Monday, February 08, 2010

Understanding the Psychology of Black Women

It would be a fascinating thing to profile black women’s thinking around in particular, the issue of being black and what this entails, what areas and opportunities are thus open to them and which ones are restricted.

The question is, where are black women ‘mentally’ now (at least the masses of them), and even better still, what is black women’s psychology currently in terms of what continues to cause them barriers and hinders their self actualisation in such a way that they complain? What mental set up of black women is causing them grief?

A Couple of most common thinking to be found among black women

Having false ideas holding them hostage -or believing false doctrines particularly about what black men are up to and what is up between the genders.

Permission seekers- Black women tend to be permission-seekers/prone, which is a problem. They want permission to change their mind, their approach and their response and their tact to reflect their current reality. Black women are the only ones doing the heavy lifting for the race and making the sacrifices, so how can they be set free? It’s the classic willing horse situation.

Believing that blacks and whites are still in the ‘us’ versus ‘them’ state of play- I see this anytime black women come together to deliberate or even for a girly chat. Someone will pull up a chair and say ‘So what’s going on in ‘us versus them’ land. In these kinds of meetings, black women incline their ears for the latest on the ‘us’ versus ‘them’ state of play, and ask, ‘What’s going on, and how we can do/launch the next stage to move ‘us’ ahead in this game or us versus them’.

Can I say the only ‘Us’ versus ‘them’ situation is black women barricading themselves off from the rest of society all to their deep detriment.

Indeed, black women have to be tapped gently to notice what is around them and to note the human interactions around and how black men refuse to be segregated, as to make their own ‘stand apart’ from the rest of society, non viable and self damaging indeed the root of a lot of their heartache.

Operating from a point of power deficiency - Everything about black women’s reactions speak to their feelings of being power deficient i.e. ‘lets wait’, ‘lets not give up on black men’, lets have faith, lets not rouse them to displeasure and anger, lets be a bit more understanding, lets bear more burden/take on more responsibility to see this thing works out between us.

Ascribing profundity to nonsense coming from black men - Black women feel they cannot ignore black men even when they are talking rubbish, black women feel obliged to listen to them, hear them out and find some profound sense even in foolish utterings. ‘Lets listen’ they say, ‘The brother is saying something deep and meaningful.’ ‘Ssshs, they might be saying something important.’ Black women tell themselves these and nod along as if an oracle of god is speaking!

Black women are too worried about what other blacks think of them- Other black peoples acceptance is central to their personal equanimity.

The insistence that life be fair to them or they boycott making any efforts at living well- Black women are often found opting out of making an effort as if saying, “This is an unfair situation and I am not dealing.” Life is however not fair, and must still be lived. Many black women do not think they can play to win and this is why they insist on a ’fair’ situation before they move forward.

Looking for the consensus for everything- Black women are always asking, ‘What is the party line so we can toe it.’ What is the black perspective on this one‘. By being so clingy to what black community says or the community line they hope to show everyone how loyal and devoted they are and get their brownie points and head pats. Rather than use their intelligence to work out what is happening and what to do next, an ability which has been given every being, they instead decide to be told what to do and given their instructions.

Insisting on the approach of shaming black men into doing right by them- Black women continue their efforts to try to shame black men into loving and preferring them. It isn’t working!

Black women feel that every situation however unrelated is calling for them to stand up for blackness- They have this unending tape playing in their heads, ‘Now! Do it! This one calls for you defend blackness’. ‘This calls for you to perform you love for your race in full view, ‘this is a good opportunity to display your how besotted you are with black‘, ‘this is a time to rush to defend the brothers’.

Always looking out for that ‘plan’ for black people- Many black women are found constantly gathering together, looking for ‘the’ plan to rescue/emancipate the whole of our people.

Black women working to be approved, working for the affection of others- Black women display a strong need to be approved of and ‘confirmed’ by their community in everything they do. This leads them into all kinds of roles of protector, healer, defender, mule in the black “community as they strive to get that approval.

An external locus of control (other people’s approval etc) means that black women are easy puppets in the hands of others who turn them whichever way they will and to their own ends.

In addition, it is beginning to look like black women feel unworthy of love and support and feel they must constantly work to show they are good and approvable, so they work extremely hard on behalf of others. This is the real self esteem issue for black women. The ‘dead to self’ syndrome being displayed by many black women in their bid to be esteemed black women means they are always asking, ‘What more can we do to please or bring back black men’s love, black unity and what ever other duty they are required to’.

Black relationships for community building-Black women believe in the theoretical ideal of their relationships for ‘building the black community’ where relationships can often not have merit within themselves but, in what they can be used to achieve for black folks situation. This links strongly into black women thinking they are ‘resources’ for the race.

Organising their lives around the coming revival- You won’t believe the number of black women who are organising and streamlining their lives around the peripheral notion of a coming/up swell and revival of black people. Somehow in the back of their minds it is organising their lives and keeping them in place. They are then waiting for this occurrence and not moving off as they could. It keeps them tethered to the lamppost, circling a certain spot or locus keeping within ear shot and not moving to far off ‘In case it happens when I have gone for a short walk’. Indeed they are under the feeling that something is about to happen/will happen with black people soon, and we need to be ready and jump on it when it starts.

Clean up women-The song, ‘Clean up woman’ must be the sound track to their lives. They are always busy tidying up behind others, cleaning the mess others have made.

Giving black men undeserved points in a bid to cause a transformation or to glorify their race-Black women are constantly trying to invest the black men with the 'elevation' he hasn’t earned, yet men love women who hold them accountable and do not make excuses for them. This does not mean they won’t take advantage of those who offer the excuses, but they will loose respect.

All you excuse makers for black men are severely despised by them.

Also it is clear and easy to predict black women in this regards and that never fall too far off from their programming, to hold black men aloft!

Adoration of black men- When black women come together, they actively engage in black male adoration, endorsing and eulogising black males and making sometimes poetic pronouncements to convey their love and how enraptured they are by the magnificience of black manhood which is superior to all others lol!

Many black women feel that this is expected of them (just like people think it is expected of them to say hello to their colleagues in the morning) and so they engage in this time worn tradition of black male praise and adoration whenever black meetings are convened.

What these women fail to realise is that they are conveying to black men that they are their suckers and black men have the freedom to do as he pleases and that they will always be there and there are no deal breakers in terms of black men’s treatment of them.

These same women then turn round and wonder why black men are behaving cocky. It might have something to do with the fact that you have said you will never leave regardless of what he does- I am just saying.

Many if not all cultures of the worlds, warn women against excessive adoration of men. Many understand that men need to be focussed and motivated by having their praise and elevation attached to their ‘performance’ and not given regardless of merit. But within the western black community such commonsense cautionary way of preventing the icarius syndrome among black men has been eroded with black women going all out to adore black men in a misguided bid to shore his esteem up in what they deem a ego sapping western situation for black males.

Black male ego protecting- Its very clear that black women are protecting black males egos that’s why they are willing to let black men have one up on them in anything, while still grovelling and pleading for his affection. The ego bolstering game that black women are playing, means they also let black men march all over them all in their misguided notion that this is how black women should serve black male upliftment. But fancy that, they are not protecting and defending anything worth protecting but something that it would do well to even deemphasise.

Black women tend to be passive in the face of major decisions and life and happiness threats e.g. Many are content to sit in church and wait for an answer, wait for ‘God’ as they say, afraid to take up the reigns of their own life. A lot of this has to do with the false sense of security woven around black women to keep them in a non-reacting state within the black community.

The rational self-maximising social agents precept is not in Black women thanks to community indoctrination- Black women often show that they do not act as rational self-maximising social agents who will for instance take into consideration non availability of black men in deciding their dating policy. They put cultural concerns way out in front of practical realities. Unless black women move to this way of thinking it will get progressively hard for them to meet their needs.

Maintain beliefs in the face of contrary evidence - persistent belief or view in spite of contrary evidence (PERVICE). Black women seem to be bound in some kind of spell to persist in an idea that they and black men are in unity of purpose over something, when there is overwhelming evidence that they are not.

I am not saying you wont get one black men here or there but the general and bulk are not into all that. HJNIT

The spell is broken.

There is indeed a whole culture of denial and playing mind games on themselves to stay steadfast in what they have been told are sacred beliefs of blackness and the way we have to be as black women, to stick to the illusions we are so desperate to cling to that it is working or will work out with black men.

The culture of telling ourselves lies and preferring to listen to what we know deep down to be lies and fables as opposed to cold hard truth (tell me lies tell me sweet little lies), is very strong among black women. And the culture of sticking all the more strongly to our illusions and fantasies the more the truth becomes apartment and undeniable is also another strong pattern among black women. Actively fooling ourselves and being fooled is deemed as how good black women behave.

Fear of being deemed as not doing enough-Black women have this fear of not being devout enough to their race. You can scare black women into doing anything by suggesting they haven’t done enough or they have some black self hate on display. It’s funny because the folk who display the most self hatred in choices etc are the least worried about being devoted to their race

Trying to create the ideal black family even without the participation of black men- Many black women have signed up to the campaign to restore and continue the endangered black family without the crucial and necessary part of black men’s involvement.

Clueless black woman-Folks talk about dizzy blondes, I talk about dizzy black women who don’t seem to or are unable to process what’s going on around them and label the situation correctly. Black women have a major hard time even recognizing what’s up and seem to be the last to identify what an issue or trend is especially in terms of its impact on them.

