Forumshttp://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.plOLDER DECWARE GEAR SUPPORT >> TORII MK III >> New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1334713586Message started by orangecrush on 04/18/12 at 02:46:26

Title: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by orangecrush on 04/18/12 at 02:46:26
Received my Torii. Only 100 hrs but so far it's transparancy is breath taking. My wife is a piano teacher and she is astounded at the amps ability to express how softly or hard keys are played. The scale of full orchestral music is shocking. I am a vocal lover and am thrilled at how I can now hear how close to the mic the singer is and other nuances. Tom Waits Orphans-Bawlers has so much intimacy and texture it is hard for me to turn it off!

I am new to tubes and so need some help. I have enjoyed your comments on this forum. First, my minimalist system consists of a BPT-1 balanced power isolation transformer, SB touch with Flac recordings, MHDT Havana with Bendix red bank, Torii with vcaps and 16 ohm taps, Zu Soul Superfly.

I listen in a near field triangle. I have all stock tubes in the Torii with the optional Shugang Treasues waiting to take a turn. The JJ's sound good so far. The input tubes are EH 6922's which surprised me as I thought the stock were Russian 6n1p's. The rectifiers are stock OA3 and OC2. The OC2 is Raytheon Kr85 and glows lavender.

The Zu's are extremy dynamic, highly resolving, forward sounding but also unforgiving to the point that with some music I feel the need for a bit more warmth and body. I have the treble pots set at 11 o'clock and the bass at 1:00 o'clock.

Would switching to the 6n1p-ev do the trick or would the National's 7dj8 from upscale audio be better?

Which 6n1p's to buy?

Also, I want to replace the stock Chinese 5u4g's. What do you reccomend and a good source to buy them from?

Thinking of Winged "C" (SED) 5U4-G Black Plates.

Thanks for your help!

Title: Re: New Zen Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 04/18/12 at 03:39:27
Congratulations! I know you're going to be very happy with this amp.

I think the 6N1P may be a good choice to add warmth to the sound. I find that the 6N1P tubes offered by www.cryoset.com are very good, I've tried several and all are nice-sounding and have survived cryo-ing and been very reliable and stable.

In my opinion almost any 5U4G tube will be better than those Rubys, I really dislike every one of those I've heard. I've had good success with this tube type by RCA, GE, EH and Sylvania, in both straight-sided and bottle shaped. I buy these from ebay, and also have bought from a board member and from www.tubeman.com

But some of the current brightness may dissipate with some use. I'd say stick it out for a few hundred hours and evaluate again. And keep us posted!

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 04/18/12 at 07:18:54
Sounds like a nice setup!

With only 100 hours on the V-caps and 6CA7s, it would certainly seem you are not hearing where the amp will go, but I get the urge to refine with tubes, and nice ones offer good tuning choices now and later. I find that every tube counts for fine tuning, not just the power and input tubes. If your Torii has the straight sided Russian OA3's, you can get a warmer sound from some 50s OA3s. Ebay and Tubeworld are good sources for VRs. I particularly like Hytron, Tungsol, and Raytheon labeled ST shaped VRs for warmth.

Also, if you do not have tube dampers, I suspect they might solve some of your current sound refinement needs. Check out Herbiesaudiolab. I find that these solidify the tone of tubes and help take the edginess off.

I got some 1955 Winged -C 5U4G-STs from ebay, and so far I prefer the warm transparency and balance of my 50's RCA-STs, but the Russian tubes only have about 80 hours, so I am not sure this is a fair comparison. I do think the Russian 5U4Gs will warm things up over the bright and open Ruby's, though mine seem to have a high mid bump compared to the neutrality of the RCAs. I like 5U4GBs a lot too and they are cheap on Ebay. I find Raytheon/Tungsol are warmish, and Sylvania, more open/neutral.

Not having heard the ElectroHarmonics 6922, I can't compare. And I can't get the 6N1Ps to sound right in my Torii in that they are too prone to distortion with my setup, so I stick with 6922, 6DJ8, and 7DJ8. Any of these types can be warmer or more neutral depending on make and year.

I prefer buying "pulls," or relatively low usage Old Stock tubes when possible, being notably cheaper and already broken in. Mullard and Amperex 6922 and 6DJ8 are my favorites overall.

7DJ8s are a good bargain for the most part for NOS, and most I have heard sound good. The upscale National is an interesting tube with a nice warmth, deep bass, good balance, and a particularly open and seductive presence. It could end up a little in your face with your present tubes though, it is so clear and dynamic across the spectrum. But with warmer 5U4G and/or OA3s, you might love them. They are a very expressive tube bringing out a lot of macro and micro detail. Or for an inexpensive taste of the 7DJ8 the Lorenz labeled Eis at tubemonger are smoother/warmer than the Nationals and might help without changing the other tubes. Also a touch warmer, one of my current favorites for a natural sound is a Siemens/CBS 7DJ8 from cryoset.

Lately I have been back to exploring 6922s though, particularly some Mullard gold pin pulls.

I have to say though that I have a range of all the tube types, so I can easily mix and match to make most decent tubes sound very good. So many tubes and so little time!

Have fun!

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by orangecrush on 04/19/12 at 02:18:20
Thanks Lon and Will, I put the treasures in and immediately noticed more body. My OA3's are Russian straight sided. They say v83 on the side, is that right?

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 04/19/12 at 02:46:47
I think things are well with your OA3s as they were shipped with the amp. The tubes that ship with the Torii change as time goes on...but you can bet Steve liked the synergy at the time. He also sells the premium Treasures and V-caps as upgrades he has decided are worth it. Then there are your source, speakers, cables, feet, power and the rest that the Torii will reveal the individual characters of, as well as the synergy or lack there of, and we go from there. I am really glad the amp is that revealing, making fine tuning to personal taste very articulate no matter how deeply we choose to explore.

My Russian straight sided OA3 say V-68 on the side. I wonder if it is a batch or date code. So hard to tell which do what without direct comparison, but mine are very clear and open. Not warm. This to me is not necessarily bad though as the tubes have great extension and are very revealing, working well with warmer tubes. My favorite bright OA3 is a 80s Sylvania ST shape from tubeworld though, which I tend to choose over the Russian when I need a transparent OA3.

I guess the Treasures are new? So many new parts, but if they fill the need for more body, that is great. I hear the Treasures take a good 300 hours or more to really come into their sound, and I have found the JJs to take 200 or so, but they get close to where they will go after 120 or 130 gradually improving after.

I also find that treble and bass adjustments are often, if not most of the time, relevant with tube changes.

Also speaker position tweaks can be good now and then to refine the sound as the amp develops.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 04/19/12 at 02:58:23
On another note, relative to your first post, I recall Steve saying that he voices the amp with 6922s. Don't know which ones, but it is not surprising that he is shipped yours with the EH 6922 considering this.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by orangecrush on 04/19/12 at 20:03:06
Ok, I found some 1940's RCA 5R4GY (Military spec) and 1950's RCA 5U4G black plates. Both are ST coke bottle's.

Any advice on which is better?

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Doorman on 04/19/12 at 20:14:26
I'm never sure what "better" means, however, "which do you prefer" is a'nother kettle of fish.-trying to clarify only, not start a war!!I'd be interested in preferences myselfBestDon

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 04/19/12 at 20:42:45
I've never heard 5R4GY in the Torii, so it's really hard to say. The fifties 5U4G that I have sound great in the Torii.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 04/19/12 at 23:34:26
I have not heard 5R4GYs either, but have been tempted to try them.

If I am not mistaken there are a number of variations of the RCA 50s 5U4G-STs. I have two of them, one with wider interiors on the plates, and one with narrower. Also there are those with bottom getters and those with top getters, and different micas too. I like both of my pairs though, the heavier plate ones being a bit richer and more liquid, and the lighter plates being a little more open.

After figuring this out, I would ask for matches in construction if I were to order any from say Brent Jesse, who has a lot of them with various labels and construction.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by orangecrush on 04/20/12 at 01:18:49
Thanks guys, I ordered the 1950'2 RCA Jan-5U4-G-ST's. Seemed to be the safest bet.

That should get me started. I really like the EL34 Treasures so far. Not sure if they worth the price yet but they really are smooth right out of the box.

Thanks for your help and will post impressions in time.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 04/20/12 at 01:39:37
Good set of tubes to get you going. I'm using the Treasures in my Torii. They sound fantastic but needed a lot of break in. So be patient 'cause they will change up on you until they settle down.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 04/20/12 at 02:38:26
Sounds like a really good set of tubes to play with. With your 2 sets of EL34 and options with all the rest of your tube types, the combination possibilities are pretty vast. The RCA OC2 by the way will sound different than the Raythions, that is if the Raythions are older tubes too, so yet another tuning option.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by orangecrush on 04/28/12 at 03:41:31
Wow, I really like the National 7DJ8 from upscale. Same dynamics and drive as the EH 6922 that came with the amp but more much more body and texture without any loss of detail. Really nice!

I also put in the RCA 0A3 and 0C2's. No real discernible difference to my ears but the amp is no where near broken in yet.

Have not received the 6n1p's or the RCA rectifiers yet.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 04/28/12 at 21:09:37
Great news on the Nationals! I really like the texture that 7DJ8s tend to offer and the Nationals do have a nice balance of detail, body, bass and dynamics. The EHs sound like they must be lean at this point in your system. Interesting. Surprised on the VRs. Though the OC2s can be subtler, I haven't heard two OAs sound alike except those of the same make and time. Your suggestion of early stage burnin being an influence makes sense. Keep us informed!

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by orangecrush on 04/28/12 at 23:43:56
Your right Will, I have not burned in any of these tubes yet!

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by orangecrush on 05/03/12 at 01:25:43
Received a pair of 1957 Svetlana's 5U4G's and right out of the box they took that very slight remaining edge off on some music. (e.g. Bob Dylan's harmonica) They also really tightened up the bass on the Zu Superfly's. The Zu's put out all the bass you could want with the Torii. My Torii has 8 and 16 ohm taps but actually I like the 8 ohms better with the Zu's. More weight and fuller sounding. Vocals have more presence.

Lon, you were right about those ruby's. I think most people who don't want to tube roll could change that one pair and be done with it. Steve's stock shipping tubes are voiced very well. If I did not have the Zu's which are famous for getting 'in you face' at times, I probably would have just rolled with the stock tubes.

Now waiting for the 1950's RCA 5UGB's and the 6N1P's :)

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 05/03/12 at 03:08:05
Glad you are enjoying the sound that much! The amp will be even better sounding as it seasons.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 05/03/12 at 03:21:28
Great news on the rectifiers. I have found that individual tubes have particular sound attributes in the Torii, but as usual, it is finally synergy. And the magic synergy sometimes arrives in unexpected ways.

I had been running National 7DJ8s with Hytron OC3s, Mullard OC2, 50's RCA 5U4G-ST and cryo'd JJ 6CA7s. Then I got a pair of 60s Philips/Amperex SQ 6922 pulls, and Dylan and trumpets and the like began to hurt a bit on top...too bright. The rest sounded good but a bit warm and dense by comparison to the high mids up.

I started by rolling in some 50's Westinghouse OB3s (same as 50s Tungsol as far as I can tell) for a bit more body and weight, then began wandering through 5U4Gs. First I tried 55 Svetlanas and top was pretty sweet, but a bit bright still, while below, they sounded too thick and thunky. With a few previous tube sets, I found the Svetlanas to bias a bit toward the upper mids up with a slightly less articulate bass compared to my particular 50s RCA 5U4G-STs, but with better balance than with this set.

Then I started trying my favorite 5U4GBs, ones I typically consider extended, balanced and spacious. After several busts, I arrived at an unexpected pair, some Raytheon 5U4GBs (I think 40's) with flared bases. I thought of these tubes as ones I could use to open the mids to top, but with this combination, the sound is warm, liquid, yet open, with deep articulate bass, and lovely clear but smooth highs. And these tubes cost about 20 bucks delivered from Ebay!

I love this sort of discovery.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by orangecrush on 05/03/12 at 05:55:38
Thanks Will, you are amazing! I am going to look for those Raytheon 5U4GBs.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 05/03/12 at 19:20:38
Hard to say what they might do for your system/room. I like these particular Raytheons in the right setting, but they are typically an occasional use tube for me. In this set, particularly with these warmer inputs, they are awesome. The bases flare out from the bottom, the relatively fat bottle glass set into the wider top part of the base. They have dual top rectangular getters on the sides.

There are other Raytheons (I believe 50s), fat bottle, medium height, standard bottom, dual top rectangular getters, and these tend to sound very slightly less solid, and little warmer in the low mids, with open and fresh upper mids...interesting too. It looks nearly identical to a pair of Tungsol I have. Seems that at least in the 50s, with OB3s and 5U4GBs I have, that Tungsol and Raytheon are the same.

I really like 5U4GBs as a choice, and since they can be had inexpensively, I have a number of pairs. The distinguishing characteristic for me is a sort of hard to explain, spacious and textural midrange.

The Sylvania tall bottles I have are nicely balanced and lively, and a pair of early RCAs with vey long bottles and inner construction like 5U4G-ST, with no bottom mica....these are amazing in their extension, spaciousness, and transparency, but in my system, they can be demanding, needing just the right balance to warm them up a bit.

The thing I found looking around Ebay for these tubes is to look carefully at the pictures to see that they are just the same construction....same bottle size, mica, getters...as well as test scores. Then even they have different labels, you have something useful to play with.

Fun and games! ;)

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by orangecrush on 05/09/12 at 01:35:59
Ok, I have had a chance to play with all the new tubes. The verdict is surprising:

I prefer the 1950's Svetlana's 5U4G's over the 1950's RCA 5U4G's. Both are the coke bottles.

I also prefer the 6N1P-EV's over the National 7DJ8 (upscale).

The reason is the Zu's. They are so dynamic, imediate and transparant that they need taming with the Torii which is just as dynamic, immediate and transparent. This tube combo gives much more rich layers of texture to the music without any loss of detail. Emotionally addictive and seductive without losing speed and dynamics. I have found audio nirvana for my system.

Now I understand why Gopher was looking for input tubes with a touch of seduction as he had the Zu's as well. This tube combo is the answer.

Right now I am using the JJ output tube as I had a defective Treasure tube, so when I put back in the Treasure I will need to evaluate again.

Thanks Lon and Will for your great help in finding a good combo for my room and system.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 05/09/12 at 01:45:29
Sounds like a great combo! I'm a big fan of the 6N1P in the Torii. I can easily imagine you enjoying your listening immensely!

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 05/09/12 at 04:14:44Quote:

I have found audio nirvana for my system.

Nirvana! Great news!

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 05/10/12 at 21:09:43
FWIW just rolled in a quad of EH 6ca7 fat boys from Upscale Audio and they sound incredible. I've read great reviews about them for awhile now but finally got around to getting some. At $22/tube these are really a great value. Best the Torii has sounded yet.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 05/10/12 at 21:32:45
Thanks for the tip sberger. I have been wondering about those tubes too. Would it be possible to give us some context for your likes and dislikes. Maybe describe what it is that you think is better about the EHs compared to other power tubes you have used... and what you are using for the rest of your tube compliment???

Thanks,

Will

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 05/10/12 at 22:04:47
Sure. Been using Treasures, and had a bad one so had the JJ's that came with the amp in for awhile. Loved the Treasures but not going to be spending the serious $$'s that they ran again. The JJ's are a really nice tube, good extension and dynamics, although not in the same ball park as the Treasures. But the EH's are imo. Right out of the box clean detailed top with just the perfect amount of slam and body. I work while I'm listening to music. Was listening to some Booker Ervin sides that I am very familiar with. When a particular hot segment came on I had to put down my work and simply gawk at my speakers. Something new and exciting was happening with my Torii. As great as it has been since day 1 these tubes just clicked. They just do everything well. The other tubes are Amperex 6922 PQ's, Raytheon OC2's, the OA3's that came with the amp, and 50's TungSol 5U4G's picked up a while back in the classifieds. Hope that helps.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 05/10/12 at 23:10:43
Thanks Sam. Cryoset.com has them in matched quads, so I'm going to give them a try.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 05/10/12 at 23:16:03
Thanks sberger. Sounds like a nice tube in your nice set! Also, cryoset.com has cryo'd at 85 for a quad if anyone is interested. I almost bought some, but got scared by the description saying it was a tetrode design, and since the Torii write up talks about the Pentode design of EL34s, would this particular 6CA7-EH utilize the Hazen grid mod???

And since I know absolutely jack about this, I just didn't go there. Since they work so well for you sberger, Hazen mod, or not, I am re-tempted.

Any thoughts?

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 05/10/12 at 23:16:15
Cool. BTW Lon you raved so much about Cryoset's IC's that I went ahead and bought me some to stick between my pre and the Torii. Should be here next week. Using some Decware IC's now that I'll have to put somewhere else I guess, unless for some reason the Cryoset's don't work out like I anticipate.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 05/10/12 at 23:30:55
I think you'll really enjoy them. Pay attention to the direction, these were the most directional ICs I've ever used (I think it's because of the cryo process and the fact that they are burned in a few days before mailing). There's a color band on one end of each cable that goes at the source end.

I also found that they went through a few audible phases for a few weeks and then settled in to a stable smooth warm sound. Takes about a week to get. . . hope you have them soon.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 05/10/12 at 23:54:30
Good info. Ron emailed me yesterday he was just finishing them up. Should have them next week.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 05/11/12 at 00:05:55
Will interesting point. Haven't a clue if that makes a difference. Time to ask Steve I guess, but these sound so good probably won't make a difference to me.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 05/11/12 at 00:18:13
I don't believe there are any structural or electrical differences between the EH and JJ 6CA7 constructions, and Steve is shipping with the JJs which has made many of us assume (with the lack of a direct word from Steve) that the Hazen Grid improves this tube. . . .

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 05/11/12 at 00:25:47
Looking forward to your thoughts on the cryoset cables. And to Lon's on the 6CA7-EH. Yes, maybe they are the same construction as the JJ 6CA7, I couldn't find out with a cursory search though.

I am just starting to listen to a DIY pair of silver ICs from the VHAudio recipe. Also very directional. I thought about marking them when I built them, but in my excitement, I forgot. So I had to find out from listening one channel at a time, one cable at a time and I marked the source end for the direction with the most micro detail, made most noticeable in ambient information (a great trick for finding the cable with most information that I learned from Eric as dbAudioLabs). So far I would say the cables are awesome...very deep, detailed and smooth picture into the music.

But my system has been very, very engrossing lately anyway, so can't say how they compare until they burn in more. Then I can do some direct comparisons.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 05/11/12 at 00:26:59
Lon you make a good point. From doing some brief research since posting last I found out that while the 6CA7 is the USA id of the El34 and that both are supposed to be pentode some Eastern European manufacturers have been substituting beam tetrodes for El34's because they're cheaper and easier to make. And evidently it's the fat bottle 6CA7's such as the EH's which utilize beam tetrodes, not the skinny bottle variety. The JJ's are considered beam pentode.

So, that said it will be interesting to get a comment from Steve.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 05/11/12 at 00:45:25
Well, we'll see. I'll definitely let you know on or off the board. :) Sounds from what Sam is hearing that the Grid is participating.

Interesting about the home-made ICs. I now have two pair of the Cryoset, one connecting the DAC to the Torii, one from the SACD player to the Torii. And if I have the Reality ICs for when I introduce the CSP2 back into the system; they really work wonderfully in conjunction with the DAC and the CSP2.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 05/11/12 at 01:35:52
Not necessarily I'm afraid. Frankly I'm not sure what a tube that utilizes the HG mod should sound like vs. one that doesn't. It seems that the Treasures also utilize a tetrode design(from brief research I have done...I may be wrong). And whether a tetrode can utilize it also, although I'm guessing that it can't. I have pm'd Steve so hopefully we will have an answer soon.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 05/11/12 at 04:26:18
Thanks for checking it out. I am guessing that since Steve sells the Treasure as a distinct upgrade (and if it is a Tetrode), that it probably utilizes the mod, but I could be wrong. Hopefully he will clarify this for us.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 05/11/12 at 06:49:14
I'm sure you are right. And I should make clear that I am just going on whatever I can find online. As it regards the Treasures there is hardly anything conclusive. I basically would love to find out if a tube like the EH will engage the HGM, and if not at the very least that there is no harm in using it because the sound really is that good.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 05/18/12 at 02:07:51
Well, over 24 hours on the EH now. Interesting sound, though it's rash to make any generalizations with just a full day on the tubes especially as these are cryo'd, they have a more Russian sound than the JJs do, a very Winged C sound. Some bass has come in, and right now they're a bit diffuse sounding, lots of ambient sound with less pinpoint imaging than the fully seasoned JJs do.

I don't plan on changing any other of my tube sets, certainly not before these are settled in, and I don't think they'll need a change in accompanying tubes. We'll see.

They seem to be constructed similarly to the JJ and sound close enough that my guess is that if the JJs take advantage of the Mod, then these do too (and vice versa). But it would be interesting to have word from the top.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 05/18/12 at 05:21:50
Interesting Lon. I really hope Steve addresses this because if you go strictly by what has been written about the mod the EH's shouldn't be able to take advantage. The JJ's are pentode and the EH's are not.

Steve hasn't gotten back to me yet. Perhaps if you send him a PM or email you will have better luck. In the meantime I'm using the JJ's because they sound really good in my current setup and I figure I know for sure that they are taking advantage off all the Torii has to give.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 05/18/12 at 06:03:41
Its all in the sound though isn't it...what makes the music feel most real in our given setting and by our given tastes. Mod or not, sberger, sounds like your experience with the EH is really good. I do wish Steve (or a techy Decware fan) would give us some clarity here on the EH 6CA7 and the Hazen Grid mod though.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 05/18/12 at 12:49:09
I haven't seen anything really concrete that says that the EH are tetrode and the JJ pentode. . . .

Anyway, Steve no more answers my emails than anyone else's. . . I've had to go through Sarah my last few queries. I think if we start a thread, that may get his attention. . . .

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 05/18/12 at 14:27:20
The sales blurb on the EH refers to it as a "classic tetrode". See The Tubestore for one example. There is also several threads on various audio and guitar forums. Same for the JJ as a pentode. A Google brings up a lot of info.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 05/18/12 at 14:47:47
Yeah, I read all that. I just don't necessarily TRUST any of it. I don't know how to evaluate the sources. There's a lot of misinformation out there about tubes. (I'm especially skeptical of what guitarists say about tubes. I've known a lot of them, played with a lot of them, and many don't necessarily know anything appropriate about tubes). Note that tubestore doesn't seem to really know what's what with the JJ regarding tetrode or pentode.

It may well be true that JJ is pentode and EH tretrode, and there's enough of a difference in the presentation between the two tubes to suggest that it may be possible that one utilizes the mod and one doesn't. But I'd really only trust what I hear from Steve.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 05/18/12 at 16:07:53
Agree on all points.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 05/18/12 at 16:58:02
I followed your example, and put the JJs back in for now, and have the EH in my Torii Mk II in my bedroom system. Their slight "sunniness" in comparison to the JJs is always fine there, where due to speaker placement I have more bass than I know what to do with. I'll continue breaking them in there and enjoy the JJs out here for another spell. Have really gotten used to the JJs, really enjoy them.

Ron Sheldon at cryoset told me a few days ago he shipped your cables, so you should have those to enjoy soon! Alright!

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 05/18/12 at 17:15:11
I got them, put them between my pre abd the Torii and put the Decware cables rhat I had there between my phono pre and pre. Have already experienced a not so subtle improvement after about 15 hours. Good stuff!

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 05/18/12 at 17:51:47
Good news!

Title: Re: New Torii owner I'll- help with tube rolling.
Post by sberger on 05/18/12 at 19:11:16
And now to throw another new flavor into the mix I got my quad of "Mullard" El34's today from Tube Depot and promptly put them in. On first listen a slightly warmer, less forward presentation than either the JJ's or EH's. Not bad at all. As with all of these varieties the price is right so no harm no foul in trying them out and having them around in case of a blow out. Will report back after some mileage is put on them. Have you guys tried the Mullards?

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 05/18/12 at 19:30:52
I had a pair in my SE34 Monoblocks and my SE34I.2 and enjoyed them. Have not tried a quad yet in the Torii--in the Torii I've used Winged C EL34, Svetlana EL34, Tungsol (reissue) El34, JJ and now EH.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 05/18/12 at 20:42:28
I have not tried the new Mullards. I have NOS RFT labeled Brinmar, Winged C, cryoset Tungsol, cryoset Ruby's (EL34BSTR fat bottle), Groove Tube #7, "raw" JJ 6CA7, and my favorite these days, cryoset JJ 6CA7.

Both JJs sound good, and the differences in my system are not huge, but definitely notable. The cryoset JJs are more refined with more black, smoother, more open, tighter bass, more ambient details, more saturated sound stage. The raw are softer with a more fuzed together sound, a little more edgy, though the edge to me is somewhat tempered by the distortions (???) the cryoset process removes. They seem a little more forgiving and warmer to me, but I think they are just less refined. I like the the raw ones, but personally, I keep wanting the cryos after I stick in the raw ones in.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by JD on 05/23/12 at 14:40:33
Curious to know how many of you broke the torii in with the shipped tubes versus those who tube rolled immediately after receiving the amp. I am going to be receiving the amp in the next couple weeks and haven't decided the route to take. I have some paired amperex bugle boys 6dj8, cryo'd quad set of mullard el34, nos tesla 6922, couple new jj's and a couple random nos rectifier tubes around. Patience is not a virtue of mine so would appreciate any and all comments/advice.

thanx

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 05/23/12 at 16:02:55
JD,

I changed the rectifiers and input tubes right off, knowing from my previous amp that I liked the 50's RCA 5U4G-ST's over the Rubys, and I can't recall the inputs...maybe bugle boys or cryoset 6N23Ps. This tube preference was corroborated by comparing these tubes in the Torii, but my previous SE34I+ was family sound-wise.

Then since I had bass issues with the Torii's introduction to my system/room, I started playing with OB3 and OC3 Voltage Regulators and some 5AR4/GZ34 pretty fast. More room treatment, speaker adjustments, and very specific EQ in computer were bigger solutions for this, but I am glad I got these other tubes because they helped at the time and also opened a lot of doors for tube exploration and discovery. Finally (with lots of tubes of all types in the cupboard) fine-tuned synergy with various tube combinations is a lot of fun for me.

The JJ 6AC7 in my system/room took a long time to show what they were really about and to me were worth the wait. I prefer cryoset ones, but the "raw" ones sound quite good in my setup too.

Unless you have some system room incompatibility, you will be hearing great sound from the start, but you will also be burning in the amp internals, so it may be that broken in tubes could possibly help you get what you like during the breakin. Easy enough to find out. I always do whatever I can to just love the sound, be it cable or tube rolling, speaker placement, or whatever. It is so easy to roll if you choose to.

Then there are the bass and treble knobs, and the bias and impedance switches. So on the other hand, the amp is voiced well and there may be some merit to burning everything in at once as you get to know the amp.

I don't know what your old amp was, but I think the Torii is so revealing that breakin does not suck, but it is a notable deal in serious listening mode. In my system, everything perceptibly matters, especially after 200-300 hours on the stock amp. So if you do roll, I think it is relevant to consider that the sound you get from the tubes you use will change some after the amp and/or tubes burn in fully, so a subtle like or dislike now may become a different thing in several months. And this becomes even more relevant after finding system/room synergy with cables and gear. At this point, my system synergy is so complete that it will sound great with any decent tube given the right combination.

I just go for the best I can toward my personal tastes and room. But I have been called a tweaker.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 05/23/12 at 16:24:10
My experience is very similar to will's and I thank him for his detailed response.

I broke mine in with the stock tubes with the exception of the Ruby rectifiers, I've a long history of disliking those so I put in RCA brand ones that I knew had worked well in my Integrated (like will I owned that amp before a Torii) and my Torii Mk II.

Besides the Rubys I believe that the stock tubes are a good choice and a good way to get a handle on the "basic sound" of the amp. But there's no reason to not start with your own choice of compatible tubes, as long as you keep in mind as will pointed out that there will be a change in sound as the amp and tubes season. I think this amp gets better and better as time goes by, and the owner understands how to tailor it to his own taste and listening material.

You've chosen an excellent amp! An adventure awaits you!

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by JD on 05/23/12 at 16:51:45
Thanks guys I am really getting excited/ slightly anxious...I am moving from solid state to tube so all of your advice is really helpful. I am also going to be breaking in Zen Styx and have ERR's and the CSP2+ preamp on order. I have been saving up for a while and I want to get full enjoyment along with the full understanding of what and how I am doing it.Thanks again.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 05/24/12 at 00:50:55
Exciting times coming!

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Hipfan on 07/23/12 at 16:56:13
Looking for comments regarding the RCA 5U4GB rectifiers in the Torii MK3. Also, can anyone identify the vintage, based on the following pic? There are no date codes on the tubes, just a "BN".

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Hipfan on 07/23/12 at 17:18:04
I did some digging an the BN stamp appears to be from May 1967, so I'm not sure how these would compare sonically, to the fifties vintage.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 07/23/12 at 17:24:38
These are going to be good tubes in the Mk III based on my experience; I used a pair of similar vintage in my Integrated and then in my Torii for some time. Will have a darker, punchier sound than the stock tubes. In my experience the fifties and sixties share a family sound. The fifties may be a bit more revealing of fine detail than the sixties of tubes I've had, which may or may not be a good thing. . . .

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Hipfan on 07/23/12 at 23:56:37
Thanks Lon. I suspect almost any NOS 5U4G will be an improvement over the stock Rubys. Someone even recommended and suggested the $20 Winged "C" (SED) 5U4G would provide a big improvement.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 07/24/12 at 01:17:50
I agree with Lon's assessment. I have some RCAs that look just like these, and they are the darkest of my Rectifiers, of which I have many. Last I listened, these were also my least favorite, though I should try them again.

I tend to like the inner detail and spaciousness from the tall bottle 5U4G-B shape. May be coincidence, but all that I have share this quality in different ways. And there is something about those 40s and 50s tubes too, though I really like some later ones as well.

So if these are a little dark, you might check ebay for some tall bottles. Haven't checked lately, but I bought a bunch over time very inexpensively. And actually, the Rectifier for me seems to be a primary rolling tube these days for fine tuning.

Lately I am enjoying some 50s Svetlana Winged C 5U4G-STs, tubes I did not like at first, even after quite a few hours of burnin. I think it is synergy with the set I am using, but also, I think mine were actually new tubes and they took a while to clarify and balance (I guess 70-80 hours).

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Hipfan on 07/24/12 at 01:43:04
Thanks for sharing will. I'm not looking for dark (just came from there). I'm looking for something to take a bit of the edge off. The amp has around 500 hours on it. Stock tubes, except for Treasures and it has the VCAPS.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 07/24/12 at 04:46:07
Seems like you are over the edge on the Treasure burnin, and maybe over the hard part of the Vcaps by most reports, but I think a range of 5U4Gs is not a bad idea, broken in caps or not. But then I am a tube roller.

A lot of tubes will soften the edge a bit. Guessing the RCAs you have are doing that??? Question being, is it too far for your tastes...too dark and/or too much density? Do you like them, or how would you change them if you could?

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Hipfan on 07/25/12 at 18:48:04
I'm not really interested in tube rolling at the present time, however I do want to swap out the stock Rubys. The RCA's appear to be most popular, so I'm just trying to decide on which model/vintage and a recommended place to buy.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 07/25/12 at 19:44:18
So do you own those RCA's pictured?

Or if you don't have the RCA reference, would less edgy than the Rubys be your only criteria... Like would you prefer warmth, or neutrality...Some Raytheon and Tungsols have some really nice smooth, warmth without detail sacrifice.

My idea of "warmth" is having a darker thing happening compared to "neutral" but with natural and smooth detail to allow an inner spaciousness and texture. Warm feeling without leaving a sense of dark/restricted/ closed.

I am listening to Ruby's now with some quite warm early 60's Amperex 6922 SQs, and it sounds great to me, the Ruby's bringing in some nice openness to these inputs that tend a little to heavy warmth for me.

I don't have any typical tall bottle RCA's, but have found tall bottles less dark/more open than short. It is possible this is based somewhat on the coincidence of the individual tubes I have, but I definitely see this pattern in my rectifiers. The tall RCA 5U4GB's I do have, I believe may be from the early 50s. They are extra tall with the internals are like RCA 5U4G-STs. These tubes are open, extended, smooth, and have a lot of finesse. They are on the brighter side of the range, but not as bright seeming as the Ruby...being notably smoother with this tube set.

I see no reason to pay high for rectifiers if you can find what you want on Ebay. And if the tubes test good and match, I don't care if they are NOS, in fact being glad to have them broken in. I do look carefully to see that they are the same construction...same getters, bottles, plates...etc.

Anyway, if you give me a good description of how you would change the Ruby, I can suggest some tubes that I think would go there.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Hipfan on 07/25/12 at 21:19:21
Sorry...no. They were available, so I was looking for input.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 07/25/12 at 21:31:17
Got you. Sorry I wrote more as you responded, check the above post.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Hipfan on 07/25/12 at 21:53:44
Something along these lines...

"My idea of "warmth" is having a darker thing happening compared to "neutral" but with natural and smooth detail to allow an inner spaciousness and texture. Warm feeling without leaving a sense of dark/restricted/ closed".

I just moved from a vintage Scott 299, which is quite dark. The Torii is quite different and I am learning to love it with each play. That being said, I listen to quite a bit of classic rock and find the amp to be a bit bright at volume for those types of recordings, so I guess I'm looking for a bit of warmth. I'm not interested in tube rolling at the moment, but would like to replace the Rubys and let the amp continue to break-in...if that makes sense.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 07/25/12 at 23:50:14
Being cheap, and offering different tonal characters, I think you might do well to pick up both of these. They are not exactly like the tubes I have but quite close in construction and the same companies. I suspect (hopefully!@#$%^&*) close enough to anticipate similar sound. I think the Raytheon will be warm but rich, and the Sylvania more open like the Ruby, but more refined....a bit warmer, richer, and smoother. The 3rd link, the Tungsol is closer to the Raytheon, on the warmer side, another good looking tube.

My system/room and ears, and synergy between tubes is real and can create some anomalies, but I think these will chill down the edge you are experiencing.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 07/25/12 at 23:53:39
Then of course there are the RCA 5U4G-STs...smoother than the Rubys, but I think 5U4GBs are worth a try and won't break the bank.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Hipfan on 07/26/12 at 00:42:09
Thanks for taking the time will. I'm familiar with all 3 auctions. I've been hunting and just trying to decide which way to go and your feedback is a great help. It's a fun and interesting hobby. I'm learning quickly that the same model tube can sound completely different in the same model amp, depending on tube mix, listening room, etc, etc, etc. I'm starting to understand why people tube roll. It's about experimenting and finding the mix/combination that is to one's liking. Cheers

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 07/26/12 at 03:32:46
Yes I think that is the tube rolling thing...it gives you a way to fine-tune to your tastes within the givens of your system/room.

But I think there is comparative reality. If we both have MK IIIs...then comparing the nature of one particular tube within one tube type, with another tube of the same type...you can get relatively clear about the attributes of those tubes, and how the tube's characters compare. That is if you keep a baseline of all other tubes, adjustments and the rest being left the same during the comparison.

I hope you find something that sounds good to you. It is a lot of fun!

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Hipfan on 07/28/12 at 17:53:48
I picked up a set of the Sylvania 5U4GB's. I found a set of the RCA 5U4G-ST for a good price. The guy also had a set of the GE 5U4G-ST. How does the GE compare to the other brands, sonically speaking?

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 07/28/12 at 18:03:52
I haven't compared GE in that tube type. I have GE 5Y3GT and OA3 tubes, and they have a muscular, slightly recessed high frequency sound, less open than RCA and Sylvania that I have to compare in those types.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 07/28/12 at 21:49:39
Hipfan, I hope the Sylvainias do what you wanted. The reason I recommended getting both those and the Raytheon was that they were both cheap, and also nice revealing tubes...the Sylvania in the direction you wanted, but likely closer to the Ruby, and the Raytheon further tending to the warm. And since semantics a is a wildcard (as well as vintage and construction of the tubes), between them I figured you would likely get a fit, while having good tubes of different character you could roll if you get into that.

The ST thing is tricky, and I have not researched the real story, but I think a lot of them are made by the same people with different labels. What I find is that plate width (the inner T-part of the plate the wires goes through can be wider or narrower), whether they have an additional pair wires between the plates...and perhaps mica shape..These appear to indicate vintage, but most importantly, variations in sound.

All my STs have ribbed black plates, and I am guessing some are made by RCA (labeled Westinghouse and RCA), and one pair with the additional internal wires (labelled Raytheon and Sylvania) made by Sylvania or Raytheon???? or are they just earlier vintage RCAs????.

For mine the getter difference seems to have less sound effect than plate/mica combo...which I can't differentiate since mine have matched plate and mica structures for each of the pairs, and each pair is different from the others.

With one pair, the one with additional, central internal wires, and with medium width central part of the plate T, and with round top mica (no spurs), is the most open...closest to the Ruby sound but I think smoother. The pair with a thinner internal T part of the plates, and with round top mica with spurs, is in the middle sound-wise. And the widest central plate T (where the T "base" extends past the vertical wires that go up the plates) and with rectangular/spurred top mica, are the most liquid/warm. I can't say one is better than another, just different.

The one thing I would do, is be sure the tubes you choose are identical in structure.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Hipfan on 07/29/12 at 00:05:55
The seller also had a pair of Raytheon 5U4GB's which he threw in for $13, so I will roll these pairs, to see how I like them, before I pickup the RCA 5U4G-ST's.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 07/29/12 at 02:36:39
Ah, soon you will be swapping tubes!

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 07/29/12 at 04:05:57
I am glad you got hold of the Raytheons too. Better chances of finding synergy with two choices. Looking forward to your impressions. Lucky for us, the MkIII's adjustment switches and knobs make fine tuning to a tube easy.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Hipfan on 08/16/12 at 01:01:24
Finally home from vacation and my tubes were here when I arrived. This is my first time tube rolling and I have a question. The stock Rubys have 4 pins. The Sylvania's have 8 pins and the Raytheon's have 5 pins. Is there a reason for this?

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 08/16/12 at 04:55:55
I don't know the answer to your question. Of my 5U4G-ST and 5U4GB, by far most have 5 pins. My ruby's have 4 like yours. And my current fav, some 60's Sylvania 5U4GB have 8. I have some 50's and 70's Sylvanias with 5.

Got me. Maybe someone can tell us why the variation.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lord Soth on 08/17/12 at 17:31:45
Hi Hipfan and Will,

For those rectifiers with all 8 pins, not every pin is "active" and in actual electrical use.The tube manufacturers came out with 4 pins and 5 pins etc as a cost-cutting measure.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 08/17/12 at 22:19:10
Thanks for filling this in. I figured maybe the extra pins were for added stability or something.....

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by JD on 08/24/12 at 15:57:48
my opinion so far; tesla nos and new 6922 last place.. slightly dull but tolerableelectro harmonix 6922 (shipped w)..clear concise, little thinner than thephillips ECG6922 .. great tubes lots of color and full soundtelefunken 7dj8's nos.. my fav. tight, clear, deep sound...very German precise and on point... very detailed. of course they were also the most expensivethis is fun ;D

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 08/27/12 at 22:27:26
I think it is fun too. Tuning the system to our personal pleasure!

One thing I have noticed is that there are so many years and models of tubes from a given company, that though they do seem to tend toward general characteristic qualities, they are quite variable within that. For example, I have a pair of early 60s Telsa 6922 that sound really good to me, open and detailed but also rich, and some from the 70s I really can't get excited about.

And Phillips tubes for example, they may be made at different factories in different countries. Then there are Zaerix that are made by the big companies for Zaerix, sometimes England, Holland, Russia....whatever.

Since you like the Telefunken 7DJ8, I suspect you will like other 7DJ8s too. I think they really work well with the Torii. I must have 7 or 8 pair (including some Telefunkens) and I like them all...real, textural, and big without being too pushy. The Telefunkens are probably the most edge defined, or precise as you put it...perhaps a bit too much so for me depending on what tubes they are with. But now, with some big, warm and articulate 60s Sylvania 5U4GBs, and some warmish Amperex OA3s, they sound very good. All 7DJ8s I have excel at that indescribable "in the room" quality.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Seshep on 09/06/12 at 12:40:36
Hi I'm new to the forum and in need of some help. I've had my Torii for a few months now. I recently tried the RCA 5U4GB tall bottle as talked about on this thread. The thing is the base of the tube is too wide and the screws that hold the socket in place on the amp prevent it from completely seating and so the tubes don come on. Has anyone had this issue and what can be done about it? Thanks.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 09/06/12 at 14:03:17
I think the easiest solution would be to gently notch out the plastic edges of the base by the screws. This had been done (not by me) on a rectifier in my Select amp years ago.Allowed the tube to seat and connect.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 09/06/12 at 15:38:42
I think most of my rectifiers rest on the screws to various degrees and work...including the stock Rubys. Since the contacts in the sockets start working pretty soon after you start the pins into the socket (I just pulled the Sylvania 5U4GB I am using out so you could see a good 1/8-3/16" of the pins from the side, and they worked) I am wondering if your issue is something else.

Not knowing how familiar you are with tubes....I guess the RCAs have the socket guides intact? Do the soldered pin tips look smooth and without cracks? Have you cleaned the pins? A couple thoughts.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by tgarden on 09/06/12 at 16:55:57
I noticed the same issue with the Torii III I purchased last year.

The NOS 1940's and 50's RCA & Tungsol 5U4G's I use, rested on top of the two screws holding the tube sockets to the top of the amp.

It's an easy fix using a Dremel tool or round file to make two small notches in the base of the tubes. Just take your time.

I did this 3500 hours ago, and it's worked out fine. The tubes now contact the tube sockets completely.

Mike in Seattle area

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Seshep on 09/06/12 at 21:27:17
Thanks guys for the suggestions. I got the tubes from a reputable dealer (tc tubes) I'll check to see if there maybe a problem with the tubes because I don't know if it should be able to come on 98% seated. If the tubes are fine, I may have to shave the edges.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by JD on 09/06/12 at 23:27:47
Yeah I concur with Will. I'm using some nos rca and although they rest on the screws the sound is complete.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by JD on 10/27/12 at 16:24:07
As a result of having to change my el34's from jj's to some cryo'd mullards i wasn't crazy how my telefunken 7dj8's sounded with them. Too bright and up front. Changed to a pair of national's 7dj8's also cryo'd and the sound is off the charts...always a good thing to have tubes to roll. I'm becoming fascinated with tube interaction, the synergy or lack of between them. This is the first time I've had cyro'd tubes in the power and input positions and wonder how much it helps cuz it sounds so damn good.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 10/27/12 at 17:31:56
I have only checked one tube...JJ6CA7 cryo'd and not, and the cryo did help ...more open clarity, more space, more black, better dynamics...the lot. But then I believe Ron at Cryoset asks for tubes from JJ at a certain high standard...this probably helps too...I am guessing that those Mullards with the Nationals synergy for you is just good, and they would sound good not cryo'd. But with cryo, you are pulling more from the tubes than without. When I was testing the JJs, after getting used to non-cryo'd, which sounded quite good, and switching to the Cryo...if I recall correctly, the difference was pretty notable, and to my tastes better, but may not be better to all...the non-cryo tubes were softer and fuzzier by a little, perhaps more tolerant...less defined.

I agree it is good to have tubes to roll. I never got the Telefunken 7DJ8s I have to really click in except with a fair bit of work at tube synergy. I find them a little demanding in this way.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 10/27/12 at 17:34:45
PS: those JJs...both sets had lots of hours on them before I compared. Can't recall how many, but I remember thinking the JJ6CA7 need 200-250 to come in.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 10/27/12 at 18:08:28
I'll have to try the cryo'd JJs next time. Really a fan of these 6CA7s. I ahve one more pair in reserve that probably won't go into one of my Toriis for six months or so.

I do find cryo'd tubes to exhibit benefits, it's as if their best qualities are a bit more dialed in. I've used input tubes, rectifier and power tubes in cryo'd form.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by JD on 11/03/12 at 02:55:01
i agree i think with the right tubes the telefunken 7dj8's would be benign. i need to come to the realization that any tube needs time... a lot of time. patience is a virtue i have yet to attain. I freakin love the cryo'd set of input (nationals 7dj8) and power tubes(mullard el34) with raytheon ob3a recs, stock oa3's with nos rca's. found something special that i'm gonna try to stick with...ha ha

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 11/03/12 at 03:06:40
JD,

Sounds like a very good very good place to hang. I have the rest of the tubes you use, so can imagine that your sound is really good, but I have never gone there on the Mullard EL34...so I wonder if you would give us your impressions of the cryo'd Mullards compared to the JJ6CA7???

