@Wis I think I see your point but I think this will lead to trouble… If you want representatives for sectors in the community, where will this division end? The sectors are endless… Does it matter there is no female equivalent to Etienne? It’s not necessary to have a collaboration video full with beasty moves, they have to be “unique” and “creative” (sorry I keep saying this, but I have a bit the feeling nobody is picking up these criteria, and for me they seem the most general, less discriminating). There is no single reason why a girl or any person from any nationality can make a creative shot.To talk a bit more about uniqueness and creativity ( ) : I have the feeling your aim of the collab is showing skills? (at least that’s what I read between the lines ) Let Etienne do his unique beasty moves and let the girls do some creative stuff, no reason the exclude any of them. But including a girl because she’s a girl, seems to me a wrong selection argument.Does it matter for the purpose of the collab if there are a few or a lot Spanish diabolo players?

I think you are missing my point of "using the collaboration as a promotional video for diabolo around the world", if that is understood I think the questions you made are almost immediately solved.

If you can't understand why I believe that girls may be more encouraged to try diabolo if they see that in an all-star video there is a girl, then I think I cannot help you to understand it. If I were speaking of forcing at least X girls, or 50%, I would we worried about potential backlash, but ensuring a minimum of 1 person is very safe in my eyes.

How to create these sectors I am speaking of? Country, gender and age (+/-15) seem wide enough and safe enough not to get into trouble. With this we will have that in the collab needs to be. At least a girl, at least a guy, at least 1 kid, at least 1 adult, and at least one person from each country that submitted.

Maybe the issue here is that you keep repeating unique and creative because you think people are not getting your point, but I believe it is actually you the one is ignoring what other people are saying is their goal of the collab. They just have a different opinion.

For the purpose of the collab as I described it above it does matter if as many countries as possible are included, I believe. Having an excessive number of Spaniards might be also a problem if I am a Spaniard, I am editing the collab, the goal of the collab for many people is to create a feeling of world wide community, then I release my video and people feel their goal has been deceived.

Making a poll doesn’t seem a good idea to me either… like you said: a fraction will vote. And we all know where voting leads to, before we know Trump is editing the next years collab…

Well, I am a very pro democracy guy. If Trump runs for it, and he get voted, then let it happen, and try to learn afterwards

So then, if we do not vote, what will be here will be this thread, that we can point out to next editors, and then they can come and try to figure out themselves what they want/think should do, and then handle the consequences. I am fine with it, I just do not know if the voting in addition may hurt.

Just finished reading trough the messages about the new collab. I think we all agree that this is a thing that should bring us together not divide us. I'm feeling that current state might be dividing us little bit so my suggestion is this. Moderators divide this topic in two topics (or just put up a new topic for the classic feedback).

I think there should be feedback on video and a discussion of what collab in future should be. I think these are two big discussions that could be separated.

This way Clement and people who have done great job could get little less heat on their video and we could maybe have proper discussion on the defining what should be collaboration video. Do you think this be good idea for mods to do?

Good call from Marko/whoever is responsible for making this topic, I felt a little bad that one of the most discussed topics in recent history was the collab thread with very little commentary on the actual content of the video.

That being said, I'll echo my thoughts from before: this year's collab had some incredible footage and was phenomenally edited, but in my opinion the collab video is about the sense of community we get from this forum, and I don't think that really came through this year.

Yeah, the video is done and I'm happy this raised conversation since the next time it will be different again and hopefully we as community are happier about it. We will learn lot from this no matter where the discussion goes.

I believe it would bring us more together if we were able to have separate discussions about the content and how this could be done better in the future.

“Maybe the issue here is that you keep repeating unique and creative because you think people are not getting your point, but I believe it is actually you the one is ignoring what other people are saying is their goal of the collab. They just have a different opinion.”

