Friday, 11 July 2014

Nutritional Ketosis: What is it good for?

I have a video in mind...

Having previously shown you what I look like on a diet of ~125g/day low-GL carbohydrates, here are a couple of recent pictures of Jimmy Moore, who's on a very-low-carb, very-high-fat diet (~85%E from fats), a.k.a. Nutritional Ketosis. It involves adding Kerrygold butter to just about everything, even eating sticks of it from a block. I'm not kidding.

The only recent footage of Fredrick Hahn, is the following video from the Low Carb Cruise...

To my eyes, Nutritional Ketosis is good for absolutely nothing. Dietary fat can be stored as body fat, in the absence of dietary carbohydrates. Gary Taubes' claim "You can basically exercise as much gluttony as you want, as long as you're eating (only) fat and protein." is pure fantasy, not supported by evidence.

The low protein intake in Nutritional Ketosis, combined with the high serum cortisol that's almost inevitable on this way of eating, results in a loss of muscle mass. I give Nutritional Ketosis a thumbs-down.

I can safely state that Fredrick Hahn is a liar (I am not poking fun at anybody and I have only blocked him (not his followers) from posting here, for a flagrant breach of my Moderation Policy on his first attempt at commenting), and intellectually-dishonest (for repeatedly mis-quoting me, and using other logical fallacies). He posted the above post knowing that, as I had blocked him on Facebook, I wouldn't see it. I only learned of its existence after a friend PM'ed me on Facebook Messenger. He instructed his "followers" to leave comments here and then accuse me of lying about white-listing, back on his page, because their comments didn't appear immediately. He's a real piece of work! From ABOUT ME:-

Moderation Policy:Comments from first-time & untrusted commenters are moderated ← (click for details). Please be patient. Now that I have a Smart Phone, I can publish your comments during the day when I'm away from my lap-top, but I prefer to type replies on my lap-top. Comments from anonymous commenters, containing links in any form, are deleted.

This is a function of Disqus, as it's impossible to retrospectively white-list a commenter who's never commented here before. There appears to be a severe lack of cognitive function in these people. I really can't think why that is ;-)

Why am I being so hard on Jimmy Moore and Fredrick Hahn? I don't know these people personally.

1) These people are making money out of peddling pseudoscience.

2) These people meet all the criteria in Guest post: Science versus Pseudoscience and have created an alternative science, where sky-high LDL cholesterol, sky-high LDL-P and sky-high postprandial TG's are not risk factors for CHD, but are either harmless or beneficial.

Taubes [reportedly] claimed: "You can basically exercise as much gluttony as you want, as long as you're eating (only) fat and protein."Nige said: "Dietary fat can be stored as body fat, in the absence of dietary carbohydrates."

The above recalled to me a claim made by Dr. Bernstein (back in 2005) that did not sound quite right: "The reason that a low-carb diet can help you to become or remain slim is tightly linked to the hormone insulin, which is the principal fat-building hormone. The process works like this: The lower the amount of fast acting or concentrated carbohydrate you eat, the less significant is the increase of your blood sugar. The less significant the effect on your blood sugar, the less of the fat-building hormone insulin you will need...to stabilize blood sugar. With less insulin at large in your bloodstream, fats you eat will not be stored but metabolized (you will literally pee them away as water or breathe them away as carbon dioxide)." [Bernstein. The Diabetes Diet. (2005) p.20-21] [emphasis mine]

Breathing away &/or peeing away those sticks of Kerrygold?Doesn't appear to be working as claimed...

See http://nigeepoo.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/how-low-carbohydrate-diets-are.html Last study is about ketone excretion. Maximum ketone excretion rate is ~1g/day :-(

I believed that Taubes was wrong back in Jan 2010, when I wrote http://nigeepoo.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/i-have-theory.html I was very nervous about publishing that! Luckily for me, Evelyn soon took over as the main Taubes basher.

