Season 4, Episode 5 – First of His Name – Recap

Tonight’s episode, “First of His Name” featured exciting action scenes and quieter character moments. Check out our book readers recap for full details, and share your thoughts in the comments section below!

Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. As such the post itself and the comments will contain spoilers. If you haven’t read the books yet, you can discuss this episode in our non-book-reader recap. Thanks!

This week’s episode of Game of Thrones get the title-name drop out of the way immediately, starting off with the coronation of Tommen of the House Baratheon, First of His Name. After the crowning of the new king, Margaery exchanges flirtatious smiles with Tommen from across the sept, until Cersei steps between the two. Surprisingly the former queen approaches Margaery not with hostility but with a suggestion that they join forces, having Margaery marry her second son, a king who is truly good. Margery feigns innocence when it comes to her ambitions, but she is quick to embrace the suggestion that she marry the new king.

In Meereen, the new of King Joffrey’s death brings a smile to Dany’s face. The news that Daario Naharis and the Second Sons have taken the Meereenese Navy without orders from her is less pleasing, but the ships this brings her has the khaleesi wondering if she has the assets needed to take King’s Landing. Her advisors bring her further tidings: the people of Yunkai have been reenslaved by the masters, and Astapor is now being ruled by a former butcher. After reviewing the situation with Jorah, Daenerys comes to the realization that liberating cities is not enough: she must earn people’s trust and lead the city that she has taken.

Littlefinger and Sansa arrive at the Eyrie in the Vale, with Lord Baelish educating her on the famously impregnable castle’s defenses. He calls her Alayne in front of strangers, and introduces her to her aunt Lysa and her cousin Robin. Sansa receives a mixed reception from her aunt, but a friendly one from her young cousin.

The betrothed Lysa and Petyr greet each other in private, with Lysa demanding a hasty wedding. It’s revealed that she has been acting on Littlefinger’s desires for years, and that it was in fact Lysa who poisoned her husband Jon Arryn, the Hand of the King. It was at Littlefinger’s behest that Lysa wrote her sister Catelyn a letter blaming the Lannisters. With Lysa reminding him of what he owes her, Petyr marries her immediately- because she has the septon waiting outside the door already. She promises a very loud wedding night, and delivers it, much to Sansa’s discomfort.

In King’s Landing, Tywin and Cersei take stock of their present situation. The finances of the Crown are more dire than Cersei had realized, with the gold mines of the Lannisters completely mined out. They’re in debt to the Iron Bank of Braavos, and there are no funds to repay them. Cersei discusses her feelings about the trial, but Tywin is reluctant to respond, as he is a judge, so he puts her off.

Their journeys through the Riverlands continuing, Arya is bedding down for the night and reciting her prayer, much to the Hound’s annoyance. The list has grown long with names like Walder Frey, the Red Woman, Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr added to it. Before she goes to sleep, Arya makes certain to recite the last name on her list- the Hound.

In the Eyrie, Lysa bonds with Sansa over lemoncakes and remembrances of Catelyn, and how much she loved sweets as a young girl. The happy moment turns dark when Lysa lashes out in jealousy and insecurity over Petyr’s attention toward the younger woman. Sansa is moved to tears with Lysa’s accusations, and swears he hasn’t touched her. Her aunt snaps out of it as though nothing happened, and goes on to say that after Tyrion’s death, Sansa will be free to marry her son Robin, and become the Lady of the Vale.

Having departed King’s Landing last week, Brienne and Pod’s journey is off to a rough start. The young man doesn’t know how to ride a horse. He’s not much of a squire, and she’s not technically a knight, so they make a good pair.

The Hound wakes up to find Arya off practicing her waterdancing techniques. He mocks the light style, but she defends them and her teacher Syrio Forel, the First Sword of Braavos. He ridicules them further, since the man was killed by Meryn Trant. He drives the point home by pushing Arya into stabbing at him with Needle, with the point deflected by his armor- and then he backhands her to the ground. The brutal lesson teaches her that his armor is worth more than her graceful skill, in this instance at least.

Oberyn and Cersei walk in the gardens, and he reveals that he is writing a poem for one of his eight daughters. His fifth daughter is named Elia, after his sister who was murdered by Gregor Clegane, and so there is sadness when he thinks of her name now. Cersei thinks of Myrcella in Dorne, and Oberyn reassures her that her daughter was happy there when he saw her last, playing with his daughters. He promises to bring Cersei’s nameday gift for Myrcella, a ship, to the girl when he returns to Dorne.

Camping for the night on their journey, Pod continues his poor streak as a squire and burns the dinner. He is forced to admit to Brienne that his duties for Tyrion mostly consisted of pouring wine and bringing him his food. Brienne learns though that there is more to Pod than it seems when he admits that he killed a knight of the Kingsguard in the Battle of the Blackwater. She allows Pod to help remove her armor then.

Outside Craster’s Keep, Locke scouts the surroundings and spots Bran’s group inside. He retreats to the Night’s Watch members in the woods to report back.

Inside, with them all tied up, Bran despairs and wonders if they will get out of the situation. Jojen reassures him that they will, because he has seen it. In Jojen’s vision, he sees all of them in the far North by the weirwood tree that Bran saw in his vision by the heart tree, which means they will survive this encounter.

Karl and his gang return then to menace Meera, making it clear they intend to rape her. Jojen stalls, offering up his gift of the Sight, hoping to save his sister if he helps the men in some way. Karl taunts him, but the time Jojen takes up is enough- as they’re speaking, the attack of the Night’s Watch begins.

Locke wastes no time taking care of his own agenda- he locates Bran inside, slicing his paralyzed leg to verify his identity. He grabs Bran and the others are helpless to stop him. Bran wargs into Hodor, using his strength to finally break out of the chains and chase after Locke and Bran’s body outside the keep. There, Bran-Hodor takes hold of Locke and breaks his neck to free them.

It’s pure chaos around Craster’s Keep as the men fight, mutineers against loyal Night’s Watchmen. Jojen reminds Bran that if Jon sees them, he won’t allow Bran to go north to seek out the Three-Eyed Raven, that he’ll have to remain at the Wall. Bran sees his brother, but makes the choice to free his direwolf Summer and then leave with his friends before Jon sees him.

Inside the Keep, Jon and Karl go one-on-one in a dirty fight, with Karl not above spitting in his face and kicking. He’s winning with the fight with his tactics, with Jon on the ground, when someone stabs him in the back. He turns to find that one of Craster’s young wives that he brutalized has knifed him. He moves to harm her, but a sword slices through his face, right through the mouth, killing him.

The Night’s Watchmen take stock of the dead, count their own losses and the mutineers, and see that Rast is missing. In the woods, Rast is on the run. But the cage door is open now, we see, and it’s no surprise that the beast they trapped for so long tears into Rast, killing the last mutineer. Ghost heads back to the keep, and Jon is reunited at last with his direwolf.

Craster’s wives declare they’ve had enough of the men of the Night’s Watch and will go their own way, and decide to burn the keep to the ground. The keep goes up in flames, with the bodies of the dead within.

What I Liked

Showdown at Craster’s Keep – Great action scenes with Kit Harington, Burn Gorman, the Night’s Watch, and Bran breaking out, all very exciting. Harington is really doing great this season, in general.

Welcome back, Lysa– Love or hate her, Lysa isn’t dull. The revelation of her misdeeds should shock some Unsullied viewers. And just remember, her enthusiastic wedding night is canon. Hey, we’re always nitpicking the lack of book details…

The funny– I always like the funny. Given the dark nature of the show, it’s nice to find those moments, even if it’s just the visual gag of Pod on a horse or the Hound’s small moments of rough wit. Daario’s line made me laugh tonight.

Another side of Oberyn– I’m glad to see we’re getting to know something of Oberyn beyond his sex life, in that we got the mention of his daughters and him writing poetry for them. Bonus for getting the Myrcella discussion in there too- more hope that we won’t lose the Dorne story in the future?

What I Didn’t Like

Show, Don’t Tell – Dany’s scene was mostly them sitting there and explaining what happened somewhere else in a not-particularly interesting manner. Pretty dull stuff. The scene with Tywin and Cersei suffered a similar problem. It’s understandable that they need to set up the Iron Bank of Braavos story further, but the scene still needs to be interesting. It wasn’t.

Hodor! :laughing: could not resist. So weird to hear so much about the Iron Bank. Tywin chatting with Cersei about funds? Really? Ugh, so, liked the Aerie, that was fun. The actress who plays Lysa is wonderful. And thank the Seven, no breast feeding so far, so we could all keep our dinners down. Glad they let Snow take Rast and be with Jon again, feels for that. Don’t know how I feel about Karl dying by the Crastor wife, but liked Jojen reading his future for him. And loved Pod burning the poor bunny :rofl:.

Really enjoyed this episode! Sad to see Noab Taylor go… I really liked him as Locke! He’s a great talent, and I wish he’d stuck around longer! The Craster’s stuff ended up being pointless filler, as predicted. But I enjoyed seeing the Jon and Ghost reunion.

Loving Brienne and Pod together, and the scenes at the Eyrie were awesome! Crazy Lysa was perfect haha. I hope viewers picked up on the big significance of the fact that Lysa and Littlefinger were the ones who poisoned Jon Arryn and (falsely) warned the Starks about the Lannisters. That was a jaw-dropping moment for me in the books!

My biggest issue at the moment is that they’re trying too hard to make Cersei seem sympathetic. Beyond that, this has been a great season — sad it’s half over now! :(

Good episode…the revelation about Jon Arryn’s murder, showing the moon door, the battle at Craster’s Keep, sword thru the mouth for Karl, Ghost’s return, Bran warging into Hodor to kill Locke (Jamie will be happy)and the great Arya/Hound scene about sword fighting were all nice moments…loving Margaery too, she will be more than an equal match for Cersei

I couldn’t have felt more opposite. Good resolution to all the off book stuff, putting it all back on track. Got some STRONG Jojen moments finally, and the Vale stuff was fantastic. Loved the Iron Bank conversation as well.

Bye Locke :( you didn’t deserve that. At least Karl and Rast got fittingly awesome deaths. Weakest episode of the season, though that says more about the quality of the season so far than anything about this episode.

I was worried for this episode when we started to see where it was going in previous episodes. I am ok with the show making changes, but I didn’t like the idea of Jon and Bran meeting up, and I am really relieved by how they pulled it off. All of the stuff with Locke, was deftly played and it all worked.

Also let’s give a bit of credit to Kit Harrington. He gets a lot of criticism for his acting ability, but he is improving and was terrific tonight. He is coming in to his own as is Jon Snow.

I liked it! There was a good amount of Sansa, some great stuff with Pod, and a small but important scene with Dany so I was happy with all that. It’s neat how Cersei is reacting to Margaery a bit differently than in the books; it’ll be interesting to see that play out.

Have to agree with you. The best acting tonight was Sophie Turner ( the look on Sansa’s face when she finds out she is going to marry her cousin is priceless) and Lysa Arryn (sorry, I don’t remember the actress’s name). The rest was just “meh”

Pretty much a filler episode, but not bad. Far from the best this show has offered, but it had its moments.

Edit: I think it was because it sort of knew what it was. It didn’t feel like an episode that was trying to be anything special, just sort of hold the fort and explore the characters a bit, then wrap up the Craster’s Keep arc. In my opinion, the best scene was between Arya and the Hound.

Some of my first impressions that I didn’t like, because it made no sense.

Mostly the nonsensical things came from the Jon/Bran scenes.

1st thing, why wait for sundown if they are going to storm in the front gate screaming and shit. Isn’t waiting until sundown usually done to gain an element of surprise, like a well executed sneak attack?

2nd, WTF was Locke doing? He goes into a hut and sees Bran tied up along with some other fools, why not just stab them all to death real quick and leave? Where was he trying to take Bran? That made zero sense.

I know this is fantasy and I shouldn’t be complaining about holes like that on a show with dragons and white walkers but come on man.

My favorite episode of the season so far! I was NOT a fan of how Cogman handled the Crasters stuff last week but D&D saved the day and it was AWESOME. (I know none of you like david and dans writing for some reason but theyre my favorite so whateva) such a great episode in all respects.
And lysa and littlefinger!? Dropped that bomb earlier than I expected.
So so good! Woohoo

Wow my opinions are so different from everyones lol. I thought last week was horrendous and this week was phenomenal. Kit is my perfect Jon and an incredible actor. I adore Sophie but Ive always been so confused about why anyone thinks shes a competent actress. Shudder. Also… I couldnt take one more minute of Locke

It is fair to call it a filler episode, but making the filler episodes this entertaining is what great shows do. They gave the unsullied a lot of information that will be important later too. There is a lot of big stuff coming up later in the year and plenty of action and suspense to go around.

1) they had to sneak in. If they had just marched up to Crasters keep in broad daylight their attack would have been ruined the second someone spotted them. Sneak in, THEN let all hell break loose.

2) the point was that he couldnt take bran until the mutineers and watch were distraced. Not sure how he might have fared if he hadnt returned to jon or if he had tried to drag bran out in front of mutineers or jon and co. Also, im sure he wanted to check out how bran was guarded and if his friends would be able to fight him off before he went in slitting throats.

I wonder if the show is trying to do a misdirect with Cersei, make us think she’s not so bad, the problem was Joffrey all along. Then when Tyrion kills Tywin and escapes she snaps and goes back to being the mean spirited nutcase we all know and love/loathe. It’s the best explanation I can think of for the surprisingly civil scene she had with Margaery.

SoS done for Dany, right? Cleon name dropped.. I am starting to get jazz for the Siege / Battle of Mereen stuff.

All 8 daughters for Oberyn name dropped and confirmed. Elia mentioned, Lots of stuff with Myrcella and Dorne. Maybe Elia Sand becomes Arianne? Seems to much of a mention to be for naught. With the time dedicated to Dorne this season and not to the ironborne, maybe we’ll get Dorne next season and not Iron Islands.

Was the Hound’s incredulity at a man with Syrio’s credentials being killed sort of a hint that maybe he’s not dead?

Anyway, noticeable lack of Tyrion this episode. In all honesty it seems like the whole Bran thing was done just to give him something to do. Plotwise, the most important thing probably happens with Littlefinger and Lysa. Definitely a middle season episode. Next week seems to be promising more will happen.

