The phone records are relevant no matter what day or date. It makes no difference what particular theory one cares to adopt. So, as I said, if you would like to initiate a project to research the phone records in greater detail - just say the word.

The Renault Scenic was not inspected by the dogs before the McCanns trip to Huelva. The McCanns left Praia da Luz en-route for Huelva on 3rd August 2007 - the dogs inspection of the Renault Scenic was carried out on 6th August 2007, after the McCanns return from the trip to Spain. You really do need to brush-up on the case in detail and stop "jumping throughout "Processo" files".

Fresh input is always welcome but a return to the days of propagating false information or interpretation is not, at least not on CMoMM.

Meanwhile back on topic please.

____________________“ The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx

If we look at the satellite image in question, that of 3/5/7 we see that there IS, very clearly, cloud over Pdl, and scattered smaller clouds over the whole area to the west, - and there was a WSW breeze . . . Image 1 shows PdL, Lagos on the point to the east and Faro on the next point.

Image 2 show their positions on Google earth. I labelled Baptista supermarket, because the red pointer for PdL is a long way out of town to the west.Image 3 is a enlarged version of 1, but it shows a clear bank of cloud over PdL, running north-south, and many other clouds brewing to the west.Enough to diffuse the sunshine, and to negate the possibility of sharp shadows.Each pixel is approximately 4 km x 4 km.

Image 4 is a ludicrously enlarged version, but the colour difference is sufficient to indicate which is cloud and which is not.

And now we can look at the same scene but taken from the 29/4/7 image, (No. 5) blown up to about the same size, where we see the colour difference when there are no clouds.From that we can work out that the white and grey 'smudge' on the 3/5/7 image over PdL is cloud. Not as thick as that over Lagos and Faro, but nevertheless cloud, sufficient to diffuse the light.

And here I can't see that cloud, if that cloud is big enough anyway. This image is timed and very close to probable time picture was taken.

I am not totally against April 29th, I simply think May 3rd more likely for the fateful day.

As we know McCanns lie all the time. That's perhaps the best picture of Maddie on holidays and they may simply think that's the best match for a last photo (If anyone can guess what those people think).

It's a pity that we can't see the 150+ pictures in "Processo", that would make dating quite easy don't you think?

Lisbon is very hot and sunny during summer (not this year), and yet you seldom have a cloud-free day. I'm aware of that not that I'm an expert in weather, but I like views from tall points in Lisbon (so called "miradouros") and it's really hard finding suitable days because of clouds. When I have one such day, I'll try to get a satellite image, but it seems difficult this year (weather looks like autumn now).

After checking EUMETSAT site and searching for historial image from May 3rd, it's the big one you presented. It's unlabeled but the site says each day they offer a noon UTC image, that is 13:00 as we are in summer time in May, so GMT+1.

The smallest picture with Algarve was taken at 13:12:42 UTC, that is 14:12:42 locally.

After analysing the 2 images for Western Algarve, it seems to me the airmass is moving in East direction.

It is the image. S/he needs to go back to the original - and blow it up.It is very clear.Everyone else can see it.The White / grey pixels are very clear, and when they are compared with the green pixels on the 29/4/7 image the difference is striking - (unless people want to disbelieve what they are seeing. I realise it is challenging !)

And those who do not, can go back to the the original source and do their own research.

3/5/7 was a day of broken cloud, which cleared away by the late evening, hence the lovely sunset photos. It was cold and windy as the windsurfers found to their joy, but as the resident in PdL said "Not pool dipping weather"

I am trying to put the most favourable interpretation that I can on your posts. So far, your case (I think) is that:

1 Madeleine died in Praia da Luz on that holiday

2 You agree with the theory of Goncalo Amaral that Madeleine died, probably from an accident, some time after 6pm on Thursday 3 May when the McCanns said they returned from an alleged 'high tea' with Catriona Baker, and

3 So far you are not persuaded, despite the photographic evidence presented, that the 'Last Photo' was taken on Sunday lunchtime, 29 April.

In that case, here are two threads that you might wish to consider very carefully:

These two threads discuss the impossibility - if Madeleine did die from an accident after 6pm on the Thursday - of the McCanns and their friends arranging to hide the body, plan and carry out an abduction hoax, and all sit down for dinner together by 8.45pm that evening.

