Caradoc wrote:Fitz seems to project as an elite safety-corner hybrid. I’d value that as much as any corner unless you are talking a Revis type shutdown corner. Gives defenses a lot of options and a lot of playmaking opportunities. The way the game has changed really alters the relative value of the safety and corner positions especially for someone who can be a true hybrid.

The most valuable thing any defense can have is a pass rusher who wins consistently.

The next most valuable thing any defense can have is a corner who can shut his guy down.

If a versatile safety was as valuable as a lockdown corner, Honey Badger would still be in Arizona and Peterson would be gone.

Ward has that kind of ability in coverage. Is anyone going to say he's going to be a Hall of Famer like Darrelle Revis five months before his first NFL game? Obviously not. But he's as good a pure corner cover prospect as you're going to get coming into the league. He's not one of these 6'2 dudes who looks like a safety, obviously, like Peterson or Ramsey. But, like, "go cover that guy and don't give him any room to breathe?" He's that guy.

Unless Chubb is there, we'd be fools to pass on a corner like this.

You have an extremely overly simplistic view of things.

And if honey badger had stayed healthy he’d probably still be in AZ.

At the risk of being rude, there has been a lot of stuff like your “the most valuable thing a team can have is X” in order. It’s a cliche, just like the people saying Licht sucks because ”you build a defense from front to back”. People seem to think repeating these things makes them sound like astute pros, but it doesn’t. It makes you sound like you just spout cliches and don’t think beyond that.

The game has changed since those cliches started, and both completely ignore circumstance. Sherman is a good corner, but Thomas meant a lot more to that defense. The AZ defense wasn’t the same after Tyrann got hurt.

Positional value is nice, but it isn’t the end all be all people make it a it to be. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

MJW wrote:The most valuable thing any defense can have is a pass rusher who wins consistently.

The next most valuable thing any defense can have is a corner who can shut his guy down.

If a versatile safety was as valuable as a lockdown corner, Honey Badger would still be in Arizona and Peterson would be gone.

Ward has that kind of ability in coverage. Is anyone going to say he's going to be a Hall of Famer like Darrelle Revis five months before his first NFL game? Obviously not. But he's as good a pure corner cover prospect as you're going to get coming into the league. He's not one of these 6'2 dudes who looks like a safety, obviously, like Peterson or Ramsey. But, like, "go cover that guy and don't give him any room to breathe?" He's that guy.

Unless Chubb is there, we'd be fools to pass on a corner like this.

You have an extremely overly simplistic view of things.

And if honey badger had stayed healthy he’d probably still be in AZ.

At the risk of being rude, there has been a lot of stuff like your “the most valuable thing a team can have is X” in order. It’s a cliche, just like the people saying Licht sucks because ”you build a defense from front to back”. People seem to think repeating these things makes them sound like astute pros, but it doesn’t. It makes you sound like you just spout cliches and don’t think beyond that.

The game has changed since those cliches started, and both completely ignore circumstance. Sherman is a good corner, but Thomas meant a lot more to that defense. The AZ defense wasn’t the same after Tyrann got hurt.

Positional value is nice, but it isn’t the end all be all people make it a it to be. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Bill Belichick consistently said Ed Reed was the most difficult player to scheme against in the NFL. He called him the most important player on a Ravens defense that had Ray Lewis, Chris McAllister, Adalious Thomas, Bart Scott, Haloti Ngata, and Terrell Suggs on it.

Sometimes a supreme talent does supercede conventional thought. Your Earl Thomas example is another good one. That Seattle D was built from back to front.

Edit: IMO Fitz is an exceptional talent. A talent like him could change a defense the way Eric Berry, Earl Thomas, or Ed Reed could. His versatility is a strength instead of a knock like it was for Peppers last year. We have a whole in tge roster that Fitz can fill and he'll likely be BPA. If Nelson and Chubb are gone, he's my pick.

MJW wrote:The most valuable thing any defense can have is a pass rusher who wins consistently.

The next most valuable thing any defense can have is a corner who can shut his guy down.

If a versatile safety was as valuable as a lockdown corner, Honey Badger would still be in Arizona and Peterson would be gone.

Ward has that kind of ability in coverage. Is anyone going to say he's going to be a Hall of Famer like Darrelle Revis five months before his first NFL game? Obviously not. But he's as good a pure corner cover prospect as you're going to get coming into the league. He's not one of these 6'2 dudes who looks like a safety, obviously, like Peterson or Ramsey. But, like, "go cover that guy and don't give him any room to breathe?" He's that guy.

Unless Chubb is there, we'd be fools to pass on a corner like this.

You have an extremely overly simplistic view of things.

And if honey badger had stayed healthy he’d probably still be in AZ.