Super Slow is a form of resistance training popularized by Ken Hutchins. The term SuperSlow and derivative terms are registered by Hutchins as trademarks. (To avoid confusion, and avoid legal battles with former business associates, Hutchins has renamed his methods "RenEx" and "Renaissance Exercise".) Super Slow involves the combination of very slow speeds of lifting and lowering the weight, along with the general principles of the High intensity training approach advocated by Arthur Jones.

Nigel, I thought the only reason that people put on weight is because of excess calories and the only way to lose weight is to be in a calorie deficit, so why does the macro-nutrient compoisition of Jimmy's diet matter?

Nigel, why is it that you are only interested in hearing from people who agree with your point of view. A discussion means getting multiple peoples opinions and then deciding for yourself which one is right. I accept your point of view but I also believe Ketosis can work for many people and as far as I am concerned if somebody is feeling healthier and their markers are getting better then it can't be that bad. Please stop white-listing people with differing opinions otherwise you are going to have a one sided discussion, which is not helpful to anybody...

All can tell you is that when I dropped the grains and the refined carbs and increased high quality fats in my diet my weight dropped. My desire was health not weight loss, I ended up achieving both (health and weight loss).

You're talking to yourself! These people came here for one purpose only, which was to leave a comment and when that comment was not instantaneously approved, go back to https://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn/posts/10152227780827864 to bitch and moan and accuse me of lying about white-listing, 'cos they thought that white-listing worked retrospectively ('cos they're a bunch of idiots who can't read simple instructions!).

I've invited them back here to discuss stuff, but they're not interested in having any kind of meaningful exchange of views.

Nige said: "To my eyes, nutritional ketosis is good for absolutely nothing."Question: What about the observations [described in the papers below] that the principal ketone (ß-OHB) has shown promise in being of benefit in a number of neurologic disorders [e.g., Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease?] [George Cahill]: " a chemical agent, ß-OHB, that has played such a major role in man's survival may be expected to have actions other than simply calories. When nature has such a beneficial substance, it may become pleiotropic through evolution with other survival advantages. Insulin and thyroid hormones are excellent hormonal examples..." Don't the potential benefits of ß-OHB for neurologic disorders deserve a valuation of ketogenic levels of carb restriction as something above "good for absolutely nothing?

I don't have a problem with MK. In fact, I blogged about its use for my mum's Lewy Body Dementia, citing http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19687389 as a means to increase ketosis with a lower F:P ratio, thus making the MK diet more tolerable.

Jimmy Moore still uses that old photo of when he was the slimmest. That is deceitful. Maybe without ketosis he would have gone back to his highest weight, who knows. He obviously needs to decrease calories and do some weight lifting.

Hello. I guess you could get a third party to moderate some sort of debate between you and him. Then neither side can have control of the conversation, and you can feel free to point out any logical inconsistencies after you have a chance to review everything that was said during the debate.

I'm talking about the benefit of ß-OHB with respect to avoiding/preventing Alzheimer's or Parkinson's disease in the first place--not just as a therapeutic treatment applicable to already established cases:

Not to imply that these neurologic disorders are caused by a lack of ketones [!], but "protection against" suggests the potential to help avoid/prevent the DEVELOPMENT of Alzheimer's or Parkinson's.

As you know, nutritional ketosis doesn't require an intake of 80%E from fat: "...strictly speaking, any diet with less than 100g/day of carbohydrate will cause ketosis to develop to some degree (more ketones will be generated as carbs are lowered." [Lyle McDonald]An Atkin's "maintenance" level of carb restriction (say, 90g/day carbs) could therefore provide a fairly palatable and tolerable diet thatwould permit at least a modest degree of these beneficial substances.

That is: one wouldn't need to eat a stick of Kerrygold washed down with a pint of heavy cream at each meal.

I'm not myself currently playing with a ketogenic diet, but because this "superfuel" (as Cahill called ß-OHB) apparently provides protection from the toxins that would otherwise lead to these neurologic disorders, nutritional ketosis doesn't look to me like a case of "good for absolutely nothing."