You should also not only carefully consider the above two threads, but also look at the threads on here where a Mod called Lizzy Hideho has examined all claimed sightings of Madeleine after Sunday that were both credible and 'independent'.

She concluded that there were none.

All these various lines of evidence point only in one direction.

This is no discourtesy to Goncalo Amaral. He was booted off the case after 5 months. We, however, have had over 11 years to collect, sift and weigh much additional evidence that he and his team were completely unaware of.

Including the revelatory satellite images that Petermac found a few weeks ago.

It was also the incomparable Petermac who accumulated the huge amount of photographic and meteorological evidence about the Last Photo. Every chapter of his e-book is worth a close read

.

____________________

Kate McCann, in her book 'madeleine', page 5: "Since 3 May 2007, there has undoubtedly been much going on behind the scenes we haven't known about and perhaps never will".Goncalo Amaral: "We will know the truth about what happened to Madeleine when the MI5 files on her case are made public".

2. I'm not sure about an accident. There was blood, so she might not have died naturally. If she died naturally, why should parents hide body? Same for accident, except if police could think that was not an accident… (or that wasn’t an accident period).

3. I'm only sure the picture was taken at some time around solar noon. Not about date. Neither am I sure that's really Maddie's last photo. That's a statement by McCanns, and they can be lying again.

I had already checked your first link. I’ll check second.

There’s a big mystery whether it’s 4 hours or 4 days. Gerry already demonstrated he can do things beyond what any normal person can, like have a visit from British Ambassador and Consul (that surprised PJ and happened during first 72h of investigation, crucial time), have a PM ask for dismissal of a policeman abroad, interfere in criminal investigation, even discredit forensic dogs (where are they, by the way?), use a fund fraudulently without punishment, and so many other things.

You didn’t comment Catriona’s testimony and “Chreche” records. You didn’t comment about holiday pictures in “Processo”. Amaral did most of investigation during those 5 months and he didn’t give up the case. I don’t think Amaral is infallible of course, but I truly respect his work and I’m aware he saw much more things in loco than anyone else.

I agree with you, Amaral did an amazing job but unfortunately his investigation was marred by interference from the UK Government, UK Police, the Media and the corrupt PIs employed by the McCanns in a private investigation which only served to mislead the PJ and plant false evidence, false witnesses etc.

Have you seen Richard Halls' documentary "when Madeleine died"? In there you may see that a number of witnesses which may have appeared both credible and independent in the earlier days, now appear to have been possibly planted and are not credible or independent at all. This comes about due to further research and evidence becoming apparent after the case had been closed. For example, Amaral would have accepted the testimony of Catriona Baker as an independent witness, but without the knowledge that she was already known to the daughter of Jon Corner. Mrs Fenn and the Smith statements are also brought into question as in hindsight, the three statements made (not nine) did not stand up to scrutiny.

We also have the presence of a number of Government officials descending on PDL very early on, if not before May 3rd. Journalists arrived in record time, especially one from the Olive Grove who travelled from Spain and still got there very early. Robert Murat arrived on May 1st and CEOP had a website post in waiting at the end of April 2007. All theses things point to Madeleine having died earlier and we could not find one credible witness who had genuinely seen Madeleine or the McCanns as a family of 5, after April 29th. Add to the fact that the shutters to the kids room was kept shut and the McCanns were no longer joining their friends for breakfast from 29th April. They were entering and leaving the apartment by different doors. Were they avoiding being seen as a family of only four?

For these reasons and many more, we concluded that Madeleine died as early as April 29th and that strong forces were at play to disrupt the investigation. Amaral and his team did a brilliant job but how, within five months, and all this interference, could they possibly guess the extent of the UK government interference in the early days.

____________________"WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER" - Rebekah Brooks to David Cameron

Dating would be very easy if the McCanns had handed over their camera. Alex Woolfall (crisis manager brought in by Mark Warner) made it his business to go through the pictures before the PJ got them. As well, I wouldn't take any information on the creche sheets as fact. You may be aware of the Textusa website? They have a theory the pool photo was taken after Madeleine disappeared, so if you like a debate you could go there.

