From: IN%"serpell@vet.upenn.edu" "James Serpell" 30-SEP-1999 13:35:37.93
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: Scientific bias & Rupert Sheldrake
Mike,
You wrote:
>Are you really suggesting, James, that we should reject the work of
>everyone who formulates a hypothesis (or develops a theory) and then does
>further investigations?
Obviously not. Hypothesis testing is part of what science is about. But I
do believe it is odd and perhaps irresponsible to pursue evidence to
support an extremely eccentric theory of the universe, while at the same
time systematically ignoring or denigrating the vast array of evidence that
supports mainstream scientific opinion. I also think it is inappropriate to
play to the gallery of 'anti-scientism' in the way that Rupert does in his
books.
>Personally I suspect that the totally impartial paper has yet to be written,
>and would like to see the standard scientific paper format (Introduction,
>Methods, Results, etc) extended to include a "background & subjective bias"
>section, which could include things like :
>
>"We did this work because we wanted to be involved in this subject area and
>thought the topic would attract funding"
>
>"The results are pretty dubious/useless, but we need to generate X
>publications per year"
Ah, such cynicism! Sure, there are biases in science, as in any field of
human endeavour. But science is ultimately doomed and discredited unless it
upholds the "ideal" of impartiality, even if it is unable to match this
ideal all of the time.
>James, do I detect an "inherent bias" against spiritual connections in
>science?
No prizes for that. Even the phrase "spiritual connections in science"
fills me with dismay. As far as I am concerned, science and spirituality
have nothing to do with each other. Certainly, the record of history
suggests that they can only coexist amicably when kept strictly apart.
>Steven Shapin's book draws attention to the close relationships that have
>existed at times in the past between religion and science. In fact,
>complete divorce of science from religion may be a quite recent (20th
>century) phenomenon.
A fact that probably helps to explain the extraordinary progress in science
during this century.
James
___________________________________________________________________
Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare,
Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society,
Dept. of Clinical Studies,
School of Veterinary Medicine,
University of Pennsylvania, Tel: (215) 898-1004
3900 Delancey Street, Fax: (215) 573-6050
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010, USA serpell@vet.upenn.edu
http://www.vet.upenn.edu/cias/
From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 30-SEP-1999 15:10:34.60
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: Scientific bias & Rupert Sheldrake
>>> "Michael Meredith" 09/29 2:02 pm >>> I =
genuinely believed that everyone would have come across the examples of =
the scientific establishment rejecting people's work because it flew in =
the face of current dogma.>>>
I am not aware of a single example (although no doubt someone=20
will suggest some). A dogma is "a belief held by an authority which
others are expected to accept without arguement" (OED). The=20
religious belief that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same=20
entity is a dogma. People are expected to believe this without=20
evidence or arguement. Theories that propose that they are three=20
separate entities are rejected solely because they conflict with this=20
dogma. Nothing like this exists in present science. I cannot think=20
of a single "belief" in science that people are expected to accept=20
WITHOUT ARGUEMENT.
Much of the scepticism surrounding telepathy comes from the fact
that it seems to require a major change in our understanding of=20
the physical universe. The present theories of the universe, such=20
as quantum electrodynamics, are not a dogma. They are=20
accepted because they have been tested many times and have=20
been supported. The burden of proof has to be on=20
the people who wish to reject these theories. But this is not=20
"rejecting them because they fly in the face of dogma".
The second source of scepticism arises from the fact that,=20
despite the fair amount of research in paranormal phenomena,=20
noone has yet come up with a single convincing case, which can
be replicated, which is not due to trickery, and which is not due
to poor experimental controls.=20
Scientists do not reject telepathy because of dogma, but=20
because there are very good reasons to think that it does not=20
exist.
Jeff Rushen
**************************************************
Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D.
Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre,
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada,
PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East,
Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3
Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206
Fax. 1-819-5645507
Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca
**************************************************
**************************************************
Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D.
Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre,
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada,
PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East,
Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3
Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206
Fax. 1-819-5645507
Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca
**************************************************
From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 30-SEP-1999 16:18:43.98
To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: Scientific bias & Rupert Sheldrake
On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 17:05:03 -0400 Jeff Rushen
writes:
> >>> "Michael Meredith" 09/29 2:02 pm >>> I
> genuinely believed that everyone would have come across the examples
> of the scientific establishment rejecting people's work because it
> flew in the face of current dogma.>>>
>
> I am not aware of a single example (although no doubt someone
> will suggest some). A dogma is "a belief held by an authority which
> others are expected to accept without argument" (OED). The
> religious belief that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same
> entity is a dogma. People are expected to believe this without
> evidence or argument. Theories that propose that they are three
> separate entities are rejected solely because they conflict with
> this
> dogma. Nothing like this exists in present science. I cannot think
> of a single "belief" in science that people are expected to accept
> WITHOUT ARGUMENT.
>
> Scientists do not reject telepathy because of dogma, but
> because there are very good reasons to think that it does not
> exist.
>
> Jeff Rushen
Agreed . . . . ideally. However, on a practical basis it seems that too
often only those with heavy credentials and reputation are ALLOWED to
argue. Here is an experience that I had with arguing:
Many years ago I wrote up a case report and submitted it to the AVMA
Journal. I took the time to write it up because it was unusual and, to a
degree, went against the current professional wisdom. It was viciously
(IMO) rejected not on the basis of the info in the report, but on the
basis that I personally had probably made some very fundamental and
foolish professional errors. I knew I had not made such errors, but, as a
busy practitioner, I had no time to deal with this perceived gross
unfairness. My perception was that if this editor was willing to be so
insulting to a practicing professional then I was very unlikely to have a
chance to reverse his decision; so I never even answered the rejection.
I suspect that had I been active at the academic level and/or had
developed a reputation in the field (parasitology in this case), my
report would not have suffered this ad hominem rejection.
DBC
From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 30-SEP-1999 17:21:01.25
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)"
CC:
Subj: RE: Science and Unverifyable stuff
I find myself in competition with a homeopathic chemist
and a least one homeopathic veterinary surgeon. I think
they buy in their nosodes although it is easy to make
them. Apparently after diluting the similitudinous
substance until there are no molecules of it in the water
the classic activation (succussation) is to knock the
bottle smartly 60 times against a large book.
After some interesting encounters with heart cases and
epileptic dogs and a couple of fatalities I am close to
striking her about the head 60 times with each and
every one of the books she apparently never read!
But that is not why I write.
I rang the chemist today and asked if in his 35 years
of homeopathic dispensing he had ever experienced
or heard of any recall of a homeopathic product or
any mishap with manufacture or container.
He says he has never heard of such a thing.
This leaves me wondering why the entire world
of space and aeronautical engineering and every
other industry or endeavour on the planet has not
invaded the nosode manufacturers to discover the
secret of this technical infallibility and whence
the faultless superhumans came who administer
this miracle.
Just a thought.
Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S.
The Veterinary Clinic
78 Bromyard Road
Worcester
WR2 5DA
Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296
Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287
Centre of Applied Pet Ethology
Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 30-SEP-1999 17:36:59.82
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)"
CC:
Subj: RE: Science and Unverifyable stuff
I find myself in competition with a homeopathic chemist
and a least one homeopathic veterinary surgeon. I think
they buy in their nosodes although it is easy to make
them. Apparently after diluting the similitudinous
substance until there are no molecules of it in the water
the classic activation (succussation) is to knock the
bottle smartly 60 times against a large book.
After some interesting encounters with heart cases and
epileptic dogs and a couple of fatalities I am close to
striking her about the head 60 times with each and
every one of the books she apparently never read!
But that is not why I write.
I rang the chemist today and asked if in his 35 years
of homeopathic dispensing he had ever experienced
or heard of any recall of a homeopathic product or
any mishap with manufacture or container.
He says he has never heard of such a thing.
This leaves me wondering why the entire world
of space and aeronautical engineering and every
other industry or endeavour on the planet has not
invaded the nosode manufacturers to discover the
secret of this technical infallibility and whence
the faultless superhumans came who administer
this miracle.
Just a thought.
"Laughter is the best medicine! If however you have
diabetes it is definitely insulin"
Reader's Digest
Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S.
The Veterinary Clinic
78 Bromyard Road
Worcester
WR2 5DA
Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296
Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287
Centre of Applied Pet Ethology
Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" 30-SEP-1999 19:54:10.00
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: JIR
Hi All
Great discussion re, science.
Can someone tell me if the Journal of Irreproducible Results is still
published? My subscription lapsed several years ago with the issue that
investigated the mysterious matings among the side-hill gougers of the
Olympic penninsula.
Speaking of hard-to-believe, unscientifically measurable phenomena, anyone
with allergies might be interested in looking at the testimonials at
http://allergy-naet.com
Especially interesting is the one from David Minkoff, MD, in So. Cal., who
intends to publish a paper of his clinical results. I wish him luck;
because two treatments [with at least ten more to go] have almost doubled
my extrinsically asthmatic lung capacity, as measured on a peak flow meter.
:-)
Bill Campbell
P.O. Box 1658
Grants Pass, OR 97528
http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior
From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 1-OCT-1999 00:07:08.86
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)"
CC:
Subj: My Cure's better than your Cure!
Great web site Bill/ Loved the child who has an
emotional blockage to being told what to do!
I was cured again last night. I walked slowly from
my car wheezing and stopping and asking my
associate Karen to walk "a little more slowly".
Then I sat for two hours listening to the Poozies
a gorgeous all girl riot of laughter, beauty, harps,
accordions, rude ballads and celebration of life
and the daftness of Gaelic lyrics. I drummed my, fingers
and my feet, hooted, clapped and strode back to
the car effortlessly.
The Brain is the best stocked pharmacy and its URLs
are without number.
Have you noticed how often it rains on or within
two days either side of Wednesday?
The problem with the PR of Cures is that only
success is trumpeted. There is no market for
the failures of Unorthodoxy. This is because
the universal response is "well what did you expect?"
I started a survey of my clients in 1984 along the lines
of asking if they had had homeopathic advice or tried
such remedies for their pets. I soon gave up. Around
50% seemed to have tried something and it began to
look like 1% had thought it worked.
To pursue "witches" you have to be as cruel and weird
as any "witch finder"
If I were a Roman senator I could would buy exotic flautists
and dancers from the best slave upmarket and install
them in and around my thermal baths.
What a "wheeze"?
Robin
I don't really want to tie folk to the stake of my scorn
and heap the faggots of annoyance about their feet.
Who could be so cruel as to heap faggots about anybody?
Just imagine it. The smoke, the "screaming"
and the ghastly frocks?
I
Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S.
The Veterinary Clinic
78 Bromyard Road
Worcester
WR2 5DA
Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296
Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287
Centre of Applied Pet Ethology
Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 1-OCT-1999 01:12:37.71
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net"
Subj: RE: JIR
--- Bill Campbell wrote:
> Can someone tell me if the Journal of Irreproducible
> Results is still published?
>
Dear Bill et al.,
Who needs JIR, now that we have the NET?
And speaking of the WWW, science, scientific method,
dogs, animal handling, stress, and Temple Grandin -
could someone maybe explain to me the purpose of the
article at:
http://www.scn.org/~bk269/fear.html
The article is entitled "Animal Stress Results in Meat
Causing Disease," and I have copied below a couple of
statements:
"Stress, fear and pain when animals are being
slaughtered or waiting to be slaughtered results in
several disease processes in the humans which eat the
meat. Most notable are cardiac problems, impotency and
general fatigue. These adverse effects are most
directly associated with consumption of dog meat."
"Fear in animals during slaughter causes dramatic
reduction of vitality and sexual potency in humans who
eat the meat. Fortunately, humans have evolved to
mainly eat animals which can be slaughtered with a
minimum of stress. Consumption of emotional animals
such as dogs is limited to a few primative societies.
