Remember, homosexuals, according to skeptic54768, you can be healed of your homosexual desires too!... Only that you can't, since there's nothing to cure and, even if there were, it's not possible to change your sexual orientation.

Remember, homosexuals, according to skeptic54768, you can be healed of your homosexual desires too!... Only that you can't, since there's nothing to cure and, even if there were, it's not possible to change your sexual orientation.

Found on AF.

I believe that some people have a very tough time with trying to keep sinning to a minimum. Judging by the fact that he had children, I would say it points towards more being a choice than being born with it.

I believe that you (or another poster) have said (in another thread) that straight men can have sex with other men and just imagine a woman in their head and they would be able to "get off" so to speak. But, this would prove it's a choice because you are saying that you can do it if you feel like it.

Neither scenario helps your viewpoint.

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Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

I believe that some people have a very tough time with trying to keep sinning to a minimum. Judging by the fact that he had children, I would say it points towards more being a choice than being born with it.

Could you personally choose to be homosexual if you wanted to?

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

I think it's probably possible for quite a number of homosexuals, especially when faced with great shame for their orientation (as we see with many religious), or those who face losing friends, family support, etc, by coming out to repress their true desires to some point. Enough to marry a member of the opposite sex (who they may love deeply, even if the love is more naturally expressed as platonic). They may well produce children because, face it, there are certain things which are just going to feel good even if your heart is not necessarily in it, and fantasy/imagination can be great tools.

Some of these people may even feel bonded enough to their spouses that they remain faithful throughout the marriage. But there will always be some part of them which remains unfulfilled.

I can predict that Skeptic's answer will be something to the effect that child molesters also remain unfulfilled, but we don't let THEM run around sating their desires, but the slippery slope argument just doesn't work in this case, because we are not talking about behavior which damages anyone. The right for an adult to love, have physical relationships with and marry another consenting adult is something so basic that we take it for granted within the heterosexual world. But if you imagine that, for some reason, you were raised to believe that a heterosexual orientation was sinful, and the only accepted behavior was homosexual, and that the fate of your immortal soul depended on making the right "choice", maybe you could settle down with a member or the same sex and live a life of feigned satisfaction, but wouldn't the stress of it be very, very likely to lead to a breaking point somewhere down the line?

I believe that some people have a very tough time with trying to keep sinning to a minimum. Judging by the fact that he had children, I would say it points towards more being a choice than being born with it.

Which means he's likely somewhat bisexual. That's the only situation I can envision where someone could 'choose' whether to be attracted to men or to women - when they can be attracted to both (which is probably more frequent than most people assume). Then, and only then, is it anything resembling a choice.

Otherwise, it's like the 'choice' of trying to eat something unappetizing, or that you don't like. Sure, you can make yourself eat it, but not so that you'll enjoy it. For example, I detest the sight, smell, and taste of peanut butter. I can eat something that has peanut butter in it, as long as I can't smell or taste it (such as in a candy bar), but I would have to be very hungry to be willing to eat it otherwise. Whereas I love carrots and eat them all the time. The Christian attitude is pretty much like telling me that it's wrong to like carrots, and that I should eat peanut butter instead, just because women eat carrots and men eat peanut butter, and I'm sinning if I decide to eat carrots anyway[1]. Or telling someone who likes both that they should choose to eat one because it's wrong for them to eat both, and God will throw them into eternal fire if they do.

Quote from: skeptic54768

I believe that you (or another poster) have said (in another thread) that straight men can have sex with other men and just imagine a woman in their head and they would be able to "get off" so to speak. But, this would prove it's a choice because you are saying that you can do it if you feel like it.

So what, a gay man should imagine that he's actually having sex with another man in order to get aroused enough to have sex with a woman? Do you realize just how twisted calling that a 'choice' is? So in order to avoid the 'sin' of homosexuality, you have to commit the 'sin' of infidelity - of imagining someone else in the place of your actual partner, and you're still committing the 'sin' of homosexuality in order to do it. Brilliant thinking there, skeptic.

Quote from: skeptic54768

Neither scenario helps your viewpoint.

So what? They do quite the number on the Christian viewpoint. Yes, let's tell gay men that all they have to do is imagine having sex with a man so they can do what Christians want them to do. Sure, it means deceiving and being unfaithful to their partner and imagining that they're really having sex with men anyway. but hey, God won't care as long as it's all in the mind. And let's terrify those who don't buy into this reasoning by telling them that if they don't do as you say, God will roast them in eternal fire after they die.

Sorry, not buying it. You can, if you want, but considering that you think the world is full of demons trying to tempt you away from your god, you'll have to excuse me for feeling pity towards you.

I was going to write something very similar regarding food choices, but couldn't figure out how to word it where it wouldn't come off as somewhat flippant or trivializing of the issue. Thanks for saving me the trouble You stated what I was trying to communicate better than I would have.

