Erik, I was wondering what you think of this post now? (I fully recognize, and others should also, that it is nearly 5 1/2 years old)

It seems to contradict your 65/25/10 theory at first glance, but then again, maybe it doesn't.

Do you still believe what you said here is true, and does it fit within your 65/25/10 theory? By that I mean, are you suggesting that perhaps most 18 handicappers don't practice short game and putting AT ALL and simply need to go from 0/0 to 25/10?

Or, do you believe that "most" 18 handicappers have a glaring weakness in their short games and putting?

Or, do you just know more now than you did then?

No i think Erik is right in some regards. Golf is definitely a game of diminishing returns. There is just an absolutely limit to how well you can score. Its crazy, but the game is just fun.

The cool thing is, lets say we take the 65/25/10, that's 35% on putting and shortgame, that would be enough to save that guy at least 6 strokes a round. The occassional thinned or chunk shot, Gone. The three putting, Gone. It doesn't take much to learn how to putt and how to hit majority of the short game shots needed. 6 strokes, your looking at a short game % of 33% if the guy misses every green. That's a 12 handicap.

The occassional thinned or chunk shot, Gone. The three putting, Gone. It doesn't take much to learn how to putt and how to hit majority of the short game shots needed. 6 strokes, your looking at a short game % of 33% if the guy misses every green. That's a 12 handicap.

But golf isn't that simple, is it? Things like divots, lies (ball above, below feet), weather (wind), green condition, and others get in the way. I consider myself very good at short game but I still lose strokes due to things that is beyond my control. I have no doubt that someone can go from 18 to single but not in a month. If someone does that, it'd be one of those very rare occasion (someone younger, good coach, full time practice, ...).

But golf isn't that simple, is it? Things like divots, lies (ball above, below feet), weather (wind), green condition, and others get in the way. I consider myself very good at short game but I still lose strokes due to things that is beyond my control. I have no doubt that someone can go from 18 to single but not in a month. If someone does that, it'd be one of those very rare occasion (someone younger, good coach, full time practice, ...).

yes there's the rare bad lie, or bad break, but that's all with in the error of the game. Routinely messing up short game shots, people should be having a good putt at par for most short game shots. Even if that person is able to get inside of 15' with 75% of there short game shots, that's not that unforeseeable. Honestly, you can teach someone short game technique in maybe 2 lessons, and if they put a month of work in, they would be substantially better.

But once they learn it, all that is needed is a few practice sessions a year to stay tuned up on it. I really don't practice short game, unless i have a rough go during a round. Then i will spend like 2-3 days on it, and its good for a while. But i know the tools, its just keeping them in tune.

Erik, I was wondering what you think of this post now? (I fully recognize, and others should also, that it is nearly 5 1/2 years old)

It's both good and bad. It kind of applies, and kind of doesn't.

It doesn't really contradict the 65/25/10 thing because if you practiced for a month by working on course management (see our KickStarter book… :D), and your short game, you could probably become about a 6 handicap at both, and then your full swing (bearing in mind the course management stuff) should drop to about a 15 or so, putting you really close to being a 9 overall. Remember that a handicap index is the best 10 of your last 20, so you'll still shoot rounds with differentials of 12, 15, etc. But you should have good enough days with course management, ball striking, and short game to get to a 9.

Then you'll be stuck there, and you'll have to go back and work on your full swing, while your short game handicap (which got full attention for a month) might drift up to a 7 or an 8 unless you maintained the 25/10 aspects (which would be enough to keep it around a 6 until your full swing got to a 9 on its own).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Do you still believe what you said here is true, and does it fit within your 65/25/10 theory? By that I mean, are you suggesting that perhaps most 18 handicappers don't practice short game and putting AT ALL and simply need to go from 0/0 to 25/10?

Or, do you believe that "most" 18 handicappers have a glaring weakness in their short games and putting?

A bit of both. Some have glaring weaknesses, some just need to develop some shots. The short game is relatively easy to pick up, so you can make tremendous QUICK leaps by improving it when you're still lousy at golf (as 18 handicappers are).

And note what was listed first: "course management."

P.S. I was also talking about actual 18 handicappers - not the 18s who give themselves putts all the time and fluff up lies and things, then try to keep "actual" score. They're actually 27s or 32s or something, so my advice doesn't apply.

P.P.S. I'd probably back off from what I said a teeny bit given what I know now, but not as much as you might think.

It doesn't really contradict the 65/25/10 thing because if you practiced for a month by working on course management (see our KickStarter book… :D), and your short game, you could probably become about a 6 handicap at both, and then your full swing (bearing in mind the course management stuff) should drop to about a 15 or so, putting you really close to being a 9 overall. Remember that a handicap index is the best 10 of your last 20, so you'll still shoot rounds with differentials of 12, 15, etc. But you should have good enough days with course management, ball striking, and short game to get to a 9.

