Is it time for a dtr (define the relationship) talk? Is it too soon? How would I go about doing this?

Backstory: This is the continuation of this post. The TL;DR – I’ve been spending time/dating this woman and I’m not sure she’s as into me as I am into her. Last time I checked in, I tried to kiss her and she sort of dodged it.

Update: We met up again since that last awkward time. Got into a comfortable position. I asked her (thanks to the hive mind) if I could kiss her. It got awkward. She said “sure I guess”, staring strictly ahead at the tv. I joked that she sounded so enthusiastic… blah blah blah. We talked for a little bit more. And then I went for it. And she let me. One thing led to another and… well… to be a gentleman I'll just leave it as :)

The next evening I called her to plan out the weekend. We both had to work parts of the weekend - but were both free Sat & Sun nights.

And here’s where I thought things got a little not-so-great:

1. Saturday night she said she couldn’t meet up because her friend was visiting from out of town and she was going to hang out with them. I noticed in other instances she mentions that she has lunch/dinner with friends – but I never get names or genders. I was a bit unhappy that she didn’t invite me to meet her friends. (I had brought her to dinner to meet some of my work friends.) I later saw 1 photo on FB tagged with her from Sat – it looks like it was mostly (hot) guy friends at a bar. I’m feeling jealous. Should I?

2. Sunday night we meet up and end up seeing a movie. Her body language always says “stay away.” In the theater, during some scary scenes, she cringed in the corner of the seat away from me. In the car, sometimes she’s all the way pressed towards the door. Walking to places, her hands are always occupied or in her pockets. When we got back to her place, after a while I kissed her again and we didn’t get much past a bit of making out when she asked me to leave because she had to go to bed for her really early morning shift. (How... frustrating!)

Thinking about it further, I noticed while we make out, she’s somewhat passive. Sure she’s kissing back, etc – but aside from her mouth she’s not doing much. I even made a joke “It’s ok to put your arm around me – you won’t catch anything.” I'm so confused - she'll make out with me, possibly even more

Some other notes: I call her most nights in the last few weeks. She’s never ONCE called me just to see what’s up.

I’m not sure when we’re going to next get together because of our terrible work schedules.

But really, I'm wondering what's going on this in relationship. Do we even have one?

I really like her - she's really smart, pretty worldly, and has a sense of humor that I can agree with.

I've been out of the dating game for a lonnnng time. Is it time for a dtr? Is it too soon? Am I rushing things? How would I go about doing this? Am I being too needy?

And, more importantly, should I call her tonight?

(I feel like the cliche girl who is picking a part a daisy: does she like me? does she like me not? etc)

Yes. Maybe over the phone or in another situation that's not very fraught. Definitely not in the middle of making out.posted by cairdeas at 4:35 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]

It doesn't seem much like a serious relationship to me...you've been on a few dates, had some fun, but gotten a bunch of negative signals at the same time, seemingly almost from day one. I'd have the talk, but with limited expectations, and probably not in person, in case it doesn't go very well.posted by StrikeTheViol at 4:40 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ideally, a DTR comes at a point in a relationship where everyone is feeling really good about how things are going. Sounds like things are still a little up in the air with you two, so I think maybe you should wait a little, see if some of these issues work out on their own. I don't think it would make sense to "define the relationship" in hopes that would fix some of the stuff you don't like (the friend issue, the scheduling issue, the initiation issue).posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:41 PM on March 26, 2012

I call her most nights in the last few weeks. She’s never ONCE called me just to see what’s up.

SHe may be pushing you away because you are coming on way too strong.posted by modernnomad at 4:46 PM on March 26, 2012

She doesn't sound interested. Either that, or she's generally scared of physical intimacy. Or she's not sure.

