Thursday, January 26, 2012

Labianca Homicide Report II

Hello Folks! For anyone serious about studying this case in earnest... the Second LaBianca Homicide Report, is an important fact-filled document worthy of close inspection. Unfortunately, this document sat on my desktop for 6 months. There's so much material covered in these 23 pages... I simply couldn't find enough time, to do it justice. I asked Starship, if he would be so kind, as to dissect this lengthy document for us. Fortunately for us... Starship accepted the challenge... and the resulting thread is below. As always... Starship delivers in top form. Starship is a blogger, scholar, and gentleman who needs no introduction. I hope everyone truly avails themselves of Starship's fabulous research which follows. Now for Starship...===================================================================

Revisiting the LaBianca’s

At Lynyrd’s behest, I have studied closely the two official police progress reports on the LaBianca murders. If there is a third or a fourth, we’ve never seen them, and I doubt there is because of the dates of these documents…and that by December, 1969 pretty much all of the suspects were in custody and the Justice System had started its engine. What follows, hopefully, will be worth discussing. Perhaps we can glean more insight from the points made.

I had read long ago the first homicide report, as that one is readily available. Thanks to Lynyrd for getting me the second, as I’ve always wanted to review it, and, believe me, I was not disappointed.

Probably the biggest thing I found was that by the time the second report was submitted (October 15th), Charles Manson was indeed already identified as a suspect. It’s the how and the why he was identified as a suspect in this case which is really the interesting part…but more about this later.

To begin, let me start but saying that one of the overlooked people in this case who may have been insightful is a member of the LAPD by the name of Roxie Lucerelli who evidently was a good friend of Leno’s and who knew him for many years. He is mentioned in Bugliosi’s book and also in both homicide reports as someone who was interviewed about his knowledge of Leno and his activities. He may be a worthwhile pursuit for an interview even today, provided that he is still alive. I have no idea. More on him in a bit.

Next we need to consider the nature of the relationship between Leno and Rosemary. The second report specifically delves into whether or not Rosemary may have been bi-sexual and had engaged in lesbian relationships. This, much like the speculation regarding Steven Parent’s sexuality, may ultimately be much ado about nothing. But it is notable also because Rosemary really must have been something and, I apologize for my sexist male perspective on this, but I wish we had more photos of her to study because she apparently was alluring enough that one of the men she had a relationship with remained in love with her even after, even while, she was having an affair with the man she became pregnant with Suzan by (LaBerge). Rosemary totally ripped this first guy off too: furniture, cars and a coin collection (interesting because Leno was a coin collector, although she wouldn’t meet him until much later). Dude never called the police. Love is funny like that. Rosemary dated and LAPD guy too for a bit.

Frank Struthers & his Dad

Rosemary cheated on her first husband (Struthers)…who she had married only after cheating on her then boyfriend with him…and then continued to see even after she had married, and at least one person thought she continued to see Struthers while she was married to Leno…but Struthers denies this. Again, Rosemary is reported to have had close relationships with several women who were known lesbians and it is reported that people interviewed believed she herself had engaged in at least one specific lesbian relationship. Overall, Rosemary was described by men and women who knew her as being ‘sexually adventurous.’

Leno, on the other hand, is described as being ‘sexually cold.’ I have not read Alice LaBianca’s book, so I have no idea if any of this is touched upon there, but the one girlfriend of Leno’s who was found after his divorce was with a women who had been the wife of one of his buddies…but it was only long after she had broken up with her husband. She told the LAPD that Leno was self-conscious about his height, especially around taller women. There also is a rumor that Leno had dated a woman who was a known prostitute, but this is speculation only. No extra marital affairs on his part is implied at all.

Other good nuggets of information which is helpful to our quest to understand these murders are:

Rosemary complaining to a friend that she thought someone had broken into their house had occurred PRIOR TO 1968. The first report mentions some known burglars who had worked the neighborhood.

The LAPD searched Leno’s personal telephone book for old girlfriends to interview (is this the famed little black book?)

I can’t tell if Rosemary knew, but it was NOT a surprise to Leno’s family or his business partners (which, essentially were family too) that Leno was in debt and that he had been embezzling funds from Gateway Markets for the past few years. Leno, in fact, was making plans to leave the company and agreements in principle had been arranged for him to repay what he owed and for him to become involved in some sort of investment business. It’s a mystery as to whether or not Leno would have had the means to pay back everything he owed, and what is known appears to point towards that he wouldn’t despite the fact that he was re-financing everything he could and also cheated on the Supermarkets money order contracts as well, but his own mother was one of the owners of Gateway and she, of course, may have had a soft spot in her Italian mother’s heart for her little boy, Leno (here I am assuming she was Italian, but I do not know for sure), but she may have helped him off the hook eventually. If you don’t believe that, groove on this: Leno’s mother sold him the house on Waverly Drive for $18 grand! That’s $110Gs today. The property is assessed today at $450,000. Leno told his mother he made a large profit on his previous house when it sold too! What’s more is Leno apparently was purchasing a ranch house in another location as well…where he would get the money from this is unknown as well (it is also reported that rumor had it he owned some sort of property in Las Vegas).

A MEETING FOR ALL INVOLVED TO DISCUSS LENO LEAVING THE COMPANY WAS SCHEDULED FOR AUGUST 9TH BUT IT NEVER TOOK PLACE. Interesting. It seems it was known to at least one of his business partners that the major reason Leno was in such debt was because of his gambling habits.

What WAS a surprise to all involved here was the fact that Leno owned interest in a number of race horses, owning 8 of them in January 1969. (Kildaire Lady?). He had $$ tied up in the training and maintenance and upkeep for these horses…perhaps this is the business he was going to move into (along with three others) after his exit from Gateway? Lots of money needed for upkeep but no evidence of any profits derived from these horses to offset the losses.

Was the Mafia involved? Well, of course not, as there is no such thing as the Mafia. Just kidding. But the origin of this theory is explained here as well. Leno’s business partners, besides his mother, were his two brothers-in law. One of them was married to Leno’s sister, I assume the other one was too (a different sister, people!), and they all seemed to have known each other for most of their lives. One of the brothers-in-law (Smaldino) offered to the LAPD the suggestion that the murders were a result of a Mafia hit specifically motivated as a result of Leno’s gambling debts. The other brother-in-law (DeSantis) discounts this theory to the LAPD because he is a card carrying member and head of the Sons of Italy lodge and he believes that if the Mafia had been involved, then he would have known about it. Hmmmmm. My personal take on this is that it’s a possibility, but a remote one. Smaldino’s suspicion is not unreasonable given Leno’s gambling debts. DeSantis, however, is blowing smoke. If a Mafia hit is to blame, then no one in the know would have been talking about it…especially to the victim’s brother-in-law! I know what I’m talking about, believe me. Much speculation has centered around the fact that Leno had been on the board of Directors of the Hollywood National Bank which the LAPD had claimed was backed by “hoodlum money”, and that some associates of the bank had gone to prison because of a check kiting scheme through the bank. Leno was officially involved from 1964 to 1967. However he had in June 1969 succeeded in borrowing $15,000 from this very same bank. He apparently had tried to borrow money from his regular Bank of America, but was not successful. The boat that Leno owned was financed and the LAPD even looked into whether or not the marina where he bought it may have been connected to the Mafia, but it was not.

SO… Leno was a coin collector. The LAPD looked into this aspect as well, but did not glean anything useful. Leno’s LAPD buddy Roxie Lucerelli told the investigators that Leno had offered a collection to him for $20,000…a silver dollar collection Leno owned was sold just in July, 1969.

Now, before we get to the suspects, let’s ponder these last couple of nuggets: Several witnesses says they saw a male Caucasian on the lawn of the LaBianca’s house on Sunday, August 10th between 4 and 5pm, but they positively said it was NOT the gardener who told police he worked the property from 11am to 4pm that very same day. The gardener said he heard no sounds coming from the house except for the telephone ringing a call once. A security guard for the house to the west of the LaBianca residence told police he heard what he thought was a gunshot and the sounds of furniture being moved coming from their house between 4:45 and 5pm that same day (what is up with these lame security guards? Must be LAPD wannabes for sure as they’re certainly just as poor). Can you imagine? There the LaBiancas lay in death and the house is making noise and still no one calls the police!

