Scientology Leader Gave ABC First-Ever Interview

On Feb. 14, 1992, ABC News aired what Scientology leader David Miscavige said was his first-ever interview.

Today, in Italy, Miscavige was the best man at the wedding of actor Tom Cruise, a Scientologist.

Following is a transcript of his 1992 interview.

Ted Koppel, ABC News: Stars such as John Travolta and Tom Cruise say that Scientology
has changed their lives, but critics charge fraud, that the Church of
Scientology is nothing but a scam to take millions from unsuspecting
believers. Tonight, we'll take you inside the Church of Scientology,
as we bring you the first-ever interview with David Miscavige, the
head of the church.
Some of you may recall that last May, Time magazine did a cover story
on the Church of Scientology. To say that the leaders of that church
did not like the story would be a case of wretched understatement. As
you will hear in a moment from my colleague, Forrest Sawyer, the
Scientologists launched a multi-million-dollar campaign to
counter the impact of that Time story. It was during that general
period and in that context that we got in touch with the man who now
runs the church, David Miscavige, to discuss his appearance on
"Nightline." The process has taken nine months. Mr. Miscavige tells us
that he has never done an interview before. And I think it's also
fair to say that he and the men and women who run the Scientology
organization are somewhat leery of the media. The Church of
Scientology, for reasons that we will also be presenting, does not
generally get a very favorable press. David Miscavige is described in
one article as "ruthless, with a volatile temper," in another as
being "so paranoid that he keeps plastic wrap over his glass of
water." I was pleasantly surprised, then, when Mr. Miscavige first
came to my office a few months back. He came alone, without any
staff, and we had an amiable, if intense, conversation. I believe he
even accepted a cup of coffee without plastic wrap. We'll let you
make up your own mind about David Miscavige. We do have some things
to tell you, however, about the Church of Scientology. Here is the
first of two reports from Nightline correspondent Forrest Sawyer.

Forrest Sawyer, ABC News: After decades of seeing church officials arrested [and] after
hundreds of lawsuits with critics and defectors, the Scientology
business is now booming -- led by a 31-year-old high-school
dropout who seized control of the church 10 years ago and charted an
aggressive campaign to make Scientology a household world.

David Miscavige, October 1990: Tonight's event is being televised around the world, to every continent on the globe.

1st Actor, TV Commercial: Let's take a look inside the human mind.

2nd Actor, TV Commercial: Are you using your mind to the fullest?

Sawyer:
The church's rapid growth is built on selling one single
message: "Scientology has uncovered the secret of human potential."
The Scientologists have built their own TV and film studio.

Miscavige:
You can't be back in the dark ages of mass communication and be heard
in this world today.

Sawyer: Radio broadcasts are prepared, audiotapes reproduced by the
thousands on high-speed copiers, original music created, all of
this to encourage more people to join the movement, and join they do.
The church says it now has centers in over 70 countries, with more on
the way. Church leaders say this place, 520 acres south
of Los Angeles, a place they call "Gold," is a sign of their rapid
expansion. It is here where top church officials are planning the
future. "Gold" is run by people who believe so strongly they've
signed billion-year contracts with the church, a kind of
priesthood, dressed in uniforms, working over 13 hours a day, earning
just $30 a week. The church says these men and women are only the
most dedicated of eight million members worldwide. Church of
Scientology president Heber Jentzsch. (interviewing) How do you get
to call them members?

Heber Jentzsch, President, Church of Scientology:
Because they joined and they came in and they studied Scientology.

Sawyer:
They took one course, maybe.

Jentzsch:
Well, that's how valuable the course is. Eight million people, yes,
over a period of the last-- Since 1954.

Sawyer:
Critics say the actual figure is closer to 100,000, but
unquestionably, thousands of people, including well-known
celebrities, do swear by what they call "a technology of the mind."

Chick Corea, Jazz Pianist:
And this really directly affects my relationship with people, with
individuals around me, with my loved ones, and also with audiences.

Sawyer:
Psychological techniques they say help them feel better and act
more effectively. And there's a promise of something more.

Ken Rose, Defector:
From the very beginning, there was an air of mystery, there was an
air of somewhere up this path there was something extremely potent
and very sort of seductive and attractive.

Sawyer:
The introduction begins when you walk into a Scientology center.
Problems in your life? Take a personality test. "Evaluators" are
ready to tell you what's wrong. In fact, the counselors
are operating from a script that tells them exactly what to say. For
instance, "You are capable and overt as a person, but probably not to
the degree that you should be or would like to be." And the script
always ends the same:

1st Scientology "Evaluator":
That you are capable and overt, meaning open, as a person--

2nd Scientology "Evaluator":
Just not to the degree that you feel that you could be or should be,
and this is where Dianetics can help you.

Sawyer:
The script tells the evaluators to sell hard: "The more
resistive" -- meaning resistant -- "or argumentative he is, the more
the points should be slammed home." And it works. Students often
spend thousands of dollars to take more and more courses and
counseling called "auditing." They find problem areas by using an "E-meter," which Scientologists claim can read thoughts, or by
modeling with play-dough. The goal is to become what they call
"clear," free of the influence of negative past experiences. For all
the praise of Scientology from church members, there are equally
vocal critics. This past spring, Time magazine published a cover
story on the church, calling it "the cult of greed and power."
Reporter Richard Behar.

Richard Behar, Time Magazine:
People feel good, they talk about their problems, just like somebody
going into therapy might feel good talking about their problems. But
this all seems to have an ulterior motive, and to lead into this
extremely high-priced one-on-one counseling and "auditing."

Sawyer:
Dentist John Finucane liked the sales pitch he heard, and ended
up spending over $42,000 on services.

Dr. John Finucane, Defector:
They've tried to milk every penny they can out of any asset that I
have, whether it's a credit card, whether it's my home, whether it's
from a friend, whether it's from family. If I can get a hold of money
anywhere, they would like to have that money.

Sawyer:
Two years ago, Finucane responded to a newsletter from Sterling
Management, a church-related consultant to health professionals. He
says they helped his practice, but also led him into Scientology, and
kept pushing for even more money. Finucane says they charged $8,500
to his credit cards without permission. When they began phoning for
more, he turned on his tape recorder.

Finucane (audio tape):
So basically, I don't even have enough money for that, just to even
get to the point where I can do my auditing.

Scientologist (audio tape):
Well, you have quite a bit, though, John. I mean, you know, I don't
think buying more is your problem. Your problem is your wife.

Sawyer:
Because Finucane's wife opposed the church, they declared him a
"PTS," potential trouble source.

Finucane:
They said, "Well, you either need to shape things up or 'disconnect,' "
as they say, which, they won't ever say divorce. They just say
"disconnect."

Sawyer:
Ken Rose says he had to choose between the church and his
children. He says he was told to sign a paper agreeing to waive his
parental rights, or see his sons thrown out of Scientology school.

Rose:
On what is probably the darkest day of my life, I spent several hours
with them and their mother, with them, at one point, literally on
their knees sobbing for me to sign this paper so that they could keep
going to school.

Sawyer:
Defectors claim the church tears families apart every day.
Roxanne Friend brought her brother into the church. She says he ended
up helping to kidnap her.

Roxanne Friend, Defector:
They put me in a little apartment. They had a guard at the front door
and a guard at the back door, and I was not allowed to leave. There
was no telephone and no means of communication with the outside
world.

Sawyer:
Friend claims she was held to convince her not to see a non-Scientologist doctor when she felt sick.

Friend:
And be told, "Yeah, you are ill," but then, "No, we just need to audit
you. Give us, you know, $6,000, $12,000, and we'll audit you and
you'll be flying again." That's a direct quote. "We'll get you flying
again."

Sawyer:
Today, Roxanne has incurable cancer, which she says could have
been treated if diagnosed earlier. She spent over $80,000 on
Scientology, and has almost nothing left, and no medical insurance.
She blames the church.

Friend:
You're going to have a sense of anxiety or desperation to do whatever
it takes to sign your life away, your money and your mortgage and
your child.

Sawyer:
Church officials deny these charges made by what they call "a handful
of disgruntled people," many of whom they say are pursuing lawsuits
in order to squeeze the church for money. The defectors' response?
There are hundreds of others who are simply afraid to speak out. Why
they may be afraid and what the church really believes in our next
report, a few minutes from now.

Koppel:
In fact, when we come back, we'll be bringing you part two of Forrest
Sawyer's report and the first-ever interview with the head of the
Church of Scientology, David Miscavige.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel:
What exactly does the Church of Scientology believe, and what can
happen to those who criticize those beliefs? Once again, here's
"Nightline" correspondent Forrest Sawyer.

L. Ron Hubbard, author of "Dianetics" (1966):
I've slept with bandits in Mongolia and I've hunted with
pygmies in the Philippines. As a matter of fact, I have studied 21
different primitive races, including the white race.

Sawyer:
Scientology's founder was a man with an imagination. L. Ron
Hubbard wrote pulp science fiction for a penny a word and, critics
claim, manufactured his own life history as well. He called himself
an explorer and a war hero, the man who discovered the keys to the
universe and used them to heal his own war injuries. Critics say
Hubbard's claims were so fanciful that one California Superior Court
judge declared Hubbard to be "…virtually a pathological liar."

Jentzsch:
These are a bunch of people who never caused anything in their lives
to begin with, and who I would say are jealous of a man who brought a
technology of religion to this world the like of which has never been
seen before, and it works.

Sawyer:
In 1950, Hubbard turned away from pulp novels with a new book
that would change everything. It was, Hubbard said, the "true science
of the mind," and it sold millions. When psychiatrists challenged his
claims that Dianetics could heal illnesses and increase intelligence,
Scientologists fought back.

Jentzsch:
Psychiatry is Russian and Nazi. Remember, it's an import. It's like
bringing the bonic, the bubonic plague into America, as far as I'm
concerned. They are not American, and we are. And they can go back to
where they came from.

Sawyer:
Hubbard said psychiatry was part of a vast conspiracy to destroy
his newly formed church and control mankind. Recent Scientology films
still attack psychiatrists as potential killers.

Actor, Scientology Film:
And with each little swing, a manageable and
composed individual, one, two, three.

Sawyer:
Hubbard also announced he had gone beyond psychiatry, by
literally traveling in space to Venus and Mars, and to a distant
radiation belt.

Hubbard:
I was up in the Van Allen Belt. This is factual. And I don't know why
they're scared of the Van Allen Belt, because it's simply hot. You'd
be surprised how warm space is.

Sawyer:
Hubbard said he had discovered secrets of the universe so
powerful they could only be heard by Scientologists who had spent
hundreds of hours studying his programs. Anyone else would be struck
dead by the knowledge. He told stories of how, 75 million years ago,
an evil tyrant collected beings on other planets to be stored in
volcanoes on earth.

Hubbard:
Boxed them up in boxes, threw them into space planes. DC-8 airplane
is the exact copy of the space plane of that day. No difference,
except the DC-8 had fans, propellers on it, and the space plane
didn't.

Sawyer:
As this film depicts, the spirits' bodies were destroyed by
hydrogen bombs, and today their troubled spirits are attached to
human bodies by the thousands. Called "body thetans," they cause
endless problems. Only Scientology knows how to shake them loose.

Friend:
You talk to them, and when you find out who they are and what they
are, what they're doing and what's making them stick around you, then
they blow. And so you pay a lot of money. I mean, you have lots of
body thetans, so this process takes lots of time.

Sawyer:
Scientologists today consider these sacred writings, the story of how
mankind's problems evolved millions of years ago on other planets,
and so they need to be kept secret. Defectors claim there is another
reason for secrecy.

Rose:
I really think that instead of handing out personality tests on the
street, they handed out a story that said, you know, "What's really
plaguing you is that you're encrusted with little spirits and these
spirits are suffering from an incident that took place 75 million
years ago, and if you come on into our church we'll cure you of
this," I think that there would be a high rate of people saying, "No
thanks."

Sawyer:
L. Ron Hubbard died in 1985, leaving behind a church embroiled
in controversy. The IRS has been in hot pursuit for years, defectors
are suing for millions of dollars in damages, and critics are loudly
claiming the church is running a huge con game. Once again, the
church is fighting back.

Behar:
I've done a lot of investigative stories in my career, and this thing, this thing takes the cake.

Sawyer:
When Richard Behar published a critical story in Time magazine
in May, the church mounted a $3-million campaign in USA Today,
accusing the magazine of being manipulated by drug companies the
church opposes. Behar claims they went even further.

Behar:
I have evidence that they've gotten hold of my personal phone
records. They've called up friends, neighbors, a former colleague.
I've gotten a visit to my apartment building which I believe is
connected to the story.

Sawyer:
It is, critics claim, part of a policy called "fair game," in
which enemies "May be tricked sued, or lied to, or destroyed." The
church acknowledges some of its officials, including Hubbard's own
wife, did harass people years ago, but they were convicted, and the
practice has stopped. Defectors say it still goes on.

Vicki Aznaran:
They hire private detectives to harass people. They run covert
operations. You name it, they have never quit doing it. It would like--
They would have to quit being Scientology if they quit doing that.

Sawyer:
Vicki Aznaran is a former high-ranking church official who
lost a power struggle with David Miscavige over control of the church
after Hubbard's death. She is presently suing the church and claims
she heard Miscavige order attacks on troublemakers.

Aznaran:
He said that we will use public people, we'll send them out to the
dissidents' homes, have them, their homes, broken into, have them
beaten, have things stolen from them, slash their tires, break their
car windows, whatever. And this was carried out and was being carried
out at the time I left.

Sawyer:
Church officials vigorously deny all the charges, and call these
critics nothing more than guppies trying to annoy a whale.

Jentzsch:
You look at this. We get hit, we expand, we get hit, we expand, we
get hit, we expand, we get hit, we expand. I mean, I don't want to
say the obvious. You hit us, we'll grow.

Sawyer:
Scientology, they say, is growing by leaps and bounds, and for
critics and church defectors, that is precisely the problem. This is
Forrest Sawyer for "Nightline."

Koppel:
Joining us live tonight is David Miscavige, whose formal title is
chairman of the board of the Religious Technology Center, the
organization which manages Dianetics and Scientology. Mr. Miscavige
took over as the head of Scientology in 1987 following the death of
the church's founder, L. Ron Hubbard. You've been sitting here very
patiently for the first 15 minutes. It's your turn. We're going to
take a short segment here to talk, and then we'll take a break, and
then we've got the rest of the program to talk. Where would you like
to pick up on what many in our audience, I suspect, have seen for the
first time about the Church of Scientology?

Miscavige:
Yeah, well, I think-- You know, I guess the first thing I would like
to take up is the fact that the intro piece-- There's no question
that there's some controversy surrounding Scientology, but if you
want to look at what the real controversy is, there's been stories
like this one that we saw here for the past 40 years, and yet during
that time period Scientology's continued to grow. In fact, it's 25
times larger today than it was in 1980. I would just like to take up
a few of the falsehoods that are in there, because I think this
explains a lot why you have the controversy. I don't know that
Scientology lends itself so well to the press. In this instance, we
did agree that we would have your correspondents come in, and in
fact, he did have unlimited access to the church. But then you get a
piece like this. For instance, something that isn't mentioned in
there is that every single detractor on there is part of a religious
hate group called Cult Awareness Network and their sister group
called American Family Foundation. Now, I don't know if you've heard
of these people, but it's the same as the KKK would be with the
blacks. I think if you interviewed a neo-Nazi and asked them to
talk about the Jews, you would get a similar result to what you have
here. The thing I find disingenuous is that it's not commented upon,
and yet, in fact, your correspondent Forrest and Deanna Lee were
aware of this fact. And not only that, that is the source of where
they, they received these people to talk to. They didn't find them
randomly--

Koppel:
Well, if I may just interrupt for a moment: You realize there's a
little bit of a problem in getting people to talk critically about
the Scientology because, quite frankly, they're scared.

Miscavige:
Oh, no, no, no, no.

Koppel:
Well, I'm telling you--

Miscavige:
No, no, no, no. Let me tell you--

Koppel:
I'm telling you people are scared.

Miscavige:
Let me explain something to you. The most disingenuous thing is
that you have those people. Now, let's not give the American public
the wrong impression, that these are people that randomly were pulled
in from around the world and that they decided to talk against
Scientology. Those people aren't scared and they've been loudly
speaking in the press. You showed me a book you had before this show
that has many detractors, same ones, so they're not really
frightened. That's a good story--

Koppel:
Actually, that wasn't a book, it was a collection of articles--

Miscavige:
Let me finish.

Koppel:
…that has been written about you and the church.

Miscavige:
But the same people were quoted.

Koppel:
No. What I was saying is the reason, perhaps, that we only hear from
those folks is that there are a lot of other people who might be
considered detractors of the church, and they, who do not belong to
any organization, are, quite frankly, afraid to come out and speak
publicly.

Miscavige:
Well, I'm sorry, no, I'm sorry, that story doesn't hold water,
because I'll tell you, from my perspective, the person getting
harassed is myself and the church. Let me give you an example. We did
make access possible for Forrest. That isn't to say that he took
advantage of it, Ted. For instance, the subject of money comes up, it
comes up routinely, and I'm sure we might bring it up later on in
this show. But I, in fact, had the highest contributors of Scientology
gathered up so that Forrest could interview them, to ask them why
they gave money to the church and how much they had, and believe me,
it's larger figures than these people are talking about. He told me
he didn't have time. I said, "Please, I mean, they're here." He said,
"No, I don't have time, I don't want to see 'em." I offered for him
to go down to our church headquarters in Clearwater, Fla., where
2,000 parishioners are there at any given time from all over the
world. In other words, he would get a cross-selection of people
from Germany, England, California, Florida, Spain, Italy, you name
it. Didn't want to go, didn't have time. So to represent also that
this is what the church puts forth isn't so. Here's what I find wrong
and here's what I find the common mistake the media makes. I can give
you a hundred thousand Scientologists who will say unbelievably
positive things about their church to every one you add on there, and
I not only am upset about those people not being interviewed, they
are, too. And the funny thing about it, and why you find this not
really being that one who speaks in the media, is because not just
myself, any Scientologist, will open up a paper, will watch this
program, they're probably laughing right now, saying, "That isn't
Scientology." That's what makes media. Media is controversy. I
understand that. And if you really looked at the big picture of
what's happening in Scientology, it isn't really controversial,
certainly to a Scientologist.

Koppel:
Okay. We are going to have to take a break.

Miscavige:
Very good.

Koppel:
I hope you understand that there's a little bit of a paradox in your
saying, you know, "We're not going to get a chance to listen to what
Scientology is really about"; we have with us, after all, since you
were courteous enough to join us--

Koppel:
I understand, and we're going to be spending the rest of this hour,
in which I'll have a chance to talk to you and you can clear up some
of the misconceptions we have.

Miscavige:
Absolutely.

Koppel:
Okay?

Miscavige:
Okay.

Koppel:
We'll continue our discussion in a moment.

("Dianetics," a best-seller for a record 100 consecutive weeks
(1986-1988).)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel:
I'd like to begin, Mr. Miscavige, with, I guess, the kind of broad
question that perhaps folks at home may be asking themselves right
now. But let me be the guinea pig for a moment. See if you can
explain to me why I would want to be a Scientologist.

Miscavige:
Because you care about yourself and life itself. Scientology, the
word means study of life, study of knowledge, and that's where it is. It takes up all areas of life itself, things that are integral and
maxims that are related to life and very existence. Let me give you
an example. It's better if I take that, because it is such a broad-ranging subject covering so many different areas, the subject of
communication. This is something that major breakthroughs exist in
Scientology, being able to communicate in the world around you. And I
think everybody would agree that this is an important subject. Well,
there's an actual formula for communication which can be understood.
You can drill on this formula of communication, and learn to drill,
but moreover, take the person who has trouble communicating, has--
Well, for some reason he can't -- anxiety, whatever.

Koppel:
I'll tell you what. Let's stick with me, okay? So far in life I
haven't had a whole lot of trouble communicating. Now see if you can
communicate to me what it is that you're going to be able to do for
me that makes me a better communicator.

Miscavige:
Well, I don't-- In Scientology you don't do anything for somebody
else. Scientology is something that requires somebody's active
participation.

Koppel:
Then, fine, I--

Miscavige:
It certainly-- Let me explain something--

Koppel:
I want to participate, I want to be active completely. We are
looking theoretically--

Miscavige:
What in your life, Ted? What in your life do you not feel is right,
that you would like help?

Koppel:
I feel perfectly comfortable with my life. I like my job, I'm happy
with my family, I love my wife, I'm healthy. I'm perfectly content,
that's why I'm asking you what is it you can do for me.

Miscavige:
Well-- Well, number one, I would never try to talk you into that
Scientology's for you. You see, that's the funny thing about this, as
if I'm now going to give a sales pitch to you on Scientology. Believe
me, Scientology's valuable enough that it doesn't require any sales
pitch. But let's look at it this way, then, what Scientology does. If
you look out across the world today, you could say that if you take a
person who's healthy, doing well, like yourself, you'd say that that
person is normal, not a crazy, not somebody who's psychotic, you look
at a wall and they call it an elephant. Would you agree with me on
that?

Koppel:
So far I've got no problem.

Miscavige:
Okay. And you can see people below that, and crazy people, criminals,
that I think society in general will look at and say, "That breed of
person hasn't something quite right because they're not up to this
level of personality." You can understand that. Well, we in
Scientology are not-- You see, all past attempts have been to bring
man up to somebody's standard of what's normal. What we are trying to
do in Scientology is take somebody from this higher level and move
them up to greater ability. You see, we're interested in the--

Koppel:
What about those folks "down there"?

Miscavige:
Well, yes, no, you wouldn't-- We don't ignore them. But my point is
this: Scientology is there to help the able become more able. The guy
who's going around, he's working, he's trying to make it, these
people generally have something in their life that they would like to
improve and, in any event, if you can increase that person's ability,
the one who's chipping in, the one who's able, and bring him up
higher, this sphere of influence that he affects in the world around
him can be much greater, and he can get on and do better.

Koppel:
Now, Mr. Miscavige, when you and I talked the first time, a few months
ago, I said to you I was going to come after you on some of these
issues. I am a cynic, by nature. I guess that's why I like being a
reporter. What you have described to me there fits perfectly with the
image that I have of Scientology. Namely, you're interested in folks
who are producing. Another way of saying that is you're interested in
folks who've got money and who can pay to work their way up the
Scientology ladder.

Miscavige:
Well, you see, that's where you miss the point, because in fact, you
know, this subject of money comes up, but you've got the wrong issue
there. The subject of money is, where's it going. You see, another
part that isn't in that piece, the money in Scientology isn't going
to me. It's not going to my colleagues. That's a fact. That's a fact.
You can call up the IRS and find that fact out. They've audited our
records and seen all of that, and none of that money is going
anywhere. As a matter of fact, the officials in the church are paid
far less and live far more frugal existences than any other church
leader. Our money goes to social causes that we accept. You take
these people. We are the largest social reform group in the world, do
far more than any other church. For the last two years we have been
voted the community outreach group of the year in Los Angeles.

Koppel:
By whom?

Miscavige:
By the local city council. The senate of California passed a
resolution that's for our work with underprivileged children in
California. We work on getting drug addicts off drugs. We support
Narconon, which is a drug rehabilitation center using the drug
rehabilitation technology of L. Ron Hubbard. There are 33 centers
around the world. Over 100,000 people have been gotten off drugs. We
sponsor educational programs. Several years ago in just-- Wait, in
just one instance, we worked with--

Koppel:
I don't want to minimize any of that--

Miscavige:
But wait--

Koppel:
But how does that make your group the-- How did you put it -- that
you do more to help?--

Miscavige:
Social reforms, helping people.

Koppel:
Social reform--

Miscavige:
Sure.

Koppel:
…than any other group in the world. More than the Catholic Church,
more than--

Miscavige:
Well, no, more accurately is per size. And when you put it in that
rate -- in other words, how big Scientology is compared to any others --
the amount that we do on that subject, there's not even anybody
comparable.

Koppel:
During one of Forrest Sawyer's pieces a moment ago, we heard one of
your colleagues talking about psychiatry, right?

Miscavige:
Right.

Koppel:
You guys are deaf on psychiatry. The criticism that was made was that
this is foreign to the United States. He referred to its origin in
Nazism and Communism. And that your religion, Scientology, is an
"American" religion. Fair enough so far?

Miscavige:
Well, American-of-the-mind. Yeah. That's right.

Koppel:
What does that do for Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism,
Taoism and all the other isms that also did not--

Miscavige:
Oh, I think--

Koppel:
…originate in this country?

Miscavige:
Well, no, that isn't really the point. The point there is this --
that those people, the Fascists, the Communists, have used psychiatry
to further their ends. That's just a fact. I mean, you want to look
at the studies that brought about the Holocaust of the Jews, that the
Nazis justified killing the Jews, they were done at the Max Planck
Institute of Psychiatry in Leipzig, Germany, and that justified the
killing of six million people. If you look at the report that even
Forrest Sawyer did on mental institutions in Russia -- several months
ago he did this -- you saw that that was a tool of the state. That's
the point he's making there. But let me tell you what our real
problem is. Number one, understand this. Psychiatry, psychology, that
comes from the word psyche. Psyche means soul. These people have
preempted the field of religion, not just Scientology, every other
religion. They right now practice and preach the fact that man is an
animal, and I guess that is where philosophically we're at odds with
them. But to understand what this war is, this is not something that
we started. In fact, 22 days after "Dianetics: The Modern Science of
Mental Health" came out, the attacks from the American Psychiatric
Association started. This was the first popular book on the mind ever
in existence, it was running up the best-seller list, it was
popular with the people. I have the letter sent out by the man who
was in the American Psychiatric Association asking for ad hominum
reviews on the subject of Dianetics. These people absolutely felt
that we were cutting across their vested interests, and the lengths
with which they have gone to destroy Scientology and Dianetics and L.
Ron Hubbard is absolutely mind-boggling. They attempted to do so
through the 1950s. First they tried to attack L. Ron Hubbard's
credibility, then they recruited the American Medical Association and
the Food and Drug Administration, and they then proceeded to
infiltrate our organization.