Indeed, there is something particularly 'off' with the mental acuity of the black women collective. There is this whole 'head in the cloud', not knowing how to add one and one together, inability to see things for what they are, even glaring things that announce themselves with fanfare. As if being a bit slow keeps away grim reality. Now many black women lack social reality awareness either as an inability to add up the clear and undeniable evidence, or the unwillingness to do same because it will lead them to a conclusion and they would rather hang on to a more emotionally pleasing one.

‘The white society is hiding the real deal’. ‘They are presenting us with fudged numbers,’ black women say, yet they go out into the society everyday and confront the confirming evidence. Many black women can and have become ‘skilled’ in the art of ‘faith in black community’ which is detached from all its practical moorings and is now a thing of belief. They seem to be in the belief that, ‘we will win a prize and be approved of, if we can maintain trust in black men when there is little reason to’.

Some black women do think a particular regime still persists within the black group, the regime of brotherliness, care for black uplift and black progress, black women and black men working together etc. We have long since left that reign but the illusion persists because many black women do not want to wake to the reality and they take their messages from those who are invested in sustaining the idea a little longer

There has been an era change which black women have refused to observe or have been keenly guarded from observing

Own goal scorers-Black women are well know for adopting strategies and approaches and basically acting in a way that shoots them in their own foot. I have never seen a group of women get further entrenched in ideas and notions that are not working and clearly put them in disadvantage like, ‘Rejecting the advances of non-black men, even in the face of black men increasing disinterest in settling down and also settling down with black women. What is that if it isn’t shooting ones self in the foot!

Black women are constantly rushing to make black men feel good about themselves- They are always rushing to defend them even when they are doing things that work against the community and has lead us down the path of peril. Black women are in the frontline, defending the men who refuse to have anything to do with the average black woman. As soon as a black man is in trouble etc even when this man has always given all his earthly goods to women of other races, black women are jumping over themselves to rush to his defense.

Black women have Knee jerk resistant reaction to deflect any requirement of accountability from black men- Its akin to how a mother rushes to protect her young. They have a knee jerk reaction against the plain truth being told –This is in the mistaken belief that they are maintaining peace and keeping black people in unity, when all they are doing is papering over deep fissures that are ensuring that the situation continues to decay.

This fear of, 'If the truth gets out things will not hold together or if we have honest discussions someone’s ego will be bruised and they wont wanna continue the (none existent) black union.' is behind this fear to truth telling about black men why (this behavior need to be modified).

Black women have a habit of creating myths and false barriers which rule, ruin and hinder a smooth path- For instance the untested idea that I wont have anything in common with wm. How do they figure this out beyond just looking at skin color! These same women feel that they would have everything in common with a man from Burundi, who lives in his home country just because of skin. I find this the strangest logic of all and a sign of the shallow thinking many black women are happy to have on these issues.

Believing on the face if it arguments (all that glitters)- this is related to the above and indeed because of a deemphasize on critical thinking as opposed to receiving the simple doctrine of symbolism- e.g. black and white are different cultures

Believing that if we have dialogue or explain a few things to black men they will get straight – Thus playing into the hands of those who have no intention of having any sort of productive dialogue but just keeping black women in a spot/not moving off. Remember it has been realized that in the face of the deteriorating situation for black women in the community a whole lot of effort is put into keeping black women either not seeing the truth by a whole range of ploys and in holding with the scales firmly on their eyes.

Black women are constantly performing what they think is expected of them - Indeed a constant need to perform the role of good devout black women, who cares so much and is deeply in love with her community, is something that black women constantly display especially when there are third parties around.

In meetings, even among fellow black women where they can afford to be more subversive and focused on their own interest, black women continue to feel a desperate need to show how ‘sold out’ they are to their race. This constantly performing their ‘good woman’ role gets in the way of being real about their situation, and in touch with their feelings and needs . Indeed in a meeting group, you can often note black women too busy performing for each other to really delve down into the truth. Like peacocks.

Black women do not let yourselves be fooled into being on your own when you want to be in a relationship! There are many options out there. Read the IR E-book

61 comments:

Anonymous
said...

Halima, what you describe sounds just like Stockholm syndrome, which happens to people who have been held in captivity for such a long period of time, they start falling in love with their captors. It doesn't matter how brutal their captors are. Perhaps what's going on with most anti-ir bw is mass Stockholm syndrome.

"Believing on the face if it arguments (all that glitters)- this is related to the above and indeed because of a deemphasize on critical thinking as opposed to receiving the simple doctrine of symbolism- e.g. black and white are different cultures"

"Believing that if we have dialogue or explain a few things to black men they will get straight – Thus playing into the hands of those who have no intention of having any sort of productive dialogue but just keeping black women in a spot/not moving off."

CNN is constantly reinforcing these ridiculous ideas with their Black In America specials. The mainstream media has a lot to answer for as well as they contribute to the belief that all black people are a monolith and that individuality doesn't exist.

I remember a Dr. Phil episode about dating and an attractive, dark skinned bw named Lexi said she only dates wm because she has nothing in common with bm. Dr. Phil ridiculed her on national television by repeatedly pointing out that it was obvious that her skin color was what she had in common with bm. The sheep-like audience just laughed at her along with Dr. Phil, even though Lexi had made it clear that the bm she dated did not want to take her to the cultural/intellectual things she enjoyed, such as museums. Dr. Phil knows better than to believe that mere skin color is the key to relationship success. He has access to divorce statistics and he's supposed to be an expert on marriage, yet he promotes such blatant ignorance.

I think this is one part of why/how the BC is losing/lost all the gains/capital won from the 60's. I was watching some Black history month documentaries and all of them had this tone of powerlessness; people were saying the same things that were said in footage from 30+ years ago. I think this attitude/belief system resulted in squandering precious opportunities and capital. I hope/pray that the bulk of BW do not follow suit.

"Ascribing profundity to nonsense coming from black men...Giving black men undeserved points in a bid to cause a transformation or to glorify their race...Adoration of black men...Black male ego protecting"

"I remember a Dr. Phil episode about dating and an attractive, dark skinned bw named Lexi said she only dates wm because she has nothing in common with bm. Dr. Phil ridiculed her on national television by repeatedly pointing out that it was obvious that her skin color was what she had in common with bm. The sheep-like audience just laughed at her along with Dr. Phil, even though Lexi had made it clear that the bm she dated did not want to take her to the cultural/intellectual things she enjoyed, such as museums. Dr. Phil knows better than to believe that mere skin color is the key to relationship success. He has access to divorce statistics and he's supposed to be an expert on marriage, yet he promotes such blatant ignorance."

Do you think he acted dumb and ridiculed her on purpose?If so, why?I'm really starting to think there is some damn agenda out there to destroy BW lolIf i didn't know better...

All of your good arguments are "push you out the door" arguments. For most women to consider making such a massive change, I think they are going to need explicitly welcoming places to land, and not much of that is evident yet. I think that is my natural future role in all this, to create welcoming places, or welcoming rhetoric.

S, I can't say whether or not Dr. Phil has an agenda. I can only speculate that he may have bought into the bc propaganda that bw and bm make the most compatible mates because of "their culture" or because of experience with racism or some other assumption without questioning it. Or maybe it's pressure from his show's sponsors with their own agenda to make bw who prefer to date/marry out look odd for some reason, or myths about the bc that could have been fed to him by black consultants or producers. Who knows what goes on behind the scenes, but too way too many in the media go out of their way to avoid encouraging bw/wm ir.

Hi Halima this is truth p.Thanks Halima,You just gave us alot to think about and consider.Thank you for your effort at educating and empowering black women such as myself you are greatly appreciated.

I'm particularly happy that you said that black women have a FEAR of telling the truth in regards to black men and their many failures to their children,women, and communities, because they don't want to anger black men.You'd be surprised how many black women and black men think that black women need black men.This is NOT true.BW have been surviving for years without the help and protection of bm.

I see this play out online BW avoid telling the TRUTH ,which may sound negative yet still be the truth, if they think telling the truth will stop black men from being there.The problem is many of these black men are ALREADY M.I.A.I reject the notion that if we anger black men by telling the truth that it will somehow lessen the chance of black men coming back.They just aint coming back no matter how nice you play,no matter how much these silly bw worship them.In fact most black men speak as if it is impossible for black women to ever please a black man no matter how hard she works and works and works and works and works and works and works at it.These men are GONE They will NOT come back even to save their OWN CHILDREN.They won't do it.It's time we move on.

In order to move on we need to understand where some bw have made mistakes.We don't want to allow a new set of users, abusers, and deadbeat dads, into our lives just cause they are white or non black.This is about having a better life.I am not going to ex black men out of the equation under the guise that they are a mess and then get a white man or non black man to treat me just as bad as a black one.

Bottomline is black women ARE practicing protectionism of all things black male all the while being forsaken.If you went to the so called good black male websites they'd flat out tell you THEMSELVES that they DONT protect black women because they don't think MOST of us,as in anybody not their momma. only except most of them are NOT protecting and providing for her either, are worth protecting.Meanwhile, black women are protecting black men whether they are good or bad.Whether it is in their best personal interests doesn't even matter they just serve black men.This MUST stop.

I love your witty and often truthful posts, but I have no idea where you are going with this.

