An Exclusive Interview for The BRAD BLOG as Guest Blogged by Joy and Tom Williams…

Mike Papantonio and Bobby Kennedy co-host Ring of Fire on Air America. The two attorneys have filed qui tam lawsuits against the Electronic Voting Machine (EVM) companies for defrauding the government. We previously posted an exclusive interview with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. about this case.

We would like to say something about what a dynamic and articulate man he is, and how much we think he's doing for our country, but, really, res ipsa loquitur, the thing speaks for itself, and this is no accident. Mike Papantonio is a hard-working, extremely generous, friendly and personable --- and dedicated --- man. One would be hard-pressed to find a better duo for the difficult job ahead. The Kennedy/Papantonio alliance is a particularly brilliant one. Mike took the time to talk to us about aspects of the qui tam cases they have set in motion already...

BRAD BLOG: Can you tell us about these qui tam cases?

MIKE PAPANTONIO: What we're doing with these qui tam cases is really not much different than the approach we used in the national tobacco litigation. We’ve put together that same kind of team, not the same people, but the same kind of people who are used to working with complex litigation. Because of that, there’s a benefit to the U.S. attorney saying, “Well, you know, we don’t know if we really want to do this.” And once they say that, those are the golden words that will allow us to go in and handle the case ourselves. Exactly like we’ve done with tobacco, asbestos, virtually every major pharmaceutical case in the country, it’s always originated with the same kind of lawyers. And those are the kind of lawyers that do fairly complex stuff.

BB: I want to thank you for doing those cases, by the way, Mike.

MP: Thank you for saying that, sometimes it just takes a while to register, to where you say, well you know, I didn’t want to have to do this, but apparently we have to. That’s how I feel about this right now.

BB: How do you feel about the idea that you might be saving our Democracy?

MP:Morris Dees is a civil rights lawyer and a very good friend of mine. As a matter of fact he started the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery. If you talk to someone like Morris, and you ask him, what is it that brought some closure, some beginning for closure to the civil rights movement, he’d say it was really no one event; it was kind of a collection of displaced separate events. That’s always stuck with me, because with anything that’s worth doing, it’s rare that you will accomplish it with one event that you are able to manage, or one success that you are able to gain. It rarely works like that. I think there are some similarities here, just like I thought the same thing with tobacco. When we first started talking about tobacco, everybody thought we were pretty much nuts, because we were taking on some of the biggest corporations in the world. But it wasn’t just our effort, it had been the effort of people who’d gone before us, and all we did was take what they'd already done for us and make it a little bit better --- a small reinvention of the wheel, in a way that just helped the wheel roll a little better. It’s the same thing here.

I think of Lowell Finley. Lowell Finley is a great lawyer who’s handled these voter cases a long time, but he’s had to handle them by himself. First of all there's the economics of it, and if all you are doing is going to court and arguing with some Judge, about the fact that he ought to enjoin the further use of the company, the product, or that he ought to put limitations on how the product’s used, that doesn’t really get you where you need to go, and it costs you instead of the company. The only thing that corporate America understands is when they have to say to their stockholders, or to their partners in their businesses, “Hey, we have to write a big check now and it could put us out of business.” That’s all they respond to. Having done complex litigation for 25 years, I’ve never seen any other formula. You know, in a perfect world we could throw them in jail.

In Japan, for example, if you are following this latest story --- I think it has to do with an auto case where they didn’t tell the consumers the truth --- the consumer doesn’t really get to sue them the same way they do in the States, but the good news is that they throw them in jail. So that’s where I wish we were. I would gladly give up the multi-million-dollar recoveries from all the pharmaceutical cases, from everything we’ve done, for the last 25 years. If I knew we had a law that said, “Well, you guys can’t really sue them for money but we can have these creeps thrown in jail,” I’d gladly give up every dime. But, unfortunately, in the US, the only avenue we have to punish these companies is to take their money away. And so that’s the method of operation that we’ve used in pharmaceutical cases, in asbestos cases, and tobacco cases, and roll-over cases --- all of those consumer cases are only driven by the fact that greed is such a driving force with corporate America that they only react when you take some of their ill-gotten money away from them.

