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Well, if the intent is self-defense, then there are a number of questions to ask.

To start with, how self defense focussed do you want to be? Do you want to do a traditional art, with traditional values and sensibilities that will have some crossover value or do you want to primarily focus on self defense (SD) skills across a wide variety of armed and unarmed applications?

In many cases, emphasis on traditionalism or combat sport is counter-productive to a broad base in SD skills - yes, even with the so-called "battlefield traditions of armed grappling" - the main reason being time spent and efficiency of training.

I have never studied a martial art or combat sport that is a well rounded SD method of itself. The more you get into costumes and ritual (whether its a hakama or a pair of Tapout shorts...), the more you practice with the sword than the gun, the further you are drifting from practical self defense.

However, almost all MA have something to offer for SD, or inform SD. Some of them, as is, are fine for self defense against the majority of "drunk uncle" or "aggressive panhandler" encounters you may face. Its how you put it together and how you go on to train with it.

Any martial artist will gain by adopting the MMA "approach" to self defense (i.e. choosing and developing specific skills, from different base arts for different fight parameters (armed and unarmed), and then pressure testing them against progressive resistance up to and including full contact/full resistance counter-fighting).

There is no reason that an aikidoka cannot delve into BJJ or Judo or muay Thai to develop a more rounded approach to unarmed self defense, then spend some time in a modern tactical knife system to develop a base there, then concealed handgun training to develop the skills there, then awareness and threat management skills, then force on force scenario training to test their integration etc. etc.

But all that is less time that you have to spend doing aikido....

May not matter, if your goal is not "professional level" SD skills, Even doing traditional aikido will put you ahead of most people, so long as you maintain an awareness and SD-focussed sensibility. You can get the latter from books, reading the newspaper, and just paying attention to what's going on around you.

But if you intend to be well prepared, not just "familiar," with a serious assault that may go to the ground, or in dealing with firearm and knife attacks, and in realistically addressing multiple threat encounters, or in dealing with a real world assault by a trained and committed individual who may have a different skill base and greater attributes than yours, you'll need to spend a lot more time working on things far outside the realm of what is offered in the traditional dojo or combat sport gym.

Well, if the intent is self-defense, then there are a number of questions to ask.

To start with, how self defense focussed do you want to be? Do you want to do a traditional art, with traditional values and sensibilities that will have some crossover value or do you want to primarily focus on self defense (SD) skills across a wide variety of armed and unarmed applications?

In many cases, emphasis on traditionalism or combat sport is counter-productive to a broad base in SD skills - yes, even with the so-called "battlefield traditions of armed grappling" - the main reason being time spent and efficiency of training.

I have never studied a martial art or combat sport that is a well rounded SD method of itself. The more you get into costumes and ritual (whether its a hakama or a pair of Tapout shorts...), the more you practice with the sword than the gun, the further you are drifting from practical self defense.

However, almost all MA have something to offer for SD, or inform SD. Some of them, as is, are fine for self defense against the majority of "drunk uncle" or "aggressive panhandler" encounters you may face. Its how you put it together and how you go on to train with it.

Any martial artist will gain by adopting the MMA "approach" to self defense (i.e. choosing and developing specific skills, from different base arts for different fight parameters (armed and unarmed), and then pressure testing them against progressive resistance up to and including full contact/full resistance counter-fighting).

There is no reason that an aikidoka cannot delve into BJJ or Judo or muay Thai to develop a more rounded approach to unarmed self defense, then spend some time in a modern tactical knife system to develop a base there, then concealed handgun training to develop the skills there, then awareness and threat management skills, then force on force scenario training to test their integration etc. etc.

But all that is less time that you have to spend doing aikido....

May not matter, if your goal is not "professional level" SD skills, Even doing traditional aikido will put you ahead of most people, so long as you maintain an awareness and SD-focussed sensibility. You can get the latter from books, reading the newspaper, and just paying attention to what's going on around you.

But if you intend to be well prepared, not just "familiar," with a serious assault that may go to the ground, or in dealing with firearm and knife attacks, and in realistically addressing multiple threat encounters, or in dealing with a real world assault by a trained and committed individual who may have a different skill base and greater attributes than yours, you'll need to spend a lot more time working on things far outside the realm of what is offered in the traditional dojo or combat sport gym.

Even the ones that claim to be "combat" or "self defense" oriented.

You read my mind, Kit! I have taken "reality-based" self-defense courses in the past (usually being the mixture of Karate, Judo, boxing, Jujutsu & Aikido where you go full force against an "attacker" wearing one of those big padded "anti-bear" suits...I especially enjoy practicing my groin kicks and throat strikes at full speed...not to mention eye-gouging!) and am currently taking one now. I am also looking into some tactical CQC training, including tactical knife, which compliments nicely with Aiki-Ken & Jo (i.e. replace bokken or jo with an everyday walking cane which I use for "style" or faux orthopedic support when I go out on the town at night). Obviously, I approach Aikido as a martial art of self-defense and wish to perfect it by supplementing my traditional Aikido training with tactical CQC training. That's how I "keep it real." More importantly, though, I don't look good in a Speedo!

Send me a PM, yours is disabled. I can point you to some courses/instructors you might be interested in.

I will say one of the better guys at weapon retention in a resistive format I have trained with was a fellow student at a CQC handgun course I took - and an aikidoka. He'd given up traditional aikido practice because he got more into self protection studies, but trying to take his gun from him was a painful experience....

For what it's worth, 90% of the striking I've encountered at Aikido dojos is half-hearted at best. Furthermore, the 3 main strikes Aikido uses (shomen, yokomen, tsuki) are ridiculous attacks. Maybe they supposed to mimic weapon striking, I don't know. However, none of them come close to what a real strike would be like. Plus, I don't think I've ever been to an Aikido dojo where they practice combinations. Even unskilled people with no martial arts training are not going to stop with one punch. They'll just keep throwing bomb after bomb at someone in hopes of overwhelming the person they are attacking. Lastly, if you're practicing against strikes, the person doing the striking has to wear pads and be able to actually strike and win the training interaction. Otherwise it's just play acting and no one is getting anything out of it; if your goal is actually learning how to deal with striking in a conflict situation. If one's goal is something else; learning to blend, light exercise, fun, etc. than it's quite alright.

