Morgan wrote:Roundshot VR: the only figure I've found is 0.1 degree of precision.If I'm correct, there is a huge difference between those products regarding their movement precision, am I wrong or did I made any mistake?Morgan

this is addressable precision, not the precision of the mechanics.But anyway you will shoot with 25% overlap and there is no way you can stitch a pano without "optimizing" it in APG.Why would I want more addressable precision than 0.1 degree? I don't know.

leifs

Last edited by leifs on Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My second question is more generally speaking what do think guys if you had to compare both products?

Thanks a lot.

Morgan

I tested four heads: Merlin, Panoneed, VR2, Rodeon ST.

My clear favourite was the Rodeon.

I took the Panoneed - about half the price of the Rodeon ST, almost the same features (and some more) and stability. Does what itÂ´s designed for: shooting panoramas with high accuracy even with 600/800mm lenses in reasonable time in every situation.

But: if you are really interested you NEED to test such a head yourself under YOUR working-conditions. There are features you may like more or less - thatÂ´s individual.

best, Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I have not tested Panoneed or Rodeon ST.But I've used my VRdrive2 a lot since october 2011. Mostly outdoors under all weather conditions the year around in Norway. I can't tell anything about the other heads but I can report that the VRdrive2 does what I want and more. 20 below zero no problem.I have also tested the service of Seitz. The camera cable broke and I got a new one promptly. The memory had to be upgraded, I sent the head to Seitz and got it back ugraded in a short time. When you shell out this amount of money you expect premium service. Seitz has this kind of service

leifs

Last edited by leifs on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'd go for the Seitz as well, does what it's supposed but what I don't like about Seitz is that they sell their software bit by bit (or byte by byte) so to speak. I mean the code is not that complex (I know, I'm currently programming my own), unless the Seitz does take control of the shuttertime of the camera (for HDR) acting like a Promote Logic (that is a bit more complex). Now that would be not that handy for you Leif since the Oly has no way to control it other then trigger and focus AFAIK (done with two optocouplers of which you stricktly speaking only need ONE since who the hell uses autofocus when shooting pano, right).

By the way Leif, why did you need to upgrade your memory (or better that of the Seitz), I have 32.256 bytes to play with and I wonder whether I'll use all of them. Yes I can do all kind of spheres and Giga's, and all in HDR if needed, and storing a pattern (if needed for the Giga's) only takes a few bytes (since a pattern is a pattern, right which is defined by the pattern :-)).

Hi... I have owned my VR Drive II for about a year now.. I have never regretted buying it.. Its just awesome... Really well made and easy to program and use.. I LOVE IT... !!... The support from Seitz is world-Class.. I had heaps of very silly questions and I did some very strange things with my VR Drive when I was leaning how to use it but no question you ask Urs from Seitz is a silly question.. He is just the most awesome guy.. Really helpful.. 10/10 for everything..

Artisan S. wrote:By the way Leif, why did you need to upgrade your memory (or better that of the Seitz)Greets, Ed.

I had a VRdrive1 and was happy, but wanted to do spheres. So I bought the VRdrive2 early and Seitz underestimated the size of the firmware. So when firmware ver 2.0 came there was not room for it in the first made heads. The fix was to send it to Seitz for upgrading which I did.It was no cost for me except for the cost of sending it to Switzerland

leifs wrote:I had a VRdrive1 and was happy, but wanted to do spheres. So I bought the VRdrive2 early and Seitz underestimated the size of the firmware. So when firmware ver 2.0 came there was not room for it in the first made heads. The fix was to send it to Seitz for upgrading which I did.It was no cost for me except for the cost of sending it to Switzerland

Destiny wrote:I had heaps of very silly questions and I did some very strange things with my VR Drive when I was leaning how to use it

Destiny....

