@Piper Maru - the mention of courtly love jogged my memory of the class where we studied that whole school of literature/concept of romantic love during the Medieval Era. Including how Mary Wollstonecraft wrote her Vindication of the Rights of Women in response to those gender roles and concepts of romantic love as "hey this is kind of f**ked up for both men and women and it would actually be a lot healthier and productive for both groups if women were freed from these restrictive roles." And after that class I took one on Romanticism where we read Frankenstein (Wollstonecraft's daughter Mary Shelley!) and about the Romantic movement. I don't know if my professors would be pleased or concerned that I'm remembering all of this stuff in the context of Star Wars (the prof who taught the class where we went through courtly love and Wollstonecraft's writings also had us read The Tempest, which was my first thought about Ache-to. He's friends w/Sir Patrick Stewart so he'd probably be amused).

Like I've said, my baseline is simply that these two characters have a central and critical relationship to the ST which is how the Force is brought into balance and things are "made right." Especially after seeing TFA 2 months after its release and then reading all of the ridiculous comments about how they're cousins, she survived the Jedi Academy massacre, he's going to get eeeeevvvvilller, and that she'll kill him. The fact that they're being so scarce with what's shown means that something is going to happen between the two of them that's critical to the story.

@snufkin wrote:I'm confused, I thought that this was the topic for exploring the possible routes for how the central relationship that these two characters are going to have (intertwined destinies, two trains colliding) will unfold without it being romantic. Like all the different possibilities, such as having to work together to bring the balance of the Force, larger purpose with the Balance and making things right. Those theories are interesting and even in terms of English, the word Romantic means more than just smooching. But reading the past page or so, this is more like a huge buzzkill of getting pre-emptively depressed over something that hasn't even happened yet.

Thank you. The dynamic between Rey and Kylo already shows several elements of Romanticism. The association with nature (they always meet in forests, Kylo mentions oceans and islands in her mind) is one of them, which is inherently sensual and associated with sublime. All their interactions display raw emotion, another characteristic of romantic stories. There's also the little thing about "destinies intertwined", which goes back to the core of romance: someone out there who is your One and Only, someone whose fate is tied to yours and there's nothing you can do about it. It's been discussed to death, but even classic love/sexual tropes are used: bridal carry, death and the maiden, class difference, dark vs. light, dreaming of things to come, etc. So, honestly, kissing and living happily ever after would be a bonus, but it's not necessary.

It's funny that we're discussing a non-romantic relationship. The BTS footage with apparent Reylo tag team fight, the Red Riding Hood poster, the possibility of Kylo switching sides, etc. sealed the deal for me. Since the BTS footage, I've even started to think we might get a Reylo snog out of this movie, after all.

So, I saw this drawing by Dave Filoni of Ahsoka and Kanan. I know there was already the idea that Kylo and Rey could be like Anakin and Ahsoka, but Ahsoka and Kanan sounds fitting to me too mainly because they are more "equals" than Anakin and Ahsoka and inspire each other to do the right thing. Just as in this drawing, Rey could be giving the legacy saber back to Ben at the end of IX having inspired each other to do the right thing and to bring back balance.

Btw, the full story Ahsoka / Kanan has never really been told. At least to my knowledge and Dave Filoni seems to say so too so he's filling a gap for fans through a tweeted drawing.

@Kylo Men wrote:It's funny that we're discussing a non-romantic relationship. The BTS footage with apparent Reylo tag team fight, the Red Riding Hood poster, the possibility of Kylo switching sides, etc. sealed the deal for me. Since the BTS footage, I've even started to think we might get a Reylo snog out of this movie, after all.

With all the clues we got, Kylo's redemption is nearly sure. I have always pointed out the similarities between Kylo/Rey and E.T./Elliott's relationship. So maybe that their relationship is supposed to remain platonic with Kylo and Rey getting some bitterweet ending like E.T. and Elliott? They would be separated but somehow "still here".

Now, the question is how both Kyl and Rey are going to evolve regarding emotions. I think that Rey could indeed handle her emotions and act wise like Padme regarding the matter of getting romantically involved or not with Ben. But I doubt that Ben could become wise and controled enough to remove/ignore his feelings toward her.

