Post by Galamoth on Apr 11, 2016 10:46:14 GMT -6

Since the release of Symphony of the Night, many subsequent games in the "Igavania" (Metroidvania) genre of Castlevania games have featured a certain aspect of RPG-gameplay: "Elements" or "Affinities" (in some cases called "Attributes", like in Order of Ecclesia).

Specifically, I'm referring to the various types of damage that can be utilized by both player-characters and enemies: Some are "Physical" (mostly related to damage from weapons that characters can wield), many others are usually "Elemental" (related to traditional RPG Magic-elements and sometimes to the Four/Five Classical Elements from different cultures), while others are the "Status Ailments" (debuffs/detriments with different effects depending on the individual game).^Many of these Attributes act not only as special modifiers to attacks, but are also part of a character's/enemies' "resistances" and "weaknesses" (including if one can "absorb" the specific type of damage, healing them in the process).

I'll start with listing all of the different Attributes from Castlevania's "Igavania" games below, and specifically which game they are introduced in as separate damage types._____List of Attributes/Affinities throughout the series.

Physical Attributes

HIT - Symphony of the Night (Punching/kicking, hammer weapons, and blunt weapons in general; also called "Bash", "Blunt", and "Strike" in later games)

SLASH - Symphony of the Night (Most, if not all, weapons with sharp edges; swords and most other bladed weapons; called "CUT" in SotN)

PIERCE - Dawn of Sorrow (Exclusive to DoS; Any bladed weapon with emphasis on sharp points/tips and thrusting motions, such as rapiers and spears, etc.)

WHIP - Portrait of Ruin (Before PoR, Whips often dealt "neutral" or "Blunt" damage. Used for flogging or beating, the lashing effect is akin to a flail.)

Elemental Attributes

FIRE - Symphony of the Night (Usually, this element is relatively effective against undead, but most effective against underwater/ice-themed as well as plant-like enemies.)

ICE - Symphony of the Night (Sometimes used to freeze enemies solid in certain later games; usually effective against both plant-like enemies & those that generate flame.)

LIGHTNING - Symphony of the Night (Especially effective against "Armor" enemies in many games, and usually hits twice...oddly not as effective against plant-like enemies.)

WATER - Symphony of the Night (Called "H2O" in SotN, and separate from "ICE"...but not too often utilized. In later games, most "water"-based attacks are classified as Ice-Element.)

PLANT - Circle of the Moon (Exclusive to CotM, so far...In other games, plant-themed weapons/abilities usually dealt "Hit" damage, save for the "Rose Stem Whip" in PoR.)

EARTH - Circle of the Moon (Also found in Curse of Darkness. In other games, any rock or earth-themed ability usually dealt "Hit" damage.)

WIND - Circle of the Moon (Also in both Harmony of Dissonance and Curse of Darkness. In other games, high-speed wind attacks usually dealt "Slash" damage instead.)

DARK - Symphony of the Night (In almost every game, but relatively rare to obtain an ability/weapon which utilizes it. Usually effective against certain "angelic" enemies and Heroes, depending on the game.)

Status Ailments

POISON - Symphony of the Night (Depending on the game; you either gradually lose HP, or your stats are temporarily reduced...or both.)

STONE - Symphony of the Night (Called "Petrify" in many later games, consistently retaining the same effect.)

CURSE - Symphony of the Night (Depending on the game; you either gradually lose MP, can't attack, movement is slowed [for enemies]...or a combination of two of these.)

PARALYSIS - Lament of Innocence (Also in Curse of Darkness. Similar to "Petrify", but you can't escape for a short time.)

SLOW - Circle of the Moon (Forced to walk at half the normal speed, can't dash or double-jump, and can only jump half as high.)_____

I created this thread for discussion on the wide variety of damage types that we could see in Bloodstained.

Should all of these be included in Bloodstained to some extent? (Perhaps some could be combined or omitted?) Could there be many different weapons, spells/abilities, and enemies that are each affiliated with these various attributes?

