Build a featureful router using an ITX motherboard, two NICs, and theSmoothWall distro watching this mechanically-inept person doing it -- I'msurprised he hasn't lost any fingers, hands, feet, or his life by now. :-)

Post by smsI think I'd buy an Intel NUC that has a PCIe Mini slot (for a secondNIC) that runs off of 12V and use a 12V deep cycle car battery.<http://techreport.com/news/25956/intel-bay-trail-nuc-is-available-online>[...]

Hi Steven,

First I've heard of the NUC; thanks for the URL!

FYI, there's no such thing as a 'deep cycle car battery' because therequirements for starting a car differ dramatically from those for apowered wheelchair or a trolling (fishing) motor or a golf cart.

A car battery is relatively light-weight because the lead plates arethin. A true deep-cycle battery is heavy (starting at 50 pounds) dueto the extremely thick lead plates.

I have a bunch of marine deep-cycle batteries for use with telescopesand unless I use a cart I have to carry two at a time, one hanging fromeach arm, just to maintain my balance. You can see some of the batterypacks I use for my telescopes here -- I bought the marine deep-cyclebatteries at Costco and put them in Cabelas battery cases -- I have morenow than what's shown in this almost 10-year-old photo and I have bettermaintainer/charger units for the marine deep-cycle batteries now thanwhat's seen atop the battery cases in this photo:

Post by smsI think I'd buy an Intel NUC that has a PCIe Mini slot (for a secondNIC) that runs off of 12V and use a 12V deep cycle car battery.<http://techreport.com/news/25956/intel-bay-trail-nuc-is-available-online>[...]

Hi Steven,First I've heard of the NUC; thanks for the URL!FYI, there's no such thing as a 'deep cycle car battery' because therequirements for starting a car differ dramatically from those for apowered wheelchair or a trolling (fishing) motor or a golf cart.

Right, except the starting batteries for the Prius and Camry hybridactually are deep cycle batteries.

Post by smsI think I'd buy an Intel NUC that has a PCIe Mini slot (for a secondNIC) that runs off of 12V and use a 12V deep cycle car battery.<http://techreport.com/news/25956/intel-bay-trail-nuc-is-available-online>[...]

Hi Steven,First I've heard of the NUC; thanks for the URL!FYI, there's no such thing as a 'deep cycle car battery' because therequirements for starting a car differ dramatically from those for apowered wheelchair or a trolling (fishing) motor or a golf cart.

Right, except the starting batteries for the Prius and Camry hybridactually are deep cycle batteries.<http://www.amazon.com/Optima-Batteries-8171-767-DS46B24R-YellowTop/dp/B006VFEJJQ><http://www.elearnaid.com/opd51yetopba.html>

Maybe on some models of the Prius but my car used a Japanese motorcyclebattery. It finally died after 11 years :-)

Post by smsI think I'd buy an Intel NUC that has a PCIe Mini slot (for a secondNIC) that runs off of 12V and use a 12V deep cycle car battery.<http://techreport.com/news/25956/intel-bay-trail-nuc-is-available-online>[...]

Hi Steven,

Hmmm, this comment there surprised me:

"At least the Celeron runs at 2.4GHz all the time."

which implies no CPU scaling so that means it's going to be consumingfull-power all the time. Per Intel's page, that's 12VDC, 36W.

The IR input and the other ports make a strong statement the NUC isintended as the center of a home theater system as we also see onthat page per:

" ... will allow you to drive your home entertainment experience" from the 4x4 form factor, so you can create a digital media" center or personal cloud for your media files that fits in the" palm of your hand.

Another "gotcha" is I cannot find any motherboard pictures or anystatement that, for example, a second NIC can be added which wouldbe necessary for use as a router though the Intel pages does state:

which implies one will need to unplug and toss that wireless cardassuming one can find a GiGE NIC that fits a PCIe mini-card slot

Also. the only hardware (besides the dual-core CPU itself) that'sspecified is "Intel Wireless-N 7260BN" which means that whateverOS is chosen for installation will need to support that and/or theonboard NIC and/or a second GiGE NIC replacing the Intel wirelessdepending how one intends to use the router.

