Have the major dealers really stopped negotiating on the price of used cars. I have been back and forth with so many dealerships and they don't even budge. Is this the norm with the efficiency of internet pricing?

Last edited by SCSurf on Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Most of the dealers in our area have changed to "no haggle" pricing. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

We have been in the market for a 2016 or 2017 Ford Fusion Energi for a month or so. I use Cargurus.com and check the landscape.

Probably a $6k price difference for a 2017 with ~20k miles. Wide range.

A local "no haggle" shop had one we liked ~3 weeks ago for $23,999. At this price I wasn't interested. The MSRP was $42k. Invoice about $40k when new.

Within 2 weeks the price went to $22,999. $21,999, 20,999 and last week $19,999. $4k lower in 2 weeks.

No haggle + No sell = Price is going down. The hard part is you have to wait and be patient and if a car sells, move on.

Personally, I don't like "no haggle" but I understand it. Takes the pressure off on both sides. This is our "best" price (at this moment).

I bought a used car recently thru internet sales and this has been my experience, their internet price is more or less fixed. However, I just do some research to see what the car I want is going for and offer them a price, sometimes a little lower, and it has worked. No haggling just yes or no. If they know you are serious, they may just take your offer, a quick sale is better than no sale, usually my offer is within $500 to $1000 of the internet price. Prices can drop by $500 to $1000 or so within a few days, so if there is a car you like, keep track of it.

I grew up in the car business & worked in new & used car sales for 3 yrs.

Know the car market for the model youre looking at. Determine your price and then check the car out. Once you sit down with the salesman make an offer $500-$800 below what you are willing to pay and write a check for the amount you intend to put down. You now have the salesman's attention. He will do everything he can to keep that check. Be friendly & compromise letting him work you up to the price youre wishing to pay. If he doesnt -get up and leave. The salesman just might call you later with a counter offer. If not and you really like the car, call back in 4 or 5 days and raise your offer a little.

Dont be a blabber mouth & be careful with what you reveal, but dont try to deceive - he has seen and heard it all before. Do not say you are paying cash, do not say you are going to finance through your bank. Let them assume they may be able to finance you (I have made more money from the "back end" then the actual car sale).

If you feel the dealer has hit the bottom price, only then bump for extras...maybe get them to repair a mechanical concern, a dent, dinged upholstery or a cracked window... upgrade a stereo, tires, paint protection, extended warranty, etc.

Lastly, be respectful & friendly if it gets personal it becomes contentious. Sell him on liking you and he will work harder.

Keep in mind youre dealing with a professional, he talks to several people like you every day. You cant beat him at his own game unless he lets you.

Keep in mind youre dealing with a professional, he talks to several people like you every day. You cant beat him at his own game unless he lets you.

Probably not every day. I was in a dealership and they told me they sold only one single car that day when I picked my car up after hours. While I was in the dealership earlier that day, there were no other customers. I had everyone's undivided attention. They were going to have to do something to meet their weekly quota.

My experience over the last few used cars is there isn't much wiggle room. I always start by looking at prices online and compare similar cars with similar mileage. Also, you have more chance to get concessions on the phone vs at the dealership.

There is more wiggle room on a trade in if you have one. They may up the trade in price substantially to near break even to make the sale. Also you may be able to get them to throw in some dealer add ons like window tint and new floor mats.

Have the major dealers really stopped negotiating on the price of used cars. I have been back and forth with so many dealerships and they don't even budge. Is this the norm with the efficiency of internet pricing?

OP, are you looking for a specific car/model year? Also, the best deals tend to come from private party sales. CraigsList and cars.com is your friend.

Have the major dealers really stopped negotiating on the price of used cars. I have been back and forth with so many dealerships and they don't even budge. Is this the norm with the efficiency of internet pricing?

OP, are you looking for a specific car/model year? Also, the best deals tend to come from private party sales. CraigsList and cars.com is your friend.

Be careful when using Craigslist and similar sites. Several people in our community have been robbed this way. They bring cash to see a car and the thugs rob them. This has even happened in public places like Walmart parking lot.

