Anyway...not sure how I feel about this. DC tinkering with things I care about makes me nervous. This means the Endless go back into superhero continuity...which can be for win or for fail. We shall see.posted by Tesseractive at 4:04 PM on June 2, 2010 [1 favorite]

I guess this is tacit admission from DC that only adults read comics now...posted by PenDevil at 4:10 PM on June 2, 2010 [1 favorite]

I love the superhero appearances that take place during Sandman's original run--even more than the ones at the beginning, I love Batman and Superman's appearances during The Wake, at the end of the series.

What I love less is Dream's appearance in JLA in the relatively brief period where such things were allowed. The JSA appearances are okay (hanging out with Wesley Dodds? Kinda cool).posted by Tesseractive at 4:12 PM on June 2, 2010

Scraping the series sounds a far more horrible fate than most series get.posted by m0nm0n at 4:12 PM on June 2, 2010

I vaguely thought Neil Gaiman had a deal whereby he could veto DC's use of Sandman characters. Did I, uh, dream that up?

According to Robot 6: However, when was the last time John Constantine, Swamp Thing or the Sandman cast popped up in a superhero title? (Probably 1997, in JLA, for the latter; Neil Gaiman has final say on their use. For the other two, I have no idea.)posted by Artw at 4:13 PM on June 2, 2010

I didn't know a Miéville Swamp Thing had been anticipated. So now I'm sadder than before I ever heard about it. Damn you, Artw!

Mainstreaming the Vertigo characters strikes me as a bad idea. But at least half of what Marvel and DC get up to strike me as bad ideas, so what do I know? (Well, I know I'm not a regular at a comics shop anymore.)posted by Zed at 4:15 PM on June 2, 2010 [1 favorite]

twirlip: I also read something about that, just today, in fact, on an article linked from CBR that seems to have disappeared.

PenDevil: Possibly, but I think a lot of it has to do with the changing nature of the Vertigo imprint. When it started, it was largely a place for DC characters who would lend themselves to edgier, darker, more adult material. Now it is almost all original series. It makes a certain sense to reintegrate the characters, although I don't see why that means they had to scratch the Mieville reboot.posted by Saxon Kane at 4:16 PM on June 2, 2010

Only if they use the Johnny Constantine that appeared in Danny the Street's Kirby-flavored dream-DC. (Doom Patrol ish #53, True Believers!)

Also on the Doom Patrol tip, I'd note that because he couldn't poach Vertigo-bound Constantine for what was then still something of a DC book (except as noted for a dream sequence), Morrison went and created Willoughby Kipling instead.

--But mostly this reads like more of the Exodus Inward. Reach out to new readers from fans of the New Weird? Ah, fuck that noise. Retreat, retreat.posted by kipmanley at 4:16 PM on June 2, 2010 [7 favorites]

Artw: ah, yes, that's the Robot 6 article. I couldn't find it for the life of me, for some reason...posted by Saxon Kane at 4:17 PM on June 2, 2010

What a fucking stupid thing to do.posted by empath at 4:18 PM on June 2, 2010

kipmanley - It's a good job nobody wrote any more Doom Patrol once Grant Morrison had finished with it. Nobody. NOBODY.posted by Artw at 4:18 PM on June 2, 2010 [9 favorites]

I know, artw. Man, could you imagine what might've happened?posted by kipmanley at 4:22 PM on June 2, 2010

I ... just ... don't ... care.

I have such a hard time with the DC universe as a concept. It's so ... so ... I can't put my finger on it. It's so cosmic. The characters are not sufficiently flawed to be interesting.

When Wolverine says, "I'm the best there is at what I do," you can't take it seriously, because you know he isn't the fastest, strongest, smartest, toughest at anything. It's arrogance. It's scrappiness. It's character.

When Batman says, "I'm the best there is at what I do," ... well ... yeah. I guess you really are the best. And if you're not the best, you can buy the best. Because we've had that hammered into our brains for decades and decades. Yawn.

It reminds me of Chris Rock's criticism of the movie The Aviator. The character started rich and crazy and stayed rich and crazy. There was no growth. The movie's central question is, "What's this crazy white man going to spend his money on next?"