I think I got the vision bit but I just wasn’t sure what the vision is referring to. His hand burning while hes telling Meera “this isnt the end. Youll know when its the end.” Sounds like d&d know something we dont. So excited

Yeah I think that was the point of the Bran stuff haha. I wasnt a fan last week but I think it resolved to be awesome this week. They cant exactly change major stuff with any purpose other than “making a storyline more exciting” because they cant really alter anyones overall arc. So yeah, I think the point was just to give Bran something to do.

I really like tonight’s episode. It was mostly filler but I enjoyed it. It was good to see Lysa and Robin again and I’m really happy they threw in the Lysa/LF reveal about Jon Arryn. Pod and Brienne were really great together, much better than I would have thought.

Oberyn mentioning he has 8 daughters was pretty significant, it looks like no Sandsnakes will be cut which I am happy about!

SoS done for Dany, right? Cleon name dropped.. I am starting to get jazzed for the Siege / Battle of Mereen stuff.

All 8 daughters for Oberyn name dropped and confirmed. Elia mentioned, Lots of stuff with Myrcella and Dorne. Maybe Elia Sand becomes Arianne? Seems to much of a mention to be for naught. With the time dedicated to Dorne this season and not to the ironborne, maybe we’ll get Dorne next season and not Iron Islands.

Was the Hound’s incredulity at a man with Syrio’s credentials being killed sort of a hint that maybe he’s not dead?

I wonder if the show is trying to do a misdirect with Cersei, make us think she’s not so bad, the problem was Joffrey all along.Then when Tyrion kills Tywin and escapes she snaps and goes back to being the mean spirited nutcase we all know and love/loathe. It’s the best explanation I can think of for the surprisingly civil scene she had with Margaery.
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Well the show has always shown a more dimensional Cersei, but I do think she’s planning something.

I do NOT like the wack job Cersei becomes. I don’t love to loathe her, I just feel she’s terribly written. The random lesbianism, the absolutely stupidity….

I don’t think Martin likes Cersei. Recently in an interview he did all he could to make excuses for Jaime’s actions, spinning them in a noble light but for Cersei he tried to poke holes in her love for her children. And I think the dislike for the character shows in a very poorly written Cersei in book 4. So far the show has written a much better Cersei than George has, and I think Lena has given her lots of dimensions. So yeah I’m all for a better/more sympathetic Ceresei.

and the detour with Bran at Craster’s led to pretty much nothing, besides Hodor killing Locke. I get that they have limited Bran story, but it was a dumb detour. They should have stuck with Coldhands. Nothing but filler for Bran’s story and Jon’s as well.

Really worried they’re just gonna write more filler and give GRRM more time to write the books, and as much as I want GRRM to finish the books first, the show writers either need to plan to story out better or write better filler.

~what is going on with Dany…every scene with her takes me out of the show; is it because the material is so rushed with her?

~I felt so sorry for the Hound when Arya mentioned him as the last on her kill list.

~very interesting scene with Cersei and Tywin giving her the family financial snapshot; I don’t remember that in the books. SPOILER: did the show do this so she has this information before dear Tywin departs this world?

~it slowed down with the Brienne/Pod scenes, although how could you not love them as a pair

~”shocked” being the word of the night…I got one when Lysa spoke of her plan w/ LF to kill her husband. another thing I forgot since I read that book so long ago, shame on me, that’s a major plot point!

~the fighting at Craster’s was the great payoff we all wanted, don’t you think? LOVED the neck pop of Locke, was that bone sticking out? Can’t wait to see his employers’ reaction to his death.

~DIREWOLVES woot!!

~they worked it all out with Bran pretty well considering all the changes.

Not having Sansa present for Lysa revealing she aided in the murder of Jon Arryn was sort of detrimental to the future plotline? Because Sansa, in the “Only Cat” scene finds out that Littlefinger was at the root of it all…

I guess theres the Faegon (u like my name for fake aegon ha ha so corn) and Arianne theory but I havent given it too much thought. All I know is I haaaated reading Dorne storylines and I never thought theyd be important enough for the show but Ive been convinced that they will end up being significant.
Ill be interested to see how they do it though because I think introducing a whole hoard of new characters and playing it out just like grrm did would be such a bad choice for the show. But Im totally on board with d&d so I have confidence that theyll figure it out

Seems to me we are done with Bran and company, Brienne and Pod, and all we have left is maybe Dragons going crazy for Danys this year. The trial and Tyrion’s escape storyline, wildling attack of castle black, and a Ramsey rampage, Arya taking a cruise, oh maybe Stannis to the wall.

Can you fill me in on Victarion’s relevance to the Meerenese Navy? I honestly can’t remember him having anything to do with them, but it’s been quite some time since I read the books.

Also, who’s the one with the Dragon Horn or w/e from Ashai, is that Euron or Victarion (sorry, its been so long), because I feel like that could be significant if it has to do with Victarion and he’s cut.

Ebb5:
It is fair to call it a filler episode, but making the filler episodes this entertaining is what great shows do. They gave the unsullied a lot of information that will be important later too. There is a lot of big stuff coming up later in the year and plenty of action and suspense to go around.

Every scene worked tonight IMO.

I agree. I enjoyed it. Oberyn continues to be awesome. Myrcella, his daughters, Sunspear and the Water Gardens are mentioned. I am very hopeful about meeting the rest of the Dornish next year.

Loved Jojen tonight. TBS is terrific in this role. The fire on his hand disturbs me because he seems to be getting weaker.

Don’t particularly care about losing Locke. Noah Taylor was great but…all men must die.

Ghost is back with Jon so all is right in the world. Thrilled to see that Lysa is as crazy as ever.

Geo:
Seems to me we are done with Bran and company, Brienne and Pod, and all we have left is maybe Dragons going crazy for Danys this year. The trial and Tyrion’s escape storyline, wildling attack of castle black, and a Ramsey rampage, Arya taking a cruise, oh maybe Stannis to the wall.

We know Brienne is biting somebody’s ear off at some point.. so at least we got that going for us

True, I was never one for the Dorne stuff either in the books. And they’d certainly cut SOME of the characters, there’s just too many. But I’m willing to bet the central ones stay…pretty much anyone in the Myrcella event, and of course Faegon to Dany.

In the book, Lysa is upset with Sansa and threatening her at the moon door. When Petyr tries to calm her down, she says, “You told me to put the tears in Jon’s wine, and I did. For Robert, and for us! And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said”. Sansa hears her say this. It is in the last Sansa chapter of ASoS.

Did this episode verge into book spoiler territory in a couple of places too? Or do I read too much into it?

Tywin talking about the mines running dry. This is actually something I’ve speculated about for a while. There’s a reason we haven’t been to Casterly Rock in the books yet and there’s a reason Tywin, and later Kevan was so willing to bend over backwards to please the Tyrells, even after the war was supposedly won. The epilogue of ADWD certainly seems to indicate that the Lannisters are in deep, deep shit.

Bran killed a man. This didn’t sink in until just a few minutes ago for me. He did it in self defense and I don’t blame him for it. Still, he killed a person. Not as a wolf. As a person. There’s been lots of speculation that Bran is going to become an antagonist. Does this foreshadow that?
I realize I could be just grasping for straws here.

As far as Bran… im not sure. I think the idea that the children are in league with the white walkers is insane because we know theyre enemies and we know that the three eyed raven told Bran in aGoT that he has to live because winter is coming and its his job to stop it. If anything, I think it just shows how competent Bran can be and what an awesome character he will be even if hes crippled. After all, all of our favorite protagonists have killed people, too. But you could be right!

Great episode! Loved Pod and Brienne. Is it in the books that Craster’s is burned? I can’t remember. With the keep up in flames, will it function as Tormund’s bonfire, and set Mance’s army towards the wall? That is the signal they are waiting for.

Cersei better have something up her sleeves. This resigned Cersei is not a Cersei I like. It was very out of character, even for show Cersei.

I thought this was a ‘meh’ episode. The scenes at the Eyrie and beyond the Wall were the highlights, even though the latter was very predictable. I really do think, after taking everything into account, that they should have split the battles at the Wall and just included Coldhands(something I wasn’t for originally). That would have given Jon and Bran something big to do mid-season without inventing something new.

When Bran entered Hodor’s mind and freed him, I swear, the first thing out of my mouth was “Look out. He’s loose! He’ll tear us all apart!” Then with the choke on Locke: “If this is a counsellor ship, where is the Ambassador?”

Fitting it aired on Star Wars Day, eh?

Loved the Syrio shout out, the Sandsnakes (all eight of them), Cleon the Butcher and Arya’s expanded prayer. I’m so glad she says “The Hound” and not “Sandor Clegane.” And it really will be her actions that start the death of The Hound’s persona.

Tonight’s episode was definitely a filler-episode, but I still liked it. There were a few scenes that were a bit slow and overly talky, but the action-packed ending more than made up for it. The Karl vs. Jon close-quarters duel was one of the better fight scenes the show has had. And that fatality was pretty boss.

Nothing super spoilery to book readers in this episode, except I am getting the sense that the Iron Bank is going to be really, really important to the future of Westeros. Those who’ve read ADWD probably already assumed that, but all the time spent in this show discussing the Bank certainly strengthens those assumptions.

All in all, a great filler episode here at the halfway point of the season. We already know that the latter half of this season is going to be packed with developments. I can’t wait!

The Iron Fleet is what will be used to get Dany’s army to Westeros, or at least that is what I have always assumed. If Dany has control of 93 ships, there is not much use for the Iron Fleet. We’ve known since last year that cuts would have to be made. Dorne is almost certainly going to be included. So that leaves the Iron Islanders as the most likely to be cut, or at the very least condensed.

I’m repulsed by how much rape is alluded to. Do you really not have any other material you can work with D&D? Is that all certain characters are to you? Vehicles for sexual violence? It seems they filter the female characters into certain lenses and don’t bother to flesh them out.

IIRC, Dany has control of the ships when she takes Meereen in the books too. Later on the Yunkai (or their allies can’t remember which) trap and burn the fleet. By the time ADWD she’s back to square on and needs ships again. This doesn’t necessarily spell doom for the Iron Nuncles.

All they did was allude to the abuse and debauchery at Craster’s Keep again. It was especially helpful to the NW strike team to see it so they knew they wouldn’t exactly have their wits about them. It’s not as if they actually showed the abuse this week, and it’s not like the book is all candy and flowers either. It’s a HARSH and BRUTAL world, George’s Westeros, complaining about showing it as such just doesn’t make sense to me.

WeirwoodTreeHugger:
Did this episode verge into book spoiler territory in a couple of places too?Or do I read too much into it?

Tywin talking about the mines running dry.This is actually something I’ve speculated about for a while.There’s a reason we haven’t been to Casterly Rock in the books yet and there’s a reason Tywin, and later Kevan was so willing to bend over backwards to please the Tyrells, even after the war was supposedly won.The epilogue of ADWD certainly seems to indicate that the Lannisters are in deep, deep shit.

Bran killed a man.This didn’t sink in until just a few minutes ago for me.He did it in self defense and I don’t blame him for it.Still, he killed a person.Not as a wolf.As a person.There’s been lots of speculation that Bran is going to become an antagonist.Does this foreshadow that?
I realize I could be just grasping for straws here.

Yep. That sealed it for me. With all the stuff with Varamyr and the setup that made it plain that it was unthinkable for a warg to enter a human being’s mind/body–let alone kill that way — I see this not unlike the beginning of Anakin’s conversion to Vader.

And yeah, the mention of the Rock’s mines running dry was absolutely Book 6+ territory. I’m sure of it now, and will thus become the absolute downfall of House Lannister. What I’ve been thinking for a few years now is that in Margaery’s upcoming trial, she will be found guilty and executed. And while this will make batshit Cersei very happy, Mace and the rest of the Tyrells will seal the Roseroad during the ensuing winter famine, and will be in full and open rebellion against the Lannisters.

With Jaime in the Kingsguard, Tyrion looking for wherever whores go, Kevan dead and Cersei having lost her marbles completely by this point, that’s the end of the road (for the time being). And if the prophecies are right, Cersei will see the deaths of both Tommen and Myrcella. So yeah, this is some seriously advanced material that will come back in the future. The only thing that could possibly put the Lannisters to rights is Tyrion, but we’re probably 2 books away from that.

I cannot wait for Oz‘s take on this one! If he’s not dropping Lysa as a hot potato after this one, I shall renounce him properly! LOL

Jon Snow killing Tanner was Arya killing Polliver. Cannot explain it but scene moved with the same speed and deliberate purpose IMO. Also, I think it a shame I see so much chemistry between Pedro & Lena! You know why?! Because for the first time I actually think that marriage could probably provide more drama and intrigue than the whole 19 yrs of Robert & Cersei did. Those two would bring Westeros to an end should they EVER be together.

I root for the Iron Bank. If anyone would have told me that yrs ago, I would have called him a fool on the spot.

Ep looked good. More of tying up some loose ends than anything else. Near miss of Jon/ Bran was pretty dramatic. But Locke’s getting Hodored by Bran was shocking. Expected more from Bolton’s man.

Interesting point. But didn’t the slavers have about that many ships hanging around Meereen’s ports anyway? I don’t think all will go that smoothly. Since Dany will be there for awhile (A queen will rule), those ships will be used to protect against incoming forces, possibly much stronger incoming forces. It’s going to get nasty on land and at sea as they defend Meereen. If Dany ever returns from her vacation with Drogon!

Well I still had to listen to the pained groans of Craster’s wives when Locke went through the Keep (wonder what could have been happening there aside from sexual assault?).

And what about that entire unnecessary scene where whats-his-face tormented Jojen with threats of Meera’s rape, how all of the men were going to gang rape her, and force Jojen to watch. Him telling her “I bet you like it rough”.

Oh, I’ll just shoot George my complaints seeing as he didn’t write that scene in the show nor the books.

It’s actually not a waste to kill Locke. This will kick off the hatred Ramsay has towards Jon.

Someone here was just worrying the other day about the fact that Cleon hasn’t been mentioned yet. It’s pretty funny that now he’s mentioned. The unsullied have been informed that Dany isn’t headed to Westeros anytime soon. Now they know how we feel :)

Who ever mentioned upthread that Jorah is probably still spying. I think you might be onto something.

We’ll be in a better position next week to figure out what’s going to happen with the Iron Islands story. We’ll see if Yara mentions them.

I hope Yara’s attack next week amounts to something, and is not just action filler. Action is nice and all, but not at the expense of good story telling. I’m not saying it was poor storytelling this week, but it was most certainly filler.

I’m ready to get the momentum going towards the finale, starting with next week’s episode. No more stalling(Stannis & Tyrion’s trial). Get a move on it! And would it kill them to give us a Mance scene?

I wish locke didnt die yet I was starting to like him as a villain. I liked Karl using the two knives that was badass and I really thought Rast was gonna get killed by Coldhands especially when u could hear the crow in the background. I guess they really cut him which sucks because the mystery surrounding him was the best part of the bran chapters. I cant believe we actually got the bloody gate I dont know why but it bothered me that they didnt include it in season 1. I feel like at this point dorne is all but confirmed so many references all season. It feels like this season is going to be too short we have barely seen the dreadfort, stannis (as usual), varys, yara, or rickon (if we ever see him again).

Yeah, love those thoughts! For me, much is realigned and all is right with the world again. Rast, Karl, Locke no more! And at least Hodor and Ghost had some fun. Ghost reunited with Jon caused me to cheer. I am excited about the Slavers Bay stuff. Meereenese Knot (& Blot!) here we come!

Why don’t you criticize GRRM for all the rape, threats of rape, and stories of rape the books are filled with. If people want them to leave this stuff out that’s fine but I can’t stand the hypocrisy of so many ASOIAF fans on this issue. Stop acting like this is an element of the story that D&D have added to the show and it’s not all over the books. I do agree that they need to tone it down though, GRRM can get away with it in the books but they are making one of the most popular and discussed shows on TV and they cannot.

he didnt just kill a man he snapped his neck till bone came out, if i was a kid like him i wouldve just knocked the guy out or soemthing so ya bran might be the great other’s/bloodraven’s sith apprentice.

I’m repulsed by how much rape is alluded to. Do you really not have any other material you can work with D&D? Is that all certain characters are to you? Vehicles for sexual violence? It seems they filter the female characters into certain lenses and don’t bother to flesh them out.

I just find it to be freaking BORING and stupid. Yes, we get it, the medieval times could be harsh, we got that when Bran was crippled. Hopefully they’re done with this now.

I do criticize him for it, but we’re talking about the show. D&D actively choose to put those scenes in. They are not scenes from the books, they are fictional scenes they’ve made up to serve some sort of purpose (that purpose is beyond me since it’s not aiding to the plot, just adding more violence against women, it’s pretty much a constant throughout the show).

GRRM does have rape and abuse appear copiously in the series, yet reading about mentions of rape is vastly different to seeing/hearing it and how constantly it’s used in the show is awful. It’s on a completely different level in my opinion.

I’m intrigued with the Cersei stuff tonight, as I see it more as her subtly negotiating with the judges for a guilty verdict. Be nice to Marg and almost promise her the queenship and maybe Mace will vote guilty. Lay a bit of logic and legacy obligation on daddy, and play on the family vibe of Oberyn’s. More subtle than I would have expected from Cersei, and well done by Lena H.

Pretty neat episode. Setting up a great rivalry between Margaery and Cersei for next season. The continuing references to Myrcella in Dorne make me think they won’t cut Arianne’s AFFC arc. I really didn’t like the way Arya put Beric and Thoros on her death list, what’s up with that? She said Syrio was killed by Meryn Trant, is she just guessing? How would she know? Loved Jojen’s moments in this episode, were some of the strongest, the scene with his hand on fire was awesome. Really enjoying Pod and Brienne’s dynamic. Well, I wasn’t overgone on the whole Craster arc, but it’s over now and was just early night’s watch filler so whatever. Knew Bran was going to warg Hodor this episode. A little disappointed that Jaime won’t get to hold Locke’s head and no roast goat, oh well. Sweetrobin is so comical, I didn’t like that Lysa revealed the truth about Jon Arryn this early, I felt like it would have been better nearer to her death like in the book.

JaimenotJamie:
I think people are wildly misunderstanding what Cersei did this episode.It wasn’t to be sympathetic.She was lining up her judges and trying to appeal to them all in an underhanded manner.

Totally devious. It was surprising to me that Tywin opened up to her about the gold mines…and she seemed to be listening, like she was interested in learning to rule from her father…probably another game for her. [But then again, she always wanted to rule] She’s setting up her chess pieces before the trial. But as we know, Oberyn will spite her. Can’t wait to see her begin to crumble at the end of the season.

I do criticize him for it, but we’re talking about the show. D&D actively choose to put those scenes in. They are not scenes from the books, they are fictional scenes they’ve made up to serve some sort of purpose (that purpose is beyond me since it’s not aiding to the plot, just adding more violence against women, it’s pretty much a constant throughout the show).

GRRM does have rape and abuse appear copiously in the series, yet reading about mentions of rape is vastly different to seeing/hearing it and how constantly it’s used in the show is awful. It’s on a completely different level in my opinion.

I don’t believe D&D have complete control over that. Doesn’t HBO have people on set who tell them to add nude scenes and whatnot? I was sure I read that.

I’m not falling for sympathetic Cersei, I have a problem considering her as ” clever “. She does well for setting up weaker players. Her bite is as good as the person she hires to do her bidding. Margaery is ten steps ahead of her.

Littlefinger sums it up nicely in the books. What awe I had of Cersei’s clever manipulations became child’s play, in retrospect.

Shan:
Wow my opinions are so different from everyones lol. I thought last week was horrendous and this week was phenomenal. Kit is my perfect Jon and an incredible actor. I adore Sophie but Ive always been so confused about why anyone thinks shes a competent actress. Shudder. Also… I couldnt take one more minute of Locke

I wasn’t going to say anything when you called Kit “an incredible actor”, but questioning Sophie’s talent when she delivered so well in this episode? Backwards opinion is backwards.

I was happy to hear that they were splitting Book 3 into 2 seasons, because it’s a large book and also my favorite book in the series. But then they went ahead and covered 80% of the book in Season 3, and now that they only have 20% left for Season 4, they’re adding these new non-book scenes that mostly just feel like filler. Arya and the Hound scenes are great on screen, I love them, but they’re also not in the book.

I’m just wondering why they didn’t cover the whole book a little more thoroughly. Split it 50/50 per season. They had enough content. Important scenes like tonight’s reveal about Littlefinger being behind the death of Jon Arryn for example was very quick. Not sure if the viewers followed that or even remembered why Jon Arryn was important.

You’re absolutely right. I was a bit flummoxed by the odd turn Cersei took in this episode, but your explanation makes sense.

I hope the prophecy is shown next season, now that they’re trying to humanize her a little. I know that this show has not been big on flashbacks, but this is one that I think needs to be seen, to make Cersei seem less one-dimensional, and explain her paranoia.

the word “filler” strikes me as condescending and actually completely inappropriate, since every scene and every line of dialogue has some meaning later on. so how, then, can something be termed “filler” if it has some significance. my definition of “filler” is when grrm dedicates pages to describe food.

then i realized something, “filler” is a word almost exclusively used by book purists. non-bookreaders almost never use it. and i realize why i like reading the unsullied recaps and comments better, not because i can live vicariously through them, which is pretty cool, but because i don’t have to sift through entitled book purists who act like they own the intellectual property “critique” the show by pointing out every mundane difference, acting histrionic when something is left unexplained or loose-ended as if it is the last episode and they’ll never come back to it, freaking out that something has been cut when there is no evidence to suggest otherwise or giving it the blase, condescending “meh” for being “filler.”

and don’t give me the “this is a recap for book readers so you should expect this or don’t come to this thread” crap. i come here hoping for intelligent discussion about the show/books, to find like minded people to have interesting conversations with. i can’t post on the unsullied recaps because i don’t want to spoil anything.

on a thread earlier today i asked if the last scene last week meant we might get a white walker pov, and exactly one person responded. everyone else was still nitpicking about divergence. i honestly don’t know why you watch, it’s like you’re teachers grading terrn papers.

if there is a divergence, by all means discuss it, but do so with purpose besides just nitpicking. i have the right to come here expecting better than mundane.

Great episode! It can’t be explosive every week, this ep contained some nice reveals, a raw action set-piece, and essential character development! The Stark kids were all highlights for me. Bran warging Hodor to do the dirty begins his descent into darkness, Arya continues to get dark, and Sansa was subtly surviving once again! That Lysa scene was intense, loved it. Sophie Turner was the highlight, so difficult to play Sansa, she does it with ease.

Tyrion Pimpslap: I hope Yara’s attack next week amounts to something, and is not just action filler. Action is nice and all, but not at the expense of good story telling. I’m not saying it was poor storytelling this week, but it was most certainly filler.

I don’t agree. Some of this was “checking in’ type stuff – the Hound/Arya felt like just a check-in as did Brienne/Pod, the best stuff was Sansa and Lysa, all of the stuff with NW too. The Locke story with Bran sets in motion the ideas of how important the Boltons see that they aren’t the true wardens of the north and in addition also adds some leadership qualities to Jon.

Plus to me it also adds another moment of heartbreak in the siblings not being able to contact each other.

Some folks think that in Bran’s last chapter in ADwD, since Jojen is on the verge of death and has disappeared, that the CotF have chopped him up and fed him as paste to Bran to help him increase his strength and greensight. I’m not in that line of thought.

I disagree with AA. Although, Jojen saw a long term vision with Bran, I think he also saw fire in the immediate future as Meera spoke. Hence, his words to Karl.

Locke was a real let-down, as was the whole silly side-plot at Craster’s. Even given the weak story line, they could’ve executed in a less boring way. Oh well.

You don’t really get much horror from the dreadfort-folks if the long reach of Ramsay Snow is simply to send off one crafty schmuck who dies 2 episodes later. Man D&D struggle when they have to make this stuff up themselves…

GeekFurious:
Probably my least favorite episode to date. It is like the apex of story invention (departures from the book) running into a wall of cliches.

I have to agree with you on the first part at least. That was easily my least favorite episode across all four seasons.

I was not a fan. Way too much Cersei and precious little of much else that mattered.

The climax was a poorly shot scene and — FFS — spare me this “learned to fight like a Lord” crap. We’ve plowed this field before and where Jon Snow is concerned, we have already established early in the first season that he does NOT fight like an Honorable Lordling. I was NOT HAPPY with the battle climax between him and Karl. THAT was not a climax — that was pissing on the fans, The Old Fans and the New.

A Bastard Blade against a knife wielder? Karl is DEAD on the first thrust. He cannot even reach his target before the blade is in him. Come on; there is grim and gritty realism in this series and you are screwing it up for some Hollywood bullshit that doesn’t improve the tale. If it did, I’d shut up about it. But it simply didn’t work.

D&D can take liberties with a lot of characters — but they need to keep their “adaptation” paws off of Jon Snow unless they can improve it. And THAT did not improve a damned thing.

Here’s an idea: when it comes to Jon Snow, why don’t you let the hero be the GOD DAMNED HERO. How about THAT? Even GRRM, who is busy rewriting the rules all over ASoIaF when it comes to heroes lets Jon Snow be the one exception – HE is still the classic fantasy hero. GRRM sold a few books before HBO came along, you know. You might choose to let GRRM’s better judgment stand.

More than perhaps any other series in the history of television, Game of Thrones has spoiled its viewers when it comes to what we should expect in terms of plot twists and general exhiliration on a week-to-week basis. Every television series in the history of the medium has devoted a significant portion of the episodes comprising the middle of its season towards setting up future developments. This is to be expected, and yet when it comes to Game of Thrones, people are all too eager to label that natural development with that dreaded, entirely-too-lazy label, “filler”. In tonight’s episode alone, we got numerous significant developments and entertaining scenes, including but not limited to:

-Tommen’s coronation, and the subsequent cordial but tense interplay between Cersei and Margaery … which will prove to be a very important element of the story going forward.

-Cersei exhibiting a mixture of tormented grief and political savvy in approaching all three judges in Tyrion’s trial (Margaery serving as a proxy for her obtuse father). Tonight, we got to see some of the best acting that Lena Headey had done on the show to date.

-The reveal that Lysa killed her husband Jon Arryn, the Hand of the King, at Littlefinger’s behest, thereby setting in motion the events that would lead to The War of the Five Kings (which, incidentally, she willfully lied to her sister about). It also establisted her insane jealousy of Sansa.

– A thrilling climatic battle sequence at Craster’s Keep, complete with multiple moments of Jon Snow being a complete badass, yet another near-miss between Jon and Bran, and Bran warging into Hodor in order to snap Locke’s neck … an utterly badass moment, I might add.

And what has unfortunately been the all-too-common reaction that I’ve seen to tonight’s episode? Oh, it was such a filler episode! Nothing really happened!

Wow. That’s some utter nonsense. I would dismiss it as purist whining, except that the purist’s arguments will probably wind up being more muted this week than I would have anticipated, since Bran and Jon didn’t actually meet up. I watched Mad Men immediately following Game of Thrones and was treated to an hour of what people would generously refer to as “nothing happening”. Except, you know … character development. Tonight’s episode of Game of Thrones featured that in spades, plus a significant amount of kick-ass action sequences. And people still aren’t happy. That speaks to what a high bar that this show has set.

sorry for the rant. it just gets frustrating when i watch an episode, get jazzed to talk about it with someone who shares the passion, then get faced with a loud minority of debbie downers. you don’t even have to like the show, but giving me a laundry list of what was different is boring. explain to me why this is important, don’t just tell me it’s different.

for the record, i have found every change more entertaining than the book, including the bran at craster’s “filler.”

I get so annoyed when professional critics who write GoT reviews call an episode a “filler”!

You can tell what critics actually enjoy the show, they discuss in depth character developments and themes, there’s so much going on in any GoT episode. It’s really an intlectual cope out to just label and dismiss a GoT episode a filler on my opinion.

Just because there’s not some “in your face” type event doesn’t mean there’s not plenty of subtle reveals or subtle momentus moments in any GoT episode.

Some critics put thought into their review and point them out in ways that enlighten you, other critics who are either lazy or just don’t get it label the episode as a filler and offer no deep thoughts or views on what just took place.

johnnytata:
on a thread earlier today i asked if the last scene last week meant we might get a white walker pov, and exactly one person responded.everyone else was still nitpicking about divergence.i honestly don’t know why you watch, it’s like you’re teachers grading terrn papers.