Post by JoJo on Apr 11, 2016 11:19:38 GMT -6

For me, I think it's better if we can "equip" the elemental attributes, this applies to the status ailments as wellLike picking different crystals for the weapon to use the elements or status, and the higher the quality of the crystal, the stronger the skill will be (only the elementals and the status effect)The concept of this is like FF7 with the materia

Post by castledan on Apr 11, 2016 11:24:09 GMT -6

I loved the curse status in SOTN. The funny grunt sound and the sword coming half way but stopping was a neat touch. I'm a very visual person, the more unique and cool little animations and sounds I get the happier I am with the game.

FREEZE : 25/50/75% of chance to freeze lower monsters (aka weak monsters). If they are froze, 25/50/75% of chance to break them into ice shards (aka instant death but no reward / item drop ?).

To say simply, I think every good / powerful effects should have a counter-part so the game doesn't get too easy with time. Players would have to take choices : Brutal tactic (heavy figthing, doing / taking many damage), Smart tactic (with debuffs, doing / taking less damage). Fast XP / less farm or More farm / less XP ?

I'm also thinking about Pokémon elements' chart. Fire > Ice > Fire > Plants. Water > Fire > Zombies, etc. As long as it's logic. I mean, how can leaf and water could break stones ?

Post by castledan on Apr 11, 2016 11:43:00 GMT -6

My only concern with something like that is do you lose the originality of a sword made to be fire if you can just apply a fire element to any sword?

I mean finding special swords with special looks was part of the fun but taking away the special weapons like that and just making it, any of these weapons can do that seems less enjoyable to me. Apparently we're capable of doing that in this game I just hope they design special unique swords and weapons within the game itself in the form of item drops or finding them. A good amount of them, I don't want it just to be due to creation.

Post by Kaius on Apr 11, 2016 11:50:41 GMT -6

My only concern with something like that is do you lose the originality of a sword made to be fire if you can just apply a fire element to any sword?

I mean finding special swords with special looks was part of the fun but taking away the special weapons like that and just making it, any of these weapons can do that seems less enjoyable to me. Apparently we're capable of doing that in this game I just hope they design special unique swords and weapons within the game itself in the form of item drops or finding them. A good amount of them, I don't want it just to be due to creation.

I got to agree with that.Then, what about having an alchemy / enchant feature that allow us to uncraft a weapon (unless this weapon is unique and you wouldn't have to do so, or have to use a special item / spell) to get its skin that you could put on every weapon you want ? Then putting an element / attribute on this weapon ? It would be cool to have more infos about IGA's plans on different crafting types but my opinion is that we can find a good balance for quite everything while avoiding to make the game too easy / boring (endless farm, no challenges...) / extremly hard / frustrating.

FREEZE : 25/50/75% of chance to freeze lower monsters (aka weak monsters). If they are froze, 25/50/75% of chance to break them into ice shards (aka instant death but no reward / item drop ?).

To say simply, I think every good / powerful effects should have a counter-part so the game doesn't get too easy with time. Players would have to take choices : Brutal tactic (heavy figthing, doing / taking many damage), Smart tactic (with debuffs, doing / taking less damage). Fast XP / less farm or More farm / less XP ?

I'm also thinking about Pokémon elements' chart. Fire > Ice > Fire > Plants. Water > Fire > Zombies, etc. As long as it's logic. I mean, how can leaf and water could break stones ?

Yeah, the variety of Attributes is likely something that IGA has already taken into consideration.

I like your ideas for the "Blind" and "Trouble" status ailments! ("Freeze" is probably most likely to be connected to certain Ice weapons/abilities)

Post by JoJo on Apr 11, 2016 12:05:59 GMT -6

My only concern with something like that is do you lose the originality of a sword made to be fire if you can just apply a fire element to any sword?

I mean finding special swords with special looks was part of the fun but taking away the special weapons like that and just making it, any of these weapons can do that seems less enjoyable to me. Apparently we're capable of doing that in this game I just hope they design special unique swords and weapons within the game itself in the form of item drops or finding them. A good amount of them, I don't want it just to be due to creation.

When you said it like that, I have been thinking of "element compatibility"Like what you said, the weapon made to be fire, that fire will never diminishes, while other weapons that use crystals for the elemental attributes, the crystal will deteriorate in time.With that, we can use the concept of element compatibility here, in which either taking the same element crystal or taking a different crystal to boost the special weapon itself, an example, the fire element have good compatibility with the wind, by combining them, you got like an extra boost for the special weapons, and this combinations will reflects on the particle effects in the game.I hope this is good enough

Post by purifyweirdsoul on Apr 11, 2016 12:19:09 GMT -6

What I can see happening with the weapon system is this, basically:

The unique look/animation weapons that we're used to from games like SotN, if not found outright as "pre-made" weapons, will be in the game at the very least by way of us making them. Say, you have a standard rapier, it may or may not have a multi-hit special attack. After a while, you gather up some drops like blessed silver, wolfsbane, a hunter's journal, etc. The journal itself may contain recipes, one of which being to use your silver/wolfsbane to upgrade your rapier to the Werebane. Different weapon appearance and attack/special attack animation wise.

So, I don't think we're looking at simple +atribute, +attack enhancements...doing just Lightning Rapier +3. Instead, there may be branching unique paths per weapon class depending on the items and combinations you have.

The same could be done to synthesize "legendary" katana that probably shouldn't be there. A Masanune, Murasame, Muramasa? Find a good base regular katana in the castle, gather up some legendary smithing items and documents of the know-how, and near end-game you should be able to have your own mythical sword. This could also be an alternative path to getting a late (or very hard to acquire) weapon earlier, and at the time you obtain the premade version, you can break it down for components that could perhaps improve the one you have or use for something completely different. It's overall a perfect opportunity to travel down a path of crafting a legendary relic in a time/place where it being there is best explained by some incredible alchemic work.

The "premade" weapons that are dropped or found could be possible with creation or completely unique, but I don't think there being item creation necessarily limits their number. So long as we're talking about named weapons with special attacks/animations, I think we're all good.

edit: Since this post is mostly about item crafting, I moved it to a more appropriate thread. We can discuss more crafting-centric thoughts there.

Post by castledan on Apr 11, 2016 12:41:53 GMT -6

The unique look/animation weapons that we're used to from games like SotN, if not found outright as "pre-made" weapons, will be in the game at the very least by way of us making them. Say, you have a standard rapier, it may or may not have a multi-hit special attack. After a while, you gather up some drops like blessed silver, wolfsbane, a hunter's journal, etc. The journal itself may contain recipes, one of which being to use your silver/wolfsbane to upgrade your rapier to the Werebane. Different weapon appearance and attack/special attack animation wise.

So, I don't think we're looking at simple +atribute, +attack enhancements...doing just Lightning Rapier +3. Instead, there may be branching unique paths per weapon class depending on the items and combinations you have.

The same could be done to synthesize "legendary" katana that probably shouldn't be there. A Masanune, Murasame, Muramasa? Find a good base regular katana in the castle, gather up some legendary smithing items and documents of the know-how, and near end-game you should be able to have your own mythical sword. This could also be an alternative path to getting a late (or very hard to acquire) weapon earlier, and at the time you obtain the premade version, you can break it down for components that could perhaps improve the one you have or use for something completely different. It's overall a perfect opportunity to travel down a path of crafting a legendary relic in a time/place where it being there is best explained by some incredible alchemic work.

The "premade" weapons that are dropped or found could be possible with creation or completely unique, but I don't think there being item creation necessarily limits their number. So long as we're talking about named weapons with special attacks/animations, I think we're all good.

I mean, I get that they could be made instead but I like the idea of hitting a secret wall and finding a unique weapon inside. I'd be kinda bummed if they killed off that aspect of the game. I would also be bummed if enemy specific drops are completely gone. I mean fighting a medusa to get a medusa type item is really cool and gives the enemies a certain level of interest to them, instead of them dropping a material or something.

Post by purifyweirdsoul on Apr 11, 2016 12:47:59 GMT -6

And I think there will be a mix. They know there's a lot of guys out there that want things to work as closely as possible to SotN. I moved that post to a more appropriate thread if people want to comment on crafting specific ideas.

