Hmmm... it's been 10 days since the post, wonder if this still applies. I'm a decent Java developer (been dealing with it for at least 4, 5 yrs) with some cooperate working experience. But right now I'm pursuing a graduate degree in Boston area here and thus a bit tied up. I wonder if it's possible to keep contact with your company and see what options are out there when I get my master degree first. Since I really like Java as a programming tool and really want to do game programming, but so far looks like all the good, full-scale Java gaming companies are located in UK (sad, and unreasonable, considering US is the motherland of Java language). I play that popular java MMORPG Runescape regularly as a member, and do like the idea of Java games, especially MMORPGs very much. Maybe UK shall be place for me?...

Well, I'd really like to contribute a bit to your company if I'm allowed to. I draw a bit besides programming, mostly good with figure design (anime style). With Internet today long-distance team work is possible, isn't it?

Here's another coder with an artist problem...maybe we could collaborate to solve our problem? I wonder, if there could be a website, where artists and coders come together? Something like asynchrony.com? Some people might post game concepts to attract coders and artists and registered members would apply for a position in the development team by posting pieces of their work on the site?

How long does it take to become a good coder? If we are talking about a bit of experience in actual software engineering, so you can design an app properly, I'd say a couple of years. Don't you think it makes sense to leave the coding part to someone, who already has the experience? And then it's also the sheer amount of work. You need quite a few graphics and also a couple of 1000 LOCs to write a good game. If most graphical artists could learn the coding part so easily, we would have quite a few one-man game design companies around. Where are the great games from them? I looked around for great games and took a look at the teams behind them. It's more like 10-15 people if you look at the major companies in the market.I've another guy with exactly the same problem here, so there must be a way to find a solution for this problem.BTW: did you hear about this Vodafone game challenge? I'm thinking about joining it and it would be great to get some folks together to form a nice team. I've already started brainstorming for game ideas, but my best idea so far would be a Black Adder like game. But I guess with so much black humour it's hard to make it in the finals...must think again...

Creating a great game isn't about graphics or coding. Its about game design. Also, don't assume that artists want to be game designers just like programmers don't always want to be game designers. Look at all the programmers around the world and I would guess that less than 1% are game developers.

Sure, it does take a long time to become good at any discipline, but my point was that you can in fact go to the store, by a book and learn how to program in 21 days (joke intended). You won't be making the next Quake anytime soon. But you will be able to get started very quickly and make a game. Will that game be amazing though... I doubt it because the game design will still be missing. After a few years, if you stick with it, your programming skills will in fact get better with the more you read and the more you code. The sky is the limit on what you can read about and then code. To truely understand the essence of computer science you can go to college and take computer science as a major and you will learn the field soup to nuts (much as an artist would do for his field). If not school then you can find out almost as much on the web. You can even take game programmer courses on the web. (www.gameinstitute.com). Ok, so the point is, you can get started VERY quickly and learn enough to make a game and over time learn as much as you want and or need.

You cannot however go get a book that tells you how to create amazing graphics. You can get books that tell you how to use the tools, but the creativity requires skills that are unique to truley talented artists. Usually, those artists are not that common and when they are, they are paid well for those services so its tough to get them to want to do games for royalties when the game ships. If you are looking for a 3D artist then you need all the above plus 3D modeling skills again for free initially. That is a tall order to ask of someone... Check out http://pixelation.swoo.net/ and you will find probably the biggest collection of artists on the web... I dare you to ask one of them to help you do art for your game. They are simply not interested. Even the ones that DO want to make games have their own ideas many of which are pretty darned good. They are a bit elitist, but I can understand why to some extent.

If you have natural talent as an artist you can learn to program if you really want to (generally speaking). If you have natural talent as a programmer, it is probably fair to say that you won't ever be an amazing artist unless you also have some natural art talent.

Finally, there ARE 1000's of amazing games out there from the studios. These games have teams the size you mentioned. However, those folks are paid wages/salaries for those efforts and that is where many of those game focused artists are (contray to popular belief, artists don't like to starve). Also, there are plenty of programmers out there who would love to work for a game company but don't want to be treated like a slave (in many cases) or simply don't want to make the crappy salaries that game coders make.

That leaves us with indie games and game companies... Why aren't there more indie games? Well, for all the reasons you know about... Its is easy to get started as a programmer, hard to find an artist and almost impossible to finish a game when its all for fun and your not getting paid.

I hope this answers some of your questions... Don't get frustrated though. If you really want to make a game, make one. There are plenty of people on the net who are just like you and WILL help you. The trick is to JUST DO IT as Nike tells us. Once you have something started others will help out more than you can imagine.

I hope this answers some of your questions... Don't get frustrated though. If you really want to make a game, make one. There are plenty of people on the net who are just like you and WILL help you. The trick is to JUST DO IT as Nike tells us. Once you have something started others will help out more than you can imagine.

