After the crucifixion the disciples preached against the law of Moses, especially Paul. I said Jesus broke the law of Moses, he magnified it, changed it. He made it so strict no one was able to keep it. The reason was to show the futility and hopelessness in gaining salvation based upon a system of lawkeeping and to show everyone they needed a Saviour. Christ taught law there is no question about that but he also broke the law of Moses. This is one thing that angered the Pharisees so.

Christ's ministery was not a message intended to lead anyone to salvation. It was a preaching of the coming of the earthly Kingdom of God. Christ made the law impossible for anyone to keep in a perfect sense and made it impossible for any one to be blameless and to direct people to the need of a Saviour. The Pharisees were always questioning Jesus about the law. (Matt 15:2) They ask Jesus " why do thy disciples trangress the tradition of the elders"? (Matt. 19:3) the Pharisees ask Jesus "is it lawful for a man to put away his wife?" (Matt. 22:17) Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar?

(This is a similar question as, "Why not do whatever we want to if we're going to be saved anyhow?" I've met those that make the same objection referring to the grace of God, "If Christ died for my sins so they're forgiven, what difference does it make what I do?)

Why did the prophets and apostles put their lives and their loved one's lives in jeapardy every day?

It's counter-intuitive to place your family, your children and your friends lives in harms way when all shall be saved in the end regardless of their actions and beliefs.

THINK.

I would have to say from experience, those who exercise such abuse of authority as persecution of those faithful to their conscience in matters of what they believe about God or what is good are also so impetuous about their use of power that anybody can inspire their vengeance unpredictably for the most frivolous impingements, real or imagined. Most of the persecutions I've received were not remotely appropriate for whatever I'd done, even if I'd been wrong. There also was no ordinary way to anticipate such reactions. In other words, apostles, prophets and testifiers to the truth are not intentionally producing the behavior of wicked men against themselves. In fact, sometimes some of them actually repent.

The love spoken of in the statement, "God is love" is the true motivator in God's kingdom. Self-preservation is not to be despised, whether from threat of immediate temporal harm or more protracted infernal destructions. Beyond what is willed, a rat in a trap struggles, however futilely, with the same drive as a trapped man in testimony to the hope for a better future God has planted in this creation. Self-preservation is also a part of legitimate self-love. When it must be overridden by more important considerations the man shows his superiority to the rat. Because the love of God has not been but slightly experienced, many who claim some affinity to the idea of it show little regard to the ultimacy of it. Casual acknowledgment does not reflect overwhelming habitual immersion.

God's own explanations of faith includes the fact that, "Faith operates by love." Out of love of God and the truth people suffer. It hurts to go against what you like. It's trouble to disagree with others. People who love the truth do this, however. Richard Wurmbrand recounts how those in the Soviet Gulag for faith were nominally Baptists, Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses, Lutherans (and did he mention Mormons?) These distinctions became non-existent in their fellowship of suffering. They were brethren in a sense deeper than their differing mental constructs on Bible themes would have implied if brought together under better circumstances. We are becoming enmeshed in a way of thinking in the USA where all parents holding to a standard Christian or Jewish morality will be liable to prosecution for child abuse for trying to deliver their beloved children from a homosexual lifestyle. Such situations are not resulting from conscious applications of theories of ultimate destiny. Christian Universalists, anihilationists, as well as those believing most will suffer fires eternally in screaming agony are in the same boat here. They will live for the truth regardless. A statistical study (from France?) I read a while back inquired into the beliefs of those that helped people escape the Nazis at the risk of their own lives. Only about a third of them were Christians. Atheists were motivated to help out of a sense of common humanity. It is simply true that some people will help others. Sad to say, most Christians didn't get involved. We all face death soon. If for love of the truth it comes a little sooner, many think that's good enough.

Through verse 35 in Hebrews 11 we see faith and subsequent victories. In verse 35 there is a transition to those whose outcome for faith in this life was to suffer and die without obtaining the promise; in other words, believe and fail. "Others are flogged, not anticipating deliverance, that they may be happening upon a better resurrection." Contrary to your question, this passage doesn't imply there is no difference in the outcome of a life forfeited for faith versus compliance with those coercing you. You propose the idea that the belief in the ultimate salvation of all mankind means a belief that everybody ends up the same. In a number of places, this isn't what Scripture teaches.

To the question, "How are the dead being roused? Now with what body are they coming?" (1 Cor 1535) we find, in the midst of the discussion that there are varieties of bodies and degrees of glory, that as, "...star is excelling star in glory, thus also is the resurrection of the dead." (1 Cor 1541-42) Not everybody is nor will they be the same. Differences will increase.

