xDaunt, I got your point about adding the TC because of upgrades and I think it's very valid - didn't think about that, but phoenixes with +2 will also snipe queens REALLY fast (without upgrades you need 4, with +2 will 3 be enough? does anybody know?)

nevertheless while going for a run I thought about the exact same thing as:

Yeah, I typically see spore crawlers all over the zerg bases as soon as the phoenixes show up. This makes DT harassment ineffective.

this is why I usually prefer getting mass-stalkers with blink for harassment while adding the dark shrine and later the twilight council; I've tried managing two stalker control-group blink harass at different locations recently, it is insanely strong, but I keep fucking up my macro though (I don't want to get into 12/14 gate too much since zealots will be nerfed anyways and it doesn't really fit my playstyle)

but showing up with phoenixes is like begging the zerg to throw up sporecrawlers; ironically, the better your phoenix-harass works the worse will be the DT-harass...because the more spore-crawlers you can expect afterwards; of course I'm not trying to influence you to give up the build, at this stage of the game it's great that there are some who try out new stuff and don't just copy the things that already exist; but what do you think about going heavy with blink-stalkers instead of phoenixes? I am currently low diamond and don't run into many zergs who can hold this...but then I lose a couple of games to terrans and/or cheesers which influences my hidden rating and therefore won't play against better zergs; but do you think this could be viable on higher diamond too? because I don't want to get too involved with a build that has strong flaws against better players

On September 02 2010 03:04 xDaunt wrote:Here's one thing that I want to point out to those thinking that the zerg can hard counter this build by going roaches, banelings, corruptors, or any mixture of the three. What you're doing is not a hard counter to the build. At best, you're putting yourself on even footing with the protoss player by unlocking techs that can allow you to counter whatever force composition that the protoss eventually assembles. What makes this build so strong is its flexibility. When the initial phoenix flies over the zerg base, the protoss won't have committed heavily to any tech path or unit composition at that point. If the protoss sees roaches and banelings, he could very easily skip charge and get blink stalker/sentry instead.

Corruptors shut down colossi (and can usually take colossi out before they die to stalkers), roaches are a good all around unit for any composition while allowing agressive play the slower hydra does not, and banelings are a vasty underused unit against P (though not completely without reason).

That's all well and good, but there generally are no colossi in the build. You won't even see a colossus in any of the replays.

On September 02 2010 03:43 Bair wrote:This strategy seems to rely on a complete denial of scouting which is unrealistic since zerg has the best scouting in the game, and the assumption that the zerg will primarily mass one unit (hydra or muta, which is true of many zergs) without an attempt in unit diversity.

Where in the world are you getting this stuff from? In most of the replays, the zerg knows exactly what I am doing before I do it and can't stop it. In none of the replays does the zerg mass one unit. I listed all of the principals on which this strategy relies, and those two certainly don't appear on the list.

On September 02 2010 03:43 Bair wrote:In short, my issue with this build is that it seems the primary merit behind it is it gets wins through the zerg player's lack of skill, not because it is a overly strong PvZ build (though I will not deny it is solid).

Yeah, whatever....

Colossi, where did I say you had them in your build? The corruptors are there to make sure you do not transition to them, since many toss I have played love to when they see any significant amount of ground units.

See, you say those players could not stop it. Why not? Because they were unable to adapt from their mainstay builds against something meant to counter said builds. In short, a lack of skill.

But hey, to paraphrase Day[9], there is no point to being right on forums, I should just take what I know to bnet and win games. If you are so intent on the idea that this build is some sort of 100% zerg killer, good for you. I was trying to point out some weaknesses so the more open minded players would have an idea when to transition out so it does not cost them the game.

Yeah, I typically see spore crawlers all over the zerg bases as soon as the phoenixes show up. This makes DT harassment ineffective.

this is why I usually prefer getting mass-stalkers with blink for harassment while adding the dark shrine and later the twilight council; I've tried managing two stalker control-group blink harass at different locations recently, it is insanely strong, but I keep fucking up my macro though (I don't want to get into 12/14 gate too much since zealots will be nerfed anyways and it doesn't really fit my playstyle)

but showing up with phoenixes is like begging the zerg to throw up sporecrawlers; ironically, the better your phoenix-harass works the worse will be the DT-harass...because the more spore-crawlers you can expect afterwards; of course I'm not trying to influence you to give up the build, at this stage of the game it's great that there are some who try out new stuff and don't just copy the things that already exist; but what do you think about going heavy with blink-stalkers instead of phoenixes? I am currently low diamond and don't run into many zergs who can hold this...but then I lose a couple of games to terrans and/or cheesers which influences my hidden rating and therefore won't play against better zergs; but do you think this could be viable on higher diamond too? because I don't want to get too involved with a build that has strong flaws against better players

