Garand Group (The)

Since we seem to have no shortage of M1 Garand rifle owners and perspective owners in the High Road I thought it might be interesting and maybe even enjoyable to start a Garand Group. We have clubs for all sorts of rifles so why not toss in a Garand Owners Group.

We also have no shortage of members who are very knowledgeable on the M1 Garand with a wealth of great information and help to share. That makes for a nice information exchange.

Of course there is also the opportunity to plaster up those pictures we all love doing but when posting pictures please include some information on the rifle, like how you got it and the era it was made.

The thread could also serve as a venue for parts. The guy who just got a beautiful H&R M1 Garand from CMP that is just about perfect with all the correct parts with the exception of a SA trigger housing and they want a H&R housing or the member with that nice collectable WWII Winchester and needs the correct trigger or rear sight aperture.

Tips and tricks for accurizing can be mentioned as well as tips and tricks for getting an older stock looking good.

Additionally good books covering the M1 Garand can be shared. Like the shop manuals by Jerry Kuhnhausen or books by Scott Duff and Bruce Canfield.

Also accessories like the bayonets used with the M1 or grenade launcher.

The rifle has a strong following so why not another M1 Garand thread to address it. :)

Ron

If you enjoyed reading about "Garand Group (The)" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!

Nice touch with the belt. Somewhere I have a grenade launcher and an older pretty nice bayonet I believe was an AFH version. Haven't see that in years. I also had a flare grenade at one time and haven't seen it in years either. :)

Bayonets have become quite expensive for good original ones, especially the uncut specimens.

Ron

kBob

January 18, 2013, 10:25 AM

I paid $5 for that original bayonet and sheath, I think about $2, for the belt, Not more than 75 cents per clip of ammo and a buck or so for the grenade launcher sight.

Of course 1969 was a while ago.......

While Garands have come and gone these accessories have followed me around except when I went overseas and they stayed with Mom & Dad one trip and a trust worthy buddy on another.

I had an M5A1 bayonet that I really liked but it was stolen from a rental storage shed while I was in grad school.

-kBob

Agentxman

January 20, 2013, 04:06 PM

If anyone needs parts here is a great site.
https://www.standardpartsllc.com/productcart/pc/sp_default.asp?

Jmurman

January 20, 2013, 04:18 PM

sounds good to me. I have some pictures of my Garand on my blog site.

Cesiumsponge

January 20, 2013, 04:19 PM

I actually started getting into the Garand and recently joined the GCA to satisfy eligibility to order my first CMP Garand. Unfortunately I came into the game late and it appears all the correct and collector-grade Garands are gone, so I'm hoping the CMP will send me a decent HRA service grade before these things dry up.

I don't know why I put it off for so long, but what a fantastic rifle. It's actually difficult to decide where to start simply because there is so much wealth in researched knowledge surrounding these. I thought the AR platform was complex. The Garand world is all brand new to me! The Garand will be one of the few historic items I own which will require the responsibility of being a caretaker while it's in my possession.

Are there a list of respected vendors that are frequently recommended for parts, clips, ammo, etc , and a list of vendors to avoid?

Reloadron

January 20, 2013, 05:52 PM

If anyone needs parts here is a great site.
https://www.standardpartsllc.com/productcart/pc/sp_default.asp?
Looks to be a good source of parts, thanks for posting that. Their pricing also seems reasonable.

Ron

Reloadron

January 20, 2013, 06:52 PM

Thought I would share some images of a stock project. There must be no less than a dozen ways out there to refinish a stock on a military surplus rifle. This is just one of several methods I have used.

A trip to the local Lowes, Home Depot, or any good hardware store will yield some 1 Lb packages of TSP (Tri Sodium Phosphate) which when mixed with hot water will draw decades of old oil out of the lumber:

http://www.bearblain.com/images/Stocks%20Sink%201.png

Yes, that is my duty rock to keep them from floating. The lighter stock on the left is original GI birch. I place the lumber in the deep sink with hot water and 1 Lb of TSP mixed in. The long sections need turned every 30 min or so and I scrub the wood down with a green scotch-brite pad every 30 min or so. Typically I let them soak a few hours.

Then the lumber is set out to dry:

http://www.bearblain.com/images/Stocks%202.png

The pictured wood is not quite dry but getting there. They can dry inside during the winter. Once dry a light sanding followed by various grits of steel wool till the wood is nice and smooth. Those dings and dents can be lifted (sometimes) using a wet rag and steam iron. Then if wanted a stain can be applied, I happen to like starting with a good oil based stain. Then again some 0000 steel wool finishing. After the steel wool wipe the wood down real well maybe even use a tack cloth to make sure every bit of steel wool dirt and residue is removed.

Once the stain is set I like using good old Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil just following the directions. Boiled linseed oil is another option as well as tung oils. Again following manufacturers directions and light coat after light coat. For the below stock I never stained it and left the wood natural.

http://www.bearblain.com/images/Stocks%203.png

Finally we reassemble the rifle and if done right it should look pretty good:

http://www.bearblain.com/images/Stocks%204.png

I have found when doing stocks we all develop our own little techniques to get the look we want. This stock has more of the "orange look" which is typical of many of the 1950s M1 Garands. This is one of those love it or hate it looks. :)

The store, with mine on the rack
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/Firearms/a978ebd4.jpg

P5 Guy

January 20, 2013, 08:48 PM

3 M1s from late 1943 thru 1955.

Reloadron

January 20, 2013, 08:58 PM

Looking good with the pictures people.

Ron

unlimited4x4

January 21, 2013, 11:51 AM

I am very jealous. A Garand has been on my wish list for some time.

Welding Rod

January 21, 2013, 12:41 PM

Would GIs normally oil the stocks of their issued rifles? Or was that normally done at a higher maintenance level?

Welding Rod

January 21, 2013, 12:50 PM

I haven't found anything funner to shoot than a Garand. And in my experience, as long as snug fitting wood is properly relieved in the right places, the spline ways for the front sight are either tight or peened if needed, and assuming the barrel is in good shape, they are pretty darn accurate guns too.

