From Bogdan.Costescu at iwr.uni-heidelberg.de Mon Mar 2 05:08:41 2009
From: Bogdan.Costescu at iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Bogdan Costescu)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:08:41 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Beowulf] small distro for PXE boot, autostarts sshd?
In-Reply-To: <20090227110525.GD6210@sillage.bis.pasteur.fr>
References:
<20090226234606.GA11226@sillage.bis.pasteur.fr>
<20090227110525.GD6210@sillage.bis.pasteur.fr>
Message-ID:
On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, Tru Huynh wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:28:30AM +0100, Bogdan Costescu wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, Tru Huynh wrote:
>>
>>> I am using kickstart + CentOS-5 + %pre feature to download the
>>> required dropbear daemon + partprobe (parted/fdisk/sfdisk are
>>> included) + your nettee for a post kickstart cloning of a "gold"
>>> image.
>> I haven't seen kickstart being used this way so far...
> if it was done in the %post part of the kickstart, yes
>
> 1) first regular kickstart your "gold" image
> 2) start another kickstart and use only the %pre part
Ah, I've parsed 'post kickstart' to mean 'in the %post part of
kickstart'. Now it makes sense, thanks for the enlightment !
--
Bogdan Costescu
IWR, University of Heidelberg, INF 368, D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany
Phone: +49 6221 54 8240, Fax: +49 6221 54 8850
E-mail: bogdan.costescu at iwr.uni-heidelberg.de
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From kishandba at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 07:34:59 2009
From: kishandba at gmail.com (kishan gandhi)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 18:04:59 +0530
Subject: [Beowulf] channel bonding three lan cards (ether net cards)
Message-ID:
Hi,
how to configure
i have three lan cards
eth0 public ip
eth1 public ip
eth2 private ip
how to bond
can u salve the problem
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From hearnsj at googlemail.com Mon Mar 2 11:34:01 2009
From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 16:34:01 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] channel bonding three lan cards (ether net cards)
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <9f8092cc0903020834w13ff3058j3c8ce54a85bcc991@mail.gmail.com>
2009/3/2 kishan gandhi :
>
> Hi,
>
> how to configure
>
> i have three lan cards
>
> eth0 public ip
> eth1 public ip
> eth2 private ip
Kishan, please say if these are on separate physical networks.
It looks like the eth2 card is on a different physical network (read
'collision domain' or 'network segment').
In this cased you cannot bond it with the other cards.
For the other two cards, eth0 and eth1, can we ask what the purpose of
bonding would be - is it a failover to cope with the failure or one
interface?
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From raysonlogin at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 13:57:28 2009
From: raysonlogin at gmail.com (Rayson Ho)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 13:57:28 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] user stats on clusters
In-Reply-To: <49A85DF7.7090502@tamu.edu>
References: <49A85DF7.7090502@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <73a01bf20903021057x3e49ab3ax7f77f18c17f94f0a@mail.gmail.com>
SGE has the Accounting and Reporting Console module (aka ARCo). It
basically logs the job and host data from the qmaster+scheduler into
an SQL database (MySQL, Oracle, or PostgreSQL).
The pie charts are nice:
http://wikis.sun.com/display/GridEngine/Starting+the+Accounting+and+Reporting+Console
And, you can write your own SQL queries to get the data you want.
Homepage: http://arco.sunsource.net/
Rayson
On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Gerry Creager wrote:
> A general question: What're folks using for stats, including queue wait,
> execution times, hours/month? Any suggestions?
>
> gerry
> --
> Gerry Creager -- gerry.creager at tamu.edu
> Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University
> Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.862.3983
> Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843
> _______________________________________________
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> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
> http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
>
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From bill at cse.ucdavis.edu Tue Mar 3 17:01:06 2009
From: bill at cse.ucdavis.edu (Bill Broadley)
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 14:01:06 -0800
Subject: [Beowulf] Dual Nehalem announced.
In-Reply-To: <73a01bf20903021057x3e49ab3ax7f77f18c17f94f0a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49A85DF7.7090502@tamu.edu>
<73a01bf20903021057x3e49ab3ax7f77f18c17f94f0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49ADA8A2.9030200@cse.ucdavis.edu>
I noticed that apple's selling single/dual nehalems, claim to ship within 4
days. They offer 2.26, 2.66, and 2.93 GHz duals. Hopefully that triggers the
NDAs to evaporate.
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From kilian.cavalotti.work at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 18:50:48 2009
From: kilian.cavalotti.work at gmail.com (Kilian CAVALOTTI)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 00:50:48 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] user stats on clusters
In-Reply-To: <49A85DF7.7090502@tamu.edu>
References: <49A85DF7.7090502@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <200903040050.49150.kilian.cavalotti.work@gmail.com>
Hi Gerry,
On Friday 27 February 2009 22:41:11 Gerry Creager wrote:
> A general question: What're folks using for stats, including queue wait,
> execution times, hours/month? Any suggestions?
We use LSF reporting tools, which are a bit raw, but do their job just fine.
For the users and PIs, I wrote web wrapper to present usage statistics and
usage reports (for billing purposes) in a more user-friendly manner. Most
features are decribed here : https://biox2.stanford.edu/doc/wiki/WebProfile
Due to the specificity of the environment and of our requirements, I never
bothered making this tool usable outside of our cluster, but that's probably
something which can be done in a reasonnable amount of time.
Other than that, Platform has a nice monitoring tool for clusters using LSF,
which is scheduler-centric, and based on the open-source Cacti. It's called
RTM, and is really helpful for both admins and users. See
http://www.platform.com/Products/platform-rtm
Cheers,
--
Kilian
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From thakur at mcs.anl.gov Wed Mar 4 13:23:16 2009
From: thakur at mcs.anl.gov (Rajeev Thakur)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 12:23:16 -0600
Subject: [Beowulf] SC09: Call for tutorial proposals
Message-ID: <402E92EFEE554F45A510C43F65D1343C@mcs.anl.gov>
Call for SC09 Tutorial Proposals
Experts in high performance computing are invited to share their expertise
with the High Performance Computing (HPC) community by submitting proposals
for tutorials at the SC09 conference to be held in Portland, Oregon,
November 14-20, 2009.The SC09 Tutorials program will give attendees the
opportunity to explore a wide variety of important topics related to
high-performance computing, networking, and storage. SC09 invites proposals
for introductory, intermediate, and advanced tutorials, either full-day (six
hours) or half-day (three hours). A distinguished panel of experts will
select the tutorials from the submitted proposals. Submissions for tutorials
and other aspects of the SC09 Technical Program open Monday, March 16, 2009.
The deadline for submission is April 6, 2009.
Detailed submission information:
http://sc09.supercomputing.org/?pg=tutorials.html
Questions: tutorials at info.supercomputing.org
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From forum.san at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 03:57:29 2009
From: forum.san at gmail.com (Sangamesh B)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 03:57:29 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] Grid scheduler for Windows XP
In-Reply-To: <1236241716.16016.2.camel@desktop>
References:
<1236241716.16016.2.camel@desktop>
Message-ID:
Thanks Huw for your suggestion.
By batch jobs did you mean only serial jobs?
Is anybody successful running SGE on cygwin like environment on
Windows machines? (Both master & execution hosts)
Thanks,
Sangamesh
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 3:28 AM, Huw Lynes wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-03-05 at 01:29 -0500, Sangamesh B wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> Is there a Grid scheduler (only open source, like SGE) tool which
>> can be installed/run on Windows XP Desktop systems (there is no Linux
>> involvement strictly).
>>
>> The applications used under this grid are Native to Windows XP.
>
> Condor would be my first thought.
> http://www.cs.wisc.edu/condor/
>
> We use it to run batch jobs across our Windows XP desktops. We run the
> central manager on a linux box, but you can use Windows for that as
> well.
>
> Cheers,
> Huw
>
> --
> Huw Lynes | Advanced Research Computing
> HEC Sysadmin | Cardiff University
> | Redwood Building,
> Tel: +44 (0) 29208 70626 | King Edward VII Avenue, CF10 3NB
>
>
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From forum.san at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 01:29:09 2009
From: forum.san at gmail.com (Sangamesh B)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 01:29:09 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] Grid scheduler for Windows XP
Message-ID:
Hello everyone,
Is there a Grid scheduler (only open source, like SGE) tool which
can be installed/run on Windows XP Desktop systems (there is no Linux
involvement strictly).
The applications used under this grid are Native to Windows XP.
Thanks,
Sangamesh
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From hearnsj at googlemail.com Thu Mar 5 04:24:36 2009
From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 09:24:36 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] channel bonding three lan cards (ether net cards)
In-Reply-To:
References:
<9f8092cc0903020834w13ff3058j3c8ce54a85bcc991@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f8092cc0903050124t59ce6952vba8f575215dbc79e@mail.gmail.com>
2009/3/5 kishan gandhi :
> Hi,
>
> exactly failover purpose
>
> if?in any case one public ip fail that time?it will up second public ip up
> that why i am?asking
Kishan,
it is not clear what you are trying to achieve.
Do you have:
a) two ethernet cards, two cables, these cables attached to either one
ethernet switch or two ethernet switches
one IP address for this server - ie. you would like the second
ethernet card to come up if the primary link fails
Bonding can do this.
b) two IP Addresses for this server
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From lynesh at cardiff.ac.uk Thu Mar 5 03:28:36 2009
From: lynesh at cardiff.ac.uk (Huw Lynes)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 08:28:36 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] Grid scheduler for Windows XP
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <1236241716.16016.2.camel@desktop>
On Thu, 2009-03-05 at 01:29 -0500, Sangamesh B wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> Is there a Grid scheduler (only open source, like SGE) tool which
> can be installed/run on Windows XP Desktop systems (there is no Linux
> involvement strictly).
>
> The applications used under this grid are Native to Windows XP.
Condor would be my first thought.
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/condor/
We use it to run batch jobs across our Windows XP desktops. We run the
central manager on a linux box, but you can use Windows for that as
well.
Cheers,
Huw
--
Huw Lynes | Advanced Research Computing
HEC Sysadmin | Cardiff University
| Redwood Building,
Tel: +44 (0) 29208 70626 | King Edward VII Avenue, CF10 3NB
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From hunting at ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 5 03:24:03 2009
From: hunting at ix.netcom.com (Michael Huntingdon)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:24:03 -0800
Subject: [Beowulf] Dual Nehalem announced.
In-Reply-To: <49ADA8A2.9030200@cse.ucdavis.edu>
References: <49A85DF7.7090502@tamu.edu><73a01bf20903021057x3e49ab3ax7f77f18c17f94f0a@mail.gmail.com>
<49ADA8A2.9030200@cse.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <9F1244F4B74B49C38122B0FE2E5E675F@MichaelPC>
Bill
I'm told the availability of systems within 4 days can't be accurate at this
point. Any product available now is a prerelease and not a final as Intel
has not released the volume chips yet.
Michael A. Huntingdon
Higher Education Sales Account Manager
Systems Performance Consultants
Office (408) 294-6811
Cell (408) 531-7422
Fax (601) 510-3808
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Broadley"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 2:01 PM
Subject: [Beowulf] Dual Nehalem announced.
>
> I noticed that apple's selling single/dual nehalems, claim to ship within
> 4
> days. They offer 2.26, 2.66, and 2.93 GHz duals. Hopefully that triggers
> the
> NDAs to evaporate.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
> http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
>
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From lynesh at cardiff.ac.uk Thu Mar 5 07:02:54 2009
From: lynesh at cardiff.ac.uk (Huw Lynes)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:02:54 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] Grid scheduler for Windows XP
In-Reply-To:
References:
<1236241716.16016.2.camel@desktop>
Message-ID: <1236254574.2806.78.camel@w609.insrv.cf.ac.uk>
On Thu, 2009-03-05 at 03:57 -0500, Sangamesh B wrote:
> Thanks Huw for your suggestion.
>
> By batch jobs did you mean only serial jobs?
>
We only run serial jobs under condor because most of the desktops are
single-core and are only connected with 10 or 100base ethernet. So
running parallel jobs wouldn't make any sense for us.
Thanks,
Huw
--
Huw Lynes | Advanced Research Computing
HEC Sysadmin | Cardiff University
| Redwood Building,
Tel: +44 (0) 29208 70626 | King Edward VII Avenue, CF10 3NB
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From kus at free.net Thu Mar 5 12:04:25 2009
From: kus at free.net (Mikhail Kuzminsky)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 20:04:25 +0300
Subject: [Beowulf] Grid scheduler for Windows XP
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
In message from Sangamesh B (Thu, 5 Mar 2009
01:29:09 -0500):
>Hello everyone,
>
> Is there a Grid scheduler (only open source, like SGE) tool which
>can be installed/run on Windows XP Desktop systems (there is no Linux
>involvement strictly).
>
>The applications used under this grid are Native to Windows XP.
GRAM component of Globus Toolkit (http://www.globus.org/) give you
some possibilities of batch queue system, and there is SGE interfaces
to Globus.
Mikhail Kuzminsky
Computer Assistance to Chemical Research Center
Zelinsky Institute of Organic Chemistry RAS
Moscow
>
>Thanks,
>Sangamesh
>_______________________________________________
>Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
>To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
>http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
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>--
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>
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From coutinho at dcc.ufmg.br Thu Mar 5 12:05:26 2009
From: coutinho at dcc.ufmg.br (Bruno Coutinho)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 14:05:26 -0300
Subject: [Beowulf] Dual Nehalem announced.
In-Reply-To: <9F1244F4B74B49C38122B0FE2E5E675F@MichaelPC>
References: <49A85DF7.7090502@tamu.edu>
<73a01bf20903021057x3e49ab3ax7f77f18c17f94f0a@mail.gmail.com>
<49ADA8A2.9030200@cse.ucdavis.edu>
<9F1244F4B74B49C38122B0FE2E5E675F@MichaelPC>
Message-ID:
2009/3/5 Michael Huntingdon
> Bill
> I'm told the availability of systems within 4 days can't be accurate at
> this point. Any product available now is a prerelease and not a final as
> Intel has not released the volume chips yet.
When is the official release?
I heard that is March 28 ...
>
>
> Michael A. Huntingdon
> Higher Education Sales Account Manager
> Systems Performance Consultants
> Office (408) 294-6811
> Cell (408) 531-7422
> Fax (601) 510-3808
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Broadley"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 2:01 PM
> Subject: [Beowulf] Dual Nehalem announced.
>
>
>
>> I noticed that apple's selling single/dual nehalems, claim to ship within
>> 4
>> days. They offer 2.26, 2.66, and 2.93 GHz duals. Hopefully that triggers
>> the
>> NDAs to evaporate.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
>> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
>> http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
> http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
>
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From gerry.creager at tamu.edu Thu Mar 5 13:55:59 2009
From: gerry.creager at tamu.edu (Gerry Creager)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:55:59 -0600
Subject: [Beowulf] switch selection
Message-ID: <49B0203F.3030808@tamu.edu>
I recall a couple of recent arguments, so I'm wondering if someone could
summarize the discussion on gigabit switches for HPC/clusters.
1. If memory serves, NetGear wasn't a great choice?
2. HP Procurve got some good reviews.
I've been asked for an opinion by some folks building a small, dedicated
cluster. I'd told them of my misgivings on NetGear, and now I've gotta
give a recommendation.
I am asking for the collective wisdom. That said, I'll comment that
I've been happy with out Procurve 5012zl but it's a bit larger than they
need or would grow into.
thanks, Gerry
--
Gerry Creager -- gerry.creager at tamu.edu
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843
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From landman at scalableinformatics.com Thu Mar 5 14:17:55 2009
From: landman at scalableinformatics.com (Joe Landman)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 14:17:55 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] switch selection
In-Reply-To: <49B0203F.3030808@tamu.edu>
References: <49B0203F.3030808@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <49B02563.5090705@scalableinformatics.com>
Gerry Creager wrote:
> I recall a couple of recent arguments, so I'm wondering if someone could
> summarize the discussion on gigabit switches for HPC/clusters.
>
> 1. If memory serves, NetGear wasn't a great choice?
> 2. HP Procurve got some good reviews.
>
> I've been asked for an opinion by some folks building a small, dedicated
> cluster. I'd told them of my misgivings on NetGear, and now I've gotta
> give a recommendation.
How large and what traffic over it?
>
> I am asking for the collective wisdom. That said, I'll comment that
> I've been happy with out Procurve 5012zl but it's a bit larger than they
> need or would grow into.
>
> thanks, Gerry
--
Joseph Landman, Ph.D
Founder and CEO
Scalable Informatics LLC,
email: landman at scalableinformatics.com
web : http://www.scalableinformatics.com
http://jackrabbit.scalableinformatics.com
phone: +1 734 786 8423 x121
fax : +1 866 888 3112
cell : +1 734 612 4615
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From jlforrest at berkeley.edu Thu Mar 5 14:20:13 2009
From: jlforrest at berkeley.edu (Jon Forrest)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 11:20:13 -0800
Subject: [Beowulf] switch selection
In-Reply-To: <49B0203F.3030808@tamu.edu>
References: <49B0203F.3030808@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <49B025ED.8080505@berkeley.edu>
Gerry Creager wrote:
> I recall a couple of recent arguments, so I'm wondering if someone could
> summarize the discussion on gigabit switches for HPC/clusters.
>
> 1. If memory serves, NetGear wasn't a great choice?
> 2. HP Procurve got some good reviews.
>
> I've been asked for an opinion by some folks building a small, dedicated
> cluster. I'd told them of my misgivings on NetGear, and now I've gotta
> give a recommendation.
I've been using NetGear with OK results, although I have to admit
that we're not super critical about switches.
My primary suggest would be to not pay too much attention to
the subjective reviews you'll see here, including mine. Instead,
I'd suggest finding and understanding a switch benchmark program
that gives a more objective evaluation.
Cordially,
--
Jon Forrest
Research Computing Support
College of Chemistry
173 Tan Hall
University of California Berkeley
Berkeley, CA
94720-1460
510-643-1032
jlforrest at berkeley.edu
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From gerry.creager at tamu.edu Thu Mar 5 14:36:21 2009
From: gerry.creager at tamu.edu (Gerry Creager)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 13:36:21 -0600
Subject: [Beowulf] switch selection
In-Reply-To: <49B02563.5090705@scalableinformatics.com>
References: <49B0203F.3030808@tamu.edu>
<49B02563.5090705@scalableinformatics.com>
Message-ID: <49B029B5.4040408@tamu.edu>
Joe Landman wrote:
> Gerry Creager wrote:
>> I recall a couple of recent arguments, so I'm wondering if someone
>> could summarize the discussion on gigabit switches for HPC/clusters.
>>
>> 1. If memory serves, NetGear wasn't a great choice?
>> 2. HP Procurve got some good reviews.
>>
>> I've been asked for an opinion by some folks building a small,
>> dedicated cluster. I'd told them of my misgivings on NetGear, and now
>> I've gotta give a recommendation.
>
> How large and what traffic over it?
<= 24 nodes, with gigabit as the primary interconnect. MPI for data
assimilation on custom weather codes.
>> I am asking for the collective wisdom. That said, I'll comment that
>> I've been happy with out Procurve 5012zl but it's a bit larger than
>> they need or would grow into.
>>
>> thanks, Gerry
>
>
--
Gerry Creager -- gerry.creager at tamu.edu
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843
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From landman at scalableinformatics.com Thu Mar 5 14:38:58 2009
From: landman at scalableinformatics.com (Joe Landman)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 14:38:58 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] switch selection
In-Reply-To: <49B029B5.4040408@tamu.edu>
References: <49B0203F.3030808@tamu.edu>
<49B02563.5090705@scalableinformatics.com>
<49B029B5.4040408@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <49B02A52.7040608@scalableinformatics.com>
Gerry Creager wrote:
> Joe Landman wrote:
>> Gerry Creager wrote:
>>> I recall a couple of recent arguments, so I'm wondering if someone
>>> could summarize the discussion on gigabit switches for HPC/clusters.
>>>
>>> 1. If memory serves, NetGear wasn't a great choice?
>>> 2. HP Procurve got some good reviews.
>>>
>>> I've been asked for an opinion by some folks building a small,
>>> dedicated cluster. I'd told them of my misgivings on NetGear, and
>>> now I've gotta give a recommendation.
>>
>> How large and what traffic over it?
>
> <= 24 nodes, with gigabit as the primary interconnect. MPI for data
> assimilation on custom weather codes.
It would be hard to beat the Procurve 2900-24G or 2824 units for
performance. We have had customers slot them in after other
(disastrous) switch choices. Often times we hear "faster", "NFS doesn't
die", "PXE/bootp finally works", and other nice things like that.
They will cost you more, but we haven't seen an unhappy cluster customer
using them yet.
Joe
--
Joseph Landman, Ph.D
Founder and CEO
Scalable Informatics LLC,
email: landman at scalableinformatics.com
web : http://www.scalableinformatics.com
http://jackrabbit.scalableinformatics.com
phone: +1 734 786 8423 x121
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From gerry.creager at tamu.edu Thu Mar 5 15:33:11 2009
From: gerry.creager at tamu.edu (Gerry Creager)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 14:33:11 -0600
Subject: [Beowulf] Dual Nehalem announced.
In-Reply-To:
References: <49A85DF7.7090502@tamu.edu> <73a01bf20903021057x3e49ab3ax7f77f18c17f94f0a@mail.gmail.com> <49ADA8A2.9030200@cse.ucdavis.edu> <9F1244F4B74B49C38122B0FE2E5E675F@MichaelPC>
Message-ID: <49B03707.3010105@tamu.edu>
I've heard 30 MAR
Bruno Coutinho wrote:
>
>
> 2009/3/5 Michael Huntingdon >
>
> Bill
> I'm told the availability of systems within 4 days can't be accurate
> at this point. Any product available now is a prerelease and not a
> final as Intel has not released the volume chips yet.
>
>
> When is the official release?
> I heard that is March 28 ...
>
>
>
>
> Michael A. Huntingdon
> Higher Education Sales Account Manager
> Systems Performance Consultants
> Office (408) 294-6811
> Cell (408) 531-7422
> Fax (601) 510-3808
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Broadley"
> >
> To: >
> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 2:01 PM
> Subject: [Beowulf] Dual Nehalem announced.
>
>
>
> I noticed that apple's selling single/dual nehalems, claim to
> ship within 4
> days. They offer 2.26, 2.66, and 2.93 GHz duals. Hopefully
> that triggers the
> NDAs to evaporate.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
>
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
> http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
> http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
--
Gerry Creager -- gerry.creager at tamu.edu
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843
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From forum.san at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 02:41:42 2009
From: forum.san at gmail.com (Sangamesh B)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 13:11:42 +0530
Subject: [Beowulf] Grid scheduler for Windows XP
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
Thanks everyone for your suggestions.
