Ta-mei Fa-chang (752-839) was a Chinese Ch'an master. After he got awakened underthe Great master Ma-tsu Tao-i (709-788), he went to the Ta-mei mountain and resided there.
One day there was a traveling monk who got lost in the Ta-mei...
continue...

Posted on Feb.10.2007 @ 10:29AM EDTbyfatnhappy
As some of you know I have been struggling with the concept of what God is . I have been doing some research and anything I read or discuss with others is pure opinion . For this mind its hard to put a realism or paint a picture of what God is . Many people believe there is one , or many or that there in not . I am confused about where the idea of an entity or all knowing being came from .

While it is arguable that there is evidence for the creation of the universe, there is nothing to suggest what was there before it became what we generally accept as manifest. If its like everything else in known reality, the universe is the result of previous energies and conditions.

Its not hard for mind to paint a picture of God, its incredibly easy for mind to do that and we've been doing it with instances of supreme vanity for quite some time.

If you accept that God IS everything holistically as some Christians now emphasise more and more then the movement AND stillness of your own mind is inherently 'God' and you need not look nor think further.

If you accept that he's some seperate sort of wise guy who stands back with his hands up as we make assholes of ourselves and each other then imagine 'him' to your hearts content: everybody else in this school is.

The languages of God, come as a surprise, are in all sensations and thoughts, can transcend time and space, are not limited by dimension. God dwells in silence most comfortably, as in compassion. God dwells in discomfort as potential of rebirth.

The word of "God" is dropped as sound reference in communion, is not capable of being spoken of as a matter of pride and separation. It is capable of existing under any and all conditions. It is not tested, for lacking.

Topic closed!68495

Reply from boymonk

Feb.10.2007
12:18PM EDT

For God, the universe came first. For the universe, God came first. Women usually come second, or not at all. hehe

If you make one of them home Buddha altars... what's the first thing you put on it? Be honest. Or where is the first place you look after this thought? No, a little higher. Still higher. Keep goin'. Ok, can stop looking now.

A hermit was meditating by a river when a young man interrupted him. "Master, I wish to become your disciple," said the man. "Why?" replied the hermit. The young man thought for a moment. "Because I want to find God."

The master jumped up, grabbed him by the scruff of his neck, dragged him into the river, and plunged his head under water. After holding him there for a minute, with him kicking and struggling to free himself, the master finally pulled him up out of the river. The young man coughed up water and gasped to get his breath. When he eventually quieted down, the master spoke. "Tell me, what did you want most of all when you were under water." "Air!" answered the man.

"Very well," said the master. "Go home and come back to me when you want God as much as you just wanted air."

"Very well," said the master. "Go home and come back to me when you want God as much as you just wanted air."

Me chooks are all zzzzzzzzzzzzing comfy-like and content right now. In daylight they see beyond any mask - sometimes one is first and another last, held in the hand of the beloved - a forever enough chicken - that's it.

While it is arguable that there is evidence for the creation of the universe, there is nothing to suggest what was there before it became what we generally accept as manifest. If its like everything else in known reality, the universe is the result of previous energies and conditions.

Its not hard for mind to paint a picture of God, its incredibly easy for mind to do that and we've been doing it with instances of supreme vanity for quite some time.

If you accept that God IS everything holistically as some Christians now emphasise more and more then the movement AND stillness of your own mind is inherently 'God' and you need not look nor think further.

If you accept that he's some seperate sort of wise guy who stands back with his hands up as we make assholes of ourselves and each other then imagine 'him' to your hearts content: everybody else in this school is.

All the best,

Harry.

".........

Harry,

I think you are exactly rigbnt.

I would add:

Once again, this is a case of the question itself being faulty, because it rests on unchallenged, and unconfirmed assumptions. It assumes there is anything real which corresponds to our concept called "god."

This is just more plain old everyday mind. We mistake our concepts for reality. We have an idea of god, so we assume there must really be something called god out there somewhere. Concepts are useful tools, that's all. Pick them up when you need them, put them down when you're done with them.

God is a concept, just like the "self." The concept called "god" is probably the most dangerous concept of all. How much evil has come into the world in his name? And how much mushy-headed thinking and self-inflating consolation.

God was invented because we're scared of dying. We are scared of dying because we are attached to our notion of ourselves as individual selves. If we wake up to the awareness of no-self we can dispense with god, too, and see the world the way it really is, unmediated by our concepts.

