Sayaka was an interesting character. I don't think she deserves most of the dislike she gets, most of which comes from people who didn't watch the show as it was airing. I think the problem for them is that after episode three until the becomes a witch, the show might as well be called Sayaka Magica, because everything in the plot is driven by her and Madoka is just a bystander - I eventhink this is a point either Urobochi or Shinbou, or someone else involved in the production made.

The main off-putting thing about her deep insecurity. She sees herself as a mediocre person, a sidekick (which she kind of is) is isn't meant to hold the spotlight, so she reveres a person with real talent like Kamijou and is willing to make absurd sacrifices for him because of it. This is also what makes her jump in line in front of Madoka and become a magical girl, in spite of the fact that she knew how dangerous it was, having seen Mami die in front of her - she wanted to be in the spotlight for once.

Now, this is where you reach an interesting point about Sayaka that goes back to Japanese culture. I remember that when she found out that her soul gem actual contained her "soul" (though what Kyubey describes as a soul couldn't really be called such under any philosophical or religious system I know us) and her body wasn't self animated, she freaked out and felt she wasn't fit to pursue Kamijou anymore because she was a "zombie", a lot of us scoffed. But this has to do with the Buddhist concept of kegare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kegare) which associates anything to do with death with defilement, and not just in the sense of sanitation, but a spiritual defilement. This sort of attitude is much less pronounced in the West, or at least in Protestant or formerly Protestant countries where mind-body dualism is much more deeply engrained in our consciousness, this is not such a big deal because the body is just an vessel for the soul in the first place.

Sayaka could also seem self-righteous and there were plenty of times where she was rude or awful to Madoka for not becoming a magical girl herself. Or when she refused Kyouko's apple, it was clear she was looking down on her, not just refusing it because it was stolen.

I think her positive or at least sympathetic characteristic is her, how do I say, her humanness. Sayaka cares about other people to a fault but she can also be selfish. She wants to be loved and she wants to be recognized, but something always seems to go wrong for her. You can't help but at least feel bad for her, and admire her for struggling as long as she did, and for ultimately sacrificing herself for Kamijou's future, and in a truly selfless way the second time, expecting nothing in return..

Sayaka may not be the most likeable character in the series, but she is complex and human in a way many of the other characters are not (i.e. Madoka, and to an extent Homura, who is able to keep enduring endless emotional torture to a point where most people would have given up)

Sayaka is like the little mermaid – not Disney’s sanitised pabulum, but instead Andersen’s raw, cruel original without the happy ending he clumsily tacked on later. Indeed, we see Sayaka’s witch with a mermaid’s tail, and during the conversation between Kyouko and Madoka in episode 9 the day after their first encounter with Sayaka’s witch we see (at least in the BD version) mermaid and unicorn wind chimes hung together, representing Sayaka and Kyouko. The little mermaid bargains with a witch for the chance to gain both love and a soul, but Sayaka (unknowingly) gives up her soul for love and becomes a witch. Just as the whole Madoka story subverts one genre, so this tragic pericope subverts yet another.

Yes, Sayaka was a pain, but Kyouko had come to love her (interpret that how you will), and was willing to try anything to somehow get her soul gem back. In the final confrontation between Sayaka’s witch and Kyouko in episode 9, the imagery with their colours, red for Kyouko and blue for Sayaka, is astonishing – they are depicted almost as twins sharing a womb. Kyouko tries to embrace Sayaka but she disappears, and then the colours become the red and “blue” of arterial and venous blood as the twins symbolically “miscarry” in a haemorrhage pouring out between Kyouko’s legs. I don’t know who specifically was responsible for that scene, but it has a savage brilliance stamped all over it.

Yes, very good. Sayaka felt like a real human being, more than other megucas. Mami and Madoka too, but the first one bit the dust before too much characterization. Homura feels the most unrealistic out of them.

>http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dame+japanese&l=1#seen>Japanese (language): Why does my Japanese girlfriend say "dame, dame" when she's experiencing sexual pleasure?>I understand "da me" to mean "No" or "stop" >However, when I'm fooling around with my Japanese girlfriend and she gets really turned on from sex, she always says "dame, dame." >She repeats it many times during sex when she is really really passionate. She tells me that she's not saying "stop" but she can't explain the meaning of it. She says that "dame" can sometimes mean "yes" even if it usually means "no." Unfortunately, her English isn't good enough to really explain this point any better. Can anyone help?

Yes, yes. I say my good friends, we must certainly do something about that time-changing harlot Homura. The rapscallion went too far with her enslavement of the noble and heroic QB! Why, I'd say he's more than deserving of a chance to put that old girl down for good, yes sir!

