Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal

Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/28/0904:14 PM

Ladies and Gents (though the latter seem to be numerous here), I am considering buying M50s with a VP100, QS4/8 and a EP175/350. I would very much appreciate if any of you, generous souls, would give me a chance to listen to these or similar Axiom speakers in the Montreal area.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/28/0904:25 PM

Welcome Two,

Have you checked page one of the audition thread at the top of this section. Normally, you just send PM (personal message) if you see someone on the list in your area. Otherwise, I'm sure someone will be along soon. For your sub, it is no question, get the 350 over the 175 hands down. Also, you may decide to step up to m60's. How big is your room you will be using?

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/28/0904:40 PM

Hello twoears, thank you for referring to us as "gents" and welcome. If you check the thread under "Hearing Things" called "Auditioning Axioms in your Area", you may find someone who can give you an audition or as SirQ points out, someone from Mount Royal will likely be along and hopefully give you an audition. What kind of budget are you looking at? I agree with SirQ(Randy) on the 350 sub and a possible step up to the M60s(my preference would also be the QS8s as surrounds). Budget and room size?

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/28/0905:11 PM

Hello twoears.

why don't you come on down. we had Luc and Natalie over last week from this forum, and that gave them an idea. you are more than well come to send me a private message (PM). I will send you the contact info.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/28/0905:38 PM

You are looking at the same speakers I did when I was auditioning different speakers. The MAs are a very detailed, clean sounding speaker like the Axioms albeit at a generally higher price of admission esp on the centre and surrounds. They are real veneer which is nice to help justify the pricetag, so if you order Axioms with the optional real wwod finish, the prices are probably quite similar. If you like one of these brands, you'll like the other I'm sure.

My listening/HT area is about 11x14 in the corner of a 15x20 room. TV is on the 14' wall. Front speakers, 9-10' apart, will be have their back close to the wall. Couch faces TV at 10' distance and has 4' of empty corridor behind it. Surrounds will be mounted 1' behind couch attached to wooden columns (part of house architecture) so height is as I wish.

I listen to jazz + classical mostly, and movies, all at moderate volume. In an apartment, I also have to go easy on the LFE, out of regard for neighbors.

Budget in 2000-3000 range. I try no to spend beyond my needs.

I found listening to MA RS6 very pleasant. Main drawback as Adrian says is that the matching center is expensive. If I believe what I read about the importance of timbre matching the 3 front speakers, I would have to buy the RSLCR to go with the RS6. It is little pricey. For the surrounds I would get Axioms anyway.

Choosing the sub is tricky. Lots of posts going in all directions. I was intrigued by those who say that if you have a decent sub you do not need big stereo speakers and the M22 would do very well. Sounds reasonable but I like the floorstanding form factor, and paying/fitting stands is an annoyance.

Main fear with Axiom is the oft debated issue of whether they are bright or not.I will drive them with a Yamaha HTR-6190, a company sometimes accused of bright sound.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/28/0907:37 PM

Twoears, keep in mind also, that if you go with a bookshelf speaker, the price comes up a fair bit when you add the stands to them. Also, if you thought the MA centre was expensive, wait 'till you price the RSFX surrounds! Ouch!...ouch again! (QS8s, BTW, will work with many other speakers esp. MAs, Paradigms, B&W and other detailed speakers).

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/29/0909:34 AM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/29/0911:26 AM

FamilyMan, many thanks to you, your wife and family for being so welcoming and generous with your time. You have a powerful system and playing it at its cruise power is impressive.

My physical environment is quite different and calls for a less powerful system. My ears being a little delicate, my challenge is to pick speakers that can will perform well and give a rich sound in my room at moderate volume.

I don't know if capable speakers like the M60 will perform adequately at the moderate volume I will play them with my average Yamaha HTR-6190.

Whatever speakers I get, I will reciprocate and give you a chance to hear them.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/29/0904:42 PM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/29/0905:55 PM

For low volumes the M80s have the edge over the M22s as the bass can still be heard with out a need for a sub. And as I have discovered, having more power only appears to enhance the low volume listening on the M80s.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/29/0909:39 PM

Thanks very much to LucRaymond who kindly opened his home and home theater to me.

He showed me what M22s can do with a subwoofer, small or large. It gives credence to the opinion supported by many that with an appropriate sub, it is not necessary, or much less necessary to have main speakers that have a strong bass.

I also liked very much the effect that can be obtained by playing music in 5.1 and 7.1. The QS8 performance was convincing, and it confirms them as my choice for surrounds; at least one thing solved!