At the risk of being rude, there has been a lot of stuff like your “the most valuable thing a team can have is X” in order. It’s a cliche, just like the people saying Licht sucks because ”you build a defense from front to back”. People seem to think repeating these things makes them sound like astute pros, but it doesn’t. It makes you sound like you just spout cliches and don’t think beyond that.

The game has changed since those cliches started, and both completely ignore circumstance. Sherman is a good corner, but Thomas meant a lot more to that defense. The AZ defense wasn’t the same after Tyrann got hurt.

Positional value is nice, but it isn’t the end all be all people make it a it to be. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

A bunch of insults and nothing to substantiate your objections except a vague example. Cool. But please, use Jason Licht as an example of how eschewing conventional widsom and positional value is the mark of a true football genius. It's working out super for us. I'm sure the 4D chess game will make sense to a simpleton like me some day.

Safeties are not as valuable as cover corners, things being equal. Use more Bootzian, "You haven't thought about it as much as I have if you disagree" language if you like.

Fitz floor is far higher than Wards. Ward can easily be another VH3. At the end you can- at worst- move Fitz to S and still have a great player. That's the floor there.

Sorry but when it comes to picking #7 I'm not risking it all on high risk high reward players- that what the second round is for, for the Spence, and Bowers of the world. The first you need to get a for sure will help you team be far better prospect and that's Fitz. He walks onto the practice field as our best DB.

One thing , Peppers played out of position for the entire season until week 18. That's HORRIBLE coaching in Cle. That aside I mentioned this before. Don't underestimate great safety play. All the SB perennials going back to 2000 n on all had it.Phi- Dawkins. TB - Lynch, Pitt- Troy P. Bal- Ed Reed,Sea- Thomas and Chancelier,Indy - Bob Sanders- GB- ( Butler earlier Woodson later)Ari- Rolle NE-Rodney Harrison.In most cases the cb were solid, but Pitt, Indy, NE ,Bal ( post Starks,McAllister ) not lights out.Eben Minn- Harrison smith.Theres a lot to be said for quite a few of these safeties that set a tone, but can also be all over and involved in tons of plays. Pass deflections, covering half a field to help a cb , run blitzes, hits on crossing patterns causing batted balls. Just think of Troy Polamaluo or Ed reed and game changing, key stops or turnovers they created to win games.They are involved in a higher % of plays since they are a safety net vs run and pass.Good ones never leave the field and can make a difference on any given play, tfl, int, sack, pass def. Also can set an attitude!!! The Rams were afraid to run across the middle or catch balls in traffic against TB back in the day.I do agree that a hip pocket corner like Ward is very valuable. Fantasy sports has changed our sport. They have a vested interest n generate large revenue streams- quick 3 step passes need tight blanket coverage.So CB is extremely important too.I just don't think they can contribute as much as a knowledgeable leader at S.

The Steelers reached on that one safety they had. What was his name, Troy Polamalu. He wasn't that valuable to their defense.

You shouldn't build your team around OT, OG, TE, C, S. Just follow what the majority of the league does. You should give other teams the opportunity to draft the guy that your team could have used the most.

When you follow, you win. Don't be leaders like Bill Walsh and Steve Spurrier. You will fail like them. Just do what everybody else does.

There are people everywhere who want to be the only one to speak. So I just ignore them. Literally.

real bucs fan wrote:So who wants to bet that Fitz gets drafted to play safety and not CB? Considering the value of CBs to Safety's, if he could play CB that's what he'd be drafted to play, right? Any takers?

Not to single you out since most casuals believe it to be true (and was stated by others in this thread) but safety play is more valuable than corner.

If not mistaken they are paid more on average....

And on the field while a stud corner can make things difficult on that side of the field a superstar safety is almost impossible to throw away from.

He's trouble all afternoon, run pass no matter where you go on the field he's going to make his presence known.

BTW what positions need to be improved, answer for us is the same as the other 31 teams - LOS.

Offensive/defensive lines.

Games are won there, the rest is just fluff for casual fans and fantasy football enthusiasts....

Patrick McIrish wrote:I think the original PMI would agree with us but I'm definitely a fake.

On a related note who is more valuable, MLB or OLB? Just asking for the people who think corners are more valuable than safeties.

I've said this many times, you want to win a LOT be strong up the middle...... and I don't care what sport we're talking about.

Control the middle of the rink, field, court, checker/chess board, diamond or whatever and you will beat a lot of opponents..

MLB of course. RB's make their money running up the middle. Too easy to be run down when they run outside by fast OLB's. I'm not saying they never have big runs outside, so you still need good, fast, sure tackling OLB's and sure tackling safeties to contain those runs. Overall, though, control the middle of the field and force offenses to work mainly on the outsides and your defense should be more successful... mostly.

real bucs fan wrote:So who wants to bet that Fitz gets drafted to play safety and not CB? Considering the value of CBs to Safety's, if he could play CB that's what he'd be drafted to play, right? Any takers?