Hmzzzz, yeah, yeah, lucky me don't need an Urs, pittifull me don't have an Urs. If I screw up I can only call myself (and pommel myself around for a bit with the proverbial rotten trout since my customer department (me) has strict rules according to customer service(me)). But personally I was thinking of putting the contraption on a tripod and using it to create panoramas or VR spheres (or maybe put it on rails (also motorised) or use it as timelaps robot, using a hacked (sjjjjttttt!) GH2 (of course with different software (also made by me, but first things first)). Now maybe I could use is as an outboard motor or a powercrane......but I guess that would be silly would it .

But Des since my drive only comes with a single button (I get confused easily) doing strange things with it will be rather difficult in all cases.

Now, I want to know what you think about the MK PanoMachine 8.0. It seems to be not well considered by many of you but after I've read the characteristics, I think the product can be easily compared to Roundshot VR. So why when Marc from MK is proposing his device some of you reply nicely they prefer roundshot VR? I mean, with 50% off the price of a roundshot VR, it can be interesting to make the comparison...

Thanks in advance for your reply.

PS: I bought one unit and will receive it soon so I will tell you how is the product and its ability to do the job well.

Well.. I have never tested one out but they look very nice and from what i have read and been told by Marc of MK PANORAMA SYSTEME... I chatted with Marc a few times and he was very helpful.. There are a lot of smart guys associated with this pano head too.. I would love to test one out but... No where around here with one... I think to be honest, thats half the issue with all this stuff.. If I had a shop I would have a motorised pano head on continuous playing in the front window... I think in the most part with all this gear, its a matter of .. The normal guy on the street doesn't know about this technology... Even the main camera mob near me where I bought my D90, D800 and lenses from.. have no idea.. NO IDEA!!..

We are thinking about having a shop but ... its stocking it.. what we want to be are Camera gear specialist.. Here in Auz... Nothing like it.. It would be great to go in and check it out first hand to make a real judgment call...

As far as I can determine, there is nothing wrong with the MK PanoMachine 8.0.. There are a few reasons why I did not buy it but in saying that.. I would recommend it even though I have never used one..

The Rodeon is very very nice.. but expensive.. I love my VR Drive II so I would always recommend buying one..

As far as I am concerned.... There are only a few motorised pano heads I would personally recommend..

The RodeonThe VR Drive IIand the MK PanoMachine 8.0

I guess thats in order of pricing too and they ALL look great too.. Don't forget, Nodal Ninja are also developing a brand new motorised pano head.. Actually they have 3 of them on the go and even more than that.. Not sure when we will see one but I think before then end of the year.. What you need to consider is customer support and a proven track recored of this.. All three of these companies as well as Nodal Ninja have world-class customer service..

I always forget you are in the same part of the world than me (I'm in Hong Kong) :-)Thanks for your comment.

Actually I'm doing 360 pictures and videos, times lapses and aerial photography for a while now, and not just for fun but for a company I've created with many photographers and videographers. So my concerns and choice are based not only for make me happy to own a Ferrari or Bentley device but for the trade off to find a good product, professional and especially efficient and compatible with the business model.That being said, I can tell with respect most of the contributors of this forum are doing panorama for fun, which is good, but their consideration for the hardware and budget are not the same than for a company who needs to be profitable and efficient every day. It's just a fact and assumption of our discussion and, of course, we don't compare those 2 different category of end users.To be clear, my photographers have to be able to shoot 8 to 12 virtual tours (roughly 4 rooms per flat, or restaurants, clubs, hotel, commercial venues, etc...). So it means the efficiency of the shooting time is crucial. For this kind of shooting we still aim for a correct quality, I mean it will not be gigapixel panorama but it will be well done. we are shooting always full sphere but even we can clean the nadir we keep it for put our logo :-)The shooting is an important part of the job but it's also the part of the job which will define the speed and quality of the stitching, so better to get a device that will be accurate and reliable as well.

So, now we have the choice between Roundshot VR2, Rodeon ST, Panoneed, MK PanoMachine 8.0., I put on the side intentionally the LyzardQ and other super super expensive device which are really dedicated for special jobs.

