Insulating in-wall/in-ceiling speakers - Home Energy Pros2016-12-09T17:38:17Zhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/insulating-in-wall-in-ceiling-speakers?commentId=6069565%3AComment%3A129585&feed=yes&xn_auth=nogood point on the dancing.
m…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-08-09:6069565:Comment:1321362013-08-09T15:08:10.362ZPat Dundonhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/Patdundon
<p>good point on the dancing. </p>
<p>my only concern is that folks dont get the impression there are fire safe foam's out there. if you ignite an piece of FS 25 foam and take the flame source away, the foam will self extinguish. But, the tech data sheets the foam manufacturers provide will have footnotes saying their foam requires a 15 minute thermal barrier between the foam and the people. that's becasue foam has a low self ignition temperaturte, and it is very good at holding heat in. it…</p>
<p>good point on the dancing. </p>
<p>my only concern is that folks dont get the impression there are fire safe foam's out there. if you ignite an piece of FS 25 foam and take the flame source away, the foam will self extinguish. But, the tech data sheets the foam manufacturers provide will have footnotes saying their foam requires a 15 minute thermal barrier between the foam and the people. that's becasue foam has a low self ignition temperaturte, and it is very good at holding heat in. it doesn't take long for foam to burn when it is exposed to heat in excess of 450 degrees. </p> From techstreet -- holder of…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-08-08:6069565:Comment:1317802013-08-08T22:54:25.966ZDennis Heidnerhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DennisHeidner
<p>From techstreet -- holder of some of the UL documents.... about UL-1715</p>
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<p>"<span>This test method is intended for use in the evaluation of the flammability contribution of wall materia l assemblies, ceiling material assemblies, or both, exposed to early fire growth under specified room fir e exposure conditions. The effectiveness of fire barrier materials as protection for other combustible materials or components within the assembly is of primary interest for this…</span></p>
<p>From techstreet -- holder of some of the UL documents.... about UL-1715</p>
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<p>"<span>This test method is intended for use in the evaluation of the flammability contribution of wall materia l assemblies, ceiling material assemblies, or both, exposed to early fire growth under specified room fir e exposure conditions. The effectiveness of fire barrier materials as protection for other combustible materials or components within the assembly is of primary interest for this evaluation."</span></p>
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<p><span>The point of suggesting to look for UL1715 and the ASTM numbers is that it might be that other good building materials would be found that could do a better job for John. That was the reason for suggesting keywords for searches.</span></p>
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<p><span>The Tenmat hats themselves provide the flame spread, the fire stop foams/sealants, just cover the cases where flames might seep under the hats and into the attic. They also stop the hats from rattling and dancing around in the attic when loud rock and roll is played :-)</span></p> UL1715 is a room fire test. …tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-08-08:6069565:Comment:1318832013-08-08T22:45:13.615ZPat Dundonhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/Patdundon
<p>UL1715 is a room fire test. I don't know how applicable it is to sealing penetrations in otherwise fire resistant assemblies. failure is indicated by fire escaping the room by penetrating walls or ceiling, or through the doorway in under 15 minutes. </p>
<p>ASTM E 84 is the flame spread test. It is limited in its validity for spray foam because spray foam has a relatively low self ignition temperature. If you run an ASTM E84 test, you are testing surface burning characteristics, but in a…</p>
<p>UL1715 is a room fire test. I don't know how applicable it is to sealing penetrations in otherwise fire resistant assemblies. failure is indicated by fire escaping the room by penetrating walls or ceiling, or through the doorway in under 15 minutes. </p>
<p>ASTM E 84 is the flame spread test. It is limited in its validity for spray foam because spray foam has a relatively low self ignition temperature. If you run an ASTM E84 test, you are testing surface burning characteristics, but in a building lined with foam, the foam holds the heat in very well (as always). when the foam reaches ignition temperature you get flashover. That is why the requirement for thermal barrier. Again how applicable is that test to penetrations in otherwise fire resistant systems?</p>
<p>I could not find UL94, and did not see it indicated on data sheets I have for spray foam. </p>
<p> </p> The reason for using the seal…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-08-08:6069565:Comment:1319482013-08-08T22:41:20.374ZDennis Heidnerhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DennisHeidner
