Posted - 12/02/2013 : 09:06:23 Well the game came and went with another home loss for the Senators, while they acted classy welcoming there former captain. Was nice to see the tribute before the game, a packed crowd at the CTC, season high BTW. Totally get the boo'ing coming from the crowd during the second as Alfredsson played the puck and later in the 3rd when he scored the empty net. This should be my last post on this topic, but I am left disappointed that the Sen's didn't play hard in a 4 point game and am left to wonder if there compete was as hard at home when listening to the home crowd come out in higher numbers, to cheer a rival player, harder than they have for the home team all year. Might be something to this 4-8-2 home record, with there good 6-5-2 road record.

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 11/27/2013 : 14:16:52 One great thing about this game, the fans will fill the rink, which has been an issue in Ottawa lately. How can they not come out for a look at Alfredsson new team. Whether they are looking to give thanks, tell him what they really think of his moving on, or say goodbye, this is likely one of the last in Ottawa opportunities they have. Hope the attendance woe's in Ottawa smarten up. I have read so much negative reactions to Melnyk since this summer and most of it started shortly after Alfredsson's departure. Its like the fan's expect the $5-10 million Melnyk and the Sen's didn't spend of the cap, due to internal cap issues, would push them into a cup lock. Maybe its the distance I am away from them, but the flexibility they have now is great compared to cap pressed teams which are also struggling, some in the bottom 10 of the league.

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 11/27/2013 : 14:09:30 Oh I had a comment saved for that missed game, but didn't want to appear overly anti Alfredsson. Wouldn't be surprised if it happened again this weekend. I wouldn't want to face the Senators at home undefeated in there division, desperate for a home win, against a team the have had 2 decisive victory's against recently, especially with something to prove against a player who spurned them. They don't have the best record right now, but the start to the season was a rough western road trip and the schedule is much kinder to them. I'd say a Detroit visit is what the doctor ordered for the Sen's.

quote:Originally posted by Alex116

Joshua....i'm shocked you didn't comment on the fact that Alfie didn't play the home game vs Ott last Sat night, but curiously made the road trip to Buffalo and made his return from injury less than 24 hours after that Sens/Wings game? Now, i'm not saying he intentionally ditched playing his old team, but......

Alex116

Posted - 11/26/2013 : 22:27:06 Joshua....i'm shocked you didn't comment on the fact that Alfie didn't play the home game vs Ott last Sat night, but curiously made the road trip to Buffalo and made his return from injury less than 24 hours after that Sens/Wings game? Now, i'm not saying he intentionally ditched playing his old team, but......

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 11/26/2013 : 13:41:33 So looking forward to Sundays game against the Wings. This will be one of those games I hope the Sens put on there A game, and a hitting parade with Alfredssons return to Ottawa. Recent history is on the Sen's side with the last 2 against Detroit good quality wins and Detroit struggling. Wanna see Alfredsson's reaction to the fan base he left behind to pursue a cup in Motor City. Might give me closure on the how's and why's of him leaving.

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 11/21/2013 : 17:57:50 More good news for Alfredsson. Hasn't played since Nov 13th with 1 point -1 in the prior 4 games or 5 points in last 11 games and currently sitting on the IR for the last 5 games (who called that one, oh yah this guy). Seems Alfredsson has already received his signing bonus, seriously, he is getting paid $5.5 million and some people defended it. Gotta love it. Coincidentally Detroit is bottoming out going 0-2-5 in there last 7 games and 0-2-6 in there last 8 at home. How you like them apples Alfie.

Alex116

Posted - 10/23/2013 : 20:26:52

quote:Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

You all knew this was coming from me.

You couldn't be the slightest bit more correct in that statement!!! Lol....

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/23/2013 : 20:09:57 You all knew this was coming from me. The first time Alfredsson plays the Sens and Alfredsson is a non factor on the score sheet and Ottawa on the road embarrasses Detroit 6-1 on the strength of Spezza's 2 goal performance and Ryan (Alfredsson much more talented replacement) 2 goal performance. How you like those apples Alfie. Take your tired ol ass to that better team for a cup win Ottawa doesn't need you and frankly is better without you.

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/07/2013 : 08:21:52

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

quote:Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Selanne took a home town discount in his retirement season to play for the only team he considered playing. That's class. Alfredsson in his final seasons became a hired gun. Can't compare the class of these 2 players. Tell me how it makes sense to compare Alfredsson to Jagr who is also a hired gun, is making less than Alfredsson should he reach his performance bonus? IMO, Jagr has a higher point potential than Alfredsson, yet Alfredsson was insulted by the suggestion he should get paid a mere $500,000.00 more than Jagr.

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

Simple, because Selanne took the hometown discount. What do you think he could have gotten on the open market?? How about Jagr, who is a far more reasonable comparison and he was also a free agent signing on the open market. He got $4.5 million last year and $4 million this year. Techincally, Alfredsson got $3.5 million with the potential for $2 m more in bonus.

The deal Alfredsson got was not only fair but likely what he could have gotten from most any team interested.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Keep making stuff up and putting words into my mouth.

Firstly, you convieniently left you the fact that Selanne received 3 consecutive years of RAISES before he took his drop this year.

If you want respect you gotta give respect.

Secondly, I never said that Alfredsson should be getting paid more or less than Jagr. What I am saying is that he and Alfredsson are in similar situations as past their prime former superstars who were hired guns. Point is, the deal that Alfredsson got is comparable to another player in a similar situation.

What is your point?? That's Alfredsson is overpaid?? Still haven't debated that once.

