Also possible to have a marshall or someone who knows the rules follow them around and help them out. Of course, I understand twig-snapping happens at higher levels, too.

ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē~Annika SŲrenstam

This is the ONLY statement that you have made in this entire thread that I agree with!

You sit there in your high tower and talk about how lower rated players should all 'play up'. I got one thing to say to you: BITE ME!

If you are so concerned with getting people to move up you are looking at the WRONG end of the AM scale my friend. And what keeps players who always have a good chance to win AM1 or AM2 from moving up? The fact that massive amounts of players compete in those fields. That jacks the payouts for winning AM1 or AM2 WAY higher than they would have a realistic of making in the higher divisions. Now if you have all 4 AM divisions you have split up the giant fields and the payouts will be smaller. That makes the reward for playing a higher division ACTUALLY HIGHER! Imagine that?!?

If everybody played where their rating dictated then the divisions would be smaller and so would the payouts. There is another way to encourage those that want payout to move up: make the payouts MUCH more shallow. MA1 pays out to top 30%; MA2 pays out to top 45%; MA3 pays out top 60%; MA4 plays for trophies with the rest of the entry fees used for players packs. Smaller divisions with shallower payouts and those that are in it for payout will move up faster and those preying on the lesser players will not see the easy pickings that encourage sandbagging.

There is no reason for there to be a 60 player AM1 division when there are not 60 Am players rated above 935! But what keeps a 975 rated player playing AM? The chance to fleece the other 59 players out of their entry fees.

But a reason that most PDGA tourneys don't offer AM4 IS speed of play. And when tourneys fill before they start there is no reason to offer AM4 when you can fill it with higher paying entrants.

Besides, you should get your AM4 training at smaller events, get the basic rules under your belt and then jump into PDGA competition in MA3. Play in that division until your rating rises and moves you into MA2. Play in that division until your rating rises and moves you into MA1. By the time that you are playing in MA1 you should start to decide if playing Pro is something that you want to try. This works for the majority of the people who play DG.

Now if you are talking about freaks of nature like Ron The Whip who improve MUCH faster than the average, skipping divisions and moving up to improve your play is a valid argument. But just because it works for RTW doesn't make it the standard that all players should follow.

NEW FORUM RULE: If you are playing Pro or your rating is above 935 you get NO SAY about the subject of AM3/AM4.

Hath this whole world been mired in madness?
Remain ye men of faculty complete,
Of full arithmetic and prudence fair,
Attending to our noble bond and contract?
Or does here stand the last remaining man
To give a fig for rules and order yet,
No noble savage, but a stave unbroken
Who loves the law and bids it no misdeed.
Iíll not be bent to lawlessness. Mark it nought, if we be men of honour.

Comment

NEW FORUM RULE: If you are playing Pro or your rating is above 935 you get NO SAY about the subject of AM3/AM4.

Does this include Team Golf ratings? Or just PDGA ratings? Either way, I think I am still cool.

I think people should play where they are comfortable, although I do think there should be a ratings cut off for playing in Am divisions vs. Open divisions. (Or a different equally brilliant solution to prevent sandbagging).

Comment

This is the ONLY statement that you have made in this entire thread that I agree with!

You sit there in your high tower and talk about how lower rated players should all 'play up'. I got one thing to say to you: BITE ME!

If you are so concerned with getting people to move up you are looking at the WRONG end of the AM scale my friend. And what keeps players who always have a good chance to win AM1 or AM2 from moving up? The fact that massive amounts of players compete in those fields. That jacks the payouts for winning AM1 or AM2 WAY higher than they would have a realistic of making in the higher divisions. Now if you have all 4 AM divisions you have split up the giant fields and the payouts will be smaller. That makes the reward for playing a higher division ACTUALLY HIGHER! Imagine that?!?

If everybody played where their rating dictated then the divisions would be smaller and so would the payouts. There is another way to encourage those that want payout to move up: make the payouts MUCH more shallow. MA1 pays out to top 30%; MA2 pays out to top 45%; MA3 pays out top 60%; MA4 plays for trophies with the rest of the entry fees used for players packs. Smaller divisions with shallower payouts and those that are in it for payout will move up faster and those preying on the lesser players will not see the easy pickings that encourage sandbagging.

There is no reason for there to be a 60 player AM1 division when there are not 60 Am players rated above 935! But what keeps a 975 rated player playing AM? The chance to fleece the other 59 players out of their entry fees.

But a reason that most PDGA tourneys don't offer AM4 IS speed of play. And when tourneys fill before they start there is no reason to offer AM4 when you can fill it with higher paying entrants.