BB: So it’s not only the machine fraud. The Republican Party has been involved with all kinds of methods to disenfranchise voters, from intimidation, to destruction of Democratic voter registrations, and all kinds of other things that result in people not having their votes counted, or not being able to vote. Is there any possibility of a class action lawsuit down the line for the American people because they had their election stolen?

MP: I don’t really see that. I understand class action suits very, very well, and I don’t really see that as a possibility. It’s not likely that you’re going to have a case where you say the same offense that prevented person A from voting also prevented person B and person C, where you can show those three events are exactly the same. And unfortunately in a class action suit there are certain hoops that you have to jump through, like similarity in action, numerosity, all of these things that you really have to be specific about to get to the class action threshold. There may be some small cases, for example, where the Indians are disenfranchised, in a particular area --- yes, that has a ring to it. Or where the Hispanics in a certain state are disenfranchised --- that has some appeal to it. I don’t think that we are ready to get there yet with these. The trick to any particular litigation is to lay out the best strategy you can with what you have.

When I look at this, the best strategy that I’m able to come up with, and Bobby’s able to come up with, is a strategy that forces us into a room with the people who are making these decisions --- so I’m able to sit across the table from those people and ask them some tough questions. That: a.) forces them into committing perjury; and b.) exposes them as being the criminals that they are. I think that the best way to get there, is to do it by way of qui tam lawsuits and I may be wrong, but sometimes you have to stick with your strategy and that’s where we’re headed with it.

BB: Bobby was talking about how widespread this machine tampering is getting. It suggested to me that since these machines don’t tamper themselves, and since the Republicans don’t do things ad hoc, there may be a room filled with high level people who are sitting around analyzing data, plotting strategies, coming up with numbers and giving instructions, and if you could find out who those are wouldn’t you have a massive conspiracy case?

MP: Yes, you would. Tom, I keep hearing of people afraid to say that there’s any design, that everything that happened in Ohio must have just happened to be coincidental, disjointed events. I’m not afraid to say I think there is something that has more of a design to it.

For example, there is no question Feeney, down in Florida, met with people who were trying to put together a system to game voting. Here you have a Republican Congressman, this guy who represents Floridians, who represents Americans, and he’s sitting down trying to figure out how he can defraud Americans of their right to vote. Now, you’ve got to find that. Does it all fit together? It might.

[Ed Note: We have been reporting on Florida vote-rigging whistleblower Clint Curtis for the past year and a half. He is the programmer who has alleged Republican Congressman Tom Feeney asked him to create a software prototype to flip votes on electronic voting machines. A summary of our coverage is posted here. Curtis is now running for Congress in Florida's 24th district in hopes of unseating Feeney this fall. The Clint Curtis for Congress website is here.]

I think for something as critical as this is, you have to have a very methodical approach, just the same kind of an approach I would use if I were going to sue Merck for a defective product for 10,000 people. But that’s not new stuff. If you were to follow me around in a given month, you would see that I use the same methodology almost all the time, because it’s proven methodology, and that’s the way this has to be approached. It’s easy to get your attention pulled in so many directions that you forget that you still have a methodology that you need to follow. So all of these things are issues. You say to yourself, “My God, I know this is happening,” but you have to be patient. You have to say to yourself, “I gotta get there."

BB: That’s not to say in following your planned strategy you might not turn up a lot of things in the woodwork during the process.

MP: Yes, I think you will. I think we’ll turn up exactly what you’re talking about in the process. And then at some point, that’s something that will become useable. Right now with the way that politics are situated in Washington, if you were to turn up the fact that Dick Cheney, for an example – just for an example – if Dick Cheney and Karl Rove had sat down and said, here is the master strategy that’s even better than Lee Atwater’s Southern Strategy, and here’s how we are going to create this Republican machine that’s never going to go away --- if they were to have said that, and I actually had documents to show that they said it, that ordinarily would work.... But with the present environment, with the media that we are confronted with, and with the Justice Department, (not so much the Justice Department, but the people who are running the Justice Department, because we have very good U.S. Attorneys who are career people and they don’t like this anymore than we do) --- unfortunately, until we take back Congress and then take back the White House, we could have all the smoking guns you want, but the infrastructure to do anything with it is not there.

