No, we dont worship Joseph Smith, I explained to the investigator. We respect him as a prophet.

You mean, like Mohamed? he asked.

No, more like Moses, or John the Baptist.

It was a standard comparison that I had used repeatedly on my mission. Joseph Smith is just a prophet. Hes just like John the Baptist, or Moses, or Peter, James, and John.

Of course, there are a few problems with that characterization, arent there?

Chief among them  if Joseph Smith is really just like John the Baptist, then why dont we treat the two similarly? And despite doctrinal protests, we really dont.

In the current hymnal, there are no hymns about Moses. None about John the Baptist (though Jesuss baptism is referenced a few times). A few cursory mentions of Peter, in places like What Was Witnessed (#11), and implied mention in #105, Master the Tempest is Raging. There are some mentions of Adam  more than any other Biblical prophet, probably  as well as Enoch.

In contrast, we get two very well-known, oft-sung hymns focusing directly on Joseph Smith: Praise to the Man, and Oh How Lovely was the Morning. Prior hymnals contained many more: The Seer; Blest was the Day when the Prophet and Seer; O Give me Back my Prophet; and so on.

The same goes for church art. The average church building might have pictures of Joseph Smith alone; of the First Vision; of the priesthood restoration; of translation. The Gospel Art kit reflects this. It contains ten pictures of Joseph Smith. There are six pictures of Jesus apostles, four pictures of Moses, Lehi, and Nephi, and three each of Adam and Daniel...

...the personal nature of much...music and art  Praise to the Man  cuts in the other direction...

From the article: Of course, there are a few problems with that characterization, arent there? Chief among them  if Joseph Smith is really just like John the Baptist, then why dont we treat the two similarly? And despite doctrinal protests, we really dont. In the current hymnal, there are no hymns about Moses. None about John the Baptist (though Jesuss baptism is referenced a few times). A few cursory mentions of Peter, in places like What Was Witnessed (#11), and implied mention in #105, Master the Tempest is Raging. There are some mentions of Adam  more than any other Biblical prophet, probably  as well as Enoch. In contrast, we get two very well-known, oft-sung hymns focusing directly on Joseph Smith: Praise to the Man, and Oh How Lovely was the Morning. Prior hymnals contained many more: The Seer; Blest was the Day when the Prophet and Seer; O Give me Back my Prophet; and so on.

IOW, if the current Mormon hymnal is bad enough in directing direct worship to Joseph Smith, who Mormons believe can become a god (perhaps he has already???), the previous Mormon hymnals had many more!

From the article: The same goes for church art. The average church building might have pictures of Joseph Smith alone; of the First Vision; of the priesthood restoration; of translation. The Gospel Art kit reflects this. It contains ten pictures of Joseph Smith. There are six pictures of Jesus apostles, four pictures of Moses, Lehi, and Nephi, and three each of Adam and Daniel...

Mormon church art trots out this same iconic adoration of Joseph Smith.

Merry Smithmas!

2
posted on 12/12/2011 7:15:21 AM PST
by Colofornian
(JoePologists: Those who defend the personality cults of Joe Smith and Joe Paterno)

The last real prophet died around 2600 years ago i.e around the time of Zechariah or just before that. A monument to him would be like the tomb of the unknowns, since nobody could know his name for certain.

Ancient religious practices were meant to communicate with the spirit realm directoy; those included oracles, prophets, "familiar spirits" as with the case of the "Witch of Endor", and pure electrostatic devices like the ark of the covenant. All of those things involved trance states, all involved static electricity, and they all stopped working around the time of Zechariah.

The first paragraph of the book of Hebrews mentions prophets as a thing of the distant past on the day Jesus was born. Anybody claiming to be a prophet since that time is basically a BS artist.

From the article: "Hymnody and art about Jesus are several orders of magnitude higher than any other figure, including Joseph Smith. We may have two hymns about Joseph Smith, but there are scores and scores that talk primarily about Jesus.

