Reply to post: Re: Just when you thought...

Re: Just when you thought...

>>Actually I thought you'd have picked up on why I chose 'idiot' rather than any other pejorative term

Actually, I was simply noting that you use pejoratives in the first place. I repeatedly engage with your points and refute them whilst you selectively skip over most of mine and toss in a few arguments by assertion and attacks on credibility such as trying to dismiss counter-information as "a handful of pissed off Germans". I'm sorry that my citing such figures as Angela Merkel, the German trade minister and writers for respected financial journals don't compare with with the assertions of you the Random Poster on the Internet.

The repeated accusations that I am unaware / an idiot / biased would be a low tactic by themself. But to also make credibility attacks on innumerable respected political commentators and financial experts, is absurd.

>>A list of 'Whatabouts' of does not change the fact the the US still has Rule Of Law, as Trump finds out to his cost, whereas Russia has rule of Putin regardless of law or constitution.

If I were trying to prove that Russia had never done anything wrong, then yes, it would be whataboutism. But if someone starts trying to argue moral superiority of their side, then pointing out wrongs done by that side isn't whataboutism. It's an actual response to your position. Obviously.

Also, your argument was that Gazprom and Rosneft were "abnormal" in their wrong-doing. I provided a list of especially egregious behaviour by non-Russian oil companies. Including involvement in the Iraq war! I don't think your reply about Russian constitution is to the point, therefore. You appear to be attempting to subtly generalise where convenient. Or, let us call it whataboutery.

>>given the logistics in trying to get US gas over to Germany with the Atlantic Ocean in the way rather than building a pipeline to a different European or Asian country that would be a pretty weak strategy.

The USA exports oil currently. Mainly to Europe and China. An article by the FT (yes, I'm sorry you regard them as "hearsay" but I'm going to keep using them) predicts that by 2020, US exports will exceed that of most OPEC members. You seem to think the USA exporting to Europe is difficult because of "logistics", but they use things called oil tankers. Mainly out of ports in the Gulf of Mexico. Here is one of them:

I mean you're right - it IS less efficient to ship oil from the USA than it is for Europe to import it by pipeline from Russia. Which is why the USA wants to stop the oil pipeline from being extended and us buying from Russia. But you would have this be coincidence even in the face of it being accepted fact by financial analysts and political commentators in both East and West. Sorry, correction - you have now conceded that it "may" have something to do with it.

>>That's a highly circuitous way of describing that Russians should be allowed to break US laws.

Or alternately, I'm just arguing what I say I'm arguing - that people should be allowed to read foreign viewpoints. Which is why I'd like to see these "divisive" ads that Facebook has banned on our behalf.

I'm going to ask you a question. Does it not bother you that you are now at the level of misrepresenting articles in the FT and The Economist and statements by Angela Merkel as "hearsay". That you are demonstrably engaging in exactly the things you accuse me of ("whataboutery") and making repeated character attacks?

To dismiss articles in the FT and others as "hearsay" is an absurd level of misrepresentation.

>>You even mention Enron which was a scandal in 2001, widely publicised in the so-called MSM, and which led to new legislation, Sarbannes-Oxley, to try to prevent it happening again. Would these sorts of things happen to Gazprom or Rosneft

So firstly, in a list that included actually formenting wars, support of vicious regimes and shielding US criminals from prosecution by foreign nationals, you've chosen to hone in on one favoured example. A tactic you have used repeatedly in the discussion as you selectively ignore many of my points. Secondly, you were trying to make the case that Gazprom and Rosneft were morally "abnormal". Pointing at one of the largest financial scandals in American history and saying we found out about it, doesn't make it not an example of oil companies engaging in massive wrong-doing. Oh, and the reason Enron was caught was because they went bankrupt and lost their investors money. Up until then, they continued with their massive fraud quite merrily. It's not as if the US government sought out and prosecuted criminal behaviour. It was a clean-up job. But my main rebuttal is the first one: That I presented you a list of examples of wrong-doing and you cherry-picked the one you could half-represent as having a silver lining.

Again, this thread is a sterling example of what happens when the narrative is controlled by one side. Any conflict with that narrative results in determined resistance to the new information. And attempts to fit it into a world view of "us and them" and moral winners and losers. The very fact that you see this in terms of who is a Good Guy and who is a Bad Guy is evidence of being invested in one particular narrative.