~ Cultural Sickness

Addressing The Women’s Wisdom Circle Pyramid

I’d like to publicly call out the viral sickness of Women’s Wisdom Circle Culture as well as directly acknowledge its inner most workings from a first person perspective. I am offering the following information as a way of standing for the compassionate dismantling that could happen if enough women wake up in true acknowledgment and choose to step back from it. This blog post is in no way meant to create separation, or cause harm to any groups or individuals. I am not in any way against acts of true giving or circles of sisterhood. The purpose of this post is to provide education to the public on the currently unsustainable structure of this “Gifting Culture”, so that people can feel supported in making educated, well-rounded, informed decisions. Because much of the language around it is either shrouded in secrecy or new age thought, this post may come off as decidedly one-sided, however it is intended to simply cut through the conditioning and get right to the heart of what is happening.

If you are not yet familiar with The Women’s Wisdom Circle Culture Pyramid Scheme, please refer to the following articles and diagram before continuing. They each describe the same type of scheme under different names. The one I am calling attention to uses the dinner party positions to signify your place in the three-sided-circle. Regardless of how women feel during their involvement, or what arguments people make for the continuation of it in the community, I think you will find after reading this article that besides the psychological manipulation that can get used to keep it perpetuating, like all pyramid schemes, this all boils down to simple math. Below in the comments section, Scott Malis has clearly written out the math so that everyone can see why this is not healthy to get involved in, and has little to do with empowerment or unconditional gifting. Generally, people get in hoping for an 800% return. Even if gifting language is used, and women are inspired to gift into the circle with good intentions, it is still considered a form of investing.

I’d like to stand on behalf of women who are considering or have recently joined, in the hopes of educating and giving them back the capacity to truly make a free decision. (i.e. one that is not heavily weighted by the psychic gravity of a sisterhood involved in sacred ritual practice, counter-cultural momentum, the outright abuse of social ranking systems, the amplification of and worship of new age spiritual “group think programming” and the blinding heart quake that can happen during the invitation process where you are told of an empowerment bridge designed to forge the way for womankind to rise up and shine in all her glory.)

It is not easy to write this, nor sign my name at the bottom of this letter, but I am intending to complete my full disclosure in a good way. I’m clear that there is a high likelihood that this will result in a number of both direct and indirect assaults on my character and name, however, since I already feel alienated from those who I thought were my closest friends and community, it seems like an adequate conclusion to give the best possible information that I can, amidst bowing and departing. I am hoping that the arc of experience illustrated in this blog post will give women adequate reason to reflect on their own decisions.

I am clear in my own heart that this has broken enough relationships in my life, and caused a cascade of shattering in all kinds of ways. This process has been illuminating and awakening in ways that I am in no way regretting. Regardless of how many friends or community illusions I am losing, I see this powerful step forward as the silver lining.

I left circle as soon as I was capable of going. It wasn’t easy. I sincerely didn’t know when I joined that it is a pyramid scheme. Once I found out, it drove me crazy, and I didn’t feel I had many people I could talk about it with. I joined through one of my very dear friends, and cried upon receiving the invitation, thinking it would truly help me pull myself out of a significant amount of difficulty, as well as help me find my voice in the community. The knowledge of truth came months later, after a succession of events, one of which happened after inviting an elder in my life to join. She directed me towards a life coach and wealthy real estate executive friend who had also won big and then woke up out of his own network-marketing web. He has coached women out for over a decade. We spoke for three hours. I then spoke with one of my close girlfriends about that meeting, and over the course of our conversation allowed my subconscious hopes and fears, and her prompting and convincing perspective to again convince me that it was not a pyramid scheme. She reflected to me the size of the gray area I was standing in. A gray area that is bolstered in the circle documents, and reinforced by the community. She encouraged me to work through my blocks around receiving and to continue in my process of elevating into “abundance consciousness,” and into the circles version of empowerment. I stayed a while longer but my soul really fought it, and so after ceremony, meditation, I Ching readings, isolating myself for weeks, driving myself crazy, praying, etc, I finally managed to both messily confront the friend who had initially invited me, and as diplomatically as I was able, I left the two circles I was in. I left one about a month before stepping into Dessert, and one after several months in. My conscience wouldn’t let me keep going, despite all the outward encouragement and mirroring from my circle and other women to stay and complete it. There is a lot of pressure while in Dessert to uphold a certain kind of scripted rhetoric, and the women I was supporting, women I had grown to care deeply about, kept projecting their positive concepts of leadership on me, while trying to work for the health of the circle. In truth I had a genuine desire to be of service to my own and their empowerment, but once I realized that I had no way of ensuring their successful completion or anyone’s, and amidst acknowledging the size of my own internal struggle, it became very clear that it was time go, and I hoped to at least try to do it in a good way.

This process unfolding also showed me that my “friends” in other “circles” had no interest in seeing me or others blossom with our dreams through true community support and empowerment. Their priorities were still wholeheartedly on bailing water enough to serve their own advancing and winning, and to keep their own circles going. This is where actions speak much louder than words. It became very difficult during the last couple of months for women to have a lot of success with inviting because of how greedy many women in the community became with the lightning and fire circles (strategically designed to pump women through all of the stages in between 24 hours – one week, depending on the circle). The overall worldwide expansion this all caused I’m told gave birth to at least 200 new circles a day. How many women do you suspect are needed just to keep those 200 circles going, month after month? This level of need for new invites can, and I believe did create a huge amount of unspoken competition in the communities where circle culture is now at saturation. I hope by now I am painting a very lovingly packaged picture of the new age thought, fear, and greed that is essential for this structures survival. The more I reflect on it, the more it becomes apparent that pyramid schemes are just a microcosm of the conditioning of the world economic system, but as far as I’m concerned, this does not justify their existence. These structures are designed for the profiting of a few, while failing and stealing from the many. Not very conscious, empowering, or easily justifiable, and yet it continues.

It also isn’t set up to properly educate women when they are getting in. Upon joining and after traveling through the honeymoon initiation phases of being an Appetizer, I noticed that the Senior Sisters started making regular amendments to the documents. You could be months into circle, and suddenly under new guidelines, and offered new twisted perspectives on “Law of Attraction” principles and inviting as a way of keeping it propped up and going. It’s almost impossible to get in touch with the main leadership council besides one woman I know of who calls herself a Senior Sister. Everyone else hides behind a bulk email list and email address with no actual names or contacts given.

I got very tired of almost every woman I know calling me to invite me, and making a show of pretending to care about what was happening in my life. Phone calls from women I have not heard from in months and even years in some cases. It became impossible for me to discern the real reasons people were calling me, feel good about participating, inviting, receiving gifts, celebrating what beauty there is on the calls, etc. Everyone in my circle began feeling my reactivity, disenchantment and disengagement. Of course this is not good for “the health of the circle. ” It was incredibly relieving and liberating once I got out.

At one point while I was still in it, my “Circle” reached out to some of the higher up women in our community, for their help when the entire circle culture seemed to be struggling. I then confronted my friend who invited me directly about what was happening and to mention I’d realized it was a pyramid scheme. She was one of my closest friends. She wasn’t willing or capable of taking any responsibility, amidst seeing some of her good friends struggling. We asked for her help and guidance but none of it seemed to influence her or wake her up to what was really happening, although she did her best to lovingly hear our concerns. Every one we turned to for help and understanding either evaded communication, gave us more pep talks, or loads of sympathy. One of the women who calls herself a Senior Sister gave a bunch of new age posturing, “understanding” positive lip service, and more “coaching” but no real action, and other influential friends either didn’t respond, or backed out from helping.

Within my experience of circle culture it’s really a big unspoken “no no” and taboo to wake up and call out while still participating that it’s actually a ” Pyramid Scheme.” Actually if you do, people will basically tell you that you are wrong, it’s a circle, or tell you that you are in your head and not your heart, and that your just in poverty consciousness or shouldn’t get involved. You’re considered not conscious enough, or intelligent, and afraid to evolve if you think of it like that. If you bring forward what you find online about it, your told that it’s put there to dis empower you, as I will go into later. Most women who wake up to this reality end up leaving circle through an excuse such as that they just don’t have time for it, or it doesn’t feel right for them personally, or that they can’t handle the leadership responsibility.

I realize in writing this I could simply let go, hope to educate women one on one not to join, and understand that everyone is going to live and learn in whatever way in this is right for them. I think Andrew Jones makes a very important point though that this could very well destroy a lot of relationships and communities. I know there is a lot of trust now shattered between myself and many of the women I called friends. Many people are contacting me reflecting that more than half of the women they know are now involved, and others saying that they see relationships ending, and many people feeling outcast from relationships and groups they once thought of as core to their life.

I’m sure each woman who is still continuing involvement is having their own process. In that regard I cannot begin to understand. I know many women who had sincere desires to be part of what they thought was a container for empowerment and a sustainable gifting economy when joining. I’ve also over-heard many women continually excited to get through as many circles as they possibly can in the hopes of grabbing tons of cash with no real willingness or capacity to see the effects of their actions on the exponential growth factor. Clearly in a widening demographic of women, the motives and intentions behind each persons participation are varied and complex. I’m currently researching the psychological and cultural dynamics that keep things like this going, and am realizing that it goes beyond the desire to gift, create community, or gullibility and greed, although those are significant factors. I think that many people sincerely feel a need for a sustainable form of community resource sharing, and jump at the chance to get into this when it is presents itself without really seeing it for what it truly is. As you can see by the chart above, its design makes it easy to ignore that it’s actually a pyramid.

I’d like to describe to you some of the reasons I feel that the invitation process is so intoxicating, as well as shed a light on some of the gravity and socially (and mentally) indoctrinated constructs that makes it feel like such a good idea to join. I’m hoping to paint an accurate portrait of the spiritual smokescreen that gets created around circle culture. You may come to see clearly why this is so well protected by many women, as well as how it could become so difficult to cut chords with it once you begin to see what is really happening.

THE ROLE OF RANK.

·I would like to acknowledge the role of rank and it’s influence. Have you ever considered your rank socially? Most people consider the word rank a bad word. It’s not actually. It’s a fact of living in a “modern day “ civilization. We all live with, consciously or unconsciously, some forms of rank. One thing to recognize is that conscious use of rank can be used to empower and elevate, whereas unconscious rank can become abusive and oppressive pretty quickly. It is also like a drug. Sometimes the more you have of it, the more you find yourself trying to get, even while denying it. You can have rank in some specific ways and not realize that you are using it unconsciously, and be completely oblivious to any harm it may be causing. Even the best-intentioned most amazing people can use rank unconsciously from time to time.

·If you are a woman in the world with a considerable amount of societal rank, whether it be from your financial status, the color of your skin, fame or public accolades, level of youth or health, beauty, body type, sexual orientation, wealth, connections, educational background, cultural influence or popularity, because of a reputation for being evolved spiritually, or because people just generally respect what you do and think, this would be a good time to make a list of all of the ways in which you simply just have natural-born or accumulated rank.

A teacher recently reflected to me that unconscious rank is the great destroyer of intimacy. If there is a lack of equality in any relationship, it will be very difficult to connect authentically, and derive meaning, sustenance and true empowerment from it, until true common ground is found. Pyramid schemes perpetuate and feed off of rank, or at least, the illusion of rank. This is how Scott explained it to me. When you are setting up an info or invite call with a new potential woman or “recruit”, you will most likely do everything you can to be on the same level as that person during your conversation. Because you are selling them the circle, this is the time to create a feeling of equality, understanding and connection with them. Then you try to edify or talk up the circle by using what is called your upline. Your upline are the people you’ve seen or heard go through this thing multiple times successfully. They’ve rocked it. You’ve seen or heard it working for them, or maybe some famous and respected people you know, and so your building those individuals up as the authority figures and the experts in the mind of the new recruit. Maybe your upline is your current Dessert, so by the time the new invite is on the phone with them they view them as an authority, with higher rank, whose time and energy is very valuable. This puts the new recruit in the position of having to respect their view. In some ways you are subtly making your Dessert or the Senior Sisters in the circle culture Guru figures or something of a similar flavoring of having a high status whom you can automatically trust and respect.

·If you are a card-carrying member of any combination of the above forms of rank, as well as live on the West Coast (and are also cycling back again and again into this thing), consider the implications of compounding this unspoken force of gravity with being in a circle community in which the governing body is generating a constant need to find new women because of how saturated circle culture now is. There is currently at this juncture no solution to quicken its sustainability. In fact, because of the pyramids exponential nature, there is nothing you can do to make it sustainable. So you must now spread the inviting process into a widening demographic which includes those of potentially lower levels of personal resources and rank, just to keep the thing going, or, in the case that we’ve seen happen and basically begin destroying our community, you get a bunch of highly resourced women with a lot of rank together to all agree to power through some fire and lightning circles, without any regard for the success of the innocent and still learning young initiates who are having their first circle “empowerment” experience.

·Whether or not I just completely offended you, I can’t help but ask, at what point do we call a spade a spade? The truth is, in most cases you don’t know half of the women you are circling with, and by the time they reach Dessert, you will be long gone, in another universe, another circle and another dream, because your unconscious rank makes it nearly impossible to see how easy it has become for you to do certain things. So you make your way through circle, possibly over and over again, while many dozens now, hundreds and now potentially thousands are now struggling and afraid deep down they could wind up losing their money. People you will never get a chance to meet, so might as well pretend they don’t exist. But now you’ve completed another Dessert and you’ve got other priorities, and you’ve potentially even forgotten about the dreams those Appetizers you were traveling with shared, or some of their names. There is absolutely no way of knowing if your good friends you have been traveling with are going to have a positive experience toward completing it. Your investment in their well-being ended when your circle split, and you completed yet another round in Dessert.

The thorn however is this. The hitch in the rigged game involving rank is actually quite simple with regards to a pyramid scheme, or a Circle, as we can from this point on affectionately call it. The thorn is that no matter how much rank you have, eventually you’re not going to make it. Unless you pull a Tesla Coil out of the sky that spins in ancient unison with the Grandmother rhythm of the Tauroidal field and get it to do your bidding for you and no one else. It breaks my heart to know this. Many of those who I considered my really close friends are still in it. I know that while I was in Dessert some friends did all they could to help things happen in a good way, including for the whole circle and for me before I left. It breaks my heart that writing this letter could fuel their loss but I can’t stand by and consider the implications of being quiet about what is clearly going to be a losing game for many women. In the last months I have had to deeply confront my own conditioning, and how easily I give into community phases and peer pressuring, and the desire to be included, participating, liked, loved, and supported.

The “Circle Journey”

So what makes this Invitation into Circle so compelling that you would want to come up with giving an “unconditional” gift of $5,000? And what is it actually like once your “circling.”

·A good story that paints a picture of exactly what you have most deeply ached for and needed as a woman, including hope, a woven sense of community, and a feeling of massively answered prayers. The pitch includes a story which cuts right into the heart of the archetypal journey as a woman, involving a historical context that gives a sense of rising up in solidarity out of past traumatic experiences, dis-empowered identities and oppression, and into a new life of expansion into true potential. It is said that circle was started back in the 80’s as a way to fund women’s shelters for those in the process of leaving abusive relationships, and that the current lineages were born from their vision in designing it.

1.You are invited by someone you think you know very well, who you love, adore and quite possibly look up to. She and other important voices mirror that you are special and ready for the next step in life. You feel an ancient soul memory of Rites of Passage, and this invitation in feels something like it.

You are a Chosen One. It is an invitation into something that you are told is only for the “right woman, who is ready for true financial sovereignty. You are mirrored brightly as being very special, already on a spiritual path, good enough, smart, strong, intelligent, socially resourced, capable and abundant enough to take the next big step in life.

You are encouraged to respect yours and the circle’s right to Privacy and to especially never discuss your circle activity with men, unless it is your partner, or a potential backer. The truth is, if you start discussing it with men, you are going to find that many of them are freaked out by it and some will recognize it as a pyramid scheme. Their adamant resistance to your joining is going to fuel your insistence that you are right, and that its for women’s empowerment. It will give you a feeling of having proof that even in 2013 men want to keep women oppressed and don’t respect their intelligence. So you keep it a secret from them if you can, ( and anyone else that might question it’s validity ) or insist on their supporting you, creating a greater unconscious rift between your real life relationship dynamics and furthering your need for your new circle sisters to give you the emotional ( and possibly financial ) support you are needing to complete it. You are now leading a double life split between people you can and can’t safely discuss your circle activity with.

2.You are given a Road Map and the promise of Elders. A system of “historically successful” documents and protocols that are shrouded in secrecy are passed to you, and you are encouraged to get an encrypted email account. They assure you that you can complete it successfully, and that you have an elder group of women, regarded as a High Council, who will be there to protect and guide you should anything out of the ordinary happen. Circle assures you that while you are having your process and feelings with your sisters, a council of Super Moms and Grandmothers have totally got your back.

The promise of true sisterhood and empowerment: Amidst very sweet weekly call gatherings that expound upon group visualization techniques, meditations and Law of Attraction exercises, you are encouraged to engage with and share about your greatest hopes and dreams in life. The bond that this builds each week generates energy towards each woman’s inviting process. The power of your group sharing experiences also becomes yet another emotionally charged platform to sell new women on.

You are told you will be given the keys to effective leadership. During your initiations, you are offered through those higher up than you as well as in the documents that you will gain a tremendous amount of leadership training and empowerment, and go on to elevate, uplift, and inspire others. Part of this training asserts to you that it would be the most enlightened act to give a very large gift, and to do it freely with no expectation, as a spiritual exercise. Because, as an already enlightened enough woman, who is obviously capable now to take the next step in life, you are expected to pull the rabbit of $5,000 out of your magic hat relatively “ease-fully and gracefully” as a way of devoting yourself to this hand-picked collection of exceptional women. (You most likely borrow it from someone or get backed by a woman who is sick of being in Dessert.) You are then encouraged through months of group process and training to work as much as is required to make sure that you have absolutely no blocks to receiving or negative thought processes involving money, empowerment, the other women in circle, potential women who could be “just magically out there waiting to come in” or circle culture.

Your leadership training by the time you get to Dessert involves coaching women on their inviting and how to view their life circumstances more positively. You are encouraged to keep conversations with the other women on your team related to circle within a short time-frame, and to teach that circle is not about therapy. You are given a workload of organizational tasks and communications to keep every single week, taking up the time and psychic energy equivalent to a high level part-time job, though one in which you will most likely not be getting paid. During your Dessert everyone in the circle automatically falls in love with you and praises your efforts, and the new women you are screening for inviting are so impressed as you describe the empowering aspects of your experience that they jump at the chance to get in, in the hopes of one day becoming like you. The unspoken circle journey becomes a fascinating host ground of ghost projections, both positively and negatively on the woman who is now seated in this position. It is assumed that as Dessert you are now “empowered and well-trained enough” to magnetize to you the equivalent of 8 times your original gift as well as new highly qualified women, to have both your spiritual and financial cake as Dessert (which while you are in Appetizer sounds like an opportunity to have a massive orgasm in outer space to the tune of $40,000 magically falling in your lap while trumpeting angels sing your praises and tell you that you’ve finally reached the promise land of your dreams. ) and to then move through quickly enough so that you keep the circle splitting at a “good pace.” You have also now received an additional packet of documents which contain even more detailed information about protocols as well as knowledge of ways that this has gotten fucked up in the past, some of which you were never made aware of or bothered investigating upon your first invitation, because you were told that everything on the net related to circle was left there to dis-empower women and create a glass ceiling around your potential avenue to expansion. But this new document is buried in a large pile of digital documents spouting new age rhetoric with the most gorgeous words in the English language around it. Your heart is in your throat and yet you set it aside. By this point you have taught yourself to regard this kind of thing as baggage that belongs to someone else. You are now up to your ears in an ocean of new-age exercises that may or may not be working, and Legalese gray area through which you are swimming along now as the fearless leader of your lineage. You have been successfully trained both directly and indirectly on how to regard information, how to communicate, how much to emphasize and leave out of certain documents while inviting, and how to handle the doubts and fears that other less experienced new invites may come with. You are also now incredibly wise and compassionate with the women you are traveling with. Capable of hearing everyone’s stories of suffering, and sharing yours, but now from a well pruned seat of entitlement in which you are given full permission to candidly bitch every now and then to your Entrees ( the two women who support Dessert ) about when the next gift is coming in. Yikes! It all happened so quickly. You have arrived at true leadership.

