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I'm in the process of deciding between a Feurich or Hailun 178cm grand piano. Unfortunately they are both sold by different dealers in two dissimilar locations, making it impossible to compare them tonally and technically. If anyone has played, or is familiar with, both pianos, I would greatly appreciate their opinion as to the differences in the tone quality and touch of the two instruments. Also which, inyour opinion is the better quality instrument?

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 21717
Loc: New York City

I wouldn't say "impossible to compare" but clearly more difficult.Perhaps you can find a way to get a decent recording of each to try and help you decide or maybe go back again and try each for an extended period of time with the same pieces?

Do they sound/feel quite similar to you or is it more that you are having a difficult time remembering the sound/touch?

Aren't they the same thing? The Hailun was marketed in Europe as Wendl & Lung. But now Feurich. Same piano I thought. Hailun definitely makes the Feurich 178. Unless you are talking about a (much more expensive) German Feurich?

If they are the same price, and you like them equally, I would definitely get the Feurich. There is much more prestige in the name and supposidly the Feurich has extra prep done in Germany. Also, I love the open music rack as I can hear the piano much better that way.

The Feurich 178 is based on the Hailun design, but the Feurich has specific features that set it apart from the Hailun. The Feurich design seeks to develop a specific European tone through components and the prep process, which is an integral part of the brand.

The Feurich design seeks to develop a specific European tone through components and the prep process, which is an integral part of the brand.

Gee Eric!

It's nice of you to resist the opportunity to hawk your wares here but hardly necessary in this case. Anyone who reads here regularly knows that's not your MO, and the question calls for specifics beyond what Feurich "seeks" to do.

If there are component differences that affect tone production, why not state what they are? And even if it's more a matter of prep than build, aren't you the guy who preps them for the US market?

"European tone" always sounds nice as a catchphrase, but a reveiw of the tone of European pianos proves that the phrase can mean many different and sometimes opposite things.

I'd like to know the differences too. Living in the UK there are no Hailun branded pianos here. Just the Wendl & Lung which is now branded Feurich. I can find decent online demos of the Hailun but there is almost nothing in relation to the Feurich. I'm engaged in a tentative search for an acoustic after many many years of digitals and a brief and disappointing ownership experience with a Yamaha GC1. Might go upright, might go grand, not sure yet. But the Feurich 161 or 178 would high on my list. So as much information as possible would be gratefully received!

Here is a Youtube video of a British pianist Paul Barton - now living in Thailand - playing a Wendl & Lung (now Feurich) 178. There are several videos of him available - and also him playing a Wendl & Lung 122 upright.

He recently purchased a Feurich 218 for himself, and look on Youtube for him playing that instrument as well. I believe he also purchased a 122 upright for his teaching studio as well. I have corresponded with him and he loves both instruments.

I'm in the process of deciding between a Feurich or Hailun 178cm grand piano. Unfortunately they are both sold by different dealers in two dissimilar locations, making it impossible to compare them tonally and technically. If anyone has played, or is familiar with, both pianos, I would greatly appreciate their opinion as to the differences in the tone quality and touch of the two instruments. Also which, inyour opinion is the better quality instrument?

I would give a great deal of weight to the quality of the dealer. In this case, especially because I am friends with the Feurich dealer and know how much prep they give their instruments, I say go with the Feurich, hands down.

The quality of a dealer (whatever that means) has no bearing on the quality of a piano unless they modify the pianoâ€™s structure or components. Most pianos can be shipped from the factory to your house quality intact, uncrated, and prepped on site, by-passing the dealer completely, which, considering the consumer has one less mouth to feed and listen to, is a plus.

Hailun produces stencil pianos for various folks under various business arangements, the 178â€™s and smaller mostly with a laminated soundboard, in my opinion mediocre for the most part with varying functionality as a musical instrument, and, as evident from the recording, not a lot to love.

The quality of a dealer (whatever that means) has no bearing on the quality of a piano unless they modify the pianoâ€™s structure or components. Most pianos can be shipped from the factory to your house quality intact, uncrated, and prepped on site, by-passing the dealer completely, which, considering the consumer has one less mouth to feed and listen to, is a plus.

