Support the Bloomberg Giveaway!

This is a discussion on Support the Bloomberg Giveaway! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,259726,00.html
MIDLOTHIAN, Va. — Amid the Confederate flags, anti-Yankee bumper stickers and Civil War relics on display at Bob Moates Sport Shop, a counterattack against ...

Support the Bloomberg Giveaway!

MIDLOTHIAN, Va. — Amid the Confederate flags, anti-Yankee bumper stickers and Civil War relics on display at Bob Moates Sport Shop, a counterattack against the North is under way.

"Ask about the Bloomberg Gun GiveAway" reads a sign taped to the gun shop's register, beckoning customers to enter the drawing named for New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, whose federal lawsuits against gun dealers in five states have drawn the wrath of Virginia's gun enthusiasts.

Bloomberg says the dealers holding the contest are sick. The dealers call Bloomberg names that aren't fit to print.

"The truth is, if Bloomberg hadn't picked on Virginia, we wouldn't have gotten involved. But he made the mistake of stepping into Virginia with this," said Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League and mastermind of the giveaway, which has boosted business for the two participating store owners.

The Republican mayor has sued 27 out-of-state gun dealers, alleging they sold firearms illegally to undercover private investigators conducting a sting for New York. City officials say the dealers have supplied hundreds of weapons used in New York City crimes. The lawsuits, which name dealers in Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia, ask the court to require monitoring of the shops' sales.

(Story continues below)

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Investigators tried to make "straw purchases," in which one person fills out the legal forms and buys a gun for someone else. The practice is prohibited by federal law and is typically used by those who cannot legally own firearms, such as convicted felons.

Nine dealers, including two in Virginia, have settled with the city, agreeing to be monitored by a court-appointed special master. The owners of two Virginia stores being sued said they were forced to close because of crushing legal fees.

But in January, two other store owners began fighting back with the gun giveaway.

Through March 31, customers who spend $100 at either of Bob Moates' stores or at Old Dominion Guns and Tackle in Danville are eligible to win a handgun or a rifle, courtesy of the Defense League. The drawing will be held April 19.

Van Cleave said he came up with the idea as a way to boost sales at the stores, which have shelled out thousands in legal fees.

The contest has only further agitated Bloomberg, who has made gun control a top priority in his second term.

"These are sick people," Bloomberg said in January at the Mayors Against Illegal Guns summit in Washington. "And if they think that this is funny, I don't think that the parents or the spouses or the children of those that get killed with illegal guns would find that very entertaining."

Dave Hancock, who has worked at Bob Moates Sport Shop for 25 years, said of the mayor: "I think he's an idiot."

Bloomberg and others say the lawsuits are aimed at reducing the flow of illegal guns into New York. Mayoral spokesman Jason Post said police statistics show that 90 percent of the guns used in crimes in New York City come from out of state.

But Hancock and other Virginia gun-rights advocates say the lawsuits are nothing more than a publicity stunt and a scheme to drive gun dealers out of business.

Richard Hill, manager of Bob Moates Sport Shop, called the lawsuits a "nice attempt by a politician just trying to get to the White House" and said his store always follows the law.

"The best way to get guns off the street and criminals off the street is to lock 'em up," Hill said. "They seem to want to pick on an old stereotype: It's so easy to get a gun in Virginia and run it up to New York. When quite honestly, you can break into a house anywhere and get anything you like."

Bloomberg's face is on a poster taped to a shotgun rack at Bob Moates, under the words "Here are our worst enemy." Sarah Brady of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence and Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle are also pictured, though Bloomberg's face is circled in bright pink highlighter.

The winner will receive a Para-Ordnance handgun worth around $900.

Longtime customer Scott Cashion, 31, of Chesterfield, said he has earned six or seven tickets — and may end up with more to get back at Bloomberg.

"I bought some kind of for spite," he said while looking over a stack of ammunition. "What he's doing is wrong."

The winner of the contest at Old Dominion Guns and Tackle will get a Browning Varmint Stalker rifle, also worth about $900.

"I've been in business 27 years and I've probably had the best February I've ever had," store owner Dennis Alverson said. "Nobody's got a great likeness for Bloomberg in this area."

So this guy sold weapons at his store via a straw man purchase to under cover investigators as per an investigation to be sure stores are within compliance and following the law. He failed the test and was taken to task for it and decided to contest as much in courts, whihc totally is his right to do. As such to support his efforts he's having this 'Bloomberg Giveaway' to drum up business as if Bloomberg is the bad guy because he's trying to close the door on illegally purchased weapons including those purchased via straw man transactions such as what this guy was found to be supporting.

So Bloomberg is the jerk and this guy, the criminal, is a winner and making profit as a result?! :huh:
Why would or should I suppot a store that has supported flouting a federal law making life harder overall for the rest of us, and law abiding gun shops, for his own means & profit and then further support him by buying into his raffle toward funding his defense fund? That just makes no sense to me regardless of who is holding his feet to the fire be it Bloomberg, Brady, or Uncle Sam.

Dude did wrong and did so knowingly.
Am I'm reading this story wrongly?...

When they talk about investigators they mean Bloomburg Croonies!!!
These "investigators" where not acting with any official agency that I know of. As in they where not ATF and they tried to conduct straw purchases. Now there are 2 sides to every story, however, straw purchase dosn't mean that the dealer knows that it happened!!! Straw purchasers are the buyers. Thats why they call it a straw purchase. Therefore, Bloomburgs people in NY committed a crime in itself by straw purchasing a gun from these places. In Va (correct me if I'm wrong) commit a felony with a gun (Automatic 5 years in jail). Why aren't these "investigators"=Criminals in prison and why has bloomburg been deemed the final receipient of the straw purchase. Who where they buying them for? An out of state mayor. NY you have to through a lengthy process to get a firearm, and guns are banned in NYC. By not transfering them through an FFL did Bloomburg break violate NY Law? So who committed the Crime?

Originally Posted by Janq

I'm confused...

So this guy sold weapons at his store via a straw man purchase to under cover investigators as per an investigation to be sure stores are within compliance and following the law. He failed the test and was taken to task for it and decided to contest as much in courts, whihc totally is his right to do. As such to support his efforts he's having this 'Bloomberg Giveaway' to drum up business as if Bloomberg is the bad guy because he's trying to close the door on illegally purchased weapons including those purchased via straw man transactions such as what this guy was found to be supporting.

So Bloomberg is the jerk and this guy, the criminal, is a winner and making profit as a result?! :huh:
Why would or should I suppot a store that has supported flouting a federal law making life harder overall for the rest of us, and law abiding gun shops, for his own means & profit and then further support him by buying into his raffle toward funding his defense fund? That just makes no sense to me regardless of who is holding his feet to the fire be it Bloomberg, Brady, or Uncle Sam.

Dude did wrong and did so knowingly.
Am I'm reading this story wrongly?...

Being curious as I had not prior heard of this investigation I ran a query using keywords 'ny straw purchase investigators bloomberg' and the third result was a press release toward this from the mayors office.

15 Gun Dealers in Five States Are Named in Federal Lawsuit Following Sting Operation

Lawsuit Follows Mayor Bloomberg’s State of the City Commitment to Cross State Borders To Fight the Flow of Illegal Guns into the City

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, joined by Corporation Counsel Michael A. Cardozo, Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly and Criminal Justice Coordinator John Feinblatt, today announced that New York City has filed a lawsuit in the Federal District Court for the Eastern District of New York against 15 gun dealers identified as selling firearms in violation of federal law. The lawsuit seeks injunctive relief intended to halt the dealers’ illegal practices, and to recover money damages. The 15 gun dealers named in the lawsuit are located in five states – Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia – and were targeted because of the large number of guns that have been traced back to them following crimes committed in New York City. Based only on the incomplete data available to the City, more than 500 crime guns recovered by the New York City Police Department have been traced to these 15 gun dealers between 1994 and 2001. In his January State of the City speech, Mayor Bloomberg pledged to target dealers who sell guns illegally and hold them accountable for their actions...