Are you considering spending the rest of your life in ketosis, in the hope that your brain will be protected from degenerative diseases?

What are these "toxins associated with Alzheimer's or Parkinson's"?

Blue Zone populations seem to be relatively free from degenerative brain diseases. Maybe the secret is keeping serum insulin low (which can be achieved on a diet of 70%E from natural carbohydrates).

While ketones enhance mental faculties in people who have degenerative brain diseases, they don't seem to enhance the mental faculties of the VLCVHF dieters that I am engaging in debate. The opposite seems to be the case.

a. Life-long ketosis? Yes, doing so may turn out to be a case of shooting yourself in the foot. Peter D seems to humming along nicely, but there is a lot of weight in the case for regarding this metabolic state as the body's Plan B ("use in emergency situations only").

c. the mental faculties of those who see battle in the arena of diet & heath vary greatly and rather independently of where they stand [eat the butterNOT the bread! eat the bread NOT the butter! Don't eat EITHER ever!]

d. Here's that bit regarding the "toxins associated with Alzheimer's & Parkinson's: [apologies for the length]

(summary; Abstract:)The heroin analogue 1-methyl-4-phenylpyridinium, MPP+, both in vitro and in vivo, produces death of dopaminergic substantia nigral cells by inhibiting the mitochondrial NADH dehydrogenase mul- tienzyme complex, producing a syndrome indistinguishable from Parkinson’s disease. Similarly, a fragment of amyloid protein, Aß1–42, is lethal to hippocampal cells, producing recent memory deficits characteristic of Alzheimer’s disease. Here we show that addition of 4 mM D-ß-hydroxybutyrate protected cultured mesencephalic neurons from MPP+ toxicity and hippocampal neurons from Aß1–42 toxicity. Our previous work in heart showed that ketone bodies, normal metabolites, can correct defects in mitochondrial energy generation. The ability of ketone bodies to protect neurons in culture suggests that defects in mitochondrial energy generation contribute to the pathophysiology of both brain diseases. These findings further suggest that ketone bodies may play a therapeutic role in these most common forms of human neurodegeneration.

Alzheimer’s disease is multifactorial (3), characterized by loss of recent memory, decrease in brain acetyl choline (4), and death of hippocampal neurons. These changes result from the accumulation of a proteolytic (5) fragment of the ß chain of amyloid precursor protein, Aß1–42, (6) both intracellularly (7) and extra- cellularly in pathologically characteristic amyloid plaques...

Parkinson’s disease clinically is characterized by muscle rigidity, tremor of the distal extremities, and bradykinesia and pathologically is characterized by eosinophilic Lewy-body inclusions comprised of the nucleoprotein alpha-synuclein and ubiquitin and by death of substantial nigral dopaminergic neurons (15)...Experimentally, a syndrome indistinguishable from Parkinsonism can be induced by administration of the heroin analogue 1-methyl-4-phenylpyri- dinium, MPP+ (15), which is taken up by the dopamine transporter of dopinergic neurons where it inhibits the activity of the mitochondrial NADH dehydrogenase multienzyme complex.

(from Conclusion:)Another implication of our finding is that elevation of ketones may offer neuroprotection in the treatment or PREVENTION [emphasis mine] of both Alzheimer’s disease, where therapy is lacking, and Parkinson’s disease, where therapy with L-dopa is time limited. The high-fat ketogenic diet used in childhood epilepsy may not be suitable for use in adults because of its atherogenic potential; however, alternative dietary sources of ketones produced biotechnologically (33) may overcome this difficulty and provide benefit without the undesirable side effects of current ketogenic diets.

I don't engage with "odd" people (to put it more nicely) in other areas, so I guess I am a little biased. My mind is boggled by some of the comments made by VLCVHF'ers on Fred Hahn's FB page. Recent commenters in this post are from his "camp". I have no idea what they think they're doing. They leave 1 or 2 comments here, then slag me off on Fred's FB page with no intention of returning here.

