Even in Italy, Christian converts from Islam live in fear of reprisals

A hadith depicts Muhammad saying: “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him” (Bukhari 9.84.57). The death penalty for apostasy is part of Islamic law according to all the schools of Islamic jurisprudence.

This is still the position of all the schools of Islamic jurisprudence, both Sunni and Shi’ite. Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the most renowned and prominent Muslim cleric in the world, has stated: “The Muslim jurists are unanimous that apostates must be punished, yet they differ as to determining the kind of punishment to be inflicted upon them. The majority of them, including the four main schools of jurisprudence (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i, and Hanbali) as well as the other four schools of jurisprudence (the four Shiite schools of Az-Zaidiyyah, Al-Ithna-‘ashriyyah, Al-Ja’fariyyah, and Az-Zaheriyyah) agree that apostates must be executed.”

Qaradawi also once famously said: “If they had gotten rid of the apostasy punishment, Islam wouldn’t exist today.”

Even in Italy, some Muslims believe these laws apply.

“Even in Italy, Christian Converts from Islam Live in Fear of Reprisals,” by Thomas D. Williams, Breitbart, February 8, 2016 (thanks to Pamela Geller):

Recent reports suggest that over a thousand converts to Christianity from Islam currently live in Italy, but hide their conversions for fear of retaliation from the Muslim community against themselves and their families.

A 55-year-old Egyptian chemical engineer who now works a waiter in a city of central Italy, was a fervent Muslim who converted to Christianity in Italy after the death of his mother and was baptized three years ago.

The man, who asked to remain anonymous to avoid retribution from Muslims, said that the decisive element in his conversion came from seeing Christians with “a humanity more complete than mine” and wanting to find what they had found.

Still, he openly expresses his frustration with having to hide his newfound faith. “I cannot openly practice my Christian faith. I am afraid that some fanatical Muslim may do harm not only to me, but especially to relatives who remained in Egypt.”

“How is it,” he asks, “that Italians who convert to Islam can go on TV and talk about it, and instead I have to hide to avoid retaliation?”

The name Italians are using to refer to the believers who must conceal their religion as “ghost Christians.”

In Islamic countries, conversion to another faith always implies serious consequences. The crime of apostasy is punishable in different ways, from “civil death” (job loss, the denial of education of children and certain rights, breakdown of family ties), to prison sentences or the death penalty.

Yet even when living in western countries, “apostate” Muslims can live under a threat of harm to their own persons, and especially to family members still living in lands with an Islamic majority.

“Even in a land of emigration, the apostate is the subject of disapproval, threats or violence on the part of their community, or of his own family,” said Father Samir Khalil Samir, an Islamic scholar. “Hence the need for converts to live in confidentiality.”

Samir says that much of the problem comes from the holistic Islamic view of religion and society that makes no distinction between one area of life and another.

“Islam is not only a religion but also politics, culture and society. It penetrates into the smallest of matters. There is no separation between faith and politics, and this is why the believer in Allah finds it hard to distinguish Christianity from the West,” Samir said.

“That’s why a Muslim who converts to another religion commits a betrayal of the community: he not only betrays his faith, but also his own people and the nation. In short, one can convert to Islam but it is forbidden to leave,” he said.

“Despite all this, the phenomenon of Muslims who become Christians, thanks to satellite television and the web, is increasingly popular,” he said.

The phenomenon of Muslim converts to Christianity who are forced to hide their faith out of fear of being assassinated by Islamic extremists is nothing new. An article in the Italian daily Corriere della Sera back in 2003 bore the title “The new Catacombs of Islamic Converts.” It investigated Muslim converts to Christianity in Italy who decried their profound spiritual and human solitude in the face of state institutions that do not protect them and the silence of the Church itself.

Nor is Italy alone in the experience of converts from Islam living in fear in the West. In 2014, a Christian group launched a national network of safe houses in Britain for converts from Islam who were facing ostracism or violent reprisals for “apostatizing.”

Reports stated that at the time there were between 1,100 and 3,000 former Muslims at risk in Britain.

The chief organizer of the group called Christian Concern, Andrea Williams, said: “We are motivated by a deep sense of love and compassion for those that feel trapped in a situation from which they cannot escape.”

“The penalty for them at best is to be cut off from their family; at worst they face death. This is happening not just in Sudan and Nigeria but in east London. The government has failed to deal with the rise in anti-Christian sentiment,” she said.

