im terrible at giving advice to mothers who dont breastfeed, because i solved almost every problem with the breast., nutrition, health, bonding, sleep, you name it. Im still pretty clueless when it comes to ear infections. Mothering does seem so much easier down the road when breastfeeding.

I exclusively breastfed until at least six months, didn't really start solids with any verve until nine months, and still breastfeed at 15 months. Guess what, my daughter still had multiple colds, bronchitis, multiple ear infections, rsv, etc. breastfeeding does not eliminate illness.

I exclusively breastfed until at least six months, didn't really start solids with any verve until nine months, and still breastfeed at 15 months. Guess what, my daughter still had multiple colds, bronchitis, multiple ear infections, rsv, etc. breastfeeding does not eliminate illness.

Thats interesting. In my case it seemed to reduce it considerably compared to other kids.

There are always colds that come and go, but they go pretty quickly. Breastfeeding was a Gdsend when it came to stomach bugs.

Like anything else, it makes life a lot easier or one mom, not for another. These experiences are never universal. Of course there's always the unknown of what would a particular kid have gone through with/without breastfeeding. Maybe my daughter would've gotten more sick more often. Maybe your kid is just lucky and wouldn't have gotten sick much either way. Who knows!

on the same token people need to stop saying how "hard" BFing is. i know that there could be challenges but thats not the norm and BFing should not hurt. i know women who chose not to BF after hearing so many horror stories. i personally find BFing to be easy.

Like anything else, it makes life a lot easier or one mom, not for another. These experiences are never universal. Of course there's always the unknown of what would a particular kid have gone through with/without breastfeeding. Maybe my daughter would've gotten more sick more often. Maybe your kid is just lucky and wouldn't have gotten sick much either way. Who knows!

i figured the antibodies in the breastmilk had something to do with it. But anythings possible.

Sure, but they're not a magic bullet. Lots of kids breastfeed and still get sick. Maybe they're less sick because of the antibodies, maybe they only got five colds instead of ten. When you act like breastfeeding will make your life sooo muh easier braise your baby won't get sick, though, it's kind of a bait an switch.

Breast fed babies IN THE AGGREGATE get sick less than formula fed babies, but there's no guarantee for a particular breastfed baby.

Sure, but they're not a magic bullet. Lots of kids breastfeed and still get sick. Maybe they're less sick because of the antibodies, maybe they only got five colds instead of ten. When you act like breastfeeding will make your life sooo muh easier braise your baby won't get sick, though, it's kind of a bait an switch.

I think breastfeeding is stacking the deck in favour of health. There are no guarantees, but "stacking the deck" is a good enough reason to try.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us. One is good and the other is evil. The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?). We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

Oh absolutely. I wholeheartedly support breastfeeding and think, in general, it is the right choice. I don't think it's easy, though, and sometimes I think the benefits for a particular baby are overstated.

Too many moms say they breastfeed when they give more formula than breastmilk, in my experience. To me, that's a lie. It makes it seem that breastmilk has fewer advantages because they discount the formula they give. My own sister claimed to have breastfed her three boys. After I had my son, and I asked her for breastfeeding advice, I discovered that she gave formula all throughout the day, and only breastfed at night, and not even right before going to sleep! I had similar conversations with friends and neighbors, where bottles of formula dominated the conversations, but they still called themselves breastfeeders.

It may not hurt when you get used to it, but everything has its learning curve.

what i meant is if it hurts there is something going on like tongue tie, lip tie, bad latch etc. if dont correctly BFing should not hurt KWIM? ive just heard too many women use this as an excuse to stop trying without addressing why it's hurting. kind of sad

I don't think that's always the case. It was for me, but I think experiences can vary depending on things like nipple sensitivity and size. Even when latch is right it can be pretty uncomfortable at first.

what i meant is if it hurts there is something going on like tongue tie, lip tie, bad latch etc. if dont correctly BFing should not hurt KWIM? ive just heard too many women use this as an excuse to stop trying without addressing why it's hurting. kind of sad

this is simply not true. You can have a perfect latch, no tie, no thrush -- and it can still be painful at latch for the first few weeks, as your nipples get used to the constant wear and tear.

Telling people that it ONLY hurts if you are doing something WRONG is, in my opinion AND experience, a sure way to shorten many women's nursing experience and put them off.

I hear "experts" and "Lactivisits" repeating the "Done correctly it doesn't hurt" trope over and over and over and over, and at the same time, I hear women saying "It did hurt for the first few weeks, and I had my latch checked and everything checked" over and over and over. I tend to believe the actual experiences of multiple women over the non-evidence-based claims of people who are trying to sell breastfeeding as an experience.