I don't know where to began, even though I agree with certain points, this sweeping generalization of the 'black women' is absurd. Imagine if someone wrote, 'Understanding the Psychology of White Women,' and how funny that would sound. For one, race is socially made up hierarchy in the West to demean and control certain segments of society from the slave era to this day (whether its economic or political structure). Not to mention black women come from all various ethnic and heritage and income/educational level who are not all monolithic 'black power' mentality inherited from the 60s.

Sometimes I get the sense you psychoanalyze the human behavior and societal norms to the detriment of those same 'black women' you are attempting to inform and educate. Its almost like social anthropology, which is often subjective and reinforces the same things many of us fight against: the generalization and stereotype of the black women. As well as failing to look @ the bigger picture in examining black women of a given generation.

It will greatly help if you could be more specific in such discussion, it might give the reader a broader understanding of what is it you are attempting to seek or examine. Especially, since you can never look @ a given community in separate context from the so-called mainstream society they happen to be apart of as a visible minority. We black women are not an island to ourselves, despite the fact many, our parents in particular try so hard to convince us.

anon qoute:"I remember a Dr. Phil episode about dating and an attractive, dark skinned bw named Lexi said she only dates wm because she has nothing in common with bm. Dr. Phil ridiculed her on national television by repeatedly pointing out that it was obvious that her skin color was what she had in common with bm. The sheep-like audience just laughed at her along with Dr. Phil, even though Lexi had made it clear that the bm she dated did not want to take her to the cultural/intellectual things she enjoyed, such as museums."

1st of all, Dr. Phill is an idiot with little 'expertise' or knowledge. Its like considering House or ER to be an example of real medicine. He and his audience who are predominately white and suburban house wives could neither relate nor comprehend the reasons black women date outside of their race.

having said that, its equally absurd to generalize and assume most black men do not attend museums and gallery events. Granted many working class and even middle class families can barely afford such luxury, but there are many black men of various background who attend high arts and intellectually stimulating events.

I love your witty and often truthful posts, but I have no idea where you are going with this.

Thank you for your compliment and you are under no obligation to know where i am going with this or anything.

I don't know where to began, even though I agree with certain points, this sweeping generalization of the 'black women' is absurd. Imagine if someone wrote, 'Understanding the Psychology of White Women,' and how funny that would sound.

Actually there is nothing wrong/funny with a topic exploring 'The psychology of white women' especially if it explores a number of strands and inserts the necessary limits of the deliberation.

why do you think it is funny and more to the point, why do you think that everyone shares your sense or propriety?

I live in a country where the government prepares a document, 'British attitudes', every other year.

Is this a claim that all british people think in a particular way?

of course not, but if a significant portion of people in a given locality/country have a particular perception/views on specific topics, what is the problem with having a look at this.

We need to get over this, 'we cant make any conclussions about anything' frame of mind. who says that a factor has to 100% in effect before we comment on it and explore it!

For one, race is socially made up hierarchy in the West to demean and control certain segments of society from the slave era to this day (whether its economic or political structure). Not to mention black women come from all various ethnic and heritage and income/educational level who are not all monolithic 'black power' mentality inherited from the 60s.

Sure but a significant number of bw cling to an ideological framework that results in the kind of limited life that is the lot of many bw and we should be able to look at that

Sometimes I get the sense you psychoanalyze the human behavior and societal norms to the detriment of those same 'black women' you are attempting to inform and educate. Its almost like social anthropology, which is often subjective and reinforces the same things many of us fight against: the generalization and stereotype of the black women.

My aim is to jog bw out of self defeating attitudes and behaviours and to cause the necessary introspection so they can understand and link their lack and limitations to their attitudes.

if i can get one bw to look at this post and say, 'well maybe in this area...' or even to say, 'nothing here is anything I would do' then that is a result.

As well as failing to look @ the bigger picture in examining black women of a given generation.

It will greatly help if you could be more specific in such discussion, it might give the reader a broader understanding of what is it you are attempting to seek or examine. Especially, since you can never look @ a given community in separate context from the so-called mainstream society they happen to be apart of as a visible minority.

Respectfully, you cannot tell me my brief. i know what i want to achieve and how, its not for you to decide a mission for me or to assume that I am on a mission that you have concieved.

There are so many books and writers out there working to the brief that you speak of ie analysising against mainstream or should i say blaming all on mainstream. Like I said I am not about that, I am about the fact that black women can get a whole host out of life by getting out of self defeating beliefs.

I am happy to look at this work in terms of what individual bw can do to advance themselves and achieve their real desires, not some abstract or broad based discourse on how black elevation can be achieved!

1st of all, Dr. Phill is an idiot with little 'expertise' or knowledge. Its like considering House or ER to be an example of real medicine. He and his audience who are predominately white and suburban house wives could neither relate nor comprehend the reasons black women date outside of their race.

having said that, its equally absurd to generalize and assume most black men do not attend museums and gallery events.

Granted many working class and even middle class families can barely afford such luxury, but there are many black men of various background who attend high arts and intellectually stimulating events.

I did not watch this program but what i glean from what the commenters are saying here, is that this bw was making reference to the black men who she had been involved with/had something to do with. In that case then, she is right to say that they did not enjoy the same pursuits as herself as this was her experince.

This is not a commentary on the whole of black men.

The way folks are going, very soon bw will be unable to say anything about anything!

"S, I can't say whether or not Dr. Phil has an agenda. I can only speculate that he may have bought into the bc propaganda that bw and bm make the most compatible mates because of "their culture" or because of experience with racism or some other assumption without questioning it."

I saw clips from a dating/reality show that reminded me of this. They had about 9 WW and one BW - 15WM, 4 men from other groups, and 1BM. The men were competing for the women and the 1BW only went to the 1BM. I remember thinking why him? Out of all those men she didn't even mingle with them- how does she know that this guy is even nice, compatible etc?? She just attached herself to him w/o giving the other men a chance.

@Aaby re:For most women to consider making such a massive change, I think they are going to need explicitly welcoming places to land,

Part 1

Thanks for emailing me the link to your thread. I came over to Dawn's site and saw your thread, but the site overstimulates me since I suffer from motion sickness. So, I'll respond here.

I think that everyone is on point in their comments over there. I agree with the commenters, but IMO, one of the changes that many AA women need to make in order to more successfully give more wm and other non-AA men the green light and to be more receptive to a respectful wm's/nonbm's interest is that many AA women must change their VALUES surrounding the type of men who they're attracted to.

First, let me say, I'm an AA woman (for those who don't know) who was raised around AAs. Most of my girlfriends and sisterfriends past and present have always been AA women,and of course, I have AA female relatives. So, I KNOW the AA woman's mindset totally and completely.

HOWEVER, romantically, my relationships have been almost totally with non-AA men and with men from a variety of groups and races (aside from Asians). So here is a critical nuance that is often overlooked whenever AA women even think about doing the mating dance with a non-AA men.

It's this: Many AA women have been PROGRAMMED or WIRED to be attracted to a bm's voice, body mass, his skin shade, his smell, his taste, his swagger or "cool"ness, the way typical bm dress, his "conversation (or his talking sh#t)," his sense of humor, the way he moves, the way he wears his hair, his sense of general style, his eyes, his smile, the color of his teeth against his lips, the shape of his body on down to the shape of a bm's buttocks, (LOL!)etc.

Many AA women love the loudness and deepness of AA man's voice (some), his fake-aggressive or laidback "Mr. Cool and Collected" manner, etc. all of which they interpret as "MAN"ly confidence. SMH

And there are LOTS of very well educated, savvy and otherwise extremely intelligent AA women (and others) who ***believe*** that a man with a wider chest is more of a man than a man with a narrower chest. Or they BELIEVE that a taller man is more of a man than a shorter one--when in actuality, the men who rule and those who have always ruled the world are NOT 6 feet tall men because most men are average height, which is inches shorter. That's what average means--the norm.

What has always puzzled me too since I started blogging about BWIR is that some AA women would refuse to date a wm that lots of ww would date, love, and marry. I'm not talking about Brad Pitt and George Clooney here. The vast majority of ww are NOT dating or married to Brad and George types. LOL!

Maybe this is a way for BW to insure that they don't get to date wm. They sabotage themselves by saying that they have to have a Brad Pitt or a George Clooney????

Let me point out here that I have 8 white sister in laws and several grown white or biracial nieces. All of them are married to wm (mostly from a certain ethnic group). And roughly 75% of them are married to wm who are around their height or even a bit shorter and have medium builds. These men are all good providers and protectors. They are also loving, lovable, GOOD family men.

All of my life, I've heard AA women going ga-ga over these kinds of superficial and supposedly "MAN"ly attributes of the AA man. LOL! I've often sat quietly listening to them and asked myself, "Yes, but how is ANY of that going to provide for and protect you and your children?" When I've asked any of them that question, they cannot respond. That's indoctrination. It's not logical; it's just there, running nonstop

We can laugh a this, but these are often critical nuances to lots (didn't say all) of AA women. Most of the women don't even know that some of these nuances are operating, but these are some of the nuances involved in why they're often not attracted or not as strongly attracted to non-AA men or are hesitant to give wm and other non-bm the green light. The white guy can be perfectly nice, gentlemanly, clean cut, well educated, good sense of humor,etc. and some bw will say, "I'm just not attracted to him." Some of these AA women don't like African men for the same reason--because he doesn't act like a "brotha." LOL! A lot y'all AA women KNOW that what I'm saying is true! Even Michelle Obama almost blew off Barack for some of these reasons.

