As for the rest of your post, I was only showing the problems he's caused every off-season because I was told he had none. If you want to keep making excuses for Crabtree's lack of effort, go ahead, he's not on my team so I couldn't care less. The fact is, unless he starts getting his act together he won't show his real talent and will be outperformed by DHB. Just defending DHB in this thread because picking him over Crabtree was never the big deal everyone tried to make it seem.

LIKE I SAID, they were running routes, working out. You cant go practice the playbook without 11 offensive players on the field. If Kevin Jurovich and Morgan were the only WRs in attendance that should tell you something. The key personel on offense were all missing. Where was VD? Where was Gore? Ginn? Walker? You act as if Crabs was the only guy not there. And when Smith did put together Camp Alex in a couple of weeks, with a majority of the offensive guys, Crabs was right there so again, I fail to see your point. No one is making excuses because there is none to be made. When its mandatory for Crabs to be somewhere and he's not, then maybe I can see your point. He has showed up to every involuntary workout this off-season, as well as previous off-seasons when he's been healthy. Again, KNOW YOU FACTS before you start spewing your opinion as gospel. And if you think the type of offense and the QB throwing you the ball doesn't impact production then you obviously dont kno as much as you think you do.

LIKE I SAID, they were running routes, working out. You cant go practice the playbook without 11 offensive players on the field.

Yes, that never works out. QBs and WRs never workout together to get a better rapport with each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAfy-ya

If Kevin Jurovich and Morgan were the only WRs in attendance that should tell you something. The key personel on offense were all missing. Where was VD? Where was Gore? Ginn? Walker? You act as if Crabs was the only guy not there.

I didn't act as if Crabtree was the only guy not there. Please find the exact quote where I said that instead of putting words in my mouth. I couldn't care less if Gore and VD weren't there, I would trust veterans like those two to be able to pick up the playbook quicker. I couldn't care less if Ginn and Walker weren't there, one was already a bust and the other was a 6th round pick. If you're the 10th pick in the overall draft, held out for a huge contract, and had only two mediocre seasons after, you shouldn't be so goddamn lazy and do everything you can to be successful. Otherwise, you deserve any criticism that comes your way, especially if you end up being mediocre again like his third season. Also, Davis and Gore weren't the ones criticizing Smith. Davis actually said Smith matured, instead the guy who was as much of a bust decided to call out his QB and then not do **** about it. Crabtree is all talk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAfy-ya

And when Smith did put together Camp Alex in a couple of weeks, with a majority of the offensive guys, Crabs was right there so again, I fail to see your point.

He was right there...yeah I was right there practicing with all of them just as much as he was in those workouts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAfy-ya

No one is making excuses because there is none to be made. When its mandatory for Crabs to be somewhere and he's not, then maybe I can see your point. He has showed up to every involuntary workout this off-season, as well as previous off-seasons when he's been healthy.

Just showing up doesn't do ****...oh wait he was "injured" every time. Sorry...gotta get my facts straight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAfy-ya

Again, KNOW YOU FACTS before you start spewing your opinion as gospel. And if you think the type of offense and the QB throwing you the ball doesn't impact production then you obviously dont kno as much as you think you do.

Alex Smith improved...Crabtree didn't, that just tells me that the problem with Crabtree isn't Smith. And it's not like Crabtree is some burner that Alex's weak arm can't get the ball to. It's his ****** route running, his butterfingers, and lack of focus that plagued him last season. Crabtree's skill set is actually made for Harbaugh's WCO.

When did I say the type of offense and QB doesn't matter? Pretty sure that all my posts have talked about how working with your QB more will make you better and Crabtree likes to avoid working, and that is why he hasn't broken out. Seriously, are you even reading my posts or just making **** up?

This isn't a bash of DHB. I actually really liked him coming out. It's just the hypocrisy of complimenting one while criticizing the other.

