Thanks for being so patient with me on this report. I actually planned to run it yesterday, but that “Why” report just had to come first.

I was taken to school on the Legends blowback CO2 BB pistol — both by this report and also by several of you readers. As a result, I studied the P08/Luger design since the last time I reported; and I now know at least 1 percent of what there is to know about the pistol. Seriously, I always knew the P08 was a complex handgun, but I had no idea how complex before studying up for this report!

Writing about the new Umarex Legends blowback P.08 caused me to research the firearm.

For starters, after having owned 3 P08s and shooting hundreds of shots in them, I was surprised to learn that one objection to the pistol back at the beginning of the 20th century was the fact that the toggle link obscures the shooter’s line of sight, however briefly. I’ve never seen that! I’ve seen the toggle rise when other people were shooting the pistol next to me, but never once have I seen that link in my own sight picture! Well, today’s accuracy day, and I can tell you for sure that I have seen the link now! More on that in a bit — let’s get to the test.

The test
I shot the pistol from 5 meters using a rested 2-hand hold. I’m using a monopod Leapers provided that isn’t quite ready for production but will be soon. I hope to use it for field target and also for some big-game hunting I’m planning to do. I’ll keep you advised; but as there’s nothing on the market yet, I don’t want to show it before it’s finalized.

Daisy Premium Grade BBs
I installed a fresh CO2 cartridge and loaded the magazine with 10 Daisy Premium Grade BBs for the first test. I’d forgotten how light the trigger is’ but since I was holding the pistol rested, the sights never wavered. I used a 6 o’clock hold on the 10-meter rifle bull. Ten BBs landed in a 1.238-inch group that’s centered just below the bull and to the right. Eight of those BBs went into just 0.55 inches, which is outright astounding!

Ten Daisy Premium Grade BBs are in 1.238 inches at 5 meters, but 8 of them are in 0.55 inches. Remarkable!

This was when I first noticed the toggle link in my line of sight. I think the action on this pistol is slow enough for me to see this, while the firearm operates so fast that I never do. Also, I have to say this pistol recoils more than almost any BB pistol with blowback that I can remember. That toggle rising up is what does it, I think.

Crosman Copperhead BBs
Next up were Crosman Copperhead BBs. These BBs opened up to a group size of 1.833 inches. The hold for them was just as good, and there were no pulled shots called.

Ten Crosman Copperhead BBs landed 1.833 inches at 5 meters. There’s no real tendency for shot placement within this group, except that 5 of the BBs did land at roughly the same point of impact as the Daisys. Those 5 are in 0.431 inches.

Avanti Precision Ground Shot
This is where the test took a strange turn. I expected Avanti Precision Ground Shot would take the day, but that’s not what happened. In fact, just the opposite. It turned in the worst group by a wide margin! Ten BBs made a group that measures 3.536 inches between centers. Not only did some of the BBs miss the target paper, one almost missed the cardboard backer!

What a surprise! Ten Avanti Precision Ground Shot went into 3.536 inches at 5 meters. In fact, there are 3 points of impact in this target. Yes, one BB hit at the extreme bottom of the cardboard.

What happened?
I think the Avanti shot are a little too large for this barrel. Some are sliding out normally, while others may be sticking just slightly. That’s the only explanation I can come up with that made this superior shot perform so poorly.

Umarex Precision Steel BBs
The last BBs I tried were Umarex Precision Steel BBs. Ten of them landed in 1.126 inches. That is the best 10-shot group of the session, but there’s also something else to note. While the BBs are strung out very vertically, look at how tight they are horizontally! And also note that they struck the target on the line of aim. Yes, they’re up and down, but all are in line with the center of the target — and I was holding the sights at 6 o’clock.

Ten Avanti Umarex Precision Steel BBs went into 1.126 inches at 5 meters. Look at how tight this group is hroizontally.

Evaluation
I think the verticality of the groups was caused by my aiming error. The P.08 has what the Germans call a Perlkorn front sight blade. We would call it a pointed blade. It’s a pyramidal blade that tapers at the top. It’s difficult to align that point with the top of the rear notch. You’ve seen me shoot other handguns better than this when their sights were more precise. But these sights are true to the P.08 design, and they belong on the gun.

