No, sweetheart. What is pathetic and extremele lame is your desperate attemp to 'tailor up' the real Yuna's skating at Worlds to the "planned" or "hypothetical" skating of Asada, but not to the real layout that she did. That's cheat and lie that you keep parading. Compare the hypothetical Mao with the hypothetical Yuna. Why do you all keep refusing doing that and always go back to Yuna's skate at Worlds-2013? Because in this case, if you finally play fair and compare the hypotheticl Mao with the hypothetical Yuna, you will have to increase Yuna's score as well. Then all your math will become void the same instant. Or are you saying that what Yuna showed us at Worlds with her juniorish combos is the maximum of her abilities? Ha! What a royalty. Incomplete analysis? Fine. Here I am. Yuna was 4th in BV at Worlds, i.e. off the podium, behind Mao and two yesterday-junior Gold and Li. She was pulled on the podium by GOE and PCS, the scenario that we have seen a lot with PChan. Moreover, she would be 4th in BV, which is the most objective factor in scoring, at Russian Junior Nationals as well. Lol. The Olympic champion can't challenge the stuff that three junior girls at RN had power and skills to perform. Her combo of three doubles was similar to the one (2T instead of 2Lo) that Chernyshova did, who was 8th (!) RJN, but unlike Yuna she did 3Lo-2T, which has a higher BV than Yuna's 3S-2T. And, in the sight of this juniorish layout of Yuna, your conditions for Mao to beat her is to go with the heck layout with 3A, 3F-3Lo, three jump combo with first triple, etc. How fair. And how rich of you to give Mao the chance to break 70 on PCS, while the hypothetical Yuna will have 75? 80?, since if the real one had 74 . It's exactly what happened with Chan more than once- the guys had to perform 3 quads, two 3A and still they couldn't beat the Canadian who had much easier layout, not mentioning that half of it he spent with his butt on the ice. Same with Yuna, just on a smaller scale. Way easier layout with poor BV got pulled on the top of the podium by GOE and PCS. Been there, seen that.

1. I already provided how Yuna can maximize her TES score and then non of her competitors would be able to win over her etc, long time ago.

2. In last post, I already gave two possible TES score potential for Asada beating Yuna's in the both cases that she goes clean with a) what she did in worlds b) what she planned to do in Worlds. No need to repeat.

The reason why I chose Yuna's current layout is it is very likely that she will continue to do this one next season in that she did so in this worlds, and worlds 2011. Same reason for Asada, it is likely that she will go for 8 triple program in olympics, as she wanted to do so in Worlds.

3. You purposedly ignored that Yuna is doing 3Lz+3T, 3Lz, 3F in her LP. No point to make comparison within her easier combo to others.

4. Speaking of which, some skaters need to do harder jump layout to beat some other skaters with superior techniques/ or presentation skill, I don't find anything wrong/unjustifiable with that. Superior jumps should be rewarded better than average jumps as terrible jumps with mistake in landing etc. should be punished.

Since judging by basevalue is far from being objective in that it does not reflect how skaters actually executed tech elements at all, I will use TES.
(judging by basevalue makes Kostner with +50 like what? 13th in LP? absurd.)

But Zijun Li placed 4th in LP. Why? Because of PCS gap between her and those two were rather HUGE : -10.28 with Asada, -12.56 with Kostner.

Zijun Li should complete more triples cleanly than those two to even attempt to close the PCS gap. (You see who held up by PCS now? )

But I don't find it necessarily wrong, since presentation skill from those two were far better than Li.

Same logic goes with jumping ability for Asada vs Yuna/or if consistent, Kostner. Asada needs to attempt harder tech layout to close the gap between their jumping techniques represented by GOE. i.e. Even if Asada nails her jumps, she will not get same level of GOE in 3Lz, 3F, 3T within those two, rightfully so.

I beg to differ. With any rule changes it is should always be controversial. There are those who lose out, and those who gain considerable advantages. While it can always be justified why such for the rule change occur in the first place, but it is the totallity of these effects, and the motivation behind of these rule changes should be under greater scrutiny. Timing is everything, the effect on the major stake holders of the sport holds the clue.

