[TAPE 1, SIDE A]

This is Kathy Nasstrom for the Southern Oral History Program interviewing
Eva Clayton on July 18, 1989. I'd like to begin with a general question
about family background and if there are particular family or
educational experiences you'd like to note here in terms of your
interest in civil rights and the commitments that you've shown and the
kinds of work you've taken on.

Well, let me just say a little bit about my background. I'm from a small
but relatively, [by] North Carolina sizes, relatively large community. I
was born in a place called Savannah, Georgia. Came from a typical small
family. There were only two of us, my brother and myself. My father was
in the insurance business, and I gather in some ways, though he was not
part owner, he was part of the leadership. He was insurance director for
the state of Georgia and had a staff of, I guess it was, 50 people. My
father only [had] an eighth grade education formally, but later went on
to take his GED and went to whatever they call the insurance institute.
So, he's what you call an itinerant business person. My mother, similar
situation, was a teacher but never graduated from college. She went to
normal college, which was in those days equivalent to a junior college.
One of the things that strikes me [about] both my parents is an undying
loyalty to one business. He worked for one company for forty-two years.
That's something I probably said I wasn't going to do. But also out of
that experience both my brother and I both said we were going to one day
own that insurance company. That didn't happen, but
anyhow, that was somewhat of a notion. My father was the kind, gentle,
patient, understanding person. My mother was understanding but very
demanding, high standards, workaholic, A-type, and probably, if [she]
ever had the education, could have been anything in the world she wanted
to be. And never doubted for a moment her abilities. Confident and
somewhat arrogant, knowing who she was, and that, but for color, she was
superior. So I had that knowledge. My mother also had the understanding
that her father was white, and she resented that. So in many ways I came
with that sort of understanding in my bones
[unclear] . Both of them wanted for their children to be [UNCLEAR] and both of us did that. At first I wanted to be
a doctor——missionary. My ambition was to be a
missionary in Africa, and at that time in my life Albert Schweitzer was
the hero in my life. He was a genius; he was the philosopher; he was a
musician; he was a medicine man and also had a religious . . . You know,
if you've got to think of somebody you can be, why not pick the very
best? But that soon dissipated. So I went to college, with that kind of
preconceived notion which didn't materialize. And I don't think I've
lost that too much. I haven't gone to Africa but one day I will, but
under different circumstances other than being a missionary. So I think
that background and those original motivations are very much there.

Would you recount briefly your post-high school education, the schools
you went to and the years you spent at those schools?

EVA CLAYTON:

Well, I graduated from Johnson C. Smith as an undergraduate with a major
in biology and general science. At that time I thought I was going to be
a pre-med student. I got married and we came to Durham, and my husband's
in law school. While he's in law school, I'm in graduate school in
biology and did some research at the University of North Carolina. I was
in grad school at North Carolina Central. Had children, and didn't go to
school for a while after. I think I finished my master's, it's been so
long ago, 1963? I don't . . .

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

1963?

EVA CLAYTON:

I think. And I'm not recalling this, but I think that's true. Then I
worked for the University of North Carolina in gastrionology for two and
a half years while my husband was . . . We lived in Durham a year after
that, too. We came to Warren County and again I taught school in the
nearby junior college. It was called Kittrell Junior College at that
time. It was a school affiliated with the church that I grew up with,
the AME Methodist Church. It's no longer in existence. I got involved in
civil rights. My husband was an attorney, at that time the only black
attorney in our county. I became interested in law school, so eventually
I went to law school. I went a year at North Carolina Central, and then
went a year at the University of North Carolina. Had my fourth child,
and that was the end of my law career. Those are the schools I attended
in between having children.

As I was thinking about questions for this, I did sense that the time
line was that you had more or less gotten out of
college about the time that the civil rights movement, in terms of
sit-ins and protests, got rolling on college campuses.

EVA CLAYTON:

I was out, yeah, I was out.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

But then am I right you were working probably at UNC at that time?

EVA CLAYTON:

Somewhat.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

Would you recount what you recall about what was going on with college
students at UNC at that point, what you remember from other North
Carolina communities, and your perspective on it, having just recently
finished college?

