I wish that more Atheist would say what they really think.

Most people who call themselves 'believers' are closet atheist because they don't want to get in futile arguments or disowned by their own parents or lose friends over not believing such things.

They often don't feel like they are allowed to not believe and they keep quite about it because they feel like it isn't worth it. Those thoughts, I think are good because they don't want to cause trouble but at the same time because the religious have silenced people who would otherwise be free to say what they think, don't then religions run amok and ultimately lead to the perpetuation of this evil industry.

Yes, I believe religion is an evil industry and there isn't anything in it but self degradation, deceitfulness, human degradation, exploitation, adulation, excessiveness, selfishness...

And through observation, when there are people out there who call themselves Christians or whatever and do good things because they want to, even the, if they don't share the same dogma as the others, even they are outcast because they also don't believe it.

So why not speak up? Too afraid of being burned to death or stoned to death or harassed by people who don't agree with your skepticism?

The reality of that statement says a lot about religion. You either submit to it or you die.

"I don't think one is justified blaming religion for all of the ills of the Atheists."

Small 'a' please except when the word atheist is the first one in the sentence.

I didn't read Sandra's post as indicating that.

"Maybe Atheists people are by nature very timid or not couragious enough; after all one cannot sacrifice much for no purpose; hence the behaviour of the Atheists Skeptics."

[snort] Atheist are people who aren't religious. All else is dependent on the person.

I would indicate 'swimming upstream' requires more courage than 'drifting downstream.' YMMV, of course.

"The only thing they are capable of, in my opinion, is derision and ridicule; and they do it."

When there is derision and ridicule take a *very* good look at what they're responding to.

Is what is being responded to applied internally or externally. If the latter, what is the tone and to what degree is it exported.

Things exported into the real world or said to apply to those outside the religion are subject to the same tools believers hopefully utilize in all other areas of their life.

If the theist is being rude, crude, and a total fool-there's no reason to treat him/her with the courtesy s/he won't extend to others. My response is, generally, tailored to that.

If the theist indicates those outside their religion are subject to the tenets of their religion, then the theist is subject to the tenets of those they lack belief in.

I don't give a flying rancid burrito fart about a persons brand of, or stance with regard to religion. Said religion is their personal business. Sadly, many theists find others who lack theism to be threatening. Threats must be neutralized/eliminated.

There are myriad other areas of potential interaction. If ones religion comes before their humanity that can be, *can be*, a problem.

"So why not speak up? Why not to be couragious? Why not be reasonable? Why not to make sacrifices?"

I do speak up. Challenging superstition, when its being exported, is both courageous and reasonable. Being retired military is a sacrifice. Being medically retired is even more a sacrifice. [shrug] Both, and pocket change, will get me a cup of coffee.

"The Atheists Skeptics could do anything freely or they want that their job should be done by others."

"Most people who call themselves 'believers' are closet atheist because they don't want to get in futile arguments or disowned by their own parents or lose friends over not believing such things."

Believers are atheist with regard to all the other deity constructs they lack belief in. They get upset when their particular deity doesn't get special treatment.

A lot of people are as you describe. Others, imo, conduct hefty 'compartmentalization.' Outside of church this 'box' of traits and abilities come into play. Inside of church another 'box' comes into play.

What occurs is the usual group game of 'us and them.' Sadly, their religion comes before their humanity. That can be a problem.

"They often don't feel like they are allowed to not believe and they keep quite about it because they feel like it isn't worth it."

And are forced into going anyway and/or are threatened/beaten.

"Those thoughts, I think are good because they don't want to cause trouble but at the same time because the religious have silenced people who would otherwise be free to say what they think, don't then religions run amok and ultimately lead to the perpetuation of this evil industry."

Adults, often go, for the networking which can be quite profitable. It can also be the price of interacting with the group. Many factors come into play individually applicable.

"Yes, I believe religion is an evil industry and there isn't anything in it but self degradation, deceitfulness, human degradation, exploitation, adulation, excessiveness, selfishness..."

You forgot selfishness and terminal self-centredness. That said, it can also do good. There are those who are comforted by ritual. If such helps a person deal with life, then great.

"And through observation, when there are people out there who call themselves Christians or whatever and do good things because they want to, even the, if they don't share the same dogma as the others, even they are outcast because they also don't believe it."

"So why not speak up? Too afraid of being burned to death or stoned to death or harassed by people who don't agree with your skepticism?"

I do speak up, when needed. People here, elsewhere, and in real life are aware of it.

How I react depends on the situation. People know I lack belief. It rarely is a problem. If a person is threatened by my lack of belief that's their personal problem.

"The reality of that statement says a lot about religion. You either submit to it or you die."

Depends. There are myriad Christians who would love to slaughter people such as myself. There are other Christians who would not. There are many more who wouldn't give a rip what the killer Christians do-as long as they aren't the target.

I don't tell certain people because it would make their lives that much harder. My one gram is worried sick about my cousin because he is an atheist, she knows he is going to hell and there is no telling her otherwise either. I don't want her to think I'm in store for the same fate.

