Go to page

Explorer

I find it funny that people seem to know more about a fictional race that i created than the one who made them. It is like saying to god, hay that's not how it works when really he should know because well he made it. I promise, explanations and expansion of all that is this small and might add controversial race will be revealed at a later date when i am done with the races for players as a whole. Mean while please continue as this is very good material on my end and might even use a snip it or two to help fill in some of the cracks that i have been stuck on or not.

Villager

I find it funny that people seem to know more about a fictional race that i created than the one who made them. It is like saying to god, hay that's not how it works when really he should know because well he made it. I promise, explanations and expansion of all that is this small and might add controversial race will be revealed at a later date when i am done with the races for players as a whole. Mean while please continue as this is very good material on my end and might even use a snip it or two to help fill in some of the cracks that i have been stuck on or not.

I have never in my life considered an English Major to have value until today. Find one and have them help you with everything you write. At the very least refer to Weird Al's song "Word Crimes". Please. For the sanity of all.

Adventurer

I have never in my life considered an English Major to have value until today. Find one and have them help you with everything you write. At the very least refer to Weird Al's song "Word Crimes". Please. For the sanity of all.

Explorer

I find it funny that people seem to know more about a fictional race that i created than the one who made them. It is like saying to god, hay that's not how it works when really he should know because well he made it. I promise, explanations and expansion of all that is this small and might add controversial race will be revealed at a later date when i am done with the races for players as a whole. Mean while please continue as this is very good material on my end and might even use a snip it or two to help fill in some of the cracks that i have been stuck on or not.

Don't take it personally. As [MENTION=6779196]Charlaquin[/MENTION] said upthread, it's just a touchy subject right now, and people are quick to assume you have a message, even though it sounds like that wasn't your intention.

(FWIW, I don't have a problem with imaginary alien biology for imaginary alien species.)

Explorer

I have no issues with an alien race with multiple genders either. I did want to point out the issues with having such a high birth rate, and the issues of having so many genders. More genders, especially 5, and having all of them needed for the reproductive process is very restricting on the species, which actually could be a contribution to them having such a high birth rate. If they don't "Marry" like humans do, and only all come together when it is time to mate (many creatures only mate when it is time), then reproduction would be fairly rare, and they would need a higher number of births all at once. So if you changed it so their reproductive cycle is more based on when one or more of them are in "heat", and it is only at certain times, then it might work.

Also, you would need to decide how much work it takes to raise the children. With 30 children born at once, 5 parents is not enough to keep them all taken care of if they are like humans. If they are more like other creatures, where they can walk and forage for their own food fairly quickly (horses and such can walk seconds after birth), then it becomes easier. You could also make them naturally not care for their children, like crocodiles or reptiles. They lay the eggs and leave them to their own devices. Not many survive, but some will. Another good reason to have a high number of births at once.

The main issue I have is if it really is a family unit, with five parents...I would not want to be those parents. I'd do away with the thought of "Marriage" at all, have them be a society that reproduces based on opportunity, not based on family units. Perhaps two of the genders tend to live together to actively raise the children, while a third gender typicaly lives alone and only comes to the others to reproduce, and the fourth and fifth...I don't know, play the role of aunts and uncles in the children's lives or something. But I don't see a five parent family doing well.

I'd also make the children either developed enough to take somewhat care of themselves when born, or so underdeveloped (like marsupials) that taking care of them until they are ready to go out on their own is extremely easy. With that many births, can you imagine five people having to care for 30 babies all at once, every day? It may be doable, but it would be a nightmare. You can also lower the number of children born at once, as well.

Rotten DM

I have never in my life considered an English Major to have value until today. Find one and have them help you with everything you write. At the very least refer to Weird Al's song "Word Crimes". Please. For the sanity of all.

here it is. And I one of the worst spellers here and have real trouble getting my point across. But Dwayne you are getting ticked at the people who are trying to help. And we will be snarky about helping you.

Explorer

You're forgetting that the planet they were living on was so hostile to life, most chidren never reached maturity, and the adults died left and right. Only the strongest, and luckiest, actually survived. They needed the high birth rate in order to combat this and keep the species going. Out the thousands born, only a few would actually survive until adulthood, and considering there are animals who leave their young to themselves, it is possible that this is what Krogan did before they went off world. Once they had a means to keep all their children alive until adulthood, their population exploded. In a few hundred years they were swarming the galaxy.

It would be like i crocodiles somehow learned how to make sure all their eggs hatched and grew to maturity. Crocs lay up to 100 eggs at a time, but most die before reaching maturity. If they didn't, then the crocodile population would explode, prey would become scarce, and they would spread to find new prey. Literally no different.

