KC, I’ll back Joan in this regard. Your loyalty to your party tends to color your perception of the possible.

Wih that in mind, please consider: Medicare-for-All wouldn’t even be up for discussion if activists didn’t push beyond a candidate who made it a point to dampen expectations by proclaiming single payer was never going to happen, and a party who backed her to the hilt.

Low expectations.
Allegiance to the status quo that funnels ever more wealth to a tiny sliver of the citizenry.
Donors calling the shots on who heads the DNC.

KC, you backed or excused every one of the above. And those are precisely the kind of positions that have relegated your party to the political wilderness. Sure, we’ll ping pong back to a Democratic president (maybe), but the voters are tired of ping pong and corporate ownership of the calcified 2-party farce.

The “average consumer” could pay less without cutting taxes - if the decidedly above average consumer paid more - and there are other funding mechanisms to tap into that are likely to raise the ire of only the “1%” - but those are the folks who will attempt use the “average consumer’s” interest as cover - just as big business claims to be protecting the interests of small business when it opposes any rule or reg that restricts their ability to rip us off …

I am a big fan of MMT, was very excited when Sanders hired Kelton as his chief economic adviser, and I am well aware of the fact that everything could be created without the need to tax and without the government needing to go into debt. However, as you know, the ideas of MMT have not been accepted, nor does the government operate in the way that MMT would like it to. I think the ideas are powerful, including a federal jobs guarantee.

If you want to say that, fine, but I think progressives were played for suckers here in California on single payer, myself included, and I have yet to see anything to dissuade me of that belief. Now that Lara has his insurance commissioner website up, it’s obvious. He took money ($91,000) from the healthcare lobby in his last election, his coauthor took $120,000. He produced a bill with zero financing–none–as Appropriations Chair. That does not happen with real bills in California, unless Senate Finance has jurisdiction and it develops financing language. Of course, Lara held jurisdiction over his bill.

If you want to say Speaker Rendon was a sellout for tabling the bill, how do you explain Lara’s actions? Paul Ryan sent McConnell a bill with financing, but Lara’s too stupid or too scared to do the same? Why isn’t Lara drafting finance language now and recommitting the bill? A few weeks back, I posted links to similar healthcare bills that were recommitted after tabling. No response, of course. Moreover, if you want to cite the Pollin reports financing numbers (Joan provides a link above), fine. Now explain why Lara hasn’t put them in his bill? Do you think he’s confident enough to run them through the LAO’s Office? You and I both know the answer to that.

You see, I’m not making the argument that Rendon is awesome or that Governor Brown wanted this bill passed. I’ve never made those arguments. Brown wants to defend his infrastructure tax increase first, he’s made that priority clear. I am making the argument progressives were played for suckers by a guy who wanted to run for higher office, a guy who I have no doubt will back Nurses United as Insurance Commissioner in contract negotiations. He’ll get donations now too, probably even more from AHIP and other industry groups. “Corruption” doesn’t just work one way.

If that’s defending Democratic sellouts, whatever, than I plead guilty. Just because I like a bill, doesn’t mean I have to be quiet about nonsense when it’s obvious. But maybe I should just get back to cheerleading.

…a majority of American voters overall, and 67 percent of Democrats, believe that replacing the nation’s current healthcare system with a single-payer system—“in which the federal government would expand Medicare to cover the medical expenses of every American citizen”—is a good idea.

Moreover, if Congress does NOT expand the healthcare system into single-payer, there will always be gaps in anything else that Congress approves. For instance, someone will be left out; medical and prescription costs will be uneven. Medicare is the best healthcare available in the US – I know because I have it, though I haven’t had any catastrophic illnesses.

It may take a while to get to single payer – I understand it will take several steps, not all of which can be achieved at the same time, but we should support legislators who are willing to stay the course – and end this damned foolishness once and for all.

The bottom line is that voters have NO leverage or control over our representatives
who have arrived in office by means and methods other than our votes – i.e., hack-able
voting computers and rigged elections, corporate candidates.

The bottom line is that National Health Care has been put in the Dem Party’s hands many
times before – and one way or another they have managed to disappear it.

I look at things like this new poll published today on CD about how half of Trump’s republican base would support his postponing the 2020 elections and I feel like I have fallen overboard at sea and that the life boat coming to rescue me has a vote for Trump sticker on the bow.

