Talk:Umberto Bossi

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Saying that "Padania gains attention today only for the Miss Padania beauty contest" is very incorrect. Padania is simply Northern Italy, and the two expressions are widely used as synonyms, even in relevant and respected essays: Fondazione Agnelli, La Padania, una regione italiana in Europa, Edizioni della Fondazione Agnelli, Torino, 1992.

Moreover: I think Federalism and Devolution are, quite obviously, words with a meaning. In Italy their meaning is even clearer, considered the currently centralised nature of the government. I don't think that calling them "buzzwords" is anything near appropriate...

There are a lot of other things that are quite wrong. I'm sorry that, right now, I don't have the time to help making this article a little less biased, and above all a little more reliable... I really hope I'll have it one day, or that somebody will..

As an Italian from Arona, on the border with the province of Varese where the Lega has a stronghold, I never heard the word "Padania" in my whole life before it was invented by Bossi. I'm not excluding someone might have used it before, but it is just as likely as someone saying Slartibartfast before Douglas Adams thought of the name.

Usage of the word Padania is currently a clear statement of political attitude. The Agnelli foundation is based in northern Italy, and not known for left-wing sympathies.

Italy is absolutely not especially centralised. France, for example, is too in pretty much the same extent. --Orzetto 08:40, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I have to say this comment is broadly incorrect, and your logic is deeply flawed.

The "bias" of that link is just as *irrelevant* as it can possibly get: that link documents the usage of the word Padania way before its popularization by Lega Nord. As I said in the previous comment, Padania is a territory, and the word definitely wasn't "invented by Bossi" as you say.

Then, saying (or implying, like you did) that the Agnelli Foundation is somehow close to Lega Nord is really not honest, to say the least. The Agnelli family (the ones behind Agnelli foundation, owners of the Fiat group) is well known to be strongly against the current right-wing government, and *especially* against Lega Nord and the devolution proposal. The Agnelli family has a strong influence on two of the three best selling Italian newspapers (Corriere della Sera, La Stampa), whose editorial line reflects a strong opposition to Berlusconi's government and especially to Lega Nord and federalism.

Finally: when saying "Italy is absolutely not especially centralised", you're also stating the opposite of the truth. Many of the most important western countries (USA, UK, Germany, Spain, Switzerland, Canada...) have a federal model of government. Italy (like France) doesn't, and has a centralised model of government. This is hardly disputable...

I also noticed you took away the first paragraph - which was the *only one* which actually provided some insight into the history and the actual political stances of Lega Nord - almost in its entirety.

At the same time, you left untouched the parts that define federalism and devolution as.. "buzzwords".

There goes the NPOV... :-)

I'm just sorry I don't have the time to contribute directly to this article, beyond pointing out its bias. I only hope that the people who put their hands on it in the future can tell the difference between intellectual honesty and bias, and between facts and opinions.

U. B.

[edit, 10/04/2005: I've substituted my full name with my initials, for Google reasons. While I stand behind everything I say (my full name is still available in previous versions of the talk page), discussing things with anonymous people is a waste of time I'm not particularly proud of. :)]

P.S. Btw: I've no affiliation with Lega Nord (actually I strongly disagree with LN on certain issues) nor with any other political party. But I think devolution and federalism in Italy (that is, Lega Nord's main battle) would be very desirable things. Some of the reasons are in the quite insightful paragraph that, sadly, you decided to cancel almost in its entirety.

I am afraid you are just another troll. Let's debunk your statements one by one...

Your link contains just the usual propaganda crap. I'm from the North and I have not lived in a cave. The adjective "padano" is common, but "Padania" is an invention of the Northern League. This is a fact, and if you want to fight facts, welcome to the hard world. As I said, the word might have incidentally been uttered before, but it was and is not a common word for northern Italy. The fact that an article feels the need to demonstrate the common use of Padania is actually most telling. Proof of the fact it is bullshit? Run a google search with the word Padania, and see just how many links are not related to Lega Nord.

About Agnelli. Next what, the Agnelli family is going to become a den of communists? Whenever did they attack the current government (that has been attacked by pretty much anybody anyway)? How comes that Corriere della Sera would be "strongly against the government"? You are quite blatant in your lies, how would you characterise La Repubblica, L'Unità or even Il Manifesto then? Remember you cannot bullshit that freely, there are other Italians around.

