The truth of our decline.

Made this handy little spread sheet. it covers the 5 of our top 6 forwards that are signed for next season. has the names, ages, and 3 stats for each year from 2008 through 2012. Those stats are: GP=games played, PTS=points, and shts=shoots on goal. Black numbers are no change or improved, red numbers are declines.Name----Age--------------------20082009201020112012--------------------------------GPPTSshtsGPPTSshtsGPPTSshtsGPPTSshtsGPPTSshts

Zetterberg--32-------------75923587773309747030980803068269267

Datsyk----34----------------82972648197248807020356591377067164

Franzen----33---------------7238199715924627219176552487756211

Burtuzzi----37---------------68401216644127824421681451387138118

Cleary---34------------------63421777440163643414068461927533199

Now for some follow up. Of the 15 numbers for each player, dat has 9 reds. meaning he is declinging just about every year, in just about every catagory. it would be worse but his numbers this year are improved over 2011 when he was hurt. But his 2012 numbers are worse than his 2010 numbers. Second in red numbers is Z. he has 7 out of 15 in red. Cleary has 6 out 15 in red. Burt also has 6 out of 15 in red. franzen has declined the fewest times. Only 5 red numbers. The number that stands out to me the most, is dat's decline in shots. In 2008 he took 264 shots. Then followed by 248, 203, 137, and finally 164 this past year. Granted he played 12 fewer games, but he had 103 fewer shots! That is a 38% drop!

None of us want to se a bad RW team. We all want to win Cups every year. But we also have to face facts. The fact is we need to find our next pair of great forwards that can lead us for the next 10 years. We started this run with Yzerman and federov, then continued it with dat and Z. No where in our organization do we have 2 guys that are potential 80 point per year guys. This is Holland's big challenge. Do we trade? Sign FA's? move up in the draft somewhere? My personnel opinion is they need to be C's. A wing by himself can't do it. A good sniper-like parise is, can't score if no one can get him the puck. One last thing. Please understand the difference between good and great. dat and Z are still good players. They are not great players anymore. They will continue to work hard, provide leadership, and score 60 to 75 points for a few more years. But they are not guys that can carry a team anymore. help carry yes, but we have to find the next pair to do the heavy lifting.

That "pair" will have to come in the draft...two things though, with the Wings always making the playoffs and most the time going fairly deep, they never get a high enough draft pick to score a Yzerman type player and there are barely anymore Fedorov/Datsyuk's to steal away from Russia. I agree, they need to get that next two or three centers to carry this team after a few more years, but honestly, I don't think Holland can do it. And I definitely do not want to see the Wings get a first overall pick (unless it's via an RFA lose or trade.) It could potentially happen next season if Holland lets RFA Quincey sign somewhere else and gets compensated with the 1st/3rd draft picks and if that somewhere else ends up being a lottery team...it could happen...

DAN WHATEVER YOUR f****** NAME IS CLEAR OR CLEARLY GET THE f*** OUT OF THIS TEAM BACK GO f****** LEARN TO PLAY MORON I PERSONALY DON'T GIVE A s*** THAT YR LEG IS f***ET UP, PLEASE LIIVE. ANF BABCOCK PLEASE GET READ OF OUR QUINESSSSSSYYYYY HOLLAND YOU JUST HIT THE JUCK f****** POTT!

Honestly, I feel like that "pair" is going to stem out of Nyquist, Jarnkrok and/or Jurco. Some people doubt their upside, but I firmly believe that the first two are for sure, solid two-way players. I'd still like to see what happens with Jurco, but I think he's got a lot of upside.

Honestly, I feel like that "pair" is going to stem out of Nyquist, Jarnkrok and/or Jurco. Some people doubt their upside, but I firmly believe that the first two are for sure, solid two-way players. I'd still like to see what happens with Jurco, but I think he's got a lot of upside.

Hard to say with guys that have yet to play a single professional hockey game. There is a huge step from juniors to the minors, and an even bigger step from the minors to the NHL.

The easy part is to say: "we need to upgrade at x, y, z postions". the harder part is doing it. Lets look at a few things.

1. we don't have much to trade. Burt-old and no trade clause, Dat-old and no trade cluase, Z not really old yetbut how many are willing to take on the remianing 9 years of his contract, franzen-same problem, Ericcson-no trade clause. No 2-3 players in our minors are going to bring a big name. The only real pieces we could trade are Filppula and Kornwall.
2. trying to rebuild via FA is always a crap shoot. You never know how it will turn out. You also tend to overpay for players.

3. The draft. In many ways we got very very lucky. getting 3 superstars: dat, Z and Hommer, that late in a draft is PURE luck. Not going to happen again. But looking past those 3, how mnay superstars or even stars have we drafted in the past decade? Not many. Howard was in the past decade, but after him the next best would be Filppula. good yes, but star?

Made this handy little spread sheet. it covers the 5 of our top 6 forwards that are signed for next season. has the names, ages, and 3 stats for each year from 2008 through 2012. Those stats are: GP=games played, PTS=points, and shts=shoots on goal. Black numbers are no change or improved, red numbers are declines.Name----Age--------------------20082009201020112012--------------------------------GPPTSshtsGPPTSshtsGPPTSshtsGPPTSshtsGPPTSshts

Zetterberg--32-------------75923587773309747030980803068269267

Datsyk----34----------------82972648197248807020356591377067164

Franzen----33---------------7238199715924627219176552487756211

Burtuzzi----37---------------68401216644127824421681451387138118

Cleary---34------------------63421777440163643414068461927533199

Now for some follow up. Of the 15 numbers for each player, dat has 9 reds. meaning he is declinging just about every year, in just about every catagory. it would be worse but his numbers this year are improved over 2011 when he was hurt. But his 2012 numbers are worse than his 2010 numbers. Second in red numbers is Z. he has 7 out of 15 in red. Cleary has 6 out 15 in red. Burt also has 6 out of 15 in red. franzen has declined the fewest times. Only 5 red numbers. The number that stands out to me the most, is dat's decline in shots. In 2008 he took 264 shots. Then followed by 248, 203, 137, and finally 164 this past year. Granted he played 12 fewer games, but he had 103 fewer shots! That is a 38% drop!

None of us want to se a bad RW team. We all want to win Cups every year. But we also have to face facts. The fact is we need to find our next pair of great forwards that can lead us for the next 10 years. We started this run with Yzerman and federov, then continued it with dat and Z. No where in our organization do we have 2 guys that are potential 80 point per year guys. This is Holland's big challenge. Do we trade? Sign FA's? move up in the draft somewhere? My personnel opinion is they need to be C's. A wing by himself can't do it. A good sniper-like parise is, can't score if no one can get him the puck. One last thing. Please understand the difference between good and great. dat and Z are still good players. They are not great players anymore. They will continue to work hard, provide leadership, and score 60 to 75 points for a few more years. But they are not guys that can carry a team anymore. help carry yes, but we have to find the next pair to do the heavy lifting.

Chart was fixed, loaded poorly.....

Didn't you already over sing this tune on another thread...like...a couple days ago? No matter, I'll happily present you the real truth again.

First off, Cleary and Bertuzzi CAN play in the top 6, but they will likely see time in both the bottom and top 6 to make room for our YOUNG players (yes despite your oversights we do have them). We also may add another top 6 forward like Parise through FA this year which would also force those two into the bottom 6.

Now let's look at scoring percentage...since injuries will inherently impact and flaw all the stats you chose.

