Quote:Maybe I just don't understand the Satanic Magic...But to me it seems moderately silly to put faith in a magic.

There is no faith in Satanism - and none is necessary in the understanding (or application) of Satanic Magic when the results speak clearly for themselves. The text is clear. Your approach in reading it apparently is wrong; maybe askew due to your xian past.

As others have suggested - don't knock it until you try it.

Skepticism is a good thing. But as has been stated time and time again - Satanism is a religion and part of this religion is ritual Magic.

Now, I will gladly lay down my club and step away from this dead horse.

Edited by ThaDeej (02/16/0706:29 PM)

_________________________"Good and Evil liveth only in men's minds,"Ragnar Redbeard

No I don't equate magic or witchcraft with devil worship, on any level.

The reason I feel the connection to Satanism is because of the connection I feel to "Satan". He represents, to me, the carnal man, and acceptence without judgement, and with him representing man, to me, he represents complete self acceptence. Accepting yourself, your desires, your lusts, and the things that bring you joy...happiness in indulgence...not compulsion. That is why I call myself a Satanist and not just a mere athiest.

In all reality, the reason I can consider myself a satanist without fully believing in the ritual and magic, as more than just a way to focus your mind and free yourself of barriers that trap your mind, is because, just as a buddhist holds buddah in high asteem and as the archetype of what they follow...Satan holds that position in my mind. He represents to me the path that I follow. Perhaps my kind of Satanism isn't LaVeyin Satanism, but I do call myself a Satanist because that is my archetype.

I am not going to rub your nose in your own **it, but it seems you are misunderstanding quite a bit here.

From what I see here it appears that you are trying to "believe" and put "faith" into the equation. Why?

Is the Satanic Bible the only one of Dr. LaVey's works you own?If so, I would suggest purchasing the rest of his works and study them in detail. Also, this message board is massive. There is an abundance of knowledge here take advantage of it.

Magic and Ritual are very personal. Something that can't be handed to you. Stop "believing" and keep reading.

That is exactly how I feel about Satanism; as a philosophy it seems to be saying exactly what I have always thought about the world and other people, in a very well thought out and rational way, but a a religion is doesn't seem to be much better or well thought out than any of the others. One of the main reasons I have been an Atheists all my life is because I am a strong believer in naturalism, that all things can be explained by the laws of nature and there is no such thing as the supernatural. But to me magic seems to completely go against these rational principals - the same principals that drew me to the philosophy behind Satanism. There is, as far as I can tell, absolutely no reason to believe in magic other than blind faith.

So until someone can give me some proof that magic does work Satanism will remain as just a philosophy to me - a very good philosophy, but a philosohy none the less. And I think there must be many more 'potential Satanists' out there that share this same view, due to the type of intelligent person that the philosophy of Satanism appeals to.

Quote:Someone said that if I don't understand the magical side of Satanism, then I dont understand some 40 pages of TSB.

No, I was pointing out rather the opposite. The Book of Lucifer, as central to the book as it may be, still only makes up about 60 pages of the entire book (less than that if you leave out its last chapter, "The Black Mass", as it's not strictly part of the "philosophy side"). I was incorrect about the initial figure of 40, but regardless, the point is that it only makes up a fraction of the book. As I said in an article I wrote not too long ago (for The Ninth Gate magazine), there's a reason why the book is much longer than that. To say "I don't understand the magic part" is to throw away over half of the book. And if you extend that to throwing away "The Satanic Witch" and "The Satanic Rituals", then it begins to suspiciously look like claiming to accept a religion where you throw away half of its canon.

Look, I've seen the same question and the same claims countless times before. "How can you have that magic stuff in there if Satanism is supposed to be about rationality and realism?" Ritual is a TOOL. And again, ritualized expression has been with humans forever. To quote the book, "Man needs ceremony and ritual, fantasy and enchantment".

Quote:I understand the magic ritual as fun psychodram, and as a way to focus your energy towards your goals, and how keeping your energy focused on your goal can work positive...

Then what's your hang-up?

Quote:What I don't get is how it is believed that the focusing of your energy can change things to your will.

Quote: There is, as far as I can tell, absolutely no reason to believe in magic other than blind faith.

I know I'm going back over ground already covered in this thread - but all I can say is reread the appropriate sections of TSB and try it for yourself.

Quote:So until someone can give me some proof that magic does work Satanism will remain as just a philosophy to me - a very good philosophy, but a philosohy none the less. And I think there must be many more 'potential Satanists' out there that share this same view, due to the type of intelligent person that the philosophy of Satanism appeals to.

I don't think anyone here will try to 'prove' to you that magic works - it really is a 'hands on' thing. You try it a few times, and if you get results, then, at least for yourself, what more 'proof' do you need?

Quote:I don't think anyone here will try to 'prove' to you that magic works - it really is a 'hands on' thing. You try it a few times, and if you get results, then, at least for yourself, what more 'proof' do you need?

It is perfecectly justifiable to say you don't belive in something just because it goes against everything you know, without actually trying it. After all, I could tell you jumping off the Empire State Building won't kill you...

Quote:but a a religion is doesn't seem to be much better or well thought out than any of the others.

If that's the case, then it would seem that Satanism isn't for you.

Quote:One of the main reasons I have been an Atheists [sic]all my life is because I am a strong believer in naturalism, that all things can be explained by the laws of nature and there is no such thing as the supernatural.

Yeah, and?

Quote:But to me magic seems to completely go against these rational principals - the same principals that drew me to the philosophy behind Satanism. There is, as far as I can tell, absolutely no reason to believe in magic other than blind faith.

You said you read TSB "from cover to cover". But to me it sounds like you completely missed the boat on the Book of Belial.

Quote:So until someone can give me some proof that magic does work Satanism will remain as just a philosophy to me -

Your view on Satanism one way or another has no bearing on whether or not Satanism is a religion. It IS a religion. That is a fact. It is a clearly defined philosophy with dogma and organized ceremony. That, by definition, is a religion.

As for requiring "proof", first and foremost, what do I care? It's not like Satanism is out to get converts. Second of all, how can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature a subjective experience?

Have you ever performed the standard Satanic ritual described in the book? If not, then how do you expect anybody to take you seriously when you say you're "looking for proof"? Reread the definition of "magic" as its given in the book.

Quote:I think there must be many more 'potential Satanists' out there that share this same view, due to the type of intelligent person that the philosophy of Satanism appeals to.

I prefer to call that group "uncreative, unimaginative atheists with no organization skills".

Quote:It is perfecectly justifiable to say you don't belive in something just because it goes against everything you know, without actually trying it. After all, I could tell you jumping off the Empire State Building won't kill you...

But, unless you 'believe' something 'bad' will happen to you if you give magic a go what have you got to lose?

...And if I didn't believe jumping off a high building would probably kill me (despite the evidence availible of numerous others who have tried it and died) I would be at liberty to give it a go.....

What I find so deliciously ironic about all this is the fact that -- as so many others have painstakingly pointed out -- no "blind faith" of any kind is required, but rather scrupulous pragmatism, instead.

Satanic magic is not a question of "belief" or "disbelief", but a question of what works and what doesn't work.

Satanists practice Satanic magic because it benefits them to do so.

It's quite logical, really. And hey, nobody's saying you have to do something you don't want to. That's your business.

However, quite a few people are pointing out the fact that if you wish to dismiss Satanic magic without knowing what it actually is, you're doing so out of ignorance, not because you possess some superior grasp of the subject.

I recommend studying the matter more attentively.

What you discover may pleasantly surprise you.

_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.