If we sort by price, only panoneed and MK PanoMachine are competitive. Of course we need to compare apple to apple but it's not so easy.Panoneed is bulky and heavy so it fit more with gigapixel panorama I guess.MK PanoMachine seems to be a good trade of for affordable machine and good quality of hardware and features.

Roundshot is quite more expensive for the same features than the 2 cheapest one, and finally Rodeon is closing the panel with a more expensive and not super friendly add-on device for control the device (either dedicated smartphone or laptop).

So after different tests for all those heads (except the PanoMachine I will receive in few days) I think the PanoMachine 8.0 seems to be a not too bad choice.

If it is fast VR spheres you want Morgan, let me give you a piece of sound advice. Do not use a motorised mount at all. Just use a small and relatively cheap mechanical head (does not matter which one, since even a lowly Panosaurus 2.0 will do the trick). Set the camera on HDR if you need to and use Bulb mode on the remote to do the shooting. Without HDR with a Panosaurus I can do a full 360/180 sphere in under 7 seconds. Want prove?

Try this with a Rodeon (maybe in speedmode it could sort of do it) or VR Drive or Panoneed or any motorised head:

Reminder: this is not posed so people are moving all around during my shots.

Head on tripod, camera on head, place, balance, shoot, turn (repeat 6 times), drop vertical, shoot Zenith.....NEXT. Now this may not look WOW, but it sure goes like STONK. In total a 70 Mpixel sphere (with a 16 Mpixel camera a D800 would get about 150 (right Des?). More then big enough for architecture, where downloadtimes need to be short and serverspace usaually is at a premium.

Now you could invest in motorised mounts of course. But remember, profit = money earned - money invested. A Panosaurus will set you back 100 dollars (American made). A Seitz will look cool but it will set you back around 3400 dollars at least a Rodeon will be more expensive. Now when do you profit from these machines. If you like for instance Klaus Esser create high def tours for museums and public institutions.

The accuracy and quality of the stitching are governed not by the precision of the head, but solely by the precision of the placing in relation to the NPP (No Parralax Point) of the camera on the crossbeam. A 1.000.000 dollar head that is precise up to 1/1.000.000 of a degree is useless if the camera is placed .5 mm short of it's NPP, however a 100 dollar head will perform brilliantly if the camera is so that the NPP is exactly in the middle of the sphere. Got that?

Morgan, you sound like you are a little short on experience here, but for people like you I would suggest the following combination:

1) Camera should be the best in the business and the best in the business is undoubtetly a Phase one connected to a IQ180 back.2) Head should be the best in business and the best in the business is a Clauss no doubt about it, build like a tank and in speedmode blistering fast because is uses it outstanding stability to shoot while moving......great stuff

That will impress every client of yours....but take care of the NPP my boy since even if you have all that #### THAT IS WHAT GOVERNS the quality of your endproduct even a IQ180 can't beat physics (nor can a deep wallet as some people seam to think).

Sounds like you are very busy... good on you for finding a market.. Perhaps what we need is your selling skills.. Our dream is to create a Truly Virtual Tour Shop with all kinds of interactive media content.. For gigapixel panos, it all comes down to the lens too.. but with the lens comes big files sizes so therefore big computer power to coup with it all.. Our VR Drive has HDR, Speed and other software... Seitz was really good to me.. Urs gave me some super upgrades and cables for free for my birthday last year.. He is a really really lovely man.. For me, I will always put VR Drive II at the top of my list since its just so awesome.. The motors sound so solid and strong.. We bought a 35 mm to create high rez panos but sadly our poor old iMac finds it hard to deal with the images.. We are in serious need of a Mac Pro.. I will try again using a different shooting setting, and that is a great thing about the VR DRive, the screen is big so you can see you programs easy to edit them.. Its all stored on a usb drive too.. With the shooting of the gigapixel, PTP has special software to deal with the XML code to assist with stitching of none featured shots like ceilings, bare walls or sky.. Not sure if the MK PanoMachine can do all that.. There is no feature on APG for it.. If you need even higher rez then go with the prime 85mm if you have a computer to deal with it all.. but I guess you know all that.. My husband and I are just teachers who really really want to move on.. but.. we have to do it when the time is right..

