gotribe31 wrote:Who do you all suggest they go out and break the bank on this offseason? What one or two players on the FA market will have this team in the playoffs, exactly?

If they can grab up Cliffie and Carl Crawford that'll help.

They spent $10million on the 2010 draft and went over slot a number of times to get deals done.

Perhaps some would prefer John Buck at 3yrs and $18m. I'm fine with the way they're going about things.

The biggest problem is they're late to that particular party.

It is the Tribe boards though. You have to give a wide berth.

Hmmm...I like where your head is at. If we sign Crawford, that will give us our leadoff guy, and Lee should come at a hometown discount. He probably would have signed already if Shapiro hadn't lowballed him initally.

I hear Justin Upton is available too. We should deal Cord Phelps and Beau Mills for him. Then flip Raffie Perez and Jeremy Sowers for Zach Grienke (he's available!) and we should be all set

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

gotribe31 wrote:Who do you all suggest they go out and break the bank on this offseason? What one or two players on the FA market will have this team in the playoffs, exactly?

If they can grab up Cliffie and Carl Crawford that'll help.

They spent $10million on the 2010 draft and went over slot a number of times to get deals done.

Perhaps some would prefer John Buck at 3yrs and $18m. I'm fine with the way they're going about things.

The biggest problem is they're late to that particular party.

It is the Tribe boards though. You have to give a wide berth.

Hmmm...I like where your head is at. If we sign Crawford, that will give us our leadoff guy, and Lee should come at a hometown discount. He probably would have signed already if Shapiro hadn't lowballed him initally.

I hear Justin Upton is available too. We should deal Cord Phelps and Beau Mills for him. Then flip Raffie Perez and Jeremy Sowers for Zach Grienke (he's available!) and we should be all set

You'll never get Upton for Phelps and Mills dude. You're gonna have to throw in Donald and probably Crowe.

And damn if I don't shudder at the thought of including Raffy Perz in a Greinke deal. That's gonna sting.

"If every four or five years we can have a shot at the World Series like we did in 2007. And compete for a playoff spot like we did in 2005, that's as good as it gets in this market..." Plain Dealer 8/6/09

If the Tribe does have an uprising in the next 3-4 years, a large portion of the fan base won't see it coming and if they get hit with an injury or expiring contract, it could be gone like a fart in the wind.

God bless 'em if they can work their patient plan and make a perfect series of frugal moves while hitting on draft picks. I do like the youth movement. I just hope they are not surprised when/if they show signs of life and the turnstiles still don't spin. I think this town going to need to see more than one season of good baseball to spend on seeing the team rather than spending to see the game.

IMO, the time to spend was after the 2004 season and the 2005 season and they didn't do it then. If they're not going to spend when the time is right hopefully they'll at least continue to spend in the draft.

Do any fans actually believe the stuff that comes out of the pieholes of Dolan & Shapiro?

1st Shapiro says "the pieces are in place". Then Dolan says that "some fans are excited about the way they're going about things".

I don't want them to spend on mediocre FA's. I want them to push for much more revenue sharing so some day they can actually spend on decent FA's.

This is the last year of the current, miserable CBA. If small market owners like Dolan don't step up, unify & demand that the Bankees, Bosox & a few others pay more, then stop telling the fans about the "market restraints". The fans can't do a thing about the market restraints...the owners can. If they refuse to do anything, then just shut up.

If the Dolans owned BP, they'd give promotions to everyone responsible for the oil spill.

The Indians are at their worst when they "splurge" (I use that term relatively).

That's when you end up with Aaron Boone, Chuck Finley and Kerry Wood.

The worst thing in baseball you can be is in the middle of the pack in spending. You spend too much money on middling free agents who retard development of young players and from whom you don't get great return.

I don't want this franchise to start spending money. I want it to hire people that know what the hell they're doing at drafting and developing talent.

The only time spending money worked was when the Indians had a steady cashflow coming in from The Jake and they were a top five payroll team. That's gone forever.