EVA CLAYTON:

Although I was involved as an employee at UNC, I don't recall very much,
my recollection isn't very vivid as to what happened at UNC. I do recall
a little more of what happened at North Carolina Central, the students
in the marches and the protests in that area. I also recall when we
moved to Warren County . . . The movement takes a while, it goes in
waves, and so it may be in the college campus, [then] two years and
three years later it's in the communities themselves. In Warren County
you were about three or four years behind the student movement. There
was a movement in North Carolina called, I can't think of the name of
it, it was an adjunct of the NAACP, I cannot think of the name. But they
were college kids who worked to free, they called them freedom riders,
or . . .

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

Are you talking about SNCC?

EVA CLAYTON:

It wasn't SNCC. There was something indigenous to North Carolina. At any
rate, we requested for that youth leadership to come to Warren County
and they helped to mobilize marches and to inspire
and to work with the youth that were involved. So in addition to knowing
what the college kids did on North Carolina Central, I was intimately
involved with the high school kids who protested the local drugstore,
who protested [by] going to the various department stores, or those kind
of things. So I served as their advisor. But we also were assisted by
this youth organization I can't think of the name of, who assigned two
people to come to us and they stayed for I guess about four months. It
was the sort of thing young people did more than adults, but adults were
very supportive. I was there probably more than many other adults were.
But it was clearly a youth driven activity. I noticed your comments
about your interest in women earlier. I think women were not necessarily
the backbone, but they certainly probably
contributed far more of the sustaining power, meaning they were there to
provide the food, they were there to kind of be the extra protector.
They might not have been actually demonstrating, but you found as many
women around that drugstore, around the theater, just to be eyewitnesses
if something happened to their kids, or to their neighbor's kids. They
were the ones who not only provided the food, the transportation, went
to the rallies. Men did that too, but men weren't as present or ever
attentive to some of those details as . . . The movement didn't change
anything in society, similarly, like anything else that's going on in
the South, women tend to details, men don't. That's the nature of the
difference, and so it was there, too. There were men who stand out in my
mind in warren County in encouraging . . . I think if
not for those men, the women probably wouldn't have been as free to do
it. They were older men by and large. They were, I guess, the same
people who dictate in various churches. My church was outside of that
community, but I would suspect they were the same people who were the
deacons or stewards or things like that. You had older men and probably
all age women, but the older men stand up in my mind very vividly. There
was an individual woman who stood out in my mind, just as the epitome of
a classic woman who was black. She was in the insurance business and I
don't think that had anything to do with me selecting that, since my
father was. She had taught school and had left it to go into business,
and she stood out as doing something quite different from what women
were doing. They either were housewives, or they worked for someone, or
they were teaching school, or they were a secretary. Ransom, I think her
name was. And I think she was the first person that I knew of that ran
for local government that was black. She didn't win, but just stood in
my mind as being her own person, as being very independent. She wasn't
very well off. Her husband, I think, had been a cabinet maker and he
came from a long line of cabinet makers, so there was some distinction
about that. In fact, I think there's some architectural significance to
the Ransom cabinets, because I think . . . But she just exuded
independence, and being her own person.

I'm interested as you describe this period of the early and middle
sixties in Warren County, if there are any particular events related to
civil rights that stand out in your mind. In some of
the larger communities, people might mention the time when Martin Luther
King came and spoke in Raleigh or there's certain dates that are
established as important. Is there any particular event or time that
stands out in your mind as important for Warren County?

EVA CLAYTON:

Hmm. I think there are several, and I just think people go, as
communities go, through stages. I think the period of time, I can't
think of the years or the year, when there was so much unrest in the
streets, when the young people were protesting. And the powers that be
attempted to undermine the protest by trying to deputize the black men
who were around who were young. I thought that stood out as being a
desperate act, but also it stood out in mind as perhaps the peak of the
pressure by the young people. That they were so unable to control the
crowd that they had to resort to trying to use blacks to arrest their
own children. In fact, my husband was one they approached, and there was
a [UNCLEAR] he was charged with failure to respond to the
deputy's call, or something. Anyhow, it was dealt with in the courts
like it should have been, and it was an attempt to frustrate and to
demean. That stood out. The other one, I
remember——not Martin coming to Warren
County——but I ran in 1968, and during 1968, in
May, if you'll recall, in 1968 we also had a black candidate for
governor, his name was Reginald Hawkins. He had scheduled a big rally in
eastern North Carolina and anyone in that particular area was also
invited and I had promised to join him and Martin Luther King in Wilson.
I was the only person in eastern North Carolina at that time running for
Congress, but the real motivation was to have the
person running for governor come to eastern North Carolina. Martin had
promised to come and to be the speaker, and so that was [UNCLEAR]. The impact of that on Warren County I think was
significant. I think, indeed, it caused people to recognize how serious
the issues were. There are other areas in Warren County, I guess for the
purpose of your research, you're focusing on the demonstrations more
than you are.

