Part of me feels like media would improve as a whole if we got rid of human characters and just replaced them with robots. Think about it.

>gundam without retarded human emotions and "feelings">Armored Core V and VD wouldn't have been such disappointments (they focused too much on the story)>Battletech wouldn't be swirling the drain right now

I swear, giving everything a more robotic vibe should be the way to go. When I enjoy a mecha related product, I want to watch mechs fighting eachother, not some gay human emotional drama.

>>17052016>media would improve as a whole if we got rid of human characters and just replaced them with robots

>MEDIA AS A WHOLE

>Hamlet without retarded human emotions and "feelings">Citizen Kane and Great Gatsby wouldn't have been such disappointments (they focused too much on the story)>>Broadway musicals wouldn't be swirling the drain right now

>>17053276t.mechanicusI feel like the Necrons would actually want to get their human imperfection back if it meant they could actually live life instead of suffer each and every waking breath,until an untimely,miserable grave.

>>17052725>The human emotions and feelings are what make Gundam GundamThe human feelings and emotions are nothing more than the reason why videos have a fast forward option.

>>17053411A basic backstory probably wouldn't hurt, but come on. I'm sick of the generic wide eyed anime teen crying about his feelings, then talking about his friends and the power of love, and then he magically wins without putting any effort in. It's tired out and ruined more than its fair share of shows.

>>17054081>and then he magically wins without putting any effort inWhen did this ever happen in Gundam? Kamille summoned ghosts but if you think Kamille put no effort into piloting then you didn't watch the series. Being a newtype doesn't automatically make you a good pilot, it just generally makes you better than normal people because you have better reflexes and better senses. And in Zeta and ZZ most pilots are either newtypes or cyber newtypes so you still need to be good to beat them. Unless they self destruct like Mashymre.

>>17054204>series about mechs>have a whole race of superhumans that are used as pilotsI like newtypes. The ghost stuff at the end of Zeta was a bit too much but I like the diversity of stuff in Gundam and that it isn't just plotless robot battles like some people want it to be.

>>17054333There literally are no human models in any Armored Core game. There are only massive weapons, MTs, and ACs. Dialogue in VD consists of (mostly) a short line from the AC you're about to kill, or talk from your operator during story missions where you're shooting at things that don't talk.

>>17054324V and VD were the epitome of style over substance, trying to make the game cinematic and pretty. Every map had to have explosions and ships flying everywhere, but every time they were nothing more than cosmetic items splattered across the battlefield. I'd wager we wouldn't constantly drop to 10 FPS if a few of those items were taken out. Also, maybe the multiplayer could've been better if they didn't spend so long jerking themselves off to the plot of the singleplayer. We didn't need this cringe compilation of "dark ravens" and "chosen ones" and "MUH PROPHECY". It was clutter, and the 5th gen suffered heavily for it.

Let's compare that to, oh say, Armored Core 3. Less graphics, less clutter, the story is a simple "bad guy robot wants to kill everyone" plot. The humans are basically disposable, and they drop like flies in the end missions. That's how it's supposed to be.

>>17054567Doug, you're just a retarded autist sperging out over your inability to form emotional connections or even basic empathy. You want to remove these things from your gaming experience because you don't understand these things and you hate what you can't understand. You are not a normal human being. You especially hate women because although you are sexually attracted to them they all reject you for being a retarded sperg. That's why you always go on your retarded crusade against sexuality in video games and you especially can't relate to drama involving women. You are so fucking easy to read it's disgusting.

And if you think Armored Core 3 is some "bad robot wants to kill everyone" story you obviously can't understand simplistic narratives either. What can you even do? You can't even play AC at a high competitive level considering you think fifth gen is all style over substance. Why are you even alive, Doug? You're a failure at everything you're passionate about.

>>17054660>Doug, you're just a retarded autist sperging out over your inability to form emotional connections or even basic empathy. This isn't "Tumblr presents: Armored Core." Emotions and empathy are secondary to actually making a better product. I'll feel empathy with your product when it's delivering high production values, cool mechs, and consistent pacing. Be it an anime series or a video game. Cut out the fat and give me something of substance. Even if it's 22 minutes of tactical robot combat, I'd take that in a heartbeat over [generic waifu of the month] crying about breaking a nail.