Absolutely correct. Essentially, I would add only one caveat: such halfhearted attacking is not only insufficient for self defense or combat sport, but in fact will not cut it for someone who (like me, more or less) is really just in it to study aikido for its own sake. The feel of a technique - the heart and soul of aikido experience - is ruined when uke attacks feebly. Both partners suffer:

* Nage: Gets in the habit of 'tap-blocking', or gesturing. A real strike, one that will slam right through a halfheartedly raised arm put right on the path of force, forces nage to actually blend.
* Uke: One of uke's main goals in an aikido technique is to get back on balance, and into a defensible position relative to nage. When I strike with the intent to hit (or at least, stop just short), and do not allow myself to "cheat" by thinking about the technique nage will do in response (and instead assuming they could do anything - including get whacked), technique is more surprising and tends to break my balance much more thoroughly.

This discussion is actually somewhat old hat in aikido circles, although clearly many dojo have not heeded the call. Even if the strikes are silly, if they aren't even committed actions with a clear goal, all of aikido practice suffers. There are lots of ways to improve this, but again a lot of it has been discussed already.

Take home message: next time you're in practice, strike with integrity. Not to be a jerk or "beat up" your partner, but to let them practice some real live aikido. In freestyle, if you miss, don't stop for a lunch break; keep moving, striking again and again, as though nage were actually your enemy. If you "hit" them (obviously, stopping just short of actual contact), ALSO keep striking, until they do something effective.

Quote:

Keith Lee wrote:

They [MMAers] are bringing together various bits of separate fighting disciplines and integrating them into one new, complete fighting package: MMA. Essentially: Thai boxing + Wrestling + Judo/Sambo + BJJ. Aikido is not a part of it because its techniques and training methodology are inferior and ineffective in a combat sports context.

Some people disagree; I myself am skeptical of aikido's applicability to MMA combat sport, but still open-minded about the matter. As for MMA being the pinnacle of martial arts evolution, I think that's probably true, in terms of UFC-style bouts. Obviously, various koryu are probably the best place to look for historical weapons proficiency. At any rate, I think it can be a positive pressure, by giving us a look at the state-of-the-art sportfighting methods.

re: William --
"Atemi is 70 percent, technique is 30 percent."
or
"Atemi is 99 percent of aikido."
Whichever version you like. (Maybe one's by weight, the other by volume?) I myself study Yoshokai aikido, a derivative of Yoshinkan; we certainly use atemi. It could probably be improved by some thoughtful study about how to best deliver strikes from aikido positions. As it is, arguably it's not too relevant, as the stated purpose of strikes is generally just to make uke flinch, or try to use their arm to block, or somtehing of that nature. Still, a strike that would actually hurt if it DID land is probably the best way to do that. After all, the ultimate idea is to deliver a blow that hurts enough that uke's balance will be disrupted. Or so I'm led to believe.

re: Kit --
I should probably clarify. I have sort of an unusual tack on the matter. If I had to choose, I would categorize myself in the ranks of people who practice aikido purely for its own sake, as something based in martial arts traditions. However, I believe the only way to do that justice is to practice it as a genuine martial art. Even if it'll never be the "best art in town", or even necessarily part of the "ultimate fighter"'s repertoire, it ought to "work". Just like an antique typewriter is worth most if it can still actually fill a page with text; it's no longer its most important function, but it's part of what it is.

I respectfully disagree with most of your statement especially the last sentence...

William Hazen

That's okay, there's only 10+ years of combat sports out there on tape, showing a wide range of fighting styles, up unto the emergence of MMA as it's own style, in which there has never been a successful Aikidoka fighter. Also very few fighters have used anything that even remotely comes close to Aikido techniques in combat sports. Yet one sees thai boxing, wrestling, BJJ, and sometimes Judo in almost every MMA fight. The training most fighters undergo is also the same: weight training, cardio, "alive" boxing/wrestling/BJJ drills etc. I have never read/seen/heard of an interview where a pro-fighter speaks of some type of Aikido training as part of his regimen. There is little to none of the type of paired kata-like practice found in Aikido. It is there to initially learn techniques but it quickly moves to "alive" resistant training. Also, I have my own personal empirical evidence and experience as an Aikido practitioner and a person who trains in sub-grappling and MMA. Aikido techniques do not come up that often, period. Furthermore, Aikido style training does not really do me a whole lot of good in terms of practice once things get to "alive"/fully resistant speeds. Plus, other individuals on this board who train in Aikido and MMA as well seem to have all come to the same conclusions. Therefore, I feel pretty confident in my statement:

Aikido is not a part of it because its techniques and training methodology are inferior and ineffective in a combat sports context. Please note the emphasis.

Actually Jason Delucia claims aikido training as part of his MMA training. He is not a very successful MMA fighter, but he still is a MMA fighter.

Quote:

DeLucia left Pancrase and the spotlight in 2001 but continues to adapt
and refine the art of Aikido. He fought for Frank Shamrock's Shootbox
in 2003 and has a line of Combat Aikido DVDs available through Century
and budovideos.com.

"As you can see, there's really no superior art, it's really what's
current. If you want to be homogenized then you'll meet a lot of
deadlock. But the guts and roots of traditional styles provide fresh
approaches to current trends.The highest distillation of all Japanese
martial arts produced Aikido, and it stands to reason that it happened
100 years ago in Japan under similar circumstances," DeLucia
said. "The highest evolution 'Aiki' is present in all arts will be
integrated to overcome the current trend. If people wonder what Aiki
in Aikido is, it's simply leading someone to a conclusion rather than
forcing someone to it."

DeLucia trains steadily and is preparing to return to mainstream MMA
with London based Cage Rage next year. You can join him at
jasondelucia.com and aikidog.com.

