We need help to fix domination in NA

Blackgate has been a very successful WvW server for a number of years now, and dominates NA T1. Unfortunately this domination is leading other servers to artificially adjust their play in order to drop out of T1 or to avoid going up into T1. Players are choosing to do this in order to have a better gaming experience – they are not happy with the current situation. This “race to the bottom” is not good for the game or the majority players, and it is time to do something about it.

Breaking the domination by a single, popular, well populated and coordinated server requires intervention by Anet, and will result in a big change for that server. However painful this may be, it needs to be done for the benefit of the majority of players on the other servers.

I can’t imagine that Blackgate players will be happy with this idea, and I completely understand any desire to see their successful server continue as it is. However all good things must come to an end, and there is precedent for Anet to intervene for the good of the game: linking was introduced to solve a WvW population problem, it was done for the benefit of the majority of players despite the protests of many people who were to be linked. When all the dust has settled, and despite the issues linking still has, the population spread is better than it was and WvW is better for it.

It’s time for Anet to step up to the plate again.

The one thing that is certain is that what is happening is not good for WvW and we can’t rely on players themselves to sort this out. We need Anet’s help; the question is what should they do?

Here’s a possible solution:

Announce that Blackgate will be closed in 2 months, and give players time to transfer to any open server of their own choice.

After the 2 months, close Blackgate. Promote the strongest linked server to host. Create a new linked server with a new name. Reduce the FULL status cap on all WvW servers to a fair level (perhaps 1/24th the total active WvW population) to stop any single server having dominant numbers.

Require any players who have not transferred from Blackgate to join an open server. The new link server will help with providing places.

This process would redistribute the Blackgate players across a number of other servers, and the lower full server population should ensure no single server achieves the same domination through numbers, because a host + link could have more players, and with Anet controlling the linking of servers any domination by a combination would only last until the next relink.

I’m sure Anet would be interested to read other constructive solutions too.

lets say for example that they delete Blackgate, then all citizens of Blackgate synchronized the bandwagon to Isle of Janthir on one night while all are still sleeping, then the Isle of Janthir becomes the New Undisputed Champion of the World vs World,
then delete the Isle of Janthir thread comes again to the same problem, until theres only 3 servers left, which is similar mode to EoTM

Norbe – you’ve not read the post through and have made a couple of mistakes in your response.

1. The suggestion I made does not reduce the total number of servers.
2. With a reduced max server population, how could the entire player base of Blackgate transfer to stack another server that already has players on? In fact they couldn’t even do this with the existing population limits either.

Target them because they have been successful by playing by the established rules.

Target them because winning actually matters?

Target them because of all the precursors they get because they are in first.

It’s interesting. Supposedly score doesn’t matter, but now Blackgate is horrible because they score more.

I’d say that any server that drops its participation while facing Blackgate, or tanks a match while in a tier below BG gets deleted. No warning. If you are throwing a match: boom. Done. Because match manipulation is against the TOS.

Norbe – you’ve not read the post through and have made a couple of mistakes in your response.

lemme rephrase my mistakes then:

that can’t be done…
lets say for example that they close Blackgate, then all citizens of Blackgate synchronized the bandwagon to Isle of Janthir on one night while all are still sleeping, then the Isle of Janthir becomes the New Undisputed Champion of the World vs World,
then close the Isle of Janthir thread comes again to the same problem, until theres only 3 servers left, which is similar mode to EoTM

2. With a reduced max server population, how could the entire player base of Blackgate transfer to stack another server that already has players on? In fact they couldn’t even do this with the existing population limits either.

Target them because they have been successful by playing by the established rules.

Target them because winning actually matters?

Target them because of all the precursors they get because they are in first.

It’s interesting. Supposedly score doesn’t matter, but now Blackgate is horrible because they score more.

I’d say that any server that drops its participation while facing Blackgate, or tanks a match while in a tier below BG gets deleted. No warning. If you are throwing a match: boom. Done. Because match manipulation is against the TOS.

Strider – if you think this is about “Blackgate is evil” then you’re very wrong! They’re good, and they’ve earned their success.
However, and just out of interest, which pair of NA servers would you say would enjoy facing Blackgate? If the other servers don’t want to play against Blackgate then this potentially affects the enjoyment of ALL the players in that tier (Blackgate included), and at least the tier below.

Norbe: I still don’t understand. All you’ve done is change a word and keep the same misunderstandings. The definition of Constructive is “having a beneficial or useful purpose”; how do your responses fit this concept?

Target them because they have been successful by playing by the established rules.

Target them because winning actually matters?

