Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider
registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.

The proof of the pudding that there are conspiracies at high levels of society is media's insistence that there are NONE.

Let's see. Big pharma and the mainstream media insist vaccines are absolutely safe but close to NONE of the vaccines are tested with a control group. They have convinced much of the American public that questioning the safety of vaccines is criminal.

Yet commercial after commercial airs up front and personal that if you've taken DRUG X, Y, or Z contact my law firm. Now you know those drugs, I think ZOLOFT is the star of the newer ripe for litigation drugs, were supposed to be tested with a control group! What happened.

And the media pretty much crucifies anyone who dares suggest a link between autism and vaccines. Why would the media trust and speak out for an industry/community with such a poor drug testing track record?

Nobody says that. There are inherent risks to anything you decide to put in your body. The risks however, are very low. Much lower than people like you would have other idiots believe.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

but close to NONE of the vaccines are tested with a control group.

I have no idea about this specifically, but since you said it, I suspected it was nonsense. A 5 min Google suggests it is.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Yet commercial after commercial airs up front and personal that if you've taken DRUG X, Y, or Z contact my law firm. Now you know those drugs, I think ZOLOFT is the star of the newer ripe for litigation drugs, were supposed to be tested with a control group! What happened.

I do like the fact that ambulance-chasing lawyers are a good metric for you when determining the truth of a matter. Also, what does Zoloft et al have to do with vaccines?

but here they are providing advertising for said ambulance chasers. Seems like the Main Stream Media is having it two-ways, those cunning buggers.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

And the media pretty much crucifies anyone who dares suggest a link between autism and vaccines.

That's because there isn't any evidence to support it. You're basically complaining that the media is "crucifying" people for telling lies. Poor information convinces the easily led and gullible into making equally poor lifestyle choices (re vaccination), which can impact the lives of third parties.

And then the really gullible waste other people's time on the internet by posting petulant nonsense.

The 87 per cent reduction in Group C disease was statistically significant. Group B meningococci caused illness in four immunized and three control recruits, indicating the group specificity of the vaccine. Group C carrier acquisitions among vaccinated persons were markedly reduced.

Methods In a group-randomised study, we gave this vaccine to children younger than 2 years from the Navajo and White Mountain Apache Indian reservations; meningococcal type C conjugate vaccine (MnCC) served as the control vaccine

Prevention of recurrent herpes simplex, despite numerous recommended procedures, has remained a problem. In one of our previous studies, inoculation with a nonspecific vaccine gave results no better than those with the same vaccine which had been heatinactivated. It appeared possible that a specific vaccine might produce greater benefit. A double-blind study has recently been conducted in which one group of patients with recurrent herpes simplex received a series of injections of a specific herpes virus vaccine while the control group was given a placebo solution. No significant difference between the results in the two groups was obtained. It is concluded that the benefit observed is attributable to psychotherapeutic effects.

Two hundred twenty-one Gambian children vaccinated previously with one, two, or three doses of a meningococcal conjugate vaccine or two doses of polysaccharide vaccine before the age of 6 months were revaccinated a t the age of 18-24 months with either meningococcal polysaccharide, conjugate, or inactivated polio vaccines. Children who had previously received one, two, or three doses of conjugate vaccine had significantly (P < .001) higher ant i -group C meningococcal antibody levels following revaccination than did children vaccinated with a polysaccharide vaccine for the first time. Children vaccinated previously with two doses of polysaccharide vaccine had a lower group C antibody response than did control children. Group A antibody responses following revaccination of children who had previously received polysaccharide or conjugate vaccine were not significantly higher than those in control children. Thus, immunologic memory was probably induced by the group C but not by the group A component of the conjugate vaccine.

Yawn...I got bored doing this. Perhaps you can tell us what you mean by no controls. I'm going to guess it's something you read somewhere, but don't understand, and go around posting places where you think no one will know better. Show me how wrong I am.