Except for more that I'm interested in what the dynamic was related to
civil rights in each community. It might have varied widely. So,
actually I'd be curious now about this 1968 period, because that, if I'm
right, launched your interest, at least formally, in electoral
politics.

EVA CLAYTON:

Yeah, well, my being in congress, is a result of my activism in voting
registration. I had four, maybe three or four years, prior to that,
[when] my husband and I had helped voter registration workshops
throughout the county. And my husband had run.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

Oh, I wasn't aware of that. When did he run?

EVA CLAYTON:

He ran for the state house in 1964, probably '65, because you don't run
even years. So it was probably '65 and '67, or either '63 and '65, but
he had run twice. In fact the first time he ran he was able to call for
a runoff. He wasn't a leading candidate, but out of that effort and that
participation, I was encouraged to run for Congress. Now I didn't expect
to win, but I obviously you run to win. In fact I did considerably
better than I ever thought I would have, and probably if I knew all that
I know now I probably wouldn't have run.
[Laughter] I was really interested in
voter registration and they really needed someone, a candidate, to focus
that, to get people excited, why wouldn't you take the next step, if
you're really committed to voter registration? I learned an awful lot in
that process. I think I learned how important symbols were to people.
Voter registration in Warren County increased by 25 percent. Voter
registration in the second district increased by some 12 percent. It was
the highest significant registration increase they've ever had in either
the county or the district, even since then. But that still wasn't
sufficient enough to get blacks at a local level, or blacks
substantially at a regional level. I wasn't alone in running. I
indicated there was Reginald Hawkins running for governor, there were
persons running for county commissioners in our county and other
surrounding counties, [also] school boards. So there was an emerging
recognition that political participation was the way if you're going to
have equality, that you had to have people in positions to make the
decision. Now some of that was successful, some of it wasn't, but I
think there was a commitment by the leadership and people did take the
risk——yes, I'll be a candidate. Even when you knew
there was a possibility that you wouldn't be. I think that was there.

There was, in places like Warren County prior to my running and prior to
my coming to the county, just a great outward migration for very good
reasons. There's a book called Chickenbone Special. It
was about the trek from the south to the North for people to find jobs
and a better way of life. The event of our running,
or other people running, the community found just an outpouring of
people expressing hope that one day their communities would be the kind
of community where they could come back home. Now, all that hasn't
materialized, but the sense of pride that something happened somewhere.
So I think, those were some of the expectations and the feelings that
were going on during that time. After the 1968 involvement, I indicated
earlier that I had to learn a lot and I had gotten involved. My
involvement, my desire to want to be a missionary, is continued not in
terms of being a missionary, but my involvement in church. I received
substantial support both from several interdenominational [groups], as
well as some foundations. Groups said they'd help in voter registration.
There were sources out there available, there was a need, and we
organized something called Eastern North Carolina Development
Corporation, I think it's called, EDC, yeah, EDC, Economic Development
Corporation, Eastern North Carolina Development Corporation. Out of that
we established day cares throughout eastern North Carolina, and some of
those day cares are still there. In fact, there's an Eastern North
Carolina Day Care Association headed by Alice Ballance and one done in
Bertie County and Ahoskie, Battleboro, which grew out of that process,
which foundations had given. That was the social end of that. It was
harder to get a handle on the economics of it, but that's truly where it
is. Politics is the road to improve the economics. That has not happened
in the main, but why participate in politics if you're not trying to
improve the economics and liveability of the people
who are there? Surely there needed to be efforts, and there still need
to be efforts in working with ecomomic development in that area. I think
that's sufficient response to that question.

Actually what you're saying there reminds me of, or several themes that
you've mentioned, tie in with what I know about Soul City, the vision of
economic development in rural areas and then, if I'm right in saying as
the Executive Director of Soul City Foundation, you had more work with
the social planning aspects of it, as opposed to the industrial area,
the building of the city. Is that right?

