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Today’s guest is Margie. Margie and I have known each other for quite some time, and she has the most incredible stories, so I’m very excited to be able to talk to you today, Margie, and hear your stories. We’ve been actually praying about which of the incredible stories we talk about today!

But we’ll start where we always start, which is: how did you become a Christian?

Well, I was born into a Christian family, and so I was brought up going to Sunday School, going to church, believing there was a God and seeing Him in the things around me, and the people around me. But then, there comes times when it’s like you take another step, another commitment to go deeper, and there were several of those during my life. Different people who have encouraged me, who have challenged me just to take that next step, and to become more and more Christ-centred.

As a teenager I drifted away a bit, but then I came back – I was drawn back. Through Billy Graham on the television, I think. I think that’s what it was. [laughs] Then other steps, by other people – real people sharing their faith with me, and challenging me.

Was there a specific time when you really said ‘Right, line in the sand here – from here on in, I’m with God’?

Not that I can remember, but you see it’s always been there, because when I was – I guess I was only about four, five, six, something around there – I don’t remember this, but my father told me about it. You know when people say ‘What are you going to be when you grow up?’ and [you say] ‘I’m going to be a princess’ or ‘I’m going to be a fairy’ or ‘I’m going to be’ goodness knows what – not me. I said ‘I’m going to be a nurse and look after little black children.’

Wow.

I know I always wanted to be a nurse.

Had you been reading books about famous missionaries?

I don’t know – possibly some missionary people came to church and talked about mission, or something like that. For one of my birthdays I wanted a little doll, and my gran took me to the shop to buy the little doll. We went to Woolies, and there was a black doll there. And she was horrified because I wanted the black doll. ‘It’s your birthday, you can have the black doll if you want the black doll’ – so I had the black doll. So right from early on, there was something in my heart that God had put there, that made me both want to be a nurse and look after little black children.

That’s so lovely. So you just went straight into nursing when you finished school?

With difficulty. We left England – I was born in England – and we came out to Tasmania right at the time when I’d done my school exams back there, and I didn’t do very well. I wasn’t very good at school; I had a rough time at school. When I got here, when I applied to be a nurse, they said ‘We don’t consider this to be an education certificate.’ My mother was horrified.

So they just didn’t recognise your education at all?

Something like that. It was very strange. So I ended up getting in through the back door – I did the government exam, which proved that I did have a brain, and it did work. I knew of the headmaster of our local school, and also an anaesthetist – a doctor who we’d got to know – and they both put in a word for me. And I was simply told ‘Well, you can do it, but the first exam you fail, you’ll be out.’ And I said ‘That’s alright, I won’t fail an exam.’ And I never did. So I got through that; it was hard, but I always wanted to be a nurse.

Why did your family come over here?

Opportunities, I think. My father was in work that was dead-end, in a factory, just piling more responsibility onto him but no more recognition of that extra work. I think dad could see that there were more opportunities elsewhere. We never regretted it. It was hard, very hard at first, but we never regret coming here.

Good. So, did you work for a while as nurse here in Tasmania?

I started off working in a chemist shop and got the sack after a week. I was just sixteen at this stage. I got the sack because I wouldn’t oblige the fifty-something-year-old man with something more than just serving behind a counter. So I got the sack. So that was okay. Then I worked in a dress shop – this was while I was trying to get into nursing, because you can’t get in at sixteen – and eventually I got into nursing. I did my training here, at The Royal [Hobart Hospital], and then I did midwifery in Sydney, and I did child health in Hobart, and then things were open.

So you worked for a while in a normal setting – you didn’t go straight into missions at that point?

No, no no no, I worked in all sorts of things – casualties, and operating theatres, I was in charge of the burns unit, I worked in chest hospitals in England, and all sorts of things.

So how did your faith show in that sort of situation?

It’s hard to tell. I think there were some things like the not obliging the man at the chemist shop. I think those are the sorts of things that come through, but I think at that stage I was not an outgoing Christian. It was very much something in me, for me. And there’s a difference; it’s not until you get to the point where you realise that what you’ve got is precious and it can be everyone else’s that you think, ‘I should be sharing this. I shouldn’t just be holding onto it.’

So how did you get to that point?

Oh my goodness. I don’t know. I guess it’s just taking those steps further when you’re challenged, and realising that it’s not something you hide, it’s something that you share, and it’s something that you need to show every day. It’s not a Sunday thing, it’s not a, ‘Today I’m going to be a Christian,’ or ,‘in this circumstance I’m going to be a Christian, in this one we’ll just let that slide a little bit, it’s not bad.’ I guess it’s just building up – you get to a point that you want to live as a Christian, you want people to see that you’re a Christian, and you want to be bold enough to actually, at times, challenge what they’re saying or doing and why. I think it’s when you get to that point, that’s when you become an active Christian, that’s when you become a sharing, caring Christian. And people know, and they can see where it comes from. Otherwise they just think ‘Oh, she’s a bit of a goody-goody, she doesn’t do this or she doesn’t do that.’ If they don’t know where it comes from, then that’s how they see it. Whereas if they see that it comes from your belief, and from the way you want to live, that’s when it can be useful to them.

So I don’t know at what point I got to that point. I know that in the 1970s I went to Papua New Guinea – I was on a mission field there.

Which missionary organisation was that with?

Well, it was really interesting because I actually went with the Catholic church. I’m Anglican, but I went with the Catholic church – or, to a Catholic base – because they were the ones that were in that area. Papua New Guinea’s divided up – different denominations have different…

Territories?

Different areas, yes. So you get one whole area which is Catholic, you get one whole area which is Anglican, you get another whole area which is Presbyterian, something like that. I ended up there because I went up there with a doctor, and was offered jobs all the way through, and this was the one that seemed the right one to go to. It was furthest west, furthest north, and about the most primitive I think, of all the ones. So it seemed right.

I was going to ask if you did midwifery there – I’m guessing you did everything there.

Yes, except midwifery – they had their own local midwives, and only came to me when they had troubles, and luckily I didn’t have any too horrific things. But yes, challenging.

So that was your first missions experience, and you’ve been in other missionary organisations as well, so what mission things have you done?

I did go to Afghanistan – not really with a mission, but with Red Cross – so I was in Afghanistan for eight months with the Red Cross. That was a challenge. And then I went to Congo, in Africa, with the Leprosy Mission, and I was there for fifteen years … which was a … challenge. [laughs]

I guess it’s been challenging to come back here after that, as well?

It was extremely difficult. I came back and I couldn’t work out why I couldn’t settle back in, and why I was so … confused, I guess was the word. I went to a retreat, and I was spending time in prayer and reading the Bible and that, and we came together in small groups for prayer. And all of a sudden the Lord made it perfectly plain to me: I was so angry. I was so angry with Australia. The anger that I felt was because in Africa, where I’d been, the people there have nothing and they give the Lord thanks for everything. And here we’ve got everything, and we give the Lord thanks for nothing. That was what was really making me angry.

How did you deal with that?

I just gave it to the Lord and said ‘This isn’t of you.’ I can’t do anything about the whole situation here, but at least by identifying it, I knew where I was standing. ‘Yes, it’s exactly that, so what are you going to do about it? Well, you’d better do something about telling some of the people here who gives them all these good things. Where they come from.’

So how have you done that?

Ooh. Well. I tried getting back into nursing, but it didn’t really work, because by that stage I was starting to get a bit old. It was alright while the girl in charge of the clinics was of my vintage, but when she retired and a young one came along, she really didn’t want any older people working there. So sadly it was some not very nice kind of feelings, that – no. But we get that, because you’ve got the difference between the hospital-trained and the university-trained. So I didn’t go, and as far as I’m concerned it was probably the right thing to do, because I left work then. I was old enough to retire, past retirement age, so I retired. And then I could do what I wanted to do, and what I felt the Lord was showing me to do. And He got me a lot more involved in my local church. I try and do some work with the Leprosy Mission here in Tasmania as well, and all those kinds of things. Relationships. People that I hadn’t had time with a lot of the time I was in Africa, so catching up with them and showing them why I was over there. Even some of my own family, I had to explain to them why I was over there.

That’s fantastic. Do you have stories that you can share with us of your time there?

Oh, so many. So many. So many times when the Lord was so in what was happening you couldn’t miss Him. You really couldn’t. Hmm, some stories… well, there’s a story – I was over there, and while I was over there, there were three wars. I would go through the war, and then they would evacuate me out at the end of it. Which always seemed a bit strange, but that was how it worked. When I went back again – and people would say to me, ‘You’re not going back again, are you?’ and I’d say ‘Well, yes! God took me there, and He hasn’t told me to come home yet, so I’m still there.’ So I went back, and I would talk with the people that I knew, the ones that I’d been working with and those sorts of things, and just ask them, ‘What did God do for you during this time?’ Which has been so hard for them. And the stories were incredible.

When I went back after the first lot of fighting, which was really, really horrible fighting, and I was out for nearly a year, and I went back. And I went through systematically with all the ones I’d worked with and said, ‘What happened?’ And there wasn’t one of them who didn’t tell me what God had done. One of the tricks the rebels used to do was if they found a family walking along the track, they would send the men one way and the women and children the other way, and often the men were not seen again. And they were going along, and this family got up to this thing, and the man said, ‘You’ – to the man, ‘you go that way, and you others you go that way.’ And as clear as anything, a voice was heard saying, ‘No, no, he goes with them.’ And they sort of looked around, but there wasn’t anyone there that they could see at all. And so the rebel just said ‘Oh, well. You’d better go with them then.’ And off he went with the family, and he was safe.

In another instance, the rebels had come into the town, and this family were in their home. Now their homes there are maybe two rooms, with a little kitchen outside. And they were huddled in the room praying for protection, because they could hear the rebels circling right round their house. They’re little mud brick houses with a window, and a door, maybe a second window. They’re there, and they’re praying like mad, and they thought, ‘They haven’t come in.’ And they could hear them saying, ‘Where’s the door? Is the door your side?’ ‘No, the door’s not over this side.’ ‘Well, it’s not over this side.’ And they were going round and round and round this little oblong house, and they couldn’t find the door. Guess who blinded them? Because the door was as obvious as anything.

It’s very Old Testament, isn’t it?

It’s incredible. Another time I was in Rwanda. We’d had to leave because the rebels were coming, and the local soldiers had gone up the hills because they realised if they stayed in the town and there was a big fight, a lot of the people would be hurt, and they didn’t want anyone hurt. So they went up the hills behind, and there was only maybe two thousand of them. And all these rebels come pouring in, you see, and start looking for the soldiers and they can’t find them anywhere. So they just took over the town with no fighting. And I’m sitting across the border in Rwanda, and I hear them say, ‘United Nations went to see where the Congolese army were’, because they knew they were up the hill. And they went to look, and they said, ‘They saw that there was about ten thousand Congolese soldiers who were preparing to come down onto the town.’ And I’m sitting there thinking, ‘No, there’s not ten thousand of them there.’ And no-one could have got there to help, to make ten thousand. There was only one, maybe two thousand. Anyhow, the rebels heard this and took off! They just ran and left. And some of the people from the town actually had to go up and say to the one or two thousand Congolese soldiers, ‘Uh, they’ve left, you can come back now.’ And that reminded me so much of the Old Testament story.

What do you think – and I haven’t given you any notice on this question – what do think it’s going to take for us to have those kinds of stories here in Australia?

Well, first of all, you have to actually expect them. Because, I’m sure many times they happen, but because you’re not expecting God to answer your prayer, or expecting God to act, you don’t see it!

You won’t see the thing as an act of God.

No, you go ‘Ooh, that was a coincidence, wasn’t it? Just as we were doing this, such and such happened.’ No, it doesn’t work like that. If you’re trusting God, then He will do something. And if you’ve got your eyes open, you will see it.

It’s like William Temple (former Archbishop of Canterbury) said, ‘When I pray, I see coincidences happen, and when I don’t pray, I don’t see them happen.’

That’s right. You’ve got to expect them, and when you pray you’ve got to expect God to answer. And it’s usually ‘yes’, ‘no’, or ‘not now’. In one way or another.

Do you have a story of your own life where God’s answered Yes, No, or Not Now?

I remember when I was about to go overseas, I was very comfortable here. I had a wonderful job that I loved, I was in charge of the burns unit at The Royal, I was doing a lot with children’s accident prevention, I had my own home, my own car… I was fine. And you always have to be careful when you’re fine and comfortable, because that’s when God suddenly says, ‘Now that you’re sitting comfortably and I’ve got your attention, I want you to go overseas.’ And I went, ‘Oh.’ So I madly started looking round: ‘Ooh, it’d be nice to work with children, ooh, what about this organisation, what about that one, they’re nice –‘

Comfortable.

Nice comfortable ones, yes. But the doors were all slammed shut. And I thought, ‘Hmm.’ And I can remember very easily praying one day. And I was like, ‘Lord, you’re telling me to go overseas but everywhere I’m trying, the doors are shut.’ The big word there was, ‘I am trying’, you see? Instead of saying, ‘Lord, where do you want me?’ I was looking for myself. And as clear as He was standing behind me, He says, ‘What about the one you’re involved in?’ And I went, ‘Oh! The Leprosy Mission! Now that’s novel.’ And I asked them, and everything flew open. It was so obvious that that’s where He wanted me. He was just waiting for me to ask Him.

So you worked with people who had leprosy, or is it wider than that?

Yes, there was leprosy, there was TB, and because of the TB there was some AIDS work there, and there was a thing called Buruli ulcer, which is a bit akin to tuberculosis.

So there’s quite some risk there for you – did you feel that you were going into a risky situation?

Well, I was going into Congo, so I was already in a risky situation!

Yes, stupid question, sorry. Daft.

[laughter]
Did you just trust God to protect you, or did you get to the point where you say ‘Whatever happens happens’?

