Monday, August 10, 2009

When the ^*%$ hits the fan

I have known for a long time that there would be a time when my wife would find out about the non-religious part of my life. As one who hates confrontation, I had always hoped that that time would be far off and that I would be able to control it under my own terms. Well, that didn't happen.

One week ago, I was in the middle of a project at a client's house when my wife sent me an SMS wanting to know when I would be home and that she would like to get a babysitter so we could go out. I asked where and she said it didn't matter, we just NEEDED to talk. I asked what was wrong and she told me that we would discuss this only in person. The rest of that work day was filled with all sorts of crazy thoughts of what it could be . . . from news of sick relatives to ones that may have passed away. From something wrong with our house or the lease to her being pregnant (not something either of us want now). In the words of Geirge Costanza "Nobody NEEDS to talk", so I knew this was something serious.

In the back of my mind, I thought it was possible that she knew I was OTD, but I just didn't think that was it. Heck, only one of my close friends knows the full extent of my irreligiosity, so it is not like it is out there for her to find out from the grapevine. I knew she hadn't found the blog, because she is not one to just read it and not say anything.

So I get home from work and we get in the car to go. I ask her where and she says to just drive to a parking lot or something in another part of the city so we can talk. When we stopped, she asked me if there was anything I was hiding from her. This cat & mouse game went on for a while (i think it was about an hour). I think I was still afraid to say anything and was just hoping that she really didn't know. At one point I said something about the blog which she said she knew nothing about [As a side note, initially I was wishing i kept that quiet, but as the night went on and in the week since, I am happy i let her read the blog].

After 4.5 hours of talking, yelling, arguing, crying, debating etc. I feel like it all came down to one central issue: While she is not happy that I am not religious, she is much more upset about the fact that I kept it all from her. She said by leading this double life, I showed that I did not trust in the strength of our marriage (which is great) to get us through this, nor did I trust in her to be understanding. I always felt that I was protecting her & the family by not letting this out. While that is true to some extent, I now realize more than ever that I was protecting myself from having to deal with this properly and just fooled myself into thinking that I could keep everything hidden until the "perfect" time arose to bring it up.

So where do we go from here? If we remain together, I will have to continue with many OJ formalities & actions for the sake of the family. My wife has said she doesn't want me to leave, but she also doesn't want me to resent this lifetyle and then decide in 10 years that it sucks and leave her as a single mother in her 40's. I kept thinking back to something that we always end up saying when we have had some financial difficulties; While money problems are tough, at least we have each other, our beautiful kids, supportive family and our health is good so we can get through this. So to here; While parts of OJ may drive me nuts, my life is good and these annoyances are a small price to pay for all the goodness I have in life.

All in all, this week has been a true mixed bag of emotions. At one point, in our initial conversation, I thought it was all over. Coming that close to the brink made me realize even more how much I want to be with my wife & kids. I know that it will be tough for my wife to be completely trusting of me going forward, but I truly feel that this is going to work in the end.

I understand the anger at you keeping this from her...in my marriage I probably would be more angry about my husband lying to me then pretty much anything he could lie to me about (maybe not if he murdered/sexually abused someone, but just about anything else, and I would still want to know about it). glad to hear she is open to working things out.

also this: "If we remain together, I will have to continue with many OJ formalities & actions for the sake of the family"

why is that a given? are you not part of the family? The way I see it, 50% of the adults in your immediate family are OTD, so why is it assumed that you must keep up this charade? Which things get done for your sake? Why of the two adults is she the one who fully dictate how you will act in the future and how your kids will be raised? I don't mean this in a "you should resent your wife" way, but in more of a "partnership being a negotiation" way, and that both parties should be happy with the outcome. If you are going to have be 'in the closet' for the rest of your life pretty much, are you going to be happy or, as she said, are you going to leave her in 10 years because you resent it? Will you you end up resenting her more now that she knows about you but still wants you to keep up this charade?

