After all the prevarication, denials and, yes, blatant attempts to deceive, the former governing party, the SDL, finally acknowledged this week what everyone already suspected – that one of its key platforms is the declaration of a Christian state. These people continually treat their fellow Fijians as idiots with the shortest of memories. But who could forget the complete charade of just a few short weeks ago, when two men claiming to represent the SDL appeared before a Constitutional Commission hearing at the Suva Civic Centre.

These guys openly called for a Christian state with some of the media present and the cameras rolling. But when the party president, Solomone Naivalu was subsequently challenged, his response was breathtaking. No, we’re not calling for a Christian state. Who, us? Never mind that he was in the room and the whole thing was recorded. Naivalu tried to duck and weave like a reef fish trying to evade a spear. He kept repeating the mantra that the SDL’s formal submission was still to come while continually avoiding the key question – do you or do you not support a Christian state? Along with the Fiji Sun and Fiji Village, Grubsheet was skewered by the anti-government blogs for supposedly getting it wrong and ascribing something to the SDL that wasn’t true. Well now we know. And it isn’t Grubsheet who has some explaining to do.

In its formal submission, the SDL actually calls for Christianity to be proclaimed the state religion of Fiji. Not only a state governed by Christian principles – which assumes that other religions are also acknowledged – but the religion of government. Quite where this leaves any Hindu or Muslim who might find themselves elected to parliament or appointed to a government job isn’t explained. Do they have to become Christians? Are they expected to join in the prayers that invoke the name of Jesus Christ?

Dr Tupeni Baba presenting the SDL submission (Photo:Fiji Village)

Fijians are untitled to a detailed explanation as to precisely what the SDL plan entails. Does Christian actually mean Methodist, given the strong opposition of the Roman Catholics and other Christian groups to the proposal? Does the strong support of the Methodists for a Christian state merely demonstrate yet again that they are the SDL at prayer? Questions, questions and precious few rational answers. In all seriousness. Is it enough to justify a Christian state on the basis that Christianity ended cannibalism in Fiji? Because this has been the level of this woeful debate. All blind faith and precious little logic.

For Grubsheet, one of the most startling revelations was to see the former Labour Party cabinet minister, Dr Tupeni Baba, sitting on the panel that made the SDL submission. Time was when this distinguished academic moved in much more enlightened circles. He was at the right hand of Dr Timoci Bavadra – that revered, almost saintly son of Vuda – when the sadly short-lived Bavadra Government was removed at gunpoint in Sitiveni Rabuka’s ethno-nationalist coup of 1987. Dr Baba was then a fighter against ethno-nationalism. Now he sits among the racial supremacists of the SDL and advocates religious supremacy – the adherents of the other major faiths in Fiji reduced to second-class citizens.

Never in his time: The late Dr Timoci Bavadra (Photo: BBC News)

Surely Dr Baba must know in his heart of hearts that other major planks of the SDL submission are also highly questionable. It talks about the i’Taukei being insecure because of the establishment of the Land Bank, the removal of the chiefs from the Native Land Trust Board and the imposition of the Surfing Decree. Insecure? What arrant nonsense. There is no change to land title. The i’Taukei continue to have exclusive ownership of more than 80 per cent of Fiji’s land surface. What on earth is there to be insecure about? This is blatantly scaremongering in the Vanua and Dr Baba should be ashamed to put his name to such rubbish.

His former leader and mentor in the Labour Party – the greatest Prime Minister Fiji never had – would be spinning in his grave. It’s certainly inconceivable that Timoci Bavadra – a committed multiracialist – would ever have supported the notion of Christianity being declared the state religion. It’s all extremely depressing, not just for Fiji’s other religions but for any Christian who adheres to Christ’s injunction that one should “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s”. In other words, the separation of the spiritual and temporal, the separation of church and state.

It was especially disheartening to see the former vice president, Ratu Joni Madraiwiwi, line up with the other Bauan chiefs before the Commission and also come down in favour of a Christian state. Ratu Joni has his critics in government but he’s held in the highest regard across the political spectrum for his integrity and intellect. He has many friends across the racial spectrum and among other faiths. What are Muslims and Hindus to make of his own apparent belief that Christianity is superior to their religions? Many would have expected Ratu Joni to have opposed the Bauan position as a matter of principle. Instead he was pictured filing meekly into the Commission behind Ratu Epenisa Cakobau. Is Grubsheet the only one to have noticed a look of distinct discomfort on Ratu Joni’s face?

The truth is that whatever Ratu Joni’s private feelings, Bau is publicly split on the issue of a Christian state. Just as it is on who should lead this traditional pillar of the Vanua and assume the title of Vunivalu. The proof of that was the Fiji Day official address by the President, Ratu Epeli Nailatikau, who is himself a Bauan chief – the son of the celebrated statesman and war leader, Ratu Edward Cakobau. In a notable break with protocol, Ratu Epeli entered the political fray in startling fashion, strongly urging the repudiation of a Christian state because of the potential for division in the country. It was brave and it was correct. Ratu Epeli fulfilled his duty to stand up for the rights of all Fijians as our Head of State. It’s a great shame that more people in the Vanua – and especially other chiefs – haven’t seen fit to follow his lead. Because what the country needs more than anything else is enlightened leadership to heal our divisions, not to sow more. The new Fiji – as it struggles to shake off the shackles of the old – deserves better.

74 Comments

Yep, it did catch my attention that on the Fiji Day celebrations the President would make a noticeable effort to speak his mind on the Christian vs Secular state issue. On one hand I thought he may done better as the President but it came across as more of a personal view. Fair enough. The PM’s speech was good I thought. But to spoil the show the Commissioner (of all people) followed a day or two later with his comments on the matter. Perhaps he was speaking on a personal level as well. Whatever it was, it is a clear indication that this is an important issue. It is becoming more difficult for people to be impartial, particularly those who are usually expected to be impartial. The PM is holding nerve well.

SDL is a racist party.Its leader in prison, a product of government schools funded by mostly non I-taukei remains one of the most racist person in Fiji.I am sure Speight and him have lot of planing to do before 2014.

For once I am in agreement with you, I think the SDL submission was backward looking and would set back development in Fiji for many years.

However, I also believe that if we are to have a true democracy in Fiji the SDL should be allowed to debate these issues in public to give the people of Fiji a real chance to understand the issues behind the argument.

