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Look I am no fan of the GOP's leadership "view" on health care reform (and I have the distinct displeasure of living in Eric Cantor's district), but these sort of comments will do nothing but make any meaningful reform THAT MUCH MORE UNLIKELY.

Grayson is ignorant and lacks any common sense if he thinks this was helpful. Sure it will fire up the far left, just as the idiot from SC fired up the far right with his "You lie" fiasco, but it will not help health care reform.

Demonizing others (even if they deserve it) will not move the Congress to doing what it is suppose to do -- Govern. It will only increase the polarization.

And before anyone starts ranting about how the Dems can forget about Republicans and ram something through -- read the news more carefully -- even some Dems are not happy with some of the bills out there, so they, very simply, can NOT ram it through without at least a couple of Repub Senators coming along.

Ray, what is in the bill that they are trying to push through? You haven't read it, nor has any of Congress. I doubt that you sign contracts without reading them and you shouldn't expect anyone else to.

If the Republicans are so aghast at his comments, why didn't they say anything to their own when they said the following:

Take Rep. Ginny Brown-Waite (R-Fla.), who said in July: "Last week, Democrats released a health care bill which essentially said to America's seniors: drop dead."

Or Rep. Paul Broun (R-Ga.), a doctor, who reviewed the public health insurance option in July and diagnosed that it is "gonna kill people."

Rep. Virginia Foxx (R-N.C.), not one to pull punches, suggested on the House floor that Congress "make sure we bring down the cost of health care for all Americans and that ensures affordable access for all Americans and is pro-life because it will not put seniors in a position of being put to death by their government."

July was a busy time for House floor death sentences. Also that month, Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas), noted: "One in five people have to die because they went to socialized medicine...I would hate to think that among five women, one of 'em is gonna die because we go to socialized care."

Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) had a similar assessment. "They're going to save money by rationing care, getting you in a long line. Places like Canada, United Kingdom, and Europe. People die when they're in line," he said on the House floor in July.

After lying America into the Iraq war, I don't hear any Republicans APOLOGIZING for doing that, while killing THOUSANDS OF OUR AMERICAN TROOPS. It's about time the Democrats got their act together and voted in health care reform.

Look I am no fan of the GOP's leadership "view" on health care reform (and I have the distinct displeasure of living in Eric Cantor's district), but these sort of comments will do nothing but make any meaningful reform THAT MUCH MORE UNLIKELY.

Grayson is ignorant and lacks any common sense if he thinks this was helpful. Sure it will fire up the far left, just as the idiot from SC fired up the far right with his "You lie" fiasco, but it will not help health care reform.

Demonizing others (even if they deserve it) will not move the Congress to doing what it is suppose to do -- Govern. It will only increase the polarization.

And before anyone starts ranting about how the Dems can forget about Republicans and ram something through -- read the news more carefully -- even some Dems are not happy with some of the bills out there, so they, very simply, can NOT ram it through without at least a couple of Repub Senators coming along.

Reality (and some civility) has to come into the discussion.

Mike

I think you need to read the Republican "view" on meaningful healthcare reform and get back to us with the proposal. There isn't one. The Republican "view" as you call it is to defeat any meaningful healthcare reform and retain the status quo. This gooey marshmallow center you love to quote favors healthcare reform and every poll taken proves it.

Elections have consequences and the center elected Obama with an expectation that the Democrats would pass healthcare. If you believe that the Republican leadership has any intentions of negotiating in good faith makes your pie-in-the-sky outlook the problem, not the solution.

There will be no healthcare reform trying to appease Republicans. THEY DO NOT WANT HEALTHCARE REFORM. Your congressman, Eric Cantor a member of the Republican leadership constantly reinforces their "view." One side wants healthcare reform, the other side doesn't. Got it?

Oh, and Congressman Grayson did apologize. To the 48,000 people who die each year because they have no health insurance.

Ray, what is in the bill that they are trying to push through? You haven't read it, nor has any of Congress. I doubt that you sign contracts without reading them and you shouldn't expect anyone else to.

Ray, what is in the bill that they are trying to push through? You haven't read it, nor has any of Congress. I doubt that you sign contracts without reading them and you shouldn't expect anyone else to.