My favorites are the late production Springfields. These were some really well built guns. I have a couple and it is hard to believe how precisely fitting some of the parts are - particularly the op-rod to reciever fit.

Only part I am not crazy about is the later production rear sight pinion with only one nub to index into the rear reciever sight ear serrations. My understanding is the Lock Bar style had more nubs, but I have never seen one outside of the gun.

Anyone have a link to some good pictures of an uninstalled Lock Bar sight? Particularly the part of the pinion that engages the reciever ear serrations?

Reloadron

January 21, 2013, 06:43 PM

My understanding is the Lock Bar style had more nubs, but I have never seen one outside of the gun.

Anyone have a link to some good pictures of an uninstalled Lock Bar sight? Particularly the part of the pinion that engages the reciever ear serrations?

Somewhere around here I have a bag with old locking bar type rear sights which came in a few flavors with a short and later a long pinion, then a type II and type III Lock Bar. Not 100% but think it went that way. I'll try and get to digging around and see what I have I can photograph.

Reloadron

January 21, 2013, 06:46 PM

Would GIs normally oil the stocks of their issued rifles? Or was that normally done at a higher maintenance level?
I believe it was only done stateside or at least away from the battle field. Actually a damn good question as I had never given it any thought. I have seen stocks worked till they looked like glass, time and patience.

Ron

Reloadron

January 21, 2013, 06:47 PM

I am very jealous. A Garand has been on my wish list for some time.
Good things come to those who wait. :)

I am sure your day will come.

Ron

chris in va

January 21, 2013, 06:51 PM

My 1945 Springfield has dimples in the stock where the soldier would pound the bullet tips in the clip for reliable feeding.

I've thought about getting a new stock from the CMP but this one just has too much character.

ball3006

January 21, 2013, 06:51 PM

My M1D and I are happy......chris3

Welding Rod

January 21, 2013, 08:04 PM

My 1945 Springfield has dimples in the stock where the soldier would pound the bullet tips in the clip for reliable feeding.

I don't know if it is possible with GI brass, but I know some commercial 30-06 brass can be loaded into clips with the extractor groove behind the extractor groove ridge in the clip, which can foul up feeding.

In High School JROTC in the late '60s we wiped down the stocks of rifles being cleaned after having been used with blanks with oily rags. Just whatever LSA or PL-Special was used on the rifles after RBC was on the rags.

Drill team rifles got special treatment, one year it involved Johnsons liquid floor wax. I cringe now but they were pretty at the time with the MS Meyer white slings with brass keeper.

Our local National Guard Out fit in Florida had Garands up through 1972 and went directly to M-16A1s without passing through M-14s.

Summer of 1973 there was a Guard unit doing its two weeks at Ft. Polk with Garands and associated weapons. This is how I got to shoot the BAR and 1919. Another unit had M-14s and this was how I got to shoot the M-14E2 and M-79. I also shot an M-14 in the night firing class with an AN/PVS 2 Starlight.

In Third Armored Division around Frankfurt Germany in 1982 the standard sniper rifles were M-1D models with M84 scopes and in .30-06.

Edit: Just wanted to add that in 1973 there was National Match .30-06 on stripper clips in the ammo storage area at Polk which when i noted it I was told was for M1903A4s that were still floating about and had been used THAT YEAR by the ammo point officer.

-kBob

usnmars

January 22, 2013, 05:13 AM

The CMP has been good to me. I am a Garandaholic.

Snipers....
Top 2 are M1D's and the bottom is a M1c
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff175/nattcmars/the%20CMP/snipers.jpg
and the family portrait.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff175/nattcmars/the%20CMP/family.jpg

corky52

January 22, 2013, 06:21 AM

Usnmars, you have a handsome family!

Charlie

kBob

January 22, 2013, 03:34 PM

CMP Field Grade Springfield 730xxx

Very worn and ugly stock and obviously used for a lot of "Square bashing"

Looks nicer now.

-kBob

Reloadron

January 22, 2013, 04:38 PM

Usnmars, you obviously take this stuff seriously. :)
Really nice collection you have there.

kBob, just some tlc needed. :)

Ron

kBob

January 22, 2013, 06:48 PM

Well I replaced the stock with an american one as that Euro tree branch was gnawed on by rabid beavers, cracked, pinned with brass pins and so worn internally that the barrel and receiver group and trigger group wiggled around in it.

I replaced the butt plate with one not quite as bad. The bands are Beretta and the barrel is a VAB, I am thinking about having the muzzle recrowned or trying a DIY amd considering peening either the gas cylinder splines or the slots for the same in the barrel.

As is it is more accurate than say my Mossberg 500 shotgun with foster slugs but honestly a friend's beater winchester 94 in .30-30 out shoots it.

Still I did not come in last in either of the CMP 100 yard Garand fun shoots I was in and look forward to more.

-kBob

Reloadron

January 22, 2013, 07:07 PM

Well I replaced the stock with an american one as that Euro tree branch was gnawed on by rabid beavers, cracked, pinned with brass pins and so worn internally that the barrel and receiver group and trigger group wiggled around in it.

I replaced the butt plate with one not quite as bad. The bands are Beretta and the barrel is a VAB, I am thinking about having the muzzle recrowned or trying a DIY amd considering peening either the gas cylinder splines or the slots for the same in the barrel.

As is it is more accurate than say my Mossberg 500 shotgun with foster slugs but honestly a friend's beater winchester 94 in .30-30 out shoots it.

Still I did not come in last in either of the CMP 100 yard Garand fun shoots I was in and look forward to more.

-kBob
Getting the rifle's fit to stock was a good step with a change of stock. Without going overboard there are other little tricks that can be done to tighten the groups. Give this link a read. (http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/garand-accurizing-for-camp-perry/)

Next, without going ballistic on the trigger there are ways to improve it but just be real careful. A Google of M1 Trigger should get you some good links. Again, trigger work is a matter of being gentle using time and patience.

I am not suggesting glass bedding as it works best to see what you really have before worrying about things like bedding.

