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Thread : Monk Fix (PEACH)
Started at May 8 '09 2:44am by snakeman830
Visit at http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=64436
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[Post 1]
Author : snakeman830
Date : May 8 '09 2:44am
Thread Title : Monk Fix (PEACH)
Due to the much larger number of changes than I first anticipated, I can no longer call this a "basic" fix.
Also, it was time to start fresh without the near-flame war in the original thread (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=61632).
Without further adu, here is the current fix.
Note: The only things I am recording here are the changes from the original Monk class. If something doesn't appear on this table, then it has either been left unchanged or removed. If it was removed, it is in the notes just below the table.
Level BAB Special
1 +1 Martial Arts, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist
2 +2 Improved Grapple
3 +3 Following Step
4 +4 Improved Disarm, Ki Strike (magic), Mettle
5 +5 Crippling Blow, Fast Healing
6 +6/+1 Combat Reflexes, Improved Technique
7 +7/+2 Deflect Arrows, Ki Strike (materials)
8 +8/+3 Improved Trip, Spring Attack
9 +9/+4 Improved Evasion, Extra Stunning
10 +10/+5 Ki Strike (alignments), Fast Healing
11 +11/+6/+1 Diamond Body, Greater Flurry
12 +12/+7/+2 Disrupting Blow (standard actions, move actions, full-round actions), Improved Technique
13 +13/+8/+3 Diamond Soul, Bounding Assault
14 +14/+9/+4 Staggering Blow, Extra Stunning
15 +15/+10/+5 Death Punch, Fast Healing
16 +16/+11/+6/+1 Ki Strike (ignore hardness, lethal damage)
17 +17/+12/+7/+2 Rapid Blitz
18 +18/+13/+8/+3 Disrupting Blow (swift actions, lose use), Improved Technique
19 +19/+14/+9/+4 Dazing Blow, Extra Stunning
20 +20/+15/+10/+5 Fast Healing, Disrupting Blow (two actions), Perfect Self
Removed: Wholeness of Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Abundant Step, Empty Body, multiclass/ex-Monk restrictions
In: Autohypnosis as a class skill
Stunning Fist, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz, and Extra Stunning are all bonus feats and replace the standard "bonus feats" class feature.
Martial Arts (Ex): Replaces and functions exactly like the printed Unarmed Strike ability, but a Monk uses training and placement of blows rather than brute strength to fight and may use their Dexterity score instead of their Strength on attack and damage rolls with Unarmed Strikes and special Monk weapons. They may also use their Dex Modifier instead of their Strength for Grapple and Trip checks. Also, an Unarmed Strike is considered to be a one-handed weapon for the purposes of bonus damage, tactical manuvers (such as disarm) and feats such as Power Attack. At 10th level, a Monk's Unarmed Strike is treated as a two-handed weapon for these purposes (adding 1-1/2* Dexterity modifier to damage, if the Monk chooses to use Dex instead of Str). Unarmed Strikes are still useable in a grapple, since they are natural weapons.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Works as written except the extra attacks are also granted on normal attack actions. In other words, whenever a Monk makes an attack with an Unarmed Strike or special Monk weapon, they may make the additional attacks granted by Flurry of Blows (if they do so, they also take any penalties that apply). Flurry of Blows cannot be used on an attck of opportunity.
Following Step (Ex): Whenever an opponent a Monk of at least 3rd level threatens takes a 5-foot step, the Monk may take a 5-foot step, even if they have already moved this round. This ability only functions when unencumbered and wearing no armor/shield
Ki Strike (Ex): At 4th level, a Monk striking unarmed overcomes Damage Reduction as though it were a magic weapon. At 7th level, these attacks are treated as every material for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction. At 10th level, these attacks are treated as every alignment for overcoming Damage Reduction. At 16th level, these attacks are treated as every alignment and material for dealing lethal damage to creatures with regeneration (for example, they would deal lethal damage to a Pit Fiend, but not a Troll). In addition, they ignore hardness of objects as though they were admantine.
Crippling Blow (Ex): At 5th level, a Monk can strike a foe's body in such a way as to hinder movement. Once per round per foe, a Monk can use this ability. They make a normal attack against the foe. If the attack misses or fails to deal damage, the attempt is ruined and cannot be used against that foe again this round If it deals damage, the foe must make a Reflex save (DC 10+ 1/2 Monk's level + Wisdom modifier). On a success, their speed is cut to 3/4 (round down) normal for 1 round. On a failure, it is cut to 1/2 normal (round down) for one round. Plants, Undead and Constructs are not immune to this ability, but Oozes and elementals are. Supernatural movement modes are not affected. This ability cannot be used on the same attack as Stunning Fist, Disrupting Blow, Staggering Blow, Death Punch, or Dazing Blow.
Fast Healing (Ex): A Monk's bodily control eventually manifests in accelerated healing. At 5th level, a Monk gains Fast Healing 1 while not rushed or threatened. At 10th level, the fast healing increases to 5 under the same conditions. At 15th level, the rate increases to 10, but it now applies at any time. At 20th level and every five levels thereafter, it increases by 5.
Improved Technique (Ex): At 6th level a Monk is treated as one size category larger for the purposes of Disarm, Grapple, Sunder, and Trip checks. At 12th level and every 6 levels thereafter, the Monk's effective size for these checks increases by an additional size category.
Diamond Body (Ex): works as written, but is Extraordinary instead of Supernatural.
Disrupting Blow (Ex): Upon reaching 12th level, a Monk can ruin a foe's attempts to do just about anything with a quick strike with an Unarmed Strike or a special Monk weapon. Once per round when an enemy that a Monk threatens performs a Move, Standard, or Full-round action, the Monk can attempt to disrupt it, using up one of their attacks of opportunity for the round. Make an attack roll against the acting foe. If it hits, this attack deals no damage (or any other effects that may be tied to a successful attack), but the opponent loses that action. If it was casting a spell or using another ability with limited uses, they do not lose the prepared spell, spell slot, or use of the ability. A Monk can only use this ability once in a round. Every three levels, they may attempt to disrupt an additional opponent (2 at level 15, 3 at 18, and so on), but they still can only disrupt 1 action per foe. At 18th level, a Monk can use this ability to disrupt Swift and Immediate actions and the disrupted action is lost as though it were used (an interrupted casting results in a lost spell slot, for example). At 20th level, three times per day, a Monk can disrupt a second action from an opponent as an immediate action without using up an Attack of Opportunity for the round. A staggered foe is considered to already have been interrupted with this ability.
Diamond Soul (Ex): The Monk gains spell resistance 15 + Monk level. In addition, the Monk can decide to let spells bypass her Spell Resistance. This is often to recieve beneficial spells without trouble.
Staggering Blow (Ex):At 15th level, a Monk can strike a foe's body in such a way as to limit their coordination. Once per round per foe, a Monk can use this ability. They make a normal attack against the foe. If the attack misses or fails to deal damage, the attempt is ruined and cannot be used against that foe again this round. If it deals damage, the foe must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt). On a success, the target is unaffected. On a failure, the target is staggered for 1 round. A creature immune to critical hits is immune to this ability. This ability cannot be used on the same attack as Stunning Fist, Crippling Blow, Disrupting Blow, Death Punch, or Dazing Blow.
Death Punch (Ex):As Quivering Palm, except that the ability is Extraordinary and can be used a number of times per day equal to Monk Level/4 (round down). The character can no longer wait before attempting to kill his foe. This ability can only be used once per round and cannot be used on the same attack as Stunning Fist, Crippling Blow, Staggering Blow, Disrupting Strike, or Dazing Blow. This ability replaces Quivering Palm.
Dazing Blow (Ex):At 19th level, a Monk can stirke a foe's body in such a way as to disorient them. Once per round per foe, a Monk can use this ability. They make a normal attack against the foe. If the attack misses or fails to deal damage, the attempt is ruined and cannot be used against that foe again this round. If it deals damage, the foe must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Monk's level + Wisdom modifieror be Dazed for 1 round. Oozes and Elementals are immune to this ability, This ability cannot be used on the same attack as Stunning Fist, Crippling Blow, Sickening Blow, Disrupting Blow, Death Punch, or Staggering Blow.
Perfect Self: As written, except it grants DR 15/ Epic.
Constructive criticism is welcomed. Examples to back up the criticism are more so.
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[Post 2]
Author : Paul_V
Date : May 10 '09 2:27am
Well, I'm not sure you'll find my post helpful, but I can tell you what my tackle on the Monk was, for a campaign I'm planning to run soon. Basically, I didn't follow the "mundane" path, I tried to make the Monk an assailant specialised in taking down foes that rely on magic. This stems from the fact that my campaign has a different magic system (Spell Points from UA), generic spells and where every person in the world is a Gestalt character with the unified Mage class, which makes magic extremely common.
As such, I made the following changes:
Monks do not get Purity of Body (is replaced by Mettle), Wholeness of Body (is replaced by lowering Ki Strike Lawful 3 levels and Ki Strike Adamantine 4 levels), Tongue of Sun and Moon (is replaced by Improved Mettle), and Empty Body (Is replaced by Stamina at level 16 and Improved Stamina at level 19). Diamond Body gives immunity to poisons and nonmagical diseases, remains at the same level. Unarmed Strike damage becomes a Flurry Bonus (Unarmed Strike still does 1d3 damage, but they gain the bonus on every attack they make during a Flurry). They get Stunning Fist at level 1, Improved Disarm at level 2, Improved Trip at level 3, Improve Grapple at level 4, Combat Reflexes at level 5, Deflect Arrows at level 6 and Snatch Arrows at level 7.
Mettle and Improve Mettle only affect spells that grant a Will Save. Improved Mettle: As Mettle, but even if you fail your save, you are only partially affected. Stamina: On a successful save against a spell that allows Fortitude half or Fortitude partial, you instead suffer no ill effects if you save. Improved Stamina: As Stamina, but even if you fail your save, you are still only partially affected by the spell.
I hope you find something of my list this useful, and I hope you don't mind if I borrow a thing or two from yours. ;)
I'll take a closer look at the build and make a formal critic later. So far, everything looks coherent and well thought-out, though I have no idea how you can justify certain abilities as Extraordinary, especially Quivering palm, Diamond Body and Diamond Soul (the latter is specially hard to believe, since one has to wonder what kind of mundane method gives resistance to magic...).
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[Post 3]
Author : snakeman830
Date : May 10 '09 2:41am
I'll take a closer look at the build and make a formal critic later. So far, everything looks coherent and well thought-out, though I have no idea how you can justify certain abilities as Extraordinary, especially Quivering palm, Diamond Body and Diamond Soul (the latter is specially hard to believe, since one has to wonder what kind of mundane method gives resistance to magic...).
Quivering Palm: There are spots on the human body where a single blow will kill. I don't know any player that would actually keep the guy they just QP'd alive for a bit before willing him to die later.
Diamond Body: This ability can partially be replicated with a good Autohypnosis check. No reason for it to be supernatural (especially as some races get immunity to poison).
Diamond Soul: Point out to me inherent spell reisistance that isn't extraordinary and I'll give you this one (doesn't mean I'll change it)
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[Post 4]
Author : Paul_V
Date : May 10 '09 3:36am
Warning: I am not familiar with ToB. If ToB has manouvers that already do some of this, then I am unaware of that. I am simply comparing the Monk to the rest of the Core classes and rules.
Alright, let's see. From the top:
Martial Arts: Weapon Finesse on steroids. Fits the theme.
Flurry of Blows: I'm not sure I follow, but how is this different from the regular Flurry of Blows? Are you saying it can also apply to attacks during a grapple? Or that a Monk may take a Move Action AND attack with a Flurry of Blows? Because if it's the latter, not only is it overpowered, it goes against the Full Attack rule (since Flurry of Blows is supposed to be a Full Attack, which is a Full Round action)
Following Step: I'd personally rule that if the Monk uses this ability, then he cannot take a 5-foot step on the following round, but that's just a personal preference to prevent abuse.
