Quick Links

Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA

The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.

Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.

Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Changes to Concerts

Posts

While I have never attended the concerts (busy with other things at that time and enjoying my personal PAX experience), I can say that I think this is a smart move regardless. This will allow people who want to go to the show to go to the show without having to worry about anything else, and one less thing to lose.

That being said, the conversation about selling tickets just so goes against how I feel PAX should run. One of the main reasons I have hedged about going to Gen-Con is that they try to make money on everything, including the ability to play games. I want my experience to be pure fun, not having to purchase an E-ticket just because someone thinks its the most important thing there (and no kids, the E does not stand for Electronic..ask your parents LOL).

Plus, after seeing the Scalper on Saturday with about 30 passes in his hands to PAX of all kinds from exhibitor, media, and standard...I just shudder to think what would happen if we did that for anything else.

I'm really not sure about this. On the one hand, I'm glad I won't have to get up before sunrise just to make sure I get a concert wristband...on the other, it feels like I'll have to queue up even longer before the concert starts to make sure I get in now. I only got to spend half an hour at the City of Heroes party last year because, even with my wristband, I wasn't sure I'd get a seat unless I was there well before the doors to the main theater opened. So I don't know. I guess we'll see how this works out. I'm really not sure what the solution here should be, but I will say I'd buy priority concert tickets in a heartbeat. I'm not sure I'm saying PAX should sell them, but if they did, I'd definitely buy them.

As far as line management goes...I have to say that, yes, the Enforcers absolutely did the very best job they could, and I'm really glad that no one was allowed to pull the kind of crap that goes on at SDCC, where people just take up space in the panel or two before a really big one to make sure they can stick around for something everyone wants to see. But...yeah, the line situation at PAX East 2010 was really not great, I really didn't like having to queue up an hour or more beforehand and skip every other panel I wanted to see just to make it into the ones I didn't feel I could miss and...if something could be done, I would really love it.

Themiscyra on September 2010

PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 OmeganautAfter time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began

I'm not sure whether to be thankful or upset about the change. In PAXes past, I've never had a problem with getting into a concert, as I had a wristband and there was always plenty of space. This year, though, I was so frustrated with the entire process that I sent a couple of pretty disgruntled tweets to @pax_lines and @Official_PAX. Despite getting up at an ungodly hour and arriving at the Convention Center promptly at 8:00 am Saturday morning, the 500 wristbands available in the Queue Room had *already been given out.* I managed to get one anyway (hooray for that dance competition), but was then informed that it would be a good idea to start lining up at 5:30. All told, I spent five hours of my Saturday waiting in lines to get a seat at the concert.

I, for one, would be happy to pay money if it secured my place in a venue like Benaroya. I only have three days to enjoy PAX, and that time is far more valuable to me than the cost of a ticket. I'm also a fan of reshuffling the line: it'd discourage all of us from camping out super early. But I also think the wristband decision might be best made with regard to the venue. Wristbands for Benaroya Hall seem completely appropriate, as there are only so many seats. But with standing-room-only venues, as they have been in the past, people are permitted to come and go as they please. Seems like not being confined to one seat encourages that.

I really enjoyed the concert I did attend (the sound quality was SO MUCH BETTER), and seats were a nice reward after hours in line. I just can't help but think that there is a better way to manage how people actually get into the venue, whichever one it might be. Keep the ideas coming, everyone! I have no doubt whatsoever that the right solution will surface--you guys are awesome!

Arco, I was in no way impugning how the lines were handled for Pegasus on Saturday. You guys all did the best you could.

I was more whinging about about so many things that were high on *my* list conflicting or being outright opposite each other. This is mostly as regards the concert, as I'm guess Scott & Kris were over by partway through the P&S show, at which point (if it had been last year) I could have gone in to see JoCo to cap off the night.

Instead I had to skip Wil and S&K just to line up for the concert. Sigh. :/

Again, I know you guys did the best you could. I am optimistic about next year. (Especially with more "popular" panels being moved to Main Theater)

I don't attend East (just Prime), but I'm a huge proponent of the other suggestions here of randomizing the "pre-line" when the line is officially supposed to start. It solves a lot of problems in my mind:

1. Crowding from the people who show up early -- if there's no need to be early or guaranteed seating to people who are early, the pre-crowd should be drastically reduced until Enforcers are (presumably) set up to handle it.

2. An extra hour (or longer, in the case of the Acquisitions Incorporated panel) to do other things at PAX instead of fretting over missing a panel I really, really want to make it into.