One of the problems with the constitution commission has been the lack of debate. This is one of the most important processes in Fiji’s History and yet not one of the major issues has been properly debated in public because of the restrictions of holding the constitution commission under a dictatorship.

As you say “Because this has been the level of this woeful debate. All blind faith and precious little logic.” The SDL policies would have been exposed on the one hand as would the dictator’s equally blinkered views on the other.

We should be having televised debates on the key issues such as Church and State, Immunity, Proportional Representation, Role of the military etc.

Instead people and groups have made their submissions but there has been no debate and so the public of Fiji are left in the dark about the arguments for and against.

Unfortunately for us Fiji the dictator and Khaiyum are not confident enough in their own legal position or their own arguments to allow the people of Fiji freedom to debate the issues.

THe SDL can’t change it policies mid stream-very simple, it would lose votes especially of the grass roots! So it does whats know in many circles, cary on same! Irrespective of what others believe-“WE ARE CORRECT” ! Why? Because we are the owners of the land. A pretty solid ground to stand on when you come to think of it but it could also be a foundation based on lack of relevance , out dated and on belief systems that can now be challenged or in some case have change! But don’t tell them that. As for the Dr Baba-just another politician unless he is one of thoese that will now argue ‘I have seen the light”-which one is the answer! Dri Yani

I would have been all for a Christian State if the SDL were genuine, but this party hardly sets an example. It contains some of the biggest crooks, fornicators, liars, and opportunists in the land; predators who prey on their own people; some who were selling off natural resources for personal reward (Jale Baba – logging; Navi Naisoro – consultancies and one Peter Foster can shed more light on this);

party also has those selfless christian individuals were kept the most lucrative FHL shares for themselves (ask SDL leader lai Qarase) and were busy lining own pockets, and promoting racial hatred to mask their activities.

Methodist Church was also invited to the party, and their ethno-nationalist poster boy, the right hon. Rev Manaso Lasaro, can tell usa thing or two about adultery and the 2000 mutiny at the army barracks.

Grog Swiper !Bang on TARGET. Now they trying to make peace with what they did to REV Josateki Koroi! It appears the honest people like REv Koroi are just caring on with their lives whilst the guilty are hiding under their sulu

This is why Ratu Joni’s comments last week are so important. Because not only is he a respected figure in the country as a whole, a man all races rightly regard as someone of intelligence and integrity. He has mana in the Vanua and the ability to influence opinion.

If he had the mana and power of influence why was he meekly following other Bauan chiefs in calling for Fiji to be a Christian state ? Ratu Joni has laid bare his fangs – a nationalist to the core

You just said a mouthfull of honeysuckle roses.They have turned into bullfrogs and ugly looking ones too. a REAL Fijian chief should have a 6 pack instead of a 1 pack like 99.99% of them have, plus they should be leading and not sitting like most of them do nowdays, from Chiefs to civs they have become, and people still wonder why Frank closed their shop.

It is very easy to find in this website how Graham Davis gives a spin on an issue and all you vultures come in for the remains. Graham Davis should not be saying anything on Fijian politics. Comments like making “idiots” out of fellow Fijians or making presumptions that Christian means “Methodist” – is mischievious and out of line.

I thought that individuals groups, businesses, parties etc can make submissions based on their belief and conviction. That is what the SDL party has done, the people of Bau have also submitted and naturally the Methodist Church. Those are three big Institutions belonging prodiminantly the iTaukei. That should at least make good discussion or as “Open Debate” has mentioned above, good points for a debate.

No one knows how many other entities have put this point in their submission, for Fiji to be a Christian State. That should be given the respect all other submission are entitled to. To start crucifying Rt. Jone, the people of Bau and the SDL party even before the completion of the Const. Comm. gathering of submissions shows how this process is flawed. Baimnimarama going off at Shameema Ali about an NGO submission, Bainimarama demanding that Immunity be included in the Const. and the best one – submission closed, only the Military will have a special audience with Ghai and deliver their submission. Why ?

Someone should tell Bainimarama, he is not as popular as he thinks he is. That’s the reason why, he and his illegal AG Khaiyum are going around with a truckload of bodyguards.

Trying to use Grubsheet to suqarcoat the illegal regime will not contribute to cleansing their already tainted image. Stopping people and groups from freely submitting their opinions and ideas is even worse.

Vinaka Kathy! The ones who now want democracy were the ones that kicked it out in 1987 and supported the likes of George Speight-so are we to believe them now? I maybe slow but stupid sorry! No wonder as Tomasi mentioned they can’t get 50 people together for a meeting maybe people have realised the leaders of the group which Suli leads are a bunch of con artists!

Suli vinaka na volavola! Thanks for writing last time i remember you spoke you couldn’t string a proper sentence in English withour triping over yourself-the only thing that sounded good was your accent-viavia kai Aussie No! What crap you write you just a figure head they need because they couldn’t really get someone with some solid background in Leadership to run the democratic movement in Aussie! With regards to “tainted image” -were you not a soldier in the army during Rabuka military take over? We not vultures like your mates in the democracy movement who love to run crap as you you going anyway with your bullshits tactics! If you and you mates Roko Ului & Baledrokadroka all former army leaders were for real and had guts how come you can’t get rid of a simple Naval commander in Bainimarama which you all seem to reckon is dopy, stupid, no school! It appers the dope is really you guys-full of it! Meetings here there and everywhere with nothing to produce but DAAAAA! Fool the people by collecting money -as you have promised those in Fiji facing court case for attempting to burn Suva! Vultures that’s what you and your mates in C4.5 are can’t think for themselves. At least we have an exchange of ideas here, some agree and some don’t. If you really sincerely believe in Democracy here’s simple test ask the mmebers of the democracy movement in you Sydney/Canberra how many supported the coups of Rabuka & George Speight? That will give you a picture of how you all look kinda stupid trying to convince those of us who never supported coups, yes never supported coups -we didn’t change sides like you and your fellow mates ncluding Kaitani ! Doce lako lei vunau vei ira na ulukau, o wili sara la o iko ni o dua tale ga na doce! Sa rauta na viavia vuku o saga mada ga me vaka oti na nomu job na boroboro, kua na via mai boroi iko tiko ni o tamata dina-kei mamai na susu vata kei iko mai Raiwaqa/Raiwai kei mami kila vinaka tu na nomu bula! Bush Lawyer!

