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Ok .. I've got a GOOD one for ya'll

I was planning on attending The Minnesota Weapons Collectors Association's gun show tomorrow at the State Fair complex in St. Paul MN. Taking into consideration that this show is not held in the best of neighborhoods I was planning on carrying my G19 open to the show.

Just for my own curiosity I had to check the website to see if guns were banned from the show.

I found this letter listed as "An open letter to visitors to the MWCA website"

After reading the letter and seeing that they comply with state law I let out a sigh of relief after realizing I would not have to store my firearm in my truck in a less than desirable neighborhood.

Well, that relief, it did not last very long. I then found this statement on the front page of the website " Important! Article VII Show Rules of Conduct, Section 5: Any item brought to a meeting (show) which, in the opinion of a majority of the Board Members present, is detrimental to the safety or best interest of this corporation will be barred. No loaded firearms except for authorized security personnel!"

All I can say is WHISKEY FOXTROT TANGO

They state that they comply with state and federal law on one page, and then reverse that or twist it to what suits them on the next.

This has to be the first website I have ever come across with NO contact email address and I have to assume this is why.

Sad day when you cant even go to a collectors gun show, WITH a permit to carry, in a HORRIBLE neighborhood, and not have to worry about leaving your firearm in the car where it could be potentially stolen.

I can not stop shaking my head over this nonsense.

- Knowledge is power and there IS strength in numbers -

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson

I did see that .. but then they go one to say they follow state law. My permit to carry affords me the right to carry on ALL state owned land and buildings with the exemptions of court houses and jails. The state fair is owned by the MN Department of AG - A state agency, making it state land. Therefore I should be able to carry at of all places a gun show in the HOOD.

--" # All firearm actions are secured, whether owned by exhibitors or the public.
# All local, state and federal laws are strictly followed. "

Contradiction ?

- Knowledge is power and there IS strength in numbers -

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson

I'm sure you can carry to the door, unload, have them check/secure weapon, and go in and look around. When you exit the doors, load it. Thats what I do at our local gun shows. They got a guy that zip ties them. Or you can say you never saw the web site.

I did see that .. but then they go one to say they follow state law. My permit to carry affords me the right to carry on ALL state owned land and buildings with the exemptions of court houses and jails. The state fair is owned by the MN Department of AG - A state agency, making it state land. Therefore I should be able to carry at of all places a gun show in the HOOD.

--" # All firearm actions are secured, whether owned by exhibitors or the public.
# All local, state and federal laws are strictly followed. "

Contradiction ?

No contradiction. The show owners are, at least during the show, the tenants of the building, exercising the full right to enjoy their property, including the right to prohibit loaded carry. That's getting to be the norm for gun shows. Insurance companies are refusing to insure shows that don't prohibit loaded carry.

anyway in the described context.... IT IS LEGAL FOR ME TO DO THIS IN MY STATE OF RESIDENCE until they ask me to leave then if I refuse I risk a trespassing charge, NOT A WEAPONS VIOLATION!

(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.

anyway in the described context.... IT IS LEGAL FOR ME TO DO THIS IN MY STATE OF RESIDENCE until they ask me to leave then if I refuse I risk a trespassing charge, NOT A WEAPONS VIOLATION!

Originally Posted by eye95

(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.

.

+1

Such thinking and posting is detrimental to public relations and our image. I never support breaking the intentionally.

Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-31-2010 at 10:56 AM.
Reason: added

You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

anyway in the described context.... IT IS LEGAL FOR ME TO DO THIS IN MY STATE OF RESIDENCE until they ask me to leave then if I refuse I risk a trespassing charge, NOT A WEAPONS VIOLATION!

Not an option at my gunshow. They have LEO working the door and they ask everyone entering, "Do you have any firearms or ammo?". Lying to the deputies is not a good idea. They can arrest you just for that if they twist it around enough I'm sure.

couldn't get the "quote with reply" function to do what I wanted here so....

Originally Posted by eye95

.

Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
Concealed is CONCEALED....

what they don't know.....

anyway in the described context.... IT IS LEGAL FOR ME TO DO THIS IN MY STATE OF RESIDENCE until they ask me to leave then if I refuse I risk a trespassing charge, NOT A WEAPONS VIOLATION!
(end of my original post)
(Start of what eye95 quoted)
(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
.

And I was NOT advocating ILLEGAL actions as I indicated in my original post. Which makes me even more glad that I live where I do. IN UTAH "NO WEAPONS" TYPE SIGNS HAVE NO LEGAL BEARING WHATSOEVER.

couldn't get the "quote with reply" function to do what I wanted here so....

Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
Concealed is CONCEALED....

what they don't know.....

anyway in the described context.... IT IS LEGAL FOR ME TO DO THIS IN MY STATE OF RESIDENCE until they ask me to leave then if I refuse I risk a trespassing charge, NOT A WEAPONS VIOLATION!
(end of my original post)
(Start of what eye95 quoted)
(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
.

And I was NOT advocating ILLEGAL actions as I indicated in my original post. Which makes me even more glad that I live where I do. IN UTAH "NO WEAPONS" TYPE SIGNS HAVE NO LEGAL BEARING WHATSOEVER.

Whether it is legal in your State is debatable, but moot.

The point is that the first part of your post is generally suggesting that people ignore no carry signs because they could successfully deceive the folks at the gun show by concealing. It is not debatable that what you are generally advocating is illegal in many jurisdictions.

I tried to be subtle. That clearly did not work. So, I will be blunt.

I find it reprehensible that you are advocating that others should break the law. IMO, your post violates the principles of this site.

In Minnesota, as in Alabama, simply carrying past a sign (and in MN there has to be a very specific sign) does not constitute a violation of the law.
In order to be in violation, you would have to carry inside, be asked to leave, and refuse.
You would then be in violation of trespassing laws.

I think you would be clearly legal carrying into the public areas of the fairgrounds, but once into their leased area you will have to follow their rules or leave.

Essentially the same reasoning that prevents us from carrying in secure areas of airports. "Our house, our rules. Don't like it? Go somewhere else", which I do whenever possible.

anyway in the described context.... IT IS LEGAL FOR ME TO DO THIS IN MY STATE OF RESIDENCE until they ask me to leave then if I refuse I risk a trespassing charge, NOT A WEAPONS VIOLATION!

I have been challenged by one stating that I am violating forum rules (advocating illegal activities) with my quoted post above...

Please let me clarify.... ONLY CONCEAL IF YOU CAN LEGALLY.
And in my State of Residence "NO WEAPONS" type signs have NO FORCE OF LAW. I can legally carry past these types of signs at locations open to the public. Now, IF I AM ASKED TO LEAVE BY ONE IN CONTROL OF THAT PROPERTY (for whatever reason) and I don't, then I may be guilty of trespassing IF THEY CAN PROVE THAT I substantially interfered with the owner's use of the property! see 76-6-206(4)(a) + (b)

76-6-206. Criminal trespass.
(1) As used in this section, "enter" means intrusion of the entire body.
(2) A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, under circumstances not amounting to burglary as defined in Section 76-6-202, 76-6-203, or 76-6-204 or a violation of Section 76-10-2402 regarding commercial obstruction:
(a) the person enters or remains unlawfully on property and:
(i) intends to cause annoyance or injury to any person or damage to any property, including the use of graffiti as defined in Section 76-6-107;
(ii) intends to commit any crime, other than theft or a felony; or
(iii) is reckless as to whether his presence will cause fear for the safety of another;
(b) knowing the person's entry or presence is unlawful, the person enters or remains on property as to which notice against entering is given by:
(i) personal communication to the actor by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
(ii) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders; or
(iii) posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders; or
(c) the person enters a condominium unit in violation of Subsection 57-8-7(7).
(3) (a) A violation of Subsection (2)(a) or (b) is a class B misdemeanor unless it was committed in a dwelling, in which event it is a class A misdemeanor.
(b) A violation of Subsection (2)(c) is an infraction.
(4) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(a) the property was open to the public when the actor entered or remained; and
(b) the actor's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property.

Amended by Chapter 334, 2010 General Session

I disagree that I have violated the forum rules on this. But, You have my "clarification" above!

In Minnesota, as in Alabama, simply carrying past a sign (and in MN there has to be a very specific sign) does not constitute a violation of the law.

That is incorrect. You may wish to actually read Alabama law before making statements about it.

Section 13A-7-4
Criminal trespass in the third degree.

(a) A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the third degree when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises.

As a matter of practicality, not as a matter of black-letter law, police will be reluctant to arrest for trespass simply because of a sign. However, knowingly ignoring the sign is still a crime. It is particularly foolish to advocate for such a crime and then commit it! That kinda obviates the need for someone to verbally remind the offender of the policy. If one states he is going to do it, and then does it, that qualifies for "knowingly."

And, frankly, I think that OCDO is getting a little loose about folks here advocating criminal activity on their board.