Post by smsI think I'd buy an Intel NUC that has a PCIe Mini slot (for a secondNIC) that runs off of 12V and use a 12V deep cycle car battery.<http://techreport.com/news/25956/intel-bay-trail-nuc-is-available-online>[...]

Hi Steven,"At least the Celeron runs at 2.4GHz all the time."which implies no CPU scaling so that means it's going to be consumingfull-power all the time. Per Intel's page, that's 12VDC, 36W.The IR input and the other ports make a strong statement the NUC isintended as the center of a home theater system as we also see on" ... will allow you to drive your home entertainment experience" from the 4x4 form factor, so you can create a digital media" center or personal cloud for your media files that fits in the" palm of your hand.Another "gotcha" is I cannot find any motherboard pictures or anystatement that, for example, a second NIC can be added which would" Half-length PCIe* mini-card slot (used by pre-installed" wireless card)

Right, you'd remove that wireless card and stick in a PCIe Mini CardNIC. You'd have to figure out how to get that extra RJ45 (or two)jack(s) into the back.

Those NUCs are a good deal since they come with the CPU. The powersupply is a pretty ginormous brick. The one that came with mine is thisone:<http://www.sinpro.com.tw/products_detail_2.aspx?b_class=I.T.E.&name=SPU65&bc_sn=19&c_sn=50>,the -105 model. I added a second 5.5/2.1 power plug to the cable andalso power a small 15" HDMI monitor. Some of the NUC models use a 19Vsupply.

Post by Thad FloryanAn email correspondent sent me the following 2 URLs earlier today and Ididn't have time to watch them until several hours ago due to runtimes.What really surprised me was seeing ads/commercials embedded directly inboth these YouTube videos -- I hope this vile trend doesn't continue.In any event --Build a featureful router using an ITX motherboard, two NICs, and theSmoothWall distro watching this mechanically-inept person doing it -- I'msurprised he hasn't lost any fingers, hands, feet, or his life by now. :-)Hak5: Building a high performance home routerhttp://youtu.be/71S9fek0FKAruntime 48:20...

Seems to be lots of time and money spent instead of buying a realrouter. The "production" version of Smoothwall was released in 2007which is a bad sign.

My suggestion is Mikrotik. Here is a $70 one capable of 300 Mbps.

http://routerboard.com/RB951G-2HnD

If you need to go faster, Mikrotik has a complete line that all run thesame OS which is being updated and maintained. You can also buy theirRouterOS and install it on your own hardware

Post by Thad Floryan[...]Build a featureful router using an ITX motherboard, two NICs, and theSmoothWall distro watching this mechanically-inept person doing it -- I'msurprised he hasn't lost any fingers, hands, feet, or his life by now. :-)Hak5: Building a high performance home routerhttp://youtu.be/71S9fek0FKAruntime 48:20...

Seems to be lots of time and money spent instead of buying a realrouter. The "production" version of Smoothwall was released in 2007which is a bad sign.

Hi Roy,

Are we looking at the same thing? Here:

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=smoothwall

SmoothWall's most recent release (RC3) is 17-SEP-2013 and RC4is 12-DEC-2013.

Frankly, any Linux OS running on a box with 2 (or more) NICscould be configured as a router.

Post by RoyMy suggestion is Mikrotik. Here is a $70 one capable of 300 Mbps.http://routerboard.com/RB951G-2HnDIf you need to go faster, Mikrotik has a complete line that all run thesame OS which is being updated and maintained. You can also buy theirRouterOS and install it on your own hardware

Interestng. I'm curious as to whose [presumed] managed GiGE 5-port moduleis being used in their RB951G-2HnD; I couldn't find anything searchingthat on their website, but Googling:

what managed switch is used in the Mikrotik RB951G-2HnD

did find this page which answers that question noting Mikrotik usesat least 5 different modules with the Atheros8327 being used in theRB951G-2HnD.

http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:Switch_Chip_Features

Your comment about buying RouterOS and using it on one's ownhardware is puzzling: wouldn't the RouterOS only function withthe switch modules stated on the immediately above URL?

Post by Thad Floryan[...]Interestng. I'm curious as to whose [presumed] managed GiGE 5-port moduleis being used in their RB951G-2HnD; I couldn't find anything searchingwhat managed switch is used in the Mikrotik RB951G-2HnDdid find this page which answers that question noting Mikrotik usesat least 5 different modules with the Atheros8327 being used in theRB951G-2HnD.http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:Switch_Chip_Features[...]