Don't answer this now, but it's something to think about and discuss with your wife. I second the marriage counseling idea. I also think one week of her knowing you are OTD is way too short to have finalized these future plans, although i know it probably reduces both of your anxiety to have agreed on some sort of plan already. (although for all your agreements you can't predict the future anyway)

just an example of an alternative possibility: my father in law is an atheist and my mother in law is pretty religious catholic. My father in law goes to church with her every week and he will attend church functions with her as her date, but he doesn't receive communion (you have to be catholic to receive communion). They celebrate holidays like easter and christmas, but my husband and his sister have always known that their dad was an atheist married to a catholic person, and they never thought it was weird or anything as far as I can tell. Both their kids were raised catholic and were sent to catholic school for high school. Their kids have about a 50% religiousity rate: my husband is obviously an atheist, but his sister is pretty religious.

anyways, just throwing some of my thoughts out there. I wish you and your wife the best of luck and clear heads in this difficult time.

Jacob Stein, alias JP is just a stupid man who pretends to be a Jew, ignore him. Converts like him should have their conversion invalidated because they don't actually keep the Torah, as evidenced by his blog and comments. If HIS wife only knew of his online activities, she would probably throw him out...Jacob, do you shpich over Talmud pages talking about prostitutes?

Anyway... I know lots and lots of "mixed" couples and they manage just fine, and so will you.

JP- Would you know of any good ways to stop my addictions? I tried religion but then I realized that it caused me the same psychological damage as the cocaine and prostitution. At least I am addicted to something that gives me pleasure.

AE - you brought as an example a functioning Christian "mixed" relationship that works, but you have to admit that a such a family that is "stuck" in the frum world is in trouble.

It is virtually impossible to find a way to make it work, unless one decides to move to a different community, and even then its a little tricky (the frum world is a small world).

I was thinking that if the family makes aliya, it could tackle some of these issues. The OTD partner could easily live his lifestyle b'farhesya and the community members they left behind will think so highly of this family that they moved to Israel!

I don't know how she found out. While I am curious, I don't really care all that much.

AE, it is true that I make up 50% of the adults in the household and should be part of the decision process. However, we have been married for over 10 years and the OJ lifestyle is what we came into the marriage expecting. It is also how we have been raising our children. So to flip everything around now would be unfair. While we have not spoken about it yet, I imagine there will be a time when the kids are older that I would explain everything to them.

AE/BHB - regarding my actions, while OJ is certainly more cumbersome than than Christianity, it is not that hard to do a few basic things so people assume you are OJ. It is particularly easy here in Israel regarding kosher food.

All in all, I think the main thing is about mutual respect. What sets me apart from many former-OJ people is that I am not at all bitter about my OJ experience. It just simply is not for me, I have no interest in it, and, of course, I think some of the beliefs are a crock. So I can easy alter my lifestyle so that it doesn't offend my wife who is religious. e.g. i wouldn't bring non-kosher into the home, i wouldn't sit and watch TV if people are around on shabbat.

Sometimes I have to admit that I am somewhat envious of those truly faithful (my former self included) who have a simple clear belief in god and halachah and feel that they are fulfilling a mission. It generated happiness, energy, good family life and selflessness.

Having meaning in life is apparently important for us human beings, and religion is not the only thing that can do that. So if you are "not interested" in OJ I think you will be helped by finding something else meaningful that your are interested in.

JP - I don't think there is any sane and thinking person that has been swayed by your posts. After reading through my blog and the comments, my wife has also come to the conclusion that you're an idiot.

face it, you think you are the savior of orthodoxy, but everyone just thinks you're a jackass and you have zero chance of bringing any of us skeptics/atheists/non-religious back into the fold.

The wicked one, what does he say? "What is this service to you?!" He says `to you,' but not to him! By thus excluding himself from the community he has denied that which is fundamental. You, therefore, blunt his teeth and say to him: "It is because of this that the L-rd did for me when I left Egypt"; `for me' - but not for him! If he had been there, he would not have been redeemed!"

I am so glad that your wife has found out about your double life and had the courage to let you know she knew. Yes, you will have to build up her trust in you again and that may mean having to put up with her not entirely trusting you right away.

You will not be the first "mixed marriage" I have known. Most people seem to work this out. I think you do think that there are things that you like about OJ so I don't think that doing things like making kiddish on Friday night will be so difficult.