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by JD on 11/03/12 at 16:36:57
Will,

Had no inclination of taking out the jj6ca7's until I had a volume issue in one channel(that Lon helped me fix), loved the sound. When I had first tried out the cryo'd mullards a couple months ago they seemed way too harsh for me with my telefunken 7dj8's and took them out after a few hours (10). With no other option but my mullards i put them in and they still seemed a little harsh. I switched to the national's and the sound was tremendous out of the gate, only thing i adjusted on the torii was the treble...now 50+ hours in it's sensational. I just listened to the new Iris DeMent, Bob Dylan and Van Morrison cd's first with another set of jj 6ca7's and then with my mullards. I can unequivocally say that it's the Mullards hands down. The instruments are clearer, from the vibration of the cymbals to the guitar riffs, a much fuller and complete sound. I can feel the emotion in the artists voice, the painful truth in Iris, the gruffness of Bob and the beautiful arrangements of Van's tunes.Everything seems to float yet stay tethered to the original representation meant by the artist...as Steve said in his description of the Torii you don't listen to the music you float in it...I am truly getting that!I think the cryo'd synergy between the two really helps as well.just my two cents.

jd

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 11/03/12 at 20:41:23
Thanks JD. Synergy between tubes, or lack there of, is an amazing thing. The JJs in my room do tend to do pretty well with upfront, more defined midrange inputs like the Telefunken 7DJ8. And the Nationals do seem to have good balance, and good textural warmth with nice detail balance too. So what you are hearing makes sense to me. Sounds like a really engaging sound! Isn't it awesome....Thanks for the thoughts on the Mullards with the Nationals.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 11/07/12 at 14:37:44
Drat, lost one of my beloved 'fifties RCA 5U5G rectifiers in the Torii, mainly I think because that socket seems to have issues. So I popped in a pair of Sylvanias that are very good . . . but not quite the same.

Poop. At some point I have to send the amp back to have it looked at. But I can't bear to part with it! And I no longer have an extra Decware amp to pop into my second system while the Mk II would be in my main system and the Mk III on the way to Decware, at Decware and on the way back.

Poop.

:)

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 11/07/12 at 15:27:25
Sorry about losing one of your favs.

What are you thinking is wrong with the socket?

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 11/07/12 at 15:31:25
I lose power to the socket, have to jiggle to find a connection, which is harder and harder. I leave it on as long as I can as each time I have to power up it gets a bit more difficult. I really need to send it back, though I may look for a local repairperson.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 11/07/12 at 15:43:17
Have you tried cleaning the sockets?

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 11/07/12 at 15:53:56
Yes. It's not that.

I spoke too quickly, the rectifier is not gone. I just won't light up on either side of the Torii. It will light up in the CSP2 in my second system. It's mate works on either side of the Torii. I think it's because the lip of the base of the tube hits the mounting screws and this one is not going down deep enough to make the connection below, which is problematic on this side in comparison to the others. I'm sure it's a simple fix for the amp.

The rectifiers in now are fine. Just love the sound of the other pair. Can use them in the Mk II.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 11/07/12 at 20:10:36
I guess you checked that the socket's springy tube pin grabbers are all the right shape too...like with a magnifying glass???

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 11/07/12 at 20:23:55
missed the last edit to your post, but this theory is sounding better considering this latest realization.

It could easily be that the pin grabbers being a little skewed/stretched, in concert with the particular problem tube pin(s) being a little skewed that the connection is too weak.

I can have a rectifier sticking out of the socket the screw height plus about 3/16 above the screw and still have the rectifier fire up and work.

One thing I do periodically is put deoxit the the pins and wiggle them slowly in, and wiggle them slowly out a number of times. Then perhaps spray on more deoxit and repeating if there is a problem as bad as yours...This repeatedly spreads the deoxit around while creating cleaning friction, AND flexing the pin grabbers with deoxit on them...softening/cleaning any crud that might be making the pin grabbers too rigid or too open....

Finally I like to wiggle deoxit gold into it once the socket is clean, making the connection better and less inclined to get worse again.

That tube won't work in the Torii Mk II either, which does not have a wonky socket, but will work in the CSP2, which has a socket that sticks out above the top plate.

Anyway, I'll get to the bottom of it eventually.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Fireblade on 11/07/12 at 20:50:26
I'm sorry to learn about your MkIII's faulty rectifier/socket, Lon. Hope you get it fixed in no time.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 11/07/12 at 20:53:40
Thanks. I'm actually going to postpone getting it fixed for as long as I can. I can't do without the amp right now, and I don't have an extra amp on hand, and I have a new ZP3 on the way to me in weeks. I'll get around to it.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 11/07/12 at 20:58:09
That the tube works in the CSP could be more things than specifically the depth in the socket....It could be that getting the tube deeper in the socket works because of some issue with a tube pin itself, where the skewed (or loose) pin finally makes contact at depth. Since the tube worked for months in the MkIII implies that either the tube, or the socket, or both have changed.

This is what made me think of thorough socket treatment, cleaning and loosening the pin grabbers, as a good first step.

But, if the Sylvanias went in and worked without giggling, the sockets could possibly be fine. If so, I bet you can pull a tube up a good 1/8 above the screws and still have them work.

I wonder if the offending RCA has a slightly loose pin???? I had one like this once and gently straightened it, then pushed in some super glue, in and around the pin/plastic connection, and it has worked fine ever since...

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 11/07/12 at 21:04:56
The Sylvania works, but I have to move the tube around to get a connection. The other tube could well have a loose pin (doesn't seem so to the touch) after months of jiggling.

It's time for an expert to look at it all but I'm not ready to part with it yet.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by will on 11/08/12 at 00:12:42
Though it could be a solder joint, I think this is less likely than a socket connection issue. If I recall correctly, the socket connectors actually sort of float a little in the socket...the bottom of the connecter is not totally rigid in the socket giving the whole thing a little play from below. Then the solder itself is rigid, but the other side of the solder joint tends to be either flexible wires, resistor wires, or cap wires... the lack of rigidity on the front and back of the solder joint makes breaking the joint sort of hard.

Also, your CSP is your newest component, right...Brand new sockets?

I would call Steve and ask, but I still suspect excess grundge somewhere in the the pin/socket connection (either keeping the socket grabbers apart a little, or contributing to a bad direct contact), or a misalignment of the socket grabbers from bending (which could maybe be bent back) or some combination.

In a music town like Austen it would seem there is likely a good tube amp guy somewhere...isn't there. Maybe someone who knows how to safely drain the current off the amp, and thoroughly clean/inspect the sockets. And maybe having a look to check solder joints if the cleaning does not fix it. Then if skilled, and using the same solder Steve does....a little solder fix it pretty simple. Or you could choose to send it to Steve if this were the case and you were not comfortable with the local guy.

I have done the thorough cleaning thing when something like this happened, but don't want to go into how to drain the current from the amp online.

Anyway, just wondering if a local guy might not be able to fix it while you wait.

Title: Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Post by Lon on 11/08/12 at 00:24:00
I have a brand new CSP2+ but I was using the CSP2 in my second system to check which is easier to get to and is older than my Toriis.

Seems less a socket connection to me.

I know how to drain the current etc. I just don't want to do it, and I don't want to interrupt the music, especially with the ZP3 nearly on its way to me. My Torii runs about 16 hours a day, so lately I leave it on for three or so days at a time.

I did know a great stereo guy who retired, that's my dilemma, I could try someone new, or send it to Steve and also have the bass knobs added. I'd rather do the latter, in the future, and I think I can get along for some time this way. I've done so for six moths or so.