"My culture is cursing": Linux kernel world is a hostile place—by design.

Profanity and insults have long been management tactics of Linux creator Linus Torvalds. He once memorably gave the middle finger to Nvidia; separately, he announced that he would not change Linux "to deep-throat Microsoft." Torvalds has also shown no qualms about being rude to those who disagree with him.

When Torvalds is fighting for the open source way against proprietary software companies, his abrasive style may elicit cheers. But developers who volunteer to improve the Linux kernel and find themselves on the receiving end of a Torvalds tirade might prefer a different management style. One developer is now calling out Linux's leader for turning the world of open source kernel development into a hostile working environment.

“Keep it professional”

The Linux "workplace" is primarily a mailing list in which developers discuss changes to the kernel. The criticism of Torvalds came yesterday from developer Sarah Sharp, a software engineer at Intel who has made numerous contributions to the Linux kernel in the past seven years. Sharp wrote:

Seriously, guys? Is this what we need in order to get improve -stable? Linus Torvalds is advocating for physical intimidation and violence. Ingo Molnar and Linus are advocating for verbal abuse.

Not *fucking* cool. Violence, whether it be physical intimidation, verbal threats or verbal abuse is not acceptable. Keep it professional on the mailing lists.

Let's discuss this at Kernel Summit where we can at least yell at each other in person. Yeah, just try yelling at me about this. I'll roar right back, louder, for all the people who lose their voice when they get yelled at by top maintainers. I won't be the nice girl anymore.

Sarah Sharp

Sharp's e-mail quoted statements from Torvalds such as "Have you guys *seen* Greg? The guy is a freakish giant. He *should* scare you. He might squish you without ever even noticing" and "Greg, the reason you get a lot of stable patches seems to be that you make it easy to act as a door-mat. Clearly at least some people say 'I know this patch isn't important enough to send to Linus, but I know Greg will silently accept it after the fact, so I'll just wait and mark it for stable.' You may need to learn to shout at people." (Torvalds' target is Linux kernel chief Greg Kroah-Hartman.)

“Linus, you’re one of the worst offenders”

The argument over whether such language is appropriate then moved off-list, with Torvalds trying to make the conversation private and Sharp making it public again. "Oh, FFS, I [was] just called out on private email for 'playing the victim card,'" Sharp wrote. "I will repeat: this is not just about me, or other minorities. I should not have to ask for professional behavior on the mailing lists. Professional behavior should be the default."

At another point, Sharp added, "I am serious about this. Linus, you're one of the worst offenders when it comes to verbally abusing people and publicly tearing their emotions apart." She noted that while Torvalds has shown that he can politely tell developers their work needs changes, "You just don't want to take the time to be polite to everyone."

Torvalds' responses to Sharp's e-mails made it clear he has no intention of changing the way he writes to people on the Linux kernel mailing list. He even claimed to be something of an oppressed minority, saying Sharp should be sensitive to his Finnish culture and its reliance on cursing. In response to being called "one of the worst offenders," he wrote:

Yes. And I do it partly (mostly) because it's who I am, and partly because I honestly despise being subtle or "nice".

The fact is, people need to know what my position on things are. And I can't just say "please don't do that", because people won't listen. I say "On the internet, nobody can hear you being subtle," and I mean it.

And I definitely am not willing to string people along, either. I've had that happen too—not telling people clearly enough that I don't like their approach, they go on to re-architect something, and get really upset when I am then not willing to take their work.

Sarah, first off, I don't have that many tools at hand. Secondly, I simply don't believe in being polite or politically correct. And you can point at all those cultural factors where some cultures are not happy with confrontation (and feel free to make it about gender too—I think that's almost entirely cultural too). And please bring up "cultural sensitivity" while at it. And I'll give you back that same "cultural sensitivity". Please be sensitive to _my_ culture too.

Do you really want to oppress a minority? Because Finns are a minority compared to almost any other country. If you want to talk cultural sensitivity, I'll join you. But my culture includes cursing.

In another e-mail, Torvalds told Sharp that "the 'victim card' is exactly about trying to enforce your particular expectations on others, and trying to do so in a very particular way. It's the old 'think of the children' argument. And it's bogus. Calling things 'professional' is just more of the same—trying to enforce some kind of convention on others by trying to claim that it's the only acceptable way."

