I am not sure if Buemi's talents have been properly recognised by RBR and others in F1 but anyway one purpose it could serve would be to properly benchmark Gasly which Kyvat won't do. He's shown what he can fully do in competitive cars in WEC and F-E.

I am not sure if Buemi's talents have been properly recognised by RBR and others in F1 but anyway one purpose it could serve would be to properly benchmark Gasly which Kyvat won't do. He's shown what he can fully do in competitive cars in WEC and F-E.

I'm not sure I could disagree more with that idea. We know exactly what Kvyat can do in F1 right now, having seen him head-to-head with both Ricciardo and Sainz. It immediately gives them a very accurate gauge as to how he's doing. Put him alongside Buemi - a guy who hasn't even raced in F1 since 2011 - and even if Gasly performs better, all it does is show that he's able to outpace a guy who has been successful in FE and WEC. Which, while nice knowledge to have, isn't particularly relevant to how he's doing in F1.

Even if his performances haven't been great, Kvyat is a much, much better benchmark simply because he's been racing in F1 the last couple of years, something Buemi has not.

I am not sure if Buemi's talents have been properly recognised by RBR and others in F1 but anyway one purpose it could serve would be to properly benchmark Gasly which Kyvat won't do. He's shown what he can fully do in competitive cars in WEC and F-E.

I'm not sure I could disagree more with that idea. We know exactly what Kvyat can do in F1 right now, having seen him head-to-head with both Ricciardo and Sainz. It immediately gives them a very accurate gauge as to how he's doing. Put him alongside Buemi - a guy who hasn't even raced in F1 since 2011 - and even if Gasly performs better, all it does is show that he's able to outpace a guy who has been successful in FE and WEC. Which, while nice knowledge to have, isn't particularly relevant to how he's doing in F1.

Even if his performances haven't been great, Kvyat is a much, much better benchmark simply because he's been racing in F1 the last couple of years, something Buemi has not.

Fully agree and was going to reply in the same sense.As for the relevance of FE (or even WEC): probably not more than GP3, where Kvyat was a rookie winner. Either way lots of drivers have proven themselves in lower ranking series, or WEC, or anywhere, and definitely not all have succeeded in F1 when given the chance.

Lastly: Buemi did get 3 years in F1, so he had a shot to show himself. If he had been perceived to be worthy of keeping in F1, then they would have kept him.

I am not sure if Buemi's talents have been properly recognised by RBR and others in F1 but anyway one purpose it could serve would be to properly benchmark Gasly which Kyvat won't do. He's shown what he can fully do in competitive cars in WEC and F-E.

I'm not sure I could disagree more with that idea. We know exactly what Kvyat can do in F1 right now, having seen him head-to-head with both Ricciardo and Sainz. It immediately gives them a very accurate gauge as to how he's doing. Put him alongside Buemi - a guy who hasn't even raced in F1 since 2011 - and even if Gasly performs better, all it does is show that he's able to outpace a guy who has been successful in FE and WEC. Which, while nice knowledge to have, isn't particularly relevant to how he's doing in F1.

Even if his performances haven't been great, Kvyat is a much, much better benchmark simply because he's been racing in F1 the last couple of years, something Buemi has not.

Fully agree and was going to reply in the same sense.As for the relevance of FE (or even WEC): probably not more than GP3, where Kvyat was a rookie winner. Either way lots of drivers have proven themselves in lower ranking series, or WEC, or anywhere, and definitely not all have succeeded in F1 when given the chance.

Lastly: Buemi did get 3 years in F1, so he had a shot to show himself. If he had been perceived to be worthy of keeping in F1, then they would have kept him.

I won't disagree with the main points.But with the BIB the RBR junior program was really ruthless at the time he was at TR. They had a lot of talent bubbling up through the ranks in both the FIA series and FR with a stagnant flow up to the top team. So they discarded a couple of drivers that most mid-field teams wouldn't have just to see what the others could do at the top level. So 3 years was the most you were going to get unless Red Bull needed a new driver.