Well, the blink stalker vs phoenix debate is a bit of a Catch-22. Yes, the phoenixes do make DT harass harder because of the spore crawler reaction. However, you can't discount what you gain from using the phoenixes over blink stalkers:

I don't see why this build wouldn't work at the highest levels. I don't have highest APM or best mechanics. I'm only rated at ~1050 diamond. When I win, it's usually because I'm smarter than the other player (in game, anyway). I've found that this build is incredibly effective in practice and I certainly wouldn't have taken the time to present it if I didn't see a lot of potential for it. I'd love to see players better than me give the build a whirl against top zergs to see how it holds up. That's basically the point of the original post. If the build is going to break down, my guess is that it will break down at the tier 2 transition from phoenixes into chargelot/dark templar. So far, I haven't seen it happen.

On September 02 2010 04:41 Bair wrote:But hey, to paraphrase Day[9], there is no point to being right on forums, I should just take what I know to bnet and win games. If you are so intent on the idea that this build is some sort of 100% zerg killer, good for you. I was trying to point out some weaknesses so the more open minded players would have an idea when to transition out so it does not cost them the game.

I never said or represented to anyone that build is a "100% zerg killer." In your previous post, you weren't pointing out weaknesses in the build. You were making very ill-founded and insulting assumptions. You're doing the same here.

I don't see why this build wouldn't work at the highest levels. I don't have highest APM or best mechanics. I'm only rated at ~1050 diamond. When I win, it's usually because I'm smarter than the other player (in game, anyway). I've found that this build is incredibly effective in practice and I certainly wouldn't have taken the time to present it if I didn't see a lot of potential for it.

lol you misunderstood me, my question was refering to the blink-stalkers - if you think they could work too together with DT and a transition into charge+HT or if I'm missing something here concerning scouting, I normally scout with hallucination if I don't go for phoenixes

I'd love to see players better than me give the build a whirl against top zergs to see how it holds up. That's basically the point of the original post. If the build is going to break down, my guess is that it will break down at the tier 2 transition from phoenixes into chargelot/dark templar. So far, I haven't seen it happen.

yeah, it's kinda strange that many protoss-players don't use the harassment-potential of the race; there are rarely any warpprism-drops or hidden warp-ins (just imagine 4 zealots showing up in your mineral line out of nowhere in midgame.....some seconds later the same happens to your expo....) and you almost never see DTs; ironically, the only DT time I've seen DTs being used in a high-level game was vs terran; got owned by EMP

On September 02 2010 04:41 Bair wrote:But hey, to paraphrase Day[9], there is no point to being right on forums, I should just take what I know to bnet and win games. If you are so intent on the idea that this build is some sort of 100% zerg killer, good for you. I was trying to point out some weaknesses so the more open minded players would have an idea when to transition out so it does not cost them the game.

I never said or represented to anyone that build is a "100% zerg killer." In your previous post, you weren't pointing out weaknesses in the build. You were making very ill-founded and insulting assumptions. You're doing the same here.

Go troll elsewhere, please.

Well if this isn't a zerg killer, what is a solid counter for this build? It seems like you are intent to say no to the majority of ideas presented.

Very very good build for practicing micro in engagements. Feedback overseers from the slow-ass HT's, Snipe overseers with Phoenix micro (to prevent death by hydralisk) and stalker sentry focus fire them down. Then micro back your ranged and let the zealots/DT's go to work. Leads to very exciting fights at equal odds.

It's BETTER than robo-first because it has more options against mutalisk/ling play. Completely avoids the corruptor vs. Colossi pain.

It provides EXCELLENT map control. They cannot fight your army without morphing more overseers, which limits their engage-anywhere power. Phoenixes give you frequent looks into where the enemy is and what they have.

It uses DT's as part of a normal army! Not a revolutionary concept, but we've all seen DT's used to harass mineral lines as their primary use.

And WHO DOESN'T like killing Ultralisks with DTs and Zealots. Frequent ending for me, and as seen in xDaunt's replay.

You get to High Templar tech without dying to the roach/hydra pushes, and who doesn't like noisily popping infestors and overseers from range!

Additional note: Most zerg put their overseers into their main army group, so when they a-move into yours, the overseer flies ahead. This is your moment to zap with phoenix/HT/Stalker/Sentry and micro to put your DT's into max use.

Thanks for the writeup.

Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!

