From Rothschild To Koch Industries: Meet The People Who "Fix" The Price Of Gold

Earlier today many were stunned when the historic, 117-year old, London Silver Fix announced that in three months it would no longer exist. However, silver is only one half of the world's two best known precious metals. Which is why we decided to take a long, hard look at that other fix: gold.

The reason for this particular inquiry is because in the aftermath of the rapid and dramatic departure of the world's largest bank by outstanding notional derivatives, and Europe's biggest bank by any metric, Deutsche Bank, from the precious metal fix, something felt out of place: almost as if the participants of the "fixing" process which for so many years took place in the office of none other than Rothschild on St. Swithin's Lane in London, were suddenly scrambling to disappear without a trace.

In conducting our research we hope to not only memorialize just who are these particular individuals who "fix" gold using nothing but publicly available information of course - because after all it is not as if they have anything to hide or fear - but to connect some of the very peculiar dots behind the scenes of what to some, is the original, and most manipulated market in history - that of gold.

* * *

First, as has been reported previously, when Deutsche departs, this will leave only four gold fix members, namely, Barclays, HSBC, Société Générale (SocGen) and Scotiabank, and since only two silver fixing entities remained, HSBC and Scotiabank, the traditional silver price discovery mechanism was shuttered. The Fixings are conducted twice daily at 10:30 am and 3 pm London time and are used widely by all participants in the precious metals industry for benchmarking prices and valuations and also as trading price reference points.

The gold and silver fixings are organised through UK limited liability companies of which the member investment bank traders are directors. Before the resignation of Deutsche Bank, there were five directors and five alternate directors of "The London Gold Market Fixing Limited" and three directors and three alternate directors of "The London Silver Market Fixing Limited."

Earlier this year on 16th January, German financial regulator BaFin stated that possible manipulation of currency and precious metals markets could be more serious than the manipulation that has already been proven in the Libor rigging scandal. On the very next day, January 17th, Deutsche Bank announced that it was withdrawing from both the gold and silver fixings in what it called "a scaling back of its commodities business."

Needless to say, in aftermath of the termination of the silver fix, and now that there are significant regulatory and litigation spotlights on the Fixings, and one major member exiting, some are wondering: will the demise of the Silver Fixing undermine the rationale for retaining the Gold Fixing? And what will replace it.

* * *

We don't have the answer. What we do know is that using public records such as the British Companies House database and other public databases, one can find not only all the available information on the London Gold Market Fixing Limited company before it too disappears into thin air, but to get a sense of the kind of people it employs.

Below is the full list of 10 most recent directors and backups of the Gold Fixing:

So let's start with everyone favorite French bank: SocGen, where we meet young master Vincent Domien, born June 13, 1980, and director since January 25, 2010. His Goldfixing phone contact info is +44 207 762 5374, and he can be reached at: vincent.domien@sgcib.com. His LinkedIn profile has extensive details on what it takes to become a gold fixer.

Sadly, the other director from SocGen, Xavier Lannegrace, born 1964 and director since December 19, 2013, has no LinkedIn profile, so we had to go to other primary sources. As it turns out Mr. Lannegrace keeps a low profile but does have occasional media appearances, such as this one in Risk.net from 2011

Instead of increasing margin calls to protect against credit risk as many banks did at this time, SG CIB began providing some unmargined lines to mining firms, even taking over margined positions that miners had with other lenders and making them unmargined.

"To avoid a cash constraint we can provide some unmargined lines - transforming risk on the price into risk of performance. But in that case what we really need to see is the miner performing, producing the material, and delivering the material," explains Xavier Lannegrace, managing director of base metals, precious metals and agriculture at SG CIB in Paris.

And also from Risk, from the year before:

“The Meteor system has been able to handle a massive increase in both flow and new transactions, which leaves us in a very strong position on the operational side. We looked at all our operational risk reporting, counterparty risk exposures and risk limits, and Meteor told us we are solid. So we can keep on developing a stronger commodities desk, moving into agricultural commodities and developing new indexes because we know commodities are going to be the hot spot with investors in 2010,” says Xavier Lannegrace, global head of commodities marketing and sales in Paris.

* * *

“You can go to bed at night having left an order with Société Générale knowing that order is going to be watched and looked after, so there is no problem when you come into the office the next morning. The service is first class.”

