Based on MJ blaming his disastrous treatment of WarHammer customers on the distributors, based on MJ reneging on many promises concerning DAoC and then absolving himself of any responsibility, based on TOA (TOA was supposedly MJs baby), based on how the WarHammer staff ballooned to 400 and still could not launch on time, based on MJ being the person responsible for the OP gear and OP characters that came with each expansion pack (OP stuff that upset game balance while pandering to the players dark-side in an attempt to sell expansions at the expense of game balance), etc. . . .

Based on watching MJ over the years, and how he treats the customer, I do not hold much hope for any MMO that MJ is involved in. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Edit:
This is probably MJs ego needing to respond to the Zenimaxannouncement concerning their 3 faction MMO (Zenimax=Matt Firor)

Whatever happened to that "Imperium" or whatever the hell they called it back in the day? They put all them little flyers in Your Shrouded Isle box and then said they scrapped it when ToA came out, the basically beginning of the end for DAoC. Was supposed to be some 3 realm game too.

Whatever happened to that "Imperium" or whatever the hell they called it back in the day? They put all them little flyers in Your Shrouded Isle box and then said they scrapped it when ToA came out, the basically beginning of the end for DAoC. Was supposed to be some 3 realm game too.

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Imperator (or i like to call it Limperator). It was supposed to be Romans in space. Evidently it did not seem to be coalescing very well and got scrapped when Mythic was able to get the go ahead for doing WarHammer. WarHammer had a following and Mythic probably felt that WarHammer would have a better chance of doing well.

Not that SI was a bad expansion or that SI overly harmed the game. SI was a great expansion. The thing was, many players were expecting the game to be polished, bugs to be fixed, the UI to be upgraded, mail to be introduced, player controlled mounts to be brought to the game, etc. . . .and instead the players got a buggy expansion with OP classes that upset balance.

The subscription numbers leveled out about 9-12 months after launch. This is a very significant event because noobs coming to the game did not level out, but the subscription graph did level out. As the numbers of noobs coming to the game (about 20k per month) probably remained the same, the graph leveled because the numbers of existing players that were departing equaled the numbers arriving.

This means that a game that had more than 2 years of content (probably more than 3 years of content) started bleeding players, on average, after the player was in the game for less than a year.

Rather than SI, the game needed repairs, polish, mail, UI upgrades, player controlled horses, flying mounts, an account vault (all characters on the account could access), etc. . . .

The huge exodus did not begin until after TOA, when WoW launched, but the real indicator that there was a problem is when the subscription graph leveled out at around the 12th month mark.

Well, my opinion of why the game started to die used to get shouted down by the masses for years.

1. The need for a bot to compete.
We all know all the arguments for and against, its been beat to death.

2. How hard leveling was back in the day.
My first toon to 50 (Spysong-Infiltrator) took 60 days played to cap out. But that was with no bot & mostly solo the whole way on account nobody wanted to group a stealther back then. Kiddies don't have that kind've patience to grind it out that long to be effective in RvR.

Well, my opinion of why the game started to die used to get shouted down by the masses for years.

1. The need for a bot to compete.
We all know all the arguments for and against, its been beat to death.

2. How hard leveling was back in the day.
My first toon to 50 (Spysong-Infiltrator) took 60 days played to cap out. But that was with no bot & mostly solo the whole way on account nobody wanted to group a stealther back then. Kiddies don't have that kind've patience to grind it out that long to be effective in RvR.

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I completely agree. I think that many other things contributed to the demise of the game but those two that you list are certainly things that caused grave harm to the game.

Mythic has done their typical over compensation by changing the leveling speed so that a player can now go from 1 to 50 in less than a day /played (no PLing). The sweet spot seems to be about 15 days /played. (no, not the spot that people want, which is easy mode, but the spot that is most beneficial for character development and most beneficial for game growth)

It was not just that leveling was slow, but leveling was far too slow especially in the mid to late 40s, it was also the down time. I recall testing on my archer once, way back, and for every 60 seconds in battle I spent more than 2 min needing to sit regenerating. When players log in to play they do not want to spend two thirds of their time just sitting waiting. When players log in they want to kill things.

Whatever happened to that "Imperium" or whatever the hell they called it back in the day? They put all them little flyers in Your Shrouded Isle box and then said they scrapped it when ToA came out, the basically beginning of the end for DAoC. Was supposed to be some 3 realm game too.

Click to expand...

Imperator (or i like to call it Limperator). It was supposed to be Romans in space. Evidently it did not seem to be coalescing very well and got scrapped when Mythic was able to get the go ahead for doing WarHammer. WarHammer had a following and Mythic probably felt that WarHammer would have a better chance of doing well.