Ok, now for the important parts: So the LAPD knows that Leno plays the horses, so they also begin to look into if he had any relationships with any bookies. As they look into this, they discover that a known bookmaker by the name of Edward Pierce lives right on Waverly Drive. The LAPD can’t find a connection, but start to investigate anyway, and discover that Pierce was the biggest bookie in LA until a bust in 1967. He also is a known associate of an underworld figure, who is associated with other underworld figures. Knowing people who know people, as I always say. When the LAPD arrive at the Pierce house on Waverly Drive on August 18th, they find out they have fled the area as the IRS has confiscated most of their personal property...WHICH INCLUDES AN EXTENSIVE COIN COLLECTION WHICH COMPARES VERY WELL WITH A “WANT LIST” OF COINS THAT LENO HAD IN HIS PERSONAL PAPERS. The LAPD cannot prove or disprove that these coins ever belonged to Leno, but they couldn’t find a single one of them in Leno’s own collections.

Next, let us consider Leonard Posella, Sharon Ransom, and Zorba the Greek. Posella hooked up with Ransom, because as a lawyer he defended her on a narcotics arrest. Posella himself, had been arrested for attempted murder after he was accused of trying to stab his then wife, Jean Bruckman, after he had beaten her pretty badly. Oh, and he got the knife from the drawer in the kitchen. This was in September of 1968. Before that, Bruckman claimed Posella tried to kill his own father with a kitchen knife as well, and that she and his stepmother had to intervene to stop it. Anyway, Bruckman told the LAPD that while she was married to Posella, she can remember at least seven occasions where while they were visiting Posella’s mother – who lived right next door to the LaBiancas-that Posella went over to visit the laBiancas and that EVERY TIME HE RETURNED HE HAD EITHER MONEY OR WHISKEY THAT HE SAID LENO HAD GIVEN HIM. When she asked about this she says Posella told her “it’s ok, I know them and they better give it to me or else.”

As for Ransom, Posella had to defend her in court several times. Her previous boyfriend was Zorba the Greek. Zorba had an extensive arrest record as well and claimed to be “a revolutionist” who liked to wear a Nazi armband. Oh, and the LAPD investigators learned that he and Sharon HAD BEEN MEMBERS OF THE SATAN’S SLAVES MOTORCYCLE GANG.

And so it is here that Charles Manson first appears…and it seems to be as a result of the LAPD investigating the Satan’s Slaves connections to the LaBiancas murders. This is where the LAPD investigating LaBianca, and the LASO investigating Hinman, finally come together. By the time of this second report, both Bobby Beausoleil and Susan Atkins are in custody under suspicion of the Hinman murder…which had words printed on the walls in the victim’s own blood. Katherine Lutesinger is also in custody on grand theft auto charges. She is a juvenile, and is found to have been living at the Spahn Ranch along with a number of others: hippies, motorcycle gang members. Motorcycle gang members? Yes, indeed the Satan’s Slaves. And oh, by the way, Lutesinger tells them…our leader there is this guy known as “Jesus Christ” and “God and the Devil”… and she tells the cops that someone told her that this leader, our own Charles Manson, was the guy who ordered Bobby Beausoleil and Susan Atkins, to go to Gary Hinman’s house and get all his money. Hinman, of course, was killed…and so leads the LAPD to place Charles Manson himself as a suspect in the murders of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca.

The report also concludes with noting that similarities occurred in the murders at Hinman, LaBianca and Tate.
﻿ ﻿

Suzan Struthers, 21, leaves her home in Los Angeles where her stepfather and mother, Mr. and Mrs.A. LaBianca were found murdered. With her is her boyfriend, Joe Dorgan.

﻿SO…the intrigue continues. The question I have been pondering is that of Rosemary’s daughter Suzanne, and her boyfriend Joe Dorgan. Was he a member of Satan’s Slaves or any other club?

A reliable blog source has told us:"Danny DeCarlo was treasurer of the Straight Satans... It's never been proven/substantiated that Joe Dorgan was a member of any bike club, and he personally denied it".

As far as the fact that he paid $18K for the house, that's not a big deal. Houses were much cheaper in that era. In 1967, the house next door to me sold for $12K, the one across the street sold for $17K. The last time either of them sold (about 15 years ago for the one that was $12K), the cost was over 6figures.

Great work Pristash, You have earned your blog cover top billing: researcher/scholar.

I am of the same mind as Katie on why would the mob kill Leno if he owed them money.It could be to intimadate someone else to pay up but his wife was murdered as well.

How about a deal between the the daughter and some party to have them murdered ? seems that after the fact the authorities would have looked at Susan L. and any money transaction after she received inheritance monies. Did she receive money ?

Starship, I thought that the first homocide report indicated that Joe Dorgan was in a motorcycle gang, but I re-read it today and it's not in there. Gotta find where I read it.

Anyway, in the first homicide report, it states that Rosemary and Suzanne were fighting about Suzanne seeing Dorgan.

Rosemary threatened to disinherit her. Suzanne stood to lose a LOT of money in that regard.

I know that it's not a proven fact that Charlie made any phone calls during his "drive around" that night, but I really think that when he got out of the car and was gone for a while, he went to a pay phone to call someone (Suzanne) to see if the LaBiancas were home. After that disappearing act, he made a beeline to the LaBianca home.

This is from the first homicide report on the LaBianca case regarding Suzanne:

>>>STRUTHERS, Suzan, aka Suzan Rae (no criminal record) Female Caucasian, DOB 2-27-48, 5-6, 130, brown/blue. Subject has had many disagreements with the victims over her relationship with Joseph Dorgan. She was a suspect in the fraudulent use of a credit card in January, 1968 (DR 68-429642) , involving Dorgan. Sgt. McRobbie, Van Nuys Forgery, investigated the case, but criminal prosecution was not sought because Mr. LaBianca made restitution.>>>

The LaBiancas were getting tired of bailing Suzanne out of the trouble she was getting into with Dorgan.

Katie, check out the 1967 ilm "Divorce American Style." Dick Van Dyke is telling his movie wife, Debbie Reynolds that he can't believe she's upset with her life because she has "this, this, this and a $40 thousand dollar house." That was in Los Angeles and the house was large. So, comparatively speaking, it's entirely possible that the LaBianca house might've been worth only $18K. Just adjust the prices. Everything was cheaper. I remember paying 10 cents for a stamp, that'll never happen again!!!!

This was a great synopsis of the report! After reading it, I saw that Starship definately caught the highpoints well. I was interested in the stolen gun that Joe Dorgan "acquired" for Frank. Apparently, he was not above the law on some things. I also found it interesting the way that CM was written up in the suspect list, but then, hindsight is always better.

On a side note, one of the "alledged" lesbians had an alias of "pudgy"? As the name implys, she must have been quite the woman.

I live in West Hollywood and I know the areas very well. That house by all means is NO mansion. They do have real mansions in the area though if you drive down Los Feliz blvd. you will see a bunch. That house is worth money because of the location. A small 900 sq foot Charlie Chaplin bungalow goes for 7 hundred thou. 900 SQUAE FEET(because of the location)! So that house is not a bungalow but is an average house, I would say 1200-2000 square feet, like I said it is in a very desirable neighborhood.

Hi Katie, did i really call it a bungalow, maybe i did, i don't remember. :) If i had to guess i'd call it spanish colonial, or maybe mission style...i think it may have originally had the little mission bell window over the front door...

I think of California Bungalow as more of the Craftsman style...big windows and veranda type porches, lots of hard woods, beautiful roof lines.

Anyway, i agree with you, i think 18K is low for that property even for those days. The house was beautifully situated on a large sloping lot....before someone cut it up and destroyed it for concrete and a carport.

But i think that buying and selling between family members isn't necessarily always for market value...

Haven't had time to get into Starship's report yet, but saw my name mentioned and wanted to respond. Glad you're here Katie...speaking truth! :)

Thanks for elaborating on California real estate value. I know virtually nothing about it except what I've read currently.