Those numbers are the definition of strong top 6 players and VERY consistent play.... 87% (Datsyuk) 84% (Zetterberg) are also arguably not AT ALL down years for a top 6 forward. Yet, because Datsyuk and Zetterberg are among the top 10 forwards in the league (offensively AND defensively, and yes even at this age) we'll call those down years for them You also conveniently left Filppula, Nyquist, and Hudler out of your evaluation....Those are 3 young players who WILL be on this team next year. (Hudler the only one who may get cut, but who would be likely replaced by an upgrade anyway)

Hudler (In and out of the top 6)2007/2008 = 51%2008/2009 = 69%2009/2010 = did not play2010/2011 = 50%2011/2012 = 61%

Hate to burst your bubble but we have one of the highest scoring and most capable Top 6's in the league....And players like Nyquist/Filpulla/Hudler are getting better and taking on larger roles in the Top 6, While Datsyuk and Zetterberg continually show us Lidstrom-like ageless play....And even if we add no one to the top 6 this offseason...that still leaves us with 8 players who are capable of playing in the top 6...

While our team does have its problems and things that should be modified, the fact is the problem is not Datsyuk or Zetterberg......Your whole argument seems to rest on the fact that you think we need All-stars like Yzerman/Federov and Datsyuk/Zetterberg in order to win cups.....Guess what? It's not about the name on the back, it's about the logo on the front. This is a TEAM game, and no player or pair of players can carry any team to a cup....We need a well rounded team with all the right role-players and leaders....and right now we need size and grit in the bottom 6, a back up goalie, and maybe a sniper....not a new Datsyuk or Zetterberg

Good post Richdg. I wouldn't worry about all the neggs you get on the comments. Since I've been here, I have noticed many a Wing fan either incapable or unwilling to face the fact that it will soon be time to rebuild and that we aren't a dynasty anymore. Sadly, even when you give them the facts and throw the numbers in their faces, you still wont get them to be realistic about it. Of course we all want to see Detroit be a dominant force in the league and compete for cups year after year. But when you look at the facts and look at the numbers, it's not there and it's easy to see the decline. Thanks for the reality check.

The easy part is to say: "we need to upgrade at x, y, z postions". the harder part is doing it. Lets look at a few things.

1. we don't have much to trade. Burt-old and no trade clause, Dat-old and no trade cluase, Z not really old yetbut how many are willing to take on the remianing 9 years of his contract, franzen-same problem, Ericcson-no trade clause. No 2-3 players in our minors are going to bring a big name. The only real pieces we could trade are Filppula and Kornwall.2. trying to rebuild via FA is always a crap shoot. You never know how it will turn out. You also tend to overpay for players.

3. The draft. In many ways we got very very lucky. getting 3 superstars: dat, Z and Hommer, that late in a draft is PURE luck. Not going to happen again. But looking past those 3, how mnay superstars or even stars have we drafted in the past decade? Not many. Howard was in the past decade, but after him the next best would be Filppula. good yes, but star?

Pure luck? What are you talking about? We very much intentionally drafted those players because we knew how good they were and we drafted them late because we knew how late they'd go. Datsyuk would have gone undrafted for petes sake and we knew that....thats why we drafted him the 9th round and not the first, even though we had him ranked among the 1st rounders. If thats luck we get lucky ALOT lol. its called superb scouting sir....and we got relative steals with ouellet, marchenko, jurco, and nyquist most recently

Why isn't Filppula in your spreadsheet, and why is Cleary? Seems to me you handpicked the forwards that fit your agenda and left off the ones who didn't. (Parise/Hudler)

Flip could easily shoulder part of Datsyuk and Zetterberg's loads as they get older, as can guys like Nyquist or Parise if we are lucky enough to land him. Then you have a ton of prospects with potential and good depth guys who haven't been given a shot with the Wings yet, all of which can transition into the line-up in the same way D and Z did.

The issue with Pulkkinen is he'll likely be limited to a pure offensive force. He's got a great shot and solid offensive instincts, but he lacks speed and defensive awareness. I think he could wind up as a solid top 6 guy, but I'm not sure about the "great forward" tag that Rich mentioned. You could toss him on a line that covers up his lack of speed/defense... a good complimentary player, I think. Could throw guys like Tatar and Tvrdon into the conversation too, but I have more faith in Nyquist, Jarnkrok and Jurco.

Hard to say with guys that have yet to play a single professional hockey game. There is a huge step from juniors to the minors, and an even bigger step from the minors to the NHL.

Sure there is, which is why I'm skeptical about Jurco. Nyquist has shown he can excel at the AHL level, and looked right in place on a line with Datsyuk. Jarnkrok's playing in the SEL, which is right on par or higher with the AHL. At times during the currenty IIHF tournament, he's looked like the best player on Sweden. I agree that you can never fully predict how good a player will be, but Nyquist and Jarnkrok have looked right in place with NHL caliber players.

Sure there is, which is why I'm skeptical about Jurco. Nyquist has shown he can excel at the AHL level, and looked right in place on a line with Datsyuk. Jarnkrok's playing in the SEL, which is right on par or higher with the AHL. At times during the currenty IIHF tournament, he's looked like the best player on Sweden. I agree that you can never fully predict how good a player will be, but Nyquist and Jarnkrok have looked right in place with NHL caliber players.

Despite being drafted just last summer, Tomas Jurco is due to make the jump to pro hockey this fall, thanks to his late 1992 birth date. Being ahead of the curve is nothing new for the Slovakian sniper, who originally burst onto the scene in 2009 as a 16-year-old rookie with Saint John.

Jurco had an immediate impact with 26 goals and 51 points in the 64 games of his rookie year and some were disappointed when his sophomore effort simply totaled 31 goals and 56 points in 60 games, but the Slovakian was working hard to improve other aspects of his game. That extra work has paid off in his third season, where he posted 30 goals and a career high 68 points in just 48 games, despite being hampered by injury.

Perhaps the most notable improvement that Jurco has made is in his consistency. Listed at 6'2 and 193 lbs, Jurco is much more effective when he uses his size to find space on the ice and drive the net. This can be seen in the playoffs this spring, where Jurco has 10 goals and 22 points in 14 games thus far. He also played for Team Slovakia at the World Juniors, leading the team with eight points in five games.

As mentioned, thanks to Jurco's December birthday, he's eligible to graduate to pro hockey next season. Although he may start his pro career in the AHL, Jurco has the tools to be an NHL player in the very near future.

Good post Richdg. I wouldn't worry about all the neggs you get on the comments. Since I've been here, I have noticed many a Wing fan either incapable or unwilling to face the fact that it will soon be time to rebuild and that we aren't a dynasty anymore. Sadly, even when you give them the facts and throw the numbers in their faces, you still wont get them to be realistic about it. Of course we all want to see Detroit be a dominant force in the league and compete for cups year after year. But when you look at the facts and look at the numbers, it's not there and it's easy to see the decline. Thanks for the reality check.

Good post Richdg. I wouldn't worry about all the neggs you get on the comments. Since I've been here, I have noticed many a Wing fan either incapable or unwilling to face the fact that it will soon be time to rebuild and that we aren't a dynasty anymore. Sadly, even when you give them the facts and throw the numbers in their faces, you still wont get them to be realistic about it. Of course we all want to see Detroit be a dominant force in the league and compete for cups year after year. But when you look at the facts and look at the numbers, it's not there and it's easy to see the decline. Thanks for the reality check.

I think you are mostly correct, but until they don't make the playoffs and/or accumulate 100 points in the regular season, the dynasty is still intact, although it's power is clearly waning.

The Wings need an infusion of youth and talent in the top 6. I think any Wings fan should be able to see that.

The issue with Pulkkinen is he'll likely be limited to a pure offensive force. He's got a great shot and solid offensive instincts, but he lacks speed and defensive awareness. I think he could wind up as a solid top 6 guy, but I'm not sure about the "great forward" tag that Rich mentioned. You could toss him on a line that covers up his lack of speed/defense... a good complimentary player, I think. Could throw guys like Tatar and Tvrdon into the conversation too, but I have more faith in Nyquist, Jarnkrok and Jurco.

