[Suzuki-roshi sneezes directly into the mike as it is being set
up. He and students laugh.] I want to know the feedback. [Laughs,
laughter.] Oh my. [Laughs.]

After all, it's better to follow one character after another
like this. [Points to the blackboard where the characters of the
text are written.[1]]
This part is not so difficult. Reigen-rei is-rei is
"something wonderful," you know, "something beyond our description,
beyond our words" is rei. Gen is "source-source of
the teaching." Reigen-"source of the teaching."

The source of the teaching of Buddha, you know-Buddha-what
Buddha talked about is the source of the teaching which is beyond
our words in term of right or wrong. And this is important, you
know. Rei-gen. Whatever we can think about is not source,
you know. It is already something comes-come out from the source.
The source is something unknown. Only buddha knows. Or only when
you practice zazen you have it. Or even though you don't practice
it, or whether you realize it or not, you know, something which
exist before our realization is source. The source is not like
something, you know, to, you know, to put on lettuce [laughs,
laughter]-not that kind of thing, you know. It is something which
you cannot taste, you know, in term of tasty or not tasty. That is
real source.

And this source can be- Here it says ri. Ri is
"truth," we say. But when we-"truth," you know, when we say
"truth," you know, in our language, the truth is something which
you can see, you can figure out. But that-in Buddhism that is not
truth. Truth is something which is beyond our description, which is
beyond our thinking, is the truth. Ri. And reigen is,
you know, more figuratively speaking, ri can be "the
wonderful," you know, "source," wonderful which is beyond our
language-description. And this is source-source of all being.

By the way, when we say "being," you know, "being" include our
thought too. You see? The being-when we say "being," being can be
many things which we can see is being, but which we can think is
also being [laughs], you know. So usually, [when] you say "truth,"
the truth means something underlying theory or something is truth,
you know. That the sun rise from east and set in west is truth, or
that the earth is turning, you know, by itself in some certain
direction, is the truth. But in Buddhism that is not truth. That is
being also--being which is in our big mind, you know. So in our m-
[partial word]- Whatever it is, what is in our mind in term of big
or small, right or wrong, that is "being." So if you think about
something in term of right or wrong, or you may say "This is
eternal truth" [laughs], you know, but that is-for us that is
"being" too, because that is some eternal truth is something which
is in your mind.

So we do not, you know, make much distinction between things
which exist outside of ourselves or which exist within ourselves.
You say "outside of ourself" [laughs], you know, but it is not
true, you know. "Outside of yourself." You feel in that way, you
know, but actually, when you say "There is river," river is already
within your mind, you know. So, you know, hasty people may say
"River is there," but if you think more about it you will find out
the river is something which is in your mind is river. So it is a
kind of thought we have in our mind.

And if you say "There is river and here is my mind," that is
dualistic, you know, understanding. That is hasty, primitive,
shallow understanding of things. That is so-called-it
u.[2]U, you know. [Laughs.] U. U is, you know-maybe
better to remember this words, you know: u or mu.
Mu[3]-opposite
of mu is u. U-uken[4] is, you know, pre-Buddhistic, you
know, understanding of things. When you become Buddhist you have no
more idea or [of] u or mu.

Myoni kokettari: myo is, you know,"clear"; koketsu
means-ko is "white," and ketsu is "stainless." It
means that-"stainless" means no stain of thought or, you know,
thought or words. If you describe it, that is the stain, you
know-to put limitation to the truth, you know. So it means you
stain the truth. You put some mark on the, you know, truth. So if
it is pure, white, and stainless, that is clear. And that is, you
know, how [what] the "true source" means, you know. So true source
is pure, white, and stainless"-ketsu
is-seiketsu[5]
means, you know-seiketsu, you know-you should keep your room
seiketsu. Seiketsu means "well cleaned up" is
seiketsu.

Ko is "white." This [pointing to ko] is "white."
And this [pointing to -tari?] is "sound." Give [poetic or
spoken?] sound to the character-"the white"-"the pure white"-and
"stainless and clear." But this two characters [kokettari?]
is very interesting, you know. I will explain later.

