According to dictionary.goo.ne.jp, this is a Sino-Japanese term with two definitions, the first describing the 18 military arts considered essential to warriors in their day, including skill with the bow, horse riding, spear, sword, swimming, sword-drawing, dagger, jitte/jutte, shuriken, fukumibari (throat needle), glaive, torite (arresting or otherwise aggressive techniques unarmed or with small arms), matchlock rifle, jujutsu, six foot staff, sickle-and-chain, mojiri (polearms used to restrain), and shinobi. The second usage of the term is just as a catch-all for such arts, and the list does appear to vary by source.

In short, I think a historic term like this should put the question of "Ninja vs. Samurai" to rest, at least in that members of the warrior caste couldn't somehow be involved in intelligence.

An interesting detail of this entry was how it wrote shinobi as " 隠". I've also seen "隠形". IIRC, "ninjutsu" as a term is rather new, and "shinobi" is only one of many terms used to describe espionage agents in the warring states period (either Tatsumi Ryu or Katori Shinto Ryu uses "monomi" to describe such teachings).

I bring it up because the tendency to gloss over subtle differences in vocabulary can be problematic in these discussions. For example, there are many terms for unarmed grappling; even in modern Japanese, people may refer to kumiuchi, yawaragi, torite with what is more recently a catch-all term in jujutsu, but there are important semantic differences here, which are reflected in the technical parameters of such skills.

In the same way, asking a very general question about all "ninjutsu" could mean asking many questions about whatever arts might fall under the umbrella of such a term.

Hi DARPAChief.

I think you are right. I understand that Ninja is a modern term used by now-a-days-historians to put into the same place several Ninjutsu-skills because in fact they have differents names as such their specialities. But I also understand that "Ninjutsu" is a more vintage term than "Ninja" is, and indeed was used in their golden times, so historians made a logical conclution: "If all this people with differents skills, do -in some how- the same thing as well as Ninjutsu, then they have to be called as Ninja, that is: people who do Ninjutsu." So that is the origin of the modern term.

In vintage terms I have heard about Hijutsu (秘術) as synonymous of Ninjutsu, when Hijutsu is a kind of alchemy or mistery thing. Maybe this was because the chemical specialty, I really do not know... But I do think that may have originated the esoteric portion that people knows about the concept.

Here, we can see that Takamatsu had three teachers: Mizuta Yoshitaro Todafusa, Ichitani Matsutaro Takakage and finally Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu.

About Toda: The legend says that Toda was a very succesful man: He was a medical doctor and had his own clinic in Kobe. He also owned a Dojo and teached in there. He was a Kenjutsu teacher for the Shogunate in the Military Academy of Nakano, and even Kuki Takei (a Kuki family member) and Takenaka Tetsunoke (the principal student of Jigoro Kano) were his students too. But there are no records of any of this, no confirmation from any third party and even no record of his own name.

Well, by now: Toda Shinryuken Masamtisu never existed.

In the graphic we can see how even the Bujinkan people can not explain the Shindenfudo-ryu single line into the Toda lineage. There are two lines. The first line have: Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu, Togakure-ryu, Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu as his Ninja legacy. And the second line have a single Ryu-ha in it: Shindenfudo-ryu.

By now we know (assume) that Takamatsu made-up Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu and Togakure-ryu. And we know (assume) that Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu never existed or maybe are Hatsumi's made-up fail Ryu-ha. But, what about Shindenfudo-ryu? Well, Masaaki Hatsumi never learned from Takamatsu Toshitsugu but from Ueno Takeshi. So we could substract one Ryu-ha from the Takamatsuden.

This is what the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten from 1978 says about Shindenfudo-ryu (the translation is not mine):

Judge Yata is the founder (of this school). The school continued to
the beginning of Meiji, when 9th generation Yata Onseisai Noriaki
(commonly known as Taito) learned a number of ryu, and went on to
found his own ryu, which he called Shinden Jigan-ryu (note: I also
seen it as Shinden Jigen-ryu); however, this was later changed by
Yata Noriyuki to Shinden Fudo-ryu. In the time of the Meiji
Restoration, he set up the Kusamou Yada Group in Kyoto with his son
Takao, and went on a "business trip" teaching military arts in
Yamato-Totsukawa and elsewhere. After the Restoration, he joined up
with others of the Conservative school of thought and the
Discontented Party in Kurume, Okayama, Totsukawa and elsewhere and
planned to fool the former Nobles and overthrow the Satsuma Clan
Government, but in March of the 4th year of the Meiji Period (1872)
he was detected, caught, and became a lifetime prisoner. He was 50
years old at the time. His pseudonym in those days was called Kunino
Ichiro. As for the lineage, --- Yata Noriaki – Yata Noriyuki ---
(17th Generation) Mabuni Kenwa – Mabuni Kenei – Ueno Takashi.

(By the way, Yata Onsensai Noriaki was the Teacher of Terajima Kuniichihiro, teacher of Barton-Wrigth founder of Bartitsu.)

Nothing about Toda or Takamatsu, and of course, nothing about Hatsumi in this line, but a real something about Ueno Takashi...

Masaaki Hatsumi was a student of Ueno Takashi in times when he (Ueno) already was the Soke of the Takamatsuden. By that time there was not any Togakure-ryu yet. (Togakure-ryu became latter with Hatsumi as a student of Takamatsu. By that time Gyokko-ryu had a Ninpo curricula in their densho.) Well, Hatsumi was given Hamon from the Dojo of Ueno Takashi so he (Hatsumi) lost everything. Even his Shindenfudo-ryu and Asayama-ryu certificates or the rights to say that he study that/there or something a like... Japanese culture stuff. Giri... Then, Hatsumi looked for Takamatsu and started over his training in Takamatsuden with the father of the creature.

Takamatsu passed away in 1972, then Hatsumi claim to be Soke of Togakure-ryu Ninpo. Just that. Only one Ryu-ha. Indeed he made some Tv shows whith his Ryu-ha name on them. OK, he is a real Soke of a new Ryu-ha but he never told this in that way to anybody but told that his Ryu-ha was almost one-thousand-years-old and other stuff related. Ueno Takashi passed away in 1976 but Hatsumi could not do anything yet because he had a Ura Soke behind him: Fukumoto Toshio, wich also was a student of Ueno Takashi. Fukumoto passed away in 1995; then Hatsumi changed everything about his organization and started with his Budo-Taijutsu style. The nine Ryu-ha becomes and that is what we have today.

The real titles are about Jujutsu and Kenpo, but what Hatsumi says he have are Ju-tai-jutsu and Daken-tai-jutsu related. Not big deal, just a modification for to be some appart, so nobody have to ask...

Why I think like this? Because in other matters, this Shindenfudo-ryu story have a Ninja-tail: I discovered that Jinichi Kawakami, who claims to be a Koga-ryu Soke, are giving Shindenfudo-ryu certificates to his european students. There is a spanish guy, Juan Hombre, that is his representative in Europe and South America.

He, as Hatsumi did, changes his Shindenfudo-ryu title, so (as Hatsumi did) Kawakami holds a different style from the real source. Kawakami do not use the term Jujutsu (柔術) but Yawarajutsu (柔術) (same kanji, different pronunciation) and for Kenpo have another term (馗法) that I do not know what it means. I only recognized the "po/ho" (法: method) kanji and got not translation for the other one (馗).

This is the title that he claims he holds: 神傳不動流馗法の柔術

So, I think this Ninja representatives (Hatsumi and Kawakami) had made their own brances of Shindenfudo-ryu changing the style just for aparently be another thing (but the same anyway). I do not think about different brances because every teacher tends to put their on interpretation into their teachings, so that are the true differences between branches: Not the name nor the densho but the teacher in self.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but aside from lineage discrepancies what is the basis of thought for Takamatsu "inventing" the Ryu-ha of Gyokko and Koto? Gyokko Ryu particularly is a pretty solid collection of techniques.

