I guess I should have mentioned that my speakers are in a sealed box, start to roll off at 150 hz and are down 12 dB at 75 hz.Therefore I'm not referring to deep bass, but the power required to reproduce certain instruments even at lower levels.

So can I presume you use a sub to fill in the lower end of the spectrum?

But going back to your implied question, I guess at my nearfield 80-85dB standard listening level, I'm pulling well under one watt out of my SE84C+ -- so that may explain why I have no issues whatoever at this time from 30Hz on up. And even though I'm not currently using low-bass orchestral samples in songs, I use some pretty low synth bass and electric guitar notes at times, and (luckily!) I've had no issues getting solid bass out of the system. But below 90Hz, most of that is coming from the stereo HSU STF-1 subs.

I even tried playing some live low electric bass guitar notes through my system after my previous post, and they sound rich, deep, and totally solid to me at this time. Not a hint of what I would expect to hear if the SE84C+ bass was breaking down.

Based on my original bass guitar distortion issue at max volume on the SE84C+ (before integrating the stereo subs into my system), I could have sworn that I'd need an external active crossover to filter out the low bass from going through the SE84C+ and getting to the PMC speakers. But, luckily, I didn't. So I'm glad I tried out this setup first before mentally dismissing it as unworkable. Again, to my ears, it's now one of the best sounding systems I've ever heard. But nearfield listening certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea...

Do you by any chance have Rebecca Pidgeon's Spanish Harlem or something similar that for a least part of the song is just double bass and voice?

PMFJIH, but I echo trying this recording. It is a great track for hearing the mid-range and low end at the same time with fewer "competitive layers" to listen through. Good album overall. Good on CD and nice on hi-res as well from HD Tracks.

And don't forget the option of inserting an active crossover (like the Bryston 10B-Sub) after a DAC or preamp, and then in essence T'ing off to the power amp and the subwoofer. That's what I thought I'd have to do to prevent what I thought would be occasional SE84C+ over-driven bass to my PMC speakers...

That is a great approach I was not aware of. It can certainly eliminate the stresses of crossing over at high levels (AMP), and avoid a lower quality built-in SUB X-Over. Nice

Bass is crucial and very demanding, especially with flea Watters. So, which is the preferred one for a setup consisting of Source / DAC / Preamp-AMP / Speakers? (other than adding an external X-Over?).

I guess I want to understand the tradeoffs involved, as these are not clear to me yet. I know most of these will work, and normally I wouldn't care much and would choose the easiest one. But in our particular, low level/high sensitive speakers' setup, I think optimizing this is as important or more than choosing the right cables and interconnects.

FB- there is some amount of pleasant harmonic texturization from the output trannys that would be passed on if you fed speaker level signal to the sub. While not absolutely necessary, it's something to consider.

Most subs don't have any high pass filtering in either their line level pass through or the speaker level pass through, so you don't really need to waste extra cables routing things that way. Keep it simple.

If you need to squeeze a little more out of your amp then an active crossover would come in handy, but my experience mirrors MarkBlair's. I actually have one but don't presently use it.

And to tag on to ski bum's comments, if you don't use a really excellent active crossover, you'll probably be creating more problems. I've tried pretty much every feasible option in my current setup (except for the active external crossover), and the DAC > low level (rca) out > splitter > SE84c+ and the active sub(s) works best for me.

The main danger in setups like this is the overlap of frequencies below the sub's cutoff freq, since both the sub and main speakers output overlaps there. I'm really lucky that my main speakers (coupled with the room) trails off fairly steeply starting at my subs' crossovers. But your mileage may vary.

But, IMHO, this option is at least worth trying before considering the huge additional expense of a decent external active crossover (like the Bryston).

My DAC has a volume control, so I now leave the volume on my SE84C+ at max. So a setup like this would control your amp & sub volume at the same time.

I should mention that -- either way -- you're going to have to spend some serious time getting the amp & subs' relative volumes correlated. There are some good manual ways to do it (the book "Get Better Sound" has some really good advice), but I used a couple of software spectrum analysis tools (along with a calibrated microphone) to assist.

Either way, this step is, IMHO, crucially important to getting balanced sound. Furthermore, I don't think a single sub will ever work as well as stereo subs -- both balance-wise and stereo image-wise...

Got it, Mark, thanks. I was going to setup the SUB this way, before I learned about the other possibilities. Now, learning from your experiences I will definitely go that way, initially.

With respect to adjusting bass volume, I believe it must be much more difficult in a stereo bass setting. In my own mono SUB experience, the SUB's volume can be adjusted independently until you hear the level that best complements the rest of the system. That is how it works in my current setup. My bookshelf speakers are so small I need to use the SUB's Direct X-Over at 200 Hz to get the best effect (in this setup, I'm using the SUB OUT from my SS amp).

Regarding the bass stereo effect, I was under the impression that bass is essentially mono. Presumably, it does not have to be stereo. At least that is the notion around. Evidently you seem to have experienced a different result by making the bass stereo, which is somewhat peculiar and new to me. While surround sound applications may justify multiple SUBs, I thought two-chanel music stereo is normally complemented by a single SUB. I'm learning every day.

BTW, in my curret SS setup (using the SUB OUT), every time I increase (or decrease) the amp's volume, the SUB's relative volume adjusts accordingly, automatically. I presume the same is true by connecting from the PRE OUTs. I would think not so when linking from the DAC.

In your case, the DAC has a volume setting and you can centralize all volume control there, but my DAC does not have that volume setting. Mmmhhhh ... Should I then use the PRE OUTs instead ( to avoid having to re-adjust the SUB's volume every time I change the amp's volume?) Is the PRE OUTs signal really volume setting dependent?

But, IMHO, this option is at least worth trying before considering the huge additional expense of a decent external active crossover (like the Bryston).

Agreed. I would love to have budget room for the Bryston, but no. And there are some well-made active crossovers that cost a bit less. Fireblade, depending on the aprpoach you take, you might want to consider one of the Paradigm X-10/20/30 units. Bob referred me to them, and so I picked up an X-30 off ebay. I am not sure if I will actually deploy it, because I am still wrestling with my own sub integration. I am getting two servo subs (Rhythmik guts) built in cabinets like my ERRs. Those won't be done for a little while. In the meantime, I am experimenting with my old Orb powered subwoofer just to see what seems to work with the system. Progress is slow, because I have very little free time this time of year, and I have some room placement challenges, and I am still figuring out the best way to take advantage of the Ultra's multiple outputs. Plus, I am tasking my subs to do double duty in both the HT aspect of my system, and the 2/5.1 audiophile side.

Anyway, there are a number of ways to go about integrating subs, as well-identified earlier in this thread. I highly recommend this series of articles on bass management and integration by the fellow from Red Spade Audio, because they will help reduce the trial & error work. I downloaded the software, procured the Behringer mike and mixer, and just started taking measurements. Having objective data to check against what your ears and brain are subjectively telling you is invaluable.

This is a good summary. I have a lot of respect for Geddes' work, and I have heard some of that theory in practice. Some very good speakers. But I have always found his multi-sub approach especially interesting, particularly his advice not to high-pass your main speakers. A lot of other writers seem to recommend high-pass specifically to reduce their bass load. I am probably more in that latter camp as well.

opnly_bafld, found the article, thanks. Pale Rider, your link is broken. Could you check it out?

Anyway, the matter is much more complex than I thought. I think I'm going to experiment when the time comes. In the mean time, I'll stick to a single SUB, linked through the DAC and will adjust the volume at both sides of the equation (amp and SUB) for volume adjustments.

If it sounds good enough, fine. If not, I'll start researching the subject more thoroughly. Thanks to all for your assistance.

In essence, my DAC (with its volume control) is also acting as a pre-amp. So if your DAC doesn't have a volume control, I suggest (as you thought) splitting off your pre-amp outs to control both the subs' and amp's volume at the same time.

And you can certainly survive with just one sub -- but it's a myth that low bass is mono. And so there are two arguments for multiple subs: 1) you can achieve a more uniform bass response (in this case, the two or more subs usually work with mono bass), and 2) you can achieve true stereo bass with two subs (or multiples of two if you're particularly adventurous!).

In my case, I was actually able to achieve both goals -- true stereo bass and a pretty darn flat response (but only at my central sweet spot) down to 30Hz. Most folks are happy achieving goal #1 (which is certainly not a trivial accomplishment). That was my primary goal (an even bass response). But since I was able to accomplish that with my subs symetrically placed just in front of my nearfield monitors (but on the floor), I was also able to get true stereo bass. And for true stereo recordings from an actual venue (as opposed to being synthesized with an mixing console and added stereo effects), you can certainly hear the difference with stereo bass.

Again, I've been very lucky with my setup. BUT -- if I hadn't tried it, I would have never known it would work so well.

For true venue recordings, as you call them, theoretically a stereo bass audio system (objective 2) should reflect a time delay from one side (channel) SUB to the other, unless the recording of the bass happened to be in the exact middle of the physical soundstage.

This, because lower frequencies travel much slower (relatively speaking) and true stereo should reflect the distance from the bass player to either channel. Is this the bass stereo effect you're referring to?

When you refer to uniform bass response (objective 1), isn't it equivalent to having a single SUB that does not peak or dip relative to the rest of the frequencies (i.e., the proper relative volume setting on the SUB)?

