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Even for Dual Screens, Cresselia doesn't need speed. Espeon needs speed because she has NO bulk. Xatu has decent bulk, but not that good, and he has weaknesses so he needs speed. Cresselia on the other hand, already has good bulk, so she can set up screens before being KO'd unless the opponent brings in Scizor or Tyranitar or something of the sorts.

I get your point and you're probably right. Smogon still says Cress needs 68 EVs in Speed, though.

Speaking of Bronzong, wouldn't be the specially defensive variant an okay counter to special attacker Lando-I?

Keldeo is a force to be reckoned with, but is definitely not ban worthy. Sure Hydro Pump in rain sweeps unprepared teams, but most team have the pony covered. Specially Defensive Celebi is everywhere in the current Meta, CM latias gets a free set up once locked into its STAB's, most Dragons, and Gastrodon walls pretty much every set, really only fearing Secret Sword. In Sand, TTar handles Latias, but most Celebi's run Baton Pass to get past Ttar. TTar, also doesn't like switching into Gastrodon thanks to scald burn. Checking Keldeo isn't that hard. Breloom can revenge with mach punch, Dragons can set up once it is locked, Rotom-w can work nicely, Jolteon stomps non-scarfed ones, scarf Thundy-T beats it, the list goes on and on. In short, Keldeo isn't suspect worthy.

OK, real post time. Keldeo has the offensive power and spped to demolish most common OU threats, including our earlier discussed Lando-I. Counter right there. But anyway, Keldeo can OHKO major threats easy as a CM/SubCM set, but it needs scarf to kill things such as Gengar, Duggy and Stamie (if it runs HP Ghost). There are very few answers to Keldeo in OU. Salamence? DNite? OHKO'd by HP Ice (afetr SR in DNite's case). So, maybe Keldeo does need to be banned. It has some kickass power, but there are a few solid counter by the name of sun, Chloro Vensaur and- Oh. That's it. So Keldeo is very good, however, some of the power it needs is missing, so some attacks fall agonisingly short of OHKOing. and also suffers from 1 Hiden Power Syndrome (just made that up). So maybe no ban for now....

Oh Keldeo. For me, I don't hate you so much like your`Big Bro Terrakion.

Anyway the conditions. If:

A specs Keldeo is weakened by 50% or more and paralysed - Use a fast sweeper like (I hate facing him in battle) Latios with Psyshock [Is Psychic Viable?], any electric move (Make sure it not sunny), or any of his Dragon moves (Draco Meteor, is a risky choice of either being a prey to the upcoming revenge killer, or bot being able to finish off the last pokemon despite being super effective). Ferrothorn [for me, he IS THE B*TCH I hate with a passion], if locked into any move [Excluding Secret Sword. Can it at least leave one secret sword on full health? I dunno. From knowledge, only the super effective banded/specs ones can OHKO it]. Blissey and chansey too [watch out for Krldeo's signature move]

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Keldeo is a force to be reckoned with, but is definitely not ban worthy. Sure Hydro Pump in rain sweeps unprepared teams, but most team have the pony covered. Specially Defensive Celebi is everywhere in the current Meta

Specially Defensive Celebi can definetly be a good answer to most Keldeo. The problem is people saw that it was a problem not only to Keldeo, but to the previously discussed Landorus-I aswell; because of this Expert Belt HP Bug Keldeo has shown itself to be a very dangerous lure, capable of dealing (66.34% - 78.22%) to 252 HP / 236 SpD Celebi, meaning if Celebi has taken previous damage and after switching into rocks, it could very well be KO'd by 4x Super Effective HP Bug, then freeing up a Landorus-I sweep.

Originally Posted by Jazz Hands

Keldeo is good. End of post Spoiler:- Click for funny gif:

OK, real post time. Keldeo has the offensive power and spped to demolish most common OU threats, including our earlier discussed Lando-I. Counter right there. But anyway, Keldeo can OHKO major threats easy as a CM/SubCM set, but it needs scarf to kill things such as Gengar, Duggy and Stamie (if it runs HP Ghost). There are very few answers to Keldeo in OU. Salamence? DNite? OHKO'd by HP Ice (afetr SR in DNite's case). So, maybe Keldeo does need to be banned. It has some kickass power, but there are a few solid counter by the name of sun, Chloro Vensaur and- Oh. That's it. So Keldeo is very good, however, some of the power it needs is missing, so some attacks fall agonisingly short of OHKOing. and also suffers from 1 Hiden Power Syndrome (just made that up). So maybe no ban for now....

