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save the zen hall!

ok, this is a zendo, with a (virtual) zen hall -- why am i one of the only ones here who uses the hall? here's a quote from jundo's original post:

Dear All,

I've had a dream from long before the start of Treeleaf that can now be realized thanks to our lovely "Zazen Sitting Room" ... the "Always Open Zazen Cafe" ...

It is a simple really: If and when we have enough members in various locations and time zones, the proposal is to have at least one person commit to be sitting in the video Zendo for 1 hour, in some time zone, 24 hours a day. That way, there will always be at least one person sitting there, and a place folks from anywhere can always go 24 hours to have someone to sit with when they feel a little lonely in their Zazen. The candle will always be burning! With all the people we have in different time Zones, I think we can start to cover a lot of time, even if not 24 hours. And it is not really so much of a hassle I think, just a commitment to turn your camera on while you are sitting a daily round of Zazen.

Now, I think it is too early to start something like that, and lets wait a little while to work out the kinks in the place and get used to it. Eventually, I foresee an online sign-up schedule where folks can commit to the hours in which they will sit (folks can commit to do it, for example, for a block of weeks or a month, for example ... it does not have to be for 9 years like old Jundo's "Sit-a-Long with Jundo" Vow. In fact, a vow to do it for a few weeks or more can be your own personal practice commitment and opportunity!). For now, I just wanted to toss the idea out there so people could think about it,

(actually, I heard a similar story about some Buddhist priests chanting for peace too, but I cannot find information about them now) who pray 24 hours non-stop, one nun at a time. Whatever you feel about their efforts, it is kinda nice to know somebody is out there who cares.

Of course, the sitting room will also continue to be used for informal group sits (like Will is organizing) and more formal sittings and events like our "One Day Zazenkai's" and "Jukai".

So, that the "Always Open Zazen Cafe"!

Gassho, Jundo

look, it was empty when i joined last july, and its emptier now -- there's a great scheduler, and mebeam is more stable than last year(just finished 3 hrs, no glitch), so i can't see technical issues being the problem -- i'm willing to commit to do almost all of my sits in the hall -- anyone else interested?

why do this? - well, maybe don't -- but my reason: my practice is strengthened when i sit with others -- sitting alone, as i have for years, i tend to slack off -- the zen hall is as close to "real" as it gets

Re: save the zen hall!

Hey Roky.

I was actually going to try to make it a point to schedule myself for the zen hall more often, so I must thank you for the reminder.
I do think it would be nice to have more people join in, but maybe they cannot due to technical reasons or lack of some technical equipment. I know I would not have a webcam if I did not buy a new laptop for school. Even when I sit alone I try to think (not to think?) that I am sitting with everyone even if I am not.

Re: save the zen hall!

thanks, kyle/myoshin, i'll try and sit with you if i see you scheduled -- i tend to sit during the earlier part of the day, est, cause i'm semi retired, working at home

having adapted to a minimal thinkpad($12), i've had to figure out a bunch re: mebeam, so if anyone viewing this needs help with it, i can try -- right off, i assume everyone knows there has to be 2 windows open, or mebeam times out in 90 seconds

its not necessary to have the best computer to do this -- mine is about 300mhz/6gb hard drive/200mb ram -- i'll bet most treeleafers have better than that

also, a lot of cheap digital cameras also function as webcams, you just plug them in to the usb port -- aiptek online is where i got mine, $9

again, please ask if you have questions, and obviously, its ok to know nothing about computers -- if you're interested in sitting in the hall, i'll be glad to try and help -- you can even pm me

Re: save the zen hall!

Originally Posted by roky

its not necessary to have the best computer to do this -- mine is about 300mhz/6gb hard drive/200mb ram -- i'll bet most treeleafers have better than that

Not to justify myself... but for me the biggest problem is the internet connection, I use to share it with 6 people, and now I moved on, I've got to go to my neighbour to see my mails... but he's very kind...
So, I'll be glad to be regularly in the Zen Hall, when I get my own superquick connection (next month)... untill that, even the access to the schedule is difficult! And to see the sittings in the sit-a-long, I've got to download them with a program and watch them later...

