We've been on a good path of openness... Less than 2 months in. WH has many personal issues to sort out as underlying reasons for the affair. I know he is feeling overwhelmed, powerless and afraid. I asked a couple questions last night and told him where I was at for minimum expectations, and suggested he also think and present me with what he wants/needs/hopes for. Pretty much everything on my list is being worked towards since DDay, with the exception of eliminating a professional relationship where flirtations have taken place. WH shut down, was unwilling to discuss, and said if that was a deal breaker for me, then it's time to walk.
We have not yet stayed apart, but I packed some things to stay elsewhere for at least a few days to give us both space. If this is the right move, then I need some encouragement because all I want to do is run back home.

DDay-sept 2013
1LTA(5yrs) plus many ONS
Divorcing.
No kids

Posts: 356 | Registered: Oct 2013

TheAmazingWondertwin♀ 40769Member # 40769

Posted: 4:18 PM, October 17th (Thursday), 2013

I am so sorry you are going through this. I wish this could be easier.
I don't want to offer too much in the way of advice, since I am just at barely three moths myself.
But one thing I have read here often is that if you say it's a deal breaker... It is. He said for you to walk.
Ask yourself this- are you willing to compromise? If you don't leave for a few days, what is that telling him about your expectations? Are they deal breakers or more like suggestions that you hope he considers?
Take sometime to think this through and listen to the wonderful advice that others will offer.
I know this is so horribly difficult right now- know that you are not alone.
In my opinion, you deserve to be heard and your expectations should not be " if you feel like it."
You did not ask for this. You do not deserve to be treated as if your wishes and needs are unimportant.
I send you hugs and strength.

Thank you, I needed to hear that. I left under the pre-tense we needed some time apart. I am so mad he won't even discuss it, but I know he's putting up walls to shield himself from hurt. I know after saying that, and then packing a few bags I need to stand my ground or I will be a total pushover. It's so hard. We have MC booked but he's going on his own today. All I want is for him to come find me and beg me to come home. I know that's wishful thinking...being vulnerable is foreign to him.

DDay-sept 2013
1LTA(5yrs) plus many ONS
Divorcing.
No kids

Posts: 356 | Registered: Oct 2013

Rebreather♀ 30817Member # 30817

Posted: 4:23 PM, October 17th (Thursday), 2013

If he would prefer to end your marriage than to end an inappropriate friendship...then I think you made the right choice.

Reconciling is hard work, with many ups and downs. One thing I know for sure, is to find your guns and stick to them.

Time away is just that. Time away. It doesn't have to mean anything more than that. Go dark, clear your head, and see where you land. It's up to him to become the man you deserve.

Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Rec'd.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 7148 | Registered: Jan 2011

karmahappens♀ 35846Member # 35846

Posted: 4:23 PM, October 17th (Thursday), 2013

Hey Roar

First, I am sorry you are here and hurting right now. This definitely sucks.

To me, this

WH shut down, was unwilling to discuss, and said if that was a deal breaker for me, then it's time to walk.

Is a cop out. Is he looking to use you as an excuse that the marriage failed? SHE decided to go type thing? Or is he really not sure what to do.

I would let him know you are there to fight, he can either stop sulking like a child, pull up his big boy pants and start to get real or HE can leave.

I would not leave my home because he is unwilling to face the consequences of his actions.

You did nothing wrong and if he wants to get to a point where R is even a consideration he needs to do a lot of work and soul searching.

Your gut will lead you right now, the only wrong choice you can make, IMO, is to not be true to you. True to your "self" ie...don't take any abuse/sell yourself out/beg/plead KWIM?

You deserve to be allowed to hurt and be heard right now, let him listen and do the work needed before you begin to trust again.

Strength to you right now. It's really difficult in the beginning.

“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3988 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts

karmahappens♀ 35846Member # 35846

Posted: 4:27 PM, October 17th (Thursday), 2013

Oh...I missed this

If he would prefer to end your marriage than to end an inappropriate friendship

I would let him go...he needs a reality slap.

I didn't realize you already left. I wouldn't go back until he was at work, then I would hefty his stuff to the door.

I did it to my H. Left all his shit on his parents lawn

“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Thank you.... He would leave for time apart, but he works from home and I believe him being there is important for his child (my stepchild) who will be with us for a few days.

Part of me feels like he needs a reality check, part of me feels like there's been good progress in a short amount of time and I should not expect everything to change overnight, so long as there's progress in the right direction. But, I told him its my minimum, he said he can't do that (his business relies heavily on this relationship, but I think there are always other ways) and I said it was time for space.... So I need to stick to my guns.

