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No-mah ain't Bett-ah!

If last season's playoffs didn't prove it, then recent play certainly has. Nomar Garciaparra is but a shadow of his former self, and Derek Jeter is playing like he always does - with drive, leadership, and verve. Not to mention great talent and a masterful understanding of the game.

I like Nomar as a player. But he's just left off from last September. He looks lost at SS and uncomfortable behind the plate.
I do think he's still an elite shortstop, but he's not what he used to be. Boston isn't making things better for him: Nomar takes a beating in the press, fans are down on him and now more trade rumors swirling around. Nomar's gone. He knows it. Hard for him to play when he's thinking about what is going to happen to him tommorow.

That said, I like Jeter better (YES, Yankee bias)--Jeter's D is fine, though not iron clad; his bat is hot right now, and more than anything, he's tough. He didn't cave under his big slump early in the season. He always battles through.

I honestly think Nomar has begun to decline ever since he injured his wrist about 2 years ago.. That imjury sidelined him for about 1/2 the season and his power numbers have been down ever since then! Jeter is stronger than ever. Nomar was once the better SS but no more.

Originally posted by Arod for President I honestly think Nomar has begun to decline ever since he injured his wrist about 2 years ago.. That imjury sidelined him for about 1/2 the season and his power numbers have been down ever since then! Jeter is stronger than ever. Nomar was once the better SS but no more.

Agreed. And the stats indicate he isn't the same player ever since that injury.

“I mean, people knew that Brown was out there, and that Randy was ornery all the time. And Pavano is whoever he is. But if you’re their manager, you can’t go out and write about them like that.”

Nomar takes a beating in the press, fans are down on him and now more trade rumors swirling around. Nomar's gone. He knows it. Hard for him to play when he's thinking about what is going to happen to him tommorow.

You are correct with everything you wrote but in my opinion, that is no excuse to not (dare, I say) "cowboy up". While I am sure it's much easier said then done, I would think he'd want to play better, despite his feelings regarding Boston, because it only makes him more lucrative to other teams, which I'm sure is something he would want. I've always liked Nomar, but I feel he has disappointed some of his fans with his recent behavior and they now have come to resent him more than feel sorry for his situation.

Anybody notice that Nomah went 0-fer-4 yesterday? All I can say is that while I like him, come crunch time, the tough git goin' and Nomah didn't do that.

Since he's the top-rated farmhand, I would think that there'd be no doubts that Pokey would've at least done a better job. Right now, lots of plays, Pokey could've had them.

With this .235 BA, I'll agree that this is his ST. However, when Jeter had a Godawful beginning, at least he didn't make E6 after E6 in consecutive games.

Unless he stops throwing the ball wide and picks up his offensive numbers considerably, I can't consider him elite right now. In fact, in a deciding game, I'd presently much rather have Pokey in there, to at least avert the booted misplays.

Originally posted by Jersey Yankee With this .235 BA, I'll agree that this is his ST. However, when Jeter had a Godawful beginning, at least he didn't make E6 after E6 in consecutive games.

Not to be an apologist for Nomar but Jeter's awful slump came at a time when there was relatively little pressure on the Yanks. It was the beginning of the season and Posada was carrying the team.

Nomar's spring training is happening right in the midst of a (for the Sox) tight race, right before the All-Star break and his team hasn't done much to help him out. First, they wanted to trade him and second, the level of play around him hasn't exactly bailed him out.

This is some pretty ridiculous stuff. The guy's been back for maybe 15 games? Look how Jeter was doing in mid June and how he's doing now, and think for a moment.

(And btw, for those of you who are commenting re Nomar at the plate, I'm assuming you haven;t seen every one of his ABs since returning. His numbers are not good, and yes, last night he went 0-4. Maybe you failed to notice last night that he actually hit 3 or 4 balls very well. He has generally been hitting the ball well, just not getting many breaks.)

Originally posted by penfold Not to be an apologist for Nomar but Jeter's awful slump came at a time when there was relatively little pressure on the Yanks. It was the beginning of the season and Posada was carrying the team.

Nomar's spring training is happening right in the midst of a (for the Sox) tight race, right before the All-Star break and his team hasn't done much to help him out. First, they wanted to trade him and second, the level of play around him hasn't exactly bailed him out.

It's a tough situation for Nomar.

I have no problem accepting your points. However, I still can't understand how one's defense takes a slump? Batting, such as chasing stuff hitting the dirt, I can understand, but why the frequent boots?

I can see what you're saying about more pressure, but Jeter still played Boston during a slump. That same series, many Boston fans referred to as them beating the Yanks 6-1.

As to Posada carrying the team, well, what's Ortiz doing right now? Last season, coming off a separated shoulder, Jeter went right back into the thick of things, didn't boot tons (AFAIK), and calmed those who'd seen the SS pretenders booting the ball & GIDP'd out there.

