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Dragging uke towards me (or in any direction) is never part of my repertoire so very much a YMMV issue!

OMG, Janet. You have to promise me you will try this one. It''s delightful. You would apply this as a henka the next time you go for nikkyo and don't quite have it. If uke is giving you resistance to the drive toward the ground, you can switch your grip and draw him in, cutting with downward pressure against the wrist, as you back up as many steps as is practical.

The hand you're holding their hand with stays the same. The key is to rake the top of their forearm (really, the bottom of their forearm, which is turned upward at that point) with the bottom edge of your's, (toward you) instead of grasping their wrist. You know the lightning bolts you get from yonka jo? Uke will follow you to Japan, trying to get ahead of this one. Sorry I don't have a good .gif to offer. If you practice it once, you will figure it out.

I don't know how to express it much more clearly. Words don't really work until you've felt it. Then, they work just fine.l

I get what you're saying, but I don't believe in absolutes like that. Those kinds of concepts are not going to keep you from being abducted, if you are suddenly in the wrong country, or suffer some other mishap. You don't know. I'm not living under the threat of violence every day, but crazy $h!!+ happens every day. A few hours a week I can spend some time on it. That's just being prudent. I mean, you're already there in the dojo sweating.

I get what you're saying, but I don't believe in absolutes like that. Those kinds of concepts are not going to keep you from being abducted, if you are suddenly in the wrong country, or suffer some other mishap. You don't know. I'm not living under the threat of violence every day, but crazy $h!!+ happens every day. A few hours a week I can spend some time on it. That's just being prudent. I mean, you're already there in the dojo sweating.

Are we talking about Liam Neeson rescuing his daughter now? I thought we were talking about training in a dojo. If you want to talk about doing this stuff "for real," that's a different conversation.

You can make up whatever scenario you think is plausible. You're not forced to do that, either. I am going to train a couple times a week. Personally, I would feel like I was wasting my time if I weren't getting some practical skills out of it. And I would switch dojos. But I don't, so that tells you something about the range of Aikido experiences you can have.

And I think it's appropriate to have a conversation about doing this "for real". Why not? I see you have some budo in your dojo description. What are they teaching you there?

If you're really interested in what we teach here, feel free to drop by if you're ever in the area. Our contact info is in my signature. We also have lots of good places to eat. Just avoid Phoenix in the summer. Too damn hot.

Do any of you guys practice the Nikka jo variation where you cut toward your knee drag and uke toward you? That one can make you wet your dogi.

My teacher shows this, as an option in certain situations. He also teaches that you shouldn't depend on pain compliance for nikkyo to work, so go figure.

"Drag" is probably not the best term, though it's inevitable shorthand. It's more like: make a hole, lock up uke's structure so there's no where else for him to go, and the more he falls into it the more hole you make. It looks a lot like dragging.

If I have to base it on your sales pitch, you may be toward the end of the list, Mike.

I don't make sales pitches. In fact, we generally try to talk people out of training with us. What I did was invite you openly to visit my home. How you responded tells me all I need to know about who you are.

Serves me right for trying to engage in a friendly exchange of information in a public forum. I think I have nothing further to say here.

Do any of you guys practice the Nikka jo variation where you cut toward your knee drag and uke toward you? That one can make you wet your dogi.

When tori does that to me, they usually get dumped on their ass through the hand they are putting through their "impossible nikyo", not because I'm being mean, but because any time you drag uke anywhere, uke can take you if uke is allowed (or required) to be honest.

I don't make sales pitches. In fact, we generally try to talk people out of training with us. What I did was invite you openly to visit my home. How you responded tells me all I need to know about who you are.

Serves me right for trying to engage in a friendly exchange of information in a public forum. I think I have nothing further to say here.

Don't be insulted, Mike. It was just a joke, lost in translation. You did a fair job of discouraging me and then warned me about the heat, so I said you weren't selling it very well. Much is lost in text-only communication.

When tori does that to me, they usually get dumped on their ass through the hand they are putting through their "impossible nikyo", not because I'm being mean, but because any time you drag uke anywhere, uke can take you if uke is allowed (or required) to be honest.