Besides, you should get your AM4 training at smaller events, get the basic rules under your belt and then jump into PDGA competition in MA3. Play in that division until your rating rises and moves you into MA2. Play in that division until your rating rises and moves you into MA1. By the time that you are playing in MA1 you should start to decide if playing Pro is something that you want to try. This works for the majority of the people who play DG.

Now if you are talking about freaks of nature like Ron The Whip who improve MUCH faster than the average, skipping divisions and moving up to improve your play is a valid argument. But just because it works for RTW doesn't make it the standard that all players should follow.

NEW FORUM RULE: If you are playing Pro or your rating is above 935 you get NO SAY about the subject of AM3/AM4.

Wow. Nicely said. I agree with every word.

Comment

In this area, I think the sport's governing body should place more focus on how to make tournament players better - not find ways that they do not have to improve because they can continue to compete at a very low level.

That is all.

ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē~Annika SŲrenstam

Comment

In this area, I think the sport's governing body should place more focus on how to make tournament players better - not find ways that they do not have to improve because they can continue to compete at a very low level.

That is all.

Tournament players who want to get better will get better with practice and by playing lots of DG. Players who work full time and have a family and are lucky to get out once a week deserve a division to play in too. When they can make time to play a PDGA tourney they shouldn't be forced to play in a division that gives them no chance to win. It's not all about the top players and you're dreaming if you think the sport will ever equal stick and ball golf.

This is a sport that can be played by people of all ages and abilities. The rating system is what we have, let's let it do the job it is supposed to do. I really think that smaller AM pools will get people who want payout to move up faster than belittling them on a forum.

Hath this whole world been mired in madness?
Remain ye men of faculty complete,
Of full arithmetic and prudence fair,
Attending to our noble bond and contract?
Or does here stand the last remaining man
To give a fig for rules and order yet,
No noble savage, but a stave unbroken
Who loves the law and bids it no misdeed.
Iíll not be bent to lawlessness. Mark it nought, if we be men of honour.

Comment

We'll have to agree to disagree on this subject because it is clear that we do.

ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē~Annika SŲrenstam

Comment

Ok, I have a question. I have not joined the PDGA for a couple of reasons (none which need to be discussed in this thread, though), so I am unclear on this issue... Can a PDGA sanctioned tournament be ran that has only AM3 and AM4 divisions (if I am understanding correctly that these are the two lowest divisions)? THAT may be something that could help to grow the competitive side of the sport. Just my $.02, but please, let me know...

Comment

Ok, I have a question. I have not joined the PDGA for a couple of reasons (none which need to be discussed in this thread, though), so I am unclear on this issue... Can a PDGA sanctioned tournament be ran that has only AM3 and AM4 divisions (if I am understanding correctly that these are the two lowest divisions)? THAT may be something that could help to grow the competitive side of the sport. Just my $.02, but please, let me know...

Yes, a Tournament Director CAN limit the divisions that are offered.
As long as it is "posted" ahead of time........

There are regions that hold seperate events...Pro/Advanced and Intermediate & below.

Comment

Thank you, sir. It would just seem that this would be a better way to grow the sport. Keep the payout for the divisions, in the divisions. The ripoff (or such as it seems to me) of taking a large portion of the entry fee and giving it to higher divisions has kept me out of everything PDGA associated...

Please don't take this as a slam on the PDGA, this is just my view for right now. And, to head off a typical reply; yes, I am seriously considering volunteering my time to do such an event.... And I also figure that I would need to become a PDGA member to do such a thing, correct?

Comment

Thank you, sir. It would just seem that this would be a better way to grow the sport. Keep the payout for the divisions, in the divisions. The ripoff (or such as it seems to me) of taking a large portion of the entry fee and giving it to higher divisions has kept me out of everything PDGA associated...

Please don't take this as a slam on the PDGA, this is just my view for right now. And, to head off a typical reply; yes, I am seriously considering volunteering my time to do such an event.... And I also figure that I would need to become a PDGA member to do such a thing, correct?

Hey Zippy,

I know you didn't want to get into a big ordeal over this subject, but I did want to clarify one thing for you. The situation with the payouts you are concerned with really does not happen as often as you might think, and certainly not in this area. Neither the Oregon Series or the Stumptown Series take money from one division and give it to another. The entry fees from each division get put into a pool of prize money for that division. The cost of the players pack and any misc fees (like park usage, end of year championships etc) get subtracted from that amount. The remainder gets divided up by the people who cash.

I know at least one person who keeps telling people this garbage (in spite of the fact that it is not true), but I'm really not here to attack anyone. I just wish people would stop trying to drive a wedge into our community with disinformation.

Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up, because it really bugs me.

See you at a course somewhere!