Not to single you out since most casuals believe it to be true (and was stated by others in this thread) but safety play is more valuable than corner.

If not mistaken they are paid more on average....

And on the field while a stud corner can make things difficult on that side of the field a superstar safety is almost impossible to throw away from.

He's trouble all afternoon, run pass no matter where you go on the field he's going to make his presence known.

BTW what positions need to be improved, answer for us is the same as the other 31 teams - LOS.

Offensive/defensive lines.

Games are won there, the rest is just fluff for casual fans and fantasy football enthusiasts....

We move on.

I can agree with this assessment. Especially in today's NFL. A top safety can change an entire defense and be a very valuable X factor in multiple phases of the game. The NFL would agree too. Legion of Boom, who made it work? Earl Thomas followed by Cam Chancellor. Sherman looked human at times when he wasn't protected over the top. Steelers D hasn't been what it was when Polamalu was there. Bob Sanders made the Colts D relevant. The list goes on. That's why now my hope is Minkah Fitzpatrick is our guy.

real bucs fan wrote:So who wants to bet that Fitz gets drafted to play safety and not CB? Considering the value of CBs to Safety's, if he could play CB that's what he'd be drafted to play, right? Any takers?

Not to single you out since most casuals believe it to be true (and was stated by others in this thread) but safety play is more valuable than corner.

If not mistaken they are paid more on average....

And on the field while a stud corner can make things difficult on that side of the field a superstar safety is almost impossible to throw away from.

He's trouble all afternoon, run pass no matter where you go on the field he's going to make his presence known.

BTW what positions need to be improved, answer for us is the same as the other 31 teams - LOS.

Offensive/defensive lines.

Games are won there, the rest is just fluff for casual fans and fantasy football enthusiasts....

Patrick McIrish wrote:Not to single you out since most casuals believe it to be true (and was stated by others in this thread) but safety play is more valuable than corner.

If not mistaken they are paid more on average....

And on the field while a stud corner can make things difficult on that side of the field a superstar safety is almost impossible to throw away from.

He's trouble all afternoon, run pass no matter where you go on the field he's going to make his presence known.

BTW what positions need to be improved, answer for us is the same as the other 31 teams - LOS.

Offensive/defensive lines.

Games are won there, the rest is just fluff for casual fans and fantasy football enthusiasts....

We move on.

I can agree with this assessment. Especially in today's NFL. A top safety can change an entire defense and be a very valuable X factor in multiple phases of the game. The NFL would agree too. Legion of Boom, who made it work? Earl Thomas followed by Cam Chancellor. Sherman looked human at times when he wasn't protected over the top. Steelers D hasn't been what it was when Polamalu was there. Bob Sanders made the Colts D relevant. The list goes on. That's why now my hope is Minkah Fitzpatrick is our guy.

I would argue every example you listed "worked" because they all had nasty pass rushes, but I don't want to fight over 40 posts about it. One can read what one wants into these things.

Good safety play is certainly important and I'm not debating otherwise. But in terms of value NFL teams spend higher draft picks on CBs in addition to CBs making much more on 2nd contracts and/or in Free Agency.

So from a resource standpoint it's not much of an argument that NFL teams are willing to spend more for a CB than Safety.

I do agree than an elite Safety like Thomas, Berry, etc can dramatically effect a defense as much as an elite CB.

Justin Evans paired with Minkah would be an interesting Safety duo. While both are physical players they are also both around 200-210lbs and thus neither are really your traditional Strong Safety. But with the NFL these days legislating the physicality out of the game maybe getting Safeties that are playmakers with coverage ability and ball skills is more valuable that the physical tone setting types we usually see at Strong Safety.

It would also make identifying who is the FS or SS pre-snap very difficult as both Evans and Fitz would be interchangeable, and we know Mike Smith like that versatility in his two safeties on the field.

1a. RB is the biggest 'area' of concern for me, but I don't think that means it is first round pick worthy unless Saquon Barkley is available.1b. Safety is the second area I feel the Buccaneers are weak at. Chris Conte and Keith Tandy are not bad, but 3. DE sure they picked Jason Pierre-Paul and Vinny Curry, but I still think this is a need if for nothing else than a rotation.4. CB the Buccaneers need to get better in the secondary and have more depth.5. OT I would like to see the Buccaneers get better on the offensive line as well. If Quenton Nelson (G) is available and Barkley is not I would be happy with picking him up despite not being an offensive tackle. If not the team should try to add a solid player at OT.

