Money, for one, for those among the Britons whove bet on the name of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridges new son, born July 22 in London. According to multiple sources, the bookmakers are betting on a traditional moniker such as James or George. Similarly regal names were predicted if William and Kate, as the parents are better known, were to have had a girl.

For Catholics, a name also traditionally includes a patron saint.

Catholics have a long history of naming their children with recognized saints in mind, making a name like North  Kim Kardashian and Kanye Wests recent choosing for their daughter  once unimaginable.

Thats no longer the case.

Deacon Vito S. Piazza Sr., pastoral associate of St. Joseph in Sykesville who coordinates the parishs baptisms, said he has seen a decline in the number of Catholics who purposely choose saints names for their babies. Those who do often make them middle names.

Baptismal classes could provide an opportunity for Catholic leaders to encourage saint names, but couples are also waiting longer than in the past to baptize their children, Deacon Piazza said. Many wait until after the child is born to take baptismal preparation classes.

At that point, theyve already named their baby, he said.

Naming a baby after a saint goes back to the early centuries of the church, said Monsignor Steven P. Rohlfs, rector of Mount St. Marys Seminary in Emmitsburg.

The name affirmed the parents belief in the communion of saints and expressed admiration for the early Christian martyrs. It also demonstrated hope that a saint would take a special interest in interceding on behalf of his or her namesake, Monsignor Rohlfs said.

(The name) is a constant reminder that we are to emulate our patron saint, whoever he or she may be, and that we have a special affinity toward them, and they to us, he said. It was a core belief, and still is, that those in heaven still take an active interest in those who are still on their way.

As Christianity emerged from oppression to become the dominant religion, the culture of Christendom presumed people would name children after saints, Monsignor Rohlfs said. That continued for centuries, until the rise of secularism.

The trend has noticeably declined since the 1960s, he said.

When I was growing up, we were taught a prayer to our patron saint which we said every day, and which I still say every day. Ive said it since I was in the third grade, he said.

With thousands of saints canonized by the Catholic Church, the statistics lean in parents favor of giving their child a saints name, if unintentionally.

According to the U.S. Social Security Administration, the top 10 baby names for boys in 2012 were Jacob, Mason, Ethan, Noah, William, Liam, Jayden, Michael, Alexander and Aiden. For girls, they were Sophia, Emma, Isabella, Olivia, Ava, Emily, Abigail, Mia, Madison and Elizabeth. Most are the names of saints or biblical figures.

Theres even a St. Zoe (which ranked last year as No. 30), but not, unfortunately for Catholic parents wishing to emulate Gwyneth Paltrow, a St. Apple.(Theres also no St. Gwyneth, but there is a St. Gwen.)

If a Catholic was not given a saints name at birth, the sacrament of confirmation offers another opportunity to take a saints name, Monsignor Rohlfs said.

However, he would like to see the tradition of naming a child after a saint or virtue revived, he said.

Besides the spiritual dimension of it, a Christian name is part of Catholic culture, Monsignor Rohlfs said. As the Catholic culture has eroded, so too have many of these practices. We simply have to await a better time when people will once again rediscover these things.

Deacon Piazza also said he would advise parents to embrace the practice, calling it a wonderful tradition.

That child, if they are raised in the faith, would be taught to pray to that namesake to intercede for them, he said.

With thousands of saints canonized by the Catholic Church, the statistics lean in parents favor of giving their child a saints name, if unintentionally. According to the U.S. Social Security Administration, the top 10 baby names for boys in 2012 were Jacob, Mason, Ethan, Noah, William, Liam, Jayden, Michael, Alexander and Aiden. For girls, they were Sophia, Emma, Isabella, Olivia, Ava, Emily, Abigail, Mia, Madison and Elizabeth. Most are the names of saints or biblical figures.Theres even a St. Zoe (which ranked last year as No. 30), but not, unfortunately for Catholic parents wishing to emulate Gwyneth Paltrow, a St. Apple.(Theres also no St. Gwyneth, but there is a St. Gwen.)If a Catholic was not given a saints name at birth, the sacrament of confirmation offers another opportunity to take a saints name, Monsignor Rohlfs said.

Are you 100% Catholic but live outside the compound?Girl name: Pick one name that sounds good and has nice connotations, and one saint name to cover your behind.Boy name: Just nothing that would appeal to Gwenyth Paltrow, for goodness sake.

Are you a Catholic who can name everyone in the team of attorneys who are lodging a complaint against the Pope for crimes against humanity, but keep forgetting the address of your local church?Girl name: Something empowering and possibly devastatingly ironic. One system is to take something that makes Catholics uncomfortable, like heretics or dodgy Marian apparitions, and slyly pair it with something that would make Oliver Cromwell nod with satisfactionso, like, Medjugorje Louise or Hans Kung Makepeace. Show that youre resisting oppression and that you went to college.Boy name: a girl name. Bonus points if you can incorporate Pope Joan.

