The fucking orange asshole declared Jerusalem 'the capital of Israel'. Never mind that East Jerusalem is not even IN Israel or that literally all the other countries in the world are opposed, even this disgustingly pro-Israeli country with the most pro-Israeli cabinet we ever had has opposed it.

At the end of the day, what the saga at the UN and subsequent reactions show are three points:

One: That an American abstention from the world’s top council was required to ensure the success of a resolution favoring Palestinian human rights tells us it is time to recognize the American-Palestinian conflict.

And of course, there's the news that Jared Kushner was trying to influence foreign governments' UN vote on Israeli settlements while Obama was still in office.

But I was told that it wasn't at all clear which candidate would be more pro-Israel/anti-Palestinian. After all, Trump said he wanted to be "neutral" between Israelis and Palestinians.

Well, you have to consider the choices. I'm sure Clinton would've tried to go around President Obama to help Israel at the UN and would already have declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel. In fact, Killary probably would've been worse

But you should be happy. The world can't get to the point of hating the US and all its wars unless America does some odious shit first, right? So it's really a good thing.

I'm sorry that you are bothered by me pointing out that 1. you got suckered by Trump's bullshit about being neutral with Palestine and so forth (to some extent) and 2. you viewed Trump's election as the better of the two outcomes, or at least plausibly so.

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No, it wasn't all clear and it still isn't. Killary was in Israel's pocket more than Trumphole at the time.

No, it was pretty clear.

One candidate was running on the Republican ticket, the party which is more pro-Israel, and running on a platform of anti-Muslim bigotry, murdering the families of terrorists and repeatedly praised the idea of massacring Muslims with pigs-blood bullets (based on a false story about Gen Pershing). He was supported by billionaire pro-Israel extremists like Sheldon Adelson*.

The other candidate ran ads about how despicable anti-Muslim bigotry is while giving fairly mainstream** views on Israel.

Trump held up a rainbow flag once, and gave a speech to a black church. This was lip-service that meant fucking nothing whatsoever for his policy choices, and it was obvious. When running a campaign appealing to Christian extremists and ranting about Blue Lives Matter and various anti-black dog whistles, combined with his history of racism, it was obvious that those things meant nothing. When Trump said he would be neutral towards Palestine, it was just as obvious, given that his campaign was based on viciously anti-Muslim demagoguery.

My reasoning is that the candidate that hates and slanders Muslims, and proposes and praises war crimes against Muslims will be worse for Muslims. And it turns out that Palestinians are Muslims. I know it's a bit crazy but one ambiguous statement doesn't erase or even noticeably ameliorate a campaign of hate.

You were looking for a reason to claim that maybe Hillary was worse, so you latched onto bullshit.

*Yes yes, Haim Saban so both sides. She was "more in the pocket of" Zionists than Trump, yet Adelson spent tens of millions more dollars supporting Trump and Republicans than Saban spent to support Clinton and Democrats.

**Yes, the US mainstream is too pro-Israel.

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So please go fuck yourself, you smug bastard.

What's the problem? You're endorsing the claims that I made to mock you in this very thread!

"Killary" might've been worse than Trump, it's GOOD that the US is behaving despicably because it will reduce our influence. Why are you bothered by me repeating your own views?

Please spare me this idiotic bullshit. Schumer is not Trump's top advisor and his administration is packed with strongly pro-Israel/anti-Palestinian folks (starting with Mike Pence and Jared Kushner) so the notion that Schumer's opinion was important is pretty silly.

Yeah, I'm sorry you are still sucked in by Killary propaganda. There is no difference between Democratic assholes and Republican assholes when it comes to the Middle East. The shit that comes out smell exactly as bad. Killary's husband was a disaster for the Palestinians that was unprecendented and has only been overshadowed now (maybe) by Trump. What Trump did was follow up on a congressional decision that both parties collaborated in.

So spare me the sympathy because your lot are just the fucking same. Only more hypocrtitical about it. You pretend to give a fuck.

I'm sorry, they're 93% Muslim, and a few percent are Christians or Druze.

I'm sure Trump is aware of this and gives a shit therefore you've made a very important point that is relevant to his decision-making process about policies towards brown people This is why Trump is deporting Christian refugees back to Iraq and Indonesia.

