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Re: Granger To Resume Practice

What I've seen from PG is that when you body him up and get physical with him he goes into a shell or begs for calls from the refs.

The constant whining to the refs is concerning. If you're not getting the calls then adjust, you're a long lanky dude with a good first step, get to the rim and give em no choice but to blow the whistle. Don't give a jab step and launch an 18 footer.

Nevermind that it's just annoying. If he was on another team we'd talk all kinds of crap about it.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

What I've seen from PG is that when you body him up and get physical with him he goes into a shell or begs for calls from the refs.

You said "far in the playoffs". If you had said "go to the finals" I might agree with you on Lance. But Paul George? Luol Deng has shut down many a player and Paul is still getting better. I'm not worried about Paul George. The only question is when he overcomes that level of defense...not if he overcomes it.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Ill advised shots. I suppose it was from ill advice given by perhaps one of the worst coaches in the history of the NBA.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. I can live with that definition. It was what the coach wanted. Thankfully, this coach is different and the team is better. Vogel isn't going to ask for those shots and Danny isn't going to take them

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

All I know is we need another SF who stops the Joe Johnsons, the Paul Pierces, the Luol Dengs, and the Lebron James from posting up so freaking easy. And if Danny is that guy, and he hits the three. Awesome. But I will wait till he can practice more than 3 times a week before I put too much hope in that.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

No, it is a pretty crazy idea. There are people out there who think he is a chucker because of his shooting percentage, but you are the first person I have ever seen call him a blackhole. Calling him such suggests that once he gets the ball a shot is going up or there is going to be a turnover, which just has never been the case with Danny.

I wasn't even the first to say it in this thread, I just agreed. Then I later showed you lists/articles that say Danny can be a black hole. So no, I'm not the first to think that.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

I'm not saying that Danny is a playmaker, but the things we're talking about are based on what he does when he's done with the ball. He either shoots, turns the ball over, or passes. How long it takes him to do any of those three doesn't matter. How good he is at facilitating another player doesn't matter. If he isn't shooting too much and he isn't turning the ball over too much, he must be passing it. Is he passing it to a player in scoring position? Obviously not, based on the assist numbers, but he's passing the ball as part of the middle of an offensive play or getting it back to the backcourt facilitator (usually the point guard) or in to the center (when playing an in-and-out game). If he holds the ball and does nothing with it, that would end up a turnover. If he just heaves up shots that would add to his shots taken.

Danny can't see or make the play for his teammates, and he shoots a lot. I consider that a black hole. Apparently we define it differently. Just curious, who do you consider to be a black hole and why? Rudy, Monta, guys that get a lot of hate around here...what makes them different from Danny?

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Danny can't see or make the play for his teammates, and he shoots a lot. I consider that a black hole. Apparently we define it differently. Just curious, who do you consider to be a black hole and why? Rudy, Monta, guys that get a lot of hate around here...what makes them different from Danny?

First, I tend not to use the phrase "black hole" because I think it is a perception from fans that is far too often based on how a player is used by the coach's offense.

If I were to use the phrase, it would be to describe someone who always shoots when they get the ball and turns it over otherwise. Passing to a playmaker who then makes the play is not a black hole - not everyone can be a playmaker and not everyone is supposed to be looking for the play when they get the ball. It is why I don't like using assists to determine whether or not a player made a valuable pass - if the player is on the perimeter strong side, then passes to the guy at the top of the key who then gets the ball in to the weak side guy cutting to the basket for the score, did the first guy fail? No, it was set up that way to substitute 2 safe passes for a risky one across defenders.

We can agree that Danny isn't a playmaker while disagreeing that he is a detriment to everyone else on the floor because once he gets the ball they won't see it until they get back on defense.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

I wasn't even the first to say it in this thread, I just agreed. Then I later showed you lists/articles that say Danny can be a black hole. So no, I'm not the first to think that.

The problem is, you've been given numbers that disprove that theory, and instead of even acknowledging them, you've ignored them.

Let's go over this again, and you can explain where the difference is, maybe.

Danny played 36mpg. PG plays 36mpg. Danny had a usage rate of about 29%. PG has a usage rate of about 29%. Danny turns the ball over twice a game. PG turns the ball over twice a game. Danny shot the ball 18 times per game. PG shoots the ball 18 times per game. If PG is passing the other times during the time he has the ball, and he's not a blackhole what is Danny doing that makes him a blackhole?

If you're opinion was correct, Danny's fg attempts and usage rate would be higher than PG's. Yet it's not. Danny had the ball as much in his hands as PG does right now. Their shoot attempts are pretty much identical. The ONLY difference is their assist numbers. Assists don't equal how often you pass.

What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

The problem is, you've been given numbers that disprove that theory, and instead of even acknowledging them, you've ignored them.

Let's go over this again, and you can explain where the difference is, maybe.

Danny played 36mpg. PG plays 36mpg. Danny had a usage rate of about 29%. PG has a usage rate of about 29%. Danny turns the ball over twice a game. PG turns the ball over twice a game. Danny shot the ball 18 times per game. PG shoots the ball 18 times per game. If PG is passing the other times during the time he has the ball, and he's not a blackhole what is Danny doing that makes him a blackhole?

If you're opinion was correct, Danny's fg attempts and usage rate would be higher than PG's. Yet it's not. Danny had the ball as much in his hands as PG does right now. Their shoot attempts are pretty much identical. The ONLY difference is their assist numbers. Assists don't equal how often you pass.

So we're supposed to just dismiss assists and assist %? Two guys playing the exact same position in the exact same offense? No, I don't think so. There's nothing you've posted that's disproven my opinion.

Doesn't matter, the point of the links were to show I'm not alone in thinking Danny has been a ball stopper, black hole, whatever you want to call it. I gotta feeling my opinion was part of the reason I got an infraction, and m sure you and mattie came out clean even though the lame posts you guys made were considerably worse than anything I've said in this thread.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

So we're supposed to just dismiss assists and assist %? Two guys playing the exact same position in the exact same offense? No, I don't think so. There's nothing you've posted that's disproven my opinion.

Doesn't matter, the point of the links were to show I'm not alone in thinking Danny has been a ball stopper, black hole, whatever you want to call it. I gotta feeling my opinion was part of the reason I got an infraction, and m sure you and mattie came out clean even though the lame posts you guys made were considerably worse than anything I've said in this thread.

No, it means the assist and assist% stats are being misused to represent something they do no inherently represent. They do not represent how often someone passes, they only represent how often someone makes a shot immediately after a pass without taking any dribbles. Assists represents a very narrow range of passes that do not make up the majority of passes that occur during the course of the game. If I had to estimate I would get assists consists of less than 15% of all passes during a game.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

So we're supposed to just dismiss assists and assist %? Two guys playing the exact same position in the exact same offense? No, I don't think so. There's nothing you've posted that's disproven my opinion.

Dismiss them? No. But telling me how many assists gets, doesn't tell me how often a player passes or how willing a player is at passing. That's why we look at usage rate, because it quantifies how often a player has the ball in their hands. If Danny isn't shooting the ball, and he isn't turning the ball over, there is only one possible explanation.

People also criticize Rondo and his perceived lack of passing, even though he averages a lot of assists. They say that he only passes when he knows there is an assist opportunity. I'm using all the numbers, together, to paint a picture instead of relying on or dismissing just one.

And that's my point, you don't even attempt to explain any of it, it just "doesn't matter" and you continue down the biased beaten path.

What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Dismiss them? No. But telling me how many assists gets, doesn't tell me how often a player passes or how willing a player is at passing. That's why we look at usage rate, because it quantifies how often a player has the ball in their hands. If Danny isn't shooting the ball, and he isn't turning the ball over, there is only one possible explanation.

People also criticize Rondo and his perceived lack of passing, even though he averages a lot of assists. They say that he only passes when he knows there is an assist opportunity. I'm using all the numbers, together, to paint a picture instead of relying on or dismissing just one.

And that's my point, you don't even attempt to explain any of it, it just "doesn't matter" and you continue down the biased beaten path.

So you need a number to tell you Danny stops the basketball? Well, your not gonna get it, and your not gonna throw out a number that proves he gives the ball up. It's an opinion and I don't think it's a biased one. I do think yours may be a little homerish though. JMO

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Shooting the ball is a quantified stat. It's not like saying a player looks pretty, which is subjective. If Danny shoots the ball at a high rate, there would be numbers to back it up, yet you can't find a single one. Quite telling.

Seeing as how PG's and Danny's shooting rates are the same, Paul George is a blackhole. Don't tell me otherwise, I like the darkness of the sand in and around my neck.

What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Shooting the ball is a quantified stat. It's not like saying a player looks pretty, which is subjective. If Danny shoots the ball at a high rate, there would be numbers to back it up, yet you can't find a single one. Quite telling.

Seeing as how PG's and Danny's shooting rates are the same, Paul George is a blackhole. Don't tell me otherwise, I like the darkness of the sand in and around my neck.

Who cares about their shooting rates? Danny misses people all the time. In the half court, in transition, wherever. He hasn't seen the floor. I consider that black holeish, you don't, deal with it.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Obviously you care about shooting rates, if you say that he's a black hole because he shoots too much.

And that's why I brought up PG, because of how identical their numbers are. You're willing to call one a blackhole, while punting towards the other. It shows clear biasness, not based on play, but rather who we're talking about. Inconsistent in your application of the arugment.

What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

I saw this same PG and Lance in the playoffs last year when the season was on the line. They are young, I understand that, but they need to grow up and mature some more for the Pacers to get out of the East.

Extremely young is more like it. I think sometimes we forget PG and Lance's age due to how well they play. They're the youngest guys on the team except for Solo Hill. Yes, they're younger than OJ or Sloan.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

We can agree that Danny isn't a playmaker while disagreeing that he is a detriment to everyone else on the floor because once he gets the ball they won't see it until they get back on defense.

Yup. I just wish it's this easy to end an argument.

Danny acknowledged it himself in an interview recently. Something to the effect that he's more of a scorer while Paul is more of a facilitator. Which doesn't mean he's a blackhole, only that he's more likely to shoot than pass as compared to PG in a given circumstance.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

I saw this same PG and Lance in the playoffs last year when the season was on the line. They are young, I understand that, but they need to grow up and mature some more for the Pacers to get out of the East.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Danny can't see or make the play for his teammates, and he shoots a lot. I consider that a black hole. Apparently we define it differently. Just curious, who do you consider to be a black hole and why? Rudy, Monta, guys that get a lot of hate around here...what makes them different from Danny?

What makes them different is that they have the ability to pass (especially Monta) but they just prefer to not do it.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

So we're supposed to just dismiss assists and assist %? Two guys playing the exact same position in the exact same offense? No, I don't think so. There's nothing you've posted that's disproven my opinion.

1) You do not get an assist for passing the ball. You get an assist for passing the ball to someone who scores. To pass the ball to someone who is in a scoring position you need to do things. 1) Willingness and 2) Ability. Paul has both the willingness and the ability to pass. Danny has the willingness but he does not have the ability to do it.

2) Our offense this year is much different than it was two years ago. We are running a lot more Pick and Roll and Pick and Pop this year and we're posting up less. We have jumped 10 spots in most Assist categories this year compared to last year.

I gotta feeling my opinion was part of the reason I got an infraction, and m sure you and mattie came out clean even though the lame posts you guys made were considerably worse than anything I've said in this thread.

And there goes the victim card again. Try this. Tell the rest of the forum which posts you think deserve an infraction and compare them with your post that got one.

I'm seriously tired of this victim card that some people constantly use.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

1) You do not get an assist for passing the ball. You get an assist for passing the ball to someone who scores. To pass the ball to someone who is in a scoring position you need to do things. 1) Willingness and 2) Ability. Paul has both the willingness and the ability to pass. Danny has the willingness but he does not have the ability to do it.

I would add that the person you pass to has to take the assisted shot and make it. Considering the offense in some of the JOB years neither of those was a given.

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BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...