Category Archives: Digital Media

Innovation and Inspiration can be sought, and found, in some of the most surprising places. Of course, it will come as no surprise to regular readers of the ‘Capital I’ Innovation Series, that I am a firm believe in the necessity of innovation in all things, be it in art, technology, science, education or social sciences.

I shall be ever grateful to my Kiwi connection, Steve Gray, for introducing me to ‘Songs From the Inside,’ a music therapy programme in New Zealand, which brings established musicians into the Rimutaka and Arohata correction facilities to teach songwriting to prisoners. Though music therapy is used in correctional facilities worldwide, this is the first time established musicians have been brought in and the program recorded for public viewing.

In the thirteenth episode, an hour-long special, songs that the prisoners wrote, sang and recorded will be revealed, with an album released and available to download the next day, June 11.

I have had the immense pleasure to interview the programme director, Julian Arahanga; participating musician, Ruia Aperahama; and the instigator of the Innovative program, Evan Rhys Davies. Speaking with each of them was both inspiring, enticing, exciting and deeply moving – I hope you find following our conversations as interesting as did having them.

Congratulations on the project! I just think it’s magnificent work. I can only imagine how proud you must be of it.

Thank you very much. I do feel proud. I always knew that we were doing something good but it turned out quite a bit bigger than what I’d originally envisioned.

I knew there was the possibility of it being a breakthrough type of show… Everybody is always very interested in what goes on inside prisons, and with the quality of the musicians that we had… I always thought that if we were able to weave those elements together we were going to come out with something powerful.

And you did! One of the things that shines through, along with the quality of the musicians artistry, is their quality as human beings. The level to which they gave of themselves so generously to the project is extremely beautiful.

That was part of selection criteria that we had. We didn’t want to select pop stars per say. The people that we needed, to make show successful, were people who had a social consciousness and who had lived a little; they had some life experiences, and a world view of their own to fall back on.

Maisey Rika

From the very early stages, as a group, we talked about the type of things we were setting out to do. Everybody knew we were trying to get a little deeper than just the surface. To do that we needed to reach out and make ourselves vulnerable in order to achieve our goal of getting these people [the prisoners] to open up.

If you were to look at the programme as a journey, was there a place along that road you hoped the prisoners involved would reach?

I think there were a few goals. The first was hinged around the music. With the musicians our goal was to help these people [the prisoners] create and produce music that only they, as individuals, could have made… songs that were written from the heart.

Secondly, it was about showing the human side of the prisoners… Showing that they’re not just stats and numbers but actual human beings who are very much like you and I. They have their ups and downs, but various circumstances and their actions have landed them in this place.

Another goal we had for the project was to show people at home, even if just subconsciously, how to write their own songs. I hope that from watching the show people will be able to understand what a hook line is, what a bridge is and why you need one… we gave them the basic tools to be able to create their own song. Anyone can write a song and everybody has got at least one song in them.

It’s a whole new take on ‘The Voice’ or ‘The Idol’ franchises. It’s the ultimate reality in reality television. You’ve brought clarity to a genre that has, at best, been muddied, and that is to be applauded.

I think that reality TV can be a different experience to how we perceive it currently.

I can only assume that there were many issues you had to deal with due to the fact that your subjects were incarcerated… even such mundane things as having a shortened filming period. Did these issues necessitate you having to come up with different ways of approaching the production?

Certainly. Every production has its challenges. We just adapted to the playing field that was given to us. If we were filming soldiers in Iraq, we’d be dealing with a whole lot of circumstances there. You’ve just got to evaluate the situation and find the solutions to the parameters you’re given.

The shortened day was a big issue… we only had three or four hours with our students, so that was when the cameras pretty much didn’t stop rolling. We were constantly evaluating what worked and what didn’t… because if one of the cameras hadn’t got the shot when it happened then we didn’t have it… it’s not in the show.

The biggest challenge, which was at the heart of the show, was to make a connection with, and gain the trust of, our students. That was the true challenge because without that connection and trust we really wouldn’t have had a show.

Was there a danger of the artists connecting too much, or being overwhelmed and drowning in the prisoners’ stories and personal dramas? And, if so, how did you help them to protect themselves from those dangers?

Think that danger was very present. So, we had mentors… we had Jim Moriarty who has worked in prisons for 25 years. He has taught male and female prisoners drama – a situation where you really try to evoke emotions, such as anger – and has worked with both medium and high risk offenders.

During the process of making ‘Songs From the Inside,’ if we felt that anyone was feeling under pressure and in need of assistance the mentors were there for them.

As Maori people we’re very giving and open. We treated the people that we dealt with in prison like they were our cousin, our brother, uncle, auntie or sister. Once we had met them and begun the process, the barrier perception: “They’re prisoners and they’re bad,” was pretty much nonexistent.

So many of the prisoners are, at least to a certain extent, Maori. Do you think that was important in being able to achieve the level of connection you did? I ask that because I wonder if the programme could be replicated in another part of the world, where that brother/cousin connection is not so strong – if there at all.

I have no doubt that the process can be replicated in any country where there are prisons and people who love music.

I think that, in trying to connect with them, it helped us immensely that our students were Maori. But I’m hopeful that next year we’ll do another series of ‘Songs From the Inside’ at a different location in New Zealand where we will have a more mixed representation of ethnicities.

I think by the end of that process we will have proven the theory that we have developed: that the process of song writing, and drawing out songs from people’s hearts, can work with anybody in any scenario.

It’s a very inspirational, Innovative process. Were you looking to make a change within the correction system when you set out to do the project.

Well, you aim high with everything that you do.

I didn’t know how we might be able to affect the Corrections Department in New Zealand but I think that, by getting them involved in the process, we’ve already made some form of change.

Have you had feedback from the correction system?

The Corrections Department is 100% behind the project, and they’re already behind the second series. Their CEO has even used the project in his speeches to prison managers nationally.

Frankly, I’d like to see music departments in every prison in New Zealand. Long term, on a national scale, I’d like to see music departments, instruments and tutors going in, using song writing, poetry, writing and music.

I don’t like to call it rehabilitation or reforming people. I’m not a criminal psychologist; I don’t know how you determine whether someone is rehabilitated or reformed. What I do know is that life is about steps and this is one step.

The programme and the people involved had been given a commendation from the New Zealand Parliament, which must be quite marvellous to receive. Did receiving it come as a surprise to you?