Now that PTP V2 is about to be released, many of the things I want to co can now be done.. One great feature of PTP V2, is viewing a Tour on Android.. Its just amazing.. PTP V2 is going to we a world changer for many in the way they make their Virtual Tours.. For someone like you, who have a great business using Kolor software you will be a winner.. When the times comes.. just let me know and I will provide some easy steps to get going..

But for your information, I'm not new in this domain (I made my first panorama in 2005 with a very old manual Manfrotto 360 head) and my company is shooting everyday around 10 to 30 virtual tour with motorized head. And when I talk about panorama, I'm talking about picture, but also 360 videos and aerial panoramas made from drones. That being said, it doesn't make me an expert and all the advices are really always welcome, hence my post :-)

We tried almost everything in the market (except the Panoneed and some other special devices) but it's always really good to get feedback from experts like you and I thank you sincerely for your information which is really useful for me.

My concern, and Destiny is surely on this way as well, is to be honest and talk about device really tested by you. If your reply is based on this real experience that's great, but if it's based on the "I heard from my friend who heard from his friend..." it becomes suddenly more shallow if I may tell you that.

Sure the NPP is crucial and one of the most important parameter to shoot a nice panorama, you are totally right.

Regarding the price, when you shoot 10 to 30 virtual tour per day, and when you have to manage a bunch of photographers and graphic designers, your calculation (even though is correct) has to be put in regards of the monthly volume of shoot and not just for one shoot of course. What I mean is my concern regarding the investment is to be sure this reliable fast device will be use easily by an non expert photographer to make a shoot that will be stitch well and really fast every time.

Your panorama is really well done, but how long time did you take to make the stitching and with which software? In my company, when the pictures are given to one of my coworker in charge of the virtual tour design, it has to be stitched in less than 30min (for a flat of 4 rooms for example). So usually we increased a little bit the overlapping of the pictures to ensure good and fast stitching.

Now about the speed, the Roundshot is also pretty fast in speed mode and I will tell you soon if the MK PanoMachine 8.0 worse the price for that as well. But speed means to use fast speed for the camera, and indoor, using 1/1000 or 1/2000 with low ISO is not always easy. Anyway, one more time. my concern is to industrialize the process as much as we can but to keep a good quality. That's not the Holy Grall, we just optimize our activity.

Regarding your proposal (both, not motorized head and the nice middle format) I think both are too far from my needs. Manual head is fun, lightweight but it's a little bit risky and in addition, when you shoot indoor with large monochrome walls, if you don't have a xml file to help a little the stitching software I wish you good luck to be efficient. For the middle format, why not proposing me the rounshot Seitz 6x17, 160Mpixels per shoot, etc... or the LizardQ at 30000 euros :-)

Anyway, I sincerely appreciate your reply as it's really useful and welcome for me to receive advice and experience.

I don't know about Morgan but I can say he's in dire straigts if he thinks a MK Panomachine 8.0 is going to be the thing he needs for efficient high quality VR shooting. Like you were by the way when you thought and hoped the Seitz was going to give you the so much desired business. In fact you have more skills the he does (since if he had he would know that the head is not governing the quality of the stitching). Skill can't be replaced by technology. Now he reads about the 4 second 360 degrees panorama of the MK Panomachine and does the multiplication. 4 shots per apartment = 4 x 4 = 16 seconds in a out. But he forgets that you also have to check a lot of other things. Like for instance the optimal shuttertimes. HDR or not to HDR. The placing of the camera in relation to walls, furniture etc. Things like DOF in relation to the nearest and farthest object and lens to use in relation to camera (FF or smaller which gives you better (in fact 2x as much at the same aperture) DOF of course, which is why me en Leif use micro4/3), manual focus, manual shuttertime (go for the light or aim at the shadows). The make-up of the room (housedressing is a craft of it's own these days).

