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I don't mind that he took the deferments. I really don't - Clinton did, and if I was in that era I bet my cowardly hide I'd try to keep from going to fight a pointless and stupid war.

However - what does piss me off is when Romney makes statements about how he'd have served "if he'd been allowed to." How shook his pom-poms for the war, and rallied in favor of it - and then sat back and said "Ah geez I'd love to go but I just can't!"

That's the part that irritates me. You don't get to sit back and cry about how much you love the country and the US troops and how if you "only had been allowed" you'd have gone off and fought for America and how you thought it was a great idea - when history shows that you sat out the sidelines, not because you were physically unable or unwilling.

That's the aggravating part. Either own his reasons why he and his family are immune to sacrificing for the things he says he believes in, or come out and admit "I thought it was a stupid idea for me to be in the war and I used my connections to stay out of it."

I don't know if you understand my anecdote or maybe I wasn't clear. This was a guy, in his 50s talking, in around the year 2000, supporting the war in Vietnam and saying he would have been proud to serve IF ONLY HIS DRAFT NUMBER HADN'T BEEN SO HIGH.

Their is a congressman whose name I forget that said he would have served but minorities took all the slots. I will leave it to you to guess what his party affiliation is. We might be talking about the same guy, but the excuses sound a little bit different.

I just found the story. Surprisingly hard to find such an asshole comment.

"He and Quayle, DeLay explained to the assembled media in New Orleans, were victims of an unusual phenomenon back in the days of the undeclared Southeast Asian war. So many minority youths had volunteered for the well-paying military positions to escape poverty and the ghetto that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself. Satisfied with the pronouncement, which dumbfounded more than a few of his listeners who had lived the sixties, DeLay marched off to the convention."

He protested in favor of the war he didn't fight in. He thought it was a good enough cause to get other people to die for, but not him. That's the problem. If he didn't go and protested against the war, I wouldn't mind.

It's the hypocrisy. For instance, there are gay Democrats and gay Republicans, but the gay Democrats don't generally vote to oppress gay people while pretending to be straight. That's why all those Republicans sucking dick in mens' restrooms deserve to be reviled, not because they're gay or Republican or like to suck random cocks, but because they're hypocrites.

And the best response to that excuse is, "Then we don't fucking need them". If the only job of representatives is to "vote for their constituents", they can be replaced by a series of Internet polls for a lot less cash.

Reps are supposed to research and understand complex issues that their constituents by-and-large do not have either the time or capacity to comprehend. They are supposed to promote the best interests of their district, not just their opinions. Joe Sixpack doesn't know how ACTA will affect him, but his Rep certainly should.

Eh, yes and no. The amount of mis- and disinformation that flies around at election time makes the idea that direct democracy would be less corruptible a bit questionable.

And then there's the question of the average citizen. As I believe George Carlin put it, think of how stupid the average person is, and then remember that, mathematically, half the population must be dumber than that. Not sure I'd want those people directly deciding the current policy towards China. Plus, how often would the polls be held, how long would they stay open, who would write the questions, etc.? It's a complex problem.

What enrages me is that he staged counter-protests at anti-draft protests at Stanford.

It's one thing to get a draft deferment. It's quite another to criticize other students who are eligible to be sent off to a war they don't support while being exempt from being sent yourself.

Also, why do we have religious draft deferments anyway? Getting drafted would have fucked up Romney's missionary plans, but I'm pretty sure everyone who gets drafted had other life plans that get fucked up. Fucked up permanently if the kid is KIA.

Came here to say this. Dodging a draft for a stupid war is fine -- this whole "nationalist/patriotic duty" stuff is a load of horseshit -- but being pro-conscription when you yourself dodge the draft is ridiculous.

Romney doesn't have a single conviction on any issue at all except for making a profit.

"I was supportive of my country," Romney said. "I longed in many respects to actually be in Vietnam and be representing our country there, and in some ways it was frustrating not to feel like I was there as part of the troops that were fighting in Vietnam."

