Do we know what brand of mozzarella cheese Giordano's is now using? As best I can tell, the mozzarella cheese is reported to be whole milk mozzarella that is shredded from block. Stella was mentioned as a brand that was once used by Giordano's but that may no longer be the case.

Peter

The cheese hasn't changed. Stella WM but I don't think you can buy it.

But if we are talking Giordano's, what is the measuring stick? An objective standard that exists today and can be readily measured against by many tasters, or a historical (apocryphal?) recipe that cannot be verified by anyone, except maybe BTB or someone else who dined there regularly 40 years ago?

The measuring stick is the fact that there are no pictures on the internet, either here or elsewhere, of pizzas that look remotely like Giordano's, except these and a few of the pics I've shared lately. Chicago Rules!!!'s pizzas look great--probably better than mine--but he (or she?) didn't share much about them, other than the fact that the dough "was very similar to Buzz's." So the way I see it, there isn't a measuring stick. First of all because Buzz measures everything by volume, but also because I think his recipe is pretty far off the mark in at least one area. I'm not even sure if anyone has expressed a prospective Giordano's recipe in bakers' percents prior to the dough formulations I've shared lately.

All I know is that if the "inside information" I've shared recently is legit, even though it is almost 40 years old and has surely been changed more than once, then that information is probably still more accurate than any other information that has been shared either here or anywhere else on the internet. And I consider that very relevant information.

I'm not trying to pretend I'm any kind of expert when it comes to this kind of pizza, because I'm not. I've never even had Giordano's. But there's just no reliable information out there, and I knew after one try that I was probably closer to replicating this pizza than anyone else has been so far, at least with the dough/crust. Yeah, I'm impressed with my results so far, although I know there's a lot of room for improvement. You would be, too, if you had just accomplished what I feel like I've accomplished. And I may sound full of myself for a while. If I do, then shoot me down. But also realize that if I sound full of myself, it may just be that I'm simply trying to share what I think is some pretty valuable information (and that you're misinterpreting my intentions).

Just look at it this way, Garvey: After I speculated that the fat percentage in Giordano's dough is much less than half of what everyone else has tried, before any of this "inside information" came out, YOU seconded my low-fat interpretation. As far as I know, that had not happened prior to the other day. I think someone (probably Peter) may have speculated that the fat percentage should be lower than what everyone has tried prior to my participation, but I don't think anyone ever seconded that idea. Then the other day, you did. Which means you and I may have just permanently changed the direction of how most people approach their view of how to clone a style of pizza that previously had no direction.

Regardless of what the "inside information" says, I feel pretty sure that the fat percentage for this dough needs to be in the neighborhood of 6-8%. That's how I felt before this information was even shared with me. But to have such information available to perhaps confirm what I already thought I'd figured out on my own, I think that's big. Having said that, I think it's very unlikely that the hydration of Giordano's dough is a drop over 50%, even though the "inside information" says 58%. I like 48%, and I'm gonna stick with it for a while.

So you're right: the old recipes may be *better*. That is absolutely true. But that would also mean qualitatively and factually *different*. That's all. No judgment passed...just reiterating facts.

Yes, the "inside information" I've shared is different. We know that. Even the person who shared it with me acknowledged that it's not the same thing they're making today. I wasn't trying to say "this is the answer." It's not the answer, but it seems to be a useful tool that will ultimately help us figure out the answer.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

For 33 oz of dough (936 g), I'm using 21.19 oz (601 g) of flour. This amount of dough works really well for a 10" pan that's 2" deep (because it is enough dough to comfortably account for what will become scrap dough). If you're using a pan with different dimensions, let me know the dimensions so I can enter everything into my spreadsheet and tell you what the spreadsheet suggests. [EDIT: I've decided to make 33 oz dough batches for future 10" stuffed pizzas, rather than 30 oz of dough. With this change, I will divide the dough into a 17.67 oz (501 g) dough ball for the bottom skin and a 14.84 oz (421 g) dough ball for the top skin, with a target weight of 12.02 oz (341 g) for the bottom skin after trimming, and a target weight of 7.44 oz (211 g) for the top skin after trimming. That's a total weight of 19.46 oz (552 g) of dough after trimming. But in your case, you'll probably want to roll the top crust at least a little thinner (because you seem to have indicated a strong preference for thinner top crusts).]

Oh, wait. I just re-read your post, and you asked about 14".

Spreadsheet says to make 53.44 oz (1515 g) of dough for 14". Flour is 34.31 oz (973 g). Since you're using a higher hydration than me, your dough batch will probably end up weighing a little more than mine. Divide the dough into a dough ball of 28.7 oz (814 g) for the bottom skin and a dough ball of 24.74 oz (701 g) for the top skin. Your goal is to end up with a bottom skin of 20.78 oz (589 g) after trimming and a top skin of 14.23 oz (403 g) after trimming. But in your case, you'll probably want to roll the top crust at least a little thinner (because you seem to have indicated a strong preference for thinner top crusts).

EDIT: I deleted a lot of confusing rhetoric and added some stuff that I think is more accurate than what I originally said (as well as more confusing rhetoric).

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

The cheese hasn't changed. Stella WM but I don't think you can buy it.

Nate,

For some reason, Saputo, the parent of Stella, seems to be deemphasizing the sale of mozzarella cheese by Stella itself, since mozzarella cheese does not appear among the cheeses shown at the Stella website at http://www.stellacheese.com/. However, it appears that some Sam's Clubs are carrying 5-lb blocks of the Stella whole milk mozzarella cheese:

Can you tell me what weight of dough you used to make your 10" (small) Giordano's clones and how you arrived at that weight?

Peter

I have different numbers plugged into my spreadsheet now, but I think I remember the numbers I've used previously. (Yeah, I did remember correctly.)

All right, I have the bottom crust defined as TF=0.100. It occupies a 10" straight-sided pan and goes 1.75" up the side of the pan. (Can't remember why I entered 1.75" instead of 2".) Trimmed dough target weight for the bottom skin is 13.35 oz (379 g).

[EDIT: I remember why I entered 1.75" instead of 2". It's because my spreadsheet interprets my bottom dough skin as two pieces of dough (even though it's actually only one piece of dough). The spreadsheet sees my bottom skin as one flat skin that occupies the full 10" diameter of the pan, in addition to a hoop of dough that sits atop the flat skin. The hoop of dough occupies the remaider of the pan's depth. Since the pan is 2" deep and the hoop of dough sits on top of the other skin, the ring cannot possibly go a full 2" up the side of the pan; it can only go about 1/4" less than the full depth of the pan (because the flat part of the skin is about 1/4" thick). Which is why I enter 1.75" instead of 2". (If that confuses anyone, feel free to ask me about it.)]

I defined the top crust as TF=0.060. It occupies a 10" diameter and goes 0.75" up the side of the pan. Trimmed dough target weight for the top skin is 4.96 oz (141 g).

The only change I made is that I now have it set as TF=0.090 for both crusts. With this info plugged in, it says to use 12.02 oz (341 g) of dough for the bottom crust and 7.44 oz (211 g) of dough for the top crust.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

I want to make a Giordano's pizza using hi gluten flour (55-56% hydration, 8-10% oil) and want a 4 day cold ferment. I will obviously need some sugar right for that long ferment right? How much yeast should I use as well? I've decided to use my 12inch cast iron pan to bake this also.

For some reason, Saputo, the parent of Stella, seems to be deemphasizing the sale of mozzarella cheese by Stella itself, since mozzarella cheese does not appear among the cheeses shown at the Stella website at http://www.stellacheese.com/. However, it appears that some Sam's Clubs are carrying 5-lb blocks of the Stella whole milk mozzarella cheese:

For 30 oz of dough (850 g), I'm using 19.26 oz (546 g) of flour. This amount of dough works really well for a 10" pan that's 2" deep (because it is enough dough to comfortably account for what will become scrap dough). If you're using a pan with different dimensions, let me know the dimensions so I can enter everything into my spreadsheet and tell you what the spreadsheet suggests. Like others have said, divide the dough into two pieces that account for 1/3 and 2/3 of the total dough.

