No "meta" game, no cards to chase.

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As a concept, KeyForge is enthralling. The game is the latest effort from legendary Magic: The Gathering designer Richard Garfield—and the big idea here is that every sealed deck is unique. Decks are pre-constructed and can’t be altered; there’s no card chasing, and there’s certainly no over-arching “meta” game that must be respected. This is a head-to-head two-player battler like no other.

The “unique” gimmick is great. The initial card pool numbers 370, and each 37-card deck you snag off the shelf consists of a completely one-of-a-kind mixture. This is accomplished via cryptic algorithms that govern deck construction. These 37 cards become your deck, your personalized slice of KeyForge that no one can take away. The bizarre naming conventions of each set only further the mystique and foster an emotional attachment to your cards.

Keys and vaults

Yes, there is a setting for KeyForge, but it’s almost irrelevant. Your deck represents the followers and the abilities of an Archon, an all-powerful being. These Archons live and die in the artificial world of the Crucible. This maelstrom is a ravaged place where champions scavenge keys in hope of unlocking hallowed vaults. So we battle as we always do.

Two unique concepts govern play. The first is that this design bucks the standard collectible card game (CCG) trend of attacking your opponent’s life pool. You can still throw blows back and forth, but in KeyForge it’s creatures defeating creatures as a means to slow an opponent’s engine or to eke out an advantage. The way to victory lies in amassing precious Æmber.

You will excavate this resource by triggering effects and then reaping Æmber with creatures. In a clever twist, each creature can forego violence against an opponent to farm the golden fuel. This makes even the weakest of agents useful in pushing toward victory.

You must turn in six Æmber at the beginning of a turn if you want to forge a key—achieving victory if this key is your third. Garfield astutely focuses play around this simple “three key” goal, always nudging you forward and offering a clear direction. It’s also a refreshing change of pace to swap out direct violence against opponents for a race with escalating tension.

Game details

The second unique component of KeyForge is the house system. Each deck includes cards from three of the game’s seven factions. You must choose to activate one of these houses on each turn, which restricts your ability to play cards. You will run into situations where your hand is jammed with Aliens, but you really want to activate that line of Brobnar creatures you deployed earlier. This is a simple and clean decision point with nuanced strategic implications.

You may play cards from the chosen house freely from your hand and without cost. Those cards deployed to the table in previous turns may also now be activated to attack other creatures or to reap Æmber. There’s a balance to be struck between playing free-wheeling action cards and maintaining a strong table state. Each deck approaches this balance from its own angle and results in some of the game’s more subtle considerations.

The house system naturally emphasizes card draw. This is an issue in the genre as a whole—random draw having a significant impact on results—so it’s somewhat unfair to single out KeyForge. Those moments of anguish when you get the “right” or “wrong” card form some of the most satisfying sequences of play. Even at its worst, this is a much more pleasant system than attempting to top-deck “land” over multiple rounds.

The use of three houses per deck, the randomly generated deck lists, and the volatile board state all produce a style of play that is very swingy. The entire affair can end in an explosive 10 minutes—or it can lag to 35 as you grind out each chunk of Æmber. By its very nature, KeyForge is an unpredictable experience.

Some of the KeyForge tokens in the starter set.

Check out the unique card names...

The game in play on the table.

A sample of the card selection.

The full starter set next to a single deck.

Crucibles and minds

KeyForge is an extraordinarily solid game. Its buy-in is incredibly small, as you can toss ten bucks at a deck and then cobble together the necessary other components. The full “starter set” is a nice product, but its primary asset is a pile of tokens you can easily replicate from other games or with household items.

The hope here is clearly for this less expensive, less time-intensive system to gain widespread traction. It doesn’t seem ludicrous to imagine running into fellow hobbyists at a convention and having everyone pull out a deck of cards that’s uniquely theirs. If this notion is realized, then KeyForge will become a common language for the gaming community writ large. It could be to 2018 card gamers what Settlers of Catan was to 1995 board gamers.

This potential feels realistic due to the boundaries this game crosses. It should have wide appeal to those who have drifted from the CCG scene, burnt out on deck building and “keeping up.” It’s enticing to novices, since the rules are simple and cost is minor. The commitment is so small, in fact, that even those heavily invested in the competitive Magic or Netrunner scenes will likely give KeyForge a shot and play casually.

Beyond the broad appeal and interesting mechanisms, the most intriguing aspect of the game is the psychological element. That concept of a “unique and unchangeable deck” is fascinating. I quickly noticed that newcomers did not want to play with the two constructed teaching decks found in the starter set. They wanted to graduate to randomized card sets, to get a feel for what they deemed “authentic” KeyForge.

