Lucifer

In looking at Lucifer's supposed incarnation
in 3000bc, I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts at to what
physical personality we are speaking of?

And who would his Angel have been? I am wondering
who might have represented the Feminine Divine during this period
as well?

I have been thinking about the statement Tarjei
made a while back that Ahriman was Lucifers karma. I had never
heard of that before but it makes sense to me because I was holding
the idea that Ahriman was Lucifers fallen, (not understood as
Karma at that point) but thought it quite ignorant to say a think
like that outright or even to think it straight through. The
way Tarjei put it seems quite right to me in a way. Yet I have
to wonder that they are one and the same in the spiritual worlds
unless Ahriman, the karma of Lucifer, can actually seperate itself
from Lucifers soul/spirit/whateverthatis. I think what I need
is a something by Steiner to contemplate, regarding this particular
thought, if anyone knows where I can find this online or in a
book.

Dottie:I have been thinking about the statement Tarjei made a while
back that Ahriman was Lucifers karma.

Dottie

What I am trying to get at is this: was this
incarnation of Lucifer the only one that will happen in the manner
that was true of Christ? Does Steiner teach this anywhere?

In thinking of an offlist conversation, I
am wondering if anyone holds that Sophia was physically incarnated
at any point in our history? If not, does anyone think she may
physically incarnate in the future?

In looking at Lucifer's supposed incarnation
in 3000bc, I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts at to what
physical personality we are speaking of?

I don't know how much we have to go on here.
RS says some interesting things about the incarnation of Lucifer
in "The Ahrimanic Deception":

Why had the ancient pagan
wisdom, which is in many respects so wonderful, to experience
a new form, a transformation, through Judaism and Christianity?
This question inevitably arises.

The answer is supplied for
Initiation-wisdom through a very, very weighty fact, through
an event which took place far over in Asia at the beginning of
the third millennium of the pre-Christian era. Clairvoyant vision
finds in looking back that an incarnation of a supersensible
Being in a human being had taken place there, just as in the
Event of Golgotha an incarnation of the supersensible Christ
Being had taken place in the man Jesus of Nazareth. The incarnation
that took place at the beginning of the third millennium B.C
is extraordinarily difficult to follow up, even with the science
of seership, of initiation. It gave humanity something of immense
brilliance, having an incisive effect. What it gave to humanity,
in fact, was the primeval wisdom.

Viewed externally, one can
say that it was a wisdom penetrating deep into reality; cold,
based purely on ideas, permeated little by feeling. The actual
inner nature of this wisdom can be judged only by going back
to that incarnation which took place over in Asia at the beginning
of the third pre-Christian millennium. It is revealed to the
retrospective clairvoyant gaze that this was an actual human
incarnation of the Luciferic Power.

And this incarnation of Lucifer
in humanity, which in a certain way has been achieved, was the
origin of the widely extended ancient wisdom based on the Third
Post-Atlantean civilization.

There was still an after-effect,
even in Grecian times, of the widespread cultural impulse that
was derived from this Asiatic, Luciferic human being. Luciferic
wisdom was of the utmost benefit to man in that epoch of evolution
- brilliant in a certain way, graduated according to the different
peoples and races among which it was spread. It was plainly recognizable
throughout the whole of Asia, then in the Egyptian civilization,
the Babylonian civilization and even in the culture of Greece.

All that was possible to the
humanity of that time in thought, in the realm of poetry, in
deeds, was in a certain way determined through the entry of this
Luciferic impulse into human civilization.

It would, of course, be extraordinarily
philistine to wish to say: That was an incarnation of Lucifer,
hence we must flee from it! Such philistinism could make one
also flee from the beauty and greatness that has come to mankind
from this Luciferic stream, for the fruits of Greek culture with
all their beauty, proceeded, as already said, from this stream
of evolution. The whole of Gnostic thought existing at the time
of the Mystery of Golgotha, an impressive wisdom shedding light
deep into cosmic realities - this whole Gnostic knowledge was
inspired by the impulse coming from Luciferic forces. One must
not say that Gnostic thought is therefore false; one is merely
characterizing it by saying that it is permeated by Luciferic
forces.

In looking at Lucifer's supposed incarnation
in 3000bc, I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts at to what
physical personality we are speaking of?

Tarjei:

I don't know how much we have to go on
here. RS says some interesting things about the incarnation of
Lucifer in "The Ahrimanic Deception":

Dear Tarjei,

Thanks for the reference below. I will check
out your site for the rest of the lecture.

Do you, or maybe someone else, know who the
great leaders of that period of time are said to have been? Who
do we have in charge of what is happening in the world at that
particular time? What was happening at the period of time? Does
anyone know who the great poets were of that period?

If we look at 3000 BC wasn't that about a
thousand years before Judaism began or was understood to take
root? I am thinking that this period of time found the peoples
looking to the 'Mother of All'. And, Lucifer kills Isis, so Steiner
says, and She was none other than the old Sophia. I call Her
old because Steiner says we have to look for the new Sophia.

I have to say the more I am contemplating
these things the more I am contemplating Steiner and his previous
incarnations. I do not mean to but somehow this question keeps
posing itself before my mind with each new word I read about
the past.

This Holy Spirit
is none other than the Lucifer-Spirit, resurrected now in higher,
purer glory  the Spirit of independent understanding, wisdom-inwoven.
The torch of the resurrected Lucifer, of the Lucifer now transformed
into the good, blazons the way for Christ. Lucifer is the bearer
of the Light  Christ is the Light! That is what the spiritual
scientific movement should be, that is implicit in it. Those
who know that the progress of mankind depends upon living apprehension
of the mighty Event of Golgotha are they who as the Masters
of Wisdom and of the Harmony of Feelings are united in
the great Guiding Lodge of mankind. The Holy Spirit
is the mighty Teacher of those we name the Masters of Wisdom
and of the Harmony of Feelings. It is through them that
his voice and his wisdom flow down to mankind in this or that
stream upon the earth.

My guess is that it is Adam-Kadmon, that after
1840 is moving in to the angelic position of the Holy Spirit,
with Sophia as Archangel, and Michael as Archai in the trinity
of the Holy Spirit.

About the ahrimanic beings:

Our own evolution, of course,
went on alongside all this, by way of preparation. If we go back
to the Moon state we must say: Here the Angeloi were human beings,
human beings, to be sure, with an appearance quite different
from ours, for there were quite different conditions upon the
ancient Moon. But alongside these Moon men, the Angeloi, we developed
in a pre-state of the Earth evolution, in a very advanced state,
so that we had to be taken into consideration by the Angeloi.
Especially during the descending phase of the Moon evolution
did we, at times, constitute a troublesome concern for the Angeloi.
The same, however, is the case with us in descending Earth evolution:
since the Earth evolution has entered its descending phases,
other beings make themselves felt. My dear friends, it is a significant,
an important result of spiritual-scientific research which is
to be taken very, very seriously, that we have already entered
the period of Earth evolution when certain beings make themselves
felt who upon Jupiter  the next state of Earth evolution
 will have advanced to the form of man, a different form
of man, to be sure, but which, nevertheless, may be compared
with the being of man. For we will be different beings on Jupiter.
These so-to-speak Jupiter men exist already no just as we existed
upon the Moon. They exist, of course not externally visible;
but I explained to you recently what it means to be externally
visible, and that man is also a supersensible being. Supersensibily
these beings are very decidedly present.
.....
The sub-human beings whose main character consists of an impulse
which strongly coincides with human willing, with the human power
of will, now appear from below, as it were, whereas the hosts
of forces cast down by Michael came from above; and while these
latter took possession of the human power of will; they unite
themselves with it and are beings produced by the realm of Ahriman.
Ahrimanic influences acted through those obscured consciousnesses.
Indeed, my dear friends, as long as one does not take into consideration
these forces as forces objectively existing in the world just
as one takes into consideration what today is called magnetism,
electricity, and so forth, one will not gain an insight into
that nature which, according to Goethe's prose Hymn to Nature,
comprises man. For nature, as it is conceived of in today's natural
science does not contain man, but merely the human physical self.