I’m surprised you say this… I’ve followed the discussion closely and responded to a lot of comments…

I think it’s important, and that is what I tried to do with my responses, to lift up the discussion out of the range of ‘opinions’. Everybody has his own opinion about this, that’s a problem, so what we need are arguments to come to a consensus. I don’t think we will agree by just saying what your opinion is. Giving your opinion with reasonable arguments allows others to build up a thought construction. I don’t see how we can build if we have no fundament. (you just gave a new possible fundament:

Quote

"using the collaboration as a promotional video for diabolo around the world"

this is the first time anyone mentions this I think? Before you said:

Quote

“I want more people to enjoy diabolo, both by practising and watching.”

now it is more clear to me. I'm curious what other people think about this.)

I just try to find arguments from you to understand why it’s important to have gender, nationality and age as selection criteria. The collab as 'a promotional video' makes it more clear to me.I already gave arguments why I don’t think these are good criteria.

At least a girl, at least a guy, at least 1 kid, at least 1 adult, and at least one person from each country that submitted.

But where do you put the line? Do we need an LGBTQI+ member to show that our community is open to those people? Do we need a race quota so we can have a token black/hispanic/white/asian guy/girl? Do we need a member from each of the major religions? These may seem arbitrary but in my eyes they are no more arbitrary than the ones you proposed.

I say equality of opportunity trumps equality of outcome, it doesn't matter who you are, all that matters is diabolo [}{]

Just to clarify, I don't accuse you, Pieter, of not following. I am just saying than the final goal, might be more subjective than rational, there may be people saying "any submission should be in", I hope they are not majority. I am glad you do not dislike the proposition of using this video to get more people around the world playing diabolo And yes, I had the idea floating my mind but I hadn't written it down. I like it, it helps me to evaluate more clearly most of the dilemmas involved.

But where do you put the line? Do we need an LGBTQI+ member to show that our community is open to those people? Do we need a race quota so we can have a token black/hispanic/white/asian guy/girl? Do we need a member from each of the major religions? These may seem arbitrary but in my eyes they are no more arbitrary than the ones you proposed.

I say equality of opportunity trumps equality of outcome, it doesn't matter who you are, all that matters is diabolo [}{]

I would say, let's draw the line in the collectives that have complained. And no more. The country rule in my eyes appears naturally. We always wrote from which country people are, it seem to be inherently important to us. The girls complain has been also raised, and I agree to it. And the kids one, I just like it

Also, these rules would not ensure the happiness of most of the people that complained this year. I see them as a small step.

I can see the point you are trying to make Wis. And I have a question for you. When did we find out a discussion was needed? As far as I am aware the need arose after Clément's video was published.

And here I jump Pieter's boat a bit. I felt the need earlier, when in previous years the people with most level was not motivated to participate. I felt something was wrong, like the project we were creating was not attractive enough. I now look at it from the "getting more people to play diabolo in the world" perspective, and I feel they should be in. People should be mind blown, and encouraged to join.

I just try to find arguments from you to understand why it’s important to have gender, nationality and age as selection criteria. The collab as 'a promotional video' makes it more clear to me.I already gave arguments why I don’t think these are good criteria.

Would you agree that these criteria make it possible to show to the world that diabolo really is for everybody? I can think of no better way than to have in as many different people as possible.

And here I jump Pieter's boat a bit. I felt the need earlier, when in previous years the people with most level was not motivated to participate. I felt something was wrong, like the project we were creating was not attractive enough. I now look at it from the "getting more people to play diabolo in the world" perspective, and I feel they should be in. People should be mind blown, and encouraged to join.

Now we are getting somewhere. It is true that there are more top players in the latest collab video. Which means some time has to be dedicated to their clips. Which in turn means that some other people were left out. I feel that what we have on our hands is a time issue more than anything. We'd have to either make longer videos or use shorter clips, or fewer appearances per player, to keep everybody happy. Just because there is more people now.

I've been following this for a while and thought I should chip in to the conversation.

Initially I was very disappointed to not be included in the video after putting in so much effort with filming, but after reflection, I realise that Clement was only doing what he thought would be best for the collab. And we all voted for him, so we also voted for his vision/goal of what it should be about. Any editor will have their own spin on things, with their own style.

