This is a support group for people raised by a parent with toxic, self-absorbed or abusive personality traits, which may be exhibited by those who suffer from cluster B personality disorders.

Because narcissists rarely seek care, few of our parents have a formal diagnosis. So in this space, "narcissist" is a term used loosely to refer to a variety of conditions, and is not used in a clinical sense. We are not professionals and cannot diagnose anybody. Please share your stories, your histories, your fears, and your triumphs.

If you know you are a narcissist,

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No political posts until the mods take the rule down (this will be well after the elections). We are seeing wayyyy too many "Trump/Hillary triggers me/reminds me of my n-parent" posts right now turning into huge rule-breaking fights that are a moderating nightmare. Because of this, all political posts will be removed until the political fervor has died down. You can post these types of post to /r/narcsinthewild.

My mom has strong narcissistic traits. As her daughter, I have experienced years of emotional and physical abuse. She has no boundaries, and sees me only as an extension of herself.

Only in the last couple of years did I realize that my parents (my father was also physically abusive, although I was one of his more well-liked children) were abusive at all.

I was diagnosed with PTSD and generalized anxiety disorder when I was young. For most of my life, I've believed that I was just crazy, and oversensitive. My parents explained that my disorder had no real cause, I was just going through puberty and this is what happened to kids. My doctor prescribed therapy, but my parents discouraged me from going.

My parents seemed to be very functional. For all of the horrible times, there were a lot of good times. It felt (and sometimes still feels) wrong for me to say that my parents were abusive. They would never say the same of themselves.

My mom would yell and hit, criticize, and berate me. But, she would always remind me of what a good mom she was. In her eyes she was a great parent, and I was a selfish, and difficult child.

I now see the abuse very clearly. I'm seeing a therapist and she has been very helpful and validating.

As I've tried (I'm still trying) to establish my independence, and separate myself from my mom, things have escalated. As I began to make my own money, and stand up for myself, my mom became more upset.

I'm now living away from home, and working on becoming completely independent. I've been able to reflect on everything that's happened in my life, and the way my parents have treated me. As a result, I've become very angry.

I feel so angry at my parents. In the past I would feel intense anger while being abused, but it would always have to be silenced. I wasn't allowed to yell of throw tantrums like they were. I had to stay above reproach.

I was pulled by my arm, naked, out of the shower, as a teenager, because somehow I "knew" my mom wanted to take a shower in the middle of the afternoon, and I was only using the shower at that time to spite her. I had to get over it and be ready to hug her, say "I love you" and "I'm sorry" an hour or two later. This was a very consistent pattern. Her anger was always my fault.

I feel so bitter towards my mom these days, and it makes me feel like a horrible person. The other day, I tried talking to someone close to me about how hurt and angry I was feeling. It really put her off, and she told me I shouldn't be "living in the past". I shouldn't be so focused on the bad things. She thought I was just being ungrateful.

I'm struggling today because I feel like an ungrateful brat. My mom always told me how ungrateful and selfish I was, and I feel like its true. My parents have always had money. They've always been able to support me financially. My mom would never let me forget that.

I feel like I just want to get over it. I want to be able to let go of all of this angriness. Its causing me to truly hate myself. I just feel like an entitled bitch. My upbringing was pretty shitty, its left me with low self-esteem and emotional scars, but it wasn't all shitty. Is all this anger even necessary? Does it serve any sort of purpose? How do you stop being angry? How do you move on and forgive?

First of all, don't feel horrible or ungrateful or like a brat. You're not. You are a victim of abuse and its not your fault.

Also, don't listen to that other person. They don't know what you went through and they can't judge you. Its none of their business.

As for the anger, well, I'm in the same boat as you. I've been seeing a therapist for a couple of months now and I've been in an all-consuming rage and depression for these couple of months. We're still going over what happened, so bringing up all this stuff is really getting to me. I can't really give you any advice in that regard, since I'm in the same boat.