At the beginning of Earth
becoming we have to do with a downfall of Luciferic beings; today
we have a rise of Ahrimanic beings. The former beings influence
the Luciferic power of thought, the latter the human power of
will; we have to recognize the arrival of these latter begins
within the evolution of mankind. We have to realize that these
beings arrive and that we have to reckon with a conception of
nature which, to be sure, for the time being only includes man;
for the animal kingdom will only be included later on in the
Earth period. Upon the animal these beings have no influences
as yet. We shall not comprehend the human race without taking
these beings into consideration. And these beings, who are, as
it were, pushed from behind, for behind them there stands the
Ahrimanic power which endows them with their strong will power,
which pours into them their directive forces,  these beings
who as such are sub-human beings are controlled in their totality
by higher Ahrimanic spirits and thus contain something which
far surpasses their own nature and being. Therefore they show
something in their appearance which, if it takes the human being
captive, acts much more strongly, very much more strongly than
that which the weak human being can control today, if he does
not strengthen it through the spirit. What is the aim of this
host? Well, my dear friends, just as the hosts which Michael
has pushed down have aimed at human illumination, at human permeation
with reason, so these hosts aim at a certain permeation of human
willing. And what do they want? They burrow, as it were, in the
deepest stratum of consciousness in which the human being is
still asleep today in his waking state. Man does not notice how
these beings enter his soul and also his body. Here they suck
in, with their power of attraction, everything that has remained
Luciferic, that has not become Christ-permeated. This they can
reach: this they can take possession of.

So luciferic beings is higher developed beings which did not
reach their goal in the moon period and the ahrimanic beings
are spirits who have their development as man in the Jupiter
period. So Lucifer beings over us and ahrimanic beings below
us. And, of course, both parties being used by higher beings.

You know Kim you just blow me away. Seriously.
I can hardly take in all the great points you bring. I find that
I have to begin this study of Kims post in a sense before I can
even respond. So much comes up and it all feels like it is laying
right there on the periphery to be acknowledged. Truly. It's
like a dream come true.

I'm still working on the workbook and know
I will have to keep rereading it over and over again till I can
solidify those wonderful streams within me.

It's almost like it is too blinding to read
for some reason. Like this blinding light blinds till one really
approaches the mystery and then one becomes it in a way. I mean
its like I can not even look at it right now. Isn't that wierd?

Kim, there was supposedly a physical incarnation
of Lucifer. Is this correct? If we go back to the beginningness
of Lucifer who do we find?

Last night I found myself in front of, rather
early early this morning, the Jewish temple in my neighborhood.
It was lit from across the street and when I looked real close
I found all ancient Egyptian letters in a sense. I even saw Christ
on the cross within their circular glass bowl on the wall. AND
it was an Egyptian head dress of the U with feminine ends to
the end lines.

I guess I am surprised just because nobody
speaks of this connection. It was pretty amazing to be standing
there and seeing this connection so outright that nobody seems
to talk about.