That's okay, there's only 10+ years of combat sports out there on tape, showing a wide range of fighting styles, up unto the emergence of MMA as it's own style, in which there has never been a successful Aikidoka fighter. Also very few fighters have used anything that even remotely comes close to Aikido techniques in combat sports. Yet one sees thai boxing, wrestling, BJJ, and sometimes Judo in almost every MMA fight. The training most fighters undergo is also the same: weight training, cardio, "alive" boxing/wrestling/BJJ drills etc. I have never read/seen/heard of an interview where a pro-fighter speaks of some type of Aikido training as part of his regimen. There is little to none of the type of paired kata-like practice found in Aikido. It is there to initially learn techniques but it quickly moves to "alive" resistant training. Also, I have my own personal empirical evidence and experience as an Aikido practitioner and a person who trains in sub-grappling and MMA. Aikido techniques do not come up that often, period. Furthermore, Aikido style training does not really do me a whole lot of good in terms of practice once things get to "alive"/fully resistant speeds. Plus, other individuals on this board who train in Aikido and MMA as well seem to have all come to the same conclusions. Therefore, I feel pretty confident in my statement:

Aikido is not a part of it because its techniques and training methodology are inferior and ineffective in a combat sports context. Please note the emphasis.

First off...I disagree with the phrase "Combat Sport"...It's an Oxymronic Marketing Phrase which has never been used among the Professional MMA Organizations I know. I do agree it is a sport and that it employs Martial Arts but it is not about combat. Combat is about killing folks as quickly and as efficiently as possible. All the Asian Arts with the possible exception of Aikido and Sumo and some of the softer Chinese styles are about causing maximum pain and destruction.

Second MMA is a SPORT with rules that employs techniques with rules to win a match and very rarely results in death or serious injury.

Third. You might agree that your personal emperical evidence is very limited (as evidenced in part by Don Mcgee and I's mention of Jason DeLucia.) The Aiki" in Aikido is no different in Application that in most any of the Japanese Ryu-Ha aka Combat Arts. the ONLY differance is in it's INTENT. Which is the reason you won't see it employed in a SPORT setting. Aikido Techniques have successfully used for DECADES in the real world by Police Officers to Housewives.

Last Though I will agree that the The Spirit of Aikido has been watered down a bit by well meaning but clueless folks for most of us it is still a BUDO first with a radically different approach to resolving conflict.

Much has been made of "aliveness" training as the reason for the lack of realism in Aikido. Well I ask you...Whose fault is that?

If you feel you suck at Aikido because of the way you're being trained...What are you going to do about it???

Absolutely correct. Essentially, I would add only one caveat: such halfhearted attacking is not only insufficient for self defense or combat sport, but in fact will not cut it for someone who (like me, more or less) is really just in it to study aikido for its own sake. The feel of a technique - the heart and soul of aikido experience - is ruined when uke attacks feebly. Both partners suffer:

* Nage: Gets in the habit of 'tap-blocking', or gesturing. A real strike, one that will slam right through a halfheartedly raised arm put right on the path of force, forces nage to actually blend.
* Uke: One of uke's main goals in an aikido technique is to get back on balance, and into a defensible position relative to nage. When I strike with the intent to hit (or at least, stop just short), and do not allow myself to "cheat" by thinking about the technique nage will do in response (and instead assuming they could do anything - including get whacked), technique is more surprising and tends to break my balance much more thoroughly.

This discussion is actually somewhat old hat in aikido circles, although clearly many dojo have not heeded the call. Even if the strikes are silly, if they aren't even committed actions with a clear goal, all of aikido practice suffers. There are lots of ways to improve this, but again a lot of it has been discussed already.

Take home message: next time you're in practice, strike with integrity. Not to be a jerk or "beat up" your partner, but to let them practice some real live aikido. In freestyle, if you miss, don't stop for a lunch break; keep moving, striking again and again, as though nage were actually your enemy. If you "hit" them (obviously, stopping just short of actual contact), ALSO keep striking, until they do something effective.

Some people disagree; I myself am skeptical of aikido's applicability to MMA combat sport, but still open-minded about the matter. As for MMA being the pinnacle of martial arts evolution, I think that's probably true, in terms of UFC-style bouts. Obviously, various koryu are probably the best place to look for historical weapons proficiency. At any rate, I think it can be a positive pressure, by giving us a look at the state-of-the-art sportfighting methods.

re: William --
"Atemi is 70 percent, technique is 30 percent."
or
"Atemi is 99 percent of aikido."
Whichever version you like. (Maybe one's by weight, the other by volume?) I myself study Yoshokai aikido, a derivative of Yoshinkan; we certainly use atemi. It could probably be improved by some thoughtful study about how to best deliver strikes from aikido positions. As it is, arguably it's not too relevant, as the stated purpose of strikes is generally just to make uke flinch, or try to use their arm to block, or somtehing of that nature. Still, a strike that would actually hurt if it DID land is probably the best way to do that. After all, the ultimate idea is to deliver a blow that hurts enough that uke's balance will be disrupted. Or so I'm led to believe.

re: Kit --
I should probably clarify. I have sort of an unusual tack on the matter. If I had to choose, I would categorize myself in the ranks of people who practice aikido purely for its own sake, as something based in martial arts traditions. However, I believe the only way to do that justice is to practice it as a genuine martial art. Even if it'll never be the "best art in town", or even necessarily part of the "ultimate fighter"'s repertoire, it ought to "work". Just like an antique typewriter is worth most if it can still actually fill a page with text; it's no longer its most important function, but it's part of what it is.

I prefer the "Rythem of Atemi." And just as an aside our practice does have Atemi for every postion inside a technique and it's designed to End the conflict so forget about "taps"

I am so sorry that Aikido in your limited experiance sucks, and I admire your attempts to continue. Let me assure you that in some parts of the Aikido World Aikido as Budo is the only way it's practiced.

Most of my students come from a Striking Art like Shotokan or Go Ju Ryu Karate so "striking" is second nature to them. What amazes them is how many strikes are actually inside a technique.