So, it's seems like the next step is to move forward, as a group and create a vision for future collabs (I can see this is already happening).

I think if we continue to discuss the way we are, with long messages etc. some of us will put a lot of time and thought into it, and others not so much because they don't have enough time, interest or English speaking skills.

so, my proposal is this - tweak something that Void said earlier and brainstorm a list of what our vision statement should be, then vote on it.

It's extremely common to create a vision statement when starting a business, organisation or team. Once you have defined it, it makes it easier to then make smaller decisions/goals that are linked with it (it helps you to know if you're going in the right direction). I have done this many times with small companies etc. and it's extremely helpful. I know it sounds a little weird but please bare with me.

A vision is a little bit different from goals. Your vision is the overarching statement that the goals come from, and then after that the way the videos will look.

So, a vision statement could be something like this:

"To present to the world the most imaginative and best quality diabolo that diabolo.ca players can produce in the year."

or

"To create a video, specifically for diabolo.ca members, that encourages all diaboloists to participate in, regardless of skill, and be seen by the rest of the group"

So, once we have a vision statement, then the details of categorisation/what's included/goals can easily be listed.

e.g. if we choose the first vision statement the goals (which also should be voted upon), could look like this:

Only really clear, high quality video will be usedSpecific styles of music (funky, bpms, electronic etc.)A certain level of creativity is requiredA certain level of professionalismBackground needs to be xxxEditing and animation needs to be at a high enough level so as to be attractive to people from non-diabolo backgrounds

I know this list isn't much different from what has been said many times before with these videos, but at least if everyone's clear on what to expect, there won't be as many disappointments.

So, in summary, I think we should vote on a vision/direction, before we get into the nitty gritty of what should or should not be included.

I'm going to suggest that we either use these 2 statement or tweak them, while adding another 2 or 3 and then let's start the voting.

1) "To present to the world the most imaginative and best quality diabolo that diabolo.ca players can produce in the year."2) "To create a video, specifically for diabolo.ca members, that encourages all diaboloists to participate in, regardless of skill, and be seen by the rest of the group"

I've been following this for a while and thought I should chip in to the conversation.

Initially I was very disappointed to not be included in the video after putting in so much effort with filming, but after reflection, I realise that Clement was only doing what he thought would be best for the collab. And we all voted for him, so we also voted for his vision/goal of what it should be about. Any editor will have their own spin on things, with their own style.

I m think that you are wrong. If you decided to record something for the collaboration video you must be in, not out because a person decided that your tricks are not ok. As I said everyone that decided to record something and send it must be on the video. To the people that said next year practice more to be on the video. wtf? It was a collaboration video, not a contest between all to pick the best tricks. Also this year someone must to edit a video with all the tricks that were not in the official video and that way we can check how "bad" were our tricks to not be on the real video. (I don t know how to edit good videos.anyone?)solutions:a/Make a poll where we can get a real opinion of what people thing of the collaboration of this year.b/On the initial poll, the editor must say what he is going to do so we can decided betterc/video must be post it here before to post it to general public. So we can decide if is ok.

In regards to how to come to a decision, I am a massive fan of Richard's vision statement plan. It's simple and easy to carry out. Gather a few suggestions on the vision, vote. Then take a few suggestions about criteria for the video that follow along from that vision statement, vote.

In terms of what the video should be about, why cant we have both in a single video? (Inclusion and high quality).Would this 2016 collab really be that much "worse" if everyone was included? I don't know what videos were submitted, but I feel if you removed a few of the high skill ones and replaced them with others, the video as a whole would not suffer 'that' much. It would still have the "Look at the amazing things diabolo players are capable of now", but with an added "We are an inclusive community, come join us". I guess I'm proposing a vision statement that sits in between? 3 - "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo skill and creativity whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community". Something along those lines?

I also think a little editor-submitter feedback could also go a long way. If someone submitted a video of a high throw in their backyard for example, the editor could reply saying "Could you please film this again at an iconic location in your area, or get some friends and family around to cheer you on in the video", something to make it stand out. Similar can be said about camera quality, lighting etc.