Anecdata: with my current boyfriend, we started casual. I wasn't into hugging, kissing in public, holding hands, whatever. Though we did text a lot. As the relationship developed (over a few months), I grew more comfortable with this. Part of what worried me was his persistence. You seem to be coming on pretty strong and it's probably scaring her off. She is probably somewhat into you but unsure of her feelings, scared, likes the attention or something. This can be okay, depending on what you're looking for. I don't think you're at a "define the relationship" talk point though and I do think you should date other women casually until something develops naturally -- don't push it.posted by DoubleLune at 4:47 PM on March 26, 2012 [4 favorites]

She's either not that interested, or this is how she behaves in a relationship. I gather this is not what you want out of a relationship. Talk to her about it, but if that's just who she is, speaking as someone who dated a guy who hated physical affection outside of sex, it's time to move on.posted by Dynex at 5:00 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]

I attach here great advice from the wise nickrussell, whose comment I always go to when I myself have any doubts and need additional convincing (about a different question, but similar to yours). Why the comment hasn't been favourited more is beyond me.posted by moiraine at 5:06 PM on March 26, 2012 [3 favorites]

Basically: "When a woman is interested in a man, she will make it happen. And likewise. It's supposed to be easy. If it is not easy, you are on a quest and whilst you may make something happen, it will probably not be what you want. Actually, it will probably be quite terrible for the reality is that you and this woman are not an appropriate match."posted by moiraine at 5:07 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]

Stop calling her. Don't text, don't email. Let her be the one to call you. If this is just what she's like in a relationship then you'll hear from her.

But if I were a wagering MONSTER I'd probably put my money on her not calling you. It really just sounds like she's not as into you as you are her. What I would do in your situation is occupy myself however I was able, and let her be the next one to initiate contact. She won't be sitting up wondering why she's not hearing from you - she knows you're interested.

She's just not into you, and she lacks the spine to actually say anything, or she just likes the attention from you. Either way, don't bother with the talk, I would just fade away from her.posted by kellyblah at 5:24 PM on March 26, 2012 [4 favorites]

Are you sure:

-she's not a virgin?
-she's not very traditional about male/female roles?
-she isn't playing hard to get or waiting for you to win her over?posted by quincunx at 5:25 PM on March 26, 2012

If I was acting like this with a man, it would be because I was young and not that interested in him but felt bad because he was nice or I thought I should be into him but just wasn't. Sometimes women don't realize it's OK to say, "Sorry, big mistake," so they keep going with something even if it doesn't exactly do it for them. My advice for you is to stop pressing, stop calling, stop making jokes, whatever. Even if she is just super shy, weird, etc., do you want to date someone like that?posted by amodelcitizen at 5:26 PM on March 26, 2012 [4 favorites]

I think she sounds like she likes you well enough, but not romantically, and wishes you'd stop trying to hold her hand or whatever. The way you describe your sexualish interactions make it sound like she kind of endures it to keep you quiet...she really doesn't sound very engaged in you and your relationship (and it doesn't sound to me like she even considers it a "relationship").posted by thylacinthine at 5:30 PM on March 26, 2012 [1 favorite]

This isn't a relationship. She's not that into you. If she were, you wouldn't be confused. I've never been in a relationship, but I've been rejected enough times to know this. You should probably just let her go.posted by retypepassword at 5:34 PM on March 26, 2012

I'm sorry, but this doesn't sound puzzling to me. It sounds like she's really not interested. You're putting a lot of work into pursuing her, and it sounds like she's alternating between not putting in any work and actively discouraging you. It sounds like you're trying really hard to interpret her actions in a way where there's some ambiguity, but from the outside it's really very clear that she doesn't want to date you. This is a bad situation for you, because the more work you put in the more you're going to like her (because your brain is going to try to justify all the effort), and the more it's going to hurt when she finally breaks it off.

I wouldn't even bother having a relationship talk, honestly. If you just stop calling her, I'd be very surprised if you ever heard from her again. Sorry again. It always feels shitty to be on the receiving end of this. But the sooner you walk away the sooner you can start feeling better.posted by Ragged Richard at 5:36 PM on March 26, 2012 [3 favorites]

I don't think it's time for an official "define the relationship talk" but it is definitely time to ask her how she's feeling. I don't think it's totally clear that she's not into you, and playing "I won't call her until she calls me" games is childish. You just need to ask her.posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 5:55 PM on March 26, 2012

Sorry to pop back up again, but this little passage is making me shudder a little:

I asked her (thanks to the hive mind) if I could kiss her. It got awkward. She said “sure I guess”, staring strictly ahead at the tv. I joked that she sounded so enthusiastic… blah blah blah. We talked for a little bit more. And then I went for it. And she let me. One thing led to another and… well… to be a gentleman I'll just leave it as :)

I think anytime you ask someone if you can kiss them, and they make any response that isn't enthusiastic is actually a NO.posted by thylacinthine at 5:57 PM on March 26, 2012 [16 favorites]

I think you're not in a relationship, and further, I think she's not that into you.

