I think that's a pretty fair list to be honest. Enslaved I personally wouldn't have put there (I'd have gone for Celtic Frost instead), but there's nothing terrible about his list or his reasons for choosing them. I know some people here cannot stand Dunn or his movies/TV shows, so I'm expecting a fairly interesting conversation to take place about this.

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Earthcubed wrote:

I'm just perpetually annoyed by Sean William Scott and he's never been in a movie where I wasn't rooting for his head to sever by strange means.

Sam sure does like insisting on 'extreme metal' as being a subgenre in its own right, rather than a catch all term for several gigantic subgenres (death, black, grind, doom, maybe some industrial and folk). It all sounds like an improvement on those execrable grunge and power metal episodes. Can't say that I'd put Enslaved anywhere near that list while leaving Celtic Frost and Venom off with a straight face. Where would you put Napalm Death? Or Slayer? Mayhem? Morbid Angel?

I'll watch it with interest nonetheless.

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John_Sunlight wrote:

Gif logos are a rare and special thing. They should be reserved only for truly exceptional and rare and special and important bands, bands like Blind Guardian and... Blind Guardian. This should be in the rules.

I think the term "extreme metal" can be both a catch all term for several different subgenres and a subgenre all on its own. The way I classify it, a band that is simply "extreme metal" doesn't fall too far into any one particular style that you'd associate with extreme metal (death, black, the more intense side of thrash, etc.). Basically they blend enough styles together to where they aren't definitively a death metal band or a thrash metal band or what have you.

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Earthcubed wrote:

I'm just perpetually annoyed by Sean William Scott and he's never been in a movie where I wasn't rooting for his head to sever by strange means.

Recent albums Ruun and Axioma Ethica Odini demonstrate that extreme metal can be a vehicle for both savage aggression and oral history, suggesting a brave future for metal’s most transgressive sub-genre.

Yeah, those albums are so extreme. Is there one second of savage aggression on Axioma Ethica Odini?

Enslaved, despite being a pretty great band, are definitely not one of the most important extreme metal bands. I would suggest either Darkthrone, Burzum or maybe Mayhem instead. Potentially remove Carcass too, and would suggest that Venom, Slayer or Celtic Frost could have earned a spot.

Bathory’s self-titled debut record marked the true birth of the black metal sub-genre, transforming black metal from the tongue-in-cheek occult posturing of Venom into a sober, artistic pursuit.

What? The record that's pretty much a straight-up Venom tribute? Yeah, it really marks the point when black metal detached itself from Venom, right? What with all the songs that sound like Venom... maybe Dunn's copy of Bathory's debut is actually Under the Sign of the Black Mark?

_________________'Sometimes you have to be a bigot in order to beat bigger bigots' - G. Marenghi.

Dunn remains clueless about extreme metal. Give up already. Every docu by him has been misleading and filled with terrible mistakes and misconceptions that its just ridiculous to expect something 'fair' from him.

I was not so much into his Metal Evolution -documents. He had time for grunge and hair metal, but not black metal?!? Enslaved is a good band and all, but I would put Venom or Celtic Frost there instead.

Well in his defense he didn't really have a choice in that, VH1 kinda forced him to do the popular genres/relevant to VH1 viewers episodes. Also in his defense of this list, he was after "Most influential", not best/most mandatory listens or whatever, and really outside of Carcass and Enslaved he pretty much picked the big name first up acts, obviously in that context CF could have made sense, but this doesn't necessarily mean he is completely retarded and entry level with his taste/knowledge.

Out of his defense he's a moron who has too much influence and needless attention and he should shut up forever.

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Naamath wrote:

No comments, no words need it, no BM, no compromise, only grains in her face.

Bathory’s self-titled debut record marked the true birth of the black metal sub-genre, transforming black metal from the tongue-in-cheek occult posturing of Venom into a sober, artistic pursuit.

What? The record that's pretty much a straight-up Venom tribute? Yeah, it really marks the point when black metal detached itself from Venom, right? What with all the songs that sound like Venom... maybe Dunn's copy of Bathory's debut is actually Under the Sign of the Black Mark?

