I thought we were interested in the coaxchbuilding itself, not so much to whom they belong? After all, as long as it is coachbuilding, instead of just a standard car with a fancy nameplate on it, hiding the fact that to all intent there is nothing coachbuild about it?

I thought we were interested in the coaxchbuilding itself, not so much to whom they belong?

But then we have to enlist almost all works manufacturing facilities of many many other brands. For the same reason we also rule out the 'standard' bodies by Jean Bugatti and for instance the various bodies by Talbot Lago's own coachbuilding department. We are especially interested in the companies who created coachworks on various chassis to their own or their client's vision and those who were not 'forced' to work with just one brand or owned by a single manufacturer.

I thought we were interested in the coaxchbuilding itself, not so much to whom they belong?

But then we have to enlist almost all works manufacturing facilities of many many other brands. For the same reason we also rule out the 'standard' bodies by Jean Bugatti and for instance the various bodies by Talbot Lago's own coachbuilding department. We are especially interested in the companies who created coachworks on various chassis to their own or their client's vision and those who were not 'forced' to work with just one brand or owned by a single manufacturer.

I guess the deciding factor should be if the works department would be willing to build entirely to the customer desire: Mercedes-Benz did, as did Bugatti. Fleetwood was less keen and so was Talbot-Lago. On the other hand: Walker La Grande was wholly own by the Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg group, H.J.Mulliner, Park Ward by Rolls Royce, and Park Ward long before that, so what is the difference there. Perhaps we should stipulate that it needs to be custom coach work that needs to be shown here...having said that, many cars in the Italian section are serial jobs which could be bought through the factory, off the rack...

Perhaps we should stipulate that it needs to be custom coach work that needs to be shown here...having said that, many cars in the Italian section are serial jobs which could be bought through the factory, off the rack...

Difficult matter, indeed. And a lot of grey areas... I think we should not be too strict on those grey areas, but we have to draw a line somewhere. We can't cover them all.

The few British coachbuilders owned by Rolls-Royce started as independents. Personally I am not interested in the most recent 'custom' cars where the illustrious names like Mulliner are degraded for marketing purposes to give the client a feeling that he bought something really really special, while all he got was just an upgraded interior with some new materials and some personal logos, chrome trim, a different mesh in the radiator maybe and special wheels and such. Once the coachbuilder is fully owned and fully controlled by the car manufacturer, then I loose interest.

Is for instance the Lamborghini Reventon a custom job based on the Murcielago and therefore a coachbuilt car? Not to me... It is just a limited edition specialty by the factory.

Almost all makes did in-house custom jobs to various levels, but they also provided rolling chassis to independents. And those interest me the most. I think it is also very important that an independent designer/coachbuilder not only made a living by doing the bodywork for a single manufacturer, but the specific company should also have been able to work with the chassis of other manufacturers. Then again, there were a lot of companies who specialized in one make, but it was their own choice and they seemed not to be controlled by that specific make. Sindelfingen was Mercedes alone and nothing more, which doesn't sound very independent to me. No free minds there...

Perhaps now is the time to admit that I introduced Pressed Steel, who produced many series of bodies for many car factories, sometimes designed by famous designers. These were often in many variations, partly re-coachbuilt, often finished as coachbuilt. But basically pressed steel...Owned by many owners culminating in British Leyland, but also supplier of Rolls Royce and Bentle y.

and we maybe should discuss Darl'mat and the 203s which came off the Sochaux production line just like any other before their (mis)treatment, which went a little further than "badge-engineering"... and the 402 Andreau ( 5 made? ) - Pourtout or Peugeot?

grill, bootlid, dashboard, spats, chrome even lowering all spanner work yes, but as i understand - and i dont have the french - a slight chop-top makes the sedan irreversibly darl'mat ...Rabotage de la carrosserie

Well, where does (optical) tuning end and where does coachbuilding begin? The Alfas, Fiats and such only partly modified (grille, lights, bumpers, vents, etc) by the many small Italian firms, are they to be considered coachbuild? How much modifications does a car need to become a coachbuild?

Take Zagato's Mustang for instance: viewtopic.php?f=68&t=985A modest nose job and a different rear window... Done by a famous coachbuilder... But what to think of it when it has been done by a much smaller company or even some unknown mechanic in a shed?

Well, where does (optical) tuning end and where does coachbuilding begin? The Alfas, Fiats and such only partly modified (grille, lights, bumpers, vents, etc) by the many small Italian firms, are they to be considered coachbuild? How much modifications does a car need to become a coachbuild?

These are what we call 'Elaborata'. While I agree that they are not really coachbuilt, they are still very interesting IMO and are part of the (Italian) coachbuilder heritage. I have only some knowledge about Italian cars so I wonder if Elaborata cars were only a typical Italian phenomenon or did it also exist in other countries?

To me it is just body tuning in all of its wonderful and ghastly variations. But there are many grey areas. So perhaps a way to resolve this to taken a generous vue on this and to allow anything anyone can justify to some extent, and if the moderators or amny contributors feel that we are getting off-topic it can be dealt with then and there?

Well, it is the same with Art. What is true Art and what's not? Who is to say?In the end the audience and the market decide. Something that isn't really appreciated in its own time can become very valuable in the future. Or expensive projects by famed designers can be overrated at first and its true value will be determined in time. We are part of the audience and maybe also a part of the market, so basically we can all together decide which company or specific car is te be considered a true coachbuilder or a special coachbuilt vehicle.

Other than in art, there are some technical limits which determines whether a car is a coachbuild or not.One of those restrictions is that it has to be road legal! And it should be based on an existing platform or series produced car. There are some more in the 'about coachbuilding' article on the website: http://www.coachbuild.com/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=69

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