Really? You wouldn't identify as a rogue if you couldn't cheap shot three times in a row? Because for the first 4 or 5 years of the game, before shadowdance was a thing, you couldn't spam cheap/garrote unless you blew vanish, prep vanish. The lack of cooldown wasnt an issue because it couldn't be used repeatedly, but with dance and subterfuge they're literally spammed

I don't think Cloak and Dagger is the problem. Subterfuge is the problem. That talent is literally the most absurd thing I have ever seen in this game.

It flattens rogue skill cap to a ridiculous degree. Doesn't matter how shitty you are as a rogue, you can get your opener off. Used to be if you were better than the rogue you could stop openers (and good rogues could still get one). Not anymore!

Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

Make subterfuge- for 3 seconds after opening can use stealth abilities just not make you invisible. People should stop crying about rogues so obnoxious its not s11 can drop a rogue in a stun. Just wait till 5.3 and stfu

for the first 50 seconds of the match, you've controlled EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF THEIR TEAM for an unDR'd 12-16 seconds(almost 30% of the game). yes, cloak and dagger+subterfuge are the main culprits to blame in the creation of this. However, if you give garrote or cheapshot a 3 second cooldown, it doesn't seem completely unbalanced. I honestly find the talents interesting because they change the nature of how openers work for rogues whereas garrote and cheapshot have been needing this nerf for a long time.

Its just absurdly frustrating the way subterfuge currently works, and the gameplay it promotes. Rogues spend the entire game doing nothing but trying to get restealths..

You realize this is how the class SHOULD be played right/? you shouldnt just mongo at people the entire game. Even in S11 this was the best playstyle people just had the gear to avoid using it. The arguement earlier about not knowing what spells arent being used isnt valid either, if the rogue pops blades you can hear it. It has a sound effect try turning game sound on instead of being so relient on AddOns or being completely oblivious.

how is someone completely oblivious of not being able to tell if a class has a buff because they are invisibly attacking you (you can't see the buff). they should make subterfuge make you unable to be targeted, rather than invisible. claiming game sound is a crutch.

There are a ton of potentially overpowered abilities in the game. Rogues took several nerfs, rogue partner classes took several nerfs and rogues are probably hit more than any other class by the PvP Power nerf.

The abilitiy was obviously not over the top in 5.1 when Subterfuge, the exact same talent, wasn't taken by many of the highest rated rogues.

If all special snowflakes are removed the game becomes boring. And if Subterfuge is gone we will have the dance in the opener, probably with Marked for Death and a nearly full energy bar due to Shadow Focus. Rogues will have to rely on extremely strong dances and if they can't force the healer trinket in the opener the game is lost.

Subterfuge and Shuriken Toss make the burst smaller, divide it instead of creating these 7 seconds of doom every minute. Subterfuge opens up new options with restealths and Shuriken Toss gives options to deal damage while being kited. Like this the class has a solid toolkit. I doubt you will enjoy playing against rogues that turtle for 50 seconds, run around pillars and then go out with all cooldowns and procs. This is already a playstyle that is shitty but effective and any changes to these talents will emphazize that playstyle even more.

Let 5.3 play out for a bit and I'm pretty confident that the nerfs were big enough (especially when looking at the hunter and spriest nerfs that came along). If rogues should still be over the top, Subterfuge can be tuned down.

But one more time for everyone: 5.1 rogues were considered to be bad. They had Subterfuge back then.

But one more time for everyone: 5.1 rogues were considered to be bad. They had Subterfuge back then.

Not entirely disagreeing, but that isn't the best argument. 5.1 warlocks were considered to be bad when they had Blood Fear. Does that mean it should have been left unchanged?

You didn't have C&D in 5.1, and it's obviously the combination of the two that can be a little ridiculous at times. Prep also wasn't baseline, Cloak was a longer CD, and Vanish was 3 minutes for a while. This led to less re-stealths throughout a game, so Subterfuge wasn't as appealing.

All those things aside, you just plain didn't see many rogues on the ladder due to the influx of KFCs. It was really hard to judge any of the rogue talents. Some of the biggest buffs to rogues in 5.2 were the nerfs to warriors.

Not entirely disagreeing, but that isn't the best argument. 5.1 warlocks were considered to be bad when they had Blood Fear. Does that mean it should have been left unchanged?

You didn't have C&D in 5.1, and it's obviously the combination of the two that can be a little ridiculous at times. Prep also wasn't baseline, Cloak was a longer CD, and Vanish was 3 minutes for a while. This led to less re-stealths throughout a game, so Subterfuge wasn't as appealing.

All those things aside, you just plain didn't see many rogues on the ladder due to the influx of KFCs. It was really hard to judge any of the rogue talents. Some of the biggest buffs to rogues in 5.2 were the nerfs to warriors.

And 5.3 will be a nerf to 1 of the most seen comps on the ladder rps so will not see as many rogues again.No reason for a hunter to play thug over beastcleave so people should take a chill pill and see how it plays out when 5.3 hits.

There are a ton of potentially overpowered abilities in the game. Rogues took several nerfs, rogue partner classes took several nerfs and rogues are probably hit more than any other class by the PvP Power nerf.

The abilitiy was obviously not over the top in 5.1 when Subterfuge, the exact same talent, wasn't taken by many of the highest rated rogues.

If all special snowflakes are removed the game becomes boring. And if Subterfuge is gone we will have the dance in the opener, probably with Marked for Death and a nearly full energy bar due to Shadow Focus. Rogues will have to rely on extremely strong dances and if they can't force the healer trinket in the opener the game is lost.