I think it's probably possible for quite a number of homosexuals, especially when faced with great shame for their orientation (as we see with many religious), or those who face losing friends, family support, etc, by coming out to repress their true desires to some point. Enough to marry a member of the opposite sex (who they may love deeply, even if the love is more naturally expressed as platonic). They may well produce children because, face it, there are certain things which are just going to feel good even if your heart is not necessarily in it, and fantasy/imagination can be great tools.

Some of these people may even feel bonded enough to their spouses that they remain faithful throughout the marriage. But there will always be some part of them which remains unfulfilled.

I can predict that Skeptic's answer will be something to the effect that child molesters also remain unfulfilled, but we don't let THEM run around sating their desires, but the slippery slope argument just doesn't work in this case, because we are not talking about behavior which damages anyone. The right for an adult to love, have physical relationships with and marry another consenting adult is something so basic that we take it for granted within the heterosexual world. But if you imagine that, for some reason, you were raised to believe that a heterosexual orientation was sinful, and the only accepted behavior was homosexual, and that the fate of your immortal soul depended on making the right "choice", maybe you could settle down with a member or the same sex and live a life of feigned satisfaction, but wouldn't the stress of it be very, very likely to lead to a breaking point somewhere down the line?

You may say that when somebody rapes somebody, then they are damaging someone. But suppose a 14 year old girl has a crush on some older guy who is 30 years old. (We know things like this happen) Now, suppose the 30 year old acted on that and decided to have sex with the 14 year old. I am sure the girl would be thrilled and love it. So, who is that damaging?

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Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Sorry, not buying it. You can, if you want, but considering that you think the world is full of demons trying to tempt you away from your god, you'll have to excuse me for feeling pity towards you.

You can laugh but look at all the ads on the internet. Some of them are just disgusting. Where do people get these ideas? Themselves? Then why doesn't everyone do it?

What about drugs? Why do some people need heroin every day? Because they are missing God form their lives and they try to fill that void with drugs, but it doesn't work. That's why so many of them quit the drugs after reading the Bible and becoming Christian. They realize Christ is all they need.

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Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

I think it's probably possible for quite a number of homosexuals, especially when faced with great shame for their orientation (as we see with many religious), or those who face losing friends, family support, etc, by coming out to repress their true desires to some point. Enough to marry a member of the opposite sex (who they may love deeply, even if the love is more naturally expressed as platonic). They may well produce children because, face it, there are certain things which are just going to feel good even if your heart is not necessarily in it, and fantasy/imagination can be great tools.

Some of these people may even feel bonded enough to their spouses that they remain faithful throughout the marriage. But there will always be some part of them which remains unfulfilled.

I can predict that Skeptic's answer will be something to the effect that child molesters also remain unfulfilled, but we don't let THEM run around sating their desires, but the slippery slope argument just doesn't work in this case, because we are not talking about behavior which damages anyone. The right for an adult to love, have physical relationships with and marry another consenting adult is something so basic that we take it for granted within the heterosexual world. But if you imagine that, for some reason, you were raised to believe that a heterosexual orientation was sinful, and the only accepted behavior was homosexual, and that the fate of your immortal soul depended on making the right "choice", maybe you could settle down with a member or the same sex and live a life of feigned satisfaction, but wouldn't the stress of it be very, very likely to lead to a breaking point somewhere down the line?

You may say that when somebody rapes somebody, then they are damaging someone. But suppose a 14 year old girl has a crush on some older guy who is 30 years old. (We know things like this happen) Now, suppose the 30 year old acted on that and decided to have sex with the 14 year old. I am sure the girl would be thrilled and love it. So, who is that damaging?

The specific scenario you have proposed here is a bit of a difficult one as there can, indeed, be instances where such a relationship can end up working. A couple of hundred years ago it would not have been unusual to see marriages between people of these ages. Some of which might have turned into lifelong love stories, and others which no doubt resulted in young girls feeling trapped, possibly abused, and often resentful and depressed in their marriage.

In this day and age, we have learned much about the way the mind matures, and we know that very, very few teens of that age are in a place, mentally, where they can make wise decisions in such matters, so, while they might be perfectly happy to enter into a relationship with an older man, we have to, as a society, step in and enforce consequences. If it's really meant to be a love story for the ages, they can wait a few years. In the meantime, we hope to save children from decisions which it is almost certain they will regret, and which could easily leave them with children they have no means or preparation to deal with.

Sorry, not buying it. You can, if you want, but considering that you think the world is full of demons trying to tempt you away from your god, you'll have to excuse me for feeling pity towards you.

You can laugh but look at all the ads on the internet. Some of them are just disgusting. Where do people get these ideas? Themselves? Then why doesn't everyone do it?

