In a sense we had this same problem when DoN first came out. GM armor then (including the GM symbol and an aug in the other 2 slots) far surpassed what was the norm for group armor in OOW (tier 1), and the Crystal bought gear from DoN vendors. So in a sense, crafted became the best groupable gear around. However, it did not compete with raid gear until you obtained a raid aug (Bazu, Last Blood, etc). This is no different than SoF. Lets compare a high end crafted + crafted symbol + 2 groupable augs (no last blood, bazu, etc) with the tier 2 drops coming from bloodmoon.

So, currently the high end groupable crafted armor is probably about tier 3 quality groupable gear in SoF (tier 3 class specific armor hasnt really been found as far as I know). Tier 4 SoF groupable gear is currently higher than even high end crafted + high end groupable augments. The high end crafted does not start competing with SoF raid gear until you add raid augments (Bazu, Last Blood) into them. There is no foci or mod 2s until you get the raid augs. Thus, its only raid gear competing with raid gear, which is what makes sense.

Actually the Level 70 DoN tradeskilled armor was a decent replacement for lower end raid items at the time. TF has been a lower end-mid tiered raiding guild for most of my time here.

When DoN stuff became Available TF was in the Plane of Time, as were other lower/mid raid guilds. My Plane of Time BP (if I had won one) was 87AC 210 hp. The DoN BP (which I am wearing now) was 99AC 185hp. The time BP had a nice focus and some shielding, so overall the Time BP was better, but not by a ton. The best type 12 aug available to me was a 45 hp/mana/end aug. DoD wasn't even released yet.

Fast forward to now. The L80 SoF tradeskill BP is 130AC 410hp with no type 7 or 12 aug, compared to the Demi BP 143AC 375hp which is where most low/mid tiered raid guilds are now. That is fairly close and not out of whack. But since you can add a Last Blood or Bazu aug to the SoF crafted BP it throws everything way out of whack. Why would I bother with a Demi BP now? A SoF crafted + LB would be 175AC 620hp w/o a type 7 aug.

What they should have done is make a new aug instead of using a type 12 aug for the SoF crafted.

For the bazu aug person here is the best you can do for a plate bp with Sublime augs and Elegant armor. AC 160 HP 590. Last blood that would be 175 AC 610 HP.

Not counting whatever you stick in slot 7. For Tanks maybe the 30ac 60 hp aug, for others maybe the 100/100 aug. Tier 4 group is about that stat. Casuals can't get the bazu/last blood though and will be closer to 130 AC and 410 HP which is about Tier 2 armor.

They have mudflated all of the items (group and raid) and made the group game harder. Cept weapons have anguish ratios.

Tradeskillers, smiths/tailors/jewelers are making a killing this expansion as well as the bazaar farmers/traders dealing in the Tier 1 attuneable gear.

and it is just sick! like 600 HP an everything else similar to above - still in Elaborate - but had a Last Blood in it already. It should be obvious why I picked my Wrist as the first upgrade to Sublime. most likely piece of gear to keep the longest.

Hmm funny thing about the above - I have already replaced the Slot 7 with something else right now...

Bilnick, did I see you say you thought tradeskills were given to much power?

Does anybody even understand how hard it is to max every tradeskill?? And in reality, there was pretty much no reward for doing it?

Does anybody remember how hard it was before the memorized recipes and having to put each item in the container for every combine?

Granted, now maxing stuff is 1000 times easier with this addition to the interface, but it is still no easy task to max your skills to make them useful. And if you can max them, then you should be able to do something powerful with them.

Now, things may be going overboard with the ability to make 700 gear with augs, I guess. But there has never been anything useful for a person to make with max tradeskills except for some subpar gear and subpar augs. Except for my Haversacks, of course. Now, a tradeskiller actually has value and is getting something for their years of ignorant combines.

At least that is how I see it. I have never profited on anything but my bags. I do combines for gear and augs all the time for free just because I can help somebody out. And I work on improving the things I can help with for no compensation and usually getting little help, if any, doing it. But, thats just me. I made my millions on bags, but if I was poor, maybe I would charge something for my services.

For a guild that raids as casually as ours this is about the best thing that could happen to us.

It allows all of us to get some upgrades without waiting for months to accrue enough dkp to outbid someone else who needs that raid drop just as bad as we do. These changes will allow TF to gear up and progress at a much faster rate and it will also require less of us to be completely dependent on raids to upgrade *any* of our slots. Now people have at least 8 slots they could upgrade from bazaar gear, farming, and maybe even a pickup group or two on Shyra to get a Bazu aug.

There are always two ways to look at things. Here are three easy "pros" in my book.

1. In this case this makes all the Demi visible armor slots drop in price (with less people bidding you will spend less dkp buying them).

2. You feel less dependent on everyone else for your upgrades. Here you can farm and do something on your own time which can be much more rewarding to some when they have put in the time and effort to construct upgrades for themselves.

3. It should allow TF to make leaps and bounds progression wise. With people gearing up faster (in AND outside of raids, instead of just in raids) we should be able to tackle more difficult encounters and chew through content to catch up to TBS or at least TSS.

Consider rings and earrings. Some of the most competitive DKP bidding items.
High prices and takes time to get it.
Dwerium, for me anyhow is better than what I had and fills in until I can replace it with something better.

The high lev cultural is not going to flood in anytime soon. the key items may drop off trash, but they are quite rare.

This expansion is certainly a thumb up the ass of those that think raiding is all there is to EQ.

It gave the game back to groups and soloists. For that I applaud them.

Goofydoofy wrote:Bilnick, did I see you say you thought tradeskills were given to much power?Does anybody even understand how hard it is to max every tradeskill?? And in reality, there was pretty much no reward for doing it?

Does anybody remember how hard it was before the memorized recipes and having to put each item in the container for every combine?

Tradeskilling is tough, but does not require anywhere near the effort raiding does in my opinion. I haven't spent alot of time tradeskilling (almost none in fact) but the efforts of one person cannot compare to the efforts of 54.

If the armor created was no drop that would be fine. You put in the effort to get 300, make a set of armor for yourself. But for me who has put about 10 hours in 7 years into tradeskills, all I need is a load of plat (and the price will drop over time) to get the exact same stuff. I could farm the drops or pay Isenhart to make a BP + Symbol for me, and for essentially 0 effort on my part have a 700hp, 175 AC BP that I will not replace for at least a year.

IF the new tradeskill BP was around 150ish AC and 450ish hp fully auged that would be fine. But when endgame raiders are digging out thier old Lastblood augs and putting them into a new tradeskilled item and getting Solteris level armor..... that is overpowered. Less than 10 guilds in the entire game can beat Solteris, but if I have enough plat I can have armor comparable to any of them. Stupid........