I think when He puts you somewhere, then He’s going to look after you. Because He wants you there. He’s put you there, He’s given you the skills to do what He wants you to do, even if He expects you to keep learning just to keep ahead of those you’re supposed to be teaching. Yes, I see it as I’m under His umbrella. He’s got me protected under His umbrella. It’s when I step outside of that and say, ‘No Lord, I’ve had enough of Congo. I’ve been evacuated twice now, that’s enough, I’m not going back’, I’ve stepped out from underneath His umbrella, underneath His protection. That’s when I’m at risk. Not when I’m under His umbrella. When He told me clearly to come home, I came home. And when I came home and had all my medical checks and things, I found I’d got breast cancer. Perfect timing! There was no way it was going to get diagnosed out there. He has our whole life in His hands, not just the edge bits.

So when do you feel close to God?

All the time, in many ways, because I always know He’s there. I’ve always had this vision where He’s just sitting behind my shoulder. And that I can whisper to Him any time, and He can whisper to me any time. He knows exactly what’s going on; in fact, He knows further than I do. So there’s times when you do feel a bit distant, you sort of feel, ‘Ah, what is it? I just don’t feel I’m close to Him at the moment.’ And I always say, ‘Well, guess who moved?’ You just focus again on Him and pray, and ask for forgiveness for what you think you might have done wrong, or stepping away or whatever, and just ask Him to come back and be very close. Because then you’ve got all your guidance you need, and – you hope – control of your tongue, and your actions, and those sorts of things when He’s really close.

What’s one thing about God or Christianity that you wish everyone knew?

Oh, I wish everyone would know that God loves them, and that He’s there for them. Because so many people are so anxious and so looking for the answers for everything, and it’s right there! If only they knew about it, if only they would accept it, but it seems to easy just to accept. It’s not too easy, that’s the way he’s made it, so that by accepting Him, knowing who He is and what He’s done for us, then He’s ours, and we’re His. And together we are His hands, His voice, His feet here on Earth. We’re the ones that are going to tell other people about him, and that sort of thing. So many people just spend their whole lives looking, looking, looking, ‘What have I got to do? I’ve got to do all these things so that I please God’, or, ‘do all these things so He doesn’t get angry with me.’ Whereas if you just accept Him and have a beautiful relationship with Him, like you do with a really special friend, then it’s a beautiful thing. And you don’t have to be anxious all the time.

We’re out of time, but I want to ask – what would you tell the Church? What do you want the Church to know?

Not to get too tied up in rules and regulations and divisions. It doesn’t matter which Christian denomination you are, we’re all one family, and we should just be enjoying that and being together like a family. Families have differences and things like that, but they still are a family.

That’s lovely. Thank you very much for sharing with us. I could talk to you for ages, but I probably should bring it to a close! So thank you so much for sharing with us today. It’s been a blessing.

Today’s guest is my mother! My mother, otherwise known as Roslyn Langlois, has three children. I have an older brother and a younger sister, so I’m the middle child, and she has two grown-up grandchildren: a favourite granddaughter and a favourite grandson. Very handy.

(laughs) Absolutely.

Mum’s worked in many different positions and done many different things. She’s a concert pianist, so if you’re watching the video you can see the grand piano behind us, and she’s a choir conductor, and she gives wisdom to many. I wrote that, but I mean it. And she’s been the vice-president of a radio station –

True!

– so she’s led worship in all sorts of different situations, and she composes music as well, and there’s more. There’s so much more. So welcome Mum, it’s good to have you with us.

It’s lovely to be here.

A different kind of interview, I think, but it’s fun.
How did you become a Christian?

Well. I think it started pretty early, because my parents, your grandparents, were both Christians when I was born. My father had been studying theology, and Mum, I think, had told me about when she became a Christian, so I was born into that atmosphere. But I was in Sunday School, and in choirs, and I loved the Lord, all the way along. There was every reason to love him and no reason not to. But of course, as I got older, there were situations that were sort of crises, where my decision was to go with following the Lord. I’m just trying to think what some of the major ones would be.

I think that there was a point when Billy Graham came to Australia. He went all around the nation, and dad decided to go, and to take me, and we wanted to be in on it – or I wanted to be in on it.

How old were you then?

By this time I was fourteen, so I’d definitely been a Christian for quite a long time then. It was an amazing meeting, because I’d never seen so many people stack a football ground in North Hobart for that purpose. It was just lovely to hear the gospel preached, and Dad and I both went forward, which was, I suppose, affirming the fact that I wanted to follow the Lord.

Because Poppy was an Anglican minister, wasn’t he?

Yes, so he was a Christian Anglican minister.

When you went to university in Melbourne – mum attended the Conservatorium of Music in Melbourne – was that a challenge to your faith?

No, I don’t think it was a challenge in the sense that I felt there was any attack on it. I think that I’d learned over those years – because I had to be away from home even in high school years to go to school – and I guess I’d had the opportunity to make either decisions that were following Christ or not. I was not [perfect] I don’t think any of us are. I certainly had things that weren’t right, and that I had to repent of in that stage. The whole thing of going to Melbourne was itself a gift, and it was amazing, because at the beginning of that last year of school, which was year 12, I didn’t know what I was going to do. I was given the privilege of being the Head Girl of the school, so I was pretty engaged with what was going on there. Lovely things were happening in the school in terms of other girls coming to the Lord, and that sort of thing. But when I was approached by the Education Department and asked if I’d like to have this scholarship and go and study music in Melbourne … I can’t remember mum and dad and I having a conversation about it, but it must have been a mind-blower for them as well.

But it was very exciting, and I knew that was the Lord. And also, the music teacher that I had at Melbourne had been my examiner for the associate piano exam, and I sensed that he believed in the Lord, and sure enough that was the truth. So I had a very good piano teacher and felt the support from him, and I think I linked up pretty quickly with the Christian groups at the uni, because the Con was part of the rest of the uni. I really could be who I was.

I had a lovely red coat, that was (laughs) it was sort of the mark of who I was. I was short, and I had my little red coat, and I came from Tasmania down there, and opportunities came along very quickly for the development [of my faith]. I always was able to express, in one way or another, that what I was doing was enabled by the Lord – which it really was. And there were plenty of situations in which I needed the Lord’s help. I did have relatives in Melbourne, but I couldn’t see them very often – they were in a completely different part – so I was very much on my own. So there were things that had to work out through prayer, which included financial things, and where I was going to stay, because things weren’t always easy that way. So there were lots of opportunities, and my faith was just being built in one thing after another.

I remember there was a situation in which I was acutely conscious of not having enough money, because my shoes were wearing out. I did a lot of walking, and I didn’t have the money to get them fixed up. I remember saying something to my teacher, I think, my piano teacher, about pennies from heaven – just joking around – and within a couple of days I’d received, from people who were close to mum and dad in Tassie, the first of a number of cheques which came regularly to help me get through. So the pennies came from heaven!

Unfortunately we can’t go through mum’s whole life story – we don’t have time! So I was going to ask what made you and dad decide to become missionaries, but it sounds like it’s a very natural outworking. You’re already sharing the gospel with people all the time, you already have faith provision and that kind of thing, so it sounds like it was a very natural next step for you guys.

Yes, I guess it was. That is a big leap, from where I just was! So my brain has to go on fast forward.

Sorry.

Well, I think it’s John’s story as well as mine, of course, but I think that John had heard from his uncle and aunty such fantastic stories of how God had provided for them in all sorts of situations, so John having – what’s that saying – hammered his flag to the mast, as “Lord, whatever you want”. He was very open on that level, and so was I. It was a wonderful time actually, that time of our life in the church as a whole, in Australia, and in our state. People were rediscovering just how near God really was, and how He did call very personally, how He did provide, so we were both very open to that. We didn’t know what that was going to mean, and it meant quite a number of different things really.

Yes, because when I was very little you started in a sort of rehabilitation centre, living by faith there, and then you moved to a children’s home, and then you joined Youth With A Mission –

Which again, is very much living by faith.

Yes, we haven’t had a lot of money, ever. Plenty of experiences, but not a lot of money.

(laughs) That’s right.

So, classical music is obviously a very huge part of your life, and sharing God is obviously a huge part of your life. How have you been able to share God using classical music?

Yes, that’s been lovely really. I’ve found that people in all sorts of situations are very open to hearing you play the piano – in my case, that’s been what I could do – so in a way I just had to be prepared to open my mouth. I didn’t always feel as if I was as overt as I might be. I was wanting to do that, and I would pray about that, whoever I was with, because I worked with some excellent musicians, and just playing to people … but after a while I got the message, you know? God knew exactly what he was doing.

There were situations where I could be very overt, and there were others where … people are not dumb, you know? They hear where you’re coming from, and it was a really fine musician – I probably shouldn’t name names – but someone who I worked with quite a bit who’s a brilliant Australian musician, a string player. We were in the middle of a practice, and somehow just talking about who we were came up into our conversation, and he said something to the effect of “It’s very evident where you’re coming from.” Not in a reactive way, it was just in the conversation we were having, which was very reassuring, because I’m not the only Christian who’s sometimes thought “How overt should I be?” Because sometimes you feel as if what you could say would be utterly not part of that particular conversation, but there is a way of just following through in a conversation, which is just very natural, and not forced, and doesn’t make the person feel “Uh-oh, here I am, I’m going to hear it.”

So not bible-bashing, but just as it naturally comes out.

Yes, exactly.

So after YWAM, you and dad joined Christian Performing Artists’ Fellowship. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Yes, I think one of the really exciting things about that was how God got our attention. We were at a radio conference – because that was when we were in Christian radio in Hobart – and I didn’t find those conferences terribly interesting.

They’re not exactly mum’s kind of music.

It wasn’t even just the music – there were technical things … but I was at them, so I was there, and there was this particular session – I think we were in Melbourne. Just before it – I don’t even know who this person was – someone came up to me and said “You’re a musician, aren’t you? You might enjoy this!” and handed me a book that was called Spiritual Lives of the Great Composers by Patrick Kavanaugh. I thanked the person, because I had something interesting to do now through the meeting, and I sat down in the meeting and flicked through [the book]. There were things on this composer and that composer from over the centuries, and then I got to the end and it had a mission statement of The Christian Performing Artists’ Fellowship. And as I read that mission statement, it was just like an electric shock went through me, and I thought “This is so exciting – this is just what we’re on about.” Because at that stage in Youth With A Mission we’d been – when I say “we”, there was another lovely staff member who was a musician – we’d had music camps, and reached out to young musicians in Hobart and so on. So this absolutely fitted in that, you know? When I went home from Melbourne, this other staff member and I talked together about what we’d seen, and I wrote a letter to Patrick Kavanaugh. A few weeks later, when I wasn’t in any way thinking about it – in fact I think he woke us up from sleep at about seven o’clock in the morning (we probably needed to be woken up) – it was Patrick Kavanaugh, and he said he was really interested in coming out to assist us with a music camp, and that started off this whole wonderful relationship with Patrick and his wife, who are both wonderful musicians, but also with lots of other great musicians in the US, and students who came from the US, some came from Australia, some came from Russia, and Latvia, and it was just wonderful.

CPAF has a big summer camp, doesn’t it? Where Christian up-and-coming musicians from all around the place, as you say, get together and learn music and also learn about God.

That’s right, yes. Bible studies were a very important part of it, and John and I were both available on the counselling staff. It was a very wholistic sort of thing, but it was really saying “God is the giver of all these.” Whether it’s operatic singing, or acting, or playing the piano – God’s the giver of the gifts, and you can revel in those, and share that He’s the giver of the gifts. That’s your witness.

I think there’s this thing in performing arts with Christians, where you’re concerned about whether you’re giving enough of a witness, and you’ve had that same question.

Exactly.

As a writer, the encouragement is then to write something really overtly Christian which often – or sometimes – goes badly wrong. It becomes cheesy. Or in Christian music, or in Christian movies, or whatever. In classical music, unless you only play Bach, I guess you’re a bit stuck. So that message, as you say, that God is the giver of all these gifts and just by using our gifts to His glory, we can be a witness.

That is exactly right. That was such a major thing in that whole ministry, and I’m sure it still is. So that was how things unfolded there.

So you packed up from Tassie and moved over to the US.

Yes, I’m sure you remember it!

I do, because I had little babies.

And that was a challenge. I think all Christians will have to meet that challenge at some point, where you do actually have to make a choice, if that’s what God’s saying. And it is very challenging, and it is very difficult, and sometimes I’ve found as I’ve looked back – not on that particular instance, but some other things in our life – I’ve thought now “Did we really get it right, Lord? Was that really You? We thought it was, I hope we were right.” And you can really only just hand it over to the Lord. So it was very difficult to leave family, to leave our immediate family, yourself and Catherine and Anthony, and particularly this new generation coming up, because you know you’re going to miss out on all sorts of things, but we couldn’t get away from the fact that the Lord had called. With every bit of understanding that we had, that’s what it was.

God has been faithful, in terms of your relationship with my children.

Yes, hasn’t He? So faithful. And also in terms of our relationship with your generation, as well. It’s not that there haven’t been things we’ve had to work through, as all families have, but we’re just so blessed by the relationship with our own children – who are not children anymore!

So speaking of challenges, can you talk a little bit about the challenge of Parkinson’s?

Yes, I can! (laughs)

Yes, it is a challenge. It’s an interesting thing to be told that you’ve got a disease like that. This is what sort of came to me in the initial years, was that I could pray for healing for me, and believe for healing for me, but it very quickly came to me that there are thousands of people just in Australia alone with Parkinson’s. It really is a disease that a lot of people have, let alone other parts of the world. Especially the western world, I’m not sure about other parts. Anyway, having this thought, that there were so many people with Parkinson’s, the thing to do would be to pray for research, and that answers would be found, because there are very few answers when it comes to Parkinson’s. But the interesting thing is in the years that I’ve had it now, that there really has been quite a discovery of potential reasons – it’s still not absolutely secure – but even without reasons, things that you can do. So I’m involved now in the LED light sort of – I’m trying to think of the actual term –

The infrared light study that you’re participating in.

Yes, it’s just using ordinary people to be part of that.

Well, you have to have Parkinson’s.

(laughs) Yes, that’s the only thing.

I’ll put a link to that in the show notes, so people can read more about that study.

For us personally, for John and myself – John is my husband, and he’s very very much a part of this whole experience, because with having something like Parkinson’s, you do need a lot of support. So John has embraced being not only my husband, but my carer, which is very challenging to think that you need to have a carer. If I’ve got to have a carer, he’s a very good carer to have, let alone the rest of the family.