Not that SI was a bad expansion or that SI overly harmed the game. SI was a great expansion. The thing was, many players were expecting the game to be polished, bugs to be fixed, the UI to be upgraded, mail to be introduced, player controlled mounts to be brought to the game, etc. . . .and instead the players got a buggy expansion with OP classes that upset balance.

The subscription numbers leveled out about 9-12 months after launch. This is a very significant event because noobs coming to the game did not level out, but the subscription graph did level out. As the numbers of noobs coming to the game (about 20k per month) probably remained the same, the graph leveled because the numbers of existing players that were departing equaled the numbers arriving.

This means that a game that had more than 2 years of content (probably more than 3 years of content) started bleeding players, on average, after the player was in the game for less than a year.

Rather than SI, the game needed repairs, polish, mail, UI upgrades, player controlled horses, flying mounts, an account vault (all characters on the account could access), etc. . . .

The huge exodus did not begin until after TOA, when WoW launched, but the real indicator that there was a problem is when the subscription graph leveled out at around the 12th month mark.

Click to expand...

SI classes in general weren't particularly overpowered but could be in certain circumstances, IMHO though this was the greatest strength of the game that seemed frustratingly lost on so many, the game wasn't red team vs. blue team vs. green team, they varied and yeah sometimes under the right circumstance some realms and classes could be dominant but there always counters and it's what made the game interesting. It's one reason why I played DAoC for years and GW2 for about a month.

Well, my opinion of why the game started to die used to get shouted down by the masses for years.

1. The need for a bot to compete.
We all know all the arguments for and against, its been beat to death.

2. How hard leveling was back in the day.
My first toon to 50 (Spysong-Infiltrator) took 60 days played to cap out. But that was with no bot & mostly solo the whole way on account nobody wanted to group a stealther back then. Kiddies don't have that kind've patience to grind it out that long to be effective in RvR.

Click to expand...

I took 25 days on my Zerker and thought that was nuts... I swore never again, 10 lvl 50's later....

Thing is, like many, the first thing that I would note that really made DAoC a great game was the sense of community, I just don't see it in other modern MMO's where everyone solo's impatiently to cap in 2 days before starting an alt and no one knows anyone or bothers with chat. In those 25 days I got to know my realm mates, I grouped with many of them at some point, I gossiped on a pad waiting to port, I knew on some level the people bickering in chat over dragon loot, knowing people made the game matter.

I don't see the attention deficit types adding much to these games, more to the opposite I think they kill them and the games are better off without them.

Based on MJ blaming his disastrous treatment of WarHammer customers on the distributors, based on MJ reneging on many promises concerning DAoC and then absolving himself of any responsibility, based on TOA (TOA was supposedly MJs baby), based on how the WarHammer staff ballooned to 400 and still could not launch on time, based on MJ being the person responsible for the OP gear and OP characters that came with each expansion pack (OP stuff that upset game balance while pandering to the players dark-side in an attempt to sell expansions at the expense of game balance), etc. . . .

Based on watching MJ over the years, and how he treats the customer, I do not hold much hope for any MMO that MJ is involved in. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Edit:
This is probably MJs ego needing to respond to the Zenimaxannouncement concerning their 3 faction MMO (Zenimax=Matt Firor)

Click to expand...

Worth remembering though he played a large part in creating DAoC in the first place, that of itself is worth something in my book irregardless of some of the design choices he made later. IMHO if he is guilty of anything it was listening to and implementing what players "thought" they wanted and he is far from the only recent MMO dev to make this mistake.

I actually took some encouragement from some of his responses in that thread, people can learn from their mistakes and be better for it.

SI classes in general weren't particularly overpowered but could be in certain circumstances, . . . .

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There were many problems with the SI classes when the expansion launched. While I will not list everything, I do recall things like the necro pet being able to chase the enemy all the way across a zone, necros sitting in keeps and sending pets out to kill without putting the actual character at any risk, etc. . . Each of the SI classes had problems at launch, problems that Mythic did not address until long after Mythic seemed to feel that Mythic had milked enough out of expansion sales.

Based on MJ blaming his disastrous treatment of WarHammer customers on the distributors, based on MJ reneging on many promises concerning DAoC and then absolving himself of any responsibility, based on TOA (TOA was supposedly MJs baby), based on how the WarHammer staff ballooned to 400 and still could not launch on time, based on MJ being the person responsible for the OP gear and OP characters that came with each expansion pack (OP stuff that upset game balance while pandering to the players dark-side in an attempt to sell expansions at the expense of game balance), etc. . . .

Based on watching MJ over the years, and how he treats the customer, I do not hold much hope for any MMO that MJ is involved in. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Edit:
This is probably MJs ego needing to respond to the Zenimaxannouncement concerning their 3 faction MMO (Zenimax=Matt Firor)

Click to expand...

