I take it you cannot answer the question put to you so it has to be me playing "mind games." I see.

Rather than answering the question you make a decision to try intimidation tactics - really sad.

Until you can come to grips with a simple question, you are in a state of denial. You can try to project this state of extreme denial on me - it is you that performs verbal gymnastics to obfuscate the question put to you.

you won't get the who,'til you get the how.

Blah - blah blah blah blog.

You keep making a choice to give your opinions and then deny it all at the same time.

Snap out of La La Land.

Cause and effect *pops* like a bubble when taken to the conclusion. What is left?

And do try to answer one simple question because evasion is not healthy.

yep.getting thru' a thick mesh of self-oriented conceptualisation.this 'choosing self',this condept being held vociferously,does it exist independently of verbal and conceptual designation?clearly not.

this 'choosing you',if it was so,you'd be 25 forever, fabulously wealthy, never get sick and never die,the world would be different, be of your choosing.either you're a crummy chooser or you don't get to choose ultimately.

mental vagrant wrote:How would you defind forgiving ones' selfs? Is there a model?

All forgiveness is self-forgiveness. If you feel the need to forgive another, make the rational connection of present perceptions with the fact that you are actually feeling a need to forgive yourself. Observe if this application of view to the present moment reorders the sense of reality, perhaps makes it less fixed upon memory, i.e. conditioning. If not this, then eventually some reordering of reality will tip the scales from remembering to never forgetting.

yep.getting thru' a thick mesh of self-oriented conceptualisation.this 'choosing self',this condept being held vociferously,does it exist independently of verbal and conceptual designation?clearly not.

Dennis; before you have a knee jerk reaction - do follow me here and think about it.

The self you are speaking of is a construct and in fact is a phantom. Its the ghost in the machine that is pure illusion. It is created as a survival mechanism for predictive ability. It seeks three things. To have things, to be someone and to feel something. It is constructed from memory that insulates from pain and seeks pleasure and its basis is built in surviving. It is an idea or concept that exists only in the mind - and here we agree.

What is missing in your answer is what in fact created the 'self' in the first place? What made a choice to build this 'self image' to project into the future in the mind as a predictive model of ideal reality?

If you post on this forum you are making choices. Every sage that has ever lived would agree. You make a choice to remain alive, follow the path of truth, and interact with others. Who or what is making these choices? We both agree it is not the created 'self' of illusion but the question still remains.

this 'choosing you',if it was so,you'd be 25 forever, fabulously wealthy, never get sick and never die,the world would be different, be of your choosing.either you're a crummy chooser or you don't get to choose ultimately.

This is the logical fallacy called the false dilemma.

you are a causal pattern.

I interact with the field of energy of a continuum of cause and effect. This is a tautology and is self evident because you are choosing to post.

It is truly open - it is beyond conceptualization but it can be experienced. In fact, you are experiencing what it is at this very moment.

There is no question you can ask me that I cannot answer because I know where and what the source is. That is not ego - that is the truth of my experience. Once you realize your thoughts do not come from the internal wiring but are downloaded from the photon, you have access to the quantum information because you are allowing your brain and central nervous system to be used as you make choices. If you believe the answer will appear - it will, because you are allowing yourself the experience and the limitations are lifted.

There is no question you cannot answer. When I read the scripture I ask myself "what did I mean when I wrote this"?

it doesn't depend on conceptualisation.quit filling it with stories of 'I' and 'choices'.

You are retreating into conceptual frameworks again. Your conceptual framework is the idea that there are no concepts. You conceive of emptiness and yet you have thoughts about emptiness.

profound silence.

This is truly the infinite field. When thought is absent the infinite field manifests. That does not mean we have no thoughts or we do not make choices - that is denial.

I am that is far enough.leave it at that.

That may have been good enough for you but I had to seek further. This just did not get it for me. I did get the answer I was seeking after many years.

on the play of causality,even science is concluding that conditions like alcoholism and criminality are directly related to specific genetic configurations,caused.

Genetics certainly plays a part in tendencies but it does not determine the outcome. There are many who are born in dysfunctional families and break the chain of addiction. In fact; all the sages of history did it. Choice is what we do - it is just the stunningly obvious.

It is truly open - it is beyond conceptualization but it can be experienced. In fact, you are experiencing what it is at this very moment.

There is no question you can ask me that I cannot answer because I know where and what the source is. That is not ego - that is the truth of my experience. Once you realize your thoughts do not come from the internal wiring but are downloaded from the photon, you have access to the quantum information because you are allowing your brain and central nervous system to be used as you make choices. If you believe the answer will appear - it will, because you are allowing yourself the experience and the limitations are lifted.

Downloaded? This is just more separation. There you go, that dirty word believe, you believe the answer will appear, and it does. The same old pattern, with a new story.

Beingof1 wrote:There is no question you cannot answer. When I read the scripture I ask myself "what did I mean when I wrote this"?

You're still seeking, you haven't "found" anything.

Beingof1 wrote:

it doesn't depend on conceptualisation.quit filling it with stories of 'I' and 'choices'.

You are retreating into conceptual frameworks again. Your conceptual framework is the idea that there are no concepts. You conceive of emptiness and yet you have thoughts about emptiness.

profound silence.

This is truly the infinite field. When thought is absent the infinite field manifests. That does not mean we have no thoughts or we do not make choices - that is denial.

The infinite void, is not manifest it is, was, and always will be. Space is not the 3 dimensional extent that events and objects occur in, consciousness is, and all is subjective, having no thought is impossible, but the kind of thought one has is critical. I can't even say you're in denial, I think you're just not there yet.

Beingof1 wrote:

I am that is far enough.leave it at that.

That may have been good enough for you but I had to seek further. This just did not get it for me. I did get the answer I was seeking after many years.

Have you never stopped seeking?

Beingof1 wrote:

on the play of causality, even science is concluding that conditions like alcoholism and criminality are directly related to specific genetic configurations,caused.

Genetics certainly plays a part in tendencies but it does not determine the outcome. There are many who are born in dysfunctional families and break the chain of addiction. In fact; all the sages of history did it. Choice is what we do - it is just the stunningly obvious.

The illusion of choice is caused by a belief (there's that dirty word again) in separation. If you truly have choice I want you to change the moment you find yourself in, make the night day, or make yourself appear someplace you're not. Seeing reality eliminates choice, one moment follows the next moment, there is no time for choice.#

You are retreating into conceptual frameworks again. Your conceptual framework is the idea that there are no concepts. You conceive of emptiness and yet you have thoughts about emptiness.

there's conceptual framework yes, which of itself is useless,then there's the experiential side of it.

the recognition of emptiness breaks thru' the sense of separation,self-centeredness is for the most part eliminated,what is seen is an intricate web of interconnectivity.no man is an island.there's an eruption of love and connection possibilities,the focus is on the causes of suffering and the sense of a separate self is that cause.

it's not said there are no concepts,what is said is that emptiness reflects true nature or ultimate reality.

There is no question you can ask me that I cannot answer because I know where and what the source is. That is not ego - that is the truth of my experience. Once you realize your thoughts do not come from the internal wiring but are downloaded from the photon, you have access to the quantum information because you are allowing your brain and central nervous system to be used as you make choices. If you believe the answer will appear - it will, because you are allowing yourself the experience and the limitations are lifted.

What you've contributed there is a matrix of causes/conditions, pieces/parts, thinker/thought.What is of causes/conditions is found to lack inherent existence, does not exist from its own side.what is form is empty (causes/conditions).empty is empty because only where there is form is there empty.Silence.

Genetics certainly plays a part in tendencies but it does not determine the outcome. There are many who are born in dysfunctional families and break the chain of addiction. In fact; all the sages of history did it. Choice is what we do - it is just the stunningly obvious.

conditions arise out of causes, they are not fixed and are transformable.criminality doesn't need a self choosing criminality,the condition is a path that is trod and it does what it does.

a sage is a condition,to say there's a self choosing is merely narrative.