You haven't really explained why you think the old rules were better besides you think the timing of the rule changes hurts Yuna. But taking Yuna out of it for a second, do you like the old rules better, if so, why? Do you think an excellent 2A should be worth more than a 3Lutz; or a mild UR should be worth less than a double? These are issues that many skating fans have brought up in the four years prior to the rule changes. I have read discussions of all of these issues by skating fans long before the rule changes were implemented.

First off, I don't think the changes negatively affect Yuna overall. Secondly, if rules should be changed becuse it's better for the sport, then they should be changed, regardless of who is or is not affected.

Put it this way, rules changes implies there are something wrong with the old rules in the first place, and tomorow's on going changing rules can mean there's something wrong with today's rules. However in reality, it doesn't make better skating, it can however manipulate the favourable outcome of the potentikal winners.

So are you against rule changes then? Do you not think it's necessary for the sport to reevaluate its rules occasionally and try to improve things that aren't working that well? I think so.

Did you also disagree with the timing of ISU's 2007 rule change making flutz penalties mandatory? I'm sure that caught some newly debuted skaters like Mao by surprise, because during their entire lives, the judging under both CoP and 6.0 basically did not care about proper edge technique. Look at all the Olympic champions from Lipinski (flutzing) to Hughes (flutzing) to Arakawa (lipping) that all had edge problems. Cohen also had a flutz and was not penalized at all for it in 2006. Then, suddenly in 2007, new skaters like Mao are told they will be penalized for flutzing when it is already too late to change their technique. But the fact is, regardless of who the rule change affected, the change was still good for the sport as a whole. People have been annoyed with flutzing for a long time, and it is fair to reward skaters that do have proper edge technique.

It is possible that, PCS-wise, I am more enamored of a perfect Mao program than the judges are. To me, the floating like a butterfly thing is front and center.

I'm right there with you, Math! Mao brings something to skating that is unmatched by anyone else. Besides that airborne quality, there's her carriage and the way she moves her arms. Which is why I always hope that this hypothetical clean performance does indeed come to pass one day. And since Mao is clearly someone who doesn't give up, no matter what, I feel there's always a possibility.

But unlike Russian ladies, Yuna actually has some artistry, and has good-quality jumps. You're saying she should be scored similar to some Russian girls who has tiny jumps and basically are close to looking like robots when they're skating.

Russian ladies have much superior artisty than Yuna's robotic skating with same mimic no matter what music is playing. They also have good-quality jumps and some of them like Sotnikova are much better spinners.

Originally Posted by Melon

How dumb you are.
...
I don't get your logic at all.

You can use your own words in italics as my reply.

Originally Posted by bara1968

1. I already provided how Yuna can maximize her TES score and then non of her competitors would be able to win over her etc, long time ago.

2. In last post, I already gave two possible TES score potential for Asada beating Yuna's in the both cases that she goes clean with a) what she did in worlds No need to repeat.

3. You purposedly ignored that Yuna is doing 3Lz+3T, 3Lz, 3F in her LP. No point to make comparison within her easier combo to others.

4. Speaking of which, some skaters need to do harder jump layout to beat some other skaters with superior techniques/ or presentation skill.

Since judging by basevalue is far from being objective in that it does not reflect how skaters actually executed tech elements at all, I will use TES.

5. But Zijun Li placed 4th in LP. Why? Because of PCS gap between her and those two were rather HUGE : -10.28 with Asada, -12.56 with Kostner.

(You see who held up by PCS now? )

1. So the hypothetical Yuna will win over anyone hypothetical. Gotcha.

2. Indeed no need to repeat, especially since before I did the same myself. With Mao's layout at Worlds-2013 her mistakes cost her about 10 points. So, even if she hadn't made them, she wouldn't have been able to reach Yuna's inflated score.

3. I didn't. None of the jumps you mentioned didn't change the fact she was 4th in BV, mainly thanks to her two easier combos.

4. Hypothetically speaking, yes. But here we are talking about the certain skaters. Yuna's techniques and especially presentation skills are not superior at all, neither to Caro nor Mao. And not to them only.

Moreover, claiming that TES is always more objective than BV is funny. PChan got the world records in SP at the recent Worlds for standstill landings practically for all jumps and "objective" +3 GOE for that.

