Posted
by
Soulskill
on Sunday June 15, 2008 @12:06PM
from the chip-off-the-old-block dept.

Might E. Mouse writes "Reviews are hitting the net for the first Intel Atom-powered netbooks, and TrustedReviews has posted one for the ASUS Eee PC 901 20G Linux Edition. Has ASUS won the Atom(ic) war before it even started? With features like Wireless-N and a 6600mAh battery good for four to seven hours, that might well be the case. TR rated it highly, but I'm going to wait for their MSI Wind review before making a purchase — their first look at the Wind showed a better keyboard and larger storage."
An anonymous reader notes that despite the increased capabilities, the 901 debuts at a lower cost than its predecessor.

with MSI, eeePC, XO v2.0 and a host of other micronotebooks, I'm going to wait another year for it all to solidify. There's a lot of speculation right now, and I'd like to see a market tested, proven platform I can compare to all the others before I buy.

I can understand that, but, if you followed that logic consistently, you'd never buy a computer at all. I bought a 701, which I liked apart from the screen. Then I bought a Windows 900, on which I've installed Kubuntu, and I'm quite happy with it. It's a bit irritating that the next model is out already, but I'll be using mine on a series of train trips next week. If I had done things your way, I'd be reading magazine reviews instead of doing any work...

I bought an XO back in December and love it. I've found a way to type on it that allows me to still type fast enough to get work done. Also, I don't "follow the logic consistently". I usually wait until something's matured and dropped in price enough for it to behoove me to buy it. I bought a Core 2 Duo for ~200 bucks about two years ago, and have resisted and resisted getting a Core 2 Quad or Phenom. The prices and product have had long enough to mature, and 6 or 8 core processors are far enough away to wa

That depends. I did like the 701, but I definitely didn't like how the screen didn't fill up the lid all the way. So I figured I would wait to see if they would come out with a larger screen, and they did. Now it would be worth my money, imho, even though they might release something better in the future. It depends on what you want and how often you are willing to upgrade your stuff.

Because it's available. I pre-ordered a 701, waited 4 months for it to appear (supply in Europe has been very poor), and by that point the 900 was almost with us. My previous laptop had a broken key, and I wanted to set up my new machine before I next needed to use the local keyboard, so I bought what was available rather than what the wholesaler thought might be in stock in a month's time.

I'll just wait until something interesting pops up used and cheap!I'd wait if buying a truck or other high value asset, but there are so many computer choices making a quick, economic decision is easy. So is dumping it if I make a mistake.

I thought the same thing last year and then, when my folks, brother, and wife couldn't think of anything else to get me for Christmas, I suggested the Eee 701 8G. I got it on a whim, thinking it would be a good toy. And it is. But I was surprised by how much work I can do on the thing. Most of the time, it's my primary computer.The keyboard takes a lot of knocks in reviews, but listen to the people who have had one for a while. I have meaty fingers and I can type fast on the thing. The screen is too small,

If it had been up to Microsoft and Sony, we'd still be stuck with overpriced $2000 executive toys running Microsoft Vista like molasses.

FOSS has made it possible to create these machines and circumvent Microsoft's near monopoly, because if any of these companies had asked Microsoft to keep XP going for ultralights, Microsoft would have told them to go f*ck themselves. FOSS has also made it possible for these companies to design and sell $400 machines.

And the motivation for it all has not been that people begrudge Bill Gates his collection of 19th century gold plated toilet plungers, but the fact that people want choices and free markets in software and hardware. All Microsoft has to offer is a gigantic marketing budget and Stalinist central planning.

It gets tiring seeing the same arguments over and over, so I'm not going to rehash the arguments in Intel's favor.

On a side note, no matter how you look at it - your hero Negroponte sold out. It's amusing how on their website one of the "5 core principles" is open source software. And to much acclaim, they publicly refused to use Mac OS (which was offered for free) and then turn around and license XP. (Oh yeah, and disagreements with Negroponte is the reason Intel walked away)

Don't know much or care much about the man, but OLPC has been a good example of how (in everything) great tech isn't enough to solve a problem. The lack of teacher training and software interfaces designed for those totally unfamiliar with computers have (temporarily, one hopes) held the project back.But still, even if it hasn't been the revolution for every single kid that it was dreamed to be (and given the kind of rhetoric surrounding the project -- there's no way it could fully live up to expectation.

Started what? Cheap computers? I don't think so. We had the Sinclair ZX80, the Commodore 64, the TRS80-100, the Apple eMate, and the Dana Alphasmart, all the ITX-based machines, to name just a few. (Some of them missed their price targets, but then so did the XO.)

This notion of cheap/easy-to-use computers for education/the masses comes back about once a decade. OLPC was a little ahead of the curve this time, but it's hardly ground breaking.

FOSS has made it possible to create these machines and circumvent Microsoft's near monopoly...

I'm not sure FOSS made their existence possible, but it certainly made this price differential possible:

The Wind appears to be solidly constructed out of hard plastic--unlike some early mini-laptops, which feel about as sturdy as a Styrofoam mini-cooler. At 10 by 7 by 0.8 inches, the Wind resembles some pricier portables--enough so that the list price of $399 (or $499 for the Windows XP version) seems like a bargain. Wait a week and we'll be able to tell you whether it's worth the money.

The mini-notebook phenom has most definitely highlighted the Windows tax on computer hardware. And it's nice to see examples of having that price differential clearly illustrated. And that's the way it should be. If you feel having Windows adds $100 of value to your notebook, by all means go right ahead and fork over the $$$.

The mini-notebook phenom has most definitely highlighted the Windows tax on computer hardware./blockquote>
Since Windows is *optional* on these notebooks I think calling it a Windows *tax* is no longer warranted. FWIW, I strongly suspect that for only $100 more, many (most?) will opt to purchase Windows on these devices. But I agree with you... making Windows optional is the way it should be. From my perspective, I hope each flavor garners about half of the market so the competition remains stiff. That

It certainly helps that the manufacturers can tailor the OS to their hardware themselves.Free and infinitely configurable vs. pricey and fixed featureset isn't much of a competition.

Of course

Compatible with my files from work vs. not isn't either.

The best thing going for FOSS right now is that for most users application support is an issue of diminishing importance. Media and document formats are everything. If you can view web pages, you can do most everything, if you can edit word, excel, and powerpoint

Why wouldn't you put a different CPU in an UMPC? Sure, an Atom CPU is low-power, but it's also held back by the x86 architecture. Drop that, and you lose binary compatibility (a small loss for this application) in exchange for even better battery life. An UMPC based on ARM, Mips or low-power PPC core could be even more awesome than one based on Atom.

I can understand that people want x86 compatibility, even for a small UMPC running Linux. But with this market explodi

Google around for Linus' statements on Itanium.He's pretty fond of x86, and takes the perspective (pretty obvious one for him if you've looked inside the Kernel) that a collection of hacks and cruft like you see in the intel instruction set is the sign of good engineers dealing with problems that don't come up in theoretical exercises.

Aside from the fact that x86 is a conceptual mess, do you have evidence to back up you aversion to the architecture? Intel is bending over backwards (in their own interest to

here in germany, they don't sell the Asus EEE PC with Linux. The only available version is the XP version with 12GB Flash and it costs 600$ (400 Euro). It seems that Microsoft has "convinced" Asus not to ruin their market here.

And the motivation for it all has not been that people begrudge Bill Gates his collection of 19th century gold plated toilet plungers, but the fact that people want choices and free markets in software and hardware.

I find it disgusting that people continue to pick on Bill Gates and his enormous wealth. Don't forget that he not only *invented* the PC, but also wrote most of the software that runs on it.

Furthermore, he is devoted full-time now to charitable works, such as providing 19th century gold plated toilet plungers for Africa!

A consumer can demand whatever he wants for his money, and it's up to the companies to provide however they see fit, or if they choose to not provide it, then so be it. As long as there is demand for some product, some one will create the supply or there won't be a market. This implosion you are talking about is the same implosion for the typewriter and traditional print media industry. Companies don't need protection and neither do engineers. If you feel like you need the protection, that tells me what kin

I totally disagree. I'm not demanding cheapness. Instead I want a machine that does the things I want it to do, does them efficiently, is in a package that works for me, and doesn't cost too much. The Eee is just that machine for me.I'm not looking for a powerhouse PC.

