Tyranitar being S rank is a ridiculous idea. It's nowhere near as dominant as the S Pokemon we have already, and it gets destroyed by a significant chunk of the metagame without nearly providing support on the level that Politoed or Deoxys-D does. Frankly, Tyranitar is only so good because of the presence of Politoed and Ninetales - without the presence of other weather there would be far less reason to run Tyranitar. For this reason, it should remain A tier.

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Deoxys D is dominant? When is the last time you stepped onto the ladder? And it most certainly provides far more support thatn deoxys. Infinite sand+Getting rid of other weathers >>>>>> than a layer of rocks and one of spikes (maybe).

Tyrannitar's merits as a pokemon are supplementary to the sand it provides; it is most certainly a better poke than poli or ninetalrs, while still providing similar support.

And as mentioned, it serves as a nice way to deal with other whethers, simply by chaanging them. It can double sandslash+stoutland's speed, it can make lando extremely strong, and it can provide a very nice bulk boost to pokes like terrakion (ie... Gene ( in that meta) could no longer ko, it can now take dcalds, etc) plus the residual damage

Deoxys D is dominant? When is the last time you stepped onto the ladder? And it most certainly provides far more support thatn deoxys. Infinite sand+Getting rid of other weathers >>>>>> than a layer of rocks and one of spikes (maybe).

Tyrannitar's merits as a pokemon are supplementary to the sand it provides; it is most certainly a better poke than poli or ninetalrs, while still providing similar support.

And as mentioned, it serves as a nice way to deal with other whethers, simply by chaanging them. It can double sandslash+stoutland's speed, it can make lando extremely strong, and it can provide a very nice bulk boost to pokes like terrakion (ie... Gene ( in that meta) could no longer ko, it can now take dcalds, etc) plus the residual damage

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Deo-D is almost assured SR and at least 1 layer of spikes, while Ttar can only put up SR/Pursuit trap as his team support. He is going to die before the opponent's Politoed, if not because of Dugtrio, because of the fact that he's weak to eeeeeverything that a rain team has. Torn-T can OHKO him, Toed can OHKO him, Keldeo can OHKO him, Dugtrio can OHKO him, Thundurus-T can probably OHKO him. These are the pokes that are running the meta, and he can't stand up to them! Tyranitar for S-rank is out-of-this-world dumb.

1. Chople Berry makes it so Torn-T can't OHKO him; which also means Thundy-T can't as well.2. Choice Banded TTar can OHKO Choice Scarf Politoed's locked into Ice Beam (or Surf; pursuit as they switch), and also destroy both switching Ninetales and pursuit fucks sleeping Torn-T (Breloom is an amazin partner for this). Torn-T can't switch into Banded Stone Edge as well, making it a... check?3. Pursuit support is amazing since it eliminates the Lati twins (making its support amazing for Pokemon like Terrakion or Keldeo who don't necessarily like Latias's ability to wall their fighting STABs. )4. It's ability to break through stall walls with Band (SE 2hkos both Chansey and Skarm) is something Hippo could never brag without lolSand Force.5. It's ability to run a Scarf is something that Hippo can't brag (as it can check non-scarf'd Keldy and Rak).

Just putting these things out there that it isn't complete dead weight vs. Rain. The Band'd Tyranitar's pratically kill everything rain has to offer if it gets a free switch (Superpower takes Ferro / Crunch 2HKOs anything that can't resist / Pursuit traps things that are problematic like sleeping Torn-T or possibly Politoed).

Also, I don't get your point because everything that you mentioned also harms / effects Hippo. Torn-T 2HKOs Hippo after Rocks (I think this even applies to the SDef variant but I'm too lazy to calc so that's up for grabs), so it can KO / HP Ice from Thundy-T 2HKOs (especially if it gets +2 from Nasty Plot) / Specs Toed's Hydro Pump OHKOs (at least Banded Tar outspeeds) / Keldeo can OHKO him. The only exception is Dugtrio, which is a very slight difference considering most rain doesn't run him.

tl;tr: TTar has more merits than your giving credit for. I'm still on and off about the S Tier thing, I think it certainly has a chance for S rank. Looking forward to more discussion on that.