Go pay the guys who work for the Marlins whatever they want. Poach them. That would be money worth spending.

I don't want any more 10 million dollar free agents. They all suck.

Either get a stud in free agency or use that money elsewhere.

Too many times the Indians have been stuck in between. When they go young (1991, 2003) they've built teams that don't suck. When they get mild success and start spending on free agents (2006, 2008), they end up pissing the money down the toilet.

Just start developing studs who are cheap and controllable (heh, that sounds easy doesn't it?) and we won't be worried about the payroll.

Erie Warrior wrote:It's not the right time now because they let all their good players walk. I know they can't sign them all, but not a single one? Ever? WTF is that?

They extended Hafner, CC in 05, Sizemore, and Carmona. Can't fault them for Grady's injuries. Hafner had an 04-06 that ranked in the top of all of MLB when they signed him in '07, though he was off to a slow start that year.

It's not like they haven't spent money. Maybe they haven't the last two years, but they've spent money. They've had some bad luck with injuries and a couple unfortunate signings.

Look at Kerry Wood's last couple months with NYY. He still has it. He just didn't have it here, whether he's a guy who won't go balls out for a bad team or he simply couldn't get in to a rhythm.

They're not keeping a 1B/DH like Victor for the money he'll be looking at. They're not keeping Lee for 35-40% of their payroll, and they have zero chance at keeping CC. What don't people understand about this?

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

skatingtripods wrote:They're not keeping a 1B/DH like Victor for the money he'll be looking at. They're not keeping Lee for 35-40% of their payroll, and they have zero chance at keeping CC. What don't people understand about this?

Why not? You have to spend money to make money. Imagine how good we'd be if we still had CC, Lee, and Pavano.

Most of our "fans" quit caring because they didn't resign them.

It sucks that we already know Choo is as good as gone within the next year or two. It's a never ending cycle and it gets to be too much.

skatingtripods wrote:They're not keeping a 1B/DH like Victor for the money he'll be looking at. They're not keeping Lee for 35-40% of their payroll, and they have zero chance at keeping CC. What don't people understand about this?

That's the point. All of those players are good. 95% of the current Indians are not. If you want to win, keep good players. Yes you have to pay for them. Cleveland can support a team with an 80-90 million dollar payroll. They have done it before. It wasn't all that long ago that this team averaged 3 million a year in attendance. If Dolan wants to make more money, win some ball games.

How much lower does the payroll go? 40 million? 30 million? Attendance under 1 million? Will that be the right time to spend?

Erie Warrior wrote:That's the point. All of those players are good. 95% of the current Indians are not. If you want to win, keep good players. Yes you have to pay for them. Cleveland can support a team with an 80-90 million dollar payroll. They have done it before. It wasn't all that long ago that this team averaged 3 million a year in attendance. If Dolan wants to make more money, win some ball games.

How much lower does the payroll go? 40 million? 30 million? Attendance under 1 million? Will that be the right time to spend?

2005: 12th of 14 in attendance, won 93 games.2007: 9th of 14 in attendance, won 96 games.

Yes, Cleveland can support a team with an 80-90 million dollar payroll. But, why would the Dolans spend that much money when there is a plan in place. You're looking at a group of minor leaguers who have won TWO consecutive minor league championships. Akron in '09, Columbus in '10. That's not coincidence. Some of these kids can flat play. When they get here, much like 2007, if we have a shot, they'll spend the money to acquire pieces. Were they game-changing names? Not at all. But they were veterans to help in the clubhouse and contribute a bit on the field.

You can't have both, guys. Either the young kids play and develop or they're blocked by a veteran signing. What makes more sense at this point?

Again, open market, why would Lee or CC stay here? No matter how much money we throw at them. There's no point in matching an offer from a big market team. Why play on a losing team? Cliff went 22-3 and we won 81 games. 12 games under at the break, and that was with 2 months of CC. One or two players don't do shit. One or two players with a group of talented youngsters does something.

Look, here's the way I see it. They spent 10M on a lottery ticket in the Draft. That's what everybody wants here, right? Spending 10M on guys who might make it? You don't spend 10M on the draft AND 20M on free agents.

Remind me again why a guy like Beltre would want to come here. Remind me again why a guy like Lee would want to stay here. Remind me again why CC would stay here with 200M thrown at him.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

skatingtripods wrote: But, why would the Dolans spend that much money when there is a plan in place. You're looking at a group of minor leaguers who have won TWO consecutive minor league championships. Akron in '09, Columbus in '10. That's not coincidence. Again, open market, why would Lee or CC stay here? No matter how much money we throw at them. There's no point in matching an offer from a big market team. Why play on a losing team?

A plan? Really? The plan is to save as much money a possible. They will lose 95 games next season and they will begin to move Choo/ Grady/ Fausto and drop the payroll to $40 million. And guess what, it won't be time to spend next off season either. Why, because they have a core nucleus of young talent that has won at every level of minor league ball. And that's all they'll ever win. Because the Indians best players are career AAAers. While every other team takes Cleveland's ML talent and gives them high upside guys that might make it to average. Did you see the lineup this season? The reason no one want's to play in Cleveland is because the humps they put out there day in and day out. There is almost zero ML talent in the entire Indians organization. And it's the owner's fault. Stop with the "Plan" bullshit. Stop with the "mid-market team" nonsense. If Dolan wanted a winner, he'd build one. The only thing he wants is to not lose money. And he's doing poorly at it.

Erie Warrior wrote:A plan? Really? The plan is to save as much money a possible. They will lose 95 games next season and they will begin to move Choo/ Grady/ Fausto and drop the payroll to $40 million. And guess what, it won't be time to spend next off season either. Why, because they have a core nucleus of young talent that has won at every level of minor league ball. And that's all they'll ever win. Because the Indians best players are career AAAers. While every other team takes Cleveland's ML talent and gives them high upside guys that might make it to average. Did you see the lineup this season? The reason no one want's to play in Cleveland is because the humps they put out there day in and day out. There is almost zero ML talent in the entire Indians organization. And it's the owner's fault. Stop with the "Plan" bullshit. Stop with the "mid-market team" nonsense. If Dolan wanted a winner, he'd build one. The only thing he wants is to not lose money. And he's doing poorly at it.

Bro, I like you, and I like your posts, but this is far and away the most close-minded post I've ever seen of yours.

Zero talent in the organization? What do you actually know about this organization? Again, you don't win back to back minor league championships if none of those guys have talent. Baseball America's been raving about our system lately. We've shot up the organizational rankings. Those people know far more about those players than you do.

You want to be pessimistic, fine. I've seen these kids in person in both Akron and Columbus. They've got some kids who can play. I see what scouts have to say. I see what BA has to say. The track record of those kids, to this point, speaks for itself. Whether it translates to the big leagues or not remains to be seen. But the future looks brighter than it did two years ago.

I watch every game. I go to nearly 30 a year. I'm fully aware of the lineup and the economic situation of the team. I view it differently than you do, but at least I'm willing to try and understand the other viewpoint.

Don't support the team EW. They don't give a fuck and neither do the people around here. But you're way off-base with your post. Way off-base.

I'll stop with my logical points, though. God forbid logic be used in this forum.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

The Royals are the poker player who calls even though his hand is weak. At least the Tribe knows how to fold'em and get max value for their chips. So they're playing close to the vest...great. If your short-stacked you need to play smart and hope you can get lucky every 5th hand or so.

Erie Warrior wrote:A plan? Really? The plan is to save as much money a possible. They will lose 95 games next season and they will begin to move Choo/ Grady/ Fausto and drop the payroll to $40 million. And guess what, it won't be time to spend next off season either. Why, because they have a core nucleus of young talent that has won at every level of minor league ball. And that's all they'll ever win. Because the Indians best players are career AAAers. While every other team takes Cleveland's ML talent and gives them high upside guys that might make it to average. Did you see the lineup this season? The reason no one want's to play in Cleveland is because the humps they put out there day in and day out. There is almost zero ML talent in the entire Indians organization. And it's the owner's fault. Stop with the "Plan" bullshit. Stop with the "mid-market team" nonsense. If Dolan wanted a winner, he'd build one. The only thing he wants is to not lose money. And he's doing poorly at it.