Consider that there is an inherent quickening to life corresponding to engrafted Divine nature producing behavior from a deeper reality than conscious choice. You can need to lose weight and will to diet, yet keep getting into the refrigerator for a snack. If the underlying subconscious motivation isn't dealt with, often a "hunger" for personal affirmation, then the behavior won't change. You'll continue raiding the leftovers to give yourself tangible approval regardless of constant choices to the contrary. Attempts to use willpower to divert underlying drives from their fulfillment usually fail.

From one person to the next, various beliefs reside differently within each. The degree one is influenced by conscious thought concerning any particular in Christian doctrine, or even anti-christian for that matter, is not consistently the same for anybody. Of course there is an important connection between faith and works. This has proved disasterous for many in human history who have been wrong about what they believed. It will prove to your benefit as you make progress in the knowledge of the Truth. For the multitudes that've heard, it is the few that press in to obey Jesus's words that receive the blessing.

To propose the trueness of a belief should determined by the comparative behaviors of those who do or do not believe it is so problematic as to be completely in doubt. Such a comparison would be interesting, but the actual comparison should be made by compiling facts. An assumption as you've made may blow up a balloon if you place it to your lips while speaking it, but shouldn't be regarded as expanding our minds with truth.

---James Rohde

« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 06:46:34 AM by reFORMer »

Logged

I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

I have shown you all that the Lake of Fire = The Second Death = Destruction.

And I have shown you, Peacetroll, that lose, destroy, perish, anihilate = apolumi = things that are found, saved, returned.

Compare the Greek for "destroy" in Mat 1028 with other occurences of the same word. It's used repeatedly in the 3 parables about things lost, perished, destroyed, anihilated -- pick one; it's the same word! -- in Luke 15. This was what the one sheep was called (anihilated?) that the Shepherd reasoned with us that we would also track down to save in Luke 154,6. I like the example, between that of the Shepherd (Jesus) saving the 99+1=100 (%) sheep and the Father with the prodigal son, of the woman (Spirit) whose drachma was "annihilated" in Luke 158-9! It is out of love for what they see value in that they desire for the destroyed to be saved.

If you'll follow the path indicated below you'll see a more complete post I recently made on this subject specifically for your benefit. They do have a variety of medications to try and see if something will help for people with memory loss these days.Tentmaker Discussion Forum > Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation > Arguments Against Universal Salvation > Questions to the Universalist. Reply # 56 on page 3

Logged

I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

We are not being saved from what will happen in the future, but from the death we were all involved in now. Without Christ we are spiritually dead. Just look around yourself. Isn't this world proof enough that we definetly need the Kingdom in its fullness? Now, that's a reason to lay down your life. Out of Love for our fellow creatures. If one is consummed by this absolute Unconditional Love of our Heavenly Father you can't do anything but lay down your life, even for your enemies, cause you will see them through His eyes. Their salvation from the darkness they are caught in will be more important to you than your own life on this planet.

Witout true repentance (change of mind) no one will be saved from the darkness that they live in. In other words: No one will be saved until they are saved. How shall they know they are already reconciled if we don't tell them? How shall they believe to their full salvation? And our lives preach far louder then our words, for sure.

So, Come Holy Spirit, and break our hearts with the Father's Love, that all may see the Glory of Your Son displayed in us. We are so tired of words. Let us see Your Kingdom come, Father, and Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

Logged

It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

So, Come Holy Spirit, and break our hearts with the Father's Love, that all may see the Glory of Your Son displayed in us. We are so tired of words. Let us see Your Kingdom come, Father, and Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

We wait with great anticipation your ongoing research regarding apollumi/ ajpovllumi, the foundation upon which o[leqroß/ olethros stands. Can you disclose to us why there is salvation firmly linked with both words?

If you save your life you will apollumi/ destroy it. But if you destroy/apollumi your life for My sake you will save it.

And, Troll, why is it that the individual turned over for o[leqroß destruction has his spirit saved in the Day of the Lord? Hmmmmmmm

« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 04:23:33 PM by FineLinen »

Logged

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

And, Troll, why is it that the individual turned over for o[leqroß destruction has his spirit saved in the Day of the Lord? Hmmmmmmm

You used the word individual as if it were any one in the world. Paul was speaking to the brotherhood in Christ about a member of that group, who believed in Christ.

1 Corinthians 51It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

What you were refering to is a brother in faith doing evil and not turning from it.To turn him out of the group in his fleshly life, but that his spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord. He is not talking about those who are without the brotherhood.

1 Corinthians 5:11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

I was hinting at nothing, simply quoting Paul about what the point was.The last was to show that he wanted people acting immorally not to be able to corrupt the morals of all the others in the church. That not doing so was a lack of knowledge of the truth. To their shame. That to not chastize a brother for doing evil is to colude with him in that evil.

Logged

Matthew 7:14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I was hinting at nothing, simply quoting Paul about what the point was.The last was to show that he wanted people acting immorally not to be able to corrupt the morals of all the others in the church. That not doing so was a lack of knowledge of the truth. To their shame. That to not chastize a brother for doing evil is to colude with him in that evil.

