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The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud. This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.

That is completely false. More people raid (especially at a high level) on only a single, or sometimes 2 toons, though many of them have many many alts. That is the problem with guaging by percent of characters instead of percent of accounts.

If that were the case, then why don't more developers reveal this information in order to sell their penchant for raid content? Why reveal it in the way they have so far, when they usually try to reveal things in the best light possible to justify their reasons for focusing on specific content for end game.

Why don't you ask them? Most developers are stupid in the first place. Case in point to all the WoW clones that fail to capture what made WoW a success and continue to put out utter crap year after year.

And to throw your tactic right back at you. Why do developers continue to make raiding a big deal and continue to spend so much time and effort into designing new and more raids if only such a small portion of their players ever experience it? Obviously because a hell of a lot more than 25% people experience the raids.

This is absolute fact. Especially since the implementation of LFR. I would be shocked if the exact opposite weren't true, and 25% of accounts didn't do raids. Heck probably less than that.

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I LOVE the fact that there is no raiding per se. The WoW model of end-game raids being the be-all and end-all is not a good thing for many players, IMO. A few players/guilds figure out how to do the raid, and then the other 99% get to 'stand there, do this, dont do this, move on, rinse and repeat'. MMOs can be so much more than that; it takes a lot of the creativity and individualism out of end-game play IMO. I dont mind others doing raids but I dont see why raids should get give better loot than solo/small group encounters of great difficulty, or PvP/AvA loot. Just because WoW did it that way and many players learned to play MMOs based on that, doesnt make it best, or necessary. Its great IMO that ESO will offer an alternative to the WoW endgame.

The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud. This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.

That is completely false. More people raid (especially at a high level) on only a single, or sometimes 2 toons, though many of them have many many alts. That is the problem with guaging by percent of characters instead of percent of accounts.

If that were the case, then why don't more developers reveal this information in order to sell their penchant for raid content? Why reveal it in the way they have so far, when they usually try to reveal things in the best light possible to justify their reasons for focusing on specific content for end game.

Why don't you ask them? Most developers are stupid in the first place. Case in point to all the WoW clones that fail to capture what made WoW a success and continue to put out utter crap year after year.

And to throw your tactic right back at you. Why do developers continue to make raiding a big deal and continue to spend so much time and effort into designing new and more raids if only such a small portion of their players ever experience it? Obviously because a hell of a lot more than 25% people experience the raids.

This is absolute fact. Especially since the implementation of LFR. I would be shocked if the exact opposite weren't true, and 25% of accounts didn't do raids. Heck probably less than that.

No its not fact. The raid end-game is there because some players expect it (due to WoW) and because most games do not offer an alternative end-game model. ESO is trying to offer an alternative, which IMO is a great idea. And BTW, its not true that 25% of players do the hardest end-game raids. A much smaller player base does them. Usually the game loses many of its more casual players by then, who quit after levelling up or level an alt instead of end-game raids. I understand more WoW players do the raids now, but only because they have watered them down and made them more accessible to more players other than the hard-core.

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The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud. This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.

That is completely false. More people raid (especially at a high level) on only a single, or sometimes 2 toons, though many of them have many many alts. That is the problem with guaging by percent of characters instead of percent of accounts.

If that were the case, then why don't more developers reveal this information in order to sell their penchant for raid content? Why reveal it in the way they have so far, when they usually try to reveal things in the best light possible to justify their reasons for focusing on specific content for end game.

Why don't you ask them? Most developers are stupid in the first place. Case in point to all the WoW clones that fail to capture what made WoW a success and continue to put out utter crap year after year.

And to throw your tactic right back at you. Why do developers continue to make raiding a big deal and continue to spend so much time and effort into designing new and more raids if only such a small portion of their players ever experience it? Obviously because a hell of a lot more than 25% people experience the raids.