The author fails to note that the "scores and scores that talk primarily about Jesus" are hymns that mormons have "borrowed" from Christian hymnals...not hymns that have been composed by mormons. A salient point, IMO.

Funny. The bible doesn’t have anything in it saying that I need John the Baptist’s or Moses’s approval to get into heaven. It’s explicit that Christ is the way, the only way, the entirely sufficient way to salvation. Any additional requirements added onto that are heresy and blasphemy.

The bottom line is that the mormons fall prey to Satan’s deception of Eve in promising that a man can be a god. Any attempts to paint Joseph Smith’s role in the Mormon church as anything other than replacing Christ or standing co-equal with Christ are false and deceiving.

Actually “prophesy” is a gift from the Holy Spirit mentioned in the New Testament—a sign that the Kingdom of God has come (I Cor. 14; Act 2:17,18; 13:9; 19:6). St. Paul was warned by the prophet Agabus in Acts (11:28; 21:10). Was Apostle Paul mislead by a “B.S. artist?”

St. John wrote the book of Revelation...probably around AD 100...it is full of prophesies—in fact, it is THE most prophetic book in the Bible. Was John just a B.S. artist?

A prophet in the biblical sense is an extra-special man of God whom, you are correct, receives direct revelation from God. Often (but not always) those revelations were written down. All prophets were...of impeccable character.

There was a great famine of prophets and prophesy...a silence if you will, of around 400 years, from Zachariah to John the Baptist—who, most Bible scholars recognize was the last of the Old Testament style prophets—who communicated the revelation from God that His Kingdom was near—and—John testified as to the Kingship of Jesus Christ.

All of the Apostles, in that sense, were prophets—as they received the ULTIMATE revelation from God—Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ. Of course they wrote down their Holy Spirit inspired writings—in what we now know as the New Testament.

That canon is closed however...and no orthodox Christian has maintained anyone, anywhere at any time has the authority to add to the Bible—the prophetic testimony of the eyewitnesses of the resurrection.

A part of the Jewish bible was called “The Prophets” and, the traditionally recognized prophets were, in New Testament times...from the distant past—as the book of Hebrews shows. However, Jesus Himself, in His role as PROPHET, Priest and King, was indeed, the ultimate Prophet...

Jesus’ designated spokesmen—and eyewitnesses to His resurrection—were the Apostles—and, as mentioned above, they too, were “prophets” as receivers and communicators of direct revelation from God. Their testimony IS the New Testament.

Was Joseph Smith a prophet-from-God? Absolutely not. Many proofs are available of that...but, the easiest is to show that St. Paul made an absolute requirement that ALL Church leaders be the “husband of one wife.” (I Tim 3, Titus 1)

The fact alone that Joseph Smith flagrantly violated St. Paul’s command for monogamy...and taught others to do likewise, proves, very simply, he was a false prophet, a man of terrible character—NOT from God.

Actually, John the Baptist, whom we Orthodox title “the Holy Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist John” was most assuredly a prophet according to any honest definition. I realize there is some bizarre definition used by dispensationalists who want to herd the gifts of the Spirit into various historical eras, but the key qualities — foretelling the future and calling to repentance, of which the latter is more important, though we don’t use the title prophet without the first — were both there in St. John.

And, there have been plenty of examples of prophets fitting both characteristics among Orthodox monastic elders since, or even among the married clergy (St. John of Kronstadt, being the key example of the latter that comes to mind). For instance both the fall of Russia under atheist domination and its restoration were foretold decades in advance by monastic elders both Russian and Greek, often in terms calling on Russians to repent — St. Seraphim of Sarov and The Elder Heliodorus of Glinsk Hermitage both foresaw the horrors which would come on Russia from a distance of a century, or almost so, the Elder Porphyry also of Glinsk foretold both the fall and restoration in 1868. Even when the prophecy itself lacked the call to repentance as an integral part, the one foretelling was engaged in calling those around him to repentance, that being the chief office of a monastic elder, or in the case of St. John of Kronstadt a major part the ministry of a priest serving in a rough navy town.

