Problem of Suffering Refuted, Permanently Problem of Suffering only exists for "atheism", making "atheism" false.

Now I wrote this at the un-Biblical man indoctrined ran, "Christian"Forums.com, however after being banned they took I assume almost all my post down, so I'm posting here.

Refuting the “problems of suffering” in relation to God, inventing Irrefutable Problem of suffering for “atheism”

Lets knock this out the park fast and quick, after Newtown shootings my OCD spiked and I got intrusive thoughts, so I went into debates in my head refuting the problem of suffering, and in my head I actually refuted it in a new manner.

So lets refute the “problem of suffering”When I say God, I mean The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.(for OCD’s sake)1, God has no obligation to end suffering/evil.2, Without suffering therefore is no evil, and the choice to do evil must exist for free will, and free will must exist in order for human beings with consciousness to exist.3, God has ended suffering with The Bible however humanity holds it back(For example Jesus Christ(God Himself) told us to share our possessions, if we all actually listened no one would be straving, guaranteed.)4, God must allow suffering to prevent further suffering, why? If a human has no experienced suffering, they(when they get to Heaven) will be like Adam, Eve and The Angels, they can sin, thus starting sin and suffering all over again, sending themselves to Hell, to solve this, God would allow the human to suffer(best to suffer a lot, not to sound bad but if you think and continue reading(before I get slandered) why? So that when they get to Heaven /New Earth they do not sin. After experiencing Heaven then looking back, no way anyone would go back to their old ways(Even I Born Again am incapable of going back to my old ways because of my experience with Jesus Christ(God) on this earth, imagine in Heaven? No way I’d even sin and I’d still have my free will. Like a poor man given the biggest mansion, you’d think the poor guy would mess that up and go back to the streets again? No, and now Heaven is inexplicable, so no one will sin. For this reason(4) alone suffering is a necessity.5, God already choose a moment in time when He will return. Why doesn’t He end suffering now? Well why not 1000 years ago? Here’s a few reasons,

1, Not according to plan2, Wants to create a lot of beings as most likely in Heaven new beings will not be created and suffering prevents us from sinning in Heaven(4)

3, He wanted you to exist(which means in order to exist you’d have to suffer, and added with 4 that secures you for eternity)

4,6, Jesus Christ(God Himself) didn’t deserve to die, yet humanity killed Him for no deserving reason, only because He is Perfect. And He went through The suffering, so God isn’t lavishing while we suffer, He suffered and suffers(He feels our pain) with us, but even He was He is still perfect.

8, humanity causes it’s own suffering. And it’s temporary, those who go to Heaven with Jesus Christ will be there for eternity, seems long, but fair.

9, God must end all suffering at once(everyone suffers by the way one way or the other), ending some isn’t fair, etc, God is fair, therefore ends either none or all suffering at once, He is all graceful and merciful therefore ends all suffering at once, which is basically The Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

With that proven, the problem of suffering against God is nonexistent, There’s no problem of suffering. There’s the solution of suffering, which is, prevents future suffering and is only temporary.

Now introducing the problem of suffering for “naturalism”/”atheism”

Suffering exists, and is a wrong, wrong means an improper function, we’re not supposed to function like this, therefore there has to be a solution to this improper function, under “naturalism” there is no solution, improper functions have solutions as returning to the original(or better) state is the proper function. “naturalism” is incapable of morally and emotionally bringing one to the natural/normal/proper function, therefore “naturalism” is false. God can do this, therefore God must necessarily exist. If a theory for a producer cannot bring back it’s production to the original state, then that isn’t the producer, as the producer can create the original state, therefore return it to it’s original state.

Which reminds me, Death also disproves “naturalism”, if “naturalism” were true then nature would be capable of Resurrecting someone from the dead just like starting life, according to a lot of “naturalist” this is impossible, so those that hold to that view lose it.

2, under “naturalism” free will wouldn’t exist, therefore good nor evil would exist, nor even consciousness.

Therefore “naturalism” is false and The Problem of Suffering and Evil is only for “atheism”

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) is Irrefutable and has no problems, while “naturalism” is totally refuteable and has many problems, which means God existing is more probable than “naturalism” so belief can only go to God, saying or believing otherwise is a delusion.

So yes the anger my OCD and intrusive thoughts enraged in me caused me to further kill “naturalism”

God Bless those who are mourning over the deaths of those innocent children, they will see them again one day, and that’s not just a guarantee but a fact. The More I think about it, the more “naturalism” cannot be true.

Life doesn’t end at the grave, so don’t be afraid, God allows suffering for good reason, so there won’t be anymore suffering. Also one more argument that is a fact, God is all fair, therefore those who say “where was God during 9/11 and Sandy Hook/Newtown.?” , God is all fair, so in order for God to have prevented those events, He would have to prevent all evil events, which would basically mean Jesus Christ Second Coming. The pain of those who suffered will be no more. Remember this, God allows suffering, but does not cause it. He is All Good therefore causes no unrighteous suffering and since all good will prevent further suffering, in order to do that suffering needs to be allowed, so when Heaven comes no one rebels again.

Added with the fact that humanity can't be hypocrites, here's one exposure. we can if we all wanted to make sure everyone is fed, people say, why didn't God feed the starving in Africa? I cite Matthew 7:5, you hypocrite! you can easily feed people in Africa. God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) commands us to give to the poor, this offers us Repentance, people say God is everywhere, why doesn't He help? Because humans are everywhere too, remember Genesis, God put us in charge of the earth, we're supposed to be homekeepers, make sure God's Creation is good and we don't, God already gave the food, time to share it. we(including me, I'm not going to be hypocritical as that would be pharisee like) don't do enough, then we blame God when He provided it all and answers prayers. with sin, stupidity, laziness, greed, etc the things we whin about will never be fixed, The Prayers been answered? God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) says Hello! He's provided the food and The Bible, and sustains us, and He will end all suffering one day, want suffering to go away sooner? Do something!

3, God has ended suffering with The Bible however humanity holds it back(For example Jesus Christ(God Himself) told us to share our possessions, if we all actually listened no one would be straving, guaranteed.)

Do you really believe God ended suffering with the Bible?

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

Do you plan on copying everything you posted before at christianforums.com, or just the long ones?

Maybe, have good stuff, that website was wrong, banned me permanently for some minor mistakes(a few one liners against anti-premartial sex-ist, calvinist "agnostics" and "atheist" which I apologized for) yet they let people who are bigoted(one "atheist" personally compared me to westboro and when I asked for proof, he stayed shut, reported him for it and he I believe is still on that website)

I was one of the best Christian Defenders they had, no one unless they trolled would beat me in a debate, hopefully I helped and converted folks to The Truth of The Bible.

Yep, not the physical book but obviously His(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) Words and The Holy Spirit which ends Spiritual Suffering, Guaranteed, John 14:27 - "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." - Jesus Christ

I was one of the best Christian Defenders they had, no one unless they trolled would beat me in a debate, hopefully I helped and converted folks to The Truth of The Bible.

Modest, too!

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'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Yep, not the physical book but obviously His(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) Words and The Holy Spirit which ends Spiritual Suffering, Guaranteed, John 14:27 - "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." - Jesus Christ

which in turn ends Physical Suffering.

I'll let you argue with those closer to your age group.

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

Yep, not the physical book but obviously His(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) Words and The Holy Spirit which ends Spiritual Suffering, Guaranteed, John 14:27 - "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." - Jesus Christ

which in turn ends Physical Suffering.

I'll let you argue with those closer to your age group.

Why the insult? I'm defending The Bible and I did it well, you should be with me, what I do to you? I destroyed The problem of suffering(Thanks to The Lord Jesus Christ), this should be good news to you. who cares how old I am? see now I'm dead on this website, on ChristianForums I would destroy all man made anti-Biblical doctrines well, and others would agree until I gave my age, then they used that against me, if I kept my age secret there would be no rebuttals as my arguments are rock solid, The Holy Spirit Inspired me.

I'll Leave you with this 1 Timothy 4,

4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

11 Command and teach these things. 12 Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

15 Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

I was one of the best Christian Defenders they had, no one unless they trolled would beat me in a debate, hopefully I helped and converted folks to The Truth of The Bible.

Modest, too!

I'm not trying to be arrogant, just telling The Truth, everything I get I know it's from The Holy Spirit, He has given it to me from His Word, my heart, science, history, logic, philosophy, physics etc and anyone else can do this too.

Guaranteed if everyone had all my arguments(which is basically a culmination of the works Alvin Plantinga, William Lane Craig, Allen Rich, C.S. Lewis, and a bunch of other Christian Defenders, Christian websites, Bible Studies, and from The Holy Spirit) then you will never lose a debate, if I could counter trolling(aka daveellis on ChristianForums) well then I would never lose a debate, but based on Facts alone, I not to boast, always win because God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) exists and The Bible is True.

I’m beginning to see the problem. In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions. If I may make a suggestion, prior to supplying a reply, take some time to think about what you want to say. You can even prepare your response, come back in a few hours and tweak it a bit, then the next day take a final look to see if there is anything you think should be worded differently. Once done, post. Of course, you don’t have to, but I feel it would help.

Being right isn’t a contest and no one listens to the loud mouth in the room. For instance, I could easily pick apart much of what you posted, but I have not and I do not intend to. Why? Because I know if you stick around for any amount of time and actually listen to what people have to say, you will learn and as a result, your views will change, likely for the better. But the choice is yours.

Finally, the fact you are younger in no way says you are dumb, but when someone says they will not debate you, it’s probably the result of their experience and your inexperience creating an environment which is not set up for success. In other words, you theorize, they know. Not your fault, it’s just the way things are. As you grow, learn and experience, this will change.

I’m beginning to see the problem. In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions.

This is the same type of stuff I got from a calvinist when I refuted penal substitution at the ChristianForums, I won the debate and some guy belittled me, said I was proud, said he was a Christian for 40 years to boast at me, etc, please don't go that route.

I didn't even get to my emotions like folks at the ChristianForums did, there I got abrasive with "atheist" since proof, evidence, and Facts didn't stop their denial, only when I presented it in an abrasive manner which I kind of regret and am sorry for was when they gave up.

Nothing personal but do you suffer from I.O.R.A.S. which is known as, Incapable Of Refuting Anything Syndrome?

So, are you just_some_guy or that other guy who was here before him? Because you sound awfully familiar. The exact same subject and quotes. Wow.

But it's your choice, what you do is yours. Not anyone else's.

I'm the same 18 year old Born Again Nondenominational Christian who has interest in Eastern Orthodox Church and goes to a Catholic Church every Sunday from Christianforums who was banned unjustly from, ChristianForums. like Amanda Bynes would say in AskAshley, That's me!

I’m beginning to see the problem. In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions. If I may make a suggestion, prior to supplying a reply, take some time to think about what you want to say. You can even prepare your response, come back in a few hours and tweak it a bit, then the next day take a final look to see if there is anything you think should be worded differently. Once done, post. Of course, you don’t have to, but I feel it would help.

This disarmed me and I applaud you for bringing up the importance of civility.

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If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs. If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

One issue that I think people often overlook in regards to this topic is that free-will is not as easy a thing to assert as we would like to think. It is one of the ultimate philosophical debates that people of all worldviews have been debating for ages and ages. Ultimately, the Christian solution to the problem of suffering can be answered by free-will. Well what if someone does not believe in free-will? What if they assert that all actions are merely the result of stimuli in our brains reacting to its environment, that the element of choice is merely an illusion? Just saying the answer is free-will makes one helluva philsophical leap by assuming that free-will exists.

One issue that I think people often overlook in regards to this topic is that free-will is not as easy a thing to assert as we would like to think. It is one of the ultimate philosophical debates that people of all worldviews have been debating for ages and ages. Ultimately, the Christian solution to the problem of suffering can be answered by free-will. Well what if someone does not believe in free-will? What if they assert that all actions are merely the result of stimuli in our brains reacting to its environment, that the element of choice is merely an illusion? Just saying the answer is free-will makes one helluva philsophical leap by assuming that free-will exists.

If free will is the illusion of brain stimuli reacting to environment, and one intentionally changes his environment to stimulate his brain differently, is that an act of free will? Maybe changing our stimulus is the only act of will we can do.

I’m beginning to see the problem. In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions.

This is the same type of stuff I got from a calvinist when I refuted penal substitution at the ChristianForums, I won the debate and some guy belittled me, said I was proud, said he was a Christian for 40 years to boast at me, etc, please don't go that route.

I didn't even get to my emotions like folks at the ChristianForums did, there I got abrasive with "atheist" since proof, evidence, and Facts didn't stop their denial, only when I presented it in an abrasive manner which I kind of regret and am sorry for was when they gave up.

I’m beginning to see the problem. In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions.

This is the same type of stuff I got from a calvinist when I refuted penal substitution at the ChristianForums, I won the debate and some guy belittled me, said I was proud, said he was a Christian for 40 years to boast at me, etc, please don't go that route.

I didn't even get to my emotions like folks at the ChristianForums did, there I got abrasive with "atheist" since proof, evidence, and Facts didn't stop their denial, only when I presented it in an abrasive manner which I kind of regret and am sorry for was when they gave up.

I’m beginning to see the problem. In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions.

This is the same type of stuff I got from a calvinist when I refuted penal substitution at the ChristianForums, I won the debate and some guy belittled me, said I was proud, said he was a Christian for 40 years to boast at me, etc, please don't go that route.

I didn't even get to my emotions like folks at the ChristianForums did, there I got abrasive with "atheist" since proof, evidence, and Facts didn't stop their denial, only when I presented it in an abrasive manner which I kind of regret and am sorry for was when they gave up.

also how do you know about me? were/are you at ChristianForums too?

It seems I was correct.

What do you mean?

I mean, you started this thread with what, 10 posts, and began immediately with how you were unjustly ejected from another thread, which itself is not a bad thing. I suggested a course of action in the hopes it would benefit you in future internet interaction. Of course, you are not required to take my advice, but your follow up explains how you were smarter than some adult, defeated him in a debate, and became defensive about what I know or don't know about you. Now, I am just guessing, but I imagine you probably didn’t either understand what he was saying or were too closed off to care.

Things you should consider. Discussion here is not necessarily a debate. Debates have winners and losers. This is a place where we exchange knowledge, understanding, and ideas. There is no need for a winner or a loser. To be fair, we all get a little heated and lack a little self-control now and again. Just relax and enjoy the ride here on OC.net. There is a lot to learn.

I’m beginning to see the problem. In your youthful zeal, you ignore civility and haven’t yet learned to curb your emotions.

This is the same type of stuff I got from a calvinist when I refuted penal substitution at the ChristianForums, I won the debate and some guy belittled me, said I was proud, said he was a Christian for 40 years to boast at me, etc, please don't go that route.

I didn't even get to my emotions like folks at the ChristianForums did, there I got abrasive with "atheist" since proof, evidence, and Facts didn't stop their denial, only when I presented it in an abrasive manner which I kind of regret and am sorry for was when they gave up.

also how do you know about me? were/are you at ChristianForums too?

It seems I was correct.

What do you mean?

I mean, you started this thread with what, 10 posts, and began immediately with how you were unjustly ejected from another thread, which itself is not a bad thing. I suggested a course of action in the hopes it would benefit you in future internet interaction. Of course, you are not required to take my advice, but your follow up explains how you were smarter than some adult, defeated him in a debate, and became defensive about what I know or don't know about you. Now, I am just guessing, but I imagine you probably didn’t either understand what he was saying or were too closed off to care.

Things you should consider. Discussion here is not necessarily a debate. Debates have winners and losers. This is a place where we exchange knowledge, understanding, and ideas. There is no need for a winner or a loser. To be fair, we all get a little heated and lack a little self-control now and again. Just relax and enjoy the ride here on OC.net. There is a lot to learn.

I wasn't talking Denomination specific, but stuff contrary to The Gospel such as calvinism, "atheism", "agnostics", "islam", "buddhism" etc that requires a Winner/Loser and that with The Holy Spirit, only us Christians can win.

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

I think it would be nice if we returned to the original topic, since it is a rather interesting one IMO

Generally, SBC94, I think there are some points, where you need to elaborate. For example, you mention, that God hasn't ended suffering yet, because it is not a part of his plan. If this opinion stands alone, it might lead people to assume that God is cruel, since since He has the power to end suffering but chooses not to do so, because it doesn't fit into His arrangements.

Also, you mention the "natural function" of humanity, but doesn't explain what exactly characterises this function. An atheist might not even acknowledge that humanity has a prober function.

Your argument that death disproves naturalism, seems a little strange to me. Creation follows the laws of nature, which God has given them to follow. The fact that He can choose to abolish the laws, for example by resurrecting the dead or by miracles is an entirely different subject. One of the main beliefs of naturalism is exactly that everything can be explained scientifically, and most naturalists would therefore (I assume) refuse the entire concept of the Resurrection.

Generally, what you have posted is a theological argument, this is completely fine and there's nothing wrong with it, but it contains very little factual evidence to your arguments. That doesn't necessarily make them false, but if you're having a discussion with a person, who, doesn't even belief in God, it will be very hard to convince him by theological statements alone. My advice would be to try and elaborate on your statements a bit more.

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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

+1

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My anime double posts here.

^^^ It's been so long since I've been here I literally have no idea what that is even referring to o_O

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

All you have posted are your own assertions. You have not shown that you actually understand what other people have written or said; you have just posted a list of names and claimed that your words are the "culmination of geniuses". Claiming to be such a "culmination" by the way can be interpreted as claiming to be superior to others, by the way.

What work of, for example, C.S. Lewis have you read and how do you know that you really understand what he wrote please?

It is not a "fact" that others will not "win". If you do not really take part in an argument but just insist that you are right and others are wrong then there is nothing to be "won"; you will not have actually engaged in any sort of proving of your particular ideas. You haven't shown what "arguments" you are using and from the posts that you have made here and on other sites, there haven't been any arguments or reasoning, just you making statements and not considering any challenges or disagreements.

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

theological breakthrough!!!!!

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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

Many years Peter!

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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

I think it would be nice if we returned to the original topic, since it is a rather interesting one IMO

The original topic, AISI, is NOT the problem of suffering. The original topic is just a bunch of rhetoric SavedByChrist regurgitated here in an effort to boast of his "exploits" on another forum. As to the subject matter of the OP, I doubt that SavedByChrist really understands anything of it.

Problem of Suffering Refuted, Permanently Problem of Suffering only exists for "atheism", making "atheism" false.

Now I wrote this at the un-Biblical man indoctrined ran, "Christian"Forums.com, however after being banned they took I assume almost all my post down, so I'm posting here.

Refuting the “problems of suffering” in relation to God, inventing Irrefutable Problem of suffering for “atheism”

Lets knock this out the park fast and quick, after Newtown shootings my OCD spiked and I got intrusive thoughts, so I went into debates in my head refuting the problem of suffering, and in my head I actually refuted it in a new manner.

So lets refute the “problem of suffering”When I say God, I mean The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.(for OCD’s sake)1, God has no obligation to end suffering/evil.2, Without suffering therefore is no evil, and the choice to do evil must exist for free will, and free will must exist in order for human beings with consciousness to exist.3, God has ended suffering with The Bible however humanity holds it back(For example Jesus Christ(God Himself) told us to share our possessions, if we all actually listened no one would be straving, guaranteed.)4, God must allow suffering to prevent further suffering, why? If a human has no experienced suffering, they(when they get to Heaven) will be like Adam, Eve and The Angels, they can sin, thus starting sin and suffering all over again, sending themselves to Hell, to solve this, God would allow the human to suffer(best to suffer a lot, not to sound bad but if you think and continue reading(before I get slandered) why? So that when they get to Heaven /New Earth they do not sin. After experiencing Heaven then looking back, no way anyone would go back to their old ways(Even I Born Again am incapable of going back to my old ways because of my experience with Jesus Christ(God) on this earth, imagine in Heaven? No way I’d even sin and I’d still have my free will. Like a poor man given the biggest mansion, you’d think the poor guy would mess that up and go back to the streets again? No, and now Heaven is inexplicable, so no one will sin. For this reason(4) alone suffering is a necessity.5, God already choose a moment in time when He will return. Why doesn’t He end suffering now? Well why not 1000 years ago? Here’s a few reasons,

1, Not according to plan2, Wants to create a lot of beings as most likely in Heaven new beings will not be created and suffering prevents us from sinning in Heaven(4)

3, He wanted you to exist(which means in order to exist you’d have to suffer, and added with 4 that secures you for eternity)

4,6, Jesus Christ(God Himself) didn’t deserve to die, yet humanity killed Him for no deserving reason, only because He is Perfect. And He went through The suffering, so God isn’t lavishing while we suffer, He suffered and suffers(He feels our pain) with us, but even He was He is still perfect.

8, humanity causes it’s own suffering. And it’s temporary, those who go to Heaven with Jesus Christ will be there for eternity, seems long, but fair.

9, God must end all suffering at once(everyone suffers by the way one way or the other), ending some isn’t fair, etc, God is fair, therefore ends either none or all suffering at once, He is all graceful and merciful therefore ends all suffering at once, which is basically The Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

With that proven, the problem of suffering against God is nonexistent, There’s no problem of suffering. There’s the solution of suffering, which is, prevents future suffering and is only temporary.

Now introducing the problem of suffering for “naturalism”/”atheism”

Suffering exists, and is a wrong, wrong means an improper function, we’re not supposed to function like this, therefore there has to be a solution to this improper function, under “naturalism” there is no solution, improper functions have solutions as returning to the original(or better) state is the proper function. “naturalism” is incapable of morally and emotionally bringing one to the natural/normal/proper function, therefore “naturalism” is false. God can do this, therefore God must necessarily exist. If a theory for a producer cannot bring back it’s production to the original state, then that isn’t the producer, as the producer can create the original state, therefore return it to it’s original state.

Which reminds me, Death also disproves “naturalism”, if “naturalism” were true then nature would be capable of Resurrecting someone from the dead just like starting life, according to a lot of “naturalist” this is impossible, so those that hold to that view lose it.

2, under “naturalism” free will wouldn’t exist, therefore good nor evil would exist, nor even consciousness.

Therefore “naturalism” is false and The Problem of Suffering and Evil is only for “atheism”

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) is Irrefutable and has no problems, while “naturalism” is totally refuteable and has many problems, which means God existing is more probable than “naturalism” so belief can only go to God, saying or believing otherwise is a delusion.

