Vatican Inc.

Pope Benedict's resignation shocked the Catholic Church and left the Vatican in disarray. His successor will face many challenges, from recurrent sexual scandals to concerns about financial impropriety at the Vatican's own bank, the IOR or Institute of Religious Works.

In 2011, Al Jazeera investigated allegations that the IOR had been involved in money laundering and examined Pope Benedict's plans for cleaning up the secretive system. With many of those reforms having fallen short and the Vatican's finances still under a cloud, the next Pope might benefit from watching this report once again.

Every Sunday worshipers crowd the Saint Peter's colonnades in square and from its balcony the Pope imparts a sacrament and the latest behavioral guidelines. Over one billion Catholics look to the pontiff for guidance and donate their money to the Catholic Church. A large portion of this money makes its way to the Vatican and into the vaults of the IOR, the Institute for Religious Works, the Vatican's Bank.

The IOR is the vehicle through which thousands of charitable and religious initiatives around the globe are financed. In the recent past, Italian state prosecutors placed the bank under investigation for suspected money laundering. Twenty three million Euros in Vatican funds were seized representing only a fraction of suspect transactions now being scrutinized. IOR president, Ettore Gotti Tedeschi, was also placed under investigation and a huge financial scandal now threatens to envelop the church. For many Catholics, it has the disturbing echoes of another scandal of 30 years ago, the infamous "Banco Ambrosiano affair" and some now fear that history may be repeating itself.

President Ettore Gotti Tedeschi was questioned in order to clarify the situation, but after the questioning the prosecution thought that they had not received satisfactory answers. It is surprising that even the president of the IOR could not find a way to clarify the circumstances.

The Institute for Religious Works is located behind the walls of the Vatican City state and inside the massive tower build by Niccolo V. The bank was founded in 1942 by Pope Pius XII with the purpose of safe keeping the Vatican's vast assets in capital and real estate. The IOR doesn't allow everyone to open accounts. There are specific regulations allowing only religious organizations or members of clergy to do so.

The IOR is administered by industry professionals under the supervision of the Council of Cardinals, but because the IOR has only one central branch inside the Vatican, it has to use other banks outside the city state to move its funds around. However, the names of its accounts holders are kept secret and transactions bare no other identification than that of the IOR. This means the origins of any deposit coming into an IOR account are wiped from the record before the funds are moved out to the international banking system and that, say critics, makes money laundering all too easy.

Generally, the profits that the IOR makes during a year's worth of financial operations and from the deposits made, are given to the Pope for charitable works that are carried out worldwide. The amount corresponds roughly to 70 or 80 million Euros every year.

Inevitably, this huge flow of cash, much of it untraceable, has attracted the attention of investigators. The latest probe began in the hills around Rome in late 2008 when Father Evaldo Biasini, treasurer of the Congregation of the Missionaries of the precious blood, answered his mobile phone.

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118 Comments / User Reviews

RickRayFSM

Why are we not surprised about the corruption etc.?

robertallen1

And Catholics wonder why they are hated!

systems1000

Those who hunt witches do so because they see their own evil as virtue.

spikebat

By who? Everybody else? Or just you?

robertallen1

By anyone with a knowledge of the history of this vile entity masquerading as a charitable and benevolent institution, starting with how it got so rich and powerful.

systems1000

Fear,vanity and hypocrisy will be your down fall,if I do say so myself.

systems1000

I agree,they think they can hide form their evil in sexual debauchery under the guise of love.

iStateOfMind3 iii

The people that were abused were infact Catholic. You might what to bear that in mind.

spikebat

You said 'Catholics'.....but I understand now that you meant the Catholic Church, registered office the Vatican and not a billion people worldwide. That would be a lot of hate and probably really tiring. Whilst masquerading as a charitable and benevolent institution is clearly a key principle of their business model, that's hardly unique to one church or religious institution. Is it? Anyway....peace

robertallen1

That doesn't excuse Catholism which is among the most salient offenders. Once again, how and why did that institution become so rich and power. Just about everything about Catholicism has been and is despicable at heart..

robertallen1

So what? The institution of which they are a part and which they represent (unless they have had the good sense to break away) is rotten from top to bottom.

sineroth

start catholicism with religion and im basiclly with ya but without the hate

iStateOfMind3 iii

Good sense would be ability to mount a logical argument against such a sophisticated form of propaganda as religion. Thinking a child has the mental capacity to do that is pretty ignorant, not as ignorant as justifying the rape of children based on their religion; which you just did. I don't think even the Vatican would stoop that low.