The 'Last Photo' is suspect if only because it was produced weeks after a less suitable photograph of Madeleine was put out on posters. The T7 seem cagey around how these came about:

[Russell O'Brien's rogatory]:

"We tried to get, we tried to get the photograph, erm, Kate certainly had some on her camera, they were looking for one, you know, face on that was big enough rather than a, you know, a profile or something, so that took a little while".

How long could it take? There were all of 5 photographs of Madeleine on Kate's camera taken during the holiday. Each showed her face well enough for an emergency appeal.

I think there were other reasons for trawling through the camera. Remember that Gerry said, "Madeleine loved to be photographed". What other pictures were on there? Who else was taking pictures of her?

[David Payne's rogatory]:

1485 ”You mentioned early on [...] a photo.”Reply ”Oh yes, I mean...”1485 ”Where did that come from?”Reply ”Err where did the photo come from? That’s a very good question, err I’m not sure whether it was from Gerry’s digital camera or one of the digital cameras that we had there from my recollection. Err but you know, it was, sorry I can’t, I can’t remember exactly. I seem to remember it was one of the digital cameras but that’s about as far as it...”1485 ”Can you remember the pose in which Madeleine was on the photo?”Reply ”Err I can’t, no.”

Even if its purpose was not explicitly to serve as proof that Madeleine was alive and well at 2.29pm on Thursday, the Last Photo (whenever it was taken) was intended to show a happy family on holiday in the sun, and was used by newspapers exactly as that, with the heart-tugging obsevation that this was just hours before Maddie was 'snatched'. The Crimewatch reconstruction of the photo went full on, with a swimsuited Kate shown joining in the paddle-and-splash. (Wickedly, the programme extrapolated the one of Maddie clutching tennis balls alone on court into a happy child scurrying around playing fetch as Kate and Gerry knocked up: "There was also time for them to be together, as a family.")

As Goebbels knew, a photo puts prop in propaganda:

KM: "The time we had by the-the pool and the play area that day was... it was a really fun time that day? It was particularly fun."

GM: "She was sittin' in there in her little... in her dress, and a hat on, and I was paddlin' ma feet."

KM: "It was sunny and that's where we've got the, em, the photograph. The last photograph."

Without that photograph there is evidence only of two cold, selfish people taking every opportunity to dump the children into "their clubs".

"....Russell later asked us for our digital photos of Madeleine and went off somewhere with our camera...."

"A week had now passed since Madeleine’s abduction....

Meanwhile, Gerry and I, along with a couple of our friends, were called back to the police station in Portimão. The police were much friendlier on this occasion and the junior officers, at least, gave the impression that by this time they were working very hard. Gerry was taken in to be interviewed while I remained downstairs. I made use of the long wait I anticipated by sitting down with a notebook, pen and my camera, containing dated photographs of the holiday, and trying to write a detailed account of everything that had happened the week before.

madeleine by KATE MCCANN

____________________“ The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx

Disclosing the picture 3 weeks after disappearance and concealing it from Police is suspect, but almost everything Gerry says and does is suspect. Whatever date the picture was taken, we can't take for granted it was last picture by Gerry's word. IMHO.

I must be repetitive in that more than 150 holiday pictures in "Processo" may date the so-called last picture without any major doubts. Don't you agree?

Why McCanns only displayed that pic and 4 more to the public is suspect again. Pictures handed over to Police are all in daytime (info from Amaral's book), suspect again.

Thanks. Is that information about Government officials coming before May 3rd from Hall's video or can you offer a link?

@ PLL @ sharonl's post did not actually say that government officials arrived before May 3rd. It's important we don't misrepresent what other forum members say.

These were her actual words: "We also have the presence of a number of Government officials descending on PDL very early on, if not before May 3rd".

We do not know for sure that any government officials arrived before 3rd May. But they may have done.

We know that Robert Murat arrived in Praia da Luz very early on Tuesday 1 May. It is quite possible that he acted as an agent of the government. He was an official Portuguese-English translator for Norfolk Police. We know that the British Ambassador recommended to the PJ that they use Robert Murat (!). We also (thanks to the PJ) have a record of two very strange conversations Murat had with Martin Brunt, who is the Chief Crime Correspondent for Rupert Murdoch's SKY News. All of that - plus his 17 lies about his movements on 1-3 May when first questioned by the PJ - are more than enough to suspect him of being a government agent. In his last Madeleine film, Richard Hall suggests that Brunt may be an MI5 asset. Brunt was responsible for exposing Brenda Leyland, a vulnerable, single, divorcee, as the Twitter poster 'sweepyface', which resulted in her committing suicide three days later.

ON TOPIC, one of those who rushed out to Praia da Luz immediately was Alex Woolfall - see list below. It's pretty clear that he, Gerry McCann and Michael Wright got together to carefully delete, crop and select which photos would be handed to the PJ on 8 & 9 May 2007. We KNOW that the 'Last Photo' was no among them. I wonder why??

Woolfall was from Bell Pottinger, a firm that has since gone bust in disgrace.

We know that the Managing Director and Deputy from 'RESONATE', a PR subsidiary of Bell Pottinger, were in Praia da Luz during the week BEFORE Madeleine McCann was reported missing. Why?? They linked up with Alex Woolfall as soon as he arrived in Praia da Luz.

I've decided to add a link but also reprint the original list of those who rushed out to Praia da Luz below. We have since found out a few other names which should be added to the list:

THE PEOPLE WHO RUSHED OUT TO PRAIA DA LUZ AFTER 3 MAY 2007 AND BY FRIDAY 11 MAY 2007

This summarises a list of those known to have rushed out to Praia da Luz after 3 May 2007 (or on the case of Resonate and Robert Murat, BEFORE then). Dates of arrival given where known, all before Thursday May 10 unless otherwise stated

Government officials

Robert Henderson – British Consul for the Algarve – immediate (persuaded Portuguese Police to allow the McCanns to wash clothes before seizing them)

John Buck – British Ambassador to Portugal (Lisbon), arrived immediately

Alex Woolfall, Head of Risk for international PR company Bell Pottinger, arrived 4 May (helped to edit Gerry McCann’s photos before putting them on a disc for the PJ)

Lawyers

Staff from the recently-formed International Family Law Group (IFLG):

Michael Nicholls, barrister, arrived 11 May

Accompanied by a ‘paralegal’ from Leicestershire, arrived 11 May

There are references to other government lawyers having arrived

Top staff from Mark Warner (company that organised the holiday)

David Hopkins, Managing Director of Mark Warner

One of his senior colleagues

Interpreters

Robert Murat became the initial main interpreter for the Portuguese Police on 4 May. Hehad already flown out from England on 1 May. He was recommended by British Consul Robert Henderson

Religious Organisations

Rev. Haynes and Susan Hubbard mysteriously arrived in Praia da Luz from Canada on Sunday 6 May, to take up an appointment as the Anglican Minister in Praia da Luz. The Hubbards rapidly became very close friends of the Mccanns

Others

‘Hugh’ – Kate in her book says he would only identify himself as ‘Hugh’, he was brought in by Control Risks Group and said he was ‘a former intelligence officer, now a kidnap negotiator and counsellor’. He attended meeting with the lawyers from IFLG

OTHER APPOINTMENTS

Clarence Mitchell, Head of the government’s Media Monitoring Unit: According to the reply to a Freedom of Information request, he was appointed on Sunday 6 May to head up the government’s PR support for the McCanns, but he did not travel to Portugal until 22 May 2007

The government set up a very high-powered liaison committee on Tuesday 8 May under the Chairmanship of Matt Baggott, Leicestershire Police Chief Constable. It consisted of representatives from a wide variety of government departments and agencies. The government has refused to answer FoIAct questions about who those agencies were.

Government Ministers Gordon Brown (Chancellor of the Exchequer) and Margaret Beckett (Foreign Secretary) spoke to Gerry McCann in the first week. Tony Blair, Prime Minister, did so later.

Literally hundreds of international journalists were also there in that first week.

.

____________________

Kate McCann, in her book 'madeleine', page 5: "Since 3 May 2007, there has undoubtedly been much going on behind the scenes we haven't known about and perhaps never will".Goncalo Amaral: "We will know the truth about what happened to Madeleine when the MI5 files on her case are made public".

If sharonl says Government officials might have come before May 3rd, I think it reasonable to think that there might be information somehow supporting that and ask for it.

We’re here to discuss ideas and it’s unavoidable that some misinterpretation will happen from time to time. Provided we keep discussing ideas that will likely be temporary and so nothing serious. This is better than commenting precise semantics of what each one writes. IMHO.

May 09, 2007Mark Warner, the holiday company at the centre of the Portuguese kidnap story, is using the Bell Pottinger Group for help with the crisis.

Head of issues and crisis management Alex Woolfall is on location in Portugal and reports directly to MD ­David Hopkins.Mark Warner brought in Resonate on a generic brief a week before three-year-old Madeleine McCann was kidnapped from its Portuguese resort in Praia da Luz. MD Michael Froh­lich then referred the firm to his parent company’s crisis specialist.Frohlich and Resonate dir­ector Tricia Moon are helping liaise with the British Consulate in Portugal, the Portuguese Police and the Portuguese and UK media.They are working with staff at Mark Warner’s Kensington headquarters.

When the issue of Frolich/Moon was raised before, I noted that in some places the article had been copied over with the final para/sentence omitted, which makes a difference.

I haven't personally seen any other info to suggest that they were physically in PDL before the 3 May (or after for that matter). That is not to say there isn't evidence to confirm that they were there, I just haven't seen it. Having said that, it seems highly co-incidental that Resonate was brought in just before a child is reported to have disappeared from the resort. I don't believe it had any connection to the undercover visit by the BBC reporter to the MW creche in Egypt and the subsequent negative expose as this didn't break until March 08.

I have gone back to the original images, which are supplied in .png format

"The main difference between JPG and PNG is the compression algorithms that they use. JPG uses a lossy compression algorithm that discards some of the image information in order to reduce the size of the file. ... With PNG, the quality of the image will not change, but the size of the file will usually be larger."

In order to show them on the forum I think they have to be in .jpeg format, which means some of the image is lost, and zooming them only exacerbates that.The originals are 850 kB, and when saved as .jpeg are only 400 kB

I have put the two .png images 3/5/7 and 29/4/7 side by side and used 'grab' to make a single image. That is a .jpeg image of 360 kBI then zoomed both images by the same amount (5 clicks to be accurate), centred the images, and took another 'grab'I then zoomed to the maximum, centred the images, and did this again

In the first we can immediately see the cloud, and the colour of the land, either green or brown showing uncultivated hills ( the infamous lawless hinterlands ?)On 3/5/7 we can clearly see thick cloud over Lagos, and over Faro but equally clearly can see cloud over PdL. Not as thick, but nevertheless clearly visible.Comparing it with 29/4/7 the colour difference is obvious.

In the second we can identify that cloud by the white/grey colour of the smudge shown by the arrow to the left, which shows PdL

In the third, where each pixel is 4 km square the difference in colours is dramatic. PdL is grey and white on 3/5/7, but green and brown on 29/4/7

Still a work in progress, but if you want to post it as a reply, then feel free.

Welcome to EUMETSAT — EUMETSATwww.eumetsat.intLATEST FROM EUMETSAT. Reorganisation of EUMETCast Satellite data flows For a better usage and share of the EUMETCast Satellite bandwidth the data flows are being reorganised in August 2018, impacting the Sentinel-3A, GOES-16 and NOAA-20 services.

@sharonl wrote: [...] Amaral would have accepted the testimony of Catriona Baker as an independent witness, but without the knowledge that she was already known to the daughter of Jon Corner. Mrs Fenn and the Smith statements are also brought into question as in hindsight, the three statements made (not nine) did not stand up to scrutiny. [...]

I hope I'm not off-topic as I think we're dating so-called last photo here and I'm answering your comment in context with what I wrote before.

I have checked all testimonies by "Creche" leaders in "Processo" files to find who stated that saw Madeleine during holidays.

I dismissed reports of one only undated sightseeing and considered only resports of a few sightseeings or precise dates:

- Leaders who saw Madeleine a few times during holiday:

Amy T., Susan O., Stacey P., Sarah W., Lindsay J., Jaqcqueline W..