Gyokko style Ichimonji is more compact and combat effective than the typical deep lunging non-sense Stephen Hayes spewed out in the 80's.

Gyokko style Hicho is pretty much exactly like a Muay Thai shin check and can/ is used as such by practitioners who aren't LARPing 40 year olds.

I guess I find it hard to believe that something created in one generation by one person could be as complete as it seems to be. Most Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan individuals would agree that Gyokko Ryu is the backbone of Ninjutsu's unarmed combat skills.

Another thought that came to mind while reading this thread was perhaps it could be a similar situation that Kukishin Ryu seems to have going on. To those unaware of what that situation is, there are three versions of what could be called Kukishin Ryu, one of which belonging to Takamatsu. Supposedly the Kuki family lost a great deal of the densho during the World War and Takamatsu filled in some of the blanks to reconstruct the Ryu yet didn't fully teach it back to the Kuki family because he felt they were foolish for losing something that they should have guarded closely.

My summed up thoughts on the matter: I don't believe it's something he 'created', at the most blanks could have existed and he did his best to fill them with the knowledge acquired through his lifetime.

The shenanigans of this bunch are pretty mind-boggling. I can't even begin to imagine what they think the payoff is for all the convulusion...

Hi DARPAChief.

Well, assuming the onyomi of 馗 we can assume that the pronounciaton of 神傳不動流馗法の柔術 could be something like: "Shindenfudo-ryu Kiho no Yawara Jutsu". I read 柔術 more like "Ju-jutsu" but in the little romaji that Kawakami share in his page he said "Yawara". So...

But the mistery still: What could be 馗法? A kind of alternative term for Koppo or Kenpo, maybe? Maybe could be a kind of mixed term like saying "Kenpo Ju Jutsu" as Daito-ryu do it with their "Aiki-Ju-Jutsu" style. Who knows? Kawakami knows...

I think that if 馗 means something like "road" and 法 means something like "method" then 馗法 could mean something like "rule" or "methodology" perhaps.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but aside from lineage discrepancies what is the basis of thought for Takamatsu "inventing" the Ryu-ha of Gyokko and Koto? Gyokko Ryu particularly is a pretty solid collection of techniques.

Gyokko style Ichimonji is more compact and combat effective than the typical deep lunging non-sense Stephen Hayes spewed out in the 80's.

Gyokko style Hicho is pretty much exactly like a Muay Thai shin check and can/ is used as such by practitioners who aren't LARPing 40 year olds.

I guess I find it hard to believe that something created in one generation by one person could be as complete as it seems to be. Most Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan individuals would agree that Gyokko Ryu is the backbone of Ninjutsu's unarmed combat skills.

Another thought that came to mind while reading this thread was perhaps it could be a similar situation that Kukishin Ryu seems to have going on. To those unaware of what that situation is, there are three versions of what could be called Kukishin Ryu, one of which belonging to Takamatsu. Supposedly the Kuki family lost a great deal of the densho during the World War and Takamatsu filled in some of the blanks to reconstruct the Ryu yet didn't fully teach it back to the Kuki family because he felt they were foolish for losing something that they should have guarded closely.

My summed up thoughts on the matter: I don't believe it's something he 'created', at the most blanks could have existed and he did his best to fill them with the knowledge acquired through his lifetime.

