None now after all the "improvements" that have been made....the first early Duettos came close, but that's about it, my pre-production prototype Duetto comes closest, but I have modified that considerably from when I first received it..the later production models are a little different (even the preheat system I designed has been slightly altered....to it's detriment). Fortunately the E61 is very forgiving in the dual boiler implementation, so they all work to a degree, some better than others.....however in all the testing I do (Including a pre production R58 prototype), I still struggle to find a dual boiler that gives me the same performance as my early Duetto and I suspect many early serial number Duetto owners would concur.

Looking at a couple of new dual boiler projects at the moment, but not really interested as it's still developing or rather rehashing "the same old tired designs, with different body shells". The glass bead mentality I find so annoying, still seems to exist with most manufacturers.....I now only want to participate in something really new, something designed with the consumer in mind, something a little more 21st century, with a harmonious marriage of old and 21st century technology.

That's the phrase I'm looking for. "Some better than others.". I'm saving my pennies and the Izzo Alex Duetto II is on my shortlist, with the Rocket R58 coming in a close second. So, I'm curious to know how these machines compare,hence the reason why I had to post to this thread. So far, from what people have replied to in my threads and what I've read on the net in those classic "Izzo vs Rocket" shootouts, people have said, "Not much when it comes to what you get in the cup, which one do you like the looks of better? Do you also like that outboard PID thingy?" .. and thats about it. I'm leaning towards the Izzo, only because the PID looks to be considerably more generic, so I think it would be easier to get serviced. From the point of view of Intelligence, the R58 looks to have a much more intelligent PID. I think it wouldn't have killed them to integrate the PID into the front of the machine, but put a door over it so it is hidden. That's just IMHO.

I've heard mixed opinions of the burn vs no-burn wand. I think anything is better than my Silvia.. but I'll have to try it both ways and see what the differences are. I personally like to not burn my hand when I get a little absent-minded in the morning and have a massive derp moment, but that's just IMHO. I can see it being a very saleable feature from a marketing perspective because you don't see no-burn wands on cheaper machines, just higher end ones.

DavecUK Said:

however in all the testing I do (Including a pre production R58 prototype),

I saw pictures of the prototype and they don't look that much different than the production version. I personally think that having the PID outboard wasn't the best design decision though. Then again, I take a different attitude when it comes to appliances. Stainless steel is awesome, but doing that whole 1950's era retro throwback thing really doesn't do anything for me in this modern day and age. I prefer function over form myself.

DavecUK Said:

I still struggle to find a dual boiler that gives me the same performance as my early Duetto and I suspect many early serial number Duetto owners would concur.

Well, I think that is an issue with many niche products. There isn't really any incentive to innovate when what is being done works just fine. I've seen it happen when old people run a company, they end up with this attitude that "This is the way we've always done it, it works and makes us money, why change it? We're not the cheapest and we may not be the best value, but we stand behind our product and you'll like what you get, so there!"

The problem is, innovation costs money. So does engineering. Consider how long Rancilio has made the Silvia for and the very small number of changes they made to it over the span of 20 years from v1 to v3. Mind you, the improvements on the v3 are quite noticeable, but mostly cosmetic... but somewhere in there, nobody at Rancilio said, "You know, we could put a PID in it." .. Because what they have made works just fine, at least from their point of view. You find these machines absolutely everywhere in the retail channels and for some strange reason the price keeps going on up them. Why? See the above paragraph.

This is why a new generation needs to come in, and improve on the "tradizionale" espresso machine and evolve it to perfection. Some people would argue that La Marzocco has done it with the Saturated group, but realistically,only the most dedicated coffee geeks and small shops are going to consider buying a $6700 machine. Espresso machines are eventually becoming a commodity item and Breville is giving the "tradizionale" Italian manufacturer a run for their money, at least from the lower end HX side of things, but it is also a wake-up call for Rocket, Izzo, La Spaziale and a lot of the other manufacturers out there. If Breville can put a massive amount of features into a $1200 low-end prosumer machine, why can't the same features be implemented in a $2700 prosumer machine? It's all about electronics, right?

The key thing is, Microprocessor controlled espresso machines are here to stay. The trick is, how do you convince the older generations who love their pressurestats and electromechanical logic, that going electronic is the betterway to go overall? Some people will argue against it's reliability and I understand that, but realistically, look at the PID they're putting in modern espresso machines. Gicar PID's have a very distinctive look, but they're all the same.Which makes them a generic part, which will be cheap and easy to replace. This is a start towards an espresso machine becoming a commodity, rather than a niche product.

DavecUK Said:

I now only want to participate in something really new, something designed with the consumer in mind, something a little more 21st century, with a harmonious marriage of old and 21st century technology.

That's where I was leading to. This is why we REALLY need another thread now.. but take a look at the Breville Double Boiler. I know it won't be anything like what you are using to seeing, but it carries a lot of consumer-friendly concepts forward which should be in all modern prosumer machines to start with. I mean, Not everyone needs a machine with a built in tamper, but how about a float in the drip tray, so it pops up when the tray is full? How about a built in timer? How about volumetric dosing with the ability for pre-infusion? (La Spaziale already does that.) How about a window so you can see how much water is left in the reservoir? It goes on and on and on.

I realize that the BDB is slated for a completely different market, but the level of engineering which happened with that machine should be the same level of engineering happening at these other manufacturers. For that, they also need to diversify out of the espresso machine market and focus on providing other machines which can support and fund their engineering teams, like juicers, grinders, electric grills, blenders, etc, etc. So they have the resources available to spend money to engineer something better. This is why companies like Breville can do what they do, they make everything!

I guess what I'm driving home is.. If you want go to beyond the call and design a machine which has everything you want, you also have to consider what will sell and what won't. Engineers have to design a machine for what they think appeals to their core customer base, hence the reason why Rocket felt they needed to put the PID outboard, because they're kind of going for the customer which wants form over function. (At least to some degree.) I think a lot of people who use Apple computers kind of have the same attitude, they buy a Macbook not because of the value it presents to them, but because they love its looks.

The reason why I keep coming back to Izzo is because I like the idea of owning a machine with more generic parts, making it more serviceable. At the same time, the smart PID controller in the Rocket is also a draw for me. The only thing I admit that I don't like about the Rocket is how it has a solenoid to switch between reservoir and water line. If that solenoid gets stuck or fails and the reservoir is dry, there is the potential for the pump and the boilers to run dry. Perhaps it is a bit unlikely, but I'm thinking a decade down the road when scale is getting into everything.

There is a quote:

ďA design isnít finished when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.Ē

Garbage In, Garbage Out, for every step of the process. From Beans to grinder, grounds to machine, coffee to cup.

Do you also like that outboard PID thingy?" .. and that's about it. I'm leaning towards the Izzo, only because the PID looks to be considerably more generic, so I think it would be easier to get serviced. From the point of view of Intelligence, the R58 looks to have a much more intelligent PID.

I don't care whether the PID is outboard or inboarded....IF, there is a good engineering reason for doing so. The difference in intelligence between the PID is like comparing a gnat with a mosquito...it makes little difference.

I saw pictures of the prototype and they don't look that much different than the production version.

Oh well....

The problem is, innovation costs money. So does engineering.

It's more about intransigence than about money, those shiny new cases take a lot of money to develop. A higher tech machine would end up no more expensive or only a little more expensive, because a lot of the traditional high cost electronics could be dispensed with.

This is why a new generation needs to come in, and improve on the "tradizionale" espresso machine and evolve it to perfection. Some people would argue that La Marzocco has done it with the Saturated group, but realistically, only the most dedicated coffee geeks and small shops are going to consider buying a $6700 machine. Espresso machines are eventually becoming a commodity item and Breville is giving the "tradizionale" Italian manufacturer a run for their money, at least from the lower end HX side of things, but it is also a wake-up call for Rocket, Izzo, La Spaziale and a lot of the other manufacturers out there. If Breville can put a massive amount of features into a $1200 low-end prosumer machine, why can't the same features be implemented in a $2700 prosumer machine? It's all about electronics, right?