>>>Starship said: Rosemary complaining to a friend that she thought someone had broken into their house had occurred PRIOR TO 1968. The first report mentions some known burglars who had worked the neighborhood.>>>

Prior to 1968? Meaning 1967 or before? That would be obviously be a different house other than Waverly Drive. And obviously not the Manson Family. Interesting....

>>>A MEETING FOR ALL INVOLVED TO DISCUSS LENO LEAVING THE COMPANY WAS SCHEDULED FOR AUGUST 9TH BUT IT NEVER TOOK PLACE.>>>

I wonder why not. Because Leno was at the lake????? Or did he go to the lake because it was cancelled?

The Los Feliz area is certainly not Beverly Hills or Bel Air, but it is not an inexpensive area. The homes are older, but by and large, in very good condition in a very nice area. I visited all of the murder homes a couple of weeks ago as well as the site of Spahn Ranch, and none of the areas are low-end areas. The area that I moved to is Encino, where many "Hollywood types" live(Boy do I fit in, LOL), and the cost of these homes are certainly in the millions of dollars here, but in other cities they would go for far less. So it defeninately location, location, location. It is all relative. I would not mind living in the Los Feliz area, it is a very nice part of town.

I'm still thinking that the hoouse could've been worth only $18k (but not saying it was) simply because of this: was that considered a nice part of town? Was Los Feliz a nice area? It might've been cheaper then because the area could've been considered a bit run-down THEN.

But, yes, of course, mama might've just given her son a discount. I guess we'll never know for sure.

Interesting thought about the meeting. Perhaps the meeting was going to be held without Leno so they could discuss what to do about him??

>>>I live in West Hollywood and I know the areas very well. That house by all means is NO mansion. They do have real mansions in the area though if you drive down Los Feliz blvd. you will see a bunch.>>>

That's what I was thinking. The interior of that house wasn't that great. It looked pretty "plain jane" to me. Even the house next door (True's) looked much better.

Katie said>>>> katie8753 said...Oh Marliese. I forgot to ask....is Los Feliz an expensive part of town?<<<<<<<

Hi Katie, looks as though others have it covered for you, so really no need for me to chime in...but what the heck, have a few minutes, maybe i will anyway! :)

Some areas of what's called Los Feliz are very expensive...old money wealth. But like any neighborhood or district, there are levels...the Waverly house is not in the high end area of Los Feliz...

It's wealthier up by the Greek Theater and the Griffith park area of Los Feliz...beautiful old homes, gorgeous architecture, pretty filthy rich if you ask me.

otoh, you know...when the Waverly house was built, it was probably considered extremely nice...smaller spanish hacienda type custom homes on sloping lots, sweeping views...before the lots were divided, no noisy freeway around the corner. It was very beautiful, i'm sure. But it's not the high end Los Feliz...which is very, very expensive.

I'd guess it gets less expensive the closer you get to the Silverlake area...still though, it would have been considered a nice area back mid century and before then...when that house was likely built.

Thanks for explaining more about the area Marliese. We've got some areas here that are similar. A small 2-bedroom 1-bath condo in a certain area could bring up to $200,000 or a 5-bedroom 3-bath house would bring the same in a different area.

It's interesting that the end of the report talks about Hinman's murder and the similarities between Hinman and LaBianca. The writing on the wall in the victim's blood and a pillow over the face of Hinman.

I don't remember Hinman having a pillow on his face. Am I forgetting an important detail????

It mentions that Bobby couldn't have been involved in LaBianca because he was in jail, but Susan could because she wasn't.

Moreover, the My Lai Massacres happened in March of 1968. Between 300-500 Viet Nam Villagers were slaughted in that military operation. Many of them children clinging to their mothers who had no sway in how this war went.

What sort of person would not be outraged and not react to what was being covered up by the American government?

**Mafia Hit“One of the brothers-in-law (Smaldino) offered to the LAPD the suggestion that the murders were a result of a Mafia hit specifically motivated as a result of Leno’s gambling debts“.

**Hoodlum Money“Much speculation has centered around the fact that Leno had been on the board of Directors of the Hollywood National Bank which the LAPD had claimed was backed by “hoodlum money”, and that some associates of the bank had gone to prison because of a check kiting scheme through the bank. Leno was officially involved from 1964 to 1967. However he had in June 1969 succeeded in borrowing $15,000 from this very same bank. He apparently had tried to borrow money from his regular Bank of America, but was not successful“.

**Bookie with extensive (Leno's?) coin collection… Edward Pierce“So the LAPD knows that Leno plays the horses, so they also begin to look into if he had any relationships with any bookies. As they look into this, they discover that a known bookmaker by the name of Edward Pierce lives right on Waverly Drive. The LAPD can’t find a connection, but start to investigate anyway, and discover that Pierce was the biggest bookie in LA until a bust in 1967. When the LAPD arrive at the Pierce house on Waverly Drive on August 18th, they find out they have fled the area as the IRS has confiscated most of their personal property...WHICH INCLUDES AN EXTENSIVE COIN COLLECTION WHICH COMPARES VERY WELL WITH A “WANT LIST” OF COINS THAT LENO HAD IN HIS PERSONAL PAPERS. The LAPD cannot prove or disprove that these coins ever belonged to Leno, but they couldn’t find a single one of them in Leno’s own collections“.

**Criminals/Bribery and Satan’s Slaves“Next, let us consider Leonard Posella, Sharon Ransom, and Zorba the Greek. Posella hooked up with Ransom, because as a lawyer he defended her on a narcotics arrest. Posella himself, had been arrested for attempted murder after he was accused of trying to stab his then wife, Jean Bruckman, after he had beaten her pretty badly. Oh, and he got the knife from the drawer in the kitchen. This was in September of 1968. Before that, Bruckman claimed Posella tried to kill his own father with a kitchen knife as well, and that she and his stepmother had to intervene to stop it. Anyway, Bruckman told the LAPD that while she was married to Posella, she can remember at least seven occasions where while they were visiting Posella’s mother – who lived right next door to the LaBiancas-that Posella went over to visit the laBiancas and that EVERY TIME HE RETURNED HE HAD EITHER MONEY OR WHISKEY THAT HE SAID LENO HAD GIVEN HIM. When she asked about this she says Posella told her “it’s ok, I know them and they better give it to me or else.”

As for Ransom, Posella had to defend her in court several times. Her previous boyfriend was Zorba the Greek. Zorba had an extensive arrest record as well and claimed to be “a revolutionist” who liked to wear a Nazi armband. Oh, and the LAPD investigators learned that he and Sharon HAD BEEN MEMBERS OF THE SATAN’S SLAVES MOTORCYCLE GANG.

And so it is here that Charles Manson first appears…and it seems to be as a result of the LAPD investigating the Satan’s Slaves connections to the LaBiancas murders“.

There is no way, in my opinion, that the Mob had anything to do with the LaBianca murders. Mob hits are quick and clean, not lengthy, brutal stabbings. As katie and others have said, why would the Mafia outsource a hit to the Manson Family? Why wouldn't they just kill the LaBiancas themselves?

Maury Terry's book, "The Ultimate Evil" has been dismissed as hoopla for its far reaching contention that a satanic network is/was behind many of histories infamous crimes.

It is a stretch.

Nevertheless the section that deals with the Manson crimes is fascinating reading. Maury and his team of investigators did a great job digging into the case.Motive is explored in detail.....especially the LaBianca murders.

The chapters concerning Manson make "The Ultimate Evil" worth the read.

sbuch, yes Terry's book has been dismissed by many. I know that when I read it many years ago, it scared me for a long time. No other book had such an effect on me. It's mostly about the Son of Sam murders and I was born and raised in NY and was living there at the time of the Sam killings. Terry believes a Satanic cult was behind Sam and the same cult was behind TLB. He also believed that drugs, both taking them and selling them, were a big part of this cult. I now believe that David Berkowitz was responsible for only two of the Sam killings and the Carr brothers, his neighobors, were responsible for the others. The Carrs both died after Berkowitz was convicted. One in a car accident and the other was murdered. I found the TLB part of Terry's book more difficult to follow, but I think he also believed Rosemary was selling drugs. I wish I could remember why he thought she was wearing that dress over her nightgown...