I don't see why this build wouldn't work at the highest levels. I don't have highest APM or best mechanics. I'm only rated at ~1050 diamond. When I win, it's usually because I'm smarter than the other player (in game, anyway). I've found that this build is incredibly effective in practice and I certainly wouldn't have taken the time to present it if I didn't see a lot of potential for it.

lol you misunderstood me, my question was refering to the blink-stalkers - if you think they could work too together with DT and a transition into charge+HT or if I'm missing something here concerning scouting, I normally scout with hallucination if I don't go for phoenixes

Oh, what your describing is basically Tozar's Ninja Build. He wrote a guide for it during beta. I personally don't use it because I'm not a fan of blinker stalker-centric builds. I don't know whether he's still using it in PvZ, but he's basically at the same rank that I am right now.

I don't really know what the current "state of the art" PvZ is at the highest levels because I haven't sought out any replays and the major tournaments haven't featured a lot of good PvZ action. Last I saw, it was still very stalker/sentry/colossus-centric.

On September 02 2010 04:41 Bair wrote:But hey, to paraphrase Day[9], there is no point to being right on forums, I should just take what I know to bnet and win games. If you are so intent on the idea that this build is some sort of 100% zerg killer, good for you. I was trying to point out some weaknesses so the more open minded players would have an idea when to transition out so it does not cost them the game.

I never said or represented to anyone that build is a "100% zerg killer." In your previous post, you weren't pointing out weaknesses in the build. You were making very ill-founded and insulting assumptions. You're doing the same here.

Go troll elsewhere, please.

Well if this isn't a zerg killer, what is a solid counter for this build? It seems like you are intent to say no to the majority of ideas presented.

I don't know whether there is a "solid counter" to the build. Again, the point of the build is to put the protoss player in a position where he can be very aggressive against the zerg at all times during the game and have the means to readily adapt his force to whatever the zerg does. Once the protoss player is in that position, the matchup becomes a battle of wits and tactics between the zerg and the protoss player. The better player should generally win. That said the basic force composition that I outlined above is very problematic for zergs for the reasons listed above. I'm interested in seeing how they adapt to it.

If there is a point where the build can be solidly countered, it will be at tier 2 as the protoss transitions from phoenixes into dark templar, and before high templar come online. In fact, this transition point really is the most important part of the build. The whole purpose for getting the DTs before high templar is to cut down or even eliminate the tier 2 window during which zerg have superiority over protoss forces. It may be that some clever zerg player will eventually find a way to punish protoss players for taking this shortcut. That said, I have yet to see it.

On September 02 2010 02:55 Bair wrote:I have had this tried out against me the last week, and it was not hard to counter imo.

Firstly, vs the kind of ground army you describe, banelings do terrible terrible damage. And for such a gas heavy army (stalker for 50, sentry for 100, dt for 125 I think) with so many light units (zealot, sentry, dt), you won't have the number of sentries you need while still having a healthy number of real combat units. Add in burrow (to wait out forcefields) and the gas-friendly roach, and before you have HT, there is no reliable way to deal with this force. Using the methods you describe. 2 gate can be hard to deal with, but 2 gate is not guarenteed vs an FE.

The second issue is phoenix are great units for harass and against muta, but can't do a thing to corruptors. I usually go ling/muta in ZvP, and if they go blind stargate, I just go roach/corruptor and laugh since you need roughly 2 phoenix to kill 1 corruptor. This means in your uber gas heavy build you have to double my gas investment to win the air battle, and if you do you lose the ground battle.

Third issue is rather minor since this is my personal taste. When my lair morphs, first thing I do is drop 100 gas for an overseer, both for scouting (usually scout a stargate before the first phoenix is out) and detection for observer hunting. As more zerg start doing this due to the prevalence of robo builds, DT harass becomes more difficult.

Just my 2 cents as a zerg player.

You don't mass phoenix. It's just a support unit. You get around 3-6 generally unless you need more vs mass mutas. If I saw a large corruptor army backed by roaches when going stargate opener I'd just kite your roaches to death to stalkers. Corruptors will never kill phoenixes unless the protoss player chooses to stay and fight due to the speed of the phoenix.

If one survives the T1 stage while teching up to T2 I'd think this build is really strong. Personally, I'm very fond of a chargelot/DT opening while either going stargate or robo later. And DTs are exeptionally strong in front lines as well with alot of Chargelots, I don't see why most people only use it as a harass unit. It fares quite well in combat with other units as they aren't easy to focus-fire while in a bundle of chargelots, and since the zealots will arrive at their targets first, DTs are unlikely to be focused.

But like some before me mentioned, the tech up to your fresh and rather interesting unit composition require a lot of gas. I think there's a certain window of opportunity for Z to strike before you reach all that. When you first push out, how are you supposed to defend against a baneling comp? You will most likely have enough gas for 2 or 3 DT, let alone now we're excluding charge and the initial phoenix. Very little will be left for sentries and stalkers which you REALLY need if Z goes baneling, or else you just gotta turtle, controlling very little of the map and eventually lose the macro game.

