They're bunching West Coast sites, just like a few years ago. 2019 is at Pebble, marking the 100th anniversary of the course. Although it hasn't been announced, I assume they'll go back to Olympic Club before 2025.

erin hills with its wonderfully quirky architecture that is minimalist in following the land will not be well received by the pros when the us open comes to western wisconsin this summer, it's not bland with predictable shot values like torrey pines

I think to be "fair" to torrey Pines South (and it is a really interesting subject which I would LOVE to see your fellow reviewers/writters take up) is how the minimalist movement (which I think it great for the game) squares with municipal course golf. I think they could have gone for a much more dramatic redesign of the South (they have a piece of property which rivals nearly anything else in America) but the local duffers that play the south on a weekly basis would have come UNHINGED. Even now there is a group that isn't happy with the South redo (or the north courses).

I think to be "fair" to torrey Pines South (and it is a really interesting subject which I would LOVE to see your fellow reviewers/writters take up) is how the minimalist movement (which I think it great for the game) squares with municipal course golf. I think they could have gone for a much more dramatic redesign of the South (they have a piece of property which rivals nearly anything else in America) but the local duffers that play the south on a weekly basis would have come UNHINGED. Even now there is a group that isn't happy with the South redo (or the north courses).

I think it's fairly difficult to design a public course that is both challenging for the pros and playable for the unwashed masses. They accomplished it at Harding Park in SF I think, but not too many other places. I know the Open even coming to Torrey in the first was controversial in San Diego for a number of years. One of the problems is that most public courses (Harding is again an exception, because it goes back to early in the 20th Century) don't have the acreage to develop features. My home course (Palo Alto Muni) is in the middle of a complete redesign. I'll be interested to see how it comes out.

I think it's fairly difficult to design a public course that is both challenging for the pros and playable for the unwashed masses. They accomplished it at Harding Park in SF I think, but not too many other places. I know the Open even coming to Torrey in the first was controversial in San Diego for a number of years. One of the problems is that most public courses (Harding is again an exception, because it goes back to early in the 20th Century) don't have the acreage to develop features. My home course (Palo Alto Muni) is in the middle of a complete redesign. I'll be interested to see how it comes out.

Playability and operational capacity. Torrey does something like 50,000+ rounds. If you have 5.5 hour rounds, huge waste areas to go searching for rocks, bunkers that take forever to rake and maintain it is hard to move that many people through. Add in the fact that torrey has pricing constraints - - it would be politically difficult to charge city residents $90 a round and not end up as a city council member with your head on a pike. So comparing Torrey to Eden Hills where it is $275 to $300 to tee it up is a bit unfair. The interesting question is whether/who does it. Bethpage seems to have done so but I don't know what its current capacity is and how given the complex they manage the Black so it "works".

Playability and operational capacity. Torrey does something like 50,000+ rounds. If you have 5.5 hour rounds, huge waste areas to go searching for rocks, bunkers that take forever to rake and maintain it is hard to move that many people through. Add in the fact that torrey has pricing constraints - - it would be politically difficult to charge city residents $90 a round and not end up as a city council member with your head on a pike. So comparing Torrey to Eden Hills where it is $275 to $300 to tee it up is a bit unfair. The interesting question is whether/who does it. Bethpage seems to have done so but I don't know what its current capacity is and how given the complex they manage the Black so it "works".

First, they have five courses-Red, Blue, Green & Yellow are the others-so it's not like tourist play on the Black closes off golf options for the locals. Also, the Black got a lot of out-of-town play even before the USGA renovation, and I don't believe they've changed the tee time policies that much, and the sleep-in-your-car requirement I suspect keeps the out-of-town play down. Also, I believe the USGA put up most of the money for the renovation, so it didn't cost NY State that much. By contrast, SF had to pay for a big chunk of the Harding renovation, and basically had to raise green fees on non-SF residents to try and cover the cost. It's now $100 for a Bay Area resident outside SF to play there, and not many do so. The City is not making money on the course. My impression is that San Diego, sort of like San Francisco, doesn't have a lot of public course availability relative to the population, so they had to keep the course available for locals, even with the Open work. 50,000 rounds a year is a lot.