Keep in mind youre dealing with a professional, he talks to several people like you every day. You cant beat him at his own game unless he lets you.

Probably not every day. I was in a dealership and they told me they sold only one single car that day when I picked my car up after hours. While I was in the dealership earlier that day, there were no other customers. I had everyone's undivided attention. They were going to have to do something to meet their weekly quota.

And you believed them?

"Things are bad-Ive got to move a car today or I will be on the street."
"Lady, I gotta tell ya-you are married to the toughest negotiator I ever met."
"Brother, I should call the police, you literally stole this car"
"Dont tell anyone that I let you have this car at this price."
"Trust me"
...

Keep in mind youre dealing with a professional, he talks to several people like you every day. You cant beat him at his own game unless he lets you.

Probably not every day. I was in a dealership and they told me they sold only one single car that day when I picked my car up after hours. While I was in the dealership earlier that day, there were no other customers. I had everyone's undivided attention. They were going to have to do something to meet their weekly quota.

And you believed them?

"Things are bad-Ive got to move a car today or I will be on the street."
"Lady, I gotta tell ya-you are married to the toughest negotiator I ever met."
"Brother, I should call the police, you literally stole this car"
"Dont tell anyone that I let you have this car at this price."
"Trust me"
...

Yep, I believed them lock, stock, and barrel. I paid $20,000 more for my new car than anybody else, too.

Have the major dealers really stopped negotiating on the price of used cars. I have been back and forth with so many dealerships and they don't even budge. Is this the norm with the efficiency of internet pricing?

My most recent experience with some 2-3 year old certified pre-owned cars has been that the local dealers weren't willing to budge a dime off of the price on their website. "We have posted our lowest price." And most of that time the price was reasonable, but human nature is to think there is more wiggle room. I tried the whole "get up and walk out" routine that used to work, but not on these guys.

That is very different from 5+ years ago when they were very willing to haggle and you could quickly get their price down to a more reasonable ballpark.

Have the major dealers really stopped negotiating on the price of used cars. I have been back and forth with so many dealerships and they don't even budge. Is this the norm with the efficiency of internet pricing?

Depends. I have always gotten major discounts with all new and used vehicles.* But those data are skewed by all the vehicles that I did not buy because the seller would not move at all. Some marques are less likely to deal. In a moment of weakness, I pushed hard on a used Cayenne hybrid at a dealer (thinking in part that no one in my area would buy this and I could get a good deal) and they would not budge. one. penny. Same with a used E63 AMG years ago (at a third-party lot).

But every Honda, Toyota, Mazda, and BMW I've bought in the past decades has had significant discount and I have not noticed a change. Last purchase was 2016 or so but I'm always looking.

* Oh wait -- not the brand new Odyssey that was by far the best minivan at the time and they were having trouble getting enough of them. For that we paid full sticker (but no premium) and even went to the lot in the dead of night to meet the sales manager. They were bringing them down from Canada and still selling them at a premium. I would try to stay away from such high-demand vehicles for as long as possible, or until a few $K isn't that important.

Most of the dealers in our area have changed to "no haggle" pricing. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

We have been in the market for a 2016 or 2017 Ford Fusion Energi for a month or so. I use Cargurus.com and check the landscape.

Probably a $6k price difference for a 2017 with ~20k miles. Wide range.

A local "no haggle" shop had one we liked ~3 weeks ago for $23,999. At this price I wasn't interested. The MSRP was $42k. Invoice about $40k when new.

Within 2 weeks the price went to $22,999. $21,999, 20,999 and last week $19,999. $4k lower in 2 weeks.

No haggle + No sell = Price is going down. The hard part is you have to wait and be patient and if a car sells, move on.

Personally, I don't like "no haggle" but I understand it. Takes the pressure off on both sides. This is our "best" price (at this moment).

