Be Ewing: so depends whether you are talking about/meaning one, all or both concepts

Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose the question might be, what purpose does a metaphor best serve, and where is it misleading?

Bruce Mowbray: The metaphor seems to be a "mix", Be.

Aphrodite Macbain: Mixed metaphors are particularly perplexing!

Be Ewing: multiple levels of perception/dimensions then

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Aphrodite Macbain: I'm curious what others might think

Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that the "power" and effectiveness of metaphors is in their ability to bring together different "levels" and different experiences - - - participation, connection, integration.

Aphrodite Macbain: Can you give an example of that Bruce?

Bruce Mowbray: Sure.

Bruce Mowbray: Here is a poem by Carl Sandburg:

Bruce Mowbray:

The voice of the last cricket

across the first frost

is one kind of Goodbye.

It is so thin a splinter

of singing.

("Splinter" by Carl Sandburg)

Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps someone who has not spoken yet would care to comment on the "different levels" and different "worlds" brought together here.

Aphrodite Macbain: how are different levels of experiences brought together?

Bruce Mowbray: Do crickets have voices? - - - Do you?

Aphrodite Macbain: Pila? Fc? Aggers?

Agatha Macbeth: 42

Bruce Mowbray: Do crickets say "Goodbye"? Do you?

Aphrodite Macbain: wrong number

Bruce Mowbray: 42!!!!

Agatha Macbeth: Doh

Bruce Mowbray: I love it!

Agatha Macbeth: Or 666...

Aphrodite Macbain: yikes

Bruce Mowbray: Cal, again: "They support the presence and participation of body and emotion in the process of thinking, expressing, communicating."

Bruce Mowbray: a cricket rubs it's legs together and Sandburg calls that a "voice" saying "goodbye."

FcSeeker: in case I understood right what crickets is, I'd say 'they talk a lot' :)<3<3<3

Aphrodite Macbain: Can we apply the same principles to allegories as we are doing to metaphors?

Bruce Mowbray: :))))))) @ Fc!!!!!

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth hugs FC

Bruce Mowbray: they sing until the first frost, Fc.

Aphrodite Macbain: then they are very thinly quiet

Bruce Mowbray: excellent question, Aph.

FcSeeker: (the sound when you step the ice to be broken; that's crickets ?)

Bruce Mowbray: Allegory: This^1 is to that^1 as this^2 is to that^2. ("abc" is to "def" as "pqr" is to "?") -- "stu"?

Actually, I thought a whole lot about Aph's question during this week. . . and I "concluded" that allegories are elaborate metaphors - - and also more precise. Therefore, computer programs can be written to do allegories --- but I'm not clear about whether they can do metaphors, yet. -- Bruce

Aphrodite Macbain: If no one has anything to contribute, I can quote a story that was given today. I'd be curious if everyone gets the same "moral" from it.

Be Ewing: (crickets are small animals usually live between spring and winter)

Once a Man lost his Loving wife. While his wife was dying, he gave her the promise that that he will not marry again.

The man remain truthful to his dead wife for a while but destiny had stored some thing else for him. He fell in love again.

He fell so deep in love that he forgot about his promise and he married again. Its natural for a man to forget promises, wedding dates, and birthday but a woman always cherishes these things.

On his wedding Night he saw his dead wife's Ghost, who complained about the broken promise. The man was surprised to see the ghost of his dead wife but now he could do nothing about it, so he kept quite. But his dead wife ghost could not accept this betrayal and She kept coming back everyday and telling word by word what transpires between the man and his new wife.

Tired by complaints and threats from the Ghost one day the man went to a Sage. The Sage said "the Ghost is very intelligent. Next time she comes, just pick one handful of grain from a sack and ask her how many grains are there in your hand."

When the Ghost came that night, the man did the same. He filled his hand with grains from a sack and asked the Ghost, "Tell me how many grains are there in my hand?" The Ghost immediately disappeared and never returned again.

Most of time what we believe and see in this world is a Projection of our mind. We can only see those things which we are already aware of. The mind projects things from the past. That Ghost was a creation of the mind and so are most of our problems. If we stop projecting things then 99% of our problems will disappear like the Ghost in this story.

Aphrodite Macbain: So ...

Aphrodite Macbain: is that the moral you got from the story?

Agatha Macbeth: I hate it when stuff vanishes before you can read it.

Aphrodite Macbain: Nobody in the group agreed.

Be Ewing: Be in the Now is what I got

Bruce Mowbray thinks, ghostly.

Aphrodite Macbain: scroll up Aggers, scroll up

Be Ewing: that often we just haunt ourselves

Agatha Macbeth: S'okay i read it from chat :p

Aphrodite Macbain: so, that's B's take.