In Spanish, I have heard some of the older generation have names such as “Polycarpo,” or “Ignatio.” I might name my own son either one of those. Polycarp was burned at the stake by the Romans. Ignatius was eaten by lions. A name like Augustine would also seem quite good.

Not for the sake of a “patron saint,” as it is God who watches over us, not the saints in heaven.

I think the Church needs to insist on at least one saint’s name. Once upon a time, this was virtually a requirement. I’m not sure how official it was, but I do know that prior to Vatican II, a priest would have insisted that least one of the names to be that of a saint.

Not for the sake of a patron saint, as it is God who watches over us, not the saints in heaven.

In your opinion.

Do parents watch over their children or is it your opinion that that is left to God also?

Why would saints have a reason to pray if they are already in heaven?

"And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel." Apocalypse 8:3-4

I think the Church needs to insist on at least one saints name. Once upon a time, this was virtually a requirement. Im not sure how official it was, but I do know that prior to Vatican II, a priest would have insisted that least one of the names to be that of a saint.

My parents were expecting only one child when my mother suddenly produced twin girls. If it was a girl the name was going to be Nancy Ann. They had to scramble and ended up with Nancy Lee and Nadine Ann. My sister regularly refers to Ann as "her saint."

I understand this offering to be all the prayers of all of God’s people (saints) from all of time - i.e. the prayers of David, made while he lived, would be part of this offering.

There is another thing that puzzles me - if we are transported to heaven at death, and if there are no tears in heaven - how can those in heaven watch what happens on earth? Surely some of their loved ones make some choices that would cause sorrow.

And if we do go directly to heaven, then who are the “dead in Christ” mentioned in 1 Thes 4:16?

I’m not pretending to have the answers - but these are questions that I have.

“If the saints stand in the presence of God in heaven, they obviously know whatever he wills that they should know. We can’t place any limitation on their knowledge, only He can do that.”

Keep in mind that your church does not teach that Mary and the Christians in heaven are receiving a prayer via transmission from God. It teaches that Mary (as an example) is actually present with the believer since she is somehow sharing in the divine attribute of omnipresence.

Mary is taken up body and soul into the glory of Heaven, and with God and in God she is Queen of Heaven and earth. And is she really so remote from us? The contrary is true. Precisely because she is with God and in God, she is very close to each one of us. While she lived on this earth she could only be close to a few people. Being in God, who is close to us, actually, within all of us, Mary shares in this closeness of God. Being in God and with God, she is close to each one of us, knows our hearts, can hear our prayers, can help us with her motherly kindness and has been given to us, as the Lord said, precisely as a mother to whom we can turn at every moment. She always listens to us, she is always close to us, and being Mother of the Son, participates in the power of the Son and in his goodness. We can always entrust the whole of our lives to this Mother, who is not far from any one of us.

I would like to entrust the confirmandi and all of you to Our Lady. The Virgin Mary teaches us what it means to live in the Holy Spirit and what it means to welcome the newness of God in our life. She conceived Jesus by the work of the Spirit, and every Christian, each one of us, is called to welcome the Word of God, to welcome Jesus in ourselves and then bring him to everyone. Mary invoked the Spirit with the Apostles in the upper room: every time that we come together in prayer, we are supported by the SPIRITUAL PRESENCE of the Mother of Jesus, to receive the gift of the Spirit and to have the ability to bear witness to the risen Jesus. I say this in a special way to you who have received Confirmation today: may Mary help you to be attentive to that which the Lord asks of you, and always to live and to walk according to the Holy Spirit! (Pope Francis, April 28, 2013
Regina Caeli, Capitalization mine)

Furthermore, this also implies that Mary and the Saints must have all knowledge about the individual praying, as just “hearing” the prayer would not work. As you need to know the “heart” as to whether or not the prayer is truly being spoken righteously. Not to mention one would need to know all the languages of the world, the personal circumstances of each individual, etc.

When I said “omnipresent in heaven,” what I meant was “omnipresent after death,” and omniscient also. Since it is not possible for a human spirit, or any spirit other than God, to be in more than one place at the same time, and to know all of these things.

Instead of imagining such complicated fables, it’s easier to just stick with the scripture, which ascribes all prayer to the Almighty, and to none else.

My mother's family was what I'd call ultra Catholic. She was born in 1932 and didn't receive a Saints name until she was baptized, and then the name was her second middle name. (Is that what you call it?)

And then there's everyone else on that side of the family with the middle name Marie! (Technically not everyone, but a lot of Maries!)

Oh, they certainly did insist back in the day (1943). My own mother was supposed to be named Carolyn, but Father flat-out refused to baptize her with that name.

My mother’s godmother and godfather took her to church on the day she was born (at home). Her godfather was about to be shipped out to the war and they wanted to get the baptism done before he left. So off they went, in the dead of winter, and walked over to the church. That’s when Father made his pronouncement.

He said he’d baptize her Carol Anne, but not Carolyn.