So nobody has read it? Then how do you explain the 600+ amendments, hundreds of which are Republican, for a bill that nobody has read. I hear Glenn Beck needs his shoes shined.

Give me a break. You have both houses being controlled by the Democrats. It's the Democrats that can't agree. They know if they try to force it on the people they will be voted out of office. Now comes the legality of forced medical care which is headed to the Supreme Court.

Give me a break. You have both houses being controlled by the Democrats. It's the Democrats that can't agree. They know if they try to force it on the people they will be voted out of office. Now comes the legality of forced medical care which is headed to the Supreme Court.

I think it's always worthy to note that whenever Rod chimes in on healthcare he fails to mention this one small caveat. He is covered under Medicare which is the purest form of socialised medicine America has to offer. His defense is he paid his taxes into the system while he was working and deserves it. To the the rest of the tax paying uninsured (who continue to pay for his coverage by the way) too fucking bad.

If you have ten minutes to spare, here is Rep. Grayson on the Situation Room on CNN yesterday--ten minutes of iron balls, determination, and truth. This is what we thought we were getting with Obama. Finally...a politician who will truly fight for us and says what all the others only think. Finally, a politician who will condemn the lies of those who want to do nothing that will significantly help. This is a politician who recognizes that when the opposition has abandoned any notion of civility long ago, when THEY have caused the polarization, it is time to call them out. If we had only 20 Graysons in the House and Senate, we'd have a bill already.

Ray like you don't get ADAP? You guys have to do personal attacks when you know you aren't getting your way. It's amazing that you read Ray you wouldn't know it. So far all you do is put blame on the Republicans when the Democrats are to blame. HB3200 failing in the House and then the public option failed in the Senate. By whom? The Democrats.

I have a patient savings card through Opus health, which saves me spending $60.00 per month for the Epzicom. I started using that in January of this year. So it has saved me about $600.00 thus far.

Other than that, I have never used any other service. Once again, what you've paid into the system you have already received back many times over. Whats good for Rodney is not good for anyone else ? I am not that stupid.

Knock off the personal attacks guys, because the issue here is health care reform, not character assignation. Most of us have received some form of public support while being poz and just because someone also receives those benefits, does not diminish his personal viewpoint. This exchange has made me realize that America needs to find a way to move from polarization. Everyone gets so involved in playing the blame game, that nothing is getting done. Congress is bought and paid for by special interests and I don't see the public, supporting Democrats in reform and telling them that they will support them if they enact reform.

I keep waiting to see this generations Martin Luther King or Susan B. Anthony. If the polls are to be believed, a majority of Americans support health care reform, so where is the million person march in DC? Why aren't citizens flooding Congress with pledges of support for health care reform? This generation needs a civil servant to take the lead. Somebody needs to step up and help guide America in one of the greatest fights in this country's history. We have so many challenges and so few real leaders.

Sigh... Republicans use statements like "death panels" "socialism" and "big guvmint" all the time and it's somehow ok.... but the minute a Democrat does it, the heart palpitations and fluttered feathers are simply awe inspiring to behold.

No one with any smarts takes Grayson's statements at face value. However, like Republican hyperbole, it has power to make a point. And, frankly, it's about time someone used a bit of fire to friggin fight fire.

And for those people on a poz website who can't get behind universal public healthcare, then perhaps they should give up their access to ADAP & any other publically funded goodies they get. After all, what better way to prove their commitment to the idealistic notion that the marketplace is the greatest force for good in all of human history.

Logged

Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

I think you need to read the Republican "view" on meaningful healthcare reform and get back to us with the proposal. There isn't one. The Republican "view" as you call it is to defeat any meaningful healthcare reform and retain the status quo. This gooey marshmallow center you love to quote favors healthcare reform and every poll taken proves it.

Elections have consequences and the center elected Obama with an expectation that the Democrats would pass healthcare. If you believe that the Republican leadership has any intentions of negotiating in good faith makes your pie-in-the-sky outlook the problem, not the solution.

There will be no healthcare reform trying to appease Republicans. THEY DO NOT WANT HEALTHCARE REFORM. Your congressman, Eric Cantor a member of the Republican leadership constantly reinforces their "view." One side wants healthcare reform, the other side doesn't. Got it?

Oh, and Congressman Grayson did apologize. To the 48,000 people who die each year because they have no health insurance.

I try not to personalize these things, because it gets us no where -- but quite frankly I'm sick to death of your constant swipes at me and your never ending misreading of my points.

Why don't you take the time to read what I said -- I had "view" in quotes for a reason. I'm well aware of Cantor's view and his actions -- unlike you I DO read and listen to the other side with the intent of understanding EVEN IF I DISAGREE WITH THEM (have to say that out loud because you seem to thick to see it).I want health care reform as badly as you do -- my main difference from you is that I am a realist and you are a pie-in-the-sky dreamer. That's great for ideation, not so good for implementation. Of course, I'm not sure I just might be wrong -- you may simply be a disgruntled person who will never be able to see anything but your own thoughts and ideas.

The bottomline is that we are going to get nothing if we have an inability to see that healthcare reform isn't going to be a once and done.

And Ray -- yes, I know people have died due to this, but if nothing happens far more will die than if something, if even it's only a little, happens.

I should know better than to delve into this topic on this forum, there are as many closed minds here as there is in the GOP leadership.

And for those people on a poz website who can't get behind universal public healthcare, then perhaps they should give up their access to ADAP & any other publically funded goodies they get. After all, what better way to prove their commitment to the idealistic notion that the marketplace is the greatest force for good in all of human history.

I try not to personalize these things, because it gets us no where -- but quite frankly I'm sick to death of your constant swipes at me and your never ending misreading of my points.

Why don't you take the time to read what I said -- I had "view" in quotes for a reason. I'm well aware of Cantor's view and his actions -- unlike you I DO read and listen to the other side with the intent of understanding EVEN IF I DISAGREE WITH THEM (have to say that out loud because you seem to thick to see it).I want health care reform as badly as you do -- my main difference from you is that I am a realist and you are a pie-in-the-sky dreamer. That's great for ideation, not so good for implementation. Of course, I'm not sure I just might be wrong -- you may simply be a disgruntled person who will never be able to see anything but your own thoughts and ideas.

The bottomline is that we are going to get nothing if we have an inability to see that healthcare reform isn't going to be a once and done.

And Ray -- yes, I know people have died due to this, but if nothing happens far more will die than if something, if even it's only a little, happens.

I should know better than to delve into this topic on this forum, there are as many closed minds here as there is in the GOP leadership.

Mike

No you personalize and only get upset if someone disagrees with you. You're just as narrow minded as the next guy, so get off your high horse.

Here's the real difference. You talk while I work. I've worked as a volunteer for the Healthcare Reform Campaign since I lost my own healthcare insurance in 1999. I've forgotten more about healthcare reform than you will ever know. We are no pie-in-the-sky operation and have no illusions about how difficult the task of implementing healthcare. I've attended more seminars and forums than I can remember, stuffed envelopes, lobbied legislators, held rallies and protests, registered voters and spoken to the countless thousands of uninsured who come or call us begging for help because they or a family member lost their insurance. I work side by side with Republican suburban soccer moms, black ministers that believe homosexuality is a sin, hippies and every other cross section of Americana you could imagine. We have put our political differences aside because we're working toward a common goal. It's tedious and boring work at times, but it is a cause I believe in.

What's laughable is you resort to the same childish name calling between your tedious lectures on civility.

No you personalize and only get upset if someone disagrees with you. You're just as narrow minded as the next guy, so get off your high horse.

Here's the real difference. You talk while I work. I've worked as a volunteer for the Healthcare Reform Campaign since I lost my own healthcare insurance in 1999. I've forgotten more about healthcare reform than you will ever know. We are no pie-in-the-sky operation and have no illusions about how difficult the task of implementing healthcare. I've attended more seminars and forums than I can remember, stuffed envelopes, lobbied legislators, held rallies and protests, registered voters and spoken to the countless thousands of uninsured who come or call us begging for help because they or a family member lost their insurance. I work side by side with Republican suburban soccer moms, black ministers that believe homosexuality is a sin, hippies and every other cross section of Americana you could imagine. We have put our political differences aside because we're working toward a common goal. It's tedious and boring work at times, but it is a cause I believe in.

What's laughable is you resort to the same childish name calling between your tedious lectures on civility.

What are you promoting HAL? There isn't a bill yet that anyone has agreed on. So far all the bills have been defeated. They say that they can get the cost of the Health Reform from fixing Medicare and Medicaid, now when are they going to start fixing them? Everyone is for Health Reform just not a Reform pushed down everyones throat that is not well thought out and implimented.

No you personalize and only get upset if someone disagrees with you. You're just as narrow minded as the next guy, so get off your high horse.

Here's the real difference. You talk while I work. I've worked as a volunteer for the Healthcare Reform Campaign since I lost my own healthcare insurance in 1999. I've forgotten more about healthcare reform than you will ever know. We are no pie-in-the-sky operation and have no illusions about how difficult the task of implementing healthcare. I've attended more seminars and forums than I can remember, stuffed envelopes, lobbied legislators, held rallies and protests, registered voters and spoken to the countless thousands of uninsured who come or call us begging for help because they or a family member lost their insurance. I work side by side with Republican suburban soccer moms, black ministers that believe homosexuality is a sin, hippies and every other cross section of Americana you could imagine. We have put our political differences aside because we're working toward a common goal. It's tedious and boring work at times, but it is a cause I believe in.

What's laughable is you resort to the same childish name calling between your tedious lectures on civility.

Well, you are right about one thing -- I did act childish, by turning this personal. I wish I hadn't, but what's done is done.

However, you are wrong about ME being closed minded. You see, as I've said repeatedly, I WANT real reform, in fact I WANT a single-payer system. However, I know that I can't always get what I want, when I want it. So, I'm willing to get something less than what I want vs. getting nothing.

And with that, I will pull back from this thread and because you seem to be able to push my buttons to the point that I can not remain civil, I will remove that possibility and use the ignore feature and given the number of PMs that I have received, I will not be the first.

In the spirit of Rep. Grayson and with his comments as an example, it must be stated--by someone here, at long last--that it is disgraceful, shameful, upsetting, even vile, for any members of an HIV website to constantly and vigorously oppose universal health care and any and all measures to improve the complete dysfunction of U.S. health care and the unspeakable depredations of the U.S. insurance industry. It is inexcusable for these same members to constantly attack those on this site who support such measures, especially when the former never make any proposals themselves to improve the situation or are willing to settle for crumbs from the masters' tables.

Also in the spirit of Rep. Grayson and with his comments as an example, I cannot and will not apologize for the above statement. Rather, I will apologize instead to those hundreds of members who come to this site with their hundreds and hundreds of posts in fear, panic, and worry about how they will pay for the thousands of monthly dollars required for their doctors' appointments, laboratory tests, and medicines--the members with no insurance, those who cannot get insurance, those who make ten dollars above the limit for government assistance, those who are being removed from ADAP rolls, those who are forced to go on antiretroviral holidays because of pharmacy and insurance screw-ups, those with not enough funds to pay for rent and food in addition to their medical bills. All of these hundreds of members deserve an apology for coming to this site for help, which they do indeed get, yet at the same time having to witness such cruelty and cynicism from a select few.

Logged

"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

In the spirit of Rep. Grayson and with his comments as an example, it must be stated--by someone here, at long last--that it is disgraceful, shameful, upsetting, even vile, for any members of an HIV website to constantly and vigorously oppose universal health care and any and all measures to improve the complete dysfunction of U.S. health care and the unspeakable depredations of the U.S. insurance industry. It is inexcusable for these same members to constantly attack those on this site who support such measures, especially when the former never make any proposals themselves to improve the situation or are willing to settle for crumbs from the masters' tables.

