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How are you still on this? Its not about HOW MUCH MONEY YOU SPEND. Jesus dude, you've gotta be the densest guy on these boards. We've put up data on which teams win the world series based on payroll rankings. We've put up data showing that there's a good chance that Hamilton began his decline this past year and is in no way worth the money he signed for. We've shown how as good as Greinke is, he's just not a #1 starter and shouldn't be paid as such. We are all in agreement that we don't want to trade Profar or Andrus to get Upton, which is what the DBacks want (trust me, if Olt package was enough, Upton would be a Ranger tomorrow). Same theory goes for RA Dickey for whom the Blue Jays overpaid for. I mean what more evidence do you WANT?

The team has money but JD wants to spend it wisely. I don't blame him. There are a lot of kids in the minors ready to contribute and its also wise to have the patience to let your system produce talent. Give Gentry and Martin a shot. Give Olt a shot at first. See what Perez and Scheppers can really do. Hell, even let Bourbon get some MLB at bats. I understand that a lot of players seem to have simply slipped through the Rangers fingers and I agree, Greinke would have been a great addition. But I'll be very happy when this team is financially healthy and competitive while the Angels are suffocating under their "investments". Just relax, be patient and be happy.

Sigh.

IT'S NOT ABOUT MONEY. IT'S ABOUT ACQUIRING YOUR NEEDS.

I couldn't give two craps if we want to play "moneyball" and make cheap trades to acquire a legit ace and superior pitching. Go for it. Unfortunately, this front office doesn't seem to be willing to part with talent to obtain talent. They want to go the low-risk route, which has produced such "successes" as Jason Jennings, Rich Harden, Brandon Webb, Brandon McCarthy and Roy Oswalt. You want to keep regurgitating the old argument that money doesn't win championships?? How about recognizing the argument that recycled players hasn't worked??

Next, people want to praise the "farm system". Oh, the mighty farm system! Where the **** is the ace that it has produced?

"Now stipe1280, give it more time..."

Once it was DVD, then it was Martin Perez would be an ace. We once traded one of our best farm pieces (Smoak) for an ace...then failed to re-sign him in the offseason...oops.

So how else do you suppose we go about acquiring the thing we've needed most?

"Now stipe1280, I believe Yu Darvish will become an ace..."

Believe and will all you want, but until HE DOES, he's not one. Everyone wants to point to the Giants now as a success model. Well, they HAVE an ace and if Lincecum rebounds, they'll have 2. Bumgarner isn't far off either.

So back to my point...how do you acquire what you need? The Rays aren't exactly chomping at the bit to unload Price, despite what all the Ranger homers out there are hoping. There isn't a great international pitcher out there to sign. The farm isn't ready to produce an ace and despite all the Ranger homers hopes that rest on the Buckel's of the world, guys like him, just like DVD just might not work out (*shocked face*). So now what?

FREE AGENCY

"Well that's all fine and well, but guys like Greinke are being paid too much money."

Too much money? Is it coming out of your pocket? Well, in a sense it is. You buy tickets don't you? How about a hat or $7 beer at the game? And just how is that money being used? (You do realize it IS being used right? We've had 3 stadium upgrades in as many years...stadium upgrades that improve the stadium...that improve the owners investment.)

Well, it's been used to overpay Scott Feldman in the past. It was used to overpay Michael Young. But now, all of a sudden, we're worried about "overpaying" to fill one of our needs???

What free agent isn't "overpaid"? Here's the thing though...is Pierzynski and Soria going to make this team a better team than one with Hamilton or Greinke? Pffft. What a stupid question. Of course not. Especially not after you let a huge hunk of your veteran guys go elsewhere.

So who ****ing cares if your team is spending $130m/yr. (which they can afford with increased attendances, two long playoff runs in 3 years and a massive TV deal on the horizon)? So what if a $90m/yr. payroll is more than a lot of other teams? We're not the Rays...we don't have a David Price. If you have an ace/superior pitching, you can afford to have a lesser payroll.

Some of you Ranger homers out there want to just "trust the system" and "hope and believe we can win". Terrific. But let me ask you this....

Just how many titles have the Tampa Bay Rays won with their system?

You guys rest on the low-risk crap, but for those of us who see this team as the post-Hicks team that can afford to do more than they're doing to INCREASE THE ODDS AT WINNING, don't lecture me on what could happen and cite teams that have done more with less, when those teams don't resemble the product we have in front of us in the least.