Target them because of all the precursors they get because they are in first.

It’s interesting. Supposedly score doesn’t matter, but now Blackgate is horrible because they score more.

I’d say that any server that drops its participation while facing Blackgate, or tanks a match while in a tier below BG gets deleted. No warning. If you are throwing a match: boom. Done. Because match manipulation is against the TOS.

Just stop.

Manipulation does not apply to WvW. Reread the ToS.

Agreed. Therefore there is nothing that BG has done wrong. Read the TOS.

Strider – if you think this is about “Blackgate is evil” then you’re very wrong! They’re good, and they’ve earned their success.
However, and just out of interest, which pair of NA servers would you say would enjoy facing Blackgate? If the other servers don’t want to play against Blackgate then this potentially affects the enjoyment of ALL the players in that tier (Blackgate included), and at least the tier below.

Norbe: I still don’t understand. All you’ve done is change a word and keep the same misunderstandings. The definition of Constructive is “having a beneficial or useful purpose”; how do your responses fit this concept?

Yet you are willing to punish ONE server to reach your ends. And it is punishing. The guilds there would stand a good chance of being split up, and the Non affiliated have coms they follow. It’s a punishment. You can call it what you will, but you are penalizing one server for being good.

One up one down was a smashing success wasn’t it? Well, if you are a server that doesn’t want to play in any particular tier, or doesn’t want to play against a particular server, then it’s great.

Look, it’s not about what two servers want to play against BG. My point in another thread was why don’t two servers work together?

The answer to that is; they can’t. They can’t stomach losing to the other.

I have advocated against allowing NG to open again. Have even advocated a way to prevent hibernation which is the primary tool of a full server to get new transfers. No one wants to do them.

The solution is always some form of BG is the ONLY problem with population so they need to go.

Strider: Yes, it would be difficult for Blackgate if their player base has to change to a different server. It would be as unsettling for them as being linked was for the population of twelve servers, but this was still done for the benefit of the majority of players. How is this different now?

I disagree with you – the problem definitely is about which two servers want to fight against Blackgate. The players on all sides want to have an enjoyable game. There is no fun for Blackgate players if they don’t face a decent opposition. There is no fun for the opposition if they can’t compete. In essence, Blackgate’s success is it’s problem.

As for why don’t two servers work together, they do – this is what linking is about. There are even three server links. Yet even the two and three server linkings that Anet have created have not shaken the domination in T1. This says something about the strength and organisation and numbers on Blackgate.

I don’t like the idea of disrupting a server and forcing the population to spread to other servers. I would prefer for the Blackgate players themselves to choose to spread their expertise among the other servers willingly, however we both know there has been plenty of opportunity to do this and it just hasn’t happened.

There are other possibilities. For example I’ve suggested an alternative in a previous post that would decouple servers from tiers so the population of any one server doesn’t lead to imbalanced matches. It wasn’t popular at all. Another idea is delete all the servers and remake them all: this is fairer, but very unpopular.

Although it would be a shame to disrupt a server for being successful, what I suggested in the original post here is, overall, the least harmful solution offered so far.

Remove the server lock, and allow everybody to join whatever server they want. The queue system will balance out the problem naturally. Bandwagoneers will flood BG en masse, and the lineup to play will force players to either wait hours or have them transfer to less populated servers as the system intended. Those unscrupulous stacking guilds will find the competition to enter WvW maps, located on stackgate, confounded by the flood of other like-minded “players” trying to take advantage of WvW manipulaton.

Anet has caused this problem, and are directly to blame for the current situation by limiting access, and rewarding server stacking. Remove those limits, and watch the titan fall.

Target them because they have been successful by playing by the established rules.

Target them because winning actually matters?

Target them because of all the precursors they get because they are in first.

It’s interesting. Supposedly score doesn’t matter, but now Blackgate is horrible because they score more.

I’d say that any server that drops its participation while facing Blackgate, or tanks a match while in a tier below BG gets deleted. No warning. If you are throwing a match: boom. Done. Because match manipulation is against the TOS.

Just stop.

We should also delete Blackgate the next time they decide to hibergate upon facing a matchup with servers that have the population to compete, yes?

Ultimately, no one who’s not on BG will disagree that that the three problems with WvW are Balance, Skill Lag, and Blackgate, while on the other hand people currently on Blackgate will continue to make excuses for the 70-man blobs they run all the time since they can’t handle a fair match.

Strider: Yes, it would be difficult for Blackgate if their player base has to change to a different server. It would be as unsettling for them as being linked was for the population of twelve servers, but this was still done for the benefit of the majority of players. How is this different now?