BW: Brad (wm) is not DeShawn (bm). Brad is not going to look, sound, smell, taste, or have the same sense of humor because Brad comes from a different background and bloodline. If Brad is a Quality man, you cannot and must not compare Brad to DeShawn, and if DeShawn is a Quality man, you shouldn't compare him to Brad.

My ex-husband (Nigerian) and present husband (Swiss-German) are both Quality, loving and loveable men, but they're very different in ALL of the superficial ways.

So, I'll just say that a MASSIVE re-education program is needed for SOME AA women in this regard, due to certain counterproductive VALUES like that.

Also, let me point out that there are lots of AA women who ALREADY have the correct values and don't evaluate a man based on superficial attributes. I am one of those women.

Yes, white men are also going to have to change to be more successful with SOME AA women, but which group has or should have the most INCENTIVE to change, right now?

Aaby, you have my permission to post this on Dawn's site, if it's okay with her.

having said that, its equally absurd to generalize and assume most black men do not attend museums and gallery events. Granted many working class and even middle class families can barely afford such luxury, but there are many black men of various background who attend high arts and intellectually stimulating events.

It is absurd for you to not be honest and admit that MOST of the small percentage of black men who do attend museums and gallery events are not involved with BW or in some cases women period for that matter.

So why would that tidbit of information you shared be of interest to BW on a board titled Black Women's Interracial Relationship Circle?

You are engaging in black male protectionism and BW need to STOP this counterproductive behavior ASAP.

When BW are being savaged on most black boards (including many of the ones run by so called "good" bm) NO ONE - and especially not BM - comes to the rescue to defend our good name.

This lack of concern that BM daily display towards anything have to do with BW needs to be returned in spades.

Because that's reciprocity and justice.

The numbers speak for themselves. MOST BM - at least in the West - because of irreversible damage and self-hate - are simply NOT interested in BW for marriage purposes. Hence the high single rate and OOW child rate amongst BW in the western world who limit themselves to BM as opposed to expanding their options and choosing ONLY marriage minded quality men from the global village irrespective of color/race.

BW need to accept this statistical fact and act accordingly.

You speak of "many" black men of various backgrounds who attend high arts and intellectually stimulating events. Where is the evidence of this?

There are more BM in prison then have graduated from college. Which does not reflect positively on them as a group when it comes to intellect.

Again, BW do not need to concern themselves with how many black men are doing (or not doing) X Y and Z but instead on what quality marriage minded non colorist men who INCLUDE - as opposed to exclude - BW (regardless of skin-tone, hair-texture and length, and features) are doing.

Most BW are in the rut they're in because their lives revolve around a population that has proven time and time again (and will continue to prove) that their lives do not revolve around them .

Ah,I see now. I now understand why 99% of blacks have always hated me so much. I'm nothing like this. This is so sad. I don't even know what else to say. I agree with the 1st anon post, it sounds like Stockholm Syndrome. It's just way beyond sick.

Prof. RUSSELL-BROWN: Well, there are many benefits to black protectionism. It represents this idea of group solidarity. It represents this awareness of the history of race and racism in this country. I mean, it's really a rallying cry that says, we are not how you portray us. That we are not all criminals, we are not all guilty.

But I think there are some very acute costs to black protectionism. One of the concerns is that, does it apply to black women? Are black women able to get the same kind of protectionism that black men are able to receive from the community? And the answer appears to be no.

---------------------------------------

Black women need to stop allowing themselves to be played like this. It's embarrassingly foolish behavior. NO quality man is interested in marrying and producing children with women regardless of "race" who think and behave in such non productive, self sabotaging, and unsavvy was.

Men from a variety of different backgrounds WILL sex and later dump such women. But that's about it.

Men (and non BW) are opportunist and self focused first and foremost. They look out for NUMBER ONE. BW can take a page from their book.

BW need to DO THEM and let the chips fall where they may concerning the "community" and "the race".

Because this "I've got to save what's left of the community" nonsense is still undoubtedly playing in most BW's heads.

Huda, at the end of the day, what you or I think of Dr. Phil is totally, totally, irrelevant. The fact of the matter is millions of viewers of all colors tune into his show every day and believe he is an expert. Most of them happen to be white. So what? Do you actually believe bw only tune into television programs that are aimed at black audiences? Do bw jump up and change the channel if a show comes on tv that doesn't have a black host and/or audience? Dr. Phil has a great deal of influence over millions of people just like anyone else on tv with a large following, and bw DO watch his show. The influence of a popular tv personality cannot just be dismissed out of hand no matter what credentials he or she may or may not have.

By the way, his guest Lexi (from Los Angeles who was brought to the show by her bw friend "concerned" about her excluding bm from her dating pool) actually said that the bm she dated in the past did not want to take her to the types of places she likes to visit. She noticed a pattern and found that wm did take her to the places she liked. Problem solved. How long would you have her wait to find the bm who enjoys taking her to museums? Also, blue collar income is such a lame excuse. Many museums, art exhibitions, recitals and concerts in major cities are FREE and announced in free newspapers every single week.

So individual BW might as well rescue THEMSELVES. And it's easy enough to do.

The writing IS on the wall and this catastrophic phenomena that BW are needlessly experiencing is being documented now.

Below is a MUST read article and I highly recommend BW (and those who care about BW) to circulate it far and wide.

Marriage, Family on the Decline for Highly Educated Black Women

http://opa.yale.edu/news/article.aspx?id=6815&s=t

The study, which is the first to review longitudinal trends in marriage and family formation among highly educated black women, found that black women born after 1950 were twice as likely as white women never to have married by age 45 and twice as likely to be divorced, widowed or separated.

And remember ladies, the below statement is a BOLD FACED LIE. The ONLY black women who have increasingly fewer options these days are those who restrict themselves to black males.

Remember that.

When BW open themselves to the GLOBAL village they have the SAME high chances of securing a quality mate and involved father for her children that every other woman has.

This is the truth.

“Highly educated black women have increasingly fewer options when it comes to potential mates,” Brueckner said. “They are less likely than black men to marry outside their race, and, compared to whites and black men, they are least likely to marry a college-educated spouse.”

anon: "It is absurd for you to not be honest and admit that MOST of the small percentage of black men who do attend museums and gallery events are not involved with BW or in some cases women period for that matter.So why would that tidbit of information you shared be of interest to BW on a board titled Black Women's Interracial Relationship Circle?"

Huda: I don't know what city you live in, but most middle and upper middle class black men from NY to Chicago do bring black women into so-called 'high society events'. Black culture is so diverse and rich with its many faults and cultural/class nuance that any given sweeping generalization is utterly stupid.

Its equally misguided for black women to assume some black loyalty towards black men, as it is to buy into the corporate media culture of the shallow ghettoized black man (and no Obama winning the presidency hasn't changed much of racist and self defeating perception we hold about each other).

Huda: lool, well a black man is my father, brother, friend, colleague, president, etc. I might not have the negative perception of a lowly failure that is a black man in your mind. Neither would I glorify the whole black male population. This kind of jingoistic argument leads to self hate. The same way that a white woman argument in protection of the white man as her savior or Satan would be equally pathetic.

I think you need to examine your own personal life experience and understand not everyone comes from your personally held believe. The same way that I do in not considering 'all black men' are honorable, committed family men. If you go out of your own limited environment, you realize monogamy, loyalty and healthy committed relationships goes beyond ones skin color, its something that all communities, even those predominately white are dealing with. The only difference is that as a minority, whatever ails society is overblown and becomes a major concern for us.

2nd anon: "Huda, at the end of the day, what you or I think of Dr. Phil is totally, totally, irrelevant. The fact of the matter is millions of viewers of all colors tune into his show every day and believe he is an expert. Most of them happen to be white. So what? Do you actually believe bw only tune into television programs that are aimed at black audiences? Do bw jump up and change the channel if a show comes on tv that doesn't have a black host and/or audience? Dr. Phil has a great deal of influence over millions of people just like anyone else on tv with a large following, and bw DO watch his show. The influence of a popular tv personality cannot just be dismissed out of hand no matter what credentials he or she may or may not have."

Of course many consider Dr. Phill an 'expert', the same way that millions follow and perhaps are influence by such a cheap reality shows like the 'Jersey Shore' or 'VH1 Flavor Flav,' which feeds into the lowliest perception about ethnic groups, whether black women or Italians. I think we know Corporate media isn't there to inform and transform negatively held believes in our society. For one, Fox news would not be considered popular or worthy of viewing unless one is into hateful propaganda that only harms society, let along white working class who are constantly duped to vote against their own interest.

Having said that, Dr. Phil might be influential among certain segments of our society, the same way that Oprah is, if not in the same extend. However, as someone who rarely watches his show, I would like to see the demographic break down of his audience, I doubt black women get their relationship expert from his show.

qoute 2: "By the way, his guest Lexi (from Los Angeles who was brought to the show by her bw friend "concerned" about her excluding bm from her dating pool) actually said that the bm she dated in the past did not want to take her to the types of places she likes to visit."

you know its really sad that some within our own community buy into the shitty argument that only white people go 2 museum, gallery, plays, etc. I remember taking my friends to a night of art in my home town in Toronto and the black guy with us being surprised we were into it. Sometimes we take upon convoluted media or cultural perception about what black people like or go to. I mean 2/3 of the arts and music in North America have been either created or shaped by black artists of various background. I believe lack of knowing ones history and accepting such ignorance normalized among my own generation contribute to such negative stereotypes.