NOPE.

gyokko ryu is 'complete'? then why koto? :tongue:

seriously, if it's complete, then why did sakagami taro (supposedly the founder and a gyokko ryu soke) create koto ryu?

to tell the truth, it can be easy to create a ryu, IF you have a PRIOR good martial arts background. from the examples of koryu I've seen, the have:

1. a set of philosophies/ a philosophy
2. a set of principles(of movement/function/etc) that serve/bring to life those philosophy/ies.

manaka unsui did it (jinen ryu) as did katsunosuke matsuoka (shindo yoshin ryu). if takamatsu had prior experience in other arts (possibly SDFR in kobe and of course kukishin and takagi yoshin)and witnessed firsthand chinese systems, theoretically it can be easy for him to create a system that revolves around certain principles.

but it can never be complete, even if it seems to be. if it is so, then supplementation from yoshin ryu(for grappling) and kukishin(for weapons) would be not a good idea.

But, I have a question: I believe that the name "Chosui" was given from Takamatsu to Ueno. Do you know something about this?

And another question: I believe that "Unsui" means something like " independent seeker of enlightenment", so I believe that this have something to do with the Hatsumi experience. A kind of response to him or something like that. What do you believe about this?

Thank you for posting.A

sorry, all I know is that chosui is the same as kijin chosui ryu, another style that takamatsu taught.

and about the unsui name, you're about a decade too late, manaka-sensei had a 'spotlight' on the e-budo forum years ago. it was better to ask him there.

re:gikan

there was a squabble over this ryu decades ago, word is that hatsumi wasn't the official soke of this and now it's passed on to tanemura. considering the 'coincidences' I've posted before, it does make one think why hatsumi might want to claim this ryu.

Originally Posted by Styygens

It's an unofficial rule here that we can't mention Yamato without a video. In fact, I fear my sad little video of the original artist singing the theme won't be sufficient. W.Rabbit should be along any moment to post a video of the Yamato firing the Wave Motion Gun.

well, if it weren't for the yamato 2199 remake I wouldn't be interested in this, makes me compare this to battlestar galactica.
hatsumi would get more points from me if he compared to gundam instead. and not the ******-**** they peddled this turn of the century. I mean the tomino legend, where bitchslapping (aka the BRIGHT SLAP) was prevalent and the preferred tool for emos, lazybutts, bitches and just about everyone who needs it. that's what most 'kata collectors' need nowadays: a bright slap wake-up call to aliveness.:TrollDad:

well, if it weren't for the yamato 2199 remake I wouldn't be interested in this, makes me compare this to battlestar galactica.

Did you mention BSG?

Originally Posted by baby_cart

hatsumi would get more points from me if he compared to gundam instead. and not the ******-**** they peddled this turn of the century. I mean the tomino legend, where bitchslapping (aka the BRIGHT SLAP) was prevalent and the preferred tool for emos, lazybutts, bitches and just about everyone who needs it. that's what most 'kata collectors' need nowadays: a bright slap wake-up call to aliveness.:TrollDad:

Gundam? meh.

Originally Posted by Gigatron

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but aside from lineage discrepancies what is the basis of thought for Takamatsu "inventing" the Ryu-ha of Gyokko and Koto?

To be honest, I'd been wondering exactly the same thing: On what basis are we questioning the legitimacy of Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, and Shinden Fudo Ryu? But I gave Oniwaban the benefit of the doubt; with so much questionable about this history, there's no reason to take anything at face value. As a result, this has been one of the best Takamatsuden threads in a long time.

Originally Posted by Gigatron

Gyokko Ryu particularly is a pretty solid collection of techniques.

So what? Even if this is undeniably true (and many on the site would disagree), all that means is that it is a solid system, not that the history we've been told is accurate.

Gyokko style Ichimonji is more compact and combat effective than the typical deep lunging non-sense Stephen Hayes spewed out in the 80's.

Watch Out!

Claiming something is "combat effective" on this site is begging for someone to ask you to prove that statement.

Originally Posted by Gigatron

Gyokko style Hicho is pretty much exactly like a Muay Thai shin check and can/ is used as such by practitioners who aren't LARPing 40 year olds.

