Chocky is a public forum so u can be sure that people in the wider community read it too. Thus making inflammatory remarks can and will be taken out of context and sarcasm missed. Where am I going with this? I refer to comments made by someone re acces to cosmic county that if read by the "wrong" people could make it tough to climb there. Same people are the defenders of our ethics. I don't buy it.

Profanities never had bolts, access to the top is not easy, bolted as it is makes it an excellent climb.

Re the bolt on lhv - if u don't like it don't clip it. Age and injury being the great leveler would mean that many who don't need it now may in the future.

I am aware that there is a large mental difference in leading a climb that has rings on it and choosing not to clip the rings (they offer a safety net that u can clip if u need to), and leading a run out climb without those same number of rings. There is no way round this issue except to pull the bolts. Same as soloing with a harness and small rack. In lhv case leave your bolt plate on the ground and ensure all the wires are really tight and can't be used as a clipping point.

I return to my original point - don't retro but like all rules these are for the guidance of the wise and the obedience of fools . Eg who ever retro'd profanities - thanks. But why did u bother with the others? But that was your choice. At the moment I am happy not to clip all the bolts but one day I might.

Ps the bolts may be close by buffalo standards but they are not that close and they much better protect ledge falls.

The bolts are in now so taking them out will cause more damage and possibly upset access. To those who do want to clip them leave your bolt plates on the ground.

>The bolts are in now so taking them out will cause more damage and possibly>upset access. To those who do want to clip them leave your bolt plates>on the ground.

Wow by this argument you may as well open the doors to anyone that wants to create ugly 1.5 metre spaced clip ups on any rock they choose: "Oh they won't remove the bolts because it'll cause more damage". Seriously? Short of assaulting and making an example of the perpetrator (which I'm not advocating) the only way to stop an excessive bolter is to remove the bolts.

How on earth would taking bolts out affect access? Unless there was a really bad patch job.

I wouldn't have led Profanities without the bolts, but that's because I lack the guts / couldn't be bothered with the top rope thing, I don't see that as a problem.

However I don't think the bolt job on Profanities is a bad thing, if the FA had been consulted first.

On 12/02/2013 JMK wrote:>>I return to my original point - don't retro but like all rules these are>for the guidance of the wise and the obedience of fools . Eg who ever retro'd>profanities - thanks. But why did u bother with the others? But that was>your choice.

Yep, it was their choice to retro and anyone else's choice to chop 'em.

>The bolts are in now so taking them out will cause more damage and possibly>upset access.

Care to explain how the fuch you came up with this nonsense? Pulling the bolts will take barely any time, cause no extra damage, and won't be an access issue. It's going to happen, better start getting used to the idea.

ODH I have read some dumbass comments in my time but u are something else.

I am not recommending retro bolting but I have seen where removing the bolts has caused more damage. Also removing can be mis interpreted by the people standing on the lookout and if reported to a ranger... But then I gues u know everything about everything and are clearly the boldest and best climber who ever lived cos I reckon only that guy could have your opinions.

On 11/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>On 11/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:>>Your other points i don't follow and im starting to think you just like>>to argue for the sake of it. Please name a few more classic trad lines>>on the area of the Horn we are talking about, >>I have an appointment to keep at the moment, but I will get back to you>regarding this. Fair warning though, I am not referring to "classic>trad lines", instead I am referring to trad lines vs sport or retro'd>lines; and if you have not worked it out yet, I happen to enjoy trad lines>that others do not consider to be classics.>>>I could give you a dozen sport climbs that have been there a long time.>>~> Likewise, I look forward to seeing your list of them.

On 11/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:>OK Rod any line you can climb and safely protect with artificial pro will do me.

OK Andrew, I am back with the info that a quick perusal of the latest guidebook revealed to me.

The Horn area which I also take to include Mothballs and Dreamworld (and Wall of China*, but more on that later...).

So, what am I saying?
Trad routes outnumber sport routes by approximately 50%.
Mixed routes (ie minimal bolting to make them a sane proposition to the first ascentionists) equal the 'sport' routes; ~> & by default add to the trad ethic by a margin of 100%

... and if you include the Wall of China routes (that I believe you should for that area), then the already established trad ethic even further outweighs the poxy retro-bolting that has taken place recently.

There has been an awful lot of new bolts placed at Buffalo in the last 10 years. Some of them very closely placed and on questionable routes. Some as retrobolts. I hope the bolt choppers start by removing these older bolts before the new ones.