I'm from New Jersey. That means I am not scholarly or overly attentive to facts,details, reports or theorys. The simplest explanation is probably the most accurate one.

Look at our Governor. He must weigh 300 pounds. But people love him. They want him to be the GOP Vice President.

He talks like a character from the Sopranos. I actually met Chris Christie at a party at the University of Delaware back in the 1980's. He was a bully than shaking kids down for whatever they had for some lame keg party.

Hi CarolMR,Maury Terry points out a few anomalies concerning the LaBianca murders.

The dress Rosemary wore over her evening gown is one of them.Terry offers a couple possible scenarios.The first and in many ways the most likely is that Manson told her to put it on before he tied her.Rosemary dressed in a nightgown.....coward and covered herself in Manson's presence. In an effort to keep her '"calm" he had her put it on. I believe Manson himself has said he did this.

Another scenario Maury puts forth is that Rosemary put the dress over her gown herself before leaving the house temporarily......for an unknown reason before the killers arrived.

The LaBianca's car and boat were found parked on the street. Relatives and friends later said Leno never left it there, instead always backing it up the drive.....something Rosemary was incapable of doing.The theory then is someone pulled it off the drive, later parking it on the street. Rosemary? Why?

Another Maury scenario- After tying up Leno, Manson had Rosemary dress to accompany him somewhere outside the house.To obtain money she said they had in a safe at a Gateway Market?

Were the LaBianca murders committed to obscure the legitimate motive for the Tate massacre?

>>>sbuch said: The first and in many ways the most likely is that Manson told her to put it on before he tied her. Rosemary dressed in a nightgown.....coward and covered herself in Manson's presence. In an effort to keep her "calm" he had her put it on. I believe Manson himself has said he did this.>>>

Sbuch I think I recall Manson saying this too. But as far as I can tell, Rosemary wasn't tied up.

I can understand her wanting to cover up with a strange man in her bedroom, but why not use a robe or something??

According to the police report, Suzanne said that was a very expensive dress - $485. The dress was ruined of course with knife holes.

Hi Katie,If we go with the Bugliosi/Kasabian description of the LaBianca murders.....that Manson alone entered the home and tied up the couple.....then he must have bound Rosemary.....otherwise she would have surely escaped or phoned the police in his absence.

>>>>Why have we not won a war since World War II, which the English and the Russians pretty much did the heavy lifting.<<<<

America's "Lend Lease" policy allowed both Britain and Russia to stay afloat long enough to get their own arms production capabilities in order.

Britain did not do the "Heavy Lifting" as you stated. The RAF held off the German Luftwaffe thus forcing Germany to cancel Operation Sealion which would have resulted in the invasion of England had the RAF been annihilated.

I admire those RAF pilots who fought with their backs to a wall at a time when Germany seemed invincible and a time when England stood alone. As Winston Churchill had once stated, "This was their Finest Hour" - But the Heavy Lifting was done by Soviet Russia.

Adolf Hitler had thrown 3/4 of the German War Machine at the Soviets thinking them to be nothing more than subhuman animals. Their moronic view of eugenics allowed these Nazi clowns to think of themselves as a "Master Race" but Joseph Stalin showed these inferior creatures who the "Master Race" actually was.

It was a barbaric war that took human cruelty and barbarism to levels that were never before seen in warfare. After the loses at Stalingrad and Kursk, the average German soldier came to think of his Russian counterpart as more "Super Human" than "Sub human".

The D-Day invasion by the allies came late at a time when the Red Army was close to driving into Poland where the Red Army would eventually liberate the Auschwitz-Berkenau Death Camp.

Adolf Hitler became so desperate as to throw his last 500,000 combat troops against the British and American forces (Battle of the Bulge) in an attempt to force the Western Allies to sue for peace so that he could find a way to stop the Russian Advance to the West. Once this attack failed, the war was totally lost. There was no chance for a negotiated peace with anyone.

The Red Army was feared by the Germans and they were not afraid to take whatever casualties were necessary to achieve victory. This was not the case for the British and Americans who allowed the Red Army to take Berlin which they did.

America may have briefly supplied the arms, uniforms and munitions for British and Russian deployment but it was the Red Army that supplied the blood that broke the back of Hitler's 3rd Reich.

The British had impressive victories in North Africa but they were nothing compared to the carnage that was going on within Soviet Russia.

Sbuch, I really doubt that Manson went in alone and tied up Leno. Even as "Manson" as he is, I don't think he could have held the gun and tied him up by himself. I think Tex's version is more plausible, that he tied Leno up.

The coroner's report says that Rosemary's hands weren't tied. After Leno was tied, I think Tex just stayed there while Charlie went back to the car and got Leslie & Pat.

View #1) These murders were senseless killings.The killings were the unfortunate result of crazy people... doing crazy things... led by a crazy man.Given their lifestyle, the drugs, their decisions, etc... it's easily observable... that these folks were completely bonkers at the time of the murders... and during the subsequent trial.This theory is really quite viable.They were quite simply NUTS... and they were.

View #2)Leno had a major gambling habit... and owed large amounts of money to the wrong person(s).Whether it be "the Mafia", or a "biker gang" who eventually had him "straightened out"... the murders were motivated by these more practical motives.This theory is also viable...

I really believe, these are the two most likely scenarios, one can assume regarding the LaBianca's demise.

#1) The family WAS bat-shit crazy...

#2) Leno DID have a major gambling problem (which never leads to good things).People never enjoy talking poorly about the deceased... especially folks slaughtered so viciously... and rightfully so.I don't either.No one "deserves" this kind of slaughter.No one could make that argument... nor, would I want to.But... fact is... Leno WAS a hardcore gambler.The facts and figures to support that notion, can be easily accessed.

What do I think?It's either number one, or number two! AHahahaha

I will say this though:In regards to number two... I believe the "biker" connection, is more likely than the "mob" connection.

It's unlikely, that Mobsters would do that kind of "business" with "the family".

Along the "biker" lines... Starship's section about Leonard Posella, Sharon Ransom, and Zorba the Greek... is very interesting.

Quite simply:There was either a "practical" motive for these murders... or there wasn't.

If you're looking for something senseless and "impractical"... you've certainly come to the right place (and the right "family")!

If you're looking for something "practical"... you have to look seriously at the gambling debts.It's quite simply the most practical motive, one can reliably un-earth.

Great synopsis Lynyrd. And the X factor has to be Charlie's actions as they were driving around, doesn't it. I mean if one is chosing between the two options. Those stops, and disappearances, and supposed phone calls by Charlie are the mystery.But then you have Manson wanting to shoot the guy they pulled up along side of, so that speaks to randomness.As Billy Shakespeare said, random or not random, that is the question.

Wow, great stuff on WWII Nimrod.And yes Katie, I am easy to please - a hockey game and some good conversation and I am in seventh heaven. I figure Mother Mary might be a hockey fan coming from Wisconsin. And Patty would just enjoy the mayhem.One other thing, Katie. I know we have had a thousand conversations on these blogs trying to relate to the Family mindset. Honestly, the book that has helped me the most is called Captured, about a half dozen or so white kids taken by the Comanches from our neck of the woods. The way these kids so quickly adapted and adopted the Indian ways, and several went on to participate in savage attacks with the Comanches, and remained fiercely loyal to the Indians even after being returned to white society....for some reason it just reminds me of the Family mindset. I know it sounds nuts and several posters have ridiculed me for the analogy, but it works for me so who cares.Drop the puck.

You know Jimmy, if I joined a cult, knowing that 99% of cults are run by misogynistic, over-sexed, child molesting men, I'd lay odds that within 24 hours of my induction, that either I'd be be-headed or burned at the stake OR the whole encampment would be in flames.

Leary I can well imagine that a hockey game would be enjoyable if you're a fan, but imagining that the company of Mother Mary and Big Patty would enhance the moment seems dubious to me. Talk about having a date with a mute. The most you could hope for is a "cat fight". LOL.