I think a lot of the disappointment about not being included came from the expectation of being included. Clear guidelines (in the form of a vision statement) and editor-submitter communication should limit this disappointment.

We can then make a voting with all the options and people can vote as many options as they want, and the ones that pass a certain threshold are included in the final guidelines set. Something like that?

I like this view3 - "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo skill and creativity whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community". Something along those lines?

In general to any view I would add, ", and inviting to join", because I have that goal of attracting interes to enlarge the community.

That is why I proposed the two videos idea. The short one is for total foreigners with little time to spare. But if people mostly prefer one video to have the community spirit embedded in the project, that is fine with me. I can accept that the videos under 5 minutes, which truly have a change of getting to higher audience, come from individual players, or from smaller groups of diabolo players who carry a project together (wink, wink). Any if the big audience stays for 2 minutes or 4 from the 15 that is also fine.

I would love to see the Audience retention statistics from previous collabs, YouTube owners of the videos can show us this. I have thought of showing the one from the only collab I have edited, this one. To be honest the retention rate looks better than I expected. But well, in average people see half of the video...

I like the idea of feedback from the editor prior to video release, I feel like that would be a really good way to keep the level of the video high while still being able to include as many people as possible.

1) "To present to the world the most imaginative and best quality diabolo that diabolo.ca players can produce in the year, while encouraging non-membersto join". 2) "To create a video for diabolo.ca members (and inviting others to join), that encourages all diaboloists to participate in, regardless of skill, and be seen by the rest of the group"3) "To present to the world the highest level of diabolo skill and creativity whilst simultaneously portraying us as an inclusive and friendly community's. Also, inviting others to join".

Additional goals (for future discussion): - Include a 2nd 'community' video where all videos will be included.- ensure there are clear guidelines about what is expected in the video- provide editor-submitter feedback - Average audience retention for YouTube videos higher than 50%?

I say we get one more 'option' and then open a voting forum? Once we get a vote, we can move onto deciding the details for next years video etc.

“I am just saying than the final goal, might be more subjective than rational, there may be people saying "any submission should be in", I hope they are not majority.”

Indeed that’s why voting maybe isn’t the best solution :p If everyone who’s subjective feelings are hurt by this collab, is voting for including everyone just for their own happiness this could be the wrong vision on the purpose of diabolo on the long term. I think we have to be rational about that.People that are saying to include everyone didn't gave arguments for it, maybe voting is too easy and not rational enough...I'm just saying, I'm just saying... don't want to thwart your plans... What I would do is this: ask for argument pro or contra for any of the proposed options... I think we can find the best option by that, and then I mean the best option for diabolo and for the community.

@Richard@Wis Indeed that’s why voting maybe isn’t the best solution :p If everyone who’s subjective feelings are hurt by this collab, is voting for including everyone just for their own happiness this could be the wrong vision on the purpose of diabolo on the long term. I think we have to be rational about that.People that are saying to include everyone didn't gave arguments for it, maybe voting is too easy and not rational enough...I'm just saying, I'm just saying... don't want to thwart your plans... What I would do is this: ask for argument pro or contra for any of the proposed options... I think we can find the best option by that, and then I mean the best option for diabolo and for the community.

The right thing is do and poll where everyone of this forum can vote. The diabolo players that think, "Oh I don t wanna be on a diabolo collaboration video with people with average diabolo level" Just make a video appart .The diabolo-ca collaboration video is for everyone on the forum, not just for the people that play more diabolos.

I have no plans, Pieter, I am trying to find out what the majority wants, because I think that is the way to decide on common projects.

If there is no voting, how would we 'decide'? Just leave an open text for next editor? Ok. But for me without voting there is no decision, there is just a subset of interested people writing and writing. And in my eyes this subset would be too small.

I agree on why the voting should look simple, as Richard said so as many people involved participate. And I think we can still give arguments pro and against the options, before the voting.

