Varian will understand the Saurfang is a father and after losing his son understands the true price of war and further conflict. What happens after that I am not sure.

I've never heard of Orcs mourning their lost sons though. I only remember fathers being proud their son died in battle, it's the greatest honour an Orc will ever get. It's so cemented into their society.

Now, Saurfang is an exception though. The Lich King robbed his son of a glorious death. That is why Saurfang feels horrible. But the argument you make of how Saurfang understands the price of war is bullshit, Orcs don't have any problem with their sons and daughters dying on the battlefield, in fact it only makes them proud.

I've never heard of Orcs mourning their lost sons though. I only remember fathers being proud their son died in battle, it's the greatest honour an Orc will ever get. It's so cemented into their society.

Now, Saurfang is an exception though. The Lich King robbed his son of a glorious death. That is why Saurfang feels horrible. But the argument you make of how Saurfang understands the price of war is bullshit, Orcs don't have any problem with their sons and daughters dying on the battlefield, in fact it only makes them proud.

Not all people have the same ideas.

Saurfang explicitly comments on the horrors of war to Garrosh in Borean Tundra, when he says he'll kill Garrosh himself if Garrosh takes the orcs down that dark path again.

What about Etrigg? advisor of Thrall and friend of Tirion meaning he is diplomatic. He would also fit the unexpected choice blizzard talked about.

What about Nazgrel? Right hand of Thrall and completely ignored since TBC. He's been sitting in Thrallmar for far too long.

Anyway, I can't see Saurfang, Nazgrel or Eitrigg seriously wanting to be Warchief over Thrall. They'll probably forgive Thrall's mistake and would rather be commanded by him again.

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Originally Posted by Cooper

Not all people have the same ideas.

I've only ever heard fathers being proud of their sons that have fallen in battle, I've never heard any of them feeling regret though.

Oh, and the horrors of war is in regarding to killing innocent women and children. Orcs don't have any problem with dying in honourable combat. Heck, when you turn in Saurfang Jr's armor Saurfang even admits dying in combat is a great honour for his child. It's not until his son gets turned into a Death Knight that Saurfang truly feels pity for his son.

Eitrigg, Saurfang and Drek'Thar are too old. Thrall had the same thoughts when choosing a new leader before his departure to Nagrand and ruled them three out. Orks value strength in their leaders, an old person will not work there.

Eitrigg, Saurfang and Drek'Thar are too old. Thrall had the same thoughts when choosing a new leader before his departure to Nagrand and ruled them three out. Orks value strength in their leaders, an old person will not work there.

He was concerned that an old orc would be out of touch with the younger generation. Since a majority of the younger generation supported Hitler, I think experience might be necessary in rebuilding their society from the ground up, even if he isn't one of them.

"Did you think we have forgotten? Did you think we have forgiven? Behold now, the terrible vengeance of the Forsaken"

Made me ROFL. I see it happening right now, after that Vol'jin/Saurfang/Baine/Gamon/basic campfire will be sitting on Garrosh throne, begging Thrall to put the heart on his head while getting covered by slugs, and tells him to tell the world that the warchief is dead and that [insert name here] died with him. Not much later Garrosh shoulder pads will be set up for display in pandaria at the lorewalkers hangout to be clicked on for a short flashback.

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Originally Posted by Ebondream

Made me ROFL. I see it happening right now, after that Vol'jin/Saurfang/Baine/Gamon/basic campfire will be sitting on Garrosh throne, begging Thrall to put the heart on his head while getting covered by slugs, and tells him to tell the world that the warchief is dead and that [insert name here] died with him. Not much later Garrosh shoulder pads will be set up for display in pandaria at the lorewalkers hangout to be clicked on for a short flashback.

Did I mention that Grom holds his son in his arms? If not, millions implied this already anyway.

Made me ROFL. I see it happening right now, after that Vol'jin/Saurfang/Baine/Gamon/basic campfire will be sitting on Garrosh throne, begging Thrall to put the heart on his head while getting covered by slugs, and tells him to tell the world that the warchief is dead and that [insert name here] died with him. Not much later Garrosh shoulder pads will be set up for display in pandaria at the lorewalkers hangout to be clicked on for a short flashback.

I wish the "flashback thing" (like Dalaran fountain and Deathwing's chin) would be a Gorehowl in Grommash Hold for Horde and Mannoroth's teeth (his shoulderpads) for Alliance...

In a not so distant future, in WoW's next expansion, in a new 5-man Heroic Dungeon...

''Don't look so smug! I know what you're thinking, but Siege of Orgrimmar was merely a set back. Did you honestly believe I would trust the future to some slimy, dead Old God's heart? Hahahaha... Oh no, no, no, it was merely an instrument, a stepping stone to a much larger plan! It has all led to this...and this time, you will not interfere!''