Globus has interface to SGE. But SGE can't be deployed completely on
Windows. Right?
regards,
Sangamesh
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Mikhail Kuzminsky wrote:
> In message from Sangamesh B (Thu, 5 Mar 2009 01:29:09
> -0500):
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> ?Is there a Grid scheduler (only open source, like SGE) tool which
>> can be installed/run on Windows XP Desktop systems (there is no Linux
>> involvement strictly).
>>
>> The applications used under this grid are Native to Windows XP.
>
> GRAM component of Globus Toolkit (http://www.globus.org/) give you some
> possibilities of batch queue system, and there is SGE interfaces to Globus.
> Mikhail Kuzminsky
> Computer Assistance to Chemical Research Center
> Zelinsky Institute of Organic Chemistry RAS
> Moscow
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Sangamesh
>> _______________________________________________
>> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
>> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
>> http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
>>
>> --
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>>
>
>
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From chichan2008 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 11:52:22 2009
From: chichan2008 at gmail.com (Chi Chan)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:52:22 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] Grid Engine training courses?
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
Anyone has experiences with Grid Engine/SGE training? I have the
following questions:
1. How good are the SGE training courses? Did anyone attend any of the
courses before:
http://blogs.sun.com/HPC/entry/workshop_migrating_from_lsf_to
http://gridengine.sunsource.net/ds/viewMessage.do?dsForumId=38&dsMessageId=109060
2. Do they run the SGE cluster in Virtual Machines?
3. How big is each class?
4. How related are those courses for a Rocks cluster user and admin?
TIA :-)
--Chi
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From sabujp at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 21:11:54 2009
From: sabujp at gmail.com (Sabuj Pattanayek)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:11:54 -0600
Subject: [Beowulf] Dual Nehalem announced.
In-Reply-To: <49ADA8A2.9030200@cse.ucdavis.edu>
References: <49A85DF7.7090502@tamu.edu>
<73a01bf20903021057x3e49ab3ax7f77f18c17f94f0a@mail.gmail.com>
<49ADA8A2.9030200@cse.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID:
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Bill Broadley wrote:
>
> I noticed that apple's selling single/dual nehalems, claim to ship within 4
> days. ?They offer 2.26, 2.66, and 2.93 GHz duals. ?Hopefully that triggers the
> NDAs to evaporate.
_______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
Argh it's not an xserve yet, just a mac pro
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_pro
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From matt at technoronin.com Thu Mar 5 14:34:15 2009
From: matt at technoronin.com (Matt Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 13:34:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Beowulf] switch selection
In-Reply-To: <49B0203F.3030808@tamu.edu>
References: <49B0203F.3030808@tamu.edu>
Message-ID:
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009, Gerry Creager wrote:
> I recall a couple of recent arguments, so I'm wondering if someone could
> summarize the discussion on gigabit switches for HPC/clusters.
>
> 1. If memory serves, NetGear wasn't a great choice?
> 2. HP Procurve got some good reviews.
>
> I've been asked for an opinion by some folks building a small, dedicated
> cluster. I'd told them of my misgivings on NetGear, and now I've gotta give
> a recommendation.
>
> I am asking for the collective wisdom. That said, I'll comment that I've
> been happy with out Procurve 5012zl but it's a bit larger than they need or
> would grow into.
The Linksys 48 port managed switches seem to be very unreliable. I
recommend avoiding them.
-- Matt
It's not what I know that counts.
It's what I can remember in time to use.
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From hearnsj at googlemail.com Fri Mar 6 10:06:04 2009
From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 15:06:04 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] Beowulf on head Core2Duo/8RAM/8800GTX(4 CUDA) + 2 nodes
- SonyPS3 + AlliedTelesyn GLAN Switch running "home-made CFD-program
In-Reply-To: <98861235872102@webmail23.yandex.ru>
References: <98861235872102@webmail23.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <9f8092cc0903060706g332e1f17l5f0f157e3b29f8e3@mail.gmail.com>
2009/3/1 ???????? ??????? :
> I have such a configuration and now I'm interested, where can I obtain Beowulf & PVM, in "Operating systems. Internals and Design Principles. 4-th Ed." by W.Stollings, said that i can obtain Beowulf from www.beowulf.org. But I cann't find the path to download. The same is with PVM. By the way, what OS should i use: Fedora-based Yellow Dog Linux and Fedora for Head; NetBSD everywhere or something else? I am new in Linux, this cluster is intended for my scientific activity to make a work, that would make possible to me to became Ph.D. in heat-transfer coupled with hydrodynamics.
> Sincerely yours, Dmitry Zaletnev.
Dmitry, there is really no such thing as 'Beowulf'
It is a combination of using a parallel library - such as PVM or MPI
with commodity hardware.
That looks like a really, really interesting setup!
My advice to you - download OpenSUSE 11.1 for your head node, and
download the CUDA development kit from
http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_home.html
That should give you plenty of CPU power with 4 CUDA cards.
And please let us know how you progress - I'm very interested in
running CFD codes on CUDA. (Hint - I look after CFD machines)
Sorry I cannot help with the preferred way to run Sony PS3s.
However, I think you should concentrate on the mix of x86_64 and CUDA
- as I Say you have lots of potential there.
John Hearns
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From gus at ldeo.columbia.edu Fri Mar 6 11:04:36 2009
From: gus at ldeo.columbia.edu (Gus Correa)
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 11:04:36 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] Beowulf on head Core2Duo/8RAM/8800GTX(4 CUDA) + 2 nodes
- SonyPS3 + AlliedTelesyn GLAN Switch running "home-made CFD-program
In-Reply-To: <98861235872102@webmail23.yandex.ru>
References: <98861235872102@webmail23.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <49B14994.30608@ldeo.columbia.edu>
Hello Dmitry, list
Can you explain your hardware configuration a little better, please?
It came only on the message subject.
Too telegraphic for an explanation.
Way too long for a message subject title.
I copied it to the body of the message below.
1) Are your two nodes Core2Duo like the head node?
2) Are they two Sony PlayStation-3 boxes?
3) Or are they something else?
4) Do you have Nvidia 8800 GTX only on the head node or also on
the two (compute) nodes (if they are not PS3)?
5) Do you plan to use CUDA for CFD parallel processing along with PVM?
I don't think there is any downloadable setup for clusters in
the Beowulf site.
There is great information,
but not a full OS plus clustering software.
However, you can find a full cluster setup in Rocks Clusters,
which is free and easy to install:
http://www.rocksclusters.org/wordpress/
Nevertheless, it won't work with PlayStation, Fedora,
or FreeBSD, I guess (they use CentOS, RHEL or Scientific Linux).
MPI superseded PVM a while ago.
These are the two main open source versions of MPI:
http://www.open-mpi.org/
http://www.mcs.anl.gov/research/projects/mpich2/
The old PVM is available here:
http://www.csm.ornl.gov/pvm/
I hope this helps.
Gus Correa
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gustavo Correa
Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory - Columbia University
Palisades, NY, 10964-8000 - USA
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dmitry Zaletnev wrote:
> Subject:
>
> Beowulf on head Core2Duo/8RAM/8800GTX(4 CUDA) +
> 2 nodes - SonyPS3 +
> AlliedTelesyn GLAN Switch running
> "home-made CFD-program".
>
> Message:
>
> I have such a configuration and now I'm interested,
> where can I obtain Beowulf & PVM, in "Operating systems.
> Internals and Design Principles. 4-th Ed." by W.Stollings,
> said that i can obtain Beowulf from www.beowulf.org.
> But I cann't find the path to download.
> The same is with PVM.
> By the way, what OS should i use:
> Fedora-based Yellow Dog Linux and Fedora for Head;
> NetBSD everywhere or something else?
> I am new in Linux, this cluster is intended
> for my scientific activity to make a work,
> that would make possible to me to became Ph.D.
> in heat-transfer coupled with hydrodynamics.
> Sincerely yours, Dmitry Zaletnev.
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
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From niftyompi at niftyegg.com Fri Mar 6 14:39:07 2009
From: niftyompi at niftyegg.com (Nifty Tom Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 11:39:07 -0800
Subject: [Beowulf] Beowulf on head Core2Duo/8RAM/8800GTX(4 CUDA) + 2
nodes - SonyPS3 + AlliedTelesyn GLAN Switch running "home-made
CFD-program
In-Reply-To: <98861235872102@webmail23.yandex.ru>
References: <98861235872102@webmail23.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <20090306193907.GA2961@tosh2egg.wr.niftyegg.com>
On Sun, Mar 01, 2009 at 04:48:22AM +0300, ???????? ??????? wrote:
>
> I have such a configuration and now I'm interested, where can I obtain Beowulf & PVM, in "Operating systems. Internals and Design Principles. 4-th Ed." by W.Stollings, said that i can obtain Beowulf from www.beowulf.org. But I cann't find the path to download. The same is with PVM. By the way, what OS should i use: Fedora-based Yellow Dog Linux and Fedora for Head; NetBSD everywhere or something else? I am new in Linux, this cluster is intended for my scientific activity to make a work, that would make possible to me to became Ph.D. in heat-transfer coupled with hydrodynamics.
> Sincerely yours, Dmitry Zaletnev.
PVM..
http://www.csm.ornl.gov/pvm/
Also look at MPI, http://www.open-mpi.org/
As an aside, PVM (Parallel Virtual Machine) and MPI (Message Passing Interface) have
become the standard interfaces for high-performance parallel programming
in the message-passing paradigm. I mention this because I have a bias toward MPI. One nice
thing about Open MPI is the range of hardware and batch system integrations.
Also MPI may be the best place to develop new parallel code, it appears to me that
new application code design work is happening in the MPI world. Perhaps more important
is the integration and development of drivers for fast interconnects.
As for OS use Redhat Enterprise linux or one of the derrived "free" clones
like CentOS or Scientific Linux will take you a long way. Use the same
OS on all your systems..
CentOS -- http://www.centos.org/
Scientific Linux -- https://www.scientificlinux.org/
--
T o m M i t c h e l l
Found me a new hat, now what?
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From raysonlogin at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 14:59:01 2009
From: raysonlogin at gmail.com (Rayson Ho)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 14:59:01 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] Grid Engine training courses?
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <73a01bf20903061159y6377edend16a7bad98fc491a@mail.gmail.com>
(Warning: Except the free SGE web training on the sun website, I have
never taken any extra SGE training courses)
The feedback on the Grid Engine mailing list about an earlier version
of the SGE training course are positive. You can download the course
materials from:
https://www.middleware.georgetown.edu/confluence/display/HPCT/Advanced+Sun+Grid+Engine+Configuration+and+Administration
It covers from basic SGE configuration to advanced scheduling
algorithms (fair share, share tree), and then to the accounting
console (ARCo).
Rayson
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Chi Chan wrote:
> Anyone has experiences with Grid Engine/SGE training? I have the
> following questions:
>
> 1. How good are the SGE training courses? Did anyone attend any of the
> courses before:
>
> http://blogs.sun.com/HPC/entry/workshop_migrating_from_lsf_to
> http://gridengine.sunsource.net/ds/viewMessage.do?dsForumId=38&dsMessageId=109060
>
> 2. Do they run the SGE cluster in Virtual Machines?
>
> 3. How big is each class?
>
> 4. How related are those courses for a Rocks cluster user and admin?
>
> TIA :-)
>
> --Chi
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
>
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From herborn at usna.edu Fri Mar 6 15:41:54 2009
From: herborn at usna.edu (Steve Herborn)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 15:41:54 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] Beowulf on head Core2Duo/8RAM/8800GTX(4 CUDA) + 2 nodes
-SonyPS3 + AlliedTelesyn GLAN Switch running "home-made CFD-program
In-Reply-To: <98861235872102@webmail23.yandex.ru>
References: <98861235872102@webmail23.yandex.ru>
Message-ID:
If you are starting from scratch with only hardware and little to no
previous experience you might want to read this article ==>
http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7239
According to the author he built a functional Caos NSA/Perceus cluster in 23
minutes which included building the master node, downloading the capsules,
and booting the first compute node.
Steven A. Herborn
U.S. Naval Academy
Advanced Research Computing
410-293-6480 (Desk)
757-418-0505 (Cell)
-----Original Message-----
From: beowulf-bounces at beowulf.org [mailto:beowulf-bounces at beowulf.org] On
Behalf Of ???????? ???????
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 8:48 PM
To: beowulf at beowulf.org
Subject: [Beowulf] Beowulf on head Core2Duo/8RAM/8800GTX(4 CUDA) + 2 nodes
-SonyPS3 + AlliedTelesyn GLAN Switch running "home-made CFD-program
I have such a configuration and now I'm interested, where can I obtain
Beowulf & PVM, in "Operating systems. Internals and Design Principles. 4-th
Ed." by W.Stollings, said that i can obtain Beowulf from www.beowulf.org.
But I cann't find the path to download. The same is with PVM. By the way,
what OS should i use: Fedora-based Yellow Dog Linux and Fedora for Head;
NetBSD everywhere or something else? I am new in Linux, this cluster is
intended for my scientific activity to make a work, that would make possible
to me to became Ph.D. in heat-transfer coupled with hydrodynamics.
Sincerely yours, Dmitry Zaletnev.
_______________________________________________
Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org To change your subscription
(digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
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From gus at ldeo.columbia.edu Fri Mar 6 17:20:08 2009
From: gus at ldeo.columbia.edu (Gus Correa)
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 17:20:08 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] Beowulf on head Core2Duo/8RAM/8800GTX(4 CUDA) + 2 nodes
- SonyPS3 + AlliedTelesyn GLAN Switch running "home-made CFD-program
In-Reply-To: <49B14994.30608@ldeo.columbia.edu>
References: <98861235872102@webmail23.yandex.ru>
<49B14994.30608@ldeo.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <49B1A198.8080002@ldeo.columbia.edu>
PS -
Dmitry:
ClusterMonkey is another excellent site where you can
get information about clusters:
http://www.clustermonkey.net/
Gus Correa
Gus Correa wrote:
> Hello Dmitry, list
>
> Can you explain your hardware configuration a little better, please?
> It came only on the message subject.
> Too telegraphic for an explanation.
> Way too long for a message subject title.
> I copied it to the body of the message below.
>
> 1) Are your two nodes Core2Duo like the head node?
> 2) Are they two Sony PlayStation-3 boxes?
> 3) Or are they something else?
> 4) Do you have Nvidia 8800 GTX only on the head node or also on
> the two (compute) nodes (if they are not PS3)?
> 5) Do you plan to use CUDA for CFD parallel processing along with PVM?
>
>
> I don't think there is any downloadable setup for clusters in
> the Beowulf site.
> There is great information,
> but not a full OS plus clustering software.
>
> However, you can find a full cluster setup in Rocks Clusters,
> which is free and easy to install:
>
> http://www.rocksclusters.org/wordpress/
>
> Nevertheless, it won't work with PlayStation, Fedora,
> or FreeBSD, I guess (they use CentOS, RHEL or Scientific Linux).
>
> MPI superseded PVM a while ago.
> These are the two main open source versions of MPI:
>
> http://www.open-mpi.org/
> http://www.mcs.anl.gov/research/projects/mpich2/
>
> The old PVM is available here:
>
> http://www.csm.ornl.gov/pvm/
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Gus Correa
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gustavo Correa
> Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory - Columbia University
> Palisades, NY, 10964-8000 - USA
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dmitry Zaletnev wrote:
>
> > Subject:
> >
> > Beowulf on head Core2Duo/8RAM/8800GTX(4 CUDA) +
> > 2 nodes - SonyPS3 +
> > AlliedTelesyn GLAN Switch running
> > "home-made CFD-program".
> >
> > Message:
> >
> > I have such a configuration and now I'm interested,
> > where can I obtain Beowulf & PVM, in "Operating systems.
> > Internals and Design Principles. 4-th Ed." by W.Stollings,
> > said that i can obtain Beowulf from www.beowulf.org.
> > But I cann't find the path to download.
> > The same is with PVM.
> > By the way, what OS should i use:
> > Fedora-based Yellow Dog Linux and Fedora for Head;
> > NetBSD everywhere or something else?
> > I am new in Linux, this cluster is intended
> > for my scientific activity to make a work,
> > that would make possible to me to became Ph.D.
> > in heat-transfer coupled with hydrodynamics.
> > Sincerely yours, Dmitry Zaletnev.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> > To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
> http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
> _______________________________________________
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From reuti at staff.uni-marburg.de Fri Mar 6 18:01:14 2009
From: reuti at staff.uni-marburg.de (Reuti)
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 00:01:14 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] Grid scheduler for Windows XP
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <6ED4CB95-75EC-40D4-99BA-9F23D9F09812@staff.uni-marburg.de>
Hi,
Am 05.03.2009 um 07:29 schrieb Sangamesh B:
> Hello everyone,
>
> Is there a Grid scheduler (only open source, like SGE) tool which
> can be installed/run on Windows XP Desktop systems (there is no Linux
> involvement strictly).
>
> The applications used under this grid are Native to Windows XP.
I came across this:
http://jobscheduler.sourceforge.net/
I don't know, how it will operate in a cluster though, but maybe it's
worth to be checked.
-- Reuti
> Thanks,
> Sangamesh
> _______________________________________________
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> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
> http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
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From hahn at mcmaster.ca Fri Mar 6 18:45:44 2009
From: hahn at mcmaster.ca (Mark Hahn)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 18:45:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Beowulf] Beowulf on head Core2Duo/8RAM/8800GTX(4 CUDA) + 2
nodes - SonyPS3 + AlliedTelesyn GLAN Switch running "home-made
CFD-program
In-Reply-To: <98861235872102@webmail23.yandex.ru>
References: <98861235872102@webmail23.yandex.ru>
Message-ID:
> I have such a configuration and now I'm interested, where can I obtain
> Beowulf & PVM, in "Operating systems. Internals and Design Principles. 4-th
why PVM? it's a fine system, but MPI has, practically speaking, obsoleted it.
> Ed." by W.Stollings, said that i can obtain Beowulf from
> www.beowulf.org.
beowulf is not really a singular thing, but a concept. there are many
instances which are downloadable and relatively turnkey if you're not
very picky. Oscar, Rocks, Perceus/Warewulf, etc.
> But I cann't find the path to download. The same is with
> PVM. By the way, what OS should i use: Fedora-based Yellow Dog Linux and
> Fedora for Head; NetBSD everywhere or something else? I am new in Linux,
you should DEFINITELY use the same OS on all nodes. mixing OSs merely
adds support issues and complexity.
if you simply have a handful of machines, I think you should take
the lowest-tech approach: install a comfortable distro on all of
them, and you're done. distros like fedora already include working
versions of MPI (indeed sometimes even PVM). for a personal cluster,
you don't necessarily need anything else: schedulers, monitoring,
private networks, etc. it's not absolutely necessary, but the first
feature I'd add would be a shared filesystem (just an NFS export from
somewhere).
> this cluster is intended for my scientific activity to make a work, that
> would make possible to me to became Ph.D. in heat-transfer coupled with
> hydrodynamics.
well, I think there's more to becoming a phd than running sims on a cluster ;)
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From thakur at mcs.anl.gov Fri Mar 6 14:34:46 2009
From: thakur at mcs.anl.gov (Rajeev Thakur)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 13:34:46 -0600
Subject: [Beowulf] [hpc-announce] SC09: Call for Tutorial Proposals
Message-ID:
Call for SC09 Tutorial Proposals
Experts in high performance computing are invited to share their expertise
with the High Performance Computing (HPC) community by submitting proposals
for tutorials at the SC09 conference to be held in Portland, Oregon,
November 14-20, 2009. The SC09 tutorials program will give attendees the
opportunity to explore a wide variety of important topics related to
high-performance computing, networking, and storage. SC09 invites proposals
for introductory, intermediate, and advanced tutorials, either full-day (six
hours) or half-day (three hours). A distinguished panel of experts will
select the tutorials from the submitted proposals. Submissions for tutorials
and other aspects of the SC09 technical program open Monday, March 16, 2009.
The deadline for submission is April 6, 2009.
Detailed information: http://sc09.supercomputing.org/?pg=tutorials.html
Questions: tutorials at info.supercomputing.org
Regards,
Fred Johnson and Rajeev Thakur
SC09 Tutorials Co-Chairs
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From bejosukamto at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 16:20:32 2009
From: bejosukamto at gmail.com (Bejo Sukamto)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 03:20:32 +0700
Subject: [Beowulf] How to Configure and install xmpi-2.2.3b8
Message-ID: <6395e7990903081320u62da0c99ufa3436d0d3c5976@mail.gmail.com>
How to install and configure xmpi-2.2.3b8 with lam-7.1.4 for this
spesification:
- opensuse 8.1 with openmotif 2.2 and default C and C++ compiler
- and lam configuration
./configure --prefix=/usr/local --with-trillium --with-rsh="ssh -x"
--without-fc
?
Thanks for your Attention And Answers Please?
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From polk678 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 05:08:25 2009
From: polk678 at gmail.com (gossips J)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 14:38:25 +0530
Subject: [Beowulf] HPCC "intel_mpi" error
Message-ID:
Hi,
We are using ICR validation.
We are facing following problem while running below command:
cluster-check --debug --include_only intel_mpi /root/sample.xml
Problem is:
Output of cluster checker shows us that "intel_mpi" FAILED, where as by
looking into debug.out file it is seen that "Hello World" is returned from
all nodes.
I have 16 nodes configuration and we are running 8 proc/node.
Above behavior is observed with even 1 proc/node, 2 proc/node, 4 proc/node
as well. I also tried "rdma" and "rdssm" as a DEVICE in XML file but no luck.
If anyone can shed some light on this issue, it would be great help.
Another thing I would like to know is:
Is there a way to specify "-env RDMA_TRANSLATION_CACHE" option with
Intel Cluster Checker?
Awaiting for kind response,
Thanks in advance,
Polk.
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From herborn at usna.edu Tue Mar 10 14:35:39 2009
From: herborn at usna.edu (Steve Herborn)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:35:39 -0400
Subject: [Beowulf] Cluster doesn't like being moved
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <3A7364A8B6624B9D9EEEE46D0C21E298@dynamic.usna.edu>
I have a small test cluster built off Novell SUES Enterprise Server 10.2
that is giving me fits. It seems that every time the hardware is physically
moved (keep getting kicked out of the space I'm using), I end up with any
number of different problems.
Personally I suspect some type of hardware issue (this equipment is about 5
years old), but one of my co-workers isn't so sure hardware is in play. I
was having problems with the RAID initializing after one move back which I
resolved a while back by reseating the RAID controller card.
This time It appears that the file system & configuration databases became
corrupted after moving the equipment. Several services aren't starting up
(LADP, DHCP, PBS to name a few) and YAST2 hangs any time an attempt is made
to use it. For example adding a printer or software package. My co-worker
feels the issue maybe related to the ReiserFS file system with AMD
processors. The ReiserFS file system was the default presented when I
initially installed SLES so I went with it.
Do you know of any issues with using the ReiserFS file system on AMD based
systems or have any other ideas what I maybe facing?