Post by Thad Floryan[...]Build a featureful router using an ITX motherboard, two NICs, and theSmoothWall distro watching this mechanically-inept person doing it -- I'msurprised he hasn't lost any fingers, hands, feet, or his life by now. :-)Hak5: Building a high performance home routerhttp://youtu.be/71S9fek0FKAruntime 48:20...

Seems to be lots of time and money spent instead of buying a realrouter. The "production" version of Smoothwall was released in 2007which is a bad sign.

Post by RoyIf you need to go faster, Mikrotik has a complete line that all run thesame OS which is being updated and maintained. You can also buy theirRouterOS and install it on your own hardware

Interestng. I'm curious as to whose [presumed] managed GiGE 5-port moduleis being used in their RB951G-2HnD; I couldn't find anything searchingwhat managed switch is used in the Mikrotik RB951G-2HnDdid find this page which answers that question noting Mikrotik usesat least 5 different modules with the Atheros8327 being used in theRB951G-2HnD.http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:Switch_Chip_FeaturesYour comment about buying RouterOS and using it on one's ownhardware is puzzling: wouldn't the RouterOS only function withthe switch modules stated on the immediately above URL?Thad

Mikrotik has a bridge function which will handle unlike interfaces (egwifi and ethernet) and also will act as a software switch. The lattercase is when disparate or multiple chips are used (as in some models) orin systems without any hardware switch chips.

So you could build a system with multiple ethernet interfaces and runRouterOS on it just fine. I have run RouterOS in a virtual machine onmy laptop just to test configurations.

RouterOS comes in versions for different processor chips so if you aregoing to try it on a PC, make sure you get the x86 one. I use the ISOfile and just boot it with my virtual machine

Post by Thad FloryanFrankly, any Linux OS running on a box with 2 (or more) NICscould be configured as a router.

A single NIC should work just as well, from a functional perspective. Youprobably want two or more for the additional throughput capability orperhaps for simple link redundancy, but for basic router functions, one isall that's needed.

Post by Thad FloryanFrankly, any Linux OS running on a box with 2 (or more) NICscould be configured as a router.

A single NIC should work just as well, from a functional perspective. Youprobably want two or more for the additional throughput capability orperhaps for simple link redundancy, but for basic router functions, one isall that's needed.

Hi Marcus,

Scratchin' my head here, how could one have a functional router withonly one NIC?

Post by Thad FloryanFrankly, any Linux OS running on a box with 2 (or more) NICscould be configured as a router.

A single NIC should work just as well, from a functional perspective. Youprobably want two or more for the additional throughput capability orperhaps for simple link redundancy, but for basic router functions, one isall that's needed.

Post by Thad FloryanFrankly, any Linux OS running on a box with 2 (or more) NICscould be configured as a router.

A single NIC should work just as well, from a functional perspective. Youprobably want two or more for the additional throughput capability orperhaps for simple link redundancy, but for basic router functions, one isall that's needed.

I suspect that he means a wireless router with a USB dongle forwireless. You could also use USB to wired Ethernet. So technically youdon't need any NICs at all, except that a USB adapter is really a NIC.

Post by Thad FloryanFrankly, any Linux OS running on a box with 2 (or more) NICscould be configured as a router.

A single NIC should work just as well, from a functional perspective. Youprobably want two or more for the additional throughput capability orperhaps for simple link redundancy, but for basic router functions, one isall that's needed.

I install enterprise network gear for a living and about 70% of the time I'mgiven a network design that incorporates a "single" interface. Thatinterface is typically built up from multiple copper Gig interfaces (or10Gig or 40Gig fiber interfaces), but they're aggregated with 802.1q andLACP so that they appear to be a single -fat- interface.

About 30% of the time I build to a network design that uses differentphysical interfaces for 'external' versus 'internal' VLANs, but I alwayspoint out to my customers that that's not required and is usually a lessefficient use of their resources.

Logically, it's helpful to think of a router as having two or moreinterfaces, but physically, there only needs to be at least one.

