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Again, why does it matter what is distressing to Moeka? If you aren't willing to hold her accountable for her actions in other timelines then I can turn the argument around on you and say this. What Okabe does to her does not matter because in the end he is going to change it into a time line where their little skirmish didn't happen in the first place!

:P That would be, as I've said several times, basic human empathy. People often hurt other people, yes, but it's no good to want to blindly hurt them back. If there's a better way available, it's worth it to take it.

As far as the accountability of Moeka vs. Okabe, as Panzerfan mentioned: Reading Steiner. It's true enough however that whatever Okabe does, it doesn't really matter either way (except as a reflection of his character as the hero the audience follows).

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I umm... don't know what to say.

Either you are a master martial artist, in which case, you should know that amateurs should not casually do these to people except in case of extreme emergency and tons of practice or you have no idea of these things at all, and are trivializing the years of training that soldiers, police officers, and martial artists need to properly restrain someone.

It does not matter if you are stronger and more agile to someone if they adequately resist. Beating the shit out of them is easy, but restraining them when they are resisting without severely hurting them is not as easy as you put up to be.

In any case, I am very glad Okabe didn't take advice from you otherwise we'd have to reset several times.

:P More like a couple weeks (if that). Years of training provide experience, not the competence for a basic skill. Experience that you don't need for restraining a catatonic person sitting in the corner of a room.

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How exactly are you gonna display empathy in these cases. You don't have the time to draw up a profile in them when they themselves aren't rational.

And hey, results speak. Giving Moeka a chance to know the truth and perhaps not off herself. Hmm, I think stopping someone from killing themselves, that counts as empathy, does it?

Okabe's main feature is his empathy. Of course he wouldn't actually leave Moeka to die. You're not gonna claim grabbing her phone or punching her in the face was actually empathy, though, are you? Okabe showed just barely enough empathy that he will be able to achieve a Good End in this story (by gaining Moeka's cooperation with regards to the IBN 1500 and FB). This doesn't change that his initial assault upon Moeka featured nothing of the sort.

:P More like a couple weeks (if that). Years of training provide experience, not the competence for a basic skill. Experience that you don't need for restraining a catatonic person sitting in the corner of a room.

Uhh... experience is everything when it comes to the matter. Knowing to do something, and actually having the experience to do it right, and without flaw is critical to not getting someone hurt. And uhh, someone needs to teach it to you.

Plus, applying it to a practical situation as well.

And catatonic? She reacted viciously to her phone and would not give it up without a fight. Whether you like it or not, she was gonna react violently and not easily subdued.

Anyhow, if you cannot comprehend why cutting someone's oxygen supply off is dangerous and why you can't just learn these incapacitation skills instantly, I really think you should stop posting on this matter. Unless you tell me you regularly subdue dangerous people safely on a regular basis.

Tl;dr it's much easier to hurt someone than subdue someone.

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Okabe's main feature is his empathy. Of course he wouldn't actually leave Moeka to die. You're not gonna claim grabbing her phone or punching her in the face was actually empathy, though, are you? Okabe showed just barely enough empathy that he will be able to achieve a Good End in this story (by gaining Moeka's cooperation with regards to the IBN 1500 and FB). This doesn't change that his initial assault upon Moeka featured nothing of the sort.

No, I would not defend that as being ideal. It just makes sense in context, and like I've been saying, you've been holding him up to unrealistic expectations and calling him stupid by suggesting arguably worse alternatives.

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As such, Okabe's failure to demonstrate empathy for Moeka until after he's beaten and emotionally wrecked her is pretty much his failure as a hero.

Sol... don't you think Okabe kind of has a right to hate (or at least strongly dislike) Moeka based on how he witnessed her kill Mayuri in cold blood?

In my view, Okabe shows empathy simply by restraining himself to delivering a lone punch, and saying some harsh words to Moeka while he had her pinned down.