8
posted on 12/12/2011 8:03:39 AM PST
by The_Reader_David
(And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)

A prophet is just that . . . a prophet! This Smith guy, if he were even for a moment talking to God about future events, would NEVER be wrong.

But this conman, stone reader, embezzler, child predator, adulterer, and polygamist was so horribly wrong on just about every prophecy. How anyone with any common sense could still adhere to his babbling is beyond me.

Admit you were conned, and return to the real ONE GOD, Jesus before you have a date in Hell.

I totally agree with Marcus. I find the singing of the song Praise to the Man to be vaguely idolatrous as well, and I refrain from singing it. I dont go out and campaign against it or anything, but if someone asks me why I dont sing it, Ill tell them that Im not comfortable singing praises to anyone except a member of the Godhead.

Its nice to see some real responses instead of the same generic/no meaning responses by some mormons here.

The author fails to note that the "scores and scores that talk primarily about Jesus" are hymns that mormons have "borrowed" from Christian hymnals...not hymns that have been composed by mormons. A salient point, IMO.

A salient point, but an incorrect one. What is the number you guys quote? About half the hymns in a Mormon hymnal are "borrowed." And there are two mentioned above that talk about Joseph Smith. I am pretty sure the hymnal is longer than 4 songs.

For the record - there are "scores and scores that talk primarily about Jesus" that have Mormon authors.

No, we dont worship Joseph Smith, I explained to the investigator. We respect him as a prophet.

Looks like things have CHANGED; down Zion way...

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."

- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321

"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."

- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"

- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgressionif you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."

- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155

"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"

- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670

They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.

He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.

He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.

As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.

Who has made this so?

Have I?

Have this people?

Have the world?

No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.

If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.

If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.

Can you pass without his inspection?

No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.

In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.

They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?

They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?

Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224

16
posted on 12/12/2011 9:22:53 AM PST
by Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)

The fact alone that Joseph Smith flagrantly violated St. Pauls command for monogamy...and taught others to do likewise, proves, very simply, he was a false prophet, a man of terrible characterNOT from God.

Polygamy: How it all got Started

Joe: Hey Emma!Guess what!?

Emma: You KNOW I hate these guessing games! What is it, Dear?

Joe: I heard a voice, probably the Lord, tell me I must take other wives.

Emma: WHAT!? You ding bat! Don't you KNOW what our precious BOOK says? After all; YOU are the one that translated it!

Joe: Books; schmooks. All I know is I've been COMMANDED to take other wives and you are to OBEY ME!!!

Emma: "Though shalt NOT commit ADULTERY!!!"

Joe: Silly Woman! You KNOW better than to take things out of CONTEXT!!!

...and the rest is HISTORY...

THE BOOK OF JACOBTHE BROTHER OF NEPHI

CHAPTER 2

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. 25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. 26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old. 27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; 28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. 29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things. 31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. 32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

Or even HERE:

1 Timothy 3:2-3 2. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3. not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

1 Timothy 3:12 A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.

Titus 1:6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.

Emma: That's IT! I'm LEAVING your sorry *!!!

Joe: DARN you Emma; you were TOLD to accept this!! Wait!!! I hear a voice again!!!

THEDOCTRINE AND COVENANTSOF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 132

5157, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 5866, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandmentshe shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.

56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to brejoice.

17
posted on 12/12/2011 9:24:34 AM PST
by Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)

1. If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and 2. And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3. Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4. Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

And, if ALL prophecies have NOT come to pass..................

KJV Deuteronomy 18:17-22 17. And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20. But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? 22. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

18
posted on 12/12/2011 9:26:22 AM PST
by Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)

This Smith guy, if he were even for a moment talking to God about future events, would NEVER be wrong.

On most matters I can only make educated guesses at best, uneducated guesses at worst.

No need to guess, when the evidence is presented:

In 1976, the 137th section of Doctrine & Covenants (D&C) was submitted to the general conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for a vote to be "sustained" as scripture. It is a narrative of a vision supposedly seen by Joseph Smith in Kirtland, OH in 1836.

