Discuss anything and everything related to the Transformers Live Action Films franchise, which are directed by Michael Bay. Transformers 3 is scheduled to be released on July 1st, 2011. Check out our Live Action Film section here.

AbsumZer0 wrote:And if someone is going to go about insisting that it's superior to what came before it, fine, but they should at least have seen what they're comparing it to. Some of the Showa Godzilla films were cheap, yes, but to dismiss the Heisei films as 'rubber suits and cardboard buildings' it becomes obvious he hasn't seen them.

I've seen damn near every Godzilla film. I know full well what I'm comparing it to. When you place the old against the '98 movie, the old is cheap rubber suits and cardboard sets.

Now, that doesn't devalue your rose colored vision of it, but its still a rose colored vision. Just because you read something into a franchise, doesn't mean everyone else will as well, and it doesn't make you superior to them for not having the same interpretation.

Then Predator and the first two Alien films are crappy movies with cheap suits and cardboard sets, compared to the majesty of the special effects might of Godzilla or Van Helsing, right?

I hope you aren't tying to suggest that the "effects" and costumes of the old Godzilla movies are on par with Predator and the Alien films, are you?

Not the old Showa-era films. I'm still not talking about them. The late Heisei-era films. The ones immediately precluding the Tristar Godzilla, from the early to mid 90's. The ones with animatronics. Those films didn't have the careful editing or the darkness to make them look quite so superb, but in terms of detail and technology the suits were definitely on-par.

'98 Godzilla made a ton of money.
--However, the owners of "Godzilla" hated it.
--Most old fans hated it.
--Critics hated it.
--The people who worked on it lost professional credibility.
--And the company who'd made GREAT profits on releasing toys of the classic versions went under soon after taking a hit on the new version not selling for crap. (Read: No long-term new "fans", just disenfranchised old ones).

Is that a "success", or a case of MASSIVE, OVER-SATURATIVE ADVERTISING reeling in a bunch of newbies while ALSO reeling in fans by using a HOUSEHOLD name?
Godzilla 98 making money was due to "trickery", not because it was a good movie. So, despite my feelings of nostalgia, i agree the old ones did suck somewhat... but when a company pawns something off as something it's not, spending millions to do so and trick the entire world into seeing it... I get pissed.

As for godzilla 98 being an approach at "being more serious"... dude, it was the lack of seriousness that murdered it.
I threw up when I saw the leaked character design. But seeing it in action, I then LOVED that Godzilla in a different way than the original.

So why'd I and most others hate Godzilla 98?

The movie itself didn't know what it was.It said "Godzilla", but he wasn't Godzilla.
The creature was well animated, more realistic, and physically more logical... but the BAD actors, with all their little one-liners and the constant dropping of pop culture references didn't jive.

If the "human aspect" of godzilla 98 had matched the serious new rendition of the creature, it would've been a GREAT movie.

That didn't happen.
And since elements seen in the leaked Transformers script seem to mostly be spot-on, it appears that Transformers is going the same way.

The movie itself doesn't know what it is.It says "transformers" but they're not them.
The robots will be well animated, with a more serious approach to their physical transformations... but the BAD actors, with all their little one-liners and the constant dropping of pop culture references won't jive.

Oh, but I haven't seen the movie yet. I can't know that that's truly how it'll be, right?Bullshit.
The script has thus far closely matched what has been released.
Likewise, if one reads the Godzilla 98 script, it is QUITE clear what to expect in the movie.

Anyway, slightly off-topic, ...Is it illegal to kick people in the nuts who say movies that make good financial returns MUST be "good"?

Seriously, Godzilla, probably like transformers will, made alot of money (initially) due to HEAVY marketing and household name recognition.
But it DID also suck.

ShadowmanPost Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:33 pm

EDIT:

Sorry, I didn't quite specify:Three people just made large posts about why they should've made a sequel to a series most Americans aren't familiar with.

Very good. You're saying "Godzilla" wasn't an instantly-recognizable, generation-spanning household name over many decades. You're right. Keep up the good work.