Bro, I like you, and I like your posts, but this is far and away the most close-minded post I've ever seen of yours.

Zero talent in the organization? What do you actually know about this organization? Again, you don't win back to back minor league championships if none of those guys have talent. Baseball America's been raving about our system lately. We've shot up the organizational rankings. Those people know far more about those players than you do.

You want to be pessimistic, fine. I've seen these kids in person in both Akron and Columbus. They've got some kids who can play. I see what scouts have to say. I see what BA has to say. The track record of those kids, to this point, speaks for itself. Whether it translates to the big leagues or not remains to be seen. But the future looks brighter than it did two years ago.

I watch every game. I go to nearly 30 a year. I'm fully aware of the lineup and the economic situation of the team. I view it differently than you do, but at least I'm willing to try and understand the other viewpoint.

Don't support the team EW. They don't give a fuck and neither do the people around here. But you're way off-base with your post. Way off-base.

I'll stop with my logical points, though. God forbid logic be used in this forum.

Adam, uphill battle here. What you say makes sense.

Major League Baseball does not. People view the Indians as a cog in a crooked, unfair game. Period. The Indians are one of the many teams which continue to allow the game to be unfair, because they make money. For the thouisandth time, if everyone in baseball INCLUDING THE SMALL MARKET TEAMS weren't making money hand over fist, the game would cease to be unfair. NO WAY would the competitive advantages, unseen in any other sport, be allowed to continue.

So, the Tribe will take a lot of shit concerning their financial decisions. Some logical, some illogical, but all fueled by a disdain for what's going on with the sport.

Those that love the game, certainly spend the money, go down there, have fun, do what you wanna do. But it's completely understandable that some refuse to go down there on principle.

Bottom line, the financial framework is what it is. All about decisions within that framework, and, what's abundantly clear is the Indians have made numerous poor decisions in recent years that have left them where they are right now. Decisions that have involved money (Hafner, free agents etc.) and decisions that have not (draft etc). The length of time in which these poor decisions were made has put them in a big hole, and they aren't close to crawling out of it. Compounding this is the length of time has also outlasted "the cycle" that small market teams need to be inside of. In other words, say you draft poorly for 5-6 years. You are looking at at least that amount of time to rise from the bottoming out point, barring exceptions. Well, you don't have that time. The small market team needs to get good FAST, because if it takes you 6 years, the guys that started the resurgence are on their way to New York.

This is a serious, serious issue here. If they had 3-4 blue chippers close to major league ready, maybe they are good during Carlos Santana's tenure here. As it looks now, that's not going to be the case.

So, we can argue money RIGHT NOW, and it really doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Give me several dozen good decisions in the next couple years, than we can bicker about where the dollars go. And here lies the problem, Adam would agree with this last paragraph, and the other side doesn't trust that they will spend should good decisions be made.

Whatever good points are raised above, Dolan isn't going to earn himself any goodwill among the fan base when he says shit like this:

When New York and Boston spend, they're spending from their profits.

Don't businesses in all kinds of other industries re-invest profits into the business to help it grow? Boneheaded statement. Just admit that all you care about is profit; don't act all "poor us, small market team!". Dick.

Why do people continually expect Dolan (or any other owner) to voluntarily lose money with his asset? The point of owning a baseball team for these millionares is not to bankrupt themselves while trying to bring a championship to a desperate fanbase. The point is to make money. The best way for Dolan to make money is to build this team from within to the point of contention, and then selectively add payroll to augment the roster built through the draft and trades to try and win a championship. Which he has shown that he will do with the Kerry Wood aquisition, DeRosa trade etc.

2008 wasn't a failure of the front office. It was a failure on the part of the players to not live up to their potential on the field. A team with the reigning Cy Young winner and the soon to be Cy Young winner scuffled out of the gate and was out of contention by late May. Shockingly, it wasn't Eric Wedge's fault either. Even after 2008, they went out and added payroll. '

Anyone who thinks we have no talent in the organization simply doesn't know anything about the organization. Anyone who thinks we should spend our way to contention by signing free agents doesn't know anything about the quality of free agents available or the free market and how economics works.

As Pauly C. said, Dolan needs a better press secretary to frame his comments in a little more positive light. But that doesn't mean what he's saying isn't true. The Yankees/Red Sox/Twins MAKE MORE MONEY than we do so they can afford to SPEND MORE MONEY. Its alarmingly simple.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

exiledbuckeye wrote:Whatever good points are raised above, Dolan isn't going to earn himself any goodwill among the fan base when he says shit like this:

When New York and Boston spend, they're spending from their profits.

Exactly.

Dolan & other small market owners have a chance after the 2011 season to get their hands on more of the profits of the Bankees, Bosox & a few others. If they don't do it, then it's their own fault. The fans are sick & tired of hearing about it.

It's time for them (the small market owners) to take a stand & level the playing field somewhat. If they refuse to do so, then they deserve to see more than half empty stadiums.

If the Dolans owned BP, they'd give promotions to everyone responsible for the oil spill.

Eckersley wrote:It's time for them (the small market owners) to take a stand & level the playing field somewhat. If they refuse to do so, then they deserve to see more than half empty stadiums.

Why would they have any pull? I realize it's not a small market, but SF won the WS with a team built from within. TB went to a WS with a team built from within. That's exactly what MLB and the top half of the payroll teams in MLB would say. Build from within and follow the business model that seems to be working. We all know it really isn't, but that's what the reaction would likely be.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

Eckersley wrote:It's time for them (the small market owners) to take a stand & level the playing field somewhat. If they refuse to do so, then they deserve to see more than half empty stadiums.

Why would they have any pull?

They'll only have pull if they stick together. Let's say 28 owners are on board with raising revenue sharing from 31% to 40%. The Bosox & Bankees have no choice but to go along. If there's no agreement, those 2 have the most to lose by far.

I realize it's not a small market, but SF won the WS with a team built from within. TB went to a WS with a team built from within.

Yeah, TB built a team thru a decade of good drafting & FA signings. Now their fans get to watch that team get picked apart 1 player at a time. Crawford, Benoit & Soriano for starters. SF is in a big enough market that they have the revenue to keep some of their home grown stars.

If the small market owners really cared about their fan base they'd hold out for greater revenue sharing. If they don't hold out, then they deserve to sit back & allow the Bankees & other big market teams to take their best players off their hands.

If the Dolans owned BP, they'd give promotions to everyone responsible for the oil spill.

Unfortunately, Eck, you and I both know that the league is run by BOS, NYY, PHI, CHC, NYM, and maybe one or two other teams. You won't get the middle-of-the-pack teams like MIN, STL, SF, and some of the others on board with this because they want bottom-feeders in the league. You also would probably have the MLBPA against this because higher revenue-sharing percentages mean smaller available contracts for the players.

IMO, the system is irreparably broken. It's a matter of coming to terms with that and accepting it. Which is what I've done and why I can still enjoy baseball. Just have to hope that your drafting gambles pay off. I'll take one WS in my lifetime, that's all I need.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

skatingtripods wrote:IMO, the system is irreparably broken. It's a matter of coming to terms with that and accepting it. Which is what I've done and why I can still enjoy baseball.

I give you a lot of credit ST. You have a lot more patience than I. I love baseball, but I won't spend another dime on MLB until the worst system in all of sports is changed. I'll go to minor league games & I'm fine with that.

It's gotten to the point that the only time I watch MLB on TV is to root for players on my fantasy teams.

If the Dolans owned BP, they'd give promotions to everyone responsible for the oil spill.