This blog was formerly about the quest of a John to find the 'voluntary prostitute' in the Netherlands. How does a client of prostitutes separate the forced from the voluntary ones? Is it possible? That turns out to be a very difficult question. My current believe is that prostitution can never be regulated and that it would be better if people don't visit prostitutes. I see prostitution as paid sexual harassment, and therefore a human rights violation.

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Saturday, June 02, 2012

Dina Siegel

A couple of months ago, the police in Eindhoven raided the Baekelandplein, a window prostitution area. They closed off the square and interrogated 44 prostitutes. 300 policemen raided the area. Some arrests were made. I believe this is not the right way to liberate women who are forced in prostitution. A similar action was done some time ago in Den Haag, in the Doubletstraat. All the prostitutes who were interrogated said they worked voluntarily in prostitution. I believe that either way this is because the prostitutes are too afraid of their pimps, or they are very loyal towards their pimps. Often they are in love with their pimps, and obviously you don't cheat on your boyfriend. Human traffickers often make threats to the women, for instance to kill their loved ones, or to publish nude pictures, or to use violence of some sort. I believe that if you want to liberate a forced prostitute, then you have to take time. You must slowly win her trust.
But this post is not about the Baeklandplein. It is about someone else. Suddenly she popped up. Guess who?

Dina Siegel!

She did some radio interviews, and I will offer translations of what she has said. It is quite astonishing.

I know about her work. She has interviewed some Russian speaking prostitutes, in the Netherlands and in Turkey. I mention her here, in this post:

In this post I refer to a chapter written by her in the book Transnational Crime [2005], edited by Jay Albanese, see the chapter: "women trafficking and voluntary prostitution: Russian-speaking sex-workers in the Netherlands" (page 4-23) by Dina Siegel.

What she says contradicts nearly all information that I gathered about Eastern European prostitutes in the Netherlands. Nearly always you read or hear that Eastern European prostitutes are exploited or extorted by pimps. The Eastern European prostitutes often know that they will work in prostitution in the Netherlands, but they end up in dire straits anyway. Dina Siegel has interviewed dozens of Russian speaking prostitutes, and she doesn't confirm anything about this grim image. On the contrary, the women she interviewed were very independent. These women even had tricks to scare off the real human traffickers, by saying to the human traffickers that they are controlled by really nasty Eastern European criminal gangs.

It is difficult to explain her really contradictory finding. One explanation is that she somehow has interviewed only the independent Eastern European prostitutes. Prostitutes don't come falling from the clear blue sky. You have to approach them first. I can imagine, that if you find a prostitute and you make an appointment with her to speak with her in a cafe or something, then it is very likely that you are unwittingly filtering out the forced prostitutes, because forced prostitutes simply don't have the time to speak to you. They have to work after all in the meantime!!! I know that Dina Siegel makes use of the snowball method. This goes as follows: you ask a person you have interviewed to find another person for you whom you can interview. I think this also could explain why she only finds relatively independent prostitutes. I can imagine that voluntary prostitutes move largely within their own circles, being unaware of involuntary prostitutes. And if they do know involuntary prostitutes, they obviously don't refer the researcher to them. In her research she speaks about in the book I mentioned, she also didn't interview window prostitutes, but escort prostitutes who work in the illegal sector. Window prostitutes are often known to be forced in prostitution much more often, compared to prostitutes who work in other sectors.

During the last few years, Dina Siegel, together with others, went to Eastern European countries, like Romania and Bulgaria, and interviewed prostitutes who have worked in Western Europe. She has also interviewed children about their future plans (it turns out that many want to work in prostitution when they are old enough). And again, she doesn't find anything about the horror stories that you so often hear. It is true that the prostitutes need recruiters to come here, and it is true that they have to hand over some of their earnings to these recruiters, but the women don't feel themselves as being exploited at all.

