A time capsule of the greatest financial mania in the history of mankind, told in real-time by regular folks and patriots. May future generations better understand the madness of crowds, and how power and money corrupt.

See the USA Today story about the immigration bill and social security - these two items have been connected from day one (like hand in glove). Yes, illegal immigration is a problem but our government has been negligent for a reason. They love collecting the SS Tax from people they know will never collect. Read the USA Today article.

Don't forget the leadership of the Republican party tried to con us into this crap.

HP would like to thank the members of the GOP who unlike Bush and Cheney have read the constitution and are familar with the laws of the United States. HP would also like to thank these 15 Democratic senators who rebelled against their corrupted leadership:

Nice to see people still have a voice in DC, at least with a few Senators. The internets were ablaze with this issue. I'm just amazed that so many Senators decided to end their political careers today, while promoting illegal behavior and disregard for the laws of the land. Scary.

Gross, who manages the $104 billion PIMCO Total Return Fund, said the subprime crisis "may be just what the Fed has been looking for - easy credit becoming less easy; excessive liquidity returning to more rational levels," he added.

I really hate this anti-immigrant populist CRAP! Spare me the "they will rape our women and suck our welfare system dry" crap! The immigrants from south of the boarder are absolutely essential to keeping this country livable and globally competitive.

The Mexican immigrants are some of the hardest working and most decent people out there. There is NO WAY our country could function without them. Legalizing their status is essential to ensuring that all people in this nation are treated humanely and fairly.

The defeat of this bill is a bad thing, and it is too bad none of you can see why.

Funny Keith, I was going to post how we should kick out of the office all those crooks who voted in favor for the amnesty bill. I'm glad that you have posted first.

We need to contact all those crooks and voice our disgust and how we are going to spread the world around that they should NEVER be elected again. But corrected me if I'm wrong, there were 46 votes in favor of the bill. It seems that you forgot to mention 3 other traitors.

We need ZERO POPULATION GROWTH until the current irresponsible growth goes back to sustainable levels.

Oh man, Bitter Renter must be soooo unhappy that his pall Bush couldn't sell this country cheaply to Mexico and greedy corporations.

First the US Soccer team kicks Mexico's butt at Gold Cup, and now their amnesty bill goes bye bye. It's a day of celebration for America!

Oh, and check out the reps. from HI giving this the thumbs up! Yeah, like THEY have a problem with illegals swimming THAT border!

Actually, I lived in Hawaii for a short time and they have a huge problem with illegal mexicans. The coffee, sugar, and macadamia nut farmers fly in illegals by the thousands on private charter jets to work the farms for $2/hour. Parts of Hawaii have more mexicans than Hawaiians and Honolulu has a serious gang problem thanks to all this.

Storming our border illegally cannot be accepted. If you want to come to America, or be American, get in line. Go through the legal process. Millions want to come to America. Breaking our laws, cheating the system, jumping the line - that is NOT acceptable.

At least by sane, thinking Americans.

Hiring illegals should also be unacceptable. Meanwhile, who do you think built all those damn houses these past few years? You got it.

Japan has almost no immigration and they do just fine thank you. This "we can't live without illegal immigrants" stuff is nonsense. Employers will have to pay a living wage (oh no!) and life will go on.

Well, it seems some of these would be treasonous senators had a change of heart, eh Keith?Still, it is discouraging to see such a long laundry list of defiant scumbags infesting our government. Should they be allowed to remain in office? No, absolutely not.Should they be allowed to remain living in the U.S.?

George Bush is without a doubt also the weakest president ever in the history of our nation,he has allowed Dick Cheney to become the shadow president,while he struts around and says I AM THE PRESIDENT HAH

I watched the bill get shot down, live on TV. It was sweet. NO reconsideration of it until 2009! Maybe by then RP will be POTUS...we can always hope. Meanwhile, they should concentrate on shutting down the border and rooting out all the corrupt companies hiring them and possibly we'll be rid of a bunch of illegals by attrition. I think Keith hit the nail on the head, when he says Americans are for LEGAL immigration, what's so hard for these people to understand about that? Because we want laws and fairness supported, we're "racists" or "mean-spirited"? I don't think so. But what's next for all the illegals that were out in the streets protesting? What are they gonna do about it now that they lost? Stay tuned...

Some mexicans are essential, picking crops and doing menial work. For them they could use a worker visa where you build up enough credits and eventially become eligible for citizenship.

But we should know WHERE these people are and how much they are making. Make the employers pay an extra $10K or $5 per hour per year to the gov't for hiring a mexican over paying an american a legitimate wage for doing the work.

But the point should be thata) no illegal gets a bonus for having been over here illegally (ie credit towards citizenship)

andb) no employer should be able to hire illegals for far less than americans, even if it's to do menial work. Make them pay a user fee to the system.

and c) the border should be closed. Put 100K military people patrolling the border.

"Thinker," you don't have your facts straight. I'm a Latino who has been against this type of legislation from the beginning. I'm not anti-immigrant or a racist or xenophobic. I, like millions of others, not including you, know what this whole mess is really about. The Senate does not consist of a bunch of humanitarians. The big money behind this push for legalization has come from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and multinationals. They know we don't need imported labor. They want two things:1. reduce labor costs domestically for jobs that can't be outsourced.2. integrate the economies of Canada, Mexico and the U.S. via the SPP. Mexico has been screaming the loudest for this integration and wants full implementation of the SPP by 2009. Why? Because their oil production is collapsing and oil is their economy. They need both another source of income, remittances, and a safety valve for the social pressure of a rapidly declining economy. In other words, they want to avoid a revolution by sending millions of their citizens to the U.S. to steal construction jobs, service sector jobs, manufacturing jobs, and housing construction and service jobs from Americans. The American middle class is being forced to subsidize the failure of the Mexican government to the benefit of multinational corporations who see cheap labor as Mexico's next best export. Our government, consisting of large numbers of political whores, is helping to keep the borders open, cheap labor flowing, and economic integration on a fast track regardless of the damage done to the working class of the U.S. The U.S. has survived before without 15-20 million Mexicans and Central Americans working here. The demand for this labor is artificial, destructive, and undermines our future. For your information, the U.S. is already technically insolvent. We don't need, can't afford millions of poorly educated, unskilled low wage earners in this country.

