I never understand why those who supposedly "evolutionists" and theists keep saying "believing in Evolution". I thought believing means agreeing on something that doesn't require evidence. Since evolution is proven fact, it is _knowing_, not believing. Either way, both groups just don't get the point. FAIL.

"Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan)

(26-01-2013 03:32 AM)pxlgirl Wrote: I never understand why those who supposedly "evolutionists" and theists keep saying "believing in Evolution". I thought believing means agreeing on something that doesn't require evidence. Since evolution is proven fact, it is _knowing_, not believing. Either way, both groups just don't get the point. FAIL.

I could easily derail this into a philosophical debate, but I won't. What I will say is this. I believe in evolution. I also believe in in gravity. I wouldn't consider either of these facts, despite the overwhelming evidence in support of the theories. I also believe I exist. I consider the last one to be fact though. I believe in some things that are generally accepted, and I even believe in some things for which there is no credible evidence based on mathematical probability, such as the existence of intelligent life outside of our planet. Some things we can only speculate on due to the limitations of physics (our current understanding of them anyway.) In any case I think that in a couple hundred years there will be about as many religious folks who deny that evolution exists as there are religious people today who claim that gravity is a farce which is unprovable.

I'll speak for myself here. Everything we know is ideological. Some people see ideology as a pejorative word. It's not. So yes, we believe everything we know; evidence or no evidence.

What that doesn't mean is, "Yeah, you just believe in evolution, so it's really just BS." Yeah. Not so much.

But I'm with you in that anyone who shits on evolution is going through some serious cognitive dissonance and ignoring some pretty blatant facts. I don't necessarily fault them. Dissonance can be an important protection mechanism in many cases. But it sure would be nice if people saw the light. But to paraphrase Daniel Quinn, anyone waiting for everyone in the world to agree on something is going to be waiting a long time

Hey, Dark.

Since when is this a nudity free zone!?!?!? What the fuck, maaaaaaaaaaan!

As intelligent animals, we have almost cancelled out survival of the fittest. Since we have developed modern medical technology people that would have died while still very young, actually live. Babies born with their heart on the outside of their chests can have the heart physically moved and go on to live full lives. Because we live based on money and don't have to hunt for food, the blind can go shopping instead of going out to hunt and possibly starving or facing a predator that can see. People who are too lazy to get off their asses and find a job get rental assistance and welfare, along with medical care. If anything, it has almost become a bad thing to be ordinary. If you are just average nobody will help you, you actually need to struggle. If you are above average intelligence, you will have no trouble at all. If you are way under, you will be taken care of all your life and never struggle. We did away with survival of the fittest a long time ago.

I think another common notion about us atheists, which I've gotten from Christians here in the south, is that we are all nihilists who have no morals and that atheism somehow precludes a belief in human dignity and worth. So some get this idea that we are like nazis or some such crap and that since we know evolution is true and don't believe in god, that the next logical consequence is that nothing holds us back from something like Hitler or Pol Pot. This notion is so mistaken. I feel confident in saying that we here believe human life is worth preserving and that we believe in the right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, etc that our founding fathers did. These were secular deist ideas, not Christian as the Christian Right would have us believe.

Anyhow the equation of atheism with devaluing human life and the quality of it is just not true. If I understand correctly, evolution selected for cooperation as well as competition. Other posters expressed it better than I can, but the idea of a gene being useful only under certain conditions is key. Since we are social animals, cooperation will likely have to be there.

I value human life very much and am glad medicine and biomedical engineering have made a good life possible for folks who would not have made it before. The way I see it, we need everyone's contributions. The point about Stephen Hawking is well made.

We are not all nihilists or cold bitches/bastards be because our lack of belief in an irrational deity. I may be programmed by nature to love my son to ensure my genes' survival, but this does not make it even less of a rich experience. I have morals and regard for others too.

I ramble and maybe got off topic, but wanted to address the fearmongering tactics that I've heard from Christians. That saying that without god anything is posslble just doesn't hold water. So you keep rocking it and making cool designs and know that it was not just Christians who fought for civil rights, abolition,and equal access and opportunity for people with disabilities.

Quote:As intelligent animals, we have almost cancelled out survival of the fittest.

Nope. Darwinism is as inescapable as gravity or electromagnetism. These forces are always at work. Always.

The things you list are proof of Darwinism at work.

Like I said, fit has nothing to do with toughest, burliest, biggest, strongest, fastest, smartest, most aggressive, most proactive, or any such thing. It has to do with advantage in a given context at a given time.

Quote:As intelligent animals, we have almost cancelled out survival of the fittest.

Nope. Darwinism is as inescapable as gravity or electromagnetism. These forces are always at work. Always.

The things you list are proof of Darwinism at work.

Like I said, fit has nothing to do with toughest, burliest, biggest, strongest, fastest, smartest, most aggressive, most proactive, or any such thing. It has to do with advantage in a given context at a given time.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

What human intelligence has done is to redefine fitness. The universal algorithm is always at work.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

If evolution is considered the exclusive domain of biology, then sure, saying we've redefined fitness (I assume you mean via things like technology and other cultural concerns) makes some kind of sense.

But when Darwinism is considered the universal governing force that it actually is, then nothing has been redefined. Fitness means the exact same thing always. No trait is ever adaptive as an absolute. So the fact that there are things that are adaptive today that weren't before is no kind of redefinition (especially including the cultural traits that were formerly excluded from the mix). What fitness is is always the same. What traits make something fit always changes.