And hey, I give a fuck. But I also give a fuck about what happens in the US, including the Muslims who live here. And I give a fuck about what happens with Iran, where Trump was campaigning on breaking the deal and upping aggression towards them. And I care about what happens with nukes, and the possibility that an unhinged sociopathic narcissist who's made comments about "why do we have nukes if we're not going to use them?" might start a conflagration that levels Seoul and Pyongyang. And that US inaction on climate change might worsen the outcome, leading to millions more being displaced by rising seas or extreme weather.

But I get it. Palestine is your one issue. US foreign policy and its consequences can be summed up with Israel and Syria. So let's make decisions based on that alone, because otherwise I'm only pretending to care about that issue.

And I guess you only pretend to care about any of the things where Trump is obviously worse. You're the same as the Republicans. But you're more hypocritical about it

No you don't. You would happily have supported Killary's war. But hey, you are superior. I see why you smug assholes manage to lose elections even from moronic fuckwits like Trump. You'll lose the next one too because you haven't changed a bit. And you still pretend the 'Russians stole the election' and that Russian influence is such a problem, while the Israelis are controlling your government, no matter which party's in charge and even the investigation has turned up Israeli meddling. But that elephant which is in both your rooms will never get mentioned.

You saw how happily and gungho I've been for the continuing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan under Obama. I'm sure you can find plenty of posts from me talking about how we need to boost troops there or whatever, right? Cuz I'm a happy supporter, right?

And sorry, but you don't get to just act like war with Iran was an inevitability. Your assumption is basically that Hillary is Killary, therefore she would've undone one of Obama's signature accomplishments and gone against the large majority of her party's congressional caucus because she just loves murder or some stupid shit. It's not based off of her actual statements on the issue.

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But hey, you are superior. I see why you smug assholes manage to lose elections even from moronic fuckwits like Trump. You'll lose the next one too because you haven't changed a bit.

Oh look, the guy who votes for Artikel 1, which has no seats anywhere in a country with proportional representation has opinions about how to win elections. I'm sure your theories can explain the election results in the US in 2017 very well, right?

But hey, everyone knows how pure you are, and how clean your hands are. Sure, Artikel 1 hasn't accomplished jack shit for anyone, your vote for them didn't accomplish jack shit for anyone, but when it comes to electoral politics "love me, I'm a lefty".

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And you still pretend the 'Russians stole the election' and that Russian influence is such a problem

I mean, we've seen all the sketchy connections between the Trump campaign and Russian agents, but it's still fake news to you. Don Jr gets an email just casually saying "part of the Russian government's support for your father" and he says "I love it!" Russia gets hundreds of millions of views on their propaganda on social media. Russia hacks US political parties and candidates, but none of these things are consequential. None of them could have swung the vote 1%.

It's hard to explain why you'd say so, other than basically Russia opposes the US, so you must defend Russia on this.

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while the Israelis are controlling your government, no matter which party's in charge and even the investigation has turned up Israeli meddling. But that elephant which is in both your rooms will never get mentioned.

Russia colluding with one party, hacking our parties and candidates and election systems and widely distributing propaganda... Can't affect the US election by 2%.

Israel can straight up "control" our government though. I mean, I know Israel punches above its weight, but...

Trump could say he planned to bomb Pyongyang and you'd still be out here talking about how Hillary didn't make a strong enough statement about West Bank settlements so who knows which candidate was worse. For you, the possibility of the Korean peninsula being decimated by missiles can't compare to the possibility that Hillary would take a milquetoast stand for Palestinians and enable Israel to continue encroaching.

Yeah, it's you who keeps bringing up Killary. You lost, get the fuck over it. She was a fucking horrible candidate. The fact that Trump is worse does not make her a good candidate. That is something you don't seem to fucking get. You think anything Trump does makes her look better in retrospect. So you think Trump will make the next Killary you nominate look good. He won't, you'll lose again and again you will blame everyone else. Good luck with that, really,

Great, mickthinks gives his assholey opinion. Now at least I KNOW I am on the right track...

Trump was elected thanks to arrogant assholes like erimir and you, mick, bullying voters. Vote for her or be a sexist. Vote for her or get Trump. You can't fucking bully people into voting for a POS if the only reasons are negative.

So for the thousandth time, mick, go.fuck.yourself and stuff your cheap, poorly thought out, superficial-but-thinks-it's-profound opinions up your Trumphole.

And sorry, but you don't get to just act like war with Iran was an inevitability. Your assumption is basically that Hillary is Killary, therefore she would've undone one of Obama's signature accomplishments and gone against the large majority of her party's congressional caucus because she just loves murder or some stupid shit. It's not based off of her actual statements on the issue.

