As a student of Japanese history, I feel I must clear up a common misconception about Japan. That is, it was an "ancient" Asian civilization.

Japan did not form statehood until 300 AD compared to China in 1700 BC or India in 1600 BC. The Japanese borrowed the Chinese writing system 1700 years after it was invented. The Jomon-Yayoi (300 BC-300 AD) period of Japan cannot be considered ancient because there was no organized, central government, writing or basic technologies. Japan, was a late-bloomer by far.

The inclusion of Japan as an "ancient Asian" society was actually a concoction made during Kokugawa through WW2 period. During the meiji reform in 19th century Japan, there was a revolt against "Chinese learning." Rather than studying Japanese history with respect to Chinese history (recognizing Japan as a cultural parasite of China), Japanese historians embarked on the "kokugawa" period where Japan would not only disaffliate herself as China's pet country, but reteach her people that she was ancient civilization on her own all together.

Considering the politcal needs at the time, this re-education was crucial towards expediting Japan's later expansion in Asian. By placing herself, as equals with China, then later on superior to China, Japan could justify invading thd "old sensei."

This is where post-war Japanese education gets muddy. While most textbooks refute Japan's claim as an ancient Asian society, other more nationalistic publishers still adhere to that claim and refer to China as only a minor influence in the written language, arts and clothing of Japan.

This simple example shows how re-education can be such a powerful tool for shaping the national agenda. By re-writing the history of Japan, the Kokugawa historians created a radical, ultra-nationalist society.

I dont mean to argue with your points about Japans "historical" period...BUT there is more to the story....True ancient Japan didnt have a stratified Government...BUT WHO DID AT 20,000BC?

Japan...is one of the oldest continuouse Civilizations in the world!

The notion that the Japanes...

a) came from China
b) Were dependent on China for their civilization
c) Were "prmitive"...compared to China..or Rome...

IS ALL VERY WRONG!

I know that I dont have the space required to give you the Full history of these remarkable people....However, I would like to clear a few things up for you guys...and gals.

First of all the Island of Japan was first inhabited by the Jomon. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Jomon sailors were living on the Islands at very ancient dates...(~25,000(+) BC).
These bearded sailors are well known to scientist for being one of the worlds first civilized people. Indeed they have the OLDEST pottery in the world(~20,000BC)..One of the oldest languages (Ainu)...one of the first to use agriculture (maybe even 18,000-20,000 years ago!!!)..one of the first known developmetns of textiles...(~25,000BC)...ETC...ETC....!!!
(remember traditionally agriculture began in China at about 6000-8000 BC !!!)...and in the mideast at about (7000-9000BC)

The Jomon of later ages....became know as the Ainu; and these bearded sailors are legendary among anthropologists for their EARLY and WIDESPREAD travel throughout pacific basin... Genetically tehy are known as the VAnguard of the ALL Pacific human populations!..So while most othere homo-sapiens were living a subsitsence existence on land....(China..etc. )..The incredible Ainu were visiting the coasts of the NEW WORLD!!! (After exstensive skeletal testing...IT NOW APPEARS THAT KENWICKMAN WAS A JOMON/AINU SAILOR!)....were developing one of the FIRST KNOWN...complex...Civilizations!

By 12,000-18,000 BC...The Ainu/Jomon had developed the sciences of Astronomy (how else could they travel the oceans of the world?)...Agriculture...Archtecture (some of the first stone structures in the world)...a complex religion (that is still be used today..SHINTO comes from the old Ainu/Jomon)....ETC...ETC...!!

Anyway...I couild go on and on BUT I dont want to bore the ladies!

Kukulkon

Oh....and the latest news is that we may have to rethink the origins of SILK....long thought to have been an invention of China..until late last year when scientists found microscopic threads of raw silk...from a Jomon/Aim textile....!!!

OH...and as for the " and theGreek.. Roman empire are neck-to-neck with India and China in terms of age"...What in the hell are you talking about.....THE AVERAGE LIFE SPAN OF ALL THE GREEK DEMOCRATIC CITY STATES WAS ABOUT 350 YEARS...THATS IT!!
CHINA HAS AT LEAST 6000 YEARS OF CONTINOUSE CIVILIZATION....AND THE HINDUS ARE EVEN OLDER....my friends!
(I know you guys all went to PUBLIC SCHOOLS...RIGHT?)

My understanding is that Japan launched its Asian offensive of the 1930 because of a book called the "Tanaka Memorial".

This book was said to argue that if Japan did not expand, that they would eventually die due to a lack of natural resources and relative weakness to other Asian nations. It also upheld the belief in a racial superiority of the Japanese over all others.

