It starts off with a little boy getting a lesson in “evolution” from his mother. This version of evolution has nothing to do with what biologists teach, of course — it’s bizarrely teleological, with everything striving towards becoming human.

After having evolution explained to him, the little boy turns into an “atheist” (one who’s planning to become a god — Chick isn’t quite clear on what the whole atheism thing means), and it all means you get to be as evil as you want.

There’s the usual stereotypical Chick interlude where a cute little girl tells the little boy all about Jesus. These stories go one of two ways: the boy can find Jesus and go to heaven, or he can reject the message and be horribly punished. Guess which way this tract ends?

This is so awfully, horribly bad that I must get my hands on a print copy.

It’s hilarious that he starts the comic by pointing out the argument from authority as a lame reason to believe in evolution, then in the end Jesus says, “You heard the argument from authority to be Christian and ignored it! To hell with you!” (I’m paraphrasing)

I tried keeping count of the scientific inaccuracies, non sequitors, and outright lies, but lost count somewhere along the way (although my favorite is the “EVOLUTION” poster with the dinosaur, the spear-toting caveman, and the word “Darwin” at the bottom; just trying to figure out what that has to do with evolution makes my head a splode). Yipes.

On second thought, “losing our tails” being “the greatest event of all time” is also pretty funny.

Aw, hell, the whole damn thing’s pretty funny. How do you make fun of people who take such goofy things seriously?

Imagine the thousands of kids that will read this and believe it. Then they grow into adults that believe it. Fanatical Christians are misrepresenting and scapegoating us atheists in the same way that they misrepresented and scapegoated Jews for centuries. These cartoons might seem light-hearted, but they can breed a climate which is conducive to violence.

Not that they would listen to us if we tried to correct them. They might listen to moderate Christians if they were to speak out, but they seem generally content to remain silent. I wonder why.

It’s a classic and it’s racist. Chick shows his hand when the boy-who-would-be-god says, “My hair is blond and I have blue eyes. So… I’m above all others. I’m part of the master race.” It’s as if Chick assumes evolutionary theory says something about the superiority of blond hair and blue eyes over say, myriad colored scales and compound eyes. What gives? Is this what Chick believes? Does he think it’s only Christian faith that is stopping the slaughter of all non-whites? I think he does. I think he’s saying that without Jesus all those inferior people would be well screwed. The man is scum for far more than his religious beliefs.

How sad is it that the boy’s crime isn’t the bad things he did refusing to live a moral life, but that he didn’t believe in something?

As an aside, while growing up I always found it was the christians who needed morality to be defined and explained for them, not the skeptics. When you are responsible for your actions and not in possession of a get-out-of-jail-free dunking, the rightness and wrongness of your actions take on a wee bit greater importance.

I can kinda relate to the kid. When evangelicals come up to me like Cathy did in the comic and tell me I’m a dirty sinner who is going to hell, I get a little pissed. I don’t think I’m a god, but I do think I’m not worthless, sinful trash. I don’t know why that upsets them so much.

My personal favorite part is the “It’s in all our school books so it must be true” line. I’d ask if they really don’t get that the line can be more effectively attached to them for believing that it’s in a single book (okay, a collection of books handily bound and near exclusively distributed as one) with no corroborating evidence and much counter-evidence, but obviously they don’t. Anyway, it’s all okay because they feel it in their hearts that their sacred book is true.

Seven panels down, box on the right side, where the mom says “Our religion is called evolution”:

Is it me or does it look like the little guy with the spear is labeled Darwin? Ah yes, evolution. The theory that says millions of years ago a caveman named Darwin killed hundreds of palm tree loving dinosaurs with his legendary spear throwing abilities. Who are the ones who claim people and dinosaurs lived at the same time anyway?

When I was 8 years old, my Dad’s barber placed a whole rack of these in his shop. I was encouraged to read them and ended up believing them. I at first believed them, then they scared me so much I couldn’t sleep for nights. I finally grew out of them, but I can still recall the utter terror of the lake of fire in those tracts.
These tracts are dangerous to the minds of kids

I find it quite encouraging, actually, where the narrator says “the land began to call us . . . and we grew legs.” For me, it’s the stars that call. Now I can look forward to acquiring the abilities to fly at near-lightspeed and to survive hard vacuum and extremes of temperature and radiation for decades at a time. (That is the way evolution works, isn’t it? Anyone? Anyone?)

My eight year old thought this was pretty funny. He liked the evil dog and monkey the most. And the idea that someone who doesn’t believe in gods would try to become one was pretty entertaining for us both.

They probably sell most of their tracts as bundles of multiple copies of the same comic so “Christians can Witness” by sticking them in public places and running away. An odd form of “witnessing”, but I have never come across an active proselytizer passing out Chick Tracts.

If you are a comic collector and don’t want to hunt for Chick Tracts scattered around in public (best hunting is after an event holy-rollers would find distasteful such as a gay pride parade or pro-choice march), they say they sell individual copies for 15’ each.
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Wow. I was not familiar with Jack Chick, and when looking at the panels in this blog, thought, “Well, this is a kind of funny little satire of IDiocy.”

Then I clicked through to the full comic/tract (and boy, is it long) and saw their site, and realized that they aren’t being sarcastic.

Poe’s Law strikes again….

I also love the “progression” from “tiny dots in goo” to “polywogs in water”. WTF? Where do they even get this from? Though their teleological view of evolution as leading towards man (no doubt derived from the anthropocentric theology of their own religion) does begin to explain why IDiots often ask “why do we still have monkeys” and the like.

What I find most unbelievable about Chick tracts is that the main characters seem never to have heard of the possibility they might go to hell or that Jesus could save them. The tracts present the idea that everyone lost in sin is lost because they never even once heard the message of the gospel.

Get real! How could you live in contemporary America without having heard the message you’ll go to hell if you don’t accept the redeeming power of Jesus at least hundreds of times?

Of course, in some of the tracts, such as this one, the sinner hears the message only once, rejects it, and then we get to see him cast into the lake of fire.

The main problem with Christanity is the central doctrine of sin and redemption. The common analogy is debt. Suppose someone owes me money, but cannot repay me. If someone else comes along and pays me the amount owed and asks me to firgive the debt, I’m cool; I got my money back. But offense is not like debt. If someone has wronged me, there is no other person who can offer apology and restituition. I can get what I desire only from the person who wronged me.

So if sin is an offense against God, it is impossible that some third party could ever fix things. Sure, a third party may act as a negotiator, but that third party could never really “pay the price” for another’s wrongdoing

That’s just how religious people think. They think the reason you aren’t a Christian is because you’ve never heard of it, or haven’t really heard of it. It just makes so much sense to them, there is no other way for them.

This brings back memories. I remember deciding at thirteen that there were no gods, or at least none like my fundamentalist church imagined. I did give some consideration to moral behavior – why *would we act morally if we weren’t terrified of eternal torture? Obviously we *were a moral species; I decided that as a social animal, moral behavior must have some reproductive benefits. Therefore, to show to myself (if not others) that I was better than those loons in church, (by being fitter by the standards of our species) I was determined to be more moral than they. So, atheist pride + simple evolutionary science = morality. At least in my case. Of course, these folks wouldn’t have considered anyone comfortable with miscegnation, polymorphous sexuality, strong women, or boogie woogie, to be moral. Thinking about it, I only ended up having two kids, while many of those goofballs had a half dozen or more, so I guess the joke’s on me!

I assure any doubters that there indeed are tens of millions of people who think very much like these cartoon archetypes in Jack Chick comics.

People who believe we “evolved from monkeys” probably shouldn’t get a good grade in biology class, but a lake of fire seems a little harsh. I think PZ only throws his failing students in a tank with flesh-eating cephalopods; it’s over quickly and mercifully.

I do have to give credit where credit’s due…I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a clear demonstration of how absurd the God-saves-by-torturing-his-son belief is than while when arrogant-Xian-girl is explaining Xianity to the arrogant-autotheist-boy (panels 13-17). They may make a straw man of evolutionary theory by distorting the facts and their scientific interpretation, but they also make a straw man of their own religious belief by honestly representing their interpretation of the bible.

We’ve heard these strawman versions of evolution a million times before, of course, but I can never figure out if they’re being intentionally deceptive or if they actually think that’s what biologists believe.

Also, is it just me, or is Chick’s artwork getting worse? Not that it was ever very good in the first place.

Wasn’t there some pathetic creo you tube movie where a guy dies and then, when faced with hell, cries out as to why his friends never told him about Jesus…it was really ridiculous. Anybody know what video I’m talking about?

They probably sell most of their tracts as bundles of multiple copies of the same comic so “Christians can Witness” by sticking them in public places and running away. An odd form of “witnessing”, but I have never come across an active proselytizer passing out Chick Tracts.

That’s a damn good point. There does seem to be an element of cowardice to the “witnessing” Chick fans do. I’ve never met a Chickian either, not live and in person — just dealt with their odious scat.

How many dead people are there anyways? Not billions. I’ve heard before that “there are more people alive than have ever died”. Anyone know if that’s still true? Of course a well placed comet would end all that.

I think the ethical slide is much slipperier when you posit a final judgement that is so easy to pass (accept Jesus!), regardless of your behaviour (everything can be forgiven!) than when you are expected to judge yourself. Consequently, the kid’s sudden mercenary ethics strike me as more plausibly a result of Christianity than atheism.