After my auditions with FamilyMan and LucRaymond, who were very generous, I realize that one limitation is that my test CDs were insufficient. I have very few CDs left as I have converted almost all my music to MP3s (high bit rate, but I should have used a lossless format, had I known better).

As inaccurate as it is, my audio memory tells me that the sound I preferred so far was with the Monitor Audio RS6. I don't mean to say they are better than the Axioms, the audition was in different conditions; it was not an A/B comparison. I would like to have a chance to prove to myself that in equivalent conditions, the Axioms are just as good.

Since the MAs also have a nice bass, I may be able to live with them in a 5.0 HT system until I get a sub.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/29/0909:51 PM

Hello,Keep your original selection of M50s with a VP100, QS4 & EP350. Your room size requires no more to produce prodigious amounts of volume.Perhaps use the extra cash on a DSP controlled sub, thatís where youíll get the biggest bang for your $$$$!

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/29/0910:08 PM

You were originally looking at the M50's which do sound a bit different then the M22's. You could also look at the M60's, they have a very similar sound to the M22 for mids and highs with the added bass of a floorstanding speaker, like you said a sub is not really needed.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0910:21 AM

The pleasure was our Denis. please let me know what you decide. I would greatly like to hook them to my system if possible and try them out.

see you and Luc soon i hope.

PS, i am waiting to see what Luc and Natalie decide as well.

Hey Marco, feel free to drop by. I'm still testing different configurations. Last night I tried my AX 1.5 as a center and it sounded really good. There is a chance that I don't order the vp-150 and take an additional m3/m22/m60/m80 instead. I may end up with 3xm80 in the front, the deciding factor will be the height of the speaker. I don't want my center to cast a shadow on my screen.

I will place my order in the second week of April, allow a three weeks delay (factory outlet).

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0903:55 PM

If you are willing to pay the premium for the MA's, I would buy them. I found them to be very good, nicely detailed, just haven't had a chance to get them A/B'd with my Axiom's. I still prefer the Axiom sound but then again this is what I am used to.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0904:41 PM

I have not heard the M50, just know about it's sound from the forums, the M60 has more than enough bass for music and I think would be acceptable for HT, if a sub is not desired, but there really is no substitute for a sub with HT. I think the M60 might sound the closest to the MA's, I have only listened to MA's in a store and the M60s in my own home, so take it FWIW.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0905:02 PM

I'll probably be shot for this, but I'd get the M60s out of those 3. I have the M50s as well as the M80s and M22s, and I've heard the M60s. The M22s, M60s, and M80s are pretty similar in terms of soundstage, imaging, and general sound. The M50s are good, and certainly have more bass than M22s. They're not quite as detailed (although we're really splitting hairs here) and the soundstage isn't quite as good. Either that or they're more picky about placement.

Caveat: I have the M50tis. It's certainly possible that the M50v2s have significant improvements.

Either the M50s or the M60s will take care of you as far as bass for music, and should be adequate as far as HT, as long as you're not expecting anything seriously rumbly.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0905:23 PM

It's entirely possible that the RS6's sound closer to the M50's as they are similar in design...2 1/2 way vs the 3 way design of the M60s and M80s. Regardless, they are an enjoyable speaker to listen too.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0905:33 PM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0905:45 PM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0906:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Adrian

It's entirely possible that the RS6's sound closer to the M50's as they are similar in design...2 1/2 way vs the 3 way design of the M60s and M80s. Regardless, they are an enjoyable speaker to listen too.

I just felt they sounded simialr to the M60s. I think as Ken said it really is splitting hairs as to the sound of each, but I know I was taken aback at the less forward sound of the M60s compared to my M22s, but now that I have heard the M22v2, I think the M60/M22 are very close. My M22s Ti's are closer to the M80s forwardness, which is why I ended up with M80s and most likely why I feel most other speakers sound closer to the M60's sound except but a few.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0906:11 PM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0906:12 PM

Speaker reviews measure many things but the one thing missing is the specs of the listener. I imagine no two ears experience sound exactly the same way. I would describe mine as rather sensitive, not necessarily better or more refined.

