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Did Jesus forsee his early death?

Hello---here s a simple question to chew on: Did Jesus Forsee His Early Death? Many of Jesus s teachings were couched in obscure parables and opaque

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, Jul 1, 1998

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Hello---here's a simple question to chew on:

Did Jesus Forsee His Early Death?

Many of Jesus's teachings were couched in obscure parables and opaque
statements, such as the parables of the yeast in the flour or the treasure in
the field.

In the past I did not tell you the things about which you asked me then. Now
I
am willing to tell them, but you are not seeking them.
� Thomas 92:2 (Funk & Hoover)

Also, the four gospels are full of premonitions of crucificixion and its
aftermath. But what was Jesus's own actual perspective on this matter? How are
the two issues related?

Several possible arguments come to mind:

1. The times were known to be dangerous, and the authorities tended to be
ruthless in exterminating those whom they considered seditious. Thus any
prudent evangelist would not speak too plainly. John the Baptist spoke about
putting the axe to the roots of the tree, and look at what happened to him!
The caution reflected in much of Jesus's teaching suggests that he was trying
to avoid early martyrdom.

2. Some of Jesus's pronouncements might be considered obscure beyond the
needs of caution. According to the Jesus Seminar---whom I do not question on
this matter---the writers of the four gospels felt compelled to supplement
Jesus's version of many parables with explanations, for the more explicit
guidance of the Jesus movement. Thus, at his death, Jesus left his followers
somewhat in the dark.

3. Jesus did call for a degree of coherence of style among his disciples,
instructing them how to dress and speak. If he had the slightest inclination
toward founding an organization, why did he speak so darkly? It's all very
well for Jesus to say that the last will be first and the first will be last,
but how effective would such statements be, coming from the mouth of an
isolated wandering disciple? Did Jesus anticipate living many years longer
than he did, and having the opportunity to give his disciples more explicit
teachings?

Looking for enlightenment---

Lee A. Young

Jim West

... What do you mean by early? I will drop off the early and just address- did Jesus foresee his death. Yup, he did. Anyone who riled the Romans, the priests,

What do you mean by early?
I will drop off the early and just address- did Jesus foresee his death.
Yup, he did. Anyone who riled the Romans, the priests, and the pharisees
was on a one way trip to death. Its hard to imagine anyone acting as Jesus
did (cleansing the temple) and thinking that they could get away with it.

>
> Many of Jesus's teachings were couched in obscure parables and opaque
>statements, such as the parables of the yeast in the flour or the treasure in
>the field.
>

Not so opaque for a palestinian peasant. Only to postmodern consumerisitic
westerners.

> In the past I did not tell you the things about which you asked me then. Now
>I
> am willing to tell them, but you are not seeking them.
>  Thomas 92:2 (Funk & Hoover)
>
> Also, the four gospels are full of premonitions of crucificixion and its
>aftermath. But what was Jesus's own actual perspective on this matter? How are
>the two issues related?
>
> Several possible arguments come to mind:
>
> 1. The times were known to be dangerous, and the authorities tended to be
>ruthless in exterminating those whom they considered seditious. Thus any
>prudent evangelist would not speak too plainly. John the Baptist spoke about
>putting the axe to the roots of the tree, and look at what happened to him!
>The caution reflected in much of Jesus's teaching suggests that he was trying
>to avoid early martyrdom.

Not at all. Further, on the whole notion that the era was dangerous and
filled with turmoil, I would recommend the new book by J. McLaren,
"Turbulent Times?". In this book J. examines the (false!) notion that
Palestine was a powder keg ready to explode.

>
> 2. Some of Jesus's pronouncements might be considered obscure beyond the
>needs of caution. According to the Jesus Seminar---whom I do not question on
>this matter---the writers of the four gospels felt compelled to supplement
>Jesus's version of many parables with explanations, for the more explicit
>guidance of the Jesus movement. Thus, at his death, Jesus left his followers
>somewhat in the dark.
>

No- I think what the Seminar means is that the sayings of Jesus were
redacted by later Christians in order to make them applicable to their own
communities- thus making them clearer, not obscuring them. This does not
mean, however, that they were not clear in the first place- it only means
that as times changed the need arose to clarify what had become unclear.

> 3. Jesus did call for a degree of coherence of style among his disciples,
>instructing them how to dress and speak. If he had the slightest inclination
>toward founding an organization, why did he speak so darkly? It's all very
>well for Jesus to say that the last will be first and the first will be last,
>but how effective would such statements be, coming from the mouth of an
>isolated wandering disciple? Did Jesus anticipate living many years longer
>than he did, and having the opportunity to give his disciples more explicit
>teachings?
>

See Crossan's discussion of the householders and the itinerants in either
his "Historical Jesus" or his "Birth of Christianity". He notes the paradox
inherent in calling people to abandon stuff and the need for stuff to
sustain the community!