Angemon: Islam is a Fascist Ideology, when the adherents move to a host country and when their numbers become great enough they become very political, they create many well financed alphabet organizations with leaders that know how to use Traitorous politicians to their advantage. They have done this in America and we are seeing the results today, look at the key positions they hold in our government. This should frighten every Liberty loving American because our children and grandchildren with have to deal with these anti-Constitution freaks. The state of MN elected a Muslim congressman who used a Qur’an to take his oath of office, I can imagine what that oath is,and it’s not good for non Muslims a real shame how ignorant this country has become as a whole.

Yet they have the gall to dare to insist we respect their so-called ‘religion’
When the ‘diaper gets full and overflows, it is time for a change.
Muslims are so full of it. The Qur’an is for WIPING not for reading.
Piles and piles of Islam are stinking up the planet.

Vigilante murder is normative Islam, rather than an aberration. Vigilante murder of apostates is authenticated by the fatwa department of Al Azhar University, Islam’s top Sharia authority.

Bukhari (84:64-65) – “Allah’s Apostle: ‘During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'”

Sharia law: The “Bill of Legal Punishments” says (p.12), “A person guilty of apostasy (man or woman) shall be put to death if repentance is not made within the period allowed which shall not exceed sixty days. Repentance of a person who commits apostasy more than twice shall not be accepted.

In 1992, Islamist militants gunned down Egyptian secularist Farag Foda. Before his death, he had been declared an apostate and enemy of Islam. During the trial of the murderers, Al Azhar scholar Muhammad al-Ghazali testified that when the state fails to punish apostates, somebody else has to do it.

No doctrine depends on a single Koranic verse, but on the Koran, hadiths, Sira and canonical rulings. What is ‘normative Islam’ is decided by the fatwa department at Al Azhar University, not by private opinion. In the 1992 murder of apostate Farag Foda, Al Azhar’s scholars argued that when the state fails to punish apostates, “somebody else has to do it.”

I can’t agree with apostasy which is yet another corruption of Islam by scholars.

The Quran which is supposed to be the Word of God for these people says there is no compulsion in religion yet they’ve changed Islam so much that they now have a man made counterfeit religion bested mostly on Hadiths instead of following what was originally taught

They have simply side-stepped these clear verses of the Quran and substituted their own meanings to try and justify maintaining membership which involves killing Baha’is who many have an Islamic background.

“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things,” (2:256).

109:1-6

SAY: O unbelievers, I will not worship that which ye worship; nor will ye worship that which I worship. Neither do I worship that which ye worship; neither do ye worship that which I worship. Ye have your religion, and I my religion.

Muhammad’s best friend, the first Caliph Abu Bakr, felt strongly enough about apostasy that he killed “rebel” Muslims by the tens of thousands in the Ridda (Apostasy) wars. This was before there were any “scholars.” It was because Muhammad said “whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him” and because he said things such as any Muslim taking Jews or Christians for friends or allies is one of them, an apostate, and subject to the same zero-sum war he declared on all disbelievers. Muhammad himself had a mosque he decided was a “rival” burned down, intending to kill the worshippers inside. That’s why Islamic scholars made apostasy a capital offense. As usual, you don’t know what you are talking about.

No one on this site is stupid or ignorant enough to swallow your deliberate, insulting, dishonest garbage. You are sick and sickening, and might as well get lost, you only amuse and disgust people here.

I can’t agree with apostasy which is yet another corruption of Islam by scholars.
……………………………

Well, that’s just bizarre, since the original Baha’i were *themselves* apostates from Islam. How can “worldcitizen1919” say he believes in freedom if he can’t agree with the right to leave any faith–*including* Islam?

More:

The Quran which is supposed to be the Word of God for these people says there is no compulsion in religion yet they’ve changed Islam so much that they now have a man made counterfeit religion bested mostly on Hadiths instead of following what was originally taught

They have simply side-stepped these clear verses of the Quran and substituted their own meanings to try and justify maintaining membership which involves killing Baha’is who many have an Islamic background.

“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things,” (2:256).
……………………………

What “worldcitizen1919” will not tell you is the the Ayats following Qur’an 2:256 condemn unbelievers.

109:1-6

SAY: O unbelievers, I will not worship that which ye worship; nor will ye worship that which I worship. Neither do I worship that which ye worship; neither do ye worship that which I worship. Ye have your religion, and I my religion.
……………………………

Qur’an 109–Al-Kafirun–is not about live and let live. Instead, it clearly delineates the difference between Muslims and the unbelievers.