Because he said reigen-"source," you know-he-it is to say
"branch stream" is some rhetorical way of putting words, you know.
When- Because here [pointing to reigen] is source, here
[pointing to shiha] is stream, you know. To make this-those
two line of the poem beautiful, he says "shiha." "The branch
stream is"-an is also. It means "dark." "Dark." This
[pointing to myo] is clear. This [pointing to an] is
dark. And ruchu is "flow" or "pour in," you know. "Flow
over"-not "over"-"flow in." Ru-chu. This [pointing to
ru] is "flow." This [pointing to chu] is "pour."

So the source is, you know, pure and stainless, but this
[pointing to reigen] is more noumenal word. This [pointing
to shiha] is more phenomenal words. If I say, you know. But
phenomenal or noumenal is not right [laughs], but tentatively I
have to say so. But- So that is why I said it is better to remember
this word-technical term, ri [noumenal]. And another
important technical term is ri-ji [corrects ri to
ji, phenomenal][writing on blackboard]. Those two technical
terms is a term which you [should] remember.

Ji is, you know, something which you can see, which you
can hear, or which you can smell or taste, you know, and it include
object of thinking, or ideas-is ji. Whatever it is, you
know, which can be introduced into your consciousness is
ri-ji [corrects ri to ji ]. And this is
something which is beyond our conscious world is ri.

So here, you know, this five characters [Reigen myoni
kottari] means ri, which is beyond words, something
which is stainless. In Prajñaparamita Sutra, [it
says] "no taste, no," you know, "no eyes, no," you know, "ears, no
nose," you know. That is actually this one [the character
ri].

And, Shiha anni ruchusu. Shiha[anni
ruchusu] is "branch stream naturally or," you know, "by itself
flow or pour in everywhere like water." Now water, even though you
don't think there is no water, there is water, you know. Water will
be inside of our physical body, or even in plants there is water.
So even though we don't know, you know, there is water all over. So
the pure source is all over, you know. So each being is itself, you
know, pure source. And pure source is nothing but each being. If
you want to know what is pure source, each being is the pure
source. If you want to know what is each being, you know, pure
source is each being. So even though- If, you know- There is no two
things. There is no difference between ri and ji-pure
source and its stream. Stream itself is pure source, and pure
source is stream.

[Line 5] Reigen myoni kokettari.

[Line 6] Shiha anni ruchusu.

Even though you don't know, you know, there is reigen,
the pure source. A pure source is flowing all over. Stainless. Pure
source is all over. Even though you don't know-that is "dark"
[an]. And this "don't know" is very important, and this
"clearness" [myoni?] is also important, but I have to
explain it later.

And here-so to stick to various idea, various being, or to stick
to some idea of something, you know, even though [it is] Buddha's
teaching, you know. And if you think you understood it, you know,
[saying] "Buddha's teaching is something like this," you know, then
it mean you stick to ji. To stick to shu is
to-shusuru is-

[Line 7] Ji wo shusuru mo moto kore mayoi

-you say. Ji is "being." This [shu] means "to
stick to." To stick to being or thought is originally or of course
[moto], is delusion. Ji wo shusuru mo- Ji wo shusuru mo
moto kore mayoi. This [mayoi] is "delusion." And
kore is "itself is delusion"-"nothing but delusion," you
know, "itself is delusion." Or "nothing but delusion."
Moto-"of course," you know-"nothing but delusion." To stick
to things is delusion, you know. To stick to some idea is
delusion.

[Line 8] Ri ni kano mo mata satori ni ara zu.