DigiWongaDude

Clearly, there's a risk to logic, once hatred is engaged.

jackmax

Mate, if you don't think the Catholic church including the Vatican don't cover their asses when it comes to their sexual predator behavior. Take a look at the Royal Commission currently being conducted in Australia about abuse and unreported cases of Catholic priests preying on young boy for pedophile acts. Which Cardinal George Pell was aware of and a part of the cover up under his own admittance. Then came out to support the priest in a show of solidarity for the priesthood.

{Edit} in my mind his is guilty of perverting the course of justice.

iStateOfMind3 iii

Catholic's have voted with there feet on just those points you raise. The Catholic Church has seen a drastic drop in numbers for the last 10-15 years. Apart from the obvious scandals people in general are tiring of secretive, unaccountable cabals who don't even remotely reflect the aspirations of the people they claim to represent.

jackmax

Should they not be accountable by the law of the land for their crimes?

over the edge

yes they should but sadly that does not seem likely. remember the REAL golden rule."he who has the gold makes the rules" . rules of decency prevent me from expressing what i think about this organized crime syndicate and anybody who either supports them or turns a blind eye to their abuses.

iStateOfMind3 iii

No one should be considered above the law, the answer to your question is pretty obvious.

jackmax

sad but true

jackmax

Then are you saying the Catholics condone pedophiles with in there priesthood and there private club?

jackmax

I think the sooner we get rid of all religion the better mankind will be.
They are all dishonest and corrupt to the core from what I have seen.

robertallen1

And just where did I justify rape of children based on their religion? You should learn to read.
You're right, a child does not have the mental capacity to break away, BUT HIS PARENTS DO!

robertallen1

Wrong as usual. That hatred is based on logic.

robertallen1

Have you watched the debate between Cardinal Pell and Richard Dawkins? If not, it's on You Tube.

robertallen1

And may the numbers continue to dwindle.. Nothing would delight me more than seeing an angry mob raze the Vatican to the ground. Think how far ALL the money raised from looting its coffers, selling the rubble for scrap and melting down the gewgaws inside could go towards improving the lot of the peasants in third world countries--and in particular, think of all the clergy, including the pope, out of a job and no longer being able to live off the fat of the land.

robertallen1

Obviously not to the Catholic church.

oQ

Of course the Vatican is corrupted, same as any government.
Religious people stand behind the Vatican the same way US citizens stand behind their corrupt government while claiming other countries are corrupted.
1i

Rohypgnosis

People are not 'Catholic'!! 'Catholic' is, however, what they became once the machinations of indoctrination by that organisation started their inexorable de-humanisation on them!!

iStateOfMind3 iii

I can't speak for one billion Catholic's, but then I don't need to even try with such a ridiculous question. Who would condone child molestation? I grew up Catholic in Belfast, being hated for my religion actually galvanized my commitment to my faith for no other reason than I was being persecuted on account of it. What makes me a better person today is that I didn't allow it to make me bitter. Then you got people that suffered neither molestation or persecution telling us the whole world hates us, even though we are the victim's of the crime! Still I won't give in to bitterness.

oQ

Never said all, never would. That would be a depressing idea. It`s good that many citizens are against their government, imagine if they all supported the atrocities that were done. I wish there were enough of them to make a change though.
1i

robertallen1

So now all Catholics are victims.

"I grew up Catholic in Belfast, being hated for my religion actually galvanized my commitment to my faith for no other reason than I was being persecuted on account of it." That doesn't say much for your intelligence.
Just what has Catholicism done for you?

robertallen1

"Religious people stand behind the Vatican THE SAME WAY US CITIZENS stand behind their corrupt government while claiming other countries are corrupted." [emphasis added] I don't see a partitive here.

oQ

You are blinded by your thoughts. See it in my reply.
1i

iStateOfMind3 iii

'That doesn't say much for your intelligence.' - I mentioned it because you would think people like yourself would want a world free of religion. My point is you are going the wrong way about it. I didn't cling to my faith to gain some insight into the theology behind Catholicism, I shouldn't need to explain that to someone as perceptive as yourself... And who exactly do you think catholic priests victims were? Jewish kids? Muslim kids? No Catholics!!! (lol) So in the grand scheme of things Catholics ARE the victims here by any reasonable examination of the data. Are you really willing to pretend you don't understand that for the sake of your disdain for religion?

