Snapping bite ignoring armor is pretty illogical when you look at it. Four of the five tank classes can handle it just fine as they have damage reduction mechanics that apply to it such as absorb, block, shuffle. Druids are put at a significant disadvantage because we're given armor to make up for our lack of block or absorbs. So an ability that is affected by everything but armor is a hefty oversight when there's a tank class that is designed around having significantly more armor than others to make up for the lack of block/absorb/shuffle.

We're designed to SD around it and use FR as necessary - the actual Bite itself is also dodgeable. You'd require 2 melee hits plus a Bite to actually die to the mechanic.

Also, 32% of weapon damage sounds correct as an armor ignoring mechanic. I know I can survive 3 stacks of talon rake on heroic 25 jikun with no CDs at all, they're reduced to 0, ~150k, ~100k when I use CDs.

and reading it at 32% weapon damage. It's Effect 2 - 175% weapon damage, and that's also exactly what the Dungeon Journal reports as well. Effect 1 applies the damage modifier (with an ID or whatever of 32), to the value of 50, meaning that Effect 1 is the 50% damage taken from Talon Rake debuff.

That looks like weakened blows + tank passive damage reduction, although its really hard to be sure as our armor is too low. Best bet is to have a bear post his biggest triple puncture taken. (I know in 10N I was taking 300k+ triples on my alt Druid with sub10 stacks). It's really hard to determine with a low damage instance as you could've just crit blocked it or something.

Snapping bite ignoring armor is pretty illogical when you look at it. Four of the five tank classes can handle it just fine as they have damage reduction mechanics that apply to it such as absorb, block, shuffle. Druids are put at a significant disadvantage because we're given armor to make up for our lack of block or absorbs. So an ability that is affected by everything but armor is a hefty oversight when there's a tank class that is designed around having significantly more armor than others to make up for the lack of block/absorb/shuffle.

We're designed to SD around it and use FR as necessary - the actual Bite itself is also dodgeable. You'd require 2 melee hits plus a Bite to actually die to the mechanic.

Except on heroic 25 man when it hits for 886,600. (after mitigations that druids have, 700k) When dodge fails, (which it will) you end up eating something that will one shot you or very closely one shot you if you don't have any absorbs up. DKs have extra health, paladins and warriors have block, and monks have shuffle to reduce the risk of dieing from this attack. The point is, the other tank classes get a 200k health pool cushion to help ensure they live while druids have no breathing room.

Except on heroic 25 man when it hits for 886,600. (after mitigations that druids have, 700k) When dodge fails, (which it will) you end up eating something that will one shot you or very closely one shot you if you don't have any absorbs up. DKs have extra health, paladins and warriors have block, and monks have shuffle to reduce the risk of dieing from this attack. The point is, the other tank classes get a 200k health pool cushion to help ensure they live while druids have no breathing room.

On Heroic 25-man, you can and should have far more than 700k health.You're also missing two major mechanics, one of which is much easier to access in 25-man.

I find it hilarious how everyone is latching onto triple puncture and similar mechanics saying paladins can take half of it off with SotR and completely ignores how monks have stagger that functions in the same way, except most times a few points higher and is totally passive.

A protadin at only 5k mastery / 55% SotR reduction: (15+59+55)=84%, or 65% without SotR

Unless you're against a specific mechanic that ignores armor, they're going to work the same way.

What is that protadin sacrificing to reach that level of mitigation? Because by going full mastery you're trading off a lot of damage, some avoidance and taking more damage overall through less purified stagger - which doesn't really matter considering it's pretty much "counter-overhealing".

I'm not saying going full mastery is wrong, you gotta do what you gotta do to go through progression. But it's a costy way to reach their level.

It's true that once physical damage becomes unavoidable Paladins have a slight edge in that we have the equivalent of a strong cool down available if we pool 3 Holy Power for it, but by holding onto our SoTR we take melee swings for the full damage.

Having done ToT there have been quite a few fights where I felt like I can single tank them, but I also feel like any tank with a Paladin in the raid could. Saving my full judgment for Heroics though.

I don't see touching protection paladins as at least one of the other specs is suffering significantly. Warriors are in an awesome spot as well atm. I don't hear anyone qq-ing about warriors either.

Warriors aren't close to being in the same position as a Paladin.

And I say this thinking that Warriors are in a great position right now.

I'm okay with not nerfing one of my tank brother's classes and seeing us all rise to their greatness. And I'm okay with nerfing some portion of their raid utility or personal survival to lower themselves to other classes.

Personally, I prefer the buff everything approach because I hate asking for nerfs.

Without ShoTR up we do take a good chunk more damage than other tanks, so the problem isn't so much ShoTR, it's the fact our AM mitigates the unavoidable.

Do we up Paladin's passive mitigation and reduce the damage reduction of SoTR? That might be one way to get Paladins to gravitate towards Mastery over Haste to get SoTR back to a decent number.

It's almost the same problem they had with nerfing Haste. Ultimately they didn't outright trash it because Haste was doing what it was suppose to do. In this case ShoTR is doing what it's suppose to do, but maybe too well.

