Figuring Out the Cause of all of These TJ’s

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on March 19, 2014

Listened to a very interesting Kruk segment on KNBR this morning about his take on what is causing all of these elbow injuries to pitchers. I had always attributed it to young pitchers playing year round and never giving their arm a break. Slowly, attrition on the elbow is inevitable.

But Krukow offered a different explanation that seemed quite plausible. He said that when he was a kid, pitchers threw like 2 pitches— fastball and curveball. Bruce Sutter (Kruk’s name, I’m sure it was someone else) introduced the split finger fastball and that pitch became quite popular. And Greg Maddux, among others, popularized the change up and cutter.

Kruk said that all of these new pitches, over the years, are responsible for too much stress on the elbow region because the pitcher has to speed up their arm speed to properly throw them.

Anyway, it made sense to me. And if that’s truly the cause, I’m not sure there’s a way to fix this unless they stop throwing the pitches. Right?

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On another note, if you are supportive of Bryan Stow, check out how this tragedy has affected Tim Flannery. Powerful 5 minute video. “Live Riveted”. It’s great advice.

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It seemed like there was an arms race of sorts (no pun intended), with lots of batters from the 1980s-2000s juicing up, pitchers had to “up their game” to get these guys out. A pitcher NEEDED all those pitches. And now, the young pitchers who can be major league-ready in a hurry are getting the big media attention. Strausburg and Harvey are cases of these young guys blowing people’s minds with their pitching “stuff,” but blowing their arms out in the process.
All pitchers are going to want to do everything they can to get to the “bigs” and get some of that “Bumgarner money.” 🙂 🙂

Awesome. I know a number of Flappers really could care less about ST ball, but this video does a nice job of encapsulating exactly why I love to go down to Scottsdale every year (that and it is a short break doing something with my daughter about which we are passionate). Thanks for sharing, Flav. Love it. GO GIANTS!

San Dawg, you’re pretty rough on ol’ Kuiper. 🙂
Actually, my wife would fully agree with you. She thinks he has kind of a “Debbie Downer” voice and personality, to reference the Saturday Night Live character. I don’t really hear it in the same way, but I do agree Kuiper seems to come to life more doing radio. The non-stop narrative of doing radio play-by-play seems to enliven him more. With Krukow, on TV, he kind of slides into more of a kick-back mode. And, of course, on the post-game rap, he goes completely comatose.

Post-game, Kuiper may be comatose, but he still eats and drinks while he’s doing it. Really unprofessional — I don’t need to hear lip smacking and soda pop sucking while discussing Pagan’s effort in legging out a triple…

Personally, I think Kuip has one of the best HR calls of all time……..
Regarding Vogelsong, it’s time to fire off the alarms. Three starts and he’s sucked. 15 innings, 25 hits? They’re hitting .362 off him.
He does have 10K’s to 2 bb’s. Still, the balls that are going through the zone are getting punished and he’s running out of time to get right again……..

Regarding Voggy, he’s got two more ST starts to figure something out. If he doesn’t, how long do the Giants go with him into the season hoping he can right the ship? I say he should have a short leash of 4, maybe 5 starts, tops. If he’s still struggling like a Zito clone at the end of that, they’ll have to make a decision. This division is too competitive to have Voggy limp through half a season…

Sliders are the most strain put on a pitchers arm causing the most injuries IMO. Probably why Romo is just getting lit at times this Spring,as he experience with other pitches.
Just pray his main pitch the slider, and his arm hold out for the season with his frail body takin abuse.

Kruk and Kuip are worlds better than 80% of the other announcers out there. Yeah, they get tiresome and tedious at times, but Christ, they’ve been together for YEARS. How many stories are out there that they can go to?

And part of the problem is the wealth of announcers that have rolled through here. Hodges and Simmons, Greenwald, Bill King, Wayne Walker, the last Niner guys who’s name I can’t recall . . .

Eric Davis got an NFL network gig, didn’t he? I may not be remembering that right. I hardly ever watch the NFL or the NBA networks. I watch the MLB network way more than those other two. The NFL and NBA networks need to jazz up their presentations or something.

I like both Kruk and Kuip. They can get a bit too homery, but agree with Charlie…they’re better’n 80% of the other announcers out there. And agree with earlier posts…love Kuip’s HR call. There is one from last year (maybe two years ago)…extra inning game….cannot recall who hit the bomb, but he did his usual “he hits it high…he hits it deep…that ball is outta here, and we are GOING HOME!” Love that call.

I know it is only ST ball, but I am alarmed by Vogey’s past couple of starts. snarkk – not sure Escobar is the immediate “Plan B.” He was just optioned to AAA camp. He will probably be back up, but who knows when. But neither he or Petit’s ST numbers are anything to make you stand-up and take notice.

I was telling my friend Mike this is exactly why I was SO PISSED that the Giants did not add another arm with ML experience as a potential 5th. A short leash is certainly in order…agree with snarkk…4-5 starts, MAX.

RE: the mini Flapalooza. I am interested. Just keep us posted on the date, or is it already locked-and-loaded on 4/25? And if this does go down, I think we definitely need to plan a major Flapalooza for later in the year, and inquire about getting the Hack Man to join us.

Yep, Chi. There were some of us here anyway that did not want Voggy back under any circumstances, and did not understand his getting cut, paid off for the non-exercised option, then re-signed for the guaranteed $5M. ST is still ST, but so far, he’s done nothing to change my opinion that he’s done…

We all recognize the folly of putting much stock in ST stats, then go out and put too much stock in them. Vogelsong’s last start was plug ugly but it was just a continuation of last year’s train wreck. On the other of the spectrum, I’d be very wary of Hicks’ numbers.

Agree regarding Kuip having one of the best HR calls in the game…The “this game is over” on the walk off’s is Hall of Fame worthy IMO…I also agree with Zumie that some of their best work is done when they discuss the action in the stands….They actually have toned it down some over the years. I remember in the late 90’s when they would pick on fat, shirtless guys eating in the stands at the Stick…Kuiper had a little bit of Don Rickles in him, that would leave me doing the proverbial horse laugh…I think with the advent of cell phones, they couldn’t pick on people as much without getting called out for it, by relatives and friends of the unsuspecting victims…By the way, what ever happened to the moose man? He used to sit in the right field arcade at the Stick…That guy got more camera time than Bonds.

I dig Flemmimg as well…I just have a hard time taking him serious because of his age. I think it was Twin that said, he needs to age some, so he can actually have some stories to tell…I couldn’t agree more.

Of course I remember being surprised at how young Jon Miller was when he joined the Giants…Having seen him on the ESPN telecasts, I thought that he was in his early sixties…I think he was like 45 when he came home to San Francisco.

Kruk and Kuip don’t bother me much, sometimes I zone them out but sometimes I zone out when I’m at a game. I’m not a big fan of Flemming, couldn’t/can’t stand Ted Robinson and even though Miller is very good, my favorite is still Hank Greenwald.

I couldn’t stand Ted Robinson either. He used to have this annoying way of annuciating certain words. Something about the way he would put too much emphasis on certain words, always rubbed me the wrong way…Agree about Hank…I still dream about falling asleep to his voice calling Giant games late into the night.

I think that Ted is one of the very best in any sport he does. The worst? Angel ( sorry, Chuck), Papa ( except when he did basketball). Best studio host-Barry Tomkins. Worst studio analyst- no contest, Estes. Kruk and Kuip- comfy. The absolute best ever here- Bill King.

Well I’m one of the one that thinks Vogs is done, and he’s proving it this spring.
He can spin it like a lot pitchers, that I’m feeling good and just need to fine tune my mechanics (well he’s missing a spark plug or 2,and about to seize the engine with no oil,and he’s definitely running on fumes)
Bochy has to see some life support out of him soon, or find another 5th starter or start drinking a 5th..

Hard to believe, but Fleming has 10 years under his belt with Log Gigantes. (He started in 2004). Yeah, Miller was around 45 or 46 when he came back to the Giants in 1997. Never was a big Ted Robinson fan either, Clown. Greenwald was good, but I’d take Miller any day.

Chi-Many people would agree with you on Miller over Hank and he is very good, but Hank’s style just fit me better. I don’t know if this is still true, but for awhile Hank was working A’s games while the Giants had some numb nuts from Oaktown (don’t remember his name), that was just wrong, man.

John – Don’t get me wrong…Greenwald is up there with my all-time favorite Giant announcers. But I would take Miller over him. I admire and have much respect for both of them. Was it Ron Fairly that the Giants had calling games for a while? Whoever it was…they sucked balls, big time.

Fairly was the play-by-play guy during the ’87 and ’88 seasons, when Greenwald was gone for a couple of seasons. Fairly was just terribly mediocre. He was awful to endure after having great ones there before him.

I rate the Giants broadcasts teams very high, but I’ve come to like a few of the other broadcast teams around the majors, too. I like the Mets crew; I can’t think of the play-by-play guy’s name, he does a very good job. And Darling and Hernandez are solid analyst guys. I might be practically alone on this around here, but I like Hawk Harrelson on the White Sox games. I’m generally not a fan of big “homer” broadcasters, but for some reason I find him interesting as a broadcaster. And Steve Stone does solid work as analyst.
My least favorite are the Yankees and Red Sox broadcasters. That Yankees guy and his “See ya!” homerun call can take a hike. And his little vomitous cutesy individual homerun calls are awfull. Texeria “sends a Tex message!” Seriously, that broadcaster really sucks, but the Yankee fans are too busy sniffing Jeter’s jockstrap to notice. And the Red Sox crew, well, Jerry Remy is horrible, but there’s no reason heaping anything on him anymore, now that his son was arrested for brutally murdering a woman. Remy seemed like a broken man in the last interview I saw with him. Who knows when he’ll get back to broadcasting.

Gary Cohen is the Mets play-by-play guy, and yes, he does a fine job. He also does hoops for Seton Hall, and will be calling all four NCAA games from Buffalo on radio tomorrow.

As for the Yanks, that was two different announcers you referred to, both an abhorrent listen. Michael Kay is the annoying “See ya!” guy who does the TV games, and John Sterling is the even more annoying one with the “little vomitous cutesy individual homerun calls” on the radio.

Hank Greenwald bored me to tears, sorry. His announcing style seemed to me too clinical, even his storytelling efforts, which some folks seemed to really like. His son sounds similarly boring, unfortunately. Lon was and always will be my favorite with that great sense of dry humor, and he called the games objectively. If the Giants stunk, he said so. Miller next, though he’s IMO technically better at PbP than Lon ever was. The one year Lon and Al Michaels worked Giants radio 1976, was baseball radio heaven, to me. The team was crap, but the broadcasts were gold. I have no idea if/how they got along with mike off, but on air, they were great. I don’t have one all time least favorite. Art Eckman, Wayne Hagin, Ron Fairly and David Glass are all in the running. Might be the same guy. Though David Glass has actually been mayor of Petaluma for quite a while. And, Lindsay Nelson never fit, too East Coast or something. McCarver on TV that one year? Blech. Here’s a comprehensive list of Gyros’ announcers:http://bayarearadio.org/sports/giants/

Thanks for the link; it’s very cool to see that list. I didn’t realize how close I came to hearing Hodges on a broadcast, but barely missed him. He was scheduled to do occasional broadcasts during the ’71 season, but died suddenly near the beginning of the season.

I loved Greenwald mainly because I still liked listening even though 80% of the games he broadcast were nightmares. Michaels was great back then. There’s an old pic of Michaels and Simmons in some SF eatery after a game. They got laughs showing it last year I think.

Lon grew agitating as hell as he got older as would describe something so long, you had no idea what the hell was going on. He’s talking about some shit, and you can hear the crowd going nuts in the background. Miller does that sometimes as well. Gets too wordy for his own good. But Miller is top notch.

I was real happy for Lon that he was the 49er broadcaster to call the ’88 season. He got to experience that amazing season. And, of course, his call of the famous Steve Young run that season against the Vikings is one of the great calls of all time. Not so much the words themselves, but the emotion in his voice. Lon would get so excited, and the voice would start to crack and crumble, and it was just so genuine and heart-felt sounding.

Stram had it called right early in the final drive. He called out Dallas playing 7 Dbacks, and Walsh running against it to force the Dbacks to make a tackle. Good line blocking. Lenville Elliot doing it, sheezus. Every pass except the final TD to Clark was closely contested, Joe threw it on the money, or he missed entirely with no chance for a pick. What a game, what a moment in time. Classic. Hell, even Jim Tunney was the umpire. Would I take Walsh over the current coaches despite them going to 3 title games in a row? In a heartbeat. I didn’t see any TOs necessary in that final drive to get the play calls right. Play called in, huddle up, get to the line, do the play. Why is it so hard now?…

I grew up with Lon Simmons and Hank Greenwald. Like Chuck and Bozo, I liked Greenwald because if the games were shit (and they often were), Greenwald’s wry sense of understated humor, which often was sarcastic and biting, was worth listening to. I am not exactly certain why the Giants and him parted, but I heard that the Giants brass got tired of him criticizing the team. If this is the case, tough cheese – they sucked and he rightly said so (again, in his understated way) when they frequently were face planted by other teams. Meh.

I also like Miller, Kuip, and Kruk, albeit, not nearly as much as Hank and Lon. Also agree with many of you who’ve said we have had some very, very good announcing teams on both sides of the bay. For my money, the best announcer in basketball and football is Bill King. No one can convince me otherwise (especially, in basketball). Dude had a steel trap mind and his words were like a Mozart symphony.

Vogs is done in my opinion. I went back and forth on him during the off season. I absolutely didn’t want him when the hot stove season started, then was ok with the signing at the end of the hot stove season. Now, I want him gone. Two starts max in the regular season to prove himself. The Giants brass shouldn’t tell him this or the anxiety will get to him, but after two consecutive shitty starts, they should release him or send him down on some mystery DL minor league assignment. I hope the check book is open after the All Star break – I suspect we will need ownership to add reinforcements if the Giants are floundering . . .

Yeah Steve – there were a number of us who didn’t want Voggy back and stated this back then and on this thread. I think he is done, too. Hoping Escobar catches fire in minor league camp. He struggled a bit in Scottsdale, but had flashes of looking really good. He started the game my daughter and I saw against the Bums at Camelback Mountain (Bum’s yard). Had a rough first inning, but then settled down and look pretty damned good.

Either he or Petit are going to have to be ready…I don’t see them making a move for a 5th if Voggy flounders…it will be Petit (who has had his own issues in camp) or Escobar.

Yes, that would be awesome if Escobar could perform in case Voggy does a face plant this season. I just hope the Giants don’t give him a long leash. Voggy should be released or sent to the minors after 2 games of futility in my opinion.

Yes, I left out that part about being in the hunt . . . Good point. Sabes will not spin his wheels for additional players if they Giants are floundering at mid-season. It didn’t make sense last year and certainly doesn’t this season. By the by, if this roster goes belly up, that’s it for the 2012 “WS Team.” I expect wholesale changes in 2015, if this team doesn’t do squat. I will be pissed otherwise . . .

I could talk/blog about announcers all day. Lots of great posts by you guys on the topic. Yeah, I laid it on a little thick about Kuip. I don’t think he’s terrible or anything like that, but he comes across to me as way less prepared than Miller or Flem, and the humorous bits he does with Kruk (Ugly Finder, Pop-Up Dance etc..) irritate me. I thought Greenwald and Simmons were both pretty good. I really like Miller and Flem is my favorite. I think Steve Blass does a great job for the Pirates and I actually don’t mind the D-backs guys.

…and add me to the list of people totally down with ripping up Bum’s contract. It would be a classy move and I think it is just the right thing to do. Has there been any media hype about how underpaid he is? If not, its only a matter of time before that starts being a hot topic. The Giants would be smart to get out in front of that.

I just don’t see it happening this year. I mean seriously, the guy is ONE year into a five year deal. As I mentioned earlier, there are incentives, options…it’s not like a lot of thought wasn’t put into the contract, and Bum and his agent signed it. I say after three years in (after the 2015 season) you consider a new deal. And maybe after this year at the absolute earliest (this if he is top 3 in the running for the Cy). Just my thoughts.

Bummie’s fine. He just signed the deal, and he’s set for a while. He ain’t complaining anyway. No need to do anything for a couple years. He signed the deal with his eyes (and nostrils) open.

As far as Kuip goes, he did miss a lot of shit last year that he never did before. It seems as if he’s mailing it in a little. I don’t mind that much. Overall they are solid. I mean I dreaded the playoffs because my cable and radio were like 20 seconds off so I couldn’t turn Fox down and listen to the radio.

Agreed. Kuip and Miller have been making little mistakes the last season or so. Wrong names, flubbing the calls, a little lost once in a while, etc. Small, but noticeable. Still fine, though, I’m not pining for the return of Joe Angel…

I know this is football, but zumiee started it. 😉
I don’t really care about Kansas City football, but this is some classic stuff right here, outta Super Bowl IV. Hank Stramm was a bit of a preener, but the dude knew his football, and this is hilarious. Harbs should take a lesson in sideline behavior…

Hank Stram would steal the milk money from his own mom!He was sly as a fox, yet always the motivaitor the way he works the refs, and line judges, and chain markers, to get a call, or extra foot on the spot to keep the chains moving forward towards the goal line at all costs…

I liked Greenwald too; one of the *brass* who didn’t was none other than Larry Baer who s-canned Greenwald’s buddy David Glass too. Hank wrote a pretty good auto-bio, good read.
Kuip is losing it, calling guys by wrong names, but generally less annoying than Kruk’s homerism to me.
Sunday TBS guys I like would be Smoltz and Darling.

Hank Stram was an easy guy to dislike if you were a Raider fan, but he was shrewd guy who knew talent when he saw it and how best to use it. Madden tells stories about getting in his head that are pretty funny. One centers around Stram complaining Raiders over watered the field to slow them down, a fact Madden disputes because drainage there was crummy anyway. But it didn’t stop him from telling Stram that Field crew let sprinklers run all night and he was sorry and wouldn’t let it happen again. Or that exterminators hadn’t been able to clear all the rats out of KC locker room in time (another complete falsehood that never happened) for them to dress, which of course freaked out all the players before game time.

I read Greenwald’s book that Willie mentioned. It’s worthing looking for. Interesting that one of his big heroes is Douglas MacArthur. Greenwald went to the Philippines and walked in the water on the beach where the famous photo of MacArthur was taken of him striding ashore on his promised return.

There’s an awesome unforgettable depiction of MacArthur in Neal Stephenson’s novel “Cryptonomicon.” The scene is a Pynchon-esque description of bombs falling on the beach, and MacArthur never breaking stride, and barking out orders. Kind of like the Duvall character in “Apocalypse Now.”

March Madness is underway, hopefully to carry us through these last couple weeks before baseball starts. Final Four picks anyone? I’ve got Florida, Michigan State, Louisville and Arizona. And the only reason I took the Wildcats is because it’s hard to find anyone else much better out of that bracket.

I got Florida, Michigan St, Arizona and Duke. Florida over Duke…I tried to enter Buffett’s billion dollar challenge this morning, but registration was closed…Not a fan of this new “first round” that started on Tuesday…That really threw me off.

Mac, I have the same final four with Florida over Louisville to win. I picked AZ in the West because their fans should show up in San Diego and Anaheim and yeah, not much else in the bracket (although I do like Creighton a bit).

Speaking of books…..an author, Lucius Shepard, that isn’t all that well-known to the public overall, but is very good, passed away this week. He’s a big name in the sci-fi/fantasy genre. I think his stuff is terrific. I met him at a couple of book-signings. He seemed like a really nice guy, and weathered by the storms of life.

Just gruesome what happened to Adolis Chapman yesterday!
100 mph, and hitting him flush in the face with no time at all to react!
Thoughts and prayers for him and his family!
There going to be changes eventually and that corny huge cap protector they want the pitchers to use ain’t the answer! There gonna need a full face guard hockey shield!!
That line drive ricocheted into the 3B box and they immediatley called the game as they should have in ST,both teams were in total distraught..

That Chapman play was terribly frightening. Just read he’ll have surgery to insert a plate in his head to repair the fractures above his nose and left eye, but, incredibly, he should be able to return in a couple months. “He has a very mild concussion, no other brain injury, his eye’s fine,” Red medical director Dr. Tim Kremchek said. “He’s a very lucky guy.”

Yeah, I saw the aftermath of that shot…and where the ball ended up. Glad to hear that he will be okay. My daughter and I saw him throw 3 innings (guess the Reds were trying to stretch him out) against the Giants in their yard in Goodyear. He had some nasty stuff….

Dayton flyers take out intra state rival Ohio St in great game, exciting finish, good for the A-10.
Nobody likes Shockers huh? Guys can play I’m telling you.
Like to see if anyone emerges as Cindy type team like Fla Gulf Coast last year. Of course they wound up in NIT this year and lost, and the guy who coached them wound up at USC and went 2-16 in conference.

Mac he knows his stuff, but all the little cutesy name rhyming jokes are lame. “The Kiss???”
I’ll tell you who is truly annoying, Bill Walton. Last night during NIT game with USF he’s going on about attending Dead concerts at Golden Gate Park while the game is going end to end. Still talks about majoring in *Library Studies* while at UCLA and Wooden stuff in general. F, it was 45 yrs ago.
Flems was on a lot out here and did Mtn West tourney, he’s pretty good, maybe better than baseball.

Haha, yeah, he does have his pet phrases. “Onions” is my favorite. And I completely agree about Walton. I’ll never forget looking forward to going to the Nets-Lakers ’02 final in NJ just so I wouldn’t have to listen to Walton doing the games on TV.

Harvard hanging tough with Cincy, 2 pt lead with 7 to go. Lot of Stanford bloggers unhappy with Dawkins regime are up on Amaker. I dunno, maybe Ivy League is his level, coaching and recruiting vs. guys who wind up on wall St. as opposed to one and dones headed for NBA.

These 12/5 “upsets” are upsets only if one thinks that the rankings and polls are accurate during the season, the RPI means a lot, and the NCAA selection committee is doing these seedings based on nothing but perceived merit (such as Pitino vs. his former player in round 1). I don’t buy any of those propositions…