Steven A. Herborn
U.S. Naval Academy
Advanced Research Computing
410-293-6480 (Desk)
757-418-0505 (Cell)
_____
From: beowulf-bounces at beowulf.org [mailto:beowulf-bounces at beowulf.org] On
Behalf Of gossips J
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 5:08 AM
To: beowulf at beowulf.org
Subject: [Beowulf] HPCC "intel_mpi" error
Hi,
We are using ICR validation.
We are facing following problem while running below command:
cluster-check --debug --include_only intel_mpi /root/sample.xml
Problem is:
Output of cluster checker shows us that "intel_mpi" FAILED, where as by
looking into debug.out file it is seen that "Hello World" is returned from
all nodes.
I have 16 nodes configuration and we are running 8 proc/node.
Above behavior is observed with even 1 proc/node, 2 proc/node, 4 proc/node
as well. I also tried "rdma" and "rdssm" as a DEVICE in XML file but no
luck.
If anyone can shed some light on this issue, it would be great help.
Another thing I would like to know is:
Is there a way to specify "-env RDMA_TRANSLATION_CACHE" option with Intel
Cluster Checker?
Awaiting for kind response,
Thanks in advance,
Polk.
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From hahn at mcmaster.ca Tue Mar 10 15:05:50 2009
From: hahn at mcmaster.ca (Mark Hahn)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 15:05:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] Cluster doesn't like being moved
In-Reply-To: <3A7364A8B6624B9D9EEEE46D0C21E298@dynamic.usna.edu>
References:
<3A7364A8B6624B9D9EEEE46D0C21E298@dynamic.usna.edu>
Message-ID:
> moved (keep getting kicked out of the space I'm using), I end up with any
> number of different problems.
debugging is mainly about breaking down the system into components
whose correctness can be observed separately.
> Personally I suspect some type of hardware issue (this equipment is about 5
> years old), but one of my co-workers isn't so sure hardware is in play. I
> was having problems with the RAID initializing after one move back which I
> resolved a while back by reseating the RAID controller card.
sounds a bit blackmagic to me. I don't believe I've ever had a problem
solved by card reseating (though dimm reseating does seem to clean up
40% of of the nodes I see that are reporting a lot of corrected ecc's.)
> This time It appears that the file system & configuration databases became
> corrupted after moving the equipment. Several services aren't starting up
> (LADP, DHCP, PBS to name a few) and YAST2 hangs any time an attempt is made
simplify. to me, it sounds like your network (ip, route, dns) is confused.
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From mathog at caltech.edu Tue Mar 10 15:38:16 2009
From: mathog at caltech.edu (David Mathog)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:38:16 -0700
Subject: [Beowulf] Re: Cluster doesn't like being moved (Steve Herborn)
Message-ID:
"Steve Herborn" wrote:
> I have a small test cluster built off Novell SUES Enterprise Server 10.2
> that is giving me fits. It seems that every time the hardware is
physically
> moved (keep getting kicked out of the space I'm using), I end up with any
> number of different problems.
Off the top of my head...
1. motherboard batteries may be going/gone, leading to BIOS changes
when unplugged during the move (or shut down for any extended period of
time), leading to failures.
2. iffy wiring connections of any type (cards, data cables, power
supply cables, jumpers from case to motherboard, etc.)
>
> Personally I suspect some type of hardware issue (this equipment is
about 5
> years old), but one of my co-workers isn't so sure hardware is in play. I
> was having problems with the RAID initializing after one move back which I
> resolved a while back by reseating the RAID controller card.
That would be consistent with (2). If moving involves any "rolling on
small wheels over rough surfaces" failed electrical connections are a
common result. We have a cart with about 10" inflated tires which is
used to move equipment, specifically to minimize this issue. The last 2
racks we moved were completely disassembled, the frame moved first, then
the nodes moved to it on this cart.
Regards,
David Mathog
mathog at caltech.edu
Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech
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From jmdavis1 at vcu.edu Tue Mar 10 15:46:03 2009
From: jmdavis1 at vcu.edu (Mike Davis)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 15:46:03 -0400
Subject: [Beowulf] Cluster doesn't like being moved
In-Reply-To: <3A7364A8B6624B9D9EEEE46D0C21E298@dynamic.usna.edu>
References:
<3A7364A8B6624B9D9EEEE46D0C21E298@dynamic.usna.edu>
Message-ID: <49B6C37B.9040504@vcu.edu>
Steve Herborn wrote:
>
> I have a small test cluster built off Novell SUES Enterprise Server
> 10.2 that is giving me fits. It seems that every time the hardware is
> physically moved (keep getting kicked out of the space I'm using), I
> end up with any number of different problems.
>
> Personally I suspect some type of hardware issue (this equipment is
> about 5 years old), but one of my co-workers isn't so sure hardware is
> in play. I was having problems with the RAID initializing after one
> move back which I resolved a while back by reseating the RAID
> controller card.
>
> This time It appears that the file system & configuration databases
> became corrupted after moving the equipment. Several services aren't
> starting up (LADP, DHCP, PBS to name a few) and YAST2 hangs any time
> an attempt is made to use it. For example adding a printer or software
> package. My co-worker feels the issue maybe related to the ReiserFS
> file system with AMD processors. The ReiserFS file system was the
> default presented when I initially installed SLES so I went with it.
>
> Do you know of any issues with using the ReiserFS file system on AMD
> based systems or have any other ideas what I maybe facing?
>
>
>
> *Steven A. Herborn*
>
> *U.S. Naval Academy*
>
> *Advanced Research Computing*
>
> *410-293-6480 (Desk)*
>
> *757-418-0505 (Cell)*
>
>
My experience is that anytime a system runs for months or years, a
shutdown leads to issues. Sometimes, hard drives fail to speed up, other
times power supplies may fail, and occasionally RAM or MB's may go bad.
It may be hardware, and it may be a vibration issue brought on by the
move. Then again, it may be magic!
--
Mike Davis Technical Director
(804) 828-3885 Center for High Performance Computing
jmdavis1 at vcu.edu Virginia Commonwealth University
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity." George S. Patton
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From landman at scalableinformatics.com Tue Mar 10 17:06:39 2009
From: landman at scalableinformatics.com (Joe Landman)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 17:06:39 -0400
Subject: [Beowulf] Cluster doesn't like being moved
In-Reply-To: <3A7364A8B6624B9D9EEEE46D0C21E298@dynamic.usna.edu>
References:
<3A7364A8B6624B9D9EEEE46D0C21E298@dynamic.usna.edu>
Message-ID: <49B6D65F.2010104@scalableinformatics.com>
Steve Herborn wrote:
> This time It appears that the file system & configuration databases
> became corrupted after moving the equipment. Several services aren't
> starting up (LADP, DHCP, PBS to name a few) and YAST2 hangs any time an
> attempt is made to use it. For example adding a printer or software
> package. My co-worker feels the issue maybe related to the ReiserFS file
> system with AMD processors. The ReiserFS file system was the default
> presented when I initially installed SLES so I went with it.
Ouch. Can you boot an OpenSuSE disk in rescue mode and fsck the file
system?
I have had two (severe) data losses in my work on Linux, one was with
ext2, and the other with Reiserfs. Wouldn't recommend using either one
in a production mode for data that needed long term viability.
> Do you know of any issues with using the ReiserFS file system on AMD
> based systems or have any other ideas what I maybe facing?
Yes, reiserfs may have been silently accumulating errors that only
became apparent upon restart. Or its fsck munged the file system.
If you can move off of it, I would urge you to do that. It is likely
that the configuration data that your non-starting services depend upon
are lost. Can you rebuild this (or pay someone to do so) without too
much pain?
--
Joseph Landman, Ph.D
Founder and CEO
Scalable Informatics LLC,
email: landman at scalableinformatics.com
web : http://www.scalableinformatics.com
phone: +1 734 786 8423
fax : +1 734 786 8452
cell : +1 734 612 4615
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From hearnsj at googlemail.com Wed Mar 11 05:47:41 2009
From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 09:47:41 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] Cluster doesn't like being moved
In-Reply-To: <3A7364A8B6624B9D9EEEE46D0C21E298@dynamic.usna.edu>
References:
<3A7364A8B6624B9D9EEEE46D0C21E298@dynamic.usna.edu>
Message-ID: <9f8092cc0903110247g54f75c95l6dd5b5db4838df35@mail.gmail.com>
2009/3/10 Steve Herborn :
> I> Do you know of any issues with using the ReiserFS file system on AMD based
> systems or have any other ideas what I maybe facing?
>
This might be a wake up call to change your storage.
It looks like you are using Reiser for the root filesystem - in which
case it might be a pain to change the filesystem. I would still
consider it though -
source a new system disk and put it in tandem with the original disk.
Boot the system with a Knoppix CD, format and make
new ext3 filesystems on the new disk. Rsync the root filesystem, pus
/usr /var etc. filesystems across.
One other tip - if you are getting system services failing to start,
calm down and take things logically step by step.
Connect a monitor and keyboard to the system. Boot it in single user.
Look at the boot log and dmesg - there are no disk errors, right?
Test the disk by writing some junk data to /tmp Again no errors, right?
Bring up the network interface by hand. Ping some hosts on your network.
Finally run 'init 3' in one console window, and in another have a
'tail -f /var/log/messages' running.
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From hearnsj at googlemail.com Wed Mar 11 05:58:04 2009
From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 09:58:04 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] Re: Cluster doesn't like being moved (Steve Herborn)
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <9f8092cc0903110258t72a4f4edkf06a71f88c1a5c44@mail.gmail.com>
2009/3/10 David Mathog :
>> That would be consistent with (2). If moving involves any "rolling on
> small wheels over rough surfaces" failed electrical connections are a
> common result. ?We have a cart with about 10" inflated tires which is
> used to move equipment, specifically to minimize this issue. ?The last 2
> racks we moved were completely disassembled, the frame moved first, then
> the nodes moved to it on this cart.
This is good advice. I once participated in a move of clusters to a
new building at an oil company. I was very, very impressed with their
professionalism. They had hired a moving company, who unracked every
node and wrapped it in bubble wrap before moving it across to the new
building. As a result the systems came back up without major problems.
Five year old kit is getting old and cranky, and should be treated
like your arthritic grandmother.
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From eugen at leitl.org Thu Mar 12 11:20:03 2009
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 16:20:03 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] Cray uses Supermicro blades for CX1
Message-ID: <20090312152003.GV11917@leitl.org>
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/356/1051356/cray-supermicro-blades-cx1
Cray uses Supermicro blades for CX1
CeBit 2009 Deskbottom supercomputer
By Charlie Demerjian
Tuesday, 10 March 2009, 16:33
YOU MAY HAVE heard about the Cray CX1, a 'desktop cluster' in the vein of the
Tyan Typhoon. They are interesting little beasts, and with the addition of
Nehalems, now have the grunt to be a deskbottom supercomputer.
Cray_LX1
The front of the beastlet
The CX1 isn't a breakthrough in technology by any means, it is just a product
to fill a niche. The machine itself has eight blades that will each take two
Nehalem EPs, and a claimed 32G of RAM/blade. We won't bring up that Nehalems
use ram in 6G increments, if you can count to 32 evenly in sixes, you are
using a different base than most people.
In addition to Nehalems, you can opt for a storage blade, normally you only
get two drives per blade or a GPGPU blade. Out the back, there is Infiniband
or Ethernet, take your pick. That said, the cable routing could use a little
cleaning up...
LX1_rear
Back of the beastlet
Cray probably doesn't want you to know that the blades are in fact Supermicro
blades, so you could probably get away with a little less cost should you
shop around. That said, the version you see above, with four Harpertown x 2
blades, a GPGPU blade and active noise cancellation is available online for
about $30K.
It may be a little while to Christmas, but what tot wouldn't be delighted to
see one of these under the tree?
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From smulcahy at atlanticlinux.ie Fri Mar 13 07:50:46 2009
From: smulcahy at atlanticlinux.ie (stephen mulcahy)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 11:50:46 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] No guards on 1u server fans - common practice?
Message-ID: <49BA4896.9000801@atlanticlinux.ie>
Hi,
I have inherited 40 servers which I'm currently building a Hadoop[1]
cluster out of (I know, not typical beowulf fare but we're using the
same principles to roll out the systems, manage them and so on).
We've been upgrading the drives in these servers (they are a few years
old and came with 1 x 80GB drives, we're moving to 2 x 1TB drives since
we're using Hadoop mainly for it's distributed filesystem properties)
and I've run into a few problems now with a pretty simple problem.
I guess I'm mailing the beowulf list with a view to adding something
else to your list of things to look out for when troubleshooting servers
and to query as to what I've found is general practice.
We ran into some fan problems after powering up some of the systems to
do initial smoke testing. After a little head-scratching and looking at
a system running on a workbench - it became obvious what was causing the
fans to fail. The SATA power cables and in some cases, the SATA data
cables were sticking into some of the fans blocking them. Hence the error.
The fans don't feature any guards (plastic or metal). I've since
re-examined all the systems and in most cases, we had inadvertently
created these cable+fan problems during the installation of the second
drive. The only way to avoid if that I can see is to stuff the excess
cable under one of the drives. This is fine, now that I realise it is
neccesary but it strikes me that unguarded fans in 1u servers with very
little space for cables is a pretty poor design. I don't think I've seen
this in other 1u servers I've worked on (but I'll certainly be keeping
an eye out in future).
Is this really poor design (the server vendor shall go nameless though
they are a tier-1) or am I expecting too much out of 1u server fans?
-stephen
[1] http://hadoop.apache.org/core/
--
Stephen Mulcahy Atlantic Linux http://www.atlanticlinux.ie
Registered in Ireland, no. 376591 (144 Ros Caoin, Roscam, Galway)
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From landman at scalableinformatics.com Fri Mar 13 09:20:59 2009
From: landman at scalableinformatics.com (Joe Landman)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 09:20:59 -0400
Subject: [Beowulf] No guards on 1u server fans - common practice?
In-Reply-To: <49BA4896.9000801@atlanticlinux.ie>
References: <49BA4896.9000801@atlanticlinux.ie>
Message-ID: <49BA5DBB.3080906@scalableinformatics.com>
stephen mulcahy wrote:
> Is this really poor design (the server vendor shall go nameless though
> they are a tier-1) or am I expecting too much out of 1u server fans?
We had a supplier that liked to avoid putting the guards on the fans.
It's generally not a good thing ... there is injury risk as well other
issues (possible electrical shorts for cut wires, fan self destruction
due to impacts ... and subsequent shrapnel ...)
Whenever possible, we like to try to route wires away from the fans, or
if we have no choice due to length constraints, we will try to tie them
to rigid structures to prevent interference.
--
Joseph Landman, Ph.D
Founder and CEO
Scalable Informatics LLC,
email: landman at scalableinformatics.com
web : http://www.scalableinformatics.com
http://jackrabbit.scalableinformatics.com
phone: +1 734 786 8423 x121
fax : +1 866 888 3112
cell : +1 734 612 4615
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From bart at attglobal.net Tue Mar 10 15:00:27 2009
From: bart at attglobal.net (Bart Jennings)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:00:27 -0700
Subject: [Beowulf] Cluster doesn't like being moved
In-Reply-To: <3A7364A8B6624B9D9EEEE46D0C21E298@dynamic.usna.edu>
References:
<3A7364A8B6624B9D9EEEE46D0C21E298@dynamic.usna.edu>
Message-ID: <49B6B8CB.7000403@attglobal.net>
Just some thoughts... Since you are physically moving the machines,
things like loose cards, processors, heat sinks/fans, memory, cables
come to mind. I've personally have had loose heat sinks cause
processors to do funky things (software crashes/corruption, etc...).
I've heard of issues with the disk heads hitting the platters while they
were moved which lead to data loss. Have you tried running a full file
system check? I think most modern disks lock the disk armatures in
place now but the disks/raid device might have software to do this for
you though still. Other problem sources might include weird
environmental ones, like excessive heat and magnetic fields playing
havoc with the hardware during the transition.
Good luck figuring it out.
Bart
Steve Herborn wrote:
>
> I have a small test cluster built off Novell SUES Enterprise Server
> 10.2 that is giving me fits. It seems that every time the hardware is
> physically moved (keep getting kicked out of the space I'm using), I
> end up with any number of different problems.
>
> Personally I suspect some type of hardware issue (this equipment is
> about 5 years old), but one of my co-workers isn't so sure hardware is
> in play. I was having problems with the RAID initializing after one
> move back which I resolved a while back by reseating the RAID
> controller card.
>
> This time It appears that the file system & configuration databases
> became corrupted after moving the equipment. Several services aren't
> starting up (LADP, DHCP, PBS to name a few) and YAST2 hangs any time
> an attempt is made to use it. For example adding a printer or software
> package. My co-worker feels the issue maybe related to the ReiserFS
> file system with AMD processors. The ReiserFS file system was the
> default presented when I initially installed SLES so I went with it.
>
> Do you know of any issues with using the ReiserFS file system on AMD
> based systems or have any other ideas what I maybe facing?
>
>
>
> *Steven A. Herborn*
>
> *U.S. Naval Academy*
>
> *Advanced Research Computing*
>
> *410-293-6480 (Desk)*
>
> *757-418-0505 (Cell)*
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* beowulf-bounces at beowulf.org
> [mailto:beowulf-bounces at beowulf.org] *On Behalf Of *gossips J
> *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2009 5:08 AM
> *To:* beowulf at beowulf.org
> *Subject:* [Beowulf] HPCC "intel_mpi" error
>
> Hi,
>
> We are using ICR validation.
>
> We are facing following problem while running below command:
>
> cluster-check --debug --include_only intel_mpi /root/sample.xml
>
>
> Problem is:
>
> Output of cluster checker shows us that "intel_mpi" FAILED, where as by
> looking into debug.out file it is seen that "Hello World" is returned from
> all nodes.
>
>
> I have 16 nodes configuration and we are running 8 proc/node.
>
> Above behavior is observed with even 1 proc/node, 2 proc/node, 4 proc/node
> as well. I also tried "rdma" and "rdssm" as a DEVICE in XML file but no luck.
>
> If anyone can shed some light on this issue, it would be great help.
>
>
> Another thing I would like to know is:
>
> Is there a way to specify "-env RDMA_TRANSLATION_CACHE" option with Intel Cluster Checker?
> Awaiting for kind response,
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Polk.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
>
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From feng at cs.vt.edu Wed Mar 11 13:06:09 2009
From: feng at cs.vt.edu (Wuchun Feng)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:06:09 -0400
Subject: [Beowulf] [hpc-announce] IEEE Computer: Special Issue on "Tools and
Environments for Multi- and Many-Core Architectures"
Message-ID: <56627F95-D5D9-4222-8F31-90E958F6D45F@cs.vt.edu>
An amended CFP ... this time, with web links to the submission
guidelines and instructions.
Regards, Wu
----
IEEE Computer
Special Issue on Tools and Environments for Multi- and Many-Core
Architectures
DEADLINE EXTENDED to March 31, 2009
For submission instructions, please visit http://www.computer.org/portal/pages/computer/content/author.html
To submit, go to https://mc.manuscriptcentral.com/cs-ieee.
In the past, computing speeds doubled every 18-24 months by increasing
the clock speed, thus giving software a "free ride" to better
performance whenever the clock speed increased. This free ride is now
over, and such automatic performance improvement is no longer possible.
With clock speeds stalling out and computational horsepower instead
increasing due to the rapid doubling of the number of cores per
processor, serial computing is now dead, and the vision for parallel
computing, which started over forty years ago, is a revolution that is
now upon us.
With the advent of multi-core chips --- from the traditional AMD and
Intel multi-core to the more exotic hybrid multi-core of IBM Cell and
many-core of AMD/ATi and nVidia GPGPUs --- parallel computing across
multiple cores on a single chip has become a necessity. However,
writing parallel applications is a significant undertaking that will
create more, not less, problematic software.
In order for parallelism to succeed, it must ultimately produce better
performance relative to speed and efficiency. However, not only are
most programmers ill-equipped to produce proper parallel programs, but
they also lack the tools and environments for producing such programs.
Therefore, the purpose of this special issue is to present the latest
advances in next-generation tools and environments for multi- and many-
core architectures. We solicit contributions in areas including, but
not limited to:
- Programming models and environments for multi-core and many-core
architectures
- Systems scheduling and management between different subsystems of
multi-core and many-core architectures
- Compile-time and run-time optimizations in multi-core and many-core
architectures
- Tools to enhance programming productivity in multi-core and many-
core architectures
- Performance evaluation of applications and system software in multi-
core and many-core architectures
- Software productivity studies
- Fault tolerance and virtualization
- Monitoring and measurement tools to better enable debugging and
performance optimization
--
Prof. Wu FENG | Synergy Laboratory | Depts. of CS and ECE |
2202 Kraft Dr | Virginia Tech | Blacksburg, VA 24060-6356 |
540-231-1192 | feng at cs.vt.edu | http://www.cs.vt.edu/~feng
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From traff at it.neclab.eu Thu Mar 12 04:29:17 2009
From: traff at it.neclab.eu (Jesper Larsson Traeff)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:29:17 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] [hpc-announce] CFP: Highly Parallel Processing on a Chip
(HPPC 2009) Euro-Par Workshop
Message-ID: <20090312082917.GB9748@fourier.it.neclab.eu>
CALL FOR PAPERS
3rd full-day Workshop on Highly Parallel Processing on a Chip (HPPC)
August 25, 2009, Delft, The Netherlands
http://www.hppc-workshop.org/
to be held in conjunction with the 15th International European
Conference on Parallel and Distributed Computing (Euro-Par), August
25-28, 2009, Delft, The Netherlands
http://europar2009.ewi.tudelft.nl/
AIMS AND SCOPE
The decline in the growth of single-processor performance, the growing concerns with energy consumption, and the still exponential increase in transistors per chip as per Moore's law, will open the scene for single-chip processors with a substantial amount of parallelism to meet the demands for extremely high performance, reliability, and controlable power consumption in all areas of computing. The major challenge for the coming years will be the design of architectures supporting manageable programming abstractions to allow the mainstream programmer to take advantage of the processing power promised by the technological developments.
HPPC, the third workshop in the series, co-located with the EuroPar conference, is *the* workshop dedicated to addressing all aspects of highly parallel processing on a chip, be it in existing or emerging multi-core designs, or in bold, new proposals for architectures, programming models, languages and libraries for managing and exploiting massive levels of parallelism on a chip. Particular emphasis is on the interaction between hardware, architecture (processors, on-chip networks, cache and memory system), programming models and languages, and algorithms as well as applications in need of significant amounts of single-chip parallelism. The workshop will be conducted in an informal atmosphere, stressing interaction and discussion between presenters and audience.
Topics of interest include, but are not limited to
- hardware techniques (e.g. power saving, clocking, fault-tolerance)
- processor core architectures (homogeneous and heterogeneous)
- special purpose processors (accelerators, GPUs)
- on-chip memory and cache (or cache-less) organization, and interconnects
- off-chip memory, I/O, and multi-core interconnects
- overall system design (resource allocation and balancing)
- programming models (e.g. PRAM, BSP, data parallel, vector, transactional)
- languages and software libraries
- implementation techniques (e.g. multi-threading, work-stealing)
- support and performance tools, performance evaluation
- parallel algorithms and applications
- migration of existing codebase
- teaching of parallel computing
for/on highly parallel multi-core systems.
SUBMISSION
Authors are encouraged to submit original, unpublished research or
overviews addressing issues in the design and application of highly
parallel multi-core processors as outlined above. Papers should be
limited to 10 pages, and typeset in the Springer LNCS style (for
details, see www.springer.de/comp/lncs/authors.html). Accepted papers
that are presented at the workshop, will be published in
revised form in a special Euro-Par Workshop Volume in the Lecture
Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series AFTER the Euro-Par conference.
The proceedings of the first HPPC workshop appeared in Springer LNCS Volume 4854.
SUBMISSION GUIDELINES
Please see the workshop www-page: http://www.hppc-workshop.org
IMPORTANT DATES
Submission of manuscripts: Friday, 5th June, 2009
Notification of acceptance: Monday, 20th July 2009
Date of workshop: Tuesday 25th August, 2009
Deadline for final version (post-proceedings): September, 2009
WORKSHOP ORGANIZERS
Martti Forsell, VTT, Finland
Jesper Larsson Traff, NEC Laboratories Europe, NEC Europe Ltd, Germany
PROGRAM COMMITTEE
David Bader, Georgia Institute of Technology, USA
Gianfranco Bilardi, University of Padova, Italy
Marc Daumas, University of Perpignan Via Domitia, France
Martti Forsell, VTT, Finland
Peter Hofstee, IBM, USA
Chris Jesshope, University of Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Ben Juurlink, Technical University of Delft, The Netherlands
Jorg Keller, University of Hagen, Germany
Christoph Kessler, University of Linkoping, Sweden
Dominique Lavenier, IRISA - CNRS, France
Ville Leppanen, University of Turku, Finland
Radu Marculescu, Carnegie Mellon University, USA
Lasse Natvig, NTNU, Norway
Geppino Pucci, University of Padova, Italy
Jesper Larsson Traff, NEC Laboratories Europe, NEC Europe Ltd, Germany
Uzi Vishkin, University of Maryland, USA
CONTACT INFO
Email: chair at hppc-workshop.org
SPONSORS
VTT
NEC
Euro-Par
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From niftyompi at niftyegg.com Fri Mar 13 14:50:06 2009
From: niftyompi at niftyegg.com (Nifty Tom Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 11:50:06 -0700
Subject: [Beowulf] No guards on 1u server fans - common practice?
In-Reply-To: <49BA4896.9000801@atlanticlinux.ie>
References: <49BA4896.9000801@atlanticlinux.ie>
Message-ID: <20090313185006.GA3425@compegg.wr.niftyegg.com>
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 11:50:46AM +0000, stephen mulcahy wrote:
>
> I have inherited 40 servers which I'm currently building a Hadoop[1]
....
> We ran into some fan problems after powering up some of the systems to
> do initial smoke testing. After a little head-scratching and looking at
> a system running on a workbench - it became obvious what was causing the
> fans to fail. The SATA power cables and in some cases, the SATA data
> cables were sticking into some of the fans blocking them. Hence the
> error.
>
> The fans don't feature any guards (plastic or metal). I've since
This is a common situation.
It pays to invest in a Tie-Wrap gun and a big bag of cable wraps.
A tiewrap Gun automatically tightens and cuts Tie Wraps flush with head
in one operation. Adjust the cut off trigger to be gentle to not over
clamp the cables. Inside the chassis small ties are better.
Also look for hook and loop ties for data and power cables outside of
the box. I have found that the garden supply can sometimes have them for
less than computer stores. I like the two or three meter roll where hooks
are on one side and loops are on another (i.e. no adhesive). I cut them
into various lengths and like them because they are so handy in organizing
wires prior to using a tie-wrap for more permanent installation.
I especially like the hook and loop product for cables like infiniband
and coax where a too tight tie-wraps can mess with the cable quality.
In a repair shop you will see the tech snip the old wraps with diagonal cutters
replace the part and zip/snip reinstall the ties again. There is a knack
involved to not cut the wires in how the nippers are oriented.
When you are shopping pick up a bag of multi colored ties and you can
quickly add a color pattern to both ends of a cable to make it easy to
find the other end. I do this on most of my 'test' and 'temp' cables
it can be a lot quicker than colored tape. This way I am less apt to
pull a production wire in error in a service situation.
--
T o m M i t c h e l l
Found me a new hat, now what?
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From kus at free.net Mon Mar 16 13:48:31 2009
From: kus at free.net (Mikhail Kuzminsky)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:48:31 +0300
Subject: [Beowulf] Sun X4600 STREAM results
Message-ID:
Sorry, do somebody have X4600 M2 Stream results (or the corresponding
URLs) for DDR2/667 - w/dependance from processor core numbers?
Mikhail Kuzminsky
Computer Assistance to Chemical Reserach Center
Zelinsky Institute of Organic Chemistry RAS
Moscow
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From francesco.pietra at accademialucchese.it Fri Mar 13 11:47:39 2009
From: francesco.pietra at accademialucchese.it (Francesco Pietra)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 16:47:39 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] Resource conflict
Message-ID:
I have resumed a Tyan S2895 with two dual-opteron, placed in 2 slots
of 400MHz Kingston DDR1 ECC, two sata 250GB Maxtor, new CD-ROM and
floppy, PS2 mouse and US keyboard (it was previously running fine with
16GB RAM, two WD 150GB Raptor, and different CD-ROM and floppy; then
the machine remained unused for one year)
I have yesterday installed on this machine Debian amd64 lenny 5.0.0
(netinstall from CD-ROM) creating 3 partitions 1 2 3 on sda and sdb of
0.2G, 1.0G, and nearly the rest of the drive. Selected all the
partitions to be a raid device
configure raid
md0 = sda1 sdb1
md1 = sda2 sdb2
md2 = sda3 sdb3
selected md0 as type ext2 mount /boot
selected md1 as type ext3 mount /
selected md2 as type lvm device
configured lvm for /home /usr /var /tmp /swap /opt. Installed grub on
master boot record. Reboot: OK.
Next day, on booting:
Phoenix Trusted Server 1.03.2895
CPU0 MemClk 200MHz Tcl=3.0 Trc=3 Tras=8 Trp=3
CPU1 MemClk 100MHz Tcl=??? Trc=0 Tras=Trp=0
LTD frequency=1000MHz LTD width=16 bit DOWN-16 bit UP
2048M System RAM passed
2048K Cache SRAM passed
System BIOS shadowed
Video BIOS shadowed
ATAPI CD-ROM: HL-DT-STDVD-RAM GH22LP20
Mouse (PS2) initialized
System configuration data updated
ERROR
Resource conflict - PCI Mass Storage Controller in slot 01
Bus:01, Device:04, Function:00 was unable to run due to memory constraints.
=====
Well, I am no system maintainer (there is nobody here that qualifies
for that) and I can imagine a lot of different possibilities, from
faulty RAM (that suspicious reading 200MHz and 100MHz, while they are
400MHz) on...
Thanks for suggestions
francesco pietra
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From hahn at mcmaster.ca Mon Mar 16 23:24:24 2009
From: hahn at mcmaster.ca (Mark Hahn)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:24:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] Resource conflict
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
> of 400MHz Kingston DDR1 ECC, two sata 250GB Maxtor, new CD-ROM and
so this is ddr1/pc3200, right?
> Phoenix Trusted Server 1.03.2895
I think that bios version is quite out of date:
http://www.tyan.com/support_download_bios.aspx?model=S.S2895
> CPU0 MemClk 200MHz Tcl=3.0 Trc=3 Tras=8 Trp=3
200 gets doubled (ddr) to 400 mega-transfers per second, which is pc3200.
> CPU1 MemClk 100MHz Tcl=??? Trc=0 Tras=Trp=0
this indicates that the memory isn't detected, I think. I think you
have just two dimms installed, which would agree.
> Resource conflict - PCI Mass Storage Controller in slot 01
> Bus:01, Device:04, Function:00 was unable to run due to memory constraints.
that sounds like the device is requiring its PCI resources
mapped to physical addresses occupied by memory. I would guess
that there are bios options that would work around this. but
I'd update the bios first.
> Well, I am no system maintainer (there is nobody here that qualifies
> for that) and I can imagine a lot of different possibilities, from
> faulty RAM (that suspicious reading 200MHz and 100MHz, while they are
> 400MHz) on...
nah, the ram sounds fine. the issue is getting it to boot into the
flash image, I think.
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From peter.st.john at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 09:56:26 2009
From: peter.st.john at gmail.com (Peter St. John)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:56:26 -0400
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
Message-ID:
This article at Wired is about Go playing computers:
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/gobrain.html
Includes a pic of a 24 node cluster at Santa Cruz, and a YouTube video of a
famous game set to music :-)
My beef, which started with Ken Thompson saying he was disappointed by how
little we learned about human cognition from chess computers, is about
statements like this:
"People hoped that if we had a strong Go program, it would teach us how our
minds work. But that's not the case," said Bob
Hearn,
a Dartmouth College artificial intelligence programmer. "We just threw brute
force at a program we thought required intellect."
And yet the article points out:
[our brain is an]...efficiently configured biological processor ? sporting
1015 neural connections, capable of 1016 calculations per second
Our brains do brute-force massively distributed computing. We just aren't
conscious of most of it.
Peter
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From cap at nsc.liu.se Wed Mar 18 11:55:00 2009
From: cap at nsc.liu.se (Peter Kjellstrom)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:55:00 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <200903181655.05735.cap@nsc.liu.se>
On Wednesday 18 March 2009, Peter St. John wrote:
> This article at Wired is about Go playing computers:
> http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/gobrain.html
It should have read:
"Humans No Match for Go Bot Overlords with large handicaps"
not:
"Humans No Match for Go Bot Overlords"
That said, incredible advances have been made lately by the "Bot Overlords".
/Peter
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From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Mar 18 13:34:25 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:34:25 -0700
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
________________________________
From: beowulf-bounces at beowulf.org [mailto:beowulf-bounces at beowulf.org] On Behalf Of Peter St. John
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:56 AM
To: Beowulf Mailing List
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
This article at Wired is about Go playing computers: http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/gobrain.html
Includes a pic of a 24 node cluster at Santa Cruz, and a YouTube video of a famous game set to music :-)
My beef, which started with Ken Thompson saying he was disappointed by how little we learned about human cognition from chess computers, is about statements like this:
"People hoped that if we had a strong Go program, it would teach us how our minds work. But that's not the case," said Bob Hearn , a Dartmouth College artificial intelligence programmer. "We just threw brute force at a program we thought required intellect."
And yet the article points out:
[our brain is an]...efficiently configured biological processor - sporting 1015 neural connections, capable of 1016 calculations per second
Our brains do brute-force massively distributed computing. We just aren't conscious of most of it.
Peter
---
Of course, those 10 "calculations" per second per neuron are basically logical operations like AND/OR/NOT with a single bit, and fairly high error rates. So it's not quite as impressive as all that. Modern high performance desktop CPUs might have 1E8 transistors, and 4GB of memory accounts for another 4E10.. Let's call it 1E11 "active" devices, running at, say, 1E8 operations/second, so we're up to 1E19 "calculations per second" which is 3 orders of magnitude more than the count attributed up to the brain.
The brain is pretty fault tolerant, but also can't run at full compute load for 24/7.
See for instance, Crichton, "The Terminal Man", 1972 which introduced the term "watershed week" (not that it actually exists) for when the total information processing capacity of all computers exceeds that of all humans (Crichton gives March 1969, but hey, it's fiction)
Clarke has a short story along the same lines, except he's talking about telephone switching systems."Dial F for Frankenstein". (and Clarke wrote about a potential hazard of high performance computing in "The Nine Billion Names of God")
For a really, really turgid look at such things, I ran across
Hahn, Torsten.
Risk Communication and Paranoid Hermenutics: Towards a Distinction Between "Medical Thrillers" and "Mind-Control Thrillers" in Narrations on Biocontrol
New Literary History - Volume 36, Number 2, Spring 2005, pp. 187-204
See... If the members of the list hadn't done the hard science/engineering/math route, you could have majored in a more liberal arts and wound up writing about things like "paranoid hermenutics". From the abstract:
" Industrial society in its specific modernity is shown as a sociological form of the past, which has already been replaced by what is called risk society. According to this suggestion, the society we live in can no longer be understood by observing politics, for it is marked by different subpolitics operating beyond democratic legitimation. "
Jim
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From diep at xs4all.nl Wed Mar 18 17:05:49 2009
From: diep at xs4all.nl (Vincent Diepeveen)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:05:49 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <97AFFFED-8A62-42D8-952A-610FAA092D61@xs4all.nl>
Ken Thompson, with all respect forgets to mention something,
that's that there is nothing to earn with computer-go.
You get what you pay for.
Sometimes someone starts a go program first, in order to figure out the
above later. Instantly work stops then and worlds strongest go
program no longer
gets maintained, let alone gets improved.
A few hobbyists will continue and progress very slowly as a result
now at clusters,
using worlds most inefficient search that exists in game tree search.
They didn't
discover even yet how to use efficiently hashtables (which reduces
the search space
exponential).
In short zero Einstein's in computer-go so far on the search front,
whereas the hardware they can get their hands on for computer-go
is big, and there is a lot possible in computer-go, forward pruning
and selectivity
works better there than in chess (to say polite). Hopefully a Chinese
Einstein
one day for computer-go search algorithms.
They already found a lot that works for computer-chess.
For super selective search however you definitely need a few clever
guys.
It is interesting how you try to grab attention for a game where the
strongest current commercial
go-program sold less copies than that past 24 hours there was posts
on this mailing list.
Thanks,
Vincent
On Mar 18, 2009, at 2:56 PM, Peter St. John wrote:
> This article at Wired is about Go playing computers: http://
> blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/gobrain.html
> Includes a pic of a 24 node cluster at Santa Cruz, and a YouTube
> video of a famous game set to music :-)
>
> My beef, which started with Ken Thompson saying he was disappointed
> by how little we learned about human cognition from chess
> computers, is about statements like this:
>
> "People hoped that if we had a strong Go program, it would teach us
> how our minds work. But that's not the case," said Bob Hearn, a
> Dartmouth College artificial intelligence programmer. "We just
> threw brute force at a program we thought required intellect."
>
> And yet the article points out:
>
> [our brain is an]...efficiently configured biological processor ?
> sporting 1015 neural connections, capable of 1016 calculations per
> second
>
> Our brains do brute-force massively distributed computing. We just
> aren't conscious of most of it.
>
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
> http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
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From xclski at yahoo.com Wed Mar 18 20:47:35 2009
From: xclski at yahoo.com (Ellis Wilson)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 17:47:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
Message-ID: <78341.46286.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Peter St. John wrote:
> This article at Wired is about Go playing computers:
> http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/gobrain.html
> Includes a pic of a 24 node cluster at Santa Cruz, and a YouTube video of a
> famous game set to music :-)
>
> My beef, which started with Ken Thompson saying he was disappointed by how
> little we learned about human cognition from chess computers, is about
> statements like this:
>
> "People hoped that if we had a strong Go program, it would teach us how our
> minds work. But that's not the case," said Bob
> Hearn,
> a Dartmouth College artificial intelligence programmer. "We just threw brute
> force at a program we thought required intellect."
>
> And yet the article points out:
>
> [our brain is an]...efficiently configured biological processor ? sporting
> 1015 neural connections, capable of 1016 calculations per second
>
> Our brains do brute-force massively distributed computing. We just aren't
> conscious of most of it.
>
> Peter
Peter,
I would agree with Ken in that it is a disappointing and ultimately
fruitless process to attempt to learn about human cognition by building
a program to emulate some very specific activity of human beings. This
line of thought, in its purest sense, is reductionism. While I do find
artificial intelligence to be very interesting, I believe at some point
or another we will have to recognize that the brain (and our subsequent
existence) is something more than the result of the perceivable atoms
therein. No viewpoint is completely objective as long as we are finite
human-beings and occupy a place in the world we perceive.
To say that all simulation of some portion of our thoughts is fruitless
is incorrect, as I think some insight into the mind is possible through
codifying thought. However, there exist far to many catch-22's and
logical fallacies in using the mind to understand the mind to ever fully
understand how it works from a scientific point of view. Philosophy
will at some point have to step in to explain the (possibly huge) gaps
between even the future's fastest simulated brains and our own.
In a book by Thamas Nagel, "The View from Nowhere" I believe he puts it
most poignantly by stating, "Eventually, I believe, current attempts to
understand the mind by analogy with man-made computers that can perform
superbly some of the same external tasks as conscious beings will be
recognized as a gigantic waste of time". This was written over twenty
years ago. Science has given us tools to make our lives wonderfully
easier and thereby has proven to be useful, but it answers none of the
multitude of mind-body dilemmas, validates the reality of our
perception, nor will it or any other reductionist theory provide insight
into the much more complex areas of cognition. This is especially true
with the discovery of quantum mechanics, which makes the observer's
subjective perception absolutely necessary. Full objectivity (or in
this application full codification of human thought) just isn't possible.
I wish it weren't so, for by study I am a computer scientist and by
hobby philosopher, however, at present I remain skeptical.
Ellis Wilson
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From rgb at phy.duke.edu Thu Mar 19 00:52:49 2009
From: rgb at phy.duke.edu (Robert G. Brown)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 00:52:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To: <78341.46286.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <78341.46286.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2009, Ellis Wilson wrote:
> into the much more complex areas of cognition. This is especially true
> with the discovery of quantum mechanics, which makes the observer's
> subjective perception absolutely necessary. Full objectivity (or in
> this application full codification of human thought) just isn't possible.
I disagree with this statement, as it is not an accurate description of
quantum theory (a common one, but inaccurate nonetheless) and it does a
mild disservice to the theory of cognition as well.
Regarding quantum theory: The "observer" in quantum theory is nothing
more than a subsystem of a quantum mechanical whole. The correct
mathematical treatment of this OPEN system is the Nakajima-Zwanzig
generalized master equation, which describes it as a non-Markovian
integrodifferential equation with a memory kernel that integrates over
prior states and an immediate differential input from the instantaneous
environment. It is a description that can be made recursive and further
generalized by block diagonalization of multiple subsystems.
In a fully relativistic, time reversible quantum description of an
entire closed system there is no need for an observer and no lack of
determinism in the resulting time evolution. Indeterminate time
evolution and the appearance of "wavefunction collapse" is a consequence
of entropy and obviously breaks time reversal invariance. The NZGME
explicitly traces over the state of the "bath" in its partition of
Universe into "system" + "bath" (everything else) and the projection of
this classical, stochastic state into the residual quantum state results
in all of the oddities. To put it still another way, Schrodinger's cat
is always definitely alive until it is definitely dead because it is
impossible to adiabatically disconnect the inside of the infernal device
from the outside, to untangle the entangled quantum state of everything
from some particular part of it. Every particle inside the box is
always interacting with every particle outside the box, and so quantum
"collapse" is either ongoing or presumptive of a degree of separation
that is not possible in our spacetime.
> I wish it weren't so, for by study I am a computer scientist and by
> hobby philosopher, however, at present I remain skeptical.
I'm rather hopeful, myself. I think that some real progress has been
made and think that we are five, at most ten, years away from "real AI"
-- true machine intelligence and self-aware systems. Not just
programmed simulations of intelligence or decision trees -- the real
thing. I think that the computational problem is well within the reach
of modern beowulfs; the hard part is the formulation of the awareness
kernel and having just the right insights. Even there there appears to
be progress. Only in the last decade has it finally been recognized
that awareness is a DYNAMIC process, not a static one, in certain
crucial ways (see e.g. Tim van Gelder's work). This is what I hope to
work on next, aside from random numbers.
rgb
>
> Ellis Wilson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
>
Robert G. Brown http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/
Duke University Dept. of Physics, Box 90305
Durham, N.C. 27708-0305
Phone: 1-919-660-2567 Fax: 919-660-2525 email:rgb at phy.duke.edu
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From herborn at usna.edu Thu Mar 19 10:13:08 2009
From: herborn at usna.edu (Steve Herborn)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:13:08 -0400
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To: <97AFFFED-8A62-42D8-952A-610FAA092D61@xs4all.nl>
References:
<97AFFFED-8A62-42D8-952A-610FAA092D61@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID:
While I don't intend to wane as philosophical as some in this thread, I
think many are forgetting one important aspect.
The one thing that mankind has done for a very long time is used tools to
solve problems. i.e. how do I kill that Mastodon better then with my
bare-hands? etc. A computer playing Go against a human is just really
playing against the collective knowledge & abilities of humans to that point
in time. It was humans who built the computer and wrote the software.
If Computer-Go is improved its improvements will come from the hands & minds
of man and something is earned, our overall collective body-of-knowledge is
increased. It may not be used to re-solve that particular problem, but
perhaps other problems in the future.
Also, if you get what you pay for -- exactly what do you get when you use
Open-source software?
Steven A. Herborn
U.S. Naval Academy
Advanced Research Computing
410-293-6480 (Desk)
757-418-0505 (Cell)
-----Original Message-----
From: beowulf-bounces at beowulf.org [mailto:beowulf-bounces at beowulf.org] On
Behalf Of Vincent Diepeveen
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 5:06 PM
To: Peter St. John
Cc: Beowulf Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
Ken Thompson, with all respect forgets to mention something, that's that
there is nothing to earn with computer-go.
You get what you pay for.
Sometimes someone starts a go program first, in order to figure out the
above later. Instantly work stops then and worlds strongest go program no
longer gets maintained, let alone gets improved.
A few hobbyists will continue and progress very slowly as a result now at
clusters, using worlds most inefficient search that exists in game tree
search.
They didn't
discover even yet how to use efficiently hashtables (which reduces the
search space exponential).
In short zero Einstein's in computer-go so far on the search front, whereas
the hardware they can get their hands on for computer-go is big, and there
is a lot possible in computer-go, forward pruning and selectivity works
better there than in chess (to say polite). Hopefully a Chinese Einstein one
day for computer-go search algorithms.
They already found a lot that works for computer-chess.
For super selective search however you definitely need a few clever guys.
It is interesting how you try to grab attention for a game where the
strongest current commercial go-program sold less copies than that past 24
hours there was posts on this mailing list.
Thanks,
Vincent
On Mar 18, 2009, at 2:56 PM, Peter St. John wrote:
> This article at Wired is about Go playing computers: http://
> blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/gobrain.html
> Includes a pic of a 24 node cluster at Santa Cruz, and a YouTube video
> of a famous game set to music :-)
>
> My beef, which started with Ken Thompson saying he was disappointed by
> how little we learned about human cognition from chess computers, is
> about statements like this:
>
> "People hoped that if we had a strong Go program, it would teach us
> how our minds work. But that's not the case," said Bob Hearn, a
> Dartmouth College artificial intelligence programmer. "We just threw
> brute force at a program we thought required intellect."