You still can't get to fact that Alfredsson left money on the table for almost a decade and was only insulted when the team kicked him in the crotch as he left.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Your response here makes no sense. First you suggest Selanne, not Alfredsson received a raise in his previous contract, and that's why Selanne took a home town discount. Fact Alfredsson received the highest pay of his career in his last contract, higher in the last 5 or 6 years than Selanne, except 2013 and even when you average the salary, Alfredsson still averaged better pay over the term. You say its a lack of respect on the teams part, yet conveniently dismiss the fact that the Senators offered Alfredsson his career average pay, which was more than twice what Selanne received this year and he took that as an insult. Then next you say you never debated whether Alfredsson was overpaid this year, yet you continue to say Ottawa which offered more guarantee than Detroit and more than twice Selanne's wage in Anaheim, didn't treat Alfredsson with respect. I would have rather had Selanne for the last 5 or 6 years at a savings compared to Alfredsson, hell I would pay a premium for Selanne, because he truly is the classiest player in the league. 2 different classes of players and at this stage of there career's Selanne has more class. Really rather you didn't say the 2 of them in the same sentence.

I don't care that Alfredsson could have earned more over his career had he left as a free agent, because he didn't. You and him seem to think this was the teams problem, but Alfredsson chose to sign and play in Ottawa. I don't care that the lockout and rollback cause him to lose million because every player signed previous to the lockout had the same problem. The smart players signed short term or waited for the CBA to be ratiefied. Had Alfredsson signed after the CBA and lockout was ratified he would have received 100% of his contract value signed pre lockout. He choose to negotiate prior to the CBA and it was his decision to put pen to paper. So stop whining he got paid less than he deserved when he signed the contracts. Get mad at the BOG and Bettman if you have an issue.

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/06/2013 : 14:18:22 Hey I might be a little bitter, but you are using scenerios to justify your opinion, but calling it fact. Fact is I don't agree he was underpaid in the last 4 years and I am not alone. He may have been underpaid in his prior 4 year contract , but I don't think over all thru his last 2 contracts he was underpaid. Regardless of pay, which we will never agree, you and I will also never agree in thinking Alfredssons actions were justified.

Beans15

Posted - 10/06/2013 : 06:30:46 Not making many assumptions hey? You must be part of the Sens organization to able to make all these statements about what all the people were thinking in the past but you are not making any assumptions right?

I am at a point where I have no idea what your POV is. I bring up market value and you bring up overpaid vs. underpaid. I show comparable players and you talk about what people inside the organization were thinking about 5 years ago. I bring up fact and you bring up opinion.

Fortunately for anyone who has been following this, the time for this argument is over. I have proven countless times that Alfredsson did not receive market value for his services over the to past 8 years and continue to prove it. You have proven you are a bitter and biased fan and continue to prove it.

There are other interesting hockey stories to discuss.

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/04/2013 : 18:58:08 See you are assuming I am using hindsight to guage what the Senators were thinking with there last offer, but you are also assuming with hindsight what and when Alfredsson claimed he was owed money. Take a look at the 2 word assuming and hindsight here for a second. Assuming makes an as out of you and me if I agreed with you. I don't agree with you thereby leaving you alone in this. I believe Murray, Melnyk, Alfredsson and his agent are smart men. When the contract in 2009 was signed they got paid what they felt was compensation for years in the previous contract which were underpaid. It has been said andf not denied by the team that Alfredsson assumed he would not play to the end of his contract in 2013 and the pay in the 4 prior years was sufficient. Ottawa also assumed this, but that is not how it played. Obviously Alfredsson also assumed he was worth in excess of $4 million per year in 2013 for 48 games played and $4+ million more in 2013/14, which is likely why he requested $7 million for this year. Well the team obviously disagreed and felt his value was $4.5 million including back pay if owed at all for 2013 shortened pay. I agreed with them.

Beans15

Posted - 10/04/2013 : 11:13:26 You continue to bring up this overpaid vs underpaid thing. What you are using is hindsight and that is incorrect. You can always say after the fact if it was good or bad. Bottom line, market value is at the timing of signing, not at the termination of the contract.

In 2004, Alfredsson signed a contract below market value. He could have gotten more. The fact that he was productive doesn't change that.

In 2009, Alfredsson signed a contract below market value. He could have gotten more. The fact that he was not as productive doesn't change that.

As much as how he departed tarnished his legacy, the way he was treated untarnishes his legacy. There are people that think he was mistreated by the team.

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/04/2013 : 10:54:10 I have tried to show you how Alfredsson has benefitted from the relationship, but that requires you agree that in his more productive, but underpaid season were compensated in his less productive yet overpaid seasons. How he departed has left a sour feeling in its wake. Some of his actions which could have been overlooked while he was the captain now become part of his legacy. Had he remained a Sens for life, he would have been remembered more how you feel he should have, but leaving and how he left has tarnished his legacy.

Beans15

Posted - 10/04/2013 : 06:14:49 Couple of things. Firstly, I don't recall bashing Hemsky. In fact, I recall defending his last contract. I have been frustrated with Hemsky's consistency and work effect but I don't ever recall bashing his skill.

More importantly Hemsky gets $5 million a year where Alfredsson gets $3.5 plus bonus if he performs. Between the two deals and two contracts, I like Alfredsson better because I would only pay $5 million if I get $5 million worth of production.

Alex, you are 100% correct and I agree that he did leave pretty easily. But my argument from the start still has never been the value of Alfredsson and how much he could or should have been paid by Ottawa. It was that Alfredsson was not unreasonable in his requests and I think the Sens mistreated him.

If they didn't want to pay the money or Alfie wanted to leave all along the situation still could have been handled better. The reason I fault the Sens over Alfie is that they received the lion's share of the benefit of the relationship.

Beans, I see your points and agree with most of them but it seems that one of the main points of this whole dispute with the Sens and Alfie has to do with that 1M year he played when everyone, himself included, thought he'd be retired. Obviously he did the team a favor adding that year to bring the cap down and I suppose he wanted some of that money back. I see his point as they're not up against the cap and could have afforded to offer him more. I blame the Sens for this. I do however, still feel that Alfie wanted to go somewhere that he thought would give him a better shot at a cup. He just seems to have left rather easily?

