Haha, you are correct Tara, that was what made me ask. Thanks Adamantine and Namdrol. I thought they must be mixing something (not just from Kali reference, didn't look much like Tibetan Buddhism in general to me) but wasn't sure.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

Tara wrote:I may be speaking out of turn however I believe Pero's reference to Kali was because Christie McNally said the following in the document "A Shift in the Matrix"

OK apologies to Pero for misconstruing your post. Deepbluehum did make a similar supernatural reasonings in an earlier post and perhaps I should have replied to him (and I have seen it used elsewhere by some to explain what's going on).

In response to Namdrol's point that two explanations are not mutually exclusive, as I am not privy to the decisions of the Dharma Protectors I cannot say. However, I think in this case there are plenty of plain old rational explanations for what led to this sorry situation that any intervention by supernatural forces would be superfluous.

Last edited by Knotty Veneer on Fri May 04, 2012 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.

Adamantine wrote:That said, Krodakali, aka Troma, as practiced in the Nyingma lineage, is equivalent to Kali.

No it isn't. There is no relationship between the two. Krodhakali is a form of Vajrayogini. Vajrayogini is not Kali.

According to you. But not according to lineage masters I have conferred with. I have been told they are the same.

Well, it ain't so.

Krodhakāli originally entered Tibet with Padampa Sangye, hence the long association with Chö. This transmission is from a sadhana Virupa received in Oḍḍiyāna from a dakini there.

Kālarātri aka Kālī along with Bhairāva serve as the seat of Cakrasamvara and Vajrayogini. So it is really quite impossible that Kālī can be Vajrayogini. In reality, Cakrasamvara and Vajrayogini emanated from Akaniṣṭha to counteract Bhairava and Kālī.

Krodhakāli originally entered Tibet with Padampa Sangye, hence the long association with Chö. This transmission is from a sadhana Virupa received in Oḍḍiyāna from a dakini there.

Kālarātri aka Kālī along with Bhairāva serve as the seat of Cakrasamvara and Vajrayogini. So it is really quite impossible that Kālī can be Vajrayogini. In reality, Cakrasamvara and Vajrayogini emanated from Akaniṣṭha to counteract Bhairava and Kālī.

Chinamasta/Chinnamunda, who is a form of Vajrayogini (her attendants are named "Vajravarnaniye" and "Vajravairochaniye" after all), is sort of a cousin of Kali, so maybe thats where the confusion comes from.

Thoroughly tame your own mind.This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

Namdrol wrote:No it isn't. There is no relationship between the two. Krodhakali is a form of Vajrayogini. Vajrayogini is not Kali.

According to you. But not according to lineage masters I have conferred with. I have been told they are the same.

Well, it ain't so.

Krodhakāli originally entered Tibet with Padampa Sangye, hence the long association with Chö. This transmission is from a sadhana Virupa received in Oḍḍiyāna from a dakini there.

This is veering way off topic, but I don't know if one can answer this question through literalist histories of supramundane entities that don't conform to conceptual or historical human limitations.

Kālarātri aka Kālī along with Bhairāva serve as the seat of Cakrasamvara and Vajrayogini. So it is really quite impossible that Kālī can be Vajrayogini. In reality, Cakrasamvara and Vajrayogini emanated from Akaniṣṭha to counteract Bhairava and Kālī.

I don't see your logic here, what makes it impossible? You are talking about symbolic representations now, not the actual energies at play anymore.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Adamantine wrote:I don't see your logic here, what makes it impossible? You are talking about symbolic representations now, not the actual energies at play anymore.

It is simple. Yogini emanated to suppress Kāli, just as Heruka emanated to suppress Bhairava. Hence, there is no way Kali can be Yogini, there is no way this worldly goddess can be one and the same as Buddha Vajrayogini.

Adamantine wrote:I don't see your logic here, what makes it impossible? You are talking about symbolic representations now, not the actual energies at play anymore.

It is simple. Yogini emanated to suppress Kāli, just as Heruka emanated to suppress Bhairava. Hence, there is no way Kali can be Yogini, there is no way this worldly goddess can be one and the same as Buddha Vajrayogini.

You believe this to be literally true Namdrol?

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Adamantine wrote:I don't see your logic here, what makes it impossible? You are talking about symbolic representations now, not the actual energies at play anymore.

It is simple. Yogini emanated to suppress Kāli, just as Heruka emanated to suppress Bhairava. Hence, there is no way Kali can be Yogini, there is no way this worldly goddess can be one and the same as Buddha Vajrayogini.

