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Theft

How much are we going to welcome it, here? IRE games run across the entire spectrum. In Achaea, when you're barely starting to get settled in the game people will steal the worthless newbie clothes off your back just for the lulz. In Lusternia on the other hand, the entire playerbase will grief a thief to dust once discovered. Both can be viewed as pretty extreme, and both obviously have their draws. Both are allowed, or not, entirely by player culture, regardless of what the mechanics of the game do or do not allow.

Space piracy is obviously going to be appealing to some, so how are we going to deal with it? Is everything in your ship fair game? Will any safeguards be in place so you as a player don't lose everythingon the whim of some random internet stranger? "Lrn2Code" works for some people as a solution, but it drives others away. MUDs are hard enough to get into before requiring that you have to learn how to script, too, just to be able to get anywhere.

Surely there's a happy middle ground somewhere, so I'm curious if we can speculate what that might look like.

Comments

There is indeed a fine line between 'theft as profit' and 'theft as griefing' especially in the early days when Marks will be scarce. (The currency.) I suppose it'd be similar to EVE Online - perhaps people would be more willing to hand over their stuff when you ask if you're renowned for only taking that and nothing else - to be refused is to be blasted into oblivion. 'Haha, I have bested you, now give me 500 Marks or I'll blow you up and all your stuff up and inconvenience you greatly' is probably how I'd do it.

Because the goal isn't really 'get all their stuff,' it's 'revel in the feeling of making people submit to you', so the amount just has to be enough to be a minor inconvenience that people would dislike paying, just to feed the ego rush of *actually being able to hold people up and have them pay.*

It also depends a lot obviously on whether there are mechanical abilities particularly for thievery or compelling a player to do things against their personal inclination. It should be noted that hacking can be considered a form of thievery depending upon the object but I'm not sure we know enough about it to know how much the theft will hurt the victim in that case.

As T'rath has pierced the veil, so will I, and so will my life become complete in a good death.JinVOTE FOR STARMOURN

Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

And sometimes pirates are just idiots. Had a guy in Elite demand I drop 30 units of cargo when my ship only held 12. He kept yelling at me to drop the rest or I'd get blown up. Eventually I rammed my ship into him just to shut him up. I blew up, but at least I didn't have to deal with him anymore.The point? Well, when you're dealing with people, all the planning goes out the window. I wish the devs the best on balancing this.

As long as it doesn't amount to "let your computer protect you from this" I'll be cool with it. If I can do something about it, rather than let my character/ship be paralyzed as whatever abilities leech whatever I've worked for happen, I'll be cool.

Sure, having another player submit makes you feel powerful, but having one's personal gains taken away in an instant, because I couldn't program the right triggers makes my time in the game feel less than worthless.

Well, I think there's a fine line that needs to be worked around. On the one hand, having all your stuff taken and all of your progress destroyed can and will drive people from the game. "Lrn2code" and "lol git gud" aren't answers because the last thing we want to do is let irresponsible people drive away people who would have otherwise stayed just because those people didn't code right or aren't as experienced.

That said, Shatterhome is supposedly a haven for criminals and I can't see there being no theft or it being looked down on too hard by people in it, at least in some cases, and some of the races are specifically outed as generally being dirty enough to steal and engage in piracy. Plus mercenary work and the like. So it can't be gone entirely and keep that same sense of criminality. So there's got to be some kind of balance between allowing theft/criminal activity and protecting people from losing so much that they just don't feel like it's worth trying to progress or worth staying anymore.

What I'd like to see is a camera system that just gives you a log of all actions in your ship. So you can take stuff from other people's ship if they trust you, but it'll ruin your reputation if they send the video out to the commsphere.

Just put everything important in a locked glass case, have a private living quarters for yourself, or leave out items you wanted to throw away as bait.

Credit buying players don't want their credit stuff stolen. I'm referring to credit market gold and other goodies, not artifacts. "Peorgh" and the hashan snakes back in the day was what made me leave achaea permanently. The theft was not just stealing newbie clothes either. It was rampant and back before there was even runes or even the move to Mhaldor or however you spell it.

Aeto and Lusty have it right, minor theft options with major repercussions and a HUGE frown on it.

If theft ends up being a major thing, expect people to leave in droves. Look at EVE online...

