Slashdot videos: Now with more Slashdot!

View

Discuss

Share

We've improved Slashdot's video section; now you can view our video interviews, product close-ups and site visits with all the usual Slashdot options to comment, share, etc. No more walled garden! It's a work in progress -- we hope you'll check it out (Learn more about the recent updates).

hypnosec writes "Google has indirectly walked right into one of the Middle East's most obstinate conflicts by labeling Palestine as an independent nation — wiping off the term 'Palestinian Territories' and replacing it with 'Palestine' in its localized search page. Google's move is more or less in line with the UN's October decision to name Palestine as a non-member observer state. The status given to Palestine will allow the state to join UN debates as well as global bodies such as the International Criminal Court, in theory at least. Up until May 1, anyone visiting http://www.google.ps were shown the phrase Palestinian Territories. This change is definitely not a huge one but, it has attracted criticism from politicians in Israel."

No, the US funnels far more overt support and resources to its bellicose little buddies. I don't see North Korea shifting the DMZ southward every year, leveling South Korean cities so North Korean settlers can move onto the land. China doesn't throw an international diplomatic hissy-fit at the mere suggestion that South Korea should be allowed to have its own autonomous government, much less one armed and hostile to the expansion of North Korean power.

No, the US funnels far more overt support and resources to its bellicose little buddies. I don't see North Korea shifting the DMZ southward every year, leveling South Korean cities so North Korean settlers can move onto the land. China doesn't throw an international diplomatic hissy-fit at the mere suggestion that South Korea should be allowed to have its own autonomous government, much less one armed and hostile to the expansion of North Korean power.

I don't see the South electing a government with the stated goal of expelling or murdering every resident of the North, flatly stating that any and all negotiations are purely strategic moves to delay fighting when deemed necessary, that the commonly accepted "two state solution" will never be allowed to happen, or refusing to acknowledge the historical incidents predating the formation of their Northern neighbor and otherwise implicitly believing that no Northern citizen has a right to live.

I get that Israel does some shady stuff, but its really important on an issue as touchy as this to try to be objective, and refrain from hyperbole. Neither side has been great about this, both sides have considerable grievances, but neither side is as bad as WW2 Germany or current North Korea.

My general point was that in discussions on Israel it seems like people take one side and dont want to admit that their side has done a lot to cause the problem. They will defend Israel, and ignore the questionable tactic of collective punishment or the ways in which Israel seems to try to provoke attacks. Or they will defend Palestine on the idea that we can ignore that Israel has been around for 70 years now, and we cant just pretend that the people there dont b

Yes, both sides want to kill each other, that's the problem in a nutshell.

---I am favorably biased towards Israel and with Israels wanting preconditions to peace. All the Arab countries have said, "We will wipe Israel off the map". Israel has said, if you want to be recognized, it is reciprocal. Recognize the State of Israel. We are here, we are not going away.

Instead you Arabs want the return of lands (some of which we are prepared to negotiate) and you will still persist in wanting our annihilation. The 1967 borders, (like the Mexico vs Texas and Arizona borders) is not on the

I don't see the South electing a government with the stated goal of expelling or murdering every resident of the North, flatly stating that any and all negotiations are purely strategic moves to delay fighting when deemed necessary, that the commonly accepted "two state solution" will never be allowed to happen, or refusing to acknowledge the historical incidents predating the formation of their Northern neighbor and otherwise implicitly believing that no Northern citizen has a right to live.

Yeah, I don't like the Likud Charter either:

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting....The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

Huh? Where'd that come from? I'm perfectly fine with China not trampling in to directly help North Korea wage hostilities against the South; I'm happy with South Korea being able to defend its border against aggression. Likewise, I'd be fine with Israel not receiving massive support from its sugar daddy to unilaterally steamroll over Palestine; I'd be fine with Palestine having a bit more firepower to fight back wherever Israel pushes its borders to steal more land/resources.

Officially declared "we annex this territory"? Probably not since '73. But settlements, seizing water sources, tearing down olive orchards, building apartheid walls, changing the real situation on the ground: daily. I'm less concerned by "official" territorial boundaries (imaginary lines on a map), than the physical reality "on the ground." Imaginary lines on a map can be re-drawn at any time, and don't hurt anyone; but when people are expelled from their homes, lose access to vital resources, and are replaced by new "innocent civilian" settlers, the real harm is done (and far harder to justly reverse).