I definetly agree with this post, I also like the 1 Hidden Power Syndrome term, needs to be added to the competitive dictionary

Originally Posted by jireh the provider

Oh Keldeo. For me, I don't hate you so much like your`Big Bro Terrakion.

Anyway the conditions. If:

A specs Keldeo is weakened by 50% or more and paralysed - Use a fast sweeper like (I hate facing him in battle) Latios with Psyshock [Is Psychic Viable?], any electric move (Make sure it not sunny), or any of his Dragon moves (Draco Meteor, is a risky choice of either being a prey to the upcoming revenge killer, or bot being able to finish off the last pokemon despite being super effective). Ferrothorn [for me, he IS THE B*TCH I hate with a passion], if locked into any move [Excluding Secret Sword. Can it at least leave one secret sword on full health? I dunno. From knowledge, only the super effective banded/specs ones can OHKO it]. Blissey and chansey too [watch out for Krldeo's signature move]

Not really sure what you're getting at here, that's a very specific situation in a paralyzed 50% health Keldeo.

But what really makes manaphy an Uber pokemon aside from the said Hydration ability? I mean, in gen 4's case, only Kyogre has drizzle: which makes manaphy ubers BEFORE POLITOED GETS AHOLD OF DRIZZLE IN GEN 5.

I mean, why is not with the ranks of celebi and Jirachi in OU? In Gen 5, he would have been banned to ubers obviously. But an Uber before Politoed has drizzle a generation ago? That is so odd. I see manaphy as a pokemon not really hanging with the big guys of Ubers

Manaphy, while having a shallow and predictable movepool, practically destroyed everything in Gen IV OU once it set up Tail Glow. There weren't as many grass-types in Gen IV OU than in Gen V, so there was no Ferrothorn or Chlorophyll Vensaur to contend with. Additionally, there weren't as many fast resists because Garchomp, Salamence and the Lati twins got banned.

IMO the pony isn't very broken. Sure, HP Bug is devastating to Celebi, one of its best counters, but that means Keldeo will have trouble against Jellicent, dragons, Starmie and Gengar. It's not the fastest Pokemon either. So no ban plz.

Keldeo can be ridiculously hard to bring down if it's the SubCM variant but IMO it doesn't belong in Uber. Amoonguss and Celebi stop Keldeo cold and it can't have both Hidden Power Ghost and Hidden Power Ice(why not Ice Beam, GameFreak?) at the same time (oh and HP Ghost from Scarf Keldeo does about 30% to Jellicent).

IMO the pony isn't very broken. Sure, HP Bug is devastating to Celebi, one of its best counters, but that means Keldeo will have trouble against Jellicent, dragons, Starmie and Gengar. It's not the fastest Pokemon either. So no ban plz.

HP Syndrome...

That'show I feel about keld. It's one poke that relies heavily on its teammates to remove its threats.

What makes keld so threatening tho is essentially hydro pump. Keldeo's 129 base special attack is the second highest among all water pokemon and is resisted by 3 types: grass, water, and dragon. In my opinion, keldeo makes it somewhat hard to run offense because of that.

idk why Keldeo is up there. Keldeo is a strong nuke with a inefficient and overall weak movepool. It's only strong moves are its STABs, and that's it. It's coverage moves aren't strong enough to safely eliminate pokemon that resist the Water/Fight STAB, such as Jellicent and Celebi.

As for Landorus...
Pretty much a gamble when dealing with him. Switch out, Rock Polish. Stay in, get raped. This thread really has covered all the points that could be covered about it. Getting any sort of advantageous match-up against it definitely involves extremely risky prediction (double switches potentially).

idk why Keldeo is up there. Keldeo is a strong nuke with a inefficient and overall weak movepool. It's only strong moves are its STABs, and that's it. It's coverage moves aren't strong enough to safely eliminate pokemon that resist the Water/Fight STAB, such as Jellicent and Celebi.

