KoF XIII General Discussion: Part II

Comments

I want to avoid the subject since it is against forum rules, but I too have issues. Are you on pad? Similar issues were present back with BBCS but they were cleared up when console version hit. I haven't tried this on stick yet but I recall things being much easier on stick w/BBCS. Feel free to edit this post Noc/ry if it's going too far.

As for Mature yes she can still zone but not as good as in 98/02 due to her fireball nerf. It is much smaller and the edge tip is missing which would make it hard to jump, but now it's not as hard; still she can zone moderately well and her rush down is fairly decent.

I'd say to try out Andy actually.

Also yes there isn't really a tier list and I believe those ratio matches are based on character usage and not tier placing or anything that. K' and Raiden are top but after that it's arguable. Most of the characters in XIII are easy to pick up and solid enough, as Laban mentioned.

Yeah, most zoning characters in the game got a lot more tools such as lower, faster hops and more downward jump-ins to actually do hop pressure. Traditionally, zoners were mainly playing a strong neutral game and then pressed the advantage with blockstrings and traps once going on the offensive. So zoning characters were more passive aggressive than turtley in KOF, similar to how Guile does corner pressure in ST.

Duo Lon is more of a rush down character with great high/low mix ups that include his j.6B aerial chain combos and the ability to confirm his rekkas from jump-ins and empty hop lows and get another mix up after doing his rekka > teleport. Although his extending limbs are quite similar to Dhalsim's, it's more of an extended tool in controlling his neutral game and checking the opponent's counter approach rather than for straight up turtling since he only has two stretched limb attacks on the ground excluding the EX versions, and only two extended limb attacks in the air also baring the EX versions. Coupled with the fact that his cr.C isn't quite the fastest cr.C in the game to anti-air vertically, he isn't quite designed to be a zoner or turtle. He already doesn't do much damage as it is, so he has to make up for it by actually landing rekka combos and going for mix ups compensate. If he just keeps doing limbs, he's not going to be rewarded as much as if he was played on straight mix up offense. His jump-ins and hop arcs are more designed for rushdown so he's of that kind of character.

Takuma isn't quite the zoning character as he used to be like in 98 or 02um Ura Takuma. Takuma's fireball has quite the increase on start up and recovery compared to past incarnations and it's more easy to jump over his fireballs than ever before. What Takuma got now though is the ability to confirm Crouching Bs into an actual knockdown without needing meter and is fitted with a command grab now. Add to the fact SNKP retained his really low hop arc and his great j.D that is able to cross up well, Takuma is also suited more as a rushdown character this iteration. His fireball is more of a means to check and balance the ability of zoning characters have upon him.

King is a zoning character in the sense that her projectile is really easy to hop over and encourages the opponent to do so. In return, King has some of the best anti-air normals and air-to-air normals in the game; being: Far C, cl.C, cr.C, st.A, st.D, df.D (slide), j.B (up forward aerial control), j.D (downward horizontal aerial control), and j.CD (both upward and downward horizontal control at the expense of overhead properties). Add in Surprise Rose, EX Surprise Rose, EX Trap Shot, Tornado Kick, EX Tornado Kick, and her newly added aerial Venom Strikes, King controls a vast amount of the aerial space that forces the opponent to take a more grounded approach. With that ground approach, King is able to answer it with Venom Strikes. In a sense, King is more well suited for passive aggressive offense in most games due to the fact that her j.D had to hit late in the past because it came out almost instantly and hitting it early on an opponent doesn't net a combo. If she has to hit late with it, then the opponent could just do the usual timing on the Option Select st.C/D and hit her out before she lands. Every other attack she had didn't really have that well of a downward hitbox, but her hop arc was more standard than characters such as Athena/Joe/Kensou. In regards to KOFXIII, I'd say she has the ability to play a more hop oriented game with the homogenization zoning characters undertook to make them more "rushdown" but the old passive aggressive zoning style works just as well.

I wouldn't say the Shoto characters are that much of zoning characters though in the same sense that Takuma isn't really a zoning character in the game. They could zone in the old Street Fighter sense but aren't quite optimally played that way given how the subsystems in KOF work and how dps are generally quite weaker and not as rewarding as anti-air normals. With how these Shoto characters are designed, they're not quite suited to zoning and not obviously designed to zone to the extent that characters such as Athena are designed.