I have another explanation why Dina Siegel finds something so completely different. She has a different opinion of what is forced and what is voluntarily. She emphasises what the girls say themselves about what is voluntarily and what is forced. I believe her opinion is similar to that of Laura Agustín. I have followed the website of Laura Agustín for several years (www.lauraagustin.com), and what I understand from her is that she is of the opinion that you must always respect the decision of a person, how horrible the result of the decision may seem from the outside. So, if a woman decides to work in prostitution, and then ends up in a situation of horrible sexual exploitation, then you must respect her decision. Feeling pity for her is supposed to be belittling towards her. The point is, that it turns out that indeed many forced prostitutes don't seem to realise their exploitative situation. For instance, they could be of the opinion that they have a real genuine romantic relationship with their boyfriend, and give all the money they earn to their boyfriend, not realising that for him it is all about the money. Sometimes these women blame the violence directed towards them on themselves. You also often see that pimps play tricks on the women, making them believe that they have to pay off a virtual debt. These women indeed often are of the opinion that they have a duty to pay off these debts. But is this voluntary? I believe that a person can still be exploited and oppressed, while the same person doesn't experience it that way. For instance, I'm sure that many women in Saudi Arabia support the system which oppresses them (strict sharia law), while at the same time we still believe as Westerners that they are exploited. It is often true that many people who are oppressed support the system which oppresses them. That's the tragic thing of it all. I do pity people are exploited! And I don't agree with Dina Siegel and Laura Agustín!

Dina Siegel held a speech before Studium Generale of the University of Utrecht (October 26,2011). She explains her research of the last few years. You can find her speech here:

There are three topics which she researched:
1. Nigerian prostitutes.
2. Prostitutes from the city of Sliven in Bulgaria.
3. Roma gypsy prostitutes.

I want to write about this speech later on my blog. She says something about 11-year-old girls who prostitutes themselves on the streets of some Eastern European countries. She talks about Roma gypsy families in which boys are predestined to become robbers, and girls are predestined to become prostitutes. Roma gypsy mothers even train their young minor daughters to become prostitutes later. Houses are built with the money earned from theft and prostitution. She also talks about Nigerian women who bring their daughters to recruiters so that they can earn money in Europe for the family.

After the raid on the Baekelandplein Dina Siegel appeared on some radio shows, I will give an exact representation of what she has said. I will translate it into English, and also show the original Dutch transcriptions I have made. Here again, she denies that forced prostitution is really such a big problem. I hope she is right. It would be absolutely wonderful if a problem that we thought existed on a fairly large scale didn't exist on a large-scale after all! But I'm afraid she is wrong.

Now, for some transcriptions of what she said.

Here you can find the source(s) of one radio interview which is an interview by Felix Meurders for DeGids.fm (VARA, March the 18th 2012):

In the above link there is also a Dutch text which contains some commentary by Dina Siegel, which does not appear in the radio interview. Here is the translation of the text:

Last weekend there was a police action in the red light district of Eindhoven. As many as 300 police agents stormed the cubicles and took 44 prostitutes with them. With the action the police wants to come to grips with organised crime which is supposedly pulling the strings in this area. Professor of criminology Dina Siegel has big doubts if organised crime is involved in prostitution. "Most girls come voluntarily. Eastern European girls especially come to become financially better off it. Western Europe is a dream where they can make money, with which they can maintain their families in their own country."

Siegel is unhappy about the Dutch approach against violence, exploitation and human trafficking in prostitution. "The problem is presented in a wrong way: there is being spoken in terms of criminal organisations, violence and exploitation, but these don't fit in the reality of prostitution. Prostitution is legalised, and we have to deal with that in a nuanced way, and not black-white like it happens is now. Take De Wallen, the knowledge of what happens there is very small. They are talking about general organised crime, but they know nothing about it, also not about who the victims are then: there are no large numbers of charges pressed, and the alleged perpetrators are not prosecuted. That organised crime is behind it has never been proven."