Worth remembering though he played a large part in creating DAoC in the first place, that of itself is worth something in my book irregardless of some of the design choices he made later.

Click to expand...

Well yes and no. Matt Firor also played a significant roll in the early days of DAoC as did about 23 others. Matt also did a lot of work with SI.

TOA was directed by MJ so with TOA we got to see what MJ did without Matt's guidance. Also, WarHammer was all MJ. Based on TOA and WarHammer I would suspect that MJ thought he was better than he was and that MJ may have needed others more than he may think.

IMHO if he is guilty of anything it was listening to and implementing what players "thought" they wanted and he is far from the only recent MMO dev to make this mistake.

I actually took some encouragement from some of his responses in that thread, people can learn from their mistakes and be better for it.

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I would disagree. IMO any time that it appeared that Mythic was listening, mostly it was accidental or coencidental. If you look at any change any game company makes, mostly you will be able to find some thread some where on the web that asked for whatever change happened. That does not mean the game company ever even saw the thread.

As proof of Mythic's disdain for the customer (there are other examples)I would point to the Mythic responses to the TL reports. While I would not expect everything in the TL reports to be implemented, these reports were the compilation of what the TLs considered to be the most important things/challenges in the game, things the TLs felt needed to be looked into, and Mythic department heads had to be forced to read the TL reports and after reading the TL reports the Mythic responses were often trite, condescending lies.

Mythic put into the game whatever Mythic felt like. While there are a small few instances where Mythic did listen to the customer, mostly that was when the customer was asking for something that a Mythic person also wanted. If the customer asked for something Mythic did not want to do, like mail, Mythic just gave lame excuses.

Sorry but for the most part Mythic viewed the customer with disdain and almost anytime that it appeared that Mythic was listening, they were not, mostly not.

I don't see the attention deficit types adding much to these games, more to the opposite I think they kill them and the games are better off without them.

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This is a point worth repeating. I quit WoW because they clearly started panda-ering (har har) to the instant gratification crowd. I hope MJ makes a new MMO, and that it is in fact the spiritual successor to DAOC.

People don't seem to realize that leveling being as slow as it was was a big part of building the community that existed with DAOC. Yes, you sat and waited to regen endo or power but all that time you were talking to the people in your group or in your guild. You needed each other and that made it a great way to bolster the community.

People don't seem to realize that leveling being as slow as it was was a big part of building the community that existed with DAOC. Yes, you sat and waited to regen endo or power but all that time you were talking to the people in your group or in your guild. You needed each other and that made it a great way to bolster the community.

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I'd agree with this. Whether you dinged 50 on gobos in Lyonesse or later on in AC by the time you did hit 50 you'd have played with anyone who was anyone on your server and you knew them pretty well. The VN forums solidified that community outside the game.

People don't seem to realize that leveling being as slow as it was was a big part of building the community that existed with DAOC. Yes, you sat and waited to regen endo or power but all that time you were talking to the people in your group or in your guild. You needed each other and that made it a great way to bolster the community.

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Except that while it bolstered one part of the community it contributed to the demise of the community.

In a way I agree with you that the downtime did allow for socializing. But there was far too much downtime.

I did not mind the neck check. Sometimes it was 15 min but other times it was 3 min, depending on when you arrived. I often planed on bio breaks at the neck check, or getting a soda, or etc. . .

The forced down time was something that did have positives but for the same reason that it should not be 3 hr neck checks and 1 min fighting with 20 mins sitting (exaggeration for obviousness) sitting doing nothing for 2 thirds of your time in game was also rather silly.

Again, players come to the game to battle, not sit watching a green bar regen.

I could see 1 min of battle and 30 seconds regen but the way Mythic had things was silly. If I want to sit and converse with my guild and/or alliance I can craft, or do it riding a horse, or etc. . . . There are enough long periods of downtime where socializing can take place, the game did not need to extend the grind so much into the psychotic.

People don't seem to realize that leveling being as slow as it was was a big part of building the community that existed with DAOC. Yes, you sat and waited to regen endo or power but all that time you were talking to the people in your group or in your guild. You needed each other and that made it a great way to bolster the community.

Click to expand...

I'd agree with this. Whether you dinged 50 on gobos in Lyonesse or later on in AC by the time you did hit 50 you'd have played with anyone who was anyone on your server and you knew them pretty well. The VN forums solidified that community outside the game.

Click to expand...