EVA CLAYTON:

That's correct. However, there was a time when the Soul City Foundation,
because it was a non-profit, could qualify for funds to do some
building. The building that's still there was called the Soul City
Company. The foundation received funds, built that as what they call an
incubator. The notion was that small business would have a place to
begin, to nurture, and to support each other, and then would go out into
the industrial park and establishments. That never materialized, but the
building was built by the Foundation. The company actually built the
city and planned the roads and proposed the houses and those kinds of
things. The Foundation was responsible for health care, was responsible
for the cultural programs in the area, the education, the day care
programs, and the one I indicated, the industrial incubator, but that's
the extent of its involvement.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

By saying that I may have jumped ahead of the story a bit because I think
it was in 1973 that you joined on with Soul City Foundation? Is that the
right year?

EVA CLAYTON:

Yes.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

Okay. What about the period from '68 to '73?

EVA CLAYTON:

From '68 to '71, I was still actively involved in the organization that
was called Eastern North Carolina Economic Development Corporation,
establishing the day care programs and the social programs that we had.
And '71 to '73 I was with the University of North Carolina heading up
their health/manpower program, which was a consortium of schools located
at UNC for the purpose of encouraging minority students to go into
health careers. I served as director of that. Then the Foundation
opportunity came after [unclear] came to
Warren County. In fact, he had come earlier. My husband was involved in
identifying the land and the acquisition of that, so we were aware even
when I went to UNC that that may be an opportunity. The Foundation
opportunity came in 1973, when I joined the Foundation to work with them
for a while.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

And what brought you to that position, what attracted you about working
for Soul City?

EVA CLAYTON:

Oh, there was a lot to attract us to Soul City. Soul City probably is an
idea that is [Laughter] probably still too
young, and it's ahead of its time, but it's still an idea that's
worthwhile. Oh, it was visionary, it was bold, it had the concept,
though not the financial backing as it turned out, to be a stimulus to
turn around that kind of a rural area. What you were going to do, you
were going to bring to bear, in a rural area, urban types of
interactions, economic opportunities, and you were going to put in place
facilities for persons to be recruited anywhere.
You were going to have houses, you were going to have the shops, you
were going to possibly have the schools. Soul City was proposed as a new
town development that would be located in a rural area. So it first had
to carve out what would be those local government structures that it
would have. It never became a city, or a town, but the local government
structure it proposed was to be a——can't think of
the name of it. But it's a limited purpose government, and a limited
purpose government allow you to build streets, to do the sewage and do
the water. In the meantime, they would work through the county. Well,
the dynamics of working at that time, through the county commissions was
controlled by, most, well, all men, no doubt about that, because I'm the
first woman ever to be there. And all white, and usually older men, who
were in the traditional power structure. [They] felt threatened by this,
felt that here's this new [UNCLEAR] going to spend all
this money. they resented the fact that they [Soul City planners] were
able to get monies for water and sewage and roads in many instances,
when they weren't able, or hadn't tried or whatever. And secondly,
didn't believe that blacks could plan anything. But amazingly the
community did indeed. The idea was bold enough to attract both white and
black, was bold enough to attract extremely talented people. In fact it
attracted me, you know, I had no doubt about that. If I look now at the
people who went to Soul City, one is now the dean of Mehary Medical
School, one was the Assistant Secretary of Commerce here, the person who
first came to do the health went back to Cook Hospital, which is the
largest hospital in the country. So the
boldness of bringing health services, bringing economic development, was
an idea that was very exciting to a lot of people. The foundations were
interested, the University of North Carolina received [Laughter] probably more than the Soul City
Foundation did, a lot of foundation money to do all kinds of studies on
that. At least three research people who have talked about Soul City,
there are books now.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

Yes. [Laughter]

EVA CLAYTON:

So the idea's without its equal in a community that was that depressed.
However, that experience did teach me a couple things. As bold as the
idea is, and as imaginative as you can think you would have in
motivating and inspiring, you also need to have a politics and the
money. And if you have the politics, I think you can get the money. I
don't mean politics in the sense of black politics, but politics in the
sense of whoever's in power willing to take that risk. And that was not
there consistently, you know, when the pressure got too hot or . . .

