Rather than burden JerryMac’s thread on his NY style pizza with my experiments, I decided to start this thread. Basically, what I was trying to achieve most recently is a 16” version of a JerryMac NY style pizza. In the course of doing so, I made a few changes to the dough recipe that Jerry posted at the thread he started at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0.html.

The starting point for my latest effort was the baker’s percent dough formulation that I posted at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg55496.html#msg55496. In addition to scaling that recipe up to 16”, I made a few other changes. First, I used a hydration of 68%. That number was chosen because Jerry had indicated that the hydration for his dough is in the high 60s. Second, I used a thickness factor that was between the two values used by Jerry in making 13” and 14” pizzas. The thickness factor I used was 0.096738. Third, I decided to use a more classical method of making the poolish in which I used equal weights of flour and water, yielding a hydration of 100%. As in Jerry’s recipe, I used all of the formula water in the poolish. Fourth, I used honey instead of barley malt syrup, mainly because honey is easier for most people to find. As before, the flour used was the King Arthur bread flour. To improve its hydration, I sifted it. As discussed below, I also used the whisk attachment of my KitchenAid stand mixer to further improve the hydration of the flour used in the poolish. Fifth, I used a bowl residue compensation of 2.6% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. That value turned out to be almost perfect. Finally, I dressed the pizza on a 16” pizza screen and baked the pizza using a combination of the screen and my pizza stone. In preparation for making the pizza, I had preheated the oven and the stone for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F.

Note: the nominal thickness factor used in the tool is 0.096738; bowl residue compensation is 2.6%; the water was tap water at 68 degrees F

To prepare the poolish, I started by combining all of the flour (sifted) with all of the IDY. I then put all of the formula water, 7.72 oz., into the mixer bowl of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer. Using the whisk attachment at stir speed, I then gradually added 7.72 ounces of the flour/IDY to the water in the mixer bowl. When all of the flour was incorporated into the water, I removed the whisk attachment. To get the poolish that stuck to the whisk attachment off of the attachment, I simply tilted the mixer head (unlocked) back slightly while using the stir speed and then the 2 speed. That caused the poolish to spin off of the whisk attachment into the mixer bowl. The mixer bowl was then covered, and the poolish was allowed to preferment for 5 hours at a room temperature of about 67 degrees F. (Note: Technically, the poolish can be used a reasonable period of time after the poolish reaches the "break point". The break point is the point at which the poolish peaks and starts to recede, or collapse. All else being equal, the time that it takes to reach the break point will depend on the temperature, usually room temperature, at which the poolish preferments.)

At the end of the 5-hour preferment period, I added the honey, salt and the remaining flour/IDY to the poolish in the mixer bowl. Using the C-hook of my mixer, the ingredients were mixed initially at stir speed. Once all of the ingredients were fully combined, they were kneaded for about another 3 1/2 minutes at speed 2. The dough was then removed from the mixer bowl and placed on a lightly floured work surface, hand kneaded for about a minute, and shaped into a round ball. The dough was then put into a covered oiled container (a plastic Rubbermaid storage container) and allowed to ferment for 1 ½ hours. At the end of that time, the dough was punched down, reshaped, and allowed to proof for another 1 ½ hours (also in the covered Rubbermaid storage container). All of the times involved (preferment time and rise and proof times) were as generally recited by JerryMac.

As I expected, and as I had been forewarned by Jerry, the proofed dough was highly hydrated and very extensible. Using just enough bench flour to coat the dough skin as I initially shaped and stretched it out to about 12”, I was able to lift the skin and to further stretch it out to about 16”. This was the trickiest part of the entire dough handling exercise. However, I was able to drape the skin over my forearms and deposit it onto the 16” pizza screen. To be sure that the skin wouldn’t stick to the screen, I had lightly pre-sprayed the screen with a canola oil spray.

The pizza was dressed in a buffalo chicken style, using the same ingredients as described in Reply 644 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg55299.html#msg55299. The pizza was baked initially on the screen on the topmost oven rack position of my oven until the rim of the dough had risen and the cheeses were starting to bubble, about 4 minutes. I then shifted the pizza off of the screen (which I then removed from the oven) onto the pre-heated pizza stone (on the lowest oven rack position). The pizza baked on the stone for about 2 minutes, and once the bottom crust turned brown, I moved the pizza back to the topmost oven rack position for about another minute to achieve additional top crust browning.