A Baptist church had a stand at our local fair last year and put out a bunch of Chick tracts. I knew about their existence from a friend, who sent me the online link, but my brother and I still harvested dozens of the best ones every time there wasn’t anyone looking. Then we laughed at them and made fun of them every way we could. They didn’t have any good evolution ones then, though…I must have this.

Yes, Chick hates Catholics. He’s written at least three anti-Cath tracts, with one claiming that all American Catholics are citizens of both Vatican City and the US. I was baptized, communicated, and confirmed Catholic. I want my right of return to Vatican City, dammit!

The only thing more pathetic than the fact that they’re throwing people into a “lake of fire” for what they believe, while claiming to be moral, is the evolution straw man they make. Seriously, how ignorant and stupid can a person get?

I really can’t tell: Is this comic a commentary on the evils of evolution, or the evils of “The Jeffersons?” I mean, the second panel even paraphrases the theme song. The child = George. The child aspires to be God = George buys his fifth dry cleaning store. The child rejects all morals and ends up thrown into a fiery Hell = George tosses Tom and Helen Willis out of his apartment and ends up getting trapped in an elevator with Mr. Bentley and Florence.

I assume the other two fish in the first panel are Archie and Edith bunker.

The famous anti-evolution Chick tract is called “Big Daddy”, and has the usual Madlibs Jack Chick recipe:

First, start with one arrogant, Jewish-looking, atheist college professor. Add in one tall, blond, Aryan fundy Student to stand up and argue with him about evolution, and stir. Brown shirt on student is optional. Sprinkle liberally with Bible verses and bake for half the time.

71 comments and not a single reference to Death Note. I really must be out of my element here …

#81, wanting to “become a god” isn’t something unique to Light, so it’s not surprising no one would reference it. Besides, the series is more about writing people’s names in a notebook and having them die than Light actually becoming a god, so not many people would think of it.

Get your projection, racism and hypocrisy in one neat little package. Don’t be fooled by imitations. This is the original.
Act now and you will receive all the hate you can convey, too!
Get a passive aggressive gift basket for the death cult holidays and save. Supplies aren’t limited but hurry anyway.

I have never come across an active proselytizer passing out Chick Tracts.

I should be so lucky; they used to sing Xian rock outside the Uncle Albert’s on Whyte Avenue on Friday nights in the early 90s. My friend and I, being mild-mannered rabble rousers, would talk with them for a bit before hitting the coffee shop and caffinating ourselves into tachycardia. Every one of them admitted to being junkies prior to their conversion, and their assumption was that everybody not saved was one too.

I do remember learning a lot of heroin-user lingo from one of their tracts though. Odd to think that I learned what ‘freebasing’, ‘skin-popping’, and ‘main-lining’ were from fundies. (Also odd that such an education didn’t immediately impell me find a syringe–unlike sex ed in school, after which I immediately went out and had sex with 230,402,457?1 girls and contracted 232,582,657?1 STIs since we’re only animals.)

If you look at some of the older tracts concerning evolution, the evil evolution scientists look disturbingly like stereotypical caricatures of Jews.

Yeah. Along these lines, revisiting the ADL thread, we have a comment from jeff in which he said, of reading a Richard Evans’ “The Coming of the Third Reich”:

In this case, as I was shocked to learn, a huge fraction of Germans after WW-I sincerely believed that Germany DID NOT LOSE THE WAR. Since they could not have lost, it must therefore be the case that someone stabbed them in the back, threw in the towel for their own personal profit. And who was shifty, greedy, corrupt, and immoral enough to do something so heinous ? The Jews, of course.

Replace Germans with IDiots, WW1 with Dover, Germany with ID, War with scientific debate, and Jews with “Darwinists” and you get:

In this case, as I was shocked to learn, a huge fraction of IDiots after Dover sincerely believed that ID DID NOT LOSE THE SCIENTIFIC DEBATE. Since they could not have lost, it must therefore be the case that someone stabbed them in the back, threw in the towel for their own personal profit. And who was shifty, greedy, corrupt, and immoral enough to do something so heinous? The “Darwinists”, of course.

The similarities in how highly dogmatic and ideologically blinded groups react to defeat are rather disturbing, though not entirely surprising.

The Chick-lit motto should be “I reject your reality and substitute my own.” I can picture Jeebus Fish with IRYR&SMO on cars throught the US.

Actually a great t-shirt/bumper sticker slogan for xian moralists should be, “The threat of Hell is the only thing that keeps me from stealin’, orgyin’, killin’, and eatin’ my young’uns.

Evidently they think we’re all sociopaths without Jeebus, and being good for goodness’ sake is unachieveable without the threat of eternal damnation. Silly moralists. As for me,
I’ll be feasting on some baby flesh after the orgy/snuff film and bank heist. Anyone care to join me?

Screechy: Sorry, I should have elaborated…the real issue is that the word “monkey” doesn’t have much meaning in a formal taxonomic sense. Apes (inc. humans) are but one branch of the group of primates otherwise called “Old World monkeys,” and the colloquial term “monkeys” also includes the more distantly related “New World monkeys.” If that makes any sense.
Point is that the common ancestor of us apes and the living Old World monkeys would have itself been classified as an Old World monkey.
(I’ll leave any mess I’ve made here to David Marjanovi? to clean up. D?)

Even though Chick’s explanation of evolution was bizarre and confused it STILL made more sense than the Jesus story. I think he should burn this one lest it have the opposite of intended effect on our youth.

“Of course, we must always believe what scientists say … Others claim to know, but they are the ones who guide us.”

Since scientists don’t claim to KNOW — and simply pronounce truth by special revelation — then they make horrible guides, don’t they? As Dennis N points out in #17, the Chick-world view seems to take every argument as an Argument from Authority. You get told, and then you either choose to believe it, or choose to reject it. That’s as deep as their epistemology goes. They don’t seem to get past the way you think when you’re six years old.

They also have a child’s understanding of morality. Being good means obeying your Parent. If there is no Ultimate Parent, then you can do whatever you want. Ethical reasoning isn’t even on the map for these guys.

At any rate, I always enjoy creationist “descriptions” of evolution. They often look strangely like the New Age versions I grew up with (the life force working through matter and pulling it in the direction of higher levels of spiritual consciousness, till eventually we merge with the God Force, or something like that.) I suspect that the Chick-style creationists really couldn’t tell mainstream evolutionary theory apart from the vitalistic New Age Chopra-ish versions.

Or care, probably. They’d stand amazed that we lump Christian AND New Age creationism together.

It’s a classic and it’s racist. Chick shows his hand when the boy-who-would-be-god says, “My hair is blond and I have blue eyes. So… I’m above all others. I’m part of the master race.” It’s as if Chick assumes evolutionary theory says something about the superiority of blond hair and blue eyes…

I hate having to defend this comic, but here you are very wrong. Chick is defining the character as wrong for being an atheist. As such, the boy claiming his superiority for being blond and blue eyed must also be wrong. Clearly, Chick is making the Darwin to Nazism connection in the character of the boy. So the boy is racist not because Chick is racist but because he wants to label atheists as racists.

This is not to say Chick isn’t racist, just that this character does not demonstrate it.

Sili, I agree with the others — nice way to show your coolness, but the dorky kid asking what was stopping him from becoming a god didn’t even make me think of Death Note, and I’m a pretty massive fan. Not relevant.

The thing that really irritates me about all Chick Tracts is that every evolutionist, witch, athiest, etc. is violent, angry, and aggressive — the meek, patient Christian stands up and tries to quietly refute them while the big, bad anti-Christian tries to beat them down. It’s so much the opposite of what I have experienced all throughout my life, and it makes me sick.

I’M the one who gets threatened with hellfire.
I’m the one who gets told I don’t know what I’m talking about…
I’m the one who gets told she’ll be sorry.

This good-and-evil dynamic is completely bass-ackwards.

And it’s effing child abuse. It sets kids up to be on the defensive from the get-go. It makes it impossible for them to hear logic from anyone because they’ve already been “warned” that those people will be ready to harm them, physically or mentally, or persecute them. They grow up with their brains locked down, and remain miserable and stupid until they either go on to do more damage to others, or finally break out of it in time to live what’s left of their life in illuminated relief.

As Dennis N points out in #17, the Chick-world view seems to take every argument as an Argument from Authority. You get told, and then you either choose to believe it, or choose to reject it. That’s as deep as their epistemology goes. They don’t seem to get past the way you think when you’re six years old.

They also have a child’s understanding of morality. Being good means obeying your Parent. If there is no Ultimate Parent, then you can do whatever you want. Ethical reasoning isn’t even on the map for these guys.

To take it further — being good means obeying your Parent — and obeying your Parent means not growing up. If you so much as start to try to discern right & wrong for yourself, you are committing the same grave sin that Eve was. If you try to understand rational epistemology, you are guilty of doubt; you are lapsing in your faith; you are, in the words of Psalm 14, a fool.

So you have adults who have never grown up, and who are encouraged not to grow up, raising children, and teaching them never to grow up. I don’t think it’s anything that could be punishable by law, but morally, it *is* child abuse. I often find myself reflecting on how thankful I am to my mother for raising me as she did, without telling me what to think but simply telling me about the world around me, and reading the nicer biblical myths, greek myths, and children’s fiction side by side, as bedtime stories.