Peace,

En Shin

Topic closed!68548

Reply from ______

Feb.11.2007
09:36AM EDT

'God' is a word for something you don't have an answer or question for. If you only knew the answer, eh? Did you say you are 'awakened'?

In the market, in the cloister--only God I saw. In the valley and on the mountain--only God I saw. Him I have seen beside me oft in tribulation; In favour and in fortune--only God I saw. In prayer and fasting, in praise and contemplation, In the religion of the Prophet--only God I saw. Neither soul nor body, accident nor substance, Qualities nor causes--only God I saw. I oped mine eyes and by the light of His face around me In all the eye discovered--only God I saw. Like a candle I was melting in His fire: Amidst the flames outflashing--only God I saw. Myself with mine own eyes I saw most clearly, But when I looked with God's eyes--only God I saw. I passed away into nothingness, I vanished, And lo, I was the All-living--only God I saw.

God was invented because we're scared of dying. We are scared of dying because we are attached to our notion of ourselves as individual selves. If we wake up to the awareness of no-self we can dispense with god, too, and see the world the way it really is, unmediated by our concepts.

if we have no self then how come i projected out of my body and scared my mother?

God was invented because we&apos;re scared of dying. We are scared of dying because we are attached to our notion of ourselves as individual selves. If we wake up to the awareness of no-self we can dispense with god, too, and see the world the way it really is, unmediated by our concepts.

if we have no self then how come i projected out of my body and scared my mother?

".........

".........

word God can be used for not imagining-a-God

"if we have no self then how come i projected out of my body and scared my mother?"

Listening to the questions in silence, mindfully and one dispenses with answers (too many answers - better to listen carefully to the question), rather than worry about "dispensing with God". For some, words are traps - words are everywhere, advertising hoardings, television, newspapers and magazines et al saying taste, smell, eat, drink and buy. For some, words seem to have have lost the power to create and have no meaning beyond "buy me". But God speaks light.

To say there is no God is like saying, "I have no tongue" with my own tongue. When someone says, "There is no God", in that moment there is an agreement that there is God. When we say that something is 'not' we imply a previous knowledge of that something. So, how do you prove the non-existence of something not known?

God was invented because we&apos;re scared of dying. We are scared of dying because we are attached to our notion of ourselves as individual selves. If we wake up to the awareness of no-self we can dispense with god, too, and see the world the way it really is, unmediated by our concepts.

if we have no self then how come i projected out of my body and scared my mother?

".........

".........

word God can be used for not imagining-a-God

"if we have no self then how come i projected out of my body and scared my mother?"

was imagining-projection (a self that could be "projected")

".........

".........

it really happened. the doors opened and closed by themselves and she was freaked out for two days.

all this talk of god is speculation. their is zen buddhists that believe in god. its called gedo zen. some will say no god and others will say god. any formulation in the mind will be just that. no one knows for sure. no one can. no one speaks to god and he answers. this is a good koan though and one that should be meditated on if you desire an answer. the only answer i can give is i dont know. someone first mentioned the idea of god to someone else. that word god first started somewhere. it has to do with the idea of a permanant self. which we have. it is the buddha nature. what made this nature? if reincarnation is then their is a permanant self that manifests through differant life times. but what made this first occurance of the soul?

Topic closed!68717

Reply from ZenTurtle

Feb.16.2007
05:05AM EDT

"Listening to the questions in silence, mindfully and one dispenses with answers (too many answers - better to listen carefully to the question), rather than worry about "dispensing with God". For some, words are traps - words are everywhere, advertising hoardings, television, newspapers and magazines et al saying taste, smell, eat, drink and buy. For some, words seem to have have lost the power to create and have no meaning beyond "buy me". But God speaks light.

To say there is no God is like saying, "I have no tongue" with my own tongue. When someone says, "There is no God", in that moment there is an agreement that there is God. When we say that something is 'not' we imply a previous knowledge of that something. So, how do you prove the non-existence of something not known?"

**********

First I'm going to start by saying "I have a lisp"

An eccentric philosophy professor gave a one question final exam after a semester dealing with a broad array of topics.

The class was already seated and ready to go when the professor picked up his chair, plopped it on his desk and wrote on the board: "Using everything we have learned this semester, prove that this chair does not exist."

Fingers flew, erasers erased, notebooks were filled in furious fashion. Some students wrote over 30 pages in one hour attempting to refute the existence of the chair. One member of the class however, was up and finished in less than a minute.

Weeks later when the grades were posted, the rest of the group wondered how he could have gotten an A when he had barely written anything at all.
This is what he wrote: "What chair?"

While it is arguable that there is evidence for the creation of the universe, there is nothing to suggest what was there before it became what we generally accept as manifest. If its like everything else in known reality, the universe is the result of previous energies and conditions.

Its not hard for mind to paint a picture of God, its incredibly easy for mind to do that and we&apos;ve been doing it with instances of supreme vanity for quite some time.

If you accept that God IS everything holistically as some Christians now emphasise more and more then the movement AND stillness of your own mind is inherently &apos;God&apos; and you need not look nor think further.

If you accept that he&apos;s some seperate sort of wise guy who stands back with his hands up as we make assholes of ourselves and each other then imagine &apos;him&apos; to your hearts content: everybody else in this school is.

All the best,

Harry.

".........

Harry,

I think you are exactly rigbnt.

I would add:

Once again, this is a case of the question itself being faulty, because it rests on unchallenged, and unconfirmed assumptions. It assumes there is anything real which corresponds to our concept called "god."

This is just more plain old everyday mind. We mistake our concepts for reality. We have an idea of god, so we assume there must really be something called god out there somewhere. Concepts are useful tools, that&apos;s all. Pick them up when you need them, put them down when you&apos;re done with them.

God is a concept, just like the "self." The concept called "god" is probably the most dangerous concept of all. How much evil has come into the world in his name? And how much mushy-headed thinking and self-inflating consolation.

God was invented because we&apos;re scared of dying. We are scared of dying because we are attached to our notion of ourselves as individual selves. If we wake up to the awareness of no-self we can dispense with god, too, and see the world the way it really is, unmediated by our concepts.

Peace,

En Shin

"......... The concept of god also functions as a final authority for what is really human morality. "Doing such and such is wrong because my god says it is wrong and don't you forget it." Buddhism takes a completely different approach by applying the law of cause and effect to moral questions.

Topic closed!68767

Reply from ______

Feb.17.2007
10:38AM EDT

The concept of Buddha serves the same purpose, "functions as a final authority" for pious, puritan Buddhists. The approach may be different (arguable) but the result is the same.

...no-one knows... if it isn't, then it or he/she must be the first one arising first...no matter what it or he/she is being called or named as... NOW is happening just in a flash of moment...no more no less..., if not then it is you me & him make all the stories more interesting games on earth...

Quote: "The concept of Buddha serves the same purpose, "functions as a final authority" for pious, puritan Buddhists. The approach may be different (arguable) but the result is the same. "......... Last week I spent three days on a jury in a capital murder case. On the final day of the trial one of our fellow jurors distributed to all of us a small pamphlet with the words Someday Soon You Will Stand Before God emblazoned on the front.He said that he wanted to make sure he met us all again in heaven. I've never been handed a pamphlet with the words Someday You Will Stand Before Buddha on it. My understanding of Buddhist morality is that if something is beneficial for oneself and others then it is good, while if something is harmful to oneself and others then it is bad with the understanding that because of interconnectedness one's self and others are really one.This obviously requires us to use our brains at times to figure out what is right or wrong. With a god centered religion morality is whatever that particular god decides it is at that particular moment.

Quote: "Quote: "The concept of Buddha serves the same purpose, "functions as a final authority" for pious, puritan Buddhists. The approach may be different (arguable) but the result is the same. "......... Last week I spent three days on a jury in a capital murder case. On the final day of the trial one of our fellow jurors distributed to all of us a small pamphlet with the words Someday Soon You Will Stand Before God emblazoned on the front.He said that he wanted to make sure he met us all again in heaven. I&apos;ve never been handed a pamphlet with the words Someday You Will Stand Before Buddha on it. My understanding of Buddhist morality is that if something is beneficial for oneself and others then it is good, while if something is harmful to oneself and others then it is bad with the understanding that because of interconnectedness one&apos;s self and others are really one.This obviously requires us to use our brains at times to figure out what is right or wrong. With a god centered religion morality is whatever that particular god decides it is at that particular moment. "......... For example, if in the Biblical story in which Abraham is commanded to sacrifice his son Isaac God had not stopped Abraham at the last moment and Abraham had killed Isaac then that would have been right. If I had written that story I would have written it differently. I would have had Abraham refusing at the last moment telling God to do to him whatever he would but that he would not murder his own son. And then I would have had God tell him that he had passed the test for his selfless act in being willing to accept punishment for not killing Isaac.

Topic closed!68805

Reply from ______

Feb.18.2007
10:36AM EDT

So you have never been handed a pamphlet with the words, "Someday you will stand before Buddha on it". So what? Does that make you feel more knowing, superior, better than the poor deluded guy with the pamphlet babbling on about heaven to you?

Worrying about selective and narrow interpretations of what you call, "god-centred religion" doesn't really help anyone, so I would presume that for you that's bad. As far as your re-writing of OT stories goes, well they are just that, stories, histories, written by people. Some particular so-called Christians like to bang on about them a lot. Puritan pious Buddhists punch sutras and formulae.

...suppose there is a 'god' & of course there must be such a ' person' called either 'you' 'me' or 'him' in the first place... and therefore you me or him knows god & most of us if not all can talk & describe this & that etc etc etc about god, BUT does god knows & understands either you me or him, does he or she or it keep constant contact with us? If yes, what does he freshen up or update us, & if no, is she or he or it a non-self too & it is you me or him that make thing happenning in the mind? Similarily, to the so called universe, without you me & him, who called it as universe?

...and who is this so called you me & him? How depth do we know/understand/realise its nature? Without knowing, understanding or realising the basic oursleves, how the hell we possibly know or talk about others? So at the end of the day, it must be having a " I " as self-existence in order to start with... then the moment you me or him realise its non-selfhoodness, we are at that instant feeling panic or scared...cos it is the opposite to our strong established view in our memory... may be oneday gradually you me or him may feel calmness & coolness... why bother who or which come first...?

Topic closed!68816

Reply from ______

Feb.18.2007
05:32PM EDT

That's way complicated but we did ("called it") with dictionaries and words, God and the universe, and more. This is one of the ways in which we communicate and relate with each other. And highlights the problems associated with the practice of hanging words on that which is beyond words, of attempting to understand that which is beyond intellectual understanding. Why worry about objectifying it?

...eat when you are hungry, sleep when you are tired, work when you are running short of food/cash & so forth & so forth...with wholesome mindful mind & its activties at all times...in daily normal living life...

Quote: "So you have never been handed a pamphlet with the words, "Someday you will stand before Buddha on it". So what? Does that make you feel more knowing, superior, better than the poor deluded guy with the pamphlet babbling on about heaven to you?

Worrying about selective and narrow interpretations of what you call, "god-centred religion" doesn&apos;t really help anyone, so I would presume that for you that&apos;s bad. As far as your re-writing of OT stories goes, well they are just that, stories, histories, written by people. Some particular so-called Christians like to bang on about them a lot. Puritan pious Buddhists punch sutras and formulae. "......... The fact that I've never been handed a pamphlet stating Someday You Will Stand Before Buddha doesn't make me feel superior to anyone. It means that Buddha is not worshiped as a god forcing his notion of morality on us. I've never had any experience with any pious, puritan Buddhists such as you describe. The problem with dismissing the OT stories as just stories is that they are stories meant to make a point. In the story cited the point is that you have to submit your own notion of right or wrong to the will of god. My version (which I don't intend to write because I'm not a writer) is that we are responsible ourselves for figuring out what is right or wrong. In my version sacrificing Isaac would have meant failing the test.

Oh, and why do you sit on a jury in a capital murder case? ".........I sat on the jury because I couldn't think of a legitimate excuse not to and I couldn't afford the 30 days jail time and/or fine a contempt of court citation for refusing. I was shocked and dismayed when out of some 80 odd potential jurors my name was called. A very depressing business.

Quote: "Quote: "So you have never been handed a pamphlet with the words, "Someday you will stand before Buddha on it". So what? Does that make you feel more knowing, superior, better than the poor deluded guy with the pamphlet babbling on about heaven to you?

Worrying about selective and narrow interpretations of what you call, "god-centred religion" doesn&apos;t really help anyone, so I would presume that for you that&apos;s bad. As far as your re-writing of OT stories goes, well they are just that, stories, histories, written by people. Some particular so-called Christians like to bang on about them a lot. Puritan pious Buddhists punch sutras and formulae. "......... The fact that I&apos;ve never been handed a pamphlet stating Someday You Will Stand Before Buddha doesn&apos;t make me feel superior to anyone. It means that Buddha is not worshiped as a god forcing his notion of morality on us. I&apos;ve never had any experience with any pious, puritan Buddhists such as you describe. The problem with dismissing the OT stories as just stories is that they are stories meant to make a point. In the story cited the point is that you have to submit your own notion of right or wrong to the will of god. My version (which I don&apos;t intend to write because I&apos;m not a writer) is that we are responsible ourselves for figuring out what is right or wrong. In my version sacrificing Isaac would have meant failing the test."......... And while you and I might agree that these are just stories many millions of Christians, Jews, and Muslims regard them as factual history except that in the Muslim version it is Ismail who is to be sacrificed not Isaac. What is the underlying principle of Judaic, Christian, Islamic morality? God decides what is right or wrong. What gives him that right? The fact that he is allmighty. In other words might makes right. I don't mean that statement as religion bashing just as a contrast with my understanding of Buddhist morality as already expressed in a previous post. By the way, while I disagree with the man's religious views I do not look down on him as a "poor deluded guy." In fact he was quite sincere,intelligent, and personable. I am always willing to accept that other people have their reasons, perfectly valid to them, for believing as they do. This includes the Christians, Jews, and Muslims who believe those stories are factual history.

Actually, this is a problem for Buddhists especially since they generally do not believe in creation per se. If there was no beginning and will be no ending, as the Buddha apparently taught, then where does the "Big Bang" figure in? I see Buddhism as the most scientific of philosophies/religions, but there are problems when dealing with physics and astrophysics. I would like to see a Buddhist physicist answer these questions.

The question of the existence of God, does not have a beginning or ending, as question in the sense on one answer making it any more or less apparent or real within anyone's life. First, drop the name, or drop the misunderstanding of making God happen through a name, of the past.

Proper names themselves are assigned from external sources. Any one being can be described with many names, definitions that encapsulate that person's characteristics.

If you search for God in a name there will be no answer, only words, assigned authorities.

But if you search out silence, if you search out sadness in yourself, you may find a beginning and ending in that. The beginning and ending of sadness comes from being disillusioned, and looking at things a whole new way, without the sadness, or the anger and disappointment whatever that may be, whatever makes that state seem solid. One has to look inside for the answer, it is between you and God alone.

Quote: "The question of the existence of God, does not have a beginning or ending, as question in the sense on one answer making it any more or less apparent or real within anyone&apos;s life. First, drop the name, or drop the misunderstanding of making God happen through a name, of the past.

Proper names themselves are assigned from external sources. Any one being can be described with many names, definitions that encapsulate that person&apos;s characteristics.

If you search for God in a name there will be no answer, only words, assigned authorities.

But if you search out silence, if you search out sadness in yourself, you may find a beginning and ending in that. The beginning and ending of sadness comes from being disillusioned, and looking at things a whole new way, without the sadness, or the anger and disappointment whatever that may be, whatever makes that state seem solid. One has to look inside for the answer, it is between you and God alone.".........

Quote: "Is it riding a skateboard? Or was that before he was a chicken? ".........

hahahaha

Topic closed!68839

Reply from boymonk

Feb.19.2007
07:47PM EDT

Maybe in another 50 posts I'll get the joke too.

Topic closed!68840

Reply from ______

Feb.20.2007
06:15AM EDT

I am not responsible for the "many millions of Christians, Jews and Muslims" interpretations of scripture.

Xt: Before Abraham was, I am.

Topic closed!68852

Reply from ZenTurtle

Feb.20.2007
09:07AM EDT

"Actually, this is a problem for Buddhists especially since they generally do not believe in creation per se. If there was no beginning and will be no ending, as the Buddha apparently taught, then where does the "Big Bang" figure in? I see Buddhism as the most scientific of philosophies/religions, but there are problems when dealing with physics and astrophysics. I would like to see a Buddhist physicist answer these questions.

..."struggling with the concept of what God is". Easy - don't struggle with concepts.