Bootz2004 wrote:I can agree with this assessment. Especially in today's NFL. A top safety can change an entire defense and be a very valuable X factor in multiple phases of the game. The NFL would agree too. Legion of Boom, who made it work? Earl Thomas followed by Cam Chancellor. Sherman looked human at times when he wasn't protected over the top. Steelers D hasn't been what it was when Polamalu was there. Bob Sanders made the Colts D relevant. The list goes on. That's why now my hope is Minkah Fitzpatrick is our guy.

I would argue every example you listed "worked" because they all had nasty pass rushes, but I don't want to fight over 40 posts about it. One can read what one wants into these things.

If you've played football, or coached it, you know how important the middle of the field is.

Great corners can cover, safeties do that too and they're on field responsibilities are much more involved.

For Buc fans, Barber was a great corner but give me Lynch any day of the week.

Like all great safeties anything that moved coming over the middle paid dearly for the priviledge.

Safety is SO MUCH more important to a defense I'm not even going to try and convice you, at least it's a reasonable conviction even if incorrect.

We move on.

yeah but you and I both know sh*t done changed. Lynch would have been ejected from literally (I and I mean literally) every game had he played his same style game in the 2010+ era. Don't get me wrong, I hate it - and I would generally agree with your premise... but the gap between the value of an elite shut down corner and an elite middle-protecting safety is closing hard (if it hasn't already closed fully), just due to pussifying rule changes

If you've played football, or coached it, you know how important the middle of the field is.

Great corners can cover, safeties do that too and they're on field responsibilities are much more involved.

For Buc fans, Barber was a great corner but give me Lynch any day of the week.

Like all great safeties anything that moved coming over the middle paid dearly for the priviledge.

Safety is SO MUCH more important to a defense I'm not even going to try and convice you, at least it's a reasonable conviction even if incorrect.

We move on.

I don't altogether disagree with you, but was just pointing out the "value" of CBs compared to Safety when it comes to resource allocation (draft picks, salary cap) of NFL teams.

I completely agree with your opinion of how it's important to be strong up the middle in every sport. But as it relates to football I feel NFL teams are able to scheme around their safeties easier than with CBs b/c CBs are on an island and can't hide. But like I said before an elite safety can be just as valuable as an elite shutdown CB.

If you've played football, or coached it, you know how important the middle of the field is.

Great corners can cover, safeties do that too and they're on field responsibilities are much more involved.

For Buc fans, Barber was a great corner but give me Lynch any day of the week.

Like all great safeties anything that moved coming over the middle paid dearly for the priviledge.

Safety is SO MUCH more important to a defense I'm not even going to try and convice you, at least it's a reasonable conviction even if incorrect.

We move on.

yeah but you and I both know sh*t done changed. Lynch would have been ejected from literally (I and I mean literally) every game had he played his same style game in the 2010+ era. Don't get me wrong, I hate it - and I would generally agree with your premise... but the gap between the value of an elite shut down corner and an elite middle-protecting safety is closing hard (if it hasn't already closed fully), just due to pussifying rule changes

Yup, which is why I'm warming to the idea of Minkah Fitzpatrick for the Bucs, even if we drafted him to play Safety. He and Evans are both more of your traditional FS types instead of the enforcer SS type that plays in the box mostly. 20yrs ago I believe both would be CBs in the NFL.

These days DBs (specifically Safeties) have to be guys that can cover and make plays on the ball, not the man since that leads to personal foul penalties.

I'm not happy about it, but the days of Dennis Smith, Blain Bishop, John Lynch, Kam Chancellor types of SS are over. There are no more Christian Okoye's or Tight Ends that aren't threats in passing game so the Safety position has changed in that respect to where both Safeties have to be able to tackle well in the run game as well as cover the slot WR or TE running down the seam.

It isn't just the hitting rules that have changed, the playcalling on offense has adjusted to it, and the players being looked at for safety now have as well. Fitz isn't being considered a top prospect because he kills people crossing the middle. It's because he has elite coverage skills for a safety, he projects as a hybrid safety/corner. And that is much more valuable now with how heavily the ball goes over the shallow middle. You need a guy who can step up in the box and defend the run and can drop back to cover a slot WR or TE too.

The game has changed, and with it a lot of the old "positional value" dogma as well.

Caradoc wrote:It isn't just the hitting rules that have changed, the playcalling on offense has adjusted to it, and the players being looked at for safety now have as well. Fitz isn't being considered a top prospect because he kills people crossing the middle. It's because he has elite coverage skills for a safety, he projects as a hybrid safety/corner. And that is much more valuable now with how heavily the ball goes over the shallow middle. You need a guy who can step up in the box and defend the run and can drop back to cover a slot WR or TE too.

The game has changed, and with it a lot of the old "positional value" dogma as well.

Yep. I would argue that a guy with Minkah Fitzpatrick's skills set is more valuable than your traditional outside corners because he can defend multiple positions and phases of the game.