FOR THE RECORD: Neither of my kids ever had any formula. I nursed, pumped at work, did everything it took to do that for them. Both were good nursers from the beginning. Yet it was definitely painful at latch for a good 3 weeks with my first, and at least a week or two with my second. I was afraid something was horribly wrong with my first - I had no previous experience, and all my resources were saying that pain meant something was wrong and I was doomed to failure. Finally someone said "Look, if its just at latch and subsides, a lot of the time that's just normal." And it was, and it got better, and we went on to nurse successfully until he was 18 months old. I'm not someone who was unsuccessful in the long run -- so don't attribute what I say to bitterness, sour grapes, or needing to attribute my Failure as a Mother (tm) to bad advice.

Maybe some women have more nerve endings, and therefore experience pain. Or maybe they are anticipating pain, and feel it as a psychosomatic kind of thing. Either way, it is a good idea to get the latch checked if you experience pain.

And *not* all lactation consultants are equal in knowledge or ability to listen and understand what the mother is describing. And that is regardless of education. It bothers me when a mom has a bad experience because of poor advice. I also agree that insisting there is no pain to someone feeling pain is counterproductive.

Someone should research that newborn nursing pain issue. Telling new moms that it sometimes happens and is normal is best for while we don't know the cause. But being able to remove it would be better for future moms.

Again, it's great to hear of moms who persevered and breastfed their children!

I hear "experts" and "Lactivisits" repeating the "Done correctly it doesn't hurt" trope over and over and over and over, and at the same time, I hear women saying "It did hurt for the first few weeks, and I had my latch checked and everything checked" over and over and over. I tend to believe the actual experiences of multiple women over the non-evidence-based claims of people who are trying to sell breastfeeding as an experience.

Maybe it is because "hurt" is such a subjective and qualitative word?

I don't think excruciating pain is normal in nursing - it usually is indicative of an issue.

Mild to moderate discomfort in the first few weeks as you get used to nursing is pretty common.

I think it might be a communication issue as much as anything else - one person says "hurt" and another interprets that as agony. FWIW, I am unlikely to complain of pain unless I am in agony; the word means different things to different people.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us. One is good and the other is evil. The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?). We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

Right. Pain is highly subjective. So we shouldn't go around dictating what's normal to other people.

I agree - but if you are discussing breastfeeding with a new mom, it is helpful to know if the pain is common early pain or agony.

I do think severe pain is not normal and should be checked out, and I think mild to moderate pain in the early days is pretty common. I see no reason both messages cannot be communicated - not just "all pain means something is wrong" or "all pain is normal".

There is a battle of two wolves inside us. One is good and the other is evil. The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?). We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

Right. Pain is highly subjective. So we shouldn't go around dictating what's normal to other people.

Exactly. And its not necessarily subjective in the way most people are going to now interpret. It's not "Some people have a higher pain tolerance." It's that there are different kinds of pain -- sharp, dull, deep, muscular, acute.....

So for example? In my (admittedly now vague) memory? Labor was really not that bad. Waves of cramps, NBD. At its peak painfulness, I would say that the toe-curling sharp shock of pain as my son latched on was *more* painful than my labor with him.

THat's not to say it was excruciating and made me quit. But since Conventional Wisdom is that labor=the most pain and breastfeeding=no pain unless you're Doing It Wrong -- the fact it was more painful than labor made me worry that something was wrong, when really? Nothing was wrong.

And I wish we'd just banish the word "normal" from our vocabulary when it comes to pregnancy, birth, and breastfeeding. Whether it's supposed to or not, I think the world "normal" communicates to women "there is one right, good way to do things and if your experience deviates from that way at all, there is something wrong, which means you are wrong!" I just see that word messing with people's heads a lot.

There is a range of experiences that women have, and we all want to understand how we fit within that range (and how we can make things better if we're struggling). So words that clarify and illuminate are helpful. Some experiences are common, some are rare. Some issues are indicative of serious underlying health issues, some are not. Some experiences challenge women in ways they weren't expecting. Pain can range from manageable to debilitating.

I find it helpful to share honestly and openly because it helps me see what the range of experience really is, find support and help when I need them, and appreciate what I've got when things are going well. But I try to always keep in mind that I can be an expert in my own experience without necessarily knowing jack about someone else's.