No, it isn't. In nearly 20-years of training in Booj under many different teachers, I have never been taught to use Hicho as a shin check. Which isn't to say the motion couldn't be used this way, merely that it does not appear to be used this way traditionally. I am not aware of any Gyokko Ryu kata that models this use. If you are, please let me know and I'll compare against my notes and talk to my teachers.

And as a 40-year-old sometimes accused of LARPing, I say to you, "sticks and stones..." :tongue:

Originally Posted by Gigatron

I guess I find it hard to believe that something created in one generation by one person could be as complete as it seems to be. Most Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan individuals would agree that Gyokko Ryu is the backbone of Ninjutsu's unarmed combat skills.

Another thought that came to mind while reading this thread was perhaps it could be a similar situation that Kukishin Ryu seems to have going on. To those unaware of what that situation is, there are three versions of what could be called Kukishin Ryu, one of which belonging to Takamatsu. Supposedly the Kuki family lost a great deal of the densho during the World War and Takamatsu filled in some of the blanks to reconstruct the Ryu yet didn't fully teach it back to the Kuki family because he felt they were foolish for losing something that they should have guarded closely.

My summed up thoughts on the matter: I don't believe it's something he 'created', at the most blanks could have existed and he did his best to fill them with the knowledge acquired through his lifetime.

First, I too have a hard time believing Takamatsu created not one, but several different systems. Why bother? Why not just make one? My suspicion is that he did have a starting point and embellished. The question then is, how much embellishment is there? What were his motives? Why more than one system? Why "ninjutsu"? (I have the romantic idea that he did have a collection of legitimate ninjutsu training methods from somewhere that he revived, expanded and reorganized into Togakure Ryu -- but this is pure and utter speculation on my part.)

Second, even if Takamatsu had a starting point, that doesn't mean the history presented to us is accurate. As other here have suggested, it is equally possible he preserved some Chinese tradition and tacked on a Japanese history.

Third, what about the other two Kukishin systems you mention? Because the Kuki family heads at least one of them, and they take issue with the "Takamatsu as savior" story. I also wonder where this story really started; Takamatsu, Hatsumi, Hayes??? I suspect it is a serious miscommunication of the truth. I also think this example of the "Telephone Game" in which the story gets garbled demonstrates why we need to ask more questions about the Takamatsuden history.

My point? I have a lot more questions than I do answers. And any time I seem to get an answer, I have more questions. Hence the metaphor of the "Takamatsuden Spaghetti"; following one strand just makes a sloppy mess.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but aside from lineage discrepancies what is the basis of thought for Takamatsu "inventing" the Ryu-ha of Gyokko and Koto? Gyokko Ryu particularly is a pretty solid collection of techniques.

Gyokko style Ichimonji is more compact and combat effective than the typical deep lunging non-sense Stephen Hayes spewed out in the 80's.

Gyokko style Hicho is pretty much exactly like a Muay Thai shin check and can/ is used as such by practitioners who aren't LARPing 40 year olds.

I guess I find it hard to believe that something created in one generation by one person could be as complete as it seems to be. Most Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan individuals would agree that Gyokko Ryu is the backbone of Ninjutsu's unarmed combat skills.

Another thought that came to mind while reading this thread was perhaps it could be a similar situation that Kukishin Ryu seems to have going on. To those unaware of what that situation is, there are three versions of what could be called Kukishin Ryu, one of which belonging to Takamatsu. Supposedly the Kuki family lost a great deal of the densho during the World War and Takamatsu filled in some of the blanks to reconstruct the Ryu yet didn't fully teach it back to the Kuki family because he felt they were foolish for losing something that they should have guarded closely.

My summed up thoughts on the matter: I don't believe it's something he 'created', at the most blanks could have existed and he did his best to fill them with the knowledge acquired through his lifetime.

Hi, Gigatron.

I agree with you in that Gyokko-ryu could not be made-up just in one generation. That is because Takamastu was a collector of Densho in times when this documents lost their value doe to Meiji-era changes. Takamatsu also travelled to China and lived there for almost ten years, so he could learned lots of cool stuff there and then put all together with a very good base: Some Densho, some information, some experiences, some point of view, some vision, etc.