Pure shooter on the wing with a player like Datsyuk? Yes, please.

I'm on board with the other guys, but as a team with as many two-way players and pass-first guys, we need a selfish shooter for once. Of course, he set an assist record so there's that as well.

Good post Richdg. I wouldn't worry about all the neggs you get on the comments. Since I've been here, I have noticed many a Wing fan either incapable or unwilling to face the fact that it will soon be time to rebuild and that we aren't a dynasty anymore. Sadly, even when you give them the facts and throw the numbers in their faces, you still wont get them to be realistic about it. Of course we all want to see Detroit be a dominant force in the league and compete for cups year after year. But when you look at the facts and look at the numbers, it's not there and it's easy to see the decline. Thanks for the reality check.

Good lord, we were consistently among the top 3 teams the first half of the regular season till injuries plagued us during the second half and playoffs. And people like you take for granted that WE MADE THE PLAYOFFS....For pete's sake most of teams who DIDN'T make the playoffs are not going to be rebuilding. Why in gods name would we???? Guess What? Since 2009 we have been RELOADING...Kennys been waiting for the right FA's to hit the market....Farms been gettin riper and riper...We've allowed Helmer and Abby to fully replace Drapes and Maltby...Ericsson and Filppula are breaking out.....Basically the point is your thinking way too much in the short term.... We are not going to win every year....But we are going to be competitive EVERY YEAR. We run a system that allows us to do this and NOT have to rebuild. You'd think 16 years would enough be for people to realize this but apparently not. I swear sometimes I think you guys just want to see headliners like RNH and Landeskog come to this team and that's it.

The numbers he "threw in our faces" were completely skewed to his point. We have some of the best numbers in the league. There is not even much I can say about that because they speak for themselves. Our numbers were still better than most this year and it was A down year. Emphasis on the A in "a down year".

I'm all for a reality check. The team needed one and think the best thing that could have happened was us going out in the first round. Kenny got a little wake up and the players got a little wake up. Now lets take that reality check, add some depth this off season, and play like we want it. If we add Parise or Suter this off season (let alone both) I will feel baddddd for the other teams in the league lol. Those would be 2 HIGH caliber players added on to an already HIGH caliber team.....But good god sir this not a time to rebuild or even think about rebuilding...Unless somebody completely screws stuff up we won't be rebuilding for a longggg time.....reality checks are good but PANICKING IS NOT....at least act like u have some composure

I think you are mostly correct, but until they don't make the playoffs and/or accumulate 100 points in the regular season, the dynasty is still intact, although it's power is clearly waning.

The Wings need an infusion of youth and talent in the top 6. I think any Wings fan should be able to see that.

AGREED....and it's coming (Nyquist, Smith, Andersson, the rest of our stacked farm, not to mention the various FA's we are seeking) we just have to be patient is all. Can't win it all every year boys.

Holy Jesus am I ever sick of clicking on a new thread, all excited to read something new and then seeing the SAME things posted by the SAME people. I still love LGW but some of the new posters (yes my post count is low but I'm not brand new) are driving me insane.

Also, number9 took the words right out of my mouth. "Can't win it all every year..."

Holy Jesus am I ever sick of clicking on a new thread, all excited to read something new and then seeing the SAME things posted by the SAME people. I still love LGW but some of the new posters (yes my post count is low but I'm not brand new) are driving me insane.

Also, number9 took the words right out of my mouth. "Can't win it all every year..."

Then don't read and post on it. Pretty simple.

Didn't you already over sing this tune on another thread...like...a couple days ago? No matter, I'll happily present you the real truth again.

First off, Cleary and Bertuzzi CAN play in the top 6, but they will likely see time in both the bottom and top 6 to make room for our YOUNG players (yes despite your oversights we do have them). We also may add another top 6 forward like Parise through FA this year which would also force those two into the bottom 6.

