Simply artistic license? (*shocked*). Surely not!! (*grin*) Though it's undeniable that they HAD to put the wolves in. Not only would ardent fans instantly guess what was going on, but they'd lose all the wolfy bits of the battle.

Agreed, your suggestion is a bit wobbly canon-wise, but I like the general tenor of it. If in this case NOTHING the werewolves do could possibly change the future, then theoretically Alice's vision should firm up, because all the indeterminacy they usually introduce has been eliminated. All possible futures are the same -- so she should be able to see it.

Well, she should be able to see the non-wolf parts of it. I think there's still a problem about how she could see the wolves themselves, since obviously their particular part in the vision must still depend on their future choices.

The real problem here, seems to me, is Stephenie's decision all those years ago to allow wolves to wipe Alice's visions of EVERYONE out. I guess she needed it to get the plot of NM rolling (if Alice sees Bella surface after cliff diving, the rest of NM is toast), but it's basically a headache going forwards....

*waves hi*

“When did you ever promise to kill yourself falling out of Charlie’s tree?”

Right now, I don't think I'm ever going to find an explanation for it that'll satisfy me.

Wolves involved = Alice shouldn't see the vision at all. Having Aro being the centerpoint and then being able to see the wolves, not working for me either

I get why it was chosen to do it this way. I LOVED the scene. I didn't mind at all when I was watching. It doesn't destroy the fun for me. But unless SM comes up with a darn good explanation, It'll keep bugging me I think...

Saw BD2 twice on 11/16/12 and once on 11/17/12. Overall I LOVED it. Although, I feel everything before Alice drops the vase went too fast and the PAINFUL twist/vision-battle was brilliantly done (once I saw Carlisle charge I thought “vision” and once he was decapitated I thought “yep, definitely vision” and even though I knew I was watching a vision it was SOOOO PAINFUL to watch). Moving on, the sunny meadow scene was lovely although, I wish that Bella & Edward would have sparkled in this scene, I think it could have been an even nicer ending still. The extra scene giving homage to ALL the actors in the entire Saga was beautifully done, very unique, I loved it (although they did forget to mention the actors that played the Quiluete Indians from the first Twilight movie).

I thought Jacob laughed too hard (which made me laugh) and I thought Aro’s laugh was psycho-like (made me laugh harder). I thought the music from the opening credits was nice but it did not blend well when it cut into the music from the first scene.

I loved the cottage love scene, talk about up close and personal.

I LOVED how Edward, Bella, Jacob & Alice fought in the vision-battle. FABULOUS.

Everything else I pretty much LOVED or could live with. ****************************************************************************As for the VERY interesting conversation going on here, the following are just my errant thoughts:

I have another alternative theory as to why we saw the wolves and Renesmee clearly in the vision-battle scene. Although we saw Alice’s battle-vision clearly, we technically don’t know that the vision didn’t have the blind spots for the characters (Aro and Edward) viewing her vision in the film/story. The vision in the NM-movie led us into Alice’s eyes, BD2’s battle-vision did not. So I'm going with the wolves and Renesmee were blind spots for Alice, Aro and Edward, and everyone else wasn't. As for Alice’s vision of Jacob & Renesmee’s future (which by the way I just absolutely LOVE), again I’m going to assume we saw the clear version and Alice & Edward saw Jacob and Renesmee as blind spots and Edward & Alice assumed the blind spots were Jacob & Renesmee, being that Edward and Bella were so happy and in La Push (I think it was the La Push beach). For my peace of mind, I’m choosing to believe the blind spots are there though there were no blind spots for us. It’s weak, I know, it’s what works for me.

I have a question about BD the book, if Alice can’t see Renesmee and Jacob how could she had known that 1. they needed passports and 2. because they were going to be the only ones who would have survived?

Jazz Girl – I agree with your theory, I think the vision-battle is the fight that Alice decided will happen if they do fight. I think Aro would definitely catch Alice’s lies BUT as you point out I think Alice can manipulate future outcomes to suit her. I think if Alice would have seen that Aro would have attacked in reality, Alice was determined to kick him and make the vision a reality and she didn’t care if Aro knew it. She used Aro’s desire (to attack) to plan accordingly. The girl came prepared, she had a plan A and a plan B and she didn’t care if Aro knew what they were. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Alice’s battle-vision also worked because Alec did not get a chance to use his gift and so Aro really didn’t know how powerful Bella’s gift was. Hmmm. Maybe that’s why they had Alec use his powers before the battle being that he wasn’t going to use it in the vision-battle or later. Also, IMO, I think the vision-battle we saw was the battle that would have happened in the book, if SM would have chosen to end the book with an epic battle.

Openhome – I agree with your theory as well. The battle-vision was meant for Aro to have an incentive not fight, as you say the wolves were a side product. I actually think all the half-breeds in Alice’s visions will always be a side product. She will always have to see around them because they will always be blind spots in her vision.

December – Hi. SM needs Alice’s blind spot not only in NM but in EC to help Edward trust Bella’s judgment with Jacob and the wolves and in BD at least five times (that I could count): Bella’s pregnancy; the imprinting; including Charlie in the Cullen family (in the book, when Charlie comes over Alice is able to now see around the blind spots); Renesmee’s mysterious future and who would have thought Alice was going to find Nahuel, another blind spot, to save the day.

[**Random thought just popped in my head**] I totally missed the main clue, AGAIN. I should have known, any battle in BD2 was going to be a vision. The Merchant of Venice was in the trailer and in the film, and I missed it AGAIN.

Openhome wrote:Then again, it could simply be artistic license used by the art department and director because it worked better than having the wolves disappear and everyone KNOW it's a vision. It would have been a dead giveaway. One of the only places on earth where they will be called on it is here on the Lex, and they knew that.

Absolutely. That is the real reason for it!

Openhome wrote:Here is the reason they had to ignore canon: Alice doesn't see what she has never been. The wolves intervention completely eradicated her vision of the Newborn army in Eclipse. There is NO way that she could have seen the battle at all once the wolves were involved.

While this is stated in the books, even in the books these stringent requirements seem to lessen as time goes on. Yes, in the fight with the newborns Alice can't see the section where the wolves are fighting at all. However, in BD, she lets Bella hold Renesmee while Charlie is visiting and tries to see around her. This suggests that she can see some of Bella even while she is sitting close to Renesmee. Alice also allows three wolves to stay in the room, although she tells them to move to the side. This makes me think it's at least possible for Alice to see some sections of the fight with the Volturi if a wolf is not directly involved in that section.

Last edited by Tornado on Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Openhome wrote:Here is the reason they had to ignore canon: Alice doesn't see what she has never been.

While this is stated in the books, even in the books these stringent requirements seem to lessen as time goes on. Yes, in the fight with the newborns Alice can't see the section where the wolves are fighting at all. However, in BD, she lets Bella hold Renesmee while Charlie is visiting and tries to see around her. This suggests that she can see some of Bella even while she is sitting close to Renesmee. Alice also allows three wolves to stay in the room, although she tells them to move to the side. This makes me think it's at least possible for Alice to see some sections of the fight with the Volturi if a wolf is not directly involved in that section.

What I meant by that first statement is that Alice can't see a future that contains the hybrids and wolves because she cannot see them at all. They leave blank spots, and if they are too involved, the whole thing vanishes. They don't stop her visions like some kind of shield, they simply make the future disappear because Alice can't see what their actions will lead to. Remember, her visions are at least partially based on the decisions of others. She can't see their decisions or the ramifications of those choices, so the whole battle would have simply vanished.

Tornado wrote:This makes me think it's at least possible for Alice to see some sections of the fight with the Volturi if a wolf is not directly involved in that section.

This is exactly what I was saying about the possibility of her seeing the wolves and Renesmee, and really the whole heartbreaking battle. She was showing Aro HIS future. None of the wolves were directly involved in his fate, so they weren't blind spots. This also allowed Alice to see the future through Aro's eyes, and Aro most definitely sees them. The wolves don't make him blind, they are simply a background to his demise, just like the trees and snow.

And the forward future of Jacob and Renesmee? Um, yeah. There's no really good answer for that one that fits in the canon we are given. However, I guess fighting along side the wolves, or holding Renesmee as a baby may have allowed her to see their future more clearly. So we'll just go with that.

Openhome wrote:This is exactly what I was saying about the possibility of her seeing the wolves and Renesmee, and really the whole heartbreaking battle. She was showing Aro HIS future. None of the wolves were directly involved in his fate, so they weren't blind spots. This also allowed Alice to see the future through Aro's eyes, and Aro most definitely sees them. The wolves don't make him blind, they are simply a background to his demise, just like the trees and snow.

No, that still doesn't make sense. Even if she is showing Aro his future and no wolves are involved in that, she still can't see the wolves generally, so they shouldn't be there. Why would they suddenly appear just because she's showing Aro his death, especially if they weren't even involved in his death? There would be no reason to include them at all in that scenario, as they had nothing to do with what Alice was trying to communicate. Not to mention that it's clear that Aro's death is not her focus - that's why we see so many other people dying.

If the vision is going to be that specific (i.e. focused solely on Aro's fate) that's all we should have seen. But she's clearly showing the outcome of the battle, so there should be no wolves or Renesmee. And there's no evidence that there are any exceptions that suggest she can see what the wolves and Renesmee are doing at any point in any vision. She might be able to see around them, but it still seems clear, even in those cases, that they block her vision to a certain extent with blind spots. That's why she wants them out of the way, so she can see clearly, rather than have blind spots in her vision. Remember, too, when they were practicing for the arrival of the newborns in Eclipse? Edward said that Alice was upset because the wolves were coming and she couldn't see "what will happen now", yet the wolves were not involved in the practice, they were only watching.