3. If I split up with friends at PAX but we want to reconvene for the same panel, we can find each other outside the panel a couple of minutes before the official line starts and group up. It's not cutting in line this point, since no matter where we group up at our chances of being at the front, the middle, the back, or out of luck are completely random. The only thing ensured is that we make it in (or fail to make it in) as a group.

The one drawback to this is that it is no longer possible to guarantee you'll make it into any particular panel by being willing to sacrifice an extra few hours of PAX being early. A possible way to mitigate this would be to give every PAX attendee some sort of token (perhaps punching their badge) that gives them priority access to exactly one panel/concert night of their choosing -- but then you'll have people buy extra passes (which we already don't have enough of) or trading to cheat the system.

P.S. An auction of, say, 10 "Jump the line with one friend on all panels of your choosing" thingies for Child's Play would probably raise a ton of money. Just sayin'. (Wouldn't want to do too many though)

I want to start by saying a big thank you to the enforcers for all the work they do on the line. I have the upmost respect for you guys and I do a little Enforcer appreciation thing on Sunday (I was giving away gold coins as Prof. Layton on East 2010)

I want to say that I will actually miss the wristbands. For me they allowed me a degree of assurance I would get a good seat (depending on effort) and almost guarantee I would get a seat.

I liked having the safety net that I could rely to get a seat because unfortunately lines almost always start earlier than advertised (at no fault to enforcers at all). Example: (prime ’10) I show up at 7:30am to see if a line had started before 8am to see a bunch of people already queued up so I had to run and get in the line. I get a wristband. Now fast forward to the concert time around 6pm. The line should start at 7 but the not only there was an army of people in non-wristband line but a ton more in the wristband line. If I had waited any more I may have not gotten in or if I did it would be horrible seats (which is still better than no seat at all).

In a related note, this unfortunately repeated itself for the P.A Signing. I’ll go to the information booth to ask when the line will start, they say in an hour or so but I went over to the queue room to see people have already been there an hour or more!

I understand with PAX you are going to wait. I even bought a game just to play in the lines (Monty Python Fluxx) but I think I am going to have to show up at 4o’clock to get a good seat at the concerts now. I don’t know if we are going to be blessed with seating like with what we got at Prime but I am worried I am going to give up dinner, bring a meal, and bring a cushion.

Selling tickets for it I think will be bad: more scalpers, and it’s just a wristband with a price tag

Randomizing the line or people it in: may cause a riot unless it advertise to the point of ad nauseum.

If you are going to get rid of the wristbands, I would have to suggest to make the music panel a lot earlier. I had a wristband at Prime and beelined it afterword to Benaroya, only to find at least a half hour of wristband line in front of me (still before 7). If there hadn't been a wristband line, this wouldn't have made any sense, as I would assume that someone going to the music panel would also want to go to the concert. I got a really good seat, but I don't want to think of what it would have looked like if there had not been wristbands.

While I did like the wristbands, I do have to say that if you are willing to wait, getting in to the concert was not a problem, only getting good seats. It does not seem like this will turn into a deal breaker.

Yo Sumi, this is Andrew! Frontalot and P&S were great live, and while JoCo was my main reason going to PAX, I would have to say that they were better than him live.

Since this is Pax and geeks these days have smart phones how about a iphone/android/web app that acts as a virtual line system (like what they have in disney world and six flags these days).

You'd still need a real line but admission to the line at specific points in time could be mitigated by the app in a system so incredibly complicated that no one would be able to complain that it's unfair because nobody would understand how it works. Everyone could have a priority system where they rank how much they want to go to panels from 1-5 where they are only allowed to used numbers 1-4 once per day. Then the line would form starting an hour in advance of the pannel where those people who ranked the pannel 1 would be allowed to line up then after 15 minutes those ranking the pannel 2, etc.

Ok, sorry that was only a half serious suggestion.

On a more serious note I think some of the line issues could be solved by scheduling. The basic issue is a sort of economic cost/benefit system where people are willing to pay in valuable "pax time" for the ability to do certain things. Those who are willing to pay the most get what they want. The nice thing about it is that it's a fair system. The problem is that eventually there are so many people willing to pay a lot that it brings down the overall quality of the event. Perhaps the best solution is to schedule more panels and better panels. Also, though it's somewhat mean, scheduling popular panels at the same time would require people to decide between panels instead of picking between exhibit hall and panel (etc).

It is possible to take a similar tactic with concerts. The more that there are similar quality alternatives to going to the concerts the lower the demand on the concerts will be. Perhaps it would be good to have non-main hall venues. (It's something they do at a lot of the big concert festivals.) If you want to see JoCo he'll be in the main hall, but the Protomen (who used to open for JoCo) now get their own venue and there's an up and coming chiptune artist opening for them.