>>100921314
It would be interesting if as a result of being submitted to Homura's will for so long they start to secretly develop emotions, mostly of hate.
Just imagine after everything is back to normal (somehow) and it seems like everyone is getting their happy ending (somehow) this assholes decide to throw a tantrum. They knowing the nature of "wish-granting" better than anyone... holy hell.

>>100922158
From the looks of it, Homura has already forced emotions upon them, either by reprogramming them directly or driving them mad somehow (since emotions are considered a mental disorder among their progenitor species), perhaps by destroying their entire civilization out of spite and making them watch.

>>100922325>>100922158>The Incubators realize it's not worth saving the universe if it's full of bitches like Homura, so they come up with a plan to just destroy it and make their own universe to live in alone>Homura fucks up once again

>>100930001>>100930179>>100930187
I swear it's going to end with her becoming walpurgisnacht, setting everything back the way it was, and they'll probably go full circle with the walpurgisnacht/gretchen hourglass symbolism

>>100931203
She didn't do anything wrong, she was acting in accordance with her wish; she could hardly be someone madoka could depend on for protection as one of madoka's completely subordinate and inferior angels, now could she?>>100931528
Mami literally murders her friends.

>>100933238
Mami and Homura are forced to mercy kill their friends, Madoka kill in self defense, Kyouko kills because it's what she has to do to survive, Sayaka kills because she's a bitch that don't like what other people say.

>>100937058
It's Madoka's fault for rewriting the universe and Homura's fault for sharing that information. The Incubators work with logic, it's stupid to use coal when someone tells you how to use fission.

>>100937448>>100937505
Well, wait, nuclear fission itself isn't necessarily explosive. It only is so when you design the apparatus that way either by purposely constructing a bomb or poorly designing a reactor.

>>100937533>>100937448
And it will blow up in HER face even harder and more destructive when she learns the consequences of messing with the entities that were kind and generous enough to enable her to reach that power in the first place.

>>100938093
Isn't she already at that all-powerful point though?
Her love-colored magic comes from her hope, her pain, and her suffering. So just by being in her own labyrinth, living in her own personal hell which gives her despair, while fighting for Madoka's happiness which gives her hope, hasn't she turned herself into a perpetual energy source, thus becoming ridiculously powerful and solving the problem of entropy?

>>100938226
Then there was another meguca who was so beautiful and brave that even death could not stop her, and she continued being an ally of justice as an angel and she was the best and coolest forever, and her name was Miki Sayaka.

>>100920208
If you think the waifu wars are bad now, these are just small skirmishes compared what that would cause. Anons killing Anons, Sayakafags hanging military age Homurafags from lampposts, mass graves of Sayakafags after mass executions. Puella Magi Madoka Magica is the Yugoslavia of anime.

>>100940367>The Mermaid Witch. Once dreamt of love. The Law of the Cycle split off some of its souls and sent them to the earth. One of them took the form of Sweets. Another took on the form of a mermaid. And the Law of Cycles itself descended upon the surface, more reverently than the morning dew. Her form was like that of a magical girl who once was.

There is no heaven, it's just being absorbed into Madoka and becoming her servant. It's really likely that a Madoka-less Law of Cycles would be dangerous.

>>100940553
if only there was a pic of madohomu in a hospital room. homura leaning over above a weak but proud madoka with a newborn daughteru sleeping peacefully in her arms with tears of joy streaming down their faces.

>>100940702
Because the witch book was written whimsically and referred to Madoka as a heavenly being, if there were an afterlife it would at least imply so rather than keep mentioning how the witches were separated from the cycle by the cycle itself.

>>100941211
The blast that took out Gretchen just so happened to blow up the entire universe and reset everything. It's very possible that Madoka just fused with it like the other magical girls have.

>>100941444>if there were an afterlife it would at least imply so rather than keep mentioning how the witches were separated from the cycle by the cycle itself.
I'm not following this at all. Yes, they're all part of the Law of the Cycle, but how does that imply that there's not some sort of afterlife?

>>100941809
Because there is no evidence at all to say there is, while there are hints and fancy language to say there isn't. Neither Sayaka nor Nagisa ever mention anything about the Law of Cycles other than they're a part of it and they have a mission. They barely even interact with each other as well, the only thing they have in common is what Madoka wanted them to do.

>>100942157>Because there is no evidence at all to say there is
Except the fact that they specifically refer to volunteering for the mission, implying that there is something they could be doing otherwise. I mean really, the fact that souls continue to exist after death should imply that an afterlife exists in the absence of any actual evidence to the contrary, in my mind.

>>100942157>Because there is no evidence at all to say there is
Madoka created a virtual space when talking to Mami and Kyouko, Madoka tells Sayaka they have to go "somewhere", the fact that she asked for volunteers, the simple fact that their souls exist after death.

