There’s been a lot of nonsense from both sides of the EU referendum campaign, but of all the terrible arguments for voting one way or the other, the worst has to be that the UK is not currently independent.

For supporters of Scottish independence, watching people claim the UK is not independent is like someone in Aberdeen who just had their disability benefits cut listening to a middle-class couple on a joint income of £100,000 moaning about paying a few hundred pounds a year more in council tax for their band H mansion in affluent Rubislaw Den South.

It’s particularly loathsome seeing the genuine arguments for Scottish independence being re-purposed by people who claimed they were invalid two years ago – no more so, perhaps, than in the case of George Galloway, the man who wants independence for every country in the world except his own.

The idea that the UK’s situation is comparable to Scotland’s is simply laughable, and since laughing is good for the soul, let’s look at a few points in detail.

WAR

Scotland currently harbours a multi-billion pound nuclear weapons system, sited a mere 30 miles from its most populous city despite the overwhelming cross-party opposition of our MPs in Westminster and our MSPs in Holyrood. Every single person in Scotland could be against nuclear weapons, and it wouldn’t matter a jot – the UK wants them, and the UK decides where to put them.

The EU, however, has no such power to force the UK to hold nuclear weapons. The UK alone decides whether the UK has nuclear weapons and where to put them. The EU also has no power to decide when the UK goes to war, whereas Westminster alone decides if Scottish troops are to be sent on yet another doomed imperialist adventure to die on foreign soil.

MONEY

Scotland gives all its money to the UK Treasury, which then decides how much we’re allowed back in pocket money in the form of the Scottish block grant, using a formula based on Westminster’s spending decisions rather than the actual needs of Scots. (The limited changes in the Scotland Act do not alter the overall trend of money going from Scotland to the UK Treasury.)

This is in direct contrast to the UK’s position with the EU, where the UK keeps all the money it generates and then pays what is effectively a membership fee to the EU out of those proceeds. It’s even allowed to be part of the Multiannual Financial Framework process that decides how big that membership fee should be, which includes a rebate to the UK to try to placate the kind of people who sneer about “the French”.

DEMOCRACY

Regardless of what people say about the unelected EU Commission, the fact is they can only propose laws. For a proposal to be passed as EU law, it must be approved by parliamentarians who were directly elected by the citizens of the EU, in elections using a system of proportional representation. It is not – as some idiots would have people believe – a “dictatorship”.

Compare this to Scotland, where laws are regularly inflicted on us despite near-unanimous opposition from our representatives in Westminster. To add insult to injury, these laws are rubber-stamped at the end by the unelected House of Lords – often by the very same people who were overwhelmingly rejected by voters just a few months previously, or even worse, by people who are there purely because they’ve got the right friends.

And of course, the Scottish Parliament exists only as long as Westminster allows it, whereas the EU has no power to abolish the UK parliament.

THE FINAL INSULT

But the biggest reason this is such an insult is when comparing the referendums themselves. In order to hold a referendum on independence from the UK, Scotland first had to effectively break an electoral system in order to get enough parliamentary support, before asking for permission from the very entity we were trying to get independence from, which then dictated the terms and time-scale under which the referendum could be held.

Even if we had voted to leave, there was nothing actually stopping the UK government from ignoring the result – Scottish Labour would almost certainly have campaigned on a “vote Labour to reverse the referendum result” ticket in 2015.

In contrast, the UK government has had to ask no-one’s permission to hold a referendum on leaving the EU, and is holding it entirely on its own terms. In fact, Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union specifically notes:

“Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.”

It even states the time-scale for such a withdrawal. The only people who could ignore the result of the referendum are the UK government themselves.

This, more than anything, encapsulates the absurdity of trying to claim the UK is not an independent country. The EU is a voluntary union where nations collaborate as equal members, any of whom can leave at any time of their choosing. But Scotland is subservient to Westminster in a union of unequal members. The two situations are not in the least comparable.

If you’re still not sure which way you’re voting on the 23rd June, you could do a lot worse than vote the way that would most annoy the kind of people who make the idiotic claim that the UK suffers from the same democratic deficit as Scotland.

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Wings Over Scotland has no position on the EU referendum. Contributors’ opinions on the subject are their own.

173 to “EU cannot be serious!”

For supporters of Scottish independence, watching people claim the UK is not independent is like someone in Aberdeen who just had their disability benefits cut listening to a middle-class couple on a joint income of £100,000 moaning about paying a few hundred pounds a year more in council tax for their band H mansion in affluent Rubislaw Den South.

The EU and the UK Union are examples of a goodish Union with costs and benefits and control retained, and a truly terrible Union with massive loss of control in all areas but really painfully in those of financial and cultural impact.

Imagine an EU where all the UK’s TV stations were run made in and run from Brussels with a few scattered UK accents and News ‘tailor made’ for the UK public.

The argument the Yes side really made was that Scotland should become sovereign not independent. It would retain shared and/or integrated relationships with the EU, Britain and others where it made sense – this was ridiculed by some on the No side – but cooperation and sharing was at the core of most Yes arguments. What the ‘EU Leave’ side are arguing for is real separation and isolation. It is simply not the way the world is any more, if it ever was.

As the latest absurd scare story about the consequences of leaving the EU is thumped home by the BBC, watching the impotent fury of Brexiters does provide a tangible, if hollow, enjoyment.

As they deride the ludicrous apocalyptic nonsense emanating from the UKG and its main mouthpiece, are these Brexiters even aware that they deployed the same doom-laden crud less than two years ago to batter Scottish self-determination into the ground? Probably not, and even if they were aware, they couldn’t care less..

Most predictably, I have yet to see any mainstream ‘journalist’ point out this contradiction to the likes of Galloway and his Tory Brexiter allies..

Good article Douglas. There is little comparison between the UK and a union comprised of real nation states.

Imagine if the UK only had the same powers within Europe that Scotland has with devolution.. They really would have a valid argument about taking back control. English folks wouldn’t put up with it for a minute and rightly so.

Imagine if broadcasting wasn’t even devolved to Westminster and people had to pay out for a European Broadcasting Corporation, get their main news from Brussels, and every second TV show was the Great European this that or the other..

It’s kinda odd that the Lords etc who think the UK Union is so wonderful and beneficial for Scotland, aren’t seeking a similar arrangement for the UK with Europe… pooling and sharing after all. Come on Tories, hand over all UK revenues to Brussels and send all MPs to Strasbourg, wait what’s that? why ever not?

I’m glad this referendum is taking place just in case anyone had started to forget the drivel spouting out from British nationalists during the Independence Referendum. My favourite feature of the EU referendum is the references to “Project Fear”. It’s actually “Project Fear Mk2”. My favourite referendum personality is one of two famous Tories, either ever-so-humble Michael Gove or the splendidly magnificent Alistair Darling. I’d like to see a lot more of them on TV.

