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But you missed the point of opinion on Spiritual and IP...having to produce results.
I could say "What is the value of thousands of people all agreeing on a thing.....then meeting someone who blows that up and they have to start over?"
I guess we can all agree.....they all agree...they were wrong.

Many organizations, frequently circle the wagons and shoot arrows...just before they give up, but in this case there are no enemies.
Dan

I don't agree. That is your point. You consistently say others are wrong. The three fingers are pointing back at you.

Contests, in my opinion, are useless. There is always someone who says they are bigger or stronger. So what? When a person is teaching a class and leading the mind as many teachers do the students are set up before they walk in the door. They already think they suck and have given away their power.

A teacher can set up a situation to make it seem like their way is the only way. I have seen it. I can see it on AikiWeb.

Thank you for the kind words. Oddly enought, my sangha name is "Compassionate Heart of service" in my TNH practice. I also happen to be a Christian Theologian and would introduce you to the word (Irenics). Perhaps you already know it, but I love its sound. It is the opposite of polemics (focussing upon what we cannot agree on).

Christianity is full of beliefs.... to a fault. Indeed, in Harvey Cox's (Harvard Seminary Professor) 2009 book on "The Future of faith, he called the last 2,000 years an age of belief (rather than faith). It is there that I got the differences in definition.

For me, Rumi cuts to the quick. "Sell your Cleverness and buy Bewilderment" he says (Coleman barks translation). The more we surrender our hearts to eachother, the more we will find commonality. And even when we find ourselves stuck in "attachment" (must have this; cannot have that) we can make friends with it and watch it arise and go away without even judging our judgment. he he he.

Would we could do this with eachother as well.

Namaste and Puha

Chris

Hi Chris,

Well, I am all in favour of an irenic movement in Aikido!

Irenic is a nice word.

Erasmus tried to reconcile protestants and catholics in a irenic way, did he not?

The first Dutch ship to arrive in Japan was named the "Liefde"; Love (referring to the letter to the Corinthians).

But before sailing to Japan this ship had another name, it used to be called "Erasmus".
A number of years ago they retrieved the sculpture of Erasmus that was on the back of the ship. It had been kept in a temple where people revered it as a statue of a kami.

It has been a long time since I read Rumi, will have to find another copy. I like the word bewilderment here. We do lose the capacity to be amazed because of this attachment to our own opinions. And with it we lose the capability of making friends. But when we get stuck in this attachment it is not always so easy to let it go. Even the zen way of watching it arise and go away takes practice.

Hi Graham,
In the sense that brave people find themselves within a "fight" and might still be described as not-fighting, I tend to agree. Otherwis, I would say many a brave person fights, too; indeed it is the brave who "fight" against injustice or who might "fight" the swift currents of a river to help someone.
Also, thank you Tom and Chris for your exchange. I've really enjoyed reading it.
Merci, et bon chance tout le monde! May we all learn to speak each others' languages a bit better.
Au revoir,
Matt

Hi Matthew.
I use the statement as a good contemplation tool. Only cowards fight. Now, holding that as a fact (purely for the sake of the exercise) then proceed to inspect all thoughts that contradict it.

It has led me to many recognition's along the way and re-evaluations.

Just the word fight implies mind and body out of harmony. Fight also is fear based so it leads to considering action where spirit mind and body are in harmony, untroubled, yet active in such a way as to bring harmony back to the scene for then the view is that someone attacking is merely the scene and it is the scene which needs addressing.

Then I found for me that bravery was more to do with spiritual flight and fear. Many 'nutters' can be very brave for all kinds of nutty reasons. So I found that the 'good' condition, where the person is calm and untroubled and spiritually there I would call courage. Thus courage is far from bravery.

Can you really fight injustice? You can see it, stand up to it, communicate it, get it changed. Yes you can handle injustice. Sometimes one may have to fight but that's last resort.com and nearly always the result of many, many lost opportunities to prevent such a dire circumstance happening in the first place. We could say it's a result therefor of laziness most of the time.

I would say Aikido teaches us these things when done from the viewpoint of harmony. It teaches us to notice the little flags that need handling before things devolve into chaos and fight.