Subterfuge and Shuriken Toss make the burst smaller, divide it instead of creating these 7 seconds of doom every minute. Subterfuge opens up new options with restealths and Shuriken Toss gives options to deal damage while being kited. Like this the class has a solid toolkit. I doubt you will enjoy playing against rogues that turtle for 50 seconds, run around pillars and then go out with all cooldowns and procs. This is already a playstyle that is shitty but effective and any changes to these talents will emphazize that playstyle even more.

Let 5.3 play out for a bit and I'm pretty confident that the nerfs were big enough (especially when looking at the hunter and spriest nerfs that came along). If rogues should still be over the top, Subterfuge can be tuned down.

But one more time for everyone: 5.1 rogues were considered to be bad. They had Subterfuge back then.

Not often I agree with someone else on every point, but I have to say; Spot on.

The argument that an ability is fine because it has existed for a while is so dumb and flawed it's unreal. Blood Horror is a pretty good example at that as was stated above. Rogues atm deal unreasonable damage during their burst window, but that's okay I think because it's all they've got (no sustained whatsoever). The problem however is that you can't even see if the rogue is popping CDs in the opener due to this talent (well beside the fact your partner or yourself is dropping to 10% instantly ). Also it really dumbs down the class and gameplay - There's no requirement for the healer to cordinate a restealth with a shield/dispell on dots. If you leave combat, you just stealth and don't give a shit. It's pretty much pointless trying to prevent a rogue from restealthing these days.

Braindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

If you guys think its dumb that rogue go for restealths all game then i ask you to play a rogue for a bit. We flop in a stun and the Bulk of our damage comes from [Find Weakness+Master of Subtlety] . Rogues run off to get a restealth because we do the lowest damage in the game without find weakness up. Its literally laughable. Everyone goes for restealths because that's what rogues NEED to do to win.. Until they shift some of our damage away from findweakness windows, we will be going for a re all game.

There are a ton of potentially overpowered abilities in the game. Rogues took several nerfs, rogue partner classes took several nerfs and rogues are probably hit more than any other class by the PvP Power nerf.

The abilitiy was obviously not over the top in 5.1 when Subterfuge, the exact same talent, wasn't taken by many of the highest rated rogues.

If all special snowflakes are removed the game becomes boring. And if Subterfuge is gone we will have the dance in the opener, probably with Marked for Death and a nearly full energy bar due to Shadow Focus. Rogues will have to rely on extremely strong dances and if they can't force the healer trinket in the opener the game is lost.

Subterfuge and Shuriken Toss make the burst smaller, divide it instead of creating these 7 seconds of doom every minute. Subterfuge opens up new options with restealths and Shuriken Toss gives options to deal damage while being kited. Like this the class has a solid toolkit. I doubt you will enjoy playing against rogues that turtle for 50 seconds, run around pillars and then go out with all cooldowns and procs. This is already a playstyle that is shitty but effective and any changes to these talents will emphazize that playstyle even more.

Let 5.3 play out for a bit and I'm pretty confident that the nerfs were big enough (especially when looking at the hunter and spriest nerfs that came along). If rogues should still be over the top, Subterfuge can be tuned down.

But one more time for everyone: 5.1 rogues were considered to be bad. They had Subterfuge back then.

Now that I've read/thought about all the changes some more, I agree to see how things turn out. I'm fairly certain Rogues will be in a good state. The PvP power adjustment will indeed have a big effect on Rogue game-play and sadly will most likely make specs like Assassination and Combat even more inferior to Subtlety. There are still a lot of changes I would like to see happen, but that is an entirely new topic.

Anyways, I do want to point this out. The reason rogues were weak in 5.1 is because:

You had to choose between Prep or ShS.
CnD didn't exist, thus no synergy with Subterfuge.
CoS was a 2 minute cooldown.
Shuriken Toss was sub-par and Redirect was practically useless compared to Marked for Death.
And last but not least, gear scaling.

I could have been more detailed with my post, but it's getting late and I have to work early in the morning. TLDR Agreed.

Regarding Assasination and combat. I don't think it is possible to balance them around the talents. It's the inherent mechanics of the specs that make them inferior.

Assasination does not use Wound Poison or loses a large part of its damage and they lack burst outside of Blades/Vendetta. While Assasination does the most damage over time it lacks the on demand burst and other classes fill that role better. Assasination needs a second burst cooldown, the spot Cold Blood had for years. Cold Blood won't work anymore of course but either the energy reduction after stealth or some kind of on demand energy reduction would be nice. Another alternative would be to give Rupture range and turn Assassination into a stronger ranged spec but that would probably be over the top and create ridiculous amounts of energy if abused correctly.

For combat the main issue is that Killing Spree is countered too easily. For it to become viable Killing Spree needs to go onto one target but that might again be over the top due to the crowd control immunity. Maybe a glyph option would work out better. The next issue with combat is the bad poison application. Means if you are unlucky and your utility poison does not proc early on enemy players can run away. You want to open without Cheap Shot usually to land burst into the 8 second Kidney Shot. One of the biggest disadvantages is Bandit's Guile. You need to wait for proc to stack before you deal damage and enemy teams with enough awareness can kite you during these phases. Maybe a compromise could be that the glyphed Killing Spree makes the rogue immune to snares and roots and deals damage to one target only. But no immunity to stun/disarm/fear etc.

killing spree isn't immune to disarm(using target=arena123 disarm) and the only thing combat even needs is armor pen. how on earth a spec that is completely physical damage does not have some sort of way to mitigate armor is beyond me. monks are honestly everything combat should have been (30% armor pen and on demand bandit's guile