Now, when this HP laptop on which I'm typing right now dies, I will replace it with a MacBook since that's what works for my wife (the primary user of this machine). So it's not a matter of every computer being cheap (as you put it). But there

It worries me that the chipset consumes more power than the CPU itself. Since myThnkpad X40 sub note book is working just fine, I guess I'll hold off until the next revision of the Atomplatform is released and then reevaluate.

Your next computer will be faster, smaller, cheaper, more memory, better graphics, consume less power, be quieter and whatnot. I guess all I conclude was that you already have a good machine in this category and isn't in the market for a new one yet. I agree it has potential for improvement but I'd be very concerned if it didn't. To me it sounds like a very good machine available now (or close to).

How about Panasonic? Their ToughBook line seems to fit almost all your requirements. Performance is a bit on the low side if you look at the specs, but in actual practice the use of well-tested chipsets and decent design make up for a lot. My little second-hand CF-18, with its ICH4 ATA controller and 5400 RPM Hitachi disk, blows away my work-supplied Dell with Intel SATA and a nominally faster disk. It runs compiz fast and fluid on a 900Mhz PIIIM and Intel 865 GMA, while the Dell, with a Core2 and two gener

What difference does the power drain of the chipset make if it still gives you 7 hours battery time?

Sure, a lower wattage chipset would give you more, but what exactly is there to worry about?

What difference does the power drain of the chipset make if it still gives you 7 hours battery time?

Sure, a lower wattage chipset would give you more, but what exactly is there to worry about?

The difference is if Intel had mated the Atom CPU with a more apropos low power chipset you would be payingsame amount of your hard earned money for an ultra portable that had maybe 14 hours or more of battery life.

Imagine that. A sub note with close to 20 hours battery life, much like the Tandy 100.

As of now, the Intel Atom is mated to a 3-4(?) year old 945 chipset. Sounds like something was missed here.

If Intel had waited for a low-power chipset to be ready, then we wouldn't have the Atom at all in the meantime, and you'd be getting a 3 hour battery life. It's coming, but Intel has said it's just not ready yet.

Laptop!=cpu+chipset. There is that big screen thingy with its drivers and backlight,RAM and the Flash - which still needs power to write and read. Then there is the analog audio drive, the wireless modules, and probably a load of other stuff. A laptop consists of two main parts that dissipate heat partly through ducted air and partly through convection from the surface. Cutting the CPU power may reduce the fan load quite a lot, but the fan is there mainly to remove heat from a very small, very hot area. A l

The Tandy 100 had no storage (plug in a cassette tape if you want to run or save a program), a 300 baud (maybe went up to 1200 baud) modem with cups that fit over the phone handset (which are no longer common), something like 256K of RAM, and a 24 x 8 character text only display. No network. No storage, no lighted display, no mouse, no pointing device or any kind, no USB ports, no sound, no wireless, no network software. They stopped making them because people stopped buying them. Sure the batteries lasted

"I'm saying seven hours is far from enough."So what exactly are you doing with your computer that requires something like 20-hour (the longevity you mentioned in your earlier post) battery-life? Last time I checked, there's 24 hours in a day, and we sleep roughly 8 of those hours. That leaves you 16 hours of potential computer-use a day. And none of us spend every single waking moment sitting on an untethered computer. If you do, then your problem is not laptop-batteries, but your lifestyle.

I agree. I bought a laptop. Although I certainly don't use it as a portable computer. I use it because it's nice to use on the couch, or is easily transported to the kitchen so I don't have to print recipes. It's almost always plugged in. The amount of battery power in laptops is dispicable. 7 hours should the the minimum for basic laptops. Not something to be happy about. A laptop should at least be able to work all day without worrying about the battery.