...Over the past six weeks, investigators from the James Mintz Group, a private investigative firm employed by the City, traveled to five states to confirm what gun trace data had already shown probable – that these gun dealers were violating federal laws governing firearms sales. The investigators, in teams of two, entered gun stores and followed a scenario commonly known as “straw purchasing” – where one individual makes all of the inquiries into purchasing the gun, and then the other individual, completely uninvolved in the sale process, fills out the required federal forms to pass the background check. Federal law prohibits licensed dealers from selling firearms to individuals when they have a reasonable belief that the firearm being sold is not for the person who purports to be the purchaser. A 2002 U.S. Department of Justice publication describes “straw purchasing” as follows:

“Straw purchases are one of the most frequent methods used to divert firearms out of lawful commerce, where they are a heavily regulated commodity, and onto the street, where they are available to anyone. Convicted felons will simply use a friend, a family member or a girlfriend to buy a gun for them. The felon provides the money for the gun, selects the gun, and directs the purchase. The straw purchaser just fills out all the required paperwork, posing as the buyer.”

All 15 dealers named in the suit sold a gun to a team of undercover investigators, who wore hidden cameras during their sting operations. Of the stores that they visited, one-in-three dealers refused the sale, confirming the fact that dealers know and understand the law. Even in the face of obvious “red lights” that should have immediately ended the discussion between dealer and customer, including that the straw purchaser did not participate in the transaction until the time came to fill out the federal forms and did not pay for the gun, two-thirds of the targeted dealers sold to the straw purchaser.

The city hired professional investigators and they under the auspices of the city of New York first did investigative work to track and trace what stores in various states they suspect might be illegal purchase method firearm suppliers. They then went directly to those stores and as an end result 15 of them did in fact actively and knowingly break the Federal law upon testing as per the city's successful attempts via it's agents who were the hired investigators. The store owners/personnel did know what was going on at point of sale and the investigators actions were filmed at that for purpose of documentation.

I'm no fan of Bloomberg or anything, to be honest I don't give a care for NYC at all...I don't like that place in general, and similarly I'm no fan of folks who make my life hard or harder either and these shops as noted and documented have done just that by supporting unlawful straw man purchases of firearms.

Maybe someone can clarify for me, but how can the gun dealers know if it's a straw purchase? As long as the form is filled out correctly how can they know that someone is going to give the firearm to another individual?

"The city hired professional investigators and they under the auspices of the city of New York first did investigative work to track and trace what stores in various states they suspect might be illegal purchase method firearm suppliers."

This in itself from what I understand is against the law. Accross State Lines that is Federal Jurisdiction. That would be like me breaking the law but that is okay because your currently breaking the law or what if it was Entrapment?

Entrapment means putting the ciminal intent into the mind of the individual.

That article also came from a NY City press release. I don't believe everything I hear from their papers.

I "DO Not support STRAW PURCHASES by any means" But I do believe in the law. If they are breaking the law the ATF or agency needs to do there job. They should not be sued out of existance based on a report from a Mayor who by himself is also not obeying the law.

Originally Posted by Janq

Rob,

Being curious as I had not prior heard of this investigation I ran a query using keywords 'ny straw purchase investigators bloomberg' and the third result was a press release toward this from the mayors office.

Below is that press release in part as relevant to this discussion...

This seems to me to be pretty straight forward.

The city hired professional investigators and they under the auspices of the city of New York first did investigative work to track and trace what stores in various states they suspect might be illegal purchase method firearm suppliers. They then went directly to those stores and as an end result 15 of them did in fact actively and knowingly break the Federal law upon testing as per the city's successful attempts via it's agents who were the hired investigators. The store owners/personnel did know what was going on at point of sale and the investigators actions were filmed at that for purpose of documentation.

I'm no fan of Bloomberg or anything, to be honest I don't give a care for NYC at all...I don't like that place in general, and similarly I'm no fan of folks who make my life hard or harder either and these shops as noted and documented have done just that by supporting unlawful straw man purchases of firearms.

The answer to your question in general toward the law and specific toward what the NYC investigators did is detailed in my quoted excerpt of the press release.

