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Topic: Linguistic peculiarity (Read 10764 times)

The English language has quite an interesting history. It was actually formed as a creole of Old English and Old French after the invasion from the Normans in 1066. Old English itself branched off of Anglo Frisian and bears a relationship to Old Saxon, which branched off of Old Germanic. However, there were some merging between tribes, like Jutes, Angles and Saxons and of course some influences from Vikings. But all of these languages are moderately similar as they are Germanic (Norse is just 'North Germanic'). So Old English is considered to be a Germanic language.

Thanks to the battle of 1066 we ended up with a Norman nobility. This meant the language of the 'common man' and the nobles were very different so they kinda met half way linguistically in that the two picked up words to communicate (hence creole). It's why we end up with different words for animals when they're walking around alive and sat dead on our plate. The explanation I was given was that the natives would raise the animals and the nobles would eat them. So we get our words like cow, chicken, sheep and deer from native words and we get beef, poultry, mutton and venison from ouour invaders. I don't know if they were the actual words, but they have their origin there.

But our adventure didn't end there. With Christianity coming over we picked up Latin, which helped influence our language more. Then of course there's language change over time to consider - language evolves as people use it. The language varied region to region and people from opposite ends of the country would speak and write differently. This is why they ended up trying to standardise the language to keep it consistent and there came the invention of the dictionary and also the printing press. As you probably well can tell it didn't take over the language as a whole, it just gave us a means of communicating effectively. We still have quite a large range of dialects and some of them I can't even understand. With the British Empire and us trying to take over the world, many languages have had their influences. Heck words come in through trade, like the word 'Kiosk', it's a Turkish word.

America also had a phase of standardisation, they wanted to correct some of the irregularities and make it more logical, but it didn't get very far and it was destined to develop its own dialects of American English, a guy from Texas will speak different to a guy from California. But it is the explanation as to why we write "colour" and Americans write "color", the 'u' does absolutely nothing to how you pronounce it.

If you are interested in reading up on the History of the English language there is actually a decent book to read by Melvyn Bragg (BBC Radio 4 Presenter), it's an interesting read. It's called The Adventure of English.

I learned a lot of this stuff studying English Language in 6th form and doing Creative Writing at University. I personally love the topic.

Now another internet language topic is that of Proto-Indo European (AKA PIE). It suggests that all Indo-European languages have a common ancestor, but it is going back so far it's hard to get a clear idea of what such a language would sound like, but there is a project to try and figure out what the language would have been like. An easy comparison to show how these languages are related is the word 'father':Pitha - SanskritPater - LatinPadre - SpanishVater - GermanFather - EnglishPere - FrenchF?ður - Old Norse (pronounced Fothur)

Au Bon Pain = To Good BreadHmmm. You are a bread in the neck. Nah, doesn't work for me.

Orlando Bloom = famous land of flowersAssembled from:

Quote from: Online Etymology Dictionary

Orlando - masc. proper name, Italian form of Roland (q.v.). The city in Florida, U.S., so called from 1857, supposedly in honor of a U.S. soldier, Orlando Reeves, who was killed there in 1835 by Seminoles. It had been settled c.1844 as Jernigan.

Roland - masc. proper name, from French, from Old High German Hrodland, literally "(having a) famous land."

van (noun1) "front part of an army or other advancing group," c.1600, shortening of vanguard.

Fiji, I'm curious where you got a meaning for 'van' that indicated towards or in the rear?

Looking those up lead to this:

Quote from: Online Etymology Dictionary

vanilla (noun) 1660s, from Spanish vainilla "vanilla plant," literally "little pod," diminutive of vaina "sheath," from Latin vagina "sheath" (see vagina). So called from the shape of the pods. European discovery 1521 by Hernando Cortes' soldiers on reconnaissance in southeastern Mexico. Meaning "conventional, of ordinary sexual preferences" is 1970s, from notion of whiteness and the common choice of vanilla ice cream.

So it came full circle – sort of a trip around the world.(naughty pun intended) From a sexual reference back to a sexual reference.

Then about Afrikaans, swiped from Wiki:

Quote

Afrikaans /æfr??k??ns/ is a West Germanic language, spoken natively in South Africa, Namibia and to a lesser extent in Botswana and Zimbabwe. It is an offshoot of several Dutch dialects spoken by the mainly Dutch settlers of what is now South Africa, where it gradually began to develop independently in the course of the 18th century. Hence, historically, it is a daughter language of Dutch, and was previously referred to as "Cape Dutch" (a term also used to refer collectively to the early Cape settlers) or 'kitchen Dutch' (a derogatory term used to refer to Afrikaans in its earlier days). Although Afrikaans adopted words from languages such as Malay, Portuguese, the Bantu languages, and the Khoisan languages, an estimated 90 to 95 percent of Afrikaans vocabulary is ultimately of Dutch origin. Therefore, differences with Dutch often lie in a more regular morphology, grammar, and spelling of Afrikaans. There is a large degree of mutual intelligibility between the two languages—especially in written form.

Crash helmet = SturzhelmGoing for a walk ~= spazieren gehen = {literally} walk goingNouns are always capitalized in German. I'm cheating a bit using Google translate since I've forgotten most the of the German I learned. If you're looking something up in a translation dictionary but only find half the word try looking for the other half as German is a strong contender for king of the compound words.

"pomme frites" is French – I learned that in my German classes, lol. There isn't a German term for French fries. The German word for potato is Kartoffel. Germans use the French term "pomme frites".

I was looking up the etymology of the animal (English) & food (French) words Seppuku mentioned and ran across this amusing bit (when I looked up chicken).

Quote from: Online Etymology Dictionary

cock (noun1) "male chicken," Old English cocc "male bird," Old French coc (12c., Modern French coq), Old Norse kokkr, all of echoic origin. Old English cocc was a nickname for "one who strutted like a cock," thus a common term in the Middle Ages for a pert boy, used of scullions, apprentices, servants, etc.

A common personal name till c.1500, it was affixed to Christian names as a pet diminutive, e.g. Wilcox, Hitchcock, etc. Slang sense of "penis" is attested since 1610s (but cf. pillicock "penis," from c.1300); cock-teaser is from 1891. A cocker spaniel (1823) was trained to start woodcocks. Cock-and-bull is first recorded 1620s, perhaps an allusion to Aesop's fables, with their incredible talking animals, or to a particular story, now forgotten. French has parallel expression coq-à-l'âne.

lol

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Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Thanks to the battle of 1066 we ended up with a Norman nobility. This meant the language of the 'common man' and the nobles were very different so they kinda met half way linguistically in that the two picked up words to communicate (hence creole). It's why we end up with different words for animals when they're walking around alive and sat dead on our plate. The explanation I was given was that the natives would raise the animals and the nobles would eat them. So we get our words like cow, chicken, sheep and deer from native words and we get beef, poultry, mutton and venison from ouour invaders. I don't know if they were the actual words, but they have their origin there.

From French:Boeuf (when it's dead, Vache when it's still alive)Poule (both dead and alive)Mouton (dead and alive)Venaison (that one I had to look up; when it's dead ... alive, it's a cerf, male and biche, female)

From a documentary presented by one of the Monty Python crew, I also recall that butter was always called butter except when refered to in legal documents, then it sudden becomes bure (from beurre).

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2 Interwebs 7:42And in the seventh year, thou shalt cast out the Nam from thine assembly for he haveth a potty mouth.

"pomme frites" is French – I learned that in my German classes, lol. There isn't a German term for French fries. The German word for potato is Kartoffel. Germans use the French term "pomme frites".

We use pomme frites too ... though usually, abreviated to frit(ten) or frut(ten), neither of which you'll find in the dictionary, there it will say frieten, frietes or frietjes. The Dutch either call it frietes or patat (which in turn is what we use for potato ... a Dutchman ordering 'patat' in a Belgian fries shack will often be handed a raw potato ... at which point they usually change their order to 'frietes' )

Much of the same happened to Flemish. From the late 18th century onwards, if you wanted to be someone in Flanders, you had better speak French

So I was mislead then. When I was in Saint Niklaus I was told not to bother speaking French, to stick with English. (I didn't have tiime to learn Flemmish, all I remember is "kip", "pomme frites - isn't that reallly french" and "dank u")

Misled? Not necessarily ... while French was taught as being the superior language as late as the eighties, that doesn't mean knowledge of French was THAT widespread. Plus, anyone who, by, say 1988 hadn't advanced too far in primary education has not had the notion of French = superior rammed into their skulls. So, if you went to Sint-Niklaas any time recent, anyone 30 or under would indeed know English better than French.[1]Employers are beginning to lament the lack of Dutch-French bilingualists, actually.

Thanks to the battle of 1066 we ended up with a Norman nobility. This meant the language of the 'common man' and the nobles were very different so they kinda met half way linguistically in that the two picked up words to communicate (hence creole). It's why we end up with different words for animals when they're walking around alive and sat dead on our plate. The explanation I was given was that the natives would raise the animals and the nobles would eat them. So we get our words like cow, chicken, sheep and deer from native words and we get beef, poultry, mutton and venison from ouour invaders. I don't know if they were the actual words, but they have their origin there.

From French:Boeuf (when it's dead, Vache when it's still alive)Poule (both dead and alive)Mouton (dead and alive)Venaison (that one I had to look up; when it's dead ... alive, it's a cerf, male and biche, female)

From a documentary presented by one of the Monty Python crew, I also recall that butter was always called butter except when refered to in legal documents, then it sudden becomes bure (from beurre).

So I find it kinda interesting that in England we're expected to learn French and German at school because we seem to be the result of Germans and French making love. I know that's a simplification of a complex history, but ah well.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 02:29:31 AM by Seppuku »

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“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto MusashiWarning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

"au" is the contraction - is that the word ... or is that only used in conjunction with childbirth? - of "à le"

Yes, contraction is the correct word. For some reason I find this quite amusing and prompting all sorts of silly thoughts. (For example, how women giving birth would prefer contraction to mean something more like the definition that goes with language where it shortens things up.)

obstetrician: (to woman in labor) Do not breathe too fast.nurse: Do you not mean 'don't breathe too fast'.obstetrician: How drole that you should neglect to use a contraction while accosting me for not using a contraction.woman: Oy! You two! I'm the one with the contractions here, now get this damned baby out of me!

btw, while on the subject ... a midwife in Dutch is a wroetvrouw ... which translates to "rootingwife"and not rooting as in "come on! you can do it!" but as in "get up in there and root about" ... If there is indeed a god who invented childbirth as a punishment he certainly got it right!

Any special reason Dutch babies wouldn't want to be born and the midwife needs to reach inside and pull them out? I know a dog will hide and need to be dragged out of the hiding place after making a mess. If the Dutch were known for their guilt I'd say the baby's worried about getting yelled at for the mess of the water breaking. lol

I didn't know that, in spite of the differences in the words, midwife and obstetric were so close in meaning. I find it amusing that, due to its linguistic root, obstetric has a strong link to obstacle.

What I like about the site is that it also gives you every definition the word you are looking up appears in. So I look down the list looking for cool tidbits. Which leads me to look up other words and I find things like:

Still used for "hedgehog" in non-standard speech in Cumbria, Yorkshire, Shropshire. Applied throughout 16c. to people whose appearance or behavior suggested hedgehogs, from hunchbacks (1520s) to goblins (1580s) to bad girls (c.1530); meaning "poorly or raggedly clothed youngster" emerged 1550s, but was not in frequent use until after c.1780. Sea urchin is recorded from 1590s (a 19c. Newfoundland name for them was whore's eggs).

It never occured to me to look up what might be the land equivalent of a sea urchin ... and now I know. Thanks Samothec.

In Dutch these critters also have two vastly different names. One is Egel, which, apart from being useful in a crossword, is a rather dull word.The other is Stekelvarken which I like a bit more, it translates to something like prickly pig or spikey pig

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2 Interwebs 7:42And in the seventh year, thou shalt cast out the Nam from thine assembly for he haveth a potty mouth.

What's really amusing is that I didn't go looking for 'urchin'. 'Midwife' lead me to 'whore' which lead me to 'urchin'. As I mentioned, with the word you wanted they also list the definitions which also contain that word and since 'sea urchins' were also called 'whore's eggs', presto, a connection.

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Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

I found this[1] - having gotten curious about the term "whore's eggs":

Quote

There was another name for Sea Urchin, up and down the US eastern seaboard from the 19th century: Whore's Eggs. It'd be nice to think this provocative name referred to the animal's innards, mistakenly thought of as roe. But, it turns out, this was an innocent case of a local patois: in Newfoundland, when you leave the paddles of a boat in the water, the sea urchins lay eggs on them, thus, “oars eggs.” In Newfoundland those with early English roots often add the letter ‘h’ before words beginning with a vowel –happle, helephant, hair. Over time the descriptor became “whores’ eggs.” Some would even say whores heggs"

From there I found myself unintentionally going in a circle. The page that I got the above quote from lists several unusual things that can be eaten. Another was Japanese knotweed with the first line being a quote which includes a quote:

Quote

"Japanese knotweed has been called "the asbestos of the gardening world"."

That got me curious so I read the entry then looked it up on Wikipedia. The last line of the Wiki entry for Japanese knotweed:

Quote

A novel use for a related species known as oh-titadori (Polygonum sachalinense), done in Hokkaido {Japan} is feeding it to larvae of sea urchins in aquaculture.

(bold mine)Full circle. LOL. Admittedly a small circle but very unexpected and very cool.

As for 'whore's luck', Urban Dictionary.com says this:

Quote

'Hortur' is swedish for 'Whore's Luck'. This simply means that a prostitute was bought and f**ked by a attractive customer.

Surprisingly, it was the first link in the Google search. As you might have guessed, all others look to be porn.

Dutch adopts English words quite a bit. Some words, in time, become recognised as 'Dutch'. Verbs get official Dutch conjugation. What I find far more important than keeping a language 'pure' (n'est pas, la France?) is having people using it creatively. Have people able to get a point across in understandable language ... and if you have to import foreign words to do that, than so be it. And of course some people panic that this will be the end of the Dutch language. But, we survived French dominance for a couple of centuries, we'll survive this English influx too. An important difference, here, between Dutch-Dutch and Flemish-Dutch is that Dutch-Dutch imports word AND pronounciation while Flemish-Dutch only imports the word, applying Dutch pronounciation rules (to an extent) to them.

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2 Interwebs 7:42And in the seventh year, thou shalt cast out the Nam from thine assembly for he haveth a potty mouth.

^^^^ Your language may not survice the influx of Oklahoma missionaries there to save your collective souls! If you show up at a coffee house for an espresso, peek in to see if you see a red OU (University of Oklahoma) shirt - run screaming if you do.

You'll know Dutch is dead if the local godless start craving "lamb fries"

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving their god is. - neopagan

The 'sprouts' they refer to are the people they're able to ensnare. I guess it's supposed to be a conversation starter.

I get the sprouts part.... it was the strikethrough that baffles me. What What are they saying, they are there to wipe out the ensnared sprouts? Always thought it a little sinister.

I guess it's like "Brussels sprouts ... but not the vegetable!" and then you're supposed to go up to them and ask "then what the hell are you on about". And you're in a conversation and 3 sentences later, they bring up Jeeeeeeeesus.

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2 Interwebs 7:42And in the seventh year, thou shalt cast out the Nam from thine assembly for he haveth a potty mouth.

You're pretty damn close on the bent ace ... it's pretending to be unaware of something. Honest Bob: "Hey, who charged whisky to the company credit card."'Bent Ace' Benny: "Now who would do a thing like that?!"

It comes from a bit of skullduggery during whist play. Espacially with a fresh deck, you can ever so slightly bend the aces and you'll feel them when they pass through your hand while dealing. Of course, sooner or later someone will notice and call out "Who's been bending the aces?!" at which point everyone denies involvement.

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2 Interwebs 7:42And in the seventh year, thou shalt cast out the Nam from thine assembly for he haveth a potty mouth.

As for ghostrider ... it's someone who's heading the wrong way in a one-way street (usually on a highway). And that's not even slang, it's the actual term."A ghostrider has been spotted on the E19, heading from ..."

Now, speaking of peculiarities. Last year, the football team Beerschot had, on their left midfield, the Israeli player Dor Malul. Which is a rather funny name to a Dutch speaker as Malul sounds like "My dick". Then, in january, they purchase the left back Joey Suk ... so, henceforth, their lineup in the newspapers would show, on the left flank ... Suk Malul.

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2 Interwebs 7:42And in the seventh year, thou shalt cast out the Nam from thine assembly for he haveth a potty mouth.