Monday, February 18, 2013

Sad to report, but Ergun Caner has returned to prominence within the Southern Baptist Convention, as Caner was granted the privilege on February 17th to preach once again in Jacksonville, in the same pulpit where Caner began his well-chronicled "decade of deceit" in 2001. At left he is grinning from ear-to-ear as he is being introduced to the congregation just before he preaches.

For a prominent SBC church and pastor to once again feature Ergun Caner - the evangelical version of Lance Armstrong - in a pulpit to preach to the youth choir and congregation is nothing short of a tragedy, and it is just an example of the sorry state of the Southern Baptist Convention.

that he was a trained terrorist, "trained to do that which was done on 11 September";

that he wore full Islamic gear to high school, praying to Mecca;

that he was called a "sand monkey" and ridiculed for being a devout Muslim;

said "Jesus strapped a cross on his back so I wouldn't have to strap a bomb on my back";

that he knew how to speak Arabic, even using a phony dialect in his sermon.

The only problem is; Caner never was raised in Europe or trained in terrorism. It was all made up. Caner and his family moved from Sweden to Columbus, Ohio at the age of 3. All of the above lies and deceits were spoken in that one single sermon to dupe the entire SBC, with former SBC-president Jerry Vines giving nods of approval while Caner spoke. Caner fooled the entire congregation, including myself and my family who were at the service. Caner and his brother Emir leveraged that one single sermon to launch them to become authors and seminary presidents and Christian speakers. The whole mess is what James White coined the "Great Evangelical Cover-Up".

Why rehash all of this? Because I want the record to be crystal-clear, no re-writing of history by the SBC'ers: it was in Jacksonville that Caner set the groundwork, established his phony-baloney storyline that he would follow for the next 9 years, until he was finally exposed by bloggers - including this blogger - and Christian apologist James White. Caner's fibs even went so far as to lead him to lie to our military troops during 2005 training sessions in which Caner posed as an expert in Turkish culture - preparing our troops to engage the enemy's culture. Can you believe it? It is true - Caner put our fighting men and women at risk by posing as someone he wasn't, as an expert in something he at best had only read about.
So here Caner is back in the SBC - all is forgiven apparently, and he never has publicly apologized for his decade of deceit, or for the way his defenders attacked James White and others who tried to get Caner to come clean - sounds like Lance Armstrong, doesn't it? Caner's friends and defenders will tell you he has apologized for making a few misstatements of fact over 10 years. But it is just not so. In fact, after Caner was removed as president of Liberty University's seminary president in 2010, at one of his first public speaking engagements at a Bristol, VA prayer breakfast he said his troubles were due to "bloggers" and said they were just "frustrated people in their basement". He also said "it will take more than edited videos to take me down."

And to make matters worse, if they could be worse, the media outlets for the Southern Baptists and Florida Baptists never, ever had reported on the Caner scandal. Why? Because prominent SBC leaders who have authored books with Caner and have been involved in promoting Caner after 9/11, would be too embarrassed. Too much potential damage, so the Baptist Press and Florida Baptist Witness - who purport themselves to be Christian news organizations - pretend Caner's decade of deceit never happened. And now that Caner is back in a prominent SBC pulpit, Joni Hannigan, one of the editors of the Florida Baptist Witness, tweeted last night during the Caner sermon: "So blessed to hear my friend @erguncaner preach tonight...", and she tweeted photos of her beloved Christian hero, Ergun Caner.

In Caner's sermon last night, he asked an excellent question: after citing statistics that we have about 75,000 Baptist churches in America, with 55 million people claiming to be "born again Christians", Caner asked the following:

"...don't you reckon we [the church] would be further along? Don't you think we'd have a bigger impact on our culture?...We spend 8 billion dollars on church growth resources in America every year. What are we missing? We've got all the new programs, we've got more churches, with more land, more money, more members than in our history, so why aren't we seeing revival?"

Great question, Ergun. The answer to Caner's question, in part, is staring right back at Caner in the mirror. It is Caner himself, and those who have defended him and who continue to promote him, that are partly responsible for the ineffectiveness of the Southern Baptist Convention to gain new converts, and their failure to keep the young ones raised in SBC churches. Young people are growing up and seeing that their most prominent pastors and preachers have lied to them for personal promotion and financial gain, and the lies were mostly ignored and never dealt with openly. All of this causes people - especially young people who are prone to doubt during the early years of their faith journey - to question the entire validity of the Christian message.

