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Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

The above link is tells the story of how the woman's Cycling competition was won (gold medal) by a transgender woman, who didn't even have the common decency to cut his dick off before competing (2). The bronze medalist complained that it wasn't fair. Later she tweeted a retraction and an apology, and vowed to try to have the rules changed.

----
-opinion-
So this is so sweet. This is like when you dunk the Oreo in milk, and your mouth is already watering, because you just know it is going to be awesome. So my favorite part, is that it is a fat dude standing between to svelte women. Having a bit of internet troubles, but suffice it to say, it really doesn't appear that this person could have competed with the men. Why is this so good you ask? Because this will become the new norm. I can't wait till a real male athlete who can't quite break into the top 10 of his own gender, decide that he can get all sorts of money and attention from winning gold and setting records in everything he sets his hand to in the woman's category.

-discussion-
So, several women competitors have viewed it as unfair. The top competitor withdrew in protest. (2) those who spoke against it as being unfair would ask for anonymity, and in the above linked story the bronze winner was made to regret her statements, but clearly didn't change her position.
For the purpose of this debate the question is. How should the competitors protest what they feel is an unfair advantage?
What implications should we draw from the fact that the small population of trans is able to produce Gold medal winning over the much larger population of standard women?
At what point should we start to be concerned about the ability of standard women to compete in woman's sports? (for example, suppose the top 10 in every woman's sport was trans gender. would that be enough a cause for concern)

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

Frankly, i don't care much about sports, so my perspective is tinged by that. it is an interesting ethical question though.

How should the competitors protest what they feel is an unfair advantage?
Be respectful, thoughtful, and articulate. Find likeminded competitors and fans, and make your case before the governing body of the sport.
Boycotting competition is a fair practice.

What implications should we draw from the fact that the small population of trans is able to produce Gold medal winning over the much larger population of standard women?
I think this question presumes too much. This was the first time a transgender woman won this class of competition. She has been competing for some time and not won up until now. Nor have other women's sports been dominated by transgendered athletes. If the top feale athlete had competed, she might have won. It may have been her protest, ironically, that led to this happening.

At what point should we start to be concerned about the ability of standard women to compete women'sn's sports?
If they were consistently winning most events they enter, and if there were enough that this became commonplace, then I think that would cause the IOC to consider whether they were overall hurting women's sport by their inclusion and driving away far more athletes than were being included.

The Vetonews article was very good in examining the situation and the concerns. Your comments lead me to think you didn't actually read through it.

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

The above link is tells the story of how the woman's Cycling competition was won (gold medal) by a transgender woman, who didn't even have the common decency to cut his dick off before competing (2). The bronze medalist complained that it wasn't fair. Later she tweeted a retraction and an apology, and vowed to try to have the rules changed.

----
-opinion-
So this is so sweet. This is like when you dunk the Oreo in milk, and your mouth is already watering, because you just know it is going to be awesome. So my favorite part, is that it is a fat dude standing between to svelte women. Having a bit of internet troubles, but suffice it to say, it really doesn't appear that this person could have competed with the men. Why is this so good you ask? Because this will become the new norm. I can't wait till a real male athlete who can't quite break into the top 10 of his own gender, decide that he can get all sorts of money and attention from winning gold and setting records in everything he sets his hand to in the woman's category.

-discussion-
So, several women competitors have viewed it as unfair. The top competitor withdrew in protest. (2) those who spoke against it as being unfair would ask for anonymity, and in the above linked story the bronze winner was made to regret her statements, but clearly didn't change her position.
For the purpose of this debate the question is. How should the competitors protest what they feel is an unfair advantage?
What implications should we draw from the fact that the small population of trans is able to produce Gold medal winning over the much larger population of standard women?
At what point should we start to be concerned about the ability of standard women to compete in woman's sports? (for example, suppose the top 10 in every woman's sport was trans gender. would that be enough a cause for concern)

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

I think this question presumes too much. This was the first time a transgender woman won this class of competition. She has been competing for some time and not won up until now.