It was a surprise… a very nice surprise that was very welcomed by everybody in the whole production, along with our supporters and our families.

Along with that, the programme is being talked about a lot internationally. That too may have been something of a surprise as was screened on Maori TV rather than on large, national channel. Though, I understand it is has large, international online viewer numbers – which is where was able to watch the episodes.

I’m currently close to having a team ready in Ireland. We’ve got a prison in Dublin that houses male and female prisoners that is interested in replicating the program. They’ve been able to watch the episodes on the Maori Television website, and they get it. They’re from another culture, and they’ve got different sensibilities, but they get it and they know it would work in Ireland.

We’re also trying to have it made in Australia. We’ve got one correctional facility already on board, we just need to get a female correctional facility and then I think we can make it there next year.

When you look back I imagine that there are all sorts of memories that jump out. What are some of your strongest ones?

If I use a timeline as my guide, I think talking with Evan [Rhys Davies] while he was living in Hong Kong… I told him I’d like to make a television series based loosely around the music programme that he ran in Spring Hill Prison in the Waikato. That’s when I really thought this could work.

There are just so many moments, like the day when I signed all the artists… And they didn’t have to think twice!

I sent them a few paragraphs about what we wanted to do and they all wrote back saying: “Yes, I want to be a part of this!” Obviously, the day we got funded which meant it was happening… The first day of filming, when we all came together.

A super highlight was the day we went into the prison. The amount of emotion in there and the amount of belief, openness, forgiveness and willingness to learn. That was a very special day.

And of course, the recording day, when we recorded everybody’s songs. That’s the big payoff for everybody who buys into and watches the series. When you get to episode 13, you get paid off for your loyalty; I think that’s going be really rewarding for viewers.

I’m told there are some very beautiful songs well worth watching for and I’m very much looking forward to their release.

Prior to speaking to you, I did a small, online search of songs either written about, from, or just after release from prison. Many of them gave me goosebumps. They were very different pieces… be it the Ska of ‘54-46 That’s My Number’ or the rockabilly-blues of ‘Folsom Prison Blues‘ for instance. And yet there was a reality – a truth – that they shared.

Some of the songs are so personal, nobody else could have written them.

It’s not the kind of album that you’re going to be having a party to. It’s the kind you set aside some time in your day to sit down and listen to. You can pull out the booklet, read the lyrics as it’s all going down, and enjoy the whole experience. If you watched the TV series, you can relive the experience in a new way.

When is the album going to be released?

The 13th episode is on the June 10th and the album will be in stores on the 11th. It will be downloadable from iTunes at midnight (NZST).

How exciting! I can hear from you voice that it means a great deal to you. Do you feel that being involved with the programme has changed you in some way?

Definitely. This particular project has shown me the value in people… in lifting others up, trying to enhance their lives and give them opportunity

I’ve been involved with a lot of projects and generally every one changes you in some way, but I feel like this project has given me the clarity to know what I want to do with my life. I’m going to focus a lot more on projects that deal with social issues… Not just for Maori people but for all people, particularly in New Zealand, but on a global scale as well.

It’s a great culmination and conjoining of both artistry and activism; it’s Innovative and Inspiring!

You know what the good thing is? We’re ‘good’ from both sides!

The Corrections [department] love us. We’re the best thing that’s happened to them in years because, lets face it, they don’t get a lot of good press. Even the Sensible Sentencing Trust haven’t slammed the project, and they’re about as right-wing as you can get in terms of recognised groups with a media voice.

Maybe it’s because the project is so sincere and honest. It’s people talking about their lives and trying to help one another. And it goes both ways – the musicians get an amazing life experience; they’re being challenged in all kinds of ways, so everybody is growing together.

PART TWO: EVAN RHYS DAVIES – INSTIGATOR

Songs From the Inside seems a perfect synthesis of your talents as a teacher, musician and activist.

First and foremost I’m interested in people. My motivation comes from believing that people have an intrinsic value and we need to find a way to let people know that. For me that connection with, and working with, the prisoners was an extension of what I feel passionately about: connecting with people and helping them find their place in the world.

‘Songs From the Inside’ is based on a programme you devised earlier. What was your impetus for beginning it; was there something that happened, something you saw or heard that made you think this was a necessary thing to do?

I got a call from a friend saying: “We’ve got this pilot programme at Spring Hill prison… Would you be interested in teaching creative writing and maybe branch into song writing? You can pretty well write the programme. What do you think?” I thought: Yes!

In the first class there were about 20 guys and a lot of them had issues with writing in general. In the second there were eight to ten guys and they just rocked up to class; there’d be eight guys and three guitars. They’d heard the words ‘song writing’ and missed the creative writing part, so straight away I was getting these guys offering me songs.

The first song one of the guys played had the lyrics “It’s your birthday today and I’m not with you.” It was to his two year old daughter, and I just thought, what a start to a song! No one else is going to come up with a lyric like that.

In the first class we mainly focused on developing technical skills the guys could take away to use to express themselves better. We focused the second class more on song writing. One guy, who had barely said a word for seven weeks agreed to share a song one day. When he did, he sounded like Jack Johnson; he had an amazing voice and it was a beautiful song about saying sorry. That’s when I knew we had to record the songs.

At first the idea raised a few eyebrows, but eventually the officials gave me clearance for my gear. I took in an engineer and we did it. We called the album “If These Walls Could Speak – Live Recordings from Spring Hill Prison.” One of the guys made it pretty clear when he said, “Next to having kids this is the greatest thing that ever happened to me.”

Then a few months later I got a call from Awa, the Songs From the Inside production company, who said: “We were really moved by the project. We’re not quite sure what format we’re looking at but we’re keen to discuss a television show or film.”

What was your goal for the project? Was it mainly to fill the prisoners’ time and bring them some peace while they’re inside, or was there a view to them being able to use these skills in some way once they get outside?

I know that the ‘Songs From the Inside’ production team would say that they aren’t trying to reduce the crime rate dramatically in New Zealand. The idea is that we’re trying to give people tools and one of the most powerful tools is self-expression.

I’m sure anyone would recognise that if you can express yourself well… if you can understand how to say what you want to say – what you need to say! – then you’re going to be a lot healthier on the inside. You’re a lot likelier to get along with people rather, than getting on top of them, and a lot less likely to get yourself in situations where you express yourself through other [more aggressive] means.

How important has it been to have Julian Arahanga involved?