The photos below show the finished pizza. The pizza was excellent. It had very good oven spring, with a large, chewy rim and a soft, airy crumb. There was also good crust coloration and flavor. I would say that the pizza overall was one of the best same-day pizzas I have ever made. The bottom crust of the pizza was not as crispy as I might have achieved had the pizza been baked entirely on my stone, but I expected that result. That would not have been an option in my case in any event, since my pizza stone cannot accommodate a pizza size greater than 14”. So, I have become accustomed to the slightly less crispy crusts when using a pizza screen.

For those who may be interested in using volume measurements for the flour in the dough formulation I used, I used November’s Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to do the conversions of the weights of flour to volumes. The 7.72 oz. of flour used in the poolish converts to 1 c. + 1/2 c. + 1/4 c. + a bit more than 1 1/8 t. The remaining flour, 3.64 oz. (11.36 oz. – 7.72 oz. = 3.64 oz.), added to the poolish as part of the final mix converts to 1/2 c. + 1/3 c. + about 1/3 t. The 7.72 oz. of water is between 7/8 and 1 c. in a standard Pyrex measuring cup (viewed at eye level on a flat surface). To be sure that the correct amount of flour is measured out volumetrically, one should stir the flour in its container, lift the flour into the measuring cups/spoons using a scoop or kitchen tablespoon, and then level the tops with the flat edge of a standard kitchen knife. Of course, if one chooses to use a different pizza size for purposes of using the expanded dough calculating tool (with the same thickness factor and baker’s percents as recited above), it will be necessary to use November’s tool to get the correct conversions of the weights of flour to volumes. However, the numbers should be pretty straightforward and easy to use since the weights of the poolish flour and water are the same and all of the formula water is used in the poolish.

Thanks GREATLY for the #'s you put to my Pie Maybe it will help some of the Weights, 0/0's and "Formula" people here on the forum I appeal more to the "Drips off the ends of Your Fingers People"

Best of all, I am REALY happy enjoyed the Dough

I don't own a screen, but have done this dough in a perforated pan, just a bit thicker as, I guess you would say, and "American Pie" and it was "Good", but this dough really screams to life when it hits a hot stone

Thanks. My camera and photography skills didn't do the pizza justice. It was really a beautiful pizza.

I hope sometime to use a perforated disk, such as the 16" dark anodized perforated disk from pizzatools.com. I also have a couple of the special "hearth bake" perforated disks from pizzatools.com that are supposed to produce NY style pizzas such as baked in a deck oven (the disks are intended for impingement conveyor ovens). Those disks are also dark anodized disks, in 14" and 16" sizes.

As I noted in my post, the trickiest part was the high extensibility of the dough skin. When I accounted for the water content of the honey, the total effective hydration was just under 69%. That can be a difficult dough to handle unless one has a lot of experience working with very highly-hydrated doughs. My advice to those who are not used to working with highly hydrated doughs is to use a lower water percent in the dough calculating tool, maybe something close to 65%. As long as all of the water is used to make the poolish, along with an equal weight of flour, I think everything should fall into place. Of couse, the dough calculating tool can be used to make any size or number of pizzas of any desired thickness.

I tried this formulation today and it came out great. Going in I changed some things right off so even if I hadn't turned out well, I was going to try it again with your exact specifications. I used corn syrup instead of honey because I'm just not a big honey fan, I had a mix of bread flour and all-purpose flour because I didn't know I was low on bread flour. I also had to modify the rise times because apparently I can't read.

I my oven was at 475 and I cooked it on a screen on the middle rack the entire time.

Anyway, it came out really well taste wise, the only thing it was really missing was that it didn't have quite the airiness of your crust, but I think that was the modified rise time. This is the pizza I'm going to be making for awhile until I'm satisfied with the results.