Bruce Mowbray: modern psychology, of course, would say that the ghost itself was a projection. . . but that begs the question.

Mickorod Renard: I thought his dead wife was selfish

oO0Oo pokes Aggers while she scrolls

Aphrodite Macbain: I could not see the pint of the handful of grain

Mickorod Renard: :)

Agatha Macbeth: (owww)

Aphrodite Macbain: or point

Agatha Macbeth: Pint of grain please

Aphrodite Macbain: there's no point to this

Bruce Mowbray loves "We haunt ourselves."

Agatha Macbeth: We do

Aphrodite Macbain: me too

Eliza Madrigal: yes

oO0Oo nods

Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza, what do you think?

oO0Oo: notice the haunting... that moment when..

Aphrodite Macbain: when...?

Eliza Madrigal: made me think of grounding but then, I'm practical with ghosts

oO0Oo: awareness happens

FcSeeker: brb

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: what is more important, the awareness or the moment it happens?

oO0Oo: an instant when we could be any metaphor

Aphrodite Macbain: I could think of a number

Agatha Macbeth: and double it

oO0Oo: scary opportunity... but before that judgement just the openness

FcSeeker: b

Arisia Vita: wb

oO0Oo: wb

Bruce Mowbray: If we are completely "open," then everything can "participate in/as/with us.

Agatha Macbeth: wb, FC

Aphrodite Macbain: openness = awareness?

FcSeeker: ty

Bruce Mowbray: I think that "silence" is another of those metaphors. . .

Mickorod Renard: many things, like metaphors or even parables mean things to the person at that place in their life, and at another time and place something different

oO0Oo: worth looking into

Aphrodite Macbain: my point was that there are so many ways to read a metaphor or an allegory depending on what culture you are from that I wonder about its usefulness

Bruce Mowbray: I have never known "silence" -- I can always hear my heart beating and my nervous system in operation. . . but that's a literal interpretation of silence. . .

Eliza Madrigal: the silent cave of Eden's haiku... and so agree Mick

Aphrodite Macbain: agreed Mick

Be Ewing: Bruce -- what about when you space out? veg out? zone out? ... whatever you call it

FcSeeker: the story is difficult to this panda because all else is possible to happen in RL/SL, but that the ghost would go away for such question...

FcSeeker: so I might be too serious minded person to make any opinions of the story

Arisia Vita: welcome Cal

Be Ewing: a quiet brain

Bruce Mowbray ponders Be's question.

FcSeeker: Hello Cal

Aphrodite Macbain looks around for Cal.Welcome Cal

Be Ewing: that's often where issues get resolved for me -- when the jigsaw puzzle begins to complete itself

Mickorod Renard: Hi cal

Be Ewing: when solutions just appear

oO0Oo: layers of abstraction... in communication... metaphors of a kind of exponential possibility and wormhole like splash of meaning, but as with all communication... there is assumption and constant approximation... serendipity gives wonder moments

FcSeeker: but...rises something else to tell...

Bruce Mowbray: Eden wrote:

::: When it's beyond words

::: Silence is a healing cave

::: _/!\_

Agatha Macbeth: Hello Cal, don't be shy

Arisia Vita: leave that to me Cal :)

Agatha Macbeth: Ha

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Calvino

oO0Oo: Hi cal

Bruce Mowbray: We've been quoting you right and left, Cal (or I have, anyway). Welcome!

Calvino Rabeni: Hi everyone

Eliza Madrigal is being fed avocado slices by sushi-making daughter, so that I won't haunt her about her room

Be Ewing: Cal -- good to see/meet you:)

Mickorod Renard: hi cal,,:)

Calvino Rabeni: :) I have tech probs today

Agatha Macbeth: He's doing a Susan today :p

oO0Oo: ::round of applause for Cal's essay::

Bruce Mowbray: [`Â·.] APPLAUSE!! [.Â·Â´]

Calvino Rabeni: ty :)

Aphrodite Macbain APPLAUDS!!!

Bruce Mowbray: [`Â·.] APPLAUSE!! [.Â·Â´]

Arisia Vita: claps

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth claps

Mickorod Renard: yeyyy

Aphrodite Macbain: shy guy

Agatha Macbeth: Take a bow CR

Aphrodite Macbain APPLAUDS!!!

Bruce Mowbray: Brilliantly written, Cal. THANK you!

Be Ewing: APPLAUSE!!!!

Agatha Macbeth: and don't walk into the wall :D

Calvino Rabeni BLUSHES

Aphrodite Macbain: yayy

Agatha Macbeth: (must be laggy)

Bruce Mowbray: So, I'm still concerned with this "framing" thing -- and it makes me think of last week's question about whether metaphors can be "evil" - or used for evil purposes.