Also in the spirit of Rep. Grayson and with his comments as an example, I cannot and will not apologize for the above statement. Rather, I will apologize instead to those hundreds of members who come to this site with their hundreds and hundreds of posts in fear, panic, and worry about how they will pay for the thousands of monthly dollars required for their doctors' appointments, laboratory tests, and medicines--the members with no insurance, those who cannot get insurance, those who make ten dollars above the limit for government assistance, those who are being removed from ADAP rolls, those who are forced to go on antiretroviral holidays because of pharmacy and insurance screw-ups, those with not enough funds to pay for rent and food in addition to their medical bills. All of these hundreds of members deserve an apology for coming to this site for help, which they do indeed get, yet at the same time having to witness such cruelty and cynicism from a select few.

I don't know if it's sad or funny but even the members with the most reactionary viewpoints will always be a pariah to their "friends" on the right. The same right that recoils in disgust because one dime of their taxes goes to covering some old queen that took an infected pecker or two up the ol' pooper.

What are you promoting HAL? There isn't a bill yet that anyone has agreed on. So far all the bills have been defeated. They say that they can get the cost of the Health Reform from fixing Medicare and Medicaid, now when are they going to start fixing them? Everyone is for Health Reform just not a Reform pushed down everyones throat that is not well thought out and implimented.

You lie.

"There isn't a bill yet that anyone has agreed on. So far all the bills have been defeated" This is a lie. Several committees in the House have passed bills as well as the Senate HELP Committee.

"They say that they can get the cost of the Health Reform from fixing Medicare and Medicaid, now when are they going to start fixing them? " This appears to be a malicious mis-characterization. Actual statements ("They say")have been that a portion of the cost can be raised by fixing problems in Medicare. Some of the bills do address Medicare problems, including the one raised in the Presidential debates: subsidies to insurers for Medicare Advantage plans. Not all the bills address Medicare problems, but that is only because some of the Committees do not have jurisdiction over Medicare.

"There isn't a bill yet that anyone has agreed on. So far all the bills have been defeated" This is a lie. Several committees in the House have passed bills as well as the Senate HELP Committee.

"They say that they can get the cost of the Health Reform from fixing Medicare and Medicaid, now when are they going to start fixing them? " This appears to be a malicious mis-characterization. Actual statements ("They say")have been that a portion of the cost can be raised by fixing problems in Medicare. Some of the bills do address Medicare problems, including the one raised in the Presidential debates: subsidies to insurers for Medicare Advantage plans. Not all the bills address Medicare problems, but that is only because some of the Committees do not have jurisdiction over Medicare.

Assurbnipal what bill has been past? There hasn't been one. The public option was defeated in the Senate. Now get your facts correct. They have not come up with a bill to be voted on in either house.

Assurbnipal what bill has been past? There hasn't been one. The public option was defeated in the Senate. Now get your facts correct. They have not come up with a bill to be voted on in either house.

Assiurbanipal is correct, you are, once again, wrong on the facts Rapid. The public option has only been defeated in the Senate finance committee. It has been approved in four other Senate committees, as well as the House of Representatives.

Facts are tricky things. Be careful when you're throwing them around incorrectly. Ask Rep. Joe Wilson.

Logged

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

Assurbnipal what bill has been past? There hasn't been one. The public option was defeated in the Senate. Now get your facts correct. They have not come up with a bill to be voted on in either house.

Once again mischaracterizing (maliciously ?) what was said.

You initially said "So far all the bills have been defeated." That was a lie.

Are you perhaps unaware of the meaning of "defeated"? (Hey, three syllables. ) "Defeated" would mean the bills had been introduced and voted down. They were introduced but were not voted down. Instead the bills are in the process of passage -- every committee that needs to act except for Senate Finance has already produced a bill and Senate Finance is expected to produce a bill in the next week or so.

What is it that you don't understand? Legislation? The public option was defeated in the Senate. There has not been a vote on a bill in the House. There is a bill from committee but it hasn't been voted upon. Until the bill is voted on in the House and passed it can't be considered in the Senate. Maybe you need a refresher course in US Government.

What is it that you don't understand? Legislation? The public option was defeated in the Senate. There has not been a vote on a bill in the House. There is a bill from committee but it hasn't been voted upon. Until the bill is voted on in the House and passed it can't be considered in the Senate. Maybe you need a refresher course in US Government.