>You want to remove these things from your gaming experience because you don't understand these things and you hate what you can't understand.Oh, I understand it alright. I understand that it's nothing more than clutter. I'm arguing efficiency here. I've scripted every single time when a series tried too hard to be "deep" and "emotional." It divebombs the quality greatly. Look at Transformers for example. The best series had zero human sidekicks, while the worst made the Transformers background characters in their own franchise.

>That's why you always go on your retarded crusade against sexuality in video games and you especially can't relate to drama involving women. I don't know why you're making this a sex issue. The "drama" is just as cringeworthy when it's coming out of a man's mouth. Besides, I don't engage in mecha media to listen to some fleshy human talk. I'm here to see robots. You keep the emotional crap to a minimum, and that's all you need to do.

>And if you think Armored Core 3 is some "bad robot wants to kill everyone" story you obviously can't understand simplistic narratives either. You and I both know that the story boils down to that, and the rest is just icing on the cake. The controller is just a rehash of Nineball, and he just wanted to kill humans left and right since his story was expanded in Master of Arena. You're not just a "maintenance unit" keeping humanity in check when you have gigantic doomsday weapons and a super AC ready to unleash at a moment's notice. Hell, his actions in MOA directly led to his downfall because he was going outside of his directives. Same with the Controller. It started malfunctioning and started killing people left and right. The point is that it's a big target and you have to shoot it to win. Really, Armored Core didn't need a much more complex story. This functioned just fine as is.

>You can't even play AC at a high competitive level considering you think fifth gen is all style over substanceI guess it's just my opinion that the online scene is completely dead, ACV's servers had to shut down due to inactivity, the framerate is lucky to reach 30 FPS, and From hasn't touched the series for 5 years?

>You're a failure at everything you're passionate about.Alot of assumptions, friend. The fact of the matter is that i don't bend over and just accept when something is wrong with my favorite giant robot series. How is it ever gonna improve if people do nothing but jerk off From Software and don't tell them that something is wrong? Do you want a repeat of ACV? I guarantee you that even fans of the fifth gen would argue that the games had problems, big ones at that. I suppose the point I'm making, which ties into my thread, is that From reallly needed to ascertain their priorities better. They just lost the plot entirely.

>>17054788>>17054800I'm not going to do any autistic line-by-line back-to-backs with you because you can't even apply your own philosophy of efficiency in your own arguments. You're full of shit, Doug. If you remove all the context around anything and boil it down you can come to the same conclusion about anything. Even V/VD's story can be boiled down to "bad robot wants to kill everyone."

We aren't like you, Doug. We want the context. We want a reason to care about things in the game beyond just the basic premise and gameplay. We want to care about the characters presented by mecha media. We wouldn't care so much about the Feddie vs Zeek rivalry if we didn't have the context behind the struggle. The rivalry between Char and Amuro is legendary in the genre. You take all that away, and what does Gundam really have? Badly animated and repetitive fights between robots with lots of reused animation.

They tried making an AC game with the barest of context because someone at agetech thought the same way as you. It was called Nine Breaker and everyone hated it.

>>17054838>If you remove all the context around anything and boil it down you can come to the same conclusion about anything. Even V/VD's story can be boiled down to "bad robot wants to kill everyone.That wouldn't justify the hours spent talking about Maggie and how she's a sad sack emo child who betrays you because muh glory days. It's boring and, more importantly, her boss fight is pathetic. You could replace her entirely and lose nothing. She was unnecessary as a whole to the plot. Compare her to Zinaida in Last Raven. Sure she doesn't cry or show any feelings other than determination, but that's all you need. And what a shock, her battles are far more challenging and more rewarding when you win, not because I cared any bit about her character, but because her impact on the gameplay was greater.

>We want the context. We want a reason to care about things in the game beyond just the basic premise and gameplay. That's what environmental narrative and natural storytelling are for. You don't need hours of cutscenes to do this, nor do you need characters blabbing and talking about their feelings. last I recall we could have a gigantic war in space without people bringing up drama in it, or worse yet, politics. That just ends up making everything like real life, where war is an unfun and horrible thing led by retards in the government. I play video games for escapism, not realism.

