WASHINGTON – In a triumph for President Barack Obama, the Democratic-controlled House narrowly passed sweeping legislation Friday that calls for the nation's first limits on pollution linked to global warming and aims to usher in a new era of cleaner, yet more costly energy.

The vote was 219-212, capping months of negotiations and days of intense bargaining among Democrats. Republicans were overwhelmingly against the measure, arguing it would destroy jobs in the midst of a recession while burdening consumers with a new tax in the form of higher energy costs.

At the White House, Obama said the bill would create jobs, and added that with its vote, the House had put America on a path toward leading the way toward "creating a 21st century global economy."

The House's action fulfilled Speaker Nancy Pelosi's vow to clear major energy legislation before July 4. It also sent the measure to a highly uncertain fate in the Senate, where Majority Leader Harry Reid said he was "hopeful that the Senate will be able to debate and pass bipartisan and comprehensive clean energy and climate legislation this fall."

Obama lobbied recalcitrant Democrats by phone from the White House as the House debate unfolded across several hours, and Al Gore posted a statement on his Web site saying the measure represents "an essential first step towards solving the climate crisis." The former vice president won a Nobel Peace Prize for his work drawing attention to the destructive potential of global warming.

On the House floor, Democrats hailed the legislation as historic, while Republicans said it would damage the economy without solving the nation's energy woes.

It is "the most important energy and environmental legislation in the history of our country," said Rep. Ed Markey of Massachusetts. "It sets a new course for our country, one that steers us away from foreign oil and towards a path of clean American energy."

But Rep. John Boehner, the House Republican leader, used an extraordinary one-hour speech shortly before the final vote to warn of unintended consequences in what he said was a "defining bill." He called it a "bureaucratic nightmare" that would cost jobs, depress real estate prices and put the government into parts of the economy where it now has no role.

The legislation would require the U.S. to reduce carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gas emissions by 17 percent from 2005 levels by 2020 and by about 80 percent by mid-century. That was slightly more aggressive than Obama originally wanted, 14 percent by 2020 and the same 80 percent by mid-century.

U.S. carbon dioxide emissions from the burning of fossil fuels are rising at about 1 percent a year and are predicted to continue increasing without mandatory limits.

Under the bill, the government would limit heat-trapping pollution from factories, refineries and power plants and issue allowances for polluters. Most of the allowances would be given away, but about 15 percent would be auctioned by bid and the proceeds used to defray higher energy costs for lower-income individuals and families.

"Some would like to do more. Some would like to do less," House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., said in advance of the final vote. "But we have reached a compromise ... and it is a compromise that can pass this House, pass that Senate, be signed by the president and become law and make progress."

That seemed unlikely, judging from Reid's cautiously worded statement. "The bill is not perfect," it said, but rather "a good product" for the Senate to begin working on.

And there was plenty to work on in a House-passed measure that pointed toward higher electricity bills for the middle class, particularly in the Midwest and South, as well as steps to ease the way for construction of new nuclear reactors, the first to be built since the accident at Three Mile Island in 1979.

The bill's controversy was on display in the House, where only eight Republicans joined 211 Democrats in favor, while 44 Democrats joined 168 Republicans in opposition. And within an hour of the vote, both party campaign committees had begun attacking lawmakers for their votes.

One of the biggest compromises involved the near total elimination of an administration plan to sell pollution permits and raise more than $600 billion over a decade — money to finance continuation of a middle class tax cut. About 85 percent of the permits are to be given away rather than sold, a concession to energy companies and their allies in the House — and even that is uncertain to survive in the Senate.

The final bill also contained concessions to satisfy farm-state lawmakers, ethanol producers, hydroelectric advocates, the nuclear industry and others, some of them so late that they were not made public until 3 a.m. on Friday.

Supporters and opponents agreed the bill's result would be higher energy costs but disagreed vigorously on the impact on consumers. Democrats pointed to two reports — one from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office and the other from the Environmental Protection Agency — that suggested average increases would be limited after tax credits and rebates were taken into account. The CBO estimated the bill would cost an average household $175 a year, the EPA $80 to $110 a year.

Republicans questioned the validity of the CBO study and noted that even that analysis showed actual energy production costs increasing $770 per household. Industry groups have cited other studies showing much higher costs to the economy and to individuals.

The White House and congressional Democrats argued the bill would create millions of "green jobs" as the nation shifts to greater reliance on renewable energy sources such as wind and solar and development of more fuel-efficient vehicles — and away from use of fossil fuels such as oil, gas and coal.

It will "make our nation the world leader on clean energy jobs and technology," declared Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., who negotiated deals with dozens of lawmakers in recent weeks to broaden the bill's support.

Pelosi, D-Calif., took an intense personal interest in the measure, sitting through hours of meetings with members of the rank and file and nurturing fragile compromises.

At its heart, the bill was a trade-off, less than the White House initially sought though it was more than Republicans said was acceptable. Some of the dealmaking had a distinct political feel. Rep. Alan Grayson, a first-term Democrat, won a pledge of support that $50 million from the proceeds of pollution permit sales in the bill would go to a proposed new hurricane research facility in his district in Orlando, Fla.

In the run-up to the vote, Democrats left little to chance.

Rep. Ellen Tauscher, D-Calif., confirmed by the Senate on Thursday to an administration post, put off her resignation from Congress until after the final vote on the climate change bill. And Rep. Patrick Kennedy, D-R.I., who has been undergoing treatment at an undisclosed facility, returned to the Capitol to support the legislation. He has said he struggles with depression, alcoholism and addiction, but has not specified the cause for his most recent absence.

___

On the Net:

American Clean Energy and Security Act: http://tinyurl.com/ph52vs

Tyburn

06-28-2009, 04:54 PM

Obama for change? That's all you'll have left in your pockets once your energy bill triples.