Re: save the zen hall!

The main reason I don't use it any more is I don't sit at the same time each day and am unable to know when I can sit. The Schedule does not allow you to cancel a booking (unless this has been updated) and I did not want to book a time I could not meet.

Also I would rather parts of treeleaf to available to members only and am uncomfortable with some open public aspects.

Re: save the zen hall!

before i disappear

Roky-Im glad to be able to use of the zen hall.
But sitting with a camera on me or not i sit with ya.

My novel of away to say we go beyond here and there and now and then-

The thoughts of you all are exactly the same amount of "real" as the people seen as the shaky image of perfectly still buddhas on my computer screen seen via your web cam, as avatars on the forum or as the people we may bump into physically... After a moment they are just figments of my imagination just like i am. there realness depends on you and how you look at it. So when i sit solitary i 100% am sure im sitting with you, heck i can physically sit with you in the same room on the cushion beside you, at the same moment and still not be present. Our sangha is amazing in its ability to be 24/7 365 world wide and live PLUS a constant archive that allows our talks to move through moments and be picked up again for re-examination.

That all said any sitting group/sangha ive read about sits once or twice a week. In fact i found one here in town only 30 mins drive away... they sit tuesday evenings @ 7pm...i have family. The must come first. same thing applies here at the leaf. Family first. my practice with you all, is trying to be a compassionate being when disciplining my 3 year old, or listening to my wife more carefully maybe letting go of my sadness long enough to pick it up and see its nothing to be sad about. See? in putting my family first i am putting you all first.
For me the webcam and the virtual hall is great but it can be a distraction or a toy. Now that i have high speed i do sit on there somtimes...im aiming for a weekly sit wednesday evenings (est) - but like undo its up to my kids and wife and house and world exact time i sit. so days im not on there know that im right beside ya!

Now the kids and van need loaded and were off... believe me this is practice o_O. I will be sitting with you this week as always!

Re: save the zen hall!

Good point, roky. I'd like to see more activity myself. As far as scheduling, welll kinda hard for me as i sit at irregular times during the day. I do often check the schedule though, so i know what times someone else will be in and try to join them as I can ( read: i usually make it the priority on my things to do list provided i didn't already have something else going at that time).

I think it's very nice to sit with others. And I always enjoy seeing a new face on there.

The main reason I don't schedule my sits when i do them is because i think it's pretty rare to see other folks unless we agree to meet at a certain time. So I wonder fi there is a point. Then again, I am one who usually sneaks in on other scheduled folks so maybe I'm a lil stupid for thinking that ?

Re: save the zen hall!

Hey Bob,

I try and use the hall fairly regularly but I have to work around my wife and kids' schedules also which means, before 7am EST or after 8pm EST. If you would like, I can sit with you at 6:30 am EST. Just let me know - I'll check the sitting schedule in the evenings before I go to bed.

Re: save the zen hall!

As an after thought...

How possible would it be for everyone to use the same Time Zone? Maybe UTC (Coordinated Universal Time)?
That way everyone would only need to make one adjustment when looking ahead to book a slot or trying to meet up with other members to book a time slot.

Re: save the zen hall!

the only reason i run windows is for the zen hall -- otherwise i much prefer linux -- but in xubuntu, it wouldn';t even relate to mebeam, yet alone recognize my webcam

so i keep winxp or 2k dual booted with puppy linux(my favorite), use puppy for surfing, and windows for zen hall

roky

What's 'puppy' linux?

With the Mac, it's just a matter of setting the webcam to USB webcam. I thought because it was an iSight and iSight used to be Firewire (when it was a separate device) that it'd be a FW webcam. Changed setting to USB webcam and it worked.