JerryMac’s recipe lends itself to many possible variations. For example, the other day I decided to modify JerryMac’s dough formulation and methods to use a classic poolish in which I used 80% of the formula water (a typical upper limit for a classical poolish) rather than all of the formula water, and only 1/32 t. of IDY. For those who have a set of “mini” teaspoons, the 1/32 t. measuring spoon is often called a “smidgen”. The temperature of the water used to make the poolish was around 62 degrees F (which is also typical for a classical poolish). An equal weight of flour was used in the poolish to yield a poolish hydration (weight of water divided by the weight of flour) of 100%. While I was at it, I also lowered the formula hydration to 65% to see if that would make the dough easier to handle when shaping and stretching the dough after the final 1 ½ hour proof (the answer turned out to be yes). I used essentially the same dough formulation as earlier posted but for a 14” dough ball rather than a 16” dough ball.

The poolish was allowed to ferment at room temperature (around 73 degrees F) for 18 hours. Of course, this meant that the dough would not be a same-day dough for most people. For a good part of the preferment time, there were very few signs of activity but for a few small bubbles here and there. But, at around 15 hours, the poolish became very active, with a lot of bubbling and an accompanying expansion in volume (about double). I have shown the appearance of the poolish in the first photo below.

After the 18-hour preferment period, I added the remaining ingredients to the mixer bowl and proceeded as I described earlier in this thread, following the instructions described by JerryMac for his basic recipe. The second photo below shows the finished dough (on my scale). As shown in that photo, the dough is quite damp and sticky.

As a further experiment, I decided to use a dark anodized perforated disk to bake the pizza to see if using the disk would result in a good oven spring, which is always a concern when putting a cold disk (or pan) into the oven. The disk I used was a 14” dark anodized disk from pizzatools.com. The disk is one of the new “hearth” style disks intended to be used in an impingement conveyor oven to achieve a NY style bake as one might achieve using a deck oven. A photo of the disk I used is shown at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg44313.html#msg44313. The pizza was baked at a temperature of around 500-550 degrees F, on the lowest oven rack position. No pizza stone was used in conjunction with the disk. I just waited until the oven got to the desired bake temperature, which took around 12 minutes. This is clearly a plus as the weather warms up and there is little interest in cranking up the oven to preheat a stone for an hour or more. It took about 7 minutes to bake the pizza, or about a minute more than usual (when baking on a stone).

As the additional photos of the finished pizza shown below demonstrate, there was very good oven spring. And the bottom crust had a thin crispy layer that is characteristic of the NY style. The flavors and texture of the crust were comparable to what I achieved for the pizza described earlier in this thread. However, I can’t say that they were so noticeably better that I would recommend using the long poolish preferment in lieu of JerryMac’s same-day methods. However, I was able to demonstrate that a classic poolish method can be used if one so desires and that it is possible to use a disk to bake the pizza and still get a very good oven spring. My recent effort also suggests that there are perhaps countless variations of the poolish method that will produce good result with JerryMac’s basic dough recipe. In some future experiment, I will try using a standard perforated disk (also dark anodized) with the typical pattern of holes.

The last pizza baked entirely on the disk. I did not have to move the pizza around. The first pizza was 16", which is larger than my stone can handle by itself. So, to get the degree of bottom crust bake I was looking for, I moved the pizza off of the screen onto the stone. To keep the bottom from burning and to get a bit more top crust browning, I moved the pizza off of the stone to a higher oven position. It's like a pizzaiolo moving a pizza around in the oven.

Rather than burden JerryMac’s thread on his NY style pizza with my experiments, I decided to start this thread. Basically, what I was trying to achieve most recently is a 16” version of a JerryMac NY style pizza. In the course of doing so, I made a few changes to the dough recipe that Jerry posted at the thread he started at (not allowed to post link)