The bit that's worrying me about NK is "The high-fat ketogenic diet used in childhood epilepsy may not be suitable for use in adults because of its atherogenic potential;"

While ketones may offer neuroprotection, it doesn't explain the low rates of degenerative brain diseases in populations with high carb %E from tubers, veggies etc.

Hi Nigel, do you have any posts you can point me to about achieving low serum insulin on a 70%E natural carb diet? Were any of the populations studied European? And does it matter if someone has genes that may predispose to diabetes?

Also, what do you think about the mixed diet of basically moderate fat and moderate carb? That seems to be a diet that many people naturally lean towards when given the option, since it's easily achieved just by eating 'real foods' to taste.

I've just been reading some of your Vitamin D and melanoma posts . . interesting stuff!

See http://nigeepoo.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/why-you-really-cant-outrun-your-fork.html

At the bottom are a couple of links. They were Kitavans living on the Trobriand Islands in Papua New Guinea's archipelago.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Europeans who live on a diet of mostly tubers. Asians live on a rice-based diet. However, there is rice and there is rice. Basmati is my favourite, as it's very long-grain and high in amylose, so the GI is low. It also has a nice fragrance & taste. There are Europeans who eat root veggies. I'm thinking borscht. The Irish eat a lot of white potatoes, but there are potatoes and there are potatoes. Cooking and subsequent refrigeration make a big difference to the GI.

The links won't explain how to achieve low insulin. To do that means maximising your insulin sensitivity. See http://nigeepoo.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/insulin-resistance-solutions-to.html

Fredrick Hahn may look "fit" relative to Howard Harkness, but he has posted recent pictures of himself during our "spat", and his physique isn't good when compared to other bodybuilders of his age. As I post on muscletalk.co.uk, I get to see a lot of bodybuilders' bodies! ;-)

When shown a picture of a BB'er with a better physique than him, Fred Hahn always comes up with the same excuses as to why it's invalid - black man, younger man, steroid user. He falsely accuses people of steroid use, when Androgenic Anabolic Steroids are used mostly by people who are trying to win a competition & by youngsters, not by mature, amateur BB'ers.

His posture during the interview was poor, as he was sitting round-shouldered and slouching.

People who think that they have "the solution" to the obesity problem haven't thought things through properly and are somewhat deluded, as the obesity problem has a large number of contributory factors. It's not the carbs (not exactly, anyway)!

I know Fred Hahn very well, and have been friends since our 15 year olds were infants. I have trained with Fred, accepted advice from Fred, and enjoyed vigorous debates and discussions with Fred. We are neighbors and close friends.

Fred is a lot of things, but a "liar" is absolutely the furthest thing from who he is as a person. In fact, Fred is honest to a fault, and anyone who makes any claims to the contrary is someone who should be aggressively ignored. I did not read the entire of the above, but your claims of intellectual dishonesty and the peddling of "pseudo-science" is unfounded and false. There is always disagreement in the scientific community, and to dismiss someone whose views (based on his reading of the available evidence) diverge from "conventional wisdom" should be done at your own risk.

While some of Fred's views on nutrition and exercise may buck prevailing orthodoxy (aka baloney), I can say that he absolutely practices exactly what he preaches, always has a great deal of research and due diligence behind his recommendations, and is certainly the healthiest 50-something man I know. Following his guidance has made me personally healthier and stronger (and somewhat lighter) than I've been at any other time in my life (I'm 42). I will also add that from my experience he has always been willing to adjust his views when new evidence arises, as anyone who is on the cutting edge must be willing to do.

"I know Fred Hahn very well, and have been friends since our 15 year olds were infants. I have trained with Fred, accepted advice from Fred, and enjoyed vigorous debates and discussions with Fred. We are neighbors and close friends."Your comments may be a little biased, in that case.