Well, of course, in 2008, Killary threatened to “totally obliterate” Iran if it attacked Israel with a nuclear weapon. Hmm! Who does that sound like, vis a vis North Korea?

Never mind that the entire idea that Iran would then, or would now, or would ever, attack Israel with a nuclear weapon is totally bonkers wackshit. Never mind that if Iran had a nuclear weapon, and did something so mad as to attack Israel with it, there would be no reason for the U.S. to respond — Israel has its own nuclear weapons, thank you very much!

But there she was, good old Killary on the campaign trail in 2008, threatening to totally obliterate another nation — which can only be construed as the obliteration of its population.

Of course, why should she care about innocent people? Her husband certainly didn’t in the 1990s when he imposed crippling sanctions on Iraq that did not dislodge Saddam Hussen but did bring untold misery, suffering and death to untold numbers of Iraqis. But who cares about them sand niggers, eh?

And of course a few years before her threat to totally obliterate a nation of innocent people, she voted FOR the war in Iraq — another testament to her total lack of judgment, her utter corruption, and her manifest unfitness for the presidency.

Please stop, Erimir. When you are in a hole, stop digging. It’s YOU and your fellow Killary supporter who gave us Donald Trump. Bernie Sanders would surely have held every blue state that Killary won last year, and it’s more than reasonable to suppose that he would have held the Rust Belt states that Killary lost and today he would be president. But no, you see, it was Killary’s turn — as decided by the allegedly neutral DNC, no less.

And Democrats wonder why they are perceived as out touch.

But go ahead and nominate another DNC-sanctioned asshole in 2020 so we can have at least eight unbroken years of Rethuglican rule and all the attendant permanent disasters that will bring.

Trump was elected thanks to arrogant assholes like erimir and you, mick, bullying voters. [...] Vote for her or get Trump.

My God, what an asshole I was. Pointing out how voting works in a first-past-the-post system. So bullying of me to point out that only Trump or Clinton could win, just because it was true.

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You can't fucking bully people into voting for a POS if the only reasons are negative.

I had plenty of positive reasons to vote for her. But you don't evidently care much about the US remaining in the Paris accords, investing in green energy, millions of Americans getting healthcare, the US Supreme Court having a liberal majority (which could affect a large number of issues, such as voting rights, gerrymandering, police abuse, labor rights and more. Look up the Warren Court, the last liberal SCOTUS), affordable childcare and college education, police reform, raising the US minimum wage, investing in diplomacy, gun control, abortion rights, disability rights, etc.

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Originally Posted by davidm

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Originally Posted by erimir

And sorry, but you don't get to just act like war with Iran was an inevitability. Your assumption is basically that Hillary is Killary, therefore she would've undone one of Obama's signature accomplishments and gone against the large majority of her party's congressional caucus because she just loves murder or some stupid shit. It's not based off of her actual statements on the issue.

Well, of course, in 2008, Killary threatened to “totally obliterate” Iran if it attacked Israel with a nuclear weapon. Hmm! Who does that sound like, vis a vis North Korea?

Trump said "North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States. They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen." Not about if it attacks South Korea with nukes or the like. But nice try.

An unwise and overly hawkish statement which was meant to make Obama look weak on Iran, and had the effect of encouraging anti-Iran sentiment in the US, so I disapprove... but which hardly demonstrates that Clinton was dead-set on starting a war with Iran, which is what you were responding to.

A lot has happened in US-Iran relations since 2008, and Clinton was part of making that happen as a diplomat. She campaigned on sticking with the Iran deal and opposed Republican attempts to expand sanctions on Iran last September. There's a reason you're bringing up old shit instead of making the case that Clinton demonstrated a clear intention to go to war with Iran.

Like literally, your entire response to "war with Iran was not an inevitability" is a statement she made once in 2008? Well, she said IF Iran launches nukes, we'll retaliate, so obviously she intended to invade this year

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But there she was, good old Killary on the campaign trail in 2008, threatening to totally obliterate another nation — which can only be construed as the obliteration of its population.

And why is it that it can only be construed that way, as opposed to talking about their military and manufacturing base? I don't see any particular reason to think that she wasn't merely being hyperbolic (words like "destroy" and "obliterate" being frequently used in this way, to mean "defeat soundly").

It's weird how you and Watser don't apply this sort of literal analysis to the slogans "Death to Israel" or "Death to America" though, which are used by Muslim leaders in a few countries and organizations, including by the Iranian government.