The starting point for my latest effort was the baker’s percent dough formulation that I posted at Reply 52 at NO LINK. In addition to scaling that recipe up to 16”, I made a few other changes. First, I used a hydration of 68%. That number was chosen because Jerry had indicated that the hydration for his dough is in the high 60s. Second, I used a thickness factor that was between the two values used by Jerry in making 13” and 14” pizzas. The thickness factor I used was 0.096738. Third, I decided to use a more classical method of making the poolish in which I used equal weights of flour and water, yielding a hydration of 100%. As in Jerry’s recipe, I used all of the formula water in the poolish. Fourth, I used honey instead of barley malt syrup, mainly because honey is easier for most people to find. As before, the flour used was the King Arthur bread flour. To improve its hydration, I sifted it. As discussed below, I also used the whisk attachment of my KitchenAid stand mixer to further improve the hydration of the flour used in the poolish. Fifth, I used a bowl residue compensation of 2.6% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. That value turned out to be almost perfect. Finally, I dressed the pizza on a 16” pizza screen and baked the pizza using a combination of the screen and my pizza stone. In preparation for making the pizza, I had preheated the oven and the stone for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F.

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at NO LINK, the dough formulation I ended up with was as follows:

Note: the nominal thickness factor used in the tool is 0.096738; bowl residue compensation is 2.6%; the water was tap water at 68 degrees F

To prepare the poolish, I started by combining all of the flour (sifted) with all of the IDY. I then put all of the formula water, 7.72 oz., into the mixer bowl of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer. Using the whisk attachment at stir speed, I then gradually added an equal amount of the flour, 7.72 oz., to the water in the mixer bowl. When all of the flour was incorporated into the water, I removed the whisk attachment. To get the poolish that stuck to the whisk attachment off of the attachment, I simply tilted the mixer head (unlocked) back slightly while using the stir speed and then the 2 speed. That caused the poolish to spin off of the whisk attachment into the mixer bowl. The mixer bowl was then covered, and the poolish was allowed to preferment for 5 hours at a room temperature of about 67 degrees F.

At the end of the 5-hour preferment period, I added the honey, salt and the remaining flour/IDY (3.64 oz.) to the poolish in the mixer bowl. Using the C-hook of my mixer, the ingredients were mixed initially at stir speed. Once all of the ingredients were fully combined, they were kneaded for about another 3 1/2 minutes at speed 2. The dough was then removed from the mixer bowl and placed on a lightly floured work surface, hand kneaded for about a minute, and shaped into a round ball. The dough was then put into a covered oiled container (a plastic Rubbermaid storage container) and allowed to ferment for 1 ½ hours. At the end of that time, the dough was punched down, reshaped, and allowed to proof for another 1 ½ hours. All of the times involved (preferment time and rise and proof times) were as generally recited by JerryMac.

As I expected, and as I had been forewarned by Jerry, the proofed dough was highly hydrated and very extensible. Using just enough bench flour to coat the dough skin as I initially shaped and stretched it out to about 12”, I was able to lift the skin and to further stretch it out to about 16”. This was the trickiest part of the entire dough handling exercise. However, I was able to drape the skin over my forearms and deposit it onto the 16” pizza screen. To be sure that the skin wouldn’t stick to the screen, I had lightly pre-sprayed the screen with a canola oil spray.

The pizza was dressed in a buffalo chicken style, using the same ingredients as described in Reply 644 at NO LINK. The pizza was baked initially on the screen on the topmost oven rack position of my oven until the rim of the dough had risen and the cheeses were starting to bubble, about 4 minutes. I then shifted the pizza off of the screen (which I then removed from the oven) onto the pre-heated pizza stone (on the lowest oven rack position). The pizza baked on the stone for about 2 minutes, and once the bottom crust turned brown, I moved the pizza back to the topmost oven rack position for about another minute to achieve additional top crust browning.

The photos below show the finished pizza. The pizza was excellent. It had very good oven spring, with a large, chewy rim and a soft, airy crumb. There was also good crust coloration and flavor. I would say that the pizza overall was one of the best same-day pizzas I have ever made. The bottom crust of the pizza was not as crispy as I might have achieved had the pizza been baked entirely on my stone, but I expected that result. That would not have been an option in my case in any event, since my pizza stone cannot accommodate a pizza size greater than 14”. So, I have become accustomed to the slightly less crispy crusts when using a pizza screen.