No, this is the genophage. Krogan at the time of Mass Effect have not been able to have many children for a long time because of it. Most of their children are stillborn. So yeah, NOW they don't have a huge number of kids, but that's the whole point of the genophage. It contradicts nothing. it is literally the story.

It's also very difficult to infer any information by looking at a single slide.

The rest of your post is confusing, because we don't know how long it takes for a Krogan to reach maturity, but we do know they were able to be grown quickly to be soldiers for a war. That, itself, would suggest that they have an abnormally large breeding rate. And that suggests a fairly quick maturity rate. So you give evidence for them having high birth rate and quick maturity rate, but seem to be claiming that evidence shows the opposite. And I'm not sure what you're talking about them being child prodigies. They're an intelligent race that matures to adulthood much, much faster than humans do. By our standards yeah, they would be 'child prodigies'. They're easily as intelligent as any other race, they have engineers and scientists. And they piggyback off of other races.

I'm not saying there aren't inaccuracies in the game about fictional creatures, just that these arguments don't entirely follow.

The games repeatedly try to manufacture a moral dilemma where you're given a binary choice between curing the genophage or condemning the krogan to extinction. The dilemma being based on the assumption that krogans are inherently predisposed to breeding out of control. It's a disturbing neo-malthusian space man's burden type of deal that wouldn't be out of place in a Tom Kratman novel.

The logistics as described don't work. The krogans aren't biologically feasible. In fact, any population control dilemma like this doesn't seem feasible.

I'll describe this using the "r/K selection theory." It's been discredited but it's still a useful shorthand.

Essentially, a r-selected species produces a lot of offspring and invests zero parental care because most of those offspring won't live to reproduce. By contrast, a K-selected species produces a small number of offspring and invests parental care to ensure most live to reproduce.

With me so far?

The krogan are described as an r-selected species. The problem here is that it isn't feasible for an r-selected species to develop near-human intelligence. Why? Because things like language and culture and science need to be taught. The krogan should never have been able to develop sapience without a K-selection strategy.

Although the krogan are repeatedly claimed to be an r-selected species, what little we actually do see of their child-rearing practices does resemble a K-selected species. That is, they raise a small number of offspring who they instruct in language, culture and science. At the end of Mass Effect 3, we see a slide in which a krogan couple hold a baby after the genophage is cured. One baby, not a thousand.

It isn't physically possible for krogans to lay ~1000 eggs per year as they are stated to. An adult krogan is about 8 feet or so tall. A krogan newborn is about 2 feet tall. It isn't physically possible for a krogan woman to pop out a thousand of those two foot babies through her vagina every year, or approximately three births per day.

The writing contradicts itself depending on whether it wants you to be sympathetic toward the krogan or not. It rarely provides hard numbers but when it does those numbers are blatantly absurd.

I don't understand how this is so difficult to understand. The writers tried to pose a neo-malthusian population control dilemma. The problem is that the dilemma is physically impossible and relies on the player having no knowledge of the biological and mathematical science that it butchers.

Explorer

I’m not saying you’re entirely wrong, but you do make some general assumptions that would negate your argument.

You state that an r-selected species would not gain sapience because this has to be taught, but who’s to say their primitive culture didn’t have their offspring live in the wild until they have grown to a point, and then welcome the survivors into the larger group. In a planet as hostile as they had, this would be a great way to weed out the weaker ones and only accept the stronger. When their learning got to the point where they figured out better ways to survive, using technology, more of the children would survive, and eventually they could have grown out of the need to weed out all the weak ones, and simply allowed all their children to survive.

You keep using a single picture to depict an entire culture, a slide showing them holding a Krogan baby swaddled. It’s one picture, and does not tell you how old the baby is, or how many siblings it has. Since we don’t know what Krogan birth looks like, whether it’s by egg or live, we don’t know that this is an actual Krogan newborn, or if it is weeks, or even months, old. The eggs could be much smaller, or the live birth could be more like marsupials, which are live birthed but start out smaller than a finger. The thing is, there is just too much information that is not given to make these kinds of blanket statements.

I agree that it’s highly unlikely a species like this would exist, but I do see it as being possible, simply by looking at our own egosystems. Take a species that has a high birth rate, like pigs, and put them in a place where their natural predators don’t exist, like Australia, and you wind up with a population explosion. Wild pigs are nuisance there, and this is the case for many animals when the ecosystem changes. We killed most of the wolves in the US, and now deer run rampant and their population is mostly unchecked, requiring hunting seasons just to lower their population. In certain places, the counties beg people to just shoot the deer in their yards, because the sheer number of them becomes a hazard for roadways. If they were left unchecked, they would grow and grow until there wasn’t enough food to support them all, and then many would starve as a way of controlling the population.