Indeed... God is love, but if you can't force yourself to believe in him and repent for your sins you will be tortured for all of eternity. Yet Christians still claim that God's love is greater than any human could ever imagine. I see the average human being as much more loving.

Love peace free will not ultimately destroy society. It is impossible for love peace free to fight against itself. What you are witnessing is the opposite of love peace free and is getting the results of it. Thank you. Go in peace. P.S. The atheist are just using wisdom in how to live on the earth with those who disagree with them.

What's that saying? I kept silent when they came for the jews, and I kept silent when they came for the gays. I kept silent when they went after the muslims, and when they came for the communists, socialists and fascists, I kept silent again.

I'm not on either side of the religionists vs atheists issue - I think those who quietly go on with their own lives believing what they will and treat others with compassion and goodness should not be bothered. It's the nutcases who feel they must convert or destroy or threaten all others who do not see things their way that need to be re-educated or something. I know they are hard to ignore! I don't know what to do about the fact that I see all this Christian propoganda everyday in the forums here and it just makes me want to stay away. I used to enjoy this place, but no more. I did not sign on here to participate in a Christian Bible Study group and I don't think their horrid comments about gays and other subjects are appropriate or welcome here - but what can I do? nothing. So I just stay away, more and more.

"I'm not on either side of the religionists vs atheists issue - I think those who quietly go on with their own lives believing what they will and treat others with compassion and goodness should not be bothered."

Exactly. Superstition is merely something someone else believes in and danged if they're not going to constantly flaunt their idiocies, false witness, hypocrisy, and ignorance in public.

It certainly isn't comforting to the Europeans to realize more and more the US is full of head cases who control US military power and have a nuclear arsenal.

It certainly isn't comforting for them to realize Americans are less and less educated and much more irrational. Further, many pride themselves in their vaunted ignorance and invoke 'Satan' towards anything not supporting whatever drivel they're currently spouting.

mega1posted"It's the nutcases who feel they must convert or destroy or threaten all others who do not see things their way that need to be re-educated or something. I know they are hard to ignore! I don't know what to do about the fact that I see all this Christian propoganda everyday in the forums here and it just makes me want to stay away. "

The tiresome Christian propaganda and the shoe horning the damned stuff into everything is why I don't get involved with things. I've no interest in supporting stone-age superstition financially or otherwise. I don't participate in Veteran's parades, events, causes, and the like. I don't join, for instance, the VFW because the entry form indicates belief in one form of superstition or another is required. And I'm not willing to lie about my status to participate.

mega1posted"I used to enjoy this place, but no more. I did not sign on here to participate in a Christian Bible Study group and I don't think their horrid comments about gays and other subjects are appropriate or welcome here - but what can I do? nothing. So I just stay away, more and more."

To be honest, I think there are alot of people who sense the wrongness and falsity of the various BIG 3 religions, even the one they themselves may to some extent be. But they've simply never taken the time -or maybe been able to take the time- to figure it all out for themselves.

So they don't get involved cause they know they don't know. But they have sense enough to know that neither does anyone else.

Their humility and common sense keeps them from 'speaking up' so very vocally. But they can still vote, and I sure hope they do.

I have to agree with you on this one Paarsurrey! I'm not saying it's all, but a few aren't very humble at all! Some are downright rude and enjoy it that way! Of course there are just as many rude people in the religious realm as well!

People could be good or bad in those who believe in a religion and those who do not believe in religion; but the case of Atheists Skeptics Agnostics is different. They have as a matter of policy adopted to deride and ridicule on directions of a famous biologist, as I understand

Paarsurrey, you are mistaken. You cannot just lump every atheist/agnostic/humanist into the same category as you place the very few with whom you are actually acquainted.

Or else then I suppose that it is fair to say all muslims are terrorists? Of course not.

We are -first of all- very specifically speaking about atheists who do not speak up! How can these silent atheists be deriding and ridiculing when they don't even generally openly admit their atheism?

Further, atheists/agnostics and skeptics hold nothing as a matter of policy, as I'm pretty sure has been discussed here many times before. And we don't act as a group, take directions from any leader, or from science or anything else.

A humble person can certainly do so. Rank idiocy is open to being laughed at. Such is the result of projecting superstition into the public arena.

There are many Xians who keep their faith as a precious private matter-as Jesus instructs. These folks I have a lot of respect for.

Consider a thought experiment. Visualize all the theists, their temples, publications-everything-as praising, asserting, following Santa Claus.

"I do this for the greater glory of Santa Claus! I pray to Santa Claus and study the holy book of Santa Claus. Santa Claus died for my sins, yadda yadda yadda."

What would your reaction be to physical adults projecting this crap and shoving it into every public crevice they could?"

Oh yeah, one can't forget the "Anti-Claus" and the charge that if you're not for "The Clause" you're against him and a follower of the "Anti-Claus" with the automatic declaration of being a second class citizen and charged with not being able to do anything of a positive nature.

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