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Re: Convention Center Hotel

The west side of the CC would make much more sence... Everthing must go West!!! I want to know what developer is buying the property at 500 block of SW 3rd I had a commercial realtor drop a hint of a buyer buy would not tell me . Any info.. he said it was going to be big..

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Originally Posted by Architect2010

Have we not all come to the agreement that the Ford Center was left intentionally unfinished? Did we not, in 2009 as a city, vote to have the unfinished Ford Center brought to a more "league-comparable" finish? And in the end, it will still be cheaper than some 400 million dollar arena.

Political riff-raff and opinions aside; old news. Let's get back to 2011.

Architect, you're dead-on. Anyone who says otherwise is unintentionally, or intentionally, engaging in revisionist history. The arena was opened with relatively minimum amenities but designed to be upgraded for a major league tenant. That's fact. I was there. I was there when the instructions were given by the city council to Benham Group, which designed the arena. I was there for the surprisingly low construction bid by Flintco. I was there when it opened. So yes, back to 2011.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Originally Posted by betts

Larry, no matter how many people you quote or how many times you say it was supposed to be state of the art, the fact remains that anyone who has visited a couple of other NBA arenas and who has been inside the Ford Center knows that while it was big enough and had the reqisite number of seats and suites, the finish details were not there. Anyone who thinks that an $89,000 arena can be state of the art when compared with $250,000 to $450,000 arenas has magical thinking, be it you or the mayor.

What about the Ballot, NBA & Stern?

After the improvements, we have a $200MM arena. Below the low end of your price range. So how does it compare now? Must be more magic!

ON EDIT: You are wrong on so many of your contentions that you continue to assert even with presented with the evidence. Deny it all you want. Facts are the facts and can be looked up by anyone interested in doing so. But so we don't further derail this thread, lets take it elsewhere and we can go over it again, point by point.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Originally Posted by Steve

Architect, you're dead-on. Anyone who says otherwise is unintentionally, or intentionally, engaging in revisionist history. The arena was opened with relatively minimum amenities but designed to be upgraded for a major league tenant. That's fact. I was there. I was there when the instructions were given by the city council to Benham Group, which designed the arena. I was there for the surprisingly low construction bid by Flintco. I was there when it opened. So yes, back to 2011.

Absolutely, that is true, but it if not mistaken, it was also reported in both the Oklahoman and the Journal Record, it was the City's intent for the eventual tenant to pay for those upgrades (if they decided they wanted them). For some reason, some (not you Steve), like to forget that part.

Steve is right when he mentions the bid (it came in $10MM under what the then budget was). But it was a mistake. Even though they claimed they would stand by the bid, they went some $20MM over the bid amount. I don't know what happened there. Would have been even higher but due to the cost over runs, an unspecified list of 22 items were deleted to keep the some control over the cost over run (still came in $8.8MM over what voters were told).

Re: Convention Center Hotel

I don't know why some of you are surprised by how the MAPS projects are progressing. We've seen enough over the past 18 years to know how the city is going to handle MAPS 3. I'm not going to argue with Larry OKC about bids or cost overruns or what someone promised in a Journal Record article from 15 years ago. I don't care about any of that. Those are small details as far as I'm concerned.

Truth is, the MAPS projects are underfunded. $777 million is not enough to build a convention center, a hotel, install a downtown mass transit system, open a world-class park, and do everything else in the plan. It's just not enough. You can't do that anywhere. So what we're going to get is a bare-bones version. We're going to get a convention center that's not as big as we want, that's just kind of plain. We're going to get a hotel that's not as tall as we want, and it's going to require additional funding. We're going to get a park that's pretty good, but not Millennium Park or NYC's Central Park. And we're going to get a streetcar system that while kinda cool, will need a serious infusion of cash to become more than a nice little curiosity.

And you know what? That's okay, because it's what we paid for. Other cities spend vast amounts of money on these projects, and they suffer from cost overruns as well. Look at Boston's Big Dig. $22 billion (original cost projection: $2.8 billion). Kansas City Power and Light District. $850 million. JerryWorld. $1.15 billion. We're trying to get everything for a very low price. You're not gonna get the new big sparkly when you're trying to get everything for a low price.

Fact is, we're building stuff now that other cities built back in the 60s and 70s. We're playing catch up. So don't expect a world-class anything. We're just trying to pull even with other cities our size. The MAPS projects shoot for "good enough". MAPS 3 would have needed twice as much money to do everything we dream about. Probably more. But the important thing is to get something functional established. Once we have a working streetcar system, even if it's small, we can expand it. Once we have the new park, we can spruce it up. We can always extend the canal. We improved the Ford Center. That's just how the MAPS projects work. We're not going to get perfect. We aren't spending enough money for that. But what we're getting is desperately needed, because right now we've got very little.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Originally Posted by hoyasooner

I don't know why some of you are surprised by how the MAPS projects are progressing. We've seen enough over the past 18 years to know how the city is going to handle MAPS 3. I'm not going to argue with Larry OKC about bids or cost overruns or what someone promised in a Journal Record article from 15 years ago. I don't care about any of that. Those are small details as far as I'm concerned.

