For Cicely Tyson and Kerry Washington, Roles of a Lifetime

‘My mother did not speak to me for two years. Refused to see me, refused to speak to me.’ Cicely Tyson (right)‘Race is a very big part of who Olivia Pope is, but it’s not dealt with in an obvious way.’ Kerry Washington (left)Credit
Robert Caplin for The New York Times

It was the meal where nobody ate. On a recent Sunday morning, Cicely Tyson and Kerry Washington — one an Oscar nominee in 1972 for “Sounder” and a Tony Award winner this year for “A Trip to Bountiful” (which ends its Broadway run Oct. 9), the other a 2013 Emmy nominee for “Scandal” and a newlywed after her marriage this summer to the San Francisco 49ers cornerback Nnamdi Asomugha — met for brunch in the dining room of the Carlyle Hotel on the Upper East Side. As soon as Miss Tyson entered the room and greeted Ms. Washington with a tight embrace and the words “Don’t get up, don’t you dare get up” to their third table companion, the two began an animated, breakneck conversation about race, role models, overcoming parental disapproval and why Olivia Pope wears so much white.

As the gathering broke up about an hour later, with Miss Tyson heading to the theater for that day’s matinee and Ms. Washington off to another engagement, it suddenly became clear that brunch had passed without any actual food being served: a bottle of Pellegrino for the table and a cup of hot water and lemon for Ms. Washington.

On the way out, the maître d’ was asked why no one had come by to offer food (or even menus) to this table of three. He replied: ““Whatever you had going on, I didn’t want to interrupt it.”

Philip Galanes: I’m sensing from the hugs that this is not the first time you are meeting each other.

CT: Well, of course, I was familiar with Kerry’s work, “The Last King of Scotland” and “Ray,” which tore me to pieces. But I really got to know her when I was honored with the Spingarn Medal by the N.A.A.C.P. I was concerned about who would present it to me. So I went down the whole list of talented and socially conscious young ladies I had known over the years. And someone I am very close to said, “Ask Kerry.” And the next thing I know, Kerry is giving me one of the most incredible introductions I have had in my entire career. I sat there with my mouth wide open because it was so clear that she had done her homework. Ever since then, Kerry has been in my pocket.

KW: It’s where I love to live, in Miss Tyson’s pocket.

PG: Let’s start with a comparison of your work, or maybe a comparison of the times. The roles you played in the ’70s, Miss Tyson — in “Sounder,” “The Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman,” “Roots” — were really the first time that white audiences were willing to look at the history of slavery and reconstruction — —

CT: And blacks in America, in general.

PG: Those movies were about race in a way that movies today rarely are. Did you know the significance of what you were doing when you were doing it? That my whole school would watch “The Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman” in the auditorium?

KW: Lucky you!

CT: I set a standard for myself. Because when I was on the road, promoting “Sounder,” I encountered things about this country that I was not aware of, as far as blacks were concerned.

PG: Things were worse than you imagined?

CT: I saw that I could not afford the luxury of just being an actress. So I made a choice to use my career as a platform to address the issues of the race I was born into.

PG: Can you give me an example?

CT: I was at a press conference in Philadelphia, and a gentleman stood up and said: “This movie showed me a bigotry in myself that I didn’t know I had — when the older son calls his father ‘Daddy’ .” I asked whether he had children. He did. But his problem was accepting that a little black boy was calling a black man “Daddy,” the same as his children were calling him. That floored me.

KW: But what beautiful honesty, courageous honesty.

CT: Yes, I applauded him because it took a lot to stand up and say that in a crowd of his peers.

PG: Of course, Kerry, you’re too young to have seen these films when they came out. Have you seen them since?

KW: Of course! I watched them with my parents on VHS. Miss Tyson has always been someone whose career I’ve been drawn to. What’s most exciting to me, as an actor, is that we empower people to be compassionate in ways that they might never expect. When we step into someone else’s shoes, as actors, we allow the audience a window into a world they might normally ignore.

PG: I can be kinder for seeing something you’ve shown me?

KW: You can participate. As a white man, you could spend your entire life never really thinking about the inner life of a black woman. Art allows you a window in.

PG: One of the most intriguing things about “Scandal,” in which you play Olivia Pope, the fastest-talking alpha woman on TV, is that the show barely mentions race, even though you’re the first woman of color to lead a network drama in 40 years. Is that progress?

KW: No. Well, maybe in some ways. Race is a very big part of who Olivia Pope is, but it’s not dealt with in an obvious way. Maybe we’ve moved in a direction where we can have a wider range of how we approach race — not that we’re in any post-racial cultural moment.

PG: Can I just say that “race blind” may be the silliest expression the Supreme Court ever invented?