It’s also a bit limiting. Having a pre-constructed deck where you can’t tinker with card lists or alter your collection does ease play and lower barriers, but it also means you may reach a point at which you have squeezed everything possible from your deck. You can’t then break it down to its elements and reconstruct a new legal deck—though you can purchase a new deck and repeat the process all over again. While games like Magic can be exhausting and expensive to keep up with, they do at least provide continued depth as you tweak your deck endlessly.

This all becomes even more complicated when you factor in the range of deck quality. The algorithm that generates KeyForge decks is supposed to balance them all, and while balance seems relatively stable across most builds, I have noticed decks focused on Dis and Shadow houses that seem... extremely formidable. This concern may take some time to shake out, as players discover strategies and counter-strategies, but it remains a concern about the system at its outset.

Yet for all of these worries, KeyForge clearly succeeds. The strongest asset of this new product approach is actualized in community. By this I mean that it’s a release that’s as exciting to talk about as it is to play. Trying to crack the rules of the algorithm and to compare unique experiences is at the heart of this game. It lives beyond the boundaries of play, and it promises to keep KeyForge going strong for months to come.

Promoted Comments

This game is a lot of fun but article misses or skips over a lot of important aspects in "getting" KeyForge.

The first is the Chains mechanic to balance overperforming decks. Do they exist? Sure, the algorithim isn't perfect and because of the random nature, a deck with, say six rare cards, can have a big upper hand on decks without.

The next item is that the algorthim tries to limit "dead" cards; cards that have no effect. So if a card gives you a bonus when you use an artifact your deck will most likely have several artifacts. Even so, many cards have a flat generation of aember (used as the win mechanic) so there are many turns where you may not be playing a card for its effect but simply because you need/want its aember. So a card that's in your hand and not immediately useful can still be useful to play to get its aember.

I own 20 decks (been playing since Gen Con) and have played against probably another ~20 or so decks. Offhand, I can only think of 2-3 decks that were absolute trash or "unfun." Yes, some decks "feel" and seem to play better than others (vomiting out creatures for example), but even in those 2-3 underperforming decks I was still able to eek out a win or two. They were simply harder games to win. This game does reward player skill.

And that's the beauty of KeyForge: the "discovery" of your deck. You *need* to play a deck 3-5 times to get a good feel for it. A deck that was junk the first time you played it will probably start to reveal how it's supposed to operate by the 3rd game. Now, the deck may not match your playstyle, but every game you're discovering things about your deck and your opponent's deck. There's even a competitive play variant where you bring your "weakest" deck to the table and hand it over to your opponent to figure out!

What you have to remember is the long tail effect of KeyForge: no card pool to collect. No huge buy-in. You can walk away for the game for 3 months, go to a local store, and for $10 sit down, play, and be 100% competitive with every other player there. No meta to chase/stay on top of (although there is a general meta of what cards you should be on the lookout for). Games play very quick; once you've learned a deck a game is ~20 min or less. You can invest $10 in one deck a day, a week, a month, or your life...you don't have to go get other decks. But it is fun to go pickup a new deck at lunch and discover what's in it. Maybe a cool combo or a selection of rares you haven't seen before...or the unicorn, a Maverick card that is normally from another house but is in your house's deck.

It's not perfect but KeyForge isn't trying to replicate Magic or other CCGs/LCGs -- there are plenty of those games already. What it is, is a breathtaking gust of fresh air on a game you can just sit down, enjoy, and discover every time you play.

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68 Reader Comments

I’m confused. What’s stopping me from buying a bunch of random decks and then just mixing the cards together into a new deck? Deck building is part of the fun.

Doesn’t help that I wasn’t quite as enamored with Artifact as I thought I would be. I like MTG, Netrunner is fun, Artifact is meh, this just sounds weird. I have serious doubts about every deck being balanced too if they are all unique...

I’m confused. What’s stopping me from buying a bunch of random decks and then just mixing the cards together into a new deck? Deck building is part of the fun.

First off you can’t mix cards because the randomly generated name for each deck is printed on the back and bottom of every card in a deck.

As for deck a lack of deck building being a detractor, it’s surprisingly not. There’s already great deck building games on the market and the ability to jump into the scene for $10 and not have intimately know the card pool/meta in order to be competitive is refreshing.

IF the algorithm that generates them basically guarantees that the variance in power between them is small enough that skill of the player and/or luck of the draw can mitigate that.

The fact that certain decks are already suspected (if not exactly proven) to be powerful enough to negate skill/luck could derail the whole thing.

Further I would be suspicious of the ability of any machine algorithm to be able to keep up with human ingenuity in exploiting weaknesses, which in turn means meta and from there decks becoming uncompetitive (and obselete)

First off you can’t mix cards because the randomly generated name for each deck is printed on the back and bottom of every card in a deck.

That's the marketing McGuffin to get you to buy more decks.

It'll make some people do that, but I imagine it's more of a tool to make the barrier to entry much lower. Tabletop gaming is far more accessible and popular these days than when Magic was released. I think it's a good move. Most people will only buy a single deck, enthusiasts will buy a few, and some people will buy loads because they can't help themselves. In any case it levels the field a lot compared to Magic and its ilk.

I’m confused. What’s stopping me from buying a bunch of random decks and then just mixing the cards together into a new deck? Deck building is part of the fun.

First off you can’t mix cards because the randomly generated name for each deck is printed on the back and bottom of every card in a deck.

As for deck a lack of deck building being a detractor, it’s surprisingly not. There’s already great deck building games on the market and the ability to jump into the scene for $10 and not have intimately know the card pool/meta in order to be competitive is refreshing.

Ah. That’s a key detail left out of the article. Thanks. It makes a lot more sense now.

Nice quick write-up on the new FFG game in town. One thing not mentioned is they do have a 'built-in' balancing system for decks that come out higher on the power end: the chain system. Basically, you can have an opponent start with a disadvantage in hand size if their deck has proven to be pretty overpowered. They also have an online app (not sure if currently working - don't play myself, just know plenty who do) which keeps track of things. You register your deck and then that deck is yours - another layer to the game that could lead to some digital play space in the future. Will see!

I think it's also important to point out, to people that are skeptical of whether every deck will be just as powerful as another, that there are game modes in place to help deal with this.

They have implemented a system for local tournament play that essentially puts a permanent handicap on decks that just destroy repeatedly.

There are also variants that have two players swap decks after the first game and if after the second both players have won with the same deck, then they bid chains to be able to play that winning deck in the third game. So you are volunteering to handicap yourself to get to play the more powerful deck.

This game is not centered around owning a single deck and trying to win as much as possible with that one deck. It's more about knowing the game than your specific deck.

Not to mention there are also variants where players bring in decks that they think are terrible and swap to see if their opponent can beat them with this deck you picked out.

It opens up a lot more ideas than previous CCGs, doesn't require the immense time and effort of learning and keeping up with the meta, and lowers the barrier to entry financially. It's super great!

The fact that certain decks are already suspected (if not exactly proven) to be powerful enough to negate skill/luck could derail the whole thing.

Something this article missed in its outline is "chains". What chains are is counters that, when you try to draw, will reduce your compulsory (end of turn and at setup) draw by 1 card, with an additional card for every 6 chains. Each time your drawing is reduced due to chains, you lose 1 chain. Your starting chains are 0, but if a deck wins 3 times in a row, it gains 4 chains, and for every concurrent 3 wins or 3 losses, it is to gain and lose 1 chain respectively.

The limit on the chain tracker is 24, so you can be stuck with a hand of 2 cards from the start of the game, only getting up to 6 again on the 23rd turn, and it's a really effective way of trying to balance unbalanced decks, or even players who are just better at the game.

When used, chains are a badge of honour, but also prevent you from just dominating every single game.

I have read the rules and played a sample deck at a game store and have a few thoughts on problems the game will likely encounter.

Only having pre-generated and randomized decks would seem to me reduce player involvement in the game. I play MTG and a big part of the game is designing and building your own deck; it is YOUR deck. I have felt a sense of attachment to decks that I know are inferior in the meta environment, but are incredibly fun to play. They also make wins that much more enjoyable when you know your deck was an underdog. I have also entered tournaments using cookie-cutter decks found from decklists online and it is just not the same. Since I didn't make the deck, I just don't feel like the wins are really by me; I'm just racking up wins for the person who designed the deck in the first place.

Another issue I foresee is balance. Yes, an algorithm theoretically has balanced all decks into +/- some win% against each other, but CCGs are notoriously difficult to balance. MTG has this problem, Hearthstone has this problem, CCGs through the ages have had this problem. There are many combos that do not become apparent during the play testing phase, but become apparent quickly once millions of players are trying to break the game. Traditional paper CCGs try to balance this by banning or restricting cards in formats, Hearthstone has changed cards after it realizes how broken they are. A CCG with decks all made by an algorithm using play testing data is likely to include broken combos in some decks creating a huge power imbalance for tournament play.

Not necessarily the last issue, but the one I am ending with, is the inability to swap out cards in a deck. What I mean is that I have had MTG cards get damaged either from too much play or an act outside my control. If a card is damaged, I can just swap it out for an undamaged copy. Keyforge prevents this with its security measures to keep people using the pre-generated deck. So if I have a deck I get that's fun and I enjoy, I may be unable to use it because a card gets damaged that I cannot replace. (unless Fantasy Flight will do limited print replacement cards for people?) I know sleeves can help prevent this, but sleeves don't stop everything.

I have read the rules and played a sample deck at a game store and have a few thoughts on problems the game will likely encounter.

Not necessarily the last issue, but the one I am ending with, is the inability to swap out cards in a deck. What I mean is that I have had MTG cards get damaged either from too much play or an act outside my control. If a card is damaged, I can just swap it out for an undamaged copy. Keyforge prevents this with its security measures to keep people using the pre-generated deck. So if I have a deck I get that's fun and I enjoy, I may be unable to use it because a card gets damaged that I cannot replace. (unless Fantasy Flight will do limited print replacement cards for people?) I know sleeves can help prevent this, but sleeves don't stop everything.

FFG answered this during the Pax:Unplugged Panel for the game and they said currently they do not have anyway to reprint cards or decks so if you have a card damaged you are SOL. This came up because someone asked what happens if they misplace a card. You replace the deck currently. It sounds like there production pipeline has some interesting problems because of the way they are doing deck generation. There are some people on reddit who have decks that have more or less cards in each house then should be possible, or bad card prints which cause a broken deck.

Article also didn't mention that certain decks that have been generated have been banned by FFG because the name was inappropriate. FFG will at least replace those (and provide an extra deck for free) if you end up with one of the banned decks.

I really like keyforge myself. First magic esq game I have been able to get my girlfriend into and deck building died once netdecking became a thing so I'm happy to have it removed from the meta. Means I can just pick up a deck and play a 30 minute game and have fun and the decks are generally balanced (though nothing is perfect). I did end up with a four horseman deck and it seems strong but not broken strong. Beat it the other day with a different deck I have. Don't have any experience with double horseman decks or the decks that have library access and a few other cards so you can win in 1 turn if you draw the right few cards. That might need adjusting.

FFG also said they are tweaking the algorithm (again at the Pax Panel) continuously and cards released later will have different power balance or composition based on feedback and observations from the community. They didn't indicate how we would know which version of the algorithm a deck is generated with so I do wonder if v1 decks will have problems when v1.1 decks come out.

After a readthrough, I am so stoked. My fiancee and I have been chatting on this, because she and I both were heavy invested into Yugioh when we were young, and I got into Magic when I was in the military-- and the constant stomping by people more invested, the constant new gimmicks and forced-rollovers to new expansions finally hit a point where it turned me off right after I got out of tech school and I stopped spending money on T/CCGs in general for five years.

This sounds like it might get both me and my lady to pick up at least a deck or two for ourselves.

I think it's also important to point out, to people that are skeptical of whether every deck will be just as powerful as another, that there are game modes in place to help deal with this.

They have implemented a system for local tournament play that essentially puts a permanent handicap on decks that just destroy repeatedly.

There are also variants that have two players swap decks after the first game and if after the second both players have won with the same deck, then they bid chains to be able to play that winning deck in the third game. So you are volunteering to handicap yourself to get to play the more powerful deck.

This game is not centered around owning a single deck and trying to win as much as possible with that one deck. It's more about knowing the game than your specific deck.

Not to mention there are also variants where players bring in decks that they think are terrible and swap to see if their opponent can beat them with this deck you picked out.

It opens up a lot more ideas than previous CCGs, doesn't require the immense time and effort of learning and keeping up with the meta, and lowers the barrier to entry financially. It's super great!

thanks for this post - someone just being able to hoard a lucky deck seemed to me broken and doomed to an even worse version of card-chasing (except an entire deck at a time). glad to know there are game modes to cope with this.

This actually reminds me of puyo puyo tetris which is two puzzle games in one, played competitively. arguably a skilled tetris player has an advantage over an "equivalently" skilled puyo puyo player, but the tournament format I've seen at ceotaku is to enable swap mode, which is a special mode of puyo puyo tetris where both players play the same board at the same time (tetris, or puyo) and then it swaps every few seconds until someone wins on one of the board. so even if tetris has an inherent advantage over puyo, it gets muted, and players have to focus on strategically playing to their strengths. it sounds like especially the deck-swapping mode is a great way to balance out possible deck variance.

This game is a lot of fun but article misses or skips over a lot of important aspects in "getting" KeyForge.

The first is the Chains mechanic to balance overperforming decks. Do they exist? Sure, the algorithim isn't perfect and because of the random nature, a deck with, say six rare cards, can have a big upper hand on decks without.

The next item is that the algorthim tries to limit "dead" cards; cards that have no effect. So if a card gives you a bonus when you use an artifact your deck will most likely have several artifacts. Even so, many cards have a flat generation of aember (used as the win mechanic) so there are many turns where you may not be playing a card for its effect but simply because you need/want its aember. So a card that's in your hand and not immediately useful can still be useful to play to get its aember.

I own 20 decks (been playing since Gen Con) and have played against probably another ~20 or so decks. Offhand, I can only think of 2-3 decks that were absolute trash or "unfun." Yes, some decks "feel" and seem to play better than others (vomiting out creatures for example), but even in those 2-3 underperforming decks I was still able to eek out a win or two. They were simply harder games to win. This game does reward player skill.