It has also been said that this book is a hoax, written by the Russians.

I remember you saying that you're a student of Japanese history. Know anything about this?

Originally posted by Kukulkon I dont mean to argue with your points about Japans "historical" period...BUT there is more to the story....True ancient Japan didnt have a stratified Government...BUT WHO DID AT 20,000BC?

Japan...is one of the oldest continuouse Civilizations in the world!

The notion that the Japanes...

a) came from China
b) Were dependent on China for their civilization
c) Were "prmitive"...compared to China..or Rome...

IS ALL VERY WRONG!

I know that I dont have the space required to give you the Full history of these remarkable people....However, I would like to clear a few things up for you guys...and gals.

First of all the Island of Japan was first inhabited by the Jomon. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Jomon sailors were living on the Islands at very ancient dates...(~25,000(+) BC).
These bearded sailors are well known to scientist for being one of the worlds first civilized people. Indeed they have the OLDEST pottery in the world(~20,000BC)..One of the oldest languages (Ainu)...one of the first to use agriculture (maybe even 18,000-20,000 years ago!!!)..one of the first known developmetns of textiles...(~25,000BC)...ETC...ETC....!!!
(remember traditionally agriculture began in China at about 6000-8000 BC !!!)...and in the mideast at about (7000-9000BC)

The Jomon of later ages....became know as the Ainu; and these bearded sailors are legendary among anthropologists for their EARLY and WIDESPREAD travel throughout pacific basin... Genetically tehy are known as the VAnguard of the ALL Pacific human populations!..So while most othere homo-sapiens were living a subsitsence existence on land....(China..etc. )..The incredible Ainu were visiting the coasts of the NEW WORLD!!! (After exstensive skeletal testing...IT NOW APPEARS THAT KENWICKMAN WAS A JOMON/AINU SAILOR!)....were developing one of the FIRST KNOWN...complex...Civilizations!

By 12,000-18,000 BC...The Ainu/Jomon had developed the sciences of Astronomy (how else could they travel the oceans of the world?)...Agriculture...Archtecture (some of the first stone structures in the world)...a complex religion (that is still be used today..SHINTO comes from the old Ainu/Jomon)....ETC...ETC...!!

Anyway...I couild go on and on BUT I dont want to bore the ladies!

Kukulkon

Oh....and the latest news is that we may have to rethink the origins of SILK....long thought to have been an invention of China..until late last year when scientists found microscopic threads of raw silk...from a Jomon/Aim textile....!!!

OH...and as for the " and theGreek.. Roman empire are neck-to-neck with India and China in terms of age"...What in the hell are you talking about.....THE AVERAGE LIFE SPAN OF ALL THE GREEK DEMOCRATIC CITY STATES WAS ABOUT 350 YEARS...THATS IT!!
CHINA HAS AT LEAST 6000 YEARS OF CONTINOUSE CIVILIZATION....AND THE HINDUS ARE EVEN OLDER....my friends!
(I know you guys all went to PUBLIC SCHOOLS...RIGHT?)

First of all, you have to redefine the meaning of civilization to validate your arguments. Until contact with China, the early Japanese did not have a centralized government, written language, basic agricultural technologies, etc. What kind of a civilization is that?

Also your claims on the Ainu culture are completely out of alignment with Japanese history. The Ainu are only found in the Northern islands of Hokkaido. They are culturally and ethnically different from the standard (Yayoi) Japanese people. Their written language cannot be older than Chinese considering writing was introduced into Japan 300 AD. As for oral language, who knows. We can't carbon date it.

As for Chinese influence of Japan.
Can you explain to me why half of Japanese characters (Kanji) are Chinese? Or why Japanese Kominos are modeled after Han-dynasty women's dresses? Or the similarity between Chinese and Japanese arts, architecture and cultural customs? Or why so many early Japanese writings revolved around Confucian, Bhuddism and Taoism? Shintoism, a young religion, was actually created because the Japanese felt that they needed a national religion rather than borrowing from the Asian continent.

There is nothing wrong with not having a Phd in Japanese history, but there is in pretending to have one.

If you are truly here to learn rather than argue, I recommend the following book: "The Japanese Experience" by W.G. Beasley (University of London professor.)