So another wonderful thing with this prayer about the research, and the Lord giving a way forward – which we can see that various things are coming to light now – but we’ve met some fantastic people. It’s like when I went to the conservatorium, the Lord has opened the door on relationships. There’s this young professor – well, I think he’s young, he’s probably mid-forties or something – he’s at a university in Sydney, and he’s getting some light on the subject – but he was just so happy to be supportive to us, so we’ve gotten to know him and his wife. And another lovely doctor, who’s supposedly retired – she’s also a musician – in the north of Tassie, and she’s very much following and supporting me and us. It’s just fantastic who God leads you to.

So there are some very difficult things about the actual condition – I don’t recommend that anyone want it to happen! But it’ll be alright.

Good things can come out of it.

Yes! Good things can.

So when do you feel close to God?

That’s a really lovely question. That’s always a filler, that line. (laughs) It really is. While I love worshipping God – I love playing, and singing, and being with people who love Him – whether it’s by myself, but often it’s with others, I love that situation of having the freedom to sing, to speak our prayers, but I think that there’s been so many situations when I’ve been in need and I don’t necessarily feel anything in particular, except that I know I can call out to God, and I do, and it’s amazing. I’m sure John could tell stories – I don’t know if he’d tell them, but they’re great stories – like “Where is my phone? I can’t find it.” Or wallet, you know, and I say “Lord, will you just help us find it? Because we need to get out of here pretty quickly and John needs his wallet.” And he finds it really quickly. I love those things.

But there’s far more to relationship with the Lord than that sort of thing. He’s just so kind and humble I think, in letting us ask Him about anything, run of the mill, but also big things where you’re just crying out. And we’ve had some real cry-out situations, and we do right up to the minute, and it’s wonderful to be able to just let the Lord hear. It’s so amazing how in the Scriptures we’re really encouraged as to how real we can be with the Lord. It’s silly to pretend with him. Those wonderful stories with women, of Jesus – both before and after the resurrection – they are so marvellous. And when you think of the fact that women were not held in very great esteem at all, at that time. But Jesus, I remember hearing years and years ago on an ABC broadcast this young woman saying that Jesus was the first… what’s the term?

Feminist?

Yes, the first feminist. I thought “Oh, that’s a good one!” In the sense of honouring women. He just honoured women, and protected them. “Leave her alone, this thing that she’s done is going to be told all over the world,” and sure enough it is. We’re in the place to be able to say “That’s true.” That’s exactly right. Right up to date.

I never thought that I was brought up as a feminist, and then I realised that you were actually a career mum. It never occurred to me growing up that you were actually a career mum.

That’s true.

And as a woman I’ve been encouraged by you to follow my dreams and to do whatever was there in front of me, which I really appreciate.

What’s one thing about God or Christianity that you wish everyone knew?

(chuckles) This is very much off the top of my head – again, it’s a fantastic question – one thing I wish everybody knew is that God is utterly approachable. Awesome, and amazing beyond anything we can imagine in terms of character and understanding and knowledge – I mean it’s God we’re talking about, so you sort of run out [of words]. But it’s the nearness and the personalness of God. I’m really glad that in our hymns and in some of the awesome music that has been composed for the glory of God – little allusion to Bach there – I think the thing is that He understands us. Right from the beginning of the Old Testament on, you see God who is approachable as well as the awesome God. Somehow all of that comes together. It’s super.

Thank you so much! That’s all my questions.

It’s lovely to talk to you. Always lovely to talk to my beloved daughter. And the other daughter, and the son.

This has been awesome. And don’t worry, I’m having an interview with Dad later. Thanks so much, Mum.

Share this:

Welcome, I’m Ruth Amos, and today I am talking to Pete. Pete is the senior pastor of our church, and he and his wife Lisa and their two teenage boys who are probably …

16 and 14

16 and 14 woohoo are good friends of ours. Obviously really good friends because I know the boys’ ages. All I know about them actually is that they are really tall, well Stephen is.

Pretty much.

So one of my favourite memories of Pete I thought I’d start with is when he first started at church and he was up the front of church and he was talking. I think you were possibly giving announcements but you may have even been preaching. And Stephen (who is the older child) came running up to the front of church and sort of grabbed hold of Pete’s leg. And Pete just put his hand on his head, and kept going.

It was Good Friday.

It was Good Friday was it?

Yeah Good Friday, I remember it really clearly, and he stayed with me for ten, fifteen minutes. And yeah, it’s special for me too.

And everyone who had a family in the church just went, ‘Ah that’s great, that’s so great.’

So there’s a question in my list, a question I’ve always wanted to ask you Pete, so I’m very excited about it. I’m really looking forward to this interview.

So, first question, back at the beginning, how did you become a Christian?

Well, for me there was a moment in time. So, for a lot of people there’s a long journey, and for me there was a long journey too. When I was a very young kid I wanted to know how I got to be here. And I asked my parents, I said, ‘What happens when you die?’ and I tried to imagine not being me. And that was really scary. I didn’t like that. But my parents weren’t really able to respond to those things and so I guess I just thought about it and so on.

But as any normal teenager, I kind of rebelled against most things I knew and so it was actually when I went to university that I first met with people that read the Bible and I read the Bible for myself for the first time at university.

So it’s kind of one of those weird things where the Bible or Christian faith was in the ether, in the air you breathe to some degree when I was growing up. But I’d never actually, in my memory at least, ever actually read the Bible for myself.

Where in the Bible did you start?

So pretty much that first year of uni was Mark’s gospel. So for me, I just read through Mark’s gospel with some friends, and we worked our way through it and for me I just found the person of Jesus compelling. I didn’t know at the end of that what his death on the cross meant, I couldn’t tell you the meaning of the resurrection, I didn’t actually know he was going to come back. So my theology was pretty … you know … According to the standards today I think well, I was probably pretty light on, but I knew Jesus was the person I needed to follow for the rest of my life and that’s where it all began.

And was that, when you say a group of friends, was that because of a Christian group or a Christian outreach?

Yeah there was a Christian group on campus and my sister was friends with some of them, and truth be told, there were some pretty girls there, and they may have had some influence on the situation. But God uses all those things, doesn’t he?

But I was a joker, so I made jokes when we were doing the study, but I was listening. So I really did want to know. And there was one guy in particular who, after every time we met, would take me to have a coffee together. And he just shared stuff in his life. I thought, ‘Wow, I’ve got to think a bit more about that.’ So he was pretty open with his life and was open about what God was doing in his life and teaching him. And that both freaked me out, and also really interested me, intrigued me, and I wanted to know more.

So did you have an altar call experience?

So I just found myself, I came from not believing, not following, to following almost overnight. And I can’t put it down to an exact date but just suddenly, everything just clicked. So I started reading the Bible, I read the Bible like ten chapters a day, and I wanted to know all these questions. So I wanted to know who are the twelve disciples? What are their names? How come their names are different in different gospels? What did they do? I mean, I don’t think anyone in the history of humanity has ever needed to know the answers to those questions, but for me, I did.

They were really weird questions. I just wanted to know. Because I wanted to make sure that what I was believing was actually based in fact and truth and history and all those things.

So you were doing a maths degree?

So I did a science degree and I went to university to do computer science. I thought computer science was it. Went and did first year, hated computer science. So I guess I just fell back on maths because I’d enjoyed maths going through school. So I did physics, maths, a bit of computer science (and I dropped computer science as soon as I could) and ended up doing honours in applied maths, meteorology, and astrophysics. It was just the sort of thing I enjoyed.

Anyone out there who thinks maths is boring, it basically is until third year uni. So you may have a long way to go but by that time it actually gets interesting.

OK, depending on who you are because my husband did maths until third year uni and then went. ‘Nope, done’. But then, he’s into computer science, so. Different brain, obviously.

Yeah for sure.

So how did you come from a science degree with a maths major and physics to being a pastor?

That’s the question, by the way, that’s the one I’ve always wanted to know. How do you come from science to pastor?

For me, I think I will always see myself, whether that’s legit or not, I will always see myself as a scientist, or a science background. It’s not so much I know this about the world, or I know that factor or that formula or whatever, but I think it’s a way of thinking. So I think that’s the best thing that I’ve learned that you don’t just accept things, you’ve got to think through, you’ve got to observe things, you’ve got to experiment, that scientific method I suppose. Test and approve and make sure.

So I think I carry that through, just in my life in general. And I actually think that’s helpful for Christian faith. It’s fair enough once you’ve become a Christian and you believe these things about God, it’s fine to believe those things, but when things really go wrong in your life, when the wheels fall off in your life, or in someone else’s then yes you want some deeper answers than simply, ‘well, I believe it’.

You actually need to know why you believe it. And for me, I needed to know for sure various things. I need to have some way of reconciling my Christian faith with my understanding of how the world works.

Now I’m not a biologist, I’m not a chemist, so some of the more biological questions I’ve only thought about more recently, but in terms of cosmology, and the beginning of the universe, those things, they were the things I had to deal with in the first instance to be able to be a credible Christian.

So there was a lecturer at uni who was in the physics department, a Christian, and he did a lecture called ‘God and Space-time’ and for me that was a really cool lunch time lecture to hear and to start thinking through how those two things are connected.

I guess I hope that in my pastoring that for people who come in who have apologetic type questions like, is the Bible true? Can you trust it? Can we be sure the New Testament documents are similar if not the same as what we have now, any transmission errors all those sorts of things? As well as obviously the big things of evolution, the big bang, all those sorts of issues that come up. Miracles, does God answer prayer, how does that work? I want to be able to have some sort of response to those things.

And we’d all love those answers right now but this is not a long enough podcast.

No worries. I’ll just say this one thing. I think when Christians come from a scientific background it’s easy for them to become a little too dogmatic about things. I guess in the church that we’re part of there are people with quite a range of different views and I’m actually OK with that. So there’s only one truth of how God did his thing and how it works, but there’s actually a range of views which still honour God. Only one is right but I’m happy in that diversity.

So I try not to be really dogmatic on those sorts of things because over time I’ve adjusted some of my views. And I hope there’s room for people with that sort of diversity of views there.

And I’m thinking, we’re doing a sermon series on 1 John at the moment and the way you’re talking makes me think John must have been a scientist as well, because that’s how he attacks it too. What we’ve seen with our eyes, touched with our hands, and yeah.

So just in terms of time scale and things, you finished off your undergrad degree, did you go straight into theology?

So I had three years where I did a range of different things. I guess I was fortunate because my dad was a lecturer in maths, a professor in maths, so that meant I had an easy entrance to do stuff, so I did some stuff others might have struggled to do just because I knew people and so on, I’d worked there before. So I did a range of stuff including some engineering tutorials, so I went straight back into academia doing that. I did some bridging courses over summer for, the majority of them were middle aged ladies who needed some maths to get into a uni course. And I loved that, I loved doing that. I wrote a couple of stats computer packages just to help nurses in particular do analysis of variance. I did some computer modelling in the Tamar valley, I failed miserably but …

I did a range of tutoring, like lecturing I suppose and I did that for about three years. Really loved that. But I was involved in helping out a Christian group at the same time as well. It was a very very busy time in my life, a hugely busy time, I’d just got married so it was fairly crazy.

And then, because of your involvement in the Christian group you decided to –

Yeah so after three years I decided I didn’t know anything else, I’d taught everything I knew. and I thought I’d better know something else. So I went to college because I really wanted to grow and learn and I’d given God four years in a science degree and I thought I’m still young I may as well just do some study. And I didn’t really have any sense of what I would do at the end, other than I wouldn’t get ordained. That’s the only thing I was sure about.

[laughter]

But it was just an opportunity to learn more and so on. Just part of the college community, it was really great. I didn’t do any formal ministry with the youth or anything for one year. I just cut all my ties in terms of responsibilities which was probably really good because I’d done a science degree and now I had to write essays and I had very few ideas about how you write an essay. So that was a learning time for me and then second year and third year and so on I took on other responsibilities in terms of the youth and young adults and so on which was great.

So why did you take the plunge and become ordained?

Yeah, it’s the million dollar question. I think for me there is always a reality check when you get near the end of a degree. And so there’s this reality, actually, I’m loving what I’m learning, and I want to be able to be useful for God, what does that look like?

And I guess I’ve never said, ‘God I’m not willing to do this’. I’ve never said I don’t want to be an overseas missionary. I’ve always been happy to do whatever he calls me to do, within reason. But as I researched the various things, it seemed to me that being involved in a local church was primary in God’s economy and that para-church was secondary.

Now, I don’t want anyone to get me wrong here. It doesn’t mean that para-church is less important. I’m not saying that at all. But I think that it’s only when local churches are strong that para-church ministries are able to exist and thrive. And what I was observing more and more was that all the best people were going para-church. All the dynamic young creative flexible, like, they were all going para-church and the church was left with old fuddy-duddies who didn’t know what they were doing.And I was challenged, really challenged by that because I wanted both to thrive. And so I thought maybe I should be thinking of being a pastor.

So then I went through the various denominations and tried to see what I wanted to do. I guess my theology was more on the charismatic end so I looked at various charismatic and Pentecostal churches but I found that there was at least one thing on the doctrinal basis that I was not able to agree to. And even if they didn’t actually believe it it was on the doctrinal basis. And so I found myself more and more going down the Anglican path. And I became an Anglican the week before my ordination.

[laughter]

I love that. I’ve told people that before – he wasn’t even an Anglican until just before he was ordained. It’s amazing. Well, I have to say I’m very grateful that you’ve become an Anglican and pastor our church.

What does Christianity look like in your daily life?

Look, it’s a great question. I think for me being a Christian is about that daily walk. So it means that whatever I do, and this is whether I was pastoring, or doing anything, that it’s got to be about Jesus. So at the end of Colossians, Colossians 3:17 it says, ‘whatever you do, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the father through him.’ And I reckon for me that’s kind of like a summary of what I’m trying to do.

It doesn’t really matter if I’m on holidays or pastoring, whatever it is, that’s what I’m trying to do. Life’s about Jesus and about honouring Jesus and serving Jesus. I guess looking for opportunities to serve him with whatever you’re doing.

And I think ultimately if I do that well and every member of our church does that well, that changes the world.