The poor thing is so starved for love that it is difficult right now to imagine that he wouldn't develop some kind of passionate feelings for the girl he was infatuated in TFA. We can also point out that the Jedi-way consisting in forbidding attachments proved to be destructive in the past. And Ben is a perfect victim of this way since he was the pupil of both Luke and Snoke, whose visions aren't regarding that matter ain't that different. We know from the TFA novel that Snoke tries hard to prevent Kylo to develop any emotional bond and that he is completely failing! So could someone like Ben who never could control his feelings toward people be able to make evolve his infatuation for Rey to random friendship?

Plus, we may be wrong about our interpretation of their interactions in both the interrogation and the cliff scene but it seems that they already sort of "made love" through the Force: he entered her mind; she entered his; they know each other in an "intimate" way, maybe even more intimate than if they had actually slept together. Even in real life, it is hard to imagine that two persons who would have shared an intimate moment so early after their encounter would act like anything happened between them. That's why, I rather imagine Kylo and Rey acting sort of tense, embarrassed and confused like two persons who slept together and don't know how to handle it later.

Being starved for love does not automatically mean romantic love will satisfy your craving for love. Actually there are quite a lot of people searching for their romantic soulmates their whole lives when they had love all around them but chased after a movie-type romance. I know it's a movie and not RL, but Ben seems to me craving more for his family's recognition even though he says differently. That's not a wound you heal that easily even with a partner who loves you. I still believe redemption is the biggest development for Ben. Becoming the legacy son / nephew and fighting for the greater good. Rey will probably help him in some way, but whether that means they end up in a romantic relationship, who knows. I said it before but I personally don't need their relationship to be defined.

I do think that a passionate person like Ben can actually become friends with Rey. Why not? Infatuation is not love and infatuation does not always lead to love. Once you get to know the person, you might realize that it was only infatuation. Yes, I know it's a movie. Still, I think that said movie might be more realistic than expected so we could get an "infatuation turn into friendship" scenario. There's a sense of war movie in the BTS reel - I was not expecting this. Does a BatB type of relationship fit in a war movie? I don't see it. For now I am sticking to my subdued Reylo and open door as the most viable Reylo scenario until TLJ. Nothing I have seen so far has given me a super romantic Reylo vibe.

The biggest enigma remains Rey. What does she want? What is her role? What is her development as a character? This has quite an impact on where the story will go and what her relationship to Kylo. And in spite of seeing Rey everywhere, I personally still have no sense of where she fits in the bigger story except maybe mending the Skywalker family. Maybe that's all there is, but it sounds a bit thin.

Personally, I don't see Kylo as being in love with Rey or even infatuated. He is fascinated and he senses there's something special about her even before her force ability is revealed, but love? I'd say romantic love it's not what he craves anymore than Rey does. Both of them have so many other pressing issues to get to grips with first. I know attraction and love don't always strike at times in life when you're ready for it, but still, I don't see Reylo as being the selfish and reckless kind of relationship we got with Anakin and Padme. Rey and Kylo aren't Han and Leia, either. Much depends on what happens with Kylo, how his redemption is handled and what his atonement will be. Intertwined fates could mean so many things and romantic love doesn't really fit with what we are seeing and hearing so far.

I think "intertwined fates" is a very specific way of saying "this person is the one that matters". While it doesn't need to be sexual, it displays an aspect of transcendence and unicity, and that is inherently romantic.

@Piper Maru When I saw the trailer in 70mm yesterday, with the full surround sound they really hammer home both of their musical motifs in establishing shots. So it's very much saying that it's a story about these two people, who are the Light and the Dark.

@reylo1992 wrote:he entered her mind; she entered his; they know each other in an "intimate" way, maybe even more intimate than if they had actually slept together. Even in real life, it is hard to imagine that two persons who would have shared an intimate moment so early after their encounter would act like anything happened between them. That's why, I rather imagine Kylo and Rey acting sort of tense, embarrassed and confused like two persons who slept together and don't know how to handle it later.

Thank you! That moment is romantic not because they got anywhere near each other's genitals, but because of the intimacy and intensity of it.

@snufkin wrote:@Piper Maru When I saw the trailer in 70mm yesterday, with the full surround sound they really hammer home both of their musical motifs in establishing shots. So it's very much saying that it's a story about these two people, who are the Light and the Dark.