( * Below is Andrew Jones amazing painting, illuminating his take on Circle Culture and the Pyramid structure’s exponential growth. Below the image is a link to his blog post on the same subject.)

I feel that if those who have become very successful at this in the last years would like to take a courageous and humble step forward now, this would be a good time to give as many women back their original gifting money as possible. It will save a lot of relationships, needless blame, heartache and personal debt, and I’m sure much more, as this pyramid scheme continues unfolding and ultimately crumbling. If we are going to repair our real circles of community and rebuild trust, I feel that it would be best to not blame any particular person, and begin grounding into an awareness of the ways social sicknesses like this go viral and get completely out of hand. I sincerely hope we can discover ways to co-exist that do not require a foundation of secrecy and group think programming.

* Scott graciously did the math for us. It is also in the comment section along with his additional invitation to the Women’s Wisdom circle community.

“Aloha everyone,
I wanted to take a moment and share the math of why this circle or pyramid schemes don’t work…math has always been a gift to me…
So you sign up your 8 people (women), and then If those 8 people (women) get 8 people that is now 64 people. If 64 people get 8 people that is 512 people…now lets play this out…
1 getting 8 = 8 people
8 getting 8 = 64 people
64 getting 8 = 512 people
512 getting 8 = 4096 people
4096 getting 8 = 32,768 people
32,768 getting 8 = 262,144 people
262,144 getting 8 = 2,097,152 people
2,097,152 getting 8 = 16,777,216 people
16,777,216 getting 8 = 134,217,728 people
134,217,728 getting 8 = 1,073,741,824 people (over 1 billion people)
1,073,741,824 getting 8 = 8,589,934,592 people (8 billion people!)

This is now more people than on planet earth, let alone just women…in the 10th and 11th generations, it passes the entire earth population if allowed to play out…

Even if 2 get 2, in the 32nd generation it passes the entire earth population.

So ask yourself…even if you get paid in this scheme, how would you feel as the numbers approach the deeper levels knowing an exponential amount of people will lose at some point due to your gain. How loving and conscious is that? I get the community aspect and women seeking self empowerment. But this is not it!”

– Scott Malis

Thank You.

Lindsey Vona

* Please note : Comments are welcome. Everyone who wishes to comment must give their actual name. Anonymous comments and those usingpseudonym’s will be removed.

98 thoughts on “Addressing The Women’s Wisdom Circle Pyramid”

First — Massive respect for voicing your experience in the posi-positive way that you did. I was surprised not to see a lot of “charge” around some undoubtedly challenging emotional situations and the writing was nicely narrative like in the most natural sense so I trust it should be received in that manner. *high five*

Second, holy sh** I never thought this would happen especially considering the close-closed-off’ness of these types of communities and it just means it’s time for that power, self-worth, love, courage and vulnerability to be the shining way-shower in each woman’s heart as each woman themselves in their own life re-jumpstart.

Big Love,
-Totally not a woman and grateful now other women can have this voice/viewpoint to be supported by in their own new path to grace.

Wow Lindsey!!! Totally fantastic!!! I am so happy you are paying forward our talk…I will forward this link to others who get introduced to the circle as the number one way they sell this scam is through stories, hopefully your stories will be a counter story that will prevent others from even getting started….
Hopefully everything else is falling into place for you! I’m in Washington state for the summer, hen can’t wait to get back to Hawaii this fall…be well…Scott

Thank You Scott, for the incredible gift you offered to my life with our talk. I will never forget it. Hopefully we can keep in contact and I promise to send you my album once it’s complete. Much Love. Lindsey

Aloha everyone,
I wanted to take a moment and share the math of why this circle or pyramid schemes don’t work…math has always been a gift to me…
So you sign up your 8 people (women), and then If those 8 people (women) get 8 people that is now 64 people. If 64 people get 8 people that is 512 people…now lets play this out…
1 getting 8 = 8 people
8 getting 8 = 64 people
64 getting 8 = 512 people
512 getting 8 = 4096 people
4096 getting 8 = 32,768 people
32,768 getting 8 = 262,144 people
262,144 getting 8 = 2,097,152 people
2,097,152 getting 8 = 16,777,216 people
16,777,216 getting 8 = 134,217,728 people
134,217,728 getting 8 = 1,073,741,824 people (over 1 billion people)
1,073,741,824 getting 8 = 8,589,934,592 people (8 billion people!)

This is now more people then on planet earth, let alone just women…in the 10th and 11th generations, it passes the entire earth population if allowed to play out…

Even if 2 get 2, in the 32nd generation it passes the entire earth population.

So ask yourself…even if you get paid in this scheme, how would you feel as the numbers approach the deeper levels knowing an exponential amount of people will lose at some point due to your gain. How loving and concious is that? I get the community aspect and women seeking self empowerment. But this is not it!

So here is the real challenge I pose to women who want to change the world….stop doing the stupid and rotten things men have created, and be the part of humanity who rise above this type of greed and selfishness. Set an example of love and true gifting, that is giving without expecting anything in return. This gifting circle is not gifting at all…it is investing expecting a return of 800%. I am sure Wall Street would even love an 800% return…

So thank you Goddesses for giving everyone life, and for caring for the next generation, for showing everyone love, caring and nurturing. I can’t imagin a world without the contribution of women. So thank you to all the women! But women please don’t stup to the worst of men, to feel empowered. Just keep teaching our young to be loving, conscious and respectful, and know that positive change is happening!!!

ehhhh…guys…I know you mean well with your “mathematical/mechanical/reductions/macho/logical” interpretation of these “circle dynamics”, but you have it wrong and now you’re “forcing” me to come out and explain it to you all…and why this circle is a good thing. What gets me most is how you can actually believe that you are not already in a pyramid scheme when it is exactly how yOUR money system is setup HEEHEE. Have you all studied alternative currency systems? Did you ever hear about the Kala Currency project that was gonna be developed in Puna? Well, readup because these are systems that do what currency systems are supposed to do: STIMULATE CASHFLOW (fluid exchange of money…no hording). In essence, that is all the Women’s Circle is doing…it is stimulating the flow of money…the exchange of money, which is what keeps economies healthy and doing so within a culture of DESERVING and SUPPORT. The best part about it is that the women are not forced to submit themselves to “whatever” other pyramid scheme they are certain to be the losers in. You know, like the one where you buy things that IMMEDIATELY depreciate…in this economy almost everyone is a loser. In the women’s circle economy, the women are moving the money and this money goes wherever the women it deem it important, which could be the top, or the bottom. The important thing is that money is not stuck and keeps changing hands coming back around and around. Sure, this is not meant so that the women just live off of gifts—bad girl if you are. It is ultimately meant as a stimulant because it has always been known that putting money in the hands of “MOTHERS” types is the stuff that makes economies tick (just look at all the micro loan operations…which I hate, because ultimately its driven by bankers. You see, these women take this money and they put it to work which likely generates more money. Don’t forget it: SOMEONE IS ALWAYS GONNA LOSE…especially in this culture where all the toys/tech used depend on exploitation and rape of everything imaginable. Even as I type I have to accept that someone took in the ASS so I could have a computer…but that’s another story…let’s not go there because if we do, MONEY AIN’T GONNA MATTER and neither will Women’s Circles, because women will have access to abundant NON-CURRENCY economies of food, people, love, water, etc. which is mostly what they’ve always cared about most if in touch with their sacred feminine. Women’s Circles are necessary in this choking economy of scarcity.

So, Scott, it is clear that you are a man. Your “math” is superbly linear and MASCULINE…therefore shallow. You do not know how to weigh in a TON of other variables that come into play (mainly how the top cycles to the bottom in all natural systems unlike the Fractional Reserve system)…at some point, if someone makes me, I’ll probably have to explain this shit in more detail…after all, I am a backer and would hate to loose thanks to this ONE DIMENSIONAL math theory. Like you, that’s where I was way back when…it wasn’t til years later that I was able to understand how something like this CAN, in fact, work. The main issue here, is that you see the pyramid as a never changing structure, which is never true. Everywhere in the universe there is hierarchy which one must accept, you are always at various stages, all equally important, if allowed to flow, everyone gets a chance to carry the largest chunk (be at the “top”)…if allowed to flow, the pyramid doesn’t get stuck like it is now where THE SAME FUCKING PEOPLE STAY AT THE TOP all the time—precisely why they got clever and why they’ve instilled in you the rejection of the same means which they have convinced you are reserved JUST FOR THEM TO USE. Perhaps you’ll come back and say that there’s much better system of “equality”, but let me speak on behalf of the plants and animals you eat: BULLSHIT! Life flows. It is a proven fact that some must die so that others may live. For example, when I gave my gift, I “died” in a way…but someone else lived on…and I will be reborn…and so will the 5K…but not for you, because you can’t gift it…you think some big mama cass is getting rich up top Heehee!

The Women’s Circle…and GIFTING in general is a natural and abundant part of this flow without ridiculous conditions set out by society which end up putting people/women who don’t fit the square peg in situations of scarcity which then affect subsequent generations over and over again…which stimulates greed, hoarding, competition, etc. Is this what you like instead?

Now, when it comes to gossip and lady BS, which is at an all time high it seems, that’s another problem altogether which should be addressed separately in their support meetings. Surely the more women get scooped from the scum ponds they’ve been subjected to live in, the more “issues” will arise…but I say WOMEN!!! RISE TO THE CHALLENGE AND WITH THIS CASHFLOW STIMULATE YOUR HEALING AND THAT OF YOUR CHILDREN AND TEACH THIS SYSTEM OF ABUNDANCE. IF THIS IS DONE WITH HEART, WE’LL COME TO LIVE IN A WORLD ONE DAY WHERE WE JUST GIFT AND RECEIVE AND GIFT AND RECEIVE. That is how it should be “noble ones”. If there’s problems in this circle it is only because the members have not totally healed. As a backer I have not lost if I gave a gift of $5. I believe that money entered a woman’s life, she created some abundance for herself and others, and this abundance will someday make its way back to me…wanna bet?

GIFT GIFT GIFT!!! It ALWAYS comes back…keep the money flowing amongst yourselves for the purpose of healing…with utmost vigilance that the work of the heart is being done with integrity. In this way, no woman’s circle will every have been a mistake. UNITE…persist despite this article. Quit yo complainin’ and do something productive with those gifts!!! And if you’re the “loser” who can’t get a backer, go make the damn money and gift it! Feels good to give Fed Notes to a stranger. I simply say: YOUR PROBLEM NOW, MAMA! LOL!

Women’s math vs men’s math??? WTF? Really? There is only one math…just as there is only one earth. Are there laws of universe that apply to men vs women? Does gravity effect a man differently than a women? Just so we are clear, I believe you (Huitzilin) are a good person with a good heart, as am I, as is Lindsey. We all want to see a better planet with more consciousness and love. With that said, I hope all who read this blog thread will use a bit of reasoning and not deny math or the laws of the universe.
As a man I truly consider myself a feminist. I truly support and do all I can to support true equality and respect between the sexes and races. Your reasoning makes no sense. So let me get this straight…because other parts of the economy we all feel is unjust because they are a pyramid scheme, like Wall Street, our banking system, the military and corporate America among others, so that justifies you all stooping to that level. By me coming out against this scam is not an endorsement of other parts of our economy that are unjust. An eye for an eye makes two blind people, two wrongs don’t make a right…
Gifting is giving without expecting anything in return. There are many people who give their money and/or their time to a cause they feel good about supporting. We all have helped others without expecting anything in return, and when we do, what we get back is a wonderful feeling that we made a difference. It has been shown that true giving to others is one of the main factors in living a happy and rewarding life. I am all for making a difference in the world and I know most of us are doing what we can to improve the world, and I truly feel that the world is getting more concious everyday, more loving, more caring. We still have a long way to go, but we have come a long way in the last 50-100 years on most things. And the reason things are getting better is because like us, we are waking up to social equality issues, caring more about the environment and creating a more balanced & loving energy.
To be clear I have done gifting programs before, I am not proud of it. I invited my friends and family into it and in the end the math dictated it would not hold up. It was one of the toughest things in my life when I had to make it right with my network. I ended up paying back as much of the people’s money I lost them as I could. It was one of toughest things I have ever had to do. I lost friends over this, and other friends and family I had a rough time making it right with, and I had to rebuild my trust with my inner circle. So if you are thinking of joining this gifting program, just ask yourself a few questions…
1. How will I feel and what will I do when I lose my and/or my networks money?
2. Am I truly gifting if I expect an 800% return on my investment?
3. Would I want to make money knowing someone or many others will eventually lose their money…see my 11 generation and the whole planet is in it.
4. Is there really a women’s math and a men’s math?
5. If you are truly into gifting $5000, is giving the money to some random woman (many of which have cycled numerous times), the number one charity you would want to support. How about supporting a women’s shelter, helping women in 3rd world countries, educating other women who don’t have access to a good education, helping the environment or any number of great causes…then ask yourself what will be the fallout of giving money to charity vs the potential fallout of inviting your network into an unsustainable scam.
6. Am I willing to risk doing something totally illegal? Ripping someone off for $5000 is a felony! VS giving money to charity is not only legal, but universally respected, and you even get a tax write-off as the system wants to encourage people to truly gift to charity.
Just so you know where my heart is. I have a degree in sustainable economics from the Evergreen State college in Olympia, WA. I have been very successful in my life and I do feel it is very important to give back. I coach people with their finances and with life coaching. My business card top line reads “assisting the 99% to be free and live their dreams.” When Lindsey contacted me, I spoke to her for 3 hours about not only this gifting program but even more about living her dreams, and making a difference in the world. When she asked me what I charged per hour for my coaching, I told her to pay it forward. That is true gifting…and I am so proud of her speaking out…she has truly paid it forward. How will you pay it forward?
Lindsey, I just want to publicly say…you are awesome…you have such courage and strength. I know you are getting blow back from blowing the whistle. Thank you for making a difference in the world and setting a wonderful example for not only the women of the world, but also inspiring men like me…
With Love and Aloha, Scott

Again…really…men’s math vs women’s math????????
There is just math…just take out a calculator and do 8×8 11 times…
I truly feel sorry for any person who thinks that math is somehow different for men and women. Women…please, please, please don’t buy into that bullshit…
As a man I have a feminine side. I have feelings, I cry when I am sad, I enjoy nurturing others, and I strive for caring and empathy. What is so cool about the time we live in is that both men and women are both getting in touch with our inner men and women. That is why humanity is evolving so quickly.
I sometimes joke to people that English is my 2nd language, and when they ask what my first language is…I say with a smile, “numbers”…I could do math problems before I could read or write. I was doing calculus problems in jr. high. Math is a gift to me. To me gambling, lotteries, gifting circles are taxes on people who are bad at math. And yet I still got sucked into gifting programs because I got (con)vinced that we were creating prosperity for all. I suspended the math that told me otherwise, because I wanted to believe prosperity would come to all…well in the end math won, it always does…math/numbers does not care if you are a man or women, your race or anything else. Math applies to all…PERIOD!!!

So please women don’t let anyone tell you men’s math doesn’t apply to you…math is not male or female…it just is what it is… 8×8 will always be 64. 64×8 will always be 512 and so on…would you really feel ok if 512 lose money so you and the the first 64 people under you could all make money. Would you really feel ok if 4096 people lose $5,000 so you and 512 others could make $40,000. Don’t you see it only gets worse the father it goes. Once you pay your $5000 the best thing that can happen is that you lose your money without it playing out in deeper levels where there will continuously be more and more losers. This why these are illegal, because there are real losers. The losers are not the ones promoting this scam…notice if you bring up the losers, the winners will say that they needed more healing or more prosperity and that was their downfall. So not only does the victim lose their money, but then they are blamed for not being good enough. How fucked up is that?
So don’t just ask your heart, also ask your brain if you should either do this or continue this down the line. When my heart and head agree I have found I make my best choices in life. When it is only heart or only in my head I choose from…I have found things did not work out too good…
With Love and Aloha, Scott

The Women’s Circle—or any circle of the gift giving nature—can only work if centered and driven from the heart. If the women “fall” into fear thought patterns mostly driven by male mentality, it will break down like ANY OTHER system is not infallible and needs dedicated protection. The system is only as good as the “beings” that employ it to generate energy flows. Men of this time are the primary enemy to the women’s circle, not because they are men, but because we’ve been made vey dysfunctional and incomplete in our thinking. Those who can understand number in the hundreds.

AND

There is no such thing as the 99%. That is utter foolishness. If anything, there is 1% of people who are not imprisoned in their own minds.

AND

Some things must die so that others may live. This is the way and the circle is in balance with it.

Ayayay Scotty…get ready…we going down a rabbit hole ride…we gonna give you the red pill LOL! it’s gonna be FUN! Sure, may the best “truth” win…if your arguments pan out against my challenges (which I will submit in as good order as possible), I will surrender and apologize to all the “poor women who have been victimized by this circle that you say is just a stiff and manly pyramid”, but do understand that you are threatening a system, which you OBVIOUSLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND, that I believe in and believe to be essential to the birthing of a new era of true balance and reciprocity. You’ll have to apologize if in the end you lose this debate. If you don’t, well, you will be out of balance. In the meantime, consider the following two mathematical concepts: pure mathematics vs. applied mathematics. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_mathematics vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_mathematics) What do yo consider a Theoretical Physicist vs an Engeineer? Do you have a degree in Theoretical Physics? Well, that’s when you’ll understand how FEMININE your so called “asexual” and perfect math actually can be. The whole of math is the whole, but ALL WHOLES are composed, by UNIVERSAL LAW, by the perfect union of the ying yang…as much as each has it’s one space and place, it is never separate and forms a whole…however, both must exist in order to balance the other. Therefore, there is a feminine aspect of math and by no means does that imply that it’s not “solvable”…it just isn’t solvable by minions like you. Women have a better chance because they are closer to the heart, in general, than you and me are. That is why so many women have joined the circle and speak of success.

This is just the beginning of how I’m taking your arguments and breaking them down one by one…so be patient…I’m up for the task. Cheers!