Italy was centralised until the 70s, then regions and provinces were introduced. Regions can currently even impose their own taxes (so the government can claim they are lowering taxes when they are actually forcing the regions to increase them, but this is another story). 25% of the regions have a special statute that grants bilinguism in some areas, and in Sicily's case even a Parliament instead of a council. How is this centralised?

The first paragraph (that I did not "delete", I condensed it in only one useful sentence) contained vast amounts of POV material, most of it unsubstantiated:

"Northern Italians are basically disappointed[...]" Implies that all northern Italians support the League. In actuality it's a (however noisy and uncivilized) minority.

"the money collected in Northern Italy has always been wasted by the Italian ruling class[...]" absolute claim (i.e. hard to substantiate, only one exception is enough to break it. Eg, was Falcone's salary and the maxi-trials against mafia a "waste"?). Unsubstantiated anyway, even if not absolute. And, last but not least, it's plain false: official statistics (not recent, but I saw that on the Lombardy TGR some years ago) indicated that more money came into Lombardy from the central state than the other way around.

"wages for useless state employees (Italy has more civil servants than the whole USA!)" beside that, again, you should either demonstrate they are useless or revert to "perceived to be useless", the parenthesised comment is ludicrous. First, you don't use exclamation marks. Second, who said that? About what year? Counting in all the 50 US states? Counting in the Italian state companies, like Eni and Enel, that are now privatised? Defining how a "civil servant", anyway? I call bullshit.

"Bossi advocates more fiscal autonomy for Italian regions in order to break this chain and invest Southern politicians and Southern citizens with responsibility." This is just as propagandistic as it gets. The only thing Bossi wants to invest terroni with, is a truck (don't think the pun works in English, but I could not resist). Anyone who has lived in Northern Italy knows that there is no more xenophobic party than Lega Nord. If you know one, one only, mention it (and substantiate). As far as I know, no mayor has ever suggested shooting immigrants as animals except Gentilini. No one has been seen spraying immigrants on trains to disinfect the car (was that Borghezio on the Turin-Milan?). No one else has suggested apartheid (since anti-jewish laws of the late thirties) as documented, and substantiated, in the article about Lega Nord.

Of course Federalism and devolution are buzzwords. Politicians (not just Lega's) have been talking about that for over ten years now, and the only result is a reform that is going to be buried next year by the new majority. Anyway, the word "buzzword" does not have any inherently negative characterisation, it only means it is being overused, and I hope you are not as silly as to try to tell me "federalism" has not been in every politician's program in the last ten years. Most federations are born out of more states uniting (US, UK, USSR, Germany, ...), not one being split. In Canada, "federalist" is the opposite of "separatist".

I do not believe for a picosecond that you are not a Lega supporter. Sorry, that sort of self-NPOVization does not really work. And of course, the NPOV flag is going to be removed, until some real NPOV issues are found in the article... because, in case you have not noticed, this article is about Bossi, and all your comments were about him [edit: Lega Nord and Padania] (This is not an invitation to go trolling on Lega Nord or Padania, though). --Orzetto 18:27, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Maybe it would be appropriate for you to revise your comments, bringing them back to a pertinent level for a reasoned discussion. I really hope this isn't the way you chose to convince the world that your POV is Neutral...

U. B.

[edit, 10/04/2005: I've substituted my full name with my initials, for Google reasons. While I stand behind everything I say (my full name is still available in previous versions of the talk page), discussing things with anonymous people is a waste of time I'm not particularly proud of. :)]

P.S. Oh, and maybe it would be nice to have the courtesy to sign comments with one's full name (or at least to make it available somewhere) like I did.

Of course, just in case you feel like standing behind what you say, like I do. :)

You know, chi si loda si sbroda. Your accuracy would best be described by others (see section below, written by someone else).

I am putting in your mouth nothing, I quoted the sections I removed since they were POV, and proceeded to explain my reasons for considering them biased. I see no countering on your side, only petty, unsubstantiated whining.

I don't have a neutral POV, nor do I need to. The article has to.

The NPOV notice is going to be removed until you point out something specific in the article which is false, inaccurate or POV. You cannot flag an article with a {{NPOV}} only because there is not enough praise for your personal hero. And if you must, use {{NPOV-section}} in the appropriate section.

For the record, one is identified by his nick on Wikipedia. Register yourself, and stop hiding behing a dynamic IP.