((There was also the time she tried to read me Animal Farm…that was actually kind of weird…four year old trying to understand allegory about the early USSR = FAIL.))

ThirdMonkey@95: “I’m familiar with the Chick tracks because of …the “D&D leads to witchcraft” track. Very funny.”

I saw that one proudly framed and hanging on the wall of a gaming store in Berkeley. When I got home I told my daughter that some folks (including half our family) believed that playing such games gave kids real Satanic powers. She replied “Kewl!”

My apologies for appearing to try to appear cool. Wasn’t my intention, just the connection I drew from the concept – guess I’m not all that famliar with the man-trying-to-become-god theme (not with DN, actually). I guess I’m wrong in my initial assumption that Chick was trying to cash in on the current interest in animanga. That’s probably giving him too much credit, yes. Mea culpa.

I am in the middle of writing a short story about what Hell would be like if it really existed as the fundamentalists believe, including the *full* ramifications of who would be there (i.e. not just Hitler and Stalin).

The only problem is, I fully expect that the foolish fundies wouldn’t get the point of the story and will believe it to be a fantastic teaching aid warning against remaining “unsaved” like that “Letter from Hell” a few months back!

A new classic Chick tract. Yes, this is pretty bad. But Big Daddy was in some ways worse because it got into more detail about the bogus “evidence” for creationism. In addition, Big Daddy’s cover depicts a gorilla as appearing much more humanlike than the species actually is. How “Darwinian” of Chick to do so.

Chick tracts on race: Chick tracts variously depict Jesus, angels, and God the Father as black, Asian, white etc. depending on the ethnic majority of the region in which the tracts are distributed.

(Yes, I have looked at a lot of Chick tracts.)

The ‘good’ Chick Tract artist is Fred Carter, who is African-American. This is clearly not a Carter-illustrated tract.

We can certainly blame Chick for confusing evolutionary biology with eugenics and national socialism. But if his allegorical story was solely about eugenics rather than “Darwinism” it would indeed mirror history for the budding eugenicist boy to assume that he was a member of the the master race – characterized by their blonde hair and blue-eyes – since that is exactly what the real eugenicist-racialists (Haeckel, Grant, Stoddard, Woltmann, Laughlin, Lenz etc.) did. For example, have a look at Human Heredity and Racial Hygiene (English edition pub. 1931), which served as a standard human genetics textbook in the US, UK, and Germany, for a steaming pile of Nordic supremacist eugenicist crap.

Sili – it’s just giving him too much credit. People like Jack Chick know nothing of Japanese culture, much less a niche and secular franchise like DN. The “if I don’t have to be Christian, I can be just like a god” theme runs wild in a lot of his tracts, always has. It’s the same reason Creobots think that evolutionists like believing what they believe because it gives them a license to be immoral. If you can stomach it, go to the site and browse some of the others — the Dungeons and Dragons tract is a real hoot.

It’s one of his greatest weapons in keeping children ignorant. We’re taught that knowledge came from sin, and so from a very young age, the idea of knowing things makes us feel guilty.

I agree with Etha… but I would also say that there is no halfway-sane parent in the world, atheist or otherwise, who would tell their child that there’s no such thing as morals. If for no other reason, the concept of morals is how you keep the little sociopaths from tearing apart your living room.

Kenny, there’s a little more to biology than paleontology. Why don’t you go learn something about science instead of wasting your time taking stupid potshots at things you don’t even understand? Aren’t you embarrassed yet? Well, you should be.

And I say that in a friendly way.

It’s like, you know, “Kenny, dude – you have spinach stuck in your teeth,” or “Kenny, dude, you might want to brush your teeth again before going on that date with Cindy Lou. That extended nomming we did on the taco buffet down in the dining hall tonight didn’t exactly sweeten things up if you catch my drift.”

P.S. …raise your hand if you, at any time in your life, have been fooled by one of these black-and-white LIE LEAFLETS. π

*sadly raises hand* Yep. They got me at least twice as a kid. Do you know how effed up it is to already have been “saved”, Baptised, etc., and STILL being scared into being “born again” every summer at Bible camp because I was so terrified of the lake of tastes-like-burning? I’m just a wee bit bitter.

I’m suddenly led to wonder how often new tracts come out. Do they churn out several a year, or do they leave their fans hungry like Lucas?

Of course, if you seen one, you’ve seen ’em all. I prefer Daniel Clowes’ Chick parody “Devil Doll” (from one of Jello Biafra’s spoken word CDs), the last page in particular.

“but I have never come across an active proselytizer passing out Chick Tracts.”

I have. I was biking through downtown Boise once and I saw some kid handing out tracts. I thought maybe he was handing out coupon books, so I swung by and took one, and only then did I notice the earnest street preacher fellow next to him, then looked down and saw what I had been handed. I made an audible noise of disgust as I passed the guy and rode off, not wanting to break my momentum. I was feeling particularly contemptuous of the kid’s involvement in particular, so I ended up impaling the tract on a nearby tree branch.

“On second thought, “losing our tails” being “the greatest event of all time” is also pretty funny.”

Yeah, funny because it’s so untrue. I mean, who isn’t saddened at this loss?

Kenny:
“I wish this was a real PHP forum so I could post a picture of what my face looks like right now.”

i always find this (not the cartoon, but the story that follows) to be a fascinating story. I think i read it in Mary leakey or richard leakey’s book on evolution some years ago.
i had to share it someplace. and it’s totally off topic (the cartoons were horrible. it’s unthinkable that anyone can actually believe that)
ok here goes….

Why is it that, in Australia, the only type of naturally occurring mammals are pouched mammals?
Australia was one of the first continents to break apart from the big continent (gondwanaland?). It broke apart millions of years ago when mammals had just started evolving. among the oldest types of mammals were pouched mammals. these pouched mammals were on the mass of land that broke away and floated to its current location.
so mammalian evolution happened in parallel in australia and the rest of the world. some australian mammals specialized to be predators (eg tasmanian devil) and some evolved to be kangaroos and other herbivorous mammals.

None of the mammals such as elephants, tigers, and us apes, which dominated over the rest of the world, naturally occur in australia (since the continent broke away before these mammals evolved and it was too far away for any of these mammals to swim to).

please do correct me if i have some facts wrong. and have a great weekend π

Well I think we all know that physics and engineering are more important to science than biology. Biology is the redheaded stepchild compared to what is really going on with the above sciences.

Since you have so much respect for physics, could you please write to Ben Stein and ask him to direct all his questions about gravity, thermodynamics, cosmology, etc to physicists? You know…the people who are actually qualified to discuss such things?

Also, do you have something against red-heads? Do you think they are an inferior race? Because that red-headed stepchild is keeping you alive. In the last 100 years, she’s approximately doubled the life expectancy. And also, I personally think she’s pretty cute ;).

I’m going to be a total blogwhore here because a post PZ did on a Ohio teacher a while back sparked a post I did in which I recounted the time I received from a public school teacher a comic book (an actual full-color, full-size comic book) created by Chick publications in which the Catholic church is accused, among other crimes, of murdering the babies conceived by illicit priest/nun hook-ups. I have pictures of the offending page at the link.

Did I mention that I was, at the time, a Catholic? And I received this comic from a Public School Teacher?

The only place I ever see them around here is in public restroom stalls. I’m assuming they’re actually placed their by the management, out of the kindness of their hearts, in case the toilet paper gives out. See? Chick tracts really *are* useful!

I actually had a Chick tract handed to me by a fundy coworker many years ago. Laughing her out of the room would have dissuaded a normal person, but in normal fundy style she kept plowing ahead.

She was one of those people who couldn’t believe there was someone like me who had a decent layman’s knowledge of what’s in the Bible – yet didn’t believe in it. The fact that many non-believers get to where they are because they attempt to take the Bible seriously was something she couldn’t fathom and it was completely outside her experience.

I had an extensive discussion with her about Nebuchadnezzar’s dream and what it supposedly meant, and she couldn’t get past the fact that I had read it but concluded it to be bogus. It’s like she thought the words themselves were somehow magic, and if the heathen would just read them the truth of them would be plain and obvious.

She was one of those people who couldn’t believe there was someone like me who had a decent layman’s knowledge of what’s in the Bible – yet didn’t believe in it.

The more extreme ones can’t understand how you could have heard John 3:16 before and not have converted *immediately*. Every time they say that verse, they seem to truly believe it is the first time you’ve heard it, and if it doesn’t convert you, it’s because you haven’t opened your heart to Jesus.

It’s like she thought the words themselves were somehow magic, and if the heathen would just read them the truth of them would be plain and obvious.

My normal-cum-fundie former friend and roommate was like that. He’d tell me some mundane parable with awe and wonderment, expecting I’d fall down in rapturous love for God. The blank look on his face when I’d finish the story and then dissect it was priceless.

Sad to watch a friend turn into such a dolt, especially when it was clear that he was struggling with severe depression requiring therapy, not self-flagellation.

For what it’s worth, I thought that Sili’s Death Note reference was pretty sharp. (People who like Death Note might enjoy the DVD Gabriel, which is something like Touched By An Angel meets The Matrix.)