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/03/2013 : 17:46:52 I don't get it. You undervalue Hemsky who is signed for similar value to Alfredsson but 10 years younger and defend Alfredsson. Hemsky is likely to outpoint Alfredsson this year and yet you have told me many times you displeasure with this guy. How you view Hemsky is how I view Alfredsson, except Hemsky to me is of greater value at this point in his career vs Alfredsson at the end of his..

Beans15

Posted - 10/03/2013 : 14:42:22 BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH,BLAH.

1 - Alfredsson was worth between $48 and $56 million of the final 2 deals (8 years) of this deals with Ottawa. He was paid around $40 million

2 - Yes, I would take Daniel Alfredsson for a 1 yr $5 million to play for the Oilers in a heartbeat. Wouldn't even think about it. He is a legit Hall of Famer, former 100 pt player, and a guy who has been to the playoffs and the finals. I still think he has 50+pts in the tank and he is a marketers dream because he is one of the truly good guys in hockey.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/03/2013 : 12:38:30 I have debated you for 2 months about the underpaid issue. You still never answered the questions from page 2. Was Alfredsson worth $7 + .7million in 2009/10 for 70 games 71 points, 2010/11 54 games 31 points (top 5 pay in the league) or was he over paid? How about 2011/12 at $4.5 + .7million for 59 point 75 games (top 30 pay). To me Alfredsson was not a top 10 player let alone a top 5 player in the league during these times or at all in his career and yet was paid top 5 pay for at least 2 years of his career. So unless you think he was a top 10 player at 36-39 there was no doubt the Sens have paid him back for years he was underpaid, except 2013. And again because you keep dodging the question, would you accept Alfredsson playing for your team for $5 million this season?

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

quote:Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Selanne took a home town discount in his retirement season to play for the only team he considered playing. That's class. Alfredsson in his final seasons became a hired gun. Can't compare the class of these 2 players. Tell me how it makes sense to compare Alfredsson to Jagr who is also a hired gun, is making less than Alfredsson should he reach his performance bonus? IMO, Jagr has a higher point potential than Alfredsson, yet Alfredsson was insulted by the suggestion he should get paid a mere $500,000.00 more than Jagr.

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

Simple, because Selanne took the hometown discount. What do you think he could have gotten on the open market?? How about Jagr, who is a far more reasonable comparison and he was also a free agent signing on the open market. He got $4.5 million last year and $4 million this year. Techincally, Alfredsson got $3.5 million with the potential for $2 m more in bonus.

The deal Alfredsson got was not only fair but likely what he could have gotten from most any team interested.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Keep making stuff up and putting words into my mouth.

Firstly, you convieniently left you the fact that Selanne received 3 consecutive years of RAISES before he took his drop this year.

If you want respect you gotta give respect.

Secondly, I never said that Alfredsson should be getting paid more or less than Jagr. What I am saying is that he and Alfredsson are in similar situations as past their prime former superstars who were hired guns. Point is, the deal that Alfredsson got is comparable to another player in a similar situation.

What is your point?? That's Alfredsson is overpaid?? Still haven't debated that once.

You still can't get to fact that Alfredsson left money on the table for almost a decade and was only insulted when the team kicked him in the crotch as he left.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Beans15

Posted - 10/03/2013 : 11:59:01

quote:Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Selanne took a home town discount in his retirement season to play for the only team he considered playing. That's class. Alfredsson in his final seasons became a hired gun. Can't compare the class of these 2 players. Tell me how it makes sense to compare Alfredsson to Jagr who is also a hired gun, is making less than Alfredsson should he reach his performance bonus? IMO, Jagr has a higher point potential than Alfredsson, yet Alfredsson was insulted by the suggestion he should get paid a mere $500,000.00 more than Jagr.

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

Simple, because Selanne took the hometown discount. What do you think he could have gotten on the open market?? How about Jagr, who is a far more reasonable comparison and he was also a free agent signing on the open market. He got $4.5 million last year and $4 million this year. Techincally, Alfredsson got $3.5 million with the potential for $2 m more in bonus.

The deal Alfredsson got was not only fair but likely what he could have gotten from most any team interested.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Keep making stuff up and putting words into my mouth.

Firstly, you convieniently left you the fact that Selanne received 3 consecutive years of RAISES before he took his drop this year.

If you want respect you gotta give respect.

Secondly, I never said that Alfredsson should be getting paid more or less than Jagr. What I am saying is that he and Alfredsson are in similar situations as past their prime former superstars who were hired guns. Point is, the deal that Alfredsson got is comparable to another player in a similar situation.

What is your point?? That's Alfredsson is overpaid?? Still haven't debated that once.

You still can't get to fact that Alfredsson left money on the table for almost a decade and was only insulted when the team kicked him in the crotch as he left.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/03/2013 : 11:26:46 Selanne took a home town discount in his retirement season to play for the only team he considered playing. That's class. Alfredsson in his final seasons became a hired gun. Can't compare the class of these 2 players. Tell me how it makes sense to compare Alfredsson to Jagr who is also a hired gun, is making less than Alfredsson should he reach his performance bonus? IMO, Jagr has a higher point potential than Alfredsson, yet Alfredsson was insulted by the suggestion he should get paid a mere $500,000.00 more than Jagr.

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

Simple, because Selanne took the hometown discount. What do you think he could have gotten on the open market?? How about Jagr, who is a far more reasonable comparison and he was also a free agent signing on the open market. He got $4.5 million last year and $4 million this year. Techincally, Alfredsson got $3.5 million with the potential for $2 m more in bonus.

The deal Alfredsson got was not only fair but likely what he could have gotten from most any team interested.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Beans15

Posted - 10/03/2013 : 08:43:34 Simple, because Selanne took the hometown discount. What do you think he could have gotten on the open market?? How about Jagr, who is a far more reasonable comparison and he was also a free agent signing on the open market. He got $4.5 million last year and $4 million this year. Techincally, Alfredsson got $3.5 million with the potential for $2 m more in bonus.

The deal Alfredsson got was not only fair but likely what he could have gotten from most any team interested.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Alex116

Posted - 10/02/2013 : 20:50:34

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

Nope, I am not impying that he should have gotten $7 m. I think his deal for $5.5 including incentives is market value. Maybe a shade high but we would be splitting hairs.

I brought the point up early, and it was ignored by some people (not you specifically) but look at how other players who made similar sacrificed to Alfredsson were treated? Most of the guys who take hometown discounts earlier in their career are not cast aside by their teams late in their careers. Sellane is a perfect example of a guy who has actually gotten INCREASES in his 1 yr deals in 3 of the last 4 years.

It's not a loan if you don't give all of it back. What I liken it to is that I'll help you today and you don't forget about me helping you tomorrow. The Sens forgot all that Alfie did for them on and off the ice in his 17 years in the city.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Alfie has been scoring around a 55pt avg over an 82 game sched for the past 2 seasons. Yes, he brings some other stuff to the table, but he is not a 5M dollar guy in my mind! We'd be doing more than splitting hairs if you really feel he's worth 5 at this point of his career! Kesler and the Sedin's are the only Canuck forwards getting 5M or more and Kes is only at 5 exactly. No way would I have wanted the Canucks to bid 5M or more for Alfie!!! Now, keep in mind, this is a 3.5M contract with 2M in performance bonuses. Do we know what these are? Points related? GP related? I personally don't recall hearing what they are, but this is important.

A comparison that you brought up (Selanne) is really a good one for what you were using it for (his increases) but also for the argument to justify Alfie's deal. Here's the salaries you speak of (the increasing ones) of Selanne.......

Two year deal for 5.25M08/09 - 3.25M09/10 - 2.0M

10/11 - 3.25 on a one year deal (same as two years prior) with performance bonuses that i'm not sure he rec'd but i'm guessing he did considering he had 31goals and 80pts in 73games!

11/12 - 4M for one year, no bonuses. Sure, a raise, but look at the numbers the year prior!!! I think it was a fair raise!!! He ended with 26 goals and 66pts, still pretty good numbers.

12/13 - 4.5 for one year, no bonuses. Small raise, mildly surprising, but still less than what Alfie was asking for. 12G, 12A in 46games. Essentially the same as Alfie (10G, 16A in 47games).

13/14 - Close to retirement, a 2M deal for one year with no bonuses. Prob low if anything?

Here's the thing. How can you justify Alfie getting 3.5-5.5 when Selanne, coming off better stats over the last 3 seasons is getting 2M max???

Anyway, that's totally got me off topic that we were originally discussing. The hometown discount is what I have the issue with. Again, I feel like you make it out to be a loan. I agree with you about part of your stance. The Sens have a rich owner with cap space to play with and therefore they prob should have offered him more to make up for what he signed for in the past. I don't agree that he's worth 5+ but they have the room to give him that or more and maybe they should have. The whole beef I have with this is it can easily have an affect on other teams and the way they do business. The Sedin's are FA's after this season. Let's say they take another hometown discount here and sign for 5M per over 3 more years? If they become 2nd liners in 3 years and are scoring at a pace of just 55-60 points, are the Canucks expected to give them 7 each the next year to thank them for these past couple of "discounted" deals? What if, and it's likely the case, the team is up against the cap? Would the Sens giving Alfie his 7M set a precedent that other guys would expect???

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/02/2013 : 15:48:34 I don't have a habit of bashing a player on my team, although I may have let a few comments go in the past, but yes I probably defended a few of his actions I wish I hadn't. I did not want him as the face of my franchise and had other players I wished the Senators had taken care of the way the Senators took care of Alfredsson. Biggest of those was Yashin and Chara, but I am certain there were many others that Ottawa let go which I would rather have had as the face of the franchise above Alfredsson.

You had argued prior he was not given his full salary amount and that was the greatest disagreement we had had, which you have now conceded you were wrong. I pointed out 2 months ago when he outperformed his 2004 contract he underperformed his 2009 contract except for the final year, in which you didn't seem to have a problem with that assessment. Now you have jumped back on the wagon that he was underpaid. I think you are just looking for a reason to argue and I am not taking the bait.

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

So now Joshua is going in a completely different direction, yet again!

You first argue that the players I named were not comparable. I proved otherwise using your information. Then you go on the rant saying you can think what ever you want to think. You are completely right in that you can think what ever you want. But, if you think something that is wrong it doesn't make it right!

Now you have started down a tangent that Ottawa had some key choices in the past 10-15 years and you don't like the choices they made. Awesome! I may debate you on some of those points but at the end of the day, you, me, and everyone else are entitled to our own opinions about what we think. What no one is entiteld to is to have opinions about facts.

Finally, the point of wheather you like or dislike Alfredsson is a can not argue with you on. BUT, regardless of you liking him or disliking him does not change what his monetary value was during his career. I can't stand Alex Ovechkin. I think he's a comlpetely jerk and I don't like the way he plays. But it would be virtually impossible for me to argue that he does not earn the money he makes in the environment he is in. Based on his production and what he brings to his team, there isn't more than 3-4 players that could do it as well as he does, hence his salary.

Hate Alfredsson all you want, but it doesn't change his value. What I also find interesting, and I admit now I may be wrong on this, is I don't recall you being an anti-Alfredsson guy before he left Ottawa.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/02/2013 : 15:40:01 Ok, if you truly think he is worth $5 million in salary and that his market value what if this was the Oilers, who Alfredsson had played for and its there $5 million of cap space. I think a lot of people are saying the Senators owed this guy, which I do not agree with, but look at it from your teams own perspective. What other 40 point player in the 40s with injury history, would you expect your team to sign for $5 million a year. Heck the worst part about your argument is it is pending Alfredsson signing in Ottawa for $5 million, which he never even gave the team the option to do. The last I heard his last offer to the Senators was for $7 million for 1 or 2 years at $12. That's absolutely ridicules for his potential this or next year. You argument that he would have sign for this or the team should have offered that is mute because he got pissy at a 10% difference than what you feel he is worth and bashed the team, management and owner. Imagine Hall, RNH, Eberle did the same to the Oilers. Your argument doesn't work because it didn't happen and I agree that is what should have happened if the player wanted to remain a Senator. He clearly didn't.