Ron

Nikdfish

January 22, 2013, 07:26 PM

HRA sn 5,575,xxx circa October 1954. I got this service grade M1 through the CMP in early 2008. All correct HRA except for an SA op rod & stock. All I've done is clean it up some apply a bit of tung oil & install a set of Orion 7 springs

http://www.skhowell.com/images/hra-sg-1-web.jpg

Nick

usnmars

January 22, 2013, 08:47 PM

www.dupagetrading.com is an awesome source for Garand parts. I snatch up some of the "distressed" parts bundles when they offer them. For the price and what you get you cant go wrong. They are an awesome source for original stocks too.

Here is a M1 that I put together from a CMP barreled receiver. The stock was split in several places and had a few large chunks missing. I rebuilt the stock and had a little fun with the build. The stock has 143 coats of lacquer on it wet sanded between coats, and I flame blued all of the small parts. I built it to match specs and it shoots the wings off a fly at 100. Purists may hate it but it is a fun and accurate rifle. It is kinda odd, I am young and cant stand the black rifles. Give me a Garand any day......

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff175/nattcmars/Match%20build/DSC01173.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff175/nattcmars/Match%20build/DSC01160.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff175/nattcmars/Match%20build/DSC01165.jpg
What it does at 100 before i found out that the front sight was loose
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff175/nattcmars/Match%20build/DSC01184.jpg

Big Bad Bob

January 22, 2013, 08:59 PM

Awesome thread!

I am ordering a CMP Service grade here shortly.

cal30_sniper

January 22, 2013, 09:29 PM

I thought I had some pictures of my Garand saved up on the computer, but I can't seem to find any but this one. I took this one a few summers ago when some buddies and I were home on leave and went out for a little shooting.

The Garand was a CMP Service Grade, Springfield Armory, 1950mfg. The wood stock was pretty soaked in cosmoline, so I grabbed one of these Boyd's when I got the chance. I kept the original stock too, it had a very nice tiger striping to the wood underneath. Someday I'll get the time to clean it up and refinish it. The parkerizing on the rifle is just about perfect, and the bore is in very good shape. It will put a whole clip into a 2MOA circle at 100 yards with Greek M2 Ball. That's good enough for what I need.

http://imageshack.us/a/img502/8769/p6101296.jpg

EDIT: Hey, found another one of the Garand and some of her stablemates:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7185/16292210150133608378833.jpg

dwstone1227

January 22, 2013, 09:49 PM

Mars- i love it. What a great looking M1.

Welding Rod

January 22, 2013, 10:19 PM

143 coats of laquer!!! I just about go nuts by coat 4 or 5 - and that is the very easy tung oil.

Looks sweet though!

cfullgraf

January 23, 2013, 12:05 AM

cal30_sniper, nice laminated stock. I am working on an M1 build project and ought to go that route.

cal30_sniper

January 23, 2013, 12:26 AM

I was very pleased with the fit and finish. A little larger all the way around than the factory wood, and a bit heavier, but that's not all a bad thing with a semi-automatic .30-06 as far as recoil is concerned.

It cut the groups in half. The Boyds stock was very well inletted for my receiver, and the action locks into it very tightly, unlike the factory wood. Besides, it's supposedly much stronger for buttstroking people in the face, haha.

Cesiumsponge

January 23, 2013, 01:19 AM

Is it even possible to get a WWII serial SA through the CMP today or will they all be post-WWII? I'm not sure if including a $100 donation and a pleading note will result in any better luck. All they have listed on the site are HRAs and SAs in a service grade. I'm a year or two late for correct and collector grades. The specials available look like receivers but with all new parts and I'm not really looking for a rifle with NM parts. I'm leaning towards purchasing the HRA. I want to grab something(s) at the CMP before there's even less to select from.

Is it possible to search around and slowly buy correct parts if the rifle has been rebuilt with other bits? I wish there was a cliffnotes version to absorb all this stuff. Starting from square one stinks because there is so much information out there, it kind of clutters things up.

Welding Rod

January 23, 2013, 01:29 AM

There are WWII recievered guns in the inventory. It is not uncommon at all on the Specials - at least not the last I checked about a year ago.

If you want an almost correct gun, buy the service grade special. Everything but the stock and stock metal should be right and in virtually new condition other than handling marks. But these will be late production guns. Safest buy IMO.

Welding Rod

January 23, 2013, 01:36 AM

Is it possible to buy a new old stock op-rod? Springfield late production preferred. Where might I find one?

Cesiumsponge

January 23, 2013, 02:09 AM

Problem is I want a Garand but don't know if I should go with something like the service grade which might be a mixmatch of parts that were naturally replaced as the rifle was rebuilt during it's service life, which might make it more historically genuine and adds character? Or go with a "service special" that appears to be later model productions with more correct parts. The idea of having something used in WWII or Korea is appealing but I want to shoot the snot out of it without having to put up with a fussy gun with a tired barrel. There is also the consideration of what will hold the most value in the future. I don't plan on selling but making a selection now that might pay dividends later is worth taking into account.

Looks like I made an error. CMP has "service special" and "special" grade and I was confusing the two. The service special has new wood and "associated hardware", which, Welding Rod, sounds like it's just buttstock parts? I assume some people hunt down an old stock or other parts in attempts to bring it closer to period-correctness, but it sounds like the serials on the SA service specials are all late productions?

By "safest buy", is there an inherent risk in purchasing a service grade with a mixmatch of parts? Or it's only risky in that you'll get more mixmatching if the primary goal was a correct rifle? I guess I'm also kind of stuck in the "HRA vs SA" because I can get either in a service or service special grade. I know the HRAs are postwar but it sounds like the service special SA's are postwar anyhow. I've heard anecdotal evidence that HRAs are "nicer" in fit and finish since there was no war-time rush to crank them out, but heard that the SA's are nice as well.

In the end, I haven't made any progress towards a decision at all. :banghead: It's also late and my brain has stopped functioning. I hope this makes sense in the morning.

Reloadron

January 23, 2013, 04:10 AM

Cesiumsponge, for a good shooter consider the service grade and depending on your budget a service grade in the $625 area where $650 gets a good shooter right to your door.