Kim, there was supposedly a physical incarnation
of Lucifer. Is this correct? If we go back to the beginningness
of Lucifer who do we find?

~~~~Hi Dottie, I also have pondered sometimes
about who could this incarnation of Lucifer be attributed to.
Going three thousand years back before Christ, it cannot be researched
historically, because we are in the realm of pre-history. But
because if I remember right Steiner's indications it was supposed
to have taken place in the East, I was thinking China rather
than India. And we do have a book of ancient Chinese philosophy
that dates back millennia: The I Ching or book of changes.

This is what I found about it's history:

In Chinese literature four holy men are cited
as the authors of the Book of Changes, namely, Fu Hsi, King Wen,
the Duke of Chou, and Confucius. Fu Hsi is a legendary figure
representing the era of hunting and fishing and of the invention
of cooking. The fact that he is designated as the inventor of
the linear signs of the Book of Changes means that they have
been held to be of such antiquity that they antedate historical
memory...

Try Oslo these days. We haven't had as much
snow since 1967! The trains and trams get stuck, but they're
working around the clock to keep the roads open. I managed to
park my car at work today by diving the vehicle into a pile of
snow where the curb used to be. It must have been snowing for
two weeks straight. Remember that old sone, "As long as
you love me so, let it snow, let it snow, let it snow?

Anyway, nice for the kids that they get a
proper winter even in the city. And because we're dependent upon
hydro power, it's good for the electric bill which tripled a
year ago when there had been too little rain and snow.

The global warming doomsayers will have a
problem explaining this winter. I saw the thermometer showed
minus 14 degrees Celsius in New York, and the winter in the North-East
U.S. has been rough. So where's the global warming? If we get
colder climate during the next 20 years, what will they say?
(The earth's climate, especially temperatures, is controlled
by sun spots and cosmic solar rays.)

But because if I remember right Steiner's
indications it was supposed to have taken place in the East,
I was thinking China rather than India. And we do have a book
of ancient Chinese philosophy that dates back millennia: The
I Ching or book of changes.

AND the Quan Yin :))))))) Okay, sorry, I just
have found an old book on the I Ching of Quan Yin. She rides
the dragon and I really love her alot. The other person who was
so noted to have ridden the dragon was the founder of Zen. At
least this what Confuscious say;)

There has to be history on this. I mean we
are talking only one thousand years before Judaism. And I think
you are right when you come to China versus India.

Thanks for the hint. Now I can go check this
new stream and see how it meets up with Christianity and its
leaders.

Whew, lots of studying huh? Would be alot
easier to just sit in the spirit and get it that way I will say.
All this physical word stuff is just starting to really get on
my nerves:)

Kim, there was supposedly a physical incarnation
of Lucifer. Is this correct? If we go back to the beginningness
of Lucifer who do we find?

Bradford comments;

Lucifer Incarnation connected to TAOISM somewhere
in the vicinity of 3000 b.c. Christ Incarnation into Jesus, combined
efforts of Buddha and Zarathustra, in the middle between Lucifer
and Ahriman. Ahriman, ETA, incarnation vicinity of 3000 a.d.

All estimates come with a disclaimer. Connected
ideas such as major Divine Incarnations, with a more than human
influx coming within a numerically balanced outline of human
history asks a great deal of the Logic of the world. Does the
world make that much sense? Is this part of the hidden riddle
of history that escapes human understanding?

Acupuncture, the Silk Worm and writing are
mighty impulses. The flowering of Taoistic Western philosophy
out of the Greek culture and drawing off the mighty heritage
of Lucifer's download in ancient China bring schools of Initiates
and Doctors into the way of the world and the hidden wisdom humanity
seeks. Initiation into the higher worlds, via the ancient methods
where the Astral body is drawn out and the etheric body maintained
in a three day experience, is part of the ancient school of Lucifer
Wisdom.

The Immortal Imagination of Three Crosses
Crowning Golgotha's Hill and our current techno-cloning and Ahrimanic
preparations for a real magical influx from the Ahrimanic, reveal
a story that rises up from Soloviev and his "The Anti-Christ".

However the outstanding details of how the
human being is constructed in layers of triadic reality, Soul
development and Spiritual capacities bring the ancient development
of humanity along the western curve of historical Intellectual
Development, through the classics, Greek Thought, crowning vision
School of Athens and the call for human freedom and democracy.

Rome arrives and the Incarnation of Christ
stuns the Earth - enter ST. Paul- this becomes one of the most
enormous and detailed tales that describe a new form of Initation..

The new intiation, the one now being written,
how we began to confront Ahrimanic preparation in the 15th century
and began to meet Ahriman in his writing, particularly Nietzsche;
till we slowly see how the Conscious mysteries that Christ performed
in matter, become a stolen mirror image of how Ahriman intends
to shift human insight away from their higher spiritual consciousness
and inner structure of soul and spirit; to the cure all magic
of recycling matter, manipulating matter and generations by narrowing
the perspective our divinity and growing a dependency on the
doubt that there is a Spiritual World, or was, of any Divine
Beings. Gattica 101. Matrix 4.

Somehow the mighty pivotal image of Equal
weight on one side of the scale for the influx of Luciferic forces
which allows man to rise to the contemplation and particpation
of the gods through ancient initiation...balanced on the far
side; the other side of the scale by the Ahrimanic impulse which
sets the weight down into the atomic table and chromosome structure
of matter.

Standing in the middle of these two scales
is the supporting beam of Golgotha and Human freedom to understand
the Greatness of culture before Christ and betrayal of creation
and understanding the roots of matter, after Christ. Sounds very
logical doesn't it? What an incredible posing of themes, dynamics
and history Steiner has given us to consider. The Gods must be
Crazy!

However if we go back to find where Lucifer
might have brought down his infusion, we might head in the direction
of:

********" The Chinese way of thought
the 'The Tao' has been attributed to the 'Yellow' Emperor, Huang
Ti, who lived from 2698 to 2597 BC, but bio-archaeological evidence
suggests the early Elohim presence and the source for this philosophy
emanating through their intensive farming (inc. Kharsag millet)
in the Huanghe and Yangzie river basins before 6,500 BC. The
best known Chinese philosophers were Lao-Tse and Confucius, whose
teachings around 520 BC were based on 'The Tao' philosophy. The
relative stability in the cultural development of China over
7000 years, provides many clues and unique links to the Elohim.
'The Tao' is still a pillar of Chinese society.

(Words of Meng-Tzu): "Every man possesses
in himself the four principles of benevolence, justice, propriety
and wisdom, and that man has only to obey the law within himself
in order to be perfect". Plato emphasised soon afterwards
that good people do not need laws and bad people break them away.

(Words from I Ching - Book of Changes): "The
superior man, who sees not only things but the tao of things,
is rare. The tao of the universe is indeed kindness and wisdom;
but essentially tao is also beyond kindness and wisdom".

******* "THE tranquil landscape surrounding
a lonely stone pagoda some 50 miles from the city of Xian in
northwestern China has inspired visionaries and rulers. According
to legend, the founder of Taoism, Lao-tzu, wrote his classic
work, the Tao Te Ching, during a single night's stay in the nearby
hills before disappearing into the west. More than 1,000 years
later, in the seventh century A.D., a Tang emperor erected a
vast complex of Taoist temples on the site, calling them Lou
Guan Tai. And there, more recently, Martin Palmer, a British
Sinologist and theologian, claims to have discovered remains
of the earliest Christian church in China, dating back to the
seventh century."

****** "Taoism is a religion, a philosophy,
a way of living, and a way of spiritual, mental, and physical
development. It is an ancient Chinese philosophical tradition
whose origins extend back to 3000 B.C. The first written works
to promote the Taoist outlook appeared around 500 B.C. and were
attributed Lao Tzu (Tao Te Ching) and Chuang Tzu ("Inner
Chapters"). Thomas Merton, a Christian mystic, translated
an excellent collection of Chang Tzu's works called "The
Way of Chuang Tzu"

Taoism is a spontaneous, profound awareness
of the true nature of things, expressed in mystical and poetic
terms. According to this philosophy all manifestation, is part
of an inseparable whole, an interconnected organic unity which
arises from a deep, mysterious, and essentially unexplainable
source which is the Tao itself.

Taoism views the Universe as operating according
to a set of unchanging natural laws. As an inseparable part of
this unchanging whole, human beings are able to discover these
laws and become attuned to them. By aligning ourselves with these
principles we can gain a universal perspective and understanding
and which allows life to be lived in harmony with the Tao.

The symbol of Taoism is the "t'ai c'hi
t'u" also called the "symbol of the ultimate supreme".
It is better known as the yin-yang symbol. The symbol of two
fish-one dark with a light eye and one light with a dark eye-chasing
each other around in a circle is a metaphor for the active and
passive forces in the universe. There is the dark, passive, female
yin and the bright, active, male yang. These two forces swirl
about and through each other, changing constantly. One becomes
the other, and both always contain the seed of the other within
(i.e., as the eye of the fish in the image). "

"Huang-ti ruled the land
for one hundred years, but his life span was much greater: some
sources suggest that he lived for three hundred years. Where
he spent the rest of his days, and what activities he was engaged
in is open to speculation. There are Tao sources who state unambiguously
that after one hundred years of his "rule" Huang- ti
returned to his home star, "ascended the heavens, and became
the ruler of the Great Infinite, again turning into the star
Syuan Yuan." The same star that his "tripods"
had pointed at. An ancient Chinese drawing of the Syuan Yuan
constellation has been identified by modern astronomers as that
of the Leo constellation. Its brightest star is (Alpha Leo),
Regulus."

I think I have heard that the Krisna litterature and the Law
of Manu if from about the same time.

Kim

A little piece of RS:

You can already gather from
these external facts something that I beg you to bear in mind,
namely, that it was essential in humanity's evolution to confront
the ancient heathen element and its wisdom with the Jewish element
out of which Christianity evolved partially, at all events. The
primeval heathen or pagan wisdom in its totality was not destined
to have the sole influence on the further evolution of mankind.
And now the question must arise: Why had the ancient pagan wisdom,
which is in many respects so wonderful, to experience a new form,
a transformation, through Judaism and Christianity? This question
inevitably arises.

The answer is supplied for Initiation-wisdom through a very,
very weighty fact, through an event which took place far over
in Asia at the beginning of the third millennium of the pre-Christian
era. Clairvoyant vision finds in looking back that an incarnation
of a supersensible Being in a human being had taken place there,
just as in the Event of Golgotha an incarnation of the supersensible
Christ Being had taken place in the man Jesus of Nazareth. The
incarnation that took place at the beginning of the third millennium
B.C is extraordinarily difficult to follow up, even with the
science of seership, of initiation. It gave humanity something
of immense brilliance, having an incisive effect. What it gave
to humanity, in fact, was the primeval wisdom.

Viewed externally, one can say that it was a wisdom penetrating
deep into reality; cold, based purely on ideas, permeated little
by feeling. The actual inner nature of this wisdom can be judged
only by going back to that incarnation which took place over
in Asia at the beginning of the third pre-Christian millennium.
It is revealed to the retrospective clairvoyant gaze that this
was an actual human incarnation of the Luciferic Power.

And this incarnation of Lucifer in humanity, which in a certain
way has been achieved, was the origin of the widely extended
ancient wisdom based on the Third Post-Atlantean civilization.

There was still an after-effect, even in Grecian times, of the
widespread cultural impulse that was derived from this Asiatic,
Luciferic human being. Luciferic wisdom was of the utmost benefit
to man in that epoch of evolution - brilliant in a certain way,
graduated according to the different peoples and races among
which it was spread. It was plainly recognizable throughout the
whole of Asia, then in the Egyptian civilization, the Babylonian
civilization and even in the culture of Greece.

All that was possible to the humanity of that time in thought,
in the realm of poetry, in deeds, was in a certain way determined
through the entry of this Luciferic impulse into human civilization.

It would, of course, be extraordinarily philistine to wish to
say: That was an incarnation of Lucifer, hence we must flee from
it! Such philistinism could make one also flee from the beauty
and greatness that has come to mankind from this Luciferic stream,
for the fruits of Greek culture with all their beauty, proceeded,
as already said, from this stream of evolution. The whole of
Gnostic thought existing at the time of the Mystery of Golgotha,
an impressive wisdom shedding light deep into cosmic realities
- this whole Gnostic knowledge was inspired by the impulse coming
from Luciferic forces. One must not say that Gnostic thought
is therefore false; one is merely characterizing it by saying
that it is permeated by Luciferic forces.

Kim, there was supposedly a physical incarnation
of Lucifer. Is this correct? If we go back to the beginningness
of Lucifer who do we find?

