rai wrote:i like that . so in that sense all the realized Dzogchenpas are teaching Dzogchen constantly whether they verbalize it or not, right?

edit. it would be kind of skilful not to verbalize it and teach on lojong all the time, whoever "gets it" - fine but those who don't at least will do some lojong instead of passing time on endless conceptualization of the "highest" view.

No it wouldn't be skillful. Because then no one would get it for sure, sorry.

Pero wrote:No it wouldn't be skillful. Because then no one would get it for sure, sorry.

haha why not? DI is DI, no?

There are three transmissions. Oral, symbolic and direct. Without the first two you won't be able to get the third. Unless if you're a special person who already was a great practitioner in the past. In other words, if Rinpoche would only teach lojong, lojong is all that you'd get.

deepbluehum wrote:Sure, but lojong is not DI.

Right.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

heart wrote:Samantabhadra don't have any ignorance, and so he have no mind (sem) either. Sentient beings have mind (sem) and ignorance. I received very elaborate teachings on this over the years.

/magnus

Samantabhadra had ignorance, but never experienced dualism because he recognized the arising of the basis as his own display.

Yes it has Marigpas: first marigpa called unelightenment of single self (rgub dagnyind dchigpa) and second is called innate unelightenment (lhangchig skyespa). Third marigpa with no return to the state of Samantabhadra is called unelightenment of imaginaries (kuntu brtagspa). So it is not the case after recognizing Rigpa one can have next moment again the Mind because there was a fault in this Rigpa. Rigpa has all qualities since the beginning, one o them is the potentiality to manifest the Mind too, but somehow it is already spontaneous accomplished (lhundrup) not causing dualism (as the Samantabhadra does it) or not. This is fully evident during self-liberation or not in one's own bardo of dharmata and is cultivated during real practice of dzogchen during lifetime when you are in the state of Rigpa or not. For example visions of thogal have nothing to do with the Mind, but it is possible to have breaks for ordinary life activity. Or can you correct me?

There's no re-enlightenment. Enlightenment is permanent. Rigpa does not manifest as mind. Rigpa does not manifest at all. Rigpa is just your knowledge of the base. All the manifesting is marigpa. Once you finally resolve the view, there is exhaustion of phenomena.

Pero wrote:No it wouldn't be skillful. Because then no one would get it for sure, sorry.

haha why not? DI is DI, no?

There are three transmissions. Oral, symbolic and direct. Without the first two you won't be able to get the third. Unless if you're a special person who already was a great practitioner in the past.

a ok, it make sense! thanks!

Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

deepbluehum wrote:All the manifesting is marigpa. Once you finally resolve the view, there is exhaustion of phenomena.

Even the visions of thogal? You know the exhaustion is the forth vision only.

Until then, there's no buddhahood for the thogal practitioner. You are on the path until the fourth vision finishes. But, now consider this bit from Tilopa, "The uncreated ground of all is clear of the obscuring veil of propensities. Do not engage in meditation and post-meditation, but rest in the uncreated essence. Thus, outer appearances, inner perceptions and intellectual faculties are exhausted." Consider this from ChNN, "if you remain in the state of guru yoga you are a PERFECT Dzogchen practitioner." Tilopa, "When you become infused with the guru's blessing you will be liberated!"

Topic: FREE FROM LIMITATIONS

How you arrive at the state of exhaustion of your mind is up to you. As far as I can tell, ChNN, in every single retreat, extends the bridge for you to cross to the other shore. If you can cross into the state of the guru, you are Samantabhadra. It doesn't mean you are Samantabhadra minus four visions. He has never ever said that. There are three levels of intensity with which you can practice, semde, longde and upadesha. People get pretty jazzed up about Thogal, because there is solid visual evidence of what the guru is talking about plus all the intrigue around the secrecy. And yes they are "wisdom appearances" with the caveat that they are not yet completely pure, because the bodhisattva Samantabhadra, before becoming Buddha saw the five lights, but was not yet buddha. He was not buddha until, based on past knowledge, knew those appearances to be self-appearance. So seeing the appearances of Thogal are not the visions of a Buddha. You are not a buddha until the visions exhaust. And technically, as Malcolm has said many times, the five lights are not actually from pure winds. You purify them in the process of the system. What Thogal is showing you is guru yoga in direct perception. Rinpoche teaches Ati guru yoga. It is upadesha level.

deepbluehum wrote:All the manifesting is marigpa. Once you finally resolve the view, there is exhaustion of phenomena.