Hey look its Suliasi Daunitutu!!! The man that stepped the questions regarding his experience, work and academic history!!! Now he wants to be a big man again! Please refer to your last posting and stop side stepping us!!! we are onto your own CON and your history of conning women and young girls! we are all waiting for you to present your background for blog clearance !!! lol

As head honcho of the democracy movement suli daunivutu views himself as some kind of V.I.P, but thats all it is and to be El Presidente of that post does not require any qualification or work experience. Anyone reaching class 4 can be president of fdfm aussie. Here in the US one of the top guys is Tevita Korodrau a visa overstayer, con man and big time womaniser. Hows that for an organisation of democracy. Dou lai veiboici cici mada.

@Samisoni-these mob hate those of us who have seen their cunning and cheating ways over the years, playing the good guys & girls now! Before this they were the key supporters for coups & the dismantaling of democracy-today they cry foul! Yes democracy but not with these con artists leading the show! Can somenone from these democracy groups stand up and tell us what their background was in Fiji before they ran away to Aussei, nz or usa? I will support democracy any day but not with clowns or dopes leading the charge. Give us some genuine leaders-untainted by previous coups or cons than maybe we will see an increase in numbers for their mettings! Almost like going to Church on Sunday whilst the Reverand preaches about “adultry’-good message but the Reverand leads the way in lasa i tuba department! Some how Suliasi and company just don’t seem to get. It appears no matter what is said they seem to have all the answers- so why do we need solution when we have (doce’s) leading the monkey show.

Seriously Gaham Davis? Am sure your father would be so ashamed at your stance in this ridiculous article…a man that was highly respected by the elder generation and for those of us who admired him during our Sunday school lessons…you ought to be ashamed at yourself for towing the line with a debate that is beyond your understanding..

Tia Roko, in your arrogance you have raised the spectre of my dead father to beat me with. How low can you get.

For your information, my father – when he was alive – never once expressed a preference for Fiji to be a Christian state and strongly opposed the Sunday observance push by the Methodist Church after the 1987 coup. He also strongly opposed the ethno-nationalists who took over the church and deposed the then president, Josateki Koroi.

There seems to be no depths to which some of you won’t plunge in your attacks on me. This suggestion of yours isn’t just offensive but totally wrong. I knew my father’s mind. You didn’t. So don’t use him as a weapon to defend the indefensible.

If Fiji is declared a christian state then what churches doctrine is gonna be adopted. If we adopt the doctrine of all evangelical churches then there should be no grog, niteclubs, smoking, pre marital sex, veiqaravi vakavanua and the list goes on or we adopt the methodist one.

Jeffrey, this may be helpful, a Wikipedia entry: The most relevant example for Fiji is Tuvalu.

The following states recognize some form of Christianity as their state or official religion (by denomination):

Catholic
Jurisdictions which recognize Catholicism as their state or official religion:
Alsace-Moselle
Costa Rica
Liechtenstein
Malta
Monaco
Vatican City (theocracy)

The large portion of western Europe which previously held to the Catholic religion was known as Christendom, which was nominally headed by the Holy Roman Empire, a Catholic federation; after the advent of Protestantism and the subsequent Enlightenment, Christendom slowly collapsed as different states declared themselves Protestant or separated the Church from the state altogether.

Other
A number of countries, including Andorra, Argentina, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Portugal and Spain give a special recognition to Catholicism in their constitution despite not making it the state religion.

All Cantons in Switzerland give official recognition to the main churches, i. e. both the Roman Catholic Church and the Swiss Reformed Church, except Geneva and Neuchâtel. Switzerland itself has no official religion.

Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdictions which recognize one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches as their state religion:
Greece: Church of Greece
Other
The Finnish Orthodox Church is not the state religion of Finland but has a special relationship with the Finnish state. The internal structure of the church is described in the Orthodox Church Act. The church has a power to tax its members and corporations if a majority of shareholders are members. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the state does not have the authority to affect its internal workings or theology.

Protestantism

Lutheran
Jurisdictions which recognize a Lutheran church as their state religion include the Nordic countries. Membership is very high among the general population, however the amount of actively participating members and believers is considerably lower than in many other countries with similar membership statistics. Furthermore, all of these churches have lately seen decline in the fraction of the population being members.
Denmark (Church of Denmark)Also the Church of the Faroe Islands is the state church of the Faroe Islands, a territory of Denmark.
Iceland (Church of Iceland) (76,81% of population members at 1 January 2012)

Other
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act.The Church Act can be amended only by a decision of the Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church and subsequent ratification by the parliament. The Church Act is protected by the Finnish constitution, and the state cannot change the Church Act without changing the constitution. The church has a power to tax its members and all corporations unless a majority of shareholders are members of the Finnish Orthodox Church. The state collects these taxes for the church, for a fee. On the other hand, the church is required to give a burial place for everyone in its graveyards. (79% of population members at the end of 2009).The Finnish president also decides the themes for the intercession days. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the Finnish state does not have the power to influence its internal workings or its theology, although it has a veto in those changes of the internal structure which require changing the Church Act. Neither does the Finnish state accord any precedence to Lutherans or the Lutheran faith in its own acts.
Sweden relegated their state church, Church of Sweden, to a national church in 2000. In late 2009 the Church of Sweden had 71.3% of the population as its members in 2009 although only around 20% of the Swedish population believes in any religion. Memberships are high because until 1996 membership was involuntary, all born before 1996 have to actively leave the church.
Norway separated church and state in 2012, the official state church of Norway prior to secularisation was the Church of Norway.

Reformed

Jurisdictions which recognize a Reformed church as their state religion:
Tuvalu (Church of Tuvalu)

Other
The Church of Scotland is recognized as the national church of Scotland, but is not a state church and thus differs from the Church of England. Its constitution, which is recognised by acts of the British Parliament, gives it complete independence from the state in spiritual matters.
All Cantons in Switzerland give official recognition to the main churches, i. e. both the Swiss Reformed Church and the Roman Catholic Church, except Geneva and Neuchâtel. Switzerland itself has no official religion.

Anglican

Jurisdictions that recognise an Anglican church as their state religion:
England (Church of England)
The Church of England is the officially established religious institution in England, and also the Mother Church of the worldwide Anglican Communion. It is the only established Anglican Church. The British monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and is Defender of the Faith. In late-19th-century England there was a campaign by Liberals, dissenters and nonconformists to disestablish the Church of England, which was viewed, in the period after civil Chartist activism, as a discriminatory organisation placing employment and other access disabilities on non-members. The campaigners styled themselves “Liberationists” (the “Liberation Society” was founded by Edward Miall in 1853). Though their campaign failed, nearly all of the legal disabilities of nonconformists were gradually dismantled. The campaign for disestablishment was revived in the 20th century when Parliament rejected the 1929 revision of the Book of Common Prayer, leading to calls for separation of Church and State to prevent political interference in matters of worship.
Lords Spiritual, who are the 26 most senior Archbishops and Bishops in the Church are reserved seats in Parliament in the House of Lords. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Archbishop of York, Bishop of London, Bishop of Durham, and the Bishop of Winchester sit automatically with the 21 longest-serving Bishops. Both the Labour Party and the Conservative Party have proposed reserved seats for the Lords Spiritual in a reformed House of Lords which would contain elected members. Plans to reform the house however, have been abandoned for this current Parliament and so all 26 Lords Spiritual remain in their reserved seats.

@Jeffrey. Another question is what will it mean if Fiji is to be called a Christian state? How will this translate into societal living. This is by far the most difficult bit to tackle. More thought needs to be given to that aspect of the issue. And soaked in a whole lot of prayer.

Sakiusa, if Fiji becomes a Christian state, it doesn’t mean we live a duplicated life to a certain denomination’s doctrine, no. We use the Bible. Do you ever wonder why we have to swear under oath in a court of law holding a Bible ? Why do we ask God collectively in our National Anthem to “Bless Fiji”

This doesn’t mean Fijians are all going to be Christians, no, far from it, all other religions will freely worship in their respective religions, but moral directions, policies, legislations, leadership etc. can be made/formed/practised using the Bible as guide. It cannot be bad for anyone, as Graham Davis himelf will testfy, Biblical teachings cannot disadvantage anyone.

Graham Davis, seriously, why can’t the Methodist Church make a submission without you guys having a go at them. So far, they have followed everything the regime has asked of them, still it is not enough. What is it about the Methodist Church that you dislike ? There are politically driven individuals in every religion, a hindu priest also former Fiji High Commisioner to Australia, has just submitted he doesn’t agree with gay rights, no one said anything about that.

Is that because it is his right ? Well, Methodists too have a right to voice their opinion. You have taken away their right to worship freely, right to gather, right to hold their conference, is it because it’s a predominant Fijian Church ?

You’ve all been having a serious go at the SDL, Methodist Church and Fijian Chiefs. You need to think hard about the upcoming election and where you are taking Fiji if you are trying to segregate these three Institutions from your final resolution.

Suli, what I dislike about the Methodist Church is its arrogance and its bigotry – its arrogance in thinking that it is the only true way and its bigoted approach to others.

There are good and well meaning Methodists. But far too many of them are hypocrites who would not pass even the most basic test of moral uprightness.

The church itself acknowledges the widespread problem of adultery on the part of members of the clergy. These are the pharisees who hurl rocks at other Fijians from their glass houses. It also bleeds its membership dry with its constant demands for money.

But by far the Church’s worst crime is to fuel the fires of ethno-nationalism, to preach the notion of Fiji for the i’Taukei as some form of “God’s chosen people” at the expense of other citizens.

The Church in its current form is a disgrace. I say that as a luveni talatala whose father dedicated his working life to the Methodist Church in Fiji. And I make no apologies for it.

@Suliasi “if Fiji becomes a Christian state, it doesn’t mean we live a duplicated life to a certain denomination’s doctrine, no. We use the Bible. Do you ever wonder why we have to swear under oath in a court of law holding a Bible ? Why do we ask God collectively in our National Anthem to “Bless Fiji” ”

If only swearing on a Bible had some meaning we would have less Fijians in prison-as it it has any significance to some Rev in the Church!

As for the Institutions you mentioned -nothing is sacred under this sun-they are just institutions made by man not God. They are all open to abuse! Here is a very simple exercise when the Suli one would have thought that by now you had more common sense than one would thought you had first coup took place what was the role of the Christian Methodist Church in that coup? What was the role of the GCC at the time? What was the roles played by these Institutions when George Speight took over?
Yes the Methodist Church has ever right to present its submissions what Graham is showing in his articles are the double talk or as the Red Indians use to say ‘talk with forked tongue” of various groups the SDL is a good example! You mention the former High Commissioner mentioning ‘he doesn’t support gay rights’ whats that got to do with the Methodist Church or SDL issues and presentation! You say you support democracy well get it into you head that you living in Australia and freedom of speech is a protected right-we also had a similar right in Fiji until people wanted to play ‘cowboys and Indians” . Now if the likes of the Methodist Church & GCC and iTaukeis had the courage and said no to Rabuka we will not be standing here fiddling with our dicks! You love to bring up Grahams dad -please the late Rev Davies is not the topic of discussion here , he went to his grave lettting the Methodist Establishment in Fiji know of his displeasure at supporting Rabuka. But the best you can do is leave the late Rev to rest in piece! It appears as a Fijian you don’t seem to understand iTaukei protocol with regards to those who have gone on but then am i suprised? The 3 Instituions you mention wasn’t segrated by us here on Grubsheet they segrated themselves with their own stupidity! Let me clarify something for you-the Church has to play a role in guiding people to live a life that Christ did. When strife enters people lives its the Church as an institution that plays the role of Comforter-what did our Church do ? It sided with the law-breakers, yes the coup makers? Its at that time in our lives we need becons & light houses to guide these ships we sail, at NIGHT and when the Darkenss comes! Thats when the Church abandoned its role as Comforter to play politics. It wanted in to be a piece of the action hence it even took the likes of Rev Lasaro and company to have the courage and strength to physically lift Rev Josateki Koroi from his office and remove him form his role! For that deed alone the Curch has never ever found its path back to the light! The Lord we worship needs only 1 Godly person to carry out his deeds ask yourself this why only now ask for forgiveness to what the Church leaders did to Rev Koroi! Rev Koroi has carried on with his life but some are ‘ora tiko na lomadra ena sui ni ika vuka sa mai vaka vuana ena nodrai tovo”. They have paid a terrible price for those deeds BUT they just too proud to admit it! Hopefuly you not that stupid when you make comments about the dead which are so shollow and not worth the time for discussion. Whoever is writing for you ask them to present some worthwhile ideas for us to debate-the true Church of God doesn’t need any defending by us HUMANS, unless you and your crew in the Methodist Church think otherwise!