Whether or not you believe in global warming isnt the issue...the point is, we were put incharge of this planet by GOD to look after it. Everything costs money, and this is something you should be doing in order to look after the world regardless of what you believe...personally I believe the world is warming and climates are changing...but im not undully worried as I see its part of a natural cycle that we are just speeding up. It would have happened anyway...but regardless...you should care for GODs creation...and America should be leading the way...its a major area it hasnt bothered with, thanks to its low population, it hasnt been much of a loss...but its always nice for America to join the rest of us...even if she usually is late for our crusade :laugh:

NateR

06-28-2009, 06:16 PM

ABOUT TIME TOO

lets hope Obama signs Kyoto shall we.

Whether or not you believe in global warming isnt the issue...the point is, we were put incharge of this planet by GOD to look after it. Everything costs money, and this is something you should be doing in order to look after the world regardless of what you believe...personally I believe the world is warming and climates are changing...but im not undully worried as I see its part of a natural cycle that we are just speeding up. It would have happened anyway...but regardless...you should care for GODs creation...and America should be leading the way...its a major area it hasnt bothered with, thanks to its low population, it hasnt been much of a loss...but its always nice for America to join the rest of us...even if she usually is late for our crusade :laugh:

Yeah, let's just sign over our national sovereignty based on the theories of a bunch of crackpot scientists. This would be funny if we weren't actually signing over our freedoms based on false-science.:angry:

But I guess freedom can only be given up willingly and unfortunately enough people are stupid enough to buy into this whole Global Warming scam that they're happy to give up their freedom.

Idiots.

Buzzard

06-28-2009, 08:59 PM

Yeah, let's just sign over our national sovereignty based on the theories of a bunch of crackpot scientists. This would be funny if we weren't actually signing over our freedoms based on false-science.:angry:

But I guess freedom can only be given up willingly and unfortunately enough people are stupid enough to buy into this whole Global Warming scam that they're happy to give up their freedom.

Idiots.

What freedoms are being given up with this plan?

rockdawg21

06-28-2009, 10:36 PM

ABOUT TIME TOO

lets hope Obama signs Kyoto shall we.

Whether or not you believe in global warming isnt the issue...the point is, we were put incharge of this planet by GOD to look after it. Everything costs money, and this is something you should be doing in order to look after the world regardless of what you believe...personally I believe the world is warming and climates are changing...but im not undully worried as I see its part of a natural cycle that we are just speeding up. It would have happened anyway...but regardless...you should care for GODs creation...and America should be leading the way...its a major area it hasnt bothered with, thanks to its low population, it hasnt been much of a loss...but its always nice for America to join the rest of us...even if she usually is late for our crusade :laugh:
Yes, so the majority should just learn to live in poverty because according to the media, jackass politicians, and a few, as Nate says, crackpot scientists, we are ruining the planet. I'm not arguing that alternative energy isn't a natural progression, but to say that we are ruining the planet is such BS.

Tyburn

06-28-2009, 11:07 PM

Yes, so the majority should just learn to live in poverty because according to the media, jackass politicians, and a few, as Nate says, crackpot scientists, we are ruining the planet. I'm not arguing that alternative energy isn't a natural progression, but to say that we are ruining the planet is such BS.
Deforestation, is ruining the planet
fumes from anything that burns, is ruining the planet
dropping litter, is ruining the planet.

Just because you dont think its your job to sacrifice something for the planet, doesnt change the truth.

The majority of the rest of the world is already living in poverty...recently, because of YOUR country...so I wouldnt complain about joining the rest of us if I were you. :rolleyes:

You guys always blow EVERYTHING out of proportion. Well your government has made the decision for you, and in this particular case, I aggree with them.

Neezar

06-29-2009, 12:16 AM

Deforestation, is ruining the planet
fumes from anything that burns, is ruining the planet
dropping litter, is ruining the planet.

Just because you dont think its your job to sacrifice something for the planet, doesnt change the truth.

The majority of the rest of the world is already living in poverty...recently, because of YOUR country...so I wouldnt complain about joining the rest of us if I were you. :rolleyes:

You guys always blow EVERYTHING out of proportion. Well your government has made the decision for you, and in this particular case, I aggree with them.

You blame everything on US. I'm sure we somehow caused all the havoc in your life, too.

Taking a dump and flushing it is ruining the planet, Dave. So, please, why don't you stop! :laugh:
Absolutely everything we do essentially leads to the destruction of the earth in some shape or form.

Everything is heading towards death, even the earth. It is the natural order of things. May be the sooner, the better.

Neezar

06-29-2009, 12:24 AM

Global cooling will come back around on it's own.

:laugh:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i47/neezar086/1globalcooling.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i47/neezar086/1aglobalcooling.jpg

Tyburn

06-29-2009, 12:41 AM

You blame everything on US. I'm sure we somehow caused all the havoc in your life, too.

Taking a dump and flushing it is ruining the planet, Dave. So, please, why don't you stop! :laugh:
Absolutely everything we do essentially leads to the destruction of the earth in some shape or form.

Everything is heading towards death, even the earth. It is the natural order of things. May be the sooner, the better.
Cant Fault you there :blink:

Tyburn

06-29-2009, 12:42 AM

Global cooling will come back around on it's own.

:laugh:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i47/neezar086/1globalcooling.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i47/neezar086/1aglobalcooling.jpg
Well...I have been saying its part of a natural cycle...so...yes, after the heat comes the ice age...thats what causes the ice age infact :)

rockdawg21

06-29-2009, 02:04 AM

Deforestation, is ruining the planet
fumes from anything that burns, is ruining the planet
dropping litter, is ruining the planet.

Just because you dont think its your job to sacrifice something for the planet, doesnt change the truth.

The majority of the rest of the world is already living in poverty...recently, because of YOUR country...so I wouldnt complain about joining the rest of us if I were you. :rolleyes:

You guys always blow EVERYTHING out of proportion. Well your government has made the decision for you, and in this particular case, I aggree with them.
How is it truth? Is there any viable evidence or is this simply another crackpot "truth"?

We blow everything out of proportion? So, it's OUR fault the world is suffering? The United States gives more money to impoverished countries than any other nation on the planet. So how are WE blowing things out of proportion? Perhaps, it's you Dave. :laugh:

On the flipside, if we are blowing EVERYTHING out of proportion, then "global warming" caused by humans is being blown out of proportion. That also means this most recent energy bill is blowing things out of proportion. :tongue0011:

Tyburn

06-29-2009, 02:18 AM

So, it's OUR fault the world is suffering? The United States gives more money to impoverished countries than any other nation on the planet.