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

Nope, I am not impying that he should have gotten $7 m. I think his deal for $5.5 including incentives is market value. Maybe a shade high but we would be splitting hairs.

I brought the point up early, and it was ignored by some people (not you specifically) but look at how other players who made similar sacrificed to Alfredsson were treated? Most of the guys who take hometown discounts earlier in their career are not cast aside by their teams late in their careers. Sellane is a perfect example of a guy who has actually gotten INCREASES in his 1 yr deals in 3 of the last 4 years.

It's not a loan if you don't give all of it back. What I liken it to is that I'll help you today and you don't forget about me helping you tomorrow. The Sens forgot all that Alfie did for them on and off the ice in his 17 years in the city.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Beans15

Posted - 10/02/2013 : 11:18:52 Nope, I am not impying that he should have gotten $7 m. I think his deal for $5.5 including incentives is market value. Maybe a shade high but we would be splitting hairs.

I brought the point up early, and it was ignored by some people (not you specifically) but look at how other players who made similar sacrificed to Alfredsson were treated? Most of the guys who take hometown discounts earlier in their career are not cast aside by their teams late in their careers. Sellane is a perfect example of a guy who has actually gotten INCREASES in his 1 yr deals in 3 of the last 4 years.

It's not a loan if you don't give all of it back. What I liken it to is that I'll help you today and you don't forget about me helping you tomorrow. The Sens forgot all that Alfie did for them on and off the ice in his 17 years in the city.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Alex116

Posted - 10/02/2013 : 10:46:23

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

To my man Alex:

It's not a hometown loan! Alfredsson left between $8 and $16 million on the table through his contracts. He started at $7 million for one season or $12 million for 2 and ended up signing for $5.5 with performance bonuses. He starated high, they came back low, likely neither side wanted to meet in the middle. Perhaps it was Alfredsson's idea to leave regardless but for that we can only speculate.

But, if he signed for $5.5 million with Detroit, that was likely at or close to market value. Let's get crazy and say his market value is $5 million. If Ottawa signed him for 1 yr at $5 million, how much of the $8-$16 million that he left on the table did he get paid back for??

I still think the analogy I provided is fair. Alfredsson made concession for his team. He received nothing but a kick in the junk as he walked out the door. My point is he, like you, have a right to be pissed if they are mis-treated.

The final point I want to make is the money is relative. Regardless if you have a lot or not much, the decision made about money are typical. If people do not think they are getting what they are owed it doesn't matter if it's a $2/hr raise at the coffee shop or a $5 million contract in the NHL. Just because hockey players make lots of money doesn't mean they should just roll over and take crap because they can afford it.

Again, you or I wouldn't do that, so why should a hockey player??

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

FIRST THINGS FIRST BEANS! To you, and any other LOSERS (ok, i know you're steaming mad right now wondering where this is going...)..... The season has begun! Are you not permitted to take these ridiculous signatures and avatars down now??? Or Beans, have you converted to a Leafer after last nights Oilers loss and Leafs win? Lol.....btw, "losers" referred to those of you who lost bets.

Now, back on track......Good points made. However, i still see it as a "loan" when you mention how he gave this discount and then somehow is expecting it back. Lets say his market value today is 5M and that's what he got. If the Sens offered him 5, are you implying they should have paid the 7? That's the part i don't get.

Beans15

Posted - 10/02/2013 : 09:27:23 To my man Alex:

It's not a hometown loan! Alfredsson left between $8 and $16 million on the table through his contracts. He started at $7 million for one season or $12 million for 2 and ended up signing for $5.5 with performance bonuses. He starated high, they came back low, likely neither side wanted to meet in the middle. Perhaps it was Alfredsson's idea to leave regardless but for that we can only speculate.

But, if he signed for $5.5 million with Detroit, that was likely at or close to market value. Let's get crazy and say his market value is $5 million. If Ottawa signed him for 1 yr at $5 million, how much of the $8-$16 million that he left on the table did he get paid back for??

I still think the analogy I provided is fair. Alfredsson made concession for his team. He received nothing but a kick in the junk as he walked out the door. My point is he, like you, have a right to be pissed if they are mis-treated.

The final point I want to make is the money is relative. Regardless if you have a lot or not much, the decision made about money are typical. If people do not think they are getting what they are owed it doesn't matter if it's a $2/hr raise at the coffee shop or a $5 million contract in the NHL. Just because hockey players make lots of money doesn't mean they should just roll over and take crap because they can afford it.

Again, you or I wouldn't do that, so why should a hockey player??

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Beans15

Posted - 10/02/2013 : 09:21:00 So now Joshua is going in a completely different direction, yet again!

You first argue that the players I named were not comparable. I proved otherwise using your information. Then you go on the rant saying you can think what ever you want to think. You are completely right in that you can think what ever you want. But, if you think something that is wrong it doesn't make it right!

Now you have started down a tangent that Ottawa had some key choices in the past 10-15 years and you don't like the choices they made. Awesome! I may debate you on some of those points but at the end of the day, you, me, and everyone else are entitled to our own opinions about what we think. What no one is entiteld to is to have opinions about facts.

Finally, the point of wheather you like or dislike Alfredsson is a can not argue with you on. BUT, regardless of you liking him or disliking him does not change what his monetary value was during his career. I can't stand Alex Ovechkin. I think he's a comlpetely jerk and I don't like the way he plays. But it would be virtually impossible for me to argue that he does not earn the money he makes in the environment he is in. Based on his production and what he brings to his team, there isn't more than 3-4 players that could do it as well as he does, hence his salary.