First off...I disagree with the phrase "Combat Sport"...It's an Oxymronic Marketing Phrase which has never been used among the Professional MMA Organizations I know. I do agree it is a sport and that it employs Martial Arts but it is not about combat. Combat is about killing folks as quickly and as efficiently as possible. All the Asian Arts with the possible exception of Aikido and Sumo and some of the softer Chinese styles are about causing maximum pain and destruction.

Second MMA is a SPORT with rules that employs techniques with rules to win a match and very rarely results in death or serious injury.

Right, and all these guys who are in the SPORT couldn't make the adjustment to beat the crap out of someone if they wanted to. Yet Aikidoka, and many TMAers can't make the transistion to SPORT. Odd.

Quote:

Third. You might agree that your personal emperical evidence is very limited (as evidenced in part by Don Mcgee and I's mention of Jason DeLucia.) The Aiki" in Aikido is no different in Application that in most any of the Japanese Ryu-Ha aka Combat Arts. the ONLY differance is in it's INTENT. Which is the reason you won't see it employed in a SPORT setting. Aikido Techniques have successfully used for DECADES in the real world by Police Officers to Housewives.

No offenese to DeLucia, but he has never been a successfull fighter. All the respect in the world to him; he's probably a better athelete and fighter than I will ever be, but he isn't in the elite. Also, when he was competing regularly he never mentioned Aikido. He was always a kung fu guy. Now he claims Aikido, but it's after he finished the main part of his fighting career. Regardless, he's one guy out of thousands. Not really that great of an example.

Quote:

Last Though I will agree that the The Spirit of Aikido has been watered down a bit by well meaning but clueless folks for most of us it is still a BUDO first with a radically different approach to resolving conflict.

Much has been made of "aliveness" training as the reason for the lack of realism in Aikido. Well I ask you...Whose fault is that?

If you feel you suck at Aikido because of the way you're being trained...What are you going to do about it???

I for one know more than a few Aikidoka who train hard.

No, I don't agree that my empirical evidence is limited. I've trained in Aikido for ten years now. I spent a year as an uchi deshi to a Yoshinkan 6th dan. I trained all the time. I've trained at dozens of Aikido dojos. Didn't make a bit of difference when I walked into a BJJ gym for the first time. I've trained in BJJ/MMA for 3 years now and have progressed enourmously. I've been to lots of BJJ gyms now as well. The conclusion that any person that is willing to be honest with themselves is that the whole SPORT/SELF DEFENSE arguement is a load of crap. Any MMA guy will function well in either environment. Aikido practioners and many TMAers will function well in only one.

To add a counterpoint as to why Aikido waza is not seen in MMA events I believe the general ruleset of MMA events are major factors as to why Aikido-type waza and strategies just don't apply very well. This is not so much in what techniques are allowed etc. but just good tactical sense regarding the rules of engagement when in an MMA bout.

MMA bouts involve 2 attackers in a ring with gloves, tights etc and are asked to go at it. They will use what works easiest and best for them under those conditions. Everything that is selected to be used in the ring or octagon is directly related to its potential to render success in the engagement. The techniques and tactics used in MMA comps today would change drastically if we introduced something as simple as a knife into the present ruleset or removed the use of protective gloves for example. Aikido tactics and strategies really don't operate quite well under the MMA ruleset and as a result it would not make sense for most MMA-ers to study Aikido to improve their game. How many Kendoka study Aikido to improve their game? Alternatively all the competitive Aikidoka I know don't study Muay Thai or BJJ to improve their shiai game either.

The reason why it is important to understand that conditions influence strategy and tactics can be seen if we place the MMA-ist in a Kendo match, or a Shodokan Aikido-type shiai match for example. All of a sudden many high percentage tactics like like double leg takedowns, shoots, ground grappling skills, muay thai striking skills etc. are totally useless because of the conditions of the contest and the rulesets. This is not to say that the same skills of the MMA-ist indicated above are not effective in other contexts.

I think this is important when we measure Aikido against things like MMA or "combat sport". Perspective has to be maintained. For example, Judo regards itself as combat sport from my understanding, however due to the common ground shared in some aspects of Judo and Aikido one can use limited Aikido tactics in Judo shiai and come out successful. The reason this is so comes down to the ruleset allowing such a thing to be possible and really does not say much as to the useability of these skillsets when there are no rules as seen in a purely combative sense. Context is important imho.

Regarding atemi, this is important I think. Someone big in the Aikido world once said something along the lines that quality Aiki waza needs quality raw materials: Uke's attack, Tori's skill in tai sabaki, connection, blending etc. and Uke's ukemi skill all work together to manifest superb waza. If the attack is poor the waza will be poor. This applies to both Tori and uke. Imho attacks should not be modified or structurally weakened to allow the performance of waza easier for Tori. It is Tori's job to manifest Aiki in a manner that resolves the conflict. The challenge is Tori's to deal with, he must rise to it. This applies whether the attack is empty handed or with a weapon. In Aikido one should strike like a skilled striker and handle a knife like a skilled knife fighter or handle a sword like a skilled swordsman. This presents the best standard to work with through which one can manifest proper, skilled Aiki waza based on skilled attacks. Of course if we all do this the numbers of practicing Aikidoka will dwindle substantially.

There are Aikidoka out there whose fist, shuto and tegatana are used as direct, effective offensive weapons (much like pure strikers). Yokomen and tsuki from them will floor most people if not do more damage. Imho quality is expressed by the artist, not the art. If you allow mediocrity to reign in your training then your best expression will be a mediocre one. Competition tends to make one constantly strive for perfection since the performance bar is continually being raised by ones peers. Ones lack of understanding is instantly revealed through resistant freeplay (rolling). This is where MMA's approach and more generally the competitive approach assists one's development in Budo. One cannot sit on ones laurels for long without being challenged to improve. Improvement is easily revealed by ones actions, i.e. ones ability or success as expressed in resistant freeply. How many Aikidoka can lay claim to this sort of training environment?

