A successful transition to a 21st Century Electricity System requires careful consideration of a range of issues that will ultimately redefine the regulatory framework and utility business model while creating new opportunities for third-party providers and customers to contribute to the operation of the electricity system. In this third in a series published by Utility Dive, AEE explores traditional and “pay for performance” approaches to energy efficiency (EE). Energy efficiency (EE), broadly defined, means using less energy to provide the same, or often superior, energy services. EE is most commonly thought of as technologies that reduce energy use relative to traditional technologies, such as LED lighting and high efficiency appliances and heating and cooling equipment. But today, EE also includes the use of sophisticated energy management systems, internet-connected thermostats, and data analytics. Many benefits come from EE technologies and practices, including cost savings for customers,

I remember hearing this same theory since at least 1979 when President Carter wore sweaters on TV and told everyone to turn down there thermostats in winter. Didn't work too well back then, and now I live in a relatively well insulated house with double pane windows with LED bulbs in all my light sockets. Not a whole lot more conserving I can do unless I move another family in here to increase the population density for utility ratio.

II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Hey Sub,Absolutely not true. Carter had the right idea but the public decided it would be more fun to build an unsustainable debt and then crash...whatever...

I expect you have seen my level of data analytics. It is central to planning and implementing a sustainable lifestyle. You may feel good about your LEDs but do you know how much difference it really made? I know when my power is available, where it comes from, and where it goes. As long as I live within my limits, TPTB can ESAD! (Eat Shit And Die)

I am developing the algorithms that will govern your future energy usage. I have to manually control many things right now. But in the future it could all be integrated and operate completely hands off. I wish my dishwasher could tell when the solar is cranking out power and turn itself on.

A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db

baha wrote: I wish my dishwasher could tell when the solar is cranking out power and turn itself on.

Sounds like a simple problem that just needs some wiring or wifi connections. A couple of if-than statements. If washer has been loaded and set to ready, then if solar array output exceeds x amps then run (the washer).

baha wrote:Hey Sub,Absolutely not true. Carter had the right idea but the public decided it would be more fun to build an unsustainable debt and then crash...whatever...I expect you have seen my level of data analytics. It is central to planning and implementing a sustainable lifestyle. You may feel good about your LEDs but do you know how much difference it really made? I know when my power is available, where it comes from, and where it goes. As long as I live within my limits, TPTB can ESAD! (Eat Shit And Die)

I am developing the algorithms that will govern your future energy usage. I have to manually control many things right now. But in the future it could all be integrated and operate completely hands off. I wish my dishwasher could tell when the solar is cranking out power and turn itself on.

So your response to my different xperience is to call me a liar? I suggest you review your debating technique because this appraoch causes me to scroll past the rest of your message without bothering to read it.

II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Subjectivist wrote:I remember hearing this same theory since at least 1979 when President Carter wore sweaters on TV and told everyone to turn down there thermostats in winter. Didn't work too well back then, and now I live in a relatively well insulated house with double pane windows with LED bulbs in all my light sockets.

Or, we could try having an attention span worthy of a human, instead of a gnat.

Conservation and efficiency, when applied industriously over time, have a HUGE cumulative impact. Like modern well insulated houses and LED bulbs today, compared to very poorly insulated houses and incandescent lighting technology of the 50's. Such changes take a lot of perseverance and occur over decades. But without the effort, will, and patience to realize the benefits of such changes (allowing incremental improvements to multiply over time to a huge cumulative result), we might get far less of them.

So should we pretend efficiency gains don't happen, just because they're not gigantic in the short term? Or that conservation of resources doesn't matter, just because it doesn't magically solve all problems in the short term? I don't think so.

Subjectivist wrote:I remember hearing this same theory since at least 1979 when President Carter wore sweaters on TV and told everyone to turn down there thermostats in winter. Didn't work too well back then, and now I live in a relatively well insulated house with double pane windows with LED bulbs in all my light sockets.

Or, we could try having an attention span worthy of a human, instead of a gnat.

Conservation and efficiency, when applied industriously over time, have a HUGE cumulative impact. Like modern well insulated houses and LED bulbs today, compared to very poorly insulated houses and incandescent lighting technology of the 50's. Such changes take a lot of perseverance and occur over decades. But without the effort, will, and patience to realize the benefits of such changes (allowing incremental improvements to multiply over time to a huge cumulative result), we might get far less of them.

