Lyons: If he has a concealed gun permit, a fix is needed

Published: Monday, February 4, 2013 at 6:54 p.m.

Last Modified: Monday, February 4, 2013 at 6:54 p.m.

He came to my attention when someone called me a few days ago about Fred being ordered off the property where he and others sometimes went for Alcoholics Anonymous meetings in Sarasota.

After a history of problems there stretching back about two years, Fred was described to police as yelling and scaring other members. Again.

In his 50s and sometimes listed as transient, Fred had already told police of a previous argument at another AA meeting.

By Fred's own account, it had started when he complained that the music played by the coffee maker was too loud.

I'd be careful about assuming this adamant gripe was as off the wall as it sounds except that, at my request, the Sarasota Police Department sent me records of other encounters with Fred.

One shows a dispute at a gas station, but it had few details.

Another says Fred was also given a trespass warning at a downtown church.

A church board member said Fred “caused a disturbance during the service after becoming upset over the size of the piece of communion bread that he received.”

Fred called the pastor more than 20 times, and sent messages that said “May God judge you” and “See you in God court.”

After reading several other police reports, I had little trouble crediting the non-professional judgment of the man who called me about Fred.

“It would take you about 10 seconds to realize this man is mentally ill,” the man told me.

What worried the caller, and now me, wasn't just that Fred was so repeatedly prone to be antagonistic and angry. There is something else that I hope is as at least as rare as arguments over communion bread: As police records show, Fred has let people know during at least one angry confrontation that he has a concealed firearms carry permit.

Police reports say that during an argument, he touted his access to a gun as something the other people should know about.

Thanks for that heads up, Fred. Question is, what should we do now?

In Florida's odd bureaucracy, concealed weapon permits are issued by the Agriculture Department.

The Florida Department of Law Enforcement helps with background checks, but not as much as you might think. Since the Ag department isn't a law enforcement agency, the FDLE can't share information it gets from some federal databases.

According to Fort Lauderdale's Sun Sentinel, that includes a database that lists people who have been certified as mentally unfit for gun ownership.

Of course, guys like Fred may well not be listed anyway. Most probably are not. Even someone brought in by local police for a forced psychiatric exam after behaviors more or less like Fred's wouldn't always become eligible for loss of a concealed carry permit.

A psychiatrist would have to decide he was enough of a threat to himself or others to justify a forced temporary commitment to a psychiatric facility.

And that still might not do it.

A lawyer who lists Florida gun laws as a specialty says a mentally ill person can avoid the revocation just by agreeing to treatment. Voluntarily treatment is not enough to revoke the permit, according to NRA member and attorney Jon Gutmacher of Winter Park.

I don't know Fred's history, or if, when or how he might have been treated for his problems getting along with others. But Fred, I hope you don't read this column and recognize yourself and get mad.

And if you do, I can only hope you ran short of cash and had to pawn that gun. With all due respect to Second Amendment rights, I wish lawmakers would work a way to take yours away.

<p>The man I will call Fred might be unusual, or so I hope.</p><p>But no one really seems to know.</p><p>He came to my attention when someone called me a few days ago about Fred being ordered off the property where he and others sometimes went for Alcoholics Anonymous meetings in Sarasota. </p><p>After a history of problems there stretching back about two years, Fred was described to police as yelling and scaring other members. Again.</p><p>In his 50s and sometimes listed as transient, Fred had already told police of a previous argument at another AA meeting. </p><p>By Fred's own account, it had started when he complained that the music played by the coffee maker was too loud.</p><p>I'd be careful about assuming this adamant gripe was as off the wall as it sounds except that, at my request, the Sarasota Police Department sent me records of other encounters with Fred.</p><p>One shows a dispute at a gas station, but it had few details.</p><p>Another says Fred was also given a trespass warning at a downtown church. </p><p>A church board member said Fred “caused a disturbance during the service after becoming upset over the size of the piece of communion bread that he received.” </p><p>Fred called the pastor more than 20 times, and sent messages that said “May God judge you” and “See you in God court.” </p><p>After reading several other police reports, I had little trouble crediting the non-professional judgment of the man who called me about Fred.</p><p>“It would take you about 10 seconds to realize this man is mentally ill,” the man told me.</p><p>What worried the caller, and now me, wasn't just that Fred was so repeatedly prone to be antagonistic and angry. There is something else that I hope is as at least as rare as arguments over communion bread: As police records show, Fred has let people know during at least one angry confrontation that he has a concealed firearms carry permit.</p><p>Police reports say that during an argument, he touted his access to a gun as something the other people should know about.</p><p>Thanks for that heads up, Fred. Question is, what should we do now?</p><p>In Florida's odd bureaucracy, concealed weapon permits are issued by the Agriculture Department.</p><p>The Florida Department of Law Enforcement helps with background checks, but not as much as you might think. Since the Ag department isn't a law enforcement agency, the FDLE can't share information it gets from some federal databases.</p><p>According to Fort Lauderdale's Sun Sentinel, that includes a database that lists people who have been certified as mentally unfit for gun ownership.</p><p>Of course, guys like Fred may well not be listed anyway. Most probably are not. Even someone brought in by local police for a forced psychiatric exam after behaviors more or less like Fred's wouldn't always become eligible for loss of a concealed carry permit.</p><p>A psychiatrist would have to decide he was enough of a threat to himself or others to justify a forced temporary commitment to a psychiatric facility.</p><p>And that still might not do it.</p><p>A lawyer who lists Florida gun laws as a specialty says a mentally ill person can avoid the revocation just by agreeing to treatment. Voluntarily treatment is not enough to revoke the permit, according to NRA member and attorney Jon Gutmacher of Winter Park.</p><p>I don't know Fred's history, or if, when or how he might have been treated for his problems getting along with others. But Fred, I hope you don't read this column and recognize yourself and get mad. </p><p>And if you do, I can only hope you ran short of cash and had to pawn that gun. With all due respect to Second Amendment rights, I wish lawmakers would work a way to take yours away.</p>