You've mentioned the book about the captured white kids before and I see the analogy, but the only difference is that these kids weren't "captured". They willingly followed a jobless, homeless con man.

with a ton of respect, I am going to differ with you a bit here Katie. I do think one could argue that several of the Family members were captured psychologically and spiritually. And the fact is that the vast majority of the Comanche captives, when given the chance to return to white society and their biological families, flat out refused.So, of course you are right that the manner in which they came to find themselves part of a radical and savage-prone "tribe" was radically different, allot of what followed afterwards has some corelation. It is that mindset that I am talking about - how they adapted and adopted the ways of the tribe.

As far as Mary and Pat are concerend, Katie, they are the two Manson women who interest me the most. Most of the guys would chose the good-looking Ruth Ann or Gypsy or such, but conversation-wise I personally think Pat and Mary would be the two most provocative to interact with. But that is just me.I am guessing Tom would want to take Leslie instead of Pat. I wonder who Lynyrd would take.

If I drove across the United States to see a girl in prison, and I never would, but let's say that I did.

She comes out with me. Orange jump suit and all. These correctional officers are about the same caliber as postal workers. You don't think I couldn't bamboozle one of these clowns? After a 3000 mile drive?

The big LVH, horseteeth, comes out with me onto Chino-Corona Road and I'd have to turn up Katrina and theWaves walking on sunshine on the radio.

yeah, Tom, I would love to write a script for Pat to say to the board..."Look, I know there is a song and dance you want me to do. You want me to crumble, to flail myself like a Middle Eastern mourner. And you are going to ask me dozens of questions that only the Pat Krenwinkle of 1969 could possibly answer.I understand that it is hard for you to believe I am not her, I am not that person. The simple truth is that I hate that person. I hate how she got so wasted on drugs that she had no core, no conscious. And I hate how she let herself be duped and manipulated by a two-bit cold-blooded con man.And most of all I hate what the Pat Krenwinkle of 1969 did to those innocent people - to Abigal and Rosemary and Leno. I literally die inside everytime I think about them, so I have to force myself to not think about it in order to survive.But you don't want to hear that, you want to hear that I think about what I did all the time, and that I suffer every minute of the day, that every morning I wake up screaming and every night I go to bed crying.But when I rejected Manson and what he stood for, I had to make a decision on how to live the rest of my life. I had to commit to being a good person, to contributing to society and people in the best way I could. I had to refocus on positive aspects of life. And I think my record shows I have done that. If you want to talk to that person, I am here. If you want to talk to Pat Krenwinkle of 1969, I am sorry, but she is long gone.I have a core now, a strong one. And I have a conscious too, a strong one. That is what rehabilitation is, is it not - the development of a strong core and conscious where there was none before.Let's be honest here, there are no words or actions I can do in the ten minutes I have before the board to prove that core and conscious - the proof of their existence lies in the record of the life I have lived in the last 35 or so years. If you can't look at that record, and see the person I have become, instead of judging me through the lens of '69, then I am lost and truthfully we are just wasting each others time here.Do I deserve to suffer my entire life for what I did as a crazed teenager in 1969? The answer is yes. And I assure you I will suffer everyday for the rest of my life.But that is not the question we are ostensibly addressing here today. The question is am I the same person I was in 1969. Or have I restored and rehabilitated my core and conscious.I know the answer to that question. And I believe if you look at my record for the nearly half century that has passed since 1969 with a fair and open mind, you might come to the same answer.Unless the board can look at me not as a so-called Manson girl or disciple, but instead see me as a deeply repentive and remorseful murderer who has worked diligently to become a completely different soul than I was in 1969, then nothing will change for me. I will do my time, and I will die here. The person I have become will die here, paying the price for the person I once was.Obviously, I am aware that many would argue that is justice. But if our justice system is based on treating everyone, every murderer amongst us, equally and fairly - wether black or white, rich or poor, anonymous or notorious - and that same system is based on the concept of rehabilitation...all I can do is ask you to judge me thusly.See the person before you. Please.Judge her.

probably true Tom. Pat '69 did mock the man. But she hasn't mocked in decades now. She is clearly a prisoner of notoriety. But while I accept that we live in a celebrity culture, I am old-fashioned enough to believe that our judicial system should not be based on the same mores and perceptions.The law should be applied equally to all. If it is not, everything crumbles.Which some would say is what is happening today.

No. I've never once implied that nor have I ever made a claim like that. I don't "Self Promote" unlike others. That implies that i'm looking for something which i never was.

TomG said...

>>>>If I were to say something stupid, I'd probably say...

If I drove across the United States to see a girl in prison, and I never would, but let's say that I did.<<<<

If you did make that trip, i'm sure that girl must have been something very special.

I'd like to think that she cared enough to appreciate the sacrifice that you made for her so that you could enter into her world be it only for a short time.

Charles Manson once said that "All Men are Jesus Christ" and, for a brief moment in time, you become her one salvation. You become the only one who can forgive her for her sins and who can see her as a woman instead of just as an inmate.

You give her something to build off of. You make her feel good about herself again and you teach her to believe that her life is not something that's worthless but is something that has value and is something that is worth fighting for.

Perhaps one day Tom, you'll truly understand what it means to be Jesus Christ.

Leary, Do a google search on : Mary Jemison. I think you will enjoy her story and the fact that she was captured as a teenager by native americans. I live in close proximity to wher she her adult life.

Leary7 said:>>>"And the X factor has to be Charlie's actions as they were driving around, doesn't it. I mean if one is chosing between the two options. Those stops, and disappearances, and supposed phone calls by Charlie are the mystery".<<<<

Good point Leary.If we knew for certain, what went-on during that ride... the purpose of it (if there was one)... and what really happened (or didn't) during those much discussed "stops"... it would be very revealing, to say the least.

I have to say... I rather liked the narrative you wrote for Pat's next parole hearing.

It's well-written. It's just as convincing, as anything Pat has previously said, at parole hearings... and most of all, it's realistic and accurate.I'm all for, realism and accuracy.

The beauty part of it... is that, if she's denied parole, after that type of speech... she can walk away from the hearing with dignity... knowing that she expressed remorse, sympathy... and her current situation in a frank manner... without groveling.

Thanks, sbuch113, for detailing Maury Terry's ideas about Rosemary's dress. Now I seem to recall reading that Terry said Rosemary was on her way out of the house as one possible scenario. Did you read the book?

thnks Bobby, I did read about Mary.Being from the east myself I must confess to a bias in my belief that the Seneca and other eastern tribes were more civilized than the plains Indians. I know it is not true, some of the plains Indian tribes were highly civilized, but it just seems that way to me. Regional bias I suppose. But Mary's story is a remarkable and inspirational one for sure. Thanks for tipping me to it.

I'm with ya on most things Lynyrd, but Lynn just doesn't seem like the hockey fan type to me. More of a roller derby type of gal.

ah, very good point Katie. I was unaware they were required to discuss the crime. That is interesting. It almost seems like the ultimate spiritual conundrum - they've spent the majority of their lives distancing themselves from the events of '69 and becoming as radically different a person as possible from what they you were then...and then the parole board demands that they - what? Detail the facts, inventory their mindset during the commission of the crime, what? I agree the parole applicant should be able to convey not just remorse but a true sense of the magnitude of the pain and suffering they have caused...but both Pat and Leslie seem to have done that earnestly.Please don't get me wrong Katie. I believe given the henious nature of her actions, Pat should be incarcerated for life. They should have had a sentance of life without parole back then, and especially for all the death row inmates who were pardoned by the repeal.But that is not how the law is written, and Pat and Leslie should be held to the same standards as other murderers applying for parole. We all know that is never going to happen because of the name Manson, I am just saying in a just world it would.

Leary I agree with you in full. I think Pat is the most reticent of all of them. In fact, I think she it the ONLY one who is truly reticent.

But you have to understand one thing. Every 4 to 7 years when these people come up for parole, their hearing could well be attended by people or persons who are not familiar with the Manson case (I know that seems hard to believe, but there are people out there who just haven't heard about it).

As such, the crimes have to be enumerated. In excrutiating detail.

It's not just with Pat, et al, it's with every parolee. So it's not like they're being singled out.

Having said that...I agree that if this wasn't such a heinous crime, Pat, et al, might have already been released into society.