When you start getting into real collectables like the WWII rifles made by SA and Winchester it becomes an expensive project to get one of these rifles back to original parts to be correct for the serial number.

Anyway as to a shooter you will not go wrong with a basic service grade rifle. The Service Grade RM1HRASSP @ $950 + S&H gets you a pretty minty later rifle of H&R manufacture with great metal but for $625 I would opt for the service grade flavor for a good shooter. I guess some of it comes down to what your budget allows.

Ron

Reloadron

January 23, 2013, 04:13 AM

usnmars, a great example of what can be done with time and patience to a chunk of lumber. Hell, you can use that stock as a mirror to shave with. :)

Ron

kBob

January 23, 2013, 08:01 AM

Seems to me that the best bet on getting one you like is convincing the wife that the kids NEED to visit Red Stone Arsenal to view the rocket museum and oh by the way take a short side trip over to CMP South.

Looks like if you have your paperwork all in order you can treat it like a trip to your local gun store and pick up and fondle to your hearts content until you find the one in your class of condition that has the least onerous flaws then buy it.

Still that six didgit (june'42) Field grade from Danish service I got was and has been a lot better than the Blue Sky South Korean I got skined with in the 1980's and functions and is more accurate than the two rewelds I bought in years past.

I don't see how going with Service grade can be anything but better.

CMP does not take bribes or offer any favors on picking numbers yet I lucked out and got a number like I wanted. ( OK I originally wanted a specific H&R that once sat in slot number 112 of my high school armory and then had still fuzzy parkerization and sharpnumbers...but they laughed at that request)

Still lots of parts out there. One local guy that does shows lets you rumage for the markings you want. Also there is new production wood as has been noted, often much better than 60 plus year ,240 season changes, old walnut, birch or Euro beaver tree, that has been dragged through the mud of a couple of contenients and cared for by GIs speaking a host of languages.

They also serve as great display stands for your Garand bayonet collection......

-kBob

cfullgraf

January 23, 2013, 09:19 AM

By "safest buy", is there an inherent risk in purchasing a service grade with a mixmatch of parts? Or it's only risky in that you'll get more mixmatching if the primary goal was a correct rifle? I guess I'm also kind of stuck in the "HRA vs SA" because I can get either in a service or service special grade. I know the HRAs are postwar but it sounds like the service special SA's are postwar anyhow. I've heard anecdotal evidence that HRAs are "nicer" in fit and finish since there was no war-time rush to crank them out, but heard that the SA's are nice as well.

Virtually all of the service grade rifles available from CMP will be "mixmasters". It is rare that one has not gone through at least one arsenal rebuild at some point of its life.

One of the great features of the Garand is the interchangeability of parts. Unlike many firearms, parts do need to be fitted to the individual rifle. The bolt is the sole exception. The headspacing of the bolt needs to be checked when replacing a bolt or barrel, but frequently, no machining is necessary for a proper fit if just replacing the bolt.

This is why you will not see parts on a Garand marked with the receiver's serial number.

The service grades are great shooters.

The service grade specials generally are new, or little used rifles with new production wood. They are only available from post Korean war production runs, both Springfield and HRA.

They are also great shooters.

The choice between a Springfield or Harrington and Richardson is a personal preference. Both were made to the same specifications. Some say the machining finish of the HRAs is better than the Springfields, but that has no effect on the function of the rifle. I cannot see any difference in my examples.

A year and a half ago, there were lots of WWII serial number Springfields at the CMP South Store, I was on a search for particular serial number ranges. But, who knows now. Both of my CMP Specials (not Service Grade Specials) are WWII serial numbers. If you want a WWII serial number, order a Service Grade or a CMP Special and request a serial number less than 3.5 million. It will still be the luck of the draw and do not be disappointed if you do not get the serial number requested. Or go to one of the CMP stores and hand pick your own rifle.

Agonizing over the choice of M1 is part of the fun.

kBob

January 23, 2013, 10:21 AM

FOund a couple of pics that are digitial photos of paper film photos from about 1979 or so.

First is a comparison between one of my M-1 rewelds and a buddy's M-1A.

I think it shows the difference in the gas system fairly well and shows how the trigger mechanism was modified to allow the use of a box magazine. Of course the M-1A did not have the auto disconector assembly of the M-14 or a place to put one. My buddy debated supergluing on a fake selector lock and auto disconector for looks but never got around to it. By the time this phot was taken I had replaced all my rewelds innards and still had feeding issues and was about to trade it for an 1903 that had some issues as well.

The second photo is a comparison of another buddy's M-1 , HK91, and a Golden State Arms BM59 on a Springfield M-1 reciever. This is the BM59 I had the kaboom experience with shortly after this photo and which turned out to be a reweld, possibly of three seperate pieces.

-kBob

Welding Rod

January 23, 2013, 10:26 AM

"Safest" in that it is most likely to contain parts that work correctly and that aren't partially or mostly worn out already.

Cesiumsponge

January 23, 2013, 12:55 PM

Looks like I am leaning towards a service special HRA and gamble on a service SA with a request for a sub 3.5M serial. The trip is simply to far for me to do in person, WA state.

Welding Rod

January 23, 2013, 03:31 PM

I was lucky - I had a business trip out to Chicago and was able to manage a side trip to Camp Perry. It was great. I recommend a trip to CMP for any gun enthusiast if you swing it. You can really learn alot about the Garand there.

saltydog452

January 23, 2013, 04:15 PM

I can't swear to this being the absolute truuff, but some Garands when they were 'turned in', supposedly had a gawd-awful bunch of oil poured down the bore. That just might lead to an oil soaked stock.

salty

Reloadron

January 23, 2013, 05:51 PM

Camp Perry is a few hours away from me if that. One of these days I should make the trip to the store.

Years ago on a vacation trip we diverted in MA. to visit the part of the original Springfield Armory that is now a National Park. That was real enjoyable. Some serious history haunts those buildings.