I think what Law of Cycles anon is trying to say is that there isn't a physical afterlife where everyone is able to shake hands and hug and do yuri things. Rather, they all attain enlightenment and join Madoka within the Law of Cycles as omnipresent concepts. The exception to this is when purifying girls and saving them, which is why Sayaka and Nagisa are so eager to return, because they had still had some ties to the mortal world and wanted to get some final peace from Kyouko and Mami respectively. It's also why Homura makes such a big deal about Madoka's sacrifice, because she can't understand the value of nirvana. She only values the happiness of the mortal word.

>>100942695
Where have you been, anon?
http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Runes:The_Rebellion_Story
By the way, Eternal Feminine is basically the concept that Goethe's Gretchen embodies, as the pure-hearted maiden who believes in the goodness in Faust's heart. When Faust is meant to fall into hell as per contract with Mephistopheles, Gretchen saves him and pulls him up to heaven.

>>100943074
Maybe, who knows? Nothing is confirmed.
We do know that Mami tells Madoka that she will be unable to be perceived by anyone if she goes through with this and becomes the Law of Cycles, and that when girls die they join the Law of Cycles. I'm just offering another interpretation, not saying that mine proves others wrong.

>>100943186
Good, that's a weight off my shoulders.>>100943220
Anon, I hate to break it to you, but Rebellion isn't a stand-alone story. It's actually the newest installment to a popular TV series that aired three years ago now. You should probably get to watching it.

>>100943317
He has a point actually, there's no real reason for Nagisa to care about Mami just because she killed her as a witch once. All of their actual interaction has to have been inside Homura's barrier.

>>100943317
And maybe you need to not being an idiot, Nagisa never met a Mami in the world that Madoka created and when she ascended to Valhalla she don't won any of her memory from past lives (which I think is bullshit but whatever).

>>100943074
Wasn't that during the recreation of the new universe during the implementation of her wish? She's able to talk with Mami and Kyouko, show Sayaka the fruits of her wish, and space hug Homura. However, after the space hug, she "has to go" even though Homura doesn't want her to go.

>>100943233
Mami asks her if she truly understands, and Madoka replies "I think so". She goes on to say she just knows it'll work out, or something. Madoka wasn't even absolutely sure of herself, but it's not like she can just back out and give in to despair.

>>100943562
No need to involve your ego anon. It makes you look silly when you're wrong. When you express your thoughts and feelings in a less hostile manner, people are able to correct you gently without everything devolving into personal battles where each side is more concerned with proving each other wrong than actually discovering the truth.

>>100943947>Everyone who disagrees with me is the same person!
That said, I don't think what he's saying has the nuance that you're trying to project onto it. We all know that Madokami defeats her own despair and moves on just like every other girl in the law of cycles.

Funny how the way Homura apologists mostly work is by attacking Madoka's actions speculating that it's not as good as the series implies or that she regretted her actions despite stating outright that she had full confidence in what she was doing as a goddess.

Why don't they just admit Homura fucked up? I mean she considers herself a devil for a reason.

>>100944334>how necessary it was that Tatsuya remembered.
He doesn't remember anything. He knows about Madoka because Urobuchi is presenting the idea that little kids can see supernatural shit. He confirms this in Episode 12's commentary. >It did nothing to help Homura move on
As Shinbo points out, the series is a stand-alone work and you're free to interpret it as you wish without being influenced by Rebellion. That said, seeing Tatsuya and Junko helps inspire Homura to keep on fighting for the world Madoka wanted to protect, like she says so herself. At no point does she say, "I'm cool with Madoka being gone forever, and I don't miss her or anything." No, she wants to fight for the world. In fact, I believe she hasn't lost sight of that goal post-Rebellion, which is why she keeps QB at her side and declares her intention to destroy the wraiths.

>>100944629>>100944634
And you're projecting your idea of the afterlife onto the Madoka universe without any canon proof of what you want to be true.
Where is your proof that the afterlife is really a Valhalla-like existence where everyone has bodies and can interact together? Consider again what Mami says, please.

>>100944771
First, your "us vs. them" mentality is fallacious. Everyone who disagrees with you is not a hivemind.
Second, you're using a straw man. When has anyone ever said that Madoka regretted her actions? Also, they are as good as the series implies. In Homura's words, "This may be a world without salvation and where nothing but sadness and hatred repeat, but it's still a places she once tried to protect."
Third, how do you know Homura has 'fucked up'? As Junko says, you can't always get a happy ending by doing what's right. Sometimes someone has to be in the wrong to balance out someone else's need to be in the right. They have to make a mistake for that person. Dualism and all that.
Also, if you've ever familiarized yourself with archetypes and tropes of yuri anime, dualism is very, very common.
Oh, and the series isn't over, so we don't actually know what the results of Homura's actions are.