>You take all that away, and what does Gundam really have? Badly animated and repetitive fights between robots with lots of reused animation.I guess that tells you the "quality" of your average gundam series, if it needs to tug at gimmicks to keep you interested.

>They tried making an AC game with the barest of context because someone at agetech thought the same way as you. It was called Nine Breaker and everyone hated it.I'm sure that had nothing to do with the repetitive gameplay, removing several gameplay mechanics like a SHOP, having a confusing and restrictive arena, and etc.

>>17056547The Chief was a cool antagonist, and K was a cool final boss. However, the stuff with Rosary and Maggy and that other chick just got boring quick. All this stuff about story and muh Leon dying and all that just wasn't as fun as when you were directly fighting the bad guys. And they had no motivation beyond "haha I'm an asshole".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0JWS1IkDsQ

Just listen to this guy and tell me he isn't one of the top villains in the series. And sure you could argue that he's good because he's got alot of passion behind being an evil jackass. I'll admit that myself. However, he doesn't dilly dally on it. He doesn't need to explain his tragic backstory or any of that. He's a videogamey bad guy and he's loving the hell out of it.

>>17054567Did you even fucking play 5th gen? It sounds like you read a Google translate plot summary and looked at 2 screenshots. 5th gen is the grimiest of the bunch and the "dark raven" is the player character from V being lost to history. Neither of your characters were chosen or anything, you were just really good pilots.>ac3 bad guy robot wants to kill everyoneDid we play the same 3? I don't think we did. The Controller wasn't even explicitly malfunctioning, it was just trying to keep the war between the 3 factions in check.

>>17056890>5th gen is the grimiest of the bunch and the "dark raven" is the player character from V being lost to historyIf he was "lost to history" people wouldn't be jerking off this stupid prophecy about MUH DARK RAVEN. He should've never even been a plot point. It's just more cinematic wanking ruining the games by trying to make them movies. It's sickening.

>The Controller wasn't even explicitly malfunctioning. it was just trying to keep the war between the 3 factions in check.And it did this by violently murdering everyone and sending superweapons out left and right to kill indiscriminately. Suuuuuure.

>>17057067What "prophecy?" That another skilled pilot would come about and destroy the current state of society? That's happened AT LEAST 3 times in the 4-VD universe, so the AI knows to watch for it. It's also entirely contained to a short cutscene in VD. Also, pretty sure the controller didn't start sending shit in until AFTER the corporations were tearing across districts left and right and destroying shit.

>>17057220Citizen Kane wasn't a good movie just because of the characters. They were just a small part. Cinematography and usage of scenes, stages, shadows, backdrops, and timing played just as big a role. Removing them would weaken the movie, but it would still have much to offer.

Besides, the makers of the movie actually had talent. every hack who writes video game stories wouldn't know how to set up a proper scene with actual likable characters even if Francis Ford Coppola taught them himself.

>>17057276>What "prophecy?" Everything about the Dark Raven was unnecessary cringe and just prolonged the cutscenes that it was in. The story would've been better off without it.

>Also, pretty sure the controller didn't start sending shit in until AFTER the corporations were tearing across districts left and right and destroying shit.The Controller was sending in enforcers long before corporate warfare even reached its peak. Even as early as when you defended Ruglen lab. the conflict hadn't escalated yet. You have to also factor in how much damage was done to the environment of Layered as a result. Do you think, if the AI was simply "doing its job" that it wouldn't be causing all of this collateral damage?

>>17057293Controller ACs are only sent into combat zones, and the massive MTs are sent into barren areas. We never saw a place where people actually lived or worked attacked by the Controller without Crest/Mirage/Kisaragi forces there first. I'll give you that "Dark Raven" is a cringey name, but it's established as a reason that the Foundation AI is trying to establish UNACs and stamp out Ravens.

>>17057310I'm retarded, there's that quad in the reactor mission, but at that point I think the Controller is going "OK, we need to outright remove their ability to make more technology for a while, this society has fallen apart" rather than "destroy the human race" as we see it's last act is to give us a escape from Layered.

The Controller wasn't malfunctioning, it was deliberately pushing the inhabitants of Layered to turn against it so that humanity would not remain complacent with life under it's rule. It's the oft repeated myth of birds pushing their offspring from the nest to force them to learn to fly. Doug is just too retarded to understand this.

>>17057310>Controller ACs are only sent into combat zones, Was Ruglen Laboratory a combat zone? Because it mostly had smaller security MTs protecting it. And that was the first place where you see a Controller Agent. Also, if I'm correct, those massive MTs were eventually gonna make their way to populated areas. The controller wouldn't just have them prantz about in a barren zone for no reason. As a machine, I don't think it comprehends the idea of "scaring them into submission." If it unleashes a doomsday weapon, I'm pretty sure it's gonna be pointed at the largest civilian centers.

>but it's established as a reason that the Foundation AI is trying to establish UNACs and stamp out Ravens.I'm not sure if I buy that. I think the foundation AI was simply gonna do that regardless, and it felt more like Maggie was the one obsessed with the dark raven.

>>17057324This would seem reasonable if it didn't seemingly have plans to just wipe out everyone on the planet. As Silent Line indicates, it's literally got weapons pointed at every part of the world, including Silent Line itself. Unless this is the whole "imma beat you so you learn to get stronger routine" in which case I think you're giving From's writing staff a bit too much credit.

>>17057343Considering how pretentious most modern art is, I'd rather have a collection of pictures. It just seems that letting emotions and feelings run rampant in the media has done more harm than good. I'd rather my mecha shows be cold and sterile, than become something akin to Steven Universe.

>>17057584How do you even know that? For all we know they're all connected towards a central intelligence. It's not mere coincidence that both are named after exotic birds, and both have the exact same system of keeping humans in line. If anything, the existence of that second layered confirms that the robots didn't just "want humans to grow stronger". It literally just wanted them dead. If their purpose wasn't to violently kill all humans under their sway, they did a poor job at it.

>>17057592When you defeat IBIS and DOVE they will both state that their final directive has been fulfilled. Their mission was to be destroyed, either by the population of their Layered or by an invading force from a freed Layered. The Internecine and the Pulverizers are the ones actually trying to destroy humanity, and their methods are far more brutal and different compared to the Controller units. It's possible that IBIS/DOVE were made to strengthen humanity so that they would have a fighting chance should the threat of the Internecine resurface.

>>17057634>When you defeat IBIS and DOVE they will both state that their final directive has been fulfilled. Their mission was to be destroyed, either by the population of their Layered or by an invading force from a freed Layered.That sounds more like a contingency plan, instead of their primary directive, doesn't it? You'd think they would stop short of exterminating the humans if their purpose was to help them grow. Imagine if they succeeded in killing every human under their rule. What would be their directive then?

>It's possible that IBIS/DOVE were made to strengthen humanity so that they would have a fighting chance should the threat of the Internecine resurface.But then who made the Internecine? It shares technology with Nineball, who shares technology with the Controller. Alot of it points to them having similar creators. Infact, in Armored Core Nexus, the final boss is named Nineball, and his suicide weapons are the same as the weapons you fight in Last Raven, as is his color scheme.

I'm aware that this is, of course, just the american version, and the japanese version simply had his name be ????, but i like to think From's jp/NA people aren't as divided as a company like Sega and their intrapersonal wars, so I figure there's gotta be a reason they did that.

The only other explanation would be that there are multiple ancient creators who each made their own AI system (Dove and IBIS being made by one, and the Internecine made by another) but that doesn't really have any evidence in the lore.

>>17057770Also, if I may say, it appears that the Controller had information regarding the second layered, according to the mission in Silent Line where your retrieve info from its mechanical corpse, in particular I believe it had security codes that allowed ravens access to the satellite that guarded Silent Line. So they must share a connection.

>>17057770They literally tell you their purpose has been fulfilled. I don't see how you can twist that into being a contingency plan or how you can argue that they were trying to kill all humans when they literally tell you their purpose has been served without eradicating humanity. Yes, IBIS and DOVE probably share creators, and the fact that they have info on Controller units only supports my theory that the Layereds were meant to free themselves and each other.

If DOVE and IBIS were trying to eradicate humanity, why wouldn't they just roll over everyone with a massive attack like the Internecine's suicide weapons?