Koppel:
May I--

Miscavige:
No, no, let me finish--

Koppel:
May I stop you just for a moment? Because, you know, when you talk
about undermining L. Ron Hubbard's credibility -- and again, I have no
idea whether that video and the tape that we heard--

Miscavige:
Yeah, but why don't touch on that?

Koppel:
…that we heard was representative of L. Ron Hubbard. But when I hear
about a man talking about having been taken out to the Van Allen
space radiation belt of space ships that were essentially the same
thing as the DC-8, I've got to tell you, I mean, if we're talking
about this man's credibility, that certainly raises some questions in
my mind about his credibility.

Miscavige:
Okay. Well, let me ask you, have you read any books on Dianetics or
Scientology?

Koppel:
I've been reading little else over the last two days.

Miscavige:
You see, here--

Koppel:
I must confess, I'm not a student of--

Miscavige:
But you haven't read "Dianetics" or any books on Scientology?

Koppel:
You're absolutely right.

Miscavige:
Okay, fine. Then that's why you would make a comment like that? I
mean, let's not joke around here. That bit that Forrest did there
pulled out of context items. And let's not forget something else, by
the way. I told Forrest Sawyer -- and I was open about this the whole
time, I have been in communication with "Nightline" numerous times -- I
said, "Forrest, if something comes up, you want to bring me up an
allegation, you confront me it before this so I can do away with this
garbage and not have to do it on the program." "Dave, I promise you
I'll do it." Numerous calls have been put in to him. I have never
heard it from him. I never heard about these. To do that is take
anything out of context. Ted, when I talk about--

Koppel:
Can you--

Miscavige:
No, but let me just give you an analogy.

Koppel:
You know that there are going to be a lot of folks out there -- and
I'm sure there are a lot of Scientologists, and I don't want to
offend anyone who truly believes this -- but there are a lot of people
out there who will look at that. You say it was taken out of context.
Take a minute, if you would, and see if you can put it into context
for us so that it does not sound ridiculous. Because, quite frankly,
the way it sounded there, it sounded ridiculous.

Miscavige:
Okay. Well, let me tell you-- Let me ask you to do this, then: I want
you to take the Catholic Church and take right now and explain to me,
to make sense that the Virgin Mary was a virgin, scientifically
impossible, unless we're talking about something-- Okay, I'll be like
you. I'll be the cynic. If we're talking about artificial
insemination, how could that be? If you're talking about going out to
heaven, xcept we have a space shuttle going out there, we have the
Apollo going out there, you do that. I'm not here--

Koppel:
I will--

Miscavige:
Wait--

Koppel:
I will--

Miscavige:
I'm not here to talk--

Koppel:
Let me do it, and you're-- You were a Catholic as a child, right?

Miscavige:
Yeah.

Koppel:
So you know full well that those issues are questions of faith. Are
you telling me that what we have heard L. Ron Hubbard say on this
broadcast this evening, that they, to Scientologists, are issues of
faith? If that's what you tell me, then that's fine.

Miscavige:
No, no. As a matter of fact--

Koppel:
Then it doesn't have to be explained logically.

(crosstalk)

Miscavige:
Talk about the Van Allen Belt or whatever is that,
that forms no part of current Scientology, none whatsoever.

Koppel:
But what did he mean when he was talking about it?

Miscavige:
Well, you know, quite frankly, this tape here, he's talking about the
origins of the universe, and I think you're going to find that in
any, any, any religion, and I think you can make the same mockery of
it. I think it's offensive that you're doing it here, because I don't
think you'd do it somewhere else.

Koppel:
I'm not mocking it. I'm asking you a question, and you know, you turn
it around and ask me about Catholicism. I say we're talking about
areas of faith.

Miscavige:
Well, it's not even a matter of faith, because Scientology is about
you, yourself and what you do. You're bringing up something that
isn't part of current Scientology, that isn't something that
Scientologists study, that is part of some tape taken from, I have no
idea, and asking me about it and asking me to put it in context. That
I can't do.

Koppel:
All right. Okay. We're going to continue our discussion in just a
moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel:
And we're back once again with David Miscavige. I'm going to let you
get to the point you want to get to, but I was astonished, during the
break you told me you had never heard that tape before, the L. Ron
Hubbard tape.

Miscavige:
No, I'd never heard that. No. I'm not-- I mean, it may exist here,
but I haven't heard it. I mean, I don't know if you understand, there
are 6,000 lectures by Mr Hubbard. There are over 20 million words of
printed words in Scientology, and all of these have been made
available in Scientology, so if it is there, we'll find it. I don't
think anything's being hidden, either. I just personally haven't
heard that tape, no.

Koppel:
Okay. Now, you wanted to get back to the issue of the psychiatrists.

Miscavige:
Yes.

Koppel:
And let me, if I may, by way of introduction to that, I did not
interrupt you before, but you were talking about the use of
psychiatry in Nazi Germany, the use of psychiatry in the Soviet
Union.

Miscavige:
Yes.

Koppel:
I would argue, and I think most psychiatrists in this country would
argue, that what we're talking about here was the misuse of
psychiatry in both those countries.

Miscavige:
Well, okay. And if we're talking about the misuse, fine. In any
event, I think any use that ends up killing people is a misuse, and I
think that's a hell of a record to have. But let me get back to where
I was, because it does tie in. You say the misuse, but I don't know
if you're aware that there was a plan in 1955 in this country, Ted,
to repeat what was done in Russia. There was going to be a Siberia,
U.S.A., set up on a million acres in Alaska to send mental patients. They
were going to lessen the commitment laws. You could basically get
into an argument with somebody and be sent up there. This sounds very
odd. Nobody's ever heard about it. That's in no small part thanks to
the Church of Scientology. I must say, though, that when that bill
was killed in Congress, the war was on with psychiatry where they
declared war on us, and I want you to understand something--

Koppel:
Let me just ask you to be specific on that. You are talking about a
bill having been brought into Congress for the setting aside of a
million acres in Alaska--

Miscavige:
You got it.

Koppel:
…for people--

Miscavige:
To send a mental health center.

Koppel:
…to send mental health patients? What was-- Who was the sponsor of
that bill? What was the bill number? I mean, we'd-- I'm sure we're
going to--

(crosstalk)

Miscavige:
Well, I have a copy of it, and if you want it I can give it to you.
All of these documents--

Koppel:
I would. Let me see it.

Miscavige:
All of these documents were made available to Forrest. If they're
not on here, I don't know why, but I do have them and I will make it
available to you.

Koppel:
Okay. Now, was that bill ever voted on? Did it ever come out of
committee?

Miscavige:
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It was a major, major, major flap
for the psychiatrists when it got voted down, because then the slogan
around the country began, "Siberia USA," and it was really the first
time that psychiatry had been denigrated publicly, that they weren't
the science that they had been promoting themselves to be. And they
took it upon themselves then to start dealing with anybody who would
oppose them. They definitely saw Dianetics and Scientology as
opposing them, not only in terms of their brutal treatments, such as
electric shock and prefrontal lobotomy, which are specific things
that we're against, but also for the fact of the people that were
going to Dianetics and Scientology and not there. They went to the
Food and Drug Administration, they went to the American Medical
Association, they arranged an informant to go into our headquarters
here in Washington, D.C., and infiltrate the organization over the next
five years. I have documents on this, too. They wanted to get
somebody in the church to recommend medical treatment, couldn't get
them to do it, walk in and say, "I want to be cured medically."
People wouldn't do it. They finally went so far as getting the head
of the D.C. morals, the moral department of the D.C. police to send his
daughter in as an informant, pregnant, to get an abortion, to ask the
church to do it, a frame job. The church didn't go for it. They did
then raid the church.

Koppel:
When you say "they," you're talking about who now?