I’ve never been particularly flash on programs or methods or 1, 2, 3 steps, because it seems a little artificial for me. It’s just that daily walk with Jesus and trying to encourage people to do that.

And I think some people need a kick up the backside. I do. But most people need encouragement, really. So I just try to be an encourager to people to work out what’s stopping them from progressing and moving them forward.

How important (this is not a question I had in my list) I often ask people, ‘are you a get up at 4 o’clock in the morning and spend an hour reading the word and meditating and praying?’ and I haven’t had many positive responses.

Yeah right, I could say 2.30 but I would be lying. Look, I do like praying with others. I find that, I love praying just with the Lord, but it is good to pray with others. Traditionally once our 5am prayer meeting started I used to go twice a week. More recently, it’s been once a week. But I do love going along because I get the time to just pray by myself and then pray with others and it’s just an encouragement.

That’s true, every week day at 5am isn’t it?

Monday, Wednesday, Friday 5am at church.

We have prayer here at the church. You can tell how often I’ve been to that.

Well I do find that it changes my day, it really does, and it’s a discipline because you can’t just say, ‘OK it’s coffee time’. Because there are other people, and they are praying, and you’ve got to engage. So I do find that really helpful.

I probably prefer walking, I don’t really like just sitting in a couch praying because I find that’s more difficult. But I can read, read the Bible, but when I’m praying I do like to walk. I find my mind works a lot better when I’m active.

So when do you feel closest to God?

I think probably two times. Two sorts of times. One is when I’ve just had a really, really massive time of prayer, prayer and fasting, whatever, and I always think to myself, ‘why didn’t you do that yesterday?’. You know? It’s just stupid.

When Francis Chan was asked, ‘Why don’t you fast more?’ he says, ‘Because I love sushi’. In other words, there’s no good reason. There’s zero good reason. I had the privilege of praying with a couple of people a few weeks ago for quite a number of hours together and it was such a brilliant time. It was full-on but it was so good. And I think that close connection with God, that’s where it’s up to.

Secondly, I think I feel really close to God when I see him at work in other people and I just go, ‘God you’ve got your footprints, your fingerprints all over that’.

Depending on whether he’s touching them for healing, or booting them up the backside.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, either way.

God’s timing is, I mean, not all of the miracles of the Bible are miracles of timing, but as I’ve gone on I’ve realised that an awful lot are. And it doesn’t make it any less miraculous but God’s timing is always perfect, isn’t it?

And it’s taken me a long time to realise it’s my time that’s wrong, not his, but we’re working on that one.

And as you go through life with your eyes open you just see him at work and realise that he’s got his hand on everything.

Absolutely. When I was with the group in India two weeks ago, we met this young woman who was not sure about whether she was supposed to do the training or not. Because there was some conflict, her father had said no, and she wanted to honour him. And so she entered into a forty day fast.

Wow.

That’s hard for me to grasp, you know? And yeah I know that there are people in this church that have done that. So I get great inspiration when I hear testimony stories like that and I think, ‘Well, that’s … yes, more of that’.

What’s one thing about God or Christianity that you wish everyone knew?

Look at the risk of repeating what others may have said in this podcast before, it has to be grace.I just wish that people realised that it wasn’t, Christianity was not about this set of rules that you had to obey to get the tick from God. And I think that’s how most of us think. It’s just part of our nature.

I was coming home in a plane a couple of weeks ago and there was a young guy next to me, an Aussie, and an Italian girl from Milan. She had good fashion sense as you might imagine. And we got talking, they asked me about myself, I talked about what I did. And they asked me how to become a Christian and so on and it was just a great conversation. I just tried to communicate to them this grace because I’m not sure that growing up in Italy, or even growing up here in Australia that people really get that. It’s so alien.

We always work for everything, don’t we? You know, if you want money you’ve got to work, you’ve got to write a book, you’ve got to do something don’t you? Nothing comes for free.

And I just wish that people realised that God just loves us so much that he wants us to know him and so he gives us this free gift. Because we can’t earn it, we can’t buy it. But he just so wants us to receive it. We’ve got to receive it.

Today it’s my privilege, my great privilege to introduce to you Sandessa, who is my good friend.

Hi.

So Sandessa, or Dess, we usually call her Dess. It’s a nice name Sandessa, a combination of …

Sandra and Vanessa, thanks Dad, you are awesome.

Well you could get a good website. I’m sure there aren’t …

One day.

Anyway, off topic already. This is what happens. So Dess is a good friend of mine. We’ve been friends ever since we did a science degree together. And Dess has worked as a scientist, and as an administrator, and she’s also (I’ve written here, but I totally agree) a damn fine singer and songwriter.

Thanks.

It’s great to have you with us. Welcome.

Thank you.

So let’s start, as we always start, with how did you become a Christian?

Yeah, so I was brought up in a Christian family, I’m the youngest of four siblings. And my parents would take us to church every Sunday. A little bit sadly though, I’m the only Christian out of my siblings.

So I’ve always known God and though I walked away for a little bit for a couple of years there I’d already been baptised into the faith and God was always in the background in my mind saying, ‘Hey Dess, you need to come back to me. I’ve still got you. You might not be walking in my path but I’ve still got you.’

So was there a particular thing that brought you back after your walking away?

I had moved down to Hobart to go to uni, which was where I met you. And I had a period of time where I had a boyfriend living with me. And we both called ourselves Christians and we didn’t really go to church. I’d kind of been looking for a church to go to earlier in the year but hadn’t found anywhere that I’d liked – even though you kept saying, ‘Come to St Clements, come to St Clements’ and I’m like, ‘No, no, no, I’m going to find my own church’.

Anyway, the relationship broke down and I kind of ended up with depression and was feeling really low and felt like a hypocrite and finally took your advice and came to St Clements. And that was really the start for me. I walked into St Clements, and our church has this amazing stain glass wooden thing up the back and a circular step up the front that had material on it. And I walked into church and I went, ‘Oh my gosh, this is the church I’ve been looking for.’ The actual building itself was the building I’d been looking for.

Because I’d actually been there when I was younger. And had been going on my search for churches around the place thinking, ‘I wonder where that church was.’ And I walked in and I’m like, ‘This is it. Right. OK.’

So I started coming back to church and recommitted myself to God.

And how does your faith work itself out in your life now? Are you a one-hour in the morning devotion type?

Oh no. So as you know I’m not a morning person at all.

My faith, I’m still a bit hit and miss with my prayer life and my reading of the word. I’m really good on my days when I go to work. I work part-time and on those mornings I travel by bus. And unless I’m having a really good conversation with somebody I’ll be sitting there reading my Bible on my phone. And as I reach the top of Tolman’s Hill that’s when I put my phone away and I pray down into work, into Hobart.

That’s really nice, so that’s integrated into the bus trip. It’s a good use of bus time. That’s fantastic.

Absolutely. So on my days off, yeah, it doesn’t happen as much. I still pray in every situation and all the time but it’s not as rigorous and I’m less likely to pull out the Bible. To read the word in those times.

Yeah, it’s the importance of habits I guess. Nice

So, work. What do you do for a job.

I work for the Department of State Growth as a senior administration officer. In the State Roads Division. So my job is as it says, administration. I don’t really know what else to say about that. It’s just doing things that we need to do. We update intranet notices on our intranet page, we do basic correspondence – a lot of editing of other people’s work.

I want to ask, how many times has the name of the department you work for changed since you started working there?

[Laughter]

It’s actually only changed once for me. It’s pretty good. But one of my colleagues who has been there for forty years now, it’s changed five times I think since she’s been there. So I’m expecting another change in the next couple of years.

Do you enjoy it?

Mostly I do. And I’ve just received a promotion this year so I’m much happier with my job.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

But it has its moments. It’s not something that I aspired to do or to be, but God has blessed me with the gift of administration and this is the job that I’ve been blessed with.

How does your faith show itself where you work?

I was thinking about this and I thought, ‘Oh, how does it work out?’ I think … So it’s a secular world that I work in, and it’s very difficult to share your faith with people within the bounds of allowability. So I have to be very careful of what I say to people. Even things like finishing off my email. I would normally email my friends with ‘Blessings’ or ‘God bless’ at the end of it. And I have to change the way I do that with work so it’s ‘Cheers’ or ‘Kind regards’ or something like that. And I’m like, ‘it’s so not what I’m meaning’.

So most of the time I’m pretty sure most people know that I’m a Christian at work. And I think the most time that I would talk about God would really be when people ask me, ‘what did you do on the weekend?’ or ‘what have you got planned for the weekend?’ And I’ll say, ‘well I’ve got something on Saturday and church on Sunday’ or ‘I’m leading worship on Sunday’. Those sort of things.

Every now and again somebody might ask me about my faith, or people might tell me that something tough is going on in their lives. And that’s when I will ask them, ‘would you mind if I pray about that for you?’ Not then and there over them. But in my own time to put them on my prayer list basically and pray for that person. Pray for the circumstance.

I haven’t had anybody knock me back yet. But I have to be very discerning about who I offer that to as well.

Absolutely. If someone’s very anti- it’s not going to lead them closer is it?

Exactly. And if they are very anti- and there’s something going on in their lives, I just pray about it anyway.

[Laughter]

That’s right. That’s always a good thing.

I have written ‘what has God shown you in your work?’ Because I think we were having a conversation about coming to terms with working in this area when you wanted to work elsewhere. Would you like to talk about that?

What has God shown me in my work? Yeah, so, he’s shown me that I need to trust him. And it is really tough. My chosen vocation would be in science. Somehow. But unfortunately I got sick and have chronic RSI in my neck and can’t, basically, do all the microscope work that I would need to do in science.

Hunching over and looking down and all that affects the neck, yeah.

Yep. So that path of options for me, and something that I’m really interested in, I can’t do anymore.

So I kind of fell into administration after about four years of not being able to work. And initially it was, ‘I just need to find work. I just need to find something that I can have an income and support myself and that I can do physically and sustain it in the long run.’ So I had a couple of years with the police and then I moved to what was then the Department of Infrastructure, Energy, and Resources (now, State Growth). And it’s been in the last two years that I’ve managed to increase my time to four days a week. I used to be three days a week. So it’s a sign that there’s healing going on still for me which is awesome.

But in terms of my actual having peace about my job that’s really difficult still for me. And it’s an every day … I just have to be trusting God in that.

We get deep quick here in this podcast.

[Laughter]

But it’s hard. I mean it’s a dream … it’s giving up on a dream.

Absolutely. Yeah.

So are you going to make me cry?

[Laughter]

I’m thinking. Do I go there?

But God has shown you that you’re using your admin gifting in that place?

Yeah, I’ve been very begrudging about that. But yes, he has. It’s certainly not something that I thought I would ever have the skills for. It never even crossed my mind.

And I think initially when I started doing administration type things I was actually a volunteer at the church. Going to the office and helping the Petes (Pete Adlem, and Pete Greenwood) to organise and run the evening service that we had at church back in the day. And it was from there that we took (I say ‘we’ because I went through the Commonwealth Rehabilitation Services) so we took those skills of administration and went, ‘OK, so we can’t work in the science thing.’ We did several job trials in different places and that just caused more pain for me. So it was an, ‘OK can’t be in the lab, can’t be looking down, so you need something where your head is up, and working.’

So God’s shown me, he’s still teaching me that I need to rely on him. I need to trust him. And that if he wants me to do something, he’ll still open up that door. But it’s still really tough. Like even yesterday I was looking on the government jobs website and there were a couple of jobs advertised for the Royal’s pathology lab (the Royal Hobart Hospital). And I was like, ‘I could do that.’ I know I have the knowledge to do that. But my body, I don’t think would stand it.

So it’s still a love of mine to try and do that science but … I just have to surrender that.

We’re halfway through the journey. And I guess you wonder if you’re going to get answers before eternity or not but this is not an end of the story interview.

But I think it’s encouraging for people to hear people holding on to God when you’re still in the middle. When you haven’t come through to the other side yet.

Dess is making me cry too.

Let’s turn to music. How do you use your musical gifting for God? When did you start playing and singing?

Start playing and singing for God? Or start playing and singing?

From the start.

From the start. So my parents were both teachers and music teachers. And so I grew up in a family where my parents would always grab the guitars and we’d be singing around the campfire. Or if there was a party at home it would always end up with whoever would bring an instrument and we’d just all in play and sing. And just awesome fun times like that, which I love.

So I started singing when I was really young. And because I’m the youngest of four, everyone had their own parts, so I had to learn how to harmonise, so my brain automatically goes to a harmony on any song, pretty much. So that was the start for me.

I play guitar, a little bit of piano, and sax, tenor sax. I picked up piano first, when I was really young. I had a teacher and learned some of that. I didn’t really get along with the teacher though so at the end of grade six I gave that one up in exchange for playing sax in high school. I was in the band when I was younger with Youth Music Tasmania for several years which really helped me learn anything and everything really.

When I moved out of home when I was fifteen I got into a house where I didn’t have a piano to play but there was a guitar there and I wanted to be able to accompany myself and sing so I asked my Mum, ‘Can you teach me some chords?’ So she taught me the four basic chords, and away I went. I taught myself from there.

I keep asking knowledgeable people at church, ‘how do I do this? How do I do that?’ I pick their brains and learn from them.

So when did you start using that for God?

I think when I was in high school I would play my sax at the church I was going to in Scottsdale back then. There were always so many singers, so it was always, ‘there are too many singers, I don’t want to take anyone’s place.’ So I would play another instrument and that was fine.

And then when I came down to Hobart and started coming to St Clements, I think it was about six months in, I finally got up the courage to go and talk to Andrew Legg and I think I cried on him. Because I tend to do that when I’m approaching someone whom I admire and whom I’m a little bit scared of. And he was so gracious and he was like, ‘OK bring your sax along and let’s play’ and he was so good because I was playing by ear and so it probably took a couple of years before they were confident enough in what I was doing to mic me up and have me playing that way. And then again I was so scared that everyone was hearing me and I was like, ‘Oh my gosh!’

But yeah I started playing the sax and then with the evening church when that got started I started to play guitar and sing there and that’s where I started leading worship was at that. And then when I came back to morning church I joined back in with Andrew’s band. And then it became a, ‘I can’t do this one, can somebody else fill in?’ So I’m like, ‘OK sure, I’ll do that.’ So I started leading at the big church, and that’s where I’m at now.

Which is lovely. She does a beautiful job of leading worship I have to say.

Thanks Ruth.

Would you say that voice is your primary instrument now?

Yeah. That’s my passion. And I really do have a passion for helping God’s people to praise him and sing their hearts to him together at church. I really do. I absolutely love it when I can stop singing and just hear the church and they go for it and it makes my heart soar.

There’s nothing like it.

It’s amazing, it’s amazing. It’s so good and it’s just the best thing ever to hear people worship God all together. One heart, one voice, one mind. All together. It’s just beautiful.

So this year, just this year? You’ve been back at the conservatorium?

Halfway through last year.

Halfway through last year, to get extra training. So why did you go back to the conservatorium? Almost why did you go back to that university? What drew you there?

Part of it is because the Bible calls us, if you’re a musician, to be a skilled musician. And so because I’m self-taught, mostly, I didn’t necessarily feel like I had confidence in what I’m able to do. Or the understanding to be able to communicate with others what I want or that I understood what they were telling me when they were telling me what they want when I’m playing with them. So that was part of the reason, to be a skilful musician.

The other side of it is that I’ve been asking God for ages, ‘what is your plan for me?’ Given all my work stuff that’s gone on, and what I thought the plan was, was not the plan. So ‘God, what is the plan?’

New plan!

Yeah. And it was actually at the start of last year, about Easter last year I was up at a young adults conference in Brisbane. And at the end of that they were asking people who felt like God was calling them to be an evangelist to stand up and they would pray for them. And I was sitting there, knowing that The Great Commission is to go and make disciples. But also knowing that I really don’t feel confident in being an evangelist, or a teacher, or a minister. That’s not where my gifts lie. But also know that he’s called us to do The Great Commission so therefore it’s got to be in there somewhere.

So I was sitting there and I was asking God, ‘I really wish that I could stand up, but I know that’s not what you’re calling me to. That’s not where my gifts are.’ And he said to me, ‘What are your gifts Dess?’ I said, ‘Well music is a gift that you’ve given me.’ And he said to me, ‘This is what I want you to do.’ So I wrote down in my journal that I had at the time: To travel Tasmania, to visit the small churches to help them find the heartbeat of God. And to use music to do that.

It wasn’t exactly those words but that was the gist of it. So I came away going, ‘oh my gosh, wow’. Totally overwhelmed and unprepared.

I came back and talked to Pete about it and shared it with the rest of the music ministry team and everybody was like, ‘Yeah, that’s really good.’ It lined up with what Pete had been planning with our church, as one of the visions of our church to go and support other churches around the place. And one of the key things he had put there was with music. And he was just like, ‘I think that Dess, that’s you.’ And I don’t know how it’s going to work out yet, I’m still praying about that.

So I’m trying to think about how I can do that. I don’t know when it’s going to happen but part of me going to uni is not only to become a skilled musician but also to receive training so I can go out and train other people who don’t have the opportunity to go to uni and receive that sort of training.

And the other side of it is that I’m majoring in songwriting. And one of the key things that I’ve struggled with, with the music ministry in our church is finding the right songs for church. And as Ruth knows, I’ve written some songs for church. And I really like the idea of being able to write songs that I can just give to people and say, ‘Here’s a song that’s Biblically based, that’s easy to play, that’s easy to sing, that can be fun. Here you go, if you want to use it please do. Here’s a track of it, here’s some music of it, make it your own. And may the glory go to God.’

So that’s kind of the thoughts at this stage.

That’s fantastic. So you’re really quite busy then, if you’re working four days a week and part-time at uni?

Yes. It’s going to take me a while to finish uni, if I finish the degree. Because that’s the other thing too. I’ve got a Bachelor of Science with Honours, and I did three years of a PhD, but didn’t quite finish it. So I’m going to uni, and sure it would be great to get the piece of paper at the end, but that’s not the goal. The goal is to be trained and skilled to be able to go and do what God’s called me to do.

So if that means that I get part way through the course and God says, ‘OK, you’ve got enough, now we’re going to go down this road’ then I’ve just got to trust him and go with it. Which also frees you up when you’re studying at uni. You know, because we went through together, I was a pretty high achiever.

Yes.

And only got the highest marks in chemistry because of Ruth. She taught me as we studied together.

[Laughter]

Whereas now I’m free to not have to get the high marks. If I get them, that’s really awesome, but at the same time, if I just need to get something in for the sake of getting something in, as long as I pass then that’s fine.

Because you’re there for the learning, not for the piece of paper?

Exactly.

It’s taken the pressure off to realise that, and go for that. I just need to keep reminding myself of that.

I had my first exam for the course only about a month ago now. And I think I probably studied for about maybe three hours for the exam. Whereas with science it would have been a good solid two days worth of studying, 14 hours each day.

Absolutely.

So it was very different walking into that exam. And I’m confident that I passed.

I was talking to Josh (in episode 7) and he was saying the same thing. That his self-worth is not tied up in his marks anymore.

Absolutely.

Your self-worth gets wrapped into God, and then the learning is for the learning.

Yeah.

Would you like to say anything else about music?

Music is when I feel closest to God. And if I’m having a really bad day, week or whatever, if I feel really far from God, it’s most likely because I haven’t been praising him and worshipping him in my own life.

At the moment at church I’m on most weeks, not every week but most weeks I’m on in some way, shape, or form. And being part of that really does ground me because I have to make sure before I get up there and be one of the people who is leading the church, I have to make sure that I’m right with God. So it leads me to that confession and that repentance and getting my heart and my mind right with God again before I can stand up there and authentically lead people to worship him, and to praise him.

So that really helps to ground me and to draw me closer to him.

Do you put worship CDs on in the background at home and things like that?

I did this morning.

[Laughter]

Not as often as I should. When I go for a walk or whatever it’s normally worship music that I’m playing. And even my workout set for the gym finishes with this praise lot of music, cool music, and it’s very difficult not to sing with headphones in. At the gym.

So if you’re in a gym that just bursts into spontaneous worship or on a bus trip down to town that suddenly bursts into singing, you know that it’s Dess that’s done it.

Exactly.

But when I’m at home I don’t usually have music playing unless I need to learn something.

So it’s in the act of playing and singing that you feel closest to God?

Yes.

So to finish off, what’s one thing about God or Christianity that you wish everybody knew?

I wish everybody knew that God loves them. Unconditionally. There’s nothing you can do that will separate you from the love of God. And no matter what you’ve done, even the worst thing that you could possibly think of, God can forgive that .If you turn to him and ask him for forgiveness he will forgive that.

I wish people knew that because so often we just condemn ourselves and think, ‘I’m the worst person, how could anybody ever love me? Let alone God.’ But he does. He loves you.

Share this:

Welcome everybody. I’m Ruth Amos from ruthamos.com.au and today I’m with Patricia. Welcome Patricia. Do you want to be called Patricia?

Yes.

And Patricia is someone very special because I don’t know her. This is the first interview I’ve done with someone I don’t know at all. Personally. But Patricia knows my family and my great uncle and aunt and everybody so that’s the way it goes.

But I saw a video that Patricia did at a recent training day and I thought, ‘I have to have this person on my podcast.’ So I rang her up and she’s been very gracious and has come on my podcast which is lovely. So I really appreciate that and I think you will be as blown away by her story as I was.

But no pressure, Patricia.

Thank you

You’re very welcome.

Thank you very much. Look if my story helps somebody else, that’s all that’s important really. I was very reluctant to do it, actually, for the training day.

It’s a wonderful story.

However, God won. God won the battle.

He tends to do that.

He does, doesn’t he?

So can you tell us how you became a Christian?

I was brought up in a large family and my Dad and Mum were really very busy. I was born in 1930 and that was just the time when our society was beginning to emerge from the Great Depression. And my Mum and Dad, I never remember them reading the Bible. They had a Bible, a very big family bible up on top of their dresser in the sitting room, and as kids we had to climb up on a stool to get the Bible down to answer our Sunday School lessons. Because they sent us to Sunday School, and occasionally they would come to church.

But because there were so many of us and my Dad was a butcher and he raised his own stock, killed his own stock, and sold his own stock, he had two runs to the country twice a week. So they had really busy lives. Because he had to grow crops as well to feed to the cattle and so on.

So how many children were there?

Seven.

So we were sent to Sunday School but I never ever heard about a relationship with God. So I grew up thinking, if you try hard to be good, I thought well if was a good kid and I didn’t disobey my Mum and Dad too much, then maybe one day when I die I’d go to heaven.

That’s not quite the gospel is it?

Not quite the gospel, no.

But anyway there were two families, one lovely family had a lot of boys and one daughter. And also our Bible study lady who was a spinster, she taught us Bible stories. And I think that, looking back I really think that she had a relationship with God.

So one night there was an evangelist, a travelling evangelist who came to our town (Ulverstone up on the North West Coast) and the daughter, the only daughter of this family, said to me, ‘would you come?’ So I had to get permission from my Mum and she, when she heard I was going with this lovely lady, she was very happy for me to go.

So that was the first time I ever heard that being a Christian wasn’t just rocking up to church and Sunday School, and trying to do right. That everyone has sinned and fallen short of God’s standards and that I needed to have a relationship with him.

And he made it very clear that Jesus had died for my sin, had made this way for me to know him. And it didn’t happen right then and there, I walked around for two months feeling very convicted. One night just walking along I stopped at the end of our street and said, ‘I can’t go on any longer.’ Because one of the verses he’d used and it was with me all the time, was from Revelation 3:20 ‘I’m standing outside the door and knocking, if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I’ll come in and have fellowship with him and he with me.’

So I’d had this thing happening, my mind thinking, I haven’t opened that door of my heart to him. So I just answered, ‘I want you to come into my life’ and of course, he did. And that began the relationship.

Somebody, I must have told somebody and I can’t remember whom I told, but I was given a little John’s gospel, a little pocket gospel. I was 16 at the time and I was in my last year at high school. And I used to take this little gospel with me and read it whenever I got an opportunity. But always under cover because I was scared that if somebody found out that I was a Christian I wouldn’t have any friends. Isn’t it interesting? And that obviously was so important to me at that time.

However, God was at work, and his Spirit was at work, and I became thirsty and hungry to know him more.

When I was 17 I started nursing training and there was a group of lovely Christian nurses at the hospital and they took me under their wing and helped me grow as a Christian and we had lovely fellowship.

It’s really interesting, somebody shared with me just recently that we’re in the family, God brings us into the family through a relationship with Jesus. But then we grow in the family because we need the family to help us grow, wherever that might be.

I love that.

Yeah, it’s good isn’t it? I love that too, I thought it was good.

So that’s how I became a Christian.

So did you work, you worked as a nurse and that was your major work through your life?

Yes, I did, in those days it was four years general training and then I met this handsome young man from Launceston and he said, ‘when you do midwifery, come to Launceston and do your training there.’

So you were planning to do midwifery? Or did he tell you to?

No, no. He didn’t tell me to. I was planning to do it.

And so off I went, but just before I went, his father – he worked at his father’s shop – and that was sold. They’d been trying to sell it for years and couldn’t sell it, and eventually it sold and he was without a job. And his uncle who was in Coonarven in WA said, ‘come and work for us’. So the whole of the time I was doing midwifery training, which was nine months, he was away. But in hindsight it was good because I could concentrate on my studies.

So I did my midwifery and then I worked, I only worked for about six months in hospitals. My Mum was very ill and my sister who was just a bit older than me had been caring for her and she got married. So I went home to look after my Mum.

And then about twelve months later, I got married. And we had six children, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. We had five boys and the fifth boy presented with jaundice and he was orange when he was born. We didn’t know that my husband was Rh+ and I’m Rh– so the Rhesus factor was strong. And Chris had to go from Ulverstone to Launceston for an exchange transfusion. So then, after we got through all that, they said, ‘Don’t have any more children.’ Because they’ll be badly affected.

Well about four years later my daughter started to make her presence felt and it was a very hard pregnancy because we’d been told she could be stillborn, or miscarried, or brain-damaged. And so she was born six weeks premature, she had to be brought on, because she was badly affected. And they told us twice in three days that she wouldn’t make it through the night.

I’m telling you all this because I think this is all leading into what comes next.

I was so tired. But we got through and went through lots of hoops to have her blood taken, and another transfusion after she’d come home after six weeks in hospital. And life was pretty hectic.

With five boys and an unwell daughter, yeah. That would do it, that would make it hectic.

Yeah it did.

I was about 42 I’ve worked out when I entered into this horrible depression.

We would just say that was postnatal depression now?

Well my daughter, by this time she would have been seven. So I was tired. It could have been a form of postnatal depression and I just battled through it, and then there was a catalyst that started it all off. It was bang, bang, bang, anyway …

So I entered into that. There’s a lot that I can’t remember about that time which is really good.

I know I was on anti-depressant drugs and walking around feeling like a zombie, and feeling like ‘I can’t do this’. It all got so bad I just wanted to opt off the planet.

I tried a couple of times, but thankfully unsuccessfully.

And one of my sons came home from uni on holiday to find his Mum really depressed. And he said, ‘Mum, why are you depressed?’ I ended up saying, ‘They’re saying I’m having a breakdown.’ A nervous breakdown they said in those days.

And he said, ‘Have you memorised scripture?’

I said, ‘Yes, but I haven’t got the brain to remember it. My brain is so tired.’

He said, ‘You can remember where you live, your phone number, and a few other things. You can memorise scripture.’

So he got me going on memorising scripture. Not only that, but he taught me how to meditate. And I had never been taught about meditating on God’s word.

He said, ‘I want you to learn this verse.’ He was associated with The Navigators. And they were very strong on scripture.

He said, ‘When I come home for my next holiday I want you to memorise these twelve verses, and I want you to tell me how you’ve meditated on them.’ And he started off with Philippians 4:13 ‘I can do everything through Christ who gives me strength.’

And I realised that I hadn’t really been relying on Christ to give me strength up to this time. So I guess I’d reverted to being a nominal Christian. You know, to turn up at church and look good. And in those days you wouldn’t dare tell anybody that you were depressed. Because that would be so un-Christian.