robertallen1

Wrong. SOME Catholics.
By your own admission, you clung to your faith for the stupidest of reasons, the faith itself.
Can you think of anything more inane than to have your life and thoughts governed and regulated by a coterie of doddering old men in a foreign county in many instances thousands of miles away--and paying for the privilege?
Once again, what has Catholicism done for you?

iStateOfMind3 iii

They built schools in hedgerows in Ireland and educated children which was a crime punishable by death at the time. It also kept my native language alive, speaking it was also a crime. What has hate done for you?

jackmax

Maaaate,

For every time you could present that we the non believer or anti theists have ever condoned violence to because of our dis-belief, I'm sure I could find double the amount from the Catholics and countless if we look at all religions.

robertallen1

Those schools were no more than glorified. proselytization centers as are other so-called charitable Catholic institutions. And just which native language are you referring to and how did the Catholic church keep it alive?
Once again, you're avoiding my question as to what Catholicism has done for you? I wonder why.

robertallen1

Absolutely: the Crusades, the witch burnings, the Inquisition. Christian apologists are bad enough, but Catholic apologists are the worst which brings us back to this documentary.
One way or the other, it's no different than Al Capone opening up soup kitchens at the time he was being indicted for income tax evasion.

iStateOfMind3 iii

Reminds me of a George Carlin line about getting the answer to the God question wrong, of course there is a lot of truth to that. A lot of people have been killed in the name of religion, but also a lot of people have been killed in the name of one country or another. I'm pretty sure in the absence of both of those reasons we would still manage to find other idea's to kill each other over. It's because we tend to think we (humans) have the right to force our ideas on each other rather than 'be the change we want to see in the world' and leave the decision to be a follower up to the individual.

robertallen1

So now you're comparing the Catholic church to a country. Well, your comparison is certainly valid and certainly damning.
Saying Johnny does it does not excuse Jimmy's doing it, especially if Jimmy is Johnny's vassal or vice versa. So your apologetics simply won't wash.

The difference is we can do without religion (especially the Catholic religion). We can't do without government.

Shenanigans

Hmm...I noticed this was aired on Al Jazeera. I'm curious as to whether they would give their own religion the same scrutiny?....I'm not standing up for Catholicism by the way. I hate all religion equally.

iStateOfMind3 iii

I didn't think you could be anymore ignorant, but you found a way, congratulations!

robertallen1

A non-answer tantamount to your non-answer to my repeated question as to what the Catholic religion has done for you which I now take to mean nothing. In other words, you're defending one big nothing.

Pysmythe

Yes, but that's the thing: You can't really dehumanize human beings, can you? So just make sure the "guilt cog" is in place and spins, and load up their nightmares with a bunch of pagan-inspired imagery of the netherworld, and you've got it. Control of "the childish multitude" is what keeps the whole business running.

Pysmythe

Take great care with the libraries and the artworks, though. The rest can perish.

robertallen1

Right you are. So donate them to private institutions or perhaps sell them off, thereby adding to the funds available for TRULY charitable purposes such as raising the standard of living of the peasants in third world countries. .

systems1000

Sad truth.Like government,hollywood and celebrity,religion too never seems to make it passed sex and money.If your ONLY human,thats your sick and weak problem,DOG.Perhaps its your physical appearence-Phalms 111.32

systems1000

definition of INSANITY. Repeatedly making the very same mistake over and over again,each time expecting a diffrent result.Anyone you know?

jackmax

Yes mate I have. I believe that if I was the head of a religious group my knowledge of the bible should be better than a Professor of biology.

Guest

I have found Al Jazeera to be a pretty reliable news source. Don't believe what you hear. Research what they say. By the way, what is the religion of Al Jazeera? I think you may be assuming if you think everyone who works there has the same religion. They are not all muslim, if that's what you think.

Shenanigans

Yes I have found them to be pretty good too on occasion. I'm not assuming they are all muslim, but they would be thought of as a muslim voice. I'm saying that I would love to see them scrutinize islam in the same way.

Glen

Just spent 23 M Euro on a Building that has Europe largest gay bath house that helps the poor.

elizabeth wesley

He has protection in the Vatican; if he leaves he can be detained as he was found guilty in the recent case of his part in the murder, rape, and sodomy against the native childen in Canada. The case was tried in Europe and charges were brought against the Vatican, pope, united and anglican churches qween of eng, PM of canada, as well as other sick individuals and organizations. Story found at "itccs.org" or "hidden no longer" if you are interested.

Bill Farley

If this new Pope wants to clean up corruption in the Vatican I strongly recommend he hire a food taster and resist taking bedtime snacks of tea and cookies.