When I go to movie theaters I often feel pain because it is too loud. I find offensive a lot of the musak we hear in public places. I usually speak in low voice because I hear myself loud enough. I can't go to concerts with amplified music; my ears can't stand it. I listen only to accoustic music and vocals. I love "good" (cannot define it) music with a full sound without being loud. And I prefer silence to bad music.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0906:14 PM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0906:30 PM

It sounds like you are describing the type of music you prefer more so than the speakers you like twoears. That said, I thoroughly enjoy playing a wide range of music on my Axioms. Acoustic artists such as James Taylor and The Sundays really shine on them as does classical and well recorded music of virtually any kind. I have a preference for moderate volume in general as well so I can "hear more". I agree with the advice that I was given when auditioning speakers...that would be to use your own music preferences(hopefully quality recordings), give your ears a chance to 'adjust', play at the volume you prefer, take your time and make a note of what you liked/disliked about the speakers so you will remember. It's always good to play "challenging" music with a lot of variance such as Classical music as opposed to Pop or Hip Hop.

Something you see more and more people doing is wearing earplugs at live concerts, which actually help you hear better if they are decent plugs. Often the arenas or venues that are being used have poor acoustics unfortunately.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0910:45 PM

I'm not really certain. It could certainly merely be a placement issue. The M50s are a bit less accurate than the M80s (slightly recessed treble), although not nearly as much as some would lead you to believe. That may have played into it.

Just asked her; I'm wrong. It was that she preferred the M80s not toed in; firing at her was unpleasant.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0910:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Adrian

It sounds like you are describing the type of music you prefer more so than the speakers you like twoears. That said, I thoroughly enjoy playing a wide range of music on my Axioms. Acoustic artists such as James Taylor and The Sundays really shine on them as does classical and well recorded music of virtually any kind. I have a preference for moderate volume in general as well so I can "hear more". I agree with the advice that I was given when auditioning speakers...that would be to use your own music preferences(hopefully quality recordings), give your ears a chance to 'adjust', play at the volume you prefer, take your time and make a note of what you liked/disliked about the speakers so you will remember. It's always good to play "challenging" music with a lot of variance such as Classical music as opposed to Pop or Hip Hop.

I don't master the vocabulary to describe speakers.

If I try I would say that what pleased me in the MA RS6 was that they did not sound boxy, that they were airy, had a generous enveloping bass, the higher frequencies had detail without harshness, the voices sounded warm and generous. I felt like I wanted to continue listening. I don't want to be too lyrical but there is something seductive about them.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0911:18 PM

Originally Posted By: twoears

Speaker reviews measure many things but the one thing missing is the specs of the listener. I imagine no two ears experience sound exactly the same way. I would describe mine as rather sensitive, not necessarily better or more refined.

When I go to movie theaters I often feel pain because it is too loud. I find offensive a lot of the musak we hear in public places. I usually speak in low voice because I hear myself loud enough. I can't go to concerts with amplified music; my ears can't stand it. I listen only to accoustic music and vocals. I love "good" (cannot define it) music with a full sound without being loud. And I prefer silence to bad music.

Now, how does that translate into a good choice of speakers?

I am replying to myself now... I'll soon need a shrink.

What I would like to have to that dB vs frequency graph but for my ears.

Imagine matching listeners and speakers based on their graphs. A computerized matchmaking system could find your perfect companion in a brave new world of audio.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0911:39 PM

Hello twoears (I love the name... twoears)

I've not heard the Monitor Audio system in direct comparison with any of the Axiom systems. I have heard both the MA RS6 and RS8 side by side and they were virtually indistinguishable, to my ears at any rate. Monitor Audio has always been a favourite of mine, British loudspeakers in general I confess, and so perhaps my opinion is prejudiced a tad.

One thing you should keep in mind when considering opinions from forum members, including those of myself, is that if an individual has not heard a set of loudspeakers over an extended time period of time, they simply donít have enough experience with that system, and are making an educated guess on the sound of that system, which, indeed, is what most of us can offer.

Further, itís very easy for an individual whose opinion is respected to influence the opinions of others. i.e. Ė Alan Lofftís opinion of the M50ís. (I never thought Iíd experience an employee trivialize a product their trying to sell?)

As Iíve indicated in past posts, Iíve never heard the M60ís or M80ís (I own M50ís, I love them) so I cannot offer an opinion. If I were to ever consider another Axiom system, the M60ís would be my ďupgradeĒ (big maybe). I would not consider the M80ís.

Consider the impedance and sensitivity of the loudspeaker, but donít get caught up in the numbers either, your ears will tell you far more than specifications ever will.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/30/0911:54 PM

I just did a quick test, adding a low cost subwoofer to my old Pierre-Etienne Leon M1 speakers, and it made quite a difference.

If I could find a matching center, I would consider the option of keeping them and add a sub and surrounds.

Twoears, I've not heard of those speakers you have but that is an option you might consider...ordering a centre channel, and trying it out. Axiom gives you 30 days to trial the speakers, if you feel they don't match...you just pay shipping to send them back. Perhaps one of the guys who has Axioms near you would let you hear your speakers with their centre?