Torvalds concluded:

Because if you want me to "act professional," I can tell you that I'm not interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearing a bathrobe. The same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm *also* not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. Because THAT is what "acting professionally" results in: people resort to all kinds of really nasty things because they are forced to act out their normal urges in unnatural ways.

Clearly, Torvalds has an aversion to the corporate world. He works full-time on the kernel, with his work being funded by the nonprofit Linux Foundation (which in turn is funded by IBM, HP, Intel and dozens of other companies). The Linux Foundation has traditionally taken an extremely hands-off approach to Torvalds' work. We asked the Foundation if it has any response to Sharp's comments or any plans to discuss the matter with Torvalds, but we didn't receive an immediate response.

“Civil development discourse”

Sharp describes herself on LinkedIn as "a huge advocate of open source, open hardware, and Linux." She began contributing to Linux in 2006 "through an Intel Undergraduate Research Grant, [in which] I was funded to redesign the current Linux USB filesystem to better fit into the standard Unix I/O stream model." She is also the author of the Linux USB 3.0 host controller driver.

Torvalds' management hasn't prevented Linux from becoming one of the most sophisticated pieces of technology on the planet, and Sharp sounds unlikely to walk away from Linux development—but concerns about a hostile environment might have that effect on others.

Developer Neil Brown noted on the Linux kernel mailing list that "scolding people senior developers in front of newcomers ... is not likely to encourage people to want to become senior developers." Another developer, Stefano Stabellini, wrote that "I think there is a way to get the point across without cursing. One can be clear and decisive without 'bursting'. It's easy to mistake cursing on the quality of the code for a personal attack."

On Twitter, numerous developers thanked Sharp for her efforts. One called himself an "ex-kernel hacker," and another said, "Thanks for standing up for politeness/respect. If it works, I'll start doing Linux kernel dev. It's been too scary for years."

Longtime technologist, open source software user, and journalist Sean Michael Kerner expressed hope that Sharp's protests might help Linux development circles become more welcoming to those who prefer polite collaboration over confrontation. On InternetNews.com, Kerner wrote:

It's obvious to me that Sharp is right. It should be obvious to all decent human beings that violence and threats of abuse have no place in civil development discourse either.

Do I expect Linus to change? No. Do I hope he will? Yes.

Will Sharp change anything? I sure hope so. The fact that she's standing up and making her voice heard is the start of a conversation that should have started a long time ago.

UPDATE: Torvalds told Wired today that he looks forward to discussing "workflow" issues at the upcoming Kernel Summit. “It’s maybe easy to forget for outsiders. I’ve been doing this for 20+ years, and people don’t think about *why* I’m still doing it,” Torvalds wrote in an e-mail. “I care. Deeply.” However, Torvalds doesn't want a "code of conduct," saying that "venting of frustrations and anger is actually necessary, and trying to come up with some ‘code of conduct’ that says that people should be ‘respectful’ and ‘polite’ is just so much crap and bullshit.”

This seems less about being "professional" and more about being "courteous". Mr. Torvalds doesn't seem to get the concepts of manners, civil discourse, or polite discussion. While he might be correct in advocating a more direct management style within the Linux development community, he doesn't have to be rude, arrogant, or obnoxious to do that.

Linus has been this way since the 1990s and I don't see why he should have to change for some 'Sarah Comelately'. If you don't like it, feel free to go contribute to BSD or some other OS. Linus wrote Linux when you were in diapers or gradeschool or some such, it's sad he hurt your feelings or whatever, but this is the real world. DEAL WITH IT.

I am not agreeing that he SHOULD be a jerk, but he HAS been one for a long time and it works, so rather than expecting him to change, this girl should get a thicker skin.

apparently, the PC police are alive and kicking here as well (above). you can't use certain idioms without the conversation being labeled sexist. fine.[snip]

I'm so tired of people being sexist/etc-ist assholes on a topic, getting called on it, and then crying that they didn't mean it. (same with "it was just a 'joke'" as an excuse for something obviously meant to be insulting/postured as a verbal attack)

You were being a sexist ass, at least own up to it. If you weren't, you were just being plain dumb in that context.

Good for Linus, it's his baby and he can act like he wants to, if you have a problem with that you are also free to not participate and join some other weak group where everyone is polite to each other and nothing useful gets done

I wrote this to Jon via Email (because he doesn't read the forums like other reporters):

Totally biased article about Linus is good journalism?