Even the visions of thogal? You know the exhaustion is the forth vision only.

Until then, there's no buddhahood for the thogal practitioner. You are on the path until the fourth vision finishes. But, now consider this bit from Tilopa, "The uncreated ground of all is clear of the obscuring veil of propensities. Do not engage in meditation and post-meditation, but rest in the uncreated essence. Thus, outer appearances, inner perceptions and intellectual faculties are exhausted." Consider this from ChNN, "if you remain in the state of guru yoga you are a PERFECT Dzogchen practitioner." Tilopa, "When you become infused with the guru's blessing you will be liberated!"

Topic: FREE FROM LIMITATIONS

How you arrive at the state of exhaustion of your mind is up to you. As far as I can tell, ChNN, in every single retreat, extends the bridge for you to cross to the other shore. If you can cross into the state of the guru, you are Samantabhadra. It doesn't mean you are Samantabhadra minus four visions. He has never ever said that. There are three levels of intensity with which you can practice, semde, longde and upadesha. People get pretty jazzed up about Thogal, because there is solid visual evidence of what the guru is talking about plus all the intrigue around the secrecy. And yes they are "wisdom appearances" with the caveat that they are not yet completely pure, because the bodhisattva Samantabhadra, before becoming Buddha saw the five lights, but was not yet buddha. He was not buddha until, based on past knowledge, knew those appearances to be self-appearance. So seeing the appearances of Thogal are not the visions of a Buddha. You are not a buddha until the visions exhaust. And technically, as Malcolm has said many times, the five lights are not actually from pure winds. You purify them in the process of the system. What Thogal is showing you is guru yoga in direct perception. Rinpoche teaches Ati guru yoga. It is upadesha level.

What I wrote in the post above: the 3 visions of thogal are the second Marigpa which can have Samantabhadra and yet return (forth vision). All of them are not third marigpa where is the Mind. Please read Longchen Rabjam, Tulku Thondup: "The Practice of Dzogchen", Snow Lion Publications, 2002, ISBN 1559391790.

Mariusz wrote:What I wrote in the post above: the 3 visions of thogal are the second Marigpa which can have Samantabhadra and yet return (forth vision). All of them are not third marigpa where is the Mind. Please read Longchen Rabjam, Tulku Thondup: "The Practice of Dzogchen", Snow Lion Publications, 2002, ISBN 1559391790.

I've studied the text. It doesn't seem to be well translated or the concepts don't jibe somehow or perhaps I don't follow your writing well. This presentation is a bit confusing and strange. Longchenpa was a great teacher, but I'm not that jazzed about his writing. The three visions of thogal are still marigpa because you don't recognize them to be your own appearance yet. There is still some dualism vision. The visions themselves are pure, they are neither samsara nor nirvana, but you are not Samantabhadra and neither are they. Longchepa's language often, to my mind, ventures into the realm of idealism.

How you arrive at the state of exhaustion of your mind is up to you. As far as I can tell, ChNN, in every single retreat, extends the bridge for you to cross to the other shore. If you can cross into the state of the guru, you are Samantabhadra. It doesn't mean you are Samantabhadra minus four visions. He has never ever said that. There are three levels of intensity with which you can practice, semde, longde and upadesha. People get pretty jazzed up about Thogal, because there is solid visual evidence of what the guru is talking about plus all the intrigue around the secrecy. And yes they are "wisdom appearances" with the caveat that they are not yet completely pure, because the bodhisattva Samantabhadra, before becoming Buddha saw the five lights, but was not yet buddha. He was not buddha until, based on past knowledge, knew those appearances to be self-appearance. So seeing the appearances of Thogal are not the visions of a Buddha. You are not a buddha until the visions exhaust. And technically, as Malcolm has said many times, the five lights are not actually from pure winds. You purify them in the process of the system. What Thogal is showing you is guru yoga in direct perception. Rinpoche teaches Ati guru yoga. It is upadesha level.

