Dotsie wrote:Don't you think that's true of all religious people? If they really believe in heaven, they can't possibly believe that atheists will get in, regardless of the life they've lead?

Not true Dots. My mum was very religious (quietly not the church type). My Dad was an absolute atheist. Mum was quietly confident that no matter what Dad said, she and he would end up in heaven together because her's was a forgiving god. and would forgive Dad for not believing He had NO way of arguing with that.

The Collective Brain: The synoptic serendipity that comes when interesting thoughts from interesting and interested people get together. And the whole is always more than the sum of its parts.

poohcarrot wrote:Do most christians believe they are guarenteed 100% a place in heaven?

Catholics don't. The priesthood and Catholic schools never stop telling you that you are a sinner and are going to be punished for it. Catholics spend most of their lives apologising for stuff they haven't actually done.

Most Catholics hope that they'll go to Purgatory and that their families will pray for them. Purgatory is like some sort of ethereal soul valeting service. Eventually, once your soul is clean enough, you might be let into Heaven.

Catholics think that you are born with the stain of Original Sin (the sins of Adam and Eve) on your soul and that can only be cleansed by the sacrament of Baptism.

It's a hard life being a Catholic and you don't have much to look forward to when you die.

You have to wonder if all these Catholic priests guilty of sexual molestation of children, actually believe in an afterlife. If they do believe that they will be judged for their sins, then I'd love to be a fly on the Pearly Gates when they arrive there.

poohcarrot wrote:Do most christians believe they are guarenteed 100% a place in heaven?

Catholics don't. The priesthood and Catholic schools never stop telling you that you are a sinner and are going to be punished for it. Catholics spend most of their lives apologising for stuff they haven't actually done.

Most Catholics hope that they'll go to Purgatory and that their families will pray for them. Purgatory is like some sort of ethereal soul valeting service. Eventually, once your soul is clean enough, you might be let into Heaven.

Catholics think that you are born with the stain of Original Sin (the sins of Adam and Eve) on your soul and that can only be cleansed by the sacrament of Baptism.

It's a hard life being a Catholic and you don't have much to look forward to when you die.

Mum was a catholic Tony... she didn't believe all that bunkem. She was VERY careful to keep up away from the "extreme" catholics. "Don't you dare believe all that... God's NICE! no matter what they say!"

The Collective Brain: The synoptic serendipity that comes when interesting thoughts from interesting and interested people get together. And the whole is always more than the sum of its parts.

Speaking from a position of some dubious authority (being a horribly lapsed Catholic and v. proud of that) we were taught that everyone could potentially go to heaven regardless of creed, colour, race or sexual persuasion (although you'd have to try pretty damned hard with the last one ). The clincher however is... PURGATORY!

Not hell, but a pretty squalid 'burb betwixt the Black Pit and Heaven Liek Tony's said this is where all sinners (which of course is practically everyone except possibly Mary Mother of God ) go to serve a term of suitable punishment until you've paid for your evil deeds and are cleaned up enough to pass muster at the Pearly Gates.

So - in theory - Hitler, having been born into a Catholic family (not Catholic you notice, just the potential to be one), eshewing God and animal meat products altogether, killing several million people for no good reason and making many more millions of lives blighted and bereaved, if, on taking his own life (itself a major sin of course), he for one millisecond before the cyanide kicked in though GOODNESS! I WAS WRONG ALL ALONG FORGIVE ME O LORD! and REALLY MEANT IT... - hey presto! He would be off the hook and off to Purgatory instead of Hellfire and damnation. How long he'd have to stay there is then the next stumbling block and of course there'd be plenty of other souls in there with the Star of David hovering around them not wanting to make his stay there too pleasant so lert's live in hope that he'd be there for most of eternity if that's possible.

Like I keep saying Catholics get guilt as much as Jews, 'cos it's all the same One God - only when he's called Allah he's got more gonads and goes proactive and ups his sales pitch so you can have a good punch-up on your way to Heaven without getting too worried about the consequences...

Everyone can get in - it's just a question of how much resistance you're prepared to put into that whilst you have a pulse

He's not forgiving - hence saddling Catholics with a sin that they didn't even commit.

He created Adam and Eve (if we are to believe the Bible) and when they didn't measure up to his expectations, he threw a strop and kicked them out. Never mind that his original design was obviously flawed, or they would have behaved themselves. Not just that, but because he decided (according to the Bible) that his design for women was particularly bad, that he would make them suffer the pain of childbirth forever.

And then (according to the Bible) when mankind, after being abandoned by their creator, looked for new gods, they were punished by being wiped off the face of the Earth.

But never mind not being able to design people properly, God also screwed up when it came to angels. Some of them stood up to him and they were banished as well.

Talk about stroppy!

But the odd thing is - at least I've always thought so - that if we assume that Heaven, Hell and God actually exist, then the Devil must be (in a way) working with God. Otherwise, without Hell, where would all the sinners go? If the Devil really wanted to piss God off, he'd just need to close Hell down.

Last edited by Tonyblack on Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dotsie wrote:Don't you think that's true of all religious people? If they really believe in heaven, they can't possibly believe that atheists will get in, regardless of the life they've lead?

Not true Dots. My mum was very religious (quietly not the church type). My Dad was an absolute atheist. Mum was quietly confident that no matter what Dad said, she and he would end up in heaven together because her's was a forgiving god. and would forgive Dad for not believing He had NO way of arguing with that.

Emma Darwin was a bit gutted because not believing in God meant that Charles wouldn't get in. I think religious people often have issues with what will happen to them/their loved ones after they die, but then so do a lot of agnostics. This is why some sort of wishy-washy afterlife scenario was invented, and spiritual mediums are only too keen to keep this going. It's good that your mum found a way of coping, but really, it's still the "I'm guaranteed a spot" mentality.

What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!