World Families Forums - French P312+: Amazement!

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Hey! I was looking at the French/French-Canadian/ Acadian/Metis/ Cajun DNA Project's Y results page and discovered a treasure trove of green (SNP tested) R1b1b2a1b entries who are NOT yet members of the R-P312 and Subclades Project. Wow!

I sent an email to the project's admin asking him to bulk email his members and encourage those who are P312+ to join the project. Maybe he'll help us out.

I'm also wondering - naturally - if any of these gentlemen has an L21+ result.

Maybe this is no surprise to you, but I was blown away by the number of green R1b1b2a1bs in this project who aren't in our project, not to mention all the red and green R1b1b2s who have not been tested for P312 but who very well may be R1b1b2a1b themselves.

lol, after the SNP gold rush I hope there's still a spare 'identity' remaining for the poor P312* subclades who are still waiting for their SNP.

I think we're all too late, Chris. U106 (S21) and U152 (S28) were discovered in 2005, and pretty quickly some of their partisans snatched up the most glamorous and heroic tribes, designating the rest of us as "aborigines" or what I liked to characterize as the "cast of thousands" who formed the backdrop to their exploits.

lol, after the SNP gold rush I hope there's still a spare 'identity' remaining for the poor P312* subclades who are still waiting for their SNP.

I think we're all too late, Chris. U106 (S21) and U152 (S28) were discovered in 2005, and pretty quickly some of their partisans snatched up the most glamorous and heroic tribes, designating the rest of us as "aborigines" or what I liked to characterize as the "cast of thousands" who formed the backdrop to their exploits.

Pickings are pretty slim, regardless of where we show up on the map.

I wish originators would retract the labels. They do add some "life" or meaning but they are so misleading I don't think it is worth it.

The labeling of SNP sub-clades as "Frisian", "Le Tene Celt" or what have you is very misleading. To the uninitiated, the implication is that all people with that SNP are Y descendants of the specified label. A second implication is that if you don't have that SNP, the group must not be a Y ancestor for you. Either implication could and probably is totally false in most cases.

In all likelihood, these groups were large enough and not isolated enough that that would have had several different sub-clades. Eventually, we may find certain haplotype clusters of certain sub-clades, or sub-sub-clades may have been relegated to certain groups. Undoubtedly this will be the case at some point back in time to some ancient people, but we are not there yet.

Personally I lay the whole U152=Celtic and U106=Germanic at Dr. Faux's door. When P312 was discovered, many people just substituted it for U152 and changed it to pan-Celtic. I am always astounded how many still believe these labels are valid despite a nearly complete absence of supporting evidence.

I wish originators would retract the labels. They do add some "life" or meaning but they are so misleading I don't think it is worth it.

The labeling of SNP sub-clades as "Frisian", "Le Tene Celt" or what have you is very misleading. To the uninitiated, the implication is that all people with that SNP are Y descendants of the specified label. A second implication is that if you don't have that SNP, the group must not be a Y ancestor for you. Either implication could and probably is totally false in most cases.

In all likelihood, these groups were large enough and not isolated enough that that would have had several different sub-clades. Eventually, we may find certain haplotype clusters of certain sub-clades, or sub-sub-clades may have been relegated to certain groups. Undoubtedly this will be the case at some point back in time to some ancient people, but we are not there yet.

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Well said Mike.There are a lot of Walsh's in Ireland and they dont all have a common ancestor.

I agree but.... I had some mail exchanges with a few french archeologists and the U152 / U106 split is obviously unexpected. The gaul / germans difference of Julius Caesar time seems to be interpreted as just semantic while genetics is pointing to something. The 2 populations aren't really mixed up so the split U152 / U106 must have been visible on a cultural point of view ; impossible to say : " well the celts might have been a mixture of U152 and U106" , it doesn't fit. So, the U152 / U106 split requires an explanation and there is no name for it . We need more data on the extent of U106 in Austria but I am wondering if U106 is the Hallstadt signature (and migration to Holland region would be a later event) and U152 would be the La Tene signature. U106 seems to be a "recent" SNP btu it might be that it's so in Holland, not when considering Austrian samples . I don't know but we need to face the fact that this split exists and a name is required for it.

I agree but.... I had some mail exchanges with a few french archeologists and the U152 / U106 split is obviously unexpected. The gaul / germans difference of Julius Caesar time seems to be interpreted as just semantic while genetics is pointing to something. The 2 populations aren't really mixed up so the split U152 / U106 must have been visible on a cultural point of view ; impossible to say : " well the celts might have been a mixture of U152 and U106" , it doesn't fit. So, the U152 / U106 split requires an explanation and there is no name for it . We need more data on the extent of U106 in Austria but I am wondering if U106 is the Hallstadt signature (and migration to Holland region would be a later event) and U152 would be the La Tene signature. U106 seems to be a "recent" SNP btu it might be that it's so in Holland, not when considering Austrian samples . I don't know but we need to face the fact that this split exists and a name is required for it.