Point 1: Greinke is not an ace. He is a solid #2. His 2009 year was incredible and he deserved his Cy Young, unfortunately he's never posted a WAR above 6 since, let alone 9. He's a very good defender for his position and has played for a good defensive team in the Royals which actually inflates his WAR. But if you use strictly pitching metrics (xFIP, ERA+, ERA-), he's actually outside of the top 6-7 guys you would consider true aces. This is a guy who makes more money than any righty in the history of the game. Think about it.

Point 2: Josh Hamilton's contract with the Angels is an albatross. I won't say much here because I think we all agree that getting Josh back at that price is ridiculous. He's just not worth it. Last year there were some pretty clear red flags about his game, like career high strikeout rate and league worst pitch recognition (resulting in the most swing misses in the majors).

Point 3: Justin Upton is not available without Andrus or Profar included in the package. I think this move is lateral because Andrus and Profar in the middle of the infield are probably the leagues best defensive tandem and will make our pitching look that much better (only Darvish misses a lot of bats) since most of our guys pitch to contact. Upton is very very solid and I'm a huge fan of his game, so if our offense sputters it might make sense to make that deal at the break. I don't think the team needs him right now.

I will concede that missing out on Greinke hurts. If anything this team really needs another reliable consistent arm. Skizz mentioned that an AL Exec said the Rangers had some misses this off season and I'll agree that this was one. However, I don't care about other experts opinions when it comes to arguments, just facts. This brings me to my next point:

If the season started tomorrow, I think the Rangers are a better team than last year. Seriously. Let me explain.

The 2011 Rangers were the best team (record wise) in franchise history. Mike Young had a career year, CJ Wilson was solid, Alexi Ogando was an all star, Napoli had that monster year. Well we learned that Mike Young is well into his decline (worst regular in the majors), Napoli's year was a fluke, and Ogando is much more valuable in the rotation.

In 2013, Darvish replaces CJ and has an extra year to mature and get used to the majors. Ogando goes back in to the rotation with extra experience under his belt. Harrison has another year to get better, as does Holland (if his stuff can stay consistent from game to game). Feliz and Colby come back at some point in mid season and meanwhile we get to see if Perez or one of our other young guys can step up and contribute. And there's still a chance we sign another arm for that fifth spot.

Defensively, the team gets much better moving Cruz to DH and getting rid of Young. On offense, giving 500 ABs to Mike Young is a mistake and we get better simply by distributing those to our other hitters. Cruz will be healthier playing full time DH and since his lower half generates so much of his power, having healthy hammies is key. Dave Murphy is a solid player in a free agency year. Beltre and Kins are always solid. We signed AJP to replace Naps and theres a good chance his OB skills match up. We won't get the same power, but AJP is a much better contact hitter as well and our park suits his swing well. The big thing here is that Andrus, Profar or Martin need to break out. These guys have the talent but a jump in performance will make Hamilton leaving that much less pertinent. If one of those three guys contribute to their talent level next year, we will finish with a better record than in 2012. In case they don't, another veteran OF would be nice as insurance and this is why making a play for Upton at midseason seems like such a possibility. Remember, none of our young guys really got a chance to show case their skills last year. Gentry got 240 ABs. Olt got 33. Profar got 17. Those guys can play and its important they get the chance to.

This is why its so critical that we're patient this off season. The system has finally produced ML ready talent and the team has the openings to really see what they can do. Yes, they can all flop and the team could struggle. But considering how good these guys really are, I really believe the Rangers are better off.

Point 1: Greinke is not an ace. He is a solid #2. His 2009 year was incredible and he deserved his Cy Young, unfortunately he's never posted a WAR above 6 since, let alone 9. He's a very good defender for his position and has played for a good defensive team in the Royals which actually inflates his WAR. But if you use strictly pitching metrics (xFIP, ERA+, ERA-), he's actually outside of the top 6-7 guys you would consider true aces. This is a guy who makes more money than any righty in the history of the game. Think about it.

Point 2: Josh Hamilton's contract with the Angels is an albatross. I won't say much here because I think we all agree that getting Josh back at that price is ridiculous. He's just not worth it. Last year there were some pretty clear red flags about his game, like career high strikeout rate and league worst pitch recognition (resulting in the most swing misses in the majors).

Point 3: Justin Upton is not available without Andrus or Profar included in the package. I think this move is lateral because Andrus and Profar in the middle of the infield are probably the leagues best defensive tandem and will make our pitching look that much better (only Darvish misses a lot of bats) since most of our guys pitch to contact. Upton is very very solid and I'm a huge fan of his game, so if our offense sputters it might make sense to make that deal at the break. I don't think the team needs him right now.

I will concede that missing out on Greinke hurts. If anything this team really needs another reliable consistent arm. Skizz mentioned that an AL Exec said the Rangers had some misses this off season and I'll agree that this was one. However, I don't care about other experts opinions when it comes to arguments, just facts. This brings me to my next point:

If the season started tomorrow, I think the Rangers are a better team than last year. Seriously. Let me explain.

The 2011 Rangers were the best team (record wise) in franchise history. Mike Young had a career year, CJ Wilson was solid, Alexi Ogando was an all star, Napoli had that monster year. Well we learned that Mike Young is well into his decline (worst regular in the majors), Napoli's year was a fluke, and Ogando is much more valuable in the rotation.

In 2013, Darvish replaces CJ and has an extra year to mature and get used to the majors. Ogando goes back in to the rotation with extra experience under his belt. Harrison has another year to get better, as does Holland (if his stuff can stay consistent from game to game). Feliz and Colby come back at some point in mid season and meanwhile we get to see if Perez or one of our other young guys can step up and contribute. And there's still a chance we sign another arm for that fifth spot.

Defensively, the team gets much better moving Cruz to DH and getting rid of Young. On offense, giving 500 ABs to Mike Young is a mistake and we get better simply by distributing those to our other hitters. Cruz will be healthier playing full time DH and since his lower half generates so much of his power, having healthy hammies is key. Dave Murphy is a solid player in a free agency year. Beltre and Kins are always solid. We signed AJP to replace Naps and theres a good chance his OB skills match up. We won't get the same power, but AJP is a much better contact hitter as well and our park suits his swing well. The big thing here is that Andrus, Profar or Martin need to break out. These guys have the talent but a jump in performance will make Hamilton leaving that much less pertinent. If one of those three guys contribute to their talent level next year, we will finish with a better record than in 2012. In case they don't, another veteran OF would be nice as insurance and this is why making a play for Upton at midseason seems like such a possibility. Remember, none of our young guys really got a chance to show case their skills last year. Gentry got 240 ABs. Olt got 33. Profar got 17. Those guys can play and its important they get the chance to.

This is why its so critical that we're patient this off season. The system has finally produced ML ready talent and the team has the openings to really see what they can do. Yes, they can all flop and the team could struggle. But considering how good these guys really are, I really believe the Rangers are better off.

Point 1: Greinke may/may not be an "ace", but he would have been our #1 on our staff this year and depending on how Darvish improves, could possibly have slid to our #2. Greinke would have been the best pitcher on our team since Cliff Lee and we would have had him for multiple years. Nobody cares if he's a top 6 or 7 pitcher...he is A top pitcher in the league and top pitchers aren't easy to come by.

Point 2: Who cares if the contract is an albatross? They can afford it...and so could we. We all know I didn't want Josh back, but you don't just take an MVP caliber player, let him walk along with a number of your other best players, then do little more than sign an aging catcher and relief pitcher coming off surgery. Again, the Rangers could have afforded to make more of an effort.

Point 3: We agree on this point...on the point that you don't trade Andrus for Upton at least. Middle infielders are harder to come by than outfielders. As for the point about Darvish...sorry, but I'm still going to be cautious and not take his one year sample as what he is. Dice-K and Nomo started out strong here too. Lessons learned.

As for the rest of your points...

A) You can't count on Profar, Martin and Andrus to all break out. 2/3 need more experience first and Profar might even need AAA time. There's a good chance they all turn into stars someday, but I hate that some Rangers fans expect that because they're good prospects, they'll just fill in for our losses immediately. We'll be lucky to have them performing as solid MLB players 2 years from now. You can add Martin Perez, Mike Olt and our young relievers into this argument as well, in that you can't expect them to fill the gaps this year.

B) I'm not positive that our defense has really improved. Yes, Pierzynski will be an upgrade defensively over Napoli/Soto, but honestly, only marginally. He'll also have to prove that he works well with our pitchers. First base is still a cluster considering it could be Moreland, Olt or Kinsler, none of whom have any kind of consistent success at that position. If Profar plays second, he'll need time to learn it. Murphy isn't an upgrade over Hamilton defensively to me.