But he's also said:

“I was not planning on signing up for the military. It was not my desire to go off and serve in Vietnam,"

It's also a qualifier that basically makes the statement meaningless. This is Romney's MO; making statements that are so full of holes that he can slip away from pressure coming from any direction, but that are simultaneously so structurally compromised by those holes that they cease to have any ability to support any political position at all. Romney's whole personal and political philosophy has been a series of camouflaged nets meant to resemble a real structure, but actually consisting of next to nothing. All he really wants is a ready excuse to do whatever his current whim happens to be.

We've already had one of these "not really there" Presidents, and he put us in most of the shit we're currently drowning in.

I do not know why you were down voted. What you said “’In many respects’ is a qualifier that implies that in other respects…” is the 'I' proposition, 'quoddam S est P' (some S are P), of the square of opposition in Aristotelian logic.

I expected something very different. Anybody upvoting this should watch it first, before they blindly agree with the way BdotDS describes it.

Moulitsas didn't "call" Tancredo on anything. He made an underhanded comment stashed in the middle of a sentence that ended with a different point. Tancredo then called him on the way he delivered that barb, and demanded an apology - when Moulitsas wouldn't even acknowledge that he had done it, that's when Tancredo walked off the stage.

It would have been different had his draft dodging been a legitimate part of the issue, but it wasn't. As it was, it served just as an emotional appeal to try and discredit Tancredo via ad hominem.

He used student deferments and then the 31-month "missionary" deferment in France to keep himself out until the US was cutting troop levels in Vietnam. He only let himself get in a drawing when there was virtually no chance of getting called up at all, and even that only seems to have happened when he was completely out of excuses.

Yet he was eligible for a draft when there was active drafting for active combat in Vietnam, he put himself out there and there was a chance he would get unlucky and be drafted. Over 60% of draft eligible men also took advantage of deferments.

I care more about my dog than just about any human being I've met... I've been given the burning building scenario a few times and it turns out saving the dog and letting the people burn isn't the right answer.

Only if you say it out loud. I admitted once that I would save my dog over my friend, but I redeemed myself by explaining that I felt responsible for my dog's wellbeing, etc. It still didn't go over well. I guess I am a sociopath. :/

"After religion ($93.2 billion in 2005), giving to colleges, universities and other educational organizations is the next largest category, totaling $38.6 billion in 2005

The largest percentage increase in 2005 went to human services charities, up 32%, to $25.4 billion. Even if you subtract giving in response to disasters, giving for human services was up 15%.
Giving to environmental and animal protection groups also went up a lot, more than 16%, to nearly $9 billion. Some believe this reflects increasing concern with environmental issues such as global warming.

Overall giving to international charities was up nearly 20%, to $6.4 billion. But when you exclude gifts in response to disasters, international giving dropped 5.1%.

Giving to arts, culture and humanities organizations went down by 6.6% (to a little more than $13 billion) while giving to health-related charities dropped 0.7% (to a little less than $22 billion).
Other categories include giving to foundations (about $24 billion), giving to “public-society benefit” organizations such as United Ways (about $13 billion) and giving to other causes (about $21 billion)."

Animal charity organizations received nowhere NEAR as much money as humanitarian ones.

The United States enlisted 8,744,000 servicemembers between 1964 and 1975. Of those, 3,403,000 were deployed to Southeast Asia. From a pool of approximately 27 million, the draft raised 2,215,000 men for military service during the Vietnam era. It has also been credited with "encouraging" many of the 8.7 million "volunteers" to join rather than risk being drafted.
Of the nearly 16 million men not engaged in active military service, 96% were exempted (typically because of jobs including other military service), deferred (usually for educational reasons), or disqualified (usually for physical and mental deficiencies but also for criminal records to include draft violations). Draft offenders in the last category numbered nearly 500,000 but less than 10,000 were convicted or imprisoned for draft violations. Finally, as many as 100,000 draft eligible males fled the country. Source

So about 2.2 million people served in Vietnam via the draft out of 3.4 million sent there. That was out of a total pool of 27 million. Of that 27 million 16 million had deferments for various reasons. So in actuality the majority of people eligible for the draft had deferments instead of serving. On top of that Romney was actually eligible for the draft Source but drew a high number which ensured that he would not be drafted. That was actually a matter of luck.