"The question however is which problem you want to tackle. Prostitution is named here in one breath with human trafficking, where a difference in nuance is overlooked. I have been doing research into human trafficking for years, and what I observe is that Eastern European girls especially come here to become financially better off it. Western Europe is a dream where they can make money, with which they can maintain their families in their own country. Many of these girls go voluntarily, and have already gained experience in their own country in prostitution. Look at De Wallen: most girls there are voluntarily there, and then I don't speak only about Eastern European girls. Exploitation and deception aren't relevant in this situation of these days." Siegel has spoken with Romanian and Bulgarian girls. "They dream of making money in the Netherlands. These girls provide a contribution to their families, they don't do that under pressure per se, but from a sort of family feeling."

And here is the transcription of the radio interview, translated from Dutch into English:

[Introduction by unknown person: Friday evening eight o'clock, the police enters the Baekelandplein in Eindhoven and seals it off hermetically. The 44 prostitutes are transported in buses to the city hall, and interrogated. The suspicion is that they are the victim of human trafficking and exploitation. [Rob van Gijzel:] "and we have a strong indication that half of the women who must work there or who work there, that half of them must work."]
[Newsreader: mayor Rob van Gijzel at Omroep Brabant, where he justifies the large-scale combing out of a prostitution area. As many as 300 policemen stormed the little cubicles and brought 44 prostitutes along with them. Goal: to protect these same prostitutes against exploitation and to come to grips with organised crime which is supposedly pulling the strings in this area. Does the end justify the means and what does it yield. I talk about this with professor of criminology Dina Siegel of the University of Utrecht. Miss Dina Siegel, good morning.] Good morning. [Newsreader: during the action I believe six people have been apprehended in the end. Is that a satisfactory result for such a large-scale action, you believe?] Yes, I don't know, I know that if you perform such a large action, then you have to be well informed in advance about those specific six persons, so you must have good information. And when you have that, why must you attack so many other people in such a case? [Newsreader: why would such an action be performed?] Ehm, I believe that it was more like a sort of signal, and then I assume that indeed good information came in. [Newsreader: yes.] Especially from Eastern Europe, because we hear that most prostitutes at this moment come from Eastern Europe and Nigeria. And a signal to those partners in those other countries, in Eastern Europe, that the police does something here with this information. [Newsreader: because the Eastern Europeans give information to the Netherlands and ultimately something is done with it.] Well, when I hear that the euh, there are strong indications for such an action, then I assume that good information came in. And then you have to do something with it, and then the signal towards the partners is a continuation of a good cooperation within a general European approach of organised crime, human trafficking, that the Dutch police is capable to take part in such an action, in such an approach. [Newsreader: and according to the authorities of Eindhoven such an action eventually yields insights about the networks behind prostitution.] Networks, well that goes... [Newsreader: organised crime then.] Yes, organised crime is seen at this moment as networks, some 20 years ago it was seen as a sort of pyramidal hierarchic structure, a sort of mafia-like with a Godfather at the top, (she mumbles something like: 'hardly changed'). I have big doubts if organised crime is involved in prostitution. [Newsreader: well, the funny thing is also that people who have been apprehended have often been apprehended for something completely different, those six men, they were, they had partly too much money in their pockets, or they had drugs at their disposal. So the question remains if they are part of a network, and so you put question marks on that, and why actually?] Euh, I don't know, euh, nothing about drugs, it was about human trafficking. [Newsreader: no, no, in general about this organised crime in prostitution.] Organised crime is nowadays seen in connection with drugs criminality, with human trafficking, there has been a long list which has been drawn up by the United Nations of, of the modern activities of organised crime. If this action in Eindhoven had something to do with organised crime, we have no information about that. I assume that the police was very well informed about certain persons, but then the question arises, obviously, why all prostitutes? Why all people who were involved?... [Newsreader: well, I just heard the mayor say: 50% of the prostitutes there, they work against their liking, they must work there he literally said.] And that is the big problem, that human trafficking has become a synonym of prostitution. And we forget that prostitution is a legal profession, and we know very little about the backgrounds and the involvement of organised crime in prostitution. The best example is obviously De Wallen where there is still a shortage of information, insights and empirical data about the involvement of organised crime. [Newsreader: about De Wallen still not enough?] No, that is still about suspicions, that is about what is said by Lodewijk Asscher: criminogenic aspects, whatever this could be, within criminology we don't know this concept really, and criminality is one of the factors of prostitution, but we don't have solid facts and good empirical knowledge. [Newsreader: but you have done a lot of research regarding