If you look around the world, the same thing is happening in all industrial and wealthy countries. They allow importation of an underclass of workers not much different than slaves. But in the old days, slave owners were personally responsible for housing and caring for their chattel.

Nowadays we still want slaves for those menial, dirty, thankless jobs, but hypocritically try to fob off responsibility for their welfare on Joe Taxpayer. Well Joe is sick of it and finally said NO. All this talk about illegals being "essential" to the economy is bullsh_t. They are a convenience for lazy, hypocritical Americans who won't admit their true beliefs and hide behind PC slogans.

First, is Honica a woman? I had always thought he/she a man for some reason.

Second, while its the surface the defeat of this bill looks good for the American worker (I am against any form of amnesty) the fact of the matter is that we have only managed to retain the status quo, which has been non-enforcement of our borders and laws.

"Admit it people if instead of 15 million undocumented citizens of brown color we had 15 million blond, blue eyed undocumented citizens, you'd be all for legalization."

Yeah, but European immigrants don't send 80% of their cash earnings back to their country of origin instead of paying for the expensive infrastructure and social services illegals consume. Nor they breed like flies, putting all those kids on the taxpayer's back.

Also, according to your hero Senator Diane Feisntein (D-Ca), there are 800,000 gang members in the US, with 47% composing of Hispanics, 28% African-Americans, 18% Caucasians, and 7% Asians. Right now we have only 700,000 police officers in the entire US to take care of about 800,000 Hispanic gang members alone, without counting the other crooks non affiliated to gangs. How many European gangs do we have in the US?

Your reasoning makes absolute no sense! But I'm not surprised because the sheeple never can see the big picture, check unbiased data, be curious, question authority and MSM. People, open your eyes to make this country better!

"Amnesty would have made them legal, would have allowed them to get real SS numbers, would have made them start paying taxes, would have allowed them a chance to get a licence, get insurance."

Yeah right. As if the illegals would give a rat's ass about this new set of laws!

"they will still be here. They will still drive w/o insurance. They will still pay no taxes."

Let's translate that: the slaves will still be here. The slaves will still drive w/o insurance. The slaves will still pay no taxes.

If you like the idea of slaves, then do the right thing and buy a few for your personal use. You could pay for their education, health care, SS taxes, and housing. Or, you can continue to spew sanctimonious liberal nonsense. Put up or shut up!

Mexican illegal immigrant Jose Madrid, 28, said he has been unable to find a construction job over the past six weeks because of the crackdown, and hasn't been able to send money to his parents and his 7-year-old son back home.

"We immigrants, we are leaving Panama City. People are afraid they will be deported," he said. "The companies don't want to hire illegal people. Now they're only hiring those with papers."

Developer Louis Breland is finishing the first phase of a $750 million beach condo project.

"Subcontractors could not function without immigrant laborers for painting, rebar and steel work. They are the best workers," he said. "Without them, the cost of construction would be 10 times as much and nothing would get built."

Here a question for all you HPers. Without millions of illegals working in the construction sector, could the housing bubble have happened? If builders had to rely on domestic workers and pay higher wages, we might have avoided the glut of homes and condos that are going to kill the economy for years to come.

12 million is not the number by a long shot. Also to the "we cant compete with the world market without them" crowd do you want to compete with China or 3rd world countries? If so you would like to have your wages reduced by 75% and will be forced to live 5 in a room. That is what it will take to compete with the world market. We have to drop to their level. I am fairly sure that if it was their job on the block they would be screaming as loudly as anyone else but as it is not they can enjoy sitting on the moral high horse and look down at their less enlightened fellow man.

But we should know WHERE these people are and how much they are making. Make the employers pay an extra $10K or $5 per hour per year to the gov't for hiring a mexican over paying an american a legitimate wage for doing the work.

Sounds simple enough...just make it so the cost of an illegal on average is the same as the cost to hire an american. american construction worker making $15/hrillegal construction worker gets $8/hr, pay the state $7/hr

I prefer living in a country with my own culture and type of people. And 95% of humanity would agree with me. What's wrong with that?"

Let's get the facts straight here. About 80% or more of the Brazilian population is of European descent. It's composed mainly by Portuguese, Italians, Germans, Polish, French, Dutch, Ukrainians, etc. Brazil has the biggest German, Italian, and Japanese immigrant population in the world. And first country to abolish slavery in 1850.

Actually, when several wars broke out through out the world, Brazil was the country who embraced most Europeans and Japanese immigrants who were seeking shelter and a new peaceful start. During the World War II, Brazilian forces had a major participation and successfully won battles in Europe against the Nazis and fascism in Italy. As a matter of fact, we are now welcoming several Iraqi and Palestinian families in Brazil who are seeking asylum from the mess that Americans started in the Middle East.

Check your facts first, before saying stuff you don't know anything about. Go check on wikipedia, as a start. You must be one of those Americans who think that Brazilians are Hispanics or that we live on trees.

The annual GDP of the state of Sao Paulo alone is bigger than the entire annual GDP of Argentina. Brazil is the 8th economy in the world, and our immigration into the US is minimum when compared to other ethnic groups. Rarely that you see a Brazilian making the headlines for something horrendous in the US. Sure, we have a few bad apples, especially because of our huge population of about 300 million. But you don't see Brazilians making the headlines in the US in a weekly basis, like the other immigrants. Have you heard of a Brazilian gang in the US? Or Brazilian mafia family? Or Brazilians getting life or electric chair in the US? No.

So don't start bashing or putting Brazil in the same pot without knowing the facts first. Brazil receives more immigrants, including lots of Americans and Argentineans now, than we migrate outside our own country. Do you at least know that our official language is Portuguese? But I understand, MSM loves to bash Brazil.

"OK now what geniuses? No amnesty. So you think Jose and Co are just going to say OK we're going home or something?

they will still be here. They will still drive w/o insurance. They will still pay no taxes.

Amnesty would have made them legal, would have allowed them to get real SS numbers, would have made them start paying taxes, would have allowed them a chance to get a licence, get insurance."

