Sponsor an Egyptian student

Comments

I concur with ILSM. You will not get any criticism from me. Pray for us that we may truly be honest with our dealings with God, with converts and with each other. FYI, as a Copt, I greatly care and appreciate what Fr Peter has done and continues to do. We value his service more than he may know.

[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=13452.msg158873#msg158873 date=1344959151]Egyptians are opposed to anything produced by converts unfortunately Abouna. Either they are just plain leary of anyone from outside of their ethnicity or they carry that Pharaonic arrogance and pride, I tend to think the latter to be honest.

Many Copts, not all of them of course, but the vast majority of them, go to church for a social club. They outwardly act like they are Orthodoxy but are vehemently opposed to anyone, especially converts, who attempt to make a difference. Getting a Copt to donate money is like pulling teeth. Actually just getting them to care or even listen would be a win! If you were a bishop they would give you tons of money so they can look good. Seriously, these people treat the church like a bath house sometimes, just a place to go. And they are always late, but when there is a bishop, they put on their best clothes and best perfumes and come early and then the devout people have no place to sit so the copts can all look good for their bishop. Because we all know thats how you get into heaven right, impressing a bishop.

They don't stop and think, you receive the body and blood of CHRIST! Yet you show up on time whenever there is a bishop. I hate to tell you Abouna but converts are not welcome in the Coptic church, not one bit. As wonderful as this school is and as much as I have learned from it, the copts don't care. If you made some kind of chat room where they can get together and pat themselves on the back for being coptic, then I think you would have tons of supporters but realistically its not going to happen. Copts are spiritually lazy, leaving us scratching our heads. If it were not for great Popes like Pope Kyrillos the 6th, what would you people even have?

Sorry but its the truth, just blatantly ungrateful people who are clearly not welcoming to converts, yet they blast protestant music all over CYC in a cheap attempt to whore themselves to protestants to say "hey we are cool, we are hip". Its really a cruel joke for us Abouna. It saddens me, the amount of work you have done and nobody seems to care, its no wonder I never see visitors come back to our church. Its no wonder people go to the EO. I mean essentially we are pushed off to the side and ostracized for being non-egyptian.

I expect a bit of criticism from this post, go ahead. Can you really deny the facts of the above said statements?

It was a strongly worded comment. There is evidently emotion infused in it. this is the reality of how we are feeling now. I have a few friends who have left the Coptic church (I myself have been looking around at different Orthodox churches with consideration.)

The church has sadly hit a rough patch. It is really sad. That is why ILSM began all his statements with "unfortunately." It is not nice to admit, but then again, neither is cancer. The faster we admit it, the faster we get started on a solution.

The church is great, but the people are very ethnocentric and not generally open to those outside. We can sit here and try to find ways to write off what I said, but the fact is, we all know its true. This is why I am only EVER invited to the celebrations of major feasts and thats it. Then I see on Facebook all the fun they are having doing church activities....without me. Not one person told me that there was a bible school this summer for the kids, so guess what, my son did not get to go.

None of you can sit here and tell me that the Copts, in general, are NOT ethnocentric. It is unbelievable that someone like Abouna Peter has to struggle the way he does. It is unacceptable that he as treated as if he were a second class citizen. All the work he does and he gets little to no respect whatsoever. THIS is why people do not come back to the church. My mother and father finally began going to church and I STRUGGLED to get through to you people, but of course they left.

Your church was built by converts and don't you forget that. Pushing us away because we are not Egyptian is unacceptable and everyone one of you know that what I am saying is a fact. Every one of you know that its not going to change. Your mentality sucks as much as your ethnocentric culture.

^*Thumbs up* I myself do not look Egyptian because one of my parents is American and I have often times been discriminated against and pushed away by some within my parish due to this. It is the Orthodox faith of Christ which keeps me going. Overall, I love my Church, but she does have modern problems of Protestantization, ethnocentrism, and lack of Patristic knowledge. Thank you for waking us up Ioannes.

PS- I am going to send Fr. Peter a PM regarding the subject of this thread.

Its not the church, its the people within. For instance, anytime I pointed something out, I have essentially been told to shut up and that I am wrong. The point is not in me being right, the point is bringing something to someones attention so that the proper people can deal with it. However, it seems more that I am looked upon as "how dare this convert tell ME about MY faith."

I love the church, but I must say I am more in love with the church as it was in the 4th and 5th century Egypt. Again, its not the church itself but the people within it, and that is not to say they are bad people but have the incorrect mentality. Many of these people are more focused on the material world rather than the Orthodox Spiritual Life.