You, Ergun, are the man. How ironic is it that one of the many books Caner has coauthored is entitled "Why Churches Die - Lethal Poisons in the Body of Christ" - when Caner himself, and those who promote him, are part of the lethal concoction infecting the Southern Baptist Convention today.

Thank goodness most professional groups or societies in our culture deal harshly and swiftly with known liars within their own ranks. They know the effectiveness of their cause and the validity of their message can go down the tubes in a heartbeat with one prominent phony left unchecked. Unfortunately, Baptists haven't figured this out, and I don't think they ever will. As their numbers decline and their churches die and get snatched up by larger churches, they'll just complain that we are a "post Christian nation" and blame it all on the devil - and of course the Calvinists. And the bloggers.

I remember my former pastor Jerry Vines saying many times that Christianity is a faith that can stand up to the test of intellectual debate and inspection. He would say that a person doesn't need to check their brains at the church door to become a Christian.

Unfortunately with an unrepentant Caner still roaming SBC churches, being promoted by prominent SBC preachers, I'm not sure that is true anymore.

53 comments:

Anonymous
said...

Many evangelical leaders are coming to Dr. Caner's defense:

“I know Dr. Caner and have done a number of apologetics conferences with him, and have witnessed God using Ergun in a powerful way. He has always spoken words of grace to others, and I thus find it disturbing that some have chosen to show NO grace to Ergun in the midst of his current trial. If God only used perfect vessels, who among us would be qualified? I know of none. I urge all those who respect my work to take the word of someone who knows Ergun personally (me): He is a good man with a heart for God.” ---Dr. Ron Rhodes, author and President of Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries

Rhodes maintains that these statements are not Ergun claiming his father was polygamous.

March 2003"My mother found out late in her marriage that my father was married to more than one woman. I don’t want anyone else to deal with this."

April 2005My father had more than one wife at a time. As you know the Quran says in Surah four that you are allowed up to four wives. My father had three.

April 2005"We got stopped at the border, because my father had listed my mother as property. It’s true. And the guy said, 'Your wife’s not property.' And he said, 'of course she is.' Then he brought his 'sisters' which is his other wives that’s how we bring in our other wives to America. We call them our 'sisters'".

June 2005"I came over during the Iranian crisis. Ayatollah Khomeini had taken control. The Shaw of Iran had been kicked out. And Ayatollah Khomeini said this, 'We will not stop until America is an Islamic nation.' So in 1978, my father, my mother, my two brothers, my father’s other wives, and my half-brothers and sisters came to this country. How is it that Muslims can come to this country with other wives? Well it is called the Abraham lie. 'This is my sister.' It explains our last names being the same. And so he would say, 'This is my sisters.'"

September 2006"I was the oldest. My father brought his wives with him. Yes, polygamous Muslims do come to America. We call it the Abraham lie. They say, 'This is my wife, and this is my sister.'"

June 2007"We got stopped coming to America, I can’t believe I’m telling you this, but I’m gonna. We got stopped coming to America in 1978. My father listed my mother as property on the manifest. Acar Mehmet Caner listed Monica Inez Caner, my mom, as property. And by the way, he came to America like many Muslims do with many wives, but polygamy is not allowed. It’s called the Abraham lie. Who knows what I’m talking about? This is my sister, that’s right. So my father had, he said, ‘This is my wife, Halah, and these are my sisters. It explains the last name."

It is laughable that Rhodes considers it truth that none of these statements are Ergun claiming that his father was polygamous.

“I know Dr. Caner and have done a number of apologetics conferences with him, and have witnessed God using Ergun in a powerful way. He has always spoken words of grace to others, and I thus find it disturbing that some have chosen to show NO grace to Ergun in the midst of his current trial. If God only used perfect vessels, who among us would be qualified? I know of none. I urge all those who respect my work to take the word of someone who knows Ergun personally (me): He is a good man with a heart for God.” ---Dr. Ron Rhodes, author and President of Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries

Dr. Rhodes trusts him...who do you think you are?