However, I’ve found it very freeing since all this thing happened, this video thing that wasn’t intended for anybody else but clergy in Melbourne.

Anyway, I was climbing up to get all the medication I had. I kept the medication in the house in the top shelf in a high cupboard. And I thought, ‘I’m going to take it all.’ When my Mum was really sick, just before she died, we had to give her morphine injections. So I knew that the leftovers were there and I thought, ‘I’ll take everything I can find.’

I was climbing up the steps, and into my head came, ‘I can do everything through Christ who gives me strength.’ And it was almost like that voice saying, ‘If you trust me I’ll give you the strength to get through this.’

So I got down and I got through the first hour and so on, and so on. I got through the first day, and through the first week. And it went on and on and on.

And I won’t say I was never depressed again, I was. But because I was learning to trust God’s word, it came alive to me. That was what really got me through.

Do you have any tips for meditating on scripture that you could tell us?

Well only what was shared with me, and it seems to be effective. Even with one favourite verse, we’ll take that one for instance, I can do everything through Christ who gives me strength. So what does it say? Who is relying on Christ? I. Can – take it word by word, and then take it phrase by phrase. Think about who you trust in to give you the strength. God is. What a promise! That he will give us the strength if we trust him. So it’s really just taking it little by little and thinking about it and somehow the Spirit of God takes that.

And opens it up to you.

Yes.

So instead of thinking about how miserable I was, I began to really find that God was giving me that strength.

And you rewrite the pathways in your brain, don’t you?

I think that’s probably what is happening, yeah.

Although I’m sure it’s encouraging for people to hear that it wasn’t a miracle cure that just changed everything overnight. It’s a journey.

Yes it was. And it was really interesting because not long after I’d come through that initial stage of trusting God and getting that into my thinking, I was reading in the Psalms one day and Psalm 92 and I think it’s about verse 12 to 15, it’s talking about those who have been made righteous in God (through Christ of course, there’s no other way) that we’re like palm trees. What’s a palm tree like? Strong, tall. Or a ceder of Lebanon and that’s a tall tree, a strong tree. And even in their old age they will still remain fresh and green and bear fruit and be able to say at the end of their life, ‘the Lord is good.’ So I underlined it, I thought, ‘that’s so lovely’ you know how when you’re reading the Bible sometimes, the Spirit of God makes it jump out at you and you think ‘that’s beautiful.’ So I underlined it and I thought, ‘I don’t think God could ever use me when I’ve tried to opt off the planet, when I’ve been so tired, and so whatever and the focus would go back on me.’ And I forgot about it. It was in my very old Bible.

And then we had all these wonderful young people come in because we started using the Navigator Bible studies. We had nurses from the hospital come and say, ‘Would you do Bible studies with us? Will you pray with us?’ And we said ‘Yes, when can you come?’ ‘Six o’clock on Monday morning?’

Oh OK! Good, good.

So we had all these lovely young people coming and we were helping them, but they didn’t realise that they were strengthening me as well.

So that was a beautiful time in our lives. And I was doing Bible studies that really encouraged me and helped me as a mum and a wife. That was great.

And one of the wonderful Bible studies was The Way of Agape by Nancy Missler. And she’s gone to be with the Lord now. So we got her out to the North West Coast and she had a seminar with us so that was the beginning of a journey of being refreshed and refilled. That’s an ongoing thing, isn’t it? Billy Graham says, ‘I leak. The trouble is, I leak.’ And so we have to keep on being filled.

And that was my first encounter. I guess it was an encounter with the Spirit that I hadn’t really understood before. I know I received the Spirit of God when I became a Christian, because things changed. But I think I didn’t understand what it meant to be filled with God’s Spirit until I went through that time.

When we retired to Port Sorell there were two lovely women that I used to meet weekly with and pray. One of them was associated with Prison Fellowship. I don’t know if you know anything about that. It was started by Charles Colson that was during President Nixon’s presidency when the Watergate affair happened with the secret papers. And Charles Colson was the scapegoat for President Nixon.

President Nixon didn’t go to prison but he was, what do you say when a president is dethroned?

Impeached.

Yes, that’s right. He was impeached and Charles Colson went to prison. And he was horrified when he saw the condition of American prisons. And he thought, ‘I’ve got to do something about this.’ He’d become a real believer, he was a head believer, a nominal Christian like I was I guess, but just before he went into prison he became really born again. And that was a journey from brokenness to healing. And when he came out he started this Prison Fellowship. It’s world-wide. There’s volunteers in every state in Australia. This last year they just opened the organisation in the Northern Territory. So we’re just hoping that those lovely Aboriginal people will get to benefit from that because there’s been some horrible things happening there. So that’s lovely and there are a couple of workers there now.

So Prison Fellowship we were praying for in our little weekly prayer group. And then when David died, my husband died, I stayed on for another five years. We had ten years there together and then I stayed on for another five.

And then my eldest son said, ‘Mum we’re buying a property and we’d like to build a granny flat, will you come and live with us.’ So that’s how I’m here. They built this on.

And it’s a beautiful place. Just gorgeous.

Yes, it is lovely.

So, you moved down to Hobart to this Granny flat …

And then a dear friend from the same area where I lived, was sent to prison for something that he didn’t do. And his wife wasn’t well, and I said to her, ‘would you like me to go and visit, when you can’t visit, when you can’t come down. Like, in-between visits.’ She said, ‘Oh that would be wonderful.’

We went in and it was so in your face, so daunting, it was horrible. Going through security and seeing sad people. Hearing people shouting out. It was just horrible.

I remember there was a dear old couple, a couple of months older than me, but a dear old couple and I’m sure it was their son they were going to visit. And I thought how sad to have to come and visit your son in prison.

So I thought I’ve got to do more. So I took this need to a prayer group I was involved with. One of the ladies she’s actually physically disabled, but a warrior, a prayer warrior.

She said, ‘We have to do something about this. We have to go to that prison and sit in the carpark in our cars and we have to pray for that prison.’

So we went for about three or four years. And then she couldn’t drive her car so I used to go, and still do. About once a fortnight I go to the outside and pray for the prison.

But I started to pray that God would show me what I could do. What else I could do. And Iwent to an Art From the Inside exhibition. It’s put on by the Prison Fellowship every year. Each state gets prisoners to paint or do craft and they have an exhibition that is open to the public. And I went to the one that was in the old Cambridge St gaol. I was so moved by the stories of why they had written about this particular theme that I thought, ‘Oh my goodness, I’ve got to somehow reach them, somehow, I don’t know how.’

And so I mentioned it to the then manager for Tasmania, Ray Metcalfe, and he said, ‘will you come in to observe, I’d love for you to come in to the Shine program’ Have you heard of Shine?

I’ve heard of Shine. But in high schools.

It was originally designed for high schools but they’ve also adapted it for prison.

And I said, ‘What do you do?’

So he gave me a manual and I thought, ‘I don’t know about this, I don’t think I could do this’. However, I developed cancer, so it was put on hold, and I had surgery and I thought, ‘oh well, that’s it I suppose, I’m not going to get into prison.

Most people aren’t disappointed about not getting into prison.

[laughter]

That’s right.

Anyway, the thing I dreaded, I sailed through the surgery ok, and then was about to go back to see the surgeon to see if I needed chemo. and I was in panic mode, I dreaded chemo. At my stage in life, why would they want to keep me alive anyway? And I had to really face up to this trauma of me going through that. And so my daughter had given me a beautiful song that she’d written out for when I had the surgery. It’s called Oceans. And I thought, well that’s lovely, yes, I got through that alright. But when I was having this panic attack I thought, ‘What am I going to do, Father? What am I going to do?’

Well, ‘Get that poem out, get that song out’.

So I got the song out and read it again, and that’s when it became really, it really ministered to me and it got me through. Just thinking about, well, it was like he was saying to me, ‘I’ve been faithful to you and got you through the surgery, don’t you think I’m still with you? When the waters rise keep your eyes on me.’

I’m a slow learner, I think.

I think we all are. We go round and round the mountain.

So I went off to see the surgeon really at peace. And he said, ‘Do you want the good or the bad news?’

And I said, ‘Oh well, whichever. Whatever.’

So he said, ‘Well I had to take out 20 inches of your bowel.’

And I’m thinking, ‘Oh yes, well we have got a lot.’

He said, ‘Yes, you can manage without it. But the good news is, you don’t need chemo. Because I’ve got it all.’

God is so faithful.

Isn’t he?

So five years down the track I haven’t [relapsed], and now I don’t have to go every six months and have checkups or whatever.

So then it was, ‘Now, will you come to prison?’ and then the process of applying and having police checks and all those types of things.

Because that takes quite a long time, doesn’t it?

It does, yes. It was about nine months altogether. So I went into the Shine program. Well I just thought, ‘I just want to take all these ladies home!’

And one of the chaplains at that time said to me, ’85% of the women are here because they haven’t been parented well. They don’t know how to parent. Some of them have had their children taken from them. And they’ve landed themselves in here. The other 15% are because they are victims of domestic violence or for some other reason.’

So I went in and I thought, ‘What am I going to do about this? You’ll have to guide me, Father.’

So I had a lovely time in the Shine program. Two lovely young women, much younger than me, shared with the women and really helped them to learn how to set goals and get a different thinking about what they would do. And I thought, ‘that’s good.’

And then someone said, ‘ Would you be prepared to mentor somebody?’

I love one-on-one.

So I said, ‘Yes, alright, I’ll do that.’ So that was the next step.

And that was a real milestone for me being able to see this lady. I would pray before I went, ‘Father what do you want me to share today?’ and every time he would give me something. I’d get there and she’d say, ‘So what did he give you today for me?’ It was so special.

And then of course it’s been mentoring and visiting since then. And then one lady who had been doing craft wanted to put her attention on visiting, so they said, ‘would you help the lady who goes in to do card making, would you help her with that?’ So that’s what I’ve been doing on a Thursday for two hours in there.

And at that group we have forms in Prison Fellowship and a read out – this is what’s available. You can have somebody visit, you can have somebody do Bible study with you, you can have somebody to check up on your family if they’re struggling. We will help you when you get to going out on a visit outside and coming back – they call it section 42 (I don’t know why). Somebody to just be alongside them and help them out.

So they have to come and say, ‘I’d would really like this.’

Prison Fellowship also provide birthday presents for children up to 16, and the parent can write the sort of things that they would like, and we will buy those and they would write a little verse or something, a little message. Same thing with Christmas presents.

How much of your time, do you reckon this takes up every week?

Well, because two women have come out, that I mentored, I don’t want to see them go back in and I’ve been supporting them and they’ve both have become Christians. One is doing really well and she’s now being supported by someone from a church. She’s doing an Alpha course and she’s really going well.

So after I’ve been in, quite often I go to see her because I’m sort of half-way there to visit. So I guess from the time I leave home on Thursdays, usually just before 9, and I’m probably only home at 3.

That’s a big day

It is for an old woman.

And then the other one I’ve been seeing on Wednesdays and because she has her children it’s just a bit tough at the moment, trying to nail that one down. But anyway, she’s God’s responsibility and I just fit in when I can.

And then on Wednesday afternoons at the moment I’m visiting someone who’s asked for a visit. So I leave home at the same time, just before 9, visit the first one, and then might just have time to go and do some shopping, or just to go and sit quietly or have a nana-nap somewhere like Risdon Vale Dam. And then going back to prison for, it’s only half an hour, but it takes about an hour by the time you get in and get out again.

So I guess probably two full days a week.

And is a similar thing happening in the men’s prison?

Yes. Not card making.

No, really?

I heard on the news that there was around 40 female prisoners but ten times that many male prisoners. So the need is very great there.

Yes it is. And they have three wonderful chaplains. One of them volunteers one day a week and she’s only paid two days a week when she could be paid three. And then there’s two other chaplains, Luke is really the main chaplain and he’s a lovely man. So they do quite a bit and Prison Fellowship, we work in with them ( I think I said that, didn’t I). We work in conjunction with the chaplains.

Once the ladies have filled out requests we hand the request forms to the chaplain and he or she OKs it and then they’ll be in touch with Prison Fellowship who will assign someone for the things.

So I guess we are the main people who do one on one, but there are other organisations who go in, like Hillsong go in for a, they have a worship time. And then there’s a volunteer who goes in and plays her guitar. So she goes in to men’s minimum and medium and they have a service once a fortnight (I think it is).

In my church, it was really interesting because I don’t know if you know anything about the church next to the prison but it’s called Family Church, I think or Community Church, and they do a wonderful job. The pastor there has got that place on his heart, and he’s got a wonderful ministry there and the prison recognise that. He’s started getting children to have video sessions with their parents and he started children’s days where the children can go in. They have to have permission, of the person who is caring. And that’s just an amazing thing that’s been happening.

And I thought, ‘Lord, do you want me to start going to that church? I could probably be more involved with that.’ And I felt God was saying, ‘No, I want you to stay where you are, because I want you to make people aware of what they can do.’

So letter writing is a big thing. And do you know, there are three people at my church now who write letters. And last weekend in our little connect group, where we pray for the prison as well,these two ladies shared how they’d had a reply from the women that they’d written to and that doesn’t always happen. They were so excited that they got a reply and so encouraged to know that the letters to them was making a difference. So that’s special.

And then, so there are six women altogether now who are involved in Prison Fellowship. So I’m really thankful that God said no, not to go. He said, ‘stay where you are and make it known.’

And how have you found your experience with depression has helped in relating to people in the prison?

I think God uses broken people. I’m sure of that. When you’re willing to let him pick you up and put you together again, it’s very special. Because it’s almost like a rite of passage if you happen to share that I’ve been there.

I have a lovely little illustration of Japanese Art called Kintsugi. Do you know that?

Yeah, but do describe it, it’s amazing.

Well, when I saw it, I just thought, ‘that’s the story of my life’ So I got my daughter in law, she has a printer, and she prints out these beautiful pictures of a piece of pottery that has been broken. And if it’s a special piece of pottery, they don’t chuck it out like we westerners do, and buy another one. They put it together with a glue mixed with gold dust. And it enhances, it makes the art form even more beautiful, through the scars that are enhanced with gold.