Well Ed.. I am sure Morgan is smart enough to realise what he needs to produce great panoramic photography.. To be honest, it wasn't just me who wanted our VR Drive.. My husband really wanted it too.. and my old gran who has been doing photography for many years also wanted me to have it.. emm.. I am still paying her for it.. I might be 60 by the time its all paid for.. along with my D800 and 14-24.... Its lovely to have a rich granny... There is no doubt that the VR Drive is quick and accurate. Even though I love my NN4, I love using my VR Drive better. I reckon have two.. One going in one room and then set up another in another room.. hehe..

Actually, I'm professional in IT and computer graphics for more than 25 years and as I'm based in HK, I can realize nice business regarding the 360 pictures and/or videos from ground or the air.I found a strategy to sell virtual tour with a correct success because I go far away from the super world record of the (nice) gigapixel panoramas, which are pretty cool, but just for happy few passionate. Missis or Mister everyone is interested to convert this technology in something usable and useful.

I expand my company all over asia pacific, may be we can exchange how to come in NZ with your and your Husband help...;-)

One more time, thanks a lot for your advices, they are really welcome.

>if you don't have a xml file to help a little the stitching software I wish you good luck to be efficient<

I could not agree with you more (therefore my manual head produces .XML files), since I shoot in a regular pattern anyway governed by my knowledge and skill that is put in a fake Papywizard .XML, and yes I'm an ex-ICT boef as well until that started to bore me and became more and more pointless.

Everywhere there are boring and annoying people. I'm sorry if I'm one of them for you now, it wasn't my intention.

Now, just for close this conversation, I would like to say you should read slower and not accurately my post as I always said I want to know from you guys. You should also pay attention when I wrote I didn't get MK PanoMachine yet, hence my question to get your feed back and experience regarding this possible good motorized head.Last but not least, please, where did you see I want to use the 6 seconds/360 for make our virtual tour??? I'm not an expert like you but based on our daily shoot and experience, I know this features can be used may be 1/10000 times as it brings lot's of requirements which are not really compatible with our current business.

By the way, you think I'm boring (sorry for that) but you didn't reply to me regarding your stitching time for your nice panorama...

Artisan, no one force you to reply to me. If you consider I need to read your reply with no right to say anything to you, better to avoid the forums, you know, the place where all the people are welcome to question and answer with respect and politeness...

No, it's still in development but we are trying to create a template of an existing xml file to help us to do so. In addition, if the device is really good, we are planning to buy more units hence may be some co-development between them and us to provide a xml file from the control unit soon...

Morgan wrote:No, it's still in development but we are trying to create a template of an existing xml file to help us to do so. In addition, if the device is really good, we are planning to buy more units hence may be some co-development between them and us to provide a xml file from the control unit soon...

Sincerely.

Morgan

Excuse me is that all the creativity you can come up with after a 25 year carreer in ICT?

If you shoot a FE sphere (and you are right about your business model, small spheres sell better then large once but pay less) you are shooting in a fixed pattern right (I used Klaus Esser's sound advice -5 at 60 x 6 + 90) which works even with a manual head. Now an .XML is simply generated by Papywizard according to the Papywizard preset file this is a preset for that:

The preset file is a large file found in the Papywizard common directory on the C:/program files (x86)/Papywizard directory (if you use a windows machine). You can just add a preset by editing the preset file by cut and paste (you can do that right ).

Now you have the option to run (after connect to hardware even without hardware works and in plugin yaw pitch and shutter should be set on simulation) and Papywizard using the preset.....and it will produce a beautiful .XML you can import with you're pictures into Autopano Pro. Just program you're head to follow suite and it will be plain sailing. Now you ask "but I need 3, 5, 7, and 9 shot HDR"? Goto tab Plugins in configuration and set shutter to 3 and create appropriate .XML (P.S. rename and save the 1 shot file first), then do the same for 5,7 and 9. But I would not use this (since Photomatix is far better in HDR then Autopano Pro). As I demonstrated I can get this to work with a cheap Panosaurus 2.0 head and some oldfashioned German discipline, so with a much more precise MK 8.0 this should be super plain sailing.