That being said, I'd still like to see the health myself. I've had people telling me the health of the adds is the same on both versions.

You can look at WoL of kills (which is how I confirmed it), analyze damage done by target. I just compared the total values. If you want the actual mob hp, divide by however many adds are expected. The main ones will be 3.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

25man having 3times more adds, or something in that range and less health should have been done, instead of more hp

No they don't?

---------- Post added 2013-03-07 at 11:22 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Aquamonkey

You can look at WoL of kills (which is how I confirmed it), analyze damage done by target. I just compared the total values. If you want the actual mob hp, divide by however many adds are expected. The main ones will be 3.

I did that earlier. I was just getting some weird numbers that didn't make sense to me. Thanks for your help though.

Immagine if 25 man's has 2.5 the amount of adds they currently do! 2 priests at the start for door 2.. 30 seconds later 4 jump in! Thats only doubeling the adds not even 2.5 the amount compared to how many more peopel 25's have to focus on just the "mechanics"! This is where the gear check / dps check comes into play for 10 mans because if you have the gear to burn one down fast then your back to the same ratio that the 25's are for interupting and following the mechanics!

That is the main issue atm... it's a mechanical fight but you have less people to perform the mechanics on 10 than 25 with the same number of adds. Either increase the adds to 2.5 the amount they are now in 25 or reduce the adds in 10 and I'm sure you would see the % even out on successfull kills.

You are over simplifying 25m. First it would be 10x easier to have 2.5 times the mobs in 25m with the same hp as 10m because you could AE them all down before they got a single cast off. 3x the hp with the same number of adds is the proper way to do it with preserving the difficulty. There is also get a crap ton of stuff to dispel in 25m and I seriously doubt there is a big difference proportionally with dispel numbers and unless you are running a couple MW monks you can't really get rid of it all easily either.

Also you said:

then priests overlap..then interupts get out of sync and BAM mechanics out the door wipe!

Thats just mechanics... your interrupters just need to learn how to interrupt 2 mobs (each only takes 1 interrupter). One person switched to kick the new add, rest kill the old add. 25m or 10m or 40m it doesn't matter... 1 mob = 1 interrupter. Unless you are running absolutely 0 melee, you have 2 interrupters.

Dps isn't your issue. You need tigher control over the adds (and maybe them to be grouped up better for more efficient AE). All you are talking about is cheesing an encounter by out gearing it. You can always do that. If you have a good strat and solid control of the adds, this fight is not overtuned.

Once we had our monk heal it (revival after killing all the venom priests on door 2 is really REALLY damn useful) and popped hero to clear the door 3 adds easily finished the fight. I don't get why they made doors 2 and 3 so much harder than any other part of the fight. It doesn't seem overtuned, it just is tuned fairly tightly so that if your raid is an avg of 490-495 it is gonna be fairly tough. Once people get up to 500-505 it should be as much of a joke as jin'rokh.

Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal

Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.

Originally Posted by MerinPally

If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

We killed him last night on 25m with 3 tanks (1 designated to adds only) and it went pretty smooth after making that change. One of the most important things to do is interrupt the priests/effusions as best you can because it saves you a ton of raid damage and dispelling. The frost door is fairly easy you just have to stack them up good and aoe them down. I felt like the biggest hurdle of the fight was getting the priests down ASAP and kiting them slowly so the poison on the ground doesn't cause a clusterfuck.

Please do not make a 2-line post with your 16/16H (or anything similar with a 500+ ilvl) character saying "Not overtuned; 1-shot him". It's either bragging or trolling and neither is welcome. Thanks.

What a nice attitude you have there. How long will it take you people to understand these bosses aren't tuned for people who barely managed to get LFR equipped? If you can't give him 500+ ilvl then you're not supposed to down him, simple as that. The game would be even more horrible if there wasn't a step up in demands for every content. It's been like that for ages and for a reason. Deal with it.

What I mean is that you shouldn't be expecting to progress in T15 if you haven't pushed any heroics in T14 yet. I don't mean farm T14 AND progress on T15 in the same week (unless you have time for that), sorry if that was unclear. But people are in here at 12/16 normal, 15/16 normal, etc. expecting to move on to the next tier because Blizzard made Cataclysm's progression system (and most of Wrath's) absolutely retarded. People should still be progressing in T14 heroics, and maybe killing JinRohk on the side since hes undertuned. My guild was only 6/16H last tier (5/6H MV 1/6H HoF) and we downed Horridon on 10 man (got consistently to last phase on 25 man but didnt have time to kill him). If your guild goes back, kills some bosses in H HoF or H Terrace with the nerfs, and bonus rolls with the absurd amount of charms you get now, you should be geared enough to kill Horridon in a week or two. Definitely within the month you'll have the gear to roll through the next few bosses.
Stop thinking of the tiers separately. They're not anymore, its continuous progression in a sense now, like BC was (not quite as harsh though).

Totally agree with this. My guild started raiding seriously in only the last 2 months of 5.1 (raiders not showing up/retiring/xferring/whatever during the leveling period or just after it) which had us seriously underpowered for most of the tier. Then we got some recruits and blew our way to Sha before 5.2 dropped.