I don't agree. That is your point. You consistently say others are wrong. The three fingers are pointing back at you.

Contests, in my opinion, are useless. There is always someone who says they are bigger or stronger. So what? When a person is teaching a class and leading the mind as many teachers do the students are set up before they walk in the door. They already think they suck and have given away their power.

A teacher can set up a situation to make it seem like their way is the only way. I have seen it. I can see it on AikiWeb.

The discussion is about spirituality and IP
Well you can try to arrest and kidnap terms and concepts that are well established and try to make them your own. Just don't get sensitive when someone tells you it sounds silly.
Internal strength/power is well established and your founder made no end of quoting classic concepts...exactly. Many of his doka...are not his. On any other day I would say he plagiarized the classics, but he was after all, a researcher and was being fair. Aikido was originally founded on well known IP concepts. The fact that no one I have met can do them, and few can intelligently discuss what Ueshiba WAS QUOTING is on you guys...not me. No matter what, it doesn't change the fact that IP was established, is quoted from China to Japan, and your founder quoted them to a tee.

You might want to make a case that Judaism means aliens made the sun and water faeries are going to take over mars. It's never going make your version of Judaism correct. You would simply be....wrong.

I don't think your model applies to me so I don't see it's relevance. I go to other peoples dojo...without my own ukes, or to neutral territory. Mostly it is static training, but I get in scraps as well with people not too fond of my message. So far...so good.
I just don't know how to "set up" someone like Bill Gleason, Bruce Bookman, or accomplished BJJers like Chris Mckuen, so you need to help me out here. Just how did they think they suck?
Dan

I offer this in the spirit of learning mindfulness, not as an attack. The fact that 10 people agree upon something and derive feelings of unity and harmony from their agreement does not mean that what they agree upon is objectively correct. So long as they do not or cannot test the subject of their agreement their harmony is a product of assumption. However, those good feelings may be more important to them than discovering if the agreement is in fact based on reality, in which case it is preferable to maintain the joint illusion and remain happy.

I test everything I can since I am deeply familiar with the human tendency to cling to that which makes them feel good about what they hold onto. Spirituality is the safest ground of all since there is no test which we can all agree to, At least when someone designs a 1 winged plane we can all watch the crash.
'A scholar was being rowed across a river and by way of conversation asked the boatman," my dear chap, have you ever learnt to read?" The boatman replied, "no." To which the scholar, "well then you have wasted half your life." Sometime later a storm began and the boatman asked, have you ever learnt to swim?" and the scholar shook his head. the boatman then said, "well you just lost all yours".

I agree with the first paragraph, well put.

Like the boatman story too. However, spirituality being the safest ground since there is no test which we can all agree to I see as not true and believed as such would fit into the first paragraph.

What I like about Aikido is that there are physical tests for the spiritual. Nearly all spiritual people I meet find the reality of this fascinating.

There are other well known models for how real IP can cross over and inform and feel like spiritual concepts and how it feels in the body and the way it is trained was indeed tied to religious practices.
However, to say it is religious simply shows ignorance of the subject.
Chanting is a good example. Some may deeply believe that chanting certain mudras gave them power, when in reality it was using certain vowel sounds to merely change pressure. Next? What to do with that pressure.
Then you can add certain feelings that come when projecting-particularly with long weapons, and how it can form a heady rush.
We can then add Moving energy work in the body, which is a whole other ball game.

But we then go back to "talking about it" And thinking you "got it" in relation to IP, when in reality there is so much more. There are lots of Japanese and Western Shihan running around with pieces of the puzzle who would be devestated by someone more fully developed by doing it, rather than talking about it.

The truly wonderful aspect about this work is that you cannot B.S. your way out of it (well except on the internet). In person, you either got it or you don't, and you will be found out in all but an instant. Hence, why most will avoid those who either do have it...or know what it is supposed to feel like in someone who does.
Dan

The same could be said for you and others that make assumptions all the time. How do you know how good Graham is or how he feels and his understanding of anything when you have not met him?