Then you'll be stuck there, and you'll have to go back and work on your full swing, while your short game handicap (which got full attention for a month) might drift up to a 7 or an 8 unless you maintained the 25/10 aspects (which would be enough to keep it around a 6 until your full swing got to a 9 on its own).

A bit of both. Some have glaring weaknesses, some just need to develop some shots. The short game is relatively easy to pick up, so you can make tremendous QUICK leaps by improving it when you're still lousy at golf (as 18 handicappers are).

And note what was listed first: "course management."

P.S. I was also talking about actual 18 handicappers - not the 18s who give themselves putts all the time and fluff up lies and things, then try to keep "actual" score. They're actually 27s or 32s or something, so my advice doesn't apply.

P.P.S. I'd probably back off from what I said a teeny bit given what I know now, but not as much as you might think.

Cool, thanks for the reply! That P.S. is definitely worth remembering because I think you're right that there are a heck of a lot more "18 handicappers" out there than actual 18 handicappers. :)

to get down to 5 or below and play to it consistently, golf needs to be your life and you need to play 2 to 5 times a week with practice .

I find this funny. Having started playing again after taking a few years off (I was a 6 handicap), I'm now playing the best golf of my life. In less than 12 months i've gone from a 9 down to a 2 handicap, I play once every three weeks and don't pick up a club in between. Mentally it seems so much easier now, I see no excuse for playing badly because looking at it as a whole it shouldn't be a hard game (the ball isn't even moving).

Hopefully this summer I can practice a few times a week and get down to scratch, I've shot quite a few rounds under par recently and putting is the obvious weakness.

So in response to this comment, no, you don't need to play a lot/make it your life. You need to focus on the shot at hand and have enough self believe that you can hit every shot how you want to

When you are more consistent you become more confident and you can learn to shape the ball how you want and play the shots you want to play.

Distance control. So what if you thinned it over the green, you can still get up and down for par and move on.

That and course management. Don't make silly mistakes and play each hole one at a time. Know when the reward outweighs the risk. Do I go straight for the pin 5 in from the right side with a bunker just off the green, or do I play to the middle and 2 putt for par. It's these decisions that can turn a possible birdie into bogey or worse.

Far too often I see players out there giving up after a few holes or 1 bad hole. New hole = new mentality.

I'm sure there is more but it's nearly 2am here and I'm not thinking straight.

I find this funny. Having started playing again after taking a few years off (I was a 6 handicap), I'm now playing the best golf of my life. In less than 12 months i've gone from a 9 down to a 2 handicap, I play once every three weeks and don't pick up a club in between. Mentally it seems so much easier now, I see no excuse for playing badly because looking at it as a whole it shouldn't be a hard game (the ball isn't even moving).

Hopefully this summer I can practice a few times a week and get down to scratch, I've shot quite a few rounds under par recently and putting is the obvious weakness.

So in response to this comment, no, you don't need to play a lot/make it your life. You need to focus on the shot at hand and have enough self believe that you can hit every shot how you want to

I hope I'm not responding to a troll here. But I find it funny that you find it funny. If what you say is true, your experience is the exception and not the rule. I think you will find a lot more 15 caps that play twice a week than 2 caps who play once every 3 weeks and never practice.

And if you are shooting under par, I'm not sure you can call your putting much of a weakness - or any other part of your game for that matter. Not comparatively anyway.

As far as focus on the shot and self belief - this might be great advice, but this alone isn't getting many folks to single digits. For most, yes you do need to play a lot. Practice, learn fundamentals, quit slicing it 30 yards into the woods, etc. If it was as easy as you say and required as little effort as you report, every weekend warrior would be a single digit. But I'd bet the average golfer shoots 100 or so - which would be a 30+ handicap.

I've been working my ass off the last year, and can just start to see the results. I am hoping that all the swing changes I needed to make this last year will result in a final swing. Then, I can finally work on my game.

I feel that I'm on the cusp of something good, but it's going to take another year of hard work for the payoff.

I went from a 40 hc down to a legitimate 20-ish in this last year by working so hard at it.

What I found is that once you get good enough that you can actually keep score, this game is really hard.

I've been working my ass off the last year, and can just start to see the results. I am hoping that all the swing changes I needed to make this last year will result in a final swing. Then, I can finally work on my game.

I feel that I'm on the cusp of something good, but it's going to take another year of hard work for the payoff.

I went from a 40 hc down to a legitimate 20-ish in this last year by working so hard at it.

What I found is that once you get good enough that you can actually keep score, this game is really hard.

I really wonder how anyone can get to a 2 with so little effort.

