I'm not sure I understand all the fuss about Ispatir and Tobh hina? They are papal hymns and part of a collection of many. It is not as if they say no papal hymns whatssoever in the Cathedral and it is not practical to say them all! Remember they are papal hymns and not standard festal hymns.

That's exactly what I mean drewhalim.. they should be said every time the pope is there, or a bishop for that matter. But tradition went alongwith the impracticality of saying them at any other time because of time pressures.. oh yes time pressures on God and prayers.. oh yes yes I know people could pray any other time.. but during major feasts they used to be always be said as A the liturgy is broadcast all over the world so it's used as educational, and sends a message of how we stick to the rituals including long hymns, and B because there's no time pressures.. well, supposedly..

Festal Pauline is different and I agree should be said as you wouldn't say the annual tune on Thursday of the Pascha, so why it is ok during festal times I don't know. However the Coptic church has a huge collection of Papal hymns, probably more than any other church, and I don't agree that they all need to be said all the time.

Yeah, but about half the joyous Pauline is the annual tune. And there are quite a lot of books that say Thursday Pascha doxologies are annual (among other hymns). Aren't we splitting hairs here? Yes there is a problem with "alhan intolerance" that is growing but there is also wisdom to pick our fights. This doesn't mean we succumb to pressure. It means we can dynamically find ways to satisfy a lot of people instead of satisfying one group at the expense of another. We can say festive hymns, even long ones but if we don't say all the festal hymns, especially since festive hymns bear a very close resemblance to annual hymns, we shouldn't feel the need to start a war over it.

What is with all these changes towards Thursday hymns being festive. That days rite has always been annual due to the fact that it is in the middle of Holy Week. I can understand and agree with the logic. Khidmit shamas books mostly say that. HICS recording say that. only recently people starting changing that to festive.

Well Thursday of the Pascha is technically a minor Lord's feast. Since all of the other Lord's feasts are in festive or Palm Sunday tune, it makes sense to make Maundy Thursday too. But apparently, there must be more pressing reasons to keep it annual. Regardless, it is not worth starting a war over it.

Thursday is a Minor feast. But it's not a stand-alone. We have spoke to Anba Beniameen of El-Monofia a while ago about this and he clarified that there must always be a transition point from the sorrowful rite (one extent) to the festive tune (another extent). That's why when many started arguing about the General funeral, the resolution was to make it annual, the middle ground between festive (Palm Sunday) and sorrowful tune (holy week beginning with Pascha hours).

Before I go do research on Great Thursday, I want to ask something for clarification. Those who are calling for a melody change from the annual to festive, are they basically talking about the Doxologies and gospel responses? What are the exact elements that would change?

Not sure if this the historical approach is appropriate here, but we might be surprised to learn that many of the contested elements are very recent (and inconsistent) additions to the rite anyway. Although generally, the rite of holy week was standardized and reformed during the patriarchate of Gabriel ibn Turaik (12th cent?) this may not be true down to every detail, esp with the odd day (ritually speaking) that is Great Thursday, which underwent many developments over time.

@RamezM The major change that the psalm of liturgy was changed to be fully singary rather than 2 parts singary and 2 annual as Nahdet elkanayes says. I myself haven't paid much attention to it because in church we didn't really stray from the Nahdet elkanayes book.

I believe arguments towards changing the prayers to festive came to be around the same time HH Shenouda spoke about the General Funeral.

Just to point out that Nahdet el Kanayes does not not say the psalm should be half festal and and half annual. It actually says you chant it in the festal singary tune and conclude annually i e. The Alleluia as there is no response. There is a video on YouTube of Muallim Zaher Andrawes doing this. I personally have not heard about any "movement" for Thursday to be festal and I think it would give a very mixed message of Pascha week being that close to the Resurrection. Other Orthodox churches do not even pray a full liturgy and use presanctified gifts but that's another story.