Ki Strike: I think that it's all good except for the part that it affects Monk weapons too. You're basically making materials useless, as you get the DR-bypassing of Silver without the damage penalty, the Cold Iron/Adamantine/etc without the added cost, etc. If it only affected Unarmed Strikes, it'd be good. I understand that you want to make the Monk worthwhile, but this is a bit extreme. If every other class has to pay the price to have its weapon made of a certain material (not only GP price, but some materials have drawbacks as well), then I don't see why the Monk is exempt from this. Also, I have no idea how you can justify having a class ability that makes your hands magical as an Extraordinary ability. Not to mention that it transmutes materials, and duplicates the effects of Align Weapon. Also, why should the Monk get Align Weapon at will? Or an at will version of Silversheen and every other material-altering spell/item/oil ever invented? Or even a free way of bypassing any and all DR for free, which affects any Monk weapon he wields on top of his Unarmed Strikes? This alone should reduce most encounters (especially low-to-mid level ones) to a walk in the park.
Crippling Strike: For an attack that, as long as it hits, it will hamper an enemy no matter if it saves or not, it should have a limited daily use. If it counted as a use of Stunning Fist, I think it'd be more balanced.
Fast Healing: Quick math: Assuming a Constitution of 20 (obtained via magical means, most likely, and not even trying too hard), a level 20 Monk has Fast Healing 20. I have tried to find an equivalent in the MM, but I have failed. It seems that that value is so high, it's usually Regeneration instead. In the cases of Undead, who cannot have Regeneration because they are not alive, I haven't found anything higher than Fast Healing 10. In my opinion, you should keep it as Fast Healing = Con bonus, plus an extra 5 at level 15.
Improved Technique: So, a level 18 Monk is the equivalent of a Huge creature for those special attacks? I understand that she has improved her technique, but it strains willing suspension of disbelief. The reason large creatures gain bonuses to those attacks is because they are actually bigger than their enemy, and that's not something any amount of technique can replicate.
Sickening Blow: See Crippling Blow.
Diamond Body: Yeah, not seeing how it's Extraordinary instead of Supernatural. Immunity to all kinds of poison isn't something you can achieve through natural means, no matter how hard you try. Autohypnosis specifically states that it doesn't work against the Initial saving throw of the poison, which means that you can't use it to prevent yourself from contracting it, only to lessen its effects once it's already in your system. And the fact that only psionic classes get the skill as a class skill should lead us to the conclusion that it's not entirely natural. Also, the MM doesn't state whether Immunity to Poison is Extraordinary or Supernatural, but it would still not matter, since natural, inherent immunity should be Extraordinary, while acquired immunity should be Supernatural, since it's not something that you can acquire in a natural manner.
Disrupting Blow: Not only do I point out to what I said about Crippling Strike, I also find it simply too excessive. Not only is it unlimited (see Crippling Strike), but it also effectively nullifies all enemies that a Monk is currently threatening. They can't take a 5-foot step to cast, because of Following Step, they can't cast on the defensive, because this interrupts them as well, they can't use a Quickened spell to avoid the AoO, because, guess what? It interrupts them again. They want to attack you? You interrupt them and take no damage. And since you can interrupt Full Round actions, they can't actually damage you, ever. And it's not only against humanoid foes. It gets even worse when you nullify pretty much every monster in the book, since not matter what they try to do, whether it's attacking or using a special ability, you'll interrupt it no matter what. And since all uses of abilities are either Swift, Standard, Full Round or Immediate actions, there will not be a single action they can take against you or anyone else. And the worst part is that it's not simply once per round, it's once per round per enemy, which means that the Monk can prevent all actions (even Withdrawing!) simply by standing there and doing nothing. Wait. That's not the worst part. The worst part is that it doesn't allow a save, it merely requires that the attack hits. I think this ability needs an urgent remake. Either daily uses, adding a save, making it count as a Stunning Fist attempt (or all of those together), but it needs something.
Diamond Soul: Actually, you're right. SR is Ex.
Quivering Palm: I'm not arguing with the fact that there are spots that can kill when hit. What I'm saying is that if you allow the players to kill the enemy whenever they want, you can't possibly justify it as Ex anymore. It doesn't matter if most players won't do it, it's still incoherent.
Dazing Blow: See Crippling Strike, and also, while I understand what you tried to do there, you are still dazing creatures with no discernible anatomy (such as Plants, Aberrations and most Vermin), or who should not be affected by this mind-affecting effect (such as Undead and Constructs). And even if you say that there is some spell or magical effect somewhere that allows you to Daze Plants, Aberrations, Vermin, Constructs and/or Undead, not only would it still lack coherence, but it most definitely would not be Extraordinary under any concept.
Perfect Self: Meh. Everyone from level 20+ is already using Epic weapons anyway.
Hope that helps.
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[Post 5]
Author : Artistshipper
Date : May 10 '09 8:21pm
Warning: I am not familiar with ToB. If ToB has manouvers that already do some of this, then I am unaware of that. I am simply comparing the Monk to the rest of the Core classes and rules.
Alright, let's see. From the top:
Martial Arts: Weapon Finesse on steroids. Fits the theme.
Flurry of Blows: I'm not sure I follow, but how is this different from the regular Flurry of Blows? Are you saying it can also apply to attacks during a grapple? Or that a Monk may take a Move Action AND attack with a Flurry of Blows? Because if it's the latter, not only is it overpowered, it goes against the Full Attack rule (since Flurry of Blows is supposed to be a Full Attack, which is a Full Round action)
No, no it is not. We've been over this in the last thread. First of all, Melee characters desperately need a way to move an full attack in the same round to keep up with "mage" characters. It's only overpowered if you compare it to the fighter... but the fighter is also grossly underpowered and in need of a fix, so that logic falls flat. Psychic warriors learn "hustle" and can move-full-attack by level 4. Let me repeat. The goal is to make the monk competitive with the Swordsage, Psychich warrior, or Totemist. By definition, that means 2 steps better than the fighter.
Following Step: I'd personally rule that if the Monk uses this ability, then he cannot take a 5-foot step on the following round, but that's just a personal preference to prevent abuse.
TOB characters with 5th level stances can do this already with no penalty. So can anyone with Pursue from the ECS and a spare action point. Not a problem.
Ki Strike: I think that it's all good except for the part that it affects Monk weapons too. You're basically making materials useless, as you get the DR-bypassing of Silver without the damage penalty, the Cold Iron/Adamantine/etc without the added cost, etc. If it only affected Unarmed Strikes, it'd be good. I understand that you want to make the Monk worthwhile, but this is a bit extreme. If every other class has to pay the price to have its weapon made of a certain material (not only GP price, but some materials have drawbacks as well), then I don't see why the Monk is exempt from this. Also, I have no idea how you can justify having a class ability that makes your hands magical as an Extraordinary ability. Not to mention that it transmutes materials, and duplicates the effects of Align Weapon. Also, why should the Monk get Align Weapon at will? Or an at will version of Silversheen and every other material-altering spell/item/oil ever invented? Or even a free way of bypassing any and all DR for free, which affects any Monk weapon he wields on top of his Unarmed Strikes? This alone should reduce most encounters (especially low-to-mid level ones) to a walk in the park.
Uhm, no. The problem for monks is being able to hitting things and doing enough damage to more than annoy them. negating damage resistance doesn't help if the enemy is flying out of your reach, or has too high an AC to hit. Those are much more serious problems for the monk than DR. Negating DR does not make anything a "walk in the park". Do note that level 11 factotums can auto-bypass DR. So can martial adepts using Stone Dragon, as early as level 3 for single strikes, and 6 for full attacks. I agree that it should only apply to unarmed strikes though.
Crippling Strike: For an attack that, as long as it hits, it will hamper an enemy no matter if it saves or not, it should have a limited daily use. If it counted as a use of Stunning Fist, I think it'd be more balanced.
I concur.
Fast Healing: Quick math: Assuming a Constitution of 20 (obtained via magical means, most likely, and not even trying too hard), a level 20 Monk has Fast Healing 20. I have tried to find an equivalent in the MM, but I have failed. It seems that that value is so high, it's usually Regeneration instead. In the cases of Undead, who cannot have Regeneration because they are not alive, I haven't found anything higher than Fast Healing 10. In my opinion, you should keep it as Fast Healing = Con bonus, plus an extra 5 at level 15.
Hydras get fast healing 13. Thing is, even fast healing 10 is pretty much Negligible. By the time fast healing shows up, PC's are doing 30+ damage per hit. At best fats healing gives you 1 extra round of being alive. Fast healing 20 looks like a lot, perhaps, but it's actual effect in combat is maybe 2 extra rounds of not dying from HP damage instead of 1.
The real function of Fast healing is free out of combat healing. Whether monks auto-healing to full after some downtime is bad or not I won't comment on. (It isn't in the games I play, but I play at a higher optimization level than some people.) So if you cut it down to fast healing 5, the actual in game effect is pretty small.
Improved Technique: So, a level 18 Monk is the equivalent of a Huge creature for those special attacks? I understand that she has improved her technique, but it strains willing suspension of disbelief. The reason large creatures gain bonuses to those attacks is because they are actually bigger than their enemy, and that's not something any amount of technique can replicate.
Monks already have increasing damage dice for their unarmed strike, representing improvements in their martial arts technique. Increasing size too doesn't make much sense; I agree.
Diamond Body: Yeah, not seeing how it's Extraordinary instead of Supernatural. Immunity to all kinds of poison isn't something you can achieve through natural means, no matter how hard you try. Autohypnosis specifically states that it doesn't work against the Initial saving throw of the poison, which means that you can't use it to prevent yourself from contracting it, only to lessen its effects once it's already in your system. And the fact that only psionic classes get the skill as a class skill should lead us to the conclusion that it's not entirely natural.
But you don't need to be psionic to use aautohypnosis, so clearly it's no psionics reliant. It's based on training your mind, which is what psionic characters must do. It's like Wizards getting all the knowledges or Truenamers having speak language.
Also, the MM doesn't state whether Immunity to Poison is Extraordinary or Supernatural, but it would still not matter, since natural, inherent immunity should be Extraordinary, while acquired immunity should be Supernatural, since it's not something that you can acquire in a natural manner.
Your body actually changes, so that your immune system is so uber it beast all disease? not necessarily supernatural.
Disrupting Blow: Not only do I point out to what I said about Crippling Strike, I also find it simply too excessive. Not only is it unlimited (see Crippling Strike), but it also effectively nullifies all enemies that a Monk is currently threatening. They can't take a 5-foot step to cast, because of Following Step, they can't cast on the defensive, because this interrupts them as well, they can't use a Quickened spell to avoid the AoO, because, guess what? It interrupts them again. They want to attack you? You interrupt them and take no damage. And since you can interrupt Full Round actions, they can't actually damage you, ever. And it's not only against humanoid foes. It gets even worse when you nullify pretty much every monster in the book, since not matter what they try to do, whether it's attacking or using a special ability, you'll interrupt it no matter what. And since all uses of abilities are either Swift, Standard, Full Round or Immediate actions, there will not be a single action they can take against you or anyone else. And the worst part is that it's not simply once per round, it's once per round per enemy, which means that the Monk can prevent all actions (even Withdrawing!) simply by standing there and doing nothing. Wait. That's not the worst part. The worst part is that it doesn't allow a save, it merely requires that the attack hits. I think this ability needs an urgent remake. Either daily uses, adding a save, making it count as a Stunning Fist attempt (or all of those together), but it needs something.
Hmn, yeah, this needs a nerf.
Diamond Soul: Actually, you're right. SR is Ex.
Quivering Palm: I'm not arguing with the fact that there are spots that can kill when hit. What I'm saying is that if you allow the players to kill the enemy whenever they want, you can't possibly justify it as Ex anymore. It doesn't matter if most players won't do it, it's still incoherent.
So he should just remove the ability to delay the death from the attack.
Dazing Blow: See Crippling Strike, and also, while I understand what you tried to do there, you are still dazing creatures with no discernible anatomy (such as Plants, Aberrations and most Vermin), or who should not be affected by this mind-affecting effect (such as Undead and Constructs). And even if you say that there is some spell or magical effect somewhere that allows you to Daze Plants, Aberrations, Vermin, Constructs and/or Undead, not only would it still lack coherence, but it most definitely would not be Extraordinary under any concept.
Good point.
Perfect Self: Meh. Everyone from level 20+ is already using Epic weapons anyway.
Except the monsters.
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[Post 6]
Author : snakeman830
Date : May 10 '09 8:47pm
Notes: Daze is not a mind-affecting attack. Constructs and Undead are susceptible to daze.