1. Chople Berry makes it so Torn-T can't OHKO him; which also means Thundy-T can't as well.2. Choice Banded TTar can OHKO Choice Scarf Politoed's locked into Ice Beam (or Surf; pursuit as they switch), and also destroy both switching Ninetales and pursuit fucks sleeping Torn-T (Breloom is an amazin partner for this). Torn-T can't switch into Banded Stone Edge as well, making it a... check?3. Pursuit support is amazing since it eliminates the Lati twins (making its support amazing for Pokemon like Terrakion or Keldeo who don't necessarily like Latias's ability to wall their fighting STABs. )4. It's ability to break through stall walls with Band (SE 2hkos both Chansey and Skarm) is something Hippo could never brag without lolSand Force.5. It's ability to run a Scarf is something that Hippo can't brag (as it can check non-scarf'd Keldy and Rak).

Just putting these things out there that it isn't complete dead weight vs. Rain. The Band'd Tyranitar's pratically kill everything rain has to offer if it gets a free switch (Superpower takes Ferro / Crunch 2HKOs anything that can't resist / Pursuit traps things that are problematic like sleeping Torn-T or possibly Politoed).

Also, I don't get your point because everything that you mentioned also harms / effects Hippo. Torn-T 2HKOs Hippo after Rocks (I think this even applies to the SDef variant but I'm too lazy to calc so that's up for grabs), so it can KO / HP Ice from Thundy-T 2HKOs (especially if it gets +2 from Nasty Plot) / Specs Toed's Hydro Pump OHKOs (at least Banded Tar outspeeds) / Keldeo can OHKO him. The only exception is Dugtrio, which is a very slight difference considering most rain doesn't run him.

tl;tr: TTar has more merits than your giving credit for. I'm still on and off about the S Tier thing, I think it certainly has a chance for S rank. Looking forward to more discussion on that.

EDIT:

@ Lord of Bays:

Nice catch. I updated my post.

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1) Chople Ttar also loses out on being actually threatening, and still gets OHKOd through Chople after some U-turn/Volt Switch + hazards damage.
2)I'm not comparing Ttar against Hippo, I'm comparing him to a hypothetical S-rank pokemon. If someone locks themseleves into Ice beam vs a Choice Band Ttar, that player messed up. That has nothing to do with Ttar being S-rank. I'm just saying that it can't safely switch into any of these things. I didn't say Tornadus-T checks Ttar, I'm not retarded, and who in god's name switches Ninetales in on Ttar? If you assume your opponent is always terrible, then yes, Ttar is very good.
3) Pursuit is good for trapping, I already agreed to that. Does it make Ttar S-rank? No.
4) Sooooo, being a slower version of Band Terrakion with worse coverage is the argument for Ttar being S-rank? If that's not true, feel free to correct me, but having a Choice band makes a lot of pokes good wallbreakers, and does not in any way make ttar special, especially when it has so few chances to come in and fire off a free attack since Band Ttar is killed by pretty much all the pokes I listed before.
5) Once again, not saying it's worse than Hippo, just that it's worse than S-rank. Also, Scarf Tyranitar is not even close to being good enough to qualify as a set worthy of pushing a poke into the S tier.

Ttar has merits, I'm not denying it, but in this meta, he's just not nearly as good as he used to be, and definitely not S rank by any definition.

Deo-D is almost assured SR and at least 1 layer of spikes, while Ttar can only put up SR/Pursuit trap as his team support. He is going to die before the opponent's Politoed, if not because of Dugtrio, because of the fact that he's weak to eeeeeverything that a rain team has. Torn-T can OHKO him, Toed can OHKO him, Keldeo can OHKO him, Dugtrio can OHKO him, Thundurus-T can probably OHKO him. These are the pokes that are running the meta, and he can't stand up to them! Tyranitar for S-rank is out-of-this-world dumb.

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What do you mean he can only put up stealth rock or pursuit trap?

Do you not realize he has SAND STREAM???

The thing that MAKES him a top-tier OU threat.

If you /cough/ read any of my posts, you would realize I was not arguing tyrannitar itself as s-tier, I was arguing his ability to summon sandstorm.

Which is FAR more valuable than deoxys' job (who is quite easy to 2hko before it sets up any spikes, and is easily replacable in many teams)

So get over tyrannitar itself and look rather at its ability: sandstream, as well as the fact that tyrannitar isn't a bad pokemon in itself (as opposed to some of the other weather starters).