First, they have five courses-Red, Blue, Green & Yellow are the others-so it's not like tourist play on the Black closes off golf options for the locals. Also, the Black got a lot of out-of-town play even before the USGA renovation, and I don't believe they've changed the tee time policies that much, and the sleep-in-your-car requirement I suspect keeps the out-of-town play down. Also, I believe the USGA put up most of the money for the renovation, so it didn't cost NY State that much. By contrast, SF had to pay for a big chunk of the Harding renovation, and basically had to raise green fees on non-SF residents to try and cover the cost. It's now $100 for a Bay Area resident outside SF to play there, and not many do so. The City is not making money on the course. My impression is that San Diego, sort of like San Francisco, doesn't have a lot of public course availability relative to the population, so they had to keep the course available for locals, even with the Open work. 50,000 rounds a year is a lot.

San Diego is interesting. It has a LOT of daily fee courses at a variety of price points. Probably more than the market can withstand and there is some significant financial pressure on both daily fee and "low end" privates. What it DOESN"T have is a richness of public municipals like Bay Area (and especailly East Bay Area). Essentially a course (or 2) outside of City of San Diego and then three 18 hole loops (Torrey x2 and Balboa) operated by the city. So one of the pressures on Torrey comes from organized special interests (i.e. the Torrey pines mens club) which is fascinating if you enjoy public choice theory about how groups organize as rent seekers and who have pushed for very preferential treatment to get something subsidized by others. For example, Mens and Womens club have something like 20 Saturday AM tournaments a year (last time I looked) that means members don't have to sleep in cars, get "city resident green fee" and get the best of the best tee times. Nice work if you can go down and scream at City Council. ;-)

Shocky - What are you letting happen to your board here, brother? A couple of weeks ago, you rightfully ran off old white Bear alums for talking about the old, white days of Berkeley because the target audience for The Monster doesn't want to hear it. Understandable. But now you let your board get overwhelmed with extensive discussion of the oldest white guy hobby of all? Or is the Compton Magic discussing the layout of Torrey Pines when they hang out? Or do they talk about flat tummy yoga gals. I'm thinking the latter. You went to Haas so you well know the peril of drifting too far from the target market.

souse, i dunno about you but she got the club a little bit too vertical at the the top, that's gonna cause her to cut the ball but her form & shoulder rotation is pretty good & most importantly she got a tight female yoga azz

i used to caddie at san francisco golf club during my high school & cal days back in the day, i learned invaluable life skills in terms of how to interact with wealthy high financial net worth individuals as a caddie...yeah a haas undergraduate biz ad degree opens a lot of doors in life but knowing how to dispense ideas/motivate dumb azzs to your solutions which is a caddie skill is priceless

knowing how to talk up them curvy brunette yoga females with a flat stomach is also kinda an important life skill too

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good coaching, a fanbase that supports the team but the key differentiator is a booster (i overheard him speaking with ivan rabb sr in front of the cal will call in tucson during young ivee's freshman year) that buys players for the program...he provides cash to the players, family members & steering aau coaches during their time in tucson, then he recoups his dollars by brokering his relationships to sports agents that cash him out with their percentage cuts of nba contracts

don't believe me?...insiders have been aware of these cash payments for years, the donut boy of tucson just looks the other way

so deandre ayton, the #1 ranked player in the 2017 class grows up with minimal academic achievement in a large poverty stricken family in the bahamas...the cash infusion arrives & the family moves internationally to phoenix despite otherwise no financial resources to do so, he just promises to sign with arizona...deandre enrolls at hillcrest prep which has online classes that allows other students to take the exams for the players, deandre's gpa has gone from a non ncca eligible status to 3.5, truly amazing