I have close friends where the wife went OTD. The husband eventually followed. Ironicaly she is headed back on the derech. So at one point they were both observant, then she was OTD and then they were both OTD and they may end up with her being observant and him being OTD (by the way he has started to learn again.)

These friends have weathered all this change of status in their marriage because they are a couple who are well suited for each other on many levels and most importantly they love each other. You have no idea where either of you will be in 5 years. This is the kind of problem that can be worked out.

I don't know where to start: should I feel sorry for you about what happened or should I congratulate you? Obviously, this once had to come out: I believe you can't fool everyone all of the time. My guess is that it was a shock at first, but then a relief. And certainly a good learning experience.

I can only commend your wife on how she dealt with the situation. And I am so jealous of the obvious love between the two of you, which makes me believe that you two will overcome this obstacle eventially.

I did tell my wife about my doubts in Judaism and she knows I don't put on tefillin anymore, e.g. But she doesn't know the extent. Being open, at least partially, the surprise will be smaller in the end.

And now as for JP: talking about distrusting your family. What idiot would spy on his / her partner behind her back? and what sick mind must you have if you go ahead and test your daughter's underwear for semen?!?

I wish you would have answered my question, but regardless of that fact....I posted this somewhere else too....

I would encourage you to read a fantastic article in the Spring 09 Tradition titled "Idolatry: A Prohibition for Our Time" by: Herzl Hefter.

Hefter's conclusion is quite dramatic, and many on this blog may find fascinating.

In a nutshell, he suggests that extreme, non-bending, fundametalist adherance to the letter-of-the-law in the tanach is the avodah zara that is referenced in the chumash. The literal understanding of the stories and other things in the bible is true avodah zara, not bowing down to idols!

Who woulda thought that JP, chasidim, and every yeshiva in the world are practicing avodah zara mi'deoiraisa!! JP, what's the punishment for avodah zara? (haha)

" the OJ lifestyle is what we came into the marriage expecting......to flip everything around now would be unfair..."

Rich, kudos to you for having the smarts and integrity to give that aspect of the matter its due; it's no small thing (& to your wife for keeping a relatively cool head, tho as others have said, you guys ain't out of the woods yet). Too many among us seem to slide into a defiant/defensive stance, wherein the 'personal fulfillment' that has been deferred all this time when one was frum [---albeit unknowingly, sort of like time served] becomes the only thing that really matters; the heck with committment, marriage, parenting, love. That's one of the aspects of the frum lifestyle that I believe still comes off quite well in comparisons: not making individualism the highest ---or only---true virtue. Whatever the stats about social problems in our communitites, there are still far more solid, lasting marriages among us, than secular society at large. Only an ideologue would actually deny that.

As you say, you value your wife and your kids---there's no replacing that. A lucky few can redo it, get lucky a second time---but that doesn't just fill the hole left by discarding what you once had.

"the main thing is about mutual respect. What sets me apart from many former-OJ people is that I am not at all bitter about my OJ experience..."

Clearly. Good for you. It seems to me, the folks who've liberated their minds and/or themselves from their frum lives, but whose views are now colored with resentment and scorn have traded one set of hang-ups & biases for another. It's one thing to be annoyed at the inherent silliness in so much of what passes for religion (any religion), all in the name of objectivity, of course. But the gratuitous sniping, and the implicit assertion that frum life bears no social benefits whatsoever for its adherents---that's not objectivity at work.

"..I imagine there will be a time when the kids are older that I would explain everything to them.....It just simply is not for me, I have no interest in it, and, of course, I think some of the beliefs are a crock..."

I can relate to so much of what you've said, but I wonder about this: once you acknowledge to yourself that you simply find certain things flat-out lacking credibility, some things are superstitious nonsense, some maybe even harmful thinking, doesn't it really disturb you for your kids to be indoctrinated in those very thoughts, especially if they're just starting out? I'm grappling w/this issue. I don't get the people who seem to have tossed it all aside, but are not bothered by their kids going down the same road they've rejected. It seems a kind of uncaring fatalism. It's not as if I, as a parent, can say, "Hey, whatever works for them (the kids)"--this isn't liberalism vs conservativism where, whatever one's own strong feelings, it behooves any intelligent person to remember that a person can be one or the other and STILL be a good, successful, sincere, humane, happy individual.---But this is about believing in things that the parent knows are pure bunk, in some cases outdated bigotry--who'd want all that for their kid?

I would even recommend moderating comments, so JP's bullshit never sees the light of day. As I've said before, you can't expect the frum blogosphere top police themselves, so we're stuck doing the dirty work.

"I would even recommend moderating comments, so JP's bullshit never sees the light of day."

I would even recommend that all Jewish skeptic bloggers stop blogging and prepare for the Day of Judgement and Day of Atonement with fasting, prayer and repentance. Next week is Rosh Chodesh Elul. Get to work!

"It's been two years for the Baal Habuste now, and we're still going strong."

Not comparable. Unfortunately, because of her age, your wife probably has little choice plus there are no little kids around for you to ruin. Not so Rich.

<<< I would agree with JRS in that there is something worthwhile about the OJ world worth hanging on to, but I disagree with his pooh-poohing of OTDers for their "sniping." >>>

Strange. Open questioning, argument and debate about virtually anything (that's what so much of the blogosphere is about) can be healthy, constructive, therapeutic, maybe even change a bit of the world for the better. OTOH, being "for" gratuitous sniping is sort of like being pro-litter or pro-noise. Is there actually anything constructive about negative, disparaging remarks that are unwarranted, without sufficient reason or justification---i.e. gratuitous?

Gratuitous sniping is more than just offensive, it's counterproductive. Remarks that are simply cheap shots, that willfully generalize, misrepresent or refuse to take into account context & other factors unfairly influence others and they reinforce the negative views of the one making them,---without actually engaging the issues.

In other words, you can have an open argument /discussion about the pros & cons of, say, the frum lifestyle, referring to issues of hypocrisy, bigotry, dishonesty, snobbery, whatever---or, on the other hand, benefits such as wholesome values, community, extensive chesed infrastructure, respect for social mores, honesty, etc. Not all people, but some really do want to hear other perspectives, even if only to debate them....

-----OR, you can say things like, "Frummies are a bunch of hypocrites, my cousin went to talk to her rabbi and he tried to hit on her. And I hated yeshiva when I was a kid."Well, THAT's certainly a comprehensive scientific survey of a given lifestyle---not like all the silly, unscientific stuff they force-feed you in yeshiva!

Not constructive or mature--in any way. And what's worse, those who indulge often know better, they know perfectly well that these "arguments" don't constitute proof or real evidence of anything---that's why it's utterly gratuitous, a product of resentment or rage. And no more objective than the stuff your third-grade rebbe taught you that you no longer believe.

>Not comparable. Unfortunately, because of her age, your wife probably has little choice plus there are no little kids around for you to ruin. Not so Rich.

You had predicted a bad future for me just as you now predict for Rich. Had it been the other way around you (Rich, first) would have said, "Rich's wife has little choice because she is saddled with yound kids and doesn't want to rock the boat. Not so BHB's wife."

So this difference between Rich and me is just a desperate ad-hoc explanation. Typical fundie approach.

Rich appears to be missing from the blogosphere for more than 48 hours. I am afraid his wife smacked him with the frying pan after she realized why she's been getting these strange rashes and infections.

Rich, if you're still alive, remember: Next week is ELUL! Even you can REPENT AND BE SAVED!!

None that go unto her return, neither do they attain unto the paths of life. Proverbs 2:19.

According to Abodah Zarah 17a, this means if they do turn away from heresy they will not attain the paths of life - rather the pain of remorse will cause the penitent's death.

However, in God's infinite mercy, repentance is still effective, as we see regarding Eleazar b. Dordia. Having placed his head between his knees, he wept aloud until his soul departed. Then a bath-kol was heard proclaiming: 'Rabbi Eleazar b. Dordai is destined for the life of the world to come!'

http://www.come-and-hear.com/zarah/zarah_17.html#17a_22

Get busy Bos and others! Let's do it before Yom Kippur!!

If I don't hear from you, I will know you have probably taken my advice and have died from remorse! Since you are still alive, I know you are still sinners!

>Scripture says, None that go unto her return neither do they attain the paths of life.21 But if they do not return, how can they attain [the paths of life]? — What it means is that even if they do turn away from it they will not attain the paths of life

יט כָּל-בָּאֶיהָ, לֹא יְשׁוּבוּן; וְלֹא-יַשִּׂיגוּ, אָרְחוֹת חַיִּים.

None that go unto her return, neither do they attain unto the paths of life;

I love how the Gemara just ignores the word "Vlo" ("Neither") and makes us something out of the blue.

>Let's do it before Yom Kippur!!

I hold a different sheeta now.

"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints" - Billy Joel in 'Only the Good die Young'.

> I think the point is obvious - if your child expresses even a slight doubt, just throw the bum out and continue your Seder.

JP, have you ever been to see a therapist? I think it would be in your best interest to speak with someone. I don't mean this as an insult. The zealotry you display is not accounted for by societal norms, and your lack of empathy has some disturbing implications.

I think the hardest part of a “mixed” couple is how to raise the kids. If it was just the couple, each one could pretty much do their own thing. But when the kids see conflicting lifestyles its confusing. The worst part for me is that I’m going to be paying a fortune to indoctrinate my kids into a religion that I think is mostly nonsense. But as Rich said, the implicit agreement at marriage was that the kids would be raised OJ.

although its quite obvious that Jewish Philosopher is a troll (a fairly funny one occasionally - "everyone who came to my site left EXTREMELY enlightened") but it saddens me that skeptics occasionally respond to him as if he was an actual person.

It’s just fascinating how the Internet works. Someone quotes the Haggadah, a book every Jew reads to his children on Passover, and a half dozen so called pseudo-Jewish hypocrite secret atheists hiding behind anonymous Internet connections pop up screaming “Hater! Troll! Lunatic! Ban him!”

Been through this discussion with my wife. I was miserable on Shabbos and wanted to go out and do things errands, catch a baseball game. She was cool with it seeing how miserable that I was. We belong to a small orthodox shul so no-one is watching over your shoulder so it is possible to live the compromise that we do. You can't do this in Brooklyn/Monsey so why not move out of town or to a small shul.

It's cute that you think during a particular month in the year, you should behave differently than you would otherwise....so that presumably you will win some brownie points that will help you after you die.

Atheism's basic attraction: To be able to do anything, particularly to be sexually promiscuous, without guilt. Atheists are emotionally immature. They are like children who want to rebel against authority. They lack self discipline. They imagine that their irresponsible and destructive behavior will have no consequences.

You are a classic case of an individual who doth protest way too much. I suspect that you internally struggle with doubts about your decision and therefore the cognitive dissonance which someone in your position must experience (so much invested in this lifestyle already) forces you to go out and try and ram your perverted view of Orthodox Judaism down everyone else s throat. After all, someone who is so evangelical about their life choices must not be regretting them, right? Well, I see through you Mr. Stein and a truly empathize with you and the daily suffering that you must go through. I imagine that you believe that God will reward you in the next world for suffering as much as you do, and I hope that brings you some measure of comfort.

Also, not everyone in this world is motivated primarily by drugs and sex. It is apparent from your comments that you are. Yes, many biblical figures had relationships with prostitutes, and King David even killed a man to be able to screw the wife after watching her bath nude on her roof. But many other biblical figures made decisions motivated primarily by organs other than their penis. Maybe you should spend some time studying those other human motivators. To be honest, after seeing your pictures on the blog you have, and the pictures of your wife, I can understand why going to a prostitute would be so high on your list of "things to do when I leave religious observance". I know many non-jews, irreligious jews, people who left the fold, etc. and the vast overwhelming majority of them never used cocaine or prostitutes. However, this little article and accompanying picture may enlighten you as to the practices of your fellow Orthodox Jews http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4488623&page=1.

I hope you do a little soul searching this new year season and come to terms with the despicable human being that you have become. If I had to deal with people like you I would leave Orthodox Judaism instantly. I hope for your sake that this behavior can be attributable to a genuine mental illness and that you get proper help.

I've seen that news story. Thanks for posting it. Those guys are the Jewish skeptics and that confirms my view.

Let me make a practical suggestion: Delete the phone numbers of your pimp and your dealer from your cell phone speed dial. If they are the same person, then it's even easier. Put it away in a drawer if you must, but at least for Elul take it off speed dial.

Rosh Chodesh is here so this is it! One month: no hos and no blow! You can do it men! Tell your dealer and/or pimp your rabbi has declared a season of penance. If he has any further questions, he can call me.

I find it extremely validating that you still have not responded to the substance of my post. I know it must be hard for you respond to substance, given that my comments struck deep to the core of your unstable existence (and you clearly possess, at most, de minimus mental ability).

While looking at the content that you have put on the internet, I came across a letter that you sent a while back to your adopted parents - remember them? They are the ones who sacrificed for you. They adopted you when you had no where else to turn and selflessly raised you for so many years. You should be worshiping the ground that they walk on, because no one in this world has done for you as much as they have. Without them you would not be here today. But, consistent with your general confusion regarding the tenets of Judaism and your utter lack of normal human emotions such as empathy, you defecate on them by writing the most hurtful, obnoxious and philosophically (from a Jewish standpoint) inappropriate email that I have ever seen. I hope some day your children have the wisdom to distance themselves from you so that they have a slight chance at living a decent life.

I hope, for your sake, that God has mercy on your soul in this time of teshuvah and forgiveness and finds it in him to let you live another hate and sin filled year. I would imagine that many people will point to your continued existence as proof that there is no God, or at least not a just one. You are a walking chillul hashem, and I pray that your evident mental illness mitigates your punishment in the next world.

I just wish some skeptics would put some verifiable information about themselves out in public. I wonder why they don't? Probably they are afraid I will be jealous of their greatness and therefore don't want to cause me that suffering.

Rich, I pray that everything works out. I am Sephardic, and my Mom's parents (zt'l) were a "mixed" couple. They were still happy in a traditional way (think of the song "Do you love me?" from Fidler on the Roof) Sadly Judaism in the western world picked up this all or nothing approach from Christians who became very sectarian and sect-conscious from the 16th century c.e. onwards. All-or-nothing-ism is not a Jewish value. May I add that you are a very lucky man, you are in a marriage to a wife who loves you, and you have children. Please appreciate what you do have. I am 50 years old, divorced, no kids and no prospect of having any- which is the saddest thing to me. I was too choosy, and at 45 I finally married a beautiful woman who turned out to be a paranoid schizophrenic- her family admitted it after the fact. My divorce came through within a year. So, all I can say is-remeber in the end, it's just you and your wife, and you and Hashem. That's all that really matters.

Just, as a side note. I saw all this heated debate here, and cannot stop wondering.

The scariest part of being married is that you have to share 95% of you with someone else, and 5% is for privacy (including being alone in the bathroom, doing nails (for ladies), digging inside your nose or other places). When a spouse starts to live double life expanding the 5% into 50% or more - it is a sign for something broken in the system.

Protecting the family is a good excuse but not good enough for the magnitude of a damage in trust that the hiding causes. Being caught on hiding things myself, I will tell you right now, forget the counseling.

Before spending money on shrinks, spend some time with yourself to answer this big question - what was the real reason for hiding. Once you know the answer, then you will know if the marriage is salvageable or not.

Hope it helped. And good luck, I really hope you guys will be able to work it out. I hate when good people get separated.

I am not very familiar with your blog but I have read your recent posts and understand that you have some problems with Orthodox Judaism, belief in G-d, etc. I myself am experiencing similar thoughts, although I was not born frum. Rather, I am in the process of becoming more religious but i have many doubts (as well as things I love about OJ, or else I wouldn't be making teshuvah). Anyway, I have been reading stuff on Chabad.org about theology, and I came across some stuff the Lubavitcher rebbe wrote about faith science & torah, etc. It's really interesting. By the way, I am in no way affiliated with Chabad, nor do I attend their events or anything, so I'm not trying to convert you or anything. I just thought this stuff was really interesting and you might be interested in it.http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/111581/jewish/Mind-Over-Matter.htm

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