The encouraging thing is after WAR, AoC etc. I think a lot of players have come full circle over the last few years and are beginning to appreciate that lot of the things they thought they wanted didn't actually translate into fun games. That fast levelling, hybrid "never need a group" classes, instances, voice chat and solo gameplay have come at a price and while some players will demand them I think there may well be a large enough community to support a game that forgoes them and appreciate why.

People don't seem to realize that leveling being as slow as it was was a big part of building the community that existed with DAOC. Yes, you sat and waited to regen endo or power but all that time you were talking to the people in your group or in your guild. You needed each other and that made it a great way to bolster the community.

Click to expand...

I'd agree with this. Whether you dinged 50 on gobos in Lyonesse or later on in AC by the time you did hit 50 you'd have played with anyone who was anyone on your server and you knew them pretty well. The VN forums solidified that community outside the game.

Click to expand...

The encouraging thing is after WAR, AoC etc. I think a lot of players have come full circle over the last few years and are beginning to appreciate that lot of the things they thought they wanted didn't actually translate into fun games. That fast levelling, hybrid "never need a group" classes, instances, voice chat and solo gameplay have come at a price and while some players will demand them I think there may well be a large enough community to support a game that forgoes them and appreciate why.

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Those things you mentioned are major reasons why I don't currently play any MMO's. Overall I'm not happy with where this genre is headed. I don't see myself being interested in an MMO ever again unless it's designed an "old school" way.

The encouraging thing is after WAR, AoC etc. I think a lot of players have come full circle over the last few years and are beginning to appreciate that lot of the things they thought they wanted didn't actually translate into fun games. That fast levelling, hybrid "never need a group" classes, instances, voice chat and solo gameplay have come at a price and while some players will demand them I think there may well be a large enough community to support a game that forgoes them and appreciate why.

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There needs to be balance. There needs to be the ability to run solo, there needs to be a need to run in groups. IDs have uses but the use of IDs needs to be very limited, etc. . . . ( but TDs were the worst idea Mythic ever came up with. They are a form of ID that was way overused.) There needs to be something for everyone.

This is why WoW is so populous. It has something for most everyone. No not everyone, just mostly everyone.

The encouraging thing is after WAR, AoC etc. I think a lot of players have come full circle over the last few years and are beginning to appreciate that lot of the things they thought they wanted didn't actually translate into fun games. That fast levelling, hybrid "never need a group" classes, instances, voice chat and solo gameplay have come at a price and while some players will demand them I think there may well be a large enough community to support a game that forgoes them and appreciate why.

Click to expand...

There needs to be balance. There needs to be the ability to run solo, there needs to be a need to run in groups. IDs have uses but the use of IDs needs to be very limited, etc. . . . ( but TDs were the worst idea Mythic ever came up with. They are a form of ID that was way overused.) There needs to be something for everyone.

This is why WoW is so populous. It has something for most everyone. No not everyone, just mostly everyone.

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The problem is in my experience is you put solo game play in and that is exactly what everyone does 90% of the time. I think it's great to have solo diversions like crafting but when you make it so players can complete most of the game that way you just killed the community.

The problem is in my experience is you put solo game play in and that is exactly what everyone does 90% of the time. I think it's great to have solo diversions like crafting but when you make it so players can complete most of the game that way you just killed the community.

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You should rethink that because it is actually just the opposite. The problem that I see, when people (developers) do not allow others to have fun the way that the others 'need'.

Almost everyone solos from time to time. Even those that group a lot, end up with times when they only have half an hour to play and they log in and go do some fun solo stuff.

This game was much more fun when the subs were at 250k and the game allowed for a much more diverse style of play than the game has today. Today the game caters to mostly one play style and if you do not play that style you need to find another game.

Some players solo 20% of the time while others solo 90 % of the time. So what? Some PvE 90 % of the time while others PvE 10% of the time. So? Some craft 90% of the time, is crafting to be the only acceptable solo thing to do?

If a player solos 50% of the time but the game does not allow much in the way of solo play, it does not take long for that players who groups 50% of the time to leave and find a game that has more fun solo play. The 'group only' game ends up loosing a player that groups half the time. What of a player that solos 40% of the time? 30%? 60%?

It is the same challenge that DAoC has with PvE. (this is just for example) Mythic has destroyed the point of PvE in DAoC and the vast majority of MMO players PvE alot. Even those that only PvE 30% of the time still need that PvE fix and if the game has horrible/pointless PvE then when the player needs that PvE fix they go to a different game. If the other game has an adequate PvP and good PvE, eventually that different game can occupy all of the players MMO time and DAoC subs go in the toilet. . . .kind of exactly what is happening in DAoC. It is the same with solo play. MMOs need to allow diverse playstyles.