I can't find the article, but Valve is now being sued over loses from actual players due to IG THEFT. I know they got the class action last year over gambling thrown out, but I think this suit is still on going and has to do with their EULA also.

EVE online is finally getting a growing player base again since the introduction of the not steal-able PLEX currency at the beginning of this year. It's been almost 5 years since EVE saw any major growth and they had to kick thousands of thieves/grievers and overhaul the economy to do it.

Imagine if you will you buy 100 credits with real life money, spend 50 on that arti and put the other 50 on the credit market for ig cash. Then someone comes along and takes that 50 credits worth ig money off your character... they basically just stolen 50 credits worth IRL cash from you...

I think it's universally expected that IRE won't allow real world purchases to be stolen. It's why Artifacts in every IRE revert back to the owner after X time, and why Credits don't show up as IG items beyond trades for gold.

It's one thing to lose stuff you earn in game, because that's in character. It's another to lose things you spend your actual money on.

@satomi Agreed, that said pickpocketing a "mark-stick" (if they exist) or ID thefting a meals worth of "marks" should be doable with minimal repercussions. I just don't want my ship or las-rifle stolen every time I turn around and put for sale in the pirate shop, because someone/group is too lazy to PVE/grind for cash.

@TNA The only time I've noted people being able to steal weaponry/gear in any IRE game (sans midkemia, dunno too much about it) is through the use of the FORCE command. Basically, think mind control. If that doesn't exist, then the most expected is cash theft.

@satomi Used to be that hypnosis was used to make you give your clothes, weapons, armor, gold, pretty much anything on you via a "force" command. Ach has snakelords, aeto has syssin, imp has saboteurs, etc. They can ALL be used to steal or could be.

The tactic was to target lowbies as to not violate the newbie rule, rob them blind, and sell the items in a shop to the masses. Often times you'd have to go back and buy your rarer/expensive equipment back from them as it was cheaper than buying a new one. Field plate for infernals and paladins for example.

If you are the Satomi of aeto. Hiya! This is not an issue Aeto ever really experienced. Only capable thieves iwere/are syssin so everyone knew who to hammer. That and spinesreach has never really condoned theft. Only a couple big hiests in aeto history. All org and bank based.

Also, speaking of theives we could have @Antidas come in here and tell us some of their stories of robbing lowbies.

The passive aggression is strong in you.

No idea who you are, but sounds like maybe you were one of the many who couldn't be bothered to make 2 triggers that completely shut down any possibility of theft, and then proceeded to sit afk in a public area without journaling?

Either that or I've never robbed you, but you've just assumed that because I play a thief in a game, I get off on preying on 18 year old novices who don't know any better and taking their 500 gold, before I fly off cackling on my broomstick. Could go either way I suppose

@Antidas Lol, I can call up two people right now who quit after you robbed them. One was a lowbie from aeto giving achaea a shot back in like 2013. The other was a more established player just with a new alt this summer. Both will never Achaea again.

Heh, yeah, I remember this incident. Worth noting that Ellowyne didn't dormant (she is ranked and I had someone in her faction tell me she still logs on) and is 100% not a noob (the character was created ~6 years ago, give or take a bit). This really isn't the place to discuss how my character behaves on a totally different game, so I'll just leave you with this: If I ever rob someone of more than they can afford to replace, and they contact me and behave themselves reasonably (swearing or insulting me is a great way to get nowhere) when talking to me, I'm usually willing to work with them both IC and OOC to make sure they're not subject to too much of a loss. If you really want to push the subject I'd be glad to answer any accusations or questions you have for me in a more appropriate location, such as messages. Or better yet, you could just approach me in-game rather than hiding behind an anonymous forum name.

Not referring to Ello specifically, that's just a recent public example. Here is another from the wayback... http://oldsite.ironrealms.com/rpg-games-it-takes-a-thief You've never robbed me, only people I know. I quit playing achaea because of theives probably before you even started Antidas there, 2008-9ish. I remember guilds and the switch to houses. Haven't played since because of lowbie trolling theives.

Also not hiding behind an anonymous forum name. I am right here, just not in achaea because of theives. I don't even remember my characters names even anymore. Valios a satyr paladin from shallam, was one.

So back to my original purpose in tagging you to this thread. Got ANY decent theft stories to share?