Thanks, I appreciate this. Part of the problem is that I'm still living with my parents at the moment - I'm working on moving out, but its just not feasible at the moment. I have to get a handle on some of my problems first before I can move out and function properly.

My parents were not physically abusive, but my mom loves to gaslight and if I do something she doesn't like or doesn't want (ex: hanging out with friends instead of visiting her during the week leading up to college graduation) it turns into "how could you do this to ME?!"

I understand your anger because I often feel the same. All-consuming rage and the desire to sit my parents down and berate them hits me at random times during the day. There's no off switch for that feeling, and I know if I try to talk to them about how I'm feeling, it will get turned around on me. I'd love to know what makes the anger fade.

That being said, have you considered writing them a letter? Not one that you'd send, but one where you vent out how you're feeling. I've done this with other people and it helps me get my thoughts and feelings out in a place where I won't be judged, silenced, punished, or interrupted. Plus, my notebook doesn't care if I write about the same things a hundred times. I'm never lectured for my content or told that sorting through my feelings is living in the past. Maybe a similar exercise would help here?

You are NOT a complainer. You've been through a lot of horrible things and you're trying to come to terms with that and move on to a healthier place. Keep in mind, different people deal with trauma in different ways. Some people need to talk about it again and again to process it. There is nothing wrong with that. Get your feelings and thoughts out. It's so much better for you than bottling them up. (And, yes, this is coming from someone who bottles everything up and is realizing just how detrimental that is.)

Well, first of all, as far as I can see you don't owe them anything. Children are the obligation of their parents from birth. You never ask for that.

Second, they raised you, so your emotional state when you think about them is their fault. They raised you, how you feel about them is 100% dependent on their actions. Even if your problems weren't their fault, they had a lot of time that they should have been helping you with them. They discouraged therapy, your attitude towards them is their fault, not yours. If you had good parents, you wouldn't have PTSD and anger issues just thinking about them. It's completely their fault.

From what you're saying, it seems as though the main reason you have trouble considering them abusive is because they were rich enough that they had money to throw at you along with the abuse. Providing for somebody doesn't make them less abusive. In fact it makes them worse, not better. They kept you on a rope that a poorer abuser wouldn't be able to afford.

Now going forwards:

Getting rid of the trauma, there are a lot of things you can do for that. Therapy is good, you're making the right choice there. You're seeking support.

There are a few ways to treat PTSD, but I don't think I can give you any recommendations that a therapist wouldn't be able to do better.

Regarding being ungrateful and forgiving:

Your parents should be happy that you're happy, even if you completely cut off contact with them. That's supposed to be why parents help you out. So that YOU are happy. If they're expecting gratitude and attention then they're the ones who are being bratty.

Just trying to forgive them makes you the better person. Accept your emotional state, you can't forgive them and that's their fault. You WANT to forgive them because you're a good person.

And then, with that in mind: Remember that people who actually understand what you're going through don't think they deserve forgiveness or gratitude. If you want to forgive them, it should be to help yourself and not them.

And if you feel that you have to forgive them, why not pencil it in for later? Forgiveness doesn't have to be a feeling, it can be a choice you make. You want to forgive them, but you can't deal with them emotionally. That's fine, that's not your fault. Nobody has 100% control of their feelings, and you're already doing more than they've earned.

Finally, what emotional state you should work towards:

I've known a handful of people who were completely at peace with their abusive childhoods. It tends towards two types of parental relationship:

The first are the ones who have completely severed their emotional connection to their parents. They dismiss their parents as a traumatic obstacle that they have overcome.

The second ones are the ones who have reassessed their parental relationship. Narcissism is a trait of young children, the only difference is that narcissist adults are more knowledgeable and self sufficient, so the only way you can punish them is by cutting off contact. (or in the worst cases, calling the police). It's very difficult for people to mentally reassign "parent" to "overgrown child".

Getting to either state typically takes between five and ten years, but can be as long as thirty for particularly abusive parents. Don't feel bad if you have to cut off contact with them completely during that time, that's normal.