If he had went any further than he did, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but the fact is that this is pretty restrained for a man confronting the person who he equates with his best friend's killer. Personally, I see such restraint as a sign of basic human empathy; a recognition that this is another human being that he's dealing with here, so while taking a measure of revenge on her is understandable, he shouldn't totally brutalize or lynch her either. But for Okabe to not want to take any measure of revenge on Moeka would not merely be showing human empathy, it would indeed be him acting like a total Saint, as Archon alluded to. And that's a standard that's higher than what I'm prepared to expect of an anime character outside of a magical girl anime.

Fact is that many people in Okabe's position would have gone all the way here. They would have literally killed Moeka, and/or brutalized her like she was a Jigsaw victim in a Saw movie. They likely would have considered it justice in the name of Mayuri. Personally, I'm thankful that Okabe isn't that much into revenge, at least. Going into this episode, I was expecting Okabe's inevitable meeting with Moeka to be dark and brutal, it just went on longer than I thought it would, thus starting to be discomforting to me after awhile. Did people really think that Okabe would go easy on Moeka given how he witnessed her kill Mayuri?

I didn't like this darker side of Okabe, and I hope we don't see much more of it, but given the extenuating circumstances, I think you're weighing it way too heavily against him.

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Okabe failed to either neutralize her as a capable enemy or reach out to her as someone who could be saved.

That's simply not true. The punch did in fact neutralize her (i.e. it helped him get the phone from her).

I think that punching her was the safest course of action in the situation he was in, namely engaged in a violent struggle with a semi catatonic person who is capable of killing. In her current state she's a danger to him and herself, so he stunned her and was able to get away with the phone safely. I just threw the idea out there because it is possible. Like I said Okabe probably would not be able to take advantage of it because he's on the verge of a breakdown already so adding however many weeks it would take to become proficient would probably be too much for him.

Just throwing this out there and Okabe's obviously not in the right mental state for it, but given time leap technology he actually has as much time as he needs to learn judo.

Not necessarily. With each time leap, Okarin runs the risk of jumping to a strand where he does not successfully make it back to the time machine to do another time leap. Just because we've always seen him successfully time leap as many times as he wants does not mean that he will continue to do so. I'm not a game player, but I can easily imagine a Bad End where Okarin loses his time leap abilities (losing the equipment for example) and gets stuck in a time strand that's absolutely horrid.

With d-mail he runs that risk because he can't predict what will change, but time leaping just transfers his memories to an earlier point in the same limeline so assuming he is only leaping back to a point where the equipment exists he knows the timing of most events and it is relatively safe (everyone else will do exactly what they did the first time unless his actions change what they do). It can't change the divergence level so it's useless for his overall goal, but unless he destroys the equipment himself or indirectly it will still be there.

With d-mail he runs that risk because he can't predict what will change, but time leaping just transfers his memories to an earlier point in the same limeline so assuming he is only leaping back to a point where the equipment exists he knows the timing of most events and it is relatively safe (everyone else will do exactly what they did the first time unless his actions change what they do). It can't change the divergence level so it's useless for his overall goal, but unless he destroys the equipment himself or indirectly it will still be there.

Nah, timeleap is the same as D-mail. It's impossble to travel back to the same timeline. The action of time travel itself creates the divergence. The Reading Steiner doesn't kick in when Okabe timeleaps because the divergence is so minor. Due the the 48 hours limitation, the timespan is just too short for the Butterfly Effect to make a major impact. The only different between timeleap and D-mail is the contents being sent and how far it can be sent. And according to Suzuha's Attractor Field Theory, the invention of time machine is one of the convergence point in the Alpha Worldine. It is inevitable. If Okabe is to destroy the phone microwave, for some reasons he will definitely build another one in a near future.

I don't think we have enough information on her past and how FB manipulated her to know for sure if she's a victim or not. I'm willing to believe she's a victim, even if she was willing to kill someone, but I still think it was neccessary for Okabe to do what he did, especially forcing her to confront the fact that FB had abandoned her and that she would've committed suicide. He's essentially saved Moeka's life (assuming she doesn't commit suicide that is)

But she still dies in this time line because The World dictates it. The only thing that's changed is how she dies just like Mayuri. She was originally going to die via suicide (episode prologue showed her jumping off a roof) but the time machine changed that. Now she dies a bit later than expected.

