Idahopotato wrote:Yes, but those people had financial backing from merchants and nobles. Not too many merchants and nobles were willing to front a messianic journey. Especially considering a wealthy segment of Jews were vehemently against it.And it wasn't so much that food was bland, but rather to mask the fact that they lacked refrigeration. It is much more palatable to each rotten food with a healthy dose of "spice" added.

Man, am I not allowed to make jokes on this site or something?! And yes, spices were needed to cover up the rotting flavour, but let's face it, most European food is pretty tame, even the good stuff.

I thought I was being funny too, but obviously not. In my head, I picture a ragged character asking kings, noblemen and merchants for a loan to spread the word. After the laughter stops, I see a pouting Jesus stomp his feat and say "but, but, but I am the Messiah!"And let's not lump European food together like that. As a former chef, I had opportunities to try just about every type of food known to man (to be fair, some of the type of food that one would almost never see came from my Ranger days). It is the English, German and Northern European food that suck. Well I shouldn't say sucks, as many people prefer bland food. The French have some pretty good food, as do the Italians (especially Piedmont region), but I prefer the Spanish. Ah but I guess food should get its own topic.

Fair enough, the people in the mediterranean do have some pretty good food, and the French did come up with some of my favourites. But honestly, compare any of that with most Indian dishes and they could still be considered on the bland side (not really bland to me admittedly, but people from India would think it's pretty tame).

And yes, this is becoming extremely derailing to this already derailed thread!

Well it isn't really fair to compare the complexity of any cuisine to Indian, as it is the most complex cuisine there is. That is like comparing Paul's prescience with a standard citizen, or perhaps comparing the Fremen fighting ability with the Harkonnens. Thai would be a distant second (kind of like Saurdakar I guess).

Yeah I forgot about Misogyny, its a much more acurate word to describe the BT. How ironic that there monopoly essentially depends on women. One of the dangers of the Fish Speaker matriarchy I always thought was that women tend to be more open to Misandry than men are to Misogyny. Men tend to be more abusive but women seem to be better at living without men than men without women. Probably due to the fact that men have a higher sex drive/libido?

I don't think the Tleilaxu were decidedly misogynistic. Rather, they had serious reasons to distrust and dislike both the BGs and the HMs. True, they also had a patriarchy society, something FH seemingly did not much approve of, but besides using females as axlotl tanks, there is no indication of open misogyny. After all, Masters, at least, were known to engage in sexual intercourse with women, although Tleilaxu women apparently were not allowed to occupy important social positions.

WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE?MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!

Were did you see something that would imply there were women anywhere in the Tleilax society?(apart form the tanks)I never got that impression but I could be mistaken

I thought the Masters used Face Dancers for their sexual needs(but that comes from that bit where one of the Masters tries sexual highs with a FD that has imprinted a Honoured Matre, and barely manages to kill it)

lotek wrote:Were did you see something that would imply there were women anywhere in the Tleilax society?(apart form the tanks)I never got that impression but I could be mistaken

I thought the Masters used Face Dancers for their sexual needs(but that comes from that bit where one of the Masters tries sexual highs with a FD that has imprinted a Honoured Matre, and barely manages to kill it)

I was on about real life, not in the context of Dune. Ever heard of Seperationist Femminism? Its essentially a bunch of men hating skanks living in a comune without men. If you read some of the shit they wright (SCUM manifesto fo example), you kind of think to yourself thank god they don't have an army. What if a bunch of Fish Speakers thought like that? "Men are self destructive, so why do we need them". Its proven men are more sexually dependent on women than women are of men because men have a higher sex drive and libido. Ironically its exactly why men are more suceptable to the whole rape/pillige thing. Just a thought I had. No it isn't mentioned in Dune but it is something I thought of whilst reading GEOD.

Kensai wrote:I was on about real life, not in the context of Dune. Ever heard of Seperationist Femminism? Its essentially a bunch of men hating skanks living in a comune without men. If you read some of the shit they wright (SCUM manifesto fo example), you kind of think to yourself thank god they don't have an army.