Buying a used car is fairly easy if you understand the market. Haggle or no haggle is completely irrelevant. 1) Find the car you want on the used car lot and test drive it to verify you like it and want it. 2) Verify that it is actually available from the sales person, write down the car's VIN and mileage, and then let them know you may be contacting them and leave the premises. Under no circumstances should you negotiate on premises. 3) Call the sales person and politely make a fair offer for the vehicle that is bottom line cost - that means your offer is the total drive out price with only local sales tax (avg range 5-9%), tag (avg $60) and title (avg $50) fees to be added. If sales person talks about any other added fees tell them very specifically that they can make other fees anything they want as long as they adjust the car price so that the bottom line total (drive out cost) matches your offer to the penny. Do not discuss fees as it is a sucker move and completely irrelevant to total drive out cost. When you make the call also send an email with that offer with text stating offer is only good until you find a car and purchase a car and that you are actively shopping multiple other dealers (even if you are not).

4) Tell sales person you are actively shopping other sources for a car (but absolutely don't reveal anything about that - not what, where, or who) - if they ask reply that information is private. Let them know if they (and their manager) decide they can sell that specific car (identified in writing by VIN and mileage) for your offer price to call you back. If they feel the price is too low for them, that's fine, tell them good luck and do not call you back unless they accept the offer.

Then wait and be very patient. If that dealer can sell that car to anyone else for even a dollar more they will do so, but if a few days go by and they get nervous, impatient, etc. they might call you back and take the offer.

5) If they call and say they take the offer tell them to send you an email invoice with total drive out price (plus exact tax, tag and title fees) so you can get a check for that exact amount. Tell them if the total amount is even a penny different when you go to pick up the car, you walk out and they permanently lose your business.

Be polite, firm but friendly. Buying a car is fundamentally an impersonal business transaction, and there is no reason to treat it as anything else. btw - what the dealer paid for the car, how many cars they sold that day or week, how much profit or loss they will earn on your sale, etc . - all of it is completely irrelevant to your transaction.

Most of the dealers in our area have changed to "no haggle" pricing. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

We have been in the market for a 2016 or 2017 Ford Fusion Energi for a month or so. I use Cargurus.com and check the landscape.

Probably a $6k price difference for a 2017 with ~20k miles. Wide range.

A local "no haggle" shop had one we liked ~3 weeks ago for $23,999. At this price I wasn't interested. The MSRP was $42k. Invoice about $40k when new.

Within 2 weeks the price went to $22,999. $21,999, 20,999 and last week $19,999. $4k lower in 2 weeks.

No haggle + No sell = Price is going down. The hard part is you have to wait and be patient and if a car sells, move on.

Personally, I don't like "no haggle" but I understand it. Takes the pressure off on both sides. This is our "best" price (at this moment).

Buying a used car is fairly easy if you understand the market. Haggle or no haggle is completely irrelevant. 1) Find the car you want on the used car lot and test drive it to verify you like it and want it. 2) Verify that it is actually available from the sales person, write down the car's VIN and mileage, and then let them know you may be contacting them and leave the premises. Under no circumstances should you negotiate on premises. 3) Call the sales person and politely make a fair offer for the vehicle that is bottom line cost - that means your offer is the total drive out price with only local sales tax (avg range 5-9%), tag (avg $60) and title (avg $50) fees to be added. If sales person talks about any other added fees tell them very specifically that they can make other fees anything they want as long as they adjust the car price so that the bottom line total (drive out cost) matches your offer to the penny. Do not discuss fees as it is a sucker move and completely irrelevant to total drive out cost. When you make the call also send an email with that offer with text stating offer is only good until you find a car and purchase a car and that you are actively shopping multiple other dealers (even if you are not).

4) Tell sales person you are actively shopping other sources for a car (but absolutely don't reveal anything about that - not what, where, or who) - if they ask reply that information is private. Let them know if they (and their manager) decide they can sell that specific car (identified in writing by VIN and mileage) for your offer price to call you back. If they feel the price is too low for them, that's fine, tell them good luck and do not call you back unless they accept the offer.

Then wait and be very patient. If that dealer can sell that car to anyone else for even a dollar more they will do so, but if a few days go by and they get nervous, impatient, etc. they might call you back and take the offer.