@reylo1992 wrote:he entered her mind; she entered his; they know each other in an "intimate" way, maybe even more intimate than if they had actually slept together. Even in real life, it is hard to imagine that two persons who would have shared an intimate moment so early after their encounter would act like anything happened between them. That's why, I rather imagine Kylo and Rey acting sort of tense, embarrassed and confused like two persons who slept together and don't know how to handle it later.

Thank you! That moment is romantic not because they got anywhere near each other's genitals, but because of the intimacy and intensity of it.

With comments from JJ using the words "destinies intertwined" when describing an attractive young man and woman, I have a very hard time seeing that as just a platonic relationship. Combine that with the close up on their faces during the cliff side that looked more like a love scene than a fight, and the point is driven home even further.

Yes, I'm sure TLJ will tackle first Kylo's struggle and regret with killing his father, but his attraction to Rey in TFA was plain as day, even if he himself didn't realize it

_________________"By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced."

@snufkin wrote:@Piper Maru When I saw the trailer in 70mm yesterday, with the full surround sound they really hammer home both of their musical motifs in establishing shots. So it's very much saying that it's a story about these two people, who are the Light and the Dark.

@reylo1992 wrote:he entered her mind; she entered his; they know each other in an "intimate" way, maybe even more intimate than if they had actually slept together. Even in real life, it is hard to imagine that two persons who would have shared an intimate moment so early after their encounter would act like anything happened between them. That's why, I rather imagine Kylo and Rey acting sort of tense, embarrassed and confused like two persons who slept together and don't know how to handle it later.

Thank you! That moment is romantic not because they got anywhere near each other's genitals, but because of the intimacy and intensity of it.

With comments from JJ using the words "destinies intertwined" when describing an attractive young man and woman, I have a very hard time seeing that as just a platonic relationship. Combine that with the close up on their faces during the cliff side that looked more like a love scene than a fight, and the point is driven home even further.

Yes, I'm sure TLJ will tackle first Kylo's struggle and regret with killing his father, but his attraction to Rey in TFA was plain as day, even if he himself didn't realize it

Even though I keep myself in check all the time: the so-called villainous crash is the reason why I'am here. Plain as day. From acting to the tropes being used. Maybe he wasn't madly in love, but attracted definitely.

@Piper Maru wrote:I think "intertwined fates" is a very specific way of saying "this person is the one that matters". While it doesn't need to be sexual, it displays an aspect of transcendence and unicity, and that is inherently romantic.

Ask 10 people about their definition of romance and chances are that you'll get 10 different answers if you press them. The first reaction will probably be to describe it the old Diney fairy tale way but then if you go to the bottom of it, you will start getting a variety of interpetations. I know some people who've had 10 true romances in their lives. I know some who don't feel like they ever had a true romance. It's like defining soulmates. Some will consider also friends as soulmates - I do - some can only see soulmates if romance is involved. To me what makes a romance is that on top of that soulmate feeling you have an attraction. If not what you described could be applied to friends and even brothers and/or sisters. I know a few twins and I am pretty sure their twin brother or sister is the most important person for them. There's a broad SW audience to satisfy which was served Han / Leia and Anakin / Padme and gets fed romances in different forms all over TV and movies. And so I wonder if LF wants to add this kind of complexity to its already complex story. I don't know.

The villainous crush is also why I am here and I've never changed my view on that. Still I am not convinced that we will get a romantic Reylo. And since it's a non-romantic thread to consider other options, I consider the option that the villainous crush could end up being another type of bond that is more in the line of a spiritual / emotional one than a romantic one. In the end there's still the possibility that JJ went overboard with the villainous crush because that was his idea and RJ goes another way. Obviously he cannot put it completely upside down, but he can slightly change the direction.

I have to say at this point I have a hard time seeing romantic Reylo in TLJ without it looking off with a vast majority of the GA not even seeing the villainous crush and so many characters and plot points to clarify. Also I have a hard time seeing it as the big thing of the ST, because LF can then start counting the loss of cash from losing a chunk of its audience. But then if it's not the big thing, can you still include a mild Reylo without making it look like a bonus? I don't know. Time will tell. In December we'll know what they went for.

And now I am off to watch Kong: Skull Island which finally downloaded to my computer.

I'd hesitate to say that Kylo is in love with Rey at the moment; drawn to her and intrigued, yes. But I just find it hard to see how these feelings will not eventually turn to love. SW movies are honestly not that complicated in terms of emotions.