This is almost diametrically opposed to the EOTC view of converts. I have never been more welcomed in a church in my life and there seems to be a great respect in the EOTC for those who have converted. The clearly realize that the convert may be able to offer up a view that they do not have themselves. While in the Coptic church, they know everything and the convert is welcome so long as they shut up. I cannot count the people who have came and went, and the Copts seem to be completely satisfied and almost relieved when this happens. Again, its a social club to most of them not a place for salvation.

I personally have grown weary and am troubled by the sheer pharaonic ignorance of many copts. I mean, they really know how to make you feel unwelcome. But what do you expect from a people who most do not even know who St Cyril of Alexandria is, and if you mention the name they think St Pope Kyrillos the 6th, having no clue who St Cyril the first is.

This is why I have so much respect for Abouna Peter, he has to deal with you people constantly and he is still there, still going, still working hard FOR you people who are seemingly to stupid to even notice. I haven't the patience like Abouna Peter. He has put everything on the line to attempt to help others and essentially has his face spat in by clergy and laity. You Copts are an ungrateful and foolish people. There are few amongst you who shine like a star, but most of you have heads harder than the diorite your ancestors statues are carved from. Self righteous people, you need to wake up.

[quote author=JG link=topic=13452.msg158936#msg158936 date=1345018416]I agree in general with Ioannes, and it is a sad thing when some churches do not do their utmost to be welcoming and friendly to converts to the Church.

But on the other hand, I know converts in some churches who have told me themselves how welcome and open everybody has been with them, and how they feel as if they have come home.

We do indeed have problems with ignorance and lack of knowledge, and this stems from a spiritual apathy. But we all know of Copts who are very spiritual people, who we are blessed to be around.

Pray that God opens our hearts to Him and to one another.

If there were more spiritual Copts, as you put it, then Abouna Peter would not be struggling so much in keeping his online school going. Unfortunately Copts care more about iPads and vacations than they do helping out a ministry. Stop being so spineless people. Ugh, I don't even know why I wasted my time in getting on here. Tasbeha.org is the epitome of this spiritual void within the church.

Today I am enrolling the first Egyptian student who has been processed and registered through the excellent organisation Panarion which is acting as our Agency in Egypt.

Thanks to the generosity of a few, a very few, we are able to sponsor brothers and sisters in our Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt who wish to be able to study our Orthodox Faith in some depth and cannot afford to do so. Panarion has many potential students who are all being personally interviewed to ensure that they will be able to make the most from participation in these courses.

Of course Ioannes has spoken very robustly and in a way that I would not have done. I am sure that there is no neglect of this ministry because it is organised by a convert. Indeed I have many good friends here and around the world in the Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria. But funds are certainly required or this ministry will stumble and may well fail. I can't deny that, and it is confusing to me that so many people have viewed even this thread, not to mention other places where this ministry and this particular project are mentioned, and yet have not felt led to make even a donation of $5.

I guess if every view of this page had resulted in a very small donation then the London School would be well established, but only a handful of donations of any size have been made.

If this lack of support is due to my own faults, and if there are things I have said or done which have offended people, then please accept my apologies. I would not want my own faults and errors, manifest as they are on this site and in other places, to be the cause of preventing people studying our Orthodox Faith in depth, and especially preventing those who want to study and cannot afford to from finding sponsorship.

I won't keep mentioning this ministry here if there is really no interest in it, but since Ioannes has brought it into focus for a moment, let me say that very many small donations, or a few large ones, or quite a few medium ones, all add up to stability for this ministry and will allow it to becomes established. If there is no support at all then its future is in doubt.

[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=13452.msg158937#msg158937 date=1345019816][quote author=JG link=topic=13452.msg158936#msg158936 date=1345018416]I agree in general with Ioannes, and it is a sad thing when some churches do not do their utmost to be welcoming and friendly to converts to the Church.

But on the other hand, I know converts in some churches who have told me themselves how welcome and open everybody has been with them, and how they feel as if they have come home.

We do indeed have problems with ignorance and lack of knowledge, and this stems from a spiritual apathy. But we all know of Copts who are very spiritual people, who we are blessed to be around.

Pray that God opens our hearts to Him and to one another.

If there were more spiritual Copts, as you put it, then Abouna Peter would not be struggling so much in keeping his online school going. Unfortunately Copts care more about iPads and vacations than they do helping out a ministry. Stop being so spineless people. Ugh, I don't even know why I wasted my time in getting on here. Tasbeha.org is the epitome of this spiritual void within the church.

It has nothing to do with a convert or spritualism.I do not think this forum is the right place to seek donations.Most of us are highschool and university students who barely survive on the incomes we have.If people do not respond,it is because they cant afford it at the moment or have other importnat things to take care of.

