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Really? A lot? Their very first scene together in this episode consisted of Tokiomi being overcome with anger and revolt at Risei's death, whereas Kirei, the man's own son, did not bat an eye and remained completely impassive when faced with the loss of his father.

Well it's not like Kotomine shows much emotion to begin with so Tokiomi might have assumed he was just in shock mC said. Only Gilgamesh suggested there might be more to it than that by specifically suggesting Kotomine wanted to kill his father.

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Moreover, in the very first episode, Tokiomi confessed that it was almost unsettling how easily Kirei accepted participating in the Holy Grail War, considering he was essentially being dragged into a conflict which had nothing to do with him. Maybe that should have tipped him off a little that his dear student might actually possess or eventually develop some personal interest in it.

Well Risei reassured him that it would've been due to his wife's death and since Risei is a friend of Tokiomi, he didn't really have any reason to doubt.

There was something I've always wondered... was it ever really planned for the story in the first place that the murderer of Rin's father end up being her mentor, or did Urobuchi suddenly decide to write that after the fact due to his sense of twisted irony?

There was something I've always wondered... was it ever really planned for the story in the first place that the murderer of Rin's father end up being her mentor, or did Urobuchi suddenly decide to write that after the fact due to his sense of twisted irony?

It was something that was revealed in the UBW route in the VN. Even the small detail that Kotomine killed him with the Azoth dagger was there already. How it was revealed is technically a spoiler so it's best to ask in the Q&A if you want to know.

It was something that was revealed in the UBW route in the VN. Even the small detail that Kotomine killed him with the Azoth dagger was there already. How it was revealed is technically a spoiler so it's best to ask in the Q&A if you want to know.

I don't know if this is a spoiler or not, and I'm leaving it in the hands of the mod to decide. but I'm curious:

Spoiler for in case:

So, did Tokiomi manage to plant the Tohsaka magic crest on to Rin? When is that?

It is kind of a spoiler. You'll find out later.

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Originally Posted by Aqua Knight

Why save Kariya only then to kill Tokiomi?

Yeah, and episode felt really rushed.

Because seeing Kariya suffer brings Kirei enjoyment. Letting him die such a quick death would have been no fun. He had to kill Tokiomi for practical reasons: he wanted to stay in Fuyuki and he needed a servant. Tokiomi was the most boring man out of all the Masters and he happened to have the strongest servant, it's only logical from his point of view to kill him first. Betraying somebody who trusted him completely must have been very fun for him as well. As an added bonus, he even gets to deny Kariya his revenge, which will only hurt him more in the mental state he's in.

Me three, the character development here is like off the chaaaarts. If you try to exclude knowledge of Kirei for everything but Fate Zero, he was actually a fairly boring character side character displayed up until a few episodes ago. And now it completely shifts everything to him.

Me three, the character development here is like off the chaaaarts. If you try to exclude knowledge of Kirei for everything but Fate Zero, he was actually a fairly boring character side character displayed up until a few episodes ago. And now it completely shifts everything to him.

Well, that's what the entire series has been coming down to. There was a good fan art with the two characters squaring off but I can't find it and with the horrible amount of yaoi fan art, I'm giving up. -_-

Mm, the 'transformation has begun' in regards to Kotomine... we see the beginnings of the personality traits he exhibited in Fate/stay Night. Interesting that it was Gilgamesh who seemed to nudge him into this direction.

Off topic but does this show seem a little slow to any one else? I was a huge fan of the first series but this one doesn't seem as good to me. The only reason I am watching it is because they do a good job of making me wonder what will happen next.

The animation and fight scenes are definitely better though, even though there seem to be significantly less.

It's kind of sad that my two favorite characters in this series have virtually no lines (Kariya and BAH-ZAH-KA).

Things slowed down a bit this week so obviously we got a lot of dialogue heavy episodes that are tough on non-VN players like myself. Even without playing the games or reading the novels though I pretty much saw Kotomine's betrayal coming for a couple episodes now, he was more or less just looking for the best time to execute it. Now he can try and have his fated duel with Kiritsgu with only a couple other possible sources of interference. Love the irony of how he's basically searching for himself since they are, at least on the surface, so much the same person it's not even funny.

Anyway kind of the definition of a transitional episode other than the important bit at the end there and hopefully things heat up again next week. This seasons been pretty low on the Rider and Berserker's barely been in the show far so I figure they'll play a big part in the next month or so.

For me F/Z's pace is about right. There is room to cut some contents out (Rin's adventure should be cut to half an episode really), but doing so may come with a cost of not developing the characters as described in the novel. Let's not forget that the main purpose of F/Z is to tell the story of Kiritsugu, Kotomine, and to a lesser extent, Gilgamesh and Saber. If the anime does not spend the time to let them interact, it would defeat the purpose of F/Z.

Episode 17: Gilgamesh and Kotomine are bored (what else is new?) and Toikomi's continued failure to entertain them leads to the logical outcome... they kill him! And then you know they're totally going to have a wild night out drinking or whatever.

Kotomine's descent into darkness was really well done. Though I sorta lol'd at Kotomine stabbing Toikomi. Gil was right... he did die like a dumbass. And poor Rin. 8/10

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Tokiomi is admittedly not very quick on the uptake, but at the same time, he had very little reason to suspect that Kirei would do this to him.

In Tokiomi's eyes, Kirei was simply flawlessly professional, and totally serious (like Tokiomi himself tends to be). Though rare, there are people like that in the world, who pride themselves on tight emotional control at all times. They're very "buttoned down", so to speak, and perpetually businesslike.

It's certainly fair to say that Tokiomi is a bit naive, but I don't think he was downright stupid. However, in a Holy Grail war with this caliber of competition, naivety alone will get you killed.

While it's good to see the competition narrow down a bit with this episode and the last, it has left me wondering about what could have been. Tokiomi vs. Kayneth could have been interesting to watch, and it's obviously never going to happen now. But I guess this sort of thing is hard to avoid in a seven-way War like this one.

I was impressed with just how very neat and tidy this episode was - How seamlessly it sets up lots of things in Fate/Stay Night, particularly Rin's situation.