- Leaders who saw Madeleine on May 3rd, apart from Catriona:

Emma W.(morning and afternoon) and Charlotte P. (untimed, but says they both talked and she told her stories).

Even if Catriona might not be independent (but would she committ perjury before police officials and risk prison just because she knows the daughter of Jon?), we have Emma and Charlotte. Is it plausible that McCanns tried to bribe leaders and 3 took the money (if not the other 6, too)?

I think that trying to bribe some people is risky as one not only may face non-colaborators but also gambles on information leaking.

Even if the so-called last photo was taken on April 29th, McCanns may just be lying once again when they say it's last photo.

Anyway, about this picture, a lot of emphasis is placed on people playing tennis or mini-tennis (but those are not mini balls) at the time, so it had to be taken on April 30th. But no need to. She could easily enter tennis court at any time and get a few balls.

To me, the above photos were obviously taken in a playground (same upper-body clothing) and are part of a series of snaps (below being a fourth) In the one with Gerry, Amelie and Madeleine it appears from their posture to also have been taken on the see-saw, as is the close-up one of Madeleine alone, where she is holding on to the hooped bar.

@Phoebe wrote:To me, the above photos were obviously taken in a playground (same upper-body clothing) and are part of a series of snaps (below being a fourth) In the one with Gerry, Amelie and Madeleine it appears from their posture to also have been taken on the see-saw, as is the close-up one of Madeleine alone, where she is holding on to the hooped bar.

Just behind the slide Amellie ,Gerry,park near Rothley,Leicestershire,April 2007,its a pity these pictures weren't available on Madeleine's disappearance for comparison?

It's amazing what you can find when you put your mind to something isn't it,Sean could be on the swings!

Eddie and Keela alerted to items and places concerned with the McCanns - and importantly to no other items or places.

According to Eddie and Keela, the body of Madeleine McCann lay lifeless behind the sofa in Apartment 5a, clinging to the only thing from which she could derive any comfort; a soft toy called 'Cuddle cat'.

Kate's book 'madeleine', Page 219: "Did they really believe that a dog could smell the 'odour of death' three months later from a body that had been so swiftly removed?"

After forensic analysis of the 'Last Photo' there is little doubt now that the pool photo CANNOT POSSIBLY have been taken on the Thursday 3rd May, but most likely on the Sunday 29th April. So, where was Madeleine at lunchtime on Thursday?

John McCann:"This was terrible for them, Kate dressed Amelie in her sister's pyjamas and the baby said: "Maddy's jammies, where is Maddy?"Martin Roberts:"If Madeleine's pyjamas had not, in fact, been abducted then neither had Madeleine McCann."Dr Martin Roberts: A Nightwear Job

Death Toll in McCann Case

Gerry McCann called for an example to be made of 'trolls'. SKY reporter Martin Brunt doorstepped Brenda Leyland on 2 October 2014 after a 'Dossier' was handed in to Police by McCann supporters. She was then found dead in a Leicester hotel room the next day. Brenda paid the price.

Colin Sahlke died suddenly in mysterious circumstances with a significant amount of morphine in his system. At the Inquest the coroner said there was no evidence as to how he had come to take morphine, and no needle mark was found.Gerry McCann had met Sahlkebefore he helped with the search but did not show any concern for his death. Link

Ex-Met DCI Andy Redwood had a "revelation moment" on BBC1's Crimewatch on 14th October 2013 when he announced that Operation Grange had eliminated the Tanner sighting - which opened up the 'window' of opportunity' from 3 minutes to 45 minutes, in accordance with their remit, to allow the staged abduction to happen.

The 'SunOnline' journalist, Tracey Kandohla: "A McCann pal told The Sun Online: "Some of the savings have been siphoned off from the Find Maddie Fund into a fixed asset account, which financial experts have advised them to do. It can be used for purchases like buying a house, or building equipment."

Portuguese University Professor, André Ventura(2017): "I think this was probably the Crime of the Century in Portugal. If the much acclaimed effort of the English police to find Maddie fails to produce results, despite the massive amount already invested, wouldn’t it be wise to reopen the investigation in Portugal, placing the homicide hypothesis again on the table?"