Stay with the Republicans or start anew?

MikeD makes the perfectly legitimate point that there is a difference between party and philosophy. However, one party, the Democrat party, is dominated by people who do not share our conservative philosophy, so is not a viable home for that philosophy. That leaves us with a choice of working through the other party or forming a new, third party. The worst thing we can do is split our efforts, with some conservatives seeing the Republican party as the only viable option and others giving up on the established parties and starting fresh.

Certainly, we need a little time to recover from this election and regain our footing. But we should address this issue sooner rather than later. It takes time to build a machine to rival the one that the left has built over the years. Competing machines, inside and outside of the Republican party, will ensure our losses will continue. Personally, I’m inclined to work within the existing framework. But I believe this is a discussion we need to have. So, in or out?

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This is a multi-front war we are engaged in, and for now I don’t see our side right now as much more than a stunned and depressed army that has just been handed its greatest defeat ever.

I agree with what jj said a couple of posts over, that the GOP has pretty much breathed its last. (Funny to think, though, that if Obama had lost we’d be saying kaddish over the Dems.) But something organized has to take its place, and the contours of that successor party are ones not clear to me.

In a way, the GOP turned itself into a Gen. McClellan, a passive, clueless, and eventually self-defeating non-entity whom Lincoln had to beg to engage the rebel armies. Later, after Grant took control of the Union armies, the difference in the two generals’ approach was dramatic. I don’t recall the specific battle, but I remember reading how after being badly beaten by Lee, a weary, dispirited, and exhausted column of Grant’s soldiers began streaming north to get as far away from the rebels as possible and find somewhere safe to lick their wounds.

When they reached a crossroads where the road to the left curved back toward Lee’s army, there stood Ulysses Grant, pointing to that road, directing them to go back and fight the rebels again. You might think that his soldiers would have laughed in his face and continued their plod north. But seeing Grant commanding them to go back and prove that they had not yet exhausted all the fight in them gave them heart. The ragged Union stream changed direction, headed south, regrouped, and beat Lee’s army in the next encounter.

We don’t have a Grant. But perhaps we should pretend that we do and take that crucial crossroads turn ourselves. As to what we will arm ourselves with when we arrive at the next battle, that is a question that will take more than one night’s worth of restless post-election day sleep to answer.

jj

Out. Whether the Rockefeller “country-club” tag is fair or not, it’s there. It’s the perception, and it’s not going away. And it’s even accurate insofar as the implication of moderate, reach-across-the-aisle, Kumbaya, can’t-we-all-just-get-along pabulum is concerned. So, moving right along… dump it.

Danny Lemieux

It doesn’t matter what the name “Republicans” give themselves. What matters is the values systems.

This election wasn’t about people rejecting Republican values, it was about people wanting Democrat values. I venture that most people who voted don’t have a clue about what Republican values are, given the media distortions. What they knew is that people wanted free stuff from the government and the Republicans were trying to act like grown ups warning about the cliff ahead. it’s no fun, but that doesn’t change the fact that there is a cliff ahead.

Danny Lemieux

Think of Churchill in the pre-WWII years.

He and his ilk were despised because, grumps that they were, they kept warning of the war that was to come and the need to spend on war preparations. Major bummer! Nobody wanted to hear that. Much more fun to cheer Neville Chamberlain when he announced “peace in our time” and came back waving the Munich Accords.

Of course, when war hit, the previously despised Churchill and his crew were heroes. When war ended, they were viewed as bums, once again, by socialists and their leader, Clement Atlee, who plunged Britain into a deep, dark economic depression. Only many years later did Britain start to catch up with the rest of Europe in its economic recovery.

There are very few people today remember Chamberlain or Atlee in favorable light, while Churchill remains a historical icon as the man who saved Britain in its darkest hours.

Just because the Democrats trounced us this past election does not make we want to compromise my values. If my values are to change, first show me how and why they are wrong. For now, I much prefer to take the principled road of a Churchill than to wallow in the misguided ditches of the Chamberlains and Atlees. Like I said, first show us why Republican principles are wrong. Time will tell us soon enough.

notomarx

What I think has surprised me the most, is the low turnout for the Republicans and the high turnout for the O. He is young, energetic and full of promises. We know they are full of hot air and lies, but they like their guilty O.J. Simpson getting by with it. Appealing to our non-reality orientated youth.
What will make J.Q. Public as motivated?

