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Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

No many players in the current NBA are "smashmouth" no current teams in the NBA are "smashmouth", to me there is not need to declare that a team is "smashmouth", why not let their play do the talking instead of repeating non stop how "smashmouth" they are? That's the part that grinds my gears.

I love the grinds my gears reference...

But you do hear all coaches talking about their teams playing style... We are just the only ones claiming smashmouth...

And I think you are taking the wrong impression from the term smashmouth in general... Smashmouth is not literally "We're gonna smash your mouths!"... Ex. Rodman

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

As you said "to me", others don't view it that way. I agree with you btw but there were posters last year who had a problem with it as well and for a variety of reasons.

Also while nobody here has brought it up I do think Frank's use of the term as often as he does has contributed a little to the league wide perception that we are arrogant and cocky. I think the entire NBA is nuts about that myself but I do think some of it stems from Franks style of talking.

I could care less what the rest of the league thinks of us, as long as our reputation doesn't change the way refs call our games. Unless that becomes an issue, I will unabashedly embrace smash mouth.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

Well considering one is supposed to in theory be a non contact sport I could see where people might get that impression.

So thuggish doesn't apply in football but yes in basketball as associated to smashmouth? I have not problems with any thuggish implication for Pacers. More concerned about whether they can back up the image created. I'm not sure they have so far.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

Do you remember playing pick-up ball as a kid? Sometimes you played against dirty players and just wanted to understandably pop them in the mouth. But other times, you played against guys that were just plain tough. They were masters of gamesmanship. They bellied up to you and made you work for everything. They knew when to give you that little nudge before going up for the rebound or just before that pass was coming to you into the post. You hated playing against them and probably felt like popping them too before the day was done. But not because they played dirty. They were just tough-minded tough-nosed physical players who, more often than not, could make you have to work much harder than you really wanted to work. In short, they could usually impose their will on you.

That is really what Vogel means by "smash mouth". That's a team that is physically on the edge, but within the rules, that is capable of imposing it's will on the opposition.

Smash mouth means nothing different today than it did 20 years ago. The only thing that is different are the rules of the game that happen to define it's limits.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

In this case, I think it's an illogical position to take. (To choose a definition other than the one used by the guy who brought it up in the first place)

Judge something as it is presented, defined and/or intended.
To arbitrarily redefine the term in this context is pointless because then you're not talking about reality anymore.

That's only if you’re willing to allow someone else to define an action/object/etc.

Just because I start a conversation calling a peach an apple doesn't mean that everyone is obligated to follow my definition. Yes this is one of those cases of being absurd to demonstrate absurdity that you don't like but play along.

Frank Vogel, as much as I love him, does not get to be the final arbiter of the definition of Smash mouth basketball. That is up to anyone’s personal interpretation.

Had Frank just said "we're going to play inside out, look to take good shots and play hard every play" then your point would be more valid, but he chose to give it a name. It just so happens that it is a name that has been used in the past in several different ways and in several different sports.

BTW I want to say again, I love the phrase smash mouth basketball & I have zero problem with them using it as long as they are actually doing it. By Vnzla's standard, admittedly they are not, but this is the newer kinder gentler NBA so I think by today's standards they probably are.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

Do you remember playing pick-up ball as a kid? Sometimes you played against dirty players and just wanted to understandably pop them in the mouth. But other times, you played against guys that were just plain tough. They were masters of gamesmanship. They bellied up to you and made you work for everything. They knew when to give you that little nudge before going up for the rebound or just before that pass was coming to you into the post. You hated playing against them and probably felt like popping them too before the day was done. But not because they played dirty. They were just tough-minded tough-nosed physical players who, more often than not, could make you have to work much harder than you really wanted to work. In short, they could usually impose their will on you.

That is really what Vogel means by "smash mouth". That's a team that is physically on the edge, but within the rules, that is capable of imposing it's will on the opposition.

Smash mouth means nothing different today than it did 20 years ago. The only thing that is different are the rules of the game that happen to define it's limits.

This is what I think Vogel means and it's how I take it. I don't mind the use of the phrase or trying to coach the team to be that way. I think, in general, that's how we play. We're going to make the other team work for it, and we've got the muscle to make it work.