Truth is, the MAPS projects are underfunded. $777 million is not enough to build a convention center, a hotel, install a downtown mass transit system, open a world-class park, and do everything else in the plan. It's just not enough. You can't do that anywhere. So what we're going to get is a bare-bones version. We're going to get a convention center that's not as big as we want, that's just kind of plain. We're going to get a hotel that's not as tall as we want, and it's going to require additional funding. We're going to get a park that's pretty good, but not Millennium Park or NYC's Central Park. And we're going to get a streetcar system that while kinda cool, will need a serious infusion of cash to become more than a nice little curiosity.

And you know what? That's okay, because it's what we paid for. Other cities spend vast amounts of money on these projects, and they suffer from cost overruns as well. Look at Boston's Big Dig. $22 billion (original cost projection: $2.8 billion). Kansas City Power and Light District. $850 million. JerryWorld. $1.15 billion. We're trying to get everything for a very low price. You're not gonna get the new big sparkly when you're trying to get everything for a low price.

Fact is, we're building stuff now that other cities built back in the 60s and 70s. We're playing catch up. So don't expect a world-class anything. We're just trying to pull even with other cities our size. The MAPS projects shoot for "good enough". MAPS 3 would have needed twice as much money to do everything we dream about. Probably more. But the important thing is to get something functional established. Once we have a working streetcar system, even if it's small, we can expand it. Once we have the new park, we can spruce it up. We can always extend the canal. We improved the Ford Center. That's just how the MAPS projects work. We're not going to get perfect. We aren't spending enough money for that. But what we're getting is desperately needed, because right now we've got very little.

Hold up. MAPS is not developing a hotel. A private developer is going to be selected for that project. The city just wants the hotel attached to the convention center. Steve, am I correct?

Re: Convention Center Hotel

In my opinion at least one of the projects will be world class and that is the river project. In fact, it is almost world class right now and once completed it will be the most outstanding venue for paddle sports on the planet. The quicker it is finished the better and I say this knowing I will never use any of it.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

What's happened, and continues to happen at the river is amazing (the big taxi boats excluded. Those seem to be just a money sink.)

But the rest, very awesome. However, is any of the existing improvement from any of the various MAPs? The water rapids will be, but I thought the rest was from bond issues and from a significant amount of private funding?

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Originally Posted by Larry OKC

Absolutely, that is true, but it if not mistaken, it was also reported in both the Oklahoman and the Journal Record, it was the City's intent for the eventual tenant to pay for those upgrades (if they decided they wanted them). For some reason, some (not you Steve), like to forget that part.

Steve is right when he mentions the bid (it came in $10MM under what the then budget was). But it was a mistake. Even though they claimed they would stand by the bid, they went some $20MM over the bid amount. I don't know what happened there. Would have been even higher but due to the cost over runs, an unspecified list of 22 items were deleted to keep the some control over the cost over run (still came in $8.8MM over what voters were told).

Well, I was the guy at The Oklahoman who did those reports in The Oklahoman. It's true that some hoped a tenant might pay for such improvements and said so for political expediency. But the truth is city leaders at the time ('98-'99) were always fully expecting that if a major league team there would be a tax money needed for the upgrade.
Now, to settle a debate that will likely happen in 2020-2025 ... yes, city leaders know at this point that there will be a push for a new arena when the current one hits 20 years old.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

It is my understanding that in addition to the rapids, the grandstand, lighting, waterstage, jumbotron on the bridge, wind shield and the elevator down from the bridge is to be funded by maps. Perhaps LarryOKC can dig into his bag of facts and tell us for sure.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Hold up. MAPS is not developing a hotel. A private developer is going to be selected for that project. The city just wants the hotel attached to the convention center. Steve, am I correct?

I will be very, very surprised if there isn't an effort to use $50 million to $60 million in public funding to help build the hotel. It's fully expected, and multiple experts have advised the convention center won't be a success without the hotel, and the hotel won't be feasible without $50 million to $60 million in public subsidies. Will that amount come from the MAPS 3 sales tax? The use tax? Will it involve bond issues? I don't know. Council members Ed Shadid and Pete White have argued the city has been less than forthright with residents about this issue.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Originally Posted by Steve

Well, I was the guy at The Oklahoman who did those reports in The Oklahoman. It's true that some hoped a tenant might pay for such improvements and said so for political expediency. But the truth is city leaders at the time ('98-'99) were always fully expecting that if a major league team there would be a tax money needed for the upgrade.
Now, to settle a debate that will likely happen in 2020-2025 ... yes, city leaders know at this point that there will be a push for a new arena when the current one hits 20 years old.