It is too soon for me to answer that question for myself. I am still taking in the pros and cons about both sides of this question, and about what happened in the election in general. What I do know is that there is plenty of backcrushing work to do every day, starting now, whether as a tea partier, Republican, libertarian, or just a concerned individual, to rectify the years of neglect in politics on our side. Most of us for decades (surely since WWII ended) have thought we could lead lives relatively free of politics, other than voting, protesting, rallying, or donating once in a while. Were we wrong? If it is true that Obama had campaign centers at work around the country for the entire past four years of his presidency (where did they get that money?), then this is part of where we went wrong–more of us need to realize we can’t sit back for days or weeks on end and expect to then win. And I don’t even like politics or dealing with any of this stuff, so where does that leave us? Instead of choosing a party, it’s more a question of: continue fighting, turn it into an obsession, or give up?

As Rush said, it is hard to fight against Santa Claus. I guess we can no longer expect the “white” reality we’ve known since 1776: that people in general understand what love of this country is, what America stands for and how and why it’s special, how the free market works, why education is important, or even what makes common sense, what reality is, what facts are, what history taught. So aren’t these all areas in which WE have failed to get our message across, for decades?

The election this time went to the left because of minorities, women, people who can’t or won’t do math, relatively uneducated people and inexperienced youth, people not swayed or reached by rational argument. I am a woman who has devoted her life to rational argument. I believe that a persuasive argument based on facts will win the day. I think so do most on the right. I guess that is now a “white” attitude, outmoded. How do I exert that 180-degree change in attitude, let alone start fighting a total war with it?

And in place of appeals to facts and reasoning, the left uses lies and cheats (dirty money, dirty voting, indoctrinating children, handing out Santa bribes). So do many in the GOP too, for that matter. Are we supposed to do that too in order to win? Win what? That’s the difference in philosophy I see between the left and the non-statists. The left is determined to win by any means necessary, and the libertarians/conservatives have principles and fight for them. Which way will prevail? So what now and which way to go when our country based on the rule of law becomes more like the dog-eat-dog, might-makes-right larger world we’ve been sheltered from all our lives? What do I tell my children?

I was talking with a friend today who classifies herself (honestly, too) as a “persuadable.” She found the Romney message unfocused and, with her marketing background, blamed it for not targeting minorities, women, etc. I agree. I pointed out, though, that the GOP is an old white institution, while conservativism is a broad approach to individualism and free-market economies that cheerfully embraces all colors, sexes, races, etc.

The GOP needs to be taken over (per Huan) or done away with (per jj). It is embarrassed by its values and unable to reach out across white person lines. That’s not the fault of conservativism. That’s the fault of the Republican party.

Here in Mississippi– of all places!– there’s a movement to bring together various liberty loving groups– TEA party, Campaign for Liberty, Constitution Party– to begin to work together. We are having a Constitutional Congress Saturday, a statewide meeting of like-minded people who want to work out just how we are going to start influencing what goes on locally and state-wide. I don’t know what will come of it, but I am hopeful.

If you think the national GOP is a country club, you should see the redneck version of it– sort of an elite shooting’ club. Haley Barbour. ‘Nuff said.

A bit off topic but zabrina– I wouldn’t tell the kids anything. I’d start teaching them how to do just about everything for themselves. I myself am going to teach my 26 year old how to shoot.

It doesn’t matter what the name “Republicans” give themselves. What matters is the values systems, writes Danny. I have to disagree. It very much matters that Republicans are called Republican and there is something about that designation that repulses a lot of people. When I have expressed R values without the R name, Democrats are receptive. As soon as I tell them that every one of the points is a Republican position, they recoil in horror that they could be so easily fooled by the evil that is Republican. We see this happen in so many videos that the videos are now a joke.

Bill Whittle in his last pre-election video pointed out that Liberals are a minority while Conservatives out number them 2 to 1. Yet, the Democrat party is indisputably the larger of the two major parties. Given that most people self-identify as Conservative, espouse Conservative values, yet still register, support, and vote Democrat/Liberal,something other than values is the defining factor for the widespread and outright hatred of all things Republican. It’s in the name and no one is going to convince these smart people their understanding of Republicans is all wrong.