~~~~Hi Dottie, I also have pondered sometimes
about who could this incarnation of Lucifer be attributed to.
Going three thousand years back before Christ, it cannot be researched
historically, because we are in the realm of pre-history. But
because if I remember right Steiner's indications it was supposed
to have taken place in the East, I was thinking China rather
than India. And we do have a book of ancient Chinese philosophy
that dates back millennia: The I Ching or book of changes.

This is what I found about it's history:

In Chinese literature four holy men are
cited as the authors of the Book of Changes, namely, Fu Hsi,
King Wen, the Duke of Chou, and Confucius. Fu Hsi is a legendary
figure representing the era of hunting and fishing and of the
invention of cooking. The fact that he is designated as the inventor
of the linear signs of the Book of Changes means that they have
been held to be of such antiquity that they antedate historical
memory...

It was plainly recognizable
throughout the whole of Asia, then in the Egyptian civilization,
the Babylonian civilization and even in the culture of Greece.

Aha!

Hi Kim and Gisele,

Yesterday when I was contemplating and checking
these things out I kept coming up with Egyptian and Greek. But
I thought it was to forward of the time period we were looking
at, even when looking at Egyptians. But it was not:) I kept finding
my self back at Sumer with this kind of Luciferic knowledge.

Also contemplating who could carry this sublime
being? Who could dare take on that kind of responsibility? Where
do we fast forward to when looking for the physical man who carried
this spirit. I mean this is one weighty man of knowledge it would
seem. Who were his disciples so to speak. Who were his helpers
in implementing such things as Steiner holds him accountable?

Who was the greatest man of knowledge in Egypt
and then Sumer and Greece? I bet we can trace it back this way
today. It really feels like a Middle Eastern/Chinese influence
than strictly a Chinese influence. A few of the places I checked
out yesterday had them being called the Sons of Heaven.

Also Steiner mentions it was the great forebearer
in a sense of the Gnostic traditions. And the Gnostics are of
the Feminine Divine revelations in my mind. I wonder on what
side Lucifer finds Himself of the equation: left or right? Hmm.

I'd have to say I am agreement. Kim, where
do you get The Towers of Hanoi problem?

Andrea you have put 'he' in marks, any reason
why? The reason I ask is because right from the very first sign
from Kim, my understanding, is of Magdalene: "The Towers"...:)
Also this story is a classic one for the Feminine and Masculine
entertwining. Interesting imagery with the Stars dancing at the
sister/wifes singing. (takes me to the story of Mary dancing
on the steps of the temple, and how everyone loved her)

I'd have to say I am agreement. Kim, where
do you get The Towers of Hanoi problem?

Andrea you have put 'he' in marks, any
reason why? The reason I ask is because right from the very first
sign from Kim, my understanding, is of Magdalene: "The Towers"...:)
Also this story is a classic one for the Feminine and Masculine
entertwining.

Yes, I'm not sure - in this case - if we could
talk about a complete masculine or female embodiment or not.
But what really matters here is the building of a true luciferic
high form of pre-christian spiritual wisdom able to give not
only fruits like the Taoism or Chinese Akchemy but to fill Mankind's
history for thousands of years all over the world, while the
Logos Himself was performing the acts Steiner talked about in
his lectures about the Christ and the Nathan Soul before the
Evenys of Palestine. ("Christ and Spiritual World"
If I remember well and also on the two cycles about the "Bhagavad
Gita")

Yes, I'm not sure - in this case - if we
could talk about a complete masculine or female embodiment or
not.

Hi Andrea and Kim,

Andrea, you have offered such a stunning stream
to contemplate. I immediately, after having read the pages Kim
offered, sensed the intense golden light of Krishna. Immediately.
And what a smile. Oh what a smile.

In regards to the human part it would seem
that at least the spirit would have not been as bodily tied as
was the Christ. I almost imagine the very real dance of the cosmos
with the uniting of the sister/brother/husband/wife combination.
Thinking on the Babaji stream. Oh what a joy Babaji is:), oh
how lighthearted and mischevious.

This morning I listened in on an NPR show
featuring the best supporting actor nominee Ken Watannabe (sp:(?
and wow if he is not a direct throw back to the being we are
discussing at this very moment. Very talented in all the arts
as well as philosophy of man in its every day way of being. Not
to mention the voice of the divine when he sings, just so melodoius:)
new word maybe. Oh well.

Andrea you have put 'he' in marks, any
reason why? The reason I ask is because right from the very first
sign from Kim, my understanding, is of Magdalene: "The Towers"...:)
Also this story is a classic one for the Feminine and Masculine
entertwining.

Andrea wrote:

Yes, I'm not sure - in this case - if we
could talk about a complete masculine or female embodiment or
not. But what really matters here is the building of a true luciferic
high form of pre-christian spiritual wisdom able to give not
only fruits like the Taoism or Chinese Akchemy but to fill Mankind's
history for thousands of years all over the world, ...

Dear Andrea and Kim,

Andrea what really matters are that things
are balanced. And as long as I have to keep hearing about male
beings topping female beings we have an issue. And the reason
being is that it is not true. And if we aim to wear the yoke
of Sophia we must be able to recongize her. And so in identifying
soley with the male of things we miss her completely.

Having said this I want to share a few websites
that speak to the Nu Kwa the wife of Fu Hi (many other close
reflections of this name Kim provided on a web page reference).
What I find interesting is that this Nu Kwa is a direct connection
to Kwan Yin. The name was changed to Kwan Yin when the Buddists
came over to China. It seems they were unwilling to let go of
their Mother Nu Kwa that the Buddists took on a new name of Kwan
Yin or at least so the story goes. I think it is actually the
daughter voice that can be seen in, my opinion, Bet Kol, Shekinah
and Magdalene. On one of these pages what I found interesting
was that an author found that Nu Kwa, the wife of whom we are
contemplating as Luciferic incarnation of sorts, was actually
the Lucifer incarnation itself. How stunning that one would find
this. I am not sure if it is directed at the woman being the
devil from a meanspirited place or if it is actually from a studied
position of thought.

You are right that they seem to be mythical
beings versus having been physically incarnate. I have found
a man who is a historical figure which seems to be the 'son'
of this Fu Hi and is considered to be matched with Osiris among
other 'father/son' like streams. Now he isn't a son in the normal
sense rather I can sense a connection between what they both
brought. Kind of like how I can sense the connection between
the Daughter Voices of God.

Now Fu Hi and Nu Kwa both have fishtails and
are entertwined when creating. This might be where we have the
symbol of Yin and Yang. You have found a place where we can begin.
And that is so amazing!!! I think you hit on something really
so important and I am wondering how you found this? How were
you led to this particular 'myth' if you don't mind sharing?

This morning I wrote a quip wondering where
Kwan Yin fits in. Well lo and behold I bought a book while looking
on these things called Ancient Mirrors of Womanhood by Merlin
Stone. And in here I found my first reference to Kwan Yin and
Nu Kwa. How stunning. And not to be underdone:) I sign, for some
reason Blessed Be as a salutation. I remember looking at that
and thinking 'oh that is too much dottie' but I smiled and left
it anyway. I was feeling a bit how I feel when I notice the Sophia
energy within me or surrounding me. Now, what has come home to
me after a full day riding around smiling through an excruciating
headache is that upon the first three websites I checked out
for this Nu Kwa -Kwan Yin connection they each have the salutation
of Blessed Be! at the bottom of their pages.