And...I have no problems with the punch and kick that Okabe gave Moeka.

The world after Hitler is arguably better than the world before World War II.

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Originally Posted by Sheba

Please, do not use Adolf Hitler as example ever. For all the every horrible things that have happened in World War II, we may not have things like the decolonization to happen, various people on Asuki would not even fucking born, for their birth are results of circumstances spawned from World War II.

1) I don't know where you get the idea of justifying Adolf Hitler and his actions but I'm quite sure the world is not better for those who have lost entire families to the war and the atrocities he committed. You are defending his actions and thus defending and condoning genocide, racism and mass slaughter. I'm thinking maybe you need to touch up on some history and get a new perspective on this.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling

:P That would be, as I've said several times, basic human empathy. People often hurt other people, yes, but it's no good to want to blindly hurt them back. If there's a better way available, it's worth it to take it.

2) What I find particularly astonishing is that you're asking for a good plot, and in return, you want the protagonist to do things that are out of character and things that would essentially destroy the realism and plausibility that holds the plot together.

Okarin's struggle in this episode showed empathy as well as a host of other thoughts and emotions. That's what it means to be human and that's part of what makes his character so great and believable. What he displayed in that scene was human nature. He's not Batman, he's not Bruce Lee and he's not Stephen Hawking. So no, I don't expect him to do a three point submission or a blood choke (whatever that is) or go and buy a taser because the minute he does that, this entire plot is NOT believable.

But hey, maybe you would understand that if you actually had gotten off your high horse, SAT and WATCHED the previous episode (y'know the one you said you couldn't even sit through). That might help clear things up a little bit.

and 3) This is NOT a gender issue.

Seriously, and I think this is what everyone else has been trying to say... People have been punched for doing less. One punch is not heinous, in fact...everything else Okarin did after that (the alleged rape) should be considered far worse.

Anyhow, if you cannot comprehend why cutting someone's oxygen supply off is dangerous and why you can't just learn these incapacitation skills instantly, I really think you should stop posting on this matter. Unless you tell me you regularly subdue dangerous people safely on a regular basis.

Tl;dr it's much easier to hurt someone than subdue someone.

This may pretty much be a difference in experience/upbringing, but to my knowledge/understanding, concussive blows are much more dangerous/permanently damaging than a minor asphyxiation. The punch honestly came off as very bad to me, and I also indicated that I thought a quick chokehold would be safer in reality than putting Moeka out by way of a blow to the head. I think that trivializing the danger of Moeka's punch to the face itself shows a dangerous lack of awareness or responsibility. It is not okay to punch someone in the head unless you want to permanently damage them.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R

Sol... don't you think Okabe kind of has a right to hate (or at least strongly dislike) Moeka based on how he witnessed her kill Mayuri in cold blood?

In my view, Okabe shows empathy simply by restraining himself to delivering a lone punch, and saying some harsh words to Moeka while he had her pinned down.

If he had went any further than he did, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but the fact is that this is pretty restrained for a man confronting the person who he equates with his best friend's killer. Personally, I see such restraint as a sign of basic human empathy; a recognition that this is another human being that he's dealing with here, so while taking a measure of revenge on her is understandable, he shouldn't totally brutalize or lynch her either. But for Okabe to not want to take any measure of revenge on Moeka would not merely be showing human empathy, it would indeed be him acting like a total Saint, as Archon alluded to. And that's a standard that's higher than what I'm prepared to expect of an anime character outside of a magical girl anime.

From my personal perspective, hate doesn't even make sense until you have acquired a reasonable understanding of motivation. Just because someone has done wrong to you, doesn't make them evil, because this world is to put it simply too small for all of us and we're already trampling over other lives as it is. So for me Mayuri's death is in itself a very poor reason to succumb to hate. The selfish response of simplistically saying "You hurt me or mine, that means you are my enemy and I don't give a damn about your circumstances" is to me by comparison the single most destructive way of approaching the universe.