I chuckled at that quote. The Bathory debut is anything but a "Sober, artistic pursuit" and all the better for it. It's more "Swedish Satanics try to one up Venom at their own game." I believe that Sodom's "In the Sign of Evil" is the true birth of Sophisticated Black Metal Art. :/

Well in his defense he didn't really have a choice in that, VH1 kinda forced him to do the popular genres/relevant to VH1 viewers episodes. Also in his defense of this list, he was after "Most influential", not best/most mandatory listens or whatever, and really outside of Carcass and Enslaved he pretty much picked the big name first up acts, obviously in that context CF could have made sense, but this doesn't necessarily mean he is completely retarded and entry level with his taste/knowledge.

I think Carcass is actually a great choice because it has both the grind and melodeath aspects of extreme metal to it.

Enslaved is the only semi-questionable choice, and probably has more to do with his love of the band. People are going to complain that their band (whether it be Celtic Frost, Hellhammer, Mayhem, or whoever else) isn't on it, but it's hard to define all of death, black, and grindcore in just 5 bands.

Also, the reason he's doing extreme metal together is because it's unbelievably expensive to produce these episodes, and there's no way he could afford to do more than 1. People are going to complain because he won't spend enough time on each subject, but if it's only 40ish minutes, there's no way to adequately cover all of extreme metal. It's going to be a great episode, like most other things he does. Even if he spent 2 hours on each genre, it would be impossible to cover everything in them.

I chuckled at that quote. The Bathory debut is anything but a "Sober, artistic pursuit" and all the better for it. It's more "Swedish Satanics try to one up Venom at their own game." I believe that Sodom's "In the Sign of Evil" is the true birth of Sophisticated Black Metal Art. :/

See, it's shit like this which is why Dunn is worth keeping around. He's a "metal pundit" of sorts and he literally knows fuck all about the genre. He could fall into a bag of nipples and he'd still come out sucking his thumb. Give him more money, let idiocy reign!

_________________'Sometimes you have to be a bigot in order to beat bigger bigots' - G. Marenghi.

Venom's influence is overrated. They were influential, but nowhere near Celtic Frost, Bathory, Slayer, Napalm Death, Morbid Angel, Darkthrone or even Possessed when it comes to concrete musical influence.

Yes I know they influenced most of these bands. Shut up. Their contribution was goofy satanism and copying Motörhead.

Venom's influence is overrated. They were influential, but nowhere near Celtic Frost, Bathory, Slayer, Napalm Death, Morbid Angel, Darkthrone or even Possessed when it comes to concrete musical influence.

Yes I know they influenced most of these bands. Shut up. Their contribution was goofy satanism and copying Motörhead.

No. I'm not going to guess how much metal you've listened to, how old you are, or anything stupid like that. I'm just going to say that if anything, Venom's influence is underrated, and you even admit that they influenced a boatload of important bands you listed. Venom may love Motorhead but they certainly never copied them as blatantly as Bathory did, and the Venom influence in bands as diverse as Voivod, Slayer, Sabbat (JP), Metallica, Deceased, Celtic Frost and even reaching out of metal and into punk, is just incalculable. It's all right that you think they're goofy and don't enjoy them, but acknowledge that they're hugely, fundamentally important.

_________________Hush! and harkTo the sorrowful cryOf the wind in the dark.Hush and hark, without murmur or sigh,To shoon that tread the lost aeons:To the sound that bids you to die.

Enslaved began their career amidst the pack of Norwegian black metal bands that exploded in the early 90s. But by decade’s end they had matured into an eccentric blend of black-meets-prog-meets-folk metal

To the newcomers/entry level metalheads that think Venom is overrated: Venom is the sole father of extreme metal. That includes speed, thrash, death and black metal in its ENTIRETY. Not even Metallica would have made Kill' em All without Venom around.

Possessed/Death are good picks since they developed death metal. Slayer could have also being included here in a similar sense instead Carcass. There's also Morbid Angel that, no matter what they're doing now, they are one of the most influential metal acts, not only for death metal but also to black metal.

BUT...If there's a man that made a complete shift/showed a totally new path for generations to follow and would second Venom in terms of importance, is Tom G. Warrior. HH/CF comes just second in terms of influence to extreme metal as a whole. Every black metal band in existence have taken a bit of Warrior in every part of the world; Brazil, Norway, Sweden, Greece, Canada, US, you name it. Not only black metal, but also death and more extreme doom metal acts has been influenced by CF/HH in invaluable ways.

Enslaved is the oddest one. Norwegian black metal has way better and more important bands to name; Darkthrone, Emperor and Burzum have been way more influential than Enslaved in every sense; even Ulver deserves more the mention for bringing the black/folk genre and the whole generation of neofolk bands.