Polaris

God's Banker by David Yallop. A must read. The fraud(s) never stopped, they continue.

James Sandoval

It's actually a "congregation" to reform the curia (college of cardinals). This is just another attempt at distracting, nay, DECEIVING the public. The masses admire Francis and feel he has given new hope for the Church's redemption. The church itself will never reform. No matter how poetically he does it, Francis has not made a single statement that goes against the same doctrine the Church has had for a thousand years. He is just as conservative as the last felon with the added mastery of the seductive trickery Jesuits are known for.

James Sandoval

Yours is also the only country sporting not just one, but several convent boarding schools where the NUNS (communally, might I add) sexually abused the students. You are in the minority. The pews are empty in Eire.

iStateOfMind3 iii

The story is the same for many state run orphanages world wide, or you could look at the 80s and 90s in Britain for example. I'm a follower of God and Jesus Christ, not a spokesman for the Vatican. The man who negotiated peace in Ireland behind the scenes for many years was also a priest (recently hung himself), we have had priests shot dead while giving people last rites on the street, so excuse me if I don't jump on the bandwagon of false indignation and actually support the people of my religion who deserve it. I'm not responsible for what other people of my religion do, that's their own responsibility. I thought the hot-seat for sectarian hatred was the Muslims at the minute, but no I guess it's the turn of the Catholics again, even though we fought hard to have this scandal uncovered and dealt with like everyone else. A gun to my head wouldn't make me denounce my religion, that's a fact.

robertallen1

So what? The Catholic hierarchy and the religion that goes with it (or vice versa) are two of the vilest and most criminal entities on the face of the earth.

iStateOfMind3 iii

Drop by to thumb me down I see. When you are ready to have a civilised discussion i'll be ready to engage you, just as these forums were intended to be used. Until then don't bother to reply to me, I don't need to listen to people who try to tell me how to think.

robertallen1

That's the problem, you don't think. You're merely a sheep and a Catholic one at that.

docoman

I agree. I saw on the news a couple of weeks ago Pope Francis had made some statement along the lines of "the world has to take notice and do more for the poor."
I laughed and thought it'd be nice if he practiced what he preached... start by paying taxes and stop taking from poor people themselves...

docoman

The Catholic Church in Australia has not 'fought hard to have this scandal uncovered', in fact the exact opposite. They broke laws, shifted offenders from parish to parish, complained if anything's said against them, had police destroy evidence on their behalf, played games like deliberately not take notes in interviews so as to have no 'record' later, support fellow priest criminals in court, and instruct priests to 'break the law' in the upcoming Royal Commission.

And what does the new Pope do to the Bishop in Australia that's been in charge of doing that?? Give him a job promotion, to be a part of 'reforming' the Church.

It's so sick all you can do is laugh in disgust. Shame on you pack of criminals and accompanying sheeple.

robertallen1

But then he and his minions would be pounding a bread line.

iStateOfMind3 iii

Where is the logic in what you are saying? One billion Catholics should be held responsible for what a bunch of cronies did, is that what you are telling me? You act like we had a say in what transpired, we didn't - period. Should all Americans be held responsible for what Bush/Obama have done? Should all Jews be held responsible for whats happened to Palestinians over the years? Would the same vitriol directed at people of faith in many of the comments sections of religious docs be tolerated then? People can't even discuss the subject without be called pathetic, moronic and other choice adjectives, behavior I have seen people here sternly told off for less. It's pure bigotry, and I'm calling you all out on it. Not one of you have an ounce of sympathy for the Catholics these people molested that's the reality of it, in fact one person even suggested it was parents fault. Highbrow me all you want, but I hold the moral high-ground on this one.

robertallen1

By standing up for a criminal organization, you are a criminal yourself and as an acolyte for a sodality which militates against birth control and abortion and has been responsible for countless numbers of deaths, especially in third world countries, who the hell do you think you are claiming that you hold anything resembling the moral high ground?

docoman

What?!? You, as a Catholic, hold the moral high ground in relation to, and here's the important bit so try to keep up, criminal doings both legally and morally (to any decent person regardless of belief system), past and ongoing, not only of a single priest or nun here or there, but the CHURCH as a whole or it's supporters? Not only have priests done the foulest of crimes to children, the Church leadership, instead of doing the right thing, swept it under the carpet. Not only ignored it, but actively hid it, then supported those who were charged, even while they continued to keep the same thing going. It's not a case of one or two, it's thousands, around the world. And what happens to those like Pell that helped 'hide' the truth, (sh1t job at it now too btw), he's PROMOTED. To 'reform' the Church! LOL :(