La Marzocco has not done anything super wonderful with the saturated group, it works fine, probably no better than a correctly implemented E61 (beautiful design really). It will have the problem of it's temperature approaching that of the boiler with shot after shot and I would be surprised if the shot temperatures don't gradually rise a little. Does this make a difference in the cup...I doubt it. As for the electronics....once you get the design right, it's just about code.

The key thing is, Microprocessor controlled espresso machines are here to stay. The trick is, how do you convince the older generations who love their pressurestats and electromechanical logic, that going electronic is the better

It all starts from the basics, it may surprise you to learn that none of the big manufacturers I know of have decent version control for the normal prosumer machines....the same sort of version control you would expect for say...software. So it's a BIG leap for them doing anything really innovative.

That's where I was leading to. This is why we REALLY need another thread now.. but take a look at the Breville Double Boiler. I know it won't be anything like what you are using to seeing, but it carries a lot of consumer-friendly concepts forward which should be in all modern prosumer machines to start with. I mean, Not everyone needs a machine with a built in tamper, but how about a float in the drip tray, so it pops up when the tray is full? How about a built in timer? How about volumetric dosing with the ability for pre-infusion? (La Spaziale already does that.) How about a window so you can see how much water is left in the reservoir? It goes on and on and on.

I've already spent considerable thinking time on all this, even specified a lot of it.....it requires people to "think differently", because once you get the control system right, it's surprising the other things that become possible. e.g. on a fundamental level changes such as "no vacuum breaker required", that single change requires 3 new technologies (code blocks), and having no vacuum breaker allows for another new innovation that would not be possible if you had a vacuum breaker. Having no vacuum breaker increases reliability, lowers cost (which helps fund the control system) It's a waterfall of new things once you get the basics right. A window into the reservoir is old thinking, again with the right control system, that level can be simply coded for and a lot more besides.

Engineers have to design a machine for what they think appeals to their core customer base, hence the reason why Rocket felt they needed to put the PID outboard, because they're kind of going for the customer which wants form over function. (At least to some degree.)

Sadly...I think it was because it was easier that way.

The reason why I keep coming back to Izzo is because I like the idea of owning a machine with more generic parts, making it more serviceable. At the same time, the smart PID controller in the Rocket is also a draw for me. The only thing I admit that I don't like about the Rocket is how it has a solenoid to switch between reservoir and water line. If that solenoid gets stuck or fails and the reservoir is dry, there is the potential for the pump and the boilers to run dry. Perhaps it is a bit unlikely, but I'm thinking a decade down the road when scale is getting into everything.

Every solenoid has a shading coil, there are 2 solenoids in the R58, one of which is energised all the time. Yes you could get a solenoid failure, in fairness though, solenoids are quite reliable so a major failure will be a rareish occurrence. The more likely problem is the 60 or 50hz mains buzz that may well develop, .. either because of shading coil failure or the spring tension becomes weak or a combination of both. I personally would not have designed it with 2 relatively expensive solenoids rather than a good manually operated valve. It's not like it's being changed from mains to plumbed very often is it...

There is a quote:ďA design isnít finished when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.Ē

We have a bloody long wait then.....because they need to add some stuff first ;-)

The big problem is, when presented with a shiny new case and a few glass beads we all rush out and buy these machines....market pressure is a great innovator, I suspect if we stopped buying machines for 6 months, we would see some innovation.

Yes, good point.. And one can't argue about how an espresso machine is a showpiece appliance, right? Seriously, it is! It's like when LG made that fridge with the built in TV in it, or people buyingstainless steel appliances because they want to entertain at home and show them off. I won't lie, an Izzo, Rocket, Elektra or even a La Marzocco is pretty impressive sight on a kitchen counter!

DavecUK Said:

A higher tech machine would end up no more expensive or only a little more expensive, because a lot of the traditional high cost electronics could be dispensed with.

I would agree. After the Microprocessor is implemented and the control systems put into place, the rest is just software. Although, I can't really imagine myself upgrading the firmware on my espresso machine unless it was something serious which could impact its operation. Then again, read up on Therac-25. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25Software isn't perfect.. Fortunately, I haven't heard of issues with exploding espresso machines yet.. but I'd rather have my machine blow up than get nuked, at least IMHO. (Preferably neither!)