I got plenty of fun stories I could share. If you actually want stories, you should probably not preface your request with passive aggressive accusations. As for not hiding, thats fair enough. I assumed you were a current/semi-current player, considering you seemed to know all about me.

One of my favorite stories is of robbing Trey's shop in Mhaldor. For those of you who don't play Achaea, Trey is a merchant/crafter archetype, pretty filthy rich, and stocks a shop full of fairly rare and valuable items. Anyways, I managed to break into his shop one day and pilfer it fully. Turns out his internet had dropped and he had disconnected, or something along those lines. In any case, he contacted me OOCly about it, explained the situation, and we worked out a deal we played out ICly, wherein he paid me some sum of gold (I don't remember how much) and my choice of one item from his stock that I had taken, and I gave the rest back. I ended up picking a wooden python statue that I eats decapitated heads and is linked to Keresis, the Goddess of Vengeance, whose Order Antidas used to be a member of. It remains one of my favorite items to this day, and Trey got the vast majority of his stock back.

When I say FORCE command, I mean anything ranging from Priest, Syssin, Serpent, monk, etc etc. I used to play a Priest in Imperian and it was a common tactic to make my enemy THROW WEAPON TO <charname> to disarm them mid combat (since grip didn't prevent throw), and proceed to wail on them with my mace-o-doom.

Would also make them remove their armor. Was funny.

I was never big on theft but I always used whatever I could swing during PK into my favor. Probably helped that I played a Nun on my Priest, for lack of a better term.

Regardless, I think the point still stands. If none of the classes have a method of forcibly stripping a character from their gear (short of nicking a bit of cash), we won't have to worry so much about theft. Like Antidas said, it's basically 2 triggers give or take.

When I prodded at Achaea again, I got robbed by Jinsun. I bought two items, altered some of my aliases for handling gold (namely changing it to 'sovereigns') and I've yet to be tapped again, not for lack of trying on the thiever's part... I also often idle semi-afk in bashing areas between monsters.

Basically, once you prove yourself to be more hassle than your potential coin is worth, you don't get hit unless they are seriously lacking targets and you're just.. there. Besides.. if there's no theft in Scatterhome, even on an NPC to NPC level, I'll start a thieves guild out of spite!

@Antidas Point blank. Don't take things I say as personal insults. I'm not passive aggressively doing shit. Second time now. My "accusations" of you playing a notorious thief are not accusations, it's fact.

I've made a few good friends in the IRE world. Some I've actually visited irl. So I still have an ear to the ground in achaea and aetolia. Hence being able to get the skinny on you.

Got any better stories? I got robbed for a joke once in a non-IRE game. Literally got stuck up as an equavilant to a novice (no theft skills in this game, they had to block me in a room and stick me up so to speak.) When they discovered I had 5 gold and 10 silver (equaling novice) they demanded a joke instead and gave me my money back. Only theft encounter I've ever had in a mud that didn't leave a sour taste in my mouth.

@Satomi You see there in lies a difference to me. In aeto and imp there are force abilities, but almost no theft. I've literally had gold and weapons dropped in battle returned to me in both. By the enemy. Killing a mount in aeto was considered a douche move also, which in achaea is fair game also.

And see for a player like me anti-theft is a chore and a lot more than 2 triggers. One trigger for each item worn, one for each container, and one for each major item. Then generosity, selfishness, vigilance, etc. I may still be referring to pre-change theft here. As I said almost 10 years since I tried achaea, but the fact that rampant theft is still talked about on the forums is enough of a no go for me.

And if you start a thieves guild... I'll start scatterhome police force... ;p

@Antidas Point blank. Don't take things I say as personal insults. I'm not passive aggressively doing shit. Second time now. My "accusations" of you playing a notorious thief are not accusations, it's fact.

Pro tip, if people seem to always think your comments are passive aggressive, maybe its the way you're saying things. I'm 100% a notorious thief and take no offense at being called such. What I -do- take offense at is the insinuation that all I do is rob lowbies, when in fact I make a point to try to avoid robbing people who appear to be brand new or might not know better, and instead focus on those that really -should- know better. Whether they do or not is another story, of course.