Jone Madraiwiwi has in the past opposed calls for the establishment of a Christian state in Fiji, saying that it would hinder a “correct relationship” between the overwhelmingly Christian ethnic Fijians and the mainly Hindu and Muslim Indo-Fijian community.

Jone Madraiwiwi also in the past said that proposals to establish a Christian state ignore the potential for division and conflict.

Hi Ghram,
This is a very interesting issue indeed. I wish to make a comment. I have been following up your articles about the issue of Christian state. This is the only issue I beg to differ from your view with all due respect. At the outset, I am completely appalled by the very fact that people I expect the support this are speaking out against it. I expect non Christians to speak out but not Christians. One is you Gram, a son of a former Methodist Minister. Secondly, all Christians leaders who were brought up under an Christian upbringing. I wonder why? Now I realise. We all have considered Christian as a religion. On that basis, I certainly agree. No religion should be given preference even Christian. However, the Christian I know is totally different. The Christian that Bible talks about is not a religion. The Bible talks about two things only – a King, namely JESUS. Secondly his Kingdom. The Bible never talks about a Christian religion. A Christian religion is no different from all other religions. But the Christian the bible talks about is a lifestyle of a Kingdom. In the lifestyle of that Kingdom, there will no coups, no swearing, no littering, no lies, no drugs, no stealing, no corruptions, no grogs and kanikani, no beers, no adultery, no witchcraft, no greediness, no hungry for power, no racism, no nepotism, no poverty, no divorces etc. The police will not be needed in that Kingdom because of the lifestyle of that Kingdom is so perfect and clean. However, the Christian religion we all know is not part of that Kingdom. In Fiji’s history, all people participated in coups of 1987, 2000 and 2006 are all members of Christian religion that we do not want to promote in the our Constitution. That is why some of our leaders and people are so cross with Christian religion. We should promote the only Christian the Bible talks about. This is the best defence we can put up for our children and future generations. There is nothing else. Our resources, , money, constitution, laws, government, our police, military etc cannot save our children from the ever growing social ills that are infiltrating our nation. It is by promoting the lifestyle of the Christian Kingdom the bible talks about. By inserting the Christian state in our constitution I mean the following: one to honour, our LORD JESUS who delivered our ancestors from cannibalism. Secondly, promoting the lifestyle of the Kingdom. If we open it to become secular state, there will be only one victim, our children and grandchildren of the itaukei people. There will be only one group who will regrets, those Christian who opposes the idea. Especially when you in the grave and your eyes are open to see the suffering our children and grandchildren are going through. I love this saying “Prevention is better than cure”.

Lastly, if we want to build a new and better Fiji and make real changes, we must talk substance not personal. We will not achieve good things if we finger pointing and are personal.

@Joseph can’t understand what Grahams Dad has to do with this Christianity thing! As for Christ he didn’t start Christianity-all you need do is read the Bible! If the whole of Fiji was a Christian country -will we still have a prison? will we still have crooks? etc ,etc! Just because it is written on a piece of paper does it make it any holier than the Bible-good thinking but look at its application-its not the writing that counts but the DEEDS we perform! We have been lisenting for too long to theorist about the Christian Church yet no one seems to live whats been preached! Including the talatalas who now drive around in Pajeros! Talk about con! When you dead you dead-you have no feelings, you will not know what your chlidren are doing or sufferring or not! Its what happens in this life that counts-the next one is up for debate. The best thing you can do in life is prepare your children to be good citizens! The core message of Jesus was LOVE! You don’t need anyone else to tell you how to do that neither is it an exclusive right belonging only to Christians! Here ends your lesson. from Talatal Qase in butako toa mai turaki.

Look, Graham, I knew your father too the late Qase Levu Vakacegu. What I have difficulty understanding is how you have come to this conclusion ? Can you post here evidence of what you have posted above ?

Whatever your beef with the Methodist Church or any Fijian organisation, you cannot point fingers, crucify or belittle anyone at this stage of the rre-building process if you want to have a remote chance of succeeding in your endevours.

The three institutions you have chosen to highlight negatively will no doubt hold majority at any referendum, so, if the regime and your disparaging comments are anything to go by – you have a real fight in front of you, and from where I am standing, negative is on your side.

Suli if only the words you have written came from someone of credibility it would make a lot of difference! I am suprised Grubshet has allowed you to publish your rubbish i couldn’t get C4.5 your favourite site & supporter to publish 2 posting in 3 months!

@Kathy. The late Rev.PKD did do a stint back in Fiji in the early 90s. At the church you sometimes attend (Butt St).What I don’t agree with (and I put that mildly)is the way some contributors raise the Rev’s name to get at his son.Anyway he (Suli) has been given the ‘moce vakadua’.

“The Church in its current form is a disgrace”……….. aptly worded Graham. I cannot agree with you more.

In one of my previous postings I did mention that I had personally phoned the top man in the Methodist (Waqairatu), and in my capacity as an active Methodist, I relayed to him my utter disgust at his ramblings on declaring Fiji a christian state.

Back then he was lost for words !!!!!

After the SDL and the Methodist Church’s submission to the Constitution Commission, I again called the Reverend. This time from Australia. After deliberating on other issues and sharing our opinions on Suva’s win in the Farebrother cup win, I again reiterated my disappointment to him, now that he has officially made the Methodist Church’s submission to the Constitution Commission.

He slammed the phone down!!!!!!!!!

Now I am back in Fiji and he refuses to meet with me.

@ Suli,

The Methodist Church has been so cunningly aloowed to involve itself in tne political affairs of the country from a very long time. Politicians of yesteryears saw it as a very convenient and an effective tool to use the Church to get the absolute mileage necessary for their hidden agendas.

The Methodist Church was very instrumental in the set up and the make up of the Taukei Movement in 1987 and the 2000 Speight coup.