Miscavige:
I am talking-- This is the APA, AMA, Food and Drug Administration.
These people were all coordinated doing these activities, and it went
on for five years, Ted, and you have to understand, we only find this
out recently. They then proceed to raid our church. Now, the
following takes place. They killed one of our executive directors.
They literally murdered-- The Food and Drug Administration hired an
informant to go into our organization in Seattle, Wash., his
wife was there. He wasn't for Scientology, she was. They said,
"Great, report on her and report on Scientology." He proceeded to do
so. Several weeks later, murdered the head of our organization. The
Food and Drug Administration never told us that it was their
informant. Instead -- wait -- instead, they got with the D.C.-- I mean,
with the Seattle Police, and went undercover in the organization on
the homicide investigation to rifle our files. At that same time --
and here's where the media comes in -- a man interviewed L. Ron
Hubbard for The Saturday Evening Post. He came out with an
unbelievably bad article in that magazine. Of course, Scientology
said, "You're part of this Food and Drug Administration thing," and
of course, he said, "Oh, excuse me, you just sound like the fringe,"
which is very easy to say. What do I find out 20 years later through
the Freedom of Information Act? I find out that this man, a man named
James Phelan, had been, well, The Saturday Evening Post had been
written to by the Food and Drug Administration to get a discrediting
article written on Mr. Hubbard and Scientology to help their case
against us, that this man then went and interviewed Mr. Hubbard. He
interviewed him for two days. Mr. Hubbard provided him with tapes and
transcripts. The man came back here to the United States. Mr. Hubbard
was in England and provided those transcripts to the Food and Drug
Administration for their case a full week before he ever wrote his
article.

Koppel:
We have got to take another break. We'll continue our discussion in a
moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel:
Mr. Miscavige, I must admit, I'm curious. You have been the head of
the Church of Scientology now for what, a little over 10 years?

Miscavige:
Not really the head there, but certainly a senior Scientologist, yes,
Ted.

Koppel:
Okay. During all that time -- you just told me again, earlier this
evening -- you have not done any interviews.

Miscavige:
No.

Koppel:
(A), Tell me why. And (B), why now?

Miscavige:
Why now? Okay. Why not? Let me tell you something: I once added up
all the press that had been written about me before the first
reporter called trying to speak to me, and from around the world, it
stacked up to four-and-a-half feet. By then, it was myth and legend.
And then only on one or two occasions can I think of that somebody
has asked to speak to me, but never to interview me. It was always,
"I want to ask you about some allegations." And to that degree, I'm
not interested. I gave you the story about this reporter. Quite
frankly, from my view, a lot of the people who have written stories
on Scientology are doing it from a certain pitch, they already have
their story somewhat made up. They've already made up their mind.
It's a waste of my time, I have to be honest. Why now? It's live.

Koppel:
Okay. It is live. As you know, initially, I mean, we wanted--

Miscavige:
And you asked.

Koppel:
That's-- Well, we certainly did. We asked, and we have been talking
to each other now--

Miscavige:
Sure, absolutely.

Koppel:
…and negotiating now for about nine months.

Miscavige:
That really has never happened, Ted.

Koppel:
Initially, we wanted you to come on because you folks were really
upset about that cover story that Time magazine did.

Miscavige:
Yes.

Koppel:
Now, a lot of people have been upset by stories in the press about
them. Certainly, a cover story has more impact than just any old story
in a magazine, and Time is a big magazine, but one might argue that
your response to it, your reaction to it, was huge. I think Forrest
said you spent $3 million in USA Today alone, with some of those full-page ads, double-truck ads, that you ran. Didn't you also run
some TV ads and radio ads on that?

Miscavige:
No, nothing on Time. And by the way, when you say the $3 million,
that, there was an advertising campaign. You have to understand, the
first three weeks of it were about the Time magazine and correcting
the falsehoods on it.

Koppel:
All right.

Miscavige:
That was a campaign that ran for 12 weeks. The rest of it was
attempting to inform the public of what Scientology was.

Koppel:
All right. Now, I told you, we've got to take a break in exactly one
minute, so I may have to cut you short if you go longer on this--

Miscavige:
Okay.

Koppel:
…but why were you so-- What was it about the Time magazine story
that so upset you?

Miscavige:
Because it wasn't reporting on anything, it was an attempt to cause
something. Richard Behar is a hater.

Koppel:
Behar.

Miscavige:
Behar, he had done an article on Scientology three years earlier in
conjunction with the Internal Revenue Service. The man was on record
on two occasions attempting to get Scientologists kidnapped. That is
an illegal act. When you get somebody like that doing an article,
you're not too interested.

Koppel:
All right. Let's leave that hanging in the air, and I promise we'll
come back to it--

Miscavige:
Okay.

Koppel:
I think both you and Mr. Behar deserve more on that subject. I'll be
back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel:
As you can see, our hour is up, but (A), the opportunity to talk to
Mr. Miscavige is such a rare one, and (B), we really do have some
issues that have been left hanging, that we're going to go a few
minutes over our allotted time. You made the charge a moment ago that
Mr. Behar at Time magazine, the reporter who wrote the cover story for
Time, that he had, what, conspired with someone to try to get someone
from Scientology kidnapped?

Miscavige:
No, no, he was-- He had written an original article and some people
had called him up and he was telling them to kidnap Scientologists
out.

Koppel:
He was telling them to kidnap Scientologists.

Miscavige:
Yes, and get them forcibly deprogrammed which, according to Ted
Patrick, who was the father of deprogramming--

Koppel:
All right.

Miscavige:
…It always includes kidnapping, usually assault and battery, and
certainly with the intent to commit a felony.

Koppel:
All right. Now, kidnapping, as you well know, is a federal crime in
this country.

Miscavige:
Well, let me tell you something, there is one person who he used in
that article that was, to be asked of him to infiltrate at our
church in New Jersey. He didn't quote this in his article. I didn't
find out until actually about a month ago, and the person has just
been arrested. As a matter of fact, four people from this same group
I mentioned at the beginning of this show have just been put under
arrest last week for forcible kidnapping of persons from another
faith. You have to understand something, Ted. These people that he
aligns with, this Cult Awareness Network, which every one of these
people are a part of--

Koppel:
Although I told you during a break that my producer told me in
earpiece right after it, I was going to leave it alone, that all of
those people maintain they are not in that cult awareness group.

Miscavige:
Well, no, they don't, because I'll tell you right now, I spoke to--
Well, that's just not the case. But in any event--

Koppel:
Can we stay on Mr. Behar for a moment?

Miscavige:
Absolutely.

Koppel:
Because you have made what is really a very serious charge, and that
he was involved--

Miscavige:
Oh, he admits to it.

Koppel:
…that he was involved in kid-- I'm sure he doesn't admit to being--

Miscavige:
No, he admits to wanting to get a Scientologist kidnapped.

Koppel:
…to being involved in kidnapping. That would be a very serious
admission, as you well know.

Miscavige:
He absolutely admits to wanting to get a Scientologist kidnapped. That's in your Washington Post.

Koppel:
As I said to you before, there is such a thing as attempted rape,
attempted murder, attempted kidnapping. It's also a crime.

Miscavige:
Yeah, but they didn't make it. They didn't make it. I mean, the point
is this.

Koppel:
That doesn't matter. It's still a crime.

Miscavige:
Okay. The person would have to bring charges. I think you're really
missing the issue, Ted, because my point is this: That man represents
himself as an objective reporter. Here he is on record a full three
years before he wrote this article, stating that he felt
Scientologists should be kidnapped to change their religion. Second
of all, let's look at this article, and let's not fool ourselves. It
wasn't an objective piece. It was done at the behest of Eli Lilly.
They were upset because of the damage we had caused to their killer
drug Prozac. They set up that article. They used their advertising
dollar to force it to run, and that's the facts.

Koppel:
All right. Now, if that is the fact, you're a careful man. I'm sure
that you have evidence of that.

Miscavige:
Well, here's what I do have of that. I do have a man here in
Washington, D.C., named Duffy Wall, another one named Walter Moore.
These are lobbyists for Eli Lilly. We have Burson Marsteller, the PR
firm for Eli Lilly. The reason I'm saying this, you have to
understand, this isn't my charge. I'm telling you what they say.
After that article came out, they were around town here saying, "We
caused that article on Scientology on behalf of Eli Lilly to help
them out."

Koppel:
You have affidavits to that?

Miscavige:
Let me tell you what else I have.

Koppel:
You have affidavits?

Miscavige:
From them? Of course not. You think they'd admit it?

Koppel:
Well, I mean, you're--

Miscavige:
But they're the ones who said it.

Koppel:
You're saying they said it, I'm trying--

Miscavige:
Let me tell you what I do have.

Koppel:
Go ahead.

Miscavige:
I go one step further. I then later found out -- and you didn't know
this -- that Eli Lilly ordered a reprint of 750,000 copies of Time
magazine before it came out, reported in The Washington Post. But
most importantly, here's what I do have: I put in a call to the
people, the advertising firms, who set this up. I called up JWT, J.
Walter Thompson, in New York. I spoke to the CEO. He said he would
look into it and get back to me. He never did. I called up a man over
in England who owns all these advertising and PR conglomerates for
Eli Lilly, a man named Martin Sorrell. Ted, I asked him 10 times on
the phone to deny that he had set this up on their behalf. He
wouldn't do it.

Koppel:
All right--

Miscavige:
We put in a call to Eli Lilly. Their response was, "We can neither
confirm nor deny." This is a pretty heavy allegation I'm making. I'm
only making it because what I heard from their people, and they won't
deny it, so for you to challenge me on it, you have to understand,
they're not challenging me on it, and furthermore, our story that
came out in USA Today covers this entire matter. They haven't called
me once to correct any fact in it.

Koppel:
When you say your story, you mean your advertisement.

Miscavige:
Well, there was actually an insert in there that laid out the entire
way that that came about.

Koppel:
Let us get back, during the few minutes we have left in this
broadcast, to discussing Scientology a little, and I made a
suggestion at the beginning of this program, or near the beginning of
the program that, in order to progress within your church, it costs
money. Right? If I'm poor, how far can I progress?

Miscavige:
Pretty far.

Koppel:
How far?

Miscavige:
Well, I'll tell you this, by the time you started getting anywhere
near the top, I guarantee you, you wouldn't be poor anymore, because
generally people in Scientology do better if they honestly make it.

Koppel:
But let us assume there are some folks out there who are just poor.
They don't have any money--

Miscavige:
You know, I don't--

Koppel:
They don't have any friends or relatives who have money. Is this
the right religion for them?

Miscavige:
Oh, absolutely. This is the right religion for anybody. In
Scientology, you're dealing with yourself, you see. Here, we have
this in common with all religions of earth. All religions of earth
try to help man to be better, and to cause him spiritual improvement.
Now, most-- In the Judeo-Christian society, they say if you have
faith and you live your life that you'll achieve spiritual salvation
in the afterlife. We believe in spiritual salvation, but in the here
and now. And that's what we deal with.

Koppel:
I think both Judaism and Christianity, or the proponents of those two
religions, would argue with you that they certainly set forth quite a
number of rules and recommendations and--

Miscavige:
I am not trying to badmouth any other religion, and Ted, I would
never do that. All I'm saying is that they have their way. What's
different in Scientology is how we approach it. There are higher
levels of awareness as a spiritual being, and that's what we're
dealing with in Scientology. Now, for me to talk to you about this
and for you to have a reality on it, I don't think I'm going to get
that and I'll tell you why. You don't have a reality on it. You see,
Scientology is a very personal thing. You ask why somebody would do
it. I'm not making the claims for the church, Ted. Millions of
Scientologists around the world are making that claim. You ask them,
they are happier, they do feel they're more able, they do do better
in life, they know it has helped them. They say it. You can't take
that away. And just like I wouldn't take that away from any other
religion, when somebody then comes about and says that Scientology
doesn't do that, are they telling me I don't have my own feelings?

Koppel:
No, I'm just asking you, and it strikes me as a reasonable question,
but if you can't answer it, you can't answer it. But there must be a
way of explaining, without going into any of the innermost secrets of
the Church of Scientology -- and I understand, your church has some
secrets -- there has to be a way of explaining what it is you do
that's different.

Miscavige:
What is it that we do? That's not very difficult at all. We approach
it on a one-on-one basis. There is absolutely a technology of
Scientology. There's a philosophy which covers the subject of life. I
started talking about communication earlier on. Well, of course, it
covers interpersonal relationships, a million subjects. I don't have
enough time all night to go into them. But separately, there is a
technology that's applied to you as an individual, actual one-on-one counseling where you, you look-- Well, number one, you have to
understand the first premise. You are a spiritual being. You look,
you find out more about yourself, who you are, where you are, where
you have been. A man who can look back and do that is a very
courageous individual. A lot of that includes looking back on your
own past and areas where you went astray. That's similar to other
religions.

Koppel:
It's also similar to psychiatry.

Miscavige:
Listen, I'm not similar to psychiatry at all. I brought one piece of
paper here because I knew this was going to come up. This is
psychology, which covers the subject of religion. It's called
"Religiosity and Pre-Oedipal Fixation"--

Koppel:
Let me stop you one second. I just want to tell any members of our
audience who may just have joined us and not have been with us, my
guest is David Miscavige. You are now the head of the Church of
Scientology.

Miscavige:
Yes.

Koppel:
Right. Okay. Please.

Miscavige:
This is what they say about religion. They say abstract-religious--

Koppel:
Who is this again?

Miscavige:
This is out of the Journal of Genetic Psychology. This is March 1985,
and I want you to understand why I don't like being compared to these
people, because I'm in a completely separate realm. "Religious belief
and observance derive from pre-Oedipal oral and anal drives,
according to psychoanalytic theory, specifically belief in deity and
such concepts as the afterlife are consonant with oral needs for
nurturance from an omnipotent benefactor, coupled with the denial of
death. Observance of ritual and particularly church attendance is a
function of the anal need for regular activity and the anal
compulsive need for regularity and repetitiveness." This is an
offense to any religion. I am not like these people. We deal with the
spirit, they say man's a body, we separate right there. We're
interested in bringing persons to a higher plane. They deal with the
neurotics. They want to bring them up and tell him how to solve his
problems; in Scientology, Ted, we want to bring the individual up to
a higher level ability so that he's more intelligent, he has better
reaction time, he's more able and intelligent so that he can handle
his life better. Now you've handled something.

Koppel:
Explain to me-- And again, going back to the pieces that we saw
before and, by necessity, even though we ended up doing 15 minutes on
these pieces, you end up compressing things.

Miscavige:
Sure.

Koppel:
And I don't want to lead people astray. Talk to me for a moment about
the E-meters. Those are those handles that you see people holding
in the pictures, and they are dealing now with an auditor, an auditor
is the person who-- This is the one-to-one--

Miscavige:
Well, here's what happens.

Koppel:
Yeah.

Miscavige:
It could be me and you sitting across from each other, maybe--

(crosstalk)

Koppel:
Okay, let's say I'm holding the E-meter. What are you doing and
what is that E-meter doing? What is it capable of doing?

Miscavige:
Okay, what it is capable of doing is registering what's bothering
you. It is a guide, it doesn't tell you anything, it doesn't yell
out. Well, it's a meter there, and it sends a little electrical flow
through your body. You're holding something there, very tiny. You
cannot feel it. It shows a reaction. What does that reaction mean?
That reaction just says there's a reaction. You thought something
about it, or something that has some form of mental energy.

Koppel:
A reaction to what, your saying words, and it's almost like free
association, or-- I mean, what am I reacting to?

Miscavige:
Listen, stop comparing it to psychotherapy, because it isn't.

Koppel:
No, no, I'm just asking. What am I--

Miscavige:
It is so-- And by the way-okay, there are a million things you
could do, but you take up an individual subject of a person's life.
I'll bring up the subject of communication; if that isn't you, fine.
People do have problems with this subject. Very specific questions
are asked, the person answers them. He looks, answers the question,
answers it, to handle areas of upset that are upsetting him. He knows
when they are no longer upsetting him. He finds out finally for
himself why they're upsetting him, and they no longer do. That is
what's happening.

Koppel:
What I'm still a little bit lost on is, presumably you and I could do
that--

Miscavige:
Oh, absolutely.

Koppel:
Right now, right?

Miscavige:
Well, you'd have to want to participate.

Koppel:
Fine, and-- But why do we need that piece of equipment?

Miscavige:
Oh, because it's far more accurate. I mean, originally in Dianetics
and Scientology, there was no meter, and you would look at a person--

Koppel:
Okay. So what is the E-meter--

Miscavige:
…and you'd look at a person. I will tell you--

Koppel:
…because I'm looking at a needle sweeping across an arc, right?

Miscavige:
Okay, you would look at the person and hear something similar. I
can see your face flush, or I can see you cry, or I can see you
smile. You can observe people, right? Well, not many people have an
ability to do that, and plus, that is pretty crude. What this does
is, when there's an area of upset, it registers. That's all it does.
When the area of upset no longer exists, it doesn't register. That's
all it does. It is strictly a guide.

Koppel:
And what is the auditor-- What is the auditor doing?

Miscavige:
The communication is taking place between you and I. You see, we're
in there together. I'm asking something about you. You are interested
in finding out something about yourself. I'm there to help you find
that. But I'll tell you, here's where else we differ from
psychotherapy, psychology. Those people would tell you, "This is your
problem." That's a pretty arrogant position to take, for that person
to tell you what's going on, considering every individual on this
planet is different. Scientology, we show you a way to find out for
yourself. And do you know who knows when you've found out? You do.
And if this still doesn't make sense to you, that's because you
haven't done it. I can't be more clear. First principle in
Scientology, by the way, Ted, you should understand is, in studying
the subject or practicing it: Never, ever, ever believe it just
because we say it's so. Only once you have experienced it yourself
and you find this concept to be true should you then consider it to
be true.

Koppel:
Could you, just on the most basic level -- I mean, you say originally
it was done without the E-meter anyway -- could you, on the most
basic level, do it with me right now?

Miscavige:
Oh, absolutely not, because we're not in an environment here that is
conducive to all the elements of auditing.

Koppel:
Why? I mean, I'm perfectly comfortable here.

Miscavige:
Well, here's why, because you're the interviewer here on the program.

Koppel:
All right.

Miscavige:
And you're the one who's in charge here on the program, and you're
interested in doing a program. That instantly throws out the first
three rudiments to doing this, it's not something--

Koppel:
Okay. Fair enough.

Miscavige:
As a matter of fact--

Koppel:
No, I buy that. That's fair enough. One of the other, if you're not
going to use the E-meter, though, Forrest also showed some of the
people working with what, plasticine clay?

Miscavige:
Oh, yeah. You know, I mean, there's a sort of misconception that
comes out. That's part of the study technology of Scientology.

Koppel:
Explain it.

Miscavige:
There's a study technology developed by L. Ron Hubbard. He isolated
the three barriers to study. You see, there's a technology that helps
you study any subject. One of those is not having the mass in front
of you. I'll give you an example.

Koppel:
Not having the what?

Miscavige:
The mass of an object that you're studying in front of you. A good
example, here we are in the studio and we have cameras all over the
place. Imagine you were going to school when you were 15 and you're
studying up on cameras and you've never seen one, okay? You wouldn't
really quite understand it too well. It'd be better if you had the
camera there that you could do it with. Taking something more crude
than that, where we're not talking about electronics, any given area
of study, the ability to demonstrate in clay a concept in the
paragraph allows you to gain a greater understanding of that subject.
This is something that he asked me about in the intro. There was a
piece on it. But generally what people do is, they'll be studying
materials and then they will see if they really understand it by
demonstrating it in this clay, and if they can make a three-dimensional figure of it, it often serves to clarify that concept and
also show whether they understand it or not. And it's part of a study
program, it's not a process of Scientology, we're not looking to make
people better with this. It's strictly a way of studying.

Koppel:
Why is it necessary, in order to progress? I mean, some of the sums
that are charged -- and I literally don't have them; it's not
something I've tucked away in my memory -- but we're talking about, in
some instances, to move from one level to the next level, $7,000,
$10,000, $15,000. Huge sums. Why?

Miscavige:
Yeah, well, okay, number one, we certainly do have a different
donation system than other churches, although not all other churches.

Koppel:
Donation?

Miscavige:
Yeah, absolutely.

Koppel:
You call it a donation.

Miscavige:
Oh, absolutely, because there's people there who are donating to the
church, period.

Koppel:
I understand, but are there people there who are making that progress-- I mean, what, again, to get back to the person who doesn't have any
money, what does he or she do?

Miscavige:
He trains in the subject of Scientology, and then audits somebody
else, and he can be audited by that person, and that's free. You
see, people like to pull out the sexy part, I'd like to point out,
Ted. The people that are complaining about it in your intro, the one
girl there that was complaining about it -- a girl named Vicki Aznaran,
which, by the way, this is a girl who was kicked out for trying to
bring criminals into the church, something she didn't mention.

Koppel:
I think what-- I mean, you say a "girl." I think we're talking about
a grown woman, right?

Miscavige:
A grown woman, excuse me.

Koppel:
Yeah. I mean, and--

Miscavige:
A lady, Vicki Aznaran.

Koppel:
And you and she were at one point--

Miscavige:
I know.

Koppel:
…at one point rivals for the leadership of the--

Miscavige:
Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I have no idea where Forrest got that
from. Absolutely not. She violated the mores and codes of the group.
She was removed for it. I was a trustee of that corporation. She
knows it. The words she said to me is, "I have no future in
Scientology." She wanted to bring bad boys into Scientology, her
words. Now--

Koppel:
What you have just done is one of two things, and I'm not in a
position to judge which it is. Either you have made an accurate
charge against someone or, what a number of your critics and a number
of the pieces that have been written about the Church of Scientology
suggest is that when you have a critic before you, you destroy those
people.

Miscavige:
Yeah? Well, let me tell you, that's easy to say--

Koppel:
You smear them.

Miscavige:
That's easy for the person to say, but she's the one on that
program smearing me. And let me tell you something else, this subject
did come out before, Forrest did have it. I showed her deposition
testimony. She admitted in there that that is what she was trying to
do. She admitted that's why she was pulled out. The fact that Forrest
didn't put that in there is extremely disingenuous. I'm not making
any new charge against her, and let's not also forget the fact that
she is trying get $70 million out of the church, and I think that
explains 70 million reasons why she would make up something like
that. I'm trying to get nothing from her.

Koppel:
Has she sued the church?

Miscavige:
Absolutely.

Koppel:
For $70 million.

Miscavige:
For $70 million.

Koppel:
Where does that case stand right now?

Miscavige:
The case'll drag on for years. It's just been dragging on and on.

Koppel:
Then it's still in the court system.

Miscavige:
Absolutely. Absolutely. But on the subject here, I mean, they bring
that out. Ted, it's simple for people to say that, except I'm not out
there leveling charges out of the blue against people. In fact,
you've got to look at it this way. You've seen the amount of attacks
leveled against my church. I haven't even bothered to come out to
defend myself until this point, and I'm not even here to defend
myself. But if somebody makes a move like that and they say
something, and they have an ulterior motive, I think it should be
explained. It's that simple. You had another example on there, a
Roxanne Friend. This is a horrifying story. This girl was ill. I feel
for her.

Koppel:
Another woman.

Miscavige:
Another woman on there, excuse me, excuse me. I don't mean to say
that in a demeaning way. I'm sorry. She has a horrifying story of
having an illness of cancer, and the word in there is that we didn't
sent her to a church.

Koppel:
To a doctor.

Miscavige:
To a doctor, excuse me. In fact, she's been to a doctor 220 times
while she was in Scientology. In fact, when we sent her out of the
church we asked her to please go to a medical doctor and see if
something was wrong.

Koppel:
The charge, as I recall it, Mr. Miscavige, is that with many of these
people, not just with--

Koppel:
…not just with Ms. Friend -- I'll let you get back to it in just a
second -- the charge is that you inevitably -- I don't mean you
personally, I mean the church -- send people who complain of some
illness to a doctor, but a doctor who is also a Scientologist.

Miscavige:
I don't know where you got it. It's invented. I never heard it in my
life.

Koppel:
So it's-- So if someone-- Well--

Miscavige:
First time I heard it.

Koppel:
It's not the first time, because you've read the L.A. Times series,
and it was in the L.A. Times series.

Miscavige:
Oh, if it was in the L.A. Times series, I didn't read that. Believe me,
I don't read a report on Scientology from the L.A. Times to find out
what it is, so I did not read that in detail.

Koppel:
No, but you've got to understand what your critics are saying--

Miscavige:
This is not so.

Koppel:
…about you, right?

Miscavige:
It's just not so. Not so at all. Just absolutely not so.

Koppel:
Any Scientologist who wants to go to an outside doctor, no problem?

Miscavige:
Anybody he wants. It's just an outrageous charge. I have no idea
where it came from.

Koppel:
Okay. The-- What do you call the folks who are up at the higher level
of your church, the ones in the uniforms? What is that--

Miscavige:
Staff members, Sea-Org members of the church.

Koppel:
Sea-Org? What does that stand for?

Miscavige:
Sea Organization. Originally--

Koppel:
S-E-A.

Miscavige:
Yes, from the sea.

Koppel:
Sea.

Miscavige:
Yeah. Sure. Absolutely. From the ocean.

Koppel:
What does that mean?

Miscavige:
Well, originally this group of people were based on ships at sea, and
that's where the term Sea Organization came from.

Koppel:
That was at a time when all kinds of folks were going after L. Ron
Hubbard and he moved his operation out to sea?

Miscavige:
Not because all kinds of folks were going after L. Ron Hubbard.

Koppel:
Well, I mean, the IRS was going after him, weren't they, at that
time?