Where did the Recession start :huh:

rockdawg21

06-29-2009, 02:20 AM

Where did the Recession start :huh:
LOL, that's it? So the recession was all the U.S.' fault? How can you prove this?

I'm sure it was OUR fault the price of rice tripled in early 2008 as well? :laugh:

Tyburn

06-29-2009, 02:28 AM

LOL, that's it? So the recession was all the U.S.' fault? How can you prove this?

I'm sure it was OUR fault the price of rice tripled in early 2008 as well? :laugh:
Sub Prime United States decided to live off Credit, United States Banks let them.

When it all came crashing down the United States Citizens tried to stop the Government from saving the world.

The delay has cost the rest of the world ALOT. I am so sick of hearing how you think you have got it bad. You have it better then anywhere else in the whole world! your cost of living is less, your taxes are less, your petrol is less, your freedom is more.

Try to understand something...I am organizing a car boot sale so that I dont go into my overdraft again this next year. I am selling some of my belongings to make sure I have money for everything I need.

When you are selling your belongings to pay for your needs, then you can start complaining.

From what I hear of the artical above...it looks like they bearly got it through one place in Government and DONT look like they will get it through the other...so what are you upset about?

When your council starts to tax you for your waste disposal, and when you have an unellected President, come back to me. I've had a really terrible week, I feel really ill, and so I'm sorry if I sound like an arse, but you guys dont know how lucky you have it, compared to some other First World Countries....We're not talking Africa here...we are talking about how different and much better the standard of living is in the United States compared to your closest Allied Force.

I'm going to bed. :sad:

rockdawg21

06-29-2009, 02:45 AM

So how did the citizens keep the government from saving the world? Also, how would the U.S. save the world?

I haven't once said, nor seen anybody else on this forum who have said we have it bad in the United States and anybody who does think that or says that needs to go spend a few weeks in a 3rd world country to get a taste of that life. I spent 3 weeks in the Philippines when I went to meet my wife in person for the first time. Even before that trip, I've always thanked God for the simple things I have in life...fresh water, air conditioning, food, clothing, cars, work, etc. I do agree though, most people take those things for granted, and those are things for which my wife and I thank God every day.

I am taxed for waste disposal, every month. It's not that way everywhere here, but my community has us pay for waste disposal and recycling. It's a good thing :)

Dave, I'm sorry to hear about those things, I really am. And definitely hope you get to feeling better, but it certainly isn't helping your health to point all the blame at the United States.

Hope you feel better in the morning man!

NateR

06-29-2009, 02:54 AM

The majority of the rest of the world is already living in poverty...recently, because of YOUR country...so I wouldnt complain about joining the rest of us if I were you. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

This is one of the most ridiculous and uneducated statements on this forum. Seriously Dave you can't really be this stupid.

KENTUCKYREDBONE

06-29-2009, 08:21 AM

If we have it so much better than everybody else why should we copy off everybody else? Here's a few thoughts.
1-Instead of blaming America for your Counties problems, blame the Folks that are in charge of your country!

2-Instead of trying to make America as poor as you say everybody else is they should be trying to bring themselves up to where you say we are!
In other words we ain't trying to stop Y'All from improving your life so stop blaming us for all of YOUR problems.

3- You say we are a rich Country. Well if we are why should we want to become poor and hungry?

4-Since when was it so bad to desire Freedom? Why is it so bad to cherish and protect the Freedom we have been blessed with?

5-Why is it so great to be controlled that much by any human or Human institution like Government? The way I see it is that our Freedom was given to us by God not Government! So Government should not be taking away but rather protecting!

6-As for Kyoto I see no reason we should let any other country tell us how much energy we can use or even what kind of energy we can use!

Tyburn

06-29-2009, 09:51 AM

Will some of you do me a favour...

Would you list some positive things about your Government?
Would you list some things that you should be thankful for?

Rather then telling me how bad you have it under your government...which is the jist of almost every politic thread about American politics sinse the Wallstreet Wobble...perhaps you'd like to remind me how Great America is...what is Good about the place...how it stands out from the rest...how its people have more freedom then anywhere else.

Tell me some positives :)

Understand...I dont want to hear about how you think your Government is oppressing you or stealing your freedoms...when compared to mine, or other places...your Government isnt really doing anything at all.

rockdawg21

06-29-2009, 12:11 PM

Positive things about our government:

Foreign grants from 2000 to 2007:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/09s1257.pdf
In 2000, the U.S. gave over $17,000,000,000 in total grants to foreign countries. By 2007, that amount nearly doubled to over $31,000,000,000.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/09s1258.pdf
Between 1980-2006, the U.S. Government gave $39,039,000,000 in total foreign assistance and over $12,000,000,000 in total military assistance.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/09s1259.pdf
Here's the same list but sorted by country. As you can tell, nearly $27,000,000,000 in foreign economic aid plus, $12,000,000,000 in military aid was distributed by the U.S. in 2006.

Perhaps we could have simply kept all of that money to ourselves and there definitely wouldn't be an economic problem here in the U.S.

Thankful for:
Life
Liberty
Right to pursue happiness
My family
My car
Food
Fresh water
Air conditioning/heater
Clothing
Freedom of speech
Freedom of the press
Freedom of religion
Our military and its' devoted servicemen
Our allies
Need I continue?

Dave, you're saying that it's the U.S.' fault for the worldwide recession and seem to believe we are the ones who will save everybody, yet, you support this energy climate bill that will effectively triple the utility costs of every American home. How do you expect anybody here to have money to afford that and be able to pay off their current debt? It's a stupid political ploy that a bunch of crackpot scientists and left-wing radicals have suckered, well, suckers into believing it's the right thing to do.

Tyburn

06-29-2009, 01:46 PM

Right to pursue happiness
.
Keeping the money to yourself would have made the reccession worse, I could explain it, but I dont think I'll bother :)

I dont particularly support this piece of Legislation...what I dislike is the fact that you guys do nothing but complain about your Government and say nothing but what problems you will have. Compared to the rest of the world, your Domestic Government is benign, and you have almost no restrictions placed upon you.

It disturbs me to hear you go on and on about your freedoms being violated, your privacy being taken away, your contempt at being told what to do. When you ignore the selfishness and the Greedy aspects of your Industry and your Citizenry that are of far more concern to the rest of the world then your Government.

I want to be cheered up. I want to hear how GOOD America is...because I am living in a place so much worse then the vast majority of you I imagine.

Incidently, I have highlighted this one area of your quote to ask you a serious question. Nietzsche says that we should all be permitted to discover and realize our true potential, he calls this "becoming" His works are often viewed as very dark...but one thing he says is that he draws the line on finding your becoming IF it harms someone around you.

Should you still have the freedom to "seek Happiness" if that leaves other people in misery by whatever it takes to realize your dream. The most horrific thing about "the American Dream" is that its actually nothing more then Darwinian Survival of the Fittest. Everyone should have the chance to succeed...but its very much "make your mistakes, but no second chances" If things go wrong, its very much thought that natural to leave that persons hopes and dreams in the gutter with them...it was the start of capitalism which is out for only one thing...itself....and by the way...much of the freedom it brings is an illusion...infact rather then being freed, we discover just how much in bondage we are too the financial world...which is where American went fundementally wrong.

Freedom suddenly meant, no restrictions...rather then Doing what is Right in the eyes of GOD

Regardless of that, I still firmly believe its so much better then anywhere else, and the people are so much better then anywhere else also. It just depresses me when they havent a nice word to say about their own Country or leadership :unsure-1:

rearnakedchoke

06-29-2009, 03:23 PM

:rolleyes:

This is one of the most ridiculous and uneducated statements on this forum. Seriously Dave you can't really be this stupid.
I was waiting for this .... read his statement and thought, when is Nate gonna reply ... LOL ... I assume the US was also responsible for the earthquakes, tsunamis, tornados and hurricanes that leave millions hungry and homeless each year ...

Tyburn

06-29-2009, 03:27 PM

I was waiting for this .... read his statement and thought, when is Nate gonna reply ... LOL ... I assume the US was also responsible for the earthquakes, tsunamis, tornados and hurricanes that leave millions hungry and homeless each year ...
:laugh: I dont hold the US responsible for that :rolleyes:

Crisco

06-29-2009, 05:24 PM

America has a good balance. It is a give and take.

KENTUCKYREDBONE

06-29-2009, 08:15 PM

Good thing is that so far we still got the right to say our Government Folks are wrong! We even got the right to call them idiots if we so choose. In some places we still have the right to own a firearm. We still have the right to carry pocket knives! Our Constitution when followed is still a pretty good Document to follow!

Play The Man

06-29-2009, 09:12 PM

Will some of you do me a favour...

Would you list some positive things about your Government?
Would you list some things that you should be thankful for?

Rather then telling me how bad you have it under your government...which is the jist of almost every politic thread about American politics sinse the Wallstreet Wobble...perhaps you'd like to remind me how Great America is...what is Good about the place...how it stands out from the rest...how its people have more freedom then anywhere else.

Tell me some positives :)

Understand...I dont want to hear about how you think your Government is oppressing you or stealing your freedoms...when compared to mine, or other places...your Government isnt really doing anything at all.

I think a book by Arthur Brooks entitled Who Really Cares at least partially answers your question about what is good about America. I read the book but I think it is packed up in a box right now so I can't reference it at the moment. In brief, America is an incredibly generous country. Below is a quote from Brooks from an internet article that offers some proof:

Q. Are Americans more or less charitable than citizens of other countries?
A. No developed country approaches American giving. For example, in 1995 (the most recent year for which data are available), Americans gave, per capita, three and a half times as much to causes and charities as the French, seven times as much as the Germans, and 14 times as much as the Italians. Similarly, in 1998, Americans were 15 percent more likely to volunteer their time than the Dutch, 21 percent more likely than the Swiss, and 32 percent more likely than the Germans. These differences are not attributable to demographic characteristics such as education, income, age, sex, or marital status. On the contrary, if we look at two people who are identical in all these ways except that one is European and the other American, the probability is still far lower that the European will volunteer than the American.

Brooks goes on to show that American conservatives are much more generous than American liberals. Their generosity not only encompasses giving to religious charities but secular ones as well. In addition, their generosity is expressed not just in monetary gifts; conservatives are much more likely to volunteer their time than liberals (to both religious and secular activities). The findings appear to be robust - conservatives are even more likely to donate blood than liberals. Brooks found that the conservative/liberal difference was explained by religion. Liberal religious believers were as generous as conservatives but there were few liberal religious believers as compared to conservative religious believers so the conservative statistics were much more impressive.

Americans work more hours per week than most Europeans and take less vacation time. In addition, America's productivity per hour worked is quite high compared to other countries. We are wealthy, yes, but we work hard for it. Could we be more generous and more hard-working? YES; however, I don't think Europeans should be lecturing us. I think this is a case where Europeans should worry about the beam in their own eye rather than the mote in America's eye.

I think a book by Arthur Brooks entitled Who Really Cares at least partially answers your question about what is good about America. I read the book but I think it is packed up in a box right now so I can't reference it at the moment. In brief, America is an incredibly generous country. Below is a quote from Brooks from an internet article that offers some proof:

Brooks goes on to show that American conservatives are much more generous than American liberals. Their generosity not only encompasses giving to religious charities but secular ones as well. In addition, their generosity is expressed not just in monetary gifts; conservatives are much more likely to volunteer their time than liberals (to both religious and secular activities). The findings appear to be robust - conservatives are even more likely to donate blood than liberals. Brooks found that the conservative/liberal difference was explained by religion. Liberal religious believers were as generous as conservatives but there were few liberal religious believers as compared to conservative religious believers so the conservative statistics were much more impressive.