Rather than traipse all the way back to the house, Aunt Jean made a Command Decision. The child would be named Barbara. And so it was.

My maternal grandparents named one of their daughters Doris Mae, until they took her to be baptized. The priest told them that ‘Doris Mae’ was a name for a showgirl, and he changed it to “Mary Ann”, even though one of her older sisters was already named “Mary” But from then on, she was called Mary Ann by the family.

I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen

My husband was given the name of a 2nd century pope as a middle name (which he never used) because his father had an obsession with giving his kids names with the first initial of his own name, and he seemed to have run out of saints’ names by the time he got to my husband. So the priest insisted that they pick a saint’s name and my husband’s mother picked a name she knew belonged to a saint...because it was the name given to her in a women’s club to which she belonged! Some women’s clubs and also sororities used to give their members “secret names” at that time, early 20th century, and when he was born (mid-century), that was the first thing that occurred to her.

However, my husband did know about this saint (Cletus) and said that it was good to know this and he would never have thought of him otherwise. And it certainly was a distinguishing feature...

Not for the sake of a patron saint, as it is God who watches over us, not the saints in heaven.

2 Peter 1:1-4 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

Looks like God is big enough to take care of us Himself, without any *help* from the *saints*.

34
posted on 07/23/2013 6:50:19 PM PDT
by metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,”

That’s in reference to Jesus Christ, it says nothing about us. Nor are we going to sit in judgment of say, Gabriel or Michael. We will sit in judgment of the entire world, not just the fallen angels, but the wicked as well.

Though even this in a limited sense, as all judgment is ascribed to Christ, who performs it Himself.

You cannot conclude that the spirits of men will have the divine attributes, or will be superior in rank to the Holy angels in heaven.

“BTW Livius did say that we will be divine, he said we can be higher. At least half of your problem is your insistence on misquoting. You should stop doing it.

At least half of the problem are Catholics making irrelevant comments that don’t apply. Why even bring it up then, if not to argue that the spirits of human beings will possess the divine attributes?

To some, you’d think we go to visit the witch of Endor to get info from the dead.

You’ll hear the great cloud of witnesses were OT or people down here.

You’ll hear the bowls of incense in Rev. 5 when the prayers of the saints are offered are just praise, or in Rev. 8 when offering up the prayers of ALL God’s people, it’s just the live ones. Let’s not talk about the souls under the altar that speak to the Lord in Rev. 6 (after the breaking of the fifth seal); I guess that will only happen at the end... Jerome’s mis-translation, yada, yada.

You may even be told Jesus didn’t really confer with Moses and Elijah... it was just a literary device.

I guess next I will not be able to ask you or other brothers and sisters to pray for me... because that would be interceding for me.

But then again, when you choose to take out the apocrypha (as well as other books), you miss out.

Forgive me for the snark, i’m getting old and grouchy... one thing of many I have to work on. As St. Phillip Neri would say, it’s just God giving me more opportunities to practice patience.

“To some, youd think we go to visit the witch of Endor to get info from the dead.”

The witch didn’t talk to the dead. She brought up a Demon that pretended to be Samuel, unless you suppose that Samuel’s spirit really was dwelling in the Earth, and was “disturbed” by the power of the witch to be brought up.

“Youll hear the great cloud of witnesses were OT or people down here.”

The scripture you are referencing was itself referencing a list of martyrs from the previous chapter. If you imagine that the saints are a ‘cloud of witnesses’ around you, watching all that you do, then you’ve just made them Gods.

You would do better to believe in fairies or Santa Clause being able to travel all around the world in a single night.

Even the Angel Gabriel couldn’t be with Daniel for 3 weeks, because he was held up by a Demonic power. If Gabriel could be omnipresent, a witness to everything Daniel was doing, that wouldn’t have been a problem.

“You may even be told Jesus didnt really confer with Moses and Elijah... it was just a literary device.”

We can certainly imagine Moses and Elijah as not being both in heaven, and at the same time with Jesus. That would make them, at the least, located in two places at once. The scripture doesn’t say that.

“But then again, when you choose to take out the apocrypha (as well as other books), you miss out.”

I’m not sure your own religion even believes the “apocrypha” either. Most of it they admit are just fables and cute stories. You should try reading their introduction to these books and see for yourself.

“Youll hear the bowls of incense in Rev. 5 when the prayers of the saints are offered are just praise,”

Do you think that our prayers are literally transubstantiation into incense?

My four catholic boys have names that include Charles, Francis, Isaac, James, John, Joseph, Robert and Stephen. Our daughter’s name similarly reflects saints, though we don’t have a Mary yet. It is a good old traditioon that we keep alive and in doing so have managed to give our children names that stand out from their age group.

I’m getting grouchy too! This was actually an interesting and kind of amusing discussion until we met somebody busy being his own St Peter and St. Paul. No wonder Protestant churches don’t hold together and there’s about a billion of them. Each man his own Pope.

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