Miscavige:
Well, let me tell you, I mean, you know, I went through these
earlier. You want to talk about them. It had nothing-- There was no
cause-and-effect relationship to L. Ron Hubbard being at sea and
these people going after him and therefore he was leaving. But you
want to bring out all sorts of faults. Ted, let's be accurate here.
There have been attacks leveled against Scientology. They uniformly
get reported by the media. The net result doesn't. Let me just go
through them. I mentioned the Food and Drug Administration. They
tried this case for six years. They lost. It was headline press when
it came out. They lost the case, full religious recognition of the
church. They passed their information to Australia. There was a full
inquiry down there. In 1982, the court ruled in our favor and issued
an apology stating that this was an embarrassing chapter in the
history of that country. You talk about the attacks here. The real
story is this, Ted. A new organization, there are new ideas in
Scientology. These get attacked. It's not the first time in the
history of the world that this has happened. This has happened to
many other groups. This happened to Christianity. Bring it up forward
to another religion. Mormonism, it happened to them. It happened to
us. The attacks on us, though, I will say, in the last 40 years, are
unprecedented and unrelenting, not even rivaled by any other group
during that time period. And yet the Church of Scientology has
survived throughout that entire time period, and grown and continue
to grown, to grow. That is the real story of Scientology. And the
only way that can occur is if you have something beneficial to offer
people, and Scientology does. You can talk about all of this. I can
debate with you about that. You can go speak to a Scientologist, which
we made available to "Nightline," and ask them what it has done for
them, and they do applaud it. The people who are detractors, anybody
has critics. That's fine, and I don't-- And I have to tell you, I
don't mind somebody criticizing a valid fact in Scientology, Ted.
I'll be the first one to deal with it. People within the church,
there's various complaints here and there, little ones. I always
investigate them.

Koppel:
Can you understand--

Miscavige:
But wait, but what upsets me--

Koppel:
…can you understand what-- Go ahead.

Miscavige:
…is when one of these critics brings this up and your reporter
doesn't mention the fact that they are suing, or the fact that they
were removed-- And I've shown deposition testimony. You see, it's out
of the realm of what I'm saying, the fact that another man wanted to
kidnap Scientologists, and I showed the documents to your reporter,
and he doesn't put them in. My complaint isn't that the people said
them. My complaint is that the reporter didn't give the motive, and
he should have. He had it available to him and did not show it, it
makes it seem like these people are objective. You want to go around
and check out the controversy it's created in the media because, Ted,
like I said at the beginning of the show, there are 100,000
Scientologists for every one detractor, and when you just show those
people, well, they've picked up the lines, they're coordinated, they
find all little buttons to press and they all say the same ones, and
they're frightened. They're on the show. I spoke to Roxanne Friend
over Christmas. I feel sorry for her, but you know what she said to
me, Ted? She asked me at the end of our conversation, "Dave, please
tell me, is it ever possible for me to come back to Scientology?"
That's the real story, and that isn't on there.

Koppel:
For every minute that we've spent in the report at the beginning, we
have spent roughly five minutes now with you and me talking. I mean,
you are, after all-- We've gone almost an hour and a half--

(crosstalk)

Miscavige:
Very well, and I appreciate it. That's right.

Koppel:
Aren't you capable of responding? I mean, you keep saying, "Why
don't you go talk to the Scientologists?" You're the head
Scientologist. I'm--

Miscavige:
Well, you have to understand this, if you want to understand what
benefits people in Scientology, I can give you my own personal thing,
but what I am not going to do here is tell you-- I am not going to
make claims for other people. What I'm telling you is the best
evidence is the successes of Scientology. Do you want to hear about
mine?

Koppel:
Sure.

Miscavige:
I came to Scientology, I was a young man, I had an acute case of
asthma. I had been to doctor after doctor. Nothing could cure it. My
father heard of Dianetics and Scientology, took me to an individual.
I was with him for an hour. I used exactly what anybody can read in
"Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health." That asthma
disappeared for three years. I say three years because I'm not going
to tell you it went away forever. After that, it came up again and I
dealt with it, and I don't have it now. I do five miles a day. I just
don't have that. Is that the greatest thing it's done for me? No, but
at that point I certainly knew-- I certainly knew it was something
beneficial. I knew it. It's a personal story. What it has done for me
since then is just fabulous, but that is my own personal story. That
is what the story is of Scientology. The successes are endless, Ted.
You see, we talk about these. And that's why I was concerned about
such an intro piece. The story -- 100,000 people off drugs -- that's
help, that's good, I can give you these statistics.

Koppel:
You were talking before about Narconon, right? Narconon operated in
Oklahoma, correct? The state of Oklahoma said, illegitimate group,
tossed you out.

Miscavige:
Well, there you go, now we're going to bring up a new allegation. The
state of Oklahoma--

Koppel:
Well, isn't it true?

Miscavige:
No, they didn't, they didn't toss it out. It's still there and
that's in the court system. In fact, what happened, Ted, is that
various doctors came in to testify. The leading drug rehabilitation
experts in the country came in to testify--

Koppel:
Well, who was--

Miscavige:
Let me finish.

Koppel:
Who was opposing it? Who was trying to get it out?

Miscavige:
The psychiatrists. The mental health board. The leading doctors
across the country, Forrest Tannen, another gentleman whose name
doesn't come to mind right now, testified in behalf. All the
testimony on the efficacy of Narconon program was all in favor of it.
Studies have been done, governmental studies in Spain, in Sweden,
found Narconon to be the most effective drug rehabilitation program
in those countries. One man came in, a psychiatrist, he made
statements about the program. That man was also on record as stating
-- and it's a man named Dr. Gellian West -- out at UCLA, he stated that
living a drug-free existence is an antiquated position in today's
society. The judge in that case ruled that having that man talk about
our drug rehabilitation program is similar to asking Saddam Hussein
to report on the treatment of the Kuwaitis in Kuwait.

Koppel:
So why is it still in the court system?

Miscavige:
The mental health ward is the one who ruled on it, and we couldn't
understand the findings because all the testimony was positive. Both
health inspections they passed, and then at the last minute these
mental health people denied it--

Koppel:
Just--

Miscavige:
Hang on. I gave you the story, though. You want to know?

Koppel:
Sure.

Miscavige:
Just like the FDA, just like that, we get a level playing field, Ted. It always comes out. You're bringing up Narconon now, but you know--

Koppel:
No, you brought it up, that's why I raised it.

Miscavige:
Well, I didn't bring up the Oklahoma matter.

Koppel:
That's correct.

Miscavige:
And you brought that up.

Koppel:
That is correct.

Miscavige:
You want-- You know, if you-- I could have been on here two years ago
and you would have brought something up, and it's over now. There
have been these cases, but in the end, we come out on top, and I'm
telling you, Ted, there are a group of people on this planet who find
us to be a threat to their existence, and they will do everything in
their power to stop us. And that is the mental health field. I didn't
pick a war with them. You can ask them if they feel this way, and
they will tell you that.

Koppel:
One last quick area I want to go into. Explain to me what a "clear"
is.

Miscavige:
Okay. Well, the first book, Dianetics, talks about the mind. And the
subject of the mind-- Well, you have a mind, and I did this with you
before, but anybody can see what their mind is. Their mind is
composed of pictures. Close your eyes, look at a cat, and you'll see
a cat. And those pictures you're seeing are your mind. There's your--
There are parts of this mind. If you use your analytical mind, which
you do your thinking with, which is very analytical -- a perfect
computer is a good analogy. And there is a reactive mind, and this is
the mind that kicks in during any moments of trauma, stress,
unconsciousness. It is recording, a series of pictures of these
incidents. Unknown to the individual, at a later time, these
incidents that are traumatic can come back and affect the person,
affect his rationality, affect his happiness. This is where you find
the cause of a person acting the way he doesn't want to.

Koppel:
Where--

Miscavige:
A clear is--

Koppel:
Yeah.

Miscavige:
A clear is eradicating that reactive mind, so the person no longer
has matters like that not affecting him.

Koppel:
Clears don't get colds.

Miscavige:
Well, I don't know that clears don't get colds, but--

Koppel:
L. Ron Hubbard said clears don't get colds.

Miscavige:
Back in 1951, L. Ron Hubbard, I believe, said in that book that --
postulating that a clear wouldn't get a cold -- so again, you're taking
a line out of context.

Koppel:
So clears do get colds.

Miscavige:
I guess one could.

Koppel:
Okay. In the few seconds that we've got left -- we've got about 45
seconds left -- we've heard a lot from you and I understand there's a
lot more to be said, but why is all of this a religion? And you're
speaking now to a great many people out there who have a different
concept of religion.

Miscavige:
Yeah, well, unfortunately, we've talked about a lot of allegations,
and it's tough to describe a subject when you're dealing, when you
get hit with a litany of accusations at the beginning you're trying
to deal with them. Why Scientology is a religion? Religion is about
the spirit, and Scientology deals with the spirit. We are in the
tradition of the much older religions -- Buddhism, Hinduism -- helping
the person as a spiritual being improve himself. That is what
religion is about. That is why this is a religion. It doesn't fall
into any other field.

Koppel:
And on that note, David Miscavige, let me thank you. I appreciate
very much your joining us.

Miscavige:
Okay. Thank you.

Koppel:
Sunday, on This Week with David Brinkley, the New Hampshire primary,
with Democratic presidential contenders Bill Clinton and Tom Harkin,
and President Bush's campaign chairman, Robert Teeter. That's our
report for tonight. I'm Ted Koppel in Washington. For all of us here
at ABC News, good night.