This [satori] is "enlightenment," and this [ara
zu] is "no, not enlightenment." Mo mata is "also." This
[character] is ri, the- This is ri. It's better not
to say [laughs] anything, you know. It's better not to say in
English, you know [laughs, laughter]. Ri ni [laughs]- If you
translate- If I translate it [into] English it can be this
[pointing to ji[6]], you know [laughs] already. So-

If you, you know, think-recognize, you know. This [pointing to
kano] is "recognize," you know, [as in]
kai-San-do-kai. Kai. The point- If you, you
know, make some point about ri [it] is not enlightenment,
you know. Enlightenment is not something you can experience,
actually. Enlightenment is beyond our experience. At the same time,
you know, if you think enlightenment is beyond our experience,
something which you cannot experience-"That is enlightenment." So
if someone says, "I attained enlightenment," he is wrong.

If you say so [laughs], it means that you stick to [laughs] the
explanation of enlightenment, you know. That is, you know, if you
say so you are-you stick to words. That is delusion if you say
so.

So you cannot say there is no enlightenment or there is
enlightenment. Enlightenment is not something, you know, which you
can say "there is" or "there isn't." And at the same time,
enlightenment is something, you know, which you can experience is
enlightenment too. If you understand really those two
sentences-

At Sekito's time, there were big dispute about, you know, sudden
enlightenment and gradual practice or enlightenment. Kataku Jinne
denounced the Jinshu's[7] way very badly. And Jinshu's way is gradual attainment,
while Sixth Patriarch's way is sudden enlightenment. So in the
Sutra of Sixth Patriarch, "just to sit" is not true
practice. That kind of sentence is, you know, you can see
everywhere [in the Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch] denouncing
the, you know, Jinshu's way. But maybe that is not Sixth
Patriarch's idea [laughs]-that was not Sixth Patriarch idea.

There is not much difference between Jinshu and the Sixth
Patriarch's way. Later, maybe fifty years later, there was this
kind of words was added by Kataku Jinne. Right after Kataku Jinne
passed away, maybe his disciple [added them]. Kataku Jinne was very
good. On the other hand, he was very active and he was very
critical with Jinshu's zazen. But he is not so, you know, hasty so
he wouldn't say something like that.

But right after the Kataku Jinne, which was great, you know, Zen
master, disciple of Sixth Patriarch, you know, this kind of , you
know, things was added on the Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch,
which was written right after the Sixth Patriarch's death. So [in]
seven fourteen [714 C.E.] it was compiled.

And, you know, compiling and maybe many of his disciple had it,
you know-the Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch. But Kataku
Jinne's disciple made some, you know, correction or [laughs]
changed some part, or added something, you know, like, you know,
poem: "There is no bodhi tree ...." [laughs] or "There is no mirror
...," you know. "There is mirror, or there is no stand for the
mirror. There is nothing," you know. "How is it possible to wipe
the mirror?" That kind of poem, you know. Many people criticize
that kind-that poem because it is not so good, you know [laughs,
laughter]. So many people thinks this cannot be the Sixth
Patriarch's poem, you know. This kind of, you know, useless, you
know, things was added.

And it was the, you know, a kind of pride or honor to own the
Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch. So, "Do you have this book,"
you know? "Yes I have." But the books they have is not same. There
are many books-many kinds of the-entitled "The Sutra of the
Sixth Patriarch." Many kinds. So the oldest one is, you know,
do not include that kind of, you know, denouncing [laughs] critical
words to the-for the Jinshu school.

So to, you know- The purpose of Sandokai is to make it
clear this kind of wrong understanding of which is right, or
which-Jinshu, who stick-who looks like stick to rituals and
understanding or scholarly work. All the scholarly works belongs to
ji, you know. Scholarly study belongs to ji. The
ri is something, you know, which you can experience by
practice is ri. You see, this is- Maybe you, you think
scholarly work is ri [laughs]-you may think so-but for us it
is not so. Scholarly work is ji. To stick to scholarly work
is to stick to things. Things include our scholarly study.

To follow, or to realize, or to have complete understanding of
ri-to accept ri is our practice. But even though you
practice zazen and you think that is ri-attainment of
ri, or realization of ri, but that is not always so
[laughs]-that is, you know, according to the Sekito it is so. And
this is the, you know, the intention of writing this poem. So this
is, you know, this is the backbone of the whole Sandokai. So
if you understand this much, you understood-you already understood
Sandokai-whole Sandokai.

So this is very important part. The first part was
introduction:

[Line 1] Chikudo daisen no shin,

[Line 2] tozai mitsuni aifusu.

[Line 3] Ninkon ni ridon ari,

[Line 4] do ni namboku no so nashi.

This is introduction, you know. And then this is the first, or
this is the main point of whole sutra. So, maybe, tentatively, I
translate it like this:

[Line 1] The true mind of the great sage of India

[Line 2] handed down closely from west to east.

Tozai mitsuni aifusu. Chikudo daisen no shin is already
understood, you know. Chikudo- Chikudo is "India."
Daisen is "great sage." Sen means "hermit," you know.
At that time-at Sekito's time, there were many Taoist and there
were many hermits who had some supernatural power, who were proud
of various supernatural power and seeking for some medicine to, you
know, to live long-to keep long life, you know, maybe, you know,
finding out some medicine is also Taoist way.

But they-as I explained, they do not-they were not so much
interested in practice-Buddhist practice-and they don't, you know,
find out-they couldn't understand why we must practice zazen-why
practice is so necessary. That was also true with Dogen-zenji
[laughs]: "If," you know, "we have-all of us have buddha nature,
why is it necessary to practice?" He, you know, suffered a lot
about this point. He- Not only he couldn't understand it intellect-
[partial word]-solve this problem, you know, by study-intellectual
study-but also he couldn't accept this point.

This is very important, you know-why we should- When you really
know yourself, you know, you will realize how important it is to
practice zazen. Before you know what you are doing, actually, you
know, you don't know why we practice zazen. You know, you think you
are quite free-whatever you do, that is your choice [laughs], you
say, but actually you are creating karma for yourself and for
others [laughing]. And still you don't know what you are doing, so
you don't think there is no need to practice zazen. But, you
know-

So, we have to, you know, to pay our debt by [laughs] ourselves.
No one can pay for your debt, you know. That is why it is necessary
to practice, you know. To fulfill our responsibility, we practice
zazen. And we have to. If we don't, you know, you will-you don't
feel so good, first of all [laughs], and, you know, you will
create, you know, some karma for others too. And without knowing,
you say "Why is it necessary to practice Zen?" Moreover, when you
say, you know, "We have buddha nature," you think buddha nature is
something, you know, something, something like diamond which is in
your sleeve, you know. The true buddha nature is not something like
this [pointing to the character for ji ][8]. It is ri-it is not
ji. Even diamond, it is ji, not ri.
[Sentence completed. Tape changed.] [So we are always
involved in this][9]
world only without knowing ri.

The other day, when I explained about human potentiality- And I
think I will ex- [partial word]- This is very im- [partial word]-
For the- In this sutra, this point is not so important. The more
important thing is- In this sutra it says:

[Line 3] Ninkon ni ridon ari.

This is just, you know, rhetorical, because-just because [of]
rhetorical need, he put [in] this sentence. But we must ha-
[partial word]- It is interesting to, you know, to understand what
is human potentiality in Buddhism.

Nin is "human." Kon is "root." And it
[ninkon] means "potentiality-human potentiality."
Ridon[rikon?] is someone who has advantage, or [and
someone] who has some disadvantage is don. And one is ri
[rikon], the [other] one is don [donkon].

And rikon and donkon is, you know- There is, you
know- Ki-kikon-ki. Here we have no- Ki-ki means
[refers to] kikon. Kikon, you know [is] classified into
rikon and donkon. And why I start to-started to talk
about this is because I want to explain, you know, what kind of- I
want to explain what kind of understanding or practice we have, you
know, and why it is necessary to practice zazen. And we- Buddhists
classified, you know, various people-human being in various way. So
one of the classification is, you know, rikon and
donkon.