The brit colonialists and their underlings in Scotland are full of sickening hypocrisy. Also what do they mean by “Country” the UK is not a Country-it is a fake political construct like the USSR or Yugoslavia were! Guess they mean the UK is really merry little England after all that is all that matters to that kind.

More Unionists Education lies. Complete and utter lies. Scotland has one of the best education system in the world.

55% of people in Scotland enter FE by 30 (excluding the figures for mature students over thirty). 20.9% starting at further education FR colleges and 34.1% going straight to University after school. Many people in Scotland get a comfortable living from a College education. Improved Skills and trades compared to a University education. Demographics could also be a factor. More older or younger people as a percentage of the population.

In England 46.6% entered FE. More people 55% in Scotland enter FE. (Not including people over 30)

The Labour/Unionists were means testing student loans on household incomes. Students in Scotland in households of average incomes could not get a full loan (paid back) to go to Uni. That has been changed.The SNP Gov has changed that. The figures have still not come through. They are working on older figures.

55% of people entering HE is higher than 46.6%. More people enter HE in Scotland.

Scotland is still educating 20%? of wealthy students from elsewhere, getting a subsidised
education. Money which could be better spent on early learning, keeping class sizes down and additional needs training for teachers. This helps all pupils. More part-time College places which helps vulnerable people.

Trident/illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Westminster Unionist sanction the vulnerable and starve people to death. Most of Westminster Unionists are criminals and should be in jail. There are a complete and utter disgrace. A majority in Scotland do not vote for them.

Brilliant piece Mr Daniels. So concise in it’s appraisal of the relationships and circumstances, which prevail. If only those who, so often misrepresent the truth, and blur the facts, were made more available to be vigorously scrutinised, and made to quallify their arguments. The better it would be for all.
A forlorn hope I fear, as the media who are responsible for that task, are instead too amenable to the establishment’s point of view.
Without Social Media their arguments would go entirely unchallenged. We have much to be grateful to you, and Wings, for your most valuable contributions.

Imagine too if that Brussels dominated media regularly caricatured UK residents as daft underachievers who have managed to turn an unprecedented level of natural resources into a millstone to the extent that we now rely on handouts from their benevolent overlords on the continent…

Training Day – “As the latest absurd scare story about the consequences of leaving the EU is thumped home by the BBC, watching the impotent fury of Brexiters does provide a tangible, if hollow, enjoyment.”

Aye, there is something amusing about watching all the same arguments being deployed, almost word for word at times. The reunion of Osborne, Balls and Cable was beyond parody. They’ve found a template that seems to work, and they’re sticking to it religiously.

Something which didn’t really fit in the article, but which is pissing me off more than anything else at the moment – watching the Leave campaign pretty much getting away with not having a clue what a post-EU UK would actually look like.

We gave people a 700 page blueprint that answered pretty much any question anyone could come up with, and yet the media and unionist politicians still insisted we were asking people to take a step into the unknown and that we had no plan.

The Leave campaign literally cannot answer what shape a post-EU UK would look like – whether it would be in the EEA, EFTA, or whatever – and yet the media generally lets them away with it.

The reason for that, of course, is because the Leave argument mainly revolves around immigration, and there’s not a hope in hell of doing a trade deal with the EU that doesn’t include the freedom of movement of people.

Mind you, if they said what their preferred option was, they’d suddenly find themselves getting asked what their plan B was…

“For a proposal to be passed as EU law, it must be approved by parliamentarians who were directly elected by the citizens of the EU, in elections using a system of proportional representation.”

I doubt this will make any friends, but isn’t this only showing half the picture?

The UK could be unanimously against a law and elect politicians to represent that fact – but still be overridden and forced to live under the law, by foreign countries, ones with entirely different priorities or opinions? This seems quite similar to the Trident/Scotland issue.

Food for thought, but this article overlooks the key underlying principle that destroys all its subsequent arguments:

Scotland is not a country.

Scotland is a region of the UK. Scotland is not different from the rest of the UK. Scottish people are the same as those in the rest of the UK. People who say, I’m a proud Scot actually mean it, they just mean it in the same way that people mean ‘I’m a proud Yorkshireman’.

The above is why I am proud of the Scotland 45 label. I don’t see myself as Scottish anymore, I see myself as Scottish 45, which means:

Scotland IS a country to me. I am NOT a proud Scotsman. I AM proud of actions, not an accident of birth: I’m proud I campaigned for and voted for separation from Westminster.

And yes i find myself disgusted with those yoons that are now using the independence word in context with the UK those gits would not know what independence is,pure hypocracy from shallow minded self serving lying troughers.

As for the EU question i have to be honest and say i dont care,why should i when all we will get is screwed either way,the question to Scotland,Wales and N Ireland means nothing without having control over the membership.

Frankly i am praying it rips England in two and then they might wake up to the reality of what they have allowed to happen to the UK,but then they will still probably vote for some eejit that cant sing or dance more than they do for their so called representative political parties who just do what the hell they please since Englanders are a spineless shower of wimps that always moan their face off after voting in a bunch of useless fuds,well slow on the uptake and have always been this way and is why i think they have no right to decide who should govern my country.

I will vote remain as i see that as the best way to piss them all off but it is definitely not because some pig humping tory wants us to vote remain which i doubt very much he actually wants as i am a firm believer that was why the tories created UKIP so if we do get a brexit they can say wasnt us guv,though since the tory party is split i cant help thinking their master plan has backfired on them what a shame lol

I’ve been reading the EU’s plans this morning and I believe the SNP, the Greens and unbelievably the SSP have shown little understanding of what is going on here.

The eurozone is collapsing, the member states are spending their budgets as they feel fit which has caused overspending in many countries. The EU’s countermeasure to this is to remove the ‘overheads’ of public assets and hand them to capitalists as part of its PUBLIC POLICY.

It’s the same policy as the Tories. It’s the same as TTIP without the US. Read the EU’s own words, it’s all here;

My suspicion is that most folk in Aberdeen have been or are currently,living above their means,racking up quite a bit of personal debt,initially keeping up with the macjones’s,but now it’s just survival,week to week.

It will not end well…….for UKOK….Better Together….Project Fear is the nightmare come true for gullible no voters….for everyone.

EU in appears,to make us less economically vulnerable to Westminster’s ‘scorched earth’ policies of resentment,currently being directed at Scotland.

I also wish to keep/maintain my current level human rights and have no desire to see them replaced with a diluted/diminished Tory lite version.

The UK does not decide if it has nuclear weapons – america lets us. I seem to recall we can’t even use them without their permission. As for decisions to go to war, I think that’s decided for us by the same imperial power. otherwise good piece.

Further UKOK right you go, the more they want out. Murdoch’s a ghastly example, then the reprobates that own open sewers like the Heil, Express, Torygraph. So why does super rich hard core tory tax dodger England hate the EU, is quite a spectacle to behold.

