I have deleted what i originally posted here because apparently it was found to be too ridiculing. I do want to say here that it was not intended to ridicule anyone on this site for holding certain beliefs. If anyone interpreted it that way, i apologize. The intent of this post was to vent my frustrations regarding aspects of Christianity that i feel are hurtful to human beings and the opinions i expressed were directed toward beliefs not people who hold them.

Blueshift, I couldn't agree with you more. If you study the Book of Job (which tells the story of the battle between good and evil) you can only come to the conclusion that the reason God allows evil to exist is to insure mankind's love of Him is pure and unselfish. If there were no evil, nobody would have any reason NOT to believe in God, and therefore would praise him only when they wanted his divine help. So, he did not kill Satan but only banished him, allowing him to still work his evil ways, so that through mankind's suffering and agony, God would know that the ones who still believed in him were believing in him For The Right Reason...

"The Book of Job asserts that God acts for a reason for creating that evil. That reason is not punishment or character development. That reason is creation of a certain type of relationship between God and man. Evil is morally necessary to allow selfishness and selfless love to develop separately so that man can selflessly love God. If human beings know with certainty that God rewards those who love him, then human beings might be tempted to use God for their own ends. Selfishness corrupts selfless love. This claim is advanced through declarations by the author and by God of Job's virtual sinlessness (Job 1:1; 1:8; 2:3), Satan's first speech in heaven (Job 1:9-11) and God's acceptance of the terms of the test proposed. (Job 1:12: 2:6)"

A kind and loving God? I don't think so.

Lazarus

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"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

Yes, i am familiar with the book of Job. I'm quite familiar with most of the bible, really. It all paints this God as a very human and pathetic figure for someone who rules the universe and has lived for ever. I know mortal people who seem bigger in spirit than that God.

I often feel like i'm not quite accurate in saying that i am an atheist because it really depends on your definition of God whether i believe in it or not. I believe in a spirit that is in all that is created.. it is not "separate"(a meaningless word) and is not above the laws that are part of the fabric of existence.

Good and bad are two parts of one reality like the two sides of a coin.

Let me share a verse from the Tao te Ching that describes the being that i believe in.

" The great Tao flows everywhere, both to the left and to the right.The ten thousand things depend upon it; it holds nothing back.It fulfills its purpose silently and makes no claim.

It nourishes the ten thousand things,And yet, it is not their lord.It has no aim; it is very small.

The ten thousand things return to it,Yet it is not their lord.It is very great.

It does not show greatness,And is therefore truly great."

There are many translations of the Tao te Ching and it can be read many ways. Personally, though i like the translation i just quoted, i would change the word "small" to something like "humble".

Anyway, "the Tao" is the spirit that manifests as nature and i find the Tao much more lovable, respectable, and believable than the God of the bible.

i like your comment because even though we disagree on what our beliefs are we both feel we "let it go" To me letting go was acepting the realization that there was no god. To you letting go was the complete opposite. Just wanted to point that out,

i am a thriver who was raped by diverse clergy members & others... THE first rape was BRANDED into me from a catholic priest... for decades now i have healed from my horrific scars NOW illuminated stars... i AM THRIVING in my FULL spirituality... FOR ME, i will NEVER be a part of any organized religion... FOR ME, i see them as brainwashing cults... at times i have shared my honesty with others who immediately attack me... i have been TOLD by at least 5 of these type folks that i WILL ROT IN HELL... (i do not believe in their hell LOL) i finally learned just to LAUGH MY ASS OFF... i have eclectic ancestry of the most opposite religions & spiritualities... i also have been in diverse religions too... & NOW i TRUE~ly follow the spiritual ways of my native cherokee, native shawnee, & celtic greats... my spirituality is nature centered & i immerse myself in rituals, many i have created through my healing journey... these are "labeled" pagan & wiccan by others... as with my eclectic ancestry i disregard ALL labels...

this january i had a total breakthrough of healing that i KNOW & call my F.A.B. self... it is a TRUE return to my innocence before that first rape... having had multiple rapists i call REAL BOOGEYFREAK MONSTERS i FINALLY & SERIOUSLY KNOW i have dissolved their last chains of bondage... & THIS, for ALL of YOU, no matter what YOUr religious/spiritual beliefs are, is a most ahhhhhhhsome & shocking spiritual gift i NEVER EXPECTED as i journey on this painFULL perplexing planet... i invite ANY of YOU reading this to respectFULLy share/question/vent ANYTHING/ANYTIME... here or through my email (i think my email is public)...

I was raised going to church only occasionally, probably 10-15 times a year. I remember seeing people there acting pious who I knew had done very unpious things. I moved around the country a lot as a kid and got a lot of different religious inputs. I came away from all of it believing that arguing over religion was like arguing over who has the best imaginary friend. If it gives someone comfort, that's good for them; if they believe in nothing, that's also good for them. Too many conflicts are waged and too many people have died about who's on the right side of the right god.

Steve

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I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

Right on, John. I've always had a lot of respect for native American spirituality. I'm glad you were able to come out of that mire of abuse and hypocrisy you were victimized by and emerge victorious by finding your own path. That is truly inspirational!

Knowing the role Christianity played in my own sense of shame regarding my abuse, I can imagine how damaging it must be to be abused by a religious figure such as a priest or clergyman. I can only feel deeply sorry for those who go through that and still remain victims of those shame-oriented belief structures.

I understand your point of view. I never really delude myself into thinking that i have any chance of changing anyone's mind who is enthusiastically into Christianity. They will only hear what further confirms what they believe.

My only hope in challenging those beliefs here is that someone who is still open-minded enough to think critically about them might get a little support in doing so.

By the way, i like your signature quote. Kind of sums up my own hippie point of view in a way.

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