Every time I talk about this Democrats get mad, but it’s just absolutely the truth: Had Bill Clinton gone after and really sustained his investigation into the Iran-Contra affair for the full two years that he was there with a Democratic Congress, had he aggressively gone after the people he needed to, we wouldn’t have had Wolfowitz, we wouldn’t have had Rumsfeld, we wouldn’t have had Richard Perle, we wouldn’t have most of the Neocons that are running things right now. They would be in jail. But he didn’t do it. So the question is, if we can get Congress back one more time, and we can gain control of the infrastructure that puts thugs in jail, then we can have some change, but it has to begin in November, it has to happen.

This is it --- 2006 is the test.

But until we have either the House or the Senate, we don’t even have a bully pulpit. We have a press that is a completely dismal failure. And there’s a clear reason why they’re a dismal failure. Want to hear it?

BB: Of course!

MP: In the next 900 days, they have the last opportunity to enhance the 1996 Telecommunications Act. Michael Powell, if you will remember, took a shot at it last year, and he was very close, a lot closer than anybody thought. If they can get there, then what you are going to have is that Viacom, or NBC, or Rupert Murdoch is going come to your home town, and own your newspaper, own your radios, own your televisions, own everything, so that the one message that, say, Rupert Murdoch wants to deliver is delivered on virtually every venue available to you.

BB: That’s so dangerous.

MP: It’s awful. But the corporate media understands that this is it.

THIS IS IT!

Really, they’ll never again have this opportunity to have such a bumpkin President, such a lapdog bunch of Congressmen, and such a bottom-feeding kind of Administration. They’ll never have this again. They are afraid they will lose this opportunity by actually telling the stories, that people like you are telling. They are afraid to tell the story about the fact that 80,000 votes were shifted from John Kerry’s name to George Bush’s name in Ohio; or, that in the same state of Ohio, in one district, there were only 800 people who were registered, but 4000 votes showed up on the ledger.

BB: About qui tam: I understand that when you file, the government has the option of taking the case, instead of the citizen who files. Is that true?

MP: Correct.

BB: Is there any chance that the government might take the case and then go ahead and spike it?

MP: You mean sit on it?

BB: Yes.

MP: Yes, that’s exactly everybody’s fear, and that’s what we are trying to work around right now. The answer is, yes, that could very well happen, and we’re doing the best we can to not allow it to happen. Interestingly enough, within 60 days they have to make a decision, the decision if they are going to take the case, and they have a right to have one extension, they can get one continuance for that decision, so that’s one thing we have to be very conscious of.

BB: That can leave the disclosure until after the election then.

MP: Oh, absolutely. We’re trying to do what we can in that regard too.

BB: It’s too bad it couldn’t have been filed a little bit earlier.

MP: We had to have the facts. You have to have the relator, you have to have the whistleblowers, without those you can’t really do anything.

BB: I want to thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it.

MP: Well thank you, and I appreciate what you’re doing. I’m very optimistic about what you’re doing, because I think there’s a real rise in the citizen media. Citizen media is replacing mainstream media, and I think it’s doing it a lot more aggressively, and a lot more successfully than anybody dreamed. If you look at the numbers right now, 60% of Americans don’t trust the news. 60% say that they don’t even believe that the news can be adequately reported because government or corporations don’t allow it to happen. So what happens out there, is that the market always takes care of itself. There is some truth to that. And the market right now is moving rapidly towards the same kind of citizen media that you’re involved with. It’s one of those events that I talked about earlier, which coalesces with other things that are happening, so citizen media does get a story like this out, and it’s very effective. It’s amazing.

So when you run this story, somebody somewhere might read it and they might say, “Well I have information,” and they call someone or they call us, and you have a whole new dimension to the case that develops. Every day, somebody inside one of these voter corporations is mistreated, becomes disgruntled, finds their conscience, gets fearful that they are going to be arrested --- because all those things do happen --- and every time another of these key people decides to do the right thing, we have a better chance of getting to the whole story, so what you’re doing has a dramatic effect.

BB: Well I hope so, I just want to save this country.

MP: [Laughing] Well, I thank you for that. I will keep you posted as this story develops. It’s not something that happens right away. I think people may believe things are going to happen so rapidly that it’s going to be a huge flash, it’s more like a smoldering fire. And that’s not such a bad thing.

BB: No, because sometimes a smoldering fire will do a lot more damage in the long run than a flash. I’m hoping that this will actually change the consciousness in America so that when everybody goes to vote they look carefully at what’s going on around them. If we can at least get it out there that these voting machine companies are being sued, then maybe there will be more attention paid during the 2006 election, even if the case hasn’t been concluded.

MP: Joy, let me ask you something. Just put yourself in the position of an insider. The number ten guy with a huge voting machine company. All of a sudden, you understand that we’re already going fairly aggressively against one of your competitors. And you as number ten person in that company have firsthand knowledge that the company is committing fraud, and that the fraud is resulting in people being disenfranchised --- just totally being disenfranchised from the right to vote. If you are that number ten guy, and as you listen to the story unfold, there ought to be a certain pucker factor. That fear factor is what you should react to, rather than being somebody that is brought into a lawsuit or a criminal case. The thing to do is to come forward now, and let people know up front that, yes, you know about it, and, yes, you're willing to help correct it.

BB: And that’s part of the message we need to get out….

MP: That’s it!

BB: You were saying the other day it’s “like the civil rights issue” I think this is the civil rights issue.

MP: Oh yes, it is the civil rights issue; it’s the heart of the civil rights issue. It’s what people were murdered for, why they had to march in lines where they had dogs sic’d on them, and tear gas thrown at them, and bullets shot over their heads, or sometimes into their bodies. There’s no difference from what’s happening here, it’s just that people don’t understand or react to the racial aspect of it. Because it’s not simply a racial issue, it’s a class issue.

BB: Exactly, it’s the poor, as well as minority groups, as well as anyone who might commit the crime of voting while Democrat.

MP: If you think that this is happening in upper middle class neighborhoods, where white people drive 15 minutes to vote, you’re wrong. The problem was in the places where people had to take buses, and walk and take taxicabs to go vote, and then they would have to stand in line for four hours.

BB: And they might not even be in the “right” line in the same polling precinct. In Ohio there were frequently two polling precincts in one place, like a high school gym, and people would get in the wrong line, wait four hours, and then have to go to the end of the other line.

MP: Yes… and, then when they get there, their name isn’t even on the voting roll. So those are the nuances. We have to handle the direct issue right now. The direct issue is, even when they got there, the voting was probably gamed after they voted.

BB: Do you think that ChoicePoint is pulling people’s names off the rolls in 2006 as they did in 2000 in Florida?

MP: Oh, I just don’t know that yet. There’s no way to tell yet.

BB: This whole story is so intricate and so complicated, if they game the system again in 2006, it’s going to be a lot harder to tell because there are so many small races compared to the big major races for President….

MP: You hit a very good point. The point is: What about the developer who wants to have two of his friends put on the county commission so he can build a new high-rise? Nobody wants the high-rise, but, if he can get his friends put on there, my God, he might stand to make $15 million. Isn’t that just as much of a threat? The local issue is not quite as important as the national, but it’s pretty damned important.

BB: And, if the poll workers can take these machines home and have a sleepover with them, you can have one person put in a nasty chip, and change the whole outcome of the race!

MP: And without any evidence at all, so there would be no way to tell.

THANK YOU SO MUCH to Mike P. & to RFK Jr for doing this. I wish we had a dozen more like them.

But I find it unbelievable that citizens seem to have no legal recourse for the numerous instances & the numerous ways that Republicans worked to thwart the vote.

"...The Republican Party has been involved with all kinds of methods to disenfranchise voters...
Is there any possibility of a class action lawsuit down the line for the American people because they had their election stolen?...

MP:...I understand class action suits very, very well, and I don’t really see that as a possibility. It’s not likely that you’re going to have a case where you say the same offense that prevented person A from voting also prevented person B and person C, where you can show those three events are exactly the same. And unfortunately in a class action suit there are certain hoops that you have to jump through, like similarity in action, numerosity, all of these things that you really have to be specific about to get to the class action threshold..."

'Unbelievable' is the wrong word, of course. It's unfortunately EASILY believable, and it is sickening.

As DEEPLY grateful as I am for people like Mike & RFK, it is just galling that laws can be broken right & left in this country & there is SO LITTLE we can do to hold the criminals accountable.

People need to STOP saying we are a nation of laws. That is a sick, sad, obscene joke.

Because of that, there’s a benefit to the U.S. attorney saying, “Well, you know, we don’t know if we really want to do this.” And once they say that, those are the golden words that will allow us to go in and handle the case ourselves.

My worry is that the AG will take the case and subvert it "from within".

Thanks Joy and Tom for this great interview. Mike is extremely articulate and explains the nuances very well.

MP: Oh yes, it is the civil rights issue; it’s the heart of the civil rights issue. It’s what people were murdered for, why they had to march in lines where they had dogs sic’d on them, and tear gas thrown at them, and bullets shot over their heads, or sometimes into their bodies. There’s no difference from what’s happening here, it’s just that people don’t understand or react to the racial aspect of it. Because it’s not simply a racial issue, it’s a class issue.

How true! And as long as the greedy rich can continue to manipulate the elections, more and more middle class will fall into the neglected masses of the poor.

I'm afraid to believe in heroes again (I've been let down soooo many times), but I think there are some real heroes at work on this election fraud business --- including the group here at Bradblog. It is nice to have hope.

BTW:
For more from Mike, there is an audio clip on Randi's page from yesterday (scroll down to "show sound"):

You said "I'm afraid to believe in heroes again", so I offer this speech to you:

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it
...
I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

Mike is truly one of the nicest people I've met in a long time. Generous with his time, and very helpful for me, an amateur, at all this. This is my second interview ever, so he's been really wonderful on all this.

I can't give enough praise for him. He truly is an American Hero. Wonderfully, real heros are also really nice people.

Thank you Brad bloggers for this fine in depth interview. Special thanks to Councillors Papantonio and Kennedy Jr. for their efforts to save our Democracy. To bad the current Democratic leadership is mainly corporate sellout robots complicent to this mess and the Bushit administration. Good luck getting this case heard before the November election and saving the u.s. from the becoming an all out bullhorn of the FASCISTS in control of the mass media.

I further agree with your comments about "we the people" taking over the responsibility of spreading the news and the truth. Unfortunately this leaves at least half the country in the dark which is just the way the Bushit administration agenda likes it. In addition, let Brad bloggers know how we can further support your efforts to take back our country.

I can't stand on the sidelines any more and be content with just reading these postings and hope something good happens. At least I can help support the website, though living on disability means giving up something else. I can live without Showtime, but can I live without freedom?

It's sad that no one has figured out yet that the legal system is NOT going to solve this problem. The legal system already has so many laws (known and obscure) that have been passed or are currently being passed against anyone who attempts to litigate this issue. The legal system continues to be manipulated by those in power to do their bidding only; it is not a way for the common man/woman to get their day in court. The government of the people by the people for the people has to have a majority of people who are actually willing to remove their IPOD earbuds, set down their Budweiser and turn off American Idol long enough to VOTE FOR PEOPLE, demand a hand count and if necessary, take back the country and start a new government just as our Founding Fathers intended.

A very encouraging interview. If anyone has the ability and "know how" to litigate this sucessfully its Mike & Bobby. Their experience and prior sucesses in this type of litigation is invaluable. This case against paperless e-voting machines may be a big help to other countries such as Australia where the paperless machines are currently being introduced. So guy's you might not only be saving American democracy, but Western democracy. I live in New Zealand and my Dad always told me that if it hadn't been for America defeating the Japs I'd be speaking Japanese. The Jap's were on their way here and America stopped them. So thanks. This barely rates a mention here in NZ and I'm not happy about that.