CPB: I generally agree with you, but, strangely enough, almost everything I read is DC... Well, Vertigo. I can't be bothered with any of the two universes, really, and all the cross-overs, changing mega-events, blah blah. The only Marvel character that I have any interest in keeping up with is Daredevil, because he's had a series of great writers on his book and it was kept mostly self-contained through the Bendis run (only read a little of the Brubaker run, which was great, but I haven't been buying the more recent tpbs).posted by Saxon Kane at 4:28 PM on June 2, 2010

Goddamnit DC, an original Miéville series on anything would have been the shit, but you keep doing a reverse-Pacino: I try to get back into your series but you keep pushing me back out!posted by Halloween Jack at 4:37 PM on June 2, 2010

Bruyce Wayne is the best there is at what he does because he's a fucking maniac.

Anyway, Batman is actually kind of rocking at the moment, precisely because Batman isn't Bruce Wayne anymore (and Robin is Bruce Waynes evil son) - only now they are bringing Bruce Wayne back and that's rocking too. That's right - I'm enjoying an eventy comic where a character dies, is temporarily replaced and then comes back to absolutely no ones suprise. It's even tied into mega event damp squib "Final Crisis". And yet it is awesome comics.posted by Artw at 4:38 PM on June 2, 2010 [1 favorite]

I thought that DC did such an awesome job of bringing Doom Patrol back to the universe in the last few years that I can't help but look forward to a new DCU Swamp Thing!

I picked up two DCU mainstream #1s last month, and sucked it up and bought the first two Avengers relaunches (Avengers by Bendis, and Secret Avengers by Brubaker).

The two DCU books just made me that much more determined to ignore anything going on over there, and the Avengers books left me wanting more. Marvel's even got me picking up Fantastic Four regularly again, thanks to putting Jonathan Hickman on the book.

Something has gone very right for Marvel in the matching-talent-with-title end of things lately, and I don't see that going on at DC... and this recent "anything that started in the DCU can be dragged back whenever we want it" DC policy sounds like Dan DiDio either grandstanding or resenting how well Shelly Bond and Karen Berger have done editorially with Vertigo books.

I love me some Hellblazer, some Madame Xanadu, gimme that Scalped and Sweet Tooth... but mainstream DCU leaves me cold, and I have to imagine DiDio's noticed that in reader reactions somewhere along the line. I don't want to have to be a walking DC continuity wiki to comprehend a 22-page comic book; the Vertigo books never really ask that of me. To see those characters absorbed back into the clusterfuck would make me really sad.posted by fairytale of los angeles at 4:44 PM on June 2, 2010 [1 favorite]

CPB - My love of all things Batman asside, I would concede that outside it's big iconic characters, which are hard to do because they are so big and iconic, the DC universe is kind of crappy compared to the Marvel one.

But with those characters, and with a good writer, it can be pretty awesome (see: Morrison's All Star Superman, anything by Alan Moore)

That said... Vertigo is pretty much founded on crappy DC edge characters that nobody knew what to do with. And good writers, who used the obscurity of the characters they were writing for to do great things.

Hey, it's good news for all the people who like that Miracle Man and the Martian Manhunter show up in the first few issues of Sandman.

Or if we liked "The Doll's House", "The Kindley Ones", or "The Wake". Brute and Glob were Kirby characters. Lyta Hall, Fury, (one-time) daughter of Wonder Woman, has a some small part in the series as well.posted by bonehead at 4:46 PM on June 2, 2010

This is disappointing. I don't care for superhero comics anymore; the whole thing just got too adult for my liking. All I like to read these days is, well, Vertigo and Vertigo-type stuff: Sandman, Preacher, Fables, Transmetropolitan, and Hellblazer. (God, I love Hellblazer.) But when I did read superhero comics, I always preferred Marvel, for the exact reasons Cool Papa Bell laid out upthread. I don't really want to read Hellblazer comics in the DCU, with all of its overt silliness and shallowness. I just want to read Hellblazer.posted by Pope Guilty at 4:57 PM on June 2, 2010 [1 favorite]

Or if we liked "The Doll's House", "The Kindley Ones", or "The Wake". Brute and Glob were Kirby characters. Lyta Hall, Fury, (one-time) daughter of Wonder Woman, has a some small part in the series as well.

Heh... people tend not to mention those. Or Cain and Abel (who I guess get a pass due to their biblical forebears). Martian Manhunter and Miracle Man though, they get mentioned a lot.posted by Artw at 5:01 PM on June 2, 2010

The nice thing about most of the Swamp Thing & Sandman crossovers to DC is that you can be (mostly) totally ignorant of the DCU (except for recognizing the biggest stars whom everyone knows) and it works out fine. I don't really need to know the history of the JLA in order to get what's going on. Hell, Moore even managed to make Crisis on Infinite Earths approachable.posted by Saxon Kane at 5:09 PM on June 2, 2010

Hell, Moore even managed to make Crisis on Infinite Earths approachable.