Should I not push and accept steps in the right direction? I think at some point he may accept my request, but is feeling completely powerless which is a struggle/issue of his. Am I sabotaging?

DDay-sept 2013
1LTA(5yrs) plus many ONS
Divorcing.
No kids

Posts: 356 | Registered: Oct 2013

karmahappens♀ 35846Member # 35846

Posted: 4:55 PM, October 17th (Thursday), 2013

Should I not push and accept steps in the right direction?

This is a choice you will have to make.

I could not be content with a husband who was only willing to fight for my marriage depending on HIS comfort level.

He can do some work, he can be somewhat faithful, he can somewhat be honest...

You deserve it all,that's what you need to realize.

“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3988 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts

karmahappens♀ 35846Member # 35846

Posted: 5:01 PM, October 17th (Thursday), 2013

slight t/j

Wondertwin

Karma... I think I love you.
Hefty bag. Lol

When we talk about wearing our bitch boots we are not kidding. Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.

End t/j

“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3988 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts

Jrazz♀ 31349Member # 31349

Posted: 5:02 PM, October 17th (Thursday), 2013

The thing is, it's not "good progress" if he's meeting 80% of the boundaries but utterly failing at a clear dealbreaker.

It's like going from complete kleptomaniac to only stealing one really expensive car. It's still wrong, despite how clean the rest of his record is.

I know that his efforts outside of this make things really confusing, but if you look at the whole package he's still not willing to do everything within his power to treat you with the respect you deserve.

If this were an issue of folding socks it would be one thing. Not willing to give up a "professional" relationship? At best he still has deep seeded issues about boundaries to work out. At worst, he doesn't get it at all and thinks he can turn in an incomplete assignment and still pass.

Stand your ground, and take small steps towards the right path so that the journey doesn't seem as daunting.

(((roar)))

"It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding." - Upton Sinclair

Posts: 23912 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California

TheAmazingWondertwin♀ 40769Member # 40769

Posted: 5:13 PM, October 17th (Thursday), 2013

Just as a secondary thought-

Especially after reading the comments about progress a long as its comfortable.

He hurt you. He messed up horribly. This entire process is going to be painful and picking an choosing based on what he's comfortable with is not okay.

IMO- he should be saying "I will do ANYTHING because that is how much you mean to me"
If not meeting your expectations because it might be "tough" for him is his idea of making progress, then maybe he doesn't fully realize the extent of the damage he has done. And that is no bueno. Not good.
The process is wry uncomfortable and very hard and very long- and no part of it is easy.
Ask yourself this question- what has he done - really truly done- that puts him in an uncomfortable or painful position? What has he changed, sacrificed, done to show you that you are truly worth it to him?

Stand your ground. Take care of yourself. I understand compassion and working together for R- but maybe don't worry so much about his pain or discomfort right now. Remember, you didn't cause it.

OK. People are going to wonder if it's really sisoon writing this. It is.

I don't understand your sitch well enough to be sure, but I believe your moving out might have been unnecessary.

IMO professional relationships are different from social ones. Sometimes R can work without killing a professional relationship.

When you said you wanted the relationship ended, did you mean right away? What's the downside of ending it? What's the upside of not ending it? Would certain boundaries make the relationship safe?

If it's a deal breaker, so be it. If it doesn't have to be, though, it would be a shame to lose your M over this.

It's too bad you skipped the MC session - that was a perfect opportunity to find out if this was miscommunication or a real problem with your H stepping up.

fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 70 (22 in my head), Married 45+, together since 1965, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
I'm not an exemplar. I share my own experience because it's all I know.

Posts: 11875 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area

roarlouder♀ 40921Member # 40921

Posted: 5:56 PM, October 17th (Thursday), 2013

Good points. I can be very hot headed and we deal with things completely different- me head on, immediately and aggressive. He takes his time and thinks through. So we didn't even get to a conversation of what/how the prof relationship could be managed. This was all about 18 hrs ago...He should be bending over backwards. Up until this he's done all I've asked and taken steps on his own.

Have any of you had experience with setting aside time to talk about the A? I talk things to death, and that's ok if that's what I need, but maybe it shouldn't always be to him. For 6 weeks straight it's pretty much all we've talked about-all day, middle of the night, etc. I know he's dealing with his own issues...maybe I've set him up to react this way. I wonder if it wouldn't be useful and more productive to set aside specific time to discuss it, and find other outlets outside those times.

Either way, I will be sleeping elsewhere tonight otherwise I am a big pushover.