Therefore it is unlikely that dramatic reductions in
health occurs as a result of slaughtering techniques."
Now, some on this Applied Ethology group may question
whether or not this article by Dr. Putzfoff of the
Schmuckintush Lab should have been published, but I
point out to you that he referenced highly creditable
work including mine, Jeff Rushen's - not to mention 9
Temple Grandin references - and a host of others.
With such a reference list, you gotta believe it.
My serious question is, What the heck was the purpose
in writing this article? Was it intended to be a
spoof on science? On eating meat? Or was it written
just for fun - and I, being trained to seek purpose
and function, am lost in trying to find some rational
explanation for this article and ...
Ray Stricklin
----------------------
W. Ray Stricklin
University of Maryland
From: IN%"budaev@irene.msk.ru" "Sergey Budaev" 1-OCT-1999 05:15:16.42
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: ISCP Meeting in Warsaw 2000
THE INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR
COMPARATIVE PSYCHOLOGY
announces its
Tenth International Conference in
July (19-21) 2000 in Warsaw
The conference will take place at the
University of Warsaw, located in downtown
Warsaw, very close to the most important
historical and political places in the city.
The main campus is also the part of Warsaw
Old Town.
The conference center provides all facilities
needed to organize symposia and plenary
sessions.
Accommodation. There are five hotels within
walking distance of the conference venue:
Holiday Inn, Mariot, Victoria, Bristol, and
Europejski (European). Relatively cheaper
accommodation at the University Hotel
(Socrates) will also be available.
Transportation - good bus connections for
participants staying at other then
recommended locations.
Tours: both pre- and postconference tours are
to be proposed.
For participants planning to attend the XXVII
International Congress of Psychology in
Stockholm special travel assistance may be
arranged.
Weather: in July temperatures vary from 15 to
27 C
***************
IMPORTANT!
***************
To receive more details, registration and
accommodation forms, please sent the message
including name, position or title, mailing
address (including e-mail) to:
Wojciech Pisula
Institute of Psychology
Polish Academy of Sciences
Podlesna 61
01-673 Warsaw
POLAND
Immediate response to this announcement via
INTERNET will be also effective. Make sure
however, that your message includes your full
name and mailing address, and that you are
responding to
zpz@sci.psych.uw.edu.pl
Once we register you on the mailing list, the
calls for papers and symposia will be send
directly to you.
Let's meet in Warsaw !!!
*********************************************
ISCP - Warsaw 2000
A.N. Severtsov Institute of Ecology and Evolution
Russian Academy of Sciences
Leninsky prospect, 33
Moscow 117071
Russia
--------------------------------------------------
tel: (7 095) 952-40-17
fax: (7 095) 954-55-34
From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 1-OCT-1999 05:16:35.75
To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" "'ws31@umail.umd.edu'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca"
CC: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "billcamp@cdsnet.net"
Subj: RE: More Meat Please
A lady from PETA with an American accent called
Toni Vanelli was on our local BBC radio yesterday.
She was telling us that meat kills people and veg.
doesn't.
This is an interesting thesis that does seem to
confront a great deal of well documented knowledge
and archaeology of meat eating cultures.
I think the epitome of slaughter methods is that described
for the Plains Indians who ran herds of bison over cliffs
and into ravines where they smashed into heaps to be
slaughtered at leisure. The sickly meat eaters then
butchered and heaved the result back up the cliffs.
Three aboriginal Indians could heave an entire
buffalo carcass out of a gully with astonishing ease.
The military surgeons of the early and mid 19th century
were amazed at the ability of such tribesmen to
sustain and survive appalling wounds from modern
weaponry such as would be routinely fatal to Europeans.
This story can be replicated for the Zulu, the Masai, the
Esquimaux and I will not detain you with the prodigious
stamina of the Mongols. Drinking horse blood from the vein
and eating meat tenderised under the saddle they rode
a 100 miles a day and toppled India, China, Persia and
most of Russia and Eastern Europe.
God be praised they had not discovered veggie-burgers!
I could reference all this and will if anyone asks (as you well
know and probably won't for peace and quiet)
Robin
Anything else?
-----Original Message-----
From: W. Ray Stricklin [SMTP:ws31@umail.umd.edu]
Sent: Friday, October 01, 1999 8:12 AM
To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Cc: billcamp@cdsnet.net
Subject: Re: JIR
"Stress, fear and pain when animals are being
slaughtered or waiting to be slaughtered results in
several disease processes in the humans which eat the
meat. Most notable are cardiac problems, impotency and
general fatigue. These adverse effects are most
directly associated with consumption of dog meat."
"Fear in animals during slaughter causes dramatic
reduction of vitality and sexual potency in humans who
eat the meat. Fortunately, humans have evolved to
mainly eat animals which can be slaughtered with a
minimum of stress. Consumption of emotional animals
such as dogs is limited to a few primative societies.
Therefore it is unlikely that dramatic reductions in
health occurs as a result of slaughtering techniques."
Now, some on this Applied Ethology group may question
whether or not this article by Dr. Putzfoff of the
Schmuckintush Lab should have been published, but I
point out to you that he referenced highly creditable
work including mine, Jeff Rushen's - not to mention 9
Temple Grandin references - and a host of others.
With such a reference list, you gotta believe it.
My serious question is, What the heck was the purpose
in writing this article? Was it intended to be a
spoof on science? On eating meat? Or was it written
just for fun - and I, being trained to seek purpose
and function, am lost in trying to find some rational
explanation for this article and ...
Ray Stricklin
----------------------
W. Ray Stricklin
University of Maryland
From: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk" "Hans Erhard" 1-OCT-1999 05:39:56.62
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: More Meat Please
And what happened to the Mongols after they had toppled all these
countries? Did they become vegetarians? Or did the Chinese,
Persians, Russians, Eastern Europeans start eating meat? Or maybe
they discovered spinach? ;-)
Sorry, Robin, but I just couldn't resist.
Hans
From: IN%"filip.mulkens@agr.kuleuven.ac.be" 1-OCT-1999 06:02:56.85
To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: ISCP Meeting in Warsaw 2000
"Sergey Budaev" Wrote:
|
|
| THE INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR
| COMPARATIVE PSYCHOLOGY
|
| announces its
|
| Tenth International Conference in
| July (19-21) 2000 in Warsaw
|
|
Dear Sergey
Thank you for this Conference Announcement. How was the Conference in
Bangalore, India? Do you know if there exists a website with the
abstracts/proceedings of that Conference, and especially of the Symposium
'Personality and Individual Differences in Humans and (other) Animals'?
The first article that I wrote about my pig study was rejected, and the second
is still in review. As soon as it is accepted, I will send you a copy.
Thank you very much in advance.
Yours Sincerely.
Filip
Dr. F. Mulkens, DVM
Laboratory for Quality Care in Animal Production, K.U.Leuven
Bijzondere Weg 12, B-3360 Lovenjoel, Belgium
Tel: +32-16-46 81 35 - Fax: +32-16-46 81 59 - E-mail:
filip.mulkens@agr.kuleuven.ac.be
From: IN%"Ksmuts@sarcc.co.za" "Kristene Smuts" 1-OCT-1999 06:42:15.34
To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: Science and Unverifyable stuff
Hi All!
I am coming out! (of lurker mode)
>>The Brain is the best stocked pharmacy and its URLs
are without number.>> and other thoughts
I am an advocate of the natural way of healing / prevention for humans and =
animals alike. I know this subject is an emotional one and may or may not =
elicit many responses. The reason for my belief is simple : If it has =
worked for 5000+ years and has been proven to have no adverse effects if =
administered correctly, why should it suddenly NOT work? Antibiotics have =
only been on the market for the last 40 years or so. Please, before you =
all start replying to this, I also do believe there is a place for modern =
medicine ALONGSIDE the natural way of doing things.
Why has acupuncture worked for so many (thousands) years? Staunch =
religious people (please, this is not with any disrespect, but merely my =
personal observation) vehemently advocate against this and other natural =
practices, calling it the work of the devil? Is it because it comes from =
the East? Because it was practiced successfully long before Christianity =
and other religions? Sorry, this is not about religion, so please forgive =
me.
What my point is, is that we should not have blinkers on and stick to the =
normal way of thinking, that only the modern, scientific, verifiable =
methods and medicines work. I for one would rather stick to what has been =
tested for thousands of years as opposed to only 40 years.
Now, onto the brain. Well, the most powerful computer in the universe has =
not been credited with the ability to heal or destroy the body. I =
personally have witnessed this when I was a youngster. Shortly (so as not =
to waste any time or space) the husband had throat cancer and died when he =
was in his fifties. His wife was the strong one in the relationship =
(being Italian) and ruled the house. After his death, it took three =
months and his widow lay beside him in the grave. I remember the family =
puzzling over the cause of her death as the doctors could find nothing =
wrong with her. In the three months she gradually wasted away - first her =
kidneys failed, then her liver and finally her heart just stopped beating. =
She wasn't ill, in the normal sense of the word, she didn't have any =
disease, her heart was normally very strong. So, make of this what you =
will.
I assume everyone who has gone to any motivation seminars have heard the =
story of the man on the boat that goes up to the fairly frail, pale =
looking man and asks him if he can help as the frail one is looking =
sickly, is he OK, can he help him to his cabin? Soon the frail one is =
deathly ill. The same man goes up to the tanned, healthy sailor and asks =
him the same question. The answer? "What do you mean? There is nothing =
wrong with me. I am as healthy as an ox!" This just illustrates the =
power of the brain to transmit thoughts of either well being or illness. =
There are many more stories that I am sure people have heard and scoffed =
at.
Just because it cannot be measured with a machine and with scientific =
methods, does not mean it doesn't work.
Have a great one
Kristene
From: IN%"Simon.Gadbois@ns.sympatico.ca" "Simon Gadbois" 1-OCT-1999 06:57:59.23
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"ETHOLOGY@SEGATE.SUNET.SE"
CC: IN%"fentress@is.dal.ca"
Subj: (S-)VHS to CD transfers
Hi,
For over 25 years now Dr. John Fentress's laboratory at Dalhousie University
has accumulated hundreds of VHS and S-VHS tapes of wolves. The laboratory
is interested in transferring most of this archival data to CD's, as long as
video analysis is still possible from the CD's themsleves. (n.b., understand
that we are worried about video degradation over time, and that we are also
aware that CD's are not for ever...)
We are interested to know if anybody had any experience doing this and:
1. Was it worth the time and cost?
2. What software/hardware package was used to write and encode the files?
3. Related question: what format was used to encode (i.e., MPEG?)?
4. Analyses from the CD's: how and/or with what software/hardware? (we
have been using The Observer Pro for a while now).
Any comments or suggestions will be very appreciated, if possible, reply to
Fentress & Gadbois directly
thank you,
S.G.
--
Simon Gadbois
Department of Psychology
Fentress Ethology Lab
Life Science Building
Dalhousie University
Nova Scotia, B3H 4J1
mailto:Simon.Gadbois@ns.sympatico.ca
mailto:Simon@Gadbois.com
http://Simon.Gadbois.com
Box 53
Shad Bay, Nova Scotia
B3T 2B8
From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 1-OCT-1999 07:00:01.87
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: JIR
At 06:53 PM 09/30/1999 -0700, Bill Campbell wrote:
>Hi All
>
>Great discussion re, science.
>
>Can someone tell me if the Journal of Irreproducible Results is still
>published? My subscription lapsed several years ago with the issue that
>investigated the mysterious matings among the side-hill gougers of the
>Olympic penninsula.
Go to:
http://www.jir.com/
Vivian
another former subscriber, thinking of re upping.....
Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years --
interested in everything to do with science,
especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net
From: IN%"jgardner@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Jennifer Gardner" 1-OCT-1999 07:58:53.94
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: (Fwd) Livestock handling and stress
I have enjoyed the interesting discussion about the biological
background of techniques of livestock handling. The question
whether such alternative methods would be less stressful for the
animals than conventional methods is interesting. My question is:
wouldn't we expect animals to be better adapted to cope with
stressors of a type which they have evolved to deal with, than
artificial stressors imposed upon them only when they are in the
hands of humans? For instance, the everpresent risk of predators
is something wild animals have to live with, and so I would expect
that they can handle that fairly well. Restraint, on the other hand,
would be encountered in nature only in very extreme situations
(being caught by a predator), where it would be critical for survival
to escape and so activation of major reactions would be expected.
Besides being part of conventional handling techniques where
animals are caught or herded into small paddocks, such restraint
is in fact what many animals experience continuously in intensive
housing systems...
I would appreciate your comments on this!
Best wishes
Anna
Anna Olsson
Dept of Animal Environment and Health
Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences
P O Box 234
532 23 Skara, Sweden
e-mail Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se
Until October 1999
c/o Dr Ian Duncan
Animal and Poultry Science
University of Guelph
Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1
Canada
From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 1-OCT-1999 08:16:23.77
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC: IN%"weiler@selway.umt.edu"
Subj: Heifer question
Please help my roommate field this question about cattle. It certainly
sounds like folklore to me. As a sheep producer, I smile when I add a set
of twin ewes to the flock. Is there a down side to twinning in cattle? Does
it bring us back to the discussion of in utereo influences on gender?
Thanks for any suggestions,
Peggy
>X-From_: weiler@selway.umt.edu Wed Sep 29 10:42:22 1999
>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:43:44 -0600 (MDT)
>From: Ann M Weiler
>To: Peggy Shunick
>Subject: Heifer question
>
>Peggy,
>I had a man come into the library who raises a few cattle every year. He
>told me that anytime a beef cow has twins and if either 1 or both of the
>twins is a girl she will be sterile. I guess the males won't be. I find
>this hard to believe but don't know where to start my research to find
>out, if you could ask on your list I would appreciate it.
>Thanks
>Ann Weiler
>Reference Technician
>Mansfield Library at the College of Technology
>
>
Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick
BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy)
PO Box 844
Arlee MT 59821-0844
USA
406-726-3342
arl3342@montana.com
From: IN%"hauss@iastate.edu" "Mark F Haussmann" 1-OCT-1999 08:47:32.44
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: Heifer question
Peggy,
I think what you are refering to, is a process called a freemartin female
in which a female calf is co-twin to a male calf. This occurs in the cow
because there is an association between the placenta of the male and female
fetus. This will allow male hormones such as HY-antigen and antimullerian
hormone to cross from the male fetus through the placenta to the female
fetus. In the male, HY-antigen causes the development of the Sertoli and
Leydig cells, but in the female fetus it will result in the development of
an ovatestes. Antimullerian hormone normally regresses the female
reproductive tract in the male so that the male reproductive tract can
mature. But, this hormone in the female will result in an all or partially
regressed female reproductive tract so that only a vestibule is present,
thus she would be sterile.
An easy way to test and see if a female co-twin is sterile is to insert a
syringe into her vestibule and if it stops after going in a few inches you
know the rest of her reproductive tract is absent. This would not occur
though if both twins were female because these male hormones would not be
present. Hope that helps.
Mark F. Haussmann
Iowa State University
2355 Kildee Hall
Ames, IA 50011
hauss@iastate.edu
515-294-9093
From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 1-OCT-1999 09:08:51.54
To: IN%"jgardner@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "'Jennifer Gardner'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: Livestock (innate vs novelty)
This debate could pivot upon considerations of what is innate
in the animals repertoire of response to threat and how well
it is equipped to respond to novelty. What is in the Comparator
library of the bovine brain? Towards static but novel objects
there seems to be inquisitiveness and a tendency to eat things.
Moving novel objects may be another matter.
To my lasting mortification I terrorised a pasture of pregnant
heifers in Summer 1960 by entertaining a gang of us field
hands (returning by tractor and trailer) by blowing madly
on a hunting horn. A combination utterly alien to those beasts.
I realise now that the extreme novelty overwhelmed the
cattle's "matching" capacity and they bolted comprehensively.
So trapping cattle with an inescapable "novelty" could be very
punishing indeed. The ability to deal with innate threat in an
economical manner is good adaptation.
I would like some views on this if only to discover how awful
was the thing I did!
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: Jennifer Gardner [SMTP:jgardner@APS.UoGuelph.CA]
Sent: Friday, October 01, 1999 2:58 PM
To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: (Fwd) Livestock handling and stress
I have enjoyed the interesting discussion about the biological
background of techniques of livestock handling. The question
whether such alternative methods would be less stressful for the
animals than conventional methods is interesting. My question is:
wouldn't we expect animals to be better adapted to cope with
stressors of a type which they have evolved to deal with, than
artificial stressors imposed upon them only when they are in the
hands of humans? For instance, the everpresent risk of predators
is something wild animals have to live with, and so I would expect
that they can handle that fairly well. Restraint, on the other hand,
would be encountered in nature only in very extreme situations
(being caught by a predator), where it would be critical for survival
to escape and so activation of major reactions would be expected.
Besides being part of conventional handling techniques where
animals are caught or herded into small paddocks, such restraint
is in fact what many animals experience continuously in intensive
housing systems...
I would appreciate your comments on this!
Best wishes
Anna
Anna Olsson
Dept of Animal Environment and Health
Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences
P O Box 234
532 23 Skara, Sweden
e-mail Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se
Until October 1999
c/o Dr Ian Duncan
Animal and Poultry Science
University of Guelph
Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1
Canada
From: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler" 1-OCT-1999 09:40:40.95
To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" "W. Ray Stricklin"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net"
Subj: RE: JIR
Perhaps the article in question (Meat eating,fear,dogs...) was "Spam"?
H.U.G. Your dog!
Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas)
From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 1-OCT-1999 09:50:00.26
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: JIR
At 10:40 AM 10/01/1999 -0500, Jeanne Saddler wrote:
>Perhaps the article in question (Meat eating,fear,dogs...) was "Spam"?
>
>H.U.G. Your dog!
>Jeanne Saddler,
This is the funniest thing I've seen in quite a while.
Vivian
easily amused....
Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years --
interested in everything to do with science,
especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net
From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 1-OCT-1999 10:06:10.92
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net"
CC:
Subj: RE: More Meat Please
--- Robin Walker wrote:
> A lady from PETA with an American accent called
> Toni Vanelli was on our local BBC radio yesterday.
This is most odd. We, in the States, of course have PETA
spokespersons - but they most always seem to have a British accent!
It seems to me that the only logical conclusion that one can
make from such strong data is that diet somehow influences accent -
with some unidentified force within the Atlantic Ocean causing an
interaction effect.
Cheers.
Ray Stricklin
----------------------
W. Ray Stricklin
University of Maryland
From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 1-OCT-1999 10:36:23.84
To: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "'Jeanne Saddler'", IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" "W. Ray Stricklin"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca", IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "billcamp@cdsnet.net"
Subj: RE: JIR
I think the whole article is a dog's dinner and I wonder what
brought it up. I tried pulling the pork references but none
came up attached to Putzkoff.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeanne Saddler [SMTP:myriad@ksu.edu]
Sent: Friday, October 01, 1999 4:40 PM
To: W. Ray Stricklin
Cc: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca; billcamp@cdsnet.net
Subject: Re: JIR
Perhaps the article in question (Meat eating,fear,dogs...) was "Spam"?
H.U.G. Your dog!
Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas)
From: IN%"chris.gotman@sympatico.ca" 1-OCT-1999 11:42:23.37
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: Breaking free from APPLIED-ETHOLOGY
Are you locked into APPLIED-ETHOLOGY and you lost the key? Do you really
want out? Well, here's what you do:
In a new email message composition window,
enter:
applied-ethology-request@sask.usask.ca
in the "mail to:" field.
Leave the subject field blank.
In the body of the message, type:
UNSUBSCRIBE applied-ethology
Don't write anything else. No name, no signature file. That should do
it. Be sure NOT to send commands to applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca !
Note that you MUST send your "unsubscribe" command FROM the SAME address
as you sent your "subscribe" address. Sending the command from a new
forwarding address will not work. If you are on a Local Area Network
(like, a network of interconnected computers at a university), your
address may have changed slightly without your knowledge, and thus
making your efforts at unsubscribing fruitless. That makes escaping the
clutches of the list a little harder. :-)
suum cuique (really fast!)
chris gotman
From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 1-OCT-1999 12:11:37.50
To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: JIR
W. Ray Stricklin wrote:
>The article is entitled "Animal Stress Results in Meat
>Causing Disease," and I have copied below a couple of
>statements:
>
>"Stress, fear and pain when animals are being
>slaughtered or waiting to be slaughtered results in
>several disease processes in the humans which eat the
>meat. Most notable are cardiac problems, impotency and
>general fatigue. These adverse effects are most
>directly associated with consumption of dog meat."
>
>"Fear in animals during slaughter causes dramatic
>reduction of vitality and sexual potency in humans who
>eat the meat. Fortunately, humans have evolved to
>mainly eat animals which can be slaughtered with a
>minimum of stress. Consumption of emotional animals
>such as dogs is limited to a few primative societies.
>Therefore it is unlikely that dramatic reductions in
>health occurs as a result of slaughtering techniques."
>
>Now, some on this Applied Ethology group may question
>whether or not this article by Dr. Putzfoff of the
>Schmuckintush Lab should have been published, but I
>point out to you that he referenced highly creditable
>work including mine, Jeff Rushen's - not to mention 9
>Temple Grandin references - and a host of others.
>With such a reference list, you gotta believe it.
>
>My serious question is, What the heck was the purpose
>in writing this article? Was it intended to be a
>spoof on science? On eating meat? Or was it written
>just for fun - and I, being trained to seek purpose
>and function, am lost in trying to find some rational
>explanation for this article and ...
>
I can give you a possible explanation, but you will not find it palatable.
**If you are squeamish, please don't read any further.**
When I lived in Japan, I was told that the eating of dog meat was still
practiced in many Asian countries. One of the most horrid descriptions
that I was told had to do with the belief that the meat would taste better
if the dog was thrown alive into the oven-- this supposedly would leave
more blood in the legs thus improving the flavor (?). I never checked out
the validity of this practice, so I want to stress that what I am relating
here is here say. I'll admit that after seeing other indications of the
attitudes (or lack there-of) of many Asians towards animal suffering, I had
my suspicions and decided that I was too much a coward to find out if it
was really true.
It is also well known that the last wild tigers in the world are being
poached to extinction because of the demand in Chinese medicine for tiger
parts in potions to improve sexual prowess. If I were trying to alter
public opinion in Asia that eating dog meat, or inhumanely butchering them
was a bad idea, I might use the approach that this author has done, by
linking sexual potency to eating dogs.
I should also stress that not all Asians have a poor attitude towards
animal suffering, as evidenced by some *awesome* people that I met there
who are spreading the information about the benefits of the human-animal
bond, changing the traditional views on animals and a set of new animal
welfare laws that a number of Japanese animal welfare organizations are
working together to try to get passed in Japan. Japan is a cultural leader
in Asia and if the new laws can get passed there, it could spread to other
countries. Let us wish them luck and whatever help they may need.
Janice Willard DVM, MS
Moscow, Idaho
From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 1-OCT-1999 14:33:42.61
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: More Meat Please
At 12:05 PM 10/01/1999 -0400, W. Ray Stricklin wrote:
>--- Robin Walker wrote:
>> A lady from PETA with an American accent called
>> Toni Vanelli was on our local BBC radio yesterday.