I’ve debated this several times here and at Westeros. I doubt we’ll ever get a WW PoV, unless Benjen’s story ends up in a prologue or epilogue, but I do hope for an LS PoV…that would be frickin’ awesome and so, so dark.

Nah, there was tons of filler. The whole craster plot line was a lot of contrived filler to get at a few events that were relevant.

Relevant events included possessing Hodor, Bran remaining committed to his quest, a little more forecasting from jojen, and Jon snow getting to make a speech last week and earning his soldiers’ respect in some way.

Irrelevant filler included every poorly wraught character at Craster’s keep, the neverending fight scene as background, Craster’s wives who were completely inconsistent and one-dimensional, the reasoning that Bran would be at Craster’s in the first place (which Jon will now conveniently ignore forever), the reasoning that the mutineers would tell something Mance doesn’t already know, and Jon barely seeming to care that 5 of his men died. When plot lines are poorly sketched out and don’t make a lot of sense, it’s filler, and it detracts from the characters and the meaningful events and immersion of the show.

i wish sansa went to the fingers with petyr first, and create her disguise.
I definitely dont buy that someone wouldn’t have recognized her with her looking so similar to Lysa. Eventually someone would put the two together. I wish she had the black hair. She would be look pretty with it too. Sort of disappointing.
Loved seeing Jojen’s hand on fire. That was a really nice feeling knowing what that means.
I was hoping locke (i like name Vargo Hoat better) would travel after Rickon, after Bran gets away. Also, I didn’t need to see Bran and Jon “almost” meeting twice.
Today I noticed significant jumps, and it was sad.

Hodor’s Bastard: Totally devious. It was surprising to me that Tywin opened up to her about the gold mines…and she seemed to be listening, like she was interested in learning to rule from her father…probably another game for her. [But then again, she always wanted to rule] She’s setting up her chess pieces before the trial. But as we know, Oberyn will spite her. Can’t wait to see her begin to crumble at the end of the season.

No comment on the purely invented suggestive rape of Meera? It just bothers me after all the flack they got for a controversial scene a few weeks ago that was already in the books and then D&D and Alex Graves tried defending it or whatever. Now, when they aren’t sure what to add in their little Craster’s Keep filler arc, they add in a little Meera potential rape. That, to me, reflects poorly on whatever reasoning they had for changing the Jaime/Cersei scene to rape or ambiguous consent or whatever.

I agree with you that filler is a poor word choice. The talking scenes all set up important plot points. Setup episode is a much more accurate description than filler episode. I don’t know about everyone else, but I’m not just in it for the big moments great as they are. I like the character development and I like seeing the actors interpret the characters.

I couldn’t have felt more opposite. Good resolution to all the off book stuff, putting it all back on track. Got some STRONG Jojen moments finally, and the Vale stuff was fantastic. Loved the Iron Bank conversation as well.

It was essentially pointless stuff. They did nothing with those changes. They just used them as a buffer to give us an action sequence that doesn’t happen in the book, while attempting to amplify a threat for Bran. And they did it using devices they’ve now made into cliches (Starks about to end up together but no, which they are obviously going to use again later). If you think that is good writing, then so be it.

As for the invented scenes where they explain things to the audience, up to this point they were crafty with exposition scenes. This time around they felt tired and dumbed down. They’ve been talking about the bank for several episodes. This was like the “if you’re too stupid to figure out what is happening here” moment of the show. It was eye-roll inducing.

The one change I did like was the scene with Sanss and Lysa. It sets up things well.

Totally agree, and have to laugh at the ‘filler’ complaints. One week it’s ‘They’re catching up to the books too fast!’. The next it’s ‘Enough of this boring filler. Get to Tyrion sailing the Rhoyne and Jon taking inventory at the Wall. Now THAT’S exciting!’.

Leo:
No comment on the purely invented suggestive rape of Meera? It just bothers me after all the flack they got for a controversial scene a few weeks ago that was already in the books and then D&D and Alex Graves tried defending it or whatever. Now, when they aren’t sure what to add in their little Craster’s Keep filler arc, they add in a little Meera potential rape. That, to me, reflects poorly on whatever reasoning they had for changing the Jaime/Cersei scene to rape or ambiguous consent or whatever.

1) Graves didn’t backtrack on anything. People just refuse to accept that he intended for the sex to end up consensual. He failed at delivering that in an obvious way.

2) What does the scene in this episode have to do with a scene in a different episode? They have no similarity whatsoever. Are you seriously this confused? Are you just connecting dots out of thin air to try to leverage your negative opinion that isn’t supported by logic?

I honestly don’t mind when you guys (fellow fans) use to term “filler” because such and such bored you and this and that.

But when these professional critics who get paid to analyze and write up a review of the show use the term filler it just irks me so bad!

I mean, you’re getting paid to break this show down, have some fun with it! There’s so many storylines and characters and shit going down. One would think it would be a TV critics dream to write up reviews of this show. Have some fun with it while it’s here, give me your best intellectual insight on this shit, I appreciate it when they do.

Nah, there was tons of filler.The whole craster plot line was a lot of contrived filler to get at a few events that were relevant.

Relevant events included possessing Hodor, Bran remaining committed to his quest, a little more forecasting from jojen, and Jon snow getting to make a speech last week and earning his soldiers’ respect in some way.

Irrelevant filler included every poorly wraught character at Craster’s keep, the neverending fight scene as background, Craster’s wives who were completely inconsistent and one-dimensional, the reasoning that Bran would be at Craster’s in the first place (which Jon will now conveniently ignore forever), the reasoning that the mutineers would tell something Mance doesn’t already know, and Jon barely seeming to care that 5 of his men died.When plot lines are poorly sketched out and don’t make a lot of sense, it’s filler, and it detracts from the characters and the meaningful events and immersion of the show.

See the difference?

If they just showed Bran and co. wandering through the north being cold and hungry, people would have complained about it being boring.

We got to see Jon developing his leadership skills, good acting from Burn Gorman, Bran developing his warging skills and the somewhat unexpected death of Locke. Why is it such a big deal that they spent a whopping two episodes on this subplot?

After two weeks in a row discussing rape, I’m a little fatigued on the subject. Nobody’s opinion has changed in the last week. What’s the point of rehashing it again? I suspect others feel the same way I do.

i appreciate people empathizing with me. my goal wasn’t to rant about book purists, who make up a very important part of the viewership, or to turn this into an attack on them.

i have a healthy respect for people who disagree with me, but i want more than just a laundry list of complaints. challenge me to change my views without using condescension as a tool, even subtle condescension like use of a devaluing word like “filler.”

anyway, someone said earlier in the thread that not every moment can be a big reveal or major event. that’s like listening to music with no dynamics. there have to be quiet moments to make the big ones pop. that is my opinion of good storytelling.

as for internal consistency and/or the need for actions and events to make sense, i see where you’re coming from, but my opinion on that is that it’s fiction, i don’t need it. i know it is lazy fandom on my part, but i have simple tastes: entertain me and i’m yours…

Another problem with using the term “filler” is that it is a subjectional term, basically just an opinion.

What one person may see as a boring “filler” type scene another person could have totally loved it and be their favorite scene.

I think we all should stop using that “filler” term because it really doesn’t do the show any justice, if you found the episode a little slow paced then just say that, filler is just to subjectional IMO.

Both scenes are from episodes written by D&D. They give the act of rape to one character and give another semi-important character (Meera) as objectification for rape.

btw gewa76 Thanks. I get your reference.

I personally avoided the Jaime/Cersei festival that weekend for my sanity, cause that stuff didn’t bother me. It was of the books. It was the first serious change, concerning rape portrayed in the show, so I let it slip as a mistake or I bought their justification for it. But it looks like when it comes to creating intelligent filler, they stick in a jab at rape. I don’t find a jab at rape intelligent filler, and I start to doubt the justification for the earlier case (Jaime/Cersei). They could’ve easily left it out and extended Jon vs. Mutineers or done something else. It reeks of lazy writing to me. Which frustrates me even more, because the rest of their filler was the best part of this episode.

That’s all I have to say. I don’t mean to incite the waves yet again or anything, I’m just giving my very very first comment on the whole shtick.

I agree this was mostly a filler episode but what a filler episode it was!
Great episode with some great scenes! The Vale was wonderful. Tywin and Cersei was an amazing scene as was Cersei and Margaery! I also loved the Arya and the Hound stuff despite zero plot progression there whatsoever.

The bit i didnt like as much was Brienne and Pod. They were nice scenes but did we really need two scenes for that?! Instead they could have added a Sansa / Littlefinger scene before they arrive where she has her hair dyed. I agree its preposterous to believe no one would make the connection. Just beyond silly. And meanwhile in the capital everyone is going ‘where is Sansa?’ Come on. In the books Littlefinger plays it well with Lothar Brune and all but here… We are to believe none of those soldiers work as a spy for someone in the capital? They all saw her red hair… It’s not rocket science. Beyond me why they didnt go for that…
Really really dont understand, it’s a major plot point.

99% sure this will be the episode Sophie, Maisie and Isaac will comment on for the blurays. They all had some great material.

I imagine the Jojen on fire thing was still from the dream sequence. I have to rewatch that?

Everything that happens at Crasters was paint by numbers stuff. Rast doesn’t feed Ghost. Ghost is going to eat Rast. Locke is going to get Bran. Bran is going to warg Hodor. The wives are going to help kill somebody at the right time. Jon kills the bad guy. I knew how that was all going to play out before it started.

But that Jojen vision thing was awesome, so I forgive them.

But on the other hand, giving away LF being behind Jon’s murder… WTF? That was a total mind blowing moment in the books, the moment that cemented the series as “I have to tell everyone I know to read this series” material. And they just tossed it aside like that. Ugh.

I was never a big fan of including Coldhands in the show, but in hindsight, I think it could have been better if Bran and company came upon an abandoned Craster’s Keep in episode 4-5, and were attacked later by the mutineers, as wights. This would end with Colhands saving the day.

Also, I feel like it would have been better if they didn’t condense the battles at the Wall into one giant episode. The battle from the South would have made a great episode 5 or 6 moment, and really would have spread the big scenes throughout the season.

Great episode tonight! It was the episode of the underdog tonight, Hodor was the man, Jon Snow was the man, Bran was the man…and Ghost was errr the direwolf! Soo satisfying to see all those cockblocks, Carl, Rast and Lock die in such gloriously horrific ways! Note to Rast in the Seven Hells, next time don’t fuck with a direwolf!

Liked the scene between Cersei and Oberyn…quite telling! And the talk about the damn Iron Bank is already making me uneasy! It had to be a damn bank to make us shit our pants!

Ha, and who knew that the Lannisters are credit adicts and now live in debt?!

I think that in subtle and not so subtle ways this was also a big fuck you episode to all the nimrods and fucknuckles who had their panties in a bunch last weekend and were crying and bitching about a wide array of topics…because this is what life has become… in our blind banality we all think ourselves important and that our outrage at irrelevance must be pushed out into the world, a world that in reality couldn’t give a shit!

I hope the show keeps on this trajectory because as we’ve arrived at the mid-point of Season Four, I’ve enjoyed tremendously what I have seen so far!

i think it is perfectly reasonable for a man who is drunk on power, who has gone from powerful in his environment (gin alley) to completely powerless to ultimate power in his environment, who is a sociopath to begin with, to threaten to rape someone just to prove how powerful he is to himself and his constituents, the added benefit of getting someone to talk cinches it. maybe cliched, but it served its purpose.

I didn’t really like the fight scene at the end! Wasn’t really that great! The Jon fight vs the 2 knife guy (whatever his name) was ok but the fight outside the keep was very weak sauce! It looked more of a rehearsal for the actual shoot rather the final cut! somehow the fight scenes this year have been very weak IMO!!!

Wait a minute!
All the business with revealing it was really Lysa working with Littlefinger who poisoned Jon Arryn and then sent the letter to Cat to lure her in and started this entire mess… wasn’t that all supposed to be revealed IN FRONT OF SANSA?
…or was that just because Sansa was the only POV character to whom it could be revealed so the reader could get the info?
Hmmm….

Again, that’s all in character with the world of Westeros. No, George didn’t write those scenes, but he has written far worse (especially when you factor in the age of some of his characters in the books compared to the show).

Rape is part of Westeros. Sucks, but it’s true. Not having the show demonstrate that fact would be doing a disservice to Westeros as an entity, and as it was envisioned.

On the contrary, I would have been quite mad if they didn’t adress the Meera-rape problem the ran into while deciding to go for this storyline. So, you set up a bunch of sadistic rapers and then they only lock up this girl? It was a natural curse of events (given the current situation they’ve written) that Meera should have been in that position.

I don’t know, I just feel I hate bad writing more than repetitious portrayal of the same thing (we get it, Middle Ages dark and gritty and rape was a serious threat for women everyday). Meera is a girl who went into a cage of rapers, did you seriously think they would just lock her up?

I have to say, I am really gonna miss Locke. And, for that matter, whatever Burn Gorman’s character’s name was.

Those two were captivating bad guys.

And I’m beginning to wonder if something was wrong with me before, in the sense that this season I haven’t had a single complaint about Jon Snow. Kit is bringing it. Gives me hope for his arc.

I was shocked at the civility Cersei showed Margaery. In a good way. It took a season and a half for me to be sold on Lena Headey’s portrayal but at this point I’m loving it. I am wondering if she’s plotting against her at this stage and just feigning kindness. Either way it’s great to watch.

Kevin:
Everything that happens at Crasters was paint by numbers stuff.Rast doesn’t feed Ghost.Ghost is going to eat Rast.Locke is going to get Bran.Bran is going to warg Hodor.The wives are going to help kill somebody at the right time.Jon kills the bad guy.I knew how that was all going to play out before it started.

Interesting how it all migrates back together and back to a similar trajectory as the written word, isn’t it? Several months back, we debated over how the show takes a different path to get to a similar outcome. I identified at least 7-8 “deviations” (including Talisa, Ros and Gendry) that ended up having no effect to the storyline or similar effects to other events in the books. So it can be said for Crasters. Ghost is back with Jon, Bran and Co are on their way (albeit w/o CH), and Locke never changed the plotline one bit.

