Thanks Pete. The dough ball weighed 320.25 grams. I used the dough calculator for a 14" pie. I stretched this one out to about 14 3/4". I think I could have gone a little bit bigger if I had a bigger stone and peel. I'll go for .075 next time. I really like the lightness and crispness of the crust. I liked it so much, that I consumed 3/4 of the pie. I wuz a bad boy!

Nick,

Dave (wahoo88) may well be right about what you might end up with if you use a lower thickness factor value. But as part of your ongoing education on the NY style, I think it is worth trying a lower thickness factor if only to rule that out for future pizzas. That way, you won't ask yourself time and again what effect a lower thickness factor would have on your pizzas. I also think that at some point you might want to try making a larger size pizza that is more emblematic of the NY style. You won't be able to do that with your current stone but if you have a pizza screen that is around 16" or higher, you could use that screen for test purposes to see if you can make a large pizza with a thinner crust than you have used thus far. I believe that I cited Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg20965.html#msg20965 before, but that post discusses how to do this in the context of a standard home oven with a pizza stone. With these tests out of the way, you can then consider what path forward you want to take for future pizzas. For example, it might mean getting a steel plate of a size that can accommodate larger NY style pizzas than the 14" pizzas you have been making.

That was very informative Pete, Thanks. Dave may be right, but as in all my pie attempts, I like to go from one end to the spectrum to the other. That way I can find what works best for me. Besides, it's fun to push the limit on what can be done. It's all about the learning. I will try a lower thickness factor just to see what happens. I seem to like this thickness. it's crispy and still a little chewy. I left out the VWG this time because I think I understand that it does increase the chewiness, and I thought mine was a little too chewy for my tastes. I had read that post about using a pizza screen. I just measured my oven, and I can use a 16" screen. I might try using unglazed tiles and custom fit them to the oven. I am using a 14 inch peel, but can get a 16" for about $20. I would like to go bigger at a later date when I get my technique down a little better. Have a happy 4th everyone!

This was a 14" pie. The dough procedure was the same as the last pie except, I went for a .075 TF. The dough ball weighed 326 grams. I made a hybrid tomato pie. I used one half of the 2% mozz on the bottom. I then placed some Johnsonville Italian sausage which I had doctored with some spices. Then another layer of cheese. The Classico crushed tomatoes was placed on top. I learned from my last pie and will not use sauce I had froze. On that pie the tomatoes released all their water and I ended up with a soupy mess. I used a tip that Chicago Bob talked about in another thread. I drained the maters for about 10 minutes before using. The pie cooked for 6 minutes. I think if I went any thinner, the skin would not bear it's own weight. The bottom of the crust did not brown as much as the last pie, but was very nice and crispy. The edge was crispy but had a nice and light chew. Not sure I like it this thin, maybe shoot for a TF of .080 next time. I think it is as close to the local NY style joint I like. These experiments were great for learning how to make a NY style pie, and I gained a lot of good info from my trials, and of course, help from my friends on the forum.

So, after thinking about it, and eating the rest of the leftovers on the last pie, I think I like the .075 TF. I did this the same as the last pie except, I added 1/2 tsp VWG. It seemed to make it a little more chewy. I think I like the crust better without it. The dough ball weighed 327 grams. The ball temp was 79 degrees when it went into the fridge for the three day rest. I thought I would do a basic pepperoni pie this time.

I moved the stone to the lowest level in the stove for more bottom heat. I cooked it at 550 degrees for six minutes again. The last minute I turned on the convection fan to brown the crust. I used Classsico crushed tomatoes for the sauce. I drained them for 5 minutes then put them in the blender for 10 seconds. No watery sauce. Yea!!! It was a good pie, and the crust was crispy and flavorful. Not sure what I could do to improve it, except go for a 16 incher.

So, do you guys think I am getting closer to a NY pie? If not, what can I do to improve my technique?