Although this character could do both actually, I'd say Ash is a pretty effective zoning character since he's the "Guile" Character. But now he's fitted with Qcfx2 supers, has a cancelable sweep that's not a silly Guile double sweep, great hop in jumping normals such as j.A and j.D, easy hitconfirm combos, control space well with his "Sonic Boom", and could do things such as charge his "Flash Kick" while running and do something like: Run > cr.B x3 xx d_u+B. He's interesting because he also is able to control the airspace quite well almost to the point that Iori could do so in previous games. Ash has a similar j.B in comparison to Iori and is able to limit grounded and aerial approaches with j.B and j.D. If an opponent tries to approach by landing above Ash's hop with a full jump or super jump, Ash has a more up forward air to air with j.C. Ash then has a great cr.C and quickly charged "Flash Kicks" to anti-air all the other angles an opponent may try to approach from, also noting that Ash still has a good st.A and Far C. Ash is also able to retreat, approach, and counter poke grounded normals and advances with his sobat attacks quite similarly to Guile; in this case though, both backwards and forwards sobat kicks are done by doing b+B and b+D respectively, giving Ash the time to charge his "Sonic Boom". Add in the fact he has an easy activation super that juggles the opponent, gives free cancel properties to Ash's special attacks, and the the ability to reduce charge times to 0 is really scary. He could do this super even off of his normal hitconfirms. Then he's given the opportunity to use an additional super in this mode that seals the opponent's command normals, specials, and super for a limited about of time. For zoning and offense, this character really has it well. He is just not as easy or one dimensional in aerial and ground control like K' is and doesn't do as much damage as K' does for the work Ash has to put in.

So yeah Tataki, there are zoning characters in this game. Either they became weaker, or they became stronger due to the ability to rushdown more making them less zoning-like. I'd say the most apparent zoning characters that remain primarily zoning but were given the best buffs are Athena, Kensou, and Ash so far with Joe trailing right behind.

Although this character could do both actually, I'd say Ash is a pretty effective zoning character since he's the "Guile" Character. But now he's fitted with Qcfx2 supers, has a cancelable sweep that's not a silly Guile double sweep, great hop in jumping normals such as j.A and j.D, easy hitconfirm combos, control space well with his "Sonic Boom", and could do things such as charge his "Flash Kick" while running and do something like: Run > cr.B x3 xx d_u+B. He's interesting because he also is able to control the airspace quite well almost to the point that Iori could do so in previous games. Ash has a similar j.B in comparison to Iori and is able to limit grounded and aerial approaches with j.B and j.D. If an opponent tries to approach by landing above Ash's hop with a full jump or super jump, Ash has a more up forward air to air with j.C. Ash then has a great cr.C and quickly charged "Flash Kicks" to anti-air all the other angles an opponent may try to approach from, also noting that Ash still has a good st.A and Far C. Ash is also able to retreat, approach, and counter poke grounded normals and advances with his sobat attacks quite similarly to Guile; in this case though, both backwards and forwards sobat kicks are done by doing b+B and b+D respectively, giving Ash the time to charge his "Sonic Boom". Add in the fact he has an easy activation super that juggles the opponent, gives free cancel properties to Ash's special attacks, and the the ability to reduce charge times to 0 is really scary. He could do this super even off of his normal hitconfirms. Then he's given the opportunity to use an additional super in this mode that seals the opponent's command normals, specials, and super for a limited about of time. For zoning and offense, this character really has it well. He is just not as easy or one dimensional in aerial and ground control like K' is and doesn't do as much damage as K' does for the work Ash has to put in.

Ash is probably the easiest character in the game. He's the most like a 3S character. All of his Supers are Double QCF, and his charge time is almost nothing. Anyone good with fundamentals would wreck with Ash.

So that makes her pretty much what I remember. Nothing special, but special. Alright, seems like I didn't need to worry about her being CvS2 level (Bad, but bad enough to be good). Thanks for the info!

I wonder how the SNKP KOFXIII sprite making division is holding up. They must have been working all this time on completing more sprites/characters for the console release.

They've had a lot more time than the gap between KOFXII arcade and console release, so maybe they will add 3 or more characters to the console version instead of just 2? Ahhh if only these sprites were worked on earlier they probably could have completed even more characters.

Maybe if they had double the team working on the sprites, they could probably add almost as many playable characters as KOFXI home version received (which added about 11, not counting bosses or EX Kyo. Well of course those were sprite rips so they were faster to complete. )

I honestly have no idea. This is the first on the Mai nerfing. How's King doing?