Hey now! No, no, no, no! You said seasonS, as in more than one! Vernon Davis has outproduced Crabs the past two seasons, and the gap furthers itself when you go to three seasons since Davis's monster year was three seasons ago.

But yeah, Crabs had his best season last year and had more yards than Davis, but even so, you're comparing a team's 1st option WR to their starting TE, so it's kind of a silly comparison. You could even say Davis had the more impressive year considering the positions they play.

I think people knock Crabs for his production and praise Heyward-Bey for similar production is purely because it's hard to like Michael Crabtree. The dude dominated college, and was practically the consensus #1 WR prospect in the draft that year. DHB's rating was all over the place depending on who you asked, ranging from #1 to #6. Then the Raiders took DHB over Crabs, and people went nuts with the Al Davis/40 time jokes. Crabs fell right to the 49ers, and everyone thought it was a great pick. So we already kind of have an underdog vs favorite relationship going on.

Then Crabtree held out for forever, which probably flushed any positive perception he had down the drain. People want him to fail because of that. Suddenly, he went from a popular prospect to an entitled jerkface, and meanwhile, DHB was being quiet in Oakland.

Now that they're finally putting forth results, it's no wonder people are celebrating DHB and ignoring Crabs. Crabs was supposed to be doing this. Actually, he was supposed to be doing more. People aren't going to praise him for not living up to expectations. DHB, on the other hand, had low expectations because of his "boom or bust" perception and him being drafted by the Raiders, so for him to nearly be a 1,000-yard receiver, it hits us as being more impressive than Crabtree doing the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phlysac

Or perhaps Moss (1 year deal,) Manningham (2 year deal,) and Jenkins (drafted) were added because Kyle Williams, Brett Swain, and Joe Hastings were the #3,4,5 WRs behind Crabtree and Ginn.

They did all that to upgrade the bench? You have to think they were brought in to upgrade the starting rotation. But for all I know, the 49ers could be wanting to implement a philosophy change and air it out more and use more 4 WR sets instead of 2 WR-2 TE sets. That's what I think the Titans are doing by drafting Kendall Wright in the 1st despite having a go-to #1 in Britt, 1,000-yd #2 WR in Washington, and a young #3 WR with potential in Damian Williams. I figured we were set, but Chris Palmer runs a lot of 3 WR-1 TE sets (Jared Cook is typically the TE, so it's basically 4 WR's since he's a jumbo WR). They're going from a run-first to a pass-first team, so they added a WR that was perfectly suited for their offense and could make the same impact that a starter would due to the scheme.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monomach

What's the "what" about?

Pretty much everyone here liked him as a prospect. Pretty much everyone here knew he was raw. Pretty much everyone here knew it would take a few years of development. Pretty much everyone figured he'd turn out to be a 1000-yard field-stretcher but not a super dominant CJ/Fitz/Andre type of receiver.

DHB is on track to do exactly what everyone thought he would do in the time frame everyone thought he'd do it in.

DHB was a popular pick for the "Which player will/is most likely to bust?" threads. And that was before he went to the Raiders... I think a lot of people were projecting him to be just a #2 caliber, deep threat WR for a team, which would label him a bust if he were selected in the 1st RD.

Hey now! No, no, no, no! You said seasonS, as in more than one! Vernon Davis has outproduced Crabs the past two seasons, and the gap furthers itself when you go to three seasons since Davis's monster year was three seasons ago.

But yeah, Crabs had his best season last year and had more yards than Davis, but even so, you're comparing a team's 1st option WR to their starting TE, so it's kind of a silly comparison. You could even say Davis had the more impressive year considering the positions they play.

I think people knock Crabs for his production and praise Heyward-Bey for similar production is purely because it's hard to like Michael Crabtree. The dude dominated college, and was practically the consensus #1 WR prospect in the draft that year. DHB's rating was all over the place depending on who you asked, ranging from #1 to #6. Then the Raiders took DHB over Crabs, and people went nuts with the Al Davis/40 time jokes. Crabs fell right to the 49ers, and everyone thought it was a great pick. So we already kind of have an underdog vs favorite relationship going on.