They were given death, and then commuted to life. I agree that they should have just been given life without parole, but I think it was the entire death sentence population who got sentences commuted, so they couldn't differentiate without another penalty trial.

If you'll remember that movie "Shawshank Redemption" (one of my favs), at the first of the movie, Morgan Freeman is sitting before the parole board, and he's describing his crime, and saying that he was young and foolish and he's grown now and knows he was wrong, yada yada, and the next thing you see is PAROLE DENIED stamped on his card.

I could go on and on about that movie, because when he finally gets out, he's so confused and unhappy he wishes he was back in.

one of the greatest films ever Katie, mostly because it took place in Maine. just kidding.what was the last truly great movie? none on the oscar list this year seemed 'great' or classic to me. I mean a movie that could hold its own against The Godfather or Shawshank or Dances With Wolves or The Fugitive or The Sting or such. I honestly can't think of a movie that I have seen in several years that could qualify as a classic.Maybe I am just an old fart is all.

These folks should have gotten life "without" the possibility of parole... when the death penalty was commuted.

Unfortunately... That's not how the law was writtien... and hence, they ARE eligible for parole.

And (as you said)... by law... these folks SHOULD recieve the same parole consideration(s), as any other person eligible (for parole).

It's their sentence... and it's the law.

Fact is (as you said)... they don't receive the same exact parole consideration (as others)... in the truest sense.

Because, (as you said)... they're forever tied to the name "Manson"... and all that name, entails and conjures.The "Manson" mystique, is quite simply, a ball-and-chain they will never begin to shake... until Manson finally dies.

After Manson dies... a "dis-association" with all things evil may begin... and they might finally be judged according to their heinous crimes (and their subsequent rehabilitation) alone.

Bottom line:Their association with "Manson"... definitely hinders their tiny chance of parole, even further.They're forever "handicapped" in that regard... for lack of a better word.It may be the difference between 1 in a million... vs.... 1 in 2 million... but, it's still a palatable difference.

Even beyond the parole board's approval (which is step 1)...I believe with most Governors (which is step 2)... the name of "Manson" is STILL a huge obstacle.

I am anxious to read King's "11-23-63" Katie. I've never been a huge fan of his gendre, but he is one talented bastard.I just went over the lists of films for all the years in this century. One year the best film according to the rankings was George Clooney in "Up in the Air"...which was for me as unmemorable film as ever made. Unless one is into The Lords of the Rings stuff I really can't see any epic films made in the past decade or so. Lots of pleasant good films like The King's Speech you just mentioned, but nothing epic like Indiana Jones or such. I seem to recall reading recently that the film that won the Oscar a few years ago, The Hurt Locker, made something like 17 million in the States. A film isn't regarded as a real success unless it grosses over 100 million.

which makes it, Lynyrd, all the more unfathomable that the rat bastard Clem has been walking around a free man the last 25 years or so. I guess Shorty just wasn't as "significant" a victim as the TLB victims. It pisses me off no end. If I had the means and the balls I'd round up a posse and bring old Scramblehead to justice.

Leary I was never a fan of Lord of the Rings, that Harry Potter stuff or the Twilight trainwreck, I'm a fan of the old classics like you mentioned, Godfather, The Sting, Jaws, Barry Lyndon, stuff from the 70's.

Going down a few thousand pegs, today I also caught "Under Siege" with Steven Seagal.

Blow and Dead Man Walking, for me, fall into that category of really good movies but fall short of being classics.John Ford said a classic has at least three really memorable scenes. When I think of Moonstruck or As Good As It Gets there are several specific scenes that have stayed with me always, I can recite all the lines.Of course, I can recite the entire dialogue of Jeremiah Johnson, so I am a weirdo.

the role I loved Hanks in the most was as the baseball manager in A League of Their Own. Remember his pissing scene?and when he is thanking God for the waitress in Racine..."you know the one I am talking about, she kept calling your name".loved that line.

They may have tried a diminished capacity defense with Clem and he may have scored poorly on IQ testing or shown to be of low IQ from school records. But, back then people faked and got away with it more than they can now. Plus his test scores could have been horribly affected by being high or not having cleared the drugs either back in school or after the murders. And yes I agree that he plays in a band now and seems self-sufficient would indicate that he cannot be that stupid.

yeah, Grogan's "back story". I would have to put that up with the Red and Blue trip to Wisconsin to lobby Mother Mary as stories I would like to see told. You're dead on as usual Lynyrd, there had to be some connection there for him to 'luck out' as he did. Shorty remains pissed off as hell from his vantage point.

sbuch113, I didn't know Terry's book had been re-released with updates. I will have to look into it. If I have the nerve, that is. Seriously, that book scared the hell out of me. So do you think Terry is out of his mind or do you think he made some valid and interesting points?

"The coroner's report says that Leno & Rosemary died sometime in the afternoon of August 10th.

But from everything I've read, it occurred around 2:00 or 3:00am." - katie

Thanks, katie, for stating what I was too afraid to say! I thought I was just not understanding something about the LaBiancas' time of death. I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds it confusing.

Lynyrd said: "After Manson dies... a "dis-association" with all things evil may begin... and they might finally be judged according to their heinous crimes (and their subsequent rehabilitation) alone."

I would bet that must really grate on Bobby B. Thinking that if Manson would just kick, I might have a shot at getting out. Tex must know he ain't getting out even if Manson could die twice.

Lynyrd! You and I could seriously hang. I like all the things you like (except the Patriots). Even though there is snow today, which will melt tomorrow, I saw people playing golf near the Turning Stone Casino yesterday (and I didn't see Squeaky either...damn!)

Tom, ummmmm I guess I'll only say this: Yes, My Lai was an awful awful thing. I have nightmares about it still...but the Brits doing the heavy lifting during WW II? No freaking way. Their country suffered alot, it's true, but those limeys still stopped for tea every afternoon too. Bastards!

Don't use that word. I'm not "Famous". As Manson would say, "I'm a Hobo", "I'm a Nobody", "I'm a box car and jug of wine".

John Waters is "Famous" but he's already sold his soul to the Devil. I haven't. I'm holding out for a higher price :-)

I'm just a shadow in the night; a warm breeze whistling through the trees on the night of August 8, 1969.

>>>> Tom, ummmmm but the Brits doing the heavy lifting during WW II? No freaking way. Their country suffered alot, it's true, but those limeys still stopped for tea every afternoon too. Bastards!<<<<

Tom is a terribly confused man when it comes to history.

America's biggest feat in WW2, at least in the european theater, was the launching of the D-Day invasion, which to be quite honest with you, they didn't even need because the Red Army would have eventually reached the English Channel at the rapid pace that they were advancing. The Germans were scared shitless of the Russians and even Hitlers Balkan allies declared war on Germany once the russians were at their doorsteps. Italy had already surrended and their army was a joke even at the outset of the war.

The Russians were in the process of driving into Poland even before the first allied landing craft had even left their embaration ships in the english channel. Had the Red Army just bunkered down for a while, Hitler would have wiped out the allied invasion of Normandy but the Red Army was like a knife at Hitler's throat in 1944 and he was frantically trying to find a way to stop the Red Army from advancing west into the balkans and beyond.

This nonsense about the western allies being a factor in the war was a complete joke.

The only "Heavy Lifting" the Brits were engaged in was the evacuation of Dunkirk and they can thank Hitler for allowing Herman Goering to screw that one up.

The Russians faced Germany and a vast number of their allies on the eastern front in some of the most viscious and bloodiest and cruelest battles ever known to mankind and they emerged victorious.

The Defeat of Germany was paid for with Russian Blood. Had that stupid D-Day invasion not happened, All of Europe would have belonged to Mother Russia and Joseph Stalin would have been recognized as one of the greatest military leaders since Alexander the Great.

First off, fame is not achieved by one's own acclaim. It is arrived at by consensus, by the perception of the people.Wether you like it or not, Jim, you have achieved a level of "fame" or certainly notoriety in the Manson blog world. Deal with it.Second, I would like to invite you to Boston to my next family reuinion where you can explain to everyone how my three uncles who died in WWII in Europe were just part of a "factor in the war that was a complete joke". Or maybe the families of some of the other 400k U.S casualties could invite you over.Lately it has been politically correct to make allowances and excuses for you, but clearly you are the most abrasive and deluded azzhole in blog world. Do you just say stuff like this just to goad folk into battle with you? Pathetic, really.

to paraphrase the old Animal's song, with someone like Jim around, I "need to get out of this place" for awhile.Maybe I'll put together a cyber posse and head out in search of the Col and the Saint and other MIA's.

>>>>First off, fame is not achieved by one's own acclaim. It is arrived at by consensus, by the perception of the people.Wether you like it or not, Jim, you have achieved a level of "fame" or certainly notoriety in the Manson blog world. Deal with it.<<<<

There's a video called "Into the great wide open" by Tom Petty that basically says what you just said.

Forgive me if i take your award and throw it in the pool - I don't want it.

>>> Lately it has been politically correct to make allowances and excuses for you, but clearly you are the most abrasive and deluded azzhole in blog world.<<<

I don't ask anyone to make excuses on my behalf, but thank you for the compliment.

History is what it is.

The FACT is that America never should have gotten involved in the European theater.

There was a German-American bund that was lead by a man named George Lincoln Rockwell who was sympathetic to Hitler and the boys.

There was enormous pressure at home for America to stay out of the war but, just as the Russians were laying down a beating on the Germans at the gates of Moscow, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and Mr Hitler decided to declare war on the United States to back up his so-called Japanese allies.

I'm sorry for your loses, but I too had a grandfather who got his purple heart in the Battle of The Bulge. He had the distinguished duty of being a scout. Those were the guys who went ahead of the army to see where the enemy was. In my grandfathers case, he found the enemy and it almost cost him his life.

The Russians had a moral claim on Germany and had called for a 2nd front in 1943 but the western allies weren't up to the job. By 1944, Russia's factories in the ural mountains were producing more war materials in a month than hitlers reich could produce in a year. The war was over. It was unwinnable for Germany.

There was no need for a 2nd front late in 1944 when the Russians were on the Polish Border.

AMERICA didn't want Russia grabbing europe by the throat and the US Army was there to try and keep the Russians as far to the east as possible. The German Army wasn't much of a concern to uncle sam at that time. They didn't want the Russians camped out on the english channel.

There's an excellent documentary series on youtube called "The Unknown War" which is narrated by Burt Lancaster.

Leary7 should watch this series and you'll see how the Russians did all of the "Heavy Lifting" from Stalingrad to Berlin.

I won't even mention the fact that the russians had to dismantle their war plants in the western part of the country and reassemble them in the east beyond the Ural mountains just to be out of range of the German Bombers.

The Russians fought 2 World Wars on their soil. The last time that America had to drive a foreign enemy off of its soil was in 1812 - and oh yeah, that foreign enemy we drove out, after having burned our capital, was our old "friend"- "The Brits".

With the 2 wars we fought with England in 1776 and in 1812, Roosevelt probably should have given England to Hitler because it wasn't worth a single American life to back up our old "Friend" across the pond who was feverishly trying to drag America into the War.

I don't understand where all this anti America sentiment comes from, but you sure hear alot of it nowadays. My perception: some people must actually feel quilty to have been born in a country where you can get away with being lazy.

as Jim said: "history is what it is"

I for one think we Americans can be proud of much of our history including WWII. Most of us know America contributed greatly. our woman going to work in factories & our men going off to fight. Anyone who feels compeled to diminish our contributions is just wrong as far as i'm concerned.

While it is often overlooked in the Western World how much Russia did during WW2, Jim's attempts to downplay the Brit's efforts are borderline ofensive.Come to England Jim and checkout any of our graveyards. Then tell us we didn't suffer. Many fine man gave his life to protect our freedom. Don't piss on their memory from behind a keyboard.

1) Britain WAS (in-fact) trying feverishly to drag us (the US) into the war. There’s no doubt about that.Britain was taking a major beating, and they were trying to save their own skin. It’s unlikely Britain would have survived without our assistance.

2) There WAS pressure at home, for America to stay out of the war. After WWI, Americans weren’t anxious to get involved. We held-off, as long as we could.

3) It’s true… the Russians were tenacious fighters… and fought back successfully against amazing odds.

4) The Americans didn’t want the Russians to control all of Europe.

Here’s the rub:

Pearl Harbor had been bombed viciously… and under-handedly. You simply can’t ignore something that dramatic. Japan was already attacking us… and Germany would have followed suit eventually. Hitler was a madman. He wanted the whole world… and Europe at that time, was completely crumbling. The writing was on the wall. The time, was now.

We HAD to enter the war, while we still had allies left... and before Hitler was at our doorstep.And make no mistake... Hitler WAS coming our way eventually.I'm personally convinced... Hitler was going after Japan eventually!His "Ally". LOL Hitler was a madman, and he was just using Japan.The Americans weren’t anxious to fight in WWII (as you said yourself), but we were left with little choice.

Here’s where we differ:

I’m not convinced by an means… that Russia could have handled both Germany and Japan alone. The Russians fought gallantly… but, we kept the Germans distracted in the West… and moreover… we kept the Japanese off their asses.

It was very much a concerted effort. If you want to say, that the Russians shouldered more burden on European soil… I’ll go along with that. But fact is… we were the difference the Russians needed. We took the heat off them, as it were. Also… bear in mind… the Japanese were fanatical fighters. The Japanese surrendered last (after the Germans).

The Japanese only surrendered after the atomic bombs were dropped. They essentially had a “last man standing” policy.

My dad fought against the Japanese in the pacific. He told me many stories. I can tell you with certainty… those people were ravenous.

Get this: The kamikaze pilots would actually attend their own funeral before they took flight.

But this is the kicker: Towards the end of the war… Japan was running low on rubber. The pilots would actually eject the wheels of the plane after take-off… so they could be re-used! The Japanese were fanatical.

Bottom line Jim:

The Russians kicked-ass following major hardships. They deserve major credit. But, the fact is… they wouldn’t have won without us… and we certainly wouldn’t have won, without them. It was a concerted effort. If we didn’t plague the Japanese in the Pacific arena… and allowed Germany to turn their full attention east… things would have turned-out differently. As it was… (even with Russia and US teamed-up)… they gave us a serious run for our money.The outcome of this war, was not a forgone conclusion... not by any stretch.

Lastly… we had no choice but to enter the war, when we did… whether we wanted to, or not… (and, we didn’t want to). You're correct... we left the Brits begging us to participate for a long time.

Jim said:>>>>“Had the Red Army just bunkered down for a while, Hitler would have wiped out the allied invasion of Normandy but the Red Army was like a knife at Hitler's throat in 1944”<<<<

That is a very true statement. But, the same can be said in reverse. We kept Hitler occupied on two fronts… and kept the Japanese off their ass. It was a mutual situation. We needed the Russians, and they needed us. I’ll never see it any other way. Neither Russia, nor the US, could have defeated both the Germans and the Japanese single-handedly.

>>>>Bobby, I'm with you.America...love it or leave it.We live in one of the few countries in this world that you can actually go on TV and call the President names.<<<<

The United States of America has the become the most evil empire that the world has ever known. It wages war against its own citizens by deliberately poisoning our food and water, contamininating our vaccines with cancer causing agents, and by terrorizing other nations around the globe by using proxy cia sponsored entities to sabotage and assassinate political rivals.

We use our military to threaten other nations and we use these new predator drones to murder our opposition in complete disregard for the innocents who unfortunately get in the way.

I'm sorry .... "America Love it or Leave it" doesn't fly anymore.

The government has been working overtime trying to strip us of our liberties and to enslave us under a new global fascist police state where people will be tagged and tracked like farm animals.

This is the America that you love - I Reject it.

In the words of Lyndon LaRouche, the United States of America has become the military arm of the British Empire and its global investment banking oligarchs like the Rothchild family.

The British have been a thorn in America's ass since 1776 and they continue to be so even today.

We never won our independence from these bastards. They control the United States through their global investment banking entities.

The Brits have led America around like a dog on a leash ever since we entered into WW1.