Whatever the Methodist Chruch told us the i-Taukeis back then, we had to believe it even when we knew it was not right. The allegience to the Church was paramount and unquestionable.

It has all changed now. We i-Taukeis are not just better educated now but we are now more informed and can make our own wise decisions without any interefence form the Methodist Church and the BLV.

The Methodist Church top brass will know who I am if they read this post.

The way you have described the Methodist Church conducting themselves is exactly the same way, Indian businesses are conducting their corperation.

The regime ministers are not being paid by the National Treasury but by NurBano, Khaiyum’s aunty, why hasn’t anyone pointed this out ?

Any of you FNPF members know that $40million of your money helped build the Tapoo building there near Nabukalou creek ?

Any of you knew that $1.2million qwas loaned to build a seawall in Kiuva ? All I am saying is, there will always be shady characters and those who have ulterior motives in an organisation, it doesn’t mean that the organisation is bad.

That is why we have “law” and we also have parlimentary/redress processes to address these issues.

“The way you have described the Methodist Church conducting themselves is exactly the same way, Indian businesses are conducting their corperation”. .

These are your words, not mine, right mister?

Well, well, well, well Suli my man. So you have confirmed what some of us i-taukeis knew all along.

Maybe you have worked with the indian business elite so you have a honed up view as to the way they conduct their business.
For you to compare and similarize Indian businesses and the Methodist Church sums up really where you are coming from.

@Suliasi What about Qarases mates and the loans they took out to buy properties up in Namadi! One owning 5 houses the one that turned and became a State witness? Question you have to ask is -is Tapoo paying back its loans ? Do we need to go on about the loans -what about you kai vatas who bankrupted the National Bank of Fiji? Don’t come here making out Indians are stealing the NPF funds as for the sea wall at least Voreqe took out loan the one on Bau was done for free! You seem to like point fingers at others without even looking at you own mates in the SDL when they were in leadership! If you ask i am more than willing to share names of the Choro fallows that were in the SDL.

I thank you for that acknowledgement and support concerning my disagrrement with the Methodist Church. And I do hope it is resolved very soon because i, along with some other, represent the vanua of Kadavu and also some parts of Lau of which I am a vasu.

We must, all of us get our acts togetther.

This includes you, me, politicians, SDL, Methodist Church, all other churches ( of all religions), the present regime and everybody else who has concerned interest in the Vanua ko Viti.

Suli, I can tell you there is no moral question mark over those I work with or for. They have the utmost integrity and are trying to achieve a just outcome for everyone in Fiji, not just the one race you represent.

Suli you should have asked that of Qarase, Kaitani, Roko Ului, Baledrokadroka,Rabuka and many , many more! Question is do you have the courage do that as President of the Demogracy No MOvement! Or is it all talk no action?

@Suliasi Daunitutu can i suggest when you write and question others on this site you should look at you crew in Democracy Movement in Aussie ! Can they run through that test of moral uprightness especially people you are working with/for & that include you?

They would not even make it past the first question/step. Unfortunately your blinkers prevents you from noticing well guess what you not only blind but deaf & dumb. Just look around you group???? Or is it too difficulty to see your feet cause you now high and mighty with head in the clouds?

The advocates of Fiji being declared a Christian state, often forget that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

However, good intentions is far from the intent of those advocating a Christian state-their prime motive is a creating a theocracy of serfs, in which the Bau Chiefs and SDL Politicians will become their patron saints.

You said, that the Church has been cunningly involved in politics. I compared that to the cunning ways Indian businesses are conducting their business with the current regime.

If you want I can give you another example, can you call this an action that is the result of morally sound and fair behaviour ?

Bainimarama has his brother in Manilla as a diplomat, he is over 55, while his daughter is CEO of the Ministry of Sports of which she doesnt have any experience or qualification or Bainimarama’s brother in law who is a murderer is now the PS Works.

Naita, you don’t have to curse me for me to get your message, but all I was saying is that, NOT everyone or every group will be free of these people, even the Church.

I don’t know who in particular you guys are going after in the Church, but look at the regime, its leader is no saint either.

@Daunitutu…
Ref your comment, “while his daughter is CEO of the Ministry of Sports of which she doesnt have any experience or qualification “, what a load of crap from you.

Do your research first before you lampoon someone else.

Litiana holds an Economics and Management degree from USP and prior to coming to Fiji she was the Manager Sovereign Assurance based in Wellington. Apparently, she was their youngest manager ever and leap-frogged lots of people because of her ability. To me she is better qualified than some previous CEO Fiji Sports Council. (By the way its CEO Fiji Sports Council NOT CEO Ministry of Sports. Tamani duidui muruka)

Suli is not that bright to use those words, thats another definition of a conman, give your name to others to use on your behalf so you can reap the benefits,Suli is full of Qanibulu (coconut husk fiber)

The problem is not Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism or Islam. God is not the problem. The problem is that in a religious state, men presume to know what God wants us to do. Thereby creating a power structure based on the most powerful foundation of all- a moral code. Yet the people who give themselves the right to interpret that code for others are themselves in need of moral guidance and a little self critical prayer. Who can forget the role of the talatala in Parliament in 2000? Or during the Sunday bans?

I agree with your logic Macbeth, it’s when individuals bend the scripture to satisfy their motives than in my view, the end result will warped. On the other hand, if the scripture is interpreted for its true intention, then the result would be love, understanding, humility etc.

The same could be said about the Muslim faith, we see Muslims as loving, understanding and humble people, but there are some who interpret the Koran differently in which they believe that all those who are non-Muslims, are infidels and should be killed. Radical but they exist.

This doesn’t mean, the Muslim faith is bad, no, just some who have made others believe their interpretation of the Koran.

Nevertheless, the world has branded the Muslim faith as one associated with terrorism. The same has happened in Fiji, a few may have given an unbalanced view of the Bible to the people, it doesn’t neccessarily mean that the Methodist Church is evil or immoral.

Unfortunately, that is how the regime and its followers are viewing the Chirch, because their gatherings have been stopped, their annual conference stopped which in turn, has crippled the Church. Do they deserve that ?

I agree with you Macbeth, God is not the problem, he cannot be the problem. We are and until we interpret the Bible for its true intention, we will always fall short of redemption.

People like you have made Methodist Church in Fiji evil. Your uneducated ministers including present day president is a hypocrite. You support the events of 1987 and 2000 and now you hide behind democracy to push your racist agenda. You are hiding in a country that will not stand your kind of democracy.