"..The investigators, in teams of two, entered gun stores and followed a scenario commonly known as “straw purchasing” – where one individual makes all of the inquiries into purchasing the gun, and then the other individual, completely uninvolved in the sale process, fills out the required federal forms to pass the background check. Federal law prohibits licensed dealers from selling firearms to individuals when they have a reasonable belief that the firearm being sold is not for the person who purports to be the purchaser..."

The press release explains in detail what occurred, their 'traceing' method, means of how they investigated the store, and the letter as well as spirit of the Federal law.

Entrapment is not relevant here as the store owners/employees always had the option to not affect the sale, as did those others 'traced' and investigated who did not close the sale and thus followed the law.
Your definition of entrapment differs from what I understand it to be, but then I'm not a LEO or criminal justice major either so I could be wrong here...and thus why I ask questions and said to start I'm confused.

NYC doing an investigation across state lines I'm not so sure that is unlawful either, or even atypical.
It's regularly in the news toward states doing investigations toward all manner of crimes that take them across bordering and others state lines for everything from drugs and gang crime to tracking of illegal cigarette sales without paying the tax stamps (VA was doing just this back in ~'00 going outward to other states including IIRC NYC as per a then article in the Post about the effort), child porn sellers/buyers, as well as even state game police investigating illegal transport or trade of animals live or dead across state lines.
At worst I'm thnking that NYC might be guilty of not keying in others as a professional courtesy that they were running such an investigation, be it contacting the FBI, BATF, or even the state police of the states where the stores were located & investigated.
But I don't know that courtesy has 'compelled' included within it's definition or spirit as relative to this sort of activity.

Hopefully some LEOs or working criminal justice types will chime in with clarification.
Whether or not NYC made a gaffe in this investigation effort by not alerting other agencies, as a courtesy, matters not in my mind as that doesn't change the fact that the stores were in fact allowing strawman purchases even before the NYC investigators actually visited them which is how they were tracked in the first place. This specific store owner has the right to defnd himself and I've got not quarrel there, but I wouldn't make him out as some sort of hero who's being picked on by govt. either. He's in a pickle for good reason.

I by no means am a LEO or a Lawyer but I did take a highspeed low drag 1 year of criminal justice HORAH... excuse me I mean lowspeed High drag. My professor in my ethics of crimimal justice class said that Entrapment is putting the crime in the mind of the individual to commit a crime. Now this was 1999 when I took this class. Basically, IIRC that would be like Me coming up to you with 1,000 dollars and saying Janq heres a 1,000 dollars for some crack. I have no idea that you have ever sold crack, but you now have 1,000 dollars so your going to go out and find some crack to sell to me.

Now is that similiar to what happened here "Well we have a press release from a New York Paper" I think also the ATF did come out and say what Mayor Bloomberg did was in violation of the Law and they told him to cease and desist and that any further "Investigative work" taken by his own self could result in something else. Now I'm not 100&#37; sure if thats 100% right but hopefully somebody can clarify the case and BATF's take on this whole thing.

Originally Posted by Janq

Rob,

Entrapment is not relevant here as the store owners/employees always had the option to not affect the sale, as did those others 'traced' and investigated who did not close the sale and thus followed the law.
Your definition of entrapment differs from what I understand it to be, but then I'm not a LEO or criminal justice major either so I could be wrong here...and thus why I ask questions and said to start I'm confused.

NYC doing an investigation across state lines I'm not so sure that is unlawful either, or even atypical.
It's regularly in the news toward states doing investigations toward all manner of crimes that take them across bordering and others state lines for everything from drugs and gang crime to tracking of illegal cigarette sales without paying the tax stamps (VA was doing just this back in ~'00 going outward to other states including IIRC NYC as per a then article in the Post about the effort), child porn sellers/buyers, as well as even state game police investigating illegal transport or trade of animals live or dead across state lines.
At worst I'm thnking that NYC might be guilty of not keying in others as a professional courtesy that they were running such an investigation, be it contacting the FBI, BATF, or even the state police of the state where the stores were located. But I don't know if courtesy has compelled included within it's definition or spirit as relative to this sort of activity.