And don't ever give them an OUNCE of control over you, you KNOW they can't rationally exercise authority and they shouldn't be given the opportunity. For a lot of children, ceding authority to the parents is a lifelong habit that's difficult to break.

Lastly, disregard your friend. Normal parents do not force their kids out of the shower naked, just that ALONE is the kind of incident that a NORMAL person would be bitching and hateful about twenty years later. Heck, my mother called my sister fat in two conversations, and my sister wouldn't talk to her again until she got a written apology. That lack of civility isn't acceptable to most people.

If it makes you feel better I could have written your post almost word for word. As a DoNM I also struggle with these feelings because my parents too have also been there for me with financial and material needs.

You were emotionally abused as a child. This is a very hard thing to accept. Personally, even though I know I was emotionally abused I still haven't accepted this fact. That's ok. These things take time. If you haven't read Will I Ever Be Good Enough? by McBride you should. It will have some validation for your feelings there. Also, the anger you feel is a natural part of the grieving process. You are grieving the loss of the parents you thought you had. If you are interested about the grieving process I recommend reading On Death and Dying by Kubler-Ross. While you are not grieving the death of a family member, studies of shown that people go through a similar process when they lose things important to them.

My own personal experience though is that I was angry for months. Eventually it washed into sadness which is where I am now. Keep seeing your therapist they should be helpful in this journey. Just don't expect it to happen overnight.

Eventually it passes. I was really angry for many years, but I realized that anger was really justified and I channeled it into shaping my future. My mom may have had control of me for all those years but now I am the one with power in the relationship.

Now if my mom treats me badly I don't bother seeing her or talking to her, this is hard for her to accept as she gets older and nearer death (that even if she is sick and dying I won't put up with her crap and will walk right out). Cutting the bad things out of your life and keeping only the positive really helps the anger subside.

I'm new to the "standing up to my nparent" game. I asked for space last night and I'm already going through hell. It's like she's torturing me without even being in my life. The 29 years of brainwashing and abuse has wired me to feel horrible for no meeting her needs.

I can relate with SO much of what you've said.

My mother abused the hell out of me (and my dad and brother), but it was never when I was actually out of line. It was only when she'd come home from work after a bad day, find a reason to blow up at me--most times ending up with a few slaps but sometimes the metal end of a belt or punch to the face. Then I'd be banished to my bedroom and if she heard me cry she'd get even more pissed.

After an hour or so I'd go apologize to her (everything was always my fault) and then she'd break down crying, and spend about a half hour making sure I felt guilty for upsetting her. Sometimes she'd just put herself down waiting for me to comfort her and I always did.

I don't have any advice for moving on but I want you to know that I feel your pain and live the same nightmare you are living. We need to stay strong and not turn our backs on our own well-being. Please feel free to PM me here. I just discovered this subreddit and I would love to have friends on here to share stories and support eachother.

I had to get over it and be ready to hug her, say "I love you" and "I'm sorry" an hour or two later. This was a very consistent pattern. Her anger was always my fault.

Same here. I'm NC with my NM and her family, and I can't forgive them because I feel like it would be like when I had to say "I'm sorry, Mommy." Like it excuses the behavior and tells them it's okay to be a narcissistic asshole. I'm pretty sure she's still waiting for the "I'm sorry I cut off contact with you, Mommy!" but that's never going to happen because this is me finally showing her that her actions have consequences, she can't control me, and it's not all about her. And if she never gets it then that's just too bad for her.

for the children of narcissists, honesty is not something we are taught as what you would call a fundamental.

So, firstly we need to take stock of what is both wrong and right about us, to do this honestly is to not gloss over our nastiness and not demonise ourselves over trivialities.

You don't ever succeed at this, but the practice makes you better.

Once you know who you are, and what you have in your list of strengths and weaknesses you can decide how better to plan what you will do.
e.g Are you aware that you act less rationally in certain situations? then remove yourself from them, or alter them so you can function better within them.

