Small Ball?

It looks at this season's experiment with "small ball" while noting that in the second round of the play-offs, only two teams that played a lot of it are still in the race

"That leaves New York and Miami as the only true small-ball outliers left, and the Heat have the benefit of the world's greatest player, a totally unique multipositional cyborg who defies almost everything we know about basketball players. The playoffs have reinforced two very basic NBA realities we sometimes forget in anointing this the Era of Small Ball:

1. Size is really important, at all positions. I think Jarrett Jack just hit another midrange pull-up over Ty Lawson.

2. A big guy who can actually play both ends of the floor at a B-plus level is the most valuable non-superstar commodity in the league. This is why Josh Smith is getting a max deal this summer, no matter how distasteful you might find it. This is why Al Horford, earning a flat $12 million per season through 2015-16, is rising up through the informal "best contract in the NBA" rankings every league exec keeps in his head. It's why David West is underpaid, even if the real reason he's underpaid is because he signed his current deal while recovering from an ACL tear. It's why Tyson Chandler, when healthy, is easily worth his $14 million annual salary, even though dunking on pick-and-rolls constitutes 80 percent of his offensive game."

The Raptors have two very competent big men, in JV and Amir. I know many here don't think Amir is a starting caliber PF, but I would say he is definitely a B-plus level big.

"If teams are indeed going small more often, it's not because they've figured out that small ball is better in some objective, all-encompassing way. It's because they've realized playing small is better for teams who simply don't have enough competent big men."

This article would tend to support those RR members who are arguing for another dependable big to fit into the rotation. I like Grey, but definitely not a B-plus big because of he lack of speed and mobility compared to other bench bigs he must play against.

*Just to add that I think this also gives the Raps a lot of flexibility to build that 3-man rotation. Maybe they want another hustling defender like Amir. Maybe they want a stretch 4. Maybe they want another post player with a bit of range to run a Princeton style offense.

Lots of options, because I think JV projects to be able to anchor any big man unit. I think he's an A- at worst....In my mind, no center in the league today is an A+. Howard (when healthy) and Gasol are As. I just can't call either an A+ when in my mind, that'd be legends like Hakeem, Kareem, Shaq, Sabonis, etc....I just don't think anyone these days shows the level of dominance these guys had.

Do I think JV can be that? Maybe. He has a small shot. He has a good shot at the A level though. Again, he can be that anchor up front. The big problem is even if the big rotation is set, where is that other elite talent the Raps will need to have any hopes at contending? Right now there is none. If the Raps get another B+ big, it doesn't change that there is no other potential A or higher aside from JV. I don't consider Gay as that guy. He's an A- at best.

I am, and have been for some time, in complete agreement with this. It's the small ball of Lebron and on occassion Durant, which, in combination with the lack of quality big men, has lead to this so called change. It has not so much been an evolution in basketball, but more a lack of big man good enough to compete with the little guys. We now have one of those potential B+ players on both sides of the floor and it's the brightest spot on our team because that's what you need to compete with the big boys if you don't have a Lebron.

I am, and have been for some time, in complete agreement with this. It's the small ball of Lebron and on occassion Durant, which, in combination with the lack of quality big men, has lead to this so called change. It has not so much been an evolution in basketball, but more a lack of big man good enough to compete with the little guys. We now have one of those potential B+ players on both sides of the floor and it's the brightest spot on our team because that's what you need to compete with the big boys if you don't have a Lebron.

Here is a question for you.

How much of this is a lack of good big man (which has arguably always existed in the NBA) as opposed to a GM/executives/organizations just following 'the crowd'? ie. "So many teams are going small, I better start matching them" philosophy, instead of "so many teams are going small, I'm going to take advantage of this and go big too eat them alive"?

One thing I've learned over the years is most people in an industry aren't any smarter than you or I or anyone else. (Although they do learn some of the nuances and details we may not know because of their experience). But what they do tend to do well is not shake up the generally accepted philosophy, and/or are 'born' into an industry. (This is why the true geniuses don't get appreciated until after their done tearing up their industry, and even then the old guard will usually chalk it up to chance or luck - whether its a great basketball team or building a multi-national corporation). As such when people don't follow the crowd they are viewed as foolish, reckless or a 'black sheep not to be trusted' even if it makes complete sense (see anyone who warned housing prices couldn't go up forever pre-2007, or anyone who warned investing in a .com business that weren't actually producing anything yet)

Where does Acy fit in all this? He only got play time when the fate of the Raps was sealed but he has shown the mobility and potential (small "p" potential, but it's still there) to be a respectable 3rd big. In a perfect world the Raps get that B+/- big, and a backup 1. But the Raptor front office is far from perfect.

