Mike Cash wrote:A very important thing to keep in mind is that while I am fully capable of sitting down and bitching about the country and the people for hours on end, I do still live here by my own free choice and have done so for longer than many of our friends here at TJP have been on the planet. Use that as a filter when reading the negative.

And this isn't a rare anomaly or anything, either. I can't even count the Americans who do nothing but rant about the sorry state of their (our) own nation. But there's no denying that they're relatively content with it. I don't even bother anymore with suggesting that they move somewhere else; I've never got anything but a blank stare in reply.

In general, though, I'd say an in-depth study of crime, or of politics, or of history, or of the current headlines, can really make a guy hate humanity. Regardless of location.

RpgN wrote:Well, by reading your comments guys, it's seems like it's impossible to become good friends with the Japanese people.

Well...it is difficult, especially if you are around Japanese who are not used to foreigners. A common experience that some people have when they come to Japan is that when they first get there, they're surrounded by adoring fans -- everyone is friendly, they get shown around, they get invited everywhere, etc. But as time goes on, you begin to notice that you don't really have any Japanese *friends*. What you have are a combination of people being polite to you, people interested in gaijin, and people maintaining a friendly professional relationship. But when you try to take things further, there's a barrier there that can be difficult to cross.

This was basically my experience, and it's part of the reason I'm back in the US. Keanotron seems to have a different experience -- more power to him.

(What I really hated were the Idealistic Asshole gaijin -- the ones who delighted in telling me that all my negative experiences in Japan were my fault. I didn't know enough Japanese. I didn't understand enough about Japanese culture. I was too critical of chopsticks-and-Japanese compliments. The Japanese are perfect people and you should be down on your knees thanking them that they even let you come to their country. etc.)

There are a lot of things about Japan that I like, and a lot of things I don't like -- unfortunately one of the things I don't like happened to be the majority of Japanese people I met. I'll be going back in 2.5 years or so for PhD research; maybe I'll have a better experience at a university than in an inaka bumhole.

Yudan Taiteki wrote:This was basically my experience, and it's part of the reason I'm back in the US. Keanotron seems to have a different experience -- more power to him.

Oh no, it was exactly the same for me. I had a lot of fun when I first arrived and started making friends--of course I was limited to people who spoke good English and were therefore (by default) interested in me only because I'm a native speaker.

Then as I started learning more, I went through a period of deep depression, when I realized the truth about the shallowness of my current friends, but couldn't speak Japanese quite well enough to become good friends with someone who has no interest in studying English. That was a very lonely 6 months.

I didn't start to really enjoy myself until maybe 6-10 months ago, when I was finally able to break free and make friends who were interested in me for me and not for English. So, my advice to you burnt-out assholes out there is to find Japanese friends who have no real interest in learning English (they might say they're interested, but if they can't hold a simply conversation that's good!). That way you will be seen as a real person and not just a free English teacher.

The reason I was surprised at Mike's responses was that he has been here a long time and is perfectly capable of finding real, fulfilling friendships, like I have.

Last edited by keatonatron on Wed 01.10.2007 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

keatonatron wrote:The reason I was surprised at Mike's responses was that he has been here a long time and is perfectly capable of finding real, fulfilling friendships, like I have.

Yeah, but please note that I didn't gripe about people I know. I griped about the people I don't know.

At any rate, I dug up yet another old (1999) usenet thread which had some very good posts relating to this topic and addressing specifically some of the things mentioned in the last several posts here. Those with the time and inclination may find it worth a read:

It was kind of hard to see that in the posts you quoted though. All I got out of them was "The more you know about the Japanese the more you realize they're assholes, and the only way I can stand it is to stick my head in the sand as much as possible".

After you explained that you were the most upset with drivers and criminals, it made more sense.

P.S. That Ryan fellow seems like a smart guy.