Ki [13] means "potentiality." Ki. We have
potentiality to be Buddha-to be a buddha, you know, in its true
sense. So it is like a bow and arrow, you know. Arrow, you know,
has potentiality to-potentiality to fly, you know. Because bow and
arrow has potentiality, if you use it, you know, the arrow will go.
But if someone doesn't use, you know, bow and arrow it wouldn't go.
So bow and arrow has potentiality. So does we human being, you
know. We are ready to be a buddha, but if you don't practice zazen,
or if Buddha doesn't help you, you cannot be a buddha even though
you have potentiality.

So ki means potentiality, and rikon is-means
people who have good potentiality. And donkon means who have
not much, you know, potentiality.

And so far, Buddhists classified, you know, in various way. One
class- [partial word]-one interpretation-or you can translate, you
know, ki like "potentiality." Potentiality, you know, means-
One means two. One is possibility. Possibility. Potentiality, you
know, is also possibility. The other is- If you, you know, talk
about its nature, it is, you know, possibility-I have possibility
to be a buddha. But if you observe me in term of time, you know,
when, you know, in future, you know, even though I have, you
know, potentiality to be a buddha, you know, if, you know, someone
doesn't help me I cannot be a buddha. You see? Or if I have a
chance to be a buddha by practice, we cannot be a buddha.

So from the viewpoint of nature, you know, it is possibility,
you know-I have possibility. And from viewpoint of time, it is, you
know-I don't know what to say in English, you know. Do you- Do you
find out some good word? Future possibility [laughs], maybe.
Future possibility. Future possibility will be- You know, it
include the idea of time. When you don't include idea of time, it
is possibility. Potentiality is possibil- [partial word]-equal
possibility.

And when you have-you ask me when, it means future
possibility: when, you know. Today or tomorrow. So when we
think, you know, when we understand the word "potentiality" in term
of nature, we should be very kind and very generous to everyone,
you know, because everyone has potential-possibility to be a
buddha, even though they are not buddha right now. Because
right-because he has, you know, possibility to be a buddha.

So we should not, you know-we should respect him, and we should
be very generous to people. But when we think about the possibility
in term of "when," you know, sometime you should be very strict
with someone. Do you understand? If you miss this time, you know,
if you do not [make a] good effort in one week or in one year, you,
you know, you will not have chance to attain enlightenment. If you
say always "tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow" [laughs], you know, even
though you have possibility [laughing], you cannot attain
enlightenment. So when we think when, you know, time,
we should be very strict with people.

It is same thing with your practice, you know. When you don't
think, you know, about time-when-you know, you can be very
generous with everyone, you know. You will be-you can treat people
very well. Always. But if we, you know, think-if we have to think
about time, you know-"today" or "tomorrow" [laughing]-we cannot be
so generous because we will lose time. So "You should finish this"
and "I'll finish this" and "You should help him," you know, and "I
will help some other person." In this way, you know, we should be
very strict with ourselves.

So that is why we, you know, analyze potentiality in various
way. One is possibility, and the other is future possibility. So
possibility, ki, means- ki, means "possibility" and
"future possibility." When we understand potentiality in this way,
you can, you know, work-you can practice very well-sometime very
generous way and sometime very strict way. We have to have, you
know, two side in our practice, or in our understanding of
ki-chance, or, you know, possibility. This is the first one
[interpretation of ki].

And second one is interrelation. Ki means
"interrelation." It is relationship between, you know, buddha and
good people, and buddha who has-who is good nature-and who has bad
nature [laughs]. I am sorry to say "bad nature" [laughs] but
tentatively I have to say so. So for the people who has good
nature, you know, we should give-we should encourage them, giving
some, you know, joy-joy of practice. We should enjoy our practice
with good person. When we practice with someone, even though
tentatively, you know, while [for] a while, who is not so good
[laughs], you know, we should, you know, suffer with him. That is
another understanding.

So ki means sometime "interrelationship between buddha
and someone who helps, and someone who is helped." So in the
relationship between good person and you, there is-that
relationship will be to encourage, to give joy of practice is
ki-actual meaning of ki. And for the person who
has-who is suffering, you should suffer with him, you know. That is
so-called-it jihi.[14]

When we say "love" in our term, jihi. Jihi is usually
translated "love," you know, but love means-love has two sides. One
is to give joy, yoraku, and the other is bakku.
Bakku is to eliminate [suffering[15]]-to suffer with them. To eliminate
[suffering]-to make their-his suffering less, you know, we suffer
with him. We share their suffering. That is love. So love has two
side: to give joy, to give something, you know. If he is very good,
you know, we can enjoy joy of practice with him by giving good
cushion, good zendo, you know, and something like this.