If you /cough/ read any of my posts, you would realize I was not arguing tyrannitar itself as s-tier, I was arguing his ability to summon sandstorm.

Which is FAR more valuable than deoxys' job (who is quite easy to 2hko before it sets up any spikes, and is easily replacable in many teams)

So get over tyrannitar itself and look rather at its ability: sandstream, as well as the fact that tyrannitar isn't a bad pokemon in itself (as opposed to some of the other weather starters).

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Sand Stream is what makes Tyranitar A-tier; Unnerve Tyranitar is completely useless. All Sand Stream does is make Rock-type Pokemon specially hardier (hit them with one of the tiers many, many Fighting attacks and they'll still crumble), increase the damage done by Pokemon with Sand Force (i.e. Landorus), speed up Pokemon with Sand Rush (i.e. Stoutland and LOL Sandslash), and cancel out Leftovers recovery. Compared to things like Rain and even Sun, Sand is relatively limited in options.

Sand Stream is what makes Tyranitar A-tier; Unnerve Tyranitar is completely useless. All Sand Stream does is make Rock-type Pokemon specially hardier (hit them with one of the tiers many, many Fighting attacks and they'll still crumble), increase the damage done by Pokemon with Sand Force (i.e. Landorus), speed up Pokemon with Sand Rush (i.e. Stoutland and LOL Sandslash), and cancel out Leftovers recovery. Compared to things like Rain and even Sun, Sand is relatively limited in options.

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Speaking of which, moving away from tyrannitar for the time being as you are correct in that, at least in this meta, sand is less potent than rain and sun, I would like to nominate Sandslash for b-tier.

In my opinion, sandslash is a VERY solid b-tier pokemon, and here is why:

Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.

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I find that sandslash fits this role, and even beyond.

-Sandslash is quite the potent sweeper, along the lines of a mini-excadrill, in sand.
-It does not hit as hard as excadrill, but is able to cause quite a large bit of damage (as will be displayed later)
-It has above average physical bulk, allowing it to take priority attacks decently
-It is able to attain perfect coverage with a moveset of earthquake, stone edge, and x-scissor.
-It has 1 greater speed than a nuetral +1 base 100 pokemon when Adamant, meaning that it sits at an extremely nice immediate speed tier, though it is not as difficult to revenge as excadrill
-Sandslash can run rapid spin, freeing up a slot for another pokemon while being able to beat almost all spinblockers

Speaking of which, moving away from tyrannitar for the time being as you are correct in that, at least in this meta, sand is less potent than rain and sun, I would like to nominate Sandslash for b-tier.

In my opinion, sandslash is a VERY solid b-tier pokemon, and here is why:

I find that sandslash fits this role, and even beyond.

-Sandslash is quite the potent sweeper, along the lines of a mini-excadrill, in sand.
-It does not hit as hard as excadrill, but is able to cause quite a large bit of damage (as will be displayed later)
-It has above average physical bulk, allowing it to take priority attacks decently
-It is able to attain perfect coverage with a moveset of earthquake, stone edge, and x-scissor.
-It has 1 greater speed than a nuetral +1 base 100 pokemon when Adamant, meaning that it sits at an extremely nice immediate speed tier, though it is not as difficult to revenge as excadrill
-Sandslash can run rapid spin, freeing up a slot for another pokemon while being able to beat almost all spinblockers

These just showcase sandslash's strength against a few threats. Give it some hazards support and the opponent will be hard pressed to find anything to deal with it midgame!

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My problem lies in that bolded section: outspeeds +1 base 100's. Ordinarily that'd be pretty awesome, but base 100 speed just isn't what it used to be anymore. As far as I'm concerned, if you rely on speed to sweep but can't outspeed +1 base 108's, I don't really have time for you. Keldeo and that Lati twins will easily kill you, either after you score a kill yourself, or as you try and Swords Dance to get a sweep going.

I really like Sandslash, to be honest, but I don't think he has the moxie to be a threat in any way in this metagame, even if those calcs are pretty impressive. He can Rapid Spin, so I guess that's pretty cool for making him a sort of poor man's Sand team Starmie, but I see little use for him outside of that.