Do you really think that Jose & Co. is going to volunteer to pay taxes just because they get a greencard? Why would they? They will still be doing the same cash-under the table jobs like before, so why volunteer to pay taxes? Or you think that high school-drop out Jose will get a job as an analyst at Charles Schwab after getting his greencard, so he'll be forced to pay taxes that are deducted automatically from his paycheck.

Are you nuts or just plain naive? For god's sake, think sheeple, think!!!

12 million is definitely a "conservative" estimate. But I haven't seen any estimates anywhere higher than about 20 million. Have you?

Anon said:"Amnesty would have made them legal, would have allowed them to get real SS numbers, would have made them start paying taxes..."

As far as the problem of the illegal immigration status quo not being solved, so what? The extra tax income from legalization would be miniscule when measured against a nearly $60 trillion dollar budget deficit (unfunded liabilities). And don't forget that the typical family from Mexico produces 4-5 kids. That means an extra 60-80 million people the taxpayers will have to fund in another generation. These are not going to be 60-80 million people making six figure salaries. The notion that they won't go back to Mexico if they can't find work or get benefits is nonsense. Unemployed illegals have already started to go home, although the evidence so far is largely anecdotal. In my own experience as an inner city teacher I've already had immigrant students tell me family members can't find work and are considering returning to Mexico where they can at least depend on their extended family network.

Just have to share this sad story - A disabled neighbor of mine lived with a woman who was here illegally (and with her niece who turned out to be a prostitute). He said the woman brought back two illegals and lived in his apartment while he thought they were her relatives (turned out she was charging them but didn't tell him). The woman cleaned out his bank account and hurt my neighbor's hand when she couldn't get more money out of my neighbor. My neighbor was so scared so he got out of the house and stayed at a motel for a night. Then he called his brother and sister and they got rid of those people living in his apartments. I was like all he had to do was call the police since they're all illegal (well then I thought the police probably don't care). It's a sad story but I'm glad he got his life back.

r you think that high school-drop out Jose will get a job as an analyst at Charles Schwab after getting his greencard, so he'll be forced to pay taxes that are deducted automatically from his paycheck.-----------------------------------

Wait a sec, are you saying that some people (besides the rich) are not paying their fair share? I am going to call John Edwards immediately.

Brzil is not a great place unless you have lots of money. there are huge slums in the major Brazilian cities that make Detroit look like a paradise. Police go around killing hundreds of street children to eradicate crime. Tens of millions of people live in cardboard villages on the outskirts of cities. Those are the parts of Brazil that the rich and foreigners do not see.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6247608.stmClashes between police and drug traffickers in a slum in the Brazilian city of Rio de Janeiro left 19 people dead, officials have said. Guns and grenades were used in the fighting, with armoured vehicles and helicopters backing police units.

The violence began when more than 1,000 policemen advanced on Alemao, the slum stronghold of a drug-dealing gang.

Putnam was viewed as the one member of elected leadership most likely to accept a comprehensive immigration package, but he decided to oppose the Senate bill after members rejected an amendment offered by Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) to deport convicted felons, something supporters viewed as a poison pill.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0607/4700_Page2.html

I guess it is racist to deport illegal aliens who come here to commit felonies. Anyone who voted in favor of amnesty should be kicked out of office and deported right along with their fellow criminal immigrants. For you dirtbags who are complaining about having your lawns mowed - DO IT YOURSELF or HIRE AN AMERICAN. My parents hire an American for $30 and he does a great job taking care of their lawn. Jobs Americans won't do is just an excuse to hire people at slave wages.

"they will still be here. They will still drive w/o insurance. They will still pay no taxes."

Its funny that even with the last amnesty only half of the illegal aliens applied for citizenship. Bottom line is there is a massive number of people here that will not follow laws under any circumstances. Not exactly how you want to run your country in the middle of war. That's exactly where enforcement comes in.

Moreover, people say that 12 million cannot be deported. Really? Thats about 4% of the entire US population. If they really went ahead with a deportation, they could do a slow rolling deportation. All they have to do is make sure the rate out is slightly greater than the rate in. As the years pass the problem will recede. For instance, if the net outflow trickle was 3K per day, then that would be 1080K per year. In four short years, 30% could be deported. Since its slow Mexico could handle it easier.

Oh no, McCain/Kennedy/Bush just had to mess it all up with a big amnesty and massive h1-b increases etc. No enforcement at all. Just a big pie for business interests.

Glad to see the bill die. Enforcing current law would be a start. Where is the fence? Fences work for Israel. Fences work between India and Bangladesh too.

as for the comment about Japan not having immigration and their "doing just fine", this is partially true. they strictly limit immigration, and their economy has picked up in the last year or two, but demographically speaking they are sitting on a time bomb. the percentage of their population over 60 is rising rapidly because they, like most industrialized countries, aren't having enough kids to replace those who die off.

I really hate this anti-immigrant populist CRAP! Spare me the "they will rape our women and suck our welfare system dry" crap! The immigrants from south of the boarder are absolutely essential to keeping this country livable and globally competitive.

The Mexican immigrants are some of the hardest working and most decent people out there. There is NO WAY our country could function without them. Legalizing their status is essential to ensuring that all people in this nation are treated humanely and fairly.

The defeat of this bill is a bad thing, and it is too bad none of you can see why.

June 28, 2007 6:40 PM

What an idiot.

You obviously don't live in California, unless "livable" to you means sewer."Globally competitive"?You corporate Ho you.Does globally competitive mean our tiny population of mega corporation owners makes the most profit while paying the lowest wages?

I don't hire illegal dishwashers to stay globally competitive you chimp, only to stay in business due to oppressive taxes, which are collected to pay for....oh yeah, illegals.

Amnesty would have made them legal, would have allowed them to get real SS numbers, would have made them start paying taxes, would have allowed them a chance to get a licence, get insurance.

Umm ... no. Absolutely nothing would have changed under shamnesty. Are you dumb enough to believe that the illegals would get in line to pay a $5,000 fine to become legal, when legal means paying taxes and being accountable to us?

You people miss a very important point: They don't want to be legal! Being illegal means they don't have to pay taxes and don't have to pay for insurance. "Everything's free in America!"

Does anyone trust that 12 million number (besides the MSM)?