I think this BB pistol is a lot more realistic and fun than just about any BB pistol I’ve tested in the past year. Maybe it’s on par with the Dan Wesson BB revolver. If you’re fascinated by the Luger design — get one. If you like nice triggers on air pistols — get one. If you like BB pistols that are accurate — get one.

In fact, get several. But don’t think you’ll get this one. It’s staying with me!

82 thoughts on “Legends blowback P.08 CO2 pistol: Part 3”

It never ceases to amuse me to see how different ammo perform in airguns. It plays 50% in everything about how a gun shoots, I would say, and this just goes to show you never can assume the ammos any good til you try it. Doing pellet testing right now its all over my mind so that’s what I take from it, I have brief co2 bb pistol “hiatus’s”, but the luger never got me all riled up. If I could have a monstrous pellet collection, Id take that over this fine replica, and probably the real thing as well.

RDNA
I found something out today and this just may fall into the same category of testing your doing.

I got that Hatsan 95 .25 cal. break barrel gun with the vortex gas piston. I mounted the 3-9 power scope that came with it.

I started testing some pellets and found the gun grouped the best when I held it tight. This was bench resting it. If I did the good ole artillery hold that works well with my other break barrel guns that have and had. Well the shots were all over the place. Like 3 groups at 50 yards and worse.

I tightened up to 2″ by holding the gun tight.

But I found something out about myself. I thought all this time that I was following through with my shot. I was watching the target after the shot went off but I would start relaxing my hold pretty much as soon as the trigger was pulled.

I then shot the gun with the pellet that was doing the best which was the 31 grn. Barcudas and held the gun with the same hold for a few seconds after I saw the pellet hit the target. Bingo a 1.125″ center to center group. That was the best group withe the rest at about 1.300″ center to center.

So I mounted that Bushnell scope that was on my HW50s on it tonight when I got home. Its been doing .700″ center to center groups on the HW50s @ 50 yards. So that should tell me a story tomorrow.

I don’t think the 392 would care much for pumping 20 times too many more times but a lot of large property owners want them gone especially in the eastern parts of the state and the ArkLaTex(Arkansas,Louisianna,Texas border). I am Central and sure do miss the woods.

They say they are in Missouri now. I drive over there from Illinois everyday and haven’t seen any yet. But I have seen coyotes over there.

And no wild hogs in Illinois yet. And we got woods and fields all over the place in my area. Illinois better be on the ball this time is all I got to say and let us shoot the things before they get out of hand.

Its funny you mention that cause just yesterday I tried pulling tight on it and saw some differences, when I held loosely the gun is very front end heavy but has a crap trigger (still) so it seems the trigger is jerking the gun with even a smooth pull, the back end being so light it wants to fulcrum the heaviness in my forehand. If I pull the forehand and push the stock good onto the shoulder and just put a little palm pressure there isn’t all the jumping and the groups start touching at ten, 15 and almost 20 yds, but that’s where the pellet testing comes in, Id like to see touching at 20 everytime and 1″ at 50yds.. I got the 22np to print a 3/8ths at 20 more often then not, but that was much easier to hold… it the trigger smoothed out… one effects the other I guess.

RDNA
That Hatsan 95 with the nitro piston in .25 is a thumper. I think you would like that gun with all the talk you do about a big cal. break barrels. This gun has the 2 stage adjustable Quattro trigger and I like them alot. My Hatsan 44QE pcp gun has the trigger also. Both guns the trigger is very light and a very distinct crisp release. Absolutely no bumping or twisting the gun with the trigger.

What I was seeing with my follow through was the gun seems to be still moving when the pellet exits the barrel. And if I have a positive hold on the gun and not let it move till I’m sure the pellet is done down range and hit the target its like I’m pointing my finger at the pellet and watching it hit where I point.

But if I let the gun just rest freely with the stock on the rest my poi raises about 5” and if I shoot a group of 10 shots the target looks like a shot gun blast. Hold the gun tight and not let it move at all till the shot hits and the groups came back to something I could live with. But I think it will improve a bit more with this other scope. I’m predicting that I should get the gun to hold at least 1” center to center groups at 50 yards.