February 18, 2013 at 11:45 AM

Once again, it is all about the money. Can Caner lovers find someone who defends him who is not tied to him financially in one way or another

“Kregel Publications has concluded that the Kregel titles by Dr. Caner are trustworthy, factually accurate, and helpful to both Christians and seekers wanting to know more about Islamic beliefs and how those beliefs compare and contrast with biblical Christianity.” ---Kregel Release July 6, 2010

“[TV host] John F. Ankerberg, who interviewed Caner for more than a dozen television programs, has posted on his website that he is disheartened by the attacks upon his friend’s integrity and character. Ankerberg said he believes Caner’s testimony is ‘completely true.’” ---Christianity Today, posted 7/02/2010

“ In a day of negativism and bad news, I am rejoicing today over many things. I rejoice over faithful witnesses of Jesus in a small Ohio Baptist church that loved two Moslem boys to Christ and then encouraged them to live for Jesus. I am grateful to God for the many people that have come to Christ through the witness of those two men. I continually thank God for His unbelievable plan to use sinners and mistake-prone men like the Caners, and even more amazing, people like me, to accomplish some things of great value in His kingdom business. Only eternity will reveal the good that two former Moslems have done. I thank God for them both.”--- Paige Pattersonn, president of Southwestern Baptist Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas

“Kregel Publications has concluded that the Kregel titles by Dr. Caner are trustworthy, factually accurate, and helpful to both Christians and seekers wanting to know more about Islamic beliefs and how those beliefs compare and contrast with biblical Christianity.” ---Kregel Release July 6, 2010

“[TV host] John F. Ankerberg, who interviewed Caner for more than a dozen television programs, has posted on his website that he is disheartened by the attacks upon his friend’s integrity and character. Ankerberg said he believes Caner’s testimony is ‘completely true.’” ---Christianity Today, posted 7/02/2010

“ In a day of negativism and bad news, I am rejoicing today over many things. I rejoice over faithful witnesses of Jesus in a small Ohio Baptist church that loved two Moslem boys to Christ and then encouraged them to live for Jesus. I am grateful to God for the many people that have come to Christ through the witness of those two men. I continually thank God for His unbelievable plan to use sinners and mistake-prone men like the Caners, and even more amazing, people like me, to accomplish some things of great value in His kingdom business. Only eternity will reveal the good that two former Moslems have done. I thank God for them both.”--- Paige Pattersonn, president of Southwestern Baptist Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas

February 18, 2013 at 7:24 PM"

Once again - follow the money and you see why he gets all the support he does.

He gets proven guilty and the book sales, speaking engagements and student rosters fall

The challenge still stands - find a big name supporter who backs him the way the others do WITHOUT financial ties or other personal gain

Dog, I think your comparison to Lance Armstrong is unfair to Lance. Lance started and funded a great foundation that is helping a lot of people defeat their cancer and live, giving them the opportunity to find God. So while he lied, it did not destroy anyone's faith.OTOH, Ergun is nothing but a liar that, when found out, will have teased some into faith who will then reject him and the faith as well. The issue is the victim of the fraud and what effect it will have on them.

You, Ergun, are the man. How ironic is it that one of the many books Caner has coauthored is entitled "Why Churches Die - Lethal Poisons in the Body of Christ" - when Caner himself, and those who promote him, are part of the lethal concoction infecting the Southern Baptist Convention today.

Spot on, WD. It is truly ironic that the authors of "Why Churches Die - Lethal Poisons in the Body of Christ" are themselves the poisons that are infecting. Including ALL the elites and honchos who are promoting the authors, for it reveals THEM, and they do not see it.

"I knew nothing about America until I came here when I was fourteen years old. Everything I knew about American culture, I learned through American television. Whatever they allowed into the Turkish region so that they could broadcast for free and so for me America was anything I saw on television that came from American television that was allowed by the censors."

Does not mean Ergun knew nothing about America until he came here when he was fourteen old.

Do you know who else has overwhelming support? Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, Pat Robertson and a certain recently elected President.

First, Ergun has readily admitted the mistakes he has made and has apologized for them publically. In February, 2010, he said in part on his Web site that he “never intentionally misled anyone…. For those times where I misspoke, said it wrong, scrambled words, or was just outright confusing, I apologize and will strive to do better.” Even the public statement made by Liberty University on June 29, 2010 made this clear when it said, “Dr. Caner has cooperated with the Board committee and has apologized for the discrepancies and misstatements that led to this review.”

Second, by comparison, his critics have not apologized for anything they have done, even though they have wrongly: a) assumed Ergun’s guilt without proof, b) impugned his intentions, and c) assassinated his character. This is to say nothing of the pain, misery, and agony they have afflicted on Ergun, his family, and the problems this has caused at Liberty University. For this they owe Dr. Caner a clear and contrite public apology.