Contrarily, I can actually somewhat understand Okabe's frustration at the very moment he witnessed Moeka's complete obsession with FB, and the way she was not even responding to anything else. It's not a "You killed Mayuri!" thing, but a "Do you even realize what you have done? You killed Mayuri for something miserable like this?" sort of feeling.

However, implicit in the act of "understanding, then hate" is that you already understand. And in this way, resisting the emotional descent into hate is always possible.

It's not really about whether Okabe has a 'right' or not; humans will always do what they do, regardless of its legitimacy. I am not judging him so much as a person than judging his actions in this single particular circumstance. I think it is always unfortunate when hate is chosen over acceptance (of reality, at least) because hate ultimately does not even do anything for the hateful person him/herself. I don't think it takes a saint not to hate others so much as simply an awareness of the burden that you yourself represent and a willingness to seek understanding.

In any case, foregoing hate itself does not deny resistance or the ability to take action when necessary. Self-sacrifice might be what I would refer to as sainthood. Self-restraint is, in my opinion, nothing all that extraordinary.

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Fact is that many people in Okabe's position would have gone all the way here. They would have literally killed Moeka, and/or brutalized her like she was a Jigsaw victim in a Saw movie. They likely would have considered it justice in the name of Mayuri. Personally, I'm thankful that Okabe isn't that much into revenge, at least. Going into this episode, I was expecting Okabe's inevitable meeting with Moeka to be dark and brutal, it just went on longer than I thought it would, thus starting to be discomforting to me after awhile. Did people really think that Okabe would go easy on Moeka given how he witnessed her kill Mayuri?

I didn't like this darker side of Okabe, and I hope we don't see much more of it, but given the extenuating circumstances, I think you're weighing it way too heavily against him.

:P You could say intellectually I'm something of a Buddhist. But indeed, this is the standard to which I hold myself so I don't think it's too much to ask of a main character (Okabe might not be perfect, but in the end he is still acting out these generic good intentions of empathy/sympathy). Whatever the feelings of various members of the audience, for the nature of Steins;Gate as a work and the culture it came from the idea that Okabe could have lynched or brutalized Moeka to exact revenge on her was, to me, never even a remote possibility.

1) I don't know where you get the idea of justifying Adolf Hitler and his actions but I'm quite sure the world is not better for those who have lost entire families to the war and the atrocities he committed. You are defending his actions and thus defending and condoning genocide, racism and mass slaughter. I'm thinking maybe you need to touch up on some history and get a new perspective on this.

.

The hell are you smoking, read a little closer and THINK!!! There is no way I could be totally okay with Hitler's course of action. I don't approve it. I have considered changes in history and thought about their consequences. And after a bit of maturity, NO! I will NOT change any bit of history IF I could time leap, I will NOT prevent Jeanne d'Arc from getting burnt, I will NOT prevent Lincoln from getting assassinated, I wll not tell Napoleon to give a chance to rifles and steam-powered machines and I will definitely NOT help Adolf Hitler to get into art school. Because even if I do it with the best of intentions, I might trigger changes beyond my control, and cause a paradox that may more than likely prevent my birth or the birth of friends, or the birth of people that may contritube to the greater good of Humanity. Most of eveything, from the Black Plague to the Crusades, and everyone, from Aristotle to Hitler, have a role, as tragic or as noble, to play in History.

Where the fucking fuck do you get the idea I approve genocide, mass slaughter and racism? Don't even dare saying that to my face, because my parents' families WERE victims of a genocide, and as an asian living in the 1980s in Europe I have been on the receiving end of racism, because apparently the northern africans of my town were so frustrated with the racism of the local police that they decided it would be a good idea to vent their frustration on the ching chong I am, and I hated every single seconds of it. And I will not change any of it if I had the power.