And when I found that I thought, ‘it’s so wonderful, that’s what you do God. You take our brokenness.’ It really is Romans 8:28-29 for me because it says (I’m paraphrasing) God uses everything, even the hard things in our lives to make us more into the image of his Son, if we let him, of course. Because he knows beforehand what’s going to happen, and when we’re willing to come to him with our broken pieces and he can mend them and make them even more beautiful, I think that’s so lovely.

So I take these little pictures of the pottery that’s been mended and they use them on their cards sometimes. So they say to me sometimes, because it’s changing, the population in there is changing all the time, so I take them in and they say, ‘What’s this Miss Pat?’ (They call me Miss Pat – that’s my nickname in there.)

‘What’s this Miss Pat?’

‘That’s the story of my life’

‘What do you mean?’

So it gives me this lovely opportunity to say, ‘I’ve been broken.’

‘What? How did you get broken? What do you mean?’

And it gives you the opportunity to say, ‘My life isn’t perfect, it still isn’t. But when you’re in touch with the one who made us, and you bring your brokenness to him, he can mend it and make it even more beautiful. So you have the opportunity while you’re here to let him do that in your lives, if you’re willing.’

So that’s given some opportunities to share.

Would you encourage people to get involved with Prison Fellowship? Here in Tasmania, but also, I’m hoping I’ll have an audience in the wider world so …

Well I would because but I think you would need to ask God what he wants you to do.

It seems like there’s different levels of commitment. I mean you can go in, but you can write letters, or you can pray.

Pray. Pray. Praying is the most wonderful thing. I’ve got these wonderful women who pray for me, and I guess some of the men do too. Every week in our church bulletin there’s a little prayer list and I look at it and think, ‘This is so good.’ ‘Pray for our volunteers with Prison Fellowship.’ You know, these dear women, just to write a letter to somebody is just so encouraging. But to pray is even more wonderful.

And I think I couldn’t go in there if I didn’t have the assurance that the folk that I know pray are praying.

It was really interesting. When I turned 80. This was before I went into prison, when I was just praying for the prison, my friend and I would go and pray. But before I volunteered to go in, my family, one division of my family was going overseas. So the rest of the family said, ‘Mum, we’d love you to go and will you go?’ So I went with them.

When I came back I stayed with my daughter in Melbourne and she said, ‘I’ve put you in our caravan because you probably will have jet lag and you’ll need to sleep a lot.’ I said, ‘OK’ Never had jet lag, didn’t know what to expect.

The first night I woke up at about 3 o’clock in the morning, and I felt I heard God’s voice, ‘I want you to be called by the name that your mother gave you.’ And I’m thinking, ‘Am I having jet lag? Is this what happens with jet lag?’

‘No, you’re not having jet lag. It’s my voice talking to you.’

So I said, ‘OK Lord, why do you want me to be called Patricia, I’ve been called Pat for 80 years, how am I going to be called Patricia?’

He said, ‘Start with the people you haven’t met yet and tell them what your name is when you meet them.’

I said, ‘Why do you want me to be called by my name.’

He said, ‘Because it means “noble”.’

And I said, ‘But I don’t feel noble.’

He said, ‘You are, because you’re my child, and I’m the King of kings.’

And he said, ‘I’m giving you authority.’

And I’m saying, ‘What are you giving me authority for?’

‘If you’ll listen to me, I’ll tell you. Just keep listening.’

Well three years later, when I had my cancer, that’s when he really made me think, ‘OK. Is this what you mean?’

So, when I’m going in, when I go to the reception room at the prison, you have to clock in. No not, clock in, scan in. And then you walk down, and it takes about 7 or 8 minutes to walk from reception down to the women’s prison. You go through lots of security. And so there’s not one time I go down there when I don’t say, ‘Father, you’ve given me authority, so I put on the armour. I’m going in, just control everything today. And I go in your name. So whatever comes, whatever happens, help me to be aware of your voice, and to share what you give me.’

And I find that is just a really special thing. So I think that was for me, that understanding that I do have his authority as his child. Pretty awesome, isn’t it?

Very awesome.

There’s a couple of questions I ask everybody. So we’ll finish with these.

When do you feel closest to God?

When I’m still enough to hear his voice. And that’s a big thing for me, to be still. I’m a doer I think. But when he speaks to me from his word, and when he encourages me when I do hear his still small voice, that’s very special.

And I feel, I can’t nail it down to one thing, when I’m worshipping with my fellow believers in my church fellowship. That’s when I feel close to God too.

We have this gorgeous little boy, he’s the son of our rector. And a couple of weekends ago, a couple of Sundays ago, his daddy was leading us in worship and this little guy, he stood for the whole of the song. He wouldn’t be any more than about 14 months old, just standing there looking at his daddy playing his guitar and his mouth organ all at the one time. And you could tell his daddy was really worshiping and he was just standing there. And it was like God whispered to me, ‘That’s how I want you to gaze at me, like this little boy.’ And into my head came, ‘A little child shall lead them.’ So I thought that was so precious because I think that’s what he wants most of all. Us to gaze at him.

How wonderful.

What’s something about God and Christianity that you wish everyone knew?

I wish they would realise that it’s not religion that – religion doesn’t get you anywhere, but relationship is what God longs for. Because I had to learn that through brokenness, I think that’s the most important thing that I want to say.

And I think that’s why he’s opened the door for me to go in and share. It’s not religion, it’s relationship.

Are you still committing verses of scripture to memory?

I’m trying. Yes. I do love it. And I’m a bit slower than I used to be but I carry a verse around in my handbag and hopefully it will stay there. I have to look at it a lot more often than I used to. My brain isn’t as alert as it used to be.

What’s your verse at the moment?

It’s Psalm 37, this is from the Passion translation. ‘Keep trusting in the Lord, do what is right in his eyes. Fix your heart on the promises of God and you will be secure feasting on his faithfulness.’ That one in particular was lovely.

I always go through my interviews and I write out the scripture references and put them up on the show notes on the website, but I’m going to be really going today because you’ve put scripture, it’s been woven through the whole interview. It’s been lovely.

Well, thank you Ruth, because it really is important to me. I think when I saw the video that the Bishop had asked for, I said something and I thought, ‘That is right, that’s correct, I’m glad that came through.’ And it said, ‘To be in a place where the word of God is taught, has always been really important to me.’ And I guess probably because that’s the main way that God speaks to me. So I do love his word. I’d be lost without it.

Thank you so much for chatting with us today.

It’s a pleasure.

I’m sure it will bless many people, so thank you.

Thank you, Ruth. If it can do that, it’s worth it, isn’t it?

For sure.

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Welcome everybody, today’s guest is Matt. And Matt Garvin and I first met I think through Fusion – you were in Fusion and I was in YWAM (Youth With A Mission) and if you know Fusion at all then you know Matt’s name, for sure. And then, let’s see, I’m a bit of a Facebook addict, so Matt went to Canada and suddenly there are these things popping up on Facebook – sermons, recorded sermons and all kinds of things and I would listen to Matt’s sermons and read his blogs and that was really cool, following all your adventures, and then suddenly, big adventure: God was calling Matt back to tiny little Hobart where he is now pastor of a Baptist church and still posting sermons on Facebook so you can listen there.

Matt and Leanne have four grown up children, and it’s really good to chat with you.

No worries, it’s fun.

So can you start by telling us how you became a Christian?

Ah well, it’s a journey really. I remember being about three and inviting Jesus into my heart with my mum and then telling all my friends. But I think there’s also, there really was this journey of it gradually becoming more and more my own journey. So I chose not to get baptised until I left home and I was out in Broken Hill and I did this really boring discipleship course that the church ran there. But as I did it, it was enough for me to go, ‘this is real, this is mine, and Jesus, I want to follow you.’

And so from there I ended up doing the Fusion Bible college – I was in Broken Hill doing radio, working with TBH Broken Hill. Some friends of our family purchased that and I worked there for a couple of years, it was great. But then I did Fusion’s Bible college course, which became a Certificate 4 in Youth and Community Work and for me as we engaged with the Bible, all of a sudden, it wasn’t a big emotional thing, just all of a sudden you just saw more and things made more sense. And really from that point on I think it was no longer going to be possible for me to just work for money or, you know, I was then on an adventure.

Absolutely. So you grew up in a smallish Christian community?

I was counting up, I actually grew up in a number of them. Initially, my first twelve years were in the northern suburbs of Sydney – a place called Berowra – then we moved down to Sale in Victoria where Fusion purchased a farm and we lived there for about five years. There was a training course there, there was also an employment program teaching people how to do metalwork. It was just a fun place to grow up, on a farm as a kid.

And then after that we moved back to Sydney for a couple of years and in Broken Hill I lived in a convent with the church there and the Cornerstone mob at the convent in Broken Hill. And then came down here to Hobart and there was a bunch of Fusion people living in an intentional community, it didn’t last very long, but it was houses kind of linked together.

And then, eventually we purchased Poatina, and I, after living here in Hobart for about ten years, I married Leanne here, we moved to Poatina. And then ultimately we moved to Mornington in Victoria and there Fusion has an old officer’s mess that’s like a double storey building and at any one time there’s half a dozen homeless kids living with us as well as staff and everybody else. That’s an intentional community caring for the homeless. And then we came back to Poatina and ended up back here.

So I had a few experiences of growing in little communities around the place.

So my life is fairly similar, we started in a farm that was doing rehab and then we moved into a children’s foster home that was linked buildings, cottages for foster children and then we went to a monastery in Canberra and then when we moved back here, I actually prayed for a house with five bedrooms so that I could have my own bedroom, I forgot to pray that we’d be the only people living in the house.

[laughter]

So many of us in this house, you wouldn’t believe. And then we moved out to the farm again. So I was a really, I don’t know whether I’m strange or normal, but for me moving into a normal house in a normal street with a normal address, that was just one of the desires of my heart.

But how would you say having that, it’s hard to say because you lived it, but having that experience of community growing up, how that affected your life?

It meant I loved and hated community. I never planned to be a pastor, that was never part of the plan, but it meant I come into being a pastor with a sober understanding that people are messy, and that community requires grace. But it also requires difficult conversations. And just because we all believe in Jesus doesn’t mean it’s going to be simple. So I think it equipped me to be a pastor in ways I haven’t even been conscious of.

But it also gave me a vision, there’s a book that has shaped me (well, there’s a few books that have shaped me) but one is by a Canadian guy Jean Vanier called Community and Growth. He set up the L’Arche communities and he wrote this book just reflecting on the L’Arche communities for caring for the disabled that would go on to really influence Henri Nouwen. This book is just a reflection on the messiness and what is needed to build healthy community. And I think it gave me a vision, the best moments of community are like heaven on earth, and the worst moments are like hell on earth.

So I understand, we now own our house in Howrah, and there’s a whole series of miracles … we don’t own it, the bank owns it, we’re paying off the bank. But just having a little house in Howrah is lovely. But I know, I think I have a vision of what the church is meant to be. A picture of intentional community.

So you can see there are strong emotions associated with it, some are extremely positive and some are extremely negative. But all of it has shaped me.

For sure. Well, for sure, as in that’s my experience too.

So, how did you end up in Canada?

Well, it really was one of the most painful, it was a really painful journey. Because I had assumed I’d be working with Fusion for the rest of my life. Then we had this messy situation where my Dad ended up having to step down from leadership quickly. And a few of us stepped in to try and hold it together. And because my Dad was the founder of the organisation, when people lost trust in him, they lost trust – and things got really messy, it’s really hard to describe. There were people we had served alongside and they were family. When Christian community gets messy it’s horrible.

But a few of us stepped in to try to hold it together, and I stepped into the international leadership with a few friends for, in the end, two years in a row, with two different groups of people. But it seemed, after two years of trying, it became clear that, for some people, the experience and the pushing back against my Dad meant that being a ‘Garvin’ it wasn’t going to be possible to be productive.

So Fusion in Canada got to us and said, ‘we feel like God’s told us to offer you guys a sabbatical, to come and be with us for twelve months over here.’ I had done some teaching in Canada and connected with the Baptist seminary over there so I thought, ‘OK I’ll go and study my masters of theology for a year’.

And the whole journey was miraculous. Because with Fusion you don’t get a wage, you trust that the money will turn up and it does, similar to YWAM. And it was interesting getting on the plane with $200 in our pocket. We hadn’t had the money to buy passports but somehow God miraculously provided those. And then arriving in Canada with hardly any money and trusting and really walking through this journey and spending six months saying, ‘God, what’s going on?’

As part of the messy phase I’d actually written a book called Six Radical Decisions about what does it mean to live your faith? And it was really me trying to find my bearings. I looked at my best times in Christian community and in missions, and the worst times, and asked what is the stuff I was committed to. I was also looking at church history and saw that whenever the church was at it’s best there were six things that were true.

The first, and the main one was that people just loved Jesus, that’s the drive of everything. And it’s their love for Jesus that sets the tone for everything. But from that they discover a purpose, Jesus calls them into the world to do something. And as they step into that, they discover they need fellowship…

I ended up launching the book over in the UK and it was something special, going to the pub where CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien would sit down and having a cappuccino there. I wanted to have a beer but my son was with me. And just knowing the fellowship those guys had, it would have been dumb for the local pastor to try to tell CS Lewis how to write the Narnia Chronicles, but the kind of fellowship he could have with the Inklings was what he needed. And the same with Tolkien. And I understand that Tolkien would never have got around to getting the Lord of the Rings published had CS Lewis not kicked him up the backside.

And also, being in a church down in Clapham where Wilberforce helped build and seeing the Clapham set and how they were called to politics, but a politics that changed the world and changed England. And all that came from Wesley.

So seeing the place whenever the church has been its best, there is real fellowship at the heart of it. But it’s fellowship that comes out of an understanding that people are called. It’s not fellowship for fellowship’s sake. So that was the third one.

And then from that realising that the church is at its best when it’s being hospitable. And when it’s not been living for itself, it’s empowering others. And then ultimately it’s about hanging on. When everything in you is screaming to give up, whenever the church has been at its best people are hanging on and trusting Jesus. And it’s usually going through moments of hell.

There’s somebody who doesn’t want the church to be at its best.

