He was bad to start the season, and every criticism of that is valid. He was much better when he was split from michalek, and was actually really good when letang was out with a concussion. Then, when letang came back he sucked again, but so did everyone else.

I don't care about the criticisms of his play for the first half of the year. But singling him out for his performance in the playoffs is unfair

However you can't win a cup with 3 rookie defenseman in the lineup. We need him...

Do you really think that (2) rookie D + Martin could gives us a much better shot at winning a cup as opposed to (3) rookie D minus Martin?

Yes, I do.

My issue comes with seeing the team, even with 2 rookies and Martin, as being a true contender for a cup. When you already have 2 rookies eating playoffs minutes (if that is the hypothetical in question), what huge difference is Paul Martin going to make in putting that team over the top to beat a team like the LA Kings?

EDIT: And, ftr, I'd be saying this exact same statement if Paul was everything we all built him up to be in 2010, as opposed to what he's turned out to be for us.

Last edited by sil on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Idoit40fans wrote:Relating to the LA Kings issue, there is no way they repeat. Came together at the perfect time just like the Pens when they won the cup. I expect their ceiling to be a repeat of the Pens' follow up.

Their defense (which is still pretty much intact) and netminding was very good all year. The offense turned it on late in the year. It'll be tough to repeat, but they didn't lose a whole lot of what made them very good.

Idoit40fans wrote:Relating to the LA Kings issue, there is no way they repeat. Came together at the perfect time just like the Pens when they won the cup. I expect their ceiling to be a repeat of the Pens' follow up.

Their defense (which is still pretty much intact) and netminding was very good all year. The offense turned it on late in the year. It'll be tough to repeat, but they didn't lose a whole lot of what made them very good.

Doesn't matter, its just so hard to play that way for so long. I could see them having a season(month-to-month record-wise) to what the Pens did this year and then a disappointing playoff. I expect it actually.

DelPen wrote:Martin carries the puck all the time, what makes you say he isn't allowed to carry it? If anything he skates it to much into the offensive zone and gets caught out of position more than any other defensemen in the 2nd half last year.

I'm making the comparison to what Martin did in New Jersey. Martin would carry it from behind the net into the offensive zone...with us, it's not consistent with the Pens often depending on the forwards from their own blueline and forward. More centralized puck-lugging takes place when "transition" lines or "scoring" lines are on the ice as opposed to the grinders certainly, but Martin isn't as effectively used as he could be in that regard.

DelPen wrote:Martin carries the puck all the time, what makes you say he isn't allowed to carry it? If anything he skates it to much into the offensive zone and gets caught out of position more than any other defensemen in the 2nd half last year.

I'm making the comparison to what Martin did in New Jersey. Martin would carry it from behind the net into the offensive zone...with us, it's not consistent with the Pens often depending on the forwards from their own blueline and forward. More centralized puck-lugging takes place when "transition" lines or "scoring" lines are on the ice as opposed to the grinders certainly, but Martin isn't as effectively used as he could be in that regard.

I agree with both statements but, even if coaching strategy were modified to make the most of Martin's ability to carry the puck, his offensive ceiling is pretty much retricted to just that - carrying the puck then looking lost when crossing the other blue line. Or has an undisclosed injury limited his ability to shoot harder than an arthritic 70 year old?Martin at his best is a safer defensive bet than the rookie option, but not key to a Cup run, and is somewhat detrimental to the team if his form follows last season. I'd be happy to run with the rookies if a vet can be obtained by the deadline, and who knows - perhaps one of the rookies will shine?

DelPen wrote:Martin carries the puck all the time, what makes you say he isn't allowed to carry it? If anything he skates it to much into the offensive zone and gets caught out of position more than any other defensemen in the 2nd half last year.

I'm making the comparison to what Martin did in New Jersey. Martin would carry it from behind the net into the offensive zone...with us, it's not consistent with the Pens often depending on the forwards from their own blueline and forward. More centralized puck-lugging takes place when "transition" lines or "scoring" lines are on the ice as opposed to the grinders certainly, but Martin isn't as effectively used as he could be in that regard.

I agree with both statements but, even if coaching strategy were modified to make the most of Martin's ability to carry the puck, his offensive ceiling is pretty much retricted to just that - carrying the puck then looking lost when crossing the other blue line. Or has an undisclosed injury limited his ability to shoot harder than an arthritic 70 year old?Martin at his best is a safer defensive bet than the rookie option, but not key to a Cup run, and is somewhat detrimental to the team if his form follows last season. I'd be happy to run with the rookies if a vet can be obtained by the deadline, and who knows - perhaps one of the rookies will shine?

There's this thing called passing that the kids are doing, these days.

Froggy wrote:He was bad to start the season, and every criticism of that is valid. He was much better when he was split from michalek, and was actually really good when letang was out with a concussion. Then, when letang came back he sucked again

He is already split from Michalek.So, all we need to do is to make sure Tanger is concussed and PM will not be a liability anymore. Easy.

DelPen wrote:Martin carries the puck all the time, what makes you say he isn't allowed to carry it? If anything he skates it to much into the offensive zone and gets caught out of position more than any other defensemen in the 2nd half last year.

I'm making the comparison to what Martin did in New Jersey. Martin would carry it from behind the net into the offensive zone...with us, it's not consistent with the Pens often depending on the forwards from their own blueline and forward. More centralized puck-lugging takes place when "transition" lines or "scoring" lines are on the ice as opposed to the grinders certainly, but Martin isn't as effectively used as he could be in that regard.

I agree with both statements but, even if coaching strategy were modified to make the most of Martin's ability to carry the puck, his offensive ceiling is pretty much retricted to just that - carrying the puck then looking lost when crossing the other blue line. Or has an undisclosed injury limited his ability to shoot harder than an arthritic 70 year old?Martin at his best is a safer defensive bet than the rookie option, but not key to a Cup run, and is somewhat detrimental to the team if his form follows last season. I'd be happy to run with the rookies if a vet can be obtained by the deadline, and who knows - perhaps one of the rookies will shine?

There's this thing called passing that the kids are doing, these days.

When you carry the puck as the first player in the zone as a defenseman and there are 4 players behind you, those players have defensive responsibility. They fill in the spot until the defensive player gets back into play. That is hockey 101. he is not out of position like many of you keep saying. He actually carried the puck quite a bit from end to end n New Jersey on 5 on 5 and on the PP. And did that quite well. But in Pittsburghs, there game plan they want the defenseman to pass the puck to the far blue line to be tipped into the zone, give up the puck, and let the forwards try to get it again. Really bad philosophy IMO to give up the puck. but it is the penguins game plan. There are some players that like to pass the puck tape to tape, like Malkin and Martin being one of them. Until one of the rookies can play 22-25 minutes against Martin St. Louis, Vinny, Kovalchuk and do well , i for one would not give him up. Actually last year there were about 2 very good months when Z and Letang were out in succession when Orpik and Martin were on the PK and i believe at the time were the top in the NHL or close to it.

Mongoose87 wrote:There's this thing called passing that the kids are doing, these days.

So why does Martin keep 'passing' to the opposition goalie? Point is Martin is a smooth skating puck carrier with a good first pass. As hockeymon said the system dictates flinging the puck up for a tip in at the blue line, therefore not using him effectively. It's like going to work and being told to do things you're not good at, then being criticised for not being good at them. Martin needs a massive confidence boost and I doubt that will happen here.