Specially defensive Jellicent needs to be at full health to be able to take the 2HKO from HP Ghost/Dark after Stealth Rock, and meanwhile it's doing almost nothing back. Celebi gets 2HKOd after Stealth Rock about 26% of the time from full health, so even then it's a gamble. Not to mention the Expert Belt set can take specially defensive Celebi's Giga Drain with health to spare, meanwhile 2HKOing with HP Bug. Specs Keldeo has a shot at 2HKOing literally all of OU between Hydro Pump / Secret Sword / HP Ghost in Rain with Stealth Rock.

Specially defensive Jellicent needs to be at full health to be able to take the 2HKO from HP Ghost/Dark after Stealth Rock, and meanwhile it's doing almost nothing back. Celebi gets 2HKOd after Stealth Rock about 26% of the time from full health, so even then it's a gamble. Not to mention the Expert Belt set can take specially defensive Celebi's Giga Drain with health to spare, meanwhile 2HKOing with HP Bug. Specs Keldeo has a shot at 2HKOing literally all of OU between Hydro Pump / Secret Sword / HP Ghost in Rain with Stealth Rock.

This is assuming a Modest Keldeo with choice specs, and it's not even a guaranteed 2HKO after stealth rock. Jellicent can then recover stall, and proceed to do his usual work burning and poisoning stuff. Scarf/Life Orb Keldeos aren't even guaranteed 3HKOs, meaning as long as Jellicent isn't already 2/3 dead, it will be forcing a switch. Keldeo also has its fair share of checks. Standard Starmie can come in, outspeed, and OHKO with Psychic/Psyshock, for example. Keldeo is heavily reliant on whatever coverage move it chooses to run. If it runs HP Bug for Celebi, Jellicent will wall it, not to mention mons such as Dragonite, Salamence, etc, which can come in and proceed to set up a DD. If it runs HP Ghost, it grants some great coverage, although it misses out on KO'ing mons such as Celebi, Jellicent (again), and bulkier Starmie. HP Electric covers some similar threats to ghost, and can one-shot Gyarados. HP Ice can be used for Dragons, but ding-dong, Jellicent. Icy wind is preferred in situations where a faster/scarfed dragon expects to come in on a resisted hit, only to be left at -1 speed, and they now risk being KO'ed.

All in all, Keldeo does offer great sweeping potential with a powerful rain boosted Hydro Pump, and can grab some surprise KO's with the appropriate hidden power. However, I don't believe it to be broken, as it has some reasonable checks, and it is walled depending on which non-STAB move it chooses to run.

This is assuming a Modest Keldeo with choice specs, and it's not even a guaranteed 2HKO after stealth rock. Jellicent can then recover stall, and proceed to do his usual work burning and poisoning stuff.

You realize that in that situation, Jellicent only has a 14% chance of switching in on HP Ghost after Stealth Rock and actually surviving the second one? So no, Jellicent does not just Recover stall and go about his "usual work." At least, not most of the time. I don't think you're looking at this realistically. You're assuming that Jellicent will get in for free somehow and Keldeo will have to starting trying to kill it with HP Ghost from turn one, after which Jellicent can just use Recover. That's not how countering works. If you want to try to counter Keldeo with Jellicent, you have to be able to actually switch in on HP Ghost and take the second one, which you just demonstrated is highly unlikely vs a Modest Keldeo. Of course, Timid is far more common, but even then Timid 2HKOs 11% of the time. If Jellicent has lost just a little bit of health earlier in the match, it will only increase its chance of being 2HKOd by HP Ghost. That's pretty insane considering Keldeo is using a weak move like Hidden Power against a specially defensive Pokemon with 100/105 special bulk.

Scarf/Life Orb Keldeos aren't even guaranteed 3HKOs, meaning as long as Jellicent isn't already 2/3 dead, it will be forcing a switch.

Scarf Keldeo, sure, but no one expects it to be breaking walls. Life Orb Keldeo still nets a guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock once Jellicent has lost a little less than a quarter of its health, so Jellicent still has to be fresh to take it on.

Keldeo is heavily reliant on whatever coverage move it chooses to run. If it runs HP Bug for Celebi, Jellicent will wall it, not to mention mons such as Dragonite, Salamence, etc, which can come in and proceed to set up a DD.

First of all, HP Bug is mainly just used on Expert Belt sets to kill off Celebi so that a partner with that shared counter (such as Landorus-I or Thundurus-T) can sweep. It's not meant to break walls either.