Ron

Warp

January 23, 2013, 08:39 PM

So I have an Ultimak M12 mount sitting on my workbench, right next to a Leupold 2.5x28 IER 'scout scope'. Medium height rings on the way.

I think I might want a cheek/pad riser. Suggestions please?

Cesiumsponge

January 23, 2013, 10:32 PM

I've decided that I'm going to pull the trigger and go for a service grade special HRA and keep an eye out for a minty HRA stock with metal to turn it into a correct/collector grade rifle and pigeonhole it away after test firing to verify function.

Also I'm going to request a service grade SA in WWII SN and USGI stock and shoot the heck out of whatever they end up sending me and keep it the way it is because it's current configuration is based on the long journey it's made through various rebuilds.

Ideally I should pick up a third one, a CMP special grade and just shoot that since it's essentially new and keep the other two...one for it's WWII history and one for it's minty condition. I can begin to see why folks call this Garanditis. Hopefully in a few month's time, I'll actually have something to contribute.

Welding Rod

January 24, 2013, 12:05 AM

Ideally I should pick up a third one, a CMP special grade and just shoot that since it's essentially new...

That is not really accurate. I have owned 4 Specials. While they were overall nice guns and only one suffered a functional problem (a significant reciever problem that required a replacement rifle), they were not essentially new.

I had an op rod full of large rust flakes, another that is currently blossoming rust out from under the park, a worn op-rod tab, a handguard sheet metal piece with tabs broken off and others cracked, a badly bent and seriously distored lower band that the pin would fall right out of, 2 or 3 worn out rear sight pinions / pinion springs, a windage knob that puked its inards, and a receiver ear with significant wear on the rear sight serrations.

I am not complaining. These are old rebuilt guns and CMP makes this kind of stuff right if you bring it to their attention. My point is just that if you think a Special will be pristine (as I think the CMP catalogue clamis) that may not be the case. These guns are likely to contain parts that have already seen considerable service.

If you want the best chance to get fresh parts that shouldn't have issues, buy a second Service Grade Special.

Looked almost unfired internally; excellent shooter.
'Unorthodox' refinishing I guess; soaked in denatured alcohol, light sanding to take the finish but keep the character marks.

Cesiumsponge

January 26, 2013, 02:47 AM

That is not really accurate. I have owned 4 Specials. While they were overall nice guns and only one suffered a functional problem (a significant reciever problem that required a replacement rifle), they were not essentially new.

I had an op rod full of large rust flakes, another that is currently blossoming rust out from under the park, a worn op-rod tab, a handguard sheet metal piece with tabs broken off and others cracked, a badly bent and seriously distored lower band that the pin would fall right out of, 2 or 3 worn out rear sight pinions / pinion springs, a windage knob that puked its inards, and a receiver ear with significant wear on the rear sight serrations.

I am not complaining. These are old rebuilt guns and CMP makes this kind of stuff right if you bring it to their attention. My point is just that if you think a Special will be pristine (as I think the CMP catalogue clamis) that may not be the case. These guns are likely to contain parts that have already seen considerable service.

If you want the best chance to get fresh parts that shouldn't have issues, buy a second Service Grade Special.

That is certainly surprising and thanks for the head's up. I was under the impression, based on their description and the asking price, that all the metal was refinished (and I'd assume inspected) so I'd have expected it to basically be a "new rifle" rather than "parts that may or may not function properly because of dimensional errors or rust, but look new"

I'm guessing with my luck, by the time I recover the funds for a third Garand, the service grade specials will be gone. Better one than none though!

RKirby

January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM

That is not really accurate. I have owned 4 Specials. While they were overall nice guns and only one suffered a functional problem (a significant reciever problem that required a replacement rifle), they were not essentially new.

I had an op rod full of large rust flakes, another that is currently blossoming rust out from under the park, a worn op-rod tab, a handguard sheet metal piece with tabs broken off and others cracked, a badly bent and seriously distored lower band that the pin would fall right out of, 2 or 3 worn out rear sight pinions / pinion springs, a windage knob that puked its inards, and a receiver ear with significant wear on the rear sight serrations.

I am not complaining. These are old rebuilt guns and CMP makes this kind of stuff right if you bring it to their attention. My point is just that if you think a Special will be pristine (as I think the CMP catalogue clamis) that may not be the case. These guns are likely to contain parts that have already seen considerable service.

If you want the best chance to get fresh parts that shouldn't have issues, buy a second Service Grade Special.
Great info in this thread!
I'm also about ready to order a CMP Garand before they are all gone and had pretty much decided to go with the Special mainly due to it having a new Criterion barrel. I'm looking for a shooter that will be passed on to my son eventually, rather than a safe queen. But on the other hand, I don't want a gun built with substandard parts just to have a new barrel. I can re-barrel a service grade down the road if it becomes necessary.

Do I need to reconsider my options?

Reloadron

January 26, 2013, 11:00 AM

Great info in this thread!
I'm also about ready to order a CMP Garand before they are all gone and had pretty much decided to go with the Special mainly due to it having a new Criterion barrel. I'm looking for a shooter that will be passed on to my son eventually, rather than a safe queen. But on the other hand, I don't want a gun built with substandard parts just to have a new barrel. I can re-barrel a service grade down the road if it becomes necessary.

Do I need to reconsider my options?
No, I don't think you need to reconsider your options. Overall here is my take / opinion.

There are many ways to come by a M1 Garand. There are gun shops that occasionally have one, there are pawn shops, there are listings on Armslist, there is the guy with one in tow at the gun show and finally there is the CMP. For the very savvy Garand shopper several of the first options are quite doable, however, for the less than savvy shopper the CMP is the best option.

So if I buy a M1 Garand through the CMP will it perform flawlessly the moment I shove an eight round EnBlock clip in it? The odds are very, very good that it will. However, to be fair about things take a good look at an M1 Garand's IPB (Illustrated Parts Breakdown) and note the number of moving critical parts for the rifle's normal operation. The M1 Garand is a fairly complex piece of machinery. The biggest thing the M1 buyer who buys a CMP rifle has going for them is they will likely get a good functioning rifle out of the box. With other sources the odds of getting a pig in a poke greatly increase, especially for the less than savvy buyer. Next and really important is if the rifle has a fault which though unlikely, the CMP is there for you backing up your rifle. The other options don't quite offer this. Support after the sale is very rare in the Garand market place. Not everyone selling Garands has the additional parts to support the rifles.