Post by Thad Floryan[...]Scratchin' my head here, how could one have a functional router withonly one NIC?[ LAN ] <===> [ ROUTER ] <===> [ INTERNET via DSL, cable, etc ][...][...]1) Two subnets overlaid on the same ethernet. The router handles theInter-subnet traffic. Check out hairpin routing2) The ethernet has VLANS and the router goes between the VLANs3) VPN from router to some distant device.4) IPV6 tunnel to a tunnel broker giving the ethernet IPV6 support.5) Proxyarp support6) Services the router supplies like DNS, VPN, NTP, DHCP7) Web cachingCombinations of some or all of the previous ones makes it more complicated.You are right though, a one-armed router is not typical. I have onerouter doing fuctions 1,2,3,4,6 although it does have 10 ethernetinterfaces.[...]I suspect that he means a wireless router with a USB dongle forwireless. You could also use USB to wired Ethernet. So technically youdon't need any NICs at all, except that a USB adapter is really a NIC.

and

Post by Thad Floryan[...]Think "router on a stick" and tagged VLANs.I install enterprise network gear for a living and about 70% of the time I'mgiven a network design that incorporates a "single" interface. Thatinterface is typically built up from multiple copper Gig interfaces (or10Gig or 40Gig fiber interfaces), but they're aggregated with 802.1q andLACP so that they appear to be a single -fat- interface.About 30% of the time I build to a network design that uses differentphysical interfaces for 'external' versus 'internal' VLANs, but I alwayspoint out to my customers that that's not required and is usually a lessefficient use of their resources.Logically, it's helpful to think of a router as having two or moreinterfaces, but physically, there only needs to be at least one.

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for your replies!

I been retired since 2008 and haven't kept up and remained current withnetworking technologies other than knowing "faster is better". :-)

Post by Thad FloryanAn email correspondent sent me the following 2 URLs earlier today and Ididn't have time to watch them until several hours ago due to runtimes.What really surprised me was seeing ads/commercials embedded directly inboth these YouTube videos -- I hope this vile trend doesn't continue.In any event --Build a featureful router using an ITX motherboard, two NICs, and theSmoothWall distro watching this mechanically-inept person doing it -- I'msurprised he hasn't lost any fingers, hands, feet, or his life by now. :-)Hak5: Building a high performance home routerhttp://youtu.be/71S9fek0FKAruntime 48:2048-hour backup battery supply for your el-cheapo UPS system whose batteryhas bit the big one.Build a 48 Hour Backup Computer Power Supply - SYSTMhttp://youtu.be/jX1OQZ1B6m0runtime 24:36Lots of caveats and liability disclaimers in the above video makesone wonder whether it's even worth doing, but if you want to operatethrough a 2-day power outage this is one solution.And their safety tips should NOT be dismissed or ignored.Thad

May routers run off 9-16 VDC so it's trivial to put them on a battery.LiFePO4 and lead acid are trivial to charge. LiPo can be float chargedas long as you chose a temperature-compensated voltage that will neverhit 100% charge. Meanwell makes 12VDC SMPS with adjustable output.

Post by Thad Floryan[...]Build a 48 Hour Backup Computer Power Supply - SYSTMhttp://youtu.be/jX1OQZ1B6m0runtime 24:36Lots of caveats and liability disclaimers in the above video makesone wonder whether it's even worth doing, but if you want to operatethrough a 2-day power outage this is one solution.And their safety tips should NOT be dismissed or ignored.

May routers run off 9-16 VDC so it's trivial to put them on a battery.LiFePO4 and lead acid are trivial to charge. LiPo can be float chargedas long as you chose a temperature-compensated voltage that will neverhit 100% charge.

Hi Kevin,

"LiPo"? Lithium-Polonium? Polonium is highly radioactive:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonium

Does its heat boil water into steam turning a generator creatingAC which is then converted to DC in the battery package? :-)

I can handle radioactives safely, but, somehow, I don't think that'swhat you meant, so I Googled "LiPo battery" and found this:

and they're rechargeable and often used in cell phones. Hmmm, mytwo current cellphones use Li-Ion batteries. The Wikipedia articlestates this:

The advantages of Li-ion polymer over the lithium-ion designinclude potentially lower cost of manufacture, adaptability to awide variety of packaging shapes, reliability, and ruggedness,with the disadvantage of holding less charge. Lithium-ionpolymer batteries started appearing in consumer electronicsaround 1995.