What about drugs? Why do some people need heroin every day? Because they are missing God form their lives and they try to fill that void with drugs, but it doesn't work. That's why so many of them quit the drugs after reading the Bible and becoming Christian. They realize Christ is all they need.

I know you would rather think that if everyone became Christians and started praying and going to church, people would be able to resist the demons and we would have fewer social problems. But the numbers don't bear that out. People are generally good, or societies would not be able to function. Most people don't commit violent crimes. Period. Regardless of religion or lack thereof.

Of those who do commit violent crimes, most of them are young male idiots. (Demons must really be attracted to young guys--maybe they are gay?) Guys eventually grow out of the young and idiot parts and most stop acting up. Again, regardless of religion or lack thereof. That is what the statistics show.[1]

As for the disgusting internet ads, etc, you do realize that the biggest consumers of internet naughtiness are the bible belt states, don't you? The more churchgoing and praying there is in a state, the higher the rates of all kinds of dysfunction--family breakup[2], poverty, low levels of education, violence, unemployment, people on welfare, disability and food stamps. Those demons must be really confused.

Police departments know that the meth labs and human trafficking rings that exploit young immigrant boys and girls are found where the most conservative religious folks live. The same holds around the world, where the least religious places have the fewest social problems, lowest crime, etc. That doesn't mean that religious people are bad, but is does imply that religion is not fixing the problems.

The areas of the country most successful economically and socially, with highest levels of education and employment are also the places that are nicest to gay people. A high percentage of those evil, openly sinning gay couples settling down and adopting kids seems to bless a community with good-paying jobs, nice, safe neighborhoods and award-winning universities. The gay-friendly places are generating the taxes to support the impoverished, troubled, anti-gay communities of the bible belt. Go figure.

There may be some genetic tendencies that make drugs more compelling to some people than others. And there are circumstances that make many people need to mute reality with chemicals-- severe abuse, homelessness, prison. Some people take drugs when given the opportunity, while others don't.[3]Of the people who take drugs, some become addicted and others don't. It is still a mystery.

People quit drugs after reading the Quran and becoming Muslim. I know of many folks who joined the Nation of Islam in prison and went straight, never committing crimes, drinking or using drugs again. (Hurray Minister Farrakhan.)

People also quit drugs after going through a rehab program or counseling with no religious connotations at all. And many, many people never use drugs to begin with, somehow coping quite happily with the lack of the Christian, Muslim Hindu or Sikh gods in their lives.

I recently talked to a woman who works with homeless youth. She said that when the economy is good, the only kids on the street are there due to serious abuse in the home, and due to being kicked out by religious parents for being gay or lesbian. Nice.

I believe so, yes. This would be the equivalent of asking, "Could you personally choose to steal something?" The answer would be yes. I highly doubt stealing is something you are born with.

So you should try it for a while, if it's so easy to switch back and fourth. You wouldn't have to actually participate in homosexual sex, just make up your mind that for the next 2 days or so you are going to be attracted to people of the same sex. Actually make a sincere effort to find people of the opposite sex attractive.

If you are a Christian you should have no problem doing this, since you can always ask for forgiveness after the trial period is over.

If you are able to be seriously attracted to someone of the opposite sex during that time then I submit that there are two possibilities: 1) you are actually homosexual or bisexual and don't know it, but have temporarily removed a strictly mental cultural/religious obstruction to your sexual preferences or 2) that you really can just decide to be homosexual and then turn it off, as you suggest.

It seems to me that the first case is far more likely to be true, since we've seen plenty of failures of homophobic people to cure themselves of their homosexual tendencies. The OP being a perfect case in point.

If you are not able to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex then it isn't something you can choose, either because you can't remove the mental barriers erected by your culture/religion or because you simply aren't homosexual.

Aside from all of this, the fact that homosexuality is such an incredibly powerful temptation to avoid ought to be a concern for any homophobic Christian. If there exists a temptation so incredibly powerful that even people who have invested their entire lives in opposition to homosexuality succumb to it, why would God torture people like that? It is, for all intents and purposes, so powerful that, for these people, it cannot be avoided. There is, for all practical purposes, no choice for them in this matter. It is so powerful that they will throw away careers, family and friends for it, because the alternative is impossible for them.

So you should try it for a while, if it's so easy to switch back and fourth. You wouldn't have to actually participate in homosexual sex, just make up your mind that for the next 2 days or so you are going to be attracted to people of the same sex. Actually make a sincere effort to find people of the opposite sex attractive.

I know you mean well, but studies have shown that those who are most homophobic (like skeptic54768) tend to be homosexuals themselves (like skeptic54768), so he would be able to do it easily.

You can laugh but look at all the ads on the internet. Some of them are just disgusting. Where do people get these ideas? Themselves? Then why doesn't everyone do it?