Hailun produces stencil pianos for various folks under various business arangements, the 178â€™s and smaller mostly with a laminated soundboard, in my opinion mediocre for the most part with varying functionality as a musical instrument, and, as evident from the recording, not a lot to love.

Sure a piano can be drop-shipped directly to the home. It doesn't cut out the dealer, however. The builders don't sell to consumers directly. Certainly, you can select a piano at the factory, but then, the sale will be conducted through an authorized dealer.

SteveHere is a Youtube video of a British pianist Paul Barton - now living in Thailand - playing a Wendl & Lung (now Feurich) 178. There are several videos of him available - and also him playing a Wendl & Lung 122 upright.

I've never found a satisfactory smiley for eye-rolling. I don't think it is any more serious than that.

If there once was (perhaps through the Wendl & Lung European distribution), I don't think there is any prep in Germany for Hailun made Feurichs. Hailun USA has made several different hammer choices and several different factory prep routines as the pianos are being refined. Feurich is probably making their own choices in this regard. Those are not qualitative in terms of materials or manufacturing level, but subjective due to the manufacturer's goals as Eric said. Small changes can make them more or less alike, but I believe they have the same scale design.

Currently, Hailun specs German Abel hammers in all of the N.American grands. Not long ago, they had used a clone of a certain Renner hammer on the 178 and smaller, and before that, something else. Outside of N.America, you have a different distributor driving the bus.

For perspective, I understand there are scale design differences in the Hailun built Cunningham models. Without dragging Rich into the room, the differences including and beyond the scale design are likewise quality neutral but do affect the subjective performance evaluations to win a customer's selection. Likewise, the dealer experience matters both for things that affect quality and those that affect relationships.

If the customer is a curmudgeon, then they might not put much value on the dealer experience, good or bad. There is a solution for that, too...buy a boxed unit, hire your own tech, etc.

These are examples of modern brand differentiation in the complex arrangement of global piano manufacturing. I think it is fair to call them stencils in the manufacturing sense of the word, however the other connotation of stencil piano has meant cheap. Hailun and their competing partner brands (oxymoron, I know) are squarely targeted at the middle (and sometimes higher), not the bottom.

For those who wish, I have included a link to photos and a video (a bad one unfortunately) of the new Cunningham 5'4". Notice the different plate design and bridge placement, particularly at the break.

For anyone not already following along, I've pointed out a couple of visible areas where you can see differences in scale design. While you cannot clearly see the Cunningham bridge, you can see that the shape of the string termination in the tenor has a different shape, you can see plate differences beyond the obvious cosmetics. You can see changes in the duplex scaling, too.The Hailun pictured (top) is a model HG 161 in polished walnut, hence no "birdseye" inner rim.

The quality of a dealer (whatever that means) has no bearing on the quality of a piano unless they modify the pianoâ€™s structure or components.

First price award for the most ignorant statement ever made.

Norbert

Well what do you expect from the infamous Hailun house troll.At least for once he forgot to fling his usual "plywood" around when talking about Hailun's soundboards. Now apparently they are designated as "stencil" pianos in his hateful and Hailun loathing mind.

Woops, I'm getting pulled over but I don't think I'm getting a ticket this time!

I don't want to say anything can remotely be considered criticizing Hailun. We're competitors to some degree but we also have a shared interest in keeping manufacturing costs down. Besides, they make a fine piano that many people like and have purchased.

Yes, the Feurich 178 is based on the standard Hailun 178 manufacturer offering. We specify some different components (yawn), we have our own staffer from Vienna doing final QC on each Feurich (yawn yawn), and there is me supervising the brand image and identity here (what's on TV...).

To really understand the differences, one must try both. Not so easy with current Feurich availability I know. What we (Ernest Bittner and his team in Vienna and Julius Feurich and me) are trying to do is offer a piano with subtle, more "European" differences. This is coloring that cannot be properly described in a list of components.

The design is of course important, the prep very much so and the dealer is critical. If the nature of the brand is going to come out, all three components (maker, prep, dealer) must do their complete part.

To those who haven't experienced the difference a really great dealer can make, I'm sorry for you.

The quality of a dealer (whatever that means) has no bearing on the quality of a piano unless they modify the pianoâ€™s structure or components.