That’s exactly right. So I’d written this book saying all this and we were over in Canada, and I was praying, and in the past we’d run out of money before and we’d prayed and God had used money to get our attention. This time we were praying and the money wasn’t coming. And we were saying, ‘God what are you doing?’ And we ended up getting called into ministry, that sounds a bit, but we really did, there was this sense that it was right to go into a church and try and see if we could build the stuff that God had shown me through my twenty years in Fusion and that I’d tried to name in that book, in the life of a church.

In the local church. So moving from para-church to church?

Yeah, that’s right.

And build it. Even though we’re all in different houses and different places and whatever, can we be that community?

And that’s what’s been driving me. And trying to understand, realise how much our understanding of a church has been culturally shaped.

I found an enemy, actually. He was a good man, he’s a man by the name of Donald McGavran who most people have never heard of but he wrote a book about church growth back in the fifties. And he just wanted to grow the church, he’s not a bad man, but the paradigm he communicated of what the church was meant to be, became our paradigm of church.

And it’s always nice to have a textbook, isn’t it?

Yeah. But there are fundamental flaws that have shaped the whole western church, building on his stuff since then. So people like Hybels and all those others would point to McGavran and say, ‘this is what we’re working on’. But McGavran’s idea was that the purpose of the church was to grow the church. And he actually said we only need three roles – we need pastors and evangelists and we need faithful church people who will pay for the other two, pretty much.

OK that doesn’t actually sound like the scripture verse I remember.

No, no, no. So it becomes a narrow ecclesiology. So if you’re in this paradigm, if you want to take your faith seriously, you have to become an evangelist. We actually don’t have, we haven’t had a strong theology of the arts or a theology of health care or being a lawyer or doctor. And some people are actually called to other things than evangelism. And it’s this paradigm that’s shaped organisations like Fusion, and YWAM, and Youth for Christ, they all sprung up around the same time and they are all very evangelistically focussed which is great, but we needed a broader theology, and we needed a theology that was more than the four spiritual laws.

So I think I realised, being over there, being in North America, seeing how cultural the church was, and this was really clear, that the way we’ve done church up to this point, cannot be the way we do church in the future. And some of the stuff I picked up and that you’ve picked up through living in intentional community and the wrestle for how you step into the mess of integrity and living faith in the mess of reality and all, I think that’s more where we need to head. We need to head to ‘what does it mean to be an authentic community of followers of Jesus?’

Which is a very different way of doing church. It’s much more than what happens on a Sunday morning.

So that’s what we were wrestling with in Canada. And it’s interesting, God had taken the church over there, really special people, we love them and we really miss them, on a journey. They’d done the Rick Warren phase, they’d done the Bill Hybels phase, they’d done the forty days of whatever, but they got to the point of saying, ‘who do we want to be?’ And they got to a point of saying, ‘we want to be followers of Jesus. But we know we need to help people step into mission and we don’t know how to do that.’ So they created this big open job description and said, ‘come and help our church move into mission.’ And it was on the basis of that that I ended up being their mission pastor for five years.

Fantastic. So one of my favourite moments with you in that church was the final farewell video where they said that when you turned up at the church they couldn’t understand a word you were saying.

Yeah that’s right.

Which brings me to, OK so you’re growing a church community there and it’s wonderful, why come back here?

It was a bit of an identity crisis. I think God took us to Canada for lots of reasons. We thought we were going there to change Canada, God was actually taking us to, I think heal, and grow, and go through the identity crisis that was becoming a pastor for me. I really never planned to be a pastor.

But after three years, there was something wrong. We tried to settle, we really tried to settle in Canada. We loved the people, we loved the church. It was interesting, Keith who knew your parents, he had arrived there and said, ‘Do you know the Langlois? ‘Yeah, I know the Langlois.’ Anyway, because he’d met with them and he was now our worship pastor and it really felt like we were getting somewhere. But we just couldn’t settle.

We went off to a conference, and again, the Christian Missionary Alliance churches in Canada are fantastic but the conferences were unlike any conferences we had been to before. They were at the Chateau Lake Louise, the Fairmont hotel there, they were fantastic. But we went to one every year, we’d go off and spend three or four days at the Fairmont. And this time we went and at a prayer time we got a bunch of people together and said, ‘We want to ask you to pray for us. We’re just feeling really unsettled and we can’t, the money won’t free up for us to buy a house, and … there’s something going on. Is there something in us that’s wrong?’

Anyway, we prayed into it and were given a bit of a picture that we were on this journey and that God was going to take us somewhere. And we just had a sense that God was going to take us out and maybe back to Australia. And the day we got back from that conference Stephen Baxter, who is the state leader now for the Baptists in Tasmania, sent us an email. This job at Citywide Baptist had been advertised and initially I’d looked at it and thought, ‘I don’t think so’ but I looked at it again and looked at the job description, looked at the heart of the church and thought, ‘you know I don’t know if you’d get a better match’.

And I sent him back an email and said, ‘Well, mate, we’d be open to it’ and so we began a dialogue and in the process of talking with the crew here, this church here at Citywide had been on a journey too.

And they were uniquely positioned, the Mornington campus which was Citygate Baptist church had been formed when the bridge fell down, and it already had this creative edge trying to respond to community needs. Because they were brought together, they were Baptists and Anglicans and all kinds of people together after the bridge and that was part of the DNA. And over here in Lenah Valley where we are, at the campus here, there really had been a journey for them too of working out what it means to love the community. And then they became one campus and we had a Nepalese congregation and actually we have an art exhibition here right now, one of our Nepalese guys who communicated his journey as a refugee and coming to love Australia.

We talked to the church here and it seemed right to come back. And again, God confirmed it in so many ways. So much so that we had a pastor’s prayer team around us in our little church in Canada, and we went and said to our six prayer people, ‘we think God’s asking us to maybe go back to Australia’ and three of them said, ‘Oh good. Because God’s already told us, and we didn’t know how to tell you.’

Oh wow. Isn’t that amazing?

And then, subsequently we’d find after we agreed to come back, that Leanne’s mum had been diagnosed with Parkinson’s and also after we agreed to come back I found out my dad had been diagnosed with Parkinson’s. And so at so many levels, and even the fact that we were able to, which is almost miraculous in the Hobart housing climate, to find a house that we could rent straight away and then after a while we could purchase, so we didn’t have to move again.

And there’s this sense, I think it’s probably similar to you, I am so pleased at the moment just to put down roots. I don’t want to move again, we’re here, and it feels like this is a big enough challenge. To work out how do we do this kind of church. How do we be?

Our best way of describing it at the moment is that we want to follow Jesus into the adventure of whole life and authentic community. That’s our best way of trying to explain the heart of what we’re trying to do. We’re want to follow Jesus into the adventure of whole life and authentic community.

And so we’ve been on this journey as a church, trying to name what we’re trying to do and how to get there. And if feels like we’re now starting to get somewhere, we’re starting to put some legs on it.

Because it just takes time, doesn’t it? I mean, it takes a long time.

It’s taken eighteen months for them to look me over and me to look them over and we’re becoming friends. And I think there’s this sense of, and again God’s timing, we came back and we had the 40th anniversary of the establishment of the Mornington campus, the 70th anniversary of here at Lenah Valley, and the 10th anniversary of them coming together, all in the same eighteen months. And then we had the Nepalese guys who we officially welcomed as the third congregation and we’re learning so much from them.

So it’s a gift. I now feel, it was a horrible disillusioning time leaving Fusion, but I am so much freer now than I ever have been. And it’s fun. This adventure is fun.

Isn’t that amazing?

And you haven’t rejected Fusion, you run Foundations courses regularly here.

Oh yeah, look the truth is, Fusion in Australia has stopped running Foundations courses, they’re still running them all around the world. But yeah, absolutely, we’re still trying to work out how to support the Fusion crew the best we can, and stay in touch.

But clearly, I feel like we’re working for the same path, that hasn’t changed. But we’re not part of Fusion in Australia in the same way, we’re now on the outside looking in, and love what they’re about and want to do whatever we can at all to encourage it.

And work through the local church and build community here where we are.

And love working in partnership with the other churches, getting to know the crew on the eastern shore and hear at Lenah Valley. One of the challenges of having more than one campus is that at Christmas time we have carols here at Lenah Valley and over at the eastern shore, and things happening everywhere. But it’s fun.

And I think there’s a chance to find a way to do church differently. So it’s good.

So you’re still fairly active online, do you want to give us info about your blog and podcast in case people want to check it out?

Sure. The blog is faithreflections.org and that’s really therapy. It’s me trying to work out, make sense of stuff. And also trying, like at the moment I’m trying to work out what does church membership look like? What’s the relationship of the church to other churches? So I’m just writing about that stuff.

I wrote a blog about the same sex marriage debate, working that through. I’ve written a lot about leadership, and all kinds of things. I started it back in 2010 and it’s sort of been …

It’s like what you were saying with your book, it’s actually as you write it out, you start to understand what you actually think about those things.

Yeah

Well that’s what I find.

Absolutely. And it got me off and away. Like it actually started, my first book was just an anthology of blogs. So I started to realise that it was possible.

Now with the church we’ve got a podcast where all the sermons every Sunday get uploaded. And also we are now broadcasting the sermons live to Facebook and they also get uploaded to YouTube. And we’re developing a congregation of online viewers, which is fascinating. Like, a lot of services come from The States, but people are enjoying having a Tasmanian thing they can tune in to and be part of. So Citywide Baptist Church on Facebook, every Sunday the sermon gets uploaded and is actually broadcast live.

And that’s just been a functional thing, we’ve had to because we’ve got these two campuses and I was wrestling with, ‘how do we take this journey together?’ and what it means is we’re actually simulcasting. I’m normally two weeks at Mornington because it’s a slightly bigger congregation than here, and then one week here. But either way, wherever I’m preaching from, the other side is getting the same sermon. So that’s what we’re doing.

Fantastic.

OK, a couple of questions I ask everybody. First one: When do you feel closest to God?

It varies. For me, in the morning with my cup of coffee in my quiet time is essential for me. That’s like a lifeline.

Some of my most precious moments have been in mission. Where you just, where God turns up and there’s stuff happening you can’t explain and you’re shoulder to shoulder with friends. I’m not naturally an extrovert. Being alone recharges my batteries, but I think probably the most profound times have been with friends.

A number of times me and my friends, when we were working with Fusion, we didn’t have the answers but we’d go into a school and we had to run a program and we’d say, ‘OK God, what are we going to do?’

Turn up now, please.

And he did. And people’s lives were changed.

So those probably are the two edges.

What does your quiet time look like, can I ask? Going into the intimate moments.

For the first 25 years of my life I used to feel guilty because I knew I needed to have it more regularly, but I cracked the code when I realised that if I have it with my first cup of coffee, so I have my cup of coffee in my hand, and I go and find a quiet space.

And I’ve been through different phases, like I’ve read different versions of the Bible, I went through a Message phase, I’m back to the NIV now, and I usually, I’ve got book marks in the Old Testament, in the Psalms, in the Gospels, and in the rest of the New Testament, working through them sequentially, gradually. But also I’ve got a list of stuff, an ongoing list of particular things to be praying for. My memory can be all over the place so I need to find things trigger my memory for prayer.

And I also, at the moment I get an email from Richard Rohr. So I read his email, because he’s a bit left of centre and I find that challenging so I find it helpful. And I’m reading through this new catechism thing from the Tim Keller mob. The more New Reformed mob. Just to read a bit of those things.

And I journal. Mostly I say, ‘God help’ but also ‘Jesus what are you saying?’ and it’s almost always the same thing, ‘Relax man, it’s ok, I’ve got you.’ But the journaling for me is often getting out my fears and stuff.

I find it hard to do it in less than half an hour. So it’s usually 45 minutes or an hour. But that space is pretty essential.

It’s interesting that in the author community, we’re encouraged to do something that’s called ‘Morning Pages’. Which is three pages of free writing in your journal. And I think, ‘isn’t that funny? Christians knew that one already.’You know, read something good, write in your journal. Got that one.

Finally, what’s something about God and Christianity that you wish everyone knew?

I think some of the stuff that I’ve learned over the last six years is I think I spent a lot of years trying to avoid the pain. I would avoid difficult conversations. And I think one of the truths that’s right through the Bible – Jesus says, ‘unless you’re ready to give up your life for my sake, you won’t find it, but if you’re willing to give up your life that’s where you’ll find your life’ – that you’ll find your life on the other side of the pain.

I’m not avoiding it, not looking for coping strategies to deal with it, but that Christianity calls you to maturity, it calls you to wholeness. In Galatians it says, it’s for freedom you’ve been set free but don’t use your freedom as an excuse to do anything you want. It’s when you have coping strategies to avoid the pain, or where you run away or whatever it just keeps you immature.

So I feel like, as I look back on my life, I am grateful for the difficult moments. I am not grateful for them in the moment usually, but there’s something, when I step into it and stop avoiding it, I think there’s the idea that we can see in Ephesians 4 (which I keep coming back to) when the church is working well, when the gifts are working well, people are growing up. People are finding their unique purpose in life. When the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers are working well people are finding their unique works of service. This is what Paul says. He says, come on boys and girls, the church is meant to be this place that helps us grow up.

And I think we’ve mistaken what the task of a church is. I think we’ve bought into the consumer mindset that says that the church is a product to help me feel better. It’s a product I can consume. Whereas the church is meant to be a family that helps me grow up and find my right relationship with God and the world.

And the outcome of the church working well, and the outcome of Christianity when it works well is mature people. People who are grounded. Who aren’t tossed around. Paul’s picture of immaturity is being tossed around by life like you’re a cork on the waves. So I think we’ve settled for a weak version of Christianity that is tempting. I understand the temptation, if there was such a thing as a prosperity gospel that was true, I can understand the temptation. But it’s dangerous, that stuff. And we end up with churches full of immature people because we don’t have the hard discussions and we tell them that somehow God should save you from the pain.

Probably about four years ago I realised that Psalm 23 says ‘even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil because you are with me’. God doesn’t save us from the valley of the shadow of death in our lives.

Anyway, I’ll stop raving on.

No, that’s so great. Well, there’s so much to think about there. Thank you Matt very much for talking with us today.