__________________I've seen it here and in several other places that there is no Illuminati. That doesn't even make sense. There's a Wikipedia entry that talks about it. I'm not saying that everything on Wikipedia is true, but if you read it, it's just really clear how the Illuminati controls the world.

Yawn...I got bored doing this. Perhaps you can tell us what you mean by no controls. I'm going to guess it's something you read somewhere, but don't understand, and go around posting places where you think no one will know better. Show me how wrong I am.

Being in a control group and not receiving a new vaccine is considered a danger to children because they do not receive protection.
FYI

While googling to find the Tribune article, I instead found Orac's site. Who is Orac? Well, suffice to say that he has some mysterious desire to want autism to be only a genetic disorder. He gets upset if you discuss vaccines or the environment as causative factors. The usual suspects of the neurodiverse world and the assorted anonymous Wackosphere characters were hanging out at his site with their typical sarcasm and "blood-thirsty" DAN! comments. Orac though was beyond his usual histrionic self as his comments were pointed at the exact wording of the lawsuit. He actually had the lawsuit in a pdf file for the taking on his site! Now how, within hours of the Trib posting and to be exact, the Trib article by Patricia Callahan was posted online at 5:19 p.m. CST, March 4, 2010 and Orac had his pdf and blog up at March 5, 2010 3:00 AM. Appears to be quite bizarre and a bit suspicious?

Let's see. Big pharma and the mainstream media insist vaccines are absolutely safe but close to NONE of the vaccines are tested with a control group.

But they are;

Safety is (mostly) tested in the Phase I - III trials.

Efficacy is tested against the current standard vaccine(s).
Simplisticly, the combination of these determines the risk\benefit ratio and whether the new vaccine is a suitable replacement

Everything is then checked with epidemiology when it's in use (handy for those 1 in 100,00 side effects)

__________________“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” - Charles Darwin

...like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was. - Tom Lehrer

*Author’s note: Many people raise the issue of the Declaration of Helsinki and its amendments in answer to these issues regarding placebo and safety studies. The Declaration prohibits the use of placebo control groups if there is already a “proven” treatment. (It is considered withholding treatment to use a placebo instead of the “approved” treatment.) Thus, you must only compare the “new” treatment to the “old” or existing treatment, when there is an “approved” treatment in place. However, others interpret this to mean that placebos can be used in safety studies, but cannot in efficacy studies.

So, we are not seeing proof that x vaccine is safe. What these studies prove is that x vaccine is safer than the ”other” vaccine.

**All studies listed excluded children who weren’t healthy–roughly 60% of the general population of infants and children would not be accepted into a vaccine study.

You ignored the above. It means the above unhealthy children will likely be required to get vaccinated with no "unhealthy" children involved in the study. 60 freaking percent. That is criminal.

Ohhhhhh...you mean placebo control groups. So you mean that even though there are probably hundreds of studies that compare vaccinated and unvaccinated groups under similar conditions, that's not a control group? Why do you think that?

You should understand that no one here believes things just because they were posted on an anti-vaccine website. Nor do most here feel the need to check these so-called facts. It is widely believed that such websites misquote people, use facts incorrectly or even make things up and pretend they are true. In short, I don't care what the Inside Vaccine website has to say because I believe neither you nor the people who made that website understand anything about clinical trials or medical research.

You would have more credibility if you stopped pasting excerpts from anti-vaccine websites and referred to actual studies.

__________________I've seen it here and in several other places that there is no Illuminati. That doesn't even make sense. There's a Wikipedia entry that talks about it. I'm not saying that everything on Wikipedia is true, but if you read it, it's just really clear how the Illuminati controls the world.

The parents of Hannah Poling, 9, sought damages after their daughter developed autism.

The parents of a 9-year-old girl with autism said Thursday that their assertion that her illness was caused by childhood vaccines has been vindicated by the federal government's decision to compensate them.

