Ted Nelson: Z-man: It is a fairly widely-held opinion that Amar’e was the best player in the league in the second half of last year.

Also, it is a “widely held opinion” that the Knicks overpaid for Amare and will be disappointed… that doesn’t really mesh with your image of him as the best player in the whole league. Even had he gotten $20 mill per, no rational person would call LeBron overpaid.

Z-man: Mainly though, it is hard to lead if you haven’t played on successful teams.

Z-man: But doesn’t matter in this argument. Lee just doesn’t have the star power that Amar’e does.

I think you are overvaluing “presence” and disregarding my comment that there are different ways to lead as well as my comments about the state of this franchise this season v. the previous two seasons. You are right, though… clearly Amare is the greatest player ever to play the game and the greatest leader in human history. No doubt.

Z-man: It is a fairly widely-held opinion that Amar’e was the best player in the league in the second half of last year.

Whose opinion is it that Amare is better than LeBron or Dwight Howard? The guy is an amazing scorer and people tend to overvalue scoring, but one can argue that his deficiencies in rebounding and playmaking v. Lee, Lee’s scoring not being much worse, and both being poor defenders mean that Lee is about as good.

Z-man: I never heard it said that this was Lee’s team, nor have I heard that GS is now Lee’s team (Monta would not be amused, I’m sure.)

Do you believe everything you read in the media? And who cares what Monta Ellis thinks about anything? He didn’t want the Warriors to draft Curry, they still did. He refused to pass the ball to Curry, and Curry was still their PG and a top rookie. Ellis is a wart.

Z-man: Amar’e’s mantle of leadership (whether here or at GS if the situations were reversed, would be his to lose based on his stature and accomplishment.

I think you are confusing success with leadership. Just because your team wins, does not mean you were the best leader. It means you played on the best team. Often great leaders lead the best teams, but you can also be the best leader in the league and play on a totally crap team with little talent… you can still get those guys to work their hardest and outperform their talent level. Again, though, Amare was a well known malcontent in Phoenix and widely considered an immature prima donna. You simply cannot rest his leadership laurels on the success of a team where he was a thorn more so than a leader. He seems to have taken a leadership role here–the results of which haven’t actually been seen–but you yourself admit that this is a situation in which he was expected to be a leader. Had he not taken a leadership role, it would have been a problem.

Z-man: As far as whether TD misses Lee, what does that mean? Is he implying that he doesn’t respect STAT or thinks Lee is the better player or leader? I’m not sure it has any relationship to this conversation at this early juncture.

Obviously that is not what I’m saying. I am not even trying to argue whether Amare or Lee is a better leader. I am arguing that more important than either one’s individual leadership is the state of the organization and the overall talent level. I don’t really see why that is so hard to understand or why it’s even a debate.
Toney Douglas missing Lee more than any other departed player means nothing besides him having the respect of his teammates. Respect often begets leadership. You said it’s been a long time since the Knicks had a player as good as Amare, I said no it hasn’t been because they had a comparable player last season.

Z-man: Re: Jerry Rice, he didn’t have much leadership status until after he had established himself as a HOF player on an all-time great team.

I guess you spent a lot of time in the 49ers locker room and training facility? Anyway, my point is specifically that even though Jerry Rice is a selfish guy who purposely avoided a leadership role on the team, you can still find a million quotes from his teammates about how his ridiculous work ethic raised the bar and made everyone on the team work harder… that is a type of leadership. Similarly, all reports are that Jordan was not the leader of the Bulls: Pippen was. Still, Jordan undoubtedly inspired and led his teammates in his own way. Again, there are different ways to lead. I don’t think you understand most of my points or even what I am arguing.

]]>By: Z-manhttp://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-blog-previews-pacific-division/#comment-296095
Fri, 01 Oct 2010 21:55:36 +0000http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=4557#comment-296095Yes, there are different ways to lead. With a young, impressionable group, a forceful charismatic perennial all-star making $20 mil per who shows up first, leaves last, and has a long record of being a key player on a team that has played in 52 playoff games, not to mention the conference finals last year, is at an advantage over a guy who has never been to the playoffs, has never made the all-star game except once when a player dropped out due to injury, and didn’t get much love as a free agent. Mainly though, it is hard to lead if you haven’t played on successful teams.

I also don’t think Lee played at the level Amar’e did last season, and I think he is clearly worse than Amar’e. It is a fairly widely-held opinion that Amar’e was the best player in the league in the second half of last year. But doesn’t matter in this argument. Lee just doesn’t have the star power that Amar’e does. It is pretty undisputed thus far that this is Amar’es team, and they haven’t played a game yet; it is also his team to lose. I never heard it said that this was Lee’s team, nor have I heard that GS is now Lee’s team (Monta would not be amused, I’m sure.) True, the Knicks might or might not have been any better last year with Amar’e vs. Lee, although it’s hard to believe they could have been worse. Not a single contending team considered Lee as a guy to acquire and/or pair up with a max player to put their team over the top, even at the bargain price of $13 mil for a 26yo “all-atar.” I would guess (and we are both merely guessing) that Lee will not be perceived as the team leader at first, but it is his to earn due to his lack of team success. On the other hand, Amar’e’s mantle of leadership (whether here or at GS if the situations were reversed, would be his to lose based on his stature and accomplishment. Just my opinion.

As far as whether TD misses Lee, what does that mean? Is he implying that he doesn’t respect STAT or thinks Lee is the better player or leader? I’m not sure it has any relationship to this conversation at this early juncture.

Re: Jerry Rice, he didn’t have much leadership status until after he had established himself as a HOF player on an all-time great team. Montana was that team’s undisputed leader on offense. Football is different in that leadership almost always comes from a couple of positions, whereas in basketball, any position can yield a total team leader.

As you say: we don’t know for sure. I have only met a few current NBA players in my life, and most of those where when I was (and they were) in high school. I haven’t met either Amare or Lee. Even if you were best buds with both Lee and Amare, it’s a strictly hypothetical question. As far as my speculation/opinion:

I don’t think leadership and “stature” just mean that you are the best player. Do I expect Lee to take a leadership role in GS? Absolutely. Who else is going to be a leader on that team? Vladimir Radmanovic? Monta Ellis?

As you yourself say: “a new situation tailor-made for his becoming a leader helps.” That’s my point. Amare stepped into a situation where he was expected to be the leader. Whoever got paid $20 mill per this offseason was going to be expected to be a leader. I’m not saying Lee or Amare is a better leader, I’m saying that the situation is totally different and in response to “It hsa just been so long since the Knicks had an on-court leader that plays at the level that Amar’e does” that Lee was that last season. The rest of the team was just totally screwed up. There are different styles of leadership and motivation (look at Jerry Rice who never tried to lead but still inspired teammates with his work ethic), but the guy people miss playing with is David Lee. He was an All-Star that is not clearly worse than Amare.

Z-man: I wouldn’t put much stock into TD’s assessment, especially when there are only 4 guys from last year still on the roster.

That just means there are more guys to miss… If you lose 2 guys in an offseason and someone asks you who you miss playing with… there’s a (theoretical) 50% chance you pick either player.

]]>By: Z-manhttp://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-blog-previews-pacific-division/#comment-296085
Fri, 01 Oct 2010 18:45:19 +0000http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=4557#comment-296085@16
We don’t know for sure, but it isn’t a stretch to think that a 7-8 year veteran is in a better position to be a leader than he was in his younger days, and that a new situation tailor-made for his becoming a leader helps. Is David Lee going to be in a position to lead in GS? Does he have the stature? Would he have had it here if he stayed?

Lee is an excellent role model but I just don’t think he has the stature of an Amar’e, at least not yet. I wouldn’t put much stock into TD’s assessment, especially when there are only 4 guys from last year still on the roster.

Even for a straight trade, I don’t think GS necessarily wins. The Knicks took the package they did knowing Randolph had upside that he may or may not reach. That was a good risk in their situation (I’d argue better than re-signing Lee), while GS wanted the certainty of 20-10-3 per and an All-Star caliber player.

I wouldn’t go that far considering that Detroit got perennial DPOY Ben Wallace for Grant Hill and the Bulls got Noah and Thomas for Eddy Curry. Really, this was more of an Eddy Curry situation where he was not a free agent as far as GS was concerned because they couldn’t sign him without the trade. If GS wanted David Lee they had to go through the Knicks.

His name has been constantly swirling in trade rumors and I’m sure they’d like to move him in a palatable deal. His value has been low ever since his injury, refusal to pass to Steph Curry, and crappy season, though, and maybe they think he can regain form two seasons after the injury (with less money on his deal) and they can sell high.

I tend to agree, but a. every team knows that and that’s why people aren’t beating down their door to give great packages for Ellis, and b. replacing Ellis with crap players doesn’t help them (unless they get cap relief too maybe).

ess-dog: Again, Lee’s 22 yr old season was not as good as the 30 some odd games that Randolph played as a 20 year old.

David Lee’s development throughout his 20s is much more of an outlier than the norm, in my opinion. I agree AR has a relatively good chance to be as good as or better than Lee, but not based on Lee’s development so much as Randolph’s strong performance, especially in categories that don’t tend to improve… the areas he needs to improve are areas that players routinely do improve in.

]]>By: ess-doghttp://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-blog-previews-pacific-division/#comment-296077
Fri, 01 Oct 2010 15:34:32 +0000http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=4557#comment-296077Re: Azu, Unfortunately I kind of agree. His injury is pretty terrible. To think that he will come back with the same lateral movement on defense is a longshot at best, which is too bad because he could be the exact hustle/role player that we need at the 2. I just hope he has good rehab trainers.

As a straight up trade, G.S. wins that trade, but we were losing an unrestricted free agent. Randolph, Turiaf, and Azu on cheap or expiring contracts for a guy that was basically gone anyway is a great haul, maybe unprecedented depending on what Randolph becomes. Again, Lee’s 22 yr old season was not as good as the 30 some odd games that Randolph played as a 20 year old. So there is a fair chance that Randolph could at least be as good as Lee (albeit, a fairly different player altogether.)

Both teams win really. If I’m Golden State, I would’ve moved Ellis already say, to Memphis for Mayo, Thabeet and a 1st rounder. Or some other team. Once he’s gone, they have a real chance to get better.

Z-man: It hsa just been so long since the Knicks had an on-court leader that plays at the level that Amar’e does.

It’s only been a few months since David Lee left…

The whole team dynamic has changed this season. Obviously I can’t say with any certainty, but I doubt Amare would have faired much better in Lee’s situation as a Knick and I doubt Lee would fair much worse is Amare’s (though people would question giving him the $ Amare got…). Look who young Toney Douglas said he’ll miss most from last season. I hope Amare has matured and takes a leadership role, but he spent all his seasons in Phoenix as pretty much the polar opposite of a leader… he was often a malcontent and considered a bit immature. Nothing against him, just don’t know that his great leadership skills would have shown through on the Isiah or transition Knicks teams.

I think it probably starts with Walshtoni, who have gone from “can’t wait to get to 2010″ to “it’s 2010.” Especially D’Antoni… Last season was a wasted year as was the previous one, but if the Knicks don’t win this season his job security is going to come into question. It’s put-up or shut-up time. He’s got his guy in Amare and some other talented players… time to do something.

]]>By: Z-manhttp://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-blog-previews-pacific-division/#comment-296069
Fri, 01 Oct 2010 14:56:06 +0000http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=4557#comment-296069@14
It hsa just been so long since the Knicks had an on-court leader that plays at the level that Amar’e does.

Z-man: I do think that young players benefit from good coaching and veteran leadership in accelerating their ultimate development.

It probably does help to have an example and be held accountable, especially for an extremely young player. Still you have plenty of examples of guys who came into relatively bad situations and got it together, and plenty of examples of guys who came into ideal situations and didn’t. There are plenty of examples of young guys who came into the same situation and have gone in different paths. All of these guys are world class athletes who have already worked hard to get into the NBA and have plenty of resources at their disposal even in “bad” NBA situation. Ultimately the individual player is responsible for himself.
I don’t think Rajon Rondo would be appreciably worse coming into the league on a lottery team, for example. He might credit his teammates and coach, but that’s human nature for a decent individual: the guy can straight ball, is a freak, and clearly works hard. (Plus he’s in the NBA at a great time for lightning quick PGs… you know, a time when you’re not even aloud to touch them.) His experience would clearly be different if his situation were different, so he might not know x and maybe even not seeing the Big 3 work would have negatively impacted his work ethic. Still, I think he’d be an All-Star PG and pretty indistinguishable besides maybe the team success.

I do think the Knicks will be a better situation for AR if he can get on the same page as D’Antoni. Hopefully he’s got a little more urgency now that he’s on his second strike and has already tasted failure, as well. He doesn’t really have to play a whole lot better than he did in GS to be useful, though to be really valuable he will have to play better (primarily scoring and defense, playmaking would be a nice bonus).

Z: more than anything, his problem is that the Warriors have sucked the past few years, and he has no love for the losers that have been a part of it.

Good point. Still, though, the Knicks are losing more Turiaf’s and Azu’s at absolute best (say, Al Harrington and Nate Robinson and maybe Jordan Hill)… no Anthony Randolph’s. Of course blogs like these are biased towards the home team, but it’s nice to at least try to be rational. I feel like here at KB both the writers and commenters tend to mix in some sign they are in touch with reality alongside the ra-ra stuff.

If that’s the case than it’s the worst use of the phrase “damaged goods” that I’ve ever seen. Again, some rationality thrown in with the ra-ra stuff would be nice. And you don’t even have to trash the Knicks haul to be happy about GS’ if you’re a Warriors’ fan… I think the Warriors did well to add Lee, but am still very happy with the Knicks’ side of the deal. We’ll see how it all turns out, but on paper I view this as a win-win.