Then Crabtree held out for forever, which probably flushed any positive perception he had down the drain. People want him to fail because of that. Suddenly, he went from a popular prospect to an entitled jerkface, and meanwhile, DHB was being quiet in Oakland.

Now that they're finally putting forth results, it's no wonder people are celebrating DHB and ignoring Crabs. Crabs was supposed to be doing this. Actually, he was supposed to be doing more. People aren't going to praise him for not living up to expectations. DHB, on the other hand, had low expectations because of his "boom or bust" perception and him being drafted by the Raiders, so for him to nearly be a 1,000-yard receiver, it hits us as being more impressive than Crabtree doing the same.

They did all that to upgrade the bench? You have to think they were brought in to upgrade the starting rotation. But for all I know, the 49ers could be wanting to implement a philosophy change and air it out more and use more 4 WR sets instead of 2 WR-2 TE sets. That's what I think the Titans are doing by drafting Kendall Wright in the 1st despite having a go-to #1 in Britt, 1,000-yd #2 WR in Washington, and a young #3 WR with potential in Damian Williams. I figured we were set, but Chris Palmer runs a lot of 3 WR-1 TE sets (Jared Cook is typically the TE, so it's basically 4 WR's since he's a jumbo WR). They're going from a run-first to a pass-first team, so they added a WR that was perfectly suited for their offense and could make the same impact that a starter would due to the scheme.

DHB was a popular pick for the "Which player will/is most likely to bust?" threads. And that was before he went to the Raiders... I think a lot of people were projecting him to be just a #2 caliber, deep threat WR for a team, which would label him a bust if he were selected in the 1st RD.

Great post. I won't argue any of it outside of the season vs seasonS semantics that was my responsibility. The only thing I think needs a different perspective is that I don't care that Davis is a TE. He is the #1 target in the offense, period. The position has no bearing, regardless of how atypical that is.

But props for a fair and non-biased approach of both good and bad about a player argument.

That last part is inaccurate. He's not a very good downfield receiver. He is, however, developing into a very good possession receiver. Most of his catches were on outs and come backs. It's really quite puzzling, but also great to see.

This is true. I thought we just got a guy who can run in a straight line, really fast. Last season that wasn't the case at all, he was running good routes, breaking tackles and actually catching the ball. Its very surprising but I'll take it.

Yes, that never works out. QBs and WRs never workout together to get a better rapport with each other.

I didn't act as if Crabtree was the only guy not there. Please find the exact quote where I said that instead of putting words in my mouth. I couldn't care less if Gore and VD weren't there, I would trust veterans like those two to be able to pick up the playbook quicker. I couldn't care less if Ginn and Walker weren't there, one was already a bust and the other was a 6th round pick. If you're the 10th pick in the overall draft, held out for a huge contract, and had only two mediocre seasons after, you shouldn't be so goddamn lazy and do everything you can to be successful. Otherwise, you deserve any criticism that comes your way, especially if you end up being mediocre again like his third season. Also, Davis and Gore weren't the ones criticizing Smith. Davis actually said Smith matured, instead the guy who was as much of a bust decided to call out his QB and then not do **** about it. Crabtree is all talk.

He was right there...yeah I was right there practicing with all of them just as much as he was in those workouts.

Just showing up doesn't do ****...oh wait he was "injured" every time. Sorry...gotta get my facts straight.

Alex Smith improved...Crabtree didn't, that just tells me that the problem with Crabtree isn't Smith. And it's not like Crabtree is some burner that Alex's weak arm can't get the ball to. It's his ****** route running, his butterfingers, and lack of focus that plagued him last season. Crabtree's skill set is actually made for Harbaugh's WCO.

When did I say the type of offense and QB doesn't matter? Pretty sure that all my posts have talked about how working with your QB more will make you better and Crabtree likes to avoid working, and that is why he hasn't broken out. Seriously, are you even reading my posts or just making **** up?

You have a very biased opinion of Crabs and thats fine, your entitled to it. Your just sadly misguided on alot of your perceptions. I'll take the word over his head coach and his teammates over some Raiders fan on a draft forum. Anyone bitching about his route-running obviously hasnt watched enough Crabtree to form a opinion. You say he hasn't improve because your looking at numbers but your not seeing the player and the scheme in which he plays. Alex improved yes, but the philosphy is still pound the ball, ball-control. So regardless of Alex's improvements, Crabs wont get the opportunties others WRs will in more balanced offenses. But of course that's another "excuse" in your eyes. You dont think the fact Crabs was stuck primarily on the outside with guys like Brett Swain and Ginn on the other side of the field didnt affect how teams defended him and our offense as a whole? I could sit here and go on and on about how Alex's refusal to throw guys open and just lack of overall development up until this point has hampered ALL the WRs he's played with, not just Crabtree but again another excuse......I get it. There have never been any issues regarding Crabs football IQ or problems picking up any offense so to use that as a excuse why he should be in Cali, running routes and working out with a QB who wasn' t even under contract at the time and not guanranteed to return to Niners, playbook in hand or not, just reeks of someone being overly critical when there was a work stoppage going on. The fact Crabs broke his foot the first day, yet stay for the duration of Camp Alex I think speaks to his commitment at the time. I mean, what else do you expect a guy with a broken bone in his foot to do? You feel Crabtree doesn't work hard enough. I'm saying you still havent giving me proof of this beyond speculation when the coaches and teammates he works with everyday have all said the total opposite.

You have a very biased opinion of Crabs and thats fine, your entitled to it. Your just sadly misguided on alot of your perceptions. I'll take the word over his head coach and his teammates over some Raiders fan on a draft forum. Anyone bitching about his route-running obviously hasnt watched enough Crabtree to form a opinion. You say he hasn't improve because your looking at numbers but your not seeing the player and the scheme in which he plays. Alex improved yes, but the philosphy is still pound the ball, ball-control. So regardless of Alex's improvements, Crabs wont get the opportunties others WRs will in more balanced offenses. But of course that's another "excuse" in your eyes. You dont think the fact Crabs was stuck primarily on the outside with guys like Brett Swain and Ginn on the other side of the field didnt affect how teams defended him and our offense as a whole? I could sit here and go on and on about how Alex's refusal to throw guys open and just lack of overall development up until this point has hampered ALL the WRs he's played with, not just Crabtree but again another excuse......I get it. There have never been any issues regarding Crabs football IQ or problems picking up any offense so to use that as a excuse why he should be in Cali, running routes and working out with a QB who wasn' t even under contract at the time and not guanranteed to return to Niners, playbook in hand or not, just reeks of someone being overly critical when there was a work stoppage going on. The fact Crabs broke his foot the first day, yet stay for the duration of Camp Alex I think speaks to his commitment at the time. I mean, what else do you expect a guy with a broken bone in his foot to do? You feel Crabtree doesn't work hard enough. I'm saying you still havent giving me proof of this beyond speculation when the coaches and teammates he works with everyday have all said the total opposite.

I'd take you more seriously if every reply wasn't an insult on my judgement, game viewing, etc.

Honestly, you're just a homer that can't accept the fact that your diva WR hasn't done anything notable in the NFL and barely shows any hope of ever showing anything.

I'd be the first to admit that DHB has been a bust according to his draft position, but has outperformed all expectations placed on him. However, you can't even admit that Crabtree has done nothing in the NFL cause he's lazy.

You shutdown my "misguided" opinions on why he's sucked, yet blame everyone and everything else on the Niners for his lack of production. It's the offensive scheme, lack of talented WRs across from him, Alex Smith, injuries, etc. etc. I thought Niners fans would have learned to not make constant excuses for their players' lack of production after having done so for years for Alex Smith. Seriously, the guy is just lazy, it's one tiny thing that is easily fixed. Accepting all the excuses he or anyone makes for him isn't going to help him.