Or am I just wrong here? Great idea, btw...I really like the T3 stage of this build.

On September 02 2010 04:41 Bair wrote:But hey, to paraphrase Day[9], there is no point to being right on forums, I should just take what I know to bnet and win games. If you are so intent on the idea that this build is some sort of 100% zerg killer, good for you. I was trying to point out some weaknesses so the more open minded players would have an idea when to transition out so it does not cost them the game.

I never said or represented to anyone that build is a "100% zerg killer." In your previous post, you weren't pointing out weaknesses in the build. You were making very ill-founded and insulting assumptions. You're doing the same here.

Go troll elsewhere, please.

Well if this isn't a zerg killer, what is a solid counter for this build? It seems like you are intent to say no to the majority of ideas presented.

The point of this build is to prevent Muta/Ling domination of a Protoss player. Since you reference Day[9], he would call it a "force." By going Phoenix/DT, you are "forcing" them off of Muta/Ling. You don't win the game you just preclude them from performing a certain strategy that has certain difficulties. If they do something that this build wouldn't bode well against (like say Bane/Zerg/Roach), then you just mix-up your unit composition a bit.

But again, the main point is that Zerg -> Muta/Ling is in the dominant position over Protoss. This is designed to force them off of that build and be reactive and now since they are building units to counter Protoss, we are controlling unit composition.

On September 02 2010 06:27 SirNeshorn wrote:But like some before me mentioned, the tech up to your fresh and rather interesting unit composition require a lot of gas. I think there's a certain window of opportunity for Z to strike before you reach all that. When you first push out, how are you supposed to defend against a baneling comp? You will most likely have enough gas for 2 or 3 DT, let alone now we're excluding charge and the initial phoenix. Very little will be left for sentries and stalkers which you REALLY need if Z goes baneling, or else you just gotta turtle, controlling very little of the map and eventually lose the macro game.

Or am I just wrong here? Great idea, btw...I really like the T3 stage of this build.

I don't see banelings as being too problematic for this specific build. If you're worried about a traditional, early game baneling bust, this build is no more susceptible to it than any other protoss build. If you're worried about some kind of midgame baneling ambush that occurs as you leave your base with your army, you should be able to scout it with your first phoenix before you have invested any serious amount of gas into anything other than a stargate, a phoenix, and a twilight council. This is a very small expenditure considering that you'll be on two bases at this point. From here, you can easily adapt on the fly to whatever you think is appropriate to defeat the banelings, such as sentry/stalker.

Dude, right on time.. I've been having so much trouble with muta ling! Now I have a nice guide to steer me in the right direction. I already asked a few friends who are 900ish zerg who told me to get phoenix and colo or storm.. But now i have a much more formatted post I can come back to.

"The best way to improve is to play one matchup on one map doing one strategy.. if you are good at one strategy you are a good player, if you are okay at many strategies you are an okay player at best" -Day[9] 181

On September 02 2010 06:27 SirNeshorn wrote:But like some before me mentioned, the tech up to your fresh and rather interesting unit composition require a lot of gas. I think there's a certain window of opportunity for Z to strike before you reach all that. When you first push out, how are you supposed to defend against a baneling comp? You will most likely have enough gas for 2 or 3 DT, let alone now we're excluding charge and the initial phoenix. Very little will be left for sentries and stalkers which you REALLY need if Z goes baneling, or else you just gotta turtle, controlling very little of the map and eventually lose the macro game.

Or am I just wrong here? Great idea, btw...I really like the T3 stage of this build.

I don't see banelings as being too problematic for this specific build. If you're worried about a traditional, early game baneling bust, this build is no more susceptible to it than any other protoss build. If you're worried about some kind of midgame baneling ambush that occurs as you leave your base with your army, you should be able to scout it with your first phoenix before you have invested any serious amount of gas into anything other than a stargate, a phoenix, and a twilight council. This is a very small expenditure considering that you'll be on two bases at this point. From here, you can easily adapt on the fly to whatever you think is appropriate to defeat the banelings, such as sentry/stalker.

Well, I'm not sure about how 1100 diamond zerg players operate, but at my level (~600 diamond) burrowed baneling traps can be very nasty. Seeing as the robo is obsolete, I fear that your initial push could be screwed pretty badly, although your phoenix might get lucky and see if Z got burrow up. The early game baneling bust I rarely see as a problem anyway, and I don't think this build is weaker than any other against it as well as I think it relies more on building positioning than unit composition.