Oh, he should make his lists, by all means, but giving his words undue import would be a mistake...

Kveldulv, good post about Venom and Tom G.'s bands; i agree totally, of course.

Ok, back to Sam for a moment, I've no doubt that he's been around the block and knows what he's on about as far as bands and scenes go. But he wouldn't be the first journalist to write about metal and not really see the big picture, or choose not to. I'm sure everyone's heard of that Riff Kills guide to heavy metal written by Martin Popoff and remembers just how bad much of the stuff on "extreme metal" bands was. it clearly wasnt' his specialty; I recall he wrote enthusiastically about a lot of glam bands. These guys limit themselves to certain genre specialties and then are tasked with writing books or doing shows on the entire gamut of stuff, from Motley Crue to havohej, and naturally some things are just going to come up short.

_________________Hush! and harkTo the sorrowful cryOf the wind in the dark.Hush and hark, without murmur or sigh,To shoon that tread the lost aeons:To the sound that bids you to die.

Last edited by Abominatrix on Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I can agree with it all except the Enslaved bit, which kinda boggles me a little. I mean yeah, they do have influence and are progressive, but there's definitely a good amount more bands that should be filling that spot.

Abominatrix wrote:

inhumanist wrote:

Venom's influence is overrated. They were influential, but nowhere near Celtic Frost, Bathory, Slayer, Napalm Death, Morbid Angel, Darkthrone or even Possessed when it comes to concrete musical influence.

Yes I know they influenced most of these bands. Shut up. Their contribution was goofy satanism and copying Motörhead.

No. I'm not going to guess how much metal you've listened to, how old you are, or anything stupid like that. I'm just going to say that if anything, Venom's influence is underrated, and you even admit that they influenced a boatload of important bands you listed. Venom may love Motorhead but they certainly never copied them as blatantly as Bathory did, and the Venom influence in bands as diverse as Voivod, Slayer, Sabbat (JP), Metallica, Deceased, Celtic Frost and even reaching out of metal and into punk, is just incalculable. It's all right that you think they're goofy and don't enjoy them, but acknowledge that they're hugely, fundamentally important.

WTF, Bathory don't sound like anything anywhere NEAR Motorhead in comparison to Venom. I agree with everything else, but that one was just a huge no. How do songs like In Conspiracy with Satan, Equmanthorn or Blood Fire Death sound more like Overkill, Stone Dead and Bomber than Venom's Live like an Angel, Sons of Satan or Raise the Dead?

Meh, does anyone really care about Sam Dunn anymore? Decent list, although completely obvious. For extreme metal being it's own genre, I disagree. It is an umbrella term, and when something fits only under extreme metal, it's not because it fits under a specific established sound, it's because nothing else works besides the vague general term.

Eh, listen to the non-album version of "Sacrifice" and check out the song "Burning' Leather"...maybe even the SA version of "Return of Darkness and Evil". Anyway, Motorhead is one band that Quorthon does actually admit to taking a whole load of his sound from, unlike Venom, which he claims to have never listened to until, oh, about exactly the time when Bathory stopped sounding like Venom, around the third album.

My point wasnt' that Venom werent' influenced by Motorhead, just that Bathory was always much more blatant about that sort of thing, whether we're talking Motorhead, Metallica, Manowar or whatever band. Anyway, I guess tha'ts losing sight of the main point anyway, which is that Venom is one of a small handful of bands that every later band should bow to at least on some level.

_________________Hush! and harkTo the sorrowful cryOf the wind in the dark.Hush and hark, without murmur or sigh,To shoon that tread the lost aeons:To the sound that bids you to die.

Yeah, maybe; I don't know anything about that. So he's a journalist. Good for him.

...and an anthropologist, a documentarian, and musician.

So? His metal knowledge is pretty low compared to many journalists and interviewing well known musicians doesn't mean shit. This can be judged with his metal chart from his first movie. There's so many newb mistake on this that it's laughable. Opeth as goth metal? Cradle of Filth as Norwegian black metal? Witchfinder General and Candlemass as stoner metal? Nah, fuck Sam Dunn, he's only a metal "expert" in the eyes of 14 years old who are getting into Children of Bodom.

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CHAIRTHROWER wrote:

Metantoine, what does "fam" stand for, "familiar"? Like a witch's familiar?!...Have you been playing d & D again?...