All I plan on using the gun for is knocking some targets around the yard. I was shooting my synthetic stock .25 cal. Marauder at some 2×4 targets that I made and had at different places in the yard and it was blowing right through them. So I was thinking this slower fps Hatsan .25 cal. will hit them and knock them around is what I’m hoping. My.177 cal. guns just hit and penetrate and give the board a little bump. I want to hit it with Hatsan and make it go flying.

Gunfun1
If you can find a position where your natural relaxed hold puts the gun on target you don’t have to hold a stressed hold for a prolonged time through the shot. That will make you more consistent.

I have had guns that I shot best held tight in the beginning but as I shot them more I got my best results with an artillery type hold.

David
I do know what you mean. I had that Benjamin Trail NP XL in .25 cal. It was a bit tricky to shoot.

And I’m probably not explaining the best either. I am relaxed with the hold. I set my forward hand on the stock of the gun and hold the gun from lifting or going side to side. My trigger hand holds the gun also enough to keep it stable. I pull the gun in to my shoulder a bit and let that arm rest downwards to kind of lock the stock into my cheek and shoulder.

There is no stress its actually pretty natural. The gun and myself are comfortably rested. I just found that I was coming of my hold to quick. I will always wait till my shot hits the target before I move. But I guess from shooting the PCP guns that I have become to relaxed when I shoot and don’t worry as much about my follow through.

I do know I’m going to pay more attention to my hold with my PCP guns to see if it will help them even more on their groups if I continue the hold longer.

I was always sure that those who complained about the toggle becoming visible while shooting were imagining it. One famous gun magazine writer complained about it, saying he could see the logo on the toggle link as it passed through his field of view. I knew he was making it up, as the logo is on the front link, and therefore blocked from view while firing. One test of the Luger, they timed the complete toggle cycle at around 1/100th of a second. I can see why it would be visible on this version. The CO2 operation would have to be slower…

I just got one,But I had one problem The gun worked for only two clips then gun would exhaust
the entire co2 after only four or five shots.I went thru almost ten co2’s before I realized there
was nothing I’d be able to do,I also bought an extra clip and it did the same thing.
I called Pyramid and I told them about, but I said I like the gun and would rather exchange it and
hope that I just had a fluke.When it worked it was great.
I also bought the Makarov Ultra which was flawless and the full auto Broomhandle which worked
fine and is awesome.This was the first time in all of the years I have done business with Pyramid
that I have ever had to return a gun.I know their Cust. service is one of the best around
they sent Fed-X to my door the next day for the exchange.The all; metal is a nice touch
and I can’t wait to get the gun and hope wih my luck”I had the the only dud in the line.

I think it depends on the timing of the blink in relation to location of the toggle, sometimes when I blink the last image seems to be recorded in my memory I try to keep it from happening until the target has been struck but that’s not always the case and can be helpful diagnosing shooting issues.

You reminded me of a psych experiment in which we used a tachistoscope to flash words at observers to see how fast they could recognize them. Some people could recognize words in as little a one-thousandth second. Our machine didn’t go faster than that, so we never knew how much better they might have been.

Reb
Is that like photographic memory? I’m very good at that. And that’s how I was in high school also. Its like I could vision the chalk board with the teachers writing on it at when it was test time.

My science teacher did a experiment one time where he wrote a sentence on the chalk board I still remember the sentence (This not Rocket science) and then drew a few objects like circles, triangles a square and a smiley face in different places. Then wrote a few things like Co2, H2o and N2o.

He took a picture of it with a popular at that time Polaroid camera. Then erased it. Then wrote some other stuff on the chalk board then took a picture and erased it.

He then told us to take a piece of paper and draw and write down every thing that was written on the board the first time the same way he did it.

People had things from the first and second things he wrote on the board on their paper. I was the only one that had it correct. Plus there was a chalk mark that was about 2” long from him setting the chalk down in the tray where he bumped the board and made that mark. He asked me what it was and I told him. Sure enough it was in the first picture and he erased it when he did the second drawing on the chalk board. That mark wasn’t in the second picture. I got a (A) for the day. 🙂

Yeah, remember after the second hospital stay I said it was coming back. I had key elements memorized off the huge Periodic Table of Elements we had on the wall(atomic weight,number and so on as well as where on the chart they were located i.e. classification)

Reb
People at work as me if I have seen something when they are looking for it. I can explain to the T where It was at and what was by it and around it. They always ask me if they can’t find something.