For those who may be interested in using volume measurements for the flour in the dough formulation I used, I used November’s Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at NO LINK to do the conversions of the weights of flour to volumes. The 7.72 oz. of flour used in the poolish converts to 1 ½ c. + 4 T. + 2 t. The remaining flour, 3.64 oz. (11.36 oz. – 7.72 oz. = 3.64 oz.), added to the poolish as part of the final mix converts to ¾ c. + 1 T. + 2 ¾ t. The 7.72 oz. of water is between 7/8 and 1 c. in a standard Pyrex measuring cup (viewed at eye level on a flat surface). To be sure that the correct amount of flour is measured out volumetrically, one should stir the flour in its container, lift the flour into the measuring cups/spoons using a scoop or kitchen tablespoon, and then level the tops with the flat edge of a standard kitchen knife. Of course, if one chooses to use a different pizza size for purposes of using the expanded dough calculating tool (with the same thickness factor and baker’s percents as recited above), it will be necessary to use November’s tool to get the correct conversions of the weights of flour to volumes. However, the numbers should be pretty straightforward and easy to use since the weights of the poolish flour and water are the same and all of the formula water is used in the poolish.

Peter

I just joined a few days ago, and I am amazed by all of the information available here. I tried making this pizza tonight, and wow. It was chewy, had great flavor, and can be made in the same day. I was going to take a picture of it but before I knew what happened it was eaten. Its amazing how using the same ingredients but in a slight variation from normal can produce such different results. Thanks for the awesome recipe!

I used the weight approach, using my kitchen scale to weigh out everything. Its not the best scale, but apparently it did the job. Also, I dont know if anyone else has done this, but I prefer to use rice flour on my stone and on my peel. It has a little more coarse of a consistency and helps the pizza to slide off a lot easier, plus it adds a little crunch and clean up is a ton easier.

Just a little something i picked up on at a local pizza place i worked at for a while. Ill make this recipe again on Sunday and post some pictures. Thanks!

Also, I'm thinking of cutting the dough in half to make 2 smaller pizzas so I can get them a bit thinner, its kind of hard getting a 15" or 16" pizza into my oven on the stone.

ELittle,I second your use of rice flour on the peel... I don't put it on the stone directly, but I know it helps on the peel and doesn't impart any off/burned flavors like some other peel "greasers" do. Since I tried rice flour, I haven't gone back to wheat flour, cornmeal or semolina. I buy it at my local grocery in the Bob's Red Mill section, which is actually in the "organic/health food" area. It can also be mail ordered... from www.bobsredmill.com and I live close enough that an order placed early on a Monday arrives at my doorstep on that Wednesday! I'm sold!

I have used JerryMac's recipe NUMEROUS times with great success, both his original "by feel" recipe and Peter's by weight. Both were equally delicious! Glad to hear it's working for you, too!

So my second attempt at this recipe was a bit awkward. I had originally planned to do this the same as before, using the same day preperation guidelines. But i had something unexpected come up so I had to use a variation.

I used the 5 hour pre-fermentation method, then added the honey, salt, and the rest of the flour/IDY mixture and let it sit for 1.5 hours. Then I had to put the dough into the fridge for approx. 18 hours. I then took the dough out and let it sit at room temperature for 1.5 hours, then shaped the dough balls into 12" rounds that I let proof for another 1 hour. The recipe calls for using it as one dough ball, but I wanted to try splitting it in half to achieve a thinner crust. I'll have to say it was a bit too thin, and next time I will keep it as a single crust.

I also carmelized my onions and sauteed the mushrooms to cut down on the amount of liquid that would be produced since my oven really isnt hot enough to evaporate all of the liquid produced during cooking. This didnt work out so well and the mushrooms were still a bit too moist so I left them off the second pizza.

I preheated my stone for an hour at 550 degrees, and cooked each pizza for about 12 minutes or a little over. The first one with the jalapenos and mushrooms was a little too wet, but the second one turned out perfect. I like my pizzas well done if you cant tell from the pictures.

The last batch of this recipe I made was great. It had an awesome texture, a nice chew to the crust, and probably had the best flavor I have ever achieved in a homemade crust, especially for not incorporating any oil or fat into the dough mixture. This variation of the recipe was the same. It had a crispy and chewy crust and excellent flavor, but it was too thin for my taste.

