"Official" Apple Sept 2012 event discussion thread

Strangely, it's the lack of real camera improvements that makes upgrading from the 4S seem pointless.

I think until we have more details about the phone we should probably reserve judgement. There are a lot of bullet point changes that could be either total non-events or really impactful, depending on how they play out in RL.

Personally I think 2X CPU and GPU is a fairly big deal; but I play a lot of games on my phone.

For me this is a big deal even if I don't play games (though I never thought the current cpu was slow in games). I hate to have to wait for the camera app to be ready before I can take a picture or video. I also notice the time it takes for pictures to be "processed" for emails, edits, etc. All of this will be much faster.

And you guys aren't seeing the forest for the trees. The slimness and lightness of the iPhone 5 combined with it's crazy high build quality is its defining feature.

I felt the thickness of the iPhone 4/4S was fine...I wasn't looking for anything thinner or lighter. In fact I would prefer to have the same thickness with a larger battery. IMO having longer battery life is more of a win than having an ultra thin phone.

So they improved everything in the phone, but you are underwhelmed because you weren't made to sit up and take notice. But what would possible make you sit up and take notice?

Some genuinely new hardware or software. Siri was impressive, for example. There's nothing like that in this latest iteration. A slightly bigger screen isn't impressive these days either, considering it's still smaller than every other flagship device so far. The enhanced speed....you might or might not even notice depending on what you do with the phone, or how old your previous phone was. The whole overall feel is of a very incremental upgrade.

So how will the whole iPhone pre-order thing go? This will be my first smartphone and will be switching to ATT from TMobile.

Has there been a time published yet when online pre-orders will actually start? I see that the physical stores will start at 8am. (edit) I see Sprint will start at 12am pacific, which means having to stay up past 2am

Can I pre-order it and then after receiving it start an account and switch my number over without going into a store?

Does the 'ship date' really mean the delivery date, and I should have it delivered to my work, or does it really ship out friday and I should have it delivered to my home on Saturday?

if you're switching to tmobile you won't be pre-ordering. the phone will come locked to AT&T. you will be waiting 1-2 months for the unlocked model to come out and pay full price.

well, that's not completely true. Once you pay the $325 ETF I believe you can get the phone unlocked. So the 16gb phone will cost $200 + $325 = $525. A fully unlocked one is $650.

I talked to Verizon and they said 7am for over the phone, likely midnight for via the internet.

He's going the other way. From T-Mobile to AT&T.Should be fine with pre-order.

And you guys aren't seeing the forest for the trees. The slimness and lightness of the iPhone 5 combined with it's crazy high build quality is its defining feature.

Regular people care deeply about this stuff even (especially?) if they can't verbalize it. It has nothing to do with specs or feature checklists.

The iPhone has always been a lust-inducing object in a way that no other mass-produced consumer item is, and the new iPhone 5 is the best example of this yet.

It will sell in massive numbers.

I think Engadget reported on the manufacturing that during assembly a machine picks a back for the phone that is within milimeters for a super accurate fit. I have to wonder how accurate this is. I ask from the aftermarket repair standpoint, if the tolerances are so tight that only 1 in 50 (guess) backs will fit any given iPhone5 this pretty much ruins any chance of being able to repair your phone without going to apple. It may also kill the aftermarket custom back makers as well. Sometimes 'crazy high build quality' is not all it's cracked up to be.

Strangely, it's the lack of real camera improvements that makes upgrading from the 4S seem pointless.

I think until we have more details about the phone we should probably reserve judgement. There are a lot of bullet point changes that could be either total non-events or really impactful, depending on how they play out in RL.

Personally I think 2X CPU and GPU is a fairly big deal; but I play a lot of games on my phone.

For me this is a big deal even if I don't play games (though I never thought the current cpu was slow in games). I hate to have to wait for the camera app to be ready before I can take a picture or video. I also notice the time it takes for pictures to be "processed" for emails, edits, etc. All of this will be much faster.