C) Even if we say we've improved defensively, our offense has declined. You can "hope" that someone steps up, but even best case scenario won't replace what we've lost in this department. This will affect Holland, Ogando, Perez/Ross/Grimm in the rotation when they don't give these guys enough run support to win games consistently.

Final point: You talk about how crucial "being patient" is because of the young "major league ready" players we have. Off your list, only Martin deserves a Major League shot right now. That's not to say that Profar and Olt might not be ready, but Profar could use a year in AAA and Olt might also. Throw Perez into that same boat honestly. In any case, even if you're ready to give these guys a chance, there's nothing wrong with Profar and Olt being your utility/DH guys, Martin platooning with Gentry (which might happen anyway) and Perez being used as a spot starter or "in case of emergency" guy. That said, these guys should prove themselves before being handed anything though.

You have to realize just how close to winning a championship we were with the team we had, though. You don't just throw teams like that away when you're that close, decide to rebuild and sign third and fourth tier free agents. A window to win a championship does not stay open long and frankly, we were probably one #1 or #2 pitcher away from realistically winning the whole thing.

To sum it up...This whole argument isn't an either/or argument. This is a: Give more playing time to our younger players + Continue developing the farm + Make smart trades that improve our areas of need + SPEND MONEY TO KEEP US COMPETITIVE argument.

We could easily have signed Greinke or Hamilton AND given Profar, Olt, Martin and Perez enough playing time to develop. Instead, we looked for cheap players, short contracts and used the money WE HAVE on yet more stadium upgrades (which, again, only improve the investment value for the owners) rather than on building a championship team.

Point 1: Greinke may/may not be an "ace", but he would have been our #1 on our staff this year and depending on how Darvish improves, could possibly have slid to our #2. Greinke would have been the best pitcher on our team since Cliff Lee and we would have had him for multiple years. Nobody cares if he's a top 6 or 7 pitcher...he is A top pitcher in the league and top pitchers aren't easy to come by.

Point 2: Who cares if the contract is an albatross? They can afford it...and so could we. We all know I didn't want Josh back, but you don't just take an MVP caliber player, let him walk along with a number of your other best players, then do little more than sign an aging catcher and relief pitcher coming off surgery. Again, the Rangers could have afforded to make more of an effort.

Point 3: We agree on this point...on the point that you don't trade Andrus for Upton at least. Middle infielders are harder to come by than outfielders. As for the point about Darvish...sorry, but I'm still going to be cautious and not take his one year sample as what he is. Dice-K and Nomo started out strong here too. Lessons learned.

As for the rest of your points...

A) You can't count on Profar, Martin and Andrus to all break out. 2/3 need more experience first and Profar might even need AAA time. There's a good chance they all turn into stars someday, but I hate that some Rangers fans expect that because they're good prospects, they'll just fill in for our losses immediately. We'll be lucky to have them performing as solid MLB players 2 years from now. You can add Martin Perez, Mike Olt and our young relievers into this argument as well, in that you can't expect them to fill the gaps this year.

B) I'm not positive that our defense has really improved. Yes, Pierzynski will be an upgrade defensively over Napoli/Soto, but honestly, only marginally. He'll also have to prove that he works well with our pitchers. First base is still a cluster considering it could be Moreland, Olt or Kinsler, none of whom have any kind of consistent success at that position. If Profar plays second, he'll need time to learn it. Murphy isn't an upgrade over Hamilton defensively to me.

C) Even if we say we've improved defensively, our offense has declined. You can "hope" that someone steps up, but even best case scenario won't replace what we've lost in this department. This will affect Holland, Ogando, Perez/Ross/Grimm in the rotation when they don't give these guys enough run support to win games consistently.

Final point: You talk about how crucial "being patient" is because of the young "major league ready" players we have. Off your list, only Martin deserves a Major League shot right now. That's not to say that Profar and Olt might not be ready, but Profar could use a year in AAA and Olt might also. Throw Perez into that same boat honestly. In any case, even if you're ready to give these guys a chance, there's nothing wrong with Profar and Olt being your utility/DH guys, Martin platooning with Gentry (which might happen anyway) and Perez being used as a spot starter or "in case of emergency" guy. That said, these guys should prove themselves before being handed anything though.

You have to realize just how close to winning a championship we were with the team we had, though. You don't just throw teams like that away when you're that close, decide to rebuild and sign third and fourth tier free agents. A window to win a championship does not stay open long and frankly, we were probably one #1 or #2 pitcher away from realistically winning the whole thing.