Finally, his critics have not followed the instructions of Matthew 18 by going first to their brother and then to his church privately on these allegations. Rather, they have practiced unbiblical gossip in passing on defaming charges about another brother in Christ to others—indeed, making these charges public.

My experience with Ergun, as that of those who know him well, is that he is a devout zealous believer who lives a life in obedience to Christ and who works diligently to extend his kingdom. It is a crying shame that other believers have jumped on a band-wagon which is discrediting this sincere, earnest, and faithful follower of Christ.

Our SBC church has an annual Men's conference which I have attended for six years. I will not attend this year because Marine Tim Lee is one of the speakers. This man is one of Ergun Caner's defenders. It is simply intellectually dishonest to claim he did not lie.

These Ergun Caner stories remind me of the Seventies and early eighties when churches were all gaga over tales of Satan worship and human sacrifice. Books were sold, videos were sold, people gave personal testimonies like, “my baby was burned alive and even though he has thrown into the fire he never made a sound.” Stuff like that.

Interesting that we never hear these stories anymore, why; because it was all a lie. Never in any of the investigations were any of the claims found to be true. Worse, the Satan worshippers were laughing at us the whole time calling us stupid and gullible.

History repeats itself. Now comes Ergun Caner doing the same thing and guess what true Muslims are laughing at us and calling us stupid and gullible.

I don't have a way of knowing about your ministry outside of this blog, but I wonder how many people you have actually personally led to Christ. In the time you use blogging about Ergun Caner, reading and responding to people's comments about your blogs about Caner, and looking for more dirt on Ergun Caner, you could probably find something productive to do for God's Kingdom. This isn't productive. Ergun Caner is out doing ministry now....and yes, it is ministry. Who are you to judge if the lives being changed by his message are not real converts just because you think he is a liar. Most people who read your blog see it as a pathetic waste of time. Russell

"Even the public statement made by Liberty University on June 29, 2010 made this clear when it said, “Dr. Caner has cooperated with the Board committee and has apologized for the discrepancies and misstatements that led to this review.”

My husband was attending Liberty during this time. Caner was one of the more interesting professors to listen to. Unfortunately, after this happened you had to second guess everything he said. In one class about church history he asserts that Virginia was named after the Virgin Mary. Anyone who is familiar with history knows this to be a false statement. Not a life-altering "misstatement" but nevertheless untrue. And why? That was our question all along. Why lie? The Christian community was eating up his testimony like it was the 67th book of the Bible without all of the embellishments...so why lie?

Yes, there is repentance and forgiveness in the church. However, Ergun Caner should have lost all privileges to stand behind a pulpit and preach to anyone. While you should always study the word of God on your own and not just believe it because the pastor said it...you should at least be confident that the person behind the pulpit is not intentionally misleading you.

Anyone ever had the bright idea of trying to email Caner directly? I tried because I thought that all the allegations couldn't possibly be true. I get the most friendly guy on the planet, until I mention that I think that he should repent of the things I thought legitimate. Then he blew up at me about it and ended the conversation. That showed me what was what in this matter. I may not agree with the Watchdog on everything (I think that some things he goes after are more than a little nit-picky) but I certainly do on this matter. And it makes me look at everything the people connected to Ergun Caner say in a different light.

Grace? This guy has made money and a career off lying about and badmouthing Islam and Muslims. If someone did it about Christianity all Christians would be up in arms. But, since Christians have an anti-Islam agenda, Caner feeds right into it and Christians love it. What this guy has done is destroy any credibility Christianity in America may have had left. Then, I shouldn't be surprised. Greg Laurie and Chuck Smith were students of Lonnie Frisbee, a self proclaimed evangelical preacher that claimed to be a prophet. Laurie and Smith are ashamed to mention this guy because it later came out that Frisbee was a known Homosexual who had a penchant for your guys in the Orange County red light district. American Christianity is a joke.