Again, there are no absolutes. Any time you do anything, you're vulnerable to a counter. As I mentioned earlier on one thread or another, watching MMA does have it's plusses- It reveals that even world champion fighters land techniques a fraction of the times they attempt them.

This is henka waza, so it's difficult to test repeatedly. But you and I both know if we did it 10 times, you are going to dump me X times and I'm going to drag you X times.

"Drag" is probably not the best term, though it's inevitable shorthand... It looks a lot like dragging.

This is an astute observation. "Cutting toward your knee, as you take a number of steps backward" is pretty ungainly, and isn't that much better a description. Guess a picture really is worth a thousand words.

Agreed. I never want to pull uke into me, let alone drag him anywhere.

PS: I'm liking a lot of what you're saying lately. It's been too long since I've had my hands on you. We need to remedy that as soon as possible.

I'd love to get together w/ you, Tarik, Chuck, etc...it's darn hard for me to get to Bay Area or to Tarik's unless I'm going to stay put in the area for a few days, which means considerable advance planning....but am very much open to aiming for it!

How do you teach them that, though? I'm assuming there's more to it that just explaining those words to them, but I'm wondering what the teaching looks like in practice, if they aren't actually dealing with pain when they're training. Is it like, they are taught and practice not pushing back and the goal is to make it enough of an automatic habit that it they do encounter pain, they already have the right habit of how to respond? Or there is occasionally some pain, it's just very mild, but it's enough that they can try out ways of responding and learn the correct response that works and cement it into the automatic part of their brain? Basically, if they don't encounter pain when they're training, how do you prevent the panic response when they do encounter pain, where they get surprised and respond in a way that makes it worse? Or have I misunderstood what's meant by not causing pain?

Bill, if you can get me a video of this, I'd love to try it. I think I am lacking in some mental ability in translating words to physical actions, but I love a good nikkyo. We have quite a few super flexible young men we train with, and pain compliance on some techniques is hard to come by. I've got one that I refer to as "the fancy nikkyo" that works with pain compliance on all of them, and I'd love to learn another one.

--Ashley

Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote:

The hand you're holding their hand with stays the same. The key is to rake the top of their forearm (really, the bottom of their forearm, which is turned upward at that point) with the bottom edge of your's, (toward you) instead of grasping their wrist. You know the lightning bolts you get from yonka jo? Uke will follow you to Japan, trying to get ahead of this one. Sorry I don't have a good .gif to offer. If you practice it once, you will figure it out.

Bill, if you can get me a video of this, I'd love to try it. I think I am lacking in some mental ability in translating words to physical actions, but I love a good nikkyo. We have quite a few super flexible young men we train with, and pain compliance on some techniques is hard to come by. I've got one that I refer to as "the fancy nikkyo" that works with pain compliance on all of them, and I'd love to learn another one.

--Ashley

I'm trying to find a video for you. Tell us about your fancy nikkyo in the meantime. It's just a discussion, so you don't have to be a Shihan to offer something.

i had folks cranking on my wrist, elbows and so on. some even tore my shoulder. but folks did that, never got my center. then there are folks whose nikkyo and sankyo so gentle that you just have no choice and your center broken the whole time. this video is one of those gentle folks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hg_o...EC46C5073AE044 that i had my hands on. Mary Heiny's nikkyo also very nice and gentle, but she also had at least 3 atemi on you before the technique was over. i really don't care for folks who crank on my wrist with both of their hands which allow me to drop fast and go for groin shot or kick to their knees.

i had folks cranking on my wrist, elbows and so on. some even tore my shoulder. but folks did that, never got my center. then there are folks whose nikkyo and sankyo so gentle that you just have no choice and your center broken the whole time.. i really don't care for folks who crank on my wrist with both of their hands which allow me to drop fast and go for groin shot or kick to their knees.

You come up with some gems.

Ankle pick is a great counter for a sloppy Nikkyo, too. Takes the pressure off and works like a charm. You just fake like it worked and stand back up with his foot in your hand. Or a handful of dogi cuff.

Anybody ever do a Shiho Nage on someone's leg? Never seen it done, but that might be a good time.