>
>
>This is most odd. We, in the States, of course have PETA
>spokespersons - but they most always seem to have a British accent!
>
>It seems to me that the only logical conclusion that one can
>make from such strong data is that diet somehow influences accent -
>with some unidentified force within the Atlantic Ocean causing an
>interaction effect.
>
>Cheers.
>
>Ray Stricklin
Nonsense!!
It's just that Americans go to Britian, and the Brits come here.
Obviously, because a prophet is without honor in his own country.
Vivian
Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years --
interested in everything to do with science,
especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net
From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 1-OCT-1999 14:34:50.26
To: IN%"orion1432@juno.com"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: Scientific bias & Rupert Sheldrake
>>> "D. B. Cameron" 09/30 6:19 pm >>>
Agreed . . . . ideally. However, on a practical basis it seems that too =
often only those with heavy credentials and reputation are ALLOWED to =
argue. >>>
I agree that this is a problem, and it may be widespread.=20
There have
been a number of surveys showing that well known people=20
from prestigious institutes are generally treated more favourably=20
than others. Some journals now try to hide the identity of
authors of papers that are submitted in the hope that
reviewers will be fairer. I think it is a good idea.
Jeff Rushen
**************************************************
Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D.
Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre,
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada,
PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East,
Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3
Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206
Fax. 1-819-5645507
Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca
**************************************************
From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 1-OCT-1999 14:47:18.32
To: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: Rupert Sheldrake and science
>>> Hans Erhard 09/30 8:57 am >>>
What's wrong with someone publishing a paper which may have flaws in the =
experimental set-up and someone else attaching a note to that paper =
explaining the flaws? That way, the debate would be public, and we could =
all join and see which side has the better arguments. >>>
I think this is a good idea, at least in theory. Unfortunately,=20
average rejection rates are around 50% so publishing all
articles would double the number published, which might be
difficult for paper journals. It would be more feasible for
electronic journals, and I think it would be a great idea to
have an e-journal that published articles and included the
original versions, referees' comments, authors' rebuttals, editors'
decsions etc.=20
I am sure not many people would read it, but at least it would be =
available for those interested.
It would increase the transparency of the editing
process, and probably encourage reviewers and editors to be
a little more careful in their decision making.
I understand that NIH had a plan to set up an electronic
preprint server, which would publish all articles received,
dividing those into reviewed and accepted, reviewed and
rejected, and non-reviewed, allowing the readers to make up
their own minds.
One problem: like Hans I feel reasonably competent at making
up my own mind as to the soundness of articles in my own area.
But when I read articles in neurobiology etc. I am not able to
judge whether correct methods were used, whether the data
are plausible or not, and so I rely quite a lot on the "authority"
of such journals, in deciding whether to believe the results or not.
Jeff
**************************************************
Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D.
Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre,
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada,
PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East,
Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3
Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206
Fax. 1-819-5645507
Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca
**************************************************
From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 1-OCT-1999 19:32:19.30
To: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: JIR -- naet for allergies --
Thursday, September 30, 1999 6:53 PM, Bill Campbell wrote:
> Speaking of hard-to-believe, unscientifically measurable phenomena, anyone
> with allergies might be interested in looking at the testimonials at
> http://allergy-naet.com
> Especially interesting is the one from David Minkoff, MD, in So. Cal., who
> intends to publish a paper of his clinical results. I wish him luck;
> because two treatments [with at least ten more to go] have almost doubled
> my extrinsically asthmatic lung capacity, as measured on a peak flow
meter.
and from Robin Walker, Thursday, September 30, 1999:
> The problem with the PR of Cures is that only success is trumpeted. There
is no market for the failures of Unorthodoxy. This is because the universal
response is "well what did you expect?"
hello,
i thought of this naet treatment when i read Robin Walker's post. thank
you, Bill, for this reference; i'll check it out.
as to the "aggravation" you are having -- this is what i've been told from
time to time when i've used various homeopathic formulations for one of my
hounds: "oh, it will just take some time to kick in." by that time, the
rash has spread or the itch increased.
now, mind you, i know instances where i believe homeopathic remedies have
been effective, but when they are not -- well......
my own vet said to me, if it worked all the time, we'd all use it. my
personal philosophy is invariably less is more of whatever one is using.
good luck with the asthma.
margory
From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 2-OCT-1999 08:54:45.28
To: IN%"margory@dnai.com"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: JIR -- naet for allergies --
On Fri, 01 Oct 1999 17:47:02 -0700 margory cohen
writes:
> Thursday, September 30, 1999 6:53 PM, Bill Campbell wrote:
>
> my personal philosophy is invariably less is more of whatever one is
using.
>
> margory
>
>
Does that apply to love, sex, crisp fall days, and even ice cream?
^ ^ D. B. Cameron, DVM
< \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic In
vino veritas.
! ! Middleburg Hts., Ohio
In cervisio felicitas.
.. 440.826.0013
From: IN%"cumpa@favanet.com.ar" 3-OCT-1999 06:27:56.77
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology"
CC:
Subj: Pinnipedos
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--Boundary_(ID_ZrGjm2UVIzP8qDSjwpiqKA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Thirty dead seals were discovered in the Atlantic coast of Buenos =
Aires-Argentina. This happened twenty days ago. We took samples from =
their bodies (looking for the reason of that) and we found a penguin =
into one of the furl seal=B4s stomach them. For my kowledge the furl =
seal doesn=B4t eat penguins. I want to know if you have any idea about =
this kind of feeding.=20
Do you have any recent reports about massive deaths like this?
I need also some information about digestive parasites in this animal.
Thanks in advance.
--Boundary_(ID_ZrGjm2UVIzP8qDSjwpiqKA)
Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Thirty =
dead seals=20
were discovered in the Atlantic coast of Buenos Aires-Argentina. This =
happened=20
twenty days ago. We took samples from their bodies (looking for the =
reason of=20
that) and we found a penguin into one of the furl seal=B4s stomach =
them. For=20
my kowledge the furl seal doesn=B4t eat penguins. I want to know if you =
have any=20
idea about this kind of feeding.

Do you =
have any=20
recent reports about massive deaths like this?

I need =
also some=20
information about digestive parasites in this =
animal.

Thanks =
in=20
advance.

--Boundary_(ID_ZrGjm2UVIzP8qDSjwpiqKA)--
From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 3-OCT-1999 19:07:16.99
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: quick note on the Sheldrake book --
hello -
san francisco examiner/chronicle book section today had the full back page
for an ad for the sheldrake book. esp. (oops -- better write that out)
especially after posts here this week, the 2 promotional quotes in the ad
were from elizabeth marshall thomas and jeffrey mousaieff masson. now, i'm
not shooting any arrows at either one of them, but i sure did think of many
of you.
all the best,
margory
From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 3-OCT-1999 19:13:26.18
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: quick note on the Sheldrake book --
At 05:47 PM 10/03/1999 -0700, margory cohen wrote:
>hello -
>
>san francisco examiner/chronicle book section today had the full back page
>for an ad for the sheldrake book. esp. (oops -- better write that out)
>especially after posts here this week, the 2 promotional quotes in the ad
>were from elizabeth marshall thomas and jeffrey mousaieff masson. now, i'm
>not shooting any arrows at either one of them, but i sure did think of many
>of you.
>
>all the best,
>margory
Don't know Masson.
but if Eliz M Thomas likes it I don't want to read it.
Her book was one that I threw against the wall at least ten times while
reading it.
Anybody who would let a Husky belonging to somebody else wander thru the
street of Cambridge, just following on a bike, to see what the dog did, was
not my kind of person.
Vivian
Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years --
interested in everything to do with science,
especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net
From: IN%"d.b.morton@bham.ac.uk" "David Morton" 4-OCT-1999 04:30:45.72
To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: More Meat Please
Well Ray,
Since Australia cut down on taking our undeisrable ................
David
>--- Robin Walker wrote:
>> A lady from PETA with an American accent called
>> Toni Vanelli was on our local BBC radio yesterday.
>
>
>This is most odd. We, in the States, of course have PETA
>spokespersons - but they most always seem to have a British accent!
>
>It seems to me that the only logical conclusion that one can
>make from such strong data is that diet somehow influences accent -
>with some unidentified force within the Atlantic Ocean causing an
>interaction effect.
>
>Cheers.
>
>Ray Stricklin
>
>----------------------
>W. Ray Stricklin
>University of Maryland
Prof. David B. Morton,
Head Centre for Biomedical Ethics, Division of Primary Care, Public and
Occupational Health,
(Director Biomedical Services Unit)
University of Birmingham,
Edgbaston,
Birmingham
B15 2TT
UK
Tel. + 44 (0)121 414 3616/4517
Fax + 44 (0)121 414 6979/6842
Email
From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 4-OCT-1999 08:20:48.50
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting"
CC:
Subj: Pigs - soiling the lying area
Further to our recent discussion on this aspect of problematic swine
behaviour, I have put together, with the help of Dale Arey & Nick White, a
web-page summary of experiences & suggestions at:
http://www.pighealth.com/dunging.htm
Regards,
Mike Meredith
From: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen?=" 6-OCT-1999 00:51:48.82
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: The rejection rate of scientific papers....
Dear all,
Jeff Rushen wrote:
"Unfortunately, average rejection rates [of scientific papers] are around
50%..."
This made me wonder why that is. For those of you, who are not trying to do
research for a living, the publication of scientific papers in peer-reviewed
journals (that is, journals where you paper will be sent to one or two
colleagues, whose identity is not known to you, for evaluation) is the main
'currency' on which you are assessed as a scientist. So how come 50% of
what is submitted is rejected? I realise this may be a rough estimate, and
vary between journals, but for the sake of the argument (and easy maths)
let's stick to 50%. I asked a few colleagues (whose identity I did know)
and below are some of the suggestions we came up with, some of them not to
be taken too seriously:
1) Half of the papers written are crap. But then, surely, scientists by now
must know what it takes to get a paper accepted? (Then again, maybe half of
the scientists submitting papers are crap and people never learn
anything?).
2) Most, if not all, researchers have had papers rejected, but no-one has
admitted to having over 50% rejected - but somebody must have a somewhat
higher rejection rate, no? A lot of colleagues do admit to recommend
rejection for about 50% of the papers that they have been sent to referee.
3) The papers which are rejected, get re-submitted to other journals, where
they also get rejected, and thus it is the SAME 50% which keep circulating
the journal-scene.
4) If the carpark is big enough for 50 cars, then the first 50 that arrive
get in. Arriving earlier, however, is not a way of fitting 150 cars into
it. The question remains: What is the selection criterion? For cars it's
the order of arrivng. For papers?
5) If 50% get accepted, maybe we can increase our chance of getting a paper
accepted by submitting enough crap, thus pushing the good ones into the top
50%?
Any comments (especially from Editors or ex-Editors of journals, who may
hold the key to the answer)?
Regards,
Birte
____________________________________________
Birte L Nielsen
Senior Scientist
Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare
Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences
Research Centre Foulum
PO Box 50
DK-8830 Tjele
Phone: (0045) 8999 1373
Fax: (0045) 8999 1500
Email: birte.nielsen@agrsci.dk
From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 6-OCT-1999 04:58:16.67
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: publication rates
Dear Birte and others,
The story regarding publication rates and getting our cutting-edge
science read by others gets worse! I was rather shocked to read last
night that in the psychology literature, 55% of publications are never
subsequently cited (K. Shapiro, Animal Models of Human Psychology:
Critique of Science, Ethics and Policy). I have no idea if this
statistic is the same for publications in applied animal behaviour
science...but one can only imagine the worse.
Any other ethologists else out there feeling rather unread, undervalued
and unloved!
----------------------
Dr Chris Sherwin Ph.D.
Division of Animal Health and Husbandry
University of Bristol
Langford House
Langford
Bristol
BS40 5DU
Phone: (0117) 928 9486
Fax: (0117) 928 9582
E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk
From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 6-OCT-1999 05:06:24.38
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: The rejection rate of scientific papers....
At 08:57 AM 10/06/1999 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>Jeff Rushen wrote:
>"Unfortunately, average rejection rates [of scientific papers] are around
>50%..."
According to Harlan Ellison, ninety percent of everything is crap.
Which means that there are a lot of crappy papers getting into journals.
Vivian
off to jury duty
Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years --
interested in everything to do with science,
especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net
From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 6-OCT-1999 08:35:18.87
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: looking for Jeremy Marchant
Anyone knowing the whereabouts of Jeremy Marchant or his current
email address, please contact me.
Jeff Rushen
**************************************************
Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D.
Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre,
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada,
PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East,
Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3
Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206
Fax. 1-819-5645507
Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca
**************************************************
From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 6-OCT-1999 09:00:37.04
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: found Jeremy Marchant
I am amazed how many people know Jeremy Marchant's email.
Thank you all. I have found him.
**************************************************
Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D.
Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre,
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada,
PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East,
Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3
Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206
Fax. 1-819-5645507
Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca
**************************************************
From: IN%"JNM@dmu.ac.uk" "Jeremy Marchant" 6-OCT-1999 09:07:21.06
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: found Jeremy Marchant
What's so amazing, Jeff?
When you hold the ISAE purse-strings, everyone wants to be your friend!!
Either that or they want to know where their AABS copies have got to....!
Jeremy ;-)
----------------------------------------------------
Dr. Jeremy Marchant,
School of Agriculture,
De Montfort University,
Caythorpe,
Grantham,
Lincs., NG32 3 EP, UK.
+44 1400 275682
jnm@dmu.ac.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Rushen [SMTP:rushenj@EM.AGR.CA]
> Sent: 06 October 1999 15:55
> To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
> Subject: found Jeremy Marchant
>
> I am amazed how many people know Jeremy Marchant's email.
> Thank you all. I have found him.
> **************************************************
> Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D.
> Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre,
> Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada,
> PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East,
> Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3
> Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206
> Fax. 1-819-5645507
> Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca
> **************************************************
From: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" 6-OCT-1999 12:26:31.46
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: fossil rim
Hello All,
Just wondering if anyone on this list works at Fossil Rim. I seem to
remember "talking" with someone before about it. We have an intern at our
elephant farm, currently, who is a graduate from University of Miami at
Coral Gables with a biology degree, who is looking for an apprenticeship or
a full time position working with animals. She will be leaving here around
Christmas after a 6 month internship with us.
Any or all suggestions are welcome. She is actively searching for positions
and postings regarding positions.=20
Thanks,
Sheree Walters
=20
From: IN%"rayenna_rhys@flad.com" "Rayenna Rhys" 6-OCT-1999 12:40:24.91
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group"
CC:
Subj: Looking for Journals to Subscribe to
--Boundary_(ID_Q9xKtqB02VZFDF+hxbtTqw)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
This is Rayenna--that architectural firm librarian. Our lab/research
people asked me to find a journal or two for us to subscribe to that
focuses on large animals. Obviously we are interested in facility
design information, but we are used to reading science publications and
inferring how the information would affect the facility we design so
please don't be put off and just say there is no such thing. On the
other hand, we get Laboratory Animal Science (because of AALAS
memberships) and this journal really is too scientific, too research
oriented for us to even be able to infer anything from the articles.
Are there publications a little less formally scientific (can't think of
a better phrase) that anyone would recommend? I did try calling the
AVMA but, for some reason, am having an impossible time actually
connecting with a real, live person to speak to. Any other bright ideas
you may have to help us educate oursevles would be appreciated as well.
Thanks
Rayenna Rhys
Flad & Associates
Madison, WI
--Boundary_(ID_Q9xKtqB02VZFDF+hxbtTqw)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
This is Rayenna--that architectural firm librarian. Our lab/research
people asked me to find a journal or two for us to subscribe to that focuses
on large animals. Obviously we are interested in facility design
information, but we are used to reading science publications and inferring
how the information would affect the facility we design so please don't
be put off and just say there is no such thing. On the other hand,
we get Laboratory Animal Science (because of AALAS memberships)
and this journal really is too scientific, too research oriented for us
to even be able to infer anything from the articles. Are there publications
a little less formally scientific (can't think of a better phrase) that
anyone would recommend? I did try calling the AVMA but, for some
reason, am having an impossible time actually connecting with a real, live
person to speak to. Any other bright ideas you may have to help us
educate oursevles would be appreciated as well.

Thanks

Rayenna Rhys
Flad & Associates
Madison, WI
--Boundary_(ID_Q9xKtqB02VZFDF+hxbtTqw)--
From: IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu" "Joseph P. Garner" 6-OCT-1999 13:19:24.77
To: IN%"rayenna_rhys@flad.com" "'Rayenna Rhys'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group"
CC:
Subj: RE: Looking for Journals to Subscribe to
Hi Rayenna, you might like to look into the publications from an american
charity called "the shape of enrichment"
http://enrichment.org/index.html
They have a quarterly publication, that i have not seen, so i can't
reccommend one way or another. Their conference proceedings however often
contain some very interesting work.
cheers
Joe
___________________________
Joseph Garner
Univeristy of California
Department of Animal Science
One Shields Avenue
Davis
CA 95616
USA
Phone: (530) 754 5291
-----Original Message-----
From: Rayenna Rhys [mailto:rayenna_rhys@flad.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 11:39 AM
To: Applied Ethology Discussion Group
Subject: Looking for Journals to Subscribe to
This is Rayenna--that architectural firm librarian. Our lab/research people
asked me to find a journal or two for us to subscribe to that focuses on
large animals. Obviously we are interested in facility design information,
but we are used to reading science publications and inferring how the
information would affect the facility we design so please don't be put off
and just say there is no such thing. On the other hand, we get Laboratory
Animal Science (because of AALAS memberships) and this journal really is too
scientific, too research oriented for us to even be able to infer anything
from the articles. Are there publications a little less formally scientific
(can't think of a better phrase) that anyone would recommend? I did try
calling the AVMA but, for some reason, am having an impossible time actually
connecting with a real, live person to speak to. Any other bright ideas you
may have to help us educate oursevles would be appreciated as well.
Thanks
Rayenna Rhys
Flad & Associates
Madison, WI
From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 6-OCT-1999 19:15:00.68
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group"
CC:
Subj: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please
hello,
often i refer to my abrantes or other books with wolf or dog drawings with
interpretations of a particular expression for body language, as it were.
mouth blows by a dog-- i can't find where i've seen this. what i'm
picturing is the dog, for instance, my deerhound will be serious and usually
focused on perhaps food? or another object of desire -- and there will a
puffing thru the sides of the mouth with a poof of air.
anyone have a moment to direct me to reasonable interpretation or offer me
simple explanation?
how a yawn from a dog could show not a stressful attitude (or in a person
one who is really bored with my question;-).
thanks,
margory
From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 6-OCT-1999 19:23:07.74
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group"
CC:
Subj: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please
hello,
often i refer to my abrantes or other books with wolf or dog drawings with
interpretations of a particular expression for body language, as it were.
mouth blows by a dog-- i can't find where i've seen this. what i'm
picturing is the dog, for instance, my deerhound will be serious and usually
focused on perhaps food? or another object of desire -- and there will a
puffing thru the sides of the mouth with a poof of air.
anyone have a moment to direct me to reasonable interpretation or offer me
simple explanation?
how a yawn from a dog could show not a stressful attitude (or in a person
one who is really bored with my question;-).
thanks,
margory
From: IN%"AShaad@aol.com" 6-OCT-1999 22:12:52.88
To: IN%"margory@dnai.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please
Margory,
I believe I have seen the behavior you are describing in wolves. I work
at a captive education/research facility with wolves. With one male wolf
(born 1995) in particular I seen what I have called puffy or floppy lips.
Usually I notice this when I am vigorously scratching him along his neck or
chest. He will stand with his neck out stretched and then I hear/see his
lips "flop" In many instances it is done in conjunction with a higher
ranking wolf in the area - I have yet to isolate the behavior to see if it is
related to the approach of the higher ranking animal ( a male with whom he
"does not got along with") So in my case it can either have to do with
"pleasure" ( scratching, food) or concern ( approach of another wolf,
conflict). manda
From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 7-OCT-1999 09:38:12.62
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 9:12 PM by Manda:
> I believe I have seen the behavior you are describing in wolves. I
work
> at a captive education/research facility with wolves.
///
So in my case it can either have to do with
> "pleasure" ( scratching, food) or concern ( approach of another wolf,
> conflict).
ah, Manda,
thank you so much for responding.
lucky you, your job.
interesting to hear this back. my deerhound's object of desire would fall in
to the realm of pleasure too. will be more alert to where her sister is
when i see this again. b/c i've not seen in out in the world in general;
usually only here at home.
almost a persistence to it.
thank you.
margory
From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 7-OCT-1999 10:09:56.29
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please
marjory...
I see this in my husky/shepherd frequently.
Curious, isn't it?
He remains very still while 'mouthblowing'...I attribute it
to a form of very focused sniffing...Something seems to have caught
his attention and...not unlike a cigar smoker who taste-puffs his
cigar...the dog seems to be sampling the scent with mouth and
nasal passages in a concentrated manner.
Just a guess...but as near as I can figure!
Donna Reynolds
From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 7-OCT-1999 10:16:33.59
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting"
CC:
Subj: Behaviour of Hogs: excreting in the lying area
I have added a reference list, and contributions from Dr. Harold Gonyou of
the Prairie Swine Centre
and Dr. Nabil Brandl of the Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences, to
the web page on excretory behavior of swine at:
http://www.pighealth.com/dunging.htm
Thanks
Mike Meredith
From: IN%"emilypk@bumail.bradley.edu" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 7-OCT-1999 10:28:27.07
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please
> He remains very still while 'mouthblowing'...I attribute it
> to a form of very focused sniffing...Something seems to have caught
> his attention and...not unlike a cigar smoker who taste-puffs his
> cigar...the dog seems to be sampling the scent with mouth and
> nasal passages in a concentrated manner.
> Just a guess...but as near as I can figure!
>
Rats show a similar behaviour. Audible deep breathing for several cycles
with the mouth open. It is interpreting the same way as passing a large
volume of air over the nasal membranes.
Another human equivalent is how wine drinkers will hold a mouthful and suck
air over it, to get a better sensation of the taste.
Emily
From: IN%"bergerulr@bluewin.ch" "Berger Ulrich" 7-OCT-1999 11:00:06.63
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please - still another question
Donna Reynolds wrote:
>
> marjory...
> I see this in my husky/shepherd frequently.
> Curious, isn't it?
> He remains very still while 'mouthblowing'...I attribute it
> to a form of very focused sniffing...Something seems to have caught
> his attention and...not unlike a cigar smoker who taste-puffs his
> cigar...the dog seems to be sampling the scent with mouth and
> nasal passages in a concentrated manner.
> Just a guess...but as near as I can figure!
>
> Donna Reynolds
Dear all,
reading "very focused sniffing" and "sampling the scent with mouth and
nasal passages" I had an idea: There is the vomeronasal organ
(Jacobsohnsches Organ) between mouth and nose, this mouth blowing might
be related to pheromones. Does anybody know more about this in dogs?
Dr. med. vet. Ulrich Berger
Thunstr.43
CH-3510 Konolfingen, Switzerland
Phone +41 31 791 27 27, fax +41 31 791 39 04
email
From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 7-OCT-1999 15:15:31.53
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: legislation on culled dairy cows
I am looking for some information on European legislation
relating to the transport of culled dairy cattle especially=20
"downers" i.e. non-ambulatory cattle.=20
Grateful for any help etc.
Jeff Rushen
**************************************************
Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D.
Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre,
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada,
PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East,
Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3
Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206
Fax. 1-819-5645507
Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca
**************************************************
From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@UManitoba.CA" "Nora Lewis" 7-OCT-1999 15:23:54.78
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Anim. Behav. Sci."
CC:
Subj: Observer
All,
I am thinking about purchasing a Noldus Observer Video-Pro which is
supposed to make collecting data from video tapes quicker, and with
fewer errors. I would appreciate any comments on this system. Is it
worth $5,000 (American.). Are there other systems on the market which
people like?
Nora
--
Nora Lewis, Ph.D., DVM
Department of Animal Science,
University of Manitoba,
12 Dafoe Rd.,
Winnipeg, Manitoba,
Canada. R3T 2N2
phone: 204 474-9443
fax: 204 474-7628
From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 7-OCT-1999 18:45:34.28
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please - still anotherquestion
From: Berger Ulrich, Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 6:08 PM:
> reading "very focused sniffing" and "sampling the scent with mouth and
> nasal passages" I had an idea: There is the vomeronasal organ
> (Jacobsohnsches Organ) between mouth and nose, this mouth blowing might
> be related to pheromones. Does anybody know more about this in dogs?
hello Berger - Donna, Manda, Michael -
when my dhs are phemanizing, there seem to be a cluster of quick short
inhales and then sometimes even some teeth chattering (forgive me, but sort
of like anthony hopkins in "silence of the lambs", not so lethal
however;-)).
with the blows, no teeth or inhales, it all seems to be coming out.
thank you so much for considering this.
your comments and observations totally welcome and appreciated.
margory
From: IN%"Lene.Munksgaard@agrsci.dk" "Lene Munksgaard" 8-OCT-1999 06:28:10.69
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'"
CC:
Subj: ecological farming in denmark
Hi Jeff and others
Price of ecological milk in denmark is approx. 7,25 kr/l compared to 4,25
kr/l for unecological milk. More information about Danish Organic Farming
can be found at www.ecoweb.dk/english.
Have a nice weekend,
Lene Munksgaard
From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 8-OCT-1999 11:15:14.37
To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: Fw: Re: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please
^ ^ D. B. Cameron, DVM
< \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic In
vino veritas.
! ! Middleburg Hts., Ohio
In cervisio felicitas.
.. 440.826.0013
marjory...
I see this in my husky/shepherd frequently.
Curious, isn't it?
He remains very still while 'mouthblowing'...I attribute it
to a form of very focused sniffing...Something seems to have caught
his attention and...not unlike a cigar smoker who taste-puffs his
cigar...the dog seems to be sampling the scent with mouth and
nasal passages in a concentrated manner.
Just a guess...but as near as I can figure!
Donna Reynolds
This sounds like it could be a flehmann (sp?) activity, especially if it
is associated with a rhythmic jaw flexing (best noted by watching the
temporal muscles) or even a jaw "shivering" or chattering action.
DBC
From: IN%"JSWANSON@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" 8-OCT-1999 12:44:05.53
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: (Fwd) trapping research
Dear Colleagues,
A student has given permission to me to post a request(below)on the
applied ethology listserv. I am not aware of the research literature
on trapping animals (leg hold devices) and the physiological changes
that are induced when an animal is trapped. Is anyone aware of
research that has measured, for example, stress responses in animals
while trapped in a leghold device? Thank you for your assistance. (I
have slightly edited the message to get directly to the request and
to remove the student's personal information.. University policy)
Janice Swanson
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date sent: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:22:46 -0500 (CDT)
To: jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu
Subject: trapping research
Dear Dr. Swanson,
I am currently enrolled in Physiological Adaptations of Animals in
which I am to present material of current research dealing with some
aspect of physiological processes. My background experience deals
heavily with the trapping of animals, and it has always been an
interest of mine as to what changes occur in the animal when it is
trapped. Current research related to the effects of trapping on the
physiological processes of animals is what I'm looking for. Any
response is appreciated and I hope to hear from you soon.
Sincerely,
From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 8-OCT-1999 14:24:01.42
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: Re: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please
From: D. B. Cameron, Friday, October 08, 1999,
> This sounds like it could be a flehmann (sp?) activity, especially if it
> is associated with a rhythmic jaw flexing (best noted by watching the
> temporal muscles) or even a jaw "shivering" or chattering action.
hello D.B.
and sincere thanks for your observation.
appreciate being able to ask and all of you replying.
i will keep watch here and next time see the blows look to the jaw as well
to see what i can.
i can't get enough of these deerhounds;-)).
a few mornings during this last late winter in san francisco bay actually
saw for the first time a young grey whale "blow" -- i have to say i felt a
bit charged the entire day from that sight. no tail, alas, but the back and
the blows.
all the best,
margory
From: IN%"jessnbob@pop.ihug.co.nz" "J van der pol and bobby Allsop[" 10-OCT-1999 14:50:28.87
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: greetings
Dear members, I am a new subscriber just wishing to introduce myself to you
all. I am a Masters student at the University of Waikato, N.Z. My interests
include animal behaviour and welfare, with a particular interest in both
cats and dogs. I am currently deciding on my thesis topic for next year and
have decided to study urine spraying in cats, which I believe is a big
problem for many cat owners. If anyone knows of any good papers on this
topic I would appreciate a reply,
Thanking you in advance,
Jessica.
From: IN%"sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch" 12-OCT-1999 05:57:40.86
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: new member
My name is Sabine Gebhardt and I just started working in a new group of
zoologists and vets at the University of Berne, Swizerland. Our main topic
is the study of extreme breeding forms of pets, especially budgerigars,
canaries, and golden hamsters. We are interested in anatomical,
physiological, and behavioral differences of these extreme races compared to
the wild-type. Our group just started one week ago, so we are now in the
process of getting settled in and browsing through the literature.
Therefore, we welcome to hear from others working on that topic and we are
interested in literature about extreme breeding forms (races) of budgies,
canaries, and hamsters.
From: IN%"mni1445u@postoffice.uri.edu" "Murn Nippo" 12-OCT-1999 13:23:14.96
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: UK Internships
Hello all:
I have several undergraduate students who are interested in doing an
internship in the UK in wildlife rehabilitation or a related area.. I
would appreciate any
sources that would give us a start at finding some opportunities.
thank you,
Murn Nippo
--
Dr. Murn M. Nippo
FAVS Department, University of Rhode Island
Woodward Hall, Kingston, RI 02881 USA
Phone 401-874-2940 (voice) 401 874-4017 (fax) murn@uri.edu (E-Mail)
http://www.uri.edu/cels/favs_home/mn.html
From: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan" 13-OCT-1999 11:14:22.78
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: Intro/rat heaven
Hi,
My name is Catriona Ryan and I am re-subscribing to this
list after being unsubscribed when I was off work some
months ago. My main interest for a number of years has been
cognitive processing in birds (specifically pigeons and
domestic chickens). However, this being a deeply
unfashinable area with funding bodies and the like, I have
also turned my hand to various other activities connected
with applied ethology and natural history generally, such
as designing projects for primary schoolkids, helping
friends with problem pets, running activity sessions for
children and so forth.
I am currently engaged in designing the perfect enclosure
for a pair of pet rats which ahve hitherto been kept in a
somewhat stressful environment. The basic space will be
large enough for the owners to walk into if they wish and
we plan to cover the floor with approximately 10cm of
woodshavings, shredded newspaper, loose polystyrene packing
material (e.g.'chips') or similar. Ideally, I would like to
add hay to this mix, but when I have used it in the past
with mice they have developed skin irritations which often
caused them to scratch themselves raw. Has anyone else had
this problem? Does it occur in rats as well? Has anyone got
any suggestions as to what else we could incorporate
in the substrate?
We would also like to provide the rats with some
environment enrichment. Again, we have some basic ideas
about this, but if anyone's rat out there has a particular
favourite 'toy' or similar, we'd like to hear about it!
Thanks a lot in advance,
Catriona
----------------------
Catriona Ryan
University of Exeter
School of Psychology
Washington Singer Laboratories
Exeter EX4 4QG
U.K.
Tel: +44 1392 264620
E-mails: c.m.e.ryan@exeter.ac.uk
or: catriona@ryaninc.freeserve.co.uk
From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 13-OCT-1999 12:21:12.57
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan"
CC:
Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven
Hello Catriona!
I breed rats and have found the following rat toys and
diversions to be a hit:
- paper (especially tissue paper (white only - don't use dyes) or
shredded office paper). Kleenex, paper towels, etc work well also
- cardboard boxes
- rawhide chews
- numerous plastic boxes (easily cleaned) with an entrance and exit
hole for playing, hiding and sleeping. Great to hide food and they
have to search for the food (don't let them see where you put it!
- cloth. They LOVE cloth especially cotton
- various levels of platforms for climbing and jumping. These could
be wood, large diameter rope, some wires if the gauge is large enough
(preferably plastic coated)
Deb
dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca
Deborah A. McWilliams
B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc
Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph
Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7
From: IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu" "Garner, Joseph P." 13-OCT-1999 12:52:53.78
To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "'Deborah McWilliams'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan"
CC:
Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven
Well, here's my ha'pennies worth...
Wrom working with voles (which are kind of mouse sized) i can make the
following reccomendations:
1. They love hay, they build the most amazing structures with it. We didn't
have the skin problems you describe.
2. Anything they can shred, they will shred, whether they enjoy doing this
is another matter. Deborah's point about dye is a good one. You should be
careful to avoid anything toxic, or undigestable. For that reason i would
advise against PVC coated wire. All those little bits of plastic inside a
rat can't be good. Paper towels are great for this.
3. You can also get these little blocks of wierd compact stuff that is sold
as lab mouse/rat "enrichment". It's probably some space shuttle program by
product, but anyway it shreds up to about ten times it's size into something
like cotton wool. I wasn't desparately impressed - the hay seemed a far more
"natural" substrate for this kind of behaviour - but there we are.
4. Many rodents are extremely agile animals exploiting a three-dimensional
substrate, and rats are no exception. For smaller rodents, you can get these
fantastic snap-together 3D mazes (e.g. "Habitrail") which you can build into
the most incredibly baroque structures. Again, the voles really interact
with this kind of device, and usually nest inside it. The advantage of the
snap together type of maze is that you can change the arrangement around
every now and again. For the rats you could build all sorts of platforms,
tubes, ladders, ropes. The more structural complexity the better. I remeber
seeing a really nice poster at the 1998 ISAE on this kind of environment.
5. Manipulation of objects is another important part of rodent natural
history. You could definately think up some enrichment devices where food or
treats are hidden inside something that has to be manipulated or chewed
through (In nature, these devices are called "nuts")
6. Getting more elaborate you might like to give the animals some control
over their environment, by providing them with operants to control heat and
light for instance.
Anyway, hope that helps. Rodents are pretty amazing animals. In my old
department, there was an experimental psychologist who did all these
old-fashioned style maze experiments with rats which he picked up and put
down at the end and start of each trial. With all that variability and
enrichment they were incredible animals.
cheers
Joe.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Deborah McWilliams [mailto:DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 11:20 AM
> To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca; Catriona Ryan
> Subject: Re: Intro/rat heaven
>
>
> Hello Catriona!
> I breed rats and have found the following rat toys and
> diversions to be a hit:
>
> - paper (especially tissue paper (white only - don't use dyes) or
> shredded office paper). Kleenex, paper towels, etc work well also
> - cardboard boxes
> - rawhide chews
> - numerous plastic boxes (easily cleaned) with an entrance and exit
> hole for playing, hiding and sleeping. Great to hide food and they
> have to search for the food (don't let them see where you put it!
> - cloth. They LOVE cloth especially cotton
> - various levels of platforms for climbing and jumping. These could
> be wood, large diameter rope, some wires if the gauge is large enough
> (preferably plastic coated)
>
> Deb
>
>
>
>
>
> dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca
>
> Deborah A. McWilliams
> B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc
>
> Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph
> Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7
>
From: IN%"smillman@hsus.org" "Suzanne Millman" 13-OCT-1999 15:04:48.23
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: change of address for Suzanne Millman
For anyone trying to reach me these days, I have left the University of =
Guelph and am now at the address below.
Cheers,
Suzanne Millman
Suzanne Millman
Director of Scientific Programs
Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture Section
The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS)
2100 L Street, NW,=20
Washington, DC 20037
U.S.A.
TEL: 301-258-3114
FAX: 301-258-3081
EMAIL: smillman@hsus.org
From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 14-OCT-1999 02:33:26.26
To: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven
Dear Catriona and others,
When designing rodent housing, you might like to look at 'Refining
Rodent Husbandry: The Mouse' Lab. Anim. 32, 233-259 (1998) Jennings et
al. Although this was written specifically for the mouse, many of the
ideas are applicable to rats.
My own suggestion is that you consider giving the rats running wheels.
Also, tying in with Joe's idea, try giving them operant control of
running wheels - there's some really neat references to rodents
insisting on controlling running wheels, i.e turning them off when
experimenters turn them on, and turning them on when experimenters turn
them off!
Chris Sherwin
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:14:00 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Catriona Ryan
wrote:
> Hi,
> My name is Catriona Ryan and I am re-subscribing to this
> list after being unsubscribed when I was off work some
> months ago. My main interest for a number of years has been
> cognitive processing in birds (specifically pigeons and
> domestic chickens). However, this being a deeply
> unfashinable area with funding bodies and the like, I have
> also turned my hand to various other activities connected
> with applied ethology and natural history generally, such
> as designing projects for primary schoolkids, helping
> friends with problem pets, running activity sessions for
> children and so forth.
>
> I am currently engaged in designing the perfect enclosure
> for a pair of pet rats which ahve hitherto been kept in a
> somewhat stressful environment. The basic space will be
> large enough for the owners to walk into if they wish and
> we plan to cover the floor with approximately 10cm of
> woodshavings, shredded newspaper, loose polystyrene packing
> material (e.g.'chips') or similar. Ideally, I would like to
> add hay to this mix, but when I have used it in the past
> with mice they have developed skin irritations which often
> caused them to scratch themselves raw. Has anyone else had
> this problem? Does it occur in rats as well? Has anyone got
> any suggestions as to what else we could incorporate
> in the substrate?
>
> We would also like to provide the rats with some
> environment enrichment. Again, we have some basic ideas
> about this, but if anyone's rat out there has a particular
> favourite 'toy' or similar, we'd like to hear about it!
>
> Thanks a lot in advance,
> Catriona
>
> ----------------------
> Catriona Ryan
> University of Exeter
> School of Psychology
> Washington Singer Laboratories
> Exeter EX4 4QG
> U.K.
> Tel: +44 1392 264620
> E-mails: c.m.e.ryan@exeter.ac.uk
> or: catriona@ryaninc.freeserve.co.uk
>
----------------------
Dr Chris Sherwin Ph.D.
Division of Animal Health and Husbandry
University of Bristol
Langford House
Langford
Bristol
BS40 5DU
Phone: (0117) 928 9486
Fax: (0117) 928 9582
E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk
From: IN%"H.A.vandeweerd@las.vet.uu.nl" "H.A. van de Weerd" 14-OCT-1999 03:31:45.57
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven
Hi Catriona,
Another tip - in addition to the other useful tips- for your rats home.
Rats are extremely fond of digging and making burrows. You could give them
an opportunity for this by putting a large tub or basin in their enclosure
with a layer of diggable substrate in it (e.g. earth, sawdust mixed with
earth, other bedding materials), just try some mixtures to make the perfect
substrate.
About the skin irritations you describe for mice, I did not see this in
mice (at home or in the lab), maybe the hay was of poor quality or maybe
they got an ectoparasite from some other source. Are you sure they did not
nibble at each others fur? (hair-nibbling is seen in some laboratory
strains of mice).
Good luck, Heleen
==========================================
Dr. Ir. H.A. van de Weerd
Department of Laboratory Animal Science
PO Box 80.166
3508 TD Utrecht
Phone: ++ (0)30-2533818 (2033)
E-mail: h.a.vandeweerd@las.vet.uu.nl
==========================================
From: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Miss C.M. Nevison" 14-OCT-1999 04:39:28.00
To: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven
Hi Catriona and all,
Your planned rat enclosure does sound fantastic. I do wonder though
whether the rats will become a bit more difficult to handle as they dive
through the enrichment to get away! Perhaps not a problem from the rats
perspective but something to bear in mind for the owner.
Regarding the problems with hay and skin irritations - from my
experience with my own pet rats, which in the past I have kept on
shavings, I have found that as they get older they
do seem to lose hair and get gradually more scabby. The rats have had various
potions and injections from the vets but nothing really solved the
problem. I have a little hunch regarding this with some evidence, maybe
a vet on the list can suggest whether there is any merit in it. I've observed
that rats, housed on shavings, that I've found cold a few hours after
passing away, seem to have some sort of mites crawling off them. These
were NOT visible to the eye when the animals were alive. My theory is
that these are picked up from shavings, and probably hay, and the
animals are able to deal with them until they start getting old and then
presumably find it harder to tolerate them and you start seeing the
hair loss / scabs. I back this theory up with my observations that lab
rats I've worked with on long term studies housed on grids or lab
quality shavings have shown no signs of this. In addition to this my
current pet rats, in light of this hunch, have been kept on the shredded
J-cloth type of bedding all their life and now at age 2.5 years (getting
on a bit) show no signs of hair loss / irritations.
With regards enrichment, rats do interact with all the items suggested
and, with my non-scientist head on I'd agree that they seem to enjoy
them. However, I'd caution that by saying that what constitutes
appropriate enrichment will vary according to circumstance e.g. what it
is used for (e.g. pet, lab(if so, what type of study it is used for),
space (smallish cage to the enclosure type described by Catriona), its
social grouping (grouped, single sex / mixed sex), behavioural
characteristics of the individuals / strains concerned and
the degree of human / animal interaction required. For instance, work
I've done (and others have found this too) with male mice in lab type
cages has found that aggression is increased in enriched environments,
probably due to the addition of coveted resources in a barren
environment.
Which is fine if you are prepared to accept that this is a part of the
natural social repertoire and hair loss and perhaps bite wounds if more
intense, but probably not if you are the subordinate
individual who cannot satisfactorily evade aggressors in the limited
space provided by this type of environment.
Food for thought.
Charlotte.
From: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison" 14-OCT-1999 06:32:03.16
To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan"
Subj: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate?
Hi again,
Chris has provoked me into replying to his running wheel
suggestion.
The advocation of running wheels as enrichment is something
I'm still uneasy with, and I'm interested in other peoples
informed opinions (hope people don't think I'm revisiting
a tired old debate).
Why?
1. Wheel running - self motivated - repetitive, invariant,
function a matter of debate - not known to be used in
natural environments (ref. to the contrary Chris?)
therefore 'abnormal'? - tendency to be advocated to improve
welfare.
2. 'Stereotypy' (particularly thinking of bar-related
behaviour in mice as a comparison) - self-motivated -
repetitive, invariant, presumed non-functional (though I
contest this) - not known in nature (no bars!), but
climbing / chewing a large component of wild rodent
behaviour - usually considered to indicate poor welfare
(though some psychologists I've talked to disagree!).
So, in the light of these points, do you think we should
advocate running wheels as enrichment?
Or are they used as behavioural substitution for
stereotypy? (Interestingly bar-related stereotypy is
reported to decline when they are placed in cages).
Is their use just covering underlying deficits in the cage
environment? If so, aren't we kidding ourselves by
advocating the use of running wheels?
This is a topic I believe we should consider carefully, as
technicians are very keen to see the introduction of wheels
as enrichment for millions of rodents in labs.
Incidentally, my own indecision is partly fuelled by my own
addiction to treadmills in the gym. But there again, I can
get off and walk out of the gym.
Regards,
Charlotte.
----------------------
C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk
Animal Behaviour Research Group
Division of Animal Husbandry
Leahurst Veterinary Teaching Hospital,
University of Liverpool,
Chester High Road, Neston,
South Wirral L64 7TE
UK
Tel: 0151 794 6101
Fax: 0151 794 6107
From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 14-OCT-1999 07:17:35.02
To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk"
CC: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate?
>>> Charlotte Nevison 10/14 8:31 am >>>
The advocation of running wheels as enrichment is something=20
I'm still uneasy with, ....(snip).... 2. 'Stereotypy' (particularly =
thinking of bar-related behaviour in mice as a comparison) - (snip) =
usually considered to indicate poor welfare (though some psychologists =
I've talked to disagree!).
So, in the light of these points, do you think we should=20
advocate running wheels as enrichment?>>>
The problem with stereotypies is not the performance of the
behaviour itself but the underlying conditions that lead animals
to perform stereotypies. Preventing animals from performing
stereotypies but leaving them with the underlying problem
will not solve anything. Likewise, allowing animals to
perform the stereotypies doesn't solve the problem either.
Similarly for mice, the question as to whether or
not mice should be encouraged to wheel run depends on
why they want to wheel run.
Jeff Rushen
**************************************************
Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D.
Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre,
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada,
PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East,
Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3
Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206
Fax. 1-819-5645507
Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca
**************************************************
From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@UManitoba.CA" "Nora Lewis" 14-OCT-1999 08:01:15.46
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Anim. Behav. Sci."
CC:
Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven
> Hi all,
I would suggest putting a fixed box with an open entrance which can be closed off
into the design. Repeatedly feeding special treats in this box will bring the
rats into it. A discriminative cue would be good for indicating when treats would
be available. This gives the owners a chance to pick up and examine the rats at
their convenience and to treat them if necessary.
Nora
--
Nora Lewis, Ph.D., DVM
Department of Animal Science,
University of Manitoba,
12 Dafoe Rd.,
Winnipeg, Manitoba,
Canada. R3T 2N2
phone: 204 474-9443
fax: 204 474-7628
From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 14-OCT-1999 08:22:25.16
To: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan", IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Miss C.M. Nevison"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven
Great tips on rat environments!
I would just like to add:
1. Using hay, dirt, sand, etc. is risky because these products
usually are exposed to wild animal feces, bacteria, etc that you
import into your rats' environment if you use them.
2. A wheel provided for rats must be enclosed or they will catch
their tail in the spokes.
3. Re: capture of rats (or any animal) in a large environment (e.g.,
where they have freedom of choice). An animal who associates you
with food, pets, etc. will approach you. Approach behaviours can
gradually be shaped to allow touching and other contact. My rats,
who all have choices for their location and/or proximity to me,
quickly come when called (although they usually "pop up or out" when
I enter the room or call them).
Deb
dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca
Deborah A. McWilliams
B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc
Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph
Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7
From: IN%"emilypk@bumail.bradley.edu" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 14-OCT-1999 08:32:05.11
To:
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven
> When designing rodent housing, you might like to look at 'Refining
> Rodent Husbandry: The Mouse' Lab. Anim. 32, 233-259 (1998) Jennings et
> al. Although this was written specifically for the mouse, many of the
> ideas are applicable to rats.
Rat refs are not as well developed but there is Anzaldo et al (1994) AWIC
Newsletter, Bradshaw & Poling (1991) JEAB and Batchelor (1993) Animal
Technology
> My own suggestion is that you consider giving the rats running wheels.
> Also, tying in with Joe's idea, try giving them operant control of
> running wheels - there's some really neat references to rodents
> insisting on controlling running wheels, i.e turning them off when
> experimenters turn them on, and turning them on when experimenters turn
> them off!
For more on that try Darrel Smith at Victoria University, I can pass on the
email.
> My main interest for a number of years has been
> > cognitive processing in birds (specifically pigeons and
> > domestic chickens).
> > I am currently engaged in designing the perfect enclosure
> > for a pair of pet rats which ahve hitherto been kept in a
> > somewhat stressful environment.
SNAP, I started with hen perception and then went to rat enrichment
> > add hay to this mix, but when I have used it in the past
> > with mice they have developed skin irritations which often
> > caused them to scratch themselves raw.
No probs with good hay, but nix the newspaper for ink toxicity
> >
> > We would also like to provide the rats with some
> > environment enrichment. Again, we have some basic ideas
> > about this, but if anyone's rat out there has a particular
> > favourite 'toy' or similar, we'd like to hear about it!
>
The love shredded document paper, well designed nest boxes and some interest
in raised platform (and I have the data to prove it). They were indifferent
to most other things. I didn't test the wheel...
Emily
From: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison" 14-OCT-1999 08:41:00.91
To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk"
Subj: RE: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate?
Hi Jeff, and fellow list members,
> The problem with stereotypies is not the performance of the
> behaviour itself but the underlying conditions that lead animals
> to perform stereotypies.
Agreed.
> Preventing animals from performing
> stereotypies but leaving them with the underlying problem
> will not solve anything. Likewise, allowing animals to
> perform the stereotypies doesn't solve the problem either.
Again agreed.
> Similarly for mice, the question as to whether or
> not mice should be encouraged to wheel run depends on
> why they want to wheel run.
Perhaps rehashing my last mail here, but imagine the
scenario - you put a wheel in the cage of a mouse - it runs
on it. Similarly, put bars on the top of the cage - it
climbs on them. Both behaviours usually performed at high
frequency. Are both fulfilling the 'want' for activity? If
so, why is one outlet (ie. provision of a wheel) more
acceptable to us than the other? Why bother providing
running wheels in addition to the bars that are already
features of most rodent cages?
These are the sort
of arguments that we have to counter, and our
arguments have to be convincing as there are many people
using lab animals that fight against enrichment for many
reasons (eg. costs and the increase in variability).
Alternatively, is the motivation behind these activities
more 'sinister'? Evidence I gathered supports earlier
suggestions that bar-related stereotypy in mice is
motivated by a desire to leave the cage (escape?). So wheel
running is not an obvious means of leaving the cage, but as
bar-related behaviour can be substituted by
wheel running, is this performed when repetitive behaviour
is ingrained and functional motivation is lost, and hence
fulfills the criteria for a stereotypy? (NB. not sure about
the importance of the switch here).
Say wheel running and / or bar behaviour is found to be
something that an animal 'wants', eg. through tests where
they have to work to gain access to these resources. Does
this mean that they are acceptable to the animal, or just
the best choice in a world of poor choices?
I'm being deliberately provocative here. We need a
sound basis for advocating certain types of enrichment. I'm
not yet convinced about the evidence for running wheels,
and I don't like being so negative towards people who are
desperately keen to improve the environments of their
animals.
Regards,
Charlotte.
----------------------
C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk
Animal Behaviour Research Group
Division of Animal Husbandry
Leahurst Veterinary Teaching Hospital,
University of Liverpool,
Chester High Road, Neston,
South Wirral L64 7TE
UK
Tel: 0151 794 6101
Fax: 0151 794 6107
From: IN%"emilypk@bumail.bradley.edu" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 14-OCT-1999 08:41:11.15
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Anim. Behav. Sci."
CC:
Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven
> I would suggest putting a fixed box with an open entrance which can be
> closed off
> into the design. Repeatedly feeding special treats in this box will bring
> the
> rats into it. A discriminative cue would be good for indicating when
> treats would
> be available. This gives the owners a chance to pick up and examine the
> rats at
> their convenience and to treat them if necessary.
>
> Nora
I found that when there was a good nest box in the cage the rats were rarely
out of it, and without reversed day/night lighting this should be even more
true...
Emily
From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 15-OCT-1999 03:14:01.40
To: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk"
Subj: RE: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate?
Dear Charlotte and Others,
My reasons for advocating a running wheel come from research for a
review article I published last year (please forgive the blatant
self-promotion - someone has to do it!...Sherwin, C.M. Voluntary wheel
running: a review and novel interpretation. Animal Behaviour,
56:11-27).
Do running wheels improve welfare?
Considering physiology only, providing a running wheel leads to
decreased fat deposits, more efficient oxygen consumption and greater
longevity...I think most people would consider these to indicate
improved physiological well-being.
If given a choice between artificial tunnels/digging substrate and a
running wheel, rodents will spend more time in the running wheel, and
work harder (pressing operant switches) to gain access to the running
wheel. This is true even when the animal can gain access to 230m of
tunnel system! So, for those people advocating giving rodents tunnels
(e.g. Habitrail) there is good evidence the animals would prefer
(benefit more from?) a running wheel instead...I suggest we should
provide both to be on the safe side.
Is wheel running a stereotypy?
Wheel running occurs within a few minutes of a running wheel becoming
available - this is not usually the case with stereotypies.
Wheel running occurs in diverse environments, e.g. in preference to
the 230m of tunnels mentioned above, large semi-natural pens the size
of laboratories, (I also have a vague recollection of an anecdote
describing a released hedgehog returning to its pen to use a
running wheel).
Use of a wheel is less invariant than we might think. Animals often
jump in and out of a wheel, cling to the bars and allow theselves to be
carried around the wheel, will stop and start motorised wheels, will
swap to use irregular shaped wheels (they prefer 'square' wheels, or
wheels with hurdles in) and perform activities in the wheel, e.g.
jumping over the axle, 'transporting' young'.
There is also evidence that providing running wheel STOPS somersaulting
stereotypies in canyon mice.
Having said this, I take Charlotte's point of view that we should not
simply provide a running wheel and then believe that everything is OK.
Wheel running may be a re-directed, abnormal behaviour (whether
stereotypical or not) in which case we need to determine the underlying
motivation and the implications for welfare of the animals. I also
agree with Charlottes's suggestion that it would be a really neat
experiment to compare the strength of motivation for a running wheel
and to gain access to bars for the performance of escape behaviour.
Regards,
Chris
----------------------
Chris Sherwin Ph.D.
Division of Animal Health and Husbandry
University of Bristol
Langford House
Langford
Bristol
BS40 5DU
Phone: (0117) 928 9486
Fax: (0117) 928 9582
E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk
From: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Miss C.M. Nevison" 15-OCT-1999 04:30:43.61
To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin"
CC: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan"
Subj: RE: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate?
Dear all,
Sorry, I should have mentioned Chris' impressive review paper on wheel
running. A staggering 191 references (count 'em!). Worth a read, though
I have to say this paper played a large part in generating my concern
over the provision of running wheels (some of the facts it lists are
stunning - in 24hrs rats ran 43km in a wheel! - I'm sure wild rats
don't run this far in this period!).
However, in writing the review Chris seems to have become largely in
favour of advocating wheels - with some reservations. Hope you can all
make up your own minds and be happy with your decisions.
Regards,
Charlotte.
From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 15-OCT-1999 05:02:44.53
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)"
CC:
Subj: Addictive Running?
Of course whatever is good for you is bad for you!
How about "scuttling" in a wheel for the hell of it and
all those lovely endorphins!
Some might get the endogenous addiction that is described
for joggers and jitterbuggers of various species. Others no
doubt are satiated or fatigued and achieve homeostasis
within something that could be described as a normal range.
I would guess haloperidol and naloxone would wipe out the
reward and the motivation.
My advice to the rat is "go roadie rat go!"
Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S.
The Veterinary Clinic
78 Bromyard Road
Worcester
WR2 5DA
Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296
Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287
Centre of Applied Pet Ethology
Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 15-OCT-1999 05:03:55.00
To: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Miss C.M. Nevison"
CC: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin"
Subj: RE: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate?
Dear All,
Thanks Charlotte for the comments on the review.
The 'distances' run in running wheels are quite staggering. However, I
must admit that since publication of the review in which I accurately
quoted data presented in papers, it has been pointed out to me that at
the normal running speed of some of these animals, they would have to
run continually for 23.5 hrs to achieve these distances...! It appears
there may have been some inaccurate calculations/data collecting
somewhere.
On Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:30:24 +0100 (BST) "Miss C.M. Nevison"
wrote:
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> Sorry, I should have mentioned Chris' impressive review paper on wheel
> running. A staggering 191 references (count 'em!). Worth a read, though
> I have to say this paper played a large part in generating my concern
> over the provision of running wheels (some of the facts it lists are
> stunning - in 24hrs rats ran 43km in a wheel! - I'm sure wild rats
> don't run this far in this period!).
> However, in writing the review Chris seems to have become largely in
> favour of advocating wheels - with some reservations. Hope you can all
> make up your own minds and be happy with your decisions.
>
> Regards,
> Charlotte.
>
>
----------------------
Dr Chris Sherwin Ph.D.
Division of Animal Health and Husbandry
University of Bristol
Langford House
Langford
Bristol
BS40 5DU
Phone: (0117) 928 9486
Fax: (0117) 928 9582
E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk
From: IN%"bjorn.forkman@zoologi.su.se" "Bjorn Forkman" 15-OCT-1999 06:26:01.47
To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Miss C.M. Nevison"
CC: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin"
Subj: RE: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate?
Dear All,
this reminds me of an anecdote from the lab of Prof Bengt Meyersson. He led
a department that was involved in looking at the effects of different
pharmacological substances on behaviour.
One of the things they were interested in were the general activity of
the animals (in this case gerbils), and they used running wheels to measure
that. However, the measures they got were way to high, extremely high, so
they decided to do what a good ethologist does - look at the animal instead
of relying on automatic measurements. What they saw was that the gerbils
tended to jump into the wheel, run very fast, and then jump out of it and
sit watching the wheel spinning until the wheel stopped, at which point the
gerbil would jump in again and start all over - how's that for enrichment
???
all the best,
Björn Forkman
From: IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" 15-OCT-1999 09:08:19.14
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: rat housing
In these four papers we looked at strengths of rat preferences for
flooring, nestboxes of various kinds and bedding. Other people's work is
discussed.
Manser, C.E., Morris, T.H. and Broom, D.M. 1995. An investigation into the
effects of solid or grid cage flooring on the welfare of laboratory rats.
Lab. Animals, 29, 353-363.
Manser, C.E., Elliott, H., Morris, T.H. and Broom, D.M. 1996. The use of a
novel operant test to determine the strength of preference for flooring in
laboratory rats. Lab. Anim., 30, 1-6.
Manser, C.E., Broom, D.M., Overend, R. and Morris, T.H. 1998. Investigation
into the preference of laboratory rats for nest-boxes and nesting
materials. Lab. Animals, 32, 23-35.
Manser, C.E., Broom, D.M., Overend, R., and Morris, T.H. 1998. Operant
studies to determine the strength of preference in laboratory rats for
nest-boxes and nesting material. Lab. Animals, 32, 36-41.
Don Broom
Professor D.M.Broom, Animal Welfare and Human-Animal Interactions Group,
Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge,
Cambridge CB3 0ES, U.K. Telephone:44 (0)1223 337697.Fax:44 (0)1223 337610.