The EU was created on the lines of the USA and member states will eventually be no more powerful than ‘independent’ states of the USA. If people see that as a positive way for Scotland to achieve ‘freedom’ then that’s their call. I would prefer to follow the two most successful European states – Norway and Switzerland; both of whom are not members of the EU.

I live inn England currently and whilst I would generally vote to stay, I am tempted, depending on the polls, to vote Out, if it means England voting Out but Out losing as a result of Scottish votes to stay In.

@Doug
yeah, I wasn’t meaning to imply that I didn’t get that you get it. I’m just expressing my rage in a sort of ironic kind of way cos basically I’m fed up with people playing the whole Schrödinger’s JK dissonance (mixing a few metaphors there) come on Scotland Rugby team, I love Scotland, show me the kilts and bagpipes, wow, so quaint (nice mountains), so rich in history (Darien, Flodden, Culloden etc) but but but oooh, noooooo, Scotland run itself instead of London (I love London, so full of history and educated folk, though I ignore all the immigrants there when I say that of course, I just love the history and the bowler hats and suits and a handful of folk with upper class English accents)? Vote SNP? bl00dy pro-immigration racists, I hate Scotland (but not the kilts and bagpipes, and Flodden), bl00dy SNP anti-English voting Neanderthal socialist Tartan-tories

Example of BBC EU coverage, exact opposite of the endless Project Fear that still pours out of Pacific Quay. BBC Scotland terrorised the life out of Scotland’s democracy 2014 and now its all up to England, they just dont say that, as usual.

Dr Fox – a Scot who represents an English constituency in the House of Commons – said that Scotland’s current first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, had previously described the independence referendum as being “once in a lifetime”.

“It is a decision for all the people of the United Kingdom, and we should take it on the merits of the European Union debate and not be sidetracked into yet another fear campaign about a Scottish referendum.”

Mr Salmond also rejected the so-called Project Fear tactics of the Remain campaign, adding: “It wouldn’t be economic Apocalypse if we left the EU but there’s more jobs and more choices if we stay in.”

But it is not clear how much a UK exit from the EU would impact on support for Scottish independence.”

What happens if the Jocks, Taffs, and Micks vote Remain, and their combined Remain votes swing it in favour of a minority Remaun vote in The Mother Country?
Will Farage, Coburn, Gove, and Tom Harris be demanding Indyref II?

Once upon a time the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland decided to have a Union which they agreed would mutually benefit all
It came to pass that the Kingdom of England decided to take all of Scotlands money and taxes to distribute or spend as they wished Scotland decided that would be OK as long as it was all fairly done

The Kingdom of England then decided all armies and wars would be conducted with them in charge and for that Scotland must pay more to England and because the Kingdom of Scotland was smaller, the Kingdom of England would base all it’s world destructive power next to the most populated area in Scotland

From that time the people of Scotland began to be unhappy as all their money went to the big Kingdom and their lands had been sold off along with their rights to complain about anything

The Kingdom of Scotland had a political party who said “We will represent you and our country and vote against this”
So the people of Scotland had elections and voted for that party to send them to the Kingdom of England as our Union representatives

When the newly elected representatives of Scotlands people went to the Westminster parliament which was originally thought to be for all the peoples of the Union they said “The people of our land are not happy” but when they said this the Kingdom of Englands representatives said “Sod off you’re not equal to us because there are more of us than you”

Scotlands representatives kept trying to improve relations with Englands representatives but were shouted down and mocked in a racist fashion and told in no uncertain terms that the Kingdom of England was in charge and there was no more to be said

In the beginning there was a mutually consented to Union for the benefit of all but the Kingdom of England took over that consent and turned it into Dictatorship and now even the people of the Kingdom of England think that Scotland shouldn’t be allowed a say because nobody is as important as them and might is right because even now, how dare Scotland be involved in the Kingdom of Englands Sovereignty
over their One Nation of England

I have not given the EU Ref much thought, just looked at who was leading the out campaign and decided to do the opposite.
I also believe the establishment want out to enable them to set up their own mini Empire with London at the core, Perhaps Boris is dreaming about Germania with the rest of the island divided into wee kid-on federal states.

maxxmacc: “The EU was created on the lines of the USA and member states will eventually be no more powerful than ‘independent’ states of the USA. If people see that as a positive way for Scotland to achieve ‘freedom’ then that’s their call. I would prefer to follow the two most successful European states – Norway and Switzerland; both of whom are not members of the EU.”

And both of whom have to sign up to pretty much everything the EU decides, but without getting a say in it. “Fax democracy”, as they call it.

Anyway, I can’t remember who it was, but someone gave a pretty good argument against this recently. Essentially, they said that although there was indeed a move for “ever closer union” previously, that idea has been totally sunk by the things that have gone on in Europe over the past few years, not least the rise in Eurosceptic parties. The recent presidential election in Austria is a perfect example – the far right is only just being kept at bay at the moment, but any moves towards further integration would see them start winning national elections and so on.

There are member states putting up borders, despite the Schengen agreement. That’s the complete opposite of “ever closer union”.

Meanwhile the Special One has a new job at Man U and it is his job to return Man U to the top of ahem “British” and European Fitba, according to the UKOK creep show that is the BBC. In addition the ultimate objective is Global Domination according to the same creep show. Even their language in relation to Fitba is Imperialistic.

It begs the question what would the majority of their Premier Fitba Clubs do if the UKOK Imperial Ones voted for Brexit. They certainly couldn’t use EU Rules that allow them to import ahem foreigners where they farm youngsters for three years? from South America etc particularly in Belgium so that they can get them round ahem immigration and visa rules.

If social media, and QT audiences are anything to go by, we will get Brexit, and the SG needs to swing into action. There will be MUCH to be gained in the ensuing Tory wars, and chaos in general.

The EU will positively roll out the red carpet for Scotland, and the horror of being under perpetual Tory rule, should be scary enough for any doubters here.

For those living in Scotland, that want out of the EU, you have to research, and recognise our role on that stage would be magnified hugely, as we occupy such a strategic physical position, and we have so many resources, as well as the trade we already do (c.42% of our trade)

Good analysis. And thanks bjsalba for the link to the “Wee Bleu Book”. It’s a wee nod to Stu’s WBB.

I will vote to stay because our Dear Leader said it was a good thing to do. We cult members must obey.

Personally, I suspect the OUT vote is engineered by the City of London and finance houses determined to escape regulation. Nigel Farage is a former City Trader and his fellow travellers, Boris Johnston and Michael Gove, don’t inspire confidence. If they want OUT then I want IN, for now.

Blimey I thought you were about to say you are ‘proud’ of being north british for a mo!

I voted for an independent Scotland, not separation, that’s reversible and just unionist hogwash and wishy washy.

People in Scotland like it or not, do not have the same mentality as the people of england because they know deep down that their country has been colonised for so long. They have a sense of belonging however, which is all the stronger for that.