I would be highly disappointed if anyone thought small ball is a legit strategy for this roster for more than a few minutes a game. That is also the reason why I feel the next backup PG has to be taller than the current group of point guards who are average person size.

small ball is only being prominent because of the lack of true tall beasts in the current nba landscape. dwight howard is still the best big man in the league but im sure most of you were aware of his lackluster season. yet despite that, when compared to all the other bigs, you can he is still the best moving, best scoring big man there is.

because of the lack of inside presence, naturally teams would have to load up on talented wings. some teams have found more success with their players shooting a high % than others, and these are the teams you see in the playoffs. then you have other teams like memphis and chicago, which he talks about in that article, but i think he completely blows over to get his point across.

also durant and lebron is not small ball. they can dribble around the court like small ball, but durant is freaking huge and lebron has a ridiculous vertical. theres no such thing as putting a 'small wing' on durant and lebron. you put the tallest player with the most agile legs you can and hope for the best.

this is why i believe raptors have had it completely wrong for the past 7 years, focusing almost entirely on wing shooting. BC keeps wasting draft picks by drafting forwards but giving them little possession time, and especially down the stretch. people are now looking at the success memphis is having with gasol-zbo. that could have been a similar rotation of amir-davis-jv with the raptors.

A brief article on the hangtime blog showing the success some teams are having with small ball lineups. Interesting note that OKC's "small" lineup of Jackson, Fisher, Martin, Durant, and Collison has been the best offensive and defensive lineup of the playoffs. As the author noted, the sample sizes are quite small, so it will be interesting to see if this trend holds up throughout the playoffs. The whole idea of small ball, in my opinion, is more about match-ups than it is about a commitment to a system.

...The whole idea of small ball, in my opinion, is more about match-ups than it is about a commitment to a system.

Not so sure. Certainly some teams have the ability to throw a small line-up out there without hurting themselves defensively. But I think that only those teams with uber-athletic and strong fours who can defend another teams 5, and who also have a stretch 3. Using OKC's line-up as an example speaks to their ability and the lack of "good" big men.

I think a couple of years of playing together will turn Amir and JV into a lockdown defensive unit. They are both quick enough to provide help defense. then it's all about the teams ability to defend the 3 point shot and the long 2 (which they would want other teams to take actually). Gay, Fields and Lowry are all quick enough to provide good 3 pt defense, if they can get their acts together.

Not so sure. Certainly some teams have the ability to throw a small line-up out there without hurting themselves defensively. But I think that only those teams with uber-athletic and strong fours who can defend another teams 5, and who also have a stretch 3. Using OKC's line-up as an example speaks to their ability and the lack of "good" big men.

I think a couple of years of playing together will turn Amir and JV into a lockdown defensive unit. They are both quick enough to provide help defense. then it's all about the teams ability to defend the 3 point shot and the long 2 (which they would want other teams to take actually). Gay, Fields and Lowry are all quick enough to provide good 3 pt defense, if they can get their acts together.

I just don't know of any teams that are developed and put together to play small ball. And like phez mentioned above, is having Durant or Lebron (at the 4 I assume) really going small? I think teams implement small ball when they think the quickness and athleticism will give them an advantage, but not as an overall strategy. OKC isn't built to play small, but they will toss out that lineup if they feel it will give them an advantage.

And the Raps have some small ball lineup options that would be interesting to watch. Amir, Gay, fields, demar, lowry or amir, gay, derozan, ross, lowry or amir, gay, fields, ross, lowry could all be fun to watch and effective against the appropriate lineup. I would consider these small ball lineups.

I guess there would be disagreement as to what a small ball lineup is. For example, the Raps lineups above I would consider small because of Amir at the 5 and Rudy at the 4. Swap JV with Amir, however, and I would not consider those lineups to be small, even though Gay is at the 4. Maybe it's more about the style of play than the size of the "big" men. Utah has two undersized big men (arguably) in Jefferson at the 5 and Millsap at the 4, but they do not play undersized. They aren't athletic and mobile enough to play a fast paced "small" ball game.

So I'll ask, what is a small ball line-up, or what constitutes playing a small ball game?