It's a great interview. I really like the way Mike thinks.
Does anyone know if any civil rights groups are monitoring the situation in Indiana? Since we know that Blacks were disenfranchised in Florida and Ohio, and Native Americans and Hispanics were disenfranchised in New Mexico someone should be keeping an eye on what the Repugicans are doing there. Is there anyway to get hold of the lists of the people they are purging from the voter rolls?

I lived in Christchurch during one of the most Anti-American periods that had ever happened there (from 1984 through 1986). There was an anti-nuclear thing happening that turned into "go home, Americans". However, the WWII vets were horrified about the backlash-- for the same reason that you mentioned. There were men (with tears in their eyes) that apologized to me for the flack that I was getting.

New Zealand is a beautiful country full of very nice, hard working people. But, at the time, I really wanted to get out of there.

Now I see my country differently. I don't blame the rest of the world for resenting us. We unleashed the neocons and can't seem to get them back in control.

"There was an anti-nuclear thing happening that turned into "go home, Americans".

I'm so sorry you got caught up in all that. Judging people without knowing them or speaking with them is very ignorant and damaging.

The anti-nuclear part of the left wing are also guilty of misinformation. The fact is New Zealand is a small country without the resources to defend itself without the help of larger western countries. I'm sure they avoid acknowledging the fact that our continued existance as a nation was based on an American intervention.

The stand New Zealand took against nuclear weapons was a very dangerous one considering our small size. It is understandable but the treatment you recieved is not!

America did not wish to defend us unless we allowed nuclear ships to visit. I think in a way we were unfair not allowing them for the reason that I'm sure Americans do not like nuclear weapons but they are faced with the reality that by giving them up there are others in the world who will use them. Merely saying you don't like them and won't allow them in your waters is completely naive.

Really why should NZ have the privilege of American defence if they will not also put up with the unpalatible reality and danger of nuclear weapons.

This issue has always made it hard for me to vote left but there were other issues and I traded one against the other to get what was in my mind the lesser of the two evils.

It seems that witholding information or misinformation is a common thread with politics and getting what you most want.

Um, I'm really, really interested in your country, I'm a spinner and a weaver and you all have a great resource for wool but um....

/Topic police monitor hat on

Could we please take the discussion of NZ to the open thread? This is totally off topic to the interview above. I'd like it if people were not be dragged off topic from the qui tam suit and what Mike had to say. I don't think he mentioned New Zealand. Nope, checked the tape, he didn't say a thing about New Zealand. He probably loves it, but it's not IN the article.

I applaud the article. A word of caution. There are just as many democrats sitting on their laurals and NOT pushing this agenda. I would not vote for Kerry now if he paid me. He sold us down the river. The National Democratic party is too entangled with the corporate dominated power elite to risk challenging the facts that Kennedy and Papantonio are struggling to bring to light after the fact. If the voting system is to have integrity, WE the people must be vigilant using the techniques proposed by BlackBoxVoting. PARTICIPATE!! Demand Hand Recounts, demand paper ballots, better yet demand hand counted paper ballots.

While I can understand you wanting to keep the thread on topic, I, for one, am offended by the rude treatment. It was a short OT. I have been a devoted fan of Brad and his blog for a long time. OT's happen.

I apologize to Sally #21 for commenting on her country and causing her to be admonished.

To make sure that I do not do this again, I will stay out of your blogs, Joy and Tom. I'm sure I can get the info elsewhere.

Ram, I wasn't trying to be rude at all. I'm amazed that you thought I was. I'm sorry if I offended you I was trying to actually say I loved NZ, but that it should go to another thread. I really WAS trying to be polite. I even complimented her about New Zealand. I don't know what I said that was so offensive. Interesting how posts on a board can be SO misconstrued. Where was I rude, btw? I really like NZ, and I tried to show that. Seems my lot in life, lately, is to be misconstrued. Sigh.

The fact is, that the whole topic was being diverted to New Zealand and nuclear policies. It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with this post. From what I can see you started it. So maybe that's why you're defensive about this.