[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]

[TAPE 1, SIDE B]

[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]

EVA CLAYTON:

. . . saying that the pressure came and there was not the consistent
political support. The pressure came in the form of an audit, a GAO
[General Accounting Office] audit that was intense and thorough and
humiliating, and all kinds of accusations with that. Didn't find one
unallowable cost. They found some areas where they said there could have
been [better] management. What Soul City was doing, and the complexity
of what it was doing——it was an excellent audit in
terms of that. But because it didn't have the consistent political
support at the national level and at the local level, the first
opportunity to pull the support financially. And that was so tenuous, it
was so tenuous on good will and public acceptance. Of course, all
business in the long run is related to markets, no question about that,
but you need to have a support sufficient enough to try an idea. If it's
a new idea, why do you think you're going to be able to implement it
overnight? Soul City didn't have the time, it didn't have the consistent
political support. It didn't suffer from ideas, it didn't suffer from
leadership, it didn't suffer for a need, and, in my judgment, the
project is still an economic advantage to our country and it will become
even a greater economic advantage to our country.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

By that you mean what has remained behind, even though the city never was
built on that land?

EVA CLAYTON:

Right. Although the city itself was never there. You have the
infrastructure there that's going to be supportive to businesses in the
future. You have the infrastructure there that has
caused economic development to happen in the whole region. Soul City
organized the first regional water system in this state, it's the
largest one now. And so Oxford has benefitted, Henderson's benefitted,
and Warren County's benefitted, far more than Soul City itself
benefitted. In fact, that was the compromise. Soul City came up with the
idea of tapping the lake with the water. No one else had thought of
that. The embarrassment of that. And what you have to do with the
politics of that. It started off with, what makes sense, to bring
infrastructure here, rather than create the wealth. So that turned out
to be a very positive thing and it continuously has been and will
continue to be economic development for the region. Now for our
particular community of Warren County, the industrial development that's
there——we have Owens Illinois, Nikrecho, I can
never think of its new name, it was so quiet last year, its name is
Nikrecho, I think. Owens Illinois moved there knowing it had water, it
had streets, it was an industrial base. There is evidence it is now
serving as an economic incentive to our county.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

I'm thinking too in some ways we've gone a little bit ahead of the story
here, too, in the sense that,

EVA CLAYTON:

It's hard for me to live in the past. I wouldn't be doing all the things
I'm doing if I had such vivid memories of the past.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

That's why I'm the one with the timeline in front of me. [Laughter] I'm thinking that you left while
it was still very much a going concern. Is that right? In terms of your
primary focus, you left for state government in
'75, so all of this in terms of the audit was in the late '70s. If Soul
City was still very much a going concern when you left, what was it that
pulled you away into state government?

EVA CLAYTON:

It was an opportunity to do something different and I am one open to new
opportunities. And I grow by a variety of things and I think that's what
makes Eva Clayton unique. And the opportunity was for me to be in the
cabinet, or sub-cabinet, of Jim Hunt, and I was offered that opportunity
and they asked if I would consider it and I said, yes, and I did.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

And an interest in working with Howard Lee, I take it was part of it,
too?

EVA CLAYTON:

Oh, sure, sure. And he was the one that made the offer. Yes, yes. That
was a particular delight. Howard Lee in 1972 ran for Congress, and again
in 1974. And in 1976 he ran for Lieutenant Governor. And both in '74 and
in '76, I worked with his campaign. I also worked in '76 with Jim Hunt's
campaign. My husband was the county-wide co-chair during that. So those
relationships meant that at least my name was there and some opportunity
for a contribution in the providing of services to the state of North
Carolina. I thought that as a challenge, you know. I'm pleased that I
did it.

It seems that when I think of what was going on in the Department at this
point, a lot of it was, at least from reading the newspapers, very
controversial things. The funding of CETA [Comprehensive Education and
Training Act] and where the money went and that sort of thing, all of
which is documented to the hilt in the newspapers.
But I'm wondering if you would, perhaps more looking back on it than on
day-to-day parts of it, describe what were important issues in that time
for you in terms of what the Department was trying to do, what it
accomplished, what it was up against, those sorts of things.