And that's the beauty of KeyForge: the "discovery" of your deck. You *need* to play a deck 3-5 times to get a good feel for it. A deck that was junk the first time you played it will probably start to reveal how it's supposed to operate by the 3rd game. Now, the deck may not match your playstyle, but every game you're discovering things about your deck and your opponent's deck. There's even a competitive play variant where you bring your "weakest" deck to the table and hand it over to your opponent to figure out!

What you have to remember is the long tail effect of KeyForge: no card pool to collect. No huge buy-in. You can walk away for the game for 3 months, go to a local store, and for $10 sit down, play, and be 100% competitive with every other player there. No meta to chase/stay on top of (although there is a general meta of what cards you should be on the lookout for). Games play very quick; once you've learned a deck a game is ~20 min or less. You can invest $10 in one deck a day, a week, a month, or your life...you don't have to go get other decks. But it is fun to go pickup a new deck at lunch and discover what's in it. Maybe a cool combo or a selection of rares you haven't seen before...or the unicorn, a Maverick card that is normally from another house but is in your house's deck.

It's not perfect but KeyForge isn't trying to replicate Magic or other CCGs/LCGs -- there are plenty of those games already. What it is, is a breathtaking gust of fresh air on a game you can just sit down, enjoy, and discover every time you play.

I have read the rules and played a sample deck at a game store and have a few thoughts on problems the game will likely encounter.

Not necessarily the last issue, but the one I am ending with, is the inability to swap out cards in a deck. What I mean is that I have had MTG cards get damaged either from too much play or an act outside my control. If a card is damaged, I can just swap it out for an undamaged copy. Keyforge prevents this with its security measures to keep people using the pre-generated deck. So if I have a deck I get that's fun and I enjoy, I may be unable to use it because a card gets damaged that I cannot replace. (unless Fantasy Flight will do limited print replacement cards for people?) I know sleeves can help prevent this, but sleeves don't stop everything.

FFG answered this during the Pax:Unplugged Panel for the game and they said currently they do not have anyway to reprint cards or decks so if you have a card damaged you are SOL. This came up because someone asked what happens if they misplace a card. You replace the deck currently. It sounds like there production pipeline has some interesting problems because of the way they are doing deck generation. There are some people on reddit who have decks that have more or less cards in each house then should be possible, or bad card prints which cause a broken deck.

Article also didn't mention that certain decks that have been generated have been banned by FFG because the name was inappropriate. FFG will at least replace those (and provide an extra deck for free) if you end up with one of the banned decks.

I really like keyforge myself. First magic esq game I have been able to get my girlfriend into and deck building died once netdecking became a thing so I'm happy to have it removed from the meta. Means I can just pick up a deck and play a 30 minute game and have fun and the decks are generally balanced (though nothing is perfect). I did end up with a four horseman deck and it seems strong but not broken strong. Beat it the other day with a different deck I have. Don't have any experience with double horseman decks or the decks that have library access and a few other cards so you can win in 1 turn if you draw the right few cards. That might need adjusting.

FFG also said they are tweaking the algorithm (again at the Pax Panel) continuously and cards released later will have different power balance or composition based on feedback and observations from the community. They didn't indicate how we would know which version of the algorithm a deck is generated with so I do wonder if v1 decks will have problems when v1.1 decks come out.

I think the rise of netdecking is such an important thing here.

I am awful at deck construction. Basically in every game I play i would rather master the technical skills and ideas than do a bunch of possibly unfun research to figure out what's good. Especially in games where there are options put in that are bad, specifically so the good players can figure out that they are bad. I'm already a scientist at work, I want to read the literature and be on my way when I'm playing a game. What that means is I rely on others to figure out a meta and then I try to be as best as I can within that. Which means I just copy deck lists or builds or whatever, because the deck construction isn't fun for me. I would imagine the vast majority of people that play games like Magic netdeck as it is. So are they really constructing their decks?

This game completely removes that so I just have to worry about mastering the tools available to me. I don't have the disposable income to go chasing decks on eBay to be the best. I can just buy a new deck for $10, learn to play it, and have fun. No following a meta super closely or anything.

This being taken out will likely turn some people away, but I think it opens the game up to far more people, too.

I’m confused. What’s stopping me from buying a bunch of random decks and then just mixing the cards together into a new deck? Deck building is part of the fun.

First off you can’t mix cards because the randomly generated name for each deck is printed on the back and bottom of every card in a deck.

As for deck a lack of deck building being a detractor, it’s surprisingly not. There’s already great deck building games on the market and the ability to jump into the scene for $10 and not have intimately know the card pool/meta in order to be competitive is refreshing.