Enemy-specific drops are definitely not gone. He has said that enemies will drop specific components, at least, so that Medusa head might drop a snake hair to make a Medusa shield with, or maybe you could use it to make a Medusa whip that petrifies small enemies instead. The uniqueness and enemy association of the weapons is still there.

Could they still drop whole equipment pieces? I don't see why not. And yay, I brought this back around to a status effect. I guess petirfication on enemies could work if it's limited to humanoid-sized things. Could be a weird thing to balance/animate.

Post by lai on Apr 11, 2016 12:58:12 GMT -6

I kinda want the elements in this game to be treated the same way as OOE, hitting with the right element will let you deal 50% more damage and hitting with the wrong one deals half damage. When combined with OOE's corridor tall enemies it forced you to play smart as elements actually meant something. Unfortunately this only works when you have a system that allows for easy weapon/element switching like the glyph system.

Bloodstained seems to be going in the same direction as every other igavania. Elements are being tied to specific weapons with the main menu being the only way to switch between more than two. So OOE's system won't be a great fit unless there's some form of easy weapon switch like OOE's.

FREEZE : 25/50/75% of chance to freeze lower monsters (aka weak monsters). If they are froze, 25/50/75% of chance to break them into ice shards (aka instant death but no reward / item drop ?).

To say simply, I think every good / powerful effects should have a counter-part so the game doesn't get too easy with time. Players would have to take choices : Brutal tactic (heavy figthing, doing / taking many damage), Smart tactic (with debuffs, doing / taking less damage). Fast XP / less farm or More farm / less XP ?

I'm also thinking about Pokémon elements' chart. Fire > Ice > Fire > Plants. Water > Fire > Zombies, etc. As long as it's logic. I mean, how can leaf and water could break stones ?

I have alternatives.

BLIND : Reduces Sight radius. Like Near-sighted in Rogue Dungeon but black rather then blurry.

FREEZE : 25/50/75% of chance to freeze lower monsters (aka weak monsters). If they are froze, 25/50/75% of chance to break them into ice shards (aka instant death but no reward / item drop ?).

To say simply, I think every good / powerful effects should have a counter-part so the game doesn't get too easy with time. Players would have to take choices : Brutal tactic (heavy figthing, doing / taking many damage), Smart tactic (with debuffs, doing / taking less damage). Fast XP / less farm or More farm / less XP ?

I'm also thinking about Pokémon elements' chart. Fire > Ice > Fire > Plants. Water > Fire > Zombies, etc. As long as it's logic. I mean, how can leaf and water could break stones ?

I have alternatives.

BLIND : Reduces Sight radius. Like Near-sighted in Rogue Dungeon but black rather then blurry.

This version of confusion exists in Final Fantasy Explorers on 3DS. When you are confused, moves are reversed : Up becomes down, down = up, left = right and right = left.I do like Insanity too !

We can also imagine heavy ground monsters that make... for instance, GRAVITY : Deny Miriam from jumping for X (5/10/15 ?) seconds, making some combos impossible (particulary air ones) while the monster casting this is rightly strong on the ground, using EARTH element. There is so much possibilities, actually.

This version of confusion exists in Final Fantasy Explorers on 3DS. When you are confused, moves are reversed : Up becomes down, down = up, left = right and right = left.I do like Insanity too !

We can also imagine heavy ground monsters that make... for instance, GRAVITY : Deny Miriam from jumping for X (5/10/15 ?) seconds, making some combos impossible (particulary air ones) while the monster casting this is rightly strong on the ground, using EARTH element. There is so much possibilities, actually.

This version of confusion exists in Final Fantasy Explorers on 3DS. When you are confused, moves are reversed : Up becomes down, down = up, left = right and right = left.I do like Insanity too !

We can also imagine heavy ground monsters that make... for instance, GRAVITY : Deny Miriam from jumping for X (5/10/15 ?) seconds, making some combos impossible (particulary air ones) while the monster casting this is rightly strong on the ground, using EARTH element. There is so much possibilities, actually.

We can actually upgrade the Confusion effect. We could have the directional mapping rotate 90, 180 or 270 degrees. That randomness help with the confusion since, by definition, Miriam would be thinking anything but straight.

