Totally agree with The Guard's assessment. Snyder included WAY MORE than most directors would have, and most of the cuts he made were necessary. For example, the Bernies and the Pirate comic book stuff works in the comic, but it was unnecessary to include in the movie. And changing the squid monster to making people think it was Dr. Manhattan blowing up New York was a stroke of genius.

Thing with Watchmen is I found the people who really loved the film tended to be people who had read the graphic novel, and as such were filling in the blanks the film left. On it's own merits though it suffers from many of the same issues other Snyder films suffer from. The opening credit sequences was great though.

I hated the graphic novel and didn't finish it but really enjoyed the movie.
The characters worked so much better for me in the film than in the graphic novel.
That being said none of my friends who watched it with me except my son have read the novel and it made perfect sense to them. I think you underestimate even the average movie goer's 2 volt brain personally. ( although I'll admit my friends get SF concepts or they wouldn't be my friends)

The Ultimate cut of Watchmen is almost unwatchable, talk about over indulgent and heavy handed. The story was written to be read not watched, jmc is right when he says that reading the GN beforehand certainly helps people miss out the inherant problems in script and direction, it had took me a rewatch to truly realised how flawed that film truly is.

Wow! we just don't agree on anything today. I found it very compelling and one of my favorite CBM. personally I'd like to never hear about the GN again but love the film.

I like Watchmen a lot. But there is definitely some things completely wrong with it. Like how The Comedian, Night Owl, Silk Spectre and Rorschach fight like borderline superhuman comparable with Cap in TWS. Yea their fight scenes looked cool and bad ass... but that's completely missing the point. They are not supposed to be cool and bad ass.

But the Dr M origin sequence makes up for it.

I do think Snyder has difficulty communicating his themes though. Sucker Punch is the biggest example of that. All his interviews leading up to it were about how it's a film about strong women overcoming oppressive men etc. That was all lip service. The film itself has them running around like anime sex dolls taking orders from a man.

__________________

People think dreams aren't real just because they aren't made of matter, of particles. Dreams are real. But they are made of viewpoints, of images, of memories and puns and lost hopes

Well, the characters in Watchmen are supposedly to be highly effective hand-to-hand combatants. Even when he's old and fat in the comics, Dreiberg still kicks a lot of ass. I supposed Snyder kind of heightened their abilities to an extent but I wouldn't put it on the level of Captain America.

__________________"Wonderful things can happen when you sow seeds of distrust in a garden of a**holes." - Raylan Givens

Yep. The only problem I have with it is that stupid line Laurie says at the end... something like, "The people know John is protecting them."

UMMM HELLO THEY ALL THINK HE JUST NUKED NEW YORK.

Still, regardless of that, it's still a great ending and an amazing film.

I just went and checked out that scene. Laurie says "Are we going to be alright", and then Dan (Nite owl) says "As long as people think John's watching us we'll be ok."

What he means was that as long as people think that Dr.Manhattan was keeping an eye on the them and making sure they would not go to war again, people will live in that fear and not fight amongst each other in order to not incur Manhattan's wrath again. People thought he nuked the cities since he was unhappy about the cold war.

On another note, that scene at the end where they show NYC being rebuilt, it would be awesome to see a scene like that in Metropolis in BVS.

I haven't seen it for a while but iirc they were punching guys like 10 foot in that fight in the alley and snapping their bones like twigs.

Moore never intended it to be a heightened reality. The whole point of the book was "what if these people really did exist in our world".

It's like sometimes Snyder just can't help himself. He does things that he thinks looks cool instead of things that work.

I'm excited to see what he'll do with Batman though. He might actually get a competently choreographed and shot action scene for the character.

It's defo interesting to see how Snyder differentiates the fighting style/power levels between Bats and Supes. Bring back slo-mo? I'm not sure it'd work well for Bats, too stylized. Maybe Supes. But I'm ready to be excited by Snyder's eye for action.

Does he really direct everything? Screen Rant wrote a while back that JL will complete Snyder's Superman trilogy. They didn't elaborate but it sounds like he might not do JL2? I'm sure they will make JL2 and more beyond that. Its not a given Snyder will direct those films.

I disagree with Rant referring to JL as part of the Superman trilogy and even BvS is really a team film. Hope they are wrong on that. A trilogy implies solo films and Superman by the time JL comes out will have had just 1 such IMO.

I haven't seen it for a while but iirc they were punching guys like 10 foot in that fight in the alley and snapping their bones like twigs.

Moore never intended it to be a heightened reality. The whole point of the book was "what if these people really did exist in our world".

It's like sometimes Snyder just can't help himself. He does things that he thinks looks cool instead of things that work.

I think people just miss the point of this scene.

The point is the brutality, and the fact that they're basically enjoying themselves. It's a sick moment.

I don't recall anyone being punched ten feet.

And bones CAN be snapped like twigs.

The only thing really "heightened" in terms of combat was Veidt, and even then, a lot of that was camera angles. We were meant to see what Rorschach and Nite Owl were seeing Veidt as; borderline superhuman.

__________________
Writer and Lyricist of GOTHAM'S KNIGHT: THE BATMAN MUSICAL

And if I'm right
The future's looking bright
A symbol in the skies at night

Wow! we just don't agree on anything today. I found it very compelling and one of my favorite CBM. personally I'd like to never hear about the GN again but love the film.

Sorry I guess that's where we differ, GN or not I find it to be incredibly flawed in regards to certain aspects of filmmaking. I guess thats where my problem with Snyder lies, he'll gladly go for whats "cool" rather than remember he's a filmmaker first and foremost, and cinema has it's own language and rules that should be adhered to.

Does he really direct everything? Screen Rant wrote a while back that JL will complete Snyder's Superman trilogy. They didn't elaborate but it sounds like he might not do JL2? I'm sure they will make JL2 and more beyond that. Its not a given Snyder will direct those films.

I disagree with Rant referring to JL as part of the Superman trilogy and even BvS is really a team film. Hope they are wrong on that. A trilogy implies solo films and Superman by the time JL comes out will have had just 1 such IMO.

No. One. Cares.

No one REALLY CARES, yes, even the fanboys/fangirls like you if this is or is not a true sequel. No one cares if there is a "true" trilogy, a "pseudo" trilogy, and imagined quadralogy or what have you... As a a Superman fan I am getting in a short period of time films that cover both Superman's origin, a team up with Batman and Superman, and Superman in the Justice League along side his fellow DCU heroes. As Charlie Sheen would say... "WINNING". Cuz that is how I feel as a fan of Supes. I really could give an airborne copulation if it's a true sequel or what the cuss... What does it even matter? Really?

__________________My father. 1946-2014

He truly proved that every person has the potential to be a force for good in this life. So anyone that reads this, do me a favor... Call your parents.

No one REALLY CARES, yes, even the fanboys/fangirls like you if this is or is not a true sequel. No one cares if there is a "true" trilogy, a "pseudo" trilogy, and imagined quadralogy or what have you... As a a Superman fan I am getting in a short period of time films that cover both Superman's origin, a team up with Batman and Superman, and Superman in the Justice League along side his fellow DCU heroes. As Charlie Sheen would say... "WINNING". Cuz that is how I feel as a fan of Supes. I really could give an airborne copulation if it's a true sequel or what the cuss... What does it even matter? Really?

This pedantic criticism over whether or not BvS is a "true sequel" given the rumoured existence of "Man of Steel 2 (2018)" which is clearly a placeholder of a name is the definitive example of whining syndrome.

No matter what happens, people will complain, because their emotional inclination is to ***** about WB/DC and talk about how it's not as good as Marvel.

Dawn of Justice is effectively a sequel to Man of Steel really. It's a continuation of his story. It will show the worlds reaction to his arrival and the aftermath of the Metropolis battle (we should have got some of that in the first movie but hey ho).

But if they are throwing more and more JL members in there i hope it's organic and they are all juggled well. Superman should still be the star.

This could be a great, great movie. It could also be an absolutely stinker with too many characters like X3 or Wolverine Origins.

__________________

People think dreams aren't real just because they aren't made of matter, of particles. Dreams are real. But they are made of viewpoints, of images, of memories and puns and lost hopes

MoS 2 is all but confirmed now, and I'm glad. MoS deserves a proper sequel, and BvSoJ is getting more and more crammed into it (Criminy, even the name is packed with crap).

I'm glad that's happening too, but I felt a lot better when I heard a true MoS 2 is happening as well.

After seeing 300, Watchmen, and then Sucker Punch (which I really enjoyed) I think I'm starting to get Snyder. He has an almost obsessive concern for some things (visual spectacle, visceral violence) but a complete disregard for other important things (natural consequence, making any sense). There's some real genius in there but it always seems to end up kinda garbled, much like Tarantino. I LOVED MoS but you have to acknowledge its undeniable warts.

MoS 2 is all but confirmed now, and I'm glad. MoS deserves a proper sequel, and BvSoJ is getting more and more crammed into it (Criminy, even the name is packed with crap).

I'm glad that's happening too, but I felt a lot better when I heard a true MoS 2 is happening as well.

After seeing 300, Watchmen, and then Sucker Punch (which I really enjoyed) I think I'm starting to get Snyder. He has an almost obsessive concern for some things (visual spectacle, visceral violence) but a complete disregard for other important things (natural consequence, making any sense). There's some real genius in there but it always seems to end up kinda garbled, much like Tarantino. I LOVED MoS but you have to acknowledge its undeniable warts.

Welcome to the forum Beige Lantern.

I like Snyder too. I think another theme of his are emotionally grey endings. There are no super-hollywood happy endings in his movies. Victory comes at a cost for Snyder.

MoS 2 is all but confirmed now, and I'm glad. MoS deserves a proper sequel, and BvSoJ is getting more and more crammed into it (Criminy, even the name is packed with crap).

I'm glad that's happening too, but I felt a lot better when I heard a true MoS 2 is happening as well.

After seeing 300, Watchmen, and then Sucker Punch (which I really enjoyed) I think I'm starting to get Snyder. He has an almost obsessive concern for some things (visual spectacle, visceral violence) but a complete disregard for other important things (natural consequence, making any sense). There's some real genius in there but it always seems to end up kinda garbled, much like Tarantino. I LOVED MoS but you have to acknowledge its undeniable warts.

I think there is, too. Each film he makes has a different feel and style to it.
DoD felt different from 300 which felt different from Watchmen and MOS..etc.

I also think he doesn't get enough credit for his ability to create an impact on viewers (though that is also one of the reasons he's so divisive)

I will say this, having Zack do the Justice League means it's gonna take risks that the first Avengers movie probably didn't. Whether the risks pay off or not will depend on my opinion of it as it's released