Hate Alfredsson all you want, but it doesn't change his value. What I also find interesting, and I admit now I may be wrong on this, is I don't recall you being an anti-Alfredsson guy before he left Ottawa.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Alex116

Posted - 10/01/2013 : 15:46:40

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

And to Alex: if your boss tells you this year that he need to hire other people to make the company stronger and needs to you keep your salary the same for a few years, are you not a little pissed when you go looking for an extension of the deal and he low balls you? How about if you know he pays less for his staff that almost any company around and is planning on spending less on salaries this year compared to last year? Are you not just a little upset at your sacrificed not being recognized, appreciated, or compensated for? I think he kind of hand a reason for the big eff-you. You gave and did not get

I don't think it's a fair analogy/comparable to talk "companies" and such as comparing them is not the same as NHL hockey teams due to the differences in earning by different teams and their situations with stadiums, concessions, etc. However, more to the point, I think a couple of months ago that this debate started over the way Alfie left and the money owed. I could be totally wrong, but wasn't one of the main points this 1 million dollar year that he agreed to to lower the cap hit and how he felt he was owed for that year seeing as he played it and obviously would have been worth more than 1M? So, perhaps the team should have signed him to a deal worth 2-3M more than what they figured he'd be worth? To me, that's 4-5M tops. That's kinda in the middle of his ask and their offer, no? NO, I wouldn't be offended if I were Alfie and they lowballed me. First off, I wouldn't have come in ridiculously high if I didn't expect them to come in low! Second, I wouldn't walk out on a relationship and possible future with a club i'd spent my entire career with over a few lost dollars (yes, sounds like chump change, but considering the dough these guys make, it pretty much is). I don't know to this day, if he was looking for all these lost "market value dollars" you speak of. But if he was, and I've said this before, WTF good is a "hometown discount" from a player, if they're gonna want it repaid down the road??? That's not a discount, it's a freakin' loan!!!

I believe it had everything to do with that one season at 1M and it wasn't dealt with the day he returned to play that year out. If he wanted more money, why wasn't it dealt with then??? Why'd it wait until he decided on sticking around the NHL for a few more years? Just seems suspect to me that he made a big deal out of it when it came time for the next deal, not when he decided to play that year that he originally planned on retiring!

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/01/2013 : 13:32:10 I'll try to make myself even clearer. The question's for Ottawa has been at different times Alfredsson or Chara or Redden or Hossa or Heatly or Yashin. In my opinion if the Senator could go back and rewrite history, Alfredsson was the wrong player in that group to choose from to keep a Sens for life. I would have kept Chara and not made it a Chara or Redden Issue. I would have kept Hossa and not made it a Hossa for Heatly trade, but for Alfredsson. I would never have paid Alfredsson more than Yashin, thereby creating the situation where Yashin holds out, because he is no longer the top paid player for the franchise. These players were in there time all better IMO than Alfredsson and the players Ottawa should have coveted.

I know I am gonna get backlash for including Yashin in that group because of the circumstances of his departure, but he was the best player Ottawa had in the 90's. If you had seen him play live, he was physical, could skate shoot and pass like an All Star. I remember the last game I seen him play live in Calgary in 2000 I think and he was the best player on the ice by far.

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/01/2013 : 12:37:49 Whatever. The points I have made mean nothing to you and all I want you to do is go away and shut it! You take nothing into account but stats/$, even when some stats/$ go against you! He is a small old player, with an injury history, who left due to a contract dispute, who peeked in his 30's on a great offensive team, but it pissed me off when he made the comments he made last year, comments he made when he signed with Detroit and some of the other things he has done in the history of the franchise. Did you know he once was a hold out due to a contract dispute? Do you remember his gaffe in the playoffs, when Buffalo scored short handed to end the playoff series? Have you sat by hoping the best for your team, while the captain sat on the IR? I have and I am allowed my position? Deal with it!

Beans15

Posted - 10/01/2013 : 12:22:16 You are missing the point completely. As usual.And your information still proves my point. Alfredsson might have been the lowest of the three players being compared but there is no way in hell you can say that over a 4 season period of time the difference of 24 points between Alfredsson and Thorton is worth $2 million/season less. That's 6 points a season (on average) difference and you're trying to use that as proof that Thornton is worth $2 million more per season??

That's awesome!

The fact of the matter is that all of these players signed contracts as similar times, produced at similar rates, and their teams had similar success.

Now, when Alfredsson signed his contract in 2004, producing as much or more than his peers, he was making $1-$2 million LESS than his peers over a 4 year period.

My crazy math says that he left $4-$8 million on the table had he left to another team.

At his next contract he was in line to get paid and did a favour to the team by adding a 4th year onto the contract( no on disputes this) which is another favour for the team. Again, you can look at what actually happened but what the environment was when he signed the contract. In 2009 he was coming off a 4 year stretch as better than a PPG player and a career PPG player. But he again signed a contract with the team for $1-$2 million less than market value.

So, through 8 years of 2 deals he left between $8m and $16m on the table trying to win in Ottawa AND provide the team with the ability to sign quality players.

So, when he wants to play another year and is asking for a little more than market value, you don't think he earned it in the past 8 years?? You don't think he earned that by being one of the most consistent and productive players in the past 15 years, leaving millions on the table to ensure the team could stay competative, and being the face of the franchise??

C'mon dude. Put yourself in those shoes and you have a totally different opinion.

In most cases when a player does what Alfredsson did for the Senators, he's provided his terms to leave. He is also normally giving a front office job of some type and a thank you for years of dedicated service. Isn't that how it normally works?? How did Lidstrom leave?? Messier?? Yzerman?? Even Selanne as a recent example, got RAISES in 3 of his last 4 1 yr contracts. He went from $3.25+bonus, to $4, to $4.5 and only this year took a deduction.

