The build has an incredible amount of card draw, allowing it to play a far lower land count then average without worrying about mana screw, any hand with at least 2 mana sources pretty much garentees your mana, even with only 19 lands. The power of the build is incontestable, its incredibly fast, and generates a level of card advantage thats on a completely different level compared to any other current T2 deck...

Latest version trades high level card draw, for a faster threat base including the Kavu suit, and abit more beef in Chameleon colossus. A result of the meta turning towards fast weenie, and Tribal agro decks rather then more control oriented builds. Scarscale is replaced with Ponder, as ponder proves itself to be simply superior.

At first glance, I don't really like it. Even with your draw/search, 19 lands just isn't enough. You have very little board control, and since you probably ned to spend your early turns searching/cantripping, aggro will get an unstoppable swarm on the field. 2 Firespout isn't enough to defend against that. Also, the only win-con I'm seeing here is 2 Aeon Chronicler and 2 Warhammer, which also just isn't enough. Aggro (a good portion of the meta right now) just flattens you before you get set up, and there is really nothing to defend against burn.

However, the concept is ok. I would drop a couple cantrips for more land and maybe some removal, and Fathom Seer seems extremely suspect to me (especially with around 20 land), but as long as you get more board control this should do fine.

Also, please don't call this the "strongest" deck. It isn't funny anymore. The only logical conclusion I can draw is that you really, really want a flame war, so do us all a favor and please just acknowledge that this isn't the "strongest". Thank you.

PLay with the build, if anything I am thinking the land count may be too high.... the amount of card you draw leaves agro stalling out with you killing off their team and still having a 7 cards or more hand. Your entire deck is full of creatures, so stalling out creature based agro is extremely easy to do.

4 Manamorphose--decks that don't start with this as a 4 of now should be suspect if they claim to be competitive.

I lol'd.

Yeah, this deck is bad. Using the word "Strong" to describe this deck is laughable. You play 19 lands and 5-drops. Primal Command doesn't even do anything in this deck. Half your cards are terrible and the other half have no synergy whatsoever. You use all this acceleration and card drawing to do... nothing.

57023148 wrote:

People really think WotC is reprinting Lightning Bolt? Really? Are people that gullible?

PLay with the build, if anything I am thinking the land count may be too high.... the amount of card you draw leaves agro stalling out with you killing off their team and still having a 7 cards or more hand. Your entire deck is full of creatures, so stalling out creature based agro is extremely easy to do.

What exactly are you playing against? And where?

This is similar the Threshold build*, except without any of the good threshold drawers, and any of the good Threshold creatures**.

Weak decks don't go 8-0 in a competitive environment as this one did just friday night...

19 lands in a deck with 5 drops IS odd, the card draw makes it work out remarkably well though, despite its low land count the build rarely misses a mana drop, making the deck extremely powerful due to its abaility to contain more active spells then most other builds. The fact that the deck is effectively only 56 cards goes even further towards increasing its reliability.

Primal Command is overwhelmingly powerful, especially when it hits as early as turn 3, as it often does in this build.

Greg--Make no mistake the critters in this build are far stronger then the ones in yer link.

2:25 PM sneakattackkid: my basics are worth more...
5:21 PM Nighthavk_: I was splitting more 8-4s than a hooker splits her legs.
11:42 PM Nighthavk_: because honestly, your opponent may be caw, but he'll probably be a drooling idiot who just found out porn exists.

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PLay with the build, if anything I am thinking the land count may be too high.... the amount of card you draw leaves agro stalling out with you killing off their team and still having a 7 cards or more hand. Your entire deck is full of creatures, so stalling out creature based agro is extremely easy to do.

Of the creatures in the deck, 7 of them have 0 power (3x Wall of Roots, 4x Birds), and none of them except Chronicler and Dusk Urchins have a power greater than 2. Even Chronicler and Urchins are conditional as to how high their power gets. 2-of Loxodon Warhammer isn't enough to justify running a bunch of low-power creatures.

Also, how in the hell do you expect to draw 5 off of a Dusk Urchins? You'll draw 3 if you're lucky.

One last thing... why are you running Murmuring Bosk? Nothing in the deck costs white, and you aren't running any Treefolk (well, except Nameless Inversion) to make it come into play untapped. Gilt-Leaf Palace seems strictly better here, since it won't take life to tap for black, and you do run a few elves (Yavimaya Dryad, Nameless Inversion).

