I’ve borrowed the title of this post from the recent annual conference of the Guild of Pastoral Psychology. It was a title that grabbed me.

I was very excited when I spotted the topic over a year ago – it brought together two of my great interests – Jung and yoga. The main speaker, Charles Zeltzer, is a Jungian analyst hailing from my home town Los Angeles, and he was due to speak on ‘Kundalini yoga, alchemical symbolism and individuation’ – again all subjects of interest for me. Also planned was a ‘social dreaming matrix’ led by Amelie Noack and as dream analysis is yet another interest of mine – well, it seemed this conference must have been made for me!

Many months passed between signing up and the actual conference – with some temptations in the middle, including an invitation to the folk festival at Tonder, Denmark which I had to turn down. So, perhaps not surprisingly, I arrived with high hopes and great expectations. What follows is not a report on the content of the conference or even the experience itself – it was highly complex and a lot of it quite abstract, and I don’t presume to have understood it all. My mind was in another state by the end and I don’t think I was alone in that. Standing outside the dining hall awaiting the last supper, I asked another attendee where he was travelling to that night and he answered Norway when in fact he meant Nottingham! Many of us felt a little like that by the end.

I just want to capture a few impressions that might trigger or spark thoughts for some of you.

The social dream matrix was fascinating. The idea is that sharing dreams and associations in a group, without going into personal interpretations, may have echoes and resonances for the group and gathering as a whole. Each morning at 7.30 we gathered and sat in a spiral and shared our dreams. I had two quite personally evocative dreams during the conference, and it seemed that the themes did bounce back and reverberate and resonate – rather like light particles in quantum physics (as I understand it as a non-scientist – another theme that came up during the conference). On the second day we found our dreams were full of blocks and obstructions – there seemed to be a block to the energy expressing itself, as if some of the chakras (as those of you who are familiar with Kundalini yoga will appreciate) were obstructed.

The message that came out for me on reflection was that perhaps we could not get to our dreams, or the meanings in them, because the conference as a whole was not yet addressing its theme captured in its name, ‘the wisdom of the body’. To paraphrase, Jung said that Westerners are too much in their heads and must rediscover their bodies, they are not sufficiently grounded. The conference felt like it needed to make a step on that journey as it was, up until the middle of the second day (excepting the belly dancing and clowning session on Saturday evening which was great fun!), very much in its head. It was Charles Zeltzer’s courageous second talk which helped us to break through to a different space.

Charles calls dreams the asanas (Sanskrit word for postures) of the psyche. For me, that was a hugely evocative phrase. Though it might have been offered as a passing or even throw-away description, in the context of his densely packed material, for me it has been one of the most resonant phrases from the weekend.

In yoga, asanas are postures to which we return time and again. Every time you revisit an asana you experience it differently, and different awareness and consciousness arises. A sequence of postures is a vinyasa. Experiencing a vinyasa is different from experiencing a single posture, as you are much more aware of the transitions and spaces in between the postures.

A dream can be a single image which lingers in the mind – for example, a padlocked gate, a car tumbling off a cliff, cupped hands holding liquid soap, a pile of beautifully textiled fabrics. Equally a dream can be a vinyasa, a sequence of images which are linked even if not always obviously or logically. Even when our dreams are filled with different images, there are themes to which we may find we return again and again, repeating the vinyasa. And of course some people have the same dreams over and over, through repetition hoping to unlock some meaning perhaps, the unconscious seeking expression.

What emerged for me from the weekend was a deepened appreciation of the need to bring the psyche and the body into a vinyasa – an interactive, interdependent (if not always logical) sequence which we might call spiritual living. It is hard to put this kind of understanding into words.

Both body and mind practices need to be there as equal partners in the development of the Self, and one is not more important than the other. The challenge of having them there as equal partners is huge. Depending on our personalities we will gravitate to one more than the other, thereby compromising the equality in the relationship. This was reinforced for me over the weekend and particularly through the impromptu yoga class I taught where I endeavoured to translate Charles’ ideas and references into a physical experience of the chakras.