Living in Wisconsin with my partner of 20+ years and our DD(Born 10/09/08). Why CI Mama? Because I love contact improvisation!

At its peak painfulness, I would say that the toe-curling sharp shock of pain as my son latched on was *more* painful than my labor with him.

THat's not to say it was excruciating and made me quit. But since Conventional Wisdom is that labor=the most pain and breastfeeding=no pain unless you're Doing It Wrong -- the fact it was more painful than labor made me worry that something was wrong, when really? Nothing was wrong.

You don't think you are an exception, though?

I would expect that for the majority of the population, if breastfeeding is more painful than labour something is wrong.

Pain in BFing can be normal, and it can be a sign something is off; BFing can be hard and still normal, but it can be hard and a sign that something needs tweaking.

"BFing is hard and pain in BFing is normal" is no more helpful a message than "BFing is easy and pain means you are doing something wrong."

I get some people do not think all the lactivism messages are helpful, but it is possible for the message pendulum to swing too far the other way as well….

There is a battle of two wolves inside us. One is good and the other is evil. The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?). We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

This totally underscores my point. Why the focus on who is "normal" and who is "exceptional"? Wouldn't it be more productive to encourage each woman to speak openly and honestly from her own experience (which savinthy was doing very well, I thought) without having to label? Then the role of the advocate could be to say 1) here's the broad spectrum of experiences that women have and 2) if you're struggling, here are some things that have helped women who have also struggled. And just take the whole normal/exceptional judgment out of the equation.

Living in Wisconsin with my partner of 20+ years and our DD(Born 10/09/08). Why CI Mama? Because I love contact improvisation!

This totally underscores my point. Why the focus on who is "normal" and who is "exceptional"? Wouldn't it be more productive to encourage each woman to speak openly and honestly from her own experience (which savinthy was doing very well, I thought) without having to label? Then the role of the advocate could be to say 1) here's the broad spectrum of experiences that women have and 2) if you're struggling, here are some things that have helped women who have also struggled. And just take the whole normal/exceptional judgment out of the equation.

I like your post (I like Savinthy's too, I am just trying to sort things out).

I think the focus on what is normal and abnormal is to try and help women figure out when to seek help.

I do think it is possible for pain in breastfeeding to be both normal and abnormal. I think both messages are messages that should be given out.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us. One is good and the other is evil. The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?). We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

It is important to know what is average in terms of expectations for moms-to-be. If I based my decision on the story of my sister-in-law (it was excruciating, that's why I quit!), I would never have even *tried* breastfeeding. And pain should prompt a review by a more knowledgeable person, to rule out an actual problem!

Yes, let's find the language that encourages women seek help and get support, I am all for that! I just think we do it best if we avoid value-laden words like normal/exceptional, easy/hard, right/wrong. (As much as I hate the word "normal", I hate the word "abnormal" even more! Who wants to be "abnormal"?).

Living in Wisconsin with my partner of 20+ years and our DD(Born 10/09/08). Why CI Mama? Because I love contact improvisation!

I don't think knowledge of average is particularly important, when there's not guarantee a particular woman's experience will be average. I think it's more important to know the broad range of normal, so that when you have an experience that isn't average you don't quit thinking something's wrong but work through it knowing your experience is still inthe range of normal.

Yes, let's find the language that encourages women seek help and get support, I am all for that! I just think we do it best if we avoid value-laden words like normal/exceptional, easy/hard, right/wrong. (As much as I hate the word "normal", I hate the word "abnormal" even more! Who wants to be "abnormal"?).

Yes, let's find the language that encourages women seek help and get support, I am all for that! I just think we do it best if we avoid value-laden words like normal/exceptional, easy/hard, right/wrong. (As much as I hate the word "normal", I hate the word "abnormal" even more! Who wants to be "abnormal"?).

I don't think knowledge of average is particularly important, when there's not guarantee a particular woman's experience will be average. I think it's more important to know the broad range of normal, so that when you have an experience that isn't average you don't quit thinking something's wrong but work through it knowing your experience is still inthe range of normal.

What is average is extremely important for a first time mother to use to decide if she needs help! If she bases her decision on your story or what you have written here, she may continue with a poor latch, and that may impact her milk supply enough that she switches to formula. It's pretty obvious that pain means "get a more expert review" to determine if there is a solvable problem! Even if it doesn't affect supply or her decision to continue, why should she be in pain if it can be corrected? Just so you can have a fellow sufferer?

You seriously remind me of my sister-in-law, who has a "everyone should experience what I experience" attitude about pretty much everything.