"Gandalf the Grey is coming" – Gríma "Wormtongue" "Captain Obvious" son of Gálmód, 2nd March TA3019.

Feel free to answer any, all or none of the following questions.

1) How does this image make you feel?

2) Both of the characters in this shot have pretty extreme facial make-up. What do you think of the decision to make Gríma so slimy-looking? What do you make of Théoden’s appearance?

3) Music Question! From when our four-person Fellowship enter the Golden Hall, we get some very tension-building music (I believe it is a theme for Wormtongue). Do you think it is appropriate, and how do you think the scene would be with a less obviously tense soundtrack?

(The music to which I refer is approximately 0:24-1:27 on "The Court of Meduseld", TTT-CR Disc 2 Track 2, or a bite-sized version at about 1:54-2:10 on "Edoras" on the OST. You can listen to it here.)

To answer the music question... perhaps it's obviously tense (that never bothers me, though), but the music works from a storytelling perspective because it's hinting that Wormtongue is actually working for Saruman. The tempo is 5/4, which is the signature tempo for Isengard.

It makes me feel very sympathetic towards Theoden as we see Grima's foul play in action directly against the king. I think that Brad Dourif was excellent in the role, giving the character a sinister, manipulative and almost brooding nature. At this point in particular he is very strong, as he proceeds to taunt Gandalf, his dark mockery providing a great contrast to the majesty of McKellen's performance.

2) Both of the characters in this shot have pretty extreme facial make-up. What do you think of the decision to make Gríma so slimy-looking? What do you make of Théoden’s appearance?

To be honest I was slighty disappointed about the radical difference between Theoden's two appearances (I imagined him as an old man with a long beard, similar to Tolkien's description and similar to the animated Theoden in the Ralph Bakshi version).

I think that Grima's appearance was very effective, with his pale skin tone representing an image of death and decay to my mind. His black hair and costume along with his piercing eyes help to make him a formidable presence onscreen.

3) Music Question! From when our four-person Fellowship enter the Golden Hall, we get some very tension-building music (I believe it is a theme for Wormtongue). Do you think it is appropriate, and how do you think the scene would be with a less obviously tense soundtrack?

Whatever qualms I have may have with the trilogy (mostly only small ones) I cannot fault the choice of music or Shore's score in any way. The beginning of the piece creates a very uncomfortable and unwelcome feeling, emphasizing that the four companions are outsiders. I think the scene could work with a less tense score, but Shore's version is so embedded into my mind that I can't further comment on this.

4) Any further comments?

One of my favourite scenes in TTT. The dialogue between Wormtongue and Gandalf was well-written/chosen for this moment and I very much like the subtle way in which the Gandalf/Saruman "duel" was handled. "Radagast is, of course, a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue, and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends."-Gandalf, The Lord of the Rings.

Sometimes a lack of subtlety may actually be more appropriate, or at least as dramatically valid.

What matters more to me, in this particular case, is if the efforts to build tension have an effect on those who the efforts are aimed at. And, in my opinion, they absolutely do. For an example, I often think of Jaws...the music may not be so "subtle" that it's barely there, but it builds and builds with such mastery that, even if the audience has a suspicion of what's coming, they're under its spell. So it is also with Shore's scores, from my perspective.

The fact that Wormtongue is evil is obvious, but the fact that he is working specifically with Saruman is not. That aspect of the music (incorporation of a symbolic time signature) is simply subtext. If you're listening for that kind of detail, you'll understand...if not, you'll found out later.

Peter may ask Shore to compose very dramatic music for certain scenes, but there's plenty of stuff going on beneath the obvious factors. It's only obvious on a very simple "this is what I'm immediately hearing" level. There are many layers that shouldn't be so readily dismissed.

The music foreshadows the events too obviously, IMO. I feel that in many cases, the LOTR soundtrack piled onto the drama too forcefully, thus exacerbating PJ's lack of subtlety even further.

When you're telling a larger-than-life epic story, you're not going for subtlety, instead you need villains that project a powerful sense of evil and danger. This is not a mystery story, where you are supposed to figure out for yourself who's the villain here. Let's face it, Tolkien wasn't so subtle himself, introducing this character as "Wormtongue" before we even meet him!

Actually, I think starlesswinter's point about the time signature of the music is a very good one, and one that's borne out by Tolkien's treatment of this episode in the book. I don't think the muscial "clue" is overly obvious, although of course if you pay attention you understand what it means. In fact that's a very good approximation to the storytelling style used by Tolkien here - he's also has made it clear to those who were paying attention that Saruman is at the bottom of the trouble in Rohan, with Gandalf's words at the Council of Elrond: "In Rohan I found evil already at work: the lies of Saruman..." And Gandalf's reaction to the first mention of Wormtongue is far from subtle too - when the guards obstruct the travellers saying they are under orders from Wormtongue:

"‘Wormtongue?’ said Gandalf, looking sharply at the guard. ‘Say no more!"

Not so subtle - but I don't see Tolkien attempting subtlety here, any more than Jackson does. There's a time and a place for subtlety, and this ain't it!

They went in, and Sam shut the door. But even as he did so, he heard suddenly, deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth. From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings

The bit of music I'm talking about, which plays over this, is not in 5/4
[In reply to]

Can't Post

It's mostly in 4/4. The 5/4 rhythm comes in in the more "action"-type music, when the fighting starts (as Grima says "I told you to take the wizard's staff). Still, that's a great point to raise Love those little details in the score.

You said before that you wished PJ had made Wormtongue more subtle in the films, but what would that have accomplished? He has only a major role in one chapter and then brief appearances in two others. Exactly what purpose are we to infer from the character if he's just tossed aside? In fact, his "arc" so to speak is almost like a mirror of Gollum's and in the end he just fulfills a role that would have otherwise been uninteresting. As I've said, I think there is a great deal of subtlety in the physical acting, but making him seem just amoral is going against the purpose of the character. Tolkien created a swayed man in the midst of Rohan who everyone could see, but no one could stop because he was the the behest of the king. Clearly he was evil with no real intentions except serving his master, given that he enacted nefarious schemes that seemed to be traced to him extremely easily. Again, what would we gain from "masterful" subtlety with this particular character, especially when you've complained about not every character needing to be complex?

I think Tolkien's LOTR is very subtle in terms both how layered his sub-creation is, and how nuanced the thematic threads of the story are. People who claim that LOTR is simply about good and evil have essentially missed the point. The themes of death, the unhealthy yearning for deathlessness, the wraithifying consequences of a lust for temporal power, and despair, seem to pass them by. He also sketches the structure of the story in a subtle manner - not being a slave to the idea that everything, and everyone, must be neatly connected in terms of both narrative or characterization.

However, there is certainly some clarity from Tolkien on who some of the bad guys are. Wormtongue is obviously not a name for an angel, I will admit that. There is nothing too subtle in this character, not even in the books.

However, for some reason, PJ feels that he needs to take these cues, and then amplify them beyond necessity. Wormtongue is called Wormtongue in the book, but he is not described as being hideously pale with open wounds, wearing Goth black clothes with lace trim, having no eyebrows, and feeding lines to an almost dead, zombified Theoden. Add the foreboding music to that, and you have Tolkien's text pumped full of steroids.

So no, this was not one of Tolkien's most subtly drawn characters. But that doesn't excuse PJ from amping that aspect up to the 11th degree. If anything, he should have toned it down a bit. A visual medium, like film, requires careful choices in terms of visual and aural cues, and PJ doesn't seem too interested in that.

I do think that Wormtongue is overly sinister looking. A person in the position he's in would need to look a bit more trustworthy; no one would put their faith in someone that obviously snaky. I know you're not supposed to judge a book by its cover, but come on...!! However, this didn't really bother me while watching. What did bother me was that Theoden looked like the living dead, the implication being that this was because he was under a magical spell. What I had expected from reading the book is that Theoden's problem was more psychological than magical; he had listened to Wormtongue's poisonous words telling him that he was old and out of it for so ling that he had come to believe it. As the saying goes, you don't quit doing things because you get old; you get old because you quit doing things...or words to that effect. Since PJ said he didn't like obvious wizardry, I was surprised by his take on this scene. When I read it, it seemed to me that Gandalf didn't break a literal spell, but rather a metaphorical one. So this scene isn't what I expected; I would have liked a more subtle approach, but I think it was effective anyway.

As for the music - yeah, maybe it's a bit OTT, but it worked for me. I guess I have bad taste."The question isn't where, Constable, but when." - Inspector Spacetime

young audience. Well in 2001 (Bomby was 51) In 2002 (Bomby was 52) In 2003 (Bomby was 53)

Yet while watching a SuperDuper Adaption of my Favorite books that I had waited 44 years for?

Bomby was 17, then 18, then 19 All over Again... And..for that TIME. transporation Back There Again...Bomby&Goldberry got to be kids Once more. For that Bomby can't " THANG them very Bunch?" to of All of PJ&Co enough.

but when I read that "Captain Obvious" line a few days ago, I nearly burst. Well played.

More on topic, this is a fantastic shot. Theoden looks like such a broken and beaten person with nothing left but to heed "the words of a snake." I also can't get over the fact that Grima (as well as Mr. Dourif) looks like he gets so much joy out of this, like a kid playing with a new lego set. FOTR 10th Anniversary Music Video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33xJU3AIwsg

"You do not let your eyes see nor your ears hear, and that which is outside your daily life is not of account to you. Ah, it is the fault of our science that it wants to explain all; and if it explain not, then it says there is nothing to explain."