It is truly open - it is beyond conceptualization but it can be experienced. In fact, you are experiencing what it is at this very moment.

There is no question you can ask me that I cannot answer because I know where and what the source is. That is not ego - that is the truth of my experience. Once you realize your thoughts do not come from the internal wiring but are downloaded from the photon, you have access to the quantum information because you are allowing your brain and central nervous system to be used as you make choices. If you believe the answer will appear - it will, because you are allowing yourself the experience and the limitations are lifted.

Downloaded? This is just more separation. There you go, that dirty word believe, you believe the answer will appear, and it does. The same old pattern, with a new story.

What are you talking about? A story?

I know; why don`t you use some reason, logic and common sense and put my statement to the test? Or would you just rather file this under Cathy`s story?

Separation? How amusing you see what I said as separating. If you are interconnected with the universal patterns, how can you be separate?

Beingof1 wrote:There is no question you cannot answer. When I read the scripture I ask myself "what did I mean when I wrote this"?

You're still seeking, you haven't "found" anything.

Says the sock puppet.

Beingof1 wrote:

it doesn't depend on conceptualisation.quit filling it with stories of 'I' and 'choices'.

You are retreating into conceptual frameworks again. Your conceptual framework is the idea that there are no concepts. You conceive of emptiness and yet you have thoughts about emptiness.

profound silence.

This is truly the infinite field. When thought is absent the infinite field manifests. That does not mean we have no thoughts or we do not make choices - that is denial.

The infinite void, is not manifest it is, was, and always will be. Space is not the 3 dimensional extent that events and objects occur in, consciousness is, and all is subjective, having no thought is impossible, but the kind of thought one has is critical. I can't even say you're in denial, I think you're just not there yet.

You are getting all hung up in your emotional 'word triggers'. You are also making assumptions with no substance whatsoever. This tells me you are but a guppy trying to pretend to be all grown up and your parents will approve of your noble path.

And how do you know anything about me at all? Do tell, can you read minds?

Beingof1 wrote:

I am that is far enough.leave it at that.

That may have been good enough for you but I had to seek further. This just did not get it for me. I did get the answer I was seeking YOUR EMOTIONAL after many years.

Have you never stopped seeking?

Here we go with more assumptions - you must be able to read minds. How are those supernatural powers working for ya?

And one more thing - DO NOT SCREW WITH MY POST AND PRETEND IT IS ME TALKING. That is dishonest.

Beingof1 wrote:

on the play of causality, even science is concluding that conditions like alcoholism and criminality are directly related to specific genetic configurations,caused.

Genetics certainly plays a part in tendencies but it does not determine the outcome. There are many who are born in dysfunctional families and break the chain of addiction. In fact; all the sages of history did it. Choice is what we do - it is just the stunningly obvious.

The illusion of choice is caused by a belief (there's that dirty word again) in separation. If you truly have choice I want you to change the moment you find yourself in, make the night day, or make yourself appear someplace you're not. Seeing reality eliminates choice, one moment follows the next moment, there is no time for choice.#

Supernatural powers combined with logical fallacies is a dangerous combination. You just presented what is called the false dilemma backed up by not connecting all the dots, pronouncing judgment, and defending your world view like it is an article of faith.

You are so full of your own answers - can read my mind - and 'know exactly what the infinite is' - and you are sure it is me that 'has the problem'.

Until you start asking questions instead of making assumptions - I do not have the inclination to reinforce the idea you have arrived and I have not game.

You are retreating into conceptual frameworks again. Your conceptual framework is the idea that there are no concepts. You conceive of emptiness and yet you have thoughts about emptiness.

there's conceptual framework yes, which of itself is useless,then there's the experiential side of it.

STOP - stop right here and ponder what you said. Concepts are not "useless". Otherwise you could not survive dude. You use concepts every day.

If they are useless as you say, how do you survive without concepts? That is not possible and you use concepts each and every time you post. The idea that "there's conceptual framework yes, which of itself is useless" is itself a concept. You are in contradiction and that is why you cannot answer the question put to you. You have to competing memes in your worldview but you have picked a favorite and anything that appears to threaten that view is attacked to support the concept that there are no concepts.

the recognition of emptiness breaks thru' the sense of separation,self-centeredness is for the most part eliminated,what is seen is an intricate web of interconnectivity.