What play modes did MTG start with? How many are there now? Which is the most popular now compared to when it started?Sticking to a play mode for too long can get pretty dull, just ask Hearthstone players...Let me go further back... How many poker versions are there? In fact, how many card games are there based on the 54 card set?

I have some doubts here too. Not because I think that it's a bad concept, per se, it's that this whole concept revolves around one very very dubious claim - That the developers understand exactly how powerful every card and every effect is, even when used in semi-random configuration. And let me tell you, that is a huge claim to make that no game has ever been able to live up to.

Until your games go out into the wild and players get their hands on it you just can't say you know how powerful anything really is. You can maybe tell the difference between meh and good cards, but it's impossible to know what is really busted until you get hundreds or thousands of games played with them. Even in long running games who's dev teams should no better there is a seemingly constant flurry of absolutely bonkers cards that should never have been printed that ruin the game.

And even if the great Richard Garfield PhD has gotten the power balance just so; I can't see anyone who really enjoys TCG games being keen on this in the longer term. The problem is that people who have played other games are used to playing sleek, well oiled machines as a deck; cards where every single one is extremely good if not actually broken. And playing a semi-random pile of cards is just... They aren't going to be happy about that. Even if every card is pretty good, long term card game players expect rather a lot more than that.

It seems to be a card game for people who don't like card games - A game for people who don't want to spend the time and effort (and indeed money) on building a good deck, but who also do want to spend the time and effort in playing a deck well. Which seems to be me to be a very narrow set of people.

"I saw this film (it is worth being called film BTW) but I forget the name, apple of life, turnip saves the day, questing deck vs starvation ect (anyone know it?)"

You could probably find it with a search, but as I happen to own the movie, it's The Gamers - Hands of Fate. It's very good, especially for a low-budget movie. And I never even got into collectible card games.

I assume the answer is "yes", but given the number of unique cards, I assume there will be two decks out there that only differ by one card (like, order their cards up however you want, and they are all the same, save for the last one).

How does only having one different card affect play? Have they been smart with shipping and distribution to make sure that is geographically unlikely? Do they even have to?

Or are there so many deck possibilities such that they can chose to restrict printing too-similar combinations?

I have some doubts here too. Not because I think that it's a bad concept, per se, it's that this whole concept revolves around one very very dubious claim - That the developers understand exactly how powerful every card and every effect is, even when used in semi-random configuration. And let me tell you, that is a huge claim to make that no game has ever been able to live up to.

Until your games go out into the wild and players get their hands on it you just can't say you know how powerful anything really is. You can maybe tell the difference between meh and good cards, but it's impossible to know what is really busted until you get hundreds or thousands of games played with them. Even in long running games who's dev teams should no better there is a seemingly constant flurry of absolutely bonkers cards that should never have been printed that ruin the game.

And even if the great Richard Garfield PhD has gotten the power balance just so; I can't see anyone who really enjoys TCG games being keen on this in the longer term. The problem is that people who have played other games are used to playing sleek, well oiled machines as a deck; cards where every single one is extremely good if not actually broken. And playing a semi-random pile of cards is just... They aren't going to be happy about that. Even if every card is pretty good, long term card game players expect rather a lot more than that.

It seems to be a card game for people who don't like card games - A game for people who don't want to spend the time and effort (and indeed money) on building a good deck, but who also do want to spend the time and effort in playing a deck well. Which seems to be me to be a very narrow set of people.

That tends to be the problem when you can mix and max cards or characters, or what the individual elements are. You end up with a ridiculously high amount of possible combinations that the makers will probably not run through. And then things get "worse" when new cards come out that weren't actually tested against all (new) combinations.

I would think this game staves that off by having not only a lower number of unique cards (comparatively), but by also entirely controlling deck formation.

That is, yes it is still a problem, but I think it is far less a problem than with something like Magic TC.

I have some doubts here too. Not because I think that it's a bad concept, per se, it's that this whole concept revolves around one very very dubious claim - That the developers understand exactly how powerful every card and every effect is, even when used in semi-random configuration. And let me tell you, that is a huge claim to make that no game has ever been able to live up to.

Until your games go out into the wild and players get their hands on it you just can't say you know how powerful anything really is. You can maybe tell the difference between meh and good cards, but it's impossible to know what is really busted until you get hundreds or thousands of games played with them. Even in long running games who's dev teams should no better there is a seemingly constant flurry of absolutely bonkers cards that should never have been printed that ruin the game.

And even if the great Richard Garfield PhD has gotten the power balance just so; I can't see anyone who really enjoys TCG games being keen on this in the longer term. The problem is that people who have played other games are used to playing sleek, well oiled machines as a deck; cards where every single one is extremely good if not actually broken. And playing a semi-random pile of cards is just... They aren't going to be happy about that. Even if every card is pretty good, long term card game players expect rather a lot more than that.

It seems to be a card game for people who don't like card games - A game for people who don't want to spend the time and effort (and indeed money) on building a good deck, but who also do want to spend the time and effort in playing a deck well. Which seems to be me to be a very narrow set of people.

I don't know that the developers claim to understand the game to that degree. If they did, they wouldn't have come up with the chains system.

How often have card games had to outright ban cards because the developers didn't anticipate some combination? Like you said, no developer truly understands their own game. So this one has a built in mechanic to reign in those decks. Not only that, there are variants that have both players play with both decks. So it doesn't matter.

I think trying to jam this game into the exact same CCG mold is a mistake and misses a lot of the positives. Not every CCG player likes deck construction. A lot of CCG players enjoy draft and sealed formats. Both of those are similar to the entire concept of Keyforge.

As I said in an earlier comment, this game may turn away some extremely hardcore CCG fans, but I think taking away the barrier of requiring a knowledge of the meta will help this game grow tremendously. I am exactly the type of person that you claim is extremely rare. I think a lot of people that grew up with CCGs are. I love the mechanics and feeling of a CCG, but just because I'm bad at or don't have the time for deck construction doesn't mean I don't like card games.

I assume the answer is "yes", but given the number of unique cards, I assume there will be two decks out there that only differ by one card (like, order their cards up however you want, and they are all the same, save for the last one).

How does only having one different card affect play? Have they been smart with shipping and distribution to make sure that is geographically unlikely? Do they even have to?

Or are there so many deck possibilities such that they can chose to restrict printing too-similar combinations?

How often do they plan to add new cards (and therefor new decks)?

I've read that they control the algorithm so that the likelihood of having decks within even 5 cards of each other is almost never going to happen.

There's like a quadrillion different raw possibilities, so even with a ton of extra rules added on to deck making, the possibilities are still much larger than will likely ever be printed.

"I saw this film (it is worth being called film BTW) but I forget the name, apple of life, turnip saves the day, questing deck vs starvation ect (anyone know it?)"

You could probably find it with a search, but as I happen to own the movie, it's The Gamers - Hands of Fate. It's very good, especially for a low-budget movie. And I never even got into collectible card games.

I really enjoy "Gamers: Hand of Fate". In fact, I enjoy it so much that, despite not really being a card gamer, I bought the card game of this and the expansion

(Downvoters sorry if my use of AS-level maths offended you, so I curse you with having to scrol through this! Lol)

Jesus christ, dude. You're like that kid who everyone avoids because he's obnoxious, but he thinks it's because everyone's jealous of how awesome he is.

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Evaluating the move. This is the hard bit.

Yeah, no shit. That is the only bit. That's like saying "the hard part about piloting an aircraft is flying the plane."

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Imagine chess where you're thinking what your opponent might do if you go "but they wont do that, that'd be retarded" - that could make the move a good one if it's not factored correctly. So assigning probabilities is extremely hard (and in practice not done).

I don't think you understand chess engines or how to play chess very well. And this is coming from somebody who has built engines for multiple chess variants, and one for draughts.

There is no need to assign probabilities to anything. That's not some impossible ideal that we just can't achieve, it's simply a stupid way to play. Engines and humans both play chess the same way. By evaluating sequences of moves while assuming your opponent will play perfectly, and choosing the move that leads to the most favorable game state. You know, the ubiquitous minimax algorithms. Usually negamax.

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There's no way to *force* moves (give your opponent only one option) until the end of the game, so it's not just about brute-forcing paths to the end.

Chess engines are very much a brute force search for the best moves, with very few exceptions. The search space can be reduced with techniques like alpha-beta pruning, but it's still a brute force search.

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We have to use "heuristics" - even still in Chess. Where we assign utility to different options, utility is an arbitrary number (so we can say "this <= that, this > that, ect simply, but any countable totally ordered set is isomorphic (order wise) to the integers anyway... (trivially so, and the nat numbers too)) where (usually) higher is better and negative means "good for the other guy".

That is the most bizarrely complicated way to say "pick the larger number" that I've ever seen. Good job?

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You can appeal to so called "AI" now but that requires crazy huge amounts of resources as it plays through so many billions of games it basically pattern matches what's good and what's bad. But I'll bitch about that another time.

Please don't. No offense, but I don't think you know as much as you think you do. It would appear that you have a math background, and worked on game AIs at some point in the past, and as a result have a somewhat inflated view of your knowledge on the subject.

Experience in one area of AI doesn't really teach you anything about other applications of AI. Algorithms used, acceptable performance, necessary accuracy, etc. all differ pretty radically from one application to the next. My having built engines for some board games doesn't qualify me to comment on the AI that gets used in something like a first person shooter or card game or self driving car, or even other board games. I might be able to think up an algorithm that could play the game, but it would just be conjecture by a non-expert.