Now, these little group of coincidences may
be marked as such but for one who wakens to Magdalene one is
well aware of her sublte ways of saying 'hello' and there is
nothing one can say but Blessed Be!

These are not scholarship sites or anything,
they are just a little to show where others have noted a connection
between the Nu Kwa, wife of Fu Hi and my girl Kwan Yin who then
leads me to Magdalene:) Calendar page is a cutey.:) whew

In Chinese literature four holy men are
cited as the authors of the Book of Changes, namely, Fu Hsi,
King Wen, the Duke of Chou, and Confucius. Fu Hsi is a legendary
figure representing the era of hunting and fishing and of the
invention of cooking. The fact that he is designated as the inventor
of the linear signs of the Book of Changes means that they have
been held to be of such antiquity that they antedate historical
memory...

Hi Gisele,

I came back to your post to check the name
you have given for the supposed Luciferic incarnation. And you
have the same as Andrea! I have found a few other names besides
the ones shared by Kim and they are Pao Hsi or Pi Hsi.

I bought a book a few months back called The
I Ching of the Goddess by Barbara G. Walker. She seems to be
the 'it' woman of the Goddess from a scholarly level, similar
to Elaine Pagels it seems. It is pretty amazing that she actually
denotes the I Ching as being of the Feminine Divine and that
this is what was achieved through Nu Kwa and Fu Hsi.

Ms. Walker has the feminine aspect changing
around the time of Confucious and turning into a Patriarachel
point of view. I am not at all familiar with this to really know
of what the changes are specifically or even if there were any.
The other name you mention King Wen is noted by Ms. Walker as
the chief culprit of the mixing up of the natural foundation
of the I Ching. She goes onto show how King Wen's formations
hold no consistancy and that the real I Ching proceeds through
Fu Hsi's undertaking.

Once again however we find the world forming
from the 'Mother Deep' the 'Tao', or in other words the 'Mothers'
Womb'. I am having a very hard and bothered time by finding once
again these things mixed up and hidden. I remember this exasperated
feeling when finding the Magdalene and what had been hidden.
I am not even talking about my Lazarus understanding rather the
fact that she was an absolutely stunning individual and the Messenger
of Christ thrown away by men who used her sexuality to higher
their own claims.

Ms. Walker notes on page 13:

"There must have been
a compelling reason for taking apart so nicely balanced an arragement
as Fu Hsi's, mixing it up, and destroying all its former elegance.
It may well have been the same reason that led other patriarchal
societies to destroy reminders of earlier matriarchal works throughout
the world: to batten down temples of the Goddess despite their
beauty, to burn pagan libraries despite the value of their books,
to deny the sovereignty of nature despite its apparent inevitability.
Like Jewish, Christian, and Islamic patriarchates, China's Confucian
hierarchies attacked every aspect of the earlier culture that
revered motherhood as the world-creating principle, established
all family names upon the sign for "woman," and practiced
sexual worship of the female power that was supposed to be the
source of all mind, rationality, and inspiration."

Why oh why oh why,
Dottie

p.s. A few months back when I bought this
book I had no understanding at all when reading it. I didn't
have a connection until Fu Hsi and Nu Kwa and what a difference
today. Maybe my angel knew I would have spent my whole vacation
on this new stream and decided to let it go for the time being.
Thank goodeness for Anthroposophy Tomorrow! and Kim, Andrea,
Gisele and Christine as well as those that hold the space for
learning. Thank you!

this thread is leading us, I believe, on a
twofold path. One side is about the "male"-"female"
matter inside mankind's evolution and Spiritual Science's research.

If you were able to read Italian or to gain
a good translation you could able to havea look to a "triad"
of Antho-books written about auch a topic by an Italian Spiritual
Teacher, Massimo Scaligero (1906-1980), Dell'Amore Immortale
" (Immortal Love), "Graal", and "Iside Sophia
La Dea Ignota (The Unknown Goddess).

He wrote this "triad" not only to
fulfill a kind of his own task inside the Spiritual movement
but also to communicate the actual fruit of his own private and
personal life's experience, throwing a light on a path that im
itself is able to become a true sea of misunderstandings and
falsehoods think about the rumours about Steiner and OTO or what
has been written in the gossip pamphlet by c.mc Coun) My regret
here is that I'm not able to translate or summarize it for a
couple of reasons: most of all the lack of time !

The second side is about the picture of this
"triple Event", aka Lucifer, Christ and Ahriman in
the flesh.

To summarize we can say that Lucifer helped
to build a spiritual wisdom able to offer a kind of "preliminary
vessel" to support the Light of Christ after the Mystery
of Golgotha till the birth of the Consciousness Soul Age and
the Michael School. This is, obviuosly, the "Celestial Lucifer"
gesture, while we can see also the dark side of this Spiritual
Being mainly in his link to Ahriman. This one, "at his worst"
is near to be in the flesh, as we can understand, by several
studies about it. So the "dark intelligence" is deepky
at work (and we know also that behind Ahriman there is also a
more powerful Beast, namely 600 60 6), and while Lucifer's embodiment
was counterbalanced by Golgotha's Events, the main difference
between Luciferic and Ahrimanic embodiment lies in the fact that
we presently are in the Conciusness Soul Age, So this story is
no more a pure "Gods' Battle", Mankind has grown up
and we are alla in it. We have been given all the Michaelic and
Christic means to fight such a struggle. Moreover Accxording
to J Ben Aharon and the "Imagination" the Second Mystery
of Golgotha took place following the work of the Michael School
in the Spiritual Realm near the Earth, Now the giant task is
to make it real ALSO on the visible-physical Earth herself.

Give us a break, that is the males of this earth. The females
has used the Moon cycle to develop the female side, can't you
give the males at least the first half of the Earth cycle to
develop in, and then lets see what we can get out of the second
half, together ;-)

Dottie:

Ms. Walker has the feminine aspect changing
around the time of Confucious and turning into a Patriarachel
point of view.

We start with a matriarchate, because that
is what we have from the time of the Moon. Then we need to develop
the masculine energies, and therefore the patriarchal structures
has to take over. And, yes, it was not especially nice times
which came out of it, but it was new energies which needed to
be educated, so it is what could be expected.

All development happens through errors which is corrected.

Dottie:

Ms. Walker notes on page 13:

"There must have been
a compelling reason for taking apart so nicely balanced an arragement
as Fu Hsi's, mixing it up, and destroying all its former elegance.
It may well have been the same reason that led other patriarchal
societies to destroy reminders of earlier matriarchal works throughout
the world: to batten down temples of the Goddess despite their
beauty, to burn pagan libraries despite the value of their books,
to deny the sovereignty of nature despite its apparent inevitability.
Like Jewish, Christian, and Islamic patriarchates, China's Confucian
hierarchies attacked every aspect of the earlier culture that
revered motherhood as the world-creating principle, established
all family names upon the sign for "woman," and practiced
sexual worship of the female power that was supposed to be the
source of all mind, rationality, and inspiration."

Why oh why oh why,

Things change, and to learn new things, man
has to forget old things. Just see how static the chinese culture
has been for thousends of years, until now. The communists had
destroyed their culture, so now they have to develop a new knowledge/culture.

It's not better in the western culture, just see how much knowledge/culture
is dying to day, replaced with stupid soap operas, and the like.

I hope people can come up with some really interesting knowledge/culture,
when they see how empty their world is.

Give us a break, that is the males of this
earth. The females has used the Moon cycle to develop the female
side, can't you give the males at least the first half of the
Earth cycle to develop in, and then lets see what we can get
out of the second half, together ;-)

Hey Kim,

Hmm. I think your time is up and now we need
to find the balance of the two:) So, this means we have to uncover
once again that which was hidden so we can bring both parts together.