Americans work more hours per week than most Europeans and take less vacation time. In addition, America's productivity per hour worked is quite high compared to other countries. We are wealthy, yes, but we work hard for it. Could we be more generous and more hard-working? YES; however, I don't think Europeans should be lecturing us. I think this is a case where Europeans should worry about the beam in their own eye rather than the mote in America's eye.

That extends to Hospitality aswell. :w00t: there is no place on Earth that is more...I dont know what the word is...Chivilrous I guess, then visiting America. The People are so nice...even in the Cities compared to people in Europe.

For example, you can actually talk and smile and say good morning to people you dont know in America. That doesnt happen in this country very often at all. :sad:

I actually spoke to an Rich Franklin about this somewhat, he brought it up, when I asked him how his trip to Germany went. As a UFC fighter they really do seem to send him a lot of places abroad, Ireland, Continental Europe, his name keeps coming up on these cards. I just asked him if he had enjoyed himself in Koln.. He said that he got a suprisingly warm welcome considering he was American...I thought that was an odd thing to say...he seemed to indicate that Americans dont always get such a welcome...which I think is really sad...Unfortunately, Americans can never seem to get the same hospitality offered to them outside of their Country...it must mean that sometimes traveling to another country must be a little bit of a let-down I suppose.

I always love traveling to the United States, I've only been once, but I knew I would love it...I loved it the moment I got onto the plane :w00t: They say that if you walk around America and have an English Accent, you get treated like Royalty...and from my experience thats absolutely True :happydancing:

I remember this woman in this burger bar thing, asked me Twice if I wanted salad on my burger just so she could hear me pronounce Toe-Mar-Toe again. She told me they call it Tom-a-toe :laugh:

Play The Man

06-29-2009, 10:05 PM

I remember this woman in this burger bar thing, asked me Twice if I wanted salad on my burger just so she could hear me pronounce Toe-Mar-Toe again. She told me they call it Tom-a-toe :laugh:

If I was the burger bar man I would have asked you to say, in your best Oliver Twist imitation, "Please, sir . . . can I have some more?" :laugh:

Tyburn

06-29-2009, 10:16 PM

If I was the burger bar man I would have asked you to say, in your best Oliver Twist imitation, "Please, sir . . . can I have some more?" :laugh:
"MORE?!? You want MORE???" :laugh:

I really feel I should appologise for screwing up this thread and potentially needlessly upsetting a lot of people. I do Appologise...I had a dreadful week...and I have SOOO taken it out on some of my friends :unsure-1:

do you all forgive me :huh: :mellow:

Neezar

06-30-2009, 03:10 AM

Try to understand something...I am organizing a car boot sale so that I dont go into my overdraft again this next year. I am selling some of my belongings to make sure I have money for everything I need.

When you are selling your belongings to pay for your needs, then you can start complaining.

And you are taking a trip overseas while selling off belongings to pay for your needs? :huh:

What is wrong with you?

Tyburn

06-30-2009, 11:58 AM

And you are taking a trip overseas while selling off belongings to pay for your needs? :huh:

What is wrong with you?
The Money for the Trip is NOT MINE, I dont know how many bloody times I need to say this to you. Over and over again.

I have NEVER been to America on MY OWN MONEY...and the money given to me is for that use, and that use ONLY.

Just because you made an offer you thought was well beyond my means of ever accepting, and then backed out when the funds appeared...doesnt mean the funds I used belonged to me. We are talking about Inheritance Money from a LIVING RELATIVE who has instructed me what I CAN and CANT spend the money on...or else I cant have it.

Incidently, I suppose I should tell you that I also have 10Thousand Stirling. But once again, that is Money that doesnt belong to me, and its in reserve in case I ever get married, or for a deposit on a permanent House. Its tied up in bonds belonging to other relatives right now.

You've been told where the money for the States Tour has come from on SEVERAL occasions in the past, again and again for the last two years, so stop making me out to look like a financial dumbass when you KNOW what the situation with that area is. Its being paid FOR ME. Ergo...NOT MY MONEY :rolleyes:

Neezar

06-30-2009, 07:35 PM

The Money for the Trip is NOT MINE, I dont know how many bloody times I need to say this to you. Over and over again.

I have NEVER been to America on MY OWN MONEY...and the money given to me is for that use, and that use ONLY.

Just because you made an offer you thought was well beyond my means of ever accepting, and then backed out when the funds appeared...doesnt mean the funds I used belonged to me. We are talking about Inheritance Money from a LIVING RELATIVE who has instructed me what I CAN and CANT spend the money on...or else I cant have it.

Incidently, I suppose I should tell you that I also have 10Thousand Stirling. But once again, that is Money that doesnt belong to me, and its in reserve in case I ever get married, or for a deposit on a permanent House. Its tied up in bonds belonging to other relatives right now.

You've been told where the money for the States Tour has come from on SEVERAL occasions in the past, again and again for the last two years, so stop making me out to look like a financial dumbass when you KNOW what the situation with that area is. Its being paid FOR ME. Ergo...NOT MY MONEY :rolleyes:

Well, I had heard that about the first trip but not the second. Does your living relative requiring you to use money for a trip to America know that you are selling off your personal belongings in order to survive?

Neezar

06-30-2009, 07:41 PM

I read that some economists are estimating the average cost per year PER household could be $3,300 a year to carry out this bill. :sad:

Crisco

06-30-2009, 07:50 PM

I read that some economists are estimating the average cost per year PER household could be $3,300 a year to carry out this bill. :sad:

I guess I need to take up some kind of mercenary work.

VCURamFan

06-30-2009, 07:51 PM

I guess I need to take up some kind of mercenary work.Weren't you, Mike & I supposed to start protecting ships against pirates?

I would do it for free but hell I have costs to cover. Bullets are crazy expensive plus travel... and we'd have to buy a decent boat...

I'll go in a heart beat if they offer proper me a good price.

Tyburn

06-30-2009, 08:31 PM

Well, I had heard that about the first trip but not the second. Does your living relative requiring you to use money for a trip to America know that you are selling off your personal belongings in order to survive?
It more complicated then that.