To sum it up...This whole argument isn't an either/or argument. This is a: Give more playing time to our younger players + Continue developing the farm + Make smart trades that improve our areas of need + SPEND MONEY TO KEEP US COMPETITIVE argument.

We could easily have signed Greinke or Hamilton AND given Profar, Olt, Martin and Perez enough playing time to develop. Instead, we looked for cheap players, short contracts and used the money WE HAVE on yet more stadium upgrades (which, again, only improve the investment value for the owners) rather than on building a championship team.

****ing Brilliant post! I too am sick of all these people on the board that are so worried that a couple of rich dudes with sick bank might "overspend" or pay an extra year as if they are risking their kids college money on a weekend in Vegas. Even though Daniels has sucked IMO this off season I need to give him credit for discrediting the term "overpaid" during a local DFW sports radio interview (on with the Musers on 1310 The Ticket). He accurately stated it is hard to say a player is overpaid when that is the environment we are playing in. He stated himself this is a multi-billion dollar business and the money is there. One may not think a particular player is a good value (bang for the buck) but in the context of major league baseball it is getting pretty annoying to hear from most on this board that team A or B overpaid for player X. The price to play ball is what it is... Deal with it or go home.

****ing Brilliant post! I too am sick of all these people on the board that are so worried that a couple of rich dudes with sick bank might "overspend" or pay an extra year as if they are risking their kids college money on a weekend in Vegas. Even though Daniels has sucked IMO this off season I need to give him credit for discrediting the term "overpaid" during a local DFW sports radio interview (on with the Musers on 1310 The Ticket). He accurately stated it is hard to say a player is overpaid when that is the environment we are playing in. He stated himself this is a multi-billion dollar business and the money is there. One may not think a particular player is a good value (bang for the buck) but in the context of major league baseball it is getting pretty annoying to hear from most on this board that team A or B overpaid for player X. The price to play ball is what it is... Deal with it or go home.

While I agree in principle with both posts, my response would counter thusly:

Daniels, in typical quasi logic and the smarmy fashion of a young punk speaks out of both sides of his mouth. Why do I state this?

If "the money is there" then why the hell didn't the Rangers step up and sign Grienke? Lee? or even Hamilton?

I state this from the position wholly from a get the most bang for the buck position. However, I'm quickly growing tired of Daniels and his gas.

****ing Brilliant post! I too am sick of all these people on the board that are so worried that a couple of rich dudes with sick bank might "overspend" or pay an extra year as if they are risking their kids college money on a weekend in Vegas. Even though Daniels has sucked IMO this off season I need to give him credit for discrediting the term "overpaid" during a local DFW sports radio interview (on with the Musers on 1310 The Ticket). He accurately stated it is hard to say a player is overpaid when that is the environment we are playing in. He stated himself this is a multi-billion dollar business and the money is there. One may not think a particular player is a good value (bang for the buck) but in the context of major league baseball it is getting pretty annoying to hear from most on this board that team A or B overpaid for player X. The price to play ball is what it is... Deal with it or go home.

Baseball isn't "rich kids" throwing around their money like Kim Kardashian on black Friday. The team has a budget for their payroll because this is after all a business. Its not about what they CAN afford, but what they WILL spend on. So speculating what the Rangers would look like if they had a $180mm payroll is pointless; regardless of if its possible, it won't happen. So instead of getting pissed at ownership and management for not dishing out dumb contracts to overrated players, think creatively on what the team could possibly do to maintain competitiveness.

I'm sure if push came to shove, the Rangers could have had Greinke by escalating their offer. Same could be said for Hamilton. But those salaries would affect the overall payroll budget and a year or two down the line when a really desirable free agent comes around, you don't want to be hampered by crappy contracts to where you can't afford them. I understand if the team had a huge hole in a particular spot and needed to sign a player there, but thats not the case. A bunch of young guys are ready to contribute and could easily outperform the exiting veterans (with the exception of Josh of course, he's hard to replace).

Baseball isn't "rich kids" throwing around their money like Kim Kardashian on black Friday. The team has a budget for their payroll because this is after all a business. Its not about what they CAN afford, but what they WILL spend on. So speculating what the Rangers would look like if they had a $180mm payroll is pointless; regardless of if its possible, it won't happen. So instead of getting pissed at ownership and management for not dishing out dumb contracts to overrated players, think creatively on what the team could possibly do to maintain competitiveness.

I'm sure if push came to shove, the Rangers could have had Greinke by escalating their offer. Same could be said for Hamilton. But those salaries would affect the overall payroll budget and a year or two down the line when a really desirable free agent comes around, you don't want to be hampered by crappy contracts to where you can't afford them. I understand if the team had a huge hole in a particular spot and needed to sign a player there, but thats not the case. A bunch of young guys are ready to contribute and could easily outperform the exiting veterans (with the exception of Josh of course, he's hard to replace).

$180m payroll???

Who's talking about that? How about a payroll similar to what we had last year?

And again...the money IS there. Look at the attendance numbers. Look at the 2/3 years of long playoff runs (more attendance). Look at the increased merch sales. I'll give you that the TV contract hasn't kicked in yet, but again, you KNOW it will kick in.

I get that you love the farm. I don't hate it myself. Simply put, though...we're becoming a one dimensional team with our youth. Terrific that we have Profar, a good defensive middle infielder that can hit for average and maybe get ahold of 15 dingers a year. We've already got one of those. Terrific that we have Martin Perez, a left-handed pitcher that hasn't even had success in AAA...does he even project above Derek Holland (Mr. Inconsistent) still? Mike Olt may surprise a few and make up for some of the power lost...or yet again, he might become Justin Smoak.

So back to the point...IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY, WHY WON'T YOU SPEND IT?

*Who is the better player...Mitch Moreland or Prince Fielder? Yep, could've had him.

*Who is the better player...Martin Perez or Cliff Lee? Yep, could've had him too.

Again, it's not about the money...it's about acquiring the best talent you can any way you can.

No, we can't afford the best player at every position. But, just like in the real world, baseball isn't either/or. You can have a few top players and then balance the team out with affordable "lesser" type players. It's what good teams do.

So here's the final point...

What good does having a cheap budget full of young players accomplish? The Rays, the beloved model for this type of team has yet to prove they can win it all this way. (Tack on the A's or any other team you like also.)

Seriously, look at championship teams...they have Cain/Lincecum/Bumgarner rotations (2012 Giants). They have Pujols/Holliday lineups with Carpenter (and a hurt Wainwright) in their rotation (2011 Cardinals). Just 3 years ago a team proved it can win a championship by acquiring top free agents (2009 Yankees)...and the list goes on.

We have Adrian Beltre now and a decent top half of a rotation...that's it. (And no I don't want to hear what anyone projects our team COULD do...not when they haven't done it yet.) I'm sorry...but nobody can compare our team with any team that has won a championship in the last few years.

What is so wrong with taking the young players you have, letting them play AND then signing top tier players to improve your chances at winning a championship?

And lastly...I'll say it again...If this organization can take our increased revenue and dump it into stadium upgrades (which improve their investment), why can't they take some of those funds and improve the product on the field also? AJ Pierzynski and Joakim Soria do not make up for the fact that this team was too cheap/out of touch to re-sign Hamilton, let Napoli walk, trade Young (which was fine under the pretense that they'd use their savings to SIGN OTHER PLAYERS), let Uehara and Adams go, fail to go "all in" with Greinke, ignore a position upgrade with BJ Upton, fail to get a deal done for Justin Upton because they didn't want to trade good players, or even make a legitimate attempt to balance our losses with a Nick Swisher or Adam LaRoche.

I'm not saying I wanted all of those players, but lets face it...this organization hasn't been "in" on doing much more than strengthening their own investments. Good for them...bad for the fans...which in turn will become bad for the organization when their customers decide they don't want to spend their outrageous prices on a second-rate product.

IT'S NOT EITHER/OR...it's about balance and putting together whatever mix it takes to create a winner. If JD can't do it within the "restraints" of our "budget", then he needs to **** off and go tinker around in Houston or Miami or some other city that isn't serious about winning.

Sorry one last thing...the comment about being hampered when a "desirable" free agent becomes available...

A) What "desirable" free agent is becoming available in the next few years that 1) wants to come here, 2) won't be wrapped up by their own team and 3) actually fits our needs?

B) If we didn't sign a very "desirable" Cliff Lee, a player that fit our needs and gave us a great chance to win, what makes you think this team will sign any other "desirable" free agent?

C) What "desirable" free agent is going to sign a short term deal (lest we be hampered again by a long contract), especially if they are so "desirable" that other teams compete for their services (like always) too?