I'd not say stupid, as much as inexperienced in dealing with all of the variables involved. Not to mention, that its typically the suits who make many of the decisions that result in clones. The suits are typically the direct representatives of the investors (or publisher), and tend to be quite risk adverse. Thus they look at what has been a success before, and attempt to follow it. Its ironic, that such a focus tends to result in one failed game after another.

As for raiding, I suspect that one would find that games that have a heavy raid focus, tend to have head Dev's or a raiding faction, driving the internal development policy focus. Even though only a small fraction of the general player base has any real interest in raiding. Look at WoW's attempt to spread raiding to a larger percentage of their player base, with the LFR system, as an example.

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Originally posted by morbidlymystic

Faming mats, crafting, and pvp are your idea of endgame? Well eve already has that endgame, so how is this revolutionary? In fact, just about every game has those mechanics...yet they aren't considered end game by anyone.

The game will rise and fall like SWTOR unless there is a real end game available. The game has no chance without some real end game content like raids. If you want a mediocre game like Eve, over the next gen BIG MMO, then there isn't much to say. Its just sad.

Also with LFR basically everyone can, and most do do the raids. They might not be in heroic, but they shouldn't be doing heroic. That is a mode too hard for them, and there is nothing wrong with that. Actually, even heroic raids get nerfed to where casuals can do it at the end of the expansions. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about! You are just whining, because you can't do the raids at the same time as the best guilds can. Why are you entitiled do to something at the same time and rate as a group who plays much better than you? Makes no sense in life in general.

What other "real" endgame content is there? You said "like raids" which I take to mean that raids are an example of one type of endgame content. And you ruled out farming mats, crafting and PVP--apparently that's not real endgame content....so please enlighten us with your idea of all the other real endgame content...which are like raids but not raids.

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Originally posted by morbidlymystic

The game will rise and fall like SWTOR unless there is a real end game available. The game has no chance without some real end game content like raids. If you want a mediocre game like Eve, over the next gen BIG MMO, then there isn't much to say. Its just sad.

SWTOR had raiding at release, I don't think you comparison is working here.

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Alls I see is people who dont like raiding poiting out all the negatives of raiding. The truth is If you dont like raiding tough dont raid. Too many people equate Raiding with 40 man groups, hard boss encounters that take months to master and people yelling at them. Those days of raiding are long going. Take SWTOR raiding for example, the Story Mode and Hard modes in an 8 man setting is easy, relaxing, can be very fun and dramaless if you find the right group. Yes SWTOR sucked for Hardcore players because they can finish all the content in a week. Tough shit it was never built to be that game. All you people that want to sit there and hate on raiders saying they are elites are just doing the same that Elites do when telling you to go earn your gear by raiding. Why dont you all who hate raiding just deal with a game that does not have it and move on. Just like the hardcore players moved on from SWTOR because it was not hardcore enough.

Too much hate and negativty does nothing to better your life. Find one of the three dozen MMOs that fit you and play it and stop getting all up and arms about what developers do. Have your opinion, post it, dont fight others who have their own ideas and wants. Its pointless.

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Originally posted by morbidlymystic

Originally posted by azarhal

Originally posted by morbidlymystic

The game will rise and fall like SWTOR unless there is a real end game available. The game has no chance without some real end game content like raids. If you want a mediocre game like Eve, over the next gen BIG MMO, then there isn't much to say. Its just sad.

SWTOR had raiding at release, I don't think you comparison is working here.

Anyone who actually played it will tell you it was bad.

The ops were too buggy and not challenging when the game was first released. In fact the hardest part about Soa was often just dealing with the bugs.

End game crafting was completely nonexistent. There was one viable profession, biochem, and after you made your reusable consumables you were done.

The game was really just too much of a ripoff of WoW as well.

What you said in your first post is that ESO will fall without endgame like SWTOR did. Bugs were SWTOR issue, not the fact that it didn't have endgame. Hence bad comparison. I'm just being picky.

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Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by GreenHellI didn't vote because I'd really have to see how enjoyable the rest of the game is. I just think it's odd that they wouldn't include raids of any sort. I like options and limiting those options in this day and age seems kind of foolish. They are basically alienating a large portion of the MMO demographic that could be potential revenue for them. Doesn't make much sense .

This is one of the reasons I voted no. To me this seems like a big mistake to chuck out whats been a major part of MMOing for the past 15 years. I really hope they change their minds on this and not as an after thought with a bunch of 1/2 done raids that are not tripple A quality. You know there will be a bunch of hard core MMOers who will rip the content apart and get to end game and say "There is nothing to do" and quit. A lot of MMOers live for end game content and I have no clue how this game will float with no raids. Maybe as well as GW2?

Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

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Having endgame rading will just make the vocal minority rush to end game and then start complaining that there isn't enough content once they have done the raids. This happens with every mmo that has raiding..it's rush rush rush.

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Originally posted by morbidlymystic

Originally posted by azarhal

Originally posted by morbidlymystic

The game will rise and fall like SWTOR unless there is a real end game available. The game has no chance without some real end game content like raids. If you want a mediocre game like Eve, over the next gen BIG MMO, then there isn't much to say. Its just sad.

SWTOR had raiding at release, I don't think you comparison is working here.

Anyone who actually played it will tell you it was bad. Bad is the equivalent of it not existing.

The ops were too buggy and not challenging when the game was first released. In fact the hardest part about Soa was often just dealing with the bugs.

End game crafting was completely nonexistent. There was one viable profession, biochem, and after you made your reusable consumables you were done.

The game was really just too much of a ripoff of WoW as well.

I will agree with you that the hardest part of SWTOR raids were the bugs. That does not mean the game is bad. It’s just built for casual gamer vs someone who wants to have hard progression. You really are relying on personal opinion when it comes to what is a Bad game. To me right now SWTOR is the game for me. Why? Because the raids are easy, I can spend the time with a handful of friends instead of needing a dozen or more people to raid. MMOs right now at my point in life (working full time, having kids, and working on a BS Degree in CIS; working towards going for an MBA) are on the back burner. This is why I don’t play WoW or Rift anymore, because they take too much time to get to end game raiding and require more time than I am willing to give. SWTOR works well for me because I can cobble together a half ass set of gear and start raiding story modes. Then work from Story to Hard and Hard to Nightmare, without spending more than 3 hours a week raiding and another 2 to 3 just doing other things. I feel like I did something and I don’t need to spend the same effort in SWTOR as I did in Vanilla WoW raiding.

So keep saying how BAD SWTOR is. It’s not Bad, its setup for a Casual MMO player like myself that rates Real Life and Real Achievements over a digital achievement.

O and what you do not see that I do is this. (MMO DATABASE) TBL_User_Account_Info

Columns

Account, CharacterName, Credits, Gear

EpicMMOGamer, SHIZKILLER, 9999999, ALL EPICS

^^^^ That’s all an MMO is, is information like this in a Database somewhere, you didn’t achieve anything tangible.

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Originally posted by morbidlymystic

Originally posted by Genadi

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by GreenHellI didn't vote because I'd really have to see how enjoyable the rest of the game is. I just think it's odd that they wouldn't include raids of any sort. I like options and limiting those options in this day and age seems kind of foolish. They are basically alienating a large portion of the MMO demographic that could be potential revenue for them. Doesn't make much sense .

This is one of the reasons I voted no. To me this seems like a big mistake to chuck out whats been a major part of MMOing for the past 15 years. I really hope they change their minds on this and not as an after thought with a bunch of 1/2 done raids that are not tripple A quality. You know there will be a bunch of hard core MMOers who will rip the content apart and get to end game and say "There is nothing to do" and quit. A lot of MMOers live for end game content and I have no clue how this game will float with no raids. Maybe as well as GW2?

Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

You mean like WOW? Seeing as its by far the best MMO to date, and its earnings absolutely DWARFS anything else out there that is a pretty bold statement.