You might say to me as I reached for it to climb aboard “For shame oh goodly and handsome Wereflea! For shame that you would compromise your progressive values so easily!”

I would answer - “Watch out for the sharks or didn’t you happen to notice them?”

If you only have two choices then logic and sanity is that you pick the better of the two and that is that. The Dems stink but you know they are running scared right now. They really blew it and they know it too.

I’m thinking that people can change the composition of the Dems by electing more progressive candidates in the mid term and by forcing the Dems to be what they constantly claim they are >>> for the working class.

Bernie showed them but as yet they are gutless and losing the respect of voters more and more!

It is worth remembering that one big reason for Donald Trump’s improbable victory over Hillary Clinton was popular revulsion over Dem-led Obamacare (sadistically labeled “Affordable Care,”, but actually a 2500 page monstrosity written by lobbyists for the Insurance, Big Pharma, and Hospital Corporations) rammed through by a Nancy Pelosi so emboldened as to declare that it had to be passed NOW- and read later).
So what does the GOP, flush with victory do, but try to ram through another lobbyist-written monstrosity to replace ACA. Hopefully it will congtain provisions for treatment of Tin-Ear-Syndrome, because they will be looking at a real blood-bath in the mid-term elections with their brand of dirty tricks on the people.
Mhy bumper sticker says “I dont want Affordable Care- I want CONGRESSCARE!”

When you recognize fascist government, I think what you do is join the Resistance …

The Vichy regime was the French government which succeeded the Third Republic from July 1940 to August 1944. It was proclaimed by Marshal Philippe Pétain following the military defeat of France and the July 10 vote by the National Assembly to grant extraordinary powers to Pétain, who held the title of President of the Council.

The “French state,” (L’État Français) in contrast to the “French Republic,” willfully collaborated with Nazi Germany to a high degree: raids to capture Jews and other “undesirables” were organized by the French police not only in the northern zone - occupied by the German Wehrmacht - but also in the southern “free zone” which was occupied only after the Allies invaded North Africa in November 1942.

While Pétain collaborated with the Germans, Charles de Gaulle claimed to incarnate the legitimacy and the continuity of France. Following the liberation of France after Operation Overlord, de Gaulle proclaimed the Provisional Government of the French Republic (GPRF) in June 1944. The GPRF was recognized as the legitimate government of France by all the allies on October 23, 1944.http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-french-vichy-regime

And, you’re suggesting here that we have two choices, which we don’t …
DP has long been supporting fascist/criminal activity and so has the GOP.

If you only have two choices then logic and sanity is that you pick the better of the two and that is that.

And here …

The Dems stink but you know they are running scared right now. They really blew it and they know it too.<

You’re suggesting that the DP are not criminal and fascist, but just a little misguided but have now seen the light?

And here …

I’m thinking that people can change the composition of the Dems by electing more progressive
candidates in the mid term and by forcing the Dems to be what they constantly claim they are
>>> for the working class.

THIS despite the reality that Rahm Emmanuel worked steadily to move Blue Dogs and RW Dem
into office and that the administration ensured that liberal and progressive Dems weren’t supported/funded?
(And long before Rahm they were doing this!)

And that this has been tried over and over again …
the only way to change the parties is to overturn them, stop voting for them and to create change
from OUTSIDE of government.

And here …

Bernie showed them but as yet they are gutless and losing the respect of voters more and more!<

You really believe that Dem Party didn’t know what to do until Bernie showed them?
That they were unaware that Americans are against war and MIC, or that they support National
Health Care for All???

It is not a problem of “gutless-ness” – these people have all sold their souls to the fascists.

Guess we will see but … if I see sharks, I get out of the water!<

You don’t seem to realize that Dem Party are also the sharks … they may seem to your eye to
be a bit further distant from you, but they are there waiting.

Aiding and abetting any of these people by voting for them or (heaven forbid) funding the
parties or corporate candidates is not something we should be doing any longer.

After the 2016 campaign there are no more excuses to cover up anything but electoral corruption.
There is no longer any denying of it.

Sigh… with all due respect, none of what you say is all that surprising to anyone my age. Assuming a continuation of the political process ( and not the second coming of Che ) then as yet the duopoly will carry on. Are they corrupt? Beyond belief they are. Is this new? Was going on before I was born and that is a long time ago.