So yes the anger my OCD and intrusive thoughts enraged in me caused me to further kill “naturalism”

God Bless those who are mourning over the deaths of those innocent children, they will see them again one day, and that’s not just a guarantee but a fact. The More I think about it, the more “naturalism” cannot be true.

Life doesn’t end at the grave, so don’t be afraid, God allows suffering for good reason, so there won’t be anymore suffering. Also one more argument that is a fact, God is all fair, therefore those who say “where was God during 9/11 and Sandy Hook/Newtown.?” , God is all fair, so in order for God to have prevented those events, He would have to prevent all evil events, which would basically mean Jesus Christ Second Coming. The pain of those who suffered will be no more. Remember this, God allows suffering, but does not cause it. He is All Good therefore causes no unrighteous suffering and since all good will prevent further suffering, in order to do that suffering needs to be allowed, so when Heaven comes no one rebels again.

Added with the fact that humanity can't be hypocrites, here's one exposure. we can if we all wanted to make sure everyone is fed, people say, why didn't God feed the starving in Africa? I cite Matthew 7:5, you hypocrite! you can easily feed people in Africa. God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) commands us to give to the poor, this offers us Repentance, people say God is everywhere, why doesn't He help? Because humans are everywhere too, remember Genesis, God put us in charge of the earth, we're supposed to be homekeepers, make sure God's Creation is good and we don't, God already gave the food, time to share it. we(including me, I'm not going to be hypocritical as that would be pharisee like) don't do enough, then we blame God when He provided it all and answers prayers. with sin, stupidity, laziness, greed, etc the things we whin about will never be fixed, The Prayers been answered? God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) says Hello! He's provided the food and The Bible, and sustains us, and He will end all suffering one day, want suffering to go away sooner? Do something!

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

To win debates that win souls. Look at Stephen, Truth has to be told.

Stephen did not engage the Pharisees in a debate, and you are not a martyr.

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

To win debates that win souls. Look at Stephen, Truth has to be told.

Stephen did not engage the Pharisees in a debate, and you are not a martyr.

+2!

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My anime double posts here.

^^^ It's been so long since I've been here I literally have no idea what that is even referring to o_O

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

This coming from an Odox? What were those ecumenical debates councils about? What guided the decisions of those councils?

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

This coming from an Odox? What were those ecumenical debates councils about? What guided the decisions of those councils?

This sort of thing as much as anything is making it difficult for you to be heard…or to hear, for that matter.

As a forensic exercise it is possible to win or lose debates, but convincing someone of of something, especially of those things that touch upon the faith, is not usually possible in a forensic contest. Losers whose egos are entangled go away lick their wounds gather new ammo and when they feel confident … or sufficiently goaded, they return.

May I suggest ceasing altogether with trying to "win" anything with respect to debate. To win a brother who errs requires a different strategy altogether…you have to take him seriously, and not just paint him as a target to be hit or missed. You must invest in a relationship of sorts. You must be open to his questions and criticisms and an honest "I don't know/understand myself" will go a long way in establishing your integrity as someone more interested in the other person than yourself. Next, be very reticent in "establishing" your own authority. As much as possible where a question of what the Church teaches or believes comes up always point outside yourself, first to Saints and Fathers and to priests and bishops…living ones…contactable ones…because these…not us have the ordaining grace of the Holy Spirit to teach and speak for the Church. Whether or not they always do well in this regard is another question…so choose your points of reference with care…but still choose them point back to teachers of the Church so whoever you are engaged with doesn't just have to take your word for this that or the other, but can talk to someone in the Church who has some authority to speak and can either verify, refine, or refute what you've said. If they consistently back up what you say, then the perception of the authenticity of your opinion as expressive of the Orthodox faith grows, and where you are refuted, you have a further chance to grow and learn in humility.

The problem with "debate" is that concerning the faith, the point is to win souls, not arguments, then there is little subtly to it, for by it's very nature it puts the other guy in a defensive "prove your position" posture. Everything you say is viewed tactically before it's truthfulness is ever, if ever, considered. It's all darts trying to get over the wall…all aimed at making them "lose". All that accomplishes is to make people turtle until the "treat" goes away..unless of course, you've underestimated your opponent…and it is suddenly you looking foolish and having to turtle…until you've had some time to rearm and refine your arguments so that you are sure to "win" the next time. This tactic rarely if ever works…and it can flip on you and embarrass you in a heartbeat with the wrong opponent (either they overmaster you…or you so offend them…they turn off even further from anything you have to say)

In order to confront people with the "Truth" so that it digs and grips and convicts, like St. Stephen…It helps to be so deeply steeped in the prayer and the Holy Spirit that every word is practically a "made without hands" icon in and of itself…that the Holy Spirit speaks in and through you with vast experiential authority. And authority is precisely what you lack…I don't mean the authority of permission…but rather the authority of apostolic level experience and encounter with Christ. You are no font of direct encounter with Christ like the presence of a living saint…perhaps one day, God willing, but not yet…and neither are most of us. Hence we refer back to those who have greater wisdom and authority than ourselves. That said, if you ever do find yourself speaking with a similar depth of authority as did St. Stephen, it is likely that soon thereafter you will have opportunity to share in the fruits of such a divine conversation, when the men whose hearts you've pricked try to silence the voice of God through you with stones…or reasonable approximations thereof.

If you want to develop and refine a encounter style for "winning" souls then let me suggest a very ancient and indeed apostolic one. Stop trying to conquer your opponent…and go fishing instead. Present the faith as faithfully as you can and yourself as honestly as you are able…and draw them in…lead them to a place where they are willing to "taste and see". From that point on, it is up to God…not you to set the hook.

And I do not say this idly…I know someone, a frequent poster on Christian forums of one sort or another for several years. Once he discovered fishing over debating he has since seen at least 11 people to date that he knows of become Orthodox through his conversations with them…and the bulk of it was point them to saints, living saints of the present and recent past, and getting them to a place they were willing to visit a Divine Liturgy and talk to a priest.

Oh..one last point with the fishing metaphor…it's not like buck hunting, you don't pick the one you decide to go after and "convince" of the truth. You don't know who is or who is not ready to hear…you put your line/net in the water and wait for the one or ones whom the Lord brings to you.

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

To win debates that win souls. Look at Stephen, Truth has to be told.

Stephen did not engage the Pharisees in a debate, and you are not a martyr.

Actually it sort of was, Pharisees were wrong so Stephan by The Holy Spirit countered them with Truth, that is sort oof argumentative, his point would never get anywhere had he not refuted them and defended Jesus Christ.

I ask you in a debate between a Christian and an "atheist" will not The Holy Spirit make sure The Christian wins in order to gain others Salvation? of course, when it comes to "atheist" you have to win debates to win their souls, very simple.

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

To win debates that win souls. Look at Stephen, Truth has to be told.

Stephen did not engage the Pharisees in a debate, and you are not a martyr.

Actually it sort of was, Pharisees were wrong so Stephan by The Holy Spirit countered them with Truth, that is sort oof argumentative, his point would never get anywhere had he not refuted them and defended Jesus Christ.

I ask you in a debate between a Christian and an "atheist" will not The Holy Spirit make sure The Christian wins in order to gain others Salvation? of course, when it comes to "atheist" you have to win debates to win their souls, very simple.

No, it's not that simple. You don't have to win debates to win their souls, especially when you make an ass of yourself as you did at both AtheistForums.com and AtheistForums.org.

regarding substaining from specific foods. Do not let anyone tell you what you should be eating. But there is nothing wrong with fasting if it makes you feel good, and healthier. But the notion that you have to do it, because everyone else is doing for thousands of years, is ridiculous. You shouldn't do something because it was always done. You should do it or not do it, because it helps you improve as a being, both physically and spiritually, especially spiritually. But the again you shouldn't abuse your body either, it's the only one you get to live with. If you destroy it, you will have to explain to the almighty about this sin of yours as well. Besides all the others. Should you have any.

regarding substaining from specific foods. Do not let anyone tell you what you should be eating. But there is nothing wrong with fasting if it makes you feel good, and healthier. But the notion that you have to do it, because everyone else is doing for thousands of years, is ridiculous. You shouldn't do something because it was always done. You should do it or not do it, because it helps you improve as a being, both physically and spiritually, especially spiritually. But the again you shouldn't abuse your body either, it's the only one you get to live with. If you destroy it, you will have to explain to the almighty about this sin of yours as well. Besides all the others. Should you have any.

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

To win debates that win souls. Look at Stephen, Truth has to be told.

Stephen did not engage the Pharisees in a debate, and you are not a martyr.

Actually it sort of was, Pharisees were wrong so Stephan by The Holy Spirit countered them with Truth, that is sort oof argumentative, his point would never get anywhere had he not refuted them and defended Jesus Christ.

I ask you in a debate between a Christian and an "atheist" will not The Holy Spirit make sure The Christian wins in order to gain others Salvation? of course, when it comes to "atheist" you have to win debates to win their souls, very simple.

No, it's not that simple. You don't have to win debates to win their souls, especially when you make an ass of yourself as you did at both AtheistForums.com and AtheistForums.org.

Go ahead and defend "atheist"s downward spiral to death, I will be winning debates(because of The Holy Spirit) and leaving them no excuse but to come to Jesus Christ, where they will get from Him Eternal Life.

Go ahead and defend "atheist"s downward spiral to death, I will be winning debates(because of The Holy Spirit) and leaving them no excuse but to come to Jesus Christ, where they will get from Him Eternal Life.

PetertheAleut and I have crossed swords many a time here, but there's nothing in what he's posted here which is defending atheism. But you, OTOH, are full of your own misguided greatness and misplaced zeal. Do not take the Holy Spirit's name in vain.

Go ahead and defend "atheist"s downward spiral to death, I will be winning debates(because of The Holy Spirit) and leaving them no excuse but to come to Jesus Christ, where they will get from Him Eternal Life.

PetertheAleut and I have crossed swords many a time here, but there's nothing in what he's posted here which is defending atheism. But you, OTOH, are full of your own misguided greatness and misplaced zeal. Do not take the Holy Spirit's name in vain.

Go ahead and defend "atheist"s downward spiral to death, I will be winning debates(because of The Holy Spirit) and leaving them no excuse but to come to Jesus Christ, where they will get from Him Eternal Life.

PetertheAleut and I have crossed swords many a time here, but there's nothing in what he's posted here which is defending atheism. But you, OTOH, are full of your own misguided greatness and misplaced zeal. Do not take the Holy Spirit's name in vain.

How did I take His name in vain? Please do not slander.

You said the Holy Spirit would guide you to win debates. You aren't winning anything, so please check your ego at the door.

It kind of seems like you are using the Holy Spirit as if He were a pokemon. I know that sounds silly, but that's the first example that came to mind. Using God as if He is supposed to fight all of your battles for you. It's very sad. You can win all the debates in the world, and not a single person can come to Christ. In the end, what is more important?

I use to be the same way. I would get into heated debates with Protestants. In the end, though, there was no convincing done, and I ended up making the other side more set in their beliefs than before. I was stupid, and all I cared about was being right and being a walking encyclopedia. But I think now, God has taught me to just care for others and correct gently, if need be.

