BhaktaGlenn:The methodology of Gayatri Mantra and Theravadin Buddhist Meditation are very different but, union with Brahma is achieved in both systems. The problem for many Buddhist is that they are Nibbana-centric and more concerned with the Buddha's defeat of the Brahmins than his offer to show them the Path that will unify them with God, for it is very brief.

Whilst the Theravada Teaches a Path to union with Brahma, it does not do so exclusively. The more ancient method is by recitation of the Gayatri Mantra but one requires to follow the correct protocols, which are not mentioned in the Tevijja Sutta.

Perhaps you should ask your friend how he or she came to that conclusion. If I here to hazard a guess, I would say someone has read the Tevijja Sutta and came away thinking that the Buddha taught union with Brahma. Or, confusion with regards to the Theravada Buddhist practice of Brahma Vihara which literally translates to "living with Brahman". Both are incorrect.

What we do know about the Buddha is that his entire teaching is reducable to the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. Buddha taught the way to the end of suffering, the end of the 'wandering on' in samsara. Not a path to union with Brahma which is Brahmanism.

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

nothing that guy says is buddhist, at least from any traditional stand point ive ever come across... he seems to be using what i would call accidents of language to bring things together that really dont match upits like when people say hinduism buddhism and jainism all teach the truth of karma, well yeah but all mean different things when they use the word karma... so one's truth is another one's lies...

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

I am not at home, so I do not have my books at hand, but there is a sutta in the Majjhima Nikaya that characterizes union with brahma, which is possible, as a hina goal when compared to the attainment of awakening, bodhi. After all, Brahma is still a mortal, kamma bound being.

Bhakta Glenn tends to conflates all sorts of things.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

The definition (with similes)[First jhana]"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...

[Second jhana]"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.

"Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from east, west, north, or south, and with the skies periodically supplying abundant showers, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure...

[Third jhana]"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.

"Just as in a blue-, white-, or red-lotus pond, there may be some of the blue, white, or red lotuses which, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those blue, white, or red lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture...

[Fourth jhana]"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.

"Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness."

— AN 5.28

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Well that sounds like someone who has been taught about the Buddha from the perspective of hinduism (not sure if it is one sect or more that believe this) and see the Buddha as a Avatara of Vishnu, just as Krishna was suppose to be. Missing the actual teachings, and clumping everyone in a group of not knowing the teachings themselves!it is complete rubbish and also a possible attempt to sway members who are new and looking at Buddhism as a possible system to adopt into converting to their beliefs.there are gods in Buddhism, but they are no more relevant to the practice and teachings than Barry White (who is GOD!the Blessed Walrus of )

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

Dazzlebling wrote:He also stated "one may achieve union with him by Buddhist Samatha Meditation"

In Buddhist teaching a samatha meditator who is adept in jhana may, after death, find herself reborn in one or another of the sixteen Brahma heavens. But this wouldn't be termed "union with Brahma" in anything like the Hindu sense. That is to to say, she won't find herself becoming of the same substance as Brahma or realizing her true identity with him/it, or anything like that. Rather, she'll simply be an individual, impermanent Brahma deity living with a bunch of other impermanent Brahma deities until the kamma that got her there is exhausted.

The bhakta was making a simple mistake. Brahmā (with the macron) is the Hindu creator, Brahma is an impersonal principle. The Gayatri mantra is aimed at either a female deity so called or Savitur the Sun deity. Buddhism has nothing to do with any of these.

Last edited by Will on Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A man should not judge a man, for he harms himself very quickly, that man who judges a man.Only I or someone like me can assess a man.Buddha in the Surangamasamadhi Sutra

This is the problem with internet forums; there is no vetting who posts information... and there is a lot of bad information out there. I feel sorry for anyone who depends on internet forums for basic information about Buddhism.

Dazzlebling wrote:He also stated "one may achieve union with him by Buddhist Samatha Meditation"

In Buddhist teaching a samatha meditator who is adept in jhana may, after death, find herself reborn in one or another of the sixteen Brahma heavens. But this wouldn't be termed "union with Brahma" in anything like the Hindu sense. That is to to say, she won't find herself becoming of the same substance as Brahma or realizing her true identity with him/it, or anything like that. Rather, she'll simply be an individual, impermanent Brahma deity living with a bunch of other impermanent Brahma deities until the kamma that got her there is exhausted.

Best wishes,Dhammanando Bhikkhu

In addition to what Dhammanando and others have said, I'd add: in Buddhist cosmology, the Brahma worlds are very far from being the "highest" form of rebirth.

Bhakta_Glenn wrote:The reason why Hindus see the Buddha as an Avatar is because they have a different, uncompounded view of reality. From this perspective, the Buddha could not be considered to be anything else than an Avatar of God. But, since when did Theravada Buddhism ever consider diplomacy when crushing the views of other faiths?

That is an interesting paragraph. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you just explain why Hindus dismiss Buddha as being not at all what he claimed to be (and what Theravadins believe him to be), and then accuse Theravada Buddhism of crushing the views of other faiths?

"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus