As much as I hesitate to bring Fungeon into Donjon (they are weird sibilings, but very, very different in execution) ... the "build up from a base" idea is a good one.

I wonder if there's a way to reconcile magic vs. ordinary items? That way there's ONE mechanic for getting loot. You start out with the base fact ("I want a sword (1)") and embellish ("with my two other rolled facts, it's a sword (1) + (1) but also light (1)"). Then the GM runs with it ("You find a masterwork bastard sword (2, enc 1) engraved with the name of Ortok the Bold. You'd better hope this Ortok is long dead.")

Maybe weapons & armor, then, should have two stats: Value and Encumberance. In most cases, they're the same (written as (X)), but in some cases, they're different (written as (X, enc Y))?

This would be fun for cursed items, too. "You have found a dagger infused with dense Heavyium. It's the Black Dagger of Krob (2, enc 4)"

Regular weapons and armor have a rating for Damage (Dam) or Damage Protection (DP).

If a character uses armor with a DP higher than his Virility, his Adroitness suffers a penalty for each die of DP higher than Virility.

Example: A character with Vir 3 wearing plate mail (DP 4) suffers a one die penalty to Adr. He still receives 4 DP from the armor.

If a character uses a weapon with Dam higher than his Virility, his roll to hit with the weapon suffers a penalty for each die of DP higher than Virility. (Note: I'm removing that whole business about sharpness doing +1 damage, and increasing all damages by one. A big sword works as well as a big mace.)

Example: A character with Vir 2 using a two-handed sword (Dam 4) suffers a 2 die penalty to his roll to hit. He still does Vir + Dam + successes damage with the sword if he hits.

An item can be magic. All bonuses to an item because of magic do not increase the weight of the item. A dagger (with Dam 1) with a +3 to Dam because of magic still weighs only one die. Chain mail (DP 2) with 2 dice protection from damage still weighs one two dice.

Getting items

Any fact stated by the GM in combat is a free fact for the player when looting for items. If it's already established that an opponent has a sword, then the player can automatically find a sword on him. If the GM made the sword burst into flame during the combat, it can still burst into flame.

A player states the difficulty of the item he is looking for when looting a body, and also states how many curse dice it will have. An item is built from loot dice - the difficulty stated above - and costs are:

The player rolls the Loot Rating of the opponent (its level) minus the number of magic items he already has, and the DM rolls the difficulty stated by the player earlier. If the player is unsuccessful, nothing is found (or the basic facts stated during the combat are found, as mentioned above.) If the player is successful, he can allocate as many dice as he had successes. This can be either loot dice or curse dice. You can make your own curse, and leave the loot dice in the hands of the GM.

Example 1: Jim's character kills a Level 10 Ork War-chief. Jim says, "I'm going to loot for a 6 dice item." (Jim has no other magic items.) Jim rolls 10 dice, and the GM rolls 6. Jim gets 3 successes and says, "Ok - I find a dagger (1 die) with a quality of Strike Quickly 1 (2 dice - +1 to initiative)." The DM has 3 dice to allocate and decides that the ring also has the quality of Sense Humans 3 (3 dice - specific magic quality.)

Example 2: Jim's been fighting another Level 10 Ork War-chief, but this one pulled out a wicked serrated bastard sword (Dam 4). Jim says, "I'm looting that sword - I'm trying for 4 dice." Jim rolls 9 dice (10 - his one magic item) and the GM rolls 4 dice. Jim gets 5 successes, but was only trying for a 4 dice item, so that's all he can allocate. He says, "Ok - the sword has Burst Into Flame 2 (4 dice - adds 2 to damage)." He automatically got the sword, and had to spend no dice on that.

Example 3: Jim's fighting yet another Level 10 Ork War-chief. This one was wearing a chain shirt, and it gave him magical protection at 2 dice. Jim says, "I want that shirt - I'm going for 6 dice on it, but with 4 dice of curse." Jim rolls 8 dice (10 - his 2 magic items) and the GM rolls 2 dice (6 - 4 curse dice.) Jim gets 4 successes, and states "I want a quality of Ork Strength (+1 to Vir - 4 dice)." The GM uses the other two loot dice to up the magical protection 1 to 3, and uses the 4 curse dice for a quality of Ork Brutishness (-1 to Soc - 4 dice).

1) Yeah, you're right Clinton, in my hurried read, I missed what you actually said. So, if you want to do a Called Shot you use a Success / Fact and hit what you like. If you don't you default to HD hits. So Zak's desire to have the power to choose his hits is still in place, you just have to pay an extra Success to do it. Since multiple successes are not super common, if you really want to do this you'd better come up with some ingenious bonus carry overs and work on nailing some RP bonuses in order to rack up the extra dice...I like it.

2) With regards to the Roll to remain concious however, I have some suggestions. (Tangental note: I humbly suggest changing the names of the Saves to something less tongue in cheek like Mind Save and Body Save).a) I'd have the roll to keep going once HDs hit 0 use the standard Body Save. This way there's no need to create a new formula to remember (applicable skills always apply anyway).b) I'd only make the Save check for each time you take damage while your HDs are 0 NOT for every action. Otherwise the rule is nothing but delaying the inevitable.

QUESTION: Do saves decline with damage? I'd think not since they can be bought up independently. They merely start at a value equal to the attribute in question, but do not increase and decrease with that attribute. Otherwise the bookkeeping could get a little cumbersome. If Saves ARE effected by damage then they should be recorded as Dis+Save or Whe+Save (where Save is the additional amount the Save's been bought up for).

c) If Saves do decrease with damage then I'd have the Save be Vs whatever the damage of the current blow is. If Saves do not then I'd have the Save be vs the total Ability Hits the character is suffering from.

3) With regards to healing, I like the concept of the healing roll but practically I don't know if you'd want EVERY character to be making a roll EVERY scene. Plus, the number of failed rolls with the rolls that earn extra successes will probabably wash out to something around 1 per scene anyway. Therefor I'd go with the 1 die recovered per scene as just being alot easier. Plus, with the rule that HD have to be healed first you still have the lingering Ability hits without needing the Ability hits heal 1 per level rule. This also motivates the DM to balance the Hits out. Want to slam a character with some nasty Ability Hits? Better be sure to back it up with some HD hits to keep them from being recovered right away. I'd reserve the Healing Roll for extra healing like magic, Troll Regen, Laying on of hands, etc. Also: I've taken to refering to the 20-1 Initiative Countdown as a Combat Flurry. I think the end of one of these flurries would be a good time to have an automatic Heal. The lull in the fighting is a perfect time to catch ones breath and divides the combat into essentially 2 scenes. I'd also use the 20-1 Flurry to time spell durations that are for 1 "combat".

4) The encomberance and Armor question. The one big negative I'm seeing is that you're essentially saying a person has to have maximum strength in order to use Full Plate effectively. I don't find that to be particularly "realistic" or a good game construct. Plus Adroitness penelties are particularly harsh. They nail your to-hit, they nail your defense, and indirectly they nail both the damage you sustain and the damage you dish out. They also nail your initiative which translates to ANOTHER hit to all of the above due to losing actions.(Tangental Note: given the HUGE impact of Adroitness you may wish to consider adding a seperate Reflex Stat to drive the defensive moves.)

Perhaps instead of being a penelty based on strait difference, it should be one based on multiples. Thus At Virility 3, wearing Armor 5 is only -1 instead of -2 and encomberance of 9 would be only -2 instead of -6. I'd also like to see Wealth and Provisions be applied. I agree you don't want to make it complicated, but Carry Capacity is very old school. Armor + Wealth + Provisions + 1 per Item is pretty simple math. I really like the idea of my barbarian being able to haul more loot than your pansy elf. Besides think of all of the really cool spell effects that puny caster can come up with to help him carry stuff. Who here has NOT used a bag of holding, a portable hole, or a Tensors Floating Disk to carry heinous amounts of stuff. Thats classic dungeon crawling. Then you can start throwing in optional rules for those of us who get off on arranging the Diablo inventory screen to maximize carrying. The ubiquitous Large Sacks, and Back Packs. A simple capacity whose effect is to 1/2 the Encomberance of Wealth or Provisions carried in them. Further a roll would be required (Cer vs current capacity) in order to recover stuff quickly from the container in an emergency. For Weapons, I'd go with an Initiative penelty rather than a to-hit penelty. You mention taking a bigger weapon for a lower chance to hit but more damage...but given the carry over effect a lower chance to hit also means less damage, partially cancelling out the damage advantage. With an Initiative penelty you'd have the same chance to hit, just fewer possible attacks. You'd also have fewer chances to parry but that also would seem reasonable if you're wielding a sword thats far too big.

QUESTION: If I have Chain Mail +1 does it have 0 Encomberance because its magic or does it still have an Encomberance of 2 for being chain but the extra protection is free of weight?

5) New Item: Shields. I'd assume that shield use is some kind of skill, but is it a defense skill or is it a damage resistance skill. If a defense skill it would have to be a passive defense skill (because as an Active defense it would be a waste of a slot as you can simply use your regular combat skill for that). I'm thinking that Shields could be rated just like armor and weapons with this rating being the number of passive defenses per Combat Flurry you can make with that shield. This begs the question then of why I'd take a shield instead of a dodge which isn't so limited.a) don't worry about rating shields thats just too "sim" if you have the skill you can just use it...of course you still have to HAVE a shield while a dodge you don't need to have anything so there is still the question.b) don't require a shield to be a seperate skill. Define a shield as simply allowing you to use your combat skill passively "X" number of times per flurry where the X is the shield rating. This works well, except some combat skills aren't really suitable for automatic shield use.c) give shields some additional advantage like being used for BOTH Defense and Damage Resistance at the players option with each use using up one of the "ratings".

6) Camping and Fatigue: Heres an idea that I really think has some potential. There is no more characteristic scene of an old school hack than camping and setting watches. What if you could only participate in a number of encounter scenes equal to your Wherewithal before becomeing Fatigued. Fatigue is simply a -1d6 to all rolls. You need to stop and rest to recover this fatigue...i.e. Camp. Somone in the party makes a Camping roll; Dis + Skill...potentially a standard "Save vs. Camping (perhaps added by various bonus carryovers from other players). The Difficulty is 3 per Dungeon Level the characters are in. Failure indicates the Camp was interrupted with the ever popular "ambush during the second watch". True to the standard rules the DM narrates Facts equal to his successes such as "only the Wizard and Thief are awake" "or the knight has taken his armor off". If the roll succeeds:a) All Fatigue and Caster's Castinging Levels are recovered.b) Extra Successes can carry over into standard camp type activities like setting traps, sharpening weapons (successes carry over to future damage rolls at 1d6 per till gone), repairing armor (same type rule for simplicity), scrounging, making extra healing rolls, etc.c) Extra Successes can be used to narrate scouting reports and "look what we found" type discoveries.

Leave it to Clinton to make a whole lot of sense. Sorry I wasn't reading your posts very well! Thanks fro summing things up.

This should be a chart on the character sheet! I think the character sheet should consist of: Character, Currency Chart (1 success = 1 fact = 1 die, type thing), Adventuring Chart (Simple charts for Skill Use, Difficulties, Item Creation, XP Gain, When to Heal, and Combat). The Character needs to have the derived stat algorithms right there on the sheet (Dodge would say "Adr + Skill - Armor" right on the sheet or something).

I love Character Sheets that keep me from asking questions during play :)

Well, I'm finally back in town from my vacation to SF, and I had brought DK down with me to ponder... Here's some questions that came to me while I was down there....

1) What happens if you roll low enough on stats to get a 0 die bonus? I know we had spoken on damaging stats down to 0, so that a character can't do a type of action without skill in it? Does that mean someone is terminally jacked from the get go?

2) What happens to initiative when someone has a 0 dice bonus for adroitness?

3) The standard "easy" roll is based off of 3 dice, yet the average dice pool of a person will be 2 dice... Obviously skilled folks will have a better time at it, but shouldn't 3 dice be average difficulty(you need some skill to have a chance at it)?

4) In the rare 1 die vs 1 die tie, what happens when that happens to be the xp roll?

5) Do you get extra xp dice if the situation is a "loaded" encounter(ambush, special tactics, etc)?

6) As you go up in level, it seems that it will already be adjusting to your curve (you are rolling more dice for your character's level, so you need more xp dice to get xp), is increasing the amount of xp per level also necessary?

1) What happens if you roll low enough on stats to get a 0 die bonus? I know we had spoken on damaging stats down to 0, so that a character can't do a type of action without skill in it? Does that mean someone is terminally jacked from the get go?

You can't roll a 0 die ability score anymore. I'm not sure you'll roll at all - I'm thinking of excising that rule right out.

2) What happens to initiative when someone has a 0 dice bonus for adroitness?

It's equal to your level.

3) The standard "easy" roll is based off of 3 dice, yet the average dice pool of a person will be 2 dice... Obviously skilled folks will have a better time at it, but shouldn't 3 dice be average difficulty(you need some skill to have a chance at it)?

It's just a terminology thing in this case. I used 3 dice as average difficulty most of the time. I like that it's at least a little hard for most characters, though - I wrote it with the philosophy that if you don't have a skill in something, it's really hard to do - much like the fact that you couldn't do anything at all not stated in your class description in D&D.

4) In the rare 1 die vs 1 die tie, what happens when that happens to be the xp roll?

Damn. I have no idea.

5) Do you get extra xp dice if the situation is a "loaded" encounter(ambush, special tactics, etc)?

Yes. That said, it's up to the GM to decide this when writing the encounter.

6) As you go up in level, it seems that it will already be adjusting to your curve (you are rolling more dice for your character's level, so you need more xp dice to get xp), is increasing the amount of xp per level also necessary?

The number of XP doesn't increase. You might be reading (Level x 20) as the total amount you need each level. You only need 20 per Level. If you're level 3, you'll already have 40 XP, and you need (3 x 20) = 60.

What ever happened to the Hit Dice? Last I heard they were going to be a resource ala 7th Sea's experience dice. Does that still stand? What happens to spent dice? How do you get them back?

How about you get to spend any Hit Dice "unwounded" at the beginning of the round once in that combat round (flurry is the term being used in Jared's hackemup game, IIRC). So, if I start a round with six HD and two wounds, then I get four extra dice to use on whatever that round. If I get two more wounds that round then I will only have two HD for the next round.

Good suggestions all around, but I think we've hashed this out to the point that further discussion about the same topics confuses the issue. I'm seeing a lot of posts that cover stuff already covered, wrapped, and done. That said, discussion about new issues is great.

Mike - read page 2 of this discussion, near the bottom, for information on Hit Dice.

Valamir - You make a good point with the "roll to stay up" each time you take damage, not each action. I like it. As for the idea of re-naming or re-using saving throws for anything else - they're set as is.

Also - thank you again for your ideas on encumberance. I'm just going to have to go with my gut here and say: I've never enjoyed the idea of encumberance, and never met anyone who has. In addition, the idea of adding up Weapons + Armor + Provisions + Wealth breaks the simplicity of the rules. I want to go more with "what was fun about old school" rather than just "old school."

However - it's a good idea, just not one I intend to use. I'd hang on to it. I am - if I haven't mentioned this before - releasing the rules for Donjon under the OGL. I'm a really big fan of open rule-systems. You will be able to write your own version of Donjon, or a supplement for it for free with no authorization from me. When I do this, I'll make an announcement. I think your idea is an excellent rule for an Advanced Donjon or something like that. (I'm going to make more supplements under the OGL - the first being a treatise on playing goblins of all types. The donjon will be human settlements.)

I think we're starting to argue simulationism here with the Armor penalties. I know I am - the first thing I thought was "of course you can't swim/run/dodge as well in full plate armor, unless you're super-crazy-strong." Here's how this is going to work - I've changed the stats just a little - player characters now start off with 1-6 instead of 0-5. 0 is useless, and I want a 6 point range for ability scores. Because of this, a Vir 5 or 6 character can use Full Plate with no penalties whatsoever, which I think is a pretty good balance.

Shield - hmm. Hadn't even thought about them. (Kind of like missile weapons in the playtest rules.) Here's my initial thought, and it's really simple. Shields give +1 die to all defense, whether it be active or passive. They help with dodging, but also with parrying. This seems realistic in a way, fair, and not overpowering. They have two mundane qualities (Passive Defense 1 and Active Defense 1), so their cost is 2 dice.

Lastly, the idea of camping is great. I'm going to use it, although modified some. Thoughts as of now:

- You don't ever have to camp. You can, though, after any encounter. - The GM makes a "Camp Difficulty" built into each step of the adventure. (I like your standard 3 x donjon step. Very cool.) The player with the highest Discernment (used for planning a good camp spot, setting up alarms, whatever) + skill rolls versus the difficulty. This difficulty goes up by 1 each time you camp in a step, though. - Everyone heals one die at the beginning of the camp, of course, just like any scene. If the player is successful, all Magic ratings go back up, and extra successes are used as you mentioned in your post.

- The GM makes a "Camp Difficulty" built into each step of the adventure. (I like your standard 3 x donjon step. Very cool.) The player with the highest Discernment (used for planning a good camp spot, setting up alarms, whatever) + skill rolls versus the difficulty. This difficulty goes up by 1 each time you camp in a step, though.

Why not combine it?

Difficulty is 3 x donjon step. Player with highest Discernment + skill rolls. Difficulty goes up by 1 after each roll. Keep rolling until you fail, with each successful roll healing the party (except for the guy on look-out) 1 point.

All it says on page two about Hit Dice is that you can "strain" yourself and get an extra die. I'm assuming that means that Hit Dice used in this manner are "wounded" then? Also, it proposes the idea of using more than one at once, but leaves it up in the air. What's the decision on that? It just seems that one die for wounding yourself is very little bonus. Not that it's broken, though; just seems kinda weak.

Armor encumberance is Gamist as real armor is made so as to cause the least amount of problems possible. A Sim system would have less. What you have is balanced and very gamist, so all goals are met there. I like encumberance, and you've met me. But I can understand not including it as well. Either way works as far as I'm concerned. I will have players make whe rolls occasionally when lifting more than their vir to avoid groin pulls, etc. :-)

Have you come up with the new rules for chargen using the 1 to 6 stat thing?

As for camping, you forgot the most important part. Save versus provisions or lose a die. No provisions, no rest. This will of course lead to rules about turning slain monsters into provisions, and rolls for taking damage on the way home due to starvation.

As far as the encumberance rules etc, I'd avoid making the penalties as part of the rules explicitly. Simply having the GM knock up the difficulty seems to work well enough. Frex, you want to swim in plate? ok 9 dice difficulty(or more). Donjon's simplicity is where it's at.

Also, maybe ability damage should be considered a special attack or skill on its own? That would encourage players who really want it to get the skill(I can't see someone getting more than one or two skills in it anyway). This way, you can have the gladiator/hunter skill, Harry and Wear Out, the ninja Pressure Point skill, thief skill Taunt and Enrage(vs.Discernment), etc.

The only thing I can see for being able to damage any of the ability scores would be"Ancient Pressure Point Jack Move" or something like that for a main skill that would let you target any of the abilities, and would only count as damage dice towards that.

I was also thinking of using Hit Dice to power spells, after my unforunate string in casting. I like your idea of drawing power for spells to get spell dice to pull it off. I'm not sure if you want to keep the diminishing magic skill to 0 as the option for limiting magic. I would say that to continue rolling for more spell dice, perhaps taking another initiative turn("I gotta wait until 5! Crap!") would be a good option, with players having to roll to resist losing concentration when struck.

I ran a friend through a scenario and I noticed how much of a difference specializing a monster makes. Fighting someone the same level as you is a challenge(which I like), but it seems damn well impossible to beat things that would be 3 or more levels higher than you. We might have to test this in gameplay.

Yeah, I figured all those would be optional rules anyway. Be happy to throw together something for you using the OGL for you to distribute as you like.

Another idea I had was Looting bodies for Provisions instead of wealth. You might end up eating filet o'swamp rat or something, but it seemed to make sense to me.

One thing I think I'm going to try is making Initiative be Level + Discernment. The reason is to lesson the impact of Adroitness a little (which is by far and away the most important stat) and increase the value of Dis a bit. The "Justification" is that Discernment is you ability to spot trouble, recognize what your opponents are trying to do, evaluate opportunities, and make good decisions. More of a thinking thing than a reflex thing.

Another thing I ran into when practicing creating a couple characters is that Initiative skills like "Crazy Ninja Speed" are very very powerful (perhaps too powerful).

So I got to thinking. All rolls are Ability + Skill. Why should Initiative be + two skills. Essentially for initiative Character Level is the substitute for Skill Level, so there should be no need to add an Initiative Skill to it. Rather, at the beginning of a flurry you should roll Your Ninja Speed roll against your current Initiative (just like Looting bodies) and carry over any Successes as a bonus to Initiative.