A little googling led me to this detailed comparison between Jack Chick and Fred Carter’s respective styles. Carter really is an excellent illustrator.

I’m suddenly led to wonder how often new tracts come out. Do they churn out several a year, or do they leave their fans hungry like Lucas?

They once did several per year, but seem to be slowing down over the last three years or so. Being able to laugh at them on the web instead of having to troll public restrooms for paper copies may be cutting into their profitability. We can hope.

/ Because that red-headed stepchild is keeping you alive. In the last 100 years, she’s approximately doubled the life expectancy. And also, I personally think she’s pretty cute ;)./
Um, I’m sure you lost Kenny on that one.
But OMG, Etha. I’m even more awed by your command of subtext,… I think . YOU’RE not a redhead, are you?

Sad to watch a friend turn into such a dolt, especially when it was clear that he was struggling with severe depression requiring therapy, not self-flagellation.

I find this phenomenon incredibly tragic. Xianity promises an unconditionally loving personal God, person with low/no self-love wants badly to believe in it, person joins a religion that constantly talks about how you are a born sinner and can only be redeemed by believing, religion’s views on sin reinforces person’s innate lack of self-worth…it’s a vicious cycle. And meanwhile the people around this person say, “Oh, isn’t it wonderful? He’s found comfort in the love of God!”

(To give a practical illustration of this self-hating, god-loving phenomenon: when I was a psychologically troubled teenager and converted to religion for these reasons, guess what story ultimately brought about my conversion (after hearing a lot of others)? You’d think one of the nice ones about how Jesus cares for all of his followers, right? Nope. The book of Job.)

I guess I can see how it at least got us thinking, Colugo. π It’s just that Raito’s initial purpose and the message that spins on from there — the question, at what point is it our job to intervene and punish the bad and the cruel, and would the world really be better if we frightened them into submission? It’s very intriguing. I just think it’s too deep for Chick — or any Creobot — to ever logically comprehend. Because it doesn’t include Yahweh. I do like how DN never introduces any higher power than Raito or the Shinigami. I kept worrying the plot would later try to explain away more of the world, but it didn’t, which was nice.

The draw for me is the human intrigue element, and the thriller aspect. Getting to ask yourself whether you would side with Kira or not actually has its place in this conversation, because it’s sort of like wondering how anybody can truly believe the things Fundies believe. From an outside perspective, it’s just batshit. But you know, somewhere out there, there are people cheering for the bad guy (Fred Phelps, anyone?). Not to say Raito isn’t without merit, but he is an antihero.

I just realized a flaw (OK, one of many) in the premise of the latest Chick tract: in an earlier Chick tract the Holocaust was characterized as an “Inquisition” masterminded by the Catholic Church. Now the Holocaust is (by implication) the inevitable outcome of the “religion” of evolution. What gives? Perhaps this explains why the Vatican endorsed theistic evolution.

(Maybe I should be sitting in a recliner as I write this, but I can’t be the only one who’s peeved that the live action Death Note movies are not yet available in the US. Stupid DVD regions.)

Sincerest congrats JoeB.
I was totally awed when my wife’s Grandparents celebrated their 70th wedding anniversary a couple of months ago. Obviously, ou have to marry young, live beyond the average lifespan and be able to stand a person for a few generations. I hope you and your wife get to see your 70th.

Have you seen how Chick calls C. S. Lewis books “occult” and says they must be burnt?

Is that sectarian warfare?

Australia was one of the first continents to break apart from the big continent (gondwanaland?). It broke apart millions of years ago when mammals had just started evolving. among the oldest types of mammals were pouched mammals. these pouched mammals were on the mass of land that broke away and floated to its current location.

Erm…

Rather than counting the mistakes, I’ll start afresh. The split into placentals and marsupials happened in Asia some 130 million years ago. Both groups spread and diversified in the northern continents (Asia and North America were connected, and so was Europe sometimes). About 65 million years ago, the ancestors of the marsupials proper crossed the sea from North America to South America. Africa, and later India + the Seychelles + Madagascar, had already broken off Gondwana, and so had New Zealand + New Caledonia, but the rest — South America, Antarctica, Australia — was still intact, so the marsupials spread not just across South America, but also into Antarctica and then Australia. Antarctica was not yet under ice, though it did experience polar night every year.

At about the same time, perhaps up to 5 million years later but no more, placentals also reached South America. They got into what is now the Antarctic Peninsula, but apparently never reached Australia. Perhaps they didn’t manage to cross the zone of polar night, or something… who knows…

Australia broke off from Antarctica some 45 million years ago. About 37 million years ago South America and Antarctica ripped apart.

————————

Anyway. 123141 153 comments, and not one reference to the Cthulhu Tract? Iδ! Iδ!

I love these folks and their telling of bible stories using LEGOS. Left out is none of the smiting, begetting, murdering, raping, lying & deceiving, warring & whoring, adultery, mass slaughter, human & animal sacrifices, incest or plagues; all personally approved of by god.

A buddy of mine found a Chick Tract in the elevator in the building where we work. Knowing how I feel about superstition/religion, he picked it up and gave it to me. He also asked if I was going to recycle it.

Hail no. I’m keeping it.

Mine is called “Creator or Liar?”

My one-word response was: “Or?”

My favorite parts of the Bible revolve around what happens when God gets mad. Did you know he shakes the pillars of heaven when he gets mad? I just find that concept so amusing; God having temper-tantrums, and the Johnstons on the third floor of their apartment building have to go out and buy new china, because they forgot to secure their furniture.

“Gar, blast the God! I mean, I love his son and all, but the dad… Why does he keep causing heavenquakes? Jeebus, what a fool.”

Next day: Eviction notice. D’oh.

Is there a comic strip series about life in heaven, based on passages of the Big Book? If there isn’t, there should be.

It’s interesting that the same comic provides two competing creation accounts, neither of which is very plausible. Removed from an assumed religious context, it would be hard to figure out which one is being advocated (OK, the final panel clears up the confusion).

Chick’s only arguments are “scientists say so” or “God says so.” I get the impression that Chick cannot comprehend any basis for belief other than appeal to authority. This explains much of his confusion, which extends to other creationists as well.

#158 MikeM –
A comic about life in heaven wouldn’t be very interesting. According to the “Big Book” all you do in heaven, all you will EVER do in heaven for all eternity is bask in the glory of God. Boring…

#112:Go back and look at it again. The racist passage is in an “aside” specifically drawn differently. And Tyler is referred to in the 3rd person. This is straight from the JC himself.

In one frame the boy is saying to himself “I have blue eyes … I must be the master race” then the next frame is drawn differently and is Chick’s comment on the boy’s statement. “Look who doesn’t fit into Tyler’s ‘master race’.” He is ridiculing Tyler for being racist. And blames it on his belief in evolution that demands elimination of the weaker.
So there is a hint of Chick’s own racism peeking through, but I think the intent of the panel is to paint atheists as racists.

The point is, the frame that was originally being used to identify Chick as a racist was the frame with Tyler, not Chick’s comment on Tyler’s attitude.

Regardless, as I said originally, I hate having to defend this guy as I find everything about his comics contemptible and was just engaging in a bit of nit-picking. It is not worth arguing about any further. That there might be one panel out of thousands that might be misinterpreted is really insignificant. Sorry to have made a fuss.

My point was that Chick might have a superficial knowledge of DN – much like me. After all isn’t that what he demonstrates with the D’n’D story? So I naοvely assumed that he or his informers might have registered that ‘kids these days’ were talking about this guy who wanted to set himself up as god. From the comments I realise this is a theme with Chick and any cursery resemblance is down to my limited knowledge.

A friend gave me vol. 1 a while back, so I s’pose I should jump on the wagon and get sucked in, myself.

Chick’s only arguments are “scientists say so” or “God says so.” I get the impression that Chick cannot comprehend any basis for belief other than appeal to authority.

It is very possible that he can’t even see the difference. However, I wonder if, instead, he is unwilling to even suggest that there COULD be any other reason to pick one “creation story” over another for tactical reasons. Whether he’s doing it deliberately or unconsciously, reducing both to arguments from authority makes creation “just as good” as what “scientists say.” After all, if Jack suggests that the scientific account involves more than just the proclamation of scientists from on-high, it might make the Biblical story look a bit… less reasonable?

Plus, I think it’s easier for him to draw evil atheist scientists than blasphemous fossils.

Colugo: What MikeM said, and also — May 20-21 (I think), the first film is showing in 300 theatres around the US. Look it up and make your way to the closest theatre and catch it on the big screen while you can. π

Sili: You’re right; my addendum to that is that he and his ilk are more likely to chalk things like DN, D&D, superhero comics and the like ALL to evil. I guess I should say anything secular. The themes tend to run in the same vein. Chick wants kids to read stories where kids learn about Jesus. Thaaaaat’s about it.

I remember being in middle school and pretty much understanding that “secular” was just another word for “evil”. Sad, right?

I’ll stop going off topic now. My advice to you is, yes, gobble up the manga, but something happens in the middle that will probably make you stop reading. Let’s just say adding new main characters is not always a great idea. As an American voice actress, I’ve gone through my whole manga/anime obsession phase and now I’m very picky about what I like — Death Note and Mushi-shi are two of the manga/anime that I’ve really adored, and I highly recommend them for their own reasons — the former for the human/thriller aspect, the latter for its classic Japanese ghost-story charm.