Disrupting blow: Think about it this way. At level 5, wizards can do the same thing, except better. It's called Slow. If the target fails the will save, they are limited to one action per turn in addition to other penalties. They can't take full-round actions, and they have to choose either amove action or a standard action to do. Now the Monk gets a slightly worse ability 7 levels later. Disrupting Blow, because it can only interrupt one action per round per enemy, is actually not as good as everyone makes it out to be. If someone wants to be sure to get off their standard action, they use a move action to get away from the Monk first. If the Monk interrupts it (which there is still a chance they don't, thanks to it being an attack roll each time), they can go through with their standard as normal. If not, then the enemy moves and performs the standard action as normal. Later on when the Monk gets the ability to nail them for swift and immediate actions, again, it isn't as unbalancing as people assume. If the Monk interrupts the swift action, then the move and standard are free, even allowing a full-round without problem.
Crippling/Sickening Blow: In both of these cases, Stunning is superior, so having them cost Stunning Fist attempts is pointless. It will just mean they never get used. Remember, a Monk always will have Stunning Fist available.
Improved Technique: There is more to martial arts than just training yourself to hit harder. This ability reflects the various styles and techniques being improved while also having the Monk at least be somewhat good at these manuvers against more than just humanoids.
Ki Strike: I will limit this to Unarmed attacks. I understand your point here.
Flurry of Blows: They only gain the extra attacks from Flurry of Blows if they move/do whatever else, they do not get a full attack (meaning a 20th level monk can move and get attacks in at +20/+20/+20, but he has to execute a full-attack to get the +15/+10/+5 as well). They cannot use Flurry of Blows on an Attack of Opportunity.
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[Post 7]
Author : Paul_V
Date : May 10 '09 9:42pm
While I understand where most of everything's coming from, I still disagree on some points:
Quivering Palm: Yes, that would make sense.
Diamond Body: While I concede the point on Autohypnosis, I still don't know how you can become immune to diseases and poisons without resorting to magic. As a related note, Paladins' Divine Health is Ex, Monk's Purity of Body is Ex, but Diamond Body is Su. Not seeing the logic even within the game rules. Personally, I'd make all of those Su. Also, how can your body "change" to develop sudden immunity without the aid of magic or supernatural forces? Biology does not work like that.
Daze: It's a status, true, but one that can only be applied (as far as I know) via mind-affecting effects. Can you name something that Dazes Constructs and Undead that isn't a Mind-Affecting Effect (and make sure to mention whether it's Supernatural, Spell-like or Extraordinary)? Also, how can you daze someone withot affecting their minds?
Disrupting Blow: It doesn't allow a save. At high levels, it can interrupt multiple actions per enemy. It's at will, so you can't compare it with either spells or manouvers, because you have to spend those. You are still not explaining how it's not unbalancing to effectively stunlock all the enemies you threaten for free.
Crippling/Sickening Blow: Stunning Fist lasts for 1 round. Make this last longer, giving players the alternative to either Stun for a round or Cripple or Sicken for 1d4+1 or something. Also, I just realised that you rendered Plants, Constructs, Elementals and Undead affectable by this. While I understand that Slow affects them, this is not magic, which means that it has to rely on physics/biology. And that tells us that you can't cripple creatures without a discernible anatomy without the use of magic. On top of that, I've realised that your Monk gets attacks that aren't Save or Suck, they're Suck or Suck Some More. And while I understand that many spells do the same (though they're still a minority), they allow SR, can be Dispelled and don't work in Antimagic Fields. And even Supernatural effects can be rendered null in the aformentioned Antimagic Field. You've just created abilities that not only are usable at will, apply a negative effect no matter if the subject saves or not, and cannot be resisted in any way (except with a high AC, cover or concealment).
Improved Technique: Sorry, but I don't see the logical justification. How does being better at grappling makes you suddenly count as a larger creature? I would understand a bonus for all those attacks, but handwaving it as "it's all a matter of technique" isn't enough. You aren't giving a rational explanation for the size increase.
Flurry of Blows: Oh, I get it.
EDIT re: Perfect Self: Actually, many monsters have natural attacks that count as Epic Weapons. Solars, Tarrasques, those from the Epic Level Handbook, etc...
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[Post 8]
Author : sleeplessghost
Date : May 10 '09 11:06pm
I'm going to be dming for someone using this fix soon. I'll let you know how it goes.
Also:
Improved Technique: Sorry, but I don't see the logical justification. How does being better at grappling makes you suddenly count as a larger creature? I would understand a bonus for all those attacks, but handwaving it as "it's all a matter of technique" isn't enough. You aren't giving a rational explanation for the size increase.
So if he instead just said he became better at martial arts techniques and gave a +4 bonus every six levels it would be fine? I think you might be getting caught up on it being a size modifier, if that is the problem just make it a competence bonus.
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[Post 9]
Author : Paul_V
Date : May 10 '09 11:41pm
No, size modifier does more than giving a flat bonus. I can't remember the mechanics correctly, but I distinctly remembering doing something more than modifying the dice, on some of those cases.
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[Post 10]
Author : Silverlocke
Date : May 11 '09 12:55am
Disparity in sizes also makes certain grapple attempts impossible. You can only grapple a foe a certain number of size categories larger than you. If you increase a monk's size category, you not only make him more competent at grappling in general, but you also allow him to grapple foes too large for him to grapple previously, which does not make sense.
If a monk who gains Improved Technique can now exploit a greater understanding of momentum and stuff to put an armlock on an ogre which a couple of levels ago would have torn his arms off, that's fine. If a monk can suddenly grapple a titan by SQUEEZING ITS FINGER REALLY HARD, that's not fine. Or a purple wurm or something.
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[Post 11]
Author : Stam
Date : May 11 '09 1:12am
No, size modifier does more than giving a flat bonus. I can't remember the mechanics correctly, but I distinctly remembering doing something more than modifying the dice, on some of those cases.
Some special abilities only work on creatures smaller than themselves - perhaps that is what you're thinking of?
However, that would not apply to any of these cases, as they're not named specifically here. (Swallow Whole or Improved Grab utilize Grapple checks, but being considered Huge size for grappling purposes is not the same as being considered Huge size for Swallow Whole purposes.)
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[Post 12]
Author : Artistshipper
Date : May 11 '09 2:04am
If a monk who gains Improved Technique can now exploit a greater understanding of momentum and stuff to put an armlock on an ogre which a couple of levels ago would have torn his arms off, that's fine. If a monk can suddenly grapple a titan by SQUEEZING ITS FINGER REALLY HARD, that's not fine. Or a purple wurm or something.
Why not? The wizard could put it into a magical headlock with solid fog or hold monste several levels ago.
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[Post 13]
Author : Paul_V
Date : May 11 '09 2:07am
Stam: No, I think I meant what Silverlocke said. I'm not sure, I'd have to check the rules again.
Artistshipper: A wizard uses magic. It can be resisted, dispelled, countered or suppressed. Extraordinary abilities are immune to all that and are supposed to work in accordance with the laws of nature.
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[Post 14]
Author : snakeman830
Date : May 11 '09 2:59am
While I understand where most of everything's coming from, I still disagree on some points:
Quivering Palm: Yes, that would make sense. Already changed.
Diamond Body: While I concede the point on Autohypnosis, I still don't know how you can become immune to diseases and poisons without resorting to magic. As a related note, Paladins' Divine Health is Ex, Monk's Purity of Body is Ex, but Diamond Body is Su. Not seeing the logic even within the game rules. Personally, I'd make all of those Su. Also, how can your body "change" to develop sudden immunity without the aid of magic or supernatural forces? Biology does not work like that. Then think of it as always succeeding on the save. You get the same effect, but in a way that nobody disagrees with.
Daze: It's a status, true, but one that can only be applied (as far as I know) via mind-affecting effects. Can you name something that Dazes Constructs and Undead that isn't a Mind-Affecting Effect (and make sure to mention whether it's Supernatural, Spell-like or Extraordinary)? Also, how can you daze someone withot affecting their minds?
Ask Zercyll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718)
Disrupting Blow: It doesn't allow a save. But it does have to hit, which can be more difficult to accomplish. At high levels, it can interrupt multiple actions per enemy. 3/day as an immediate action, it can disrupt two. At level 20. It's at will, so you can't compare it with either spells or manouvers, because you have to spend those.Actually, past a certian point, any ability might as well be called "at will". Roy can explain this bit better than I can, but it's part of a failing from Warlocks. Plus, manuvers are at-will for all intents of puroses. Swift action to regain all of them for a Warblade, Crusaders don't even use an action, and Swordsages can even recover manuvers to use multiple times in one battle.You are still not explaining how it's not unbalancing to effectively stunlock all the enemies you threaten for free.
Yes I am. A spell 7 levels earlier already does this, and it is not a stunlock. They still get actions and I gave you a good example as to how they might perform their intended action anyway.
Crippling/Sickening Blow: Stunning Fist lasts for 1 round. Make this last longer, giving players the alternative to either Stun for a round or Cripple or Sicken for 1d4+1 or something. Also, I just realised that you rendered Plants, Constructs, Elementals and Undead affectable by this. A good blow to the locomotive limbs will render them limited, whether biological, flesh and blood, or otherwise. Sickening Blow is limited to crit-vulnerable foes.
Improved Technique: Sorry, but I don't see the logical justification. How does being better at grappling makes you suddenly count as a larger creature? I would understand a bonus for all those attacks, but handwaving it as "it's all a matter of technique" isn't enough. You aren't giving a rational explanation for the size increase. Remember that anyone in D&D past level 5 is entering into the mythic stories. Is it really hard to believe that someone who has trained his skills likely against foes much larger than himself hasn't also learned how to make them overextend themselves and fall? (trip). Perhaps they have learned the proper application of leverage to pin their opponent's arm behind their back (grapple) or wrench the weapon from their hands (disarm).
Grapple and Trip can only be done on opponents up to one size category larger than the initiator, so for the Monk to be able to use them at all against most foes, they need to be counted as being larger than they really are for these purposes.
I would hope I need no justification for Sunder, since there the Monk is only striking the weapon and it's just easier to say he counts as being Huge than saying seperately he gains a +12 bonus on this.
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[Post 15]
Author : Silverlocke
Date : May 11 '09 3:04am
Why not? The wizard could put it into a magical headlock with solid fog or hold monste several levels ago.
It's the same reason why a monk can't fly by flapping his arms really hard but a wizard could do it by casting a spell.
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[Post 16]
Author : snakeman830
Date : May 11 '09 3:08am
It's the same reason why a monk can't fly by flapping his arms really hard but a wizard could do it by casting a spell.
I think that was meant for a game balance comparison. Seriously, it does no good to say one thing is too good and is broken, then ignore something that does it better, earlier in the game.
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[Post 17]
Author : Artistshipper
Date : May 11 '09 3:25am
Uhm, D&D *explicitly* lets you break the laws of physics with EX abilities.
A sufficiently high excape artist check lets you squeeze into a space smaller than your head.
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[Post 18]
Author : Paul_V
Date : May 11 '09 4:02am
Then think of it as always succeeding on the save. You get the same effect, but in a way that nobody disagrees with.
You must have not read the skill in detail. Even auto-success does not render you immune to poison because it doesn't affect the Initial save. It is explicitly worded so that you cannot become immune to poison by making a skill check.
Ask Zercyll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718)
A) That is not in an official book, so it's optional content. B) It's a Supernatural ability. C) It should clarify what kind of effect it is, so it forcibly needs an errata. If I were a DM and had to adjudicate that effect, I'd make it Mind-Affecting, as it explicitly states that they're "Bolts of pure madness".
But it does have to hit, which can be more difficult to accomplish. 3/day as an immediate action, it can disrupt two. At level 20.Actually, past a certian point, any ability might as well be called "at will". Roy can explain this bit better than I can, but it's part of a failing from Warlocks. Plus, manuvers are at-will for all intents of puroses. Swift action to regain all of them for a Warblade, Crusaders don't even use an action, and Swordsages can even recover manuvers to use multiple times in one battle.
The difference between your Attack Bonus and the foe's AC is much smaller than the difference between a foe's save and the DC. As a Monk, it'll be easier for creatures to make your saves than avoid your attacks.
Yes I am. A spell 7 levels earlier already does this, and it is not a stunlock. They still get actions and I gave you a good example as to how they might perform their intended action anyway.
Spell. Which cannot be done at will, which can be resisted, etc. I've already typed up the whole list before. Fixing the Monk is all well and good, but you cannot slap spells to a class, saying they're Extraordinary and call it a day. You should take the time to look over everything and make sure it makes sense, and that you keep in mind what you're comparing. You can't say "oh, but Wizards can do this with their spells, why shouldn't the Monk be able to do it too?" and then proceed to give them at will spells that don't allow you to defend yourself against.