You going to be happy shelling out the dough for a "desirable" Matt Garza when he's the best pitcher on the market next year? How about shelling out a ton of dough for a Tim Lincecum, who will most likely only be on the market because he's coming off his second poor season in a row?

Sorry...but not giving a player a long-term contract because it will "hamper" your chances at something else down the line is some of the dumbest logic I've ever heard. "One in the hand is better than two in the bush"...which is to say, if you have an opportunity to fill a need take it, because you might not get that chance again.

Stipe, he clearly thinks every deal is A-Rod all over again. Some Rangers fans just can't get over that the A-Rod situation was pure stupidity on Hicks' part and not what happens with every big name player.

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."
— Dr. Seuss

Stipe, he clearly thinks every deal is A-Rod all over again. Some Rangers fans just can't get over that the A-Rod situation was pure stupidity on Hicks' part and not what happens with every big name player.

ARod was the best player on the planet just hitting his prime when he signed a $25mm annual deal with the Rangers. Hamilton signed for the same amount at age 31 with a history of health issues and personal problems. This isn't an ARod deal, this is much much worse.

But its clear this is just a disagreement on how we think a baseball team should operate. I don't think we need to sign a guy to a contract thats above his value just to maintain payroll, or that one signing is the difference between being competitive and finishing 3rd in our division. I think if the season starts tomorrow, the Rangers are contenders yet again.

But talking about this over and over is getting old. You won't convince me just like I won't convince all of you. Lets let the season play out and see who was right.

ARod was the best player on the planet just hitting his prime when he signed a $25mm annual deal with the Rangers. Hamilton signed for the same amount at age 31 with a history of health issues and personal problems. This isn't an ARod deal, this is much much worse.

But its clear this is just a disagreement on how we think a baseball team should operate. I don't think we need to sign a guy to a contract thats above his value just to maintain payroll, or that one signing is the difference between being competitive and finishing 3rd in our division. I think if the season starts tomorrow, the Rangers are contenders yet again.

But talking about this over and over is getting old. You won't convince me just like I won't convince all of you. Lets let the season play out and see who was right.

I don't mean to drag it out, but I honestly am seeking answers to this line of thought, because I'm really not getting it...

How do you sign the best players available, for their "value", in a competitive market where teams will outbid others to obtain the services of said best players available?

Seriously...I'm dying to know how this team will obtain an ace-type pitcher when there are teams out there willing to outbid a "players value" and get the best available player on their team.

Are you thinking that all of a sudden teams like the Yankees, Angels or Dodgers will stop bidding on the best players in the future?

Are you content with second, third and fourth tier players simply because the competition doesn't drive their prices up?

Are you okay with increased revenues not being put back into the team simply because a team shouldn't spend a certain amount on a player...even when they have the money to do so?

And if so, are you alright with that extra revenue going back into the ownerships pocket because it's not being put back into the team?

Again...I don't mean to drag this out. I honestly don't get it. This goes against everything someone is taught about doing good business. "You spend money to make money", etc...

ARod was the best player on the planet just hitting his prime when he signed a $25mm annual deal with the Rangers. Hamilton signed for the same amount at age 31 with a history of health issues and personal problems. This isn't an ARod deal, this is much much worse.

But its clear this is just a disagreement on how we think a baseball team should operate. I don't think we need to sign a guy to a contract thats above his value just to maintain payroll, or that one signing is the difference between being competitive and finishing 3rd in our division. I think if the season starts tomorrow, the Rangers are contenders yet again.

But talking about this over and over is getting old. You won't convince me just like I won't convince all of you. Lets let the season play out and see who was right.

Just one note on this...the fact you seriously just compared A-Rod and Hamilton's deals kind of shows your lack of business sense. I swear, that's not an insult, it's just that it shows a lack of understanding of things like inflation. It also ignores the length of each deal as well.

And last, you could argue, right this second, Hamilton might be the best player on the planet, regardless of age. As much as I hated Hamilton at times (especially when it came to his never ending excuses or how he seemed to turn it on and off whenever he felt like it)...when the guy is healthy, he is right there in any conversation about the best baseball player on the planet.

On top of that, there's the counter argument about his age. So many people wonder if drugs have destroyed his body. But one could argue the injuries he's received are self inflicted (like the "slide" at home plate or running in to walls). One could go further and argue that the drugs haven't had any notable effect on his athleticism. And then continue and say, due to the many years Hamilton missed, he may be able to go longer than someone like A-Rod who played in the majors from the time he was 18. Hamilton's body likely has far less wear and tear than it would have had he not gotten addicted to drugs.