>>100944983
Even if they are a collective entity centered around Madokami, they seem to still retain a substantial amount of independence. I mean compare them to say the loyal angels of God. When Micheal the Archangel comes down he has no worldly concerns; he just does what God sent him down to do. Now look at Sayaka/Nagisa, they volunteer partly because they have unfinished business on earth, namely cheese and Kyoko. Then of course there is the fact that they state they volunteered for this job.

Even if they don't have a form in Madokami, they seem to have an independent soul that has personal desires.

>>100945094
As another anon said, this happens in the old universe before the Law of Cycles is even created, so it's not entirely certain what Madokami's capabilities are or that just because she's capable of doing something, she will do it. Again, you're just projecting your own idea of the afterlife onto the girls, because we are never shown or told how the afterlife functions. I am completely open to the prospect of an afterlife paradise, but I'm not asking for fanon here, I'm asking for proof to back up your claims.

>>100945666>I'm not asking for fanon here
Yes, you are. Since there is no direct evidence of the existence or non-existence of yuri valhalla, we are forced to speculate about it based on the various hints we are given.

>>100945904>Yes, you are. Since there is no direct evidence of the existence or non-existence of yuri valhalla, we are forced to speculate about it based on the various hints we are given.

There's more evidence that it exists given the fact that the messengers of Madokami weren't just blindly loyal servants to their goddess. Sayaka and Nagisa were independent souls who could miss worldly things they left behind like cheese and Kyoko; who also volunteered to come down to see those things one more time.

All I can point to is that it's unlikely from looking at the guide book, closely examining Madoka's statements and actions in episode 12, and from how the characters never allude to such a place.

Again, sacrifice, bittersweet ending. Not a perfect victory where Madoka gets infinite power, but I guess I can't really prove that. Maybe she wanted to leave her family and friends on earth to hang out in heaven with all the cool historical megucas.

>>100945823
Defensive listening sure is fun, isn't it anon?>I am completely open to the prospect of an afterlife paradise>>100945904
No I'm not--well-thought fanon is something that doesn't contradict the canon, but often doesn't have actual basis. For instance, portraying Homura as having hobbies. >>100946041
Why did they have worldly regrets if they really do have a paradise? If Mami's room is proof of anything, why doesn't Madoka just create cheese for Nagisa to eat? The notion isn't without its seams.

>>100946115
Because Mami and Kyouko are dead by that time. When they die, their souls disappear forever.
Mami giving the notebook back makes no sense at all, Madoka left it in Mami's apartment after Mami died.

>>100946041
Right, I agree. I'm just saying that in the absence of a yuri valhalla OVA or something (or the opposite, some material that illustrates them only gaining an individual consciousness after they "split off" or whatever), nothing is concrete.

>>100946350>Why did they have worldly regrets if they really do have a paradise?
It doesn't necessarily have to be a "paradise", just a probably fairly pleasant place where they exist after death. Sayaka's makes sense because she can't interact with Kyouko as long as Kyouko's alive. Nagisa's could be explained as spirit cheese not being as good as genuine cheese, and/or it's not as fun when you don't have a real body to eat it with.

>>100946596
The space hug was during the reformation of the universe, she could perceive all that because she was a time traveler or whatever. Madoka basically says that they'll meet again once Homura dies and joins her.

>>100946310>Maybe she wanted to leave her family and friends on earth to hang out in heaven with all the cool historical megucas.

Trying to make Madoka appear selfish? Just like a Homufaggot to do that. The point is she used her power to allow magical girls to have a happy afterlife; it wasn't part of the voiced wish-but considering her strength she could make it so by her own will. Of course it had a cost, Rebellion shows that she'd only leave her family and friends if it meant saving a group of humanity that has been targeted to be pushed into despair by amoral aliens.

>>100946604
This is a good point, I mean although most of the time human Madoka is practically saintly in her selflessness she's still human and thus I wouldn't hold it against her that even as a goddess she can't generate a heaven that makes the human soul simply fall in awe, total happiness, and worship like say the biblical God.

>>100947105
You know how it disproves what you said, which is why you tried to discredit it with [citation needed].
Again, there's no proof that there isn't a yurivalhalla. The only point being made is that Mami's room doesn't in any way imply the presence of an afterlife and so it isn't canon.

>>100946750
No. I'm implying that if she had so much power to create another entire heavenly paradise, she could do more than give Homura a ribbon.

Obviously she doesn't have that power, she isn't intentionally leaving everyone to play in yuri valhalla, she has no choice but to fulfill her wish and her duty as the new truth guiding the new world.

>>100946604
I don't think anyone is arguing that souls exist, just that it's not a heavenly paradise. I imagine being a part of the law of cycles isn't terrible, but it's not some bastion of infinite happiness and freedom as some would like to present it as.

Just a place where souls go to help service the order of the universe as part of the law of cycles.