The problem for me is justification. Frankly, the 4S is still a great phone which does pretty much everything I ask of it. It doesn't help the iPhone 5's case that I live in the UK and would like to stay on Vodafone (free calls between family phones), so LTE is not an option. The only area where I could just about have talked myself into it was the camera, and I just don't see significant enough advances to trade in the 4S (especially now we get panoramic capture in iOS 6).

If I had an iPhone 4, I would be upgrading like a shot. Tick, tock.*

*In a year's time I would expect the iPhone 6 to have UK-compatible LTE, as well as a Vodafone LTE network to use it on.

Kudos to Apple for mimicing Intel's Tick/Tock release strategy, especially considering it works perfectly with the 2 year contracts here in the US. 4S to 5? Sure, I can understand why that's not a big reason to upgrade (even though I'd disagree). 4 to the 5? Huge upgrade.

The problem for me is justification. Frankly, the 4S is still a great phone which does pretty much everything I ask of it. It doesn't help the iPhone 5's case that I live in the UK and would like to stay on Vodafone (free calls between family phones), so LTE is not an option. The only area where I could just about have talked myself into it was the camera, and I just don't see significant enough advances to trade in the 4S (especially now we get panoramic capture in iOS 6).

If I had an iPhone 4, I would be upgrading like a shot. Tick, tock.*

Well Im on a 3GS and probably will pull the trigger on the 5(Nothing to do with the Phone price...I have to see what my contract difference is). If I was in your situation theres no chance I would upgrade.

And you guys aren't seeing the forest for the trees. The slimness and lightness of the iPhone 5 combined with it's crazy high build quality is its defining feature.

I felt the thickness of the iPhone 4/4S was fine...I wasn't looking for anything thinner or lighter. In fact I would prefer to have the same thickness with a larger battery. IMO having longer battery life is more of a win than having an ultra thin phone.

Well Apple isnt selling this phone to just you, they are selling to the entire world. Thinner or lighter reigns supreme over battery life for sales. Since Apple is a business they cater what makes money. How many people go into a store, physically hold the phone to make a purchase decision vs going in and saying "Geez golly the small print indicates longer battery life!"

And you guys aren't seeing the forest for the trees. The slimness and lightness of the iPhone 5 combined with it's crazy high build quality is its defining feature.

I felt the thickness of the iPhone 4/4S was fine...I wasn't looking for anything thinner or lighter. In fact I would prefer to have the same thickness with a larger battery. IMO having longer battery life is more of a win than having an ultra thin phone.

Well Apple isnt selling this phone to just you, they are selling to the entire world. Thinner or lighter reigns supreme over battery life for sales. Since Apple is a business they cater what makes money. How many people go into a store, physically hold the phone to make a purchase decision vs going in and saying "Geez golly the small print indicates longer battery life!"

I made no such implication they were. I was voicing what I would have preferred in the phone. It is OK to voice an opinion on Ars is it not?

Some genuinely new hardware or software. Siri was impressive, for example. There's nothing like that in this latest iteration. A slightly bigger screen isn't impressive these days either, considering it's still smaller than every other flagship device so far. The enhanced speed....you might or might not even notice depending on what you do with the phone, or how old your previous phone was. The whole overall feel is of a very incremental upgrade.

I suspect that part of the reason for no big Siri-esque show-stopper features is Apple finalizing it's divorce from Google. Having to build their own mapping solution was likely no small undertaking and cost a lot of resources.

So they improved everything in the phone, but you are underwhelmed because you weren't made to sit up and take notice. But what would possible make you sit up and take notice?

Had Apple been able to maintain operational secrecy the bigger screen size would have done that. The problem was that the hardware was completely known.

Personally I'm most excited about the camera. It's supposed to do much better low-light photography. I'm still on a 4 so it'll be a big upgrade for me.