If anything, this iteration of Mai is one of the best that Mai has ever been. The frame advantage after cl.A and far A is almost pretty ridiculous and her ability to frame trap afterwards with cr.C is tremendous. Her cr.C's range and speed have been improved from the past and is able to hit a lot of normals and special moves. It helps that Mai is able to establish running and walking pressure not only with cl.A and far A but now with cr.B as she doesn't have a slide to overlap her motions as she tries to run and cr.B. Put that together with a great j.CD, j.D, and j.C for air-to-air and limiting ground movement, Mai is able to simply trap opponents from making maneuvers and limits approach. If an opponent even thinks of trying to air to air a hop j.C or something of the like, the opponent will most likely eat an option select air throw while doing so. Also add in the fact that st.B hits all of the crouching cast, Mai can virtually limit all movement within the hop and ground space, counter poke and blockstring pressure, and frustrate the opponent into pure blocking.

Playing this game more against real people, I'd say the true reason why the top tier are top tier or rather popular is due to damage rather than actual tools with the exception of drop kick. I wouldn't say that drop kick needs to be nerfed though as it adds an interesting dynamic that no other grappler in KOF ever had. It's just the EX Shoulder Tackles in the corner that actually do the bulk of the damage with little committal to charging, as in it charges easily. Drop Kicks limit the overall good tool set Raiden has for about a good 15 seconds and sets him a part from other grappling characters that have good cross ups or light attack hitconfirms into command throws. In my opinion, Drop Kick into Drop Kick should remain as it is, but no other special move or super should connect after it. Otherwise playing against K' or Shen Woo is very doable, it's just their damage outputs are just larger and a bit easier compared to the cast, such as doing Ash Sans Culotte combos into Hyper Drive combos into finishing juggle combos for less reward than doing a million Shen Woo punches.

Speaking of Ash, I wouldn't say he's the easiest character in the game. It's K' or Shen just due to natural designs of the character. Playing more Shen Woo though, he's really good because he has everything. Even 98 style cr.B > command throw just like Daimon.

I wouldn't say King is mediocre, but she does lack damage amongst most of the cast. Also I've been testing more zoning strategies in XIII, Tataki. So far it has been working pretty well against people. I'll try to play against Dune and the other Japanese players coming over to EVO and test my findings against their knowledge and strong fundamentals and see how it rolls. It's mainly trying to play my style against characters such as solid K', Kyo, Raiden, etc.

To emphasize again, Mai has some good shit. On a different tangent, I have some dirty shit with Iori right now but I'll save that for later.

By the way Mai was actually good in 98 og and had tools to actually fight the top tier. Look up Ching Lung playing against Dakou for an example. 02um Mai is quite viable as well and I'd say 02um Mai would be the most fun and have a good diversity of tools and damage output. 98 Mai though actually has better grounded answers to full jumps other than cl.D such as dp+D and even eats Chris' j.CD alive. It's just there are other more obvious zoners or easier/gimmicky characters that people would rather play.

Ryo is really good as well. His cl.D in previous games is now his st.D without any difference between close and far. Really beefy pressure and frametrap move. His Koken still has a good hitbox and is able to frametrap as well, especially EX version being to meaty, fast, and safe. I've seen someone just mash 3-4 EX Koken endgame and it worked. In the corner, Ryo could always combo A version Koken into B version Hienshippu Kyaku. Ryo can do cr.B x2, st.A xx B Hienshippu Kyaku on all the characters in the game, just pay mind you have to really chain the two cr.Bs closely. Ryo's DP is still Ryo's DP. st.CD is still pretty good as it is. Ryo has that better j.CD where he helicopters so he's able to have more downward j.CD pressure to lock down opponents as he's trying to get his empty hop and hop pressure. He doesn't have overhead properties if he delay cancels his f.A overhead, but his f.A overhead can plainly super cancel now. He can cr.B, cr.A xx Neomax as well as f.A xx Neomax. Far C super cancels as well, could set up for another frametrap.

So in essence, Ryo is really good; you just have to know how to really do your blockstring pressure and you have to know how to get in and be able to frametrap and guard break. You could even bait out Counter CD attacks by just canceling that move in your string that you think will get Counter CD'd by doing his parries, f.B and df.B. You could even confirm a guard break using normals and then shorten the recovery and go into a combo by using whiff parries as well. He's a really solid character but you can't be a dumb scrub and do silly shit like qcf+B > dp+A blockstrings. You have to play him solidly, he can't really do running cr.B pressure like other characters for a stronger high/low game but he makes up for it by uniquely having one of the stronger frametrap games amongst the characters.

