A small private jet carrying a surgeon and members of his clinic staff aborted its landing at a Georgia airport before it hit a 60-foot utility pole and crashed in a flaming wreck, killing five people onboard and injuring two, federal authorities said Thursday. (www.chron.com) Mer...

It might be better to hold off on that kind of speculation. Many other reasons are out there such as an engine problem, flap retraction issue, I just think another pilot should not jump to a fault another pilot without more confirmed evidence

There is Security Video being reviewed. It does show however that a "balked landing" was initiated. I do feel that " Pilot Error" is a great possibility .......unfortunately. The Captain, being the PIC will have to take full responsibility for the outcome. I really do not believe there was any issue with the plane. That aircraft is fully capable of a good climb gradient, even single engine/flap malfunction of which neither, in my opinion was the case, to clear a 60ft. obstruction a1/4 mile past the end the runway. Lets be honest, there were some very serious mistakes/decisions made at the 500 HAA on the final approach. Very very sad......

I still believe it is best to not speculate on human error at this point until the investigation is completed. One does not know who may be reading these posts so I think we should avoid any more distress if possible. One could point to many facts but we were not in the pilot seats. We will all know soon enough. "humans can read equipment cannot".

No one is "speculating" Allen. These are opinions based on what is currently available, and they are opinions only. Not an investigation type.review.....strictly a forum. Even the investigators will have all types of opinions and they will collectively come to one conclusion in the final report.....which will take months to finalize....then guess what? The Lawyers will step in....and it is off to the races, unfortunately. It is bad all the way around, no matter how you slice it. None of us has blamed the PIC......not enough evidence at this point . The NTSB will do their due diligence and try to determine why this happened, and make recommendations to see if this can be avoided from happening again. Problem is, this type of accident has happened before, and it will happen again. Flying is in reality ... 10% skill and 90% judgement......

What is the difference between speculating and basing your opinion, Phil I have just given my opinion and you have given yours, mine will not hurt anyone, yours could, unless of course you have knowledge that friends and relatives are not reading these post. That was my only concern this early.we'll just leave it at that especially sense you did not address my only issue in my last post. I would refer you back to your previous post 2 days ago when you said you were speculating and looking at other reasons. I am not disputing what could have happened I just think it is wrong to start having opinions on our own until we know more, that's all

I have to agree with the other gentleman. You were not there, you were not flying that airplane, you did not make the decisions that were made in that moment, and I am not saying that you are not, but you are more than likely not typed in that aircraft. If you are a pilot, then you probably can come up with a possible reason for the accident with the information given and your experience as a pilot. However this is a public forum, and your opinion can be seen by countless individuals. If this was your father/brother/uncle/friend or anyone with any kind of significance to you, I am certain that that you would not appreciate them being labeled as an incompetent pilot by sating it was simply pilot error. I am sure that the families will do a lot of reading on this, and it would be unfortunate for the, to see a post by some person that has never met their family going off about how some very bad mistakes and decisions were made. If that is what the NTSB determines then so be it..that is their job.

Phil it is obvious that I was referencing the difficult of reaching the lift dump switch as well as moving the flap switch to the correct notch. I know this from my familiarization of the 390, and you?

Phil you are so full of it. I have owned and flown my 1A and Beech calls it a lift dump and so do I. How many hours do you have in 390's. And it is certainly not easy to get to at the rear of the pedestal. That being said it wold appear he never landing and might not have pushed the go-around switch. But. we do not know what was occurring in the cockpit at that moment.Call any beech rep and ask him about the lift dump.

In the original airplane the squat switches had to close to tell the Premier it was on the ground before the lift dump could deploy. But if the pilot bounced the landing, it took time to get the squat switches to close again after the second, or perhaps third touchdown. This all delayed lift dump deployment and runway was racing by before maximum braking became available.

The fix for that was to make the lift dump system independent of the squat switches and make a new control handle on the center pedestal to activate the system. Now, the pilot arms lift dump for takeoff or landing and then moves the handle to activate the system. The lift dump system is now always under the pilot's control, so he can get maximum braking after touchdown or during an aborted takeoff no matter what the squat switches say. Lift dump is locked out during other phases of flight to prevent an unintended deployment.Read more at http://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-reports/jets/beech-premier-ia-hits-its-stride?page=0,1#lrYsIkRGok8ACH4B.99 CHEW ON THIS PHIL

Ok Allen, No need to Shout! So .....you claim to be an Owner /Operator? I understand there IS a lift dump system. But what I was stating is that there is a Speed Brake capability on the Premier in which it is used in an inadvertent overspeed condition and is to be retracted prior to landing @50 feet?That's a trivia question for you. Your turn.