Also, while you indeed gave me a list of possible strategies, you conveniently failed to mention that you're still not allowing Full Round actions, because of this ability and Following Step. And when you can do it twice per round per foe 3/day, you are effectively cancelling the Move+Standard action combo. And even without that trick, it affects every single foe you threaten. Without a save. At will. And god forbid you get an item that gives your natural attacks reach, or something that increases your size. And it doesn't matter if you have to hit your foe, because almost all of your other class abilities depend on you hitting things. If you aren't putting all your resources there, you're playing this Monk wrong.
A good blow to the locomotive limbs will render them limited, whether biological, flesh and blood, or otherwise. Sickening Blow is limited to crit-vulnerable foes.
No matter how hard you hit, you should never be able to diminish the movement speed of an Adamantine Golem without the use of magic (or most Constructs, which are made of exceedingly hard and non-crippable materials). Not to mention that Plants (and some Aberrations) usually don't rely on a single set of limbs, most Elementals don't even use limbs for moving (And some are made of fire, air or water, which you cannot cripple!), and most Undead could easily ignore the crippling since they don't really feel pain (also, some Undead are incorporeal...). I did notice the part about Sickening, apologies if my post was unclear.
Remember that anyone in D&D past level 5 is entering into the mythic stories. Is it really hard to believe that someone who has trained his skills likely against foes much larger than himself hasn't also learned how to make them overextend themselves and fall? (trip). Perhaps they have learned the proper application of leverage to pin their opponent's arm behind their back (grapple) or wrench the weapon from their hands (disarm).
I understand your reasoning, but you can't handwave logic by saying that A Hero Does It. A Human Monk should not be able to Grapple (nor Pin!) a Colossal creature without the aid of magic. It is not logical, coherent or realistic.
Grapple and Trip can only be done on opponents up to one size category larger than the initiator, so for the Monk to be able to use them at all against most foes, they need to be counted as being larger than they really are for these purposes.
I really don't see what's wrong with that, from a rational point of view.
I would hope I need no justification for Sunder, since there the Monk is only striking the weapon and it's just easier to say he counts as being Huge than saying seperately he gains a +12 bonus on this.
No, I specifically stated I wasn't referring to the bonus, only to the other size-related aspects of the mechanics of some of the other special attacks.
Uhm, D&D *explicitly* lets you break the laws of physics with EX abilities.
A sufficiently high excape artist check lets you squeeze into a space smaller than your head.
Bend, not rape and break them like ragdolls. Actually, you can do that in real life, but it requires years of training and a very specific body shape.
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[Post 19]
Author : Stam
Date : May 11 '09 4:14am
Given that the whole problem here is that the Wizard gets to turn the laws of physics inside out from the get-go, and this is where we are attempting to push the Monk class towards in aim of improvement...
...like, what do we care that the things we're sticking on here don't make realistic sense?
Practically, even with this house rule a Monk is not going to be able to out-wrestle a Colossal being because of the disparity in Strength bonus - monsters of that size will have a Str well in excess of 30. It's more reasonable to suggest they'd be able to find appropriate leverage on something Huge in size (and even then, at the peak of this class's ability, they're only going to break even).
If it doesn't make as much sense here in Real Life yet manages to allow it to the monk to properly utilize these tactics effectively...then I say, to hell with Real Life physics. The wizard can do it and you're not crying foul - leave the poor underpowered monk alone. :p
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[Post 20]
Author : Amnistar
Date : May 11 '09 4:17am
Okay, from a realistic standpoint, is it feasable for a human to get into a wrestling match with a giant and have any chance? No.
From a balance perspective, Grapple/Sunder/Trip/Disarm all CEASE to be at all useful once you start fighting larger monsters because of the size difference. If there is, at all, to be any chance for any combatant to participate in such combat, they must gain the ability to effectively increase in size.
I would argue that treating them as a size larger is a bad way of phrasing it, because it gives them insane bonuses against creatures their own size, which isn't the point. Perhaps you can say that they are treated as having the same size as their opponent, up to size X?
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[Post 21]
Author : Paul_V
Date : May 11 '09 4:20am
Who says I'm not crying foul? I'm not allowing Wizards to overwrite reality in my campaign. If someone wants to make any significant change in reality or somehow break the laws of physics, they have to cast a ritual and pay a terrible price. Regular spellcasters can, at most, use their Elements to deal HP damage, buff/debuff, heal or protect (VERY few save or die spells). And anything with a casting time longer than a round has been turned into a ritual, with the aforementioned Terrible Price(tm). Also, I'm handing out SR, Evasion, Stamina and Mettle (and their Improved versions) like candy.
So yeah, I'll cry foul. :P
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[Post 22]
Author : Amnistar
Date : May 11 '09 4:22am
Okay so the monk isn't balanced for your homebrew world, which does not use the core as it's ruleset.
We're attempting to make the monk balanced with the standard world, that does use the core.
EDIT: Didn't mean to make that sound snarky, and apologize if it came across that way. I mean that if you're de-buffing spellcasters in your world, then this fix is obviously not going to be appropriate, because it's geared towards a game that hasn't been toned down.
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[Post 23]
Author : Paul_V
Date : May 11 '09 4:33am
No problem, I completely understand your point, but you can't fix anything without depowering the casters. If your intention is to make the Monk on par with the Wizard, you need to give it the chance to cast every available spell on either the Sorcerer/Wizard or the Cleric list. That's the only way things are ever going to get fair. Even as written, the fix does very little narrow the abysmal gap.
Think that in order to give melee fighters a decent chance at being on par with the casters, they had to create an entirely new magic system, oriented for physical combat. Call it manouvers and initiators, but we all know it was a new magic system. You're not going to be able to fix the Monk without either doing that or depowering the casters (albeit not all of them, only those with the ability to make reality their slave).
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[Post 24]
Author : Amnistar
Date : May 11 '09 5:01am
Which is why the intent isn't to get them on par with casters, but with the hybrid classes, like psychic blades.
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[Post 25]
Author : sleeplessghost
Date : May 11 '09 6:02am
Why are people complaining about realism in DnD? Should the manyshot or greater manyshot feat be banned because what it proposes is impossible? No, it is FUN and does not unbalance the game. Or just ban anything that breaks the laws of physics or strains credulity? Like all of the class features that stop aging or even the hit-point system. If you want to make a character or class that allows uber-grappling then do it.
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[Post 26]
Author : Artistshipper
Date : May 11 '09 10:37am
Which is why the intent isn't to get them on par with casters, but with the hybrid classes, like psychic blades.
Yes, exactly. I've only said it 4 times now. Balance the fixed monk with a Totemist, Warblade, beguiler or Psychic warrior.
What's a psychic blade? if you refer to the soulknife, many consider it as bad as if not worse than the monk. "Hey look i'm a fighter withot bonus feats who shot his BAB in the face for a weapon that isn't as good as what WBL can buy."
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[Post 27]
Author : snakeman830
Date : May 11 '09 5:42pm
You must have not read the skill in detail. Even auto-success does not render you immune to poison because it doesn't affect the Initial save. It is explicitly worded so that you cannot become immune to poison by making a skill check.You obviously didn't really read what I wrote. After all, there is an initial save against the first damage/effect of poison. Success negates this. You repeat the save 1 minute later. Again, success negates. I only said that immunity to poison could be partially replicated with Autohypnosis. Treating it as always succeeding on the Fort save gives you the same effect as blanket immunity while having it clearly nonmagical.
A) That is not in an official book, so it's optional content. B) It's a Supernatural ability. C) It should clarify what kind of effect it is, so it forcibly needs an errata. If I were a DM and had to adjudicate that effect, I'd make it Mind-Affecting, as it explicitly states that they're "Bolts of pure madness". Actually, no. It doesn't need an erratta. Daze is not only mind-effecting (see Celerity, a non-mind effecting spell that dazes the user), and there is nothing to suggest that everything needs additional effect tags. True, it's not an official book, but it is WotC published material, so it's fair game for consideration.
The difference between your Attack Bonus and the foe's AC is much smaller than the difference between a foe's save and the DC. As a Monk, it'll be easier for creatures to make your saves than avoid your attacks.Miss chances and melee range are enough to easily balance it out.
Also, while you indeed gave me a list of possible strategies, you conveniently failed to mention that you're still not allowing Full Round actions, because of this ability and Following Step. And when you can do it twice per round per foe 3/day, you are effectively cancelling the Move+Standard action combo.
Wrong. They can disrupt a second action on a foe as an immediate action 3/day. This means they can disrupt 2 actions from one enemy and one from each other they threaten a round up to 3/day, assuming every attempt works. And even without that trick, it affects every single foe you threaten. Without a save. At will. And god forbid you get an item that gives your natural attacks reach, or something that increases your size. Slow: 1 target per caster level (meaning up to 12 at the same level) and at range, no attack roll required, all targets must be withing 30ft of each other target. As I said before, this is not something that isn't done better, earlier. Seriously, if you're going to cry foul on game balance, at least do it properly. And it doesn't matter if you have to hit your foe, because almost all of your other class abilities depend on you hitting things. If you aren't putting all your resources there, you're playing this Monk wrong. Yes it does matter, since any number of things can make it so you miss or lack the opportunity to even try it.
No matter how hard you hit, you should never be able to diminish the movement speed of an Adamantine Golem without the use of magic (or most Constructs, which are made of exceedingly hard and non-crippable materials). Not to mention that Plants (and some Aberrations) usually don't rely on a single set of limbs, most Elementals don't even use limbs for moving (And some are made of fire, air or water, which you cannot cripple!), and most Undead could easily ignore the crippling since they don't really feel pain (also, some Undead are incorporeal...).If you're facing Adamantine Golems pre-epic, I would find another DM. As for hitting it hard? I don't know, how about freaking breaking the leg? How else do you think those things get damaged and brought down? Stuff breaks on them. Most of the plants that don't rely on limbs also can't move. Elementals are indeed more difficult to justify and I was considering omitting them from the list. Undead may not feel pain, but if you break their leg, they can't move as well. Incorporeal undead are generally safe from this attack anyway as Unarmed Strikes cannot strike incorporeal opponents (magic weapons are magic, so that's all the justification needed there)
I understand your reasoning, but you can't handwave logic by saying that A Hero Does It. A Human Monk should not be able to Grapple (nor Pin!) a Colossal creature without the aid of magic. It is not logical, coherent or realistic. They still don't really have a chance at doing that until well into Epic where the world breaks if you look at it funny. I don't see the problem with them being able to wrestle a giant, though.
I really don't see what's wrong with that, from a rational point of view.Simple: those manuvers were meant to be used by the PC's as much as the enemies. Past level 10, the PC's never bother with them because they know they cannot succeed. In a world view, tripping something much larger than yourself should still be possible, it just takes a little more skill than dropping another humanoid. Fiction is full of times when a big creature falls to the ground to a single human (or similar).
Bend, not rape and break them like ragdolls. Actually, you can do that in real life, but it requires years of training and a very specific body shape.
And this is different how? Here it requires years of training as well. Only difference is that instead of needing a specific body shape, they need a little experience with the big foes. Yeah, it's easy to say that no real human could trip a Titan (even though I could see it happening), but there are no Titans in real life for anyone to have any experience with. If you've spent part of your life fighting them and similar creatures however, you've probably learned a few tricks to equalize. That is what this ability is supposed to represent.
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[Post 28]
Author : Paul_V
Date : May 11 '09 6:35pm
Actually, no. It doesn't need an erratta. Daze is not only mind-effecting (see Celerity, a non-mind effecting spell that dazes the user), and there is nothing to suggest that everything needs additional effect tags. True, it's not an official book, but it is WotC published material, so it's fair game for consideration.
Daze is a status effect. It does not have an effect connotation because it is always accompanied by an effect that enables it. You can't Daze someone without doing something first to them. In the specific case of Daze, logic and common sense state that you must affect the target's mind. That is, by definition, a mind-affecting effect. In the case of Celerity, it's a penalty to balance out the benefit, and it should state what kind of effect is Daze, since it's most obviously not Transmutation.
Miss chances and melee range are enough to easily balance it out.