With regards to the overall phone, the devices are reaching a maturity stage where I'm not sure we're going to be gaining a lot anymore. There really aren't any wow factors because it already does everything people need. Even if it had NFC I doubt that'd be exciting for most people.

What *could* excite would be a camera with real lenses. But the technology isn't remotely close to being able to do that yet. Other than that I can't conceive of any possible hardware boost anymore. (Honestly to me the new connector is a step backwards - even though I understand completely why they are moving to it)

The real issue is the software. There's a lot Apple could do there but this year they're primarily focusing on the mapping device and their Passport technology. I can understand that. I hope that next year we get real interapplication communication as that's a place where Android and Win8 are much better. Further it's beginning to be a problem on iOS (moving data between applications)

Strangely, it's the lack of real camera improvements that makes upgrading from the 4S seem pointless.

I think until we have more details about the phone we should probably reserve judgement. There are a lot of bullet point changes that could be either total non-events or really impactful, depending on how they play out in RL.

Personally I think 2X CPU and GPU is a fairly big deal; but I play a lot of games on my phone.

For me this is a big deal even if I don't play games (though I never thought the current cpu was slow in games). I hate to have to wait for the camera app to be ready before I can take a picture or video. I also notice the time it takes for pictures to be "processed" for emails, edits, etc. All of this will be much faster.

One of my primary uses of iDevices is data analysis and each speed bump still makes a big difference there. I hope we also get the rumored bump to 1GB RAM as that's another important limit for playing with data. Has anyone heard any reason to hope for improvement of IO perf of the flash storage?

What *could* excite would be a camera with real lenses. But the technology isn't remotely close to being able to do that yet.

Actually, had Apple stayed with the 4/4S thickness I'm sure they could have done even better with the camera. I, too, wish they'd kept more thickness and kept more battery. There are diminishing returns to thinness, and going thinner than my 4S doesn't really do much for me.

It's a testament to their engineering that they (allegedly) have improved the camera despite a thinner case, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was the optimal solution.

If could trade, just for argument's sake, another f/stop in speed or noise by returning to the 4/4S thickness I'd do it in a heartbeat. Ditto for 25% more battery life.

I suspect that part of the reason for no big Siri-esque show-stopper features is Apple finalizing it's divorce from Google. Having to build their own mapping solution was likely no small undertaking and cost a lot of resources.

Did they switch to Bing for search provider in iOS 6?

ClarkGoble wrote:

Had Apple been able to maintain operational secrecy the bigger screen size would have done that.

Not really. It's still smaller and lower resolution than its competitors.

One of my primary uses of iDevices is data analysis and each speed bump still makes a big difference there. I hope we also get the rumored bump to 1GB RAM as that's another important limit for playing with data.

Side question, does 32 bit Arm have anything like PAE? Smartphones are already at 2 GB so they're getting close to the wall.

What *could* excite would be a camera with real lenses. But the technology isn't remotely close to being able to do that yet.

Actually, had Apple stayed with the 4/4S thickness I'm sure they could have done even better with the camera. I, too, wish they'd kept more thickness and kept more battery. There are diminishing returns to thinness, and going thinner than my 4S doesn't really do much for me.

It's a testament to their engineering that they (allegedly) have improved the camera despite a thinner case, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was the optimal solution.

If could trade, just for argument's sake, another f/stop in speed or noise by returning to the 4/4S thickness I'd do it in a heartbeat. Ditto for 25% more battery life.

Have to agree with you there.

Thin phones are cool.. they look nice when I buy them...

And then I slap them into an armored case (finally "slimmed down" to a LifeProof case with my 4s), at which point the "slimness" is more or less out the window. I value functionality and *reasonable* aesthetic sacrifice, but once the aesthetics start to really cost me in terms of functionality (battery life, etc.) then I start getting frustrated. Just hoping they don't tip the balance TOO far.

I go bare. Can't deal with the phone turning my pockets inside out everytime I want to use it.

