Donald Trump, being the businessman and entrepreneurial baron that he is--and thus expertly knowing how to sell--should be forgiven for hyperbolically saying what repressed and frustrated crowds want to hear; the recent phenomenon of real far right-wingers suddenly ranking high in European polls and elsewhere in the world should help to put things into perspective. What Trump said regarding Islamism should not immediately disqualify him from being a runner for the Oval Office. At best, critics may accuse him of being a demagogue--plenty of wiggle room to make this argument! But to compare him to Hitler is uncalled for; he has not ordered the deaths of millions of Jews--he has simply proposed to keep adherents of a certain popular death cult out of the country on safety grounds.

Who is David Cameron to criticise Trump when the Prime Minister hasn't even done enough about Islamic radicalisation in the UK? And what type of criticism is Dick Cheney's 'Donald Trump is opposed to everything we stand for and believe in'? People who oppose majorities are known as contrarians and sometimes they are right! (In some contexts, to be called a contrarian is a compliment.) People who sheepishly follow majorities often don't think for themselves; they just follow the trend. If the sickeningly and unknowingly pro-fascist Liberal Left want to analogously bring Hitler into the equation when impugning Trump, they should know that supporters of the vox populi fuelled the Nazi engine and are thus partly responsible for the Holocaust. What would have happened if contrarians like Emile Zola were dissuaded from publicly impugning the rampant anti-Semitism in the early 20th century? Imagine if nobody ever defied the majority by defending the wrongly accused, such as Alfred Dreyfus?

Donald Trump has merely said what many of us are thinking but are too palled to express, and what very few of the candidly corageous are doing in the worldly arena. (As an example of the latter, and quite tellingly, José Eduardo dos Santos--president of Angola--tolerates all religions but one, for he knows the adherents of such justifiably banned religious ideology are only loyal to one set of rules: Sharia Law.) And while liberals refuse to acknowledge this simple fact, many nitwits signed a petition to have Trump banned from the UK on the grounds of racial hatred. To those people, I vehemently ingeminate that it is not about race. Any person--of any race--can be a Muslim; and if you think the majority are dark-skinned with roots in Mesopotamia, think again: Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world. (And may we never forget how they decimated scores of Christians and unbelievers as soon as Timor got their independence from the Portuguese.)

I'm not just an atheist, I'm an anti-theist, too, because I think belief in gods will always have a tendency to lead to pernicious Orwellian dystopias run by theocratic politicos, and everywhere you find Islam, in particular, you will find trouble in the form of opposition to native traditions and culture. Need I remind everyone that Muslims in the UK have denounced and vituperated British soldiers whilst demanding Sharia Law in sickening protests? (Never mind the murder committed by Michael Adebolajo and Adebowale, I'm talking about so-called moderates--many of which wear Taqiyya, the divinely permitted licence of deception, up their sleeves!) Yes, it is a good idea to expel Syrian Muslim refugees and send them to the many neighbouring countries in and around the Levant--who refused to help with the migrant crisis, by the way--where they can more easily find suitable job positions. (Saudi Arabia, in particular, which is partly responsible for the Islamism observed in al-Qaeda and ISIS, currently refuses any kind of migrant influx.)

On the moderate Muslim note, let's not forget that many mosques in the UK have helped and harboured Islamic fugitives, such as the jihadi terrorist 'Mohamed Mohamed' who was disguised in a burqa by a mosque in Acton. So how can some Western Liberals say Trump is worse than Islamic hate preachers, and call for his immediate ban from the UK and from the US presidential election, when we've had anti-Western 'Islam-for-UK' activists for decades, such as the 'untouchable'--I guess Trump had a slight point about the frightened 'politically correct' British police, too--Anjem Chowdary, whose protégés went on to do his dirty work which included murder. (I was only 13 when I first heard of one of the victims of his brainwashed confederates--the scene of the crime was very close to home: East Ham College, where my eldest sister was studying at the time.) I've worked in Southall for a few years, too, and I've seen and heard many young Muslims who attend the local mosques. They express a hatred for Jews, homosexuals, infidels, and Western powers, with gusto. Any media that only airs those so-called Muslims willing to speak out against ISIS are in cahoots with the government's propagandists. Shame on them!