Steve, is there a plan in place for where a future arena will be built? It's great that it's downtown now, but if properties get bought up and developed that could push the arena further from the core. Is there a plan in place? Thanks.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Originally Posted by KilgoreTrout

Steve, is there a plan in place for where a future arena will be built? It's great that it's downtown now, but if properties get bought up and developed that could push the arena further from the core. Is there a plan in place? Thanks.

Not publicly. There isn't even a public discussion of this possibility that I know of - at least not involving the decision makers.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Originally Posted by Popsy

It is my understanding that in addition to the rapids, the grandstand, lighting, waterstage, jumbotron on the bridge, wind shield and the elevator down from the bridge is to be funded by maps. Perhaps LarryOKC can dig into his bag of facts and tell us for sure.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Originally Posted by Steve

Well, I was the guy at The Oklahoman who did those reports in The Oklahoman. It's true that some hoped a tenant might pay for such improvements and said so for political expediency. But the truth is city leaders at the time ('98-'99) were always fully expecting that if a major league team there would be a tax money needed for the upgrade.
Now, to settle a debate that will likely happen in 2020-2025 ... yes, city leaders know at this point that there will be a push for a new arena when the current one hits 20 years old.

So then, leadership at the time wasn't being exactly truthful?

Just curious, but why do you think it will be at the 20 year mark, when Mayor Cornett talked about replacing the Arena after about 5 years? Even if the improved Arena is "like a brand new building" (or whatever phrase the Mayor used), seems that is only going to buy us about another 5 years or so. About the same time as the teams first opt out clause. Stern stated that cities shouldn't expect arenas to last more than about 10 years or so. Based on all of that, I think there will be talk of a replacement arena sooner rather than later. Maybe as long as a year or so out from when MAPS 3 tax ends and MAPS 4 is in the works. Then there is the sticky problem with the lease itself, where the City is obligated to keep making upgrades or replacing the arena for the term of the lease (15 to 30 years). Yet with no significant funding source mechanism to do so.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Originally Posted by Steve

I will be very, very surprised if there isn't an effort to use $50 million to $60 million in public funding to help build the hotel. It's fully expected, and multiple experts have advised the convention center won't be a success without the hotel, and the hotel won't be feasible without $50 million to $60 million in public subsidies. Will that amount come from the MAPS 3 sales tax? The use tax? Will it involve bond issues? I don't know. Council members Ed Shadid and Pete White have argued the city has been less than forthright with residents about this issue.

Of course Mr. Shadid wasn't complicit since he wasn't on the Council yet, but where was Mr. White during the campaign? If he was one of the ones running around pushing MAPS 3, did he happen to mention this? Sounds like the Use Tax promises, where after the fact the Council loudly protest that they didn't make any such commitment (yet were largely silent on the subject when it was happening). I think the C.C. was mentioned in passing but like maintenance of projects and the like, was given scant attention. Shrugged off & dismissed. That would be something they would deal with later.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Larry, I can't imagine the Oklahoma City Arena being replaced within five years after completion of the renovations. That would be a HUGE waste of money. I don't see why it couldn't last at least twenty years, preferably longer. I don't understand why so many people push for things to constantly be torn down and replaced. As long as the building is upgraded and remodeled every five to ten years at least, I see no reason to tear it down.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Originally Posted by Larry OKC

So then, leadership at the time wasn't being exactly truthful?

Just curious, but why do you think it will be at the 20 year mark, when Mayor Cornett talked about replacing the Arena after about 5 years? Even if the improved Arena is "like a brand new building" (or whatever phrase the Mayor used), seems that is only going to buy us about another 5 years or so. About the same time as the teams first opt out clause. Stern stated that cities shouldn't expect arenas to last more than about 10 years or so. Based on all of that, I think there will be talk of a replacement arena sooner rather than later. Maybe as long as a year or so out from when MAPS 3 tax ends and MAPS 4 is in the works. Then there is the sticky problem with the lease itself, where the City is obligated to keep making upgrades or replacing the arena for the term of the lease (15 to 30 years). Yet with no significant funding source mechanism to do so.

I wouldn't be completely shocked if MAPS 4 had funding either for a new arena or an arena upgrade. But, I also don't expect MAPS 4 to be voted on until we're done with all the MAPS 3 projects. That will be ten years from now. Then, it could easily be the very last project, which would give it a completion date of about 2030. That would be 28 years after it originally opened. As far as upgrades go, let's wait and see if any are requested. What's the saying?: 90% of the things we worry about never happen. Let's give the worrying a rest and deal with it if it ever happens.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

Please show me where someone said an arena should only last 10 years or where the Mayor said it would last only 5 years after renovations. There is no way Stern or Cornett said those things. Might want to check you facts, LarryOKC. Arenas should last about 25 years or so. MAPs 4 might be a good time to build a world class arena with the goal of it being completed by around 2030.

Re: Convention Center Hotel

I think at least 15-20 years, with periodic updates.

also, I would think we'd start talking about MAPS IV not when all of the current projects are finished, but instead when the tax is about to expire. The idea is basically to keep the tax going, because once you stop it - it may be hard to turn it back on.