I think we've got the peronnel to make "small ball" an effective strategy for short stretches during games. Landy and Rudy can both slide down to the 4. Hell, we saw a lot of Alan Anderson at the 4 this past season. With the glut of wing players on the roster, it's a good technique to get guys minutes and give opposing coaches another look to plan for.

Small ball or not, we need improved 3pt shooting out of Landy, Rudy, Demar and Andrea. Demar showed signs of life last year by hitting mid-range shots at a reliable clip. There is hope for Landry given the off season to work out the kinks after his surgery. Rudy and Andrea have badly tanked in the past 1-2 years, so hoping for a turnaround there is a bit more wishful thinking that real hope.

Small ball or not, we need the ball wizzing around a step ahead of the defense. That means reliable offensive positioning and lightning quick decision making. We have challenges to overcome before achieving these qualities, including: poor BBIQ from the rooks and especially from Andrea, hero-ball antics from Kyle and Rudy, confidence sometimes seems like an issue for Landy and Demar.

So, yes, Small Ball is an option for us to use as a change-of-pace tactic. But regardless of the strategy, what we really need is our coaching staff to address to shooting and ball movement issues.

& LOL @ "where does Acy fit in?" He fits in a suit on the bench, or in the D League, or in Europe if BC didn't draft him.

& LOL @ "where does Acy fit in?" He fits in a suit on the bench, or in the D League, or in Europe if BC didn't draft him.

Unless something dramatically changes Acy will be in the NBA longer than Bargnani. Pretty sure you've never watched a D League game so no point me standing up for Q, but the fact you mention Bargnani so much in your response, as if the guy should be a Raptor next year sort of disqualifies your comment doesn't it? Improved 3pt shooting from Andrea? Bargnani needs to do a hell of a lot more than shoot well to have any value. Acy brings 2 talents that are respected commodities in the NBA: rebounding and hustle. The fact he can actually shoot is mere bonus. Please tell me a skill Andrea has that can't be shot down without a quick link to Wages of Wins. Get outta here!

I don't think we should be so quick to assume Andrea is gone before next season. Nobody can come up with a reasonable destination, and everyone agrees the amnesty isn't going to him. I'll go so far as to say its more likely than not (55/45) that he'll still be here... a tough pill to swallow for Raps fans. Andrea's on the team until we hear otherwise. He's our 2nd highest paid player, so at this point I think it's more silly to proceed without considering him.

Acy is way undersized and outclassed on the NBA floor. He's not strong enough to fight for space with NBA bigs, he's not skilled or quick enough to handle NBA wings or "small ball 4s". He's the guy that's a great college player but just cant transfer once he's playing competition above the level of the Big 12. I love his hustle as much as anybody, and I'll be rooting for him to overachieve, but it's less than likely he'll ever be more than an end of bench guy. If we didn't take him, I'm not convinced he's even in the NBA today.

Back to Andrea... his shooting is the crux of his entire game. When his shot is falling, he's making contributions on offence, he's got his head in the game, and he's a useful player. We can't pretend we've never seen this since he's been here. He fell off a cliff this past season, but there's a guy that can play in the NBA somewhere in him, we've witnessed it. Never witnessed it with Quincy Acy.

I love this footnote... it's about how Chandler's offense is primarily a roll/cut, catch, dunk offense...

That's not an insult. A big guy who can catch and finish on pick-and-rolls from anyplace inside the foul line is enormously valuable, especially one who can hit 75 percent of his foul shots. Chandler sucks in an entire opposing defense simply by cutting down the paint, because that defense knows he can finish lob passes and nail free throws at a rate that takes Hack-a-Shaq off the table. You can count on one hand the number of 7-footers in the NBA who can match Chandler's speed, jumping ability, hand-eye coordination, and physicality. Like, imagine Kendrick Perkins trying to jump from the dotted line, catch the ball in traffic, and dunk it explosively in one motion. The other 20 percent of Chandler's game, by the way, is tipping out offensive rebounds.

"We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

I don't think we should be so quick to assume Andrea is gone before next season. Nobody can come up with a reasonable destination, and everyone agrees the amnesty isn't going to him. I'll go so far as to say its more likely than not (55/45) that he'll still be here... a tough pill to swallow for Raps fans. Andrea's on the team until we hear otherwise. He's our 2nd highest paid player, so at this point I think it's more silly to proceed without considering him.