My problem lies in that bolded section: outspeeds +1 base 100's. Ordinarily that'd be pretty awesome, but base 100 speed just isn't what it used to be anymore. As far as I'm concerned, if you rely on speed to sweep but can't outspeed +1 base 108's, I don't really have time for you. Keldeo and that Lati twins will easily kill you, either after you score a kill yourself, or as you try and Swords Dance to get a sweep going.

I really like Sandslash, to be honest, but I don't think he has the moxie to be a threat in any way in this metagame, even if those calcs are pretty impressive. He can Rapid Spin, so I guess that's pretty cool for making him a sort of poor man's Sand team Starmie, but I see little use for him outside of that.

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Which is why I support his movement to b tier

Alongside the likes of other "slow" threats like jolteon and stoutland (he definitely deserves the same as stout if anything), and zapdos, and toxicroak

He has a niche and he packs a punch. And requiring only sand support and the elimination of a possible scarfer is not all that much support to ask of a pokemon who can run through teams

He can't quite make it in a-tier, but he is certainly on the same level as many b-tier pokemon

LOL, I guess it's Sandslash discussion Round 2:
Sandslash was originally nominated for D-Tier.
However, PK Gaming felt that Sand Rush, placed our little shrew on a whole new level compared to the other D-Tierers; thus Sandslash went to C.
Now people want to throw Sandslash, who's niche in this meta is Rapid Spinning and possible sweeping under the influence of Sand, into the B-Tier.
Let's see:

Sandslash is quite effective at spinning away hazards when given the right support which basically means Sand. What is his crippling flaw? Nothing jumps out to me really. I could be wrong of course, but looking at Sandslash as a whole, nothing jumps out at me like Volcarona's 4x SR Weakness or something...However, the fact that Sandslash is only reliable under Sand can prevent him from spinning reliably and consistently; the same applies for SD Sweeping.Is Sandslash inferior to other Spinners? Possibly. If Sandteams are looking for a spinner the fact that Sandslash is Ground type will only Compound their Ice/Water/Grass weakness. Starmie can be viewed as a more reliable spinner thanks to the fact that it doesn't need sand and the fact that it doesn't compound Ice/Water Weakness (although Grass compounds...but then again, many Sand Abusers aren't weak to Grass type moves. Plus, Celebi and Ferrothorn are the only real common users of Grass type moves anyways). Starmie is also able to take on most Spinblockers. Jellicents can worn down while Gengars can be smashed with Psyshocks/Psychics.
Starmie actually has a merit over Sandslash. Natural Cure and Recover. This allows Starmie to switch in and out and spin reliably no matter the situation. Sandslash lacks that kind of luxury. So to answer the question: Sandslash is typically inferior to Pokemon in higher Ranks and also has a flaw that prevents it from doing its job consistently.

Overall Sandslash really seems to fall in line with the C-Tier Definition. If you still think he's B-Tier Quality persuade me; otherwise I think Sandslash should stay C-Tier

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I'm not examining him as a spinner, though, moreso as a sweeper. Sandslash's immediate speed and power under sand are almost unmatched, and completely so in b-tier.

I feel as if the sand support rather places him under "can properly fill an offensive niche" of b-tier, or even "can sweep significant something or whatever" of the a-tier (though his other flaws, most notably his speed and complete reliance on sand hold him back from a).

As the calcs I posted previously showed, he is extremely powerful offensively, and his base 100 attack is misleading because of his ability to run adamant without any drawbacks really.

Against offensive teams, he can often 1hko the lot.

Otherwise, he can 2hko gliscor and skarm at +2, allowing him to destroy even defensively oriented teams.

The only thing preventing him from sweeping often is other weather, though pairing him with Gothitelle or Dugtrio or running Dual Sand can mitigate this. Or even allowing the weather starter to switch in, only to be 1hkod by earthquake (no matter what occurs, sandslash is normally able to take out at least 2 pokemon)

Priority is hard pressed to stop him due to his nice physical bulk, giving him further grounds against offensive teams.

Also, here are calcs against virtually everything in ou. There are no rocks involved (so if rocks are up, things like dragonite are 1hkod):

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The calcs were not arguing solely for its placement in a higher tier (as displayed by magnezone and terrakion, etc.)