There’s a third option – join the Democrat Party campaigning for the Conservative values that most Democrats actually believe.

notomarx

According to Rush is, and I paraphrase…What is wrong with the Republican Party is that it isn’t Santa Clause. If we have American’s who now think they can vote themselves free stuff giving them more and better free stuff is not an answer. I tend to agree.

SADIE

The ‘shunning’ of Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann, the lack of support for Alan West (would have loved to have seen him speak at the RNC).

My message to the RNC:
“You’ve made your bed, now lie in it” – just don’t expect me to be in it.

Republicans are known, whether overseas or domestically, as hypocrites or rich fat cats or something of that nature.

They have gotten this reputation because, honestly, it’s inevitable once you let the Left run free for a couple generations of unfettered propaganda. People in California, the inner cities, believe it, regardless of which political party they call home.

Stick with the Republican party. Any other party that would come up and supplant it would be pointed to by the media and liberal establishment as “The Racists Formerly Known as the Republican Party.”
I am just not a big fan of this post-defeat drama. We’ve had our current two party system for 150+ years, and it’s not changing tomorrow. We can’t afford to let Democrats run amok for however long it takes to hash out that kind of permanent cleave.
The key is to push your ideas within the party. I think there’s a healthy mix at the moment. Let’s find a way to catalyze this energy into 2014 and 2016. And pick up some Gary Johnson supporters while we’re at it.

BW said: “…the Democrat party, is dominated by people who do not share our conservative philosophy….”

So….isn’t the Republican party also “dominated by people who do not share our conservative philosophy?”

I hold that BOTH major parties are dominated by people who don’t share our conservative philosophy, the big difference being that the GOP mouths the conservative philosophy, but betrays it virtually every time they get the chance.

Look at 2000 – 2006, when we had a Republican president, a Republican House, and a Republican Senate. Did the GOP write and fight for legislation to reign in Fannie and Freddie? We know that they were aware of the threat, because GW Bush talked about it, and proposed that Congress deal with it. For all I know, there were bills written….but was there a big fight? With the GOP politicians going on TV to explain that No, changing the status quo wasn’t racist – the status quo was unsustainable and shot through with fraud and would fairly shortly lead to disaster?

We all know that there was no big fight, and that the GOP did NOT get out there and attempt to educate the American people – apparently because they didn’t want to be called bad names and be left out of the good parties in D.C. So…..when the meltdown occurred, the Dems were able to hang the entire thing around the necks of the Party with people who KNEW what was coming, but lacked the courage and imagination to support those Party members and go to the public.

GOP leadership, and far too many GOP politicians are NOT conservative…they just play at it on TV in order to get elected. Once in D.C., they play the “permanent government” game, and care very little if they’re in the majority or minority, so long as they get their goodies.

I don’t know if the brand is permanently ruined – Donald Sensing thinks it is:
(http://senseofevents.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-permanent-sunset-of-republican.html)
but for absolutely certain, we need to take over the Party and replace its leadership – that is, if we don’t start a new one. Reagan knew this, if you remember. It all sounds really tiring to me, and I’m tempted to just stay home and try to avoid the mess that’s coming. I’ll probably recover in a few weeks.

SADIE

Earl, I don’t know what Reagan knew …he granted amnesty in 1986 to 3 million illegal immigrants. Bubba added another 3 million in 1994.

Maybe the GOP was never really conservative by today’s standards and just an alternative to the Dems, although not much of one when you read the first sentence again.

Sadie: Reagan was the guy who said (for the first time, I think) that we didn’t need a new Party, we needed to reform the one we had. If you remember, the poo-bahs of the Party hated Reagan, and denigrated him openly….even sometimes after he was President.

As for the amnesty, he got rolled by the Dems, who promised border control and didn’t deliver. It had happened to him in California with abortion, and it happened in D.C. with taxes/spending. He learned, but it took several stabs in the back, as it usually does with honorable people who believe that others will reciprocate.

Conservatives, who one expects to study history and learn from it, need to remember these things. We do not raise taxes on the promise of spending cuts….we see the Departments abolished, or the functions eliminated, first! We do not provide a “path to citizenship” until after we’ve got the border closed and see that it’s working. We do not allow felons to stay here under any circumstances. Etc., etc., etc……

Trust, but verify.

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