DavecUK Said:

it may surprise you to learn that none of the big manufacturers I know of have decent version control for the normal prosumer machines....

OK, that does surprise me actually. Especially when minor or major engineering changes need to be reviewed, tested in QA then eventually pushed out to production. The Japanese work on a concept called "Kaizen", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen which works on the concept of continual improvement. This is how their cars went from being absolute junk to some of the most reliable on the road. I think it would take a while before that kind of mentality hits the espresso world.

Oh wait.. It has.. You have too I think. Chris from Chris's coffee has driven manufacturers to improve on things he didn't like, I think that's downright awesome.

When IBM developed the System/360 series of mainframes back in the early 1960's, they bet the whole company on it. They become so successful that an anti-trust lawsuit was filed against themin 1969. Go figure. On the other hand, look at what is happening to Nokia right now.. they bet the farm on Windows phone and they're going to lose it. I realize that is off-topic, but it goes to show thattrying to innovate can go either way.

Damn, I'm so off-topic now, we should be exchanging e-mails instead... PM me from my profile.

Garbage In, Garbage Out, for every step of the process. From Beans to grinder, grounds to machine, coffee to cup.

1) My service boiler temperature says 257 degrees Fahrenheit, which is 125 degrees Celsius. The errata in the manual states that 1.1 bars = 117 degrees Celsius, which would put me at about 1.9 Bars! The steam gauge is reading about 1.15. Why would this be and should I be concerned about this?

2) In the front of the manual, there is a conversion from Celsius to the SCASE group temperature in 1 degree increments. Since my PID can be used in Fahrenheit, is there a chart which shows the conversion in 1 degree increments from degrees F? The default was set to 222 degrees F, which by the chart in the manual means my group temperature is somewhere between 197.6 and 199.4 degrees F.

I recently purchased an R58 and had the same questions as you. I contacted Andrew from Rocket and he mentioned the latest machines service boiler temperatures do not correlate to the manual and to set the service boiler to the highest possible setting. I get about 1.2 when set to 125 Celsius. Also on the boiler you can only set the PID in 1 celsius increments not 1 Fahrenheit increment.

I had the same issue and I can also confirm that after an email to Andrew at Rocket he confirmed that I should set the service boiler temp to its highest setting of 125 degrees Celsius. I get approx 1.2-1.3 bar consistently and steaming the milk is nice and easy now. :-)

I recently purchased an R58 and had the same questions as you. I contacted Andrew from Rocket and he mentioned the latest machines service boiler temperatures do not correlate to the manual and to set the service boiler to the highest possible setting. I get about 1.2 when set to 125 Celsius. Also on the boiler you can only set the PID in 1 celsius increments not 1 Fahrenheit increment.

I actually lowered the steam temp as 1.25 bars is a little too powerful for me (at least for now). You are correct that PID changes for the shot temp in F just mimic the 1 degree C changes as shown in the front of the manual. Kind of annoying but certainly ok.

Another question: So far my pucks are coming out very wet (water pooling on top of the puck). I used to own a Rocket Cellini so I am familiar with Rockets E-61 design and they never came out this way. Are other people having this result and if so are you doing anything about it?

So far my pucks are coming out very wet (water pooling on top of the puck). I used to own a Rocket Cellini so I am familiar with Rockets E-61 design and they never came out this way. Are other people having this result and if so are you doing anything about it?

I talked with WLL's tech support and they think it has to do with too much room between the top of the puck and the screen. The tech told me to use a little more coffee in the basket. This morning I pulled 2 shots, one with 18g and one with 17.5g, and it wasn't as large a pool, although more with the 17.5 than with the 18. I also tried to take my time between the pull of the shot and the removal of the puck to let it have more time to soak in. One other note is that I removed the clip from the PF and just drop my basket in, so perhaps the clip makes the basket sit slightly higher in the PF. Anyone else do this? Anyone else using a non Rocket basket that perhaps would also effect this?

My machine looks exactly like the picture with the gap. Doesn't bother me and I don't think is an issue in any way.

I do not understand your pressure level falling...does it happen during a shot? I haven't seen that but I haven't had mine very long.

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