Everyone should chill out a little bit... Calling the deck the strongest so adamantly just challenges everyone to try it out. It's really not that big of a deal.

I didn't believe that 19 lands would work out at first, either, but after some good testing earlier, it really is the right amount, and I'd seriously consider upping the land count to 20, but definitely not more. After tweaking the build subtly, I really wouldn't want to see more than 2 lands in an average opening hand with the amount of early accel and card draw this deck runs on.

And I too regularly played the 5 drops on turn three, no problem. It seems counter-intuitive, but the deck can comfortably violate a lot of the deckbuilding norms of Standard play due to the nature of the deck.

I can't be sure that the deck is the strongest in Standard, but the testing I've done shows promise that it can be strongly competitive. It definitely has it's vulnerabilities, such as a low threat density, and the possibility of being overrun, but it does at least have some answers to these things that lead to good games. The walls really help with early aggro, too, my build added another just for that, and the consistency of the mana that they bring together allow you to comfortably throw the walls away with scarscales for more cards right before they give that last chump block.

I'd definitely advocate testing before talking. No one can just sit high-and-mighty saying that it's not a good deck, basing your opinion on typical deck theory. That leads to close-minded deckbuilding which can only hurt and can't help.

And I don't know how many people actually need to hear this, but I've heard a lot of people talking about "breaking" Dusk Urchin... It doesn't work in the way that I've heard people trying to accomplish this. You can't add more -1/-1 counters to him than his P/T can handle, unless you do multiple -1/-1 counters in one effect. If you attack, which put the trigger on the stack, and in response play Scarscale Ritual, for this example, Scarscale triggers, he gets a -1/-1 counter and is put into the grave as a state-based effect before anything else can be done and before any additional counters can be acquired. This is because state-based effects (like having 0 toughness) are checked whenever any player receives priority, which must occur before the trigger in this example (or others) can resolve.

*PHEW!* sorry about that last paragraph... just had to do it... this has been bothering me because I've heard it being discussed so much lately.

I didn't believe that 19 lands would work out at first, either, but after some good testing earlier, it really is the right amount, and I'd seriously consider upping the land count to 20, but definitely not more. After tweaking the build subtly, I really wouldn't want to see more than 2 lands in an average opening hand with the amount of early accel and card draw this deck runs on.

And I too regularly played the 5 drops on turn three, no problem. It seems counter-intuitive, but the deck can comfortably violate a lot of the deckbuilding norms of Standard play due to the nature of the deck.

Repeated Solitaire Testing* that I have done actually does prove this to be true. While this deck is far from optimal, it definitely isn't Killer Bees > Tarmogoyf brand crap. While not Standard's Strongest yet, it could challenge a few decks.

*Testing in which you run the deck against nothing, just taking turn after turn with no disruption or anything from an opponent. Good to test for mana problems etc.

Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.

The main problem I can see the deck running into is an Extirpate or now maybe even Runed Halo on the main threats, or early counters screwing your early game tempo. There seem to be too few threats to handle the combination of the standard removal that every deck has and a well-timed counterspell or the previously mentioned Extirpate.

I am really curious to see whether or not it can recover from its weaknesses being exploited, and I really want to find slots for a few other good threats that fit this strange build.

Also, just to throw it out there, a desperate Loxy on Birds is always fun. :D

And I don't know how many people actually need to hear this, but I've heard a lot of people talking about "breaking" Dusk Urchin... It doesn't work in the way that I've heard people trying to accomplish this. You can't add more -1/-1 counters to him than his P/T can handle, unless you do multiple -1/-1 counters in one effect. If you attack, which put the trigger on the stack, and in response play Scarscale Ritual, for this example, Scarscale triggers, he gets a -1/-1 counter and is put into the grave as a state-based effect before anything else can be done and before any additional counters can be acquired. This is because state-based effects (like having 0 toughness) are checked whenever any player receives priority, which must occur before the trigger in this example (or others) can resolve..

In any case, Scarscale Ritual is a sorcery, so that trick wouldn't work anyway.

Well 2 counters on the Urchin plus a scarscale = drawing 5 cards... 3 from urchin 2 from Scarscale... which was of course my meaning. I almost wanted to play incremental blight and be "Crazy", but that seemed silly.