There is a hierarchy in our society where for many of us, the mind is seen to be on a higher plane than the body. Certainly I was brought up in a household with this belief. For others who have learned to worship the body, the body is placed above the mind, and sometimes in a mindless way or even a bodiless way when it becomes more about image than the body itself! (I experience this regularly at my local leisure centre.) We need to learn to inhabit both our bodies and our minds, and in so doing we may approach our spirit. Our bodies hold awareness and understanding that cannot be captured mentally or intellectually but that links deeply with our emotions and our sense of identity. Learning to not always strive to put an intellectual construct around the body is a hard lesson for those of us cerebral types.

I remember when I started to practise yoga and I began to notice things about my body – for instance, that the left and right legs didn’t bear weight in the same way – I would often ask teachers ‘why?’ Some of them would visibly get quite annoyed with me, others would sidestep the question, while still others would give me a technical, anatomical answer that actually didn’t take my understanding any further other than in my head. Over time I have gradually learned that ‘why?’ is not always the supreme question I have been brought up to believe it is. Instead, the explorations that come out of ‘how about….?’ or ‘I wonder if….’ can yield far better grounding and understanding, and a sense of being able to make a next step.

The body is a door into our unconscious. The way we orient ourselves in the world – simple movements such as how we stand up from a chair or how we sit, how we walk – all of these speak about who we are. But so often we make these movements automatically. If we turn our attention to these simple movements – which for me is a core part of yoga practice – then we bring that of which we are unconscious into the light, and this in turn gives us insights into who we are and how we are in the world.

James Kirsch said ‘The goal is to make a conscious decision to live unconsciously’ – the meaning of this statement continues to perplex me despite Charles explaining that he is acknowledging the need to give the unconscious a space in life. I think the call is for us to do this not just through intellectual reflection but also through physical exploration. The two must go hand in hand.

34 Responses to The wisdom of the body

Hi Karin, thought I’d put my 2 cents in here. James Kirsch passes on a profound insight. Making room for the unconscious in dreams, writing, art, and in daily life, synchronicity, day dreams, symbols, et. al., allows you to come upon what the Soul/Self wants you to become aware of. Then you can use Active Imagination, which I find to be different from “intellectual reflection”. Meaning that AI is energized from a different place. Certainly your mind is active, but only as a vehicle for the soul’s energy that has awakened to give you a gift. The goal is to make a conscious decision about opening to this other reality. It helps tremendously to have a guide. That is why I recommend Jungian Analysis so enthusiastically. As many days a week as you can afford! Learning Yoga opens spiritual pathways also and gives you the Breath, which puts one into a meditative/open state. They’re a wonderful combo.

Hi Sophia, thanks for your insightful comment about AI which clarifies another step in the process. I completely agree with your statement that ‘the goal is to make a conscious decision about opening to this other reality’. And now you have helped me understand more what James Kirsch means. Thanks again.

I’ve never really looked at what Jungian is, You quote him as saying “Westerners are too much in their heads and must rediscover their bodies, they are not sufficiently grounded“. I can agree with that.

Then I also agree with what you wrote here: “We need to learn to inhabit both our bodies and our minds, and in so doing we may approach our spirit.” It’s about finding that balance is it not? Most of us folk should not inhabit just one or the other to an extreme although some may need to.

Hi Tom, thanks for your comment and for coming on. I think you would find Jung’s work very stimulating – maybe not all 26 volumes! – but a few selected works and some of the ideas and concepts. It can sit interestingly with a study of Buddhism. I completely agree with your comments about balance. Look forward to a conversation sometime.

Hi, Interesting concepts Karin, especially to those who are uninitiated into Yoga.

To your observation of Jungs comment on the difference between the Eastern and the Western psyche, I may also like to add another difference, one that sparked an argument recently on LI.