Worst case scenario, out of the EU, Scotland shackled to the UK, Boris as pm, trump as president, terrfiying.

I would have considered giving some emphasis to the role of Council of Ministers which is where the real big decisions on Europe have always been taken. Within that Council, the Ministers have all sorts of power to veto legislation and ideas before the Parliament gets near them.

I’ve noticed nobody likes to discuss the Council of Ministers on TV or in newspapers. Easier to attack the Commission and Parliament and moan about the shape of bananas and such.

Every major milestone in the development of the EU in terms of further integration, started life with discussion and agreement in the Council though. It was here, for example, that Thatcher negotiated and agreed to the terms of the Free market, with the SEA, etc., otherwise it would never have happened.

The big argument for Europe is peace. Europe’s roots are in the desire for peace, originating in the creation of the European Coal & Steel Community which was premised on the goal of ‘making war impossible’.

I know people have had fun with the idea that Germany might invade Poland if Britain exits the EU, but peace is still an important consideration. If it wasn’t, there would be no need for NATO which was originally more concerned to contain possible future German aggression, rather than Soviet aggression, by tying them to a lasting military pact.

Anyway, so far, so reasonable. Brexit isn’t going to happen, which is a pity in some ways, but we have the US elections to look forward to. I’m hoping Trump wins, of course, rather than Clinton.

At every stage of our incremental integration with what is increasingly becoming the United States of Europe we have been lied to by Tory & Labour Politicians , the pup we were sold was a free trade area that was all just trade .
TTIP the deal with the USA that has been conducted in total Secrecy must raise suspicions even with the most vocal supporters of the EU what are they hiding ? , The negotiators in the EU are just waiting on the green light and that will be on the result of a stay vote .

AhuraMazda: “I would have considered giving some emphasis to the role of Council of Ministers which is where the real big decisions on Europe have always been taken. Within that Council, the Ministers have all sorts of power to veto legislation and ideas before the Parliament gets near them.”

Aye, but it doesn’t add anything to the point I was making. The Council is made up of government ministers from the 28 member states, so while we may not directly elect the Council in an election, the people who make it up have all had to win a national election to get there – unlike the House of Lords.

The Council ensures the Government of every member state has a say in the process – I can’t for the life of me think of an alternative to that which would be preferable.

Regardless of the way the result goes with the E U referendum,can you envisage the same thing that happened after the Scottish referendum where a really strong polarisation takes place,and the UK in effect was to become so fractured that Government would be almost impossible?

Thoroughly enjoyed reading this article Doug. Summed up things very succinctly. It is great fun watching the Brexiteers squirm under Project Fear2.

I watched the EU debate for young people last night and Alex Salmond was the only panelist to get a good response from the “undecided” group. At the end of the show the undecideds were asked if they had now decided. A very large group put their hands up for remain and only 1 young man for leaving. However it was on the BBC so perhaps the undecideds were not so undecided at the start.

Yes, Doug, understood. I thought the wider point of the article, the general thrust of it if you like, was to take issue with the claim that the UK in relation to Europe had lost its independence when, as compared to the influence we have within the UK, they actually have a lot of independence.

I might have read too fast, I am working and for some reason two cleaners just mistook me for a civilised person who wants to talk about dog fouling. Another half hour of life down the drain… I get that a lot actually, I must have the sort of face that gives the impression I want to talk about dog fouling…

Anyway, you see what I was saying; the Council effectively gives veto power to the UK over stuff and Scotland doesn’t have that sort of power within the UK. If we did, I doubt if we would have consented to HS2 or, as you say, renewing Trident and so many other things.

If we were English people, would we see things differently and vote for Brexit? I would.

Cant wait for this years special UKOK civil service awards! They’re like the Oscars, for professional liars and con artists.

And this year, the Oscar for biggest bullshitter at the impartial and unbiased UKOK civil service goes to

“Impartial and unbiased civil servant said: “In the Treasury, everyone hates you. We don’t get thanks for anything. This is one occasion where we’ve worked with the rest of Whitehall to keep the UK from leaving the European Union.

“We all had something in common, we’re trying to stop the UK from leaving Europe here, and it came so close. We just kept it by the skin of our teeth. I actually cried when the result came in. After 10 years in the civil service, my proudest moment is tonight and receiving this award.”

He added: “As civil servants you don’t get involved in politics. For the second time in my life, suddenly we’re part of another political campaign. We were doing everything from the analysis, to the advertising, to the communications. I just felt a massive sense of being part of the operation. This being recognised [at the Civil Service Awards], makes me feel just incredibly proud.”

Another impartial and unbiased Civil servant said: “we’ve learned that it is possible for civil servants to work on things that are inherently political and quite difficult, and you’re very close to the line of what is appropriate, but it’s possible to find your way through and to make a difference.”

And … added: “This award is not just for the Treasury, it’s for all the hard work that was done by all government departments on the European agenda.

“The reality was in all my experience of the civil service, I have never seen the civil service pull together in the way they did behind supporting the UK government in stopping the UK leaving the European Union. It was a very special event for all of us.”

For the balance haha, I have no idea whether civil servant boss and hammer of the Scots Cabinet Secretary and civil service head Sir Jeremy Heywood is and iny or outy.

If people in Scotland feel like me re the EU Referendum then I would imagine the turn out will be very low.

I can’t be bothered taking part in the debate about the EU or reading any of the literature.

I will vote to remain and then perhaps when we have an EU referendum in iScotland I will take more interest.

Should anyone ask me why I am voting to remain I will tell them that I don’t want my cousins in France to become foreigners and I would be very unhappy if I weren’t able to listen to any more French music.

At least we don’t have to have the government the voters in France decide we should have.

I quite fancy just for a bit of fun becoming an EU troll and pretending to be French and posting things like:

I have so many reasons to be glad I’m not English (meaning a resident of England). They end up with really shite governments, so many are disillusioned to the extent they vote for loony UKIP, and realistically they have no hope of changing things significantly.

I do wonder if the whole EngExit thing is a measure of disenchantment with politics in general rather than the EU in particular. Perhaps I’m wrong and there really is widespread English nationalism reacting against perceived loss of sovereignty. As this article points out, they have levels of self determination right now that we Scots can only dream about.

Dream we do, because we have something they don’t have and that is a mechanism via the ballot box to change things completely! All we need to do is ‘man up’ and choose our own path.

Hammer of the Scots Sir Jeremy is not allowed to help Brexiteers because he’s using last referendum rules, EU that is, not the one that made them cry when they heard they’d won in their Scotland region

“We don’t express it in exactly the same way. But basically it gets to the same point that the material we’re not providing to ministers is material that they could use to attack the government position,” he said. “And the civil service would be literally tying itself up in knots if it was supporting the government position but also supporting ministers to attack the government position.”