You believe this to be literally true Namdrol?

I believe that this is the traditional account of the origin of all forms of Vajrayogini and hence, it is impossble for Yogini to be Kali.

Namdrol wrote:It is simple. Yogini emanated to suppress Kāli, just as Heruka emanated to suppress Bhairava. Hence, there is no way Kali can be Yogini, there is no way this worldly goddess can be one and the same as Buddha Vajrayogini.

You believe this to be literally true Namdrol?

I believe that this is the traditional account of the origin of all forms of Vajrayogini and hence, it is impossble for Yogini to be Kali.

Unless those traditional accounts had more to do with Buddhist-Hindu competing interpretations at the time of their inception. . . My understanding is that the actual energies of these two are identical, however, it is a misunderstanding of certain qualities and symbolism that have led Hindu devotees to do terrible things like commit blood human and animal sacrifices in her name, etc. Perhaps the symbolism of these early accounts has more to do with purifying the context of devotion from this degeneration, and is framed as suppression in a colorful way to communicate this. Again, I am just offering an alternative way to interpret what you are putting forth as an absolute truth. I am sure there are more.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Adamantine wrote:Unless those traditional accounts had more to do with Buddhist-Hindu competing interpretations at the time of their inception. . . My understanding is that the actual energies of these two are identical, however, it is a misunderstanding of certain qualities and symbolism that have led Hindu devotees to do terrible things like commit blood human and animal sacrifices in her name, etc. Perhaps the symbolism of these early accounts has more to do with purifying the context of devotion from this degeneration, and is framed as suppression in a colorful way to communicate this. Again, I am just offering an alternative way to interpret what you are putting forth as an absolute truth. I am sure there are more.

This is a modern interpretation. Some Lama may have adopted it. I still think it is bunk.

Adamantine wrote:Unless those traditional accounts had more to do with Buddhist-Hindu competing interpretations at the time of their inception. . . My understanding is that the actual energies of these two are identical, however, it is a misunderstanding of certain qualities and symbolism that have led Hindu devotees to do terrible things like commit blood human and animal sacrifices in her name, etc. Perhaps the symbolism of these early accounts has more to do with purifying the context of devotion from this degeneration, and is framed as suppression in a colorful way to communicate this. Again, I am just offering an alternative way to interpret what you are putting forth as an absolute truth. I am sure there are more.

This is a modern interpretation. Some Lama may have adopted it. I still think it is bunk.

I think the only person qualified to answer that would be a high Lama who knows both parties personally. Many of these once mundane Gods have been practitioners and students of the Buddhas for aeons. If I kept my Samayas for a thousand years and used the powers of a God to accumulate merit progress on the path would be swift. To think of Gods as static and unchanging sounds like eternalism. Even very negative beings become miraculous protectors full of love when they accept guidance of the Aryas.

Adamantine wrote:Unless those traditional accounts had more to do with Buddhist-Hindu competing interpretations at the time of their inception. . . My understanding is that the actual energies of these two are identical, however, it is a misunderstanding of certain qualities and symbolism that have led Hindu devotees to do terrible things like commit blood human and animal sacrifices in her name, etc. Perhaps the symbolism of these early accounts has more to do with purifying the context of devotion from this degeneration, and is framed as suppression in a colorful way to communicate this. Again, I am just offering an alternative way to interpret what you are putting forth as an absolute truth. I am sure there are more.

This is a modern interpretation. Some Lama may have adopted it. I still think it is bunk.

I think the only person qualified to answer that would be a high Lama who knows both parties personally. Many of these once mundane Gods have been practitioners and students of the Buddhas for aeons. If I kept my Samayas for a thousand years and used the powers of a God to accumulate merit progress on the path would be swift. To think of Gods as static and unchanging sounds like eternalism. Even very negative beings become miraculous protectors full of love when they accept guidance of the Aryas.

This was answered by a high Lama, fyi.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Nemo wrote:I think the only person qualified to answer that would be a high Lama who knows both parties personally. Many of these once mundane Gods have been practitioners and students of the Buddhas for aeons. If I kept my Samayas for a thousand years and used the powers of a God to accumulate merit progress on the path would be swift. To think of Gods as static and unchanging sounds like eternalism. Even very negative beings become miraculous protectors full of love when they accept guidance of the Aryas.

Umm, this is not the issue. Kali does not become Vajrayogini by mere fiat.