No. I've seen realistic estimates that Arizona alone has up to 5 million. No way we only have 12 million total.

I say dont spend a dime sending a one of them back! Hunt down the owners of the businesses hiring them and give them prison time!Make a few examples of CEO's and small business owners and the problem will be fixed.

To the morons out there who think we are all racists. My ex wife is from Mexico and her and I both agree the illigals should be sent home muy rapido. You want to be here fill out papers wait in line and pay your fees. Otherwise F O

went to the bank today to get some change for my trip to the Caribbean tomorrow, i swear every other guy in line was an illegal, cashing some check or some nonsense. two of the three tellers spoke spanish when calling 'next', which i guess is a requirement nowadays. kinda stereotyping, i shoulda not moved when i heard 'next'...just waited until they said something in spanish to me. how dare they think i know ENGLISH!

then i go to petsmart to drop off my dog for the week and the guy at the front was speaking spanish over the phone before he helped us.

alexandria va area.

but an interesting thought...what part of the population is going to need to know spanish to get the job? probably the ged/high school degree only types, like tellers/cashiers/etc. the american ged's are going to have too much competition with their illegal counterparts that are bilingual. you think these dropouts are going to go learn spanish? yea right. those ged's are going lower on the totem pole and going to resort to crime...

Please stop getting all upset about immigrants working here. The problem with our immigration policy is that our *legal* immigration is way too restrictive.

In fact I believe the US should change what we define as "citizenship". Citizenship should be about 2 things only:Voting and Land Ownership. NOT WORK!!!

Citizens should have unrestricted access to voting, campaign donorship, land ownership and things like that. But any U.S. citizen ought to be allowed to invite a ***peaceable*** immigrant to work for himself.

1) Secure Border. Duh.

2) Define 3 different classes of people:i. U.S. Citizensii. U.S. Residentsiii. Illegals.

3) Define 3 different classes of corporations/partnerships/trustsi. THose whose total ownership / beneficiaryship is held by U.S. Citizensii. Those with majority ownership / beneficiaryship is held by U.S. Citizensiii. THose which are not.

VOting RUles:Only CItizens Can Vote

Campaign Donorship Rules:i. U.S. citizens can donate all they want as a matter of 1st amendment rightsii. I don't see a problem with i-class corps donating all they want but it might be necessary.iii. Nobody Else donates (maybe too harsh but this could be worked on if necessary)

Land Ownership:Only U.S. Citizens, class-i, or class-ii corps can purchase land.

Work:i. U.S. Citizens and Legal Residents can work.ii. U.S. Citizens, class-i and class-ii corps can invite *any* peaceable, healthy foreigner of their choice to work for them just by first having them become a Legal Resident.

Becoming a Legal Resident:i. Be a citizen or legal resident of a country that can reasonably verify that you are not a violent personii. Submit to and pass a health screening (including mental health).iii. Have your sponsor leave a large deposit ($1000?) which will be returned if and when you leave.

Okay, this would assure that the people we are getting are either 1) ready to work or 2) have enough money so that we don't care. It will also assure us that we will be getting non-violent, disease-free people.

The biggest problem we have is that we restrict the "Becoming a resident" part too much and restrict the supply thereby creating a black market.

We also should have taken all the money we spent in Iraq and instead build a huge canal from san diego to texas so that we wouldn't be dependent on panama's. This would also have the benefit of creating a moat between us and mexico.

No, this is totally the wrong fing solution. DO you want to have to show a passport every time you do *anything* in this country? Are you aware that you are an fing Nazi? IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF EVERY HUMAN BEING IN AMERICA TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE THEY CONDUCT BUSINESS WITH IN ANY WAY IS LEGALLY HERE. YOU ARE GOING TO TURN THIS COUNTRY INTO A NAZI POLICE STATE ASSHATS!!!! THe responisiblity for this lies with border patrol and whoever wants an immigrant to be here to begin with. build an fing border and leave me the hell alone.

Let's get the facts straight here. About 80% or more of the Brazilian population is of European descent. It's composed mainly by Portuguese, Italians, Germans, Polish, French, Dutch, Ukrainians, etc. Brazil has the biggest German, Italian, and Japanese immigrant population in the world. And first country to abolish slavery in 1850.

...

Check your facts first, before saying stuff you don't know anything about. Go check on wikipedia, as a start. You must be one of those Americans who think that Brazilians are Hispanics or that we live on trees.The 80% figure may be true in rural Santa Catarina, but that would not apply elsewhere, such as the sertão regions in the Northeast. I understand how y'all would consider pardas like Tyra Banks, Halle Berry and Mariah Carey to be "white", but we don't do that here, and the true figure would be more like 50%. About 30% of Brazilians are pardos, and you know it.

In fact, I'd say that Brazil is what the United States will be like in about twenty years.

Amnesty would have made them legal, would have allowed them to get real SS numbers, would have made them start paying taxes, would have allowed them a chance to get a licence, get insurance. ----------------------------

uh, yea, right.

and I suppose you believe that the government will really close the border down? Like they promised to do twice before in order to grant amnesty?

I got about two paragraphs into your posting before I choked. The thing is you are dead wrong on your principle edict. America is the most generous immigration granting nation in the history of planet earth.

3.8 million legal immigrants in 2005. We don't enforce the laws, so of course 40-60% (depending on your source) of visa holders OVERSTAY their visas. Most H1-Bs don't go to high level talent but rather compete with your community college nephew or go to folks trying to grab lucrative contracts for Indian outsourcing. If you choose to learn about this stuff, you would drop to your knees and cry.

America is a country. The rest of the world has come to feel entitled to invade western democracies and also to feel the principle interest of those democracies should be focused outside of citizens of their nation states. This is wrong and that's why the bill failed to passed. The people spoke.

You act as if the government has any credibility on things. I am glad we are going to stick with the current legal immigrant levels - if the bill would have passed, those already outrageous levels would have doubled or tripled.

You act as if excess immigration has no consequences. For instance traffic and housing are driving most Americans to sickness while middle and lower class wages can't even keep up with inflation. The solution to America's need for more Americans should be addressed by Americans having more children. We want to have kids but cannot afford them; your solution would seal our generation as the end of line genetically. And sometimes, just sometimes, native Americans want to NOT feel like a minority in their own backyards.