For trades, I can understand that. Heck, it wasn't like they'd wanted a bag of day-old donuts in return (Maggs & A-Rod are top stuff), but I can reason *SOMEWHAT* w/his reaction of them wanting to trade him. However, had he accepted that $60m/4 yr offer, that would never have happened.

As to the level of play around him, hey, guess who's made most of those boots?

Ortiz also factored in an error by Nomar Garciaparra that contributed to the Yankees scoring the decisive run. Ortiz was unable to handle the shortstop's throw on a ground single by Kenny Lofton leading off the bottom of the eighth inning. Garciaparra's miscue, his third in the series, allowed Lofton to reach second.

"It's a play I know I've made in the past, where you go deep to the right," Garciaparra said. "I just threw it over and tried to make a play and it didn't work out."

It's the sloppy play, tons of LOBs, lust f/OBP but not getting those guys home which kill them. Since he was expected to contribute to curing this, I have no idea why his mates are expected to do this. He came back, he was expected to offer a positive impact. He's not doing so.

Yeah, it's tough. So long as he expects to be considered an elite SS, he should demonstrate what he can do on the field. He does this, what his mates, fans, media, boogeyman, Mia or whoever won't really factor into this much, AFAIK.

Originally posted by cubswin This is some pretty ridiculous stuff. The guy's been back for maybe 15 games? Look how Jeter was doing in mid June and how he's doing now, and think for a moment.

(And btw, for those of you who are commenting re Nomar at the plate, I'm assuming you haven;t seen every one of his ABs since returning. His numbers are not good, and yes, last night he went 0-4. Maybe you failed to notice last night that he actually hit 3 or 4 balls very well. He has generally been hitting the ball well, just not getting many breaks.)

What about the boots? Did Jeter make tons of boots earlier this season? Nomah's miscues have been a big factor in these last two Boston losses.

Like I indicated (but didn't say directly), 0-for-4 I can forgive, but all those boots shouldn't come from someone who's supposed to be "elite". If he makes any more boots in today's (Thursday's) game, I think that should speak f/itself, regardless of what he does at the plate.

Originally posted by Jersey Yankee I have no problem accepting your points. However, I still can't understand how one's defense takes a slump? Batting, such as chasing stuff hitting the dirt, I can understand, but why the frequent boots?

Yeah, I know he's an elite athlete and all but haven't you ever just had one of those days? Which seems to turn into one of those months? If you haven't, I envy you.

Part of it could just be that, in his heart of hearts, he doesn't want to put his all-out into playing for the Sox any more. That would certainly help explain things. But I don't know Nomar well enough to figure out exactly why he's got the yips now. For his sake, I hope he doesn't turn into a latter-day Chuck Knoblauch (and I liked Chuck, too!)

Originally posted by Jersey Yankee What about the boots? Did Jeter make tons of boots earlier this season? Nomah's miscues have been a big factor in these last two Boston losses.

Like I indicated (but didn't say directly), 0-for-4 I can forgive, but all those boots shouldn't come from someone who's supposed to be "elite". If he makes any more boots in today's (Thursday's) game, I think that should speak f/itself, regardless of what he does at the plate.

You're the one who made a comment about going 0-4 as meaning he doesn't show up in crunch time. And my comment wasn't about those 3 Yankees per se -- it was illustrating that 1 gamne does not reflect a player's value or capabilities. (I think I made this clear in my post: "...That's meaningless.")

Tonight's game won't determine anything, either, except how he's playing right now. Talk to me at the end of the year.

Originally posted by penfold Yeah, I know he's an elite athlete and all but haven't you ever just had one of those days? Which seems to turn into one of those months? If you haven't, I envy you.

Part of it could just be that, in his heart of hearts, he doesn't want to put his all-out into playing for the Sox any more. That would certainly help explain things. But I don't know Nomar well enough to figure out exactly why he's got the yips now. For his sake, I hope he doesn't turn into a latter-day Chuck Knoblauch (and I liked Chuck, too!)

So an important series like this, he can make errors and he gets a free pass? Why all the buildup about this series then if he can just do whatever?

If he doesn't want to play, then I think he's in big trouble. Being unable to figure something out is forgiven. Just not wanting to do it, I can't see any justification in this.

I think Mantle's dad told him to come on home, since he didn't have it in him to be a ballplayer. Mickey took that and determined he was going to tough it out. I'm not saying that Nomah has to be Mickey, but I still expect him to be playing well.

Originally posted by cubswin You're the one who made a comment about going 0-4 as meaning he doesn't show up in crunch time. And my comment wasn't about those 3 Yankees per se -- it was illustrating that 1 gamne does not reflect a player's value or capabilities. (I think I made this clear in my post: "...That's meaningless.")