Third. You might agree that your personal emperical evidence is very limited (as evidenced in part by Don Mcgee and I's mention of Jason DeLucia.)

Respectfully,

William Hazen

With the change of a single letter, I'm suddenly Irish

I see nothing wrong with the term combat sports. That is exactly what they are Sports that simulate as closely as possible combat. Airsoft and paintball are combat sports, MMA is a combat sport, those dog brother stick fighting things are combat sports.

I'd define combat as purposeful conflict between one or more persons intended to establish dominance over the opposition.

However I do wonder why so many TMA people get so uptight about what words are used. I'm frequently told that bjj is not jiujitsu. I'm told judo is no longer a martial art because it is a sport, I'm told the same about MMA, I'm told combat is about killing people. I've never heard anyone I train with in my 'sports' talk about TMA's use of vocab as a means to dispute it's existence. They focus on the things that matter in a martial art. Namely training methods, techniques, and philosophy (The manner in which one goes about applying those techniques). The TMA vocab argument reminds me of the hacker vs cracker wars on slashdot. Who cares if hacker means someone who breaks into systems, or someone who tinkers with hardware and software on the free time. It still doesn't change what either of the two are doing.

The next argument usually made is the exception to the rule argument. This is where a TMA supporter will talk about how their club does use aliveness in their training. This is ment to validate the entire art and invalidate the hundreds of other people from their art arguing against using aliveness. Again, this is something you do not see in sport training. Sports training is not stuck to any one method of belief system. Once evidence is presented in a way that makes it clear something is better, people will adapt to use that new thing. Essentially all sport schools train just about the same way. With a few on the fringes pushing the envelope with new ideas, and a few on the backend determines to not give up the old ways.

So if the exceptions in sport arts do not invalidate them, then the exceptions in TMA arts will not validate them. This is not a debate about aliveness in clubs, this is a debate about aliveness in aikido. If the majority of aikido clubs do not train with aliveness, we can assume there is no aliveness in aikido. Even if your club does break the mold. It is great that you are training in a way I believe to vastly improve functional skill, but it does not validate your art, simply your club. Likewise you might somehow find a MMA club doing only static dead drills. They are an exception, and the face of MMA is aliveness, therefor we must look to that as the rule for employing training methods for MMA. Unless that kata only school had a competition record that put Team Quest to shame.

So to answer the questions.

Quote:

Much has been made of "aliveness" training as the reason for the lack of realism in Aikido. Well I ask you...Whose fault is that?

The Shihans, the sensei's, every teacher who decides not to pass this down and convince their students it is not needed.

Quote:

If you feel you suck at Aikido because of the way you're being trained...What are you going to do about it???

I went out and found bjj, judo, and a venue to let me test my aikdio skill as well as develop new skills. I found that I SUCK at aikido. After basically removing all kata from my training, I suddenly noticed an increase in skill rapidly, and now today I am able to perform some aikido techniques, despite only training it randomly when I feel like a change of pace. I can only attribute my progress to my aliveness training in bjj and judo and my desire to attempt to replicate what I've watched people do in aikido. After getting royally screwed up trying to do that stuff, I have now reached a point where I can do it to noobs.

It is going to be impossible to change the way aikido is ran today. What we can do is change how it is ran tomarrow. Nothing political about it, just simply encouraging people to go out and try new things, and if they like them, teach them to the next generation.

No, I don't agree that my empirical evidence is limited. I've trained in Aikido for ten years now. I spent a year as an uchi deshi to a Yoshinkan 6th dan. I trained all the time. I've trained at dozens of Aikido dojos. Didn't make a bit of difference when I walked into a BJJ gym for the first time. I've trained in BJJ/MMA for 3 years now and have progressed enourmously. I've been to lots of BJJ gyms now as well. The conclusion that any person that is willing to be honest with themselves is that the whole SPORT/SELF DEFENSE arguement is a load of crap. Any MMA guy will function well in either environment. Aikido practioners and many TMAers will function well in only one.

I for one hadn't realized you had this much experience with both aikido and MMA. My first reaction is: wow. That'd be rough -- going in with years and years of aikido experience, and not being able to apply any of it with MMA types. Or were you able to use certain techniques and principles? Are you still doing aikido? If so, what's your attitude towards it?

MMA should have an indirect impact on the future of aikido. Aikido people should ask themselves, "Why is aikido under-represented in the sport-fight arena?" I feel that aikido may improve with greater pressure to teach technique that may be applied within a competitive atmosphere. I do not think that aikido should allow MMA to directly impact its future. Aikido is a budo, and its philosphy and infrastructure is not designed to accomodate sport.

I am confused by those individuals who say, "I like MMA. You should change aikido to be MMA." Aikido is well-established as a martial art. Mixed martial arts is well-established as a collection of techniques from various other martial arts. No, aikido should not become MMA.

MMA should have an indirect impact on the future of aikido. Aikido people should ask themselves, "Why is aikido under-represented in the sport-fight arena?" I feel that aikido may improve with greater pressure to teach technique that may be applied within a competitive atmosphere. I do not think that aikido should allow MMA to directly impact its future. Aikido is a budo, and its philosphy and infrastructure is not designed to accomodate sport.

I am confused by those individuals who say, "I like MMA. You should change aikido to be MMA." Aikido is well-established as a martial art. Mixed martial arts is well-established as a collection of techniques from various other martial arts. No, aikido should not become MMA.

I agree aikido should not become mma. What makes MMA successful is the training methods it employs. It gets them from the arts it mixes. The training methods of boxing, bjj, MT, judo, etc are all similar, all of these arts are successful. I would think you would have to be a fool to discount this training method without exploring it.

Good discussion, not much really to add. My experiences have pretty much parallelled Don's.

I think Jason Delucia is a pretty successful and accomplished MMA guy. He has a 30-20-1 fight record. Fought Bas Rutten about three times, lasted over 8 minutes in one fight. Many of his fights are in excess of 15:00! quite an impressive record. I don't think anyone here has the ability to judge him as "not impressive" or "unsuccessful", of course success is realitive.

I do agree that he did not bill himself as an aikidoka as a MMA guy, but what difference does it make. It appears now that he is adequately demonstrating aiki principles, so that can only be a plus for aikido folks trying to understand deeper many of the applications.

I'd train with him any day of the week.

Self Defense. Any empty handed art is a poor an inefficient delivery system if you are really concerned with Self Defense. Many more efficient means of protection and mitigation are available out there.

Again, I always go back to the statement, "train with an end in mind, and do those things that best achieve that end state." ...it may or may not involve aikido, BJJ, Judo, MMA or whatever...why waste time and money on something that is not efficient.

I agree with the Don on Combat Sports in his definition. Heck I am in the army...we do BJJ, we do, Paintball (so to speak), and all that stuff he mentions....for training. We do them because they can approximate reality.

We have guys like Ken Shamrock and Matt Hughes come in to work with us these days...I can't think of any aikidoka that we have hired lately, last one I knew about was Richard Strozzi-Heckler, but that was a different issue and a different approach...not a direct combat application per se.

This does not invalidate aikido as a means of training for what it trains and why....it is good for those purposes. That also does not mean there are instructors and shihan out there that cannot teach applications for DT. that does not mean that police officers do not benefit from aikido practice, many take it and many do benefit...they also know exactly why they are studying it and the benefits of it. They also have enough training in other areas to understand how to dileneate their practice and which aspects apply to direct application.

Anyway, those are my comments based on my current experiences. Good discussion.

Well, if the intent is self-defense, then there are a number of questions to ask.

To start with, how self defense focussed do you want to be? Do you want to do a traditional art, with traditional values and sensibilities that will have some crossover value or do you want to primarily focus on self defense (SD) skills across a wide variety of armed and unarmed applications?

In many cases, emphasis on traditionalism or combat sport is counter-productive to a broad base in SD skills - yes, even with the so-called "battlefield traditions of armed grappling" - the main reason being time spent and efficiency of training.

I have never studied a martial art or combat sport that is a well rounded SD method of itself. The more you get into costumes and ritual (whether its a hakama or a pair of Tapout shorts...), the more you practice with the sword than the gun, the further you are drifting from practical self defense.

However, almost all MA have something to offer for SD, or inform SD. Some of them, as is, are fine for self defense against the majority of "drunk uncle" or "aggressive panhandler" encounters you may face. Its how you put it together and how you go on to train with it.

Any martial artist will gain by adopting the MMA "approach" to self defense (i.e. choosing and developing specific skills, from different base arts for different fight parameters (armed and unarmed), and then pressure testing them against progressive resistance up to and including full contact/full resistance counter-fighting).

There is no reason that an aikidoka cannot delve into BJJ or Judo or muay Thai to develop a more rounded approach to unarmed self defense, then spend some time in a modern tactical knife system to develop a base there, then concealed handgun training to develop the skills there, then awareness and threat management skills, then force on force scenario training to test their integration etc. etc.

But all that is less time that you have to spend doing aikido....

May not matter, if your goal is not "professional level" SD skills, Even doing traditional aikido will put you ahead of most people, so long as you maintain an awareness and SD-focussed sensibility. You can get the latter from books, reading the newspaper, and just paying attention to what's going on around you.

But if you intend to be well prepared, not just "familiar," with a serious assault that may go to the ground, or in dealing with firearm and knife attacks, and in realistically addressing multiple threat encounters, or in dealing with a real world assault by a trained and committed individual who may have a different skill base and greater attributes than yours, you'll need to spend a lot more time working on things far outside the realm of what is offered in the traditional dojo or combat sport gym.

No offenese to DeLucia, but he has never been a successfull fighter. All the respect in the world to him; he's probably a better athelete and fighter than I will ever be, but he isn't in the elite. Also, when he was competing regularly he never mentioned Aikido. He was always a kung fu guy. Now he claims Aikido, but it's after he finished the main part of his fighting career. Regardless, he's one guy out of thousands. Not really that great of an example.

I am curious... What is your professional record in MMA???

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No, I don't agree that my empirical evidence is limited. I've trained in Aikido for ten years now. I spent a year as an uchi deshi to a Yoshinkan 6th dan. I trained all the time. I've trained at dozens of Aikido dojos. Didn't make a bit of difference when I walked into a BJJ gym for the first time. I've trained in BJJ/MMA for 3 years now and have progressed enourmously. I've been to lots of BJJ gyms now as well. The conclusion that any person that is willing to be honest with themselves is that the whole SPORT/SELF DEFENSE arguement is a load of crap. Any MMA guy will function well in either environment. Aikido practioners and many TMAers will function well in only one.

Well I have been in Aikido for over 16 years and sparring in BJJ/MMA environments for over 10 years and so have some of my Budo peers... All I can say is that my experiance is different. But then again I live in a Mecca of Martial Arts and MMA in Southern California, and have been in one form of Budo or another for almost 40 years. I just happen to love our Aikido very much and I will bet my bottom dollar you have no idea who Shoji Nishio was, His Philosophy, or experianced any of his senior level yudansha so I'll give you a break there.

I am just a humble Aikidoka mind you... but why is it that any discussion involving MMA and Aikido always regresses into this "all bad" "all good" dichotomy? Backbelt disease perhaps which in my mind is narcissistic infatuation with technique? Who knows.

Like I inferred in my previous post... If you don't think Aikido works... It sucks... It's bad.... blah blah blah.... Quit.... Go somewhere else. I have already made my choices in life, and it's a natural part of ones Budo development to be disatisfied with what one is learning and move one to something else. If you want to try to improve Aikido through MMA then put your money where your mouth is and do it. A bunch of us Aikidoka and other Budo Teachers were at the Aikido Expo back in 2005 and good ol Stan invited one of Aikido's "doesn't work unless you use MMA" detractors to the Expo to show us his stuff. Have you been to an Aiki-Expo??? You should go...Stan invites top folks in Systema, BJJ, MMA, Judo, Karate, and several styles of Aikido to come and share what they know with each other. You know what we discovered??? We have allot more in common than we do differances. Back to Mark S and his Aikido " MMA improvements." He lasted less than 5 minutes on the mat with a senior level Yudansha who happens to post here allot on Aikiweb. Poor dear hurt his back when he was dropped like a bad habit and was heard to exclaim (I hear it on occasion myself) Hey! Thats not Aikido!?!?