The problem for these guys was that for the most part since they relied on being brought along by the RB Jr. program most didn't have any, or little, other backing so weren't attractive to other midfield teams when they got dumped.

I'm think that had Webber retired while Buemi as at TR he'd have gotten that seat and would probably still be there.

I am not sure if Buemi's talents have been properly recognised by RBR and others in F1 but anyway one purpose it could serve would be to properly benchmark Gasly which Kyvat won't do. He's shown what he can fully do in competitive cars in WEC and F-E.

I'm not sure I could disagree more with that idea. We know exactly what Kvyat can do in F1 right now, having seen him head-to-head with both Ricciardo and Sainz. It immediately gives them a very accurate gauge as to how he's doing. Put him alongside Buemi - a guy who hasn't even raced in F1 since 2011 - and even if Gasly performs better, all it does is show that he's able to outpace a guy who has been successful in FE and WEC. Which, while nice knowledge to have, isn't particularly relevant to how he's doing in F1.

Even if his performances haven't been great, Kvyat is a much, much better benchmark simply because he's been racing in F1 the last couple of years, something Buemi has not.

Fully agree and was going to reply in the same sense.As for the relevance of FE (or even WEC): probably not more than GP3, where Kvyat was a rookie winner. Either way lots of drivers have proven themselves in lower ranking series, or WEC, or anywhere, and definitely not all have succeeded in F1 when given the chance.

Lastly: Buemi did get 3 years in F1, so he had a shot to show himself. If he had been perceived to be worthy of keeping in F1, then they would have kept him.

I won't disagree with the main points.But with the BIB the RBR junior program was really ruthless at the time he was at TR. They had a lot of talent bubbling up through the ranks in both the FIA series and FR with a stagnant flow up to the top team. So they discarded a couple of drivers that most mid-field teams wouldn't have just to see what the others could do at the top level. So 3 years was the most you were going to get unless Red Bull needed a new driver.

The problem for these guys was that for the most part since they relied on being brought along by the RB Jr. program most didn't have any, or little, other backing so weren't attractive to other midfield teams when they got dumped.

I'm think that had Webber retired while Buemi as at TR he'd have gotten that seat and would probably still be there.

I think they would have gone With Alguersuari rather than Buemi. IMO neither were quite good enough for the big team.

Only if Kubica can really last a race at full speed with only one fully functional arm/hand.

Well the teams can run 4 drivers per car per year, so what would they lose by signing him conditionally and keeping Di resta as a backup? He does well, all good. He struggles, swap Di resta in for the next race.

Even if Massa opted to retire and it became an empty seat, I don't really understand why Williams are so seriously considering di Resta for 2018. Yes, given the circumstances he did a decent job being parachuted in for Massa at Hungary but that doesn't really alter the fact that his time in F1 with Force India was average at best. Personally, I think this...

moby wrote:

mas wrote:

Only if Kubica can really last a race at full speed with only one fully functional arm/hand.

Well the teams can run 4 drivers per car per year, so what would they lose by signing him conditionally and keeping Di resta as a backup? He does well, all good. He struggles, swap Di resta in for the next race.

...would be the best solution. If you're going to drop Massa then you may as well sign Kubica and hope it works out, and if it doesn't the chances are di Resta has stayed on as a reserve driver and can be dropped in if needed.

Even if Massa opted to retire and it became an empty seat, I don't really understand why Williams are so seriously considering di Resta for 2018. Yes, given the circumstances he did a decent job being parachuted in for Massa at Hungary but that doesn't really alter the fact that his time in F1 with Force India was average at best. Personally, I think this...

I wouldn't agree with that. I thought he did a good job at FI, good enough to warrant a seat. He was dropped for being a bit of a bellend, not for his results

And with Hulk it wasn't like the pace gap was very big either. Di Resta was a good driver. IMO he was better than Massa is now although as Massa has no real benchmark it's impossible to judge for sure.

This sounds harsh but I do get frustrated that year after year Massa and Kimi get re signed while more interesting drivers can't get a break. Teams are so cautious now with their driver choices. We had few team moves this season and will get even fewer next.