To the lady that that says “The truth is always simple. What’s complex is usually false.” (her name is Eden on this thread)…let me ask you the following:

If you first gazed upon something like, say this http://cl.ly/image/1c061r0k0M2Y, which, btw, is “the truth” would you quickly be able to extrapolate the “simple” concepts it came from? In other words, could you just willy nilly draw that shit up since it is so “simple”? Right, I didn’t think so. Stay tuned…you won’t regret it.

The truth may be simple, but it is not simple to see.

This lack of understanding, Scott, is coming from what I call the great STUNTING of transcendental vision which now causes you to jump into your fear band-wagon. Give me time and I’ll explain your bad experience, but you’ll have to give me more detail about it. Thank you for stepping into my territory 😉

First off…if you cannot write back in a respectful way…then this will be my final response. I would assume part of this new grand world you speak of would include non violent communication. I don’t care if you disagree with me, but don’t attack me personally. In fact when you speak to me in a disrespectful way, I know you are losing the debate and resorting to harsh tactics.
My only loyalty is to truth. I love women, I respect women, I truly want women to be a catalyst of chance. In fact I tell the women in my life…this is your time. In a democracy, women are 52% of the voting population and even higher since many more men have felonies and can’t vote. So women if united could win every election moving forward. Then women could see some amazing changes.
This is the time for women…on top of this women are the primary teachers/mothers of our youth, so women can teach the children new ways of being in the world that is more balanced. That is my take on things…doing a $5000 Ponzi scheme is not the solution leading us to anything but making a bunch of money for a few people making it off the masses.
I get that there is personal growth and support happening. I get that people talk about their dreams are surrounded by loving and supportive people. That is the real hook…what bothers me is that women can gather and do this without the Ponzi scheme. I would recommend all my female friends join a group or club that did all that without the funneling of money to people at the top.
So I wanted you to know my experience with gifting programs…in the late 1990’s I was in my network marketing/gifting program years. It was a very growthful time in my life. I started in legal network marketing companies.
After some time, a friend came to me and told me how this gifting program he was offering was better then network marking because there was no product to sell, but selling someone their dreams. Even though I had reservations, I went along with it, because I was studying abundance and prosperity, and the people in the gifting program were so loving, so welcoming, so incuraging me to live my dreams.
It was actually easy for me to want to invite my network into it. So I did, I was actually fairly successful at it. So much so that a friend of mine offered me to start our own gifting program. We spent months building it.
At the same time I was in a legal network marketing company and was recruited by the owner of a new company that taught people how to save money legally on their taxes. It was a great value…the product was $750 and taught the average person to save $3-10,000 a year for the rest of your life. The owner of this company was a multi-millionaire from network marketing, he owned a company that build systems for other new start up companies. He was an actuarial by profession. An actuarial is a specialized accountant who does probability odds. As such he and his company created compensation plans for other network marketing and gifting programs.
As I said he was a mentor to me. I was one of his top reps in his tax company. One day I was talking how the math of comp plans worked. I was trying to get his take on our gifting program and our comp plan. Then he broke it down to me…what he taught me is the 8 getting 8 equals 11 generations the planet is in it, if only 2 get 2 in the 32nd generation the whole planet is in it. He went over concepts called leakage, he went over the stats of how most of these comp plans are designed to make a few rich people from a lot of masses of people who lose. He talked about how all the money comes from new people, it does not appear from the money fairy. How all gifting programs are created to make as much money for a few people until they are shut down by the Feds…then the people at the top just start a new one.
This was a slobbering moment for me…all I wanted was my dreams and my networks dreams to come true. But then I saw that I was not helping them get their dreams by promoting a scam. So I then did one of the most courageous things I ever did. I blew the whistle, I sent an email to everyone in my downline and up line explaining why I was no longer going to promote this anymore. I quit the new gifting program I was co-creating and my partners then went on it to do it without me. I paid back as many of the loses as I could, digging into my reserves to do it.
Some friends totally respected me for doing this and others lost respect for me. I went from a team leader who actually even hosted the recruiting calls, and went from being called a star. I was referred to…if this young man can do it, so can you. I was truly loved and respected by my peers in the gifting program. But as soon as I questioned the math, I was ostracized by people who days earlier were my friends. My character was attacked, I was called names like a cancer, an asshole, a hypocrite as I made money but then came out against it.
Looking back, it was one of the most empowering things I ever did. Standing up for what was right. Taking shit for speaking my truth. I lost some friends, others I gained even more respect from. But it turned my life upside down. But these lessons gave me the strength to have success in the rest of my life. I committed to live my dreams, but I had to do it in a win-win way. I had to be able to know that I was creating value in the world.
Prosperity is so simple in this world…just create value for others and the money will flow. The more value we create, then abundance comes to us…there is no need to promote a scam…just provide a value to others and so many good things will happen for us.
In 1998 I was at Britenbush hot spring in Oregon and heard about this women’s gifting circle where you put in $5000 and got out $40,000. The women who came to me was a close friend and wanted me to look at it since she knew that I had spent a lot of time in that realm. I was able to explain in a way she easily understood that she should not do it. Over the last 15 years I have continually heard many versions of this same women’s gifting circle scam. I think it is interesting that when the economy crashes, these programs flourish. That the women I know in this can least afford to lose $5000. Many of these women are in debt, or single moms, or lacking in money. They see this as a solution to their financial problems. The worst part is that women who actually get the $40,000 then go on the calls and share an emotional story of how this was a miracle for them. Facts tell, but stories sell. These stories are so powerful to a person who is in a tight spot in their life.
And finally they convince you that everything else is a pyramid too, so there is nothing wrong with what we are doing. I have read many post on this blog where people write all the problems of the world as justification for doing this…how does GMO’s, corn syrup, environmental damage, etc justify this scam? Again 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
I don’t like parts of our economic systems, I eat mostly organic food, I don’t like war or the way Wall Street works for a select few…but we the liberated conscious beings who are here to bring forth a better reality have a responsibility to promote the real changes we want to see. If Ponzi schemes are your solution, then we are fucked moving forward.
Talk about taking the red pill…I’ve eaten the red pill, I went very deep down the rabbit hole, and had to battle to get back out. The red pill gave me a huge hangover. That red pill was toxic and addicting.
You will never convince me that this is a good thing. I will also close with, if anyone on this page who is reading this actually met me or Lindsey, I’m sure we would be friends and there would be respect and we would agree on a lot more about the world then we would disagree on. I’m not the enemy of you, of women, or of equality.
The world I want to see is one where love, honesty, respect, equality are the basis of our reality. From those places all of our problems will be solved.
With Love and Aloha, Scott

And PS…Fear is not a male trait…it is a human trait…and fear is not always bad, many times it tells you doing something is not the right thing to do. This male vs female thing is counter productive if the goal is unity and oneness. So all this talk of fear is male, there are male and female math…this is all ridiculous. Does your heart or brain really think/feel that males created or are the ones who fear exclusively. I put up a very simple math model that anyone can do on a simple calculator. Why don’t you show me your math formula how I am wrong. I don’t need to go into deeper levels of math to show my point… Arithmetic does just fine…but I love math…so please show us all your mastery of math and prove your case…I can’t wait to see it…please explain how 8×8 (11 times) does not equal over 8 billion people. Please show me where the cash flow of the money is not with an 8 to 1 ratio going to the top? Please explain in math terms how this is sustainable for the people who get in on the 11th level, who do they sign up, the women of Venus? Don’t just resort to name calling…show me the math…show me the money…show me something actually based on reality and truth.
With Love and Aloha, Scott

OK Scott, I’ll try 😉 However, be advised that this writing is more for the women you are affecting with your stunted vision than for you, so feel free to step out. I’m here for the same reason…and no, I haven’t yet read the dissertations you just wrote. I’m on the road at the moment. I may have time tomorrow. Trust me, you’ll get a response you won’t be able to not read. Please hold back on your irrelevant mathematical analysis of the “pyramid disguised as a circle” until I have had a chance to explain it to you and then you can break out your multiplication tables.

And, being since you don’t know me and I don’t know you, just stick around for the fight. I’m not attacking…yes, perhaps I’m poking fun, but I don’t mean it maliciously. You saying you’re gonna step out of the ring with me is like someone in the UFC stepping out of the wring because someone gave them the mean eye when it is expected as part of the showmanship. Geez! Where’s your competitive spirit my friend? BTW, could you point out where I was “disrespectful”? I can’t find it 🙂 It will help me avoid similar statements. And BTW, NVC hardly applies here because you and I don’t have a conflict. We have a DEBATE…and int a DEBATE, feelings DON’T MATTER…only what can be possible truth. If you come around and tell me: “Oooh, what you just told me made me feel angry, I’m not gonna be a part of this.” I’ll be like: “Say what? That’s a lame response.” You see, if “my truth” which clearly opposes yours pisses you off, that’s your problem, not mine. I’m not standing here ONLY telling what your doing is making angry, I’m gonna give you reasons…forget my anger. That’s my problem and I’m gonna try to not shove into this. Now, if I called you a Panda Bear and that offends you, then I’ll be like: “Sorry for calling you a Panda Bear. I was only poking fun.” And I’ll resume debate protocol. Sound good?

Now I’m sleeping…tomorrow, I’ll begin to address this point by point. It might be long…but I’ll try to keep it short.

Oh…this should be good. It’s like a debate I once had with someone who was big into homeopathic remedies…they claimed to have deep insider knowledge about “how the universe really worked, man…this is going to blow your socks off if you’re really ready to hear it…totally dude…”

But in the end, the world does actually have certain immutable laws. And just like a 30X solution of arnica has no chance of affecting anything in your body due to basic laws of physics, so does math not take sides, and a ‘giving circle’/pyramid, will and always does fail for everyone not in the upper positions.

I find it funny that while people will rely on technologies like, say, the laptop they type on, and accept that innumerable scientific/mathematical laws and principles allow the technology to exist, that scientific principles are somehow non-applicable to things they don’t want them to apply to.

Seriously, reading your responses, Huitzillin, is going to be more entertaining in a trashy way than watching Showgirls, Troll 2 or The Room. I’d better stock up on popcorn.

LOL! Won’t it!!? Heehee! In fact, I think the only thing more entertaining than my responses in this debate will be you eating your foot for dinner the day you read them.

A bit about your science bubble…First, your comment is out of integrity with what you claim to rest all your faith on. On the one hand, you mention being a ‘science person’ which by definition would utilize logic and common sense before making assumptions about anything…especially me whom, you don’t know and have not even heard an explanation from…you, my dear ‘great’ scientist, have embarrassed the scientific community as a whole. No scientist would make conclusions about another until he/she has heard from him/her…you just wasted four paragraphs writing based on an assumed premise that you have made up…cynically, if I may add. Remember this: http://youtu.be/2I0QN-FYkpw ? Well, you ain’t no Peter Schiff, I can tell you that. Did you ever stop to think I might actually have some science that you haven’t been able to wrap your “science” head around? Well, I would have stopped, and I ain’t no Einstein.

Huitzilin,
I wish you would just post your mathematical model and get on with it…I truly can’t wait to see it…
While you are at it, would you be willing to share your connection to the women’s circle…obviously you or someone close to you is benefiting in some way or another from this…
I have no desire to rat anyone out, I just want the truth to be out there so people (women) can make an informed choice…blogs like this is why I love the Information Age…it’s harder and harder to scam people when so many eyes are watching…
So I request no more going after people for their skeptism of you…please speak now or hold your peace…I saw your you-tube video…what does that have to do with this??? Are you trying to prove that the subprime mortgage market was a bubble and crashed the economy…well speaking of unsustainable bubbles crashes, this gifting circle is a prime example…I wonder what the guy on your you-tube who predicted the 2008 economic crash would think of this Ponzi scheme??? I doubt he would support it…
I’m not looking to go back and forth with you…so for the most part I have said I want I need to say, it is your turn to educate us on your perspective if you can actually show anything based in reality…
Waiting for your non linear “female math”… Lol…hehehe

I have VERY little time right now…it’s midnight and I’m responding barely awake…just having some fun, which doesn’t mean I’m not taking this seriously, but putting on my math brain/hat is something I’m doing tomorrow afternoon and maybe even Sunday. About the video: I was trying to show Mr Anon what happens to the cynics…ignore all else. Peter Schiff had some “math”, he told everyone he had that “math”, and they cynically laughed in his face…and then guess what? What ended up happening is pretty much exactly what he said was going to happen…

GNight…see you all hopefully tomorrow or sunday! Yes, I know I’ve said I’ll deliver and I will, but please ya’ll be patient. It’s not like a woman’s gonna die here. Take a deep breath.

And Anon: this is not about “having so much knowledge”…which I did not say, btw. This is so simple you’re gonna feel stupid for not being able to figure it out on your own.

Look at the end of the comments. I have posted my “mathematical model”. It’s probably a work in progress and in it I have not addressed all your points and questions, however, some of them you will find answered. Later on this week, I will try to comb thru you posts and answer all your arguments. Aloha!

Wow…ok…how did I know this would be your solution to all this…I actually knew you were going to say this, but I wanted to wait until you said it so I could shoot it down….here is some more universal math for you…again…nothing fancy…just multiplication schedule anyone can do on a basic calculator…

So lets say the original person (women) who starts this signs up her 8 folks…but then she lets assume gifts 2 people back into it. By the way how much did that original women pay to start? Nothing!!! HELLO!!! By the way she is the one who should be put in jail…ok…so she paid nothing, but got 8 folks to pay. Then gifted $10k of her $40k to help 2 others join who could not afford it. By the way many times the ones who recycle the money and help someone else in, ask for the money back when the women actually cycles through, many times even with interest. Something like I will gift you the 5k, but when you get your $40k, then give me back $10k since I helped you in…again more investing, not really gifting….but at the least they ask for their $5k back. But lets assume that is not going on, but it is really the first women signing up 8 women with her then recycling 2 more in…By the way the math I am presenting does not care if the women actually gifts someone new in, or re-signs up for another go around herself, either way that is recycling the existing money back in…but what feeds this truly is the NEW money coming in…

here is the math…very simple…

8-2=6 (can we agree 8-2=6?) or is this more male math?
So 6 pay, 2 get in for free.
If 6 get 6 instead of 11 generations until you have more people then planet earth has, now it takes 12 generations to hit 2 billion plus people, and the 13th generation has 13 billion plus people. That is now 2 earths.

Ok so lets say, the women gift 4 women back in instead of 2.
8-4=4
So 4 pay, 4 are recycled and get in for free…
If 4 get 4 instead of 11 generation like 8×8…now it takes 16 generations to have over 4 billion women in it, and the 17th generation is over 16 billion women.

The math you are suggesting only delays this a few generations…that is why I wrote…even 2 getting 2 is only delaying it to the 32nd generation till you have more people then on the planet. In fact from my story of the gifting program I was going to co-create, was a 2×2 matrix, rather then the 8×8 matrix this Ponzi scheme uses. I remember saying to my mentor…everyone can sign up 2 people…who does not know 2 people? And our buy in was only $100. My mentor said to me that 2 don’t get 2 over time. I said I could sign up 20 people, why could everyone not do at least their 2? That was when he told me that 2 getting 2 in 32 generation the whole planet would be in it…so he said, 2 don’t get 2 over time…me getting 20 to sign up did not mean 2 could get 2 indefinitely. So I can only imagine what my mentor would think of 8 getting 8 with a $5000 buy in…

I hope this truly clears this up once and for all…no matter how you slice it or dice it…the numbers just don’t work…and that is why in a capitalist country like ours, these are illegal…now again Wall Street also bust itself with this same math…but that is a different story…so the best you can say who are all doing this gifting circle is that you are on par with Wall Street…but is that what you all inspire to do? Be worse then the stock market? One up the stock market? Even with the stock market you are at least investing in a business hopefully with real assets and real value. When companies lie about their assets and values, those companies are suppose to get in trouble with the law…just like the woman or women who started this should be in trouble too…but like a Wall Street CEO…they will profit and mostly get in no trouble…while others down the line take the loses…

Scott, if I may, clearly I agree with you on all points in terms of the sustainability being impossible, the immorality of it, etc. But there is one point I can’t agree on, and that is abdicating responsibility in terms of reporting those you know are involved. If you do know, I firmly believe you have a duty to report them, particularly those at the top who are organizing and recruiting. Why? Because the longer it goes on, the more people are involved. The more people are involved, the more people will be hurt, the larger the pool of people left with nothing. You don’t know who they are or will be, but they are as real as anyone else, and although they have responsibility in terms of their own involvement, suffice to say there are those perhaps gullible enough or desperate enough to need protection. I entreat you to step up and report, with specific names, those whom you may know are involved so as to put a stop to this sooner rather than later.

Aloha Anon,
In many ways I truly understand your desire to stop it all cost before more victims are burned by this. I personally don’t know the people at the top…and from my personal story, I have had history with these myself. I can honestly say I never wanted to rip anyone off when I was involved in these “gifting circles”. So I can say I am glad nobody called the police on me. But when I learned the truth I stopped right away…I know a few women involved (not the leaders of it per se), and these are very kind and sweet ladies. They have no desire to hurt others, they are just uneducated in what they are doing, they are victims themselves. I just am hoping that knowledge is power and those with eyes to see and ears to hear will educate themselves and this Ponzi scheme will implode on it’s own. Also it would be up to the people who got taken for the $5000 to file a police report if they feel truly taken and feel that is their best option to rectify things.
What I hate the most about this particular Ponzi scheme is that it targets alternative Goddesses who many times I feel are really loving and amazing women with caring good-hearted nature…these are not greedy people normally, they are convined that what they are promoting is part of a new world economy, when in fact there is nothing new about these Ponzi schemes…
But I will add…karma and the universe has a way of settling all this…I know in the justice will be served in its own way, and I trust that process…
Part of my Karma/Darma from my journey with these gifting programs is to educate others…so again I am glad nobody called the police on me, and now I am paying it back by being an out-spoken voice about how these things really work…

By the way…
Peter Schiff I think much more represents archetype of the role Lindsey and I (and others) are playing in this “debate”. We are the one warning of a coming crash, of a bubble about to pop. You are the one who sounds like the people who were saying 2008 was going to be a good year and to buy bank stocks, and real estate was about to have a good year.
Thanks for showing us that…you should re-watch that Peter Schiff video again…again if he was on this blog I am 100% sure he would join the debate on our side…
Again I can’t wait to see your easy math…if it is so easy and simple why don’t you just bust it out…it took me 5 mins to bust out my math formula…and most of that time was just writing out all 11 generations…I’m not sure what is easier then 8x8x8x8x8x8x8x8x8x8x8=
Equals over twice as many women currently alive on earth even including kids…
So please don’t comment again until you give us the info you promised…if it so simple then stop delaying…
With Love and Aloha, Scott

Wow – this is a powerful post. Thank you for candidly sharing your experience. The truth is always simple. What’s complex is usually false.

I joined one of these a few years back. A woman I looked up to invited me and I was so flattered. It was at a time in my life where losing $5,000 was no big deal. I wrote the check to the dessert and then got this sick feeling in my stomach.

I tried to ignore it but my lawyer boyfriend pointed out that the circle was a pyramid. I suddenly had a vision of what it would be like to run my own circle and be dessert, feeling my personal responsibility for 8 women’s investments (something I did not grok during the recruiting process!)