Since you're using a higher hydration than me, your dough batch should weigh a little more than mine. Also, right now I'm questioning the math I used in my spreadsheet because it's telling me to divide the dough into 28.7 oz (814 g) and 24.74 oz (701 g), which is not even close to thirds. However, the difference in pan size may account for this disparity (because it's not linear, or something like that).

Just to be safe, you might want to base it on 1092 g of flour.

Thanks Ryan. I've decided to use my 12in cast iron pan for my hi gluten experiment and will use 27oz of flour based off your calculations.

Thanks Ryan. I've decided to use my 12in cast iron pan for my hi gluten experiment and will use 27oz of flour based off your calculations.

In case you're interested, for top and bottom skins of TF=0.090 and a depth of 1.75", here's what my spreadsheet says for 12" (assuming straight sides, although I'm sure the cast iron has sloped sides):

I mentioned many posts ago that I think my sauce weight is probably a little higher than Giordano's (but I also said a day or two ago that I don't think there's such thing as too much sauce for this kind of pizza).

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

For some reason, Saputo, the parent of Stella, seems to be deemphasizing the sale of mozzarella cheese by Stella itself, since mozzarella cheese does not appear among the cheeses shown at the Stella website at http://www.stellacheese.com/. However, it appears that some Sam's Clubs are carrying 5-lb blocks of the Stella whole milk mozzarella cheese:

And if you come up with the Nixon era clone, awesome! No one will know, though, whether it is 1974 Giordano's or not. It'll just be good pizza. But maybe it'll somehow taste like the contemporary offering, and that's cool. But if it's nothing like what is offered now...you've got a "tree falling in the forest" phenomenon, more or less...

Peter:

I also think we're agreeing here. And nothing but love and respect for your work.

I also think that when companies start franchising, formulations may change to achieve similar results but with different equipment. So it's actually possible that the 1974 recipe gets us much closer in the home oven than the 2013 commissary formulation would. (I am reminded of the HRI travails here.)

And if you come up with the Nixon era clone, awesome! No one will know, though, whether it is 1974 Giordano's or not. It'll just be good pizza. But maybe it'll somehow taste like the contemporary offering, and that's cool. But if it's nothing like what is offered now...you've got a "tree falling in the forest" phenomenon, more or less...

The Mondako dough (which I mixed four days ago) is in the oven. I'm baking this one at 460 for around 35 minutes. For this 10" pizza, the total dough was about 19 oz. 13 oz of cheese. Pepperoni by feel. 16 oz of sauce (from the recipe). 21 minutes left on the timer.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

I want to make a Giordano's pizza using hi gluten flour (55-56% hydration, 8-10% oil) and want a 4 day cold ferment. I will obviously need some sugar right for that long ferment right? How much yeast should I use as well? I've decided to use my 12inch cast iron pan to bake this also.

Nate,

Yes, I would use about 1-2% sugar to be sure that there is enough food for the yeast and for crust coloration purposes. As for the amount of yeast (I assume IDY) to use, that can be tricky since it depends on things like finished dough temperature, the stability of your refrigerator temperatures, temper temperatures and duration, etc. However, having worked with high oil content doughs, namely, the Papa John's clone doughs, I found that oil quantity at the levels I was using did not impede the yeast performance that I could tell. So, for your purposes, you might use something like 0.20-0.25% IDY. Maybe I would err on the high side (0.25% IDY) but monitor the rise of the dough since you will be working at higher oil levels than I have used.

OK, so here's a teaser pic for y'all to enjoy while I compose what will probably be a pretty long post about tonight's pizza (with more pics, which hopefully will have turned out a little better than this one).

