Claiming state benefits in Britain is HARAM.

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I say that the above statement is true because the Quran has stated that we must pay taxes (this is a Jizya because we are a minority living in a majority country). On the other hand, claiming benefits is not stated as being permissible and is not part of the Sharia, likely because it forms part of a secular system which not based on collection/distribution of Zakat. The taxes which we pay (those who do) are used for the schools which our children attend and the hospitals which we use when we are ill. On the other hand, money for the payment of state benefits should be seen as having Riba (usuary) origins because financial services (Banks & insurance co's) generate more tax revenue for the UK government than any other industry in Britain. Therefore, when we are taking money we have not worked for which is exactly the same as taking interest.

We are not "automatically entitled" to any money from this government because in order to receive benefits, we have to apply (requestfully beg) for these hand-outs from non-Muslim administrators. To which the Quran states:'Abdullah Ibn 'Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The man who always begs will meet Allah with no flesh left on his face.'

Some people will not like what I have said because I am questioning their entitlement Nafs and the very reason they live in this country (do they live here to give dawah or to leach from the state?). The Molvi sahibs and community leaders are shy to bring this topic up because in many cases they depend on hand-outs from the government. Shouldn't these leaders be paid Zakat or financial support from our own Muslim community, instead of having to claim money which they have not paid, or worked for, which has interest origins?

I need your thoughts on these issues, if there is hardly any response then I will assume that my theory is correct and that all Muslim people who claim benefits (like income support or Job Seekers) are taking haram money.

I need your thoughts on these issues, if there is hardly any response then I will assume that my theory is correct and that all Muslim people who claim benefits (like income support or Job Seekers) are taking haram money.

You shouldn't have stated your theory, as fact, in the title.

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"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

I would just like to add that pensions are permissible, according to my knowledge, because the amount which we receive is based on the amount that we have paid. The system for pensions is different because it is through our National Insurance contributions. But educated Muslims with good jobs would most likely have private pensions anyway.

and no, the taxes we pay are NOT jizya. The UK does not work under a protectorate system (and even then the idea is that the people pay Jizya if they do not cooperate with the state in any other way (ie normal taxes) and still require its protection).

Your qualification for pensions being different is absurd and ludicrous. If they are allowed, so is everything else.

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"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Benefits are for those who are in need of them. How can taking benefits be haram?! Its a different story when someone is taking benefits under false pretences. What exactly do you suggest those muslims that DO take benefits do as an alternative?
(Don't say work cos most people wouldnt take benefits if they do)

Benefits are for those who are in need of them. How can taking benefits be haram?! Its a different story when someone is taking benefits under false pretences. What exactly do you suggest those muslims that DO take benefits do as an alternative?
(Don't say work cos most people wouldnt take benefits if they do)

They should abstain from take any money which they have not earnt from their own work. If these people are subsequently so poor that they can't afford to live then that should make them eligible for Zakat, the Islamic system was intended exactly for these people in their times of need if they genuinely need it for living.

and no, Zakat cant cover everything - charity even when there is a case of charity (and this is not) is NOT zakaat and we are encouraged to give charity.

You need to come up with something from the quran and sunnah before making rules as to what is halaal and haraam. This is not a matter you can use your own mind about, it is something that is required to be from the qur'an and sunnah.

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"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

and no, Zakat cant cover everything - charity even when there is a case of charity (and this is not) is NOT zakaat and we are encouraged to give charity.

You need to come up with something from the quran and sunnah before making rules as to what is halaal and haraam. This is not a matter you can use your own mind about, it is something that is required to be from the qur'an and sunnah.

As I have stated in my original post:
"We are not "automatically entitled" to any money from this government because in order to receive benefits, we have to apply (requestfully beg) for these hand-outs from non-Muslim administrators. To which the Quran states:'Abdullah Ibn 'Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The man who always begs will meet Allah with no flesh left on his face.'"

When children are given money from parents then this is intended as a gift or as a family responsibility, the Quran has many examples of giving and taking gifts. Benefits are not gifts, in order to gain the funds you have to apply (requestfully beg) for money from non-Muslim administrators, the authorities do not automatically give out any money. Besides the benefits are not one-off (like a gift) and you do not have to reciprocate any of this unearned money (as you should to a gift).