KW: I don’t want to be race blind or gender blind. They matter!

CT: The first time I read it, I thought: I have no idea what that expression means.

Photo

‘When I was on the road, promoting “Sounder,” I encountered things about this country that I was not aware of, as far as blacks were concerned.’ Cicely Tyson (right)

‘If you don’t have a strong sense of who you are, it’s hard to build a character. So I’ve learned to hold onto a sense of myself and keep it private.’ Kerry Washington (left)Credit
Robert Caplin for The New York Times

PG: What did you think of Lee Daniels’s new film, “The Butler”? It’s a bit of a throwback to those ’70s movies about race, no?

CT: I don’t think it has anything to do with race. It’s the story of a man’s life, set in the White House, because that’s where he spent most of his days. He just happens to be black.

KW: I think this is where the progress is. It used to be that the subject of a piece was race itself, and we’re moving in a direction where the subject is the human being, and we bring in race or gender to build the character.

PG: What about “Django Unchained,” the Quentin Tarantino film in which you co-starred? A revisionist, highbrow take on the violent blaxploitation pictures that — —

KW: It’s unfortunate that so many people see Django as revisionist. I think it has to do with the lack of education around rebel slaves in this country, people who fought back and waged war for freedom by any means necessary. If you look at a story like “Nat Turner,” you know that “Django” isn’t really revisionist. We just aren’t taught those stories.

PG: Miss Tyson, when blaxploitation films were at their pinnacle in the 1970s, were you offered one a week, two a week?

CT: I was. And how many have you seen me in?

PG: None that I can remember.

CT: Not one.

PG: Let me ask you the shallowest question you will be asked today. Miss Tyson, you’ve been costumed in tatters and ‘do rags for about 87 percent of your roles. Did you ever wish for ball gowns?

CT: Well, I got them at the openings. For “Sounder,” I went to my stylist at the time [Bill Whitten, who also created Michael Jackson’s white glove] and asked for a gown that the character in the movie would wear, if she had the wherewithal. And he found all these old cottons from the South and pieced them together, and he picked some cotton from the field and used it as a corsage. It was breathtaking.

PG: Meanwhile, Kerry, you get the chicest wardrobe on TV. I’ve stopped counting the number of articles on Olivia’s white pants. Is all that attention justified, in terms of the character, or is fashion just fun?

KW: Oh no, the aesthetic of Olivia Pope is very thought through. Even when we do flashback episodes, when she worked at the White House. Then, she’s mostly dressed in Michael Kors and Ralph Lauren because you have to wear American designers when you work in the White House. But now that she works on her own, it’s a lot of Dior and Ferragamo and Gucci. Now she can wear European designers.

KW: We decided very early on that Olivia wears the pants, literally and figuratively, and I work very closely with Lyn Paolo, our costume designer.

PG: So, the clothes aren’t something you simply put on?

KW: Even the palette is somewhat metaphorical. There was dialogue early on about Olivia wearing the white hat, and so I wanted to have her in white as a symbol of justice. But there’s something else, too: that palette of whites and creams, it looks different on a woman of color, and that hadn’t been seen before. There’s a way that I can wear white that somebody with a fairer skin tone can’t, so I take advantage of that. There’s even an emotional component to it: Olivia will not wear white when she is not the person who is just. She only wears white when she’s wearing the white hat.

PG: You’ve had some amazing film roles. Was it a hard decision to take on “Scandal,” knowing you’d be less available for film?

KW: When you read something extraordinary, when you read “Sounder,” for instance, you just say, “This role is the opportunity of a lifetime.” I had that experience when I read the pilot episode of “Scandal.” I’d never seen a woman like this on television before. And I wasn’t even thinking about race or the fact that I’d never seen an African-American woman as the lead of her own network show, but I knew that this smart, sophisticated, powerful and vulnerable woman was a tremendous opportunity.

CT: The same thing happens to me when I read a script: either my skin tingles or my stomach churns. When it tingles, I take it, and when my stomach churns, there’s no way I could possibly do it. No way. I would end up on a psychiatrist’s couch, and he would get all the money.

PG: Let’s shift gears for a second — to something you both have in common. Neither of you speak publicly about your personal lives, which makes you rare creatures in the celebrity world.

KW: Miss Tyson and I just had a conversation about this.

CT: I am very protective of my family. I chose this business, they did not. And I never felt it was right to deprive them of their private lives. I have a nephew. I have many nephews. And I remember once, when he was very little, he was watching me on TV — looking at the television, looking at me — and finally saying: “What’s Aunt BooBoo doing in the television?” And I’ve seen what happens to the children of people in public professions. It’s very hard to get out of their shadows. Their lives are difficult.

PG: Are you an Aunt BooBoo, too, Kerry? Is that what makes you private?

KW: Let me say it like this. There have to be some boundaries to maintain your artistry. If you don’t have a strong sense of who you are, it’s hard to build a character. So I’ve learned to hold on to a sense of myself and keep it private.

PG: Even when people are hyperventilating to get pictures of you in your wedding dress?

KW: Even then. It’s so important that at home, I can just be me.

Photo

Kerry Washington in "Scandal."Credit
Vivian Zink/Abc

PG: Another thing you have in common? None of your parents wanted you to be actors.

KW: My mother was devastated.

CT: Mine, too.

PG: So, in segregated America, in 1950, what did your parents want you to do instead of “Sounder”?

KW: Who knew “Sounder” was going to happen?

CT: Exactly! Well, my mother was an introvert and quite religious. And we were brought up in the church. And when she learned that I wanted to act, she simply said: “You cannot live here and do that.”

PG: She threw you out of the house?

CT: Oh, yeah. I didn’t say anything to her, but I made up my mind that acting was something I had to do for myself, so I found another place to live. My mother did not speak to me for two years. Refused to see me, refused to speak to me. And when I did my first play, an amateur production of “Dark of the Moon” at the Y in Harlem, I had the audacity to call my mother and invite her to come. And she did. And the moment I walked onstage, she thought she was whispering, but she said, “Oh, my God!” and I heard her clear as day. And when it was all over, my mother was standing at the exit, accepting congratulations. Can you imagine?

KW: Wow, what a great story.

PG: And 50 years later, you and your parents go through the same dynamic?

KW: By the way, they had the same kind of turnaround, too. I was at a dinner last night, and my parents were sitting in the corner, warmly accepting congratulatory remarks. But at the time, my mother, who is a retired professor of education, and my father, who is a businessman, wanted me to go into a career that had some security. They did not want me to be a starving artist. I’m an only child. They were devastated by the idea that I might not be able to take care of myself and earn a living.

PG: Plus, you went to Spence. You probably could have done anything.

KW: I was a child of an educator, and I was really encouraged to pursue my academics. And I think it’s allowed me to be a better actor because I approach my work as a social scientist. So I’m very grateful that my parents insisted.

PG: You’re also savvy in the sociology of social media. The live-tweeting that the entire cast does during episodes of “Scandal,” which was your idea, has been impressive.

KW: Yes, we’re interacting with fans while they’re watching the show.

PG: Two hundred thousand tweets per episode. But do you know something? When I was screening “Sounder” last night, the idea of typing was inconceivable to me. Does it bother you that you’re pulling attention that way?

KW: I think people engage with media now in a multitasking way. There’s something sacred and wonderful about sitting in a theater and turning off your phone and being very present, but I also think that people are used to this kind of hyper-stimulation now, which is why it works.

PG: Speaking of the sacred space of the theater, let’s turn to Miss Tyson’s performance in “The Trip to Bountiful.”

KW: It’s a life-changer seeing you on that stage.

PG: And it’s a good play. Why do you think it’s performed so little?

CT: I didn’t know the play. I went to see Geraldine Page in the movie [in 1985]. And when I left the theater, I went directly to my agent and said, “You get me my ‘Trip to Bountiful’ and I will retire.”

PG: You said that on the Tony Awards, but I don’t believe it for a second.

CT: Wait a minute. I wasn’t even thinking about “The Trip to Bountiful.” I just wanted one more good role. Then, years later, a friend asked me to meet with a woman, who told me that she had one of her father’s plays, and she wanted to do it with a black cast. She said, “I know my father had tremendous respect for you, and wouldn’t want anyone else to do it.” So, finally, I say: “Who was your father?” And she tells me: Horton Foote! It was Hallie Foote, and the play was “The Trip to Bountiful.” I almost fell off the chair.

PG: So we’re all agreed. Perhaps something for Miss Tyson on “Scandal,” which is about to start its third season? I know you won’t give away any spoilers, but tell us something Olivia will wear in the opening episode. That can be our scoop.

KW: Look out for a white Burberry trench at a very dramatic moment.

PG: Kerry, your people are about to remove you forcibly from this table.

KW: I’m so sorry. The only thing that could tear me away is that I’m going to a rally for my cousin, Milly Silva, who’s running for lieutenant governor of New Jersey [on the Democratic ticket with State Senator Barbara Buono]. It’s only the third time in the history of this country that an all-female ticket has run, so I’m staying engaged.

CT: Bless you, my angel. And pace yourself.

This interview has been condensed and edited.

A version of this article appears in print on September 29, 2013, on page ST1 of the New York edition with the headline: Roles of a Lifetime. Order Reprints|Today's Paper|Subscribe