Halima: "Actually there is nothing wrong/funny with a topic exploring 'The psychology of white women' especially if it explores a number of strands and inserts the necessary limits of the deliberation.why do you think it is funny and more to the point, why do you think that everyone shares your sense or propriety?"

Huda: Its funny to me because it would be complex if not vulnerable to extreme generalization. Yes, one might find certain trends and norms that 'white women or black women' have in a given country, ie the USA or UK. However, it would be strange to assume one can make any ended conclusions about such a large pool of audience.

Halima: "I live in a country where the government prepares a document, 'British attitudes', every other year."

Huda: Its similar to the endless debate people have in Canada about what's a Canadian culture and how much power Americans culture have over us. I think examining a whole nation is different than a whole 'racial group'. You might ask what's the difference?

Halima: "Is this a claim that all british people think in a particular way? of course not, but if a significant portion of people in a given locality/country have a particular perception/views on specific topics, what is the problem with having a look at this."

Huda: The difference for me is that in a given society, there are generalized norms and cultural nuance that is the standard for all. For example a British Muslim would have certain behavior attitudes with non-Muslims Brits. In fact, even among those who choice to wear the head scarf and are born or raised in the UK, US, Canada, etc would have more in common with their own fellow citizens in the West than Muslims from Africa or the Middle East. Mainstream society has a more unifying perception than race.

In other words, you could be considered a black woman, but you don't necessarily have a common cultural norms with all black woman in your country. You could be of African, Caribbean, Muslim, Arab, Jewish, Christian background, creating a complex analysis.

Halima: We need to get over this, 'we cant make any conclussions about anything' frame of mind. who says that a factor has to 100% in effect before we comment on it and explore it!"

Huda: Of course no statistics or analysis is 100% correct or perfect. We are examining social norms and human behaviors.

Halima: "Sure but a significant number of bw cling to an ideological framework that results in the kind of limited life that is the lot of many bw and we should be able to look at that"

Huda: Yes, but isn't that the norm for any given community? Without certain held believes and ideology, the concept of a community and human cohesiveness is lost?

obviously, bw should get out of the main framework of being loyal to bm who are not equally loyal to them. However, its easier said than done. I can't speak for British people, but in Canada and the US, black women are just now integrating beyond their own communities. We might think racialist perception and norms are thing of the past, but both black and white have only done it in a real sense in the past 15 yrs. real integration in every sense of the word would not be easy, since bw can't do it alone.

Halima: "Respectfully, you cannot tell me my brief. i know what i want to achieve and how, its not for you to decide a mission for me or to assume that I am on a mission that you have concieved."

Huda: That was not my intention, my apology if it came across that way.

Halima: There are so many books and writers out there working to the brief that you speak of ie analysising against mainstream or should i say blaming all on mainstream. Like I said I am not about that, I am about the fact that black women can get a whole host out of life by getting out of self defeating beliefs."

Huda: Yeah, I don't think blaming it all on mainstream society or on black communities work. All of these influences that bind us are integrated and come from various sources. I think discussing what binds black women to the detriment of their own happiness if not survivor is a very complex discussion. Some of it might not be easily shed. For instance, a Muslim black woman who grew up in our society will choice to be a practicing Muslim and would not marry a man who is not a Muslim. He could hail from Sweden or China, what is important to her is spiritual and intellectual unity with a partner. Some would say that's limiting her, but to millions of other Muslim women its not. The same way that many other Muslim women do not feel they need to marry a Muslim man.

This is the subjective matter in examining all black women I was talking about before.

Halima: I am happy to look at this work in terms of what individual bw can do to advance themselves and achieve their real desires, not some abstract or broad based discourse on how black elevation can be achieved!

Huda: I've only recently started to examine this issue, I'll let you know if I come across some great works.

By the way, thanks for the great discussion, your blog is a valuable contribution to the black community. I try to pass it on to my friends, even if looking @ the title of the blog make them hesitate to read.

@Sweetsoulsister, I can totally relate to what you are saying. To realize that many black women think this way is very sad and depressing indeed. Black women will never move forward as a group if they don't recognize and choose to change their self-defeating/self-destructive behaviors.

Huda: lool, well a black man is my father, brother, friend, colleague, president, etc. I might not have the negative perception of a lowly failure that is a black man in your mind.

Well, a black man is my father, brother, friend, and President (he's also half white and wouldn't be the man he is today without his white family who raised him after his black African father left him) TOO dear.

Do not dare to speak to me about my perceptions concerning black men.

How convenient is it that WHENEVER the truth about the majority (NOT all but the majority) of BM is discussed we hear the same OLD STALE AND TIRED "argument" of MY father, brother, uncle, cousin, is not like that.

Obviously, BW are not interested in marrying their fathers, brothers, uncles, and cousins so that is a MOOT POINT.

So lets get REAL here. This "defense of the BM in my family" routine when NOBODY is referring to NON damaged BM is simply meant to SIDELINE and hopefully CUT OFF discussion by guilt.

It's not working with me Huda and it shouldn't work with any other BW who's made the same legitimate observations that Halima and others have made.

Huda: I don't know what city you live in, but most middle and upper middle class black men from NY to Chicago do bring black women into so-called 'high society events'. Black culture is so diverse and rich with its many faults and cultural/class nuance that any given sweeping generalization is utterly stupid.

We must remember that everything that glitters is not gold. What's important is what's going on behind closed doors. Appearances are nice and dandy but they rarely tell the full story.

Black culture is so diverse and rich with its many faults and cultural/class nuance that any given sweeping generalization is utterly stupid.

Not a generalization but a fact. Current African-American culture simply does not value marriage by and large. And any culture that does not value marriage and the importance of two parents raising the children they bring into this world will eventually face demise.

Like these so called Afrocentric enlightened bm who use big words (half the time not used right or made up.lol) and people start talking about how he is deep and profound. I've seen this on YT and message boards as well as offline. You do have bp that realize it's a load of crap and wonder why others buy into it.

As for the Doctor Phil thing I remember when he had an ep and mentioned AA men not treating bw right and bw became angry and started on what does a wm know about aa people. He can't say anything it's racist, he ain't black etc. So again we (or bm protectionist) shoot themselves and us along with them in the foot.

"Trying to create the ideal black family even without the participation of black men- Many black women have signed up to the campaign to restore and continue the endangered black family without the crucial and necessary part of black men’s involvement."

From my POV this is the personification of insanity. It is a failed concept that has not worked to my knowledge in the history of civilization. Women holding a "race"/people together totally on their own. IMO BW should instead be about creating the ideal family PERIOD that they themselves can produce and benefit from today with the help of a good husband regardless of "race".

These "save the black family" (a family that the majority of BM by their absence have shown that they clearly do not wish to save) BW need to read the below article written by William Raspberry. A concerned and decent BM who is telling the truth.

"There is a crisis of unprecedented magnitude in the black community, one that goes to the very heart of its survival. The black family is failing."

Quibble if you will about the "unprecedented magnitude" -- slavery wasn't exactly a high point of African American well-being. But there's no quarreling with the essence of the alarm sounded here last week by a gathering of Pentecostal clergy and the Seymour Institute for Advanced Christian Studies. What is happening to the black family in America is the sociological equivalent of global warming: easier to document than to reverse, inconsistent in its near-term effect -- and disastrous in the long run.

Father absence is the bane of the black community, predisposing its children (boys especially, but increasingly girls as well) to school failure, criminal behavior and economic hardship, and to an intergenerational repetition of the grim cycle. The culprit, the ministers (led by the Rev. Eugene Rivers III of Boston, president of the Seymour Institute) agreed, is the decline of marriage.

Kenneth B. Johnson, a Seymour senior fellow who has worked in youth programs, says he often sees teenagers "who've never seen a wedding."

The concern is not new. As Rivers noted at last week's National Press Club news conference, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan sounded the alarm 40 years ago, only to be "condemned and pilloried as misinformed, malevolent and even racist."

What is new is the understanding of how deep and wide is the reach of declining marriage -- and the still-forming determination to do something about it.

When Moynihan issued his controversial study, roughly a quarter of black babies were born out of wedlock; moreover, it was largely a low-income phenomenon. The proportion now tops two-thirds, with little prospect of significant decline, and has moved up the socioeconomic scale.

There have been two main explanations. At the low-income end, the disproportionate incarceration, unemployment and early death of black men make them unavailable for marriage. At the upper-income level, it is the fact that black women are far likelier than black men to complete high school, attend college and earn the professional credentials that would render them "eligible" for marriage.

Both explanations are true. But black men aren't born incarcerated, crime-prone dropouts. What principally renders them vulnerable to such a plight is the absence of fathers and their stabilizing influence.

Fatherless boys (as a general rule) become ineligible to be husbands -- though no less likely to become fathers -- and their children fall into the patterns that render them ineligible to be husbands.

The absence of fathers means, as well, that girls lack both a pattern against which to measure the boys who pursue them and an example of sacrificial love between a man and a woman. As the ministers were at pains to say last week, it isn't the incompetence of mothers that is at issue but the absence of half of the adult support needed for families to be most effective.