Quote:

A federal program intended to compensate victims of injuries caused by vaccines concluded last November that Hannah Poling's underlying illness that had predisposed her to symptoms of autism was "significantly aggravated" by the vaccinations she received as a toddler and that her family should therefore be compensated.
Advertisement

Quote:

But within 48 hours after receiving nine routinely administered childhood vaccines in July 2000, the girl's health rapidly declined, she said.

The decision to award compensation in that case had nothing to do with a vaccine causing autism.

Quote:

In this case, "CHILD [Hannah Poling] v. Secretary of Health and Human Services," the court "concluded that the facts of this case meet the statutory criteria for demonstrating that the vaccinations CHILD received on July 19, 2000, significantly aggravated an underlying mitochondrial disorder, which predisposed her to deficits in cellular energy metabolism, and manifested as a regressive encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder. Therefore, respondent recommends that compensation be awarded to petitioners."

It wasn't intended to. If the case is gonna give the parents a fair settlement the language of the settlement is of little importance to them but super important for the "record" that the vaccine company admits no guilt. Much more important.

The 9 vaccines did cause the autism. Certainly the girl was part of the 60% of all the children that were unhealthy and not allowed to take part in the survey mentioned in a previous post.

Wrong (again). That's not what the court found. Either you're a liar or you're incapable of understanding the court's decision.

Quote:

Does that mean vaccines caused Hannah to become autistic?

No. Look again at the court statement: Hannah has "an underlying mitochondrial disorder, which predisposed her to deficits in cellular energy metabolism, and manifested as a regressive encephalopathy with features of autistic spectrum disorder." Throughout the document, both Hannah's doctors and lab results support the diagnosis of mitochondrial disorder.

Not a diagnosis of autism?

Right. Mitochondrial disorder does not equal autism. Generally speaking, mitochondria are the parts of our cells that help generate energy. When they fail, the body's cells go awry, which can lead to failures in any number of normal body functions. There are at least 40 known mitochondrial disorders, and probably many more we haven't yet found. But it's clear from the transcript of the court's decision that this was not a case of vaccines causing autism. Rather, this is a case where the court deemed it plausible that vaccines aggravated an underlying disease caused by bad mitochondria, and that some of the symptoms Hannah showed were similar to autism. As you'll see below, there are even questions about that conclusion.

Wrong (again). That's not what the court found. Either you're a liar or you're incapable of understanding the court's decision.

Coming from a supporter of junk science, I take that as a compliment.

It wasn't intended to. If the case is gonna give the parents a fair settlement the language of the settlement is of little importance to them but super important for the "record" that the vaccine company admits no guilt. Much more important.

The 9 vaccines did cause the autism. Certainly the girl was part of the 60% of all the children that were unhealthy and not allowed to take part in the survey mentioned in a previous post.

The toddler had a condition but did not have autism.
48hrs after she got 9 vaccines, I'm guessing by inoculation, she got autism, she became autistic.

I don't give a crap what the decision says because the language of the decision was agreed to by opposing councils.

I see you are 32. If you have young children or intend to have them I hope you ignore your faith in vaccines and space them, one at a time, as far apart as possible.
That's what my son and his wife have done for their little girl who will be 3 this summer. Both are special ed teachers.

The toddler had a condition but did not have autism.
48hrs after she got 9 vaccines, I'm guessing by inoculation, she got autism, she became autistic.

I don't give a crap what the decision says because the language of the decision was agreed to by opposing councils.

And neither should you.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc reasoning.

I get up every morning before the sun comes up. Does that mean my getting up in the morning makes the sun come up? Or could it be that sunrise and my scheduled wake-up time just happen to occur at close to the same time?

__________________To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion.

Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

I see you are 32. If you have young children or intend to have them I hope you ignore your faith in vaccines and space them, one at a time, as far apart as possible.
That's what my son and his wife have done for their little girl who will be 3 this summer. Both are special ed teachers.