This is contradiction. If all is emptiness, how can it be connected? In fact; this is the grandad of all philosophical contradictions and until you resolve this, you have only understanding to a point.

Look; If all is emptiness, there is nothing to connect.

"As lightening flashes from the East to the West, so shall the appearing of the Son of Man be."-- Jesus

no man is an island.there's an eruption of love and connection possibilities,the focus is on the causes of suffering and the sense of a separate self is that cause.

This is true. What is it or who is it that makes the connection?

You see; understanding emptiness allows us to see through the phantom of the physical universe and the manufactured self. Once this gigantic dilemma is solved ( and you have done this unlike most) you are still left holding the bag of choice.

It is the classic argument of Eastern and Western thought that seem to clash. The Eastern religions and philosophies put great emphasis on this emptiness that you speak of. Western thought puts great emphasis on individual choice. Both are correct and on the surface appears to be a contradiction.

This surface contradiction seems to be the last gatekeeper to enlightenment or illumination in most cases.

Who or what decided to come to Genius Forum and post?

it's not said there are no concepts,what is said is that emptiness reflects true nature or ultimate reality.

You said concepts are useless - that is not true at all. Concepts cannot free us but logic most certainly tells us if there is delusion. Should we go by the concept of emptiness or what our experience is? I will come down on the side of experience every single time no matter what the issue is. The reason; there is nothing else other than experience - it is all that there is.

There is no question you can ask me that I cannot answer because I know where and what the source is. That is not ego - that is the truth of my experience. Once you realize your thoughts do not come from the internal wiring but are downloaded from the photon, you have access to the quantum information because you are allowing your brain and central nervous system to be used as you make choices. If you believe the answer will appear - it will, because you are allowing yourself the experience and the limitations are lifted.

What you've contributed there is a matrix of causes/conditions, pieces/parts, thinker/thought.

If that is all you see - you need to look again without your emptiness worldview filter on. You are using that as a pacifier. Do you walk? If you do you use concepts and thought.

What is of causes/conditions is found to lack inherent existence, does not exist from its own side.what is form is empty (causes/conditions).empty is empty because only where there is form is there empty.Silence.

OK

Genetics certainly plays a part in tendencies but it does not determine the outcome. There are many who are born in dysfunctional families and break the chain of addiction. In fact; all the sages of history did it. Choice is what we do - it is just the stunningly obvious.

conditions arise out of causes, they are not fixed and are transformable.criminality doesn't need a self choosing criminality,the condition is a path that is trod and it does what it does.

a sage is a condition,to say there's a self choosing is merely narrative.

[/quote]

You need to pull your fingers out of your ears and stop chanting your mantra if we are going to communicate at all.

Beingof1 wrote:Separation? How amusing you see what I said as separating. If you are interconnected with the universal patterns, how can you be separate?

We are not interconnected with the universal patterns, we are universal pattern.

Beingof1 wrote:Says the sock puppet.

pretty much yes.

Beingof1 wrote:You are getting all hung up in your emotional 'word triggers'. You are also making assumptions with no substance whatsoever. This tells me you are but a guppy trying to pretend to be all grown up and your parents will approve of your noble path.

And how do you know anything about me at all? Do tell, can you read minds?

No but you apparently can.

Beingof1 wrote:And one more thing - DO NOT SCREW WITH MY POST AND PRETEND IT IS ME TALKING. That is dishonest.

Are you saying you never said:

That may have been good enough for you but I had to seek further. This just did not get it for me. I did get the answer I was seeking after many years.

Who is getting defensive?

and fyi emptiness does not mean nothing, there is no gate, thus no gatekeeper, empty, empty, empty .... you can't live with the unknown so you invent answers.

Beingof1 wrote: We are discussing a state of being. When you introduce being - choice arises. To say anything else is denial .....When we look at philosophy form one side, we do not make a choice because we are caused. On the flip side, we choose the path to enlightenment.