Interestingly, they blamed the black church for abetting the decline of the black family -- by moderating virtually out of existence its once stern sanctions against extramarital sex and childbirth and by accepting the present trends as more or less inevitable.

They didn't say -- but might have -- that black America's almost reflexive search for outside explanations for our internal problems delayed the introspective examination that might have slowed the trend. What we have now is a changed culture -- a culture whose worst aspects are reinforced by oversexualized popular entertainment and that places a reduced value on the things that produced nearly a century of socioeconomic improvement. For the first time since slavery, it is no longer possible to say with assurance that things are getting better.

As the Rev. Jesse Jackson said in a slightly different context, "What began as a problem has deteriorated into a condition. Problems require solving; conditions require healing."

How to start the healing? Rivers and his colleagues hope to use their personal influence, a series of marriage forums and their well-produced booklet, "God's Gift: A Christian Vision of Marriage and the Black Family," to launch a serious, national discussion and action program.

In truth, though, the situation is so critical -- and its elements so interconnected and self-perpetuating -- that there is no wrong place to begin. When you find yourself in this sort of a hole, someone once said, the first thing to do is stop digging.

"As for the Doctor Phil thing I remember when he had an ep and mentioned AA men not treating bw right and bw became angry and started on what does a wm know about aa people. He can't say anything it's racist, he ain't black etc. So again we (or bm protectionist) shoot themselves and us along with them in the foot."

"How convenient is it that WHENEVER the truth about the majority (NOT all but the majority) of BM is discussed we hear the same OLD STALE AND TIRED "argument" of MY father, brother, uncle, cousin, is not like that."

99.9% of sistas will claim the brothas in my family are good. Well those that aren't good are somebody's male relative.

Huba we all have black fathers, uncles etc. Seriously though if many bw are having oow births (mostly by bm) then that's the worst example to use. This has been said over and over again. So do I. I have cousins, uncles etc. and what I notice is that many are married to ww, aw etc. you also have those that aren't. My problem is with bw that used that excuse of having fathers, brothers etc. well can you marry them? Cause last time I checked that is considered incest.

I remember the episode. And I'm not going to lie I thought that for about a split second as well. But I knew it was true. That's why I love eps, these sites is because they make you face what you know is there. I think a wm has as much right to say what's going on as a bm. Hell when I was young my mom's best friend a Hispanic woman noted the mistreatment of bw from bm and my or I didn't get upset, because we agreed. She was surprised bw put up with it and wondered why we just didn't leave their behinds.

How convenient is it that WHENEVER the truth about the majority (NOT all but the majority) of BM is discussed we hear the same OLD STALE AND TIRED "argument" of MY father, brother, uncle, cousin, is not like that.

---LOL! You just know that out of that long list of BM relatives and associates Mammies like to pull out of their butts, at least one is definitely a deadbeat baby daddy, has a criminal record or abuses/deals drugs.

""How convenient is it that WHENEVER the truth about the majority (NOT all but the majority) of BM is discussed we hear the same OLD STALE AND TIRED "argument" of MY father, brother, uncle, cousin, is not like that."

99.9% of sistas will claim the brothas in my family are good. Well those that aren't good are somebody's male relative."

@ Anon,

Amen. Not only that, but good is relative, which could actually equal subpar considering how low the bar is for BM.

1st anon: "Well, a black man is my father, brother, friend, and President (he's also half white and wouldn't be the man he is today without his white family who raised him after his black African father left him) TOO dear.

Do not dare to speak to me about my perceptions concerning black men."

Huda: I think convoluting the high rate of absentee black fathers with the small minority of biracial kids not rejected by their white relatives is neither here nor there.

Within my own family with its biracial and multi-religious diversity, I've seen the good, the bad and ugly side to humanity and it goes beyond some racial barrier or one racial dominance over another when it comes to family value.

We live in a society where 74% happen to be predominately of European or Caucasian background. Blacks account to about 14% and from all statistics indicates fatherless children is a growing disaster, where among whites its around 40%, while among blacks its around 60%, Hispanics around 50%...and not getting any better.

anon: "How convenient is it that WHENEVER the truth about the majority (NOT all but the majority) of BM is discussed we hear the same OLD STALE AND TIRED "argument" of MY father, brother, uncle, cousin, is not like that."

Huda: well I can play tit for tat and say how convenient it is for those who only have negative things to say about the black family, to ignore the positive flourishing around us by throwing their own personal experience or that of others.

However, I won't be playing this same self defeating argument that only goes in circle of bad black men, bad black women, good white man, bad white man, blah, blah.

anon: "Obviously, BW are not interested in marrying their fathers, brothers, uncles, and cousins so that is a MOOT POINT."

Huda: actually we are interested in marrying or avoiding men/women like our parents, its basic human psychology. I believe one must know his/her audience even if they are dropping some home truth no one wants to hear. The more you start with negative and personal attacks, the less likely one would listen even if what you are saying is the truth.

anon: "So lets get REAL here. This "defense of the BM in my family" routine when NOBODY is referring to NON damaged BM is simply meant to SIDELINE and hopefully CUT OFF discussion by guilt."

Huda: No need to write in Caps, it says I'm shouting. We can discuss this in a civil manner, without personal attacks and cheap points.

Huda, Would you come over to my post http://bit.ly/9mhj2j on "Lovin' My Sistas"? No one there has taken a strong opposing view to my post. I would appreciate your input.

Huda: Sure, I'll check it out.

2nd anon: "Huba we all have black fathers, uncles etc. Seriously though if many bw are having oow births (mostly by bm) then that's the worst example to use. This has been said over and over again. So do I. I have cousins, uncles etc. and what I notice is that many are married to ww, aw etc. you also have those that aren't. My problem is with bw that used that excuse of having fathers, brothers etc. well can you marry them? Cause last time I checked that is considered incest."

Huda: I know in America, the rate of fatherless children is a growing disaster in all racial groups....but more so in our black community. I neither argued nor assumed stats showing high rate of unmarried educated black women or fatherless children does not exist.

Rather, the post that Halima created and we all are discussing have to deal with the 'general' issues that concerns black women and those things that negatively impacts her, whether she's a participatory actor or not.

More importantly, I think its time we have to equally discuss why so many black women are willing to settle for such men and be used as a dumping ground for their seeds. We can't only be blaming the black man, it takes 2 to tango as the saying goes.

Culturally black women whether in Africa or in the west have been a leader within their own communities and families, but ever since the 60s' the failure of black men to be accountable to their families is why so many of our youth have problems in education, employment, etc. I can get into the role black leaders, churches and individuals play in contributing to this societal problem, but it will take lengthy essays to do so.

How convenient is it that WHENEVER the truth about the majority (NOT all but the majority) of BM is discussed we hear the same OLD STALE AND TIRED "argument" of MY father, brother, uncle, cousin, is not like that.

****

ITA Just because someone is a "good" brother, son, uncle or what have you it doesnt mean that they are neccessarily good in a ROMANTIC relationship. (Seriously, how OBJECTIVE can you be when your RELATED to that person in the first place!?)

Stale and tired argument indeed. FAMILIAL relationships don't have the same dynamics as ROMANTIC relationships!! DUH!

Some people need to stop pretending all these relationships are the same, when they're NOT. Unless you've dated your brother, cousin, or uncle you dont know how he conducts himself in a romantic relationship. Good grief!

It's sad:( these sistas keep trying to 'fix' the community like its 1970:( that was forty years ago. anyway its MEN who need to uplift the community:-- there is one group i know that MAY have an answer:) go on www.bondinfo.org Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson who is trying to fix the problem

You do not share the same framework in terms of analysis of the situation as most of the commetors here and while that in itself is not wrong, it is hardly of any value to be arguing or debating with someone who does not share the same argument basis and premise for instance, the only agreement an atheist and a theist have with each other is that they cannot agree with their foundational arguments about God.

I am saying this because I might have to not post some of your comments when there is just too great a gap between your thinking and ours/mine.

I want to point out a few here

We do not feel a need to ascribe to the PC orthodoxy of 'surely some black men have to be good etc etc' which i believe informs your arguments and of course gives rise to the 'my uncle, father, brother..etc' comments.

This is not to say that we think that no single black man is doing what he ought to, but we recognise this as a 'shutting down' technique of those who want bw to remain mum and prevent them from sharing 'intelligence' about the on the ground situation that they are experincing, as opposed to the theories and 'we have to be PC' approach that might apply generally but do not serve with bw's situation.

when a country is going to war for instance, it sends out reconnaissance teams to verify that the assumptions and theories being held about the other country, are for real. We have discovered that when bw work from theory they often are ill served than when they share real life intelligence as to what is going on. Eg, it should stand to reason (the theory is), that black men should be more caring and brotherly towards black women. this is the theory, but from sharing intelligence, we know that this isnt quite the case and that bw these days have reasons to be more fearful of black men than others.

Bw have to work the opposite way; that is from practice to theory, than the other way round for their sanity's sake!

To me you appear to be working in counter to this pattern. No big deal, but it will cause some friction on this particular blog.

Your 'My father, uncle...etc' coment to me, springs from this 'surely there must be some bm doing well' PC approach and 'we must make these good bm the chief focus', pattern of conversations that is now entrenched in black discourse.

in addition there is nothing about the muslim women example that you added that in anyway negates this particular discussion or makes it irrelevant, so i am really wondering why you are trotting that one out.