Secondly, Keldeo gets Icy Wind, and it's used specifically for Pokemon like Salamence and Dragonite on Specs sets. Salamence is also OHKO by Hydro Pump in the Rain after Stealth Rock (with a chance at being OHKOd without), and Dragonite can be OHKOd after Stealth Rock as well, so neither of those are just setting up Dragon Dance willy-nilly.

If it runs HP Ghost, it grants some great coverage, although it misses out on KO'ing mons such as Celebi, Jellicent (again), and bulkier Starmie.

Again, even at full health, specially defensive Jellicent cannot guarantee to survive the 2HKO from HP Ghost after Stealth Rock. Other variants? Forget about it, Keldeo doesn't even need Rocks to guarantee the 2HKO. Specially defensive Celebi is even less specially bulky, being 2HKOd about 26% of the time after Stealth Rock. Again, that's from full health too.

Starmie makes a great check and all, but when bulky sets are taking 77.16% - 91.04% from Specs Hydro Pump in the Rain, don't get your hopes up about switching directly in.

HP Ice can be used for Dragons, but ding-dong, Jellicent. Icy wind is preferred in situations where a faster/scarfed dragon expects to come in on a resisted hit, only to be left at -1 speed, and they now risk being KO'ed.

I don't get it. You seem to know that Keldeo uses Icy Wind, yet you think Dragons call wall it if you don't have HP Ice?

No one's arguing that Keldeo doesn't have plenty of good checks, but this notion that it has weak coverage moves incapable of getting past its main counters is completely untrue.

i dont believe keldeo is broken. if keldeo is broken for its ability to muscle past the best walls, which seems to be Gibbs' main point, then terrakion is considered broken in conjunction. Several powerhouses are broken if that point is made. However, as Dew said, its heavily reliant on its teammates to get rid of problem pokes: venusaur, celebi, latias, jellicent. Its not the one-mon army its seems to be made out to be. it doesnt even centralize things, like genesect did. With 2 competing viable weathers for it, sand and rain, keldeo just brings more variety imo. Not broken in the slightest. Just a very powerful pokemon.

Kyurem-B boasts a monstrous 170 base attack stat, only surpassed by Deoxys-A. With that attack stat he is able to fire off the most powerful Outrage in the game, capable of 2HKO'ing many of the steel types in OU thus making it very difficult to switch into. Kyurem-B also has very good stats all around with a huge 700 base stat total. Good bulk allows Kyurem-B to take many hits, including being able to survive both a super effective Bullet Punch from Scizor and Mach Punch from Breloom. With a base 120 spA and good special movepool, Kyurem-B is able to pull off a very deadly Mixed attacking set which is its claim to fame. So, what are your thoughts on what Kyurem-B's future should hold?

Alright, so Kyurem-B, also known as the Boundary Pokémon, has been sitting in the OU metagame for a couple of months now, after people deemed it not broken after a quick stint in Ubers. The first thing I would like to take a look at is his stats. The first stat I would like to focus in upon is his decently high base HP stat of 125, which allows him to create ridiculously bulky Substitutes that can't be broken with one Seismic Toss / Night Shade from Chansey / Blissey & w/e uses Night Shade, as well as not being broken by Heatran's STAB Lava Plume. Staying on the bulk of Kyurem-B, his Defenses of 125 / 100 / 90 & common resistances to Grass, Electric, & Water( The latter 2 being extremely common in the metagame ), a Substitute set is perfectly viable, as we all know, Substitute eases prediction & helps prevent against status. An example of a Substitute set would be the Shuffler set, consisting of Substitute / Roost / Dragon Tail & Hone Claws works extremely well on defensive teams, as when hazards are on the field ( Any combination of SR, Spikes, & T-Spikes, or all 3 ), he becomes deadly by buffing his Attack & Accuracy with Hone Claws, keeping in good health with Roost & an excellent damaging & phasing move in Dragon Tail which shuffles the team around until the opponents Pokémon are so worn down, a late-game sweeper can come on in & clean up late game with little to no effort at all. I believe I've covered enough about Kube's bulk in this paragraph, so allow me to talk about his offensive prowess in my next paragraph.

