Prophecy: Well, two questions.Firstly, you are talking about sufi origins + your school seems to go for hermetic looks. In my country, if you want to found or re-found hermetic order/school/whatever, you need an approval from authority of the order, eg in case of martinist order you need an approval from grandmaster. So, the first question is, does your school have this kind of approval and can it be publicly accessible as it is usually required by hermetic orders?

Secondly: Why is help/aid requested by people accepted/rejected based on the membership in the school and why people that previously requested help that was rejected and then tried to enter your school, were rejected from the school, as well?

Prophecy, thank you kindly for your explanations about your connections with the lineages. While I understand that you think it may not be important for you to explain this in detail, because the results of your teachings speak for themselves, others who are not a part of your school really have no way of knowing the results of your teachings other than the few posts here by some of your students. I appreciate you going into detail about this and it has helped me with my decision. I am not sure how the long-distance training will work but I would like to give it a chance, so I will be applying for your school as soon as applications are accepted again. I highly respect all that you have accomplished through the years and I look forward to your teachings.

Koujiryuu, my apologies for the confusion. I actually did not lump you in with TDS though the wording may have been confusing as I was writing a lot and may not have been very clear on that point. I meant that the posts here on Veritas are the real deal, and that I've seen no elitism here on Veritas from the teachers of TDS. I am having a difficult time understanding why you are against tradition ("dressing up"), based on my own experiences, but I respect that you are doing things your own way. All of the masters that I have crossed paths with in this life have stuck strongly with the traditions of their lineages and I have seen and experienced the importance and power behind this tradition. If they have a specific robe or a bell on their hat, it's for a reason. Additionally, it is considered offensive to my shifu if I do not wear my robe while practicing his teachings. Trusting your teacher(s) is trusting their tradition. It is for these reasons that I will follow their traditions.

Koujiryuu, my apologies for the confusion. I actually did not lump you in with TDS though the wording may have been confusing as I was writing a lot and may not have been very clear on that point. I meant that the posts here on Veritas are the real deal, and that I've seen no elitism here on Veritas from the teachers of TDS.

I think it was just the wording, yeah. It is true that I strive not to be elitist or separate myself from my students by my attitude. I try my hardest to see everyone else as my equal, or better than me in some way, because I believe it keeps me humble.

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I am having a difficult time understanding why you are against tradition ("dressing up"), based on my own experiences, but I respect that you are doing things your own way. All of the masters that I have crossed paths with in this life have stuck strongly with the traditions of their lineages and I have seen and experienced the importance and power behind this tradition. If they have a specific robe or a bell on their hat, it's for a reason. Additionally, it is considered offensive to my shifu if I do not wear my robe while practicing his teachings. Trusting your teacher(s) is trusting their tradition. It is for these reasons that I will follow their traditions.

When I took martial arts classes when I was younger I had to wear a Gi, and I did it out of respect, but I honestly hated it. It seemed silly to me. It was also impractical and physically restrictive.

I'm a normal guy and if you looked at me that's what you would see. I wear normal clothes around my house and I blend in in society. Even when meditating or doing spiritual work I wear normal clothes.

I personally dislike dressing up per tradition because I feel it alienates you from your students and makes you stand out. It emphasizes authority and makes one self-important. I have heard numerous stories about Daoist masters in the mountains of China, Yogis in the Himalayas, and even renown Japanese swordsmen like Miyamoto Musashi, and in all of them they appeared to be wearing the clothes of a peasant. Dirty and unkempt. Lowly and humble. Even Jesus was said to wear the clothes of a peasant. As long as you are covered it doesn't matter what you're wearing, and when in Rome, do as the Romans do. I see no reason to wear priestly robes.

I am not a ritual mage and I belong to no orders, so wearing these things for the purpose of ritual has no meaning to me, because ritual has no meaning to me.

I understand why they do it but I don't think it's necessary, and again, I think a large part of it is projecting a social image of authority or importance, which I disagree with. True spiritual teaching can take place regardless of the clothes you wear.

I have heard numerous stories about Daoist masters in the mountains of China, Yogis in the Himalayas, and even renown Japanese swordsmen like Miyamoto Musashi, and in all of them they appeared to be wearing the clothes of a peasant. Dirty and unkempt. Lowly and humble. Even Jesus was said to wear the clothes of a peasant.

Have you met any of these stories?

You don't have to dress up if you don't want to, but for those who do want to, why not let them? It is a personal choice, or it is the choice of the master so long as the student wishes to continue learning from that master. As you said, it doesn't matter, so why not dress up in such a simple little thing?