<p>The reason for using the sealant and foam ontop of the Tenmat hat is to address air leaks. In some AHJ even low voltage wiring for stereos can be subject to inspection if they move between walls and attics. It easier just to fire resistant stuff (nice orange color) and if any work on the house is inspected - most of the inspectors don't question the orange foam around speaker boxes -- because it would meet local firecodes. Speakers in ceilings and walls can be fire code violations - but…</p>
<p>The reason for using the sealant and foam ontop of the Tenmat hat is to address air leaks. In some AHJ even low voltage wiring for stereos can be subject to inspection if they move between walls and attics. It easier just to fire resistant stuff (nice orange color) and if any work on the house is inspected - most of the inspectors don't question the orange foam around speaker boxes -- because it would meet local firecodes. Speakers in ceilings and walls can be fire code violations - but the right kind of boxes and sealing solves those problems.</p>
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<p>Foaming over the Tenmat might be overkill - but it does cut down the air leaks through the hats, it does add insulation value, and it makes the Tenmat hats a little more rigid.</p>
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<p>John could build boxes out of plywood also - 3/4" plywood with minimal rock wool inside would also probably meet flame spread rules. </p>
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<p>John already has the speakers installed so at this point it is what is easiest, least cost, safest and stops air leaks...</p>
<p></p> I understand the reasoning of…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-08-08:6069565:Comment:1318812013-08-08T22:12:23.326ZPat Dundonhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/Patdundon
I understand the reasoning of sealing the leaks, but I am not sure the products have any performance advantage. Everyone looks for marketing advantages. Some cold application (DIY) foams are FS75 materials, so if that manufacturer sells a FS25 material it will be more flme resistant than their base material. They would market that as 'flame resistant' but not say 'if compared to FS75 foam'. Flame Spread 25 foam still requires a thermal barrier. It cannot be part of a fire protection system. It…
I understand the reasoning of sealing the leaks, but I am not sure the products have any performance advantage. Everyone looks for marketing advantages. Some cold application (DIY) foams are FS75 materials, so if that manufacturer sells a FS25 material it will be more flme resistant than their base material. They would market that as 'flame resistant' but not say 'if compared to FS75 foam'. Flame Spread 25 foam still requires a thermal barrier. It cannot be part of a fire protection system. It would be a great contributor to the airsealing package though. Time is always limited, but I will look into this further. Thanks to all who responded t…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-08-08:6069565:Comment:1320162013-08-08T21:47:08.572ZJohn Harperhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JohnHarper
<p>Thanks to all who responded to my queries. I believe I am now on the right path to seal my speakers and some can-lights without encouraging fires, fire chimneys, and poor speaker output. Thanks again! John </p>
<p>Thanks to all who responded to my queries. I believe I am now on the right path to seal my speakers and some can-lights without encouraging fires, fire chimneys, and poor speaker output. Thanks again! John </p> There are quite a few differe…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-08-08:6069565:Comment:1320152013-08-08T21:31:22.109ZDennis Heidnerhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DennisHeidner
<p>There are quite a few different products available, Touch'n Foam offers FireBreak. Most trade supply stores will have them available. Code often requires the gaps around wires and pipes to be sealed. And you want to seal them to slow air leaks.</p>
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<p>Generally you are looking for stuff that meets the UL-1715, UL94, or various ASTM codes.</p>
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<p>You can find hits by using phrase "flame resistant foam sealant" in a google search. </p>
<p>There are quite a few different products available, Touch'n Foam offers FireBreak. Most trade supply stores will have them available. Code often requires the gaps around wires and pipes to be sealed. And you want to seal them to slow air leaks.</p>
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<p>Generally you are looking for stuff that meets the UL-1715, UL94, or various ASTM codes.</p>
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<p>You can find hits by using phrase "flame resistant foam sealant" in a google search. </p> Can you give me a link for th…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-08-08:6069565:Comment:1317252013-08-08T12:17:42.847ZPat Dundonhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/Patdundon
