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Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

Originally Posted by Fox

So Cindervines is actually anti-Counterbalance above everything else. You play it, and you not only get closer to winning (deals passive damage), but you also invalidate not on-board [yet] Counterbalance. Cindervines is also far more maindeckable than Abrade isn't b/c no decks play without noncreature spells, artifacts, and enchantments; also Goyf counts this card.

RUG isn't ever really coming back to its glory days, but unlike pretty much anyone else in the format this deck can stop at throwing away only 4 slots of sideboard to have a reasonable shot vs both Hymn and CB (for Grixis you'd just use some hot garbage they can't even begin to interact with, like Compost). Enjoy it, no other deck can play legacy with 11 intact sideboard slots (for the rest of the format) and have such clean proactive answers to those two blights on the format.

I don't think that you can maindeck this card because I think there are too many matchups where it's basically just RG Lava Spike.
I might not even board this in vs Grixis because it's such a slow source of damage and there are basically no targets to hit with the ability.
But I do like that it has very strong anti-control applications vs CB and B2B (and the trigger) and it can come down for 2 mana before a Moon or a Trinisphere.
Looks worth testing but I seriously doubt the correct decision is to jam 4 in the board lol

Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

I'm smashing BKClassic and Jesture's list together and trying it out tonight at a weekly 20+ player 4 rounds tournament. My metagame contains mostly Eldrazi and DnT/Maverick as aggro decks, Miracles and Grixis as control decks, and Reanimator and Lands as combo decks so I think Spell Snares instead of Stifle package is where I want to be. This deck reminds me a lot of Next Level Thresh... I'll let y'all know how it goes!

Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?

I got to the shop early and played 1 pre-board and 3 post-board games against Miracles. I lose pre-board to a timely Terminus with Force backup into Jace on the lethal turn.
In: 2 Pyro 2 Fluster 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 3 Noble 1 Tarfire 1 Forked 1 Daze

I take the first pre-board game riding Library. Lose the 2nd one to CB + B2B into Terminus with counter backup. Finally win the last one riding Orb. The games were good but I could use a 3rd Pyroblast out of the board.

R4 vs. UW StoneStill 2-0
-On the play
G1: I flood out with 4 Wastes and Pierce and Snare 2 Standstills. Opponent resolves a Teferi but I topdeck a TNN into Noble that goes all the way.
In: 2 Fluster 2 Pyro 2 Abrade 1 Grudge 1 Library 1 Orb
Out: 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire 1 Forked 3 Noble
G2: I play a Delver that gets Sworded then we fight over a Gideon and I win with 3 counters. Then I slam Library into Orb and ride a TNN to victory.

G2: Orb and Wastes take the game with TNN beats and soft counters
G3: Super long and grindy game with both of us at 1 life. A great match with many complete 180s. He gets a Strix while I draw a Daze and lose.

Spell Snare did a huge amount of work against all the control decks and Reanimator. I am definitely happy I had it over Stifle today.

Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?

Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

@Qweerios
-One of the biggest reasons I run Stifle over Spell Snare mainboard is because I'm playing online where Show and Tell is on the uptick and I just can't afford to have a counterspell that does nothing against Show and Tell. For your meta, Spell Snare and this deck in general look really good.
-Regarding your sideboarding against UB reanimator, I would not be boarding out Hooting Mandrills. A 1 mana Tarmogoyf is a lot better than a two mana Tarmogoyf when you need to hold up counter magic.
-I would definitely be boarding out Force of Will against Grixis Control and I wouldn't board out Noble Hierarch. The huge tempo swing, especially on the draw, vastly outweighs the risk of their 2 sweepers and 1 Liliana, the Last Hope. The risk is also mitigated by not have the card disadvantage of Force of Will. I only board out Noble Hierarch against Miracles.

G2: Orb and Wastes take the game with TNN beats and soft counters
G3: Super long and grindy game with both of us at 1 life. A great match with many complete 180s. He gets a Strix while I draw a Daze and lose.

Regarding your Grixis Control matchup, what's the rationale for taking out Noble Hierarchs? I've always liked them more than Tarmogoyfs here, as they're helping you get ahead a hold on the game early while also insulating against Edict effects.

My build's a little different, but if I were playing your 75 I'd consider something like this for sideboarding:

Cards coming in are pretty straight forward, I think I'm a little less high on Flusterstorm if we already have 2 Snares in the deck. I don't mind leaving a couple of bolts in for reach and Strix, but I was surprised to see you shave the Tarfire and Noble Hierarchs while leaving in the Tarmogoyfs. That 5th point of attack is crucial for getting past Gurmag Angler.

Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

Thanks for your replies! I think you are both making good points about strategies I was unsure of...

@BKClassic,

It is true that Snare is worthless against SnT. I am willing to make that sacrifice given that Depths and Reanimator are much worst matchups IMO. I'd rather fight SnT with a good SB and it isn't all that common in my meta (rarely more than 1-2 players). I also think that Preordain and threat#15 or burn#6 have more value than Stifle in general so I wouldn't be able to play a full set...

I preffer Goyf to Mandrill against Reanimator because he puts on the pressure faster with a Noble/Daze/FoW/Surgical hand. I guess I could side out TNN instead of Mandrill but I valued the blue card for FoW and the clock against a Reanimated Griselbrand/Grave Titan of TNN over the low cost of Mandrills here. I wouldn't blame anyone for choosing Mandrill over TNN in this matchup either.

I thought a "protect the queen" strategy would be appropriate against Grixis as it is against Miracles and that FoW would become castable. FoW is definitely not that bad against Grixis because as the game drags on they tend to flood on lands FoW's card disadvantage evens out. I had not thought about multiple Edict effects and how Noble could act as a buffer here. Going forward I definitely won't keep any more than 1-2 FoW against Grixis Ctrl and review my boarding strategy.

@Jesture,

I think taking out Nobles was a mistake and I should have used them to pressure Strixes and buffer Edicts over FoW.

Goyf is surprisingly good against Grixis because it doesn't die to Bolt, KCommand and LtLH. He is also bigger than Gurmag once a Strix or PW hits the GY. I even had Goyf swing in for 6 on T3 in one of those games. They only play 2-3 Pushes after all so Goyf tends to stick around and buffers Edicts for TNN much better than Noble.

Flusterstorm is very good against Snapcaster (Storm starts at 3), KCommand and Deluge. It also counters cantrips when they are low on Lands or stumbling against TNN/Mandrills.

I think burn spells are by far the worst cards in this matchup followed by either FoW or Noble. I also won't be siding in a single Dismember for their 0-2 Anglers anymore because the life cost is sometimes impossible to meet or puts you in burn reach when riding Library. I think FoW#2 is also better now that I keep Nobles postboard. This is what I'll be trying out next:
In: 3 Pyro 2 Fluster 1 Grim 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire 1 Forked 2 FoW

Thanks for your insights, I really enjoy playing this deck!

Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?

Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

Originally Posted by Qweerios

@Jesture,

I think taking out Nobles was a mistake and I should have used them to pressure Strixes and buffer Edicts over FoW.

Goyf is surprisingly good against Grixis because it doesn't die to Bolt, KCommand and LtLH. He is also bigger than Gurmag once a Strix or PW hits the GY. I even had Goyf swing in for 6 on T3 in one of those games. They only play 2-3 Pushes after all so Goyf tends to stick around and buffers Edicts for TNN much better than Noble.

Flusterstorm is very good against Snapcaster (Storm starts at 3), KCommand and Deluge. It also counters cantrips when they are low on Lands or stumbling against TNN/Mandrills.

I think burn spells are by far the worst cards in this matchup followed by either FoW or Noble. I also won't be siding in a single Dismember for their 0-2 Anglers anymore because the life cost is sometimes impossible to meet or puts you in burn reach when riding Library. I think FoW#2 is also better now that I keep Nobles postboard. This is what I'll be trying out next:
In: 3 Pyro 2 Fluster 1 Grim 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire 1 Forked 2 FoW

Thanks for your insights, I really enjoy playing this deck!

All fair points. I've been hinging my 75 on Winter Orb which in turn means there's a couple of things that we'll be doing differently (for example I'm pretty unlikely to cut FoW vs Grixis Control solely for how good it is with Orb.) That said, I think you make some pretty solid points about Tarmogoyf and its role in the matchup. I'll do a bit of tinkering with the deck going forward, as I'm happy with the results so far but still think the 75 could use some work.

Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

I've been mulling over my list in search of a way to improve Eldrazi, various Control matchups, Lands and Reanimator. I ended up making slight modifications to the main and side and review some of my SB plans. Here are the changes:

-4th Goyf over 2nd Mandrills. Goyf is the better tempo play and one of our only legs to stand on against Eldrazi and Anglers. He puts on a better clock against Combo decks as well and is basically the next best thing after Delver. Mandrills act more as a 5th Goyf than a 4th TNN most of the time. Decay being uncommon and Push seeing play in very few decks makes Goyf my preffered choice for its size and casting cost.

-I moved the Dismember main over Forked Bolt to improve my odds against Eldrazis and Angler and free up a SB slot for that 3rd Pyroblast I wanted. Dismember and Forked were functionnally similar anyway.

-I changed the single Crypt in my SB for an Ooze. This change helps against Bolt decks, Maverick, Lands, and adds a relevant threat against Snapcaster decks and Storm. The only downside is to have a slower but more powerful piece of GY hate against Reanimator and Dredge. I only consider Ooze a suitable 4th piece of GY hate because of Nobles.

-The last change is a small swap from Grudge to Revelry. This change allows me to get rid of Choke and Blood Moon and have another card to bring in against Miracles and Lands.

Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

Don't love the Thin Lizzies [Pteramander], nor the Mishra's Bauble singleton, but nice to see the 1/1 Cindervines split doing well: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20983&f=LE (205 decks). Move away from Stifle and Goose at same time was pretty bold, but I generally like downplaying the Stifle side of this deck. Replacing said Stifles with Preordain while also going up to 19 lands struck me as odd. Anyways congrats to Yoan42, and hoping he/she can write up a tournament report if they use the Source.

Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

Originally Posted by Fox

Don't love the Thin Lizzies [Pteramander], nor the Mishra's Bauble singleton, but nice to see the 1/1 Cindervines split doing well: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20983&f=LE (205 decks). Move away from Stifle and Goose at same time was pretty bold, but I generally like downplaying the Stifle side of this deck. Replacing said Stifles with Preordain while also going up to 19 lands struck me as odd. Anyways congrats to Yoan42, and hoping he/she can write up a tournament report if they use the Source.

Pretty sure that's a fake decklist, there's no record of it on the 5-0 compilation.

R1: 2-1 vs. 4c Loam
G1 I run him over with Goyf and Delver
G2 I Force T1 Chalice and get Waste+Loam+Lily out of the game.
G3 Goyf and TNN take him out quickly.

R2: 1-2 vs. Burn
G1 I get stuck on 1 land against a tripple Goblin Guide hand.
G2 a pair of Goyfs and counters get there easily.
G3 I missplay and lose a T2 2/3 Goyf to a suspended Rift Bolt thinking it was an instant. I eventually stabilize at 4 life with Goyf and Ooze on an empty board with Pierce and FoW backup and plenty of creatures in the GY but I die to Exquisite Firecraft...

R2: 2-0 vs. BR Reanimator
G1 and G2 I have a counterspell for everything he does.

R4: 0-2 vs. DnT
G1 He opens with a Vial into tripple Waste so I lose.
G2 I'm in a great position with Library, Noble, Mandrill, and 2 TNN whiles hes at 8 life but he has an active Mom and swings with Crusader equiped with SoFaI and kills mongoose. Library didn't find any burn or artifact removal to close it.

After that tournament I cut a Spell Snare for a basic Island.

Weekly 3-1

R1: 2-1 vs. Deadguy Ale
G1 Easy ride on double Goyf
G2 I get stuck on Trop and Noble against a Spirit of the Labyrinth. I can't cantrip or Bolt and my threats are TNN and Grim so I lose to Sculler and Spirit beats
G3 I am facing a tripple Wasteland opener but my basic Island allows me to develop and lock him under Orb. Delver gets there.

R2: 1-2 vs. Lands
G1 I get Noble into tripple Delver opener but 2 turns and Brainstorm won't give me a flip. I nearly lose to Tabernacle but close it out for exactsies when my opponent missplayed.
G2 I have a great opener with a Noble Goyf Library and counters. Library gives me a bunch of cards and Surgical but regular land drops into T4 Marrit Lage kills me
G3 I get a Noble opener with Ooze and Pierce but get Wasted. I cantrip into Island and get Ghost Quartered + Loam and never find another land.

R3: 2-1 vs. Grixis Delver
G1 I face a Delver opener with double Wastelands but my 1-lander has 3 Delvers and a Daze so I fetch an Island and run him over while he cantrips away.
G2 I have a perfect hand of Noble with threats removal and lands but I lose to a mulligan to 5 with 2 Delvers and a Gurmag while I flood with 4 consecutive land draws.
G3 I have an explosive Noble opener with Delver Bolt Goyf Daze and Mandrill. I clear his board and empty my threats on board by T4 and he never gets back up.

R4: 2-0 vs. Grixis Control
G1 I ride an early Goyf and Waste to victory
G2 I ride a quick double Goyf opener with Daze and Noble

Going forward I need a better plan against Lands. Even if I manage to extract Loam I have no good way to stop Marrit Lage. I have my eyes on Dead // Gone over Tarfire and/or Grim. Here's my boarding plan:

Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

Originally Posted by Qweerios

Going forward I need a better plan against Lands. Even if I manage to extract Loam I have no good way to stop Marrit Lage. I have my eyes on Dead // Gone over Tarfire and/or Grim. Here's my boarding plan:

There isn't anything very special with this list, apart from the 19th land which I found to be helpful with casting TNN, playing against B2B and against Assassin's Trophy. Also, I always seem to enjoy drawing Pteramander late game, but not early game. Having a singleton instead of the 4th goyf has been good up until now.

Finally, I kept the mongeese instead of going for Noble Hierarchs as some of you have done. I love them for the control matchups and have always found it to be our best creature. Also, having access to Rough//Tumble makes Elves and D&T great matchups.

Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

Not having 2x Cindervines in your 75 is almost certainly just wrong. Destructive Revelry left legacy's card pool the moment Cindervines was printed, just like Disfigure did once Push came out. Choose the card that is can be played proactively, win a game, and can actually kill a Counterbalance (assuming it comes down before). Cindervines also importantly lets you tap down into an incoming Choke/B2B.

Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

Originally Posted by Fox

Not having 2x Cindervines in your 75 is almost certainly just wrong. Destructive Revelry left legacy's card pool the moment Cindervines was printed, just like Disfigure did once Push came out. Choose the card that is can be played proactively, win a game, and can actually kill a Counterbalance (assuming it comes down before). Cindervines also importantly lets you tap down into an incoming Choke/B2B.

I don't agree with this 100%. One is an instant the other enchantment. I'm not sure who exposes their enchantments to get killed or removed just to wait for the card that needs to be removed