First price award for the most ignorant statement ever made.

Norbert

Well what do you expect from the infamous Hailun house troll.At least for once he forgot to fling his usual "plywood" around when talking about Hailun's soundboards. Now apparently they are designated as "stencil" pianos in his hateful and Hailun loathing mind.

Different designs by some makers producing pianos under different names, i.e. "stencils" is IMHO far less confusing/controversial than those producing whole series of pianos with entirely different quality under same name.

Strange discussion. We are talking about low budget pianos, right? How come that so many people are interested in the origin of parts or the details of production? Go trying and play a Feurich or Hailun or whatever, and if you like it: fine, get one.

ItÂ´s strange that people want to know in detail which components are used in a specific piano and itÂ´s strange as well that many manufacturer donÂ´t want to give these information to the public. Bechstein for example was involved in a discussion in a German piano forum as to the origin of the components used in Bechstein pianos. They made a statement that they donÂ´t publish these information because that can change over time and furthermore Bechstein does not define its quality by the quality of the component supplier but the other way round: the component supplier has to deliver the quality that Bechstein expects. What a cool statement!

While I can understand somehow that people want to know details of their high end piano itÂ´s hard to understand why people insist in gathering so many details of their low budget piano. And donÂ´t get me wrong by using the term low budget: I sell Feurich and I love them

I miss the Wendl & Lung. Yes, I know, nee Feurich. I just liked the name. Sort of properly British. Less Teutonic. Reminded me of Knight and Kemble. Alas.

That's funny, because to be Wendl & Lung sounds every bit as Germanic as Feurich. Certainly doesn't sound British to me. And yes, I do speak fluent German.

Not to me. I always thought that spoken German sounded like a throat desease, rather than a language, anyway. At least in the USA, I've never heard it pronounced fVendel und Luung.

Well, I'm sure you're not pronouncing Feurich anything like a German speaker would either. "Not to me" doesn't even enter into it if you have no knowledge of German. I'll add that that was a pretty insulting way to speak about a language, Marty. Perhaps you're not as pure as the driven snow after all. Any language can be made beautiful or ugly. There is plenty of beautiful German. I've heard exquisite German spoken in films and plays.

In the meantime, here is another photo I have in my laptop that shows the bridge placement clearer. (I know it still isn't great). Compare the lower side of the treble bridge in particular. That is very different. It lacks what many have nicknamed "the hockey stick" bridge in favor of a longer and thinner string at this point.

Check out this link. You can type the text (deactivate the translate checkbox) and a speaker will pronounce it on German, English or whatever you want. Lot of fun! BTW, most of my customers thought that Wendl is the Austrian and Lung the Chinese

In English speaking countries, how is Wendl & Lung pronounced? That is what ando is all bent out of shape about. Not me!

Not bent out of shape, Marty, it's just that your comments about English pronunciation are simply irrelevant. There is anglicised pronunciation of most foreign names, but that doesn't change the fact that Wendl & Lung is of Germanic origin, hence your belief in its innate Englishness being your own fantasy. You saying "not to me" doesn't factor into it.

In English speaking countries, how is Wendl & Lung pronounced? That is what ando is all bent out of shape about. Not me!

Not bent out of shape, Marty, it's just that your comments about English pronunciation are simply irrelevant. There is anglicised pronunciation of most foreign names, but that doesn't change the fact that Wendl & Lung is of Germanic origin, hence your belief in its innate Englishness being your own fantasy. You saying "not to me" doesn't factor into it.

Yes, IT DOES!

My only experience with the piano is in the United States of America and not in Germany, or Austria, as translated by a Chinese manufacturer. What I hear when I see the name is what I heard from the sales staff at PianoForte in Chicago and it certainly was not Germanic in sound. Period.

IT DOES FACTOR INTO IT - THAT IS THE POINT

Shouting is necessary to penetrate very thick substances.

When I started a thread about members treating each other with civility and manners, your behavior is exactly one of the the rude and annoying practices I mentioned. Apparently the only way to get through your self-assumed superiority and judgement is to decend to the level of the responses which I was trying to diminish.