>>17057796>They literally tell you their purpose has been fulfilled. I don't buy that this was their primary purpose. It just conflicts with their actions.

>why wouldn't they just roll over everyone with a massive attack like the Internecine's suicide weapons?The Internecine's suicide weapons were nothing compared to a satellite with precision accuracy destroying everything in sight, not just around the silent Line. It also doesn't explain the super weapons they had unleashed. Furthermore, there was nothing showing that they were holding back. They were out for blood. The amount of ravens that got killed just trying to disable their reactors and satellite weapontry was already nothing short of a massacre.

While on the subject, we also see Sera Cross, who was secretly IBIS or something, actively manipulating people into using their technology, so they could turn it against everyone using a command signal. Was that also part of the plan?

>>17057827Why didn't the satellite cannon blast Layered as soon as they emerged from it? Why the DOVE open the hatch of its own accord if it was trying to kill the humans? Why would DOVE allow human society to exist within itself if it was trying to kill everyone inside? Why would IBIS entrust its functions to the first Layered upon defeat? If you can't even take a computer A.I. stating its own directives at face value, what can you even believe in? DOVE and IBIS were clearly capable of causing more destruction than they did. If they had committed their full resources to destroying the humans it very well could have easily done so. Explain, then, why they didn't destroy the humans when you say that's what they were trying to do.

>>17057827>While on the subject, we also see Sera Cross, who was secretly IBIS or something, actively manipulating people into using their technology, so they could turn it against everyone using a command signal. Was that also part of the plan?Yes. The plan was to get the corporations to pool their resources together by creating a plain, undeniable common enemy and force the first Layered society to fight against IBIS as a test of their capabilities.

>>17057853>>17057872I'll be honest, it's hard for me to answer those queries because their directives are so conflicted. It just doesn't make sense for DOVE and IBIS to even keep humans underground if the purpose was to make them stronger and want to rebel. Wouldn't they just force them to live above ground in the wastes? that would make Armored Core feel like a Mad maxx situation, but it sure as hell would strengthen the humans, rather than coddling them in safe space underground cities. That's why it conflicts to me. At the end of the day, it's silly videogamey story, so I never considered it an issue, but when you really think about it, it just seems like the AIs are confused regardless.

For example, the satellite weapon doesn't start attacking people all willy nilly, even if they go near the silent line. However, once someone tries to hack into it, it goes berserk and starts killing everyone left and right. It just seems like too much of a coincidence that the robots planned all of this, just so humans would get along and fight a common enemy. If Armored Core Nexus is to be believed, it didn't even help. Everyone hated eachother regardless, and the Internecine awoke and tried to kill everyone.

>>17057946On that note, why would the robots even want humans to rebel against them? The last time humans banded together to do something, they caused the great cataclysm that destroyed the entire world in the first place. Unless DOVE and IBIS thought that humans couldn't make another Justice Cannon, it was rather shortsighted on their ends.

>>17057946Because humanity isn't ready for the surface yet. DOVE only started trying to push humanity out of Layered when it felt that the population had stabilized and society had a chance of surviving the harsh environment outside. When society instead grows complacent with life under it's rule it starts systematically opposing the population to force them to rebel, because its directive isn't to control humanity forever, but to protect and nurture them until humanity is ready to strike out on its own and leave the nest. That's the reason behind the bird themed names. The Layereds are nests, the controllers are the mother birds, and humanity are the fledging birds.

The Controller and the Layereds were likely built by humans, and those humans didn't want humanity to be directed by an A.I. of their creation forever, so they built the Controller units with planned obsolescence in mind.

>>17057996>The Layereds are nests, the controllers are the mother birds, and humanity are the fledging birds. You know what anon? When you put it that way, it actually makes alot of sense. It no longer seems like a coincidence, considering the bird names. I'll concede this point, maybe the robots had a more complex plan than I initially gave them credit for.

I would like to say that I enjoyed the story regardless because it didn't beat me over the head with those details. It's nice finally making the connection years later.

>>17059627His henhouse in /vg/ was abandoned not that he was ever wanted there and no man, not even those lacking in decency and sanity, can stand to be in /v/ for extended periods of time.Where else would he go?