Bruce Mowbray: perhaps "unethical" is a better term.

Aphrodite Macbain: I don't understand why this was a question

Agatha Macbeth: Can't everything?

Be Ewing: Bruce -- I believe they can by judges for example sometimes

Aphrodite Macbain: exactly, aggers

Be Ewing: but I don't have any literal quotes

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth smiles

Be Ewing: I am not a student of words -- excuse me

Aphrodite Macbain: I think Boxy said that but amended his statement to "useful and not useful"

Be Ewing: I am neutral to gambling -- like most everything it can be good and it can be bad -- but you can't have one of those without the other

Aphrodite Macbain: god is unethical?

Calvino Rabeni: randomness might be associated with nihilism or a dissipatory life-style

Calvino Rabeni: not god, but people, who believe and pattern themselves after god

Be Ewing: and if one knows the statistical odds -- can be very profitable at times:)

Calvino Rabeni: god could be considered a metaphor for the better qualities of human nature

Calvino Rabeni: as god is anthropomorphic, usually

Be Ewing: perhaps that is another discussion?

FcSeeker takes a humble bow

Eliza Madrigal waves to FcS

FcSeeker: namaste

Mickorod Renard: bye fc

oO0Oo: Fc :)

Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Fc :))

Be Ewing: namaste

Bruce Mowbray: Oh dear! I just realized what time it is.

Arisia Vita: bye Fc

Bruce Mowbray: Shall we decide on a topic for next week?

Bruce Mowbray: Do you want to continue this one?

Be Ewing: well we touched on quite a few possibilities

Calvino Rabeni: metaphor as a "way of knowing" ?

Bruce Mowbray: Cal said this,"They are more than figures of speech or conceptual structures; more than descriptive of logic-like statements about the world. They are intrinsically gestural and participatory -- ways of being in and of the world."

-- and that is at least a full session right there!

Bruce Mowbray: I suggest we use "ways of being in the world" (through metaphor, perhaps) as a launching pad for next week's discussion.

Bruce Mowbray: open to any other suggestions, though.

Mickorod Renard: fine with me Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: ty.

Bruce Mowbray waits and listens.

Agatha Macbeth listens and waits

Calvino Rabeni: sounds good to me

Aphrodite Macbain: Big topic

Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe we can narrow it down a bit

Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for all your work and attentiveness Bruce, and nice writing (as often) Cal, and thanks Aph for the story...

Mickorod Renard: that's a good idea Aph

Agatha Macbeth nods

Be Ewing: Diverse discussion

Aphrodite Macbain: ways of being in the world: as a person, as a society? which world?

Be Ewing: Cal -- thanks for the starting point!

Bruce Mowbray: enormous topic -- and an important one, too.

Arisia Vita: a friend asks my help, so I will go, for that is my pleasure... see you all soon I hope

Arisia Vita: be well and happy

Mickorod Renard: bye Ari

Agatha Macbeth: Take care ari :)

Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Ari!

Arisia Vita: bye for now

Be Ewing: Arisia and All -- take care and miles of smiles :)

oO0Oo: bye Ari

Aphrodite Macbain: By Ari - you helpful person!

Eliza Madrigal waves to Ari

Bruce Mowbray: I was wondering -- for the sake of the WoK group itself . . . . does anyone wish to say anything?

Aphrodite Macbain: Can we narrow the subject down before we leave and decide who's going to raise it?

Bruce Mowbray: Surfe, Aph, we can try.

Bruce Mowbray: sure*

Aphrodite Macbain: Surfe?

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth pictures Aph on a surf board

Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain pulls out her surf board

Agatha Macbeth: snap

Aphrodite Macbain: crackle

Be Ewing: pop

Agatha Macbeth: It's deja vu

Bruce Mowbray: "ways of being in the world" (through metaphor, perhaps) as a launching pad for next week's discussion

Aphrodite Macbain: getting hungry

oO0Oo: metaphor as way of knowing like a surfer knows the world by the wave

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth waves to 0

Aphrodite Macbain: mind hurts

Be Ewing: :)

Calvino Rabeni: nice metaphor, Sam

Bruce Mowbray: Metaphor as a way of knowing. . .

Be Ewing: All take care :)

oO0Oo: hey Ags! :)

Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Be!

Calvino Rabeni: bring a poem ?

Mickorod Renard: are you suggesting that we just recite metaphors Bruce?

Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now Be

Aphrodite Macbain: by weight, touch and sound

Mickorod Renard: bye Ags

Calvino Rabeni: deconstruct something :)

Mickorod Renard: bye be

Agatha Macbeth: Haven't gone yet...

Bruce Mowbray: great idea, Cal -- Everyone bring a poem to illustrate the point -- or not.