Ask yourself how many Muslims would say that Salman Rushdie and Charlie Hebdo 'deserved what they got'? And isn't it sickening to hear our crowd say, 'They asked for it.' (As if the atrocities need some sort of justification and the victims were wrong for freely expressing themselves!) The following intentions, acts and beliefs, which can be observed in many UK Muslims, can be traced back to--and inspired by--suras in the Qur'an, the Hadith, and Prophet Muhammad's teachings: hatred for infidels (tribalism); homophobia; rape and drubbing as methods of punishment and discipline for women; misogyny; misology; swinophobia; infibulation; arranged marriage; honour killings (yes!); death for apostates and the list of flagitious ideas goes on. It's irksome to witness our society continuously making concessions for adherents of an insidious popular (among people not used to thinking) cult based on the terrible delusion that all religions are the same and equally deserving of respect. Sam Harris was on the money when he stated that Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas in a confrontation with that actor Ben Affleck, the twonk who said criticising Islam is 'racist'.

Jihad and martyrdom is uniquely emphasised in Islamic scripture; it makes no sense to say that ISIS is pretending to adhere to Islam and giving it a bad name when: a) hideous instructions are found in the Qur'an so it already has a 'bad name' since its foundation; b) Muhammad was a vile warrior with a thirst for conquest; c) Where are the Buddhist suicide bombers? There is obviously something profoundly wrong with Islam. Take a look at the Qur'an and see for yourself ... Why couldn't the media worldwide defy the terrorists after the Charlie Hebdo atrocity by taking to the streets with placcards depicting the Prophet Muhammad? (Depicting the prophet is 'haram' IN Islam--not in other religions or secularism--so why should every non-Muslim be made to follow this rule? As it's often said, if you find something on TV offensive, don't watch it--and may I append that perceived offence doesn't warrant the murder of BBC producers either.)

We are not asking moderate Muslims to actively condemn ISIS on a daily basis as anyone can do this. We are asking them to look at their faith and actively criticise it ... and then reform it to a more civil and cosmopolitan standard. If they are not prepared to do so, then perhaps it's time for them to rethink how bad they'd like to remain in Western democratic nations--it might mean the renunciation of their Islamic apotheosis or their migration to a land that holds the same ideals. What I don't want to do is make any more concessions than I already do. I don't think it's right for a school to give Muslim parents the option to refuse their children an educational visit to the local Church. What should be called into question are the reasons for such refusal as it's not very ecumenical. (Unless they disagree that all religious paths lead to the same 'mountain of truth' as we were once taught in RE.) What are such parents afraid of? That their child might suddenly express a wish to be Christian? Have any Christians thought about calling them 'Christianophobic'?

As a secular parent, I have no reservations about my children visiting a Church to learn about charity and a religious ideology that many hold dear--it's just an educational trip, for goodness' sake, and the priest, however much he'll be speaking from a believer's point of view, won't be proselytising anyone. Once upon a time, capitalist politicians who were aggressively more conservative than Donald Trump were welcome in McCarthy's war against communists. Today's main fascist villain is far worse as it's not just a political orientation like Leninism, it is a religious one, and religion appears to be a dangerous trump card in today's world more so than ever before as we now have nuclear weapons. Reforming Islam may also prove difficult to people like Quilliam's Majid Nawaz as the Qur'an purports to be the 'unalterable word of God'.

PS: By the way, I've always suspected Jeremy Corbyn on being dodgy! By the sounds of the latest news, he'd be quite happy to have an Islamic Communist UK seen as the Labour partisan has been having regular meetings with terror suspect Abdul Raoof Al Shayeb of Bahrain--who ironically disguised himself as a human rights activist and appeared to be planning a terrorist attack in his home. Corbyn has also been criticised for quoting Albanian Communist dictator Enver Hoxha. Oust Corbyn in favour of Hilary Benn to run the Labour Party!

[ Post made via Android ]

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

The recent mass shootings in San Bernadino, CA, and in Paris, both apparently committed by Islamic extremists, are certainly very disturbing. However, there are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, the vast majority of whom just want to live a normal, peaceful life.

Combating ISIS, and similar extremist groups, is very challenging. Even if the U.S. and our allies tried to "carpet bomb" ISIS-held areas on the Mid-East, who would step in to fill the power vacuum? U.S. and allied ground troops could not occupy the region forever. And multiple regional ethnic and religious sect groups have no interest in cooperating, rather than fighting each other.