Funny thing tonight, I started my Kabbala
class at the clubhouse and it seems to me that Christianity and
Judaism are running parallel streams. And, they both need what
the other has: Jews need Christ and Christians need knowledge.

In thinking on this whole male/female thing
it dawns on me there really isn't too much more for me to study
in this realm. All I am doing, within my self, and outside my
self, is connecting the spots where they come together in past
history, physical or mystical, and trying to share this with
others. Suddenly I feel like someone put a pin to my balloon
and I do not desire to keep trying to show it. Maybe it is the
concepts of Chuang Tze that have affected me so greatly: the
ambition of a thing versus the action of being. Is this not Isis?

Kim:

We start with a matriarchate, because that
is what we have from the time of the Moon. Then we need to develop
the masculine energies, and therefore the patriarchal structures
has to take over. And, yes, it was not especially nice times
which came out of it, but it was new energies which needed to
be educated, so it is what could be expected.

Dottie

And now what? Are we or do we turn to find
the other part that seems not to be talked about or even known
except in some abstract form? Steiners idea of taking on the
Sophia seems second string compared to the other studies I see
and it seems to me that this is what we would strive for if we
were really following the path he laid out. But that kind of
comes back to the question Joel has put out regarding what is
Anthroposophy. It seems there really are two different streams
involved within the one group. And it would seem they would be
at loggerheads to get along in a deep understanding way. Kind
of like Lucifer and Christ: each is missing a thing without the
other.

Kim:

Things change, and to learn new things,
man has to forget old things. Just see how static the chinese
culture has been for thousends of years, until now. The communists
had destroyed their culture, so now they have to develop a new
knowledge/culture.

Dottie

I know things have to change. I guess I am
just bothered by the fact that because the Feminine isn't mentioned
it isn't important or at least it is secondary. But that would
not be true.

In my Kabbala class tonight I came to understand
there is a midrash from the very beginning of Judaism study that
speaks to the feminine. And, it is the idea that 1) women were
not mentioned as being of importance yet it is considered that
the twelve sons of Jacob had 12 twin sisters. That even Cain
and Able had twin sisters. TWIN SISTERS. Hello. Seriously.

Christianity has hidden so much and I just
do not understand why they did to the extent they did. I mean
it actually looks corrupt from just about the third century A.D.
Numerology is very big in the Kabbala and it is considered devil
worship by the Christians as is Astrology. I can understand that
it had to have happened but now trying to uncover that which
is hidden is so frustrating because ...well I guess maybe I have
no patience for the process.

Kim:

Kuan Yin, revered throughout Asia for thousands
of years, is the Chinese Goddess of infinite mercy and compassion.
Her name means "she who listens to the sounds [suffering]
of the world."

Dottie

God, she is so beautiful. She really is. And
to have her connected to Nu Kwa just seems to deepen it for me.
I actually just bought a little clay statue of her and she sits
directly in front of me when I do my meditation. It's just a
physical reminder for a call to prayer and groundedness that
makes me smile when I see her. It's like 'yeah, now what'. And
She is now a He by the way:) which follows my study of Magdalene.

Kim:

The description of Kuan Yin looks much
like Steiner's description of the being who 'Educates/Builds
the earth'. When she feels the great pain of man she calls Christ,
to cure the sickness together.

Dottie

This sounds like the Shekinah within the Holy
of Holies and whom Jerome hid in a cave from his Jewish counter
parts.

Kim, if Christ and Lucifer are each within
us doesn't that make us all one in the end? The deeper I go within
my self I get a sense of unity of the One and the Hiearchies
just seem to fall away.

Hmm. I think your time is up and now we
need to find the balance of the two:) So, this means we have
to uncover once again that which was hidden so we can bring both
parts together.

Kim:

The first part of the Earth cycle is called
Mars and the second is called Mercury.

Dottie:

Funny thing tonight, I started my Kabbala
class at the clubhouse and it seems to me that Christianity and
Judaism are running parallel streams. And, they both need what
the other has: Jews need Christ and Christians need knowledge.

Kim:

Yes, that is right. A tragic story for all
parts. About 2000 years from now the Jews should find Christ
(and not Christianity). The people incarnated in Israel, at the
time of Christ, should incarnate there again in less than 2000
years, but incarnated through Europe in between.

Dottie:

In thinking on this whole male/female thing
it dawns on me there really isn't too much more for me to study
in this realm. All I am doing, within my self, and outside my
self, is connecting the spots where they come together in past
history, physical or mystical, and trying to share this with
others. Suddenly I feel like someone put a pin to my balloon
and I do not desire to keep trying to show it. Maybe it is the
concepts of Chuang Tze that have affected me so greatly: the
ambition of a thing versus the action of being. Is this not Isis?

Kim:

And Isis without Osiris is Lucifer.
Action of being is Wisdom and Will, and that is Isis and Osiris.
It is funny, everybody is talking about Wisdom, but nobody is
talking about Will. It is especially funny, because that is the
primary reason to invent the masculine part in this play. And
it is tragic, because it is there Ahriman attacks.

You need Wisdom to do the right, and Will to do! The greatest
act of Will was Christ's deed on Golgatha. A deed's life length
depends on the will you put in to it. Take Gandhi and Martin
Luther King.

Our future goal is to join Wisdom and Will!

Kim:

We start with a matriarchate, because that
is what we have from the time of the Moon. Then we need to develop
the masculine energies, and therefore the patriarchal structures
has to take over. And, yes, it was not especially nice times
which came out of it, but it was new energies which needed to
be educated, so it is what could be expected.

Dottie

And now what? Are we or do we turn to find
the other part that seems not to be talked about or even known
except in some abstract form? Steiners idea of taking on the
Sophia seems second string compared to the other studies I see
and it seems to me that this is what we would strive for if we
were really following the path he laid out. But that kind of
comes back to the question Joel has put out regarding what is
Anthroposophy. It seems there really are two different streams
involved within the one group. And it would seem they would be
at loggerheads to get along in a deep understanding way.

Kim:

Sophia/Michael is about the Wisdom and the
Will, and that is about 'To Create'.
I think, that much of what Joel write about,,, in that letter,,,
is Maya.

Dottie:

Kind of like Lucifer and Christ: each is
missing a thing without the other.

Kim:

You for forgot Ahriman. Christ is not in opposition
to either of them, but in the equilibrium of them. Those two
bad boys are not here by accident, but because we need them,
to learn to Create in freedom. But we should always remember
that Christ is not in opposition to any of them, but in equilibrium
between them, otherwise we are ending together with one of the
bad boys.

Kim:

Things change, and to learn new things,
man has to forget old things. Just see how static the chinese
culture has been for thousends of years, until now. The communists
had destroyed their culture, so now they have to develop a new
knowledge/culture.

Dottie

I know things have to change. I guess I
am just bothered by the fact that because the Feminine isn't
mentioned it isn't important or at least it is secondary. But
that would not be true.

Kim:

By the way, I now think I have found the reason
for why woman use their whole life educating their husbands;-)
You see, the feminine powers of the Moon has been necessary to
educate the new raw masculine powers of Earth. They are now going
to learn to work together with the masculine powers and man has
to learn, that the one he is married with, is not his mother.

Dottie:

In my Kabbala class tonight I came to understand
there is a midrash from the very beginning of Judaism study that
speaks to the feminine. And, it is the idea that 1) women were
not mentioned as being of importance yet it is considered that
the twelve sons of Jacob had 12 twin sisters. That even Cain
and Able had twin sisters. TWIN SISTERS. Hello. Seriously.

Kim:

Beautiful! and midrash is a good search word
for a new area I haven't been in before.