What the members who voted on this new addition to scripture were not told by "the Brethren," is that whole paragraphs (216 words) of the actual revelation as recorded in The History of the Church had been conveniently left out of the version to be included in the D&C. The reason for these omissions was that four obviously false prophecies were contained in the part of the revelation that was censored out. These were prophecies so obviously false that even the average LDS reader would pick them up. Therefore, they went down the "black hole" of Mormon history.

What exactly were in these missing parts? Well, if you go to the official history of the LDS church published by the church's own publishing company, you will be easily able to find the missing prophecies. Here is what is not in the new D&C 137:

[Joseph Smith:] "....I saw the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, who are now upon the earth, who hold the keys of this last ministry, in foreign lands, standing together in a circle, much fatigued, with their clothes tattered and their feet swollen, with their eyes cast downward, and Jesus standing in their midst, and they did not behold him. The Saviour looked upon them and wept.

I also beheld Elder M'Lellinin the south, standing upon a hill, surrounded by a vast multitude, preaching to them, and a lame man standing before him supported by his crutches; he threw them down at his word and leaped as a hart, by the mighty power of God.

Also, I saw Elder Brigham Young standing in a strange land, in the far south and west, in a desert place, upon a rock in the midst of a bout a dozen men of color, who appeared hostile. He was preaching to them in their own tongue, and the angel of God standing above his head with a drawn sword in his hand, protecting him, but he did not see it.

And I finally saw the Twelve in the celestial kingdom of God. I also beheld the redemption of Zion and many things which the tongue of man cannot describe in full"

Now, if this were true, it was a truly inspiring and wonderful declaration! Unfortunately, for the LDS faithful, a short look at the official history of the church reveals the false prophecies contained therein.

First of all, Smith claimed to see his (original LDS) Twelve apostles all in the celestial kingdom. This is difficult to imagine, since there was already division between Smith and the majority of the Apostles, beginning with discord in Kirtland, Ohio. The first portion of the "missing words" shows his less than subtle rebuke of their resistance to his will. "...fatigued....tattered...eyes cast downward....The Saviour looked upon them and wept." Smith was calling them to get into line and submit themselves to his full authority. That's the carrot offered in the last portion, "I finally saw the Twelve in the Celestial Kingdom of God."

However, his "thus saith the Lord" must have had little effect on them, since at least seven of the twelve under discussion were soon excommunicated or apostatized from the church: John F. Boynton & Luke S. Johnson (1837), Lyman Johnson (1838), William E. M'Lellin (c.1838), Thomas B. Marsh & Orson Hyde (1838), and William Smith (1845)

How could they have ever attained the celestial kingdom under those conditions? They couldn't! They were not only accursed by their very acts of apostasy or excommunication, but fell victim to the LDS Church's own scriptural denunciation. D&C 84.40-41 clearly states:

"Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved. But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth there-from, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come."

Although a few of these men later returned to the church, none of them were even close to the standards necessary for attainment of that highest degree of glory. The majority remained apart for life. Therefore, the prophetic utterance, "I finally saw the Twelve in the Celestial Kingdom of God." was obviously false. It would have been false even if only one Apostle remained outside the fold.

Second, the vision of M'Lellin preaching and working miracles in the south never came true because he apostatized from the church without ever doing it! (See above).

Third, Although Brigham Young did bring the Mormons west and was a great colonizer and orator, the vision of Brigham Young preaching to "men of color" in their own language, in some strange and faraway place in the southwest never took place either, or at least there is no trace of it in the very detailed records and diaries concerning his reign as prophet.

Finally, "Zion" (Independence, MO.) was never redeemed, has never been redeemed in the 150+ years since the prophecy was made. (See below, for more on Zion). Is it any wonder that the Brethren chose to remove whole chunks of this "inspired" revelation?

You know, the difference between knowing about Jesus Christ and knowing Him is eternal life. "And this is eternal life. That you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent." (Jesus, John 17:3)

Sorry, but the Mormon author of this article doesn't play word games like you do and reduce those hymns to "talking about Joseph Smith."