Leaving out parts like:

"And some of the above is written tonge-in-cheek, but all of it is also serious. I really fundamentally believe that being honest and open about your emotions about core/process is good. And because it's damn hard to read people over email, I think you need to be *more* honest and *more* open over email. I'm generally nicer in person. Not always.

"

and

"

Oh, I'll be polite when it's called for.

But when people who know better send me crap, I'll curse at them.

I suspect you'll notice me cursing *way* more at top developers thanrandom people on the list. I expect more from them, and converselyI'll be a lot more upset when they do something that I really thinkwas not great.

For example, my latest cursing explosion was for the x86 maintainers,and it comes from the fact that I *know* they know to do better. Thex86 tip pulls have generally been through way more testing than mostother pulls I get (not just compiling, but even booting randconfigsetc). So when an x86 pull request comes in that clearly missed thatexpected level of quality, I go to town.

Similarly, you will see fireworks if some long-term maintainer makesexcuses for breaking user space etc. That will make me go intoincoherent rages.

The "polite Linus" example that you point to? That was a maintainerasking for direction for when things went wrong and *before* sendingme something dubious. Of course I'm polite then.

Sarah, I don't have Tourettes syndrome. You seem to think that mycursing is uncontrolled and random. I argue that it has causes. Bigdifference.

Linus"

totally skews the article, but I guess the new Ars needs page views more than good journalism.

And honestly, do you have in depth knowledge about kernel development to judge?

I want my kernel to only run really good code .. Linus' Kernel delivered. You are probably aMac User that doesn't really care about Linux.

The people Linus yells at are really well paid devs from big companies that fuck up,they deserve no better.

Torvalds sounds like the kind of guy to which someone will one day be rude right back by suddenly introducing him to blunt objects. I've had clients who did such for less than someone cursing at them, just snapped, never know when that one little thing will cause another to react aggressively or violently. A really bad day, spouse on the warpath, pissed at something, and then someone starts cursing at you and being intentionally rude because they think its their right - yep, that one little push is all it takes sometimes. Seen it a hundred times.

I think Ms. Sharpe forgets the composition of the community is primarily "socially challenged" individuals (myself included). So unfortunately, professionalism does take a back seat, if it ever makes it in the car.

plus the medium probably doesn't help.

also, its easier to be snide and snickety instead of thoughtful and constructive.

nonetheless, I applaud Ms. Sharpe and agree that professionalism should be the default.

but the unfortunate truth of the matter (as is well evidenced) is that the community is dominated by ill adjusted, socially underdeveloped, nerds, that ironically turn to bullying the first chance they get.

My favorite part (other than Linus making it about Sarah Sharp's gender before she brings it up, and then immediately accusing her of trying to make everything about gender when she responds) is that he exhorts the reader to "Google management by perkele."

So I did that. Naturally, Wikipedia was the first thing that came up. Here's what Wikipedia has to say:

Quote:

In this meaning "management by perkele" implies indiscriminate application of Army methods in civilian life — exporting practices which are proper for one small specific area of society into another, where they may have mixed results. The Finnish Defence Forces have Prussian traditions of discipline: when an order is given, it is expected that it is obeyed perfectly without question.

Unfortunately, Prussian hazing traditions — which have been eliminated recently in the army — follow. The old "army philosophy" is based on inducing fear and uncertainty in subordinates. It can also be seen as organizational workplace bullying. In expert organizations, management by fear has been found to cause halting of positive development, because employees can be too effectively intimidated from expressing alternative development ideas. This also promotes excluding individuals from the teamwork, because a fear of co-workers leads to associations only with the ones one can trust.

Emphasis mine.

The first rule of dismissiveness: if you're going to tell someone to "google it", make sure you actually google it first to be sure that the internet doesn't explicitly disagree with you.

There's a difference between being blunt and being mean. I feel this behavior crosses the line into mean/childish behavior.

I work in game development, leading a small team within a very large team. We're very blunt with each other. We get right to the point, we sometimes use colorful language when speaking with each other about our work. When we're discussing matters of creative or technical criticism, hierarchy goes out the window. I can criticize anyone, anyone can criticize me, there's no fear of political repercussions or other nonsense. "I think thing X is kind of shitty, let's discuss" is very common around here.