I would add to everything since my last post that of course that the question of the alternative to romantic Reylo is legitimate. I agree that there are plenty alternative to some romantic involvement between them like some special friendship a la Anakin/Obi-Wan, Anakin/Ahsoka, E.T./Elliott, etc... and thus that it makes sense to have a thread dedicated to this topic.

@Sangha Ren wrote:There's a sense of war movie in the BTS reel - I was not expecting this. Does a BatB type of relationship fit in a war movie? I don't see it. For now I am sticking to my subdued Reylo and open door as the most viable Reylo scenario until TLJ. Nothing I have seen so far has given me a super romantic Reylo vibe

@Sangha Ren I agree with you that being starved for love doesn't necessarily mean that Kylo would search for romantic love and see Rey as his potential partner. The question that you ask whether a BaBT type of relationship would fit in a war movie is legitimate. I would answer that personally I never expected Reylo to happen within the context of some BaBT plot. With all respect due to this fairytale, the story is beautiful but the plot itself is rather poor. The whole focuses how a girl changes a Beast into a Prince again which is a narrow plot when I think about it. I've never ever expected the ST to focus completely on Reylo with no wider storyline than their relationship. That's why, I rather believe in TLJ following the same kind of storyline as a Disney movie like Atlantis in the sense that Milo and Kida's relationship takes place in a much wider storyline involving the fate of the island. For me, it was pretty clear that we wouldn't get with TLJ the storyline where the whole story focuses on the relationship between Kylo and Rey. And thus, I am completely prepared to feel frustrated because they wouldn't get as many scenes as I would like because in a SW relationships evolve within the context of war, so within a wide storyline.

However, it doesn't mean that Kylo and Rey ain't supposed to be Space Beauty and the Beast in a plot that is much bigger than their relationship - so wider than the BatB plot - but that definitely set their relationship as central. That's why, I've decided to remain optimistic despite my impression that Reylos seem kind of resigned since the VF interview. I still believe that the SW crew knew from the beginning what they were doing by making Kylo commit a patricide and entering the heroin's mind and thus took the risk to get Reylo-bashing. No matter what, Kylo was definitely introduced as Space Beast and Rey as Space Belle according to all the evidences that were pointed out on this forum and beyond.

I think that we tend to forget how much the whole marketing strategy has been favorable to romantic Reylo since December 2015 and especially within the last months. I believe that the SW has a clear communication strategy and that this strategy has been favorable for romantic Reylo in general

1) The audio comments + the SW databank

First, I already mentioned J.J.'s audio comments reminding the audience that TFA has been thought as a space fairytale with a castle, with a Princess ( Rey introduced later as Cinderella) and a Prince (Adam Driver introduced as a Prince). So I guess that the communication strategy with both the audio comments and the changes in the SW databank were meant to emphasize that Rey and Kylo are meant to be the central relationship in a space fairytale without giving away too much.

2) The BatB marketing policy

Then, we got the whole communication around Beauty and the Beast with so many parallels with Reylo:1) The visual/audio parallels of the second BatB trailer with TFA2) Emma Watson's appearance in Rey's style at some BatB event (nobody will convince me that it wasn't intentional)3) The common TFA/BabT marketing policy (books, soundtrack, etc...)4) Josh Gad from the BatB cast making a video where Daisy is asked "what's the deal with Reylo?" (nobody will convince me either that Judi Dench wasn't specifically told to ask this question) and then being part of the SW celebration5) The BabT movie itself (i.e. the line "I'll come back...I promise")

Not only were Rey and Kylo set as Beauty and the Beast in TFA and but it still seems to be the case with TLJ since the marketing policy has continued to set parallels until BabT came to the theater last March. Reminder that Rian was done with the shooting a long time before BaTB was released so if the BatB parallel wasn't canon anyore, then why this strange intertwined marketing policy I don't mean that we couldn't get some platonic version of Beauty and the Beast with Reylo. After all, Disney recently made several movies where love doesn't necessarily involves romance (i.e. Maleficient's true love kiss to Aurora) or where friendship is more important (i.e. Elsa from Frozen).