Etha #111: “So you have adults who have never grown up, and who are encouraged not to grow up, raising children, and teaching them never to grow up. I don’t think it’s anything that could be punishable by law, but morally, it *is* child abuse.”

That brings it together for me – the rise of evangelism in our day. It’s due to the rise of TV and pervasive capitalism.

In the post-WWII era, we’ve been reduced from customers to consumers – things aren’t sold to us, but we are sold by advertisement producers to vendors (they call it selling eyeballs). So, the subtext to all advertisement now is self-reinforcing – that we should be consumers.

Now, the consumer is an infant. The consumer isn’t a producer, the consumer is like a baby who just wants to be fed and taken care of by god-like authority figures, free of responsibility or meaningful role in affairs. After three or four generations of constantly being fed the concept that we should be like newborns, we are becoming like newborns.

So we naturally become fundies, or corporate toadies just makin’ a buck. We stop voting, we stop being involved in our own lives and become passive consumers, chasing the latest flashy object.

Etha..nope,the book of Job
Perspective is important when reading the Bible. There’s a line of thought that the Book of Job is written by an angry man,railing against the injustice of a God who would choose to torture a man in order to prove to the devil that faith is what is needed to believe in God.
That book would indeed cause a conversion. It may have converted the writer.

I’ve heard before that “there are more people alive than have ever died”. Anyone know if that’s still true?

It has never been true. It’s just a credulous popular saying. I suppose it’s based on the fact that the population has doubled or tripled within living memory, but that’s only a historically recent trend, and a few moments’ reflection should show that “more alive than dead” doesn’t hold up.

How many people have ever lived, of course, depends on exactly where you draw the line as to what constitutes a person (human). Here’s one estimate, counting people only from 50,000 BCE on:

Chick is the shiznit! I got my first exposure to his madness via Ivan Stang’s “High Weirdness by Mail”. My favorite one (one of my best college buddies is Hindu) was the one which froths: “There are six million gods in India AND ALL OF THEM ARE SATANIC!!!” Guess chicky didn’t count on there being Indian Christians.

The quality has slipped drastically from the grand old hayday of Chickism, although our little protagonist here does look remarkably like Hermie from the Rudolph cartoon. I thought he wanted to be a dentist, not a deity.

As far as Etha’s question:
“Can we give a name to the ridiculous argument that atheists necessarily will believe they are gods?”

I think these fundies have atheists confused with Mormons as far as apotheosis goes.

Holydust, thanks for the tip on the Death Note theatrical release . (And thanks, MikeM, for the suggestion.) Holydust and Sili’s comments highlight a value of any fantasy mythos; namely, to raise questions and discussion about ethics, social mores, etc. using scenarios that mirror real life choices but with the fantastical aspects allowing for more critical distance. Mythology is only problematic when it is taken to be literally true and its imaginary characters become objects of veneration or fear. Which, I suppose, is the human social default pattern.

Many years ago, when I was in high school, I happened to see Pat Robertson on TV bitching about kids playing Dungeons and Dragons. He was offering a pamphlet for parents about it, and I called up his 800 number and get a copy.

The pamphlet said that something like five million kids were playing D&D, and it described how three kids had gone off the deep end and killed themselves, allegedly because they played D&D.

I don’t think math was Pat’s long suit, because if you divide three by five million, you have a pretty good statistical case for D&D as a suicide preventative.

Voice actress, eh? Sounds both fun and difficult. I think I’d best keep schtumm about what little anime I’ve actually watched very shallow little show produced only with the aim of selling toys – dubbed by Nelvana, I think.

Look guys, threatening Kenny with smallpox isn’t going to change his mind about biology. Everyone knows smallpox was cured in the 20th century because we finally reached the critical mass of Christians praying for it to be cured. That whole “vaccine” thing just happened around the same time. Remember, correlation does not imply causation.

What’s so insidious is that this tract suggests that the teacher (representing science in general) is brainwashing students not to believe in truth (God), when in fact the intent of this tract is to terrorize kids into believing in eternal damnation if they don’t believe in this bronze-age myth. This theme was brought up in Monkey Girl, when one of the board members accused schools of brainwashing students, when in fact the reverse is true. The fundies pound this shit into their kids from day one, terrorizing them, and them claim the teachers are brainwashing their kids. It kind of makes me nuts.

I’d be better able to laugh at Chick tracts if so many people didn’t take them seriously. I fear the prospect of children getting exposed to this dreck and accepting it as fact. When is someone gonna make anti-Chick tracts promoting science and logic? They don’t even have to necessarily bash creationism, they should just encourage the reader to think critically and come to their own conclusions based on observation.

Heeheehee… I bought Dark Dungeons (the out of print version, that still calls C.S. Lewis Satanic) off of eBay for $5. It’s brought me waaaaay more amusement than a similarly-priced beer ever could.

The best description I’ve ever heard of Chick Tracts is “Evangelical Porn”. It’s a theological masturbatory fantasy, in which all atheists are evil evil people who are easily defeated and made fools of by the brilliant divinely-inspired rhetoric of the heroic Saved. “Big Daddy” really exemplifies this sort of thing; there’s simply no way that the coup de classroom would have gone down like that.

The mother in this comic is the same way. Chick’s not even *trying* to write her as a believable (if obviously still the villain of the piece) character, he’s just making her a projection of what creationists WISH evolutionists sounded like. I wouldn’t even call her a parody, because there’s no basis for the parody. It’s like this screed on FSTDT that purports to show family conversations at an atheist house. It rejects our reality and substitutes it’s own… in which we look stupid. And are booger-brains. It’s a world in which they’re rubber, and we’re glue. Neener fucking neener.

I’m sure I’m not the only one who has been patiently waiting for Kenny to say something so stupid or inflammatory that he gets himself banned, leading someone to pipe up with “He killed Kenny! You bastard!” π

Unfortunately, hope for such an scenario is fading, especially after Kenny’s embarrassingly-lame attempt at trolling upthread.

I appreciate your compliments. They are just what I need to help me on my difficult faith evolutionary journey from atheism to autotheism, so that I can finally finish losing my tail and become a real Humanist (as per Tyler’s wonderful example).

I think a lot of you have really missed the point. It’s a comic. It’s not meant to be taken seriously, it’s meant to be funny. It’s irony, sarcasm, contradiction and facetiousness all rolled into one.

For example:“Jesus taught us to love and forgive one another”
in the same comic strip as:“If you reject Jesus, your Creator, that will be your worst mistake ever!” You’ll be in the lake of fire with billions of others who believe we evolved from monkeys.”

I mean, come on guys – that’s funny! The contrasting juxtaposition – did anyone see that coming? I didn’t. I spat coffee over my monitor. The surprise element is a fundamental of brilliant humour. In fact it’s often the most difficult part of constructing an original joke.

The guy is a comic genius. Geez, next you’ll be dismantling Calvin and Hobbes and trying to poke holes in their epic adventures or telling us cats don’t eat lasagna so Jim Davis must be braid dead or soemthing.

Actually, the reason we do not become gods is very evident from anthropology– I mean, look at the old King of the Bean superstition. they worship you as a harvest god, and then when the harvest goes bad… well, they sacrifice the god and get a new one.

Or the Aztecs’ choice of one youth as the avatar of a god for a year, and then at the end of the year, it’s the ol’ obsidian altar.

Obviously volunteering for Godhood is a suboptimal survival choice, perpetuated only because living gods get the pick of the young women around the village.

I am always amused by the Christian infatuation with an immortal being “dying” for them, or the emphasis on the entity being “the only begotten son” of a thing that supposedly created everything. The sand monster they worship could have farted for them and it would have had as serious implications.

So much time from so many lives wasted in the pursuit of notions that are so silly that it makes one wonder how they can be held without causing catastrophic skull failure.

@70: Not sure if anyone’s mentioned this yet (I’m too lazy to check all 150 comments after yours), but IIRC, the dead outnumber the living by 10:1 or so these days. Might’ve been in New Scientist’s “Last Word” some time – I don’t recall, but Google should help.

As a former Christian, I can definitely vouch for the crazy look Tyler got in his eyes when he reckoned he could become a god. I had the swirlies, as I like to call them, for days when I lost my faith. I don’t know how many people were crushed in my insane rage…

Where is the rest of the track, there is a lot more too it than those three parts…There is also a part in the track where it says scientists are always right, so you must accept everything they say…lol

>Fanatical Christians are misrepresenting and scapegoating
>us atheists in the same way that they misrepresented and
>scapegoated Jews for centuries. These cartoons might seem
>light-hearted, but they can breed a climate which is
>conducive to violence.

yeah, Marx and hitler were not violent either. If you want to make general statements. I mean we have kids that have been brainwashed by atheism burning down churches. Sure, no violence in that.

I love how Atheists all make very general statements about Christians (because they have to blame someone).

I don’t mind some atheists, the ones that are not militant. The ones that are decent people. The ones that may not believe in God but actually can get along in the real world and are tollerant of others beliefs.

How can you dare preach tollerance and yet you can’t tollerate someone because of what they believe religiously?

How can you call someone stupid just because you don’t believe in what they believe? How can you make a statement that God is somehow imaginary when you have no clue about your own lives and what is out there?