this, you have spoken with girls, and you are not so convinced of the coercion.] No, we have done research, I have done research in the countries of origin of the girls, in Romania and Bulgaria, I have spoken with the girls myself, and when I hear Lodewijk Asscher say: "I don't believe that 18-year-old girls from Hungary come to the Netherlands voluntarily", then I say, he must set off to Hungary, or to Romania and Bulgaria, and talk with the girls. It is really true that girls view work in prostitution in the Netherlands, Western Europe in general, as a very attractive thing. They want to come to the Netherlands, make money quickly because they don't want to be so long and so deeply in poverty or in a desperate situation in their own country. [Newsreader: do you really mean that?] Yes, it is about economic factors, and the girls then we also have then euh then we also have had conversations with the police and with the judiciary and with organisations of social work for example in Bulgaria, and they all say that it has become a sort of fashion for young people (to come) to Western Europe, to the Netherlands. [Newsreader: there are no pimps involved in this, there are no human traffickers involved in this?] Yes, that is a different question, what are the modern pimps, he? These are very many, look, human trafficking and prostitution is a very complex phenomenon. There also have been researches into loverboys, I believe that that is really a modern form of a pimp. Human traffickers are seen by the girls themselves in these countries not a something negative. They see it as a helper to come to the country, a sort of agent who arranges everything for them to go from Hungary... [Newsreader: making money for the family, and doesn't the family put them under pressure?] Sometimes they do, sometimes they do. [Newsreader: do you have still income for us to gather?] Yes. [Newsreader: then it is against their will isn't it?] Yes, sometimes it is, but this is related to cultural aspects, social aspects of certain ethnic groups, we are talking here about certain ethnic minorities in these countries... [Newsreader: such as?] Such as Roma. And girls and young women see it as a sort of family duty to contribute to the shared income of the whole clan, the whole family. And then they are willing to sacrifice themselves to work in prostitution for a short while, especially behind the windows, Hungarian women who (work) here, mostly are Roma girls, and shared money is invested in euh for example euh... [Newsreader: but so they do this because their family demands it.] Or because of their own feeling of commitment, that's what we don't know obviously, we always tend to negative images, we don't think in the perceptions of the women themselves. Just like we say exploitation, coercion here, these are our Western perceptions, we think that the women also think that, but when you start a conversation with the girls then they have different images. Yes, perhaps this is exploitation in our terms, in our perceptions, but they see it as a quick way to make money. [Newsreader: well, if it is made compulsory by the family, or, or yes, perhaps that they think, it is just a part of it, then we must do it, then it isn't trafficking anyway. Girls, you say, are for a large part voluntarily here, at least if they come from there.] Yes, only, there is actually a problem and I have named this a short while ago, of loverboys, I think that is related to what I call relationships-addiction, that they, they are dependent on certain feelings of certain, relational connection with these boys, and there I see a sort of mental coercion, but most women who come here these are voluntary sex workers... [Newsreader: and there is no evidence of organised crime.] And no evidence of organised crime, but perhaps .. [Newsreader: but I just go back to Amsterdam once more, the sweeping clean of De Wallen, this yielded the Gonsalvesprijs for the city. And minister Opstelten called the Wallen-project an effective approach towards organised crime. There we have it again he? The organised crime.] Yes, yes. [Newsreader: is Opstelten talking out of the back of his neck then?] Well, then, my question to Opstelten is: which organised crime, who are the organised criminals, where do they come from, what are the motives, what are they doing, let us show these facts, not only suspicions, and when there are strong indications however, well then we also have to see and feel, not only the general image of that all women are victims of human trafficking and all that, you have to tackle this in a different way. We have no knowledge, we have no empirical data about organised crime on De Wallen, and this seems to me a little bit of abstract terms what we also hear from Opstelten. [Newsreader: so hunting for organised crime is also not useful at all.] Organised crime is... [Newsreader: in this case he?] Yes, in this case it isn't. Organised crime does exist, only, you must actually find concrete people behind this abstract concept of organised crime. Who are the networks, what do they do here, why do they come to the Netherlands, what is so attractive in the Netherlands, that is what you have to understand first to make up an approach or euh policy. [Newsreader: we actually still know way too little.] Very little. [Newsreader: but, of what you do know, what you have heard from the girls yourself, in the M-O-E countries, in Middle and Eastern Europe.] MOE countries this is called. [Yes, I just tell it. Then, then, of this you say yes, they are not coerced, at the very most by their family, but even this we don't know.] Even this we don't know, there are much less... more causes and reasons to come to the Netherlands, and to end up in this profession, than coercion and exploitation. [Newsreader: Dina Siegel, professor of criminology on the University of Utrecht, about the - in her eyes - almost useless actions against prostitution.]