I just can't believe that someone who claims to be a Sens fan would so quickly and inappropriate crap all over the face of the franchise for so many years when all he did for the Sens was give, give, give, and give.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/01/2013 : 12:09:20 Oh and yah I think Marleau has been for the last 8 years a more complete player than Alfredsson and should make more money, but in a few season's Alfredsson year to year made more money than Marleau. I have shown you with my last response the Marleau for the last 8 years has been on pace for Alfredssons ppg. Lets forget points and money here for a second. Marleau is bigger, younger, less injury prone, plays with a physical side and is most importantly a center. Marleau has been able to pace Alfredsson a winger while centering the 2nd line in Sanjose who would host on his line a plethora of young up and coming players, who Thorton and Marleau have made career's out of peeking the performance of linemates. Add to that Marleau has been able to play winger as well giving San Jose that flexibility to move him up when needed to Thorton's line. Now that both are playing primarily on the same line both are still putting up numbers Alfredsson only remembers when playing with the actual best players Ottawa has ever seen in Spezza, Yashin, Hossa etc etc etc. Alfredsson is just that, one of the better offensive players Ottawa has enjoyed, but never the best, but able to put franchise numbers up due to the length he played there.

Now there is a clear drop in production from Alfredsson during his last 4 season but there is no fathomable way that you can say these players are not comparable.

If this was an argument on what player was better then you would have some points for Iginla and Thornton. If you say Marleau is a better player than Alfredsson then all you are doing is showing how thick you bias really is.

This proves that not only was Alfredsson undervalued during his first 5 yr deal, but is also proves that he likely would have had market value similar to these players had he become a free agent either in 2004 or 2009.

GAME. SET. MATCH.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

I have cleared out the rest of your last response to get to the nitty gritty of the problem here. Alfredsson made Thorton, Iginla and Marleau money in 2009-2013, but was not on the level of these 3 great players in ppg pace. In 2004-2008 he was making less than Iginla and Thorton but was producing on the level. I can show you how in there very early 20 Thorton and Iginla were producing at a higher ppg pace than Alfredsson in his early 30's when he was making more than these 2. And that's really the point here Alfredsson signed in 2004 because of performance prior to 2004 not the other way around. Thorton and Iginla were at a higher performance level on worse teams and were way younger with a higher upside. Alfredsson outperformed his contract in 2004-2008 and was compensated in 2009, which he then performed at a lessor level than the other 3.

Marleau wasn't on the level of Alfredsson prior to the Thorton trade and was being paid less than Alfredsson at the time. He was a late bloomer. But if you recheck your stats, Marleau has been at Alfredsson's pace since Thortons trade. As a matter of fact last year he handly outscored Alfredsson and all indications are that he will continue to do so for a very long time.

What does all this mean, Alfredsson wanted there pay now, for half of there stats in his 40's. Do you still think the Senators insulted him?

Oh and GAME SET MATCH!

Beans15

Posted - 10/01/2013 : 09:14:01 Here is the part that is remarkable: not only are you dead wrong but you are being completely ignorant!

Now there is a clear drop in production from Alfredsson during his last 4 season but there is no fathomable way that you can say these players are not comparable.

I never once said Alfredsson was better than any of these players but they are 100% comparable and these are his peers. They are similar in production, similar in age (at the least in games played), and in similar situations (the team lead with limited playoff success and no Cups). If this was an argument on what player was better then you would have some points for Iginla and Thornton. If you say Marleau is a better player than Alfredsson then all you are doing is showing how thick you bias really is.

These players were paid to produce. They were their teams top scorers (or close to it) and that is what they received their contract for. Alfredsson's peers all made more money. I don't understand how you can say that these players are not comparable. This proves that not only was Alfredsson undervalued during his first 5 yr deal, but is also proves that he likely would have had market value similar to these players had he become a free agent either in 2004 or 2009.

GAME. SET. MATCH.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 10/01/2013 : 08:25:35

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

See, now you are talking in circles. You can' took at the $7 million per season in the first two years of the deal without addressing the $1 million at the end of the deal. Alfredsson has stated, to which the Sens have not denied, that was asked to add a year on to the deal to keep the cap hit low.

Now, to the point of him being paid over market value, again you can't look at it as this season he was but this season he wasn't within the old salary cap system. Look at the total value of the contract, the length, and what other players of his age and ability were getting paid. Case in point, Jerome Iginla. I'm not saying that Alfredsson is a better player but their performance, age, and situations were very similar. So why, when Alfredsson is making $4.8 per year cap hit is Iginla making $7 million?

Comparing Iginla 36, 6-1 and 210 to Alfredsson 40, 5-11 203 is not a fair comparison at this point in there careers. Alfredsson has a 40-50 potential and Iginla is still a 70-80 point player. Actually over the course of there career Iginla has always been the more prolific scorer of the 2 and a coveted power forward on lessor teams. At 4 years younger Iginla has played in more games and has more points on lessor teams, which really highlights why he is the more coveted and expensive player.

How about Joe Thornton or Patrick Marleau. Nt saying better or worse than Alfredsson but produced simile numbers, about the same age, and in the same position, were making $6-$7 when Alfredsson was making under $5.

You wanna compare Jumbo Joe to Alfredsson. When if ever was Alfredsson on the level of Jumbo Joe who is 34, a centerman 6-4 and 220. He's younger and still has ppg potential written all over him. The best part is at 6 years younger he has more points in his career and has played in more games than Alfredsson in his injury plagued career. I have no problem with Jumbo making significantly more money than Alfredsson.

Marleau also 34 6-2 and 220, who doesn't yet have the career ppg or career point totals of Alfredsson, is a center younger, bigger and again has a higher ppg potential than Alfredsson in this upcoming season. Marleau's ppg have steadily increased since Joe Thornton joined the Sharks. He has had many ppg seasons and has that potential this season. Plus like Joe, even though he is 6 years younger has already played more games than Alfredsson.

The point is this, when Alfredsson was in his prime and producing at his highest points he was underpaid compared to his peers. Secondly, it's virtually impossible to say that his value on the open market was less than those peers of the same age, production, and situation.