Thanks Pete! Do you think I am in the ball park for this style? I have never had the pleasure of a true NY pie. I am trying to get close to the NY style joint in town, but not for sure if he is doing it correctly. I am going to buy a pie from there and post it on this thread to see if you think it represents a true NY pizza. They only sell 14" and 16" pies, and single 14" pieces. I am using KABF for my pizza. Sam's used to carry high gluten flour, but the last time I was there, they have changed. I have tried to find a higher protein flour, but to no avail. I am happy with my results, and if I can never closely replicate a Ny pie, I am still happy with what I have achieved. I want to thank you for your time and help. I am going to try a Chi style thin crust pizza soon. I need to ask Chicago Bob some questions before I start on this new adventure. Thanks again!

Nick,I am all the way over here in NC but just last week my Sam's club added to the shelves the Bakers and Chefs green colored bag of "high gluten, bleached and bromated" flour.(just in time to coincide with my new low carb diet )Anyway, don't know how long it's been since you were last out to the Sam's club an thought I'd give you my report.

Sam's carried the high Gluten flour until about a month ago. They rearranged the commercial food area in the store, and since then they stopped carrying the High gluten flour. They do have some Baker and Chef's flour. It says it's good for pizza and bread, but there is no mention of it being high gluten on the bag anymore. I have to go over there today to get my meds, so Ill check again and look closely at the label and report back with my findings.

While I have spent a lot of time looking at and analyzing NY style dough formulations, I would not consider myself a true expert on that style. That can only come from eating a lot of the real thing as sold in places like NYC. However, your pizzas look like they are getting closer and closer to the NY street style pizza, especially as you have reduced the thickness factor and omitted the vital wheat gluten. To move closer to an authentic NY style, you would perhaps have to go to a bromated flour with a relatively high protein content. Many of the NY pizzerias that specialize in the NY style use a high gluten flour, such as the All Trumps with a protein content of around 14.2%, but you can go with something in the 13+% range and also get good results, but with less chewiness and better keeping qualities than you would get with a higher protein flour. As Dave mentioned, another step in the direction of authenticity would be to go with a larger size pizza, typically 18". I realize that that size might not be possible with your current oven and stone setup. You would perhaps have to go with a stone or steel plate if the size needed to make an 18" pizza would fit in your oven with the door closed.

As for the Baker's and Chef's flour at Sam's, you will want to take note of everything said on the bag of that flour in terms of protein/gluten and intended uses.

if 18" will fit in your oven, but your stone or steel isn't that big, simply start your pie on a screen, and then slide it off the screen directly onto the stone once the crust sets a bit. I generally can slide my pie off the screen and onto the stone after about 4-5 minutes, then it needs a few more minutes to finish. Super high gluten pies can be ok when they first come out of the oven, but when they cool they get tough. Eat them up fresh, because they don't make good leftovers.

Sam's carried the high Gluten flour until about a month ago. They rearranged the commercial food area in the store, and since then they stopped carrying the High gluten flour. They do have some Baker and Chef's flour. It says it's good for pizza and bread, but there is no mention of it being high gluten on the bag anymore. I have to go over there today to get my meds, so Ill check again and look closely at the label and report back with my findings.

I recently had the red bag "good for bread and pizza" flour...it was discussed in my thread about how to measure/do the math to find protein % and I believe the red bag was figured to be only 10%.

Serving size (30g) divided by protein amount(3g) = 10%....you should see those numbers on the bag Nick.

if 18" will fit in your oven, but your stone or steel isn't that big, simply start your pie on a screen, and then slide it off the screen directly onto the stone once the crust sets a bit. I generally can slide my pie off the screen and onto the stone after about 4-5 minutes, then it needs a few more minutes to finish.

Dave,

I used to do it the same way as you, but I was trying to get Nick to think in terms of getting a more authentic product. Mind you, there are professionals who dress their pizzas on screens, especially if their workers are inexperienced in forming skins and loading the pizzas into the oven using a peel, and then bake the pizzas in their deck ovens. However, that is not the usual way. Typically, the screens can be yanked from the oven as soon as the pizzas set up or develop the desired degree of bottom crust coloration. Some professionals put screens under the pizzas toward the end of the bake to prevent the bottom crusts from browning too much or even burning.

Thanks guys. I just got back from Sam's and they had the same flour that Chicago Bob was talking about. It's on the bag, good for breads and thick crust pizza. I got to looking around on the web, and it was noted that Sam's has quit selling the high gluten flour. Their website says they still sell here in town. The web page may be out of date. Bummer!

I think from now on I will just stick with KAFB and not add any VWG. The pies still have a nice chew, and seem to stay crisper on the next day reheat. I have been looking for All Trumps in the area, but no success so far.

Pete, I can get a 16" screen to fit in my oven. I will follow your suggestions about using the screen up front, then moving the pie to stone to finish up.

You guys have really answered a lot of questions that I was having. The minor tweaking I have done on the last few pies and your suggestions, have made all the difference in the quality of the crusts.

My next NY pie will be a 16". Will I have any problems keeping with the .075TF on the larger skin?

My next NY pie will be a 16". Will I have any problems keeping with the .075TF on the larger skin?

Nick,

Making skins that are 16" or larger and with a thickness factor of 0.075 is largely a matter of experience and skill. And also the hydration value you are using and how long the dough has been fermented. For example, if you are using the KABF, the rated absorption value for that flour is 62%. With normal experience and skill you should be able to form a 16" skin and possibly an 18" skin without much difficulty at a 62% hydration value and a 0.075 thickness factor, but if you feel uncomfortable with your skills you can use a hydration value of around 60%, or even a bit lower. Then, over time, you can gradually inch the hydration back up as you gain more experience. But you should keep in mind that if the duration of fermentation is long, which is also related to the amount of yeast your are using, making the larger size skins becomes more of a problem because of the way that gluten is degraded over time, making the dough more extensible. There may be some professionals who make the NY style pizza who go out to say, three days of cold fermentation, but they are perhaps in the minority. Ultimately, you will want to achieve the proper balance between the amount of yeast you use and the duration of cold fermentation that will allow you to make the larger, thin skins.

Many of the chains that use unbromated flours use ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) as an alternative to potassium bromate, which I suspect they would prefer to use if it weren't for California. So, if you have ascorbic acid on hand, you might add a pinch or two to your dough to see if that makes a difference in the final results.

nick good to see another okie on here. its hard to find a high protein flour in tulsa. we use kabf or kaap then use the food sim tool to get the vwg amount right to get the 14.2%.i was thinking of trying a bag of flour from sams too if for no other reason than price. it works out to less than a third what kabf than the $5+ costs at reasors. target has kaap for 4 a bag.i looked for a protein % on the bag at sams but didnt see it listed. i also checked the food sim tool protein % list but didnt see sams . also you might try siegi's at 81st and sheridan for sausage. pretty good stuff for $2.99 a lb. we started with ny pies but we have been on a deep dish kick lately and are thinking of trying a cracker next

Hi T towner. I use KAFB, and was adding VWG. But I thought it was just a tad too chewy, so I quit using VWG. I like the crust crispy with a light chew. Also, the crust reheats nicer. The Sam's on Sheridan does not carry the high gluten flour anymore. I have not tried the other two in town as of yet. So, Seigi's sells Italian sausage? I'll have to check it out. Reasor's sells Lovera's Italian sausage form Krebbs OK It had a nice flavor. Not sure I will try it again. Last batch smelled spoiled. I like Mario's, but have not tried NY Pizza at 49th ad Harvard. Leon's makes a nice pie. I really like Andolini's and the new Mondo's make a good pie too. Do you have a fave NY style place, and a regular pizza joint?

I have a thread on the cracker crust topic if ya want to check it out. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18731.0.html I started with Pete's recipe and then worked on my own version from there. I wish we had a place in town that sold a good cracker style. Start a thread and post some pics of those pies. That's a nice lookin' pie you have there.

we have been to marios off and on but not since they moved across the street. we rarely eat pizza out anymore and i blame this website for that. my wife wanted to try savastanos as she is a big cub fan and they have a lot of chicago stuff in there. honestly we liked ours better. if you follow the gurus here its easy to have great results. i mainly lurk but have been here a few years but have learned a lot.i'll check out your cracker thread today. i have been wanting to try a new crust and it looks like it might be a really good change of pace. if you want to try a deep dish heres a good one http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4070.20.html its been the family favorite around here and really the easist crust of the 3 we have donei think i will try a bag of the sams flour next time im low. it comes out to about a buck and a half for 5 lb bag. hard to pass that up.