July 14, 2010

The Dane County Immigration Task Force in May recommended an end to routine reporting to ICE at booking. Weeks later, the Madison City Council went on record in overwhelming opposition to the jail reporting policy, recommending that only inmates charged with felonies be flagged for ICE.

[Dane County Sheriff Dave] Mahoney says he won’t change his policy. “I have a moral and ethical responsibility to ensure the security of everyone in my institution,” he says....

Local professionals who work with undocumented immigrants, mostly Latinos, speak passionately of how fear of deportation because of the jail policy affects lives of immigrant families.

The fear can paralyze, says Prudencio Oyarbide, coordinator of Clinica Latina at Mental Health Center of Dane County, a nonprofit agency serving low-income people. He says that some of his clients greatly fear making a misstep that brings them to the attention of police, to jail, and then to deportation: “They have significant impairment. They can’t work, they can’t sleep, they obsess all day long about making a mistake that ends life as they know it.” He estimates that 10 percent of his caseload of 45 to 55 clients shows fear that rises to this level of disorder.

Amy Kucin oversees Mental Health Center programs for adults with drug and alcohol issues. She sees how the fear of deportation complicates the challenges of kicking a habit. “I have a client who was arrested for drinking and driving and is working on sobriety,” she says. “He has so much fear about being out in public that he has to remind himself that his problem is drinking and driving — not looking Latino in public. The anxiety around that is really a struggle. He drives to work and goes home. Other than that, he does not go out."...

Gov. Jim Doyle denied a request Tuesday by Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen to file a friend-of-the-court brief in the U.S. Department of Justice's lawsuit against Arizona over its new immigration law.

“They have significant impairment. They can’t work, they can’t sleep, they obsess all day long about making a mistake that ends life as they know it.” These issues will all go away when the poor darlings go back to their country of legal residence.

Indiana passed a law that requires anyone purchasing alcohol for off premises consumption to be carded regardless of how old they look. The kicker is that if you go into Kroger and the checkout clerk doesn't card you, the checkout clerk can be criminally charged.

This of course sailed through the legislature because its much more important to verify that I'm really 43 years old and can buy a Budweiser than whether I'm a legal resident or am actually the individual on the voter rolls.

You know what else scares people? The possibility that their application for legal immigration will be turned down. Creates quite a bit of anxiety, I understand. Why don't we ever read about those fears? Has anyone created a Mental Health Center to help them?

And why do we hear so much bitching about civil servants like Sheriff Maloney, who are just doing their jobs? Why don't we hear more bitching about the civil servants in USCIS, who are clearly not doing theirs?

...that he has to remind himself that his problem is drinking and driving.

Dude is double-breaking the law! C'mon... WTF?!

On the other hand, establishment Republicans have a long and sordid history of selectively enforcing the law themselves. Undermining the law has been a bipartisan project for decades, and we've already traveled far far down that road.

By the way, I enjoy having the AG and Governor on opposite sides of the Political Fence. It makes things in Madison much more interesting, and I do think Van Hollen is doing as good a job as any AG. Certainly better than Falk would have done.

“They have significant impairment. They can’t work, they can’t sleep, they obsess all day long about making a mistake that ends life as they know it.” He estimates that 10 percent of his caseload of 45 to 55 clients shows fear that rises to this level of disorder.

Ummm, 10% of 45 - 55 people is 5 people. Surely we should ignore laws or change them so the law breakers can get a better night sleep and not feel so guilty about breaking their law.

If I were to go to Mexico (or Canada, Nicaragua, name your country) illegaly, I would feel the same way that these 5 people do. Scared about being deported, worried that anything I do might raise suspicion of authorities. It would be, in large part because I have one of those conscience thingies. Not because the law of the "host" country was bad, mean, evil. I would have no expectation that they should accomodate me by ignoring their own laws.

You don't think that the flood of illegal aliens working for pennies on the dollar, knocking American citizens out of jobs that they used to be able to hold, doesn't affect the economy?

The carpenter who can't work for a decent wage because Jose is scamming the system, working for half or less than half...under the table....paying no taxes on his income, is pissed off. The carpenter's only recourse is to scam the system too. Work for cash and on the black market.

You don't think this has an effect of the economy.

Just think about all the underground money not being taxed when they raise the tax rates on YOU.

YOU and I get to pay more taxes to make up for the lost revenue. I can't go underground with my income. I know lots and lots of people who have.

Dead J: Selective enforcement is the flip side of prosecutorial discretion. What differentiates the two, if anything, is the assumption that in some cases prosecutors decline to press charges for illegitimate reasons. Since prosecutors never have to articulate any reasons (and rarely do so), 'selective prosecution' is mostly just a political jab.

Here the WI warden is not attempting to prosecute anyone. Instead he has apparently decided to inform the feds that a defendant in his custody may have violated federal law. It is hard to see any sensible argument against having a state law enforcement official giving notice to a federal law enforcement official about a possible violation of federal law, but that seems to be the dispute going on in WI.

In all events, the prosecutorial decision would be made by the feds, if there were an immigration violation; and the feds would have the discretion to decline prosecution even if there were a basis to proceed. The real problem is political in that it puts the feds on the spot -- Obama's DOJ probably doesn't want to invite inquiries about what its policy is with respect to acting on information about possible immigration violations.

Note that I just violated yesterday's fatwa against semicolons and long sentences. But that doesn't meant that a professorial prosecution of such an egregious transgression will ncessarily follow. Selective prosecution or just prosecutorial discretion by the hostess?

The comment by Jim Doyle is especially ironic given that yesterday it was discovered that Tom Barrett's campaign manager has been ferrying him around the state in a car that did not pass emissions testing and has had its registration suspended since February 2010.

Barrett, is the mayor of Milwaukee who reluctantly agreed to be the Democratic candidate for governor after being literally begged to run by Obama. His campaign manager, Bill Hyers, is on loan from the Obama campaign.

Hmmm, our Governor's campaign was struggling until SB 1070 fell in her lap.

As far as the economic impact of illegal immigration I believe you can find a stat/study to justify either position. However, its clear that when the economy tanks the number of illegal immigrants goes down. So if we really want to secure our borders we should pursue 20% unemployment.

Perhaps. But I think the wider problem for Obama and the Dems is the feeling that things are spinning out of control, and that the current team in charge (that's O and the Dems) have neither the ability nor the desire to bring them under control. It's all part of the insecurity about where the country is headed and the lack of confidence in the players currently in power. I think many voters recognize immigration (like defense) as primarily a federal responsibility that see it as a process that has spun completely out of control. The voters for whom this issue will be a factor may well be a minority, but they will join lots of others who vote against the Dems for other reasons.

These illegal immigrants are in quite a pickle. Their jobs in construction are gone. They have left everything behind in Mexico or Central America, and now they are stranded here, many married and raising children. Their plight needs our sympathy, but not our legal amnesty to make them into voting citizens. We should control our borders first, and then send them back.

Partly right. As they used to say in the China-Burma-India Theater, AOE - Accumulation of Everything. The economy is at the top, but these other issues are personal hot buttons and will influence a lot of votes.

PS Be careful of what you say. We're way overdue for a Man-Caused Disaster.

They made a CHOICE to break our laws by crossing our border illegally. They could have gone to the local embassy back home and applied to get here the right way. But they made a choice.

Sorry, but it's not my job to rescue people from the bad consequences of their poor decision-making. They're "stranded" by their own actions, not anything that anyone in this country did.

Here's a helpful thought: if all those people who think that their home country is so awful actually stayed there and fought for change, then life in their home country would change.

Instead we encourage the continued failure of their own countries by providing a de facto asylum for everyone who is dissatisfied with the status quo. It's a recipe for a perpetuation of the problem, not a solution.

Send them home. Keep more from coming, and you'll see that things will change south of the border over time.

"You don't think that the flood of illegal aliens working for pennies on the dollar, knocking American citizens out of jobs that they used to be able to hold, doesn't affect the economy?"

It's even worse. Those who support illegal immigration are supporting de facto slavery.

Why do they claim the illegal immigrants NEED to be here? So they can be exploited by paying them next-to-nothing. These people know they can't complain for fear of being deported (rightfully so), so they are treated badly by their employers and they live on subsistence wages.

It's pretty hard to see how living in fear under the complete control of your employer is terribly different from a de facto state of slavery for all those "brown people" which Leftists claim that conservatives hate.

Conservatives want them to build a better country and a better neighbor on our border - to stay home and improve the government and economy in their home country. Leftists want them to continue being exploited by wealthy liberals too smug and busy with their cocktail parties to raise their own children or mow their own lawns.

And DBQ, it is even worse than you imagine. This mental health center is paid for with your tax dollars. So you and I are paying for mental health treatment for illegal aliens who worry about being illegal and getting caught, and the stupid therapists that we are paying to work with these illegal money pits are advocating for amnesty.

What an amazing country. People would voluntarily suffer through that just to stay here as second class citizens.

I get the same feelings occasionally like when: doing my taxes, taking drugs, driving, flying, entering a public building, etc.

There are so many laws now, and they are so unknowable and unpredictable in their application, that I think a lot of us rationally feel some of that anxiety too.

My California legislature passes over 1000 new laws every year. How could anyone actually feel confident that they are not breaking some law at any given moment? Anyway, what's to worry about as long as it's working so well? Isn't it?

Jim: It's even worse. Those who support illegal immigration are supporting de facto slavery.

Worse? Better. Better than slavery - for the employers, that is. Slave-owners at least had the responsibility for feeding, housing, and providing medical care for their slaves. (If only to protect their "investment".) In the neo-globo-slave system, the employer can get away with paying Third World wages in a First World country by dumping all those costs (plus those for educating their children) on the tax-paying public. The public can be scammed for a time with the ol' "but you'd be paying $50.00 a head for lettuce, your first born child for a pork chop blah blah blah" line of b.s., until the high cost of "cheap" becomes impossible to ignore in deteriorating civic conditions.

But best of all, the neo-slavers get to be the good guys this time 'round, by playing the race card and getting all the useful-idiot church ladies of both sexes to work for them. Sweet!

Conservatives want them to build a better country and a better neighbor on our border - to stay home and improve the government and economy in their home country. Leftists want them to continue being exploited by wealthy liberals too smug and busy with their cocktail parties to raise their own children or mow their own lawns.

Who are the REAL racists here?

This is not really a left/right thing. Plenty of official "conservatives" are open-borders neo-slavin' whackjobs. There's no daylight between Obama's and Bush's attitudes on immigration.

The Repubs will ride the rage for electoral purposes and then go right back to business as usual.

"These people know they can't complain for fear of being deported (rightfully so), so they are treated badly by their employers and they live on subsistence wages."

This is largely a myth. There are some cases of this abuse, but generally illegals are paid as well as most other unskilled labor. The law demands that they get full protection under labor laws. The money an employer could save by exploiting illegals is not worth the risk of getting caught.

The truth is that generally illegals, like most immigrants, are just good, hard-working employees, with far less sense of undue entitlement than is true of citizens. They are just better workers. This is due to an appreciation of the value of a job and the real life experience of being poor.

They may not have legal right to those jobs, but they earn them through hard work, and choose them voluntarily and rationally for their own good. They are not slaves.

They can leave whenever they want, which is the key to solving the problem. Make them want to leave.

“I have a client who was arrested for drinking and driving and is working on sobriety,” she says. “He has so much fear about being out in public that he has to remind himself that his problem is drinking and driving — not looking Latino in public. The anxiety around that is really a struggle. He drives to work and goes home. Other than that, he does not go out."...

So is this guy drinking at work then driving home or drinking at home then going to work?

"The explanation given: to ensure the security of everyone in my institution is eyeroll-inducing, however. Reminds me of Think of the Children!"

From the quoted portion I couldn't tell what he meant. Could be that he needs to deport foreign criminals for the safety of his staff. I mean, keeping deportable criminals around (that could be sent home) doesn’t exactly help with safety.

DBQ: Yes to you! They knew they were committing a crime when they snuck into the country. If you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime. Let's buy them some tissues so they can weep on their way home.

And MadisonMan said... Immigration is shaping up to be at least as big a problem for the Dems in the coming elections as Obamacare, the deficits and the bailouts.

Disagree. It's the Economy. That trumps all, except terrorist attacks and wars. Tip O'Neil says all politics is local. If people have lost their jobs, and they see illegal immigrants doing the work at lower wages, then that's local economics. I had a co-worker insist illegals weren't causing unemployment. But then he joked about 'Jose's Roofing' charging half of what the Anglo roofers charged. And how 'Jose' said "Make the check out to Pedro's Roofing. It's the same thing."

Jim: If they stayed home, perhaps they could, as you suggest, help reform their country. We have been subsidizing a corrupt government for years. Money from illegals has been #2 source of foreign currency for Mexico, after oil, for years.

Bagho20: Where did you get the information that illegals are paid as well as other unskilled labor? If they were paid the same, where is the incentive to hire illegals? And for skilled labor? Your argument doesn't ring true.

Republicans need to tread carefully here. For years businesses have been willing to thwart reform because they have exploited the workers. In the 1960's organized labor objected to illegal immigrants. Perhaps this issue one prompted by Conservatives, not necessarily by Republicans.

Another reason for wanting to stop illegal immigration is to protect those illegals from exploitation.

Just think: the exploitation is from unscrupulous businesses, and the myriad of social service workers who see ministering to the illegal immigrants as their meal ticket. Their jobs depend on having them around. If all the illegal immigrants were gone, there are a slew of social workers who would be out of a job.

"You don't think that the flood of illegal aliens working for pennies on the dollar, knocking American citizens out of jobs that they used to be able to hold, doesn't affect the economy?"

It's even worse. Those who support illegal immigration are supporting de facto slavery.

Just like the abolitionists had no problem with waged slaves working in their factories. Freeing the slaves on the Southern plantations not only didn't cost them any money, it actually made money for them.

"This is largely a myth. There are some cases of this abuse, but generally illegals are paid as well as most other unskilled labor. The law demands that they get full protection under labor laws. The money an employer could save by exploiting illegals is not worth the risk of getting caught. "

That simply isn't true. If it WERE true, then NO employer would hire them. They would simply hire a citizen in their place.

This is the great fallacy of arguments for allowing illegal immigration. Well, this and the fact they don't consume public services at a higher rate than the public at large.

The REALITY is that most illegals are working in fields which allow their employers to pay sub-minimum wages: nannies, landscaping, sweat shops, factories, etc. If the employer doesn't care about federal fines for hiring them in the first place, I really don't see how they're going to fear some violating some wage or work safety laws. A scofflaw is a scofflaw.

While I don't dispute that SOME illegals are hard-working and not a net burden on society, the fact remains that they're ALL criminals by definition of them having them crossed the border illegally.

Do we say don't prosecute this guy for the crime he committed because he's otherwise a pretty decent fellow? Of course not.

Remember that Rudy Giuliani cleaned up New York City by enforcing such pedestrian laws as littering, loitering and jaywalking first. Much of the rest of it cleaned itself up when it became clear to the criminal element that there was a ZERO tolerance for all law-breaking activity.

So it is with illegal immigrants. You go after them in every way possible: by mandating use of e-Verify, by strict enforcement of employment policies, by going after the people hiring them as nannies, by denying federal funding to self-declared "sanctuary cities," etc. Soon enough it will become clear that there's just no reason to go over the border because there is no work or lifestyle worth having to be found here.

This is largely a myth. There are some cases of this abuse, but generally illegals are paid as well as most other unskilled labor. The law demands that they get full protection under labor laws

Are you serious. Illegals are routinely ripped off and mistreated by unscrupulous employers because they know that the illegal has no recourse. Who are they going to complain to?

Labor laws....you must be joking.

The influx of illegals who are doing jobs that Americans HAVE been doing at prices that are at least 50% less than what has been paid are the main reason that the construction industry for one(not counting the unions of course) are in the tank.

They are also the reason that many unskilled people, especially in the black community, are unable to get entry level jobs in restaurants or in laboring occupations. Unless, the unskilled worker is willing to work for peanuts like the illegal, they don't get hired.

Instead WE get to pony up more money to pay for welfare and other benefits for the permanently unemployed.

The result of all this is that we have a permanent class of welfare poor and a permanent class of low visibility servants or basically unofficial slavery.

Why the blacks or the hispanics or other minorities think that the Democrats or progressives are their friends is beyond me. The plan that Obama and the rest of his ilk are supporting, by turning a blind eye to illegal aliens, is pure evil. Designed to keep people subserviant and in poverty for the sake of keeping them as a reliable uneducated voting block.

bagoh20: The money an employer could save by exploiting illegals is not worth the risk of getting caught.

Riiight, bagoh20. That's why wages and working conditions in, say, meatpacking, construction, etc., are as good as they were 20-30 years ago. Pull the other one.

This is largely a myth. There are some cases of this abuse, but generally illegals are paid as well as most other unskilled labor.

Well, duh. When illegals are heavily represented in a field, they're going to set the prevailing wage, and are therefore going to be "paid as well" as the native.

Milwaukee: I had a co-worker insist illegals weren't causing unemployment. But then he joked about 'Jose's Roofing' charging half of what the Anglo roofers charged. And how 'Jose' said "Make the check out to Pedro's Roofing. It's the same thing."

Obviously, Mil, José is just a better worker, and that Anglo roofer, undisciplined by poverty, no doubt has a deplorable "sense of entitlement".

Your co-worker is not unemployed, and he was getting his roof done cheap. QED, illegals do not contribute to unemployment.

Unfortunately, that's the way most people think. I know the type. Of course they squeal like pigs when what goes around comes around.

When I left Berkley Midwest with my shiny new PhD in 1980, I never, ever thought I would see the day when even the most minimal signs of sanity would sprout on the Isthmus. If you have lost the UW, you have truly lost. Perhaps it is time to revist my old school.

A lot of people question my facts, but I have known 100s of illegal aliens in my decades in L.A. They get paid the prevailing wage, which is minimum ($8/hr)or better, because if their employer does not, there are lawyers running ads on every Spanish station and metro bus promising easy money to file a case. For the employer to use their illegal status against them is then illegal and seriously hampers the employer's defense.

In California, they are paid well and protected. That's why they come.

I never suggested they didn't depress wages. They do, but it's because they add supply to the labor market, not because they are exploited. I also added that it's not just supply but quality. They are better workers in general, punctual, loyal, hardworking, and respectful.

Most employers don't even know for sure which of their employees are illegal. The fake documents are everywhere and most impediments have been solved by the black market.

We have an illegal alien problem because we don't want to do what it takes to make our nation unattractive to them; make them truly illegal. Right now they are as illegal as sodomy.

I don't think people from other parts of the country realize how well illegals blend in in border states. There are millions of perfectly legal people who speak no English and are identical in every other way with an illegal. Just like a Canadian would in Madison.

Congress passed something called the State Criminal Alien Assistance Program which is administered by the U.S. Justice Department which reimburses local governments for the expenses relating to incarcerating undocumented aliens. Why wouldn't a sheriff want to find out if the inmates in the county jail were undocumented so as to take advantage of this program?

People who favor illegal immigration frequently make the argument that without illegal Mexican farm workers food prices in America would go through the roof. I remember a column a month ago by a presumably bright young woman who claimed without illegals food prices would "double or quadruple."

She cited no authority for that. I think she just assumed that's what would happen. The only figures I've ever read on the matter say something quite different. About 20 years ago an agricultural economist said that if you doubled the minimum wage that most farm workers were currently getting (to make the jobs attractive to unemployed Americans) the cost of a 65 cent basket of strawberries would rise five cents.

Currently here at the big produce market where I shop in Los Angeles a two-basket jumbo container of strawberries is selling for $1.50. One basket then would be a 75 cents. Suppose that paying a living wage to get Americans to pick those strawberries increased the price from 75 a basket to 85 cents. Would anyone even notice?

Another point to consider. A lot of agriculture in this country is not mechanized because it's cheaper to hire illegals. Without illegals, a lot more crops would be mechanized. In California, despite it's big flat fields, grapes are usually picked by hand. In contrast, I've seen mechanical harvesters picking rows of grapes on hillsides in Tuscany.

My conclusion. We don't need illegals to pick our food. Paying Americans decent wages to do those jobs wouldn't even have much of an impact on food prices, given that most growers would immediately mechanize the minute it became cheaper to harvest that way.

“I have a client who was arrested for drinking and driving and is working on sobriety,” she says. “He has so much fear about being out in public that he has to remind himself that his problem is drinking and driving — not looking Latino in public.

Boofuckinghoo...this guy should be in custody until he can be deported.

How anyone could have an iota of sympathy for a drunk driver is beyond me.

I've witnessed the real pain drunk drivers cause to innocent families, not some trumped up psycho-babble BS to deflect their illegal status.

This is nothing more than Madison participating in the DHS "Secure Communities" program. Police are asked to report anyone whose immigration/citizenship status is uncertain. Police send DHS fingerprints, photos, and any other biometric data they may have. DHS reports back in two to three hours with, "hold," "no interest," or, "individual is of interest to 'X', please notify them." I suppose neither Obama nor Holder knows of the program - Napolitano, well, maybe not.

I never suggested they didn't depress wages. They do, but it's because they add supply to the labor market, not because they are exploited. I also added that it's not just supply but quality. They are better workers in general, punctual, loyal, hardworking, and respectful.

I certainly agree with this. In the area of Calif where I live, it is quite agricultural.

However, I disagree with the prevailing wage statement. Sure., in a business establishment such as a restaurant.. a dishwasher or store clerk is usually going to be getting minimum wage anyway.

However, for those illegals that are performing jobs that were orignally done by independent small businesses. Handyman, carpenter, plumber, house cleaner, window washer, gardener, etc: the illegals work under the table for much much less than the legal citizen would have been working for.

Many of these types of small businesses and independents have either gone out of business because they couldn't compete or have gone underground.

I can tell you the number times that my husband finds out that someone has used the services of Jose the illegal alien to repair a plumbing problem or pump issue instead of calling on my husband's business has been increasing.

Did they save some money by not paying for a service call and his hourly wage. You bet. Was the problem fixed properly. Nope.

Now when they call him to try to clean up the problem after they tried to skate around doing it right, my husband either

1.) tells them to stuff it and try to find the illegal guy to fix the problem because there is more liablility than it is worth to try to fix the badly done job.

or more often

2.) Charges double what he would normally charge because he has to undo the mess.

Does the illegal plumber pay local taxes, estimated quartely income taxes, social security and medicare taxes, property taxes, carry liablility insurance, pay contractor's fees, current registration and insurance on his vehicles, advertising, overhead on a building....fuck no. We have to do all of those things......mr. illegal doesn't have to do doo-squat.

They DO depress wages because people are cheap and looking for ways to save money. Not that I blame them in this economic downturn. However, it is hurting small business and hurting the communities that used to support them. The two brothers who used to have a yard/maitenance/gardening service that supported them through college while they were getting their horticultural degrees and started a nice business after college....have moved away because they can't compete with $6.00 an hour Raul. Sold their houses at depressed prices and moved their kids out of the local schools. As a result the entire community suffers because productive members who shopped, belonged to organizations like Lions and Chamber, contributed to other local businesses by shopping and purchasing supplies....are gone.

So you can take all the hard working faldaroll and shove it where the sun don't shine as far as I'm concerned. They are breaking the law and harming American Citizens.

bagoh20: A lot of people question my facts, but I have known 100s of illegal aliens in my decades in L.A. They get paid the prevailing wage, which is minimum ($8/hr)or better...

Because most of us know people with levels of experience and credibility comparable to your own, who say otherwise. Some of us have even lived in or visited that fabled and inaccessible land of mystery, California. At any rate, California isn't the nation, and there are few places here where illegal labor isn't presenting problems - including crappy treatment of illegal workers.

I never suggested they didn't depress wages.

Well, your comment did imply that, but no need to quibble about a mis-speak.

They do, but it's because they add supply to the labor market, not because they are exploited. I also added that it's not just supply but quality. They are better workers in general, punctual, loyal, hardworking, and respectful.

There's no relation between glutting a labor market and worker exploitation? Hmmmm. (For the record, I'm not of the "let 'em all in if they jump through the legal hoops" persuasion. Excessive immigration is excessive immigration.)

How much "punctuality, loyalty, hard work, and respect" is an employer entitled to for depressed wages that don't track the real cost of living? (Apparently American workers aren't the only group with an inflated sense of entitlement.)

Imagine graphing "worker quality" against wages. Is there no wage so low for a high quality worker in this country that it could constitute "exploitation", as long as the worker was willing? If you don't think wage depression has any relation to worker exploitation, then there are millions of "high quality" workers from places much worse off than Mexico or Central America who'd be willing to come here, further glut the labor market, and "not be exploited" for significantly lower wages than illegals are now receiving. Still don't see anybody being exploited?

If not, then I guess we can't use the word "exploited" for anything but outright physical abuse of workers in First World countries, since a First World country is still a better place to be than a Third World country. That is, until all that lack of exploitation inevitably reduces the former to the conditions of the latter, whatever you choose to call it.

As to exploitation, one man's exploitation is another's opportunity. Being "exploited" was the best thing that ever happened to me.

There are millions of people -billions worldwide - dreaming of what some call exploitation. It takes a certain mindset to see opportunity in such a negative light and it's a major problem in our country today.

Illegal immigrants in the U.S. are now paid through wages and benefits better than any non-skilled labor in history. It's hardly exploitation. If they were being exploited we wouldn't have such a problem. They get free medical care, education, welfare, and all the rest. Who is exploiting who?

A lot of arguments I'm getting here are ones I always hear from people not as close to the problem as I am.

This one:"They are also the reason that many unskilled people, especially in the black community, are unable to get entry level jobs in restaurants or in laboring occupations. Unless, the unskilled worker is willing to work for peanuts like the illegal, they don't get hired."

I run a business in an overwhelmingly black area. When we advertise a job, skilled or not, 98% of the applicants are Latino. A lot are illegal and we screen them out through the federal system that we volunteered for as soon as it became available.

My point is that the people who are getting hired are the ones showing up ready to work. People are lazily assuming most Latinos are illegals. They are not. The immigrants taking these jobs are mostly legal, just like the previous ones from Europe. They have a better work ethic just like before and it's having the same effect as before.

People need to grow up and accept that the world is not going to let you keep your cushy paycheck if someone else can do your job for much less. Like it or not, this is true fairness.

I don't support illegal immigration, but I think it's important to be clear about the problem in order to avoid making policy that only makes things worse for this nation that we need to compete in as equals.

There was a single generation - my parent's - who had a relatively noncompetitive labor market to thrive in. It was an anomaly in history. We need to get over it, stop whining, stop wasting, and get to work. It takes two Americans to support a family now primarily due to the size of government babysitting half the damn population. WE are our problem. Stop giving away your labor to a wasteful bureaucracy and scapegoating other victims of it. There is enough money and enough work if we stop wasting it by encouraging others into a life of sloth.

Right now in this terrible job market people are turning down jobs in order to continue to collect unemployment. I don't blame them, I blame us for giving that hard earned tax money away like fools.

SECURE the borders. Just do that to start. Nothing else works without that FIRST.

It is so PC that we cannot even get rid of the criminals cause that would involve A) a gutlass vote sucker making a call, and B) criminals will be back faster than you thought possible.

Once we have some control, then and only then can we hash out pros and cons. A violated law is worth making a case of. So is the Fact that a lot of these guys (and gals) are the type who are inspired by the same things we are. Go back home and make your country a better place to live sounds good. Go home and die is closer to the reality they face.

Exploited ? Yes, both citizens in our nation and desperate citizens of Mexico have been systemicly exploited by phony liberals and phony conservatives. Lets hear it for the rule of law.

Liberals ? Those who are so much smarter than us that they should be paid big bucks to tell others how to live their lives.

Liberals are a cause of spreading poverty, not a group fighting it.

Cost ? They are a drag upon our society, all the poor are, but we are discussing an unnecessary addition to that drag.

Conservatives. I would hope a true conservative would not take advantage, but then what do we call those all who do ? For they most surely do. Phony conservatives.

Phony Americans, those who are trying to change the melting pot to "gotcha" groups playing the victim game to break us apart. Only ones who are truly racist are those always crying racist.

We will not have a rule of law until the laws are clear and unstandable. They are not understandable if there are so many you are unable to know the law. We also will not have a rule of law until someone is unable to pick and chose which laws to enforce.

Here's a novel thought (for democrats at least) OBEY THE LAW. If the illegals go back to their country and apply for lawful visas and work permits THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO LOOK OVER THEIR SHOULDERS! Then we wouldn't have to listen to these sob stories from people who shouldn't be here to begin with. Three hundred thousand Mexicans got citizenship last year. So Mexicans know how to play by the rules, there is no excuse for their fellow Mexicans to break the rules.