It's more like a path of realization. Choice is a perception of the moment ("I now decide") but upon examination it's not a moment without causes. Things are leading up to it. Many things. Where's the moment gone?

Personally I prefer to talk about responsibility, which is the ability to respond as fully as possible to whatever is occurring. This ability varies with nature.

The need for the idea of choice seems quite similar to the need for the idea of a chooser or a controller. Control and power over life needs to be asserted with this simple ritual of "me". It's quite powerful and certainly understandable!

If they are useless as you say, how do you survive without concepts? That is not possible and you use concepts each and every time you post. The idea that "there's conceptual framework yes, which of itself is useless" is itself a concept. You are in contradiction and that is why you cannot answer the question put to you. You have to competing memes in your worldview but you have picked a favorite and anything that appears to threaten that view is attacked to support the concept that there are no concepts.

When I look from 'my' experience,'God' only creates What Is.That's when I see all the struggle and effort is what 'I' add.Transformation doesn't require that implication or that belief system or that concept or that interpretation or that context.

Concepts are needed to break the dependency on concepts.

We don't experience 'quantum reality', we experience 'classical reality' so to speak.quantum reality is theoretical.

what you call 'choices are possibilities of form.chocolate or vanilla.samsara or nirvana.eliminating the causes of suffering could then be a responsibility or a path of wisdom or a context to live out of.

Beingof1:Separation? How amusing you see what I said as separating. If you are interconnected with the universal patterns, how can you be separate?

Cathy:We are not interconnected with the universal patterns, we are universal pattern.

Answer the question - this one:"If you are interconnected with the universal patterns, how can you be separate"?

Cathy:You're still seeking, you haven't "found" anything.

Beingof1:Says the sock puppet.

Cathy:pretty much yes.

Cathy 1 and BO1 0

Cathy beats the crap out of her created sock puppet and is crowned the Zen Princess.

Standing ovation for the new champion.

Beingof1:You are getting all hung up in your emotional 'word triggers'. You are also making assumptions with no substance whatsoever. This tells me you are but a guppy trying to pretend to be all grown up and your parents will approve of your noble path.

And how do you know anything about me at all? Do tell, can you read minds?

Cathy:No but you apparently can.

That was penetrating. I am beaten and it is pointless to resist your glowing and searing enlightened state that directly addresses all questions of the human dynamic.

Beingof1:And one more thing - DO NOT SCREW WITH MY POST AND PRETEND IT IS ME TALKING. That is dishonest.

Cathy:Are you saying you never said:

That may have been good enough for you but I had to seek further. This just did not get it for me. I did get the answer I was seeking after many years.

That is exactly what I wrote. However; when you quoted me it appeared like this:

That may have been good enough for you but I had to seek further. This just did not get it for me. I did get the answer I was seeking YOUR EMOTIONAL after many years.

Now you are resorting to being dishonest to cover up your dishonesty. How is that working for you?

Who is getting defensive?

and fyi emptiness does not mean nothing, there is no gate, thus no gatekeeper, empty, empty, empty

And you know this because......?

I just appreciate so much unsupported sweeping statements that have no premise.

.... you can't live with the unknown so you invent answers.

Assumptions backed up by suppositions and conjectures stated as fact. Do you ever ask questions?

BO1: We are discussing a state of being. When you introduce being - choice arises. To say anything else is denial .....When we look at philosophy form one side, we do not make a choice because we are caused. On the flip side, we choose the path to enlightenment.

Diebert:It's more like a path of realization. Choice is a perception of the moment ("I now decide") but upon examination it's not a moment without causes. Things are leading up to it. Many things. Where's the moment gone?

Thank you for addressing the issue. Wow - post after post with evasion and sidestepping and so, I appreciate the direct response.

Now to ypur post.You can say the quantum soup that started before the big bang is making up my mind but that is you making that statement.

Intelligence as well as counsciousness are fluid in definition. Its a moving target and so the conlusions reached can be misleading.