Donald Trump says we should not allow Muslims to enter the U.S. (even Muslim diplomats?), and we should require all U.S. Muslims to be registered. Unless you send police into mosques, how exactly do you find all the Muslims? Should the police stop anyone who looks like they are from the Mid-East? Suppose they say they are a Christian or are Jewish? One of the founding principles of this country has been the ideal of freedom of religion.

About 30,000 people in the U.S. are killed by firearms each year, and about 10,000 of these deaths are homicides.

I recommend these articles -

- "US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data from Mother Jones' Investigation" - motherjones.com Includes list of names of gunmen, the vast majority of whom have not been Muslims.

Here is a quote from article - "Are All Terrorists Muslims? It's Not Even Close" - dailybeast.com "Honestly when is the last time we heard the media refer to those who attack abortion clinics as 'Christian terrorists,' even though these attacks occur at one of very five reproductive health-care facilities. That doesn't sell well, after all, we are a so-called Christian nation ..."

The Muslim Suffi poet, Rumi, is one of the most popular poets in the world, including in the U.S. His philosophy was based on peace and love. Two of his poems -

"Out beyond ideas of wrong doing and right doing,There is a field. I'll meet you there"

"Be certain that in the religion of Love, There are no believers and unbelievers. Love embraces all."

Also see YouTube video - "Rumi and the Play Of Poetry" Poet/translator, Coleman Barks, recites poems by Rumi, accompanied by Celtic/Appalachian music.

Thank you very much for your input, jasmine2. Let me start by reminding you (or informing you) that when the Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa to have Salman Rushdie killed for his apparently 'blasphemous' novel--causing this one to go into hiding--the millions of good Muslims you speak of were eerily silent on the matter. (And the many who took to the streets in Western democratic countries called for the author's death.) And this was the so-called wise Yosuf Islam on the matter of endorsing Rushdie's condemnation:

'Under Islamic Law, the ruling regarding blasphemy is quite clear; the person found guilty of it must be put to death. Only under certain circumstances can repentance be accepted ... The fact is that as far as the application of Islamic Law and the implementation of full Islamic way of life in Britain is concerned, Muslims realise that there is very little chance of that happening in the near future. But that shouldn't stop us from trying to improve the situation and presenting the Islamic viewpoint wherever and whenever possible. That is the duty of every Muslim and that is what I did.'

I don't know if you are aware of this, but the United States has nowhere near the same number of Muslims as France or the UK. Last I checked, Muslims in the US only constitute just over 1% of the population (so no wonder more crimes have been committed by the Christian majority there) compared to 5% in Britain and 8% France (probably more now). You apparently have no idea what is like to live surrounded by many of them. I do. If you really want to make a case for Christian opprobrium, be my guest; I already pointed out in the OP that I dislike religion in general as it leads to conflict. (You could have mentioned Balkans War and how in the '90s the largely Christian Serbian army began to decimate scores of Muslims in Bosnia.)

But make no mistake: you hear of suicide bombers and you really don't have a clue what's going on if you don't think, 'Muslim'. Even in the United States, with its minute Muslim minority, could not escape the venomous clutches of Islam. If you live there and you don't mind Islamic terrorist attacks because, as you pointed out, America already endures crimes committed by Christians, fine, but do you really want a second group causing death and civil unrest? Nobody is saying Christians don't do it, but we are pointing out that Muslims do it and so far have not even attempted to reform their faith. The anonymous author of Terrorist Hunter (I recommend that you read it) went undercover to monitor proceedings at Muslim conferences in the States and described a shocking level of intolerance among Muslims living in the West. The author witnessed Arab-American children performing skits in which they killed Jews and became martyrs. Sheikh Ikrima Sabri, a mufti once appointed by Yasir Arafat, once said: 'The Jews do not dare bother me, because they are the most cowardly creatures Allah has ever created ... We tell them: In as much as you love life, the Muslim loves death and martyrdom.' This guy actively encouraged child suicide bombers by preaching not in Palestine but at the Twenty-sixth Annual Convention of the Islamic Circle of North America, in Cleveland, Ohio!

As Sam Harris puts it in The End of Faith:

'On almost every page, the Koran instructs observant Muslims to despise non-believers. On almost every page, it prepares the ground for religious conflict. Anyone who can read passages like those quoted above and still not see a link between Muslim faith and Muslim violence should probably consult a neurologist.'