One of the reasons that WoW is so popular is that 80% to 85% of the game can be done solo. It is not that everyone is solo 80% of the time but that when players end up needing some solo time there are almost always fun things they can do. Almost everyone solos from time to time and if there is mostly very little solo available, when a player only has solo time or when a players needs some solo time if the game does not give much fun to the solo player then eventually almost everyone leaves.

One of the huge challenges with DAoC is that it has been twisted to cater to primarily one playstyle and if you are in one of the other dozen or so play styles your just screwed.

I really do not understand the mind set where someone forces their playstyle on others. "you can only solo in activities that I say it is ok to solo in and you play my playstyle or find a different game." Well if you look at the population of DAoC, many/most have just found a different game.

You are not correct that solo play harms a game community. It does not. Allowing many playstyles to have fun allows for a much larger and much more diverse game population which gives a much more diverse community.

Edit: At one time I soloed about 50% of the time but whenever I was solo I was never isolated from the community. I was always in guild/alliance chat conversing with others, having fun with others. Solo does not mean alone/isolated.

The problem is in my experience is you put solo game play in and that is exactly what everyone does 90% of the time. I think it's great to have solo diversions like crafting but when you make it so players can complete most of the game that way you just killed the community.

Click to expand...

You should rethink that because it is actually just the opposite. The problem that I see, when people (developers) do not allow others to have fun the way that the others 'need'.

Almost everyone solos from time to time. Even those that group a lot, end up with times when they only have half an hour to play and they log in and go do some fun solo stuff.

This game was much more fun when the subs were at 250k and the game allowed for a much more diverse style of play than the game has today. Today the game caters to mostly one play style and if you do not play that style you need to find another game.

Some players solo 20% of the time while others solo 90 % of the time. So what? Some PvE 90 % of the time while others PvE 10% of the time. So? Some craft 90% of the time, is crafting to be the only acceptable solo thing to do?

If a player solos 50% of the time but the game does not allow much in the way of solo play, it does not take long for that players who groups 50% of the time to leave and find a game that has more fun solo play. The 'group only' game ends up loosing a player that groups half the time. What of a player that solos 40% of the time? 30%? 60%?

It is the same challenge that DAoC has with PvE. (this is just for example) Mythic has destroyed the point of PvE in DAoC and the vast majority of MMO players PvE alot. Even those that only PvE 30% of the time still need that PvE fix and if the game has horrible/pointless PvE then when the player needs that PvE fix they go to a different game. If the other game has an adequate PvP and good PvE, eventually that different game can occupy all of the players MMO time and DAoC subs go in the toilet. . . .kind of exactly what is happening in DAoC. It is the same with solo play. MMOs need to allow diverse playstyles.

One of the reasons that WoW is so popular is that 80% to 85% of the game can be done solo. It is not that everyone is solo 80% of the time but that when players end up needing some solo time there are almost always fun things they can do. Almost everyone solos from time to time and if there is mostly very little solo available, when a player only has solo time or when a players needs some solo time if the game does not give much fun to the solo player then eventually almost everyone leaves.

One of the huge challenges with DAoC is that it has been twisted to cater to primarily one playstyle and if you are in one of the other dozen or so play styles your just screwed.

I really do not understand the mind set where someone forces their playstyle on others. "you can only solo in activities that I say it is ok to solo in and you play my playstyle or find a different game." Well if you look at the population of DAoC, many/most have just found a different game.

You are not correct that solo play harms a game community. It does not. Allowing many playstyles to have fun allows for a much larger and much more diverse game population which gives a much more diverse community.

Edit: At one time I soloed about 50% of the time but whenever I was solo I was never isolated from the community. I was always in guild/alliance chat conversing with others, having fun with others. Solo does not mean alone/isolated.

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And the designers of every failed MMO the last 5 years agree with you.

And the designers of every failed MMO the last 5 years agree with you.

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Actually they must not because most designers of "every failed MMO in the last 5 years" do things that I would consider completely self-destructive. They try to copy the smart things from proven games but they copy with a shot gun approach, randomly copying things with the hopes they will copy enough to make their game a success, but in the end they really do not understand the customer and add enough destructive things and the game tanks.

Facts are facts. Most MMO players solo quite a bit (this is a fact). If the game does not have enough solo game play, when a player wants to solo the player will find a different game.

It is the same for PvE. Most MMO players PvE a lot (this too is a fact). If the game does not have good PvE, when a player wants to PvE they find a different game.

WoW is proof. I know that many have an illogical and visceral hatred of WoW but the numbers are the numbers and facts are facts. WoW has a very good and comprehensive PvE game and WoW has a great population. Much of WoW is also solo friendly and that too contributes to WoWs huge subscription numbers.

Just because "designers of every failed MMO the last 5 years" do enough stupid things to cause their games to fail, that does not validate your point (it also does not invalidate my points).