You cannot have another reality because there is only one, yours. The fundamental fabric of reality is you.

All speech, action, and behavior are fluctuations of consciousness. All life emerges from, and is sustained in, consciousness. The whole universe is the expression of consciousness. The reality of the universe is one unbounded ocean of consciousness in motion.It requires an infinite amount of energy to animate your consciousness. I say this because you are in a state of eternal flux. If the state of the universe as well as your state of being is never ending change - you experience an infinite amount of energy at all times.

If you do the math the choice then becomes not finite but infinite and therefore; transcends linear choice dictated by cause and effect. This is just hard logic with no wiggle room.

Now you can say cause and effect stretch back and forward to the infinite but you cannot then say consciousness is extricated and deprived of choice. That would not be logical at all.

David quinn once said:

It's not a matter of "telling" yourself that everything is causally-created and illusory, like a religious chant. Rather, it's a matter of correcting the habitual delusion of regarding objects as seperate, independent entities with the aid of a consciously-understood truth.

Personally I prefer to talk about responsibility, which is the ability to respond as fully as possible to whatever is occurring. This ability varies with nature.

I agree. I would much rather be competent than confident especially when parachuting.

The need for the idea of choice seems quite similar to the need for the idea of a chooser or a controller. Control and power over life needs to be asserted with this simple ritual of "me". It's quite powerful and certainly understandable!

You are right of course and on this idea the ego gathers its strength. That is not what I am saying however.

I am saying when you choose it is the Totality making a choice.

The universe and reality are not a subset of consciousness. Equally true is that consciousness is not a subset of the totality. They are one and the same.To believe they are somehow separate is to try to divide awareness from itself.This is the great trap of comparisons and duality.

The absolute sense of universal Being is realized only when consciousness, void of all that it makes conscious, loses itself in the Self, being purified of all relation to personality.

If they are useless as you say, how do you survive without concepts? That is not possible and you use concepts each and every time you post. The idea that "there's conceptual framework yes, which of itself is useless" is itself a concept. You are in contradiction and that is why you cannot answer the question put to you. You have to competing memes in your worldview but you have picked a favorite and anything that appears to threaten that view is attacked to support the concept that there are no concepts.

When I look from 'my' experience,'God' only creates What Is.That's when I see all the struggle and effort is what 'I' add.Transformation doesn't require that implication or that belief system or that concept or that interpretation or that context.

It requires the realization of what you spoke of - absolutely true. We see through the phantom of the created identity to experience union with reality. Reality is the absence of separation.

Concepts are needed to break the dependency on concepts.

True - but they are needed to function in the physical plane.

We don't experience 'quantum reality', we experience 'classical reality' so to speak.quantum reality is theoretical.

Yes you do. Have you ever had the same day twice? This tells us we are in an infinite stream of consciousness. Consciousness can never exhaust itself in experience, thought and momentum.

You are performing the hyper task of awareness right now. Look around the room you are in and start counting the objects. You are aware of an infinite amount of things and all done in a finite amount of time.

Where does reality begin and your perception end?

what you call 'choices are possibilities of form.chocolate or vanilla.samsara or nirvana.eliminating the causes of suffering could then be a responsibility or a path of wisdom or a context to live out of.

It requires the realization of what you spoke of - absolutely true. We see through the phantom of the created identity to experience union with reality. Reality is the absence of separation.

In the ordinary/everyday world what our culture has taught us is that our self is an independent, inherently existing entity.that the self is on its own in a battle of wits,that the measure of the self is judged by the quantity of possessions it has.that there are many selves sectioned and partitioned off from each other.that reality is essentially a warzone.that the self must shore up and exploit allies to win wars.

its such as that that emptiness refutes by showing that the self is not an independent, inherently existing entity.

it follows that a belief in an independent, inherently existing self is the cause of suffering.

the experiential recognition of emptiness opens the mind up as a new beginning or radical transformation.this new beginning or Beginner's Mind is the restoration of harmony and peace and an eruption of love and astonishment as to how things exist.

what can be said is that conventional reality (the rules believed in within the human family)