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BEIJING — China’s government is ratcheting up a crackdown on Christian congregations in Beijing and several provinces, destroying crosses, burning bibles, shutting churches and ordering followers to sign papers renouncing their faith, according to pastors and a group that monitors religion in China.

The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives.

Yeah, it is. But the idea that you think that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China is even more appalling.

Interesting. Thinking "that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China" is MORE appalling than

Quote:

Fu also provided video footage of what appeared to be piles of burning bibles and forms stating that the signatories had renounced their Christian faith. He said that marked the first time since Mao’s radical 1966-1976 Cultural Revolution that Christians had been compelled to make such declarations, under pain of expulsion from school and the loss of welfare benefits.

and

Quote:

In the most extreme example, an estimated 1 million Uighurs and other members of Muslim minority groups in the country’s northwest have been arbitrarily detained in indoctrination camps where they are forced to denounce Islam and profess loyalty to the Communist Party.

Well, I would say that perhaps the Atheists are the real victims here.... but we all know that this activity is part and parcel of the Atheist Totalitarian Government of Chine. Further, we know that this is a characteristic of Atheist totalitarian governments like China and USSR, in fact one would say it is one of their defining features.

Well, I would say that perhaps the Atheists are the real victims here.... but we all know that this activity is part and parcel of the Atheist Totalitarian Government of Chine. Further, we know that this is a characteristic of Atheist totalitarian governments like China and USSR, in fact one would say it is one of their defining features.

Careful, your bias is showing. We've gone over this before. First, totalitarian governments crack down on everything, not just religion, and second, they do it for political reasons and not in the name of atheism.

Why am I even bothering to engage here? I know exactly how it's going to turn out.

Careful, your bias is showing. We've gone over this before. First, totalitarian governments crack down on everything, not just religion, and second, they do it for political reasons and not in the name of atheism.

Why am I even bothering to engage here? I know exactly how it's going to turn out.

My bias? I am simply quoting the article and your post where you said that Thinking "that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China" is MORE appalling than destroying the Churches and interning a million people.

I'm not surprised that Trump's friend President Xi Jinping is doing all this. Maybe he's doing this because Christians rape children.

__________________All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

"The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives."

But I have "blinkered vision."

Interesting

You do. You can't tell the difference between a totalitarian government with an official position of atheism cracking down on dissention for political reasons and them doing it because atheism demands it.

__________________...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015

Look, TBD, we get it. We understand that you view the existence of atheism as a personal attack on you and your worldview, and on the God you say you worship and revere. It's not. The cited incidents are an attack on innocent people by a totalitarian government, not an attack on Christians by atheists.

Are you worried that we scary atheists are going to completely wipe out your church and kill your god? Not going to happen. You can't claim to be a persecuted minority when you're in a majority across the world. We should be more worried about you. After all, there are many, many more documented examples of religious people attacking and forcefully converting people to their religion than there are of atheists forcibly deconverting the religious.

Look, TBD, we get it. We understand that you view the existence of atheism as a personal attack on you and your worldview, and on the God you say you worship and revere. It's not. The cited incidents are an attack on innocent people by a totalitarian government, not an attack on Christians by atheists.

Are you worried that we scary atheists are going to completely wipe out your church and kill your god? Not going to happen. You can't claim to be a persecuted minority when you're in a majority across the world. We should be more worried about you. After all, there are many, many more documented examples of religious people attacking and forcefully converting people to their religion than there are of atheists forcibly deconverting the religious.

We should be more scared of you than you are of us.

Oh it’s an attack by atheists on not just Christians, but Muslims too. And while I appreciate a good whataboutism, since the beginning of the 20th century the overwhelming number of pogroms have been by atheist states like China and the USSR. Indeed some would say that Atheists have industrialized it.

Yes, I am well aware of what it means. It would appear that a driving force of the officially atheist state is to force people to become atheists.

No, that's precisely NOT what they said. They were very clear in their goal: Sinicization - forcing religions to be CHINESE, i.e. follow the Communist Party rules. Nowhere did they state that it was the Atheist Party of China. It's the Communist Party of China.

Quote:

As noted above, it is a defining characteristic of such atheists states. Atheist state and pogroms go hand in hand, take a look at the USSR and gozathiesm.

Oh you like to rewrite history? Like to be deliberately selective? The Orthodox Church thrived in the USSR because it played along with the ruling hierarchy, whether that was very Christian Tsars or the mildly atheist Kommissars. In turn, the ruling parties used the church to subdue the masses. Atheism?? Like Donny's tax-breaks and jobs-for-Americans, great propaganda, not reality.

Also, for the majority of the existence of the USSR it was ruled not by atheists but by the god-in-human-form-worshippers of Stalin. Heaven help you if Stalin turned his face from you. Not only did you disappear, you got airbrushed out of photos like Donny's inauguration crowd gaps. It was a personality cult...just like you see today with Trumpites. They don't worship the god you believe in; they worship Trump, and he worships himself.

__________________...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015

No, that's precisely NOT what they said. They were very clear in their goal: Sinicization - forcing religions to be CHINESE, i.e. follow the Communist Party rules. Nowhere did they state that it was the Atheist Party of China. It's the Communist Party of China.

Oh you like to rewrite history? Like to be deliberately selective? The Orthodox Church thrived in the USSR because it played along with the ruling hierarchy, whether that was very Christian Tsars or the mildly atheist Kommissars. In turn, the ruling parties used the church to subdue the masses. Atheism?? Like Donny's tax-breaks and jobs-for-Americans, great propaganda, not reality.