As for Forgiveness, this concept alone needs definition.
I spent years working on it without ever genuinely pondering what it actually is.
no surprise then that i found myself unable to achieve it given i had no idea what i was looking to achieve.

The best i could figure is that forgiveness is releasing yourself from actively wishing ill upon someone, and no longer allowing your feelings about the nature of their existence to harm you.

To hate or resent or hold a swirling mass of negative emotions about someone is to harm yourself in response to their harming you, a double injury by anyone's measure.

This, simply must stop.

As for the "how", well that's where it gets tricky.
If you are able to develop a coping strategy where you can be around them and are free of negative reactions to their behavior then do so.

And by the gods tell us all your trick.

For me it involved removing the instances of interaction, this is a boundary. For many this is the last boundary and it is the only one that has a high rate of sucess for different people.

For others the boundaries, dot need to be as extreme.
But they need to exist.
Part of that comes from control over your own life and existence.
As you grow in confidence and independence you will stand stronger and will have more authority in what you do and say.

As a piece of advice, stop taking anything at all from them, accept no gifts accept no support. Live on ramen, work a crap job and thus separate and define the borders of your existence.
Prove that you in fact ARE your own existence and you will have undeniable authority to act over it.

I really don't wish you luck, because i want you to have certainty and power.
I wish you instead self control, self confidence, and independence.

I think there is a difference between "living in the past" and struggling to deal with abuse or issues that haven't been resolved emotionally for you. I, too, have been told to "get over" being abused as a child up until early adulthood by my entire family. When you never got a chance to work on healing from those bad experiences, they stay with you in a way as your life goes on. I don't think the goal is to forgive anyone when it comes to this, or at least for me personally it never was about that. What has helped me is to talk to people on this message board, people that really understand what it's like. As for the anger, I have been angry most of my life and I still am to a degree. The best help with that was going no contact and realizing that my family is mentally ill. I haven't and will never forgive them, but I understand now that they aren't right in the head. That's not to say that I don't still have days where I stew over things they did or said, but it's getting to happen less and less. I'd recommend trying out some therapy with someone that specializes in adult relationships or PTSD from relationships. You should not just "get over it". Money is never a substitute for love. Instead, narcissists use it as leverage fairly often. You are not an ungrateful person nor are you selfish. I had been told for years and years to put others before myself and one day I had enough. I told my mother the days of putting others' feelings before my own when they hurt me were over and that was that. You have to work on you so you can have a better life.

It's like I'm looking into a mirror. I'm 22, female and also had an n mom. I lucked out with a normal dad and great sisters but I'm with you on everything else.

Like you, my n mother abused me physically and emotionally. I remember justifying the abuse, thinking it wasn't "abuse" because it wasn't as bad as stuff I had overheard or fiction I've read or seen. To this day, I shiver and shake when people touch me. I get scared when someone approaches me for a hug. It's tough for me to imagine ever having a sexual relation because of my fear. Though like you, my parents always had enough money to support my sisters and I. We've had problems, but nothing financially.

It's OK to feel anger. That's natural. It means you understand what happened was wrong. I'm not perfect and I definitely haven't gotten over the anger, but it's been subsiding. I started to forgive my mother when I realized being n wasn't her fault. She didn't choose to be the way she is. Yes, she should be accounted for her actions, but she was still influenced by a disorder.

Another thing that's hard to cope with is that you will never receive an apology. I can basically guarantee it. I'm still coming to terms with it, but because of that I've actually been learning to enjoy some of the LC I have with her. Like your mother, my mother is a different person than how she was at that time. She can't hit me because I'm an adult and I can leave her forever if I wanted to. Knowing that is a personal victory for me. I'm metaphorically dangling my freedom over her head with every discussion we have. Our mothers have no reins on us any longer, and for that we have won.

It's a rough process but we're here for you. You're not alone. Kudos to trying to move on and forgive.

