If there is a violation here, and Tom wants the ACLU to take it up, all he has to do is notify them, and they will look into it.

Will they go to court over it? They have limited resources, so they can't and don't do that with any and everything that is brought to their attention. But it's a myth that the ACLU is in any way anti-christian.

Well, the constitution is clearly a secular document, and compared to what the Christian (or Muslim or Jewish or fill in the blank) Taliban would like to impose upon all of us, it's also quite "progressive."

It should be pretty clear from my comments that I oppose any religious group (christian, muslim, jewish, fill in the blank) from imposing a their religion on anyone else, and using government to do it. I don't hate them-- I just want them to practice their religion without me.

What are you even upset about? Do you even know what the ACLU does? I'm going to spell it out really slowly for you, and you see why they aren't involved, okay? They only step in when there is an unconstitutional infringement upon someone's civil liberties. Your civil liberties are outlined, right there in the Constitution's Bill of Rights. The only way that there has been a violation of your constitutional rights is if the federal (or, in the case of some but not all rights, a state) government has deprived you of a right. Show me what right has been deprived here, by allowing a religious group to lobby the federal government and a city government to provide them with something that helps them practice their religion? Your right to dislike Muslims?

The first amendment protects the general public against excessive entanglement of religious and government entities. I'm not sure how much entanglement there is by allowing Muslim groups to ask for and, gasp!, even get a place at an airport to allow people to practice a facet of their faith. It's not an excessive entanglement for the government to provide textbooks to Christian schools, and I don't see anyone up in arms about that. It's not about separating church and state entirely in every physical and metaphysical way possible. It's about avoiding excessive entanglement. Perhaps you should study, gosh, say, the Constitution, before you criticize a group dedictated to its protection.

Yeah, Christians are so persecuted here. It's impossible to have a Christian president, or celebrate Christian holidays, or put things about the Christian God on the money or in the Pledge of Allegiance. You can't find a Christian church anywhere. Or any Christian programming on TV on Sunday. It is sure hard being a Christian in the USA, whew. Christians are really martyrs here.

Pat Mahoney has often recounted walking into the back (ie not for public consumption) offices of the ACLU in LA back in the 90's and noticing a big cross on the wall with the negation circle around it and the word "crossbusters" underneath.

Now, I am certain that they meant that as a statement against capital punishment, aren't you?

Would one be required to somehow provide evidence of their chosen religion in order to use these? Would these not be allowed to be used by other cab drivers and/or other patrons using the facilities? Would non-Muslim cab drivers be forced to participate?

Is this more egregious than churches not paying taxes which are paid by identical secular organizations, thus being heavily subsidized by government at every level?

Do we not provide federal funding to churches for a number of their services and activities, with their eligibility specifically based on their status as a church?

This is a very simple matter of reasonable accommodation. We offer restrooms for two of the several variations on human anatomy, based on some widely accepted and enforced views on sexuality and modesty. I wouldn't say that the U.S. government is institutionalizing sexism by doing so, but rather accommodating those who adhere to such views. We could certainly all manage to share one restroom as there are private stalls for each individual.

Very different people must exist together in Kansas City, and we are lucky to have diversity. There are approximately 1,400,000,000 Muslims in the world using the Qur'an to guide them through life. Certainly we can allow our city's Muslim employees to maintain their personal hygiene at the level prescribed by their most deeply held beliefs.

This writer's argument sounds absurd to me, hardly worth discussion, beyond that such views as this may lead to antisocial behavior and thus must be openly dealt with for the sake of education and tolerance.

The ACLU opposes Christmas. It hates the Boy Scouts. It wants "under God" removed from the Pledge of Allegiance. It wants "In God We Trust" removed from our coinage. It promotes gay marriage. It favors the grisly act of abortion.

I can't even believe you think those things. It's wholly absurd and without merit. The ACLU has done more for your civil liberties than, apparently, you know or will ever know. It's your prerogative to remain willfully blind to the many ways they've protected you and to focus on the way they have even-handled offered protection to those whose views you do not hold. I supposed it's also you prerogative to trumpet your ignorance in a public sphere such as this one. Let's add fuel to your fire. They've also defended the Nazis. They've defended terrible criminals who have committed unspeakable acts. They've defended the KKK. I guess that makes them evil, if you choose not to think about why they've defended all those folks, as well as Christians, Muslims, atheists, Buddhists, Native Americans, the elderly, the mentally handicapped, and children. The point of it is that they are a venerable institution because they will defend a person's - ANY person - civil liberties. Just because that means they sometimes defend the scourge of society or those people with whose views you disagree does not make them evil. It makes you look ignorant.