Also, for the majority of the existence of the USSR it was ruled not by atheists but by the god-in-human-form-worshippers of Stalin. Heaven help you if Stalin turned his face from you. Not only did you disappear, you got airbrushed out of photos like Donny's inauguration crowd gaps. It was a personality cult...just like you see today with Trumpites. They don't worship the god you believe in; they worship Trump, and he worships himself.

Wait, wait, wait... you think that Sinicization means follow the communist party lead? That is absurd.

I'd even be advocating christian-conversion camps and therapy. Nobody's ever tried anything like that, so who know - it might even work. If people are stupid enough to believe in invisible fairies, they'll believe anything.

Given christians' 2000-year history of causing violence against non-christians, the Chinese are behaving quite sensibly. Cut the problem off at the root.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

Appalling.

Damn right it is. What a waste - they could be selling them.

__________________The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

The Nazi attack on the Soviet Union in 1941 induced Stalin to enlist the Russian Orthodox Church as an ally to arouse Russian patriotism against foreign aggression. Russian Orthodox religious life experienced a revival: thousands of churches were reopened; there were 22,000 by the time Nikita Khrushchev came to power. The regime permitted religious publications, and church membership grew.

__________________...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015

__________________...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015

I'd even be advocating christian-conversion camps and therapy. Nobody's ever tried anything like that, so who know - it might even work. If people are stupid enough to believe in invisible fairies, they'll believe anything.

Given christians' 2000-year history of causing violence against non-christians, the Chinese are behaving quite sensibly. Cut the problem off at the root.

Damn right it is. What a waste - they could be selling them.

Bingo, that is the type of defense of this atheist policy that I expected from the atheists!

Bingo, that is the type of defense of this atheist policy that I expected from the atheists!

I can see now you are just taking the piss and not having a real discussion. Have fun with that.

__________________...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015

Wait, wait, wait... you think that Sinicization means follow the communist party lead? That is absurd.

Quote:

Sinicization, sinicisation, sinofication, or sinification is a process whereby non-Chinese societies come under the influence of Chinese culture, particularly Han Chinese culture and societal norms. Areas of influence include diet, writing, industry, education, language, law, lifestyle, politics, philosophy, religion, science and technology, culture, and value systems. More broadly, "Sinicization" may refer to policies of acculturation, assimilation, or cultural imperialism imposed by China onto neighboring East Asian countries. Evidence of this can be seen in the value systems, cuisine, architectural style, and lexicons. This is reflected in the histories of Japan, Korea and Vietnam for example, in the adoption of the Chinese writing system as the script of the Han Chinese has long been a unifying feature in the Sinosphere as the vehicle for exporting Chinese culture to these Asian countries.

As I said above, you are just taking the piss now. Like all conspiracy nutcases, you have your cause set in concrete. Now you are desperately searching for evidence. Anything will do. And Muslims were dancing after 9/11 too.

__________________...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015

I can see now you are just taking the piss and not having a real discussion. Have fun with that.

Not sure what gave you that idea, in fact he and I seem to be the only ones talking about the article and the crack down. I think it is appalling, he thinks that it is fanstatic, in fact it does not go far enough in his view.

As I said above, you are just taking the piss now. Like all conspiracy nutcases, you have your cause set in concrete. Now you are desperately searching for evidence. Anything will do. And Muslims were dancing after 9/11 too.

You think that the article about the USSR’s crackdown on religion after Stalin as reflected in the article I linked and which completely rebutted your false claims is a conspiracy theory?

Cool! I notice that other fella said it didn’t appear in the article, but while I enjoy reading articles, I direct your attention to the linked article in the op. Let’s take a gander.

“The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives.”

There is that officially atheist word we were searching for!

Right. The campaign to sinicize religion. To make religion conform to Chinese norms. Which, in an authoritarian state means conforming to the wishes of the government. They're not cracking down because the churches are religious, they're cracking down because the churches are dissidents. And they're doing that not because they are atheist, they are doing that because that's what totalitarian governments do - they eliminate dissent.

TBD is doing a bit of trolling here, but there is a point to be made. In fact, there are a couple of points. I can think of two, one of which I'm sure he will agree with, and the other, possibly, but perhaps with not so much enthusiasm.

First, there are a lot of people on this board who act like the United States is a Christian theocracy where non-Christians, especially atheists, are a persecuted minority. That's bunk. The government in China is showing what real persecution looks like, and it doesn't look like anything that's happening here in the US. (That's the one I'm sure TBD agrees with, although I will let him correct me if I'm wrong.)

The second is that we have seen throughout history that any time the government gets to dictate an official policy about religious practice, things really suck for anyone who doesn't go along with the official policy. This is true whether, as in most of history, the official policy specifies a particular style of worshipping a specific god or, as in the modern era, where the official policy is to recognize no god at all and forbid or restrict worship of one, or more, or all, sorts of gods. It took until the 20th century to have officially atheist, as opposed to merely secular, governments, and everyplace where they have existed, things have sucked. The lesson ought to be to demand religious freedom everywhere, and not encroach on that freedom if it can at all be avoided. Unfortunately, some people seem to think that since atheism isn't a religion, somehow policies that promote atheism aren't restricting religious freedom.

All this is true, but I really do think that TBD believes that religion is under attack by organised atheism, and that the Stalinist government of the USSR and today's Chinese government are examples of this. I think he'd be pretty hard-pressed to provide very many additional examples - the government of Pol Pot is the only one that comes immediately to my mind - but that has never stopped him before.

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