Trump, Schumer, Pelosi Consider Repealing Debt Ceiling Altogether

President Trump and Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) have agreed to pursue a deal that would permanently remove the requirement that Congress repeatedly raise the debt ceiling, three people familiar with the decision said. Trump and Schumer discussed the idea Wednesday during an Oval Office meeting. The two, along with House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D–Calif.), agreed to work together over the next several months to try to finalize a plan, which would need to be approved by Congress. One of the people familiar described it as a “gentlemen’s agreement.” The three people spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss details of the meeting.

...

On Thursday, Trump was asked by a reporter at the White House about abolishing the congressional process for raising the debt ceiling. He replied that "there are lots of good reasons to do that." "It could be discussed," Trump said. "For many years, people have been talking about getting rid of [the] debt ceiling altogether." He confirmed during the exchange with reporters at the White House that the issue was discussed during his meeting with congressional leaders on Wednesday.

...

Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin has suggested scrapping the existing debt-limit process and replacing it with one that automatically lifts the borrowing limit every time Congress appropriates future spending.

...

Many conservatives view regular debt-ceiling votes as an opportunity to drive their message that the country continues to rack up debt, which they consider a dangerous trend that could eventually damage the U.S. economy. The issue is also one of a handful of must-pass bills that Congress has at times used to win concessions on fiscal policy issues. Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) was one of several Senate conservatives who said abandoning that power would be misguided. "I think the debt limit should be used to try to bring to reform in Congress," Paul said Thursday. "I think the debt limit is a good vote to have."

"The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

-Ludwig von Mises

"Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

-Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

"The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

On its face, it does seem really silly, congress passes a bill to spend money, then has to pass a separate bill to authorize the treasury to issue debt to cover the spending, meanwhile every politician constantly says we pay our bills, and the debt ceiling must be raised no matter what.

I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16

There won't be a contested convention

Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17

The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

It really annoys me to read articles by "experts" who say the debt ceiling is a bad thing because it causes a crisis every time we hit it. What they fail to realize is that those crisis are miniscule compared to the ultimate crisis that the debt ceiling is designed to prevent. The true debt crisis is when we have too much debt, not when we fail to increase it.

Anyway it appears that they raised it officially. Now I can start watching the debt grow again, yay! It'll probably be about 300 billion a month. I'm guessing they can't borrow it all back at once without breaking the bond market.

It really annoys me to read articles by "experts" who say the debt ceiling is a bad thing because it causes a crisis every time we hit it. What they fail to realize is that those crisis are miniscule compared to the ultimate crisis that the debt ceiling is designed to prevent. The true debt crisis is when we have too much debt, not when we fail to increase it.

It's a crisis every time a junkie runs out of smack.

"The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

-Ludwig von Mises

"Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

-Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

"The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

I mean, isn't it effectively repealed already? Right now, it's just a little government-mandated song and dance every once and awhile.

Gotta love Trump - he's just telling the people what government is doing anyway! Making it plainly obvious! What a guy!

(seriously, though. removal of the debt ceiling, regardless of how pointless the "ceiling" is, will just allow the government to spend without anyone questioning. it may be the final nail to pop the bubble.)

"And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

Has Krugman written anything on this, or has he been continuously masturbating for the last 48 hours?

Originally Posted by Ron Paul

Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.

Do it. Really. I have become convinced that the only way change is gonna be affected is by government implosion.

Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

seriously, though. removal of the debt ceiling, regardless of how pointless the "ceiling" is, will just allow the government to spend without anyone questioning. it may be the final nail to pop the bubble.

Yup

Originally Posted by phill4paul

Do it. Really. I have become convinced that the only way change is gonna be affected is by government implosion.

Government implosion, yes...

Catastrophic debt and inflation and chaos always works out well.

Just ask the citizens of Wiemar.

Things can't get worse...

"The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

-Ludwig von Mises

"Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

-Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

"The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

I'm at the point where it is "$#@!, or get off the pot." I've been an agorist going on eight years now. I honestly don't give a $#@!. Better sooner than later.

Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

I'm at the point where it is "$#@!, or get off the pot." I've been an agorist going on eight years now. I honestly don't give a $#@!. Better sooner than later.

Well, I think you might have a slightly naive view of what could happen.

"The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

-Ludwig von Mises

"Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

-Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

"The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

Well, I think you might have a slightly naive view of what could happen.

na·ive
nīˈēv/Submit
adjective
(of a person or action) showing a lack of experience, wisdom, or judgment.

Nope. I know exactly. Sorry, you can't seem to grasp that.

Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

na·ive
nīˈēv/Submit
adjective
(of a person or action) showing a lack of experience, wisdom, or judgment.