I think prayer booth is part of the silly downtown art thing where real art is often excluded--certainly representational art.

Update: In answer to the question, "where's ACLU?" (BTW "where's" cannot mean "where is the", which calls the entire premise into question)--I saw them running down 6th street near Monterrey Way just ten minutes ago. If you hurry, you can catch them.

Che, I believe the word is "ascribing," rather proving my point about people who oppose the ACLU being ignorant.

It is NOT the legal branch of the Secular Progressive movement. I assume you've come to this conclusion by focusing on situations where they've advanced the cause of avoiding excessive entanglement between church and state, e.g. where they disallow prayer in public schools. I assume also, that in order to truly believe they're militant secular anti-Christians, you conveniently ignore the fact that they have, time and time again, stood up for Christian groups and persons who have had their civil liberties violated. They worked to free an imprisioned Christian who was arrested for witnessing to people on the public street in New Mexico and about 6 other places in the last 4 years. The ACLU of Virginia had a Virginia law struck down which prohibited religious groups from seeking to incorporate. They defended students at the University of Iowa who wanted to distribute Christian literature on campus. They intervened on behalf of a Christian student who had been prevented from including Biblical references in their public high school yearbook.

Sure, they've defended other religions, too (which I suspect is your real problem with them), like a Muslim firefighter who was defended from having to shave his beard against his religion to keep his job with the city, or a Mormon kid who wore a T-shirt with a religious statement on it to his public school and was asked to go home.

The point is that they are one of the few organizations in this country who truly and simply protect the constitutional rights of everyone, no matter if they are a child molester, a mentally handicapped person, or an Average Joe.

To hate them is completely insane and it shows that you're just listening to one-sided political punditry which spews hate about the things the ACLU has defended that they don't like. Or, it shows that you're willing to overlook the good work they do because you hate some of the people they defend. Do you hate public defenders, too? People who defend and blind themselves to the fact that the person they're defending may be incredibly abhorrent and disgusting as a human being? The whole point is that no matter the person, no matter the situation, the ACLU is there to protect the Constitution and the people the Constitution protects. To say they are evil is so incredibly ignorant, it's sad.

And the sister question to yours is, how does the Hookah House in Lawrence come off as being the only smoking establishment in the city? It's their ritual, as well as the foot cleansing. Only thing I can come up with is it's considered open-minded by the powers that be and when you get liberal powers, so be it. I don't know why we give so much deference to a religion that clearly calls for our (and other infidels) destruction.

ACLU is a two-edged sword. Some of the things they oppose seem counterproductive to national security, such as wiretaps on suspected terrorists. The Cato Institution is another such group. It seems they are always at odds with either liberals or conservatives. You can't please everyone.

want real seperation of church and state, Churches should pay property taxes. They get a tax ride on property, we pay. I don't want to pay for their fire truck services. When they don't pay property tax, who does their share fall too. They can afford 10 acres in prime development areas because they don't pay for it. That is ten acres that could be paying its own way not carried by other organizations, families and businesses.

I've said it many times here and I'll keep saying it: the LJW.com provides an invaluable service for all, in that one can see how the average right-wing mind functions. Pretty scary stuff in their posts. Completely and unapologetically ignorant, too.

Smoking a hookah has nothing to do with being a Muslim. That's completely cultural. Many Muslims believe that smoking of any sort is against their religion.

Agreed. Just using that example to point out the willingness of our culture to accept others' cultures, at least sometimes, while Islam is unaccepting of ANY other religion and any cultural influence outside their own. Although, the interesting thing is that they seem to put aside these beliefs long enough to become educated in Europe or the US.

Ok...stand corrected...
But why would you call a conservative a commie (right wing shills that will lie repeatedly to advance thier commie agenda)?
Commies are typically anti religion - most of the people you are arguing with here are Christian conservatives that are much further away from communism then the left wing!

right_think., and the day of the attacks on US soil will come either in suicide taxi bombers or some other religious nutcase. In the meantime, the ACLU wil continue to blubber about racial profiling and liberals will continue to promote looking the other way when you know darn well of whom you need to be fearful.