That said, I agree with cairdeas that you should have the talk in some non-makeout, low stakes situation. There have been a lot of signs that this isn't happening, everyone here has repeatedly told you that, you are frustrated for that very reason, yet you persist in pursuing this chick. I think you need to have this kind of conversation for your own peace of mind.

Just don't be surprised if she isn't very blunt in this conversation.posted by J. Wilson at 6:30 PM on March 26, 2012

She sounds very "meh" about you. Sometimes people keep going on dates with people they don't feel strongly about out of inertia, out of a desire to get laid, or simply because they're working up the courage to call it off. Nothing you've written indicates she's actually interested in you.

I asked her (thanks to the hive mind) if I could kiss her. It got awkward. She said “sure I guess”, staring strictly ahead at the tv. I joked that she sounded so enthusiastic… blah blah blah. We talked for a little bit more. And then I went for it. And she let me. One thing led to another and… well… to be a gentleman I'll just leave it as :)

Dude, any time your description for a sexual situation involves the words "she let me" rather than "she responded eagerly" or similar something is wrong. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, it sounds like she was feeling pretty ambivalent about you, and when you started going for the sexing she figured "Eh, might as well get laid I guess" and went along with it.posted by schroedinger at 6:42 PM on March 26, 2012 [2 favorites]

We only get to hear your side of the story, but based on everything you've told us so far. . .she's not into you at all. Reading through your previous questions, it seems like you two have been out on, what, 6 or 7 times? At that point the fact that she was looking at the TV while you asked to kiss her is all you need to know. Don't try to have "the talk" with her. In the best case scenario she will tell you flat out that she isn't interested and you can move on with your life. In the worst case scenario she will, out of some warped sense of politeness, let you continue to take her out for a few more awkward, passionateless, frustrating dates. Burn her number and don't look back.

I'm going to give you some advice that I wish someone had given me years ago. You seem like you're too much of a nice guy, too eager, too forgiving, and you need to grow a little backbone. The scenario you described above should make you a little ANGRY, not make you wondering whether you should try to make this girl your girlfriend. She avoids your touch and dodges your kisses and yet still allows you to take her on thoughtful, well-planned dates? She can't be bothered to tear her eyes away from the TV when you ask to kiss her? She never calls you even though you call her ever day? This isn't potential girlfriend behavior. It's lame, passive-aggressive, "I don't like this guy but I don't want to be the villain so I will continue to go out hoping that eventually he will catch the message when I sit with three empty seats between us at the movie theater" behavior. You can do better than this. Some day you will - you'll be with someone who is also really excited to be with you - and on that day you'll look back on this episode, laugh, roll your eyes and wonder why you even bothered with The Cringer.posted by minorcadence at 6:43 PM on March 26, 2012 [4 favorites]

Yeah, hate to say it, but I think she's just not that into you and is doing some combination of avoiding confrontation, not wanting to tell you flatly 'no', and potentially using you / allowing herself to be used for some level of physical intimacy but certainly isn't interested in more. I think you know this, from the way you've written the question.

Time to move on. I don't really know if I would have a "define the relationship talk." That sounds awkward as hell. Particularly if the two of you are in the same social circle and have any mutual friends (or you want to remain friends for other reasons), it might be beneficial to not do that. I think there's a significant risk, unless you are very good about managing that conversation in a casual and non-stressful way, of putting her in an awkward situation and coming off (perhaps not fairly, but I think it will be perceived anyway) as very desperate. A lot of people really don't like being pushed into having to tell someone else to back off or that they're not interested, and will view your inability to back off on your own as a strong negative.