I could not hug for the longest time! I remember in junior high, when all my friends would hug each other hello/goodbye, I'd tell them, "Sorry, I don't hug." I've come a long way, and I'm in a mostly healthy long term relationship now. It was difficult at first. I used to shake and shiver a lot also. Hugs and touching with people who aren't my significant other can still be really awkward.

I once did receive a heartfelt apology from my mom, but I think she felt embarrassed about it a day or two later. She's since reminded herself that I'm the problem.

Since I've left home, I only receive passive-agressive, and manipulative emails. I.e. "I've loved you so much, I'm sorry that you can't love me back."

I think it would take so much for her to truly realize all the hurt she's caused me, and be able to sincerely apologize for it. I still hope that she's able to someday come to terms with her own brokenness and insecurity.

You aren't being selfish. You're having the expected and totally normal reaction of anger to having grown up with such shitty parents. You don't have to forgive them either, you don't owe them anything.
They chose to cause all of this drama, not you. You have every right to leave and be happy and to not be controlled, hit and screamed at, and you have the right to be angry at them for doing these things. They have no right to do these things to you no matter how much money they decide to throw at you.

My parents do exactly the same sort of shit and I grew up a nervous wreck who couldn't talk to people. Get beaten and prodded and called a fat selfish bitch who'll never amount to anything because I just couldn't be as wonderful and perfect as their alcoholic asses are (BUT it's okay for them to abuse me because they just toss money at me that I don't want --why am I so ungrateful? Why can't I just be a good little punching bag without opinions or feelings or bruisable skin? How dare I get a job and make my own money! I'm not good enough to have a job! But I'm such a drain on their finances and why doesn't my lazy fat ass get a fucking job??).

I left and they don't know where I live, and I've never felt better! I'm even starting to feel a bit more normal and I'm allowed to have feelings and stuff. I grew up a math-genius skinny girl with body issues wondering why I couldnt just somehow behave 'properly' like the other kids, and have severe anxiety.

(Joke's on them, I nearly have a first class physics degree from a fancy university and have, like, friends and stuff, and I'm putting my brain back together.)

I still come back to this sub sometimes because I still get angry about the fucked up shit they did to me and tried to justify or flat out deny.
It us tiring being angry, but therapy really helps with that.

If you can, leave. It is sooo worth it. You don't owe them any forgiveness or respect. They have to earn respect from you like everybody else, which they royally fucked up. If they want their kid to respect them, they should have been competent and non-abusive parents.

Ya you're not living in the past. The way I see it, this works like a statue of limitations, it starts when you realize that a crime has been committed. The actions might have happened in the past but your anger about them only just started.

Do not stop being angry until you are able to replace it as a motivator to live your life on your terms. It will not end well. It will leave an emotional vacuum that something else will fill. Without anything positive or productive to fill that gap, far more damaging things and thoughts will replace it.

Do not let the anger own you--own the anger. Own your abuse. By owning it, you take responsibility for your healing and care and your recovery can finally begin.

Listen to these wise Reditors. My experience is,that you need to be strong and realize that the N people only have as much power as you give them. It may come as a surprise to you but you are the one who actually has the power to decide what you want and don't want. Set up boundaries. Make it clear that if they cannot abide by them, they are cut off. Be strong and stick to it. Believe it or not, you are really the stronger one!

Never belittle yourself for feeling how you feel about the treatment you received from your family. It is totally, and completely justified and normal. I still get very angry at my parents for things that happened almost twenty years ago. It's hard to let emotional abuse go, especially when you haven't gotten any resolution from them. I'm all too familiar with the "my anger is your fault" routine. Years of that takes its toll, and it wasn't until I was in college that I really saw it all for what it was.

My best advice for you is to make your own way. Live and work apart from them. If you need to shut them out entirely then so be it. I took a two year hiatus from my family when I moved away for work. They couldn't pop in to see me, and I did not answer their calls. I kept them out of the equation and it was the simplest and best thing I could have done. After that they came to appreciate the little contact I did let them have with me, and have treated me much better since. I still keep my entire immediate family at arms length, and have lived geographically very far away from them for many years now. I have my own life that has nothing to do with them, and I like it that way.