Have you any actual evidence for this assertion? Or are you just claiming your inexpert opinion makes it true?
I'm sure you'll provide you credentials in microbiology, biochemistry, virology, epidemiology and neurology then.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

48hrs after she got 9 vaccines, I'm guessing by inoculation, she got autism, she became autistic.

So you admit you know nothing about this case, not even the nature of the vaccines or their method of deployment. Further ignorance on display.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I don't give a crap what the decision says because the language of the decision was agreed to by opposing councils.

(NaturalNews) New documents have emerged that clear Dr Andrew Wakefield of the allegations of fraud recently made by the British Medical Journal and its reporter Brian Deer. This new evidence "completely negates the allegations that I committed scientific
fraud. Brian Deer and Dr. Godlee of the British Medical Journal (BMJ) knew or should
have known about the facts set out below before publishing their false allegations," says Dr Andrew Wakefield (see sources, below).

...

Over a decade of crime against babies.

Snipped for compliance with Rule 4. Do not copy and paste lengthy tracts from elsewhere. Instead, just post a short passage and a link to the source.

How much vaccine research is based on outright fraud?
It also raises the question: How many other scientific researchers and grant money administrators are on the take, pocketing taxpayer dollars that were intended for research purposes? How many of these people falsify their research data in order to keep getting grant money injections into their private bank accounts? Just how deep does the collusion between the corrupt scientific community and the fraudulent vaccine industry really go?

And, of course, what is the CDC's role in all this? It has been one of the top cheerleaders for the vaccine industry for at least the past decade. Now, we are learning that a CDC section chief knowingly or unknowingly colluded with a physician and researcher who has now been indicted for fraud and money laundering. How high up the CDC does this alleged fraud really go?

I don't know the answer to that. But it's not that complicated to figure out, especially when CDC employees become Big Pharma vaccine employees, and vice-versa. It's all a giant government-corporate-medicine orgy where the scientific trust was abandoned long ago in favor of Big Pharma profits.

We'll do our best here at NaturalNews to find out the rest of this story and bring it to you. That's what we do. That's why we're the 4th largest alternative news website in the world (and growing every day). We bring you the news about the fraud and corruption in the pharmaceutical industry that most mainstream media sources won't dare touch. Subscribe to my free daily email newsletter to receive a daily email that I send out, containing links to the top stories you need to know about. It's free, so sign up now at: http://www.naturalnews.com/readerre...

By the way, I strongly recommend that you become a regular readers of www.AgeOfAutism.com which provides outstanding reporting on these issues. Make that site one of your regular sources of information. You'll be amazed by what they are able to report.

__________________I've seen it here and in several other places that there is no Illuminati. That doesn't even make sense. There's a Wikipedia entry that talks about it. I'm not saying that everything on Wikipedia is true, but if you read it, it's just really clear how the Illuminati controls the world.

Clayton is just telling us what he believes in. And he's quite the conspiracy believer. He's a Holocaust denier, a 9/11 'truther,' and now (apparently) an anti-vaxxer. (I eagerly await his dissertations on Pearl Harbor, the JFK assassination, and the Apollo moon landings. He's already got one trifecta going; I see no reason for him to not go for another!)

__________________"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."

Clayton is just telling us what he believes in. And he's quite the conspiracy believer. He's a Holocaust denier, a 9/11 'truther,' and now (apparently) an anti-vaxxer. (I eagerly await his dissertations on Pearl Harbor, the JFK assassination, and the Apollo moon landings. He's already got one trifecta going; I see no reason for him to not go for another!)

Thanks. I was wondering what was happening here. I generally think watching TV is waste of life, but I think for some, it's better than the hobbies they have now.

__________________I've seen it here and in several other places that there is no Illuminati. That doesn't even make sense. There's a Wikipedia entry that talks about it. I'm not saying that everything on Wikipedia is true, but if you read it, it's just really clear how the Illuminati controls the world.