The Pew Research Centre for the People and the Press once conducted a global survey on Muslims by posing the question 'Is Suicide Bombing in Defence of Islam Justifiable?' and the results were quite disturbing when they compared the options 'Yes', 'No' and 'Refused'. (What's more, places like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, Iran, Sudan, Iraq, and Palestine were never included.)

jasmine2 wrote:However, there are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, the vast majority of whom just want to live a normal, peaceful life.

Yes, they want a 'normal, peaceful life' under Sharia law for everyone--whether non-believers want it or not!

jasmine2 wrote:Combating ISIS, and similar extremist groups, is very challenging. Even if the U.S. and our allies tried to "carpet bomb" ISIS-held areas on the Mid-East, who would step in to fill the power vacuum? U.S. and allied ground troops could not occupy the region forever. And multiple regional ethnic and religious sect groups have no interest in cooperating, rather than fighting each other.

You've no idea what you're talking about. The US government is partly responsible for the creation of ISIS as the CIA has spoon-fed al-Qaeda and other Islamic groups in the Levant against Syrian dictator Assad and have been profiting from weapons sales by supporting Kurdish militias against Sunnis and Shiites:

jasmine2 wrote:Donald Trump says we should not allow Muslims to enter the U.S. (even Muslim diplomats?),

Especially diplomats as they are the most conniving!

jasmine2 wrote:and we should require all U.S. Muslims to be registered. Unless you send police into mosques, how exactly do you find all the Muslims?

With spies and informants just like in the days of Malcolm X and his former coterie of Muslim black supremacists. The FBI had no qualms about infiltrating fishy mosques. Muslims have duties and are not hard to find.

jasmine2 wrote:Should the police stop anyone who looks like they are from the Mid-East?

Absolutely not. As I pointed out in the OP, it's not about race or nationality. It's about beliefs; in this case, adherents of a dangerous ideology which can never be compatible with civilisation.

jasmine2 wrote:Suppose they say they are a Christian or are Jewish? One of the founding principles of this country has been the ideal of freedom of religion.

Unfortunately, Taqiyya allows Muslims to lie to the infidel. Freedom of expression so long as you don't force it on others and harm them in the process. After all, that is why the KKK are not welcome by the White House. The First Amendment also includes the separation of church and state, and yet, they've already cocked that one up, haven't they? 'God bless America'; 'In God We Trust'; and 'No atheists in the Oval Office'.

jasmine2 wrote:About 30,000 people in the U.S. are killed by firearms each year, and about 10,000 of these deaths are homicides.

That's because America needs a better vetting system. In Europe, it's mostly knives. These are different matters. Like I said before, if you want more domestic problems, continue to let Syrian Muslim refugees in.

The Qur'an is borrowed from both Jewish and Christian myths. Again, an angel recites the word of God to an individual from an illiterate part of the world, in an epoch when people in general knew much less about the world let alone the cosmos. Jews were the first to hear of such plagiarism, and to discard it. (This only added to the roots of Islamic anti-Semitism.) The only thing in its favour is the fact that Muhammad, the son of Abdullah, is existentially more probable than Jesus.

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

Religion is the true problem, it just so happens that centuries of poverty and lack of education have left Islam in a dark age (and all religions have one or more if they survive long enough, - but then again one could say that religion is a permanent dark age).I'm pretty relaxed about Muslim immigration.... in a 100 years there won't be any religious people outside of mental asylums (because that's where they belong, to be viciously frank). It's even maybe a good thing because we can educate their children in secularism and evolution..... Do you think religious schools should be banned? I don't think the government should fund them (in Australia we fund religious schools A LOT) at the very least. And religious institutions should be taxed like businesses, because that's what they are.Children shouldn't be lied to by adults, especially hypocritical ones who only pretend to be religious.

In the Islam debate it's important to make terminological distinctions to avoid all the confusion. The fascist pseudo-Left fails to differentiate between individuals and ideas. It's the simplest concept to comprehend, yet the most salient, and as such most people skip over it. I loathe Islam and Christianity. Anyone who finds it offensive to say they hate Islam and Christianity by consequence supports intolerance, war, murder, suppression of society, and a litany of other crimes.