Deathcow--The Murmurring Bosks are in the build because they count as forests....AKA you can fetch them straight into play with Yavimaya Dryad.

The threat count for the deck is fine, even the small guys swing, and with the number of cards you end up drawing, you'll have a steady flow of critters. a 2 power guy alone may be a slow clock, but 3 of em works just fine. Shapeshifters are also IMMENSELY powerful, they eliminate your opponents ability to ever have anything thats bigger then what you have.

Caldera--The FNM was 8 roundsu 5 swiss 3 top 8, the deck went 8-0 IN ROUNDS.

Jedcaj--Our FNM is HIGHLY competitive, I don't think theres a single person there with a constructed rating under 1850. Primary decks are Faeries, various G/B agro, and Doran variants, Merfolk, Elves, ect... basically what you would expect from the highest level tournies. With 100+ pack prizes people tend to get abit cutthroat. The land problem is not a problem, as many others have already attested to.

Extirpate, and Runed halo do little to nothing, removing one threat leaves me with plenty more, and Halo is a prime Command target if it ever actually does something.

*smacks forehead* Yeah, that is a really bad example, but fill it in with any other add -1/-1 counter effects.

Also, how in the hell do you expect to draw 5 off of a Dusk Urchins? You'll draw 3 if you're lucky.

I think this is a reference to a swing for 3, then a swing for 2, bringing it down to a 2/1, then hitting it with a Scarscale Ritual for the kill instead of swinging it to death. 3 counters for 3 cards, plus the two from Scarscale Ritual.

I would expect a Dusk Urchins to die before that, though. I think he will have a target on his head as your biggest threat whenever you play him, and I would expect an opponent to attempt to deny you of the cards he can give. I guess I'll just have to see him hit play a few times first :-\

EDIT: Posted at the same time as above, sorry for the double answer >_<

And, to the post above, do you give the basic forest to your opponent often for forestwalk if they aren't playing forests? If so, does it help more than hurt, or is removal just too quick? Seems like it would almost be a good idea since you draw into your other forestwalkers so quickly and the damage would seriously add up with no way of blocking it.

Ok, after playing with the deck, I revise my previous statement slightly. 19 land is actually enough for the deck, and there are more threats than it looks like there are. However, I've found that it's tough to pull off Fathom Seer's morph conistently, what with there only being 8 Islands in the deck. Aggro swarms are still a problem, as well. I really would consider going up to 4 Firespout.

Ok, after playing with the deck, I revise my previous statement slightly. 19 land is actually enough for the deck, and there are more threats than it looks like there are. However, I've found that it's tough to pull off Fathom Seer's morph conistently, what with there only being 8 Islands in the deck. Aggro swarms are still a problem, as well. I really would consider going up to 4 Firespout.

Seers are usually morphed down when you either have the islands available early, or else when you are a little later in the game, like around turn 5 or so when your chances of getting the second island are much higher, other then those two situations you will just play it face up as an efficient blocker that combos with Shifter, and is an excellent target for throwing scarscale counters on.

And yes the Seer can pump up chroniclers +4+4 not just +2+2... with the shifters also available it is not rare to be swinging with multiple 12+ power chroniclers...

Fed--Streetwraith is just nowhere near as good as manamorphose is, paying a cost VS having a benefit is a pretty big difference.

Also, you should stop doing this "Standards Strongest 2" title, and also claiming average cards as a metabreaker. You may think so, but shouldn't you by now have learnt that such statements will only bring the thread more harm than good? No lessons learnt from your previous thread? I'm expecting a response to this thread similar to MMPS thread.

At least MMPS excited me enough to get me to test the deck out. This deck does not excite me at all. Manamorphose and 19 lands really killed the interest.

Also fyi, how do you fare against faeries, mana ramp, and the soon-to-be-played land-destruction decks?

The only recommendation I can give is more islands, and maybe -gainland +hybrid land.

I agree with Islands...The only recommendation I can give is more islands...

Urge to quote...rising.

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I can imagine piloting this deck at an FNM or something, sitting down across from some scrub, internally fist-pumping my first round bye, and then wanting to slit my wrists at how cold I am to turn 1 shock.

It gives you a repeatable element of creature control and has massive WoR synergy.