What the heck are you talking about? Best Korea already owns the universe. Except for Greenland. So, obviously, the next step is for Robo-Rodman to conquer Greenland --- no matter what the Buddhist Illuminati try to pull. With the the Wal*Mart pod-people tied up supplying black helicopters to the Federal Reserve, the hyperintelligent Mars rovers won't stand a chance against the Lizard People of New Brunswick. Vote Ron Paul!

And why would the Palestinians need Israel approval when Israel didn't need to ask permission to the Palestinians to exist?The whole "negotiated solution" is propaganda for Israel to keep the Palestinians stateless forever, and continue the colonization. The longer they wait, the larger their state will be.

The British had notified the U.N. of their intent to terminate the mandate not later than 1 August 1948,[47][48] However, early in 1948, the United Kingdom announced its firm intention to end its mandate in Palestine on 14 May. In response, President Harry S. Truman made a statement on 25 March proposing UN trusteeship rather than partition, stating that "unfortunately, it has become clear that the partition plan cannot be carried out at this tim

Jews have been living continuously in the region of Palestine for over 3000 years (the Arabs came later, and invaded around 1400 years ago).

Not going to take sides here, since both sides are reprehensible, and deserve very little sympathy at this point. I take that back, the normal people in both Israel and Palestine deserve it, the bellicose asshats in their governments and outspoken religious authorities deserve none whatsoever. That said; your statement is a bit wonky. Yes, modern Arabs, and later Muslims, were there later than Jews, but this is a bit false, since the root ethnicities and cultures that spawned both were there longer than either. Further "we were there first" is about as idiotic as one can get. Should the Native American tribes be allowed to partition American cities, restrict their ability to food and medicine, and generally treat them all like terrorists, criminals, and subhumans by default? They were here first, after all. Actually Siberians and the Japanese should be allowed to, since their genetic stock is more closely related to the original settlers of North America than most people here now.

No. Both people have to coexist, whether they like it or not. If they can't, I don't care, someone should come in and FORCE them to. And anyone who supports the hostilities of either faction should have as serious sanctions as someone supporting any other terrorist aggressor state, since they really don't hold a moral high ground on any issue anymore. They both are bad guys. No excuse changes this fact. Picking sides is nonsensical, its like arguing over who was less evil, Stalin or Mao.

Ah, I see you are repeating the propaganda approach without actually understanding the history of the region with regard to International Law.

Ah, I see you're spamming the "legal case for Israel" propaganda. Problem is, reality has a well-known anti-Zionist bias, and Israel has zero legal justification for it's formation or land grabs.

First, it was formed by a bunch of immigrants [wikipedia.org] stealing land from the people already living there. Jews were a tiny minority - less than 10% of the population - in 1900. The Zionists "declaring independence" in 1948 were almost entirely just off the boat or first generation immigrants.

So, it's no different from Manifest Destiny: a sense of entitlement to other people's land.

The Israelis have always offered an Arab Palestinian State

That's always been slight-of-hand. Israel wants land, and peace gets in the way of their land-grabbing.

and in fact, the Arabs were offered international recognition of one in 1948 by the United Nations but they refused

And rightly so. The British Mandate of Palestine was going to give 56% of the land to 31% of the population, almost all of whom were immigrants. It's like if the minority Cuban immigrant population of Florida up and laid claim to most of the state - think the rest of the population might reject such a proposal?

The problem the Israelis have with the moves for Palestinian Statehood through the United Nations is *not* the creation of a Palestinian State. It is bypassing negotiations with the Israelis and bypassing mutual agreement and a *permanent* peace treaty

When did Zionists negotiate with Palestinians on the formation of Israel?

Another poster already called you out for that nonsense, but such hypocrisy deserves to be highlighted again.

for those of you who are also fooled by the falsehood that Israel is 'the last European colonial state' you may want to ponder the fact that Jews have been living continuously in the region of Palestine for over 3000 years

Ah, the "continuing presence" propaganda. Again. So if the surrounding Arab nations were to militarily wipe Israel off the map - something you guys have been yelling about for decades - to form an independent Palestinian state, you'd be just fine with it it, right? Because Palestinians have had a "continuing presence" in the area? Like most Zionist propaganda, this talking point doesn't stand up to two seconds of scrutiny.