To try appealing to people who like WoW is not a smart approach. A smaller game studio (like Mr. Jacobs new one, CSE) would be wise to make a niche game that has a more old school style of play which has at the forefront the 3 realm RvR concept. That is, more challenging, and not trying to bring in those that want instant gratification from MMO's.

To try appealing to people who like WoW is not a smart approach. A smaller game studio (like Mr. Jacobs new one, CSE) would be wise to make a niche game that has a more old school style of play which has at the forefront the 3 realm RvR concept. That is, more challenging, and not trying to bring in those that want instant gratification from MMO's.

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Yes, and no. It is not really the instant gratification that makes WoW so popular, it is other things.

The things that need to be copied from WoW are probably not the things you would think, so the end result would not really need to be similar to WoW. This is why so many developers that copy from WoW end up with games that are not popular, they misunderstand what in WoW is actually important.

Also, copying that WoW:

has Mail,
has flying mounts,
has a much better set of controls for guild leaders to manage guilds,
has a much better Customer service paradigm than DAoC,
has a much better standard UI than DAoC's standard UI,
does not often over nerf characters/classes like Mythic has always had a tendency to do with the Mythic nerf bat
has a much nicer death penalty system than DAoC
has a much nicer group gathering system than DAoC
still has useful old world areas even after numerous expansions
has a useful LFG system
has Blizzard run forums.
has a comprehensive PvE system where PvE players can still have fun
has many PvE areas that are solo friendly
has player pets coded so that the pet almost never vanish when a player ports but in DAoC the pet vanished 19.2% of the time.
-Blizzard is much more proactive at attacking bugs than Mythic.
etc. . .
etc. . .

These things just make for a nice game, they do not make a game a clone of WoW.

From DAoC they need three realms, varied classes from realm to realm, a single frontiers, a dungeon like DF where control of the dungeon is governed by control of a limited number of things in the frontiers, guilds and guild chat, alliances with alliance chat, DAoC's combat system, etc. . . .

Edit: Looking at MJs track record, with TOA and WarHammer, I do not see that he understands what the customer needs. I think that when DAoC was first made, and for a year or so after, there were people around MJ that helped keep MJ in check but they are with other games now.

I do not see him building a successful MMO. It would be nice if he did, but statistically I do not see it happening.

I'm not saying WoW is the devil and all things in it are bad. I think WoW has some fantastic features and gameplay elements. Though some of the things you mentioned I'm not fond of. For example flying mounts, which has a negative affect on world PvP. And I don't see how the hell they'd work in a game that has an RvR system similar to DAOC. Unless you just not allow them to be used in the frontiers. Also I feel the death penalty in WoW is not severe enough. I think there should be some sting to dying, not so much that you just say FUCK IT and log off, but enough that you actually care if you die.

I'm not saying WoW is the devil and all things in it are bad. I think WoW has some fantastic features and gameplay elements. Though some of the things you mentioned I'm not fond of. For example flying mounts, which has a negative affect on world PvP. And I don't see how the hell they'd work in a game that has an RvR system similar to DAOC. Unless you just not allow them to be used in the frontiers. Also I feel the death penalty in WoW is not severe enough. I think there should be some sting to dying, not so much that you just say FUCK IT and log off, but enough that you actually care if you die.

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"Unless you just not allow them to be used in the frontiers."

Exactly, they would be for PvE fun, not for the frontiers.

"Also I feel the death penalty in WoW is not severe enough. I think there should be some sting to dying, not so much that you just say FUCK IT and log off, but enough that you actually care if you die"

I agree to some extent. The challenge that I see with DAoCs death penalty system, back when leveling was slow, is it prevents grouping with noobs.

Over and over early on in DAoC I would see groups disband because some noob got the group killed enough that in 10 to 15 minutes an entire days PvE leveling experience was trashed. Players would make excuses as to why they needed to log and then 10 mins later you would see the players from the group running around solo with their bot, leveling.

You may think that a death penalty system needs to be more sever than WoW, and perhaps it does, but I often saw noobs get groups killed over and over in WoW and the group stayed formed up because the penalty does not ruin a days leveling.

Facts are facts. Most MMO players solo quite a bit (this is a fact). If the game does not have enough solo game play, when a player wants to solo the player will find a different game.

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They solo because everyone else is doing it, because the few group experiences they tried were bad and they went back to soloing, because they are new players or ones that have been away from the genre a long time and don't know anyone, etc. - you are right most MMO players solo - and after about a month they get bored with what amounts to a mediocre single player RPG with zero community and quit, see WHO, see AoC, see GW2 etc. it hasn't worked for anyone but WoW which has been successful for a lot of reasons a lot of which don't have anything to do with solo game play. WoW is like Twilight books - populist hyped juvenile crap, Cormac McCarthy it's not.