As a team leader I feel very strongly that this helps us to be more effective, efficient, and has led us to being one of the stronger teams of our discipline within the games industry.

But we don't cross the line. We don't insult each other. There's no "f*ck yous," no insulting others who aren't in the room, no tearing someone down in front of everyone else just to make a point. We can talk very bluntly to each other without being disrespectful to each other. It's a fine line, but if you can walk it there are many advantages.

I agree with Linus on the point that saying "please do this" or "please don't do this" often won't get results. But you can get good results without being a raging asshole. If you can't get what you need out of your team without resorting to this kind of behavior, consider replacing them or yourself.

I'm going to quote Linus's entire reply because it is glaringly obvious that it has been completely taken out of context. It's nowhere near the level of incivility that most people here (and the Ars article) suggest it is.

Linux Torvalds wrote:

<sarah.a.sharp@linux.intel.com> wrote:>> Oh, FFS, I just called out on private email for "playing the victim> card". I will repeat: this is not just about me, or other minorities.> I should not have to ask for professional behavior on the mailing lists.> Professional behavior should be the default.

Bullshit.

The thing is, the "victim card" is exactly about trying to enforceyour particular expectations on others, and trying to do so in a veryparticular way. It's the old "think of the children" argument. Andit's bogus. Calling things "professional" is just more of the same -trying to enforce some kind of convention on others by trying to claimthat it's the only acceptable way.

[ Since you seem to want to keep this in public, I'll justcut-and-paste from my reply, so you have already seen this part of myargument, it's only slightly edited because now I'm no longer typingon my cellphone ]

The thing is, different people act and react differently. On bothsides. And I think we should recognize that and also *allow* for that.And sometimes it means, for example, that people interact primarilywith certain people that they like more - because they are a better"fit".

I think we actually do it very naturally, simply because we are human,and this is how people interact in real life too. Sometimes we do itconsciously - the way we have people at various companies that act asgo-betweens - but most of the time we do it just because humans areall about social interactions and we don't even think about what we doand why.

For example, you work mostly through Greg. I don't think either of you*planned* it that way, but it's likely because you guys work welltogether.

See what I'm saying? People are different. I'm not polite, and I getupset easily but generally don't hold a grudge - I have theseexplosive emails. And that works well for some people. And it probablydoesn't work well with you.

And you know what? That's fine. Not everybody had to get along or workwell with each other. But the fact that it doesn't work with youdoesn't make it "wrong".

This isn't all that different from working around language issues etcby having certain people work as in-betweens on that front.

And where we differ is in thinking either side has to necessarilychange. You think people need to act "nicer". While I think it's*natural* that people have different behavior - and differentexpectations. We all have issues somewhere and don't all like eachother. There are certain people I refuse to work with, for example.They may be good engineers, but they just aren't people I can workwith.

And hey, I don't actually think we've personally even had anyproblems. And I realize that you may react very strongly and getnervous about us having problems, but realistically, do you actuallyexpect to like all the other kernel engineers?

And equally importantly, not everybody has to like you, or necessarilythink they have to be liked by you. OK?

So as far as I'm concerned, the discussion is about "how to worktogether DESPITE people being different". Not about trying to makeeverybody please each other. Because I can pretty much guarantee thatI'll continue cursing. To me, the discussion would be about how towork together despite these kinds of cultural differences, not about"how do we make everybody nice and sing songs sound the campfire"

Do you think you might be interested in *that* kind of discussioninstead of the "you are abusing me" kind of discussion?

Because if you want me to "act professional", I can tell you that I'mnot interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearign a bathrobe. Thesame way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm *also* not going tobuy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics andbackstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. BecauseTHAT is what "acting professionally" results in: people resort to allkinds of really nasty things because they are forced to act out theirnormal urges in unnatural ways.

As far as Linus is concerned, I've read the re-posted copy of Linus' commentary (and other things said here), and my main thought is: the fact that experienced devs (evidently his only target) aren't openly protesting being treated that way doesn't mean that they agree with it as a tactic. In a situation like that, at least a decent percentage of people would rather get blunt, honest assessment without the side dish of verbal abuse, but refrain from saying it for fear of they'll be attacked, especially as each would assume he/she is alone in that sentiment.

sounds more like he's just making excuses for generally being an arrogant douche because he can. you work long enough you always see these types. it's the epitome of "power corrupts".

the fact is, you can be absolutely direct and forward withoit being a douchebag. you absolutely can. you can even do it without shouting, threatening or humiliating. it also takes far less energy.

you know, when i read about linus and his antics, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. not only is linux not fit for general user consumption but it's that type of mentality which will continue to keep it at 1%.