Strongly second minorcadence's comments above. You need to set your bar a lot higher than "she let me." Because frankly, that's creepy, and a lot of people will be able to pick up on creepy. You want and deserve someone who wants you, not just someone who will let you make out or have sex with them. Don't settle for less, it's a bad pattern to get into.posted by Kadin2048 at 6:53 PM on March 26, 2012

I think you're just not on the same page - she is casually into you, you're very into her, she's starting to pull away, you sound like you're very much pursuing her.

I would let it drop (stop contacting her for a bit) and see what happens.posted by mleigh at 7:11 PM on March 26, 2012

To be honest, I've acted this way around guys that I thought were attractive in theory, but that I didn't feel too attracted to. However at the time I went along with things because I thought maybe my attraction would grow, and also because I was trying to "give the guy a chance". I also thought he seemed like a worthwhile person to get to know.

So, maybe she is thinking something along these lines. I would advise you, at this point, to back off and start seeing other women. You don't necessarily have to stop contacting this woman completely, but you really need to back off with contact. I think that she isn't interested the way you want her to be. She might be vaguely attracted, but if you keep pushing things the attraction will probably dissipate.

Maybe you can even say to her0 "look, I really like you, but some chemistry seems to be missing. Maybe we can try being friends for a while".

This might help her get clearer with how she sees you.

Also, you deserve to date someone who is into you and attracted to you!posted by bearette at 7:13 PM on March 26, 2012 [3 favorites]

You should not have a define the relationship talk because you are very clearly not in a relationship, or anything like one. That talk comes into play only when it is clear things are moving in a relationship direction. You'll know when that happens. I'm an idiot with this stuff, and I knew.

This woman might be using you, or playing games, or too indirect and timid to tell you how she really feels. All of these things are bad. Move on.

As for how to move on, as everyone's said, you can do two things. You can 1) just stop contacting her, and see what happens, or 2) try to ask her, in a direct but friendly way, what she's thinking. If you choose the no-contact route, be prepared to never hear from her again - or, worse, to get a vague and unexpected text message after two weeks. You should not read anything to that text message, by the way (I have).

If you choose the second option, be prepared for her answer to be vague and unsatisfactory. Why would she suddenly start being direct with you? And if her answer is vague and unsatisfactory, be prepared to say "It's been fun getting to know you, but this isn't really what I'm looking for right now," and walk away.

You'll notice that the end result of both of these is the end of this "relationship." That's the only logical outcome here. Chalk it up to experience, and get back out there quickly - dating rejection is much easier to handle when you know you can find other dates.posted by breakin' the law at 7:43 PM on March 26, 2012

Dude. She is not into you at all. And whatever you've got with this woman does not sound fun. It sounds like torture, honestly.

A relationship is supposed to be fun. You're supposed to be able to tell that the person wants to be with you, wants to be close to you, wants to kiss you, and has a great time with you.

I don't see any of that happening here. And honestly -- tough love alert -- it really seems like there's a decent chance that you are no fun, and that until you loosen up, be more masculine and forceful and not so damned analytical and hesitant, you're going to meet with this kind of frustration.

I would bet that after an evening with you, those carefree and funny "hot guys" are a welcome relief from an awkward evening with a mincing, scared guy who after five dates is still asking timid permission to kiss her.

Those are just some thoughts. You sound like a nice guy, but I think your timidity is going to sabotage you in this and in future relationships with the women you're attracted to. You need to loosen up, get more comfortable in your skin, be more passionate and bold.posted by jayder at 8:33 PM on March 26, 2012 [2 favorites]

Wow this poor girl. It sounds like she doesn't know how to say "no" to you - possibly because she's afraid of being mean, raised to be passive, still wants to be friends, so forth. Back off, stop pressuring her, move on. She is sending you a billion signals saying "no" and you're not reading them because you're so into her that you're convinced she should be into you. Yeah, it sucks, but this just isn't going to work.posted by buteo at 9:07 PM on March 26, 2012 [5 favorites]

Yeah to all of the above, essentially. This woman sounds like the type who was raised to never make people uncomfortable, never cause disagreement or disharmony or confrontation. To be honest, if that's her upbringing, she's probably just as frustrated with you for not reading what (to her) are unmistakable signs she does not want to pursue a romantic relationship with you.