>>17054800ACV's servers shut down because everybody went to play Verdict Day, which for the record has a much better framerate unless you're talking about a certain set of maps that you only see once every 5 rainbow-colored moons. Motherwill/Bombing, Windy City/Night, etc. In fact, the largest problem of the game is map design related, and not at all about performance. If you're gonna argue against singleplayer focus, shouldn't you be looking at all the other games? especially 4th gen, which had a horribly tacked-on and horrible to use online mode where you had to leave the lobby to change one part and go through two loading screens to load builds?You seem really hung up about this "Dark Raven" stuff or whatever. It shows up in one (1) cutscene in the entire game, where somebody makes a short speech of a few sentences about it, and it is not relevant to anything at all. Removing it would not have made the rest of the game better because it's not something that took up significant resources in any way. 5 tried to make a story happen that got cut everywhere, but the multiplayer was pretty damn good. VD is just a multiplayer game with an excuse campaign. Outside of this one (skippable) cutscene, the game's plot is "there's a crazy super powerful arms dealer using secret tech, he's trying to kill everyone, blow up all his stuff" with a subplot of "this one guy shot down your operator and she's retarded".(cont.)

>>17054800>>17062841Here's the real reason why the series is dead in the west: the gameplay style changes, and the fact that everybody in the fractured ass fanbase is really autistic. You have the faggots who are mad at anything that isn't the old games and who play exclusively the singleplayer on repeat, jack off to the edgelord characters and come up with their epic pilot backstories and shit, and you have people who started at ps3 and only play either 4th or 5th while probably hating the other. The core problem here is also a mindset issue: the kind of people who have been playing the singleplayer games since 1997 will hate anything related to competitive multiplayer. Elite: Dangerous has the exact same issue with it's fanbase, where they're trying to please the crowd that plays the new game for what it is and the crowd that just wants to forever fly from station to station with loads full of slaves by themselves without any form of possible negative interruption or challenge by another human. Armored Core is a niche series in the west anyway, and From sensibly only gives a fuck about the japs in regards to AC.You may also recall that Verdict Day's release was a surprise to even a lot of fans of the series. That's because Bamco is fucking gay, and them waiting half a year to port a very small and very necessary balance patch to the INT servers certainly didnt help either.

>>17062956I'd say it's kinda fair if you don't want your mech game to be story driven, because the gameplay of blowing shit up with your robot should be the central element. For shows, however, what he said was pretty retarded no matter how you look at it.

>>17062841True fans of the series really loved the Dark Raven stuff and Maggy in general, anyway, because she finally brought the beloved term Raven back into the series after two games without and Maggy herself is a composite of the most memorable characters from Last Raven.

>>17057388>wow modern art sure is pretentious guys clearly the state of "high"/abstract art is totally relevant to this argument about entertainment media>just look at steven universe, thats what happens when you let feelings run rampant, those ess jay doubyous though, as a western non mecha show steven universe is definitely relevant to this argument as well because clearly everything that has any degree of emotion will inevitably become a show about 3 lesbian moms and their retarded toddler

>>17057757The truest gattai is the one between the robots and their brave pilots. You know when you get scenes where shit is fucked but the pilot is like "Just hold on a little longer ROBOT NAME!" or "I've only known you for a short time ROBOT NAME, but promise me you'll fight to the death with me" and the robots eyes flash and it looks cool, you couldn't get that with just robots and more robots.I do think we need more AI though, AIs are cool.

Hair tonic, try vitalis, pull your hair back like richard Nixon. Pull some of your bangs foward to get the two stray bangs secure those with some type of gel/palmade. If you find it loose hair spray works. Try that if you really want that look.

>>17064471This, this right here is the good shit. Am son of richfag, have played with race karts and other performance toys a bit, even people who never touch /m/ stuff do things like this with their machines, you hear it all the time and I swear, sometimes at least, the machine responds. I've seen engines blow up as soon as they cross the finish line, carb problems resolve themselves seemingly by magic before the kart has to be on the grid, tires showing more cords than treads hold till the end of an endurance race, and more, there is no better bond than man and machine, so long as you ask it nicely.