Finally, as I pointed out to the person advocating deliberately trespassing, his initial statements did not qualify that he was only advocating committing the crime in MN. It wasn't until he spoke of himself that he indicated that he would not be committing a crime, which, as I said is arguable, since his post demonstrates intent.

At the Dulles Expo center they zip tie them when you enter. Right when I leave I cut zip tie and reload. The range I go to the weapon has to be cleared prior to entering. When I asked why they said they had a guy trying holsters with it loaded so they started the policy.

I attended a local gun show under similar circumstances. I found I was able to move the ty-wrap around and fit my gun into the holster. I don't remember why I carried that gun in on that day. I think I came back the next day and tried to find a holster for my pocket gun, but wasn't able to find a match. Like so many others, I OC'd a rifle as well -- which was humorous in and of itself because it took two ty-wraps to secure, being bolt action. Oh, and we had to check our bullets... Nothing like digging through a box of envelopes trying to find YOUR bullets.

I'd reason so say that it was the safest place in the city to be at the time. I know once I stepped out the door, I had reloaded and re-armed. Because walking out the door, I asked the police officer to cut the ty-wrap off my guns. =)

Anyway, legal or not, just play the game. You don't want to be the ND or AD at the show, which is the reason for the rules. Many people are purchasing their first gun and don't have a level of familiarity with firearms to be safe -- and some are entirely too familiar and careless. Feel free to OC, but do respect the show operators. They like guns as much as you do. =)

(a) A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the third degree when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises.

It says enters or remains unlawfully. it does not say enters or remains in violation of rules/code of conduct.

I would read this to mean that if you "enter unlawfully" (for example you have been kicked out and told to not come back for a certain amount of time) you would be in violation, and if you " unlawfully remain" (are asked to leave and refuse) then you are also in violation.

I don't read it to mean that if you simply ignore a rule you are violating the law.

If you bring a candy bar into the movie house (ignoring the "No outside food or beverage sign" you are violating the rules, but would you be in violation of the trespassing statute?

A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

My point was that the person is going where he knows he is not welcome (possibly having, foolishly, even posted this intent on a message board), must have been sufficiently informed that he is not to be there (after all, he knows). That he is unwelcome and this lack of welcome has clearly successfully been communicated means that his presence is unlawful.

Would he be arrested? I don't know. But, that would be irrelevant. Not being arrested does not mean that nothing unlawful was done.

The point is that the poster is encouraging an activity which, in many jurisdictions in which the folks he is encouraging live, is against the law. The rules of this site rightly prohibit advocating breaking the law. Furthermore, I believe advocating breaking the law is despicable.

I have made my point (in the last paragraph), and continued discussion in the direction it is going is getting us away from and clouding that point.

My point was that the person is going where he knows he is not welcome (possibly having, foolishly, even posted this intent on a message board), must have been sufficiently informed that he is not to be there (after all, he knows). That he is unwelcome and this lack of welcome has clearly successfully been communicated means that his presence is unlawful.

Would he be arrested? I don't know. But, that would be irrelevant. Not being arrested does not mean that nothing unlawful was done.

The point is that the poster is encouraging an activity which, in many jurisdictions in which the folks he is encouraging live, is against the law. The rules of this site rightly prohibit advocating breaking the law. Furthermore, I believe advocating breaking the law is despicable.

I have made my point (in the last paragraph), and continued discussion in the direction it is going is getting us away from and clouding that point.

Therefore, moving on.

I agree. If you or your actions aren't welcome, don't go. Whether unlawful or simply unwanted, the person putting on the event has a right to regulate those who attend. I don't like disarming before going to a gun show here in COS, but it's their show and their rules. And I certainly wouldn't advocate anyone breaking a law for a specious "principle."

iN THE END

I decided not to go to the show mostly because of the neighborhood but I will say it was also the fact that they made the choice to force permit holders to disarm. I would not CC just for the fact that it IS breaking the law and that is not my thing.

I just could not bring myself to stand in the middle of an arsenal with a few hundred people I didn't know - unarmed.

- Knowledge is power and there IS strength in numbers -

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson

I'm sure you can carry to the door, unload, have them check/secure weapon, and go in and look around. When you exit the doors, load it. Thats what I do at our local gun shows. They got a guy that zip ties them. Or you can say you never saw the web site.

Same here, although they refused to allow me to carry in my holster, even with the bright yellow zip tie in plain sight. They wanted me to go get my "original box" from home just so I could carry my firearm into a gun show and find a holster.

Forget that!

The local gun stores allow me to open carry without restriction. If they didn't, they wouldn't get my business any more than the gun show (didn't) get my business.