Its because I can picture it in my mind. I’m like that when I work on something or if I want to know how the air and gas is flowing through a carburetor or how it mix’s or how the valves and camshaft are moving in the engine. I can visualise where numbers are stamped on blocks and heads. I do it all the time at work when I rebuild hydraulic control valves. I can visualize the part sheet that has the o-ring and seal numbers on it the check valve numbers and so on. I can tell some body where a picture or diagram is located in a manual at work and most of the time what page it was on. Its not that I try to remember it. Its just that I can recall it and picture it.

But you know what. Ask me what I had for lunch a day or so ago and I couldn’t tell you. My short term memory is terrible.

Ranchers in the ArkLaTex are at least partially responsible for using these animals to clear undergrowth without getting themselves snakebit- started decades ago and when they start showing up in yards and suburban areas it’s too late to use firearms, by then the city has to pay animal control. Nip it in the bud! Check out your local river bottoms, that’s probably the first place they’ll go. Take the sows they’re not only better eating but they can throw massive broods.

How come Umarex produced the non-blowback version and then this one? I bought the original and now will ave to get one of these too (when they get ot the UK)! The continuing fascination of the PO8 is remarkable, I suppose in part its because it, and the C96, were the only two ‘wierd’ i.e. early non-Browning automatics (with some minor exceptions) to make it into the modern world.

Webley-Fosberry, now you’re talking! Little known story about this. WInston Churchill of course famously carried a Mauser C96 in the Sudan and at the charge of the 17th/21st lancers. However in WW1 he may have been more patriotic. General Edward Spears recounts a story of an incident at Vimy Ridge where Churchill was showing off his sidearm, a ‘complicated automatic revolver’ when it went off, discharging all 6 cylinders in succession. Churchill grabbed the lanyard and held it at arms length while dancing with .455 rounds hitting the ground all around; while Spears (much to Churchill’s disgust) collapsed in gales of laughter. Another Churchillian escape…..

I completely agree with you on the Webley Fosbery ,I had to look up the Mars, which appears to be reincarnated in all firearm auto pistols and some rifles but I don’t think the blow-forward design ever stood a chance in a handgun, maybe artillery. It was an interesting concept but way too heavy in the recoil dept.

Lugers are neat. I have a DWM date stamped 1910. It has all matching numbers except the magazine which is also from the same era (Wood Base). When I shoot it I mostly use lead bullet handloads. In difference to it’s age I really don’t shoot it often. The Legends P08 would be a nice companion piece! (BTW 1910 was the first year Lugers were date stamped.)

A DWM from 1910 is one of the finest Lugers ever made. DWM was the top maker and before WW II they really put the hand work into the guns. My Erfurt was made in 1917 and suffers because of being made by the government at a time when the Germans were losing the war. The forging and machining is much rougher than on your pistol.

Still, mine shoots with 100 percent reliability and is quite accurate. I also use cast bullet loads that are just about the same as American factory loads. They are much gentler than some foreign subgun cartridges.

The beater I owned many years ago soured me on the Luger design, but the one I have now has given me a new appreciation of just how wonderful this pistol is.

There is so much to learn about the P.08 design and history that I won’t ever be an expert. Not enough time left for that. But I can certainly learn enough to appreciate the small things this gun did for the history of firearms. Things like grip safeties and delayed blowback through over-center toggle-lock pivot pins.

I think the Trapdoor Springfield rifle and the M1 Carbine are equally interesting as the P.08. Both had as much development put into them.

For example, I just learned that the Germans tried to make Lugers with diecast frames! I knew the M1 Carbine program did something similar, but isn’t that fascinating? Neither program succeeded, but isn’t it interesting they both tried?

I guess they’ll try anything to save a buck. I have shot firearms with alloy frames and they are much lighter but die-cast aluminum seems a little sketchy, it just wears too fast under heavy loads and requires frequent lubrication.