If you want to call me racist fine. I am a nationalist. Throughout the history of this nation, 99% of our people were nationalists (or liberatarian/ states rights). The fact that philosophy is is now tantamount to racism (for the liberals) should only demonstrate how far we have fallen as a nation.

I don't mind limited immigration. But not illegal and not fraudulent immigration intended to undermine existing American working families. I protested Amnesty on capital hill and count this event as the first win for America taking back it's soul from the globalist investor-class of plutocrats who have hijacked our nation.

One caveat: I think all future immigrants (legal) should be routed to the heartland. In other words, we will not take any more people in Americas overcrowded coastal cities! If you can agree to this, I may change my mind on increasing the quotas. Lastly, lets differenciate between those coming to start businesses and those taking jobs. No offense, but unless you have a PhD in microbiology or something, taking a job is not doing anyone any favors. Except maybe for the wall street crowd chasing every last profit down every last immoral lane they can find. Next stop - child labor?

damn you people are not capable of following a simple a to b conversation. I was the one that said if illegals were blond you'd have no issue with them. Not one of the responses went directly to that point. All you racist fucks could spew was "yeah but Russia's population is declining", there are gang bangers in California and other such nonesense. Address the issue at hand. You hate non-whites. You hate the Indian programmer for "stealing" your job. You hate the undocumented Latino citizen for "stealing" your job. You hate the African-American for god only knows what reason. No matter what the race, you find fault and place blame for your own pathetic lives.

Keith, throw Brownback in there to. The Be-atch voted YES on closure early, and then switched his vote when it became clear the vote would fail. These jackasses have no character whatsoever. Nothing but political whores.

Power to the people and support Ron Paul as the Constitutionalist candidate.

People who love the Constitution are not dead. Party affiliation has nothing to do with loving our sovereign nation and the rule of law. Forget about Parties already, and concentrate on those from either Party that want what's best for AMERICA!

The Thinker said... I really hate this anti-immigrant populist CRAP! Spare me the "they will rape our women and suck our welfare system dry" crap! The immigrants from south of the boarder are absolutely essential to keeping this country livable and globally competitive.

The Mexican immigrants are some of the hardest working and most decent people out there. There is NO WAY our country could function without them. Legalizing their status is essential to ensuring that all people in this nation are treated humanely and fairly.

The defeat of this bill is a bad thing, and it is too bad none of you can see why.

I don't give a rat's ass how hard they work. The bottom line is that they are working hard at a job that an AMERICAN should have. Simple Econ 101. You can't dump 12 to 20 million illegals into the job pool without causing serious damage to the Law of Supply and Demand. Not to mention that rat bastard business owners are growing rich on the backs of average Americans.

Let's see how business owners do: no matching taxes, no health insurance, no workman's Comp, no vacation, no retirement. What I see is a bunch of baby boomer assholes who think as long as they make out, f**k everyone else.

Hey Morons:By killing the immmigration reform bill you've actually opted for more of the same. That means more illegals, the current level of (non)enforcement and more chain migration from countries like Mexico, the Middle East, and China.

Most of you are so stupid that you are totally opposed to changing a system you know absolutely nothing about. As it stands, any illiterate can legally come to the USA as long they have a close relative.

Who does that favor? Why those same people you love to villify on this blog, the Mexicans. Your theoretical blue-eyed blonde from Scandinavia has no chance of coming here legally because they have no close family connection to sponsor them.

Immigration reform would have replaced family based immigration with a points system that favored job skills and education, something that most other countries have done already.

So in the words of one consevative pundit "instead of having the equivalent of the first ten picks of the NBA draft, we end up with the first ten names in the Tijuana phone book."

No temporary work program = more illegals. Again, countries like Canada have done this for seasonal and agricultural labor and it works reasonably well. People come and then they go because they know they won't find the door slammed shut next year. Is it perfect? No, but again it beats the H2 Visa program by a mile because by the time the paperwork is done here, the crops have rotted in the fields.

Granted, there were lots of problems with the bill that should have been addressed, but the current system is so dysfunctional, anything would have been an improvement. But none of you dummies could see anything beyond the so-called amnesty provision.

Whether you like it or not the debate over amnesty is already over. Unless America is prepared to mobilize a new Trail of Tears or risk becoming an international pariah on the order of Idi Amin's Uganda, these people are here to stay.

The "make it impossible to work and they will melt away" theory promoted by Talk Radio is a complete and utter fiction. They will all have to be dragged out of here kicking and screaming. The last western country that had the nerve to actually pull something like this off was Germany.

Making it tougher for them to live will only make them more desperate and desperate people will do anything. And yes by that time you should be afraid.

The administration's own GAO/GBO said that Amnesty would have only reduced illegal immigration only 25% (if we can even believe that)

At the same time, it would have doubled legal immigration and granted amnesty to another 20 million plus. It would have also created demand for ANOTHER illegal workforce for corporate America.

Call us morons if you want, we won, and the fight is just getting started. You see, ALL WE HAVE TO DO TO ELIMINATE THE CURRENT PROBLEM IS ENFORCE THE CURRENT LAWS. Therefore, gridlock is good. The politicians have finally listened to the people of America. It won't be long before law returns to America.

Popularism will be the catch word in the 2008 election. Fine article on the power of the populace. Thanks Keith for providing a forum to flesh out all the lies by the elitists:

Techno-Populist Victory on ImmigrationBy Rich Lowry

Beware of an aroused citizenry. It's an admonition that should be ingrained in the brain of any run-of-the-mill politician, let alone someone who has ascended to the United States Senate.

But from the Olympian heights of the world's greatest deliberative body, it is often forgotten. So senators got a reminder in the humiliating defeat of a "comprehensive" immigration bill that had the support of the president of the United States, a bipartisan group of senators with the blessing of the leaders of their caucuses, and the support of the editorial boards of the country's most important newspapers.