After spending a night wiping on Horridon after 3 shotting Jin, I just sat back and put it to my group as to what was going wrong (we were getting to the 2nd door and then things just got messy from there even after we destroyed it). Even swapped myself out (Monk tank) for our DK to see if maybe he was less spiky than myself. Even with interrupts going well, we were just getting overwhelmed since many of us were still in Raid finder gear and one or two blues.

So I just told them if we're doing what we're supposed to be doing and things aren't getting better then it's just a gear issue, since we'd rushed through the tier to try and get our guild ranking out of the gutter and didn't spend much time farming after clearing (Only cleared MSV 3 times before deciding to just stop, and HoF twice before 5.2) So now for the next week or three we'll be clearing HoF and ToES before venturing back into ToT to see if the upgrades help with getting the adds down at a more controllable rate.

Last edited by RyanEX; 2013-03-07 at 11:56 PM.

STRESS
The confusion caused when one's mind
overrides the body's basic
desire to choke the living shit out of
some jerk who desperately needs it

What a nice attitude you have there. How long will it take you people to understand these bosses aren't tuned for people who barely managed to get LFR equipped? If you can't give him 500+ ilvl then you're not supposed to down him, simple as that. The game would be even more horrible if there wasn't a step up in demands for every content. It's been like that for ages and for a reason. Deal with it.

While it's expected for there to be a check boss I don't think people were expecting it to be the second boss in a tier of twelve. That said it is annoying to see people complaining about it already since that's just the first step towards calling for a nerf. However, there is no need to flaunt a 16/16 HM kill count. On some fights gear makes gimmicks a joke since you can just power through them. And Horridon is one of them.

STRESS
The confusion caused when one's mind
overrides the body's basic
desire to choke the living shit out of
some jerk who desperately needs it

So we killed it tonight being a 4/16HC guild in tier 14. Edit - We're 490 - 500 ilevel

Since the first gate is not troubling people I'll start after that.

General info is we only tank swop once each gate is finished and we tank the boss maybe 20 yards away to keep the add area more uncluttered. Its hard to see sandtraps and new adds when the bosses arse is filling 80% of the screen.

- 2nd gate we assigned an interupter to the first priest. When next 2 spawn we have an interupter on each priest.
- Tank picks up the bloodlords and stuns on them where possible to prevent the charge that gives the bleeds.
- Dinomancer spawns and we have a 3rd interupter assigned here.
- By now the tank is kiting a bit just to keep people moving away from the effusion pools.
- The key to this for us is interupting and focussing down the priests, it really cuts down on the dispels.

3rd gate (Lust here)
- Stay stacked as far as possible since the adds here don't all have aggro tables.
- We prio'd the warlords since they drop the frozen orbs and place a healing debuff on the tank thats quite nasty.
- Kite heavily to avoid the frozen orbs

Amani (4th gate)
- We prio the flamecasters
- Tank picks up the bears and tanks them facing away from the raid since they cleave
- Kill a bear and then its shammy, we didn't want 2 shammys up at once since the totems / chain lightning and hex etc is a pita
- Rinse repeat, as the phase is winding down kite the boss back to the middle where its clean.

Phase 5
- Nuke the wargod down REALLY quickly, his cry or w/e it is does a lot of raid hurt if he doesn't die quickly.
- After this its tank and spank just being careful to avoid the swipes that follow the charges. Tanks are p spikey with the triple puncture but if you have time left on the enrage and get into this phase cleanly it should be a kill.

However, what do you recommend in place of a tank healer in 10? Just ignore the tanking in the middle part and bring him to the adds?

We kept getting tank deaths trying to juggle intense raid healing/dispels and tank healing with two tanks who weren't within 80 yards of each other (had to move to heal one or the other).

Yeah that is what I would suggest. You can tank him pretty close to the adds but faced so his smashes don't bother you. This does add an additional mechanic to deal with as he is then close enough that when he focuses on some one and smashes shortly after, if they do not turn him, it will hit your raid. The raid takes far more damage than the tanks so I don't see it being a good idea if you need healing to keep the boss that far out.

The only time I really saw the tank on horridron get pounded was when the other guy was down AE'ing everything pretty bad and when he enrages when his friend dies, so I think putting him 80 yards away where his healer can't help out is potentially a bad idea. Also having him use cooldowns about halfway through door 2 (when the double priests happen) so that his healer can focus a lot on the raid would help out a bit.

Honestly, I would say the whole leave him in the middle with a healer is a strat for people that are over geared and have the dps/hps to do the adds with essentially less than a full raid. Thats just my opinion after a grand total of 1 kills though (we didn't do that either).

Looking at wowprogress, 62% of 25 man guilds that have cleared the first boss have also cleared Horridon, whereas for 10 man it's about 32%. This to me suggests some sort of difficulty imbalance, most likely caused by raid composition and availability of interrupt and dispel mechanics.

We ran with three heals (priest, shammy, druid) and we had a hard time on the second door, I think due to dispels and possibly interrupts. I think that perhaps 2 healing might be the way to go as our dps was good overall, but perhaps adding another will cut down on raid damage.

I think people should also put how many attempts you have on horridon 10. For example my guild was 2/16 heroic, we got 15 pulls in two days and were in phase 3 the last two when it got to be to late. I fully expect a kill tonight. Wiping about 20 times on a boss should not a big deal, however with this new LFR attitude it seems to be better to just cry and whine for nerfs after one wipe then to sit back and fix what went wrong.