"while Islam is unaccepting of ANY other religion and any cultural influence outside their own. "

That's crap. I know at least twenty Muslims in Lawrence and the KC area. They are far more tolerant of other religions that most Christians I've met (look at this board for example). I never hear them bash other religions. Many of them are active participants in cultural practices that may not match 100% with their religion (such as listening to music, dancing, taking part in local events either here or in their countries or origin). Sure, there are those strict Muslims who have issues with other religions, but don't classify them as ALL Muslims. I haven't met every Muslim and only know by the example I have seen. It's funny how SOME Christians bash other religions for being intolerant, when those Christians are guilty of the same actions.

Posted by right_thinker:
"Well, the bottom line it doesn't matter what religion, the ACLU is quite notably a secular-progressive body-doing the dirty work for the secular-progressives, naturally."

Well, really? I think the Constitution does the dirty work.

But more to the point, are you suggesting that people who don't agree with you should have no advocate? The religious-regressives of this nation have theirs installed in the White House and US Supreme Court, not to mention their borderline monopoly over talk radio. You've got half of the alumni of Regent University in the judicial system, trying to change (yes, I said change) the fabric of our nation, the Constitution, to fit the desires of the religious-regressives. Can't I, as someone who doesn't share your faith, have a high-powered advocate for MY own interests?

Yeah, Christians are so persecuted here. It's impossible to have a Christian president, or celebrate Christian holidays, or put things about the Christian God on the money or in the Pledge of Allegiance. You can't find a Christian church anywhere. Or any Christian programming on TV on Sunday. It is sure hard being a Christian in the USA, whew. Christians are really martyrs here."

Yeah, just like it is so darn hard to be a white, well-educated, middle class male in this country...

Bottomline of what the ACLU does is protect due process rights, and that's what bothers the religious/political regressives. They prefer summary judgements and punishment, and kangaroo courts, by police and judges who have exactly the same fascist and talibanic viewpoints that they have.

What they don't understand, is that they and their friends and family are just as at risk by such "law enforement" as anyone else.

So careful what you wish for che, RT and others-- you might just get it.

BTW, the Hookah House has no special exemption. It's the exemption written into the smoking law that applies to everybody. Tobacco stores can allow smoking on the premises. If anybody wishes to open a similar establishment, they will recieve the same exemption, regardless of the religion or ethnic background of the proprieters.

"You've got half of the alumni of Regent University in the judicial system, trying to change (yes, I said change) the fabric of our nation, the Constitution, to fit the desires of the religious-regressives."

Good Call, why did the ABA grant accreditation to Robertson's Camp for Christian Soldiers anyway?

"Recommend you find a 1950s US history book and discover what America was. "

Yeah, those were the good old days.....segregation, Jim Crow laws, separate but equal still in effect despite Brown v. BOE.....You're so right. Perhaps I can time travel back to those days when I would have been considered 1) too highly educated for a mere woman, and 2) a spinster for being a single 28 year old woman.

kneejerkreaction said:
"Agreed. Just using that example to point out the willingness of our culture to accept others' cultures, at least sometimes, while Islam is unaccepting of ANY other religion and any cultural influence outside their own."

You are actually incorrect about Islam being unnaccepting of any other cultures or religions. Islam is one of the few Western religions that actually states that any "person of the book" who lives their lives according to their religion, be they Christian, Jewish or Muslim, will go to "heaven". You don't have to be a political or religious genius to know that one.....I learned that 8 years ago in a living religions class at KU.....

Crisp., did you pass the class or just sleep? Is this the Islam whose clerics call for the extinction of all others in the name of their god? Islam sounds more like a political movement than a religion. It's remniscent of HItler and the Nazis.

Besides, Crisp., the whole Islam thing is nothing more than an excuse to rally the masses, much like the crusades of the Middle Ages, not about religion, but about conquering and power. The clerics are the power, the rest of the people just pawns, and it's the radical clerics that get the most attention.

Knee jerk, I really have no idea what to say to you. You are incredibly ill-informed and are making a lot of generalizations. I doubt that ALL Islamic Clerics are calling for the extinction of all others....as was said above Extremists do not reqpresent an entire religion. And, no, I did not sleep in that class. I actually remember it very distinctly. Maybe you should do some research before you overgeneralize.

