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Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

Originally Posted by Lerxst

It would not be the worst thing we could do. Not at all. I don't know what you believe is happening here. This nation is in revolt of a government that the majority of the free world has identified as an oppressive, extremist, theocratic dictatorship that supports not only terrorism, but is pursuing nuclear weapons while at the same time proliferating the idea that Israel should or will be wiped off the map.

Arming this opposition movement would be far from the worst thing we could do. Are they only worth supporting if they can take their country back through peaceful means? Do we lose some political ammunition if these folks aren't getting gunned down with no practical way to fight back?

I don't know about you, but I want the Guardian Council and Ahmadinejad deposed, I want them struck from power, and if it takes funneling 50,000 assault rifles and 3,000 RPG's to them, well let me help load the trucks.

This isn't a romantic endeavor by the people of Iran, this is a bloody, violent uprising to three decades of dictatorial oppression. I never said we need to sponsor a "civil war." I said we should support this uprising. Arms and information are what these people need, not just good will and Twitter.

Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

Originally Posted by NDNdancer

It's more then just students backed by clerics this time. It's students, academics, professionals, workers, clerics..... and now, even some of the elite Guard and military, maybe. Those reports have been going around for a couple of days now, not just one, but several times and it makes sense and explains the use of the militia which I thought was odd.

It may not be enough to take over, but it is certainly enough to make the mullahs and Ayotollah take notice. If they lose the army, they've lost the power to effectively stop the protesters.

Sometimes revolutions take decades....

Maybe.... but its that "even maybe" you stated which makes all the difference.

Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

Originally Posted by Lerxst

It would not be the worst thing we could do. Not at all. I don't know what you believe is happening here. This nation is in revolt of a government that the majority of the free world has identified as an oppressive, extremist, theocratic dictatorship that supports not only terrorism, but is pursuing nuclear weapons while at the same time proliferating the idea that Israel should or will be wiped off the map.

It is the worst thing we could do. Iran is on the edge of rebellion and may very well already be there (when you distill all the Tweets and news reports, the quantity of hard facts is still frustratingly small, making any firm conclusions about the state of things in Iran tenuous at best), but it is Iranian people rising up against Iranian government. This is an Iranian matter entirely, and every foreign nation should park its happy ass on the sidelines.

What you are suggesting is directed regime change, and, as hostile and dangerous as the Islamic Republic could be as a nuclear state, the case for regime change just isn't there. Khameni is a lot of things, but a Shi'ite Saddam Hussein is not one of them.

Originally Posted by Lerxst

Arming this opposition movement would be far from the worst thing we could do. Are they only worth supporting if they can take their country back through peaceful means? Do we lose some political ammunition if these folks aren't getting gunned down with no practical way to fight back?

Arming the opposition would undermine their legitimacy as a native Iranian movement. Giving them US weapons and US material support, especially at this early stage, only makes the opposition another tool of the Great Satan; that's hardly a ringing endorsement for a revolution.

Originally Posted by Lerxst

I don't know about you, but I want the Guardian Council and Ahmadinejad deposed, I want them struck from power, and if it takes funneling 50,000 assault rifles and 3,000 RPG's to them, well let me help load the trucks.

Dude, stand down and try thinking for a change. You don't even know who the real players are or where they stand. Rafsanjani is more or less a moderate, but he's not the only mullah out there, and there's no guarantee him and Moussavi will be in control when the shooting is done. Not only do you not know if you'd be backing the winning horse, you don't even know if you'd be backing the right horse.

Originally Posted by Lerxst

This isn't a romantic endeavor by the people of Iran, this is a bloody, violent uprising to three decades of dictatorial oppression. I never said we need to sponsor a "civil war." I said we should support this uprising. Arms and information are what these people need, not just good will and Twitter.

Arming one side of a factional protest is exactly what sponsoring a civil war is. We don't need to be sending any arms to Iran, and the necessary information flow is out of Iran, not into it. The only message the protesters need to know is that the United States and the rest of the free world will be happy to shake their hand when they raise a flag of freedom over Tehran, and in the meantime, we wish them good luck and good hunting.

Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

Originally Posted by NDNdancer

Actually, BECAUSE of why he's been in trouble and WHO he is, a Grand Ayatollah and a leader in the Islamic revolution, he's beloved among the opposition and still has considerable power. Once you attain his level within the religious clergy, it's very hard to discount their words, unless they're deemed traitors or something else.

It would be like a Bishop in the Catholic Church who was an advocate for gay marriage, abortion and female priests..... lol.....

Well, maybe that goes to far, but I'm sure you get my drift...

Yeah I said as much.

The article propels him farther though.
It implies he is the 'senior' ayatollah in Iran (thats pretty much the headline as well as the article) when hes' not even senior anything..well maybe senior PITA

The senior cleric/ayatollah in Iran is Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei.

Since nobody has done this..here---

Irans government structure ..well its basics.

1. Supreme Leader/Ayatollah- appointed by Assembly of Experts. Contorls military police etc.
2. President-candidates approved by Guardian Council and Ayatollah.
2. Parliament-all candidates approved by Guardian Council.
3. Judiciary-head appointed by Ayatollah.
4. Expediency Council-mends disputes between Guardian Council and Parliament. Administrators basically. Appointed by Ayatollah.
5 Guardian Council. 12 member 6 appointed by ayatollah 6 appointed by legislator.
6. Assembly of Experts. All candidates approved by Guardian Council. It choses who will be ayatollah when one dies ..its other role is oversite but it has never publicly said anything abut either Ayatollah AND all its records etc are state secrets.

Alot of compartments come with facades of Democracy but all set up facilitate the Theocratic Dictatorship that is Iran.

Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

Originally Posted by Triad

Yeah I said as much.

The article propels him farther though.
It implies he is the 'senior' ayatollah in Iran (thats pretty much the headline as well as the article) when hes' not even senior anything..well maybe senior PITA

The senior cleric/ayatollah in Iran is Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei.

Ah, gotcha. He's senior in terms of time as an ayatollah, I believe. That really does mean something in their culture. It's like "elder" status in my community.

I am a Tiki Bar Tarte, do you really think you can Tango with me?!?
"A Nation is not defeated, until the hearts of it's women lay on the ground" Tsitisisis (Cheyenne) saying

Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

Would you agree that discussing what America should do at this juncture is fair game?

I have no interest in discussing what America should do, as I do not align myself with their interests. However, I think it's obvious that many that do align themselves as such are interested in having that discussion, and so have no reason to oppose it occurring; I just don't think it should be done in this thread, which so far has focused primarily, if not solely, on the developments in Iran.

I would much prefer these two discussions to be kept to separate threads.

[quote=Caine]

Originally Posted by Lerxst

And that kind of treatment is very good for them strategically. It humanizes both the riot police and rioters. I think it could lead to police defections. The GC is already ordering the arrest of numerous military leaders they believe are at risk of siding with the protesters.

There are reports that the military is refusing to fire on the protesters which means two things:
1. Explains the need for the militia, who are shooting and;
2. Explains why there hasn't been a swift, military response.

Do you have any sources for this?

"I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

Iranian doctors and nurses protested today at a major hospital in Iran:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyirzlCO-FA"]YouTube - 16 JUNE 2009 - Doctors and nurses are protesting in a major hospital in Tehran - Iran[/ame]

"I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

No sources yet. Can't confirm it but I'll keep trying.

# in azadi sq the killing was by baseej ONLY - military did not react - #Iranelectionabout 4 hours ago from web
# only baseej militia and Etellaat folowing orders - they cannot contain country without Army - #Iranelectionabout 4 hours ago from web
# unconfirmed - military has refused orders to shoot protesters - #Iranelectionabout 4 hours ago from web PersianKiwi

Hasn't been reported in the news but I'm sure this is accurate. The question is how widespread this phenomenon is.

"I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."