Nope. I know exactly. Sorry, you can't seem to grasp that.

That's fine.

"The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

-Ludwig von Mises

"Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

-Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

"The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) was one of several Senate conservatives who said abandoning that power would be misguided. "I think the debt limit should be used to try to bring to reform in Congress," Paul said Thursday. "I think the debt limit is a good vote to have."

^^ Akin to giving away your ability to 'take your ball and go home'.

Do the laws of economics apply to monopoly? The US government's continued involvement domestically and foreign is important to many countries with their own central banks and with business who receive contracts with the US government. Letting us fall into despair would harm their own interests. In my mind the most likely pressure the government would receive from debt buyers would be pushing towards more centralized social services as a cost savings measure (government healthcare, food distribution, etc). How do these interested parties become 'victim' to the laws of economics/market forces?

Do the laws of economics apply to monopoly? The US government's continued involvement domestically and foreign is important to many countries with their own central banks and with business who receive contracts with the US government. Letting us fall into despair would harm their own interests. In my mind the most likely pressure the government would receive from debt buyers would be pushing towards more centralized social services as a cost savings measure (government healthcare, food distribution, etc). How do these interested parties become 'victim' to the laws of economics/market forces?

Economics allows us to determine which policy choices are sensible.

But the government in D.C. does not care...

Their only concern is reelection.

....

Originally Posted by Ludwig von Mises

in the short run an individual or a group of individuals can certainly further their own interests at the expense of their own and all other peoples' long-run interests. A society that is not prepared to thwart the attacks of such asocial and short-sighted aggressors is helpless

"The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

-Ludwig von Mises

"Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

-Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

"The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

I sort of wonder if this is why our country is so mentally ill, so many people live their lives doing whatever is most lucrative to them instead of what they like doing. I never noticed how its even engrained into our public sector. They are more motivated to maintain a paycheck then do their job right. It's something I just don't understand how people can let this $#@! show go on and our country crumble. They won't even budget the government so our economy is going to fail. I hope all of them get cancer, - spare Rand Paul and a few others but cancer for the rest of them.

But I'm saying though, is the idea that there is going to be a debt/currency crisis realistic? If money couldn't be debased then I would imagine that the laws of economics would apply, and poor policy would eventually lead to insolvency and the inability to continue to preform functions. It's accuracy I do not know, but I remember that the fed 'let' Lehman fail, not that they couldn't have overcome the market forces and saved it.

But I'm saying though, is the idea that there is going to be a debt/currency crisis realistic? If money couldn't be debased then I would imagine that the laws of economics would apply, and poor policy would eventually lead to insolvency and the inability to continue to preform functions. It's accuracy I do not know, but I remember that the fed 'let' Lehman fail, not that they couldn't have overcome the market forces and saved it.

I dunno, what makes our currency valuable and what could threaten it? All it needs its competition, and lots of people would leave it. Are you going to war over fiat currency, are you going to war for the empire? Probably. The crunch is coming, and the writing is on the wall, happy 9/11 yall.

I sort of wonder if this is why our country is so mentally ill, so many people live their lives doing whatever is most lucrative to them instead of what they like doing. I never noticed how its even engrained into our public sector. They are more motivated to maintain a paycheck then do their job right. It's something I just don't understand how people can let this $#@! show go on and our country crumble. They won't even budget the government so our economy is going to fail. I hope all of them get cancer, - spare Rand Paul and a few others but cancer for the rest of them.

Maybe letting our fate be determined by the majority isn't a good idea.

"The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

-Ludwig von Mises

"Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

-Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

"The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

The two party system creates a situation where there is no oxygen left in the room for anybody else while avoiding silly accusations of a monopoly. We can use those against North Korea.

The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

Do it. Really. I have become convinced that the only way change is gonna be affected is by government implosion.

This.

$#@! it it, why not, having a "ceiling" that isn't a ceiling is pointless anyway.

Everybody knows it's all smoke and mirrors and bull$#@!: deals will get cut, debt will be incurred, and the ever $#@!ed Mundanes that foot the bill for this $#@! show of cum drunk sluts will get another reaming.

But I'm saying though, is the idea that there is going to be a debt/currency crisis realistic? If money couldn't be debased then I would imagine that the laws of economics would apply, and poor policy would eventually lead to insolvency and the inability to continue to preform functions. It's accuracy I do not know, but I remember that the fed 'let' Lehman fail, not that they couldn't have overcome the market forces and saved it.

If present trends continue, the cost of servicing the debt will eventually exceed what the state can extract from society.

At that point the state will have to either retrench or collapse.

This is just a matter of math.

"The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

-Ludwig von Mises

"Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

-Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

"The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."