So here we are, and the politics of Meereen are just beginning! Anyone think that Loras will be escorted to the KG soon? We’ll see where Yara’s tale takes us.

But I am concerned about Jon’s wound to the leg. I hope it doesn’t fester.

Pretty good episode, except for two things that stood out like sore thumbs.

1. Alayne is now Littlefinger’s niece rather than his bastard daughter? That makes absolutely no sense — anyone who knows anything about LF will know he was an only child, so where did this niece magically come from? A suddenly discovered ‘natural’ daughter at least has some logic to it. I’m fine with changes from the books if it makes sense in terms of the storyline, but that’s just ridiculous.

2. Jojen encouraging Bran to warg into Hodor rather than him doing it on the sly for himself. This kind of takes the way the blasphemy of doing it, since you’d think Jojen would know better. No major loss here — just a bit surprised that he was so complicit with things.

This is the second episode this season where I’ve made a Chekov joke mid-episode. Now we’ve got Chekov’s archer and Chekov’s ajar moondoor awaiting resolution. I know it’s kind of fun for the writers, but it really is a little too in your face when I notice narrative devices so obviously and my career has nothing to do with writing.

Outside of that nitpick I quite enjoyed the episode, even if some storylines (Bran/Jon, Pod/Brienne, Arya/Hound) did feel like running to stand still. For plot purposes, nearly everything but the Eyrie and Daenarys scenes could have been cut to no great detriment. But everything was fun to watch. Kate Dickie killed it after a 2 year hiatus, and Lena quietly stole the show in her scene with Oberyn, a scene with more discreet foreshadowing.

Couldn’t disagree more. Also if you keep getting hung up on the changes on the show vs the books then you are going to have more and more issues as the show goes on. The changes will just continue and increase at this point. You might as well accept it or you will continue to dislike it until the show is done running.

Thought the first half of the episode was okay, a little slow but some good moments. I enjoyed Pod/Brienne, and Arya’s water dancing. Some cool mentions, of the Iron Bank and the Sand Snakes! And I LOVED Lysa/Sansa and LF, they really nailed those scenes. My unsullied friend was very happy to get the revelations about who poisoned Jon Arryn (and about Lysa’s letter to Catelyn).

But the whole final sequence at Craster’s Keep was AWESOME. Loved the fight scene as Jon, Grenn, Ed and the rest of the Night’s Watch avenged Mormont and killed the mutineers. I liked getting 3 villain deaths (Locke, Karl, Rast), and thought the duel between Jon and Karl was so good. This is definitely Kit’s best season so far, as Jon Snow. I hope that trend continues.

Arthur:
Some of my first impressions that I didn’t like, because it made no sense.

Mostly the nonsensical things came from the Jon/Bran scenes.

1st thing, why wait for sundown if they are going to storm in the front gate screaming and shit.Isn’t waiting until sundown usually done to gain an element of surprise, like a well executed sneak attack?

2nd, WTF was Locke doing?He goes into a hut and sees Bran tied up along with some other fools, why not just stab them all to death real quick and leave?Where was he trying to take Bran?That made zero sense.

I know this is fantasy and I shouldn’t be complaining about holes like that on a show with dragons and white walkers but come on man.

Besides that, I enjoyed this episode.

In addition to these issues, why didn’t Qarl taunt Jon about having Bran or at least take him with as a hostage after Locke passed on killing him?

Considering some of the lukewarm and “filler” comments I read on here before I watched it I was surprised by how awesome I thought this episode was especially the ending. One of my favorite episodes so far this season.

But on the other hand, giving away LF being behind Jon’s murder… WTF? That was a total mind blowing moment in the books, the moment that cemented the series as “I have to tell everyone I know to read this series” material. And they just tossed it aside like that. Ugh.

Just like the whole dagger mystery, the casual don’t give a shit anymore because they have already forgotten about it. Most of them don’t even know who the hell Jon Arryn is. There is no reason for them to wait until the end of the season and play it off as some mind blowing plot twist because it wouldn’t have that effect on most viewers.

I really enjoyed the episode, maybe my second favorite of the season. I don’t get a couple of the filler comments.

Lysa revealing her and LF were behind Jon Arryn’s death was a huge moment for unsullied viewers. Plus, they reminded viewers of the moondoor, so they’re foreshadowing her death.

I liked the action at Craster’s Keep. In the books, Jon held Castle Black for several days against Wilding assaults. It seems to me they’re building to just one gigantic battle ala Blackwater. Having Jon attack Craster’s replaces Styr’s strike (when Ygritte dies) in the books. From the show’s standpoint, I think the decision to do one giant battle makes sense.

It’s also interesting that this is the second time Bran and Jon have come close to reuniting. Is that a good omen or a bad one?

Well that was a pretty good episode. Nothing great, but good nonetheless. I really liked the stuff at Craster’s, apart from Locke’s death. I was really hoping for some great stuff with him and the Night’s Watch, but we only got two episode’s of it.

Also, the events at the Eyrie have (in my eyes at least) pretty much confirmed that Only Cat will be in Episode 7. They can’t really hold that off until the finale anymore, since the Jon Arryn bomb has already been dropped, and there’s not much else they could do at the Vale. They’ve already done the build-up, with the Sansa and Lysa scene. They just need the snow castle scene (or something similar, since sadly there doesn’t seem to be an abundance of snow in the Vale) and it’ll work perfectly. Plus since the wedding’s already taken place, I can’t see any other reason for them to name Episode 7 Mockingbird. Then the rest of the season could have some cool aFfC or filler stuff to round off Sansa’s arc some other way. I’m not worried, since in the last two episodes the show runners have proven they can write good filler.

ALSO POD IS ADORABLE. I don’t care if most people actively dislike Brienne’s AFfC stuff, that pairing is going to make for some entertaining TV.

I’m surprised that no one seems to mention that it looks like we are going to see Drogon killing the farmers daughter next week based on the preview. You see an image of Drogon rising up similar to one we have seen in a S4 trailer of him rising up over a child. Then there is the shot of the farmer with the bones standing in front of Dany on her new throne.

1. Alayne is now Littlefinger’s niece rather than his bastard daughter? That makes absolutely no sense — anyone who knows anything about LF will know he was an only child, so where did this niece magically come from? A suddenly discovered ‘natural’ daughter at least has some logic to it. I’m fine with changes from the books if it makes sense in terms of the storyline, but that’s just ridiculous.

This is not a plot hole, some people seem to forgot the show is not the same as the book. Book Littlefinger may be an only child but for all we know TV Littlefinger may have 10 brothers and sisters.

Just a few thoughts now that I have seen the episode:
– I am rather disappointed that the Locke storyline has come to an end so quickly, it had so much potential.
– seeing Cersei act friendly towards Margaery was weird. I’m not sure I like that.
– Sand Snakes confirmed! I think it is now guaranteed that we will be seeing the Dornish plot on the show. Also, if they are keeping all 8 Sand Snakes in show canon (even if most only appear as featured extras) then I don’t doubt that we will be seeing Quentyn as well :D
– concerning the Meereenese fleet: I don’t think it necessarily has any implication on whether we get the Greyjoy uncles/Kingsmoot. It makes logical sense for a city as big as Meereen to have a fleet. I suspect that they may have the Sons of the Harpy destroy the fleet early in S5 as part of that storyline, adding drama to it and giving more reason for Daenerys’ delay
– I’m surprised the Jon Arryn reveal was this week. I was expecting that to play out as it did in the books.

As for next week’s preview:
– Why are Ramsay and Reek still at the Dreadfort? Didn’t they head to Moat Cailin?
– It looks like we are getting the charred child bones scene next week. I had assumed that scene was a lock for episode 8, so I’m curious as to how the rest of the storyline play out. Perhaps Jorah and Daenerys are at odds with how to proceed, so we get two episodes of them arguing and the dragon chaining/Jorah banishment in the finale?

Anyway, overall it was a great episode, and next week looks to be even better.

What do you people mean by fillers? Enlighten me. We are 4 seasons deep so complaining about the pacing should not be a shocker. Only difference is that there’s tons of stories that needs to fit somewhere in between episodes.

Yes, but people would be aware of that. Littlefinger is too well known (by his own doing and self-promoting) to suddenly pull a niece out of nowhere. It has nothing to do being faithful to the books, and everything to do with internal logic.

Polish: Was the Hound’s incredulity at a man with Syrio’s credentials being killed sort of a hint that maybe he’s not dead?

Well, Arya isn’t telling the story very well. Because Syrio held off a dozen men with a wooden sword. Which was, well awesome.

But remember: the Hound used to serve on the Kings Guard with Merryl Trant, who is the kind of guy the Hound would call, well, a cunt. So the idea that Syrio, armed with a sword, got taken down by Ser Trant would be expected to get that kind of response from him.

Raga Dal:
Yes, but people would be aware of that. Littlefinger is too well known (by his own doing and self-promoting) to suddenly pull a niece out of nowhere. It has nothing to do being faithful to the books, and everything to do with internal logic.

I actually thought the opposite. I thought him having a niece seemed more believable than suddenly having a surprise daughter. Although I guess the daughter story is a bolder lie, and so perhaps more believable in a different way.

Good move on Cersei trying to win over all three judges in her favor. I almost choked on my steak when Dany said she was staying, I really don’t want to see the stupid Mereenese knotline. I have a good feeling we will see Dany making a hat while shitting herself. Come on D&D cut that Mereenese Knotline into oblivion.

Yes, but people would be aware of that. Littlefinger is too well known (by his own doing and self-promoting) to suddenly pull a niece out of nowhere. It has nothing to do being faithful to the books, and everything to do with internal logic.

So he too well known to pull a niece out of nowhere but not too well known to pull a daughter out of nowhere? I think it is your own logic that is lacking not the shows.

Well, they’ve really got the science of the extended action finale down to a T. Oathkeeper may have been Cogman’s work, just as the next episode will be (I can’t Bloody Gate for it! :) but this follows a similar beat to Kissed by Fire of quiet (well, bar a few screams) character moments and one great big flaming action sequence.

So it seems we’re getting 8 Sand Snakes after all, maybe as 3 guests and 5 extras but still 8. It’s nice to have some non-sexpositional moments with Oberyn and show his softer side, though with that being said, even a vulnerable viper is still pretty badass.

And when I saw we wouldn’t be getting Peter Dinklage in this episode I was actually glad. He’s perfect in the role but if he only gets 8 episodes instead of 9 it’ll show that the actors can take reductions, and we need leaner storylines to make things work.

Now that I have seen the episode, here are some of my thoughts:
– The Vale scenes were fantastic. Brienne are Pod’s scenes were, on the other hand, terrible. Which makes them better than Brienne’s chapters in the books :P.
– Seeing Cersei act friendly towards Brienne was weird, and I’m not sure I liked it.
– Sand Snakes confirmed! It is now pretty much guaranteed that we will see the Dornish plot next season! Also, if all 8 Sand Snakes exist in show canon (even if they are only extras), I am almost certain that we will see Quentyn :D
– Concerning the Meereenese fleet: It makes sense that a coastal city the size of Meereen would have a fleet. I don’t think it necessarily carries any implications about the Greyjoy uncles on the show. I think that they will have the Sons of the Harpy burn the fleet early in season 5 to add to that plot and help give the viewers more reasons for the delay in Deanerys heading west.
– I am rather disappointed that Locke died so soon, that story had so much potential…

From next week’s preview:
– Why are Ramsay and Reek at the Dreadfort? Didn’t they head to Moat Cailin?
– It seems that we are getting the charred child bones next week, which is early than expected (I thought it was a lock for episode 8 or 10). Perhaps they will spend episode 7 and 8 with Daenerys trying to figure out how to handle the situation and build up tensions with Jorah that way, then have the dragon chaining and Jorah banishing in the finale?

I have always defended D&D changes, and I was thinking that Locke on the wall was a fantastic move, but OMG, his premature dead and his plan was so dumb.. I was already seen him as the one who stabs Jon.

The Eyrin scene was great.
I’m glad the Bran and Jon’s plot was resolved without changing their respective stories too much. The best performance this episode is from Isaac when he’s trying to call for Jon. The look on his face sadden me so much.

Just as an aside, Locke was told to capture Bran, so killing him would have put him on the Bolton naughty list. You do not want to be on the naughty list of a family where the flayed man is their crest

Ebb5:
It is fair to call it a filler episode, but making the filler episodes this entertaining is what great shows do. They gave the unsullied a lot of information that will be important later too. There is a lot of big stuff coming up later in the year and plenty of action and suspense to go around.

Every scene worked tonight IMO.

My thoughts exactly (speaking as an Unsullied). It doesn’t really make sense to judge episodes week by week – they’re all part of a bigger whole. Some of them will blow the top of your head off, but if that happened every time the show would be overblown and unbalanced. As hours of television go, this was probably the least interesting of the five so far, but that’s in no way to say that it was disappointing or that I wasn’t entertained by it. The important thing is that it was an integral part of what’s still looking like the best season yet.

probably my least favourite episode of the season so far, but thats not to say it wasnt good. I personally thought where they departed from the book, the changes werent as bad as they were last week. The ending sequence at Crasters Keep was better than I thought it would be given I was all too thrilled with the build up for it, its a good way to develop Jon’s character a bit more into that of a leader, and I’m pleased that Bran and Jon didnt reunite in this episode as I thought they might have done. I also liked the fact that they didnt have jon beat karl in a duel, instead having him pretty much beat him before that wife stabbed him. That makes it not quite as cliche as have Jon kill him in a fair fight, plus it shows my unsullied friends that jon isnt as big a badass as he seems to be from fighting people who have never held a sword before :P
Also enjoyed the Eyrie scenes, everything Lysa says just seems to creep me out, which I suppose is the intention, and they kept it fairly close to the book, at least in spirit, in those scenes. Also, good to see the sand snakes introduced, and another good scene with Oberyn!
However, it still felt not as strong as the first 3 episodes had been. There hasnt been much of the really exciting stuff recently (at least which has been directly taken from the books) especially in the last two episodes, other than revelations about what happened in the past. Those are all well and good, but I think the show could have done a bit better by not saving the whole Battle at the Wall part till the end of the season, they could have spread that out so that there would have been the attack from the south by this point in the season, spread the original assaults from the north over a couple of episodes before having the proper battle in episode 7 or 8, then fill the rest of it with the LC election. It really annoys me how D and D seem to have been given the perfect seasons storyline, and then decided to change it massively all for the sake of a big episode 9.But guess that means we’re in for a big second half of the season with so much left to go.