They serve to show what sandslash beats, as well as what beats it (thus not glorifying it).

In the case of #11, scarf landorus t. ;)

For #18, I believe sandslash outspeeds both of them. (it just misses out on the terrakion bunch and up if im not mistaken in terms of legitimate threats)

#19- in some cases, it comes down to change the weather now and lose the weather war or get swept completely, in which case ninetales could switch in and have something else now revenge kill. The rest serve to show his ability (although obvious) to get past threats to sand like celebi et al.

I feel him and lando do different jobs, though. Lando is best at either a) sheer force sweeping or b) scarf spamming earthquake and functioning as a revenge killer as opposed to an all out sweeper

And in the senses that lando does outclass him, that would be why he is in A rank and slash would be in B. He is not totally outclassed by lando by any means, only in a specific role (ie. immediate power eq spam)

I always felt that Sandslash was outclassed by Stoutland if it wasn't spinning, idk maybe the STAB on EQ makes up for it.

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Stoutland and sandslash are completely different.

Stout cleans up (IF every steel... and rock... and bulky poke... and etc. are gone) late game, and that is one of the only roles he can fill (lol normal stab).

Sandslash sets up and powers through many teams

I suggest trying him @ whoever. The results are much better than they seem on paper

Mhm, I see your point.
First, I just want to let you know that I have played with Sandslash before. It's not garbage (like D-Rank) but...once the novelty wears off, one can see Sandslash is quite the average shrew.

Second, Adamant Sandslash under the Sand hits a max of 458. Scarfed Lando and Thund-T hit 496. This is why Jolly is a preferred nature as it can hit a max of 502. So some of your 2HKOs might turn into 3HKOs or lower.... :/

Third, Scarfed Lando-T is pretty rare haha. But if you see one then hey. There's a kill for ya.

Fourth, hopefully I have got this across to you but Sandslash's inability to OHKO leaves it vunerable to taking massive damage. Not to mention LO Recoil. This means in practicality Sandslash's sweep might not last for so long.....

Fifth, Sandslash is pretty intimidating. However as the analysis says "It's also worth noting that Sandslash, while extremely fast in a sandstorm, can still be outpaced by a good portion of OU, namely Choice Scarf Latios and Starmie, and OHKOed by the appropriate move... In the end, checking Sandslash will boil down to exploiting its mediocre offensive stats. Don't be intimidated by Sandslash's Speed stat as, with the appropriate Pokemon, it can be swiftly brought down through calm and intelligent play."

Finally, I'd like to throw in a little argument for the sand genie. Landorus is more popular with Special LO and Choice Scarf...however his SD sets are still existent. His sets are even more deadlier as Landorus has Sand Force and Life Orb to pack a punch. Better yet, Landorus can use Gravity to smash through, would be Counters. Sadly the shrew lacks such luxury :/

Sandslash has potential....if it were given a bit of a boost. Easy to "gimp", relatively easy to wear down and stall out, short "life-span". All of these factors realllllyyy hurt Sandslash as a sweeper. He definitely is better in practice than on paper (I speak from experience). However, he still just doesn't have it in him to make himself a top-tier threat.

Concerning adamant/jolly:
I see. If anything, it still is faster than the likes of keldeo, terrakion, etc. which certainly has some merit when adamant. :)

By the time sandslash does go out though (midgame/late game) the things it can't ko should be weakened to the point where they are indeed ko-able, something that isn't too difficult in sandstorm after quite a bit of time.

I don't like how it says "a good portion of ou," as I find it misleading. It is outsped by the majority of /scarved/ pokemon, but that is the case with virtually every non-scarved mon! So I don't feel it should be held as too much of a detriment.

While landorus's sd set is stronger, it, unlike sandslash, is outsped by a good portion of NON scarved mons, making it very difficult to run in this meta (though against defensive teams, it works wonders)

And finally, try not to get involved with picturing him as a top-tier threat, because that isn't what I'm trying to portray him as. I'm trying to put him alongside the likes of toxicroak and zapdos and co. (very obviously not top-tier threats!), not in the a or s tiers. ^_^

I think that Zapdos should move down to C-Tier. It's just a specialized check to Tornadus-T that gets destroyed by pretty much every other relevant special attacker. I guess it also checks Scizor, but there are better checks to the most commonly seen Pokemon in OU than Zapdos.