Post by castledan on Apr 11, 2016 18:11:06 GMT -6

And I think there will be a mix. They know there's a lot of guys out there that want things to work as closely as possible to SotN. I moved that post to a more appropriate thread if people want to comment on crafting specific ideas.

Enemy-specific drops are definitely not gone. He has said that enemies will drop specific components, at least, so that Medusa head might drop a snake hair to make a Medusa shield with, or maybe you could use it to make a Medusa whip that petrifies small enemies instead. The uniqueness and enemy association of the weapons is still there.

Could they still drop whole equipment pieces? I don't see why not. And yay, I brought this back around to a status effect. I guess petirfication on enemies could work if it's limited to humanoid-sized things. Could be a weird thing to balance/animate.

I can't wait to see things like being petrified return and how it looks in a game like this. I think that's what is exciting to me also, graphics have advanced a lot in recent years, I can't wait to see how some of these things we are used to look now.

Post by Galamoth on Apr 12, 2016 6:18:49 GMT -6

And I think there will be a mix. They know there's a lot of guys out there that want things to work as closely as possible to SotN. I moved that post to a more appropriate thread if people want to comment on crafting specific ideas.

Enemy-specific drops are definitely not gone. He has said that enemies will drop specific components, at least, so that Medusa head might drop a snake hair to make a Medusa shield with, or maybe you could use it to make a Medusa whip that petrifies small enemies instead. The uniqueness and enemy association of the weapons is still there.

Could they still drop whole equipment pieces? I don't see why not. And yay, I brought this back around to a status effect. I guess petirfication on enemies could work if it's limited to humanoid-sized things. Could be a weird thing to balance/animate.

I can't wait to see things like being petrified return and how it looks in a game like this. I think that's what is exciting to me also, graphics have advanced a lot in recent years, I can't wait to see how some of these things we are used to look now.

Same!

I'm also wondering how being "Cursed" could work in Bloodstained, assuming that it returns as a status ailment. Will Miriam struggle at swinging a weapon while being affected? Will she rapidly lose MP? (Will the wine-glass that she'd normally throw just shatter in her hand, perhaps?)

Post by BalancedHydra on Apr 12, 2016 7:22:36 GMT -6

I can't wait to see things like being petrified return and how it looks in a game like this. I think that's what is exciting to me also, graphics have advanced a lot in recent years, I can't wait to see how some of these things we are used to look now.

Same!

I'm also wondering how being "Cursed" could work in Bloodstained, assuming that it returns as a status ailment. Will Miriam struggle at swinging a weapon while being affected? Will she rapidly lose MP? (Will the wine-glass that she'd normally throw just shatter in her hand, perhaps?)

Post by Galamoth on Apr 12, 2016 7:47:24 GMT -6

I'm also wondering how being "Cursed" could work in Bloodstained, assuming that it returns as a status ailment. Will Miriam struggle at swinging a weapon while being affected? Will she rapidly lose MP? (Will the wine-glass that she'd normally throw just shatter in her hand, perhaps?)

What if it speeds up the Alchemy Curse she already has?

If that will be the case, then I'd wonder in what way we'll be able to reverse the progress of the Magi-Crystal alchemical curse back to the "normal" state.

Post by Astaroth on Apr 14, 2016 1:25:59 GMT -6

well first the elephant that is status effects in rpgs needs to be addressed for enemies, often theyre either iwin buttons or useless, have abysmal accuracy, or anything that isnt cannon fodder is immune to them. now igas games are much better off than atb or turn based rpgs already because theres no automiss% in arpg platformers, so it comes down to making immunities sensible and balancing the effects so they arent so overpowered that bosses and difficult enemies have to automatically be immune, or so weak that people just say fuck it and beat it to death. not saying it cant be done right, just that this is one of the things that need to be thought of when making any status effect. for instance, poison can be done a couple ways, stat debuff or DOT, but lets go with DOT and make curse our debuff and assume status override instead of stack and existing status tics before override