God bless you, my friend

« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 10:08:56 AM by Eastern Mind »

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My anime double posts here.

^^^ It's been so long since I've been here I literally have no idea what that is even referring to o_O

Go ahead and defend "atheist"s downward spiral to death, I will be winning debates(because of The Holy Spirit) and leaving them no excuse but to come to Jesus Christ, where they will get from Him Eternal Life.

PetertheAleut and I have crossed swords many a time here, but there's nothing in what he's posted here which is defending atheism. But you, OTOH, are full of your own misguided greatness and misplaced zeal. Do not take the Holy Spirit's name in vain.

How did I take His name in vain? Please do not slander.

You said the Holy Spirit would guide you to win debates. You aren't winning anything, so please check your ego at the door.

Prove how I lose debates, every time I post Proof, Evidence, and Facts for God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) no one can refute them, The Holy Spirit guides me with truth and wisdom, I believe in Him.

Prove how I lose debates, every time I post Proof, Evidence, and Facts for God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) no one can refute them, The Holy Spirit guides me with truth and wisdom, I believe in Him.

There is nothing to win here, because there is no debate. Nobody is engaging you. You are soliloquising, and I, for one, am just mildly amused. Like this is our version of Hyde Park Corner.

It would be to everyone's advantage if you kept quiet for a while and read around a bit, to get an idea of the community you are invading entering.

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'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Go ahead and defend "atheist"s downward spiral to death, I will be winning debates(because of The Holy Spirit) and leaving them no excuse but to come to Jesus Christ, where they will get from Him Eternal Life.

PetertheAleut and I have crossed swords many a time here, but there's nothing in what he's posted here which is defending atheism. But you, OTOH, are full of your own misguided greatness and misplaced zeal. Do not take the Holy Spirit's name in vain.

How did I take His name in vain? Please do not slander.

You said the Holy Spirit would guide you to win debates. You aren't winning anything, so please check your ego at the door.

Prove how I lose debates, every time I post Proof, Evidence, and Facts for God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) no one can refute them, The Holy Spirit guides me with truth and wisdom, I believe in Him.

I can prove your entire world view wrong with one simple question, which you will not be able to answer. However, I am generous so I will give you three different questions, and you can choose which one you like most:

1) What shape is purple?2) What does a G7 chord on a guitar taste like?3) How old is the dust on top of the layer of dark matter on top of my computer mouse?

Prove how I lose debates, every time I post Proof, Evidence, and Facts for God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) no one can refute them, The Holy Spirit guides me with truth and wisdom, I believe in Him.

You are not posting "Proof", Evidence and Facts" You are posting mere statements that are not backed up. You are making statements of your own ideas without explanation. You are saying that it is the Holy Spirit that is the director of your opinions and that is already a claim without support. I could just in the same way post that statement for myself or that you are not guided by the Holy Spirit. Either one would be an assertion and not any sort of "Fact" without some sort of backup. You have not proved that it is the Spirit that guides you, to be blunt, you just claim that it is so.

In the New Testament it was the case that even when they heard the words of St. Paul and his companion, who I think it can be agreed was guided by the spirit at least sometimes, the Bereans looked for support. And they were praised for this. (Acts 17).

In debates there is an exchange of ideas, support and analysis. It is not one person making claims and then declaring that she/he has "won".

Here is a page from the University of Virginia on the "The 9 Principles of Good Debating"

3, God has ended suffering with The Bible however humanity holds it back(For example Jesus Christ(God Himself) told us to share our possessions, if we all actually listened no one would be straving, guaranteed.)

Do you really believe God ended suffering with the Bible?

Well, maybe not ended suffering, but it has been discussed in the Bible. For example, what is one of the lessons of the Book of Job? Is it not that God blesses those who endure suffering , and that although we may not know exactly the reason for our suffering, nevertheless in the end, we hope for eternal salvation and joy where there will be no sorrow.

It would be to everyone's advantage if you kept quiet for a while and read around a bit, to get an idea of the community you are invading entering.

I agree that SBC94 has not shown that he knows much or anything about EO just for starters.

He's 18, if I remember correctly. Ergo, he knows everything (but not quite as much as a 16 or 17 year old).

I've encountered some pretty smart 18-year-olds here and at other fora who are intelligent, reasonable and quite capable of holding a dialogue. So I'm not cutting SBC94 any slack just because of his age.

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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

3) How old is the dust on top of the layer of dark matter on top of my computer mouse?

No older than the time you used it last passed. You destroy the structure of layers of dark matter with your hand every time you use your mouse and the dust moves.

Quote

I can prove your entire world view wrong with one simple question, which you will not be able to answer. However, I am generous so I will give you three different questions, and you can choose which one you like most:

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Prove how I lose debates, every time I post Proof, Evidence, and Facts for God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) no one can refute them, The Holy Spirit guides me with truth and wisdom, I believe in Him.

You are not posting "Proof", Evidence and Facts" You are posting mere statements that are not backed up. You are making statements of your own ideas without explanation. You are saying that it is the Holy Spirit that is the director of your opinions and that is already a claim without support. I could just in the same way post that statement for myself or that you are not guided by the Holy Spirit. Either one would be an assertion and not any sort of "Fact" without some sort of backup. You have not proved that it is the Spirit that guides you, to be blunt, you just claim that it is so.

In the New Testament it was the case that even when they heard the words of St. Paul and his companion, who I think it can be agreed was guided by the spirit at least sometimes, the Bereans looked for support. And they were praised for this. (Acts 17).

In debates there is an exchange of ideas, support and analysis. It is not one person making claims and then declaring that she/he has "won".

Here is a page from the University of Virginia on the "The 9 Principles of Good Debating"

I don't claim to win, I just win, why? because the opponent is incapable of refuting me.

Also the points, proofs, evidence, and Facts all lead to the inescapable conclusion that I posit, if not then please by all means prove that I didn't win, all the person has to do is refute me, otherwise I am well in my right to say I factually won the debate.

It kind of seems like you are using the Holy Spirit as if He were a pokemon.

It seems like you are slandering, which is not of The Holy Spirit.

I know that sounds silly, but that's the first example that came to mind. Using God as if He is supposed to fight all of your battles for you.

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) wants to fight all our battles against evil("atheism" being one of them)

It's very sad.

It's very sad that you claim to be a Christian yet are against someone trying to Preach and Spread The Bible and its Truth.

You can win all the debates in the world, and not a single person can come to Christ. In the end, what is more important.

I use to be the same way. I would get into heated debates with Protestants. In the end, though, there was no convincing done, and I ended up making the other side more set in their beliefs than before. I was stupid, and all I cared about was being right and being a walking encyclopedia.

you lack faith, with faith as Jesus Christ said you could move mountains.

But I think now, God has taught me to just care for others and correct gently, if need be.

God bless you, my friend

Nope God is expecting every follower of His to Preach and Spread The Gospel.

You could win every debate and yet have not one person come to Christ.

I agree, that is therefore a personal rebellion problem in which debates cannot help, what I do as other Theologians do is debate The Fact of God's existence, that it becomes irrefutable, they will have no excuse, there then if they make excuses prove personal reasons.

It kind of seems like you are using the Holy Spirit as if He were a pokemon.

It seems like you are slandering, which is not of The Holy Spirit.

I know that sounds silly, but that's the first example that came to mind. Using God as if He is supposed to fight all of your battles for you.

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) wants to fight all our battles against evil("atheism" being one of them)

It's very sad.

It's very sad that you claim to be a Christian yet are against someone trying to Preach and Spread The Bible and its Truth.

You can win all the debates in the world, and not a single person can come to Christ. In the end, what is more important.

I use to be the same way. I would get into heated debates with Protestants. In the end, though, there was no convincing done, and I ended up making the other side more set in their beliefs than before. I was stupid, and all I cared about was being right and being a walking encyclopedia.

you lack faith, with faith as Jesus Christ said you could move mountains.

But I think now, God has taught me to just care for others and correct gently, if need be.

God bless you, my friend

Nope God is expecting every follower of His to Preach and Spread The Gospel.

To spread the Gospel, yes. To start and win every debate thrown as us, no. I speak from experience; you could present every fact and be 100% right, and still do a world of hurt, because you are so focused on being right, that you can't stop and try to show them Christ. True, one could use a debate to witness, but many times, for me at least, I was less concerned about the person and more concerned about being "right." But I feel you will see this over time. God bless you

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My anime double posts here.

^^^ It's been so long since I've been here I literally have no idea what that is even referring to o_O

It kind of seems like you are using the Holy Spirit as if He were a pokemon.

It seems like you are slandering, which is not of The Holy Spirit.

I know that sounds silly, but that's the first example that came to mind. Using God as if He is supposed to fight all of your battles for you.

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) wants to fight all our battles against evil("atheism" being one of them)

It's very sad.

It's very sad that you claim to be a Christian yet are against someone trying to Preach and Spread The Bible and its Truth.

You can win all the debates in the world, and not a single person can come to Christ. In the end, what is more important.

I use to be the same way. I would get into heated debates with Protestants. In the end, though, there was no convincing done, and I ended up making the other side more set in their beliefs than before. I was stupid, and all I cared about was being right and being a walking encyclopedia.

you lack faith, with faith as Jesus Christ said you could move mountains.

But I think now, God has taught me to just care for others and correct gently, if need be.

God bless you, my friend

Nope God is expecting every follower of His to Preach and Spread The Gospel.

To spread the Gospel, yes. To start and win every debate thrown as us, no. I speak from experience; you could present every fact and be 100% right, and still do a world of hurt, because you are so focused on being right, that you can't stop and try to show them Christ. True, one could use a debate to witness, but many times, for me at least, I was less concerned about the person and more concerned about being "right." But I feel you will see this over time. God bless you

Actually my debates can bring people to Jesus Christ personally, for example, my permanent rebuttal of The Problem of Suffering, if an "atheist" rebels against God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) because of suffering, that refutes it, and brings them to God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) personally. also by taking all the excuses down, the "atheist" is left with the personal problem, winning debates actually brings them further to Christ as once they realize that God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) exists, they start to slowly put their guard down.

Actually my debates can bring people to Jesus Christ personally, for example, my permanent rebuttal of The Problem of Suffering, if an "atheist" rebels against God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) because of suffering, that refutes it, and brings them to God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) personally. also by taking all the excuses down, the "atheist" is left with the personal problem, winning debates actually brings them further to Christ as once they realize that God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) exists, they start to slowly put their guard down.

So how many atheists have you personally brought to Jesus Christ through this particular argument? Names, contact info?

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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Actually my debates can bring people to Jesus Christ personally, for example, my permanent rebuttal of The Problem of Suffering, if an "atheist" rebels against God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) because of suffering, that refutes it, and brings them to God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) personally. also by taking all the excuses down, the "atheist" is left with the personal problem, winning debates actually brings them further to Christ as once they realize that God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) exists, they start to slowly put their guard down.

So how many atheists have you personally brought to Jesus Christ through this particular argument? Names, contact info?

I don't know, had to have been at least 1, I've debated over the net since last June. the thing that would be their problem is rebellion and presupposition, which no one but The Holy Spirit(God) can help.

I don't know, had to have been at least 1, I've debated over the net since last June. the thing that would be their problem is rebellion and presupposition, which no one but The Holy Spirit(God) can help.

Only one since June, and you don't even know for sure?