That was enough to have me cancel the check and drop out.

I don’t believe that life is rational or that I can explain everything. Maybe the circles can work, and maybe the scientific evidence clearly showing that the math doesn’t work out is just another illusion.

But that feeling in the pit of my stomach, now that’s something I trust with all my heart.

Thank you for this. You are amazing for putting this together. Many many of my bay area sisters are part of these circles and convinced they are doing a good thing. All my research and education didn’t help so far to open their eyes to this fraud. I hope articles like this will help to spread the word and shed light on this horrible abusive fraud.

When I, years ago, was asked to be in a game like this, it took precisely 3 minutes on google to figure out this was a scam, a crime, and a pile of manure. While I am glad to see you got out, does it not at least hold up a mirror to the depth of self delusion that all the new agey mumbo jumbo speak holds in your life? It took you *how* long to get out, and only after prayer, meditation, spiritual purification, etc.?? If this isn’t a clue that your belief system, somewhere along the way, has gone massively off the rails in terms of how it affects your ability to just use plain common sense and be in touch with reality, what would? Sorry to be hard, but reading this blog entry left me baffled. If something this easily debunked held sway over you, then it is *seriously* time to reexamine other things you believe in, I think. I can’t help but feel there is a definite connection. How many other things have you bought into because they came cloaked in new agey exchange of energy empowerment abundance you’re a goddess trust me I wear patchouli oil….?

Instead of being a jerk on my comment thread, although I can understand the point you are arrogantly trying to make, why don’t you go ask the now thousands of educated women ( and men who are backing them ) that span entire socioeconomic and cultural demographics, who are now involved in and supporting it’s continuance, why they think it’s such a great thing to keep going? This is a place for people to feel safe in gathering insight and knowledge from a first-person perspective. The people that are reading this are most likely people who are currently also in the process of watching their communities and families become deeply affected by “circle-culture.” I wrote this account as a way for people to also begin getting a sense of the power of unconscious rank and greed, in a world-economic system that has conditioned most people, even the best of people, to function either directly or counter-phobically in it’s structure. If you can’t respect this blog post as an educational tool that took courage to write and post, then know that your comments will no longer be welcome on this thread and will be trashed. Have a great day.

Just remember this all women who are considering this…the originator of this type of pyramids scheme was a man. His name was Charles Ponzi. You should google him. That is now why these types of scams are many times referred to as a Ponzi-schemes. The only thing original about this women’s circle is that Charles Ponzi or the Bernie Madoff’s would accept money from anyone, this Ponzi-scheme is just for women…and somehow that makes it different or better???

what is sustainable my dear… oil drilling? not enough oil to drill forever!! burning up fossil fuels? slave labor in china? getting paid poverty level salaries to be teachers? going into 10000000 dollars of debt for education? not having a health care system? corn sugar laden everything? plastic everything?? focus ur energy on solving real world problems if you really care about people. ur energy is obviously fickle and u basically feel however people tell u to feel. the world needs ur help!! go out there and do something about real shit that needs fixed. also get a job . u obviously have way too much time on ur hands. go join a real pyramid scheme! getting paid peanuts to work a job u hate the rest of ur life only to maybe retire and start enjoying life by the time ur eggs have dried up and ur too fragile to do anything adventurous.

Your article is very well written and descriptive albeit cynical. Beyond ponzi this and pyramid that, one thing that is unfortunate is that because of individuals own dark and manipulative motivations, it has turned something that could be ok and has helped people, into something else. On the inside and also by criticism on the outside. Money does change people, its unavoidable. The main issue of course is the law of diminishing returns. What we have here ain’t about peace and love, its about cold hard cash.

As far as spades go, this in essence is gambling. Do people win? hell yes! and lose? You bet your ass (literally). On some final level, it is their own prerogative and their own money to win or lose, and their own lesson. It might be a bit callus, but really I think it is up to each person to take their own chances in their life. Losing 5k is certainly a wake up call, in that A. you could raise it if you wanted to B. If you lose it you wont make that mistake again. You might even play again, but definitely not the same way. Their are no guarantees and all the new age promises in the world wont make a difference. One point you did not mention is that when you choose to leave a circle your gift is returned to you by the next person that come in. Maybe doesn’t always happen but that is the rule, and Women that leave because they feel uncomfortable do have their gift returned to them.

If you want it and are determined, I think it is possible to travel through to the end, but it is a major test and it might not all be pretty. It means digging deep into a lot of aspects of communication, leadership, sales and of course fairness so as not to create karmic debts. Its players at a poker table, all there for the same reason. The idea that it is a guaranteed is foolish and yes, some players will drop out along the way ( gift returned). This does sound insensitive, but my point is money is not for playing around with and it brings with it some very powerful and masculine elements that can be harsh.

I think your assement of the emotional hooks is very accurate and this is a true failing. Never mix business and friendship, this is a cliche because its true. The emotional hooks create a total mess under the brooding storm clouds of cash, its all mixed up. Women’s circle should be free, a business circle should be just that, about business, not breakthroughs and all kinds of other personal issues.

so really:
Why not a business or Entrepeneurs circle? Making some products or investing in land as a group, many possibilities. Not only legal but really possible to make some change. The cash that is coming into the circle could really create some great women owned business, support some great artists, even be invested into gold!etc. With dividend returns spanning years. Instead blowing dessert money on going to festivals and going to asia to live cheaply. blah…but thats another story

These ‘sinister’ sisters you allude to are also creating their own karmic debt and in the end the truth prevails. You sound jealous of women that have gone though ‘a few times’ so obviously it does work. Perhaps their own journey and lesson will be the aquirement and their riches only to have it crashing down due to unforeseen causes. Like the horticuluralist that goes too big and gets busted. Did they invest 5k? easily…greed is its own worst enemy. It does seem to always play out like that….Then again maybe they are in it for greater good of humanity, charity, etc. You just don’t know.

There is good in it, there is bad. Its a gamble. Its not guarenteed by a bank. It is difficult to raise anything like the dessert gift on 1 hour a week work. Women are entering and getting to dessert and receiving their gifts sometimes after months while having to do very little. So it is also important not to undermine that or their own process to fulfilling what they signed up for. You did not like it and chose to leave and i’m assuming got your money back? The tone and details make you sound like an expert, though to be fair and this is not a criticism, you are not an expert since you quit before the end. I wonder if receiving the 40k that you were very close too, stepping out right before dessert would have changed your opinion about it? Of course everyone is more happy once they get that cold hard cash.

CK, the difference is, when you gamble, everyone has the same odds. If you and buy each both buy a lottery ticket, whether I buy it on Thursday and you on Friday, come Saturday we still have the same chance. These gifting pyramids are constructed so that with each level, the odds of getting paid out diminish. It’s great if you’re in early, but shitty if you come in later. I would never ask anyone I know to enter into a financial contract with me knowing they had less of a chance of getting their money than I did. Why? Because I have a conscience.

Lauren, try not to act on your “compellation” until you have heard my explanation of stuff I have alluded to that you are not understanding correctly…not correct perspective.

@bigdawgnamedrespect, Dear Ms. Respect, since you have already blown anonymity out of the water, an important part of the circle, deal with the fact that some people will post things anonymously and they should be allowed to do so. You have put at risk something that to some works and just because it doesn’t work for you and you have found the “little mathematical formula” that proves it, doesn’t mean we are all gonna put our necks on the line. You speak as if this society and culture has nothing but perfect laws. If this society understood the dynamics involved here, which are akin to this society not understanding Marijuana and therefore making those of us who smoke and use it practically CRIMINALS (can you relate?), then it would be just fine to be all “out in the open”. But neither I nor Anon should be expected to speak openly and publicly about something we know this society does not comprehend—yes, the society that got you in a pathetic enough place that when shown the “magic of the circle” you actually saw some hope…because it has given you quite little. Right? Otherwise, why the fuck would you even consider joining? Being public is a risk you are taking and you alone are expected to remain public. I’m not here because I want to be here. I’m here because I have to be here to set the record straight and I will speak with a mask on if I want to. Telling Anon you’ll remove anonymous posts is LAME. What’s important here is that what is being said is evaluated as objectively as possible. We are all after the truth…so be patient and open as to how people prefer to contribute in order to GET TO IT. OK? Thanks you.

Lindsey why are you insisting that other people comment with their real names? What makes you think that you have the obligation to call out the hundreds (or thousands, or whatever) of women who are choosing to be involved in circle of their own free will? I smell a power move underneath your supposedly “humble and brave” intentions…

What of all the women you supposedly care about who are choosing to do this because they are COMPLETELY AWARE OF and believe in what they’re doing? It sounds like you think you’re on some heroic crusade to save women from joining, but like CK said (or at least seems to have implied) above, you are taking away the free will of the women who are involved by stepping over the line from expressing your opinion to taking away others free will to engage in this “discussion” you’re starting privately.

I feel that the point that women are ALLOWED TO RECEIVE THEIR GIFT BACK if they choose to leave is a HUGE oversight in this entire debate. And though I agree that there are discrepancies in how the oral tradition is conveyed from one circle to the next and integrity plays a huge role in all of this, everything is in those documents that are given has MUCH EMPHASIS on the fact that there are NO GUARANTEES, it is NOT a “return” (but rather the possibility of a future gift).

I feel that though your perspective is well-written, it lacks the voice of any kind of in-depth experience of the matter and its subjectivity really stands out. I am very sorry that you have encountered such discrepancies of character, but that is NOT the experience of ANY of the other women I’ve talked to who are involved. Perhaps, as CK has suggested, if you had gone through the process entirely and been better-informed of what you were getting yourself in to, you would have a different perspective… perhaps you would even have $40,000… Perhaps you would have found a way to use that money to better conditions for women in a different way…

I agree that circle culture is not perfect and could use some reform, and CK may even be correct in the assessment that business and personal life should not be mixed… It is true that two wrongs don’t make a right, but something done with a conscious intention and clarity of perspective and a thorough education beforehand IS making something that could be wrong in fact very right… Your opinion is heard, but much of what you have written in just that. Opinion. And though some of the opinion of commenters above were written in poor taste, much of what is being conveyed about the current system and circle as an alternative is also valid. There is something to be said about the power of belief and intention, and somehow i feel you would not disagree…

If circle is pretending, what are people doing when they create prayer rituals? That has less viable proof of working than this does… And I am in no way agreeing with Anon with that statement, for the record. If anyone here should be censored it should be that person.

If you fear retribution and such, consider that you are THREATENING many women and their families by posting this to facebook and should expect reactions in kind. Take responsibility for your actions and have realistic expectations of the consequences… Personal responsibility is something circle teaches women who stick with it. Sounds like you could use a dose of that yourself from your blog post here. Many people are learning about taking personal responsibility as a result of the blowback from fire circle moves that happened. The consequences of all of the ways the guidelines were broken are now illuminating their necessity, and change is constantly happening within the movement.

And while i have a chance to speak my piece – before you hypocritically censor my and the comments of others who are exercising their RIGHT TO PRIVACY – The blatant publicity stunts that MEN like AJ and others are getting from extorting this sensitive issue DISGUSTS me, and so does your apaprent solidarity with them. You sound like you’re getting your opinions from other places rather than your own (good) heart. You didn’t coin “cultural sickness” and everyone who has been on facebook in recent months knows about the men who have been ranting about just that euphemism… Men should be left out of this discussion entirely. Women can do math too, and feel that there are factors not being taken in to account with that math. How many women regularly re-join circles because they love it and what it has done for their lives and the lives? How about the many women out there who are choosing to pay large portions of their gifts forward to benefit other women, and encouraging them to do the same? Did you know about them?? Or how about the service projects that are being done with the money generated? What do you REALLY know?

And one more thing:
If you’re paying someone to be your life coach (in lieu of becoming your own life coach through the process that circle plays a role for, as a container/framework – depending on how you treat it AND WHAT YOU PUT IN TO IT) perhaps you should have considered listening to his advice about addressing people individually and tried a different approach. HOW did you approach these women who didn’t show up the way you wanted them to? Were you blaming or aggressive? I don’t feel from the tone of your writing that you are aggressive person by nature, but the way you are approaching this IS aggressive and appears from my perspective to be a power grab by someone who is feeling disempowered by their own decisions and lack of personal empowerment around them.

Bottom line: Your insistence on this being a black-and-white/right-and-wrong issue, by attempting to out the people involved, is conniving and out of line. Speak your peace but do not disturb others’ peace or you are simply being a hypocrite.

Bottom line is that women are not going to get their gift returned to them upon choosing to leave circle if people stop gifting into circle or if circles start breaking down. Consider the math. Circle culture in California and other places on the map with lots of interested in joining women, is now considered highly saturated by many I have spoken to. Maybe there are still a few women left who are considering joining, here and there, but how long can it really last. You can attack my blog and my character all you like. It doesn’t affect me or change my mind or change the value of my offering, although it may not be something you consider of value personally. You can’t argue with math either, or that many women who originally join circle don’t completely understand that it’s a pyramid scheme. I’m getting dozens of letters a week from people thanking me, and many more are posting excerpts from this blog as well as Scott’s comments educating people about the shadow side of this type of structure. Anyway.

Lindsey you didn’t even ADDRESS the question i asked you. WHY ARE YOU INSISTING THAT PEOPLE USE THEIR REAL NAMES? And why can’t you engage in an adult debate about this? Censoring people’s comments based on that one criteria is asinine – your goal is obviously based on a vendetta and not on fairness. I wasn’t attacking you or your blog post, just posting a challenging viewpoint to yours, and you’re completely ignoring the points i made and what I asked you and instead choosing to just be repetitive. Your lack of personal responsibility is evident. How can you say you’re trying to let people make a fair and educated assessment for themselves when you’re just censoring out what you don’t agree with? What kind of diplomacy is THAT!?

Keep your aggressive energy to a minimum and don’t attack me or anyone else on the comment thread and your comments can remain. I’m going to refrain from debating and return 100% of my attention towards nurturing things that matter to me. I have no interest in fighting. I can appreciate that you do not like some if not all of my writing on this subject. That’s cool. I’ve expressed myself clearly in my writing and now I am complete. I don’t owe you or anyone a long drawn out Q & A or debate of any kind. I thinking maybe if you go back and read it again as well as some of the other intelligent comments on this thread that you can get most if not all of your questions answered. Take care and many blessings, Lindsey

It’s hilarious to me that you try to make this a female/male thing. If you’d done any research at all you’d know that these gifting circles are 1) Illegal 2) gender neutral. It’s just a scam, and utterly nothing to do with whether you’re a man or a woman…the only thing that ever changes in the long history of these things is the language used to pull people in, which you have apparently swallowed whole. 3) Immoral, since if you do even a cursory examination of the math, you’d see that only the very top % of these pyramids end up getting paid out, while the bottom will not. It is an inevitability.

But noooo…keep blaming those evil men for messing it up with their patriarchal math.

“Lindsey”, it is the “math” that supposedly shields you, but let me repeat again, your math is WRONG and IT IS NOT A PYRAMID. It is more of a toroid than anything…But it would not “sound good” if someone invited you to the Women’s Toroid…would it?

Sorry ya’ll, “my” math is coming…I’ve been crazy busy…but I will come thru, I promise! 😉

this “Huitzilin Tamalatzin” character is trippppppin, so much so that, as a woman, i found it difficult to not become infuriated by their words. while this world is multi-faceted, as scott said, there is only one system of math and until you can provide an accurate depiction of this “mans math” and “womens math” i feel compelled to disregard pretty much everything you said. i understand that each “circle” is comprised of different people, thus, they are all different. however, from my own personal experience…women have reached out to me…in a way they never have before. feeling excited about having these women in my life who wanted to really connect, we started spending time together. after about the 3rd time, they would sit me down and ask me to join “circle” (even a few men have invited me to join, telling me they would pay my way in and link me with a woman who could help me join). although these women were very sweet to me, the idea never sat well with me and i, time and time again, declined their offer. since then, i have not heard one single word from any of these women (or the men who offered to pay my way in).
going back to the point about each circle being different….
if you, as a willing participant, can see that there are women (and men) out there that are abusing your system and using their 800% return as their sole income and NOT putting it to use for the greater good, of everyone, not just their circle, how can you still support it? i am under the impression this is about empowerment, leadership, and sisterhood. what good is sisterhood if it never extends past your bloodline/circle? how does this benefit anyone else who is not part of your circle? i feel that this could be much better received, if when the person who completes “dessert” they are required to donate half the money to a charity or create a business/investment plan on how they are going to use this “gift” to create good in this world.
and i ask all women involved, if this system worked in a way that you only “gift” $5,000 and your return “gift” is this sisterhood, would you still join? are you truly not expecting a return “gift”. i feel so strongly that the first principle of giving and receiving is that you do so expecting nothing in return. if you are expecting this $40,000 and that is your motivation for joining (be real with yourself) you are in it for the wrong reasons.
“oh i just put in this $5,000 and i only have to talk on the phone with these women once a week and get some other people to join? cool, i can hang out with my child and be a very present mother”, or “i can put myself or my children through school”, “i can start the business i always dreamed of having” these are all reasons i have heard about why to join. however, it is simply unsustainable. what happened to hard work and dedication to the thing you love most?

YES!!! I am tripppppin! And soon enough you will be too 😀 Hold your horses. You won’t be disappointed. Keep writing, you are giving me plenty of points to respond to 😀 (Dang, it’s gonna be a long summer of writing and drawing things!)

It’s in it’s essence a recruiting scheme. They wrap it up in a nice package. I’m sure there is some good that comes out of these circles, and no doubt some people’s lives are impacted in a positive way from this, however, that doesn’t change the fact that it’s an inherently unsustainable economic model. period. If you think this system is going to save the world your are simply deluding yourself. If you want to truly understand the concept of a gift economy and how it can change the world, please watch the video on this site. It’s excellent: http://sacred-economics.com/

In reading the comments from the supporters of these circles it’s kinda scary to see the level of cultural brainwashing going on here. Perhaps these circles have been happening for 20-30 years but I call bullshit on that. I had never heard of these circles before, and yet in the last few months I’ve met 4 women who are part of it. It seems to be hitting mass growth right now, which also means the collapse is soon to follow. Circles will stall because there will be a lack of willing contributors. At some point this is bound to happen. Simple math. This also explains why so many circles are needing to be propped up by women who have already received their gift.

If you really want to practice giving and receiving come over to my house. Bring $1000 cash. We’ll pool all of the money in the center. There’s 11 of us, so cool a $11,000 pile of cash. (11 is sacred to me). I’ll volunteer to be the first receiver and take the 11k cash, and hold it all in my hands and feel this amazing empowerment that you all provided for me. Thanks for being so gracious with your gifts!

Ok now my time is up, so I will give this money to the next person to my left. I have now experienced the uber gift, because I had all that cash in my grasp yet I chose to give it away. We’ll repeat this process until everyone has had a chance to be the giver and receiver. At the end of the night we all take our $1000 back and go home. hah!

