And no I absolutely wouldn't try to say this like that to anyone who was in the military. That's unfair to think that you'd have to.

So you are willing to call them lazy and/or stupid for being wounded in combat, but you aren't capable of saying that to any of their faces?

Yeah, what good would it do? It likely wouldn't change their mind about anything. It's unfair to think that it should.
That's not how you treat people. That's not how you communicate anything.

And yes I'm willing to think they're often ignorant, misled, or just plain lazy for joining the military. But I understand that's how chips fall and I could have easily been in their shoes given the right (or wrong) environment.
Putting their significant courage and capacities into a dumb, destructive (to both self and others) thing that they happen to be dealing with as best they can, is another point entirely.

Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:10 pm

IAmNiki

Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 1605
Location: North Smithfield, RI

Raoul DeGroot wrote:

IAmNiki wrote:

Raoul DeGroot wrote:

And no I absolutely wouldn't try to say this like that to anyone who was in the military. That's unfair to think that you'd have to.

So you are willing to call them lazy and/or stupid for being wounded in combat, but you aren't capable of saying that to any of their faces?

Yeah, what good would it do? It likely wouldn't change their mind about anything. It's unfair to think that it should.
That's not how you treat people. That's not how you communicate anything.

And yes I'm willing to think they're often ignorant, misled, or just plain lazy for joining the military. But I understand that's how chips fall and I could have easily been in their shoes given the right (or wrong) environment.
Putting their significant courage and capacities into a dumb, destructive (to both self and others) thing that they happen to be dealing with as best they can, is another point entirely.

I'm certainly not under the impression that saying that to their faces would change anything. I simply find it a point of interest when people claim something about a group of people, and then back out when the opportunity arises for them to share these feelings with the very people they are talking about.

Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:20 pm

Sage FrancisSelf Fighteous

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21654

Well, not everyone feels like getting in a fight.

Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:22 pm

Raoul DeGroot

Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 2437
Location: Son Quest

Niki, are you old enough to have realized how long it takes and how hard it is to change the way you feel about things?
There's maybe a handful of times in your life that you'll be able to change your mind on a dime due to new information. The rest of that shit is real dicey and is rarely clear enough to provide someone a simple formula for. It is painful to change. A sore and difficult thing. And the temptation to revert back to what you wanted to think in the first place, is strong.

There's like 10% logic and the rest is just rubbing off on people and subtle peer pressure. And it's not because people are too dumb to see the light. -It's that personal histories and life in general are COMPLICATED.

So chill out youngling, listen to your cherished elder. I have the TRUTH on my side.

Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:35 pm

Z-0

Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 700
Location: Sydney

to add my thoroughly unintelligent mind to this thread, i'm reminded of a line from a tacky movie - "If I asked you about war, you’d probably throw Shakespeare at me, right? “Once more into the breach, dear friends.” But you’ve never been near one."

Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:40 pm

IAmNiki

Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 1605
Location: North Smithfield, RI

Raoul DeGroot wrote: Niki, are you old enough to have realized how long it takes and how hard it is to change the way you feel about things?

Yes.

But since that post made me chuckle, I digress.

I'm not super committed to this topic. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, and see how deep your opinion goes.

Please handle the TRUTH responsibly while/if you have it.

I'm not really sure what you are talking about when it comes to changing ideas and how you feel about things, but I was simply pointing out that you are making a huge generalization about a group of people. That's all.

Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:55 pm

Sage FrancisSelf Fighteous

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21654

Z-0 wrote: to add my thoroughly unintelligent mind to this thread, i'm reminded of a line from a tacky movie - "If I asked you about war, you’d probably throw Shakespeare at me, right? “Once more into the breach, dear friends.” But you’ve never been near one."

after dating and living with a iraq combat veteran from the usmc i must now say my take on it is that it is so complex.

yes, i was the dick living with the marine that was tacky enough to tell him war was a racket and that i felt for him being a victim of the military industrial complex.

man i was that idiot. i never made such a hard choice as that or saw such hard things as that or lived though a choice like that and then had to come home and be judged for my choice, wether it was a mistake or not.

some kind of idiot i am.

the after effects and emotions involved in choices like that seem really complex now that i lived with a veteran of a modern war.

