mon journal - par Vincent - No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - Commentsmon journal - par Vincent2015-02-19T13:26:33+00:00Vincent Untzurn:md5:7aa93f65570cd775650ccbcbffddebcfDotclearNo fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - flecushaurn:md5:f0bb9c764c388ec48b6e13b54a60cbaf2012-11-29T07:01:19+01:002012-11-29T07:01:19+01:00flecusha<p>aaand grammar fail.<br />
...understand how YOU ARE...<br />
...and or THEIR transition...<br />
...THEN i don't know...<br />
it's early.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - flecushaurn:md5:26e6142278738486cef188a660eeac752012-11-29T06:49:21+01:002012-11-29T06:49:21+01:00flecusha<p>regarding Alex' claim, i don't think he has to provide accurate percentages of users that do not like gnome shell to see that something has gone awry.</p>
<p>i don't understand how are you able to ignore the fact that if a software is great and/or satisfies their user's needs, there most likely won't be negative comments at all in articles/blogs about them.</p>
<p>since you might be able to counter that with something along the lines of "negative comments = vocal minority", i would also like to add to that, regarding comments about new releases of software, that comment posters regardless of them liking or disliking the software are also a vocal minority - a large number of users (majority) use the software, but NEVER comment (i was one of them, until now)</p>
<p>people won't complain if there's nothing to complain about, or at least it's not significant enough to complain about. since comment posters (regardless of liking/disliking) represent already a small number of users, and we can infer a trend from them and extend it to the general linux user populace, then the appearance of a negative (dislike) comments continuously and in a number as large as we are witnessing, should at least get us on the right track on where does the software's popularity stand, of course, within some error bars.</p>
<p>that brings us to - yes, there is a large number of people that has publicly and or vocally made known their dislike of new gnome shell and or transition to a different DE, and if you're able to ignore that, than i don't know what to say to you.</p>
<p>as for me, i'm a happy XFCE user for some time, and after some fiddling, finding it even better than the "old" gnome 2.</p>
<p>godspeed.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - Rowan Lewisurn:md5:bde76c3e1be93b87c01461b3c45d7ab52012-11-28T15:41:08+01:002012-11-28T15:41:08+01:00Rowan Lewis<p>@Alex You have not shared "market share statistics" with us.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - Nicolasurn:md5:58f5d73d8014764eff381d8f0c0611f72012-11-28T13:02:14+01:002012-11-28T13:02:14+01:00Nicolas<p>I am really curious about adoption of the shell by Solaris and RHEL operating systems ?</p>
<p>Gnome-panel usability was pretty well polished in the context of using a computer for actual work. Not sure this is the case for gnome-shell and anyway users don't necessarily want to learn new stuff.</p>
<p>What people from Oracle and Red Hat are saying about maintaining a gnome2-like experience ? I hardly imagine they will force customers to switch to gnome-shell...</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - Alexurn:md5:e07c4c69bd0827427a8d2e6e8dac728c2012-11-27T15:08:37+01:002012-11-27T15:08:37+01:00Alex<p>Market share statistics aren´t anecdotes, and neither are the serious usability flaws in GNOME Shell. The opinions of current users back up those facts.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - Rowan Lewisurn:md5:3cf02fba2fbe8694045b54192a36d2972012-11-26T01:00:56+01:002012-11-26T01:00:56+01:00Rowan Lewis<p>@Alex "I think that should be enough data."</p>
<p>That's not even data. It's an anecdote.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - jjmarinurn:md5:b6584ada426bba261ad0d0ebcacf2b042012-11-25T21:39:50+01:002012-11-25T21:39:50+01:00jjmarin<p>@Alex Well, the reaction of the experienced users that don't like gnome-shell has been negative and the reaction of the experienced users that like gnome-shell has been positive, just to give more concrete data :-)</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - Alexurn:md5:543a02c6aceb845daab744d514eda05c2012-11-25T21:22:38+01:002012-11-25T21:22:38+01:00Alex<p>Well, the desktop market share of Linux hasn't increased at all since the introduction of GNOME Shell, and the reaction to GNOME Shell from experienced users has been far from positive. I think that should be enough data.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - Rowan Lewisurn:md5:8e7f1f15c0a18c20303d394ca1ea80e92012-11-25T14:25:38+01:002012-11-25T14:25:38+01:00Rowan Lewis<p>@Alex ... "The people that like GNOME Shell seem to be a minority, and it failed to attract new users" ...</p>
<p>Care to back that up with data? Or are you just talking bullshit.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - Alexurn:md5:559f8fabac685945370e2d9f5befb3fc2012-11-25T02:27:00+01:002012-11-25T02:27:00+01:00Alex<p>@<a href="http://www.vuntz.net/journal/post/2012/11/21/No-fallback-mode-in-GNOME-3.8%2C-future-of-gnome-panel#c11636" rel="nofollow">Vincent</a>: The people that like GNOME Shell seem to be a minority, and it failed to attract new users. But most importantly, it's a fail from an usability point of view. There are several usabiity issues that are inherent to its design (the rejection of multitasking), or that won't be fixed (because it contradicts the goal of forcing people to use the Expos- I mean, the overview) or that were added in recent releases (like hiding the title bar on maximized windows). Most usablity benefits present in the GNOME Shell come from elements that could have been added to a traditional desktop UI. The way I see it, the classic UI should be the default and GNOME Shell should be an extension for those people that like it (and the GNOME designers that seem to be obsessed with their toy).</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - lolurn:md5:d3c7240ec1572cf0d40e4797fe88231e2012-11-24T15:23:41+01:002012-11-24T15:23:41+01:00lol<p>@<a href="http://www.vuntz.net/journal/post/2012/11/21/No-fallback-mode-in-GNOME-3.8%2C-future-of-gnome-panel#c11636" rel="nofollow">Vincent</a>:</p>