EVA CLAYTON:

It accomplished a lot, but in fact what's controversial is amazing. You
do get caught up in the day-to-day, being written about or wondering,
gee whiz, what's under the dome today, or what's in the editorial pages
today. And CETA was certainly the, I don't know if it was a watershed,
but it certainly was the whipping boy. And you know, and I do have some
introspection about all of that. I don't know why I should be surprised,
but I was. It just didn't work, to make victims of poor folks and black
folks. Howard Lee is the Secretary of Natural Resources. What does it
have? It has community economic development, and I'm guessing this now,
but I roughly would say, at least 50-60 million dollars. You had the
Office of Economic Opportunity, or OEO; you had community assistance;
and you had housing finance in that area. Those four were under
community development, and I served as community development. All the
things I love to do, all the things I wanted to do, and was consistent
with my missionary zeal. Who are you helping? Where does that money go
to? Who are the recipients? Okay. Big money in CETA, big money in CETA,
big money in CETA. Money coming down so fast and many times you have to
send money back. You're knowing people in natural resources, including
land resources, environmental management, and I think maybe recreation. You didn't hear anything about those programs.
Parks were going to pot just like anything else, I mean, look at the
parks now. Nothing, it's almost like they were silent partners. But
community development, you heard a lot about. CETA, so you heard more
about that than about housing finance, and community assistance, they
were of planners, you didn't hear too much about them. But CETA and OEO,
yeah, there was a lot. A lot of press, but by and large that press was
about two or three events. And the press is selling papers, I mean, I
have journalists who work for me now, you know my niece is a journalist.
They are taught to get a story. Success doesn't sell any papers. They
won't admit that they try to find the negative, but it's far more
exciting to talk about community development under CETA when you have
the possibility of the union head having a contract. Probably was
nothing wrong with that in the first place, I mean, it was a non-profit
organization. What was wrong [was] it wasn't managed well. It wasn't any
impropriety on who got it, but it made for good reading, you know. My
reflection on that, yes, there was a lot of controversy on that, but gee
whiz, do I regret having been in the midst of that controversy? Not one
bit. I love saying I looked you in the eye and didn't blink. David Stick
is one who has chronicled a lot of stuff about Eva Clayton, and I don't
mind David Stick because we know exactly where we stand. He wants to
write a story and I want to get the facts right. I don't know what his
motives are, but I can tell you he's a very good reporter. He's the one
that did Soul City, and I couldn't help believe that part of my popularity in state government was indeed related to
my being connected to Soul City. I don't think that was the reason I was
chosen, it was just the reason why there was a good press. It makes for
good reading. There was a contract made to the foundation which I had
headed up. Even I allowed myself to think that there was some conflict
in that. Now I know absolutely not there. If people can put money in
blind trusts and still participate in housing and million and million
dollars . . . The foundation for which I worked, for which I have no
control, makes an application for forty-eight thousand dollars and I
must not sign, in fact I did not sign. The problem is that I signed the
amendments, but the contract was signed by somebody else. But I
shouldn't have had to avoid signing in the first place. The things they
put a black female, or first time black male, through in proving their
worthiness, is just completely unacceptable. What do I remember about
that? That's what I remember about that. Not about the controversy. In
some ways, I'm not so dumbfounded by the fact that the press would do
that, as I am dumbfounded by my not recognizing that it would do that.
[Laughter] I mean, what else is new? I
guess if I had not been dumbfounded, I would have been so cynical in
that process. You know, you would still think, gee whiz, there should be
a fair chance for people to do that.

But, what were our successes? We got money out to a variety of
communities. We made small grants for water and sewage they would never
have had. There are towns that are involved right now that have parks
and all. Through CETA funds the state and the local
units governments got far more of the CETA than anyone else. I don't
want to say they supplant it, but they certainly undergird their
employment assistance by funds that the federal government had that they
didn't have. I think the program needed changing, and I think the
program is better than it was then. That was a good experience for me,
it was really a good experience, both career-wise as well as human
relations-wise.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

It was in 1981 that you resigned, about the end of the year, late
November. What were your reasons for leaving the departent?