Interesting. I didn’t know about the attempts at die cast frames. I do have a Trap Door Springfield made in 1884. I have used it for single shot long range events for Cowboy Action Shooting. I also have a M-1 Carbine, an Inland, with all the early war parts. I don’t shoot it a bunch but I did use it in a Three Gun Match a few years ago. I had a good day, beat the tricked out AR’s. 🙂

The reason I mentioned the Trapdoor, is it uses a similar system of off-axis cams to lock the breechblock when the gun fires. You can shake the rear of most Trapdoor breechblocks from side to side just a little when the breech is closed. That is by design. The cam that closes the breech engages a cutout at the rear of the receiver when the gun fires, causing the breechblock to dive down and lock up solid with the receiver.

My results were pretty similar to yours, and they were not what I expected. I usually try Avanti Precision Ground shot for the first magazine of BBs in a brand new BB gun, because I want my very first shooting experience with it to be as positive a one as possible, regardless of the much higher cost of that ammo.

Well there was nothing precise about the Avantis! They sprayed all over. For my backyard backstop, I use extra large pizza boxes (don’t ask — suffice to say we come by far too many of them) jammed with phone books. My target caught a few of the shots, but the majority was all over the pizza box! If I had bothered to measure it would have been spmrthing like 15 inches. (This is 20 shots at 20 feet.)

I put in Copperheads and got a 3.5 inch group at 20 feet! Copperheads! TWENTY shots! And this was a full magazine,

Then I tried Daisy Premium Grade BBs. These were so much larger I found it best to load three BBs at a time, by hand. I expected amazing accuracy, for if those little Copperheads could do what they did, well . . ., well, I was wrong! The tight-fitting Daisy Premium BBs did just about the same as the Copperheads, roughly 3.5 inches for 20 shots at 20 feet. I copnsider that very accurate for a smoothbore pistol.

Why did I shoot 20 shots for each BB? Because once you start shooting this pistol, you absolutely cannot stop! The feel, the “pointability,” the light trigger, the hard snap of the blowback. I went through CO2 cartridge after CO2 cartridge after CO2 cartridge. I probably shot about 400 rounds that first time, giggling like a little kid the whole while. My backyard had tiny bits of cardboard and phonebook blowing around it for days. As I put a dollop of Pellgunopil on the tip of every single Powerlet (well over a dozen of ’em), after a while there was probably petroleum mist coming out of the barrel.

I found that I usually got somewhere between 57 and 63 good shots per cart, which given the blowback of this little cutie is pretty darn good. Sometimes I’d get much less, perhaps 52 shots, but those were the times I just shot out whole magazines in 8-10 seconds!

I should point out that the reason I went through so many CO2 carts was because the first three dumped all their gas after the first couple of shots as I am left-handed and the blowback caused my trigger finger to brush the very sensitive mag release button. So I probably got 400 or so shots out of perhaps 8 or 9 CO2 carts.

The die cast framed Lugers really show off the variations of this gun. One of the reasons, it is so popular with collectors. They are like coins, you will never have one of each, so just having a tiny amount can give you a sense of accomplishment. I see you picked up some books, that’s great. If you get a chance get “LUGER” by John Walters. It is by far my favorite Luger book. The amount of information it provides is awesome…

Those complaining about the toggle blocking their line of sight, seem to ignore its advantage. If watch a people shooting Browning slide design based handguns, you will see the slide lock back on the last shot and watch as the shooter takes aim and squeeze only to realize they are out of ammo. The toggle locking open on the last shot, blocks your sights and you know right away to reload. Many of the Lugers features have been adopted by other handguns. Army ask Colt to use a magazine release like the Luger on the 1911. The Glock uses the grip angle, the striker firing and using the extractor to indicate a chambered round. I’m pretty sure we will never see another handgun as interesting as the Luger…

Edith, I’m not trying to “pester” you as I know I’ve asked this once before. But, did you ever “suggest” to PA that they put a “blow back” link in, like they do for repeater, C02, gas spring and so on? There are more and more blow backs with no doubt a lot more to come. Just wishing as it would be much easier to find them. Thanks, Bradly

I was told that you can find all the blowback guns now. Search for blowback, and you’ll get this page. Then, you can click on the “Blowback Airguns” link at the top of the page and find just the pellet/BB guns with blowback.

Interesting results! The most interesting think is that you got good results with Crosman Copperhead BBs, but my Copperhead groups were 3 inches. You got a bad group with Avanti, but I got a 1 1/4 inch group on 9 out of 10 shots. I agree with you though about the Umarex BBs because I also got a group about 1 inch on 8 out of 10 shots.

Now I wonder what I have. It’s a 9mm luger with ‘1940’ on the barrel, and among other things a very tiny eagle on it. I also have a P-38 with the same tiny eagle on it, and there’s a nazi-emblem dagger in the same case. I think these were things my grandfather brought back from WW2.

No, they’re very dark wood, i think. There’s no letters, from the barrel where 1940 appears on top, there’s (on the toggle) a tiny 00, then a larger 42 turned sideways, then another 00. Actually, there are a lot of 00’s found all over it, even on the rear sight.

I think you have one made by Mauser. The 42 on the toggle is a Mauser code for the period 1939 through 1942. It may not be the original toggle for the gun, though I cannot say that for sure. The wood grips are correct, though black plastic would also be right.

I’m sorry, I left it out, the tigger IS blued, still perfectly shiny. Maybe I’ll get one of the P.08 BB guns because it doesn’t look like this one’s a shooting sort. It’s in great condition, as is the P-38. I did notice that the lugar mag has P.08 written on it at the base, interestingly.

Just received and unpacked the Luger blowback. I had a 9mm Luger years ago and wanted to see how the field stripping worked. I removed the magazine, side plate, and flipped the disassemble handle and it came apart (and went back together) just like the 9mm Luger, I then noticed an o-ring or seal on the floor. My first thought is that it went between the CO2 capsule and the gun…but it does not fit??? Besides, there is already a built-in white plastic seal in place to receive the CO2 cartridge. Anybody have this happen?

I just spoke with Dan at PA customer service about the third replacement gun I received. Yes, that is not a typo, I have tried three of these P08 pistols in as many weeks, and all have failed. The first one would jam if you placed more than 19 bbs in the magazine. The follower would open just far enough for the last bb to become wedged between the loading port and the follower, so the gun would fire, but the bbs wouldn’t advance. The second one couldn’t stay on an 8.5 x 11 inch sheet of paper at 5 yards. The barrel was so loose I could move it around about 1/8″ in any direction. The third completely failed after about 100 rounds. It would no longer cock. None of the three could be considered accurate as compared to the gun reviewed by Paul Capello and Tom Gaylord. I guess that one was an early model.

Dan informed me that he has had nothing but trouble with the current batch of P08 pistols stating that he had “a ton of returns on this batch” and suggested waiting until Umarex works out the bugs. He wanted to purchase one for his father, but said he’ll wait until Umarex fixes the problems.

Sadly, he also stated that the broom handle Mauser is also being returned at an alarming rate. That was going to be my next purchase, but I think I’ll wait until all the wrinkles are ironed out.

As you might expect, they sold boxcars of these guns. Any returns will look like a lot if you pay attention to just the number of guns. But, when you look at the percentage of returns, it’s FAR BELOW the average return rate for CO2 guns.

Chuck Citraro, Pyramyd Air’s customer service manager, also said this:“Thanks for the feedback on the P.08 & the M712. We were very surprised by your comments and did some research on the product quality. Pyramyd Air, like most retail companies, will track the number of returns on a product to determine if there is a quality issues. While we are sure that Dan received some feedback on the products, the return ratio is well below the average for both the P.08 & the M712. The customer reviews/rating were also very good on both products. We have performed some additional quality control testing and found both products are performing up to the manufacturing standards.”

I’m glad that Chuck thinks the guns are performing to the manufacturers standards, but three guns in three weeks doesn’t meet MY performance standards, especially since this is the only gun of all the dozens of guns that I’ve purchased from PA, over seven years, that has failed. Not once, not twice, but three times. And according to Dan, who hears it all from where he sits, I’m not the only one having problems. If you’re talking percentages, and I am only one customer with three bad guns, how many more of these have failed?

I’m sure it’s maddening that you’ve rec’d 3 guns that don’t work right — and for different reasons, too! Personally, I don’t know how to address your particular situation except to say I’m sorry on behalf of Pyramyd Air.

When guns are defective and returned, that’s bad for the retailer as well as the supplier. In the past, when there have been higher rates of returns because a product is defective, Pyramyd Air has removed the BUY button from the product page, refused to sell anymore of them and sent all remaining stock back to the supplier (along with the returned guns).