Last edited by keatonatron on Wed 01.10.2007 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Great thread everyone. I really don't have much to say, but i'm just absorbing everything everyone is saying. I guess I'm seeing all kinds of sides of this topic and without me being in Japan, its enough to realize what goes on. I see the positive and the negative and I think that what Keat has said about finding your "True Friends" over there is essential. To know that some of them are nice to you out of politeness is hard because you won't know if it is genuine or not.

I still plan on visiting and I've lately thought about Kyouto with all its history. I know Mike said its different taking a vacation there opposed to living there, but I guess it would at least be worth a shot to at least visit. As for living there, I really would have to find a good enough job, but that would be limited because of my speaking ability. I continue to teach myself so, maybe that'll be enough... Maybe it won't.

Lastly, I think its great that i'm hearing about all of this, because I'll have the hindsight when I'm actually IN Japan and I'll know what to expect before I get there. Anyway, gotta go and thanks again...

I dunno...all I saw in his posts was more of the same "it's all your fault, the Japanese are perfect, you just don't understand them or their culture, leave if you don't like it" talk that I heard in Japan from the Idealistic Assholes.

Maybe I have been fortunate. I am an avid cyclist, I ride with the local clubs, race keirin and have formed what I think is as close as I can get scenario.

There was a period much like Yudan and Keat described, whereby countless times I was down until I closely began montitoring Japanese-Japanese relationships and discovered what I would normally classify friendships as very different.

From my perspective:
It seems everything must be planned, they must meet at such and such time and such and such place 1 or 2 weeks from now. I've never heard of them undertaking the pop in, ringing their friends out of sheer boredom and asking what they are doing that night, speaking to anyone they don't know even if the queue at supermarket is long, and moreover the strangest aspect to me at the time was no hanging out. There must be a reason to get together. So many times I invited the lads after racing back to my house for a beer on summer afternoon, only to be turned down. I used to take very personally, until I found that even with each other they don't do it. Even worse if there is a woman. She thinks you are inviting her back to your house for a shag or for some other trivial reason as opposed to hanging out.

As long as I see Japanese-Japanese relationships this way, I don't feel so bad.

Don't you just hate that kind? Sadly 3/4 of my Japanese class are like that... actually one boy did his speech assessment in English class about how Japan was the best country in the world. No kidding. It makes Japanese class difficult... people who've had spend any decent amount of time around Japanese fanboys/fangirls will understand why.

Anyway, getting back on topic!

I was reading over a few articles recently and one indicated that professionals of the career i intend to follow are both payed allot more in Japan as well as more perks. Normally i wouldn't consider doing something as big as moving country based purely on money and work perks but when the difference is as great as it seems like it will be i can't help but be interesting in at least looking at it....

So here's my actual question: How are professionals (I'm talking White-collar workers) treated in Japan? Same as all other Gaijin? Better? Worse?

I remember someone saying in another post they pretended to be a company employee instead of an English teacher and was taken aback by the difference in the way he was treated, is there any one who has had/seen similar things?

Yudan Taiteki wrote:I dunno...all I saw in his posts was more of the same "it's all your fault, the Japanese are perfect, you just don't understand them or their culture, leave if you don't like it" talk that I heard in Japan from the Idealistic Assholes.

I just liked the "You accept everyone, except those who don't" bit. It seemed to be a very plausible explanation, and a common stumbling block for many people. No matter how accepting you may be, you simply can't change the fact that others might not be as accepting. Some people start to think "I accept them, why can't they accept me?" and get frustrated.

Kagemaru wrote:Leaving a miserable gap of 2+ years?

Take a closer look:
"I had a lot of fun when I first arrived and started making friends"
"Then as I started learning more... That was a very lonely 6 months."
"I didn't start to really enjoy myself until maybe 6-10 months ago"

To recap:
I arrived in Japan and started having fun. Of course it was only fun because it was new and exciting. Compared to what I know now, I wouldn't call it real "fun".

1.5 years later I went back to America for school, and returned 6 months after that to find all my "fake" friends from before were no longer interested in me, as I had become "too Japanese" for them.