Like I said before, you entire class relies on being able to hit things in melee. If you aren't doing your best to reduce miss chances and making sure that you're able to stay at melee range without problems, you're not playing this Monk right. Making those abilities have a save balances the fact that you are likely to hit almost every time. Or give it daily uses, so that you can't do it all the time. Even Wizards can't cast Slow every day whenever they want. Not to mention Slow allows a save and SR.
Wrong. They can disrupt a second action on a foe as an immediate action 3/day. This means they can disrupt 2 actions from one enemy and one from each other they threaten a round up to 3/day, assuming every attempt works. Slow: 1 target per caster level (meaning up to 12 at the same level) and at range, no attack roll required, all targets must be withing 30ft of each other target. As I said before, this is not something that isn't done better, earlier. Seriously, if you're going to cry foul on game balance, at least do it properly. Yes it does matter, since any number of things can make it so you miss or lack the opportunity to even try it.
Slow: Is not at will. Can be resisted, dispelled, countered, nullified. Allows a save. Your Monk, in optimal conditions (affected by Blood Wind and surrounded by enemies) can duplicate this effect for 20 enemies. Once again, at will, with no save, etc.
If you're facing Adamantine Golems pre-epic, I would find another DM. As for hitting it hard? I don't know, how about freaking breaking the leg? How else do you think those things get damaged and brought down? Stuff breaks on them. Most of the plants that don't rely on limbs also can't move. Elementals are indeed more difficult to justify and I was considering omitting them from the list. Undead may not feel pain, but if you break their leg, they can't move as well. Incorporeal undead are generally safe from this attack anyway as Unarmed Strikes cannot strike incorporeal opponents (magic weapons are magic, so that's all the justification needed there)
If you can break someone's steel leg before your attacks count as Adamantine, it explicitly goes against the rules, as per object hardness. True, yet why would you be able to reduce the movement speed of a Violet Fungus, which has several different appendages for moving? Or an Assassin Vine, which has a speed of 5 ft.? (you would be rendering it immobile, as per round down rules) Also, since your unarmed attacks count as Magic weapons at some point, you would indeed be able to affect incorporeal beings.
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[Post 29]
Author : snakeman830
Date : May 11 '09 8:32pm
Counting as magic for overcoming DR =/= actually being magic weapons. Out of all the monsters in the MM, only the Unicorn can actually strike incorporeal creatures with a natural attack (not counting other incorporeal creatures) because thier horn actually has an enhancement bonus.
Spell resistance is a joke and there is nothing that can be done to limit miss chances without resorting to magic (besides Blind-fight, but that only helps with concealment). Thus, it is less of a problem than you make it out to be. It really isn't uncommon for full BAB characters to have trouble hitting things, even before accounting for miss chances, and that's with a magic weapon (which monks have some incentive not to use now). Melee range is easily countered by virtually any fly speed.
Breaking anything is merely a matter of doing enough damage (force effects excluded). Hardness just raises the amount of damage that needs to be done. Even with this fact, note that no golem has hardness, so it's a moot point.
I have changed Crippling Blow to no longer effect elementals or supernatural modes of movement.
Hey, if you're bringing optimal conditions into it, you have to bring optimal conditions into both cases. This means that the opponents all failed their saves and none can dispel anything. Even under the best conditions, the Monk has a 5% chance to fail to disrupt while anyone who bothered using slow at that level has 0% chance to do the same. No, slow is not "at will", but the total number of times it needs to be cast is 1 or 2, depending on how lucky the enemy is with their save. And that lasts for at least 12 rounds with one use (assuming the same level). The Monk, under optimal conditions, has a 56.8% chance (over only 12 rounds) of disrupting the same number of actions on a single target. When you expand this to 20, it drops even more. Of course, this is a moot point since the battle is over by round 4 anyway.
What's causing the daze? How about the blow that knocked the guy senesless? I think that's a pretty good cause. I've been over this fix many times looking at other abilities that are available by the same level. Nothing breaks the game, but I think they may bring the Monk up to par with the more balanced classes (Psychic Warrior, Totemist, Warblade, Sorcerer, Beguiler, and similar ones). If it kicks the Fighter's ass, fine. That just means it is now useable in a long game.
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[Post 30]
Author : Sithobi1
Date : May 11 '09 11:08pm
So...Daze is mind-affecting because you say it is, and anything that causes daze must be mind-affecting even if it isn't. Do you have any rules anywhere that support your assertion? Oh, as another datapoint: Archivists.
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[Post 31]
Author : sleeplessghost
Date : May 11 '09 11:16pm
If you would be using this fix and disrupting strike is that big of an issue then say they lose one attack in the next round for every successful hit, it takes a little more book keeping buy would make the player weigh their options more.
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[Post 32]
Author : Paul_V
Date : May 11 '09 11:31pm
No, I don't have anything to support my claim, since neither DMG, SRD nor Rules Compendium state whether Daze is a purely mind-affecting effect or not. I only have in my defense that every single spell I'm aware of (with the exception of Celerity) that causes Daze is an Enchantment [Mind-Affecting] one. But I think I've given as much imput as I could, I really don't have anything else to add.
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[Post 33]
Author : Stam
Date : May 12 '09 6:59pm
Snake, I still haven't seen anything from you on your desired flavor of the monk. I can infer a little from what's up there already, but...not entirely?
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[Post 34]
Author : Stam
Date : May 12 '09 7:55pm
Right, critiques.
The bonus feats? Leave Stunning Fist and Improved Grapple right where they are, but the other five (Imp trip, disarm, combat reflexes, deflect arrows, Spring attack)? Spread them out over levels 4-12, and let the player choose which one they get at what level.
Martial Arts/Unarmed Strike: "They may also use their Dex Modifier instead of their Strength for Grapple, Disarm Overrun, and Trip checks." Overrun and Bull Rush are both more keyed on Strength, but Disarm/Grapple/Trip can all be finesse/technique...IMHO, at least.
Following Step: Have this use an Immediate action (i.e. uses their Swift action for the next round). This way it costs them something, or might cost them something, and also is restricted to once per round rather than having the monk step all over the battlefield comically because of multiple opponents.
Crippling Blow: 1/round, and cut speed in half, and 1 minute in duration or until healed. Leave the restrictions about not-in-same-round as-is. (This makes it more comparable to the feat available to the rogue.)
Fast Healing: Make this FH 1 at 5th - but only work while the monk is meditating in a quiet, calm environment. Essentially, out-of-combat healing only. Have it go up to FH 5 at 10th, with the same restrictions. Remove the restrictions and have it act as Fast Healing 5 at level 15 or 20, up where it doesn't really matter anyway.
This is, essentially, out-of-combat healing and should be clear that way.
Improved Technique: The jury seems to still be out on this one. For tactical maneuvers to work, it's sorta required (and even negating size bonuses/penalties is not really enough once you take into account huge Str bonuses and multiple feet). I will not make any comments here.
Sickening Blow: Just remove this. Period. It's a waste of space to even consider applying a Fort save that's only going to result in a -2 at this level.
Disrupting Blow: Again, Immediate action or 1/round. Maybe expand it out to two actions a round as you note later, restricted to 3/day, but otherwise this is required.
Staggering Blow: Make this a special Standard Action of its own (hence, only one attack) but otherwise unlimited in uses per day. If they're going for a Shut-You-Down punch, make them pay for it.
Quivering Palm: Just call it Death Punch now. (See: Fight Science documentary on Youtube, specifically the Ninjutsu one.) That's what it effectively is.
Done. :)
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[Post 35]
Author : snakeman830
Date : May 12 '09 8:08pm
My desired flavor was discussed in the origional topic, but I'll sumarize it here for refrence.
The original Monk lacked focus, and obviously, I wanted to bring some in without pidgeonholing everyone into the same character. I decided that the Monk sought as complete self-control over mind and body as possible without going into magic or psionics. Martial arts are often taught as a form of discipline, so that stayed, and actually became a much greater focus for the class. I wanted the class to be useful in combat, so I had to find something that worked. The inherent mobility of the class was a good starting point, and past a certian level, it would be without resorting to ToB (in which case, the player would just go Swordsage) or breaking the game for the Monk to deal enough damage to be useful that way. Thus, he needed to do something else. Stunning Fist was the best place to start from there, so the Monk's which they lacked before is to run around and limit their opponent's ability to fight. This meant that they needed options in combat. Otherwise, they would spend each turn attempting to stun an opponent and that was it. This is why the various special attacks and tactical manuever bonuses were added, so they could do something besides stun (and thus actually being able to do something to most foes). Since Stunning Fist is superior to all of the various abilities, I couldn't have them cost Stunning Fist attempts if I expected them to be used. Since Monks have so many attempts to stun, the only real way to make it so anything else could be used more often is to have them be at will.
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[Post 36]
Author : Stam
Date : May 12 '09 8:14pm
Essentially, you want them to be a mobile single-foe-harrier, then?
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[Post 37]
Author : snakeman830
Date : May 12 '09 8:23pm
Right, critiques.
The bonus feats? Leave Stunning Fist and Improved Grapple right where they are, but the other five (Imp trip, disarm, combat reflexes, deflect arrows, Spring attack)? Spread them out over levels 4-12, and let the player choose which one they get at what level.Spring Attack I think wil stay where it is, but the others I'll see if I can spread out. I guess you're right in that it is a little front-heavy.
Martial Arts/Unarmed Strike: "They may also use their Dex Modifier instead of their Strength for Grapple, Disarm Overrun, and Trip checks." Overrun and Bull Rush are both more keyed on Strength, but Disarm/Grapple/Trip can all be finesse/technique...IMHO, at least. I didn't include Disarm or Sunder because those are both attack-roll based. The Monk uses his Dex instead of Strength anyway. Overrun I will remove, though.
Following Step: Have this use an Immediate action (i.e. uses their Swift action for the next round). This way it costs them something, or might cost them something, and also is restricted to once per round rather than having the monk step all over the battlefield comically because of multiple opponents. I'll consider it, but I'm going to have very few abilities that use Immediate Actions.
Crippling Blow: 1/round, and cut speed in half, and 1 minute in duration or until healed. Leave the restrictions about not-in-same-round as-is. (This makes it more comparable to the feat available to the rogue.) So this needs to be improved, in other words.
Fast Healing: Make this FH 1 at 5th - but only work while the monk is meditating in a quiet, calm environment. Essentially, out-of-combat healing only. Have it go up to FH 5 at 10th, with the same restrictions. Remove the restrictions and have it act as Fast Healing 5 at level 15 or 20, up where it doesn't really matter anyway.
This is, essentially, out-of-combat healing and should be clear that way.Hmm, that's an idea. A lot better for those who think fast healing is overpowered. Only difference is that I would change it so it's active whenever the Monk isn't rushed or threatened (and thus, it would not aplly during combat, but it would apply in the typical pub)
Sickening Blow: Just remove this. Period. It's a waste of space to even consider applying a Fort save that's only going to result in a -2 at this level.What I was considering at this point I believe was the possibility of nauseating the foe on the second round, but I think you're right in that it isn't worth the space.
Disrupting Blow: Again, Immediate action or 1/round. Maybe expand it out to two actions a round as you note later, restricted to 3/day, but otherwise this is required.I think 1/round would be best, that way they still can perform a different immediate action (such as the 2/round at 20th). Maybe expand it so they can use it against more foes as they increase in level (still limited to 1/action per foe)
Staggering Blow: Make this a special Standard Action of its own (hence, only one attack) but otherwise unlimited in uses per day. If they're going for a Shut-You-Down punch, make them pay for it. Here I was considering the feat Staggering Strike (CAdv) which lets Rogues do it every sneak attack (which, for a good Rogue, means every attack) This ability has a lower save DC (no bonus dice contributing to boost the DC) and can only be attempted 1/round. I don't know what we should make of that, though.
Quivering Palm: Just call it Death Punch now. (See: Fight Science documentary on Youtube, specifically the Ninjutsu one.) That's what it effectively is.
Done. :)
That works.
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[Post 38]
Author : snakeman830
Date : May 12 '09 8:26pm
Essentially, you want them to be a mobile single-foe-harrier, then?
Generally yes, but with the ability to handle multiple foes as well if need be. They just can't do it as well as a single opponent.
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[Post 39]
Author : Toliudar
Date : Jul 29 '09 5:29pm
A quick question on the disabling strike ability: is a full-attack action one action, or is each attack within it an action?