5) If they call and say they take the offer tell them to send you an email invoice with total drive out price (plus exact tax, tag and title fees) so you can get a check for that exact amount. Tell them if the total amount is even a penny different when you go to pick up the car, you walk out and they permanently lose your business.

Be polite, firm but friendly. Buying a car is fundamentally an impersonal business transaction, and there is no reason to treat it as anything else. btw - what the dealer paid for the car, how many cars they sold that day or week, how much profit or loss they will earn on your sale, etc . - all of it is completely irrelevant to your transaction.

To do this you have to not really want the car, which is what makes buying used and new different.

Most of the dealers in our area have changed to "no haggle" pricing. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

We have been in the market for a 2016 or 2017 Ford Fusion Energi for a month or so. I use Cargurus.com and check the landscape.

Probably a $6k price difference for a 2017 with ~20k miles. Wide range.

A local "no haggle" shop had one we liked ~3 weeks ago for $23,999. At this price I wasn't interested. The MSRP was $42k. Invoice about $40k when new.

Within 2 weeks the price went to $22,999. $21,999, 20,999 and last week $19,999. $4k lower in 2 weeks.

No haggle + No sell = Price is going down. The hard part is you have to wait and be patient and if a car sells, move on.

Personally, I don't like "no haggle" but I understand it. Takes the pressure off on both sides. This is our "best" price (at this moment).

Buying a used car is fairly easy if you understand the market. Haggle or no haggle is completely irrelevant. 1) Find the car you want on the used car lot and test drive it to verify you like it and want it. 2) Verify that it is actually available from the sales person, write down the car's VIN and mileage, and then let them know you may be contacting them and leave the premises. Under no circumstances should you negotiate on premises. 3) Call the sales person and politely make a fair offer for the vehicle that is bottom line cost - that means your offer is the total drive out price with only local sales tax (avg range 5-9%), tag (avg $60) and title (avg $50) fees to be added. If sales person talks about any other added fees tell them very specifically that they can make other fees anything they want as long as they adjust the car price so that the bottom line total (drive out cost) matches your offer to the penny. Do not discuss fees as it is a sucker move and completely irrelevant to total drive out cost. When you make the call also send an email with that offer with text stating offer is only good until you find a car and purchase a car and that you are actively shopping multiple other dealers (even if you are not).

4) Tell sales person you are actively shopping other sources for a car (but absolutely don't reveal anything about that - not what, where, or who) - if they ask reply that information is private. Let them know if they (and their manager) decide they can sell that specific car (identified in writing by VIN and mileage) for your offer price to call you back. If they feel the price is too low for them, that's fine, tell them good luck and do not call you back unless they accept the offer.

Then wait and be very patient. If that dealer can sell that car to anyone else for even a dollar more they will do so, but if a few days go by and they get nervous, impatient, etc. they might call you back and take the offer.

5) If they call and say they take the offer tell them to send you an email invoice with total drive out price (plus exact tax, tag and title fees) so you can get a check for that exact amount. Tell them if the total amount is even a penny different when you go to pick up the car, you walk out and they permanently lose your business.

Be polite, firm but friendly. Buying a car is fundamentally an impersonal business transaction, and there is no reason to treat it as anything else. btw - what the dealer paid for the car, how many cars they sold that day or week, how much profit or loss they will earn on your sale, etc . - all of it is completely irrelevant to your transaction.

To do this you have to not really want the car, which is what makes buying used and new different.

Sorry but that is simply not true. Buying a new versus buying a used car is the exact same transaction. It is always about demand versus supply. Dealers have cars (new or used) and they are depreciating costly assets. In most cases the dealer has a car loan on every car sitting on their lot and payments are due every month. They want to sell these assets as quickly as possible to lower their holding cost and to make a profit (if demand is there for that specific model) by selling above their cost. If lots of buyers want that specific year and model, they can sell as high as possible. If few buyers or no one wants that specific year and model they will sell even at a loss to get rid of it and minimize carry and holding costs. You make an offer on a commodity item and the seller decides if they can make a profit or minimize loss on the car at the offer price. It is as simple as that but so few people actually understand the business and the sellers deliberately try to confuse and obfuscate what is really going on.

