Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Originally Posted by alfablue

Which implies that he can ORDER that to be done, as well.

And we know that Congress has passed laws that assassination is not legal.

Since dump tells us that he can pardon himself, and that he's above the law, it's pretty clear WHY he's buddy-buddy with Korea and Russia, and making all of our allies really angry with him. He associates with the strong arm dictator.

This guy is pure evil to the United States of America.

They are arguing the same thing that has been argued multiple times in the past, and which has never actually been decided by the Supreme Court -- Can a sitting president be indicted and forced to stand trial while in office.

I think legal scholars are split on the question, and there is probably enough reading material for you on the subject to fill your day, if you're interested.

No one is arguing that the president is above the law or ultimately can't be prosecuted for his acts. The argument is that while he is in office, Congress would first have to impeach him (which even this congress would do if he killed someone, or had them killed), then he would be prosecuted.

That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

Barriers to employment elsewhere, primarily, at least in my case. Not exactly as easy to cross international borders permanently as it is a state border. Add in the extra time and expense to become licensed as an attorney even in another common law country, and yeah, not going to happen any time soon.

Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Originally Posted by SJHovey

They are arguing the same thing that has been argued multiple times in the past, and which has never actually been decided by the Supreme Court -- Can a sitting president be indicted and forced to stand trial while in office.

I think legal scholars are split on the question, and there is probably enough reading material for you on the subject to fill your day, if you're interested.

No one is arguing that the president is above the law or ultimately can't be prosecuted for his acts. The argument is that while he is in office, Congress would first have to impeach him (which even this congress would do if he killed someone, or had them killed), then he would be prosecuted.

From some levels, you are correct.

But this guy thinks he can pardon himself. Which does mean he THINKS he can't be prosecuted for his acts. Based on what Congress can do, the worst they can do is remove him from office. That's it. So he can call a strike on some US official, committing a murder, and pardon himself. And the only thing Congress can do is remove him from office.

Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Originally Posted by alfablue

From some levels, you are correct.

But this guy thinks he can pardon himself. Which does mean he THINKS he can't be prosecuted for his acts. Based on what Congress can do, the worst they can do is remove him from office. That's it. So he can call a strike on some US official, committing a murder, and pardon himself. And the only thing Congress can do is remove him from office.

A president pardoning himself is an entirely different beast. As I recall, that same issue came up during Nixon, and I'm pretty sure that there aren't many people out there who think a president could successfully pardon himself, even those who thought that a president can't be indicted while in office.

Now, if anyone were to try it, it would probably be Trump. Personally I think that effort would ultimately fail.

That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

The very standard response to any negative feeling of the US. Are you just trying to be stereotypical? Of do you really think that everything the US has done is justified?

I certainly don't think the country is perfect, or hasn't made some very significant errors.

That said, I'm happy I'm living here and I can't think of anyplace I'd rather live. Scooby and Kep seem intelligent enough, and certainly capable of relocating if they really wanted to. I was just curious why they hadn't.

That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Originally Posted by SJHovey

I certainly don't think the country is perfect, or hasn't made some very significant errors.

That said, I'm happy I'm living here and I can't think of anyplace I'd rather live. Scooby and Kep seem intelligent enough, and certainly capable of relocating if they really wanted to. I was just curious why they hadn't.

No matter where you go, you are still an American. So why leave when you can try to make it better.

We will leave when it's clear that there is no return, but I very much don't see that point- while it sucks right now, it's still better than 1968, and I'm sure we will go there before we go full Nazi. Still, the trend to a dictatorship that favors one kind of people over another, and the people in this country thinking that is a good idea is very disappointing.

Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Originally Posted by alfablue

No matter where you go, you are still an American. So why leave when you can try to make it better.

We will leave when it's clear that there is no return, but I very much don't see that point- while it sucks right now, it's still better than 1968, and I'm sure we will go there before we go full Nazi. Still, the trend to a dictatorship that favors one kind of people over another, and the people in this country thinking that is a good idea is very disappointing.

Not sure this is better than 1968. You have a combination of 1968 and 1972-73 going on at the same time this time. That's a doubling down we've never had before.

Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Originally Posted by SJHovey

A president pardoning himself is an entirely different beast. As I recall, that same issue came up during Nixon, and I'm pretty sure that there aren't many people out there who think a president could successfully pardon himself, even those who thought that a president can't be indicted while in office.

Now, if anyone were to try it, it would probably be Trump. Personally I think that effort would ultimately fail.

I'm not sure why you don't see that as the immediate threat. This president thinks he is above the law, they propose that he can shoot someone, and not be indited for it. And since he can pardon himself, he can then do that, and not be prosecuted after Congress impeaches him out of office.

That is incredibly dangerous.

Heck, he thinks he can't be indited for things he did BEFORE he was president. And since he can pardon himself, whatever he did that was against the law, he can pardon himself for now, and be free after ending the presidency. That's completely insane.

Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Originally Posted by SJHovey

They are arguing the same thing that has been argued multiple times in the past, and which has never actually been decided by the Supreme Court -- Can a sitting president be indicted and forced to stand trial while in office.

I think legal scholars are split on the question, and there is probably enough reading material for you on the subject to fill your day, if you're interested.

No one is arguing that the president is above the law or ultimately can't be prosecuted for his acts. The argument is that while he is in office, Congress would first have to impeach him (which even this congress would do if he killed someone, or had them killed), then he would be prosecuted.

That is not what they are "arguing".

They are flat out telling you he cannot be indicted, subpoenaed, or compelled to appear in court in any way. That he is above the law, and does not have to follow it. That he can kill people willfully with no consequences. And if such efforts were made toward him, he's still beyond the reach of the law because he can simply pardon himself for whatever crimes he has committed.

And you'll be ok with that because, after all, "he has the authority".

When are you going to start listening to what they are actually telling you, instead of "interpreting" what they are saying.

Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Originally Posted by SJHovey

A president pardoning himself is an entirely different beast. As I recall, that same issue came up during Nixon, and I'm pretty sure that there aren't many people out there who think a president could successfully pardon himself, even those who thought that a president can't be indicted while in office.

Now, if anyone were to try it, it would probably be Trump. Personally I think that effort would ultimately fail.

You have an unbridled, almost na´ve, trust in today's institutional constraints on a president, and the people of this country. It's almost charming that you have such trust, given what we've seen the last 30 years.