I am also troubled by the "unlimited use" nature of the new strikes. What about creating a second "pool" of strikes, like the uses of stunning blow, that the new abilities draw upon. I see the scenario of a monk with reach shutting down 4 (6, 8....) or more standard actions with disabling strikes, without even using any of his own actions, as potentially whacked.
Oh, and to add to the list of non-mind-affecting Daze effects: Order's Wrath. And if you're allowing constructs to be dazed by the strike, I'm not at all clear on the rationale for it NOT working on oozes and elementals. Does the blob really have that much more structural integrity than an animated table?
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[Post 40]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Jul 31 '09 12:58am
Disrupting Strike (I assume you're talking about) can only be used 1/round and requires no action on the Monk's part. At 20th level, they can use an immediate action to disrupt an additional action.
The other strikes are unlimited so that they will be used. If I had them drawing from the Stunning Fist pool, then Stunning Fist would be the only attack ever used, since it is superior to all of them.
Elementals and Oozes are completely homogenous in their formation whereas constructs are not, so it's even more difficult to justify against them.
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[Post 41]
Author : Toliudar
Date : Jul 31 '09 1:29am
Well, I'm not sure why an ooze (that eats and breathes) is more homogeneous than an animated boulder, but that's your call.
I think I understand why you're dealing with unlimited uses of these abilities, but if I understand correctly, a 16th level monk flurrying a quarterstaff two handed, and using unarmed strikes as a secondary weapon, could use a Dazing Blow, a Staggering Blow, a Crippling Blow and a Stunning Fist, and still have at least three more attacks after that. Seems like a lot, and hence why I was suggesting a second pool of uses of this ability.
My understanding is that you're working to bring the Monk into line with the ToB classes, which makes PERFECT sense to me. But most of those classes' abilities are standard action, or act the same for each attack in a full attack. This seems like, by contrast, it would take a lot longer to resolve, and remove the maneuver mechanic that helps to balance ToB.
Still, I'd be fascinated to see it in action!
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[Post 42]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Jul 31 '09 2:46am
So far, the feedback has been that it stands up rather well when compared to ToB classes. Does it take more time at the table? Yes it does. Of course, the Stunning supercedes the Dazing, which superceeds the Staggering and Crippling in your example.
I tried to bring the Monk into balance with ToB without giving it ToB manuvers.
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[Post 43]
Author : Dragonsdale
Date : Aug 9 '09 9:47pm
I see he gets Mettle at lv2.
what is that?
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[Post 44]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Aug 9 '09 10:28pm
Mettle is basically evasion for Fortitude/Will effects, but it also works on Fort/Will Partial as well as Fort/Will half. To my knowledge, there is no Improved Mettle
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[Post 45]
Author : Dragonsdale
Date : Aug 9 '09 10:51pm
could explain more thoroughly? or link me to some?
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[Post 46]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Aug 10 '09 12:19am
Basically, Mettle turns Fort/Will half and Fort/Will partial into Fort/Will negates when used against you, much as Evasion turns Ref half into Ref negates.
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[Post 47]
Author : Dragonsdale
Date : Aug 10 '09 1:01am
*reads once.*
* reads twice.*
*reads five times*
Oh.... I get it!
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[Post 48]
Author : GartiusHelmspliter
Date : Aug 31 '09 12:34am
Looks greatly improved but i would still decrease fast healing down a lot, make it +1 every four levels, this makes it better than greater vigor(FH4 lasts 35 rounds) at level twenty (FH5 and no limit) and you get a steady progression upwards. Most feats after all only give you FH2 (combat vigor gives you FH2(4))
This makes it purely out of combat healing and even then it doesn't take that long to heal (4 minutes =40 rounds ergo 200 HP)
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[Post 49]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Aug 31 '09 1:04am
Since it can only perform out-of-combat healing for the first 14 levels, I don't see a problem in that as it will basically result in the same effect regardless of value. Even when it does apply in combat (level 15 and later), Fast Healing 10 and scaling by 5 every 5 levels isn't a big deal and likely won't change the combat.
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[Post 50]
Author : GartiusHelmspliter
Date : Aug 31 '09 6:05pm
It is still the highest fast healing for all classes and has barely any drawback-heck the dragonshamen's FH only lasts up to you reach half HP. Plus you are talking a LOT of HP really quickly-you can be healed in 2 minutes max. Thats not on-you need it to be similar with other classes to make it fair.
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[Post 51]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Aug 31 '09 7:20pm
The point is that, at the levels you get it at, value really doesn't matter unless it's something like 50. At level 20, Fast Healing 15 if you are incredibly lucky buy you another round of survival in-combat. Outside of combat, the value doesn't matter as you are still at full hit points in time for the next fight. Out of combat, Fast Healing 1 and Fast Healing 200 might as well be the same. You're still fully healed within a few minutes.
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[Post 52]
Author : BlueDay
Date : Sep 26 '09 6:02pm
This sounds like just a very bad power-build...Not really a fix.
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[Post 53]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Sep 26 '09 6:11pm
This sounds like just a very bad power-build...Not really a fix.
Care to elborate?
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[Post 54]
Author : LordRahl
Date : Sep 27 '09 2:49am
Remember that anyone in D&D past level 5 is entering into the mythic stories. Is it really hard to believe that someone who has trained his skills likely against foes much larger than himself hasn't also learned how to make them overextend themselves and fall? (trip). Perhaps they have learned the proper application of leverage to pin their opponent's arm behind their back (grapple) or wrench the weapon from their hands (disarm).
Grapple and Trip can only be done on opponents up to one size category larger than the initiator, so for the Monk to be able to use them at all against most foes, they need to be counted as being larger than they really are for these purposes.
I would hope I need no justification for Sunder, since there the Monk is only striking the weapon and it's just easier to say he counts as being Huge than saying seperately he gains a +12 bonus on this.
As a martial artist, I'm glad to see someone fixing the monk class. They're seriously screwed up. However, as a martial artist, I also know the limits of the art.
Yes, monks should get extra grappling ability. I believe improved grapple is sufficient for this, however.
More food for thought; not all martial artists can grapple. In fact, I've met guys who are worse at grappling than someone with NO martial arts training, because they practiced striking so often. I believe someone brought up a monk grappling a titan as an example. For example, no matter how skilled I get at my art, I could never feasibly grapple a whale, for example. Or even an elephant. Hell, I might have difficulty fighting a chimp (Which can be very violent and dangerous.) Overall, I would make improved technique something else. Perhaps a scaling damage bonus on attack rolls. Or a +2 to grappling/trip/sunder checks.
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[Post 55]
Author : JackMann
Date : Sep 27 '09 3:02am
A monk with improved grapple still isn't any good at grappling. That is, not only does grappling quickly become a niche strategy that works only on a tiny fraction of enemies (that is, the humanoid ones), the monk, with its focus on wisdom and dexterity, will tend to have significantly lower strength than enemy melee combatants, as well as lower base attack bonus. The +4 from improved grapple becomes inconsequential quickly. Spellcasting enemies will tend to be able to either escape from a grapple (with spells like dimension door, freedom of movement, or even teleport), or, more likely, never end up grappled in the first place, since removing themselves from the monk's reach is depressingly easy. Monks, therefore, need something other than improved grapple to get them up to snuff, or else have grappling removed entirely from the class design.
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[Post 56]
Author : Hyudra
Date : Sep 27 '09 3:02am
When one grapples a large creature, I envision it more as you clinging onto a vulnerable part of their body and punching/squeezing/tearing it. Picture the monk straddling the titan's face, an eyelid in each hand, pulling.
By all rights, really, the same sort of source material that depicts our Gandalfs and ancient wizards also has warrior-types slashing mountains in two and killing tens of soldiers with a single blow. Bad things happen to balance when one depicts one type of class as being literally earth-shattering while another is constrained by "Well, that's not realistic'. I think designers of melee classes should take every opportunity available to enhance and exaggerate the class while staying true to the flavor. It is epic fantasy, after all.
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[Post 57]
Author : Krazddndfreek
Date : Sep 29 '09 8:18am
I think that Crippling/Staggering/Disrupting/Dazing blow should not be able to be used in the same round. Also, Death Punch right now can be used as many times as you want per round, instead of just once.
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[Post 58]
Author : aikimiller
Date : Sep 29 '09 11:40am
As a martial artist, I'm glad to see someone fixing the monk class. They're seriously screwed up. However, as a martial artist, I also know the limits of the art.
As another martial artist, I too love playing monks. However, just as a reminder, this isn't a game that really concerns itself with reality too much. No, no martial artist in real life can actually grapple an elephant. But then, no one in real life can stop time or reverse gravity either. When working to fix the monk class, we need to keep in mind that we do need to balance it against what spellcasters are capable of. At high level, this is probably going to get a little ridiculous if you compare it to what an actual martial artist is capable of.
And just to throw this out there, one thing I was considdering trying for a monk fix was to give them more stat bumps. +1 to a physical stats at 2, 6, 10, 14, 18, and +1 to a mental stat at 5, 10, 15 and 20.
Also, I was allowing my players to use flurry of blows as part of a standard action- a class with no armor and a d8 HD typically doesn't want to be standing in one place for long.
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[Post 59]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Sep 29 '09 3:19pm
Also, Death Punch right now can be used as many times as you want per round, instead of just once.
Now only useable once per round and not on the same attack as any of the other abilities.
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[Post 60]
Author : JackMann
Date : Sep 29 '09 3:33pm
You're going up against creatures with fire breath and giant teeth with your bare fists. You're going up against maniacs with axes and swords barehanded. You're fighting people who hold the primal forces of the universe in their fingertips. "Realistically" the monk should not be able to compete in open combat. Luckily, this is not a realistic game. The monk is not intended to be a mundane martial artist, because a mundane martial artist wouldn't be able to keep up.
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[Post 61]
Author : Stam
Date : Sep 29 '09 3:37pm
And, Wuxia.
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[Post 62]
Author : stycotl
Date : Sep 29 '09 10:00pm
You're going up against creatures with fire breath and giant teeth with your bare fists. You're going up against maniacs with axes and swords barehanded. You're fighting people who hold the primal forces of the universe in their fingertips. "Realistically" the monk should not be able to compete in open combat. Luckily, this is not a realistic game. The monk is not intended to be a mundane martial artist, because a mundane martial artist wouldn't be able to keep up.
bingo. he gets it.
*********
to the class:
cool monk redux. this makes me want to go back and redo my old monk fix, since it doesn't really do anything to fix the things that need fixing, just makes them more mobile.
anyway, a few things that stand out:
flurry of blows is absolutely fine as a standard act. the whole point of a monk is to make it mobile and evasive... and then wizards makes one of its only redeeming offensive abilities (if you can call it that at 3/4 bab) usable only when they are standing around in the same spot. brilliant. i see no problem with this as a standard act whatsoever, especially when other classes are doing it better than the monk.
those bonus feats really do need to be spaced out evenly, as someone else mentioned earlier. and allowing the player to choose in which order they are gained would be stellar. in fact, i'd just expand the list to include some of the monk-only feats that wizards has put out and then let the players go to town. but that's me.
i'd make following step count as an AoO or an immediate act at least until level 6 or something. this isn't a big issue to me though; it just seems like it'd mesh better.
i see no reason to nerf the conditions within which fast healing apply at lower levels. we are talking about fast healing 1 and 5 at those levels. at that level, clerics are bestowing curses and healing *serious* wounds, and wizards are casting haste. fast healing 1 is a token benefit to a character that has supposedly mastered its body as the wizards have their spells.
as far as the improved technique argument goes, it is believable that a smaller creature could grapple with or pin a larger one. there are grappling maneuvers that don't require more than a few fingers inside your opponent's eyes, in his mouth (fishhook anyone?), in his armpit, etc. you twist someone's fingers the right way (even if they are a titan), and they are going to follow you wherever you take them (hence the "comealong" name). when i was about ten or so, i was teasing my cat, and it bit my nose. one incisor went up each nostril––i hope you can appreciate the pain. you can better believe that i stopped moving and was willing to allow that tiny cat to control the situation from that point on. though i could have grabbed the animal and torn it off or tried to wrestle it off, i would have done more damage than i was alreasdy subjecting myself to. that is the essence of a simple pin; look at the arm bars and others like them.
disrupting blow seems a bit confusing to me in the sense that no action is given in order to use the standard ability as far as i can see, but at level 20, the monk can use an immediate in order to disrupt two actions. i'd just make the whole thing an immediate act. specify that when attacking multiple foes in this fashion, that the immediate act allows three different foes to be attacked or whatever.
why is death touch usable only 3/day at 20th level? if you are gonna limit it that much, you need to add something akin to the 9th level tiger claw maneuver, saying that they still take 20d6 damage on a failed save, or something similar. if you don't want to go that route, then up the uses per day.
dazing blow seems redundant to me. it is good that you didn't make it a standard act, and that redeems it even if you decide not to take my advice here. but i would just do something similar to the pain touch monk feat and say that any foe that is successfully stunned, staggered, or disrupted, is auto dazed the next round. seems cleanr to me, and gives a huge boost to formidability to a 19th level monk.
i think that is all i have. i don't normally get involved on the mythweavers forum, but i felt that you were getting bludgeoned unnecessarily by the meleers-can't-have-nice-toys crowd. plus, it was a cool enough class redux that i thought i should let you know i liked it.
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[Post 63]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Sep 29 '09 10:06pm
I've been trying to figure out a better layout for the bonus feats, but so far have found nothing suitable to my liking. I'll keep trying on it, though.
Death Punch could probably stand to use more uses/day, but it already is a massive improvement over the 1/week from before (21 times as often at 20th and scaling into epic). It might happen, but the point of this class isn't really to kill things in a single hit. They have the ability, which is nice, but it's not necessary. I may change it to being 1/4 monk levels per day (round down) (so 2 more uses at 20th).
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[Post 64]
Author : stycotl
Date : Sep 30 '09 5:20am
I've been trying to figure out a better layout for the bonus feats, but so far have found nothing suitable to my liking. I'll keep trying on it, though.
Death Punch could probably stand to use more uses/day, but it already is a massive improvement over the 1/week from before (21 times as often at 20th and scaling into epic). It might happen, but the point of this class isn't really to kill things in a single hit. They have the ability, which is nice, but it's not necessary. I may change it to being 1/4 monk levels per day (round down) (so 2 more uses at 20th).
that would be well on its way to much better. you mention that it is already much better than the 1/week canon ability. that is true, but only because 1/week is pointless and underpowered. 1/week vs any high level spell (death effects start to come in, what, around 6th level?), so 4/day for a wizard, 7/day for a sorcerer or something like that. and those are only mid-to-high level spells.
i am pretty sure that you could either up the power level of the effect and give it 3 uses a day, or keep it where it is and give it lots of uses per day.
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[Post 65]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Sep 30 '09 3:14pm
i am pretty sure that you could either up the power level of the effect and give it 3 uses a day, or keep it where it is and give it lots of uses per day.
How do you up the power of death?
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[Post 66]
Author : Stam
Date : Sep 30 '09 3:46pm
Higher save DC, and/or some effect upon a fail? Such as Slowed or Stunned or something for 1 round even upon a successful save? This'd turn it into a "Save and die, or suck" effect.
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[Post 67]
Author : Hyudra
Date : Sep 30 '09 5:01pm
How do you up the power of death?
"Targets slain by death punch have their soul chakra crushed, and are unable to be resurrected for 1 day. (Week at 16th, month at 17th, year at 18th, decade at 19th, century at 20th)."
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[Post 68]
Author : Stam
Date : Sep 30 '09 5:22pm
If you're going to do that, at 20th have it act like a disintegrate spell and turn them into a pile of dust? :)
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[Post 69]
Author : Hyudra
Date : Sep 30 '09 7:25pm
I like my way better. DMs always have the recurring bad guy show up even if he's been disintegrated. If a player's capstone power specifically says "Bad guy has to suffer in hell for 100 years", it's hard for a DM to get around that. As a class feature it holds more weight than a spell description.
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[Post 70]
Author : Stam
Date : Sep 30 '09 8:06pm
*concedes the point*
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[Post 71]
Author : Sithobi1
Date : Oct 1 '09 5:53am
I think a century is a little long... It can easily ruin a DM's plans, since PCs will have died in that time span. I'd go for week at 17th, year at 20th.
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[Post 72]
Author : Krazddndfreek
Date : Oct 9 '09 8:05am
I would just avoid deader than dead with class features altogether, personally. For the same reasons stated above.
Also, shouldn't it say, Wis instead of Dex there?
At 10th level, a Monk's Unarmed Strike is treated as a two-handed weapon for these purposes (adding 1-1/2* Dexterity modifier to damage, if the Monk chooses to use Dex instead of Str).
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[Post 73]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Oct 9 '09 4:58pm
I would just avoid deader than dead with class features altogether, personally. For the same reasons stated above.
Also, shouldn't it say, Wis instead of Dex there?
It did originally but everyone complained that it didn't really make sense. I changed it to Dex and it really does make more sense that way. Notice that the entire Martial Arts ability uses Dex.
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[Post 74]
Author : warbacon
Date : Oct 14 '09 1:25am
I like this. First of all, because I've always wanted to see the Monk be useful, but mostly because it follows my personal view of the Monk as a fast-acting rear-line disabler. The kind of guy who runs, jumps, and tumbles past the front lines and ends up harassing the support characters in the rear.
To that end, have you looked at re-flavoring some of the psionic feats to match your new Monk? Ones I find particularly appropriate: Up The Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls), Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicFist), Greater Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterPsionicFist), Unavoidable Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#unavoidableStrike). Honestly, those sound a lot more like a cinematic monk, and are probably a lot more useful.
Personally, I like using WIS for Martial Arts rather than DEX, but that's just me. Makes it seem like your knack for hitting people is because of your timing and understanding of the world around you more than anything else. Maybe either DEX or WIS?
I'd like to see a way to deal damage + throw / push an enemy away a few squares, but I'm not sure how to flesh this out right now.
I'd recommend using 3d6 for level 20 UA damage, rather than 2d10. I've just always preferred the distribution, and it makes it MUCH easier to compare to say, a blaster mage or other DPS types.
Have you thought of having a ki pool, much like a Factotum has an Inspiration pool? Maybe 1 point per level, per encounter? You could spend, say, 1 point per +1 bonus to attack, 1 point for a +1d6 damage bonus, 1 for DR 5/- until your next action (broken by Disrupting Blow, obviously), etc. Or maybe even, to fix the "save or die" problem, you can spend 12 or so to reroll a 1 on a saving throw.
But you really have to do something that makes this class worth staying in past level 2. The mettle + evasion combo is just stupidly tempting.
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[Post 75]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Dec 19 '10 4:13am
Altered the location of some abilities in the first few levels. (Mettle moved to 4th level, Spring Attack and Improved Trip moved to 8th). Any more suggestions? I'm trying to make it a little less front-loaded.
Disrupting Blow now uses an Attack of Opportunity for the round, but still can be used under the same circumstances. The second interruption does not require a second AoO to be spent.
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[Post 76]
Author : shiroken
Date : Apr 28 '11 9:27pm
Fix? This seems more broken than anything... A class that grants fast healing and DR/epic?
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[Post 77]
Author : Solo
Date : Apr 28 '11 9:56pm
Fix? This seems more broken than anything... A class that grants fast healing and DR/epic?
Your definition of broken must be broken.
If you want, you can make an example character with this monk fix and we can test it out against a few opponents to determine how "broken" it is.
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[Post 78]
Author : docmartin
Date : Apr 28 '11 10:03pm
Ooooh.. A same game test. I'm interested in seeing it done.
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[Post 79]
Author : shiroken
Date : Apr 28 '11 10:18pm
Too busy to do it myself. My definition of broken in this case is "way the **** overpowered." This class has DR 15/epic by level 20. Compare to the barbarian's DR 5/-. Yes the barbarian takes 5 off of all damage, but I'd say that only evens out to 10/material, and epic is relatively rare since many games never even reach that point, not to mention story-wise its supposed to be quite rare so it's really only not /- on a technicality. Add in the fast healing, full BAB, and defense bonus (it isn't mentioned in the fix so I assume it's kept in) and you've already got a class that's well over the power of every other class.
From what I've noticed people saying, and experienced myself the couple of times I've played a monk, monk's are one of the most OP'd characters already - arguably, second only to spellcasters.
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[Post 80]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Apr 28 '11 10:51pm
Monks are horiffically weak normally. Your average Rogue is far more useful and powerful than all but the most pimped out Monks. Bards outshine them constantly. In fact, the majority of classes are far more potent than the Monk. yes, the monk has a lot of class features. Unfortunately, any of them that are even semi-decent fight each other (speed boost and Flurry of Blows, for example.; you can't use them together).
Fast Healing is just free, out of combat healing in practice. If you're lucky, it might buy you an extra round of life (once it starts applying in-combat). Out of combat, Fast healing 1 and Fast healing 50 are identical. Either way, you're fully healed by the time the next fight rolls around.
The DR/Epic comes at the very end of the class. The prior DR10/magic was 100% useless. If any DR could apply to an enemy's attacks at that point, they will overcome DR/Magic. However, level 20 is when enemies start showing up that can penetrate DR/Epic, albeit they are still rare. More importantly, it gives the Monk, who has no other way of doing so, the ability to penetrate DR/Epic himself. Comparing it to the Barbarian's DR is a joke, that hardly mkes a difference anyway (the 30 damage it shaves off from a dragon attacking is pretty insignificant compared to the 200 or so he just took)
Full BAB is really nothing. Give a Wizard or a Bard full BAB and maybe they'll bat an eye. The fact is, the Monk was designed as a melee class, but had no way of actually hitting anything, since they lacked a magic weapon and only had medium BAB (typically a -10 to hit compared to your average fighter, who still has challenges hitting his foes). Giving the Monk full BAB gave him at least a chance to hit his targets (he's still behind in that he doesn't have a magic weapon)
Despite all of this, the Monk, when he did hit, did very little damage. Rather than try and change that, I decided to give the Monk another way to contribute in combat (the special strikes).
I assure you, this is nowhere near broken.
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[Post 81]
Author : docmartin
Date : Apr 28 '11 11:31pm
From what I've noticed people saying, and experienced myself the couple of times I've played a monk, monk's are one of the most OP'd characters already - arguably, second only to spellcasters.
When someone posts something this ridiculous, it signifies one of two things. A complete lack of understanding of the game, or someone attempting to troll. Which is it?
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[Post 82]
Author : Solo
Date : Apr 29 '11 2:46am
From what I've noticed people saying, and experienced myself the couple of times I've played a monk, monk's are one of the most OP'd characters already - arguably, second only to spellcasters.
A 3.5 Barbarian will bend a monk over her knee and spank him silly in a comparison of class power.
You're welcome for the imagery.
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[Post 83]
Author : BlueShaine
Date : Apr 29 '11 3:04am
Just glad you're letting the imagery be kind, Solo.
If we follow Solo's guide for Bane, the Barbarian would have their cohort Bard use that tale to sing to all the countryside of the monk's embarrassment.
I do like the fix, Snake. Good work on it.
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[Post 84]
Author : docmartin
Date : Apr 29 '11 3:35am
Indeed. If it were a Wizard, there would be tentacles. Evard's Black Tentacles.
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[Post 85]
Author : Mook_Fodder
Date : Apr 29 '11 7:30am
I need to read this more carefully to have any real criticisms, but for now:
Staggeringing Blow (Ex): At 15th level, a Monk can stirke a foe's...
These spelling errors are located after the table. After a cursory glance though, the changes are looking pretty nice. the +1BAB/level is obviously needed, and removing Str dependency is a beautiful touch.
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[Post 86]
Author : shiroken
Date : Apr 29 '11 2:56pm
When someone posts something this ridiculous, it signifies one of two things. A complete lack of understanding of the game, or someone attempting to troll. Which is it?
Troll? What do you mean?
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[Post 87]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Apr 29 '11 3:40pm
I need to read this more carefully to have any real criticisms, but for now:
These spelling errors are located after the table. After a cursory glance though, the changes are looking pretty nice. the +1BAB/level is obviously needed, and removing Str dependency is a beautiful touch.
Fixed! Thanks for catching them.
And yes, removing Str dependency was absolutely necessary. The Paladin needs a simiar re-hash in that department (I always houserule their spellcasting to be Charism-based so Wisdom isn't a big sink).
@shiroken: Trolls are people who are intentionally difficult on the internet (not a perfect definition, but it's close enough). As was pointed out, anyone who says the base Monk is a very powerful class either has very little idea as to how the game works or is trolling.