Because not everyone is interested in that sort of thing. It certainly isn't this inane nonsense of "demons!" as you claim, like a broken record. It's certainly a convenient excuse - blame 'demons' for the world's ills, as if humans would be sweetness and light if it weren't for them and their temptations, instead of bothering to try to understand what's really going on - but an excuse is all it is and all it will ever be. Blaming the 'demons' doesn't do a thing to fix the actual problems, which I suspect suits religions like yours just fine. Wouldn't do to have the actual problems go away, after all; why waste time getting rid of the cause when you can milk the symptoms for additional worshipers?

Quote from: skeptic54768

What about drugs? Why do some people need heroin every day? Because they are missing God form their lives and they try to fill that void with drugs, but it doesn't work. That's why so many of them quit the drugs after reading the Bible and becoming Christian. They realize Christ is all they need.

I'm guessing you've never studied drug addiction, or addictive/obsessive behavior in general, otherwise you'd not be saying things like this. Drug addiction happens primarily because of physiological changes that drugs cause in the body and brain, although habit and ritual are a significant part of the addiction process; therefore, addictions can sometimes be derailed by substituting unrelated rituals (including religious ones). It doesn't do a thing for the physiological addiction, which is why people have to be careful not to relapse. There's a saying that a smoker who quits is one cigarette away from a full relapse, and most addictive drugs work in a similar way.

If a person can use a preexisting religious belief to combat an addiction of some kind, then I'm all for it. I am, however, not happy at all with the idea of looking for converts among people who have fallen the farthest. That's too much like preying on someone's flaws, however well-meaning the goal might be. And I am adamantly against this disinformation that people only ever turn to drugs because they're missing God from their lives. I suppose that explains how actively religious people become addicted to things like prescription drug?

What about drugs? Why do some people need heroin every day? Because they are missing God form their lives and they try to fill that void with drugs, but it doesn't work. That's why so many of them quit the drugs after reading the Bible and becoming Christian. They realize Christ is all they need.

Your whole logic fail s when you take into consideration all the junkies and drunks who get sober without religion. You have the line of reasoning that is openly spoken about in AA/NA meetings - "searching for a higher power will clean you of your addiction". The Big Book of AA even has a chapter towards agnostics/atheists about how they cannot gain sobriety if they don't believe in a higher power, in your case YHWH.

For some people they gain sobriety without stepping foot into a Church. For me, I've been to my share of in-patient rehabs and many jail cells when I was strung out. Once rock bottom has been hit, like sitting in a jail cell where your bunkie can watch you pee and all of your possessions gone, reality sets in that addiction sucks. And it does. But there is no God required to gain sobriety.

A lot of drug counselors talk about avoiding people, places and things. Or, the people you used to use with, the places where you bought from or where you got high at, and the things that caused triggers. Aside from being honest about addiction, avoiding the people, places and things is the first step towards recovery. God and/or religion is just a crutch to fall back on.

And it helps. But it's not necessary. There are a few secular alternatives to religious-based sobriety groups, such as Secular Organization for Sobriety and Rational Recovery that are just as effective as AA/NA. In in-patient rehab God is never spoken about by the counselors. There are shuttles to churches and church services but they are only available as a courtesy for those who want to go to Church, but there is no requirement to attend.

Christ is not what a junkie/drunk needs. It's helpful, but it's only a crutch to lean on. What they need is to safely detox, learn about what causes them to use, avoid the people/places/things, and control their triggers. If they appear to quit after finding God it's only because they have surrounded themselves with others who have claimed to have found god in their lives

Your whole logic about them quiting when they find Christ, and that Christ is all they need is just not correct. They may quit after they have found religion or a higher power, but it's only because of what they've been told that there is this "higher power" out there, when there are thousands of former addicts who have not accepted Jesus, yet never want to go back to using.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 06:05:41 PM by Emily »

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"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

So you should try it for a while, if it's so easy to switch back and fourth. You wouldn't have to actually participate in homosexual sex, just make up your mind that for the next 2 days or so you are going to be attracted to people of the same sex. Actually make a sincere effort to find people of the opposite sex attractive.

I know you mean well, but studies have shown that those who are most homophobic (like skeptic54768) tend to be homosexuals themselves (like skeptic54768), so he would be able to do it easily.

What about drugs? Why do some people need heroin every day? Because they are missing God form their lives and they try to fill that void with drugs, but it doesn't work. That's why so many of them quit the drugs after reading the Bible and becoming Christian. They realize Christ is all they need.

There are a LOT of alcoholic and drug-addicted Christians. American prisons are full of them. I'm related to some.

I was able to quit a 12-year pack-and-a-half-a-day smoking addiction without one single prayer, no Bible, no church, none of that. All I needed was a supply of nicotine patches and my own determination to quit.