The main thing I wanted to respond to was Aimee’s comment about most money being created from “investments”. That is not true at all. 90% of all money in circulation today was created out of thin air by the banks. Every time someone takes out a loan to buy a house or car, or to go to college… That money is literally created on the spot out of thin air. Every time money is created in this way, more debt is also created because the money has to be paid back with interest. At any given time there is more debt than money in circulation which means that it’s actually impossible for everyone to full pay back their debts. This is why almost everyone is in swimming in debt, and why we are constantly encourage to BUY more cars etc… because new “money” (debt) needs to be created to keep the system going, and for everyone to continue paying back their debt. This also explains the financial crisis of 2008 and all of the bank failures. Money wasn’t being generated fast enough to keep the system afloat, and almost resulted in a total global economic collapse – which by the way is still coming because the root cause of the matter hasn’t been addressed. The FEDS response was to create (again out of thin air) 16 Trillion dollars to pass to all the banks so we can all keep playing these games for a few more years…

How did I come to understand this info? Lots of sources, but watch Money as Debt for starters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8
Once you really understand this, a lot of pieces will begin to fall into place.

Also people, WE (with our abundance mindsets) are destroying the planet. A seldom understood fact is that we have probably already signed our own death warrant as a species, having already triggered 10+ irreversible feedback loops in regards to global climate change. This is not fear-mongering, this is scientific fact. The goose is already cooked. It F#$%ing breaks my heart to say this, and I have been praying for there to be a solution to this madness, but there doesn’t seem to be one. Trust me, I’ve been looking. This sustainability revolution that’s happening now needed to happen about 20+ years ago, and we needed to be powering down the global economy, not ramping it up. We need to learn as a species to be humble and grateful, and to live in harmony with nature and other people.

I consider myself a feminist and an earth lover. I’m all for women’s empowerment. Take the money scheme out of these circles and do they still hold the same power? Do they still serve the same function? Would women still be calling in to the weekly calls if there was no hope for a payout someday down the line?

If you’re looking for a sacred circle of women dedicated to your empowerment without the money scheme, check out Women Within: http://www.womanwithin.org/

Great job, Lindsey. Courage! Hey, I never got involved but have now given what feels like thousands of refusals. I guess I’m truly “chosen,” huh? 😉

Hey I’m wondering. Is there any good info about true abundance creation/paradigm in the materials from circle? How about repurposing any gems of wisdom into an actual product. Maybe Scott could help? I for one could use some coaching around this issue. I can see a sweet info product with teleseminars, much like the weekly circle calls. Make it shiny and appealing to our tribe, but actually have real nuts an bolts and psycho/emotional exercises/journaling/ witnessing etc to heal abundance issues. It could be sold for a reasonable amount, way cheaper than $5000, and given for free to the poor. Mixing the socio economic “classes” in order for all to learn and heal. Not cult-like. Not a new Landmark forum or something. Just a sweet little product/experience to genuinely help people. I would love to help promote such a product. I think we could start to heal this sickness in our culture by taking the info, sharing it openly and legitimately. Something you could tell mom about, share with your friends of all genders, and shine the light of truth on. We found turn the pyramid on its head. Knock a real bolt of lightening into the top of the tower. What do you think?

Hey, Thanks so much Jaya, for reading and taking the time to comment so thoughtfully. I’d be curious to see what Scott and others say. Your idea reminds me of some of what he spoke with me about traditional MLM marketing. Not sure if your idea is different or if it still requires recruiting…

I’m in the process of unfolding my own healing and deepening awareness as to the real workings of the conditioning of this type of structure and how it’s encoded into humanity. I’m right now clearing my own heart and mind from so much intense focus at the darkness and negativity, from shooting arrows into the illusion of the thing, in the hopes of being a part of bridging the gap between the suffering this is causing, and the need to encourage attention towards solutions and healing for those who are awakening out of it, wishing to make it right.
I’m considering some ideas that could help in re-unifying women and families, friendships and communities that are feeling separate, let down or dis empowered in any regard from the circle culture. I have some meetings and inner work still to do, before presenting but I will get back to creating a new blog post invitation for healing sometime next week. Thank you. Hope you are thriving in all ways.

Yeah….it’s called writing a book that gets on Oprah, call it “The Secret” , and watch the money roll in despite being devoid of merit or substance.

For the love of all gods above and below…you want to help the world? Go out and volunteer in your communities and help at risk youth. Teach a class that provides someone with a real skill. Volunteer at a prison. Get involved in local politics so that the wing nuts stop defunding vital programs. Stop with all the mumbo jumbo and get into reality, rather than thinking about ways to teleseminar healing inverted pyramid groups and make some money off the same language that the creators of the gifting circles exploited. There are so many tangible yet unglamorous ways to make a difference. Give those a try.

The Gifting Circles have been around in my world since about 1999. They peaked around 2001, went underground, and now are re-emerging with great intensity. I have been approached three times in the last month to join. I just talked to an Iranian-British friend who lives in London, so thrilled to think that she was just calling out of the blue, only to find out that she too wanted to invite me.

I have been invited to join a circle several times in the past decade but have never done so. I know many (more than two dozen) women who have been in circle, some of whom are very close friends. Only two of them have ever admitted to reaching the final level and having received anything (they were in at the very start of the movement); a few more have spoken of their disappointment; the remainder are completely silent, in probable embarrassment. The reason I know that their circles fell apart is that they stopped talking about them after incessantly doing so; surely they would have been bursting with excitement to share their arrival at dessert if that had happened.

Why have I never joined? My intuition simply told me clearly, directly and with immediacy: “You don’t really need this.” But I have had to re-consider my feelings further in light of recent new invitations: I wanted to explore my resistance, and to be able to put into words WHY I have no interest in being part of circle, because some very dear, if persistent, friends are urging me to explain myself.

Here’s what I have to say:
1) I may need money, or more specifically may need support & resources to actualize my visions, but I do not need this particular format to find them. There are many, many other pathways, but to seek them takes even more courage and imagination.

2) I am under no illusions: I know that being in circle means putting out a lot of time and effort to gain other women’s resources. It’s work. It’s (to me) the unpleasant and questionable work of trying to persuade someone else to take a large risk for nebulous “personal growth reasons.” Judging from the effort my friends have put into persuading me, and the relentless use of jargon and lofty terms about empowerment, and the way they tried to label my disinterest as some sort of lack of spiritual courage, t’s about the last thing I want to do with my time and energy. Maybe I’m just lazy. It’s work. I already have work.

3) If we’re going to divide phenomena into masculine and feminine and assign them “old, rigid, bad” and “new, visionary, limitless” qualities, this is about as masculine as it gets. No one gets to join circle if they have only $4000 or $39. No one gets to receive the dessert gift is they haven’t had the time or the right connections to recruit their quota of new members. It’s inflexible and hierarchical = “masculine”.

4) Gifting, receiving, women’s empowerment, and human empowerment, can and does occur all the time, any time and place. It happens inside of daily life, in conversations, in community, in big, small and invisible ways. It is not the exclusive province of Women’s Gifting Circles. I just offered to put $30 towards some kids’ camp tuition and got a bunch of friends to do the same; now this kids can go to camp. Not to toot my own horn, just to emphasize that just because you don’t join a circle by putting in $5000 it doesn’t mean you don’t believe in the gift economy, don’t pay forward, don’t want empowerment.

5) The participation of affluent, educated and professional women in gifting circles does absolutely nothing to validate their mathematical logic, their inherent goodness or the wisdom of joining. These women are precisely those who can afford to gamble $5000 and while feeling good about themselves.

6) It is integral to the structure of the circles that the mutually contradictory messages of “It’s a gift: don’t expect anything” and “When you reach dessert, you’ll have $40,000 and your dreams can come true” are constantly played across the psyches of the women who have just paid in. That’s crazy-making if you ask me.

7) The one small voice in me that might have urged me to join was the part that spoke for my conditioned female self. The part that doesn’t want to say no, that wants to please, that wants to be a good girl, that wants to get the approval of the others, that doesn’t want to make things difficult, that wants to be liked. As far as I can see, exploiting this aspect of women is a key tool in recruitment. Talk about women’s empowerment!

8) I don’t even care about their illegality (I’ve done plenty of illegal things) nor even about the mathematics. These are not the issue for me.

I have enjoyed reading all the posts here (anonymous and not, most viewpoints are interesting and worth reading… When presented respectfully and without arrogance).

I pray that whoever can effect a positive change be shown a win-win model to share as an alternative– where we support one another, connect and co-create a better world, with our hearts AND minds, the beneficial forces of male and female working together, under the intuitive, visionary guidance and facilitation of the women.

It will be a model in which no one feels the need to take advantage of another, and is able to ease-fully speak the truth about what’s taking place, so that everyone involved is very clear about what they are agreeing to and why. I want to see people (most especially the ones who could never dream of having $5k to spare) thriving and living healthfully,abundantly, in harmony with the earth, their families. I am holding this vision and I do believe that it will come, with the undeniable strength of Love- of many holding this collective vision together.

Maybe some people are headed for a world of apocalypse. In my reality, the earth reflects my inner condition (and vice versa) and I am going to go through this Birth with our mama as she brings a new (way of) being to the light. Me, I am headed for a beautiful new way of living with the earth and earth community. (Call these fancy words if you want, but they are grounded in a truth I feel in my whole body and being, as true and real as the earth I feel under my feet when I walk.)

To create the new world, that’s in alignment with the rhythms of nature and spirit, will take the conscious application of all our facilities, to their max- mental, spiritual, emotional, physical- it is work, a real labor of love, to consciously CREATE what we want to see, everyday. And it does take the masculine and feminine strengths both, equal, and held/guided by the women.

So many blessings to all of us on our lives’ journeys. May we find the way that everyone can “win”; win by giving, win by receiving, win by trusting and connecting. Amen! And aloha… 🙂

Really? Why does it have to be guided and held by the women? I can only imagine the hackles that would be raised if you had said everything you wrote, but said “guided and held by the men.” As this recent scam shows, having women in charge is no more a guarantee of wisdom then when men are. What is needed are people who are wise, informed, educated, who realize that being “open minded” doesn’t mean accepting any fruitcake idea that comes down the pike, and not so blinded by their beliefs that they lose objectivity.

I just feel sorry for people who spend their money and energy in pyramid schemes like this when they can use the same time and skills in a legitimate network marketing company with a product people actually want and use…

Y’all should hit me up if you wanna do essentially the same thing but not ruin your karma and end up with nothing when the FTC steps in…

Ok Huitzilin Tamalatzin. Let’s see if I can use a more “womanly” mathematical metaphor to explain what happens here.

Because these circular groups split in half after someones desert it’s more like cell mytosis- think of the rapid growth of a baby in utero- a cell divides, grows, and divides again. one cell becomes 2048 cells after only 11 divides. It’s a beautiful thing to think about how rapidly life is created and grows into something complete and sentient.

It tempts one to think the constant splitting and reforming of women’s wisdom groups is much like mitosis, creating something greater than its individual circles. Like how embryo’s become babies…

But something needed for mitosis and the growth and development of lifeforms is fuel. Water, nutrients, amino acids, fats, and calories. Basically it must consume! Even if 1/8th of each cell joined a new cell.

Wisdom circles need fuel as well! Can it run and grow on intangibles like good intentions, manifesting, and overall happy thoughts? You’ll probably say sure but really, that’s like saying fresh air is all babies need to grow.

Cash is the fuel. Though this reality is cloaked in words that make entrants feel powerful, warm and fuzzy, special, hopeful, helpful, and accepted- cash brought you there and kept you there and is the only thing allowing more and more splits.

But cash is finite and more so are the people with it. Soon enough every woman willing and able to participate in a region-will be in a group or will have been in one. 11 group splits and you’ll have. 2048 groups each with 14 members making a total of 28672 community participants- but now every group faces a terrible reality- NO MORE PROSPECTS! NO MORE FUEL!. This is when the overall organism of “wisdom” groups dies. 2048 cash out and 26624 have nothing.

Even if every winner recycled into a new group it would only slow it down by a tiny fraction. Only 2048 women winners could recycle into it leaving still 24576 of the last joiners with a big fat broken hearted debt financed from high interest credit cards- precious savings-relatives who they can’t look in the eye.Plus a-lot of lost trust from them and for them.

Huitzilin Tamalatzin- you want abstract fuzzy math to be true because YOU invested. You are afraid. But please don’t call it woman’s math! I am a woman and exponential growth is as clear a truth to me as any man I know, but I suppose I’ll empathize with the group tragedy that’s around the corner like a woman.

Hello! And here is the long contribution some of you have been so impatient with me about. It is still in rough draft status. It is also re-usable, so feel free take and make your presentation based on it if you see improvements possible…including things you think are false and impossible.

You’ll need flash and popcorn…oh, and anti-dizziness pills if you’ve never flown around with a hummingbird :D. Make your comments either here or there…wherever it is most useful to have the discussion.

TIPS: Put on full screen and use left and right arrows to fly “forward” around the Pleiades 😉 If you select Allow keyboard controls, you can at any moment drag around and zoom in and out using the scroll wheel.

That…was….gibberish. Total, utter, gibberish. It answered nothing, except to further cement the fact that

1) You don’t understand basic math.

2) You cloak an obvious scam and pyramid scheme (or circular scheme, choose your geometry) in a post colonial glorification of Krishna/Vishnu/Goddess mythology/feel-good cafeteria style “spirituality”, condescending, bottled-up-and-labeled kind of narrative. It’s such gibberish that if it weren’t so sad I would laugh. I mean…seriously…do people really fall for this? Really? Please tell me you’re aware of the scam, at least, and this that this works. I’d almost, *almost* have more respect for the evil genius of it all if you could tell me you knew it was a scam.

Your math means nothing. Literally. Even if some of the women give a portion of the proceeds back to other people….at most it delays the inevitable.

The math:

Let’s imagine this is the very first giving cycle. Brand new, at the dawn of time. You have 1 person who is going to receive from 8 people to start the thing rolling.

8 people give 5k to the person at the top: that person gets 40k. Let’s say they “tithe” around 13%, so…..they have around 35k left. They give their 5k evenly to the 8 below? Or to one specific person who then uses it to join the group, I assume?

Does the person who received the 40k also join back in to another circle/pyramid? Do they join more than one? Because now, since each person has to bring in 2 people to keep this going, the person at the top would actually have to give away 10k to make it happen, wouldn’t they? Do they do that?

In the end, in order for these things to progress, you still need each person at the bottom to bring in 2 more people to keep things flowing. So unless the person at the top gives it *all* back to 8 new people, it won’t work. New people have to come in with new money. And eventually you *run out of people*. How do you not see this?

Your mathematical model stopped after one step. Show me with real numbers, with a tally of how many people are involved, from the formation of a brand new circle, and where the money goes. 5, 6, 7 cycles of it, with who gets paid what, and who is funding it, and how it keeps going. Show me in a simple chart (because in simple exchanges of fixed amounts, presentations like yours only serve to try and confuse the easily confused. It’s all smoke and mirrors.)

Thank you for taking the time to put together this delightful presentation. It was a joy to experience flying through the cosmos while absorbing some of your ideas. Here’s my response…

First off, I want to say that I like you and your style. I like that you’re open to the debate and that you seem to be enjoying the cognitive dissonance. I can sense that you have a good heart, and that it is with good intentions that you entered into this program as a way to embrace/enhance the feminine energies within you whilst empowering yourself and your tribe for the betterment of all beings everywhere. I get it that part of it, and understand the reasons why this is attractive to so many women.

Also, the concept of a gift economy is very powerful, and admittedly, it’s one that I’m only beginning to wrap my own consciousness around. All of us who have grown up in a western capitalistic society have been conditioned so deeply in regards to how we relate to money and the material world. I’ve recently been turned to the ideas of Charles Eisenstein with his book and also the excellent intro video on his website (I’ll share the link at the end of my post). My point is that I acknowledge that these concepts are valuable and should be explored. We *do* need a mass conscious awakening if we are going to be able to shift our society into something that can be sustainable in the long-term. Therefore I agree with and support the motive behind your actions, *however*, I disagree emphatically with your methods, and I’d even take it a step further to say that ultimately it will end up doing way more damage to your cause than good.

Your presentation is flawed because you are not accurately describing the way this thing works. You’re not showing the full circle. Also, when it splits you are only showing one of the new circles when there are two. Each circle including the original and all of the other ones to the left should be splitting into two. .. but first, let’s back up a step…

*** Disclaimer (I acknowledge I am ignorant as to how this truly got started, but I’m going off the model that is presented and duplicated for every circle, if you have better info as to the origins, please share)*** In the beginning there were 7. This thing had to start somewhere, so in the beginning there were 7 “chosen ones” who didn’t even have to give a gift, yet recruited 8 others who gave to the first dessert to complete the first cycle. I’m going to refer to these first 8 recruits as “gamblers” because they are essentially gambling that the system won’t collapse or get busted before it’s their turn to receive their dessert. All future recruits are in this category until they receive their dessert. The key point to pay attention to here, and please don’t miss it, is that at any point in time this first dessert would have made more money than anyone else in the system, followed by the next 2 desserts, and so on. Those who got involved early will ultimately reap the most reward.

So the first circle is complete. It takes 15 total people to complete a circle, and then it splits into two new circles. The dessert is free to go enjoy her new found abundance, but with 40K of free money it’s a no brainer to put 5k back into the system that is sure to cycle several more times. So from here on out I’m going to go with the assumption that EVERY SINGLE dessert re-joins a new circle. The 14 remaining ladies split in half 7 / 7, with two new desserts set to receive (based on who joined the program earliest) and each circle’s goal is to recruit 8 more women. Fast forward and assume this occurs without a hitch, and we now have 2 complete circles.

Let’s press the pause button right here and examine the numbers because this describes in essence the nature of the entire program. Up until this point there are 30 women involved, 15 in each circle. 3 of the 30 have received their dessert, the two new desserts plus the original ‘chosen one’. At this time the ratio of women who have received compared to women who have only given is 3/10 = 10%. This number assumes that every single dessert recipient re-invests into a new circle, every time – otherwise the ratio is lower. The highest this ratio can ever be is 12.5%, but most likely is lower than that. It will never get any higher because as new circles are formed the new dessert has not yet received, and so while new recruits trickle in the ratio dips lower. If every circle on the planet were to magically fill up at the exact same time the ratio would jump back to the max 12.5%, but never higher.
I hope this is clear enough for everyone reading along, because what this describes is a system of the many giving to the few, in hopes of someday receiving themselves. Even though it’s labeled as a gift, I doubt many people would join if there wasn’t some expectation of a ROI down the road. How many women join and “give freely” without any knowledge of the dessert. Very few or none would be my guess.

So by now there are a couple of pink elephants in the room. One is that you’re trying to promote a consciousness shift through gifting with a program that is not gifting. If you want to be in the vibration of gifting, try it. Put $100 in your pocket (or if that’s too scary start with $20), walk down the street, and the first person who makes eye contact with you give them the money. Look them straight in the eyes and say “Hi, I don’t know you, but this is a gift. All I ask is that you use it to express your best self.” Flash a smile and keep walking.

The 2nd pink elephant is that you are trying to promote the empowerment of women with a program where the many give to the few. At any point in time if you hit the pause button, 12.5% are abundant goddesses flying high (in the best case scenario – reality is somewhere between 7.5-12.5%), and 87.5% are givers who are recruiting and hoping. If percentages aren’t your thing imagine a room full of 1000 women, all of which are in a circle. 125 have received, and 875 have not.

