so my friend has just got 522 breath, until then he had LotC 489 + SPA 522, but he says he doesn't really like the haste proc. Right now he's rolling 522 breath + 522 SPA, but he considers rechanging LotC for SPA. Would that be a very big dps decrease to do so (so he goes Breath 522 + LotC 489 instead of Breath 522 + SPA 522)?

Breath & Wush is clear winners, SPA trinket is bad beacuse we rather want int procs than haste and the Cha-yes is just to low item level to compete even with crit on it.

Ballong got this one right. Breath and WuShoo for sure. If you suck royally at lining up your stacking proc with WuShoo, swap it out for the RF Cha-Ye, but if you are okay with a stacking buff, use WuShoo. Once you get 522 (530) Cha, I would use that as it eases things up a bit and makes armor swapping more reliable.

Recently got Heroic Light of the Cosmos (on a weird "let's do MSV H and attempt that title" night after Lei Shen) after 9x Megaera kills, x5 Dark Animus kills with everything but trinket slots acquired, and I have 530 (522) Wushoos. Fairly sure a fully upgraded H LotC surpasses the SPA trinket until at the very least Cha-Ye's or Breath 522s for Fire, right? Reforging without upgrading H LotC yet gives me a small bump up on Crit, as well.

Upon the bed and almost dead
She looked down on me
From the tapestry threads her hand did reach
My spirit now set free...

LotC has a very nice uptime with around 45% (~1750 int and 1312 haste) and its cooldown matches perfectly with combustion (assuming you´re playing fire). 522 cha-ye will not match with your combustion (execpt for your opening burst), but give you more intellect (~1850 @ 25% uptime). You can expect everything from 15 up to 35% uptime. Another advantage of LotC is the longer duration (twice as long as Cha-Ye´s), which gives you a bigger timeframe for combustion.

I got Breath of the Hydra (522) recently, so I upgraded it and ran the last segment of LFR with it on Wednesday. I needed to do the same segment again to get Lei Shen's heart for the cloak quest and I decided to use the Shado-Pan Assault trinket on the second run. No other gear changes were made and as far as I can remember, I had the same buffs. The SPA trinket won by a huge margin. Napkin theorycrafting would indicate that the trinkets are about equal for me. I have both logs on World of Logs, so if anyone is curious and wants to try to figure out why the second run was so much higher DPS (no wipes on either run), feel free to try:

Maybe it's just that I played better the second time around or something to do with the rest of the raid. The overall DPS profiles for both logs look very similar.

Things get a bit crazy haste-wise with the SPA trinket stacked with everything else, which is why I was thinking Breath of the Hydra at the same item level might have been a good idea. I play Frost, use Nether Tempest and don't glyph IV. The trinket choice comes down to static intellect+haste proc vs. static haste + intellect proc. SPA also has an ICD, so it's more of a "clockwork" trinket than Breath.

Twin Consorts is probably the best benchmark encounter there. The higher DPS kill was about 25 seconds shorter, but had lower uptime on Tempus Repit etc.

I'm not gonna look at your logs quite frankly and just gonna go out and call that breath is better by a farm margin. Any DPS difference that you noticed were your own improvements or failures. Also what is your second trinket?

I dont agree with Pete on Cha'Ye, ive upgraded it to 530 and it has an insane uptime, if i were u id stick with cha and wush. LotC might have good uptime but its clearly lesss intel.

Dont understand, you disagree with the fact, that LotC ICD perfectly matches with combustion or that Cha-Yes gives you more intellect? Or that LotC has double duration of cha-yes? Or with the fact that the uptime range is somewhere between 15 and 35%?

I don´t say this or that trinket is better, I just share facts (advantages and disadvantages)

I got Breath of the Hydra (522) recently, so I upgraded it and ran the last segment of LFR with it on Wednesday. I needed to do the same segment again to get Lei Shen's heart for the cloak quest and I decided to use the Shado-Pan Assault trinket on the second run. No other gear changes were made and as far as I can remember, I had the same buffs. The SPA trinket won by a huge margin. Napkin theorycrafting would indicate that the trinkets are about equal for me. I have both logs on World of Logs, so if anyone is curious and wants to try to figure out why the second run was so much higher DPS (no wipes on either run), feel free to try:

Maybe it's just that I played better the second time around or something to do with the rest of the raid. The overall DPS profiles for both logs look very similar.

Things get a bit crazy haste-wise with the SPA trinket stacked with everything else, which is why I was thinking Breath of the Hydra at the same item level might have been a good idea. I play Frost, use Nether Tempest and don't glyph IV. The trinket choice comes down to static intellect+haste proc vs. static haste + intellect proc. SPA also has an ICD, so it's more of a "clockwork" trinket than Breath.

Twin Consorts is probably the best benchmark encounter there. The higher DPS kill was about 25 seconds shorter, but had lower uptime on Tempus Repit etc.

Im already @ 90% haste only when the meta procs, so having another 9K haste from spa on top of that is a no-no.
Also, RPPM trinket have a ridiculous uptime (45%+) most of the time.
SPA feels weird, BoH wins big time.

From my personal expirience I'd say for Fire spec Cha'Ye and Breath of the Hydra are the clear winners. Wush seems to have bad uptime, I dunno why, haven't tried UVLS so far, but I don't believe it's any viable for us, as it is for Locks and their doom.

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Originally Posted by zomgDPS

I want to feel the zomg in my dpspants when I throw pyros at someones face. How do you keep that feeling of 'zomg' in your pants while still nerfing throughput?

I'm only getting about 22% uptime on Breath on average. Sometimes less than 20%, sometimes up to 25%. Every RPPM isn't the same.

If you look at Twins, I had a 35.5% uptime on Wushoolay's there on the high DPS pull and only 11.1% on the bad one...I guess that explains the difference in DPS. Funny that I didn't notice before. Just extremely poor RNG then on an important trinket.

Wushoolay's uptimes were 32% last night on Megaera (25N), 29.2% on Council, 26.7% on Ji-kun. My impression is that Wushoolay's is usually anywhere between 25% and 35% uptime for me. Breath of the Hydra seems much lower.

Icy Veins rates SPA 522 as better than BoTH 522 for frost. My spreadsheet rates them about equal, but that's ignoring haste-capping. Does anyone know if it's better to have a short high haste proc or passive haste with the same average for proccing RPPM effects? I think the legendary meta could have a chaining effect where getting it to proc once gives you a higher chance to get another proc (because the haste should increase its proc chance)? My theory of why SPA was performing better was that the high haste you get from it will keep the meta gem performing better, which will then make Wushoolay's work better.

Don´t know where you guys get your uptimes from, but from this example:
Tiga got an average of 21.7% boh and 18.3% Wuhsoolay in 3 fights

i was wondering about the 45%+ too...
with ilvl 530 BotH & Wusho i usually get around 22% uptime... it seems that when one procs really good, the other one procs less...
highest uptime i've seen in last 10 fights is 33% on Wusho.
I only take in account boss kills... clearly uptime is much more if you consider early wipes with less than 1 minute combat time

i was wondering about the 45%+ too...
with ilvl 530 BotH & Wusho i usually get around 22% uptime... it seems that when one procs really good, the other one procs less...
highest uptime i've seen in last 10 fights is 33% on Wusho.
I only take in account boss kills... clearly uptime is much more if you consider early wipes with less than 1 minute combat time