the law.
"He is--tense, withdrawn and evasive boy who dislikes intensely talking about
himself and his feelings. He likes the give the impression that he doesn't care
about others and rather likes to keep himself so that he is not bothered and
does not have to make the effort of communicating. It was difficult to penetrate
the emotional wall behind which this boy hides--and he provided us with
sufficient clues, permitting us to see intense anxiety, shyness, feelings of
awkwardness and insecurity as the main reasons for his withdrawal tendencies and
solitary habits. Lee told us: 'I don't want a friend and I don't like to talk
to people.' He describes himself as stubborn and according to his own saying
likes to say 'no.' Strongly resistive and negativistic features were thus
noticed--but psychotic mental content was denied and no indication of psychotic
mental changes was arrived at.
"Lee is a youngster with superior mental endowment functioning presently on the
bright normal range of mental efficiency. His abstract thinking capacity and his
vocabulary are well developed. No retardation in school subjects could be found
in spite of his truancy from school. Lee limits his interests to reading
magazines and looking at the television all day long. He dislikes to play with
others or to face the learning situation in school. On the other hand he claims
that he is 'very poor' in all school subjects and would need remedial help. The
discrepancy between the claims and his actual attainment level show the low
degree of self-evaluation and self-esteem at which this boy has arrived
presently, mainly due to feelings of general inadequacy and emotional
discouragement.
"Lee is the product of a broken home--as his father died before he was born. Two
older brothers are presently in the United States Army--while the mother
supports herself and Lee as an insurance broker. This occupation makes it
impossible for her to provide adequate supervision of Lee and to make him attend
school regularly. Lee is intensely dissatisfied with his present way of living,
but feels that the only way in which he can avoid feeling too unhappy is to
deny to himself competition with other children or expressing his needs and
wants. Lee claims that he can get very angry at his mother and occasionally has
hit her, particularly when she returns home without having bought food for
supper. On such occasions she leaves it to Lee to prepare some food with what he
can find in the kitchen. He feels that his mother rejects him and really has
never cared very much for him. He expressed the similar feeling with regard to
his brothers who live pretty much on their own without showing any brotherly
interest in hi
m. Lee has vivid fantasy life, turning around the topics of omnipotence and
power, through which he tries to compensate for his present shortcomings and
frustrations. He did not enjoy being together with other children and when we
asked him whether he prefers the company of boys to the one of girls--he
answered--'I dislike everybody.' His occupational goal is to join the Army. His
mother was interviewed by the Youth House social worker and is described by her
as a 'defensive, rigid, self-involved and intellectually alert' woman who finds
it exceedingly difficult to understand Lee's personality and his withdrawing
behavior. She does not understand that Lee's withdrawal is a form of violent but
silent protest against his neglect by her--and represents his reaction to a
complete absence of any real family life. She seemed to be interested enough in
the welfare of this boy to be willing to seek guidance and help as regards her
own difficulties and her management of Lee,
"Neurological examination remained essentially negative with the exception of
slightly impaired hearing in the left ear, resulting from a mastoidectomy in
1946. History of convulsions and accidental injuries to the skull was denied.
Family history is negative for mental disease.

"Summary for Probation Officer's Report:
"This 13-year-old, well-built boy, has superior mental resources and functions
only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic truancy from
school---which brought him into Youth House. No finding of neurological
impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made. Lee has to be diagnosed as
personality pattern disturbance with schizoid features and passive--aggressive.
Lee has to be seen as an emotionally, quite disturbed youngster who suffers
under the impact of really existing emotional isolation and deprivation; lack of
affection, absence of family life and rejection by a self-involved and
conflicted mother. Although Lee denies that he is in need of any other form of
help other than 'remedial' one, we gained the definite impression that Lee can
be reached through contact with an understanding and very patient
psychotherapist and if he could be drawn at the same time into group
psychotherapy. We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should be
placed on probation under the condition that
he seek help and guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where
he should be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, to
a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the same time his
mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic guidance through contact with a
family agency. If this plan does not work out favorably and Lee cannot
cooperate in this treatment plan on an out-patient basis, removal from the home
and placement could be resorted to at a later date, but it is our definite
impression that treatment on probation should be tried out before the stricter
and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to the case of
this boy. The Big Brother movement could be undoubtedly of tremendous value in
this case and Lee should be urged to join the organized group activities of his
community, such as provided by the PAL or YMCA of his neighborhood."