Maybe it's because I wear jeans most days, but never had that issue. Granted, the case I used when my kid was a baby wouldn't even fit in my pocket, so I wore it on my belt. I have more issues with my wallet sticking in my pocket than my phone.

I like them because there's just the slightest amount of tack to make them grippable, but not enough to invert your pocketses.

It doesn't add very much weight or thickness, but it _does_ provide some protection for the phone. I dropped my 4S from 3' onto concrete the other day, and the case shattered into 3 pieces while the phone was unharmed. $6 bought me a replacement case.

BTW the photo on that page is incorrect; the rear of the case is exactly as shown, but the front is actually just an ~1/8" lining around the perimeter. In fact from the front it looks a lot like a matte "Bumper" from Apple.

Kudos to Apple for mimicing Intel's Tick/Tock release strategy, especially considering it works perfectly with the 2 year contracts here in the US. 4S to 5? Sure, I can understand why that's not a big reason to upgrade (even though I'd disagree). 4 to the 5? Huge upgrade.

Kind of skipped a beat this time actually. The previous ones were mostly external and internal changes one at a time, this was the first to majorly change up both at once.

avenger512 wrote:

Serial wrote:

I suspect that part of the reason for no big Siri-esque show-stopper features is Apple finalizing it's divorce from Google. Having to build their own mapping solution was likely no small undertaking and cost a lot of resources.

Did they switch to Bing for search provider in iOS 6?

Doesn't iOS 5 give you a prompt on setup to choose? Might even be in alphabetical order too, Bing, Google, Yahoo.

MrRefinement wrote:

I go bare. Can't deal with the phone turning my pockets inside out everytime I want to use it.

Hell I got a case mostly for some color (creamsicle phone!). Most of the times I've dropped my 4 was...without the case on. Survived the worst ones (onto asphalt, stone, etc)* with minor nicks while a tumble off an exercise bike onto wood killed the clicking as of the volume buttons.

*Shirt pockets are useless device death traps. Speaking of which, my mom apparently dropped her iPhone in the toilet from her shirt pocket a few minutes ago.

my mom apparently dropped her iPhone in the toilet from her shirt pocket a few minutes ago.

I maintain a strict no-phones policy in the bathroom for this very reason. I'm frickin paranoid about sending the precious to a watery grave. And a no-shirt-pocket policy, for everything ever.

For some on-topic discussion, i'll be pre-ordering one tonight. I started waffling a bit over whether I really needed this or not, and do I have better things to spend that money on, and then I pulled out my phone to check the stats again and it took four tries to get the home button to work.

Yep, new phone time.

My little brother and an old roommate have both offered to buy the iPhone 4, knowing the home button is fucked. Another friend has experience disassembling iPhones and has offered to replace the home button for whoever buys it, but I have disposable income and an excuse for a new shiny.

Had Apple been able to maintain operational secrecy the bigger screen size would have done that.

Not really. It's still smaller and lower resolution than its competitors.

So, it would still have excited people as a difference. Look at all the hoopla when the rumors came out.

For the record I'm very glad they didn't go wider. It's getting to big to comfortably put in pockets as is. I can't figure out how those people with the big 4" Android phones don't get annoyed. If I want something big I'd just wait for the 7" iPad.

My point though is that the hardware is mature and so there won't be exciting advents in hardware.

Interestingly on the Mac line the retinal display was exciting and unexpected. But now we'll expect it gradually to cover other models. Even when the first 24" retinal display appears we won't be excited because retinal has already happened. It's been a while since a real exciting change other than the retinal on the laptop/desktop.

I do think there could be some exciting changes. If Apple comes out with built in GPS I'd be pretty dang excited for instance. Other than that I can't think of a lot more excitement that could happen given the state of technology for either phones or laptops.