So should we pretend efficiency gains don't happen, just because they're not gigantic in the short term? Or that conservation of resources doesn't matter, just because it doesn't magically solve all problems in the short term? I don't think so.

You are making my point for me. Over the last 40 plus years we have been making energy efficiency improvements. It isn't 1977 any more, the low hanging fruit of efficiency improvements have already been done. The issue is, the greater your efficiency the less return on investment you get from improvements. Most furnaces sold today are 85% efficient or better. Upgrading from 55 to 75 is a huge improvement. Upgrading from 75 to 90 is a substantial improvement. Improving from 90 to 95 or 97 is much less of an improvement because the law of diminishing returns always holds true.

Same with lighting, switching out my incandescent bulbs to LED cut my energy use for lighting by about 85 percent. It is hard to get much more efficient than a source that gives me full spectrum light at even higher efficiency would be hard pressed to provide more efficiency at the cost of an LED or lower. Again the law of diminishing returns.

Additional insulation is also a great addition to a home, but the cost of added insulation vs the pay off time in lower winter heating bills also runs into the law of diminishing returns.

Point being, if you are building a brand new home with excellent insulation, high efficiency furnace and all LED lights where do you go for greater efficiency?

II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Subjectivist wrote:Additional insulation is also a great addition to a home, but the cost of added insulation vs the pay off time in lower winter heating bills also runs into the law of diminishing returns.

Point being, if you are building a brand new home with excellent insulation, high efficiency furnace and all LED lights where do you go for greater efficiency?

Once the law of diminishing returns kicks in, the only way to further reduce your energy consumption would be by reducing your standard of living, for example by living in a smaller house or a multi-unit building. I believe that is the direction we are heading, like it or not.

To focus on energy efficiency is to make present ways of life non-negotiable. However, transforming present ways of life is key to mitigating climate change and decreasing our dependence on fossil fuels. Energy efficiency policy Energy efficiency is a cornerstone of policies to reduce carbon emissions and fossil fuel dependence in the industrialised world. For example, the European Union (EU) has set a target of achieving 20% energy savings through improvements in energy efficiency by 2020, and 30% by 2030. Measures to achieve these EU goals include mandatory energy efficiency certificates for buildings, minimum efficiency standards and labelling for a variety of products such as boilers, household appliances, lighting and televisions, and emissions performance standards for cars. [1] The EU has the world’s most progressive energy efficiency policy, but similar measures are now applied in many other industrialised countries, including China. On a

Subjectivist wrote:Additional insulation is also a great addition to a home, but the cost of added insulation vs the pay off time in lower winter heating bills also runs into the law of diminishing returns.

Point being, if you are building a brand new home with excellent insulation, high efficiency furnace and all LED lights where do you go for greater efficiency?

Once the law of diminishing returns kicks in, the only way to further reduce your energy consumption would be by reducing your standard of living, for example by living in a smaller house or a multi-unit building. I believe that is the direction we are heading, like it or not.

Dose moving into a house twice the size you need increase your standard of living? Or your quality of life? Not necessarily they same thing are they? So why would moving back into smaller more efficient housing that meets your needs (and is easier to keep clean) reduce your standard of living. After all an adult human takes up less then five cubic feet of space and can only be in one bathroom at a time. Once you get past the cramped conditions of a New York city shoe box apartment going bigger is just a waste of space and energy and is done more often as a status symbol then for any practical need. As energy becomes more scarce and expensive large rambling Mc-Mansions will become an albatross around the owners neck and many may well be abandoned or torn down.

There is a world difference between your example and mine. Sure your example is valid for people in a certain set of circumstances, but I belive mine is fairly universal including those folks in the shoebox apartments.

II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Subjectivist wrote:There is a world difference between your example and mine. Sure your example is valid for people in a certain set of circumstances, but I belive mine is fairly universal including those folks in the shoebox apartments.

I'm not arguing with you point about diminishing returns. It is valid. I am disagreeing with Yellow Canoe's assertion that down sizing to save energy requires a reduction in standard of living.

ralfy wrote:In capitalist systems involving competition, the reason for being more efficient is not to use less energy or even material resources but the opposite.

In a Capitalist system the reason to increase efficiency is to increase profit margins and the bottom line. Increasing energy and other resource inputs can increase the bottom line but only if each unit of production is done on a efficient and profitable basis.