Its all quite a long way from wining Treasury wonk’s speech after Scotland voted NO, with all the Treasury’s mass Project Fear stuff dumped on us

“we’ve learned that it is possible for civil servants to work on things that are inherently political and quite difficult, and you’re very close to the line of what is appropriate, but it’s possible to find your way through and to make a difference.”

Thank you for this…a stunningly clear and informative article about the EU as well as illuminating the extent to which Scotland is subjugated.

Voters are treated with contempt and ignored by the endless tide of lies, propaganda and stage managed bullshit and kept in the dark about most aspects of the EU…how it works, what our MEPs do, how voters can have a say etc.

Immigration was often raised when I was out leafleting for Holyrood election.People have legitimate concerns about the impact on their communities of increasing numbers of EU nationals.They have nowhere to express those concerns or they don’t want to, for fear of being called racist.

The largest expansion in EU history occurred in 2004 when 10 new member states joined, mostly eastern European countries.A transition period of 7 years was established.Only 3 out of the 15 existing member states decided to open their borders immediately, namely Ireland, Sweden and the U.K. The consequences of this were not managed effectively and people having no say or control over these significant changes.

Westminster governments have consistently failed to provide effective and competent ways of policing our borders, a core responsibility of the state…woefully inadequate and disastrous computer projects which crash, on average, twice a week, understaffing, growth in tourism, asylum seekers etc.This does not reassure the public that immigration is under control, nor does sending a warship to the Mediterranean and underlying prejudices come to the fore.

I will vote to remain, with little enthusiasm.If the government doesn’t get the result it wants, what’s to stop them having another referendum?

All I care about is restoring democracy and independence to our land and its people and excising the cancerous core of Unionism.

Well I see that Satanic TV Aberdeen gave Farage more time than he deserved. The turn out of Fishers for Leave was described a disappointing and a good part of the audience of 100 were actually slavish UKOK hacks.

I am about to have when I was a boy moments. The Scots fishing Fleet is probably a mere 5% of the size it was when our fishing was sacrificed to City of London and UKOK interests by the UKOK Heath Tory Govt desperate to get its mitts on the EU Pie. In fact it might be even less than 5% of its size then.

The days of being able to walk over North East harbours walking on boats are long gone and they aren’t coming back. We have UKOK Govts to thank for most of that destruction but then they have form for destroying whole industries. We have marina’s for UKIP voting white settlers instead! The very idea of having their yachts berthed near fishing boats would give them all verbal diarrhoea!

Could someone please explain to me how independence fits into the EU stated goal of “Ever increasing union”?
Because if you keep increasing a union at some point you do not have separate countries mere regions in a larger state.
No European politicians have been quite open about this while our own who are pro-EU seem to gloss this inconvenient logical fact…
Maybes this is why the biggest brexiteers for SNP members in Scotland with 35pc of brexiteers coming from the Yes side and 16pc from the unionist side (ironic in a way!).
Jim Sillars and many others in your ranks seem to grasp this yet reading your comments on here it seems to escape the majorit on here…
Me? I haven’t made my mind up yet which is why am actually interested in hearing your views on this issue.

The chances of Scotland actually swinging it one way or the other are very small – assuming Scotland votes say 60-40 remain, the rUK vote would have to be closer than 49:51 before we made a difference.

There is stuff about the EU I dont like, but on balance it has been a fantastic thing for Europe when you look at how far we’ve come since 1945.

I will vote Remain, partly in the hope of scenario 1, partly for fear of scenarios 3 and 4.

Much more chance of Scotland getting a second indyref if England votes Leave and Scotland votes Remain. When Scotland regains its independence its people can hold further referendums on the EU, NATO etc.

They’re no different any other greedy nutters but they fished out everything and then they headed north to do the same to Iceland’s waters too.

North Sea once had huge tuna stocks, gone. Spawning herring all along west coast of Scotland spawning in the sea locks, gone. Whales, gone, seals shot off beaches, Atlantic and North sea bird life dying out, oceanic salmon extinct, fished out at sea and Scottish rivers, estuaries like the Clyde once famous for their marine life, all now dead.

Once purse-seining North sea Scottish fleet had emptied the seas of life, they were banned so they headed to the Med and did the same thing there. Today, their successors are using giant EU funded factory fishing ships to empty the deep oceans of off Africa.

If you want to know what UK fishing industry really is, ask an Icelander.

You are forgetting about the old Soviet factory ships as well man. The virtual strip mining of the sea went unchecked and the UKOK Govt did nothing to stop it. I saw plenty of UK boats that did business with the Soviets. It went on with impunity.

It is quite surreal, not a peep from any MSM apart from Channel 4.
The establishment must be shitting themselves because theoretically if 6 by-elections go the other way, vile SNP separatists hold balance of power.

In practice it will have to be more than 6 because DUP/UUP will prop up Tories, but it must still be seen as a major threat to Rule Brittania.

O/T
Scottish working class children less likely to go to Uni than rich children – a “shocking access gap” which has not narrowed in 20 years, a report has found. BBC and Scotsman horrified.https://archive.is/s53Tp

But actually more of them go into higher education. But that’s not the point says the Sutton Trust who produced the report.
Sutton Trust? Well their Board is full of Bankers and Financiers. Isn’t it kind of them to take an interest in our poor children who don’t pay tuition fees – yet.

The phrase is actually “ever closer union” which is arguably quite different from “Ever increasing Union” as you typed.

What you need to appreciate is that there are certain things that we definitely all benefit from with integration in Europe. Trade is a good example. Reducing trade barriers brings down costs for everybody and encourages more trade than would have happened before. Everybody wins in this scenario (almost).

You could conceivably argue that the free market we created resulted in us, the UK, losing sovereignty over tariff barriers and trade. I wouldn’t but you could. But the benefits by far outweigh the costs even if you accept that.

My view is that the UK and Scotland do not necessarily stand to lose meaningful sovereignty if there’s further integration. Not necessarily. It’s always a question of weighing up costs and benefits but one of the key pillars of European thinking is that sovereignty should be reduced to the lowest level possible where integration takes place. They call that subsidiarity.

There are clearly areas where sacrifices are inevitable with deeper integration but outside of say defence and foreign policy, there isn’t much left to be done. In those areas in particular, I think we’d benefit more than we lost. Right now Scotland has no say in those things anyway and the UK has proven to be one of the most belligerent countries in the world so I could only imagine life being better and more peaceful for us all and others if we integrated there.

The Kingdom of England has issued a decree to the former First Minister of the Kingdom of Scotland the Rt Hon Alex Salmond in which it says “When asked a question on Scottish Independence Mr Salmond must refrain from answering” on the grounds that this is not representational of the EU Referendum, only views which represent the United Kingdom are to be discussed

As a citizen of the Kingdom of Scotland that sounds like a very clear intimation that my country is not to be heard from in the Kingdom of Englands EU debate unless the position of that dictatorship alone is represented

I take pause for thought and wonder what the serfs of Wales think, even though they are of even lesser importance than the people of Scotland

I was a polling clerk in Glasgow for the 1975 referendum. Back then everyone seemed very optimistic about the benefits we’d gain from free trade and closer co-operation with our friends “sur le continent”. No surprise then that “yes” prevailed.