And again, only someone as lacking in intelligence and integrity as you, could possibly swallow the utter drivel and pathetic fabrications that you so stupidly post here. Fin some site where stupid people gather, you can probably sell your lies there.

“There is no separation between faith and politics, and this is why the believer in Allah finds it hard to distinguish Christianity from the West,” Samir said.”

This is also why Islamic Fundamentalists make the fatal mistake of thinking Western governments are weak, equating them to the ME Christians who cannot defend themselves. It is, in fact, armies under a secular banner that will ultimately destroy them because most Western people, regardless of spiritual beliefs, can agree to fight for freedom. Worse yet, they will find less democratic countries, like Russia, also rejecting any control by Islamists.

We mistakenly point to the Russians leaving Afghanistan because of defeat by Islamists when the real reason was that the brutality required might lead to direct conflict with the West. Vietnam was abandoned for the same reason – Americans and other Western countries would not accept genocide in their name. Putin appears to have no such regard not concern for “collateral damage”.

I have no doubt that Islamic Fundamentalism will fail; I just don’t know how long it will take for governments to realize they are not in a minor conflict.

“Vietnam was abandoned for the same reason – Americans and other Western countries would not accept genocide in their name.”

That is pure rubbish. The viet cong had been decimated, they had lost, and lost badly…. South Vietnam held on for a couple of years against the communist north vietnamese aggression, with no indication that they would fall. Until the US, thanks to cowardly and dishonest dem party members, voted to cut off their support. They lost because the US sold them out.

Of course they think the apostasy laws apply. Traditional Muslims by definition are fundamentalist and the prescription for apostates is universal, so to argue otherwise is to mark yourself out as a reformer of Islam, which brings you close to the ranks of the apostates and the resultant threat to life and limb.

In Italy the Catholic Church should be openly championing the cause of Muslim Apostates generally while also publicly welcoming, into the flock, those who have chosen to live Christian lives. This would demonstrate the compassionate ideal, instead of the confused neo Marxist sentiments of the Argentinian incumbent.

In Italy the Catholic Church should be openly championing the cause of Muslim Apostate.

This is so true, and yet the Catholic Church is once again on the wrong side of history to the detriment of its own followers. The pope’s misguided liberality is going to be their undoing. Some time ago I asked an Italian if she was concerned for the safety of the Vatican with regards to bombings. She said, “Oh, no one would ever DARE harm the Vatican—it’s the center of the Catholic world!” She was serious. We’ll see.

Italy is little bit better for ex-muslims than for example of UK, Sweden, Denmark, Norway or Holland or even Germany. The Italian have still a little of spine left in their backs. Spain is realty bad for ex-muslims, not better than other Northern European states. Postmodernism is wreaking havoc in Spain!

E Ward: It is not only the pope himself that is misguided at this time, but the teaching of the church itself concerning Islam. See the document *Nostra Aetate* of Oct 28, 1965 and also the document *Lumen Gentium* of Nov. 21, 1964. In the *Luimen* one it says in chapter II (2) “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” All of this is not true. What the Bible teaches is true. Salvation is by grace, for Jesus’s sake, through faith in Him. And that truth, as we all know, is as far from Islam as heaven is far from hell. .

For more information: the two classic studies of the Islamic apostasy law are by Samuel Zwemer “The Law of Apostasy in Islam” (which has been digitised and can be read online – just google the title and author’s name and you should find it), and ex-Muslim Canon Patrick Sookhdeo’s “Freedom to Believe: Challenging Islam’s Apostasy Law” which complements Zwemer’s work nicely and gives a good account of the contemporary situation as regards practice and enforcement of the law in Islamic countries and communities *today*. Both Zwemer and Sookhdeo discuss the Islamic texts that support mistreatment and killing of apostates, and give a good overview of the traditional – mainstream – readings of those texts.

The fact that classical Islam commands the killing of an apostate is one of the first things I learned about Islam, back in the day, long before I ever encountered Jihadwatch.

Sometime in the late 1980s or early 1990s I encountered two books – little Christian paperbacks – giving the personal testimony of two Pakistani apostates from Islam, converts to Christianity, both of them women who had been raised within well-to-do, well-educated and (to any outside observer) superficially westernised “moderate” Muslim families. One converted in her teens, one converted in her early middle age. Both discovered that, the moment their apostasy was known, their previously quite ‘nice’ and affectionate family members morphed into terrifying, flaming-eyed, murderous strangers who rejected them and threatened them. Both had to flee from their families and from Pakistan, into other countries. And both, in their books, calmly explain that Islam requires that the apostate be killed.