This sounds harsh but I do get frustrated that year after year Massa and Kimi get re signed while more interesting drivers can't get a break. Teams are so cautious now with their driver choices. We had few team moves this season and will get even fewer next.

It's been pretty much OK, no? The past three seasons we've seen an influx of young talent - Verstappen, Sainz, Ocon, Vandoorne, Wehrlein, Stroll, Palmer: all junior champions that reached F1 through good results in the feeder series.So that's looking at about a 30% turnover in 3 seasons. And next year Leclerc will almost certainly join the grid, probably Gasly as well and maybe Giovinazzi.

I think we couldn't really ask for more. Frijns will probably always be The One That Got Away, but for the rest I think those who really deserved it have been getting their break.

This sounds harsh but I do get frustrated that year after year Massa and Kimi get re signed while more interesting drivers can't get a break. Teams are so cautious now with their driver choices. We had few team moves this season and will get even fewer next.

It's been pretty much OK, no? The past three seasons we've seen an influx of young talent - Verstappen, Sainz, Ocon, Vandoorne, Wehrlein, Stroll, Palmer: all junior champions that reached F1 through good results in the feeder series.So that's looking at about a 30% turnover in 3 seasons. And next year Leclerc will almost certainly join the grid, probably Gasly as well and maybe Giovinazzi.

I think we couldn't really ask for more. Frijns will probably always be The One That Got Away, but for the rest I think those who really deserved it have been getting their break.

Yeah you're probably right in away. Possibly just the driver's I would like to see more of dropping out. For example Wehrlein won't be on the grid next year. I think he has way more to offer than another season of Raikkonen or Massa.

This sounds harsh but I do get frustrated that year after year Massa and Kimi get re signed while more interesting drivers can't get a break. Teams are so cautious now with their driver choices. We had few team moves this season and will get even fewer next.

It's been pretty much OK, no? The past three seasons we've seen an influx of young talent - Verstappen, Sainz, Ocon, Vandoorne, Wehrlein, Stroll, Palmer: all junior champions that reached F1 through good results in the feeder series.So that's looking at about a 30% turnover in 3 seasons. And next year Leclerc will almost certainly join the grid, probably Gasly as well and maybe Giovinazzi.

I think we couldn't really ask for more. Frijns will probably always be The One That Got Away, but for the rest I think those who really deserved it have been getting their break.

Yeah you're probably right in away. Possibly just the driver's I would like to see more of dropping out. For example Wehrlein won't be on the grid next year. I think he has way more to offer than another season of Raikkonen or Massa.

I think so too, but the reasoning of those teams is probably along the lines of no star driver available, and Wehrlein not seen as one that will turn into one, so they keep Raikkonen and Massa around until they get someone who they suspect will really amount to something.

I mean, even Mercedes didn't take Wehrlein for 2017 nor 2018. That's pretty damning for Wehrlein, and one might suspect his F1 career could come to an end this year already...

Kimi in particular has a very big following. Unless a youngster brings something to the team I can see why they keep him on. He is not doing a 'bad' job, just not challenging, which may well be another reason they keep him

Anyone but Massa please, such a waste of a seat. He's had his time, had a crack at the Championship and spent far longer in a Ferrari than his talent really deserved. Let's given Di Resta or Kubica another shot. Even Palmer would be better IMO.

Anyone but Massa please, such a waste of a seat. He's had his time, had a crack at the Championship and spent far longer in a Ferrari than his talent really deserved. Let's given Di Resta or Kubica another shot. Even Palmer would be better IMO.

I was with you until that part, but Palmer has been the biggest failure of modern F1. I don't think we've seen a driver so consistently off his teammate's pace since at least 2014, when Ericsson was shockingly bad for the early part of the year, and probably even longer ago. Palmer has had his chance to prove he belonged in F1, and he's failed.

I agree with you on Massa, however. It's been a while since we've seen any sort of spark from him, and I don't believe he's produced anything that could be classed as an impressive performance since at least 2014. I'd like to see Kubica get another chance; I was never very impressed with di Resta.

Anyone but Massa please, such a waste of a seat. He's had his time, had a crack at the Championship and spent far longer in a Ferrari than his talent really deserved. Let's given Di Resta or Kubica another shot. Even Palmer would be better IMO.

I was with you until that part, but Palmer has been the biggest failure of modern F1. I don't think we've seen a driver so consistently off his teammate's pace since at least 2014, when Ericsson was shockingly bad for the early part of the year, and probably even longer ago. Palmer has had his chance to prove he belonged in F1, and he's failed.

I agree with you on Massa, however. It's been a while since we've seen any sort of spark from him, and I don't believe he's produced anything that could be classed as an impressive performance since at least 2014. I'd like to see Kubica get another chance; I was never very impressed with di Resta.

Palmer is a long way off Hulk granted but he does have a few things going for him.

1 - He seemed to be matching KMags performance after a poor start to last season, showing he does improve with time.2 - There have been times when he has been on Hulks pace, just not consistently. Poor luck and reliability haven't helped his cause3 - He did win GP2 after several seasons of trying. Obviously winning it after a year or two is more impressive but again, he did show improvement.4 - Ericsson now seems to be matching the highly rated Wehrlein, at least on single lap pace.

If it was my choice I'd get Kobayashi back in F1 but sadly it isn't. Palmer is at least a GP2 champion. Id have him on par with drivers like Piquet Jr., Sutil and Maldonado and better than a fair few recent drivers. He's hardly Karthikeyan, Yamamoto or Friesacher.

Anyone but Massa please, such a waste of a seat. He's had his time, had a crack at the Championship and spent far longer in a Ferrari than his talent really deserved. Let's given Di Resta or Kubica another shot. Even Palmer would be better IMO.

I was with you until that part, but Palmer has been the biggest failure of modern F1. I don't think we've seen a driver so consistently off his teammate's pace since at least 2014, when Ericsson was shockingly bad for the early part of the year, and probably even longer ago. Palmer has had his chance to prove he belonged in F1, and he's failed.

I agree with you on Massa, however. It's been a while since we've seen any sort of spark from him, and I don't believe he's produced anything that could be classed as an impressive performance since at least 2014. I'd like to see Kubica get another chance; I was never very impressed with di Resta.

Palmer is a long way off Hulk granted but he does have a few things going for him.

1 - He seemed to be matching KMags performance after a poor start to last season, showing he does improve with time.2 - There have been times when he has been on Hulks pace, just not consistently. Poor luck and reliability haven't helped his cause3 - He did win GP2 after several seasons of trying. Obviously winning it after a year or two is more impressive but again, he did show improvement.4 - Ericsson now seems to be matching the highly rated Wehrlein, at least on single lap pace.

If it was my choice I'd get Kobayashi back in F1 but sadly it isn't. Palmer is at least a GP2 champion. Id have him on par with drivers like Piquet Jr., Sutil and Maldonado and better than a fair few recent drivers. He's hardly Karthikeyan, Yamamoto or Friesacher.

Sutil and Maldanado put in way more competetive performances than Palmer. Sutil in particular. A few of the FI's he drove were about as competetive as Palmer's and he was a regular points scorer. The Piquet comparison is probably fair.

Rumours going that Gasly would drive this weekend instead of Kvyat, in order to evaluate him for a 2018 seat. He would race both in Malaysia and in Japan, but then go back to contest the Super Formula finale in which he's very much in the title race.

For the next Grands Prix, Pierre Gasly will be driving for Scuderia Toro Rosso, standing in for Daniil Kvyat, alongside Carlos Sainz. Gasly, one of the Red Bull Junior Programme drivers, has been racing in Japan this year in the Super Formula category. The 2016 GP2 Champion finished second in last Sunday's race, having won the two previous rounds. The 21 year old will therefore get his chance to prove himself in F1. This is not a case of goodbye for our Daniil, as he still remains part of the Red Bull Family.