Funny how his teammates and coaches say good things about him to the media and then get on his ass for his lack of effort all the time. It's like teams lie to the media...which we all know never happens...

Ramses Barden, Victor Cruz, Jerrel Jernigan, and Reuben Randle have all been added since Hakeem Nicks was drafted. He must not be good either.

>Comparing a first round draft pick, a future HoF and a premium contract for another receiver to an undrafted free agent and middle round picks

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Quote:

Originally Posted by phlysac

I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.

>Comparing a first round draft pick, a future HoF and a premium contract for another receiver to an undrafted free agent and middle round picks

1. Teams don't have two "1st round" WRs?
2. You mean the "future HoF" that has 28 recs. in 2 seasons and signed a 1-year contract with zero guaranteed money?
3. You mean the "premium" contract that has less TOTAL money than what Joshua Morgan got guaranteed?

1. Teams don't have two "1st round" WRs?
2. You mean the "future HoF" that has 28 recs. in 2 seasons and signed a 1-year contract with zero guaranteed money?
3. You mean the "premium" contract that has less TOTAL money than what Joshua Morgan got guaranteed?

What I mean is that comparing the receivers the Giants have acquired since Nicks was drafted to the receivers the 49ers loaded up on this past offseason is absolute nonsense when you consider the value and money given to each.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by phlysac

I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.

He's so awesome his head coach went out and grabbed 2 WRs in FA and drafted a WR in the 1st round of the draft.

He's not good. The sooner you accept this the better.

I didn't say he was "awesome". Then again I didn't say DHB has been "great". So I'm not sure why I'm getting involved in an argument with someone such as yourself. I responded to your first ignorant post with some logic and then you follow up with this ignorant post. At least you are consistant, if nothing else.

He is good. So I will not accept that. He will have a better career than DHB. You go ahead and accept that.

What I mean is that comparing the receivers the Giants have acquired since Nicks was drafted to the receivers the 49ers loaded up on this past offseason is absolute nonsense when you consider the value and money given to each.

"Money" and "value" isn't a variable in regards to the comment that it was done because Crabtree isn't good. The money and value is a variable because of how little top-talent they had at the position, as a whole.

You think that adding Moss, Manningham, and Jenkins to replace Swain, Hastings, and Jurovich is an indictment of Crabtree?

That's beyond a "stretch."

It was clear that the WR position had the least depth of any position on the team BY FAR. Trent Baalke addressed the issue aggressively. In 2011 one could say "the 49ers don't have much at WR aside from Crabtree." That can't be said in 2012.

The 49ers added 3 talented WRs at a cost of roughly $6.5 Million per season. I don't know how that is considered too much value.

In essence, they added Randy Moss, Mario Manningham, and A.J. Jenkins for essentially the same price as signing Robert Meachem.

"Money" and "value" isn't a variable in regards to the comment that it was done because Crabtree isn't good. The money and value is a variable because of how little top-talent they had at the position, as a whole.

You think that adding Moss, Manningham, and Jenkins to replace Swain, Hastings, and Jurovich is an indictment of Crabtree?

That's beyond a "stretch."

Well said. Its funny how people want to rip Crabtree in a way for the team trying to become more dynamic on offense, which was clearly our weakest link last year, specifically the passing game. If we would have done nothing, these same people would have ripped the front office for not doing anything to improve that area. Ridiculous.

The whole offense will be made better by these moves. Moss is the wildcard, ofcourse, but Manningham, Jenkins, and James undoubtably are more talented than the players we rolled out there last year on a regular basis. Outside of Davis and Crabtree that is.

You think that adding Moss, Manningham, and Jenkins to replace Swain, Hastings, and Jurovich is an indictment of Crabtree?

No, I'm saying that even if it were an indictment, trying to pass it off as an equal one to the Giants adding Cruz and a bunch of midrounders is asinine.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by phlysac

I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.