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Tekanan--This build is like MMPS on steroids, it is faster, more consistant, and outright evil. In fact I would say its pretty similar to affinity.... when affinity had skullclamp..... At least in the way the deck plays. The amount of cheap fast card drawing really warps what the deck is capable of, the 19 lands feels more like playing 24, the 6 removal spells feels more like 9 ect.

The deck doesn't look like it should work with 19 lands, but it does, as many others here have already attested, it just draws so much that your mana is ALWAYS stable, even under heavy disruption.

Also I'm not sure what card you are saying that I am claiming to be a Meta Breaker? Manamorphose? It doesn't "break" anything, but that doesn't mean that EVERY competitive deck in EVERY format shouldn't be playing 4. Manamorphose makes decks into 56 cards instead of 60 AND helps your mana out to boot. Its a silly card that should have never had been printed, but it was and in two months will be the most played card in competitive magic history. It doesn't "break" anything at all, but you would be silly to play a 60 card deck when everyone else is playing a 56 card build with better mana then yours.

Faeries is a straight up joke against this build, as is ManaRamp, the power level of the build with shadowmoor simply outclasses both decktypes, land destruction is a similarly useless strategy against the build, with all the draw, and accelerators the build is virtually busrting with mana, even with only 19 actual lands... what exactly is LD going to do when you are averaging 5 mana sources before they have a chance to destroy one?

You may also notice the builds Mana denial board strategy, Consign to dream...CAN HIT LANDS.... its absolutely bonkers level ridiculous...on the play after board, you can almost garentee locking your opponent on 1 land up till almost turn 5...

while the original MMPS looked more consistent due to the larger number of mana sources, I assure you that this build is FAR more so, while also being enormously powerful.... Its a deck that pretty much never runs out of steam, even in the extreme late game.

Tekanan--This build is like MMPS on steroids, it is faster, more consistant, and outright evil. In fact I would say its pretty similar to affinity.... when affinity had skullclamp..... At least in the way the deck plays. The amount of cheap fast card drawing really warps what the deck is capable of, the 19 lands feels more like playing 24, the 6 removal spells feels more like 9 ect.

The deck doesn't look like it should work with 19 lands, but it does, as many others here have already attested, it just draws so much that your mana is ALWAYS stable, even under heavy disruption.

Also I'm not sure what card you are saying that I am claiming to be a Meta Breaker? Manamorphose? It doesn't "break" anything, but that doesn't mean that EVERY competitive deck in EVERY format shouldn't be playing 4. Manamorphose makes decks into 56 cards instead of 60 AND helps your mana out to boot. Its a silly card that should have never had been printed, but it was and in two months will be the most played card in competitive magic history. It doesn't "break" anything at all, but you would be silly to play a 60 card deck when everyone else is playing a 56 card build with better mana then yours.

Faeries is a straight up joke against this build, as is ManaRamp, the power level of the build with shadowmoor simply outclasses both decktypes, land destruction is a similarly useless strategy against the build, with all the draw, and accelerators the build is virtually busrting with mana, even with only 19 actual lands... what exactly is LD going to do when you are averaging 5 mana sources before they have a chance to destroy one?

You may also notice the builds Mana denial board strategy, Consign to dream...CAN HIT LANDS.... its absolutely bonkers level ridiculous...on the play after board, you can almost garentee locking your opponent on 1 land up till almost turn 5...

while the original MMPS looked more consistent due to the larger number of mana sources, I assure you that this build is FAR more so, while also being enormously powerful.... Its a deck that pretty much never runs out of steam, even in the extreme late game.

I can vouch for this deck. Roy top 4's almost every Friday with that deck(top 8'd and they all split last Friday) and that deck is simple INSANE. he always has mana, draw spells and creatures that draw and big BIG finishers as well. If he gets turn 1 birds, turn 2 driad or wall of roots and you missed a land drop, you'd better believe that one of your lands is gonna get primal commanded to the top of your deck. Or if he gets into the late game and you have wrathed or killed all of his threats he can just shuffle his deck into his library and start all over.

I understand Xerox theory and this list does employ it to a large degree.

A few questions (Keep in mind, I'm not going to hate on this thread and will test this deck.)

#1 Your original list has 61 cards. Is that accurate?