The two books – probably easy enough to find on Amazon or elsewhere – are “The Torn Veil” by Sister Gulshan Esther, and “I Dared To Call Him Father”, by Bilquis Sheikh. (The “Him” in Sheikh’s book title is God; Muslims do not and cannot call ‘Allah’ “Father”, so addressing the – Biblical – God as “Father” was a totally new thing for her).

I will add that some time ago I know I read an article in which an apostate from Islam – possibly Ibn Warraq, but possibly someone else – explained that apparently nice, ‘moderate’, even apparently wholly-secularised – but still identifying as Muslim – Muslim people can undergo a terrifying transformation if someone they know ‘comes out’ as an apostate. I have been hunting through my e-clippings files for it, but have not yet been able to find the exact article so as to give the quote. It was very telling.

Just as the smiling mask of the ‘nice, moderate Muslim’ can melt off in seconds when the subject of Jews or of Israel comes up, so too can it melt off in seconds – and something horrifying come snarling out from beneath it – when the person discovers that their family member or coreligionist has left Islam.

He was interviewed by journalist Anthony Browne for an article published in the Times on 5 February 2005 (odd, that, that on February 9 I should be pulling up just that article), and titled “Muslim Apostates Cast Out and At Risk from Faith and Family”.

Here’s the passage I was remembering:

“…The most high-profile British apostate is Ibn Warraq, a Pakistani-born intellectual and former teacher from London, who lost his faith after the Salman Rushdie affair and set out his reasons in the book Why I am not a Muslim.

“He recently edited the book “Leaving Islam”, but finds it hard to explain the hostility.

“It’s very strange.

“**Even the most liberal Muslim can become incredibly fierce if you criticise Islam, or, horror of horrors, leave it.** {my emphasis – dda}”

‘He himself has taken the precaution of using only a pseudonym, and lives incognito in mainland Europe. He thinks that Islamic apostasy is common. “In Western societies, it is probably 10-15 per cent. It’s very difficult to tell, because people don’t admit it.”…’.

As far as I am concerned, the apostasy law – which is so very obviously and demonstrably *in operation* informally / de facto within the Ummah **within non-Muslim societies, including the UK and Italy, with apostates having to flee – or being thrown out of – their families, harassed, threatened, attacked, abused, living in hiding under changed names, like fugitives from the Mafia or some other organised crime ‘family’ – is a major “deal-breaker”.

It’s the thing – as well as Islam’s ubiquitous and deep-seated and aggressive antisemitism – that tells me that NO identifying/ identifiable Muslim should be permitted into *any* non-Muslim country.

Just as we are incredibly stupid and indeed wicked to import thousands of people who murderously hate Jews qua Jews and who *WILL* start attacking our peaceful and productive resident Jewish communities sooner or later, we also have NO business permitting, in our countries, the presence and operation of an Organisation whose adherents are taught, and do firmly believe that anyone who leaves *must be killed*, and whose behaviour toward those who *have* left demonstrably and repeatedly manifests in extreme and frequently murderous aggression.

When ‘Hannah Shah’, author of a very telling book called “The Imam’s Daughter”, having fled her Muslim family because of physical and sexual abuse and *then* converted to Christianity – and foolishly told said family – her imam father sent a mob of men armed with axes to attack the house where she was staying. In the event they weren’t able to break in…but if they had, they would have killed her. (She didn’t report it to the UK police because she had *no* confidence that they would take her complaint seriously or do anything at all about it).

We wouldn’t import thousands of people whom we *knew* were active members of the Mafia subscribing to the Omertà code. Supposing that the Thuggees were still extant, we wouldn’t import hundreds of thousands of proudly self-declared stranglers-in-the-night and allow them to set up temples and start sneaking up on people and murdering them. (At least I hope we wouldn’t…).

So why do we blithely import thousands and thousands of card-carrying and proudly-self-identified Muslims, most of whom may be reliably assumed to be quite ready and willing to – at best – ostracise and abuse and – at worst – KILL even a close family member who dares to leave their cult?

Qaradawi also once famously said: “If they had gotten rid of the apostasy punishment, Islam wouldn’t exist today.”

So even prominent Muslims recognize that Islam is so ridiculously offensive, harmful, horrifying and inhuman that the only thing stopping most muslims from simply abandoning the faith for something measurably better is the fear of more devout Muslims killing them for it.

And Muslims believe that if a polity–such as in the civilized West–is not enforcing the death penalty for converting out of Islam, then it is incumbent on some members of the Ummah to murder to enforce Islamic law.

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