Fast forward forty years and what do we find? Well, we’ve seen plenty of benefits for big business and privitised utilities but precious little for the ordinary working man or woman on average earnings (except more competition for fewer jobs, higher food prices and lower wages).

An EU ref is not a major thing like an Indy ref , whatever way the vote goes , not much will change , if its Brexit , you will find borders are still open , fields are full of Romanians making a pound , roads are full of German cars.

Britains state will be EU member with “special status” or some such “exemption, rebate tada”.

I will prob vote “in”, because I like David Cameron and approve of the work he has done, on the workshy.
Funny enough most of my SNP voting friends are going for Brexit as well, entirely because of “immigration , draining the NHS etc”.

What is the Treasury connection? Sir Nicolas Macpherson is Sir Ewen’s son and was the Permanent Secretary to the treasury who dreamt up the block the currency union scam and also quoted as saying civil service Impartially did not apply to the Scottish referendum.

I am sure he would not approve of spending tax payers money on the expensive options of building a long tunnel under the estate or bypassing it by building a bridge over Strome Ferry (No Ferry) .

However, it is real shame as the new road will run right through the a Estate and will be built right past the Attadale Estate House and the lovely gardens!

So all you Highland Wingers, please write to your local councillors and SNP MPs and MSPs to get them to approve the plans and compulsory purchase orders to get this important road upgrade built as soon as possible!

I’m looking forward to England voting to Leave by 51% to 49% and the ‘Celtic Fringe’ voting between 55% and 60% in favour to Remain; thereby swinging the overall UK result to a narrow victory for Remain. Farage will implode!!!

But I can’t see Scotland voting to leave the UK to remain in the EU in the event the majority in the UK wants to Leave, but a majority in Scotland wants to Remain. The majority in Scotland aren’t sufficiently independent of mind to vote for Independence – last time only 37% of the electorate voted ‘Yes’.

It’ll take a UK outside of the EU becoming an utter basket-case, both economically and politically, before Scots will contemplate leaving the UK and joining the long queue to rejoin the EU in her own right; but having been dragged out, the wait to get back in might dissuade the majority from such a course of action…

Irrespective of the EU referendum, in my heart I feel the ‘Indy-ship’ has sailed 🙁

Excellent article Douglas and I’m hoping it’s a sign that Stu IS taking a break.

Like many posters on here I’m not one bit interested which way this vote goes because I’m totally focused on us getting our Independence: Brexit of course MAY help us to achieve that.

However whatever the outcome millions of English people are going to be absolutely livid in a few weeks time: a bunch of very unforgiving, unhappy chappies and the Tory party will be riven by hatred for years to come, especially if Boris ousts Davie. A Nation divided; so divided that I can see England totally disintegrating following this vote, such as a Remain vote resulting in massive support for UKIP, and that’s good news for us (sad for the ordinary English) as they’ll have to channel all their energies into holding their ‘big’ and most important part (to them) of the Union together. Hold another Select Committee review looking for suggestions to resolving problems that should have been addressed over many decades.

Millions of English people are getting a taste of the propaganda machine in action and life, with altered beliefs, will never be the same for many of them again. Some Scots may now be waking up to the fact that they were well and truly duped a couple of years ago …. “hey that’s what they did to us”. Many English relocators, over 360,000 of them, who voted No to Independence previously (and swung the vote) may decide to vote for an Independent Scotland if England Brexits. We’re also hoping to hear from Chilcott soon, seemingly very bad news for Blair and Straw, and the outcome of the ‘battle bus’ electoral fraud. If truth and justice prevail even more bad news for Labour and Tory …. more so their voters …. who to vote for now? All in all interesting times ahead.

This article has highlighted the balance of power between the EU and the UK and Westminster and Holyrood. It outlines a number of key issues but of course we all know there are many more, over and above those so brilliantly described on here, that clearly show how the Scots have been totally subjugated and controlled by a Dictatorship: Described by ‘constitutional experts’ recently as being Internationally ‘unique’ and don’t we Scots know it.

Yesterday Ross Thomson Tory MSP (Aberdeen?) made a speech supporting Brexit. The reasons he gave were loss of UK sovereignty to the EU and his annoyance about unelected individuals in Brussels making decisions affecting the UK. A good example of the Unionist pinball wizard mentality, being reverberated around Scotland, and one of the reasons why we’ll be Independent sooner than later.

And there you go again, “Paula Rose”, flirting with other men. I just posted on this next door, now I come in here and you are doing it here too. It’s all you do. That’s it. Nothing else. Ever. And I’m a troll? Seriously?

This is a politics forum. I know we all go astray from time to time but holy smoke — constant flirting always. It’s embarrassing for me to watch this.

Apart from the very important issues outlined by Rev Stu, even relatively trivial matters, such as on which side of the road to drive, are within the control of the UK parliament while the EU has no say on this.

Moving from the trivial to the important, imagine if the EU had powers over who you could or couldn’t marry, or whether you could divorce and remarry if your marriage broke down.

Thankfully marriage laws are also a devolved issue within the UK, but people who claim that the EU controls all the most important laws really need to look at marriage laws as an example of how laws affecting important decisions they’ll make are not made at EU level.

For most people, whether to marry or not, whom to marry, and whether to remain married, are some of the most important adult decisions they’ll ever take. Marriage laws which affect those decisions are vitally important.

Marriage laws are not decided on at EU level – they’re decided on at national or devolved level.

The EU didn’t decide that Ireland should hold a referendum on marriage equality for gay people – that decision was taken by the Irish parliament, elected by the Irish people and the vote in the referendum was decided on solely by the Irish people.

Scotland’s parliament voted in favour of marriage equality several years ago. Again the decision was not taken at EU level. When Malta voted in a referendum to permit divorce and remarriage, it took that decision on its own.

So from the trivial to the very important, most decisions that affect people’s daily lives are not taken at EU level but at national or devolved level.

The idea that the EU is a ‘superstate’ or evolving into one is nonsense. What superstate has no prisons, no police force, no criminal courts, no army, no air force, no navy, no territory?

Countries that are members of the EU have all of these things but the EU itself has none of these things.

Let me make clear, I like England, I like English folk, I like gardens, the flowers, the wildlife, I don’t like the hypocrisy of the UKOK Flower Show and everything about it, unpopular a view, as it may be, to any gardeners out there.