He was competing for a very short amount of time. Transferring from one kind of competition for another, which was commented to be an astonishingly quick change over for someone who was such a novice.
That was in that article you think I didn't read.

Now, this guy did make a valid point that he gets called for an unfair advantage when he wins, but not when he losses.

However on the flip side, there are not a bunch of transgenders competing and failing. As far as I know, this was the only transgender man in the race.
Which means not a very big selection of data to determine, but the fact that this one has won gold after basically just starting the craft, is right in line with all the predictions from allowing this to go on.
I understand the skeptic is going to want more data, but for those of us who already know how this is going to end.. it's hilarious to watch these sports shoot themselves in the foot.

The top competitor dropped out out of protest, but is proven to have well founded reasons. Sure, she may have ultimately won.. but then.. maybe not. As more trans actually enter, it will become more of an issue, and cause more top competitors to drop out.

I just can't wait till this stuff hits tennis. That is going to be awesome. I won't be laughing at it when it comes to the combat based sports, like boxing. I don't enjoy watching men beat women up.

Originally Posted by SIG

The Vetonews article was very good in examining the situation and the concerns. Your comments lead me to think you didn't actually read through it.

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

Originally Posted by Sigfried

At what point should we start to be concerned about the ability of standard women to compete women'sn's sports?
If they were consistently winning most events they enter, and if there were enough that this became commonplace, then I think that would cause the IOC to consider whether they were overall hurting women's sport by their inclusion and driving away far more athletes than were being included.

Then why attempt to separate men and women at all?
(I say attempt because I don't even see how it could be done if a person chooses their own "gender" but the sport in question might see a different "gender" for the same person...)

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

Maybe, that is the ultimate problem.. Maybe we shouldn't be separating men and women. Woman want equality, and these sexist traditions are really just holding us all back.

I think we should ban the unjust segregation of the sexes. (swelling music) No longer should women be treated as anything less than the equals of men. NBA, no more will you deny women application to your league based on sex. WNBA, no longer will you deny men based on their sex. We are all equal here, and the presence, or lack there of a penis should no longer be the deciding factor in what official groups or organizations are formed. Playboy, should immediately introduce it's first male centerfold. Tampons should introduce it's first male spokes-model. Let us, all bask in the glory of equality once and for all!. https://youtu.be/ViPj1Eq-ZGM?t=44

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

Originally Posted by MindTrap028

He was competing for a very short amount of time. Transferring from one kind of competition for another, which was commented to be an astonishingly quick change over for someone who was such a novice.
That was in that article you think I didn't read.

However on the flip side, there are not a bunch of transgenders competing and failing. As far as I know, this was the only transgender man in the race.

A transgendered man is a woman at birth that identifies as a man.

Do you actually know this or is this simply an unsubstantiated claim on your part?

Which means not a very big selection of data to determine, but the fact that this one has won gold after basically just starting the craft, is right in line with all the predictions from allowing this to go on.
I understand the skeptic is going to want more data, but for those of us who already know how this is going to end.. it's hilarious to watch these sports shoot themselves in the foot.

She's been competing for two years in that specific type of cycling, and more in other types of cycling. You are exaggerating here. And who's predictions are you referencing? It really feels like your just making stuff up here.

The top competitor dropped out out of protest, but is proven to have well founded reasons. Sure, she may have ultimately won.. but then.. maybe not. As more trans actually enter, it will become more of an issue, and cause more top competitors to drop out.

Perhaps it will, perhaps it won't, you really don't know, you are just guessing. It's possible, sure. It really depends on how many choose to compete and if they truly have a significant advantage.

Then why attempt to separate men and women at all?
(I say attempt because I don't even see how it could be done if a person chooses their own "gender" but the sport in question might see a different "gender" for the same person...)

The point of women's divisions is to give women a chance to participate in meaningful competition. It is presumed that sports is a good activity to engage in, and that both men and women should participate. And competition is seen as a good way to encourage participation etc... Expereince tells us that in many sports, men hold enough of an advantage that no woman would likely compete sucesfully, or at least, only they very rarest would, as a result women's sports were created and nurtured.

As i said, if the situation became such that non-trans women were hopelessly out-classed by trans women it would be a problem because it would remove the purpose of having women's sporting divisions. If it is just the occasional rare instance, it's not likely to have enough of an impact to discourage women from participating in sports competition.

The point of women's divisions is to give women a chance to participate in meaningful competition.

Agreed. What has changed that this is of much less importance now.
Because some one identifies/feels/however you like to say it a particular gender, doesn't mean their body understands and fallows to that gender as well. So we still have a male body competing against female bodies.
Now I am ok with male/female competition as long as the parties involved are ok with it.

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

Originally Posted by SIG

A transgendered man is a woman at birth that identifies as a man.

Do you actually know this or is this simply an unsubstantiated claim on your part?

That the person in question has a penis, is not unsubstantiated, it was addressed in the article.
The rules were changed recently to no longer require the transition surgery.
As to the competition history, it was noted in at least one of the articles that the woman who withdrew in protest
sighted the quick transition by the (dude with a penis who claims to be a woman) becuase it typically takes a very long time for a woman to make that transition.
Both those (as I wasn't sure which one you were questioning) were addressed in the quotes.

Originally Posted by SIG

She's been competing for two years in that specific type of cycling, and more in other types of cycling. You are exaggerating here. And who's predictions are you referencing? It really feels like your just making stuff up here.

First, it is my prediction, that I have been making for a while. That As they trans enter the sports they will dominate the women.
Yes, the dude with the penis who claims to be a man, has been competing for a few years, but the article is the one that objected on the basis of a novice.
I didn't make that judgment, the competitors and apparently coaches made that assertion.
(if you need further assurance I can go dig up the relevant quotes).

Originally Posted by SIG

Perhaps it will, perhaps it won't, you really don't know, you are just guessing. It's possible, sure. It really depends on how many choose to compete and if they truly have a significant advantage.

Yea, it is a guess on my part. In this case informed by current events. The top competitor dropped out because of ONE trans being allowed to compete.
I do GUESS that more will choose not to compete if 10 join, and especially if it is a transfer from one of the men's competitions. (IE a professional man who couldn't cut it on the mens side).

I am guessing that is going to be a flash point, if and when it happens.

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

Ok
(though how would any man have any idea what being a woman is like?)

So, as you say then, still a man's body, but thinks of him/herself as a woman.
good so far?

I was just correcting Squatch's terminology.

I don't know what it is like to be transgender other than what they say for themselves. I'm a cic straight guy. I can imagine what it's like but I can't say with any experience. The closest I come is as a writer. I can write female characters of course. Whether they are believable or not, I can't say for sure. But there are writers who can portray opposite gender characcters very well, so I think it is possible to understand a man's or woman's perspective to a good degree without being born as one.

As to how a transgender person does it. Well, typically they feel "wrong" when living as a given sex. They find out what it is like to live as the other sex by living that way. Sometimes they find this is much better, though occasionally they discover they don't really feel right either way.

Agreed. What has changed that this is of much less importance now.
Because some one identifies/feels/however you like to say it a particular gender, doesn't mean their body understands and fallows to that gender as well. So we still have a male body competing against female bodies.
Now I am ok with male/female competition as long as the parties involved are ok with it.

Sure, It is an interesting challenge. It's a case where you have competing interests along the same ideal. The ideal is, you want everyone to be able to enjoy meaningful sports competition. The challenge is that transgenedered people don't fit well into our traditional systems. So how do we give them a chance at meaningful competition without significantly removing the same opportunity for others.

I don't understand that there is no issue unless it becomes a "hopeless" situation?

If cis women have a reasonable chance of defeating trasngendered women in competition, then it is still meaningful competition. If they have no realistic chance of beating them, then it is no longer meaningful competition. I used the word hopeless to represent that idea, it might be too strong for what I was after.

That the person in question has a penis, is not unsubstantiated, it was addressed in the article.

That is not a consideration in the term. A Transgendered man is someone who identifies as a man but was born a woman. A Transgendered woman is someone who identifies as a woman but was born a man. What stage of surgery you have had isn't part of the definition of those terms.

The rules were changed recently to no longer require the transition surgery.

Makes sense, having a penis isn't really a significant part of what gives men a physical advantage over women, it tends to be muscle mass, skeletal structure, and hormones.

First, it is my prediction, that I have been making for a while. That As they trans enter the sports they will dominate the women.
Yes, the dude with the penis who claims to be a man, has been competing for a few years, but the article is the one that objected on the basis of a novice.

Well, we aren't really seeing them dominate just yet. That may be because it's just a very rare thing to be a transgendered athlete. I suspect the numbers will never be large enough that we would see them dominating anything.

And BTW: You and I are the dudes with penises claiming to be men.

Yea, it is a guess on my part. In this case, informed by current events. The top competitor dropped out because of ONE trans being allowed to compete.
I do GUESS that more will choose not to compete if 10 join, and especially if it is a transfer from one of the men's competitions. (IE a professional man who couldn't cut it on the mens side).

Do you really imagine that people will undergo a year of testosterone reduction therapy just so they can compete with women instead of men even though they don't think of themselves as a woman? i think you are way off base there.

I am guessing that is going to be a flashpoint, if and when it happens.

It's significant, but it's not even remotely the first and likely not the last by a long stretch. I think this will have a while to play out and that ultimately, it just won't be common enough to chase transgendered women out of women's sports or to chase cis women out of womens sports in significant numbers.

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

Thanks for the response sig.
Yea, I didn't think that depending on the money and fame.. some almost pro man will go through the required steps.. especially if they continue to relax the standards, as they are quite arbitrary right now.
While it isn't the penis that makes them a superior athlete. It certainly is that pesky cromozom that causes the penis and all the other male traites.

And for clarity I was never referring to anything other than a man claiming to be a woman.

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

Originally Posted by Sigfried

I was just correcting Squatch's terminology.

I don't know what it is like to be transgender other than what they say for themselves. I'm a cic straight guy. I can imagine what it's like but I can't say with any experience. The closest I come is as a writer. I can write female characters of course. Whether they are believable or not, I can't say for sure. But there are writers who can portray opposite gender characcters very well, so I think it is possible to understand a man's or woman's perspective to a good degree without being born as one.

As to how a transgender person does it. Well, typically they feel "wrong" when living as a given sex. They find out what it is like to live as the other sex by living that way. Sometimes they find this is much better, though occasionally they discover they don't really feel right either way.

Squatch hasn't posted in this thread? MT maybe?

No worries. I meant it to be a very simple question to give us a foundation to start from. Your answer is far from that but again, no worries.

So a man wants society to "see" him as they would a woman. I get that, but given your response to why men and women are separated in the first place for competition, I still don't see why a man's body should be competing against a woman's body (without both consenting) no matter how they feel about their own "gender".

Having said that, and I will watch if you care to respond, I am dropping out of this thread, so I have no claims I am currently defending in this thread.

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

Originally Posted by Belthazor

Squatch hasn't posted in this thread? MT maybe?

Yep MT, LOL been a while but so used to arguing with Squatch his name slipped out.

So a man wants society to "see" him as they would a woman. I get that, but given your response to why men and women are separated in the first place for competition, I still don't see why a man's body should be competing against a woman's body (without both consenting) no matter how they feel about their own "gender".

Again, you have to think of this through the lens of the goals the Olympics set for themselves. They want sports to be inclusive, they want everyone to have a chance at competition. So, where does someone who is transgender compete? They will generally refuse to compete with men because they would say they are not a man. So, to include them they compete as their chosen gender. But, if that means other women won't compete there is a problem to be worked out.

I'm not a strong advocate one way or another, I just find it an interesting moral quandry for sports ethics because there are competing moral values and competing moral outcomes. As a pragmatist, I'd say you try different approaches and see which ones work out best.

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

Again, you have to think of this through the lens of the goals the Olympics set for themselves. They want sports to be inclusive, they want everyone to have a chance at competition.

I'm assuming you meant "Olympians" not "Olympics", but in this case the answer seems similar.

I don't think many women train for competitive woman's sports with the expectation of competing against men!

Like wise if the Olympic committees wanted male/female competition, we would have already had it. After all, as you state, men's and women's sports separated originally for good reasons.

I see no "inclusion" issues at play here at all. as no one is being denied the opportunity to compete based on orientation. Indeed, (per you) the trans person is the only one that is clearly limiting their choice to compete or not (because they MIGHT be called "not a man" etc)...

Again, you have to think of this through the lens of the goals the Olympics set for themselves. They want sports to be inclusive, they want everyone to have a chance at competition. So, where does someone who is transgender compete? They will generally refuse to compete with men because they would say they are not a man.

1. If they "refuse to compete against their same sex/gender who's fault/problem is that?
2. You are saying only men will ridicule the transgender? I am quite sure they will face similar comments from women as men in this case if they win. A nostalgic view that women are made of sugar and spice and everything nice is cute, but naïve.
3. How would a man winning a female competition in any way be a legitimate win?
4. In what way is this at all fair to the women that want to compete against women?
5. Why would it only matter that a man won if it is a very frequent occurrence rather than once in a while? The woman that would have won the competition wasn't allowed to win?!
6. If the transgender was able to win in the men's league most ridicule would disappear pretty fast. Guys will quit saying "your not a man" when they get their "ass kicked" (in whatever sport). Given that, this sounds like either an emotional appeal or the inability to compete against your same sex.
6a. Yrs ago a woman challenged me to an arm wrestling match. My thoughts were, if I win I will get laughed at for only beating a girl. If I lose, an even bigger laugh because a girl beat me . If she had one though (she didn't) and could beat more men than me, it would have changed everything people were saying. These days a trans boxer (for instance) that went in wearing a bikini and kicking some good male fighters would make big, big $$$'s!
7. How "trans" do they have to be to compete against women? I mean does just wearing a bikini during a bike race count? Do they have to wear women' clothes more often than that? How often qualifies you? What other criteria is there? If all you have to do is "feel" your trans, ANY man would be able to compete against women. There is no reason at all to think this type situation will/would not occur!

So the answer to your question seems obvious.
You compete against your own gender unless all agree to mixed gender competition. How much more basic can this be?
(then I am constantly amazed people get upset a woman might breastfeed her baby and allow it to be "seen"!).

Why is the POSSIBILITY a trans will have their feelings hurt competing against men, so much more important than the feelings of the legitimate female "winner" that would have one, if allowed to compete against her own gender instead of a man?
One is a possibility, the other a given!

I'm not a strong advocate one way or another, I just find it an interesting moral quandry for sports ethics because there are competing moral values and competing moral outcomes. As a pragmatist, I'd say you try different approaches and see which ones work out best.

Funny, you always speak about yourself in terms like this, but your arguments lean a different story IMHO, but I will take you at your word.

Letting the competitors choose to compete against their own gender or mixed gender seems the only practical choice I have heard so far...
Forcing it on the people actually competing, just shows a complete lack of concern for their "feelings"!

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

Originally Posted by Belthazor

1. If they "refuse to compete against their same-sex/gender who's fault/problem is that?

They are willing to compete against their same sex/gender. They and the Olympic committee treat them as the gender they have transitioned to, rather than the one they started with. I get that you don't accepte that concept, but the people involved in the situation do.

2. You are saying only men will ridicule the transgender?

No, I never said anything about ridicule.

3. How would a man winning a female competition in any way be a legitimate win?

Again, you are being obstinant about the choices that both the athletes and the Olympic committee have made. I'll ignore further arguments that fail to take this into account.

6. If the transgender was able to win in the men's league most ridicule would disappear pretty fast. Guys will quit saying "your not a man" when they get their "ass kicked" (in whatever sport). Given that, this sounds like either an emotional appeal or the inability to compete against your same sex.

Ridicule is not at issue here.

6a. Yrs ago a woman challenged me to an arm wrestling match. My thoughts were, if I win I will get laughed at for only beating a girl. If I lose, an even bigger laugh because a girl beat me . If she had one though (she didn't) and could beat more men than me, it would have changed everything people were saying. These days a trans boxer (for instance) that went in wearing a bikini and kicking some good male fighters would make big, big $$$'s!

If they are a trans boxer then they wouldn't compete outside their chosen gender. You don't seem to understand that.

7. How "trans" do they have to be to compete against women? I mean does just wearing a bikini during a bike race count? Do they have to wear women' clothes more often than that? How often qualifies you? What other criteria is there? If all you have to do is "feel" your trans, ANY man would be able to compete against women. There is no reason at all to think this type situation will/would not occur!

If you bothered to read any of the material, they answer that question in some detail. They must be on hormone treatment for a year or more and have a hormone level within the normal range for cis-women athelets.

So the answer to your question seems obvious.
You compete against your own gender unless all agree to mixed gender competition. How much more basic can this be?

Because all the people actually involved in the situation agree that a transgender person is the gender they have transitioned to. Your assertions don't enter into their decision making.

Why is the POSSIBILITY a trans will have their feelings hurt competing against men, so much more important than the feelings of the legitimate female "winner" that would have one, if allowed to compete against her own gender instead of a man?
One is a possibility, the other a given!

Because feelings isn't the root consideration of the athelets or the Olympic commite. Their primary concern is healthy competition and the ability for everyone to participate in it.

Funny, you always speak about yourself in terms like this, but your arguments lean a different story IMHO, but I will take you at your word.

I like to argue topics that are good for arguing on. That doesn't always sync with what I am most passionate about. I am not especially passionate about sports.

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

Originally Posted by SIG

I get that you don't accepte that concept, but the people involved in the situation do.

That isn't really true. The rules that allow it are not created through democracy, it is just done for PC reasons by those in control.
The athletes involved have serious issues with it. So much so the top contender decided to not compete in the sport/event that he trained specifically for and put a lot of time in.
So much so that the #3 who actually competed made clear her dislike of the situation and the rules.

I get that everyone there took part and thus in some way "accepted" the situation. .. but there is an important distinction, because it appears that a significant amount did so because it was forced upon them, not because they were "accepting" of the conditions.

Given the controversial nature of the entire topic within the sports... I don't think it is very reasonable to conclude that, everyone involved is accepting the situation, and those who object are some how one the outside of the main stream.

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

Originally Posted by MindTrap028

That isn't really true. The rules that allow it are not created through democracy, it is just done for PC reasons by those in control.
The athletes involved have serious issues with it. So much so the top contender decided to not compete in the sport/event that he trained specifically for and put a lot of time in.
So much so that the #3 who actually competed made clear her dislike of the situation and the rules.

I get that everyone there took part and thus in some way "accepted" the situation. .. but there is an important distinction, because it appears that a significant amount did so because it was forced upon them, not because they were "accepting" of the conditions.

Given the controversial nature of the entire topic within the sports... I don't think it is very reasonable to conclude that, everyone involved is accepting the situation, and those who object are some how one the outside of the main stream.

Re: Mind Trapped by: "Womans" sports

haha.. don't get too excited. This is going to be a really fun topic to watch play out in real life until it blows up.

By blowing up, I mean women and viewers quitting in mass, as the top spots in woman sports are taken by biological men.

Agreed. When I first posted I admit I was just taking the issue at face value and relying on the Op and posts for basic info. For instance, sig said something to you like:
"you are aware this is a person born male but chooses to be female" I hadn't thought about any requirements for taking female hormones etc because no one had mentioned it. Even so, I see things like "after a yr or so, the male physical advantage disappears" though I don't really see it quantified statistically. Even if it was, I really have no interest in seeing a person born a male fighting Rhonda Rousey (or other persons born female). I'm sure there is a market for that though, as there is almost anything.

Question though. If taking hormones changes everything, do we expect to see people born female, taking male hormones, performance being enhanced to a male level after a year?
I mean if it can lower a man's abilities, can it raise a woman's?
Or are men and women "actually born different"?