Here, we're going to take a look into Kyurem-B's offensive prowess, the reason why most people think it should go into the Uber tier among the other banished Pokémon. The main stat that stands out to us is that huge 170 base Attack stat, which is easily the highest out of every OU Pokémon, while the second highest base Attack stat in OU, belonging to Haxorus, is over 20 points lower than this behemoth. Anyways, the main selling point of Kyurem-B's offensive movepool is Outrage, a STAB attack that already has a base 120 power boosted by STAB, as well as by that base 170 Attack, it literally can 2HKO the entire OU tier. Speaking of Outrage, let's discuss it's Choice Band set, consisting of Outrage / Dragon Claw / Fusion Bolt & Sleep Talk ( Or Ice beam, whatever suits your fancy ). The Choice Band set literally 2HKO's the entire tier with just Outrage, as even Steel types that resist it, such as Jirachi, Scizor & Heatran are all 2HKOd by a huge Banded Outrage. Another set I would like to talk about is the Sub + 3 Attacks set, which is easily the most popular set among Kyu-B, consisting of Substitute / Fusion Bolt / Dragon Claw / Ice Beam ( Or whatever coverage move you want to use ) Anyway, this set can absolutely rip apart teams if it gets a Sub up, & these Substitutes are bulky as hell, as you wont be able to break them in only one hit. This set has very, very few switch-ins, as Hippowdon is 2HKOd by Ice Beam after Rocks, standard Banded Scizor is 2HKOd by Fusion Bolt, the list goes on & on, so you probably know now how strong Kyu-B is. Finally, I would like to talk about his Speed stat, sitting at a solid 95, allowing it to hit a benchmark of 317 with Max Speed & a Jolly Nature, outspeeding everything up to Max Speed Gliscor. When equipped with a Choice Scarf, max Speed & a Boosting Nature, it hits 475.5, allowing it outrun the entire un-boosted meta.

All in all, Kyu-B is ridiculously powerful, & it may have no hard counters, but it DOES have a handful of checks that can keep it from running wild on the OU meta, so in short, I believe he should not be banned from OU.

Alright, so Kyurem-B, also known as the Boundary Pokémon, has been sitting in the OU metagame for a couple of months now, after people deemed it not broken after a quick stint in Ubers. The first thing I would like to take a look at is his stats. The first stat I would like to focus in upon is his decently high base HP stat of 125, which allows him to create ridiculously bulky Substitutes that can't be broken with one Seismic Toss / Night Shade from Chansey / Blissey & w/e uses Night Shade, as well as not being broken by Heatran's STAB Lava Plume. Staying on the bulk of Kyurem-B, his Defenses of 125 / 100 / 90 & common resistances to Grass, Electric, & Water( The latter 2 being extremely common in the metagame ), a Substitute set is perfectly viable, as we all know, Substitute eases prediction & helps prevent against status. An example of a Substitute set would be the Shuffler set, consisting of Substitute / Roost / Dragon Tail & Hone Claws works extremely well on defensive teams, as when hazards are on the field ( Any combination of SR, Spikes, & T-Spikes, or all 3 ), he becomes deadly by buffing his Attack & Accuracy with Hone Claws, keeping in good health with Roost & an excellent damaging & phasing move in Dragon Tail which shuffles the team around until the opponents Pokémon are so worn down, a late-game sweeper can come on in & clean up late game with little to no effort at all. I believe I've covered enough about Kube's bulk in this paragraph, so allow me to talk about his offensive prowess in my next paragraph.