Please also note that the Arabs and Muslims already have 56 large and mostly uncrowded countries.

Did the fact that sub-Saharan African countries were majority-black mean Apartheid was okay? Two seconds of scrutiny...

Israel is by no means perfect, but it does have a very good case under international law for doing what it is doing

You mean the international law that has always held that ALL the occupied territories of the West Bank and East Jerusalem have always been illegal and should be returned to the Palestinians? That international law?

Once you start learning the historical facts you kinda develop a completely different perspective on the issue.

It also works in reverse, why don't the Palestinians negotiate for a settlement (and the answer I already gave: the Qur'an and hadiths command they commit genocide, but I guess you have a poor or no understanding of Islamic scripture, which is why you point the finger of blame in the wrong direction). In 1948 the UN offered two states, Israel accepted and the Arabs refused (believing their genocidal plan would be successful). The Israelis were prepared to negotiate, and have been prepared ever since to negotiate provided there are *no preconditions* (otherwise, what is the point of negotiating, yeah?).

Complete ill informed nonsense. The official Palestinian position is that they will negotiate on two fairly innocuous conditions. 1) That Israel ceases the construction of illegal settlements on its land. 2) That the starting point for negotiations for a two state solution be based on the pre-1967 borders. The latter point was accepted by the United Nations in Resolution 58/292 (Israel and the United States were the only two major nations to vote against it, joined by four small island nations). The former

Sorry asshat but the rules are in our times. Not some bullshit date thousands of years because it favours your personal desires today. Pretty blow that religious bullshit out of your ass before ever contemplating using it to kill people or justify theft of their property. It has always been bullshit and will always be bullshit. Whether it was missionaries to the Americas, Salem witch trials, the inquisition, the crusades, the Mughals in India etc. etc. etc. It has always been exactly the same bullshit, a handful of psychopaths at the top hiding behind religion to feed their own personal ego and lusts whilst driving on the ignorant religious masses to fight and die for them.

Palestinian people legally owned most of the land in Israel. A bunch of Palestinian jews together with illegal immigrants initiated a terrorist war to steal those properties and expended the Israeli state from their. The US propped it up because the surrounding Arabic states where leaning towards the Soviet Union. You could bet if the US politicians at the time had known what a huge corrupt pain in the ass the Israeli government and the Mosad would become they would never have done so.

They are called property titles. Did they exist abso-fucking-lutely and there is not place on this planet that anyone can say they own their own home and prevent someone from simply moving in and taking over with out some form of property. So ESAD with your pathetic lies and propaganda and somehow trying to twist religious or nationalistic 'ownership' as taking precedence of straight up normal recognised personal property ownership. In point of fact the cheating Israeli government passed laws to seize unoc

I agree with your statements. Sorry if I was unclear. The grandparent was oblique so I was less oblique. Israel actions are much much more moral than those of the Islamist political class (who dominate the Palestinian people).

Hard to tell exactly what China's politburo will do (ever since Mao died, no one's been answering calls on my special red telephone line to Beijing), but I'm not so sure they'd really want NK expanding like that either. China doesn't want US military bases nestled right up against their border (so they're alright with maintaining NK as a big buffer region), but they aren't exactly thrilled about having a big mass of desperate starving poor people about to spill over the border either (China's not particular

the rothschild family and the queen of england are just trying to use their proxies (including google) to spark conflict in the middle east to trigger world war 3, collapse the US dollar and invoke the new world order... in preparation for the nazis to return from the dark side of the moon with their army of rock spiders

I was so pleased when the UN finally told the US and Israel what they thought of the nice little Ghetto Israel had created for the Palestinians to slowly be eradicated in.

Frankly, I agree with Sir Gerald Kaufman of the UK in his views that Israel is no better than certain German Fascists in their treatment of the Palestinians.

“The current Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians,” Sir Gerald Kaufman, a veteran MP of the governing Labour Party and a long-time critic of Israel, said Thursday in parliament.

And before some butt-hurt heeb starts pulling out his "you disagree with Israel, you therefor are an anti-semite" card...Sir Gerald Kaufman is himself a Jew.

I hope that someday more land can be given to Palestine and both sides can learn to live in peace -- but considering this dispute seems driven by ultra-conservative religious wing-nuts on all sides, I don't think that will happen without total annihilation of the region.

Frankly, I agree with Sir Gerald Kaufman of the UK in his views that Israel is no better than certain German Fascists in their treatment of the Palestinians.

I don't recall German Jews ever stating they wanted to march every German into the Rhine (Ya, I know that quote doesn't come from a Palestinian, but the sentiment does and it predates the formation of Israel), so I really don't see how the comparison is valid.

“The current Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians,

Actually their most commonly cited reason for "murdering the Palestinians" is something along the lines of "INCOMING ROCKET!" I really don't ever hear the Holocaust being brought up except to compare Israeli Jews to the Nazis.

And before some butt-hurt heeb starts pulling out his "you disagree with Israel, you therefor are an anti-semite" card...
Sir Gerald Kaufman is himself a Jew.

Actually their most commonly cited reason for "murdering the Palestinians" is something along the lines of "INCOMING ROCKET!"

You mean this [wikimedia.org] rocket right here? And the excuse for Israel violating ceasefires and killing hundreds of Palestinians a la Cast Lead?

More problems for tired Zionist apologia: Israel's justification for starting the 1967 war was the Egyptian blockade of the Straits of Tiran, one of many trade routes to Israel. But that means that Palestinian attacks in response to the total blockade of Gaza are perfectly justified by Israeli rules.

The Palestinians have been rejecting a two-state solution for more than 80 years.

Repeating a big lie doesn't make it true, it just makes you a bigger liar. The Palestinians are entitled to all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, but they've been willing to make concessions on that in order to get a state of their own. But Israel keeps making more and more draconian demands, or pulls out of negotiations.

Because Israel isn't interested in peace. It's interested in land, and waiting out the clock until it becomes a matter of taking land from someone's great-great grandchild to give to someone else's great-great grandchild.

The "Self-Hating Jew" myth is just a version of the No True Scotsman [wikipedia.org] fallacy, weasel words to try to avoid the truth that Jewish != Zionist and to try to exclude anybody who disagrees with you from the discussion.

It would really lend to your credibility if you recognized at all the the Palestinians want to completely destroy Israel.

Tautology with no basis in reality. But even if it were true, that's batshit irrelevant to Palestinian right to self-determination, and their right to all of the land seized in the 1967 war started by Israel.

Lets see if your argument passes the substitution test...
DNA tests confirm that Chinese and Africans are both the same people. Either they both have an ancestral claim to the land or neither one does.

This just might be the least intelligent comment of all time! That's it, game's over; we can stop acting dumb now, the prize has been taken.

I looked up "Palestine" on Google Maps and still didn't see any of the boundaries determined. Could Google figure that one out for us too? I'm sure there's got to be an algorithm for that. (And before anybody says anything, yes, the word "algorithm" is derived from Arabic, so it might be biased.)

You mean, the "wait out the clock" game that has been the Zionist goal since they first started to steal land from Palestinians in the 30's. Which is also rich, coming from the nation still pursuing Nazi war criminals and stolen assets from the 30's. If human beings lived 500 years Israel would still be hunting those people and assets down in the year 2400 A.D. But land stolen in an aggressive war of choice in 1967? 46 years is toooo loooong ago to worry about!

You do know that nations existed before the UN came along too, right?

You know that's an irrelevant comparison, right? The is no equivalence for Israel, where a nation is carved out of existing land and people for the benefit of an immigrant population. There was no U.N. recognizing American statehood in the 1600's at the expense of Native Americans.

Besides that, there have been Jews there continuously for thousands of years, and several Jewish states on that land.

Ah, the "continuous presence" canard. Problem: at 1900, Jews made up less than 10% [wikipedia.org] of the population of Palestine. The "declaration of independence" was a land grab from a bunch of European immigrants no better than Manifest Destiny.

Second problem: if the surrounding Arab nations were to militarily "wipe Israel off the map", you'd have to be okay with that, because of a "continuing Palestinian presence" in the area.

Israel did not arise from a UN mandate, they won statehood by fighting a war of independence.

The Zionist movement declared itself to be an independent nation, that declaration triggered the 1948 war with neighboring states, Israel won. About a year after the war the UN had no real choice other than to recognize them as a state, (they had a functioning government and well defined borders). Before Israel's declaration of independence the league of nations (UN) had planned to partition the territories, the

Will you? Jews were less than 10% of the area population in 1900. When Zionists "declared independence" they were only 31% of the population, the vast majority just off the boat or first-generation. When they started the 1967 war and illegally seized the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, they settled the stolen land with....more immigrants.