This is a very nice fantasy.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

How you arrive at the state of exhaustion of your mind is up to you. As far as I can tell, ChNN, in every single retreat, extends the bridge for you to cross to the other shore. If you can cross into the state of the guru, you are Samantabhadra. It doesn't mean you are Samantabhadra minus four visions. He has never ever said that. There are three levels of intensity with which you can practice, semde, longde and upadesha. People get pretty jazzed up about Thogal, because there is solid visual evidence of what the guru is talking about plus all the intrigue around the secrecy. And yes they are "wisdom appearances" with the caveat that they are not yet completely pure, because the bodhisattva Samantabhadra, before becoming Buddha saw the five lights, but was not yet buddha. He was not buddha until, based on past knowledge, knew those appearances to be self-appearance. So seeing the appearances of Thogal are not the visions of a Buddha. You are not a buddha until the visions exhaust. And technically, as Malcolm has said many times, the five lights are not actually from pure winds. You purify them in the process of the system. What Thogal is showing you is guru yoga in direct perception. Rinpoche teaches Ati guru yoga. It is upadesha level.

This is a very nice fantasy.

That's the way it is, really. Perhaps you are not ready to be free from limitations.

deepbluehum wrote:That's the way it is, really. Perhaps you are not ready to be free from limitations.

''When one (tries to) correct just-that-ness, one (tries to) correct Pure Perfect Presence. In this way one produces the essence of samsara'' KGFree from limitations? I don't turn presence into a reward. I'm not bothered with buddhahood.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

deepbluehum wrote:That's the way it is, really. Perhaps you are not ready to be free from limitations.

''When one (tries to) correct just-that-ness, one (tries to) correct Pure Perfect Presence. In this way one produces the essence of samsara'' KGFree from limitations? I don't turn presence into a reward. I'm not bothered with buddhahood.

Good for you. I wasn't implying you were turning presence into a reward or trying to correct "thatness." I was responding to your perfunctory comment that ChNN is teaching us fantasies. I assure you, he is not.

deepbluehum wrote:Good for you. I wasn't implying you were turning presence into a reward or trying to correct "thatness." I was responding to your perfunctory comment that ChNN is teaching us fantasies. I assure you, he is not.

He teaches according to what his students understand conventionally.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

deepbluehum wrote:Good for you. I wasn't implying you were turning presence into a reward or trying to correct "thatness." I was responding to your perfunctory comment that ChNN is teaching us fantasies. I assure you, he is not.

He teaches according to what his students understand conventionally.

Not so. He teaches according to Nyingthig Tantras. It is really up to the student to recognize their real nature per the direct introduction and guru yoga methods.

Mariusz wrote:What I wrote in the post above: the 3 visions of thogal are the second Marigpa which can have Samantabhadra and yet return (forth vision). All of them are not third marigpa where is the Mind. Please read Longchen Rabjam, Tulku Thondup: "The Practice of Dzogchen", Snow Lion Publications, 2002, ISBN 1559391790.

I've studied the text. It doesn't seem to be well translated or the concepts don't jibe somehow or perhaps I don't follow your writing well. This presentation is a bit confusing and strange. Longchenpa was a great teacher, but I'm not that jazzed about his writing. The three visions of thogal are still marigpa because you don't recognize them to be your own appearance yet. There is still some dualism vision. The visions themselves are pure, they are neither samsara nor nirvana, but you are not Samantabhadra and neither are they. Longchepa's language often, to my mind, ventures into the realm of idealism.

Thogal visions are not marigpa at all -- otherwise, they are not thogal visions.