Crisp., among the various sects of shiites, sunnis and the MANY derivatives of said, we have them either killing us or one another. What do you believe are the redemptive features of fanatacism? All I know is that for all the good the middle east does for the rest of the world, it should just fall off the ends of the earth and take its backwards, screwed up religious goofballs with it. The middle east gets WAY more attention than it deserves or merits.

And now I bid adieu to all our leftwing loonie tunes. Don't forget your prayer mats for this evening's ceremony, and try and keep on open mind to all those who want to destroy us, undermine our world status and DON'T forget to hate GWB more than the terrorists.

More likely a yoga mat around here.and don't worry, we do. Think I'll kick up my membership donation to the ACLU tonight in the names of Knee jerk,right thinker,Setting the record strait,and Marion too(for good measure)!$25 each ok? ok $100.00 donation it is boys.we thank you.G'day.

"Islam has always been spread by the sword. It is a religion of intolerance and hate, much like modern secular progressivism.

Now, comes the personal attacks and mean spirited responses because I have disagreed with the opinion of the progressives."

Now, come again, who's the one doing the attacks and mean-spirited comments? It is true that Islam has been spread by the sword, no doubt about it. But, always? Give me a break. What religion hasn't done so?

"Why does The Council on American-Islamic Relations get a pass on pressuring the U.S. government to install foot baths for Muslim cab drivers at Kansas City International Airport?"

Instead of making the CAIR the bad guy, why isn't anyone here villifying the above-mentioned U.S. government for caving? I mean, if this is such a bad idea, shouldn't our LTE writer be deriding our oh-so-morally-never-wrong government?

To everyone who says the ACLU is left-wing, anti-Christian, and socialist. Read this, think about it, and then tell me why you still think they're "bad" in that way.

It is NOT the legal branch of the Secular Progressive movement. I assume you've come to this conclusion by focusing on situations where they've advanced the cause of avoiding excessive entanglement between church and state, e.g. where they disallow prayer in public schools. I assume also, that in order to truly believe they're militant secular anti-Christians, you conveniently ignore the fact that they have, time and time again, stood up for Christian groups and persons who have had their civil liberties violated. They worked to free an imprisioned Christian who was arrested for witnessing to people on the public street in New Mexico and about 6 other places in the last 4 years. The ACLU of Virginia had a Virginia law struck down which prohibited religious groups from seeking to incorporate. They defended students at the University of Iowa who wanted to distribute Christian literature on campus. They intervened on behalf of a Christian student who had been prevented from including Biblical references in their public high school yearbook.

Sure, they've defended other religions, too (which I suspect is your real problem with them), like a Muslim firefighter who was defended from having to shave his beard against his religion to keep his job with the city, or a Mormon kid who wore a T-shirt with a religious statement on it to his public school and was asked to go home.

The point is that they are one of the few organizations in this country who truly and simply protect the constitutional rights of everyone, no matter if they are a child molester, a mentally handicapped person, or an Average Joe.

To hate them is completely insane and it shows that you're just listening to one-sided political punditry which spews hate about the things the ACLU has defended that they don't like. Or, it shows that you're willing to overlook the good work they do because you hate some of the people they defend. Do you hate public defenders, too? People who defend and blind themselves to the fact that the person they're defending may be incredibly abhorrent and disgusting as a human being? The whole point is that no matter the person, no matter the situation, the ACLU is there to protect the Constitution and the people the Constitution protects. To say they are evil is so incredibly ignorant, it's sad.

I know mine's a repost of my earlier post, but I honestly want to know how some people can reconcile the good work the ACLU does on behalf of Christians to help Christians exercise their faith to the fullest amount allowed under the Constitution with the fact that political pundits say the ACLU is anti-Christian. I completely do not understand that, other than to think you just don't know much about the ACLU, its work, and its history, and you get all your information from vitriolic right-wing pundits.

Sorry, I meant to add this. If you don't like some of the people the ACLU defends, that's fine. They defend the Nazis, and I don't think you'll find anyone who thinks the Nazis are good people. The point of it is they defend ANYONE whose rights have been curtailed. How can you have a problem with that?

The aclu is like National Public Radio and Public Television:::.socialist agendas with a cover of altruism."

Reason 5,456,354 that right-wingers are a joke. "Socialist agendas with a cover of altruism?" You're killing me, smalls.