You didn't bother to look at the link. Jews were a tiny minority in Palestine before European Jews started immigrating to the area around 1900, with a spike around WWII for obvious reasons. There is no legal or moral justification for immigrants carving a state out of the native population without the consent of said population. Period.

Ha ha, just as well. I can imagine the poor guy.... when I was a kid a decade or so ago I was a devmin for a small UN site and, uh "accidentally" filed the West Bank and Gaza under Israel in the database hierarchy.

Fortunately my client at the World Bank with a bit more knowledge of world events that I received from US HS History set me straight before we pushed it to production.

But I suppose this balances it all out then!

Still, it's amazing how much trouble "kids these days" can get into for doing the same

It is about time! And with respect to any Israelis or Jews who might be offended by Google's actions today. I have just one thing to say to you: fuck you.

Google is responding to the reality of the situation on the ground today. The Palestinians people lived in a place called in English Palestine by everyone else including the Jews until 1948 when Israel was created. While it is true that they and other Arab neighbors did cause some problems by deciding not to bow to the reality of the political situation then and agree with the two-state solution created by the UN back then and to fight the Jews who through the UN legally stole half of Palestine from the Palestinians the fact of the matter is that there is a nation that is bottled up within the borders of the current state of Israel that do not want to be a part of Israel and would like some of the land back that the Israelis stole from them in 1967 not so fair and square.

Israel as it currently exists as a Jewish state is doomed because of the unsustainable situation it is in. The writing has been on the wall for a long time now. The nation is quickly losing the moral capital the Holocaust granted it by tacitly creating ghettos for the Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza, regularly depriving these people of commerce, jobs, food, water, and electricity, and then expecting that the people they victimize will simply put up with it. Google's actions today are just another nail in the coffin of the Jewish state.

You need to read some history if that's what you think. Mark twain's trip is a particularly good account, the entire region was composed of malaria ridden swampland and ghost towns with the occasional temporary habitation by desert nomads. Multiple prominent leaders of the "palestinians" have admitted that the existence of any "palestinian" people is a complete and utter myth, invented solely as a political tool and populated by illegal immigrants from the surrounding arab nations. There are written account

Mark twain's trip is a particularly good account, the entire region was composed of malaria ridden swampland and ghost towns with the occasional temporary habitation by desert nomads. Multiple prominent leaders of the "palestinians" have admitted that the existence of any "palestinian" people is a complete and utter myth, invented solely as a political tool and populated by illegal immigrants from the surrounding arab nations.

Riiiight. And I bet you switch from that denial of Palestinian history to the "co

While it is true that they and other Arab neighbors did cause some problems by deciding not to bow to the reality of the political situation then and agree with the two-state solution created by the UN back then

The "reality of the situation" is that the proposal was to give 56% of the land to 31% of the population. And of that 31%, the vast majority were just off the boat from Europe. Of course the natives rejected such a deal, you would too.

No, that would be Hamas. Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel.

Or do they not count, because they actually are systematically wiping Palestine off the map, instead of just wanting it?

There seems to be some defect in your understanding of genocide as the number of Palestinian Arabs has long been increasing. You also don't give credit where credit is due. The brother Arabs of the Palestinian Arabs told them to leave their homes and villages while they slaughtered the Jews in 1948. It didn't turn out that way, and now the other Arabs treat the Palestinian Arabs like scum.

No, that would be Hamas. Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel.

And the Likud charter lays claim to the occupied territories and denies any Palestinian state. Funny how the Zionist apologists never talk about that. Or the inconvenient fact that Hamas was created by Israel to undermine Fatah.

There seems to be some defect in your understanding of genocide as the number of Palestinian Arabs has long been increasing.

There seems to be some willful obtuseness in your comment, as you're swapping out the elimination of a country with the elimination of a people.

If you're outraged about the use of chemicals against "civilians," do you have any to spare?

Depends, do you have any sense of proportion? [photobucket.com] How about when it's Israel violating the cease fire and then killing hundreds of Palestinians a la Cast Lead? How about the fact that even the IDF admits that the rockets are a psychological and not a military threat? Or the fact that an Israeli is more likely to be killed in a car accident with a bus - not car accidents overall but car accidents with buses - than by a Palestinian?

It can't last forever since one of Hamas's basic goals is to destroy Israel.

Or the inconvenient fact that Hamas was created by Israel to undermine Fatah.

I think you'll find the truly inconvenient fact to be that your claim is wrong, a misreading of the facts. The facts are more subtle, and it is more a study in the law of unintended consequences. And please don't bother throwing this back at me from the article below since it will show you apparently either didn't read the article, comprehend the article, or both: ""Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. " That

Don't you mean occupy? Or are you admitting that Israel is taking land by force?

I have no problem with Israel occupying Palestinian territories from which rockets are fired. They can do for as long as it takes for the attacks to stop as far as I am concerned. But its not their land to settle.

The Sinai was returned to Egypt as a condition of a peace treaty. And the Golan Heights will be returned to Syria based on the same.

(Reuters) - The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas rejected on Monday criticism by al Qaeda's second-in-command and said it was still committed to Israel's destruction despite a power-sharing deal with the Fatah faction.

"We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine," Hamas said in a statement, in a clear reference to Israel as well as to the occupied West Bank. . . more [reuters.com]

If they don't like what you've done, you've probably done the right thing.

The only problem with that theory is that most Israelis can't wait to revoke Israeli-Arabs citizenships, voting rights and social security benefits on the grounds of dual nationality or as supporters \ members of an enemy state.

What people don't realize is that Israel is still essentially a socialist state. While not quite the kibbutz some folks imagine it to be, it's still impossible to live here on a median income without the tax breaks and heavy subsidies citizens are provided with. And, since almost everything (especially utilities like water and electricity) is government owned or managed, the median wages have adjusted to just barely cover housing and food. e.g. Most folks don't even handle their pension plan since the law forces the employers to manage that for the employees along with filing their income taxes.

Right now, 30% of Israeli universities students are Palestinians who receive the usual 50% student subsidies. Then, there's child support, free health care, almost free medication, almost free education from ages 3-18... That's 20% of the population suddenly finding themselves one day without the means to support their families, possibly themselves and without any meaningful savings since they never made enough money in the first place.

But hey, since us Israelis don't like it, it's probably a good idea...

But hey, since us Israelis don't like it, it's probably a good idea...

Obvious context was Israeli policies and aggression towards the native population. That Israel has some great schools and water management policies doesn't have much to do with their practice of Apartheid.

Among 251,800 students in 2010/11 at academic institutions, 11% (27,400) were Arabs, constituting 13.6% of the students in bachelor's programs at universities and 7.7% of the university students studying for a master's degree.

Another example:

What people don't realize is that Israel is still essentially a socialist state.

Israel left behind its socialists beginnings long ago, around the time of Bibi's first term in 1996.

Third one:

And, since almost everything (especially utilities like water and electricity) is government owned or managed,

Let me FTFY:

Outside of utilities like water and electricity as well as airports which are publicly owned like in many other countries, Israel is very much a free market economy with a large number of private enterprises including a healthy number of technological startups I might add.

Fourth one:

Most folks don't even handle their pension plan since the law forces the employers to manage that for the employees along with filing their income taxes.

Gosh that sounds eerily like the bastion of Marxism, the ol' USA, where GM along with all other big companies manages (or at least used to manage before many of them went bankrupt) its employee retirement funds.

Today, a sizable section of the European left has been reluctant to take a clear stand when anti-Zionism spills over into anti-Semitism. Beginning in the 1990s, many on the European left began to view the growing Muslim minorities in their countries as a new proletariat and the Palestinian cause as a recruiting mechanism. The issue of Palestine was particularly seductive for the children of immigrants, marooned between identities.

Capitalism was depicted as undermining a perfect Islamic society while cultural imperialism corrupted Islam. The tactic has a distinguished revolutionary pedigree. Indeed, the cry, “Long live Soviet power, long live the Shariah,” was heard in Central Asia during the 1920s after Lenin tried to cultivate Muslim nationalists in the Soviet East once his attempt to spread revolution to Europe had failed. But the question remains: why do today’s European socialists identify with Islamists whose worldview is light-years removed from their own? . . . more [nytimes.com]

The view of the Times is too timid - anti-Semitism is becoming a disease of the left.

There's blame on all sides. The Palestinians and Israelis both act like a bunch of violent monsters. I don't even really care that Israel is matching their butchery. That is, after all, how wars are won, and I'm not directly effected. It's not something that I like my government to be apart of, and I especially hate it when Israel tries to present itself the beacon of morality in the region, and pretend that they are any more dignified than the Muslims. The entire region is full of greedy, hateful thugs and

The Palestinians and Israelis both act like a bunch of violent monsters

Were Native Americans fighting dispossession and Apartheid from European immigrants a "bunch of violent monsters", or were they legitimately pissed that their land was being stolen and their culture destroyed?

Their anger was legitimate, as is Israel's and Palestine's perhaps. This is a very good analogy, as the Europeans and American's were a bunch of monsters, but the natives weren't a band of happy-go-lucky people living in harmony with the land either. They liked to scalp innocents in their bloodlust just as much as Whites' liked to systematically starve them and infect them with disease. Of course, at the time, no one paid attention to all the treaties the US broke to exterminate them, and many people got ri

#1: Poor people are usually religiously backward. Israel has kept Palestine poor. If Palestinians were free to trade, and grew wealthier, they might become a bit more progressive.

#2: Even if Palestinians are backward hicks, that doesn't justify Israel's treatment of them. A Palestinian state may not be an ideal solution, if it has a high chance of turning into a theocracy, but is there any other way of preventing Israel from further mistreating them?

Yup, having cruel, warmongering neighbors who like to murder children and indiscriminately level the shanty-infested `cities' tend to make people a bit resentful. That applies to both sides of this conflict.

Also, do you keep this kopipe in a text file to post quickly? Also, are you in that JIDF program where they pay people to shitpost on websites with pro-Israel propoganda? I'm not accusing you, It's just the feeling that I'm getting.

Did you miss the news that it took the Israeli Supreme Court to (finally) protect female Jews from being harassed or arrested at the Western Wall [salon.com] by the Ultra Orthodox? How about opinion surveys of Americans on how it's acceptable to drone bomb the shit out of other countries?

Beam, motes. And if you want to bitch about the problems of fundamentalist islam, start with the nearest mirror, as it's usually:

1) In response to western imperialism. Yeah, you're pissed about the 911 attacks that killed 3,000. They're kinda pissed about American sanctions that killed 500,000 children in Iraq. And your overthrowing their secular democracy in Iran to be replaced by a brutal dictatorship from the Shah.

2) Financed by client states like Saudi Arabia. You know, where the hijackers were from, but was never on our blow-shit-up list. Huh.

3) Financed and supported by the CIA. The Mujahideen in Afghanistan, rebels in Libya and now Syria, and MEK in Iraq. Then there was that triffle of "buying" the services of young boys in Afghanistan to be raped by tribal warlords.

It demonstrates conclusively that the Palestinian nationhood argument is the real strategic deception â" one geared to set up the destruction of Israel.

Bullshit. The entirety of Israel is built on land stolen from the native population. First in 1948, when a bunch of immigrants from Europe decided they had a greater claim than those who had lived there for thousands of years. And then in 1967, when they started a war of territory expansion yet claimed to be the victims.

ALL of the occupied territories ALL of the settlements and ALL of East Jerusalem are illegal.

Am I supposed to believe that these poll results distinguish Palestine or Muslims from the rest of humanity negatively somehow?

Let me tell you, being transgendered, from over here all the Abrahamaic religions look pretty much the same and pretty much all equally morally bankrupt. Those survey results don't look much different from what I'd expect one would obtain by interviewing local Christians around here. Including things you've identified to attempt to make Islam look regressive by way of being misogynist. Christians around here believe the same things, although they have different clothing than hajibs they believe superstitious things about.

Misogyny runs rampant in Abrahamaic religions. Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam just have different ways of expressing it. At least the one thing all three can agree on is that, drawing from the ancient Greek myth, that it must be a woman who's responsible for all the evils of the world.

Guess what. Most of the world, at different times, has been ruled by different people. What do you think the native inhabitants of this continent [The Americas] might think about their Christian conquerors? At least, the ones that are left to speak.

I'm going to get modded flamebait for this, but I honestly believe it, and I've got the karma to burn. Israel couldn't have done better to take plays out of feminism's playbook. They're always history's perpetual victims. They're always morally perfect. It's all completely bullshit. It's a passive-aggressive appeal to white, male, and German guilt.

Israel has no right to exist. Yes, what happened during the holocaust was terrible, but the answer to evil isn't more evil.