Yep, agree with that.I like what Shihan John King (Gavins Dad)calls the dojo setup..."...a loving dictatorship."Which leads to...

..Oldman, I find that quite an extraordinary claim.Are you saying that in all of the classes that you have trained at, there has never been an enforcement of discilpline using some kind of exercise "punishment"?

My first sensei thought he was a Marine DI. Hour long phsycial drill punishments was the way he tought he had control. To be honest I never seen it help with the promblems. If anyting it only made it worst. In my school if a student is in trouble we go to the office to talk. Good talks are in front of the class, bad are in the office. Phyical punishment are the floor almost never happen, and the few time it has it's short and not carried to excess.

All in all I think there are better ways to handle students then by the sensei losing control of his templer

McSensei, I'm really trying to think of situations like you are discribing. Certainly not inrecent years. I had something happen to me in 1979 if that counts. I was attending a class at a TKD school. I do not even remember the teachers name. It was in Champagne Illinois. During the class (which happened to be my first) the teacher was demonstrating a technique. As I listened I put my hands on my hips. He wheeled around striking down on both my forearms with his fists. DIIIISSSRESPCT!!! he bellowed. I had no idea that that was considered disrepectful nor had I been informed. I was also told not to speak to the instructor. I was to ask any questions to more experienced students. It was my first and last class under that instructor. I'm very easy going as an instructor. People can usually tell by my demeanor if it is time to get serious. What kind of thing does a student do that they would need to be punished?

This is literally a "no brainer" issue. I am a grown up, and study by informed choice. There are many ways to teach and unfortunately the militant-infantile is one method sadly regarded as being "appropriate" in some places....

If the instruction is FEAR based at its core ... that is not genuine learning... that is survival. They are similar but very different creatures. Discipline is a group imposed basically a "fear" environment. SELF-DISCIPLINE is a choice which individuals make and choose to follow as a group.

The first moment a teacher "punishes me" without severe and extraordinary CAUSE... one should leave! You are not there to be punished, you are there to learn. I do not learn from an infallible demigod, I learn from myself, my classmates, and our instructor. There are appropriate methods and methods used by angry, mentally unbalanced people. Hopefully we find the former rather than the latter.

I do not require the boot camp route... I have a brain. I am confidant it works for some, perhaps even many... but it is not necessary and largely avoidable I contend by those who understand teaching. Perhaps I am mistaken, it will not be the last time...

I think the last time I saw an instructor disciplining a class was in a capoerra class. We had to do cartwheels down the hall and those who'd finished were just chatting and longing around. A lot of them were thinking of Capoerra as a fun, trendy form of dance... perhaps not as MA. Well the instructor was a KF man and didn't like this laid back hippy attitude. The next minute we were all standing in horse stance with our arms in a cross-block. That lasted until the whole group had finished cartwheeling. It got his point across... BUT NOBODY COMPLAINED.

I think most serious students, even ones who only do MA for a hobby will accept that there is a time when they must be disciplined by a sensei/sabum/sifu. However, this should mean that the discipline is given in a way which respects the student, not humilates. The student is free to walk out and never return, so the instructor should bear that in mind too.

Edited by trevek (02/25/0606:24 AM)

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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

I'm a great believer in forging the spirit through hard training if you have a good Instructor he'll only be doing this hard type of discipline to bring the best out in his students, if you have an Instructor that seems to be bullying or even enjoying making his students suffer then i suggest you leave and find something more suitable, my Instructor Shihan John King has put us through some lessons which have seemed like a major ordeal but he'll always explain the purpose of the session and at no point have i ever felt bullied or victimised,

I've only "punished" two of my students in the time I have been teaching. One is my uchisesu, Drew. He did something severly out of line, then decided to challenge my authority in calling him on it. That took an attitude-adjustment, and one I have only had to do once, luckily. I hated having to do that to Drew, because he's like my younger brother [he's actually my cousin].

The other was a student I teach during the day at my home. His name is Mike. He is a homeschool student, and was using me as a loop of miscommunication with his parents, and didn't do any of his work for nearly two weeks. I scolded him, in private, to a great extend. I also told him if it happened again, it would be the last time he trained with me.

As for BEING punished, when I was 8, in my TKD filled youth, at one of mt gradings, I was watching one of the more senior belts test and, while I do not remember what I said, or who I said it to, I was made to do like 35 push-ups after the test...after I had already changed into my street clothes, which were actually dress clothes, because my parents were weird like that when I was a kid.