Her response to "May I kiss you" is the equivalent of "I would rather you sat on the other side of the room" or even "When are you leaving?"

It's clear you like her a lot. It's too bad she doesn't feel the same way about you, but she doesn't. Please leave this relationship with your dignity intact. Don't call for a week. You can check in just to check in (email, text, chat message), but if she isn't enthusiastic about wanting to see you, don't call again. That way, you're not dropping her completely coldly... but you know what? I suspect she's going to be relieved, and furthermore, once you meet someone better, so will you.posted by Cathy from Encino at 10:18 PM on March 26, 2012 [3 favorites]

Oh, and with regard to the dtr talk -- if by any chance you're going to disregard the advice here and continue pursuing this woman, for the love of God do not sit down for a talk about defining the relationship. At this point you need to be less possessive, not more, you need to make it clear to her than you are even maybe a little nonchalant, not nervous and eager to lock her down. Go on other dates, let her wonder who else YOU are having fun with.posted by jayder at 7:00 AM on March 27, 2012

Had a similar situation; it's very confusing when someone will have sex with you, even enthusiastically, but send unenthusiastic signals in other regards. You can't really know what's going on in their head without an awkward conversation, but regardless- they're not worth your fucking time. Even if she's in love with you and sucks at expressing it- just move on for someone who communicates better and defuses limerence instead of escalating itposted by MangyCarface at 7:15 AM on March 27, 2012 [1 favorite]

She is really not into you. Evidence:

1. "Sure I guess"

2. In the theater, during some scary scenes, she cringed in the corner of the seat away from me.

3. we didn’t get much past a bit of making out when she asked me to leave because she had to go to bed for her really early morning shift.posted by MsMolly at 8:03 AM on March 27, 2012

If a girl is in to you, she will let you know. If I like a guy, I will text him or call him as soon as I can.

It seems to me as though you are anxious to define the relationship because you are feeling insecure about her feelings for you. However, I don't think that trying to force a label on this relationship is going to fix those insecurities; if you did talk, and she did say that you were in a relationship, but continued to act the same way, would you really be happy?

As others pointed out, she doesn't seem to really be into you or this relationship. Maybe she has issues being frank about when she's not interested in someone. Or, possibly, she might some other outstanding issues with how she acts when she's dating someone. Or maybe you're not picking up on "back-off" signals she feels she's sending clearly.

But... I doubt that the act of labeling this as a relationshop isn't going to change her behavior.
And if her behavior now isn't making you happy, then why would you try to solidify this relationship for the future?

and, this is very wise. please consider this in all your future endeavours: Dude, any time your description for a sexual situation involves the words "she let me" rather than "she responded eagerly" or similar, something is wrong. posted by vivid postcard at 12:21 PM on March 27, 2012 [1 favorite]

I doubt that the act of labeling IS going to change her behavior. IS. typing is hard.posted by vivid postcard at 12:22 PM on March 27, 2012

I just ran this question past my GF, and she made a couple of good points. She thinks the woman may be interested in you and be very shy. She also thinks that your timidity, your inability to relax and just kiss her and be physical without a lot of nervousness, is creating frigidity in your interactions and dates. To quote my GF:

"No matter how bored she is, if she's still sleeping with him and going on dates and answering his calls, she must be into him a little.

"Women don't want to be on dates with guys they don't like. They would much rather sit at home and watch TV.

"Maybe if it was a little more loose, she would relax. Currently things seem very frigid.

"And say this -- and you can quote it -- FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T CALL HER TONIGHT -- it's too much.

"She doesn't want to feel suffocated five dates in. Even if he doesn't, he needs to pretend he has a life, pretend he's got something going on outside of her.

"And it's 2012. Maybe texting to check in is more appropriate than calling. It's a lot less awkward and overbearing to get a how is your day text, and not have to drop what you're doing to talk on the phone."posted by jayder at 12:48 PM on March 27, 2012

I guess it's possble that she's into you and is just very shy, but that would be a dangerous thing to assume.

I'm concerned that this woman's unwillingness or inability to be verbally direct, plus your unwillingness or inability to read her discouraging body language, led to you coercing her into having sex with you.