Still, I rather believe that we would rather get with Reylo what they tried to set with the 2017 BatB version. Emma Watson herself insisted that it was important to have a slow-burn romance between Belle and Beast. She said that it was important that in this 2017 version - contrary to the 1991 one - the two characters first despise other, then develop a friendship and only then come to love each other. This means that Disney was very aware about the criticism regarding Belle and Beast's relationship in the 1991 version and wanted to take account of that.

3) The "sad-puppy"villain marketing policy

So the marketing policy has obviously worked hard to prepare the audience for (romantic) Reylo but it isn't enough: - They may have reminded with J.J.'s comments that SW is kind of a fairytale with a Prince and a Princess...- They may have set Kylo and Rey as the central relationship of the ST...- They have set the parallels with BatB...- They may have introduce the notion of "Reylo" to the audience...

...they still have a major issue to solve: the Beast from BatB may have a bad temper but he never ever committed a patricide nor did he entered Belle's mind. The problem isn't to have Rey fall in love with someone but to have her fall in love with someone who ain't worthy of her attention. Within the last months, the marketing policy has been trying very hard to introduce TLJ Kylo as a sad puppy. Why wouldn't they simply hide him since they want to show him as few as possible

Honestly, if Kylo was supposed to be redeemed just for his mother's love and/or Rey's friendship, I think that the SW crew would have decided to keep his redemption a complete secret. If the "monster " wasn't supposed to get romantically involved, they could have made his redemption path a complete surprise by showing him in the posters and the BTS video with his mask or with a menacing attitude. And yet, they decided that it was important to show him without his mask, choosing/designing carefully the images portraying him as a young, handsome, sad and vulnerable young man, which in itself represents a huge spoiler for the audience and a shock for the Anti-Kylo/Reylo. I don't see why LF would prepare the audience for Kylo's redemption if it is only to prepare the audience to have him come back for his mother and then going to exil alone. My feeling is that the SW marketing team is only pursuing its marketing policy to prepare the audience to the possibility of romantic Reylo without giving away too much.

d) The unexpected "Romance" gate

So it seems that everything proceeded as we had foreseen until the VF interview came into picture. Despite the legitimate reactions, I still believe that there is too much concern regarding what Rian said about romance. The VF interview and the marketing policy beyond should be considered in a larger context.

My headcanon about this matter is that the SW marketing policy has another big issue besides the way Kylo is considered by some part of the audience. A much larger audience believes that TLJ will be a poor remake of ESB because they considered TFA as a remake of ANH. They focused so much on this aspect in the BTS video and this was also the case in the VF interview. Rian tried to make it clear that TLJ wouldn't copy ESB and that this applied to romance with no "one-to-one equivalent to Han to Leia's relationship".

However, it is clear that Rian missed his goal and that he was pretty upset that the lines were misinterpreted and that this outshined his original message. Obviously, the idea that TLJ would be a ESB remake is a sensitive issue. Let's keep in mind how Adam had to give some extra explanation because he said that TLJ was different from TFA as ESB was different from ANH...but the journalist and the audience misunderstood that TLJ would be like ESB! So Rian apparently didn't expect that his lines would be misinterpreted and was obviously pretty upset with it.

I mean, he could have just ignored these tweets about people wondering about the meaning of his lines and yet he considered that it was important to avoid misunderstanding regarding what he said. And I think that the best proof that romantic Reylo is still canon is in this answer:I don't mean that this is impossible that this guy referred to any other ship than Reylo but honestly to who refer the "stupid, delusional women" other than Reylos? 1) FinnPoes:?: It certainly disturbs homophobics but it is neither considered as the fantasm of delusional women nor represent a ship whose relationship is central to the plot2) FinnReys It certainly disturbs racists but otherwise I don't why this ship would disturb people because after all Finn and Rey's dynamic is widely appreciated3) FinnRoses:?: It certainly disturbs people who ships FinnRey but Rose being a newly introduced character and Finn being the third character, their relationship ain't meant to be centralMy conclusion is that Reylo is the only ship (mainly supported by "stupid,delusional women") who endanger the conception that that kind of guy have of SW. They want the weak villain to become even more evil, even more ruthless toward the heroin and become a bad*** Vader n°2. They see Reylo - and Rey - as a threat to this conception. And this guy got a answer from Rian that is anything but evasive. Rian could have simply ignored or answered that it was sexist or simply answered "you'll see!". And yet, his anwer couldn't have been clearer: "Nope! (I haven't put these stupid, delusional women - Reylos - to place)".