>
> And yet the article points out:
>
> [our brain is an]...efficiently configured biological processor -
> sporting 1015 neural connections, capable of 1016 calculations per
> second
>
> Our brains do brute-force massively distributed computing. We just
> aren't conscious of most of it.
>
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org To change your subscription
> (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
> http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
_______________________________________________
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From hahn at mcmaster.ca Thu Mar 19 12:34:39 2009
From: hahn at mcmaster.ca (Mark Hahn)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:34:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] running hot?
Message-ID:
are you running your machinerooms warm to save power on cooling?
if so, could you pass on anything you learned about, for instance,
whether this degrades the lifespan of components? I guess the
first issue is how to ensure that any thermostatic fans in the nodes
don't freak out. can this be done using ACPI? I suppose it depends
on what controls the bios exposes (our HP DL's don't appear to offer
much control.) I'm also very interested to know whether you have
hard data on how much power/money this saves. anyone omitting chillers
entirely and using filtered outside air?
thanks, mark hahn.
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From eugen at leitl.org Thu Mar 19 13:36:08 2009
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:36:08 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] running hot?
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <20090319173608.GD11917@leitl.org>
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:34:39PM -0400, Mark Hahn wrote:
> are you running your machinerooms warm to save power on cooling?
Speaking about warm: http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2009/03/19/rackable-cloudrack-turns-up-the-heat/
Rackable CloudRack Turns Up The Heat
March 19th, 2009 : Rich Miller
The server trays from the CloudRack C2 enclosure from Rackable have no on-board fans and power supplies.
The server trays from the CloudRack C2 have no on-board fans or power supplies.
Are you ready for the 100-degree data center? Rackable Systems has introduced a new version of its CloudRack enclosure that it says can operate in environments as hot as 104 degrees, offering customers the option of saving energy costs by raising the temperature in their data center. The new CloudRack C2 is Rackable?s latest effort to combine higher density and lower power usage by shifting components out of the server tray and into the enclosure.
The C2 introduces cabinet-level power distribution technology, using rectifiers to convert AC power to 12V DC power. This innovation, combined with the cabinet-level fans introduced in the initial CloudRack, mean that the server trays contain no fans or power supplies. Rackable says the CloudRack fans and rectifiers equate to an N+1 redundancy.
Rackable says the design innovations will allow data center operators to safely run server-packed CloudRacks at temperatures up to 40 degrees C, or 104 degrees Fahrenheit. Most data centers operate in a temperature range between 68 and 74 degrees, and some are as cold as 55 degrees.
?The CloudRack C2 is a landmark achievement,? said Mark Barrenechea, president and CEO of Rackable Systems (RACK). ?Most notably, it solves the problem of stranded power. Data centers can now also reduce power consumption by simply turning up the thermostat while using CloudRack C2. It is the most energy-efficient and thermally-intelligent cabinet technology Rackable has ever offered.?
The first CloudRack design introduced last fall featured two to four large fans in the rear of the enclosure. The C2 goes with a denser configuration of 18 smaller fans in the rear of the 23U half-rack, with 42 fans cooling the 46U full rack. Rackable says this can support up to 1,280 cores per cabinet using the company?s MicroSlice servers.
Raising the baseline temperature inside the data center - known as a set point - can save money spent on air conditioning. Data center managers can save 4 percent in energy costs for every degree of upward change in the set point.
Google and Intel have encouraged data center engineers to consider raising their set point as a way to improve energy efficiency, while HP and Sun Microsystems have made higher temperatures a focus of their data center efficiency services.
In January the American Society for Heating, Refrigerating and Air-conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE) expanded its recommendations for ambient data center temperatures, raising its recommended upper limit from 77 degrees to 80.6 degrees.
Some data center managers warn that running equipment near the high end of the manufacturers? suggested range for equipment could void warranties with equipment vendors. Another major concern is what happens in the event of a cooling failure, when a lower set point could buy a few additional minutes of recovery time before the room heat reaches unacceptable levels.
Running your data center warmer also raises the potential for ?hot spots? to form in areas where cooling airflow doesn?t reach an entire rack. That?s why it?s a good idea to implement advanced monitoring of rack temperatures and data center airflow before nudging the set point higher. But the focus on temperature and energy efficiency is unlikely to abate.
?Energy has become a central design point for the data center,? said Jed Scaramella, senior research analyst, Datacenters, IDC. ?The density, power and thermal efficiencies Rackable achieves with CloudRack C2 enable customers to drive meaningful performance gains, while at the same time helping to reduce overall data center operating expenses.?
--
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______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
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From mathog at caltech.edu Thu Mar 19 15:13:28 2009
From: mathog at caltech.edu (David Mathog)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:13:28 -0700
Subject: [Beowulf] Re:running hot?
Message-ID:
Mark Hahn wrote:
> are you running your machinerooms warm to save power on cooling?
How much would that really save? Is there a study somewhere
demonstrating substantial power savings?
Whatever the steady state temperature in the room the AC still has to
pump out heat at the same rate it is generated. Raising the room
temperature could affect heat exchange slightly because of a
steeper/shallower T gradient across the walls/floor/ceiling. For
instance, increasing RT would let a little more power drain out through
the walls instead of the AC, assuming it is cooler outside than inside.
Does a PC doing the same work uses more or less power at 70 or 80 degrees?
Off the top of my head I wouldn't expect a huge change in either number
for a 10 degree RT change. Maybe it makes a big difference if the
machine room is very poorly insulated.
Regards,
David Mathog
mathog at caltech.edu
Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech
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From bill at cse.ucdavis.edu Thu Mar 19 15:39:26 2009
From: bill at cse.ucdavis.edu (Bill Broadley)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:39:26 -0700
Subject: [Beowulf] Re:running hot?
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <49C29F6E.3020305@cse.ucdavis.edu>
David Mathog wrote:
> Mark Hahn wrote:
>
>> are you running your machinerooms warm to save power on cooling?
>
> How much would that really save? Is there a study somewhere
> demonstrating substantial power savings?
There's a data center going in the bay area and with a few concession from
vendors they were able to rise the standard temperature enough so they will be
able to run their cooling approximately 100 hours a year.
> Whatever the steady state temperature in the room the AC still has to
> pump out heat at the same rate it is generated.
Exactly right.
> Raising the room
> temperature could affect heat exchange slightly because of a
> steeper/shallower T gradient across the walls/floor/ceiling. For
> instance, increasing RT would let a little more power drain out through
> the walls instead of the AC, assuming it is cooler outside than inside.
>
> Does a PC doing the same work uses more or less power at 70 or 80 degrees?
Don't forget to factor in the ambient temp. Say it's 70F, it's much easier to
extract useful cooling from 70F air if your internal temperature is 100F
instead of 80F.
> Off the top of my head I wouldn't expect a huge change in either number
> for a 10 degree RT change. Maybe it makes a big difference if the
> machine room is very poorly insulated.
Sounds like you are assuming a mostly closed system, it's not.
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From hahn at mcmaster.ca Thu Mar 19 15:51:04 2009
From: hahn at mcmaster.ca (Mark Hahn)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:51:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] Re:running hot?
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
>> are you running your machinerooms warm to save power on cooling?
>
> How much would that really save? Is there a study somewhere
> demonstrating substantial power savings?
yes, that's unclear to me as well. I've heard people in the
machineroom infrastructure biz claim that 25% of your power
goes to cooling. that seems like a lot to me
we have a number of 30T Liebert chillers: 3-phase 575V total
required fuse is 80A. but we don't run the humidifier (11.6A)
and rarely the reheat (30.1A). fan is 11A (10 HP) and each
compressor is 20.5A. these numbers are all taken from the
electrical sticker inside the unit, and must represent peak.
I had an electrician measure currents on the feed, and IIRC,
the number was cycling between 24 and 40A depending on whether
the unit was at 50% or 100% cooling. (that makes some sense:
8A fan, 16A/compressor.) I don't know offhand how to convert
40A 3phase 575V into KW power, though - is there a sqrt(3) in there?
30T extracts 105.5KW, though.
> Whatever the steady state temperature in the room the AC still has to
> pump out heat at the same rate it is generated. Raising the room
> temperature could affect heat exchange slightly because of a
> steeper/shallower T gradient across the walls/floor/ceiling. For
sure - I'm assuming no heat flux through walls/floor/etc. but if the
setpoint is close to outside, won't the HVAC do less work and consume
less power? the ultimate temptation is to dispense with HVAC entirely
and use filtered outside air.
I guess there are two components: the heat-pump efficiency and the
delta-t (setpoint vs outside). I agree that the former won't care about
fiddling the setpoint; power dissipated that way may dominate.
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From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Thu Mar 19 17:17:23 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:17:23 -0700
Subject: [Beowulf] Re:running hot?
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
On 3/19/09 12:13 PM, "David Mathog" wrote:
> Mark Hahn wrote:
>
>> are you running your machinerooms warm to save power on cooling?
>
> How much would that really save? Is there a study somewhere
> demonstrating substantial power savings?
>
> Whatever the steady state temperature in the room the AC still has to
> pump out heat at the same rate it is generated. Raising the room
> temperature could affect heat exchange slightly because of a
> steeper/shallower T gradient across the walls/floor/ceiling. For
> instance, increasing RT would let a little more power drain out through
> the walls instead of the AC, assuming it is cooler outside than inside.
The efficiency of a heat pump changes a lot as the differential temperature
changes. COP = Qc/Work (Qc total heat pulled out of cold side, W work done
to do it, Qh = Qc+W, of course)
Carnot says COP<= Tc/(Th-Tc), so the closer Th and Tc are, the higher the
"best" COP can be
This is true in practice as well as theory. There's a certain "base" power
consumption and a part that's dependent on the delta T.
EER is the BTU/Hr per Watt assuming the condenser is at 95F (lots of good
British units there..). EER/3.413 = COP.
The SEER is calculated using a seasonal pattern of condenser temps.. And
will always be higher than the EER.
A typical EER might be 10-12, corresponding to a COP of around 3. That is,
to remove a 100kW heat load from your machine room will take 30kW.
Home AC is usually in the SEER around 13 or higher range (13 is the lowest
you can sell today, in the US), but industrial systems can do much better
(but probably not 2 or 3 times better): Variable compressor speeds and
variable fan speeds are two ways to get there.
> Does a PC doing the same work uses more or less power at 70 or 80 degrees?
Probably not a big difference. The resistance of the wiring and components
goes up as the temperature goes up, but it's a small effect (ppm sort of
scale) and there's enough other things happening that it would be hard to
predict.
>
> Off the top of my head I wouldn't expect a huge change in either number
> for a 10 degree RT change. Maybe it makes a big difference if the
> machine room is very poorly insulated.
It could make a pretty large difference, especially if your room temp is
close to outside temp, because the denominator of that COP fraction is
small, so COP changes fast. Going from a delta T of 10 to 5 could double
the COP, halving the energy required to pump the same amount of heat.
Jim
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From dnlombar at ichips.intel.com Thu Mar 19 19:08:20 2009
From: dnlombar at ichips.intel.com (David N. Lombard)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:08:20 -0700
Subject: [Beowulf] running hot?
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <20090319230820.GA8509@nlxdcldnl2.cl.intel.com>
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 09:34:39AM -0700, Mark Hahn wrote:
> are you running your machinerooms warm to save power on cooling?
>
Here's a relevant paper at IEEE:
--
David N. Lombard, Intel, Irvine, CA
I do not speak for Intel Corporation; all comments are strictly my own.
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From diep at xs4all.nl Thu Mar 19 21:30:24 2009
From: diep at xs4all.nl (Vincent Diepeveen)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 02:30:24 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To: <78341.46286.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <78341.46286.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID:
On Mar 19, 2009, at 1:47 AM, Ellis Wilson wrote:
>
> Peter St. John wrote:
>> This article at Wired is about Go playing computers:
>> http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/gobrain.html
>> Includes a pic of a 24 node cluster at Santa Cruz, and a YouTube
>> video of a
>> famous game set to music :-)
>>
>> My beef, which started with Ken Thompson saying he was
>> disappointed by how
>> little we learned about human cognition from chess computers, is
>> about
>> statements like this:
>>
>> "People hoped that if we had a strong Go program, it would teach
>> us how our
>> minds work. But that's not the case," said Bob
>> Hearn,
>> a Dartmouth College artificial intelligence programmer. "We just
>> threw brute
>> force at a program we thought required intellect."
>>
>> And yet the article points out:
>>
>> [our brain is an]...efficiently configured biological processor ?
>> sporting
>> 1015 neural connections, capable of 1016 calculations per second
>>
>> Our brains do brute-force massively distributed computing. We just
>> aren't
>> conscious of most of it.
>>
>> Peter
>
> Peter,
>
> I would agree with Ken in that it is a disappointing and ultimately
> fruitless process to attempt to learn about human cognition by
> building
> a program to emulate some very specific activity of human beings.
> This
> line of thought, in its purest sense, is reductionism. While I do
> find
> artificial intelligence to be very interesting, I believe at some
> point
> or another we will have to recognize that the brain (and our
> subsequent
> existence) is something more than the result of the perceivable atoms
> therein. No viewpoint is completely objective as long as we are
> finite
> human-beings and occupy a place in the world we perceive.
>
Well to avoid to have too much of a discussion on artificial
intelligence
on a beowulf mailing list, as subjects in this range seems to pop up
a lot, being one of worlds leading experts here, let's drop my 2 cents.
First of all it is my impression that too much gets written about
Artificial Intelligence
by people who just base themselves upon literature and especially
their wildest dreams.
A big problem of 99.99% of all publications being just wet dreams
from professors
and researchers and PHD thesis is that the field hardly progresses in
the public
sector.
This is what you typically see. If someone writes about how to
approach in
software the human brain, without EVER having written 1 line of code,
it is of course wishful thinking that the field EVER progresses.
Seriously 99.99 of all researches, sometimes bigtime funded, are like
that.
Some of them, usually students, go a step further already and write
software.
Yet again they usually are stubborn as hell and are just redoing each
others
experiment in a zillion different incarnations.
With respect to 'learning' in chess, like 99.99% of all attempts you can
by means of deduction prove that they basically optimize a simple piece
square table. Really it is that bad. It is really 100k+ researches
and nearly
all of them are in fact a very INEFFICIENT form of parameter
optimization.
This is why the field gets dominated by low level coders, sometimes,
especially past few years, mathematical creative types.
They manage to write something using KISS principles, but most of
them have
commercial goals and achievement goals in mind, very few of them have
pure
scientific goals in mind. This last for a simple reason; just like
physicists it takes
like 10 years to get some expertise in the field, even for the best,
by the time then
that they understand what happens there, they already have a job or
work for some
sort of organisation, and publication of papers is not their intention.
Then what is there?
Well basically the research done, vaste majority with respect to how
the brain works,
has been done in big secrecy.
They do progress from biological viewpoint: "how does the brain work".
Though majority doesn't say a word there of course, the few "public
words" i exchange
with researchers who examine brains (quite litterary using MRI type
scanners and
such stuff) they definitely claim a lot of progress.
What gets said there makes sense.
Much larger field is of course the military type experiments. Now i
directly want to
mention that i find these experiments disgusting, revolting and in
vaste majority of
cases total unnecessary.
The experiments involve monkeys. They all die. Experiments with
brains is the most
disgusting form of experiments to animals.
I was in Ramat-Gan a few years ago. In the Bar-Ilan research center.
Greenpeace had some demonstrations there for a while, but after some
time they left.
They should not have...
What the many military organisations do for type of experiments,
probably even at humans there,
well you can safely assume, they get done.
Sometimes you see a discovery channel episode from the 50s. If they
did do it back then, they sure
do now. Brain manipulation attempts i'd call them.
That's quite different to what i and many others try to do in
software. That's APPROACHING the human
brain.
Now from the 70s and 80s of course there is already some primitive
software there which just gets expanded
for medical world; giving a diagnosis based upon guidelines
programmed in the database.
yet that is quite a collection of small knowledge rules.
The big difference with a chess evaluation function, not to confuse
with the search part which makes moves
in algorithmic and nowadays massive parallel manner, the evaluation
function is one big complex whole.
In my case i really wrote worlds largest and most complex evaluation
function for the game of chess. When the years
progress you get more insight in what is important there. You
conclude then for specific things quit interesting phenomena's.
Such as that certain form of knowledg needs to get corrected with
quite complex functions. In complex manners an
indexatoin takes place to get information patterns from a position.
Using these patterns, with n-th order logic you then
create new "overview" functions, just like a human is doing it.
That is highly effective.
Yet there is another aspect where mankind seems to be really
superior. It is exactly what Jaap van den Herik has been
claiming already years ago, that is the relative weight you give to
patterns.
Being a titled chessplayer, of course i "estimate" myself first what
it probably is for my program. You toy some and draw
a conclusion.
These parameter optimizations are not lineair programming
optimizations. They are quite complex. In fact no good algorithms
are there yet to get it done, as the number of parameters is too much
(far over 10000). You can't independantly pick a value
for a parameter and/or pin it down to a value, and then try to tune
the other parameters. It's getting done that way, but it never
resulted in a real objective great parameter tuning.
A lot of progress gets booked here. Though of course the pure tuning
in itself is less relevant than the bugfixing which is
a result of it, scientifically seen a lot of experiments are possible
there. I'm busy carrying out a plan there which will probably
take years. The actual optimization i intend to run on some tens of
thousands of cores alltogether. I found some manners to
increase tuning speed. Note this is total scientific project, there
is no direct 'benefit' for it in terms of elorating of the chess engine.
So where scientifically it will look great maybe, most computerchess
programmers will ignore it.
For the parameter tuning world it is very relevant however, as only
past few years some progress gets booked here.
Yet the combination of the 2 things (lot of chess domain knowledge
and accurate tuning),
makes the chess engines a lot more human. Especially the tuning, as
majority really doesn't have a very big
evaluation function.
Yet one shouldn't mistake itself that sometimes very big lookup
tables can replace a lot of knowledge rules.
For todays processors those tables are faster though than evaluating
all that code. You can in short precalculate them.
A lookup from L1 usually and sometimes L2, is on average at most a
few cycles, in most cases even the full latency
gets prefetched and hidden full automatic by L1. That's great of
todays processors.
So it looks bloody fast, the theory behind it is not so simple
though. As you might see just that seemingly simple lookup
table inside the code that is quickly searching at millions of
chesspositions a second, in reality it replaces a lot of code.
Of course combined with the deep searches they do nowadays, it plays
really strong. But that was the case end of 90s
also.
Yet there is still a lot possible there. The future will tell.
In todays computerchess, when not cut'n pasting existing codes,
making your 'own' chess engine, it is really complicated
to reach the top soon, as it takes 10 years to build a strong engine
if you didn't make one before. So very few start that challenge
nowadays, which of course hurts the field bigtime now.
In 80s and 90s it was still possible, without being algorithmic
strong, to have some sort of impact in the field being a good low level
programmer (say in assembler). That's sheer impossible nowadays.
In the long run i intend to publish something there, but i'm not 100%
sure yet.
A lot have tried climbing the Olympus and very few managed to reach
the top.
Let's put it this manner, i see possibilities, which i discussed with
others already (and they find it a great idea),
to do parameter tuning in a generic human manner, yet all this
extreme experimental attempts are only possible thanks
to todays huge crunching power.
Don't forget that.
In 90s most attempts there were always typically having such little
calculation power, that the number of experiments done,
already was so insignificant, that even worlds most brilliant
tuningsalgorithm would have failed, as never statistical sureness was
used to be sure that a new tuning of the parameters would work.
Most "automatic learning" attempts trying to approach the human
manner of learning, like TD learning (temporal difference learning),
they already undertake action after 1 single game. That's of course
way too little datapoints. Then the question is how human something is,
if it basically randomly flips a few parameters.
That is IMHO a very weak manner of tuning which expressed in big O,
is exponential to the number of parameters, if you're feeling so lucky,
that is, to win the lotto anyway one day in your life.
Yet the bottom line is that todays huge number crunching solutions,
such as gpgpu, with all its many cores, gives huge possibilities here,
to really do a lot of experiments. In such case it is worth trying to
tune thousands of parameters, which some years ago was just total
impossible.
There was just too little crunching power for artificial intelligence
to let clever algorithms have an impact.
To quote someone, Frans Morsch (won in 1995 world championship,
beating for example deep blue),
"One simply doesn't have the system time for sophisticated
algorithmic tricks last few plies,
when each node is far under 1000 clock cycles of the cpu".
So where it is true that most money incentives have gone away out of
computerchess, the clever guys are still there and/or help others
brainstorm
with ideas what to try and how to progress, and the increase in
computing power gives rise to new algorithmic and tuning
possibilities to approach
the human mind in manners that is real simple.
Because after all, let's be realistic. If computers can't perfectly
play the game of chess using sophisticated chessknowledge (so i do
not mean
having a database with 10^43 possibilities), how is an artificial
intelligent program EVER going to drive a car from your home to a
destination
in a safe manner.
In that computerchess will be a major contributor, simply because it
is public what happens there. Maybe researchers are not very talkative,
but you CAN speak to them if you want to and you DO see the progress
they book.
Vincent
> To say that all simulation of some portion of our thoughts is
> fruitless
> is incorrect, as I think some insight into the mind is possible
> through
> codifying thought. However, there exist far to many catch-22's and
> logical fallacies in using the mind to understand the mind to ever
> fully
> understand how it works from a scientific point of view. Philosophy
> will at some point have to step in to explain the (possibly huge) gaps
> between even the future's fastest simulated brains and our own.
>
> In a book by Thamas Nagel, "The View from Nowhere" I believe he
> puts it
> most poignantly by stating, "Eventually, I believe, current
> attempts to
> understand the mind by analogy with man-made computers that can
> perform
> superbly some of the same external tasks as conscious beings will be
> recognized as a gigantic waste of time". This was written over twenty
> years ago. Science has given us tools to make our lives wonderfully
> easier and thereby has proven to be useful, but it answers none of the
> multitude of mind-body dilemmas, validates the reality of our
> perception, nor will it or any other reductionist theory provide
> insight
> into the much more complex areas of cognition. This is especially
> true
> with the discovery of quantum mechanics, which makes the observer's
> subjective perception absolutely necessary. Full objectivity (or in
> this application full codification of human thought) just isn't
> possible.
>
> I wish it weren't so, for by study I am a computer scientist and by
> hobby philosopher, however, at present I remain skeptical.