From the Willy Wonka style, mechanical revolving garden, to the artificial grass, the weed less, gold medal winning, best in show, flowerless garden (that appropriately, has all the atmosphere of an empty graveyard), to the plastic, ‘Elite’ celebrities making their annual cameo, pilgrimage

The contemptuousness, of this whole ‘Empire’ charade makes my blood boil, it’s totally rank…..‘only a silver gong Sherpa, you’re Alpine didn’t quite match my designer bonnet’ said lady muck, ‘or, my hand made spats’, lord dodgy-as-fuck,chipped in, the privately educated ‘expert’ judges sneered at, the devastated Nepalese plants man, who had risked his life, to bring down the rare Arenaria from the North Face of Everest, ‘Thank You, for allowing me, to even be here’…. he smiled, bowing and after delivering, his well rehearsed/tutored, reply, he now looks for an escape, the chance, to quickly make some space….to get as far away as possible, from these cold bloodied, reptilian non people.

‘Isn’t it all just marvellous’ says the pretty ex news reader, to camera, the camera of the state controlled propaganda machine.Dressed in a crisp, red, white and blue uniform, she looks like an airline stewardess, but with all the personality of chain store mannequin, she turned to interview another ‘Elite’…’Ahh Eddy Izzards here’ purring, before realising their outfits clashed, giving him an off camera ‘death stare’.

Beyond the walled gardens, the queues at the food banks grew longer, ‘we got a real treat for you next week though, they promised to drop off any leftover vegetables and bird seed from the big flower show’

Therein lies the hypocrisy of the haves, not even hiding it anymore, shamefully revelling in it, the privileged few, who have escaped the reality of UKOK austerity politics, flaunting their wealth, to the people that did not have a choice, that did not have a chance and all live on ‘prime time’.

In Scotland they use a different tactic; they just use inflatable Tattie-Bogles…..the mere mention of Indyref2, is like a dog whistle to them, self inflating, arms flailing, they begin their carefully choreographed, Westminster Dementer’s klaxonning routine.

Yet when it’s time to discuss Westminster’s policies, they deflate, become hushed, just like the state broadcaster,(stop talking politics, look at the pretty flowers) they don’t want to discuss the corrupt UKOK policies, because that might mean, admitting failure, telling voters the truth, admitting they are wrong and that it’s, not only the austerity policies of the Red/Blue/Orange Tories that have failed, but nearly everything else has, as well.

Thankfully, we have, WoS, WGD, GB, Bateman and others in the new media, who keep us informed, help us to ‘Stop Making Sense’ of it all….there was no act of god, involved in the need for these food banks, the root cause is the Red/Blue/Orange Tory policies, simple….we also know they would rather blame the victims and importantly we also all know, who is benefitting from this totally fukced up state of affairs.

That’s the beauty of ‘Once in a Lifetime’ …not only is it a brilliant song…the singer Scottish…there’s also Talking Heads….here we go.

I am sanguine about a Brexit , I want to stay in , but if the majority votes for out , then hey ho .
Its nothing like the Indy ref , that was all about your identity , can you imagine waking up to hear that iScotland had merged with Greenland !, and we were changing our country’s name to Scotgreenia, our nationality to Scotgreenian,

We could still call ourselves Scottish, but we would not be ,our passports and everything , even the Football team would be different.
Scotland would be a figment of history.
And why you ask , because of massive natural resource potential, great wealth would cascade into our economy through developing Green energy .

It would not manifest into any material change,but there will be loads of intangible changes , that sound good , but are hard to quantify.

save the odd £20 a week, but “education would be more equal” “poor and vulnerable taken care off better” .

It had been well supported by the urban poor , as a “positive solution” , but I think the promises of bigger welfare payments bribed there vote.

All in all what’s the point, a bit like how ScotsIndy sounds to a NO voter.

Sarah Smith enjoyed herself on radio news this evening telling listeners the poorest in our society are denied university places, omitting salient facts to the contrary, and made sure we understood the SNP is BAD, very BAD.

The anti-independence committee known as ‘The ‘New Act of Union’ group is funded by the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust, the same that bailed out the discredited Alistair Carmichael to the tune of £50,000.

Is there a pattern emerging, whereas being an internet troll (Grade 1) for the other side, is now a recognised path into the hierarchy of the smoldering remains of Slab ?

Look what F-F- la balloon got for going down on Lord Foo, and disseminating his bile ! Allegedly.
A poisoned chalice. Yeugh.

Which gets me thinking…
Their shadow minister without scruples, and for parliamentary business shenanigans manager, has a bit of the cottager aboot him ! There’s more than skeletons in his closet.
He’s no shy of a bit internet based fuckwittery either.

Grouse Beater says:
27 May, 2016 at 11:21 pm
Sarah Smith enjoyed herself on radio news this evening telling listeners the poorest in our society are denied university places, omitting salient facts to the contrary, and made sure we understood the SNP is BAD, very BAD.

Why does neofascism UKOK style think we believe they’ve suddenly developed this care and share thing going on with Scotland’s poorest? They’re such dickheads.

euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 11h11 hours ago
the rocks will melt with the sun before the snp admits free tuition is a crap policy.

For me it’s a no-brainer. We vote Remain now to hopefully precipitate another indyref and once we’re independent again we can have another think about the whole EU matter on our own terms ie what’s best for Scotland not what’s best for the UK. I don’t care what’s best for the UK in European terms. The best thing for the UK is that it should become extinct. A curious historical anomaly that our descendents in a bright distant future will look back on with disbelieving bewilderment that anyone could have imagined it would ever have been anything but a complete disaster for the Scottish people.

This is not our race. You don’t like the EU? Tough! You like the EU? Also tough! We have negligible influence on the outcome. No one cares what you think. The result will, like all other matters, be decided for us. To think otherwise is to have delusions of grandeur akin to thinking you can sort Scotland’s ills with the pathetically inadequate powers that the parliament in Edinburgh currently has. It is as my mother used to say, “to aim for the moon and land in the midden”.

We must vote tactica?y and wait.

Vote Remain because it’s the most effective way we have of influencing our fate.

I’ll be voting remain not because of anything Johnson or Cameron says,but because I want to be in rather than out with unrestrained Tories in charge,deciding what human rights we who are outvoted get.

Great explanation there on the distinction between the nature of the unions that we in Scotland are part of. Those ‘unelected’ commissioners are appointed by the elected governments of member states,so not entirely unaccountable as the brexiteers scream.

“His only hope is that nothing tickles him into involuntary physical movement and/or that she’s distracted by tastier prey, then he can make a dash for it.”

Oh brilliant, that’ll work. Sit bad mouthing someone and talking about them all night then when he responds pretend you are ignoring him… what clever member thought this up?

And now I’m supposed to worry that my identity has been discovered? You know what’s funny about that, in real life I’m even more blunt. You think this is rough? What you going to do, beat me up until I stop thinking you are a stupid clique?

Paula Rose says: “OK – who wants to discuss politics?”

Me actually. Who wants to blow kisses and go around scheming and flirting?

I’ve only watched 10mins of each of those videos. My first question is…legally can they change anything within the Act of Union without voiding it. Secondly and I don’t want to put any of the other nations position down as being none of our business, but this union is between Scotland and England. The other two countries are part of England, so why is it the other countries have any say in this. These guys are really pushing my buttons, not only that but it’s all being done with a sleazy smile and nods….

defo @ 22:08, 27.May,
I also watched that EU debate for young people, chiefly to see what Eck would contribute. As you say, he was indeed the most warmly received by the “undecideds”. Plus the “Remainers”, of course. (But those Brexiteers were a decidedly surly-looking lot.)

What I found interesting was that every time Liam Fox or the UKIP woman spoke, there was inevitably one or more mentions of “uncontrolled”. The word count for that was sky high. It struck me then just how much these Brexiteers are yoon control freaks.

It’s another sign of the yoon creeping panic that their 1950’s imperial world is slowly coming unglued, with the awful dawning realisation that trying to prevent it happening is about as futile as trying to stop the tide coming in…

The important point is that this reactor design is untried. No reactor of this type is working ANYWHERE. The question must be asked as to why the Brit Establishment are hell-bent on using untried products.

The QE carriers are another example. Designed and built to be able to use ONLY one variant of aircraft built for one customer. (The F35B specified by and for the USMC). Not fundamentally a carrier based aircraft but for forward ops on land. The USMC remembers Guadacanal!

Probably not. I don’t know if you noticed, but I’m not exactly sociable.

I guess you are doubting my pro-independence credentials. When people go around flirting constantly on here, I have every right to doubt theirs. And I have no particular problem with Paula or anyone in that regard, but it can be done on Twitter or something.

Thanks for that link Grouse Beater. Incredible the amount of cunning that’s going into the plan… Starting with an illusion of powers ‘ask them (all) what they want from the bottom up’ ~ Says it all really! Like their intentions are noble and caring!

Nor did I believe for one moment that it had anything remotely to do with Ireland or Wales and parts of England although he has to present his discussion that way… Dictatorship, control and fear of losing control over Scotland and finances…again… Disrespectful idiots.

In what substantive way did Salmond boost the chances of a second IndyRef in his comments/performance in that dreadful ‘debate’?

As for the big beasts of the SNP embracing the tropes of Project Fear mark 2 that is a dreadfully short-sighted piece of political opportunism. If the UK (the world’s 5th biggest economy) is ‘too small etc.,’ to leave the EU (an arrangement of some 40-50 years) and the change is ‘too risky’ and moreover all of the doomsday forecasts from the usual political and media establishment are the truth with a capital T then it will be mighty hard to argue in the context of an IndyRef 2 that Scotland leaving a 300 year old Union is ‘no biggy’, ‘risk free’ and so on (last time out the SNP could not even offer a moderately intellectually/politically robust answer on what money would be in people’s pockets – a fatally weak aspect of IndyRef 1).

Secondly why do the SNP think everyone in Scotland (including independence supporters like myself) is automatically in love with the profoundly dysfunctional and undemocratic EU? (Read Peter Mair’s ‘Ruling the Void’ for more details on just how bad the EU actually is.)

After all isn’t there polling evidence that the SNP support contains up to 30% of people for leave/Euro-sceptics? Why isn’t the membership of an independent Scotland in the EU a matter for the Scottish people in a democratic referendum or did I miss something?

If Indyref 2 did happen is a Yes vote one for SNP land? That’s simply not very smart politics. After all everyone that is going to vote SNP now has – the independence cause has to now also appeal to people that don’t particularly like the SNP. The best argument for independence is the democratic one. Better for the SNP to say ‘yes we believe in the EU but the political direction of an independent Scotland is always in the hands of the Scottish people” – that’s the fucking key point of Scottish independence!

(last time out the SNP could not even offer a moderately intellectually/politically robust answer on what money would be in people’s pockets – a fatally weak aspect of IndyRef 1).

Eh!.. the pound..

If Indyref 2 did happen is a Yes vote one for SNP land?

You’re conflating Independence with a political party, it is a constitutional argument and to fix a democratic deficit. The SNP though are the only show in town when it comes to getting us to Independence, after that it’s up for grabs…

@ Joe Kinnear
You clearly don’t rate the SNP but are you seriously suggesting that we would be this near to Independence without them? Of course not every indy supporter backs them but they are the only visible route. There was not a coherent enough case put on the currency and IMHO that is where the argument and mood changed. The tipping point to NO. However no other Scottish political party has anywhere near their clout.

I find the strongest argument for voting to remain is that a leave vote is a vote to make Westminster more powerful and give it an even greater influence over our lives.

Spot on there. The Brexiteers are the “ultras” of the yoon world. Why after the indyref anyone here would believe for even a microsecond any promise they make about their wonderful new “Westminster-unchained” is very, very hard to understand. They want control, total control, and after they make a bonfire of all the social protections that the EU guarantees (which is what their “abolishing of red tape” actually means), you can bet your shirt, your house, the whole d*mn show in fact, that Holyrood will be next in their sights. These Kipper types are not in any way Scotland’s friends, and you all had better wake up to that reality toute-de-suite. (Oh, another soon-to-be-illegal foreign expression there! =grin=)

Re the SNP – I do not rate their leadership very highly either intellectually nor politically. Alex Salmond has the demeanour of a dodgy user-car salesman (one week the Euro is wonderful the next it’s not etc). However the SNP are the mechanism, politically, to potentially obtain independence. But a vehicle isn’t the destination. And the issue transcends personalities.

In reality Thatcher and Blair have had more of a role in the rise of the independence movement as they and their regimes have discredited the main political parties of Unionism within Scotland, with people then looking at the only credible alternative (the SNP) – and in turn people have become much more open to the idea of independence. What now needs to happen is for the SNP to actually do some hard thinking.

1) how to persuade soft NOs that are not sympathetic to the SNP (for whatever reason). All the low-hanging fruit has been collected. The incomparably incompetent ‘Scottish’ Labour party can’t really get any more dreadful.

2) far more intellectually robust answers on currency, how a new constitution would be decided upon etc. Alex Salmond basically saying “it will be alright on the night, trust me, no worries” is emphatically not good enough. Why, for example, would a currency union with rUK be the ‘default’ option? All currency unions require a significant loss of sovereignty – how dare the SNP think it’s their right to sign away that sovereignty without the explicit democratic consent of the Scottish people via a referendum on that specific deal?

Equally a currency union is not within the gift of the SNP. Much better to propose something which a Scottish government could deliver. A transitional use of Sterling and the setting up of a Scottish currency – after all Iceland can manage it’s own currency!

I would have thought England moving to the right would only boost the cause of Scottish independence hence all thinking independence supporters should be quite happy if Brexit occurs.

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