In my vote, I'm all for the lack of clothes entirely if people are willing to accept that. Just as I am for the lack of speech entirely, if people were able to manage that ^_^

~Steve

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Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

I have heard numerous stories about Daoist masters in the mountains of China, Yogis in the Himalayas, and even renown Japanese swordsmen like Miyamoto Musashi, and in all of them they appeared to be wearing the clothes of a peasant. Dirty and unkempt. Lowly and humble. Even Jesus was said to wear the clothes of a peasant.

Have you met any of these stories?

You don't have to dress up if you don't want to, but for those who do want to, why not let them? It is a personal choice, or it is the choice of the master so long as the student wishes to continue learning from that master. As you said, it doesn't matter, so why not dress up in such a simple little thing?

In my vote, I'm all for the lack of clothes entirely if people are willing to accept that. Just as I am for the lack of speech entirely, if people were able to manage that ^_^

~Steve

I may not have met any of those stories, but that's besides the point.

I never said people can't do it. People do it and will continue to. It's not like I'm saying it shouldn't be done, or TDS must stop doing it.

I merely gave my opinion on why I disagree with it and find it weird. It is not something I'm comfortable with, regardless of who is doing it.

I have been a student of Prophecy's (also known as Ramose) for just over four years now. Within 6 months of his tutelage I achieved more than I had with two years of daily practice of IIH. Earlier on Koujiryuu posted about the limitations of energetic transmissions. I was just at a gathering this past weekend with Prophecy, the energies that they gave through the transmissions have helped me with the flow of energy in my body, reducing a tension in my head that i've had for years allowing energy to move properly in my body and thus attain deeper meditation. Effects like this are quite common due to the spiritual work they do on students when they visit. When I asked about my spiritual practices he looked at me and knew how successful I was with performing my exercises. A friend of mine was given specific advice on how she was performing one exercise in a way that could be improved on, while giving her specific advice on how to fix it. While Prophecy and Veos are not all knowing they do have clairvoyance that is used practically to aid their students in perfecting their spiritual practices. It can be confusing to some students who are not used to being around clairvoyants which has lead to some, especially younger students who thing that the Hierophants are nearly omniscient. Though that seems to not be an issue with most of the senior students who know that they have vast knowledge, incredible intuition, and developed astral senses, yet are not all knowing all the same.

The system has developed in a way that a huge percentage of the active students are very driven and motivated to achieve the things they seek. There are no other places I know of in terms of online forums where it is a common thing (or at least not uncommon) to see people practicing 3-4 hours a day and experiencing magical and spiritual phenomenon in their life on such a regular basis. It takes a lot of structure and discipline to create a school so focused on results and not just theory. Without structure it is practically impossible to have such success in so many students, that being said it is still completely up to the student how much they want to practice. I have made many great friends in the school due to the intensity that many of the students pursue Theurgy being a common factor.

The last thing I wanted to discuss is that the practices of the school always blow me away when I learn something new. I have practiced a huge amount of qigong techniques, psionics, IIH, and techniques from numerous other magical systems. Yet the practices I learn from Prophecy build upon each other in ways i've never experienced before and lead to very powerful results.

I have found TDS incredibly helpful to me in seeking God and my study of magic. Without the school I would be nowhere near where I am today, I likely would have seriously hurt myself with the imbalanced practices I was doing before. If there is anyone interested in tds who wants to talk to a student who has been around for a few years you are welcome to message me. I will check in on Veritas a bit more often just in case.

I will give here few experiences while searching for mystery school.It is not my intention to belittle any teachings,schools or individuals,but to present my point of view in regard to Spiritual and /or mystery school.Before that,I joined Qigong class here on Veritas.Kouji is the Teacher with good reputation,and I decided to see what is in the class.In the start,we are all asked multiple questions.I didn't like some questions.It is my belief that teachings like qigong should't start with curiosity about other students,but rather focus on teachings,and let students talk about self when they want to.Then teachings.It was uncomfortably to read lectures,cos they were just quote/paste,grey letters on a grey surface,exactly from last year qigong course.No effort was made to present lectures in a new,fresh way.I didn't continue the course,for the same reason I didn't last year.Same quoted/pasted lectures-gray letters on a grey surface like all quoted posts.Later,I was contacted by kobok about my experiences and satisfaction with qigong course.I didn't respond cos I thought Kouji deserves time to correct mistakes in teaching qigong.How many students complete qigong course,I dont know.before that,last year, I decided to see what is in The Order Of Hollow Ones.Few days after I made consultation with mr.Black, and gave my real data,an very unpleasant spiritual experience occurred.Specifically,an dark entity entered my room with no friendly intentions.Luckily for me,I am no greenhorn in a spiritual warfare..Later Akenu explained to me few details,and I am thankful for that.But still,my doubts remain.Then I made few other attempts to advance spiritually.To make long story short,I was disappointed with all of them.Then I applied to TDS last year.I was accepted,and I feel good to be part of the school.Being inside the school on a daily basis,for more than a year,I can testify that school is real one.We, the students,are not perfect,and we are not pretending to be.Our teachers too.We are taught an noble tradition above all,and to be respectful and be courteous to all.Summa summarum:Bad experiences from many different schools and teachings led me to TDS.It is possible that TDS is not the best school out there.But surely beats all other schools and teachings I encountered!

It's common for teachers, even great teachers, to reuse the same material they've put together before. Did you give any feedback on it last year besides how it looked like to you? It's kind of hard to take your criticism seriously because you put zero effort into Kouji's course.

I did not criticize Kouji's way of teachings,just that it wasn't suitable for me.And read the start of my previous post.Besides that,I am practicing 8 precious exercises for more than 20 years,as part of wu-shu,and Standing on stake,as qigong-so my knowledge in qigong is about average.In my opinion,any teacher who pretend to be a great teacher should never criticize others,but make all efforts to make own teachings close to perfection.As great Teacher once said:"How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."-Holy Bible,Luke,6:42Therefore,Kouji's only mistake was in criticizing TDS,when he should correct own mistakes.Of course,if his qigong course was completed by many students,than I am wrong and I apologize.

Akuigla; I would, for the record and as another student of TDS, like to disagree that there was any problem with Kouji's criticism. Criticism is incredibly valuable if it can be learned from, and TDS must, like every other group with any aim at all, take the opinions of non-members and especially ex-members into account in order to be more accessible to potential students and, much more importantly, reduce the incidence of unnecessary misconceptions as much as possible so that the school is not falsely represented. You yourself have seen the various debates and changes that have taken place within the school over time so I am sure that you can see this for yourself.

On another note, and as a fellow student you should know I intend no disrespect, you have criticized Kouji's class just as Kouji criticized TDS. Everyone's eyes are filled with splinters and planks, as are mine as well. The redeeming element is that most here are aware of their imperfections and are working to correct them.

So, I do not mean to be accusatory, but merely observant. I simply wanted to help keep this discussion constructive. I have little else to add. Be well, everyone.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 03:08:34 PM by Iatros »

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"And in this lies my honour and my reward, - / That whenever I come to the fountain to drink I find the living water itself thirsty; / And it drinks me while I drink it." - Almustafa

I will give here few experiences while searching for mystery school.It is not my intention to belittle any teachings,schools or individuals,but to present my point of view in regard to Spiritual and /or mystery school.Before that,I joined Qigong class here on Veritas.Kouji is the Teacher with good reputation,and I decided to see what is in the class.In the start,we are all asked multiple questions.I didn't like some questions.It is my belief that teachings like qigong should't start with curiosity about other students,but rather focus on teachings,and let students talk about self when they want to.Then teachings.It was uncomfortably to read lectures,cos they were just quote/paste,grey letters on a grey surface,exactly from last year qigong course.No effort was made to present lectures in a new,fresh way.I didn't continue the course,for the same reason I didn't last year.Same quoted/pasted lectures-gray letters on a grey surface like all quoted posts.

Well, I don't see a problem in that.You know, only reason why TDS lectures are not "copy/pastah" is that they are retrieved from the database and "revealed" one by one each week, this is certainly done automatically, else it would be a waste of time to manually make article accessible for the user and also create a discussion forum for that and open chat, as well.

Kouji could also copy/paste the lessons and you wouldn't find out there were already used, but thanks to the quotation you can go through the past year and check older entries/experiences, as well. That's not so bad, right?

Well, I don't see a problem in that.You know, only reason why TDS lectures are not "copy/pastah" is that they are retrieved from the database and "revealed" one by one each week, this is certainly done automatically, else it would be a waste of time to manually make article accessible for the user and also create a discussion forum for that and open chat, as well.

Kouji could also copy/paste the lessons and you wouldn't find out there were already used, but thanks to the quotation you can go through the past year and check older entries/experiences, as well. That's not so bad, right?

Of course,If you take qigong course by Kouji,I will not see problem in that.