On 12/02/2013 JMK wrote:>(snip) I have seen where removing the>bolts has caused more damage. Also removing can be mis interpreted by>the people standing on the lookout and if reported to a ranger... But then>I gues u know everything about everything and are clearly the boldest and>best climber who ever lived cos I reckon only that guy could have your>opinions.>

I don't believe ODH is alone in his opinions.
JMK, it is granite not sandstone, so removal damage is likely to be minimal, and I doubt the removalists will be inclined to slurry the climber ethic by doing it in full view of tourons.

On 12/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>There has been an awful lot of new bolts placed at Buffalo in the last>10 years. Some of them very closely placed and on questionable routes.>Some as retrobolts. I hope the bolt choppers start by removing these older>bolts before the new ones.

So are you advocating chopping some J G routes? ... not that his hasn't been discussed already in some circles...

To 'retro-phrase' what was said earlier . . .
The bolts should not have gone in so taking them out will erase the damage and therefore possibly not upset access. To those who don't want to clip gear, leave your bolt drills on the ground.

M9- l stood at the stone hut on 9 December and amazed as I watching an older couple climb up down across and all over Wall of China following no particular route marked in the guide, unfortunately itís a bit beyond me but I guess they are the sort of climber you would like to preserve Buffalos thousands of slabs and climbable rock surfaces for. While I admire their skill but is there also no room for even just 2 or 3 climbs in a small area that are bolted grade 7-9. Previously the granite on those climbs was poor quality very loose large crystals that would roll and fall under your toes. Looking at that picture it looks like its had some traffic in the last 2 summers and has gone from a dark weathered grey to a cleaner light granite. Doubt if any climbing monkeys would have bothered on either previously but I think quite a few newer climbers have since

Here is that list of bolted climbs in the HORN AREA not the entire region with Mothballs and China. Ive tried them all at some point and fallen my way up a few of them. The list from the top level down to Parrot
1. Peroxide
2. Hoi Poloi
3. Waiting for Bangla
4. Stone the Crows
5. Glitterato
6. Paparazzi Nazi
7. Address to Haggis
8. Big Fun
9. They Dance Alone
10. Songlines
11. Change of Heart
12. Rent a Crowd
13. Crowlands
14. Parrot on a Stick
15. Profanities (since 2008/9)
In comparison I only know a few good trad lines on this same area at the Horn
ē Pintle x2
ē LHV
ē Dick Selector
and a coulple more not so good

>For my part, I started climbing somewhere with a strong mountain tradition>and where climbing is a mentoring pursuit. We don't even have outdoor education>in Utah because everybody actually does stuff in the outdoors. My dad had>me crawling up rocks I shouldn't have been carrying fishing gear and guns>by the time I was about 10. When you're fifteen and psyched on roped climbing>you don't get taken out by ghastly knuckleheads from TAFE, you get taken>out by a gruff bearded dude in his 50's called Jack that you met when you>walked up to the base of the cliff to have a look around. He teaches you>how to not kill yourself, respect the mountains, and then imparts the knowledge>you need when you need it. When you have questions or want to know if you>should splash bolts across those obvious and classic unclimbed boulders>on the approach you call him and he kindly explains that, sure, you are>free to do such a thing but it is probably not a good idea and the community>might collectively frown. Then he'd take you out, have you set them up>as a TR, and climb them with you. As was noted above, rigging safe TRs>is the first thing noobs should be doing anyway.

Singersmith a good read and your story makes sense from the background and opportunities you had climbing. Be great if we all had one of those 50 yo mentors, a little envious. But donít disrespect or pay out on TAFE/UNI climbers, some may be knuckle heads like myself but most who choose to get into climbing are passionate about it and their stories may be quite different than your but just as legitimate.
Looking closely at your pic looks like you are jumping 4 metres above the start of pintle 2nd pitch to base of LHV. That is some monkey move without a rope, no wonder you donít need bolts, but I hope you donít think most others would want to try the same move.

Uwhp510 nice graphics and I get the idea. Left is Dick Selector, Middle red line- this granite face is loose crystally and poor quality and I think the undercut may be impossible but I would like to see it done as you have drawn. Right is what is being contested Swervn Mervin along with Easter Island the lower pic. They are both less than average and a few people here get far more serious than i even care about.

