anyone saying Raiola is great is smoking the same crackrock the this "mysterious GM is by saying he isnt good enough to be in the NFL. Raiola is NOT all pro, but he's no chump either.you dont start on ANY team for 12 years and not be at the very least a solid player.

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November 7th, 2012, 4:50 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Lions' problems much deeper than awful special teams

regularjoe12 wrote:

anyone saying Raiola is great is smoking the same crackrock the this "mysterious GM is by saying he isnt good enough to be in the NFL. Raiola is NOT all pro, but he's no chump either.you dont start on ANY team for 12 years and not be at the very least a solid player.

I disagree RJ.

The guy telegraphs his snaps and he's done it since he came into the league, we've never been able to get any push while he was on our line, he cheats, chop blocks, leg whips, etc. (IMO he plays dirty), he's flipped off the fans, gotten into petty arguments with fans, etc. The guy is a joke, and he's not even a good OC. He's 20-30lbs undersized, and he has short arms. IMO he is below average, for sure.

November 9th, 2012, 4:14 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: Lions' problems much deeper than awful special teams

wjb21ndtown wrote:

regularjoe12 wrote:

anyone saying Raiola is great is smoking the same crackrock the this "mysterious GM is by saying he isnt good enough to be in the NFL. Raiola is NOT all pro, but he's no chump either.you dont start on ANY team for 12 years and not be at the very least a solid player.

I disagree RJ.

The guy telegraphs his snaps and he's done it since he came into the league, we've never been able to get any push while he was on our line, he cheats, chop blocks, leg whips, etc. (IMO he plays dirty), he's flipped off the fans, gotten into petty arguments with fans, etc. The guy is a joke, and he's not even a good OC. He's 20-30lbs undersized, and he has short arms. IMO he is below average, for sure.

I just don't see it. Please don't think Im selling him a great, cuz I think we can all agree the only time he'll see Canton is on a family vacation, BUT you just dont start in this league for 12 years and not be at least average. He IS under sized and has short arms, but he has also been the blocking scheme leader for our line since he started. lets not forget that he has had no less than 2 league leading passers behind him durring his carreer. You just CANT be a slouch and have that happen. Once again...Not great, but certainly better than a backup.

Now as far as his personality...yep I agree he's pretty much a jerk with a mean streak. But isnt that what you want from a center?

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November 9th, 2012, 4:26 pm

conversion02

RIP Killer

Joined: January 26th, 2005, 9:34 pmPosts: 10773Location: Sycamore, IL

Re: Lions' problems much deeper than awful special teams

Can you even list the OC's in this league that are the 320+ that you claim is normal size? FYI, arguably the best OC in the league, maurkice pouncey, is only 9 lbs heavier than raiola. I don't like raiola, but come on, that weight statement is ludicrous.

Don't you think that the rag tag cast of garbage OGs next to him for the past decade have something to do with getting zero push? Woody was the best OG we had and he was fat and slow. Kosier was good for the year he played for the lions (after he replaced that turd Rick demulling). Unfortunately, that was the jeff garcia year, so defenses were stacking the box because moonball couldnt throw further than 15 yards. Also, remember Kevin jones ran for over 1100 yards and a 4.7 ypc his rookie year.

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November 9th, 2012, 5:19 pm

Ferris

Pro Bowl Player

Joined: April 19th, 2005, 2:10 pmPosts: 2478Location: Michigan

Re: Lions' problems much deeper than awful special teams

Raiola played through a nasty injury this year - the Lions were 9 - 70 on the road before stafford got his groove on, and 9 - 6 on the road since. The center isn't the problem and he has never been the problem. Wake up

Can you even list the OC's in this league that are the 320+ that you claim is normal size? FYI, arguably the best OC in the league, maurkice pouncey, is only 9 lbs heavier than raiola. I don't like raiola, but come on, that weight statement is ludicrous.

Don't you think that the rag tag cast of garbage OGs next to him for the past decade have something to do with getting zero push? Woody was the best OG we had and he was fat and slow. Kosier was good for the year he played for the lions (after he replaced that turd Rick demulling). Unfortunately, that was the jeff garcia year, so defenses were stacking the box because moonball couldnt throw further than 15 yards. Also, remember Kevin jones ran for over 1100 yards and a 4.7 ypc his rookie year.