You use the UN rights for Indigenous people out of context, so people like Qarese can continue milking system.

You are bad news and I say give it a rest. You have no support, neither you are a christian.You misfits are fighting for your nationalist idealism.You people in Australia are cowards who back stab each other but all of a sudden find unity when it comes to criticising present government.

@ Suliasi Good points made. Macbeth as well. To add to it: Like we all need to do from time to time the Church needs to learn from its past mistakes. A notable mistake in Christianity’s long history is its habit of attaching itself to the secular powers of the day in order to be in a position to do its work. Once it attains that goal of being in power, it tends to make that an end in itself rather than a means to greater ends.

If the Church is to get right its involvement in the affairs of the nation at the strategic level they need to remove themselves (not literally) from and position themselves over and above the secular political affairs of the nation. Easier said than done.

It may help for them to first remember who they are and who they are not. Again easier said then done.

Joseph @ 1326 hrs Oct 19 mentions the word “Kingdom” which signifies the rule of God. In other words Christians as individuals and as groups are citizens of the kingdom that Jesus Messiah ushered in.
So you are a citizen first of this otherworldly kingdom before you are a Fiji/Aussie/Kiwi citizen.

Secondly, you are member of the family of God. Blood may be thicker than water, but spirit should be thicker than both blood and water put together. Remember Jesus redefinition of family when his mother and his siblings wanted to see him in Mk 3:31 onwards? The man basically embarrassed his closest relatives. Thankfully they were at the door outside the jam-packed house and may not have overheard him. But there you have it – your true kith and kin are those who hear the word of God and do it.

Thirdly, you are an ambassador of this heavenly kingdom the most important aspect of which is that you need to re-present accurately the policies of the kingdom you have been appointed, called and sent to represent.

The implications of these 3 points boil down to such things as the obliteration of racial lines, a new identity, the redefining of family and the political nature of Christianity. I think that when Christianity has in the past strayed from its calling as citizens, ambassadors and family of the kingdom of God on earth they become part of the problem that their Sovereign is trying to solve through them.

The alternative course being proposed though will not do any better either, though it is attractive, reasonable and powerful. It has already won many over, the world over. Together the sincere adherents from both sides with a good dose of civility can arrive at a better result. Unfortunately emotion tends to be distracting and clouds good judgement. I’m not against being passionate but emotionalism does not help. The leadership that Graham calls for in this article (second last sentence) will among many other things need to be emotionless. Passionate and emotionless. Easier said then done.

@ Vincent. It comes with the territory. If one can dish it out then one needs to be able to take it as well. Grubsheet seems able to do that.The SDL since launching their website have not wasted any time in taking a swipe back at Graham. I like the idea of a Think Tank membership (which is on their website), as long as they are open, willing, and comfortable enough to having people ‘outside the box’ of their thinking and policies contributing to it. Back to the article – there was no need for them to ‘duck and weave’. Just state the truth. Why be apologetic about your policies. But then hindsight is wonderful. We all from time to time get spooked into saying things we shouldn’t have.

I do sincerely hope the Methodist Church will change their stance towards the issue of Fiji becoming a Christian State.

While majority of Fijians will be against the Methodist’s stance a significant number of iTaukei’s are Methodists themselves and can play a significant role in the ‘political arena’ if united. The SDL and all political parties do know this – as its a numbers game.

Perhaps the best way to soften this stance if the current Govt wants to increase its chances more of winning the next Election is to kindly and amicably reemphasize to the people and members of the Methodist Church again and again through various amicable means the need for a Secular State.

A Secular State that can have Christian principles enshrined in it and even acknowledges the work by early Christians for our great nation. This message needs to go down repetitively to the grassroots and ordinary people – as some people like me who are not very well educated do take time to come to a conclusion on what should be.

As for the other issues brought up by Graham relating to iTaukei’s interests, I think the current Govt and other political parties will now need to re-look into this issue rather seriously and amicably – If not then a significant percentage of iTaukei’s will still not be convinced and become a major dividing factor in future.

Currently – I think a very significant number of iTaukei’s and even reputable ones are still concerned as seen with the change in stance taken by iTaukei reputable leaders. Perhaps what the current Govt sees is still obscure to these iTaukeis and Govt may need to itemize and reemphasize it to the people.

If the current Govt addresses this main issue well I believe it will win the 2014 Election given their very exemplary achievements so far. This is now the main issue that needs to be also balanced with the needs of the other Fijians.

I really don’t know how this can be done but I wish those in authority all the best and do hope they can manage to tackle it well.

The only thing I can offer rather with my very limited knowledge of how things are is that some of the answers perhaps may lie in the Constitution and policies – like not abolishing the scholarships to iTaukeis – but to make things fair a fair number reserved for poor (like less than $20,000 salary) and provinces with less well educated iTaukeis (like Bua, Macuata, Namosi, etc.).

Perhaps Govt can also come up with some new policies for a small number reserved for other poor Fijians. While the rest to be based on merit and applicable for all categories of Fijians.

I used scholarships here as an example – as perhaps someone may ague that since we are all Fijians we should be given the same treatment. I simply am arguing this notion on the lines of being fair. Most iTaukeis are not very highly educated as they simply cannot afford to pay University costs. Given their great numbers but very low ‘University-educated’ poor iTaukeis should be fairly assisted. This to a degree may be has not come out really strongly with the current Govt although it may be actually practiced – hence very difficult for opponents of the current Govt to gauge where this Govt stands. So the current Govt needs to tell the people what it has done and offer detailed stats to support their claims in improving the livelihood of the all the people – esp the iTaukeis.

Anyway, I leave this to you intelligent people and our leaders to sort out and hope our Country will be able to find a very good solution to all these problems as it’s a great risk to our unity and our children’s future.

Thanks Riverside. This is supposed be the purpose of this kind of site. We offer constructive comment as to how we can build up our nation for our people and children. Leaders are reading this site I suppose and like you and me, learning as well. Some comments will hardened the hearts of the leaders as they are humans just like you and me. But when a message is delivered constructively and truthfully with love, even your enemies will receive it.