See when you tell us what you see, then we can understand what you are trying to convey.

Now as for the morals of the church, who's definition of morals? Choose one and there are 37999 others to speak to. We judge no one apart from folk espousing ET.

This is an open forum to discuss with mutual discovery, unique IMO to the net as far as forums go. On a SDA, JW or Mormon forum, you would not last long.

A few folk here have hinted on the way you post kindly to sarcastic, I guess you should heed their advice and try discuss a topic to conclusion instead of nursing simultaneous threads arguing essentially the same thing, I think you are even getting confused with the topics.

I was simply clarifying who Paul was speaking about as having their spirit saved at the day of God.A member of the church,nothing more to it.

The fact is Troll, you have clarified nada. There is simply no support for assuming that the individual turned over to Satan for olethros destruction was anything other than an attendee of the church of Corinth, unless you are assuming all attendees are believers in any church. Are you aware that Sardis had a "few" who had not soiled their garments? Yep, a few.

And again.....

Quote

We wait with great anticipation your ongoing research regarding apollumi/ ajpovllumi, the foundation upon which o[leqroß/ olethros stands. Can you disclose to us why there is salvation firmly linked with both words?

« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 11:22:51 PM by FineLinen »

Logged

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

So what is it? Someone who never heard, or those born in a Moslem country that were trained up into believing in an anti-christ Jesus, they are anihilated? Only those of the Church in this life are human? There is no more teaching or correcting beyond this life.

And the promise that he shall pour out His Spirit upon ALL flesh is what?

And, the only ones saved are those getting the Holy Spirit here and now? The rest are, what, non-human? How come the Bible nowhere acknowledges this, either by overt doctrine or terminology? All mankind are at differing times sons of God or sons of the devil. The division is not between men and the devils offspring but mankind itself divided as sons of God or the devil. Farther, "Christ died for the un-godly" so you can't say these non-humans are the un-godly. All the things you might use to label your non-humans Scripture says we once were also. Paul uses himself as an example of the worst or chief of sinners.

Jesus came as a human being, the son of man (Adam.) He was made sin.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 11:28:28 PM by reFORMer »

Logged

I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Yet Jesus himself would hang out with outcasts and sinners, and when one would confess their sinfulness...he didn't cause them to suffer some punishment, but rather told them to "go forth and sin no more". Any church consisting of only those free from sin, would be an empty church.

In the Gospel of John Jesus is called the son of God 5 times and called the son of man 55 times. (Which just happens to be the number of persons Calvin had executed for heresy: 55.)

So you say He's not the son of man because He's the son of man (in heaven)? Like I'm going to believe that? So, when in heaven as the son of man He's really not the son of man. So what in hell is He? (Don't let me put any words in your mouth to answer this one.) He hasn't changed by being born of resurrection yet, so as son of man in hell He's not man again? (1 Pet 317-20 and specially 1 Pet 46)

What I want to know is when is there any time left for Him to be man at all in this scheme of denying the obvious you've come up with?

« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 03:28:20 AM by reFORMer »

Logged

I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

jabcat

So you say He's not the son of man because He's the son of man (in heaven)? Like I'm going to believe that? So, when in heaven as the son of man He's really not the son of man. So what in hell is He? (Don't let me put any words in your mouth to answer this one.) He hasn't changed by being born of resurrection yet, so as son of man in hell He's not man again? (1 Pet 317-20 and specially 1 Pet 46)

What I want to know is when is there any time left for Him to be man at all in this scheme of denying the obvious you've come up with.

Possible the term means simply, He's been there (heaven), from there, and is 'of' there on a spiritual plane? Speaking more of His essence? My cent and a half.

Well, if Jesus is not the son of man because he's the son of man in heaven, then how can the only mankind Peacetroll would have saved, churchmen, be men? They are the one's He's made, "...to live together with the Christ...and did raise us up together, and did seat us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." (Eph 25-6) By his reasoning the mankind that are in heaven are not mankind. Yet he wants us to believe the rest are not men either.

Jesus never gets to be man which makes sense since mankind isn't ever man either.

Kind of a reverse Universalism: Nobody gets saved because there are no men to be saved. That fits my experience with (non)humans more than, "I called you all Elohim, all of you El Elyon."

Excuse me, I'll be back in a moment. Rod Serling's at the door.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 03:51:09 AM by reFORMer »

Logged

I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

jabcat

Maybe I wasn't clear (Twilight Zone?). I'm not trying to say He's not the Son of Man...I'm saying wrt the fact(?) that He wasn't in Heaven at that moment, He was still the Son of Man (man) but also still divine (heavenly)...just trying to resolve a difficult verse to understand...