Here, we're going to take a look into Kyurem-B's offensive prowess, the reason why most people think it should go into the Uber tier among the other banished Pokémon. The main stat that stands out to us is that huge 170 base Attack stat, which is easily the highest out of every OU Pokémon, while the second highest base Attack stat in OU, belonging to Haxorus, is over 20 points lower than this behemoth. Anyways, the main selling point of Kyurem-B's offensive movepool is Outrage, a STAB attack that already has a base 120 power boosted by STAB, as well as by that base 170 Attack, it literally can 2HKO the entire OU tier. Speaking of Outrage, let's discuss it's Choice Band set, consisting of Outrage / Dragon Claw / Fusion Bolt & Sleep Talk ( Or Ice beam, whatever suits your fancy ). The Choice Band set literally 2HKO's the entire tier with just Outrage, as even Steel types that resist it, such as Jirachi, Scizor & Heatran are all 2HKOd by a huge Banded Outrage. Another set I would like to talk about is the Sub + 3 Attacks set, which is easily the most popular set among Kyu-B, consisting of Substitute / Fusion Bolt / Dragon Claw / Ice Beam ( Or whatever coverage move you want to use ) Anyway, this set can absolutely rip apart teams if it gets a Sub up, & these Substitutes are bulky as hell, as you wont be able to break them in only one hit. This set has very, very few switch-ins, as Hippowdon is 2HKOd by Ice Beam after Rocks, standard Banded Scizor is 2HKOd by Fusion Bolt, the list goes on & on, so you probably know now how strong Kyu-B is. Finally, I would like to talk about his Speed stat, sitting at a solid 95, allowing it to hit a benchmark of 317 with Max Speed & a Jolly Nature, outspeeding everything up to Max Speed Gliscor. When equipped with a Choice Scarf, max Speed & a Boosting Nature, it hits 475.5, allowing it outrun the entire un-boosted meta.

All in all, Kyu-B is ridiculously powerful, & it may have no hard counters, but it DOES have a handful of checks that can keep it from running wild on the OU meta, so in short, I believe he should not be banned from OU.

So basically you just talked a ton of ridiculous qualities about Kyurem-B and how it screws over slower mons and its insanely bulky and then say it shouldn't be banned after 1 sentence at the end of the post.

but it DOES have a handful of checks that can keep it from running wild on the OU meta

same thing with landorus-i and it got banned, in the end most people will vote it uber if it has a significant negative impact on the metagame into addition to being powerful/potent enough to draw attention to itself to being possibly broken, which a lot of people believe Kyurem-B does, as it destroys anything slower ie stall teams and uses any bulky water a free sub after which it just tears through teams

It may have a base 170 Attack, but when your physical movepool is basically Outrage, Dragon Claw, Fusion Bolt and maybe Stone Edge, you have problems. So that means it will always have to run a mixed set with Ice Beam or Hidden Power Fire for Ferrothorn. Of course it can use a 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe spread and a very powerful set with Ice Beam, Earth Power, Hidden Power Fire and Outrage, but imo that set is done better by Kyurem-C.

Then you have to realise that Kyurem-B has Kyurem-C's weird Dragon / Ice typing which leaves it weak to Bullet Punch, Mach Punch and Stealth Rock (although it's not weak to Ice Shard).

Kyurem black should get moved back to uber because, as honus said, its sub mixed set destroys slow and stall teams. Even on offensive teams, if it gets behind a sub, your basically going to have to sac something to break its sub, or cripple something. Its less used sets, choice band and choice scarf, are not as dangerous, but still big threats because its decent speed of 95 and an attack of 170, banded outrage turns most things into a OHKO, 2hkoing steels, while the scarfed set still scores a lot of OHKOs. Furthermore, it has enough bulk to live a CB bullet punch from scizor and mach punch from breloom, 2 of its checks and KOs them back with the right move.

Even if kyurem black itself isnt broken, which I feel it is, it should still be banned because it gears the metagame toward an offensive tempo, making stall very hard to use.

Agreeing with honus and mcdanger I think it should be banned. Yes there are a few pokes which can check it such as scarf terra but like mcdanger said if it sets sub up then you basically lose a poke which you may need to check something else. It also destroys stall teams as chansey etc can't do anything to it. Like honus said lando had checks like celebi, rotom etc which where common but that still got banned. I don't minf the choice scarf or band set but the sub set is a very easy way to beat 1 or 2 pokes.

Cube should never have even been allowed in OU in the first place. The entire voting round was immensely screwed up because of ladder inflation in the last week or so of the suspect ladder, which allowed people with 1:1 and worse win:loss ratios to get voting reqs (I think the highlight was some guy who qualified with like 20win/40loss or something absurd like that). Agreeing with everything in Dr. Ciel's post except the last line, since his first two paragraphs literally summed up how absurdly ****ed it is to have something with the level of bulk and power that Cube has in OU.

The fact that it was unbanned ever when we're leaving stuff like Thundy-i Uber is just a prime example of the stupidly arbitrary criteria that suspects were even selected and the ridiculous ease of the suspect ladder, especially during inflated periods.