Looking back at votes, this might be unpopular, but as a honest Finn I won't let that bother me.

I agree with Torvads.

We are honest, no nonsense people who have a habit calling a spade a spade. If somebody does something stupid, we say it. I really understand when he loses his temper when people who he thinks should know better foul linux really bad. Linux is his baby, and by putting broken code into it, it is like somebody came and took a crap on his shiny new white rug. He is the rug guard, given clear rules what is allowed. He is polite when it is done by people who he doesn't know that they should know better. But when it is done by one of the deputy rug guards, well, he will call a spade a spade.

And here's something to reflect at for those calling Torvalds a juvenile.

I dislike "Political Correctness". So that this won't be misunderstood, I don't mean basic politeness, or bad mouthing people for no reason. I mean the political correctness where you invent new words, new euphemisms or make expressing some information forbidden.

To me, and I believe to most Finns subconsciously, political correctness is tantamount to lying.

So I too understand when Torvalds talks about understanding it from his point of view. He has to bear with the PC crap which deep down sound dishonest to him.

ps. I wonder have the people who call him juvenile etc when they think he is acting juvenile etc see the irony? To spell it out to them, they are doing exactly what they disapprove on what Linus does.

I think Linus has a point. I am working with a chinese student on a university project and whenever I ask a question regarding a problem, I always get a grin and a "yes". I know she is a nice person and probably doesnt annoy me on purpose, but asking an important question and never getting an answer I can trust is so frustrating! I have to double check everything and could scream out of anger, when she tells me something we both know is wrong, straight in the eye. Being more to the point and sound aggressive might intimidate someone, but at least it gets the job done and no work needs to be double checked.

you won't get better from her by intimidating ppl like that. you'll more likely drive them to hide things even further.

i've seen a lot of westerners who don't know how to handle asian workers and oddly enough, asian managers who cant handle asian employees. our customs can be very different. asians in general don't express themselves, even in the workplace. we were discussing this in a management meeting with leaders from several industries. they simply arent as forthcoming so you have to know how to get what you want out of them.

shouting and intimidation won't make a lick of difference. my experience has been, you only bugger yourself in the long run by doing so. don't expect them to give you honest assessments or recommendation either.

public displays of aggression are inefficent, ineffective in most cases, and just generally waste energy and create an unpleasant working environment. but take that with a grain of salt. i'm a stereotypical intp profile base. i tend to view ppl with extreme emotional outbursts to be highly incompetent and a waster of time and energy.

I've read LKML for a lot of years, and Linus can definitely yell. The thing to understand is that he yells for a reason, he yells about the reason, and he doesn't hold a grudge. He doesn't insult people to hurt them, he insults stupid behavior. And he's got an incredibly good track record of being correct about what he judges to be stupid behavior, which is a big part of why Linux is what it is today.

Remember, Linus' job right now is management. He's as much a kernel development process engineer as anything else, and his communication style is as important a part of the Linux kernel development process as was his invention of Git.

Linus *cares* an incredible amount about what happens to the software that he oversees, and it's a damn good thing too because a very high fraction of the world's computing is done on his software. When he curses and yells, he's communicating to others that they had best *be careful*. That *it matters*.

To me, Linus swearing and chewing people out is no different than a foreman at a construction site doing it. It's something to be done on special occasions, because of the critical nature of the work and because of how much damage a mistake could cause. If Linus did it too much, or too freely, or too harshly, the Linux kernel development process just would not work.

But he doesn't do it that much, or that freely, or even that harshly, generally. The Linux kernel development process works at a planetary scale as a result. His lieutenants understand the quality that is expected of them, and they know that the guy who chews them out from time to time actually knows his stuff, he's actually paying an intense amount of attention, and the cursing is to make Linux the best that Linus can make it.

Linus *cares* an incredible amount about what happens to the software that he oversees, and it's a damn good thing too because a very high fraction of the world's computing is done on his software. When he curses and yells, he's communicating to others that they had best *be careful*. That *it matters*.