Clayton is just telling us what he believes in. And he's quite the conspiracy believer. He's a Holocaust denier, a 9/11 'truther,' and now (apparently) an anti-vaxxer. (I eagerly await his dissertations on Pearl Harbor, the JFK assassination, and the Apollo moon landings. He's already got one trifecta going; I see no reason for him to not go for another!)

How do you think movers and shakers make decisions? Are all the confabs and subsequent decisions for the benefit of the common man?

How do you think movers and shakers make decisions? Are all the confabs and subsequent decisions for the benefit of the common man?

Error: Non sequitur. Please try again.

__________________"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."

There's no doctor named Andrew Wakefield published in any british medical journal.

I think he was tossed as a result of an investigation after Deer's slipshod reporting.

Quote:

Brian Deer caught as a liar
It has also been revealed that journalist Brian Deer, the author of the BMJ article condemning Dr Wakefield as a fraud, is himself a liar. In attempting to gather evidence for his article in the BMJ, he lied about his identity and entered the home of one of the parents of the autism children. Specifically, he claimed he was working for The Sunday Times even though he was never a Sunday Times employee.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of the outright deception that has been used by the BMJ and Brian Deer in their attempt to silence a doctor whose only "crime" was publicly expressing concern about the safety of MMR vaccines.

That the BMJ and its writer Brian Deer have now been caught ignoring evidence and engaging in their own fraud gives credence to the idea that MMR vaccines may, indeed, not only be dangerous; but that they may be so dangerous that the top medical journals have to lie about the facts in order to protect them.

What's clear here is that the BMJ has strayed so far from the realm of evidence-based scientific thinking that it can no longer be called a reputable medical journal at all. Its callous disregard for the truth -- and its politically-motivated witch hunt against a researcher who only sought to protect the health of children -- exposes it as a danger to the scientific community and the world of conventional medicine.

As this truth unfolds, these revelations will rock the medical world and expose these science journals as the frauds they truly are. Think about this: While these medical journals are taking money from vaccine manufacturers (who pay their ads), they are ignoring any scientific evidence they don't like in order to vilify anyone who threatens the profits of these very same vaccine companies! And yet, these medical journals never admit that their very existence depends on the financial flow of money from these vaccine manufacturers who are strongly impacted by their editorial decisions!

__________________I've seen it here and in several other places that there is no Illuminati. That doesn't even make sense. There's a Wikipedia entry that talks about it. I'm not saying that everything on Wikipedia is true, but if you read it, it's just really clear how the Illuminati controls the world.

There's no doctor named Andrew Wakefield published in any british medical journal.

I get it. He's not a physician anymore. So he's not Dr. Wakefield....I get it....

__________________I've seen it here and in several other places that there is no Illuminati. That doesn't even make sense. There's a Wikipedia entry that talks about it. I'm not saying that everything on Wikipedia is true, but if you read it, it's just really clear how the Illuminati controls the world.

Wasn't your mocking post implying that there are no conspiracies because any issue that becomes CT is nonsense?

No, I was implying that you believe in three conspiracy theories in spite of massive evidence demonstrating the theories are false. Therefore it seems plausible that you will easily swallow three additional conspiracy theories.

__________________"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."

LONDON — A doctor whose research and public statements caused widespread alarm that a common childhood vaccine could cause autism was banned on Monday from practicing medicine in his native Britain for ethical lapses, including conducting invasive medical procedures on children that they did not need.

The General Medical Council applied its most severe sanction against the doctor, Andrew Wakefield, 53, who abandoned his medical practice in Britain in 2004 as questions intensified about his research and set up a center to study childhood developmental disorders in Texas, despite not being licensed as a physician there.

In January, after the longest investigation in its history, the council found several instances of what it said was unprofessional conduct by Dr. Wakefield. It cited his taking blood samples for his study from children at his son’s birthday party; he paid each child £5, about $7.20 today, and joked about it later. It also noted that part of the costs of Dr. Wakefield’s research was paid by lawyers for parents seeking to sue vaccine makers for damages.