Acy is way undersized and outclassed on the NBA floor. He's not strong enough to fight for space with NBA bigs, he's not skilled or quick enough to handle NBA wings or "small ball 4s". He's the guy that's a great college player but just cant transfer once he's playing competition above the level of the Big 12. I love his hustle as much as anybody, and I'll be rooting for him to overachieve, but it's less than likely he'll ever be more than an end of bench guy. If we didn't take him, I'm not convinced he's even in the NBA today.

Back to Andrea... his shooting is the crux of his entire game. When his shot is falling, he's making contributions on offence, he's got his head in the game, and he's a useful player. We can't pretend we've never seen this since he's been here. He fell off a cliff this past season, but there's a guy that can play in the NBA somewhere in him, we've witnessed it. Never witnessed it with Quincy Acy.

None of what you state debates my points but for the sake of my personal boredom I'll bite.

1. If the stated goal of the Raptors is to make the playoffs, Bargnani needs to sit on the bench in a suit. That's what analytics suggests. That's what basic +/- statistics suggest, win shares, etc. I don't care who's getting paid what. If the stated goal is the playoffs then play for the playoffs. If Bargnani wants to stay in Italy while whoever the GM is tries to move him, let him.

2. How can you say Acy was outclassed? He was a rookie who didn't get play time until the season was decided and he still appeared passable for a rookie in comparison to the dough eyed moments Ross slipped into (Not trying to diss Ross here). Again, you clearly don't watch D League games so debating you on his potential is impossible-- you've seen him a bit in college and have assumed he hasn't developed since then. Furthermore:

If you include guys like Stackhouse who is 6-6 and often plays the 4 off the bench most PFs are actually closer to 6-8 or 6-9 than 6-10. To be coordinated enough, strong enough and fast enough to play power forward at 6-10 is extremely impressive. That's why guys like Bosh, Aldridge, Nowitzki are special players. The reality is that to be a PF in the NBA Acy may need to add 10lbs, but to suggest he is dramatically out sized demonstrates how little you actually paid attention to the players around him.

3. Andrea is historically bad at rebounding. By metrics he is the worst rebounder in the history of the NBA over 6-10. That is a fact. Andrea will never be the rebounder Acy is. His defensive numbers are almost as bad as his rebounding numbers. Again, he will never be the defender Acy is now. His offensive numbers are buoyed by a high usage rate. Statistically, he is actually a poor shooter. I never said Acy was going to be a starter, a star, a stud. But there is a place in the league for a person with as much hustle as Q. If all he does is make some team's practices better he will find a spot on an NBA roster.

What skill does Andrea have that makes you think in 2 years when this contract ends teams will offer contracts to a 7 footer who refuses to play center, can't defend outside the post, has no help defense skills, is addicted to low percentage shots, and has shown no improvement his whole time in the NBA?

On December 10th, Andrea Bargnani, the team’s leading scorer for the past two years, suffered an injury. Since that time, Bargnani has not played a single NBA minute, and his team has gone 10-6 without him. This is not really surprising, as Bargnani was “leading” the league in negative wins — at -2.3 — when he went out.

Acy is only averaging 2.9 points and 2.0 rebounds in eight minutes per game this season, but he is shooting 55.2 percent from the field and has an impressive offensive rating of 128 points produced per 100 possessions. If someone believes Acy could develop into a player who matched his per 36 minute production of 13.2 points, 9.0 rebounds, 1.7 steals and 1.7 blocks, then the Raptors will have showcased a second round pick that could be considered a sweetener in a future trade

And why do I keep bringing up his time in the DLeague? Because he was a stud there:

Acy has been a solid contributor for the Jam in the D-League. In 11 games, Acy has scored in double-digits 10 times, and he has started in 8 games for the team. It is a unique situation for him in Bakersfield, the team has been at the top of the NBA D-League standings for the majority of the season, and Acy has been a large reason for their success. Having a double-double guy like Acy, who brings a winning attitude to match his intense and impressive play, has been a luxury for the Jam.

I'm not saying that all translates to the NBA BUT how can we debate whether his skills translate to the NBA if you never watched a single D League game he played in?

In the visitors locker room after the game, Bulls forward Taj Gibson talked with frontcourt partner Joakim Noah about Acy's aggressiveness. During the game with play paused for free throws, Gibson showed the rookie some love.

"Way to earn your minutes," Gibson said to Acy. "Just keep playing hard, you're going to stay on the court and find your way into the rotation."