^Pretty much that. I think Kyurem-B is broken in its own right, but I also have a huge problem with the way that it was dropped in an already unstable and still developing metagame before we had time to test everything else. Of course Kyurem-B seemed unbroken at the time, because we still had a bunch of broken junk running around that would later be banned themselves. Instead of retyping all of these explanations, I'll just quote some of the explanations I gave in the Kyurem-B thread in Smogon's Overused forum:

Spoiler:- Some stuff I said:

I honestly think Kyurem-B is right on the edge of broken. While it's obviously held back by its speed and Ice typing, you can't ignore its stupidly high base stats. Base 170 Atk is absolutely insane, giving its Outrage jaw-dropping power. Heck, specially defensive Jirachi is 2HKOd almost all the time by CB Outrage with Stealth Rock down. Even the standard Ferrothorn in 3HKOd, so unless the opponent uses Leech Seed + Protect, Ferrothorn actually has a shot of being killed by CB Outrage. That Atk stat is so high that Kyurem-B can run full defensive investment and still be more powerful than a Jolly Salamence. This is obviously complimented by Kyurem-B's great base 120 SpA stat, giving it far the best overall offensive status in OU and making the mixed sets all the more dangerous. You've also got insane bulk on Kyurem-B that even some defensive Pokemon would love to have, even bulkier on both sides than a Ferrothorn with equal EV investment. No common OU Pokemon has the overall bulk of Kyurem-B, with only a handful of lower tier Pokemon that can match or beat it, and there's no Pokemon in OU or lower that can match it at all for power. That combination of raw power and excellent bulk is one thing that I really think has pushed Kyurem-B over the edge for a while now.

However, one big problem I have with Kyurem-B is that I still see no reason as to why it was necessary to drop it in the first place. It's not like it was a Pokemon that was formerly OU and had no reason to continue being banned. I know there were arguments that Kyurem-B would be a good new Genesect check and could help balance Rain and Sun, but Genesect ended up being voted broken and banned, and Rain/Sun have been brought up several times as potentially broken aspects of the game even after Kyurem-B was dropped. If Kyurem-B was dropped down for that, then it just seems like another case of dropping potentially broken things just to keep other potentially broken things in check. I also think it's apparent that dropping it didn't help since, again, Genesect was banned, and Tornadus-T (one of the best Rain abusers out there) was banned, with Keldeo (another dangerous Rain abuser) being suspected in the near future. What we pretty much did was drop a Pokemon that was already insanely powerful in its own right and put even more pressure on stall, which was already hindered by powerful Pokemon already present in OU.

All in all, I'd consider Kyurem-B to be broken. I also see no reason why it was unbanned in the first place, and it's just one more burden on stall in OU. Get rid of it.

The problem is that if you're going to start experimenting with Ubers in OU, do it after the metagame is already settled. It's pretty obvious that there were still suspects in OU to test, as Genesect, Tornadus-T, Deoxys-D, and Landorus were all banned after that point in time, and Keldeo is up for another round of suspect testing. It's obvious why it was initially banned: it's base stats were through the roof compared to Pokemon in the standard metagame, and it had several other attractive aspects such as Dragon-typing. Maybe it wasn't broken at the time, and maybe it deserved a test of its own eventually, but at least wait until you're done suspecting things in the current metagame. The question still remains, why Kyurem-B? Why at that point in time? Why nothing else? In a metagame where stall was already suffering, why not try Lugia out first, anything besides one of the few Pokemon in Ubers with Dragon STAB and insane combined offensive stats? Lots of 670+ BST Ubers were quickbanned at the beginning of the generation, but how many of those have we tested?

If we had waited and went ahead with other suspects at the time, who knows? Maybe we would have gotten to all the other bans earlier and last test would have been Keldeo's, giving us a little time before XY to give Kyurem-B a test after the metagame had settled (assuming there were no suspects after Keldeo). But it looks like we now won't have much time before XY to give it a good suspect test after Keldeo, and so even though many people have already posted expressing disdain over it, we're more likely than not stuck with it.