5. .. and even HUGER with Kim: -15.48. Her GOE gap with Yuna was -7.7. Obviously for that "only one mistake(edge call in 3Lz) in brilliant 7 triple program(3F+3T, 2A+3T etc.)" as you put it, compared to 6-triple prog of Kim.
(I see. Yuna was help up by PCS and GOE. Thanks for pointing that out. )

Originally Posted by Mathman

The reason that I believe your analysis of Mao's program is incomplete is that it did not take into account the increase in PCSs that automatically follows a clean and commanding performance. Mao floats like a butterfly (PCS);

I know! I mean about butterfly Mao. But infortunately I can't share your optimism regarding her PCS increasing if she skates clean, when Yuna is competing. Because there is no history to back or/and prove this claim. Mao was clean in SP at Oly, she was still lower in PCS. She was almost clean in FS at Worlds-2010 (got one <), she was still lower in PCS than Yuna with a fall and a miss of one element. Moreover, at the same event in SP where Kim was 7th with crappy skating, she was still second in PCS losing just barely (30.96/30.28).

I know! I mean about butterfly Mao. But infortunately I can't share your optimism regarding her PCS increasing if she skates clean, when Yuna is competing. Because there is no history to back or/and prove this claim. Mao was clean in SP at Oly, she was still lower in PCS. She was almost clean in FS at Worlds-2010 (got one <), she was still lower in PCS than Yuna with a fall and a miss of one element. Moreover, at the same event in SP where Kim was 7th with crappy skating, she was still second in PCS losing just barely (30.96/30.28).

I think you can guess easily if u are figure skating fan, that competition was held right after olympic which kim had big winning, kim had advantage. So, It is not fair / proper example to guess if asada and kim go clean, would Asada surpass kim in pcs.

You haven't really explained why you think the old rules were better besides you think the timing of the rule changes hurts Yuna. But taking Yuna out of it for a second, do you like the old rules better, if so, why? Do you think an excellent 2A should be worth more than a 3Lutz; or a mild UR should be worth less than a double? These are issues that many skating fans have brought up in the four years prior to the rule changes. I have read discussions of all of these issues by skating fans long before the rule changes were implemented.

I am not disagreeing about whether there should be rule changes and in fact acknowledge there are pros and cons to every rules changes 'for the good of the sport'. However I am also politically sensitive and shrewed enough to read between the lines, to know well enough it is entirely down to ISU's administration and their perogative of the time. TIMING and the IMPLICATION are the keys. All changes in the rules are not equal, just as there are some legitimate rules changes for the good of the sport, but there are also changes due to what is good for ISU and its confederates.

It is not so unlike how political party campaigns runs for the 'interest' of the people. There are always positive issues like: improve health services, improve social benefits, cut taxes for the 'general good of the people', reduce unemployment rates, reduce crime etc but while the causes themselves sound good, it is just as much about satisfying political party's sponsor's interests and agendas. Why do you think bankers, the big conglomerates and the super rich continues to be under taxed? What do lobbyist do all day in Washington while getting paid considerably for their 'persuasion'?

Hence goes back to the questions I pose to you, do you think these particular set of changes would have happened post Olympics in exact timeline and specific categories regardless of whether a Mao and Yuna are competing today? The evidence is in the sum of its effect and the timing. Do they result in better skating? Up the technical content? etc.. Things are not always in black and white. Why do you think people say it helps to come from a strong skating federation, and admire those who won despite a weak federation like Yuna, Denis and Javier?

To further answer your question, actually the flutz issues is indeed good for the sport and is not solely changed to benefit Yuna, or hurt Mao - unlike many of the Mao rules today which is there solely to benefit Mao. However, with that one Flutz rule changes, ISU practically had JSF at their door to win favours with resources so they are in a good influential place to sway their own set of rules and agendas, which they got their way as seen in recent years. The influence is visible in many instances such as rule changes passed before it even went to be assessed or debated. How about Cinquanta letter to pressure Yuna to do 4CCs in Korea where Mao is also competing is unprecedented. His apparent distain and disregard for Korea as possibility venue after the Japanese Tsunami disaster as possible alternative veues shows clear biases he doesn't even bother to hide. He could have said, we will consider or discuss all possible options and venues until we found one that will be agree by all, he didn't.

As a sporting governing body that is suppose to govern the sport with integrity and impartiality, has it really achieved these with all these 'incidents' and strategic rule changes? While any good organisation can have bad apples, any bad organisation can have its own heroes, but ISU is an organisation that is currently headed by someone who proved to be unprincipled and obtuse as its leader. He even prolong his own reign by changing the rules he suppose to be govern and uphold, or is the correct term more like 'abuse' of these privileges.

