Does anyone mind my asking what is so great about those forms? I mean, I'm just curious really. I checked them out and couldn't find ONE good thing about them relevant to fighting (looks like a dance routine performed by people who can't dance).

That being the case, I'm just curious to see what everyone finds so SPECIAL and interesting about them. I am sincerely interested in hearing what you have to say about them. What about watching them do you like? What is it about performing them that you like (if you do in fact do these forms).

Quote:Does anyone mind my asking what is so great about those forms? I mean, I'm just curious really. I checked them out and couldn't find ONE good thing about them relevant to fighting (looks like a dance routine performed by people who can't dance).

That being the case, I'm just curious to see what everyone finds so SPECIAL and interesting about them. I am sincerely interested in hearing what you have to say about them. What about watching them do you like? What is it about performing them that you like (if you do in fact do these forms).

I know we have some forms lovers here. Enlighten me.

-John

A lot of long fist forms flow pretty beutifully, and I like to see the nice stances and the differant techniques.

I am under the impression that most martial arts derived from shaolin, shaolin has a lot of long fist forums, so if you think the forms are just a dance, then do you also believe that the shaolin kung fu is just a dance? Or is it just the that you are not that interested in forms in general?

I think a lot of traditional karate forms look impractical, and like a stiff dance, but that doesn't make them innefective, right?

Anyway I have been doing wing chun for a while and am a huge fan of it, and the science behind it. Since the long fist is kind of the opposite of wing chun, I like to imagine the person doing the form is my opponet. And according to the legend of Wing Chun, her teacher was a shaoulin nun named Ng Mui.

and for the GOOD thing relevant to fighting, think of the deep stances creating powerfull legs. Or the fluidity and relaxation that these forms seem to have. I am sure it has it's place in the battlefield.

Quote:I am under the impression that most martial arts derived from shaolin, shaolin has a lot of long fist forums, so if you think the forms are just a dance, then do you also believe that the shaolin kung fu is just a dance? Or is it just the that you are not that interested in forms in general?

I'm not interested in forms, no. I think they're a waste of time for the most part.

Quote:

I think a lot of traditional karate forms look impractical, and like a stiff dance, but that doesn't make them innefective, right?

I do not believe that forms are ever "effective". Doing a FORM doesn't make a person a functional fighter. Many fighters become functional and capable without every doing the FIRST form. I've not done a form in EONS. If they aren't necessary at all, you can then easily see that their role in training is minimal and truthfully, unnecessary.

Quote:

and for the GOOD thing relevant to fighting, think of the deep stances creating powerfull legs. Or the fluidity and relaxation that these forms seem to have. I am sure it has it's place in the battlefield.

ANY form of fighting will develop certain physical attributes as it is. Otherwise I'm into weight training for most of that. I'm of the opinion that the more time spent doing forms, the less time you have for functional training.

I think that first we have to look at what the form is supposed to be training and the reasons behind training a form in the first place.From what I have experienced, forms help to train structure, fluidity of motion, principles and techniques, and most importantly focus.Forms are not necessary to acheive these things. There are other ways to train where you can acheive all of the above, forms are just a tool invented to cater towards a particular martial art for training them. Another reason form doing forms, they provide decent exercise and some people like doing them. Not everyone is into martial arts to become a fighter, some just do it because they like it.

And then there are some who enjoy a combination of the two. I do enjoy sparring, fighting, competing, and testing my skills against another trained fighter but I also enjoy learning all that an art has to offer, including forms.

For a time, I couldnt stand them because I couldnt understand the meaning and purpose behind them. It gives you another perspective to training to help sharpen the finer points.

If you want to be a good fighter alone, then you truly do not need them. If you want to learn the MA, then you do as it is part of the art. If I simply wanted to drive a car, I could get in and drive well by training with someone who was a great driver. But if I wanted to learn completely about them, that would include the maintenance side as well. Not everybody needs to be a mechanic but it gives you a deeper, fuller understanding of the car. I think forms do the same thing for the art. Just my opinion.

_________________________"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

I have found that movements in the forms I have been learning have made me think about moving in ways that I may otherwise not have considered. I'm not saying that I couldn't have learned these some other way, just that I was taught the movements and figured out some things that worked by myself and at my own speed.

A lot of the arguments for forms and kata seem to be unquantifiable in a sense, as the methods of movement within them can define the 'feel' of the art as separate from other, similar arts.

I agree that they're probably not necessary to develop fighting skills, but I enjoy doing them and they provide one of the few occasions where I feel I can move gracefully and physically express myself. If you ever see me dance, you'll know what I mean. Sometimes it's nice to have movement for movement's sake.

Other than that, it's a handy catalogue of techniques and combinations that I can refer to whenever I want, making it easier to remember than, say, learning thirty punching combos and practising them individually. Having said that, I do practise form sections on a punchpad and we experiment on each other in classes.

I think the really difficult thing to understand is how looking at forms from a system you don't study ties into their development scheme.

While far from a Chinese stylist, I have studied a bit from my Tai Chi instructor and would like to offer some observations.

In the Northern Chinese Systems (including the Ching Wu <and all variant spelling> Association) the forms are never studies alone. They are studied alongside two person sets, often of complex length and in turn that is used for their random free sparring practices.

In fact in many of the Northern Systems the forms are stepping stones, after you move past some of the forms you don't continue their practice, because all of their basics are contained in the more advanced forms and if you're practicing them correctly you don't need them (except of course for instructors).

With such system diversity that is only a generalization.

But the forms do build complex movement skills, and they have very long traditions behind them.

The YouTube phenomena allows us to look, but rarely shows enough to really see where the entire picture goes.

So we're a 1/2 step ahead of before, but if you think thats the full picture....

I view this forum as having many functions. Among other things, I like to think of it as a library or repository of information. Seek and ye shall find.

In that sense, even though I personally have little interest in forms, I have heard the term "longfist" for a long time. What is it? What does it look like? I really didn't know. So, I happened across some info and figured that maybe others would be curious as I was.

I think others have pointed out that there are other reasons (cultural, historic, etc.) besides strict functionality regarding forms. To each his or her own.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin