Oh wow, what a coincidence. I was just looking at the Ghostlands (zone) page, and read what you just mentioned, and I came to the same conclusion. I added that theory to the "Speculation" part of #3, then came here and saw that you had already said something about it. Weird. :)

now that you mention it the gaurdians of tirisfal had to get there power from somewhere and the high elves had seats on the first council couldn't they have learned to some how siphon its power into the chosen gaurdian after they must be called the gaudians of TIRISFAL for a reason right?

just a theory --(DJ)6/18/06

I'm not sure of the relevance or not, but on the quest "Prison Break In", the Bloodstones that were stolen from "The Forsaken", whose base of operations is located in tirisfal, are mentioned in Belamoore's Research Journal to contain the blood of an Old God. Maybe one has nothing to do with the other, but it seems to be at least hinting at it. --Phreneticusxiii Sept 2006

""The Forgotten One has since been killed by Arthas."" And perhaps 'reused' as undead? CJ 03:39, 10 Feb 2006 (EST)

Doesn't seem likely given the fact that the body of the forgotten one didn't seem the best sort of thing you would want to raise....

Arthas defeated the Forgotten One, but just like C'Thun, who was defeated, he may not be dead. Honestly, without the Lich Kings powers, I find it doubtful that Arthas and Anub killed an Old God. Simply subdued it.

is C'thun is actually an old god? there's no proof for that, it is sure he is a god but i'm not sure if he's one of the old gods. he's conacction to the forgotten ones is a mystery but there is a connection for sure. my theory is that C'thun is much like hakkar: an evil god called by an old empire that spawned with him creatures like hakkar has all those flying serpents then C'thun is the father of the forgotten ones or even just a weak soldier in an ancient dark army from the depths of lorderon. it is all a mystery to me until we can be sure of C'thun's true origin. btw how do u know that the dead skull in darkshore is the god himself and not a poerful commander?

He's definitely an Old God. He's repeatedly referred to as one, and when you kill him, he drops either the Carapace of the Old God or Husk of the Old God, which are used in quests.

Hakkar is one of the Faceless Ones (you said Forgotten Ones, but I think you meant Faceless Ones). He's very powerful, and apparently was used to bring the Trolls under the control of the Old Gods, but most of them resisted. He was also killed, but was reincarnated as the huge windserpent he is now.

As for the skull, I think the only evidence I've ever seen that it's an Old God has come from this site. I'd like to know where that came from too.

It is with a joyous heart that I greet you, my brethren. For the state of our cult could not be more grand. We are legion. And our goals grow ever closer to fruition. New recruits continue to gather. They sing praise to our lords in Darkshore, they bow in jubilant reverie within the Searing Gorge, they embrace our masters' servant, Aku'mai, in Blackfathom Deeps. Indeed, my brothers and sisters, soon a swarm of the faithful will blanket all of Azeroth!

Here is the text from one of the quests concerning the Husk of the Old God:

The unmentionable Old God slowly awakens from his slumber beneath Ahn'Qiraj. The terrible fate that awaits Azeroth could come in days or years; time has no meaning for beings of his power.[2]

So far, the only connection between the Forgotten One and the Old Gods, however, is its uncanny resemblance to C'Thun, which has only come about recently since AQ came out. Also, the term "Forgotten One" could work for an Old God since they have not been addressed at all in the games except in World of Warcraft thus far. Basically, they were forgotten once the Titans started running things.

One thing to start investigating is their connection with the Burning Legion. Both have similar goals; both, for instance, don't like the Titans very much. It is highly possible that the Burning Legion is working through or cooperating with the Old Gods to bring about another invasion. But, that remains to be seen in Burning Crusade. =c) -- Montag 09:34, 21 March 2006 (EST)

We were told that the Old Gods manipulated the Highborn into contacting the Burning Legion via the first Saytrs. I sort of doubt that they are explicitly on the same side. The Old Gods want their world back and if Arcimonde had had his way the world would have been little more than a barren rock floating in the Twisting Nether. It's possible their cooperating to some extent but on the other hand they would be each other's most powerful rivals which doesn't make for a good alliance. --Darkling235 11:44, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

I went looking for the remains of the the dead old god in Darkshore. There's a quest on the alliance
side in Darkshore to examine a red crystal in the hills. [3] The final quest dialogue [4], "The moonwell water has revealed that embedded inside the crystal are a few small fragments of bone, as well as half of a jawbone. The jawbone appears to be from a humanoid, but it is unclear without breaking open the crystal - a feat that even the strongest of magic would find near impossible." Could it be that this
is the final resting spot of an old god? --Roboyto 05:51, 12 April 2006 (EDT)

The remains of the Old God in Darkshore are in the south, at the Master's Glaive. It was an enormous nautilus-like creature. The Old Gods we have seen are not even remotely humanoid, so there is no reason to think the red crystal contains one.--Aeleas 11:07, 12 April 2006 (EDT)

Yes, I really overlooked that, lol. So Who/What is in the stone and why?

Old gods?Of course not.I've seen in the MPQ archive that the Crytal's texture is named "IllidanCrystal".Maybe it has something to do with Illidan...Xlandhenry

Has anyone considered that this guy might not actually be dead, but merely comatose due to having a large sword embedded in his skull? I'd put him up as the primary candidate for being the Old God responsible for the Nightmare in the Emerald Dream, even. Maitreya

C'thun had defeated a Titan (an hero in Pantheon?).And I can't believe that Lichking Ner'zhu's power was superior to a Titan even an average one.I think the forgotten one may be a servant for the old god in northland.Arthas killed it and arouse its master.The real evil god was anger for undead's goings-on. The god was disturbed and he decided to destroy the new licking and undead force. That's why 4 years long after W3X Arthas has been in Frozen Throne : he isn't facing a powerful human,a orc or a evil demon but a real god .

Actually, it's been 2.5 years, not 4. That is, however, a good point. He could be struggling on 3 fronts (the legion is no doubt trying to come up with a plan to wipe him off the face of azeroth). This could explain his inactivity in game up to this point. He could, however, simply be biding his time.--Haddon 17:38, 22 April 2006 (EDT)

I don't think its necessarily impossible that Arthas killed the "incarnation" of an Old God. I don't really believe that C'Thun was the god in his most powerful form because of all the adjectives around him suggesting "waking" and "[not yet] complete." Remember Arthas even back then would have been on the same level as Thrall or Jaina meaning a powerful raid boss. Two raid bosses (Arthas and Anu'barak) might very well have been able to take down someone like C'Thun especially since they were assited by a host of Crypt Fiends which were probably lvl 60 or so. It's really not all that unlikely.--Darkling235 11:47, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

At that point, Arthas was very weakened. I don't remember exactly, but level-wise, he was at about half of his power as Death Knight back then - and he wasn't joined with Ner'Zhul yet. Remember he took the underground route because he was afraid to take on Illidan. Anyway, what would C'thun be doing that far north, when his abode and main interests were for the last few thousands of years in Silithus? --Potbasher 12:37, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

Yes your right he was only about lvl 5 or so (if i remember correctly) when he fought the forgotten one. Anu'burak wasn't however which was a big advantage. The Forgotten One probably couldn't have BEEN C'Thun but it seems likely that it was another Old God like C'Thun. Remember the Aqir which evolved into the Qiraji and Nerubians were under Old God influence. It would make sense for an Old God to be hiding under the ice. My other reason for beliving that the Forgotten One was the same order as C'Thun is when I first saw the Faceless Ones I immediately remembered H.P. Lovecraft's stories. The squidlike furry amalagrams seem like something he'd write and I don't have a refernce but I believe there was something in one small story he did refer to as faceless ones. C'Thun struck me as a tight take off of Cthulhu (the slumbering evil god and all that) which tells me that blizzard wants us to believe the forgotten one and C'Thun were similar.

Just to get back to power: Arthas was a lvl 5 hero however. So it would be like fighting C'Thun with Thrall, someone half as powerful as a Thrall type raid boss, and several lvl 60 elites representing the Crypt Fiends. I think it was doable the only real question that I have (and no seems to have answered) is was C'Thun or the Forgotten One really at their full power. The Forgotten One must have just been released (by Illidan's spell or by the faceless ones released by Illidan's spell) and most of the words referring to C'Thun suggest a new born. That's the only explanation I can come up with for how not only Arthas could kill one but for how Kel'Thuzad could be substantially stronger that C'Thun. --Darkling235 17:38, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

"In the time before time, when the world was still in its infancy, a battle between a Titan and a being of unimaginable evil and power raged on this very soil. The prophecy is unclear about whether or not the Titan was vanquished in this battle but it illustrates that a Titan fell. An Old God had also fallen - or so it was thought."

Emphasis on "The prophecy is unclear about whether or not the Titan was vanquished in this battle."

Are you sure he dead? Maybe it's rational to explian the "dead" one's existance in dark shore that the god had been dafeated by Titans and he lost his body.