Mickorod Renard: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: yes. That sounds useful. We're all good at deconstructing

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth swats Mick

Bruce Mowbray: A poem that illustrates how metaphor offers a way of knowing....

Bruce Mowbray: Aph, I feel that EVERY "spiritual" term, without exception, is a metaphor.

Mickorod Renard: byeeeeee

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Mick thanks for your helpful contributions

Calvino Rabeni: Row row row your boat

Bruce Mowbray: BYEEEEE!

Eliza Madrigal: Eliza Madrigal waves warmly to Mick

Aphrodite Macbain: Hmmm.

Bruce Mowbray: OK, then. I'm a bit vague about how this chat gets posted. . . Shall I do that?

Calvino Rabeni: Please do, Bruce

Calvino Rabeni: I don't have it

Bruce Mowbray: This is a Kira venue, so I'm not clear on the frames.

Aphrodite Macbain: I'm not sure if it is automatically recorded. Is it Eliza? Cal?

Bruce Mowbray: I have it on my hard drive.

Calvino Rabeni: frames/

Aphrodite Macbain: Frames of seeing

Bruce Mowbray: frames, indeed!

Calvino Rabeni: no, you take it from your computer chat log

Eliza Madrigal: it isn't automatically recorded, no

Calvino Rabeni: and make a new page on the wiki

Agatha Macbeth: We need an autologger here...

Calvino Rabeni: and paste it in

Eliza Madrigal: and it seems fine to post to the discussions, nods

Bruce Mowbray: yeah, I've got it on computer. so I will post it.

Calvino Rabeni: actually Bruce, I like to take off the timestamps too

Calvino Rabeni: if they are there

Bruce Mowbray: Did anyone else wish to say anything about WoK?

Eliza Madrigal: should there be a desire to really 'restart' the workshop, then it is a good idea to talk to Maxine

Calvino Rabeni: if you want me to do it, send me the file

Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bruce. Yes, they are a nuisance

Eliza Madrigal: and attend a Kira team meeting

Bruce Mowbray: I will delete the timestamps, np.

Calvino Rabeni: ty much Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: I know nothing of Kira team meetings, sry.

Agatha Macbeth: Better to turn em off beforehand

oO0Oo: shout out to Stim and gaya and anyone else who haunts the ways of knowing !

Eliza Madrigal: and at the meeting one would propose and take initiative...

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Agatha Macbeth: How is Gaya?

Calvino Rabeni: Exempt from public haunt

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Bruce Mowbray: WHERE is Gaya?

Eliza Madrigal: she is taking classes, as I understand

Bruce Mowbray loves "exempt from public haunt" -- ME TOO!

Agatha Macbeth: Bless her

Aphrodite Macbain: Congratulations Bruce. I feel, like last time, that we haven't adequately dealt with the topic. Cal has put a lot of thought into his essay and I don't think everyone totally understood what was happening. I wonder if we could revisit the subject

Aphrodite Macbain: next week

Bruce Mowbray: definitely, Aph -- and I agree with you entirely.

Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps focusing on something

Eliza Madrigal: I'll be reading on the wiki mostly, but thanks and I'm glad i made it here today

Aphrodite Macbain: What do you think, everyone?

Bruce Mowbray: BRING that with you, please.

Aphrodite Macbain: (who's left)

Bruce Mowbray: THANKS for joining in, Eliza!

Aphrodite Macbain: It needs some preparatory work Bruce. and an agreement by everyone

Agatha Macbeth: Thx Liz, take care

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Eliza

Eliza Madrigal: wish you the best, and it would be a good idea to talk to Maxine re the official things :)

Agatha Macbeth: (you really do need wings btw)

Bruce Mowbray remembers the Little Red Hen....

Eliza Madrigal: she is ever with me :)

Bruce Mowbray: "Very well, then, I shall do it myself." And she did!

Agatha Macbeth: I remember the little red rooster

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Aphrodite Macbain: cluck cluck

oO0Oo: leading by example as metaphor for fruition

Bruce Mowbray: Pila! How ARE you!!!????

Bruce Mowbray: (silent one).

Aphrodite Macbain: and pickiness

Agatha Macbeth: Silence is golden

Eliza Madrigal: bye everyone :) waves

Pila Mulligan: hi Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Liz!

oO0Oo: wings to all... be well

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth waves

Agatha Macbeth: I'll be away the noo

Bruce Mowbray: I was hoping you could enlighten us about the metaphorical I Ching -- or not so metaphorical.

Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain flaps hers

Agatha Macbeth: tc

oO0Oo: :)

Pila Mulligan: :)

Bruce Mowbray: tc, aggers!

Bruce Mowbray hopes that we've breathed a bit of life back into WoK today.