He is obviously a very talented director but, more importantly, he’s a guy who is more interested in the welfare of the prisoners than making his television show. Of course he is an incredible professional and he’s doing a great job on the TV show, but the way he handles and respects people has really blown me away.

Throughout the programme Maori was being spoken and, as a viewer, I revelled in how beautiful and musical that language is. That must have been interesting to you, due to your love of language and music.

Ruia Aperahama, one of the musicians involved in the project, is an incredible guy… An amazing storyteller, and an incredible linguist as well. He speaks fluent French and Maori as well as English.

One minute he’d be talking to us in English, then get a call from someone in New Caledonia about music and he’d switch to French, then turn to his eight year old son and talk to him in Maori. He’s very interested in language and the musicality of it.

Through the series you see that he’s an incredible orator and communicator. He really engages with language and helps other people to do so as well.

And he’s also incredibly talented in the use of body language.

Very much so. You have to see the last episode… I was crying like a baby because it was just beautiful, there were so many amazing moments.

Ruia came to these occasions with a heart for the people, especially for the Maori, who were inside the prisons. Because, let’s be honest, we need to look at other ways of trying to restore faith and confidence in a lot of disenfranchised Maori people who’ve ended up in prison. That’s not a generalisation – that’s a fact.

PART THREE: RUIA APERAHAMA – ARTIST

‘Songs From the Inside,’ which is such a success, seems to reflect something of New Zealand culture – and certainly of Maori culture – in that it celebrates and honours coming together as a community. Was that part of what led you to get involved in the project, and did that affect how you approached it?

I come from a strong Maori community, from a Marae which has significance in New Zealand history. And, I’ve had some previous experience in prisons, and other places, helping out second chance seekers.

To do a project of this nature… To go in with a teaching angle – sharing, facilitating and creating opportunities – while working with other high-profile artists, for me was a once in a lifetime experience. Though, I hope that we might be able to do something similar again.

We all knew it was going to have some impact on our lives… And not just for us, not just for the inmates but for everyone that worked on the project.

As well as being a gifted musician I understand that you trained as a teacher. The project must have been a quite serendipitous melding of the two paths in your life.

I trained at teachers college in the eighties, so when Julian asked me if I wanted to do this project and described what we would be doing, I jumped at it very quickly.

I was honoured to be asked to go into the prison because most of our [New Zealand] prison population is made up of our [Maori] people. I’ve got relations and family who are either in the system as prison officers, administrators or in some kind of government departments; but they’re also somehow related to and connected to inmates. So, at the end of the day, it was a blessing to be asked to share that environment with our relations.

When you began the project were you able to walk in clean and clear without any assumptions about potential outcomes?

There were some anxieties about the unknown, but that’s part of taking risks and not having much control over the environment we were going into.

We were pretty limited in what we could shoot, so we had to create opportunities, while we were challenged with the concept of having to deliver almost a ‘wonderful world of rehabilitation’ type of programme.

When I say rehabilitation, I mean that there are components for inmates not only to learn about constructing and creating songs, but also to learn how to conduct their life. When you’re composing songs you have to do a lot of collaborating and with collaborating you have to learn to compromise. You have to learn how to share and when to step back. You learn that it’s not just about the artist or the singer; it’s an industry. You’ve got directors producers, engineers, technicians, programme managers… There are a whole lot of people in the industry.

If they wanted, the inmates can explore this further. We’ve just given them a taste of an alternative lifestyle; an option outside of the prison and outside of gangs. Hopefully at the end of the day we gave them an insight, just as the programme gives the New Zealand public an insight into prison culture.

They [the prisoners] have made mistakes – that’s why they’re in prison and paying for their crime. In my opinion, the programme not only shows some different options and alternative lifestyles that inmates might choose outside of prison, but it also helps to humanise the inmate.

I don’t think that after seeing the programme you can generalise any longer about ‘them and us’.

One of my strongest memories from the programme is in the initial episode when you acknowledged everyone within a speaking circle. It seemed to be incredibly important in building the initial bridge between the project makers and the inmates. Is that something that you set out to do consciously or was that just a natural thing that happened?

That’s the opportunity I think that our culture and our customs provide. In our [Maori] culture, through our customs and rituals, the art of oratory speech making has an obligation to create and an opportunity to acknowledge things that should be acknowledged.

For me it reminds us how important our humanness is. It doesn’t matter whether you’re an inmate, a high-profile musician, an administrator, a prison officer or anybody else involved in the justice system. What’s important is to reconnect to being human.

I wanted to challenge the stereotypes of prison inmates and prison guards. I certainly saw not only the opportunity and the willingness to change in the inmates, but I also saw the human side of the prison guards every time we came through security. It is very important to make all people feel valued.

You were able to empower the prisoners to give expression to their feelings, hopes and fears in ways that, perhaps, they’ve never done before – or at least had never been acknowledged for doing so before.

I know many males find it very difficult connecting with, for lack of a better word, their feminine side… To connect to feelings instead of lashing out, using verbal abuse or other forms of violence, like the ones that put them in prison in the first place.

Instead of using those tactics in communicating they had to learn that vulnerability is the first thing to transform your life. We showed that only when you’re vulnerable can you surrender; only when you surrender can you make transformation and change in your life, so you can make different choices. Otherwise you just become part of the high statistics and vicious cycle of reoffending.

Personal Innovation, at a very deep, core level, can touch anyone anywhere.

I agree.

Reaching back to my culture and upbringing on the Marae… It’s not an excuse, but the history and colonisation that happened in our country, for me, has contributed to the large percent of Maori making up our prison population. For me that’s a driving factor to make a change – to make a difference.

As I understand it, a Marae is a sacred meeting place. Is that correct?

It’s the central point of our community. It’s represented by a tribal house, which is the focal point, and would usually be the main ancestor of the region that the Marae stands on. Through that, through the genealogical line of that ancestor, you can connect to members of different communities.

Is it possible to carry a Marae with you? The reason I ask is, it seems to me that in some way you brought the spirit and strength of your Marae with you into the prison.

I understand, and yeah, I agree.

A Marae isn’t just a physical location. Marae is a lifestyle, its how we choose to live our lives and interact with each other.

You bring a deep, palpable level of emotional strength to the programme, which is very inspiring.

Without getting too profound, in our vulnerability and humanness there are lot of exciting things we can share and give one another whether we are inmates, rich, poor, celebrity or not. There are wonderful moments that we can give one another and, certainly in ‘Songs From the Inside,’ there were a lot of those moments that will continue to help me on my journey.