By videos. Contrary to all hope....a connected body doesn't lie, nor does a disconnected one.
I have stopped analyzing them for the simple reason that it is increasingly obvious to the widening and educated crowds of teachers now training IP. I have dozens of letters of Shihan going back to their students and seeing them with new eyes and writing me that "My students are a mess!!"

They now see what I have been talking about for decades. That you and others do not see it, leaves us at an impasse. But I am not going to change my mind....ever. Apparently, neither are the hosts of people who now see what I see and are changing. Oddly...weirdly....inexplicably.....their stability and power and softness goes up as they train.
For the others?
Well, I think of what one of my Sensei wrote years ago:
Many people talk
You...shugyo
Years go by
People still talking
Then you get up to demonstrate
Then everyone knows the truth.

I don't debate this stuff anymore Mary. I keep saying it over and over. The way the arts are practiced by the vast majority has either left people weak and ineffectual, or all muscle.
In person, from Shodan to Shihan they have failed. And you are not delivering.
IP concepts and practices out of China to Japan... as stated and practiced by Morihei Ueshiba fixes that.
What's left to debate?
And....it is fulfilling his goal....
Making friends around the world by and between every known Martial art I have ever seen. Aikido Shihan, on the mat practicing with Daito ryu, Koryu, Bjjers and Wing chun and Taiji people over and over. Gaining in power, learning to understand what we all were supposed to have shared, while making friends and having a ball.
I think it is very cool.

Golly, Tom. Paragraphs and paragraphs of writing on judgement which is very fine, but totally beside the point. Then this:

Quote:

Tom Verhoeven wrote:

You cannot test ideas or skills via the internet. At best, if there is film available (youtube, dvd) you can get an impression of what someone is doing and you can try to compare it to what you are doing. I see on Aiki web a lot of conclusions that are based on bias, hidden agenda's, fixed opinions and a lack of reading with care what someone is trying to express. And worse then that; people draw conclusions about the other person's skills and experience without ever having met that person. So I can not agree with you that Aiki web is working pretty well.

Isn't that just what I was saying, that in the end you have to get together to work out what you mean? At which point, you find out what works and what doesn't. Maybe you'll say, "Yeah, what you're doing works better but mine is prettier so I'll stick with it." And I'll say, "God bless, and go in peace," because we're not in the same game at all.

But within shared goals, we certainly can and must judge. Choreographers may need to make the most of their materials, but the artists I know are their own harshest critic.

Where AikiWeb fails, I think, is when people won't meet and won't shut up. You've every right to voice your opinion--but if you won't back it it up, there's no reason why others have to respect it.

Quote:

Tom Verhoeven wrote:

I am not a christian. But I do not think that what you say here about Jezus represents the christian faith sincerely.

Had you said I wasn't representing Christianity correctly, I'd have no issue with you, and we could have a nice debate about religion (or not). But you said I wasn't representing it sincerely, which I resent. (Augh! You're judging me! Actually, I'm assuming you're not a native English speaker so you may not have intended anything by it. But I'll make my point anyway.)

Not only does my post accurately represent one aspect of my attitude towards Christianity, I'll generalize: Every spiritual path I know includes a significant element of whacking the students to make them see the truth. Whether it's Zen masters shouting, "You sly fox spirit!" at a student and chasing them out of the room, or Jesus calling perfectly good and sincere Jews hypocrites and vipers, there's always an element of sincere teaching which is not gentle. The good students, the people who are learning, take the rebuke, think about it, and allow it to change them. The poor students get resentful and close their ears. The choice is yours.

We could also go back to doing various I/P things and thinking you got it and yet not having a clue about the spiritual.

Two different things which combine. Specialists in I/P do not necessarily have the in depth knowledge or ability of spiritual aspects.

If spiritual equals ineffective then it merely shows me the person with such belief has no reality on the real spiritual.

The real spiritual does not put down I/P either but knows the difference. In fact contrary to some's belief it can be that I/p can be found to be not very effective by some who know the spiritual aspects well.

The specific claim has been made that O-Sensei quoted classic concepts from Chinese martial arts extensively.

This claim is either true or false, isn't it? Is there any room here for how "I feel" about the matter?

If the claim is true, surely it has implications about the art we practice. Either it's based on principles which go all the way back to the Chinese or it's not. Is there any room for "what I want" in the question?

If Aikido is based on these core principles, hadn't we better understand them if we want to understand the Founder's art? Is there any "my way" here? Either you're trying to learn what the Founder had to teach or you're not--and if you're not, bless you and go in peace, but you're not really in this conversation.

Okay, so we have this specific claim, supported by the specific translations and commentary done by Chris Li, by quotes and sayings recorded by Stan Pranin, explained and discussed by Ellis Amdur, laid out in exhaustive detail by Prof. Goldsbury, with links back to various classic Chinese manuals.

Have you reviewed this material? Have you formed an informed opinion on it? Can you disprove the argument that Chinese principles drove O-Sensei's Aikido? I'm betting that the people who have really looked at it in depth are the people who have bought in... but I'm more than happy to be proven wrong. Show where the argument falls down. Do your homework. Because the people making the argument have.

And if you don't want to... if you want to say, "Yeah, whatever, but that doesn't have anything to do with MY Aikido," good enough, that's your right--but don't then go on to tell me you understand O-Sensei better than I do, or that you can do the specific demonstrations of skill he did, or that your art is devastatingly effective. Because then I'll say, "Show me" and we'll be right back where we started.

JUDGEMENT.
Interesting that judgement has come up here on this thread. I'm glad it has for it is often used within spiritual circles and religious ie: 'Judge not less you be judged' etc.

The understanding missing as I see it is to do once again with what is meant by such sayings. It doesn't actually mean you must not judge.

Judge-mental would be a better word to use in that being judge-mental is the concept being put foreward by such people. What does that mean? It means being negative, judging negatively, that's all. That's the simplicity that negative people find hard to grasp.

So of course one must judge and does so in every aspect of their daily lives. You judge how far the handle of the door is away in order to grasp it and open the door.

This also brings me back to the spiritual in Aikido. Ueshiba tried to emphasize this point with Takemuso. Emphasizing the virtues. So of course many didn't understand him for they see no connection between those virtues and Ai or Ki or ability in action. Yet they are fundamental. They are part of the spiritual.

They are not to do with being polite or rituals.

Without judging how can you put anything into perspective?

The importance of virtues in action and that includes love and compassion etc is what makes Aikido and gives it that potentially all embracing aspect. On the spiritual it's paramount. Without it there is no Aikido from the spiritual perspective.

The specific claim has been made that O-Sensei quoted classic concepts from Chinese martial arts extensively.

This claim is either true or false, isn't it? Is there any room here for how "I feel" about the matter?

If the claim is true, surely it has implications about the art we practice. Either it's based on principles which go all the way back to the Chinese or it's not. Is there any room for "what I want" in the question?

If Aikido is based on these core principles, hadn't we better understand them if we want to understand the Founder's art? Is there any "my way" here? Either you're trying to learn what the Founder had to teach or you're not--and if you're not, bless you and go in peace, but you're not really in this conversation.

Okay, so we have this specific claim, supported by the specific translations and commentary done by Chris Li, by quotes and sayings recorded by Stan Pranin, explained and discussed by Ellis Amdur, laid out in exhaustive detail by Prof. Goldsbury, with links back to various classic Chinese manuals.

Have you reviewed this material? Have you formed an informed opinion on it? Can you disprove the argument that Chinese principles drove O-Sensei's Aikido? I'm betting that the people who have really looked at it in depth are the people who have bought in... but I'm more than happy to be proven wrong. Show where the argument falls down. Do your homework. Because the people making the argument have.

And if you don't want to... if you want to say, "Yeah, whatever, but that doesn't have anything to do with MY Aikido," good enough, that's your right--but don't then go on to tell me you understand O-Sensei better than I do, or that you can do the specific demonstrations of skill he did, or that your art is devastatingly effective. Because then I'll say, "Show me" and we'll be right back where we started.

Hugh.
I have read some. I have seen the opinions formed by those who find these little gems. I am not impressed by 1) The idea that it is all embracing extensive research for virtually all spiritual things he said are either discounted or seen as something else personal to him or more importantly thoroughly misunderstood. 2) Of course all martial arts from the east can be traced back to various sources from various countries, at least parts of them can. That doesn't equal therefor that is what is being done in said new time. It means that was one influence along with many others.

The claim that he quoted classic concepts from chinese martial arts all the time is obviously false.

He may have quoted some. I quote some too. Twisting it in that way strikes me as trying to fit some agenda.

I have many quotes of Ueshibas nothing to do with classic chinese martial arts and when it comes to repeatedly then the only thing he repeatedly referred to was shinto. The next most repeated was spiritual.

I could dig up poems or whatever from past masters or writers which I find congruent to what I am teaching and even put them on a dojo wall. That's normal isn't it? How people can say that means x,y, z, baffles me.

I'm afraid for me spiritual concepts and truths are the basis of all harmonious martial arts so without understanding them you cannot understand the person concerned. All spiritual truths fit with the principles he talked about repeatedly for they are all non-resistive and real. They all manifest in the various forms shapes and motions. To understand fully one must look hollistically. Truth is not chinese.

If your only aim is to push your own opinion and you do not have an openness to listen to other people and exchange ideas in a valid way then there is no dialogue.
Contributors of this forum become then mere solopsists and the Aiki web forum nothing but an advertising agency.

Tom

If that were the case, maybe, but simply disagreeing with you or anyone else doesn't make someone a solopsist.

"Openness to listen to other people and exchange ideas" does not contain a requirement to accept those ideas. If it did then I would be able to accuse you of being a solipsist for not accepting my ideas.

There are other well known models for how real IP can cross over and inform and feel like spiritual concepts and how it feels in the body and the way it is trained was indeed tied to religious practices.
However, to say it is religious simply shows ignorance of the subject.
Chanting is a good example. Some may deeply believe that chanting certain mudras gave them power, when in reality it was using certain vowel sounds to merely change pressure. Next? What to do with that pressure.
Then you can add certain feelings that come when projecting-particularly with long weapons, and how it can form a heady rush.
We can then add Moving energy work in the body, which is a whole other ball game.

But we then go back to "talking about it" And thinking you "got it" in relation to IP, when in reality there is so much more. There are lots of Japanese and Western Shihan running around with pieces of the puzzle who would be devestated by someone more fully developed by doing it, rather than talking about it.

The truly wonderful aspect about this work is that you cannot B.S. your way out of it (well except on the internet). In person, you either got it or you don't, and you will be found out in all but an instant. Hence, why most will avoid those who either do have it...or know what it is supposed to feel like in someone who does.
Dan

I appreciate your position Dan. I do have a question that may or may not be related to your use of the words internal power. Are mantras solely for sound and relaxation? Can intent and tantric yoga bind and release energies bigger than your understanding of IS/IP (TM) as you have publically expressed it so far?

I am not saying just anyone on this web practices such things, but there may be some that do. I have friends that do and I, too, am a beginner at it. And I will call them shamans/windwalkers. They are an interesting group of folks.

One of the basic martial weapons systems in ancient India were those weapons that were initiated by incantations. In an earlier thread, I quipped with someone regarding "well treated wood" and using light coming from its tip. I used the double entendre of a specific tantric practice used by Little Monk Nupchen Sangye Yeshe whose practice included his personal wood as well as his wooden phurba (light coming out fo them both)..

In the text "The Great Beard of Nup" he writes that when he was 61, the bon armies had surrounded him (904 AD). He pulls out his phurba and "spun a disruptive whirlwind, destroying 37towns around Drak.

See: Taming of the Deamons by Jacob Dalton (Yale University Press, 2011), p. 50. It appears that during this era of fragmentation in Tibet, phurba wars were common according to modern scholarship.

Again,
"So, pulling a teak ritual dagger from the hem of his robes, Nupchen pronounced the life mantras of those vow-bound ones, stabbing and rolling the dagger, he recited, ri pha gi maraya phat (Mountain, over there, kill them!). Thereby, fire erupted from the mountain, incinerating and destroying all the armies." (p.51)

Does your sense of the IS/IP art explore these possbilities?

And to tie this thread with the earlier one, I conclude with this piece of info from Dalton, "To create the merit for purifying that sin, he (Nupchen) composed his "Lamp for the Eye in Contemplation" synthesizing union and liberation through violence.....

Puha
(incidently, is a term I am using in the context of Comanche "internal power". They were not very supersticious people, but they sure had a word for power that could be enhanced with internal practice. Quannah Parker had it and never lost a battle against the U.S. Army.)

But you missed the point of opinion on Spiritual and IP...having to produce results.
I could say "What is the value of thousands of people all agreeing on a thing.....then meeting someone who blows that up and they have to start over?"
I guess we can all agree.....they all agree...they were wrong.

Many organizations, frequently circle the wagons and shoot arrows...just before they give up, but in this case there are no enemies.
Dan

I have not missed a point. I have expressed a 2500 year old principle on how to engage into a dialogue with valid points and valid counter-arguments.

Opinions and results are irrelevant here - they are your own responsibility. Using these principles of engagement you will either be able to convince the other of your view on things or it will be refuted. It is then up to you to come up with a better argument.

Being right or thinking that you are right is not enough. You have to come up with truthful and valid reasoning. Using untruthful points of argument or invalid counter-arguments or a sophism immediately disqualify your statement(s).

I appreciate your position Dan. I do have a question that may or may not be related to your use of the words internal power. Are mantras solely for sound and relaxation? Can intent and tantric yoga bind and release energies bigger than your understanding of IS/IP (TM) as you have publically expressed it so far?

I am not saying just anyone on this web practices such things, but there may be some that do. I have friends that do and I, too, am a beginner at it. And I will call them shamans/windwalkers. They are an interesting group of folks.

One of the basic martial weapons systems in ancient India were those weapons that were initiated by incantations. In an earlier thread, I quipped with someone regarding "well treated wood" and using light coming from its tip. I used the double entendre of a specific tantric practice used by Little Monk Nupchen Sangye Yeshe whose practice included his personal wood as well as his wooden phurba (light coming out fo them both)..

In the text "The Great Beard of Nup" he writes that when he was 61, the bon armies had surrounded him (904 AD). He pulls out his phurba and "spun a disruptive whirlwind, destroying 37towns around Drak.

See: Taming of the Deamons by Jacob Dalton (Yale University Press, 2011), p. 50. It appears that during this era of fragmentation in Tibet, phurba wars were common according to modern scholarship.

Again,
"So, pulling a teak ritual dagger from the hem of his robes, Nupchen pronounced the life mantras of those vow-bound ones, stabbing and rolling the dagger, he recited, ri pha gi maraya phat (Mountain, over there, kill them!). Thereby, fire erupted from the mountain, incinerating and destroying all the armies." (p.51)

Does your sense of the IS/IP art explore these possbilities?

And to tie this thread with the earlier one, I conclude with this piece of info from Dalton, "To create the merit for purifying that sin, he (Nupchen) composed his "Lamp for the Eye in Contemplation" synthesizing union and liberation through violence.....

Puha
(incidently, is a term I am using in the context of Comanche "internal power". They were not very supersticious people, but they sure had a word for power that could be enhanced with internal practice. Quannah Parker had it and never lost a battle against the U.S. Army.)

Regards,

Chris

I have no response. I stopped doing mushrooms and peyote when I was a young musician.
My IP is not my "version." It is established and old. Westerners like to push "their version" so they can validate their half-assed corruption of just about anything they touch and call it equal.

Today I focus on things that are beyond doubt and contestation. It is dividing, But truth often is.
Dan

I have not missed a point. I have expressed a 2500 year old principle on how to engage into a dialogue with valid points and valid counter-arguments.

Opinions and results are irrelevant here - they are your own responsibility. Using these principles of engagement you will either be able to convince the other of your view on things or it will be refuted. It is then up to you to come up with a better argument.

Being right or thinking that you are right is not enough. You have to come up with truthful and valid reasoning. Using untruthful points of argument or invalid counter-arguments or a sophism immediately disqualify your statement(s).

Tom

I am not arguing nor trying to convince anyone of anything.
I state fact and irrefutable results of training correctly that simply does not fail. And this work is well established.
It is beyond your ability to debate it.
It is best done in person.
It continues to win over at a rate of damn close to 100% of those who feel it, because;
a. it works
b. it can be taught
c. it yields incremental palpable results
and
d. I am a sweetheart!!!

If that were the case, maybe, but simply disagreeing with you or anyone else doesn't make someone a solopsist.

"Openness to listen to other people and exchange ideas" does not contain a requirement to accept those ideas. If it did then I would be able to accuse you of being a solipsist for not accepting my ideas.

Best,

Chris

I never said that simply disagreeing with me makes you a solopsist! That is what you are saying!
Again, you are coming up with an invalid counterargument.

Openness to listen to other people and exchange ideas forms the essence of dialogue. I never said that there was a requirement to accept ideas. That is what you are saying!
Again, that is an invalid counterargument.

A dialogue can give you new facts, new ideas, new insights. That might very well happen with persons who express a view that is not your own. If you are willing to listen that is.

Let there be no misunderstanding here. This is not about a difference of opinion between you and me on Aikido related matters. I am only expressing simple and basic principles of dialogue. You are in fact argueing against those principles. You may do that, but it leaves no place for dialogue. And that is what a forum is all about, is it not?
Tom

I never said that simply disagreeing with me makes you a solopsist! That is what you are saying!
Again, you are coming up with an invalid counterargument.

Openness to listen to other people and exchange ideas forms the essence of dialogue. I never said that there was a requirement to accept ideas. That is what you are saying!
Again, that is an invalid counterargument.

A dialogue can give you new facts, new ideas, new insights. That might very well happen with persons who express a view that is not your own. If you are willing to listen that is.

Let there be no misunderstanding here. This is not about a difference of opinion between you and me on Aikido related matters. I am only expressing simple and basic principles of dialogue. You are in fact argueing against those principles. You may do that, but it leaves no place for dialogue. And that is what a forum is all about, is it not?
Tom

I'm not arguing against those principles at all. I simply stated that I disagreed with a statement you made. And disagreeing is certainly a valid principle of dialogue, isn't it?

I am not arguing nor trying to convince anyone of anything.
I state fact and irrefutable results of training correctly that simply does not fail. And this work is well established.
It is beyond your ability to debate it.
It is best done in person.
It continues to win over at a rate of damn close to 100% of those who feel it, because;
a. it works
b. it can be taught
c. it yields incremental palpable results
and
d. I am a sweetheart!!!

Dan,

I could not agree with you more. It applies just as much to my own work and teachings, but you are probably better looking then me.

But it does not change the fact that Chris' counterargument is and stays invalid!

I never said that simply disagreeing with me makes you a solopsist! That is what you are saying!
Again, you are coming up with an invalid counterargument.

Openness to listen to other people and exchange ideas forms the essence of dialogue. I never said that there was a requirement to accept ideas. That is what you are saying!
Again, that is an invalid counterargument.

A dialogue can give you new facts, new ideas, new insights. That might very well happen with persons who express a view that is not your own. If you are willing to listen that is.

Let there be no misunderstanding here. This is not about a difference of opinion between you and me on Aikido related matters. I am only expressing simple and basic principles of dialogue. You are in fact argueing against those principles. You may do that, but it leaves no place for dialogue. And that is what a forum is all about, is it not?
Tom

That makes sense Tom, truly. But... provided we leave out conclusions.
Dialoguing about those well known training models touches on triggers for many who have been asked for decades to believe and keep training and they will "get it," and then conversely being told they weren't thinking...all while having a verbal and physical dialogue with teachers who just could not, or would not.....teach.
Hence, some of the impatiance to just engage in even more dialogue with those who;

Don't have it

Don't really know how to get it

Doubt those who actually do...

And want to dialogue with them about their own ideas that fail time and time again.

Or tell them to go shout on a street corner for all they care.

For many here that sort of dialogue is BTDT. There is a growing group of Aikido teachers who are doing many of training models Ueshiba outlined. And...surprise surprise......it works in the real world. And up against that...their method?
Does not.
Testing and conclusions is very dividing...hence people wanting to just dialogue...on the net.
Dan