I have a question. How do you know there aren't many people from Tasbeha.org who have already donated for Fr Peter's London School? Our church has dozens and dozens of ministries. Maybe Copts are donating to anyone of those ministries anonymously. Maybe Copts are donating to Fr Peter's school anonymously. Maybe Copts are donating time instead of money. Maybe Copts are trying to donate knowledge when people have questions and post them on Tasbeha.org. Yes, there is a spiritual drought in many churches by many Copts. But God provides. We pray for the Lord of the harvest to send workers but we don't assume that there are no workers.

In 1 Kings 18:22, Elijah says "I alone am left a prophet of the Lord; but Baal’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men." Elijah repeats his frustration in the next chapter. "I have been very zealous for the Lord God of hosts; for the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life.” 1 Kings 19:10. God's reply to Elijah: "Then the Lord said to him: “Go, return on your way to the Wilderness of Damascus; and when you arrive, anoint Hazael as king over Syria. Also you shall anoint Jehu the son of Nimshi as king over Israel. And Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel Meholah you shall anoint as prophet in your place. It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill. Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.” (1 Kings 19:15-18) Elijah complains that Baal has 450 men and he is fighting alone. God figuratively says, "What are you talking about? I have 7000 men to help you." And when frustration, depression and pessimism got the best of Elijah, God showed him Elisha. Elijah saw Elisha plowing the twelfth yoke of oxen. In other words, Elisha was as strong as an ox. When Elijah was at his weakest, God showed him the strength of Elisha. Elijah was never alone. Although Elijah struggled in his ministry more than any other prophet, his ministry did not die because no one helped him. It continued in Elisha. So too, if anyone is ministering, he is not alone. And if one donates or supports a ministry, he is not alone. And if anyone has a hard time in his ministry, he is not alone. As we say in the Gregorian Liturgy, God "is the Provider and giver of all good things."

Finally, while many topics on Tasbeha.org are spiritually void, that doesn't mean we are not spiritually benefiting from responses. I personally have benefited from your posts, Ioannes. Don't feel you are wasting your time here.

Fr Peter, Not everyone is in high school or college. Not everyone who reads will donate. If you stop posting reminders, no one will likely donate. In business, a company markets thousands and millions of reminders so that a fraction results in profits. There shouldn't be any expectation of a 1 to 1 return of effort and investment. If that were the case, then everyone who views this thread would feel obligated to donate. This is contradictory to the whole idea of donating. I think you need to keep reminding us, and even increase your reminders. Eventually, God will provide the funds you need by softening our hearts in the right time.

One more thing. Fr Peter is clergy. Fr Peter is part of the hierarchy. It is ridiculous to suggest his ministry's legitimacy is questionable.

God bless you for your kind and understanding answer. I wil certainly modify the LSOCS website to show those bishops, from the Coptic Orthodox Church and other Orthodox Churches who have supported and continue to support this ministry by their prayers and advice.

Let me ask one last time today then, begging this site's indulgence and using Remnkemi's encouragement.

Please pray for this ministry, that it might continue to grow as God desires and wills, and if you are moved to offer any support, of whatever amount, even $1, then please visit today. It is easy to feel like Elijah, and I am grateful for the passage that Remnkemi posted. If you are one of the '7,000 in Israel' that God will use to encourage me then please consider again visiting the link.

I do not wish to take the focus off of this thread because Fr. Peter's ministry is well deserving of the attention and our donations. I wish it all of the success in the world.

Ioannes,

I agree with much of what you have stated however, I do want to point something out that will likely be an unpopular viewpoint.

Some Copts are afraid that they will be required to worship differently in order to accomodate converts in their church and they do not want to do that. They want to use the Coptic language and perhaps even Arabic. They worry that a Liturgy will be prayed entirely in English - with quicker tunes - to accomodate one or two converts in the middle of hundreds of Egyptian Copts who are accustomed to and prefer a mix of Coptic, English, and Arabic. I have attended liturgies where this happens with regularity. Even if the aforementioned is the reason, it does not excuse being unwelcoming towards converts, those who are not Egyptian, or those who are considering converting to Coptic Orthodoxy but it does warrant us being careful of how we pray and that we do not let go of the hymns and rituals which many are accustomed to.

Swmsang, If this is true, it is certainly a sad excuse. I am not a fool, I know this is generally not the case. The fact is a convert is a nuisance to the Coptic people. We suggest something, and we are ignored. So on top of learning a new style of worship that is completely foreign to us, we have to learn two new languages, a new theology, hymns, and a multitude of other things that come along with converting. The unwillingness to use the language of the country you are taking refuge in is a sign of arrogance and as I said before ethnocentrism.