it's hard to love someone and also sometimes have a different view then they went in with and not be able to share the view they came out with because i didnt go , because thats not something i would do.

i really loved my marine. in the end he seemed to have some understanding/self awareness about where he went and what it all meant in the bigger picture.

and after loving a marine, i must say i can never again be that idiot who says that shit to a vet already they usually already know what they know and i dont know what they know i just have my opinions.

in total i lived with and loved a good man who thought he was signing up to do something for his country, but he ended up opening iraq immediatly and what he became was someone with difficulties and troubles and memories and responses and what i am now is a person with compassion.

a perfectly good man went off to war and came back a perfectly good man who was a wreck. i thought i had my ideas and opinions settled but loving someone who hadnt done what i would have done and living with who they became because of it made me have more compassion for the modern soldier regardless of wether a war is just or a racket or both.

and i still love that man. if i was the prayin type id pray for him. but im not so ill just think positive thoughts in his direction.

people arent perfect i try to remember when they meant well.

** fuck i just read what i wrote above. im such an idiot. my posts are retarded.

Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:06 pm

Raoul DeGroot

Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 2437
Location: Son Quest

I get verklempt everytime I watch that movie.
For it, I can never haterate on Ben Affleck. Despite the affleckness he has brought to the screen since.

Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:09 pm

Raoul DeGroot

Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 2437
Location: Son Quest

IAmNiki wrote:

Raoul DeGroot wrote: Niki, are you old enough to have realized how long it takes and how hard it is to change the way you feel about things?

Yes.

But since that post made me chuckle, I digress.

I'm not super committed to this topic. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, and see how deep your opinion goes.

Please handle the TRUTH responsibly while/if you have it.

I'm not really sure what you are talking about when it comes to changing ideas and how you feel about things, but I was simply pointing out that you are making a huge generalization about a group of people. That's all.

Thanks for recognizing my impeccable truthyness.

I don't think I'm making such a huge generalization. It's a generalization sure, but what's so huge about it? Set me straight. I am like the one person in the world who can change on a dime. I promise.

Last edited by Raoul DeGroot on Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:15 pm

IAmNiki

Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 1605
Location: North Smithfield, RI

Raoul DeGroot wrote:

IAmNiki wrote:

Raoul DeGroot wrote: Niki, are you old enough to have realized how long it takes and how hard it is to change the way you feel about things?

Yes.

But since that post made me chuckle, I digress.

I'm not super committed to this topic. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, and see how deep your opinion goes.

Please handle the TRUTH responsibly while/if you have it.

I'm not really sure what you are talking about when it comes to changing ideas and how you feel about things, but I was simply pointing out that you are making a huge generalization about a group of people. That's all.

Thanks for recognizing my impeccable truthyness.

I don't think I'm making such a huge generalization. It's a generalization sure, but what's so huge about it? Set me straight.

40,000 recently wounded in combat, with 300,000 (in 2007, it's what came up from a quick search) fighting PTSD. Not to mention it's not just a day for soldiers in modern war. It's supposed to honor ALL veterans that have fought in ALL American wars.

For the most part, I agree with you. I think a lot of people are tricked, bribed, or misled into the military, but I'm not willing to assume that it's most of them, or even the majority of them. It's a big assumption to make, especially when you go around calling them ignorant or dumb. What about all of the vets from Vietnam that were drafted? Are they dumb for getting killed/hurt for bullshit reasons?

Your post was just something that jumped out at me, and I felt I needed to respond to it. I definitely don't want to set you straight. I like you being a little crooked and wiggly. Like elbow macaroni.

Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:33 pm

MCGF

Joined: 22 Feb 2010
Posts: 367

this whole forum is elbow macaroni...

Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:37 pm

See Arrrgh

Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 251
Location: New England

MCGF wrote: this whole forum is elbow macaroni...

My other penis is elbow macaroni.

Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:40 pm

See Arrrgh

Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 251
Location: New England

Sage Francis wrote: Well, not everyone feels like getting in a fight.

Having convictions, seemingly made on generalizations, and not having the fortitude to face the people you've generalized seems very, very cheap to me.

And I think that's what she (IAmNiki) was getting at. I could be wrong though.