and trust me the bagley family got expectations too, arizona will be right there as a player in his recruitment

nobody in the bay area wants to hear it but there was money involved in brandon ashley heading to tucson

there are boosters that will relocate jordan brown & his family to tucson, eugene & westwood...it's just an ugly side of the recruiting world but i don't think that will be an attractive option to the very ethical brown family

it's kinda funny (but also sad) to read the naive comments by bears fans why the wildcats are so successful in recruiting, they do not understand the reality of the challenges that coaching wyking & his ethical staff (including me as the director of recruiting) are facing...yet we will battle on & if recruiting success comes our way like the signings of ivan rabb & jaylen brown you can be assured it's because we did things the right way

Bryan is not a 'plan B'He's a top player with a ton of protential.We should recruit both as priorities

HoopDreams, I didn't say Penn-Johnson wasn't a good prospect with the BIG P (potential)....but if you have seen Jordan Brown as many times as I have, you would agree that Jordan Brown is Plan A and there is a Plan B and that plan includes Penn-Johnson.....landing both would be preferable but you should always have a plan B which was something I didn't always see in Martin's recruiting strategy....

my point is both Jordan Brown and Penn-Johnson are Plan A recruits.Call them Plan A+ and Plan A if that helps

bearmanpg;842844855 said:

HoopDreams, I didn't say Penn-Johnson wasn't a good prospect with the BIG P (potential)....but if you have seen Jordan Brown as many times as I have, you would agree that Jordan Brown is Plan A and there is a Plan B and that plan includes Penn-Johnson.....landing both would be preferable but you should always have a plan B which was something I didn't always see in Martin's recruiting strategy....

good coaching, a fanbase that supports the team but the key differentiator is a booster (i overheard him speaking with ivan rabb sr in front of the cal will call in tucson during young ivee's freshman year) that buys players for the program...he provides cash to the players, family members & steering aau coaches during their time in tucson, then he recoups his dollars by brokering his relationships to sports agents that cash him out with their percentage cuts of nba contracts

don't believe me?...insiders have been aware of these cash payments for years, the donut boy of tucson just looks the other way

so deandre ayton, the #1 ranked player in the 2017 class grows up with minimal academic achievement in a large poverty stricken family in the bahamas...the cash infusion arrives & the family moves internationally to phoenix despite otherwise no financial resources to do so, he just promises to sign with arizona...deandre enrolls at hillcrest prep which has online classes that allows other students to take the exams for the players, deandre's gpa has gone from a non ncca eligible status to 3.5, truly amazing

and trust me the bagley family got expectations too, arizona will be right there as a player in his recruitment

nobody in the bay area wants to hear it but there was money involved in brandon ashley heading to tucson

there are boosters that will relocate jordan brown & his family to tucson, eugene & westwood...it's just an ugly side of the recruiting world but i don't think that will be an attractive option to the very ethical brown family

it's kinda funny (but also sad) to read the naive comments by bears fans why the wildcats are so successful in recruiting, they do not understand the reality of the challenges that coaching wyking & his ethical staff (including me as the director of recruiting) are facing...yet we will battle on & if recruiting success comes our way like the signings of ivan rabb & jaylen brown you can be assured it's because we did things the right way

cheating is for losers#:nono:

Much of this reads like the Sam Gilbert Pyramid of Success. And the donut boy can coach within the limits of a high ceiling.

ucla's storied basketball tradition of winning national championships was built on the foundation of sam gilbert buying players for john wooden

no ******* magic at all (just cheating)#:nono:

Quote from Bill Walton's book:

"UCLA players were so well taken care of far beyond the ground rules of the NCAA that even players from poor backgrounds never left UCLA prematurely (for pro basketball) during John Wooden's championship years."

"If the UCLA teams of the late 1960s and early 1970s were subjected to the kind of scrutiny (other schools) have been, UCLA would probably have to forfeit about eight national championships and be on probation for the next 100 years."