I no longer ‘rage against the machine’ and bewail the shallowness of patriots who didn’t see the need for immediate Revolution! Comparisons to the French Resistance are over the top. Trump isnt rounding up Jews and Gypsies to exterminate them either!

Someday if this world continues to pump GHG into the atmosphere and our environment goes to shit for real - everywhere - then people will organically come to the same conclusion about such oppression. Now however is the time where all good people need to take back their democracy without disturbances and violence! We organize and vote out the bums.

Our last chance for our democracy before the environment hits the fan for real!

If nothing that I’m saying to you is a surprise … then why are you ignoring it?

And why are you assuming that this political system-duopoly and its corruption and
criminal activity will continue on?
Even Sanders was openly speaking of “Revolution.”

And, yet, this corruption that we are seeing today is beyond the every day corruption that used
to exist with the dividing line beginning at least two years before the end of WWII – and its
explosion into the open being the assassination of JFK and the coup on our people’s government.

Actually, I was suggesting that the Dem Party’s collusion with the GOP is not so different
from the French VICHY fake government which “willfully collaborated with
Nazi Germany to a high degree.”

Since you mention the “second coming of Che” it doesn’t seem that you are familiar with
what I have recommended in the way of non-violent Revolution.

And despite the many comparisons of Trump’s rise and views with Hitler you offer that …
“Trump isn’t rounding up Jews and Gypsies to exterminate them either!” but ignore the
campaigns of hatred against Mexicans and Muslims and North Korea right now.

How is Trump’s warmongering and his hate campaigns different?
And actually I’d add women to that list as he seems set for a new “Burning of the Witches.”

And there is certainly new momentum by Trump followers in regard to their increasing
anti-Jewish fervor and hate speech, … just as they have continued on with increasingly vile
hate speech against homosexuals.
And, is there any reason to think that African-Americans aren’t on their hate list, as well?

What you’ve said kind of embraces again the idea that fascism isn’t here unless we see
Brown Shirts beating people in the streets, or Jews being rounded up.
But … by then it is too late.

Unfortunately, our environment has “gone to shit for real, everywhere” – and it is likely already
too late to try to reverse the situation.
The environment has “hit the fan for real” and we are only now beginning to feel the effects of
the harm done up to about 1967. That is real enough - what came after that time is way more
dangerous and it will be intensely increasing the number of weather events and their severity.
As our scientists have made clear: “There is no way to say how all of this will compound.”

Fukushima is but just one example of what can happen with nuclear reactors which are all
dependent upon large water sources - and we have more than 100 in the US and more than
500 around the world.

Now however is the time where all good people need to take back their democracy without disturbances
and violence! We organize and vote out the bums.

With all due resect, I don’t think you understand the treason which took your democracy just
two years before the end of WWII …
Perhaps you have never bothered to look at these CIA Operations – or perhaps you don’t believe them?
But for anyone who is truly interested in what has happened to this nation they are essential to know
about and to understand.
Operation Mockingbird
Operation Paperclip (200,000 ex-Nazis involved)
Operation Gladio
And, MKULTRA Mind Control

And I have no idea how you haven’t figured out yet that your vote is worthless and that our
politicians well know that – especially after the 2016 election.

American voters have absolutely no leverage over, nor any way to hold our corporate
politicians accountable – and certainly NOT by our votes on hack-able voting computers!
See: Votescam - The Stealing of America

So what exactly are you suggesting. I am reluctant to comment because you engage in ‘false equivalencies’ which is too broad a brush for anyone to accept. For example, you state…

Greenwich:

And despite the many comparisons of Trump’s rise and views with Hitler you offer that …

“Trump isn’t rounding up Jews and Gypsies to exterminate them either!” but ignore the

campaigns of hatred against Mexicans and Muslims and North Korea right now.

How is Trump’s warmongering and his hate campaigns different?

Actually I was distinguishing between the two round ups rather than seeing them as equivalents. Trump deports people whereas Hitler murdered the ones he had rounded up. Big difference and that was what I wanted to convey.

So as to Revolution - nonviolent or otherwise - just what in real terms are you describing? What would this presumably nonviolent Revolution look like? What would happen? How would these things come about?

My poetical reference to a second coming of Che was in response to your reference to the French Resistance in WWII which was most certainly violent warfare and sabotage. I did not see where you added a nonviolent qualifier to having referred to the French Resistance so I took it as presented.