All of that was enough to get all of 46 votes on a key procedural vote that needed 60 to pass. The fight over the immigration bill was the first instance of an insider parliamentary struggle in which bloggers, talk-radio hosts and citizens were able to have a major voice through the synergistic power of the Internet, radio waves and telephone lines. Bloggers picked apart the bill, talk-radio-show hosts broadcast its flaws, and ordinary people jammed their senators' phone lines -- blocking what had begun as a kind of legislative coup.

The creators of the Senate's so-called Grand Bargain -- giving illegal aliens legal status in exchange for new enforcement measures -- originally hoped to slam it through the Senate in a matter of days. Even as they held a self-congratulatory press conference about the bargain, no one had seen the text of the 300-page bill. Their implicit axiom was, "Trust us."

It quickly became clear that was impossible. The bill's boosters repeatedly were caught mischaracterizing it. Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff seemed to suggest that illegals would have to pay back taxes, when the White House had quietly taken that provision out. Bloggers and talk-show hosts publicized this and other problems that otherwise would have gone unnoticed (John McCain learned of the tax provision in a blogger conference call), slowing its momentum.

As the techno-populists dissected the bill, its senatorial supporters mustered their most off-putting imperial pique. Mississippi Republican Trent Lott rued that talk radio was "running the country." Ohio Republican George Voinovich went on the Sean Hannity radio show and complained that he was being "intimidated" because people were calling his office opposing the bill.

President Bush said opponents hadn't read the bill, when diligent bloggers combed through it line by line. They gave the bill the markup -- the detailed process of amendment -- that it never got in committee because there was such a rush to passage. Even the procedural shenanigans that the bill's supporters relied on to try to get it through were subject to the intense glare of publicity. Instead of helping the bill's cause -- as such arcane maneuvers would have in the past -- they hurt it by adding to the sense of chaos and unfairness around the process.

Once, the Senate leadership would have been able to lean on members opposed to the bill to do a dishonest two-step to pass it. First, vote for cloture to end debate over the bill, which requires 60 votes and was the toughest hurdle. Then, vote against it on final passage, which takes only 50 votes -- so there would be more wiggle room for "no" votes. This way, the Senate leadership would have gotten its bill, and senators opposed to it could tell constituents back home that they had voted against it. But bloggers and talk-radio hosts blocked that dodge by sending up a cry, "A vote for cloture is a vote for amnesty."

In the end, support for the bill literally collapsed. Even the imperious Voinovich voted against cloture. Now, there is really no such thing as an "inside game" anymore, since bloggers make sure it gets "outside." Both the right and the left will take advantage of this, for good and ill policy ends. But it's clearly an enhancement of democracy. Senators should get used to it, and buy more phone lines.

Don't you xennophobes think it's time to move on to some new outrage you can shriek about?

Geezus Kee-RIST! Until the republicans told you to start obsessing over illegal immigration, no one noticed. I guess you people don't realize that this issue is just something the republicans are using as their new rallying cry since the homo marriage thing has lost its luster.

Perhaps you can find some new threat to your precious but totally vapid American way of life.

The "make it impossible to work and they will melt away" theory promoted by Talk Radio is a complete and utter fiction.

If they have no job and they have no welfare, they will leave. Or they will resort to black market occupations and be arrested/ deported.

Making it tougher for them to live will only make them more desperate and desperate people will do anything. And yes by that time you should be afraid.

And anonymous said:When La Raza starts its revolution,...

Oh yeah, I am soooo scared. Anyhow, keep saying things like that. I see your march for amnesty turned out sooo positive for illegal rights. Everytime you DEMAND rights and try and BULLY AMERICANS, I smile as I count the new recruits lining up to fight you. Good luck with your invasion. Your country can't even build a road but you are going to occupy America? You should have just stayed in the shadows. You woke a sleeping giant called the American electorate.

George W. Groovy said... Hey Morons:By killing the immmigration reform bill you've actually opted for more of the same. That means more illegals, the current level of (non)enforcement and more chain migration from countries like Mexico, the Middle East, and China.

Most of you are so stupid that you are totally opposed to changing a system you know absolutely nothing about. As it stands, any illiterate can legally come to the USA as long they have a close relative.

Who does that favor? Why those same people you love to villify on this blog, the Mexicans. Your theoretical blue-eyed blonde from Scandinavia has no chance of coming here legally because they have no close family connection to sponsor them.

Immigration reform would have replaced family based immigration with a points system that favored job skills and education, something that most other countries have done already.

So in the words of one consevative pundit "instead of having the equivalent of the first ten picks of the NBA draft, we end up with the first ten names in the Tijuana phone book."

No temporary work program = more illegals. Again, countries like Canada have done this for seasonal and agricultural labor and it works reasonably well. People come and then they go because they know they won't find the door slammed shut next year. Is it perfect? No, but again it beats the H2 Visa program by a mile because by the time the paperwork is done here, the crops have rotted in the fields.

Granted, there were lots of problems with the bill that should have been addressed, but the current system is so dysfunctional, anything would have been an improvement. But none of you dummies could see anything beyond the so-called amnesty provision.

Whether you like it or not the debate over amnesty is already over. Unless America is prepared to mobilize a new Trail of Tears or risk becoming an international pariah on the order of Idi Amin's Uganda, these people are here to stay.

The "make it impossible to work and they will melt away" theory promoted by Talk Radio is a complete and utter fiction. They will all have to be dragged out of here kicking and screaming. The last western country that had the nerve to actually pull something like this off was Germany.

Making it tougher for them to live will only make them more desperate and desperate people will do anything. And yes by that time you should be afraid.

Hey Moron, there's no reason that the enforcement part of the Bill can't move forward, and screw the thought that allowing illegals who shagged ass across the border to be an immigrant issue. It's a crime brainiac.

Bitter Renter said... Don't you xennophobes think it's time to move on to some new outrage you can shriek about?

Geezus Kee-RIST! Until the republicans told you to start obsessing over illegal immigration, no one noticed. I guess you people don't realize that this issue is just something the republicans are using as their new rallying cry since the homo marriage thing has lost its luster.

Perhaps you can find some new threat to your precious but totally vapid American way of life.

I always look forward, [comical value], to your posts. LOL!

You a homebuilder or chicken processor, or maybe possibly be a yard care magnate?