To me, Linus swearing and chewing people out is no different than a foreman at a construction site doing it. It's something to be done on special occasions, because of the critical nature of the work and because of how much damage a mistake could cause. If Linus did it too much, or too freely, or too harshly, the Linux kernel development process just would not work.

People keep forgetting that he's surrounded by incredibly smart people and that leads to several things to happen:

1.- Incredibly smart people tend to not listen unless you yell at them.

2.- Incredibly smart people can also be some of the most foulest trolls the world has ever seen. Specially if you strongly disagree with them or have a hard time understanding what the hell they're trying to communicate.

3.- Point 1 and 2 happen on both genders so it's not a gender-specific issue.

I can't be the only one around here finding it ironic that one of the world's biggest open source projects is (seemingly) being run the way the old IBMs and MSs were back in the day. Now the IBMs and MSs of the world are some of the biggest open source contributors while the open source leaders are bullying and shutting people out.

And seriously, Nijyo, do you really think acting like an unquestionable cult leader is not a Bad Thing®?

It's NOT *his* show, he didn't write most of the kernel, it was a community effort. That's the whole point!

Didn't see it in the article or discussion. What is the Linux foundations fall back plan if all of the corporate donors back out after one of his fits? Corporate culture is polite bullshit because companies fear lawsuits for hostile work environments. His "volunteers" are paid by companies like IBM to provide code and service to advance Linux. This means the corporate donors have exposure for creating a hostile environment for their employees by putting them out there to deal with Linus.

So what happens if Linux Foundation suddenly can't find corporate donors to give them money or resources to advance the cause? Who would be the alternate foundation that could fork and run the Linux kernel going forward?

apparently, the PC police are alive and kicking here as well (above). you can't use certain idioms without the conversation being labeled sexist. fine.[snip]

I'm so tired of people being sexist/etc-ist assholes on a topic, getting called on it, and then crying that they didn't mean it. (same with "it was just a 'joke'" as an excuse for something obviously meant to be insulting/postured as a verbal attack)

You were being a sexist ass, at least own up to it. If you weren't, you were just being plain dumb in that context.

i'm going to try to reply to this in a way that won't get censored.

calling someone a pu$$y is no more sexist (and no smarter) than calling someone a douchebag, which has been done in plenty of the posts above without the author or post being called sexist or an ass. maybe no-one remembers what a douchebag actually is.

further, i tried earlier to edit the post to say "Sissix" or "Wimpix" or "CryBabyix" or "Whineix", but once my post was labeled sexist, that option was apparently removed.

the difference between irrevocably censoring my post because someone thought i was talking about vaginas and not censoring it because, although perhaps slightly more crass than the one or two post above it, it could be interpreted otherwise, is the difference between being a little too PC and being what i would call "typically" permissive. moderation can be either - i suppose that's a marketing choice if nothing else.

however, the larger point is this: the moderator could have just said that my statement was in bad taste and moderated it. instead, the moderator labeled it as sexist. that goes beyond being a little too PC (which is every moderator's right) and enters the realm of viewpoint moderation, which is lazy, in addition to being disheartening in a forum thread dedicated to an article that is clearly meant to elicit different viewpoints. more to your point, there are plenty of "dumb" posters in this thread, i don't know why my "dumb" post gets singled out for moderation because, at best, it includes a double entendre.

moreover, the fact that the moderator felt that an presumed attack on one type of gonad was worthy of moderation, yet seems to have felt just fine with the various vitriol levied against Linus (all of which is undeserved), seems pretty sexist in and of itself. what am i to think other than that the moderator believes that a male can fend for himself in a verbal assault, and a woman needs help? maybe the moderator's feminist friends are substantially different from mine...

being easily offended and knee-jerk labeling is a vicious circle - you end up forming an unrealistic verbal bubble around yourself that makes it ever so much easier to be offended in the future. and labels are almost always a lazy way to dismiss a viewpoint you don't like and can't be bothered to investigate properly (which is truly an ongoing issue here). finally, to come full circle, you can't be an effective manager (and often can't be an effective collaborator) if you build such a bubble around yourself.

summary: the moderator had every right to moderate my post, regardless of what i meant to say or what i think. it's a little strange that my post got hit and others didn't. the moderator (and you) went too far to label it sexist, and i'm being generous when i attribute it to simply being too PC (less generous is that it was lazy, viewpoint moderation, and/or impliedly sexist). shrug. i guess its to be expected when this whole article is a troll?