Sounds like you're on roughly the same page as I am (but bass doesn't travel slower than treble -- the wavelength is just longer). But I wouldn't obsess too much about stereo subs. That could be left for a future enhancement.

But getting a consistent bass level (objective 1) would be a huge accomplishment -- so mayble it's a good idea to proceed in phases. I started with one mono sub before I realized I wanted to see if I could make stereo subs work.

So yes, I'm talking about uniform bass levels -- and I think that's what everyone wants. I was able to get that with one sub -- but only within a relatively small sweet spot (again, I use nearfield monitoring). Typical mid-field listeners (which I define to be roughly 8-10 feet away from the speakers) who want a sweet spot that can acommodate more than one person will -- in my opinion -- be hard pressed to accomplish that (a uniform bass response) with just one sub -- particularly in a room of less than 2500 cubic feet.

This is just my opinion, so don't let that stop you from trying! And you know what? Uniform bass response, stereo subs, etc., are NOT CRITICAL to getting great enjoyment from great music. So -- don't sweat the small stuff.

In the Homebrewer hobby, where some of us can get truly fanatical and build/buy full barrel microprocessor-managed, digitally controlled brewing systems, we have an internet acronym: RDWHAHB, which stands for Relax, Don't Worry, Have A Home Brew. Sometimes I have to remind myself of the same thing here. I still remember listening to my little transistor radio as a kid, and simply loving the music.

The problem with high-fidelity is that once you start, it is very important to try to keep one's sense of perspective. Having said that, I think what Mark says is right. You can enjoy the music without perfect bass, though I do believe good bass is very important to a well-rounded, accurate, believable system. But taking it in phases is probably a very good suggestion. I would add the further suggestion to try and map a path that facilitates growth or improvement, without the requirement of throwing out or selling stuff. Experimenting with subs and separate amps can get pretty expensive. Given my decision to go with a dual servo sub approach, I now have some extra items I don't need. Funny thing is, the Rhythmik servo approach is where I was first inclined to go, before I got sidetracked and then returned to a variant, still servos but in custom cabinets.

Home brewing must be exciting ... Though I'm a wine guy myself. I wish good wine could be done at home too.

I also remember as a kid all the pocket, leather-bag small transistor radios we used to cherish.

You know, that's absolutely right. I plan to give the basic system a chance, while trying to improve on speaker positioning, limited room conditioning and SUB placement. After that, we'll see. I know once you get used to a sound quality level, you always want to improve on it. As there are always opportunities (though at diminishing returns for the investment), the curiosity and ever present aim at the wholy grail of sound is a perennial, addictive temptation.

In the end, what I enjoy most is the music, and this ought to be the objective that hopefully will help me control those urges.

Between Ultra, Torii, and ERR break-in, Bob Z. suggested to me I take my time. He's right. I remember the day "the bottom fell open" on the ERRs. Very rich in the bass. And the Toriis continue to bloom.

Right now, I have very good, solid, articulate bass in the system, but I will eventually get the subs done, and then we shall see what we have next!

P.S. I am also a wine person, but wouldn't dream of trying to make it. Had a brother in law once who did, and he did it about as well as possible, but still..........meh. But it is possible to make superlative beer.

Don't get me wrong. Although I prefer wine, I can enjoy a well brewed beer too. The best I've tasted was in Sao Paulo, in a pub that made their own beers. I spent two years living there, so I developed a taste for this wsell-known special black beer from the house, that I simply loved. Problem is, I don't find these around anymore.

While working in Cologne, years ago, a german co-worker made me taste several types. Good beer, although strong and at room temperature. This way you can really taste the ingredients, but those weren't for my. Funny!

Really sorry to see this gone from the lineup. I got one about a year ago and set it up on a finished piece of wood like in the documentation. Great if you don't mind the "science fair" look and no one around to put fingers where they shouldn't. Sounds absolutely wonderful with a pair of Tekton 8" single driver speakers.

I have the CSP-2 or ZenHead for a pre-amp stage, but it sounds best without.

I do expect that the new replacement with one or two more regulation stages will be an improved one, and likely a sonic wonder. And I bet if you seriously wanted another to match yours that used ones will become available.

Actually, to my pleasant surprise the new amp is happening with some divine luck at a much earlier time than expected. I'm listening to it now. I made a post in the SE34I.2 forum.

Here's what shook out...

New integrated sounds better than the old ones do, in part from "lucid mode" being the foundation of it's design.

The price is staying the same and my even be offered with a single pair of inputs for less money still.

That puts it in a similar sonic league with the Mini Torii, but at a lower price making it an easier choice when trying to decide between the two amps. It works well without a preamp, as it always has.