The author is forthright in saying "we get two very well-known, oft-sung hymns FOCUSING DIRECTLY on Joseph Smith: Praise to the Man, and Oh How Lovely was the Morning.

Also, Mormons from years past worshiped Smith more often: Prior hymnals contained many more: The Seer; Blest was the Day when the Prophet and Seer; O Give me Back my Prophet; and so on.

So that's the Mormon legacy left from earlier generations: The direct worship of Joseph Smith. Somebody made a decision to pare it back a bit. But the heritage and legacy is still there.

20
posted on 12/12/2011 9:52:32 AM PST
by Colofornian
(JoePologists: Those who defend the personality cults of Joe Smith and Joe Paterno)

The prophecies I point to were given by men who bid us follow the God we have known, the All-Holy Trinity, the Father who is without beginning, the Son, even Our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, who spake by the prophets, One God, not “other gods”, and they came to pass. So your point is?

I would also note that “if the thing follow not nor come to pass” must be tempered with the case of the Holy Prophet Jonah, who was so successful in the main point of prophecy — the call to repentance — that the Lord, seeing the repentance of the Ninevites, did not destroy Nineveh.

22
posted on 12/12/2011 10:32:11 AM PST
by The_Reader_David
(And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)

“Scores and scores” would imply at least 40. Here are 60+ (in case I messed up and included some from non-LDS sources). I didn’t go through the whole hymnal, as you can see, but quit in the 220s. There are 341 hymns total in the English version.

There are gaps for various reasons. The first 50 or so hymns are “restoration” hymns and include the “Joseph Smith” ones, as well as uniquely Momon hymns like “Come, Come Ye Saints” or “The Spirit of God.” The gap in the early 200s are the Christmas hymns (yes, we stole all those).

On some the title does not disclose well the topic. For example, here is the first verse of #186 - Again We Meet around the Board - “Again we meet around the board of Jesus, our redeeming Lord, with faith in his atoning blood, our only access unto God.”

T. P. has listed a whole bunch of "Jesus" related mormon hymns. How many of them have you actually heard or sung in a mormon service? I see several with similar names to Christian hymns but most of these were not in use when I was mormon.

I only find “O Give Me Back my Prophet Dear” and “The Seer, Joseph, The Seer” in the old 1948 hymnal (the brown one). I don't have any earlier ones around - sorry.

“Oh! Blest was the Day when the Prophet and Seer” appears to be in the 1927 hymnal, as well as various supplemental publications. It is not a “Praise Joseph” one, but rather a commemoration of the creation of the Relief Society organization. Interestingly, it is sung to “The Star Spangled Banner.”

#137 - O Give Me Back my Prophet Dear (LDS Hymns 1948) [John Taylor]

O give me back my Prophet dear, And Patriarch, O give them back; The Saints of latter days to cheer, And lead them in the gospel track. But ah! they're gone from my embrace, From earthly scenes their spirits fled; Those two, the best of Adam's race, Now lie entombed among the dead.

Ye men of wisdom tell me why, When guilt nor crime in them were found, Why now their blood doth loudly cry, From prison walls, and Carthage ground Your tongues are mute, but pray attend, The secret I will now relate, Why those whom God to earth did lend, Have met the suffering martyr's fate.

It is because they strove to gain, Beyond the grave a heaven of bliss; Because they made the gospel plain, And led the Saints in righteousness. It is because God called them forth, And led them by his own right hand Christ's coming to proclaim on earth, And gather Israel to their land.

It is because the priests of Baal Were desperate their craft to save; And when they saw it doomed to fail, They sent the Prophets to the grave. Like scenes the ancient Prophets saw, Like these, the ancient Prophets fell; And till the resurrection dawn, Prophet and Patriarch-Fare thee well.