But where'll Gorehowl be? I don't want it to be another Doomhammer plate, erased from existance! Imo the Doomhammer Plate should be worn by every warchief in his honor. I don't want that for Gorehowl tho, I just want it to be exposed somewhere. :]

But where'll Gorehowl be? I don't want it to be another Doomhammer plate, erased from existance! Imo the Doomhammer Plate should be worn by every warchief in his honor. I don't want that for Gorehowl tho, I just want it to be exposed somewhere. :]

That's right. I still can't believe in garrosh encounter Thrall is in his shaman cloths instead of Doomhammer Armor, but maybe then it would be too obvious who will become warchief .

Under the circumstances, I wouldn't expect the Alliance to be free to do whatever they please, or even wish to. But they would definitely want to maintain a presence in Orgrimmar. There is simply no way they would participate in dethroning Garrosh, then simply hand the keys to Vol'jin, when the Horde has been belligerent to the point of total war not once, not twice, but thrice.

Destroying the Underhold would have all the impact of destroying Hitler's bunker. It does absolutely nothing to promote the Alliance's future security. The only way to do that is to maintain a presence in the city.

The Italians deposed Mussolini and flipped sides on their own, before the war ended. Ergo, it's not a relevant analogy. Heck, the Russians occupied Paris for a while after the Napoleonic Wars.

There is just no realistic way the Alliance simply hands the next warchief the keys and leaves, short of the intervention of something like the Burning Legion invading. Not after two previous Horde instigated wars, the Wrathgate, and Garrosh's war.

You know what also wouldn't promote the Alliance's security? Vindicating Garrosh's views towards the Alliance, which is what occupying the city over the objections of the rebel leadership would likely do. It would also send a message to the entire world that the Alliance does not honor it's strategic alliances, making those almost impossible to make going forward.

The Alliance has to tread a careful line. They are in a position to gain some concessions, and that is a position that shouldn't be squandered, but push too hard and all they'll do is make a new war with the Horde an absolute guarantee even in the short term.

Destroying the Underhold (and perhaps more importantly, the weapons housed within it) might be one way to do this. Another would be press forward against loyalist strongholds elsewhere in the world, regaining much of the territory Garrosh conquered. Since only loyalists were harmed and the Alliance mainly seized territory they had a historical claim to, the new Horde leadership would be more willing to accept the loss.

Roleplaying, hardcore Raiding, running LFR on the occasional weekend, PvPing, rolling alts, achievement hunting, pet battling, or just enacting an endless series of whims, I don't care how you play WoW. Just as long as you have fun doing it.

You know what also wouldn't promote the Alliance's security? Vindicating Garrosh's views towards the Alliance, which is what occupying the city over the objections of the rebel leadership would likely do. It would also send a message to the entire world that the Alliance does not honor it's strategic alliances, making those almost impossible to make going forward.

The Alliance has to tread a careful line. They are in a position to gain some concessions, and that is a position that shouldn't be squandered, but push too hard and all they'll do is make a new war with the Horde an absolute guarantee even in the short term.

Destroying the Underhold (and perhaps more importantly, the weapons housed within it) might be one way to do this. Another would be press forward against loyalist strongholds elsewhere in the world, regaining much of the territory Garrosh conquered. Since only loyalists were harmed and the Alliance mainly seized territory they had a historical claim to, the new Horde leadership would be more willing to accept the loss.

It's not about concessions. It's about keeping this from happening yet again. The same reason Berlin and Vienna were occupied, or Japan, or Paris, or why the former Confederate States underwent reconstruction. If a new war is what it takes to finish this once and for all, so be it. Because if the Alliance doesn't put itself in a position to say, "Maybe stop worshiping stupid things like 'BLOOD AND THUNDER'" or "Hey, is that demon blood? Spill that out right the fuck now" then it will happen again. The Horde has proven itself to be recklessly belligerent both under and outside the influence of the Burning Legion, and just getting Ashenvale back is not enough anymore.

It's not about concessions. It's about keeping this from happening yet again. The same reason Berlin and Vienna were occupied, or Japan, or Paris, or why the former Conferderate States underwent reconstruction. If a new war is what it takes to finish this once and for all, so be it. Because if the Alliance doesn't put itself in a position to say, "Maybe stop worshiping stupid things like 'BLOOD AND THUNDER'" or "Hey, is that demon blood? Spill that out right the fuck now" then it will happen again. The Horde has proven itself to be recklessly belligerent both under and outside the influence of the Burning Legion, and just getting Ashenvale back is not enough anymore.