I hear you, I have been stuck in the 50's for a few years now. I try to practice as much as I can, but it's a hard game. I have contemplated suicide before, but I know it's just golf so I get rid of those thoughts quickly. The game really wears you down

I hear you, I have been stuck in the 50's for a few years now. I try to practice as much as I can, but it's a hard game. I have contemplated suicide before, but I know it's just golf so I get rid of those thoughts quickly. The game really wears you down

50s? What number are you referring to? It can't be handicap index. Perhaps, 0 was added by mistake. Yeah, I would have contemplated self induced pain if my handicap index stayed in 50's for a few years. Then again, golf is just a game. Hit a small ball into a much larger cup using technically advanced sticks. How hard can it be?

I hope I'm not responding to a troll here. But I find it funny that you find it funny. If what you say is true, your experience is the exception and not the rule. I think you will find a lot more 15 caps that play twice a week than 2 caps who play once every 3 weeks and never practice.

And if you are shooting under par, I'm not sure you can call your putting much of a weakness - or any other part of your game for that matter. Not comparatively anyway.

As far as focus on the shot and self belief - this might be great advice, but this alone isn't getting many folks to single digits. For most, yes you do need to play a lot. Practice, learn fundamentals, quit slicing it 30 yards into the woods, etc. If it was as easy as you say and required as little effort as you report, every weekend warrior would be a single digit. But I'd bet the average golfer shoots 100 or so - which would be a 30+ handicap.

No, No troll here mate.

Ironically, I find it funny on top of you finding my comment funny; this was not my intention.

I don't believe I am "the exception". If I walked up to someone (who knew nothing of golf) and said, you get given 14 clubs, and all you need to do is put the ball in the hole, for which there is a recommended score you should achieve it sounds simple. The ball does not move, and you can take (up to a certain extent) as much time as you want to see what shot you want to hit.

Yes, I am shooting under par, and yes I cal my putting a huge weakness. My last round under par, I hit 16 of 18 GIR and had 7 one putts (5 birdies), 4 3 putts and the rest two putts which left me One under. So 16 of 18 GIR and 34 putts; that seems like a weakness to me?

My last round at a course I'd never played, shot 3 over but had 5 three putts and 35 putts for the round, again this seems like a weakness?

In regards to "weekend warriors", you'll find a lot will drop there handicaps if they look at the game as a whole and realize how simplistic and easy it should be. My father, and Uncle being great examples; both play 1-3 times per month and played off about 18-22 handicaps. When they looked at the end of the round what went wrong they saw all these shots that were being thrown away.

The following week, the stepped behind each shot and took the time to imagine what they wanted to do, they no longer tried to smash it like Tiger or Rory, instead they knew that a slice is unfortunately the way they hit the ball, so tee it up on the right, pick a spot down the left and what do you know they dropped 5 shots each.

Last weekend their handicaps are sitting around 8-10 at present, with no more practice thrown in. Instead they believe they can do things, and they execute.

Unfortunately, not many people think like this and thus keep slogging away practicing 3 times a week instead of thinking about what they need to do to get better. Sure getting that one drive away make look impressive, but signing your card after the 18th for a much improved score is the ultimate I would imagine for many.

Here's my spin. If you learned golf at a young age the technique is yours forever. Your skill level my decline but you can put in some work and improve that quickly. BUT, if you did not learn golf as a youth you will have a MUCH harder time getting into the physical and mental aspects with high success. I also find comparisons to swimming useful. Try to teach an older person how to swim and you will no doubt find someone who is afraid of the water, takes to the pool with the balance of fear over fun. Once in the water massive effort is played out to keep from going under, etc. All this effort is not leaning how to swim but rather to keep alive. A kid has hardly any such fear and wasted effort. Golf is counter intuitive and no one comes naturally to the game without watching someone better.

I'm no longer a single digit player but when I was, it was purely from short game practice. I chipped into hula hoops or trash cans in the yard. I would flop shots over my kids' swing set. I would play "bocci" with golf balls with my friends. At my best, I shot a 71 with one GIR. If my approach game had ever been on par with my short game and driving, I would have been scratch but as it was I peaked at around 7.

I cant speak for myself, but i have a friend who is a 8 handicap and the difference between him and myself... His drives are a good 30 to 50 yards farther and usually right on the fairway or slightly off... and he can shape the ball too..

his iron play is unreal !! he is usually hitting a 8-9-pw-sw to the green on his next shot..

and usually is no more than a 2 putt on most greens...

Now If i could improve my drives by just keeping them on or around the fairway i'd be extremely happy!!

Which in return would usually make my second shot a lot easier !!! and in return instead of putting to save par / bogey, i'm putting for birdie... and at worse a 2 putt is a par..

i know it sounds simple, but if you can keep your ball in play you should be able to shave a bunch of strokes off your game..