When it looked like it was becomming a debatable issue I tried to stop it from getting out of control on the thread.

Should we discuss nations getting nuclear arms? Of course.

Should New Zealand have them? Of COURSE NOT.

Should ANYONE have them? OF COURSE NOT.

End. There really isn't a reason anyone should have them, but let's take it to the OPEN THREAD. It has nothing to do with this topic. This is about voter election fraud, and a legal suit. It's not about nuclear proliferation. If you want to talk about that, please do, you may get a guest blog status with Brad.

I haven't insulted anyone, I just have asked that they stay on topic. How is asking people to not post on issues unrelated "rude". Ram, explain. I have insulted NO ONE. explain why it's rude to say that it's not fair.

I never said one negative thing about Sally. I never said anything negative about you Ram. I never said one thing negative about ANYONE. Nor did I insult ANYONE. I merely asked that you take this discussion elsewhere!

Are people's skin SO THIN that they can't even be asked to take a topic to the open thread without being offended???

Good grief! Instead I'm being admonished for asking people to stay on TOPIC!!!!!

What is wrong with you all? Show me where I insulted ANYONE, Ram! Sally, how did I insult you? Where did I insult you? SHOW ME.

I can't see anything there which was insulting. Honestly. I said nothing insulting to anyone. I complimented Sally on her country, because i DO spin and weave - do you think I was LYING or something? You want proof? I have a web page to PROVE it! I raise alpacas. And it IS a beautiful country, and then I asked that people stay on topic...and take talk of nuclear proliferation to the OPEN THREAD! How else do I ask people to stay on topic? How else do I ask them to take topics like this to the open thread? By asking them NOT to stay on topic? By encouraging them to keep talking about unrelated issues on my blog?? How politely must I say, "PLEASE move this topic elsewhere"???? I can get rude. I can get really rude. But I have NOT. In the LEAST. Explain, Ram and Sally, how I said anything rude. Show me what was rude in my request.

How thin IS your skin?

Now this topic is being hijacked by people going off topic about how rude someone is for asking people POLITELY to NOT go so off topic. And not explaining why they aren't being polite about it.

Cripes, you can't win. You can't even ask people nicely to stop hijacking a topic.

You said:"People need to STOP saying we are a nation of laws. That is a sick, sad, obscene joke."

You're right. Mike says he has to be careful not to go too fast or lose the whole case.

Sort of like competing in the Olympics I guess. You work for months and years to get your one chance.

On the other hand, the Republicans can rampage like a bull in a china shop through the laws and always come out a winner! I'll never stop saying, not one thing they've accomplished since Bush stole the election in 2000 has been legitimate!

First of all, thank you for the fine interview! It's nice when the interviewer is as perceptive and thoughtful as the interviewee.

That said, please be a little more tolerant of your fellow Bradvillians. I don't think every thread must deal exclusively with a single topic. I do think people should be allowed to meander a bit from time to time without being called out and scolded, and I would go so far as to say that IMHO Ram and Sally were not all that far afield.

In any case, your ardor and lack of diplomacy seem to have thoroughly hijacked the thread. It's a pity. Just sayin'...

"Joy" it would have been fine with me if thats all you had said. "Your off topic, please move to the OT. I may have overeacted. You are after all a spinner and a weaver. A difference in approach. The interview was good. Please come back Ram.

Joy and Tom Williams,
I thanked Mike & RFK Jr but neglected to thank YOU GUYS for this interview, so a big THANK YOU to you!

Joy,
As Czaragorn said, sometimes people do stray off-topic here (I know I'm guilty). A gentle reminder is not a bad thing. But if someone reacts to that reminder try not to take it personally. We can all have a thin skin at times (although Brad & WP seem remarkably & admirably impervious!) but we're all brothers in the good fight here, so everybody take a breath & shake hands. Group hug?

#8 Laura,
Thanks! I didn't know Dan had put my banner up on his site. Thanks for telling me. I just bought an ITMFA tee shirt. (can't wear my Bradblog shirt ALL the time!)