I am also wondering were ww have said that white men are their saviours. I havent yet come across to any significant extent, ww saying such, or stating such explicitly, so once again this is me reading you as 'with your head stuck in a theory book'.

More importantly, I think its time we have to equally discuss why so many black women are willing to settle for such men and be used as a dumping ground for their seeds. We can't only be blaming the black man, it takes 2 to tango as the saying goes.

Huda again this is where we are showing fundamental difference in the framework we are applying to this situation.

Bw widespread settling for single parenthood is in essence displaying that this is the only way they see to fulfill the injunction placed upon them by the black community, to continue to make their choices for black men and black children, in the face of black men disconnecting from the agenda.

It is my belief that if black women felt that their choices of men and children were not bound to the ‘black construct’, and they were not bound to black men and having children with these men, then having chikdren within the confines of marriage (by any man who was willing to offer such an arrangement) would take over.

Its all very good and well to see black women as having all the agency of choice like everyone else about dating and reproduction, without recognising the powerful pressuring injunction to ‘keep it in black’, that effectively shapes the final outcome.

More importantly, I think its time we have to equally discuss why so many black women are willing to settle for such men and be used as a dumping ground for their seeds. We can't only be blaming the black man, it takes 2 to tango as the saying goes.

Hallelujah! ITA with you on this point, yet when I and others have tried to help some bw to clearly delineate the DBRbm from more reasonable choices around them in ALL men, a whole slew of nasty-mouth, lying bw and bm online claimed I was saying that ALL bm are DBRs, which I've NEVER said and I've also NEVER said that ALL wm are saviors either. That too is a LIE!

When I was a girl, the women around me never minced words about the no-good bm in the vicinity. They were extremely explicit, so I was never confused. That was great for me because I learned how to differentiate quality from non-quality EARLY. MOST bw I meet these days do NOT know that or don't feel they should believe that some AA men are no good because they view all AA men as da po' bm. They're confused due in part to the massive bm protectionism industry in the bc.

For ex., when I tried to get it across to some young bw in an impoverished bc over in the town near me that they should romantically stay the heck away from any ex-con, they became angry at me and accused me of being a SNOB. LOL!!! And other bw who are my age and older sat there silently and COWARDLY.

And on the subject of all of these good bm and "wonderful" bm relatives--LOL!--yesterday I talked with 2 of my good bm cousins. Afterwards, I sat and counted ALL of the wonderful AA men in my family, and I actually counted 8 of them who I would totally vouch for, but then there are a lot of others of them on both sides of my large family who I refuse to associate with because they are hardcore DBRs. Believe me, I know that. And they ARE ALL serial babydaddies with abandoned children all over the place. ALL of those children are at-risk, seriously damaged or already dead. I don't know why any woman would be interested in my DBRbm cousins, but a LOT of bw ***believe*** that we should all give ANY bm a chance to show us how wonderful he really is. LOL!!!

Most bw do NOT vet AA men the way other men are vetted. Folks around a typical bw will criticize her to the max and say she's being "too picky." Yet after he leaves her with his "seed(s)," those same folks will blame HER. This happens ALL of the time.

I realize that some women of all groups are just going to make bad choices in men, but the #1 reason why so many AA women do that is because they're not even allowed to ***think*** that any bm is the scum of the earth. I've noticed online and offline that the minute a typical bw might say anything negative about a bm who's even a baby-raper or child killer, she almost always tries to find something to say to take the blame for his heinous acts off him. Or she'll start trying to blame bw. That's protectionism.

(Sigh) We've been having this SAME discussion for the past 4 years. I seriously hope that all of the bw reading this are doing all in their power to MOVE ON.

I believe that one of the main reasons that some folks keep regurgitating all of this stuff is to keep bw reading and pondering instead of turning over heaven and earth to find ways to MOVE ON.

We do not feel a need to subscribe (not ascribe) to the PC orthodoxy of 'surely some black men have to be good etc etc' which i believe informs your arguments and of course gives rise to the 'my uncle, father, brother..etc' comments.

Great post Halima. I'm a long time lurker and I have to commend you for telling the truth.

I happened to come by another blog that I stopped reading since he continued to write posts about why white men were not interested in black women blah blah blah. While there I ran into eshowoman who felt the need to complain about her recent experience at your blog.

I have come to the point where I'm sad to say that it doesn't look like a lot of black women will be saved. After reading that blog and the comments from black women, every point you made in this post was on point about black women's psychology!

There are just too many sister soldier types, and not enough black women with common sense and survival sense. Indoctrination is one thing but I'm starting to believe that some of theses women are just plain evil! They want to influence young girls and women who could escape, since they need others to suffer with them. What else could explain repeating the same debunked lies?

On this blog women went on and on about why they wouldn't date a white man...they can't get over slavery rape, white men are racist, they only want sex, fetishize black women, they don't want/abandon biracial children, they use the N-word towards their black spouse blah blah blah!Many of these women have never even interacted with or been in relationships or even friendships with white men!

It amazes me how these women know the psychology of men they don't interact with!

Many of these women go on about how white men are racist but ignore their own racism towards white men. It really is sad since many won’t even consider dating other non AA black men, even though they like to throw in they would date other men of colour (I call bull). These women just throw in other men of colour to make themselves appear less prejudice! I just want to walk up to some of these women and knock on their forehead and say “think McFly think”.

One last point and I think Evia mentioned this in the last post. Many of these women are so delusional! They keep saying things like “the ball is in white men’s courts "and “it's white men’s responsibility to approach black women” and “that’s why black women don’t want to date white men. The problem here is they make it seem like white men are the ones who are having a hard time finding marriage partners and as if white men are the ones being packed into black concentration camps to be exterminated and used as latrines!

Lets be honest white men don’t have to deal with the headache that these women bring, they can date white, non AA, latino, arab and asain women. They can continue to not date white men all they want but they really need to stop pretending as if white men are the ones loosing out!

Black women can either mate out or die out! Unfortunately it seems too many want to die out (wait for black love).

Part 1Re:There are just too many sister soldier types, and not enough black women with common sense and survival sense. Indoctrination is one thing but I'm starting to believe that some of theses women are just plain evil!

ITA! And I have to point out that it was actually one of my older bm cousins who told me a couple of years ago that I needed to stop using 5 billion words and to just tell bw flat out that those are their only 2 choices: MATE OUT or DIE OUT! So, I have to make sure he gets the credit for that slogan.LOL!

Here's my thing about the sista-soldiers. If they want to continue with this hoax and fight ***the war that never was*** and suffer/ die out, that's HER choice, but we can clearly see that some of them are hell-bent on taking as many other unwitting black girls and bw as possible with them.

There are 2 distinct camps here (for the sake of this discussion): the Mate Outs (Mos)and the Die Outs (Dos). LOL!

And yes, wm do have lots of choices, but bw actually have more choices because the black woman has the FEMALE card. The female card is the strongest card in the deck. The bw must NEVER forget that. She has that card! And there is a high demand for that card because of its value to human life.

At this transitional point in time, the MAIN issue is that many MOs-bw (those bw who might want to mate out) in the USA and UK do not know how to play that card.

That's a metaphorical and simple explanation, but 'all things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the best answer' (according to the principle of Occam's Razor). I have found this principle to be of great value when applied to a LOT of situations.

(1)The MOs must stop being so coy and find all kinds of direct and subtle ways to widely broadcast their interest in quality white and other men in the general global village,(just like ALL other women in the USA and UK do), and simultaneously

(2) the MOs are going to have to learn the skills in playing the card well.

A LOT of WM do NOT believe that bw are actually interested in them. They're not familiar with bw, just like lots of bw are not familiar with wm. So since wm have other more familiar choices, they flock towards those familiar choices.

Therefor sane black women like yourself - and others in the listening audience - need to CEASE communicating with (both online AND offline) insane and deranged black women and men IMMEDIATELY.

WRITE THEM OFF.

Like Evia said, ya'll need to be moving Heaven and Earth NOW to get out of these Hell Holes.

Reading and agreeing with what is said at these various BW Empowerment blogs/sites means NOTHING unless you are spending MORE time OFFLINE putting common sense into practice.

Ladies,

If you find yourself in the same position relationship wise you were in 4 years ago, and do not wish to be in this same position 4 years from now, turn off the computer and GET OUT THERE.

If you're not putting into practice OFFLINE the good sound rational and common sense advise that has been shared with you for over 4 years now, then it's all for naught.

And NOTHING would please the haters more than to think that single, beautiful, and intelligent black women are simply venting online instead of out there securing good non damaged marriage oriented men in the global village.

PROVE THEM WRONG.

The haters want you STUCK and waisting precious time (that cannot be retrieved) arguing and debating with them endlessly (online and off) instead of LEAVING them for good and doing YOU.

Doing what's best for you with WHO is best for you regardless of "race"/nationality/ethnicity/color.

Don't fall for these STALL tactics that DBRBM and DBRBW are trying to employ.

Halima said:"When black women come together, they actively engage in black male adoration, endorsing and eulogising black males and making sometimes poetic pronouncements to convey their love and how enraptured they are by the magnificience of black manhood which is superior to all others lol!"

Me: I'm a middle-aged American. When I was growing up, I used to hear (and still do, lol) black women/girls say "a n!gg*r ain't sh!t" and "I can do bad by myself" on a regular basis.