I can only assume that you are on the "let's get Marty" tirade is because you recognize in yourself what I was attempting to avert. Or, maybe you are totally clueless.

Many of the regulars and pros here know Eric well. he has forgotten more than many of us know, and he is a true gentleman. That is not solely my opinion, but that of every single person he and I know in common.

In English speaking countries, how is Wendl & Lung pronounced? That is what ando is all bent out of shape about. Not me!

Not bent out of shape, Marty, it's just that your comments about English pronunciation are simply irrelevant. There is anglicised pronunciation of most foreign names, but that doesn't change the fact that Wendl & Lung is of Germanic origin, hence your belief in its innate Englishness being your own fantasy. You saying "not to me" doesn't factor into it.

Yes, IT DOES!

My only experience with the piano is in the United States of America and not in Germany, or Austria, as translated by a Chinese manufacturer. What I hear when I see the name is what I heard from the sales staff at PianoForte in Chicago and it certainly was not Germanic in sound. Period.

It's very clear from the spelling. "Wendl" or "Lung" looks English to you?

Ok, so you want it to be a matter of opinion? Fine, I can accept that. But if I came to you and said, "I love the good old-fashioned American sound of 'Ying Tang's BBQ dumplings', I'd have to expect my opinion to be challenged by you - regardless of how much I insist that it sounds American to me.

Quote:

IT DOES FACTOR INTO IT - THAT IS THE POINT

Shouting is necessary to penetrate very thick substances.

When I started a thread about members treating each other with civility and manners, your behavior is exactly one of the the rude and annoying practices I mentioned. Apparently the only way to get through your self-assumed superiority and judgement is to decend to the level of the responses which I was trying to diminish.

Actually that's just hypocritical. You are doing what you claim to be unacceptable.

But you do amuse me, Marty. Your need to have the last word in every situation. In another thread you're disputing facts with people with qualifications in air-conditioning, but it doesn't stop you from arguing in your own inimitable way "but for me it works this way..." In this thread it's the same, you are using ignorance of German language as a defence. "For me it's English..." It's the same situation.

Quote:

I can only assume that you are on the "let's get Marty" tirade is because you recognize in yourself what I was attempting to avert. Or, maybe you are totally clueless.

I could handle your rantings if you weren't constantly commenting on how other people should behave. Speaking as though you are above all that, yet descending into it anyway - but decrying how you were driven to it by savage members bent on defaming you. You are not the embodiment of the ideals you espouse in your "let's be lovely to one another thread". It's becoming a problem on this forum. How can I put this delicately for you? People are talking about you, Marty. I honestly don't believe you can stop yourself. You are a posting machine. (550+ posts in 3 months). Just as you like to have your opinions, you have to let others have theirs too. Let's just see if you can leave this post alone, shall we?

I'm sorry if I offended you or you took it that way. I was doing nothing more than asking about the way that Wendl & Lung was pronounced. Nothing more.

You have my full respect and I thought that if anyone knew it would be you!

I just commented that I am saddened by the demise of the name as I had thought of it as a rather elegant moniker. Nothing more. Since my experience with the brand was only through a Chicago dealership, mine was a very "English" pronounciation. It had nothing to do with Feurich as a brand. I liked the W&L's and I like the present Feurichs.

Many of the regulars and pros here know Eric well. he has forgotten more than many of us know, and he is a true gentleman. That is not solely my opinion, but that of every single person he and I know in common.

You are way off base here.

Steve, let me assure you that Eric has my full respect.

My comments were solely about ando harranguing at me because I understood the pronounciation Wendl & Lung as pronounced in English. I have never ever even considered it in German. I asked which was correct based on my familiarity with how it was pronounced.

All I can say is "boy was I pronouncing Feurich wrong!" Most Rock musicians are familiar with the brand Behringer, but I would bet that nearly 100% of them pronounce it with a "soft" G - like you would use in bridge, but technically it should be pronounced with a "hard" g like in gold. You know what? If I ever get a Feurich I think I will just go on pronouncing it "wrong" because that sounds right to me. That's the same thing I do with Behringer.

Many of the regulars and pros here know Eric well. he has forgotten more than many of us know, and he is a true gentleman. That is not solely my opinion, but that of every single person he and I know in common.

More specifically, Eric's work for Feurich including his writinga on his own web site and what he has written for Feurich's web site in the US, has been completely upfront in revealing the Ningbo connection. It's a far cry from Perzina's claims of European manufacture or W & L and Brodmann's claims to some vague European heritage. If I had any doubts about Feurich, it would be about its capability to manufacuture pianos in Germany, not whether it could possibly beat Hailun at its own game. Mother Hailun has had a lot of distributor problems in NA and can't seem to get out of its own way in establishing a dealer network with good coverage and minimum standards of service and prep. It's not the gold standard by any means.

Mother Hailun has had a lot of distributor problems in NA and can't seem to get out of its own way in establishing a dealer network with good coverage and minimum standards of service and prep. It's not the gold standard by any means.

At the expense of sounding defensive I don't know what is meant by that. Also don't know what the 'gold standard' is.

Small point but worth elaborating perhaps?

Does any of this have any impact on the quality and value of pianos on market?

You are so sensitive to quips from others, telling people how to behave, what's insulting. etc. but when you do it, it's just light-hearted. You are becoming a parody of yourself, Marty.

[Irony Alert: Readers with an irony deficiency may find the following unsuitable to their sensibilities.]

Dear Ando,

Welcome to Springfield!!! In 'M in M', PW has its very own Ned Flanders, and while I admit that our singular Minnesotan has been all over the PW forum like a rash in recent times, I would submit that we must be tolerant to diversity and accept his presence and contributions for what they often are--comedy. That said, I don't think Flanders doubled up as the local cop, so maybe the analogy is imperfect.

You'd think by now I wouldn't underestimate the insecurity of Hailun owners and dealers. But if agreeing with Sparky (isn't he a mensa candidate by now?) will make your Hailun piano sound better, I'm more than happy to help.

Norbert,

Quote:

Quote:The quality of a dealer (whatever that means) has no bearing on the quality of a piano unless they modify the pianoâ€™s structure or components.

First price award for the most ignorant statement ever made.

It would help if you qualify your statement (First price?). I know logical thought is not your forte, but you can at least give us a glimpse into your mental process, er, on second thought . . .

Turandot, you are forcing me to re-evaluate my whole web strategy. Who would have thought people would read the stuff!

Well, yeah. I'm a sucker for pulp fiction.

Since a member in Brazil has asked on this thread about a Feurich/Ningbo 218, maybe I could coax you to get even more specific (chuckle) about that one. I played a Haiun 218 and thought it had a lot to offer. A European piano savant who's been around the block and whom I trust thinks it has great promise, even as a concert instrument.

From reading your stuff, it seems that the Feurich version is true to the original -- Paullelo's strings and chosen hammers as well as his fourth pedal option. What does Feurich "seek" to accomplish beyond that?

Well, lets see. I think the screws in the music desk hinges could be changed to slot heads, in keeping with the European color we're looking for (!)

I have only seen 3 model 218's and my reaction was the same...there is really something there. However those were quick impressions of 3 different pianos in 3 different places. I have only in the past 2 weeks received one that I can work on and spend some time with. Piano Craft also got one so it will be interesting to see how these 2 pianos develop ... one in the hands of master craftsman with superior skills and the other in the hands of a non-value-adding dealer.

Now, THAT WAS A JOKE!!!! It was meant to humorously poke fun at the idea that all technicians and pianos are the same and a dealer cannot add value to a piano. The people at Piano Craft have superhuman skill, profound understanding and they make a mean cup of coffee. Their 218 will be, I'm sure, beautiful.

The real experiment would be to have 3 identical pianos in the same location, 2 prepared by different people and one in tuned but otherwise unprepared state. One would see the subtle differences that can be brought out of the same model and might encourage people to spend more maintaining their own pianos.

I am interested in the 4th pedal but have not brought any pianos in with that feature yet. We're still ramping up and I don't have the depth of resources to bring in instruments with these kinds of specific and possibly slow selling features (same with wood and white finish). However I'm happy to take an order!

The real experiment would be to have 3 identical pianos in the same location, 2 prepared by different people and one in tuned but otherwise unprepared state. One would see the subtle differences that can be brought out of the same model and might encourage people to spend more maintaining their own pianos.

We will regularly prepare the same model of piano side by side with a different final performance, Eric. Come to think of it, you might already know this.

We do this to show inexperienced customers what is possible in preparation and how any particular piano can be improved, changed, or customized in its performance.

It is this type of work that can add incredible value to any pianist with any musical discrimination. I accept that if you are offering spinets to total beginners this would be a waste of time.

Rich, you and I are brothers from another mother when it comes to the importance of prep. I know that has always been a hallmark of Cunningham. It would still be interesting to have 2 different techs each prepare examples of the same model.

It would be interesting, but practical is another story. The piano needs to be high enough quality to show the differences and then one has to ask if the effort (2 different techs preparing the same model) will pay off in sales. As I said, it would be interesting.

Since you no longer work for Bosendorfer and are apparently, for the moment, Feurichâ€™s stateside front man shouldnâ€™t you change your handle to Feric?

This seems like the first time I recall that a German piano maker not totally defunct has stenciled its name intact on a Chinese product. Will you be able to determine the Feurich â€śinspiredâ€ť Hailuns at a glance? A â€śCâ€ť above the i? Seriously, how many of the German made Feurichs, the real thing so to speak, were sold in the states last year? The year before that?

And isnâ€™t this enthusiasm for dealer prep just another marketing device for dealer profit? Like an extended warranty or an auto dealer coating the underside of new cars with a â€śsecret recipeâ€ť thatâ€™s marked up 400 per cent?

Why isnâ€™t post factory prep best done in the customers home as in the case of Steinway and Shigeru?

All this talk about techs prepping an instrument depends a lot on their work, as far as touch and tone, coinciding with a given customerâ€™s, whoever happens to walk in the door, er, dreams. Otherwise the â€śqualityâ€ť dealer has his work cut out convincing the customer what is good for them, which just happens to be what they have on their floor at the moment. Or as one dealer describes this process, â€śto show inexperienced customers what is possible in preparation and how any particular piano can be improved, changed, or customized in its performance . . .â€ť

Turandot,

This is probably old news but didnâ€™t Petrof join the Hailun distribution network?

Why isnâ€™t post factory prep best done in the customers home as in the case of Steinway and Shigeru?

Nobody said work in the home was not necessary Mike.

Tremendous prep. does not usually mean that a dealer can command more money for a certain piano (but sometimes it does). What it does mean is that the dealer will gain a reputation for having great pianos with the people that matter most - pianists.

It's yah-mah-ha with virtually no accent. Japanese is very lightly accented if at all. For example, we (incorrectly) pronounce the nightclub singing game: care-ee-OH-kee. In japanese it's: kah-reh-oh-keh with some speaker swallowing the second "a". The city destroyed at the end of war II is hi-roh-shi-mah not hee-row-SHEE-mah as it is pronounced here in the U.S.

Kurt

Kurt

_________________________
One who does what the Friend wants donewill never need a friend.

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 21717
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: Mike Carr

Why isnâ€™t post factory prep best done in the customers home as in the case of Steinway and Shigeru?

Because most pianos will not sound/play that good without a reasonable amount of prep and many buyers would not want to choose a piano based on how they hoped it would sound/play.

Shigerus and Steinways are not unprepped when they come from the factory and are also prepped by dealers(Steinway maybe less than some other makes or moe depending on the particular dealer). Shigeru offers additional in home prep by one of their master techs to improve the piano further and customize it more.

It seems like a lot of people on PW have said something to that effect lately. Ironically it also seems like it's been the kiss of death for civility in any thread in which it appears. Friends, please prove me wrong!

This childish taunting should be beneath all of you. You especially Rick, who keeps asking for civility. If Mike Carr's acerbity and pointed posting style are not your cup of tea, ignore him and keep mashing the "report" button as it suits you.

good day,

Kurt

_________________________
One who does what the Friend wants donewill never need a friend.

This childish taunting should be beneath all of you. You especially Rick, who keeps asking for civility. If Mike Carr's acerbity and pointed posting style are not your cup of tea, ignore him and keep mashing the "report" button as it suits you.

good day,

Kurt

Glad we can all have our say... and, you are probably right; I should not have joined in; but, to be honest, the tee-shirt thing did make me chuckle a little, and I saw no harm in it.

Mike Carr is well known for his fiery and flaming opinions and has no qualms about speaking his mindâ€¦ and, Iâ€™m quite sure he can take a joke.

Rick

_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

Ganging up on Mike to beat him up, is unlikely to get you where you expect; these things can have a way of backfiring. Going too far is a time-tested comedic technique, and I'm sure Mike can take a joke--- I'm just not sure I heard one.

I want one of those t-shirts--- but you can leave pianoloverus off, and I'd like to see some color, a v-neck collar, and an eye-catching graphic. Furiously typing fingers, and the flat-screen belching smoke and flames, Carr's face in profile with a devilish smile. Now, that's a t-shirt.

Of course, he's not exactly a household name, and it would take a tiresome amount of explaining anywhere except a Pianoworld convention (and I have never heard of such a thing, nor imagined one).

I am a regular lurker on the piano forum and I got something on my mind. Pianoloverus follows Norbert around from post to post like he is on a witch hunt. What in the heck is Norbert supposed to do when he relates stories from his own experience?? Is he supposed to never ever talk about his product lines or relate stories about them to avoid this dumb "ESP" crap from you? I wish there was a way for me to put you on ignore for your Norbert follow up posts because other than that, you are an interesting poster. I have read some really good stuff from you in the pianist corner.

Why isnâ€™t post factory prep best done in the customers home as in the case of Steinway and Shigeru?

Because most pianos will not sound/play that good without a reasonable amount of prep and many buyers would not want to choose a piano based on how they hoped it would sound/play.

Shigerus and Steinways are not unprepped when they come from the factory and are also prepped by dealers(Steinway maybe less than some other makes or moe depending on the particular dealer). Shigeru offers additional in home prep by one of their master techs to improve the piano further and customize it more.

I'm going to attempt to get this thread back on track which may prove to be as difficult as steering the Titanic around an iceberg, but her it goes....

In my town the Steinways at the local dearler are not well prepped. I believe it greatly reduces their sales. I used to live in a town where the Steinway dealer did a great job of prepping the instruments. The difference between what the two dealers have on their floor is stunning. That tells me that dealer prep is very important. Now if Feurich (and you should hear how I pronounced that in my head as I typed it) has a special specification for dealer prep that Hailun (another pronounciation in my head that would make Rich roll his eyes) doesn't have I could very well see that there would be a real difference between the two. Maybe I should just consider a Cunningham as it is much easier to pronounce and I know Rich does a great job of prepping his pianos.

I really understand the average piano buyers confusion about "prep". Here is one way to think about it:

1 All pianos would benefit from some degree of prep. Sometimes that prep is needed to make the keys work, sometimes it is needed to allow a piano to produce ear-melting levels of pianissimo. However every new piano benefits from some degree of prep, just like every home piano would benefit from work beyond a simple tuning. Where the point of diminishing returns is is a judgement call.

2. Prep costs somebody money, and nobody wants that money to come out of their pocket. It takes time by a trained professional - there is no way around it. The manufacturer, frankly, does as little as they can get away with and wants to pass the rest on to the dealer. The dealer would prefer to do as little as possible to get the piano sold, which, frankly, the dealer cannot be blamed for. To some dealers that idea of "as little as possible" means nothing, to some it means 10 hours.

3. If you can't hear or don't care about the difference, then prep has little value to you and you should seek out the lowest price. You will have lots of choices, so one shouldn't go on a forum and suggest that people who do value it are getting "ripped off".

If you can hear the difference and care about it, then you should seek out a brand and dealer that supports those values.

The problem is that unless you know what a piano should sound like (and few people really do) it is very hard to evaluate the condition of a piano and whether or not it needs prep or if it has had some. Therefore, trust in your manufacturer, dealer and technician is the substitute.

I don't know what Hailun does and don't really care. At Feurich our strategy is to prep each piano to ensure a particular sound and quality standard. Right now it's easy. If sales take off it will be more of a challenge, but we have a plan for that!

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Originally Posted By: BoseEric

The problem is that unless you know what a piano should sound like (and few people really do) it is very hard to evaluate the condition of a piano and whether or not it needs prep or if it has had some. Therefore, trust in your manufacturer, dealer and technician is the substitute.

(My bold)Exactly.

IMO unless one has played many different examples of the same make/model at many different dealers and is also a high level pianist or tech, it is extremely difficult to know about the quality of the prep. One might recognize fairly obvious problems but I think most buyers can only get a very general idea of the prep quality at best.

I think many pianists can judge that they "liked" a particular piano's touch or tone, but that might not even be related to how much prep work was done on. Very few would know if an action they like the feel of could be made even better.

This reminds me of a story I think I read in Franz Mohr's book. Some very famous pianist left a few paper notes on the piano in Steinway's basement about which notes he thought needed to be voiced so they did not stand out from the others. Mohr said the pianist missed many notes that needed this adjustment.

When posters write things like "They prepped my piano to the fullest" or "Every piano in the store was prepped to the nines", I think in most cases(including my own)a relevant question would be "How do you know?"

To give an example for perspective, Bosendorfer is known for their out-of-the-box quality. Ask any dealer, they will all have examples of when they unboxed a Bosendorfer and could put it on the floor without having to even tune it! Bosendorfer spends a great deal of time and, therefore, money ensuring this experience.

However, if a Bosendorfer staff technician was tasked with unboxing and preparing this same piano, he (or she, but unlikely in Austria) would spend a MINIMUM of 4 to 6 hours working on the piano. I know this because I not only saw it done many many times, it was my job for 5 years.

While at Yamaha I witnessed the delivery of CFIII's and S4's and S6's at Yamaha Artist Services in NYC, all arrived sounding TERRIFIC. Still the staff concert tech would spend a MINIMUM of 4 to 6 hours making it even better.

Now these pianos all were of high enough quality that this effort paid off in a result. The real challenge is finding the point of diminishing returns for both the piano and the customers budget. Easy to talk about, not so easy to do, especially in the current economic climate.

My own experience confirms that of Franz Mohr. Frequently the specific adjustments requested are the least of the problems a piano might have. That's not to say they weren't noticeable or important..they clearly were. But other needed adjustments weren't specified because the pianist didn't know how to describe it, or simply accepted that the problem with repeating, or the clunky feeling in the key was just a characteristic of that particular piano, rather than jack position or a damper upstop rail that needed attention.

unless you know what a piano should sound like (and few people really do)

Can you elaborate on this further? Are you saying there is an objective standard? If I say that, in general, I prefer the tone of Kawai over Yamaha, does that mean I'm a cloth-eared dolt for not preferring the tone of __________? (fill in your favorite piano make here)

Originally Posted By: BoseEric

At Feurich our strategy is to prep each piano to ensure a particular sound and quality standard.

This appears to contradict the previous statement. So I'm confused. (Unless you actually mean all other pianos should sound like Feurich!)

I'm talking about piano technology, not piano design. A pianos components need to be constructed and assembled in a particular way to get the best sound out of the design. This means, for example, the keys must be level and travel down a particular and consistent amount. The hammers must be shaped and mated to the strings. The strings must be level, the repetition springs must be adjusted correctly and on and on. These steps, collectively called regulation + voicing, but also called prep when done to a new piano, must be completed, theoretically, to bring out the tone and touch that the designers intended.

These steps are universal to all modern actions and understood to be common practice. It is the degree of finesse employed that can vary.

Before you decide you like Kawai over Yamaha, for example, make sure you are evaluating well prepared examples of each, so the Kawai is as Kawai as it can be, and the same for Yamaha.

We were recently alerted to this thread and welcome the passionate discussion- including Mr. Carrâ€™s friendship of our brand.

We would like to contribute some nicely recorded music to this conversation. Here are two pieces that hail from Austria. Eric Himy is performing The Forgotten Walse (Valse Oubliee No. 1) and then the Sonetto del Petrarca 123 by Franz Liszt. The piano: a Hailun Grand 218 - and a good example of a well-â€śpreppedâ€ť Hailun. The occasion: 200th Liszt Anniversary Concert @ the Landmark Center, St. Paul, MN.