Anonymous said... damn you people are not capable of following a simple a to b conversation. I was the one that said if illegals were blond you'd have no issue with them. Not one of the responses went directly to that point. All you racist fucks could spew was "yeah but Russia's population is declining", there are gang bangers in California and other such nonesense. Address the issue at hand. You hate non-whites. You hate the Indian programmer for "stealing" your job. You hate the undocumented Latino citizen for "stealing" your job. You hate the African-American for god only knows what reason. No matter what the race, you find fault and place blame for your own pathetic lives.

I'm the one calling you ignorant. Do you really think all the LEGAL IMMIGRANTS who came here in the early 20th Century were blond?

If I remember right, it was Germany that liked blondes because they were Arians. We took all comers, but on our terms. It's called self interest, so tough shit for all the illegals. And for all the illegal Latinos, by all means please demonstrate, as it will speed up the deportation process.

Anonymous said... Here a question for all you HPers. Without millions of illegals working in the construction sector, could the housing bubble have happened? If builders had to rely on domestic workers and pay higher wages, we might have avoided the glut of homes and condos that are going to kill the economy for years to come.

Did you know that Real ID was slipped into the immigration bill? Hey, who is nazi now?---------------------Did you know that I was opposed to the bill FWIW because it was just so nonsensical? If you've got a illegal who's felon, duh, deport him.

if you take the time to read my long post, step one for me is building a big canal between us and mexico to stop illegals. I want this before anything else.

RJ said... "Thinker," you don't have your facts straight. I'm a Latino who has been against this type of legislation from the beginning. I'm not anti-immigrant or a racist or xenophobic. I, like millions of others, not including you, know what this whole mess is really about. The Senate does not consist of a bunch of humanitarians. The big money behind this push for legalization has come from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and multinationals. They know we don't need imported labor. They want two things:1. reduce labor costs domestically for jobs that can't be outsourced.2. integrate the economies of Canada, Mexico and the U.S. via the SPP. Mexico has been screaming the loudest for this integration and wants full implementation of the SPP by 2009. Why? Because their oil production is collapsing and oil is their economy. They need both another source of income, remittances, and a safety valve for the social pressure of a rapidly declining economy. In other words, they want to avoid a revolution by sending millions of their citizens to the U.S. to steal construction jobs, service sector jobs, manufacturing jobs, and housing construction and service jobs from Americans. The American middle class is being forced to subsidize the failure of the Mexican government to the benefit of multinational corporations who see cheap labor as Mexico's next best export. Our government, consisting of large numbers of political whores, is helping to keep the borders open, cheap labor flowing, and economic integration on a fast track regardless of the damage done to the working class of the U.S. The U.S. has survived before without 15-20 million Mexicans and Central Americans working here. The demand for this labor is artificial, destructive, and undermines our future. For your information, the U.S. is already technically insolvent. We don't need, can't afford millions of poorly educated, unskilled low wage earners in this country.

Thank you for pointing out the facts. We all have ancestors who came to this country as immigrants. Everyone I talk to is for LEGAL immigration because we are a melting pot country with immigrants from all over the world. Disregarding the Constitution and the Rule of Law is what we disagree with. There is a finite number that we can absorb as a country in any given year, and uncontrolled immigration will destroy this country from within.

2) See the part about the deposit? That would ensure that immigrants would want to leave if/when we demand or else they lose big money.

Everyone: As far as illegals are concerend, there's only 2 things you can do. Prevention and "papers please". I think everyone but congress supports prevention, namely building an f-ing wall/moat or whatever. I will never support "papers please" including bullshit like having to present papers to rent a place or even to work. As far as I'm concerned the current mess is because of failure of prevention.

Jobs will go to the lowest wage. The only difference is whether the job will be outsourced by a multinational or whether we get an immigrant to do it. If we get a legal immigrant, we get tax revenue. If not, we get nuthin.

Desperation will most likely be the continual modivation why illegals flood our borders - as you have stated.

Now, why is that?Reason:Their own country has let them downand is more than happy for anothercountry (sucker) to take on the responsibility of helping their impoverished citizens improve their livelyhood.

I have nothing against any group of people coming here to make a better way of life, as long as they do not impact the job opportunities and way of life for tax paying citizens here.