Not to mention how little some people's data worked at PAX because of over-saturation. The best thing to do, in my personal opinion, is to not let people line up or mill around until 15-30 minutes before seating starts. Also better advertising of any streaming of events that is going on and where said streaming will be available.

It might be nice and even helpful to have a second smaller concert venue. A second show would help siphon off people from the main show. If it was a different type of concert, more of a club music theme perhaps, you wouldn't necessarily run the risk of it being thought of as the 'lesser show'.

It would also provide a concert for people who can't get into the main theatre.

This way you both lower demand on the main theater and give some comfort to those who want to go there but can't.

Unfortunately, I can understand how it could be too much in terms of additional cost and setup and therefore not necessarily a viable option.

Not to mention how little some people's data worked at PAX because of over-saturation. The best thing to do, in my personal opinion, is to not let people line up or mill around until 15-30 minutes before seating starts. Also better advertising of any streaming of events that is going on and where said streaming will be available.

I'd honestly say "Don't line up until two hours before (FIRM)" is the best option. Two hours is a pretty ordinary con line, especially for one of the major events of a convention - seems like a nicely equivalent balance between time investment and reward. A line up time an hour prior to seating MIGHT work, I can just see there being some stampede/anger problems if either A) the line opens up slightly earlier than it's supposed to or B) there's a cluster of 30-40 people all showing up the minute the line opens and scrambling for #1 position. Those are both easily solved by randomizing the line start five minutes before it begins.

I feel like half an hour is just too little time to even FORM a line of that many people. Fifteen minutes is definitely too little time. One-two hours is a good compromise between PAX time sacrificed and having the lining-up process spread out over a decent period of time.

I made a point of getting a wristband for both days of concerts and liked the peace of mind that it gave me. Knowing I could show up 15 minutes before doors open and be sure I would get inside was nice. There wasn't a bad seat in there so I didn't care where I sat, just that I got in.

I would have probably skipped the wristbands entirely if I knew that the concerts were being streamed to other places in the convention center, knowing that I could just show up there and get a pretty good view anyway. I had no idea it was being shown in the queue room or anyplace else, and in fact I even kept thinking when I saw the size of the Saturday line "wow that's a lot of people, too bad they can't just stream it to one of the big rooms for everyone who can't get in".

So I would say that doing away with this is fine, but can we please communicate the full array of options for viewing these events so that people can weigh their options properly instead of feeling like they have to make a mad dash to the theater 2 hours early?

I made a point of getting a wristband for both days of concerts and liked the peace of mind that it gave me. Knowing I could show up 15 minutes before doors open and be sure I would get inside was nice. There wasn't a bad seat in there so I didn't care where I sat, just that I got in.

I would have probably skipped the wristbands entirely if I knew that the concerts were being streamed to other places in the convention center, knowing that I could just show up there and get a pretty good view anyway. I had no idea it was being shown in the queue room or anyplace else, and in fact I even kept thinking when I saw the size of the Saturday line "wow that's a lot of people, too bad they can't just stream it to one of the big rooms for everyone who can't get in".

So I would say that doing away with this is fine, but can we please communicate the full array of options for viewing these events so that people can weigh their options properly instead of feeling like they have to make a mad dash to the theater 2 hours early?

I am the same way. I love that i didnt have to sarcarfic that precious precious pax time so it looks like we are going to really really really really really push (really) to have a very firm "you dont start queuing up till 2 hours before" rule which I like because it means usually the last hour of pax expo hall, and 1 hour after that.

Side note: THEY STREAMED THE CONCERTS?! that is awesome. why did i never even hear that?

I made a point of getting a wristband for both days of concerts and liked the peace of mind that it gave me. Knowing I could show up 15 minutes before doors open and be sure I would get inside was nice. There wasn't a bad seat in there so I didn't care where I sat, just that I got in.

I would have probably skipped the wristbands entirely if I knew that the concerts were being streamed to other places in the convention center, knowing that I could just show up there and get a pretty good view anyway. I had no idea it was being shown in the queue room or anyplace else, and in fact I even kept thinking when I saw the size of the Saturday line "wow that's a lot of people, too bad they can't just stream it to one of the big rooms for everyone who can't get in".

So I would say that doing away with this is fine, but can we please communicate the full array of options for viewing these events so that people can weigh their options properly instead of feeling like they have to make a mad dash to the theater 2 hours early?