That said, the term is definitely teetering on being overused. It's becoming empty rhetoric, and that's what getting annoying.

More to the point of the OP -- football pads during practice to work on setting good, hard screens as a direct result of something Coach V noted during the playoffs as a weakness? Yes, please. This is a great bit of coaching, and it's very encouraging to me. We may be returning the same starting five, but it doesn't mean we're content with how we played.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

Tyler should have excelled at that drill. This is the third time in a week I have mentioned Tyler's screening. If he learns how to set a screen the way it is meant to be set, then his effectiveness will go up ten fold offensively.

Why would somebody who generally really sucks at setting a screen excel in doing so just because he has some pads on? I bet they had to yell at Tyler to quit leaving the screen before the contact is made.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

When I think about "smashmouth" I think about the Knicks of the 90's, the Detroit Pistons of the 90's, the Pacers don't have a Rodman, they don't have a Mason, the toughest guy they have on paper and because he is a boxer off the court for the Pacers is David West, how many times have you see him pulling a Rodman?

Then the next toughest person and the originator of "smashmouth" in Tyler can't even play normal basketball because he has been told that "smashmouth" is great and he should play "smashmouth" at all times, at least that's what I hear from Vogel.

By a "myth" I mean that with this Pacers personal I don't really see anybody that intimidates anybody, making the "smashmouth" thing just talk, you can talk about "smashmouth" and playing "tough" all you want but when you don't have the personal all that becomes air.

Lets also not forget that with this new NBA playing "smashmouth" could get players suspended or ejected making the "smashmouth" philosophy a thing of the pass and a myth.

I have a completely different feeling on " smashmouth " i guess. I think Smashmouth is more then just a physical thing. I think it's a mentality too. You dont have to clobber someone to be smashmouth. Danny Granger getting in Lebrons face was smashmouth ( i'll explain why in another paragraph. I think its the only equalizer. I think this league has been soft for so many years now. The NBA is ready for a really rough and physical team that doesnt bow down to the superteam. I think the fans, not just Pacers fans, are waiting for a team to do this. The thing about these superteams are that they're so soft. Lebron, Wade, Bosh? Howard, Nash, Kobe ( Kobe is smashmouth ), Chandler, Melo, Amare? Come on.

When Danny Granger got up into Lebrons face, it wasnt just about intimidating. It was also about not accepting whats become acceptable. Which is, King James and crew running rough shot on everyone. It was about the lack of respect our team and city as a whole continues to get, especially with this basketball team, despite having a great team and a great year last season. It was about just letting the world know that we WILL matter, whether you like it or not. It was about " Yah, you are the heavy favorites to win the title. You are the best player in the NBA. We are the small town market who's suppose to get stomped. We are so insignificant to the most basketball aficionados and experts, that we were'nt even on national television, despite winning 42 of 62 games, but WE WILL MATTER. WE WILL HAVE YOUR RESPECT. "

Incase you havent notices, Lebron, Wade, Bosh...They are suppose to win the next few titles. In everyone's minds, we dont exisist in there world. We dont matter. Smashmouth isnt just about throwing shoulders. It's about making people give a damn when they step into our building. When they step on the same court. These teams know they have more talent. They know they're suppose to win. However, they wont know whether they'll be long for a season, or series after they step off the court with us. Because we're going to hustle for every ball, we're gunna bang. We wont back down. Thats smashmouth. It's not about throwing people around and hurting people. It's simply the only way, short of having 3 superstars, that people WILL RESPECT US. And its also the equalizer because we have really good talent. We may not have 3 superstars, but we have great players. This is one of the most talented teams in Pacers history to be quite honest. It might be scewed a bit, because when you hold this team to the 3 superstar teams, they dont measure on paper, but on the court, they will because they're going to play harder, tougher and they wont bow down to the norm. Which is, Lebron and Co. being penciled in for the next few titles.

And one last thing. You can play smashmouth and be talented team and draft good and run an excellent organization. And i have a firm belief as a life long Pacer fan, that Frank Vogel is going to take this team to an NBA Finals and eventually a title. I think he's 2 steps ahead of everyone else. It's just tough for some of us on here to realize this, because all we see now is these Superstar-laden teams.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

This thread has done more to make the phrase annoying than anything Frank Vogel, the media, other teams, other players, or anything else has said or done.

