Re: bugs with museums

Hello Josselin, I "fixed" the page to edit museums. I put "fixed" in quotes because I actually turned off part of the form validation for mapping addresses, since it's got a bug I haven't been able to figure out yet. But it should work without problems now.

Sorry for being away the last few days; I will have more time to work on things over the next week.

Re: bugs with museums

Hello Chris,I spotted another minor bug: when I enter a new museum, its hosting country vanishes. I therefore need to edit the page and link it again with the country.I think this is the reason why so many museums aren't properly located.Josselin

Re: bugs with museums

Hello Josselin, I tried setting an option to force Google Maps to use English, but I can't test it, since Google would try to present in English for me anyway. Can you try editing or creating a couple of museums in non-English speaking countries to see if it's now defaulting to English?

Re: bugs with museums

Re: bugs with museums

I have checked out the National Museums and Art Galleries for Wales (Cardiff). As this museum is located in Wales it is identified by the Welsh name of Amgueddfa Cymru (which is the National Museum of Wales). The Welsh name is more appropriate on this website, as this is used for museums in other countries, e.g. musee de....museo del Prado, Galleria degli Uffizi etc.

I would like to transfer the 42 works displayed under 'National Museums and Art Galleries of Wales to 'Amgueddfa Cymru - National Museum of Wales'. With one entry for the national museum in Cardiff, instead of the current two, should eliminate any confusion as to which gallery is viewed.

If it is impossible to remove the entry for National Museums and Art Galleries Wales - Cardiff, I can add a note on that page to be re-directed to Amgueddfa Cymru - National Museum of Wales.

Re: bugs with museums

kohn1fox wrote:

I have checked out the National Museums and Art Galleries for Wales (Cardiff). As this museum is located in Wales it is identified by the Welsh name of Amgueddfa Cymru (which is the National Museum of Wales). The Welsh name is more appropriate on this website, as this is used for museums in other countries, e.g. musee de....museo del Prado, Galleria degli Uffizi etc.

I would like to transfer the 42 works displayed under 'National Museums and Art Galleries of Wales to 'Amgueddfa Cymru - National Museum of Wales'. With one entry for the national museum in Cardiff, instead of the current two, should eliminate any confusion as to which gallery is viewed.

If it is impossible to remove the entry for National Museums and Art Galleries Wales - Cardiff, I can add a note on that page to be re-directed to Amgueddfa Cymru - National Museum of Wales.

Are Rosselin and Chris happy with this?

Graham

Don't bother to reallocate all the entries, Chris will merge the museums when he comes back.

Re: bugs with museums

Chris

I have been editing a few of the more obscure museums with the town as it is useful to know where a museum exists from the artwork page without having to go directly to the museum. With place names in the title this is not a problem. However some of the museum editing doesn't work (for a strange reason). There are several but I will list three that do not accept my edit:

Albright-Knox (Buffalo, NY) - when I edit "- Buffalo, NY" it doesn't accept although the map is correct;

Kelvingrove Museum and Art Gallery (Glasgow) - it shows a different map of Glasgow! When I edit " - Glasgow" it doesn't accept it - I have even typed in the correct address but the map still doesn't identify it . Perhaps there is a way of removing the map?Musee d'Unterlinden (Colmar). The same problem. I edit the title with "- Colmar" and it doesn't accept it.

Re: bugs with museums

Chris

I entered a new museum: Derby Museums and Art Gallery but when I checked the listings for museums, it was not shown. I then entered it again as Derby Museum and Art Gallery (without the 's' as I assumed it didn't accept the plural). Again it was not listed. I closed the application and then tried entering an image. Both museum listings are now shown.

You need to delete the entry 'Derby Museum and Art Gallery' or give me the permission to delete. Both entries are the same but only one has works listed (Derby Museums (as plural).

Re: bugs with museums

kohn1fox wrote:

Chris

I have been editing a few of the more obscure museums with the town as it is useful to know where a museum exists from the artwork page without having to go directly to the museum. With place names in the title this is not a problem. However some of the museum editing doesn't work (for a strange reason). There are several but I will list three that do not accept my edit:

Albright-Knox (Buffalo, NY) - when I edit "- Buffalo, NY" it doesn't accept although the map is correct;

Kelvingrove Museum and Art Gallery (Glasgow) - it shows a different map of Glasgow! When I edit " - Glasgow" it doesn't accept it - I have even typed in the correct address but the map still doesn't identify it . Perhaps there is a way of removing the map?Musee d'Unterlinden (Colmar). The same problem. I edit the title with "- Colmar" and it doesn't accept it.

There are also others that I can list as and when I find them.

Another entry I tried to make is for the Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica. I corrected the spelling and added ' - Rome' to identify easily where it is located, but the screen would not accept it.

Re: bugs with museums

It is not a bug, but location of British museums on the website can either be in the UK or in each country of the UK - depending on the user's choice; this confusion also exists for British artists. I think it would be more accurate to display them as English or Scottish, etc.

Re: bugs with museums

Hello Josselin and Graham, Just so you know, I am back from my work trip and ready to dig into things again.

A note on British people and their respective countries: Britain is a rare case where we have "countries within a country" which obviously makes it a challenge to categorise people. I live in the UK, and I know that attitudes here vary. For example, most Welsh people I know do not mind being called "British" instead of "Welsh"; however calling a Scottish person "British" may result in a fight! :-)

To be absolutely correct in a formal sense (i.e., what nationality would the U.N. use for a person?), this is what we need to do:Before the Act of Union in May 1707 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707), there was no "Great Britain," and consequently nobody was "British". People with birth dates before that should be referred to by their respective countries only. So someone born in Scotland in 1703 is Scottish but not British. Someone born in 1710 in Scotland is technically "British" though they wouldn't use that term themselves.