I put a photo album on my photobucket site since I am not allowed to post links because I am a new member. It shows most of the stages of the pizza plus final result pictures. As you can tell, there is a lot of flour on the bottoms of the pizza because I ran out of rice flour. And a couple of the pictures are blurry or have too much flash. I hope you enjoy checking out my progress. Thanks for the killer recipe!

I guess I cant post pictures or hyperlinks? Anyone have any ideas? I have a photobucket album loaded with pictures from this but I can't post any of them. Thanks.

To make the poolish, you would put all of the formula water, 8.69 oz., into the poolish bowl and then add an equal amount of the formula flour/IDY (8.69 oz.). As part of the final mix, you would add the remaining flour/IDY (plus the rest of the ingredients). The procedures are as described in the opening post. I would do the division of the dough batch into two dough balls right after the final mix. If you want an even thicker crust, it is easy to use the enhanced dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to enter whatever thickness factor you would like to try.

Just to let people know, I have made this recipe again 3 times, and each time it turns out great! Ive made the recalculated formula that Pete-zza posted for 2 pies and the original formula also, I love it. Im making it again tonight in fact I love it! Does anyone have any idea for a great thick crust recipe that is super chewy and not too "bready"? Once I find that I think my life may be complete I know there is a special area for thick crust also, but there is so many ideas I would gain 20 pounds before I found the perfect one!

Do you think this dough would lend itself to an experiment with wild yeast? I was thinking of a wild yeast preferment for ~18 hours or so. If so, what would be your recommendations for the hydration % based on the results of your experiments so far?Thanks in advance,FB

That's an interesting question. Generally speaking, I have discovered that the commercial yeast in just about any dough and for just about any pizza style can be replaced with a natural starter or preferment. I personally have done this with just about every pizza style but the American style (I simply have not gotten around to trying it with this style). However, the dough formulation I posted in the opening post in this thread is for a very high yeast dough that is intended to be made and used the same day. What you are proposing to do is to stretch out the process timewise by at least double--from about eight hours to 18 hours or more. I believe this can be done but it may depend on the condition of your starter/preferment and the amount you plan to use. To give you an example, suppose you decide to use an amount of a natural preferment that represents about 15% of the weight of the formula flour. This is a fairly typical number, and one that I have used many times before. Suppose also that your natural preferment is made up of equal weights of flour and water, the effect of which is to create a poolish (100% hydration) as was done with the dough formulation I posted in the opening post in this thread. Using the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html, the dough formulation for this set of conditions breaks down as follows:

To create the above table, I used the dough weight of the original formulation and subtracted out the weight of the honey, which is not an ingredient that the preferment dough calculating tool is designed to work with (although it can work with sugar). I also used a hydration of 69%. This was a 1% increase from the original 68%, and was increased to compensate for likely losses of water (through evaporation) in the preferment over an 18-hour or longer period. This was simply a guess on my part, since the amount of actual water loss will depend on the temperature of the preferment during the prefermentation process. I also used a bowl residue compensation factor of 2.5% in the preferment dough calculating tool, to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. I have discovered through experience that such dough losses tend to be higher for very wet mixtures of flour and water, as is the case with a poolish, for example.

To get the final dough weight, you would add in the weight of the honey (0.54 oz.) to the dough weight given in the above table. Doing this, the final dough weight comes to 19.92 oz. This should be enough dough to make a single 16" pizza. The honey would be added as part of the final mix, not as part of the natural preferment.

Of course, you can alter the numbers to suit your particular case. For example, your natural preferment may not be made up of equal weights of flour and water and, hence, may have not a hydration (defined here as the weight of the water divided by the weight of the flour in the preferment) of 100%. Also, you may decide that you want to use more or less than 15% of the weight of the formula flour, based on the activity level of your particular preferment and its other characteristics that are unique to your preferment. I have made and seen preferment levels as high as 40-45% of the formula flour. Whatever numbers you decide to use, the preferment dough calculating tool will produce the quantities of the ingredients to use based on your inputs to the tool. As noted above, you will have to handle the honey separately, as I did above, since the tool doesn't work with honey.