Franz Tost:

"Scuderia Toro Rosso was established by Red Bull to bring youngsters from its Junior Programme into Formula 1 and that's what we are doing by giving Pierre this chance. He is the next in line at Red Bull for this opportunity and he has shown that he deserves it, having taken the 2016 GP2 title and this year being very competitive in the Super Formula series in Japan. He really has a valid chance of winning the title, as he is only half a point behind the leader. The driver switch gives us an opportunity to make a more informed decision regarding our 2018 driver choices. For a variety of reasons, some of them due to technical problems, but others being mistakes of his own making, Daniil Kvyat has not really shown his true potential so far this year, which is why we are standing him down for the next races. This will give us the opportunity to evaluate Pierre on track during a proper race weekend."

Is Kvyat's career over?

Last edited by TheBlackFlag on Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

I feel bad for Daniil. He showed great speed and potential before his precipitous fall from the top team and now out. That being said, he hasn't performed and doesn't seem to be returning to his previous form.

Does anyone know if he comes with significant sponsorship dollars? I think that is the only way he gets another F1 ride.

That's gotta hurt for Kvyat. Unless Gasly bombs I don't really see a way back for him

Siao7 wrote:

How is this not a case of goodbye for our Daniil?

I still think he'll be at Toro Rosso next year simply because Red Bull have no other junior driver ready to step up, and of the two Honda junior drivers, only Matsushita could possibly end 2017 with enough Superlicense points to be able to compete in F1 next year. So unless a) he has an amazing finish to the F2 season, b) the FIA give him permission to race in F1 despite not having enough Superlicense points, or c) Red Bull bring someone else into their junior program and immediately give them the Toro Rosso seat, then really they don't have any option to replace Kvyat.

That's gotta hurt for Kvyat. Unless Gasly bombs I don't really see a way back for him

Siao7 wrote:

How is this not a case of goodbye for our Daniil?

I still think he'll be at Toro Rosso next year simply because Red Bull have no other junior driver ready to step up, and of the two Honda junior drivers, only Matsushita could possibly end 2017 with enough Superlicense points to be able to compete in F1 next year. So unless a) he has an amazing finish to the F2 season, b) the FIA give him permission to race in F1 despite not having enough Superlicense points, or c) Red Bull bring someone else into their junior program and immediately give them the Toro Rosso seat, then really they don't have any option to replace Kvyat.

I hope they go with option (c). They've done it on the rare occasion in the past

That's gotta hurt for Kvyat. Unless Gasly bombs I don't really see a way back for him

Siao7 wrote:

How is this not a case of goodbye for our Daniil?

I still think he'll be at Toro Rosso next year simply because Red Bull have no other junior driver ready to step up, and of the two Honda junior drivers, only Matsushita could possibly end 2017 with enough Superlicense points to be able to compete in F1 next year. So unless a) he has an amazing finish to the F2 season, b) the FIA give him permission to race in F1 despite not having enough Superlicense points, or c) Red Bull bring someone else into their junior program and immediately give them the Toro Rosso seat, then really they don't have any option to replace Kvyat.

I hope they go with option (c). They've done it on the rare occasion in the past

Thing is... who would they pick? Aside from poaching Norris from McLaren, I can't see anyone in the junior series with enough points who would be that much better than Kvyat.

That's gotta hurt for Kvyat. Unless Gasly bombs I don't really see a way back for him

Siao7 wrote:

How is this not a case of goodbye for our Daniil?

I still think he'll be at Toro Rosso next year simply because Red Bull have no other junior driver ready to step up, and of the two Honda junior drivers, only Matsushita could possibly end 2017 with enough Superlicense points to be able to compete in F1 next year. So unless a) he has an amazing finish to the F2 season, b) the FIA give him permission to race in F1 despite not having enough Superlicense points, or c) Red Bull bring someone else into their junior program and immediately give them the Toro Rosso seat, then really they don't have any option to replace Kvyat.

I hope they go with option (c). They've done it on the rare occasion in the past

Worth remembering RBR are going to need an engine soon? Some sort of engine and driver deal maybe?