You claim the high ground that you, as a financial supporter, 'spiritual' supporter, public supporter because YOU personally didn't do any crimes. Laughable at it's absurdity.
Hmm, you didn't mention the German people supporting the Nazi party. A tad too close to another 'home truth' about your leadership's choices and history?
What do you think has been done with a % of your 'tithe'? Legal defense of Pedophiles, pay for known Pedophiles, hush money to 'save the Church's name' payments, etc etc etc.
Moral high ground.. my a$$ you have it.
Bullsh1t, I call you out!
Shame on you and what YOUR organisation has done, and does, and you for defending it doing this.
And it's long past due your lot started paying taxes like the rest of us do, you free loaders.

robertallen1

You might care to read about Archbisop Aloysius Stepinac of Yugoslavia who, as a consequence of his activities during WWII, was indicted by the Yugoslav authorities for war crimes and collaboration with the enemy and found guilty of not only of collaboration with the fascist Ustaše movement, but of complicity in allowing the forced conversions of Orthodox Serbs to Catholicism. IN 1952, AFTER HIS RELEASE FROM PRISON HE WAS APPOINTED CARDINAL BY POPE PIUS XII AND ON OCTOBER 3, 1998, POPE JOHN PAUL II DECLARE HIM A MARTYR AND BEATIFIED HIM!!!
Your anger is clearly justified especially in light of indefensible Catholic apologists such as State of Mind.

iStateOfMind3 iii

'And it's long past due your lot started paying taxes like the rest of us do, you free loaders.'

Well there is something we can find some common ground on. As for the rest it's pure antagonistic hyperbole.

robertallen1

Calling the rest of docoman's post antagonistic hyperbole amounts to no more than name calling. Let's see you try to refute it--and I don't mean with an apologia.

docoman

G'day robert, how's it going mate?
The crimes and betrayal against children makes me angry, but the church even more so for their actions and reactions.
Thanks for your suggestion and interesting info on one more criminal being rewarded by a Pope.
By the look of the poles so far, I fear the Liberal/National coalition is going to win this federal election we have coming up. Their leader is a real scumbag, an admitted liar (as if his profession didn't already show that), and a Catholic. :( We have this Royal Commission starting up here into Child abuse in Institutions. I if the LIb/Nat's get in he can't mess with that process in any way. :(

docoman

Do you know the history of Cardinal George Pell?
His personal history and involvements in the Child abuse cases here in Australia, his lies he's be caught out in?
If you read up and see everything about his history, his actions, and you don't condemn the choices he's made on behalf of himself and your Church, then you're just as bad. You may not have committed any child abuse crimes, but if you don't condemn it, and the actions to hide it, then you're one sick unit in my opinion.

robertallen1

And I second that. I'm sure you've seen the exchange between Dr. Dawkins and Cardinal Pell which the cardinal showed his true colors. Christian apologists are rotten, but Catholic apologists are despicable.

robertallen1

And while we're Catholic bashing, a worthy endeavor and one a long time in coming, why are the churches in third world countries so magnificent and the abodes of the parishoners so ramshackle? Why do the priests and altar boys (altar girls are apparently non-existent) sport the latest apparel while the tithers are dressed in rags? Why do the prelates in those countries ride around in cars while the pesants travel on horseback or on foot? Talk about robbing from the poor to pay the rich.

docoman

Yes mate, it was laughable at how Pell not only had no idea what evolution actually is, let alone argue against it in any intelligent way. Or what I found especially sad he even got some of the basic Bible stories incorrect.

My impression of him was he obviously wasn't the 'head Catholic' in Aus because of his knowledge of those things, but more his political and maneuvering skills.
It makes me sick how he's been shown to have lied about what he knew about multiple cases of abuse by multiple priests against many children, some of which committed suicide. The many families destroyed, and how how helped hide the guilty priests and 'quieten' the legal problems.