Feel free to disagree, you win I guess since you have about 10 recent MMO's with servers pretty much all to yourself and you can solo to your hearts content. Have fun!

To try appealing to people who like WoW is not a smart approach. A smaller game studio (like Mr. Jacobs new one, CSE) would be wise to make a niche game that has a more old school style of play which has at the forefront the 3 realm RvR concept. That is, more challenging, and not trying to bring in those that want instant gratification from MMO's.

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Agree 100% and from reading Jacob's posts it would seem he is leaning very much that way.

Facts are facts. Most MMO players solo quite a bit (this is a fact). If the game does not have enough solo game play, when a player wants to solo the player will find a different game.

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They solo because everyone else is doing it, because the few group experiences they tried were bad and they went back to soloing, because they are new players or ones that have been away from the genre a long time and don't know anyone, etc. - you are right most MMO players solo - and after about a month they get bored with what amounts to a mediocre single player RPG with zero community and quit, see WHO, see AoC, see GW2 etc. it hasn't worked for anyone but WoW which has been successful for a lot of reasons a lot of which don't have anything to do with solo game play. WoW is like Twilight books - populist hyped juvenile crap, Cormac McCarthy it's not.

Feel free to disagree, you win I guess since you have about 10 recent MMO's with servers pretty much all to yourself and you can solo to your hearts content. Have fun!

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Well I do disagree.

WHO was a dud because of many, many things, not because people could solo. The other games as well, they all had problems that drove away players. It is truly disingenuous to take a poorly designed game like WHO and imply that its lack of success is due to solo play (when WHO has so many other problems). All this actually proves is that no matter how positive solo play can be for a game, the fact that a game has solo play does not have enough of a positive impact to overcome a multitude of other problems.

If you want a game that has a lot of solo game play for player, to use a proof that solo does not harm a game, look no further than the gargantuan WoW. WoW is proof that allowing a lot of solo play does not harm a properly designed game. (Now when I say properly designed, please do not take that to mean I think every game is not properly designed unless it looks like WoW. That is not at all what I am saying.)

DAoC was properly designed and it did not look like WoW. The problem with DAoC is that Mythic took a roughly–hewn , but properly designed game, and they never polished out the rough edges but instead ignored polishing the rough edges (Mythic ignored: adding player friendly features, adding mail, adding the player controlled mount, fixing los bugs, fixing general bugs, putting limits on the bot, improving the UI, etc. . . . ) and instead of polish Mythic added balance upsetting and buggy expansions, expansions that continually made the old world obsolete (expansions that continually pissed off players until the expansion problems were eventually addressed). DAoC was a properly designed game with horrible implementation.

Sorry but WoW is truly proof that a game allowing a lot of solo play does not harm subscriptions. If solo play harmed subscriptions then WoW would not have the subs that it has. WoW allows for a huge amount of solo play.

Well, my opinion of why the game started to die used to get shouted down by the masses for years.

2. How hard leveling was back in the day.
My first toon to 50 (Spysong-Infiltrator) took 60 days played to cap out. But that was with no bot & mostly solo the whole way on account nobody wanted to group a stealther back then. Kiddies don't have that kind've patience to grind it out that long to be effective in RvR.

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Ha. I hear that, it took me 63 days to get to 50. I started a ranger right after they got nerfed and no one would ever group me. I killed so many fking treess :/

Mark Jacobs is a brilliant game designer and I am glad he didn't retire completely after the soul crushing experience of getting bought by EA.

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While I do not love EA the only thing EA did that was soul crushing, in relationship to DAoC/WarHammer and MJ, was to dump huge amounts of cash into WarHammer and give MJ almost complete free reign to do whatever he wanted. EA did not really start putting their foot down until MJ started pushing back the launch date of WarHammer. It was only after WarHammer was proven to be rather dismal that EA decided to replace MJ.

While EA may have been soul crushing in the way they dealt with other games, it is rather disingenuous to call EA soul crushing in the way they handled WarHammer/MJ.

Some people are forgetting a huge detail that is related to Mark Jacobs. If he made something horrible, it doesn't mean he hasn't learned a thing or two from that mistake.

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We have a decade of watching MJ having NOT learned from the mistakes in DAoC to show that, while he may have learned something from his mistakes, he seems to have a difficult time putting what he learned into practice (or he really did not learn much at all).

We also have WarHammer as an example to show us how well he puts into practice those lessons he supposedly learned from DAoC.