Man this couldn't have honestly been put better. Just hearing him in the pulpit makes me cringe and my church isn't affiliated with the SBC. He comes like every year to Alaska and everyone is fooled! I'm so glad God gives people like me and you the gift of discernment. We are not all robots :)

I took a class with Ergun Caner at Liberty. Thank God it was only one class. He is the worst professor, ever. Wrong history, cliche Bible use, and extremely asinine. I respect Liberty 100x more after they removed him. They took the allegations seriously. How do you "mistaken" that you came to America at 15 years old instead of 3? He is all talk. People literally just rolled their eyes at Caner (before this event) and were NOT surprised after it happened--well, I guess the ones who actually listened to what he was saying and not merely ENTERTAINED by his ostentatious personality. He should not speak publicly PERIOD. Is this all that Evangelical Christianity has to offer as leaders? Of the millions of professing SBC Christians - this is the best we got? Someone who felt NO SHAME or REMORSE for lying during his sermons for 10 years! That is every year he decided to continue the lies about his past, knowledge, language skills, etc. TEN YEARS. NO REMORSE. No admitting of his SIN despite the fact it is documented in writing, videos, my own ears!

Ergun Caner seems like someone that God gifted and intended to use in a significant way. He made of mess of it all by lying about his past to spice up his testimony.What he needs to do, and has not done, is totally confess it, apologize to the people he attacked and make restitution for the people he has hurt.After that, and only after that, there would be a door open for God to use him again in the future - as I hope would be the case.But as a SBC member, I am really disgusted with the white washing and cover-up on the part of our leaders. I know they like this guy, want to use his talents in ministry and outreach and want to put this embarassing mess behind them. But do it the biblical way not the Watergate way.

I listened to caner preach a number of times at our church. He changed his tune and his message as the expose unfolded. Some well respected members actually left our church because of the issue. Others spoke out a little. Our pastor had him as a mentor for his Doctor of Divinty dergree at Liberty U. I was dismayed when I enrolled in a class taught in the pastor's office and found them teaching from one of his books. I concluded at the time that our pastor was probably deceived by a false teacher. From his is last sermon I remember a lot of sarcasm focused on his students, family and southern culture and even his own physique. Not nearly as much to say about his upbringing as a moslem. He did witness about his conversion to Christianity in high school and his moslem father's rejection of him over the matter. This and other departures from the truth caused me to leave that church. Showmanship seems to have trumped the Gospel there. By the way there is a cross on the outside and none in the "sanctuary" there. Goodbye SBC

When a liar knowingly tells an outright lie to another person, it must automatically be true that the liar takes that person for a fool. If he continues lying to that person, come what may, for over a decade, he must take the person for an imbecile. A person who takes another person for an imbecile must also automatically disrespect that person. You cannot take someone for an imbecile and respect them at the same time. The two are mutually exclusive.

Since Christian doctrine strictly forbids "the bearing of false witness" (lying), "bearing false witness in the name of Jesus Christ" must also be disrespecting what he is meant to believe is holy scripture, the word of God.

Lying is a very slippery slope. It is born of human failings. It is a habit of the weak willed and the insecure. If he has been weak-willed and insecure enough to lie about the enormous thing that is meant to be at the very core of his existence, then we can only imagine what other large, medium and smaller lies and deceptions he may perpetrated in other areas of his private and public life. Imagine how many lies the man must have told in his life?

The only reason he can have for not admitting his deceptions and apologizing to everyone he has deceived, disrespected, used and taken for imbeciles, seeking their forgiveness, must be that his ego is more precious to him than even the combined value of those many thousands of people impacted by his lies. His ego must mean more to him than evangelism, than ministry, than training pastors, than saving souls, than Christianity, even (dare I say it) than Jesus Christ himself, if even his devotion to what he purports to have committed his life to, is not strong enough to overcome the urge to protect his own ego and seek redemption.

Even if he were to confess, apologize and seek forgiveness now, how could anyone unequivocally believe him to be being sincere about it, with the sheer volume and long history of self- serving insincerity and dishonesty that he has behind him?

Evangelism can only have validity if it is manifest that it is God who calls an evangelist into ministry. He has now demonstrated to the entire world, that it can sometimes take an entire decade to tell if an evangelist was called to ministry by God or whether the evangelist just woke up one day and decided to call and appoint himself to minister to others under nobody’s authority but his own.

His cannot possibly care whether any Muslims are saved (all he ever does is heap insult, hate-filled venom and more lies on them - including his father and his entire Turkish bloodline, by the way). Similarly he equally cannot care whether any evangelist he trained or any Christians he ministered to are saved. The only logical conclusion it's possible to draw is that he cannot even genuinely care whether he himself is saved. The importance of his ego and his bank account must far outweigh the significance to him of the saving of anybody's soul.