Combined with the lean and mean Linux OS, performance is snappy and responsive. With 1GB of RAM in support you can even have two or three programs open at any one time and not encounter any major problems unless you want to watch video,

With one gig of RAM, you can even run two or three programs at once... Not that I long back to everything, seriously WTF it's what I ran on my desktop a few years ago and I had a lot more than that running. Looking at my memory stats 4GB is overkill and 2GB would do, and I got... 20 applications open including a virtualbox version of XP which itself runs 4 apps.

The Atom processor is specifically designed to do one thing at a time, for low-end applications such as the Eee and the E-box. It is a very low-powered single-core chip. So, yes, the fact that it can actually handle a little multitasking is something to take note of.

Modern web pages do in fact require that a whole lot of information be kept in memory (or swap). Other apps don't have as much excuse, but a browser can really only be as lightweight as the content you are browsing.Also modern OSes expect a lot of extra memory and use it to do things like constantly maintain a search index, preload common software, run auto-defragging filesystems, and so on and so forth.

You engineer a computer differently when you have gigs of memory. There's an appeal to having a pile of

Man, those were the days. Yours must have been an Amiga 1000. I got mine a bit later--an A500--that I eventually maxed out with 1MB internally, and another 2MB with an external memory module.

I used to do 3D animations, and I would set up the parameters for each frame, then run multiple instances of the rendering program to run overnight. One at a time, I'd get a frame about every two hours; four at a time, I'd fire it all off before going to sleep, and I'd have four frames waiting for me in the mornin

WHERE is Pixel Qi - Dual Mode battery saving Screen technology and 1 watt system use?http://www.pixelqi.com/(love the Pixel Qi products page with PaperWhite Screen Tech being worked on by them that uses very little power)

It sounds really stupid to me to have a DVI port, and not a VGA port. Why? Because there's a lot more VGA compatible hardware out their than their is DVI compatible hardware.

The small advantage of slightly better graphics output doesn't really outweigh the disadvantage of having to either have an adapter (that people will likely forget or lose), or use a display that supports DVI.

The rate at which hardware prices are dropping is simply breathtaking. Consider it from the seller's angle: a $500 drop in price from say $1500 represents a 33% drop in revenue; a $500 drop in price from $1000, on the other hand, represents a 50% drop in revenue. This wreaks havoc on a lot of business models--and of course, creates a lot of new ones.

Looking at this price trend, it seems like every home will soon be littered with a lot of portables--some fairly new, others, say, one or two years old. There might be one on every coffee table, you might throw one in the bathroom, as well as the one in the bedroom, and so on. Managing and maintaining the software on all these devices will be a chore.

In an article [faunos.com] I co-wrote for the FaunOS project project, we argue that making the boot device detachable and largely hardware agnostic is an attractive solution. The idea is that users carry and maintain only a single copy of an operating environment which they can run on pretty much any device of their choosing. That way, the user accumulates and maintains know-how on a single evolving operating environment rather than having to duplicate that effort across multiple machines. Does this makes sense?

making the boot device detachable and largely hardware agnostic is an attractive solution. The idea is that users carry and maintain only a single copy of an operating environment which they can run on pretty much any device of their choosing. That way, the user accumulates and maintains know-how on a single evolving operating environment rather than having to duplicate that effort across multiple machines. Does this makes sense?

It makes sense, but the implementation leaves something to be desired. In this day and age, an operating system or operating environment is not viable for everyday use unless it has timely and usable mechanisms for installing, reporting, and keeping track of security updates. The problem is that very few [distrowatch.com] linux distributions provide this kind of infrastructure, and of the ones that do, none of them is small enough to fit on a boot device.

an operating system or operating environment is not viable for everyday use unless it has timely and usable mechanisms for installing, reporting, and keeping track of security updates

"Yum update" does that for me. Sure, I don't much care about security updates as I download all the updates regularly. Same with my Windows box, it tells me it wants to update something, so I let it. I don't actually know what it does but it keeps fixing this "critical" and "important" security update all the time.

Again, "yum update" works wonderfully on Redhat and similar systems, but yum is not included in FaunOS. The entire problem that I'm trying to point out is that none of the USB-key based linux distributions include an easy mechanism for security updates, and certainly none of them make the issue of security updates very much of an organizational priority to the degree of mailing lists, bug reporting, and so on.