What are your strongest memories of the project?

The strongest memories would be the connecting and the humanness, the breaking down of barriers and stereotypes; and there are a lot of stereotypes out there about prisons.

The hardest time was having to leave every day; going back to our families, to our sense of freedom and the normality in our lives after having spent a day taking on board the things that the guys needed to talk about. We’d have touched on vulnerability and surrendering and that’s not easy for anybody… admitting that you’re wrong or you have things you need to improve on.

Of course if you want to sing from the inside, from your heart and soul, you have to break down all of your stereotypes and your barriers so that you can connect and access what you want to say and how you want to say it. The crafting of that, and helping to develop people’s personality and characters, was a wonderful experience.

If it was difficult to leave at the end of each day’s filming, how was it to leave on the final day? That must have been particularly emotive.

For me, the last episode was reaching a milestone. It was a time to summarise everything: Did we achieve what we set out to do? Did we make an impact and change in somebody’s life somehow?

I was really excited because I could see how hard the inmates had worked and how far they had come! The result of having produced and recorded a song, in allowing and admitting their vulnerabilities – and our vulnerabilities – created a collective strength. The programme and album is, I suppose, a montage of that journey.

To be a part of that, to celebrate people’s successes and the changes that they’ve made, is not only an honour but, to be able to help, them along the journey… that’s an even greater blessing.

Have you been changed by the project?

It’s certainly helped me to have more gratitude about what I have in my life. It helped me reconnect and see how important it is to reach out and be a part of people’s lives… networking, growing and learning something every day.

But, most of all, I think the whole experience is about humanness. It underlined how it is in our humanness that we are all vulnerable, and when we are all being vulnerable we are all equal.

Kim, Julian, Evan and Ruia Skyped from their homes in Sydney and New Zealand.

Songs From the Inside is available for download purchase from iTunes; the CD and DVD can be purchased from Amplifier.

It introduces readers to a select number of pioneers who have broken the mould, led the pack, and moved their own particular mountains in a wide range of fields (including business, technology and travel, engineering and energy, government and social policy, the arts and advertising, media, medicine and more).

It is also available as an innovative, industry-first, Enhanced Edition/ Online Ecosystem, which integrates the latest interactivity, web publishing, cloud, mobile and responsive technologies along with KimmiC’s FlatWorld ‘secret sauce’ and SmartMarks – interactive, intelligent bookmarks.

The life and times of Howard Rheingold encapsulate so much of our technological, online world, that at times it seems simpler to list what he hasn’t done, rather than attempt to encapsulate all that he has. That said, I shall attempt to corral a part of his wild ride into a few sentences.

Howard’s influence and enthusiasm have not slackened, and his writing continues to interest and inform. This writer, teacher, artist and critic was one of the first to understand and explain the potential of an online and engaged community, in his use of San Francisco’s Whole Earth ‘Lectronic Link (WELL) in 1993. [The WELL is one of the oldest, continually running online communities. Founded by Larry Brilliant and Stewart Brand (of Whole Earth Catalog fame), The WELL is currently owned by Salon.com. An early site for the merging of online and counter culture, WELL was a well known meeting place for fans of the Grateful Dead – Deadheads – in the 1980s and 1990s.]

Howard has continued to be a thought leader in the technology, mobile tech in particular, and what effects it will have on society and individuals. Net Smart: How to Thrive Online is Howard’s most recent publication [2012]. Within its pages, he shares the answers he has gleaned to questions he has been asking for many years: “how to use social media intelligently, humanely, and above all mindfully.”

Among many things, ‘Net Smart: How to Thrive Online’ looks to enable and empower us to manage our social media, rather than allow it to manage us. How do you manage your social media?

I manage my attention. At the beginning of each day, I write down in a few words my two or three goals for the day — what I want or need to get accomplished. I put the piece of paper on my desk at the periphery of my vision. When my eye catches sight of the paper, later in the day, I ask myself where my attention is pointing and whether the way I am deploying my attention at the moment is helping me achieve my own goals.

At first, the exercise is nothing more than that — training myself to ask myself what I am paying attention to and comparing it to what I have decided I need to pay attention to. Repetition of this process grows a new habit of being self-aware of how I am using online media — mindfulness or metacognition. The best news about information-attention (infotention) training is that any amount of self-awareness of your media practices at all is far better than no awareness of how media are dragging your mind from place to place.

Will our learning to manage our digital presence enable Innovation in digital technology. And if so, how do you see this evolving?

Doug Engelbart, who invented much of personal computing and digital networks, wrote in his 1962 paper “Augmenting Human Intellect,” that humans are self-reprogramming, self-amplifying innovators through our use of “artifacts, methodology, and training.”

The artifacts (personal computers, communication media) have evolved multi-billion-fold since Engelbart’s time, but the language, methodology, and training — the literacy of using these media by billions of people — is evolving more slowly.

Doug Engelbart (image courtesy of New Media Consortium - nme.org)

With virtual communities, smart mobs, and collective intelligence, we’re seeing the beginning of what people are learning to do with our new technologies. Most important is the lowering of barriers to collective action of all kinds: people will be able to organize and act together with others socially, politically, economically in ways, on scales, and in places never before possible.

Will true mastery of our digital presence require an Innovation of our neural networks be it within the context of dreams, meditation, and or awareness?

Dreams and meditation ARE forms of awareness. Knowing how to read and right is a highly trained synchroniztion of different cognitive capabilities. A similar highly trained synchronization of human minds, media, and social objectives requires a more widespread and sophisticated individual awareness of how minds and media interact. From that awareness, innovations will emerge, just as they did after the literacies of writing, the alphabet, and print spread.

[I’ve recently been asked by several readers to share a piece I initially wrote, for young teen readers, to commemorate and celebrate Safer Internet Day 2012. This piece was written with a view to instigate and enable conversations between young people and adults, parents and children, about the problems and potential solutions surrounding internet safety. Here is that piece, which is not part of the ‘Capital I’ Innovation Interview Series:]

When I was asked to write a piece about the future of internet safety, I realized that I am not generally one to give my opinion – on paper at least. Generally, my job is to interview people and note their opinions. With that in mind, I decided to interview the future me, the me of 2022, ten years hence, and hear her opinions about the then, current, state of security on the net.