Our president claims to be so "patriotic". If he were, this is the stance he would have taken - to benefit all US citizens.

~~~

SPECTRE of Deflation said... George W. Groovy said... Hey Morons:By killing the immmigration reform bill you've actually opted for more of the same. That means more illegals, the current level of (non)enforcement and more chain migration from countries like Mexico, the Middle East, and China.

Most of you are so stupid that you are totally opposed to changing a system you know absolutely nothing about. As it stands, any illiterate can legally come to the USA as long they have a close relative.

Who does that favor? Why those same people you love to villify on this blog, the Mexicans. Your theoretical blue-eyed blonde from Scandinavia has no chance of coming here legally because they have no close family connection to sponsor them.

Immigration reform would have replaced family based immigration with a points system that favored job skills and education, something that most other countries have done already.

So in the words of one consevative pundit "instead of having the equivalent of the first ten picks of the NBA draft, we end up with the first ten names in the Tijuana phone book."

No temporary work program = more illegals. Again, countries like Canada have done this for seasonal and agricultural labor and it works reasonably well. People come and then they go because they know they won't find the door slammed shut next year. Is it perfect? No, but again it beats the H2 Visa program by a mile because by the time the paperwork is done here, the crops have rotted in the fields.

Granted, there were lots of problems with the bill that should have been addressed, but the current system is so dysfunctional, anything would have been an improvement. But none of you dummies could see anything beyond the so-called amnesty provision.

Whether you like it or not the debate over amnesty is already over. Unless America is prepared to mobilize a new Trail of Tears or risk becoming an international pariah on the order of Idi Amin's Uganda, these people are here to stay.

The "make it impossible to work and they will melt away" theory promoted by Talk Radio is a complete and utter fiction. They will all have to be dragged out of here kicking and screaming. The last western country that had the nerve to actually pull something like this off was Germany.

Making it tougher for them to live will only make them more desperate and desperate people will do anything. And yes by that time you should be afraid.

Hey Moron, there's no reason that the enforcement part of the Bill can't move forward, and screw the thought that allowing illegals who shagged ass across the border to be an immigrant issue. It's a crime brainiac.

SPECTRE of Deflation said... George W. Groovy said... Hey Morons:By killing the immmigration reform bill you've actually opted for more of the same. That means more illegals, the current level of (non)enforcement and more chain migration from countries like Mexico, the Middle East, and China._____________________

+++++Thanks for the article. IMHO, it highlights one of the biggest problems the supporters of this bill faced and did not overcome. The supporters NEVER DID articulate specifically how the bill would help America. So the Talk Radio crowd walked all over them....

Please read this - I have studied your entire post. I find some good recommendations there - like the distinction amongst corporations and the canal along the Southern border (Then again we could just usurp Mexico altogether... kidding, sort of).

I still disagree that we need more labor. If American companies want to leave the U.S. or offshore any jobs over the rank of level 1 skills, they should have 100% of their US-based assets seized and be excluded from any consumer or financial transactions within our country for the rest of time. Corporations are to be treated like people and treason is not to be taken lightly. We could coordinate this with our economic partners to prevent relocation to our partner countries.

At the same time, we should reduce the tax burden placed on corporations BY SPENDING LESS. By the same token, we cannot eliminate every aspect of workplace regulation; we don't want to treat our workers (or environment) like China.

My bottom line: If the cost of globalism is giving up everything this nation has achieved in the past 200 years, then f*ck globalsim altogether. There is more to America than an economy.-----------Question On REAL ID:My understanding is that REAL ID was removed from the amnesty legislation. What's up with REAL ID? What are its specifics?

I thought this was something positive, and figured being excluded from the bill would only anger conservatives wanting enforcement! I am quite libertarian but don't we need some kind of biometric system that is immune to forgery?

The reluctance to information gathering and tracking of every person inside America seems slightly paranoid. If you are doing nothing wrong, what is to fear? There is so much information in the world already; unless I raise some red flags, I assume I am invisible. I deal with large databases everyday and no-one ever looks at anything unless some anomaly sparks the investigation in the first place.

james dean said: "Then again we could just usurp Mexico altogether... kidding, sort of"

Why not? Annexation may be the best and least expensive long-term solution to the problems on our southern border. Make the Mexican states territories initially, and allow them to join the union when they meet the criteria.

Anonymous said... damn you people are not capable of following a simple a to b conversation. I was the one that said if illegals were blond you'd have no issue with them. Not one of the responses went directly to that point. All you racist fucks could spew was "yeah but Russia's population is declining", there are gang bangers in California and other such nonesense. ----------------------------------

I am a Latino of Mexican decent and fought alongside all those who stood against this elitist, globalist legislation. I find that those who keeping ranting about racism are the most ignorant with regard to their understanding of the big picture behind this legislation. The effort to legalize millions of illegals has nothing to do with justice, humanitarianism, or utilitarianism. BTW, most Mexican immigrants are highly transient and will return to Mexico if the opportunities here don't exist. I've seen this repeatedly. So pull your head out of your butt. And the gang problem you so flippantly dismiss is vastly more serious than you seem to understand. I know because I teach inner city Latino kids many of whom are here illegally or are children of illegals. The gang problems we now have are a direct result of lax government enforcement and la Raza open border activism.

Anonymous said... as for the comment about Japan not having immigration and their "doing just fine", this is partially true. they strictly limit immigration, and their economy has picked up in the last year or two, but demographically speaking they are sitting on a time bomb. the percentage of their population over 60 is rising rapidly because they, like most industrialized countries, aren't having enough kids to replace those who die off.

Macaca

June 29, 2007 12:27 AM

-------------------------

Japan is indeed doing just fine, and as for the demographic "time bomb" there is a very very very simple solution to it: raise the retirement age to collect public benefits. When the whole Social Security scam was started, most workers could only expect to collect it for a couple of years before kicking the bucket. That basically guaranteed that there were lots of people paying into the system and only a few collecting -- independent of people breeding like bunnies. Why is it desirable to overpopulate and deplete our natural resources (land, water, etc.)? I would emphatically say that it is not. There is no "need" to replace everyone that dies off. There are too many people as it is and everyone (especially future generations) would be better off if the planet's population were downsized.

Japan is plenty crowded and having a shrinking population is a good thing. If people just work a few years longer the system would be brought back into balance. The average Japanese is a lot healthier than the average American so working a few more years is not a problem for the average Japanese person.

As for the US, the ageing population is even less of a problem. Most Baby Boomers didn't save for retirement and their dreams of getting rich by flipping houses have now been shattered, so they'll be forced to work longer, especially as Social Security is cut back (it's cut every time the government lies about inflation, which is all the time). Given the generally poor health habits of most Americans, many will even die on the job. We just have to make sure we don't end up with an expensive socialized medicine system in which these slobs can foist the cost of their triple bypass onto the rest of society.

Bottom line: increasing the age at which public retirement benefits can be collected solves any so-called demographic "crisis." It's almost like magic, and it sure beats becoming a Third World country. Think quality over quantity.

Bitter Renter said... ... Until the republicans told you to start obsessing over illegal immigration, no one noticed. I guess you people don't realize that this issue is just something the republicans are using as their new rallying cry since the homo marriage thing has lost its luster.

...

June 29, 2007 3:52 PM

---------------------

If you say so, amigo.

Oh wait, weren't some of the top Repuglicans like GW the Chimperor and Traitor McCain in SUPPORT of amnestia? Yeah, OK amigo. The GOP told us to be against amnesty for illegals. Sure.

James Dean:Question On REAL ID:My understanding is that REAL ID was removed from the amnesty legislation. What's up with REAL ID? What are its specifics?--------------------------------------http://unrealid.com/what.html

The reluctance to information gathering and tracking of every person inside America seems slightly paranoid. If you are doing nothing wrong, what is to fear? There is so much-------------------------------------What is to fear is that governments kill more people than any terrorist or criminal ever could, especially those who do a particularly good job of keeping tabs on everybody. The govt also does a horrible job of keeping any kind of database secure so by coallescing tons of biometric data into one database just means that sooner or later someone will crack it with the effect that then no one will have any secure biometric data left.

THe fact is, *I* should be the one who determines what biometric info I chooseto use, if any.