I don't take it as the ultimate proof that romantic Reylo will happen but to me his answer is enough to keep confidence that romantic Reylo is still canon. I think that Rian was right to put things into place regarding romance because we - Reylos - were probably expecting Rey and Kylo to be some remake of Beauty and the Beast or any other story that focus only on love relationship. I think that the way he described romance was his way to remind us that romance take place in a war context and thus in a wider storyline. Thus, he avoids us - and other shippers - to come to the theaters expecting tons of romantic scenes. However, even if he made clear that any romantic relationship will happen - in the sense of unexpected kiss in the middle of the movie and declaration of love later like Anidala and Hanleia - it doesn't mean that nobody will develop romantic feelings. Plus, I don't think that we should bother that much about Rian being less influenced by fairytale than J.J.Abrams because fairytale wasn't part of J.J.'s universe either and Rey's poster wasa clear vcallback to LRRH.

Since the whole marketing policy has been pretty favorable to romantic Reylo from the beginning until now even with the "Romancegate", I still firmly believe that there is no major reason to think that LF ain't interested anymore in romantic Reylo and thus made the story evolve in another direction even if it makes sense to reflect upon non-romantical alternatives.

I posted that in the film recommendation thread, but I could see an open-to-interpretation working partnership for Reylo in a similar way to Mason and Conrad. I quote myself *patting my own shoulder*

And a terrible side-effect of being involved in that forum , I always end up making connections to TLJ. Skull Island made me think of what Ahch-To could be like. And the relationship Conrad-Mason made me think of what Reylo could be like pointing to a "maybe" but the after-credit also suggests a working partnership, which sounds like a good fit for Reylo to me.

After the movie, I just had this funny picture in my head - don't know if anyone who saw the movie had it. These are skeptical Kylo (Conrad), good-hearted Rey (Mason) and angry Luke (Kong) ready to defend his island at all costs.

I don't see a pro Reylo marketing. I see the absence of Reylo in the marketing which is interpreted by romantic Reylos as a sign that it's the (big) surprise and it could be true, I never said otherwise.

BatB is a movie on its own and I have difficulties to understand why it is supporting Reylo. I am sure there are plenty of other recent films that would not support romantic Reylo. There was no co-marketing plan from what I could see. It's 2 different movies and 2 different worlds. We can see parallels but seeing BatB as an obvious supporting tool for romantic Reylo is imo a stretch. We would have to analyze every Disney movie coming out in the last 2 years to see a pattern. And the actors drawing parallels does not mean there is really an obvious plan from LF behind it. I'd go to a party with Rey buns. It's a cool hairdo. I think that our idea of LF's marketing strategy is overblown at times and LF must sometimes smile at the intentions we give to them. I just cannot imagine them sitting in a room and conspire the way we sometimes seem to think they do. They are drowning us with books in the next months. Now that's a real cash generating marketing strategy. Books for nearly every age cluster. Kids to grand parents will get their share

The sad puppy marketing is good for Kylo's redemption. It makes it easier for romantic Reylo, that's for sure, but that's it for me right now. And central relationship does not automatically equal romance. Plus some would tell you that RJ himself said the beating heart of TLJ is Rey and Luke. Interwined destinies though sounds more tangible to me because it is in an official database, it makes sense based on TFA, it is implied by the poster and if only because they are with Luke and Snoke the only force sensitive people so far and are the new generation so they can only crash into each other again and have an interwined destiny.

You know, we could go back and forth and destroy each other's arguments, but I don't see that as very productive. Although it could also be fun... Toi et moi sur le ring maintenant And we're actually not on opposite sides but just have a different perspective. I think - shout if I am wrong - that you lean more towards a romantic Reylo than I do so our reading is tainted, whether we like it or not, by our liking. I have nothing against Romantic Reylo unless it's cheezy and looks off. Then I'll probably resent LF a little. I just see more and more movies where the relationship between male lead and female lead is left open. And I think this could also be answering a trend of more people, and I'd say especially women, not being only interested in clear-cut romances and being quite happy with 2 strong characters working together without the mandatory smooching that was so prevalent in the last decades. But again, time will tell.

I don't see a pro Reylo marketing. I see the absence of Reylo in the marketing which is interpreted by romantic Reylos as a sign that it's the (big) surprise and it could be true, I never said otherwise.