So, there's certainly an argument to be made that the Hamilton contract is a much better deal than the A-Rod one.

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."
— Dr. Seuss

Just one note on this...the fact you seriously just compared A-Rod and Hamilton's deals kind of shows your lack of business sense. I swear, that's not an insult, it's just that it shows a lack of understanding of things like inflation. It also ignores the length of each deal as well.

And last, you could argue, right this second, Hamilton might be the best player on the planet, regardless of age. As much as I hated Hamilton at times (especially when it came to his never ending excuses or how he seemed to turn it on and off whenever he felt like it)...when the guy is healthy, he is right there in any conversation about the best baseball player on the planet.

On top of that, there's the counter argument about his age. So many people wonder if drugs have destroyed his body. But one could argue the injuries he's received are self inflicted (like the "slide" at home plate or running in to walls). One could go further and argue that the drugs haven't had any notable effect on his athleticism. And then continue and say, due to the many years Hamilton missed, he may be able to go longer than someone like A-Rod who played in the majors from the time he was 18. Hamilton's body likely has far less wear and tear than it would have had he not gotten addicted to drugs.

So, there's certainly an argument to be made that the Hamilton contract is a much better deal than the A-Rod one.

I know a lot more about business than you, the comparison was just that, a comparison. Obviously $225mm 12 years ago is more money now. I didn't think I had to qualify that because its obvious to everyone.

I don't mean to drag it out, but I honestly am seeking answers to this line of thought, because I'm really not getting it...

How do you sign the best players available, for their "value", in a competitive market where teams will outbid others to obtain the services of said best players available?

Seriously...I'm dying to know how this team will obtain an ace-type pitcher when there are teams out there willing to outbid a "players value" and get the best available player on their team.

Are you thinking that all of a sudden teams like the Yankees, Angels or Dodgers will stop bidding on the best players in the future?

Are you content with second, third and fourth tier players simply because the competition doesn't drive their prices up?

Are you okay with increased revenues not being put back into the team simply because a team shouldn't spend a certain amount on a player...even when they have the money to do so?

And if so, are you alright with that extra revenue going back into the ownerships pocket because it's not being put back into the team?

Again...I don't mean to drag this out. I honestly don't get it. This goes against everything someone is taught about doing good business. "You spend money to make money", etc...

Stipe you're a smart guy. In a free market, worth will not be same as value. I can take all of the salaries of all the players in baseball and give you an amount that teams pay for each hit, each home run, each RBI, etc. In fact, there is a website (which I conveniently can't find) that assigns a dollar amount to each win a player contributes. Thats value.

Worth is determined relatively between teams with finite amount of goods, in this case players. The demand this season far outweighs the supply which makes players worth more in relation to their value. Hamilton, at his peak, is an elite hitter. But because of the inherent risks that come with signing him, there are literally two dozen players I'd rather have instead (maybe more). Since those guys are not available this year, Hamilton's worth to teams that need an impact bat goes through the roof. Simply put, I don't think Josh will do anywhere near $125mm in production over the length of his deal.

Your point is that you're tired of getting outbid by teams that are willing to overspend. But thats the nature of the beast brother. We are not, nor will we ever be, a Yankees, Dodgers, Angels type of market. But the team has enough financial man power to sign some elite free agents, just not every single one like the Yanks like to do. How many elite free agents have the Giants signed? Cardinals? Athletics (who won the division)? We will be a team that develops talent well, acquires a lot via trade and grabs an impact free agent every other season at best. And with the front office that we have, the team will be competitive doing so.

I know a lot more about business than you, the comparison was just that, a comparison. Obviously $225mm 12 years ago is more money now. I didn't think I had to qualify that because its obvious to everyone.

You don't even know me. I literally handle THOUSANDS of dollars each day. I'd love to see you try me in business. Like always, you make grandiose, condescending comments with nothing to back it up. But you're the one who compared a contract from a decade ago to a contract this year and didn't consider inflation or length and still called it worse (I'm not just talking about more money = worse contract). I highly doubt you can touch me when it comes to business.

You're the one who supports a FAILED business model in baseball (telling us we should be like the Rays and Athletics - teams who don't spend and don't win more than the Yankees and Red Sox - who have won three of the last 9 championships and seen the playoffs nearly every season before the Red Sox rebuild).

Last edited by Skizzik; 12-28-2012 at 05:20 PM.

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."
— Dr. Seuss