Re: save the zen hall!

yeah, dave, exactly -- is there a point? -- if i'm going to sit alone, i'd just as soon turn the noisy computer off, and sit with the bird sounds -- but obviously, if we all do that, then here we are, empty zen hall -- and so i posted this, cause i'm going to keep trying for a while -- i know many will think its silly, but i actually left treeleaf, didn't do jukai, cause i got tired of sitting alone -- i just can't connect with written posts alone -- and in this crazy world i'm in, i need a little image on a screen to convince me that there's other nuts banging their head against the wall

padre, same thing for me, like right now, i'm watching the rain on the radar -- when it rains, i'll quick sign up -- but when the cloud passes, i've got to work on that mercedes fender in the back yard, cause its been almost non-stop rain here

ron, we've always sat together, so lets do the 6:30 am, i'll put it in there the day before -- i'd rather not do the after 8pm thing, did it with will last night, kept nodding out -- and like we've all been saying, sometimes you can't make it, thats ok, right? -- i mean, my view on it is i'd rather see people sign up and not show, then not sign up at all -- i know i can't set the alarm, cause my scicilian wife will kill me -- are you talking m-f, or daily?

undo , i don't know, how would that help? -- when will pops up on my scheduler at 20:30, i know its actually tomorrow morning for him, but all i need to know is that its 8:30 pm for me - no?

chet, puppy linux is a real small linux operating system -- linux is the main alternative to microsoft windows -- and its free -- and linux is faster than windows, cause it don't need no firewall, cause no ones writing viruses, mostly -- puppy is very user friendly, plus, the wallpaper is the cutest puppy -- but i give up trying to get any linux to run my crappy little webcam

Re: save the zen hall!

Originally Posted by roky

yeah, dave, exactly -- is there a point? -- if i'm going to sit alone, i'd just as soon turn the noisy computer off, and sit with the bird sounds -- but obviously, if we all do that, then here we are, empty zen hall -- and so i posted this, cause i'm going to keep trying for a while -- i know many will think its silly, but i actually left treeleaf, didn't do jukai, cause i got tired of sitting alone -- i just can't connect with written posts alone -- and in this crazy world i'm in, i need a little image on a screen to convince me that there's other nuts banging their head against the wall

Hey Bob,

I don't think it's silly that you like having others in the zen hall and I was the one in there with you during the Zazenkai on Saturday. However, I do think you spend a lot of your time banging your head against a wall (figuratively I hope!) resisting sitting by yourself, which will continue to cause you great pain whether or not more folks start using the zen hall. If an image on your screen is needed to convince you that we are all sitting with you then I think some of your time would be well spent exploring why you feel it's so necessary and why you gave up Treeleaf for a time because of it.

Re: save the zen hall!

Sorry, I don't get the "we're all sitting together regardless of time or place" point of view. I've found there is a huge difference between sitting alone and sitting in a group. For me sitting live in the zen hall with other people comes somewhere in-between.

Re: save the zen hall!

undo , i don't know, how would that help? -- when will pops up on my scheduler at 20:30, i know its actually tomorrow morning for him, but all i need to know is that its 8:30 pm for me - no?

Hello Roky

I was thinking more when Ron said "..before 7am EST or after 8pm EST..." I think there is more than one EST, as in New South Wales. Maybe when we have Jundo live sit we could just have start time 16:00 UTC rather than 23:00 Japan, 05:00 paris, 15:00China 17:00Sea of Tranquility, 23:00 Norther point Amazon River.*

Then again if it's not broken then why fix it?

Undo

*These are all uneducated guesses, a part from the Sea of Tranquility so you can set your clock by that one.

Re: save the zen hall!

undo , i don't know, how would that help? -- when will pops up on my scheduler at 20:30, i know its actually tomorrow morning for him, but all i need to know is that its 8:30 pm for me - no?

Hello Roky

I was thinking more when Ron said "..before 7am EST or after 8pm EST..." I think there is more than one EST, as in New South Wales. Maybe when we have Jundo live sit we could just have start time 16:00 UTC rather than 23:00 Japan, 05:00 paris, 15:00China 17:00Sea of Tranquility, 23:00 Norther point Amazon River.*

Then again if it's not broken then why fix it?

Undo

*These are all uneducated guesses, a part from the Sea of Tranquility so you can set your clock by that one.

Re: save the zen hall!