The Western psyche is essentially extroverted as compared to the introversion of the Eastern psyche. And yoga, and Kundalini etc, are practiced in an introspective space in the East. Hence they are experienced differently there. As I recall from years ago, Ken Wilbur has written a bit on this in his book called Transformations of Consciousness.

On Linked In I had been explaining to someone how in that tradition of introversion, dreams and personal experiences of Kundalini are experienced within, and not discussed openly. The sharing of these experiences constitutes what can best be described as a containing leak. As you can see, the guru-student tradition maintains the solitude and confidentiality of these practices. Such leak is also considered detrimental for psychodynamic therapeutic relationship where discussing the session details outside of the session is considered harmful. Also, leakage may create longing and desire in others who now want to have such experiences, dreams etc. Their own journeys are affected by such disclosures. It is for this reason that such spiritual achievements are rarely discussed openly in the East. This tradition is followed by many Jungian therapists as well who will not listen to or discuss other people’s dreams, except your own, or their own because such sharing is said to harm the other.

Kundalini cases are extremely common in the Indian subcontinent, and among Indians too, but you will hardly find anyone willing to discuss it openly. Like Gandhi, Or Goenka, it is the outcome, the wisdom and the actions, that are open to observation. Not the source. This strengthens the practice because energies are expounded not on discussing experiences of Kundalini, but what can be achieved thru it – which is really the goal.

Just a different perspective. Of course no one what the truth really is. Best we can do is educate ourselves on various aspects, and then decide which one works for us.

Hello Madhu, thanks for your comments. I agree about the extraversion of the Western psyche and Introversion of the psyche and also dimly remember reading something by Ken Wilbur on this.

I’m not sure if it is the conversation you and I had that you are alluding to here as we have touched on this before, and the potential dangers or damage of leakage to both/all parties. While I am very familiar with the objective of maintaining the solitude and confidentiality of the experience and process in a therapeutic context, I had not thought before our previous exchange about the other reasons you highlight: the potential of creating longing and desire in others – or even envy though you don’t say that. This has given me a deeper insight into the Eastern psyche, so thank you, and lovely to see you here.

Glad to hear it was someone else – I didn’t think our exchange was heated! In fact, it’s been and continues to be very enlightening and a number of different things from different sources are falling into place. Thanks.

Madhu, Thanks for your great comments about not allowing the container to develop leaks. This is a standard for Jungian Analysis. It can be very damaging to the analysand to have the container cracked by the analyst. A patient can, on some level know when the container has been broken. The goal is to be able to hold the energy, symbolism, etc. Because the analyst Can do it, he/she must continue to hold it throughout the analysis. The analysand hopefully can also learn to hold the container. This would be one of the great outcomes of Jung’s work. Containment is necessary for building a Self. As to Kundalini energy, I agree must be contained. One usually can only speak of it with one’s Guru or teacher, as I understand it, it is considered a sacred energy. Not everyone can contain these strong energies. That is one of the reasons, perhaps, that Jungian work is often work for the “second-half of life” when one is more individuated. It’s also important to remember that in US, there was no tradition of a common spirituality for all/most. India has had centuries of developing a very rich and varied spirituality, as has Buddhism, Taoism, and others as well.

Yes, Kundalini is like a mother to us Indians, and a blatant commercialization of such a sacred expression appears very distasteful. On entirely another level, it affects the containment, as wisdom associated with Kundalini is not used constructively, but for commercial success. Hence my argument. Anyways.

Karin – Mind and Body, Spirit and Soul, Shiva and Shakti. I will keep repeating it till it becomes a part of your psyche, like it is for mine. LOL! I have had Arnold Mindell’s Bodywork with me for 3 years, haven’t gotten round to reading it. Have you?