Dottie:

Christianity has hidden so much and I just
do not understand why they did to the extent they did. I mean
it actually looks corrupt from just about the third century A.D.
Numerology is very big in the Kabbala and it is considered devil
worship by the Christians as is Astrology. I can understand that
it had to have happened but now trying to uncover that which
is hidden is so frustrating because ...well I guess maybe I have
no patience for the process.

Kim:

We are back with the Creative Will. Paul was
chosen because of his extreme Will power, not of his Wisdom.
John the evangelist saved the deeper knowledge for those who
can 'read'.
This is part of the tragic following that the Jews didn't recognize
Christ.

Dottie

God, she is so beautiful. She really is.
And to have her connected to Nu Kwa just seems to deepen it for
me. I actually just bought a little clay statue of her and she
sits directly in front of me when I do my meditation. It's just
a physical reminder for a call to prayer and groundedness that
makes me smile when I see her. It's like 'yeah, now what'. And
She is now a He by the way:) which follows my study of Magdalene.

Kim:

The description of Kuan Yin looks much
like Steiner's description of the being who 'Educates/Builds
the earth'. When she feels the great pain of man she calls Christ,
to cure the sickness together.

Dottie

This sounds like the Shekinah within the
Holy of Holies and whom Jerome hid in a cave from his Jewish
counter parts.

Kim:

You know that one of Steiner's messages is
that all the religions in reality describes the same deities,
in different language and in different 'clothes'.

Dottie:

Kim, if Christ and Lucifer are each within
us doesn't that make us all one in the end? The deeper I go within
my self I get a sense of unity of the One and the Hiearchies
just seem to fall away.

Kim:

Don't forget Ahriman;-)
I don't think that Love between human beings where possible if
we were not One and we are One in God! (We talk so much about
Christ, that we have a tendency to forget God).
By the way, Christ is Love, Lucifer is egoism.

Love,
Kim

Knowledge without understanding leads nowhere and without Will
you don't get there.

The first part of the Earth cycle is called
Mars and the second is called Mercury.

Hey Kim, and this means what exactly in terms
of our spirits?

Dottie:

And, they both need what the other has:
Jews need Christ and Christians need knowledge.

Kim:

Yes, that is right. A tragic story for
all parts.

Dottie

And what is so tragic about it is that this
is the space where a Rabbi has such a hard time with a Christian.
We can all talk the facial level of things but as soon as it
gets to the 'love' of a thing that is not our physical family
we have issues. And this is where the Christ comes in. I can
see that Christians have the capability to grow knowledge, and
will they, but the Jews growing Christ seems a bit difficult
as they refuse to look at the possibility that the Messiah has
come.

First lesson was put to me about 4 various
levels of relationships we have with others. Now, the problem
with experiencing Christ within is that I love everyone I meet.
I am called by my self to love the cashier at the bookstore as
I love my family. Everyone I meet is a brother, sister, mother,
father, to me. And this finds no understanding with the Rabbi
and the four other Jewish girls in my group. And to me this is
the Christ.

So, here's a question for the tribe: I ask
you to hold my camera for me as a favor while I go on vacation.
(don't know why I am not taking it with me:) And you agree. Now,
when I return you have told me that it was stolen but you had
placed it in a very secure place and did the most you could to
keep it safe. Who is responsible for this camera having been
stolen? Should you who had agreed to do me this favor have to
repay me the cost of my camera?

The first part of the Earth cycle is called
Mars and the second is called Mercury.

Hey Kim, and this means what exactly in
terms of our spirits?

Kim:

Mars is of course where the masculine powers
is educated. The time we are living in now are the Mercury part
of the Earth cycle, and Mercury means communication (together
with a lot more) between the masculine and feminine powers.

Dottie:

And, they both need what the other has:
Jews need Christ and Christians need knowledge.

Kim:

Yes, that is right. A tragic story for
all parts.

Dottie

And what is so tragic about it is that
this is the space where a Rabbi has such a hard time with a Christian.
We can all talk the facial level of things but as soon as it
gets to the 'love' of a thing that is not our physical family
we have issues. And this is where the Christ comes in. I can
see that Christians have the capability to grow knowledge, and
will they, but the Jews growing Christ seems a bit difficult
as they refuse to look at the possibility that the Messiah has
come.

Kim:

Here you have the biggest problem between
Israel and the arabs. Both are tribe religions with no love for
those outside the tribe.

First lesson was put to me about 4 various
levels of relationships we have with others. Now, the problem
with experiencing Christ within is that I love everyone I meet.
I am called by my self to love the cashier at the bookstore as
I love my family. Everyone I meet is a brother, sister, mother,
father, to me. And this finds no understanding with the Rabbi
and the four other Jewish girls in my group. And to me this is
the Christ.

So, here's a question for the tribe: I
ask you to hold my camera for me as a favor while I go on vacation.
(don't know why I am not taking it with me:) And you agree. Now,
when I return you have told me that it was stolen but you had
placed it in a very secure place and did the most you could to
keep it safe. Who is responsible for this camera having been
stolen? Should you who had agreed to do me this favor have to
repay me the cost of my camera?

Kim:

When I was younger I learnt that you should
not put more confidence into a person than he could live up to.
So the camera is lost.

The only solution, for you, is to understand your fellow beings
better.

When I was younger I learnt that you should
not put more confidence into a person than he could live up to.
So the camera is lost.

The only solution, for you, is to understand your fellow beings
better.

Time and reincarnation will hopefully solve the rest.

Hey Kim,

Well it seems I argued for the point that
it was the person who asked for the favors responsibility. Which
everyone disagreed with. But the law of the Torah speaks to the
point of this: if the man paid to have his friend watch the camera
than it is the friends responsibility to repay the cost of the
camera. If he had not paid it is the responsibility of the owner.

It all comes down to the point of money. And
this is how the law is understood. No room for any feeling of
sorts. It's this or it is that and no way around it.

You would have given up the colors of your
ship (blue and gold) just as I had and so early on:)

Where to now Kim? Why all the learning? It
seems it must be turned back out someway. The learning can not
be just for ones self. It seems one would come to a point that
the only thing to do is to share what one has learned. Steiner
lived a life that he turned it back out over and over and over
again and in a most magnificant way. The next thing seems to
be one must find a way to organize the brain in such a manner
that the concepts understood can be shared in some manner.

Did you read the point about Kwan Yin becoming
a Buddha but turning it down to be a Bodhisattva on our planet?
Something to live up to.

Well it seems I argued for the point that
it was the person who asked for the favors responsibility. Which
everyone disagreed with. But the law of the Torah speaks to the
point of this: if the man paid to have his friend watch the camera
than it is the friends responsibility to repay the cost of the
camera. If he had not paid it is the responsibility of the owner.

It all comes down to the point of money.
And this is how the law is understood. No room for any feeling
of sorts. It's this or it is that and no way around it.

Kim:

You put your money in the bank (incidentally
you know the 'owner'). There is a bank robbery, and they took
'your' money. Do you accept that?

No, that rule is commen sence.

The difference is in the story with the samaritan,
those outside and inside, the unbelievers and the believers.

Christ made Love unconditional.

Dottie:

You would have given up the colors of your
ship (blue and gold) just as I had and so early on:)

Where to now Kim? Why all the learning?
It seems it must be turned back out someway. The learning can
not be just for ones self. It seems one would come to a point
that the only thing to do is to share what one has learned. Steiner
lived a life that he turned it back out over and over and over
again and in a most magnificant way. The next thing seems to
be one must find a way to organize the brain in such a manner
that the concepts understood can be shared in some manner.

Kim:

You sound like you have talked with Joel lately.

Fun by side, this is a difficult one. And
I can't answer it. I can only give a few sentences.
You share by living!