I'm not doubting you in the least, but this only brings up the question: if you know, why doesn't the NCAA know? (answer: they do but don't give a **** because UofA brings in lots of $$ come tournament time).

I'm not doubting you in the least, but this only brings up the question: if you know, why doesn't the NCAA know? (answer: they do but don't give a **** because UofA brings in lots of $$ come tournament time).

Someone has to give the NCAA some red meat on the situation. Coaches know what is going on but the "unwritten rules " apply here. So an AAU coach, player or players family needs to let the NCAA know. Knowing and proving are different things. Most coaches understand the game and look the other way. Many programs have a "bagman" or "bagmen" that provide things to players and players families. Most of it is small potatoes stuff, but for very elite players the stakes get raised. There is a reason some programs stay on top every year. Not just money either. Jobs are provided for parents, automobiles, housing and other things get "arranged".

AAU coaches love being able to sell prospective recruits on the success they have getting players into "top programs". Lots of dirty laundry in the hoops recruiting world. Football with the 7v7 tourneys, combines etc are quickly getting dirtier as well. But 1 or 2 players make such a difference in basketball many programs are willing to do "what it takes" to acquire the better players. And beware if you are an AAU coach and go public. The NCAA basketball tournament is the single biggest cash cow the NCAA has. They are not incentivized to look for violations. They will respond if they get legitimate info. Look at the NCAA inquiry into the UNC academic fraud mess. Still under investigation. And oh by the way UNC just won the National Championship.

Someone has to give the NCAA some red meat on the situation. Coaches know what is going on but the "unwritten rules " apply here. So an AAU coach, player or players family needs to let the NCAA know. Knowing and proving are different things. Most coaches understand the game and look the other way. Many programs have a "bagman" or "bagmen" that provide things to players and players families. Most of it is small potatoes stuff, but for very elite players the stakes get raised. There is a reason some programs stay on top every year. Not just money either. Jobs are provided for parents, automobiles, housing and other things get "arranged".

AAU coaches love being able to sell prospective recruits on the success they have getting players into "top programs". Lots of dirty laundry in the hoops recruiting world. Football with the 7v7 tourneys, combines etc are quickly getting dirtier as well. But 1 or 2 players make such a difference in basketball many programs are willing to do "what it takes" to acquire the better players. And beware if you are an AAU coach and go public. The NCAA basketball tournament is the single biggest cash cow the NCAA has. They are not incentivized to look for violations. They will respond if they get legitimate info. Look at the NCAA inquiry into the UNC academic fraud mess. Still under investigation. And oh by the way UNC just won the National Championship.

And part of that goes to the fact the NCAA doesn't have supeana powers or any other way to compell an "unwilling witness" to testify. Those programs that get dinged are like Ours - where you have a disgrunteled parent open up the curtain.

good coaching, a fanbase that supports the team but the key differentiator is a booster (i overheard him speaking with ivan rabb sr in front of the cal will call in tucson during young ivee's freshman year) that buys players for the program...he provides cash to the players, family members & steering aau coaches during their time in tucson, then he recoups his dollars by brokering his relationships to sports agents that cash him out with their percentage cuts of nba contracts

don't believe me?...insiders have been aware of these cash payments for years, the donut boy of tucson just looks the other way

so deandre ayton, the #1 ranked player in the 2017 class grows up with minimal academic achievement in a large poverty stricken family in the bahamas...the cash infusion arrives & the family moves internationally to phoenix despite otherwise no financial resources to do so, he just promises to sign with arizona...deandre enrolls at hillcrest prep which has online classes that allows other students to take the exams for the players, deandre's gpa has gone from a non ncca eligible status to 3.5, truly amazing

and trust me the bagley family got expectations too, arizona will be right there as a player in his recruitment

nobody in the bay area wants to hear it but there was money involved in brandon ashley heading to tucson

there are boosters that will relocate jordan brown & his family to tucson, eugene & westwood...it's just an ugly side of the recruiting world but i don't think that will be an attractive option to the very ethical brown family

it's kinda funny (but also sad) to read the naive comments by bears fans why the wildcats are so successful in recruiting, they do not understand the reality of the challenges that coaching wyking & his ethical staff (including me as the director of recruiting) are facing...yet we will battle on & if recruiting success comes our way like the signings of ivan rabb & jaylen brown you can be assured it's because we did things the right way

cheating is for losers#:nono:

Latest in the Hillcrest Prep/U of A connection is the transfer of Kyree Walker, top freshman nationally last season, from Moreau Hayward. His dad was hired by Hillcrest as an assistant. When Kyree signs with U of A, his father won't be far behind. Lower home prices in the desert versus the Bay Area also helped.

Latest in the Hillcrest Prep/U of A connection is the transfer of Kyree Walker, top freshman nationally last season, from Moreau Hayward. His dad was hired by Hillcrest as an assistant. When Kyree signs with U of A, his father won't be far behind. Lower home prices in the desert versus the Bay Area also helped.

kyree walker is a cash lock for arizona

when zeph lee like oj simpson left san francisco to play football for usc back in the day he got paid, ira is gonna be enriched too for signing with arizona...nothing for nothing

I'm not doubting you in the least, but this only brings up the question: if you know, why doesn't the NCAA know? (answer: they do but don't give a **** because UofA brings in lots of $$ come tournament time).

although the ncca's failure to act on the north carolina fully documented academic fraud case is mind boggling, i am not a conspiracy theorist that the ncca is evil, it's just an ineffectual bureaucratic organization

a ncca investigation of deandre ayton should focus how did the entire family buy international plane tickets & relocate from the bahamas to phoenix arizona (given their poverty level i doubt they owned a credit card then)?...how is the family financially supporting themselves in phoenix, what are their sources of income?

there should also be an inquiry into hillside prep academy which is not a college preparatory school in any sense of the word, it's a basketball trade school...in november of 2015 hillside prep's program director matt allen switch the school's academic (using the term loosely) from the beleaguered starshine academy to the arizona connections academy to avoid having course work denied by the ncca...arizona connections academy is an online school based out of gilbert, it's well known within the arizona high school basketball community that there's academic fraud with other students & adults taking the online tests for the academically challenged guys like ayton

a ncca investigation of deandre ayton should focus how did the entire family buy international plane tickets & relocate from the bahamas to phoenix arizona (given their poverty level i doubt they owned a credit card then)?...how is the family financially supporting themselves in phoenix, what are their sources of income?

But. It. Won't. Happen.

Shocky1;842844995 said:

there should also be an inquiry into hillside prep academy which is not a college preparatory school in any sense of the word, it's a basketball trade school...

major arizona donor told me that 2018 point guard brandon williams is a silent commit to the donut boy of tuscon

williams with the public commitment, webster & the deal maker recruited brandon for a while but let's be real here, targeting 2.8 gpa dumb azzs that got no academic ambition is a clown's errand, right ronald?

penn johnson is blowing up this summer with breakout performances & getting offers from p5 programs & is a key cal priority...he's got disruptive length, soft hands & is in the best shape of his life after dropping 40 lbs, dude is not afraid to work & don't backdown to nobody...he never smiles unless he's talking up a curvy brunette yoga female with a flat stomach

right now bryan got a bunch of **** academic schools like lsu & utah, summertime unofficials to racist/humid baton rouge & all white salt lake city should help clear up a lot of things along with recognition of the playing styles as both the tigers & utes play slow grind it out ball unlike the bears high energy fast break ball

he's gonna made a decision after aau ball ends late this summer, his decision will impact the staff's recruitment of tolu jacobs yaffa

[video=youtube;waJLvG1gyp0][/video]

young simba (with soggy cereal)#:rollinglaugh:

the university of california, berkeley=#1 ranked public (#3 overall) university in the world (including nevada)