What it means to be an adherent of a religion has been obfuscated, and perhaps there never actually was a conclusive definition of a true religious devotee. What percentage of a religion's population genuinely follows (or intends to follow) every word of their beloved canon? If it's not 0%, it's close. But what percentage of the Christian community says that they support every word of the Bible? It's quite large. Religion is irrational and self-contradictory as always, and this makes it more difficult for us secularists to understand precisely what is going on. There is a difference between Islam and a Muslim. The "Muslim" is only a Muslim in that she calls herself a Muslim.

So to say that Muslims are violent and dangerous is logically absurd. But those who follow the Quran and the Hadith and Shariah are of necessity violent and dangerous.

Have you read Sam Harris's new book on "Islam and the Future of Tolerance," Summerlander? I have no time to read what I like these days, so I haven't been able to pick it up. Love to hear what you think of it.

deschainXIX wrote:But what percentage of the Christian community says that they support every word of the Bible? It's quite large.

And what's funny is that you could recite the most hideous passages from Deuteronomy to Christians whilst pretending you're reading from the Qur'an and they would agree with you that they are vile and incompatible with civilisation.

deschainXIX wrote:So to say that Muslims are violent and dangerous is logically absurd. But those who follow the Quran and the Hadith and Shariah are of necessity violent and dangerous.

Bingo!

deschainXIX wrote:Have you read Sam Harris's new book on "Islam and the Future of Tolerance," Summerlander? I have no time to read what I like these days, so I haven't been able to pick it up. Love to hear what you think of it.

I might be getting it for Christmas.

I fear that Majid Nawaz, as a Muslim, almost stands alone in his quest to reform Islam. He seems to mean well and Sam Harris supports him in order to encourage other Muslims to do the same (because he's learnt that Islam is not going away anytime soon). The trouble is that the emphasis that the Qur'an is the 'unalterable word of God' is strong--so much so that many believe it shouldn't even be translated from Arabic--and I fear a humanistic exegesis from an ethnically Pakistani English simply won't do. According to the Qur'an, Muslims are not supposed to befriend non-believers. Nawaz has already committed the sin of just engaging in a civil conversation with Sam Harris and tolerating this one's atheism.

I am currently reading Stuart Prebble's Secrets of the Conqueror: The Untold Story of Britain's Most Famous Submarine. It's about the HMS Conqueror's derring-do during the Cold War and the Falklands conflict. War, history and politics. (The author had to wait for years to publish the book because it contains material that was top secret at the time.) I will read Islam and the Future of Tolerance eventually!

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

In the future, Maajid Nawaz is remembered like a messiah who refined the exegesis of the word of God in the Koran, Summerlander. So, you see, he did succeed in reforming Islam. By the way, excerpts of Islam and the Future of Tolerance are available in audiobook format on Sam Harris's blog.

Sure. And they have shrines dedicated to Quilliam disciples. How Nawaz manages to persuade every Wahabist and Salafist, in the future, to adopt his benign and tolerant version of Islam, I don't know.

ISIS is now recruting youngsters from villages in Afghanistan and even 'stealing' troops from the Taliban. Afghanistan, like Syria, is another disaster waiting to happen. (Worse than it already is and has been.) Wait and see!

Meanwhile in Borneo, the largest Asian island in the Pacific, there is a place where Christmas is banned! Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah of Brunei, who implemented Sharia Law in the largely Sunni territory, has decided that Muslims could be theologically compromised if exposed to non-Muslim religious propaganda. And the native imams--who tend to discriminate against religious minorities such as Christians and Buddhists--agree! Anyone who is found to be celebrating Christmas could face up to five years in jail; this includes festive greetings (in public or online) and the wearing of Santa hats.

So while in the West our multicultural democracies are very careful not to depict the Prophet Muhammad for fear of death or being labelled 'Islamophobic', the Eastern Islamic States clearly discriminate against our way of life and traditions. Perhaps the Sultan is trying to forestall the tragedy of mass apostasy in Islam as the penalty for defectors is death. Who knows! Most Muslims in Brunei, it seems, hold the opinion that Christianity is outdated and that Islam is the final and only divine revelation. And don't get them started on Buddhism ...

[ Post made via Android ]

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

I don't doubt that the world could take many turns. I just doubt your future!

[ Post made via Android ]

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."