Pandering to hardcore entitled casuals that wan't items without effort is what ruins new MMOs.

Raiding doesn't require effort to acquire items, it's down to time and luck. I'd rather get items from a challenging encounter than to have to do the same content over and over and over again in the hope that a shiny drops.

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Originally posted by Genadi

Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

In case you didnt notice... themepark mmorpgs are about 'Feedz me more content'. Doesnt matter if they have raids or dont ... :) So if themepark mmo dont impelement raids there must be something else that replace it, because crafting, or doing quests, story, exploring wont make pve players play the game for years .. :) I hope dungeons and those big 50+ player battles will be damn awesome and not lame gw2 dynamic event copy, which are the most useless events ever made in mmorpgs. They were fun while leveling, not as end/elder game content ..

themepark mmorpgs needs as much end/elder game features and content as possible. You would not like to live in real life if everything you could do is swim, going to park or chew the gum right .. you need choices and things to doo :D

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Originally posted by Dogblaster

Originally posted by Genadi

Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

In case you didnt notice... themepark mmorpgs are about 'Feedz me more content'. Doesnt matter if they have raids or dont ... :) So if themepark mmo dont impelement raids there must be something else that replace it, because crafting, or doing quests, story, exploring wont make players play the game for years .. :)

The focus of this game is RVR, whereas in games like wow the focus is on raiding.

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Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by Dogblaster

Originally posted by Genadi

Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

In case you didnt notice... themepark mmorpgs are about 'Feedz me more content'. Doesnt matter if they have raids or dont ... :) So if themepark mmo dont impelement raids there must be something else that replace it, because crafting, or doing quests, story, exploring wont make players play the game for years .. :)

The focus of this game is RVR, whereas in games like wow the focus is on raiding.

Oh okey. So goodbye majority of pve players after few months? :) Nothing against it, just sounds weird when es was always about pve and now es mmo focus is RVR.. :) I thought PvE would be also very rich, I was wrong then ..

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Originally posted by Dogblaster

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by Dogblaster

Originally posted by Genadi

Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

In case you didnt notice... themepark mmorpgs are about 'Feedz me more content'. Doesnt matter if they have raids or dont ... :) So if themepark mmo dont impelement raids there must be something else that replace it, because crafting, or doing quests, story, exploring wont make players play the game for years .. :)

The focus of this game is RVR, whereas in games like wow the focus is on raiding.

Oh okey. Bye bye majority of pve players after few months :) Nothing against it, just sounds weird when es was always about pve and now mmorpg is mainly pvp .. :)

Well of course it was about pve, it was a single player game. Theres no point developing raid content when all the raiders will just go back to wow after a month or two anyway. WOW does raiding better than anyone else and trying to compete with them on that level will only make the game fail. Elder Scrolls didn't have any raiding either btw :)

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Originally posted by nerovipus32

Well of course it was about pve, it was a single player game. Theres no point developing raid content when all the raiders will just go back to wow after a month or two anyway. WOW does raiding better than anyone else and trying to compete with them on that level will only make the game fail. Elder Scrolls didn't have any raiding either btw :)

I am just saying its -1 elder game feature :) thats all. I dont care about raiding tbh, dungeons are damn enought for me if created well :) but after playing gw2 I dont want to end up playing game where I end up creating alt every month because there is nothing else to do in pve .. Because I wont stay with game like this again xD

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Originally posted by Dogblaster

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Well of course it was about pve, it was a single player game. Theres no point developing raid content when all the raiders will just go back to wow after a month or two anyway. WOW does raiding better than anyone else and trying to compete with them on that level will only make the game fail. Elder Scrolls didn't have any raiding either btw :)

I am just saying its -1 elder game feature :) thats all. I dont care about raiding tbh, dungeons are damn enought for me if created well :) but after playing gw2 I dont want to end up playing game where I end up creating alt every month because there is nothing else to do in pve .. Because I wont stay with game like this again xD