These are not his peers. The are players of greater value, so when you say they made more and it is unfair, that is a personal opinion and again I am of the opinion he was well paid. I'll put it another way. If I had the choice between having Thorton, Marleau or Iginla at 1.5 the pay of Alfredsson at any point of there career's, I would choose any of them instead hands down. No comparison.

The Point is all of the players you named have been and continue to be all star players while Alfredsson had some all star years, but clearly is not one now and hasn't been for years. That doesn't stop him from continuing to demand all star pay however, which is why I have a problem with Alfredsson.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Beans15

Posted - 10/01/2013 : 06:43:03 See, now you are talking in circles. You can' took at the $7 million per season in the first two years of the deal without addressing the $1 million at the end of the deal. Alfredsson has stated, to which the Sens have not denied, that was asked to add a year on to the deal to keep the cap hit low.

Now, to the point of him being paid over market value, again you can't look at it as this season he was but this season he wasn't within the old salary cap system. Look at the total value of the contract, the length, and what other players of his age and ability were getting paid. Case in point, Jerome Iginla. I'm not saying that Alfredsson is a better player but their performance, age, and situations were very similar. So why, when Alfredsson is making $4.8 per year cap hit is Iginla making $7 million? How about Joe Thornton or Patrick Marleau. Nt saying better or worse than Alfredsson but produced simile numbers, about the same age, and in the same position, were making $6-$7 when Alfredsson was making under $5.

The point is this, when Alfredsson was in his prime and producing at his highest points he was underpaid compared to his peers. Secondly, it's virtually impossible to say that his value on the open market was less than those peers of the same age, production, and situation.

And to Alex: if your boss tells you this year that he need to hire other people to make the company stronger and needs to you keep your salary the same for a few years, are you not a little pissed when you go looking for an extension of the deal and he low balls you? How about if you know he pays less for his staff that almost any company around and is planning on spending less on salaries this year compared to last year? Are you not just a little upset at your sacrificed not being recognized, appreciated, or compensated for? I think he kind of hand a reason for the big eff-you. You gave and did not get.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 09/30/2013 : 18:55:20

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

This article certainly does support the option year part of the argument. There is no doubt about that. Do I trust a poster like Joshua or Pitlick from another site?? Hell no! Do I believe a reputable publication like the Hockey News. Heck yes!

Anything that I was quoting regarding the variance in numbers that was incorrect I can easily admit error. I was wrong in the numbers I was presenting. To be fair, the information on nhlnumbers is also incorrect.

Now, if we return to the original argument at hand, the points are clear and even more solidified to my points:

1 - The Ottawa Senators were the one's who most benefited from the last two contracts signed by Daniel Alfredsson.

2 - Had Daniel Alfredsson signed as a free agent with another team for either of his last two contract he would have made substantially more money.

3 - Daniel Alfredsson gave the Senators 17 yrs of some as was an elite player for a number of those years. He did that at a rate of pay far less than what others players of his (or lesser) caliber were receiving.

To return to my original point posted on August 16th which holds true. He took hometown discount after hometown discount and when he wanted to play more hockey the team pushed him out the door. I'm not saying that is even wrong. They could very easily let him go to a different team with dignity and class. Instead, they negotiated like tyrants and then threw him and his agent under the bus.

Here is how the conversations could have and should have gone:

Alfie's camp - Hey Eugene and Brian, we are looking to get paid a bit of that hometown discount back in this contract. What do you think about $7 m for 1 yr or $12 m for 2 years.

Sen's Camp - Oh, geez. That's a little steep for Alfie. He's not the guy he once was. How about $3.5 for one.

Alfie's camp - Really?? 17 yrs and 1100 pts all at a discount and now you are dropping the rates some more. We can't accept that

Sen's Camp - Well that's what it has to be. $3.5 m for one.

Alfie's Camp - We gotta go somewhere else then.

Sen's Camp - Best wishes.

Alfie's Camp - You too.

But it didn't happen like that. Not saying I agree with Alfie airing the dirtry laundry but I have less issue with a player (or a team) bring up things when they are the truth. The team's response to Alfie's comments were crap.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Glad we can get past this ugly underpaid by contract value issue finally

Points 1-2-3 all require I agree that Alfredsson was worth more on the open market in 2004, for me to agree with you points and at the time of his signing and I did not agree with that assessment. He played above his pay grade when the lockout ended, but that was due to the quality of his linemates and rule changes. Prior to that point his value was closer to his signed contractual amount and any other personal opinion is just that a personal opinion. He certainly wasn't worth more in the open market in 2009 when he signed his new contract at $7million per season for the first 2. I believe Alfredsson was paid above his value in 2009 to compensate Alfredsson for overperforming in his last contract. So now both parties win, except Alfredsson was suppose to retire 1 year prior to his final season played at $1 million.

Again if Alfredsson thought he was underpaid in 2012/13 and the team was gonna compensate him it would have happened in 2013/14. Was Alfredsson worth more statistically than a $4.5 guaranteed contract regardless of injury history. I think $4.5 was an overpay for performance potential. Detroit says $3.5 guaranteed and $2 more if you stay healthy and perform at a certain level. $4.5 guaranteed was no insult, but Alfredsson took it otherwise.

I have said in Aug 15th, money and numbers are not my issue with Alfredsson, it has always been what has happened prior to and after this ugly divorce. He has got a free ride based on him being the face of the Senator and now I can air my grievances.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Alex116

Posted - 09/30/2013 : 16:31:41 The biggest issue i had was, and i'm only reading what the Sens have claimed, that Alfie's camp took a "F-You" sort of stance at what they considered a lowball offer and basically were insulted. They apparently didn't come back with a counter offer and try to work things out. If this is true, it seems to me he wanted to go elsewhere from the start and possibly even asked for a number that he knew they wouldn't approach.

Still trying to stear clear of the month and a half long argument so don't wanna get into those details, but wanted to offer up that bit anyway.