And by that, I actually mean, "WHAT in the holy HELL?"

Last edited by Riotflea on Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:03 pm, edited 7 times in total.

Riotflea wrote:Anyway, slightly off-topic, ...Is it illegal to kick people in the nuts who say movies that make good financial returns MUST be "good"?

Seriously, Godzilla, probably like transformers will, made alkot of money (initially) due to HEAVY marketing and household name recognition. But it DID also suck.

Actually, Godzilla made a lot of money in foreign release but barely broke even domestically and that was only due to Tristar's demanding an unusually large portion of the per-ticket sales. As a result Tristar is about the only one that really made money off the film. The theaters got shafted because they couldn't fill the cinemas, Trendmasters and the other companies who paid out the nose for licenses lost money because their product wasn't moving, the retailers selling Godzilla merchandise lost money because they had to clearance it. Apart from the poor reviews another reason Tristar didn't go ahead with a sequel is because they wouldn't have been able to sell licenses.

Zuko wrote:Woohoo for explosions, tiny plot and transforming robots beating the piss out of each other!

YEEHAW!!!!!!!

What a spirited debate we have going here! To think, this is all over a few character designs. If a new trailer comes out, there might be blood spilled.

I was thinkin' of a witty response to this, but hell, with the way things are going now you may be right.

@Down_Shift, recommended Godzilla viewing:

Gojira(they just released a 2-disc set with this and Godzilla:King of the Monsters. Gojira is far superior.)
Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla
Godzilla vs. Spacegodzilla
Godzilla vs. Destroyah
Godzilla 2000
Godzilla against Mechagodzilla
Godzilla GMK

These are my personal favs. And do yourself a favor, stay far, VERY FAR away from Godzilla 98. Anyone out there see Final Wars, I have yet to?

"Consider the knowledge dropped."From ToplessRobot.com:• "Watching Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is marginally better than sh***ing your pants, but it takes a lot longer." Very well put.

I have a soft spot in my heart for Godzilla vs. Megalon.
It looks like it was done on a shoestring budget.
It has WONKY, physically impossible kung fu sequences. (godzilla AIR KICK?!? lol)
It had a robot who was a clear ripoff of Tsuburaya's 'Ultraman'.
A really cheesy car chase that utilizes even cheaper tape editing "action" effects.
And the kid had cool toys.

Zuko wrote:Woohoo for explosions, tiny plot and transforming robots beating the piss out of each other!

YEEHAW!!!!!!!

What a spirited debate we have going here! To think, this is all over a few character designs. If a new trailer comes out, there might be blood spilled.

I was thinkin' of a witty response to this, but hell, with the way things are going now you may be right.

@Down_Shift, recommended Godzilla viewing:

Gojira(they just released a 2-disc set with this and Godzilla:King of the Monsters. Gojira is far superior.)Godzilla vs. MechagodzillaGodzilla vs. SpacegodzillaGodzilla vs. DestroyahGodzilla 2000Godzilla against MechagodzillaGodzilla GMK

These are my personal favs. And do yourself a favor, stay far, VERY FAR away from Godzilla 98. Anyone out there see Final Wars, I have yet to?

Isn't final wars the one that's supposed to have G2000 vs GINO(Godzilla in name only)?

I've so been wanting to see that.

Oh, & as far as Tristar's Gino is concerned....I didn't see much difference between it & another popular disaster movie: Twister...other than one was about a giant lizard in a big city, & the other was about tornados in the midwest. aside from a couple of obvious differences, they both pretty much have the same plot.

D-340 wrote:I was thinkin' of a witty response to this, but hell, with the way things are going now you may be right.

@Down_Shift, recommended Godzilla viewing:

Gojira(they just released a 2-disc set with this and Godzilla:King of the Monsters. Gojira is far superior.)Godzilla vs. MechagodzillaGodzilla vs. SpacegodzillaGodzilla vs. DestroyahGodzilla 2000Godzilla against MechagodzillaGodzilla GMK

These are my personal favs. And do yourself a favor, stay far, VERY FAR away from Godzilla 98. Anyone out there see Final Wars, I have yet to?