You can buy a car at a fair price and do it as a pure business transaction or you can play the dealer's game as a sucker.

You can fall in love with the specific new or used car that you want to buy but you simply don't let the seller in on that information unless you want to over pay for it. For a specific car that is rare, or in high demand a buyer will likely not get a discount and will instead pay whatever market rate is at - nothing wrong with that as long as the person understands what they are doing to get the "in demand" car.

Of course the dealer will lie and tell a buyer that every car on their lot is hot and in demand. Always fun to ask the salesperson how long the car has been on the lot and if it was moved there from another lot. Many high volume dealers send a car to the auction after 30 days on the lot. Knowing a car is about to go to auction allows you to offer just above average wholesale on the car and likely get it.

Last edited by jabberwockOG on Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Assuming you've found the car and have test driven it and are satisfied with the dealer (and hopefully it is Ford CPO vs. used at these prices).

You've also done some pricing research. You figure out what price you are willing to pay, all taxes and fees included. Now stop and think. You have just figured out the price you are willing to pay the dealer -- this is the retail price. You figured it out; it's not a secret. Recognize the dealer bought it for less, and will be delighted with this price.

Now you are confident in your price analysis. You can then communicate with the sales manager; he wants to sell one more unit, so he can buy another... Have no doubts. You can establish your price, and not haggle.

Keep in mind youre dealing with a professional, he talks to several people like you every day. You cant beat him at his own game unless he lets you.

Probably not every day. I was in a dealership and they told me they sold only one single car that day when I picked my car up after hours. While I was in the dealership earlier that day, there were no other customers. I had everyone's undivided attention. They were going to have to do something to meet their weekly quota.

And you believed them?

"Things are bad-Ive got to move a car today or I will be on the street."
"Lady, I gotta tell ya-you are married to the toughest negotiator I ever met."
"Brother, I should call the police, you literally stole this car"
"Dont tell anyone that I let you have this car at this price."
"Trust me"
...

Yep, I believed them lock, stock, and barrel. I paid $20,000 more for my new car than anybody else, too.

I grew up in the car business & worked in new & used car sales for 3 yrs.

Know the car market for the model youre looking at. Determine your price and then check the car out. Once you sit down with the salesman make an offer $500-$800 below what you are willing to pay and write a check for the amount you intend to put down. You now have the salesman's attention. He will do everything he can to keep that check. Be friendly & compromise letting him work you up to the price youre wishing to pay. If he doesnt -get up and leave. The salesman just might call you later with a counter offer. If not and you really like the car, call back in 4 or 5 days and raise your offer a little.

Keep in mind youre dealing with a professional, he talks to several people like you every day. You cant beat him at his own game unless he lets you.

Sorry, but this is a terrible idea and has been discredited on this forum multiple times. The worst thing to do is what you mentioned, sit on a dealership and try to negotiate with them. Also, there's no good way for a buyer to determine "a price" that is good, because of holdback and and incentives that the dealer may have with a manufacturer.

The best way to beat them is described in this post viewtopic.php?t=124638 , i.e. finding the car you want at multiple dealers and forcing their internet sales dept to bid against each other.

Multiple people on that thread and also others who have pm'ed me have used this strategy to get rock-bottom prices.

Last edited by denovo on Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

Most of the dealers in our area have changed to "no haggle" pricing. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

We have been in the market for a 2016 or 2017 Ford Fusion Energi for a month or so. I use Cargurus.com and check the landscape.

Probably a $6k price difference for a 2017 with ~20k miles. Wide range.

A local "no haggle" shop had one we liked ~3 weeks ago for $23,999. At this price I wasn't interested. The MSRP was $42k. Invoice about $40k when new.

Within 2 weeks the price went to $22,999. $21,999, 20,999 and last week $19,999. $4k lower in 2 weeks.

No haggle + No sell = Price is going down. The hard part is you have to wait and be patient and if a car sells, move on.

Personally, I don't like "no haggle" but I understand it. Takes the pressure off on both sides. This is our "best" price (at this moment).

Buying a used car is fairly easy if you understand the market. Haggle or no haggle is completely irrelevant. 1) Find the car you want on the used car lot and test drive it to verify you like it and want it. 2) Verify that it is actually available from the sales person, write down the car's VIN and mileage, and then let them know you may be contacting them and leave the premises. Under no circumstances should you negotiate on premises. 3) Call the sales person and politely make a fair offer for the vehicle that is bottom line cost - that means your offer is the total drive out price with only local sales tax (avg range 5-9%), tag (avg $60) and title (avg $50) fees to be added. If sales person talks about any other added fees tell them very specifically that they can make other fees anything they want as long as they adjust the car price so that the bottom line total (drive out cost) matches your offer to the penny. Do not discuss fees as it is a sucker move and completely irrelevant to total drive out cost. When you make the call also send an email with that offer with text stating offer is only good until you find a car and purchase a car and that you are actively shopping multiple other dealers (even if you are not).

4) Tell sales person you are actively shopping other sources for a car (but absolutely don't reveal anything about that - not what, where, or who) - if they ask reply that information is private. Let them know if they (and their manager) decide they can sell that specific car (identified in writing by VIN and mileage) for your offer price to call you back. If they feel the price is too low for them, that's fine, tell them good luck and do not call you back unless they accept the offer.

Then wait and be very patient. If that dealer can sell that car to anyone else for even a dollar more they will do so, but if a few days go by and they get nervous, impatient, etc. they might call you back and take the offer.

5) If they call and say they take the offer tell them to send you an email invoice with total drive out price (plus exact tax, tag and title fees) so you can get a check for that exact amount. Tell them if the total amount is even a penny different when you go to pick up the car, you walk out and they permanently lose your business.

Be polite, firm but friendly. Buying a car is fundamentally an impersonal business transaction, and there is no reason to treat it as anything else. btw - what the dealer paid for the car, how many cars they sold that day or week, how much profit or loss they will earn on your sale, etc . - all of it is completely irrelevant to your transaction.

To do this you have to not really want the car, which is what makes buying used and new different.

Sorry but that is simply not true. Buying a new versus buying a used car is the exact same transaction. It is always about demand versus supply. Dealers have cars (new or used) and they are depreciating costly assets. In most cases the dealer has a car loan on every car sitting on their lot and payments are due every month. They want to sell these assets as quickly as possible to lower their holding cost and to make a profit (if demand is there for that specific model) by selling above their cost. If lots of buyers want that specific year and model, they can sell as high as possible. If few buyers or no one wants that specific year and model they will sell even at a loss to get rid of it and minimize carry and holding costs. You make an offer on a commodity item and the seller decides if they can make a profit or minimize loss on the car at the offer price. It is as simple as that but so few people actually understand the business and the sellers deliberately try to confuse and obfuscate what is really going on.

You can buy a car at a fair price and do it as a pure business transaction or you can play the dealer's game as a sucker.

You can fall in love with the specific new or used car that you want to buy but you simply don't let the seller in on that information unless you want to over pay for it. For a specific car that is rare, or in high demand a buyer will likely not get a discount and will instead pay whatever market rate is at - nothing wrong with that as long as the person understands what they are doing to get the "in demand" car.

Of course the dealer will lie and tell a buyer that every car on their lot is hot and in demand. Always fun to ask the salesperson how long the car has been on the lot and if it was moved there from another lot. Many high volume dealers send a car to the auction after 30 days on the lot. Knowing a car is about to go to auction allows you to offer just above average wholesale on the car and likely get it.

You've completely missed the point. There is exactly one used car on the planet exactly like the one sitting in front of you. If you employ your tactics, you stand a chance of not being able to purchase it. There are no do-overs. This happened to me a couple of weeks ago - not with a car, but with a used product that was essentially unique. I wanted the specific combination of features that that product had, but I tried to employ some negotiating tactics and... someone else apparently didn't employ the same techniques, and now owns that product. It was not a popular or especially desirable product generally, which is what I was counting on - in fact only two people might have wanted it, but it only takes one other person.

I grew up in the car business & worked in new & used car sales for 3 yrs.

Know the car market for the model youre looking at. Determine your price and then check the car out. [...]

Sorry, but this is a terrible idea and has been discredited on this forum multiple times. The worst thing to do is what you mentioned, sit on a dealership and try to negotiate with them. Also, there's no good way for a buyer to determine "a price" that is good, because of holdback and different incentives, holdbacks, and incentives that the dealer may have with a manufacturer.

The best way to beat them is described in this post viewtopic.php?t=124638 , i.e. finding the car you want at multiple dealers and forcing their internet sales dept to bid against each other.

Multiple people on that thread and also others who have pm'ed me have used this strategy to get rock-bottom prices.

I have highlighted the hard part of Jim Beaux's idea, but I do think that his idea is OK if one has determined the price ahead of time that the dealer will sell the car for and that is good. The problem is how to determine that price which Jim Beaux glossed over.

There are many ways to determine the lowest possible price that the seller will sell the car for. One of those ways is the link given by denovo. There are other ways. But one doesn't have "to beat them" where "them" is the dealer. That is, one should be satisfied with a fair deal.

Another way to determine a good, fair price is to find on the internet a large number of OTD prices paid for the the car you want. In general, people will not post bad deals because they are ashamed, but will post good prices that they received. A good example of this is searching on "Outback OTD" and seeing all the prices paid. It can be like buying a TV or other appliance where sellers will price match the lowest price you can find anywhere on the internet.

The problem is how to determine that price which Jim Beaux glossed over. [denovo-agreed]

There are other ways. But one doesn't have "to beat them" where "them" is the dealer. That is, one should be satisfied with a fair deal.

Another way to determine a good, fair price is to find on the internet a large number of OTD prices paid for the the car you want. In general, people will not post bad deals because they are ashamed, but will post good prices that they received. A good example of this is searching on "Outback OTD" and seeing all the prices paid. It can be like buying a TV or other appliance where sellers will price match the lowest price you can find anywhere on the internet.

I should be very precise, I shouldn't have used the term 'beat the dealer'. I want the lowest price possible using all legal means available to me. I don't know if that's "fair" or "good" (those are terms you used that I underlined) and that's not my concern as a buyer, nor should it be yours. The only way you can get the lowest price is to cast a wide net among the dealers and get them to bid each other down.

I am not a fan of checking a forum as a form of price discovery. I can imagine a number of problems.

1. You are searching for "Outback OTD" on a Subaru Forum the first week of August and you see a bunch of posts with prices from July. But lo and behold, Subaru upped the rebate available to dealers on that car August 1st from $500 to $1,500. You should be able to get a better deal.
2. You are unlucky and you live in a state with the highest sales tax and license fees. Your not going to get the same OTD price , all other beings equal, using the same negotiation tactic as someone in a low sales tax state.
3. There are some individual-specific rebates from the manufacturer that can cut price of the car that may be applicable to you but not a lot of the posters, think recent college grads, specific professions, trading in a vehicle from a different manufacturer.
4. Cars have various models with different option configurations. Unless people are being precise with the MSRP and posting the window sticker, you may be comparing apples and oranges.
5. You may get lucky and a specific dealer in your area is racing to hit a quota to get a bonus from the manufacturer and is willing to sell you the car at a bargain price.

^I agree with all the statements you made. All of those points have to be taken into account when one is doing price discovery.

I can nitpick as well and state that by making dealers compete with each other, many of those same things apply.

For instance, maybe one only had 4 dealers respond within a specific geographic area and the lower price is available 50 miles outside the net that one cast. And your #5 certainly applies, "5. You may get lucky ...."

Or maybe going into a dealer saves one some time waiting for responses. One's presence and willingness to negotiate is quite a powerful message I would think. Of course, one had better have a decent knowledge base before doing that.

I grew up in the car business & worked in new & used car sales for 3 yrs.

Know the car market for the model youre looking at. Determine your price and then check the car out. Once you sit down with the salesman make an offer $500-$800 below what you are willing to pay and write a check for the amount you intend to put down. You now have the salesman's attention. He will do everything he can to keep that check. Be friendly & compromise letting him work you up to the price youre wishing to pay. If he doesnt -get up and leave. The salesman just might call you later with a counter offer. If not and you really like the car, call back in 4 or 5 days and raise your offer a little.

Keep in mind youre dealing with a professional, he talks to several people like you every day. You cant beat him at his own game unless he lets you.

Sorry, but this is a terrible idea and has been discredited on this forum multiple times. The worst thing to do is what you mentioned, sit on a dealership and try to negotiate with them. Also, there's no good way for a buyer to determine "a price" that is good, because of holdback and and incentives that the dealer may have with a manufacturer.

The best way to beat them is described in this post viewtopic.php?t=124638 , i.e. finding the car you want at multiple dealers and forcing their internet sales dept to bid against each other.

Multiple people on that thread and also others who have pm'ed me have used this strategy to get rock-bottom prices.

Whatever floats your boat sailor. First, you wont beat them and second, there is no hold back or manufacturer incentives on a used vehicle.

I grew up in the car business & worked in new & used car sales for 3 yrs.

Know the car market for the model youre looking at. Determine your price and then check the car out. [...]

Sorry, but this is a terrible idea and has been discredited on this forum multiple times. The worst thing to do is what you mentioned, sit on a dealership and try to negotiate with them. Also, there's no good way for a buyer to determine "a price" that is good, because of holdback and different incentives, holdbacks, and incentives that the dealer may have with a manufacturer.

The best way to beat them is described in this post viewtopic.php?t=124638 , i.e. finding the car you want at multiple dealers and forcing their internet sales dept to bid against each other.

Multiple people on that thread and also others who have pm'ed me have used this strategy to get rock-bottom prices.

I have highlighted the hard part of Jim Beaux's idea, but I do think that his idea is OK if one has determined the price ahead of time that the dealer will sell the car for and that is good. The problem is how to determine that price which Jim Beaux glossed over.

There are many ways to determine the lowest possible price that the seller will sell the car for. One of those ways is the link given by denovo. There are other ways. But one doesn't have "to beat them" where "them" is the dealer. That is, one should be satisfied with a fair deal.

Another way to determine a good, fair price is to find on the internet a large number of OTD prices paid for the the car you want. In general, people will not post bad deals because they are ashamed, but will post good prices that they received. A good example of this is searching on "Outback OTD" and seeing all the prices paid. It can be like buying a TV or other appliance where sellers will price match the lowest price you can find anywhere on the internet.

I didnt mean to "gloss over" determining the price. Refer to Kelly Book or NADA Blue Book-these books wont give you the magic answer but will give you a fair idea. Assume you want to buy a used F150 Supercab- check the internet, the fore mentioned books and visit your credit union or bank and ask them what the loan value on that particular model is. Then walk the used car lots and check the going prices. Be prepared for the probability of being low balled.

Also check the cities 100 miles away. Years ago Monte Carlos were the hot item in Houston while Vettes were in demand elsewhere. You couldnt get a deal on a Monte Carlo in Houston.

Once I have a handle on what is out there, I will make an offer just under loan value. Its a game of friendly persistence. Make friends with the sales people.

For used cars I have a friend who has a dealers license and he goes to auctions and buys for me. For new cars I find the car I want with options and email internet departments within 100 miles and play them off each other.

I will say on used cars you can never “beat” the dealer as you have no way to tell how much they have into a car. But you can find a “fair” price for a used car based on various internet sites.

Wish I was smart about buying my first car. I over payed and have an insane 12% interest rate on a $18k loan. If anything, this was a learning lesson and the salesman was good at getting me. BTW it's a 2013 Honda civic Si I could've payed 12k (30k miles) for honestly. Also, consider seriously checking out dings, dents, and obviously if it was leased or from auction. I'm just grateful I'm not 100k in debt in student loans making $15/hour...that's when I'd be scared.