Just look at humanity. We’ve conquered the wild at this point. Most of our children survive to adulthood, and we no longer have the same threats we once did. Because of this, in a mere two hundred years we went from 1 billion on the planet to 7. We went from 6 Billion to 7 Billion in ten or fifteen years, simply because we learned how to combat some of our biggest threats using technology. It’s not unfeasible to think that an intelligent race who sees other planets as a means to help their population growth would rather go after those planets than allow their population to be controlled by starvation and/or birth control.

Villager

Just look at humanity. We’ve conquered the wild at this point. Most of our children survive to adulthood, and we no longer have the same threats we once did. Because of this, in a mere two hundred years we went from 1 billion on the planet to 7. We went from 6 Billion to 7 Billion in ten or fifteen years, simply because we learned how to combat some of our biggest threats using technology. It’s not unfeasible to think that an intelligent race who sees other planets as a means to help their population growth would rather go after those planets than allow their population to be controlled by starvation and/or birth control.

The majority of that population is born to third world people with access to our medicine but with ideologies that promote high birth rates that evolved when they didn't have those antibiotics and medical procedures. If you count only the first world the birth rate is stable. It's the same reason in a game world you can't have clerics everywhere providing Cure Wounds and Cure Disease to everyone without those clerics preaching smaller family sizes and refusing to heal those who don't follow the New Word of the Gods. You'd be butt deep in people and not enough arable land to feed them on.

Villager

True dat brother. I used to SUCK at spelling (well before computers had spell checking on everything) and because people didn't take me seriously online I had to learn how to spell and correct my own grammar. Embarrassment may not be popular in todays scholastic culture but it sure worked on me.

Villager

I have no issues with an alien race with multiple genders either. I did want to point out the issues with having such a high birth rate, and the issues of having so many genders. More genders, especially 5, and having all of them needed for the reproductive process is very restricting on the species, which actually could be a contribution to them having such a high birth rate.

We did the math too. I was reading the article to my son (and going into grammar German party in control during WWII through much of it) and he's a serious math geek. He said "Five kids per parent?" He knows how much of a pain in the butt he was all by his lonesome as an only child. Imagine having 29 whatever you call young siblings with all those genders. Imagine the diapers alone... ALL AT ONCE! Terrible Two's all at once. Egad, they'd best be the most mellow people in the universe or else there would be a WHOLE LOT of REALLY late term abortions if you take my meaning.

We figured no one with children invented that race. Unless they had masochistic tendencies.

Explorer

We did the math too. I was reading the article to my son (and going into grammar German party in control during WWII through much of it) and he's a serious math geek. He said "Five kids per parent?" He knows how much of a pain in the butt he was all by his lonesome as an only child. Imagine having 29 whatever you call young siblings with all those genders. Imagine the diapers alone... ALL AT ONCE! Terrible Two's all at once. Egad, they'd best be the most mellow people in the universe or else there would be a WHOLE LOT of REALLY late term abortions if you take my meaning.

We figured no one with children invented that race. Unless they had masochistic tendencies.

Man they are build around a group mentality were everyone works for all, they hate being alone and are kind of fearful of it as they honestly have never been so. Even the one gender they treat badly they would never just turn it away to be alone it's not in their nature. I did it this way for a reason which will be documented at a later date, as it is meant to be an odd thing for the race that is so counter to they way they are. A contradiction of a sort to make them that much more of a oddity, any ways back to the grind stone, also sorry for snapping sometimes i get too deep into the characters and my feelings take on a life of their own.

Explorer

I have never in my life considered an English Major to have value until today. Find one and have them help you with everything you write. At the very least refer to Weird Al's song "Word Crimes". Please. For the sanity of all.

Villager

Man, they are built with a group mentality where everyone works for all. They fear being alone because they have never been alone. Even the gender they treat badly would never be turned away and forced to be alone. They simply cannot do such a thing.

I did it this way for a reason, which will be documented at a later date, as it is meant to be a twist that forces them to live in a way that runs counter to their nature. A contradiction that will make them that much more of a oddity.

Anyway, back to the grind stone. I am sorry for snapping sometimes, i get too deep into the characters and my feelings take on a life of their own.