EVA CLAYTON:

A couple reasons. One is that I didn't think I wanted to do another four
years. And the reason I had come to that
conclusion——I knew I made a contribution, I had no
problems with that, and I must say, both Howard and the governor allowed
me to make that contribution. But there were levels of frustration that
were unacceptable for me, not necessarily by any one person, just by the
nature of the beast, you know. And I guess I've always thought I was
arrogant enough, and rich enough, I didn't have to take certain [UNCLEAR]. And, I thought I made a contribution, and four
years is a good time and sometimes you can overstay. And I had an urge
to go into business. I gather if it was easier I might have stayed full
term, but I think in hindsight that was a blessing for me to have left
that early, just get on about the business of doing . . . I had an
interesting story related to me by a person who had to work in the mills
during the summer through college, no, the person had to work in tobacco
before they went to college, and then while they were in college had
to work in the mills. And each of those things
were so hideous and unacceptable, that reaffirmed in their mind why they
had to finish college. So sometimes, when things are not as acceptable
to you, it's a blessing. I'm a great believer in the provential guidance
of God, and you know, sometimes those things come to test you. Hey, this
is a good time to get on about what you're about, anyhow. So it was an
opportunity to just move on. It wasn't any direct relationship to any
one person. It was just I did not feel that Eva
Clayton had to go through any enormous amount of headaches to say,
"I made my first, I made first." That's no longer
important to me, to be the first. It's factual, I was the first black
female that ever was Assistant Secretary in a department of North
Carolina. But, to have that distinction, to make a contribution under
certain conditions that were unacceptable to me as a person, I'm a
person before I'm an official. I live with my own dignity, so it was an
opportunity to keep all of that in contact, and still make a
contribution.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

And then your next step was right here, to Technical Resources
International. And what you've said affirms something that I'd guessed,
which is that this has been probably been brewing at least as an idea
for some time, [that is] to go about what you wanted to do in a private
organization where you could direct and control it.

EVA CLAYTON:

It's no different, however, from what I did in the foundations or . . .
It's all about empowering people and providing opportunities.

From your resume, to me that's quite clear, because in each of the things
that you've listed the descriptions end up sounding quite similar in
terms of the kinds of projects that you've worked on and what your goals
are. So then my question is, did you feel that in a private organization
which you controlled, you would be able to direct these things a lot
more? You would not have the outside forces that come at you in state
government or electoral politics, you would have control over what you
wanted to do?

EVA CLAYTON:

It certainly was. Not that it always resulted in that, but the motivation
was that you have the independence that you don't have in the others.
Also I was interested in going in business for the economics of going
into business. I was interested in making money. I was interested in
demonstrating that economic development could mean that you could
demonstrate how you have a business and you hire other people. It's the
self-determination. And I think that's symbolic. I think what you do as
a person is symbolic of what your community will do, or individuals will
do, and I've been honored by a number of persons sharing with me that I
have been their model. My striking out has caused other women to do the
same thing, or even other men, other small businesspeople, to do that. I
haven't made a lot of money, oftentimes I have more debt than I have
income. It's not a nonprofit, I can't write it off. But more times than
not I have fun, more times than not. I wouldn't be coming from Warrenton
all the way to Raleigh, or going all over eastern North Carolina doing
what I do if I didn't enjoy it. I'm going to change
it, though, I'm going to try to work a little smarter, not as hard. I
read this book, Passages, you know you go through
these passages in your life. I'm not in my less mobile passage, but I am
in my more thoughtful passage where you maximize your time and you spend
somewhat less energies working on that.

It's been eight years now, here, is that right? What are the major
projects that you've worked on, during these eight years?

EVA CLAYTON:

Hmmm. The ones that probably have been most esteemed financially have
been writing applications for local government that would enable them to
do community development. I've had larger numbers of those, and in some
ways, that has provided them the funds to do the streets, the water, and
the housing. The other major type, that's been small businesses, a
couple stand in my mind. One, a factory down in Windsor [UNCLEAR], which employs forty-five people. They own that
factory, and for me to be involved in getting money to expand that.
Another was an acquisition of a business up here near the airport which
started off maybe about ninety thousand dollars. They had a sale amount
of four million last year. Another research area type, I've worked with
a number of banks in doing credit need studies. What motivates them to
use us in the first place is the CRA, the Credit Community Reinvestment
Act, which says that local communities should benefit from banks being
in their communities. Are you investing in that community? They engaged
us to do credit needs studies particularly around lower-income, because
we've been very active in community development and in the [UNCLEAR] area. That has been of
particular interest to me. We've done a lot of that. We've done studies
looking at the roles of minority credit unions in rural eastern North
Carolina, or doing economic development. More recently we've looked at
the effect of Richmond vs. Kroson, the effect of Kroson on affirmative
action in the programs in municipalities throughout North Carolina. We
just finished that. Those are some of the things we've been involved in.
More of our clients are small units of governments, who couldn't afford
a planner, or they would be banks who need to have a legitimate entity
doing their credit need studies rather than themselves (because they're
certainly capable of doing their credit needs), or they've been hiring
people other than a research firm such as ours. So we do social research
and some special issues in those areas. Those have been the kinds of
things we're working on.

