I am unable to discern much from this plate, but it may be familiar to others in the group. If you know of a duplicate, please contact me through this board. If you can provide me with a clear photo, a tracing or rubbing on paper, and dimensions, that will work as well.

Thank you for any and all help.

Dick

Attachments:

File comment: Missing plate, broken by vandals and parts removed.We'd like to get or make a copy.Tuyere plate.JPG [ 29.79 KiB | Viewed 3740 times ]

This was taken from our locomotive. Apparently it was placed on eBay in April of 2013, and was sold to a collector. Perhaps an A.P.B. could find it out in the world, but more than likely we'll have to find a new one or have one cast.Damn.

Thank you for the detective work. Maybe the buyer will come forward.That would be a nice "fairy tale" conclusion.

Looks to me as if this plate was removed from the locomotive very early on, perhaps even at the time it was first displayed, judging by the apparent age of that tag. It also shows that at least at one stage it was in the hands of a railfan interested enough to find a primary reference for what the plate describes ... an old reference. Out of curiosity, what did Worthpoint actually give as the price at which the plate changed hands?

Now here is an interesting opportunity for some Talmudic discussion:

There is little point paying a collector price for, or conversely trying to recover as 'stolen goods', the original. Just as for builder's plates, you'd want to keep and run 470 with a replica plate that looks like the original, but has no theft or vandalism value. That might even extend to making the replica out of some resistant composite material instead of metal.

But this goes against strict-preservationist use, first in the sense that the original fabric has now been demonstrated to exist, and second in the sense that a replacement ought by consistency to represent the original material. What is the range of positions (I doubt there would be a true 'consensus') on how to handle this situation in the specific case of 470?

_________________R.M.Ellsworth

wesp

Post subject: Re: Tuyere plate information requested.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:59 pm

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pmPosts: 1881

Quote:

But this goes against strict-preservationist use, first in the sense that the original fabric has now been demonstrated to exist, and second in the sense that a replacement ought by consistency to represent the original material. What is the range of positions (I doubt there would be a true 'consensus') on how to handle this situation in the specific case of 470?

When we restored Johnstown Traction 352 at National Capital Trolley Museum we had two reproductions made of the one remaining builder plate (kingpin cover). The reproductions were cast to match the original. The original went in the archives and the reproductions went on the car.

Cast aluminum plates with a "stolen from..." statement engraved in the back seem to be a good compromise. Painted black, it appears original. If the original is donated or otherwise obtained, it can be displayed or stored in a museum facility against the time when the engine is no longer running and is itself displayed in a secure facility, whereupon the original plate can be re-installed.

Aluminum replica plates are pretty common and are understood to be replicas, so have little collector value.

_________________Dennis Storzek

Richard Glueck

Post subject: Re: Tuyere plate information requested.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:59 pm

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 amPosts: 4035Location: Maine

Here's the follow-up. I have placed requests on two Maine Central boards, in the hopes somebody sees it. We have also placed a notice and photos on our Facebook page. I called eBay and this was the response: Report the theft of the item to local police. The police may email lawenforcement@ eBay.com, and eBay will give the buyer/seller information to the police. After that, the police take the inquiry as far as they wish to.

The plate remained on the locomotive well into the 1980's, so it was taken while still property of the city. We purchase 470 in 2016, when it had already been taken. My thinking is to replace the original with an iron copy, marked as a copy. In all likelihood, the buyer was duped. I'd consider providing him/her with a copy in return for the original. If the original is recovered, like other bits of "jewelry", it will go into secured storage.

we've gone over original fabric many times, when it comes to absolute practicality, protect the original in storage untheftable while having a duplicate replicable piece on display, in action. 765's builders plate is a duplicate and often they sell it after a run placing a new plate on noting when where the plate ran with the engine. good idea, really especially for the railfan and collector.

Overmod

Post subject: Re: Tuyere plate information requested.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:20 pm

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pmPosts: 1093

I'd suspect the eBay seller was 'duped', too, when they 'purchased this from a large collection' (reading between the lines, a family selling off the estate of someone they considered a 'train buff' without knowing or caring about the provenance of the items he'd collected). Where the police trail "ought" to lead is back to the people who sold off the collection, as far as 'refunding money' for the sale is concerned; they would also be the 'right people of record' either to dun for the theft, or to ask about a swap or donation. It might not require threat of police or lawyer to get the eBay seller to provide the contact information of the source.