I never heard of SCUM but I am not surprised such a thing would exist.I did think we were talking about Bene Tleilax specifically though...

Kensai wrote: What if a bunch of Fish Speakers thought like that? "Men are self destructive, so why do we need them".

That was the part that made me wonder if you read Chapterhouse(no offence intented )because that is a description of the Honoured Matres, the remnant of Fish Speakers and Reverend Mothers in the scattering mingled with the BT Lost Ones.And the HM are the female counterpart to the BT in both their extremes.

I'll get back with that HoD quote; gotta finish tyding up my mess(never start a big DYI job on a thursday afternoon, that's my advice for today lol)

I know what you mean, I didn't really count the HM as being the BT's counterparts before because the HM still have men around, then again, they do use them like tools just like the BT use their women as tools (as they are still around) so I get your point.

lotek wrote:Were did you see something that would imply there were women anywhere in the Tleilax society?(apart form the tanks)I never got that impression but I could be mistaken

Heretics of Dune wrote:It was proper that even Waff, the most powerful of all Tleilaxu, could not leave his world and be readmitted without abasing himself in the ghufran, begging pardon for contact with the unimaginable sins of aliens. To go out among the powindah could soil even the mightiest. The khasadars who policed all Tleilaxu frontiers and guarded the selamliks of the women were right to suspect even Waff. He was of the people and the kehl, yes, but he must prove it each time he left the heartland and returned, and certainly every time he entered the selamlik for the distribution of his sperm.

WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE?MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!

lotek wrote:Were did you see something that would imply there were women anywhere in the Tleilax society?(apart form the tanks)I never got that impression but I could be mistaken

Heretics of Dune wrote:It was proper that even Waff, the most powerful of all Tleilaxu, could not leave his world and be readmitted without abasing himself in the ghufran, begging pardon for contact with the unimaginable sins of aliens. To go out among the powindah could soil even the mightiest. The khasadars who policed all Tleilaxu frontiers and guarded the selamliks of the women were right to suspect even Waff. He was of the people and the kehl, yes, but he must prove it each time he left the heartland and returned, and certainly every time he entered the selamlik for the distribution of his sperm.

Hmmm ... the Turkish word Selamlik is the opposite of Harem, so meant for men and not women.

"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,and wrote a Dune Novel."

lotek wrote:Were did you see something that would imply there were women anywhere in the Tleilax society?(apart form the tanks)I never got that impression but I could be mistaken

Heretics of Dune wrote:It was proper that even Waff, the most powerful of all Tleilaxu, could not leave his world and be readmitted without abasing himself in the ghufran, begging pardon for contact with the unimaginable sins of aliens. To go out among the powindah could soil even the mightiest. The khasadars who policed all Tleilaxu frontiers and guarded the selamliks of the women were right to suspect even Waff. He was of the people and the kehl, yes, but he must prove it each time he left the heartland and returned, and certainly every time he entered the selamlik for the distribution of his sperm.

Nice one!I was thinking of one where I believe Lady Janet(Miles Teg's BG mother)says something like "They exist", when asked about the reality of Tleillax females.

Serkanner wrote:Hmmm ... the Turkish word Selamlik is the opposite of Harem, so meant for men and not women.

Interesting Do you have that definition at hand?And it's funny since that word is also the one for the Imperial Audience Chamber NB:Isnt it the Weapon Makers from AE Van Vogt that ends with those cryptic words "Here is the race that will reign on the selamlik"? Or am I confused again?

Omphalos wrote:There is a selamlik in Topkapi palace in Istanbul, in case anyone is interested.

I working in the housing business and often visit tenants original from North Africa or the Middle East. Most of their homes have a special room for men only as well. I bet they are also called selamlik. I will ask one of them some day.

"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,and wrote a Dune Novel."