That looks like weakened blows + tank passive damage reduction, although its really hard to be sure as our armor is too low. Best bet is to have a bear post his biggest triple puncture taken. (I know in 10N I was taking 300k+ triples on my alt Druid with sub10 stacks). It's really hard to determine with a low damage instance as you could've just crit blocked it or something.

Also, 32% of weapon damage sounds correct as an armor ignoring mechanic. I know I can survive 3 stacks of talon rake on heroic 25 jikun with no CDs at all, they're reduced to 0, ~150k, ~100k when I use CDs.

There are logs of tanks stacking the TP up to 18-19 stacks before using Bubble/HoP. Not a problem.

I'm interested in seeing the math of it all.

It's true that once physical damage becomes unavoidable Paladins have a slight edge in that we have the equivalent of a strong cool down available if we pool 3 Holy Power for it, but by holding onto our SoTR we take melee swings for the full damage.

Having done ToT there have been quite a few fights where I felt like I can single tank them, but I also feel like any tank with a Paladin in the raid could. Saving my full judgment for Heroics though.

You can get to 5 HoPo and then just use 3 and bank the others for when Triple Puncture is about to come off CD. It's on a strict cooldown, and only is delayed when he does some other ability, like swipe or charge.

You can get to 5 HoPo and then just use 3 and bank the others for when Triple Puncture is about to come off CD. It's on a strict cooldown, and only is delayed when he does some other ability, like swipe or charge.

I'm...well aware of that. My point is by banking any Holy Power you do lose some ShoTRs over the course of a fight. We mitigate Spike damage very well, but in exchange we take more overall damage.

I'm...well aware of that. My point is by banking any Holy Power you do lose some ShoTRs over the course of a fight. We mitigate Spike damage very well, but in exchange we take more overall damage.

No you don't.

You at worst have a 2-3 second time lapse near the start*, but unless you are actually wasting Holy Power by using generators while you have 5 HP, you will not lose any HP.

*(and you don't have to sit there waiting to 5; it's a bad idea to do that even, you can slowly go up to 4 then 5 only during periods you aren't in danger like when he's doing ZERO damage to you during his first Double Swipe)

Blizzard could easily fix that fight by having TP on a CD instead of a timer, and shorten the CD (and reduce the damage to compensate for a shorter CD). If you can't reliably predict something with ShoR, then it might be more fair.

BoPing it off isn't really an issue IMO, because you can tank swap and lose nothing from tank swapping. There is literally no advantage to keeping the same tank on Horridon.

To address one thing though - healing aggro: Judgment of Light (the old one, back when Sapphiron in T7 was current content) was made to generate 0 threat, because pally tanks would just judge it and have absurd threat by doing nothing out of the ordinary. I could see them making Sacred Shield and Seal of Insight generate 0 threat for the same reasons.

If we're talking strictly about Horridon I agree with you, but as it's been pointed out Paladins are strongest on a few other fights where the boss doesn't stop to do things like Double Swipe.

We're talking about you making a silly statement like " My point is by banking any Holy Power you do lose some ShoTRs over the course of a fight. We mitigate Spike damage very well, but in exchange we take more overall damage." when it's 100% not true.

On any other fight, you can do exactly the same thing, and also get just as many ShoR's out banking during periods of no danger, bosses always do something, so it works with holding off on hitting a ShoR because you happened to notice you're at 100% health or just got a Parry. There is no such thing as losing ShoR's over a fight unless you are wasting Holy Power after hitting 5. Ever.

Even on Horridon there are several gimmicks available to the various classes at the various roles. For example, a DK brings an extra Army to completely trivialise Door 3, which is probably going to be as much of a hurdle if not more than "I faceplanted because I didn't have a cooldown last time so I'll just have all my cooldowns available this time and fix it". On other fights there are even more things to bring to the table, such as kiting Bats, or Avoidance working to counter ramping dot mechanics like on Ji'Kun, which in turn buy you additional leeway on Nests, or the ability to 1-tank Heroic Council (it has been done).

To address one thing though - healing aggro: Judgment of Light (the old one, back when Sapphiron in T7 was current content) was made to generate 0 threat, because pally tanks would just judge it and have absurd threat by doing nothing out of the ordinary. I could see them making Sacred Shield and Seal of Insight generate 0 threat for the same reasons.

JoL was a different kettle of fish though. At least with SoI and stuff, you have to actually attack something or tank something to have the Vengeance to power decent healing.

With JoL, you judged, went and hid in the corner and a few seconds later Sapphiron turned around and went "I WANT TO TASTE YOUR MEATS"

That first melee hit, if unblocked, would almost fully consume SBr. SotR can cover both.

SotR can "cover" both but won't really amount to substantially more reduction in total than SBr against those two swings. Absorbing the first 300k hit and getting hit by the second ~320k hit vs. reducing 150k off the first hit and 150k off the second hit are really pretty similar. Note that warriors also have 10% more damage reduction from their stance and 10% more armor from items, so the size of the hits against them will be smaller to start with. (Conversely, their stam modifier is 10% smaller, but 10% damage reduction and 10% more armor from items is most assuredly stronger.)

Not that I'm complaining about the paladin setup, mind you, but SBr doesn't really seem inferior to SotR in this situation.