I see no proof that any of this atheistic stuff does good for anyone. Free your minds or just free your conscious?
Helping others or helping yourself?

Sorry, I just have serious doubts that atheism can hardly be any better than Christianity or Judism.

Atheism too me is just a religious view on your own pride. I did this or I did that or we are better than or I am better than. At the end of the day all you are doing is lifting your own self up in pride. It’s not about anyone else, it’s all about yourself.

When you read dawkin’s book, it sounds like a great pat on the back and that everyone else who doesn’t believe in what he does is stupid and then yet another pat on the back.

So, really it is all about selfish pride and how he somehow englightened humankind and how we are much better for it. However, I honestly don’t see things that way. It’s like a blind man being full of pride because he is blind.

When I look here and see all of these rabid atheists trying to grab for every bone that they can scratch from the bottom of the barrel, it makes me really think that my wife’s cousin who is an atheist is so much nicer than anyone here. Sure, he hears our views and we listen to him, but he isn’t really like anyone here. He calmly explains his point of view and everything is nice and civil.

He doesn’t call us stupid or retarded or doesn’t get excited or upset. He is a decent human being and yet he is an atheist. He does not like dawkins because dawkin’s is on a mission to get rid of the so called ignorance and him and his group of people are just as militant as islamic groups minus the violence (yet). However, that might be coming (when I see some of the posts on here, I do believe that it will eventually lead to violence). Like I said it already has, with that kid on the Internet burning down the church.

So while we’re on the topic of Mollys, I can see there’s going to have to be some serious discussion about this. I don’t think there have been any awarded since I started following Pharyngula closely but I understand they’re awarded via some kind of popular acclaim or informal polling. Yes, it’s going to be very difficult to decide who gets the other Molly. They usually come in pairs, right?

I would like to register my support for brokenSoldier. He doesn’t post as often as I would like, but I would not sacrifice quality for frequency. I particularly admire his even temper, well reasoned arguments and readable style.

I didn’t say Biology is useless, I said that it is not as important compared to other sciences that is for the future of humankind.

Even those scientists will agree with that.

I’m not sure which world you live in.

Meanwhile in our world bioscience and biotechnology is widely recognized by both scientists and industry to be the area with possibly the largest potential besides information technology (which it has a synergistic relationship to) for economical and societal impact.

That impact (as well as for information technology) spans a spectra from food, living conditions, health, medicine to such technologies as fuel and energy technology.

Yeah, Marx wasn’t. He wrote about what he viewed as the structure (class struggle) and direction (eventual proletariat revolution) of the Hegelian dialectic of history. You are thinking of various self-called Marxists, to whom Marx most likely would have said (as he did to Guesde): “If that is Marxism, then I am not a Marxist.”

As for Hitler…I don’t really see the point of telling you this since countless people already have countless times, but he wrote in Mein Kampf: “”I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

In the panel where little Tyler is proclaiming that there are no absolutes, everything is relative, the tract has a footnote (lest you forget that Tyler is an unreliable narrator) reminding you: “Lie! Here’s an absolute: the words of God (KJV)!”

Maybe I’m missing something, but did they just favor the KJV over later, and more accurate, translations? Weird.

Etha, I don’t think “accuracy of translation” is something that even enters their heads. I’m pretty sure the rationale would run along the lines of, “KJV was the Bible given to us by God.” In fact, I doubt that many Chick readers have even considered the fact that the Bible was not originally written in English.

I don’t mind some atheists, the ones that are not militant. The ones that are decent people. The ones that may not believe in God but actually can get along in the real world and are tollerant of others beliefs.

Actually you’re right. There shouldn’t be the need for any militant behaviour, afterall let’s face it, fundamentalist Christians are themselves extremely civil and perfectly respecful of the “beliefs” of homosexuals, women who wish to abort, and anybody who disagrees with their worldview. Just start asking yourself, who started with the intolerance ?

Kenny, stop looking at things from only your side of the equation, try to take a higher view, try to be a bit more compassionate (hey that’s a real Christian value, seems many have forgotten that one) and you’ll see, like me, that the reaction of many militant Atheist in the USA is a just one. BTW That doesn’t mean that you have to give up on your faith, or even weaken it, why should it, if it is true ?
Look, the other side has completely exagerated (check on wikipedia Overton window, you’ll learn something interesting) and has desperately attempted to transform what was ounce one of the most enlightened democracies on the planet into one of the most backwards thinking.

So, you don’t want anymore miltant Atheists, but you don’t have any problems with the militant Christian fundamentalists (which number by the millions in the USA), and you think that’s fair ? Just think about it.

I mean we have kids that have been brainwashed by atheism burning down churches.

Ah, another assertion from the Kenster without any supporting evidence.

How can you call someone stupid just because you don’t believe in what they believe?

I personally don’t, and nor do most of the commenters here. The charge of “stupidity” (or “irrationality” or “delusion”) is not based on the fact that we believe something different from you – it is based on the tendency of many believers – exemplified by your good self – to make unsubstatiated claims and to offer hopelessly flawed arguments.

Atheism too me is just a religious view on your own pride. I did this or I did that or we are better than or I am better than. At the end of the day all you are doing is lifting your own self up in pride. It’s not about anyone else, it’s all about yourself.

Uh huh. We don’t think that the universe was created for our benefit by an all-powerful entity who is intimately concerned with our individual lives, yet we are the ones guilty of the sin of pride …

Even those scientists will agree with that. Just look at all of science which do you think most people think are more important.

1) Argumentum ad populum. Look it up.

2) What do we care which science might be “most important”? Isn’t that a childish question? You agree that no science is useless; with that I’m fine.

3) You keep talking about “those scientists” as if none of them were here. As in, here in this thread.

I mean we have kids that have been brainwashed by atheism burning down churches.

What??? Show me.

I love how Atheists all make very general statements about Christians

Typically about the ones they grew up with.

How can you dare preach tollerance and yet you can’t tollerate someone because of what they believe religiously?

You act as if you had been banned π

You have the right to say what you want. And we have the right to say what we want about what you say. Deal?

How can you call someone stupid just because you don’t believe in what they believe?

How would you characterize belief in the complete absence of evidence, let alone belief that contradicts available evidence? Wouldn’t you call it’s stupid, or at least think it’s stupid?

How can you make a statement that God is somehow imaginary when you have no clue about your own lives and what is out there?

What do you mean?

I see no proof that any of this atheistic stuff does good for anyone.

Read a few deconversion stories, then.

Atheism too me is just a religious view on your own pride. I did this or I did that or we are better than or I am better than. At the end of the day all you are doing is lifting your own self up in pride. It’s not about anyone else, it’s all about yourself.

Show me.

Maybe I’m missing something, but did they just favor the KJV over later, and more accurate, translations? Weird.

Yes, but some of those American sects really do believe that not just the original, but also the KJV translation is divinely inspired, and that all other translations (at least the English ones, but some go farther!) contain mistakes heresies. It’s hard to believe, but they already believe six impossible things before breakfast… in fact, this insanity is so common that here is a site that calmly takes the arguments of these nutbars apart.

In fact, I’ve read somewhere that the KJV has 30,000 known translation mistakes…

I have always wondered why people are so “happy” at hearing about Jesus. I mean the story tells you he suffered miserably and was nailed to a cross – if that makes an Xian HAPPY, I don’t know what to say…Technically would a moral, decent person be “overjoyed” once they heard that a innocent guy has nailed and treated something cruel so that their eternal life could be happy… The sadism scares me.

The sad thing, of course, is that Jack Chick is just as baffling and upsetting to most Christians as he is to everyone else. His god is a tiny, small-minded demon who could not be farther from what we actually believe in.

Yes, but some of those American sects really do believe that not just the original, but also the KJV translation is divinely inspired, and that all other translations (at least the English ones, but some go farther!) contain mistakes heresies.

I suppose this shouldn’t have shocked me, but…wow. I always thought the “bible in the original KJ English” thing was just a joke. And yeah…I looked him up on wikipedia, and as it turns out, Jack Chick is a follower of the KJO movement. He’s also a dispensational premillenialist. Oy…

Hmm, I’ve been criticised by Baptists for referring to the KJV in the polemics. Someone said, “Atheists love to refer to the KJV because it’s so easy to distort.” They felt there were better, more accurate versions that they felt were ‘truer’.

Yes, but some of those American sects really do believe that not just the original, but also the KJV translation is divinely inspired, and that all other translations (at least the English ones, but some go farther!) contain mistakes heresies.

Plenty of American sects believe things that are totally unsupported by the Bible, too. Hell, for example, and the Rapture. Also Heaven (Heaven refers to ‘the heavens’). In the Bible, the concept of an ‘after-life’ is a misnomer. People are not generally conceived of as having ‘souls’ separate from their bodies (that was a Greek idea), and the idea of people’s ‘spirits’ surviving their physical death is given only a very reluctant, somewhat disinterested assent.

The Bible writers are not interested in any kind of ‘spiritual existence.’ They look forward to bodily resurrection and eternal life in a new heaven (again, ‘the heavens,’ not ‘Heaven’) and a new earth (presumably to be created after the death of the current universe, which they, lacking a scientific understanding of the universe, thought to be much nearer than it actually is).

Well I think we all know that physics and engineering are more important to science than biology. Biology is the redheaded stepchild compared to what is really going on with the above sciences.