Ive spent far more time here than i have to spare so its time to get away from the screen and get outdoors but just want to make a couple of points.
-There have been a number of broad sweeping statements which only apply to one particular thing but makes it sound like it effects climbs all over the horn
-A few are prone to exaggeration and alarmist comments such as spraying bolts all over the horn, which understandably may raise some emotions if people took exaggeration as fact or imagined something even worse.
-Finally people who are conservative or fundamentalist by nature tend to become far more fanatical than liberal thinkers. I dont feel strongly about this as others do. Just thought it was worth debating some other views, even if they did fall on deaf ears, before a suggestion on the second page was carried out. Good luck whatever whatever

On 13/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:>Here is that list of bolted climbs in the HORN AREA not the entire region

Yes these routes have bolts but they aren't sport routes. Some people pop gear in the corner before getting to the first bolt on Peroxide. The routes Big Fun, They Dance Alone, Crowlands have gear placements, at least when I did them. Dividing climbs between 'sport' and 'trad' at Buffalo based on bolting is generally a bad idea and a recipe for trouble. The current guidebook doesn't bother with the distinction for a reason.

On 13/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:>Ive spent far more time here than i have to spare so its time to get away>from the screen and get outdoors but just want to make a couple of points.>-There have been a number of broad sweeping statements which only apply>to one particular thing but makes it sound like it effects climbs all over>the horn

I got the feeling u enjoyed broad sweeping statements. Go back and read your long winded drivel about anonymous users and chockstone in general.

>-A few are prone to exaggeration and alarmist comments such as spraying>bolts all over the horn, which understandably may raise some emotions if>people took exaggeration as fact or imagined something even worse.

It might raise emotions?? So did the bolts.

>-Finally people who are conservative or fundamentalist by nature tend>to become far more fanatical than liberal thinkers. I dont feel strongly>about this as others do. Just thought it was worth debating some other>views, even if they did fall on deaf ears, before a suggestion on the>second page was carried out. Good luck whatever whatever>
U didn't debate anything. U just went on a self justification trip.

On 13/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:>Ive spent far more time here than i have to spare so its time to get away>from the screen and get outdoors but just want to make a couple of points.>-There have been a number of broad sweeping statements which only apply>to one particular thing but makes it sound like it effects climbs all over>the horn >-A few are prone to exaggeration and alarmist comments such as spraying>bolts all over the horn, which understandably may raise some emotions if>people took exaggeration as fact or imagined something even worse.>-Finally people who are conservative or fundamentalist by nature tend>to become far more fanatical than liberal thinkers. I dont feel strongly>about this as others do. Just thought it was worth debating some other>views, even if they did fall on deaf ears, before a suggestion on the>second page was carried out. Good luck whatever whatever>
I think you're of the misconception that a lot of the posters on this thread have a blanket apathy to bolts, especially Superstu. Quite a few of the people being critical of the actions at the Horn have placed their share of bolts, however on new routes or with permission of the FA ... I don't think most climbers are anti-bolting, we're anti-indiscriminate bolting.

>-Finally people who are conservative or fundamentalist by nature tend>to become far more fanatical than liberal thinkers.

I don't mean to hurt your feelings Andrew, but when you come out and write egotisical claptrap like that and other pieces in your opinions, it's no wonder people on this site might be getting slightly upset.
I've only climbed Big Fun and Peroxide Blonde, where i placed an extended sling from the 2nd(?) bolt when rapping down,(do people still ab from the dodgy fence) as the climb was at my limits then and the extra security felt nice but if i wasn't able to place an extended sling i would of just Hardened the F#@k Up!...So i not going to debate on the other climbs apart from to say this: It's great taking new people out climbing, it's better seeing them overcome there fears.
I'm not saying people should climb death routes, but (and as i'm sure you would know) if you let your mum,sister,clients give up each time they were scared, they would of never gotten on to a rope, let alone the sharp end.
Good luck to you and all, yada yada yadda

On 13/02/2013 maadness wrote:>(do people still ab from the dodgy fence)

PVic don't wish people to do that. In fact they had a bee in their bonnet over climbers using it as an anchor to belay off, so they were happier when two bolts* were placed outside the fence above Peroxide Blonde, for climbers to use instead.
(*This info is in old threads of which this is but one).

As an aside, the fence at that lookout has been renewed, and the bolts are quite unobtrusive.