Robert is Robert, he plays a basic offensive high/low game coupled with having a command grab. His j.D is still really difficult to deal with and he still has a good dive attack. He could play a basic neutral game with fireballs and anti-air attacks and then be able to stack on his offensive and make the opponent want to counter approach, in which Robert could start turtling/zoning it out with backwards hop j.D and the such. He could do simple combos like cr.B, cr.A, f.B xx fbf+k or hcf+k, and simple jump-in/hop-in combos. I'm feeling his j.D could troll Ein Triggers in the close/mid-close game.

Takuma is Takuma like 98 Takuma except with a worse off fireball game but a better inside game. In 98, the only way to hitconfirm into a knockdown without using super was really to delay cancel cr.B or cr.A into f.B to get that hard knockdown. In 02um, Ura Takuma had the same thing but at least he could extend his damage by doing a df.B OTG. Now Takuma has things such as a command grab and quickly charging Hienshippu Kyaku to knockdown and also lead into big drive cancel combos into stun. So although his zoning is slightly not as good, he certainly isn't worse off.

Mature, as I've been testing, is still really good. She is even relevant in games such as 98 og or 02um like a secret high tier character. In this iteration, she could play her zoning game to some extent, her fireball isn't as good first off. That encourages more jumps from more angles to get over it, but now Mature has a faster j.D attack to cover that up-forward range as she's hopping or jumping. Her j.C really isn't as much used in this application as it was in the past, but it has a good general hitbox both forward and downwards and slightly upwards. Where she can't cover with her j.C, she has j.D. In regards to her j.CD, it doesn't cover the same space it does but it covers that downward, horizontal space extremely quickly. Since pushback on j.CDs is only applicable to the opponent and not the attacker, Mature could just abuse neutral hop j.CD just like Blanka could abuse neutral j.RH in Hyper Fighting. Same with any other character with a downward, horizontal j.CD since the attacker doesn't get pushed back.

What Mature focuses in on now is her great frametrap game and her ambiguous far and close B. That new qcb+B move Mature has is now better as it does pretty decent chip and is relatively safe while moving her forward. Pile in both far and close B cancel, either hit of close B cancels, cr.A cancels and could chain from cr.B, and both far and close C attacks are fast and cancel while moving Mature forward; Mature is a frametrap/chip nightmare. She has a better, standard jump-in attack with j.C, and Mature could frametrap an anti-air attempt with a neutral hop j.CD. Mature's first rekka is relatively safe on block, so she has a few applications and commitments with it. She could try to confirm a rekka and be safe on block and possibly get more damage if it actually hits but be pushed out on block and somewhat end offensive momentum, or get guaranteed chip that moves her forward to continue pressure with qcb+B but lose an opportunity on hit to continue damage.

Also EX fireball is really good for Mature. One time I got a full screen knockdown and did EX fireball and had enough time to run and jump over the opponent before the fireball hit. It's a good slow, 3-hit projectile in which Mature could follow closely and the opponent should not ever jump or roll because she will punish either.

I'm tired of people saying certain characters are bad or not good. It's as if no one has an imagination to find new strategies or possibilities anymore.

Dunno, Yuri is still Yuri. I'd say she's some in between of 98 and 02 Yuri plus Demon Flips/Dives. I wouldn't say dives are as relevant in this game than in SF due to the ability to space with hops and jumps. You could just simply hop j.D with Kyo and keep her out and she'd have to play a more normal KOF meta-game. I'd say her new strength might lie in the actual Demon Flip but it might be overshadowed by solid basics she has in this game. She has easy 02 Yuri like hit confirms into DP, but she could do run cr.B pressure better than 02 Yuri but more similarly to 98 Yuri. She still has a pretty low-to-the-ground hitting j.C that you can toss out early as an OS Airthrow. She's able to control the basic space well with a good sweep, decent far C, good cr.C, st.B, Koken and cr.D xx Koken, and etc. Having the ability to do both her grounded Air Koken and mid-jump Air Koken is a good plus for zoning and traps. Solid jump-ins and air-to-airs all around.

