But we don't know which would win out, a small computer with a few gel-packs and a few isolinear chips, or a large one with a gadawful number of isolinear chips. Perhaps the Intrepid is just barely on par with Galaxy after the unfair advantage of gel-packs is factored in?

And to be sure, we don't even known that the gel-packs would be better than the isolinear chips. We just know that the Voyager has the gel-packs, and that she is a new ship. Perhaps the packs are cheaper and thus preferred, even though inferior otherwise? The technobabble at Memory Alpha isn't canonically supported...

Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

To my recollection, the Intrepid class is a simple downsized Galaxy class.
Identical offensive/defensive systems with a slight advantage of size going to the Galaxy class because it can house much more torpedoes in comparison to an Intrepid and can obviously hold more crew-members.

I wouldn't be surprised if both end up as matched up in the end in terms of fire-power.

In Intrepid's defense (by having issues with a very old Klingon K-Tinga) I have to remind people that a galaxy class Enterprise-D (flagship no less) had serious issues battling a measly BOP (Generations anyone?) and eventually wound up destroyed.

Both instances of battling Klingons were potential messed up writing aspects (which we know are the culprit) ... but at the same time, Klingons aren't idiotic, and if anything, there is a possibility they would upgrade their old K-Tinga ship as time went on to keep up ... plus who knows what types of techs they discovered along their own journey which helped them upgrade their weapons (And by their nature, they would focus more on weapons compared to defensive systems).

Actually in Voyager's early episodes there was a big deal over reconfiguring Voyager to operate with Isolinear chips because they could be easily replaced and installed rather than the hard to come by gelpacks.

Are we to assume that all ships have identical systems unless otherwise told? Did the tiny Equinox have identical systems? She did have phaser strips and torpedo tubes, after all. What about the runabouts? Do they have Galaxy systems? They, too, have phaser strips and torpedo tubes.

Klingons aren't idiotic, and if anything, there is a possibility they would upgrade their old K-Tinga ship as time went on to keep up

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Except that this wasn't possible in this particular case: the ship our VOY heroes met in "Prophecy" had been stranded in deep space for the better part of a century, much like the sleeper ship from TNG "The Emissary" that was easily dealt with by the E-D. Underway improvements would of course be possible, but I do wonder if the Klingons would have been capable of that sort of thing. That they survived the 80-year trip at all might be indicative of minimal contact with locals...

To my recollection, the Intrepid class is a simple downsized Galaxy class.
Identical offensive/defensive systems with a slight advantage of size going to the Galaxy class because it can house much more torpedoes in comparison to an Intrepid and can obviously hold more crew-members.

I wouldn't be surprised if both end up as matched up in the end in terms of fire-power.

In Intrepid's defense (by having issues with a very old Klingon K-Tinga) I have to remind people that a galaxy class Enterprise-D (flagship no less) had serious issues battling a measly BOP (Generations anyone?) and eventually wound up destroyed.

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Why do people keep forgetting to mention that the Enterprise's shields were essentially down for that battle? It's not like the Klingons overpowered her shields or knew where to shoot, they had an unwitting inside man! In fact, that was the only factor that really levelled the playing field; earlier in the movie, the sisters scoffed at the idea of taking on the Enterprise-D, citing that they were otherwise no match for a Galaxy-class starship.

Compare that to Voyager, whose shields were working during their encounter. Everytime the shields go down, for the E-D or Voyager or Defiant, that meant the ship was in serious, serious trouble.

Let's not pick and choose our facts, eh?

And again, this thread is about the Intrepid Vs. the Galaxy, not Voyager Vs. the Enterprise.

Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

Oh, I'm not forgetting the shields were down.
Even with the shields down however, the Enterprise-D should have destroyed a measly BOP, suffering little damage in the process.
Sloppy writing was what allowed the BOP to inflict as much damage as it did.

What did we see in Generations with Riker in command?
One measly phaser shot which did some damage to the BOP shields.
Why not fire 10 torpedoes in a Sierra pattern along with a full-out phaser barrage instead and turn the BOP into minced meat?

Did the BOP's shields suddenly increase by a factor of 100 allowing their to be invulnerable completely while also dumbing down Riker and everyone else on the Enterprise-D?
Apparently so.

Are we to assume that all ships have identical systems unless otherwise told? Did the tiny Equinox have identical systems? She did have phaser strips and torpedo tubes, after all. What about the runabouts? Do they have Galaxy systems? They, too, have phaser strips and torpedo tubes.

Klingons aren't idiotic, and if anything, there is a possibility they would upgrade their old K-Tinga ship as time went on to keep up

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Except that this wasn't possible in this particular case: the ship our VOY heroes met in "Prophecy" had been stranded in deep space for the better part of a century, much like the sleeper ship from TNG "The Emissary" that was easily dealt with by the E-D. Underway improvements would of course be possible, but I do wonder if the Klingons would have been capable of that sort of thing. That they survived the 80-year trip at all might be indicative of minimal contact with locals...

Timo Saloniemi

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Actually, Star Trek:The magazine had an article of the gelpacks, and they specifically stated neural fibers (the mag is also officially authorized.) In addition, it's reasonable to assume they are what they are as the got "sick" in the episode. Also, they are called "Bio-Neural Gelpacks", and this also supports the notion that they used artificual neural fibers, allowing the computers to process info at best guess rather then process of elimination.

As i said before, the design lineage of the Intrepid class was also in Star Trek the magazine, and they specifically stated that the Intrepid class was designed as a direct result of the Galaxy class and are closely related. In yet another Star Trek Mag article, the ships is said to have high-powered phaser banks. Putting those two together it''s also reasonable to assume Voyager is equipped with at least some type of phaser with similar output to a Galaxy. Couple that with the quote from Lt. Paris while in Kim's quarters that the ship was built for combat, and considering it's an explorer, it's again reasonable to assume higher phaser output. If not type 10's, then something else.

Also, I think it's reasonable to assume Admiral Ross' ship was the USS Bellepheron. If he had a ship he could fight with, why would he use a different ship to be ferried in? He also used the briefing room as if it was his own, which is generally against protocol if it isn't his ship. And if it isn't, why would he shlep to the briefing room when he could hold a meeting in his own quarters.

The Equinox itself was the Defiant pathfinder originally. Considering the type of ship that is, and the year in which it was launched, it's also reasonable to assume that the tech on the Equinox class is similar, sans weapons and a high warp speed, to the Galaxy. Each consequent ship is a descendent of the advanced ships before it.

As to the Sovereign, I can't remember where I read that it had bionueral gel packs (I think again it was ST:The mag), BUT it was a TOP of the line battleship, with all the latest in gadgets and gizmo's. There is absolutley no reason to assume that it's tech did not include bionueral gelpacks. In fact, it would be ridiculous to think it didn't...A brand new ship with old technology and computing power??? I think not.

Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

While we never saw direct on-screen evidence ... indeed, the designers of Voyager stated that it's essentially a downsized Galaxy class with same shields and weapons in terms of power outputs.
The only major difference between the two would be the obvious: size (along with amount of crews and torpeodes/materials both can carry in stock ... not to mention a temporary superiority in computers going to the Intrepid because it came designed with bio-neural circuitry ... and it's definitely possible the Galaxies received them in one of their re-fits later on).

It makes sense that SF would be able to make downsized versions of larger ships with same capabilities (whereas smaller ships would be limited in terms of how much torpedoes/materials they can have in stock).
They are easier/faster to produce, and they'd likely have very limited supply of civilians/families on board (if any at all) when it comes to deep-space exploratory missions.

If SF for example wants to reduce the amount of spent resources when it comes to making new ships ... instead of making 2 Galaxy class ships ... why not make 1 Galaxy class and 2 Intrepid class ships?
You get 3 ships instead of two, and granted you are limited in the amount of civilians/families you can stuff on the smaller ships ... still, it's a better arrangement because you'd have new ships out in the field much faster, while getting the same job done.

Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

Galaxy Class is a Destroyer/Heavy Cruiser in my opinion, Voyager is more of a scout ship, the federation may call the Galaxy class an explorer, but you cannot deny the thing had a fierce weapons load. I say that Intrepid lasts a few minutes, it's a tough class but before long it just gets bombed out.

What did we see in Generations with Riker in command?
One measly phaser shot which did some damage to the BOP shields.
Why not fire 10 torpedoes in a Sierra pattern along with a full-out phaser barrage instead and turn the BOP into minced meat?

Did the BOP's shields suddenly increase by a factor of 100 allowing their to be invulnerable completely while also dumbing down Riker and everyone else on the Enterprise-D?
Apparently so.

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That entire battle is just agonizing. Uhg. What a way for the D to go... Reminds me of the awful TNG ep "Rascals" in which the Ferengi take the D with 2 BoPs and almost no fight.

These ship vs. ship arguments are pointless considering the ships are always portrayed as as powerful as the writers desire. And Voyager is the land of endless deus ex machina plots (worse than TNG in that regard I think).

Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

That's precisely the case. And this isn't a pointless argument, star trek is one of the sci fi shows that actually give figures for things like the tactical systems. sometimes they are a little off and contradictory, but in general you're able to piece together what does what.

One thing i will NEVER understand though is starfleets decision to suspend production of Galaxy class ships.

It seems utterly wasteful to devote so much time and energy and expense into a ship that's meant for expansion and refitting to keep up with tech advancements, and has a hull life expectency of 100 years with regular refits.

Not to mention, on standard Galaxy class ships, a quarter of the internal space is left empty for expansion. The Galaxy class is a very flexible design and would more than be able to keep up. As for the weaponry, you can install a couple quantum/photorp launcher in place of the old ones, and even extra launchers say on deck 11 or 12, and on the aft neck.

The phasers could be uprated to be more on par with a Sovereign as well. You just uprate the warp core and modulate the EPS taps better so the phasers and subsytems can handle it. With slipstream drive using the deflector dish, and advancements in computing technology, you could theoretically use the saucer deflector to allow the saucer to achieve warp speeds as well.

If the Intrepid is a smaller Galaxy, and the Defiant and Prometheus the primary combat ships, and the Galaxy who does everything, what the hell is the purpose of the Sovereign?? It seems wasteful to get this spankin' new ship that probably costs more to build because it's newer with newer technology than the Galaxy class, or at the least uses up resources, when you have ships that already fit the roles needed and are more flexible in their design.

That's precisely the case. And this isn't a pointless argument, star trek is one of the sci fi shows that actually give figures for things like the tactical systems. sometimes they are a little off and contradictory, but in general you're able to piece together what does what.

One thing i will NEVER understand though is starfleets decision to suspend production of Galaxy class ships.

It seems utterly wasteful to devote so much time and energy and expense into a ship that's meant for expansion and refitting to keep up with tech advancements, and has a hull life expectency of 100 years with regular refits.

Not to mention, on standard Galaxy class ships, a quarter of the internal space is left empty for expansion. The Galaxy class is a very flexible design and would more than be able to keep up. As for the weaponry, you can install a couple quantum/photorp launcher in place of the old ones, and even extra launchers say on deck 11 or 12, and on the aft neck.

The phasers could be uprated to be more on par with a Sovereign as well. You just uprate the warp core and modulate the EPS taps better so the phasers and subsytems can handle it. With slipstream drive using the deflector dish, and advancements in computing technology, you could theoretically use the saucer deflector to allow the saucer to achieve warp speeds as well.

If the Intrepid is a smaller Galaxy, and the Defiant and Prometheus the primary combat ships, and the Galaxy who does everything, what the hell is the purpose of the Sovereign?? It seems wasteful to get this spankin' new ship that probably costs more to build because it's newer with newer technology than the Galaxy class, or at the least uses up resources, when you have ships that already fit the roles needed and are more flexible in their design.

So stupid.

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Given that about all we've ever really seen the Sovereign class do is battle, I personally believe that the whole point of the design was to create a larger class of warship to complement the Defiant's more minuscule profile... but that's just a wild guess... Honestly, I'm a puzzled as you by it.

Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

I really liked the galaxy class ship, I never really understood the defiant, since I personally belive A galaxy Class would defeat a Defiant Class in battle, I think soverign class was just to have a nice new ship for FC

Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

With Trek, size of a star-ship is not a decisive factor.
Most of the things that matter in size when SF ships are concerned are the amount of materials, torpedoes and crews a ship can carry.

I mean sure, you will also have classes of ships on which size will be a decisive factor when it comes to how much raw power they will be able to churn out, but at the same time ... technology advances, and the reason why I can see SF building downsized versions of larger vessels that have same power output for example would be to bring up their fleet back on par as fast as possible, and be more prepared if combat situations arise.

Deus Ex machina aside, the Intrepid class is a sensible design.
Voyager was never stated to be a scout ship of any kind.
In fact, Neelix mentioned in one of the episodes when acting as an ambassador that one of the ship's functions is deep-space exploration.

Also, I fail to see why would it be impossible for the Intrepid to be on par with a Galaxy class when the Defiant has an impressive fire-power output at it's disposal while being far smaller.

I don't think SF would completely stop production of Galaxy class ships ... but I also don't think they would be in a hurry to construct as many as possible.
The Sovereign (despite it's combat capabilities) is still a large enough vessel that can easily fit into the roles of a Galaxy class ship as well, while being easier/faster to construct.
SF likely wanted a far more efficient all-round design that would be more combat capable after all.

Besides, I think the Dominion War prompted SF that they needed small, but much more powerful ships at their disposal that would be able to fit exploratory roles and still pack a punch.
Obviously the Defiant class ships can be used for border patrols much more effectively instead of sending an Intrepid or a Galaxy that could be much more useful in exploratory department.