Jeff

"You won't like me when I am angry, because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources". - The Credible Hulk

Comment

I know you didn't want to get into a big ordeal over this subject, but I did want to clarify one thing for you. The situation with the payouts you are concerned with really does not happen as often as you might think, and certainly not in this area. Neither the Oregon Series or the Stumptown Series take money from one division and give it to another. The entry fees from each division get put into a pool of prize money for that division. The cost of the players pack and any misc fees (like park usage, end of year championships etc) get subtracted from that amount. The remainder gets divided up by the people who cash.

I know at least one person who keeps telling people this garbage (in spite of the fact that it is not true), but I'm really not here to attack anyone. I just wish people would stop trying to drive a wedge into our community with disinformation.

Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up, because it really bugs me.

See you at a course somewhere!

Jeff

Jeff is absolutely correct on this. The Oregon Series DOES NOT ALLOW money to be transfered between divisions.
The ONLY difference may be the ADDED money that the TD puts into each division. That is solely up to the TD. I also have heard people complain that money is taken from lower divisions to "pad" the higher ones. That is NOT the case with Oregon Series events.

To clarify further...
YES, to run a PDGA event you MUST be a PDGA member AND a PDGA Official (which is just a matter of taking and passing the officials test)

Comment

To clarify further...
YES, to run a PDGA event you MUST be a PDGA member AND a PDGA Official (which is just a matter of taking and passing the officials test)

And one of the benefits to a Stumptown membership is $5 off your PDGA membership and FREE officials tests. That's $15 right there from your $10 Stumptown membership. And in case you're in a hurry and want to get going on that MA3/MA4 tourney, a Stumptown membership purchased now is good through the end of 2009 and we have the tests in-house right now for you to take.

Hath this whole world been mired in madness?
Remain ye men of faculty complete,
Of full arithmetic and prudence fair,
Attending to our noble bond and contract?
Or does here stand the last remaining man
To give a fig for rules and order yet,
No noble savage, but a stave unbroken
Who loves the law and bids it no misdeed.
Iíll not be bent to lawlessness. Mark it nought, if we be men of honour.

Comment

Thanks, Magilla and Bullseye. I wasn't trying to insinuate that any one tournament or series (especially local ones) were engaging in this practice. It may have been poorly worded on my part, sorry. It just seems that, in some instances, the lower divisions get the shaft. That's all. But this is also why I wanted to make it part of the discussion. As I have stated, I am on the outside (of the PDGA, and really, a lot of the tournament scene, in general) looking in, and that was and is, merely my perception.

Please note, this is not a veiled attempt on my part to slam anybody, or anything. So if I worded something to sound aggressive, it is/was not intended as such.

And, Jordan, thank you for letting me know about the Stumptown tie-in with the PDGA. I have been contemplating finally breaking down and getting my PDGA membership, so I will take this into account. And, I would most likely join up with Stumptown as well. Seems that the anti-Washington sentiments that were expressed in the initial meeting appear to have faded - cause that was pretty much what had been keeping me from rejoining.

Comment

It just seems that, in some instances, the lower divisions get the shaft. That's all. But this is also why I wanted to make it part of the discussion. As I have stated, I am on the outside (of the PDGA, and really, a lot of the tournament scene, in general) looking in, and that was and is, merely my perception.

Something that seems to be "missed" by some players are the fees involved, which can make it seem that lower divisions are getting the shaft.

Heres an example....using the Oregon Series as a model

Rec Division (Am3) has 5 players paying $40 each to play in a B Tier event.

This make $200 total entrys. Of that $5 goes to the Series and $3 goes to the PDGA.
200 - 40 = $160 left
Now you have to pay for your players Package, IF at cost a T-Shirt and Disc will be about $18, IF retail about $35. Lets use "at cost".
$160 - 90 = $70 left.
Now you have to pay for you trophys...
Lets say that you are using the REAL NICE Suhocki Basket Trophies at $30 ea and only give out 2 of the 5 places
$70 - 60 = $10
NOW you have to take out YOUR share of the Insurance & Sanctioning ($125 total for a B-Teir) AND any other fees associated with the event.
(Park Fees, Printing costs for scorecards, etc)
Its usually about this point that the TD is disgusted with the lack of payout and then PUTS MORE added cash perperson into this group than ANY OTHER division just so there can be ANY payout at all.

The PDGA desires that TD's focus more on Players Packages and NOT on payout for the lower divisions. Notice that this year & last, the Memorial has NO PAYOUT for ALL AMATEUR divisions. They focus on giving a Player Pack that is worth more than DOUBLE the entry fee (thanks to sponsors) and has Trophies only for the top finishers.