In Warcraft, nothing is ever completely known to be end-all be-all dead. Look at Kel'Thuzad, Medivh, possibly Sargeras, quite possibly Archimonde(in the Emerald Dream, creating the Nightmare). Cenarius still lives, as does Aegwynn. It IS entirely possible he was simply defeated, just as it is possible Arthas only defeated the one in Northred. Or perhaps the Forgotten was only the god's servant. Point is, only Metzen and his crew can decide whos dead, and whos only kind of dead, for the time being.--Haddon 17:38, 22 April 2006 (EDT)

C'Thun uses nature magic... Five Old Gods, Five Aspects... Maybe each Aspect was given the power to keep the Old Gods locked away... One more question comes to mind. C'Thun likely affected the Aqir before the split; he was in the south, so why not the north as well? Perhaps he was 'incomplete' because he was seperated by the continents. However, the Hero's Glaive likely keeps that Old God sealed, unable to escape. Again, that could possibly be the part of C'Thun that kept him from completion. If so, then that means only four are known...

Something came to mind just now. How is it that an army of Titans can only trap an Old God, and yet a bunch of mortals are able to kill them?

If there were 5 Old Gods than this may be a dumb question but since no one seems to be quite clear on the number I'll ask it anyway: Did each Old god have a particular Elemental Lieutenant "Champion?" If so which one was C'Thun's? He doesn't use real elemental magic from what I heard. It's all nature/poison based which isn't a real element.

That's a good question... Ragnaros, Therazane, Neptulon, Al'Akir...
Fire, earth, water, air...nature?
wouldn't that fall under earth? or would it be poison/plague or something

Something else to consider is that maybe C'Thun's fall destroyed his champion, so he wouldn't have one,
and when he changed the Aqir, he didn't need one because he already had an army.

"He doesn't use real elemental magic from what I heard. It's all nature/poison based which isn't a real element."
Actually, in Chinese culture "wood" is an element, so nature could easily be an element to. The real elements are actually all chemicals, like Hydrogen, Oxygen, Helium, etc., so talk of what's a 'real' element or not is foolish. Oh, and remember to tag your posts, so we know who you are.Saimdusan

I didn't see a place to really post complete theories on the old gods so I though it would be a good idea to create one. Anyways... this is what i have come to believe about the current staus of the old gods. its known that one is under the maelstrom so theres that, then we have a "dead" one in darkshore and there is there is c'thun so that leaves two unaccounted for what i strongly believe is this: that the "forgotten one" is definately an old god. given its close proximity to an aqir-descended civilization and that it looks almost exactly like c'thun i think this is undeniable. now to explain how arthas "killed" it i would say that A) it was recently awakend (as evidencd in the campaign)and therefore not as powerful as normal and B) I seriously doubt that any being that is not as strong as a titan can kill an old god so arthas may oly have destroyed its phyical form but not necessarily its spirit or "essence" as for the other unaccounted one i'd say its under tirisfal and is probably also the one corrupting the emerald dream. since it is fairly easy to mentally enter the dream then it would be no problem for an old gond to invade with its mind and spread its influence there. so theres my two cents, please post your other total theories as well becasue i would be very interested to see what the rest of you think --- fronkey

A theory I've heard discussed is that Arthas defeated nothing more than a physical manifestation of an Old God - a fake body, if you will. It is perhaps possible that one of the Old Gods simply put forth its thought and created this body under the nerubian kingdom. Therefor, it would not be an Old God at all, but only the presence of an Old God in a much less powerful body, that Arthas defeated.

But let's follow this logic. Suppose when we "defeated" C'Thun, we may actually... have simply killed another extension of him. C'Thun could, hypothetically, still be out there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peregrine2976(talk · contr).

Mostly just heard ot discussed on the WoW Forums, and blizzard have been their usual mysterious selves about it - "oh well, maybe, but of course maybe not, but it could be, but then it could not"... you know. Because there is no actual evidence to back this theory up, I won't be posting on the Old Gods page, but perhaps on Old Gods speculation... just a theory to think about, nothing more.

Lets look at the facts. The Naga were changed into their snakelike forms by the Old Gods. The Wailing Caverns are crawling with snakes and druids of the fang. Lets also not forget Hakkar. There seem to be a lot of snakes here. Maybe they like snakes. Or maybe it's just one of them. C'thun was a bug guy. Maybe one of them is all about the snakes. Thoughts, anyone? Meneldir

Recently I've been researching the WoW lore that surrounds Old Gods, and given that there's so little stuff on them, I had to look at other lores to try to find connections, because in truth Wow's lore is a compilement of other lores and some editting to make it unique. A large amount of the lore is norse and celtic based however there are a few others. Satyrs for instance originate in Greek mythology. On this note a small thing struck me. I did a little rechecking and found a similarity between the old gods in WoW lore and in Greek Lore. Apparently the Titans in Greek mythology were also called old gods after they were over thrown and also, interestingly, in Greek mythology, the Titans encompassed the elemental aspects of reality(however they themselves weren't made up of the elments they commanded). This is only speculation with little back up, but I'm not posting it here as anything else.Kenneth Koubek 04:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