Lets see, fosil evidence for creatures that don’t exist anymore, or science than can give us jobs, build future technology.

So Kenny, you think biology isn’t important eh? Well it just so happens that biology is especially important to engineering. Take for example genetic algorithms, or a search technique for solving problems.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm
Genetic algorithms take an understanding of evolutionary biology in order to work with. Genetic algorithms can produce better things than anything designed by human
engineers. Genetic algorithms don’t care if it doesn’t have straight lines or the math is hard to work out, they only care if it works. Genetic algorithms have Genetic algorithms have even produced things that we humans cannot figure out how they work.http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=870http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFWDxqcZqvYhttp://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=genetic+algorithm&search_type=Not to mention biology’s applications in medicine, and more recently chemistry. We chemical engineers are particularly excited about finding out what the first organisms were, so we can get em to make stuff for us!

“Atheism too me is just a religious view on your own pride. I did this or I did that or we are better than or I am better than. At the end of the day all you are doing is lifting your own self up in pride. It’s not about anyone else, it’s all about yourself.”

Speaking only from my personal experience (there are many atheistic and agnostic attitudes to life), pride plays no role in my unbelief. Back in the day, when I fancied myself A C.S. Lewis or Francis Schaeffer type Christian, I fell for that same line about the egoism of atheists.

I haven’t a clue about the meaning of life or my place in it. My ignorance is disconcerting and uncomfortable. I am certainly not proud of being an existential ignoramus.

But…I will not brainwash myself into any state of belief that would make me feel better, nor will I sniff at the carrot stick of a sweet-dream afterlife. I can only stumble along as honestly and as open to evidence as I can.

He’s going to hell because he didn’t do what Kathy told him? This is how God judges us now? You’ll go to hell if you believe scientists, but you’ll go to heaven if you listen to prissy little girls in nice dresses. π

I thought the Bible said that kids were suposed to obey their parents.

Great post and great conversation. I just stumbled across your site and I must thank you for making my day. Let me return the favor by turning you on to a collection of short films based on actual Chick Tracts. You can find it at http://www.316now.com. There are nine films, each a seperate tract by Jack Chick. I think you will enjoy it.

How can you dare preach tollerance and yet you can’t tollerate someone because of what they believe religiously?

Honest disagreement and criticism is part of tolerance. In order to argue with people, you need to start out respecting them enough to think that they share your values, and can be persuaded. Tolerance is not the same thing as “approval.” Or indifference.

Arguing religion is like arguing politics. When Republicans disagree with Democrats (or vice versa) it’s not fair to immediately insist they are being “intolerant of different views.” Real intolerance tries to shut down debate, stop it before it starts, because the other side isn’t worth it.

As for the insults and epithets — well, welcome to the internet. It may be ugly, but it doesn’t in itself mean implacable hatred. Passion, perhaps.

Atheism too me is just a religious view on your own pride. I did this or I did that or we are better than or I am better than. At the end of the day all you are doing is lifting your own self up in pride. It’s not about anyone else, it’s all about yourself.

No, atheism is a view on whether God exists or not. And it doesn’t really matter if it makes people proud, or mean, or dogmatic, or silly. It’s not about us. It has nothing to do with adopting it because it will make us “better people.”

Is it true? Not “does it work for me?” Not “does this give me hope?” Not “can I use this belief to help myself?” Not “will it make me nicer?” Not “will people like me more?” Not “am I going to get something out of atheism if I become an atheist?”

Only Is it likely to be the truth? Does God exist? Is it likely?

That is not self-seeking. It is truth-seeking.

dawkin’s is on a mission to get rid of the so called ignorance and him and his group of people are just as militant as islamic groups minus the violence (yet).

“Minus the violence?” Isn’t violence and force rather critical to the definition of “militant?”

Stop that. Richard Dawkins tries to persuade people through rational argument. He writes books, speaks at universities as a guest, goes on Book Talk, and is interviewed on public radio.

To call this “militant” and compare it to fanatics who fly planes into buildings and plant bombs in subways is nonsense. And you know it. If you’re going to complain about extreme language and expressions, clean up your own.

Yeah, crazy fundies tend to feel that the KJV is the One True Translation and that all other translations are a New Age conspiracy.

I once found myself on a KJV-Only web-ring, which linked a whole bunch of KJV-only sites together. The “webmaster” (or whatever you call the person in charge of the web-ring) had put up an entire site explaining a recent dust-up which had evidently left the web-ring shaken and upset. Some of the King-James-Version Only sites had been interpreting and using the King James Version of the Bible in the wrong way! Yes! They had to be thrown out! Of course. What else?

I’m not sure what, exactly, the problem had been — it seemed either too sensitive, or too obvious, to make clear.

It condemns parents who teach about the tooth fairy, santa, the easter bunny, etc…because teaching those things leads to children committing terrorist acts against disbelievers at their school, and, much worse, believing Jesus is a fairy tale when they find out the truth.

Yes, a lot of kids have been killed when they tell other children there is no Santa. And there’s no way kids ever gradually figure it out for themselves. Notice how — once again — it’s all about believing authority. Who do you choose to believe? Not a damn thing about thinking things through or experimenting.

And if you don’t believe the person who is correct about Jesus, that is the exact same thing as not believing Jesus himself.

It’s funny that some Christians hate the Santa myth because they think it preps children for rejecting religion later on — and some atheists hate the Santa myth because they think it’s “God-on-training-wheels.”

It’s funny that some Christians hate the Santa myth because they think it preps children for rejecting religion later on — and some atheists hate the Santa myth because they think it’s “God-on-training-wheels.”

Yeah. What’s bizarre about the Christian anti-Santa argument, though, is that they don’t recognize the truth in it. These people make a comic strip all about how a kid realizes that Jesus is just as ludicrous as Santa, Easter Bunny, etc and about the dangers of dogmatic unquestioning belief (though I have to say, killing for Santa was taking it a bit far…). But the lesson they get out of that is, perplexingly, that Jesus *is* true…and that dogmatic Xianity is nothing like the dogmatic Santaism that leads to killing people!

(The idea that people couldn’t figure out Santa isn’t real through evidence and logic is bizarre too…as far back as I can remember ((about age 4)), I didn’t believe in Santa, but I kept this to myself because I was afraid that if I told my parents, I’d stop getting “Santa’s” presents. It worked, I suppose.)

Yeah, the “No Santa Killing Spree” tract is the ultimate Chick tract. That’s been my *cough* favorite for a while. That’s the one I’d use as a demo. If anyone can read it and draw a conclusion other than “Chick is a lunatic,” they’re already too far gone anyway.

Some years ago I came across a website that pointed out Chick’s skilful drawing of cocks and pussies. He was slamming people who join what he sees as wacky cults. The cultists were engaged in various non-biblical (according to Chick) activities. If only I had kept a copy. The man is unique. (thankfully)

I didn’t say Biology is useless, I said that it is not as important compared to other sciences that is for the future of humankind.

I think you’re making a common mistake, here. You’re confusing science and technology. The science is “systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation”, i.e.,
the knowledge you need to have before you can build the technology (“the application of science, especially to industrial or commercial objectives”). The shiny toys–the computers, powered machines, etc.–are what you can do with the science. So are the medicines, the drought-resistent/insect-resistent crops, and the possible alternative fuels being developed to replace petrofuels.

Moving on to 220, you say:

I love how Atheists all make very general statements about Christians (because they have to blame someone).

Don’t you think we all love how Christians all make very general statements about athiests/scientists/non-Christians in general? (Because, presumably, they have to blame someone.) See how silly that sounds?
Also, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, it’s hard to avoid tarring a group all with the same brush, in this case, Christians, when the moderate voices among them are, disproportionately, not speaking up; letting the Christian “voice” default to Fundamentalist Anti-science.

On the subject of atheism being selfish pride, I suspect that what you think, is that atheism is promoting yourself into god’s place. Not so. It’s a perception that there is no such place in need of filling, be it with a god, science, or self. It’s also possible that you are casting us in Satan’s role, too prideful to “serve in Heaven”, preferring to “rule in Hell”. Also not true. However, I will point out that religion is a much better tool for manipulating others to one’s own selfish purposes than atheism could ever be; it lacks the possibility of invoking a Higher Power, or threatening with Eternal Punishment.

And on the general subject of name-calling, keep in mind that here, you are outnumbered, so it just isn’t going to be possible for you to see as many religious people hurling invective as it would be on, for instance, a more religiously-oriented site. Tour through a few of those, and you’ll see the same sort of reception you reject as inappropriate when applied to religious commentators, being applied to the irreligious and science-supporting commentators. The difference, to my observation, is that in those sites, we also get a lot of frothing at the mouth about how we are going to Burn In Hell Forever, and that the poster saying this, looks forward to gloating about it.
Apparently, this is their idea of a morally acceptable time. No, thanks.

Cicely, current Molly voting is still open, at least in that PZ hasn’t announced the latest winner(s) yet. So, you can express your opinion on the most recent Molly voting thread. You might want to voice your support for brokenSoldier there, he’s definitely in the running. (It appears that Etha’s time is coming soon, yes, but not quite that soon, unless a whole lot more people go over to that thread and put in a good word for her…)

I love how Atheists all make very general statements about Christians (because they have to blame someone).