You are leaving P312 out of the equation. It is my own view that these subclades originated in the neolithic and by the time of the Bronze age they were integrated in a number of areas, especially in central Germany and along the Rhine valley. That wouldn't preclude some areas of Europe from having greater percentages of one subclade over the other. But I think any attempt to equate these neolithic divisions with Iron Age cultures is misleading.

Weren't these subclades all over Europe in the Neolithic?Why the obsession with Germany?There were other haplogroups in Germany as well.R1b is 48% of those tested.No-one ever talks about which tribes these other haplogroups belonged to!!

Well, at this point we reach the discussion on dating of haplotypes . Recently, the ice age refugium was ruled out and it was said that R1b1b2 is fairly young : around 5000 years . Neolithic in Europe started 7000 years ago (in the western part of Europe but earlier in the east) .

Now, to go back to the french case, I would say that the progressive colonization of Gaul from the east by U152 let me wonder what population was there before. I also have a question in my mind about the impact of the roman conquest on the genetics ; what's the roman genetic signature ? France is a case where this question is particularly important because roman settlement was important. We still have a lot to learn.

Weren't these subclades all over Europe in the Neolithic?Why the obsession with Germany?There were other haplogroups in Germany as well.R1b is 48% of those tested.No-one ever talks about which tribes these other haplogroups belonged to!!

You popped in once before to make a vague implication about us discussing Scandinavia. Now here you are in a thread about P312+ in France wondering about some imagined "obsession" with Germany.

In case you haven't noticed, this subforum is the R1b1b2 Forum. We come here to discuss R1b1b2. Think that might be why we don't spend a lot of time wondering about other y haplogroups?

Well, at this point we reach the discussion on dating of haplotypes . Recently, the ice age refugium was ruled out and it was said that R1b1b2 is fairly young : around 5000 years . Neolithic in Europe started 7000 years ago (in the western part of Europe but earlier in the east) .

Now, to go back to the french case, I would say that the progressive colonization of Gaul from the east by U152 let me wonder what population was there before. I also have a question in my mind about the impact of the roman conquest on the genetics ; what's the roman genetic signature ? France is a case where this question is particularly important because roman settlement was important. We still have a lot to learn.

What makes you think there was a "progressive colonization of Gaul from the east by U152"? We don't know that. That's Faux's assumption.

Look at the maps of R-P312* and R-L21* in France. I think between the two of them and the other non-U152 R1b1b2 subclades, we have U152 outnumbered in France.

I was going to mention that lately the number of R-P312* in France has been steadily growing. We added a new French R-L21* tonight (Chartier), but that follows a number of recent R-P312* additions there (check out the maps - I haven't been able to add Chartier to the R-L21* Map yet, though).

Weren't these subclades all over Europe in the Neolithic?Why the obsession with Germany?There were other haplogroups in Germany as well.R1b is 48% of those tested.No-one ever talks about which tribes these other haplogroups belonged to!!

I am not "obsessed" with Germany, or Scandinavia either for that matter. I AM interested in the distribution in Europe of U106 and P312, and Scandinavia and Germany are looking like areas where the two subclades are reasonably well integrated. The areas where the subclades are integrated is just as imporatnt to working out their history as the areas where they are in largely separated.

This reply is to Rich : I agree that we don't know for sure that U152 homeland is around southern Germany. This is an opportunity to point to a surprising absence of academic studies on U152, U106 ,and now L21. L21 was only recently uncovered but U152 and U106 have been around for 3 years. It's true that testing of individuals is low in France but the main problem is the absence of academic papers on these subclades (I forgot to name P312 - another important marker with no publication). In this desert I have to admit that I found the correlation between U152 and La Tene Celts interesting.

Recently, several studies using the chipset technology used by 23andME and deCODEme to analyze SNPs on all chromosomes were published. Actually they reported on the 22 autosomal chromosomes and nothing on the Y chromosome which is amazing since 23andME and deCODEme have the chipset with Y SNPs and the same DNA samples could be run on these chipsets. I don't know if I am missing some still unpublished information but the data could be public by now and they aren't.

Weren't these subclades all over Europe in the Neolithic?Why the obsession with Germany?There were other haplogroups in Germany as well.R1b is 48% of those tested.No-one ever talks about which tribes these other haplogroups belonged to!!

You popped in once before to make a vague implication about us discussing Scandinavia. Now here you are in a thread about P312+ in France wondering about some imagined "obsession" with Germany.

In case you haven't noticed, this subforum is the R1b1b2 Forum. We come here to discuss R1b1b2. Think that might be why we don't spend a lot of time wondering about other y haplogroups?

I am not sure I understand what your difficulty is.

I have no difficulty at all.Are you saying that all the farmers came from the East and were all M269?Do you not think they could have been a mixture of haplogroups?