Finally, nice how you claim not to have time on your hands, while it seems you have enough to waste here. --Orzetto 20:12, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

The following sentence, just introduced by this anonymous person ("Orzetto"), is sadly symptomatic of how Neutral the POV of the article is.

"A rumour that has not been countered by Bossi is that he gave a fake graduation party, allegedly to convince his mother he had graduated."

:)

But this person is right on one thing: I have neither the time nor the will to keep up with vandalism, let alone when it comes from anonymous people.

The worst thing is, people like these are *seriously* compromising Wikipedia's reputation.

U. B.

[edit, 10/04/2005: I've substituted my full name with my initials, for Google reasons. While I stand behind everything I say (my full name is still available in previous versions of the talk page), discussing things with anonymous people is a waste of time I'm not particularly proud of. :)]

The sentence I inserted is a widely known story. Since Bossi never denied that, I inserted that. The sentence is perfectly NPOV, since it is stated clearly that it is a rumour. Even "Some people believe the earth is flat" is NPOV, for that sake. If you have any source of Bossi denying this, well spit out.

You still don't get, however, that {{NPOV}}disagree. An article is POV if it is biased. You still have to point out one biased sentence in the article.

Last, you repeat this wannabe-snobbish claim of not having enough time, yet you continuously re-insert the NPOV template. and write in this page. --Orzetto 16:27, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

While I know nothing in particular about Bossi or his politics, biased comments such as "the unfairness of Italian taxation," "wages for useless state employees," "the money collected in Northern Italy has always been wasted by the Italian ruling class," etc., have no place in a Wikipedia article. At worst, they should be presented as points of view on a particular side of a conflict, not as objective fact. Bias sneaks in later in the article (less egregiously) via the "some people say" method: "often described," "compared by critics," "despised by many," etc.

This article should be flagged and rewritten.

Fixed to the best of my capabilities. --Orzetto 09:11, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Bossi wasn not sentenced to 8 months uin prison for bribe but for a public donation, by Montedison, which broke the law concerning the public finanicng of political parties. The main role in this case was played by Patelli, the treasurer of the party, who was later expelled. the article also fails to mention that the money were returned by the party after the illegality of the action came up. I have noticed several other events narrated with a clear bias but I will comment on those another time. regards Alphacento — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.8.94.160 (talk) 03:20, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I reverted the following edit by 62.101.126.228 as it did not include any reference for verification, did not fit in well with the flow of the article, referred to unknown individuals and/or did not provide links to explain whom they are, and needs improved grammar:

"Umberto Bossi is often described by some as a neo-fascist, racist...low-cultured maverick."--I would certainly count myself as one of those people, but I think this should be re-worded less strongly for the sake of maintaining the article's neutrality, unless of course you can quote it from a respectable source (as in, not necessarily someone without any kind of political bias, but someone whose opinion gets things shifted in Italy like a govt. minister or someone). It's like those band articles in which the NPOV rules are easily swerved by prefixing a statement with "Some people say that..." or something along those lines; eg. "Many consider Iron Maiden to be the undisputed greatest metal band of all time"....d'you see what I'm getting at here?

To some degree I agree with what you're getting at (though try more appropriate section headings next time, please), but those very terms are often used in describing this individual. Many describe Adolf Hitler as a bad man (thank you Godwin's Law) and Mahatma Gandhi as a good man... sure you can find some praising one or villainising the other; but there is a verified stance stating the former of each viewpoint. I'd say that these descriptions fit the common accusations made toward his creeds. If someone can think of a better way to phrase it, have at it. --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 23:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Is this article currently not in violation of WP:BLP? --LC 01:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

A number of the Controversies on the Lega Nord article center around Umberto Bossi and have specific quotes. Maybe some of that material could be worked in here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.215.67 (talk) 21:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention there are various controversies focused on Bossi himself; what about the fact that he spent aimlessly 20 years or so in university and that he lied to his first wife about being a doctor? [1][2]. Oh, and he still had a long way to go to finish hist studies...[3].

Please note that the link in "Interview" doesn't lead to the title it is supposed to point. (May be the article had been removed or it was directed to a temporary page ...) Anyway it should be fixed. The problem is "how", since I was unable to re-find that article again.

Similar problems happen with the citations and references, especially if taken from old newspapers (they seems to remove old articles after a certain date). I cannot figure out how we can circumvent these kind of problems.