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DO you think it is possible for me to make it to Juliard? I just started playing about 11 months ago. I am playing things like Mozarts K.545, claire de lune, sonatina by handel in a-, and other songs at that level. My problem is it always seems like my dreams slip away because of a late start, or something because of my disadvantage.. I wonder if it is possible to compete against the greater musicians in the world with such a late start...

But one question: What do you want to do after[/b] Juilliard? That's the most important thing, IMO. Gotta take the long-term view.

You do know that a Juilliard degree isn't a guarantee of anything, yes? It's not a guarantee of a glossy performing career, or a juicy post teaching music to privileged private school children, or a career as a professor of piano at Juilliard.

Here in our downstate Rust Belt public school system, my daughter's Middle School band director has a degree from Juilliard. I have no idea whether she got more money from the school board because of it, but I seriously doubt it.

Doubtful. Schools tend to pay based on degree or hours towards a degree. They usually don't care where the degree came from, which is why a lot of teachers go back to get Masters degrees from the cheapest/closest school they can find.

You're right about a Juilliard degree not guaranteeing anything. It's also very possible to build an academic or performing career without a degree from Juilliard, NEC, Peabody, Eastman, etc...

It's all about hard work and initiative. The name on the diploma can help, but not as much as you might think.

The music world these days is such that people will respect degrees from a wide range of institutions. Juilliard does not have a monopoly on excellence. It's an excellent school, but it's not the only one, and there are more excellent schools out there today than there were 20 or even 10 years ago.

Also, the most important thing is the quality of education and teacher you get. If you can get the best teacher and education for you at Juilliard, then go. If you can get it at the University of Oklahoma or Florida State, then go. (And I know a few people from the likes of OU and FSU who beat Juilliard grads in academic job searches.)

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"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

Hey Chris,I don't want to sound like a gray cloud,but at 16 you would need to know at least half the Chopin Etudes,Beethoven Sonatas,Bach's Well-Tempered,and at least 2 complete Concertos to even have a chance at getting accepted into Juliard.Send for their catologue to see first hand their entrance requirements,you will be astounded.Develop your repetoire,there are other great music schools with less stringent requirements that could take a look at.Believe me,Juliard is'nt for the faint of heart.

Juilliard does not require the SAT, ACT, or Achievement tests. However, the Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) and the Test of Written English (TWE) will be required of students for whom English is not a native language. The minimum required TOEFL score is 533 for the paper-based TOEFL or a 200 for the computer-based TOEFL exam.

In addition to the general requirements and procedures for admission to The Juilliard School, please note the following:

Drama and Music candidates must be high school graduates or have earned the equivalent of a high school diploma.

Dance candidates must either be high school graduates, or have earned the equivalent of a high school diploma, or apply under the Early Admissions program. Early Admissions candidates apply during their junior year in high school and must be at least 16 years old upon matriculation. They must be highly talented, strongly endorsed by their principal teachers and school counselors, and show evidence of exceptional maturity.

Dance and Music applicants must present official transcripts of high school and college grades from all schools attended. Dance applicants must also submit a health form. Drama applicants need to submit these credentials only after their acceptance by that division.

Many departments require applicants to submit a videotape or standard cassette tape of the required audition repertoire with their application for pre-screening purposes. Please refer to the application on the Unified Application for Conservatory Admission Web site for specifics. The Admissions Office will notify applicants regarding their eligibility for a personal audition.

So you can apply under their Early Admissions program during your junior year of high school, but you'll need strong endorsements from teachers, a lot of maturity, and an audition.

Juilliard is basically a "college for performers". Is that what you had in mind?

Where I work (a fairly large public university), auditions are handled like this:

You apply to both the university and the music school.

The university makes your academic transcript and test scores available to the faculty of the music school. The faculty then hears your audition and decides whether or not to admit you. While grades and test scores might be a factor, the audition itself is the single most important deciding factor in admission decisions. Generally speaking, if the faculty is happy with your playing and you meet the minimum requirements for admission to the university, you're in.

Also, it is important to attend a major music school at some point in your academic career. It's not terribly important when or for what degree. What I often recommend to others (and what I did) is to do your undergraduate degree at a university where you won't get lost in the crowd, study with full-time faculty, and have lots of performance opportunties - then hit a major music school for your graduate degree(s). It's also cheaper that way. There's nothing wrong (or harmful to your future career) with going to Cheap State University - provided you have a good teacher and a solid educational experience.

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"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

Originally Posted By Curry: Hey Chris,I don't want to sound like a gray cloud,but at 16 you would need to know at least half the Chopin Etudes,Beethoven Sonatas,Bach's Well-Tempered,and at least 2 complete Concertos to even have a chance at getting accepted into Juliard.[/b]

I agree. Julliard is not easy to get into. I auditioned with Beethoven's Appasionata, Chopin's 4th ballade and etude op.10 no.1, and prokofiev's tocatta and I still got rejected. I also found out that out of 1654 people that applied, only 136 got accepted, which is 8.2% of the applicants!!!!

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To be a real philosopher all that is necessary is to hate some one else's type of thinking- William James

Kreisler is excatly right. The process is handled much the same in all colleges/universities. We relied (I retired a few years ago) very much on the audition, but recommendations could carry equal or even greater weight. In other words, sometimes it's who you know, and who that person knows. Not unfair at all, it's a big help in screening.

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Kreisler: The music world these days is such that people will respect degrees from a wide range of institutions. Juilliard does not have a monopoly on excellence. It's an excellent school, but it's not the only one, and there are more excellent schools out there today than there were 20 or even 10 years ago.

Absolutely true. Over the previous decades, wonderful performer/teachers have decided to teach where they want to teach, instead of scrambling for name institutions. Sometimes, this can be a small school (small liberal arts college, less pressure, great facilities, positive faculty members in a friendly environment, etc.), or a region of the country that suits the teacher.

And then afterwards, again, it's often who knows whom, in the job search.

By the way. . . if you were looking for a job now, it is about as bad as it was in the early 1980's, from what I've heard. Institutions in higher education will be declaring financial exigency, with corresponding layoffs of tenured faculty (possible) and cutbacks in full-time faculty. Oh well, by the time you finish graduate school, things should be better!

The playing was fine, but I think the problem was that I auditioned cold and didn't make any contact with the teacher that I wanted to study with (Kaplinsky). A friend of mine was accepted; he may not be the best pianist in the world in terms of consistency and technique but his communication skills (verbal and at the piano) are excellent.

What Dr. Vaga said was right on. It's not what you play or what you know; it's who you know. Plus, from what some professors who went to Julliard tell me, the quality is getting worse.

I was rejected at Eastman and Rice for the same reason - not making any contact and going in cold. My major mistake was applying to the school and not to the teacher. They asked who I wanted to study with and I said "I don't know."

DOH! I was young and stupid then.

rvaga is also correct about the current job market. I was applying for jobs two years ago and put out 8 applications, got two interviews, and took the first job I was offered. This year, there haven't been nearly as many job openings. I have a friend who is currently jobless even though she's a stronger candidate than I was two years ago. Another friend of mine is on the search committee for a piano job at a mid to low sized state university for which there were 150 applicants for the position.

Next year looks to be worse, as several states have mandated cuts at public colleges and universities. Many faculty (myself included) are hesitant to leave the positions they're in - we're holding on to what we have for dear life!

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"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

Hey Chris,I don't want to sound like a gray cloud,but at 16 you would need to know at least half the Chopin Etudes

What if you have small hands and can't even play any of them? What happens then? Will you be excused to learn them but need to learn the Beeth'vn Sonatas? Is it absolutely necessary to be able to play Chopin Etudes?

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"... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn."

All undergraduate applicants must submit a standard CD or cassette tape with the application. Current pre-college students are exempt. The tape should include only Nos. 2 and 3 from the audition repertoire. Name and address should appear on both the tape and the tape cover. The entire audition program should reach a minimum of 45 minutes. Shorter programs may be subject to approval by the piano faculty.

A prelude and fugue from The Well-Tempered Clavier or another work of Bach containing a fugue. (No transcriptions are permitted.) An entire sonata by Beethoven excluding Opp. 14, 49, and 79, or the Haydn Sonata in Eb Major, Hob. XVI:52, or the Mozart Sonata in D Major, K. 576, or one of the following Schubert sonatas: C Major, Op. 78; A Minor, Op. 143; A Minor, Op. 42; D Major, Op. 53, or one of the three posthumous sonatas, or the Wanderer Fantasie . A substantial composition by Chopin, Schumann, Brahms, Liszt, or Mendelssohn. (Etudes, nocturnes, short dances or comparable pieces are not acceptable.) A work by a representative 20th-century composer. One virtuosic etude by Bartók, Chopin, Debussy, Liszt, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, or Stravinsky.

Best thing is to build a relationship with a teacher there. Second best thing is to build a relationship with someone who has a strong relationship there -- either as a colleague or a former student of the teacher you wish to study with. Some teachers will "feed" their best students to faculty at Julliard they know. It does help to know someone.

Both Kreisler and Mathilde make excellent points in their posts. I started piano at the age of 15, and at the time thought it would be great to get into Julliard, Curtis or some other heavyweight conservatory. That was a dream. My main objective, though, was becoming a better musician, building repertoire and developing my technique. It is fine to have a dream like admission to Julliard, but the reality is there are hundreds of very good players who get rejected every year from that school alone. In other words, there is nothing wrong with working up an audition for Julliard if you and your teacher agree that you are advanced enough to handle the repertoire for the audition. Just make sure there are other schools where you audition, and don't set yourself up for major disappointment if you do not gain admission to your #1 choice. Before you even do that, you should look deep within yourself, and decide whether you have the will, inclination, dedication - oh yes - and the love for music to pursue a degree and/or a career in music. It is extremely difficult, requires a lot of hard work, and for the most part is not glamorous. Also, as was said by - I think - Mathilde, what do you want to do with a music degree?

For a time I worked for a conservatory where I saw talented musicians of yesteryear who were virtually starving -- making a subsistence level of existence. It wasn't pretty for these proud and talented people who had made a commitment to music and once toured throughout the world.

Fortunately, I've been gifted with a crippling lack of the basic building blocks for a career in music.

That is, I am a poor sight reader, can barely count, take forever to memorize a piece and am terrified of public performance.

Still, I love music (all kinds) and love playing -- so for 40 years I've stumbled forward. I've built a career elsewhere but have nurtured my love of music with a very decent piano that I might have difficulty having even with a Julliard degree.

I don't have to learn any pieces I don't want to. I can afford lessons with even the best of teachers -- attend numerous recitals and have a bountiful CD collection to listen to.

Music plays in my office all day. I know where my next meal is coming from.

I think most performers and teachers would tell you to get a diversified education to help prepare yourself for both a means of earning an income -- and a life with music -- even if it isn't in music.

Originally posted by Linda in PA:Well said, Ken. Thanks for sharing this perspective![/b]

Thanks. At the same time, I wouldn't beat anyone up who still wants to chase the rainbow. It is a gift of living.

I had a friend who was an attorney and at 40 she decided to abandon law to become a professional cellist. She nearly starved too -- with something like 5 students and a handful of performing gigs. Still, eventually, she found a way -- working at musical instrument store, students and some performing.

Still, it was great that she had a law degree and a portfolio to help her adventure.

I once ran a marathon while having pneumonia -- a stupid thing to do - but I tried to be "smart" about it -- and made it.

If you love music -- it is ok to follow your heart -- but also use your mind to make sure you have a way of making a living.

I have heard (and it makes sense) that there is FAR less financial aid available at a Conservatory than for a university education. What kind of endowment do you think they have?

To top it off, Conservatories are much more expensive, for the most part. Plus - you have to go and purchase a practice piano for your apartment, paying for the move. In New York City anyhow. You can't rely on the practice rooms, where (even at Juilliard, I was recently told by a student) the pianos are in terrible shape. Yes, they are Steinways, but so what?

Even at our State University (main campus in our town), I was scandalized to discover that music majors have to pay for their lessons - anything beyond half an hour a week. In fact, I think they even have to pay for that!! Beyond tuition!

And who wants to graduate with a massive debt from a Conservatory, with such an uncertain financial future?

Of course, if your parents are paying...

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If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee. ~Abraham Lincoln~

Ariel,I believe that most Conservatories and colleges charge for your weekly lesson in addition to your tuition.When I was an undergraduate, I also had to pay for my half-hour lesson in my minor each week.This was'nt too bad financially,since I had a full keyboard scholarship which helped pay my tuition.

I was pretty much in the same boat, so I know from personal experience that it can be done. I am a senior in High school now, but next year I will be going to be a piano performance major at the Hartt school of music. (Part of Hartford U.) It is a difficult road, but it can be done. These are some things I suggest:

1. Get your audition repertoire ready now, so you have a lot of performance experience with it by the time you get there. Learn a Beethoven sonata, a large romantic work (Like a Chopin scherzo or ballade, but not something small like a Waltz) a Bach prelude and Fugue, a modern work (Like a Debussy piece or Ligeti) and some schools, like Juilliard, will ask for an etude.

2. Play this program for an audience, since it will help tremendously.

Start practicing 6 hours a day and you have a good chance of getting into a good music school if you go to a JC first and take the transfer route for your undergrad. Continue, and Julliard for you Master's won't be too far out of reach.

my first piano teacher, who had an MM from Indiana, ended up going back to school in her 40s to get a law degree. she was sick and tired of being poor. after one year at the biggest corporate law firm in new york city, she owned a new steinway B and was treating all her starving musician friends to nights at the met opera with her season tickets.

she hated corporate law, but ultimately found her niche practicing arts law, helping artists and musicians. i've been out of touch with her now for some years, but the last time we saw each other, she couldn't be happier or more fulfilled.

i would caution against going to any conservatory straight out of high school, simply because a career in music is such a long shot, and it's important to have the skills and academic background that will give you other options. while i do not advocate using college as career training, i do think the classical liberal arts education is the solidest foundation you can lay for any career.

learning how to read, write, speak, and think critically are invaluable no matter what your future career.

also, why julliard? there are other conservatories that will give you as solid a musical foundation but aren't so stressful. i went to mannes college and it was a lovely place full of great cameraderie--not killer competition--with peers.

having said all that, if your heart is set on an undergrad degree from julliard, then go for it! get honest feedback on your playing, and then get to work on fixing what needs to be fixed.

In case you're interested in the academic job thing, I can tell you that the top 2 things that get people jobs are:

1) Good recommendations2) Teaching ability and experience

Performance ability is important, but it's definitely in 3rd place.

It also helps to be able to communicate effectively both verbally and in writing. It also helps to have connections. (Not with the place you want a job, but in the music world in general.)

One of our faculty members will probably retire in 5 years, I'll look you up.

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Originally posted by Brendan:Well, I have 5 years or so before I have to start looking, so hopefully things will turn around by then. So far, I've made my billions by doing collaborative work.

However, I could always just go win a major international competition, which should make the college job search easier for me.[/sarcasm][/b]

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"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

my teacher always felt that the principal teacher was more important than the school. if this person was at julliard, curtis, indiana, wherever -- that is where you want to be...

when you find a young artist you admire, find out who they studied with and whose teaching they found most important to their career. that may guide you. whether teacing or performing you'll find that a huge number of great musicians did not come from julliard -- not saying it isn't a great school - but i can name many, many fine musicians who did not study there.

You all keep talking about the "other schools" other than Julliard, NEC, Peabody, etc that are really good. What are some of these schools? I want to go to a good school for my grad degree. But I feel like I just do not belong at the top conservatories ( though I am still looking for a competitive one, with good teachers). Where should I be looking?

Keep the tips coming, guys...I am learning alot that might help me in the very near future ( I will be starting the audition process in the fall! yikes!)

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"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music." ~Rachmaninoff