Can you give me a link for the fire resistant and intumescent products you are referring to? Do you know what specifications or tests they have passed? Most foam used as wall foam in houses today is flame spread 25, smoke less than 450. A few are flame spread 75. There is no good reason to use the FS75 materials given the availability of the FS25 materials. I wonder If the products you are using have no performance advantage over an FS25 foam?<br />
All of the FS25 foams require a Thermal Barrier…
Can you give me a link for the fire resistant and intumescent products you are referring to? Do you know what specifications or tests they have passed? Most foam used as wall foam in houses today is flame spread 25, smoke less than 450. A few are flame spread 75. There is no good reason to use the FS75 materials given the availability of the FS25 materials. I wonder If the products you are using have no performance advantage over an FS25 foam?<br />
All of the FS25 foams require a Thermal Barrier (1/2 inch gypsum board or equal) between them and living space. A TenMat is made of rock wool and it is 1/2 inch thick. I don't know of any testing saying they are, or are not as good as gypsum board, but I have seen multiple applications where the assembly of the gypsum box is questionable due to framing or wiring interrupting the box. The TenMats are much more adaptable. Dan,
I read your response a c…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-08-08:6069565:Comment:1313952013-08-08T05:07:37.222ZJohn Harperhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JohnHarper
<p>Dan,</p>
<p>I read your response a couple of days ago and responded but must have missed the send button?!?!? And thus I re-read it and noted that you mentioned fire resistance which really caught my eye after reading Dennis's response. I shall ask the CanCoverIt folks what their fire resistance specs are but am not optimistic as I read nothing about fire resistance on their site but they tout their products as being air-tight so I may be partway there. Backer board seems like a great idea…</p>
<p>Dan,</p>
<p>I read your response a couple of days ago and responded but must have missed the send button?!?!? And thus I re-read it and noted that you mentioned fire resistance which really caught my eye after reading Dennis's response. I shall ask the CanCoverIt folks what their fire resistance specs are but am not optimistic as I read nothing about fire resistance on their site but they tout their products as being air-tight so I may be partway there. Backer board seems like a great idea as it should be pretty dense, no? And I figure I can build the boxes you suggested for the ceiling speakers about 15' x 15" x 15" which would come pretty close to 2 cu. ft. I can do this as well for the wall speakers that back into attic space but have a couple that are in between walls so boxes will not work there. </p> Look for large recessed can c…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-08-08:6069565:Comment:1315772013-08-08T04:40:52.819ZDennis Heidnerhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DennisHeidner
<p>Look for large recessed can covers that are fire proof. Tenmat makes some. They might even be the perfect size for the speakers.</p>
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<p><a href="http://www.recessedlightcover.com/pdf/TenmatCatalog2011.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.recessedlightcover.com/pdf/TenmatCatalog2011.pdf</a></p>
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<p>Also use a firestop foam or sealant.…</p>
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<p>Look for large recessed can covers that are fire proof. Tenmat makes some. They might even be the perfect size for the speakers.</p>
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<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.recessedlightcover.com/pdf/TenmatCatalog2011.pdf">http://www.recessedlightcover.com/pdf/TenmatCatalog2011.pdf</a></p>
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<p>Also use a firestop foam or sealant.</p>
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<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.hilti.com/holcom/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?&amp;nodeId=-16091&amp;selProdOid=15593">http://www.hilti.com/holcom/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.js...</a></p>
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<p>There are lots of firestop products on the market. For small installations like the speakers, buying small cans or tubes is a better deal.</p>
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<p>I had looked at them about three or four years ago when I was trying to decide if I was going to just protect the old 1960's recessed cans in my house... try to make them air tight and safe for insulation. In the end it was just easier to vacuum out the old insulation and replace with cans that were rated for air tight / incontact... </p>
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<p>Don Hynek alluded to Tenmat in his earlier post. If you are trying to air seal, glue down the Tenmats with a intumescent sealant, then once set you can foam them in with an intumescent expanding foam -- common for use around pipes...</p>