The 3rd pink elephant is the inherent unsustainability of the whole program, which means that some day it will collapse. There is no way around this fact. Why? For the program to continue it has to keep growing indefinitely. New unsuspecting recruits have to be brought in for the desserts to continue receiving. This is a simple math problem of 2×2. Each time the circles split the amount of women involved has to double. The first circle was 15. When the 2nd and 3rd circles filled up there were 30 = 15×2. The next cycle = 60 women involved. Get out your calculator and keep multiplying x2. It doesn’t take long before the numbers become huge and the pool of potential recruits begins to shrink. The later you join, the greater the chance it will collapse before you receive your dessert, which for those keeping score, means you lose. Also remember, this isn’t for everyone especially considering that you… “do not invite people involved in the legal profession, paralegals, court reporters, parking ticket people, accountants, actors, politicians, or any government position. We also don’t invite anyone who is married to anyone in those jobs mentioned.” For some strange reason the opportunity for empowerment is not equally available to all women. Hmm…

Let’s put this elephant in a dress and see how she looks, shall we? If you had to guess how many women TOTAL were involved in this today what would be your guess? I have no idea, but let’s say 500,000 for this example. Let’s say you’re a new potential recruit reading this and you decide to join today. For you to receive your dessert there would have to be 4 completed cycles. So do the math, 500,000 x2x2x2x2 = 8 million. 7.5 million MORE people would have been recruited in the time you went from a recruit to a receiver. Let’s say you recruited a new person right before you received your dessert. How many more women would be involved by the time THEY got their dessert? 8 mil x2x2x2x2 = 128 million. Let’s say they recruited someone in the same way, right before they received. … by the time THEY got their dessert? 128 million x2x2x2x2 = over 2 billion women. Of those 2 billion %87.5 or 1.8 billion have not yet received and are out there on the streets trying to recruit.

So eventually what happens over time is that the pool of fresh recruits becomes more and more scarce, as the demand for new recruits continues to increase. Circles start to bog down – some might even disband out of frustration. Basically there is no way to avoid an eventual total collapse of the scheme. It was flawed from the very start, and what you end up with is a lot of hurt & bitter people. The longer these circles continue the more women will be negatively impacted when it collapses. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but at most 12.5% of the woman would have received, some multiple times (depending how early you got in), and at least 87.5% involved lose everything they put in. They trusted, they gave freely, and they suffered a loss as a result. This is not fear talking, this is fact. It’s a gamble people, straight up. Dress it up in whatever pseudo-spiritual mumbo jumbo you want, it is what it is, and I don’t believe you can refute these three major points (elephants) I’ve laid out.

*sigh*

So to conclude, I feel sad that so many amazing, powerful, and talented women are being brought into this, with most of them not fully understanding the long-term ramifications of the program. It seems to be a result of intentional deceit combined with intellectual and spiritual laziness. I understand that there is a lot of good coming out of this program, in the sense that massive amounts of women are organizing, supporting each other, and forming strong bonds. I pray for healing, and I pray that we can all shift our energies into truly uplifting and sustainable forms of human empowerment going forward.

….that level of self delusion is not about to be altered by facts. That level of brainwashing (evidenced by the enormous bog of pseudo spirituality being spewed out. If bollocks were bullets, we’d be in a Tarantino movie.) is nearly impenetrable. It also has nothing to do with truly empowering women. It’s about maintaining belief structures, it’s about power, it’s about greed. The heart is not in the right place. It’s about dollar signs and the lazy idea that you can get something for nothing (or, at least an 800% return for no work). It isn’t about true gifting, as you pointed out. It isn’t about true sisterhood, since no true friend would ask someone they cared about into a scam like this.

They believe because they want to believe, and because they are greedy. I know people in it….they aren’t sociopaths, but they are every one of them blinded by the idea of making easy money. The pattern is the same whether the circle/pyramid/rhomboid has fake earth mother narrative, or any of the other flavors and hooks. Huitzilin is no kind hearted yet misguided soul sister/brother. He/she is greedy. Plain and simple.

Besides all of the mathematics involved…there are also the legalities involved. Women in our communities are being arrested over this. They not only lose money but their freedom. When you choose not to join a circle once asked, you then get socially excommunicated. You come to realize that people who hire you and keep work coming in, are involved in the circles. So its viral effect is much broader then alot of people realize.

It’s certainly a hot issue these days. I’m not in a circle, but have been interested to sit back and watch as they gain momentum in my community and the punches are being dealt out back and forth, for and against… I must say that in the past year I have seen it directly benefit numerous friends (over a dozen women). The math section is interesting to my nerdy brain who took calculus for “fun” in school as my elective class –and it makes a strong point. The math is however, hypothetical, and only simple multiplication… and in practice there is a variable which has not been included to make this a more true algebraic proof: women who become the dessert leave the pyramid with their “gifts” and are no longer at the top of the pyramid (which means that they can then become a member of another circle or re-enter the circle they left) –that alone makes it a bizarre pyramid, very unlike any pyramid structures I’ve seen where all the funds continue to funnel to the top and “first” group of people involved; that variable is left out entirely, and for me, seems worthy of noting. There is a top, but it’s brief, and then it’s back to figuring out how to live one’s life well. Men can sponsor women as well, which means that there is yet another variable that would need to be added to the equation. The system is however contingent on circles having enough members to continue joining them, and so there is a point in time when women might not get to be the dessert and get a gift. That’s clear as day to me though and why I haven’t joined… As alternative economics go, it’s not for everyone –and so I’m not in, but support the women who want to join, and know that all you can count on is helping out another woman –which is a far better cry than investing in corporate hegemony.

Those of us who have done the math on this *have* factored in the possibility of women rejoining into new circles. See my post above for the full breakdown. In my model I assume that *every* woman who received a dessert joins another circle, and yet still if you pause time and look at the numbers at maximum 12.5% of women involved have received whereas at least 87.5% have not. That is the best case scenario.

For anyone who wants to figure this out for themselves, here’s a simple way to do it. Take a piece of paper and make three columns with the following headers: “total # of circles” “# of women total” and “# of women who have received dessert”. Start with the first circle. 1 circle, 15 women, 1 dessert. After that circle splits, start the next row. 2 circles, 30 women, 3 desserts (2 new + 1). Next is 4 circles, 60 women, 7 desserts (4 new +3). Next is 8 circles, 120 women, 15 desserts ( 8 new +7). At any point in time you can divide the # of desserts by total # of women to get your ratio. Also you’ll notices that the # of total women is doubling each time which indicates exponential growth which is not sustainable in the long-term. If you keep going with this chart, on the the next row you have to create another column to factor in women who have received dessert twice so as not to count them twice for your ratio. 16 circles, 240 women, 30 desserts ( 15 old + 16 new circles – 1 received twice). At this point the ratio is a steady 12.5%. 32 circles, 480 women, 60 desserts ( 30 old + 32 new – 2 more who have recieved twice). I realize now that at this point you can just keep doubling the number of desserts each cycle because the number of double receivers will offset things. Hope that makes sense, but if you start at the beginning and draw it out yourself it should become clear.

You are correct that while there is a finite number of eligible women who can participate in the program, and by design it’s meant to grow exponentially. At some point it will reach a breaking point, it has to, and the whole thing will come crashing down, or at least come to a complete halt. At that point there will be more losers than winners. The longer this is allowed to continue the more losers there will be, which is why I’m making an effort to educate people about this.

This program relies on infinite exponential growth to maintain. Each time the circles cycle and someone gets paid the big $$$ The total amount of people involved has to double for that to happen. There is a finite number of people living on planet earth. The number that is eligible to participate in this game is way less given that only females can participate, they exclude people of certain professions, and women if they’re married to men of certain professions. The point is that there is a limited amount of eligible players of the game. Whatever that number is, it’s a finite number.

Here’s a simple example. Lets say the circles started in a small town in Kansas. There are 1000 eligible women who live in this town and they all choose to participate when it’s their time to be “chosen” as a recruit. After 7 cycles of circles there will be 960 women involved. 120 of these women have received their gift, and 7 lucky ones have received twice! 840 women have yet to receive, and the circles now need to start recruiting outside of their geographical area to keep the program running. This also further illustrates my point that those who joined early on benefit more than those who join later, at the cost of those who will give and receive nothing.

You need to go back and do some calculations, or read Scott’s excellent analysis a few posts above. People rejoining slows things only slightly. These things are a scam except for the early entrants, are well documented, and many many people end up losing their money. It is illegal, and ethically bankrupt, since anyone recruiting is bringing people in under the guise of friendship but in fact guaranteeing the new people have a far greater chance of losing their money than they did. Call me crazy, but I wouldn’t do that to my friends. The math doesn’t lie. It’s Bernie Madoff disguised as earth mother sisterhood bullshit.

I mostly don’t think police and jail are good solutions for most things when laws or ethics are violated except for the worst of criminals. About the only one I would think deserves jail time is the queen bee(s) who started this. However I read an article on victims filing and winning law suits on their upline and/or sponsers for fraud from this women’s circle, google it and you will see. In most states a civil suit dealing with fraud allows for triple damages known as “treble” damages. It also allows for the victim to have all their lawyer bills paid.
So if you get involved, and lose the money you invest you can go after triple damages (plus your legal cost) from those that profited from your loss. If you are one of the “lucky ones” (the 12.5%) that profited, you should be on notice that you could be on the hook for triple damages.

Despite what you say, your overly long article seems to be trying very hard to damn and slander circle culture. I’m sorry you didn’t get the “help” you were seeking. It sounds like many women showed up in the best way they knew how. What more can you ask of someone? I have many beloved friends in circle and I am watching them grow in leaps and bounds as a result of their participation. Let people make their own decisions. If we want to talk about cultural sickness, let’s bring in ganja culture as a career choice… and people making money off other people’s addictions. Or what about polyamory and all the relational hardship that creates. Then there’s the myriad of babies being born out of wedlock that are going to grow up without the foundation of a real family…

alana, are you aware how many cookie jars some these people have their hands in? men who grow ganja are ushering these women into circles. i know a few women who have had their “gift” sponsored by some weed growing dude just looking to make some cash. and yes, i agree that ganja culture is rabid, however you have to realize, that money is helping support and perpetuate these circles. take it out of the picture, and i bet these circles will not grow as quickly. all the energy spent looking for another woman to put in 5k or all the time spent growing/trimming weed are far better spent honing and developing your craft. your craft is probably the most sustainable choice you can make to your future.

“Or what about polyamory and all the relational hardship that creates.”

I think relationship hardship was there way before the word polyamory ever showed up — and regardless of how many lovers people have. Mainly, it’s just that people are not very good at relating and communicating well. But when they do, the relationship configuration they are in doesn’t matter: they just make it work with integrity.

As healers & cultural leaders, I feel that the most important questions remain…

Short term: Assuming women want to leave circles, en masse, how can the situation be remedied? What is the fairest way to dismantle circles with the fewest people getting hurt? Calling on the witch hunt, finger pointing and spreading negativity so circles collapse sounds like armageddon, not healing.

Long term: (some have touched on this) What other ways are there to support women emotionally and financially that are not part of the main stream construct already? Clearly, what’s out there isn’t doing the job or women wouldn’t be joining the circles.

It’s easy to point out what’s wrong. It’s a much higher calling to find a conscious solution.

Circles need to collapse, and they will, either by people leaving them, law enforcement stepping in, or by the math itself taking care of it. It is an inevitability.

Don’t think that this is all some happy, loving, ‘best of intentions’ sort of thing. The people who start these know full well that they are going to get paid off first, and paid off well. There is *NO* fundamental difference between these circles, and Bernie Madoff’s ponzi scheme. Ergo, I see no problem with people being fined, or even going to jail, since I know for a fact that there are people involved who fully know it is both illegal and immoral.

Women enter this based on the promise of easy money, period. It may be wrapped in earth goddess pseudo spirituality, but it is the promise of getting something for nothing (almost) that draws people in.

And there are plenty of ways to support oneself in this world. Get an education. Work hard. Be creative. Don’t expect something for nothing.

Good responses everyone, but I’m yet to accept defeat. I’m crawling back into my “hummingbird” cave to examine all points closely. So far, I have an answer for all. I will go on like this until i have no more answers and hopefully you have no more questions. Round one is yet over…and then we’ll go into round two. In the meantime, I encourage women to veer away from this and continue in their circles because no matter what, the benefit of participating, if done for the purpose of offering each other support while seeking to attract the gifts of abundance, is more than one can ask for a mere 5K. As far as I’m concerned, the rest is GRAVY ON THE CAKE…and so what if only a few bloom in the end aided by “the many”. When done thru the gift culture, this doesn’t create a “few” that happen to be assholes. In this “circle” every woman is equal (at least intentionally), every woman deserves the potential of making a mere 40K, and no woman ends up getting much “richer” than any other. 40K isn’t much AT ALL…and those of you who gave the gift and have not receive, don’t forget that that today you give a woman 5K and tomorrow she buys your car for 5K…don’t forget that. If you give, you receive, there is hardly any waiting at all. If you feel as if you have not received, then you are not looking in the right place. Money is not the only way to receive. Those of you who have doubts, please, do us all a favor and LEAVE…go to your scrooge caves. Shew! Get away. You remind me of the people who have doubts about the medical benefits of Ganja and somehow came up with a stupid ass story of why it is justifiable to make it illegal—which, ironically, is a good thing :). Not that I’m trying to make a “logical correlation”, but that is how your mind has been stunted.

The most unfortunate part of this:
– That we still have to use money
– That the worst part of ANYTHING AT ALL is people and their limitations and fears. Someone’s always going to complain no matter what, hence the SUPPORT GROUP. It’s there so that those who have a tendency to be cynical and complaining of basic good can have a chance of leaving that asinine behavior behind.

The best part of this:
– That the debate will be settled once and for all for many people. My position is unshakeable. I believe in this FULLY AND ABSOLUTELY. At the end of the day, the main point of the women’s circle is: GIVE! So far, all the detractors here FEAR something so puny, and that is the giving of $5K to a woman, any woman in your community whom you might think “doesn’t deserve” it. I don’t know about you, but my gift has been given. I’m sitting around waiting for a return. I am plenty happy with having parted with that gift and I know it came back into my life immediately in other ways…and if it comes back to me in the form of currency, awesome! At least no one here stayed at the top of the pyramid like every other Network Marketing TRUE pyramid scheme where those at the top ALWAYS stay at the top. You all seem to quickly forget that our world is maintained by the sacrificing of many for the enjoyment of few…this is what “they” figured and started to work it so that it would never change from them to anyone else.

Ayayay! This is gonna take a while. I don’t have time to be defending this shit. Ladies, please invite “the right” people. Invite TRUE GIFTERS. Don’t invite women who “NEED” money. Invite women who have already created value either thru network or thru their own work. I know I know…you all have it handled and don’t really need my advice…but I really do hope these unfortunate blog explosions stop hindering the flow of gifts. I want to see more of my WELL DESERVING sisters who simply cannot access the value in FedNotes that they are worth in the work of their daily activities. In my opinion, those women are holding important places in the transformation of our world and they deserve access to currency…it is the way their work can be validated and it is the way in which they can multiply their wealth. Some of these women are about 10 times more industrious than many here. I have NO PROBLEM gifting them money when I have it and if the Circle disappears because you folk make it collapse in some way, it will not stop me from gifting to women I believe are in unfair situations. Before I gifted to the circle I had already gifted various women in my life more than than the gift required. To me, discovering the circle was pretty great. Why? Because the women harnessed the power of these gifts that people like myself give…they harnessed it and gave it an order in which no one is left un-accounted for.

Take a pilgrimage WITHOUT MONEY AT ALL. Let life provide for you at every step. Only then I think you can truly understand how this all works. Money is a curse that women have found a way to make it LESS OF A CURSE. Thank you ladies 🙂

Sorry Huitzilin…I still ain’t buying your final plea…but I will say it was your best post yet. You touched on some really powerful emotional points that I want to respond to. Since we all have established that the math fails on the circle culture. I want to address the emotional and growth aspects you are touting as a reason to do it. By the way, the best image for this circle is to imagine a pyramid with rounded corners… 🙂

When Lindsey called me wanting info on how these gifting programs work…we spoke for 3 hours on the phone. The first hour or so was about the math and culture of Ponzi schemes, and the next two hours were about really making a difference in the world. As many of you know Lindsey is a talented singer/songwriter. I asked Lindsey why she does not just make a fortune in music? Her response was “nobody makes money making music”…so I challenged her to name a singer/songwriter who was one of her heroes, someone who she feels not only is successful, but someone of high integrity…she told me Paul Simon…I then asked her to do a fun thing and we role played having lunch with Paul Simon…I had her say to him, “nobody makes money doing music”…she then got it…Paul Simon not only has made a difference in the world with his great lyrics, his great songs, but he has brought music from around the world in a very awesome cultural way. But he made a lot of money doing it. A win-win for the world…I’m also sure he does lots of wonderful charitable things with his money.
So for the people who feel they have no future, no prospects of abundance other doing a scam…please remember your own epicness, your own greatness. Creating abundance is so much easier then most people make it. Just provide value in the world. Paul Simon has touched many lives and many of us love his music (me included) and hence he has made millions of dollars doing what he loves. Keep asking yourself empowering questions like…
1. How can I create the most value in the world to the most people?
2. How can I live with passion for life?
3. What is my life’s purpose?
4. How can I design a life and not just make a living?
5. As an infinite being with infinite possibilities, how have I limited myself?

These are just a few empowering question, create some of your own…it’s fun and really helps break up the stuckness we all feel sometimes…

So when I asked Lindsey who taught her that musicians don’t make money, and she thought about it…then it hit her…she had a music professor in college that she really respected, and he said to her that musicians don’t make good money…and folks that is how our poverty consciousness is born…by well meaning people who spread and validate their limitation on others. Was this teacher trying to be an asshole to Lindsey or was he just spreading his limitation to her? Most likely not! Many of us who struggle with abundance were subconsciously programmed to struggle, to live on the edge or even taught to fail in life.

So why many of these women find value in these circles is because they are finally being introduced to people who care about their dreams, who are positive and introduce them to a more prosperity consciousness…so on the surface I agree that $5000 is not that much money, especially if you get a higher level of prosperity consciousness and it gets you focused on living your dreams. HOWEVER…here is the problem with this…as people are making great strives in personal growth and prosperity/reciprocity, they do start dreaming, they do start to thinking bigger, they do increase their hopes of a better life…and then when it becomes known that what they were in was a scam, the math fails, and there are real losers, now the person is even more wounded moving forward…they now many times feel that in order to succeed, they have to scam others, that all that talk of living your dreams was bullshit…instead of getting closer to their dreams, they are now a lot further from them and even worse disillusioned and further from their success then ever.
To the losers comes broken dreams, and more proof they are not worthy or good enough, to the winners comes guilt and remorse (if they have a conscious)…
For $5000, you can go and do a lot of personal growth workshops, buy books, hire coaches/mentors, invest in yourself, or just give it away to charity to the 2 billion people living in true poverty in the world with no bullshit expecting of getting it back at an 800% return and call it gifting…$5000 could feed a village in Africa for a week, it could be close for kids who don’t have any or a water treatment filter that could provide clean water on an on going basis to a village…that is real gifting…not this bullshit of giving some women a bunch of cash because she got in before you, and you getting cash back because you joined before someone else.