My point although I agree that most folks do not know how to practice Aikido properly with aliveness that does not mean Aikido does not work. Can MMA/Boxing/BJJ help in that regard? Sure...Do you need to give up on Aikido because it doesn't "work." Nope...

To paraphrase the Founder... YOU are your SENSEI. It's up to YOU. All a teacher can do is show you what they learned so it's not the technique that fails my friend.

When Shoji Nishio once said we measure our Aikido's effectivness by how well it works against other Martial Arts otherwise it's not Budo. I knew EXACTLY what he meant, and have been driven to achieve this ideal since I heard him say it those many years ago.

It is going to be impossible to change the way aikido is ran today. What we can do is change how it is ran tomarrow. Nothing political about it, just simply encouraging people to go out and try new things, and if they like them, teach them to the next generation.

I couldn't Macgree more. Good post. Sorry for the mispelling of your name.

Well, if the intent is self-defense, then there are a number of questions to ask.

To start with, how self defense focussed do you want to be? Do you want to do a traditional art, with traditional values and sensibilities that will have some crossover value or do you want to primarily focus on self defense (SD) skills across a wide variety of armed and unarmed applications?

In many cases, emphasis on traditionalism or combat sport is counter-productive to a broad base in SD skills - yes, even with the so-called "battlefield traditions of armed grappling" - the main reason being time spent and efficiency of training.

I have never studied a martial art or combat sport that is a well rounded SD method of itself. The more you get into costumes and ritual (whether its a hakama or a pair of Tapout shorts...), the more you practice with the sword than the gun, the further you are drifting from practical self defense.

However, almost all MA have something to offer for SD, or inform SD. Some of them, as is, are fine for self defense against the majority of "drunk uncle" or "aggressive panhandler" encounters you may face. Its how you put it together and how you go on to train with it.

Any martial artist will gain by adopting the MMA "approach" to self defense (i.e. choosing and developing specific skills, from different base arts for different fight parameters (armed and unarmed), and then pressure testing them against progressive resistance up to and including full contact/full resistance counter-fighting).

There is no reason that an aikidoka cannot delve into BJJ or Judo or muay Thai to develop a more rounded approach to unarmed self defense, then spend some time in a modern tactical knife system to develop a base there, then concealed handgun training to develop the skills there, then awareness and threat management skills, then force on force scenario training to test their integration etc. etc.

But all that is less time that you have to spend doing aikido....

May not matter, if your goal is not "professional level" SD skills, Even doing traditional aikido will put you ahead of most people, so long as you maintain an awareness and SD-focussed sensibility. You can get the latter from books, reading the newspaper, and just paying attention to what's going on around you.

But if you intend to be well prepared, not just "familiar," with a serious assault that may go to the ground, or in dealing with firearm and knife attacks, and in realistically addressing multiple threat encounters, or in dealing with a real world assault by a trained and committed individual who may have a different skill base and greater attributes than yours, you'll need to spend a lot more time working on things far outside the realm of what is offered in the traditional dojo or combat sport gym.

Even the ones that claim to be "combat" or "self defense" oriented.

Outstanding post. Thanks for articulating how I feel about the subject better than I did.

In short...Back in the day... as a young Ranger... if you wern't diving on top on barbed wire...bleeding all over the place while trying do live bayonet takeaways.... or better yet.... brawling in all the local bars...you were not doing proper "Combatives." LOL

Where are you getting that I am saying this? I have said, again and again, that I talking specifically within a combat sports environment. Not once have I said Aikido is bad. I said Aikido techniques and training methodologies are "inferior and ineffective in a combat sports context." Not once have I said Aikido = bad, MMA = good.

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I am curious... What is your professional record in MMA???

I'm curious, do you always respond with ad hominem replies that aren't relevant to the conversation?

Again, I give much, much respect to DeLucia. He was fighting MMA at a time when not many knew what it was. For whatever reasons, he never rose to the top of the sport. Not that that in any way diminishes his accomplishments as an athlete or a fighter. As I said before, he is a greater athlete or fighter than I will ever be. It also doesn't change the fact that he only became involved in Aikido publicly until the very late stages of his career.

Quote:

Well I have been in Aikido for over 16 years and sparring in BJJ/MMA environments for over 10 years and so have some of my Budo peers... All I can say is that my experiance is different. But then again I live in a Mecca of Martial Arts and MMA in Southern California, and have been in one form of Budo or another for almost 40 years. I just happen to love our Aikido very much and I will bet my bottom dollar you have no idea who Shoji Nishio was, His Philosophy, or experianced any of his senior level yudansha so I'll give you a break there.

I am just a humble Aikidoka mind you... but why is it that any discussion involving MMA and Aikido always regresses into this "all bad" "all good" dichotomy? Backbelt disease perhaps which in my mind is narcissistic infatuation with technique? Who knows.

I'm not saying these things. I'm saying that Aikido, as it is practiced by the majority of its practitioners, does not lend itself well to a combat sports environment. I am saying something very specific and you are running with it as though I am making sweeping generalizations in regards to Aikido and MMA.

