Bash in carrots - super low visual impact and extremely amusing in the response they extract from visiting yanks and euros. Somewhat disturbing safety wise given the rather large bolt spacings.

Non-stainless expansions - Probably fine safety wise, but incredibly annoying to replace 20yrs down the track. As Neil said, once the sleeve rusts through they probably need to be drilled out resulting in a double hole which can only be reused for a glue in. Surely no one thinks its a good idea to place anything other than stainless these days?

Stainless full sleeve expansions - My preferred choice in hard rock, more reliable than trubolts and easy to replace. Apparently gramps rock isn't strong enough to be sure that they'll be good long term (this obviously goes for the non-stainless ones too)

U's - Can be horribly ugly, require an extra hole. I'll take Sliamese's word that extraction and replacement at a later date can be done without damaging the rock.

Rings - Require a notch to be drilled, seriously difficult to remove and replace without damaging the rock

Tru bolts - fuching annoying devices which seem really good, but in fact have safety problems, durability problems, and are almost impossible to extract and replace. I don't like these things at all, and believe that future generations will curse the developers currently placing them.

Glue in stainless machine bolt with fixed hanger - This would be my suggestion for Serpentine. Replace the hanger equipped bash ins with hanger equipped glue ins, reuse the sweet HB stamped hangers (which are still in great nick). Doesn't require extra drilling, can be twisted out of the glue when replacement is next due.

On 22/11/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>Here are my thoughts on all the bolt options for Taipan>>Bash in carrots - super low visual impact and extremely amusing in the>response they extract from visiting yanks and euros. Somewhat disturbing>safety wise given the rather large bolt spacings.>>Non-stainless expansions - Probably fine safety wise, but incredibly annoying>to replace 20yrs down the track. As Neil said, once the sleeve rusts through>they probably need to be drilled out resulting in a double hole which can>only be reused for a glue in. Surely no one thinks its a good idea to place>anything other than stainless these days?>>Stainless full sleeve expansions - My preferred choice in hard rock, more>reliable than trubolts and easy to replace. Apparently gramps rock isn't>strong enough to be sure that they'll be good long term (this obviously>goes for the non-stainless ones too)>>U's - Can be horribly ugly, require an extra hole. I'll take Sliamese's>word that extraction and replacement at a later date can be done without>damaging the rock.>>Rings - Require a notch to be drilled, seriously difficult to remove and>replace without damaging the rock>>Tru bolts - fuching annoying devices which seem really good, but in fact>have safety problems, durability problems, and are almost impossible to>extract and replace. I don't like these things at all, and believe that>future generations will curse the developers currently placing them.>>Glue in stainless machine bolt with fixed hanger - This would be my suggestion>for Serpentine. Replace the hanger equipped bash ins with hanger equipped>glue ins, reuse the sweet HB stamped hangers (which are still in great>nick). Doesn't require extra drilling, can be twisted out of the glue when>replacement is next due.
Glue-in stainless will need additional drilling as the original hole won't even be 10mm and I think it will need to be 12 mm to allow for the glue won't it?

I'd go for M10 (12mm) flush-head dyna-bolts. I've got a few of those plus some 12mm Fixe hangers in my garage if you want to come and get them for Serpentine. I'll even spray-paint the hangers and heads to camouflage them.

Why not use one of Jim Titt'sbolts, approved to EN959 and no notching is required due to the keying of the glue. Maybe choose one of his 10 or 12mm solid leg bolts and high quality epoxy, I very much doubt it will need changing for the rest of our lives. Even if it does require replacing the lack of notching allows the bolt to be cut off and the shaft core drilled out.

Anything with a hanger is junk if its going to be repeatedly fallen on. I seen so many loose expansion/trubolts throughout the USA it was a joke.

Surely what was good for the 70's and 80's is no longer the case . In todays world you can no longer have an accident at work , but instead you weren't properly trained to do whatever task it was you had the accident . If a carrot is placed and used by the FA then that is fine but if written up and encouraging other to repeat then the safety of the placement must fall back on the person placing the carrot . Presumablly this was placed under the "best practice at the time". To ask the FA to warrant the reliability of the carrot for the future is questionable .
If the failed carrot of this post had resulted in a climber decking, smashing his spine and incurring brain damage ,I believe that certain law firms would relish the chance to sue anybody and the net would be wide ,from FA ,Parks, guide book editors ,climber who recently climbed but didnt fix the problem . Discussions on this forum re safety would be pored over , and I would hate to be HB when it is stated often that he says "no need to replace them they are fine " Has he checked all these carrots and how long will he be capable checking them .

On 22/11/2013 argos44 wrote:>Maybe choose one of his 10 or 12mm solid leg bolts>and high quality epoxy, I very much doubt it will need changing for the>rest of our lives. Even if it does require replacing the lack of notching>allows the bolt to be cut off and the shaft core drilled out.

I don't really like this argument, have never seen one of those bolts, and the description of how the bolt has to be removed sounds like a giant pain in the arse. Any bolts placed on classic routes should be easily replaceable without damaging the rock. Think long term

>>Anything with a hanger is junk if its going to be repeatedly fallen on.>I seen so many loose expansion/trubolts throughout the USA it was a joke.

A stainless machine bolt glued through a hanger is different, can't loosen like expansion bolts.

On 23/11/2013 mikllaw wrote:>these are identical to the bobby pins used at the freezer and Bow Wall.>Not great in soft rock (too flexible) but fine in good rock

We donīt see any problems with the 8mm rod bolts in soft sandstone BUT normally recommend customers go for a 10mm or 12mm single shaft bolt anyway if itīs that soft and gets fallen on a lot, they thinner bolts donīt fail but the rock cracks away below them which looks a bit worrying..
There is no ideal solution for sandstone, mechanical bolts always seem to give problems in the end (weīve installed 16mm ones and even they still move a trace which means they will probably come loose sometime). Glue-ins are the way to go but arenīt easy to change (though considering the effort involved in bolting a route first time itīs hard to see why replacement should be particularly easy!). Glued-in machine bolts with hangers are basically rubbish long term as the hangers come loose.
One solution is to use glued inserts and then bolt on hangers, we did this at a sandstone quarry with some custom stainless inserts glued in to spread the load (16mm hole and 120mm deep) but itīs still more work and cost than actually replacing a glue-in every now and then.

They are annoying to clip if at your limit of reach! Also they have a habit of rotating in strange directions on overhung routes with potential that cross load biners. I climbed at Dam Cliffs and Heathcliff yesterday in the Bluies where there are heaps of them. One problem is that because the hanger is already loose its really hard to quickly check if the bolt is loose.

A lot of this discussion seems to be centered around placing bolts that are easy to replace. Can I counter that argument with...

a) Why preference one persons few hours of work in 50 years time (the rebolter) over the thousands of climbers who will be using the bolts day in day out in the meantime? A ringbolt doesn't spin, allows direct threading without leaving bail biners (these are left all over hard routes with FHs and make clipping a new quickdraw a pain in the butt - especially if the hanger also spins!). If it's well recessed and glue is carefully managed it will be less visible than a FH.

All bolts can be replaced with the right tools, technique and time. If you place something that last 50+ years this replacement may never need to be done again. Those painful few hours of work by one person in 50 years really is a very small price to pay for the enjoyment of climbers on the route during that time.

On 24/11/2013 superstu wrote:>On 22/11/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>>Perhaps the desire to grid bolt, hammer, chisel and clean crags these>days reflects the growing fuch-the-planet right-wing conservatism of today,>much the same way the clean climbing ideas of the 70's echoed the cultural>movements of free love, peace and respect for nature.>>Or maybe it was the lack of light weight portable power drills at the>time. >>

What a funny idea... 90% of the new routers I know are very much of the "green - leftie" political persuasion. I always thought of trad climbers as grumpy old conservatives!

On 24/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>A lot of this discussion seems to be centered around placing bolts that>are easy to replace. Can I counter that argument with...

No, it's about placing bolts which won't require smashing the rock to remove when they eventually require replacement. Do you understand that some people think those patched over scars next to every bolt are really ugly and best avoided?

On 24/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>A lot of this discussion seems to be centered around placing bolts that>are easy to replace. Can I counter that argument with...>>a) Why preference one persons few hours of work in 50 years time (the>rebolter) over the thousands of climbers who will be using the bolts day>in day out in the meantime? A ringbolt doesn't spin, allows direct threading>without leaving bail biners (these are left all over hard routes with FHs>and make clipping a new quickdraw a pain in the butt - especially if the>hanger also spins!). If it's well recessed and glue is carefully managed>it will be less visible than a FH.>>All bolts can be replaced with the right tools, technique and time. If>you place something that last 50+ years this replacement may never need>to be done again. Those painful few hours of work by one person in 50 years>really is a very small price to pay for the enjoyment of climbers on the>route during that time.

Thatīs what I was alluding to, the expectation that it should be "easy" to replace bolts (as well as cheap naturally enough!). Easy is relative and compared with the total amount of time and effort climbers will spend on a popular route before the bolt requires replacement then replacing bolts is extremely easy but the work normally falls on the few to be enjoyed by the many. I know of two bolt funds who have money waiting to be spent (and didnīt apply for grant aid this year) because they still havenīt installed last years bolts due to lack of man power and another where the cliff-top stakes have been lying there for three years waiting for some keen young climber to actually pick them up because the pensioner who organises them and has installed them for the last 30yrs canīt be assed any more.
Other sports call on more community action from the participants and sport climbing probably needs to find a way to do this in the future, both man-power and financially.

You could use stainless all-thread glued in as opposed to a machine bolt. Uses the same hole, can probably be removed in the future by filing flat edges on it and removed with a large shifter (best to do a test). Then rebore hole.

Hangers can be tightened or replaced and the glue around the bolt can be inspected.

Can be installed as one unit ( nut and hanger already attached, just tighten once glue is set). You can install them using Ramset spin capsules, maybe not on steep routes.