An interview with Kim Chandler McDonald, Executive Vice President and Co-Founder of KimmiC, futurist and hyper-technology expert: February 8, 2022 – Sydney, Australia

Kim Chandler McDonald (as she hopes to look in 2022)

What led you to become involved with Safer Internet Day?

I first became involved over ten years ago when I was asked to write a piece about my views on the future of internet safety, a subject I was, and still am very interested in.

Why the interest? Surely now, after ten years, the internet is much safer.

Oh yes, certainly compared to 2012 the difference is quite striking – especially when it comes to personal data. When I first became involved with Safer Internet Day, the internet was a place with few ‘walls’ and almost no one was able to ‘lock the door’ to their data.

Very few people were aware that they owned their own data. Though the data wasn’t owned by social media sites, they did borrow it – often without permission – and they made money from it, either by selling the data itself, or by using it to sell us things.

That borrowing often led to random strangers being able to access information about us which they shouldn’t have been able to get to.

You make it sound a little like stealing.

I wouldn’t go that far, but… well, lets just say that I’m very glad we now have the power, the the responsibility, to guard our ‘property’ – the place we live on the net – and the stuff we have there… our data.

How did that happen?

It started with IdentityTech authentication protocols. Once authentication of parties involved in a communication stream became necessary, and individuals were able to control this process themselves – i.e. you decided who had permission to contact you, be it individuals or companies – the common ‘phishing’ communications (or spam) of the first 10-15 years of this century soon dried up.

It’s funny, because we now look back at that time, without permission based contact and authentication, as anarchy.

Was it really that bad?

In some ways, worse than bad. Lets look at it this way, IdentityTech gave us the power to protect ourselves and our property, so that strangers couldn’t get at it. Lets think of the internet like a house – your online house. Can you imagine someone you don’t know wandering into your house and rummaging through your things? Essentially, that’s what was happening on the internet.

IdentityTech gave you a lock and key to your online house. Now strangers can’t barge into your house and start looking at your pictures and reading your diary. Anyone who wants to do that has to have your permission. Its sounds like a small change but it actually had a very big effect, on individuals and on some very large companies and industries as well.

How did it change things for individuals?

I’m sure there are countless ways, but a few that come to mind are things like the reduction in online predators (people preying on the vulnerable or less experienced), cyber-bullying, identity theft, and the reduced proliferation of violent/hate sites. All these things had a huge effect, not just for individuals, but for communities as well.

A safer internet seemed to spread out and be reflected in safer neighbourhoods, town, cities and countries. I think that’s part and parcel of us deciding to take more responsibility for what we allowed in our lives via the net.

You mentioned changes to companies and industries as a a result of this IdentityTech, can you give me an example?

Well, lets take social media as an example. Certainly there was a time when social media companies would collect and use information about people.

You make it sound like something out of a spy novel.

That’s funny. No, that’s not what I meant. But, it is true that these companies took your data and used it to make money for themselves – they acted like they owned it. I guess we, the public, didn’t know better at that time… and maybe we were a bit lazy too. But this changed as the new digital economy matured. That was already beginning to happen by mid-2012.

One of the consequences of the new digital economy, which IdentityTech enabled, was the realization by individuals – people like you and me – that our data is just that, OUR data. It didn’t belong to anyone else, and it certainly couldn’t be used, or sold, by anyone else without our permission.

Once people realized that they owned their data, that it had value, and that they could have control over who, when and where this information was provided to other parties, things began to change rapidly. Data was acknowledged to be a unit of the connected economy, and though it could be available 24/7, it had to be done so in a universally secure and non-proprietorial way – hyper tech enabled that.

But social media companies are still here, and some are still flourishing.

Of course they are, but now they have to share revenue from any profits they make from using our data.

Okay, I don’t get a personal cheque from them each month, but I am pleased that they have to deposit ‘our’ money into trusts, which have been set up to put money back into the public domain and pay for things like the free broadband connectivity which everyone enjoys today.

The recent loss of an Innovation Giant in the technology world gave me pause. His name, so well known, was often mentioned in this series, in particular in answer to the question, “Who would you give a ‘Capital I’ Innovation Award to?” It also led me to ask, who next – who will step into, or at least grow into Steve Jobs’ shoes? Who is the next creative thinker, the ‘Capital I Innovator’ who thinks out of the box enough to engender real change?

With that question in mind, I chose to share my interview with a young man who leads the way in encouraging entrepreneurship and Innovation from a young age. Instead of teaching students how to pass standardized tests, Kent Healy believes in teaching them to think, to understand, to yearn to learn.

I’m going to begin with one of my ‘foundation’ questions, Kent. If you could give a ‘Capital I’ Innovation Award to anyone, who would that be?

Gosh, that’s a great question. There are so many people we rely on that remain nameless… people that don’t get the PR. [However] people who obviously come to mind immediately are Steve Jobs and Richard Branson.

[Editor’s Note: Steve Jobs was the entrepreneur Richard Branson most admired according to a recent statement by Mr. Branson.]

I say that because I use their products and every time I do, I think: “Duh!” I put my palm on my forehead and [think]: “Why didn’t someone do that earlier?”

How essential has innovation been in your career to date?

Extremely important. At fifteen, I was living in New Zealand… I went to California and saw skim boarding, which I loved and wanted to bring back to New Zealand. Once I returned I went to my surf shop and started looking for a skimboard. I couldn’t find the type that I was looking for anywhere, so I decided to make my own.

Long story short, my brother and I ended up making different models and selling them to local surf shops and internationally. It was a lot of fun. And that opportunity would never have come about if I didn’t ask: “How can I fix this problem?”

Kent Healy (right) with his brother Kyle (left)

When I was about nineteen I finished my first manuscript. I started working with an agent to get a publisher; I met with a lot of them but I just didn’t see eye to eye with what they wanted. I stuck to my guns and my brother and I started a publishing company. We did everything from the cover to the marketing, and I think it turned out to be a better product.

Why do you feel so strongly that collaboration is important?

It goes back to an underlying maxim, ‘one mind is never smarter than two or more combined’. I think that the mind is designed as a collaborative tool and I don’t think humans were made to live in isolation.

"We do better with collaboration and we feed off of different ideas."

The brain is a network filled with synapses taking one idea and trying to link it to another. I think there are many time when ideas are simply inspired… when a connection is made, which never would have been made if somebody else hadn’t thrown down a random idea, completely unrelated, that managed to bridge the two separate ideas.

When you’re thinking, it’s still somewhat linear if you’re on your own. If you’re working with other people the conversation can take many unexpected turns, and that can lead to an immense Innovation.

I think if you’re working on a specific solution isolated research can certainly help. But, if you want to improve something and do the giant Innovation, collaboration is extremely helpful.

That could be a useful example to young people who may feel disconnected, if you will, from the possible positive outcomes their Innovative ideas could develop.

Absolutely. I think that we learn so much from example. It’s easy to write about innovation, but it is a nebulous topic. It’s really hard to say: “This is how you innovate.” I think it’s much easier to say: “Here is something that this person did. Isn’t that great?” That’s what inspires me. Earlier you mentioned New Zealand, are you a natural born Kiwi?

I was born in northern California, San Jose. But, when I was ten, my family moved to New Zealand because they thought it would be a great place to raise kids. So, we packed up and left, not knowing anybody in New Zealand. We lived there for eight years. Those were my teenage years, which were very formative, so New Zealand is a big part of my life.

With that in mind, do you think that location matters… does Innovation have a nation?

Absolutely. In more ways than one. I think there is your immediate environment, be it a coffee shop, library or busy mall. I think all of those things, as energies, are going to influence the way that you think.

Culture is another big thing – how do people in that culture look at Innovation. Some people really encourage it, and some people don’t. I think it’s really important to be around a group of people that encourage it, that will say, “I like where you’re going with that,” and start looking for the benefits before they shoot down the idea. It’s always good to have a devil’s advocate, I agree; but you want more supporters than you do devil’s advocates, if you want innovation to continue to occur.

And then, finally, there are magnet cities that draw in certain like-minded people. Silicon Valley is an example probably everybody [knows]. If you want to do a start-up venture in the tech world, there really are a few places to be that are as buzzing and as influential as that.

Bearing that in mind, could you compare New Zealand to the US as far as being an ‘Innovation nation’?

That’s a really good question. In New Zealand I really admire the propensity that people have to come up with a solution. If it’s a problem… fix it! That means, go into your shed, pick up your tools and your tape, and try to figure it out by yourself before going to the store and buying a replacement. I was so young when I was there that I didn’t really notice the difference, but I do now.

I pretty much grew up in a shed. My neighbor had a massive shed full of tools and we would spend every day building something and improving it again and again and again. I developed the attitude, “where there’s a will, there’s a way,” which was very important.

I do think it’s a little different when it comes to business, though. I would say that business innovation is definitely more supported in The United States than it is in New Zealand, where there is still is a little bit of that ‘tall poppy’ syndrome. However, I think the global culture is starting to stamp that out a little.

For entrepreneurship I’ve found the States to have a very supportive community, which is now moving on-line, so it doesn’t really matter where you are.

Do you think there is such a thing as a ‘natural entrepreneur’?

I think that people vary so much in their natural abilities and their tendencies that it’s hard to generalize. [But] I’ve met some people who, to me, are absolutely born entrepreneurs; they just look at the world from a different perspective.

I’m pretty divided on the issue, but if I had to give a short answer I would say, as human beings we do have a propensity, a drive and an interest, to innovate. I think it becomes suppressed largely because of our environment. That includes culture, role models, authority and laws… all those things make a difference. As Pablo Picasso once said, “All children are born artists, the challenges is remaining one when we get older.”

That’s a lovely quote, and leads me quite tidily to ask you about your interactive eBook, ‘Maxims for Mavericks’. How did that inspirational bolt strike you? Maxims for Mavericks came about when I was really [getting] into quotations and thought: “Gosh, these are great; there is so much intelligence, and so much wisdom in so few words!” I started collecting quotes I thought were great, and then had the idea of writing a short reflection on each quotation.

What makes quotes unique is that they really express peoples’ personal belief systems. Once you understand, or adopt, a new belief system, everything about yourself and your life begins to change… your perception of yourself, your perception of the world around you.

How did the title come about?

The more research I did, the [more the word] ‘maxim’ came into my head, and then I always loved the concept of being a maverick. I married the two together and I thought: “Wow, that makes perfect sense.”

In the 1800s, Samuel Augustus Maverick went to Texas and became known for not branding his cattle. He was more interested in keeping track of the land he owned than the livestock on it… unbranded cattle, then, were called ‘Maverick’s.’ The name came to mean anyone who didn’t bear another’s brand. – New York Times

I put a few together and published a little book, in physical form, that I would give away when I would speak. I started getting messages and e-mails from people around the world who really liked it, and I thought: “I need to make this more available. Now that we are in a digital age, let’s start applying this maverick mentality.” And that’s what I did.

I created an eBook to give away. I asked myself: “How can I reach more people efficiently and cost-effectively?” The obvious solution was to create it in digital form.

Would you then equate mavericks and innovators as being the same thing?

I definitely think there’s a huge amount of overlap.

I think a maverick is somebody who is simply original, [someone] who embraces who they are and is willing to take risks by pursuing something they think is important. They question the status quo, conventional thought, old systems and tired assumptions. That’s what mavericks do as people, and that leads to innovation.

Do you think your education assisted your savoring the maverick within you?

For me the division between education and action started at such an early age. It’s hard to say if education actually changed me. What I will say is that starting businesses at an early age changed the way that I looked at education and, therefore, it really changed my relationship with education.

If I were relying on my education to be innovative, to be a successful business person, I think I would fail miserably. I don’t think that school inspires or encourages the innovative entrepreneurial mentality.

So where would you direct young people to go to get inspiration or to find a path they can follow?

First of all, the earlier [they start] the better. Just like you develop physical habits, you can develop mental habits. Start young.

It pains me so much to hear a student say: “Well, I’m a student now, so I’m just going to enjoy. When I’m out of school then I’ll do ‘this’.” I call that the ‘defective student’ label.

If you’re a student that means that you’re trying to educate yourself, in some way, shape or form. And that’s exactly what you should be doing. Join groups! I think that business groups are fantastic to organize or be part of.

They have something called NFTE here in the States, the Network For Teaching Entrepreneurship, and it’s fantastic. Its an entrepreneurial program for people to get involved, to start thinking differently, at a young age. You can turn to books and you can also turn to places like Youtube… Yes, believe or not, there’s more than just animals doing silly things on there. There’s unbelievable videos that you can learn from: speeches, keynotes and so forth.

There is mentorship as well. Reach out to people and say: “Would you mind spending some time with me?” Once a week, twice a week, once a month. [Youth} can be a huge benefit here, you can use it to your advantage and get to people who wouldn’t normally do it, or who would normally charge a fee.

You’re proud of the relationships you’ve formed with world leaders in the field of personal development. Who are some of these world leaders and why did you seek them out in particular?

Just to name a few Jack Canfield, Mark Victor Hansen, and Richard Carlson. Those were the three most important. Of course I’ve met a lot of others along the way that I have exchanged e-mails and conversations with, but in terms of personal relationship, I’d identify those three. It started with each of then when I [began] writing my first book. When I started ‘Cool Stuff They Should Teach in School’ I was consumed [by] self-help and non-fiction. I would do anything: read it, listen to it, go to it, talk to somebody who embodied it.

It started to rub off on me and eventually I wanted to think bigger and bigger and bigger. So I asked myself: “Who is the leader in this field of self publishing?” Jack Canfield came to mind as co-creator of the ‘Chicken Soup for the Soul’ series, of course. I thought it would be excellent to meet this person, so that’s exactly what I did.

I put him on my vision board, sought him out and told him a little bit about my idea. That was pretty terrifying as a teenager, but I caught his attention. I asked for his support, he agreed and we stayed in touch. The same thing happened with Mark Victor Hansen, who is also the co-creator of the ‘Chicken Soup for the Soul’ series, and Richard Carlson, who was the creator of the ‘Don’t Sweat the Small Stuff’ series.

Unfortunately [Richard] passed away, but he was unbelievable as a role model in terms of showing me a bright, supportive, constructive side of the world.

Of course I’m going to have to ask, what is the ‘Cool Stuff They Should Teach in School’?

Good question. The book (since you’re referencing that) covers everything from basic ideas about psychology, motivation, attitude and goal setting to more practical skills such as money management and communication. Those were all topics I thought were extremely important that should be taught.

Ironically it’s become required reading in schools. I never thought that was possible, but a lot of teachers have really embraced it. They order it every year and have classes based on it. In your eBook, you talk about the importance of unlearning. So, I’m wondering, what is the most unimportant peace of information you’ve unlearned.

Ironically, it’s that you don’t have to have a college degree to be educated. You don’t have to have college degree to do something important and to make a positive impact.

Growing up everything was about: “Get good grades and then work your way towards an excellent job.” That’s what I was told and I had to unlearn that.

I think unlearning that has been unbelievably liberating. It took a lot of pressure off. [But] the problem with doing that is you become very critical about what you are learning. Which is both good and bad. I now question everything. If it doesn’t make sense to me and I really can’t come up with a reason to do it, I’ll usually put up some sort of a fight until I can understand why it’s worth my time.

Is it safe to say that yours will be a never ending study of life?

Absolutely. I subscribe to the maxim that says: “Investment in self yields the greatest return.” I think you’d be silly to stop your education, because that’s the only edge you have. Without it, it’s really hard to stay inspired and be creative.

The Uncommon Life Blog

You can’t associate creativity and innovation with stagnation, it just doesn’t work. You need to be in motion at all times.

The minute you stop doing something I think you really put yourself in a very risky situation, both in your physical and mental health. This is why studies have shown that a lot of people end up dying within two to five years after their retirement. You know, they fail to engage in something.

With innovation that is absolutely true. You have to not only consciously try to be creative and innovative, but you have to seek it out, you have to look for it… you have to actually want to learn.

Barry Flaherty has worn many hats on his route to his current incarnation as a digital media expert. These include being an International Business Development Director, and a technology early adopter for over 15 years, driving global innovative solutions in marketing, digital media, and mobile technology. His client experience has covered Vodafone, Cisco, Intel, Microsoft, Nike, and the Qatar Foundation to name but a few.

An avid blogger and trend spotter, Barry is currently engaged on projects with a variety of clients ranging from start-ups, fast growing organisations, corporates, broadcasters and digital media agencies in the UK, Europe and the Middle East. Added to this, he sits on the Advisory Boards of several high profile digital media networks.

Currently working with Mediaventura in London on M&A advisory work and fund raising for fast growing digital businesses, Barry is also crowd sourcing digital case studies for inclusion in a new version of ‘Understanding Digital Marketing’.

Barry, you’ve been searching for, and driving forward Innovation for many years. How do you define Innovation?

Innovation to me is like a Rubix Cube. Multi-faceted, full of different colours and almost impossible to crack UNLESS you happen to be very good; be that as an individual or an organisation. I suppose a good place to start is understanding the essence and meaning of Innovation.

A convenient definition, from an organisational perspective, is given by Luecke and Katz (2003):

“Innovation is generally understood as the successful introduction of a better thing or method. [It] is the embodiment, combination, or synthesis of knowledge in original, relevant, valued new products, processes, or services.”

Do you think entrepreneurs are born or ‘made’?

Good question. Depends what life throws at you. There’s probably ten or twenty different ways in which entrepreneurs are created.

There’s a great quote from Twelfth Night:

“some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.”

Many entrepreneurs are born out of many years of relentless effort – pushing themselves, and those around them, to the limit – and of course, having many failed business ventures before they finally become successful.

Right now trying to raise money from the market is like a trip to the dentist for root canal surgery. So if you have got a rich mummy or daddy or family member who can set you up on the path, well…

Many of today’s so called Entrepreneurs have had a helping hand in life. Sometimes this comes from billionaire families or trust funds, which have allowed many to start with the necessary ‘oxygen’ and capital to make turning their ideas into reality that much easier. Stelios Haji-Ioannou from Easyjet is an example of this. Kerry Packer, the Australian media mogul, created an opening for his son James to flourish and take over the reins of their Empire.

Kerry and James Packer

We need entrepreneurs in society. They provide inspiration. They provide case studies for the plethora of Business Schools and MBA courses, and keep income rolling into the country. Innovation fosters dreams. The end product is a conveyor belt of ‘leaders of tomorrow’ entering the workplace armed with MBA’s and case studies in their heads from some of the world’s greatest innovators and entrepreneurs.

Speaking of a helping hand, you are about to become a father for the first time. What do you want to pass on to your child?

Common sense. This is where someone like Paul McCartney is a good example. He’s got hundreds of millions in the bank from years of royalties, and he still sent his kids to a normal school. Its about arming your kids for life.

Do you see a difference between ‘little i’ and ‘Capital I’ Innovation?

Innovation is an important topic in the study of most things in society, be that economics, business, entrepreneurship, design, technology, sociology or engineering.

Innovation is, unfortunately, one of those words that you hear lots but is rarely practiced. I’ve attended many Conferences at the European Union, and within industry, on the topic of Innovation; and there seems to be a whole industry of people hell-bent on commentating on Innovation and policy making to foster it. But, these are not the true innovators. I hardly think a policy ‘wonk’ in Brussels is going to become the next Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg.

Once innovation occurs, innovations may be spread from the innovator to other individuals and groups. This life cycle of innovations can be described using the ‘s-curve’ or diffusion curve. The s-curve maps growth of revenue or productivity against time.

In the early stage of a particular innovation, growth is relatively slow as the new product establishes itself. At some point customers begin to demand [it] and the product growth increases more rapidly. I think it would be fair to say that lots of little i’s make up one big I.

It could be argued that innovation is one continuous journey rather than the final destination. Innovation is fluid, continuous and ever evolving. It’s a shame the big CAPITAL I seems to be the one that gets most column inches as there are innovative discoveries and successes happening on this planet on an almost daily basis.

Do you think innovation is an overused term?

I think it would be fair to say that it’s a term that is timeless but slightly jaded around the edges. There are a lot of so called ‘ambulance chasers’ who like to pontificate and tell the world they are innovative without really demonstrating or executing this.

We like Innovation. It’s like a warm blanket on a cold night. We are proud of it and we like to tell the world how innovative we are.

So what do we like to do?

That’s right! We create awards. Here is a recent example of one from the www.d-media.co.uk network in the UK. We have become good at giving ourselves a good pat on the back for just about everything. There seem to be more award ceremonies, for just about everything, than there are Companies!

Enter the IET Innovation Awards to raise the profile of your invention amongst those leading the way in science, engineering and technology innovation. Typical Award categories include:

Asset Management

Built Environment

Electronics

Embedded and Critical Systems

Emerging Technologies

Healthcare Technologies

Information Technology

Measurement in Action

Power / Energy

Product Design

Software in Design

Sustainability

Team

Telecommunications

Transport

How essential has innovation been in your career to date; and how important do you envisage it being going forward?

I’ve leant towards creative industries and this has led me to come into contact with many entrepreneurs and creative minds that have built successful businesses from scratch, or created true measurable value for the Organisations they work for.

In the organisational context, innovation may be linked to positive changes in efficiency, productivity, quality, competitive positioning, market share, etc. All of which can be affected positively by innovative forces. All organisations can innovate, including, for example, hospitals, universities and local governments. Some will flourish under its influence. Other will die. It’s survival of the fittest.

In my digital world, the ‘King of the Jungle’ one minute can be obsolete the next. Take MySpace or Friends Re-United for example. They were top for a matter of months, then swept aside by the likes of Facebook and Google. And even they have reached saturation now in many mature markets. They need growth in developing countries to stay on target for their target of 1 billion users and their over justified and bloated valuations.

On a wider level, car companies and manufacturing industries are making way for knowledge economies, knowledge clusters and an increasingly mobile workforce. The travel industry has been taken over by online offerings, disinter-mediation is ripping through more industries and supply chains than ever before.

Going forward, I want to stay involved with working at the sharp end of Innovation, thus working in Mergers and Acquisitions with fast growing organizations. That way, I stay close to the capital markets and also get to court the Innovators and entrepreneurs, feeding my desire for knowledge and having a pulse on the future.

As an extremely avid fan, Barry also stays close to Celtic FC.

You can read Barry’s piece on Celtic and New Media in the August edition of CQ Magazine (pgs 38 & 39) here

What do you think is imperative to allow ‘Capital I’ Innovation to occur?

That is of course the million dollar conundrum. Innovation isn’t always welcome in practice, in my experience. I’ve spent/wasted years of my life delivering solutions that promise change and progress and, let me tell you, they’re not always welcome!

Governments talk about creating innovation, Science & Technology parks and Innovation parks and, to their credit, most governments in the Western world have built these. They’ve created jobs and been responsible for breakthroughs in medicine, technology, life sciences and so on. The UK has clusters of Innovation Centres and Science Parks, and the European Union is one big Innovation hub, mostly because it sits on budgets of billions to throw at ‘so called’ Innovation projects.

Innovation with a CAPITAL I without cash will never materialise – governments realise this. Expensive public sector modernisation projects, transport infrastructure, new schools and educational institutions need private enterprise and money to allow this.

In the digital world, places like Silicon Valley play a crucial role in funding innovation, leading to new frameworks including user centric design, interoperability, co-operation, portfolio management and processes to shorten product development cycles.

I was fortunate enough to spend some time in the Middle East working with the Qatar Foundation and other projects such as the Qatar Science Technology Park, Internet City in Dubai and AppsArabia in Abu Dhabi. They can attract the world’s brightest minds and talent as they can afford the money to prise the talent out of countries like the UK, Australia, USA and other western economies. Innovation tends to follow the talent and the capital, be that financial or human.

Private and public sector partnerships are crucial as not everybody has 100 years of liquefied natural gas (LNG) or oil sitting under their shores. We need only to look at Ireland, Iceland, Portugal, Sudan, and Greece as examples of countries who do not have the manpower, innovation, cash or energy resources of the BRIC economies or a region like the Middle East.

On the upside are the new business models, which predominantly aren’t reliant on huge cost bases – you can set up a business today for ‘$17 online and in only 5 minutes’ – you don’t have to have an office, a factory, or lots of staff.

Does location matters?

Of course it matters. Being born into the right country at the right time is tantamount to winning the lottery.

That said, Innovation is universal. It’s being created, dreamt about and implemented in classrooms in China, the boardrooms of Brazil, universities in India and in R&D labs and Universities the world over. Innovation travels. It has a passport; it speaks many languages and knows no bounds.

Like all journeys in life, it’s not always plain sailing for Innovation. There are barriers, obstacles and challenges, yet with the right network, funding, energy and drive, Innovation does eventually prevail.

The internet has created a level playing field where SME’s and individuals can go toe to toe with large organisations. People have a direct line to brands, governments and people in authority. It’s power to the people, and the people holding the levers of power and control had better start listening.

The recent overthrow of governments in the Middle East and Asia demonstrated this. In this ever connected world, there is no hiding place.

A man not backwards in coming forward with his opinion, there is likely no hiding place from Barry Flaherty either.