The best way for a person to learn empathy is probably to experience receiving it themself. The fact that Okabe is the one who demonstrates the most empathy is probably the reason why he's the hero/main char in the first place. As such, Okabe's failure to demonstrate empathy for Moeka until after he's beaten and emotionally wrecked her is pretty much his failure as a hero. Without that, Okabe is pretty much a generic chump acting recklessly on his selfish emotions.

Can you please tell me how one is supposed to show empathy to someone who is completely unresponsive to words and reason? She hardly even registered the fact that someone entered her room and tried speaking to her until Okabe tried yanking the phone off of her. You tell me, how do you deal with someone who doesn't listen to you at all because they're too fixated with their phone and aren't focusing on anything but that? The least you could feel is be annoyed, and if it wasn't a serious issue, let them be. However, not just Mayuri's life, but Moeka's life as also at stake if Okabe didn't do something drastic to get to her, because when we saw what she was doing (typing FB repeatedly on the phone while in a state of utter, complete delirium), I'd have thought it quite obvious reason wouldn't get to her, and I had more important things to do like saving her life and my "sister."

What Okabe did was the most emphatic thing: lay it all out in front of her against her will. You could call it tough love, and this is what someone who'se witness a very important person to him die dozens of times did. If you saw someone who'se as good as a sister to you die that many times, tell me that you wouldn't feel any resentment toward her? Even then, Okabe wasn't trying to kill her, but help her, even if against her will (which would lead to her death, hardly a favorable outcome for you, I presume), and most importantly help Mayuri, which was his main objective to start with.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Okabe himself receives plenty of support from say, for example, Kurisu. Moeka is completely alone. Whoever is more the 'victim' here it is clear that Okabe has more of himself to give out to others.

In the end, I'm hardly 'praising' or saying Moeka is admirable here either. So if you want to say that both of them are simply equally misfortunate, and that's all either of them are: victims, then go right ahead, I won't argue. Just don't pick one of them over the other.

That's all well and good, but you overlook the fact that Moeka is the person who kills/eventually kills/potentially kills Mayuri, the one that Okabe is out to save. Moeka may be more of a victim than Okabe in this entire ordeal, but his resentment toward her is completely justified, not to mention the fact that Okabe needed to use drastic measures to get the message across to her. He laid out the facts to her, told her what would happen if she kept wasting herself the way she was as clearly as anyone could. He couldn't possibly do that if he simply sat down and started talking while Moeka was still holding on to her phone.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I don't believe for any sentient human there is such a thing as 'unable to exercise empathy'. It's as simple as not giving in to hate, as understanding that the other party is just another human just like you. The important thing was recognizing "Is she a threat? Or is she not?" and treating her with the due respect accordingly. Okabe failed to either neutralize her as a capable enemy or reach out to her as someone who could be saved. His use of force, and punching her, was an entirely pointless, unnecessary action. It was an impulsive, emotional decision and an expression of his weaker qualities as a human being.

Pointless? She was delirious! Simple words never would've reached her. Take out the source of her obsession, her delirium, and the message would eventually get to her. He told her about what would happen in the future precisely because he understands Moeka is another human being like him, a victim of circumstance. That aside, he needed to phone in order to send the D-mail. He couldn't have done it if he let Moeka keep it. He didn't cave in until after he seriously started trying, and not punching her would've led to a futile struggle for him.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Okabe's main feature is his empathy. Of course he wouldn't actually leave Moeka to die. You're not gonna claim grabbing her phone or punching her in the face was actually empathy, though, are you? Okabe showed just barely enough empathy that he will be able to achieve a Good End in this story (by gaining Moeka's cooperation with regards to the IBN 1500 and FB). This doesn't change that his initial assault upon Moeka featured nothing of the sort.

If punching Moeka would allow him to save Mayuri (and Moeka in the process), then he has every right to. Like I said, he couldn't just sit down and talk to her when she was in a state of delirium due to her phone obsession.