In summary, Mitt did what 60% of draft eligible kids did during that period and then he actually was put up for the draft and got lucky.

Pisses me off to the very end. You got assholes like Romney rolling around pretending to be cops and harassing people. You got weirdos like Joe Walsh running around snarking at paraplegic certifiable war vets (male and female). You got jackasses telling me that the only reason I vote or the only reason I served this country is because black people love the hand outs. And then all my GOP friendly co workers look at me like I'm being an obstinate jerkface when I have no love loss for their candidates? It's like living on Bizarro world.

They took a rich kid (George Bush), whose politically connected father got him a coveted spot in the Texas Air Guard where he waited out the war in comfort, and made him the patriot. While taking the other rich kid (John Kerry), whose politically connected family could have gotten him into the Guard but didn't because he wanted to serve his country and in so doing saw action in which soldier's lives were saved, and made him into the political opportunist.

It is just breathtaking! Karl Rove is a master.

The difference is if Obama had sat out the war the Republicans would have it on the front page of every blog and newspaper in the country.

Wasn't he protesting the war he fought in? And were those not medals he earned?

Most signers of the swift boat form did not serve with him and were mad at the protests he attended after the war, which I feel he sure as shit earned the right to do.

Remember, most of the people who organized the whole propaganda swift boat thing up never served a day. Dirty politics, it is so evil.

From Kerry's Wikipedia article:
Eight days later, on February 28, 1969, came the events for which Kerry was awarded his Silver Star. On this occasion, Kerry was in tactical command of his Swift boat and two others in an eight boat formation. Their mission on the Duong Keo river included bringing a demolition team and dozens of South Vietnamese Marines to destroy enemy sampans, structures and bunkers as described in the story The Death Of PCF 43.[39] Running into an ambush, Kerry "directed the boats to turn to the beach and charge the Viet Cong positions" and he "expertly directed" his boat's fire and coordinated the deployment of the South Vietnamese troops, according to the original medal citation (signed by Admiral Zumwalt). Going a short distance farther, Kerry's boat was the target of an RPG round; as the boat beached at the site, a VC with a rocket launcher jumped and ran from a spider hole. While the boat's gunner opened fire, wounding the VC on the leg, and while the other boats approached and offered cover fire, Kerry jumped from the boat and chased the VC and killed him, capturing a loaded rocket launcher.[40][41][41]
Kerry's commanding officer, Lieutenant Commander George Elliott, joked to Douglas Brinkley in 2003 that he didn't know whether to court-martial Kerry for beaching the boat without orders or give him a medal for saving the crew. Elliott recommended Kerry for the Silver Star, and Zumwalt flew into An Thoi to personally award medals to Kerry and the rest of the sailors involved in the mission. The Navy's account of Kerry's actions is presented in the original medal citation signed by Zumwalt. The engagement was documented in an after-action report, a press release written on March 1, 1969, and a historical summary dated March 17, 1969.[42]

From the swift boat article:

No members of SBVT were aboard Kerry's boat during any of the incidents for which he was decorated. The only member of SBVT who was present at the Silver Star incident, Rood's crew member Larry Clayton Lee, praised Kerry's tactics and stated that he earned his Silver Star. However, he stated that based on discussions with other SBVT members, he came to question whether Kerry deserved other medals for incidents at which he was not present

Romney is special. He is rich and privileged. You can not question him because he is so special. Can not expect a a person like him to go to a war, even though he is for it. That is what poor people are for.

I think it's because we are used to these frat boy pussies running away in fear at the slightest hint of danger. Sure they talk big, but *Bush was a cheerleader who spent his 'service' keeping Texas safe from the Veit Cong.