It sounds to me like she thinks she needs to have a solid "justification" for not wanting to have sex, such as Sunday night's "I have to work really early tomorrow morning." She may not think "I just don't want to" is a good enough reason, or a reason that would fly with you, especially if you've taken her out on some nice dates and spent money on her.

I think that for both of your sakes, you should not pursue her further, but if you don't take this advice, please don't do anything physical with her unless she's absolutely clear with you, both verbally and in her body language, that she wants it.posted by Mila at 1:58 PM on March 27, 2012 [2 favorites]

As usual, lots of great insight and thoughts here.

That said, I'm a little perturbed this comment:
>led to you coercing her into having sex with you.

Whoa. Couldn't this be interpreted as calling me a rapist?

This was purely voluntary and I didn't put any pressure on her. I don't want to go into details, but there were definitely a bunch of voluntary actions before the actual act.

Nonetheless, I had no contact with her last night. She didn't call me or email me.

I'm thinking of doing the same tonight as well. It's hard though. I was really hoping to see her this week. I was even thinking of buying some flowers for her spartan place - but maybe that would be too overbearing based on the feedback above.posted by StrictlyVague at 3:53 PM on March 27, 2012 [1 favorite]

Whoa. Couldn't this be interpreted as calling me a rapist?

It sounds like she consented, so no. But from your description of her body language during your kissing and make-out session, it sounds like she didn't want the physical contact. I think she felt pressured -- even if you didn't intend to pressure her. This is what I meant by "coercing." It's a gray area that you should steer clear of.posted by Mila at 4:17 PM on March 27, 2012 [2 favorites]

I mean, if she doesn't want to date you, she shouldn't accept dates with you and say things like "I'll miss you when you take your trip." On the other hand, if she's cowering and cringing and keeping her hands to herself, you should be very concerned and get this straightened out to both of your satisfaction before you proceed further with the physical stuff.

Maybe she likes you as a person but is afraid of having a physical relationship, and afraid to tell you. Who knows? She can't or won't be clear with you. I can understand why you're frustrated, but consider that she may be very vulnerable.posted by Mila at 4:37 PM on March 27, 2012

I'm thinking of doing the same tonight as well. It's hard though. I was really hoping to see her this week. I was even thinking of buying some flowers for her spartan place - but maybe that would be too overbearing based on the feedback above.

It would be too overbearing. Don't do it.

Consider the imbalance here: She is incredibly guarded and walled off and has never once called you. You are having a hard time not calling her after two days.

A gulf this wide is not a good thing.

Let her be the one to call you. It will get harder, but do it. Just wait it out. If she wants to see you or talk to you, she'll make it happen. If she doesn't - and that's kind of where the smart money is here, honestly - then she won't, and you can move on. Give it a week. If you hear from her in that week, great. If you don't, you're done. Or more accurately, you were already done and you didn't realize it.

Even if she actually is into you, you should honestly probably walk away from this one. Her whole deal is stressing you out. I don't see that changing.posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 5:55 PM on March 27, 2012 [1 favorite]

If you two hadn't had sex yet, I'd agree with the advice to just cease all contact. But since you did have sex, and this was after some days or weeks of you calling her almost every day, she could get the wrong idea if you abruptly stop with no explanation. She might think you pursued her until you got what you wanted and then dropped her like a hot rock. Don't compound the misunderstandings.

I would call or send a short email saying, "Mary, I've enjoyed your company over the past few weeks, but I'm fairly sure that you aren't interested in me in the same way I'm interested in you. If I'm wrong about this, then we communicate very differently and are probably not well matched anyway. I'm going to leave you alone now. I wish all the best for you." THEN stop contacting her.

In the unlikely event that she contacts you to say, "No, wait, I was interested," you should reiterate that dating is not a good idea because your communication styles are too different. Because it's the truth, even if you can't see that yet. You will absolutely meet someone who is a better match for you.posted by Mila at 8:07 PM on March 27, 2012 [1 favorite]

OP: Maybe it's because I have some fairly recent memories of an experience not unlike this, and I find myself hoping for a positive outcome for anyone dealing with this sort of thing, but - update?posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 9:07 AM on April 23, 2012 [1 favorite]

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