I just sent it. I don't know all about it yet either. If it don't pop out on your regular Email, on FA, go to DISCUSSIONS and click on new messages. It should be in there. If your setting aren't totally right back there on the mail, you nor a recipient will receive any notice that it's there

Preacher, I know he is capable of speaking for himself.....I never questioned that. I think we all have kicked this Lift Dump/Speed Brake business around plenty enough. Opinions and knowledge have been put out there. It has been a rather healthy debate. Communication has been key. That's what's it's all about. And for that, I thank all!

OK Allen, I' m in total agreement with you. It has been interesting and fun. I certainly learned from it from fellow Aviators and non- aviators alike. Preacher has been a really good referee! Thanks Preacher! See everyone in future postings. Blue Skies my Friends!

Airplanes usually don't crash because of one cause, and anything at this time is speculation, but I'd bet on pilot error as being a major contributor. If they were doing a missed approach, they certainly shouldn't have hit a 60' high pole a quarter mile past the runway.

I always read Sumwalts articles, but this is the first time I ever listened to him on the youtube clip.Man I just got flashbacks of when I was about 10 listening to the guy narrating the Black Beauty story on a 45.I think only Preacherman and Phil may know what a 45 is, for you younger kids it was kinda like a cd back in the days...

I just read again, the crash in buffalo and again I thought as a pilot how critical they error in the lists and altitude awareness, and this acident wheremaybe their missed procedures were in error. No one feels worse than the crew, who grew up wanting to their best and just fly. There is nothing more unforgiving as aviation. Most mistakes and crashes lead to future flights becoming safer. After reading ntsbs there are procedures that remind me of prior accidents.

We as pilots/crew have a responsibility and duty to the safe outcome, and the destiny of the flight......kinda scary isn't it?It is a tremendous responsibility. Just read the NTSB.GOV website accident data base and see the number of innocent accident victims who perish or are seriously injured by the PICs poor technique/decision making. There are accidents every single day......not even counting the incidents that are not reported or gathered. The Pilot/crew are in the drivers seat, in the pointed end, hopefully not like a hitched up trailer on the back end, just holding on.....

Phil Gibson. I try not to get in to a pissing contest with people on this forum. But your comment in the above post of “We as pilots/crew have a responsibility and duty to the safe outcome, and the destiny of the flight......kinda scary isn't it?” is to me a very big dish to every true airmen. I have been in the cockpit for over 20 years now and one thing you can bet your ass on is a true airmen puts safety first and knows all of the people that are on the planes life’s are in our hands. It’s not scary if it is you have no place in the cockpit. If passengers thought it was scary there would be no need for air travel. But they all trust us anything can happen and it will at the worst times. I would give my life any day for someone on my flight. And as to that flying is 10% skill and 90% decision making is not true any, bad or poor decision can get you in a dangerous situation it is 90% skill to get you out of it.

Well said. I consider both these guys friends and as Allen said, all are entitled to their opinion. It is natural on this forum for the speculation and opinions to run rampant, BUT, at one time or other, if you have flown for any length of time, we have all had one of them Oh SH** moments and gotten by with one that the book said we couldn't do. This was one that he got by with personally as far as living, but unfortunatly, people died so it is not one there'll be any hangar flying done about. It is something that he will have to live with the rest of his life and I am sure will go over it daily in his own mind. We should be respectful as far as speculating about the cause. That said, this is a public forum that acts as a sounding board for just such events and it is human nature to want to do so, especially if we didn't know the individual or airport involved and you can express an opinion but as you say, it probably won't be the final word.

Pickle..pitch...power...flaps 10... Positive rate....gear up ( the gear was still extended) V2...V2+10 & 400 HAA (minimum) climb to 1500agl....Vnr....in my opinion, and strictly MY opinion.....they may not have been prepared for a go-around. Take off or landing, you should always have a plan of action.....should you have a hiccup....a lot can happen in a very short period of time. An Abnormal can very quickly turn into an Emergency if not handled properly.....and then again we're all human. There is no Silver Bullet.

Well, the new stuff is nicer as far as the mundane, repetitive stuff that goes on, but the old stuff is what you developed stick and rudder skills on. Some guys today can't open a door without a checklist. To a lot of us old folks all a checklist is for is to tell you about something new. Most time, as in the case of this crash, you don't have time to go hunting for it. The old days bring back memories that you laugh about and wouldn't take anything for, but in a lot of cases, wouldn't go thru them again for a million $.lol

Well, I'm back to halfway working right now, at least for a couple of years and on call for fill in, so I won't be getting too far away. How you doing anyway. It just now dawned on me this morning who I was talking too. For whatever reason, I didn't recognize that handle and hadn't heard from you on Email awhile.