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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

No offense, but you seem like somewhat of a narcissist. I get where you are coming from--there was a period when I got all obsessed in the pseudo-philosophy and silly debates and articles of Christian apologetics. Then I found Orthodoxy and realized that simple knowledge of theology already solves like 90% of the atheist worlds' objections because most of their objections and problems with Christianity come from a distorted view of Evangelical-Protestant doctrine. Moving on, nearly like 90% of all modern apologetic arguments for God are based off of ignorance, or, at the very best, are only cases for a deistic god at best, but do nothing to prove that the God of Christianity is true. Hurray, you may have refuted atheism, but now you have to explain why your God is the real God and thus effectively refute millions of other religions which have belief in a God/gods. Your famous "First Cause" thing argument could just as effectively be used for Allah, Oden, Shiva or Zeus. Does nothing to prove the God of Christianity that we profess belief in.

No offense, but you seem like somewhat of a narcissist. I get where you are coming from--there was a period when I got all obsessed in the pseudo-philosophy and silly debates and articles of Christian apologetics. Then I found Orthodoxy and realized that simple knowledge of theology already solves like 90% of the atheist worlds' objections because most of their objections and problems with Christianity come from a distorted view of Evangelical-Protestant doctrine. Moving on, nearly like 90% of all modern apologetic arguments for God are based off of ignorance, or, at the very best, are only cases for a deistic god at best, but do nothing to prove that the God of Christianity is true. Hurray, you may have refuted atheism, but now you have to explain why your God is the real God and thus effectively refute millions of other religions which have belief in a God/gods. Your famous "First Cause" thing argument could just as effectively be used for Allah, Oden, Shiva or Zeus. Does nothing to prove the God of Christianity that we profess belief in.

And in fact, I've heard Hindus give better arguments for why Brahman must be real, than what SBC has given here.

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My anime double posts here.

^^^ It's been so long since I've been here I literally have no idea what that is even referring to o_O

No offense, but you seem like somewhat of a narcissist. I get where you are coming from--there was a period when I got all obsessed in the pseudo-philosophy and silly debates and articles of Christian apologetics. Then I found Orthodoxy and realized that simple knowledge of theology already solves like 90% of the atheist worlds' objections because most of their objections and problems with Christianity come from a distorted view of Evangelical-Protestant doctrine. Moving on, nearly like 90% of all modern apologetic arguments for God are based off of ignorance, or, at the very best, are only cases for a deistic god at best, but do nothing to prove that the God of Christianity is true. Hurray, you may have refuted atheism, but now you have to explain why your God is the real God and thus effectively refute millions of other religions which have belief in a God/gods. Your famous "First Cause" thing argument could just as effectively be used for Allah, Oden, Shiva or Zeus. Does nothing to prove the God of Christianity that we profess belief in.

First Uncaused Cause Fact proves Genesis Correct, since that is correct God can only be The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, 3 Persons, 1 God. also God has to be multiple Persons, otherwise He would be incapable of loving others.

Go ahead and defend "atheist"s downward spiral to death, I will be winning debates(because of The Holy Spirit) and leaving them no excuse but to come to Jesus Christ, where they will get from Him Eternal Life.

PetertheAleut and I have crossed swords many a time here, but there's nothing in what he's posted here which is defending atheism. But you, OTOH, are full of your own misguided greatness and misplaced zeal. Do not take the Holy Spirit's name in vain.

How did I take His name in vain? Please do not slander.

You said the Holy Spirit would guide you to win debates. You aren't winning anything, so please check your ego at the door.

Prove how I lose debates, every time I post Proof, Evidence, and Facts for God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) no one can refute them, The Holy Spirit guides me with truth and wisdom, I believe in Him.

No one wants to refute your "evidence", because you've shown clearly that you merely want to beat others up, not actually debate them.

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

To win debates that win souls. Look at Stephen, Truth has to be told.

Stephen did not engage the Pharisees in a debate, and you are not a martyr.

Actually it sort of was, Pharisees were wrong so Stephan by The Holy Spirit countered them with Truth, that is sort oof argumentative, his point would never get anywhere had he not refuted them and defended Jesus Christ.

I ask you in a debate between a Christian and an "atheist" will not The Holy Spirit make sure The Christian wins in order to gain others Salvation? of course, when it comes to "atheist" you have to win debates to win their souls, very simple.

No, it's not that simple. You don't have to win debates to win their souls, especially when you make an ass of yourself as you did at both AtheistForums.com and AtheistForums.org.

Go ahead and defend "atheist"s downward spiral to death, I will be winning debates(because of The Holy Spirit) and leaving them no excuse but to come to Jesus Christ, where they will get from Him Eternal Life.

BTW, defending the actions a couple of atheist discussion sites have taken against your trolling is not a defense of atheism.

Prove how I lose debates, every time I post Proof, Evidence, and Facts for God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) no one can refute them, The Holy Spirit guides me with truth and wisdom, I believe in Him.

You are not posting "Proof", Evidence and Facts" You are posting mere statements that are not backed up. You are making statements of your own ideas without explanation. You are saying that it is the Holy Spirit that is the director of your opinions and that is already a claim without support. I could just in the same way post that statement for myself or that you are not guided by the Holy Spirit. Either one would be an assertion and not any sort of "Fact" without some sort of backup. You have not proved that it is the Spirit that guides you, to be blunt, you just claim that it is so.

In the New Testament it was the case that even when they heard the words of St. Paul and his companion, who I think it can be agreed was guided by the spirit at least sometimes, the Bereans looked for support. And they were praised for this. (Acts 17).

In debates there is an exchange of ideas, support and analysis. It is not one person making claims and then declaring that she/he has "won".

Here is a page from the University of Virginia on the "The 9 Principles of Good Debating"

I don't claim to win, I just win, why? because the opponent is incapable of refuting me.

What does the word "refute" mean to *you*?

If you discount another person's ideas that you do not agree with, if you do not engage in an actual conversation with the other then you are not in any sort of discussion, debate or argument on any subject. Telling others what they think or know when they don't or putting words in their mouths/posts that aren't theirs is setting up other Human Beings falsely.

Ignoring what others write doesn't make you a "winner".

Quote

Also the points, proofs, evidence, and Facts all lead to the inescapable conclusion that I posit, if not then please by all means prove that I didn't win, all the person has to do is refute me, otherwise I am well in my right to say I factually won the debate.

What is "Proof" to you beyond putting out what seem to be your own opinions without considering what other people really do think or what real science or history say.

What makes you an Authority? Why should we accept your words or your claim that the Holy Spirit guides you? Your statement are not "Proof"

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Nope God is expecting every follower of His to Preach and Spread The Gospel.

And what, specifically, about this particular forum made you think "Hmm! Lots of people here need to know about the Gospel!" ?

I thought and forgive me for my error, that this was like ChristianForums(Which I was banned from, in which there are a multitude of "atheist" to debate).

In what way did you think that OC.net was like that other forum? Did you read much of the posting here before you started? Learning something about a place or group can be helpful in preventing mis-steps and confusion

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

No it doesn't. At the very best, it proves that a Deistic entity (call it "God" if you want) created the universe--and even that is pushing it. But it does nothing to prove that it has to be the God of Christianity or that Genesis is true. You ignored the point entirely.

Quote

...since that is correct God can only be The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, 3 Persons, 1 God. also God has to be multiple Persons, otherwise He would be incapable of loving others.

And how is this relevent to your first cause principle at all? Whether or not the God or gods "love us" is irrelevant to the creation of the universe. For all we know, they/it/He could have created us just to suffer because He's full of hate or created us for His own amusement.

How do you know? You weren't part of the STURP team that examined it in 1978 or the experts that did carbon dating in 19.Mere statements are not "Proof" What studies and tests do you know have been done on it?

Quote

Faulty Carbon testing thousands of years behind

I could make a flat assertion like "No it isn't". But instead I'll ask if you know and understand what is involved in Radiocarbon Dating?

Quote

Caused by an X-ray like UV light, not forged

29 AD Pontius Pilate Coin on eye

Jerusalem Pollen from March/April

Looks like Historical Jesus Christ

crown of thorns

crucified

right side stabbed

flogged

Burial Cloth.

Mere statements without any support. I can look things up and do research and I've done some. There is some disagreement on just what is shown and how the image was created. Here's an example on possible coins:

Do you plan on copying everything you posted before at christianforums.com, or just the long ones?

Maybe, have good stuff, that website was wrong, banned me permanently for some minor mistakes(a few one liners against anti-premartial sex-ist, calvinist "agnostics" and "atheist" which I apologized for) yet they let people who are bigoted(one "atheist" personally compared me to westboro and when I asked for proof, he stayed shut, reported him for it and he I believe is still on that website)

I was one of the best Christian Defenders they had, no one unless they trolled would beat me in a debate, hopefully I helped and converted folks to The Truth of The Bible.

Sometimes we do not see ourselves and others as we really are.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Yep, not the physical book but obviously His(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) Words and The Holy Spirit which ends Spiritual Suffering, Guaranteed, John 14:27 - "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." - Jesus Christ

which in turn ends Physical Suffering.

I'll let you argue with those closer to your age group.

Why the insult? I'm defending The Bible and I did it well, you should be with me, what I do to you? I destroyed The problem of suffering(Thanks to The Lord Jesus Christ), this should be good news to you. who cares how old I am? see now I'm dead on this website, on ChristianForums I would destroy all man made anti-Biblical doctrines well, and others would agree until I gave my age, then they used that against me, if I kept my age secret there would be no rebuttals as my arguments are rock solid, The Holy Spirit Inspired me.

I'll Leave you with this 1 Timothy 4,

4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

11 Command and teach these things. 12 Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

15 Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

My friend, you have not been ordained by St. Paul like St. Timothy, nor have you been called by God like the Holy Prophet Jeremiah. You may think so, but it does not appear that way. You have a lot to learn. The first lesson is to become a disciple, silence and humility are first required. That is way more impressive and produces finer results than unsolicited arguments.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Are you sure you've even begun to study Orthodox Christianity?

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

Brilliant orators are become speechless as fish...

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Folks, we're dealing with a textbook narcissist here. Appealing to reason or civility won't work, even if he were 50, not 18. He's too enthralled by his own awesomeness.

How did I say I'm better than anyone? I attributed my success to The Holy Spirit and the arguments I use are a culmination of geniuses touched by The Holy Spirit. I say you will not win, not to be proud but because it's Fact, ANYONE who uses these arguments, such as William Lane Craig will not lose.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit to win debates or to win souls?

To win debates that win souls. Look at Stephen, Truth has to be told.

A vessel must first be filled in order to pour anything out of it.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

You could win every debate and yet have not one person come to Christ.

I agree, that is therefore a personal rebellion problem in which debates cannot help, what I do as other Theologians do is debate The Fact of God's existence, that it becomes irrefutable, they will have no excuse, there then if they make excuses prove personal reasons.