I think this is because Obama himself served no time in the Military, making the issue a political non starter among voters. Especially after the fiasco that was the Bush National Guard story, which ended Dan Rathers’ career at CBS and began the great “liberal media bias,” myth. No liberal Super PAC group is going to spend on this issue, when Romney’s wealth is such an easy target. The dog issue, well...that was sensational primary fodder that really holds no bearing on the electorate other than a few chuckles among liberal bloggers.

Actually, Nixon and Watergate is cited as the reason for the "liberal media". It spawned a generation of reporters who wanted to go all Woodward and Bernstein on politician's asses. So much like there is a "Conservative Gun Store owner" skew, you have a similar reporter skew. But life and science seems to have a "liberal bias" sometimes, even though studies have shown the news is more conservative than the average person.

Obama was 12 when The Vietnam War ended. That did not stop President Obama from serving in the military. However Republicans rally around the wars and in most cases do not serve. President Clinton did not go to Vietnam, but He did not want anyone else to go either.

Frankly, Romney's cheerleading for the VN war is disgusting, impersonating a cop & pulling people over is creepy ,etc. But none of this really matters, in the long run, and won't lose him the election.

Look, I dislike Romney, and don't want him to win, but fight him on policy and what a RW president & congress would mean, particularly the with all the newbie whackjobs that were elected in 2010.

Most people, who are not political junkies, can't get all that worked up about what happened 30 years ago. They really don't care. OTOH, state your objections in ways that demonstrate consequences, that may directly affect them? You might get them to vote (because people just don't).

ETA - even Romney's dog issue. I know a lot of dog lovers, who were really unhappy about the Seamus story, but they're all moved on and pretty much forgotten about it.

I think it's rather weak of us to forget the dog story. It's an indicator of a serious character flaw. Mitt Romney is ok with abusing those he holds power over for any even minimal gain. The fact we're willing to ignore it while deciding whether he should hold power over us makes us all look like idiots.

Don't get me wrong, as a dog/animal nut what Mittens did seriously disturbs me. But at what point do we say "this aspect of his/her personal life is irrelevant?" Can we judge a candidate on how early they wake up? On what hobbies they like? Or what tv shows they watch? Or whether they wear an American flag pin or not?

I know that seems like a stretch, but we have to, on some level, allow personal passes to candidates, my question is at what point should we stop that and just accept or decline someone based on their ideas?

Thing is, all those people who voted in the newbie whackjobs will be voting again this year, and voting for Romney. More trouble is, unfortunately those issues get less traction than all the peripherals.

What he did was consistent with the teaching of his religion, which could cause a problem. Was converting French people to the LDS church really more important to Romney than serving his country in time of war?

Deferments don't make you a draft dodger. According to all the men I know who went and the ones who didn't, nobody went if they didn't have to. Deferments were very common. However, he is a hypocrite for his actions protesting the protestors. His actions don't reflect his statements.

I'm happy he got out and wish all of them had. We need back those 1.7 million dead SE Asian customers and their missing descendants and also still need much of their infrastructure repaired. And think how much stronger and healthier the US would be today if all those American lives had not been disrupted or ended. But it would be interesting to hear his position in view of his father George's position on it. George lost the 1968 GOP nomination to Nixon when a private remark he made against the Vietnam War got out. How much better if he had won than "Notacrook".

The fact that he draft dodged shows hes a coward, but who cares? the fact that he left his dog on the roof of his car during a road trip shows that he is an inhumane monster. One is trying to save your own life, one is actively harming a living creature and seeing nothing wrong with it.

Or that his 5 punk-ass sons, while encouraging others to fight for America, when they will never serve, or bleed, unless it's some internal Mormon schism, for which they still won't bleed, but ask others to.

"I longed in many respects to actually be in Vietnam and be representing our country there."

To me it's really sad that intelligent conservative-thinking Americans allow themselves to ignore that kind of bullshit. I guess Sarah Palin proved that today's conservatives will grasp onto anything that raises a hope of beating "the liberals," but it's sad to see people reduced to that level.

