On April 3, 1998, a prerecorded interview was broadcast on Bay TV (local
cable channel 35 in San Francisco) between anchor Beth Ruyak and heart specialist
Dean Ornish, M.D. The following transcription was created by scott richie
for Winky.

[introduction to taped interview]Beth Ruyak: His first book, Eat
More, Weigh Less, had a tremendous impact on the American public.
Dr. Dean Ornish is a leading cardiologist who
doesn't advocate the use of medicine or surgery to treat heart disease. His
new book is called Love and Survival and recently,
I asked him how his new work is being received as the publics per- ception of
alternative medicine has been changing.

[begin taped interview]Dr. Dean Ornish: Well,
in some ways it's even bigger because people, with the earlier book on reversing
heart disease, most people thought was just for people with heart disease, even
though it isn't. But love and survival are issues that touch everyone's
lives, so this has actually a much bigger response than anything I've ever done
before.

Beth Ruyak: In terms of a symbolic language for every- thing that
we do, the heart would be the symbol of love...

Dr. Dean Ornish: That's true.

Beth Ruyak: And so it would teach us everything we need to know
about love, but you didn't initially see it that way, did you, as a scientist
or as a doctor?

Dr. Dean Ornish: Well, actually, it's always been
part of my work, but people tend to focus much more in the diet, you know...it's
gotten to the point it's hard for me to go out to dinner without someone either
apologizing for what they're eating or commenting on what I'm eating; and clearly
diet is important, I haven't lost my enthusiasm for the power of diet, but I
don't know anything in medicine, including diet or drugs or surgery or
anything, that has a greater impact on our health and premature death and disease,
across the board, from virtually all causes, as the healing power of love and
intimacy. And even though the heart is the symbol of love as you've indicated,
these aren't things that we talk about in cardiology meetings or really as part
of my medical training; and yet study after study has shown that people who
feel lonely and depressed and isolated have three to five times the rate of
premature death and disease, across the board, when compared to those who have
a sense of love and connection and community. So we ignore these ideas
at our own peril; and I'm hoping that this book, and by extension this interview,
may help raise that level of awareness so that people know what a powerful difference
it can make, and once we know that then we can bring different choices and reverse
those trends.

Beth Ruyak: Well, we can talk calories and sodium and fats and
all kinds of things in our diet, and we can talk the science of the heart and
surgeries and all the things that go with it. Our language is not so complete
when we're talking about our spiritual selves, our healing, and all of the stuff
we can't exactly put our fingers on.

Dr. Dean Ornish: Well, as you've indicated, poets and artists
and musicians and mystics throughout the ages have talked about the heart as
being more than just a pump...and it is more than a pump. I
mean, as a pump we have to deal with it on a physical level, but we also need
to talk about the emotional and psychosocial and spiritual dimensions of the
heart. And I really think that the real epidemic in our culture is just
that. It's not just physical heart disease, but also emotional and spiritual
heart disease. By that I mean the loneliness, isolation, alien- ation,
and depression that is rampant in our culture, in part because of the breakdown
in the last fifty years of the social networks that used to give most people
that sense of connection and community.

Beth Ruyak: Well, you're among a handful of voices that are saying
very truthful but difficult things to people, because you're asking them to
look at those heart places, you're asking them to go right into the center
of their own pain, and for whatever else anybody goes through phys- ically,
that can be the most agonizing and frightening experience of all.

Dr. Dean Ornish: Well, it can be, and that's why we're
so walled off, so many of us, that we have elaborate strategies
for numbing pain or killing pain or distracting ourselves from pain. But
the idea is that the pain is there for a rea- son, the pain is not the problem,
the pain is the messenger. It's to say, hey, listen up, pay attention, you're
not doing something that's in your best interests.And if we try to numb it or kill it or distract ourselves from it with smoking
and eating too much and drinking too much and abusing drugs and working too
hard, then it's a little like clipping the wires to a fire alarm when you go
back to sleep without putting out the fire, the problem just keeps getting worse.
But the pain also has transformative value because change
is difficult, even good change. But if you're in enough pain and the strategies
for numbing or killing the pain aren't working so well, suddenly the idea of
change becomes more appealing. It's kind of like you say, you know,
boy, it's going to be really hard to change, but I am in so much pain I'm willing
to try just about anything. And
when people then go on my program, do the kinds of things that I recommend,
even though they can be difficult, they generally find that they feel so much
better, not just in the physical ways we can measure, but also the ones that
are more difficult to measure, but often the more meaningful. They
may often look back at the pain as something that was absolutely necessary.
Some patients of mine say things like, you know, having a heart attack
was the best thing that ever happened to me. Even though that sounds
crazy, what they mean is that, it took that to get my attention and had I
not gone through that, I wouldn't have made these changes that have made my
life so much more joyful and meaningful.

Beth Ruyak: And maybe the goal is that people don't have to go
through that degree of pain to get to that kind of healing. You are still
Dr. Dean Ornish, the food guy. You do still and will always
still have the diet program, so what's the newest program, what's the newest
food pro- gram?

Dr. Dean Ornish: Well, I've tried - - you know, diet
is important and I've been working with a company that's come out with a new
line of foods, it's called Advantage 10. They come out April 1st, which I think
is always a great day to introduce something...if it doesn't work...[shrugs]

Beth Ruyak: Uh-oh. April Fools Day. Did you
plan that that way?

Dr. Dean Ornish: No. But, you know, one of the things
I hear so often is, you know, the food is boring, low fat food is boring, and
am I going to live longer or is it just going to seem longer if I eat this way
and that isn't the choice, because these are pizzas, and smoothies, and veggie
burgers, and entrees, and power bar kinds of things that taste good, look good,
are convenient and will be avail- able in natural food supermarkets and health
food stores around the Bay - - around the country.

Beth Ruyak: And quickly, the heart - - the actual science part
of the heart research still goes on at UC San Francisco.

Dr. Dean Ornish: Yes. Well, we have a program
that's a combined program between UCSF and California Pacific Medical Center
where they're making our 'reversing heart disease' program available; and not
just for people with heart disease but anyone whose interested in improving
their health and well-being. It's a terrific program. I highly
recommend it.

Beth Ruyak: I think it's a remarkable challenge to take people
from the thoughts of just planning a good diet to the core of them, and really
healing the loving part of them that is what their heart is all about.

Dr. Dean Ornish: Well, that's what I think we're here
for, is to grow in wisdom, to learn to love each other, and the irony is, is
that when we do that, the fear that you mentioned earlier is that, if I open
my heart to someone, if I make myself emotionally vulnerable, I might get hurt.
What I'm hoping people realize is that not doing that is what threatens
our survival. And study after study is showing that when we open our heart
to each other, when we find ways of becoming more intimate, not just in romantic
relationships, but in any kind of relationship, it's healing; and in
my new book I give eight pathways to intimacy that gets different ways that
people can learn to be more open and intimate.
And I hope that as people become more aware of what a powerful difference these
make and how much joy they can bring when we begin to do that, and how our survival
can be improved when we do that, then people will begin having the courage to
say, it's worth it.[end taped interview]

[end transcript]

Dr. Dean Ornish's new book is called Love and Survival,The Scientific Basis for the Healing Power of
Intimacy