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Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

You took the bait, Oldtimer.

If you make honey bees that do not make honey, they aren't honey bees anymore. Better preserve bumble bees or so. Yes, those are endangered, too, as other wild pollinators. Must be bad husbandry, I suppose...

Anti-honeybee-husbandry: not knowing what a honeybee is.

Mella fluunt tibi.
(Latin for: The honey may flow for you. Émile Warré, father of the people's hive.)

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

Originally Posted by Daniel Y

It is now my opinion that it was the varroa infestation that brought the production of this otherwise healthy looking hive to a near stand still. Once treated they started producing again. This year this same hive mite free never showed no slow down in July. Mites do more than just kill colonies.

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel

If you make honey bees that do not make honey, they aren't honey bees anymore.

It's funny how some people don't do greyscale. No one is talking about raising bees that make no honey, Bernhard, that would just be daft. The conversation is about whether using honey production as a key selective measure about all other considerations is the best way to go about tf beekeeping. Or something of that sort. Do try and get with the program will you?

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

Apparently you missed the discussion a few posts above. Here's part of it:

"As cg3 pointed out, there is no point of resistant bees, which don´t produce honey."

Do you really think cg3 really meant 'no honey at all'? None whatsoever? Do you really think anyone, anywhere in the world, entertains the notion of raising honeybees that don't make any honey at all?

Or might s/he have meant 'less than the optimum amount by a significant degree', or something of that sort?

Sometimes, black-&-white people, you need to read between the lines - to look for the actual meaning within the words, rather than deliberately obtusely taking them at face value. I know the confusion/disruption factor is weaker, but you'll make those of us who value good conversation much happier.

For heaven's sake stop the nonsense and engage in the conversation. Here's the (evolving) question for those who've missed it:

How much, and under what circumstances, should we rely on honey productivity as measure by which to select for mite resistance. And why.

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

Originally Posted by mike bispham

Do you really think anyone, anywhere in the world, entertains the notion of raising honeybees that don't make any honey at all?

Of course there are! You don't have to read Beesource very long to see that there are people who own bees simply for their pollination efforts, and make no effort to harvest any honey those bees may produce.

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack

Of course there are! You don't have to read Beesource very long to see that there are people who own bees simply for their pollination efforts, and make no effort to harvest any honey those bees may produce.

You are not responding to the question I asked. I'm sure you're right in saying some may be largely indifferent to honey production levels, but does anyone deliberately raise bees with the aim of not producing any?

Even if they were, (and I'd be appalled, but not surprised) I don't think that is a widespread practice. And anyway: its all beside the point.

Question for you Graham: what measures, what assays, do you use to select for mite resistance?

What assays would you suggest for those who are indifferent to productivity (and are aiming to raise mite resistance)

What assays would you suggest for those who want zero productivity (and are aiming to raise mite resistance)

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack

How do you reconcile both statements?

First: honest conversation evolve. People learn, and adjust their positions accordingly. The statements don't have to be reconciled: in the first case it hadn't occurred to me that some people might actually want to breed out productivity (and I'm still trying to digest the implications of that for a selection process); in the second case I'd taken it on board. Is there something strange about that? Is learning a foreign concept to you? Perhaps you manage to learn without ever changing your former understanding?

Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack

If you don't write what you actually mean, how can the rest of us even begin to understand what you are trying to say?

So you see you are misrepresenting what happened. Any inconsistency in the two statements is due to my adjusting my position in the light of new information.

Try to get over the urge to be difficult Graham. This is a place to talk about real things of interest to real beekeepers. Join the effort. There is no difficulty understanding my position at any stage, and to suggest there is is just more disruptive behaviour. Try to contribute to discussion of the issues. I've asked you several clear and relevant questions. You could start by addressing those.

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

Mike let's be fair, it's not reasonable to regularly change your position to whatever will win an argument at the time, but if challenged put it down to "learning". I don't think you learned anything just changed your position to whatever was convenient.

The above is a very minor example but it is something you and WLC do a lot, (you not as much as WLC), and in the end stifles any attempt at sensible discussion.

I don't see much learning happening in these types of discussions anyway, where the idea often seems to be to promote a hypothesis, often just assumed, as convincingly as possible, arguing with all comers. But if cornered, sneakily change position, or the subject. Learning comes from working with bees. The other learning that happens on Beesource is when someone often a newbee has a problem and asks for a solution and is given one and can use it.

But a lot of the above discussions turn into over intellectualised claptrap.

What I really wanted was to hear your own thoughts, because that would help me evaluate your remarks and might supply insights into your motivations for belittling my own efforts, and generally obstructing conversation.

Do you actually practice tf beekeeping at all? If so, how do you go about it?

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

Mike let's be fair, it's not reasonable to regularly change your position to whatever will win an argument at the time, but if challenged put it down to "learning". I don't think you learned anything just changed your position to whatever was convenient.

You're not much good at arguing OT are you. A (constructive) argument is a series of exchanges during which inconsistencies between the interlocutors are worked out through a process of question and response. Either one, or both participants learn something in the process - and find either a way to resolve their differences, or perhaps a crystalisation of the reasons they can't.