The days of a $250 shooter Garand are long gone and buck for buck the CMP prices can't be beat. I constantly see Garands at gun shows selling for $900 to $1,000 that are not half the rifle as to form, fit and function a $650 CMP rifle is. Really sucks to pay $900 for a Garand at a show only to find later the muzzle and throat erosion is bad or the head space is bad. With a CMP rifle you know what you are getting.

The only trick if we want to call it that is knowing what grade rifle we want from the CMP. One thing is for sure, regardless of the grade, you will get what you pay for and in the off chance you don't the CMP is right there for you. That counts quite a bit. Use this thread to ask questions to help you decide which grade is right for you.

Just My Take...
Ron

RKirby

January 26, 2013, 01:02 PM

Thanks.

That's the kind of information a "less than savvy" Garand buyer, like me, needs to read. This is the very reason I decided to get mine from the CMP rather than a private sale or gun show transaction. I just need to decide between the two "CMP Special" options. The new barrel may be the best option for me.

Reloadron

January 26, 2013, 03:07 PM

Well if we take a look here at the Special Grade M1 Garand options (http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/m1garand.htm) let's see if this is what you are talking about:

RM1SPECIAL
M1 Garand, CMP Special (.30-06)
Allow 30-60 days for delivery.
M1 Garand Springfield Armory receiver. This is a completely refurbished rifle consisting of an original M1 Garand Springfield receiver, new production Criterion barrel, new production American Walnut stock and handguards, and new web sling. Receiver and most other parts are refinished USGI, but some parts may be new manufacture.

RM1308SPECIAL
M1 Garand, CMP Special (.308)
Allow 30-60 days for delivery.
M1 Garand Springfield Armory receiver. This is a completely refurbished rifle consisting of an original M1 Garand Springfield receiver, new production Criterion barrel, new production American Walnut stock and handguards, and new web sling. Receiver and most other parts are refinished USGI, but some parts may be new manufacture. A .308 spacer block is installed to prevent the loading of a .30-06 round into the chamber.

Both of those rifles are M1 Garand Springfield Armory receivers. Both have a new aftermarket Criterion barrel. The only real difference being one is chambered in the original 30-06 chambering while the other is chambered in 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester. Both rifles are fitted with aftermarket American Walnut stocks and stock metal. Neither of these rifles would capture the interest of a serious Garand Collector which really matters not. Both would likely be an excellent shooter leaving the buyer pretty much only with a choice of caliber. Your $995 plus S&H pretty much guarantees you the best available parts used to build the rifle.

Something else worth considering that several members here have bought are the lesser cost Service Grade M1 Garand rifles in the $625 range, so lets take a look at a few:

RM1SAS
M1 Garand, SA (Springfield) Service Grade
Please allow 60-90 days for delivery
*See above for grade description and the above says:
SERVICE GRADE: (Good to Very Good)
Service Grade Rifles show less wear and better appearance than Field or Rack Grades. Good to very good condition. Rifle wear will be exhibited by worn and mixed colors of the parkerized finish. There may be some minor pitting on the metal parts. Wood will be either Walnut, Birch, Beech or other variety and will be basically sound but may have minor hairline cracks, dings, scratches and gouges. Wood may not match in color or type of wood. Wood may be of new production on Service Grade Garands. Bores will be generally good with only minor imperfections. The barrel crown may be nicked, but the muzzle will gauge "3 or less" and the throat erosion will gauge less than 5.

The only difference is manufacturer and obviously any H&R Manufacturer rifle will be post WWII. Most of these rifles members have bought have come with the new aftermarket American Walnut stocks. The ones I have seen all had very nice metal and finish. Something else to note is "Bores will be generally good with only minor imperfections. The barrel crown may be nicked, but the muzzle will gauge "3 or less" and the throat erosion will gauge less than 5".

This is all about the barrel. The rifles members have gotten seem to all have been ME (Muzzle Erosion have been less than 1 and the TE (Throat Erosion) has been less than 2. Not to say every rifle will gauge like that but that is about what the members have been posting. Each rifle includes a tag wit those numbers.

Paying for a special grade ensures new lumber and a new barrel. You need to weigh the cost difference and figure how much a new barrel is worth to you.

Just My Take
Ron

RKirby

January 26, 2013, 04:46 PM

Ron -

Thanks for your valuable input. I'll make up my mind this weekend and get my order in Monday morning. The Service Grade may be the best value if those gauge numbers are really representative of what's being shipped now.

Cesiumsponge

January 26, 2013, 05:23 PM

I just mailed my completed order form via USPS Express for a HRA service grade special and SA service grade with a WWII SN request. Hope to pick up a SA service grade special when funds recover and if it's still an option being sold. I think once the service grade specials run out, it's going to be hard to find anything near collector-grade ever again. I've already missed out on the correct and collector grades and the Winchesters, and now I have to pay for it by trying to buy a pristine, properly marked GI stock from an honest seller at current market pricing to put on a service grade special.

RM1SASSP M1 Garand, Service Grade Springfield Special.
allow 30-60 days for delivery.
SA collector grade metal in excellent almost new condition. Walnut stocks and handguards and associated hardware are new manufacture. NOT original SA manufacture.
$950 Effective 1-3-2012
S&H $24.95 per rifle

COLLECTOR GRADE: (Excellent)
Collector Grade Rifles have 95% or better overall original metal finish. Rifle bores are excellent with throat erosion under 3 and muzzle wear of 2 or less. Collector Grade rifles have all original parts as they came from the manufacturer. Wood will have a few handling marks and minor dings and scratches. Stocks have the appropriate inspector's cartouche. Data sheets prepared by CMP armorers are included in the butt trap of each Collector Grade Rifle. Excellent condition - little or no use. Limited quantities are occasionally available. Prices start at $1595 depending on manufacturer

As mentioned, the CMP customer service is outstanding. The barrels on the SGS rifles I have seen have mearsured in the 0 to 2 range.