Interesting point. But didn’t the slavers have about that many ships hanging around Meereen’s ports anyway? I don’t think all will go that smoothly. Since Dany will be there for awhile (A queen will rule), those ships will be used to protect against incoming forces, possibly much stronger incoming forces. It’s going to get nasty on land and at sea as they defend Meereen. If Dany ever returns from her vacation with Drogon!

On the contrary, I would have been quite mad if they didn’t adress the Meera-rape problem the ran into while deciding to go for this storyline. So, you set up a bunch of sadistic rapers and then they only lock up this girl? It was a natural curse of events (given the current situation they’ve written) that Meera should have been in that position.

I don’t know, I just feel I hate bad writing more than repetitious portrayal of the same thing (we get it, Middle Ages dark and gritty and rape was a serious threat for women everyday). Meera is a girl who went into a cage of rapers, did you seriously think they would just lock her up?

I assumed it would be Meera in the aftermath of her rape rather than one of Craster’s wives that did Qarl in. But then I couldn’t figure how they would get away unseen by Jon. It worked better with a random wife.

Actually Robert ran up the debt, Littlefinger only finds coin. He wouldn’t spend his own but he would do what was necessary to keep favor with the King. Ergo, run up the debt create further chaos and all that would work into LF’s grand plan

Honestly, I don’t know why they decided to cut “Only Cat” and Jon Arryn reveal into two different scenes, thought it worked well together, more climactic. Are they gonna have Lysa repeat her rant so Sansa learns the truth?
Also, I liked the episode (they included the wedding night! woohoo!) but what was that with mining out of the Lannisport’s mines? WTF D&D?

Arthur:
Some of my first impressions that I didn’t like, because it made no sense.

Mostly the nonsensical things came from the Jon/Bran scenes.

1st thing, why wait for sundown if they are going to storm in the front gate screaming and shit.Isn’t waiting until sundown usually done to gain an element of surprise, like a well executed sneak attack?

2nd, WTF was Locke doing?He goes into a hut and sees Bran tied up along with some other fools, why not just stab them all to death real quick and leave?Where was he trying to take Bran?That made zero sense.

I know this is fantasy and I shouldn’t be complaining about holes like that on a show with dragons and white walkers but come on man.

Thought this was a good episode, but not great. What was great was the season 2 Finale of “Vikings”. Did you see it? I was totally fooled by Floki’s ruse as well as Thorstein’s “faux” death. “Vikings” fight scenes are the best – brutal, but really well done. Complex characters, beautiful scenery and, sorry for fan-girling, but the best male physiques on TV! Female physiques aren’t too bad either – my b/f likes Lagertha too :)

I have been writing on the psychology of Game of Thrones characters and was thinking that I had run out of material…and then Lysa reemerged…

Episode seems to have tied some loose ends in order for a run to a build up at the end of season. Crasters was anti-climactic and like others, I miss Noah Taylor – great actor and character, but when it’s your time…

Right, but specifically, he’s the one that would have used the Iron Bank to finance Robert’s revelry rather than running up the debt with a lender that has a less… rigid payment plan.

When a king fails to pay back the debt he owes you in a timely fashion, you wait. When a king fails to pay the Iron Bank in a timely fashion, they find a new king. Littlefinger set up the monarchy to run afoul of quite possibly the most politically dangerous organization we’ve encountered in this world so far.

Concerning Locke, it was pointless for D&D to create such an awesome non-canon character (kudos to Noah), imply we would be seeing more of him as he searched for Bran and then Rickon. The later would be a good way to re-introduce as Locke hunts for him, then kill him off with Bran’s warging trick. Viewers have already seen him perform it therefore it was an unnecessary addition. A great new character with great potential wasted on a pointlessly executed scene, which includes a plot hole ripe with contrivance. Very poor writing for this episode when it comes to the aforementioned scene.
Locke attempting to carry away Bran, when the NW would free Jojen and Meera and be hot on his trail. Summer and Ghost would locate them in no time. Jesus Christ you would think D&D would have realized by now they have a winner with their Locke creation and kept him around. Locke didn’t deserve that ending or as I said before the contrived-full-of-plot-holes setup.

The problem is that only a book-reader would see it as “an addition.” For the general audience, it is a character, just as any other. Was Ned an unnecessary addition because he died in the very first season? Okay, that may be unfair. What about Yoren? It looked like they were giving him things to do for the first time, with Arya, and he died. There are many other secondary characters who start to grow and have something to do and then die, in Game of Thrones. Locke is only different for you because you read the books, not because of something different inherent in the narrative of the show.

I found this episode to be quite boring. OK, I get it. Cersei is always plotting and deceitful. Arya is becoming a ninja. LF is moving all the pieces, Lysa is still fucked up, Robin is as tall as Bran, Burn Gorman was as cliche comical as they come, etc…
Yawn.

I enjoyed Danny’s scene. Loved loved loved that she spoke only to Jorah. Also liked Jon v Karl. Thought that was the best choreographed fight scene yet.

Loved the episode—my favorite so far this season. The only thing that bummed me out was the casual drop of the Jon Arryn murder reveal. That’s my favorite holy-shit moment from any book I’ve ever read and I was hoping it would get its big climactic moment. Damn.

StrokemeMarg:
A great new character with great potential wasted on a pointlessly executed scene, which includes a plot hole ripe with contrivance. Very poor writing for this episode when it comes to the aforementioned scene.
Locke attempting to carry away Bran, when the NW would free Jojen and Meera and be hot on his trail. Summer and Ghost would locate them in no time. Jesus Christ you would think D&D would have realized by now they have a winner with their Locke creation and kept him around. Locke didn’t deserve that ending or as I said before the contrived-full-of-plot-holes setup.

I agree. I was hoping to see more of Locke in Jon’s storyline. I knew he would be stopped when he took Bran (and stupidly left witnesses alive to tell Jon) but I thought Hodor would just knock him out and that he would go back to Castle Black.

This was just a waste. I hope Pyp takes on the Marsh role. It has to be someone audiences know

Another thing I hated was the Lannister’s lack of gold. How fucking dumb was that… They really can’t help themselves with fucking up background and worldbuilding.

The only scenes I really liked where Dany’s scenes in Meereen (and not just because Emilia Clarke in that white dress is insanely hot)and Sandor taking a piss out of Syrio (such epic trolls D&D! I still think he lives) Jon’s fight scene was cool as well, as was Jojen vision.

Ulysses Everett McGill: Me an’ the old lady are gonna pick up the pieces and retie the knot to cast Mads Mikkelsen as Euron, mixaphorically speaking.

wow, i can’t believe the negativity or the overuse of the word “filler”.
My Unsullied friends and me(read first 3 books) were very happy and loved that episode. For Unsullied this episode is good because: the truth about Jon Arryn, Jon and Bran in danger, Hodor killing that asshole, knowing that Dany wont come in Westeros soon, poor Sansa, cool Arya, funny Pod…
And for Sullied: Jojen telling Bran its not his end not yet(Bran dying before end???), jojen on fire, bran killing, …
And Cersei plan to get well with the judges before trial was awesome and i cant believe many of you didnt see that…

Loved it all. Got the Books back on track, while giving Bran and Company something to DO. Bran Warging into Hodor to Kill Locke was great. Ghost killing Rast after Rast teasing him earlier was great. Everything else was great. Cersei was on fire with all of her conversations, Podrick and Brienne. Everything worked.

Jesus, this paste theory is never going to die. He says, very very very clearly in the book, that he will die in Greywater Watch. His greensight shows him his death. He says multiple times that he knows when he’ll die.

OT sort of. Just finished watching Salem, not to bad, I might give it a few more episodes before passing judgement. The main reason though I watched it is to see Tamzin Merchant, Dany from the never seen pilot. Her performance was quite good, in fact she displayed more emotional range in two episodes than Emilia has in two whole seasons, perhaps HBO made a mistake. I heard the rumor, I think it was here on WiC that she was replaced because she looked to young and the HBO execs thought they might be swarmed with complaints concerning nudity and sex for someone even though an adult, had the appearance of a 13-14 year old.
Maybe when Drogon immolates Dany at the end of season five, HBO can introduce Dany 2.0 Dragon Queen, which will explain her change of appearance. Because if Dany doesn’t begin dispalying range or emotion, I say use the above scene to replace her. Dany is becoming soooo AM mono to the rest of the FM Dolby Digital 7.1 surround sound that is Game of Thrones.

StrokemeMarg:
OT sort of. Just finished watching Salem, not to bad, I might give it a few more episodes before passing judgement. The main reason though I watched it is to see Tamzin Merchant, Dany from the never seen pilot. Her performance was quite good, in fact she displayed more emotional range in two episodes than Emilia has in two whole seasons, perhaps HBO made a mistake. I heard the rumor, I think it was here on WiC that she was replaced because she looked to young and the HBO execs thought they might be swarmed with complaints concerning nudity and sex for someone even though an adult, had the appearance of a 13-14 year old.
Maybe when Drogon immolates Dany at the end of season five, HBO can introduce Dany 2.0 Dragon Queen, which will explain her change of appearance. Because if Dany doesn’t begin dispalying range or emotion, I say use the above scene to replace her. Dany is becoming soooo AM mono to the rest of the FM Dolby Digital 7.1 surround sound that is Game of Thrones.

So, in your mind it is bad writing to kill of Locke even though leaving him alive would leave a non-canon dangling plotline. But you want them to recast Dany? Makes sense :/

I felt the same way really, it was basically a reverse Witch King bit.

Exhibit A: Merry stabs the Witch King, Eowyn impales him through the face.
Exhibit B: Daughter Wife stabs Karl, Jon impales him through the back of the head.

Why would Karl even hesitate for a moment after being attacked? Also, I know you see him dead and in flames Jojen, but don’t tell him that! He only managed to escape having his throat cut because Jon’s group conveniently showed up in time, having somehow managed to avoid being seen for several hours by all these mutineers walking around. This is my one Linda moment for this entire season so far, but her head probably exploded the moment Cersei and Margaery started their conversation on the Balcony.

Better than last week. I thought last week was one of the weakest episodes in the entire series. I think though, as someone who has read the books, it’s time for me to realize they are now catering to the non book readers more so than the book readers. And I’m okay with that…if they write it well enough. Last week they did not. This week was somewhat better. Locke taking Bran though is an example of nonsense. How far did he think he was going to get with him? Strange, cliched, writing there.

I’m all confused as far as the Direwolves. Where was Bran’s wolf while he was being taken and held captive? You would also think Summer would attack Locke as he carried Bran away. Another thing I noticed was as Bran and his crew go their own way, they have no weapons and supplies. I know I’m being nit-picky but it’s just an observation. I would like someone to explain the direwolves and their comings and goings.

Loved the episode. Yeah, the Dany council scene and Tywin/Cercei scenes could have been punched up or handled differently, but everything else was so crazy I almost enjoyed the breather.

Crazy question:Does anyone thing Morag Craster (oldest wife, who decided the wives will “make our own way”) will end up as a Mother Mole stand-in, leading Wildling survivors to Hardholm? Hardholm has got to be important, meaning Mother Mole or similar character would be important. Former wife of Craster could be a great background for her.

I was wondering about Locke myself & I came to a conclusion of sorts. Bolton promised Locke a 1000 acres & a holdfast to find the stark boys. IMO Bolton would want proof that they’re dead. If Locke shows up & says they’re dead he dosn’t have any proof. Although how he planned on getting through the wall is beyond me

Lol, and you supposedly know whats been happening at Casterly rock.
Its not like anybody has anything to say about this.

Ever heard of Kevan Lannister? You know Tywin’s right hand, brother and most trusted advisor… He never remarks on the state of the Lannister mines. Shit he was thinking about how the Lannisters could bail the crown out if they had to

Better than last week. I thought last week was one of the weakest episodes in the entire series. .

I think the starting episodes of this season will really divided people when it’s time to vote. Overall, this season has been much better than season 3 so far. It’s a shame they have to crap on the worldbuilding so much though.

Castor Troy: Hello? This is Sean Archer.
Sean Archer: Well, if you are Sean Archer, then Mads Mikkelsen must be cast as Euron.

Give Craster’s wives some credit. They needed to have some sort of retribution. In ep4, you saw it in the face of the woman next to Karl that she would stab him in the back if she could. Would you rather have them thrust daggers into dead corpses of their abusers or cheer them a bit during the action? I’m glad they helped Jon & Co out a bit!

But like another poster said upthread, burning Craster’s Keep might not have been the smartest move, given that a huge army is bearing down upon them…with scouts.

[…] note: The discussion in this post is primarily for non-book readers (book fans can discuss the show here). We ask that all Sullied book-readers refrain from posting spoilers in the comments here, veiled […]

Yeah, it’s a little bit of a cliche when you pull it out of context, but it does show that one of Jon’s strengths is his ability to gain allies in strange places, and that being maximum ruthless is not always the best plan because it makes you a lot of enemies. I thought it worked well with the Jon story theme as well as a sort of counter-argument to what The Hound was telling Arya earlier (which was basically “the ruthless dirty fighter wins”–also a favorite refrain of Bronn).

Good episode for the most part. It was fascinating to see Cersei lining up all the judges to be sympathetic towards her, and therefore more inclined to rule against Tyrion. The Lysa scenes painted a picture of the situation in the Eyrie very clearly – and the look on Sansa’s face told us she can see all the potential pitfalls ahead. Dany’s situation got considerably muddier, and that’s very much a good thing since she was getting a little too far into Savior territory.

But. Bran. One does not simply warg into Hodor and use him to kill a man. Yes, the situation was desperate, but you’re on notice, young man. Don’t let this become a habit.

The Crasters stuff was pointless filler, which is unfortunate. However it did give us more time for a few characters that otherwise would have been written out (Locke, Karl, Rast). Grenn and Edd got some action as well. Just sad that the whole event turned out to be wholly meaningless and an attempt to inject more Bran in the overall story.

Personally I would have made Locke have a change of heart instead of giving him the cheap fate he had.

Kind of a strange episode, IMO. I kept waiting for Coldhands to show up to kill Locke but was pleasantly surprised by the Hodor-warging. However, I think they should’ve showed more of an effect on Hodor. Because, in the books, it really terrifies him when Bran does that, implying that warging (i.e. bodysnatching) is more sinister than it first appears.

And, as a book-reader, Locke’s storyline completely threw me off. I started wondering if Ramsay really does have a plant in the Nightswatch (in the books, at least), but alas, Hodor put an end to that. I still wouldn’t put it past Ramsay, though.

But I do wonder if they’re scrapping Coldhands for TV? Because they’ve had plenty of chances to introduce him, none of which they’ve taken. Granted, he might show up next episode, or sometime down the road, but he could be kind of tricky to work into the show, due to his ambiguity in the books. Granted, there are a few characters who have been treated in ambiguously on the show (Varys comes to mind), but D&D seem to have removed a lot of that (Littlefinger comes to mind). And given the fact Coldhands is either a Wight or an Other, he might be too obvious for TV.

Nonetheless, he seems fairly important — i.e. to show that whatever magic is turning people into Wights and Others isn’t a one size fits all — that some of them retain a certain amount of intelligence, and memories of their past life (clearly, that’s the case for the Wights the Red Priests raise, like Beric Dondarrion, and his successor). Because, as things stands, most viewers think Wights are like mindless zombies from the Walking Dead, which may not be the case.

OK you Republic of Thieves! Which one of you stole my pages buttons?! A CRIME HAS BEEN COMMITTED! I’ve got the screencap to prove it, too.

This goes to Arthur. The Wic.net one, not my Arthur. I can’t see your comment but I remember it since I have seen it this morning, when Pages was not only a Mac Word editor, but also buttons on my screen.

I thought the reason for Locke not killing Bran & Co on the spot in the tent was because it might lead to him being suspected of it. Or at least draw attention to an irregularity. Karl and co. wouldn’t have done it so, with them in chains… So taking them away and trying to do the deed, maybe setting it up as a “hostages running away killing” made more sense IMO.

The attacking at sundown yet yelling and screaming instead of sneaking up on them, I agree with.

At Ry: Locke’s killing was effectively shocking. And well done as far as closing loops go (versus Vargo Hoat useless role after Harrenhal in the books). But what a waste of a good character. Filler indeed!

Strider:
OK you Republic of Thieves! Which one of you stole my pages buttons?! A CRIME HAS BEEN COMMITTED! I’ve got the screencap to prove it, too.

This goes to Arthur. The Wic.net one, not my Arthur. I can’t see your comment but I remember it since I have seen it this morning, when Pages was not only a Mac Word editor, but also buttons on my screen.

I thought the reason for Locke not killing Bran & Co on the spot in the tent was because it might lead to him being suspected of it. Or at least draw attention to an irregularity. Karl and co. wouldn’t have done it so, with them in chains… So taking them away and trying to do the deed, maybe setting it up as a “hostages running away killing” made more sense IMO.

The attacking at sundown yet yelling and screaming instead of sneaking up on them, I agree with.

At Ry: Locke’s killing was effectively shocking. And well done as far as closing loops go (versus Vargo Hoatuseless role after Harrenhal in the books). But what a waste of a good character. Filler indeed!

Noah Taylor is awesome and his acting will be missed. But I thought the end was fitting and it seemed like something GRRM would do. Give us this bad ass character and then kill him off.

Bronn – Jaime (and Vardis, earlier.) Hound – Arya(Syrio, by extension.) Karl – Jon. The theme is clear. Or redundant. “Honorable” fighting is a dead end. Jon lost that fight, one on one. Which I HATE. (even if its a sensible outcome given Karl’s experience advantage) Since they’re going off-book, at least give us a satisfying Good v. Evil fight victory for Jon. ESPECIALLY when Jon was giving pointers on fighting an opponent with two weapons in the previous episode. Would have been a perfect opportunity for a neat little plot payoff: Jon disarms Karl of one of his knives, then proceeds to kill him in a clean, one on one victory.

I thought the episode was better on rewatch, but I would still rank it below ‘Two Swords’,’Oathkeeper’, and ‘The Lion And The Rose’. I’m confused as to why Oberyn still hasn’t been called ‘The Red Viper’. The title for episode 8 won’t make much sense if they don’t mention it in the show.

That’s what Tywin said in the episode. Not sure what to think of that. Is it a show only thing, or is it a revelation that has yet to come in the books? Maybe there is a reason Cersei didn’t pay off the Iron Bank, other than her being batshit crazy?

He didn’t even need to do that, just drive that 5 foot blade of Valyrian Steel straight into Karl’s leather jacket like a knife through a baked potato. Isn’t it odd that after we get a big fight sequence where the big baddie (Karl) fights with 2 daggers, that in the follow-up we’re getting another big fight sequence where the big baddie (Ramsay) also fights with 2 daggers? (Well, that’s how it looks at the moment anyway.)

Pretty much just a “filler” episode for stuck-up book readers who take offense to any and all deviations from the books. For those of us who can separate the two – John Snow putting a sword through the head of the lead mutineer buys him some credibility with the boys in black and make the story more palatable as he rises to the alpha crow. Thought the episode was excellent.

Uh, the Craster’s fight had some plot holes:
-Grenn and Edd had both been prisoners at Craster’s. Locke’s scouting mission was kind of pointless. Also, Grenn and Edd would know if there were “hounds” in the shed or not, and would already know how many mutineers there were.
-The wives knew that Bran and co. had been captured, but didn’t mention it to Jon? Neither did Karl before Jon killed him? Also, Jon was looking for Bran, so wouldn’t he ask about “a cripple boy, a giant, and two kids”?

Overall, this episode seemed a drop in quality to the last four episodes in the writing. Like, the illusion has been broken at last, and we’ve reverted to lazy writing.
Honestly, it would have been less sloppy to make them actually meet up and then having it all hinge on Jon’s self-conscious decision to let Bran go further north. Locke might actually have had purpose then if he had tried to kill Bran been stopped by Jon, and then had revealed that he is a Bolton agent and that the North really is not safe for the Starks, wherever they go. Locke would have been the catalyst for Jon’s decision to let Bran go. Instead, they made it about Bran and his decision to leave everything behind, but it felt like he’d already made that decision last season. Anyways, seems like a waste of Locke’s character, because it didn’t develop the plot at all.

This episode was more than “just filler”. Personally thought it kicked ass. All of the Vale scenes were gold. Iron Bank stuff is integral to Cersei’s colossal f*ck ups next season and the Stannis resurgence as a contender. The Bran stuff was kind of conventional but still satisfying. Also LOVED the Jojen visions and Bran warging Hodor. Overall a damn good episode.

The problem (at least for me) isn’t that the posts are gone, it’s just that it only shows the first page. You can fix that by adding “comment-page-[Number]” to the url. That dosen’t help with the problem that you can’t follow post links anymore if they’re on another page of curse, but it’s a start…

Yay, they brought the whole Craster’s Keep business to the most boring conclusion possible. Every one-dimensionally evil character was killed off in the most brutal way possible. Karma’s been served, or whatever. Hooray for unimaginativeness!

I expected as much for the mutineers seeing how they were portrayed last week. But the way they built up Locke, I was hoping he would stay on a little longer and not be just an other loose end to be cut. I guess I would have liked for him to pursue Bran and company further north, maybe die in the season finale.

And when I saw Rast racing through the forest, I really hoped he’d escape, maybe take Dareon’s place in Braavos later on. But no, he wasn’t nice to the wolf last week, so obviously the wolf must kill him. Yawn…

Dogs:
Uh, the Craster’s fight had some plot holes:
-Grenn and Edd had both been prisoners at Craster’s. Locke’s scouting mission was kind of pointless. Also, Grenn and Edd would know if there were “hounds” in the shed or not, and would already know how many mutineers there were.
-The wives knew that Bran and co. had been captured, but didn’t mention it to Jon? Neither did Karl before Jon killed him? Also, Jon was looking for Bran, so wouldn’t he ask about “a cripple boy, a giant, and two kids”?

Ugh…yeah, good points. We could shred that scene with analysis. At least Jojen got some respect. Locke carrying Bran must have been tricky, since Bran is probably taller than Locke. I’ll need to rewatch.

Bran the Great Warging Dread! Yikes!

I’m gonna say Crasters didn’t happen and move on. At least there were other highlights to the episode.

Abyss:Rygar,Arthur,
The problem (at least for me) isn’t that the posts are gone, it’s just that it only shows the first page. You can fix that by adding “comment-page-[Number]” to the url. That dosen’t help with the problem that you can’t follow post links anymore if they’re on another page of curse, but it’s a start…

And it is not consistent across threads. The UnSullied thread and the Open Chat thread does not have this problem but many previous threads from days and weeks ago do have this problem (where you have to manually insert the “comment-page-#” info). And the integrity of intra-thread comment links….fuhgetaboutit! Ugh!

Hodor’s Bastard: Ugh…yeah, good points. We could shred that scene with analysis. At least Jojen got some respect. Locke carrying Bran must have been tricky, since Bran is probably taller than Locke. I’ll need to rewatch.

Bran the Great Warging Dread! Yikes!

I’m gonna say Crasters didn’t happen and move on. At least there were other highlights to the episode.

And yes, moon door sized plotholes. I will choose to keep my head in the mud.

I thought this was one of the best episodes of all seasons so far. Every scene had its purpose, a lot of hints and allusions to possible future events for bookreaders (Dorne will be there in season 5 – too many references so far, and who knows, even Syrio might be alive!). All scenes were very well directed, the dialogue was so much better than last week, the Craster’s filler made the absolute best possible for it. I doubted the show last week. I’m totally back now.

What the…. I’m not certain how I even got here. This site is not functioning well. Reminds me of the Nerd technical problems on last night’s ” Silicon Valley ” show. Or maybe it’s just…… oh never mind. The birds outside are more interesting. If the issues become insurmountable on this site, no doubt making it less user friendly, many will migrate elsewhere or curtail online participation anywhere. Who needs the frustration or herds at other sites. okay, rant over. I’m sure the FanSide people wants whats best. From a visitor’s perspective, its too much a bother. Wake me when the glitches are gone completely. *>*

I really just stopped by to re-read Ours is the Fury’s review, again, and give kudos for it….. it’s a good recap.

Did you feel that…..? I can hear you but I cannot see you. I’m sticking everything.
I feel like I’m stuck on planet Arakis and surrounded by spice. How’s my water suit holding up….. shit, sprung a leak. Hang on…………..

Average episode at best. Some decent dialogue, but the pacing was too slow and the ending was rather disappointing (I liked the idea to send Locke to the wall, but why reduce him to the role of assassin? Bloody waste.) At least we saw the Vale again. I guess the Lysa reveal could be a big thing for the Unsullied.

The whole Bran and Jon thing felt botched. I get they’re reinforcing that they’re both learning to realize the importance of duty over familial bonds but it could have been less hamfisted. I hope it doesn’t come off as tacked on feeling to non readers.

The judges at Tyrions’ trial are Mace, daddy Lannister, and Oberyn. Cersei was buttering up all of them, in order. Trying to manipulate them however she could. How did this go over so many heads? It was reminiscent of Tyrions’ triple split scene with Littlefinger, Varys and Pycelle.

Yes, I hear some people still have these functions. I am not among them. Glad to hear you are not flailing about in some… Nah. I won’t. :).

I am getting no action on my desktop, or my mobile, with a number of annoyances. But fansided, it’s not you, it’s me. I really need to stay on top of my upgrades. I’ve been a deviant and negligent little brother…

I have longed for a Ghost-Jon reuinon since Ghost wonderd away so this episode was much fufilling for me. All in all pretty decent episode. What reason does Arya have to kill members from the brother hood without banners? Not killing The Hound is not a reason.

They sold Gendry out to Melisandre, so she has a reason to want her dead as well. I guess they were also trying to make up for the characters cut from the show. She also thought about adding the Freys to her prayers, but she didn’t know the names of the individual perpetrators so just never bothered, but adding Walder makes sense because she would at least have known about him.

Jaime was standing by the Iron Throne during Tommen’s coronation. I probably would’ve missed him had it not been for the opening titles. Sansa has been in all 5 episodes so far too. I feel like the Vale could’ve been moved up to episode 6 and then we could have something from that episode brought in to replace it, just to give a better sense of time passing with the other plots.

Do D&D know there are fans of Roose out there!? I’m not one of them but come on, he’ll be getting less time this season than in 3 or maybe even 2. Since being promoted to the main cast, Hannah Murray and Iwan Rheon have only had ONE EPISODE EACH and we’re halfway through. It seems we’ve seen the last of the Queen of Thorns as well. (For now at least.)

Polish, you’re wrong. Vary’s did have a single speaking part in season 4 thus far.. “Your Grace” can be heard in the background of last night’s episode. LOL !! I agree, Varys is supposed to play a really important role at the end of this season and his complete absence (other than some funny background shots during the PW) is really strange.

Bastard of B-Town:
Ian Glenn is starting to look very old, thin and kind of ill. He was a lot more handsome and built back in season 1

Yeah, you noticed that too? He did seem ill and thinner than in other seasons. Hopefully, it was just a short-term bug. The kiss has got to come soon, right? But if he gets banished just for the kiss, that would be ridiculous. Could he still be spying in some capacity? It would be really late (and forced) to go in that direction now, imho.

mariamb,
Seems very plausible that it will be something with Daario. I wonder….instead of being banished by Dany for something, do you think that, after the awkward kiss and rejection, Jorah might simply walk away and disappear from Slavers Bay? The desperate kiss might be in reaction to him seeing Daario/Dany’s intimacy and/or he may have genuine issues with the dragons’ chaos. He may simply decide that he no longer wants to be part of the Targaryen crusade anymore. What are his real ambitions with Dany without his annoying infatuation?

If a thread has no page links, you can determine the current end page by doing the following:
(# of comments) / 50…if there is a remainder, then add 1.

Example: 352/50=7,r2…since there is a remainder, add 1 –> 8
You’ll need to insert “comment-page-8/” to the URL link before the “#comment” in the address bar in order to link to the end page. Go to any comment page in the thread by changing the “page-#” in the URL.

The episode wasn’t bad in any way, but it wasn’t outstandingly good either. In terms of editing, Oathkeeper was much better- I prefer it when we stick to one character for a long scene rather than when we jump around constantly. Both Pod/Brienne scenes should have run together and the same goes for Arya and the Hound. The Lysa/Littlefinger reveal would have been better as is in the books in my opinion but otherwise the Eyrie was good.

And now, the biggest issue of the episode! Craster’s Keep, while cool, did not meet my expectations. It ended up being complete filler- Locke dead, Bran and co narrowly missing Jon again. In my honest opinion that kind of sucks- it makes it all seem so pointless, and having Jon and Bran almost meet again is tasteless. Also, I was expecting more wolf action. I do love Craster’s wife joining in but it the scene where they burn the house was awkward and felt completely out of place.

Honorable mention: love that they are showing more sides to Oberyn! Studied at the citadel about poisons= he is a smart dude. Writes poetry= he is a classy dude. Has daughters= DORNE CONFIRMED?!!! Seriously, they could not possibly mean to do all these things without following through wuth Dorne. Unless their plans changed during the writing, I doubt Dorne is cut. Rejoice!

Cersei had 3 sympathetic discussions – with 2 of Tyrion’s judges and another with the daughter of a judge. I don’t think Cersei cares what she needs to concede or who she needs to be nice to – she wants Tyrion dead and she is playing the game. She even puts up with being called ‘sister’ by Marg.

Did anyone else notice that when Lysa accused Sansa of being liked and/or pregnant by Little Finger, Sansa, amidst her tears, was actually lying? And convincingly, playing up to her own stereotype.

The word ‘filler’, when applied to entire scenes, is somewhat annoying. That filler is character development, additional information and back story. Without it none of the other scenes would be worth anything. D&D do not have any excess time to invent entire scenes that do not have a purpose (at least in their eyes), and I’m pretty sure every scene probably ticks off several. Sometimes it is awkward, but never is it pointless.

Whoever thought it would be a good idea to separate the comments thread out into multiple pages was mistaken, because now the page number buttons have disappeared, so I can’t access anything past the first page. There was nothing wrong with the formatting how it was. Why was it changed?

This was part of my lost comment. Dorne is all bit confirmed, and in full effect. If that scene isn’t proof that Dorne is planned for season 5 (or at the very least WAS when 4 was being written).

The real question now is: what about the Iron Islands? I think Yara’s trip next week will shed some light on that matter (if she dies- no Kingsmoot, if she runs to Deepwood- no Kingsmoot, if she runs to Moat Cailin- then we can talk).

I gotta say that was just a stupid waste of Noah Taylor (Locke). I would have much preferred seeing the Mountain cutting off his limbs and feeding them to him (as a way of reintroducing the Mountain) than this bizarre dead-end detour. This whole thing where D&D introduce an original character and then pointlessly kill them off to bump up the shock death quota (see: Ros) is really strange. I half expect Olyvar, the guy running Petyr’s brothel, to suddenly die for no reason, too.
I was willing to accept this weird Craster’s Keep deviation from the books as a method of spicing up Jon and Bran’s respective storylines. I was even starting to hope that Locke would become a major player on the wall and inevitably become a cog in Jon’s assassination. But no, he’s gone, which in turn sent me back to seeing the deviation as largely superfluous. I guess maybe it sets up Jon as more of a leader and brings closure to Jeor Mormont, but that’s about it.

A version of this scene I would have been happy with:
Locke kidnaps Bran, takes him into the woods and interrogates him about where Rickon is (Bran may or may not tell him about the Umbers). ‘Warged’ Hodor comes to the rescue, but rips off Locke’s arm in the struggle and throws him against a tree, knocking him out instead of killing him. They all escape once Jojen convinces Bran not to call for Jon. The crows find Locke unconscious and carry him back to the Wall. Everything else could stay the same.

This means:
– The viewer still sees Hodor is shocked and upset about Bran’s ‘mindrape’.
– Dramatic irony and some justice for Jaime’s hand, plus an allusion to the book, with Locke (Vargo Hoat) losing a limb.
– Locke knows Bran is north of the Wall, but doesn’t have an excuse to go looking for him again, so stays put in case he reappears, interacting with Jon and Sam’s storylines while he’s waiting.
– Or alternatively he leaves the Wall and goes looking for Rickon.

Now, I get it – I’m not a showrunner or GRRM, so these aren’t my decisions to make. Also, I don’t know all the details, like maybe Noah Taylor didn’t want to hang around for whatever reason. But barring that how was getting rid of Locke a worthwhile decision, when there’s a bunch of things they could have done with him. D&D should be using their original characters as much as possible, because characters like Ros and Locke are the only ones that aren’t tied down to a pre-existing storyline and therefore can pick up the slack. (Sort of like Gendry subbing in for Edric Storm) Wasted potential. Poor writing.

Rygar:But I thought the end was fitting and it seemed like something GRRM would do.Give us this bad ass character and then kill him off.

OWNED! My ass got owned on that one! Who knew you had it in you, Ry?! Well done! LOL

Still, like I said about the badass book characters that I love, who got the same treatment in the books as Locke: what a waste of a good character.

You see, I do think they are well written: Oberyn, Quentyn, and I did get pissed when they bought the farm. I might squabble about the purpose of Locke vs the ones I’ve mentioned. But Bolton doing something when he finds out the Stark boys are alive, gives Noah’s character purpose in itself I suppose. I really did expect more though.

so does anyone else have a problem with the direwolf discrepancies? Come on, Ghost could ever be captured by deviant night’s watchmen? I don’t buy it. Or Summer caught in a trap so easily. These animals are supposed to have almost mystical awareness. Remember how Catelyn didn’t want Rob to cage Grey Wind up at the Twins? I also really miss the connection between Arya and Nymeria.
Other than that, I was happy to see the story back on track this week and I did enjoy the more dramatic reveal of Bran’s Hodorizing. I actually think it was more interesting than in the book.

Totally agree about the direwolf disrespect. Although Summer/Shaggydog and Ghost had a few action sequences last season (saving Sam from a wight, attacking wildlings at Queenscrown), their mystical savvy and allure has been minimized. Nymeria has disappeared altogether but we know that she and her pack are doing some damage to isolated Lannister troops in the riverlands. Personally I hope they align her with the BwB and LS in ep10.

But you’re right. Ghost caught in a cage with no viable explanation is difficult to accept. Same with Summer getting caught. No way the mutineers are outsmarting the direwolves in my book. The whole Crasters thing had its merits visually but I would have preferred Summer, Ghost and CH taking them out and freeing the women once they stumbled across them on their way north. Then Ghost would leave them and find his way back to Jon.

Or maybe someone could complain abput the violence. The show and the books are shocking in their level of brutality. I know the Middle Ages were rough but it’s amazing that it’s so easy for viewers to accept.

After a couple of days to think about Sunday’s show, here are my random thoughts:
1. I was furious with the Hound for hitting Arya! He hit her so hard she fell to the ground and her lip was split. Wasn’t anyone else mad at him for doing that to our precious Arya?
2. Wow, the brutality and violence were off the charts. I know that’s part of the show, but I still found it shocking and hard to watch in places. Yet, I’m relieved that we’re done at Craster’s.
3. I got so excited when the audience started seeing Jojen’s vision, but I was disappointed we didn’t see more. Nonetheless, his hand on fire sure dropped my jaw. Is that him seeing his end? His and Meera’s? Fun to consider the possibilities.
4. I was one that didn’t catch on during the show what Cersei was up to. It was so out of character (from the books) for her to approach Margaery and offer Tommen. Now that I understand her strategy, I feel better about it and am even impressed. Curious how that ship for Myrcella will pay off.
5. Since in the theme, they changed the way the camera angle spins away from The Wall, Dorne is now right in the path. Each week I hope they’ll put the name on there, even if no Sunspear or anything. Will all the “previously on” that referenced Myrcella and Dorne, I actually started to think it’d be on there, but alas.
6. It seemed in the first Eyrie scenes that Lysa was much too normal and kind and welcoming. Good to see her mask come off in shocking fashion as she lit into Sansa. As another poster said, Sansa realizes she’s escaped one hell for another – this danger coming from her own family! Lino Facioli (Robin) was delightfully loony, though he barely looked any older after 3 years or so.
7. Like some of you, I wonder if the dried-up mines of Casterly Rock is new material or TWoW “spoiler” information. Either way, it’s big trouble for House Lannister and House Baratheon.
8. Some characters I really missed: Pyp, Sam, Ygritte, Varys, Tyrion. How long has it been since Peter Dinklage was *not* in an episode? Season 2?
9. Strongly feeling the quicksand of the Meereenese Knot. Other than marrying Hizdahr and chaining the dragons after they kill a child, what’s left for that crew to do? There’s still half of season 4 and all season 5 unless D&D push ahead of the books again.

Okay, that’s enough. Overall, I loved the episode. The ending felt abrupt and unfinished somehow, but otherwise quite a momentous and dramatic episode.

Ahhh! I like that. Then are they implying that Bran needs to learn how to think like a direwolf when he wargs a direwolf (as if he is actually in control)? So was that Bran fighting the wildlings at Queenscrown in S3 when Summer/Shaggydog attacked? Or does Bran just “direct” them passively?

My recollection from ASOIAF is that Bran metamorphosed / transformed into a Direwolf, experiencing as Summer would, and could become lost in this whole transformation. Martin illustrates through Hodor, at the Queenscrown, that if Bran chose to he could direct control as well. At times Martin is intentionally obtuse, but it is implied that there is choice via maturity and control. Despite the book series eloquent detail os Warg/ Greensight ability, there remain unanswered questions regarding the full extent. Where we read of Othell or Orell or Brynden ( Rivers ), there remains that question of little control vs fully overcome by the animal nature. That line is unclear, at least to me. At the end of ADWD we read more explicit example, if explanation, and I’m hoping more is clarified in TWOW. I don’t believe I’ve answered your question fully, but I think this is right. I’ve only read the books just once, and relying only on recollection. Chisel away ( :

wow, wish I’d read this first. You brought up the same reference point that I did ( small world ! ).

I hope my latter response made some sense.

If that doesn’t make sense, one of my uncle used to say ” that’s just the liquor talking’ “. This answer could also apply to whether or not Bran was control or the dire wolf. If something went awry, blame the dog ( :

jentario: love that they are showing more sides to Oberyn! Studied at the citadel about poisons= he is a smart dude. Writes poetry= he is a classy dude.

Agreed upon. This is the Oberyn I respect, and I’m pleased that GoT portrayed more beyond his bedroom antics. I’m sure book Doran conferred with his brother more than those at King’s Landing realize. The Martell’s are not ones to trifle with. Mention of the Martell/Sand sisters was notable, as was Wyliss Tyrell. It may not guarantee roles onscreen, but I truly hope there will be a compromise of 1 or 2, in addition to Arianne of course. I hope Dorne isn’t depicted as planet Arakis tom Dune. *>*

The show and the books are shocking in their level of brutality. I know the Middle Ages were rough but it’s amazing that it’s so easy for viewers to accept.

Okay, I’m going to ask you a question and please don’t take offense but your answer will make a big difference as to why you think the way you do. What country do you live in? Is it “first world”, industrialized? I think that life is brutal in most parts of the world and those of us who live in the US and Europe (Australia too) are so insulated from the suffering that occurs elsewhere around the globe. WE have it so good…many of us can afford cable television…even the average American can’t afford cable. Even if you can’t afford cable, if you’re downloading it illegally you at least have a computer and an Internet connection. On average only 1/3 of the world’s population is even connected to the Internet. Many who are connected are only connected via their phones. Surfing with PCs, Ipads, laptops etc is more prevalent in the US than other locales. Economically speaking 90% of the US are in the top 1% of the world in terms of wealth.

My point is that people in wealthy countries who are shocked about the brutality of GOT probably had their history given to them sugar coated and/or aren’t aware of how the rest of the world really lives. If you’re not shocked and just accept it, then you’re either 1) inured to violence and death or 2) know enough about the world to understand that’s just the way it is. IMHO I think that the majority know their history and understand that they’re privileged but they accept that life was and is often brutal. I’m grateful beyond belief to be a woman who lives in the US in 2014 and I don’t for a second think that real life elsewhere isn’t very brutal. If GOT is really shocking, I could tell you stories that would give you nightmares for the rest of your life. I think most GOT viewers are aware that it is shocking but it is also real, so they accept it.

I agree with you. But rape is brutal and happens all over the world also. And people on this site complain a lot more about depicting rape than violence. Why are we supposed to be so comfortable with violence on a well-made TV show, but shocked by rape?

Okay, well that’s a distinction I didn’t read into your first statement. First, too many people still don’t understand that Rape isn’t about sex but about violence and control. Sex is simply the tool. So they see it as a separate phenomenon. Second, Americans ARE more inured to violence–IMHO–so we don’t react to it as much. Third, our culture tends to focus on the sexual more than the violence because sexuality is more verboten here. In many other countries, we see more sexuality on TV but less violence. Fourth, reporting the crime of rape is way up primarily due to a positive cultural shift and awareness. Combine that with our cultural heritage though, and it means we are more likely to notice it relative to other crimes. Fifth, such crimes are primarily committed against female victims. Women are much more vocal about speaking their minds and the Internet is a great bullhorn that cares nothing about gender. And finally, the Internet is an exponential magnifier of noise. What would take millions to get news into print now only takes a few thousand to get noticed on the Internet. I.e., there is an element of the “squeaky wheel” at play here.

I have no problem with women (or men who hold feminist ideas) speaking out against rape and it’s gratuitous portrayal in the media. However, the outrage we see against GOT is misplaced. That outrage should be directed against things like Grand Theft Auto that are gratuitous and do help to perpetuate violence against women. But do we actually see that level of outrage? Do we see the activism? No. Maybe it’s harder to face that kind of stuff down….IDK. I’m a feminist and I, of course, despise violence and sexual violence. And I was uncomfortable with the show…but that’s as much due to my personal history as it is my beliefs. But I don’t think GOT is wrong to depict it or wrong in their portrayal of the brutality. Art often makes us look at uncomfortable truths. Far, far too many people have had to deal with that kind of crap in the past and many still do today.

So I agree with your assessment that there is a disconnect between the reaction to violence versus rape, particularly in the U.S. However, I think that many GOT watchers are more sophisticated than that and they can be shocked (thank goodness we can still be shocked) and at the same time accept it as being realistic. Which was the point I thought you were originally arguing against.