name

dmg

spd

effect

dpa

dps

dpm 60a

dpm 30a

dpm 20a

dpm 15a

dpm 12a

dpm 10a

short sword

10

1s

none

10

10

600

300

200

150

120

100

poison short sword1

8

1s

poison 1/1s/6s

14

8+1p

480+59p

240+59p

160+59p

120+59p

96+59p

80+59p

poison short sword2

6

1s

poison 1/1s/6s

12

6+1p

360+59p

180+59p

120+59p

90+59p

72+59p

60+59p

this is a quick and dirty setup but illustrates the damage ratio between the 3 weapons, while sword1 overtakes early on its real strength comes from jabbing an enemy every few seconds and retreating, playing well to the hit and run playstyle used on difficult or fast enemies as opposed to the stand and wail used on slow or weak enemies, but the damage drop there isnt so huge that it struggles to keep up like sword2 does, which only overtakes at 15a/m and has such a large gap on the stand and wail front that it only becomes really useful in a pure hit and run fight, curious what yall think >P

anyway, on with the list that only slightly shamelessly copies nearly every other list here >P, assume all have a neutral option and resist takes x seconds off effect durationblunt- useful against hardened foes, weak/strongslash- useful against fleshy foes, weak/strongpierce- useful against armored foes, weak/strong

a lot of the other effects listed like blind or confusion are cool, especially if used in a more limited fashion as specific enemy attacks (like imps taking control of you) as opposed to full on statuses, since those could play in tandem with the level design to keep you on your toes and make those enemies much more dangerous since youre not as likely to have an anti-imp accessory as you would an anti-confusion one

Post by Galamoth on Apr 22, 2016 16:52:09 GMT -6

Wait. What if Gravity could be an element like fire, holy, whatever. I really like the idea of flinging gravity bombs on enemies.

Or better yet, an utility move. Can you imagine all the different exploration capabilities if we have even limited control over gravity.

That sounds plausible, even if it is just a Status-Ailment (it would then still count as an "Attribute").

Yeah, there definitely is potential for ways to access parts of the Castle with a gravity-based ability, like the "Gravity Boots" in SotN. (Which reminds me, there is a "Traversal Mechanics" thread on this site, if I recall correctly)

Post by Astaroth on May 3, 2016 15:13:19 GMT -6

True, but plant comes with a slightly more elemental connotation and suggests its weak to fire, whereas root could have different looks based on enemy attacks like stone, vines, ice, chains, a black hole for gravity, etc, it simply connotates you are rooted and cant move (can still attack though)

Post by Galamoth on May 4, 2016 5:35:32 GMT -6

True, but plant comes with a slightly more elemental connotation and suggests its weak to fire, whereas root could have different looks based on enemy attacks like stone, vines, ice, chains, a black hole for gravity, etc, it simply connotates you are rooted and cant move

Post by Astaroth on Jun 15, 2016 18:16:11 GMT -6

well we have a ton of new info from the demo, looks like stats AS OF THE DEMO (SUBJECT TO CHANGE, ALTERATION, REBALANCE, GAME NOT FINISHED YET, YADDAYADDAYADDA STANDARD DISCLAIMER) are a pretty solid setupspoilered in case someones deliberately avoiding till demo

there is a condition box so itll probably tell you if youre poisoned etc in menustats look to be atk/def, str/con, int/mnd, and luck, standard stuffresistances/attack types are weapons slash pierce bash, elements fire ice elec dark light, status are poison unknown(crystal?paralysis?) unknown(octopus?stone?) unknown(leg?root?) unknown(clock?slow?)magic types have been expanded from previous games, theres trigger effective directional enchant and famili(a)r, and it looks like some kind of mastery or duplicate leveling system is in place (quality)

Post by Galamoth on Oct 9, 2016 12:09:21 GMT -6

It's been a while since I looked back in the Demo. So I'll try my best to guess which "Attributes" have already made it into the game based on the Demo's Pause Menu (though I realize that the Demo is far from the final version of the game).

crocodile: Thanks for the well wishes everyone. Been busy with life (+ no updates) means I haven't been checking around here super often but do know I still love all you guys Aug 16, 2017 18:11:01 GMT -6