She also showed up in a second radio show, probably on Omroep Brabant (March 28, 2012), here is the source:

Well, without knowing all the details, I assume that the police had good information about those perpetrators whom they have dealt with, and that also this information played the biggest role in such a big action. If it is necessary based on suspicions that there is human trafficking taking place in the prostitution branch in Eindhoven, yes, it is prostitution and human trafficking are being viewed as synonyms nowadays, which is not correct in my perception. [Newsreader: which is not correct you say.] No. [Newsreader: no, no, because euh yes, that is the image that we have after all, what has also been expressed by the mayor amongst others, mayor van Gijzel, who says like yes, half of the ladies who work there on the Baekelandplein, yes, there is somewhere something wrong with it, there is something like women trafficking attached to this.] Well, I don't know on what he bases these utterances, because we in criminology don't know enough about the use of violence or coercion or exploitation. Euhm, on the other hand we do research, I do lots of research in Eastern European countries, and I know that there is almost no question of coercion, and it is voluntary prostitution. Women come to the Netherlands to make money quickly, and they come here to escape from poverty in their own country, they want to be left alone here. So it doesn't fit with that information and the data which we have collected in our research. Euhm, I don't believe that 50% of all women who work in prostitution are victims of human trafficking. [Newsreader: no well yes, the mayor was talking about the Baekelandplein, and he says like yes, we have established there actually that euh, yes, that there is something like criminal group practices behind it, internationally operating gangs, where would that image, because you say like well euh, these girls euh, so euh, to my research, from my research it emerges that, those girls they work their actually voluntarily for the largest part, where would that image come from then?] Yes, it is a bit of an oversimplified imaged which arose during the last years, and certainly after these big actions which now take place on De Wallen in Amsterdam for example, but also there (in Amsterdam - Donkey) there is being talked about so-called criminogenic aspects, and it isn't about hard facts or euh, real knowledge, real information about organised crime, and what we know from criminological research abroad, is that organised crime is a very abstract concept, and, and then we must have many more details, much more data per individual case to draw such, euh, such a far-reaching conclusion, and also to make up an approach. [Newsreader: yes, you say it must be viewed per case, but the general image that there are criminal organisations active in this sector, the prostitution sector, is that correct?] Also not true, at least from the research that we do, or, in which I am involved in. It is actually known that economic necessity plays a big role at this moment, that a big gap between the economic situation in Eastern Europe, in Nigeria, in South America, and Western Europe, so it is attractive for the women to come to the Netherlands. The income that they receive here they invest this in their own country. They try in such a way to arrange their life, support their parents, to bring their own children to good schools. We also see that houses are being built. So I don't know why ehm, yes, it still is so much seen in connection with, with human trafficking, with exploitation. It obviously is true that there were a couple of big cases, the notorious Sneep-case which probably provided the reason for such a generalisation, and stigmatisation of this, actually a legal profession, prostitution is legal in the Netherlands. [Newsreader: what would you advise the mayor of Eindhoven?] I would advise to do an in-depth research, also with a collaboration of police and judiciary, and also researchers, perhaps of criminological research or judiciary search, also from the background countries of the women, to be sure that the women came involuntarily, that there is coercion, that violence is being used. And don't treat everybody based on suspicions only, or a risk group, only that perhaps they are forced to work in prostitution. [Newsreader: yes, perhaps if I hear you like this, this can be done - as far as you are concerned - also without these kind of large raids.] Yes, that's what I believe.

Prostitution is seen as a sort of 'social service' he? It isn't seen as something very bad euh bad he? So not a fallen women, and not as in the past it is seen. Everybody also understands that the bad economic situation, desperate situation, especially on the countryside in these countries, and attraction of the Western world, play a big role.

[Newsreader: for Siegel the action is one big question mark.]

It is not based on facts. Look, we do research in the countries he? We talk with the girls in Romania, in Bulgaria, and we know that at this moment also other aspects play a big role, not only coercion and not only poverty that is always named.

[...]

We also see these girls who are no victims at all, or at least, they don't feel themselves as being exploited, they don't feel a victim, that is a big difference obviously.

[…]

And that there are abuses, that's what I also don't deny, but these are abuses which are connected to violence, or with relational problems, that happens everywhere, in all branches, in all, well, all families [laughs] or euh, it also happens behind closed doors, at bona fide companies and families. [Newsreader: they have exaggerated it here.] That's what I do believe.

4 comments:

How do you achieve to take the only one doing really some research where they ask the girls, and say that she filters without knowing it? She's the only one reporting about what she found, instead of what she assumes.

She is still careful not to make fuss, but she is at least critical of the hype!

Vanwesenbeeck writes about the prostitution branch as a mostly healthy branch that is associated with the wrongdoings. These are not part of it. Venicz doesn't work with fieldwork, in her papers there is re-working of earlier papers of bad research. And I haven't read good things from Bovenkerk, he hasn't done good fieldwork. Siegel is the only one of these that starts critical, she is doing independent things.

Which reports of Liesbeth Venicz are you referring to? Liesbeth Venicz has done fieldwork during the end of the 90s in Groningen. She wrote a report about it called: Achter de ramen - Veldwerk onder raamprostituees in Groningen 1997 - 1998. You can lend the report at the library of www.aletta.nu, they can send it to you if you pay some money. I also copied the report in its entirety, so if you want to I can send a PDF. Liesbeth Venicz also wrote with Ine Vanwesenbeeck the report Er gaat iets veranderen in de prostitutie … in 2000. The thing is that these reports are very old. It could be that the situation has drastically improved. But on the other hand, how come that pimps like Saban B, Youssef O.b.A. and others are arrested? And what about the Hungarian pimps in the Molensteeg? And all these court cases, where do they come from? There's still something going on. Something bad. And I believe that Dina Siegel somehow missed it, because her way of recruiting prostitutes somehow results in not detecting the forced prostitutes. I think you have to go out into the field, and Dina Siegel hasn't done that. She just interviewed a prostitute, who brought her into contact with other prostitutes, the latter group again brought her into contact with yet another group of prostitutes. I think this way there is a chance that you miss the forced prostitutes. Dina Siegel never went to De Wallen herself to become acquainted with prostitutes there. How can she say that all prostitutes on De Wallen work voluntarily? She doesn't know about this first hand.

About Me

I am a compulsive visitor of prostitutes and porn sites, and I desperately want to stop. I'm also known as Kris2 and @Donkey_Kris2 on twitter. I have studied the Dutch sex industry for years to find information about how to separate forced from voluntary prostitutes, and I share this information on my blog. My current position is that prostitution and porn are always violations of human rights. Prostitution is paid sexual harassment of poor and destitute people who have very limited means to prevent this harassment. Porn is sexual torture captured on film. I would brand myself as a socialist, a vegan, an abolitionist and as a sex-negative person.