I think that Zapdos should move down to C-Tier. It's just a specialized check to Tornadus-T that gets destroyed by pretty much every other relevant special attacker. I guess it also checks Scizor, but there are better checks to the most commonly seen Pokemon in OU than Zapdos.

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Ok, I'm seriously tired of people talking shit about Zapdos. No one even considered him a bad poke until people started arguing about him on the suspect thread. Zapdos is by no means a bad mon, and when it receives Lightningrod it will be even more solid.

Ok, I'm seriously tired of people talking shit about Zapdos. No one even considered him a bad poke until people started arguing about him on the suspect thread. Zapdos is by no means a bad mon, and when it receives Lightningrod it will be even more solid.

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The problem with Zapdos is that although it is a solid Pokemon overall, it's outclassed by other Pokemon in OU in its main roles. As a Special sweeper, Thundurus-T is more efficient with a much higher Special Attack stat, 1 more point in base Speed that is very crucial in outspeeding the numerous Pokemon sitting at base 100 Speed, and access to Nasty Plot which sends his Special Attack soaring, being able to 2HKO Blissey with some hazards down. As a Specially Defensive wall and primary check to Tornadus-T, Jirachi and Rotom-W outperform Zapdos in this role. Jirachi has many more resistances than Zapdos and access to Stealth Rock and Wish to support the rest of the team. Rotom-W has only one weakness that is not a very common attacking type (Grass), better checks Rain teams than Zapdos does due to a resistance to Water type attacks, and can more freely abuse Volt Switch as he does not have a Stealth Rock weakness. Rotom-W can usually handle Scizor as well, due to 4x resistance to Bullet Punch and being able to outspeed Scizor and hit the bug with Hydro Pump or cripple it with Will-o-Wisp before it can U-turn. As a Physical wall, Landorus-T outclasses Zapdos with its Intimidate ability and ability to also check Terrakion. Zapdos is a great Pokemon, but typically there are other Pokemon that can perform the role Zapdos is performing more effectively.

S Rank:Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

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Just a little nitpick here, but since Keldeo is a suspect this round shouldn't it be S-rank? Cuz right now the tier definitions do not coincide with the current suspect test.

IMO, Keldeo doesn't deserve its suspect status and chances are it's not going to be banned. Torn-T has a good chance of moving up to Ubers, but Keldeo is just a special variant of Terrakion (that gains a massive boost in Rain) and has reliable checks/counters in Lati@s, Jellicent, etc. I like Keldeo where it is, and there's no point in moving it to S-Tier simply because of it being suspect.

While I think almost all of us don't think Keldeo is broken what-so-ever, it is still an amazing attacker and an absolute monster under the rain, the specs set even has a tiny chance to 2HKO its counters like Celebi and Amoonguss with hydropump in the rain. Now that's power. The scarf set can give offensive teams problems, and the calm mind and specs set screw over any defensive team without a direct counter. Again, I don't think its anywhere near broken, but it certainly is a force to reckon with. It may be S-tier worthy in its own right ignoring its current suspect status.

I agree Keldeo, however, Hippowdon is not S-Tier material. It is washed away by the Water-type attacks running around, it either has bad special bulk or worse physical bulk that don't let it counter things like Terrakion as effectively (this depends on where you invest EVs), and it lacks the same offensive presence that Tyranitar has. While it's true that Hippowdon hits very hard for a wall, unfortunately there are many things immune to Earthquake these days. Although Hippowdon has reliable recovery, and doesn't care about Dugtrio unlike Tyranitar, Hippowdon unfortunately has some flaws that prevent him from being solid S-Tier.

I actually brought this topic up the second I heard he was a suspect, and I forget what three users it was, but they all completely shutdown the idea of Keldeo being S-tier worthy. I think its at least viable since Keldeo hits like a truck on both sides offensively, only needs rain to perform at full capacity (which isn't even necessary; just overkill sometimes), and is for the most part the special version of Terrakion. The only thing holding Keldeo back is the fact it doesn't have anything to increase it's speed outside of a Choice Scarf unlike Terrakion.