We must stop politics of self interest, self ideology, hate, division, narrow minded. This will never take us anywhere. It is gives us no profits and hinders numerous opportunities for our growth as a nation and people. Our resources is so much but we hardly see any evidence of benefits to reaching our people. We must pursue politics that promotes interest of the nation, grassroots people, innocent followers etc. We can all live together peacefully and prosperously holistically in Fiji if only our people and leaders agree to be truthful, honest, passionate, visionary and compassion for our people. Small like nation like ours it does not worth to be divided and bickering against another. We have a lot to loose. The message is so simple ‘united we stand divide we fall”. This is not for public services employees union only. Its for the nation. It is for the leaders and followers. It is for the itauklei and non itauklei. It is for the Christians and non Christians. We will not live in Fiji for ever. If you’re fortunate, you will live beyond 70 years. Many dies half the age of this. Many of our great traditional, religious, political, business and governmental leaders have passed away. Sometimes we thought they gonna live for ever in Fiji. However, with all due respect they are all gone by the wind.

We must learn to respect all our leaders whether traditional, religious, political or governmental leaders. All have appointed time in the position they hold. Even Mr Bainimarama is in this category. Even the chiefly family from Bau is in the same category. Respect is the best policy but with right to offer comments constructively and with love and truthful.

Lastly, we all gonna die one day. Leaders and non leaders alike. Non itaukei and itaukei alike. Rich and the poor alike. Old and the young alike. Educated and non educated alike. No one will take a single cent or a land with us. Empty we come and empty we return. Believe in God or not. It means we do not own anything. The real owner is waiting for your return to account whether good or bad.

Our children and future generations deserve a new and better Fiji. They even deserve sensible, visionary, truthful, compassionate fathers and leaders to build a better family, village, vanua and Fiji for them so they can carry out the same legacy. We must all ask a question? What legacy we will leave behind for our children and future generations. What type of Fiji we all envision and care to build for them? They will be the one that will reap and benefit what Fiji we will build and live behind for them. If we love and care for them, we will be careful and wise of all our actions and decisions as fathers, elders, leaders and citizens of Fiji.

I trust and praying the LORD will guide our constitution drafters to build a constitution unique, innovative, integrated and holistic that will promote and build a new and better Fiji for all especially for the sake of our children and future generations. Blessing!

After browsing through the SDL website I do find it very interesting and perhaps ordinary people make like to check it out.

It seems to be cleverly done in a way that it does not accept ‘anonymous’ comments from the public. This I think to a degree may be very limiting and seems to tell people that it does not want debates occurring in the official SDL website. Especially if vulgar and degrading comments are aired in it. Or some SDL member may make a personal comment the Party may not totally agree with.

May be the idea is for other SDL supporting blog sites to copy and paste these stories there and debates can occur in there. This way SDL politicians can use pseudonym and bombard whoever they may like. SDL strong and upper ranking officials using their pseudonyms can even get very vulgar if they choose as their real identities will be protected.

Very smart indeed SDL! Yes – very smart! It seems logic too and perhaps a good approach.

I think maybe the current Govt can perhaps go a notch further by not only creating an official website for their own political party – if one is to be established. But also importantly to create or use a separate and existing intelligent gentlemen/women’s discussion Forum where someone or group of people who are pro their interests to be in charge of this blog. Perhaps these group of people are not to be office bearers of the official party – but only strong supporters to minimize risks of putting the Party in very difficult situations.

The reason I brought this up is perhaps because the current method that maybe employed by the SDL limits the good and constructive discussions that can benefit not only itself but also importantly our beloved nation.

As an example, Coup 4.5 or Fiji Today may copy and paste stories from the new SDL Website and debates occur in there. The problem with this method is that it to me seems very limiting as most times contributors in these 2 sites are usually very vulgar indeed and very difficult to amicably discuss issues that can benefit our nation.

If only there was a pro SDL gentlemen/women’s Discussion website where very good arguments can be amicably aired in it. Rather than the current way things have been discussed where alot of name calling and swears I never dreamt our people would stoop so low to do. This behaviour is very ‘un-Fijian’, ‘un-vakaturaga’, ‘un-Christian’, and is not pleasant in most people’s eyes. Perhaps this could be due to the unpleasant experiences SDL officials went through – which on the other hand they have a right to do so.

Anyway, I believe we need to rise above this level and come together to discuss issues amicably for the benefit of our nation. The way and system we have chosen to employ as perhaps the machinery to undertake this very important communication activity, in my very limited view, please needs to be changed quickly before it consumes the better of us.

Perhaps the current Govt can please consider this – where they after forming a political party – do create or use a gentlemen/women’s Discussion Forum where very good and very intelligent debates can amicably occur in. And like Grubsheet someone or respectable and highly educated group of people to be in charge of the blog to ensure high standards are met and perhaps comments are analyzed and very good logical counter questions raised. Maybe the SDL too and other political parties can please generously consider this very little request.

Anyway, I’m just a simple ordinary person and very much hoping for our country to rise and fly to greater heights for which our dear nation can continue to reap the benefits of being united as one people willing to communicate with love..

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ABOUT GRUBSHEET

Grubsheet Feejee is the blogsite of Graham Davis, a dual Fijian-Australian national working as a media and communications specialist in both countries and in other parts of the Asia Pacific.

Graham has had a four decade-long career in the mainstream media in Britain, Australia and Fiji. He has reported for the BBC, ABC, SBS and the Nine and Seven Networks and has written for a range of newspapers and magazines in Australia, New Zealand and Fiji. His multiple awards include Walkley and Logie Awards in Australia and a New York Festivals Medal in the United States.

More recently, Graham has been a consultant to the GeoPolitical Solutions division of the global communications company, Qorvis-MSLGROUP, which represents a range of sovereign clients around the world. Part of his brief is to assist the Fijian Government with its program to introduce the first genuine democracy in the nation’s history in 2014.

Graham is broadly supportive of the Bainimarama Government's reform agenda but invites comments from people of all political persuasions. Please don't label your return volley "anonymous". Give yourself a name or pseudonym so that readers can track your progress over time.

Many of these postings have appeared in mainstream newspapers such as The Australian and the Fiji Sun – where Graham has been a columnist - and on other websites, including newmatilda.com and Pacific Scoop NZ.

Feejee is the original name for Fiji - a derivative of the indigenous Viti and the Tongan Fisi - and was widely used until the late 19th century.