cola gave pt to curry, lb gave pt to darvin ham, flip is giving pt to dale davis. playing the young guys hasn't lost us a game yet. that's a misconception that when you play your young guys you instantly lose. actually darko is outplaying the vet that flip is using to replace him.

lb never asked for 110% from his core players. sheed coasted for large parts of the season. tay would vanish on a regular basis lb's first year. darko has been willing to give 110 during meaningful minutes. nobody on the team gets out on the pick and roll like darko. nobody on the team patrols the paint like darko trying to block everything in sight. see how hard sheed would play in garbage time only. he would coast and protect his body.

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Flip says he gives nothing. So Flip must be a liar. So must Joe D.

LB and Flip play guys 50 minutes and asks for effort and Ws. LB quote
"I never thought I would have to coach effort".

Here we go with the "meaningful minutes" again. If fact, it's more reason to replace him with someone who sees it like the rest of the TEAM does.

I was totally surprised to hear that Darko has 17 blocks. He must have gotten some of them from the bench because it does not seem that he has played enough to have time to get 17 blocks. Maybe he blocked some of ours .

If he has 17 blocks, and I am sure he does, in such short, short minutes, why do people say he is not doing anything.

He must be faster than the human eye can comprehend .

And what is one stat that Dale is leading DMC in ?

Also, I heard it said that Flip said Darko is digging himself out of the hole, or some words to that effect. Does that mean that he will see some PT ?

Hope so :D .

Personally, I think Flip is playing us for suckers and is going to surprise the Diesel with him, next Thursday, as a birthday present for me .

I absolutely hate it when the other players on the bench are used as the benchmark for Darko. We don't have 5 Darko's on the bench so that we can compare Darko1 versus Darko4.

Dale's played 33 minutes. Darko has played 109. Darko's appeared in 9 more games. Dale is a former All-Star, a vet, was a playoff starter last year. But he's old, and fulfilling a role.

No one anticipated the #2 pick being a role player for the Pistons. If you want to make statistical comparisons, LeBron James has 23 blocks. Dwyane Wade has 22 blocks. Chris Bosh has 25 blocks. Those are Darko's peers, not Darvin Ham, Dale Davis or Jason Maxiell.

I absolutely hate it when the other players on the bench are used as the benchmark for Darko. We don't have 5 Darko's on the bench so that we can compare Darko1 versus Darko4.

Dale's played 33 minutes. Darko has played 109. Darko's appeared in 9 more games. Dale is a former All-Star, a vet, was a playoff starter last year. But he's old, and fulfilling a role.

No one anticipated the #2 pick being a role player for the Pistons. If you want to make statistical comparisons, LeBron James has 23 blocks. Dwyane Wade has 22 blocks. Chris Bosh has 25 blocks. Those are Darko's peers, not Darvin Ham, Dale Davis or Jason Maxiell.

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The reason I used Dale is that Dale is playing ahead of Darko. The reason I did not use Wade, Bosh and LeBron is that they PLAY. Pretty good though that DMC has 14, (as I now hear it) in the few moments he is allowed on the floor, comparing that to the minutes played by "his peers".

My only problem with Dale is that after turning us down last year, he is welcomed here now and played ahead of DMC. The young player who has his future ahead of him is rusting still further while the old timer who could have helped us win a second ring last year stuffed us.

have you been in practice?? darko was impressive in major minutes. he led the nba in blocks. so this to me is a situation where the coach didnt' put darko in a situation where he could succeed. if you know darko plays best during meaningful minutes and he doesn't play well during garbage time as a coach which time would you play him??

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There is the problem my friend. Darko hasn't figured out that ALL time on the court is meaningful. Apparently, you haven't either. Although the game may be decided, that time is also used for evaluation. That's why he can't break the rotation. No, I haven't been in practice, but Flip has and he has complained about Darko. His opinion, plus LB's opinion, plus Joey D's support of his coaches holds a lot more weight than yours.

But thanks anyway, you've proved a point I was trying to make.

You completely ignored the emphasis on "LATELY" and immediately back pedaled to your preseason BLOCKS arguement. Here's a stat for you. Ronald Dupree led the Pistons in scoring during the preseason in his first audition for the Pistons roster. He didn't make the team. Today, he is still fighting for minutes....and noone cares about his preseason exploits.

The other point I will make is that even if Dale Davis's minutes have not been earned (All star status and a proven track record in the league apparently mean nothing), so what. So what, Bballj. So what, Darko. Apparently, the coach believes Dale Davis's contribution can be more substantial than Darko's at this point. Dale Davis is a veteran and he has proven that he can be valuable during crunch time in a playoff atmosphere. Darko does not have half of the seasoning that Davis has. How does Darko prove coach wrong? By seriously outplaying Davis when he gets an opportunity.

Just in case you missed it...

How does Darko prove coach wrong? By seriously outplaying Davis when he gets an opportunity.

That hasn't happened. Whose fault is that?

The fact remains that Darko DOES have something to play for when he is out there in limited time. And he STILL does not get it.

I feel that the coaches are teaching Darko a valuable lesson.

If you want it... TAKE IT!

Don't wait for someone to give it to you.

Show some self responsiblity.

If Darko can't rise above his situation here, he does not have the heart of a champion. And we don't need him.

I'm glad when someone comes along and articulates the Darko argument very well. It saves me from doing any writing. Like I said on the game thread, Zarko BEFORE Darko last night. Darko should be asking himself (as he should have plenty of time to think while sitting on the bench) "How did I get here?" I guess I'm wondering at this point if Joe D. made a colossal mistake with his No. 2 pick. He said last night during a Blaha interview that he's willing to admit his mistakes. Jury's still out on this one because Darko really hasn't played much, but seems as if a lot of that has been up to him. I hope the kid realizes what a golden opportunity he has in Detroit and begins to play harder in practice. When he does play, I agree with bballjay that he has pretty good instincts on D. But I don't see it on O. I could care less if he runs the pick and roll well. Big deal. That's what he's getting millions for? If he's out on the perimeter after setting a pick, there's normally a good chance he'll have an open look. Can he create his own shot? Where are these sick, offensive skills the boy is supposed to have? I want to see them -- at least in garbage time. Seeing is believing. Damn, I ended up writing anyway.

I was totally surprised to hear that Darko has 17 blocks. He must have gotten some of them from the bench because it does not seem that he has played enough to have time to get 17 blocks. Maybe he blocked some of ours .

If he has 17 blocks, and I am sure he does, in such short, short minutes, why do people say he is not doing anything.

He must be faster than the human eye can comprehend .

And what is one stat that Dale is leading DMC in ?

Also, I heard it said that Flip said Darko is digging himself out of the hole, or some words to that effect. Does that mean that he will see some PT ?

Hope so :D .

Personally, I think Flip is playing us for suckers and is going to surprise the Diesel with him, next Thursday, as a birthday present for me .

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Darko has 17 blocks. Whoopie. Look at his rebounding total and the rest of his stats. They suck. Those 17 blocks simply don't tell the whole story of how Darko seems to get lost on defense and can't rebound to save his life. He continues to float around the perimeter instead of battling for boards. Thats not Pistons DNA!!!! He also continues to make excuses like he needs time to warm up. Whatever!!! If being warm is such a big deal get the stationary bike and put it behind the bench and get to riding.

There is the problem my friend. Darko hasn't figured out that ALL time on the court is meaningful. Apparently, you haven't either. Although the game may be decided, that time is also used for evaluation. That's why he can't break the rotation. No, I haven't been in practice, but Flip has and he has complained about Darko. His opinion, plus LB's opinion, plus Joey D's support of his coaches holds a lot more weight than yours.

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you can make the all minutes are meaningful when you put in a vet during garbage time and they go all out. no vet goes full steam 110% in garbage time unless he is a career garbage timer. all minutes are not meaningful because if so jmax would be getting some minutes based on his garbage time performance.

flip is just as much to blame about darko's performance. he is the one the shot down his confidence. just imagine how ben wallace would respond if flip put darko in when they were doing hack a ben was fouling him just because darko can hit free throws. ben wouldn't hit another free throw all season.

But thanks anyway, you've proved a point I was trying to make.

You completely ignored the emphasis on "LATELY" and immediately back pedaled to your preseason BLOCKS arguement. Here's a stat for you. Ronald Dupree led the Pistons in scoring during the preseason in his first audition for the Pistons roster. He didn't make the team. Today, he is still fighting for minutes....and noone cares about his preseason exploits.

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lately he hasn't even got the minutes to do anything lately. you would have a point if darko wasn't doing anything lately if he was doing the same amount of minutes.

by the way i think dupree should have made the roster this year.

The other point I will make is that even if Dale Davis's minutes have not been earned (All star status and a proven track record in the league apparently mean nothing), so what. So what, Bballj. So what, Darko. Apparently, the coach believes Dale Davis's contribution can be more substantial than Darko's at this point. Dale Davis is a veteran and he has proven that he can be valuable during crunch time in a playoff atmosphere. Darko does not have half of the seasoning that Davis has. How does Darko prove coach wrong? By seriously outplaying Davis when he gets an opportunity.

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he has outplayed davis. that is my point davis has been a non factor. i think flip is playing davis to prove a point to darko not because he can contribute more than darko. how can darko prove it, how can darko show he's valuable during crunch time if the coach doesn't play him???

Just in case you missed it...

How does Darko prove coach wrong? By seriously outplaying Davis when he gets an opportunity.

That hasn't happened. Whose fault is that?

The fact remains that Darko DOES have something to play for when he is out there in limited time. And he STILL does not get it.

I feel that the coaches are teaching Darko a valuable lesson.

If you want it... TAKE IT!

Don't wait for someone to give it to you.

Show some self responsiblity.

If Darko can't rise above his situation here, he does not have the heart of a champion. And we don't need him.

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yes. very smart lose your athletic 7 footer to free agency that you spent years of teaching and millions of dollars on teaching him a lesson. you have to take care of your young players because that thing you think you are teaching him a lesson about pretty much every other team in the league would just give him plus a few extra million.

if the pistons org doesn't stop teaching lessons and start developing thier youth they will be destined to repeat the collapse they had after the bad boys.

Darko has 17 blocks. Whoopie. Look at his rebounding total and the rest of his stats. They suck. Those 17 blocks simply don't tell the whole story of how Darko seems to get lost on defense and can't rebound to save his life. He continues to float around the perimeter instead of battling for boards. Thats not Pistons DNA!!!! He also continues to make excuses like he needs time to warm up. Whatever!!! If being warm is such a big deal get the stationary bike and put it behind the bench and get to riding.

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look at the stats of the guy that replaced him and you will see something worse. darko doesn't get lost on d that is his strong point actually. all of our bigs spend too much time on the perimeter that why we don't board as well as we did last year.

you can make the all minutes are meaningful when you put in a vet during garbage time and they go all out. no vet goes full steam 110% in garbage time unless he is a career garbage timer. all minutes are not meaningful because if so jmax would be getting some minutes based on his garbage time performance.

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Darko isn't a vet. (maybe someone should tell him that) And I disagree. If a vet was serious about getting minutes they would play all out. If they don't, well chances are they won't play.

In J-Max's limited time, he has looked okay but not outstanding. So, he doesn't get in the rotation. He's done nothing to force the Pistons hand, so he sits, just like Darko.

bball jay said:

flip is just as much to blame about darko's performance. he is the one the shot down his confidence. just imagine how ben wallace would respond if flip put darko in when they were doing hack a ben was fouling him just because darko can hit free throws. ben wouldn't hit another free throw all season.

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so what. Flip isn't fighting for a job. Darko is. Any Darko/Ben comparison is disrepectful to Ben. Ben left it all out on the floor and forced the league to play him based on his hard work effort WHENEVER he got the opportunity. Ben never played like the league owed him something.

bballj said:

lately he hasn't even got the minutes to do anything lately. you would have a point if darko wasn't doing anything lately if he was doing the same amount of minutes.

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still don't see it do ya? Darko needs to EARN minutes to do something regardless if you or he thinks it fair or not. He doesn't do it in practice. He doesn't do it when he gets garbage time. No one is going to give him anything. He has to TAKE IT.

You still don't get it, huh?

bballj said:

he has outplayed davis. that is my point davis has been a non factor. i think flip is playing davis to prove a point to darko not because he can contribute more than darko. how can darko prove it, how can darko show he's valuable during crunch time if the coach doesn't play him???

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Darko hasn't earned crunch time play, so he isn't going to get any. Just like I'm not going to get any. lol. Darko is going to have to outplay Davis by a larger margin to take his minutes, otherwise experience is going to win over potential under Flip.

bballj said:

yes. very smart lose your athletic 7 footer to free agency that you spent years of teaching and millions of dollars on teaching him a lesson. you have to take care of your young players because that thing you think you are teaching him a lesson about pretty much every other team in the league would just give him plus a few extra million.

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Years of teaching and millions of dollars to a number 2 pick to produce a player who can't show that he is head and shoulders a much more viable option than a declining Dale Davis? He's been mentored/practiced with Memo, Sheed, Big Ben, Campell, Larry Brown, Flip. This is all we get?

Thanks for defending my point.

I have no sympathy for Darko. Make the best of your opportunity or move out the way so someone else can.

Darko will not be a Hall of Fame player. Doesn't have the heart. He's shown that much at least.

If Darko played with half of the passion you waste defending his lack of desire, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Seriously. I cannot understand where all of this undying loyalty and devotion come from. The guy has done nothing whatsoever for us. Not on the court and not in the community. It's absolutely mind boggling.

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I think the loyalty makes perfect sense. Perfect sense for being Pistons fans.

Let's break this down...

We draft Darko #2 overall, and Detroit fans are happy. We hear he has mad skills and will be a building block for the future, but it will take some time. (They HAVE been saying that all along)

Next, LB (The Man, in my opinion) keeps Darko down, and Detroit fans love him more. We love an underdog. We hold out hope that he WILL shine and prove the critics wrong.

Furthermore, we have a team of what other people thought were garbage, or trouble makers, or under acheivers... or whatever. Darko has become one of the boys. And that makes us, Detroit fans, like him even more.

Really, this kid is still a kid. Struggling for the right attitude, and waiting for the perfect situation, to make his mark.

Being a Lions fan, as I'm sure lots of us are (whether we admit it or not), we would really hate to see him leave and become awesome after he leaves.

Loyalty, patience. Waiting for the Cinderella story to come to fruition. He came into the league with some hype around him, and now, sportswriters and everyone else who thinks they have a valid opinion is ripping on the kid... and we are waiting for the Phoenix to be reborn from the ashes.

THAT is the loyalty. Trusting and believing when everyone else counts you out... Kind of like the fellas who wore the red white and blue and hoisted the trophy 2 years ago.

If Darko works hard and becomes a contributor, he will be exactly what this team is built on. This team is not: Draft this guy and he is the leading scorer his rookie year... or we need to pay this guy $$$$$$ because without him we're lost. This is a team of mature professional athletes, and Darko needs to mature, and most of us are patiently loyal.

Bball, Darko may have been swatting shots against some big names, but let's not get too selective with our memories. Relative midgets like Mike Sweetney and Melvin Ely have also had their way with him, because Darko doesn't bother to deny them the ball or low post position. He won't be more than a spot defensive player until he learns that he can't block every shot.

Loyalty, patience. Waiting for the Cinderella story to come to fruition. He came into the league with some hype around him, and now, sportswriters and everyone else who thinks they have a valid opinion is ripping on the kid... and we are waiting for the Phoenix to be reborn from the ashes.

THAT is the loyalty. Trusting and believing when everyone else counts you out... Kind of like the fellas who wore the red white and blue and hoisted the trophy 2 years ago.

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I see that more as "faith" rather than "loyalty". The problem is, I see it as "blind faith" because Darko has given us very little to show he will come around or that he even wants to. The faith exists out of a love for the team. The faith exists over wanting every part of that team to thrive within the system. But can't you love the team but not love a player who has contributed nothing positive to that team?

"Loyalty" to me, would be like sticking with Ben through a slump. I could see fans being loyal to Ben...or even Dice. They have given us something of themselves...effort. Darko doesn't even seem to care.

Having raised two teenaged sons, I understand some of the problems in doing so, and of course our household did not include any professional players.

But, it seems that the Piston's brass are and have been fighting the battle on Darko's playing field. They insist on this "earning your minutes" but when he did well, the minutes were not coming.

And they still play the "earn your minutes" game when we come to times in real games when Darko could help, and still they continue to play their silly game with him.

Last night, Diogu might possibly have been stopped or significantly slowed by a taller, quick player rather than a couple of players who seemed to have decided that blocking or denying the shots were not really a top priority.

So the let the "unmotivated" player on the bench while they used two more "unmotivated" players play, and they did not stop the interloper.
They didn't seem to even try that hard.

I found when I raised my boys that I fought the battles that were important but at times there were more important things than winning a battle which had become just a stubbornness thing.

Just my awkward way of saying the some things should be done for the good of the team rather than just showing who is boss. I see Darko's days in Detroit coming to an end and I am beginning to think that it will be in DMC's best interests.

We can't see the forest for the trees here, and somewhere else, when he can at least see a light at the end of the tunnel, he will emerge as a good basketball player.

No matter what he does here or how he changes his attitude, he is not going to be a significant player for another several years. He is probably just getting tired of waiting.

When the Colts drafted Peyton Manning #1 they took him over Ryan Leaf, who actually had far better college numbers. They did this after running both Manning and Leaf through a battery of psychological tests to see who was more competitive and mentally tougher. That is why they choose Manning. Now Manning has yet to win a Super Bowl but he certainly has had a far mor distinguished pro career than Leaf.

Dumars should have run DMC through a battery of pyschological tests before drafting him. It was a big mistake not to and to and as a result waste a #2 pick on a guy that so far has shown that he would rather take the money and run rather take the money and earn it.

Bball, Darko may have been swatting shots against some big names, but let's not get too selective with our memories. Relative midgets like Mike Sweetney and Melvin Ely have also had their way with him, because Darko doesn't bother to deny them the ball or low post position. He won't be more than a spot defensive player until he learns that he can't block every shot.

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micheal sweetney was giving ben wallace the business too. didn't matter where he got it against ben.

yes. you are right he needs to do more than block shots. he gets deflections and defends the pick and roll very well. the only thing defensively i think he needs to work on is rebounding. the rest is coming along very nicely for a 20 year old. he has to play to learn that you can't just block every shot.

In J-Max's limited time, he has looked okay but not outstanding. So, he doesn't get in the rotation. He's done nothing to force the Pistons hand, so he sits, just like Darko.

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jmax has been pretty dominant in the post in garbage time. there is nothing he can do to force the pistons to play him. that's what i'm trying to say there are no minutes to earn. jmax will not take minutes from tay or mcdyess or ben.

so what. Flip isn't fighting for a job. Darko is. Any Darko/Ben comparison is disrepectful to Ben. Ben left it all out on the floor and forced the league to play him based on his hard work effort WHENEVER he got the opportunity. Ben never played like the league owed him something.

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ben wallace left it all on the floor and guess how many years it took him to hit the floor??? guess what he didn't hit the floor for the team he was on. he hit the floor for another team that gave him a chance. get the point???? we don't want darko to do well on another squad that gives him a chance. ben is not untouchable any comparison is valid. in fact i'll compare ben getting blocked by the rim to darko's block by the rim abilities.

still don't see it do ya? Darko needs to EARN minutes to do something regardless if you or he thinks it fair or not. He doesn't do it in practice. He doesn't do it when he gets garbage time. No one is going to give him anything. He has to TAKE IT.

You still don't get it, huh?

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you still don't get it. EARNING minutes is a company line. there is no way to earn minutes when you are playing behind 3 former all stars. darko needs the experience to be better than them. it isn't the physical talent it's the basketball knowledge and experience he's lacking. things he won't get on the bench.

you left out one thing. darko does play well during meaningful minutes. why punish him for not doing well when the game isn't on the line?? oh yeah we have to teach darko that every minute is meaningful.

Darko hasn't earned crunch time play, so he isn't going to get any. Just like I'm not going to get any. lol. Darko is going to have to outplay Davis by a larger margin to take his minutes, otherwise experience is going to win over potential under Flip.

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which is the same mistake lb made. lb would rather win now and not care about the future. dale will be gone in 2 years abilities still there or not. it's in flips and the pistons best interest to develop darko. i think potential is much better than experience when they are giving you the same results because darko has the potential to give you even greater results when he gets the experience.

Years of teaching and millions of dollars to a number 2 pick to produce a player who can't show that he is head and shoulders a much more viable option than a declining Dale Davis? He's been mentored/practiced with Memo, Sheed, Big Ben, Campell, Larry Brown, Flip. This is all we get?

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in the preseason he showed he was a better shot blocker than everyone else in the league. he's shown that his outside shot will fall if he gets to play. darko is the future dale is not. it doesn't matter if they are comparable right now it's about where darko will be in a few years.

I have no sympathy for Darko. Make the best of your opportunity or move out the way so someone else can.

Darko will not be a Hall of Fame player. Doesn't have the heart. He's shown that much at least.

If Darko played with half of the passion you waste defending his lack of desire, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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if that's what you call an oppurtunity. darko is a # 2 pick and hasn't had a stretch of 3 games where he's had 20 minutes in a row. 3 minute auditions every 9 days or so is not an oppurtunity.

i'd hate to see what you think is making it tough for someone. if darko was given the minutes you would see he has plenty of passion and plenty of heart. why waste it on garbage time only??

i think this discussion is much better than discussing in a couple of years about why we should have kept darko while we sink into another teal era as our bigs decline with age and injury.

When the Colts drafted Peyton Manning #1 they took him over Ryan Leaf, who actually had far better college numbers. They did this after running both Manning and Leaf through a battery of psychological tests to see who was more competitive and mentally tougher. That is why they choose Manning. Now Manning has yet to win a Super Bowl but he certainly has had a far mor distinguished pro career than Leaf.

Dumars should have run DMC through a battery of pyschological tests before drafting him. It was a big mistake not to and to and as a result waste a #2 pick on a guy that so far has shown that he would rather take the money and run rather take the money and earn it.

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how would you suggest he earn it?? is he really earning that fat paycheck if he plays hard during 3 minutes of garbage time??? darko is an investment and if you don't nurture it then that's your fault if you don't get the returns on it.

the mistake dumars made was handling his # 2 pick like we are a lottery team. the lottery teams groom and develop players for the rest of the league. that's what the pistons are becoming. nothing is wrong with darko's head he's probably much worse now than he was when he came here.