Imikhail, That is a good point. I think the Coptic clergy are reluctant in supporting anything produced by a convert, which again proves my point about how ethnocentric and arrogant Copts are when it comes to converts. Just another excuse to keep your precious money in your pocket, which is typical of Copts. Spend money on your iPhones and other gadgets, spend money on your houses, spend money on your vacations or various meaningless political causes, but support a growing ministry? Naaaaaaaa, thats too much to ask. This thread graphically demonstrates why converts a few in the church and generally do not end up staying.

The laundry list of excuses I receive as to why this is happening is sickening. At first it was because the church was young in this country. Then it was that I am too overzealous, then it was the revolution, then blah blah blah excuse excuse excuse. You people want things your way or no way. You come seek refuge from persecution in this country and then treat us like crazies for making simple suggestions or trying to help.

The way Abouna Peter has been treated by the clergy and the Coptic church as a whole is utterly disgusting and the clergy should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. This behavior is disgusting and really makes me think twice about being part of a church that doesn't even want me there. You are a weak and spineless people who should have stayed in Egypt.

[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=13452.msg158996#msg158996 date=1345065200]The unwillingness to use the language of the country you are taking refuge in is a sign of arrogance and as I said before ethnocentrism.

Let's not start this discussion again. What you call arrogance here, I call the preserving of my ancestor's tradition, rites and language, part of a spiritual tradition I value deeply. And where in all of the Western world has English or the vernacular not been incorporated into our liturgies and praises and prayers?

That is a good point. I think the Coptic clergy are reluctant in supporting anything produced by a convert, which again proves my point about how ethnocentric and arrogant Copts are when it comes to converts. Just another excuse to keep your precious money in your pocket, which is typical of Copts. Spend money on your iPhones and other gadgets, spend money on your houses, spend money on your vacations or various meaningless political causes, but support a growing ministry? Naaaaaaaa, thats too much to ask. This thread graphically demonstrates why converts a few in the church and generally do not end up staying.

Talk about making a massive generalisation about a race - are you not here discriminating by ethnicity? Not all Copts are arrogant. Not all Copts are rich. Not all Copts have an iPhone, or go on vacations or support political causes. Because you happen to know individuals who are like this does not mean "Copts are arrogant when it comes to converts."

This behavior is disgusting and really makes me think twice about being part of a church that doesn't even want me there. You are a weak and spineless people who should have stayed in Egypt.

[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=13452.msg158996#msg158996 date=1345065200]Swmsang, If this is true, it is certainly a sad excuse. I am not a fool, I know this is generally not the case. The fact is a convert is a nuisance to the Coptic people. We suggest something, and we are ignored. So on top of learning a new style of worship that is completely foreign to us, we have to learn two new languages, a new theology, hymns, and a multitude of other things that come along with converting. The unwillingness to use the language of the country you are taking refuge in is a sign of arrogance and as I said before ethnocentrism.

Imikhail, That is a good point. I think the Coptic clergy are reluctant in supporting anything produced by a convert, which again proves my point about how ethnocentric and arrogant Copts are when it comes to converts. Just another excuse to keep your precious money in your pocket, which is typical of Copts. Spend money on your iPhones and other gadgets, spend money on your houses, spend money on your vacations or various meaningless political causes, but support a growing ministry? Naaaaaaaa, thats too much to ask. This thread graphically demonstrates why converts a few in the church and generally do not end up staying.

The laundry list of excuses I receive as to why this is happening is sickening. At first it was because the church was young in this country. Then it was that I am too overzealous, then it was the revolution, then blah blah blah excuse excuse excuse. You people want things your way or no way. You come seek refuge from persecution in this country and then treat us like crazies for making simple suggestions or trying to help.

The way Abouna Peter has been treated by the clergy and the Coptic church as a whole is utterly disgusting and the clergy should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. This behavior is disgusting and really makes me think twice about being part of a church that doesn't even want me there. You are a weak and spineless people who should have stayed in Egypt.

I am the first to argue that culture cannot come before unified and shared Orthodoxy. But to call Copts unwelcoming and ignorant towards convert is offensive. The Copts are perhaps the most welcoming and open of all the Orthodox. Yes, there are cultural barriers, and there are issues of ignorance that cause people to insist on needless traditions while letting go of what is essential. This can cause friction for converts. But to call Copts unwelcoming, weak, spineless, or unwelcome in this land is atrocious, and worse than anything the Copts have done to converts!

Ioannes, I think we need to not make sweeping generalisations because it is not fair to condemn an entire community for the sake of the behaviour of a few in this place or that place.