The Criterion is a nice barrel. The ones I have owned have nice snug ways for the front sight splines, without any peening necessary.

I use a Special for match use. But that is mostly because I don't want to wear out my SGSs with regular high volume shooting as they are essentially brand new guns. They look like the only shooting they ever did was test firing - I don't mean the visible exterior metal finish, which like all 50 year old guns may have some handling marks, I mean the wearing surfaces of the metal parts.

Nothing wrong with a Special, like I said, I have owned 4, but you should understand that they may contain some parts that have already provided considerable service. Most small parts are easy to replace if there is a problem, but something like partially worn rear sight serrations on the left receiver ear are something that is not too pleasant to find and hard to complain about as it is a refinished used part per the description (assuming it still holds the rear sight in place upon firing when you get it).

My Specials have had better exterior finishes than my SGSs as the Specials had almost no handling marks on their new park.

Double Vision

January 26, 2013, 07:09 PM

I'd really like to get a Garand in .308. :)

Reloadron

January 26, 2013, 07:39 PM

I'd really like to get a Garand in .308. :)
:) So would I.

I do have one that is chambered in 7mm-08 Remington that is quite the shooter. About maybe 15 years ago I took a NRA Gunsmith course to be a M1 Garand armorer and that was my project rifle for the course. I had ordered a .308 barrel from Brownell's before the course began, matter of fact I ordered two, one for me and one for my brother-in-law. They shipped the wrong barrels and I got the 7mm-08 barrels 3 days before leaving for NC and the course. So we both built 7mm-08 Garands and bedded them and used all the national match tricks we were taught. Brownell's made good and sent the correct barrels free so I have here a brand new M1 Garand .308 barrel labeled 1:10 twist 04-97 (April 1997) :) . Hopefully I'll eventually grab another Garand worth re barreling and finally have a .308 Garand. With my retirement looming I figure it will make a good retirement project.

Ron

RKirby

January 27, 2013, 04:50 PM

For those that have recently ordered from CMP - how long is the actual wait time compared to the stated 60-90 days?

akolleth

January 27, 2013, 05:43 PM

Gotta love them Garands.

Mine is a total mix-master: 1.1 million Springfield receiver, manufactured January of 1943. After the war she was sent over to the Danes, they re-barelled her with a VAR barrel, and eventually sent her back. Somewhere in transit or when the CMP got a hold if it it was fixed up with some Italian internal parts in there. I bought it from the CMP north store as a woodless rack grade, and found a cheap Korean stock with some nice character (rack numbers) to complete it up.

It is one of only two firearms I would never sell (unless absolutely forced to)

I just put the ultimak/rings/scope on this evening. I only have maybe 160 rounds through it, although I shot an AQT with it at an Appleseed and scored 49/50 on stage 1 (still with the irons, of course) with HXP M2 ball from the CMP.

Outstanding! I need to see if that arrangement is legal for the vintage sniper rifle matches at my range.

The cat doesn't seem to be too impressed though.:)

Johannes_Paulsen

February 3, 2013, 08:59 AM

Just ordered a Springfield Service Grade from CMP in January.

Any suggestions on what I should do (in terms of cleaning/etc.) once I receive it? Not only first Garand, but also this will be the first rifle I've owned....

Reloadron

February 3, 2013, 09:41 AM

Just ordered a Springfield Service Grade from CMP in January.

Any suggestions on what I should do (in terms of cleaning/etc.) once I receive it? Not only first Garand, but also this will be the first rifle I've owned....
Congratulations on your new rifle, well, new to you anyway! :)

This should help with the proper care and cleaning. (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=cleaning%20m1%20garand&source=web&cd=5&sqi=2&ved=0CEwQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.springfield-armory.com%2Fdownload.php%3Fasset%3DM1GarandManual.pdf&ei=m3QOUamKBeTH0QG7pICAAQ&usg=AFQjCNHBdnlhmgPacnkrUy_GMJ90VNjY9Q&bvm=bv.41867550,d.dmg&cad=rja) There are also several good videos out there on YouTube so a Google of M1 Garand Cleaning should bring up some good hits.

For those who have just ordered the CMP is very good at filling orders with many receiving their rifles long before the foretasted dates. Just be patient and remember that good things come to those who wait. :)

Warp, really sweet rifle you have there. Thanks for posting where you got the scope, rings and mounts from.

Ron

Superpsy

February 3, 2013, 04:46 PM

Woot! Another one in line here. I ordered a service grade H&R and Springfield Armory because I couldn't decide which to get. :D. Looking forward to owning this piece of history. I figured I'd regret it forever if I didn't have at least one garand in my collection.

Reloadron

February 3, 2013, 06:08 PM

Woot! Another one in line here. I ordered a service grade H&R and Springfield Armory because I couldn't decide which to get. :D. Looking forward to owning this piece of history. I figured I'd regret it forever if I didn't have at least one garand in my collection.
Congratulations! Hey, Central Ohio? You could have drove a few hours and picked one out to take home. :)

Ron

zeos

February 3, 2013, 07:15 PM

www.dupagetrading.com

thanks for the link, i am definitely gonna check out their rifles. just need to sell one of my ARs first.

Sistema1927

February 3, 2013, 09:18 PM

Many years ago when I ordered a Service Grade from CMP I included a note asking them to send me "a shooter". They sent me a 5.9 million Springfield mix-master that has been stellar. I soon installed a Holbrook device that keeps the bolt back until you retract it (like an M14), and which doesn't eject the empty clip w/o hitting the clip release.

This past week I put new Dupage wood on it, and it now looks as good as if shoots. I also received a Schuster adjustable gas plug, but haven't installed it yet.

Superpsy

February 3, 2013, 09:47 PM

Congratulations! Hey, Central Ohio? You could have drove a few hours and picked one out to take home. :)

Ron
I know but I actually wanted a little bit of the surprise of the mail order and I didn't feel like spending 4 hours in the car on a day off. :)

AJMBLAZER

February 3, 2013, 09:51 PM

Count me on the list of "want to have one some day".