He's been nabbed by a man speaking out here, Pell was there when this man first said it was happening to him as a child...
He's gone to court to 'show priestly support' to a multiple abuser.
If the Muslims really wish to do the world a favor and go all 'jihad', they could start with Pell in my opinion. :) I hope this Royal Commission brings out some real truths, and Pell has to face charges here eventually.

docoman

I'm glad you agree on the taxes.

iStateOfMind3 iii

I could have responded with some antagonistic hyperbole of my own on what I think of Australia and it's history, being a pragmatic type of fellow I never would resort to that. As for you however the reverse is true. In fact your comments 99.9% of the time are the very definition of 'ad hominem'. I have never heard your voice an opinion on anything other than religion either, your no more than a troll on the forums and have nothing to contribute other than your contempt for ANY person of faith, not just Catholics. You represent intolerance, nothing more. If anyone needs to apologize it's you.

docoman

Obviously you haven't read any of the Evolution doco threads, or Math, or I space etc. You'll find robert has quite a broad knowledge if you do your homework.

And if you do check you'll find what I say he's talked on, which renders your 'ad hominem' 99.9% just ridiculous, and itself just ad hominem. LOL.

If you find people intolerant to your religion, you should look in the mirror to find the answers as to why. Some of what we've discussed for example. Have you even looked for 15 minutes into Cardinal Pell's past?

Stop crying that you're a victim, you're backing the perpetrators and definitely are not one of the victims.

'Have you even looked for 15 minutes into Cardinal Pell's past?'
I don't need anymore convincing that the hierarchy of the church is rotten to the core, that's what you don't seem to be able to grasp despite me repeatedly mentioning it. Have you ever heard of St. Columbanus? You can be a practicing Catholic and speak truth to power. We both agree that these people need to be removed to a jail preferably, we just have different notions of how to achieve that.

robertallen1

If the hierachy of the Catholic church is rotten to the core (and the history of the last 1,500 years or so has shown it to have always been), down with Catholicism and everything it stands for!

iStateOfMind3 iii

That's the difference between you and me Robert, I don't require a thumbs up to make me feel validated in my opinions. I've voiced my opinion and stood by my principles in places where there was more than just a thumbs down at stake : ]

iStateOfMind3 iii

Just like almost every prominent country in the world at the moment Robert, what should we do about the deformed children being born in Palestine and Iraq due to chemical weapon use by these countries? Let's get an opinion on that and see if your empathy extends there, since there are very few people in the world doing this atm. Are YOU willing to reject your citizenship based on what your government has done? This is the position you are asking me to put myself in so why don't you lead by example? After we are done with these more pertinent issues maybe we can talk about space and blackholes, sh!t like that...

docoman

Umm, I've got a couple links posted to you that are awaiting moderators' clearance. You'll see in that, and if you look into recent 'going's on' in Australia, the resistance to a proper investigation by people, including police officers destroying evidence,, a police 'whistle-blower' breaking the truth and a public outcry. There was a inquiry started in NSW, and then the biggest you can get here in Aus, a Royal Commission started by our now ex Prime Minister.

The Catholic response to a inquiry (take note here) 'into child abuse in institutions, including church, (all, not just Catholic), public schools, orphanages, child detention etc,
being investigated', Cardinal Pell held a press conference, and stated he didn't like the way the Catholic Church had been 'singled out' (they haven't been singled out at all!!)
There is the added disgust, that people that preach hope, supposed good, clean morals and living are so disturbingly involved in covering up what they should be stamping out, not hiding!
Pell also stated that priests were allowed to disobey the law of the land and not give evidence from what they'd been told in confession.
So shame to you and you're ' just ask some 3'rd party for forgiveness and all is good' idea. Try asking the victims for their forgiveness first.
That'd be the decent start.

iStateOfMind3 iii

Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence In The House Of God - Take a look at this doc.
I have no problem with people knowing what exactly went on, and fully support anyone who was a victim of these people in their uphill struggle to find justice. Just so you know.

robertallen1

How insecure you must be if you have to resort to mentioning thumbs up versus thumbs down.

robertallen1

Attempting to change the subject by bringing in the irrelevancy of deformed children born in Palestine and Iraq due to chemical weapons, obviously a cheap ploy for sympathy, is consistent with your support of something which is rotten down to its very core.

robertallen1

I'm glad that you have no problem with people knowing what exactly went on--especially now that it's all come out, no thanks to the vile organization you represent and uphold.

docoman

Another point we agree on :)

What about people that had a duty to report it to police and didn't?
P.S And I guess it also leaves the question of, what do you define 'justice' as?

docoman

I had a chat with a Muslim recently on here, that tried to claim as a miracle that in the Indian Ocean Tsunami Boxing Day 2004, some poor fishing villages had the Mosque as the only building left standing, 'clearly a miracle from Allah'. :( I pointed out the same wave left other newer, bigger buildings standing elsewhere, and all that proved is that the only decent, expensive, well-built buildings in those fishing villages were the Mosques, the only that had the $ to do it. And where did they get that... the poor villages that lost their cheaper, less solid homes.

They (religions), have many things in common, most of them negative. :(

iStateOfMind3 iii

Justice should be applied by the same standard as we would wish to be judged. Unfortunately as good as five minutes in a room with one of these guys would feel its just not going to fix anything.

robertallen1

Which guys?

robertallen1

You might wish to read about Monsignor William J. Lynn and Bishop Robert Finn who were convicted respectively for failing to report suspected child abuse and the finding of child porn images on a priest's computer. I guess that they thought they were above the secular law.

iStateOfMind3 iii

People like Cardinal Pell, who else.

Oh I see you thought I meant you. No, just no.

iStateOfMind3 iii

Since my comment asking you to answer the question was removed I'll ask again. How come the set of principles you apply to the Catholic church don't universally apply to your country/government, in relation to the dramatically high infant mortality and deformity rate in Iraq, which is a direct result of DU/white phosphorous use?
If the mods are going to delete comments they should at least tell us what we did wrong so we don't repeat the mistake. Also you don't want to be seen to be censoring people trying to rationally state their point in a respectful manner. Either way class acts all round.

robertallen1

No, it wasn't deleted. So I'll repeated my answer.

Attempting to change the subject by bringing in the irrelevancy of deformed children born in Palestine and Iraq due to chemical weapons, obviously a cheap ploy for sympathy, is consistent with your support of something which is rotten down to its very core

iStateOfMind3 iii

Oh yes it was deleted,not the first time I asked, but the second time since you refused to answer. You even responded to my point about your cognitive dissonance : ]
Find that comment for me if it hasn't been deleted. Like i said before it doesn't take a thumbs up for me to feel validated in my opinions, deleteing my comments does that better than a thumbs up ever will.

robertallen1

I am not a moderator. So if you're worried about one of your comments being deleted, take it up with them.

iStateOfMind3 iii

I don't really see any point in doing that, but thanks for the advice.

iStateOfMind3 iii

I mentioned St Columbanus to you in an earlier comment as his writings are as relevant to today's Catholic Church as they were then. Indulge me and read this brief article on him, as it details the kind of critique we Catholics would LOVE to see within the church atm. Oh, I'm also an Irishman, another to reason to want to preserve my heritage. I think citing this type of history is more effective in reforming the leadership of the Church than me abandoning my faith to men who defame it in the eyes of the world.

'Many scholars have discerned a truculence, if not arrogance, in Columbanus’s works. For them, he is a brash and abrasive old Irishman. However, in many cases his direct manner of speaking has obscured for a
modern readership the subtlety of his theology and the spiritual depth of his arguments which are founded on biblical learning and the writings of the Church Fathers. He adapted that learning to find solutions to the problems that he and his Church faced. The causes of poor leadership
– especially spiritual – that he diagnoses in his letters and sermons are as relevant now as when he wrote almost one-and-a-half millennia ago. Leadership, for Columbanus, is a matter of service to others, not a quest to fulfil personal ambition. Problems start when that order is reversed, that is, when leaders fail to act selflessly in exercising their power to guide those over whom they have been given authority, but instead see power as an opportunity for personal or institutional advancement and enrichment. The pastor who sets the material or reputational standing of his institution above the spiritual well-being of his flock is courting disaster. The worldly cleric cannot warn or reprimand the wayward, especially if the offender is powerful, for he is vulnerable to any threat to his wealth and reputation, or to the wealth and reputation of his Church. It is precisely for this reason that Columbanus believes that monks make the best spiritual guides. Detached from the world, they are unassailable. They cannot be pressured by threatening their wealth or family; they have none. They are immune even to threats to their lives for, writes Columbanus in his letter to the Gaulish, or French, bishops, they follow the good shepherd (John 10) who laid down his life for his sheep. Columbanus’s analogy is pointed for the implication is that bishops are too concerned with material things and, therefore, their leadership is defective. As an example of their failure to cut their ties to the world, Columbanus mentions at the end
of his letter to Pope Gregory the Great that he has heard their confessions and knows that, even after they entered the clerical state, they continue to sleep with their wives.'

robertallen1

You and your despicable brood are responsible for the death of Savita Halappanavar. You and your despicable brood have stood in the way of the liberalized abortion laws so needed by Ireland and the rest of the world. To hell with St. Columbanus. Actions speak louder than words.