I hope I'm not responding to a troll here. But I find it funny that you find it funny. If what you say is true, your experience is the exception and not the rule. I think you will find a lot more 15 caps that play twice a week than 2 caps who play once every 3 weeks and never practice.

And if you are shooting under par, I'm not sure you can call your putting much of a weakness - or any other part of your game for that matter. Not comparatively anyway.

As far as focus on the shot and self belief - this might be great advice, but this alone isn't getting many folks to single digits. For most, yes you do need to play a lot. Practice, learn fundamentals, quit slicing it 30 yards into the woods, etc. If it was as easy as you say and required as little effort as you report, every weekend warrior would be a single digit. But I'd bet the average golfer shoots 100 or so - which would be a 30+ handicap.

No, No troll here mate.

Ironically, I find it funny on top of you finding my comment funny; this was not my intention.

I don't believe I am "the exception". If I walked up to someone (who knew nothing of golf) and said, you get given 14 clubs, and all you need to do is put the ball in the hole, for which there is a recommended score you should achieve it sounds simple. The ball does not move, and you can take (up to a certain extent) as much time as you want to see what shot you want to hit.

Yes, I am shooting under par, and yes I cal my putting a huge weakness. My last round under par, I hit 16 of 18 GIR and had 7 one putts (5 birdies), 4 3 putts and the rest two putts which left me One under. So 16 of 18 GIR and 34 putts; that seems like a weakness to me?

My last round at a course I'd never played, shot 3 over but had 5 three putts and 35 putts for the round, again this seems like a weakness?

In regards to "weekend warriors", you'll find a lot will drop there handicaps if they look at the game as a whole and realize how simplistic and easy it should be. My father, and Uncle being great examples; both play 1-3 times per month and played off about 18-22 handicaps. When they looked at the end of the round what went wrong they saw all these shots that were being thrown away.

The following week, the stepped behind each shot and took the time to imagine what they wanted to do, they no longer tried to smash it like Tiger or Rory, instead they knew that a slice is unfortunately the way they hit the ball, so tee it up on the right, pick a spot down the left and what do you know they dropped 5 shots each.

Last weekend their handicaps are sitting around 8-10 at present, with no more practice thrown in. Instead they believe they can do things, and they execute.

Unfortunately, not many people think like this and thus keep slogging away practicing 3 times a week instead of thinking about what they need to do to get better. Sure getting that one drive away make look impressive, but signing your card after the 18th for a much improved score is the ultimate I would imagine for many.

Golf, like most individual sports is simple in theory. In practice, yes, they may be hard but only the user is to blame as they put the ball where they are now playing it from.

I may be in the minority, but a lot of people (I believe) could improve if they took a more simplistic approach to the game, instead of turning it into this complex algorithm that only a select few can master.

Yes, I am shooting under par, and yes I cal my putting a huge weakness. My last round under par, I hit 16 of 18 GIR and had 7 one putts (5 birdies), 4 3 putts and the rest two putts which left me One under. So 16 of 18 GIR and 34 putts; that seems like a weakness to me?
My last round at a course I'd never played, shot 3 over but had 5 three putts and 35 putts for the round, again this seems like a weakness?

In regards to "weekend warriors", you'll find a lot will drop there handicaps if they look at the game as a whole and realize how simplistic and easy it should be. My father, and Uncle being great examples; both play 1-3 times per month and played off about 18-22 handicaps. When they looked at the end of the round what went wrong they saw all these shots that were being thrown away.

The following week, the stepped behind each shot and took the time to imagine what they wanted to do, they no longer tried to smash it like Tiger or Rory, instead they knew that a slice is unfortunately the way they hit the ball, so tee it up on the right, pick a spot down the left and what do you know they dropped 5 shots each.

Last weekend their handicaps are sitting around 8-10 at present, with no more practice thrown in. Instead they believe they can do things, and they execute.

Unfortunately, not many people think like this and thus keep slogging away practicing 3 times a week instead of thinking about what they need to do to get better. Sure getting that one drive away make look impressive, but signing your card after the 18th for a much improved score is the ultimate I would imagine for many.

Okay, the point most of us is making is that golf is not simple.

I was sitting 150 feet above a green with 188 horizontal yards between me and the hole. I hit my hybrid and that ball hit the green really hard and bounced a little towards the hole. The first thing I thought was what a lucky shot. There was some skill involved, but mostly dumb luck.

That same shot could have just as easily gone into OB behind it, duffed into the hill I was sitting atop, sliced onto the road next to the fairway or any other thing. I lost 6 balls that same round and had 11 total OB strokes. I scored 96, but if it wasn't for the OB I could have scored an 85. Even better if I had 1 putted every hole, I would have been in the low 60s.

The point I am trying to make is that S**T happens a lot, and the courses are made to have challenges that make it hard.