If you think about it what happened with the Old Gods is this. They were on a world which they may even have created and were doing what they wanted there, when suddenly a bunch of titans come over and decide to make Azeroth more orderly even if the guys who live there liked it as a complete mess. So when the Old Gods tell the Titans to leave the Titans kill and imprison them just because the Old Gods refused to give there land to them. --JarHed 06:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Whats really so bad about that? And the Titans had no right to take Azeroth from the Old Gods. The Titans were invaders and the Old Gods were native Azerothians. Saying it's was ok for the titans to steal Azeroth from the old gods because it didn't fit there idea of perfection is like saying the U.S should invade communist countries because they don't like communism. --JarHed 18:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Now that IRL thing is getting off topic. The old gods were stolen from, but if Rag is any example of the attitude of the way things were, it may have been for the better. Of course, he is fire, and the accounts are from the titans PoV.--SWM2448 21:02, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

What right does the Naaru have in stopping the Burning Legion? The answer is simple...good must fight evil. Old gods = evil, so the Titans came to help. User:Coobra/Sig3 21:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Were they really evil or just disagreeing?--SWM2448 21:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Any creature that claims to be a god and makes you worship them...are evil. Just because you are all powerful, does not make you a god.

The case of the Naaru fighting the burning legion is completely different. The Burning legion is invading and destroying everyone while the Old Gods were just sitting at home and the Naaru are not taking the burning legions homeworld from them are they? What the Naaru are doing is helping people defend themselves from invaders, what the Titans did was invade and destroy what the Old Gods had. The Titans in fact are more like the burning legion than the Old gods because the Burning legion and Titans are both invaders. --JarHed 03:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, here's a better example. Lets say you are the ruler of your house. The animals within are subject to your rule. But you are maligned and treat the animals badly. It's found out what you are doing, so to bring order to the house police come and imprison you so that you could never harm another creature. ... Would that make the police bad guys...invaders... User:Coobra/Sig3 03:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The police are given the authority to do so from the goverment of where your living. In the case of Azeroth the Old Gods were the goverment and so the Titans did not have the right to imprison the Old Gods. It would kind of be like doing something thats against the law in China while in America and having the chinese police throw you into prison anyway even though it's not against the law in America. --Twilight Recruit JarHed 04:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Because his or her mother taught them to always be gracious, Coobrahas awarded you a used pre-owned! and slightly stale cookie.Ewwwwwww. Cockroaches ate half of it.

Of course I win, I'm right. And thanks for the cookie. --Twilight Cultist JarHed 04:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, they were CHAOTIC. They corrupted COUNTLESS beings on the face of Azeroth, they sought to bring in Sargeras into the world and they're corrupting the Emerald Dream. They corrupt people, attack people and try to break out of their bonds which hold them in place as to not cause more destruction. They fought with aggression before the titans knew what was going on. The old gods are HORRIBLE beings and are pure evil. -Ibage

I have things for both sides. How do we even know that the old gods imprisoned the elementals? Where does it say that the Old Gods ever took control of all the elementals on Azeroth? And would the titans have any jurisdiction on what went on there since they made it to be a peaceful place? Or when the titans battled the old gods, was that the first time they set foot on Azeroth? Jclipps 01:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"How do we even know that the old gods imprisoned the elementals?" ... Don't you mean the Titans?User:Coobra/Sig3 01:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Ibage by your logic a country can invade and take control of another country unprovoked, just because they don't agree with the way the government runs things there. And if YOU were imprisoned by an invading army with no chance of ever being released wouldn't you try everything you could to escape? --Twilight Cultist JarHed 01:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Alright look, I RP as a servant of the Old Gods and so far this is what ive come up with for the whole are they really EVIL thing, The Old Gods have been stated to be TRUE Gods, they ruled the entire world of Azeroth and had been happy with that, I am not sure where it says that they ruled with a bloody fist but can we actually believe that? Kay so they made the Legion Come and killed thousands perhaps millions of Night Elves, Tauren, Dwarf and etc... But in there eyes those are the invading army, the Titans made it, just constructs of their enemy! And then they went and summoned Sargeras... To THEIR Realm where he would set them free, and I have the utmost faith that they would triumph over Sargeras in terms of power, even if the Old Gods themselves did not reach his power, they still have their lieutenants and beings such as the Eldritch Deathlord and countless other things... And then lets see, They made the Nightmare in Ysera's realm... Again, the Titans put the Dragons as GUARDIANS of Azeroth - The Dragons set in the ways that the Titans gave them would oppose the Old Gods, they Corrupted Nelthalion for the same reason.

Now lets look at quotes from Old Gods and their minions... "The chaos I have sown here is but a taste...." from Skryiss, That does imply violence and things but perhaps after nearly 15,000 years (Azeroth began at 10K, who knows how long it took Az to be made after their where in prison)the Old Gods get cranky. They have been there alone for who knows how long, stripped of everything they had. Skyriss is probably the same... Rajaxx's quotes seems to imply that he is a 'Avatar of War' And he speaks of Vengeance and Injustice that his ENEMIES will fall. C'thun himself seems to be trying to de-moralize you...

EVERYTHING they have done is to free themselves and SAVE Their Land, they would not let Sargeras go and devour their world... --Shiniki 22:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Point of note, there is some hints in the lore that Old Gods may not be native to Azeroth, and were some kind of ancient cosmic invaders, and have tried to invade other worlds as well, including Draenor at one point.Baggins 18:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

There is something which says they're older than the world too, so they may also have created Azeroth or at least created the first life on it. Also I think their battle with the titans was more Order v.s Chaos than Good v.s Evil, and if you look at the lore you can see that the Titans cannot tolerate or understand chaos, trying to understand it was what drove Sargeras insane. The titans are in fact very limited in their understanding, and they try to destroy what they don't understand. --Twilight Cultist JarHed 19:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Now, They tried to possibly INVADE Draenor as a hope to get themselves free... We don't know if the C'thun thing is an Old God or not , but its highly possible... Older then the World could be referring to the Titan's World... So if the Titan's cant understand Chaos then that would mean that if ANY Titan set foot on Azeroth he would be driven insane by Human Nature or just destroy everyone?--Shiniki 01:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

This thread is starting to assume too much. We do not know what is up with Outland. As for the tians current view of Azeroth, they will 'revisit' it.--SWM2448 02:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The titans would only be driven insane by chaos if they tried to understand it, but other than that something like that could happen. And as for the revisiting of Azeroth, I don't think that would be too good for the mortal races, the titans had spent years perfecting azeroth, creating one perfect continent, a well of eternity in the middle and imprisoning the old gods. Now their perfect continent has blown up with their original well of eternity, the scourge seeks to end all life and demons are invading and the old gods are weakening their prisons, I think the Titans are going to try to restart the world once they arrive and destroy everything on it to do so. --Twilight Cultist JarHed 02:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Your Order vs Chaos statement made sense. However, what you're not adding in there is the Old Gods corupting important beings. Black Dragonflight, the emerald dream, causing so many to sacrifice themselves and so on. Some of the elemental lords weren't evil. I think the earth leutenant was peaceful. However, if they weren't so evil, then why are they doing this? They most likely have the power to leave somewhere else yet they just sat there. The beings on Azeroth pre titans shows that the old gods were in fact evil as they sought to rule over everything and stepped on anything that opposed them. Now, as for the Emerald Dream, I devised a theory. What if the one causing the nightmare wasn't chained up in that realm? It's corrupting it horribly. What im getting at there is that if the ED is azeroth without order, then an old god is corrupting a peaceful existance. HOWEVER, thats a theory but what we do know is their hands cause countless chaotic instances. Whatever they do, its ALWAYS to corrupt. Corruption =/= evil in this case? Not possible - Ibage

They were imprisoned by the Titans and the Old Gods are now are using any means necessary to escape, even if it means corrupting the Titans creations. And the emerald dream is the Titams blueprint the for the way the Titans wanted azeroth to be like, so you could say it is azeroth with a lot more order. Edit: You could also say the Titans corrupted Azeroth if you look at it the right way. --Twilight Cultist JarHed 15:46, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Then by your logic, I can start my own country and slaughter random people and it would be okay because it was my custom. If i were imprissoned, if i bribed someone to let me out, it's 100% okay. After all, it is my custom. It doesnt work like that. If it's true theyre looking to get to outland, and other parts of the universe (as hinted at by the Qiraj sentinel in Arc), how can that not be considered evil? They want power. In the wrong hands, power makes people corrupt. And what you're over looking, is the fact that blizzard has stated they're pure evil. It's like those people who are saying the naaru are evil now or are using draenei to get what they want. It doesn't make sense - Ibage

Then by your logic I can go build a space ship and invade alien worlds and slaughter its inhabitants because I don't like their form of government. And it never said anywhere that the old gods were actually randomly slaughtering people, and if you were unjustly imprisoned by an alien invader and had to bribe your way out of prison would you really care if it was technically illegal? And you also asked earlier why they didn't just go somewhere else, and now your saying that if they try to go somewhere else they're evil? And I don't really care if blizzard says they're evil, there is not any real evidence to show that they are anything but really pissed off gods who want their home back. --Twilight Cultist JarHed 21:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me myself get this straight for all of you... Old Gods summoning Sargeras, It took the entire Titan race to just IMPRISON them, I'm sure they can own Sargeras like a level 2 noob vs a 70 - Old Gods corrupting Nelthalion and the Emerald Dream, The Titan's made the Dragons as guardians of the world, the Old Gods are just undoing the Titans perspective of Order, they are killing their enemies - Now the Old Gods ruled Azeroth and the only thing that we know is from the "Winners" who could put whatever they want... Is there REALLY any proof that they are evil? Or have they been twisted to madness from nearly 10,000+++ Years of imprisonment, Azeroth is 10K years old but we dont know how long it even took to MAKE Azeroth after the Old Gods had been defeated... --Shiniki 07:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Well said. The only flaw in what you said is that Azeroth is quite a bit older than 10,000 years, unless you think the titans left around the time Illidan was imprisoned and completely ignore that trolls ruled the world for a few thousand years. --Twilight Cultist JarHed 20:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

You're looking too much into it. The fact is blizzard said they were evil. While I stand by everything I have said, blizz did state they were evil. So the original authors know whats going on as they make everything. Technicallity. - Ibage

That is the only flaw in my argument, but unfortunately it is there, but my main point is that the old gods haven't really been shown to do anything evil at all except what was necessary to destroy the creations of their enemies and to escape their imprisonment. Edit: And to regain what is theirs. --Twilight Cultist JarHed 23:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Weren't their elemental servants the only inhabitants before the titans came? Oh because I'm skimming I haven't seen this so sorry if it's up there. The titans gave the Naaru their powers to stop the Legion I think, so Jar, you could interpret that as either their redemption or for once they actually made a right choice even though they're crazy, overbearing, their version of order loving, zealotous, invaders.
Mr.X8TalkContribs 01:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Mr.X8TalkContribs 01:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing in the lore that I know of that suggests the titans created the Naaru. On the other hand a Titan created the burning legion for the purpose of destroying the current universe so that he could replace it with a new better more orderly one. This plan seems to me to be basically the same as the way most of the titans work but a bit more extreme. --Twilight Cultist JarHed 23:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Blizzard can always go back on their word, But why is the entire race of Azeroth subjected to this fact? We are just told "They are evil" so how come everyone knows when there is little proof to suggest that... --Shiniki 05:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not gonna bother to read everything you guys have written, but this is what I know. There is absolutely no question about the Old Gods being evil. They are evil. It doesn't matter that they were the government, that they ruled the planet. They loved violence, pain, suffering, chaos, death, and wanted only power, which they had in abundance. They ruled over the bloodiest, most terrible empire known. The elementals served them with complete loyalty. The titans came along, imprisoned the Old Gods, shucked out the elementals, and made the well of eternity, the mountains, valleys, the supercontinent Azeroth, and all that good stuff. They gave order to Azeroth. They gave order, to that which was chaos. Chaos generated by the Old Gods. If anyone is capable of stating any possible way of someone who delights in and spreads chaos not being evil, then post it. And I will argue with you. The Old Gods are evil. That evil. --Mesethusela (talk) 02:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www.wowwiki.com/Alignment#Chaotic_Good Chaotic does not automatically assume evil. It implies anarchy, lawlessness (or rule by the strongest ones such as The Old Gods) and a degree of amorality or morality based on your own views rather than conforming to the morality of the "society". Now, they were preobably not the most pleasant beings to live under and there are several instances where their worshippers (for the least) were known to sacrifice people for the Old Gods (I think it is mentioned in a BFD quest). That being said calling them evil because they are chaotic is not an argument and neither is justifiyng their imprisonment because they were doing things that the Titans saw as evil since there were no laws laid out that said what the Old Gods could or could not do. In that way I would be inclined to say that the Titans did not act much different than, say, missionaries during the conquest of Americas. They could not accept what they found and went on to push their own morality to a group that did not want to accept them. Truth be told I sometimes get more suspicious at the worshippers of Naaru (though Naaru so far struck me as not as bad as their worshippers) such as Rilak and Kirrik than the worshippers of the Old Gods simply because I get a feeling that if it was the real world I could be among the people they proclaim evil and call out rewards to bring my head to them :P At any rate, I don't think we can really apply "rights" to a situation where there were no laws laid out. It was simply two groups that could not understand and (at the case of Titans) tolerate the other side. --Neakal (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that any beings as intelligent and intellectual as the titans or old gods would be able to understand each other very well. It is not like with the Elemental Lords, where their primal nature as the embodiments of their elements, which incurs natural chaos which is necessary to the ongoing process of nature, causes them to naturally slip into that state of chaos when no order is enforced. Anyway, chaos is not the argument. They allowed, and almost certainly caused suffering of their underlings, as it was said in the WotA trilogy. They ruled over a bloody empire the likes of which not even the burning legion could imagine, or something like that. Anyway, someone's own viewpoint doesn't matter in morality. If, from my view, I think that hitting someone is nice and acceptable thing to do in everyday life, does that mean it really is? No. Perspective does not change the true nature of things. But with laws or without them, evil is evil, and purposely causing pain without care, or needlessly consuming others(sentient/humanoid-like creatures) for selfish benefit falls under that category. --Mesethusela (talk) 03:43, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me if I just leapt into a conversation that was already officially ended by an admin, but I saw no message saying that the arguement was over, so I just felt like adding in my two cents.

I think what we can all agree on is that while the concept of Old Gods being good or evil is still somewhat sketchy at best, the Titans don't exactly seem the most...good-hearted. The Titans did indeed take over a world that was not their own (though from what I can tell, the Old Gods still weren't the nicest rulers), and they don't seem to care much about life that is not particularly evil (that is, if the encounter with Algalon the Observer is anything to go by). If things are in chaos, then they seem to immediately jump to the conclusion that they need to "re-originate" the planet (as in, make it go boom and then re-create it). They also seem to think that perfection is the key to everything, and if something isn't perfect then it isn't good (once again, according to the Algalon encounter).

So, while the morality and alignment of Old Gods is still questionable, I think we can establish the fact that Titans aren't the best either. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 20:09, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree Toran's point about either side being dubious although the Old Gods were obviously less-nice about things. But as he pointed out with Algaon, Titans don't seem the nicest ones either. As for what Mesethusela said, the comment in the WotA trilogy mentioned that the Legion would be hard pressed to stop the Old Gods, should they be released. I don't remember any reference to the bloodiness of their empire (although I would not be surprised if I remember wrong. It has been a while since I read them). On another note, ones viewpoint means everything to morality. Morals and values are not set in stone. They fluctuate by the conditions, histories, traditions of the people who have them and the nature of the society involved. Things common practice in ancient days (arena games etc...) are unacceptable today. Likewise, take the example of eating dogs in the Far East. They don't do it because it is an evil practice and they like committing evil. They just don't see dogs the same way we do. Likewise, if the Old Gods, for whatever reason, have a preferrence for overall chaos/destruction, it is not because it is "wrong" from their view. Maybe it is because they embody certain aspects (like Yogg-Saron embodying Death). Maybe it is something else. But whatever it is, to them, it is the right thing. They are gods and they are very alien beings in terms of existence and mindset (remember they are inspired by Lovecraft). At best, they don't care. At worst, the current state of Azeroth represents everything wrong in their view. But in the end, there is no inherent right or wrong. Like I said, it is the clash of the view of "right" of the Old Gods and the view of "right" of the Titans. Just one last question for you: Predators cause willful killing and suffering as they kill their prey because that is how they do it and that is how they survive. Would you call them evil? --Neakal (talk) 02:56, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Harbringer Skyriss in Arcatraz tells us that the Qiraji exists in space. This together with the fact that Arrakoa tries to summon an old god in outland wich is another planet far away from azeroth made me come upp with the theory that Old Gods are from space. This would go well with their inspiration, the Great Old Ones, from H.P. Lovecrafts stories.

If the Old Gods came to azeroth in meteorites that may explain Un'goro crater and why the titans were so intrested in it.

I think Old Gods are the opposite of Titans, spreading chaos instead of order and may exist on other worlds in the universe making them a force maybe even stronger than the legion. --Treetar (talk) 20:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

(Please bear with me; I have a LOT to say.)
I believe the Old Gods were actually a society of the malevolent deities who came into being during Azeroth's very-early history as manifestations of primal furry (for clarification, I believe that true deities in Warcraft such as Elune, the Old Gods, and the Loa are manifested by the will of those who worship them when they first began worshiping them). I see them having a hierarchal caste system. The castes, from most to least significant, are as follows: Old Gods, Lesser Old Gods, Elemental Lieutenants, Old God Spawn, Elementals, Servants. Old Gods splits into two sub-castes: The Five and the Firstborne. The Five are the first and foremost in origin and power and act kind-of as the Old Gods' Aspects (it’s been speculated that C’thun is/was one of the Five); the Firstborne are the direct children of the Five, with slightly lesser scopes of power (I think Yogg-Saron is among the most powerful of this sub-caste, if not the most powerful). Lesser Old Gods are the offspring of Firstborne and/or other Lesser Old Gods who are more than a notch under the Firstborne in power (Hakkar would fit into this caste). Elemental Lieutenants of course includes the four Elemental Lords as well as their offspring and subordinates. Old God Spawn are creatures spawned from the essence of any Old God (the Forgotten Ones would fit into this caste). Their powers are only a fraction of those of their hosts but can rival those of a demigod like Cenarius. The last two castes are givens; I just thought that Elementals would be higher in status than mortal Servants.--ToaCodyNuva (talk) 00:29, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Yogg-Saron is one of the Five for the following reason: one was killed by the Titans, three were imprisoned as stated in the War of the Ancients Trilogy, and C'thun is widely considered to be the fifth.--ToaCodyNuva (talk) 21:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Yogg-Saron is most likely one of "The Three" imprisonned by the Titans with one other maybye in Uldum and the other under Tirisfal.

Yogg-Saron has to be one of the Three, he claims credit for the Demon Soul incident as part of the raid encounter.--Ragestorm(talk · contr) 03:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

To point out a detail Rage, Yogg-Saron references the completion of the Demon Soul. He also refers to the Lich King and the Siege of Stormwind, and I doubt he is resposible for either. Now, can we get back to my theory?--ToaCodyNuva (talk) 03:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Uhh, I'm pretty sure we were discussing your theory, we were disagreeing with the part of your theory where Yogg-Saron isn't one of the Five, which quite frankly, makes little sense. What part of your theory did you think we were going to discuss? --Ragestorm(talk · contr) 04:20, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I meant could we get back to my theory as a whole. But point taken.--ToaCodyNuva (talk) 13:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Your theory could be good, but Yogg-Saron is not in your "Lesser Old God" Category, as stated on the official website : "Beneath ancient Ulduar, the Old God of death lies, whispering..." and Rhonin to add "the Old God is laughing at us"

Uhh, A'Noob, what are you trying to say???--ToaCodyNuva (talk) 06:08, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

He's trying to explain that Yogg-Saron is one of the five, as Blizzard materials and in-universe characters are clearly referring to him as such.--Ragestorm(talk · contr) 13:28, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Ohhh!! Well, in all fairness, the references for Yogg-Saron simply state that he is an Old God. And when you think about it, my theory postulates that there are/were multiple Old Gods other than the Five. Also, I didn't put him in the Lesser Old God caste, I put him at the top of the Firstborne sub-caste which is right beneath the Five.--ToaCodyNuva (talk) 05:36, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that you're starting with a theory that has absolutely no basis in lore, namely that there are Old Gods on Azeroth beyond the five. It'd be like me coming up with a theory that Arthas has a son and then postulating from there. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 06:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

What specifically? Your hierarchy ideas are right, but you've no evidence for all this firstborne/lesser old god stuff.--Ragestorm(talk · contr) 13:43, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

It's just an idea, and I came up with the caste names just for effect.--ToaCodyNuva (talk) 02:40, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, what evidence for castes do you have, besides the highly questionable status of Hakkar? (I'm just questioning the upper part, the lower part about the elementals and such looks fine to me)--Ragestorm(talk · contr) 13:49, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

The upper part takes into account the possibility that there are/were multiple Old Gods, all descendants of the Five (I derived Firstborne from Highborne because it sounds cool). Also, I'd like to hear any [relevent] personal theories or adjustments to mine that your may have.--ToaCodyNuva (talk) 06:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I know this is YOUR theory, but we can't confirm anything, since there is no source about this. Even if those descendants exists, they are not called Old Gods, Old Gods is the class of the higher rank of these creatures, there is only citation about seven of them, "The Three" (which, almost sure, Yoggy is one of them), the Master's Glaive, C'Thun (who was believed dead), and maybe 2 more (if you don't count C'thun and the glaive as imprisioneds). I'm almost sure Blizzard will retcon this in the future. Pudim17 (talk - contr) 11:48, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

To clarify Pudim17, I put the descendants into the Lesser Old God caste for that very reason. Also, Yogg-Saron can't be one of the Three because the Titans imprisoned them within the earth together and he is/was the sole inmate of Ulduar.--ToaCodyNuva (talk) 23:05, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but can you give me the source that says that they were imprisioned together, unless then I don't think your theroy will work. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 23:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

They are imprisoned in separate places, no source says they are all bound in a same place.

Most likely Ulduar, Western Tirisfal Glades and Maelstrom.

And Yogg-Saron is imprisoned, leading to think that he is one of The Three.

In one of the articles concerning the Old Gods it was said that they originated from the endless void. However during one of the cut scenes in ashenvale forest during the orc missions (number 5 if i'm correct) of when mannoroth persuaded the orcs back to serve the legion he mentions the endless void. Could it be possible that the old gods are a specific race of very powerful demons that aren't being controlled by Sargeras?