#296 - The Seer, Joseph, The Seer (LDS Hymns 1948) [John Taylor]

The Seer, Joseph, the Seer! I'll sing of the Prophet ever dear, The Prophet ever dear; His equal cannot be found By searching the wide world around. With Gods he soared in the realms of day, And men he taught the heavenly way, And men he taught the heavenly way. The earthly Seer! the heavenly Seer! I love to dwell on his memory dear; The chosen of God and the friend of man, He brought the priesthood back again; He gazed on the past and the future, too, And opened, and opened The heavenly world to view, And opened, and opened The heavenly world to view.

Of noble seed, of heavenly birth, He came to bless the sons of earth, To bless the sons of earth; With keys by the Almighty given, He opened the full rich stores of heaven; O'er the world that was wrapped in sable night, Like the sun he spread his golden light, Like the sun he spread his golden light. He strove, O how he strove to stay The stream of crime in its reckless way! With a mighty hand and a noble aim, He urged the wayward to reclaim: ‘Mid foaming billows of angry strife, He stood at, he stood at The helm of the ship of life, He stood at, he stood at The helm of the ship of life.

The Saints, the Saints, his only pride! For them he lived, for them he died; He lived, for them he died; Their joys were his, their sorrows too. He loved the Saints; he loved Nauvoo. Unchanged in death with a Savior's love, He pleads their cause in the courts above. He pleads their cause in the courts above. The Seer, the Seer! Joseph, the Seer! O how I love his memory dear! The just and wise, the pure and free, A father he was and is to me. Let fiends now rage, in their dark hour— No matter, no matter, He is beyond their power, No matter, no matter, He is beyond their power.

He's free! He's free! The Prophet's free! He is where he will ever be, Where he will ever be, Beyond the reach of mobs and strife, He rests unharmed in endless life. His home's in the sky; he dwells with the Gods Far from the furious rage of mobs, Far from the furious rage of mobs. He died, he died for those he loved. He reigns; he reigns in the realms above. He waits with the just who have gone before To welcome the Saints to Zion's shore. Shout, shout, ye Saints! This boon is given; We'll meet him, we'll meet him Our martyred Seer, in heaven. We'll meet him, we'll meet him Our martyred Seer, in heaven.

Oh! Blest was the Day when the Prophet and Seer [Emily Hill Woodmansee]

1 Oh! blest was the day when the Prophet and Seer, (Who stands at the head of this last dispensation,) Inspir’d from above by “The Father” of Love Form’d the Daughters of Zion's great organization. Its purpose, indeed, is to comfort and feed The honest and poor in distress and in need. Oh! the Daughters of Zion, the friends of the poor, Are exemplars of faith, hope and charity,

2 Oh! Daughters of Truth, ye have cause to rejoice, Lo! the key of advancement is placed in your keeping; To help with your might whatsoever is right, To gladden their hearts who are weary of weeping. By commandment divine, Zion's daughters must shine, And all of the sex, e'en as one, should combine; For a oneness of action success will In resisting the wrongs that ‘tis wrong to endure. Oh! the Daughters of Zion, the friends of the poor, Are exemplars of faith, hope and charity, pure.

3 Oh, woman! God gave thee the longing to bless, Thy touch like Compassion's, is warm and caressing; There is power in thy weakness to soften To brighten the gloom and the darkness depressing: And not in the rear, hence, need woman appear; Her star is ascending, her zenith is Like an angel of mercy, she'll stand in the van, The joy of the world, and the glory of man. Oh! the Daughters of Zion, the friends of the poor, Are exemplars of faith, hope and charity, pure.

4 Oh! be of good cheer, far-extending we see The rosy-hued dawn like a vision of beauty; Its glory and light can interpreted be: Go on, in the pathway of love and of duty! The brave earnest soul will arrive at its goal; True heroes are crowned as the ages There is blessing in blessing, admit it we must, And there's honor in helping a cause that is just. Oh! the Daughters of Zion, the friends of the poor, Are exemplars of faith, hope and charity, pure.

If it is the 1927 one, can you check on that "Oh! Blest was the Day when the Prophet and Seer" one? I see conflicting information on if it was in there or not. I also see it as hymn #337 or #377. Thanks.

Mormon song #186 Again we meet around the board of Jesus, our redeeming Lord, with faith in his atoning blood, our only access unto God.
_____________________________________

A couple of things right out of the gatge Tadpole...

1. That “atoning blood” of your mormon jesus is said by mormons to have been sweated in the Garden of Gethsemenee..

Thats not what happened to the real Jesus..

2. This Mormon doctrine contradicts the words “our only access unto God. in that song...

There is “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

and this one too...

“From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent”
(Brigham Young, October 9, 1859, Journal of Discourses 7:289).

"Try as the cult could to "cookie cutter" them all, they haven't been able."

Interesting. I'd say, based on the little experience I have with Mormons, that they do all manage to have a screw loose somewhere. One thing they get overly hung up on or hung up on not being hung up on. It's either that the complete isolation from non-Cult members groups like the Branch Davidians or Aum Shinrikyo rely on makes the process they use less reliable from their point of view, or that enough of them don't realize that they're supposed to be keeping one another in line the way some groups do.

Then again, I've seen Fundamentalist high schools where they tried to keep tabs on everyone all the time and it just served to make more of them rebellious. Do you have any idea what percentage of them are born into Mormonism as opposed to converting to Mormonism from something else or from no faith at all?

38
posted on 12/12/2011 12:13:15 PM PST
by Rashputin
(Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)

Mormons teach that we are judged according to the law that is in effect while we are on the earth. We teach that Joseph Smith participates in the judgment insofar as to testify as to what law applied to us. Just as those that lived in the time of Moses would see him there testifying what law applied to that time. We don't teach that he judges us. Only that he provides the measuring stick by which we are judged.

If I get time later (maybe not even today) I will try to explain this better.

The Seer, Joseph, the Seer!
I’ll sing of the Prophet ever dear,
The Prophet ever dear;
His equal cannot be found
By searching the wide world around.
With Gods he soared in the realms of day,
And men he taught the heavenly way,
__________________________________________

“His equal cannot be found
By searching the wide world around”

again blasphemy...

THe LORD Jesus Christ said all Christians are equal..

all of you are equal as brothers and sisters. Matthew 23:8

However as Joey Smith was never a Christian he would be less than the Christians...

Although we did sing “Come come ye saints”
“Israel, Isreal God is calling” (which I didn’t know was really “What a friend we have in Jesus” at the time),
Praise to the Man,
Spirit of God,
Oh how lovely was the Morning
#19 - We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet ,
#11 - What Was Witnessed in the Heavens? ;
#49 - Adam-ondi-Ahman ;
#252 - Put Your Shoulder to the Wheel
#292 - O My Father
and my all time favorite -
#284 - If You Could Hie to Kolob ; those kind of songs alot. And that was pretty much true in ALL my wards both in CA and UT. I still know most of those by heart.

I remember getting yelled at by my RS president for having an Amy Grant cassette in my car because it was ‘Christian rock’. oy vey.

42
posted on 12/12/2011 12:26:00 PM PST
by reaganaut
(Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see".)

Deconstructing Linus: Portrait of a True Believing Pumpkinist as a Young Man

What does the Great Pumpkin offer Linus? Why does Linus spend every Halloween in the pumpkin patch, waiting for the Great Pumpkin to appear? Is it about the toys?

"Each year on Halloween night, the Great Pumpkin rises out of the pumpkin patch that he thinks is the most sincere and flies through the air with his pack of toys for all the good little children in the world."

No. This is about sincerity, a subjective standard by any definition.

I wonder if Linus blames himself every year for not picking the most sincere pumpkin patch for his vigil?

I wonder if other Great Pumpkinists castigate Linus by asserting if he were more in tune with the Spirit of the Great Pumpkin, if he were more prayerful, if he read the Holy Writ of the Great Pumpkin with a greater sincerity, that he could indeed rise to the challenge and, via the Spirit, be lead to choose the most sincere pumpkin patch?