Are you familiar with the four stages of competence? I would wager that, with respect to AI in general, you're squarely in stage 1. You know just enough to think you're knowledgeable, but not enough to be conscious of all that you do not yet know. This isn't an insult. I am also in stage 1, which is why I don't comment on areas I have no direct experience in.

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this is long enough and although my love of bragging to myself outweighs you lot not giving a shit, I'll contain myself - this time

You should maybe work on that. You're not going to find a crowd that likes long winded, self impressed rants of dubious accuracy. It pretty much always comes off as obnoxious and arrogant.

IF the algorithm that generates them basically guarantees that the variance in power between them is small enough that skill of the player and/or luck of the draw can mitigate that.

The fact that certain decks are already suspected (if not exactly proven) to be powerful enough to negate skill/luck could derail the whole thing.

Further I would be suspicious of the ability of any machine algorithm to be able to keep up with human ingenuity in exploiting weaknesses, which in turn means meta and from there decks becoming uncompetitive (and obselete)

Guaranteed to happen, unless they use Deep Mind or a successor to tune the algorithm. Current standard techniques won't do it.

On the other hand, it's a nice idea, if you don't mind that your deck may not be the greatest. Hopefully there's a rock-paper-scissors element that ensures any deck will be better than some fraction of decks and worse than some fraction too.

I think there's a way to modify the game to kill two birds with one stone: have a purchased "deck" come with more cards than it's legal to put into an actual deck.

So if a deck needs to be 45 cards, have a deck actually come with 60. You then construct your deck with 45 of those cards.

The point of this is two fold. First, it (further) reduces the chance of getting a truly worthless deck. It allows a deck to be (potentially) multi-dimensional, so if a particular combo of cards turned out to be stronger than the algorithm thinks, players have a way to shift their deck to compensate for that combo rather than having to buy a new one.

Second, it brings back a dimension of deck construction. It plays a bit more like Sealed Deck, where you get to make some limited decisions in how you make your deck. It's not full-fledged "you have to keep buying cards to make your deck better". It's elemental deck construction.

I think it's also important to point out, to people that are skeptical of whether every deck will be just as powerful as another, that there are game modes in place to help deal with this.

They have implemented a system for local tournament play that essentially puts a permanent handicap on decks that just destroy repeatedly.

There are also variants that have two players swap decks after the first game and if after the second both players have won with the same deck, then they bid chains to be able to play that winning deck in the third game. So you are volunteering to handicap yourself to get to play the more powerful deck.…

I think there's a way to modify the game to kill two birds with one stone: have a purchased "deck" come with more cards than it's legal to put into an actual deck.

So if a deck needs to be 45 cards, have a deck actually come with 60. You then construct your deck with 45 of those cards.

The point of this is two fold. First, it (further) reduces the chance of getting a truly worthless deck. It allows a deck to be (potentially) multi-dimensional, so if a particular combo of cards turned out to be stronger than the algorithm thinks, players have a way to shift their deck to compensate for that combo rather than having to buy a new one.

Second, it brings back a dimension of deck construction. It plays a bit more like Sealed Deck, where you get to make some limited decisions in how you make your deck. It's not full-fledged "you have to keep buying cards to make your deck better". It's elemental deck construction.

This is an interesting idea. I wonder if someone else will use that sort of idea.

I think an argument against it is the fact that at a certain point that 60 card set will just become a 45 card set. You min/max the deck and then it's basically set in stone. You'd still have some space to explore, but only 15 cards isn't a whole lot. And even if you could get 2-3 working decks out of those 60, the way this is set up that just means you could have three separate decks that share 45 cards and then those last 15 change.

One thing I wonder is - the business model sustainability. By that, I mean if I'd get into the game, say I buy 5 sets... when I'm bored of them I"ll probably be trading a few of them with other players first instead of getting new one?

But the principle of the game has me hooked, I'll probably get a few pack...even tho I don't know card players IRL!

Hopefully I can't actually get my boardgame group to play this. My attempts to get them to play NetRunner or Doomtown Reloaded have sadly failed but it seems like Keyforge will be much easier to push :-)

One thing I wonder is - the business model sustainability. By that, I mean if I'd get into the game, say I buy 5 sets... when I'm bored of them I"ll probably be trading a few of them with other players first instead of getting new one?

But the principle of the game has me hooked, I'll probably get a few pack...even tho I don't know card players IRL!

If it is successful they will introduce “gen 2” decks or “2019 decks” or something and you will have to buy those.

I would bet that instead of the normal ccg model, which is whales pay thousands for cards, most people buy almost nothing, they are hoping to have everyone buy maybe 2-3 decks a year consistently.

Not sure if it I will work out of course. (You can’t trade cards, though you could trade entire decks)