Reading the comments in this thread illustrate cultural differences perfectly.

The majority of Americans here don't seem to understand the point of bluntness to the point of either interpreting it as a threat of actual physical violence and responding with force, or by trying to build and then enforce the consensus that Linus is a douchebag.

You're only partially getting it. Being blunt and being abusive are not the same thing. Linus is both, and his abusive remarks overshadow his bluntness.

For example, if I were to say "You talk like a fag, my method allows <list of advantages>, and your shit's all retarded because your method has <list of disadvantages>", people only remember being insulted, not the reasoning you give for dismissing their contribution. It makes people switch off. That's not what you want for a project that is 99% contributed by other people.

I wrote this to Jon via Email (because he doesn't read the forums like other reporters):

Totally biased article about Linus is good journalism?

Leaving out parts like:

"And some of the above is written tonge-in-cheek, but all of it is also serious. I really fundamentally believe that being honest and open about your emotions about core/process is good. And because it's damn hard to read people over email, I think you need to be *more* honest and *more* open over email. I'm generally nicer in person. Not always.

"

and

"

Oh, I'll be polite when it's called for.

But when people who know better send me crap, I'll curse at them.

I suspect you'll notice me cursing *way* more at top developers thanrandom people on the list. I expect more from them, and converselyI'll be a lot more upset when they do something that I really thinkwas not great.

For example, my latest cursing explosion was for the x86 maintainers,and it comes from the fact that I *know* they know to do better. Thex86 tip pulls have generally been through way more testing than mostother pulls I get (not just compiling, but even booting randconfigsetc). So when an x86 pull request comes in that clearly missed thatexpected level of quality, I go to town.

Similarly, you will see fireworks if some long-term maintainer makesexcuses for breaking user space etc. That will make me go intoincoherent rages.

The "polite Linus" example that you point to? That was a maintainerasking for direction for when things went wrong and *before* sendingme something dubious. Of course I'm polite then.

Sarah, I don't have Tourettes syndrome. You seem to think that mycursing is uncontrolled and random. I argue that it has causes. Bigdifference.

Linus"

totally skews the article, but I guess the new Ars needs page views more than good journalism.

And honestly, do you have in depth knowledge about kernel development to judge?

I want my kernel to only run really good code .. Linus' Kernel delivered. You are probably aMac User that doesn't really care about Linux.

The people Linus yells at are really well paid devs from big companies that fuck up,they deserve no better.

Cheers,

- Tom -

I do read the comments and am very active in promoting the best ones, as I did in this case. Thanks for your email.

I wrote this to Jon via Email (because he doesn't read the forums like other reporters):

Totally biased article about Linus is good journalism?

Leaving out parts like:

"And some of the above is written tonge-in-cheek, but all of it is also serious. I really fundamentally believe that being honest and open about your emotions about core/process is good. And because it's damn hard to read people over email, I think you need to be *more* honest and *more* open over email. I'm generally nicer in person. Not always.

"

and

"

Oh, I'll be polite when it's called for.

But when people who know better send me crap, I'll curse at them.

I suspect you'll notice me cursing *way* more at top developers thanrandom people on the list. I expect more from them, and converselyI'll be a lot more upset when they do something that I really thinkwas not great.

For example, my latest cursing explosion was for the x86 maintainers,and it comes from the fact that I *know* they know to do better. Thex86 tip pulls have generally been through way more testing than mostother pulls I get (not just compiling, but even booting randconfigsetc). So when an x86 pull request comes in that clearly missed thatexpected level of quality, I go to town.

Similarly, you will see fireworks if some long-term maintainer makesexcuses for breaking user space etc. That will make me go intoincoherent rages.

The "polite Linus" example that you point to? That was a maintainerasking for direction for when things went wrong and *before* sendingme something dubious. Of course I'm polite then.

Sarah, I don't have Tourettes syndrome. You seem to think that mycursing is uncontrolled and random. I argue that it has causes. Bigdifference.

Linus"

totally skews the article, but I guess the new Ars needs page views more than good journalism.