Joan, I second a group hug! I think the interview made me acutely aware of my own thin skin. As commendable as the motives are, I get a sickening feeling (incidental editorial note: my giant Webster's tells me the past tense of sic is sicked, not sic'd) that Torture Boy will figure out how to sit on these cases and render them moot, and, like it or not, we're gonna have to take to the streets and experience first-hand all the new high-tech crowd control equipment we keep hearing about. I wish I didn't live in Prague, or that I lived in Prague, Texas, closer to Camp Casey - it's oddly reminiscent of Brad's aborted vacation last year, n'est pas? Oh well, give me librium or give me meth, whatever...

I'm sorry that my comments caused such a ruckus. I am especially sorry because it sounds as though you may be tired and I added to your burden.

Just being a "watcher" in this election fraud business can be draining. I can imagine that the "movers and shakers" such as yourselves can get worn thin. I know that I would not have the fortitude to produce the blogs that you do. Your interviews are great!

I suppose that I have a difficult time living in a vacuum on any issue. They all seem so inter-related.

For instance, when the kiwis were giving me a hard time about being American, there was a huge election. I remember thinking how small-minded the voters appeared. They didn't seem to look at any issue other than "we don't want nuclear stuff here because we might get contaminated". Their fears were driving them to ignore other issues.

Now, back in the states, the fears of "terrorism" are blinding my fellow countrymen to the really vital issue. While the citizenry is focused on that, the neocons are using 'slight of hand' to hijack our votes --- and the sheeple keep buying it. As long as the "winner" in the election will "keep us safe", it doesn't seem to matter how he/she got there.

And this is the most heinous of all crimes: when our ability to vote is usurped, we are vulnerable to terrors far worse than what we experienced on 9/11.

That is why I am so thankful for the heroes, like you, Joy and Tom, that continue to trudge through the muddy trenches to protect us.

And, Sally, I'm glad that you're still here and we can move on. Living in your country gave me a good hard look at my own country --- which is why I'm paying attention a little more fervently to the voting issue.

Wonderful interview! My fervent thanks to all, both interviewers and interviewee, for some breaths of fresh air during this sweltering, deadly summer. Sorry I'm so slow in commenting here, but yesterday it was too hot and humid to THINK, let alone read and type...

Ram, well I don't know if I would categorize us as heros, but I certainly am interviewing heros! And you are right about the most heinous of crimes being the usurpation of our votes, because that's crimes against Democracy, and without it, we can't have control of our government which leads to all kinds of abuses. The way this government is going, I'm terrified that we are just at the edge of Fascism, and we definitely on our way to a Banana Republic. This is why turnout in November is CRITICAL. We must get everyone out to vote. Large numbers almost always end up being largely Democratic. The Republicans only go out on wedge issues, but the war is definitely not a wedge issue. And vote early if you can, go to your local elections office and insist on a paper ballot that you can use right there. Greg Palast suggests that folks get together in groups of 5 and march down to your local elections office and vote there. Here in California, you can vote up to 29 days before the official date of November 6th.

Joan, I was pleasantly surprised to see your banner on ITMFA website. I think the grouphug is a great idea. We are all on edge about so many terrible things going on in our world. It is all so frustrating. We must prevail in all these things, we all see the truth and know we are hanging by a thread. We know we just have to persevere. Thank You All for being here every day. It makes it so much easier to know I am not alone and we are all fighting the good fight together. I draw alot of strength from all your words. We need to keep keeping on!

Possible Simple Plan of Action for this coming "election":
1) Try to get the day off from work
2) "Vote" as early as possible
3) After "voting," immediately go back to your car and get a placard, poster, sign or somesuch that protests against insecure elections (like the one you just "voted" in). Examples: "Live Free or Diebold" and "Paper Ballots, Hand Counted"
4) Stay as long as you can, beyond the "campaigning physical limit line," talking to people and handing out literature on the election theft racket.
5) Have compatriots there with you to videotape any harrassment from ReThugs or misguided police.
6) Go home and celebrate that you are an active patriotic American trying to save your country from Fascism and ultimate destruction.