And final note…although I charge money for my coaching or if I do a workshop…at times I love to gift people my time like with Lindsey. I loved at the end of our talk she asked me how I much she owes me for my 3 hours…and I said to her, just pay it forward…and wow did she ever…this blog has spread a hundred fold what I gave to Lindsey, and she not only paid it forward, but in an exponential way. She is a true leader in her community, and I personally am so proud of her. What an example she is setting, she is truly a powerful Goddess who is spreading love and truth. I know she is being attacked by others who fear her truth. But it is not stopping her and that is true power, true leadership, and truly making a difference. This courage is what she will require to one day share a stage with Paul Simon and live her dreams. The payday for living your dreams is priceless! And yet the more we live our dreams, most of the time money follows, and most importantly so does joy, happiness, love, fulfillment, and making a difference in the world…

So women (and men) please don’t buy into the bullshit scam…I am not coming from fear or repression. I am coming from my heart, my mind, my soul…I have nothing to gain by warning you not to get involved with this. I make nothing, this is my gifting…I hope you receive it!!! Where as the people trying to justify it do have an agenda, they do want to get your money into it, so that they will profit…so who is coming from fear, who is coming from greed, who is feeling desperate, who is really selling you a false dream…
I truly hope everyone who reads this examines their own prosperity consciousness issues and examines the limitations they have been taught. I hope everyone can remember they are an infinite beings capable of anything they put their heart, mind, and soul into. That each of us is part of a great unfolding, we are the cutting edge of the reality we want to see in the world and it is up to us to set that example. Trust that change is happening, just because many others or parts of society are not there yet, keep blazing a trail we can follow…we will get there. Please don’t get discouraged by all that is wrong in the world, or use that as a reason to act accordingly. We are the change we have been waiting for. Live your life as an example to those who are not their yet. Have compassion and love for those who are not their yet…don’t villianize them, just smile at them and give them love and keep welcoming them to join us in creating a better world…to have the peace, oneness and unity we all want, it has to include everyone…even the bankers, Wall Street people, loggers, politicians, and everyone else…
I love you all…I pray for peace and healing to us all…our world is a amazing place, and we all are part of that amazingness! So do the women’s circle if you want to, it is your right…but please ask yourself if this is best you can do to bring value to the world?

Scott, I appreciate your encouraging words and attempts to spin things positive. You clearly strive for the best. But I have to say not all of it is entirely realistic.

You speak about your friend Lindsey and her struggles in the music industry. I, too, am a musician, and tho I do not make anywhere close to what Paul Simon makes, I make a perfectly comfortable living performing around the world and I love what I do.

I am also a statistical anomaly.

When I was in college, the Dean of the Conservatory addressed all the incoming musicians–singers, instrumentalists, etc.–and said, “The reality is only about 1-3% of you will make your livings as performers. The rest will supplement your incomes through other jobs, or teaching, or choose a different path entirely. But even here, at one of the premiere Conservatories in the country, the odds are 1-3%.”

And she was right. Looking about me and who my classmates were at the time…I’d say maybe we hit 5%, because we had a strong class that year. But on average, totally correct.

now, being told that “nobody makes money making music” is literally untrue, but it ain’t far off. Very few people do. A very very small % make enormous amounts of money. it’s like being an actor. Of the hundreds of thousands of people trying to make it in acting, there are a few who make millions, a couple % who make a decent living, and the rest struggle forever or quit. Same with athletics. Of all the kids striving to be in the NBA, only a precious few make it. This is simply reality.

The reason I bring this up is because we live in a time where no one wants to hear reality, it seems. We’re all told that we have infinite potential, that whatever we envision and dream we can do, and only our self limiting attitudes keep us from getting there. Not surprisingly, this is the same language that the Circle culture uses to lure people in.

However, having spoken to many young musicians earlier on the path that I have taken, I advise them to be very realistic. For example, going tens of thousands of $$ into debt to go to grad school to pursue a career where they have a 97% chance of not being able to support themselves in their field of study,….doesn’t strike me as a wise move. But every year people are told to “just believe”, and they screw themselves over for decades financially speaking from crippling debt. It isn’t a poverty consciousness that does it. It’s that the career is highly competitive, not fair, not a meritocracy, and oftentimes not profitable. That is just reality. And people need to hear it, so that they go in with their eyes wide open. If the reality is too discouraging…then…maybe they should choose something else. If they play simply for the passion of it and the love of it, then awesome.

I truly respect what you are saying about it being tough to make in the music industry and many other professions as well. Success to me is an inside job…what I mean by that is our success many times comes from own thoughts about our success. I have studied this for 20 years…what makes someone be in that 1-20% who beat the odds and find success where so many others fail??? Of course talent is a key ingredient, but we all agree that many talented people don’t make it…so what is that X-factor that almost all successful share? They fully believe in themselves, they have an alignment of their thoughts and actions that produce results. They also have a magnetic nature that attracts the right connections. Now I also get that a little luck is sometimes needed as well…however luck tends to favor the prepared mind.
I’m glad you are in the minority of musicians who can support their dreams and make a living doing what they love…
So always remember that stats only apply to the masses, not the expectional…so for the 90+% that don’t make it, the stats apply, but to the ones that do make it, they really did not have 1-10% of making it…for them it was really they had 90+% chance of making it…
I know we can go back in forth over whether people’s success is luck or skill…I personally choose the skill side of things. Again when I say skill I am referring to talent mixed with ambission, hard work and the thoughts in their head being in ailment with their purpose. The laws of attraction bring people who have these traits into the right place at the right time to find success. And lastly when our thoughts are in ailment with our purpose we tend to not sabotage our success as well…
Now I can hear people thinking, this sounds a lot like what women of gifting circle are teaching/sharing…there is a big difference to me…as a musician you are bringing value to this world, the gifting circle is only offering smoke and mirrors, with the product being a false reality of success. Because those who succeed (with a conscious) will someday regret being involved. You will never regret playing music and sharing your gifts…
Anon you say you make enough to support life playing music…the only difference between you and Paul Simon is the amount of people your music reaches…what if you could play your music to 10 or 100 times as many people. What if your concerts played thousands vs hundred…or millions instead of thousands??? How cool would that be!

Wow. Well, Huitzilin, it is as expected, really. The fog of self delusion is so thick that no amount of fact or reason can penetrate. No matter how you gloss it up, you still are a hypocrite. You rail against money and say that 5k isn’t that much…but to a lot of people, a LOT, 5k is the difference between feeding their family, or paying their rent, or paying medical bills….and not. How arrogant you are. And you conveniently ignore the math, which states unequivocally that the vast majority of people will not be paid off. And there is no guarantee that the person you gave 5k to will, as you said, buy your car later on. (In which case….think about it…*you just gave them a free car*….are you really that dense?)

As I mentioned elsewhere, you aren’t interested in truth, you’re only interested in preserving your belief. So you reframe it, you try to apply pseudo spiritual mumbo jumbo, you throw up distractions and nonsense. It’s so pathetic. The good thing is, tho, the more you write, the more obvious it becomes, and the fewer people will join.
So in a way….thank you. Thank you for being as absurd as you are. You are truly gifting now. In fact, you are doing more good than you know. Oh…the irony.

The Circle Sisters should be saying..”Oy! I’m in a scam, and it’s morally indefensible, and I’m ashamed I was duped. How can I repair the damage and provide restitution to those I’ve lured into this thing?”

Scott, as much as I love your post and as much as I believe that these schemes are a social virus infecting people and communities, and using money as “fuel” (as someone above said), you still make some assumptions about what is happening in these circles. Clearly, by the very way that the circles grow and split, they have the possibility to mutate over time. This mutation can mean “evolving” (changing the rules so that they are “better”, less infectious, more beneficial to the members, adding more full-disclosure, slower growing, perhaps even asking the dessert to explain what she will do with the money, etc), it this can mean “devolving”. The truth is that there’s no way to tell. And, this very conversation is changing the face of what some women call “circle culture” (even though this culture is hard to pinpoint since the circles continue to mutate all the time) though some circle lineage might be kept in some degree of integrity by elder sisters, who knows?

So how do we know which circles are beneficial and how much they positively impact the face of our communities? And how many are detrimental and impacting the communities negatively? Which is greater? And how is reaching critical mass and slowing down the various circles impacting the women in it (as they see growth slowing down) and the women outside of it (as they experience alienation, loss of trust and broken relationships). What role is greed playing into all this? What role is “brainwashing” playing into all this? What role is secrecy playing into all this? What role is illegality playing into all this?

These are just a few of the questions present and I see many people jumping in (including you, Scott) with answers without actually KNOWING what is at play at a larger scale. And the problem is, it would be nearly impossible to actually get answers that is close to the real truth. All we have is inference and math, which tells us very little other than that this scheme is bound to collapse. But it doesn’t tell us how it will collapse, not even how this conversation will change how it will collapse.

But there’s one thing I’m sure:

Women (and men) should not play with one of our communities greatest asset (trust) with such a high degree of certainty of failure and such a high degree of uncertainty about how this failure will play out (though research of past scheme infections usually don’t show much positivity).

Think about it: would you give your child or best friend a drug that has been shown to only show amazing positive effect in 10% of recipients and having a huge change of unknown side effects to recipients and their communities? I certainly would not — even if the child or friend begged me for it — because their desire would not be the only thing standing in the balance: what happens to the community would too.

And so this is what is missing in most of the conversations above: a true answer to how this will play out in the individuals (in our outside of these circles) and on the communities they overlap with. Clearly there’s some positive impact with some circles, but there’s also a clear negative impact on some women and on communities.

I don’t think the positive impact is worth the potential cost, and since we cannot know either one, continuing to allow these circles is foolish at best and violates many of the principles of permaculture:

1. Observe and interact: By taking time to engage with nature we can design solutions that suit our particular situation.
2. Catch and store energy: By developing systems that collect resources at peak abundance, we can use them in times of need.
3. Obtain a yield: Ensure that you are getting truly useful rewards as part of the work that you are doing.
4. Apply self-regulation and accept feedback: We need to discourage inappropriate activity to ensure that systems can continue to function well.
5. Use and value renewable resources and services: Make the best use of nature’s abundance to reduce our consumptive behavior and dependence on non-renewable resources.
6. Produce no waste: By valuing and making use of all the resources that are available to us, nothing goes to waste.
7. Design from patterns to details: By stepping back, we can observe patterns in nature and society. These can form the backbone of our designs, with the details filled in as we go.
8. Integrate rather than segregate: By putting the right things in the right place, relationships develop between those things and they work together to support each other.
9. Use small and slow solutions: Small and slow systems are easier to maintain than big ones, making better use of local resources and producing more sustainable outcomes.
10. Use and value diversity: Diversity reduces vulnerability to a variety of threats and takes advantage of the unique nature of the environment in which it resides.
11. Use edges and value the marginal: The interface between things is where the most interesting events take place. These are often the most valuable, diverse and productive elements in the system.
12. Creatively use and respond to change: We can have a positive impact on inevitable change by carefully observing, and then intervening at the right time.

You say that no one knows how these circles will collapse. We do know. The options:

1) The unsustainable model forces it to collapse
2) Law enforcement steps in
3) People leave once they see it can’t possibly work.

And then most people, not “some”, are left with nothing. They don’t get their money back, because in most cases (do some research and read histories of these things), the money is already spent.

You also mention that we don’t know how these circles will modify or evolve. True. But the model is still inherently unsustainable. In every way. It might get slowed, but eventually people lose patience. This isn’t some grand new experiment, and human nature, even in happy goddess abundance garb, isn’t all that different. When these things have sprung up in Xian circles, all filled with love for each other’s neighbors and helping each other out…they still collapse. No new economic paradigm is going to spring up from these, sorry to burst your bubble. The fact is, *people enter these circles because of the promise of making money. Lots of money.*. It is wrapped in soothing rhetoric, but if the *true* idea was gifting those in need for the sake of doing it, then groups of women would simply get together, decide on a cause that was worthy, and donate money. And that is called…..a charity. And thousands of them exist. Many wonderful ones. Or people do a Kickstarter to raise funds to help with medical bills. And there is no expectation of a return. So let’s not pretend that the idea of getting back gobs of dough isn’t totally part of this. I’m so baffled at the level of self delusion by some parties in this thread.

If it were about giving, there would be no structure designed to provide a return. But curiously, there is. Funny, that.

Indeed, you are correct: they will collapse. But I think many assumptions (some good and based in real life examples, some just guesses that are made to sound like reality). All I’m saying is that, given the chance, anyone outside of these circles (especially people who have friends in them) should have an eye for new ways to support these circles to mutate into something more sustainable, legal, and where people see that it can work.

So that’s my call to you and everyone else: bring it.

Some ideas:

– Remove the exponential growth component (or at least slow down growth immensely, which is better but not as good)
– Focus on the personal development aspects
– Dessert donates a great portion (perhaps everything except $5K or $10K) to a charity or a local business or person in need (voted by the whole circle)
– Make the circle a real circle (ie not a pyramid) and joining dues (and $$ is split between the various members)

I haven’t looked into or considered the possible personal and community impact of each of these solutions, but my point is, can we support a mutation towards something good?

Philippe,
I would love to share with you how it ends…as many women as possible should refund the money recieved from others…now I realize that much of that money has been spent, so it is up to each transaction to make it right with each other if money cannot be refunded. Many of these women are friends and if the bonding is as real as they claim, then they will be able work out an energy exchange to make this right…
BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY IT JUST NEEDS TO STOP NOW!!! No more insanity…no more victims…
When you are digging yourself into a hole…the key to getting out is to stop digging first…then work on climb out…
To the women doing this and the men who support them…if you truly did not know and got involved…I’m sorry you got involved. Now if you keep doing it to recoup your investment (gift) back, then you are truly a lame person.
Lastly I can only hope the losers in this truly gain a $5000 lesson and are a lot smarter going forward. I know I was for taking my losses in life. No body likes losing, but if the right lessons are learned it can be priceless. In fact I bet this same circle goes underground again soon to pop back up in 5-10 years to offer itself to a generation of women who don’t know any better…will you be the one to stand up to it like Lindsey, others and I have or will you stay quiet?

I would not worry too much about Huitzilin. It’s more trolling that anything else.

However he/she has some good points (as my interest is not to discredit individuals but rather to reach a deeper truth where we all meet) around the money. $5000 is not a crazy sum of money and most (not all) can spare it, work more/harder, and make it back. And so with full disclosure (on the decreasing chance of reaching dessert) , such circles and their structure would end up looking more like gambling than anything else (which is not to say “harmless*, as the harmful effects of gambling on individuals and communities are well known). And, the circles also have qualities that make them look a bit like cults (secrecy, alienation, loss of trust, etc) which also have their own harmful effects. But having said all that, we cannot assume how each individual will be impacted by the loss of $5000. Overall, the general impact could be any negative (and definitely some possible positive) reactions. And then, as this person works through that loss, what will come out of it.

In our community, we are just starting to dismantle our circle(s)via some key individuals. Once the circle is dismantled as much as is possible on a local level, then alternative structures can be introduced.

In my opinion, it seems important to stop/dismantle the pyramid structure and get clean monetary agreements in place before introducing a new legal structure to support the empowerment/coaching aspect of the circles.

My suggestion has been to return all “gifts” if possible, and if not possible, to turn the “gifts” into loans in the short term and agree on a form of repayment that is acceptable to the gifter. Document the loan via a promissory note, etc. This should allow the participants to escape any legal prosecution.

After a year, if the gifter wants to forgive the loan, then the recipient creates an invoice for coaching services and reports the money as income on her taxes. Again, no evasion of legal obligation.

As a scholar in the academic field of Transpersonal Psychology,
(which is the study of the philosophy and psychology behind religions, spiritual
traditions, and belief systems and a variety of other strange and interesting
perspectives looking at how humans have evolved their spiritual and not so
spiritual belief systems through the course of time),

In my humble, and professional, opinion, I do believe that this circle game is hiding behind the delusion of enlightenment. Utilizing money as a way to demonstrate how spiritual you are is not going to make you more spiritual…
(aka cold hard cash, not clothes, food, trinkets, time, or labor gifts like true
giving or barter economies)
In this particular sense, where money is so intensely being implemented as the driving force or motivating factor behind spiritual growth and awakening, ponzi-circles demonstrate that those individuals facilitating these quasi-spiritual groups are in fact hiding behind the cloak of spiritual enlightenment, and have in fact integrated the deep fear situated in the shadow of the west coast spiritual culture into their own ego strategies motivated by the fear of not having enough, or belief in the lack of abundance (Not the belief in abundance they are claiming to perpetuate, but the scramble to get all that you can so you get the last worm, forget that slow kid with a limp… its about survival of the fittest (WTF?!)) We’re like, so spiritual, bro.
The very foundation of believing women need to band together in a secret monetary society literally shits on the concept of having wealth and abundance, living in a gifting economy of equals, (what if your kid is a boy!? is he screwed at age 3?).

If you really need help and support, getting handed wads of cash isn’t going to fix your problem, in fact it makes circle participants no better than insider traders on Wall Street, the very 1% that everyone is so upset created a money circle the 99% does not have access to, and is not invited to. Hmmmm sounds familiar…

Believing that you can become so spiritually better than another through giving other people money is what the Catholic Church called Indulgences, or giving money to be higher up in a spiritual community, which touts that those who pay money will more easily find their way to heaven and be more readily welcomes by God. WTF HELLOO WAKE UP

This is the same spiritual bypassing bullshit belief system that cult leaders, corrupt guru’s who have sex with alllll of their followers, and corporate Assholes who enslave children in the dark to make soccer balls are all prescribing to. Now, really, if we are searching for true abundance, lets stop lying to ourselves, its really the first step. Money will not fix the problem, if you can’t find happiness without gobs of money the happiness you find with more monies won’t be very different….Same story, different color letters…

If you really want to love and support each other, try circles without money, where you help each other with projects, volunteer your time to help each other sew clothes, cook together, plant a garden, teach your children… for free – time & real Love is worth way more than money any day, ask any terminally ill person without emotional support. Seriously, none of us need more stuff… lets not support the throw away consumer culture, lets actually spend our energies doing things like developing better schools to educate our kids in, not buy them more dresses…

I totally agree with this comment. I was recently approached by two fellow Sisters in the Tantra Community. This is happening now in Australia. I only had to do a google search to become aware that this was a pyramid scam and the reason why I did a search was because of two red flags, which was the secrecy and the claim that these circles assist women who are experiencing abuse. Glad I looked into it!

I appreciate the article and every comment here! I would like to support the vision to take what is good from this culture and transform it somehow into a sustainable way for women and men both whom have little skills to thrive in this world and support themselves and their children in a way that does NO harm and is out of the shadows, full transparency in the Light! I personally have been involved and departed various circles. It took me awhile to see and integrate all. I am only seeing the math now thanks to you all whom are breaking the big picture down.

I departed women’s wisdom ($5000 circle) very quickly. I was sponsored in as if it were a precious opportunity when really the whole sponsorship/ backing idea is rooted in GREED as the one backing you receives half of all your gifts! (Took some time for me to integrate such). I hated the protocol and the requirement to bring 2 other woman on before moving up. It felt very masculine. Most of my relations are mamas without money so this was not even a feasibility for me even if for a moment I tried. Just imagining being in dessert and having to read other woman all the protocol did not resonate with me at all. There was invite training, and three way calls for potential invites, weekly required group teleconference sharing, and required checking in with the dessert. NO NO NO thank you. The women were great and I remain grateful for our connection but the container felt repulsive to the Divine Feminine within.

Around the same time I was leaving this $5000 circle I was approached with the opportunity to be backed in Vision Sisters from a high vibe sister I know. The gift $1440. (half of which would go to high vibe sis when I went into receiving). This circle felt different. Fluid. Feminine. Collective. A simple one page invite to share. NO bullshit protocol or focus upon whom to invite or not to invite, NO focus on secrecy or invite training or any stifling protocol. NO requirement for bringing other women on. One could move up and receive without bringing anyone on essentially. We all invited collectively. There were no weekly requirements for phone teleconferences. There was only an optional call at “birthing”. Communication and unification of the group was primarily via text. Everything I hated about the other circle did not exist in this one. I jumped in with a grateful YES.

In a four day whirlwind of seeming magic I reached the space next to receiving. I brought on three or four women (all were thankfully backed; none gifted any $). I took a strong leadership role when the receiver (a very sweet and sincere woman) was less then present due to over saturation on multiple $5000 circles. Much magic and synchronicity and healing arose from our collective connection. I say this sincerely with full clarity in the inherent flaws in the system which dissuade me from further participation now.

I withdrew eventually for two reasons. First, I saw the root greed and stagnancy created by backing women in. Most women backed in (meaning they came in with $0 gifted) did not participate (share, inspire, bare their souls) very much, creating a stagnancy. Just seeing that the majority of women are backed into these circles was an AHA moment in itself. Second, I was not in alignment with the idea of backing a woman to “help” her only to receive half of each one of her gifts if and when she ever made it into receiving position. This to me is a covertly deceptive maneuver that took a moment for me to see.

I put a lot of time and heart, love, energy, and hope into this circle the fruits of which were beyond $. I never did receive any $ and left before coming into receiving and am very grateful for this now. I came to the conclusion that despite $1440 feeling so much more comfortable to me then $5000 it is way too much money for me to ask of someone and hence receive. Too big of a risk for me personally. Put another way, if I had that much cash I would not give it to a circle. It was intimated by some that these were blocks to my abundance and that the number does not matter which in a sense is correct and true. But for me, personally, anything above a couple hundred bucks is not something I am willing to spend on anyone but my child, real community, or personal survival needs.

After being in vision sisters some months, I was approached to join yet another new collective, fluid, feminine circle called Medicine Wheel where the gift is $500 and no backing allowed. Progress!! (and one of the many modifications one of the comments above spoke of although still not effecting the numbers). Essentially, a woman could be “backed” in but would not be required to give half of all her gifts. She simply would be required to delay the giving of her one $500 gift until she was in receiving and this was called sponsorship (different then sponsorship in women’s wisdom where one is required to bring on 2 others before moving up a tier). I entered the circle and after two weeks I was in receiving. Then it began to slow down. I held the space and shared my spiritual gifts and vulnerabilities and humanness and stories and weaknesses and had fun with it all primarily via group text.

I received my first ever gift on a full moon. I had a awful horrible confrontation/ fight/ trauma with a very male old paradigm authority figure that day that left me crying and wrapped in a ball in deep anguish and pain. This ignited me to have a “breakthrough” as they say in circle, the details of which are personal but which ignited a huge Wave of movement in and outside of circles for me. That very same night I was offered my first gift. I really needed the money for food to feed my child and when it came I was indeed grateful and uplifted. I received one more gift after that before passing the circle onward in yet another realization that even $500 was too much to ask and that there existed flaws that were contraindicative of gifting, such as expecting a refund if one decided to leave before cycling through.

The whole premise of the gifting culture is that a gift is a gift and given without expectation of return. Expecting a refund upon leaving a circle reveals that one was only interested in investment and didn’t give a shit about the personal transformation work and collective space held and potential therein to raise the vibration and uplift each other and the planet. The way I saw it, the larger monied circles of $5000, $1440, even $500 were such a risk for people that the principle of giving sincerely without expectation of return was compromised, as revealed in the unspoken protocol to return a woman’s gift (with the next gift if there *is* a next gift) if she chose to leave a circle. I saw this created stagnancy and went against the gifting principles at the root of these spaces and distracted from the potential for transformational growth.

So I moved on to yet another circle where the risk was next to nothing minimal $108 in hopes that the purity of circle could sustain without the distortions and fears that come with risk. The $ was non-refundable and no backing or sponsorship allowed. Only freely gifting a space to a friend or paying $108 participation (vs. gift) fee payable via paypal. No more hiding in the shadows! Open to men and affordable to all in this western culture. I cycled through a couple times and brought many on without hesitation, many of whom fared better then me money wise. I used the money I received in this circle to pay for a workshop where I acquired skills to serve postpartum mamas.

Yet even with gradual improvements the big elephant in the room did not disappear. That being that $$$$$ was the magnet for every one of these circles, regardless, of the fee to join. This somehow distracts the majority from the true purpose of these spaces and very few people genuinely participate to the level required to make it a real transformational workshop! For those that do the gifts beyond money can be bountiful. I did indeed give and receive a lot (beyond $). Eventually, I got tired of putting so much energy out with very little collaboration and at times I witnessed outright cattiness, aggression, and greed revealed by women dropping from circles like flies if they were not birthing in a day. After all, the $100 risk was next to nothing so what was there to lose? Much chaos ensued resulting in demands for masculine structure and protocol, invite training calls, etc. which I wanted no part of. I stayed in a couple circles with gentle folk. There was little participation and movement and in the end stagnancy. I dropped out of 3 circles I never cycled through and will not be joining any more. I have since been asked to join a $50 circle and many other numbers besides. lol Needless to say I am done.

It is not until today that I have actually seen the numbers spelled out! I could not see the bigger picture before now. I can relate to the one sister whom talks of “female” math in the sense that numbers can not measure the fluid exchange that happens within a circle, nor grace or karma, tenacity, ambition, or participation. This is akin to measuring the intelligence and learning of a child via standardized tests. What numbers can do is predict the success of the whole, the percentages of which I am not comfortable with. I withdrew after experiencing for myself the inner workings both positive and negative of these spaces. The numbers confirm for me the unsustainability and inherent flaws that exist in these containers, regardless of form or formlessness, protocols and progressions. With that said, there are no victims here. Some very big losses and lessons YES indeed for many. I was protected by the “poverty” of single motherhood from losing any money and am grateful for all that I shared with many as well as the relatively small amount of money that allowed me to learn tangible ways to serve women and purchase food for my child at a time I was down to nothing $.

Thank you Lindsey and those whom have shared with us non mathematical brains the numbers involved here. I highly doubt even the very first woman (or man) whom thought up this structure back in the 80s or 90s could foresee where this would go exponentially and how many would lose. I sincerely believe the original intent was pure in its desire to help women create a way to thrive in empowerment and abundance. I am feeling a next step for this whole culture to evolve in a way where losses are eliminated, legality is clear and embraced, and opportunities for those on the fringes of a collapsing patriarchal economy are plenty in Divine Service, Balance, and Value.

I am embarrassed to say that although I am highly educated and as I thought smart, I was entrapped to the seductive lure behind this culture about a year ago when my very successful artist neighbor asked me to be part of something that could in fact allow me to spend more time with my art, enrich my personal reflective journey, have more time to do things that matter. While attending grad school and working full time I was very burnt out and ready for a break, she got me at the perfect moment one day and I immediately said yes without going and searching on the internet for something like this.. not until later. I fortunately did not gift any money, she backed me. Why did I do this??? Because she not only was convincing that this was legal and although people have taken advantage of many things there have been times where this circle was abused as well. I had no idea. She also stated that it was working for her very close friend and that her friend had almost paid off her student loans and I could do that as well. It was wonderful at first until her and the first dessert exited all within 6 weeks of joining. I though wow this is moving very fast and very much working. I then was asked to join a second circle, in which I said yes too but had to maneuveur my gifting because I invited a very close childhood friend that I was going to “back” thinking that this is working and worth it. But it worked out magically where I backed her half and another lady backed me another half in the second circle. The “gift” is $5,000, however I split my gift in two circles, $2,500 in the first circle to back my friend and $2,500 in the new second circle while at the same time someone backed my friend the second $2,500 and the person who invited me to the 2nd circle backed the second half. But then that is when things started getting super fishy. The woman who initially invited me was also Dessert of the 2nd circle. I was very hesitant to go into the circle because the invitation process is brutal. Who has $5,000, I was told however that the 2nd circle was a “mature” circle and to join must have a full gift. Therefore, as the logic goes, the circle I join will move faster. The Dessert said she would help me with the invitation process of which I looked at as helping me find someone to join circle. Implied belief I had. In fact she had no intentions of helping me in which her and a group of her friends were whipping circles quick and leaving fall out for later. These “Yoga” “Spiritualists” “Women of Integrity” were in fact just very good manipulators knowing that they were making a lot of money off of people like myself and others. Those are my thoughts. So while this Dessert was off to Mexico to join a wedding from one of the women that paid for her wedding through circle and her student loans, she left behind the circle to close again. The 2nd circle was moving rapidly and ready to split just after I joined. I got out. I felt this was not right and asked for my money back immediately. There were insults from her such as “how selfish and self-centered” of you to pull out of circle just as these women were ready for it to split. Crazy things were said like that. Funny thing my car battery died that week and my other car had issues too, I did not have the money and quite frankly it scared me if anything else went wrong.. this was my emergency money while going to school. But she did not care. She was ready to grab the money and end this circle so she could move on to the next, is how I feel. The woman start out as very nice and friendly and loving to get what they want then when they dont get what they want.. watch out.

The first circle I joined then started to fall apart. My childhood friend left not without being very traumatized by circles culture. They never returned the other half of the $2,500 that backed her. What was to happen was that another woman was to come in and take her place and gift her the money. What happened is that Dessert was gifted and that $2,500 was forgotten about. I am in the midst of retrieving it. Any advice would be appreciated.

I appreciate how well written and thought though this article is, but I am disappointed you did not mention many other aspects that go into this equation besides negatively slanted ones. Your article is one sided and very tainted with emotionalized opinion. The truth is, people are creating this and people are signing up because there is a need, both emotional and financial to do something different with our money and energy. Women from all walks of life are saying yes to this and it isn’t always because people lied to them or manipulated them.

I do believe this is likely an unsustainable model and no one should gain if anyone else is going to loose. It is unethical. However, greed is not motivating everyone and many, many women do actually gain a deeper community from this. Discernment and transparency is key. I know lots of women who are completely transparent about the risks and rewards of this process. Is it greedy to want to help a woman with 5,000 in hopes that one day you will be helped? How do people get out of a cycle of living paycheck to paycheck? Is this model more greedy than the stock market, giving money to banks, etc.?

I don’t think so, at the very minimum, each woman who joins gets to help one woman get ahead with there $5,000. What is the harm in helping one woman? Could it be possible that consciousness created this system because there is a need for it? Could this model be a stepping stone for a more sustainable one in which no one looses? It is possible and if humanity awakens to a point in which we consider everyone, then it will likely arise. For now, this is what we have.

If this continues, many women may loose, but giving money to one woman and having a transformational experience, whether gain or loss happens is still beneficial. Giving money to help a regular woman in this process is ultimately the same risk as getting married (50% failure rate), having children (#1 cause of bankruptcy), etc. yet people still get married and have children. When a relationship fails are there people who wished they never got married in the first place? Sure. Is there heartache and some severed relationships? Sure. Yet, with a different perspective, there is gain for how could the person have gained so much awareness and learning without that particular relationship? The conscious ones, the wise ones, find gain in every loss. Equally, there is loss in every gain.

I believe there are equal numbers of people who are grateful for all they learned in the process even if the outcome was not what they hoped for initially. Should we ask people not to get married simply because 50% will fail?

In life we take many risks. Is this the best one? This is for each individual to decide. If you can think of a sustainable model in which people can generally get ahead in this society, I am all ears, but you did not write about it.

You should interview the many women who have had positive experiences and write about that.

Aloha Danielle,
Again I am very supportive of women and equality on not just voting and decisions, but financially as well. I truly believe in equal work and equal pay. I do also believe that two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because our stupid and outdated system makes people work pay check to pay check and gives most of the wealth to the top 1% does not mean your gifting program is ethical or beneficial. In fact it is straight out of the same consciousness as our current system with a lovie-dovie feel good twist.
Your logic to me is false that marriage is 50/50 so why not a gifting circle. If you read all the post we all, using math figured out there is a 13% of winning and a 87% chance of losing. Also your winning in a gifting circle will equal 8 times the losers later. if someone gets a divorce that does not ruin 8 other couples marriages later.
Again as I have said before I am totally ok with charity of course. In fact today I just gave money to the efforts to help the people and first responders to help the people who got buried in the WA state Oso landslide. Charity is wonderful…and I expect nothing in return for giving to this crisis, it just feels right and I have something to give, I don’t expect to get my $250 back, let alone get $2000 back (8×250)!!!
Personally I don’t have much more to say…it’s all in this thread of comments…I don’t want to rehash things again…

But I will end with 2 things…

1. many of these circles have imploded already and there are lots of losers…don’t kid yourself…

2. this article from the Hartford, CT newspaper a few months back…this could be you…Danielle and all the women who think this ok what you are doing, please consider this, I know you have a good heart, and I would hate to see the system jail you for this…but $40000 is a major fraud felony case. There are real losers and the to the winners should be a warning of the loser may not be so kind later when the gig is up and they turn you in.

HARTFORD — A pair of Shoreline women received multi-year jail sentences Tuesday for their leadership roles in the Women’s Gifting Table pyramid scheme after making tearful apologies in court for inflicting harm on others.

Judge Alvin W. Thompson imposed a six-year sentence on Donna Bello, who started the pyramid scheme in Connecticut, and a 4.5-year prison term on Jill Platt, with each also receiving three years of supervised release at the end of their terms.

The women, both of Guilford, will surrender into custody Oct. 15 and pay restitution totaling $32,000 to five women who lost money in the tables. Bello must also pay a $15,000 fine.

Bettejane Hopkins, the third woman arrested in May 2012 in connection with the scheme, is set to be sentenced today and pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to defraud the IRS in December.

Attorneys for Bello and Platt said they plan to file appeals. While Jonathan J. Einhorn, who represents Platt, had no comment after the sentence. He contended during court that Platt was a victim similar to other table participants.

Norm Pattis, who represents Bello, called the result “an outrage.”

“They’ve put gifting table participants in prison for 4.5 to six years. When was the last time you saw the government pursuing predatory bankers?” Pattis said after court.

But Assistant U.S. Attorney Douglas P. Morabito said a jail sentence was important not only because Bello and Platt misled participants and targeted women “in dire financial straits,” but also because it may serve as a deterrent to women still operating tables in Southington.

“It’s a crime, and it went on for several years, and is one that wreaked havoc on the Shoreline community,” said Morabito, who scoffed at Einhorn’s assertion that Platt was a victim.

Sentences for Bello and Platt stem from a 17-day trial this winter in which a jury convicted them of wire fraud, conspiracy to commit wire fraud, conspiracy to defraud the IRS and filing false tax returns.

They initially faced up to 14 years in jail.

Women joined the gifting tables by paying what they were told was a tax-free “gift” of $5,000 to a high-ranking member and then recruited other women. As more joined, members climbed the table’s four levels before reaching the highest status and receiving $5,000 from eight women. Once they received $40,000, they left the table or rejoined.

The government said someone is always left on the bottom and that there aren’t enough people to keep the structure going.

Many women testified they used child support checks, retirement money, credit card advances and money for bills to pay the $5,000 to join a table and never made back the money. One woman ended up enduring foreclosure proceedings after being involved in tables.

Thompson said that while the government estimated Platt caused a fraud loss of $1.4 million, he reduced the calculation to $882,500 based on what transactions could be proven. As for Bello, the government had estimated a fraud loss of $1.5 million, while Thompson brought it down to $1.3 million.

Both women, who never addressed the court before, said they never intended to hurt anyone, although Platt admitted she joined a table to make money for $2,300 monthly insurance payments. Her painting business was hurt by the economy, which made it difficult to continue paying for insurance and medicine for her husband, she said. She joined a table after Bello brought the idea to the state and many others had joined.

Others eventually considered Platt the “second-most knowledgeable” about the tables, according to Thompson, and she assisted in recruiting and training others, while also advising them on how to avoid sending up “red flags” to the IRS.

“My intent was to help others who were in similar situations, who needed more money to survive, quite frankly,” Platt said, later adding that a friend who recruited her told her tables were legal.

With a son and other families in the courtroom, an emotional Platt added, “I wish to apologize now for all the time, resources and effort of federal people and to my poor family who already suffered so much, and to have to put them through this is more than any mother would want to do to her children.”

Her family had previously dealt with deaths and illnesses of family members.

Bello said she had seen the tables as a “safe environment” where women supported each other and helped others in the community, but that she “kidded” herself and “deceived others.”

“I still struggle daily with how something I thought could be so good turned out to be something disastrous for my family and those who participated in gifting tables with me,” she said, adding that she is “heartily sorry” and has learned from the experience.

She said she is worried about leaving behind her husband, once-prominent New Haven businessman Joel Schiavone, along with her children and grandchildren, while she is incarcerated.

“I am deeply anguished by the pain and anxiety experienced by the women of the gifting tables. They were good souls, loving companions and didn’t deserve what happened to them,” Bello said, at times struggling to get the words out as Pattis stood by her at the courtroom podium.

She plans to sell her home to pay for restitution, back taxes and the $15,000 fine.

Though both defendants were visibly upset Tuesday about their roles, Morabito said they joked about possibly going to prison while still participating in tables.

Bello, Platt and other high-level participants were heard during trial on a secret recording talking about potential legal consequences.

Morabito pointed out a part in the transcript where Platt says they would get “free meals and a cot. Maybe we can all get the same (prison)wing.”

He said the women “made light” of the situation while knowing there was an attorney general investigation.

Still, Pattis and Einhorn attempted to argue for short or no sentences. Einhorn said Platt believed the tables were a legitimate enterprise when she first started, but acknowledged she eventually should have known something was amiss.

“There’s no question the time came when Jill Platt should have known better, that there’s no free lunch,” Einhorn noted.

Both attorneys attempted to use each other’s clients to help their own. Einhorn went on to say there’s “a world of difference” between Platt and Bello, since Bello started the tables in Connecticut, and Platt joined later after a friend told her they were legal and reviewed by an attorney.

Later, Pattis said Bello showed more remorse than Platt and that he would “not have been happy” if he were Platt’s lawyer.

But Thompson noted that many women lost money as a result of Bello and Platt’s actions and read emails written by Bello and Platt that showed they focused on monetary aspects of the tables and ways to stay out of jail.

“This is not the crime of the century,” Thompson said. “But I think for people who are victims, it’s probably the crime of their lifetimes.”