>
> Ellis Wilson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
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>
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From marcelosoaressouza at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 07:51:14 2009
From: marcelosoaressouza at gmail.com (Marcelo Souza)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 08:51:14 -0300
Subject: [Beowulf] MPICH2 1.0.8 x86_64 (amd64) Package for Debian 5.0 (Lenny)
Message-ID: <12c9ca330903200451i56f8281apc50aa94d2d53e100@mail.gmail.com>
http://www.cebacad.net/files/mpich2_1.0.8_amd64.deb
http://www.cebacad.net/files/mpich2_1.0.8_amd64.deb.md5
--
Marcelo Soares Souza
http://marcelo.cebacad.net
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From marcelosoaressouza at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 07:53:14 2009
From: marcelosoaressouza at gmail.com (Marcelo Souza)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 08:53:14 -0300
Subject: [Beowulf] OpenMPI 1.3.1 x86_64 (amd64) Package for Debian 5.0
(Lenny)
Message-ID: <12c9ca330903200453t658a47abya494e2a87b60aa01@mail.gmail.com>
http://www.cebacad.net/files/openmpi_1.3.1_amd64.deb
http://www.cebacad.net/files/openmpi_1.3.1_amd64.deb.md5
--
Marcelo Soares Souza
http://marcelo.cebacad.net
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From dnlombar at ichips.intel.com Fri Mar 20 09:36:39 2009
From: dnlombar at ichips.intel.com (David N. Lombard)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 06:36:39 -0700
Subject: [Beowulf] running hot?
In-Reply-To: <20090319230820.GA8509@nlxdcldnl2.cl.intel.com>
References:
<20090319230820.GA8509@nlxdcldnl2.cl.intel.com>
Message-ID: <20090320133639.GB8509@nlxdcldnl2.cl.intel.com>
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 04:08:20PM -0700, David N. Lombard wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 09:34:39AM -0700, Mark Hahn wrote:
> > are you running your machinerooms warm to save power on cooling?
> >
> Here's a relevant paper at IEEE:
>
Also this:
--
David N. Lombard, Intel, Irvine, CA
I do not speak for Intel Corporation; all comments are strictly my own.
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From deadline at eadline.org Mon Mar 23 14:58:27 2009
From: deadline at eadline.org (Douglas Eadline)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 14:58:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To:
References:
<97AFFFED-8A62-42D8-952A-610FAA092D61@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <40680.192.168.1.213.1237834707.squirrel@mail.eadline.org>
>
> Also, if you get what you pay for -- exactly what do you get when you use
> Open-source software?
>
Interesting question. How do you define "pay" ?
--
Doug
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From chiendarret at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 05:22:28 2009
From: chiendarret at gmail.com (Francesco Pietra)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:22:28 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] ssh connection passwordless
Message-ID:
HI:
I have a computing machine and a desktop ssh passwordless
interconnected through a Zyxel router (which is dhpc on Internet). I
have now added a second computing machine. I am unable to get all
three machines passwordless interconnected at the same time. Just only
two. If I want to have the third computer passwordless connected to
one of the other two, I have to exchange id_rsa.pub between the two
again. Mistake or intrinsic feature of ssh?
What I did:
(1)generating the keys with "ssh-keygen -t rsa"
(2) getting "reserved" the machines on the router
(3)scp id_rsa.pub to the "authorized_keys"
It is also mandatory that asking the "date" to the other computer
(slogin ... date), the date is given without asking the password. That
is an issue of a computational code that for its internal
parallelization needs that (I have not investigated why).
thanks
francesco
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From reuti at staff.uni-marburg.de Tue Mar 24 06:29:40 2009
From: reuti at staff.uni-marburg.de (Reuti)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:29:40 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] ssh connection passwordless
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
Hi,
Am 19.03.2009 um 10:22 schrieb Francesco Pietra:
> I have a computing machine and a desktop ssh passwordless
> interconnected through a Zyxel router (which is dhpc on Internet). I
> have now added a second computing machine. I am unable to get all
> three machines passwordless interconnected at the same time. Just only
> two. If I want to have the third computer passwordless connected to
> one of the other two, I have to exchange id_rsa.pub between the two
> again. Mistake or intrinsic feature of ssh?
>
> What I did:
>
> (1)generating the keys with "ssh-keygen -t rsa"
>
> (2) getting "reserved" the machines on the router
>
> (3)scp id_rsa.pub to the "authorized_keys"
- you can have more than one line in the authorized keys file, hence
put there the id_rsa.pub from all other nodes in addition.
- when you need this only for interactive work, you can have a local
ss-agent running on your desktop and put in ~/.ssh/config and on both
node a two lines:
Host *
ForwardAgent yes"
good explanation you can find here: http://unixwiz.net/techtips/ssh-
agent-forwarding.html
- another option might be to setup /etc/ssh/ssh_known_hosts on your
two compurte nodes to include per line the short hostname, the FQDN,
the TCP-IP address besides the other hosts ssh keys (not the user's
one) as this would avoid any password or adding of the machines to
you personal ~/.ssh/known_hosts file. This won't work with your
workstation of course as it's TCP/IP address varies.
-- Reuti
> It is also mandatory that asking the "date" to the other computer
> (slogin ... date), the date is given without asking the password. That
> is an issue of a computational code that for its internal
> parallelization needs that (I have not investigated why).
>
> thanks
>
> francesco
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
> http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
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From diep at xs4all.nl Tue Mar 24 07:41:30 2009
From: diep at xs4all.nl (Vincent Diepeveen)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:41:30 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To: <40680.192.168.1.213.1237834707.squirrel@mail.eadline.org>
References:
<97AFFFED-8A62-42D8-952A-610FAA092D61@xs4all.nl>
<40680.192.168.1.213.1237834707.squirrel@mail.eadline.org>
Message-ID:
You pay a fulltime sysadmin to solve your problems in that case :)
pay as in 'salary pay'.
Though i'm very positive about for example Sun's open office,
and open source in general,
it's quite clumsy to use practical for simple things like printing
name labels
to stick on envelopes ('etiketten' we call 'em).
If experienced IT guys don't manage within 1 day to get something
like that done with it,
for sure office personnel with less of an experience there will fail.
Then additional the
documentation totally fails there.
Now i won't bother you with the fact that i have an apple macbookpro
laptop with
open-office for it, and that despite hours of googling, it just
doesn't work.
Good old win2000 + old word version had to solve it.
In short open source can work only if you have experienced Linux guys
who make ready
whatever you need on it, and if the functionality you need is
sufficient and documented.
This usually is the case for the top1000 companies.
Netherlands has about 1021 (roughly) companies of 1000+ personnel,
not to mention
governments. For these open source is a possibility.
Not for the majority of users and companies.
Clusters and Beowulf type systems are definitely the exception here;
for them modifying that kernel
and a security that only allows intelligence agencies to enter and no
one else, is important.
On Mar 23, 2009, at 7:58 PM, Douglas Eadline wrote:
>
>>
>> Also, if you get what you pay for -- exactly what do you get when
>> you use
>> Open-source software?
>>
>
> Interesting question. How do you define "pay" ?
>
>
>
> --
> Doug
>
> --
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From gerry.creager at tamu.edu Tue Mar 24 10:32:19 2009
From: gerry.creager at tamu.edu (Gerry Creager)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:32:19 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To:
References: <97AFFFED-8A62-42D8-952A-610FAA092D61@xs4all.nl> <40680.192.168.1.213.1237834707.squirrel@mail.eadline.org>
Message-ID: <49C8EEF3.2000206@tamu.edu>
I'm not even sure why I'm entering into this...
Vincent, I use OpenOffice on a daily basis, interact with Windows users
w/ Word, and have no problems. I do considerably more than printing
labels, too. We trade documents and spreadsheets back and forth, in
support of my projects.
The only application I've seen trouble with was a document created using
Office (not OpenOffice) for the Mac, by a user who sent the result out
in RTF. I'm not sure what he did but I couldn't process it in MS Office
on *my* iMac at the office, nor on OpenOffice on the iMac, my laptop,
nor my home systems.
My family uses OpenOffice, including my kids for whom "Office" is a
school requirement. They have no problems, and their teachers see no
difference. My wife is not an IT professional (she delivers babies as a
midwife) and her frustration with Office is greater than with OpenOffice.
If you don't like open-source solutions, fine, but why don't you stop
trying to convince a reasonably large group of reasonably intelligent
folk to follow your lead?
gc
Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
> You pay a fulltime sysadmin to solve your problems in that case :)
>
> pay as in 'salary pay'.
>
> Though i'm very positive about for example Sun's open office,
> and open source in general,
> it's quite clumsy to use practical for simple things like printing name
> labels
> to stick on envelopes ('etiketten' we call 'em).
>
> If experienced IT guys don't manage within 1 day to get something like
> that done with it,
> for sure office personnel with less of an experience there will fail.
> Then additional the
> documentation totally fails there.
>
> Now i won't bother you with the fact that i have an apple macbookpro
> laptop with
> open-office for it, and that despite hours of googling, it just doesn't
> work.
>
> Good old win2000 + old word version had to solve it.
>
> In short open source can work only if you have experienced Linux guys
> who make ready
> whatever you need on it, and if the functionality you need is sufficient
> and documented.
>
> This usually is the case for the top1000 companies.
>
> Netherlands has about 1021 (roughly) companies of 1000+ personnel, not
> to mention
> governments. For these open source is a possibility.
>
> Not for the majority of users and companies.
>
> Clusters and Beowulf type systems are definitely the exception here; for
> them modifying that kernel
> and a security that only allows intelligence agencies to enter and no
> one else, is important.
>
> On Mar 23, 2009, at 7:58 PM, Douglas Eadline wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>>> Also, if you get what you pay for -- exactly what do you get when you
>>> use
>>> Open-source software?
>>>
>>
>> Interesting question. How do you define "pay" ?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Doug
>>
>> --
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From landman at scalableinformatics.com Tue Mar 24 11:02:47 2009
From: landman at scalableinformatics.com (Joe Landman)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:02:47 -0400
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To: <49C8EEF3.2000206@tamu.edu>
References: <97AFFFED-8A62-42D8-952A-610FAA092D61@xs4all.nl> <40680.192.168.1.213.1237834707.squirrel@mail.eadline.org>
<49C8EEF3.2000206@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <49C8F617.6070904@scalableinformatics.com>
Gerry Creager wrote:
> I'm not even sure why I'm entering into this...
>
> Vincent, I use OpenOffice on a daily basis, interact with Windows users
> w/ Word, and have no problems. I do considerably more than printing
> labels, too. We trade documents and spreadsheets back and forth, in
> support of my projects.
>
> The only application I've seen trouble with was a document created using
> Office (not OpenOffice) for the Mac, by a user who sent the result out
We too use OOo for pretty much everything. Though when we get documents
from outside, in many cases they are OfficeXXXX where XXXX is some
number (2000, 2003, 2007). Invariably some formatting gets lost in the
conversion process. Annoying but it happens.
I should note also that formatting gets lost converting from 2000 to
2003 to 2007. Its not an OOo feature ... it is a problem with format
conversion ... and the economic self interest of one organization to get
everyone to run their latest and greatest
(Hey Microsoft ... if you actually would release an Office for Linux,
more than a few people might, I dunno ... buy it? I would)
--
Joseph Landman, Ph.D
Founder and CEO
Scalable Informatics LLC,
email: landman at scalableinformatics.com
web : http://www.scalableinformatics.com
http://jackrabbit.scalableinformatics.com
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From xclski at yahoo.com Tue Mar 24 12:06:38 2009
From: xclski at yahoo.com (Ellis Wilson)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:06:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
Message-ID: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
> If experienced IT guys don't manage within 1 day to get something like
> that done with it,
> for sure office personnel with less of an experience there will fail.
> Then additional the
> documentation totally fails there.
Actually, I would be inclined to think that office personnel are MORE
capable for this type of task than "IT guys". Not only will they have
spent a vast majority of their day working with all types of word
processing software, they would be in their position less single-minded
about one particular brand of software and thereby more open-minded in
their approach.
I can't tell you the number of times I've battled with "IT guys" who
have severe prejudices against things that in fact they don't know about
because they are too lazy to experiment with different solutions to the
same problem.
Ellis
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From diep at xs4all.nl Tue Mar 24 16:28:55 2009
From: diep at xs4all.nl (Vincent Diepeveen)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:28:55 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl>
I'm not sure what environment you guys are working,
but the average IQ100 office personnel is a lot more clumsy than
you guys can imagine.
In general of course if someone sucks in everything, he or she still
can go work
for a bank.
Though nowadays i shouldn't say that too loud either it seems :)
Bad paid and simple work. Not so long ago i saw 'em still use at one
bank OS-2 from IBM as client :)
Most posters here are so far away from normal world that they have no
clue about 99.99% of workfloor.
Mistake 1 they make is retry the same thing 100 times. Those posting
here for sure will
try each time something else until they figure it out.
At best you can say that open source is progressing. It's far from
usable.
Then we had some workable x-windows type GUI, suddenly it was kicked
out and replaced by
big crap called x.org. Eating huge RAM and ugly slow. Doesn't even
run well at a tad older machines
with a bit less RAM.
So in order to run open-office latest versions, you also need an
expensive new machine. That's another
weird phenomena.
Vincent
On Mar 24, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Ellis Wilson wrote:
>
> Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>> If experienced IT guys don't manage within 1 day to get something
>> like
>> that done with it,
>> for sure office personnel with less of an experience there will fail.
>> Then additional the
>> documentation totally fails there.
>
> Actually, I would be inclined to think that office personnel are MORE
> capable for this type of task than "IT guys". Not only will they have
> spent a vast majority of their day working with all types of word
> processing software, they would be in their position less single-
> minded
> about one particular brand of software and thereby more open-minded in
> their approach.
>
> I can't tell you the number of times I've battled with "IT guys" who
> have severe prejudices against things that in fact they don't know
> about
> because they are too lazy to experiment with different solutions to
> the
> same problem.
>
> Ellis
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From carlossegurag at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 06:05:49 2009
From: carlossegurag at gmail.com (Carlos Segura)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:05:49 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] ssh connection passwordless
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
The step (3) is not correct, because you are deleting the old
authorized_keys.
The steps are:
(1) Generate the keys in the client: ssh-keygen -t rsa
(2) Copy the public key to the servers:
ssh-copy-id -i ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub user at server1
ssh-copy-id -i ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub user at server2
Step (2) will add id_rsa.pub to the authorized keys.
Carlos
2009/3/19 Francesco Pietra
> HI:
>
> I have a computing machine and a desktop ssh passwordless
> interconnected through a Zyxel router (which is dhpc on Internet). I
> have now added a second computing machine. I am unable to get all
> three machines passwordless interconnected at the same time. Just only
> two. If I want to have the third computer passwordless connected to
> one of the other two, I have to exchange id_rsa.pub between the two
> again. Mistake or intrinsic feature of ssh?
>
> What I did:
>
> (1)generating the keys with "ssh-keygen -t rsa"
>
> (2) getting "reserved" the machines on the router
>
> (3)scp id_rsa.pub to the "authorized_keys"
>
> It is also mandatory that asking the "date" to the other computer
> (slogin ... date), the date is given without asking the password. That
> is an issue of a computational code that for its internal
> parallelization needs that (I have not investigated why).
>
> thanks
>
> francesco
> _______________________________________________
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From polk678 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 12:28:17 2009
From: polk678 at gmail.com (gossips J)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:58:17 +0530
Subject: [Beowulf] mvapich2 does not run successfully mpi1 application
Message-ID:
Hi Folks,
I am a student and want to know about mvapich2-1.2p1.
It does not run my MPI1 application successfully. Basically it stuck
somewhere in middle of execution.
I am running this for 80 processes. I figured out that if i do set "on
demand threshold" environment settings to anything above 80 it works fine
with out any issues.
Basically what is causing this behavior?
Why test gets stuck up at some point?
How to debug this???
If anybody can provide some insight on how to handle this with mvapich2 than
it would be great.
Looking for help,
Thanks in advance,
Polk J.
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From rgb at phy.duke.edu Tue Mar 24 18:25:57 2009
From: rgb at phy.duke.edu (Robert G. Brown)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:25:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] One time password generators...
Message-ID:
Doing certain classes of work one has to satisfy e.g. banking due
diligence, which tends to be stronger than ordinary cluster due
diligence. One aspect of that security (generally required, quite
independent of whether or not it really increases security) is "strong
authentication", currently held to be multifactor authentication, e.g.
SSH keys AND a one-time password, a password AND biometrics, etc.
I've got a possible gig set up that may need this and have been
investigating the OTP devices for cost and linux capability. The cost
seems generally to be "high", and while there are a few that are
up-front linux capable, it seems to be really difficult to find a
company that will just sell you a key generator at (say) $10 a pop and
give you a matching piece of software to run on your linux server.
There are a couple of possible exceptions to pursue in addition to the
e.g. RSA-like solutions with their enormous cost, but I thought I'd
throw it out to the group here too. Is there a straightforward low-cost
way to generate OTP's without ten thousand dollar server software
packages?
rgb
Robert G. Brown http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/
Duke University Dept. of Physics, Box 90305
Durham, N.C. 27708-0305
Phone: 1-919-660-2567 Fax: 919-660-2525 email:rgb at phy.duke.edu
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From billycrook at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 18:42:21 2009
From: billycrook at gmail.com (Billy Crook)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:42:21 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] One time password generators...
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 17:25, Robert G. Brown wrote:
> Doing certain classes of work one has to satisfy e.g. banking due
> diligence, which tends to be stronger than ordinary cluster due
> diligence. ?One aspect of that security (generally required, quite
> independent of whether or not it really increases security) is "strong
> authentication", currently held to be multifactor authentication, e.g.
> SSH keys AND a one-time password, a password AND biometrics, etc.
>
> I've got a possible gig set up that may need this and have been
> investigating the OTP devices for cost and linux capability. ?The cost
> seems generally to be "high", and while there are a few that are
> up-front linux capable, it seems to be really difficult to find a
> company that will just sell you a key generator at (say) $10 a pop and
> give you a matching piece of software to run on your linux server.
>
> There are a couple of possible exceptions to pursue in addition to the
> e.g. RSA-like solutions with their enormous cost, but I thought I'd
> throw it out to the group here too. ?Is there a straightforward low-cost
> way to generate OTP's without ten thousand dollar server software
> packages?
>
> ? rgb
>
> Robert G. Brown ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/
> Duke University Dept. of Physics, Box 90305
> Durham, N.C. 27708-0305
> Phone: 1-919-660-2567 ?Fax: 919-660-2525 ? ? email:rgb at phy.duke.edu
If you want to spend as little as possible:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/otpw.html
And if your users don't like typing long random things in, but you
still want them to use one-time credentials:
http://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey/
Both can be integrated with PAM. Yubikeys go for $25 (less in
quantity). Their server side software is Free Software, hosted on
Google Code. http://code.google.com/u/simon75j/
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From rgb at phy.duke.edu Tue Mar 24 23:28:24 2009
From: rgb at phy.duke.edu (Robert G. Brown)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 23:28:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] One time password generators...
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Billy Crook wrote:
> If you want to spend as little as possible:
> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/otpw.html
Thanks, I hadn't found this one. I'll look it over.
> And if your users don't like typing long random things in, but you
> still want them to use one-time credentials:
> http://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey/
This one I had found -- it isn't exactly like the secureid thing, but it
looks like it would work in a self-sufficient way, and one can
overload/reload it with your own AES keys so that you really aren't
relying in any way on a third party for authentication.
>
> Both can be integrated with PAM. Yubikeys go for $25 (less in
> quantity). Their server side software is Free Software, hosted on
> Google Code. http://code.google.com/u/simon75j/
Have you tried either or both of them?
rgb
Robert G. Brown http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/
Duke University Dept. of Physics, Box 90305
Durham, N.C. 27708-0305
Phone: 1-919-660-2567 Fax: 919-660-2525 email:rgb at phy.duke.edu
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From billycrook at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 00:31:22 2009
From: billycrook at gmail.com (Billy Crook)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 23:31:22 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] One time password generators...
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 22:28, Robert G. Brown wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Billy Crook wrote:
>> Both can be integrated with PAM. ?Yubikeys go for $25 (less in
>> quantity). ?Their server side software is Free Software, hosted on
>> Google Code. http://code.google.com/u/simon75j/
>
> Have you tried either or both of them?
> ? rgb
I've considered the former, but I wouldn't have the patience to hand
type something unique every time, so I just keep long passphrases and
regularly change them.
As for the latter, I purchased a few yubikeys to play with a month
ago, and have personalized (re-keyed) one. Sort of... Their
GNU+Linux personalization tool has a ways to go. I worked with them
to get it to compile under 64bit distributions. While the tool will
"allow" you to choose a passphrase and random seed, it did not as of a
couple weeks ago provide any means of directly assigning an AES key.
I spoke with a developer there, and they are going to implement that
in the immediate future, along with some sort of official format for
storing key data (in databases or .ssh/authorized_yubikeys files).
They seem to have focused mostly on Windows for the programming tool
though. To program them in GNU+Linux, one must first unload the
usbhid module, or load it in a quirks mode, because the module
otherwise locks the device and it's not accessible to the
personalization tool even as root. They're working on that as well.
As of right now, their current version of the personalization tool
didn't compile.
As of yet, I've only made real use of them with their
factory-programmed keys, to authenticate to yubico's openid provider.
Other people to whom I have given some yubikeys have been using the
pam module on their servers so ssh with a one time password, with much
success. They are of course, usnig yubico to authenticate the OTPs.
I plan to check back every few weeks to watch the progress on their
Free Software tools for personalization, and eventually use mine as
additional factors of authentication for ssh and openvpn. From what I
understand they do entirely intend for users to be able to operate
completely independent from yubico without having to pay for software
licenses. They even publish their enterprisey 'yubikey management
server' for administering your user's yubikeys, pam modules, re-keying
tools, the actual authentication code, and many other things on that
Google Code page. I've not tested most of it. Your mileage may vary.
I'd like to hear what others think of these little gadgets as well.
Here's what a few from my 'demo key' look like:
ecebedeeefegeheiejekecebhvbcdiiiirfekttdkvlfhbuldbgedtlc
ecebedeeefegeheiejekecebhktreuklveuvgbhhfcrlfduvjrvinbtc
ecebedeeefegeheiejekecebcvfkvtbnhhtifgckuffffklcnjbjcbdu
-Billy
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From smulcahy at atlanticlinux.ie Wed Mar 25 02:45:23 2009
From: smulcahy at atlanticlinux.ie (stephen mulcahy)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 06:45:23 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] One time password generators...
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <49C9D303.3050000@atlanticlinux.ie>
Billy Crook wrote:
> If you want to spend as little as possible:
> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/otpw.html
This looks pretty good on paper and as a bonus (for us Debian users at
least ;) it's included in Debian Lenny and up.
I wonder has anyone done an analysis of the security of this?
-stephen
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From lynesh at cardiff.ac.uk Wed Mar 25 04:55:38 2009
From: lynesh at cardiff.ac.uk (Huw Lynes)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 08:55:38 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] any users of MyPBS accounting package?
Message-ID: <1237971338.2821.3.camel@w609.insrv.cf.ac.uk>
I'm looking at it as an interim accounting system. The page at
my-pbs.sourceforge.net looks like there hasn't been any development in
the last couple of years.