I bought Final Wars as soon as it came out. The references to past films (like the alien antagonists, Minilla, and GINO) are there and it doesn't take itself seriously at all which is kind of nice. I've heard people complain about all the human scenes but there really isn't any more dialogue or less kaiju action than previous films and Ultimate Championship Fighting 8 winner Don Frye is pretty amusing. The martial-arts scenes beat the cheesy dramatics any day. The Gigan redesign (by famous Japanese pop artist Yasushi Nirasawa ) is a thing of beauty. The only drawback I can think of is how brief each Kaiju's scene is due to the number of them that appear. For awhile it was my 3 year-old nephew's favorite film and he has no attention span whatsoever.

@Down_Shift: My personal fave is vs Destroyah, but unless you can find a decent fansub the domestic release is pretty bad with awful dubbing (no subs) and the screen cropped all to hell. Other than that the entire 200x series is pretty easy to get into but they all vary to the point where your enjoyment would depend on your preferences. GMK is a pretty serious film with a lot of asian mysticism and a Godzilla who serves as a demon whose purpose is to remind the people of modern Japan of the sins commited by their Imperial ancestors. The Mechagodzilla films have an updated Mechagodzilla who is obviously heavily inspired by the EVAs from Neon Genesis Evangelion and Final Wars is all about action and self-deprecating humor.

Other than Godzilla you may also want to check-out the Heisei Gamera trilogy done by the director and sfx head who did GMK immediately after. They're great. I'd avise you to watch them in order though because the quality of the special effects improves incrementally by each film to the point where the 3rd installment makes the 1st look cheesy by comparison.

can I ask a question? How can someone be a fan of something for 20 years, and not be care about how its treated on celluloid. How can you invest hundreds of dollars on toys, Spend hundreds of hour on websites dedicated to it, but when it comes to the movie you don't demand quality? What if you spent $200.00 for MP prime and it fell apart the minute you took it out of the box? Why is Spiderman treated like the Holy Grail? It has nothing to do with how popular one series is over another It has to do with Director and Writer Competency. The thing is a lot of the "Fans" don't demand quality. But at least they (fans with low standards)can "enjoy the movie"

Phategod1 wrote:can I ask a question? How can someone be a fan of something for 20 years, and not be care about how its treated on celluloid. How can you invest hundreds of dollars on toys, Spend hundreds of hour on websites dedicated to it, but when it comes to the movie you don't demand quality? What if you spent $200.00 for MP prime and it fell apart the minute you took it out of the box? Why is Spiderman treated like the Holy Grail? It has nothing to do with how popular one series is over another It has to do with Director and Writer Competency. The thing is a lot of the "Fans" don't demand quality. But at least they (fans with low standards)can "enjoy the movie"

Because we haven't had quality in a Transformers show since Beast Wars.

Phategod1 wrote:can I ask a question? How can someone be a fan of something for 20 years, and not be care about how its treated on celluloid. How can you invest hundreds of dollars on toys, Spend hundreds of hour on websites dedicated to it, but when it comes to the movie you don't demand quality? What if you spent $200.00 for MP prime and it fell apart the minute you took it out of the box? Why is Spiderman treated like the Holy Grail? It has nothing to do with how popular one series is over another It has to do with Director and Writer Competency. The thing is a lot of the "Fans" don't demand quality. But at least they (fans with low standards)can "enjoy the movie"

Because we haven't had quality in a Transformers show since Beast Wars.

Phategod1 wrote:can I ask a question? How can someone be a fan of something for 20 years, and not be care about how its treated on celluloid. How can you invest hundreds of dollars on toys, Spend hundreds of hour on websites dedicated to it, but when it comes to the movie you don't demand quality? What if you spent $200.00 for MP prime and it fell apart the minute you took it out of the box? Why is Spiderman treated like the Holy Grail? It has nothing to do with how popular one series is over another It has to do with Director and Writer Competency. The thing is a lot of the "Fans" don't demand quality. But at least they (fans with low standards)can "enjoy the movie"

Because we haven't had quality in a Transformers show since Beast Wars.

True, but it also had a ton of plot-holes (like how Waspinator managed to get to Cybertron), unnecessary retcons, Primal constantly rambling on like a hippie, an angsty teen character 100x more annoying than Cheetor ever was, Botanica, and the fire always looked like opaque plastic. For every 1 thing it did right there were 3 things wrong.

Riotflea wrote:That reminds me... Final Wars inspired me to make a gif of it back then. In 2 ways, i feel it is appropriate for this topic.

True, but it also had a ton of plot-holes (like how Waspinator managed to get to Cybertron), unnecessary retcons, Primal constantly rambling on like a hippie, an angsty teen character 100x more annoying than Cheetor ever was, Botanica, and the fire always looked like opaque plastic. For every 1 thing it did right there were 3 things wrong.

True, but it also had a ton of plot-holes (like how Waspinator managed to get to Cybertron), unnecessary retcons, Primal constantly rambling on like a hippie, an angsty teen character 100x more annoying than Cheetor ever was, Botanica, and the fire always looked like opaque plastic. For every 1 thing it did right there were 3 things wrong.

But it is still was light-years above anything from RiD and after.

Again with the hate for RID, I friggin' loved RID. But yeah, story-wise, Beast Machines was the last quality story we had.

To answer the question at hand, I do care. But, I've also come to realize this is something new. Loosly based on G1 or not, at the end of the day it's not G1, and in some instances thankfully so. The story so far, though mostly hollywood action-wank, actually isn't too bad. I went into this thinking is was gonna be horrible, like a real bad 2 hour toy comercial. That was the part of the shows from pretty much any one of the series' I despised, especially G1 and the Uni-trilogy. Instead of any real story we got conflict which went into introducing new characters that would if not already be on toy shelves. It was genuinely iritating. That's why I'm glad they're taking the X-men movie approach. New looks for characters(albeit some terrible ones), smaller core teams, and a story that will introduce us to the character's struggles that will continue into the inevitable sequels.

Sure, we have yet to see it, but I still think it'll end up being pretty good. But then again, I was expecting an action movie involving TFs, not something like Lord of the Rings. The only way we'd get that is if Peter Jackson got a hold this franchise.

"Consider the knowledge dropped."From ToplessRobot.com:• "Watching Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is marginally better than sh***ing your pants, but it takes a lot longer." Very well put.

Completly off-topic but I hated RiD too. If I wanted anime-crap I'd watch DBZ. Transformers did not, does not need to be Anime-ish and before anyone chimes in and says that G1 was anime. Im talking about those stupid japanimation "wild takes" (sweat Bubbles and other non-sense.)That plus there was too many humans. Beast wars and Beast machines had the right amount of Humes. NONE.

Phategod1 wrote:can I ask a question? How can someone be a fan of something for 20 years, and not be care about how its treated on celluloid. How can you invest hundreds of dollars on toys, Spend hundreds of hour on websites dedicated to it, but when it comes to the movie you don't demand quality? What if you spent $200.00 for MP prime and it fell apart the minute you took it out of the box? Why is Spiderman treated like the Holy Grail? It has nothing to do with how popular one series is over another It has to do with Director and Writer Competency. The thing is a lot of the "Fans" don't demand quality. But at least they (fans with low standards)can "enjoy the movie"

First of all, Spiderman is Spiderman. Prime has changed appearance dozens of times (and had various alt forms). The success of TF is that everything changes to keep it interesting - that is not the success of Spiderman. Also, Spiderman is primarily a literary figure, and TFs are primarily toys. That argument is weak.

Secondly, even fans with high standards, as you say, can enjoy the movie, as Ryan and a few other legacy types have already made clear. In fact, anyone can enjoy the movie - some just refuse to... the same type that seem to think they alone are the "real fans" which is laughable.