Last year Raiola's weight was listed as 286, most of the OCs in the league are 305 or better. In fact, most of the teams that has an OC under 300lbs should be looking for a replacement. The only teams with an OC under 300 are: Atl, Cinn, Det., GB, Tex, Jax, and KC. Atl is having trouble moving the ball up the middle. GB knows that Saturday is only a stop-gap, and they also have trouble opening holes and moving the ball up the middle. Jax is a mess, and KC can't move the ball up the middle either. The only team with a good ground game that has an OC under 300 is Texas, and I'd argue that their pass game sets up their ground game. Their ground game certainly isn't "traditional."

Peterman sucks, no doubt, but this line has sucked since we drafted Raiola, period. Kosier was pretty good, Woody was excellent, and Sims is good. While we may have had Garcia, why couldn't we move the ball on the ground the Kosier year? Why did Garcia succeed prior to coming to Detroit and after being in Detroit, but couldn't get it done here?

KJ had a good rookie season, but he was fast his rookie year and got outside. It was after his ankle injury that he lost a step, couldn't get outside and slowed down.

The bottom line is this line has NEVER been able to pick up a 3rd and short on a consistent basis with Raiola under center. He leg whips, trips, and cheats, his legs look like toothpicks, his arms are short, and he telegraphs his snaps. He is a horrible OC, and he's part of the problem on this OL, not part of the solution.

November 14th, 2012, 3:30 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: Lions' problems much deeper than awful special teams

Wait... Did I just read "Woody was excellent"???

we're talkin Fat badonkadonk, out of shape, past his prime, played like a 50 year old Woody? That guy?

Your losing credibility here WJB. Woody was TERRIBLE when he got here. (ok he played decent one year...and saying decent is being kind.) The rest of the time he was USELESS.

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November 14th, 2012, 4:17 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Lions' problems much deeper than awful special teams

regularjoe12 wrote:

Wait... Did I just read "Woody was excellent"???

we're talkin Fat badonkadonk, out of shape, past his prime, played like a 50 year old Woody? That guy?

Your losing credibility here WJB. Woody was TERRIBLE when he got here. (ok he played decent one year...and saying decent is being kind.) The rest of the time he was USELESS.

Damien Woody was the best OLman we had for his entire career in Detroit. He shifted to RT for a while, and was the best RT that we've had for the last decade.

November 14th, 2012, 5:08 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: Lions' problems much deeper than awful special teams

wjb21ndtown wrote:

regularjoe12 wrote:

Wait... Did I just read "Woody was excellent"???

we're talkin Fat badonkadonk, out of shape, past his prime, played like a 50 year old Woody? That guy?

Your losing credibility here WJB. Woody was TERRIBLE when he got here. (ok he played decent one year...and saying decent is being kind.) The rest of the time he was USELESS.

Damien Woody was the best OLman we had for his entire career in Detroit. He shifted to RT for a while, and was the best RT that we've had for the last decade.

thats like saying he was the shiniest turd in the sewer....do I need to remind you of who we have had at RT for the pasr 15 years?

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November 14th, 2012, 5:09 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Lions' problems much deeper than awful special teams

regularjoe12 wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

regularjoe12 wrote:

Wait... Did I just read "Woody was excellent"???

we're talkin Fat badonkadonk, out of shape, past his prime, played like a 50 year old Woody? That guy?

Your losing credibility here WJB. Woody was TERRIBLE when he got here. (ok he played decent one year...and saying decent is being kind.) The rest of the time he was USELESS.

Damien Woody was the best OLman we had for his entire career in Detroit. He shifted to RT for a while, and was the best RT that we've had for the last decade.

thats like saying he was the shiniest turd in the sewer....do I need to remind you of who we have had at RT for the pasr 15 years?

You do realize that Woody was a Pro Bowl alternate in 2004, and was only "fat" after coming back from an injury in NE, and then when he came back from his injured reserve season in 2006, right? You do realize that we drafted a first round RT in Stockar McDougal that never panned out? And you do realize that we had Kyle Kosier AND Woody BOTH on the line next to Raiola, and we STILL couldn't run the ball up the middle, or to the right side, even with a 320lb RT in McDougal? That's ridiculous.

