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The only way I can swallow what happened is by assuming that it was some kind of double bluff, and Ben Kingsley really was the Mandarin. I know it's flawed, but it's the only way I can stomach what happened.

Honestly, the only good things about these movies have been Robert Downey Jr. and the design of the original Iron Man armor. The actual stories and storytelling have truly and utterly sucked. But Downey was just so perfect for the role and he is so charismatic that they're still watchable.

I'd love to see what we'd get with a decent script and talented director.

But even more, I"d love to see more faithful adaptations of all these characters. I hate this insistence on "having" to reinvent every little detail just because some college professor told some film students that so-and-so doesn't work on the big screen. So no one ever even bothers to try. It's ridiculous.

But even more, I"d love to see more faithful adaptations of all these characters. I hate this insistence on "having" to reinvent every little detail just because some college professor told some film students that so-and-so doesn't work on the big screen. So no one ever even bothers to try. It's ridiculous.

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Nonsense. The Iron Man movies are quite faithful to the source material, much more faithful than anyone expected them to be. It must be noted, however, that the original material is not very good and that you'd be hard pressed to name more than two Iron Man storylines which are considered to be bona fide classics of the superhero genre. Iron Man is much more successful as a movie character than he's ever been as a comic book character, which should tell you something about the perceived quality of the scripts and direction.

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I would disagree. I'm guessing your asking for someone to name story lines that aren't Demon in a Bottle or Armor Wars? Not sure that alone proves anything.

Iron Man has been a top tier comic character, in general for decades. It's not like he only had some 12-ish mini series. His movie success only showed to a general, wider audience why he's been published non-stop for over 40 decades and the success in that medium that he's had.

Nonsense. The Iron Man movies are quite faithful to the source material

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The Mandarin disagrees.

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Fu Manchu with magic rings is derivative of undistinguished pulp writing, and worse, ignores all the ugly racial implications that could torpedo the movie's entertainment value. The first Iron Man movie was alert, focused on blowback and taking responsibility and Stark's fellow prisoner. The third movie was perfunctory enough. Incorporating the comic book Mandarin would have just been dickish.

Fu Manchu with magic rings is derivative of undistinguished pulp writing, and worse, ignores all the ugly racial implications that could torpedo the movie's entertainment value. The first Iron Man movie was alert, focused on blowback and taking responsibility and Stark's fellow prisoner. The third movie was perfunctory enough. Incorporating the comic book Mandarin would have just been dickish.

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Minor changes for modern sensibilities would have been fine. What we got in the movie was nothing even remotely close to the Mandarin. He didn't have to be "Fu Manchu," but at least being real would have been nice. Ditto for having the rings. And, you know, just being a real, challenging, and interesting villain. Not a washed-up actor using a stupid voice. (Which, somehow, isn't insulting to the Middle East anywhere as badly as a Fu Manchu type would have been to China. I guess making fun of their stereotypes is okay since they're currently America's "enemy.")

It'd be like Batman facing the Joker... only to find out that the Joker is just a sticker on the back of some redneck's pick-up. Or Superman pited against Lex Luthor... who turns out to be nothing more than the letters that were on some chick's Scrabble slate.

But nevermind any of that. Jarvis also disagrees. So does the Extremis project. Neither of which needed -- in any way, shape or form -- to be changed for "movie going audiences." Yet changed they were. Even more absurdly, no one in the movie universe has shown even a mild interest in the super-advanced AI that is Jarvis. Which in insane considering his capabilities. Even the AI in the mechanical arm would be worth risking everything to get.

(Also, do yourself a favor and read back over what this subtopic is about before ranting on some more.)

But the major foreign affairs policy initiative under way is the "pivot" to Asia, meaning against China. Most of humanity is "our" enemy, including the larger portion of the domestic US population. Turning the Mandarin into a big fraud perpetrated on the US government isn't nearly as honest as a big fraud perpetrated by the US government. An audience member who insists can still interpret the ten rings logi with its Arabic script at face value, but the story says otherwise. I think that's about as decent as you're going to get for a summer blockbuster movie.

I personally would have had a real Mandarin of sorts, a US citizen of Chinese descent from a Washington Beltway security thinktank operating an intelligence operation to subvert China on behalf of the US government. And everyone of the ten rings a development of Stark technology. And the name would merely have been a nickname from Stark, as he mocked the academic credentials of the villain. Stark could simultaneously have been loose cannon, prima donna, lone man against the establishment, the establishment personified and hero taking responsibility. Neither of us got the Mandarin we preferred.

You're right about Jarvis and Extremis. Whatever Extremis was in the comics, it was hasty and derivative in the movie. As for Jarvis, I think I would have cast David Hyde Pierce. Talking to any real human would have been better.

It'd be like Batman facing the Joker... only to find out that the Joker is just a sticker on the back of some redneck's pick-up. Or Superman pited against Lex Luthor... who turns out to be nothing more than the letters that were on some chick's Scrabble slate.

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The analogy, of course, is broken; there was a real "Mandarin" of sorts in this film, and it was Killian. You might say that he wasn't Chinese. Well, you were ready to accept the non-Chinese Ben Kingsley as the Mandarin, weren't you?

The analogy, of course, is broken; there was a real "Mandarin" of sorts in this film, and it was Killian. You might say that he wasn't Chinese. Well, you were ready to accept the non-Chinese Ben Kingsley as the Mandarin, weren't you?

"The only way I can swallow what happened is by assuming that it was some kind of double bluff, and Ben Kingsley really was the Mandarin. I know it's flawed, but it's the only way I can stomach what happened."

Yes, that would have been the only way I'd "accept" what happened in the movie. It doesn't mean I would have been any more happy with it, or that it would have made the character even remotely similar to the comic book version of the character.

As I told stj: Do yourself a favor and read back over on the actual subtopic being discussed rather than just picking random tidbits.

You claimed it was the only way you could swallow what happened, and the only way you could stomach what happened. So it would have taken you from not swallowing what happened and not stomaching what happened to swallowing what happened and stomaching what happened. That would arguably constitute an increase in your relative happiness with what happened.

The Mandarin was a huge disappointment.
When you have an army of mutants, freaking Norse gods and all kinds of aliens you may just as well throw in ten alien rings that unlock superhuman powers (Clarke's "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." comes to mind) and some megalomaniac whose ego trip makes Stark seem humble in comparison.

But even with a handicap like that they still delivered an entertaining piece of popcorn cinema that made up for many of the shortcomings of the second movie.

I can't remember how much this has been discussed, but I think it's worth keeping in mind this was a Chinese co-production, so that probably made them pretty paranoid about making the true villain Chinese. Even if they didn't want to go the full comic book version, it probably made them pretty nervous making him Chinese at all.