There is something big I need to pay for, thats what the carboot sale will pay for. I wouldnt be able to survive if I used my own funds for this thing...but I just cant do without it. :laugh:

VCURamFan

06-30-2009, 08:49 PM

They didn't make it legal and have it pay yet.

I would do it for free but hell I have costs to cover. Bullets are crazy expensive plus travel... and we'd have to buy a decent boat...

I'll go in a heart beat if they offer proper me a good price.OK, well let me know. Being a philosophy major, I can talk at 'em while you & Mike circle behind. Then y'all open fire from the back while I blast away from the front. Hammer/Anvil time, baby!

Neezar

07-01-2009, 12:21 PM

It more complicated then that.

There is something big I need to pay for, thats what the carboot sale will pay for. I wouldnt be able to survive if I used my own funds for this thing...but I just cant do without it. :laugh:

Try to understand something...I am organizing a car boot sale so that I dont go into my overdraft again this next year. I am selling some of my belongings to make sure I have money for everything I need.

When you are selling your belongings to pay for your needs, then you can start complaining.

I'm going to bed. :sad:

Tyburn

07-01-2009, 07:18 PM

Didn't sound so complicated before. But, yes, sounds a bit different now.....
I do need it. There is no point in me doing a States Trip if I dont have it. But I cant afford it on the States Trip Money, and I cant afford it on the budgit I'm on.

For it to be worth while going to the U.S at all...its a direct NEED....I live a hard life, and I am entitled to a holiday...it is about the only thing during this recession that I am looking forward to.

I just need extra money to make it worth going period...If I dont sell stuff to raise the money I shall have to use my own money...if I do that I shall end up in my overdraft...and within several months I shall not only be bankrupt...I shall also have huge debts.

Not that I need to explain my financial situation to you Denise, its so cruel that you have gone about making me look a dumbass when you knew otherwise. :sad:

I shall raise the money, I shall buy what I need, I shall go on a well deserved break on inheritance money...and I shall ENJOY every moment of it.

END of discussion

Crisco

07-01-2009, 07:23 PM

I do need it. There is no point in me doing a States Trip if I dont have it. But I cant afford it on the States Trip Money, and I cant afford it on the budgit I'm on.

For it to be worth while going to the U.S at all...its a direct NEED....I live a hard life, and I am entitled to a holiday...it is about the only thing during this recession that I am looking forward to.

I just need extra money to make it worth going period...If I dont sell stuff to raise the money I shall have to use my own money...if I do that I shall end up in my overdraft...and within several months I shall not only be bankrupt...I shall also have huge debts.

Not that I need to explain my financial situation to you Denise, its so cruel that you have gone about making me look a dumbass when you knew otherwise. :sad:

I shall raise the money, I shall buy what I need, I shall go on a well deserved break on inheritance money...and I shall ENJOY every moment of it.

END of discussion

I'm locking this thread before it gets out of hand.

Tyburn

07-01-2009, 07:50 PM

I'm locking this thread before it gets out of hand.
:laugh:

Neezar

07-02-2009, 12:49 AM

I do need it. There is no point in me doing a States Trip if I dont have it. But I cant afford it on the States Trip Money, and I cant afford it on the budgit I'm on.

For it to be worth while going to the U.S at all...its a direct NEED....I live a hard life, and I am entitled to a holiday...it is about the only thing during this recession that I am looking forward to.

I just need extra money to make it worth going period...If I dont sell stuff to raise the money I shall have to use my own money...if I do that I shall end up in my overdraft...and within several months I shall not only be bankrupt...I shall also have huge debts.

Not that I need to explain my financial situation to you Denise, its so cruel that you have gone about making me look a dumbass when you knew otherwise. :sad:

I shall raise the money, I shall buy what I need, I shall go on a well deserved break on inheritance money...and I shall ENJOY every moment of it.

END of discussion

No, you didn't need to explain it to me. And I didn't set out to make you look like a dumbass. You made a statement that I took to imply something and I asked for clarification. End of story.

However, I did find it ironic that you were using your poverty as a credential to attempt to put a guilt trip on someone when it is likely that person doesn't have the money or the means (i.e. relative with inheritance) to take a holiday overseas and YOU are chastising him.

:laugh:

Play The Man

07-02-2009, 05:58 AM

I do need it. There is no point in me doing a States Trip if I dont have it. But I cant afford it on the States Trip Money, and I cant afford it on the budgit I'm on.

For it to be worth while going to the U.S at all...its a direct NEED....I live a hard life, and I am entitled to a holiday...it is about the only thing during this recession that I am looking forward to.

I just need extra money to make it worth going period...If I dont sell stuff to raise the money I shall have to use my own money...if I do that I shall end up in my overdraft...and within several months I shall not only be bankrupt...I shall also have huge debts.

Not that I need to explain my financial situation to you Denise, its so cruel that you have gone about making me look a dumbass when you knew otherwise. :sad:

I shall raise the money, I shall buy what I need, I shall go on a well deserved break on inheritance money...and I shall ENJOY every moment of it.

END of discussion
I have two words of advice for anyone in England looking for money: metal detector!

MORE than a thousand years ago a Saxon thief, desperate to hide his plunder, stashed a hoard of stolen gold in what is today a nondescript West Yorkshire field.
What became of the thief is lost to the ages and his precious loot lay safely buried in that same field for the next millennium.

There it remained until a treasure hunter, out with his trusty metal detector last year, experienced the moment he will never forget when he unearthed the amazing find on the farmland near Leeds.

Archaeological experts say they believe the three gold rings, half a gold ingot and part of a brooch date from the 9th-11th century.

After the inquest, he told the YEP that a valuer said the haul could have a market value of up to £100,000.

Tyburn

07-02-2009, 12:05 PM

No, you didn't need to explain it to me. And I didn't set out to make you look like a dumbass. You made a statement that I took to imply something and I asked for clarification. End of story.

However, I did find it ironic that you were using your poverty as a credential to attempt to put a guilt trip on someone when it is likely that person doesn't have the money or the means (i.e. relative with inheritance) to take a holiday overseas and YOU are chastising him.