I disagree with you – the problem definitely is about which two servers want to fight against Blackgate. The players on all sides want to have an enjoyable game. There is no fun for Blackgate players if they don’t face a decent opposition. There is no fun for the opposition if they can’t compete. In essence, Blackgate’s success is it’s problem.

As for why don’t two servers work together, they do – this is what linking is about. There are even three server links. Yet even the two and three server linkings that Anet have created have not shaken the domination in T1. This says something about the strength and organisation and numbers on Blackgate.

I don’t like the idea of disrupting a server and forcing the population to spread to other servers. I would prefer for the Blackgate players themselves to choose to spread their expertise among the other servers willingly, however we both know there has been plenty of opportunity to do this and it just hasn’t happened.

There are other possibilities. For example I’ve suggested an alternative in a previous post that would decouple servers from tiers so the population of any one server doesn’t lead to imbalanced matches. It wasn’t popular at all. Another idea is delete all the servers and remake them all: this is fairer, but very unpopular.

Although it would be a shame to disrupt a server for being successful, what I suggested in the original post here is, overall, the least harmful solution offered so far.

Again, punish them for being successful. Great idea.

And when the next stacked server comes? Delete them too. Look at the match histories. By your definition, JQ should be deleted also.

Target them because they have been successful by playing by the established rules.

Target them because winning actually matters?

Target them because of all the precursors they get because they are in first.

It’s interesting. Supposedly score doesn’t matter, but now Blackgate is horrible because they score more.

I’d say that any server that drops its participation while facing Blackgate, or tanks a match while in a tier below BG gets deleted. No warning. If you are throwing a match: boom. Done. Because match manipulation is against the TOS.

Just stop.

We should also delete Blackgate the next time they decide to hibergate upon facing a matchup with servers that have the population to compete, yes?

Ultimately, no one who’s not on BG will disagree that that the three problems with WvW are Balance, Skill Lag, and Blackgate, while on the other hand people currently on Blackgate will continue to make excuses for the 70-man blobs they run all the time since they can’t handle a fair match.

Fair by what standards?

Do they field more than what the map holds?

Cmon.. get a little more original.

People don’t realize the most successful way to ‘win’ the matchup is to spread out. Havoc groups on multiple maps are far more likely to cap towers,

How about instead of “harming” anyone, just incentivize the population to rebalance itself. You could quadruple all rewards for servers below the Full threshold, double the rewards for servers at the Full threshold and cap those servers, and provide no increase to the servers above the Full threshold. I bet those over-Full servers would start de-stacking when players on Medium servers start earning their legendary armor in 1/4 the time.

How about instead of “harming” anyone, just incentivize the population to rebalance itself. You could quadruple all rewards for servers below the Full threshold, double the rewards for servers at the Full threshold and cap those servers, and provide no increase to the servers above the Full threshold. I bet those over-Full servers would start de-stacking when players on Medium servers start earning their legendary armor in 1/4 the time.

Would scaling rewards work? Probably, we’ve seen an influx of players since the legendary armour.
It probably wouldn’t matter so much for the “dedicated hard core” WvW players but it would help spread the rest of us around perhaps, and this would affect the balance of active players (which is the issue). It should also un-scale itself nicely as populations balance out…

Breaking the domination by a single, popular, well populated and coordinated server requires intervention by Anet

Intervention… why would the dev’s intervene with their own creation? They want it to be this way or they would have not created this situation or they’d have done something already to change it. It’s why players are dropping out and not playing as much. Heck, last week was the least I’ve played the game since launch. Didn’t even buy the expansion yet either.

All that really needs to happen is the WvW community has to come together to hit BG hard. Once it becomes an unpleasant experience, the fair-weathers will slow down and some will transfer off. It’s simply too easy and that’s what perpetuates the population.

The problems with wvw CAN NOT be fixed. People just want to win in the fastest way possible. Blackgate exists in it’s current form, because people want to run up and hit things once or twice and collect rewards with no chance to lose.

The second server transfers opened (years ago) they eternally broke any chance for wvw to be balanced. And, since transfers are revenue, they will never go away. No matter what you do to ANY server, all those “have to win instantly and all the time” folks will just go back to the same server eventually.

You can suggest changes to scoring, that might help a little. You can suggest changes to skills to help balance small group encounters. There is literally no point in the crusade to disband a server, because there is no way to do it.