Prometheus ... primarily combat oriented design for deep space tactical missions (as stated in the episode) obviously with same offensive/defensive capabilities of a Sovereign class ... yet being MUCH smaller (even smaller than the Intrepid if I'm not mistaken).

Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

The Prometheus class has 15 decks like the Intrepid class, it's merely longer with a smaller crew compliment to support it's extra combat capabilities.

Deks: There is a reason why the Intrepid class is as powerful, which i mentioned before. It's pretty well known that the height of a warpcore generally creates more efficient power output. The Defiant class is able to achieve it's power by running the matter and antimatter up and down in loops to simulate a much higher warp core before reaching reaction. The Intrepid does it by utilizing the swirl design, lining the warp core with a dilithium lattice creating a 6 deck high warp reaction chamber yielding far more power than would otherwise be creating with a fixed focus reaction chamber.

Another thing as well, the only actual evidence I have seen that clearly says what type of ship it is was in the writers bible. There, it said the Intrepid class was a medium cruiser deep space exploration vessel. This makes sense when you compare it to the refit Constitution. The vessels are similar in size with the Intrepid actually having more internal volume. The neck in the Constitution was pretty much useless so if you take that out it eliminates something like 4 or 6 decks, making it a total of around 15 decks like the Intrepid class.

The reason why it has more internal volume versus the Constitution class is because it's primary and secondary hull are larger. The Primary hull on the Constituion refit was a concave design, which limits the amount of interior room, and wasn't as long as the Intrepid class. Wider, sure, but not as generally long or as big. The Intrepid class' primary hull was convex, yielding more interior room in a longer and generally larger package.

That said, the Constition was a heavy cruiser/battleship, so taking the size comparison in to account, it makes 100% sense that the Intrepid class is a medium cruiser/deep space exploration vessel, with the combat capabilities of a Galaxy class starship, and with some refitting even a Sovereign class if you take into acount the Prometheus class which has the same deck height (though this would be pointless with the advent of the Prometheus class.)

I agree with you Deks that they wouldn't entirely suspend the Galaxy class. I just think that because of it's original design purpose it's a WAY more flexible design than a Sovereign. And I still think the Sovereign is pointless when you have the Galaxy class, Intrepid class, Defiant class, Akira class, and Prometheus class as the premeir classes of Starfleet (those classes of ship are pretty much support all the major roles the Federation needs them to fill.) Making the Sovereign class seems superfluous and wasteful, and probably more expensive in the long run, and definately contridictory to Starfleets peaceful nature(the thing is a DEFINATE Heavy cruiser/battleship, with scientific applications on the side.) I know the Defiant is also a war ship and the Prometheus is too, but they're way less imposing and thus more compliant to Starfleet's peaceful nature. the Sovereign class just looks MEAN. But that part of my argument is just opinion, I still stand by the superfluous argument to the Sovereign class.

Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

What did we see in Generations with Riker in command?
One measly phaser shot which did some damage to the BOP shields.
Why not fire 10 torpedoes in a Sierra pattern along with a full-out phaser barrage instead and turn the BOP into minced meat?

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Umm, the sound effects of that fight suggest that Riker was firing more or less constantly.

Did the BOP's shields suddenly increase by a factor of 100 allowing their to be invulnerable completely while also dumbing down Riker and everyone else on the Enterprise-D? Apparently so.

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I wouldn't wonder a bit. After all, the fact that "Our shields are holding!!" came as a joyous surprise to the two mistresses of the ship, after they had been convinced the attack would be suicide. It wasn't, thanks to Soran supplying an offensive ace. It would be eminently logical for him to supply a defensive one as well, to upgrade the shields.

Actually, Star Trek:The magazine had an article of the gelpacks, and they specifically stated neural fibers (the mag is also officially authorized.)

As i said before, the design lineage of the Intrepid class was also in Star Trek the magazine

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I'm sorry but I don't put much credence on this source when it comes to describing the onscreen universe.

In yet another Star Trek Mag article, the ships is said to have high-powered phaser banks. Putting those two together it''s also reasonable to assume Voyager is equipped with at least some type of phaser with similar output to a Galaxy.

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But that makes so little sense. How could a small ship mount as big a gun as a large ship?

Also, I think it's reasonable to assume Admiral Ross' ship was the USS Bellepheron. If he had a ship he could fight with, why would he use a different ship to be ferried in?