Originally Posted by roky

yeah, dave, exactly -- is there a point? -- if i'm going to sit alone, i'd just as soon turn the noisy computer off, and sit with the bird sounds -- but obviously, if we all do that, then here we are, empty zen hall -- and so i posted this, cause i'm going to keep trying for a while -- i know many will think its silly, but i actually left treeleaf, didn't do jukai, cause i got tired of sitting alone -- i just can't connect with written posts alone -- and in this crazy world i'm in, i need a little image on a screen to convince me that there's other nuts banging their head against the wall.

gassho, roky/bob

For me, the zen-hall helps to motivate me and to inspire me. (It also gives me more of a sense of being a member of a Sangha.) It makes it feel more "real" (for lack of a better term). If that means I still have my training wheels on, then, I still have my training wheels on.

Re: save the zen hall!

Originally Posted by CharlesC

Sorry, I don't get the "we're all sitting together regardless of time or place" point of view. I've found there is a huge difference between sitting alone and sitting in a group. For me sitting live in the zen hall with other people comes somewhere in-between.

:Charles

Hi
there are plenty of differences and of course there are many similarities too, no? doesn't Have to be mystical and farout to be experienced. We do it all the time - we feel close to those we know and love despite distance, time or even death. Yes to be reach of another being chnges our interaction and behavior. Some things ( a hug, an understanding smile, etc) are easier understood at that moment of exchange , beyond that moment we only have the memoy of the way we felt it. Then there isn't much difference between what was and what we imagined.

Anywho sorry for the O/T. Glad to see lots of folks willing to join you in sitting on cam Bob. I will too when ever I'm back home. See the zen hall was not in need of saving.

Gassho, digital representation of some person named Dirk who goes by Shohei when corresponding on this forum

Re: save the zen hall!

Originally Posted by rculver

For me, the zen-hall helps to motivate me and to inspire me. (It also gives me more of a sense of being a member of a Sangha.) It makes it feel more "real" (for lack of a better term). If that means I still have my training wheels on, then, I still have my training wheels on.

Well said...I've always been under the impression we never really take the training wheels off. Always beginning, every day, every minute.

Re: save the zen hall!

Re: save the zen hall!

I'm on lunch/free period right now.

The Zen hall is great. At first it seems like this weird thing (cameras and stuff, "people watching me") :shock: , but after you sit some Zazen it's all gravy. Just drop the cameras and so on. It's good to see people and practice.

Re: save the zen hall!

Roky, "If you sit there, they will come. " : )

Undo, I think Roky's point is that when you set the schedule for your own personal timezone then all you have to do is check the schedule and you will know the proper time to sit with anyone who is scheduled. It will do the coordinating for us.

For instance, if roky and ron decide to sit at 5:30am their time. When you go check the schedule you will just see the block with their name, and your time next to it. So you just sit at the time shown on your schedule.

Will, damn you sit for long periods. Was nice to sit with you the past two days though.

Re: save the zen hall!

Hello Dave

and thanks for the explanation. I understand the schedule will update to a local time. I find the problem occurs if we want to arrange to sit. If you and I wanted to sit and I said I'm free at 15:00 CET today, you might not know what time that is unless I book it in the schedule. Once booked it can't be cancelled. If you say can we make it an our later we will have to book twice. If at the beginning I said are you free at 15:00 UTC you will know what time that if locally without the schedule.
For other sittings for special occasions, a list of different times zones has to be given and we work out our local time from there. If we used one time zone we will quickly just know the conversion to our local time zone.

Re: save the zen hall!

undo -- i understand what you're saying - utc is the language to use when people in very different time zones want to set up a sit together -- if you and i, for instance, want to set up a joint sit, we would better do it using utc

Re: save the zen hall!

While sitting does one position one's eyes so that one observes others also sitting?

No no no. We sit, with eyes half (or 1/3 or 2/3) open, normally focused, but seeing everything and nothing in particular (meaning, not thinking about what we are seeing.)...**

HOWEVER, our eyes should be fixed (looking slightly downward about 30 degrees) on the wall in front of us (if facing the wall), on the blank floor a few feet in front of us (also looking downward about 30 or 60 degrees) if facing into the room.