I think it's safe to say that they --which includes Stephenie-- decided to forgo canon for entertainment purposes. We can try to find "reasons" around it, but there isn't one. If it had been a shotty job, I'd have issues, but it was beyond spectacular so for that I will embrace it.

I am placed in an unusual position here. It's usually someone else that tells me to wave the hand and not worry about things fitting exactly.

As far as Nessie vs. Wolves, same effect on Alice's visions, but I always thought the wolves were especially disruptive, winking in and out of existence as magical creatures.

December, Tornado, good points about the limits on Alice's visions. Stephenie does appear to have tried, even in the books, to push a little on those limitations that the half-breeds introduce.

However, the bottom line, in my opinion, is that they just threw that canon out like yesterday's garbage. The utility of blocks in Alice's visions had outrun its usefulness, at least as far as the movie.

Amanda Beth, same here, that's my exact opinion.

They wanted a battle, so they got one. Pure and simple.

Stephenie might try to retrofit an explanation. It would be a delicious lie, and I'll love her for it. She's the author, so her explanation would have to be accepted as canon, but she would be a beautiful liar. Except, she can't be, she's the author. I love it.

**************************

BTW, screwed up on a Bella shield assumption, it was actually pretty close to canon. She does have the ability to protect everyone, she did against multiple Jane targets. It's just that fighting and shielding can't be done at the same time yet, so she alternates, which is why Jane can pick off a few targets when Bella is battling.

Carlisle's decapitation makes a lot of sense. This is why the Cullens attack. I think Edward takes off first? That also rocks the audience back into their seats and turns their thoughts into mental goo. Well played. No wonder Bella joins the battle.

Did anyone pick up on the nuance of Leah saving Esme? This is one reason why they have to have a battle. Esme treated Leah and Seth as family, showing great consideration and kindness. Leah wouldn't even wear the clothes given her or eat her food. This is Leah showing she understands at the end that at least Esme is worthy of giving up her own life for. Leah doesn't slip and fall, her pulling off Esme's attacker was all sacrificial, there wasn't a hope for her once she took that leap.

Don't tell me for one second that that just happened and Stephenie wasn't sending a message. She had her fingers in everything going on in that battle, and I love her for it.

This is the great thing about that last battle. In the book, SM finally elevated her characters above the story itself. She loved her characters more than the story and couldn't let any of them die. Now, in the movie, she can continue to tell the story and reveal even more about her characters while still keeping them ultimately safe.

Marcus finally gets his wish. Bella and Edward team up beautifully on Aro. I couldn't have asked for more. I think that was a Kasumi-style Dead or Alive tap dance on Aro's head. Cool, very cool, I was ready to get my Xbox controller out and have Bella do a back-kick.

Alistair and Garrett and the Romanians, loved them.

Edward escaping the chasm and busting through boulders and then taking out Demetri was sweet. Edward was the man.

Was that final vision shot from the view of Aro, or at least Aro's head? Nicely done. It looks ominous for our young lovers in that final scene, but that's when Stephenie finally says ENOUGH!

"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

In the fight with the wolves in BD1 it was also Leah who jumped into the fight first... right now I can't remember who she saved but I think it was Alice...However I did like the fact that Leah saves Esme...

On the Wolves in the vision... one of my friends who doesn't read the books told me she assumed that Alice's visions were tied to Bella and her future. Not to the wolves or Renesmee. So the fact that Alice couldn't see the wolves in NM was because Bella's future was so uncertain, that she couldn't see Renesmee because it was bound to Bella's life and with the battle the outcome was that Bella would survive so her future was set and so she could see everything else involved as well...I told my friend the truth about how SM explained why Alice couldn't see the wolves but she didn't understand it, in her mind the movie idea she created was much simpler...

Openhome wrote:Now, here is one possible way out I thought of (it is weak since SM made it pretty clear the wolves made all futures invisible to Alice): She was showing Aro HIS future, not just that of the Cullens. Aro had made up his mind to attack. If he hadn't, the future would not have been clear.

That is an other good explanation which I liked very much...I hadn't thought of this before...

Openhome wrote:It isn't exactly the first time one of the movies altered canon a bit. Can I hear an ?

You know for the first time I can live with the alteration from the canon... I understand that they had to make the movie more exciting than in the book and I understand that they have to make the movie epic to sell it... I am just so bloody happy that they choose to give up the science of Alice's visions instead of really killing a Cullen... It could have been so, so, so much worse...

These violent delights, have violent endings...Like fire and gunpowder, they consume what they kiss