#2 Why no singleton Brine? It seems to offer a lot in a very compressed slot. I don't see why, for one second, you wouldn't run this. It may just be worse, but it can just win.

#3 Leech Bonder. This is janky. It allows you to have recurring removal in a single slot though while hosing a lot of the format.

#4 Why the 3 Wall/ 4 Dryad split? I'd go in the reverse function. Roots seems like it makes this deck insane (It makes 2 mana[One on your turn, one on theirs for Vesuvan and such], provides the second turn acceleration, and gives you that crucial tiny amount of time to go broken out while making Ritual that much better) I see Dryad and I like it as an evasive beater/Accelerant but Wall helps your Draw engine go busted, helps Shapeshifter, provides an earlier accelerant (you only have that T1 Birds. Manamorphose doesn't start digging until the second turn. Ensured acceleration would be nice)

#5 I get the Bosk. You just don't seem to be able to employ it. Yes, some number of Bosks need to be here for Dryad. I don't feel that number is four. I think 2-2 with Wastes split would be more potent. I just don't like the prospect of more than a fifth of your lands CitPT. You have broken things to do and should not be slowed down. Again, some number is correct. Four can't be though.

I like the SB Plan. Especially because Consign is such bustedness. Have you considered Vision? I like playing it in anything featuring a bit of Blue.

Please get back to me. Thanks man.

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Islands--Leechbonder is decently solid actually...the fact that you have to attack into things to use it though cold prove detrimental... if it was a tap ability rather then an untap ability it would be great....although, it would be kinda funny if I ever decided to play Utopia Vow for some reason :p

61 is correct as far as the original list goes... its still in testing though to see if dropping the numbers on anything else to go to 60 is worth it.

Brine Elemental is absolutely crap, complete trash, theres not a single slot in this build that isn't better then briny is. He is too slow, too weak, and his ability is simply not needed. The best term for him would be "awkward" he just NEVER does what you would want him to do.

The split between wall and dryad has to due with threat ratios, and wrath effect survivability to the mana base. Basically they both effectively do similar things, but the dryad swings, is far more resistant to board sweepers trying to damage your mana base, and helps to thin out your library further. I have not completely eliminated the idea of playing 4 walls AND 4 Dryads, but dryad has been thoroughly proven to be correct as a 4 of, while wall hasn't quite done so. Wall is better on turn 2 no doubt about that, but at almost all other times Dryad tends to be superior, mainly due to its threat status, ability to provide mana even if killed, mana fixing, and deck thinning capability.

Bosk simply put is NUTS with dryad. The coming into play tapped drawback is virtually nonexistant due to most of them being played from your deck anyway. Your other accelerants, and the presence of the changling spell means the Cipt almost never effects what you are doing. Llawanor wastes inability to be grabbed by dryad, combined with the fact that they always damage you even when using them for green definitely put them a step behind bosk. The deck REALLY wants at least 5 forests to fetching with dryad, remember that you will often be copying dryads with shapeshifter for a further mana boost when no better targets are on the board.

Concerning Vision, you don't really need any more card draw, especially heavily limited card draw such as visions... why draw 3 cards 4 turns from now, when you can draw 2 this turn?

Yeah, I kinda felt the same way. It swings in though and requires a 3/3 to kill it. With your accel and protection, it should be up in time to wreck havoc. It plays with your mana denial by offing accelerants and it seems possibly good with Shapeshifter (As if he wasn't good enough).

Check my last post, bro. I'm curious and interested in this.

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This looks like a decent modern interpretation of Xerox theory. I'm not sure on some of the choices, (I hate Dusk Urchins, I think it's highly overrated), but the rest seems okay. I'm not sure on the win choice either.

I agree on the Urchins assessment but I think that if it is viable in any MD, it is here.

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Islands--see edit... Don't have anything against Leechbonder, he just seems abit vulnerable with the whole hanging his ass out in the wind thing...definitely not bad though, and may be nuts in the right meta. an effective 1/1 for 3 seems a little on the easy side to pick off though.

As far as Urchins go, they are well, completely crazy. AT WORST, they eat a removal spell for a 3cc guy, on average its 3 mana to kill a critter and draw anywhere between one, and 4 cards depending if you had a scarscale. At best its BOTH halves of browbeat for the same price, or even better yet with a scarscale ritual. If they don't kill it off on the fist attack the CA is often just crazy...