Do not worry about his defenders. Each and every time they defend him, they condemn themselves, because in doing so they unfortunately unknowingly confirm his assessment of them as imbeciles who are beneath his own capacity to respect.

Ergun's a fake ex-jihadi and he's a professional l;iar. Emir's a fake ex-Muslim and he also makes jis living by lying. Does anybody know what happened to the third brother, Erdem? Did the whole ex-Muslim, ex-jihadi, lying-for-a-living thing somehow pass him by?

Somewhere above we see the usual attack toward this article and its author (Watchdog).... that is, What good is Watchdog doing in revisiting this ugly matter? Surely, he's just wasting time, in his basement, and should be out there feeding the hungry, instead.

To such drivel I say two things--One, if truth (small 't')doesn't matter then Truth (big 'T') doesn't matter. And the Ergun Caner mess is all about truth. Two, Watchdog, in a sense, you are feeding the hungry. I know I am certainly starved to see truth win out against lies--or at least to see it push back against lies. And, make no mistake, Ergun Caner is a walking, talking lie.

For me, the most discouraging part of all of this has nothing to do with Ergun Caner directly (We'll always have Ergun Caner's among us.) The worst of it is to see supposedly respectable, high-profile people like Norman Geisler and Ankenberry promote bald wickedness. I'll never take another Geisler quote seriously. I'll never buy one his popular apologetic books. A quick look at his website, where he offer an enthusiastic and ridiculous defense and support of Caner is stunning. He has lost credibility.

Somewhere above we see the usual attack toward this article and its author (Watchdog).... that is, What good is Watchdog doing in revisiting this ugly matter? Surely, he's just wasting time, in his basement, and should be out there feeding the hungry, instead.

To such drivel I say two things--One, if truth (small 't')doesn't matter then Truth (big 'T') doesn't matter. And the Ergun Caner mess is all about truth. Two, Watchdog, in a sense, you are feeding the hungry. I know I am certainly starved to see truth win out against lies--or at least to see it push back against lies. And, make no mistake, Ergun Caner is a walking, talking lie.

For me, the most discouraging part of all of this has nothing to do with Ergun Caner directly (We'll always have Ergun Caner's among us.) The worst of it is to see supposedly respectable, high-profile people like Norman Geisler and Ankenberry promote bald wickedness. I'll never take another Geisler quote seriously. I'll never buy one his popular apologetic books. A quick look at his website, where he offer an enthusiastic and ridiculous defense and support of Caner is stunning. He has lost credibility.

I have only a few months ago become aware of the Caner saga. It's sad really. All Muslims I have shown the videos to find it utterly laughable that he claims to have been a Muslim. Even the most slack of Muslims are able to immediately recognize his utterings as total garbage. His Arabic and Islamic "murmurings" are such classic nonsense. They alone are evidence to show him up for being a fake Muslim. Perhaps some forms of Christianity need folks like him to keep "the fires burning".

I am a Muslim and I know of more "ex-Muslims turned Christians" doing the rounds on the Internet and Youtube. It's scary really. What is it that those Christians are trying to achieve? Surely they know that Muslims know who they really are??? Is it that Christianity in America has become so politicized that the end justifies the means? Is it so important to invent fiction and falseness about Islam and Muslims? Is it that they see no other way to "administer" to Muslims? Or, is it that they are creating a suitably funky narrative for their own flock? I ask those questions because I really am confused.

I have yet to see a single Muslim posing as an "ex-Christian" anywhere. I feel sad and not just for those Christians, but for all of us that some among us allow ourselves to be duped by such fakery.

Speaking of reaching out and having direct contact- When James White and Ergun & Emir Caner were scheduled for a debate on John 10- Calvinism, I contacted Emir Caner. I encouraged him/them to work out their differences for the debate (I was already lining up a convoy to go to Liberty for what I thought would be a healthy debate). My email was met with a very agitated response.. "People like you" were trying to tear them down. So I just let it be... but was floored that this was the response of a seminary president! I really doubt "reaching out" and trying some meaningful Matthew 18 would work. It only works where you can ultimately "take it to the church" where there is real accountability between members. My case for membership in the local church is another issue :)

About Me

We're small, insignificant, and harmless. But we have a loud, piercing bark that seems to annoy those in mega churches the most. Not Kool-Aid drinkers, only fresh, filtered water, please; with Grape or Cherry flavoring from Walmart. "Let him alone; God hath bidden him to speak:"