<p>That's fine. You should have offered something better than "fallback mode" for the people that didn't.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - lolurn:md5:4845fac431aa1cfbf992a30e4c80e9652012-11-24T15:21:41+01:002012-11-24T15:21:41+01:00lol<p>Vincent,</p>
<p>You need to get off your high horse. GNOME3 really blows.</p>
<p>MATE/Cinnamon will continue to obsolete it.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - gnomepanelurn:md5:afc98308411abc4cbd0c19c68a0997972012-11-23T22:22:06+01:002012-11-23T22:22:06+01:00gnomepanel<p>Please please please keep gnome panel :(</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - Vincenturn:md5:1af45df93b0af64e462225a70cfeb2952012-11-23T16:41:18+01:002012-11-23T16:41:18+01:00Vincent<p>@<a href="http://www.vuntz.net/journal/post/2012/11/21/No-fallback-mode-in-GNOME-3.8%2C-future-of-gnome-panel#c11635" rel="nofollow">Alex</a>: not everyone believes that GNOME Shell is a "fail", as you put it. Actually, many people very much like it and believe it's a better experience, and that's why we keep working with that vision.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - Alexurn:md5:256e0bebe268946d80c3c670c415b9ef2012-11-23T16:28:45+01:002012-11-23T16:28:45+01:00Alex<p>It´s nice that you´re supporting a UI that makes more sense, but if you´re going so far to support a classic UI , why not just ditch the fail that is GNOME Shell? There are still clear UI sins and usability issues, and recent changes have only made them worse, not better.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - Vincenturn:md5:272094986db61433b2c0bd538178814b2012-11-23T14:05:39+01:002012-11-23T14:06:35+01:00Vincent<p>@<a href="http://www.vuntz.net/journal/post/2012/11/21/No-fallback-mode-in-GNOME-3.8%2C-future-of-gnome-panel#c11632" rel="nofollow">ldng</a>: I agree that GNOME needs better communication on its direction. There have been attempts at this, and there's a new one starting right now (see <a href="https://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2012-November/msg00012.html" title="https://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2012-November/msg00012.html" rel="nofollow">https://mail.gnome.org/archives/fou...</a> )</p>
<p>About the design: I would point to <a href="https://live.gnome.org/Design" title="https://live.gnome.org/Design" rel="nofollow">https://live.gnome.org/Design</a> which has links to many useful resources. There's also work on updating the HIG -- we're actually many to wait the result of this to be published. Also, there has been work on pattern language (see <a href="https://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/PatternLanguage" title="https://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/PatternLanguage" rel="nofollow">https://live.gnome.org/UsabilityPro...</a> ), but this is only slowly moving.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - Vincenturn:md5:b4e366cc5283c41f3ee86fb8493adcfd2012-11-23T14:02:09+01:002012-11-23T14:02:09+01:00Vincent<p>@<a href="http://www.vuntz.net/journal/post/2012/11/21/No-fallback-mode-in-GNOME-3.8%2C-future-of-gnome-panel#c11631" rel="nofollow">stefano-k</a>: Oh, I know you're not slamming the door in GNOME's face, don't worry :-) I'm just thinking the goals are not that opposite. But in the end, you're the guys working on MATE, so you decide what is right for it.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - ldngurn:md5:7867abfc39408e013a54f3b5bf9677502012-11-22T23:21:06+01:002012-11-22T23:21:06+01:00ldng<p>To me it make sense to drop the compat mode. There are several alternatives to choose from.</p>
<p>For me G3 is not ready yet, so I'll stick to cinnamon for now because I'm more productive with it.<br />
And so is my dad who went through Unity -&gt; Gnome Shell -&gt; Cinnamon (without having touch a PC<br />
before). He is computer illiterate and still struggle with Cinnamon though. But like it better<br />
because it feels simpler to him. So I hope his not the public target, otherwise it is a fail.</p>
<p>I've refrained to comment more on G3 as I don't consider it mature yet and it wouldn't be fair.<br />
But since vuntz says he listens to user (and I know it to be true), I'll make just one actionable comment :-p</p>
<p>First, the Gnome project really should start to communicate better it's direction.<br />
Once upon a time there was this reassuring document called HIG. It's not about the document<br />
itself but rather how it was perceived from the outside.</p>
<p>Is there a G3 HIG ? Or rather the GDG, the Gnome Design Guideline.<br />
I see it as an extension to the HIG since current HIG is supposed to still apply.<br />
I don't think the Design Team can redesign every Gnome application on earth,<br />
nor, I am sure, do they want to. So please, set the course.</p>
<p>That could be a start at improving the communication with the community at large.<br />
Including for people who would like to follow them yet stay outside<br />
the official Gnome project for whatever reason.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - stefano-kurn:md5:6761708e54d54fe067513641edcfed292012-11-22T23:15:37+01:002012-11-22T23:15:37+01:00stefano-k<p>Hi Vincent,<br />
I think it's not possible to unify MATE and GNOME3 roads, they are based on two opposite ideas. It's not a question of gnome-panel and applets, all GNOME apps got irreversible changes in 3.x releases. But I'm not slamming the door in the GNOME face, there are a lot of things that are shared between MATE and GNOME, like glib, gtk and a lot of other libs, where both can work together.</p>No fallback mode in GNOME 3.8, future of gnome-panel - Sandyurn:md5:89da45498e1cf6cf0011c76fa65ee29e2012-11-22T20:43:11+01:002012-11-22T20:43:11+01:00Sandy<p>A "static dash" would be great. Something like:<br />
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/qsylu.jpg" title="http://i.imgur.com/qsylu.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://i.imgur.com/qsylu.jpg</a></p>