"Fred is a lot of things, but a "liar" is absolutely the furthest thing from who he is as a person. In fact, Fred is honest to a fault, and anyone who makes any claims to the contrary is someone who should be aggressively ignored."Fred stated in https://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn/posts/10152227780827864"Nigel Kinbrum is a coward. He enjoys poking fun at people, but blocks them from commenting..."That's more than one lie. That's why I called him a liar. Therefore, your statement that he isn't a liar is false. "Aggressively ignoring" sounds like an oxymoron to me.

"I did not read the entire of the above, but your claims of intellectual dishonesty and the peddling of "pseudo-science" is unfounded and false."Why didn't you read the entire of the above. Do you prefer to comment from a position of ignorance? If you read the entirety of the above Facebook thread, you'll see that Fred doesn't back-up his opinions with evidence, unlike me. He resorts to name-calling and other logical fallacies. If you read http://nigeepoo.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/guest-post-science-versus-pseudoscience.html , you'll see that Fred's 80%E fat diet meets all of the criteria for pseudoscience.

"There is always disagreement in the scientific community..."See http://nigeepoo.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/guest-post-denialism-as.html , Item 3. I now have the measure of you, Mr Miller.

"and to dismiss someone whose views (based on his reading of the available evidence) diverge from "conventional wisdom" should be done at your own risk."I have criticised Fred's 80%E fat diet on the grounds that it is atherogenic and have supported that assertion with dozens of peer-reviewed studies, many of them on humans. What is the risk in doing that?

"While some of Fred's views on nutrition and exercise may buck prevailing orthodoxy (aka baloney)..."I definitely have the measure of you, Mr Miller!

"I can say that he absolutely practices exactly what he preaches..."Good.

"always has a great deal of research and due diligence behind his recommendations..."If he does, he keeps it well-hidden.

"and is certainly the healthiest 50-something man I know."Are you his Doctor? Have you seen the insides of Fred's coronary arteries? Ditto his carotid arteries? Did you know that the marathon runner Brian Maxwell dropped dead from a heart attack at the age of 51?

"Following his guidance has made me personally healthier and stronger (and somewhat lighter) than I've been at any other time in my life (I'm 42)."Resistance training tends to do that. You can't claim that you're healthier, though (unless you had a medical condition that's now gone as a result of the training).

"I will also add that from my experience he has always been willing to adjust his views when new evidence arises, as anyone who is on the cutting edge must be willing to do."That's not the impression I got from my debates with him. He's very dogmatic, and rejects all evidence that contradicts his dietary beliefs.

"In short, this post is silly and people should not listen to you."Thank you for your opinion. In short, your comment is riddled with pseudoscientific thinking. I can see why you & Fred are friends.

Unless you are God and are somehow able to stop people from reading my blog, the last part of your sentence is utterly ludicrous. That doesn't surprise me at all. I'm guessing that you are eating a ketogenic diet. That would explain your muddled thought processes.

Oh wow, an online anecdote! Please read Fred's online commentary on various blogs and decide whether he is willing to adjust his views with new evidence presented to him.Fred Hahn is even considered a zealot in paleo circles. That says a lot.

About Me

I have a B.Sc.(Hons) in Electronic Engineering but no qualifications in Diet, Nutrition & Fitness, which is why I back-up what I write with links to high-quality evidence.

You can email me at
nigel.kinbrum@entee'ellworld.com
(say it!).

My suggestions must ALWAYS be checked by your Pharmacist/GP first, in case of contraindications with other medical conditions or medications that I don't know about. My suggestions are adjuncts to, NOT replacements for medication(s).

If symptoms improve, ask your GP about a reduction in medication(s), if it's/they're causing you problems.

Cheers, Nigel Kinbrum B.Sc.(Hons)Eng.

Moderation Policy:-READ THIS BEFORE COMMENTING. I can approve comments using my phone when I'm away from my lap-top, but I prefer to type replies on my lap-top, so please be patient.

Competing Interest:- When you get a $5 discount by using code NIG935 on iHerb.com, I get a $5 reward.