Hopefully some LEOs or working criminal justice types will chime in with clarification.

The answer to your question in general toward the law and specific toward what the NYC investigators did is detailed in my quoted excerpt of the press release.

"..The investigators, in teams of two, entered gun stores and followed a scenario commonly known as “straw purchasing” – where one individual makes all of the inquiries into purchasing the gun, and then the other individual, completely uninvolved in the sale process, fills out the required federal forms to pass the background check. Federal law prohibits licensed dealers from selling firearms to individuals when they have a reasonable belief that the firearm being sold is not for the person who purports to be the purchaser..."

The press release explains in detail what occurred, their 'traceing' method, means of how they investigated the store, and the letter as well as spirit of the Federal law.

- Janq

Janq

One thing frim oersonal expreience is that this is not ALWAYS a Straw purchase, Over Chirstmas we had an LEO friend contact the gun shop we (he, and my mother) asked all of the questions on the gun and my mother paid for it. All my father did was fill out the paper work on HIS new G27 christmas present. All he knew was he was not allowed to talk or touch just write.

To me this could, not being there I do not know, be somewhat of the same senerio with the only possible exception being that the LEO gun shop knew the Dept armor who took us and was doing it as a favor for him.

“Straw purchases are one of the most frequent methods used to divert firearms out of lawful commerce, where they are a heavily regulated commodity, and onto the street, where they are available to anyone. Convicted felons will simply use a friend, a family member or a girlfriend to buy a gun for them. The felon provides the money for the gun, selects the gun, and directs the purchase. The straw purchaser just fills out all the required paperwork, posing as the buyer.”

Also as a thought any parent that purchases a firearm for their child (not old enough) is completing a straw purchase ar'nt they? Does that mean that if I take my 17yo sister to a gun shop to get her a new firearm they should not sell it to me? I am legally able to purchase that firearm even if I do let her ask all of the questions and pick the one she wants. Any Parents out there do this for their children?

I think that sceanrio is different than a strawman purchase.
In that case the buyer and intended recipient fills out all the paperwork toward ownership which is proper and his mother/brother/wife/whoever hands over cash/check/credit card to make payment against the procurement as a gift. That is the exact opposite of the definition of a strawman purchase and is completely legal.

A 2002 U.S. Department of Justice publication describes “straw purchasing” as follows:

“Straw purchases are one of the most frequent methods used to divert firearms out of lawful commerce, where they are a heavily regulated commodity, and onto the street, where they are available to anyone. Convicted felons will simply use a friend, a family member or a girlfriend to buy a gun for them. The felon provides the money for the gun, selects the gun, and directs the purchase. The straw purchaser just fills out all the required paperwork, posing as the buyer.”

Janq, I think you have this all wrong. At Bloomberg's behest, his investigators engaged in illegal acts (they do NOT have federal legal investigative powers) to try to catch others in illegal acts.

Whether they did actually get these dealers to make factually illegal sales is not something I know for sure. I have not seen the recordings made on the hidden cameras -- have you? I do not know if the straw purchasers made clear to the dealers that these were in fact straw purchases. Do you? But you're ready to believe a Bloomberg press release?!

If these dealers really had broken the law, I have to wonder why they are being sued civilly, rather than prosecuted criminally, and facing decades in jail as a result. When you allege that someone has broken an important law, as Bloomberg has, you don't go suing them in civil court -- you try to get them prosecuted in criminal court. So right there, this whole thing stinks.

Bloomberg suborned criminal acts -- straw purchases made by people not authorized to do them in the course of an investigation of dealer practices. Bloomberg's cronies were engaging in "freelance" criminal investigations during which they themselves had to commit crimes. They did not have any special dispensation to do so; they should be facing charges of straw purchases of firearms.

Think about it: would it be legal for you to purchase the services of a prostitute just so you could get her on tape and sue her for breaking the law? Of course not, even if it was your noble goal to clean up your neighborhood. Would it be legal for you to buy drugs from a guy on the corner just so you could get him on tape and sue him for breaking the law? Of course not, once again. Not even if you turned the tapes over to the police so these people could be prosecuted criminally let alone sued civilly.