Didn't take that long if you were flying freight, and didn't take long to sort the wheat from the chafe. Still somewhat amazed at the safety record of Part 135 Lear freight flying as the guy's (me) and a whole bunch of others moved up at a high rate of speed. Next thing I knew they were all flying Lear 60's for Flex and bragging about the performance of a new jet. Still haven't flown one.

It was going to be only a matter of time before the 1- 1A would have a fatal overshoot after so many overruns which led to the installation of the lift dump switch which is located slightly behind the pilots on the center pedestal and can be difficult to reach especially when trying to abort a touchdown as full power should have been able to give the pilot excellent climb performance. The fact the pilots new the airport, clear night and were known to be proficient in the 390 I can only come to the above stated possibility.

Well, 2 things here. Hopefully we'll know one of these days as the story said they thought one of the survivors was one of the pilots. Wonder why they were talking about other clinics in the region and the FA flight track link here shows it coming out of Alliance in Ft.Worth,TX.

As a seasoned golfer once told his playing partner, after a bad round, it ain't the clubs. These guys had obviously been there before, and as for this time, I don't know why! That's called high wing loading, ever flown a 20 series Lear or an MU-2? Neither are particularly forgiving of poor pilot technique but served long and productive lives. It ain't the clubs.

I love the MU-2's but you got to have good Good stick and rudder skills or it will take you to a place you don’t want to go quick and don’t like to go back your way. No high class uncle auto’s on most of the MU-2’s means you better have your stuff together.

Pilots airplane. I think the MU-2s had the old Bendix M series autopilots originally and the Lears had the Lear FC whatever, (200) I can't remember, and both meant you were on your own at the least opportune of times. Ever try to hand fly a 20 series at 450. A blink and the dinger goes off. Great fun! And my math says a Premiere 390 has a wing loading of 61 PPSF VS. 65 PPSF for a Lear 25 at max. gross. Good in turbulence, bad on short final!

Brain as I stated about the lift dump switch before they installed it the slats or lift dump panels would raise out of the wing to put weight onto the wheels to improve breaking as this aircraft did not have reverse thrust on the engines. Many new pilots would land hot and bounce the plane and the lift dumps would retract back into the wings and not re-deploy causing breaking problems and so the overruns. Another reason could be that the NFP either did not get the flaps back to the takeoff position or retracted them to the full up position causing the stall speed to increase so once they were out of ground effect the plane simply mushed in. SAD FOR ALL.

I go into Greensboro, just west of there, on a regular basis. The fog is usually bad early morning, but usually burns off by 0700. In the late afternoon it's usually the sunset right down the runway that blinds you, almost as bad as landing west in the afternoon at SAN. If the wx shown is accurate, I can't imagine what other restrictions to the vis. would be there, unless something local in nature, or maybe a steeper app. due to obstructions.

I am not sure but I do not think a normal touchdown would leave any tire marks that could be determined were from that plane I would imagine they were looking for skid, heavy braking marks which would have indicated touchdown point or blown tire. etc. just saying. I know the plane well.

The security camera's should help determine a touchdown or not. It is hard for me to accept that knowing the airport well,clear and light winds would result in that late of an attempted go around while still in the air would have occurred. But all things are possible I guess.

It is displaced 300 feet on one end and 200 on the other....usable is about 5000. At night and possibly a bit above ref, with a ref of about 110,,,,, only speculation,,,,,wasn't there. The one surviving pilot may have the key to what may have happened. The go around may also have caused by an "obstruction" on the runway? Also, applying 85% N2 would have retractied the speed brakes if in fact they were deployed at any point. The question has to be, at what point was the go around initiated ? We're the flaps raised to a take off position. So many questions .

As you say, it's all speculation at this point. As we all know, anything could have happened. We weren't there, and everything is speculation at this point. We of all people don't need to arbitrarily say pilot error before facts are known. 2 well qualified pilots as far as we know, and the testimony of the one surviving could blow everything here out of the water. Obviously something happened from which they couln't recover. Bad day, obstruction or mechanical? Only the one that was there can say.

The first officer walked away, and the captain is expected to make a full recovery according to local news reports. I live about 15 miles from this airport and know the airport very well. In my opinion there is no reason as to why they couldn't climb above the power pole, it is a long way from the end of the runway. That is IF AND ONLY IF they initiated the go around soon enough. Hate to say it but I would vote pilot error no doubt. Comm ASEL, About to finish CFI and Comm AMEL.