Clive is a good looking bloke who can seem physically imposing, but I swear he cannot act. He delivers everything in the same dull, expressionless monotone. He cannot even alter his accent very well. The only character that he is really suited to is some kind of Terminator or other robot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith

Luthor has to be white. And male. Hell no to Denzel as Lex. That would suck. Are the casting choices really that bad or limited that we have to suggest a guy who looks nothing like him to play him?

The race debate reverberates in every casting thread. There are some characters that would be altered too much if their race was changed, because there is an important cultural background to them (i.e. James Bond, Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent). Others are less specific, and I don't think actors of different racial background should be excluded if they have qualities that make them otherwise highly suited to the role. I think Lex Luthor is just such a character; so is Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Edward Nigma and Selina Kyle (assuming the concept of her Falcone blood is not used).

This is a particular factor for DC, because most of its principle characters were created in the 1930s-40s, when non-whites just weren't represented at all. The comics are clearly trying to redress this, since almost every new hero seems to be non-American, or non-white, or non-male, or non-heterosexual. The problem with that from a movie perspective is that all of those characters are (currently) almost unknown outside the comics. Who is really going to make a Vibe or a BatWing movie?

Denzel would be great as Lex. He isn't the only choice, but I don't think the fact he has black skin should rule him out.

__________________"Myth and high culture have much in common. Each is concerned to idealise the human condition, to lift it free from contingencies". -Sir Roger Scruton

Is it just me, or do you all get the feeling that no matter the race of the actor picked to play Lex that there will be resistance to the choice from the fans early on? I think people by and large were supportive of Henry C. getting Supes. But whomever is cast as Lex will be more dividing to fans I think.

I don't see any problem with casting an actor of a race different to that usually attributed to any character, so long as that character doesn't have traits that would make the change problematic. Clark Kent doesn't work because he represents that archetypal, Middle-American, blue collar, white farm-boy thing. Bruce Wayne is the last son of a founding family of Gotham; he is a kind of aristocrat with an ancient European heritage. You have to have an actor that fits, unless you want to change the character itself. Lex Luthor is a highly intelligent, charismatic and ruthless megalomaniac. He is culturally neutral, and I fail to see why a non-white actor couldn't play the part.

On your second point, I don't think we can live in a post-racist world until we are able to show that people of all colours can be good or evil. It didn't raise any comment in Daredevil, anyway.

__________________"Myth and high culture have much in common. Each is concerned to idealise the human condition, to lift it free from contingencies". -Sir Roger Scruton

I wouldn't mind a non white Luthor. I wouldn't mind a Luthor that was a Caucasian either. Right now though, I can't really think of anyone I really WANT to play him. If there was a sense they were going a more race neutral way, then I put Chiewetel at the top, but even then it's because he does fit the on paper needs of Lex, but do I really want Chiwetel? Naw.... HE'S THE RIGHTFUL KING OF WAKANDA!

I agree that it shouldn't be changed for the sake of it, but argue that if an actor is in all other respects perfect for the role, their race should not be an issue.

100% this.

Denzel would NAIL the Lex role, moreso than any actor suggested thus far (Crowe would've actually been on par with him had he not been cast as Jor-El). The backlash would be tremendously ridiculous though. As a Black man, I wish we really did live in a "post-racial" society but I ain't naive.

LOL, actually I can see Reeves doing a good Brainiac. His character in The Day the Earth Stood Still felt very Brainiac-esque to me. However, I don't want to listen to a year or so of fanboys bashing the movie because "THEY CASTED TEH WURST ACTOR EVAR AS THE VILLIAN" so I hope they pic someone else.

In my opinion, this version of Lex should be some kind of evil Tony Stark. Genius, billionaire, etc. He should be a charismatic villain... An egomaniac human supremacist. “All men are created equal. All men. You are not a man”
I vote for Jon Hamm

And Kingpin isn't that close to Lex. Lex is a genius, political figurehead and amazing businessman. Kingpin just oversees crime in NY. Take Kingpin out of NY and he's just a fat guy. Lex can rule the world.