Amen.

"Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

"Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire"Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others." - William Greider

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

When Danny Granger got up into Lebrons face, it wasnt just about intimidating. It was also about not accepting whats become acceptable. Which is, King James and crew running rough shot on everyone. It was about the lack of respect our team and city as a whole continues to get, especially with this basketball team, despite having a great team and a great year last season. It was about just letting the world know that we WILL matter, whether you like it or not. It was about " Yah, you are the heavy favorites to win the title. You are the best player in the NBA. We are the small town market who's suppose to get stomped. We are so insignificant to the most basketball aficionados and experts, that we were'nt even on national television, despite winning 42 of 62 games, but WE WILL MATTER. WE WILL HAVE YOUR RESPECT. "

Incase you havent notices, Lebron, Wade, Bosh...They are suppose to win the next few titles. In everyone's minds, we dont exisist in there world. We dont matter. Smashmouth isnt just about throwing shoulders. It's about making people give a damn when they step into our building. When they step on the same court. These teams know they have more talent. They know they're suppose to win. However, they wont know whether they'll be long for a season, or series after they step off the court with us. Because we're going to hustle for every ball, we're gunna bang. We wont back down. Thats smashmouth. It's not about throwing people around and hurting people. It's simply the only way, short of having 3 superstars, that people WILL RESPECT US. And its also the equalizer because we have really good talent. We may not have 3 superstars, but we have great players. This is one of the most talented teams in Pacers history to be quite honest. It might be scewed a bit, because when you hold this team to the 3 superstar teams, they dont measure on paper, but on the court, they will because they're going to play harder, tougher and they wont bow down to the norm. Which is, Lebron and Co. being penciled in for the next few titles.

And one last thing. You can play smashmouth and be talented team and draft good and run an excellent organization. And i have a firm belief as a life long Pacer fan, that Frank Vogel is going to take this team to an NBA Finals and eventually a title. I think he's 2 steps ahead of everyone else. It's just tough for some of us on here to realize this, because all we see now is these Superstar-laden teams.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

Targeting "physical" players gets you Tyler, and it's just as flawed as trying to get a bunch of similar guys (Isiah's Quick), or shooters, lengthy teams, all quick guys, etc. It's the idea of falling in love with one aspect of the game. And in the case of physical play it's not really in the top 5 of skills that contribute to winning, and worse yet it's one of the easiest for the refs to remove from the game via calling tight fouls.

Everyone loves the idea of a tough team, and certainly you need a level of toughness. But simply tough as an identity doesn't cut it in basketball. Given the choice I'd rather have a team of pure shooters, and to emphasize that look at West vs Tyler. Tyler is certainly more "physical", often out of control, but West has pure post scoring skills mixed with enough toughness to stand tall.

Smashmouth implies an idea of focus on physical play reminiscent of the mid-90s Cavs that aped the Knicks style of hard fouling, slow down defense. It won a tiny bit but mostly it resulted in poor, very ugly basketball.

Setting a firm screen isn't "smashmouth", it's fundamental basketball. Having 5 specialists that each play their position very well without being a superstar is fundamental basketball. That's the Pacers true identity and what many people have in mind when they think of items like clean, hard screens held to completion. Get to a spot in time, establish a good position, hold your base, and keep your arms down. That's not smashmouth, it's just the right way to execute that aspect of basketball.

And the biggest irony of all of this is that most fans think of Tyler as the most smashmouth player on the team and he's guilty of the absolute worst picks and screens on the team. His entire PnPop style is to NOT ENGAGE with the defender in order to better come clear for the FGA look, leaving the ball handler in a tough double team much of the time.

You do need to be tough, and given players of similar skills you would prefer the tougher of the two. But you also want the quickest. You also want the one who holds his focus the best and who can maintain crisp intensity and attention to the DETAILS of the game. Setting a good screen, running crisply off of those screens, keeping in range of your man to avoid being caught in a spacing trick, these are the details that win games. That's NOT smashmouth, and a lot of physical guys don't really do these things well and consistently anyway.

They just turn to hard fouls when they struggle rather than chucking up bad shots or overdribbling.