It was a matter of priorities, and I feel that the priorities were not in order. There very well were complaints about other suspects during the time this was going on. Looking at Kyurem-B's suspect thread, I can count 3 instances where someone complained about Genesect being a better suspect (two of these also mentioned Deoxys-D and Tornadus-T as better suspects as well) and one other where someone stated the opposite about Genesect, and that's just on the first page. Discussion of other potential suspects did exist at the time, and the metagame was anything but perfectly stable when this test took place. In fact, it was during Kyurem-B's suspect test that Genesect hit that infamous 50% usage mark, which further prompted its suspect test and served as an argument for its ban.

Again, I'm not against testing Ubers entirely as long as the metagame has settled first. Even if there weren't any obvious suspects at the time, the metagame was still fairly new, and it's doubtful that it had completely settled within the couple of months between BW2's release and Kyurem-B's test. Besides, voting something unbroken in the middle of a bunch of soon to be bans/suspects does not prove that it's truly unbroken in a settled metagame, nor does it make it a good idea.

In an attempt to discredit the notion that Kyurem-B puts dangerous pressure on stall, several people have cited reyscarface's WCoP match against akhimarth as evidence to the contrary due to the fact that rey used a stall team against marth's fairly anti-stall team (which included Kyurem-B) and won. However, rey had a good response to that from his own perspective during the match, and I think it would make a good read for the content of this thread.

Spoiler:- reyscarface on Kyurem-B vs Stall:

Regarding Kyurem-B being a ***** to just purely passive stall, nah. Every kind of stall suffers against Kyurem-B. The sheer appearance of Kyurem-B regardless of set when im playing stall makes me go "oh ****". I dont play purely passive stall, as I believe that doesnt work in this metagame at all. I play stall that uses stuff like offensive starmie as a spinner and scarf garchomp as a pivot. I use other stall teams that run Scarf Politoed instead of the defensive sets and a Kyurem of my own for my offensive pivot. I can tell you Kyurem-B will **** me up from the team reveal. You might say its different in practice, but lets go back to your marth vs rey WC example.

Marths team was extremely anti stall (mainly because of Victini and not Kyurem but ill get back to that in a bit). When I saw Kyurem in team preview my first thoughts were "damn i hope thats not cb or sub". I won that game because his Kyurem was, like I said in my post in the Keldeo thread, a set in order to deal with offensive teams, Scarf. Scarf Kyurem is a nobody vs stall, but hes potent as all hell vs offense and him + scarf keldeo single handedly can destroy an offense team.

lets go to the highest level ladder imo, frontier. ive watched over 100 games in frontier and played in around 45, and kyurem is an absolute terror. sub 3 attacks kyurem, is catching up, and that set takes advantage of the necessity of offense teams to have at least one defensive pivot (celebi, rotom, etc), getting in on them, netting a sub and proceeding to kill whatever comes in. and kyurem continues the rampage. then theres scarf kyurem, who ive seen demolish offense teams by itself simply by clicking outrage. remember offense doesnt have many options for *defensive pivots* and they usually prefer taking on keldeo so the pivots are lead to him instead, that means ferrothorn is unreliable but the sole reason i can see him being used as defensive pivot in offense would be kyurem. because otherwise kyurem simply destroys. and then theres new set being popularized which is LO draco meteor kyurem with hp fire. enjoy your scizor switching in on a sub, or your ferrothorn.

and thats vs offense, vs stall we all know how it goes if the kyurem is sub roost or choice band.

going back to my game vs marth. simply seeing kyuremb made me misplay a lot. i led with chansey, saw kyurem and went **** now i have to switch out because this thing can do 80% to chansey and chansey is my win condition. and excuse me everyone who didnt see the match but for those who did, remember the back and forth switching between chansey and skarmory and kyuremb and venusaur for him? the idea of cb kyurem caused that. if i had known it was scarf chansey would have beat it, but kyurem had the ability to make me misplay simply because i saw outrage on a protect and it was too risky for me to stay in. and again this was a more offensive oriented stall team and not purely passive.

kyurem needs a test

So yeah, lots of info there. I guess what really gets me about this whole deal is that we'll probably be stuck with it unless we can form a decent sized base of players for a suspect test after XY has been released (I rather doubt it). If we had waited and went ahead with Genesect's test instead, and assuming all bans had turned out the same, we might be one test ahead right now (i.e. Keldeo's test would have been the one that happened a month ago instead of Landorus's, which would have taken place earlier). Then we would have a little extra time before XY to have a legitimate test for unbanning Kyurem-B after the metagame had already settled.