I wonder how many years Linus will feel guilty for this failure and blame himself for receiving no answer no matter how sincere he believes himself to be?

I wonder if Linus ever gets frustrated because there is no objective way to measure sincerity? And if he realizes there is no objective standard for such a thing, I wonder if it ever creeps into his mind that his annual mission is nothing more than mindless busywork?

I wonder, does Linus ever has doubts?

For the time being, however, Linus will put aside his doubts and, perhaps as a means of proving his sincerity, begins to proselyte among his friends for converts. Most shrug him off. But Sally, who has a crush on him, believes Linus and agrees to spend Halloween in Linus Pumpkin Patch.

Linus then explains that by using positive language and positive thinking, they may be able to attract the Great Pumpkin to their Patch. He also cautions Sally that negative language and negative thinking will cause the Great Pumpkin to pass them by.

There is no room for doubt when one is a Great Pumpkinist. One should never say if the Great Pumpkin comes but always when the Great Pumpkin comes. "One little slip like that, can cause the Great Pumpkin to pass you by!" Its hard to imagine a benevolent icon such as the Great Pumpkin punishing TBPs (True Believing Pumkinists) for such a minor infraction, but there you have it.

Sally: The Birth of an Ex-Pumpkinist

Because Sally loves her sweet baboo Linus, she sets aside her own Halloween plans of trick-or-treating and a Halloween party in order to spend the evening in the Pumpkin Patch. She converts to Great Pumpkinism because she loves Linus. She respects his opinion. And she wants to make him happy and be supportive. And besides, if its really true, WOW! Wouldnt that be fantastic?

But in the end, the only Being that shows up in the Pumpkin Patch is Snoopy. Linus, believing Snoopy to be the Great Pumpkin, swoons into an ecstatic faint, happy in the knowledge that he has finally deciphered the Great Pumpkins standard for sincerity. But, alas, it is a misplaced hope, and when Linus regains consciousness, there is not only no Great Pumpkin there to reward him, there is one upset little girl.

"I was robbed! I spent the whole night waiting for the Great Pumpkin when I could have been out for tricks or treats! Halloween is over and I missed it! You blockhead! You kept me up all night waiting for the Great Pumpkin and all that came was a beagle!"

"I didn't get a chance to go out for tricks or treats! And it was all your fault! I'll sue! What a fool I was. And I could have had candy apples and gum! And cookies and money and all sorts of things! But no, I had to listen to you! You blockhead. What a fool I was. Trick or treats come only once a year. And I missed it by sitting in a pumpkin patch with a blockhead. You owe me restitution!"

Luckily for Sally, she only missed one Halloween. And though she is demanding restitution, because her participation was voluntary, she will never receive said restitution. Shell simply have to accept the experience as one of lifes absurdities and move on.

However, one can hope that this experience has made Sally a more skeptical person, so that the next time she is presented with such fantastic claims, shell perhaps be inclined to do her research before committing any time, money or emotion.

After all, fantastic claims should be supported by fantastic evidence, right?

The question now becomes, has this experience made Linus a skeptic? After yet again not having his Pumpkin Patch recognized as sincere and after having endangered his friendship with Sally, will he continue to believe?

In spite of a complete and utter lack of evidence pointing to the existence of the Great Pumpkin, and a complete and utter lack of the Great Pumpkins Promise ever having been fulfilled, Linus is a True Believing Pumpkinist to the core. To even admit the possibility that he may be wrong would be to negate all those years of hard work and sincere belief. Linus simply cannot turn his back on his belief.

So if Linus doesn't become an ex-Pumpkinist, what is his strategy? Well, hes going to keep on trying, isn't he?

"What do you mean, 'stupid'? Just wait until next year. I'll find a pumpkin patch, and I'll sit in that pumpkin patch and it'll be a sincere pumpkin patch, and the Great Pumpkin will come! Just you wait and see! I'll sit in that pumpkin patch, and I'll see the Great Pumpkin. Just wait until next year!"

49
posted on 12/12/2011 12:43:42 PM PST
by Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)

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