Is anyone currently using it? Does it work?
Thanks,
Huw
--
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HEC Sysadmin | Cardiff University
| Redwood Building,
Tel: +44 (0) 29208 70626 | King Edward VII Avenue, CF10 3NB
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From rgb at phy.duke.edu Wed Mar 25 07:22:11 2009
From: rgb at phy.duke.edu (Robert G. Brown)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:22:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] One time password generators...
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Billy Crook wrote:
>> Have you tried either or both of them?
>> ? rgb
>
> I've considered the former, but I wouldn't have the patience to hand
> type something unique every time, so I just keep long passphrases and
> regularly change them.
...
> Google Code page. I've not tested most of it. Your mileage may vary.
> I'd like to hear what others think of these little gadgets as well.
>
> Here's what a few from my 'demo key' look like:
> ecebedeeefegeheiejekecebhvbcdiiiirfekttdkvlfhbuldbgedtlc
> ecebedeeefegeheiejekecebhktreuklveuvgbhhfcrlfduvjrvinbtc
> ecebedeeefegeheiejekecebcvfkvtbnhhtifgckuffffklcnjbjcbdu
Well, that's more than enough to convince me to give them a trial.
They're more expensive than mypw in the short run, but general purpose
and rekeyable means a lot, and it sounds like they (at least) have a
strong commitment to the open source universe. Sure, their tool may be
windows-centric at first, but I can't blame them for that -- that's
where a good chunk of their money will come from. But the open source
community will make even better tools on their own given time and
information, and it sounds like the information required is openly
provided.
So I guess I'll visit their site again and buy one or two. Maybe I'll
see if I can get OPM^* to pay for the OTPT, heh heh...
rgb
* OPM = "Other People's Money"
>
> -Billy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
>
Robert G. Brown http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/
Duke University Dept. of Physics, Box 90305
Durham, N.C. 27708-0305
Phone: 1-919-660-2567 Fax: 919-660-2525 email:rgb at phy.duke.edu
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From Glen.Beane at jax.org Wed Mar 25 07:34:44 2009
From: Glen.Beane at jax.org (Glen Beane)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:34:44 -0400
Subject: [Beowulf] any users of MyPBS accounting package?
In-Reply-To: <1237971338.2821.3.camel@w609.insrv.cf.ac.uk>
Message-ID:
it is a dead project
I worked on it over 3 years ago, not much has happened since then. I think it works OK if you use TORQUE or some other PBS, but I would look for something else. It is no longer developed, and if I were doing it again there are definitely things I would want to do differently in some of the back end code.
-glen
On 3/25/09 4:55 AM, "Huw Lynes" wrote:
I'm looking at it as an interim accounting system. The page at
my-pbs.sourceforge.net looks like there hasn't been any development in
the last couple of years.
Is anyone currently using it? Does it work?
Thanks,
Huw
--
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HEC Sysadmin | Cardiff University
| Redwood Building,
Tel: +44 (0) 29208 70626 | King Edward VII Avenue, CF10 3NB
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From Glen.Beane at jax.org Wed Mar 25 07:45:27 2009
From: Glen.Beane at jax.org (Glen Beane)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:45:27 -0400
Subject: [Beowulf] any users of MyPBS accounting package?
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
I forgot to mention, one of the last big changes we made was remove the need for the qsub/qdel wrapper scripts and the MyPBS website is a bit outdated since it does not seem to mention that. I think this made the package a lot more usable since the wrapper scripts could be a little problematic (they broke interactive jobs).
On 3/25/09 7:34 AM, "Glen Beane gbeane" wrote:
it is a dead project
I worked on it over 3 years ago, not much has happened since then. I think it works OK if you use TORQUE or some other PBS, but I would look for something else. It is no longer developed, and if I were doing it again there are definitely things I would want to do differently in some of the back end code.
-glen
On 3/25/09 4:55 AM, "Huw Lynes" wrote:
I'm looking at it as an interim accounting system. The page at
my-pbs.sourceforge.net looks like there hasn't been any development in
the last couple of years.
Is anyone currently using it? Does it work?
Thanks,
Huw
--
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HEC Sysadmin | Cardiff University
| Redwood Building,
Tel: +44 (0) 29208 70626 | King Edward VII Avenue, CF10 3NB
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Phone (207) 288-6153
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From lynesh at cardiff.ac.uk Wed Mar 25 08:11:57 2009
From: lynesh at cardiff.ac.uk (Huw Lynes)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:11:57 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] any users of MyPBS accounting package?
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <1237983117.2821.8.camel@w609.insrv.cf.ac.uk>
On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 07:45 -0400, Glen Beane wrote:
> I forgot to mention, one of the last big changes we made was remove
> the need for the qsub/qdel wrapper scripts and the MyPBS website is a
> bit outdated since it does not seem to mention that. I think this made
> the package a lot more usable since the wrapper scripts could be a
> little problematic (they broke interactive jobs).
>
>
> On 3/25/09 7:34 AM, "Glen Beane gbeane" wrote:
>
> it is a dead project
>
> I worked on it over 3 years ago, not much has happened since
> then. I think it works OK if you use TORQUE or some other
> PBS, but I would look for something else. It is no longer
> developed, and if I were doing it again there are definitely
> things I would want to do differently in some of the back end
> code.
>
Thanks for the info Glen. I might still install it to gather stats while
I implement something better suited to our specific needs.
Thanks,
Huw
--
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HEC Sysadmin | Cardiff University
| Redwood Building,
Tel: +44 (0) 29208 70626 | King Edward VII Avenue, CF10 3NB
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From rgb at phy.duke.edu Wed Mar 25 09:25:30 2009
From: rgb at phy.duke.edu (Robert G. Brown)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 09:25:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] One time password generators...
In-Reply-To: <49C9D303.3050000@atlanticlinux.ie>
References:
<49C9D303.3050000@atlanticlinux.ie>
Message-ID:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, stephen mulcahy wrote:
> Billy Crook wrote:
>> If you want to spend as little as possible:
>> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/otpw.html
>
> This looks pretty good on paper and as a bonus (for us Debian users at least
> ;) it's included in Debian Lenny and up.
On paper is right! It requires one to carry around paper or a PDA of
some sort to literally look up a OTP.
> I wonder has anyone done an analysis of the security of this?
One problem is that I'm not sure that this meets the requirements for
two-factor security according to the due-diligence spec of e.g. a bank.
I fail to see how it is more secure than e.g. dumping /dev/random
through an ascii translator and into a file, and just working through
the file sequentially on both ends -- in fact, to me it seems to be less
secure, because it is at least partially keyed and there seems to be no
point in having a key if you're going to carry a table of shared secrets
around with you. One way or the other, one has to carry the PSK file
with you -- printed on paper, on a USB stick. Paper has the obvious
problem that you can run out of passwords. A USB stick could hold
enough to not run out, but is subject to snooping on the host you're
using to read it while logging in. All of them are subject to the
theft/loss of the USB stick or paper, all of them are subject to man in
the middle on the host you're logging in from. Basically, if you are
logging in from an untrusted host you can ALWAYS be presented with a
SHELL that records your login keystrokes, logs in as you, permits you to
do your work by passing through both directions of the traffic
transparently, and then simply simulates your logout on your end while
holding on to the remote shell.
To me this suggests that the real marginal benefit of ALL of the
two-factor authentication methods, secureid or otpw or whatever, is that
it raises the bar a tiny bit on a snooper presumed to have root control
of a system one is coming in from. Really, just a tiny bit. I don't
think that it would be terribly difficult to write a general purpose
network module for any operating system that could both sit in the
middle and offer up a trojan port for a third party to come in at will
and take over the "terminated" session(s) from an arbitrary
remote/breakout site. The attacker might not have the convenience of
being able to login as you whenever they want, as the session in
question cannot be restarted once THEY choose to terminate it, but hey,
do they NEED to be able to restart it or can they do tremendous damage
at the end of the one session? I rather think the latter.
Yeah, raising the bar even this trifle probably knocks out most of the
simple script-kiddies and over the counter rootkit or web-borne viral
spyware on Windoze boxen, but they aren't the real problem with
high-profile targets such as banks or organizations with lots of e.g.
SSNs and personal data. The danger there is the professional
ubercracker, the very person two-factor auth is supposed to foil. OTP
in general doesn't really foil them. The ONLY thing that can foil them,
really, is to have trusted/trustable systems on both ends of a
connection, in which case plain old one factor passwordless shared
secret ssh is more than adequate -- if you brought your own secrets.
Try explaining that to a security officer at a bank, of course, and
you'll get a polite smile and a CYA insistence that you use two-factor
auth anyway or you aren't getting close to their data. And besides,
what can they do? The majority of the clients accessing protected
servers in the internet Universe is still Windows, and Windows security
is a really, really unfunny joke.
IMO a secure login from a Windows box is an oxymoron, no matter what the
authentication factors used or software interface in question might be,
but alas, I haven't yet seen questions on a due-diligence form that
mandates the non-use of Windows systems as clients permitted to access
the protected data/server.
The fundamental problem with security is that it is a weak-link problem.
You are never more secure than the weakest exploitable chink in your
armor. You can pile on locks and armed guards at the door to let in
only properly authenticated sheep, but that will never prevent the
egress of a properly disguised wolf, or a wolf that goes in through the
wide open window on the side of the barn. You therefore have to extend
the security perimeter to the meadow where the sheep play no matter what
or you are just fooling yourself.
And I say this as a sheep. I work on lots of very secure systems with
confidential data on them and with root privileges. I don't sweat the
integrity of the ssh sessions themselves -- if ssh is cracked
civilization as we know it is doomed anyway, no due diligence can
protect you then. I sweat over the crackability of my laptop. It has
to be just as secure as the systems I log into, and yeah, I can't afford
to have it get stolen as my ssh keys are right there on its disk,
readable by anyone who reaches root, just as my passwords are snoopable
by anyone who reaches root, just as the connections themselves can
easily be hijacked by anyone who reaches root.
Running nightly-yum-updated linux with basically no open ports, I can
sleep at night. I >>would<< sleep better with a two-factor auth system
in place -- every little bit helps. But nothing, really, provides
protection against the pro-grade ubercracker, one who can take over your
system at the kernel level, once they gain access as root or as myself
(who pops in and out of being root all day).
Well, that's not quite true. Monitoring and reading the logs on the
servers, on the firewalls, paying attention, using passive no-open-port
network monitors on the switched wires, looking for anomalies -- that,
and the fact that relatively stupid script-kiddie crackers often have
broken scripts that leave footprints where ubercracker tools in the
hands of an ubercracker do not -- give sysadmins a fighting chance. But
no more than that. One has to BE an ubercracker (just a white-hat one)
to defend effectively against an ubercracker.
rgb
>
> -stephen
>
> --
> Stephen Mulcahy Atlantic Linux http://www.atlanticlinux.ie
> Registered in Ireland, no. 376591 (144 Ros Caoin, Roscam, Galway)
>
Robert G. Brown http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/
Duke University Dept. of Physics, Box 90305
Durham, N.C. 27708-0305
Phone: 1-919-660-2567 Fax: 919-660-2525 email:rgb at phy.duke.edu
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From nixon at nsc.liu.se Wed Mar 25 06:53:24 2009
From: nixon at nsc.liu.se (Leif Nixon)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:53:24 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] One time password generators...
In-Reply-To:
(Robert G. Brown's message of "Tue\,
24 Mar 2009 23\:28\:24 -0400 \(EDT\)")
References:
Message-ID:
"Robert G. Brown" writes:
> On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Billy Crook wrote:
>
>> And if your users don't like typing long random things in, but you
>> still want them to use one-time credentials:
>> http://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey/
>
> This one I had found -- it isn't exactly like the secureid thing, but it
> looks like it would work in a self-sufficient way, and one can
> overload/reload it with your own AES keys so that you really aren't
> relying in any way on a third party for authentication.
The Yubikey is really nifty. (Of course, it's Swedish. 8^) )
I like the price and the form factor, and the really clever,
in-hindsight-obvious idea of the Yubikey pretending to be a USB keyboard
and entering the OTP for you.
The one thing I dislike is that it is based on a symmetric scheme. All
AES keys are stored on the authentication server. If the authentication
server ever gets compromised, you have to replace or rekey your entire
deployed base of Yubikeys.
--
Leif Nixon - Systems expert
------------------------------------------------------------
National Supercomputer Centre - Linkoping University
------------------------------------------------------------
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From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Mar 25 10:47:15 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:47:15 -0700
Subject: [Beowulf] One time password generators...
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
To me this suggests that the real marginal benefit of ALL of the
two-factor authentication methods, secureid or otpw or whatever, is that
it raises the bar a tiny bit on a snooper presumed to have root control
of a system one is coming in from. Really, just a tiny bit. I don't
think that it would be terribly difficult to write a general purpose
network module for any operating system that could both sit in the
middle and offer up a trojan port for a third party to come in at will
and take over the "terminated" session(s) from an arbitrary
remote/breakout site. The attacker might not have the convenience of
being able to login as you whenever they want, as the session in
question cannot be restarted once THEY choose to terminate it, but hey,
do they NEED to be able to restart it or can they do tremendous damage
at the end of the one session? I rather think the latter.
For SecureID, you can set up your application to periodically reauthenticate either on a clock schedule or when you ask to do things that are particularly sensitive (>ftp GET "nuclear weapon release code"... Please reauthenticate..). Since knowing the pseudorandom 6 digit number now doesn't help you some 60 seconds into the future, you can make this pretty strong (at the cost of annoyance).
For FIPS201 badges, since they have both contact and contactless interfaces, you can do a strategy where the initial authentication is via the contact interface (which can see the crypto engine), and then you periodically ping the RFID part to make sure that the physical badge is still in the vicinity. (or, more painfully, make it so that the badge has to be always connected.. But that raises real usability issues with having two computers)
As always, the idea is to require both "a thing you know" and a "a thing you have".. The man in the middle can figure out the thing you know (e.g. By a spoof interface that grabs keystrokes), but it's tough to emulate the "thing you have", since it's behavior over time isn't predictable.
IMO a secure login from a Windows box is an oxymoron, no matter what the
authentication factors used or software interface in question might be,
but alas, I haven't yet seen questions on a due-diligence form that
mandates the non-use of Windows systems as clients permitted to access
the protected data/server.
I would qualify the Windows Box term.. If you lockdown the software configuration, I think one can make sure it's relatively secure. If you allow casual admin access to install whatever apps you want, then, yes, it's insecure. However, most banks (for example) do NOT do this, at least for inhouse PCs.. They rigorously control the software image (to the extent that you boot from a shared image over the network).. The only thing on the local disk is essentially a "cache" which gets compared/refreshed against the master image. No sticking in random USB widgets either.. If it looks like a disk drive, it gets encrypted (causing wailing and gnashing of teeth for employees who plug their MP3 players or cameras in)
And yes, they DO have a variety of processes in place to require business partners to have appropriately secured systems.
Where it gets loose is the "customer contact at home" end, where they're trading off annoyance of customers against security. This is like the credit card fraud situation.. If you lock it down, nobody will be able to use the card, so you trade off some losses (a few percent) against having volume.
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From rgb at phy.duke.edu Wed Mar 25 11:14:51 2009
From: rgb at phy.duke.edu (Robert G. Brown)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:14:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] One time password generators...
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Lux, James P wrote:
> For SecureID, you can set up your application to periodically reauthenticate
> either on a clock schedule or when you ask to do things that are
> particularly sensitive (>ftp GET ?nuclear weapon release code?... Please
> reauthenticate..). ??Since knowing the pseudorandom 6 digit number now
> doesn?t help you some 60 seconds into the future, you can make this pretty
> strong (at the cost of annoyance).
A trivial annoyance to the ubercracker. Remember, his agent is
intercepting ALL of your passwords and passing them through, and
snooping ALL of the data returned. You might prevent him from looking
up the code himself later in the session. You won't prevent him from
seeing what you see, ever, or holding onto the session itself (which
will often give him the opportunity to trojan the server itself and
completely bypass its usual auth scheme, subject to firewalls and
monitoring in between).
> For FIPS201 badges, since they have both contact and contactless interfaces,
> you can do a strategy where the initial authentication is via the contact
> interface (which can see the crypto engine), and then you periodically ping
> the RFID part to make sure that the physical badge is still in the vicinity.
> (or, more painfully, make it so that the badge has to be always connected..
> But that raises real usability issues with having two computers)
>
> As always, the idea is to require both ?a thing you know? and a ?a thing you
> have?.. The man in the middle can figure out the thing you know (e.g. By a
> spoof interface that grabs keystrokes), but it?s tough to emulate the ?thing
> you have?, since it?s behavior over time isn?t predictable.
There's man in the middle as in out on the Internet, and there's man in
the middle as in "owning your client". I claim that the former is
trivially solved already by ordinary ssh, the latter cannot be solved,
period. Access of any sort from a compromised client compromises the
protected host, quite possibly seriously compromises it.
Although yeah, adding multiple auths adds both annoyance and an
incrementally raising bar...
Booting your access host from a read-only flash drive, with built in PSK
credentials -- now THAT'S two-factor authentication.
> IMO a secure login from a Windows box is an oxymoron, no matter
> what the
> authentication factors used or software interface in question
> might be,
> but alas, I haven't yet seen questions on a due-diligence form
> that
> mandates the non-use of Windows systems as clients permitted to
> access
> the protected data/server.
>
> I would qualify the Windows Box term.. If you lockdown the software
> configuration, I think one can make sure it?s relatively secure. ?If you
Sure. But that's simply controlling the incoming client, and I AGREE
that this is what one has to do to make ANYTHING secure. Now
demonstrate to me any additional advantage to using yubikeys, secureids,
or anything else you like over simple ssl or ssh bidirectionally secured
unspoofable unsnoopable connections with no password at all.
Passwords are overrated. In fact, they are very nearly pointless as far
as strong security is concerned -- they add almost nothing once you've
established two reliable endpoints with an encrypted link between them,
provided only that the mechanism for establishing the link cannot itself
be snooped or cracked. And there are at least three (related) ways to
do that that I know of, probably more.
> allow casual admin access to install whatever apps you want, then, yes, it?s
> insecure. ?However, most banks (for example) do NOT do this, at least for
> inhouse PCs.. They rigorously control the software image (to the extent that
> you boot from a shared image over the network).. The only thing on the local
> disk is essentially a ?cache? which gets compared/refreshed against the
> master image. ?No sticking in random USB widgets either.. If it looks like a
> disk drive, it gets encrypted (causing wailing and gnashing of teeth for
> employees who plug their MP3 players or cameras in).
All pointless, presuming a compromised system anywhere, all overkill
assuming a secure system on both ends. Well, not quite overkill -- part
of this is MAKING the system secure, which I strongly approve of. And
there is a point to encrypting drives, because drives can be stolen by
non-ubercrackers. No ubercracker would deign to steal a drive, because
the way he gets access is on the backs of those with perfect rights and
permissions granting access. He can't get those after the fact, from an
encrypted stolen drive.
> And yes, they DO have a variety of processes in place to require business
> partners to have appropriately secured systems.
Not an easy problem -- I'm not making fun of it, and a lot of what they
require, while inadequate and somewhat misleading, is indeed helpful
against certain things. Close the doors you can, then cross your
fingers.
> Where it gets loose is the ?customer contact at home? end, where they?re
> trading off annoyance of customers against security. ?This is like the
> credit card fraud situation.. If you lock it down, nobody will be able to
> use the card, so you trade off some losses (a few percent) against having
> volume.
Security is always a cost-benefit problem. More secure is more
annoying and harder and more expensive to use. Easy to use for idiots
is almost always equivalent to insecure, although Linux does far, far
better for those idiots that Windows does -- consumer Windows goes out
of its way to be vulnerable, which is what is so annoying about it.
Default insecure, not default secure. And their silly tell-me-twices
don't make them a damn iota more secure...
rgb
Robert G. Brown http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/
Duke University Dept. of Physics, Box 90305
Durham, N.C. 27708-0305
Phone: 1-919-660-2567 Fax: 919-660-2525 email:rgb at phy.duke.edu
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From gdjacobs at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 16:52:10 2009
From: gdjacobs at gmail.com (Geoffrey Jacobs)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 15:52:10 -0500
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To: <4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl>
References: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <5d1ee7420903251352x15d74c7brc5a65b2cb610f6bb@mail.gmail.com>
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
> I'm not sure what environment you guys are working,
> but the average IQ100 office personnel is a lot more clumsy than
> you guys can imagine.
>
> In general of course if someone sucks in everything, he or she still can go
> work
> for a bank.
>
> Though nowadays i shouldn't say that too loud either it seems :)
>
> Bad paid and simple work. Not so long ago i saw 'em still use at one
> bank OS-2 from IBM as client :)
Bank employees use what they're told to use. No exceptions.
Most posters here are so far away from normal world that they have no clue
> about 99.99% of workfloor.
>
Define normal in terms of business. Ford used to announce an executive
firing by chopping up the poor sods furniture. Is that normal?
Mistake 1 they make is retry the same thing 100 times. Those posting here
> for sure will
> try each time something else until they figure it out.
>
> At best you can say that open source is progressing. It's far from usable.
> Then we had some workable x-windows type GUI, suddenly it was kicked out
> and replaced by
> big crap called x.org. Eating huge RAM and ugly slow. Doesn't even run
> well at a tad older machines
> with a bit less RAM.
I hope you're distinguishing between x.org and the windowing manager.
So in order to run open-office latest versions, you also need an expensive
> new machine. That's another
> weird phenomena.
No. Please stop. A processor like a Celeron 600 will run OpenOffice easily
on Fedora/Mandrake/Ubuntu. The same processor will run wonderfully using
something lightweight like XFCE. It was a little slow, but I used to run
OpenOffice 2 on a 266Mhz IBM laptop. Not recommended for XP and Office.
>
>
> Vincent
>
>
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From rgb at phy.duke.edu Wed Mar 25 23:55:37 2009
From: rgb at phy.duke.edu (Robert G. Brown)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:55:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To: <5d1ee7420903251352x15d74c7brc5a65b2cb610f6bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl>
<5d1ee7420903251352x15d74c7brc5a65b2cb610f6bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Geoffrey Jacobs wrote:
> Bad paid and simple work. Not so long ago i saw 'em still use at
> one
> bank OS-2 from IBM as client :)
>
>
> Bank employees use what they're told to use. No exceptions.
Not only are they told what to do -- in banks in particular, they cannot
make ANY CHANGE in ANY COMPUTER SYSTEM associated with the actual
banking process without going through an extensive and expensive
auditing and certification process. Banks are locked down tighter than
a drum. As they should be, although the lockdown IIRC interferes with
anything like a normal update stream, as all updates have to be tested
and certified. Banks tend to stick with systems on a decadal time
scale, because when I say expensive I mean expensive, like six month
long periods of testing and six more months of training, that kind of
thing. It's not like running out to the store and getting a box with
the latest version of Vista Ultimate and slapping it inside your bank's
trusted financial network.