Weren't these subclades all over Europe in the Neolithic?Why the obsession with Germany?There were other haplogroups in Germany as well.R1b is 48% of those tested.No-one ever talks about which tribes these other haplogroups belonged to!!

You popped in once before to make a vague implication about us discussing Scandinavia. Now here you are in a thread about P312+ in France wondering about some imagined "obsession" with Germany.

In case you haven't noticed, this subforum is the R1b1b2 Forum. We come here to discuss R1b1b2. Think that might be why we don't spend a lot of time wondering about other y haplogroups?

I am not sure I understand what your difficulty is.

I have no difficulty at all.Are you saying that all the farmers came from the East and were all M269?Do you not think they could have been a mixture of haplogroups?

I haven't heard anyone say that all farmers are R-M269, or anything else for that matter.

Not all, but many who are looking at the Y-DNA phylogenetic tree, counting SNP's accumulated down each branch and haplotype diversity within a branch, are concluding that R-M269 and it's sub-clades (the major ones being P312 and U106) appear to have expanded quickly on the scene in Central and Western Europe only a few thousand years ago. Possibly this would be during the Iron Age, but no early then the start of the Neolithic Age. R-M269 appears have come out of Southwest Asia, possibly out of Anatolia (Turkey) or the Pontic Steppes, before its explosive growth in Europe.

The carrier groups might have been Yamanaya cultures, Bell Beaker cultures, LBK Neolithic cultures or Impressed Wares Neolithic cultures.... or a number of others including Bronze Age Celtic types. I don't think anyone thinks it was a pure single Y haplogroup culture that R-M269's subclades spread with.

I don't know of any obsessions with Germany, but some Celtic groups seem to have emanated from the Southern Germany, Austria, Czech Republic area. Bell Beaker folks may have emanated from slightly east in Hungary. From a DNA testing standpoint, we've got a lot of samples in the public databases from the British Isles, but near as many from Continental Europe, i.e. Germany and particularly France. From that perspective, any new French and German geographic results are useful.

Weren't these subclades all over Europe in the Neolithic?Why the obsession with Germany?There were other haplogroups in Germany as well.R1b is 48% of those tested.No-one ever talks about which tribes these other haplogroups belonged to!!

You popped in once before to make a vague implication about us discussing Scandinavia. Now here you are in a thread about P312+ in France wondering about some imagined "obsession" with Germany.

In case you haven't noticed, this subforum is the R1b1b2 Forum. We come here to discuss R1b1b2. Think that might be why we don't spend a lot of time wondering about other y haplogroups?

I am not sure I understand what your difficulty is.

I have no difficulty at all.Are you saying that all the farmers came from the East and were all M269?Do you not think they could have been a mixture of haplogroups?

Mike's answer was good, but I want to add my own.

This is the R1b1b2 subforum at World Families. All or most of us who post here are R1b1b2 of some kind. That's what we come here to talk about: our own y-dna ancestors. We are all fully aware that Europe has plenty of other haplogroups and that their members played an important role in the continent's development. I myself have several I1 lines in my family tree that I know about.

But if you are looking for lots of discussion on y haplogroups other than R1b1b2, you're in the wrong place.

And we are going to talk about the places where our subclades are found, not about the places where they are not.

Im M269 myself and I just find it hard to understand why everytime I come on this forum I see L21 found in Germany and P312 found in France etc. They have been around Europe for thousands of years.I looked at your maps and Im thinking how would anyone ever be able to place the origin of these groups?I think also that youre reading too much into what Im saying.

Im M269 myself and I just find it hard to understand why everytime I come on this forum I see L21 found in Germany and P312 found in France etc. They have been around Europe for thousands of years.I looked at your maps and Im thinking how would anyone ever be able to place the origin of these groups?I think also that youre reading too much into what Im saying.

Sigh . . .

Continental results are important in trying to decipher the history of P312 and its subclades, including L21. That is the reason for the repeated mention of France, Germany, etc.

When you apparently objected to our discussing L21 in Scandinavia, you said something like, "What is behind this?" Then, in this thread about P312 in France, you accused us of having an "obsession" with Germany.

How am I not supposed to read things into what you write when you write like that?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but you sounded like some sort of pc policeman, afraid we were spending too much time talking about - gasp! - white people.

If you have looked at the maps, then you know there are clines in the distribution of the various y haplogroups, and they are not hopelessly scattered and jumbled all about Europe.

Our hope is that the accumulation of data will eventually give us some clues as to the origin of our ancestors. That is what all this stuff is about.

Im M269 myself and I just find it hard to understand why everytime I come on this forum I see L21 found in Germany and P312 found in France etc. They have been around Europe for thousands of years.I looked at your maps and Im thinking how would anyone ever be able to place the origin of these groups?I think also that youre reading too much into what Im saying.

Feel free to start a R-M269* thread. Vince Vizachero is leading the research group consisting of those who are M269+ but P312- and U106-, but most of those discussions are happening on the Rootsweb GENEALOGY-DNA list and dna-forums.org