These pronouncements are not new so I'm assuming many American black women know (and have ALWAYS "known") the real deal about American black men. In other words, American black women (at least a large number of them) have had a certain cynicism about American black men for a LONG time.

I get the big picture but I don't think that it is completely accurate to say that AMERICAN black women (as a group) are totally "adoring, endorsing and eulogising black males". The saying that "a n!gg*r ain't sh!t", for example, is something that MANY black American women have been saying for YEARS. This statement is so common, here in America, that I doubt you can find a American black person, of either sex, who has never heard a black woman say it. It is that common! As is the statement "I can do bad by myself".

In America, a black woman can say "n!gg*rs ain't sh!t" and "I can do bad by myself" and STILL want a black man. Or at least not want a white man. Or so they say. Why?

Therefore, on every board, blog, discussion, the bw-MOs are going to have to make it clear that you ARE interested in including quality wm in your dating pool. Of course, the Dos are going to jump up and tongue lash you, but you don't have to argue with anybody.

Just state your position and your interest. See how I don't argue with anyone on my site? I just say what I want to say. I just put up the pics. LOL! Yes, I know that the Die Outs are furious that I won't allow them to use my site to spread their poison. But who cares? We're not like-minded, so I don't have to talk to them and why should I? There'll just be more infighting.

I've watched this all play out. Too much of the MOs energy is consumed arguing with the Die Outs and when you argue with a Die Out, you give him or her an opportunity to spread more POISON. That's what they WANT, yet so many MOs (EMOTIONAL bw) play right into their hands.

I do debate die outs here on Halima's site (1) because her site is a bridge site and (2) because I know Halima's going to control the poison or get rid of it.

Someone sent me a link to that site you referenced because my name was mentioned and if you notice, there was a tremendous amount of poison spread. And as I scanned the comments, I barely read any bw say FLAT OUT that she was interested in dating quality wm. It was just mainly the usual poisonous stuff.

I think some of the MOs feel that if they're quiet, they won't be attacked on those boards, but you're being savaged ANYWAY because the Die Outs are doing their best to cut off all the escape routes/opportunities and kill your spirit. As Shecodes so rightly pointed out in Halima's last thread, the Die Outs want to kill your POTENTIAL to escape. That's exactly what they want.

Use an Anonymous moniker if you need to, but no matter what any Die Out says, you've got to just keep saying like a broken record that you and SOME other bw ARE very interested in dating quality, respectful wm. If each of you reading this makes it a point to go to one or more of those blogs or boards a few times a week and say that FLAT OUT, the message WILL get through that SOME bw are very interested in dating WM. BUT DO NOT argue.

Evia said, And yes, wm do have lots of choices, but bw actually have more choices because the black woman has the FEMALE card. The female card is the strongest card in the deck. The bw must NEVER forget that. She has that card! And there is a high demand for that card because of its value to human life

Yes Yes and Yes! From early on I knew that being a women is advantageous! I used that to my advantage while in University, work, and in my relationships, hence why I'm dating a quality man.

I think it was the free your mind conference that one of the men said that "racism is for men". His asain sister is treated differently from him. I wish black women would think of themselves as women and not always as race women.

I get the big picture but I don't think that it is completely accurate to say that AMERICAN black women (as a group) are totally "adoring, endorsing and eulogising black males". The saying that "a n!gg*r ain't sh!t", for example, is something that MANY black American women have been saying for YEARS. This statement is so common, here in America, that I doubt you can find a American black person, of either sex, who has never heard a black woman say it. It is that common! As is the statement "I can do bad by myself".

That right there should tell you that the bc is jacked up. Because I've heard an N ain't ish, but then black women talking about the good bm and bm will come back once they get their heads together etc. Know what they are missing and all that crap. As for why they say this and then want black? Think about it bw are being told to keep the race going, we are the backbone (mules)of the black community, it's our job to produce black babies to get at the wm and to keep with the struggle. Oh and don't forget we need to give a bm a change even if he went to jail for molesting children.

The way folks are going, very soon bw will be unable to say anything about anything!

Halima girl can't you see that this is the attitude that black men and even other black women, have had against black women since probably the 1960s? LOL

Everybody and anybody is just aloud to pour out all their opinions about black women and the way some of us act whether 'they're' opinions of black women are based in some truth or in some lies and they pour it all out without saying anything nice about black women when they say things. Most of the time they don't even say the typical 'black women are queens and mothers of the Earth' or whatever.

Yet when black women want to say their opinion about black men's behavior they always feel that they have to start out with 'I love black men but...'

I mean even Fleace Weaver's flyer advertizing the Interracial Free Your Mind events had to have some kind of un-prompted 'I love black men but...' disclaimer on them. Dear Lord just PLEASE just take the case.

Many AA women have been PROGRAMMED or WIRED to be attracted to a bm's voice, body mass, his skin shade, his smell, his taste, his swagger or "cool"ness, the way typical bm dress, his "conversation (or his talking sh#t)," his sense of humor, the way he moves, the way he wears his hair, his sense of general style, his eyes, his smile, the color of his teeth against his lips, the shape of his body on down to the shape of a bm's buttocks, (LOL!)etc.

Many AA women love the loudness and deepness of AA man's voice (some), his fake-aggressive or laidback "Mr. Cool and Collected" manner, etc. all of which they interpret as "MAN"ly confidence.

Yeah the repair man/fix-it man never fixed me up or wired my wires this way because I have never 'gotten that' and I can honestly look back on my childhood years and even my teenage years to a degree and still say that.

But what I can't stand is when other black women start speaking for ALL black women by saying that we all feel in the way you desribed above, but that's typical and par for the course isn't it?

They didn't say -- but might have -- that black America's almost reflexive search for outside explanations for our internal problems delayed the introspective examination that might have slowed the trend.

Felicia, this part above is 100% true I think and blacks have been acting this same way for too long now.

Huda: well I can play tit for tat and say how convenient it is for those who only have negative things to say about the black family, to ignore the positive flourishing around us by throwing their own personal experience or that of others.

But this just sounds very defensive to me and this goes back to what Halima was saying which was 'soon black women won't be able to say anything at all about anything or anybody', and regarding that when it comes to black women I think that has been the case already for a few decades now at least!

Because black women on BWE blogs talk about real and negative situations, attitudes and ways of life that keep on occuring, other people have a real problem with it because none of the women want to act like Pollyanna or don't act like they're being watched by the 'positive police'? This is just as bad as the people who act like they're the 'black police' by trying to make sure every black person acts like they're 'down'.

Look at news and newspaper websites and blogs when they're talking about the reality of the deficit, the recession, crime, the highs and lows of the Obama Administration, Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea fears etc. now if someone couldn't stand all the negative-sounding commenting on blogs that have concerns about negative reality-based situations going on in their local area or within their country don't you think that that person should just go to another site instead of saying to everybody 'It's very convenient to talk about fears of the recession's effects on the country continuing when there are still Americans who have jobs and are still working and paying their mortgage and rent'!

Or if you looked at a website regarding cancer, diabetes, arthritis etc. and living with it and their health and nutritional concerns and someone says that they can't stand the negativity of what they have heard on the website about these diseases and what they can do to the people who have them.

You have a nice blog.I enjoy reading many of the books and papers on building a successful practice but “Change Therapy” by David Diana is one of the most unique yet. It is a collection of articles and stories that read like Levitt’s Freakonomics or Gladwell’s Outliers. The stories are fresh, unexpected and thought provoking. It’s a free download so take a look for yourself or share with your community. http://www.davidpdiana.com/about-2/change-therapy-e-book-download/

I get the big picture but I don't think that it is completely accurate to say that AMERICAN black women (as a group) are totally "adoring, endorsing and eulogising black males". The saying that "a n!gg*r ain't sh!t", for example, is something that MANY black American women have been saying for YEARS. This statement is so common, here in America, that I doubt you can find a American black person, of either sex, who has never heard a black woman say it. It is that common! As is the statement "I can do bad by myself".

In America, a black woman can say "n!gg*rs ain't sh!t" and "I can do bad by myself" and STILL want a black man. Or at least not want a white man. Or so they say. Why?

Exactly anonymous american, the people that come here to this blog to comment NONE of us can understand why they say that a' n-word ain't shit' but in the same breath stay with black men and only them anyway and stick up for them and protest and march on any black man's behalf as soon as a cop or cops use a black man's head for baseball practice.

Black women should have left the DBR bm behind a long time ago, and just let the law and the cops just do their jobs! So sorry I don't have an answer for you because like Felicia said these certain black women are acting insane because what they do makes no sense at all.

A Taster for you!

About Me, About the Blog

Hi I am Halima AndersonI am an author with a passion for the relationship 'well-being' of black women, hence the writing of the book, "Supposing I wanted to Date a White Guy...? It is important for me to specify that this blog is for women who are new to interracial dating or who still have struggles with the idea and want to see if it is a thing for them. This category of black women will be my primary focus!If you are already in an IR or are open to the idea, I wish you good luck!

Email: something2say(at)gmail(dot)com

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BW constitute anything from 60-80% of the makeup of black churches yet they seem to be the ones who have their welfare and needs subordinated to every other agenda, particularly in the issue of marriage and upholding the black family. If your blog is one which critically examins bw's role and place in the church please email me your links.