Over all she is a good basic character that beginners could pick up. It's just she no longer has an infamously small crouching hitbox now and Leona could just j.A instant overhead xx V-slash Yuri as well. I guess dive is good, but it's overrated. People should be more hype for moves such as st.B actually hitting crouchers now and cancels into DP.

jus wondering, is there any frame data for kof 13 around anywhere? maybe a japanese technical guide of some sorts

also a question; how is the team building in this game? is it like marvel where all kinds of stuff matters such as who builds meter, who uses meter more efficiently and who works best first etc? or is it more kinda pick your 3 favorites and go?

im interested in running ryo and iori in some way, is this a viable in anyway? im thinking iori in the back as anchor(purely because i only see him in the back in the vids so im guessing hes a good anchor, no experience with him to judge) and im thinking ryo second? i still havent really seen a 3rd character yet, any reccomendations that could aid this team so far?

sorry for the noob questions, im a kof noob waiting for 13 to hit consoles

I wouldn't say frame data is relevant in learning KOF. What you need is to learn fundamentals and basics first. Team building is more like pick your 3 favorites and go. I tested some new Iori technology and he could be played first, it's just most people prefer to do big combos with him so they put him at the end. Ryo is a solid character and could be played in first or second as well. It all depends on which character you want the meter for for your last position and it's up to you. If a character has a weak crouching, low-hitting light attack combo, then you could put the meter on them for anchor like Shen Woo then do crouching light attacks into Hyper Drive mode and do a big combo from something that didn't give you damage in the first place.

I'd say try to learn you characters in KOF98 or 02 and just make minor adjustments to your game when XIII is out.

i see, thanks for the answers it will make picking my team that much easier

frame data isnt really relevant to learning any fighter really but u cant say it isnt a resource than can help people up there game greatly, even if its just knowing when its safe to push what button where

in the end i do want to learn fundamentals first and foremost before anything else, thats really what comes first in any fighter

frame data isnt really relevant to learning any fighter really but u cant say it isnt a resource than can help people up there game greatly, even if its just knowing when its safe to push what button where

Framedata is something we're going to have to work out ourselves. I hope to get to it at some point. But it's a lot of work, especially to do on your own.

Anyway, framedata is going to look weird if you're not used to KOF. You don't need absolute frame advantage to stay on offense, moves that are -1, or even -4 on block are 'pretty good' and could even be considered to be advantageous. It becomes useful after some time, but you really need to know the fundamentals of the game, which are quite radically different from SF to make sense of it at all.

Besides that hitstun is universal (just like any kof) so you can actually 'feel' or 'see' how bad something is on block.

i see, thanks for the answers it will make picking my team that much easier

frame data isnt really relevant to learning any fighter really but u cant say it isnt a resource than can help people up there game greatly, even if its just knowing when its safe to push what button where

in the end i do want to learn fundamentals first and foremost before anything else, thats really what comes first in any fighter

ill take ur advice and try out the older games for sure

Personally I go by feel. I'd say for reference, you could search around for KOF Crazy Encyclopedia's (KCE) frame data and hitbox data for KOF98. You could use this as reference to see what might be similar in XIII.

http://dune-enud.web.infoseek.co.jp/kouryaku/iori/waza.html
Here's Iori for example. If you look at his cl.C attack, the start up is 2 frames, the active is 7 frames, and the recovery is 14 frames. With the amount of blockstun it induces in addition to the amount of pushback, it's pretty much safe on block. If you feel out the move, you could tell that it's fast and pretty meaty. With a hitbox like that, it's great for anti-air and frame traps.

http://dune-enud.web.infoseek.co.jp/kouryaku/omoteryo/waza.html
And here's Ryo's frame data and hitbox data. If you see that fourth picture, that's Ryo's cl.D. In XIII, that is his standing D regardless of close or far; and you could tell with that hitbox, start up, and active frames that it'll be a really beefy move to put in blockstrings and frame traps.

Framedata is something we're going to have to work out ourselves. I hope to get to it at some point. But it's a lot of work, especially to do on your own.

Anyway, framedata is going to look weird if you're not used to KOF. You don't need absolute frame advantage to stay on offense, moves that are -1, or even -4 on block are 'pretty good' and could even be considered to be advantageous. It becomes useful after some time, but you really need to know the fundamentals of the game, which are quite radically different from SF to make sense of it at all.

Besides that hitstun is universal (just like any kof) so you can actually 'feel' or 'see' how bad something is on block.

yeah i know what u mean about not needing absolute frame advantage, in tekken most moves that are -9 or below are considered safe since jabs are all 10 frame startup so anything less than that is safe

its a shame that no company did a technical guide for kof13 like the ones for ae or blazblue, guess its the old set the dummy to do a move then block, try everything to punish it till something works for punishes and for air tight offense we gotta figure out our selves