Quote:good idea Jude, and cross training is so very traditional anyhow

Hi Jim.Doesnt mean I am giving up looking for a higher percentage of proof , or should I say more proof to over whelm the nay sayers thought process.

I mean in a self defence scenario.Two people fightingFall to the floorOne finishes the other off with an arm bar/ break after striking while being the subject of the pull of gravity

(had to include that part being as it seems karate had internal and external power methods included)

(No S.O.L its not me being random)

The S/D encounter finishes in a Ground Fight.Arm bar and striking are in karate kata.

One day when I reach the dizzy heights I might post a video of such a method of explanation.They say pictures are a better explanation than words.There again seeing as Barad seems to be the better looking I could ask him to take part.

Couldnt we reduce the amount of nitpicking by having paragraphs or sentences of logical( or even none-logical) thought/ proof countered by logical(or none logical) thought and proof then a seperate part of only 15 words to nitpick at the bottom of the posting .?

That way it doesnst turn into total nit picking and then people get a chance to nit pick.

Random thoughts nothing to do with the topicNit pick? Interesting how that term came about?End of random thoughts.

Jude, A nit refers to the egg of a louse (Lice) or other parasitic insect; also : the insect itself when young. Nitpicking refers to looking eggs or young insects on your or someone elses body. Nit picking can mean minute and usually unjustified criticism

Quote:Jude, A nit refers to the egg of a louse (Lice) or other parasitic insect; also : the insect itself when young. Nitpicking refers to looking eggs or young insects on your or someone elses body. Nit picking can mean minute and usually unjustified criticism

Note: this is a tangential point not directed at anyone in particular.

I've always felt that anti political correctness is just people looking for an excuse to be lazy. There is no opinion however offensive that cannot, with a bit of consideration, be phrased in a civilised way.

It is my personal feeling that if one does not have the wits or intelligence to be polite and inoffensive when speaking then they should not be allowed to speak at all.

Or maybe some people have always been able to see through the PC BS and realized it means squat for those at which it is aimed. It is simply designed to make those who use it to feel better about themselves. For me it is useless.

Quote:good idea Jude, and cross training is so very traditional anyhow

Hi Jim.Doesnt mean I am giving up looking for a higher percentage of proof , or should I say more proof to over whelm the nay sayers thought process.

I mean in a self defence scenario.Two people fightingFall to the floorOne finishes the other off with an arm bar/ break after striking while being the subject of the pull of gravity

And there is for me the difference between karate and a system that continues on the ground. The arm-bar is not the end, getting up is the end and as quickly as possible. If you eliminate the thread by breaking his arm, great. If you cannot break his arm, you are not continuing with the arm bar in a stand-off where eventually opponent would give up. You do not try to get a dominant position to continue on the ground but you finish it and get up or you get up and reevaluate your position.

In goju-ryu there are drills where both persons end on the ground. Finish it by striking or kicking and get up. The arm-bar or take-down or submission technique is befor the ending strike or technique. Not the end technique. In wado-ryu I have seen parter drills where it ends in the arm bar etc but these came from ju-jitsu.

I think the Okinawan strategy, at least in karate, is to fight standing as much as possible. Against multiple opponents (with or without weapons) it is not good strategy to fight them of while on the ground. Karate and kobudo always take into consideration multiple opponents. Although the exploration of techniques is in the 1-on-1 scenario. But positioning and strategy I have been thaught take into consideration multiple opponents.

what I don't see is an effective method of partner work to develop those skills to be applicabile in a stand up wrestling format,

and ultimatly to assist the deployment of all the above stated methods and of course all the strikes, kicks, blocks etc etc in relaity.

Goju is nearer than the rest of the pack but even their excersise set and 2 man work is not nearly enough similair to known wrestling methods, used all over the world in different basic wrestling (often historical) arts and traditions, hence my personal development of what I choose to call 'tegumi' practice.

I did misunderstand, I apologize. Thanks for clearing it up, but I think I might misunderstand you on one aspect still, sorry beforehand . You disagree that certain practices utilized in karate may lead to the same skills? Like push hands, one steps, and free sparring? Or even solo kata?

I remember during gym wrestling we were learning the firemans carry, I would be fine until the moment of lift my posture would break. My teacher had me practice by myself slowly always making sure my hips were aligned and visualize the best I could everything happening. It wasnt ten minutes later I was pulling it off after only a few reps. This is not much different than kata and one steps.

To me, the practices involved in Karate can lead to development of skills and abilities to wrestle and strike. I guess I just dont think that something has to be constructed using the same method as something else to be proficent. Resistance in push hands is not much different than pummel drills, the abilities gained are similar therefor applicable under the same context as long as intent is given. One steps and sparring is absolutely no different than cooperative partner work and rolling. Of course depending on styles and the actual techniques your working, your never going to pull anything off unless you know it, or get lucky.

If you were to take a wrestling technique, put it into a kata form. Then practice the technique visualizing your performance a few hundred times. Continue to go over the hold in typical one step fashion with a completely non-resistant partner. Now go spar and try to do that technique. I would be willing to bet a B to A+ performance within a couple minutes. Im not talking pro level, or being able to pull it off against better fighters but within the skill range.

I mean in a self defence scenario.Two people fightingFall to the floorOne finishes the other off with an arm bar/ break after striking while being the subject of the pull of gravity

And there is for me the difference between karate and a system that continues on the ground. The arm-bar is not the end, getting up is the end and as quickly as possible. If you eliminate the thread by breaking his arm, great. If you cannot break his arm, you are not continuing with the arm bar in a stand-off where eventually opponent would give up. You do not try to get a dominant position to continue on the ground but you finish it and get up or you get up and reevaluate your position.

In goju-ryu there are drills where both persons end on the ground. Finish it by striking or kicking and get up. The arm-bar or take-down or submission technique is befor the ending strike or technique. Not the end technique. In wado-ryu I have seen parter drills where it ends in the arm bar etc but these came from ju-jitsu.

I think the Okinawan strategy, at least in karate, is to fight standing as much as possible. Against multiple opponents (with or without weapons) it is not good strategy to fight them of while on the ground. Karate and kobudo always take into consideration multiple opponents. Although the exploration of techniques is in the 1-on-1 scenario. But positioning and strategy I have been thaught take into consideration multiple opponents.

I can see your points. If I fell to the ground with an opponent in a S/D scenario on a one on one and if I could pound and attempt a break I would.If I couldnt I would try to get up. I wouldnt be fighting for a better/ dominant position.

Yes my first art was wado.

Still that is G/F. And it is in kata regardless if it is shown while standing up. It can still be applied on the deck.

Quote:[Or maybe some people have always been able to see through the PC BS and realized it means squat for those at which it is aimed. It is simply designed to make those who use it to feel better about themselves. For me it is useless.