:laugh:
I am poor, and certain Americans are to blame for making a tough finanical situation harder.

Tyburn

07-02-2009, 12:06 PM

I have two words of advice for anyone in England looking for money: metal detector!

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/Yorkshire-treasure-stash-unearthed-after.5372458.jp
:ninja: thats quite close to me...I live in North Yorkshire :laugh:

NateR

07-03-2009, 04:17 PM

I am poor, and certain Americans are to blame for making a tough finanical situation harder.

Yeah, that's it blame someone else.:rolleyes: How much money did you spend on your last trip to America and how much is it going to cost you this time? Have you ever thought about using that money to open up a saving account and actually holding onto it? But instead you are going to splurge it on a trip to a country that you believe is keeping you in poverty? If this is all true, then you're the only one making yourself look like a dumbass. :rolleyes:

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not some great financial expert and I tend to spend money as fast as I receive it as well. However, I don't blame anyone but myself when I run out of money. Maybe you should look in the mirror to see who is really to blame for your poverty.

Anyways, ignoring Dave's ignorant and silly remarks for a moment, back on topic. I've been reading Glenn Beck's new book, Common Sense, and I like what he has to say about this all these environmental regulations:

Do these men truly believe what they're saying? Do they honestly believe that the environment can really be "saved" through government intervention or is the environment just a vehicle toward the Progressive ideal of total government rule?

...

We are told that humans are destroying the planet and that only scientists (the "experts") or the very rich, very famous, or very powerful can save it. I guess maybe those people are so busy flying on their private jets attending international climate conferences and accusing us of poisoning the planet that they either don't notice their hypocrisy or they accept it as the price for the great work they're supposedly doing.

We don't trust the political class because they no longer find shame in their own hypocrisy.

Neezar

07-03-2009, 04:28 PM

Do these men truly believe what they're saying? Do they honestly believe that the environment can really be "saved" through government intervention or is the environment just a vehicle toward the Progressive ideal of total government rule?

...

We are told that humans are destroying the planet and that only scientists (the "experts") or the very rich, very famous, or very powerful can save it. I guess maybe those people are so busy flying on their private jets attending international climate conferences and accusing us of poisoning the planet that they either don't notice their hypocrisy or they accept it as the price for the great work they're supposedly doing.

We don't trust the political class because they no longer find shame in their own hypocrisy.

Exactly.

Just like Gore who racks up thousands of dollars in an electricity bill every month while preaching the word of global warming and energy saving. :laugh:

I have a hard time trusting 'the experts'. I heard on the radio that the Earth had shown a trend of cooler climates in the past decade. The experts say, "Yeah but that is only because the sun is in a cooling phase. " Can anyone explain that? :huh:

Tyburn

07-03-2009, 04:45 PM

Yeah, that's it blame someone else.:rolleyes: How much money did you spend on your last trip to America and how much is it going to cost you this time? Have you ever thought about using that money to open up a saving account and actually holding onto it? But instead you are going to splurge it on a trip to a country that you believe is keeping you in poverty? If this is all true, then you're the only one making yourself look like a dumbass. :rolleyes:

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not some great financial expert and I tend to spend money as fast as I receive it as well. However, I don't blame anyone but myself when I run out of money. Maybe you should look in the mirror to see who is really to blame for your poverty.

before you start name calling, perhaps you should READ. The MONEY for ALL the STATES TRIPS is NOT MINE!! and It can ONLY be spent ON something like that. Do you understand?? I cant use it for general purpose...its Inheritance money from a LIVING Relative.

And whilst we're at it...perhaps YOU should do some research into the Credit Crunch...your beloved Freedom for Banks and Certain parts of your Country are wholly to blame...Listen to what the Scriptures say about the MISS USE of Freedom.

"Live as those who are free, and yet without using your freedoms, as a pre-text for Evil" 1 Peter 2 16-18

It is about time you guys condemned those to blame, for their Selfishness, for their Greed, for their abuse of others neivety, and admit what would have happened if the Government had listened to your egocentric whinning.

READ the thread before you post Nathan :angry:

Neezar

07-03-2009, 05:03 PM

I am poor, and certain Americans are to blame for making a tough finanical situation harder.

What exactly happened to make your situation harder? Specifics please.

You were so poor before that you had not an extra penny (sterling/pound whatever). How could it have gotten worse yet you are still making it fine it seems?

It appears that the only difference is that now you have somewhere else to place the blame.

NateR

07-03-2009, 05:15 PM

Exactly.

Just like Gore who racks up thousands of dollars in an electricity bill every month while preaching the word of global warming and energy saving. :laugh:

I have a hard time trusting 'the experts'. I heard on the radio that the Earth had shown a trend of cooler climates in the past decade. The experts say, "Yeah but that is only because the sun is in a cooling phase. " Can anyone explain that? :huh:

These self-proclaimed "experts" on the climate can't ever seem to get their story straight. In the 1970s it was "global cooling" but then the evidence refuted that. Then it became "global warming" but now that theory is in the crapper because of dropping temperatures and expanding polar ice caps. Now it's just the generic term "climate change" which is so broad it can mean anything.

These "experts" can't even get their own facts straight and yet we're supposed to give them total control over how we live our lives based on their vague theories?

Why are we trusting our lives to "experts" anyway? Wasn't it experts who claimed that the Titanic was unsinkable? Wasn't it experts who specifically designed the World Trade Center towers to withstand several impacts from fully loaded jet liners without collapsing?

But I'm sure they'll get it right this time.:rolleyes:

Tyburn

07-03-2009, 05:19 PM

What exactly happened to make your situation harder? Specifics please.

You were so poor before that you had not an extra penny (sterling/pound whatever). How could it have gotten worse yet you are still making it fine it seems?

It appears that the only difference is that now you have somewhere else to place the blame.
Well its like this Denise.

See I'm in a low paid job, I have my own flat which is more then a lot of people my age in England...most people either flat share...or they live with their parents...or they are married and have breadwinners in high paid jobs.

I could bearly afford to live...that is why I am on the computer all the time. I have no money for a proper social life, I can only afford to go to the cinema once a month, subsidized by vouchers given to me as a Birthday Present.