BatB is a movie on its own and I have difficulties to understand why it is supporting Reylo. I am sure there are plenty of other recent films that would not support romantic Reylo. There was no co-marketing plan from what I could see. It's 2 different movies and 2 different worlds. We can see parallels but seeing BatB as an obvious supporting tool for romantic Reylo is imo a stretch. We would have to analyze every Disney movie coming out in the last 2 years to see a pattern. And the actors drawing parallels does not mean there is really an obvious plan from LF behind it. I'd go to a party with Rey buns. It's a cool hairdo. I think that our idea of LF's marketing strategy is overblown at times and LF must sometimes smile at the intentions we give to them. I just cannot imagine them sitting in a room and conspire the way we sometimes seem to think they do. They are drowning us with books in the next months. Now that's a real cash generating marketing strategy. Books for nearly every age cluster. Kids to grand parents will get their share

The sad puppy marketing is good for Kylo's redemption. It makes it easier for romantic Reylo, that's for sure, but that's it for me right now. And central relationship does not automatically equal romance. Plus some would tell you that RJ himself said the beating heart of TLJ is Rey and Luke. Interwined destinies though sounds more tangible to me because it is in an official database, it makes sense based on TFA, it is implied by the poster and if only because they are with Luke and Snoke the only force sensitive people so far and are the new generation so they can only crash into each other again and have an interwined destiny.

You know, we could go back and forth and destroy each other's arguments, but I don't see that as very productive. Although it could also be fun... Toi et moi sur le ring maintenant And we're actually not on opposite sides but just have a different perspective. I think - shout if I am wrong - that you lean more towards a romantic Reylo than I do so our reading is tainted, whether we like it or not, by our liking. I have nothing against Romantic Reylo unless it's cheezy and looks off. Then I'll probably resent LF a little. I just see more and more movies where the relationship between male lead and female lead is left open. And I think this could also be answering a trend of more people, and I'd say especially women, not being only interested in clear-cut romances and being quite happy with 2 strong characters working together without the mandatory smooching that was so prevalent in the last decades. But again, time will tell.

Re: the bolded - are people really less interested in romance, or do people just make do with fanfiction these days if they don't get what they hoped for? Fanfiction, and especially romantic fanfiction, is such a popular pastime nowadays that it tells me interest in romance hasn't really gone anywhere. But people have got used to providing it for themselves - and for each other - if they're not getting it from canon. And from my observation, there's this underlying assumption of "oh well, at least we'll always have fanfic": people expect less from canon. Expect it not to deliver.

Don't get me wrong, there are a ton of stories that don't need any romance at all. Subtle, barely noticeable "what if..." romance dynamics have their place as well. But much of the time, it feels like a frustrating cop-out to introduce fairly obvious romance dynamics with all the tropes and chemistry and then go nowhere with them. It feels like people don't have the courage to tell love stories anymore. Because it does take courage, and creativity, and flair, to write a romance that doesn't seem tacked-on, paint-by-the-numbers and/or cheesy. It takes emotional intelligence and it's not at all easy.

Perhaps it's easier to outsource the romance to the audience's own fanfic fantasies.

There is one more possibility I have been considering regarding Rey and Kylo's relationship.....every trilogy till now has had one romance in it....Rey is only 19 in TFA and Kylo has a long redemption journey and he is also still a young man.

I wonder if they will make Finn-Rose the romance of this trilogy but work on building Rey and Kylo's relationship through the next two movies....at the end of the trilogy, it could be implied that there are feelings between them but either Rey or Kylo need to leave to complete some mission/exile. Then, a couple of years after episode IX..they could have a fourth trilogy where they reunite and the focus could be on Rey and Kylo's romance.

On another note, I find the suggestion of Rey and Kylo having an Ahsoka-Kanan relationship quite interesting (don't get me wrong- Rey and Kylo having a romance is my #1 option...this is a hypothetical discussion of other possibilities). Kanan also made mistakes in his life and was scarred by order 66 (including losing a parent figure) before he joined the rebellion.....Ahsoka on the other hand was literally and figuratively dedicated to the light and giving hope to others...so I can actually see Rey being an inspirational figure for Kylo and them working together for the same cause, and having a deep friendship as well.

Two things I think are reaching to a crazy degree are a) Any link between the Beauty and The Beast movie and The Last Jedi (specifically Reylo) and b) Seeing hearts in everything. Speculate away but personally I cannot take anything seriously that makes arguments for either of those. There are fairytale elements in Rey and Kylo's dynamic, I'm not denying that and JJ himself alluded to them in his commentary. But to say the Disney BATB movie was intended in anyway to connect to Reylo... Nope. The seeing hearts in everything just reminds me of that Twitter account Faces In Things. Our brains are kinda wired to look for patterns in stuff but all the Rey and Kylo are surrounded by hearts misses the fact that there are probably such patterns everywhere if you isolated certain scenes to look for them. There is plenty of visual support and narrative evidence for Reylo without seeing stuff that just isn't there, IMO.

Anyway, if we got Rey and Kylo having this kind of moment, I'd be more than o.k with it...

[size=57]I dunno about people being 'less interested' in romance. The attitude to romance in the West as far as I have seen has been 'ew, thats for fan girls'. Whereas, for example, in my own country, people won't see a movie if it doesn't have a romance plot, and movies where romantic relationships aren't a focus never do half as well as movies that do focus on romance. When I say romance in this context, I mean super in-your-face romance...thats why commercial Bollywood movies are so popular here ( because they're fun, cheesy and not very subtle with their romances). And this is a country where men make up the majority of movie theater audiences![/size][size=57]I don't want to speak for ALL societies around the world though, but I think recently, LF have been making a bit of an effort to appeal to countries outside of the US and Europe....[/size][size=57]I'm not saying that they HAVE to include a traditional or overtly romantic plotline...but it PAYS [/size][size=57]if people wanted to see space battles or cool action scenes...well then, you can basically look to any movie franchise for that...its not only Star Wars that offers that. [/size][size=57]There has to be something special about Star Wars that sets it apart....and it has to come from the characters. A well written romance can do wonders!!! [/size]

I think the dynamics have changed and even if there were BATB references in TFA, they are not stretching it to be a similar story. I don't see Kylo as a monster anymore, and if I would have to guess, the dynamics, if romantic could be similar to Pride and Prejudice.

@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Two things I think are reaching to a crazy degree are a) Any link between the Beauty and The Beast movie and The Last Jedi (specifically Reylo) and b) Seeing hearts in everything. Speculate away but personally I cannot take anything seriously that makes arguments for either of those. There are fairytale elements in Rey and Kylo's dynamic, I'm not denying that and JJ himself alluded to them in his commentary. But to say the Disney BATB movie was intended in anyway to connect to Reylo... Nope. The seeing hearts in everything just reminds me of that Twitter account Faces In Things. Our brains are kinda wired to look for patterns in stuff but all the Rey and Kylo are surrounded by hearts misses the fact that there are probably such patterns everywhere if you isolated certain scenes to look for them. There is plenty of visual support and narrative evidence for Reylo without seeing stuff that just isn't there, IMO.

Anyway, if we got Rey and Kylo having this kind of moment, I'd be more than o.k with it...

@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Two things I think are reaching to a crazy degree are a) Any link between the Beauty and The Beast movie and The Last Jedi (specifically Reylo) and b) Seeing hearts in everything. Speculate away but personally I cannot take anything seriously that makes arguments for either of those. There are fairytale elements in Rey and Kylo's dynamic, I'm not denying that and JJ himself alluded to them in his commentary. But to say the Disney BATB movie was intended in anyway to connect to Reylo... Nope. The seeing hearts in everything just reminds me of that Twitter account Faces In Things. Our brains are kinda wired to look for patterns in stuff but all the Rey and Kylo are surrounded by hearts misses the fact that there are probably such patterns everywhere if you isolated certain scenes to look for them. There is plenty of visual support and narrative evidence for Reylo without seeing stuff that just isn't there, IMO.

Anyway, if we got Rey and Kylo having this kind of moment, I'd be more than o.k with it...

Overall I do appreciate your posts very much, and I must say I didn't take personally anything you've said, because I've never seen any single heart and do not think BATB = Reylo, but I really do not get why you're so irritated by people who obviously have a lot of fun by analyzing that stuff, the way they want and the way they like. Maybe it looks crazy to you, and maybe those posters who sees the things that way would end disappointed but that's their problem.

Let them be Mrs Ben Solo, we're here to have fun not to point to each other how to think or how to see things.