Lex is also a ("mad") scientist and inventor. People seem to forget that part of him. He's like an evil Tony Stark/Bruce Wayne/Dr Doom.

The majority of them are not big enough stars to fit what Snyder wants for the character. Hamm is pretty well known in the tv world now, Matt Damon, Ed Norton (not happening, hope not), Michael C Hall is another huge tv name...everyone else you've mentioned Rowsdower just doesn't fit the level of stardom Zack has mentioned.

__________________"Lets make one thing very clear here - Nolan's films are as faithful an adaptation as there is. It pays homage to its source material, remains true to its characters and above all else places the story first and foremost." - jmc

The race debate reverberates in every casting thread. There are some characters that would be altered too much if their race was changed, because there is an important cultural background to them (i.e. James Bond, Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent). Others are less specific, and I don't think actors of different racial background should be excluded if they have qualities that make them otherwise highly suited to the role. I think Lex Luthor is just such a character; so is Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Edward Nigma and Selina Kyle (assuming the concept of her Falcone blood is not used).

This is a particular factor for DC, because most of its principle characters were created in the 1930s-40s, when non-whites just weren't represented at all. The comics are clearly trying to redress this, since almost every new hero seems to be non-American, or non-white, or non-male, or non-heterosexual. The problem with that from a movie perspective is that all of those characters are (currently) almost unknown outside the comics. Who is really going to make a Vibe or a BatWing movie?

Denzel would be great as Lex. He isn't the only choice, but I don't think the fact he has black skin should rule him out.

I really think if they wanted to make Luthor black in the 40s they'd have made him black. He's well known, established and liked the way he is. If it's a character that's been around for a while but never really caught on then it's okay to tinker with stuff like that, but not for major players like Luthor, or Dick Grayson or even the Riddler. I don't agree with any of what you just said. When they have changed the races of major characters (Catwoman for instance) like you suggested, they've usually sucked and regardless are not remembered as the "iconic" (i.e "best) interpretation of that character.

Julie Newmar will always be preferred to Eartha Kitt, Michele Pfeiffer to Halle Berry, because they are closer to and better represent the true versions of their characters.

When Mila Kunis plays Storm, give me a call, and I will ***** about that.

How they look is 50% of being the character. It's simple. Lex Luthor isn't black. Clark Kent isn't a blonde. You can cast a blonde as Superman, but you damn sure better dye his hair black if you do. (they even gave Routh blue contacts to wear...although I'd have been fine with a brown eyed Superman since that's not THAT big a deal to ME, but it just shows how important that is to people)

The fact that Denzel has black skin should rule him out because his character does not. And vice versa.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Project862006

not about race i just feel on a personal level when your are at such an iconic level as lex you shouldn't be changed for the sake of change just be faithful to his comic book imagery

It's unnecessary. This shouldn't even be a discussion. Has nothing to do with "racism". Luthor isn't black. Simple.

Besides, Denzel has aged...poorly. I don't think some of you guys even know what you're asking.

The majority of them are not big enough stars to fit what Snyder wants for the character. Hamm is pretty well known in the tv world now, Matt Damon, Ed Norton (not happening, hope not), Michael C Hall is another huge tv name...everyone else you've mentioned Rowsdower just doesn't fit the level of stardom Zack has mentioned.

Well, the trouble is, there are only so many huge names out there that fit the bill. Most of those guys (though certainly not all) are at least fairly recognizable up-and-comers. I really want them to avoid an actor who is twice Cavill's age; we've had that before in the films and I think it's time for a change. Lex should be a bit older than Superman but I don't want a guy who looks like he could be his father.

I don't really agree with that Kevin Smith. They're not the lead characters. I don't think race matters with supporting characters within a story. Film is just another interpretation. For example I have no problem with Idris Elba taking over as James Bond as thousands have written petitions for such a thing.

Race doesn't matter. What matters is the essence of the "character". Is he a MULTI billionaire powerful man, is he this, is he that? does he behave in this manner. Im not a purist, I see Denzel playing Lex magnificently. But no he's not anywhere near my top choice for the role. I can name a half a dozen that are better suited, and white, like the character is known to be. But making him black means nothing to me if it's a great actor who can embody all the human qualities and powerful elements that Lex needs.