DDay-sept 2013
1LTA(5yrs) plus many ONS
Divorcing.
No kids

Posts: 356 | Registered: Oct 2013

TheAmazingWondertwin♀ 40769Member # 40769

Posted: 5:16 AM, October 18th (Friday), 2013

Me again- :)
I know that at about 8 weeks, I actually told him to just talk and tell me what he wanted to say.
Anger, frustration, grief, whatever.
And I listened. And only responded if he asked me too.
I learned a lot and he was able to feel like I was really there for R.
He told me that he was struggling to but felt so bad because I had the trump card. Meaning, no matter what he said he was wrong because he cheated. We decided that for the last two months we had been just trying to stop the bleeding- me crying, taking at him endlessly and ALL the time.
So inlet him talk. Without interrupting and without laying blame. He did so well. Told me his hurts and worries and fears and how this was hard for him. It was hard to listen to at some points, and very hard for me to NOT jump down his throat a few times- but in the end, we both felt so much better. This was just my experience, but that's all I have to go on.
Just know that nothing is decided- you just took some space.

I think I have the same problem sometimes. I am a talker. My Bf is rather closed off, in general, with his deep feelings and emotions. I have mentioned to you before that he has a huge wall around his heart.
You are right about needing to just ask him to say what he feels and to sit and listen with no response. We were talking last night and I could tell he was torn up. I kept asking him what was wrong and he said "nothing". Finally I just said that if he wanted this work he needed to be willing to tell me what he is thinking and feeling and that we never really talked about that sort of thing. He opened up a little and said how shitty and terrible he felt, how he didn't deserve to be with me, and that he can't believe he did this. It isn't a lot, and he has said it before, but I'm glad he finally said something. I feel like the next step might be to ask him a bit more. Why did he do it? (asked this before but only on the day he told me), aside from this, why doesn't he think he deserve me? what does he think I can do to help him and what is he willing to do for me?
The hardest part for me is going to be to just sit and listen...

Patience is the key to joy

Posts: 49 | Registered: Oct 2013

Raven96♀ 40298Member # 40298

Posted: 7:18 AM, October 18th (Friday), 2013

Obviously there is an issue with this "professional" relationship that makes you uncomfortable. I don't think that, given the circumstances, you are out of line when you ask him to eliminate it. He obviously has boundary issues, and if there is flirting going on he needs to stop! Shutting down, being unwilling to discuss, and telling you it's time to walk if it is a deal breaker are NOT the signs that this is just a "professional relationship."

Maybe he can't eliminate it relationship completely, but it sounds like some definite walls need to be built in order to make you more comfortable. Being less than 2 months out, everything is going to seem threatening to you. HE needs to do the work in making you feel secure and be willing to do whatever it takes. It doesn't sound like he cares about consequences when it comes to this relationship, which makes me wonder why.

I don't think you should be the one to leave, though, but I understand about the stepson. I think once your stepson is done visiting then your WS needs to find another place to work. He shouldn't have the convenience of home when he is the one putting it at risk.

(((Roarlouder))).

Marriage isn't a test, so why cheat?

Posts: 379 | Registered: Aug 2013

Jrazz♀ 31349Member # 31349

Posted: 12:37 PM, October 18th (Friday), 2013

I wonder if it wouldn't be useful and more productive to set aside specific time to discuss it, and find other outlets outside those times.

Looking at this separately from his questionable work friend, I say yes. Absolutely yes.

My FWH has great difficulty with conflict, so he gets particularly resentful if he feels "bombarded" with questions. Some days I really did come at him at all times, but it turns out that ANY time he was not expecting to think about things caused him immediate stress. Picking a time to talk about the A and go over questions helped him lower his defenses and participate with an open mind.

The key to this is that everyone has to make good on the project. The WS has to be present and honest during the conversation, and the BS has to wait until the agreed upon time to ask questions.

It can be a great thing, if done right.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 12:37 PM, October 18th (Friday)]

"It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding." - Upton Sinclair

Posts: 23912 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California

roarlouder♀ 40921Member # 40921

Posted: 4:19 PM, October 18th (Friday), 2013

Thx for the advice. I stuck to my guns. He came to talk after counselling. Apologized for shutting down, saying he was done. Said he acted unfairly; I am the hurt one and he should bend over backwards to do whatever he can to fix it. He said if I needed that professional relationship to end, so be it. I think my leaving for the night was a wake up, and the therapist gave him some tough love and helped him see what I am feeling (why I need to ask so many questions, etc), as well as how to manage or eliminate the relationship. So....progress. We are going to try putting time aside each day for it. I am going to journal more, etc. and come up with a realistic plan to manage the professional relationship...