That is not what the real theologians did.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

No offense, but you seem like somewhat of a narcissist. I get where you are coming from--there was a period when I got all obsessed in the pseudo-philosophy and silly debates and articles of Christian apologetics. Then I found Orthodoxy and realized that simple knowledge of theology already solves like 90% of the atheist worlds' objections because most of their objections and problems with Christianity come from a distorted view of Evangelical-Protestant doctrine. Moving on, nearly like 90% of all modern apologetic arguments for God are based off of ignorance, or, at the very best, are only cases for a deistic god at best, but do nothing to prove that the God of Christianity is true. Hurray, you may have refuted atheism, but now you have to explain why your God is the real God and thus effectively refute millions of other religions which have belief in a God/gods. Your famous "First Cause" thing argument could just as effectively be used for Allah, Oden, Shiva or Zeus. Does nothing to prove the God of Christianity that we profess belief in.

First Uncaused Cause Fact proves Genesis Correct, since that is correct God can only be The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, 3 Persons, 1 God. also God has to be multiple Persons, otherwise He would be incapable of loving others.

Now, The Shroud of Jesus Christ,

No evidence of Forgery

Not a Painting

Faulty Carbon testing thousands of years behind

Caused by an X-ray like UV light, not forged

29 AD Pontius Pilate Coin on eye

Jerusalem Pollen from March/April

Looks like Historical Jesus Christ

crown of thorns

crucified

right side stabbed

flogged

Burial Cloth.

Yeah, we actually have many of those relics, and in 13 days, when the Patriarch of Jerusalem goes to bless the waters of the Jordan River on the commemoration of the Lord's Baptism, the river will reverse its flow--a completely unexplained miracle--as it has every year since 33 AD. So what?

Here's a story for you:

Three young atheists visited Elder Paisios on Mt. Athos and asked him, "We want you to perform a miracle for us so that we'll believe in God." [They might as well have asked for an irrefutable argument. After all, Elder Paisios was a holy man and enlightened by the Holy Spirit.]

So, the elder told them, "Hand me that axe over there."

"What do you want that for, elder?"

"I'm going to chop your heads off and miraculously put them back on," he said, "only don't move. I don't want to get you mixed up."

"We don't want you to do that miracle, Father," they said.

And the elder replied, "God doesn't want us to believe in Him because He is all powerful or works miracles [or even has irrefutable arguments], but because He is so kind."

The lovingkindness of God is rarely if ever shown in debates, or even words. It is shown in deeds. And the objective of these is never to exalt ourselves or, I dare say, even to explicitly glorify God or save anyone. They are just for the sake of love. More people become Christians through acts of love than through any other method--four out of five doctors of the Church agree about this.

I fear for you because you have zeal, but little if any experience in spiritual life. You can do more harm than good through the injudicious application of your or others' ideas.

The sad irony is that, as much as you claim to be a great debater, you will not be swayed by anything anyone here has to say. Fortunately for you, there are on this forum people of real Christian kindness who, though they may never post, will remember you in their prayers.

I commend you to God, who alone knows the heart and how to help.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

If SavedbyChrist has refuted the problem of suffering, why did reading the opening post hurt so much?

perchance to find whether it is nobler to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous claims or by opposing end them.Permanently

only while smashing the titanic ego, one must care not to harm the spirit.

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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

I don't get it, you guys got me feeling down and out like I should give up on Apologetics and just focus on my Spiritual life because I am not good at it. for example, what did I do wrong? I refuted the problem of suffering, not to get benefit from it, anyone can use this argument and take the credit, I wrote it because alot of people deal with the problem of suffering and it could hinder their faith, so I refuted it, making it a nonexistent ostabcle, I say by The Holy Spirit that I did it is because, by The Holy Spirit I did it, He gives us truth and gave me The Truth to logically refute the problem of suffering.

Winning debates, this should be a strive for, if you don't strive to do it you won't win, if you don't Pray you'll never grow(Spiritually), Christianity needs to do what Jesus Christ said, Preach His Word, and that is getting very difficult to do when you have "atheistic" lies being spread, an obstacle to the faith just like sin is, should we give up trying to win debates and proving Christianity is Scientifically, Historically, Philosophically, Logically, Factually, and Personally True and let "atheism" reign? No, same question would be should we stop trying to fight evil(sin) and let sin reign? No.

We ought(me included) to give money to the poor every chance we get, invite them in our homes, try to end sin, but we fail to do so.

We ought to Preach against "atheism", Preach in every streetcorner, the best we can, but we fail to do so.

I don't get it, you guys got me feeling down and out like I should give up on Apologetics and just focus on my Spiritual life because I am not good at it. for example, what did I do wrong? I refuted the problem of suffering, not to get benefit from it, anyone can use this argument and take the credit, I wrote it because alot of people deal with the problem of suffering and it could hinder their faith, so I refuted it, making it a nonexistent ostabcle, I say by The Holy Spirit that I did it is because, by The Holy Spirit I did it, He gives us truth and gave me The Truth to logically refute the problem of suffering.

Winning debates, this should be a strive for, if you don't strive to do it you won't win, if you don't Pray you'll never grow(Spiritually), Christianity needs to do what Jesus Christ said, Preach His Word, and that is getting very difficult to do when you have "atheistic" lies being spread, an obstacle to the faith just like sin is, should we give up trying to win debates and proving Christianity is Scientifically, Historically, Philosophically, Logically, Factually, and Personally True and let "atheism" reign? No, same question would be should we stop trying to fight evil(sin) and let sin reign? No.

We ought(me included) to give money to the poor every chance we get, invite them in our homes, try to end sin, but we fail to do so.

We ought to Preach against "atheism", Preach in every streetcorner, the best we can, but we fail to do so.

Please don't feel down on account of an internet forum, and yes we are called to have an answer for the hope in us. I believe the criticism you have received on here is because of you method of deliverance it can be a tad direct and perceived to be arrogant. I don't believe that you are arrogant at all personally and from what I have sorted through your in you posts, I like some of what you have said, as you know. Just try to bring down the intensity level an octave or 2

But if you don't address what real people, even those who are atheists, really say and believe, instead of what you say that they think then why should they pay attention to what you say? Telling someone that they do understand what you mean when they say that they don't isn't paying attention to the real human being.

And, I'm sorry, SBC94, but just making flat statements is not any sort of proof or "refutation". The ideas may connect in your mind but that doesn't make them convincing to others nor follow logically.

As to the problem of suffering, again, I'm sorry but you did not "refute" it. It still exists and your insistence that you've solved a universal problem doesn't make it so. Have you ever read The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis? or another of his works A Grief Observed?

Finally, if you are trying to prove that Christianity is true Historically, then use real History with real support. If scientifically, then use real science with true and reliable sources, if logically in debate the use the guidelines and rules of logic and debating.

Just saying "I'm right" doesn't make it true.

With respect,

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Saying it is so doesn't automagically make it so. Arguments need support, and your arguments have precious little of that. As Ebor said, you need to provide factual, logical, scientific proof to back yourself up. 'You didn't understand' doesn't cut it. They understand, all right, they just don't agree.

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'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

I don't get it, you guys got me feeling down and out like I should give up on Apologetics and just focus on my Spiritual life because I am not good at it. for example, what did I do wrong? I refuted the problem of suffering, not to get benefit from it, anyone can use this argument and take the credit, I wrote it because alot of people deal with the problem of suffering and it could hinder their faith, so I refuted it, making it a nonexistent ostabcle, I say by The Holy Spirit that I did it is because, by The Holy Spirit I did it, He gives us truth and gave me The Truth to logically refute the problem of suffering.

Winning debates, this should be a strive for, if you don't strive to do it you won't win, if you don't Pray you'll never grow(Spiritually), Christianity needs to do what Jesus Christ said, Preach His Word, and that is getting very difficult to do when you have "atheistic" lies being spread, an obstacle to the faith just like sin is, should we give up trying to win debates and proving Christianity is Scientifically, Historically, Philosophically, Logically, Factually, and Personally True and let "atheism" reign? No, same question would be should we stop trying to fight evil(sin) and let sin reign? No.

We ought(me included) to give money to the poor every chance we get, invite them in our homes, try to end sin, but we fail to do so.

We ought to Preach against "atheism", Preach in every streetcorner, the best we can, but we fail to do so.

St. Paul started preaching to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah immediately after his conversion, yet it took some time away, a few years in the desert, in fact, for him to learn how to preach effectively. Judging from your recent futility at what you call "preaching", I think you're likely going to need the same time away for training that St. Paul needed. It could be a few years, so be patient.

Hmm. I remember that Christ said to go forth and baptize all nations, but not that he said to go forth and argue with all nations. I would hope that in the light of the truth that is Christ, we would not really be in the arguing business. Truth is its own argument-ender; against Christ the Lord no one will stand. I don't know of anyone who was ever successfully argued into the faith (at least not on a long-term basis), but there are plenty who were argued out of it. Food for thought, maybe.

I don't get it, you guys got me feeling down and out like I should give up on Apologetics and just focus on my Spiritual life because I am not good at it. for example, what did I do wrong? I refuted the problem of suffering, not to get benefit from it, anyone can use this argument and take the credit, I wrote it because alot of people deal with the problem of suffering and it could hinder their faith, so I refuted it, making it a nonexistent ostabcle, I say by The Holy Spirit that I did it is because, by The Holy Spirit I did it, He gives us truth and gave me The Truth to logically refute the problem of suffering.

You seem to assume that all are called to be apologists, to defend Christianity logically instead of or in addition to witnessing with and through love. That is not a good assumption. You are eighteen years old. When I was eighteen, I wanted to defend Christianity from noxious, silly, atheistic rhetoric as well. Because it is true, and good, and Christ is truth, and goodness. But that was not my only motivation, maybe not even my primary motivation. I persisted in my apologetics, I became shrill and uncompromising and failed to hear what my opponents were saying, or discern why they were really saying it, because I was prideful, inexperienced, insecure. I was growing into my faith and wanted a solid, logical foundation on which to rest. That would not have been important to me if these atheist arguments had left me unshaken and confident. And it does excite ones pride to make such 'theological breakthroughs.' Before you protest that you are pure and unsullied by these concerns, take a moment to reflect on how you feel when you perceive yourself to have triumphed over your opponents - especially when they go away unchanged.

I don't mean to talk down to you. I am your elder but I am not your superior. But I have done what you are doing and I really don't believe it is spiritually healthy for young persons and new Christians, who have not tempered their zeal with experience and wisdom.

A spiritually mature person does not need a logical answer to every logical difficulty. If they find one, well and good. But it is better to pray than to allow your mind to dwell on these things. An atheist can produce a new/old/tweaked criticism of Christianity every hour and nothing would please the evil one more than for you to spend every hour of your day dealing with their vitriol. Even if your intentions are pure as driven snow, how can making debates the focus of your Christian life possibly be healthy? You cannot immerse yourself in filth and expect to go away smelling like roses.

Do you attend a church? Do you have a spiritual guide - a priest, a pastor, an elder? I think you need to spend more time trying to live a Christian life. These intellectual concerns can be become distractions or worse, if we allow them to define our Christianity. If we spend most of our time thinking of our religion as an abstract, logical thing, there is a danger that it will become nothing more than that. Perhaps if, in a few years, you still feel you are called by God to be a professional evangelist or an apologist or the like, you can think of picking it up again.

I was like you once. I also saw in Christianity an endeavor to refute atheism (and anything associated with it) and other religions. I find it intellectually stimulating, but spiritually debilitating, as I concentrated less and less on my spiritual life and neglecting also the alms and services for others, which matter most.