Made a few changes, I hope you see how easier it is to read through. Point you seem to be missing is the ratio of offspring to parents. People who have twins are treated by other parents like some kind of saint for not killing one of them and keeping the other. When a couple pops out 5 kids they have to count on a lot of family and friends because they can't keep up with five. Now you are proposing 5 to 6 children per person in the coupling. That would require assistance. A lot of assistance. A society with that high of a birthrate wouldn't have time to do anything else but raising children. Their medical tech would be advanced but again, not much else would. No time for anything but working with the children.

Legend

The games repeatedly try to manufacture a moral dilemma where you're given a binary choice between curing the genophage or condemning the krogan to extinction. The dilemma being based on the assumption that krogans are inherently predisposed to breeding out of control. It's a disturbing neo-malthusian space man's burden type of deal that wouldn't be out of place in a Tom Kratman novel.

The logistics as described don't work. The krogans aren't biologically feasible. In fact, any population control dilemma like this doesn't seem feasible.

I'll describe this using the "r/K selection theory." It's been discredited but it's still a useful shorthand.

Essentially, a r-selected species produces a lot of offspring and invests zero parental care because most of those offspring won't live to reproduce. By contrast, a K-selected species produces a small number of offspring and invests parental care to ensure most live to reproduce.

With me so far?

The krogan are described as an r-selected species. The problem here is that it isn't feasible for an r-selected species to develop near-human intelligence. Why? Because things like language and culture and science need to be taught. The krogan should never have been able to develop sapience without a K-selection strategy.

Although the krogan are repeatedly claimed to be an r-selected species, what little we actually do see of their child-rearing practices does resemble a K-selected species. That is, they raise a small number of offspring who they instruct in language, culture and science. At the end of Mass Effect 3, we see a slide in which a krogan couple hold a baby after the genophage is cured. One baby, not a thousand.

It isn't physically possible for krogans to lay ~1000 eggs per year as they are stated to. An adult krogan is about 8 feet or so tall. A krogan newborn is about 2 feet tall. It isn't physically possible for a krogan woman to pop out a thousand of those two foot babies through her vagina every year, or approximately three births per day.

The writing contradicts itself depending on whether it wants you to be sympathetic toward the krogan or not. It rarely provides hard numbers but when it does those numbers are blatantly absurd.

I don't understand how this is so difficult to understand. The writers tried to pose a neo-malthusian population control dilemma. The problem is that the dilemma is physically impossible and relies on the player having no knowledge of the biological and mathematical science that it butchers.

I basically agree with you regarding the absurdity of the neo-Malthusan moral dilemma, but I will point out that the Krogan did not develop their own culture naturally, the Salarians uplifted them for their own purposes. They have an unnaturla society of violent sociopaths, and it didn't work out well. Then again, the logistics for that wouldn't work either, so...

Explorer

You can obviously create whatever system your want but this race would never survive and likely never even evolve as there is not enough generic diversity advantage here to offset how much of a challenge it would be to find that many mates.

Furthermore you make it even more unlikely as you state it takes a specific activity being done to get it be known a gender.

Explorer

Mmm... This really depends on how you define gender. Modern gender theory, as it pertains to humans, would disagree. Most scholars on the subject nowadays agree that gender is performative, and there are plenty of animals that have more than two sex-related roles that different members of their species perform. Even if we go with the now largely scientifically outdated concept of sex and gender being interchangeable, it is far more complex than the traditional male/female binary, even for humans. Plenty of animals have more than two clear-cut sets of sex characteristics, including humans, and plenty of animals change sex characteristics under certain conditions (humans not included). Granted, there are no species on earth that require more than two parents to produce offspring, but saying that all species on earth that reproduce sexually have only two genders is an oversimplification on multiple levels. The data is clear, gender and sex are both spectra, in humans and other animals alike, so I see no reason the same wouldn’t be true of fantasy races and/or fictional life forms from other planets. Requiring more than two members of the species for reproduction would be an extraordinary biological oddity and would therefore demand extraordinary fictional justification, but the idea of a race with more than two genders is downright pedestrian to anyone with a working knowledge of either gender studies, zoology, or both.

From a REPRODUCTIVE view there are only two genders each with a specific see of plumbing designed to work with the plumbing of the other gender.

From a psychological view one can discuss multiple gender subtypes based on lifestyle, genetic mutation, trauma, etc, but all those subtypes with very rare exceptions due to generic disorders contain the physical components of one of the he two genders that exist to facilitate reproduction.

The creator of this post is not discussing psychological variations in gender. He is talk about six actual different genders each of which is necessary in the process for reproduction.