A prime example would be the 3-4 guys from Ain't It Cool News forums that joined here around midnight Aug 30 2006 specifically to start a fight with Don Murphy, and then stayed on to complain about anything and everything related to the movie.

What were there names... Phategod, Horseflesh and Riotflea I believe.

Yeah.

As for Riotflea's comments. Blockbuster movies are about money. Take home is what makes a movie franchise ultimately successful - not reviews or fanboys. There is going to be a TF movie because Dreamworks knows it will make a ton of cash, not because they think it will win Best Picture. Godzilla98 was still the most successful Godzilla movie ever - even if you and Toho didn't like it.

Motto:"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."

Wow, this is a fun thread. Excellent debate. Better than that one time in my Literture Through Films class, where me and another guy would go "This movie sucked!" "No, it rawked!" "No, it sucked!" "No, it rawked, but that movie DID suck." "Yeah!"

Good show, to everyone on both sides of the fence. Keep up the good debatin'!

(Yeah, I know it's impossible to win, but damn if I won't make a stand!"

Phategod1 wrote:can I ask a question? How can someone be a fan of something for 20 years, and not be care about how its treated on celluloid. How can you invest hundreds of dollars on toys, Spend hundreds of hour on websites dedicated to it, but when it comes to the movie you don't demand quality? What if you spent $200.00 for MP prime and it fell apart the minute you took it out of the box? Why is Spiderman treated like the Holy Grail? It has nothing to do with how popular one series is over another It has to do with Director and Writer Competency. The thing is a lot of the "Fans" don't demand quality. But at least they (fans with low standards)can "enjoy the movie"

Ah, so now that they've been backed into a corner, the haters are pulling out the "you're not a real fan if you like the movie" statement.

Who the hell are you to judge my standards?

And as for Spider-man. Before that movie hit, the fans were calling it the worst insult to Spidey ever, for two little reasons: organic web shooters, and the Green Goblin design. Now look at what they say.

G1 was nothing more than Decepticons looking for energon and Autobots trying to stop them. Had the standard cartoon story lines of that time thrown in. Anything else is just rose colored nostalgia that we've all thrown in. I do it to, the difference is that I can let it go and see it for what it really was.

The only possible deviation from the original source this movie has is the Decepticons. They don't get much story development however, so we don't really know. We'll have to wait for the sequel.

This movie is the future of Transformers, weather the haters like it or not. All they can do is accept it and move on, or get out of dodge. This movie will do good, and there will be sequels.

Phategod1 wrote:Completly off-topic but I hated RiD too. If I wanted anime-crap I'd watch DBZ. Transformers did not, does not need to be Anime-ish and before anyone chimes in and says that G1 was anime. Im talking about those stupid japanimation "wild takes" (sweat Bubbles and other non-sense.)That plus there was too many humans. Beast wars and Beast machines had the right amount of Humes. NONE.

G1 wasnt anime. It was created here in the states. In order for it to be anime it has to be created and aired in japan first. Like DBZ, Gundam, and Robotech.

Phategod1 wrote:can I ask a question? How can someone be a fan of something for 20 years, and not be care about how its treated on celluloid. How can you invest hundreds of dollars on toys, Spend hundreds of hour on websites dedicated to it, but when it comes to the movie you don't demand quality? What if you spent $200.00 for MP prime and it fell apart the minute you took it out of the box? Why is Spiderman treated like the Holy Grail? It has nothing to do with how popular one series is over another It has to do with Director and Writer Competency. The thing is a lot of the "Fans" don't demand quality. But at least they (fans with low standards)can "enjoy the movie"

Because we haven't had quality in a Transformers show since Beast Wars.

We fans have been demanding quality. The movie assholes just didnt listen. Remember when they saide that Megatrons head would be changed because the fans were bitching? Well did it happen? No. They dont care about the fans. As long as the movie will make them money they dont give a rats ass about what the die hard fans think. If Bay wasnt directing it might have bee a diffrent story but since they got that idiot to direct he only wants to see what he wants on screen. Prime example: Pearl Harbor. That movie sucked but made money.