Dubnoman
Now I said I don't hate the man, but I won't hesitate to state the fact that he was a terrible person, but I'm a bit offended...I'm a bit misguided for being upset with a man who did so many terrible things and brought so much harm into the world (including all the victimized people who were sued after being outright, completely provoked, and including the fact that he brainwashed dozens of his family members, making them into terrible people), yet you aren't a bit misguided for making excuses for why he was so bad. I understand having some compassion for bad and terrible people. I have compassion for so many bad and terrible people. But you just made excuses for why pastor Phelps was so bad. Yeah, he lost his mother. I've gone through some hard experiences in my life. I'm not a terrible person. Lots of people go through hard experiences and don't end up being completely terrible. Let us not make excuses for this pastor. Yes, if you break down every little event in his life, you can see how A lead to B lead to C lead to D and so forth. But we can't make excuses for every terrible person. There are no good excuses for why this man was as bad as he was

Never really did I say there were any good excuses as to why he became the person that he did; just that it's how we all function. We become who we are, or will be, or were - because of the actions of the past. It only means that we all should be forgiven for the things we have done, are doing, or will do. Accept each person for who they are, what they are, and why they are. As I said, people do have their own choices and they take them down different paths; in the end, the path is of your own doing. Never did I excuse his actions, just forgave them. Why should anything be excused just because they're forgiven? Why should someone not be forgiven for things they've done? I'm not speaking just of Phelps, but of all humanity. There wasn't any "high horse" mentality, I do not believe that I am better than anybody else. I simply asked why must we rebuttal hatred with more hatred. It doesn't make sense to me, at all.

Dubnoman
It is acceptable to be upset with the unjust people of the world and those who prey on and victimize others and those who deliberately cause suffering and distress.

We create our own world, our own reality. The society we live in is the one we created ourselves. This is why I asked why the hatred had to be countered with more hatred - it's a circular concept. If you hate those who hate .. are you not simply feeding more hate into our collective existence? There's enough hatred and despair and sadness in this world, a lot of it because we simply haven't the ability to break free of the fear. What fear, you ask? All sorts. Everything from fear of ourselves to fear of reject to fear of the tomorrow that isn't here yet. My point is, we're all wonderful, amazing, remarkable creatures (not just humans, but life in general - all living beings). Humans simply have a bit more social pressures that causes self-doubt and distrust of our ability to co-exist.

Acceptable? Sort of, I'd say. In a way, you're right. That's one way of looking at it and I've not really shunned or spoken against that. It's more so the idea that if you want to "cure" the world of such people - you must not become one yourself. Forgiving the guy for what he's done and hope he passed away peacefully and that his spirit/energy/memory (whatever your belief/lack of belief may be) is at peace isn't something that's an awful idea either. I make no excuses for Phelps, just that we're all victims of our environment. That isn't to say that we all travel down the worst possible paths because they're in front of us. Those are our choices when we reach them to make. The result is what we have to deal with: both on the individual level and as a species. In the long term, our actions effect everyone else. In the short term, we choice to cure or poison ourselves. That's just how I look at it. Not in the "my perspective is better" way, more in the "I hope I can make you at least acknowledge my view - even if you chose not to accept it." way.

Look. The dude was terrible. He was an absolute son of a bitch, to put it mildly. Few will miss him. But his horrible actions do not give anyone license to do equally terrible things to him and his family. Why would you stoop to his level? Why can't you be the better person? Why can't we just acknowledge he was a scum of the earth, accept his passing graciously (never rejoice in the death of anyone), and move on with our lives?

People confuse me.

Yes, I've seen in some communities that there's the desire to protest at his funeral with picket signs stating that his god hates him. It's the same mentality that he would have approved of, even in his afterlife. This is exactly why I felt like I had to post what I have (including my most recent response). Regardless of a person's view on his actions, repeating them or even repeating the emotions behind them only causes it to fuel again. Hate breeds and thrives on ......you guessed it... more hate. A life is a life. I'm not sure if he understood that, as he did spend a fair amount of time condemning those who were no longer living. But it's a sad, sad day when any being dies. From a human to the nearest rose bush, it's sad (to me). All that time and effort that it took to become that being and something/one else feels compelled to rip it away from them.

Yes, I've seen in some communities that there's the desire to protest at his funeral with picket signs stating that his god hates him. It's the same mentality that he would have approved of, even in his afterlife. This is exactly why I felt like I had to post what I have (including my most recent response). Regardless of a person's view on his actions, repeating them or even repeating the emotions behind them only causes it to fuel again. Hate breeds and thrives on ......you guessed it... more hate. A life is a life. I'm not sure if he understood that, as he did spend a fair amount of time condemning those who were no longer living. But it's a sad, sad day when any being dies. From a human to the nearest rose bush, it's sad (to me). All that time and effort that it took to become that being and something/one else feels compelled to rip it away from them.

I completely agree with everything you've posted. People are quick to hate anything that they don't understand. It takes a lot of effort to turn that hatred (and fear) into acceptance and attempt to understand, but it has to be done. Otherwise, we're all going to hell in a handbasket.

It also really irks me when people say they're "happy" a person has died. That is nothing to be happy about. We're all human beings, here. At least have a little bit of decency.

If I had the funds, I would personally go to his funeral and protest. Just like how WBT protests the funerals of soldiers who died protecting their rights of free speech. I hope he reaps what he sows when he burns in the lowest circle of hell

If I had the funds, I would personally go to his funeral and protest. Just like how WBT protests the funerals of soldiers who died protecting their rights of free speech. I hope he reaps what he sows when he burns in the lowest circle of hell

Yeah, what he did was wrong so let's retaliate by doing the exact same thing! We'll show that dead guy who's boss by picketing his funeral alright!

I read in an article that pastor Phelps won't have a funeral. They might bury him in secret, or cremate him. Anyway, it'll be good that people won't protest his funeral. I mean, if that happened, it wouldn't be right. People shouldn't do it. But if the westboro people got a taste of their own medicine, so be it. But that isn't really why it shouldn't happen. The worst thing about that, if his funeral was picketed, would be that the westboro members would feel like what they do is fully justified. Being that whenever anyone gives them an inch, they take a mile, they would totally take that and, in an exploitative fashion, milk it for all it's worth.

ninjitsuko, you seem like a real nice and compassionate person. I had a bit of a harsh element in my post. I think I've just been irked by a lot of people I've seen (at a thread on neogaf about this topic) where people were riding high horses. Your post and follow up post say a lot of good things. Ultimately, you have good views about the world. It is just that, it is very idealistic. I was very idealistic several years ago. Idealistic thinking can be key to the world making a big leap forward in progression. Thing is, I don't know how realistic it is, how feasible it is, with the world as it is currently. The world is too broken and imperfect for idealism to save the world. However, our generation and this younger generation *may* be able to make a breakthrough, as a lot of younger folks these days are kind, compassionate, tolerant, and for many of them, sweet and sensitive. However, that is what you are seeing a lot in western cultures. There is no guarantee this won't backfire on us big time, as those known as our enemies; their newer generations might end up being hard and calloused while we just become soft pushovers...really, the world is, well, more than just negative things, but it is also broken, imperfect, and full of hardened people and it might take a long time before humanity makes a real breakthrough, one where the world ends up a much better place, full of much more love, kindness, compassion, and forgiveness than we see in it now.

Dubnomanwrote:
ninjitsuko, you seem like a real nice and compassionate person. I had a bit of a harsh element in my post. I think I've just been irked by a lot of people I've seen (at a thread on neogaf about this topic) where people were riding high horses. Your post and follow up post say a lot of good things. Ultimately, you have good views about the world. It is just that, it is very idealistic. I was very idealistic several years ago. Idealistic thinking can be key to the world making a big leap forward in progression. Thing is, I don't know how realistic it is, how feasible it is, with the world as it is currently. The world is too broken and imperfect for idealism to save the world. However, our generation and this younger generation *may* be able to make a breakthrough, as a lot of younger folks these days are kind, compassionate, tolerant, and for many of them, sweet and sensitive. However, that is what you are seeing a lot in western cultures. There is no guarantee this won't backfire on us big time, as those known as our enemies; their newer generations might end up being hard and calloused while we just become soft pushovers...really, the world is, well, more than just negative things, but it is also broken, imperfect, and full of hardened people and it might take a long time before humanity makes a real breakthrough, one where the world ends up a much better place, full of much more love, kindness, compassion, and forgiveness than we see in it now.

I apologise if I came off the wrong way in my post. I can understand that my initial post could come off as such if you've become a bit calloused by the negativity of sites like Reddit and NeoGAF (both, I casually sneak around/ninja on). The problem isn't idealism; as you said, that's an element that strives for a huge leap in social progression. It takes time, is all. The fear of "enemies" exploiting this newfound compassion isn't something one should worry much about. At the end of the day, we either have to understand that control and power are just illusions that keep us chained up - or, we'll continue to think about the world within the constraints that we've placed around ourselves. Enemies or not, they share the same world and same illusions as the Western civilization.

Dubnomanwrote:
ninjitsuko, you seem like a real nice and compassionate person. I had a bit of a harsh element in my post. I think I've just been irked by a lot of people I've seen (at a thread on neogaf about this topic) where people were riding high horses. Your post and follow up post say a lot of good things. Ultimately, you have good views about the world. It is just that, it is very idealistic. I was very idealistic several years ago. Idealistic thinking can be key to the world making a big leap forward in progression. Thing is, I don't know how realistic it is, how feasible it is, with the world as it is currently. The world is too broken and imperfect for idealism to save the world. However, our generation and this younger generation *may* be able to make a breakthrough, as a lot of younger folks these days are kind, compassionate, tolerant, and for many of them, sweet and sensitive. However, that is what you are seeing a lot in western cultures. There is no guarantee this won't backfire on us big time, as those known as our enemies; their newer generations might end up being hard and calloused while we just become soft pushovers...really, the world is, well, more than just negative things, but it is also broken, imperfect, and full of hardened people and it might take a long time before humanity makes a real breakthrough, one where the world ends up a much better place, full of much more love, kindness, compassion, and forgiveness than we see in it now.

I apologise if I came off the wrong way in my post. I can understand that my initial post could come off as such if you've become a bit calloused by the negativity of sites like Reddit and NeoGAF (both, I casually sneak around/ninja on). The problem isn't idealism; as you said, that's an element that strives for a huge leap in social progression. It takes time, is all. The fear of "enemies" exploiting this newfound compassion isn't something one should worry much about. At the end of the day, we either have to understand that control and power are just illusions that keep us chained up - or, we'll continue to think about the world within the constraints that we've placed around ourselves. Enemies or not, they share the same world and same illusions as the Western civilization.

We all know that Fred Phelps is disliked and rightly so, but I think he served one purpose worth mentioning, definitely unintended.

That is, he provided a caricature of what it means to be a bigot. He was the unashamed, blunt version of what discrimination and bigotry are. I think a lot of folks who may harbor prejudice in their hearts looked at Fred and his church of hate, and put down their swords in disgust. Nobody wants to be like that or be perceived as being like that.

I think he drove a lot of folks towards opening their minds to be accepting of people who are different from themselves.

Westboro isn't successful in converting people, but rather driving people towards the goodness in their hearts out of repulsion at looking at the darkness.

Dubnomanwrote:
You don't have to apologize. I apologize, for I was responding with some disgruntled and negative attitudes.

Glad we mutually apologize and understand! Communication is difficult in text; even though I feel more comfortable with it, than in spoken word (yeah, I know). Just keep your head held up and try to ignore the influences of negativity when you're exposed to it. People will go too extreme and try to offend both negative and (seemingly) positive comments. Glad we've had a "chat" of sorts via messages back and forth. Take care, Dubnoman.

I can't seem to understand the amount of hatred for this guy. I've seen in some circles that they're planning on protesting at his funeral just to spite him and his actions while alive. If you look at his youth, you'll see the progression of his choices and actions. People end up taking more negative paths when obstructive events have happened in their lives. Some go down routes that are far more sinister and hate-filled than what Fred Phelps decided upon doing. Continuing to use hatred as one's rebuttal against his own is rather counter-productive.Of course, I feel that those who say how much of a bigot and how the greatest contribution of his life was his death are a bit misguided themselves. Even his negativity was enough to cause some to fight for their rights as human beings; which is always a start.

Be it their sexuality, it was/is a start. What Phelps did was a bit misguided on a larger scale; yet, at least he did some good indirectly (and somewhat, directly). We're all creations of our environments - he lost his mother at a young age, to which I'm sure he was unable to understand (coming from having lost my own when I was twelve, I somewhat relate to that). The path he chose was one that allowed him to feed the hatred that came from such an event. You have that choice, to be consumed by the rage and confusion of your loss. It isn't the greatest choice and its side-effects varies based on the person. Regardless, in this case, he ended up becoming the homophobic beast that he was. Those would would argue that, as he was up in age, that he should have seen the error of his ways would not quite understand how large of ripples decisions can be in your life/time-stream. One ripple can magnify another, and another, on and on.. which just causes people like Phelps to exist. Too many ripples cause the entire foundation to become unstable. You can see that with the fact that he was estranged from so many of his family members and close friends (throughout his life).

We all need to learn to not reciprocate hatred with more hatred and bias against them. It doesn't really work like that. Life is about forgiveness; not about blame. I forgive him for his actions and only hope that his death was a peaceful one.

I believe people should be judged on their actions. This was a hateful person, and he harmed many people indirectly. Life does not have to be about forgiveness. That is a cheap line usually spouted by idealists who have no real reason to hold a grudge. Sometimes people do NOT deserve forgiveness, particularly when they have never repented or been punished for their crimes. Some people deserve our hatred, even in death.