I have little savings because of the HUGE cost of living down in London whilst I was at Saint Paul's. Over the past three years I clawed back a 100K STIRLING overdraft by living off only 30per week for everything. That was fine, and early THIS year FOUR YEARS after LEAVING London I managed to actually break out of my overdraft and become solvent.

Then Greedy Banks in the United States started packaging and selling complex bonds and shyte in the Sub Prime Market of the United States (they had the unregulated freedom to do so) many people took them up on their offer, and began to buy mortgages and stuff and live off Credit. Which was fine until the Bank required the money.

Then the buyers couldnt pay the banks...and the banks couldnt pay the people who were invested in them...because they play with your money to earn themselves more capital.

When that happened...everyone lost trust in their banks...it looked like they had no money...so everyone started a run, thinking "well best get my money out before the banks have absolutely no money" Banks arent made to give out all the money at any one time...and thats when the banks started going bust...like some bloody stack of dominos...the banks on Wallstreet started to go bankrupt! now...the Dollar (which is the money financially they were using, underpins the world economy) Before you know it...this chain of events were hitting banks in Europe which depended on banks in the United States.

Global Recession begins, and The United States Government decides to give the banks the money...and half the population of America scream "no", they are frightened of their rights being violated...the same rights they abused to cause the problem...they think the bankers should pay..but the bankers already have their millions from years of bad practise under capitalism. Punishing the banks only punishes the rest of the world...the Bankers dont care...the worst that happens to those truely responsible is early retirement as millionaires! The US Government delays...meanwhiles banks and with it businesses are collapsing ALL OVER the bloody world!! Other Governments begin to join together to nationalize the banks. Those least protected were hit the hardest. We had a dumbass Treasurer in office for ten years, whilst a Government worked on ruining the Education system, following an illicit war, and cost cutting on our Health Service...think they were prepared?

So...what do they do...well...all the prices rise, and the wages stay the same. So now...I somehow have to find EXTRA money to live off THE SAME ammount. You see how that is a LONG way from being my fault :huh:

Tyburn

07-03-2009, 05:27 PM

Why are we trusting our lives to "experts" anyway? Wasn't it experts who claimed that the Titanic was unsinkable? Wasn't it experts who specifically designed the World Trade Center towers to withstand several impacts from fully loaded jet liners without collapsing?

But I'm sure they'll get it right this time.:rolleyes:

The Titanic would have been fine if she hadnt been speeding to impress, if she hadnt been disregarding proper procedures.

The Experts do base their things on the assumption that perameters dont change. If anyone had asked the expert if they thought she'd still be unsinkable after colliding with an iceberg whilst travelling WELL over the speed limit...they might not have been so sure.

But she had the freedom to go faster then reccomended...she did...and now she lies at the bottom of the Ocean.

That is not the Experts fault. :laugh:

As for the WTC...dont know much about that I'm afraid...maybe the Experts are to blame for that :unsure-1:

Neezar

07-03-2009, 05:29 PM

We had a dumbass Treasurer in office for ten years, whilst a Government worked on ruining the Education system, following an illicit war, and cost cutting on our Health Service...think they were prepared?

verra verra interesting...:scratchchin:

So...what do they do...well...all the prices rise, and the wages stay the same. So now...I somehow have to find EXTRA money to live off THE SAME ammount. You see how that is a LONG way from being my fault :huh:

So, did your rent go up? You phone bill? Food?

Neezar

07-03-2009, 05:33 PM

These self-proclaimed "experts" on the climate can't ever seem to get their story straight. In the 1970s it was "global cooling" but then the evidence refuted that. Then it became "global warming" but now that theory is in the crapper because of dropping temperatures and expanding polar ice caps. Now it's just the generic term "climate change" which is so broad it can mean anything.

Climates are going to change no matter what we ever do. I still can't believe that people are going to give the government the power to chose how we use the energy that we pay for over something based on 'climate change'.

The cost of Food went up slightly...but it was really things like Amenities...so for example All the stuff with TV/Broadband went up...thank GOD I can drop Setanta soon!! Council Tax, National Insurance, and Income Tax all went up :sad:

It could have been a lot worse Denise...it could have been ALOT worse.

What I really need which would solve everything is a better paying job...but its a recession...companies are collapsing, unemployment is rising...noone is recruiting because they cant afford to pay the staff they've got!! let alone pay more.

Not kidding British Airways have forced their employees to either work for Free, work paid half time...or go on unpaid leave for a WHOLE MONTH this summer :laugh:

You see...I have a job, and cruddy though it is, its a job in a stable market...short of Wal-Mart pulling out of ASDA...that chances are high that my job is one of the most safe in the country...how sensible would it be to move to an instable market where in the next year I might be laid off? Do you follow??

I want to move, and Am begining to look now I hope the worst of the recession is over...but I'm not confident of how wise it would be to leave a SAFE job in the current financial environment. :unsure-1:

NateR

07-03-2009, 05:39 PM

Climates are going to change no matter what we ever do. I still can't believe that people are going to give the government the power to chose how we use the energy that we pay for over something based on 'climate change'.

Facepalm! (Is that right? lol)

It's just a bunch of fear mongering and scare tactics. There's really no reliable science behind all of this climate change nonsense. It's just the latest tactic that the government is using to seize power. I still can't believe that people are stupid enough to buy into it, though.

Play The Man

07-06-2009, 06:32 AM

:ninja: thats quite close to me...I live in North Yorkshire :laugh:

Have you gotten your metal detector yet?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/suffolk/8133440.stm

One of the UK's largest hauls of Iron Age gold coins has been declared treasure at an inquest in Suffolk.

The 840 handmade coins, called staters, were unearthed in a field near Wickham Market, Suffolk, in March last year.

After Michael Dark made the discovery with his metal detector, archaeologists found more coins, which are now at the British Museum in London.

Experts believe they were produced by predecessors of the Iceni queen Boudicca and date from 40BC to AD15.

It is the largest haul of coins to be discovered in 150 years and could be worth up to £500,000. :wink: