smelliebear wrote:so is the problem with how social justice is performed by different people? like the way a certain sort of feminist (over educated well off white able bodies etc...) is constantly speaking about their guilt over marriage versus I dunno a TERF who cyber stalks and harasses other women? or is it more about how intersectionality is 'fine' in theory but in practice falls apart completely

Here's an interesting constellation of problems I noticed:

Take the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a topic of special relevance to you.

You too should have noticed, a lot of the leftist and social justice folks are very heavily Pro-Palestinian, because they are considered the underdog suffering oppression. by the white man. But if you read closely, their most passionate Pro-Palestinian speeches often creep into what sounds eerily Anti-Israelian and even antisemitic. While at the same time they would consider themselves the biggest enemies of neo-nazis. But because they see that a given, they feel entitled to walk an argumentation and tonality that would otherwise be forbidden. While there can be a difference between critisizing the political State of Israel or the people, it is quite... unsettling... how their passionate rhetoric is not always quite so clear in its growing sentiments of unspecifiable negativity they are getting used to when talking Jews.

What confuses matters even more: purely from a gender and women rights perspective, Israel is a shining beacon in the middle east compared. Palestina is among the last places on earth you'd like to be a woman. And the guys doing the worst there, are the types that are interested the least in peaceful negotiation.

So it is no surprise that at the same time quite some SJWs are outspoken against Islam and black "hoodmen", in how women are treated, and given the heat of moment, mount into racist remarks and perpetuation of prejudice, in surreptitious ways they seem blind to themselves, because another issue takes precedence to them, in a conflict of interests, while being often zealous in painting you a racist for every little off-hand joke, maybe in an attempt to reassure themselves that they are not.

In general, the more convinced you are about your good, the blinder you become to your evil. Because evil likes to hide in the greatest causes for good; that's where it can act safest and freely behind the scenes. That's why as much unjustifiable wrong has been done in the name of social justice as has been done in any other name. That's why nothing can be save of utmost inquiry and critique at all times, especially on the biggest names of the good and brave most actively and mercilessly critiquing others the loudest in public.

Nein, nein, nein! Do not be so little! When I say answer it, I mean respond to it, to Them.

Also, you should realize best on that issue how lop-sided journalism can be.Many Journalists feel a moral obligation to advocate those in need, as well as they can.But there are many needs, and social justice is a complicated conglomerate of special interests.

So they should try best to maintain an objective balance in reports,or at least balance each other out in a broader political spectrum, because:

It is hardly possible to criticize Israel without contributing to resentments, fears and prejudice against Jews in society.It is hardly possible to criticize Islam without contributing to resentments, fears and prejudice against Arabs in society.It is hardly possible to criticize rap culture and gang crime without contributing to resentments, fears and prejudice against Blacks in society.

... and ...

It is hardly possible to criticize violence and sexism in games without contributing to resentments, fears and prejudice against Nerds in society.

Boys that are used to getting bullied by Joe, and made fun of by Jane,mistrusted by grown-ups, outcasts of the norm, and whose only little joy is their own special culture of fantastic escapism.

A people that find their culture today invaded and appropriated by mainstream,and thus targeted by groups that hate mainstream and the founders of this culture.

Dorks that liked to play Doom, and were stigmatized the next school shooter.Dorks that like DeadOrAlive, and are stigmatized the next potential rapist.Dorks that did little but seek refuge in their boys clubs, where they understand each other and deal with it.

But somehow constantly find themselves in the crossfires and epicenters of culture wars, everyone trying to "save" the future of humankind in the fantasy of some shy kid in the corner.

The backlash against Social Justice is a form of social justice. And the reason SJ has handled it so badly and spurred on the fires is because it did not recognize itself in the mirror, but did what a cat does in front of it. SJWs see in nerd culture a mainstream contribution to their misery, nerds see in SJ culture the same misery they've come to expect from the mainstream they were ostracized from, together with the high-five-football-dudebro coming in, and both invaders fighting it out on their turf of ashes. Popcorn pandemonium perfect.

Nein, nein, nein! Do not be so little! When I say answer it, I mean respond to it, to Them.

I sure wish there were more social justice in the world, as much as I wish there were less corruption in people. I am rarely convinced someone's particular notion of justice would make for a better world -- the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and one such hell we're living right now -- but I do hope we never stop dreaming about and working towards a better and fairer world. It's interesting how many very different backrounds there can be to thinking that same goal; are they oppositions or dependencies? Would be nice if this idea could somehow survive all these cynical twitter tug of wars that don't really help anything.

Nein, nein, nein! Do not be so little! When I say answer it, I mean respond to it, to Them.

So, I came across that link lately. Hey, it looks like an article on a wiki, so it must be true and good. It's fascinating how every group sets up their own knowledge base to refer to as fact backing them up.

Here it describes the tone-argument. when the call to civil behaviour supposedly distracts from objective argumentation... hrrm, now that's... creative. Also curious, as in other parts attitude is supposed to matter more than facts. I guess, whatever happens to float your boat. Don't let 'em hold you back. But since the first seems to be a more popular trend right now, let's roll with that:

There are dark clouds in the sky, therefore I punch you in the face.Some kid stole an apple out of my store, that's illegal, therefore I shoot him down.That person was sort of dumb the other day, therefore I tell all of my 100000 twitter followers about it.

The first part is objectively true. Yet the follow up conclusion is wrong. which makes it wrong as a whole. It is a compulsive insistence in the truth of the first part, that leads to irrational judgement on the second. That means, your attitude becomes a bigger problem than whatever problem you meant to address, it becomes the most relevant problem to discuss now. and whatever truth was in the first place becomes neigh irrelevant, whatever argument building on your statement leads wrong in the end. There is a measure in law, that is proportional response. And you are held accountable to that.

Capitalism is problematic. true. But let's compare a community of flower hippies on one hand, and a Soviet Gulag on the other, and call this a difference in attitude and tone, referencing the same objective criteria, yet leading to different conclusions, giving birth to entire systems of argumentation that in the end are much more problematic, compared to whatever flaws capitalism had in the first place. Attitude matters. greatly. it can well mean the difference of good or evil. the purpose for which your truth is used. and you will find every kind of attitude on every side of politics. Which is why you must be no less vigilant in your watch on yourself as on any other. And if more people had a good attitude, capitalism could be good enough. and as long as not enough people have a good attitude, socialism is no solution either, to the abuse of a people by an elite. And the good attitude begins with you. But there are countless reasons to skip on questions of attitude. which indeed is the root problem to it all, with which you stand or fall. Ultimately, the success in maintaining an approachable attitude against the odds is the measure of what your truth is worth.

Every system has a true flaw. But that you understand the flaws of one system, doesn't make your idea of another system right. Every true theory has a range of validity / scope of application, outside of which it becomes objectively wrong. That is also true of the "tone fallacy", which itself is being misused so much it's become a fallacy in its own.

All the more problematic when the "truth" presented is only half the story, supposed to force a conclusion and justify bad attitude. talk about dishonest trolls. This whole "Rational"-Wiki site gives interesting insight into the workings of a certain type of mind. But it is hopelessly depressing. Heavy fortification of Save Spaces for sure, with no way out...

I can't say I'm quite up to highest standards of civilization myself. made some mistakes.But fuck me if I ever try to "intellectualize" my shortcomings this thoroughly into merit.

Nein, nein, nein! Do not be so little! When I say answer it, I mean respond to it, to Them.

It is very frustrating. There are so many occasions in which bringing up the tone argument is right.

When the police shoots up random black kids, you make sure you speak loud enough than can be ignored, that this is fucking bullshit, as well as you stay persistent in your insistence that the legal system needs renovation in general. When a Donald Trump goes on his usual tirades on national tv, you make sure you throw all the ridicule on him you can think of. When mobs are terrorizing refugee camps, you go out there and kick racist ass. When you listen to the likes of them, you understand what the importance of good attitude is meant for. beating it into their heads.

But who needs good sense of application. that's for nobodies and losers. just fire it up whenever you feel like, baby. they gotta learn. hammer it home. here, take my megaphone. you look angry enough about whatever to be worthy of representation.

In these crazy times of internets, so many freaking idiots run around, that somehow manage to turn anything sour, systematically, referring to it just so to live out any impulsive hysteria on largest scale possible, and make themselves shine in the lime light, simply justified by being on the right side, which would make it alright in the grand scheme of things. Though it does nothing but ruin some good ideas at the core. Because hardly anyone close has the fucking balls to touch some of the worst and fiercest social predators truly I've ever come across in my life, camouflaging in it, in these save spaces, twisting any rationality of good into blanket evil, wrapped in neigh impenetrable layers of compassion, loyalty and guilt, abused to a point it becomes entirely meaningless really. But hey, if not taking care of it yourself, you may as well ward off anyone who could. And why not even support it, this damsel in distress, that buys you a clear conscience, like an absolution by the pope. You can't think right, you can't act right, but at least you're quick to retweet wrong, brave warrior, in your narratives.

oh, now would you look at that. I forgot about my tone as well. Sorry. But what do I know anyway, I'm just one of those dishonest trolls shitting down the ladder. I'm drunk. with power. and afraid to slip down.

Nein, nein, nein! Do not be so little! When I say answer it, I mean respond to it, to Them.

Anyways. one of the most convenient reasons to lose good attitude is that it's so damn entertaining.that's what it is all about, isn't it. this dramatic horror game. for lost souls in search of meaning.of course, the stakes are dangerously high, that's the backround story, the importance of whyyou sit in your chair. you gotta take care, you have to manage world affairs.

Nein, nein, nein! Do not be so little! When I say answer it, I mean respond to it, to Them.

Thing is tho, too often than I am comfortable to admit, I felt GamerGate Girls are the best marriage material. with children. I never once in my life considered subjugating myself to such a ritual. However, GG is perfectly fit for sexual selection. Reading them makes me want to breed with them.

Nein, nein, nein! Do not be so little! When I say answer it, I mean respond to it, to Them.

All that said, I've been to a couple indie conventions over the past two years, organized by people that likely have a penchant for SJ. It was good times, they put in the effort to try make it worthwhile, nice and cool. In these conditions I experienced there, I didn't feel there was much worth disagreeing with. I didn't care for whatever intellectual backround of it, and didn't feel the need to actually discuss it one way or another. Sometimes my inner eye would go *rolleye* about something, but whatever. I liked it better than those start-up business podiums I've been to, which would often make me want throw beer cans at them.

I've also been to Beat'EmUp tourney events. What I saw was one of the most inclusive and relaxed environments I've ever been to. from frail to fat, asian or black, a couple girls playing well there, too. I saw a people that support each other, that took care of each other. None of them has ever been into Social Justice. They are into StreetFighter. Those folks are "hardcore competitive gamers", and sometimes might call you a pussy online, of some colour or another, while their sexist character punches the hell outta your stupid face.

So yeah, life is weird like that, two sides of the coin and stuff. It's moments like these I'm not so sure the internet is a progress to humanity. Or that humanity is a far cry from being ready for it. And it's why I'm just not into wasting my energy with pushes or push-backs or whatever. I feel more like try doing stuff that has a lasting worth. and just sometimes throw a little shit around in a corner that's not really mean much anything.

Nein, nein, nein! Do not be so little! When I say answer it, I mean respond to it, to Them.