But actually, who is suffering? Zendo doesn't mean
anything [laughs]. It doesn't mean anything. Whatever you give him,
he will not accept it. "No, I don't need. I suffer a lot. I don't
know why. Right now, you know, to get out of suffering is most
important point. Nothing can help me. You cannot help me,"
he may say. When you hear that, like Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva,
you should be someone-you should be like someone who is suffering,
and you should suffer as he suffers. Actually, you will feel in
that way, you know. You-if you see someone who is in suffer[ing],
you will suffer too. That is because of your love, you know
[tapping chest], your innate love, your instinct of love, you share
the suffering. That is love in its true sense. So ki may
mean not only "possibility" or "potentiality," but also
"relationship." This is second interpretation of ki.

And third one is "good means," or "adequateness," you know.
Like, you know, pots and cover [laughs], you know. You cannot put
big cover, you know, like in Japan we have bathtub, you know. You
may know what is Japanese bathtub. It is wooden barrel, you know,
big barrel, which has its cover. After finishing bath we cover the
bath with the big wooden cover. But that cover cannot be used for
the pan [laughs]. It is too big. So bath must have, you know, cover
for itself.

So ki means, you know, "adequateness." So here it says
also, if you see person who is suffering because of ignorance,
because of what he is-because he doesn't know what he is doing, you
must, you know, give tear-you must suffer with him. That is, you
know, to-to have good relationship. When you see someone who enjoy
his true nature, you should give ji-ji. Ji
means, you know, compassion-not compassion-to-to encourage him.

And here, you know, this is what-this is extra [laughs]. And
next thing is what I am very much interested in it. You know there
is-there is Buddhist understand this way: Buddhism will not last
forever, you know. It will perish, you know, after thousand year
from Buddha's death. But that thousand year in some other sutra it
say some other way, but anyway, we have this kind of
understanding.

When Buddha-first five hundred years-this is not exactly-cannot
be exactly so-but the first five hundred years, when Buddha's
direct disciple or grandson of-grand-disciple-anyway, the first
five hundred [years] will have good sages like something like
Buddha. And next, you know, hundred years-so it means after-one
thousand years after his death-we will have, you know, people who
practice zazen and who study, you know, Buddhism. That is the
people after the first five hundred to one thousand. The last time
[laughs]-this is interesting-last time, which is after one thousand
year [laughs], they will not observe precepts [laughs, laughter].
It is exactly so [laughs, laughter]. They will not observe
precepts. But they will read sutras [laughing] and they will chant
sutras. They will not [be] interested in zazen so much. And
those people we had in the first thousand years-people like
arhat or people who practice zazen or people who understood
his teaching-difficult to find out, or no one can be like that. And
the people will be involved in just, you know, idea of emptiness
or, you know, somethingness [laughing]-somethingness or
emptiness.

You know, we talk about emptiness, you know, and you think you
understand emptiness, but if you understand emptiness, you know,
even though you explain pretty well what is emptiness, but it is
[laughs] this one [pointing to the character for ji
], not that one [pointing to the character for ri ]. Real
emptiness will be ex- [partial word]-not experienced, you know-will
be realized by good practice.

So here it says after-people after thousand year after Buddha
will have, you know, idea of emptiness or idea of somethingness
[laughs]. But they will not understand what [is] really
meant by emptiness or somethingness. So purpose of Sandokai
is, you know, to make this point clear: what is, you know,
emptiness, what is somethingness, what is darkness, what is
clearness, what is true source of the teaching, what is various
being which, you know, is supported by true source of the teaching
is the purpose of his-his intention of writing-making this poem of
Sandokai.