What was the highest measure by which Christ would judge you? He says so here:

Quote from: Matthew 25

34 Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

...

44 Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.

EVEN WORSE, Christ even said not all those who prophesied in His name (for defending the faith and refutations can be considered a form of prophecy) will enter the Kingdom of heaven:

Quote from: Matthew 7

21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Do really seek to be a "theologian" in the strictest sense, to seek to "know God" as theology really is? Then know God through praying to Him, by increasing in your spirituality, and by helping those who have no help, where God is said to be present, among the poor of the people, the widows, the orphans, the travelers, the strangers, the sick, the desperate, the depressed, the distressed. These are the people that need God the most. Atheists who engage in intellectual discussions are at an arrogant stage of their lives, who desire no help from anyone, but just a good coffee conversation. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's everything wrong with concentrating on that at the expense of serving your spiritual needs and the needs of others around you. Indeed, it could be even worse. Atheists achieve great joy seeing the arrogance present in them be magnified in you, and seeing that you preach what you don't even practice in the manner to which you debate them. Your arguments become a victory to them, and a victory for the demons.

At this stage, just concentrate on your own personal spiritual life and almsgiving. Only then do you know the real value of truly proving God's existence and presence to others, not by your arguments, your prophecies, your miracles, or your exorcisms, but by your love to God with all your heart, soul, mind, and spirit, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

And sacrifice the feeling that you need to defend God or the faith. God and the Church needs no defense from us worthless people. We do our defense better by doing the will of God as defined above, not by arguing about God. Achieve these first, and when the opportunity comes, when someone wishes to know and question the faith and hope that is in you, then you should be ready to defend it, but do not be the one who initiates the discussion. It must come from others after they see the beauty and change that is in your heart and in the way you deal with others.

And that is when you are ready to also learn about Orthodoxy.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 11:01:07 AM by minasoliman »

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

I was like you once. I also saw in Christianity an endeavor to refute atheism (and anything associated with it) and other religions. I find it intellectually stimulating, but spiritually debilitating, as I concentrated less and less on my spiritual life and neglecting also the alms and services for others, which matter most.

So because you did that means I did it? when did I say that I do? How do you know my Spiritual life, this guy spiked up my OCD with his slander.

According to this guy, guys who defend Jesus Christ on an intellectual level aren't Spiritual, it isn't one or the other, it's both, Jesus Christ requires you to

What was the highest measure by which Christ would judge you? He says so here:

Matthew 25:34 Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

...

44 Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.

I don't get this, how do you know I don't love Jesus Christ? because someone defends Him intellectually that means they don't love Him?

EVEN WORSE, Christ even said not all those who prophesied in His name (for defending the faith and refutations can be considered a form of prophecy) will enter the Kingdom of heaven:

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

True, but that doesn't apply to me as I try my best to do The Will of The Father in Heaven before my Christian Defending.

and by helping those who have no help, where God is said to be present, among the poor of the people, the widows, the orphans, the travelers, the strangers, the sick, the desperate, the depressed, the distressed. These are the people that need God the most.

Atheists who engage in intellectual discussions are at an arrogant stage of their lives, who desire no help from anyone, but just a good coffee conversation. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's everything wrong with concentrating on that at the expense of serving your spiritual needs and the needs of others around you. Indeed, it could be even worse. Atheists achieve great joy seeing the arrogance present in them be magnified in you,

How am I arrogant? because I said an "atheist" cannot refute something like The Resurrection or Jesus Christ(God's) existence?

That isn't arrogance, that is a fact, no one can refute anything about God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

At this stage, just concentrate on your own personal spiritual life and almsgiving. Only then do you know the real value of truly proving God's existence and presence to others, not by your arguments, your prophecies, your miracles, or your exorcisms, but by your love to God with all your heart, soul, mind, and spirit, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

I suggest you practice love, as you offended and made assumptions about me and spiked up my OCD by implying that I am not truly Saved.

God and the Church needs no defense from us worthless people. We do our defense better by doing the will of God as defined above, not by arguing about God. Achieve these first, and when the opportunity comes, when someone wishes to know and question the faith and hope that is in you, then you should be ready to defend it, but do not be the one who initiates the discussion. It must come from others after they see the beauty and change that is in your heart and in the way you deal with others.

And that is when you are ready to also learn about Orthodoxy.

I have had a beauty and change in my heart, I'm just defending Jesus Christ, there isn't a one or the other, you can do both and do them well.

I have increased your warning status to 60 days. I had warned you on January 6th for your use of the word "slanderer" in another thread. Yet you persist in using ad hominems and not respecting others. One more such instance and you will be moderated. Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

I don't get it, you guys got me feeling down and out like I should give up on Apologetics and just focus on my Spiritual life because I am not good at it. for example, what did I do wrong? I refuted the problem of suffering, not to get benefit from it, anyone can use this argument and take the credit, I wrote it because alot of people deal with the problem of suffering and it could hinder their faith, so I refuted it, making it a nonexistent ostabcle, I say by The Holy Spirit that I did it is because, by The Holy Spirit I did it, He gives us truth and gave me The Truth to logically refute the problem of suffering.

You seem to assume that all are called to be apologists, to defend Christianity logically instead of or in addition to witnessing with and through love. That is not a good assumption. You are eighteen years old. When I was eighteen, I wanted to defend Christianity from noxious, silly, atheistic rhetoric as well. Because it is true, and good, and Christ is truth, and goodness. But that was not my only motivation, maybe not even my primary motivation. I persisted in my apologetics, I became shrill and uncompromising and failed to hear what my opponents were saying, or discern why they were really saying it, because I was prideful, inexperienced, insecure. I was growing into my faith and wanted a solid, logical foundation on which to rest. That would not have been important to me if these atheist arguments had left me unshaken and confident. And it does excite ones pride to make such 'theological breakthroughs.' Before you protest that you are pure and unsullied by these concerns, take a moment to reflect on how you feel when you perceive yourself to have triumphed over your opponents - especially when they go away unchanged.

I don't mean to talk down to you. I am your elder but I am not your superior. But I have done what you are doing and I really don't believe it is spiritually healthy for young persons and new Christians, who have not tempered their zeal with experience and wisdom.

A spiritually mature person does not need a logical answer to every logical difficulty. If they find one, well and good. But it is better to pray than to allow your mind to dwell on these things. An atheist can produce a new/old/tweaked criticism of Christianity every hour and nothing would please the evil one more than for you to spend every hour of your day dealing with their vitriol. Even if your intentions are pure as driven snow, how can making debates the focus of your Christian life possibly be healthy? You cannot immerse yourself in filth and expect to go away smelling like roses.

Do you attend a church? Do you have a spiritual guide - a priest, a pastor, an elder? I think you need to spend more time trying to live a Christian life. These intellectual concerns can be become distractions or worse, if we allow them to define our Christianity. If we spend most of our time thinking of our religion as an abstract, logical thing, there is a danger that it will become nothing more than that. Perhaps if, in a few years, you still feel you are called by God to be a professional evangelist or an apologist or the like, you can think of picking it up again.

1 Timothy 4New International Version (NIV)4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

11 Command and teach these things. 12 Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

15 Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Hmm. I remember that Christ said to go forth and baptize all nations, but not that he said to go forth and argue with all nations. I would hope that in the light of the truth that is Christ, we would not really be in the arguing business. Truth is its own argument-ender; against Christ the Lord no one will stand. I don't know of anyone who was ever successfully argued into the faith (at least not on a long-term basis), but there are plenty who were argued out of it. Food for thought, maybe.

So according to you, when one Preaches, In Order that one could get Baptized by The Holy Spirit, and they get an objection, they shouldn't respond(aka argue), which means people won't be Baptized as they should.

Arguing and teaching is apart of Preaching The Kingdom, are you going to let Jesus Christ and The Kingdom get slandered etc? no.

I was like you once. I also saw in Christianity an endeavor to refute atheism (and anything associated with it) and other religions. I find it intellectually stimulating, but spiritually debilitating, as I concentrated less and less on my spiritual life and neglecting also the alms and services for others, which matter most.

So because you did that means I did it? when did I say that I do? How do you know my Spiritual life, this guy spiked up my OCD with his slander.

According to this guy, guys who defend Jesus Christ on an intellectual level aren't Spiritual, it isn't one or the other, it's both, Jesus Christ requires you to

What was the highest measure by which Christ would judge you? He says so here:

Matthew 25:34 Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

...

44 Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.

I don't get this, how do you know I don't love Jesus Christ? because someone defends Him intellectually that means they don't love Him?

EVEN WORSE, Christ even said not all those who prophesied in His name (for defending the faith and refutations can be considered a form of prophecy) will enter the Kingdom of heaven:

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

True, but that doesn't apply to me as I try my best to do The Will of The Father in Heaven before my Christian Defending.

and by helping those who have no help, where God is said to be present, among the poor of the people, the widows, the orphans, the travelers, the strangers, the sick, the desperate, the depressed, the distressed. These are the people that need God the most.

Atheists who engage in intellectual discussions are at an arrogant stage of their lives, who desire no help from anyone, but just a good coffee conversation. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's everything wrong with concentrating on that at the expense of serving your spiritual needs and the needs of others around you. Indeed, it could be even worse. Atheists achieve great joy seeing the arrogance present in them be magnified in you,

How am I arrogant? because I said an "atheist" cannot refute something like The Resurrection or Jesus Christ(God's) existence?

That isn't arrogance, that is a fact, no one can refute anything about God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

At this stage, just concentrate on your own personal spiritual life and almsgiving. Only then do you know the real value of truly proving God's existence and presence to others, not by your arguments, your prophecies, your miracles, or your exorcisms, but by your love to God with all your heart, soul, mind, and spirit, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

I suggest you practice love, as you offended and made assumptions about me and spiked up my OCD by implying that I am not truly Saved.

God and the Church needs no defense from us worthless people. We do our defense better by doing the will of God as defined above, not by arguing about God. Achieve these first, and when the opportunity comes, when someone wishes to know and question the faith and hope that is in you, then you should be ready to defend it, but do not be the one who initiates the discussion. It must come from others after they see the beauty and change that is in your heart and in the way you deal with others.

And that is when you are ready to also learn about Orthodoxy.

I have had a beauty and change in my heart, I'm just defending Jesus Christ, there isn't a one or the other, you can do both and do them well.

My friend, some young people have matured to an adult level beyond my own. But others, like drunk people, are too hard to convince until they sober up. Time will tell you how of you're not able to see the arrogance in your posts.

As for your OCD, please continue to see a health care professional so that it would be avoided to "spike" at another time.

As for me, yes, I'm a hypocrite, since I daily fail to fulfill my duties to love God as I should.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 12:15:55 PM by minasoliman »

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Hmm. I remember that Christ said to go forth and baptize all nations, but not that he said to go forth and argue with all nations. I would hope that in the light of the truth that is Christ, we would not really be in the arguing business. Truth is its own argument-ender; against Christ the Lord no one will stand. I don't know of anyone who was ever successfully argued into the faith (at least not on a long-term basis), but there are plenty who were argued out of it. Food for thought, maybe.

So according to you, when one Preaches, In Order that one could get Baptized by The Holy Spirit, and they get an objection, they shouldn't respond(aka argue), which means people won't be Baptized as they should.

Arguing and teaching is apart of Preaching The Kingdom, are you going to let Jesus Christ and The Kingdom get slandered etc? no.