2) What I find particularly astonishing is that you're asking for a good plot, and in return, you want the protagonist to do things that are out of character and things that would essentially destroy the realism and plausibility that holds the plot together.

Okarin's struggle in this episode showed empathy as well as a host of other thoughts and emotions. That's what it means to be human and that's part of what makes his character so great and believable. What he displayed in that scene was human nature. He's not Batman, he's not Bruce Lee and he's not Stephen Hawking. So no, I don't expect him to do a three point submission or a blood choke (whatever that is) or go and buy a taser because the minute he does that, this entire plot is NOT believable.

But hey, maybe you would understand that if you actually had gotten off your high horse, SAT and WATCHED the previous episode (y'know the one you said you couldn't even sit through). That might help clear things up a little bit.

lol. Okabe's and Moeka's fight in this chapter already stretched the bounds of plausibility. Why did Moeka never grab a knife? How could Moeka's neighbour actually misconstrue that clamour as a make-out session? Knocking Moeka out would've been far more believable, and it wasn't a requirement that it be perfect or gentle.

Okabe's actions might've been human nature, yes (that covers a very wide range FYI, Bruce Lee and Stephen Hawking included :P), but I find it a stretch to say that witnessing human nature is always great and 'enjoyable'. Sometimes human nature can be real ugly, and that's a sad thing; it's good to be aware, of course, but it hardly needs to be celebrated.

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Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi

shortened

No one said that Okabe shouldn't have tried to get the phone, which the majority of your post was based on. There are just two points here, which I've gotten tired of repeating, so maybe this will be the last: If Okabe's goal was solely the phone, he should've knocked Moeka out to make things easier for both of them. Alternatively, if Okabe's goal was to open Moeka's eyes, he could've done it without physically beating her in the face.

If Okabe's goal was solely the phone, he should've knocked Moeka out to make things easier for both of them. Alternatively, if Okabe's goal was to open Moeka's eyes, he could've done it without physically beating her in the face.

Okabe's first intention was to interrogate Moeka about her message. Only when she was clearly not responding, he tried to forcibly grab her phone.
You cannot question an unconscious person, so your suggested methods don't work. Heck, if the problem was just getting the phone, he could have waited until Moeka fell asleep! But Okabe didn't think that far, he just wanted to send the D-mail as soon as possible. This is human and understandable.
I don't blame him, in fact I praise him for being so restrained and even apologizing afterwards to Mayuri's killer. And if you say that Moeka won't kill anyone in this particular timeline, I can retort that even Okabe's actions will be erased after he sends the right D-mail.

No one said that Okabe shouldn't have tried to get the phone, which the majority of your post was based on. There are just two points here, which I've gotten tired of repeating, so maybe this will be the last: If Okabe's goal was solely the phone, he should've knocked Moeka out to make things easier for both of them. Alternatively, if Okabe's goal was to open Moeka's eyes, he could've done it without physically beating her in the face.

1. No matter how he knocked her out, I'm quite certain that you and other people would've found the action morally lacking due to the gender issue. And trying to knock her out would've led to a struggle anyways and possibly ended in Okabe punching her after all.

2. I'm tired of repeating this too: reason does not reach one who is in delirium. By the sound of your posts, you would prefer if he had simply talked to her, but as Gohan78 pointed out, it's as good as talking to someone who'se unconscious.

A blood choke would in fact have been safer than Okabe's full-out punch. And frankly it's not that complicated. As I said, it's the struggle over having the phone taken away from her that is most distressing thing for Moeka herself, and the most inefficient and dangerous thing for Okabe.

Is that so? Then I guess you wouldn't mind finding out for yourself then? I mean it's totally not dangerous and a very easy thing to do right? Bear in mind it should ideally be on a resisting person (prefferably yourself)...

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Originally Posted by orion

But she still dies in this time line because The World dictates it. The only thing that's changed is how she dies just like Mayuri. She was originally going to die via suicide (episode prologue showed her jumping off a roof) but the time machine changed that. Now she dies a bit later than expected.