Blackgate has been a very successful WvW server for a number of years now, and dominates NA T1. Unfortunately this domination is leading other servers to artificially adjust their play in order to drop out of T1 or to avoid going up into T1. Players are choosing to do this in order to have a better gaming experience – they are not happy with the current situation. This “race to the bottom” is not good for the game or the majority players, and it is time to do something about it.

Breaking the domination by a single, popular, well populated and coordinated server requires intervention by Anet, and will result in a big change for that server. However painful this may be, it needs to be done for the benefit of the majority of players on the other servers.

I can’t imagine that Blackgate players will be happy with this idea, and I completely understand any desire to see their successful server continue as it is. However all good things must come to an end, and there is precedent for Anet to intervene for the good of the game: linking was introduced to solve a WvW population problem, it was done for the benefit of the majority of players despite the protests of many people who were to be linked. When all the dust has settled, and despite the issues linking still has, the population spread is better than it was and WvW is better for it.

It’s time for Anet to step up to the plate again.

The one thing that is certain is that what is happening is not good for WvW and we can’t rely on players themselves to sort this out. We need Anet’s help; the question is what should they do?

Here’s a possible solution:

Announce that Blackgate will be closed in 2 months, and give players time to transfer to any open server of their own choice.

After the 2 months, close Blackgate. Promote the strongest linked server to host. Create a new linked server with a new name. Reduce the FULL status cap on all WvW servers to a fair level (perhaps 1/24th the total active WvW population) to stop any single server having dominant numbers.

Require any players who have not transferred from Blackgate to join an open server. The new link server will help with providing places.

This process would redistribute the Blackgate players across a number of other servers, and the lower full server population should ensure no single server achieves the same domination through numbers, because a host + link could have more players, and with Anet controlling the linking of servers any domination by a combination would only last until the next relink.

I’m sure Anet would be interested to read other constructive solutions too.

It is true. BG is in its own tier. Their coverage is insane. In the past 2 weeks I think out of all the times I have seen BG pop EWP and not port entire map que through it is maybe 1-2.

None of the servers they are facing (including my own currently) want to stay in T1 longterm. Only now and then for novelty of actually seeing / fighting such stupendous blobs.

Unfortunately, I really don’t see any solution to this whatsoever except break up BG to bring it to the level of other servers, and that won’t happen due to a wide plethora of reasons.

All that really needs to happen is the WvW community has to come together to hit BG hard. Once it becomes an unpleasant experience, the fair-weathers will slow down and some will transfer off. It’s simply too easy and that’s what perpetuates the population.

Nope. Last time that happened they bailed to EOTM for a month or so to the point where BG became open again and it got even worse. This might work, but only if BG is perma closed, permamently and unlike rest of WVW, has their EOTM and PVE populations counted towards population, so its not as easily manipulated.

Just face the facts, BG is it’s own tier. MegaBlackGate! Use the Megaserver system to split up BG randomly into 3 similar sized servers and pit them against each others in Tier BG ! And randomize them again each week, so the community can play together sometimes.

(Not entirely serious)

Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
“Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.”
“The objective is to win. The goal is to have fun.”

Wait, so if you guys “artificially” change your playstyles and habits its ok, but when Blackgate does it, its bad? Can you please list what rules they have broken, to justify “punishing” them.

If another server comes to dominate, should it be acceptable to form up this virtual mob with our pitchforks and torches, march up to the castle where the dev’s stir and slumber, and demand that action be taken against this new abomination….because well you know they don’t deserve to exist and should be punished for not actually doing anything wrong.

Yuffi, this is not a realistic solution… Trying to save the individual server vs server vs server model will not work, and will not yield any positive results…

CU is making a 3 factions model with many world maps to host many players (up to 1,000 players and bots can fight in the same space with decent fps btw)… If anet does not make more maps and move to factions style then there is no fixing what we currently have going on. And the more that anet clings to this individual server model, then the more they will push people away to a far superior “DAoC 2.0” rvr game… and DAoC was the inspiration for what we have here in wvw…

Peeps in this community can thump their chest for whatever server they want, but expect an empty wvw when the real rvr game launches… and I gaurantee there will be an exodus from gw2 wvw if things don’t change to compete with what’s coming… So, no, breaking 1 server won’t save wvw… adding more servers to link won’t save wvw… doing all sorts of weird ideas to salvage servers won’t save wvw… goofy battle grounds won’t save wvw…

New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro

221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.

Norbe: I still don’t understand. All you’ve done is change a word and keep the same misunderstandings. The definition of Constructive is “having a beneficial or useful purpose”; how do your responses fit this concept?

Only other solution I see that doesn’t remove the only problematic server we have. Is to the remove the full status from the game. Blackgate has more the double the population and in some cases triple the population and coverage, the any other full server with their links.

Since obviously BG don’t want to be destroy. Why not allow for all the servers the potential to rise to BG’s population and coverage status and beyond. All ANet would have to do is remove the population cap. Maybe even lower server map population cap.

I maybe a troll with class.
But at least I admit it!
PoF guys get ready for PvE joys

OMG jelly much. I wished the people complaining actually watched BG get double teamed every week. Maybe if the other servers stop siege, spawn camping, spying, oh and using alts accounts to jam our ability to get our ppl on a map. Quit cheating and maybe you will win more. We are closed most of the time, being loyal to a server shouldn’t be punished. If we are forced to disband there will be hell to pay on whatever servers we are forced to be on. It took me 6 months to get on my daughter’s server. I finally get to play with my daughter and you want to split us up, thanks guys your awesome!

OMG jelly much. I wished the people complaining actually watched BG get double teamed every week. Maybe if the other servers stop siege, spawn camping, spying, oh and using alts accounts to jam our ability to get our ppl on a map. Quit cheating and maybe you will win more. We are closed most of the time, being loyal to a server shouldn’t be punished. If we are forced to disband there will be hell to pay on whatever servers we are forced to be on. It took me 6 months to get on my daughter’s server. I finally get to play with my daughter and you want to split us up, thanks guys your awesome!

My last comment wasn’t asking you to split up, or disband. It was just putting the idea out there. Maybe ANet should just remove the population caps altogether. That way people can go where they want to.

No full server have to worry about will have to worry about population cap even tho BG has double to triple their numbers. Blackgate players don’t have to worry about getting disbanded. Actually under my last proposal Blackgate would also be giving the chance to grow it’s server some more.

Then ANet would be able to slowly start merging or closing close to or actually empty servers. Almost everyone wins here.

Here are the facts almost all of the servers coordinate tanking not to face BG. Why you might ask? Because it’s no fun being that 300 Spartans fighting the whole of the Persian army. These last few week even on my server guilds have been reduced, to purposely tank the server score. So we didn’t have to fight BG’s hordes.

Or we can revisit my other proposal about completely removing the AOE cap in WvW only. That like in ESO a smaller more coordinated group of say 8 players. Can actually have a chance against 40 mindless near-hive minded zerglings.

I maybe a troll with class.
But at least I admit it!
PoF guys get ready for PvE joys

In my mind the primary issue is that almost all the big OCX guilds have quit the game and BG has the last two good ones. BG can be matched during EU, they can be matched during NA and they can even be matched during SEA though they have some very strong SEA guilds/pugs. What no one can match is their OCX and that’s the timezone where they’re resetting their opponent’s objectives while simultaneously upgrading their objectives. This then feeds into SEA where they’re able to play extremely aggressively all the way into EU where they can just tread water until OCX rolls around again. BG cannot be beaten until this problem has been neutralized.

Agreed. Therefore there is nothing that BG has done wrong. Read the TOS.

I don’t think the OP is saying they’ve done anything wrong, at least no more than other servers. But the fact is what he is saying is correct, BGs dominance has a deleterious effect on the mode overall and it promises to continue long term until people have their shinies.

Plenty of BG players have moved off in search of less blobby fights, myself included. The reason why BG’s still so strong regardless of the dozens of guilds and hundreds of players that have moved off in the past year or so is because there is a group of very strong leaders on the server.

Servers live and die from their leaders, commanders and active community members (in that order). The only 2 other servers that even come close to having what BG does is Maguuma and Jade Quarry. Even the server I’m on right now has little to no cohesive leadership – everyone just plays how they want (which is great, but not great for making a server successful).

How about instead of “harming” anyone, just incentivize the population to rebalance itself. You could quadruple all rewards for servers below the Full threshold, double the rewards for servers at the Full threshold and cap those servers, and provide no increase to the servers above the Full threshold. I bet those over-Full servers would start de-stacking when players on Medium servers start earning their legendary armor in 1/4 the time.

Have to keep in mind that there are a few full servers due to their pve population.
However, what would be interesting is if Anet keep BG closed and opened up Magumma

Agreed. Therefore there is nothing that BG has done wrong. Read the TOS.

I don’t think the OP is saying they’ve done anything wrong, at least no more than other servers. But the fact is what he is saying is correct, BGs dominance has a deleterious effect on the mode overall and it promises to continue long term until people have their shinies.

And BTW you keep saying they but you must be on BG yourself.

Two things: what you quoted wasn’t in reference to the OP. Agreed that he isn’t suggesting BG has violated the TOS.