Nice try at a troll, but the entire problem is that FaunOS doesn't include apt-get. I am not aware of any apt-gettable distributions that even install onto a modest sized USB key, let alone one that deals well with being moved from machine to machine on a daily basis.

In addition, merely including apt-get is not the whole story. There needs to be a community in place to report and respond to security issues. There needs to be a commitment towards maintaining older versions, because not everyone enjoys upgr

I've tried the "Ubuntu live usb with persistence" approach, and it still runs into problems. For starters, persistence is implemented as an overlay on top of a (compressed) base OS, which means that any security updates that you install are not compressed. As a consequence, the amount of space available for system files decreases over time as you overwrite more and more system files with updated versions. On small or even moderate size (4GB) drives, you can easily run out of space in this way. Configuring d

Maybe I missed a memo, but so far all I've found for WiFi-N support on Linux is "legacy mode" where it falls back to B/G. Is there real, MIMO and bonded WiFi-N under Linux for either the Intel or Atheros chipsets?

Even though modding projects like JKK's [blogspot.com] caused 7" touchscreen add-ons to sell out within weeks when the first Eee PC came to market last year, making clear this should be a built-in feature, unfortunately it is missing from the new edition nonetheless, though the review for some reason neither discusses nor deplores its omission.

Anyone coming e.g. from a Psion or Nokia Communicator will know what a difference a touchscreen makes on small devices, and would surely have appreciated it at least as an option.

What bothers me is that ASUS is no longer committed to Linux, and the 901 is the last Eee that will feature Linux as the preferred OS. I'm waiting for other companies to bring out an Atom, and also waiting for Ubuntu to finish their notepad version of 8.04 to run on one of these... which should be very soon.

a) MS are very effective lobbyists, often paying vendors to install their awful OS so they can then charge users for all those silly upgrades - not to mention the huge aftermarket in security/anti-virus utilities. b) MS aside, people seek solutions - and if a killer Linux/Web app appears, then people will order their EEE PC (or other mini laptop) with their preferred OS. Truth be told, in an era of web apps, it's the browser that really counts. I own a 7" EEE PC (black of course) and it's so useful having a

I'm pretty allured by these things, but I sort of had my heart set on playing with an OLPC machine. I just love the idea, and who knows, I thought I might find something in the software to help develop or improve.

If AMD can't put out a competitor to Atom, I hope Negroponte decides to go with Intel for the next version of OLPC. I also hope that high volumes could get the prices even lower than $600. But... yeah, I'm definitely intrigued.

Well, ASUS made good on their announcement to remove the ASUS logo from upcoming models of the Eee PC. This is, apparently, the first step towards spinning off the Eee PC as a separate company.

My opinion? DUMB! ASUS are having the much-envied iPod moment - and they're just throwing it out of the window. The Eee PC is doing/could have done wonders for ASUS' brand name, just as iPod did for Apple's. Too afraid of success, I guess? Nicer/safer to be a mediocrity?

For the record, I am a very satisfied Eee PC 701 user. Toss it into my backpack and go riding my bike to the uni - can't even feel the little critter.

This works for me. If nothing better comes out in the next few weeks this or the MSI Wind is going back to school with my kids in the Fall.

It's small, cheap, light enough. It'll serve them all day. I don't have to freak out if they lose it or break it. It's got enough CPU power and memory to do real work.

I'll take one for me too. I'm tired of lugging around a full sized notebook when this is all I need. For real power and storage I can always remote to a real desktop under Citrix. For light spreadsheets and barcode scanning this will do the trick.

How much money do you have, and how spoiled are your kids? From the first link I saw [gizmodo.com], the MSI Wind is supposed to be priced between $458 to $1072 depending on options. Even at $458, that's quite an expensive device. Not expensive for a portable computer, but expensive none the less. If my kid lost or broke a $500 thing, I would be quite annoyed, and I would not be playing to replace it. Especially considering that a portable computer is nowhere near necessary for kids to have.