I still cant for the life of me figure out why all these cookie cutter MMO's these days still only do the 2 faction system. I mean even GW2 was retarded in that it just took 3 different servers.... still cookie cutter but with a twist. No MMO out that I know of now, aside from DAoC, has a 3 faction focus. Its really sad to watch this genre of games go down the drain since DAoC .. I've slowly started getting away from PC gaming because the MMO's that come out are constant let downs in comparison. Oh well, hopefully he can make this one as right as possible.

I still cant for the life of me figure out why all these cookie cutter MMO's these days still only do the 2 faction system. I mean even GW2 was retarded in that it just took 3 different servers.... still cookie cutter but with a twist. No MMO out that I know of now, aside from DAoC, has a 3 faction focus. Its really sad to watch this genre of games go down the drain since DAoC .. I've slowly started getting away from PC gaming because the MMO's that come out are constant let downs in comparison. Oh well, hopefully he can make this one as right as possible.

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I would put forward, as a possible answer to your question, that from many outward measurements DAoC was only a somewhat moderate success and by many standards today, if DAoC were launched today with the same level of development it had when it launched more than a decade ago, with the same bugs, with the same lack of player friendly features, etc. . . by many objective measurements DAoC would flop if launched today.

Game developers look at DAoC from an objective outside view and from that view there are not many objective reasons to copy from DAoC.

I know that many will get in an uproar, because they view DAoC from a less than objective viewpoint, but from an outside view point DAoC began with a bang and then, just 9 months after launch, DAoC began bleeding subscriptions faster than it was pulling in noobs.

Just because a few players love DAoC does not mean other developers should copy what seems to be a mediocre game paradigm.

Logically if someone were to want to copy a successful game paridigm they would look at games with a great deal more success than DAoC.

Now you and I know DAoC from the inside and we also know the stupid and self-destructive mistakes that Mythic made which harmed the game. You an I know that if Mythic had not had such a huge self-destructive streak then DAoC would probably have more than a million subs today and everyone would be copying DAoC. But the typical developer out there does not know all that stuff.

Some people are forgetting a huge detail that is related to Mark Jacobs. If he made something horrible, it doesn't mean he hasn't learned a thing or two from that mistake.

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Everyone makes mistakes. The fact that Mark Jacobs made DAOC is enough for me take an interest in any new MMO he makes. Especially when the signs are pointing to another 3-faction RvR system.

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EA was responsible for the WoW-izing of Warhammer which is what ultimately ruined its RvR.

Add to that the fact that Games Workshop is ridiculously strict in the way they manage their license, and you have a very difficult position to be in.

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Going to disagree with EA being responsible for WoW-izing WAR. The first closed beta test might as well have been in Azeroth, it looked so much like WoW. It actually moved away from the closer it got to release.

I agree that being caught between EA screaming to get the game released and GW squeezing the license made for a very tricky situation.

Just throwing in my opinion - But since DAOC i have tried almost every MMO out there. and i can not hang around for more than 6-12 months.. i feel like when i get to level cap, RVR (PVP) its a grind fest for gear and is boring and there is just a lack of options. But what keeps me wanting to come back is the RVR content in DAOC. I still believe its one of the best designed RVR systems to date, Take that concept alone and combine it with PVE content like wow and I'm sure you would be close to a winning game. don't you think ?

Based on MJ blaming his disastrous treatment of WarHammer customers on the distributors, based on MJ reneging on many promises concerning DAoC and then absolving himself of any responsibility, based on TOA (TOA was supposedly MJs baby), based on how the WarHammer staff ballooned to 400 and still could not launch on time, based on MJ being the person responsible for the OP gear and OP characters that came with each expansion pack (OP stuff that upset game balance while pandering to the players dark-side in an attempt to sell expansions at the expense of game balance), etc. . . .

Based on watching MJ over the years, and how he treats the customer, I do not hold much hope for any MMO that MJ is involved in. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Edit:
This is probably MJs ego needing to respond to the Zenimaxannouncement concerning their 3 faction MMO (Zenimax=Matt Firor)

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At that time EA owned Warhammer project. EA wanted to make their own WoW clone.

Just throwing in my opinion - But since DAOC i have tried almost every MMO out there. and i can not hang around for more than 6-12 months.. i feel like when i get to level cap, RVR (PVP) its a grind fest for gear and is boring and there is just a lack of options. But what keeps me wanting to come back is the RVR content in DAOC. I still believe its one of the best designed RVR systems to date, Take that concept alone and combine it with PVE content like wow and I'm sure you would be close to a winning game. don't you think ?

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I agree with you. I have never seen a Realm Community like Dark Age was. We knew each other. Guild set up was one of the best. We had player housing. We had to work as a team. No crossing realming. We had to earn our Realm Rank. Alliance of guilds was the one of the best.