docoman

To answer that question myself, of course there is things in my countries past I'm not proud of. The way the original peoples, the Australian Aborigine, were treated, murdered, enslaved in some cases, stolen from in others is deplorable. I am truly saddened by the loss of the knowledge, that took tens of thousands of years to accumulate, is fast being lost in not much more then 200 years. Tragic. Finally, in '07 our new (at the time) PM finally gave a public apology for the actions of the government towards the Aboriginal peoples that were wrong in the past. As far as I'm concerned, being an Aussie has nothing to do with skin colour, it's about your attitude towards this country. Will you fight and die to protect the country and people if need be. Is it yours, and any of your children's homeland now. Will you fit in with the system that's here now, political and legal. Have whatever religion you wish, but keep it to yourself, keep it legal, and keep it out of the government, law and science classroom.

I also was against some other more recent choices, going into Afghanistan and Iraq without UN go-ahead was wrong IMO. One of our past PM's lied to us and took us to war, as far as I'm concerned John Howard, George Bush and Tony Blair should be charged with war crimes. Most of the soldiers only do/did what they're ordered to, look to the people making the decisions higher up the chain.

There are also many things I'm proud of my country for, and we've also made many good choices and actions as well. Our social system, help for the sick and poor, (even though it still has much to be desired), our intake per capita of refugees per year are all good things we do.

Finally, we're saying enough, child abuse in institutions is not going to be tolerated any more. A very good thing. If the Catholic, Lutheran, Seventh Day Adventist, Muslim, state care, both for help and for offenses (kid's jail) or whomever don't like it and don't like the bad publicity.. too bad! Shouldn't have tolerated it in any way, straight up, to any guilty groups and individuals. Shame, and the legal price is coming.

How can you be so dismissive of Cardinal Pell, when he's now promoted to one of the most influential leaders in your Church. Same on you and your whole lot for tolerating it!

iStateOfMind3 iii

It would be the Australian police and justice system tolerating it, not me. Are we really back here again?

robertallen1

Notice how State of Mind is trying to deflect the focus away from the vile institution of which he forms a proud part..

docoman

What your mob does isn't going to be 'swept under the carpet', forgotten, fade into history that easy. So that's all you've got to say about Pell being rewarded for being a scumbag?

iStateOfMind3 iii

I already did much earlier today when I had a lot more energy to robustly express my opinion on people like Pell and what they have done to my religion. It kind of reminds me of that whole Jerry Sandusky scandal in the States.

iStateOfMind3 iii

'To hell with St. Columbanus.'
Hell? O.o

hanorabrennan

I wonder is it true about the diocese in Sydney paying for children's private education ... now why would Pell do that I wonder? A lot more has to be revealed about this repellent creature (pardon the pun - intentional).

hanorabrennan

They also raped children by the thousands as evidenced by the Ryan Report of 2009. They've taken and taken all through the centuries and now it's payback time. Your religion or spirituality should spring from within and not from without. A lot of Jews walked to their deaths in the 2nd world war because of their belief system.

sk3litor

thats exactly what your assuming. and its rediculous. thats like saying cnn is the voice of protistants. al jazeera is the name of a news station and in no way shape or form the "word" of any particular religion. c'mon man do a little research my friend.

Charlie

Typical of this filthy superstitious pedophelic placebo

blu paws

Get over it u got massive chip on shoulder, shenanigan. Said notjing of the sort

Bruce Black

I wish people would post some constructive critisism instead of puking up nonsense.

Yes it is a scandal and i dont like the Vatican in any way.
But please dont throw this on the same pile as the belief or a religion.
It has NOTHING to do with that or people's evil intentions.
People are commenting really stupid crap that only shows they are really uneducated and misunderstand everything because of it.

Finally, the word of God has nothing to do with a bunch of criminally insane pope lovers

Hoender

isn't that a muslim sign at the bottom left of this video?

certavi et vici

The latent arrogance required to even remotely claim to know "the word of God" is staggering and revealing. The Vatican and all related to it is grotesque on a nearly unrivaled order of magnitude, and at once bears an unmistakable and straight line to all "faith"...that for which there can never be any (verifiable, critically vetted, and reproducible) proof.

The idea that one displays their "humility" by proclaiming their personal relationship with a supreme, designing and intervening deity is laughable.

As a very, very wise, albeit actual, man said: "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

berk

just at the beginning of the documentary, when they say IOR, I thought it stand for I Owe Religion, like in IOU's (I Owe yoU's in markets).....though i should share this invaluable epiphany with you...you should all be greatful...to me.