How would you describe "the perfect sound" that you are looking for? Do you like a warmer or 'laid back' sound? a more forward, detailed sound? certain speaker co's have certain traits or characteristics in their products. Companies like Axiom, Paradigm, Monitor Audio, B&W, Kef and Klipsh to name a few, have somewhat similar approach to sound.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/31/0912:01 AM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/31/0912:26 AM

How would you describe "the perfect sound" that you are looking for? Do you like a warmer or 'laid back' sound? a more forward, detailed sound?

What I said in post #254595 is pretty close:

Originally Posted By: twoears

... what pleased me in the MA RS6 was that they did not sound boxy, that they were airy, had a generous enveloping bass, the higher frequencies had detail without harshness, the voices sounded warm and generous. I felt like I wanted to continue listening. I don't want to be too lyrical but there is something seductive about them.

I am not sure what laid back refers to sonically, but too forward (as is in "in your face") does not appeal to me. I like being surrounded by sound though. Purists might object, but I enjoy playing certain things on many channels, and even - oh shocking - using the enhancer modes of the receiver.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 03/31/0903:09 AM

Twoears, you sound like you like to listen at low volumes for the most, IMO Axiom is the best speaker for low volumes. I think your description of the MA's is very accurate. I find that smoothness they had, would hide minute details that I could hear easily with my M80's, I think the M60s would have hid those details just a little, much like the ma rs 6'S, but again I think we are splitting hairs.

Again I stress this all from memory and coming up on a year and a half ago now, but I think I am recalling my thoughts at the time quite clearly.

Best way for you to know for sure would be to try the M60s, in your house; the return shipping is reasonable with Axiom's account price, ~$70 I think for the pair.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 04/03/0909:18 AM

(What's funny about that is that Jack is THE most reasonable guy on ANY forum)!

I'll second that!

Aw Shucks! Thanks for the kind words, fellas. Means a lot to me.

What's really interesting is, I just read this whole thread for the first time. As I went through it, I was struck by how even-handed, friendly, and helpful everyone was being, even when discussing speakers other than Axioms. Quite unusual, really. You guys have a right to be proud of yourselves and this forum. You've mastered making the end result the most important thing. In this case, the desired end result is that Twoears ends up with a system which provides him as much pleasure as ours do us.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 04/03/0906:16 PM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 04/29/0909:49 PM

Oye, Oye, I finally cracked last week and bought new speakers!

I now have a pair of front Monitor Audio RS6 and an RS-LCR center. I added a Paradigm DSP-3100 subwoofer to the mix. And I am using my old Pierre-Etienne Leon M1 as surround until I perhaps decide to replace them with a pair of QS4/8.

I really can't say if they are any better than Axiom. I don't pretend they are, I just don't know, yet.

How did I make the decision? Shopping for speakers is fun but it can also become a torture. I toyed with many scenarios to try, order, wait, test, send back, etc to death. One night, before going to bed I asked myself, what is the point of buying speakers? Simple answer: pleasure, to make myself happy. So, what had I learned in my little exploration experience so far?- for the pleasure of the ears: MA- for the pleasure of the eyes: MA- for the pleasure of having them sooner: MA- to avoid any displeasure of shipping back and forth: MA

Had I had more patience, I would have tried a kit of M22 + VP100 + QS8, but by then I was tired and impatient. The following day, I was connecting the wires to the new babies.

So far, I like them. They are even supposed to get better after break-in (I know some people do not believe in break-in; I don't know, the salesman said that when they receive new speakers they do not sound the ones that have been broken-in. Perhaps.)

Again, my choice is not the outcome of comparing Axiom and MA. I just picked from what was my best experience so far to put an end to the quest.

So, Family Man, as promised, I could pack the RS6s for trip to meet your M80s. And Luc, you are welcome to join in. The more ears the better.

Thanks to all who helped prolong the agony ;-) and helped to learn a few things in the process.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 04/30/0906:28 PM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 05/01/0903:43 PM

Reading through this thread, I came across a nasty comment of yours, to wit:

"i.e. Ė Alan Lofftís opinion of the M50ís. (I never thought Iíd experience an employee trivialize a product their trying to sell?)"

I have never trivialized the M50s; they are a very nicely balanced speaker, just slightly less detailed than the M60s, M80s and M22s. And that isn't "opinion". Those conclusions are a result of many days of double-blind listening tests using a wide variety of recordings of virtually every musical genre and instantaneous A/B switching. Axiom performs its listening tests exactly in the manner that the original National Research Council tests were conducted, as originally designed by Dr. Floyd Toole, whose paper "Turning Opinion Into Fact" you might benefit from reading.