The fact remains, Woody was a great OG for us while he was here, and he was hampered by the worthelss OC next to him. Even with Woody and Kosier (who had a decent career after he left here for Dallas) we still couldn't run the damn ball. For the last decade the one constant up the middle has been Raiola, and no matter who we put next to him we could NEVER move the ball up the middle with him in the lineup, period.

November 14th, 2012, 5:21 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: Lions' problems much deeper than awful special teams

Woody was good in NE....but you're not remembering things correctly about his play here bro. he was not good...at all. and please fopr the love of god dont mention Stockar McNuggets ever again! Talk about a bust!

i'll give ya Kozier though. he was pretty decent.

And I STILL think you misunderstand me. I never once said Dom was great, but you're kidding yourself by saying he's terrible. He's not. He may not be the best run blocker, but often the best run blockers are not the best pass blockers. you can not take away what the line has done for QB's over the past decade. you CANT have a terrible center and have TWO (not 1, but 2) league leading passers behind you. especially when one is named Kitna! You can hate that he isnt perfect, you can point out his shortcomming, both the ones that are and arn't his fault, but you can not take away the fact that QB's have had a ton of success standing behind him. if nothing else it earns hiom the respect of being an average pro.

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November 14th, 2012, 5:40 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Lions' problems much deeper than awful special teams

regularjoe12 wrote:

Woody was good in NE....but you're not remembering things correctly about his play here bro. he was not good...at all. and please fopr the love of god dont mention Stockar McNuggets ever again! Talk about a bust!

i'll give ya Kozier though. he was pretty decent.

And I STILL think you misunderstand me. I never once said Dom was great, but you're kidding yourself by saying he's terrible. He's not. He may not be the best run blocker, but often the best run blockers are not the best pass blockers. you can not take away what the line has done for QB's over the past decade. you CANT have a terrible center and have TWO (not 1, but 2) league leading passers behind you. especially when one is named Kitna! You can hate that he isnt perfect, you can point out his shortcomming, both the ones that are and arn't his fault, but you can not take away the fact that QB's have had a ton of success standing behind him. if nothing else it earns hiom the respect of being an average pro.

He was a Pro Bowl alternate in 2004, his first year here. Who's not remembering things correctly?

You can say that Dom is good at 50% of his game, but last I checked 50% is a failing grade, and FWIW, the OCs job in the passing game is more to snap the ball properly and "assist" the OG's, they don't really have a huge role in pass blocking other than that, except to pick up the occasional blitzer. IMO that's not enough to "take credit" for or even to at least take partial credit for the Qbs success.

November 14th, 2012, 6:15 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: Lions' problems much deeper than awful special teams

wjb21ndtown wrote:

regularjoe12 wrote:

Woody was good in NE....but you're not remembering things correctly about his play here bro. he was not good...at all. and please fopr the love of god dont mention Stockar McNuggets ever again! Talk about a bust!

i'll give ya Kozier though. he was pretty decent.

And I STILL think you misunderstand me. I never once said Dom was great, but you're kidding yourself by saying he's terrible. He's not. He may not be the best run blocker, but often the best run blockers are not the best pass blockers. you can not take away what the line has done for QB's over the past decade. you CANT have a terrible center and have TWO (not 1, but 2) league leading passers behind you. especially when one is named Kitna! You can hate that he isnt perfect, you can point out his shortcomming, both the ones that are and arn't his fault, but you can not take away the fact that QB's have had a ton of success standing behind him. if nothing else it earns hiom the respect of being an average pro.

He was a Pro Bowl alternate in 2004, his first year here. Who's not remembering things correctly?

You can say that Dom is good at 50% of his game, but last I checked 50% is a failing grade, and FWIW, the OCs job in the passing game is more to snap the ball properly and "assist" the OG's, they don't really have a huge role in pass blocking other than that, except to pick up the occasional blitzer. IMO that's not enough to "take credit" for or even to at least take partial credit for the Qbs success.

well in all fairness you ARE more critical than the average bear. This is a tough debate to win for either side, as it's a no brainer that he is not great, it's just a matter of judging how bad he is. If you expect him to be all pro hall of fame, then by that standard he sucks. But i dont think it's fair to have that high of expectations. I simply dont think he deserved that knock by the "GM" who is too scared to have his name in print. And I think deep down that GM knew it too or he'd have the balls to either let his name be in print, or face Dom face to face (or at least over the phone).