I am the same way. I love that i didnt have to sarcarfic that precious precious pax time so it looks like we are going to really really really really really push (really) to have a very firm "you dont start queuing up till 2 hours before" rule which I like because it means usually the last hour of pax expo hall, and 1 hour after that.

The problem with that is either people are just going to hang out as close as they can. Either down the block a little, or just across the street. Then you'll have a mob rush. And that won't end well.

It really seems like they just need to focus more on wristbands and not merge the lines at all before the concert. That way you can line up for a wristband in the morning and know you don't need to line up for a long time before the concert as well. This way we can at least eliminate a lot of line waiting and the theatre will still be full.

I made a point of getting a wristband for both days of concerts and liked the peace of mind that it gave me. Knowing I could show up 15 minutes before doors open and be sure I would get inside was nice. There wasn't a bad seat in there so I didn't care where I sat, just that I got in.

I would have probably skipped the wristbands entirely if I knew that the concerts were being streamed to other places in the convention center, knowing that I could just show up there and get a pretty good view anyway. I had no idea it was being shown in the queue room or anyplace else, and in fact I even kept thinking when I saw the size of the Saturday line "wow that's a lot of people, too bad they can't just stream it to one of the big rooms for everyone who can't get in".

So I would say that doing away with this is fine, but can we please communicate the full array of options for viewing these events so that people can weigh their options properly instead of feeling like they have to make a mad dash to the theater 2 hours early?

I am the same way. I love that i didnt have to sarcarfic that precious precious pax time so it looks like we are going to really really really really really push (really) to have a very firm "you dont start queuing up till 2 hours before" rule which I like because it means usually the last hour of pax expo hall, and 1 hour after that.

The problem with that is either people are just going to hang out as close as they can. Either down the block a little, or just across the street. Then you'll have a mob rush. And that won't end well.

It really seems like they just need to focus more on wristbands and not merge the lines at all before the concert. That way you can line up for a wristband in the morning and know you don't need to line up for a long time before the concert as well. This way we can at least eliminate a lot of line waiting and the theatre will still be full.

I agree. If you got a wristband it means you already woke up early and waited hours in the morning. It seems redundant to force those people to then wait hours again in order for the wristband to have any real meaning. I know I was on line for 2 hours before the concert on Saturday. So not merging the lines would mean those with wristbands can see that panel that ends at 6:30 or 7 and still have plenty to time to get to the concert.

Weren't lines merged around 7:30 PM? 30 minutes before the concerts? Also, I support the paid reserved seating thing; but I oppose the 2 hour prior to opening queuing for basically, everything mentioned thus far. And, I wasn't going to line up until 2 hours early like the Expo hall and their rules of 2 hours, but when I saw the tweet about someone coming at like 5-6am, I had to get there early.

I'm not in favour of paid reserved seating. PAX is supposed to be a place where we are all equal. This would give an edge to the people who can afford to buy reserved seating. What about everyone who is coming to PAX on a shoestring budget? I believe that anyone who wants to get into an event, be it the concerts, panels, keynotes, whatever, should wait in line like everybody else.

I'm not one of the people on a tight budget (although my gf would disagree) and I could afford the seating and it would benefit me. Sitting in lines is part of PAX too. I met a lot of people in the line, and had fun. The longer the line, the more awesome the thing you're waiting for.

This may be true, but some of us have more money available than time. All you're saying is that everyone has the same amount of free time, which just isn't true. A limited number of ticket sales wouldn't kill things, and allow those that highly prize admittance at all costs to get it. Make them anywhere from 50-100 bucks and only have 100 of them, there won't be scalping.

In the meeting Reed had in Boston before the first PAX East they asked about VIP tickets that cost more but may have additional swag among other things, similar to NYCC. People were somewhat split even in that meeting regarding it but I think it is safe to say this is something they have thought of before but decided against. If enough people showed interest in VIP tickets with something like guaranteed concert seats then it could be enough for them to revisit it.

This may be true, but some of us have more money available than time. All you're saying is that everyone has the same amount of free time, which just isn't true. A limited number of ticket sales wouldn't kill things, and allow those that highly prize admittance at all costs to get it. Make them anywhere from 50-100 bucks and only have 100 of them, there won't be scalping.

I cannot imagine how you justify this argument. They would be scalped through the roof.

This maybe should go in the suggestion thread, but...
The concerts at East ran so damned late that anyone who had to travel to get to their hotel/get home couldn't reasonably stay for them and still come to early stuff the next day. Not that I have anything against Coultron, but maybe more, shorter concerts? W00tstock 2.5 ran about three hours which was just right.