Tonight's game won't determine anything, either, except how he's playing right now. Talk to me at the end of the year.

Me thinks that his 3 boots in only 2 days (both of which factored heavily into this loss) *PLUS* yesterday's 0-for-4 showed me he didn't really show up.

As to those three Yanks, can you please name one who's 0-fer hurt the Yanks? Even the Boston Globe mentioned Nomah's boots as factoring into the loss.

This thread was about the last two games, since that's all we have to go by. If he manages to redeem himself, I'll give him credit. However, if he boots another play which factors into a loss, I think that should speak f/itself as to his recent play. It's not like I can discuss his future or past play, so current play seems fine by me.

I guess I'll have to wait until late September before making comments about Nomah? I guess nobody should dare criticize him until then, huh? Interesting. I guess if he has an awesome series, we'll also have to wait until late September before posting an opinion on him?

Originally posted by Jersey Yankee So an important series like this, he can make errors and he gets a free pass? Why all the buildup about this series then if he can just do whatever?

If he doesn't want to play, then I think he's in big trouble. Being unable to figure something out is forgiven. Just not wanting to do it, I can't see any justification in this.

I think Mantle's dad told him to come on home, since he didn't have it in him to be a ballplayer. Mickey took that and determined he was going to tough it out. I'm not saying that Nomah has to be Mickey, but I still expect him to be playing well.

I didn't say a free pass. All I'm saying, and I think it's pretty simple, is that no player can be judged on 15, let alone 2, games. If hits GW HRs tonight and in each game of the next series, is he suddenly the best player in the game? Was Jeter a terrible player in April, whn he was awful against the SOx? Is he now the best player in history b/c he has put up great June #s?

Originally posted by Jersey Yankee So an important series like this, he can make errors and he gets a free pass? Why all the buildup about this series then if he can just do whatever?

Baseball's a game of failure. The best hitters can only get on base 1 out of every 3 times. Those errors go on the back of Nomar's baseball card. He doesn't get a free pass. He also doesn't deserve to get a new one ripped for him just because he committed those errors. If he continues to suck as badly as he does now (which I doubt), he'll end up as the discount SS on the Tigers or D-Rays and then be out of baseball in a couple years.

Perspective: Soriano's a wonderful player. But didn't you always think that it was an adventure any time a ball was hit toward second?

It's Nomar's spring training; therefore, I'm not going to rag on him for his errors or for his B.A. If he still sucks in September, then I'll hope that the Yanks or the Dodgers can sign him in the off-season for a discount rate.

Originally posted by Jersey Yankee ... Even the Boston Globe mentioned Nomah's boots as factoring into the loss....

This thread was about the last two games, since that's all we have to go by.

I guess I'll have to wait until late September before making an analysis of Nomah? I guess nobody should dare criticize him until then, huh? Interesting.

Of course they factored into the loss. Did I ever question that?

This thread is not about the alst 2 games, and it is not "all we have to go by."

Nothing wrong w/critiquing/analyzing, but that's not all you did. You were trying to assess his status among the league's "elite." Does the elite change game to game? Week to week? Sorry, I don;t have the same knee-jerk type response many fans do. Maybe you and I just differ that way.

Originally posted by cubswin I didn't say a free pass. All I'm saying, and I think it's pretty simple, is that no player can be judged on 15, let alone 2, games. If hits GW HRs tonight and in each game of the next series, is he suddenly the best player in the game? Was Jeter a terrible player in April, whn he was awful against the SOx? Is he now the best player in history b/c he has put up great June #s?

All you can say about Nomar right now is that he isn't playing well.

OK, I'll give him some more leniency, but only on the offense. Like I'd mentioned before, defensive miscues I personally find inexcusable. I'm not changing that.

As I'd already made clear, it wasn't the 0-fer, but the boots I was more concerned with.

If he continues with this, he shouldn't expect much leniency, and I don't think I need to wait until the end of the season before having an opinion on this.

Originally posted by cubswin Of course they factored into the loss. Did I ever question that?

This thread is not about the alst 2 games, and it is not "all we have to go by."

Nothing wrong w/critiquing/analyzing, but that's not all you did. You were trying to assess his status among the league's "elite." Does the elite change game to game? Week to week? Sorry, I don;t have the same knee-jerk type response many fans do. Maybe you and I just differ that way.

Oh please, you and this putting yourself about Yankee fans is getting old. I'm used to this by now.

I wasn't being knee-jerk. I just called 'em as I saw 'em and he definitely needs to play much better than this. Had he played better this series, then this thread likely wouldn't have been created. Check the thread's title for a mild hint. That's all I'm saying.