It is possible that, PCS-wise, I am more enamored of a perfect Mao program than the judges are.

Speaking about judges, here is a video comparing the number of crossovers in FS at WC (you will need an account to watch, take one second to open the one if you don't have any): http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21174372 Yuna- 32, Caro-18, Kanako-16, Mao-7. Yet, the PCS score for transitions is Yuna- 8.89, Caro- 8.46, Mao- 8.21 . Excellent example of the currupted judging system and that yunafans have nothing on topic to say except how dumb everyone else is.

4. Hypothetically speaking, yes. But here we are talking about the certain skaters. Yuna's techniques and especially presentation skills are not superior at all, neither to Caro nor Mao. And not to them only.

Moreover, claiming that TES is always more objective than BV is funny. PChan got the world records in SP at the recent Worlds for standstill landings practically for all jumps and "objective" +3 GOE for that.

Yuna's jumps are clearly superior to Mao's-she doesn't flutz, and she actually rotates her second triple.

And according to you, since BV is the only thing objective about judging today, skaters shouldn't even be penalized for flutz/lip. Since skaters should be judged by their BVs, I'm surprised that none of the top skaters claim that they're going to do 4As next season.

5. .. and even HUGER with Kim: -15.48. Her GOE gap with Yuna was -7.7. Obviously for that "only one mistake(edge call in 3Lz) in brilliant 7 triple program(3F+3T, 2A+3T etc.)" as you put it, compared to 6-triple prog of Kim.
(I see. Yuna was help up by PCS and GOE. Thanks for pointing that out. )

They both landed total of 8 triples-and as for Mao, that's including two-footed, under-rotated triples which Yuna did not have.

I know! I mean about butterfly Mao. But infortunately I can't share your optimism regarding her PCS increasing if she skates clean, when Yuna is competing. Because there is no history to back or/and prove this claim. Mao was clean in SP at Oly, she was still lower in PCS. She was almost clean in FS at Worlds-2010 (got one <), she was still lower in PCS than Yuna with a fall and a miss of one element. Moreover, at the same event in SP where Kim was 7th with crappy skating, she was still second in PCS losing just barely (30.96/30.28).

Oh yes, Mao deserved to have higher PCS than Yuna who clearly had higher BV and better program

And at 2013 Worlds, Caro had a fall and still received higher PCS than Yuna who didn't Look who's between Yuna and Mao-Caro, whose 3T+3T from SP was so good that technical panel didn't give an UR call to her second 3T, and some judges decided not to give -3 for a jump with a fall.

I think you can guess easily if u are figure skating fan, that competition was held right after olympic which kim had big winning, kim had advantage. So, It is not fair / proper example to guess if asada and kim go clean, would Asada surpass kim in pcs.

so basically what your saying is because Kim won with a big margin at the olympics, it's alright to overscore her at another competition with a different skate hmm, I really find it hard to find any logic in that, how can that be used as a justification

And according to you, since BV is the only thing objective about judging today

It's not according to me. It's according to some yunafans like yourself cheat to twist people's words they way they wish, the manner of that fandom that I got bored with long time ago. I didn't say that BV is the only thing objective. Sometimes GOE and even PCS can be used more or less objectively, depends on the event, the judges's pannel and what is on the table. I said BV is more objective than GOE and PCS because in BV judges have much lesser space to manipulate. But even in BV they do have some space though, like ur calls and wrong levels.

I guess you need to see protocols again to see number of triples that Yuna and Mao landed.
They both landed total of 8 triples.

I don't need to. I think you do. As well as to read the post well before to push the reply button. The conversation between me and another poster you were replying to was about FS. There Yuna landed 6 triples. As for the total number of triples, it's not 8 either as you claim. Yuna landed 3 in SP and 6 in FS. 3+6 doesn't make 8. For Mao it's 2 and 7 accordingly. 2+7 doesn't make 8 either.

Oh yes, Mao deserved to have higher PCS than Yuna who clearly had higher BV and better program

Yuna didn't have higher BV, or better prog, in FS . She was 4th in BV after Mao, Li and Gold. She also did 4.5 more crossovers than Mao (32 vs. 7) and yet she got higher score for transitions: 8.89 vs. 8.21. For example.