So lets say the Alliance does continue the war. Since they would be on the offensive, the Alliance would need to completely conquer the Horde to attain victory while the Horde would just need to hold out until the Alliance's casualties mount to the point of either breaking the population's will to fight or (if the Alliance is really determined) where the Alliance runs out of bodies to ship to Kalimdor or the Northern Eastern Kingdoms.

Even if the Alliance does manage to conquer the Horde completely, it would come at such a high cost in manpower that there would be almost stopping anyone from the Burning Legion to the Vul'gol Ogres from walking into Stormwind and taking over. And with how frequently cosmic horrors have been cropping up in recent years, I don't think the Alliance will want to keep the war going to the point of compromising their own defenses even if there isn't anything visible on the horizon.

Roleplaying, hardcore Raiding, running LFR on the occasional weekend, PvPing, rolling alts, achievement hunting, pet battling, or just enacting an endless series of whims, I don't care how you play WoW. Just as long as you have fun doing it.

You know what also wouldn't promote the Alliance's security? Vindicating Garrosh's views towards the Alliance

That they are weak, spineless and can't hold onto lands they don't deserve.

It would also send a message to the entire world that the Alliance does not honor it's strategic alliances, making those almost impossible to make going forward.

Strategic alliance? What strategic alliance?

They are in a position to gain some concessions

They are in a position to utterly destroy the Horde. It'll cost them...but the pay off is they won't face yet another war in another few years.

push too hard and all they'll do is make a new war with the Horde an absolute guarantee even in the short term.

"Shiort term" being a continuing thewar thgey are already fighting because the new Horde leadership proved themselves justs as power hungry as Garrosh....and this instead of an absolute guarantee for a new war against a stronger foe in the medium term.

Destroying the Underhold (and perhaps more importantly, the weapons housed within it) might be one way to do this. Another would be press forward against loyalist strongholds elsewhere in the world, regaining much of the territory Garrosh conquered. Since only loyalists were harmed and the Alliance mainly seized territory they had a historical claim to, the new Horde leadership would be more willing to accept the loss.

Telling the Horde to leave ALL the lands the Alliance has a historical claim to - Azshara, Gilneas, Ashenvale, Stonetalon, Feralas etc is the LEAST the Alliance can expect. After all thats happened, the Horde leadership should be expecting the Alliance to "ask" for more.

Originally Posted by Falrinn

Since they would be on the offensive, the Alliance would need to completely conquer the Horde to attain victory while the Horde would just need to hold out until the Alliance's casualties mount to the point of either breaking the population's will to fight or (if the Alliance is really determined) where the Alliance runs out of bodies to ship to Kalimdor or the Northern Eastern Kingdoms.

All signs show the Alliance is in a position to defeat the Horde once and for all. Your conditions don't seem to apply. The Alliance spent 50,000 mean against the Lich King. And for their reward, the Horde launched an unprovoked attack against them taking advantage of Deathwing and the chaos of the Cataclysm.

They've seen towns and villages and nations overrun. They've seen their friends and family raised into eternal servitude and others sentenced to horrrific deaths with Garrosh and his mana bomb. The Horde has backstabbed and betrayed and attacked the Alliance time after time after time.

You think that after all that, there is going to be a "Breaking the will of the Alliance to fight"...when they are winning?

Even if the Alliance does manage to conquer the Horde completely, it would come at such a high cost in manpower that there would be almost stopping anyone from the Burning Legion

Noone else seems to think so. It'd cost the Alliance, sure. And in return they get security, peace and their lands back.

I don't think the Alliance will want to keep the war going to the point of compromising their own defenses even if there isn't anything visible on the horizon.

You assume that defeating the Horde will end up compromising the Alliances defence.

I don't think the total destruction of the horde is in alliance's interest: some race of the horde are respected by the alliance (tauren, maybe troll) and a great war with heavy casualties would bring useless and barren territories (barrens, stonetalon, azshara). The only true point of interest for the alliance in horde's hands is lordaeron, but that is another story. And the eastern half of ashenvale.

I don't think the total destruction of the horde is in alliance's interest: some race of the horde are respected by the alliance (tauren, maybe troll) and a great war with heavy casualties would bring useless and barren territories (barrens, stonetalon, azshara). The only true point of interest for the alliance in horde's hands is lordaeron, but that is another story. And the eastern half of ashenvale.

There are a lot of complexities in war, and unfortunately because the tauren and trolls have aligned themselves with the orcs, the alliance has no choice but to brand them enemies. There is alot of racism towards anything not Human and the tauren / trolls would be seen as filth/impure by alot of humans and those within the alliance.