About noticing the body – have you tried Vipassana Meditation? UK has a lot of retreats. perhaps one program? It is body oriented, and profound.

your comments about the commercialisation of Kundalini and in fact much yoga practice, are very pertinent as this attitude now pervades our society. It is very difficult sometimes to find a way through it, as most people in our society are interested in yoga primarily as a means of getting/staying fit, so the attitudes of mind and being (more than just concepts) that you are steeped in are impenetrable (to use a purusha word) or strange, alienating, threatening etc. However, they can be introduced gently and there is usually an appetite for them and intuitive understanding once a person has experienced the soothing and transformative effects of a physical yoga practice.

I do almost start to feel that one needs to live in/be part of a culture where these things are lived and felt, to have them become more than concepts. And I wonder if that is why I sometimes find myself so jumbled.

By coincidence, I am currently reading Rumer Godden’s autobiographies. Do you know her work? A British novelist, she grew up in India and returned there at stages throughout her life, it is interesting to observe her appreciation of the culture which resonates with our discussions.

I haven’t read the Mindell book but I will. Most of my bodywork reading has been works by influential yoga teachers. I have come across Vipassana meditation as well as other practices, I have a friend who is studying meditation very seriously and I hope that she will engage in this discussion…

Hi Ruth, I didn’t recgonize you, I thought you were Sophia. What a great pen name though ! . And the reason I don’t post on other blogs is to maintain privacy. This is excellent way of posting – under a penname !!! Must think about it…

Interesting comments re ‘pennames’. I’ve had some mixed experiences with people using these here and elsewhere. As with anything, I think it is the intention that is important. I know that it can discomfort others. It can also create a different relationship with what one feels empowered to say/write.
I know that you have thought all of this through, and I do understand why you might wish to do this.

I am still wrestling with the public nature of the internet as a forum for expressing views. When I first posted on a blog I used a kind of penname briefly, but abandoned it. I’m happier being named myself.

Anonymity of personal life is a requirement of my profession. Hence the constant struggle to post or not to post publicly, and if yes, then to constantly analyze purpose, effect, where, and to what extent.

Hi Madhu, Sophia is one of my names, and sometimes I use it. I don’t know how it got here, actually. It could be a penname, but I haven’t had time to write my 1st book! I have to figure out a way to work and write at the same time! I’m thinking out loud here about using an ‘alias’ or penname. It does make a separation between a person’s life and their work. As therapists, we carry responsibilities toward our clients. Too much info re: your therapist/analyst, etc. is not such a good thing, especially for the container! That relationship is sacred. So, in some ways we do lead a partially concealed life for the good of the work/client. It’s not that we are doing something dishonest, illegal, whatever, and hiding it. In therapy, the focus is on the client’s details, not ours. I don’t know where you are or what professional assoc you belong to, but in CA in my assoc., they reveal in print(in our journal-or online) which licensed MFT’s are being investigated, what the accusations are , and what the investigation revealed and the decisions by the licensing board. Boy, it really gives you an insight as to what kinds of things can overcome a person who got into this profession ostensibly to ‘help’! Usually it’s drugs or alcohol, or other addictions. It’s done as a deterrent. I think that and having to take Ethics courses every 2 yrs to get relicensed are good ones.

first I’m really pleased that you both came on to my blog and under your own names to post despite the issues around this because of your professions which I do appreciate, and hope my previous post communicated.

People use pen names and aliases on blogs (and have done so on this blog) for other reasons than those of your profession. I have seen examples where this can empower people to say things they wouldn’t wish to say, or wouldn’t have the courage to say, under their own ‘real’ identities. Whether this is a good or bad thing depends on context, content and intention.

I think it is fascinating, Ruth, that you ended up on here as ‘Sophia’ without meaning to if I understand you rightly. How could that happen?! I realised it was you and wasn’t going to comment because I understood why you might prefer to come on under another name.

I wondered if for both or either of you it felt more ok to come on to this blog because it’s well out of your ‘jurisdictions’?

There are so many national as well as professional differences about the conventions around and attitudes towards blogging that I am just starting to become more aware of, it’s an interesting area in its own right.

I so enjoyed reading this one Karin, absolutely fascinating on so many levels.

I remember reading in one of Karen Armstrong’s books on comparative religions that western society has been influenced and developed from the point of ‘logos’ or logical argument. In almost polarity, eastern societies have been influenced more by ‘mythos’ or to accept that which is written. Whilst neither is the whole, both contain colours and flavours that are needed for our overall development at individual and societal levels.

My humble entry into an understanding of a life containing yoga started when I was recommended by a diabetic hospital in Madras to involve myself in regular practice of a ‘prescription’ of given asana, which I duly did.

After a short while of ‘self conscious’ struggling to ‘get the asana right’ I realised that my body was listening to the asana regardless of the chatter in my mind. Having lowered my dangerous glucose levels to now very healthy levels, I have gained health, as well as finding new ways to play with space and time.

Sorry I do hope this makes sense and does not appear to be as oddly rambling as it does now I have read back through. But I did want to share my thoughts as they came to me and this resonated with Kren Armstrong in a round about way.

Glen, Interesting analysis on mythos, and acceptance of the written. Briefly, that “need” comes from early relationship with parents. In of itself, the symbolic need just is simply a rebellion against, or a longing for our father.

If you meditate on what I just said, the connections may become clearer. And then, the choice simply becomes “what am *I* going to do? Rebel against my father, or accept his teachings.” Which in turn will be determined by how one holds the father image inside.

this is thought-provoking especially the comment about rebelling or accepting the teachings depends on how one holds the father image inside. Maybe this awareness can provide a bit of detachment from knee-jerk reactions.

There is also a cultural difference – that is, the Western, particularly 20th century (and beyond) need to create one’s own identity, be one’s own person in relation to previous generations vs the Eastern acceptance and respect for one’s place in the unfolding generations. So it’s not just about logos over mythos. It’s also about a different orientation and attitude towards the Self.

What I really meant to say was that culture is a consequence of how the father, and the mother image is held. The internal father/moother image inhibits as well as enables….in different ways…and impels and compels us to move in different ways…

IMO, the Eastern and Western attitudes are different *because* of how the father image is experienced and held inside. We’re respectful, not close to our fathers. And everything associated with father is held in such respect. because it is held at a distance, the familiarity, and hence the consequential failings that familiarity breeds, are ignored.

Ultimately everything goes back to child rearing practices. And in the psyche, all is symbolically associated.

Its an interesting theme and much analysed. My unfinished PhD dissertation is dedicated to the subject “Mothering as a causal influence in the construction of diversity.” Someday perhaps I will be ready for publishing it.

Madhu, yes I see where you’re coming from with the idea that a culture develops from both the experience of the mother and father, and how those experiences are held. I do think that traditionally there is an echo of the same kind of father relationship (distance, respect etc) in the West as you describe in the East, but maybe just a faint echo. I would like to read your thesis sometime or any published parts of it.

not at all ‘oddly rambling’. Thanks for your comment and for sharing this development in your life which, from a personal perspective, gives me a glimpse of your experiences since we last met many years ago. What you say about your initial effort in your yoga practice to get the asana right captures the Western attitude to asana. Like so much in our lives, when people start to practise yoga they think it’s about being good at it and working hard(er)/driving themselves. This is missing the point entirely. Nor is yoga about taking it easy. As you say, if you can reach a point in your practice where you are able to switch off the striving mind and be here now with the experience, you do become aware of how the body welcomes the experience and change is happening at a very deep level.

I also want to thank you for reminding me of Karen Armstrong’s comments on mythos and logos and how they relate to Eastern and Western orientations. This has just helped me in how I am approaching my yoga practice.

Sorry have been hugely busy since getting your comment, happy to have been of help in some way. My point, simple as it was, was merely a reference to K Armstrong’s work, I would personally subscribe to the fact that we ultimately have the power of choice over our own development and choices.

Glenn, I think we share a background and starting point of a deep belief in the power of choice (thanks to Will Schutz etc). However, I have become increasingly aware of the aspects that are hardwired into us at a deep, unconscious level, so I would no longer put it quite the way you do – but it’s interesting to read your comment, note my response, and see how I’ve changed. Hope you keep commenting, and that you’re enjoying what is keeping you busy.
Karin

I find all this a bit too deep and meaningful for me however it did get me thinking about how quadraplegics and others like Stephen Hawking might feel about their physical importance. It seems a person can exist without a strong physical presence but not without a mental capability so doesn’t that naturally make the mind more important than the body?

Steve, thanks for your comment. I’m having to resist the temptation of getting lost in an internet search to explore how Stephen Hawking and others experience their bodies (haven’t got time for that now). I have no idea what their physical presence would be like and wouldn’t want to make any assumptions. What does it mean to exist with or without a strong physical presence? And equally what is it like to exist without a strong mental presence? And what is the definition of a strong physical/mental presence? (getting dangerously close to talking about what is ‘normal’…..)

Working with the body for me means relating and releasing deeply embedded patterns of behaviour, thought and speech that have been somatised through many lifetimes. As a Westerner, but with many years practice in eastern methods, particularly Kum Nye Tibetan yoga and meditation, and Buddhist psychotherapy, I am only now realising the extent to which I have been dominated by mental energies, rather than listening to the wisdom of my body. My work on ’embodiment’ is taken into psychotherapeutic, spiritual and organisational settings, and in each of these, the discovery of the energies of the body can be transformative. The simple yet profound Buddhist practice of ‘sitting with’ whatever arises is enlightening, particularly when we really accept how things are. It is difficult to be a human being, and that is what us Westerners find hard to accept! And why we push for ever more growth in an attempt to make life easier. The focusing work of Gendlin is also useful in finding ways into the body and its secrets, and ways of working with these stubborn patternings – many of which start in the womb and birth process, so it is not surprising that we find it so difficult to change. These are powerful energies indeed, and those which can be released through Kundalini yoga, I believe.

I’m working with the idea of matter being all energy, and developing a field of inquiry called holonomics at the East West Sanctuary, Centre of Contemplative Inquiry, near Budapest.
For more discussion on embodiment , have a look at the website:
eastwestinterconnect.co.uk

Hello Bronwen, thanks for your comment. I remember you by your birth name having met you on a meditation course at the Cambridge Buddhist Centre it must be 10 years ago. What working with the body means for you and your comments about Kundalini yoga are very resonant with Charles Zeltzer’s talk and experience.

This is becoming so interesting! I love the freedom that contributers appear to feel in posting here! That’s what I think makes it so great! Also, Karin, it has to do with the container you have set up for your site. Your comments and suggestions set the stage for us to feel free.

The name Sophia/Sofia is an ancient word for Wisdom. Often a name of choice can be something one strives for, or follows, or hopes for, in some way.

Hello Sophia,
it’s lovely to see you reappear here – and nice also to feel that this strand is still alive. I sometimes feel sad that once a new post goes up, it’s as if the page has turned irrevocably on what comes before, so I particularly like it when someone revives a dormant conversation. I love reading what people write on my blog, I have found that it is creating my own personal development path and is giving me far more stimulation than I would ever have imagined. So thanks to everyone! I do sometimes feel concerned that people might feel they have to write something well thought-through however, as a couple of my friends have said they haven’t posted because they’ve not had the time or energy to craft their thoughts fully. Personally I welcome every and any thought people offer, and I like half-thoughts too.

I set up an e-mail address mainly for my yoga activities with the name Satya in it which is the Sanskrit word for Truth. I agree fully with what you say, that ‘often a name of choice can be something one strives for, or follows, or hopes for, in some way.’ Thank you for that observation.
I hope you’ll come back again and join in other conversations.
Karin