I think you have a point with the book and learning stuff. But I don't think you are right about the 'just do it' stuff. Look, I think I have a great idea and about 300kb sources here. I've looked around for graphical artists, but no luck so far. I guess the problem is simply, that there's point where coders and artist could meet.One alternative are games, where you (more or less) need no graphics. One reason for my constributions to java-chess.de

I like that (Programming Artists)...I still wish I knew an Artist Artist though. If I did I would have a game finished ;-)

I know a couple of 'Artist Artist's' and have just interrupted the collaboration with one of them after 5 weeks of frustration. It's one thing to paint lots of nice graphics (that you can never use for the game) and it's another thing to create good game graphics.. The problem is the understanding of how a game actually works (what sprites are required etc). So I'm only interested in a collaboration with a graphical designer, who knows how games actually work, since I'm too old to ruin my nerves...

Creating a great game isn't about graphics or coding. Its about game design. Also, don't assume that artists want to be game designers just like programmers don't always want to be game designers. Look at all the programmers around the world and I would guess that less than 1% are game developers.

Good point, but...

Quote

my point was that you can in fact go to the store, by a book and learn how to program in 21 days (joke intended). ...You cannot however go get a book that tells you how to create amazing graphics. You can get books that tell you how to use the tools, but the creativity requires skills that are unique to truley talented artists.

Crap. There is no effective difference in the way you are claiming. I speak as someone who tossed a coin to decide whether to read fine-art or computer-science, and has taught other people to do both; I can vouch that it takes approximately equal effort to become a good programmer as it does to become a good artist. Almost (vast majority of people) anyone can produce good (or even very good) art - it's mostly a question of how much practice you get, and how well you are trained. Similarly, almost anyone can produce good programs, if they work hard enough.

But just as there are some aspects of art-creation that require some innate talent (although don't forget pure luck ), I've seen many programs that perhaps 90% of programmers would never be able to write themselves. Usually because it requires a much wider understanding of the problem being faced than most people are able to hold in their heads at once - or else a really deep understanding of certain complex functions.

I've taught both Maths and Computer Science quite a bit, and there are abstract concepts that some people can never understand. Brain damage victims have shown that the ability to do certain types of advanced (or even basic) abstract reasoning can be lost.

I speak as someone who tossed a coin to decide whether to read fine-art or computer-science, and has taught other people to do both; I can vouch that it takes approximately equal effort to become a good programmer as it does to become a good artist.

So are you the person, who could teach me how to become a great game graphics designer or do you agree, that we'd just need a place, where we can bring both groups together?

However, search the Net for topics on game programming, then search the net for topics on game art. Go to the book store and look for books on game programming, then look for books on game art.

All I was saying is that I think there is much more material out there that makes it easier for one so inclined to learn game programming vs. game art. (Side note: I do know of one really cool book from Charles River on creating game characters in 3D... )

As for a place to meet, I would love to see that happen more. There are a growing number of efforts on the net where this has happened for example:

As for the post... I was speaking from my own experience. It is rare for an indie team to actually complete a game. Life tends to get in the way when you aren't getting paid many times, hence the Just do it comment. I meant you really have to stay commited to it to finish.

Not bad...but it seems the site doesn't really take it far enough? It seems you simply post a link to a project? It would be nice, if such a site would also support communication a bit and even support the actual development a bit more? Maybe some Sourceforge feature?

No problem...I think it would be a great idea to start a site to do exactly what you suggest though.

It really is a great idea. Sorry I was so pessimistic in my previous (long winded post). I really do wish it was easier to find artists to work on games.

I have been a programmer for a long time and know how long it takes to become good at it. I didn't mean to trivialize the amount of time and effort and talent it takes to become good at it. No offense meant.

No problem...I think it would be a great idea to start a site to do exactly what you suggest though.

It really is a great idea. Sorry I was so pessimistic in my previous (long winded post). I really do wish it was easier to find artists to work on games.

I have been a programmer for a long time and know how long it takes to become good at it. I didn't mean to trivialize the amount of time and effort and talent it takes to become good at it. No offense meant.

I absolutely agree with Zane--it takes just as much effort to create a good artist as it takes to create a good programmer. It's perhaps easier to get cracked on programming, with the abundance of programming packages out there and languages available, but to progress from a general, a-dime-a-dozen developer into even just somebody with a good coding style and clear, unintangled ideas about what you want and what it is to do, that takes years of true professional experience and relentless efforts on studying from seniors. It really isn't something that can be picked up in "21 days", like the dummy, nutshell, 21-days series promoted. And even with the aid of experience, not everybody will advance with the same pace either. And of course, it is also true that not everybody is made to be an artist or programmer. The high-level designing concept is just as talent-demanding and intuition-intensive as a good graphics design would per visual artist. Too bad we only have a limited life and usually can't be a cross-sector expert on all that we prefer to excel in.

I was sharing for two years with the Magicosm project. Actually doing game design and art. I left the team a few months ago. I've spent a considerable amount of time over the years designing board games and testing them, 15, nothing published. I think the best way to learn game design is making board games, since it doesnt take much time at all to make the pieces. So you focus your effort on design rather than construction. I also did a C game on the Atari back in 1991. At the moment I'm just hanging out and enjoying not contributing to a project That might change if I see something that looks like it has a good team and might be finished this decade

I am actively trying to get a paid dev job and have a few resumes out there. But of course I said that 20 years ago too Jobs I've been turned down for:

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