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[Post 88]
Author : shiroken
Date : Apr 29 '11 3:59pm
Ah, I see. Well, I do admit to only having played the monk once, and not for a very long time at that. I still think this is a little overpowered, but maybe I'll test it out at some point anyway... *shrug* Some plans look brilliant on paper and suck in execution, so maybe there's the reverse of that...
I do already agree with the DR 10/magic being useless at 20th level since magic items become very common by 6th and 7th level at the latest, and Dex-based attacks but that could be mitigated by taking Weapon Finesse - if a rogue has to take, I think a monk should, too. On a similar note, the monk's lack of weapons can be countered by throwing on a pair of gauntlets. It allows the monk to deal his regular unarmed damage and receive weapon abilities and enhancement bonuses. I believe MIC has some sort of bracer or amulet that allows a monk's fist to be enchanted, too. Combined with the increased damage by level and a monk deals just as much damage as an average fighter of the same level (and Str).
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[Post 89]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Apr 29 '11 4:09pm
Not quite true on the gauntlets. Both the FAQ and The Sage have ruled that when wearing a gauntlet, a Monk deals the Gauntlet's damage. It's rediculously stupid, but it actually fits with the rules. Actually giving the Monk an enhancement bonus is reserved for the Amulet of Mighty Fists (which is stupidly overpriced at 3* the normal cost for a weapon and you can't get weapon qualities put on) and the Necklace ofNatural Attacks in Savage Species (which is 3.0 and has a lot of really wonky stuff in it, so it's usually banned).
The thing with effectively giving them Weapon Finesse for free is that it means the Monk now only has to boost 3 ability scores instead of 4 to remain effective in combat (and only 4 instead of 5 for outside combat). While a Rogue just wants Weapon Finesse, the majority of their damage comes from Senak Attack. They just need to hit. A Monk, however, needs to hit and has no additional damage source, so damage needed to come from the same stat as to-hit. Plus, just changing it over from Str to Dex fits the image a lot better. No reason to impose a feat tax just to fit a basic image.
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[Post 90]
Author : leons1701
Date : Apr 29 '11 4:30pm
Quite right. Hitting isn't enough, you need damage as well. Getting a stat other than STR to damage can be done in 3.5, but it's not easy and raises the feat tax even higher. I would point out that if you're already using a homebrewed version of the monk, there's no reason not to fix either Amulet of Mighty Fists or the gauntlet rule while you're at it. Simplest fix for AMF is to drop the cost to you could make an argument for an increased cost, probably 1.5 times or even double since it's effectively enchanting two weapons, but I'm not sure I'd bother the magic weapon and allow weapon qualities.
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[Post 91]
Author : shiroken
Date : Apr 29 '11 4:44pm
What Sage is this? Most DMs I'm sure would bend the rules to let a monk player do one of those, though. Especially since the gauntlet thing makes no logical sense. Plus, it could easily be said that since the gauntlets description says "A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack," and rather than Light Melee Weapons it is under the Unarmed Attack heading one could easily say that the rules allow it.
I guess you've convinced me on the Weapon Finesse argument, though...
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[Post 92]
Author : DrMorganes
Date : Apr 29 '11 4:49pm
The Sage is one of the game's developers who chimes in with his opinion on various rules questions. He's typically considered more of an expert opinion than so-called "customer service", which has been known to give rulings which flatly contradict both themselves and existing rules.
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[Post 93]
Author : Ryfte
Date : Apr 29 '11 4:51pm
I believe that this rebuild of the class is much more powerful than the officially published monk. Everyone can agree with that. There really isn't a question as to the viability of actually playing a monk as it was officially written, it simply isn't. However, if one is to implement this "fix" for the monk then at the same time you need to rewrite every core melee class that will be in the same game. That is to say, if you're going to maintain balance across the board you really shouldn't admit this modified monk in without performing similar treatment for anyone submitting similarly underpowered base classes. *shrug*
My $.02 ;)
Edit: Oh, and Snakeman... a rogue really isn't any better than a monk due to the fact that 90% of it's abilities are completely conditional and it's only real combat ability (sneak attack) is negated by well over 3/4 of the most common monsters and an extremely common armor enchantment. *shrug*
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[Post 94]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Apr 29 '11 4:57pm
The Sage is one of the game's developers who chimes in with his opinion on various rules questions. He's typically considered more of an expert opinion than so-called "customer service", which has been known to give rulings which flatly contradict both themselves and existing rules.
To be fair, The Sage has been far more consistent than Customer Service has been.
@Ryfte: While I agree that all of the Core melee classes need similar rebuilds (I'm working on Paladin next), I disagree that they all should have said fixes for this Monk fix to be used. Yes, this fix is not suitable for a core-only game (for one thing, it involves feats and action types that are not in core), but even just adding the Complete series, PHB2, and the Expanded Psionics handbook, this fix fits right in power-wise.
Of course, Barbarian neds the least tweaking in my view. It's pretty suitable where it is.
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[Post 95]
Author : leons1701
Date : Apr 29 '11 5:07pm
@Ryfte: While I agree that all of the Core melee classes need similar rebuilds (I'm working on Paladin next), I disagree that they all should have said fixes for this Monk fix to be used. Yes, this fix is not suitable for a core-only game (for one thing, it involves feats and action types that are not in core), but even just adding the Complete series, PHB2, and the Expanded Psionics handbook, this fix fits right in power-wise.
Of course, Barbarian neds the least tweaking in my view. It's pretty suitable where it is.
I'd agree. Paladin and Monk are in the biggest need of fixing, with Fighter running a close third. Ranger next, then Barbarian and Rogue are about tied, with their exact usefulness depending heavily on the type of game. Just because 3/4 of the creatures in the monster manual are immune to sneak attack doesn't mean that it will be useless 3/4 of the time. Unless your "game" consists of encountering each creature in alphabetical order or some such.
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[Post 96]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Apr 29 '11 5:17pm
Of those types immune to sneak attack, only Undead and Constructs have more than a handful of monsters. I think there have been fewer than 30 oozes printed across all of 3.5, for example. Plants and Elementals are the third and fourth most common, but are rarely going to be common enemies (Undead and Constructs have items you can get to sneak attack them, constructs even in core!)
That said, I can say right now that my first changes to the paladin are changing Smite Evil to be /encounter instead of /day and the spellcasting to be Charisma-based. Also giving them actual class features at later levels.
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[Post 97]
Author : shiroken
Date : Apr 29 '11 5:34pm
A class that really needs a fix is PHB2's beguiler. Geez, and I thought the bard was bad. The beguiler has poor BAB, only one good save, and one of the narrowest and crappiest spell selections ever. Its not hard to actually get more spells/day than your class' spell list - not just the personal one. Oh and then there's the advanced learning class feature which lets you pick spells from other class lists but only if they are Illusions or Enchantments - the two schools from which the beguiler already has almost every spell. I frequently need to open three or four other books just to find a decent spell to choose. That class I only needed to play once...
The beguiler is completely useless in battle, and only barely useful out of battle.
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[Post 98]
Author : Solo
Date : Apr 29 '11 5:36pm
I think what he is saying is intentional. By which I mean, the words he chooses are deliberate.
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[Post 99]
Author : docmartin
Date : Apr 29 '11 5:47pm
He be trollin'.
Buddy's been on here since 08, and claims to not know what a troll is. He be trollin'
Buddy is claiming the monk is overpowered. He be trollin'.
Buddy saying the Beguiler is horribly weak. He be trollin'.
Anybody have an alchemist's fire on them?
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[Post 100]
Author : shiroken
Date : Apr 29 '11 5:52pm
@Solo: Well what else would my words be? It's not like I'm high or insane.
@docmartin: I've been on MW since '08, but only for RPing. I'm going anyway. I think everyone's said as much as can be usefully said anyway. Neither party will be convinced any further.
Also, the beguiler is weak, and I wouldn't have mentioned it save for the fact that others were suggesting other classes to fix. I figured I throw in my two cents, as well.
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[Post 101]
Author : Solo
Date : Apr 29 '11 5:54pm
@Solo: Well what else would my words be? It's not like I'm high or insane.
That's exactly what a stoned psychopath would say!
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[Post 102]
Author : docmartin
Date : Apr 29 '11 5:56pm
Other than the fact that they are Social Skill MASTERS, have an excellent spell list, and have UMD as a class skill?
Edit: No to mention that they can also be trap-monkies.
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[Post 103]
Author : Solo
Date : Apr 29 '11 5:59pm
Excellent spell list? They only have illusions and enchantments. What possible use could there be for spells that deceive the senses and cloud the mind of the enemy, either on the battlefield or off of it?
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[Post 104]
Author : docmartin
Date : Apr 29 '11 6:01pm
Excellent spell list? They only have illusions and enchantments. What possible use could there be for spells that deceive the senses and cloud the mind of the enemy, either on the battlefield or off of it?
Lol. True. It is much more effective to have Fireballs and Lightning bolts on your spell list, and to prepare every slot with those tasty damage dealing spells. :P
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[Post 105]
Author : Solo
Date : Apr 29 '11 6:07pm
At least those spells have a measureable effect. I mean, you can see the numbers, and numbers don't lie! What numbers come up when you use Silent Image to create a fake wall for your party to hide behind as an enemy patrol comes along? Nothing, that's what!
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[Post 106]
Author : docmartin
Date : Apr 29 '11 6:13pm
Exactly. How is a Silent Image going to help you against THIS!?
http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/129045137384373916.jpg
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[Post 107]
Author : leons1701
Date : Apr 29 '11 7:47pm
That may be the single most frightening thing I've ever seen on this site.
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[Post 108]
Author : CattyNebulart
Date : May 13 '12 10:37pm
Mettle is basically evasion for Fortitude/Will effects, but it also works on Fort/Will Partial as well as Fort/Will half. To my knowledge, there is no Improved Mettle
There is but it is exceedingly rare. I think it only shows up in epic classes.
---
Rambling comments on the actual class;
For fast healing you might as well give fast healing equal to monk level or half monk level, that makes it less bursty in the progression.
You might want to make the monk speed bonus not an enhancement bonus, that mostly helps in the early levels where cheap speed boosting items will make you faster than the monk but they wouldn't stack with the monk's movement.
Also listing everything in the table makes it easier to read, rather than having a note at the end about what was removed. As far as I can see the only things missing that carry over from the old monk class are slow fall, still mind and the AC bonus. A lot of monk fixes replace slow-fall with a fly speed which is probably a good idea, especially as the monk otherwise has issues with flying opponents. Unlike everyone else he has no long range spells and no bow. A sling works, but has a much more limited range.
Also which proper wuxia monk can't walk on water?
On the power-curve, in a initial reading it seems it starts of reasonably strong, keeping pace with martial adepts until level 12 or so. Before then the monk had limited options but his class features had synergy that meant that he does that one thing very well. When you get into the teens though his options widen but his original options don't really become much stronger.
Also for a tier 3 the monk can do very little out of combat, the ranger has track, spells and abilities that make him a better scout, the martial adepts have powers that can be used for utility purposes, etc. The monk can move fast. Give him something to do out of combat, even if it is just acupuncture to give fast healing to the party outside of combat. It doesn't need to be much, and it doesn't need to be strong but there should be something.
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[Post 109]
Author : Tsunami1768
Date : Oct 13 '14 11:17pm
honestly your base attack is a bit to high, monks have alot of good abilities they gain for basically each level, the bab you have should be abit lower to reflect their need for focus on their abilities, much like how it is expressed in the normal monk stats.
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[Post 110]
Author : snakeman830
Date : Oct 14 '14 12:45am
honestly your base attack is a bit to high, monks have alot of good abilities they gain for basically each level, the bab you have should be abit lower to reflect their need for focus on their abilities, much like how it is expressed in the normal monk stats.
First off, wow, talk about thread necromancy. Not that I mind, really, just...wow.
Second, I don't think it really is out of line. Monks do need to hit with their attacks to be effective, and both having one additional attack and an additional +5 bonus helps. Keep in mind that Monks have difficulty getting the same attack bonuses on their unarmed strikes as other characters due to the more difficult methods of getting enhancement bonuses and weapon qualities as well as being more dependent on multiple stats (needing to boost more makes it difficult to pump one to the same levels). Basically, Monks have enough working against their accuracy without having 5 lower BAB as well.
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[Post 111]
Author : cailano
Date : Oct 15 '14 7:50pm
I like it. Monks don't fit thematically in many games, but if the GM is going to allow them, I like this version. There's no real reason they should be as underpowered as they are, and some of these fixes give them more of a niche.
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