But also yeah, thats another pretty good story. I robbed a shop in Cyrene once because Antidas has a long-standing feud with the city. I was at the time Minister of Security, and reasonably high ranking (i forget what my actual rank was then) in Aurora's order, so I wasn't just some random citizen. Because of my position, Cyrene blamed the city for my actions (fair) and in response, banned us from preaching in the city and such. The situation devolved from there, and eventually ended in Cyrene renouncing Devotion and it finally being recalled back to Targossas completely. To be fair, it was a fairly debated decision even in Targossas, but I still believe it was the right thing to do from a role-play perspective to have devotion be tied only to the city that controls it and not allowed elsewhere.

Plus, I get to say I was directly responsible for putting the final nail in the coffin of the Team Blue(tm) alliance that used to be Targossas(Shallam)/Cyrene/Eleusis and splitting Targossas away entirely. So there's that.

@Antidas Point blank. Don't take things I say as personal insults. I'm not passive aggressively doing shit. Second time now. My "accusations" of you playing a notorious thief are not accusations, it's fact.

Pro tip, if people seem to always think your comments are passive aggressive, maybe its the way you're saying things. I'm 100% a notorious thief and take no offense at being called such. What I -do- take offense at is the insinuation that all I do is rob lowbies, when in fact I make a point to try to avoid robbing people who appear to be brand new or might not know better, and instead focus on those that really -should- know better. Whether they do or not is another story, of course.

See not EVERYONE has that reaction. I'd say 1 in 5 generally. Most just talk crap back and the fun cycle continues. I blame the military for this mentality. Get over it, join in, move on or ignore it. When I DON'T talk to you, that's when you'll know I don't like you at all and am being "passive aggressive".

Got any good ones about things going wrong? Horribly, horribly wrong?

Like one time in aeto I was shopping for syssin class. The guild denied me access, but I started asking individuals to do it for 100k on the sly. Not paying attention I didn't realize it was the new GM that offered me a deal. So I go to meet her at the neutral city of delve, intentionally on my part to avoid being ganked into a trap. I hand over the cash and she immediately tries to flay/strip me, so yeah trap. Thing is guards in delve at the time escorted you out of the city if you tried to attack anyone. So I lost 100k, didn't get class, but avoided a trap fairly easily. She was so pissed, she ooc'ed me about it. We had a nice chat. Good times.

Ehh, I'm sure there have been plenty of times where I robbed someone who could kick my ass or otherwise died in the process, but those usually don't stick in my head very much. There was one time I caught Mizik (one of the most prominent/well-known combatants in Achaea) afk in a public location and proceeded to take pretty much every sovereign he had on him. He then proceeded to wreck me three or four times before I got frustrated and started just running from him rather than fighting. Not a bad memory for me at all, but not all that exciting for others haha. So no, gonna have to go with no great stories of colossal failures. Plenty of failures, just none of them that interesting.

@Antidas Point blank. Don't take things I say as personal insults. I'm not passive aggressively doing shit. Second time now. My "accusations" of you playing a notorious thief are not accusations, it's fact.

Pro tip, if people seem to always think your comments are passive aggressive, maybe its the way you're saying things. I'm 100% a notorious thief and take no offense at being called such. What I -do- take offense at is the insinuation that all I do is rob lowbies, when in fact I make a point to try to avoid robbing people who appear to be brand new or might not know better, and instead focus on those that really -should- know better. Whether they do or not is another story, of course.

See not EVERYONE has that reaction. I'd say 1 in 5 generally. Most just talk shit back and the fun cycle continues. I blame the military for this mentality. Get over it, join in, move on or ignore it. When I DON'T talk to you, that's when you'll now I don't like you at all and am being "passive aggressive".

Got any good ones about things going wrong? Horribly, horribly wrong?

Like one time in aeto I was shopping for syssin class. The guild denied me access, but I started asking individuals to do it for 100k on the sly. Not paying attention I didn't realize it was the new GM that offered me a deal. So I go to meet her at the neutral city of delve, intentionally on my part to avoid being ganked into a trap. I hand over the cash and she immediately tries to flay/strip me, so yeah trap. Thing is guards in delve at the time escorted you out of the city if you tried to attack anyone. So I lost 100k, didn't get class, but avoided a trap fairly easily. She was so pissed, she ooc'ed me about it. We had a nice chat. Good times.