That "less charge" for LiPo bugs me and the reason is "lower cost"which has a certain negative connotation.

Post by Kevin McMurtrie... LiPo can be float chargedas long as you chose a temperature-compensated voltage that will neverhit 100% charge. Meanwell makes 12VDC SMPS with adjustable output.

Head slap and face palm, I had to lookup "SMPS" to discover it's theacronym for a switched-mode power supply which I've never heard [theacronym] before.

I also looked up "Meanwell 12VDC SMPS" and noted they have a large lineof such Power Supply Units (PSUs). :-)

Post by Thad Floryan[...]Build a 48 Hour Backup Computer Power Supply - SYSTMhttp://youtu.be/jX1OQZ1B6m0runtime 24:36Lots of caveats and liability disclaimers in the above video makesone wonder whether it's even worth doing, but if you want to operatethrough a 2-day power outage this is one solution.And their safety tips should NOT be dismissed or ignored.

May routers run off 9-16 VDC so it's trivial to put them on a battery.LiFePO4 and lead acid are trivial to charge. LiPo can be float chargedas long as you chose a temperature-compensated voltage that will neverhit 100% charge.

Hi Kevin,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PoloniumDoes its heat boil water into steam turning a generator creatingAC which is then converted to DC in the battery package? :-)I can handle radioactives safely, but, somehow, I don't think that'sLithium polymer battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_polymer_batterywhich seems more suitable for consumers and home use. :-)Battery types are frequently identified by their primary elementse.g., NiCd (Nickel-Cadmium), NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydride), Pb (sealedLead battery), LiIon (Lithium Ion), AgZn (Silver-Zinc), ZnC/ZnCl2(Zinc-Carbon/Zinc-Chloride), AgHg (Silver-Mercury button cells),ZnBr2 (Zinc-Bromine), NaS (Sodium-Sulfur), NaNiCl2 (Sodium-Nickel-Chloride), and more which is why "LiPo" threw me off. According tothe Wikipedia article, these are the common acronyms for the sameLi-poly, Li-Pol, LiPo, LIP, PLI or LiPUgh. "LiP" would be Lithium Phosphorus -- sounds very wicked. :-)and they're rechargeable and often used in cell phones. Hmmm, mytwo current cellphones use Li-Ion batteries. The Wikipedia articleThe advantages of Li-ion polymer over the lithium-ion designinclude potentially lower cost of manufacture, adaptability to awide variety of packaging shapes, reliability, and ruggedness,with the disadvantage of holding less charge. Lithium-ionpolymer batteries started appearing in consumer electronicsaround 1995.That "less charge" for LiPo bugs me and the reason is "lower cost"which has a certain negative connotation.

If you've ever seen a Lithium Ion battery go critical, you'd know thatthe safer ones are worth the capacity loss. A big UPS-sized Lithium Ionbattery in my house would scare the crap out of me.

LiFePO4 is the most safe. Lithium Polymer Ion is safe against punctureand shorting, but will otherwise produce flaming electrolyte jets thenbecome red hot when abused.

Post by Kevin McMurtrie... LiPo can be float chargedas long as you chose a temperature-compensated voltage that will neverhit 100% charge. Meanwell makes 12VDC SMPS with adjustable output.

Head slap and face palm, I had to lookup "SMPS" to discover it's theacronym for a switched-mode power supply which I've never heard [theacronym] before.I also looked up "Meanwell 12VDC SMPS" and noted they have a large lineof such Power Supply Units (PSUs). :-)Learn something new every day; thank you!Thad

Post by Kevin McMurtrieMay routers run off 9-16 VDC so it's trivial to put them on a battery.LiFePO4 and lead acid are trivial to charge. LiPo can be float chargedas long as you chose a temperature-compensated voltage that will neverhit 100% charge. Meanwell makes 12VDC SMPS with adjustable output.

Yes, those Meanwell SMPS supplies are pretty nice. I'm using a 24VDCmodel with adjustable output. "Adjustable output" means a small range ofadjustability, just a couple of of volts in either direction, but that'ssufficient. But if you want to do it properly, you need to have a devicethat doesn't over-charge the battery but that switches to full batterypower when it detects an AC failure without bringing the system down.This is pretty easy when the computer is running off of a single 12V supply.