As well as the sharp drop in metals prices last year, the collapse of Lehman on September 15 sent reverberations around the metals markets. The investment bank was not a big player in the metals markets, but the collapse of the broker-dealer caused counterparty credit risk to become the number one issue for market credit risk, we have seen investors and corporates diversify their hedges amongst several banks. Those who normally traded with one, two, or three banks are now trading with five or six different banking counterparties,” says Xavier Lannegrace, global head of commodities marketing at Société Générale Corporate and Investment Banking (SG CIB) in Paris.

* * *

Moving to the bank that redefined the term "money laundering", HSBC we meet David Rose, contact phone +44 207 992 8041 and contact email: david.b.rose@hsbcgroup.com, who has the following rather sparse LinkedIn profile:

And his alternate director, Peter Drabwell, self-described on LinkedIn as "a precious metals sales and trader"

* * *

We then proceed to the current Chairman of the Gold Fixing group, Simon Weeks, born 1962, who hails from Canada's Scotiabank, aka ScotiaMocatta. He is one of the veteran directors, appointed in February 1995. Those who so wish can reach Simon at +44 207 826 5930 and his contact email is simon.weeks@scotiabank.com. Alas, there is not much in his LinkedIn profile:

* * *

And the alternate from ScotiaMocatta: Steven Lowe

Steve is the Managing Director of Scotiabank, London with overall responsibility for sales, trading and distribution of Scotiabank’s European precious metals business. Additionally he is the Global Head of ScotiaMocatta's base metals business, CEO of Scotia Capital Europe Ltd and a board member of Scotiabank Europe Plc. Prior to his arrival in London in 1998, Steve worked in Toronto covering a portfolio of North American mining companies, particularly credit products including debt, project finance and metal derivative transactions. Steve has an MBA from the Ivey School of Business and a Bachelor of Commerce degree from Queen's University.

He has been a member of the LBMA Management Committee for numerous years and has acted as Vice Chair of the committee for two years. He also sits on the LBMA PAC committee.

* * *

Next we get to most British notorious bank, Barclays, we find director Mr. Martyn Whitehead, contact phone: +44 20 7773 8106, contact email: martyn.whitehead@barcap.com, whose LinkedIn profile describes him as "Global Head of Mining & Metal Sales at Barclays Capital", and who previously worked for 6 years at Rothschild.

* * *

Also from Barclays, there is Jonathan Spall, who also has quite an extensive LinkedIn profile.

Alas, Mr. Spall won't be at Barclays, or the fix, for long. As Bloomberg reported in January 2014

Barclays Plc cut commodities jobs in London and New York as part of reductions in fixed income, currencies and commodities, according to two people familiar with the matter. Bharath Manium, a managing director in commodities structuring, Paul Jackman, a managing director in the commodities index business, Jonathan Spall, product manager for metals in London, and Sudakshina Unnikrishnan, an analyst in London, are leaving, according to the people who asked not to be identified because the move hasn’t been made public.

In fact as was reported by London Gold Market Fixing Ltd, Mr. Spall is no longer with the company since April 9, 2014.

* * *

Which leaves us with the two most interesting and curious individuals: the "fixers" from Deutsche Bank, which as was reported previously, is no longer a member of the gold fix company courtesy of BaFin's accelerated procedure to reign in the German bank.

What follows next is an intricate timeline journey into the gold fixing rabbit hole, where we find some very suspicious and unreported issues about Deutsche Bank's departure from the Gold and Silver Fixings, namely Matthew Keen's sudden resignation and departure in January after BaFin's statements, followed by the resignation of Kevin Rodgers. Why did Keen resign? Secondly, Deutsche quietly stopped contributing to GOFO as early as February or March.

1. On Friday January 17th, Deutsche announces that its quitting the gold and silver fixings. On Monday 20th January, Matthew Keen, Deutsche's head of precious metals, resigns from the London gold and silver fixings companies and is replaced by Kevin Rodgers, Deutsche's global head of FX. Matt Keen then departs fully from Deutsche Bank in January, and starts a new job for Jefferies in April.

Deutsche Bank then announces on 28th April that Kevin Rodgers is resigning from Deutsche Bank, the day before it announces that it can't sell its two seats on the gold and silver panels and that it is resigning. The resignation of Matthew Keen has not been reported anywhere it seems.

2. Sometime in March at the latest, Deutsche Bank quits being an LBMA forward market maker, and stops contributing to GOFO rates and forward curve data. This also appears to not have been reported previously.

The following timeline illustrates some important information that has not been discussed:

November 27th 2013: German regulator BaFin announces that it is reviewing how banks participate in the gold and silver price setting

Monday 20th January 2014: Matthew Keen, Director (precious metals) at Deutsche Bank resigns as a director of the gold and silver fixing companies and Kevin Rodgers, Global Head of Foreign Exchange at Deutsche Bank is appointed as Deutsche Director in both of these companies (why an FX trader is appointed to trade commodities is not quite clear).

On the same day, Matthew Keen also resigns as the Deutsche director representative of London Precious Metals Clearing Limited (LPMCL) and is replaced by Raj Kumar, Deutsche'sEuropean COO, Commodities.

LBMA rolled out a new web site in ealr April. This was mentioned in the LBMA's Alchemist, Issue 73, published March 31st. The wayback machine has an imprint from the new site on April 9th. In the GOFO contributor list, Deutsche is not listed

Saturday May 10th 2014: FT's John Dizard comments that "Precious metals market people tell me that even in advance of Deutsche's formal departure from both the gold and silver fix, the bank had reduced its participation in putting up bids or offers at the silver fix very substantially."

A source familiar with the situation told Reuters that Deutsche Bank had postponed its resignation, responding to a specific request from Britain's Financial Conduct Authority (FCA).

"The other banks may have indicated to the regulator that they were looking to withdraw as well and so to make this an orderly affair Deutsche was asked to postpone the date of resignation," the source said.

In other words, just as the Silver Fix is no more, so the Gold Fix will almost certainly be nothing but a memory in a few short months now that the spotlight is shining on its members. But why the sudden scramble to depart and not just by Deutsche but by all other members? (... that was rhetorical)

Other questions also remain unanswered.

Looking at Mr. Keen's LinkedIn profile we find that before Deutsche, Keen worked as Head of Precious Metals at none other than the infamous Koch Industries. Here he "Built a global precious metal business around Precious Metal and PGM inventory management for the oil refining and speciality chemical processing industries."

Wait, so the Deutsche trader who is most suspect of rigging the Fix, and who quit first (and hence, best), learned his craft at Koch Industries? It almost makes one wonder just what kind of gold and silver trading the Koch brothers engage in.

* * *

But perhaps the most curious and surprising finding here is what Bloomberg reported back in November, when it wrote one of the first articles exposing the "Fix" to the mainstream (if not so much the "tinfoil blog" vertical which was well aware of all of this years ago). To wit:

London Gold Market Fixing Ltd., a company controlled by the five banks that administers the benchmark, has no permanent employees. A call from Bloomberg News was referred to Douglas Beadle, 68, a former Rothschild banker, who acts as a consultant to the company from his home in Caterham, a small commuter town 45 minutes south of London by train. Beadle declined to comment on the benchmark-setting process.

"No permanent employees": extremely convenient when one has to pick up and simply disappear without a trace...

Either way, the fixing issue is intriguing, but again, the whole drop kick the market by selling 20 tons when most rational north american medicated citizens are sleeping without regard to price is the much more important issue.

Y'know, we start out in life as cute babies without a care in the world, grow into adolescence while still usually being OK, and then something happens to some of us that turns us into selfish greedy bastards who would rob and kill others without any conscience problems. What is it exactly that goes wrong?

Actually, if interest rates go up the U.S. Treasury is going to have a real problem paying its bills along with the interest on all the money it needs to borrow to pay those bills. So, the risk of default increases or they print more money. We are also witnessing the slow death of the Petrodollar regime. All scenarios bodes well for gold. Bitches.

Certainly "The Fix" is a part of the PM manipulation, but only a part, and perhaps the least important part. Irrespective of what "The Fix" is replaced by, there remains no obstacle to the BIS and CB's, using their BB Agents, dumping thousands of naked paper shorts during thin Globex trading hours, clearly without reference to a profit motive. So, as long as the paper tail continues to wag the physical dog, I fear that the manipulation will continue essentially unchanged, irrespective of "The Fix".

Comex has already become a "Circle Jerk" between the BB's alternating on opposite sides of a contract with The Fed printing to cover any net losses over time.

It's a little like cockroaches scurrying for darkness when light shines on them? And there is never only one cockroach.

They have probably been tipped off by the "Regulators" to get out of Dodge while the going is still good and go hide somewhere for now. And remember, what we call "Manipulation" is known to the CB's as "Monetary Policy". And they are above what Rule of Law as actually still exists?. Their "Monetary Policy" with PM's has become blatantly obvious and they seem not only not to care but want to telegraph very clearly what their policy is, lest anyone should start to get funny ideas about being able to buy Gold as a source of both profit and circumventing Fial Ponzi games.

I often wondered about that as well. But some people are just born bad. Is it nature version nurture? A combination of that?

In the animal kingdom the one that is leader of the pack at a certain time is the one most suited for that position. In the human kingdom we just have psychopaths. We really should screen anybody aspiring a position of power for these mental illnesses.

That was not ad hominem. It was abusive - to be sure - but an ad hominem attack uses flaws in the speaker's character/background to (irrationally) justify dismissal of his central argument. That's not what he did.

NidStyles - Knowledge is power. The Central Bank model conquered the earth by actions by first came understanding. Timing is everything. A guy I worked for had bought silver at $8. When it got to $50 I told him to get out and explained how floor and ceiling prices work (didn't explain how the world REALLY worked) and to get out as he wanted a house for his pregnant girlfield and liquidating it would have given him the funds for downpayment for something decent, some furniture etc. Do you think he sold the silver?

Look - There is not a problem with intermediaries like banking. There isn't a problem with lending in general. The problem is manipulation of events. There are plenty of people that want to believe whatever they want and they can and should succeed or fail based on doing research or lack thereof. The crime I charge individuals that run this model for is manipulation NOT because there are a lot of ignorant people in the world. Nothing wrong with Duke and Duke "Receiving the commissions" haha.

Someone stated some people are born bad. Perhaps but most have a choice to correct it even if it is difficult. Our evolution seems to be accelerating and we strive for balance. Some profit off of CREATING imbalance which is criminal behavior. This always is but is prone to cycles of generational dynamics and models of conquest but the attrocities in raw aggregate terms has declined over the millenia and recent centuries but still soft slavery or just less robbery and murder is unnaceptable or does someone wish to debate this point?

The best we can do right now is channel our competitive human nature and attempt personal balance through education then attempt to educate those with an EAR. I used to like the term "healthy competition". I speculate that by the time our species is near perfect balance whenever that happens we will evolve back into energy. Gold, money, pussy all of those things become irrelvant and frankly if a some good meals and blowjobs (or pick your own sexual desire) is the best this place has got to offer well I certainly do not want to live forever here.

After this cyclical crash and hopefully not too many war casualties I expect banking will become a utility, defense stocks will never be publically traded again and sociopaths will be screened for government positions. It will be prohibitavely expensive to buy government. But I also speculate we'll see another couple to few cycles before attaining balance. It is then that we get bored and finish the last cycle of evolution measured in decades. I believe that this pattern continues indefinately and whoever "god" is as a temporary station. Even what I say happens to be true then I imagine at some point god can't wait for recreation. Thanks for letting me share some thoughts.

NidStyles - Knowledge is power. The Central Bank model conquered the earth by actions but first came understanding. Timing is everything. A guy I worked for had bought silver at $8. When it got to $50 I told him to get out and explained how floor and ceiling prices work (didn't explain how the world REALLY worked) and to get out as he wanted a house for his pregnant girlfield and liquidating it would have given him the funds for downpayment for something decent, some furniture etc. Do you think he sold the silver?

Look - There is not a problem with intermediaries like banking. There isn't a problem with lending in general. The problem is manipulation of events. There are plenty of people that want to believe whatever they want and they can and should succeed or fail based on doing research or lack thereof. The crime I charge individuals that run this model for is manipulation NOT because there are a lot of ignorant people in the world. Nothing wrong with Duke and Duke "Receiving the commissions" haha.

Someone stated some people are born bad. Perhaps but most have a choice to correct it even if it is difficult. No pain no gain :D

Our evolution seems to be accelerating and we strive for balance. My real issue are models that profit by CREATING imbalance which is criminal behavior. This always is but is prone to cycles of generational dynamics and models of conquest but the attrocities in raw aggregate terms has declined over the millenia and recent centuries but still soft slavery or just less robbery and murder is unnaceptable or does someone wish to debate this point? Our imbalance is a very tempting target for exploitaion. Because while I see no harm in profit off imbalance it is a very thing line to cross over into creating it for personal gain and that is what I call evil.

The best we can do right now is channel our competitive human nature and attempt personal balance through education then attempt to educate those with an EAR. Of course the Rothschild's are not going to tell you how the world really works. But the Internet is forcing changes to the model already and this will continue whether you, I, them kick or scream or not about it.

I used to like the term "healthy competition". I speculate that by the time our species is near perfect balance whenever that happens we will evolve back into energy. Gold, money, pussy all of those things become irrelvant at that point and frankly if some good meals and blowjobs (or pick your own sexual desire) is the best this place has got to offer well I certainly do not want to live here forever.

After this cyclical crash and hopefully not too many war casualties (but I do think there will be) I expect banking will become a utility, defense stocks will never be publically traded again and sociopaths will be screened for government positions. It will be prohibitavely expensive to buy government. But I also speculate we'll see another couple to few cycles before attaining balance so some group will learn how to overcome obstacles and be the global pain in the ass again. These force evolution forward the hard way but a rabbit doesn't thank a wolf before it gets eaten does it? It is at this point in balance then that we get bored and finish the last cycle of evolution measured in decades. I believe that this pattern continues indefinately and whoever "god" is as a temporary station. Even if what I say happens to be true then I imagine at some point god can't wait for recreation. Thanks for letting me share some thoughts.

I see a lot of my friends that are only pissed that they have been screwed or their investement is manipulated instead of focusing on the utter corruption on the big scale.

I've been molested by these financial swindlers myself; however, my greatest gripe is that this financial chicanery directly promotes and supports the current administration in the White House which I consider to be an Abomination.

That's the big picture for me...

The whole system is a charade! Are they going to contiune to promote a Republican if they were to get in the White House? lol

Whatever, I gave you a thumbs up because as I said there's a lot of truth in your comment.

My guess is I don't think so. Let's walk through this. With no one to fudge the numbers, silver trades freely against the USD and gold. Since silver is now some wheres around 60:1 to gold, this ratio heads back closer to the historic 16:1, (but doesn't quite get there). call it maybe 25:1? 30:1? All this with gold floating higher but no where nearly as fast as silver rises. I think there's a lot of room for silver to rise without it seriously forcing either the dollar down or gold substantially higher.

The problem is that eventually, with silver trading freely, it will force the same thing to happen to gold. And that will eventually be the beginning of the demise of the USD. All of this is without having a) a shooting war in the South Pacific Ocean, b) a shooting war on the Korean Peninsula or c) more of a shooting war in Ukraine.

Although my sentiments are with $7 silver, (at least for a short buying period), I'm just not sure it will come about. It doesn't jive with current prices for goods historically relative to silver. In fact, the contrary is true as inflation creeps into the picture everywhere. But do believe this: freely traded and fairly priced silver will be the can opener that will spill the beans, as it were.

Thanks to all the Tylers. You have now proven to me beyond a metaphysical doubt I am a masochist. Everytime I read some new expose by you guys (gals) I scream...."NO MORE....I CAN'T TAKE IT.....I WILL NEVER COME HERE AGAIN.....I DON'T NEED TO READ ANY MORE ABOUT THIS.....WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE NOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looking at metals manipulation ONLY (discounting war, human suffering, et al), these groups/individuals have been our best friends. Knowing what the end game is, I feel lucky to still buy silver at $20 and gold at $1,300 and am happy with their shenanigans. Just like it would be cool to go back in time and buy that 1952 Topps Micky Mantle card for a nickel, we'll all wish we could go back and buy at these prices. The only people that should be discouraged are those that trade the ETF's or want/need to sell. There are a lot of charlatans in the movement that watch 'fundamentals' and claim to know the trends. Manipulated or not, you're fighting controllers of the Dollar and you're not going to win short-term without luck. Buy the PHYSICAL and hold it. Don't time it. Every single day is a good day to buy. It is never a good day to sell.

Just to state the now obvious. There are no free markets. All markets are controlled and dominated by those who have the ability to pay MORE for every commodity than everyone else.

Who, you may ask, has the ability to pay more for every commodity than anyone else? The banks who create fiat money out of thin air can pay more, because they can print more than anyone else can earn through value adding work.

... and that is one of the reasons why we have inflation. The banks want the power and control all all valuable and income producing assets and do not care about the amount of money they pay for things ... if they need more they will print more. Ironically they then use their recently purchased commodity as collateral (think China copper) ... at the new marked to fiat market price so that they can print even more fiat shitpaper.

Why not shorten the manipulators list to Rothschild, Rockefeller, Warburg, House of Windsor, and Royal Dutch Shell? No need to worry about 'temporary employees' or shell corporations to pinpoint the real criminals here.

Hey at least George Washington talks about this conspiracy fact that no one wishes to talk about because if they learned the truth they would find out that very second that they have been lied to all their life.

Hey you called it a conspiracy theory without even looking at it twice.

Do not think this has to do with a conspiracy theory,

But think of it as symbolic.

One is the main peasant ignorance which is Illuminati blame.

And one could mean something really deep and powerful with to do with the esoteric.

Apparently so. Now we know why everything has yellow #4 and high fructose corn syrup in it. Why psychics are generally ridiculed as fakes (maybe most of them are). I have had my own experiences with this and "I (want to) believe"

All very interesting. However, the Rothschild thing at the end of the article seems a non-sequiter - thrown in to accomplish what? The bank quit the Fix in 2003. I don't see the association that the editor seems to be trying to make.

And making a whip of cords, Jesus drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. And he told those who sold the pigeons, "Take these things away; do not make my Father's house a house of trade."

They say the gold is a relic, but Rockefellers own the biggest gold mine on the world, the Grasberg Mine in West Papua. They did not dare to fuck up the whole country by digging the shiny stuff out of the mountains.It's really sad, those fuckers control not only the mines, but the banking and the deep state of US also. This "fix" looks like a child game compared to that.

Good luck, bigsheep66, you've got it in front of you. Just learn from the Ukraine, what with the burning and murder of fellow human beings by supposedly civilized people and prepare for the worst of humanity. It's sad but real. Can anyone imagine young girls, in your town or city, filling molotoves for their male counterparts to use as incendiary devices to kill fellow citizens in your previously domesticated hometown? I bet the folks in that building as well as the perpetrators didn't either.

There is only a minority that is interested and the big mass is nothing but disinterested. They don't care.

But the satanic forces managed to make the stupid mass believe it was clever and intelligent and so it began to overthrow their leaders. Now the sheeple are without any protection and are sinking deeper and deeper into the satanic NWO, while they demand even more "freedom".

But the problem is not the lack of freedom. The problem is the stupidity of the masses and that they do not recognize that they are incapable to overcome these forces on their own, that they need leaders that guide them.

There's more people awake now than ever before...never forget our numbers only grow larger...

As a millennial myself I suggest you find a way to start prepping in any way possible. I'm leaving my insurance job in Chicago to move to rural Wisconsin. I'll have enough savings lined up to find work before I run out but I'm going to start prepping there in the wilderness. I do not care how long it takes because I know our generation will live to see it and that's good enough for me to know i'm wasting my life in this pathetic rat-race for a shit currency when I could be out on 40 acres of untammed land in my cabin beginning my journey to self-sustainment.

You can do it too if you just work and save all your money. All the info is already out there on the internet! The prepping community is gigantic. There's cheap land in rural areas all over and rates are still low if you cant save that much cash. But research wisely!

What you are talking about is a mass without leadership and therefore without any target. And you don't even recognize the problem! You believe in the LIE, that the average Joe could change things. He can't. You can't. And I can't. All we could do, was to find a leader and help him to unite the individuals to one will and one power. That could work.

No, it shows the destroyed crowns of the gentile's kings. "You shall kill the best of the goyim."

The satanic forces managed to make the stupid mass believe it was clever and intelligent and it began to overthrow their leaders. Now the sheeple are without any protection and are sinking deeper and deeper into the satanic NWO, while they demand even more "freedom".

But the problem is not the lack of freedom. The problem is the stupidity of the masses and that they do not recognize that they are incapable to overcome these forces on their own, that they need leaders that guide them.