The state has not made it compulsary for those on "low incomes" or "jobless" people to take benefits. It is up to the applicant (polite begger) to choose whether to ask for help from from non-Muslim administrators or not.

If you apply your translation of begging elsewhere, a shop keeper will be begging a customer for the price of a products, the customer begging the shop keeper for the product. No, the shop keeper is entitled to be paid for the products sold and the buyer is entitled to recieve the product he has paid for.

You can't just make such things up and apply them anywhere.

Benefit fraud is an issue - money illicitly obtained through lying, but actual benefits you are entitled to? no. No issue there.

On the other hand, if the administrator was Muslim, would it make a difference in your claims? (I am asking because you mention "non Muslim" as if it matters and then don't back that bit up later.)

Would you consider requesting zakaah money for the poor to also be begging? If not, why not?

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"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

The economic system of running a business is well documented in the Quran and Hadith. According to teachings, a Malik should work and subsequently save up to buy his stock, or take out a Halal loan (the loan money would initally be unearned but the Malik should agree to pay it back). In respect of the customer, he/she should have earned their money in a Halal way then they will purchase the essential the goods/products from the Malik. Benefits are not material goods or products and in the case of our scenario Halal earned income is being exchanged for Halal earned goods/products, the same is not the case if somebody applies for state benefits.

Are you saying that under Islamic law we are allowed to apply (a way to formally beg) for money which we have not earned? If the state entitled each "low income" person to a bottle of alcohol would we as Muslims take it? The state would actually prefer it if hundreds of thousands of people stopped taking benefits and took care of their own responsibilities because it would save them millions of pounds each year. In addition to making Muslim people look self-sufficient and able to financially stand up on their own two feet (as the Quran/Hadith clearly state we should do). When British-Muslims leach from the state it gives the far-right and other associated media outlets an excuse to prove how weak Muslim people are financially (as offical government claimant statistics show). This is the reason why we have a system of Zakah where rich and healthy Muslims look after the less fortunate in their own community, in addition to paying taxes to the state (Christain or otherwise) for the roads, schools and hospitals which the Muslims and their families use on a daily basis.

If a person applies for benefits then the administrator is simply acting as an agent for the state. If you go into a Muslim owned off-licence store and purchase alcohol to consume, it will not make the liquid halal just because the person selling it was a Muslim (i'm sure that you'll already know this).

Personally requesting money on behalf of the poor is begging, yes I agree that it is, but it is authorised as halal within a strict and certain islamic context. But that does not necessarily make it Zakah. Zakah is a fixed percentage of our wealth which we pay to the less fortunate every year. If you go into a Masjid and the collectors (think of them as Islamic tax collectors) ask you to pay, they will be targeting you for your Zakah (collectors will most likely assume that you have not yet paid your yearly rates), Fitrana or Lillah. The collectors will in trust be asking on behalf of less fortunate (but Islamically qualifying) people who cannot physically be in the mosque. The Quran states:

As-sadaqaat (zakah) are only for the fuqaraa (destitute), and al-masaakin (poor) and those employed to collect (the funds) and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (toward Islam), and to free captives, and for those in debt, and for Allah's cause (those fighting in Allah’s cause) and for the wayfarer; a duty imposed by Allah. And Allah is All-Knower, All-Wiser.

if the respected scholars in the uk declare it forbidden then i will agree with them. But you cannot pass fatwas. You claim its a hypothesis but you are aggressive in knocking down those who are disagreeing with you.

I was under the impression the benefit system was created by the taxes of people working. So if i work, or my husband works any benefit i may be entitled to is haram how?.

As for usury on your hypothesis we are not allowed to use the banking systems in the uk at all, or anywhere really because they are all built on riba.

filling in a form is not the same as begging.

Some benefits are available to everyone regardless of whether its asked for or not i.e child benefit.

What next are milk tokens haram too?

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“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]

if the respected scholars in the uk declare it forbidden then i will agree with them. But you cannot pass fatwas. You claim its a hypothesis but you are aggressive in knocking down those who are disagreeing with you.