The purposes of the Zen Hall may be to know that people are there, for those who wish that. But then, drop the people from mind ... and everybody and everything in the world too from mind.

When I attend a Zazen sitting in a bricks and mortar building, I am not thinking or looking at even the fellow sitting next to me ... even as I may be aware of his/her presence on some level. Whether I see the person out of the corner of my eye, or do not see her, should make no difference.

So, NO, do not intentionally position yourself to observe the others. See the wall or the floor, then even forget about that.

Gassho, Jundo

** Meaning, you may have a "table" in your field of vision, but do not get tangled in thought about it. Do not say "I am looking at a table, nice table, I really must buy a new table cloth, then I can invite my friend for dinner, I like my friend, I wonder what he wants for dinner, etc. etc. etc. "

Re: save the zen hall!

Originally Posted by chugai

Back when you're talks and sits were fully recorded I would turn away when you rang the bell.

Actually, I turn away from me too when the bell rings ... or perhaps I might say that I would take "the backward step that turns the light and shines it inward" (a little Fukanzazengi reference there, although actually a description of "silent illumination" used in China long before that)

But what do you mean "Back when you're talks and sits were fully recorded"? Last I checked, I still sit online. :wink: (You mean before Youtube put the 10 minute time limit on the length of the video?)

Re: save the zen hall!

Hi all,

I was thinking about the zen hall today and realized that one reason I often don't sit on camera is that, as a bit of a hyperactive fellow, I can move around on occasion. I figured this might be distracting, even if someone has their screen visible using only their peripheral vision. In most cases I settle down after about 5 minutes or so but every so often I'm a bit mobile and attempting to stay still just has the opposite effect. If no one would find this annoying I'd be happy to sit more with the camera on as well as putting it further away from me to minimize any distraction.

Let me know as I'd like to sit with folks, but didn't want to do anything that would be detrimental to others' sitting.

Re: save the zen hall!

In the zen hall I sit facing the wall my computer behind me. Sound is off ( and I hope the mic is too ! If not all apologies for my nose whistle, clearing my throat, baby cries, cat calls and the tv blaring) so in my case Dosho, you coul dance a jig and I'd be none the wiser

I sit this way in the zen hall after thinking it through some I figured it wasn't nessacary for me to have added Anticipation of a distraction of some sort & no one needs to see this mug.

retreats and stuff with more going on I play follow the leader and so I position the computer just off to the side and infrontso that with a quick glance I can see any movement if need be.

Gassho, Shohei

ps- won't make Wednesdays 2 hr sit only inet here is 2 bars of edge cellular network and this iPhone.

Re: save the zen hall!

hey dave -- my computers are doing ok, even the laptop -- i use the zen hall as a way to connect to others, kind of like some use posting -- so if someones signed up, sometimes i'll jump in with the camera -- but if nobody else is sitting in the hall, i may turn the computer off, cause i really am partial to silence(comes from desert sits), and the computers a bit old and noisy

had some trouble today though, not with the zen hall, but with jundo live on ustream -- was in and out the whole session, no matter which computer i used -- screwed up the chanting, but i got it working in time for the sit

its great to see so many folks using the hall -- in the physical world, i'm pretty isolated, when it comes to my practice -- cape vincent, and why arizona are not big into zen --so strange that simply being in the moment has become a "weirdo" activity -- but whats that saying, "when the whole world's insane, acting sanely seems crazy"?

and this is not to detract from how great my neighbors are, they're wonderful, mostly -- but if they only knew what i was doing -- just sitting!! -- how odd

Re: save the zen hall!

thanks dosho -- i've always felt welcome -- i'm more in a "sit down and shut up" phase -- and all the great books on my shelves are just gathering dust now -- maybe it'll pass -- and then you'll wish i was still sitting down and shutting up :lol:

hey ron, i was in there with you this morning, but had to use the old laptop, out in the boat in the backyard, as my middle daughter is visiting for a while(wish it was permanent) -- but if you see me signed up, i'm sitting