KATHRYN NASSTROM:

With these eight years under your belt doing this, would you comment on
the relative success of doing what you want to do through a private
organization versus a large state agency.

EVA CLAYTON:

It's in a different arena. I think I have far more legitimacy among
certain people now than I might have had before. The participation at
the state level gave me far more visibility. I'm not as confident
everyone feels that people that get appointed to head up the, have all
the experiences of [UNCLEAR]. But I really enjoyed having
had the opportunity to make that public contribution to the state
agency. I wouldn't take anything from it. The sense I have here, I feel
I'm in control. And I'm in a small arena. I'm not statewide and my
clients are maybe ten or twelve communities and
governments, over a two-year period. And we may have five banks that are
our clients over another two-year period. So we're dealing with smaller
people, but the people we are dealing with, the entities we are dealing
with, we feel we are freer to make that personal contribution without
the constraint of the political implications of who we help. Now all
things have constraints, you know, so we all have to work with
constraints. But having had both of them, I wouldn't trade one for the
other, but I'm glad where I am. I'm at the right place in my life. I
wouldn't say I wouldn't go back to public life, but I think I'm at the
right place.

We've got a little bit of time left, so I'd like you to comment on your
continued work in electoral politics, in this case through serving on
the County Commissioners Board in Warren County, because it seems that
almost exactly as you were coming to do the work here, you were also
establishing yourself in that area of politics.

EVA CLAYTON:

Serving Warren County commissioners has been a particularly unique
experience. Warren County is a rural county. It has many problems and
limited resources. And Eva Clayton has served as chairperson for that,
this is six going into seven years. We have made a tremendous impact on
that community. However, being a Eva Clayton or having a majority black
on the board, does not change the reality that Warren County still has
tremendous problems. Local units of governments are facing just
tremendous amount of demands, with increasingly less resources to come
from the federal government, so they're going to
have to overburden what is already a limited base to build
jails——we're building a jail, we're renovating our
courthouse, we're building a new middle school. We had the largest bond
referendum ever in our county, ever in the history of our county,
because we had so many needs, and the citizens supported it. But we
still have to struggle, to try to find how do we increase that base. I
think minorities serving at the local level is there, there's
opportunity there. I have had that opportunity and I think have made a
contribution in that. So I'm pleased about that. Where I go from here, I
think that's an open question. I haven't yet decided whether I'm going
to run again. I think eight years may be enough, but I would encourage
other people to serve at the local level. I think it's an area where you
need talented people. Now I don't say that as arrogant as it sounds, but
I did bring a certain level of expertise. I've worked in local
government, I was a chief planner for the state as the community
development assistant, so planning's what I do here. So I'm constantly
reading regulations and those kind of things. But there is not enough
persons willing to serve on local unit government who have the talent.
In fact, in my judgment I'm not personally willing to serve in public
positions who have the talent anyhow [UNCLEAR]. It's
almost as if the talented people say, hey, I don't have to take that
abuse, you know, I don't want to get involved. So what happens when that
attitude prevails is you are governed by less skillful, less experienced
persons when the skillful and experienced people are too busy doing
their thing, and walk away. It's uncompensated service. Warren County doesn't have the resources to compensate
anyone, so you don't go there thinking you're gong to supplement your
income, you're really going to lose income, because you're going to have
to give so much of your time. But it's an area that needs to be done,
and I think it's an area that gives tremendous rewards, because you can
see it, you can see it. When that school is built I will see it, when
that courthouse is, I will see it. Also, when they don't pick up the
trash, I'll see that, and plus everyone knows my telephone number. You
get the complaints immediately, but you also get the benefits, I
think.