I really don't see how anything else matters.

__________________"Lets make one thing very clear here - Nolan's films are as faithful an adaptation as there is. It pays homage to its source material, remains true to its characters and above all else places the story first and foremost." - jmc

Well, the trouble is, there are only so many huge names out there that fit the bill. Most of those guys (though certainly not all) are at least fairly recognizable up-and-comers. I really want them to avoid an actor who is twice Cavill's age; we've had that before in the films and I think it's time for a change. Lex should be a bit older than Superman but I don't want a guy who looks like he could be his father.

I agree. Denzel would do well but anybody in their 50s should be disqualified. 30s to mid 40s at the most. I think there's plenty of big name actors to choose from who can do Lex well.

__________________"Lets make one thing very clear here - Nolan's films are as faithful an adaptation as there is. It pays homage to its source material, remains true to its characters and above all else places the story first and foremost." - jmc

I'm fine with a black James Bond. James Bond is different from these comic book characters.

He's more iconic as a leading figure. But as a supporting character like Lois Lane or a villain? It's not on the same level. It's not as important. If they can change Bond and his skin then they can do it with Catwoman or Lex Luthor.

Skin means nothing. It's about how they portray the character, if they have all the qualities that are needed.

Now, changing them in the source material itself, in the comics, that's a big NO. But this is a different medium with films that are made for the general public more than we think.

__________________"Lets make one thing very clear here - Nolan's films are as faithful an adaptation as there is. It pays homage to its source material, remains true to its characters and above all else places the story first and foremost." - jmc

I really think if they wanted to make Luthor black in the 40s they'd have made him black.

That rather misses the point. By any modern standard, society in the 1940s was racist. Most literature was produced by whites for whites, comics being no exception, and consequently most characters featured were white. DC has been left with a very unrepresentative stable of characters, and effort are being made to address this (hence Cyborg in the Justice League).

Is it really your belief that we should still be trying to second guess the intentions of people writing in the 40s? Because their views today are out of date. The DC universe of the 1940s just doesn't look like the world the way it is now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith

When they have changed the races of major characters (Catwoman for instance) like you suggested, they've usually sucked and regardless are not remembered as the "iconic" (i.e "best) interpretation of that character.

I really don't think the tone of Halle Berry's skin was the problem with 'Catwoman'. Are you really suggesting that it was?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith

Julie Newmar will always be preferred to Eartha Kitt, Michele Pfeiffer to Halle Berry, because they are closer to and better represent the true versions of their characters.

I direct you to the answer above, but also note that Eartha Kitt has plenty of fans, and you are being a bit presumptuous. I strongly doubt that any sensible people prefer Pfeiffer's Catwoman to Berry's because Berry is black. That would be a massive insult to both actresses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith

How they look is 50% of being the character.

No, it really isn't. Do you honestly think the appeal of Lex Luthor as an antagonist is provided by his bald head or his pink skin?

Michael Caine looked nothing like Alfred from the comics. Tom Hardy looked nothing like Bane from the comics. Eckhardt's Harvey Dent had blonde hair, unlike the character from the comics. By the standards you are trying to apply, these performances were all 50% flawed. And yet, they were all fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith

It's simple. Lex Luthor isn't black. Clark Kent isn't a blonde. You can cast a blonde as Superman, but you damn sure better dye his hair black if you do. (they even gave Routh blue contacts to wear...although I'd have been fine with a brown eyed Superman since that's not THAT big a deal to ME, but it just shows how important that is to people)

What about Samuel Jackson's Nick Fury or Daniel Craig's James Bond? Were those characters ruined by being cast against physical type?

As I have said, I do believe that characters racial makeup should be retained where it carries an important cultural connotation (i.e. James Bond or Clark Kent). But you seem to be arguing that there is some over-arching quality derived from skin colour that trumps everything else. I can't agree with that.

__________________"Myth and high culture have much in common. Each is concerned to idealise the human condition, to lift it free from contingencies". -Sir Roger Scruton