I agree with all the commenters, especially u/DoesNotTalkMuch. You are survivor of abuse.

Pardon me for asking, but if you are still trying to establish independence, then are you doing so gradually? I think it's likely that your main obstacle is your Nmother, who presents herself as too fragile or volatile for you to make a clean break.

The guilt you feel is something that she put in you by always making her temper YOUR fault, and by always emphasizing how great of a parent she was. It isn't your guilt. It was forced on you, by her. That's why she's a bad, abusive parent even if there were some good times.

Because she did this to you throughout your childhood (I'm guessing), you still respond to her partially as a child might: the innocent, "I don't understand fully why you're mad but it must be my fault." You might INTELLECTUALLY know that it isn't, or that she's being abusive, or that she's not respecting you--but EMOTIONALLY, you're hardwired by her lifetime of abuse into feeling guilty, scared, and sorry for her.

Those are my thoughts. I'm not a therapist, so my psychology may be totally wrong. But I perceive those emotions in myself: even today, though I am totally NC, someone who looks or acts superficially like my Nmother brings back a portion of the guilt and fear.

If I may suggest it, I think you would curtail a lot of the guilt by going full NC. Without her presence reminding you emotionally of the guilt and fear, and without her presence in your mind as you wonder what she'll do to thwart your next step in independence (or just wonder how she'll react to whatever's going on at the moment), you will feel free to be happy for maybe the first time in your life. That was my experience. My own Nmother's toxicity became more apparent when she was cut out of my life, and I could give 100% of my emotions and feelings to people who weren't trying to hurt me, and things that I liked.

As far as the anger...well, that's still there. It dissipates as I get farther from her, but it's direct at her: how could she miss my homecoming from deployment? How could shy try as hard as she did to ruin my wedding? How dare she make the struggles my wife and I shared with a colicky, hospital-ridden child about her? How could she tell me that I could never love, or that I was completely selfish, or that we could 'rebuild' when I started acting like an adult--when I asked for her support? I think that's healthy anger, however. It is legitimate, because it's against the emotional abuse (which I believe is much harder to identify and quantify than physical, and which is occasionally worse). It serves to help you cut out the emotions which she installed in you. As those disappear, you will be able to forgive...though you won't forget.

I'm so sorry you are going through this. I think she is making your independence as hard as she can for you. Good luck, and I hope this helped!

I'm working on a degree, and I'm not making enough money to pay for my car insurance. I'm also covered on my dad's health insurance plan, though I'm going to switch sometime at the beginning of next year. I don't think my dad has any narcissistic traits, in fact I feel like he genuinely loves me. When he gives me things, it feels like I'm receiving a gift, and not like I'm selling my soul by accepting. My dad just seems to be negatively influenced by my mom. He has these bouts of rage. He doesn't see my mom for who she is. She manipulates him, and feeds him false ideas about his own kids. Its always felt different with my mom. She would give me money on random occasions, and when I started to decline her offers (because I could really do without the extra money and because I knew how many strings were attached), she would become angry and try to shame me.

Its a process. I'm low contact right now. I know that if I went fully no contact, I would be overcome with guilt. I feel so much guilt, even being low contact. My mom needs my attention, and affection. If she isn't getting it, she becomes angry, and its all turned on me. I'm still caught in this trap with her. She begins to speak poorly of me to relatives, always under the guise of the concerned mother. Even though those closest to her (namely, her sister) have seen her abuse first hand, they'll contact me and say things like, "I know your mom is deranged, but it sounds like she just really cares about you." It makes me feel like I'm just being a huge asshole by ignoring my mom's phone calls. I think I am definitely hardwired to feel all this guilt.

Right now, she's really trying hard to "win me back". Its hard not to succumb to that.