Anyone using that new gas plug that isn't adjustable? Just increases the gas chamber volume. Supposed to make it safe and reliable with about any reasonable commercial .30-06 load.

Noticing piles of .30-06 on the shelves at Walmart and Meijer has me thinking again...

jaxbeach904

February 7, 2013, 04:01 PM

Count me on the list of "want to have one some day".

Anyone using that new gas plug that isn't adjustable? Just increases the gas chamber volume. Supposed to make it safe and reliable with about any reasonable commercial .30-06 load.

Noticing piles of .30-06 on the shelves at Walmart and Meijer has me thinking again...
Yeah I bought one from Garand Gear and it works awesome. Its idiot proof and has worked flawlessly so far for both my surp and comm ammo. And I have to say that Eric was more than extremely helpful when I had a problem with checkout.

AJMBLAZER

February 7, 2013, 04:21 PM

Good to hear. That puts a Garand back on my list.

Dr. Leaky

February 11, 2013, 10:23 AM

I sold my AR-15 safe queen and am waiting on my .308 CMP Special. Thanks to all who have posted some great info - can't wait for my first Garand.

CaptainGeorgia

February 11, 2013, 11:40 AM

I just went to the CMP over the weekend and got a new production barrel and 3 cans of ammo. Question: should a regular, experienced gunsmith be able to do the reaming and headspacing/timing? I've heard, given the proper tools for the job, that rebarreling a Garand isn't much different that any other rifle, generally speaking.
Any truth to that?

Double Vision

February 11, 2013, 11:42 AM

This weekend we stopped at the South Store.
There were no field or service grades in the racks, mostly specials and UP from there.
I picked up a .308 and also a nice Special, serial number 777,7XX with 0+. I can't wait to try them out!

Ordered a Special grade in .30-06, my order was in the pile they got on 1/2/13.

Got my DBU and they cashed my check, but still waiting. Didn't notice the tiny print on the form that said a check might delay up to two weeks. Noticed others that ordered Specials around the time that I did with credit cards have their rifles in hand now...kind of a bummer. But I am understanding and patient.

Reloadron

February 11, 2013, 01:45 PM

I just went to the CMP over the weekend and got a new production barrel and 3 cans of ammo. Question: should a regular, experienced gunsmith be able to do the reaming and headspacing/timing? I've heard, given the proper tools for the job, that rebarreling a Garand isn't much different that any other rifle, generally speaking.
Any truth to that?
I have replaced the barrels on a good number of M1 Garands. The only things of great importance is having the correct receiver wrench and a good barrel vise with the correct bushing for an M1 Garand barrel. You also need the correct tools to properly index the new barrel. You want a smith who is very familiar with the M1 Garand and a smith with the correct tools. Once the new barrel is correctly indexed and it must be correctly indexed, the finishing reaming is done for head space. I like the Clymer pull through reamers for this part in .308 or 30-06 chambers as most new Garand barrels come "short chambered".

Ron

CaptainGeorgia

February 11, 2013, 01:59 PM

Thats what I was afraid of. The problem is, there doesn't seem to be a gunsmith in the Columbia, SC area who specializes in Garands. I just don't want my little piece of history to become a thing of the past, if it gets damaged in the process. Anyone have any suggestions?

Reloadron

February 11, 2013, 02:40 PM

Thats what I was afraid of. The problem is, there doesn't seem to be a gunsmith in the Columbia, SC area who specializes in Garands. I just don't want my little piece of history to become a thing of the past, if it gets damaged in the process. Anyone have any suggestions?
When I retire from the "Real Job" in several months I may get back into it but will need another FFL. I still have all my tools from the old gun shop days, just need to find them. :)

Hopefully another member can suggest a reputable smith. I do see some online but can't attest to how good they are or not. You really want someone who knows what they are doing so as not to get a Bubba job, in which case the rifle will never be right with the new barrel. I am not trying to worry you, rather saying make damn sure you get a smith competent on the M1 Garand.

Ron

CaptainGeorgia

February 11, 2013, 02:46 PM

When I retire from the "Real Job" in several months I may get back into it but will need another FFL. I still have all my tools from the old gun shop days, just need to find them. :)

Hopefully another member can suggest a reputable smith. I do see some online but can't attest to how good they are or not. You really want someone who knows what they are doing so as not to get a Bubba job, in which case the rifle will never be right with the new barrel. I am not trying to worry you, rather saying make damn sure you get a smith competent on the M1 Garand.

Ron
Thanks Ron.
I'm not above travelling a bit to take it to someone who knows M1s...any place in the southeast is a possibility for me.
Thanks in advance everyone.

Welding Rod

February 22, 2013, 04:07 PM

If you haven't heard, the Springfield Service Grade Specials were announced as sold out yesterday.

As of yesterday, that was the most desireable M1 CMP offered as a regular in stock item.

No Collectors, no Corrects, and only HRA SGSs now. Have to wonder how much longer for those too.

Now is certainly the time to buy if you want a chance at a gun in like new condition at a great price... and too late now it appears for one that was made by Springfield.

Fortunately for me, I sent my order in for SA SGS serval days ago, so I am pretty stoked about that.

Reloadron

February 22, 2013, 05:12 PM

If you haven't heard, the Springfield Service Grade Specials were announced as sold out yesterday.

As of yesterday, that was the most desireable M1 CMP offered as a regular in stock item.

No Collectors, no Corrects, and only HRA SGSs now. Have to wonder how much longer for those too.

Now is certainly the time to buy if you want a chance at a gun in like new condition at a great price... and too late now it appears for one that was made by Springfield.

Fortunately for me, I sent my order in for SA SGS serval days ago, so I am pretty stoked about that.
Thanks for posting the update. The CMP program going back to the DCM days has had a long and glorious history just like the M1 Garand and all the fine rifles and pistols it has made available.

I also suggest anyone contemplating make the move on what you can get now.

Ron

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