You are aware that 2x the i5 CPU is pitiful and would not win against a quad core exynos? 2x the GPU probably would, but it's not "blowing past", though it's not relaly catch-up either. It's the usual iPhone emphasis on GPU over CPU, with a CPU that at best competes with 1.5ghz dual core A9 and has nothing on Quad Core A9 or Krait, and a GPU that is really good and will be best until the Adreno 320 comes out later this year.

Assuming that story is correct, that kills my jumping to Verizon from AT&T. AT&T hasn't been horrible, but the cost differential to maintain two plans (entire family is on AT&T) -- in addition to losing functionality -- is a deal-breaker for me. That seems like a curious decision by Apple and the carriers.

Aren't you already unable to do voice+data on Verizon with the existing iPhones? It seems like most/all other LTE phones on Verizon are able to manage it, but I can't get too worked up over Apple's lack of desire to make a bespoke iPhone just to get around Verizon's network issues. Doubly so when it isn't (IMO) a severe issue, and the issue will resolve itself eventually as voice over LTE rolls out.

Aren't you already unable to do voice+data on Verizon with the existing iPhones? It seems like most/all other LTE phones on Verizon are able to manage it, but I can't get too worked up over Apple's lack of desire to make a bespoke iPhone just to get around Verizon's network issues. Doubly so when it isn't (IMO) a severe issue, and the issue will resolve itself eventually as voice over LTE rolls out.

Yes, it's a shortcoming of existing iPhones on Verizon, but in my very limited understanding, that was a function of CDMA. LTE makes it possible, which is why there are several LTE smart phones that can do voice and data simultaneously on Verizon's network. I know that there are still network issues that complicate being able to do both, but it is now possible, and Apple decided not to solve the issue with the iPhone 5. I really find that baffling. I'll still be getting a 5 and moving to Verizon (for work reasons) but I actually do both simultaneously, so it will make the device marginally less useful to me.

I consider edge -> 3G a fundamental bump (as it made thing functionally possible that weren't before - in a timely manner). 3G -> LTE not so much as I haven't seen anything that really sells me the benefit of that.

Well it provides wifi like speed and latency, combined with more speed from the device itself it can be a pretty big deal if you're using the phone for browsing a lot.

It's faster than WiFi unless you have something like FTTH.

My experience was an iPad3 on At&t in the DC area. The display said "LTE" and I was seeing ~10MBit on average, 15 max. That was a couple of months ago so it may have changed since then (i turned off the data on mine). I think the caps on the data plans will really keep it form being transformative, but if you are seeing 60+ MBit real world it's significantly better than I thought.

japtor wrote:

Not necessarily this specifically, but generally I'd agree that software advances would be a bigger deal at this point, barring crazy future/unforeseen hardware stuff. Like your GPS accuracy example is ultimately just another spec bump without the accompanying software to take full advantage of it.

Agreed - software would be they key to completing the experience -- but the software can always be delivered later if the capability is there (though I doubt apple would settle for that - and rightly so for a headline feature).

brazuca wrote:

I'm honestly curious: what would have made you sit up and take notice? What would you imagine Apple could have possibly done to make you excited about this (or any) new phone?

Not the person you responded to, but I'll toss in my 0.02CI listed some examples at the top of the page -- but it boils down to something with enables me to do something I couldn't before (be it a new feature, or just improving an existing one to the extent that it is reborn"

And of course there is apple's own success for it to contend with. It has set the bar high and continually pushed the "magical experience", etc -- and when that magic isn't there people notice.

You are aware that 2x the i5 CPU is pitiful and would not win against a quad core exynos? 2x the GPU probably would, but it's not "blowing past", though it's not relaly catch-up either. It's the usual iPhone emphasis on GPU over CPU, with a CPU that at best competes with 1.5ghz dual core A9 and has nothing on Quad Core A9 or Krait, and a GPU that is really good and will be best until the Adreno 320 comes out later this year.

You're aware that the A6 is almost certainly a dual-core A15? It'll smoke a dual-core A9 at 1.5 GHz and should have a comfortable lead on Krait (aka A15-lite).