I'm inclined to say that all the best "Vertigo" work pre-existed the Vertighetto. Swamp Thing? I think even Veitch was gone before Vertigo. Animal Man? Not only was Grant Morrison gone, but the War of the Gods crossover happened before Vertigo. Doom Patrol? Looks to me like Vertigo started the month Morrison left. Sandman? Already famous before the wall went up. If only someone other than DiDio were in charge (and I'm someone who has given him the benefit of the doubt for way too long), I'd think this was likely a good move for DC. And Deadman should never have been a Vertigo character in the first place.

Oh, counterexample: The Invisibles was totally and rightfully Vertigo but didn't involve characters that tied in to the DCU proper.posted by kimota at 5:13 PM on June 2, 2010 [4 favorites]

This means the Endless go back into superhero continuity...which can be for win or for fail.

I can see it now: Morpheus and his spunky sidekicks Death and Delirium saving the world from a host of nightmare creatures (the Corinthian, the Kindly Ones, hordes of nybbases) every night.

Of course, given that Gaiman has the power of veto, this won't happen, but still...posted by acb at 5:20 PM on June 2, 2010

I'm guessing DC cares more about reclaiming pre-1987 characters (Swamp Thing, Shade, Black Orchid, not John Constantine or the Sandman), given the current DCU is trying to move back somewhere between about 1975-1983.

And really, is it that big a deal? Give Dan DiDio all the rope he needs. Vertigo is better when it pushes original creator-owned concepts rather than clinging to nostalgia.posted by Eddie Devil at 5:28 PM on June 2, 2010

PREDICTION:

1) LUCIFER IS GONG TO JOIN THE LEGION.

2) I WILL MAKE AN AIR-GUITAR GESTURE AND BE ALL 'WEEDLE-LEE-WEEDLE-LEE WEEEEE!'posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:30 PM on June 2, 2010

I've come at Neil Gaiman backwards--read all his novels first and I just now started reading Sandman. I'd been told to expect some cross-overs, but it was still totally strange and jarring to me to have Batman and Robin show up even briefly in Preludes and Nocturnes. I couldn't even explain why to myself for a while, but I think it's related to what Cool Papa Bell said.

I'm not familiar with Hellboy or the rest of the Vertigo characters, but if they're as murky as the people in the Sandman world, reintegrating them with the rest of the DC universe sounds like you'll end up with a universe like the one in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?: real people interacting with cartoons and you're just supposed to suspend disbelief that it could happen.posted by colfax at 5:30 PM on June 2, 2010

I guess I'm not terribly bothered by this news, because I follow writers rather than characters, and a lot of the DC work done my favorite writers (Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, and Neil Gaiman) has leveraged the continuity of the "mainstream" DC universe for all it was worth. There's no reason that having Swamp Thing be a part of the shared universe has to suck. Alan Moore proved that a long, long time ago. And Morrison's work in particular seems to read equally well whether he's playing in the sandbox, or designing his own universes.

On the other hand, there's also no real reason why the end result of all this has to be any good, either. Some of the nonexistent post-Morrison versions of the Doom Patrol (thanks for the concept, Artw) were set in the mainstream continuity, and they were entirely forgettable.

I do have a problem with losing the contribution of someone like Mieville. Given that the best outcomes seem to result from hiring the best writers, sacrificing Mieville for the sake of this new policy seems both odd and un-necessary. Like if a movie studio executive were to fire, say, Harold Ramis, from directing a new comedy, and saying it's because they want all their movies to be in 3D. What the hell's one thing got to do with another?posted by Ipsifendus at 5:35 PM on June 2, 2010 [2 favorites]

Batman vs. the Corinthian is gonna be awesome.posted by homunculus at 5:42 PM on June 2, 2010

Batman vs. the Corinthian is gonna be awesome.

Two guys. Wrestling. In leather outfits. Okaayyyyy....posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:44 PM on June 2, 2010

Vertigo is where someone like China Miéville can actually work on original concepts rather than have to make do with working on a 40 year-old character (with apologies to Mike Sterling).posted by Eddie Devil at 5:45 PM on June 2, 2010 [1 favorite]

To me DC has always been a place where weird shit is allowed to happen underneath the feet of those icons. Kirby, for instance, flourished at DC (the New Gods, The Tomorrow People, OMAC, yes, even his Sandman) in a way that Marvel's lower-power, grittier universe didn't allow. Could Grant Morrison have done Animal Man at Marvel, or would Flex Mentallo have been allowed, even briefly? DC has also been a place more comfortable with multiple versions of it's characters. How many Supermans and Batmans have there been? There's really only one Spider-man though (maybe two if you count Ben). Marvel never really embraced its what-ifs as much as DC did it's elseworlds.

Both DC and Marvel continuities have their flaws (extra-super-really-final crisis vs well, any ten year run of Spider-man, really). While Marvel concerns itself with with the human dimensions of heroes, DC has has been trying new ways to tell (old & new) myths. If you don't like mythic, you probably won't like DC.posted by bonehead at 5:46 PM on June 2, 2010 [6 favorites]

They should have Desire, Despair and Delirium compete for control of Superman, and he has to go back in time to team up with Emperor Norton in order to defeat them.posted by homunculus at 5:52 PM on June 2, 2010 [2 favorites]

Vertigo is where someone like China Miéville can actually work on original concepts rather than have to make do with working on a 40 year-old character.

Historically, this wouldn't have mattered much. At least in the past, DC has done out-of-continuity stuff with out qualms: Transmetropolitan, V, Astro City, to name a few. If this is changing under DeLilo, well, all for the worse. In the past though, lots of stuff was published beofore Vertigo and even during Vertigo's existence that didn't have anything to do with the JLA or even have a place in the DC multi-verse. Revamping a character wouldn't have been a big deal, I wouldn't think (eg Gaiman's Black Orchid, which slightly includes Batman & enemies). With this newish editor, I don't know though.posted by bonehead at 5:54 PM on June 2, 2010

With this newish editor, I don't know though.

Geoff Johns seems to have such respect/fanatical devotion for the DC Continuity that I'm pretty confident he won't just drop Vertigo characters wholesale into the setting. We may get Booster Gold meets Jesse Custer, but that's about it.posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:01 PM on June 2, 2010 [1 favorite]

Historically, this wouldn't have mattered much. At least in the past, DC has done out-of-continuity stuff with out qualms: Transmetropolitan, V, Astro City, to name a few. If this is changing under DeLilo, well, all for the worse. In the past though, lots of stuff was published beofore Vertigo and even during Vertigo's existence that didn't have anything to do with the JLA or even have a place in the DC multi-verse. Revamping a character wouldn't have been a big deal, I wouldn't think (eg Gaiman's Black Orchid, which slightly includes Batman & enemies). With this newish editor, I don't know though.

The DC of old was much more interested in pushing newer ideas into comics. As someone who was actively reading DC comics in the late 80s and early 90s, it really was an exciting time to be a reader, even if DC had as many misses as they did hits. It at least felt like they were trying to do new things. It seems like some of this energy got transferred to Vertigo as DC proper became more occupied with manufactured events and variant covers during the speculator boom of the 90s.

Today, with exceptions, DC under Dan DiDio seems content to rehash the 70s and 80s, but with heavy doses of gratuitous violence. Vertigo is probably one of the last parts of DC still even remotely looking at new ideas.posted by Eddie Devil at 6:07 PM on June 2, 2010 [2 favorites]

If this is changing under DeLilo, well, all for the worse.

I don't think I'd enjoy the editorial direction DC Comics would take under Don DeLillo, but I'm sure that it would be a very interesting one.

Has Mieville himself said anything about any of this? What bothers me about Bleeding Cool is that it seems as though none of their stories are ever substantiated (or at least none of the ones that get linked to). I know it has lots of fans, I can't help but imagine a guy in a Green Lantern t-shirt and a fedora who looks just like Danny DeVito hunched over a MacBook and pounding this stuff out, a fifth of bourbon near at hand. (Come to think of it, I think I'd actually love Bleeding Cool if all the articles were heavy on alliteration and multiple exclamation points.)posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:10 PM on June 2, 2010

I'm not familiar with Hellboy or the rest of the Vertigo characters

Hellboy has never been a Vertigo/DC character; Mignola's Hellboy/BPRD universe has always been published by the indie Dark Horse. Minor point, but I love that series so much I had to mention it.posted by mediareport at 6:25 PM on June 2, 2010 [1 favorite]

Eh, Marvel's 'flawed character' schtick would be more interesting if it wasn't so heavy-handed. It's like Dawson's Creek with superpowers a lot of the time.posted by sevenyearlurk at 6:36 PM on June 2, 2010 [1 favorite]

. . . and on preview, everyone else all made my points for me. Doesn't change the fact that I would love to see how Dream would deal with Slake Moths.

Oh, and Continuity sucks. That is all.posted by KingEdRa at 6:54 PM on June 2, 2010

Actually, all this worrying about Mieville made me miss something-- What happens to Karen Berger, Executive (and Founding) Editor of Vertigo if the imprint is shut down? We're talking about someone whose vision literally changed the way readers, creators and publishers view comics today. It would be TERRIBLE to find out that DC fired her. Whatever hope we have left for the Vertigo stable of characters and creators at DC lies pretty much on her advocacy for them within DC.posted by KingEdRa at 7:31 PM on June 2, 2010

. . . Never mind. They're not shutting it down. (note to self: Read ALL the links before posting)posted by KingEdRa at 7:34 PM on June 2, 2010

TBH I'd definatly wait for a firmer source than Rich Johnson for something as big as Vertigo shutting down entirely...posted by Artw at 7:43 PM on June 2, 2010

When I am king of the world all comics publishers will be required to hand out free prospectuses explaining how and why their assorted multiverses have diverged and recombined.posted by craniac at 8:43 PM on June 2, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'm sad for what could have been, but [engage ludicrous optimism mode] this just frees up Miéville to write scripts for Doctor Who!

I know, I know. The concept behind The Tain would make an amazing Moffat-era Who episode, though.

I guess I'm not terribly bothered by this news, because I follow writers rather than characters

Ditto; neither Marvel nor DC really lend themselves to following a particular character. Just because I loved the Superman of Up, Up and Away! and All-Star doesn't mean I can't think WAR OF THE SUPARMANS or whatever it's called isn't absolute rot.posted by ArmyOfKittens at 12:20 AM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]

To be perfectly honest, I'd be happiest to see him continue working in prose, as he's very well suited to it, and expanding on his own work and ideas, which is much more interesting to me than what his various tropes would look like applied to other peoples properties.

I could be wrong, he could be really great and versatille, and to be honest I'm thinking more of comcis here than about television, which I know less about, and I have to admit here that I'm a little prejudiced, especially when it comes to comics - I've seen plenty of people acclaimed in other fields come and do comes and fail miserably at it, and it always seems like they've underestimated the task or misjudged what comics are actually good at.posted by Artw at 12:30 AM on June 3, 2010

Mieville is a very descriptive writer though, very clear visuals. I think, given his head, with an artist who gets him, this could have been amazing. Always a risk, but even a failed Mieville comic would be fascinating. Swampy, too, is a visual natural for the kind of stuff he writes, fecund and decaying. I do hope they find some way to still make this work.posted by bonehead at 6:41 AM on June 3, 2010

Artw:Heh... people tend not to mention those. Or Cain and Abel (who I guess get a pass due to their biblical forebears).

Am I the only one who has a hard time taking all the Question/Batwoman "Religion of Crime" stuff seriously? Their prophet is Cain -- I have to figure they wouldn't all be such a bunch of hard-asses if they knew their Christ-figure lived in the House of Mystery (which is in Kentucky, of course) and has Wolverine-hair.posted by Amanojaku at 8:20 AM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]

If they screw with hellblazer I'll be crossing the Atlantic and getting punchy.

that said presumably Mr Constantine himself would be happy about this - means he gets to bone Zatanna againposted by garius at 9:46 AM on June 3, 2010

I have to figure they wouldn't all be such a bunch of hard-asses if they knew their Christ-figure lived in the House of Mystery (which is in Kentucky, of course) and has Wolverine-hair.

Also you just know that at some point, maybe in the grim past of teh 90s, maybe right now or in the far of future, some comics creator is going to find some reason to give Superman some Wolverine claws. Who ever does that, has done that, or even contemplates doing that should just die a horrible death immediately.posted by Artw at 9:59 AM on June 3, 2010

Wow, the Wolverine hair thing is going to make for quite the "Name that Character" game later today.

Oh, DC have already done "What if Batman was all gritty and wolveriney and had stupid claw things" with Azrael. It was despicable and stupid, to thepoint where there's a theory that they were basically giving the subset of fans that wanted Batman to be more stabby and killy what they wanted so that they never wanted it again.posted by Artw at 2:15 PM on June 3, 2010

Well, hopefully he can just file the names off and release his story anyway.posted by empath at 5:21 AM on June 11, 2010

Big peice on G. Willow Wilson, whose series Air was cancelled by Vertigo recently. I feel a bit bad about that, as she's local and seems like a nice and very interesting person, but the series didn't quite hold me enough to get it in monthly.posted by Artw at 12:32 PM on June 11, 2010

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