> No. Please stop. A processor like a Celeron 600 will run OpenOffice easily
> on Fedora/Mandrake/Ubuntu.? The same processor will run wonderfully using
> something lightweight like XFCE. It was a little slow, but I used to run
> OpenOffice 2 on a 266Mhz IBM laptop. Not recommended for XP and Office.
OO is a bit bloated -- I seem to recall 300 MB+ of rpms in the last
round -- but hey, WYSIWYG integrated office tools are the very
DEFINITION of bloat so it is really no surprise. You want non-bloat,
stop using word processors or integrated office suites altogether and
stick with jove. Small. Tight. Fast.
The essential tool of rgbots.
OO to my experience generally runs just fine ONCE IT LOADS on just about
any linux box with 512 MB or more of memory (where memory is important
-- ooffice beats out even the bloat of firefox in VSZ, although firefox
has a much larger RSS), and yeah, on older systems it can take a while
to load.
On my current-gen laptop, it's downright peppy, though, usually, and its
RSS is under 100 MB (the relatively few times I have to use it) which I
guess is better than being over 100 MB. Sort of.
But it isn't really a problem. I'm more interested in trying to figure
out why 32 bit Centos under 64 bit VMware on a dual core 4 GB laptop is
really, really slow while it boots and for a short while afterwards,
then speeds up until it runs almost normally.
I'm guessing it's either a memory management problem or a 32/64 bit
problem. Interestingly, 64 bit vmware workstation wouldn't let me
install 64 bit centos on my 64 bit laptop. The 32 bit version works
fine, but it may be causing my split processor to have a severe identity
crisis as the code mix percolates through it.
rgb
Robert G. Brown http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/
Duke University Dept. of Physics, Box 90305
Durham, N.C. 27708-0305
Phone: 1-919-660-2567 Fax: 919-660-2525 email:rgb at phy.duke.edu
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From nixon at nsc.liu.se Thu Mar 26 09:57:42 2009
From: nixon at nsc.liu.se (Leif Nixon)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:57:42 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] One time password generators...
In-Reply-To:
(Robert G. Brown's message of "Wed\,
25 Mar 2009 11\:14\:51 -0400 \(EDT\)")
References:
Message-ID:
"Robert G. Brown" writes:
> But that's simply controlling the incoming client, and I AGREE
> that this is what one has to do to make ANYTHING secure. Now
> demonstrate to me any additional advantage to using yubikeys, secureids,
> or anything else you like over simple ssl or ssh bidirectionally secured
> unspoofable unsnoopable connections with no password at all.
Well, some banks over here have a authentication system that uses a
hardware crypto token with a keypad. You use it for a challenge-response
procedure to log in to the Internet banking site - nothing new so far -
but you also use it to sign (using challenge-response) each bunch of
transactions you perform on the banking site. And - this is the key
point - to sign the transactions you actually enter certain parts of the
transaction data (like the total amount to transfer) into the crypto token.
Even with total control over the client PC, it's real hard for an
attacker to do anything really evil in that setting.
--
Leif Nixon - Systems expert
------------------------------------------------------------
National Supercomputer Centre - Linkoping University
------------------------------------------------------------
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From nixon at nsc.liu.se Thu Mar 26 10:03:00 2009
From: nixon at nsc.liu.se (Leif Nixon)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:03:00 +0100
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To:
(Robert G. Brown's message of "Wed\,
25 Mar 2009 23\:55\:37 -0400 \(EDT\)")
References: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl>
<5d1ee7420903251352x15d74c7brc5a65b2cb610f6bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID:
"Robert G. Brown" writes:
> Not only are they told what to do -- in banks in particular, they cannot
> make ANY CHANGE in ANY COMPUTER SYSTEM associated with the actual
> banking process without going through an extensive and expensive
> auditing and certification process.
As in health-care. Which is why you get hospitals with
Conficker/Downadup running rampant through medical equipment with
embedded Windows systems. Basically, you're not allowed to patch them
without FDA approval.
That's scary.
--
Leif Nixon - Systems expert
------------------------------------------------------------
National Supercomputer Centre - Linkoping University
------------------------------------------------------------
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From rgb at phy.duke.edu Thu Mar 26 10:28:12 2009
From: rgb at phy.duke.edu (Robert G. Brown)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:28:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] One time password generators...
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Leif Nixon wrote:
> "Robert G. Brown" writes:
>
>> But that's simply controlling the incoming client, and I AGREE
>> that this is what one has to do to make ANYTHING secure. Now
>> demonstrate to me any additional advantage to using yubikeys, secureids,
>> or anything else you like over simple ssl or ssh bidirectionally secured
>> unspoofable unsnoopable connections with no password at all.
>
> Well, some banks over here have a authentication system that uses a
> hardware crypto token with a keypad. You use it for a challenge-response
> procedure to log in to the Internet banking site - nothing new so far -
> but you also use it to sign (using challenge-response) each bunch of
> transactions you perform on the banking site. And - this is the key
> point - to sign the transactions you actually enter certain parts of the
> transaction data (like the total amount to transfer) into the crypto token.
>
> Even with total control over the client PC, it's real hard for an
> attacker to do anything really evil in that setting.
I agree. Of course, what you're saying is that the actual transaction
agent is the token, and the token is separate and secure. The PC is
already a part of the external network back to the trusted host. I
stand corrected (sort of) for this exception, although it is really just
an example of a perfectly controlled transactional client (and the PC
itself is no longer really the client).
rgb
>
> --
> Leif Nixon - Systems expert
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> National Supercomputer Centre - Linkoping University
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
>
Robert G. Brown http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/
Duke University Dept. of Physics, Box 90305
Durham, N.C. 27708-0305
Phone: 1-919-660-2567 Fax: 919-660-2525 email:rgb at phy.duke.edu
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From rgb at phy.duke.edu Thu Mar 26 10:42:52 2009
From: rgb at phy.duke.edu (Robert G. Brown)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:42:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To:
References: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl>
<5d1ee7420903251352x15d74c7brc5a65b2cb610f6bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID:
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Leif Nixon wrote:
> "Robert G. Brown" writes:
>
>> Not only are they told what to do -- in banks in particular, they cannot
>> make ANY CHANGE in ANY COMPUTER SYSTEM associated with the actual
>> banking process without going through an extensive and expensive
>> auditing and certification process.
>
> As in health-care. Which is why you get hospitals with
> Conficker/Downadup running rampant through medical equipment with
> embedded Windows systems. Basically, you're not allowed to patch them
> without FDA approval.
>
> That's scary.
Um, I don't believe that this is the case, and I say this as a semi-pro
consultant in health care. Most hospitals probably do something along
these lines as part of the standard CYA, but the regulations, especially
HIPAA, are "due diligence" recommendations with an amazing {\em lack} of
specification. You can pretty much do whatever you like, but heaven
help you if you drop your patients' data or violate their
confidentiality. At the very least you'd better be able to show that
you tried hard to keep things secure...
This leads to an extremely wide range of IT practice in the EMR
revolution that congress has more or less mandated as a condition of
getting paid for medicare and medicaid. Very small practices run
whatever they can manage, usually a small/cheap EMR on a Windows server,
with virtually unsecured Windows clients -- again, pretty much whatever
Windows systems one happens to own, with whatever mix of Win95 on up on
systems up to 8 or 9 years old that happen to be lying around.
Seriously. No regulation, no government certification process, no full
time IT staff -- if you're lucky (or hire a good consultant:-) they'll
figure out that they need actual antivirus on all of their systems,
regular Windows updates on their server and clients, and that they
shouldn't use WEP on their over-the-counter wireless network.
Intermediate practices (like the one I do most of my consulting for)
start OUT like that -- it had a 10 year old SOLARIS x86 server and a
truly terrifying mix of PCs when I started out (and the Solaris server
is still running, sort of, under a desk, 4 GB hard drives and all -- go
figure:-). Now it runs with locked down linux servers running vmware,
a mix of linux and windows vm servers (including the primary EMR under
LINUX, thankfully, data relatively protected) and I still view the
goddamn WinXX PC clients to be the weak link in the security of the
whole system, but we have no choice.
Only hospitals are as slow and ponderous as you describe (my sister
works for ex-A4healthsys, and has been doing hospital systems for close
to 20 years now). They aren't ponderous because of the need for
certification, but because they are ponderous and because of the expense
of change. Which is what keeps my sister in business, basically -- she
goes around and messes with the infinite problems in the legacy hospital
management suites running on antique hardware being managed by
borderline incompetents when the original authors of those suites are
long since gone, the operating systems are no longer supported, the
hardware is obsolete and breaks a lot, and the underlying database is
something of dark evil. Believe me, I know, as she bends my ear a lot
and asks me for help with perl scripts designed to scrape the data out
of this or that nightmarish interface.
rgb
>
> --
> Leif Nixon - Systems expert
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> National Supercomputer Centre - Linkoping University
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org
> To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf
>
Robert G. Brown http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/
Duke University Dept. of Physics, Box 90305
Durham, N.C. 27708-0305
Phone: 1-919-660-2567 Fax: 919-660-2525 email:rgb at phy.duke.edu
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From tjrc at sanger.ac.uk Thu Mar 26 11:44:17 2009
From: tjrc at sanger.ac.uk (Tim Cutts)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:44:17 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To:
References: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl>
<5d1ee7420903251352x15d74c7brc5a65b2cb610f6bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3F1DAD5F-556B-4388-9179-F8CC754622B9@sanger.ac.uk>
On 26 Mar 2009, at 2:42 pm, Robert G. Brown wrote:
> Um, I don't believe that this is the case, and I say this as a semi-
> pro
> consultant in health care.
I don't know about hospital software, but it's certainly the case for
some DNA sequencer instruments. Our ABI 3700 capillary sequencers
have Windows machines attached for the data collection. ABI
explicitly forbid us from either patching Windows, or from installing
antivirus software. Doing so would drop us off support.
Consequently, all those machines are on their own strongly firewalled
network where hopefully they can't get infected, and if they are, the
infections can't get back out again. At least, not easily.
Tim
--
The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research
Limited, a charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a
company registered in England with number 2742969, whose registered
office is 215 Euston Road, London, NW1 2BE.
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From jlb17 at duke.edu Thu Mar 26 11:54:04 2009
From: jlb17 at duke.edu (Joshua Baker-LePain)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:54:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To:
References: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl>
<5d1ee7420903251352x15d74c7brc5a65b2cb610f6bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID:
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 at 10:42am, Robert G. Brown wrote
> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Leif Nixon wrote:
>> As in health-care. Which is why you get hospitals with
>> Conficker/Downadup running rampant through medical equipment with
>> embedded Windows systems. Basically, you're not allowed to patch them
>> without FDA approval.
>>
>> That's scary.
>
> Um, I don't believe that this is the case, and I say this as a semi-pro
> consultant in health care. Most hospitals probably do something along
> these lines as part of the standard CYA, but the regulations, especially
> HIPAA, are "due diligence" recommendations with an amazing {\em lack} of
> specification. You can pretty much do whatever you like, but heaven
> help you if you drop your patients' data or violate their
> confidentiality. At the very least you'd better be able to show that
> you tried hard to keep things secure...
Note that Leif mentioned medical equipment with embedded Windows systems.
And he's right -- you're not allowed to touch the software build on those
without getting the new build approved by the FDA (at least, not if you
want to use said equipment on real live patients). And those machines are
generally networked so that the data (images, e.g.) can be uploaded. It
is very, very scary. Why anyone ever made the decision to run medical
equipment on Windows (over the screams of the engineering team) is utterly
beyond me.
--
Joshua Baker-LePain
QB3 Shared Cluster Sysadmin
UCSF
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From a.travis at abdn.ac.uk Thu Mar 26 12:18:22 2009
From: a.travis at abdn.ac.uk (Tony Travis)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:18:22 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To: <3F1DAD5F-556B-4388-9179-F8CC754622B9@sanger.ac.uk>
References: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl> <5d1ee7420903251352x15d74c7brc5a65b2cb610f6bb@mail.gmail.com>
<3F1DAD5F-556B-4388-9179-F8CC754622B9@sanger.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <49CBAACE.2090704@abdn.ac.uk>
Tim Cutts wrote:
> [...]
> I don't know about hospital software, but it's certainly the case for
> some DNA sequencer instruments. Our ABI 3700 capillary sequencers
> have Windows machines attached for the data collection. ABI
> explicitly forbid us from either patching Windows, or from installing
> antivirus software. Doing so would drop us off support.
Hello, Tim.
You were lucky ;-)
ABI told us that we should NOT TOUCH the keyboard of our old Mac-based
DNA sequencer during a run because it might cause the system to crash!
Bye,
Tony.
--
Dr. A.J.Travis, University of Aberdeen, Rowett Institute of Nutrition
and Health, Greenburn Road, Bucksburn, Aberdeen AB21 9SB, Scotland, UK
tel +44(0)1224 712751, fax +44(0)1224 716687, http://www.rowett.ac.uk
mailto:a.travis at abdn.ac.uk, http://bioinformatics.rri.sari.ac.uk/~ajt
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From rgb at phy.duke.edu Thu Mar 26 13:01:02 2009
From: rgb at phy.duke.edu (Robert G. Brown)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:01:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To: <3F1DAD5F-556B-4388-9179-F8CC754622B9@sanger.ac.uk>
References: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl>
<5d1ee7420903251352x15d74c7brc5a65b2cb610f6bb@mail.gmail.com>
<3F1DAD5F-556B-4388-9179-F8CC754622B9@sanger.ac.uk>
Message-ID:
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Tim Cutts wrote:
>
> On 26 Mar 2009, at 2:42 pm, Robert G. Brown wrote:
>
>> Um, I don't believe that this is the case, and I say this as a semi-pro
>> consultant in health care.
>
> I don't know about hospital software, but it's certainly the case for some
> DNA sequencer instruments. Our ABI 3700 capillary sequencers have Windows
> machines attached for the data collection. ABI explicitly forbid us from
> either patching Windows, or from installing antivirus software. Doing so
> would drop us off support.
>
> Consequently, all those machines are on their own strongly firewalled network
> where hopefully they can't get infected, and if they are, the infections
> can't get back out again. At least, not easily.
That I'll believe, although there you're not dealing with the
government, you're dealing with a vendor, and the price you pay to
secure the machines is exactly what you stated -- put the system(s) in a
box and pray.
There are also quite possibly legal liability issues -- those are common
reasons for a policy like this on the part of a vendor. (Legal) risk
management is far more likely to be dictating policy than government
edict, and you'll often see very different strategies for that
management depending on whether it is IT dominated or lawyer dominated.
IT people want to patch and test but stay current, lawyers want CYA and
no change. The latter often don't UNDERSTAND the arguments for staying
current and patching holes -- they only understand "certification",
which they interpret as "they get sued if we have a problem, not us".
Truthfully, this is one reason a lot of people stay with MS, in spite of
their abysmal track record with security. They're so bad, they provide
an automatic "it's not our fault" escape clause, and the company is so
big that they have deep pockets should they get sued due to a
contratemps and they make the lawyers feel all warm and fuzzy because
how'd they get so big if their systems weren't reliable? Twenty years
ago it was "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM", same argument. Red
Hat has been working hard at providing at least the illusion of a
similar level of stability and risk assumptions, and of course in
general they have a much easier time of actually delivering.
rgb
>
> Tim
>
>
> --
> The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute is operated by Genome ResearchLimited, a
> charity registered in England with number 1021457 and acompany registered in
> England with number 2742969, whose registeredoffice is 215 Euston Road,
> London, NW1 2BE.
Robert G. Brown http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/
Duke University Dept. of Physics, Box 90305
Durham, N.C. 27708-0305
Phone: 1-919-660-2567 Fax: 919-660-2525 email:rgb at phy.duke.edu
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From tjrc at sanger.ac.uk Thu Mar 26 13:04:01 2009
From: tjrc at sanger.ac.uk (Tim Cutts)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:04:01 +0000
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To:
References: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl>
<5d1ee7420903251352x15d74c7brc5a65b2cb610f6bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <709891E6-D374-48D8-B034-EC6EC4C55596@sanger.ac.uk>
On 26 Mar 2009, at 3:54 pm, Joshua Baker-LePain wrote:
> Note that Leif mentioned medical equipment with embedded Windows
> systems. And he's right -- you're not allowed to touch the software
> build on those without getting the new build approved by the FDA (at
> least, not if you want to use said equipment on real live
> patients). And those machines are generally networked so that the
> data (images, e.g.) can be uploaded. It is very, very scary. Why
> anyone ever made the decision to run medical equipment on Windows
> (over the screams of the engineering team) is utterly beyond me.
I suspect the reason is usually that the raw devices the equipment
uses (typically a CCD camera or something similar) are only shipped
with drivers for Windows, and the upstream component vendor won't
support the instrument vendor controlling their hardware with their
own software drivers on some other operating system. It all comes
down to support matrixes. Old ABI 377 gel sequencers used to use
Macintoshes, but that was back in the days of System 7 with a software
stack that was so terrible a single error in the network stack would
cause your entire sequencing run to be lost (which is expensive, and
sometimes unrepeatable) and the ABI 3700 move to Windows was actually
an improvement, at the time...
Tim
--
The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research
Limited, a charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a
company registered in England with number 2742969, whose registered
office is 215 Euston Road, London, NW1 2BE.
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From rgb at phy.duke.edu Thu Mar 26 13:03:46 2009
From: rgb at phy.duke.edu (Robert G. Brown)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:03:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To:
References: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl>
<5d1ee7420903251352x15d74c7brc5a65b2cb610f6bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID:
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Joshua Baker-LePain wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 at 10:42am, Robert G. Brown wrote
>
>> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Leif Nixon wrote:
>
>>> As in health-care. Which is why you get hospitals with
>>> Conficker/Downadup running rampant through medical equipment with
>>> embedded Windows systems. Basically, you're not allowed to patch them
>>> without FDA approval.
>>>
>>> That's scary.
>>
>> Um, I don't believe that this is the case, and I say this as a semi-pro
>> consultant in health care. Most hospitals probably do something along
>> these lines as part of the standard CYA, but the regulations, especially
>> HIPAA, are "due diligence" recommendations with an amazing {\em lack} of
>> specification. You can pretty much do whatever you like, but heaven
>> help you if you drop your patients' data or violate their
>> confidentiality. At the very least you'd better be able to show that
>> you tried hard to keep things secure...
>
> Note that Leif mentioned medical equipment with embedded Windows systems. And
> he's right -- you're not allowed to touch the software build on those without
> getting the new build approved by the FDA (at least, not if you want to use
> said equipment on real live patients). And those machines are generally
> networked so that the data (images, e.g.) can be uploaded. It is very, very
> scary. Why anyone ever made the decision to run medical equipment on Windows
> (over the screams of the engineering team) is utterly beyond me.
Ah, I see, thanks. I completely missed the point about medical
equipment. Sorry Leif. Or as Jane used to say on SNL, "Never Mind..."
Need coffee, need coffee, got no coffee.
Maybe a bite of chocolate instead.
;-)
>
> --
> Joshua Baker-LePain
> QB3 Shared Cluster Sysadmin
> UCSF
>
Robert G. Brown http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/
Duke University Dept. of Physics, Box 90305
Durham, N.C. 27708-0305
Phone: 1-919-660-2567 Fax: 919-660-2525 email:rgb at phy.duke.edu
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From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Thu Mar 26 13:17:04 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:17:04 -0700
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To:
References: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl>
<5d1ee7420903251352x15d74c7brc5a65b2cb610f6bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: beowulf-bounces at beowulf.org
> [mailto:beowulf-bounces at beowulf.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Baker-LePain
> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:54 AM
> To: Robert G. Brown
> Cc: Leif Nixon; beowulf at beowulf.org
> Subject: Re: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
>
> Note that Leif mentioned medical equipment with embedded
> Windows systems.
> And he's right -- you're not allowed to touch the software
> build on those without getting the new build approved by the
> FDA (at least, not if you want to use said equipment on real
> live patients). And those machines are generally networked
> so that the data (images, e.g.) can be uploaded. It is very,
> very scary. Why anyone ever made the decision to run medical
> equipment on Windows (over the screams of the engineering
> team) is utterly beyond me.
>
Not to be a MS fanboy, but it should also be recognized that Windows Embedded is a different animal than consumer Windows. Or, more properly, Windows Embedded CAN be made a different animal. It's up to the system integrator/manufacturer to "do the right thing". After all, it's not the windows kernel that's the problem, it's the "other stuff" and "configuration" that is the problem. It's the person who decides "Hey, let's let the user run PowerPoint on the EKG monitor" that is the real problem, which is exacerbated if your system development team has come from a more traditional non-windows embedded development world, where the idea of network connectivity was a pipe dream (gosh, wouldn't it be neat if we could get the data out by some means other than a 9600 bps serial link! And no more GPIB/IEEE-488!). Windows *is* a seductive trap.. Hey, we can load windows up and then we can just write to USB thumb drives, or use a browser!.. It creates the illusion that you don't need!
to invest some serious resources in the OS for your device.
The problem being that those developers (who are very development cost sensitive) AREN'T usually people who have enterprise/networking system experience. They're "consumers" of desktop services, but their mindset is focussed on running the crosscompiler for the Z80 or x86 that's on the embedded card. There's a whole different mindset when you go from "microcontroller running test equipment" to "networked attached computing device that happens to make measurements". When you're running on a dedicated box with limited interfaces, the very box itself enforces a form of security. You don't even think about viruses, because there's no way to load new software short of sending it back to the factory to burn a new PROM.
Heck, they may not even be aware of the existence of Embedded Windows, so they may think that loading up consumer XP is where it's at. It solves the immediate need: network and disk accesses without having to actually write any software. Maybe security winds up on some "to-do for the next release" list.
I know lots of embedded developers who basically have devoted all their mindshare to their particular embedded platform (be it VxWorks, eCos, RTEMS, or whatever) and don't really have the time and inclination to become an expert on Windows (which, itself, is probably a >1 year task, PARTICULARLY if you come from a Unix environment. It's the long time Unix SysAdmin guys who you find writing weird little scripts and stuff to do things that Windows actually already does, but in a non-unix-obvious way)
I think (and it's just speculation, so "flame on" if you will) that those very same developers, if they put Linux on the piece of gear, would make the same boneheaded system configuration issues, etc. that they do with Windows. The only saving grace is that the "vanilla" installlation of Linux, particularly if they picked a distro targeted at embedded apps, *is* somewhat better configured than the "vanila" installation of XP.
Jim
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From jlb17 at duke.edu Thu Mar 26 13:23:05 2009
From: jlb17 at duke.edu (Joshua Baker-LePain)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:23:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Beowulf] Wired article about Go machine
In-Reply-To:
References: <316141.15220.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<4EE78016-9754-4800-9F42-CD71038B45C4@xs4all.nl>
<5d1ee7420903251352x15d74c7brc5a65b2cb610f6bb@mail.gmail.com>