My friend, it is not so much what you are saying but how you're saying it.

Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

I was like you once. I also saw in Christianity an endeavor to refute atheism (and anything associated with it) and other religions. I find it intellectually stimulating, but spiritually debilitating, as I concentrated less and less on my spiritual life and neglecting also the alms and services for others, which matter most.

So because you did that means I did it? when did I say that I do? How do you know my Spiritual life, this guy spiked up my OCD with his slander.

According to this guy, guys who defend Jesus Christ on an intellectual level aren't Spiritual, it isn't one or the other, it's both, Jesus Christ requires you to

What was the highest measure by which Christ would judge you? He says so here:

Matthew 25:34 Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

...

44 Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.

I don't get this, how do you know I don't love Jesus Christ? because someone defends Him intellectually that means they don't love Him?

EVEN WORSE, Christ even said not all those who prophesied in His name (for defending the faith and refutations can be considered a form of prophecy) will enter the Kingdom of heaven:

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

True, but that doesn't apply to me as I try my best to do The Will of The Father in Heaven before my Christian Defending.

and by helping those who have no help, where God is said to be present, among the poor of the people, the widows, the orphans, the travelers, the strangers, the sick, the desperate, the depressed, the distressed. These are the people that need God the most.

Atheists who engage in intellectual discussions are at an arrogant stage of their lives, who desire no help from anyone, but just a good coffee conversation. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's everything wrong with concentrating on that at the expense of serving your spiritual needs and the needs of others around you. Indeed, it could be even worse. Atheists achieve great joy seeing the arrogance present in them be magnified in you,

How am I arrogant? because I said an "atheist" cannot refute something like The Resurrection or Jesus Christ(God's) existence?

That isn't arrogance, that is a fact, no one can refute anything about God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

At this stage, just concentrate on your own personal spiritual life and almsgiving. Only then do you know the real value of truly proving God's existence and presence to others, not by your arguments, your prophecies, your miracles, or your exorcisms, but by your love to God with all your heart, soul, mind, and spirit, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

I suggest you practice love, as you offended and made assumptions about me and spiked up my OCD by implying that I am not truly Saved.

God and the Church needs no defense from us worthless people. We do our defense better by doing the will of God as defined above, not by arguing about God. Achieve these first, and when the opportunity comes, when someone wishes to know and question the faith and hope that is in you, then you should be ready to defend it, but do not be the one who initiates the discussion. It must come from others after they see the beauty and change that is in your heart and in the way you deal with others.

And that is when you are ready to also learn about Orthodoxy.

I have had a beauty and change in my heart, I'm just defending Jesus Christ, there isn't a one or the other, you can do both and do them well.

My friend, some young people have matured to an adult level beyond my own. But others, like drunk people, are too hard to convince until they sober up. Time will tell you how of you're not able to see the arrogance in your posts.

As for your OCD, please continue to see a health care professional so that it would be avoided to "spike" at another time.

As for me, yes, I'm a hypocrite, since I daily fail to fulfill my duties to love God as I should.

I am a hypocrite at times too, and that spikes up my OCD. but lets get to what you said,

why are my posts arrogant? Saying that you will not refute anything about God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) isn't arrogance, it's just a fact, God exists and anything against Him is wrong.

1 Timothy 4New International Version (NIV)4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

11 Command and teach these things.12 Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

15 Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Are you, like St. Timothy, a called and ordained clergyman? I thought you were an internet apologist.

Since you like prooftexts, here is another for you.

Quote from: 2 Timothy 2:22-23

So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.

How am I arrogant? because I said an "atheist" cannot refute something like The Resurrection or Jesus Christ(God's) existence?

That isn't arrogance, that is a fact, no one can refute anything about God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

<snip>

why are my posts arrogant? Saying that you will not refute anything about God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) isn't arrogance, it's just a fact, God exists and anything against Him is wrong.

There have been atheists as long as there has been religion. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on having to deal with them.

What Christianity does have is several centuries' worth of people of great learning (the kind that I'm afraid is impossible to get today) making spreading the Truth their life's work.

And there are still atheists.

You seem to think that with a few ideas born out of OCD spikes and thrown onto an internet page in painfully poor English, you can do better than they did. That is colossal arrogance.

Also, you barged into a community without bothering to learn anything about it, without as much as saying hi, and started haranguing people, calling them hypocrites and slanderers if they disagreed with you or attempted to recall you to order. That is rude.

This is the internet. Words are all we have, and nuances can be hard to convey. But there are people behind each screen, and one needs to treat them as such.

You're 18 and there's no known cure, but there's only so much that can be chalked up to that.

Logged

'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

How am I arrogant? because I said an "atheist" cannot refute something like The Resurrection or Jesus Christ(God's) existence?

That isn't arrogance, that is a fact, no one can refute anything about God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

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why are my posts arrogant? Saying that you will not refute anything about God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) isn't arrogance, it's just a fact, God exists and anything against Him is wrong.

There have been atheists as long as there has been religion.

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You're 18 and there's no known cure, but there's only so much that can be chalked up to that.

Link about that whole atheist bit?*

And can people let up on the age nonsense around here, unless it has any real bearing on the subject matter? [Redacted analogies about your person to make my point, which probably would have put me under moderation.]

I was like you once. I also saw in Christianity an endeavor to refute atheism (and anything associated with it) and other religions. I find it intellectually stimulating, but spiritually debilitating, as I concentrated less and less on my spiritual life and neglecting also the alms and services for others, which matter most.

So because you did that means I did it? when did I say that I do? How do you know my Spiritual life, this guy spiked up my OCD with his slander.

Your OCD is your problem. You have to deal with it. No one can spike your OCD unless you allow them to do so. AISI, then, you have two valid options: 1) Seek treatment from a mental health professional for your OCD, and 2) take full responsibility for how you respond to others. Don't blame others for doing to you what you do to yourself.

Like a poor man given the biggest mansion, you’d think the poor guy would mess that up and go back to the streets again? No, and now Heaven is inexplicable, so no one will sin. For this reason(4) alone suffering is a necessity.

This analogy is so full of fail. How do you explain soldiers who have served multiple tours overseas and volunteer to go back over even after suffering tremendous horrors? What about people who took their last dollar to play the lottery, won millions and ended up even worse than before just a short time later? Please explain to me how it is that suffering is a necessity to end suffering when the world is full of counter examples.

Atheists who engage in intellectual discussions are at an arrogant stage of their lives, who desire no help from anyone, but just a good coffee conversation. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's everything wrong with concentrating on that at the expense of serving your spiritual needs and the needs of others around you. Indeed, it could be even worse. Atheists achieve great joy seeing the arrogance present in them be magnified in you,

How am I arrogant? because I said an "atheist" cannot refute something like The Resurrection or Jesus Christ(God's) existence?

That isn't arrogance, that is a fact, no one can refute anything about God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

They can "refute" it in the same way that you are supposedly "proving" it. By making a flat statement that the Resurrection didn't happen or that Jesus did not exist. You're not giving any kind of proof whatsoever. You are just making a statement of something that you believe.

Can you state any of the ideas that real atheists have in the matter of religion? Have you really read any of that particular school of thought? You're not countering any arguments why just saying "X is true. I win." And calling people names will not make them more willing to accept your opinions either.

You have not provided evidence, but instead made statements without any support or documentation. You have not engaged in argument because you have not addressed other people's ideas. You have not shown that something is false, but just said that it is again without any backup to your own words.

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Like a poor man given the biggest mansion, you’d think the poor guy would mess that up and go back to the streets again? No, and now Heaven is inexplicable, so no one will sin. For this reason(4) alone suffering is a necessity.

This analogy is so full of fail. How do you explain soldiers who have served multiple tours overseas and volunteer to go back over even after suffering tremendous horrors? What about people who took their last dollar to play the lottery, won millions and ended up even worse than before just a short time later? Please explain to me how it is that suffering is a necessity to end suffering when the world is full of counter examples.

That's talking about earthly life, the only thing we know, the soldier lets say if put in Heaven, would not go back to the war as Heaven is Inexplicable, Hard to explain

2 Corinthians 4:17

For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.

Heaven, where there will be no more sickness, no more diseases, etc added with the experience of suffering and the world, there is not only no reason to sin, but to not even bring the memory of this world up.

The Angels, satan Adam and Eve were born into greatness, they knew no evil or the consequences(well they knew the consequences but didn't understand them), they were given the silver spoon and could mess up, we, we were born into suffering, we all need God(The Father, The Son(Jesus Christ), and The Holy Spirit) in our lives, we all need His Kingdom. you mean to tell me that when you go from garbage to everything being a ok that someone is going to mess it up?

Unless they are depressed or hunger for war(like your soldier analogy), but depression will be a mere memory, it'll be nonexistent, bravery not necessary, cowardice nonexistent, only thing in existence would be happiness and memory of suffering, and with that one will not sin again because they know what will happen.

Like a poor man given the biggest mansion, you’d think the poor guy would mess that up and go back to the streets again? No, and now Heaven is inexplicable, so no one will sin. For this reason(4) alone suffering is a necessity.

This analogy is so full of fail. How do you explain soldiers who have served multiple tours overseas and volunteer to go back over even after suffering tremendous horrors? What about people who took their last dollar to play the lottery, won millions and ended up even worse than before just a short time later? Please explain to me how it is that suffering is a necessity to end suffering when the world is full of counter examples.

That's talking about earthly life,

So is your analogy, hence the reason it fails.

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you mean to tell me that when you go from garbage to everything being a ok that someone is going to mess it up?

I'm telling you that it is human nature to screw things up, and according to what you have written (or at least the way you have worded it) we would screw up if we were taken out of our suffering and put into paradise.

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Unless they are depressed or hunger for war(like your soldier analogy), but depression will be a mere memory, it'll be nonexistent, bravery not necessary, cowardice nonexistent, only thing in existence would be happiness and memory of suffering, and with that one will not sin again because they know what will happen.

First, no where in my analogy did I even hint that the soldier hungered for war. What I mentioned happens a lot. Soldiers return home from immense suffering and then volunteer to go back over - not because they love war (they hate it), but because it is what is familiar to them and they can't deal with the change (one reason that suicide rates are up). Likewise so homeless people would choose to leave their mansion and go back to living on the streets because it is what they know. Second, we as Christians know that there will be consequences for sinning, yet we still sin. These are how you analogy fails.

I'm not saying that once we all get to Heaven that we are going to continually screw things up and try to get back to Earth and sinning, quite the contrary, but I am saying that your analogy fails because it talks about earthly life with no spiritual side to it at all. Now if you want to convince me that the homeless man will stay in the mansion, or that the soldier will stay home you need to throw in some spiritual stuff (which you tried to do) and then explain the how and why the spiritual stuff would work.

You were instructed to not advertise your blog on this forum. I'll give you the chance to explain to either Carl Kraeff or me via private message how you think this post contributes to the discussion outside of merely repeating what you've already posted on this thread. Until then, however, you are on post moderation for the next 30 days, since it's readily apparent that you cannot be trusted to follow our forum's rules. While on moderated status, you will still be able to post to this forum, but every one of your posts will need to be screened by a moderator before it will appear on this forum.

If you think this action wrong, please appeal it via private message either to myself or to Carl Kraeff, this section's moderator.