It disgusts me that foreign operatives have hijacked the nation that bore me and have used our military to carry out their own foreign policy where America is looked upon as a global thug and a terror state with a nuclear arsenal.

Just take a look at any English city and see all of the cameras that have been deployed to keep watch on the average citizen and then ask yourself how did all of this crap make its way here to America's cities?

As Lyndon LaRouche would say, we need to kick out the parasites from across the pond and take our own nation back while we still have the will to do it.

I'm sick and tired of watching the Brits get a free ride at America's expense.

Throw them the hell out of America and let them go the middle east with their own army to secure their own oil interests and let them fix the problems that THEY created with the Palestinains.

But his way is one way of looking at it. Jim, you're probably right about a lot of it, but I don't think all of it. But I don't think I can put together a lucid rebuttal just now.

LYNYRD! I've been to the Woodstock site, but it was before they built Bethel Woods. I know people who have been to concerts there lately and they say it's a fab place to see a show. so, if we could agree on a show I would definitely meet you there...and anyone else so inclined. didn't I tell you about the skynyrd show there that was WPDH anniversary show over this past summer? Sure hope we didn't miss our opportunity.

All I know is that whenever I turn on the Hitler Channel they have some guy in a big bouffant hairdo on saying aliens were behind everything in history. Myself? I think it's a big pile of steaming doody!

Stormsurge said " Hitler Channel they have some guy in a big bouffant hairdo "

I know right, that dude's hair bother the shit out out of me.

Jim, I just plain dont agree with you about America is poisoning its own population. I agree that the cia and other organizations have their hands in affairs abroad, but i dont see that as wrong either.

Stormsurge said " Hitler Channel they have some guy in a big bouffant hairdo "

I know right, that dude's hair bother the shit out out of me.

Jim, I just plain dont agree with you about America is poisoning its own population. I agree that the cia and other organizations have their hands in affairs abroad, but i dont see that as wrong either.

Starship, I live south of Rochester & have a humble trailer in a fishcamp on Oneida lake. If I get lucky and score those coordinates you will be the first to know. Again, thanks for the excellent post.

>>>Stormy said: All I know is that whenever I turn on the Hitler Channel they have some guy in a big bouffant hairdo on saying aliens were behind everything in history. Myself? I think it's a big pile of steaming doody!>>>

I know Stormy. They used to have some good shows on there, but it seems now all they talk about is Nostradamus and alien crap.

Starship, I've tried and tried to finish Straw Dogs, but I'm halfway thru and all I've seen so far is a nebish guy with the hottest wife within 5000 square miles, who complains to him that the men in town ogle her, and his only response is "you should wear a bra", all the while drawing endless math formulas on a blackboard.

Then when she tries to get his attention and he rebukes her, she draws mysterious lines on his math formulas.

I'm going to have to force my eyelids open like on Clockwork Orange to finish this.

Katie, my god, there it is....I guess I like it because you've just summed up my life nicely..."all I've seen so far is a nebish guy with the hottest wife within 5000 square miles, who complains to him that the men in town ogle her, and his only response is "you should wear a bra", all the while drawing endless math formulas on a blackboard."

Nimrod said >>Wrong. Linda NEVER volunteerd. She was the only one, other than Sandra Good who was in jail, who knew how to get to Nader's place.Someone wanted him dead because he banged Linda. Linda actually liked the guy and thus spared his life not wanting to see Nader end up like Frykowski.The little side trip to Nader's was a perk for Watson's assistance with Waverly place.>>>>>

Well let's be fair here, where are you getting these ideas? Personal opinion/theory, or...?

If you're Linda Kasabian, you're outside of the Cielo Drive house, allegedly standing guard as Bugliosi says, which is complete bullshit. You watch a floundering Voyteck Frykowski stumble out of the front door, half dead already, and Linda walks up to him and says "I'm so sorry" - A personal admission of guilt for causing his death.

Linda watches both Folger and Frykowski get the stuffing ripped out of them by a psychopathic Tex Watson, as the autopsy reports clearly show, and then 24 hours later you find yourself enroute to another mans home for the purpose of seeing him clipped, but only AFTER the LaBianca's return home from Lake Isabella. First things first.

So you're driving around in a beat up old clunker, under the guise that you're just looking for stray piggies to kill, which you're really not, but it's pretty easy to sell to everyone when you think you're doing something to help get bobby out of prison or to get some black folks in hot water. Typical mind fuck stuff. You tell them you're doing one thing when the reality is that you're doing something else.

As ColScott had stated, Venice is quite a distance away. That's no coincidence. They went there for a PURPOSE and Linda Kasabian was NEVER intended to set foot into the LaBianca house. Her destination on that 2nd night was already known before the keys were put into the ignition.

How do you secure the cooperation of someone for a job that was considered pivitol in its execution, referring to the LaBianca's? Simple, you make sure that you do something for the guy that's doing something for you.

LaBianca required some kind of coordination when that event went down. The LaBianca's were in transit and their arrival time was unknown or approximate at best.

Watson owed Manson for what happened with Lottsapoppa but the trip to Nader's place was done to secure Watson's cooperation.

LaBianca had to happen FIRST.

Once the event was in play, Manson took the others, Kasabian, Atkins and Grogan and left the scene where they would end up at Naders later in the early morning.

The only problem was that Linda Kasabian had too much time to think about things and decided to take the group to the wrong apartment.

There's more than enough information floating around to back up what i'm saying.

You don't have to take my word for anything, but you'll eventually find that this information is factual in its content.

You need to get it out of your head that Tex Watson was anything but a follower of Charles Manson because that's NOT the case.

Tex Watson was very much his own man as clearly indicated by the little drug enterprise that he was running with both Susan and Linda.

I KNOW what i'm talking about. You, on the other hand, like the vast majority of the HTLB flunkies who follow this case and who act like they might have an IQ greater than 20, take the Helter Skelter book as if it was the Gospel.

Jimmy you make me laugh! I saw this video years ago. I guess Michael just recently uploaded it.

So Susan said Tex was in charge.

BFD! Hoo Hoo!! That's rich!!!

So you're basing your whole "Linda/Nader" thing on Susan's testimony?

You and I both know that that Susan's testimony went in and out like yesterday's garbage.

One day she killed Sharon...the next she didn't...one day she stabbed Voytek...the next she didn't....

Come on now...give us some MEAT to chew on!!!

>>>Jimmy said: You need to get it out of your head that Tex Watson was anything but a follower of Charles Manson because that's NOT the case.>>>

Sorry Jimmy but he WAS. And nothing you have presented has changed that.

>>>Tex Watson was very much his own man as clearly indicated by the little drug enterprise that he was running with both Susan and Linda.>>>

Whatever drugs he was selling had NOTHING to do with Susan or Linda. He snorted coke out of babyfood jars with Susan. So what? Had nothing to do with Linda.

You haven't proven shit.

>>>I KNOW what i'm talking about. You, on the other hand, like the vast majority of the HTLB flunkies who follow this case and who act like they might have an IQ greater than 20, take the Helter Skelter book as if it was the Gospel.>>>

Jimmy if you had read all of my comments you would know that I get most of them from trial testimony and police reports. So this comment is null & void.

>>>Helter Skelter is a "LIE".

Nader is the "Key".

I'm NOT saying another word on this subject.

You have my answer.>>>

No this isn't an answer. Why is Nader the Key? Why do you keep saying LaBianca first. As if that matters.

What does Nader have to do with the Hinman murder, the Tate murders, the LaBianca murders, the Shorty murder, and any other God knows who murders????

This doesn't make any sense Jimmy. And for you to retreat in the middle of discussion is not very IQ manly of you.

FRIENDS

"Charlie Manson is a five foot seven schizophrenic, who if it weren't for the murder of Sharon Tate, would never be known or discussed. And I'm not saying he isn't funny and entertaining. I'm saying he's a dime a dozen criminal-class punk, who had the good fortune of running into some middle class pseudo-revolutionary white girls." -- Tom G

"The simple and undeniable truth, is that Charlie and the gang were/are the biggest idiots, morons and imbeciles on the planet." -- Leary7

"Them fucking fruitcakes could not pour piss out of a boot, with the bottom written on it."--Harold True