None of what you state debates my points but for the sake of my personal boredom I'll bite.

1. If the stated goal of the Raptors is to make the playoffs, Bargnani needs to sit on the bench in a suit. That's what analytics suggests. That's what basic +/- statistics suggest, win shares, etc. I don't care who's getting paid what. If the stated goal is the playoffs then play for the playoffs. If Bargnani wants to stay in Italy while whoever the GM is tries to move him, let him.

2. How can you say Acy was outclassed? He was a rookie who didn't get play time until the season was decided and he still appeared passable for a rookie in comparison to the dough eyed moments Ross slipped into (Not trying to diss Ross here). Again, you clearly don't watch D League games so debating you on his potential is impossible-- you've seen him a bit in college and have assumed he hasn't developed since then. Furthermore:

If you include guys like Stackhouse who is 6-6 and often plays the 4 off the bench most PFs are actually closer to 6-8 or 6-9 than 6-10. To be coordinated enough, strong enough and fast enough to play power forward at 6-10 is extremely impressive. That's why guys like Bosh, Aldridge, Nowitzki are special players. The reality is that to be a PF in the NBA Acy may need to add 10lbs, but to suggest he is dramatically out sized demonstrates how little you actually paid attention to the players around him.

3. Andrea is historically bad at rebounding. By metrics he is the worst rebounder in the history of the NBA over 6-10. That is a fact. Andrea will never be the rebounder Acy is. His defensive numbers are almost as bad as his rebounding numbers. Again, he will never be the defender Acy is now. His offensive numbers are buoyed by a high usage rate. Statistically, he is actually a poor shooter. I never said Acy was going to be a starter, a star, a stud. But there is a place in the league for a person with as much hustle as Q. If all he does is make some team's practices better he will find a spot on an NBA roster.

What skill does Andrea have that makes you think in 2 years when this contract ends teams will offer contracts to a 7 footer who refuses to play center, can't defend outside the post, has no help defense skills, is addicted to low percentage shots, and has shown no improvement his whole time in the NBA?

That's a hell of a post, Blackjitsu. Thanks for putting in the effort and time, kudos. It's great to see a raps repub member filling out an argument with legit point instead of mindlessly sticking to their opinion then offering to "agree to disagree".

You're right that it's unfair to say Acy was outclassed because he's just a rookie. He deserves the benefit of the doubt until he gets a little more experience. I think it's still worth citing that Acy is smaller than every undersized big you listed. He's significantly undersized and it's a disadvantage. I have no doubt he does look great in the D league, where he can make up for that size disadvantage more easily due to decreased competition levels. Similar to how he was great versus lesser competition in the Big 12.

Haslem - 6-8 235lbs - Acy doesnt have the outside shot that makes Haslem more valuable
R. Evans - 6-8 245lbs - Acy doesnt have the size to hold interior position like Evans can
Diaw - 6-8 235lbs - Acy's not nearly as skilled. Daiw's got soft hands around the rim and his an outstanding passer, Acy lacks those qualities.
T. Young 6-8 235 lbs - Young has a good handle and face-up game, Acy does not.
Farried - 6-8 225lbs - Probably the best match for Acy's skill set and best-case-scenario for Acy's development.
Millsap - 6-8 253lbs - Acy can't handle or shoot like Milsap
Maxiell- 6-7 260lbs - Similar to Evans, Acy doesn't have the size to hold position like Maxiell.

It's not inconceivable that Acy could add 20-30 pounds and get that Evans/Maxiell-like girth. Maybe he could add an outside shot or face-up game like Haslem. I think it's fair to say he's never going to be as skilled as Millsap, Diaw or Young.

Farried's shown that he's got that once-or-twice-a-decade nose for the ball. He's got a tiny bit of Rodman in him that way. He's special. Maybe Acy could develop that, too, but I don't think we can say it's likely.

The point stands that Acy is missing major pieces that makes each undersized player you listed viable NBA role players. Without those qualities, I have doubts there is a place for him in an NBA rotation. And he's still smaller than all of them.

You're well constructed argument has convinced me to come off my stance that he doesn't deserve a chance in the league, but to ask "how does Acy fit in?" when thinking about big-picture team direction/strategy questions is misguided because he's an end-of-bench guy with a marginal chance to improve to a rotation player (best case scenario).

Again, great post. Thanks. I want to keep saying that because it's so rare to get somebody astutely defending a position, as you have.