Even though you’ve had 3 defective guns, the fact is that these guns have a far lower return ratio than other CO2 guns. Sometimes, people have bad luck with certain things for reasons none of us can explain. Sadly, that appears to be what’s happened in your case.

If others on the blog have had similarly overwhelming bad experiences with these guns, they haven’t said anything as far as I can tell.

I thank you for the apology, though I don’t believe it’s you who should be apologizing.

My post was intended as a “buyer beware” post, not as an assault on PA return policies. It just seems that you are trying to whitewash my particular experience by stating statistics and percentages, which mean little to the guy who just wants a gun that works.

I think that Dan hears more from disgruntled customers than does his boss Chuck, so I take Chuck’s comments with a grain of salt. I really don’t understand why the standard response from a retailer goes something like this.

“We understand that you’re having problems with our product, but let me inform you that although you have gone through three of our Model XYZ guns, the percentage of those new guns that fail is much lower than the industry standard.”

I’m old school, Edith, in my 60’s, and I don’t remember when failures were considered such an accepted part of any business.

I’m 66 and worked in retail when I was in high school & college. I worked in discount stores as a cashier and in an upscale retail clothing store as a department manager. Same thing happened then. You may not have experienced it, but it still happened. I know because we got back stuff from reputable manufacturers (and they were American manufacturers in those days!) that just didn’t meet spec all the time. It happens.

We will have to agree to disagree on what constitutes a high return rate, but I would agree that you were unfortunate.

I just returned my fourth P08 pistol to PA. I really thought that I finally had a keeper, but after about 200 rounds, it started shooting in full auto. Maybe that sounds cool to some of you, but I don’t think it’s cool and I don’t think it’s funny. That’s not how the gun is supposed to work. As I have stated above, I am only one customer, and have had four guns fail, each in less than three days.

Before you jump in to defend PA, this isn’t about PA at all. In fact, I can’t think of another company that would be as accommodating as they have been through all of this. However, I was told quite emphatically by a PA customer service rep that the current batch of P08 pistols are being returned at an alarming rate, more so than any other gun the rep could remember. I don’t take that information lightly, and I don’t think potential buyers of this gun should either. Sure, there have been lots of these guns sold, and for the most part, seem to be working fine, but I’m curious about customers who have recently purchase this gun (within the last 30 days), and whether or not they are experiencing the same failure rate(s).

I will continue to exchange my gun(s) until I get one that works, but for now, I have to say “buyer beware”. Maybe it’s time to let UMAREX look into these failures.

I’m an Air Traffic Controller, a Commercial Pilot, and a Certified Flight Instructor. Forgive me if I don’t take the same stance regarding failure, or not meeting a standard. People die in my business when complacency happens. Fortunately, it doesn’t happen “all the time”.

It seems we will also have to agree to disagree on what constitutes acceptable failure rates.

I just got a blow back .08 for my birthday yesterday. Thank you sweet heart. I love the weight, balance, look, action, and precision. I get nice tight groups with plain old Cr copperheads as mentioned before. The problem is the groups are 2 inches left of center. I do notice a little play in the “real” barrel as was mentioned before. Considered shimming it but I’m going to return it and hope for a better one. For $100 I want similar accuracy to what I get from my D 1200. (a very accurate cheap BB plinker) I really like the look of a Luger 08. I bought the original Umarex non blowback model but hated the VERY heavy trigger pull. Felt like 10 pounds or better. Sold it at a militaria show. I have very high hopes for this gun. It is alot of fun to shoot but I need all my shooters to be accurate, even if they are not that precise.

After several months I am now on my 3rd P08; The first one failed after several hundred shots. The second one failed after perhaps 1000 shots or so. It failed after the warranty period, It would not fire. I tried repairing it, to no avail. Guys, the trigger linkage system is ingenious on these things. The parts count of these pistols have to be much greater then the average CO2 bb pistol. One thing I have learned . The pistol seems to perform better and jam less if you hold the toggle open while inserting the magazine. I just load ten Daisy premium bbs in it to allow the co2 to stabilize better. The accuracy is very near my non blowback Makarov . The pistol is a lot of fun to shoot. It takes patience to learn the pistol’s quirks. I did learn to field strip the pistols, and that is handy for jammed bb’s in the internal mechanism, not in the barrel . Shoot safe !