In my own experience I have visited EO churches where I have been entirely ignored even while dressed as a priest, and others have told me that they have had the same experience. But that would not allow for all EO to be criticised in the same way.

There are others here who have had very positive experiences joining various congregations, and even those who have been disappointed and upset on this website are not, it seems to me, upset by their actual real life experience.

I think that we have to be careful not to let particular and real experiences which have hurt us and disappointed us, whether we are converts or not, colour all of our perceptions. There are many places in the world where I know that you, as well as I, would happily emigrate just to be part of a particular Coptic Orthodox community.

So lets rein in that impulse to treat everyone in a stereotypical manner. All of us. Not all converts are the same. Not all Egyptians are the same. Not all priests are the same, nor bishops. Even if there has been disappointment in one situation, there is always the hope that next time will be better. Most of the people I respect most in the world are Egyptians.

One more thing. Fr Peter is clergy. Fr Peter is part of the hierarchy. It is ridiculous to suggest his ministry's legitimacy is questionable.

It is questionable if people do not know that it is supported by the clergy. The website does not mention any affiliation with the Coptic Church.

Unless Fr Peter is a rogue priest who operates his mission outside the authority given him, or unless you believe Fr Peter is not a priest, then he automatically is affiliated with the Coptic Church.

And even if he is not explicitly supported by the Coptic Church clergy, how does this make any difference? If you only do charitable acts because it is supported and sanctioned by the Coptic Church, "have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?" (James 2:40) When St Paul speaks of being generous and doing good, he says "Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith." (Galatians 6:10) He doesn't say, "Do good if your bishop supports it." He doesn't say, "Do good to the Jews only or do good only to those who are of the household of faith."

The only "condition" that is expected is you do charitable acts of love to everyone and anyone, including your enemies. This is God's will (Ezra 7:8, Psalm 37:3, Prov 3:27, Mark 3:35, and my absolute favorite Ephesians 6:6). Charity and love is given unconditionally. Affiliation to anyone is irrelevant.

I believe you are now taking advantage of people treading lightly with you to avoid offending you but I'm afraid you are the one who has now offended many. Your comments are very disrespectful and uncalled for. You probably lost quite a bit of support and empathy.

One more thing. Fr Peter is clergy. Fr Peter is part of the hierarchy. It is ridiculous to suggest his ministry's legitimacy is questionable.

It is questionable if people do not know that it is supported by the clergy. The website does not mention any affiliation with the Coptic Church.

Unless Fr Peter is a rogue priest who operates his mission outside the authority given him, or unless you believe Fr Peter is not a priest, then he automatically is affiliated with the Coptic Church.

And even if he is not explicitly supported by the Coptic Church clergy, how does this make any difference? If you only do charitable acts because it is supported and sanctioned by the Coptic Church, "have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?" (James 2:40) When St Paul speaks of being generous and doing good, he says "Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith." (Galatians 6:10) He doesn't say, "Do good if your bishop supports it." He doesn't say, "Do good to the Jews only or do good only to those who are of the household of faith."

The only "condition" that is expected is you do charitable acts of love to everyone and anyone, including your enemies. This is God's will (Ezra 7:8, Psalm 37:3, Prov 3:27, Mark 3:35, and my absolute favorite Ephesians 6:6). Charity and love is given unconditionally. Affiliation to anyone is irrelevant.

Affiliation is a must so people understand they are receiving and supporting the correct teaching..

Its ok, sorry I have offended you all. But I am looking at going to an EOTC so I can avoid this frustration leading to these outbursts. Nobody listens, and when they do they find a reason to write me off. Again, this is probably my fault but I let it build up and then I unleash it in a place like this because it is easy to just let loose. But again, I am probably going to go to an EOTC church, my wife is Ethiopian, our household is more Ethiopian and I do not have the same things to deal with in the EOTC.

Also, I will refrain from posting here again. Nothing against anyone here but the Coptic church is for Coptic people.

As a priest of the Coptic Orthodox Church, under the authority and care of a Coptic Orthodox Metropolitan those things which I engage in are naturally under the 'affiliation' of the Coptic Orthodox Church.

If there are those concerned then it should be noted that over the Summer I am meeting with various hierachs to form an Advisory Board. I will then add photos of all these hierachs to the site.

Please pray for this ministry, that it might continue to grow as God desires and wills, and if you are moved to offer any support, of whatever amount, even $1, then please visit today. It is easy to feel like Elijah, and I am grateful for the passage that Remnkemi posted. If you are one of the '7,000 in Israel' that God will use to encourage me then please consider again visiting the link.