In that context: whenever you discover something new it entails that the understanding you had before was incomplete. That might not cause a wholesale revision in the way you view things - but it might too.

I'm not going to stop learning just so you can treat my writing over time as 100% consistent.

(As I recall, there was a post a few months back in which you expressed admiration of my 'courage' - or something like that - for changing my position in the light of new information. And now, here you are condemning me for doing exactly the same - perfectly normal - thing! Rather demonstrates what you're up to doesn't it - your usual tricks - anything but the conversation; work to damage the reputation of anyone who challenges your own position.)

As for your accusation that this is something I do often: examples please. On another thread. I'll respond. For the record, that's the first time I've invoked learning as a reason to change my position. Its so obvious I've never felt the need before - frankly I'm astonished to find people who need this stuff to be explained to them.

Lets try the topic with you: how would you evaluate mite resistance in the hypothetical situation that you were trying to raise the (faintly ludicrous) trait of non-honey storing?

If I get a sensible answer to that I'll fall off my chair. Promise. Then I'll make a sensible and polite response to it.

If you continue to block the conversation here I'll push my ignore button. You have a history; one chance to change.

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

How would you evaluate mite resistance in the hypothetical situation that you were trying to raise the (faintly ludicrous) trait of non-honey storing?

If I get a sensible answer to that I'll fall off my chair. Promise.

Mike (UK)

That I was trying to raise? I think you have me confused with someone else.

However since you ask, and at risk of you falling off your chair, I do have an opinion on the matter. Please realise that any energy expended by the hive superorganism on dealing with mites, such as purging infected brood, etc, comes at a cost.

Consider that Apis Cerana, who are very mite tolerant, spend a lot of time grooming, cleaning, etc, and make pretty small honey crops.

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

That I was trying to raise? I think you have me confused with someone else.

Dear Oldtimer,

Perhaps you didn't notice I'd written 'hypothetical' in that sentence?

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

However since you ask, and at risk of you falling off your chair, I do have an opinion on the matter. Please realise that any energy expended by the hive superorganism on dealing with mites, such as purging infected brood, etc, comes at a cost.

I'll agree with that - in principle. However; is there any scientific evidence that such a cost is significant? Note that Marla Spivak has written that bees with raised hygiene levels are no less efficient (at collecting and storing honey). It seems to me very likely that competitive pressures act to reduce any such expenditure, resulting in the most energy-efficient solutions. In those bees that control their mites effectively by 'breeding' for low fecundity it seems entirely plausible that any labour cost is marginal at worst.

These are (mostly) opinions and speculations of course - the Spivak part isn't. So it appears we will need scientific evidence to try to settle the matter - although hearing from other tf beekeepers may well be illuminating too.

Since you raise the position that there is a significant energy cost to mite-management, I hope you'll agree that the onus should be on you to provide up to date high quality information in support of that position.

I hope you'll agree too that should you be unable, or unwilling, to do so, it would be right and proper for you to acknowledge that the position is, in your own understanding, unfounded in science.

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

Consider that Apis Cerana, who are very mite tolerant, spend a lot of time grooming, cleaning, etc, and make pretty small honey crops.

Again I'd appreciate proper evidence. Are we talking about colonies bred to raise production - comparing like with like? Is there an established causal link between honey crops and mite management behaviours in Apis Cerana?

Or is this handy speculation, that has taken on the status of factoid through endless repetition?

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

Mike, actually yes. At least as far as I have seen reported. somewhere around 50% hygenic behavior it begins to cost to much in honey or other production. Not only does honey production fall off but some behaviors actually cost in hive population as well such as brood removal.

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

Originally Posted by Daniel Y

Mike, actually yes. At least as far as I have seen reported. somewhere around 50% hygenic behavior it begins to cost to much in honey or other production. Not only does honey production fall off but some behaviors actually cost in hive population as well such as brood removal.

I've seen the same thing 'reported' endlessly Daniel. What I'm asking is: what is the scientific status of that claim. Its simple enough. What's the proper evidence?

Again, bear in mind, Dr. Marla Spivak, who's worked in this field for donkey's years, has stated unequivically that there is no loss in productivity due to internal mite management.

There are plenty of people who have an interest in promulgating 'reasons' that support a preference for treating. (Chemical manufacturers and their supply chains chiefly, who stand to lose significant amounts of money should tf catch on in a widespread way, and who'd be stupid not to try to defend their interest in a determined manner), but also ordinary especially commercial beekeepers who don't want to risk/can't be bothered/don't see a benefit in working to raise resistance... and seek to justify their position).

Its my view that this particular piece of 'information' is a self-serving myth constantly promulgated by a loose coalition of invested parties. Convince me otherwise.

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

Straight up, I know of no properly done study on it, apart from Spivaks work. So if you want me to convince you Mike sorry won't happen but would never expect to do that anyway. There's a few issues around existing work though, some of which are how hygienic were the bees being at the time, what were the mite levels in the hygienic hives, and what were the mite levels in the non hygienic hives.

Bees that are actually very productive, can have their productivity severely curtailed if they have a heavy mite load, so if they are bees with a mite load that need treating, that can be a bigger issue than hygiene practises.