Now, the Act of Union only united England, Scotland, and Wales. Northern Ireland doesn't get added in until the Acts of Union 1800, which take effect January 1 of 1801. So, someone born in northern Ireland in 1798 is Irish only, but someone born in northern Ireland in 1805 is British, though again they wouldn't call themselves "British".

So, that's the history, but what does it mean for our site? I think we need to be historically correct, so eventually we need to use those two dates to write the correct labels:

Those are the labels that should eventually be standardised across the site - they will be correct, while provided the best useful information. This means to get the labels right we'll have to have birth dates in place for people, and also have their birth country tagged (i.e., not just "UK").

For searches, we'll be more lenient, so people don't get upset if their search doesn't work. Consider someone searching for all "British" art between 1750 and 1790. Before 1770, there is technically no "Britain" at all, but the average person doesn't know that; what they mean is probably "all art by people born within the current UK borders". So we'll translate that search to include Scotland, Ireland, England, and Wales, and maybe provide a historical note with the search results.

There are some other countries with similar challenges (I think that the term "Dutch" i similarly weird with some of the islands in the Atlantic), but this is the biggest case.

For now, think of the above as my "template," and don't worry too much about it until I start implementing this. For now, you can use whichever term you like - British or Scottish for example. When we get the tools in place, we'll do a review and make sure everything fits in the new system.

Re: bugs with museums

Re: bugs with museums

Hello Josselin:

I have taken the step of transferring two works located under Nationa Trust (Polesden Lacey) to the National Trust (general page). There are dozens of National Trust properties (probably at least 100) scattered throughout the UK. It seems pointless to open a new 'museum' for every property. They all belong to the National Trust, which receives a UK Government grant and admissions to the general public.

Instead, I have notated where the work of art is housed under the general category of National Trust.

I note that there is a separate page for National Trust (Waddesden Manor) - Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire. But as there are several works in this category I have left that as a separate 'museum'.

Re: bugs with museums

Hello Graham, I precisely wanted to propose the same arrangement about the National Trust. I did not realized at first that It would have been very long to create a new page for each dependency. Is it the same organisation with the English Heritage?(I also created the page for Waddesden Manor.)

Re: bugs with museums

No, English Heritage is different. Most of the National Trust properties are former stately homes that have now been acquired by the NT (as a Government subsidiary - a little like the many chateau in France).

I don't think there are a great number of English Heritage properties that contain nearly as many works of art as those in the NT.

I think Waddesden Manor can remain, since it has an important collection of French 18th C works - it belonged to the Rothschilds (the building is 19th C but in the French Renaissance style).

If you add further NT works, perhaps you could add where they belong as I have been doing?

Re: bugs with museums

There is confusion over two museums in San Francisco - both under the collective title of Fine Arts Museums. They are de Young Memorial Museum (American and Asiatic works) and California Palace of the Legion of Honor (European works).

European works have been entered under de Young. I have transferred these works to the California Palace of the Legion of Honor (of which there were only 3 entries).

Re: bugs with museums

kohn1fox wrote:

Hello Josselin:

I have taken the step of transferring two works located under Nationa Trust (Polesden Lacey) to the National Trust (general page). There are dozens of National Trust properties (probably at least 100) scattered throughout the UK. It seems pointless to open a new 'museum' for every property. They all belong to the National Trust, which receives a UK Government grant and admissions to the general public.

Do you agree with this arrangement?

The same problem exists for artworks hosted in churches and other places which aren't museums. For instance, this David's work is displayed in Saint-Vincent church - Mâcon:http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/detail.php?ID=65293And it is obviously the only work that can be listed with this place. Do we need to create a new entry for each of these places? It would considerably expand the list of the museums which is already filled with "one artwork places"..

Re: bugs with museums

Josselin wrote:

kohn1fox wrote:

Hello Josselin:

I have taken the step of transferring two works located under Nationa Trust (Polesden Lacey) to the National Trust (general page). There are dozens of National Trust properties (probably at least 100) scattered throughout the UK. It seems pointless to open a new 'museum' for every property. They all belong to the National Trust, which receives a UK Government grant and admissions to the general public.

Do you agree with this arrangement?

The same problem exists for artworks hosted in churches and other places which aren't museums. For instance, this David's work is displayed in Saint-Vincent church - Mâcon:http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/detail.php?ID=65293And it is obviously the only work that can be listed with this place. Do we need to create a new entry for each of these places? It would considerably expand the list of the museums which is already filled with "one artwork places"..

Josselin

I am inclined to agree with minor works but there are exceptions: I think it depends on the importance of the work - examples being some Venetian churches that hold important Titians and Tintorettos or Bavo Cathedral in Ghent that holds possibly the most prized van Eyck. Another example might be a rare Grunewald (The Stuppach Madonna) that is housed in the tiny church at Stuppach in Germany. It can be useful if, for example, students or researchers (or anyone for that matter) study this website to ascertain where some major works are housed.

Then the problem lies with what do we classify as 'important' justifying its own entry and 'secondary' that could be entered under 'private collection' (with an annotation explaining where the work is housed).

I see from the listings that there are numerous 'museums'(?) in the USA that are unknown to most people and contain just one entry which is by someone unknown to most people! That seems a little extreme and unwarranted.

Re: bugs with museums

On the same theme as above, I entered a work by John Constable on 22 August that is held in a small church in Essex, England. I placed it under 'unknown' and the added where it is located. Not ideal, but I didn't think the church warranted its own entry.