No, Jade, you're post wasn't bad at all. It was a little fresh air for me. Thank you very much for being a peacemaker :). I just didn't know how to respond. Honestly, I feel like I'm being picked on a little and as I'm sure you all have at one point you might understand why I disappear from TI so often :( I just wish all people could be loving.

I know Quantum, but emotions don't always follow logic...unfortunately. A lot of things in life are uncertain and I just want to spend every moment of mine doing the things most worth while...still figuring out what they are, but getting pessimistic over TI isn't at the top of my list, ha.

I mean, why do I argue with people, right? Obviously to convince them of what's true. But why would I want to do that? Because I care about their eternal soul and and don't want to see them end up in h.ell and whatnot. Duh.

I do feel picked on (everyone seems to be challenging me and trivializing me lately...was it something I did?), but that's not the real reason I get pessimistic.

I'll argue with someone because I want to give them information so they'll see truth. And I do this because I would very much like to see them in heaven. However, I have lately come to the epiphany (like that word), that arguing with someone isn't really the best way to convince them of the truth.

There's a place and a time for debating, but as my basis for evengelism, just no. Some people can take it but it's too stressful for me. Descussing is far more productive...wherein the party trying to understand actually gives the other person a chance to explain and isn't constantly trying to tare them down ever step of the way, even if it doesn't make sense at first.

Fair enough. Considering your goals I can see that. For me debating is the best way to solidify my ideas and to test them (and if we're talking about formal logical arguments probably the best way to evangelize me actually - Collin has been the most successful and convincing me of stuff by using that method because there is no concievable way I will believe in God unless I come to the conclusion that it is logical)

Long parenthetical aside I see where you're coming from and while I would love you to stay on this forum I can also understand if it isn't the best place to direct your energies.

Oh Quantum, I enjoy talking to you, I really do, and I'm not leaving. I'm just not going to try with all my might to convince everyone around me that what I say is true. I would just appreciate it if people might see that I give up an argument not because I run out of defenses but because I have found it tiresome and stressful (i.e pointless/getting nowhere).

However, if you're looking for pure, logical proof that God exists, I would suggest reading Jason Lisle's book: The Ultimate Proof for Creation: Resolving the Origins Debate. A bold title but as proof, I think it's as ultimate as you can get. Evidence is another matter entirely. I recomend reading that book because it's basically what I believe is logical proof for God. It'll put in to much better words what I said about pressupositional apologetics. I'll let Jason do all my debating for me, haha!

But when it comes to debates, I find that they are far more effective in convincing a person of what they already know, than convincing them of another set of beliefs. Just an observation :P

Collin is very good at what he does. Is it just me, or does he have a natural tallent to pick the arguments that matter?

Quantum: Have you read any of St. Thomas Aquinas' work? He wrote this discourse or something proving that God exists, using arguments that I didn't really understand. Therefore, I thought you might find it interesting. :)
And yes, Collin would be a great pastor. Or priest, you know. *

Dbug, I was picked on by about 15 evolutionists snd only one or two creationists that half way supported me in debate. I understand what u r dealing with:) here's a little encouragement that a fellow inkie posted awhile back "don't argue with stupid people, they'll drag u down to their level and beat u with expierence" :D nothing personal y'all! Shalom Alechiem! PB:) *