..."hard to put a realism or paint a picture of what God is."Excellent. Don't try.

..."confused about where the idea of an ... all knowing being came from."Same place all ideas come from.

..."which came first God or the Universe?"Suddenly you aren't talking concepts. Listen to that question and live it. "......... thanx Rustic > My point is i dont know . so many people speak of God . Say they love it and usually they say him but why would God be male ? So Im really trying to learn what so many try to unlearn, I think its good to understand first hand something than to look through the window at it .. you cannot peel the potato with out peeling it. I can meditate all day but i feel like its a waist of life and is non productive when my intentions are good . maybe someday i would bring a smile to your face and my life would have been worth living .

Quote: "Quote: " So Im really trying to learn what so many try to unlearn, I think its good to understand first hand something than to look through the window at it .. you cannot peel the potato with out peeling it. I can meditate all day but i feel like its a waist of life and is non productive when my intentions are good . maybe someday i would bring a smile to your face and my life would have been worth living .".........

glugshgob

;)

Topic closed!68878

Reply from ______

Feb.20.2007
03:48PM EDT

fnh, No need to try to understand, living in the question is enough - silence is an orchard when it isn't raining.

A Zen master had a faithful but very naive student who regard him as a living Buddha. One day the master accidently sat down on a needle. He screamed "Ouch" and jumped into the air.

The student instantly lost all his faith and left, saying how disappointed he was to find that his master was not fully enlightened. Otherwise, he thought, how could he jump up and scream out loud like that?

The master was sad when he realised his student had left, and said:"Alas, poor man! If only he had known that in reality neither I, nor the needle, nor the "ouch" really existed."

Man's first duty is to work out his own salvation from himself, god and the universe.So don't waste time speculating.

There isn't a side that tragedy doesn't have... a bitter irony in that it can lead one out of birth and death, if one comes to understand it's purpose, but can lead one further into despair if it is not seen as transient as decay. One's life force still rises out of tragedy as in any ending..

Quote: "There isn&apos;t a side that tragedy doesn&apos;t have... a bitter irony in that it can lead one out of birth and death, if one comes to understand it&apos;s purpose, but can lead one further into despair if it is not seen as transient as decay. One&apos;s life force still rises out of tragedy as in any ending.. ".........

Quote: "There isn&apos;t a side that tragedy doesn&apos;t have... a bitter irony in that it can lead one out of birth and death, if one comes to understand it&apos;s purpose, but can lead one further into despair if it is not seen as transient as decay. One&apos;s life force still rises out of tragedy as in any ending.. ".........

Quote: "There isn&apos;t a side that tragedy doesn&apos;t have... a bitter irony in that it can lead one out of birth and death, if one comes to understand it&apos;s purpose, but can lead one further into despair if it is not seen as transient as decay. One&apos;s life force still rises out of tragedy as in any ending.. ".........

Took care of someone who knows me as a friendly nurse, that will stay with him in fear and pain, who enjoys his company, the dying man, I watch him breathe deeper, calmer while asleep... shallower, faster when he wakes. Awake he is miserable, asleep he is calm. When he is miserable I am miserable I am looking for ways to calm him, when he is calm I am looking for ways to calm myself.

I look out the windows a lot, sometimes I see colors that aren't there, so I convince myself that the illusion is better this way. The snow is not white like a cloud on paper. The brother is not sick as sickness is no stranger.

of Suffering, the origin of Suffering, the extinction of Suffering and the Path leading to the extinction of Suffering.

May all living beings come to know, practices and benefit from the Sublime Dharma.

May all share the merits of this Dharma-giving and attain wisdom that can liberate from all suffering.

With metta.

Topic closed!69331

Reply from ______

Mar.04.2007
06:52AM EDT

Of all mental activity, and of all thoughts that arise in the mind, the I-thought is the first. After this thought, other thoughts arise - second and third personal pronouns. Push from exterior to the mind inward and interior pull to self and so abide in silence. One who sees no difference between oneself and others, is free of the idea that he/she is enlightened and others are not.

Quote: "Of all mental activity, and of all thoughts that arise in the mind, the I-thought is the first. After this thought, other thoughts arise - second and third personal pronouns. Push from exterior to the mind inward and interior pull to self and so abide in silence. One who sees no difference between oneself and others, is free of the idea that he/she is enlightened and others are not. ".........