In my eyes stating 'the option I like is the right thing' is a great way to avoid progress.- Pieter, maybe voting is not the best, because X- 7531, voting is the best, because I say itSo in my eyes voting is the right thing, but trying to use voting as an excuse to avoid giving arguments before the voting is one of the most wrong things I can imagine of. I mean in the universe, as a whole. VOTING is WHY we need ARGUMENTS. So let us keep talking, there is no rush for the voting.

Anyway I guess next editors will have in mind everything that was already said...

The diabolo players that think, "Oh I don t wanna be on a diabolo collaboration video with people with average diabolo level" Just make a video apart .The diabolo-ca collaboration video is for everyone on the forum, not just for the people that play more diabolos.

Well, I do not like this way of putting it. There is not such well defined group of people of do not want to appear in a video with average diabolo. What there is a diabolo community that 'because in the last years the video was too long and super repetitive', lost motivation to appear, this has happened to good and bad players. I SWEAR.

For me it is crucial to remember the balance 'attractive tricks/length of the video', it is not about not wanting to appear with average people, is about keeping a balance.

This year many people are saying 'this collaboration was wonderful, amazing to watch, but it is too restrictive'. Even the people that do not appear appreciate the quality. So let us find a middle ground. Please do not make this a conflict of 'beasts' against 'kids that started to play diabolo yesterday', it is not like that.

I need to understand a bit better what 7531 is saying. Do you mean that- Everybody should vote the rules for accepting/rejecting videos?- Everybody that sends any video should be included at least once?- Every second of video that is submitted to the editor needs to be included in the final footage?- All the players submitting videos to the collab should be included and should have the same amount of seconds on screen?

Once again, I think the most relevant complaints can be addressed by- No more than 2 videos per person- No more than X total amount on seconds on screen (I do not care how good they are, long suicide, integral combos are horrible to watch after 2 minutes, my opinion)- Ensuring minimum of country reps- Ensuring minimum female representationAnd once again, fulfulling this rules would probably require a modification of 0.5/1 minute in the 2016 collab.

0.5/1 minute of change and majority happy? This, dear sirs and madams is a truly fair middle ground I would say. The voting will surely prove me wrong, but I tried

Dnce again, I think the most relevant complaints can be addressed by- No more than 2 videos per person- No more than X total amount on seconds on screen (I do not care how good they are, long suicide, integral combos are horrible to watch after 2 minutes, my opinion)- Ensuring minimum of country reps- Ensuring minimum female representationAnd once again, fulfulling this rules would probably require a modification of 0.5/1 minute in the 2016 collab.

0.5/1 minute of change and majority happy? This, dear sirs and madams is a truly fair middle ground I would say. The voting will surely prove me wrong, but I tried

We keep coming back to things like these - a set of rules - and I still think it is a good idea.

I like the no more than 2 appearances per person thing in particular. Does this include EJC/Planet diabolo/other group shots? If someone is in a group shot does that mean they can have only one individual clip in?

The country reps shouldn't be too big a problem.

Ensuring there is a number of females, older people, young people (children) could be an idea. Maybe not a a rule but as something for the editor to pay attention to. Eg by posting updates/deadlines and encouraging certain groups (eg females) to send in clips. Of course nobody can be MADE to send a clip. I just think ensuring many different groups of people send in material could me made the editor's responsibility. S/he is the one person who knows what material has been sent in so far.

Thanks a million for providing that data, Samuli. I am asking editors of other years as well. Lucas said that a 30% of the video watched at the end of the video is a very good result, even for more for this kind of videos.

Pau, I agree with what you said. Some rules, some guidelines, we should be good.

In my eyes, videos where one person collaborate with other people could count as 1/3, so if you go out and meet others and make a collaboration in physical world you can appear more times. This promotes community spirit a lot, I believe.

I just watched the 18 minutes of Contact Juggling collab 2016 and it is quite repetitive, it is an all-in structure, even vertical videos. And the format is not only YT... we may consider starting to use FB in addition to YT, the difference in views is undeniable.