Contrary to the popular belief that "we all hear differently", in fact, the majority of people with normal hearing--when auditioning speakers blind, with the price, brand and size concealed--agree on which speakers are the most natural and "musical" and which speakers are the most inaccurate and unpleasant. Given two very good speakers that are closely ranked in blind tests (no two sound absolutely identical), you may have a slight preference for one over the other, but often that choice may be largely dictated by a particular musical selection. The phrase "similarly good" applies in such cases, and, as I've stated here before, sound quality and neutral accurate musical reproduction do not correlate with loudspeaer price. I've tested very costly speakers under blind conditions that trailed by a large margin some Axiom, Paradigm and PSB models that cost a fraction of the price (including such brands as Kef, Thiel, and others).

I continue to do the listening tests to the entire product line at Axiom and suggest changes if I detect glitches or resonances. For the record, the tonal balance of the latest version of the M50s is very like that of the M3s, with deeper bass extension and output.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 05/01/0907:59 PM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 05/01/0908:49 PM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 05/01/0910:54 PM

Originally Posted By: twoears

Oye, Oye, I finally cracked last week and bought new speakers!

I now have a pair of front Monitor Audio RS6 and an RS-LCR center. I added a Paradigm DSP-3100 subwoofer to the mix. And I am using my old Pierre-Etienne Leon M1 as surround until I perhaps decide to replace them with a pair of QS4/8.

I really can't say if they are any better than Axiom. I don't pretend they are, I just don't know, yet.

How did I make the decision? Shopping for speakers is fun but it can also become a torture. I toyed with many scenarios to try, order, wait, test, send back, etc to death. One night, before going to bed I asked myself, what is the point of buying speakers? Simple answer: pleasure, to make myself happy. So, what had I learned in my little exploration experience so far?- for the pleasure of the ears: MA- for the pleasure of the eyes: MA- for the pleasure of having them sooner: MA- to avoid any displeasure of shipping back and forth: MA

Had I had more patience, I would have tried a kit of M22 + VP100 + QS8, but by then I was tired and impatient. The following day, I was connecting the wires to the new babies.

So far, I like them. They are even supposed to get better after break-in (I know some people do not believe in break-in; I don't know, the salesman said that when they receive new speakers they do not sound the ones that have been broken-in. Perhaps.)

Again, my choice is not the outcome of comparing Axiom and MA. I just picked from what was my best experience so far to put an end to the quest.

So, Family Man, as promised, I could pack the RS6s for trip to meet your M80s. And Luc, you are welcome to join in. The more ears the better.

Thanks to all who helped prolong the agony ;-) and helped to learn a few things in the process.

it would be a pleasure. you are more that welcome to come over again Denis. I have told Luc that i would see his setup as well. I will call him and we could get together here or at Luc's place. i really want to here the MA's

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 05/02/0908:42 AM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 05/02/0908:50 AM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 05/02/0909:33 AM

Hey, what's a pb&j? Have I been away from Canada too long? Has my cultural anchor come loose? Is Steven (Stephen?) Harper still in charge? Am I losing touch? (I just learned from my former spouse that iHOP is the International House of Pancakes!)

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 05/02/0909:49 AM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 05/02/0909:50 AM

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 05/02/0910:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Family Man

it would be a pleasure. you are more that welcome to come over again Denis. I have told Luc that i would see his setup as well. I will call him and we could get together here or at Luc's place. i really want to here the MA's

I'll bring them to your ears Family Man. Your place is easier to reach and will lend itself better to the experience.

Re: Listening to M50 or similar in Montreal - 05/03/0901:19 PM

I donít believe that I have ever implied that these loudspeakers in question sound exactly alike; but rather have questioned just how much of a different there is! To quote you sir describing the M50ís/60ís (M22ís?):"But these subtle differences are really only easily noticeable on instantaneous A/B comparisons with a switcher."

Allow me to repeat myself from another post; if I favourably compare the M60ís/M80ís to European loudspeakers priced at $2500.00, most of the people on this forum would have no problem accepting this comparison. But if I compare the M50ís to the M60ís/M80ís which are built by the same manufacturer in the same building, using essentially the same drivers, technology and research, people frown. Why is this?

Sir, I visit this forum for exclusively for amusement and respond only if I have information worth contributing. Further, some forum members refer to Axiom as if it is sentient, I do not, itís just a business to which I have no contrived loyalty.