People are surprised about this? Vietnam was a poor man's war, folks. Mostly poor people and minorities were drafted, and most of the people in power either skipped or made excuses that they were too important to leave their country.

Abused a dog or skipped out on doing Heroin and dropping napalm on villages. I'm fine with "the media's" choice (for once). And no I'm not saying every single soldier in Nam did that, I've met a lot of Vietnam vets who are great people.

As it should. The draft was a matter of life and death for these people. If you could have gotten out of it, you should have.

We really need to stop letting Vietnam play so much of a part in elections. We need to stop beating the horses that are these candidates lives in college. Sure an anecdote here or there might give you a clue as to what type of person they were. It might even be relevant to who they are today. But we've got bigger fish to fry. I need a competent President running things. I don't care if I want to have a beer with them. I don't care what kind of spoon they were born with. I want a guy that has a clear agenda for their administration and a clear vision for America. That is where Romney fails and that is what we shoud be focused on.

because plenty of presidents and candidates have done this? Obama didn't serve either it wouldn't do him much good to go after this since he's drone bombing pakistani kids but surely wouldn't go to war himself right?

truth, but I think Romney could beat him out... I think besides all the obvious BS, that scares me most about Romney, he talks about building up the military to a point where no one would think of fucking with us... uhh... how much more do we have to spend!?

I don't think he understands much. He sounds like he just wants to "push the button" when he talks about the military. I think the (D) economic policies will bankrupt us or the (R) military policies... so we're screwed!

It'd be a bigger deal if Obama had also served. It's a little hard to attack a guy for not going into the military when you yourself didn't go into the military. Additionally I think the baby boomers are somewhat burned out on Vietnam. Romney also doesn't look that old. While he's the same age as Clinton/Gore/Bush he honestly doesn't appear that much over 50.

To all of you criticizing Romney: are you claiming that if Obama were the same age as Romney, Obama would have fought in Vietnam and NOT received deferments for his time at university? Really? Obama would have walked away from Columbia and Harvard to go fight in Vietnam? Obama would NOT have applied for student deferments?

I think you're missing the point here. Of course Obama would've gotten deferments but I really doubt he'd be saying he would've have gone to Vietnam "if he'd been allowed to". That just shows you how big of a hypocrite Romney is.

Would it have mattered? Again, I don't see the point in criticizing someone who got student deferments for the war but still supported it. So what? What is the message you are trying to get across? He's not a hypocrite. I can't think of any other message you would want to say about it.

i can understand not wanting to fight in vietnam. i can't understand torturing an animal you love. that's romney. he wants to take the poor and strap them to the roof of the car until they shit themselves.

Obama did not rally to start a war and has kept us out of Iran for the past 4 years. Romney was actually leading pro-Vietnam rallies while dodging the draft and recently said he wished he could have served.

I'm not unfamiliar with the term. Your definition though is a little off, here's the definiton straight from wikipedia.

Chickenhawk (also chicken hawk and chicken-hawk) is a political term used in the United States to describe a person who strongly supports war or other military action (i.e., a War Hawk), yet who actively avoided military service when of age.

While you could argue that through the four deferments that Mitt Romney actively avoided military service when of age. The same argument cannot be made for President Obama. There was no draft that he evaded, he simply didn't sign up in a volunteer army.

That's a point in his favour from my perspective. Funny, I thought most of you agreed. Doesn't pop culture hate the Vietnam war? Congratulations on avoiding it, Mitt. I would've done the same thing in his shoes.
However, I wouldn't believe in Mormonism, because that's just fucking charlitanism.

The problem is war dodger R. Money is big on foreign interventions, military operations and all the other assorted ihaveabigdick asshattery that comes with people who never wore a uniform but think war is cool.

Sorry but I would rather have someone who has seen the elephant in the drivers seat than someone who was too chickenshit to put their body where their mouth is.

This is about principle. Something R. Money has only for when it comes to money. That principle being make a lot of it any how you can. Everything else, like dodging the draft while supporting the Vietnam intervention, is relative.