In first place I thought that Takamatsu could made-up all Gyokko-ryu but then a friend told that this Ryu-ha can be traced unless to the Momochi family, but then another friend told that Momochi Sandayu is a fictional name and explained the why and the how of that.

I now think that in fact Gyokko-ryu can be a legit Densho that Takamatsu found somewhere and gave into life, maybe with his particular touch, but indeed this Ryu-ha is a very chinese style. This, because Karate is a okinawan nature style, Kenpo is a chinese nature style and Jujutsu is a japanese nature style. So, if you put this with the fact that Takamatsu lived in China for almost ten years you can conclude something like this.

They are lots of old books about Ninjutsu (Koga Ninjutsu) published in early 20th century and obviously Takamatsu had readed them. Maybe the Ninpo part of Gyokko-ryu is the Takamatsuden added to the Gyokko-ryu orginal Densho. That because -as you said- all this Ryu-ha could not to be made-up in just one generation.

But what we still thinking is that Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu and Togakure-ryu are the so very Takamatsuden Ryu-ha with no traceble lineage behind Toshitsugu Takamatsu. And they are very good stuff anyway. It was a well done work, I have to say.

About Kuki: Well, there is a letter from the Kuki family where they say that they did not autorized the Takamatsu version of the Amatsu Tatara and other documents so they are very upset with him. In the same letter they say that they already have their own documents in well care, so they can not valid the reasons that Takamatsu expouse for what he had done. So by what matters to the Kuki family those documents are invalid and -obyiously- not from the Kuki family legacy.

In fact the relationship between Takamatsu and the Kuki family were not the best after his intentions of creating a new branch of Kukishin-ryu based on Ninpo. The Kuki family credentials that Hatsumi holds have the signature of Takamatsu Toshitsugu as a Shihan (or Shihan-ke) but also the signature of Kuki Takaharu as the Soke.

seriously, if it's complete, then why did sakagami taro (supposedly the founder and a gyokko ryu soke) create koto ryu?

to tell the truth, it can be easy to create a ryu, IF you have a PRIOR good martial arts background. from the examples of koryu I've seen, the have:

1. a set of philosophies/ a philosophy
2. a set of principles(of movement/function/etc) that serve/bring to life those philosophy/ies.

manaka unsui did it (jinen ryu) as did katsunosuke matsuoka (shindo yoshin ryu). if takamatsu had prior experience in other arts (possibly SDFR in kobe and of course kukishin and takagi yoshin)and witnessed firsthand chinese systems, theoretically it can be easy for him to create a system that revolves around certain principles.

but it can never be complete, even if it seems to be. if it is so, then supplementation from yoshin ryu(for grappling) and kukishin(for weapons) would be not a good idea.

Hi baby_cart.

Well, I think that Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu are different because the vision, the strategy and the purpose of each one. I mean, Gyokko-ryu is more like circle, out-side-tactics, and more elaborated conclusions but Koto-ryu is more straight, in-side-tactics, and more fast conclusions.

By other side, Gyokko-ryu is about Kosshijutsu, a kind of Kenpo where you use your bones for hitting muscles and nervs, and Koto-ryu is Koppo (jutsu) a kind of Kenpo where you are looking for bone-and-joints breacking.

I think about this as if you have two fire arms: A rifle and a gun. Both are fire arms, but each one have their own purpose and utility.

It is said that Koto-ryu become from Gyokko-ryu so we can think that is because a kind of evolution concept: more fast, more direct, more effectived, perhaps.

For me: Gyokko-ryu is more like a girl and Koto-ryu is more like a boy.

About what could be the Ryu-ha recipe for the Takamatsuden soup, well: lots of old densho, experience, chinese knowledge, some vision, good blending skills, etc.