I like the fact that all the Biblical references are nicely references with book and verse numbers, and the scientific references are merely stated as the author interprets them…or at least how he want’s the reader to understand them. Now that’s fair.

I’ve read and mulled over all the comments for a couple days. What strikes me is that most of those responses to Kenny are like shooting blanks: they’re not really going to be effective since they don’t, for the most part, reach him where he lives, in a manner of speaking.

Those responses appear to me to issue from two basic mindsets:

jackass — that Kenny should be punished for his lack of self-consciousness (see those above that drip with sarcasm and those sprinkled with such bons mots as “fucking moron”).

show-off — that by parading one’s sophistication, wryness, and condescension, Etha will be impressed.

I’d say neither patient reasoning (especially the ostensible sort disguising self-applause) nor stern retaliation would be effective with Kenny. Apparently, he’s coming from a fundamentalist point of view. The unraveling of that will take years, if not decades, of slow self-deconditioning. And maybe never. Subtle experience and the outgrowth of an inherent respect for truth will be his likely methods for shedding self-contradictory and hard-hearted dogma.

But of course, this thread is about Chick Tracts. Even the fusillades of jackasses and show-offs should be welcome in the fight against such insidious and absurd devilry.

I’d say neither patient reasoning (especially the ostensible sort disguising self-applause) nor stern retaliation would be effective with Kenny. Apparently, he’s coming from a fundamentalist point of view. The unraveling of that will take years, if not decades, of slow self-deconditioning.

I think it depends on what you mean by “effective.” Immediate results? Of course not. But how does one jump-start or begin the slow unraveling that will take years, if not with patient reasoning?

Give Kenny a bit more credit. What you’ve been interpreting as “parading one’s sophistication” is not necessarily whizzing over his head — nor can you assume it’s intended to. The fairly common “guys, you can’t teach a pig to sing” sort of objection is, in its own way, just as insulting as the “you’re a jackass” approach.

Oh my, this just BEGS to be parodied. Little annoying know-it-all Tyler is homeschooled by his fundie mum. Of course, “goo” should be replaced with “God”. And to “Where does the god come from?”, the answer should be “Only God know hat”. The succession of animals should be commented in reference to the days of creation. The fish with legs should be labeled “Tiktaalik”, and have a thought bubble saying: “Of course, I didn’t look at all like this, but this cartoonist is an ignorant”. The monkey should have a comment about “the atheist’s nightmare: the banana”. The book “Evolution” should be titled “My pet T. Rex, by Adam & Eve”. “My hair is blond and I have blue eyes” should be replaced with “I’m born again”. The 3 kids should be labeled “His parents are atheists”, “His dad opposes the Iraq war” and “He sat under the ‘white tree’ in the schoolyard”. When Tyler is on top of the hill, there should be a reference to Moses on Mount Sinai. And when Cathy speaks, he should reply: “Girls are inferior, so shut up”, with a Biblical reference as a footnote, of course. Cathy would lecture him about the “love thy neighbor” and “turn the other cheek” stuff, and Tyler wouldn’t listen because he’s already saved and doesn’t need all this crap.

I’d do it myself if I had the time, but I don’t. Please someone take these ideas!

Writing as a Chick fan here, I thought I’d clear up a couple of points.

Sven DiMilo wrote: “Somebody else doing the art for Jackie these days? ” Actually, this is pretty typical of his style as can be seen in his first, and perhaps most well known tract,”This Was Your Life”. The more polished art that many are familiar with is the work of one Fred Carter.

As for the charges of racism made in previous comments, the aforementioned Mister Carter is Black, and Chick’s work frequently decries racism. On the other hand, the big-nosed, bearded, bespectacled, “gee, don’t i look Jewish” physiognomy is quite common in his (and Carter’s) portrayals of scientists, homosexuals, entertainment industry executives, etc. (You know, the types that are on a specific mission to drag as many of their fellow sinners down to the Lake of fire wih them…).

Finally, Adrienne typed: “Yes, Chick hates Catholics. He’s written at least three anti-Cath tracts” That’s nothing! You shold see His full-size, full-color “CRUSADERS” series, which culminates in a six-issue diatribe which places blame for nearly every evil of the past 700 or so years *splat* on the Vatican’s doorstep. This includes the Nazis, the Communists, AND the Muslims! So there!

And I’ll join in with those who agree that this is pretty stupid, even for a Chick Tract. Thanks for the post, PZ!

Just because you’re all communistic atheists and are going to burn in the lake of fire doesn’t mean I shouldn’t try to save you.

BURN FUCKERS!

Posted by: Kenny | May 5, 2008 12:37 PM

Kenny: “I swears it, St. Peter, I tried to save ’em, but them commie atheist fuckers din’t listen. Where the nachos at?”

St. Peter: “Uh, yeah, about that. Around here, we’re not so keen on the outwardly pious/inwardly psycho types, so you might wanna cool it with that kind of talk. Anyways, you’ll be given a chance to rethink things in limbo for awhile. Now, did you want to sign up for HeavenCare, or do you prefer the private healthcare option?”

Kenny: “Huh? But we’s in heaven, and I ain’t never felt better. Private, I guess.”

St. Peter: “I thought so. Check. Well, here’re your wings–you’ll need them to get around up here–and a listing of all the private angelic surgeons who will attach them for you. Watch out for the two-for-one guys: they’ll stick them on with a wad of wax and leave you fluttering out of feathers on Cloud 6.”

Kenny: “OK, I will. What kinda costs am I lookin’ at here?”

St. Peter: “Hmm, I can’t exactly say. Offhand, the pair shouldn’t set you back more than a half-million limbo years apiece.”

Kenny: “Half a mil apiece? Well, what about private insurance? Can’t I get that?”

St. Peter: “Oh sure. Problem is, all the HMOs and their agents are in hell.”

You should come vacation in Edmonton. We have a mall with like, three rollercoasters, and a river valley with coyotes and deer and a riverboat, and a museum with live bugs in it, and a microbrewery (but there’s a better one in Calgary), and Marshall McLuhan, Tommy Chong, and Boston Pizza were all born here.

I really can’t believe that our very own kind, gentle deluded Kenny, who had previously only wished NDEs on us, is now calling us FUCKERS and telling us to BURN.

Also, word of advice to Kenny and other grammatically-challenged creationists: remember commas when you are addressing someone. It should have been “BURN, FUCKERS!” The way Kenny said it, it sounds like he’s giving us an order to “burn [the] fuckers.” That’s his job, not ours.

The way Kenny said it, it sounds like he’s giving us an order to “burn [the] fuckers.”

Maybe he was. I see a schizm in the near future: Fundamentalist Ultraorthodox Calvinical Kennyites invoking eternal flaming wrath upon the non-believers, with the Reformist Ecclesiastical Kennyist Theological Methodologicalists believing it is their God-appointed duty to light them aflame in the here and now.

I just hope David Heddle is still around to declare himself an authority on the True Meaning of the Book of Kenny?.

I see a schizm in the near future: Fundamentalist Ultraorthodox Calvinical Kennyites invoking eternal flaming wrath upon the non-believers, with the Reformist Ecclesiastical Kennyist Theological Methodologicalists believing it is their God-appointed duty to light them aflame in the here and now.

The tooth fairy is an entirely Anglo-American phenomenon. She’s completely unknown elsewhere; I’m not even aware of any analog.

Let’s not exaggerate – the anthropomorphic tooth fairy is probably American-influenced but was known in Finland decades ago. And the fairy evolved from the tooth mouse that’s still alive and well in several countries. Don’t know about Saudi Arabia, though.

The constant buzzing headache makes it hard to think. Harder than usual. If you’re starting to suspect that my IQ has finally slipped below 100 (and we all knew it was coming, didn’t we?) now you know why.

Not quite what I ordered with two days left in the semester. Ah well. Worse things have happened, that’s for sure. π

“This is so awfully, horribly bad that I must get my hands on a print copy.”

Hey–I like Jack Chick comics! The pages are nice and soft, and the perfect size. I like to ask anyone distributing them for lots of extra copies to hang in the outhouse.

I’ve enjoyed Chick’s lies on behalf of God ever since, as a departing Catholic, I got a-hold of one of his comics that claimed Catholics were damned because they worshiped Mary, and that the letter “IHS” on the communion host stood for “Isis, Horus, and Set”.

The constant buzzing headache makes it hard to think. Harder than usual. If you’re starting to suspect that my IQ has finally slipped below 100 (and we all knew it was coming, didn’t we?) now you know why.

I once had a roommate who convinced me to try snorting garlic juice to clear out my sinuses.

once.

The aromatic oils in garlic must first react with the stomach juices before its therapeutic ability to relieve inflamed sinus tissue can begin. The aromatic oils vaporize in the stomach, and escape through the esophagus, and pass into the upper respiratory system, where the oils are then absorbed through the mucus lining. Applying garlic directly to the mucus membrane causes far more harm than good, especially since members of the genus Allium tend to store sulfuric acid in their tissues.

This is why you need to eat more garlic.

Oh, please, no more!

People have been using garlic to ward off sinusitis, the common cold, influenza, mosquitoes, ghosts, vampires, demons, The Devil, warlocks, witches, emo-goths, and Amway salespeople for the last 10,000 years.