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Typically, a courier ship has different attributes than a combatant. We know the Intrepid class is ridiculously fast, so that makes her a good courier. We don't know that she would be particularly well armed or shielded, though, and we have never seen her like in Alpha Quadrant combat so we might well assume the exact opposite.

And why would an Admiral even have a personal ship? He'd be using whatever ship was available in the combat formation he commanded - and typically, he wouldn't choose the most powerful combatant, but rather a ship that has good command facilities and good protection. Today's Admirals may command from carriers as well as from large air defense destroyers, but they also commandfrom unarmed former amphibious assault ships.

Each consequent ship is a descendent of the advanced ships before it.

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Not in the real world. Instead, every ship design is a unique compromise optimized for the fighting needs of the day, often discarding some advantages that the previous ships had so that she could have different, more current advantages aboard instead. In many key ways, today's surface warships have armament and armor that is massively weaker than their WWII or even WWI counterparts: sometimes they compensate by introducing powerful weapons or protection systems from wholly different categories, but sometimes they are deliberately built weak because that's how they stand a better chance of winning modern wars.

One thing i will NEVER understand though is starfleets decision to suspend production of Galaxy class ships.

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What suspension? If it's the thing alluded to in the TNG Tech Manual, it sure didn't last long, as DS9 already shows multiple new Galaxies left and right.

Also, I fail to see why would it be impossible for the Intrepid to be on par with a Galaxy class when the Defiant has an impressive fire-power output at it's disposal while being far smaller.

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So the Defiant is supposed to be the match of the Galaxy now? Hardly. We have no indication that these smaller ships can do what the larger ones can. The Defiant at best confronted a single Cardassian Keldon, while the Enterprise-D was supposed to tackle 15 Galors and carry the day. The Intrepid would logically fall somewhere in the middle.

Obviously the Defiant class ships can be used for border patrols much more effectively instead of sending an Intrepid or a Galaxy that could be much more useful in exploratory department.

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Hmm... Border patrol in a ship that induces cabin fever? I'd much rather send an Intrepid, for greater endurance and greater flexibility and independence. The Defiant in DS9 excelled in short solo sorties.

The Prometheus class has 15 decks like the Intrepid class, it's merely longer with a smaller crew compliment to support it's extra combat capabilities.

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How would a small crew "support" any extra capabilities?

Also, we know nothing about the size of that ship's crew. The only example we ever saw up close was hijacked during a test cruise, so the unknown number of Starfleet corpses aboard was probably way different from the regular complement.

As for why Starfleet would have both Galaxy and Sovereign, they also have Akira and Galaxy at the same time. Akira is about the size of the Sovereign. Probably Starfleet simply doesn't believe in the "single type for simplicity" credo, aka the "all eggs in the same basket" doctrine.

Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

The sound effects were mostly of the Enterprise-D being pummeled and taking damage, not of it firing back a lot.

And I fairly doubt that Soran was able to upgrade the BoP extensively.
Granted, he would be able to construct shielding for the trilithium torpedo so it doesn't burn up as it approaches the star ... then again, even with those enhancements to the BoP (provided they were done to begin with), the ship shouldn't have held out as long as it did in battle.

The crew also acted in a very idiotic fashion. Geordi was held captive by the klingon sisters for some time and the crew knew of their deceitful tactics.
Why didn't they bother to check the visor if it's been tampered with?
Also, rotating shield modulations very fast even with Geordi looking at them would likely not allow every shot to go through the shields.

Again, as for the Galaxy class production being suspended ... I don't think it would happen.
Sure that SF wouldn't really build as many as before right after the war so they can first replace existing losses with smaller/powerful ships of the new era.

I never said the Defiant is a match for the Galaxy class. I said it has an impressive fire power packed into a very small design compared to the Galaxy class.
Then again, Defiant was able to destroy a Jem'Hadaar bug with several shots, while the Galaxy class that fought a same design in an episode before, didn't do any real damage firing it's supposedly much more powerful phaser beams, and was actually blown up with a suicide run from the bug it was trying to dispatch.

There's a reason Defiant was designated a 'warship' after all. It would likely present a real threat to the Galaxy class (as it did to numerous Cardassian 'warships' ... poor as they are).
Whether or not it would win in a matchout, I don't know. Probably not, but victory isn't always dependant on who has a bigger ship.

I'd personally use Defiants and Saber class ships for border patrols that are close to star-bases and various space installations while sending larger ships more often to exploratory assignments.

SF ships can operate in a number of fields despite their designs. Of course that specific designs will excel better in one area or the other, depending on class (they'll be more efficient), while the Sovereign, Galaxy, Intrepid and Nebula, seem to be 'jack of all trades' type of ships.