I was under the impression the benefit system was created by the taxes of people working. So if i work, or my husband works any benefit i may be entitled to is haram how?.

As for usury on your hypothesis we are not allowed to use the banking systems in the uk at all, or anywhere really because they are all built on riba.

filling in a form is not the same as begging.

Some benefits are available to everyone regardless of whether its asked for or not i.e child benefit.

What next are milk tokens haram too?

The Scholars or Molvis would be reluctant to agree to this, even if I have included verse exemplar from the Quran, simply because many are themselfs dependent on state benefits, so if they did agree that it is Haram then they would have to forgo the money which they personally asked the government to pay them (nobody in this country is automatically given any money because you have to make a claim for it). Child benefit is not automatic even that has to be claimed for. We are well within our rights to say no to these handouts by not claiming them in the first place, the government would actually appreciate it if the Muslim population put a halt to their dependence because it would save the government millions, as well as making Muslim people look stonger, self-sufficient and able to financially stand up on our own two feet (as the Quran/Hadith clearly state we should do).

The Cambridge Dictionary defines begging as:
"to ask for food or money because you are poor"
Think about it. If you have applied for milk tokens then you are "asking for food because you are poor". Milk tokens are not a gift, it is not like going into your friends house and being served food, it is intended for people who are poor. Likewise, if you are on income support then you are "asking for money because you are poor". By filling in the form you have made it clear that you are in need of money. The Quran is clearly against begging, where in the Quran does it state that we can ask for money which we have not earnt?

Under Islamic law we must pay taxes to the state (Christain or otherwise) for the roads, schools and healthcare which Muslims and their families use on a daily basis. But where in the Quran or Hadith does it say that claiming money which we have not worked for is permissable?

Hahahahah are you telling me yeah that at the time of the khilafah there was no such thing as a welfare system? That people who were unable to work for whatever reason were just left fend for themselves? What use would a state be if it couldn't even look after its own people?

It has already been mentioned by others here that if one was to claim benefits when in actual fact they shouldn't be eligible for it (i.e. Benefit fraud) then it would be haram. As the person would be decieving lying which is haram.

As far as i know though Umar ibn Khattab (RA) was one of the first leaders to implement a benefit system, like child benefits and for people with disablity etc.

There is no evidence for your theory. The only thing you have evidence of is against the people who beg when they are capable of earning for themselves. Like i said, i agree with that. IF you are able to work then the prophet encouraged us to go out and earn with our own hands. With the current situation in the UK it's become very hard for people even with degrees to find work, the unemployment rate is just rising every year.

End of the day claiming benefits and begging is not the same. For example people who are on jobseekers allowance, they have to agree to certain terms and conditions that state they have to be eligibke for work to claim.

Your theory has no valid evidences and is thus considered null and void. May Allah guide us all. Ameen.

During the Islamic Golden Age (well worth researching, not just for this, but for general knowlege of Islamic History), benefits were intended for those who could not afford to eat or drink and the system relied heavily on Zakat payments which were re-distributed accordingly. How many people in Britain do not have access to food or clean water before choosing to sponge from state benefits?

The Umar Ibn Khattab verse which you're referring to is (as best I know) when he said to a parent with her newborn child:
“Tomorrow morning you come to me and I’ll give you the pension or the payment for your newborn child.”

The context of this statement is a time and a land where people who had no food were given adequate provisions by Muslim sovereignty. This was given in order to ensure sustenance and not to 'top-up' other family income or wealth tied-up in houses, cars or family businesses.

Just to repeat,The Cambridge Dictionary defines begging as: "to ask for food or money because you are poor". JSA is not automatically given to every unemployed person because it was created for the poorest people in British society. There are thousands of Middle Class non-Muslim people who choose not to ask for JSA when they're unemployed (many of whom previously only earned an average salary so it's not because they're rich). If a person in this country does not ask for JSA then I do not think that they will starve to death, especially if they already own a house and car(s). A community fund should be established to deal with unemployment if it is really so serious that British-Muslims could starve to death without these hand-outs. British-Jewish people already have similar welfare fund for their own community, so why can't British-Muslims do the same?