Keener, You are the one who has to validate your arguments by relying on the "list" definition of civilization. The Incas built huge walls of carefully fitted stones cut in various geometric shapes without the aid of the wheel, and maintained vast storehouses to feed their people without the aid of writing, yet You would apparently discount them as a civilization. The Jomon had a very high standard of living, and in 5000 BC they actually had a higher standard of living than China. This culture, since You dont want to acknowledge it as a civilization was extremely similar to the culture that existed in SE Europe since 7000 BC, so similar that it must have been brought by sea, and in fact the Japanese have an Austronesian element in their nation as well as white elements. I have attended a festival in a town called Tsushima where the local deity's palanquin was not carried on the shoulders of participants, as is usual, but along a specially built canal in a double hulled boat very much like the Polynesian canoes. Incidentally, the Polynesians developed (or maybe were taught) very advanced forms of navigation that enabled them to settle the Pacific, but had little need of some other requirements You cite for a civilization.

Interesting note here about the possible link between Taiwan and Polynesia . . . . . it has been claimed that the polynesians are the descendants of the (pre-Chinese) Taiwanese aborigines. Of course this does not directly bear on Japan, but it show how thing may have been 6000 years ago in that part of the world.

First of all... I agree with you, that people have different critera for "Civilization". The specific things that I would consider may well differ from most of you? (I dont know?)

To answer some of your questions:

"Also your claims on the Ainu culture are completely out of alignment with Japanese history. The Ainu are only found in the Northern islands of Hokkaido. They are culturally and ethnically different from the standard (Yayoi) Japanese people."

I have given you the meat of the Gentics testing of the modern Japanese...As you can SEE....YOur incorrect. The Ainu/Jomon were the original "Japanese", and their genes are still very much alive in the present Population of this ancient land. The Yayoi...came to Japan much later....they were rice farmers who "mixed" with the seafaring Ainu..Later...When the Ainu race had been mixed to a high degree, the "pure" Ainu became a minority in their own nation...That why the Ainu are only found in the remote north today! (and also why not many people know the thruth about them!)
Why do you think the Japanese have BEARDS?..THEIR PART AINU!
(hear is one gentic test...there have been many)

HLA-CLASS I AND -CLASS II ALLELES IN NATIVE JAPANESE, AINU, LIVING IN NORTHERN JAPAN

The Ainu people are considered to be the descendants of pre-agricultural native populations of northern Japan, while the majority of the population of contemporary Japan (Wajin) is descended mainly from postneolithic migrants. Polymorphisms of the HLA-B, -DRB1, -DRB3, and -DQB1 alleles were investigated in DNA samples of 50 Ainu living in Hidaka district, Hokkaido. Unique features of the Ainu were high incidences of HLA-B*1501 (29%), B*5101(19%), B*390l (16%), DRB1*1401(20%), DRB1*1406 (17%), and a novel allele DRB1*1106 (5%). On the other hand, several common alleles in Wajin (B*4403, B*5201, DRB1*1502, DRB1*1302, DRB1*0803) were found at relatively low frequencies (0-1%). The allele data and principal component analysis of various populations indicate that the Ainu are a unique “Mongoloid” population and genetically related to both east Asian populations and Native Americans. These observations may support the hypothesis that the Ainu people are the descendants of some Upper Paleolithic populations of northeast Asia from which Native Americans are also descended

NExt you ansked me:
["Their written language cannot be older than Chinese considering writing was introduced into Japan 300 AD. As for oral language, who knows. We can't carbon date it"]

Really?(Maybe you should check all that out again.)
"Linguists are not sure about the exact origins of the Japanese language. It is believed to be linked to the Altaic language family (Turkish, Mongolian, ...) but shows also similarities to Austronesian languages like Polynesian. "

So...The Modern Japanese are genetically, at mix of Ainu(~10-30%)...any later Yayoi Rice farmers from Korea. It seems that much of what we today consider typically Japanese....can be traced back to the ancient Jomon/Ainu (Who are genetically the same folks)....Like there language wich still contain much of the ancient Ainu lanuage..... They lived at high population density, built stone buildings, conducted trade..They created the worlds oldest known Pottery.

The Jomon/Ainu constructed seasworthy vessels and sailed the pacific long before any othere known people...IN fact Kenwick man is most likely a Jomon Sailor (OR decendent)...(thats like some tribe heading off for MArs today...no?)

So To me all of these achievements are the sign of a "Civilization" and since much of modern Japan is based...(literally) on these ancients gene I give credit where credits due!

Kukulkon

I know..if it were a "REAL civilization"... it would have to have large stone complexes; and Big religiouse centers (where they invented much of modern Shinto)......and still... you would only belive it...... if I could show you..... that it was without dought a true ICEAGE CIVILIZATION!.....Right?