The argument these days is that a cheap portable is not much pricier than a cheap desktop, might as well get the portable. I hate to say it, but I have to agree... most people would be perfectly satisfied with a cheap laptop.Me, I'm the opposite: I have no use for a laptop whatsoever. Not unless they make a dual-processor, 8gb ram Raid-5 laptop with dual NICs and gaming-class graphics. Overclockable too, while we're at it.

Until then, the closest thing I'll have to a laptop is a 40lb ATX cube with an LCD

Look, no offense, but it's already getting old to hear that computers surely are used only for reading email and maybe watching a DVD. I keep hearing that since the 90's, and it didn't really get more true over time.Even my old mom is into digital photos as a hobby. And I don't mean just taking the photos, but serious heavy duty filtering and processing too. Yeah, she could go do something else while those finish, but in practice that's not half as much fun. Waiting for a computer to finish something is, fu

except the part where these operations have to happen on your mini laptop. Have you not heard of Citrix? Remote Desktop? Cellular modems? It's possible to have all of this happening on your mainframe, the attached supercomputer cluster, and a few thousand desktops and access them all from the laptop referenced in the fine article via VPN tunnel over wireless modem, public wi-fi, hotel room Internet, or any other mode you choose. I actually do this all day.

I know of no reason why I'd need to debug an Oracle database, edit a photo for press, or update my CAD drawing while I was mid-stream fishing, nor while I was boarding a plane. For some things you just have to wade to shore, wait until the flight is airborne, pull up your pants. This laptop will not play consumer games nor will it run Vista well. If you want one that can join your AD domain you have to get the Linux one -- the XP home or Vista Basic one isn't up for that. For everything else, this laptop is fine.

There is no laptop that will impress your gamer friends. The minimum bar to clear there starts at a kilowatt. They're disgusting.

One more time... these things cost five hundred clams. They do all the stuff laptops do, including run business productivity apps. They're cute and they fit on the plane well. They last all day on one charge. They play media. They have USB ports. They have wireless. They support all of the remote desktop technologies you've ever heard of. They come with software that's truly free, and you can install as much more as you want for free via the Applications menu. They play video and audio. Your choice of operating systems are available. Some of them have firewire. FSM preserve us what the heck do you want from a mini laptop for a measly five Benjamins? Sex?

And you're doing this on a laptop because... why again? Because you can?

If you need this kind of processing you're not doing it on a laptop - but you can always open a window to your compute farm on your mini-notebook as long as you're somewhere your cellular broadband has coverage.

except I actually benefit from my toy whenever I do video processing or launch a few dozen VM's for application testing and network simulation.

It's amazing what you can do with a few of these [intel.com] (a hundred bucks at fry's) and some these [power-on.com], a few of these [newegg.com] and some creative sheet metal work on one of
these [target.com].

You'll need a few other bits too. If you get carried away it would look something like this [helmer.sfe.se]. If you keep your wits nobody would know it from a typical filing cabinet except that instead of storing files it renders frames with 32 cores running at 2.6GHz or launches your precious VMs.

Actually, most people don't have good enough eyesight for one of these minilaptops to be practical. That's why they're mostly for kids. Show me a $400 laptop with a 19+" LCD and I'll switch to a laptop next time I'm in the market.

Pretty close to ruined, I'd say. They get their first real PC at 2, by 13 they're expected to build their own. Cable broadband. This is pretty standard for our larger family - we're all in IT.

An Xbox with a couple games and controllers runs more than this and there's no way I'd buy them that.

I didn't say I'd be happy about it if their mini notebook was lost or trashed, but it wouldn't be a disaster. The first one that gets broken will just be another toy for me to play with the leftover bits. Motherboard? That looks like it would fit in an RC plane...

You might want to consider the newest Eee PC, the 1000. It, like the MSI Wind, sports a 10 inch screen. But it also comes with either a 80 GB HDD or a 40 SSD. The 1000 was just released Taiwan a few days ago and hopefully should be stateside within a month or so. For more details checkout http://backpackcomputing.com/ [backpackcomputing.com]

It's pretty much like a normal widescreen with regards to the aspect ratio.. most laptops are fitted with widescreen LCDs anyway.
Never tried the 700-series Eee, but I have a 900 with 1024x600, and it works really well. No need to scroll sideways while webbrowsing etc..