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Re: Dunn traded to DBacks

The difference between 82 and 83 is the farm system is in alot better shape than back then. Bob Howsam came out of retirement to clean up the mess.

Fast forward to today. Jockerty is here to clean up the mess created by Bowden, O'Brien and Krivisky. Finally we have one gm who can bring in his own players and jettison out the ones he didn't acquire. Sometimes you have to tear it down in order to build it back up.

Re: Dunn traded to DBacks

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

You worry about the "chemistry" after you assemble the tallent. Even then you can live without it if you have enough tallent.

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Re: Dunn traded to DBacks

I suppose cancer researchers haven't found a cure because they "don't want it bad enough"?

Every straight man who hasn't slept with Angelie Jolie is really gay and every gay man who hasn't slept with Brad Pitt is really straight....

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Re: Dunn traded to DBacks

So if one player is Owings, does he have to pass through waivers to get to the Reds for the balance of the 2008 season?

And do the D'backs competitors claim him or hope he passes through?

I don't think Owens would make it past the bottom dwellers. Cheap, major league arm.... he'd be claimed by the Nats.

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Re: Dunn traded to DBacks

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

MF, I think the question is not whether or not culture/leadership is important. Let's assume it is for the sake of discussion. The question is whether Dunn's presence somehow prevented the Reds from having said culture. I think it's difficult to make the case that Dunn is at fault for the Reds attitude. Rather, I think the attitude is a direct result of a dearth of talent. Losing begets losing. I don't disagree that the Reds culture left a lot to be desired. But I don't see many teams with the poor talent level the Reds have run out there the last 8 years with the type of culture being described. It's tough to adopt a position where losing is unacceptable when the deck is constantly stacked against you.

I suppose one could argue that no amount of talent is worth the money Dunn would require if it does not also come with the type of leadership abilities you've described. However, I imagine that on a team in the hunt, Dunn's attitude and role in the clubhouse will be cast in a very different light. It would have been very interesting to see how Dunn would have been received had he been surrounded with more talent in Red.

RMR I think this was an important cog of the trade. When you commit a lot of money to a particular player you have not only take the player on the field but you also take the player off the field. The Reds management, especially Jocketty, had to make a decision on Dunn. Maybe they thought what Dunn brought to the field as well as the clubhouse wasn't worth the long term commitment. Maybe they felt that 8 years of losing had a substantial impact on Dunn and his attitude and it was time to part ways.

Winning teams play a different brand of baseball. I have seen it many times when the Cards come into town. I saw it last season when the Angles came to town. You see it when you watch the Red Sox play. I don't mean to knock Dunn but maybe the Reds felt that his personality, drive, desire to win wasn't going to work with the direction or commitment that the FO was heading towards.

Maybe the "idiot" PDoc was onto something. Maybe, just maybe, the stat guys love Dunn too much yet the traditionalist undvervalue Dunn. His offense will be tough to replace but his defense sure won't. Maybe the Reds felt they needed to go in a different direction and that direction was without Dunn.

Re: Dunn traded to DBacks

Originally Posted by jojo

I don't think Owens would make it past the bottom dwellers. Cheap, major league arm.... he'd be claimed by the Nats.

No, they'll let him clear because they know he'll be pulled back if they claim him, anyway. The only reason to claim him is to be a pest, because it's not going to prevent the trade and it'll just make people mad at you for no possible gain.

"Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

Re: Dunn traded to DBacks

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

The irony is I am a big believer in team chemistry and that fuzzy clubhouse stuff. Hell, I've agrued FOR it many times in my early RZ carear.

Of coruse you want to paint me as a "stats" person which is equally laughable as I know how to interpret exactly one set of numbers. Wheeeee I love numbers! Ask RMR, Steel or Cyclone if they consider me a "stats" person. They might choke out a "no" in between fits of laughter. Of corse, what you are doing is trying to minimize my response and change the subject because your position is untenable. Perhaps a comment about my spelling is in order? Serriously, you couldn't be more off-base in your attempt to shift the argument.

What you identify as "apathy" I identify as "incompetance" or "inablity to acomplish a goal" or "dear in the headlights". I don't doubt that those guys want to win, they just don't know how to (because they can't). It's not because they don't understand that scoring runs is important. You want to defeat insecurity in a child? Help them acomplish something on their own. You want to destroy apthy on a baseball team? Give them the tallent to win.

You can try to hang this around Dunn neck all you want. As if he became Judge Wapner in the clubhouse BPhil would learn to lay off the down-away slider or EE wouldn't wing a ball into the stands now and again? And with this group, even if Dunn became super-clubhouse-leader-guy what's that going to do? Win 3 more games? 5? Whoopie. And what about Harrang? He isn't exactly a fire & brimstone guy. Why haven't you dinged him?

You worry about the "chemistry" after you assemble the tallent. Even then you can live without it if you have enough tallent.

Um, no one is trying to hang anything around Dunn's neck. I am saying he is one of many Reds in this current era who accepted things the way they are and actually seemed to have an affinity for perceiving that winning isn't all that big a deal around here. If you would read again, you would see my mentions of Arroyo and Graves. The list is long of guys who are comfortable in Cincy and are just fine with a team attitude of "go get 'em tomorrow boys, can't win 'em all." All that your above arguments/rants do is put more straw in your strawman, as in I have not been suggesting what you are suggesting.

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