I borrowed, you know, a book from-from-from Gary [Snyder]'s
wife, you know-Mas-Masa-Masa-and about Sangai-kyo, you know, a
small Vajra school of Japan: Sangai-kyo. And in that book, you
know, it said-it says, the people in the last-in after one thousand
year after Buddha's death-they will [laughs]-people will-may be
classified in two [laughing]. Very appropriate, you know. You know,
it explains what we are doing here and what they are doing here in
Japan [laughs]. Good contrast. And, you know, it is explain very
well, you know. Anyway, we do not observe precepts [laughs,
laughter]. In Japan, you know, we eat fish, we kill animals, and in
America too, you know. In its strict sense we don't observe-that is
very true.

And, you know, one is very innocent [laughs], because, you know,
you don't know about what you are actually doing [when] you violate
precepts. But in Japan, even though they know what they are doing,
you know, they still do it because they are shameless [laughs,
laughter]. They have no idea of shame, you know. I thought "You
have no idea of shame," but if I think more, you know, they do
not-knowing that what they should do, you know, to do not observe
is real shameless, you know. You know, innocent people looks like
shameless, but it is not, you know, real shameless [laughs]. So I
was very interested in the description of the people in our time.
And anyway, we will just-we will be involved in, you know, this
idea-ji-only.

So you may ask, you know, "What is real teaching of Buddha?" you
know. If you don't, you know, understand it you will keep asking
someone, you know, "What is it? What is it? What does it mean?" You
are just seeking for something which you can understand. That is
mistake, you know.

Dogen-zenji says, "There is no bird who flies after the limit of
the sky," you know. "There is no fish who swim after knowing the
end of the ocean." [Laughs.] We don't exist in that way. We exist
in limitless world. And sentient being is, you know, numberless,
and our desire is limitless, but still, you know, we have to, you
know, try-we have to continue to make our effort like fish flies
[laughs]-swims-like bird swim [flies]. So Dogen-zenji says, "Bird
fly like a bird; fish swims like a fish." That is bodhisattva's
way, and that is how, you know, we observe our practice. When we
understand in this way, according to Dogen, we are not people in
the, you know, we are not people in mappo. Mappo is
last period.

Shobo/zobo/mappo. Shobo is Buddha's time.
Zobo is imitation-dharma imitation-imitation-dharma time.
And mappo is last period. But still, you know, in some way,
in some way, Buddhism exist [laughs]. But if we understand,
really, you know, what he meant, that is-it means that we
are in Buddha's time. As Dogen-zenji said, "Buddha is always here."
You should not be involved in time or space, you know. Our practice
should not be disturbed by some framework of time or space.

[4] uken:
heterodox view that dharmas have a real or permanent existence.

[5] seiketsu
(na) (Jap.): (adj.) clean.

[6] From the
contemporaneous transcript by Marian Derby.

[7] Daitsu Jinshu
and Daikan Eno were both disciples of the Fifth Patriarch Daiman
Konin. According to one tradition, when the Fifth Ancestor wanted
to find his successor, he asked the monks to write a poem to
express their understanding. Jinshu, the head monk, wrote the
following poem on a wall in the middle of the night:

Our body is the bodhi tree,

our mind a mirror bright.

Carefully wipe them hour by hour,

and let no dust alight.

When Eno saw this the next day, he asked a monk to write down
the following poem for him:

There is no bodhi tree,

nor stand of a mirror bright.

Since all is void,

where can the dust alight?

When Konin saw this, he knew the author had the understanding he
was looking for and recognized Eno as his dharma heir and thus the
Sixth Ancestor.

[8] From the
contemporaneous transcript by Marian Derby.

[9] From the
contemporaneous transcript by Marian Derby (her notes during tape
change).

[10]Kikon: "The capacity of the common people to understand the
teachings of Buddhism" -Daito Shuppansha, Japanese-English
Buddhist Dictionary (1971), p. 174.

[11]Rikon: "People with keen minds who are capable of
understanding the subtle teachings of the Buddha"-ibid., p.
234.