Quote:

Like I inferred in my previous post... If you don't think Aikido works... It sucks... It's bad.... blah blah blah.... Quit.... Go somewhere else. I have already made my choices in life, and it's a natural part of ones Budo development to be disatisfied with what one is learning and move one to something else. If you want to try to improve Aikido through MMA then put your money where your mouth is and do it. A bunch of us Aikidoka and other Budo Teachers were at the Aikido Expo back in 2005 and good ol Stan invited one of Aikido's "doesn't work unless you use MMA" detractors to the Expo to show us his stuff. Have you been to an Aiki-Expo??? You should go...Stan invites top folks in Systema, BJJ, MMA, Judo, Karate, and several styles of Aikido to come and share what they know with each other. You know what we discovered??? We have allot more in common than we do differances. Back to Mark S and his Aikido " MMA improvements." He lasted less than 5 minutes on the mat with a senior level Yudansha who happens to post here allot on Aikiweb. Poor dear hurt his back when he was dropped like a bad habit and was heard to exclaim (I hear it on occasion myself) Hey! Thats not Aikido!?!?

Never been to an Aiki-Expo, I live on the other side of the country but I am sure that it is a great experience. Who is Mark S? Am I supposed to divine what that means when it comes to his Aikido improvements? Is he a top level BJJ/Sambo/MMA fighter that I should have heard of? Because that's the comparison we should be making right? If he was on the mat with a senior level yudansha, then he should have been a national competitor of some sorts, right?

Quote:

My point although I agree that most folks do not know how to practice Aikido properly with aliveness that does not mean Aikido does not work. Can MMA/Boxing/BJJ help in that regard? Sure...Do you need to give up on Aikido because it doesn't "work." Nope...

Not once did I say that Aikido does not work as a whole. I said it is ineffective within a very defined context. Nor did I say "give up."

I really think you're misinterpreting what I am saying. I gave you my background so you would be aware that I'm not coming up with this conclusion based upon limited knowledge of Aikido or BJJ/MMA/"alive" training.

However even if I had never trained in my life, any independent observer would come to the exact same conclusion I am saying. Aikido techniques and training methodology are ineffective and inferior in a combat sports context.

All one has to do is look at the evidence. No hypotheticals, no theorizing or suppositions, no "what if..." scenarios. I'm talking empirical evidence and facts.

MMA has been around for near 15 years in the states. It has showcased some of the finest athletes and competitors in combat sports, people who would do anything to be better. All that matters to these guys in performance and winning. $100,000s of dollars are on the line here. These guys would do ANYTHING if they thought it might give them an edge in competition. If dressing in a tu-tu and parading around Times Square somehow gave them an edge in combat sports, they would be doing it. Yet like Don said above, go into any MMA gym and you will see the same thing over and over. Drills->"alive" drills->sparring/rolling. They will be doing stand-up, wrestling, and BJJ. No where do you find MMA gyms training Aikido, it just does not happen. Furthermore, looking at those 1000's of fighters in the past 15 years, I would say less than 1% would claim to be Aikidoka. None of the Champion or top ten fighters in the past ten years have been an Aikidoka. I would say that's pretty good evidence that Aikido does not work in a combat sports context.

I for one hadn't realized you had this much experience with both aikido and MMA. My first reaction is: wow. That'd be rough -- going in with years and years of aikido experience, and not being able to apply any of it with MMA types. Or were you able to use certain techniques and principles? Are you still doing aikido? If so, what's your attitude towards it?

I has been doing Aikido for 6 years when I first went to BJJ. The first 6 months of BJJ, I tapped. Then I tapped some more. Then I continued to keep tapping. It was very humbling. For all of budo's talk of controlling the ego, getting tapped out repeatedly by people who have been training 5 years less than you will certainly do a better job of it than anything I ever found in budo.

That being said, I absolutely had, and continue to possess, a greater ability to "flow" than many other pure BJJ/MMA types, when they first come to the game. BJJ is very, very aiki. It just takes awhile for people to develop that sense of movement on the ground. Like any other martial art, it comes back to timing, distance, and movement. It takes people a long time before they can become "round" on the ground. Almost every starts off as a square. I started off round and it helped me a lot. I was also generally aware of how my body, and other bodies move, combined with a general knowledge of joint locks, etc.

That being said, I got owned for a long time. Every now and then I would get a nikkajo. One time I had a perfect hiji-ate one someone, but of course I couldn't execute it on the guys, instead I used it to take his back. However, Aikido techniques just don't come up that often. Trained fighters don't over-expose themselves in competition. Therefore Aikido techniques are very, very low percentage. I mean in a BJJ/MMA context that aren't that many techniques either. Generally you see the "holy trinity:" rear naked chokes, arm bars, and triangles. Sure leglocks, head-and-arm chokes, kimuras, etc. are in there but those three make up the majority of submission victories because they are the highest percentage submissions. I read a paper a Japanese University put out a few years ago about the % of specific submission techniques used in Pride/Shooto/Heroes, and I think one more org. Anyway, the "holy trinity" was about 60% of submissions used. 60%!!! There is a reason people train these things and not sankkajo.

All that being said, I train for effectiveness in competition and fun. BJJ/MMA is competition effective and fun to me, so it's a win-win. Great stuff, I love the hell out of it. Aikido is not so competition effective but it sure is a lot of fun! Things like self-defense, "what if 3 guys with shotguns jump you..." etc. does not really concern me that much. I don't train Aikido as often any more, most of my time is devoted to BJJ/MMA. However, all this does nothing to discount the many, many things Aikido as to offer to people.

Keith you experiences with starting BJJ as an Aikidoka pretty much sum up my experiences with it. Got tapped alot, but picked it up alot quicker because of my aikido, yes it does flow very aiki, it is an advantage that I found I had over many other beginners of the same rank.

I would say less than 1% would claim to be Aikidoka. None of the Champion or top ten fighters in the past ten years have been an Aikidoka. I would say that's pretty good evidence that Aikido does not work in a combat sports context.

And all that's saying nothing for vale tudo.

Didn't mean to get you hot under the collar and you're right. Aikido is not a "combat sport" and since less than 1% claim to be Aikidoka in MMA it would statistically appear to be a fact, and reasonable to assume, That Aikido does not work in a "sport" environment. (What can I say... other than I am a stubborn Irishman. LOL )

It's back once again to the point if both the apples and oranges can help each other.

I feel they can.

Again Keith I sincerely apologize for my Verbal Ukemi, and humbly bow out of continued discussions on this matter.