Uh huh but ya know the upgrade from 60 watts to 80 watts alone can sometimes be daunting to some... And sometimes it's hard to tell if there's any remarkable diff between one with a master and one who doesn't especially when there's a blackout...

Uh huh but ya know the upgrade from 60 watts to 80 watts alone can sometimes be daunting to some... And sometimes it's hard to tell if there's any remarkable diff between one with a master and one who doesn't especially when there's a blackout...

One does not have to be awakened to be a teacher. One is a teacher for all those that are at a "lower" level of development than they are. Of course, if the teacher is not awakened, then they cannot take somebody to awakening, just to the level they are currently at. Most of us though are nowhere near awakening, or, in Dzogchen terms, capable of stabilising our view, so there is always plenty of room for benefiting from a (non-awakened) teacher.

Sherlock wrote:Can a non-awakened teacher, nevertheless with good intentions and an understanding of the teachings, still give teachings which will benefit the students?

Sure, but such a person should be honest with themselves and their students and even if they give empowerments, should never insist, encourage, or even subtly imply that their students should regard them as "buddhas".

Malcolm wrote:Sure, but such a person should be honest with themselves and their students and even if they give empowerments, should never insist, encourage, or even subtly imply that their students should regard them as "buddhas".

How much use would empowerments from such a person be? Wouldn't it be cause for rebirth in the lower realms for both teacher and student?

Sherlock wrote:Can a non-awakened teacher, nevertheless with good intentions and an understanding of the teachings, still give teachings which will benefit the students?

Sure, but such a person should be honest with themselves and their students and even if they give empowerments, should never insist, encourage, or even subtly imply that their students should regard them as "buddhas".

Yes, I've witnessed this several times:

'If you regard me as a Buddha you will receive the blessing of a Buddha, if you regard me as an ordinary being you will only receive the blessings of an ordinary being'.

In other words, if you gain nothing from the empowerment I give you, it's all your fault. It usually goes hand-in-hand with group encouragement to 'impute' the teacher as a Buddha and regard that as the correct 'appearance to mind'.

Those who buy into this may also then be encouraged or required to extend this to regard the teacher as a living Buddha and be wide open to exploitation by the institution touting this guru's wares.

It is hard for an organisation to survive in this cult-like form without the head being sold as a charismatic figure whose very presence should lead to awe and trembling by the faithful - well, OK, enough trembling for the cash to leave their pockets anyway!

Malcolm wrote:Sure, but such a person should be honest with themselves and their students and even if they give empowerments, should never insist, encourage, or even subtly imply that their students should regard them as "buddhas".

How much use would empowerments from such a person be? Wouldn't it be cause for rebirth in the lower realms for both teacher and student?

If the teacher in question understands the material, has done necessary retreats, and has permission to teach, then there is no problem.

Uh huh but ya know the upgrade from 60 watts to 80 watts alone can sometimes be daunting to some... And sometimes it's hard to tell if there's any remarkable diff between one with a master and one who doesn't especially when there's a blackout...

Great comments dharmagoat and plwk! Unfortunately most of us lack the resources to do serious retreat to get the kindling burning.

Sherlock wrote:Can a non-awakened teacher, nevertheless with good intentions and an understanding of the teachings, still give teachings which will benefit the students?

Sure, but such a person should be honest with themselves and their students and even if they give empowerments, should never insist, encourage, or even subtly imply that their students should regard them as "buddhas".

Yes, I've witnessed this several times:

'If you regard me as a Buddha you will receive the blessing of a Buddha, if you regard me as an ordinary being you will only receive the blessings of an ordinary being'. ...

This was said by Padmasambhava and Norbu Rinpoche mentions it often, it's an important practice. So you guys should be careful in what you say...

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

Pero wrote:This was said by Padmasambhava and Norbu Rinpoche mentions it often, it's an important practice. So you guys should be careful in what you say...

The onus is on the teacher's side to be honest. Conceptually deciding that Dipshit Rinpoche and Geshe Unctuous is a Buddha when all his actions indicate the contrary is just plain stupid and deluded. When Dipshit Rinpoche and Geshe Unctuous encourage their students into such beliefs, it just creates cults.

Pero wrote:This was said by Padmasambhava and Norbu Rinpoche mentions it often, it's an important practice. So you guys should be careful in what you say...

The onus is on the teacher's side to be honest. Conceptually deciding that Dipshit Rinpoche and Geshe Unctuous is a Buddha when all his actions indicate the contrary is just plain stupid and deluded.

Malcolm, this is cynicism run amok. I would agree with you if all ones actions indicate the contrary or even only 20% of a teacher's actions indicate the contrary or the teacher engaged in deeply negative behavior. But I have to say that my teachers' actions do indeed indicate that they can be viewed at least for purposes of upaya as acting like Buddha's, even the teachers who flat out say that they aren't realized. I'm really not sure where all these teachers with overwhelming negative qualities are supposed to be. We only see a few of them playing out.

However Jamgon Kongtrul addressed exactly this issue in Ethics and said that nowadays it is difficult to find a teacher with all the positive qualities so one should choose the best teacher one can find.

It is not merely viewing the teacher as a Buddha that is important. Ethics and positive action from our side is critical.

Kirt

Last edited by kirtu on Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gregkavarnos wrote:In Greece we say that in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king.

Our world is drowning in blood created by minds of hatred, anger, intense indulgence in desire, selfishness, and a lack of compassion for other beings. We can uproot the poisons in our minds and then hopefully have a small effect on others. While we can see the emptiness of the poisons and their objects, we have to embrace renunciation, an oft beheld dirty word amongst westerners.

You are correct that in dzogchen we do not have to embrace renunciation and in fact as a conceptualization it will get in the way of realization but consider the actual lives of people drowning in the poisons. If they were able to see the arisal of lust or anger as the adornment of wisdom and really rest in that then there would be no problem. But most people can't do that. They get carried away at some point. So for them dzogchen on the cushion and dzogchen view as much as possible but they will need some renunciation as a safety net. Otherwise some people are on a highwire and will endure some painful encounters with the ground.

Also I didn't notice that the Institutional Buddhism thread was in the Dzogchen forum. The real focus of renunciation is for the gradual and transformational paths (so at least including Mahayoga) in order to keep people safe.

Kirt

Last edited by kirtu on Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You are correct that in dzogchen we do not have to embrace renunciation and in fact as a conceptualization it will get in the way of realization but consider the actual lives of people drowning in the poisons. If they were able to see the arisal of lust or anger as the adornment of wisdom and really rest in that then there would be no problem. But most people can't do that. They get carried away at some point. So for them dzogchen on the cushion and dzogchen view as much as possible but they will need some renunciation as a safety net. Otherwise some people are on a highwire and will endure some painful encounters with the ground.

Kirt

people need to understand their own condition, but they do not need canned religion.