Now let's look at scoring percentage...since injuries will inherently impact and flaw all the stats you chose.

Those numbers are the definition of strong top 6 players and VERY consistent play.... 87% (Datsyuk) 84% (Zetterberg) are also arguably not AT ALL down years for a top 6 forward. Yet, because Datsyuk and Zetterberg are among the top 10 forwards in the league (offensively AND defensively, and yes even at this age) we'll call those down years for them You also conveniently left Filppula, Nyquist, and Hudler out of your evaluation....Those are 3 young players who WILL be on this team next year. (Hudler the only one who may get cut, but who would be likely replaced by an upgrade anyway)

Hudler (In and out of the top 6)2007/2008 = 51%2008/2009 = 69%2009/2010 = did not play2010/2011 = 50%2011/2012 = 61%

Hate to burst your bubble but we have one of the highest scoring and most capable Top 6's in the league....And players like Nyquist/Filpulla/Hudler are getting better and taking on larger roles in the Top 6, While Datsyuk and Zetterberg continually show us Lidstrom-like ageless play....And even if we add no one to the top 6 this offseason...that still leaves us with 8 players who are capable of playing in the top 6...

While our team does have its problems and things that should be modified, the fact is the problem is not Datsyuk or Zetterberg......Your whole argument seems to rest on the fact that you think we need All-stars like Yzerman/Federov and Datsyuk/Zetterberg in order to win cups.....Guess what? It's not about the name on the back, it's about the logo on the front. This is a TEAM game, and no player or pair of players can carry any team to a cup....We need a well rounded team with all the right role-players and leaders....and right now we need size and grit in the bottom 6, a back up goalie, and maybe a sniper....not a new Datsyuk or Zetterberg

Where is crymson when you need him to knock some sense into people

I provid proof with real actual numbers and you talk about some % that is tied to what exactly? Some fantasy league % doesn't win games. Goals do. Either by scoring them or preventing them. Thought you would know that.

Holy Jesus am I ever sick of clicking on a new thread, all excited to read something new and then seeing the SAME things posted by the SAME people. I still love LGW but some of the new posters (yes my post count is low but I'm not brand new) are driving me insane.

Honestly this is probably the primary cause of all the negs to the posters above. It's taking something that's been posted about and discussed and debated multiple times in other threads and it's just grinding it further then it needs to go. I've been a member for a long time but i'm relatively new to posting here, and i've found that the majority of the people here are knowledgeable and fair as long as you aren't constantly falling outside of the guidelines of the forum rules.

Fact is, we made the playoffs, broke the home ice record for most consecutive regular season wins, and overall had a successful season even through major injury problems. Filppula is emerging as a valuable young player for this team, and Smith really looks like he can develop into a franchise player. Sure we got knocked out of the first round, but look at all the other excellent teams that fell out in the first round also. It's gonna happen, and i'm not very concerned about the future of this team because we really haven't fallen all that far. Once we go a season or two missing the playoffs i'll begin to look for answers.

The issue with Pulkkinen is he'll likely be limited to a pure offensive force. He's got a great shot and solid offensive instincts, but he lacks speed and defensive awareness. I think he could wind up as a solid top 6 guy, but I'm not sure about the "great forward" tag that Rich mentioned. You could toss him on a line that covers up his lack of speed/defense... a good complimentary player, I think. Could throw guys like Tatar and Tvrdon into the conversation too, but I have more faith in Nyquist, Jarnkrok and Jurco.

Sure there is, which is why I'm skeptical about Jurco. Nyquist has shown he can excel at the AHL level, and looked right in place on a line with Datsyuk. Jarnkrok's playing in the SEL, which is right on par or higher with the AHL. At times during the currenty IIHF tournament, he's looked like the best player on Sweden. I agree that you can never fully predict how good a player will be, but Nyquist and Jarnkrok have looked right in place with NHL caliber players.