And honestly, do you have in depth knowledge about kernel development to judge?

I want my kernel to only run really good code .. Linus' Kernel delivered. You are probably aMac User that doesn't really care about Linux.

The people Linus yells at are really well paid devs from big companies that fuck up,they deserve no better.

Cheers,

- Tom -

I do read the comments and am very active in promoting the best ones, as I did in this case. Thanks for your email.

OK... you replied to the 1st sentence of that post. For good curtiousy, can you reply to the rest of it, which I think stresses the whole problem of your article that many commenters have discovered?

I wrote this to Jon via Email (because he doesn't read the forums like other reporters):

Totally biased article about Linus is good journalism?

Leaving out parts like:

"And some of the above is written tonge-in-cheek, but all of it is also serious. I really fundamentally believe that being honest and open about your emotions about core/process is good. And because it's damn hard to read people over email, I think you need to be *more* honest and *more* open over email. I'm generally nicer in person. Not always.

"

and

"

Oh, I'll be polite when it's called for.

But when people who know better send me crap, I'll curse at them.

I suspect you'll notice me cursing *way* more at top developers thanrandom people on the list. I expect more from them, and converselyI'll be a lot more upset when they do something that I really thinkwas not great.

For example, my latest cursing explosion was for the x86 maintainers,and it comes from the fact that I *know* they know to do better. Thex86 tip pulls have generally been through way more testing than mostother pulls I get (not just compiling, but even booting randconfigsetc). So when an x86 pull request comes in that clearly missed thatexpected level of quality, I go to town.

Similarly, you will see fireworks if some long-term maintainer makesexcuses for breaking user space etc. That will make me go intoincoherent rages.

The "polite Linus" example that you point to? That was a maintainerasking for direction for when things went wrong and *before* sendingme something dubious. Of course I'm polite then.

Sarah, I don't have Tourettes syndrome. You seem to think that mycursing is uncontrolled and random. I argue that it has causes. Bigdifference.

Linus"

totally skews the article, but I guess the new Ars needs page views more than good journalism.

And honestly, do you have in depth knowledge about kernel development to judge?

I want my kernel to only run really good code .. Linus' Kernel delivered. You are probably aMac User that doesn't really care about Linux.

The people Linus yells at are really well paid devs from big companies that fuck up,they deserve no better.

Cheers,

- Tom -

I do read the comments and am very active in promoting the best ones, as I did in this case. Thanks for your email.

OK... you replied to the 1st sentence of that post. For good curtiousy, can you reply to the rest of it, which I think stresses the whole problem of your article that many commenters have discovered?

I see nothing else that requires a response or indicates any problem in the article.

The comments that were "discovered" were discovered because I linked to them in this article-I welcome you to read all of the emails, which is why I directed readers toward them.

No story includes every possible quote. The key is that Linus did not disavow any of the comments that were called out as being abusive. He specifically said that he was being serious about "all of" them.

Linus stands behind his statements and doesn't try to soften their impact. I see no reason why I should do so on his behalf.

Whatever Linus says sounds like Mother Teresa to me. I never heard him being rude, and I think of him as sensitive, though his words may suggest otherwise to those that he wants out.

His finnish cultural background joke is likewise just a bait to call out the immature, what used to be called a "lack of character". You know, the kind of person that doesn't seem to know that if the ship goes down, we all drown.

So, we now see the zombies performing a devil-attack on Linus by distorting as Wrong what he does Right. For devil's-rule #1 shall fulfill itself: the incompetent shall rule [and bring about suffering].

I wonder if Torvalds would change him tune if someone popped him one. POW, RIGHT IN THE KISSER. He seems to have no qualms threatening and verbally berating others, because he sees himself as the alpha dog. Wouldn't hurt for someone to knock him down a few pegs, and teach him that treating folks like garbage can eventually catch up with you.

Well, given that he wrote Linux for himself, and it's named after him, he has a certain claim to ownership as alpha dog of Linux, don't you think?

This reminds me of all the whining that happened when Lucas started changing the Star Wars movies. Frankly, at the end of the day, if he wants to be that way about how he runs his show, eh so be it. Sarah should go write Sarah can go write Sharpnix, turn it into one of the most popular OSes in the world, and run the show however she wants. It's like the radio, if you don't like what's on the station, no one is making her listen to it.