_________________R.M.Ellsworth

JR May

Post subject: Re: Tuyere plate information requested.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:26 pm

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 amPosts: 535Location: Wall, NJ

Richard:I recently had very good luck having reproduction Baldwin builders plates made for a Baldwin electric locomotive. I had a Baldwin drawing of their typical builders plate which I gave to a smart college student who then made the needed number and date changes and set it up into a format that shapeways could then use to print me a plastic pattern. The cost was about $130 for the printing. I then had six copies made in aluminum from the shapeways pattern for $50 each by the Fair Weather Foundry in Ohio. If the replacements are stolen, its no big deal.

Perhaps you have enough photos and other evidence for someone to draw it up. If you need a hand with the shapeways angle, I suspect the student who helped me out might be interested in helping you with this effort. I can always ask him.

I have attached some photos of the plastic pattern and one of the aluminum plates.

J.R.

Attachments:

Plate 1 printed sm.jpg [ 241.46 KiB | Viewed 3382 times ]

Builders Plate sm.jpg [ 262 KiB | Viewed 3382 times ]

Plate on Shunter sm.jpg [ 146.15 KiB | Viewed 3382 times ]

Richard Glueck

Post subject: Re: Tuyere plate information requested.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:24 pm

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 amPosts: 4035Location: Maine

The pattern maker we have befriended does plenty of this work in wood. His patterns are "art", to say the least. 3D printing takes away some of the romance, but let's be honest, what we're after is a replacement plate, and the "romance" comes second. Somebody who knows 3D printing and is skilled at it, can churn out plenty of cosmetic part patterns in rapid order.

We have a volunteer foundry who does nice work for us, and we have aluminum 470 builder's plate copies available for $200 donation.

We'll let law enforcement do the work they're skilled and trained to do, other wise it could become a spitting match, with no plate, no answers.

I like the idea of running special trains with copy plates to commemorate the run.

We've been over this many times, sadly. One noted instance here was the builder's plates for now-preserved Reading FP7s, where it could be identified down to the week when they were taken while in the final hours of Reading ownership and before the locos were acquired for preservation. They came up for auction on eBay, and some shenanigans supposedly ensued that saw them removed from eBay by the attempted seller. We never did hear a final outcome on that, as I recall.

You are likely to find that the attitude of legal advisors, about half the rail enthusiast field out there, and even many here, is "tough patooties--you got the loco as is, and you have no legal/moral right to the plate in question." Even the collectors themselves are too often quite guilty of that mentality.

On the other hand, I was able a while back to return, on behalf of another railfan, a "liberated" collectible item to its locomotive when it ended up in (supposed) preservation--only to see the locomotive in question eventually scrapped a couple years later. Luckily, the fan in question didn't care enough to be upset, but had it been me, I would have turned "Indian giver" on the party in question......

Richard Glueck

Post subject: Re: Tuyere plate information requested.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:38 pm

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 amPosts: 4035Location: Maine

I think a lot of artifacts are removed from equipment in parks because the loco look like hell, and the "collector" thinks he is going to save a piece, while the rest unappreciated. It's still theft, but it's rationalized. Stealing it for eBay is a whole 'nother ball game.

I tend to agree, Alex, the authorities may say, "Look we're trying stop drug trafficking and shootings. We have enough to do".

It's small potatoes in grander scheme, but ideally, it may be set right. Time will tell.

Mr. Glueck - smart of you to follow up with the local PD. It is possible that the same person who removed this item from the locomotive also took other items and so the trail could lead back to a trove of parts. The item was clearly marked as being from 470 and so all subsequent buyers know it was from 470. This is an artifact whose ownership and planned disposition was never in question and so it is possible that no one in the chain of custody could be considered a buyer in good faith. I hope the City of Waterville, the owner at the time of the theft, is agreeable to helping your group recover any stolen items as a way to speed the restoration and lessen the expense. Best of luck. Please let us know how it all turns out.

Scranton Yard ... "making a run st[sic] the title of most irrelevant keyboard warrior on RYPN" - RobertJohnDavis

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