Here's what NPR would sound like if jim were in charge:

"In other news today, our GLORIOUS LEADER, President George Walker Bush, defended another attack from the traitor Democrat Party, while simultaneously explaining why we must defeat the terrorists over there so we don't have to fight them over here. If its good enough for the GLORIOUS LEADER, why heck, Carl, its good enough for me. Research, facts, other opinions? Meh. The LEADER'S words are all the facts and opinions I need. Now to Lackshme Singh for weather. Lackshme?

Alright, Carl, we have sunny skies and temps in the 70s for the God-fearing red states, while the wicked Northeast and the Left Coast can expect hurricanes, tornados, wildfires, and heaping helping of brimstone for their evil, effete, Volvo-driving, reality-loving ways. Back to you, Carl."

Crisp., among the various sects of shiites, sunnis and the MANY derivatives of said, we have them either killing us or one another. What do you believe are the redemptive features of fanatacism? All I know is that for all the good the middle east does for the rest of the world, it should just fall off the ends of the earth and take its backwards, screwed up religious goofballs with it. The middle east gets WAY more attention than it deserves or merits."

Thanks for proving what an idiot you are. There are a vast number of Muslims the world over. Apparently Spain, Egypt, Indonesia, so and so forth must also then fall off the Earth.
You just showed what a racist, elitist, Euro-centric DB you really are. Thanks! Now I know for sure you are not worth arguing with. Ignorance is one thing, but choosing to be ignorant is just plain stupid.

Bottom line, if you are not being forced to wash your feet, your rights are not being violated. There are plenty of prayer stations in public places for Christians and (hopefully) you all don't expect that people must pray there or leave?

Seriously, did you read my comments? I don't think the Christian guy locked up for witnessing on a public street was high profile.

You're just reiterating what Bill O'Reilly & Co are telling you to think. Think for yourself! You never know when an over-zealous prosecutor might come after you or someone you care about and trample your rights. You might need the ACLU to step in for you.

Altruism;
behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator.

Not a bad thing.Big brother is the predator,ie:Corporatism You can see why they get beat up by the powers that be. we got the fox watchin the hen house,and the ACLU has a shotgun.

socialism :
An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity. There are many varieties of socialism. Some socialists tolerate capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy; others insist on an abolition of private enterprise. All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists.

Well the Cooperation part, I think ,is one idea we should take from the socialist model.If we don't stop competing,and start cooperating soon,we will use up all the resources,and pollute beyond habitability! Many don't care,as the problem is gradual,festering over time,it will affect their kids not them.Talk about sad.

I don't disagree that some are outright silly about religion - e.g., suing cities like Los Angeles that include "Christian" symbols when those symbols are simply the historic basis for the founding and naming of the 'City of the Angels.'

But, by the same token, despite the likes of Bill O'Reilly, et al., I'm not noticing this "war" on Christians. In my neighborhood, Christians do not cower in hiding for fear of attack from pagan deathsquads roaming the streets .... only anything like that.

The practical test developed over decades regarding government and religion is whether the action "unnecessary entangles" government with religion. I'm at a loss how providing a faucet for water entangles much of anything regardless of the underlying motivation. Government offices are, almost without exception, closed on Sundays. That's not merely a practical matter but one founded upon a religious notion that Sunday is a "holy" day. Nevertheless, someone who doesn't think Sunday is a "holy" day is not, to any measurable extent, put upon by the office closure. Likewise, unless the water faucets are ONLY of use for religious purposes or if EVERYONE was being forced to partake in footwashing, there's no 'there' here - and its a poor example and a poor letter.

For a lot of you, I have saved you the trouble of writing a lot of your posts by posting a template for a large portion of the comments. Well-worded and free of typos! Only $19.95 for a limited time!

I, __, hereby accuse ____ of being a __-wing lunatic. __ does not know what he/she is talking about, and cannot do anything other than regurgitate the ____ party (or ___ movement) rhetoric. Thank ___ (i.e. God, Allah, Darwin, Douglas Adams) that I am not like ___.

Separation of Church and State is a myth. It is not in the Constitution.

The proposed foot baths for Islamic worship do not established a national church, like the Church of England. Thus, there would be no violation of the Constitution. Besides, the First Amendment applies only against Congress. Also, you can't prohibit Muslims from using public hand washing sinks because it would be a prohibition against the free exercise of religion.