Here's the lastest update. I doubt you'll read it, but hopefully it might help with your confusion of the topic.

What is it that you don't understand? Legislation? The public option was defeated in the Senate. There has not been a vote on a bill in the House. There is a bill from committee but it hasn't been voted upon. Until the bill is voted on in the House and passed it can't be considered in the Senate. Maybe you need a refresher course in US Government.

"The public option was defeated in the Senate" -- This is at best a half truth. In the Senate there are two committees with jurisdiction over the bill. The HELP committee passed a version out of committee that includes a public option. The Finance committee is working on its version of the bill -- recent amendments to add a public option to that committee's version did not pass. It is likely that the bill that passes the finance committee will not include a public option but the end result for the Senate as a whole may or may not have a public plan in it. (Frankly, as I've pointed out before, I think we can live without the public option in the legislation -- Switzerland does ok without one -- but the bill would do a better job of holding down costs in the long run if it had one).

" There has not been a vote on a bill in the House. There is a bill from committee but it hasn't been voted upon." -- There are 3 committees with jurisdiction in the House. Each has produced a bill -- the results need to be merged and then voted on in the House.

"Until the bill is voted on in the House and passed it can't be considered in the Senate. " -- This is untrue Only revenue bills (and by tradition, appropriations bills) must originate in the House. You may find the following helpful if you lwould like to learn more about how our US system of government works http://thomas.loc.gov/home/lawsmade.toc.html

"Maybe you need a refresher course in US Government. " Sorry bud -- but I spent 25 years in jobs where tracking this type of bill was part of my responsibilities. Next time try an easier target.

So far the the house does not have enough members to pass any Healthcare bills that have been put forward in committees. HB3200 has not been voted on in the house. Oh by the way Grayson apologized for his ignorant Holocaust remarks to the Anti-Defamation League.

"The text of Grayson's statement, e-mailed to reporters, showed the word beginning with a lower-case 'h,' not as a proper noun referring to the systematic execution of Jews by Nazis.... 'I don't believe that the use of the word "holocaust" is sacrosanct. There's a plain-English meaning,' said [Jewish] Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.)....'I think Congressman Grayson was using hyperbolic language because this has been a debate that has been dominated by the extremes.' Rep. Jared Polis, a 34-year-old Jewish Democrat from Colorado, approached the question the same way. 'There have been many tragic holocausts,' Polis said."

What Grayson said: "I apologize to the dead and their families that we haven't voted sooner to end this holocaust in America."

FYI, Grayson is Jewish.

Logged

"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

So far the the house does not have enough members to pass any Healthcare bills that have been put forward in committees. HB3200 has not been voted on in the house. Oh by the way Grayson apologized for his ignorant Holocaust remarks to the Anti-Defamation League.

Gee Ro-Ro, what do you think the children and grandchildren of Nancy Pelosi would think when you posted this charming nugget about Nancy Pelosi? People that live in glass houses...You aren't alone. I saw it too. Be one of the best things that could happen, besides her plastic surgeon slipping and cutting her throat. ~RapidRod

You aren't alone. I saw it too. Be one of the best things that could happen, besides her plastic surgeon slipping and cutting her throat.

After reading this comment, I had to find it, just to be sure it was real. Sadly it is real and it is one of the most hateful things I have ever read. While we might have disagreements over policy, I have never seen anyone in this forum, suggest that someone die, because of views they did not like. Rod, I believe you own this forum an apology for this comment and you should certainly refrain from criticizing others for powerful speech, without the suggestion of someone dying. I believe the word "hypocrite" comes to mind.

Really Joe, I don't believe you ever mention a thing about the remarks Hal made about my nephew getting killed in Iraq.

Rod this is the last time you will repeat this despicable lie. Produce the quote, thread, post or PM where I said this about your nephew. You have said this in print before and the mods removed it because they knew it was a character assassinating lie, and you know it. In fact I challenge you or anyone else to produce a single post of mine where I have wished the death of anyone. Anyone that knows my posting history knows that I have argued vehemently against the war in Iraq and have mourned the loss of life it has caused. Including your nephew. You are beyond loathsome.