It is your Love, Wisdom and Compassion which
is your strength, and which you can give others. It was the same
Steiner did.

You don't learn to teach others, you learn
because Learning is Living! The joy when new revelations opens
up for you. The joy of exchanging ideas with others. Giving your
friend a hint when she is in a blind alley in her life. Also
lonelyness, because there is no one you can talk with it about.

It is the learning process which is the central point, it is
not so much what you learn.

We are born with a certain amount of curiosity
and compassion (Luciferic positive energies). Ahriman is then
working the rest of your life to remove your curiosity and compassion,
but allowing you to boost your lower Luciferic Ego of all the
knowlegde you have.

Dottie:

Did you read the point about Kwan Yin becoming
a Buddha but turning it down to be a Bodhisattva on our planet?
Something to live up to.

Kim:

Yes, or Christ exchanging the Sun with Earth.
It must be worse than leaving California for UK ;-)

By the way, I now think I have found the
reason for why woman use their whole life educating their husbands;-)

Kim!

Do you know this is really true? It really
is. Even when I am sharing with women they get it and when sharing
with men it is a whole different story. With men, not the ones
on this list rather in my personal Hollyood/Los Angeles life,
they actually have to have the experience over and over and over
again before they understand the 'feeling/light' of a thing.
It's as if women can easily sense/understand it but the men have
to fight/counter it first.

That was a funny thing to have said:) glad
I was home and not at the coffee shop.

Kim:

Beautiful! and midrash is a good search
word for a new area I haven't been in before.

Dottie

Well, I have to watch my rabbi as he has a
twinkle in his eye and a big belly reminding me of a mythical
character himself. Midrash is a divining to a story in the Torah
from what I can sense. But this one about the twelve twin sisters
does not just come from mid air and he put a little kindegarden
understanding to it that just said to me 'oops, he just let a
cat out of a bag'. I was so shocked he had to stop the class
for a minute due to my reaction. Can you imagine hearing ancient
sages contemplated 'TWIN SISTERS' to the males and being me at
that very moment.

Ah, Kim, this whole post allows me to smile
this morning. I was feeling a little bereft last night when realizing
I did not have any book I wanted to take with me to the coffee
shop after class. I looked around at all my new books and my
old books and couldn't find one. It's all within me. And then
you come along with a perfect post that allows me to smile alot
after a good nights rest and contemplate a new journey.

I am interested in knowing how long you studied
Steiner and what other areas you have studied. What are the things
that occurred or maybe the lessons that occurred in your life
that lead you to have such a beautiful and I mean beautiful understanding.
And to be able to tie it all together in such a 'mind' way as
well. You really connect all these streams that come alive when
I read your posts.

Andrea if you are listening in I am wondering
if you, this is not a radio show dottie:) anyhow, I am wondering
still how you came to know where a possible Lucifer incarnation
was? Gisele did as well.

Ahriman is like Lazarus for me: Where the
hell is he?

Wisdom and Will huh? Okay. That would seem
to be the Chuang Tze way and what Steiner was trying to share.

I love what Joel has been sharing, especially
since he has joined this list. He has such a wonderful overview
of things that helps me to connect thoughts in a way that does
not come natural to me. Although I do disagree with his point
on who is an Anthroposophist: It's almost like saying one is
not a Christian until one follows Christ exactly as Christ walked.
There is a process.

Kim:

You share by living!

Dottie

I know. I was just sappy after having my Kabbalah
class. I looked around and realized the place I have to go is
inner and it feels so burdensom sometimes. Heavy in a way. Or
maybe it's just that it takes a lot of energy to really allow
oneself to walk into these spiritual worlds and then walk out
again. How does one have the energy to do what Dr. Steiner did.
I mean he lived his life and he entered into these worlds. Just
astounding.

My Rabbi split open an apple to show a point
and suddenly I am inner again and sensing the inner of things.
I have tried so hard to not sense the inner any more as I wanted
to build my mind to meet Steiner. But this is where one must
go again after building the mind. For the mind only goes so far
and then we have to reenter the sensing into for the balance/marriage.

Kim:

You don't learn to teach others, you learn
because Learning is Living!

Dottie

No, I don't want to teach others, we do that
naturally through example. I want to share with others. I am
just frustrated by all the hiding of the Feminine. I mean She
is everywhere. Even in the apple and her seeds. This whole Kabbalah
thing is going to turn into the way they hid the feminine,or
at least how She is revealed, I know it, and it has a saddening
effect in my self. Do you know why the Tarot cards were originated?
Do you know what they are trying to say? It's even in the male/female
Jesus cards where we have Jesus with bubbs. Seriously. And Jesus
even has red lipstick on. Everywhere I look I see this hidden
thing that nobody is talking about. I mean Jesus with bubbs and
lipstick. Really.

Kim:

We are born with a certain amount of curiosity
and compassion (Luciferic positive energies). Ahriman is then
working the rest of your life to remove your curiosity and compassion,
but allowing you to boost your lower Luciferic Ego of all the
knowlegde you have.

Dottie

That's a really good point Kim. It's good
to keep doing those daily exercizes of Dr. Steiners. I think
I am going to post them like the wc quotes of the day. I like
especially the one where we have to look back at our daily events
and see where we could have done a thing differently if so called.
And then to look back on the whole weak. Whew.

Kim:

Yes, or Christ exchanging the Sun with
Earth. It must be worse than leaving California for UK ;-)

And magic in Love,

Dottie

Christ exchanging the Sun with the Earth?
And leaving Cali for UK does not even cross my mind:) Are you
in the UK? I have heard that you folks get all that rain and
clouds throughout the days. Not for me unless it is a sun shining
smiley kind of rain. But now Dornach is calling me in a big way.
I saw a book that shows her figure and boy is she beautiful.
I hope I can go there this summer.

I have been thinking Kim about the Marriage
at Cana and these vessels of water turned into wine. Now, that
particular mystery is of the Feminine. And I relate it directly
to the Lazarus raising. (again I use Lazarus out of respect for
what others believe)

In all that Dr. Steiner speaks of I find he
left out the Goddess and shed no light on her. He speaks of Isis
and so forth but that is an abstract way of speaking on the historical
figures that beheld this Feminine energy. In most of his findings
he left a mystery for us to find and to uncover. He did not reveal
Her.

The question I come to is this: Is it important
that She be revealed now? I suggest the timing is right. This
knowledge is making its way forth but it is not being truly discussed,
that I can see, by the Anthroposophists. And I think it is important
for them to do so if they so know her. Maybe they do not know
of her and so they can not. Maybe this organization is so caught
up in the male stream that they can not lead in that which needs
to have Anthroposophical light shed upon it. It's almost as if
there is this secret badge of honor that follows a male stream
exclusively, speaking of Sophia as if She is not a true reality.
It feels very lopsided in a way.

Douglas Klotz is a Theosophists and he is
shedding great light that leads from the Christ energy to the
Sophia energy. And it is his own work versus repeating what Ms.
Blatvasky had to say about a thing. I am jealous for Steiner
students to lead on this issue. Maybe the books Steiner speaks
of Her have still not been revealed in English. Maybe it is there
but not unfolded yet. We will see. That leads me to wonder if
Mr. Powell is also a Theosophists. For some reason I think he
is.

Anyhow, the Marriage at Cana and Johns beheading
and the raising of Lazarus. In here is where I believe the steps
to the main mystery are discovered.

Looking at the Kabbalah there are five levels
of the soul. Do you know which ones line up with Dr. Steiners?
1. Nefesh - vegetative soul
2. Ruach - the emotional soul
3. Neshama - the intellectual soul
4. Chaya - the transcendental soul
5. Yechida - the unified soul

AND there are 10 attributes (The Ten Sefirot)
which
3 are intellect
7 of emotions