Charity which is not Zakat would either be Fitrana or Lillah. By "In the Muslim world ther were" I assume that you're referring to the Islamic Golden Age. The Islamic Golden Age exemplified a revolutionary system of healthcare, you're right it was world leading and it has led to what we now have in this country. I am not critical of universal healthcare beacuse that is not a system which gives money to zamindar people when they ask for it, it is a service which we use when we are ill. The Cambridge Dictionary is a lexicography of the English Language, and this debate is in English, not Urdu or Arabic.

I do not know any people in my region who drink water which has been extracted from a well. Water wells which are intended for community use in this age are most commonly found in parts of Africa where absoloute-poverty is conspicuous. If you are making a reference to the The Islamic Golden Age, then the wells were again intended for use by those who did not otherwise have easy access to clean water. As far as I understand, everyone living in the UK currently has easy access to clean water.

I do not know any people in my region who drink water which has been extracted from a well. Water wells which are intended for community use in this age are most commonly found in parts of Africa where absoloute-poverty is conspicuous. If you are making a reference to the The Islamic Golden Age, then the wells were again intended for use by those who did not otherwise have easy access to clean water. As far as I understand, everyone living in the UK currently has easy access to clean water.

You are deliberately ignoring the issue and not seeing the parallels.

The benefits are specifically designed for the people to use and their use is the same as those wells (if someone who had access to clean water elsewhere would still be blameless for using such communal wells).

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"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

The Cambridge Dictionary is a lexicography of the English Language, and this debate is in English, not Urdu or Arabic.

The hadith you quoted about begging was originally in Arabic, no?
So the definition (if any) you should give, should be of the original arabic word used.
Otherwise you're defining a word which is a translation of another word and the overall meaning could easily be distorted.
Infact, since you are a learned scholar, you must already be able to translate the Arabic for us??

Also, regarding the halaal/haraam money issue you bought up; could you give me your fatwa for a shopkeeper who sells things to people who themselves make their money from rib'ah? Is that money haraam too?

Should all Muslim-run businesses have a sign outside that says 'no bankers, accountants, thieves or pub landlords'.

I didn't know you was scholar and spent time abroad studying under various alim..was one of your teachers Shaykh Google? Sounds like the kind of things you find in his works....

You make a link between Google and Scholar, Google Scholar is used by such people as the name suggests. A scholar could be either be Islamic or secular. You have no hard evidence to say that I am using just Google.

Ya'qub wrote:

knightsbridge_brother wrote:

The Cambridge Dictionary is a lexicography of the English Language, and this debate is in English, not Urdu or Arabic.

The hadith you quoted about begging was originally in Arabic, no?
So the definition (if any) you should give, should be of the original arabic word used.
Otherwise you're defining a word which is a translation of another word and the overall meaning could easily be distorted.
Infact, since you are a learned scholar, you must already be able to translate the Arabic for us??

Also, regarding the halaal/haraam money issue you bought up; could you give me your fatwa for a shopkeeper who sells things to people who themselves make their money from rib'ah? Is that money haraam too?

Should all Muslim-run businesses have a sign outside that says 'no bankers, accountants, thieves or pub landlords'.

I have merely presented a hypothesis and not a Fatwa. In theory, halal earned money should be exchanged for halal goods or services, but in practice this is difficult. History is sprinkled with examples of Arabs who traded with Europeans. Interlinking trade routes across the Afro-Eurasian landmass include the Silk road and Spice route, this form of halal trading brought great wealth to the Abbasid Caliphate. There are examples of PBUH doing business with Jewish people. I am not aware of any hadith which for forbids us from trading with non-Muslims. But I am aware of the fact that begging is not permissable and that taking money which you have not worked for is not permissable, in the context of a country where people here do not starve to death. When a person asks for benefits (nobody is automatically given any money) then they are clearly not purchasing a product or a service.

Some Muslims may own an off licence shop which sells Alcohol,that is there business there only way of earning an income so does that mean what they are buying with that money is Haram or would it be worse if they were on benefits?