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

In any event, one ounce of the Stella whole milk mozzarella cheese has 7 grams of Total Fat, 4.5 grams of Sat Fat, and 20 mg of Cholesterol. The key nutrient is the Cholesterol because that ingredient is found only in the mozzarella cheese, the grated Parmesan cheese and the butter used to butter the pan in which the pizza is baked. Based on the Nutrition Facts given at Reply 85 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg53610.html#msg53610, and assuming that all three of those ingredients are reflected in the Nutrition Facts (I assumed one tablespoon each of the grated Parmesan cheese and the butter), the amount of the Stella whole milk mozzarella cheese used in a small (10") Giordano's cheese deep dish pizza comes to about 12 ounces by my calculation. Previously, I came up with 13 ounces but I didn't have the Stella Nutrition Facts at that time.

The first thing you'll probably notice about this pizza is that the crust had a really nice color. My first thought was that this must have resulted from using a different flour than I used with my previous stuffed pizzas. But then I remembered that I greased the pan with butter (salted) this time (for the first time), so that may have had something to do with the color. One thing I can say for sure is that the color didn't come from sugar, because there wasn't any sugar. Here's the formula for today's dough:

100% Mondako flour48% Ice water0.86% IDY0.9% Salt6% Shortening

I made this dough four days ago and refrigerated it immediately after mixing. When I removed the dough from the fridge today, I divided it into a 20 oz dough ball and a 10 oz dough ball, then allowed the dough balls to warm up on the counter, uncovered, for about an hour before rolling them.

In my opinion, the hydration percentage for this dough was a little too high; I had to use some bench flour to roll the dough. Also, I didn't like the sauce. It seemed too salty, and I really couldn't detect any other flavors or spices. I'm curious to find out what Nate has to say about the sauce after he makes his pizza. I'm also curious to find out how tomorrow's Power flour dough will turn out.

I'm not sure of the protein percentage for Mondako, but I'm guessing it's in the 12-13% range. I wasn't expecting anything great out of this flour because it hasn't really impressed me the 2 or 3 times I've used it for NY style, but I'd say it performed pretty well here.

Now that I've thought about it (while composing this post), I think the flour was probably responsible for the nice color of the crust, because I noticed very early during the bake that the top of the crust was getting dark (and I was worried that it would end up getting too dark). The top of the crust never came into contact with butter, so it must be the flour.

The first two pics show that this crust had a very nice color. The other three pics hopefully provide a good look at the crumb.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

If I had to guess, I would say that the browning of the crust was due to the caramelizing of the milk solids and lactose in butter during baking, with associated Maillard reactions. It's much like how butter melted in a pan turns brown.

The Mondako flour has a protein content of 11.9%. That is in bread flour territory. The Power flour has a protein content of 13.5%. That should make for a good test of how a high gluten flour performs in a Giordano's clone. A further test with that flour is how leftovers fare after a day or so, especially the texture of the crust. Does it become hard or overly chewy, or does it retain some softness?

For future reference on the Pendleton flours, you might take note of this document, where the protein numbers are on numbered page 5:

Also, a few things that are becoming clear to me as I look at the pictures I posted earlier:

1. If I was overly concerned with aesthetics, I'd say I used too much sauce on this pizza (16 oz). 14 or 15 oz is probably more appropriate.2. Judging by many of the pics of actual Giordano's pizzas, I've determined that the top skin really should be thicker than I've been making them.3. If you want a gooey cheese effect, don't remove the first slice until several minutes after cutting the pizza. I think the reason why my first slice never oozes cheese is because I always remove it right after I've cut through the cheese. I didn't take the pic at the top of this page until after I'd already eaten my first slice; after the cheese had a chance to become one again with the neighboring slice's cheese.

Whenever I make another batch of dough for this style, I will make a 33 oz batch instead of a 30 oz batch, scaling the dough into an 18 oz dough ball for the bottom skin and a 15 oz dough ball for the top skin. Unfortunately, tomorrow's pizza will probably be my last stuffed pizza for at least a couple weeks, because I need to eat better for a little while. (However, I still have another 5 lbs of Grande mozzarella in the freezer, which means I'll have no choice but to go on another pizza binge before long.)

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

There is a lot of sauce on the top of that pie and I think it works perfectly with the balance of the crust and generous cheese amounts.... skillful work on a really delicious looking pizza Ryan, congratulations!

Thanks. This wasn't high gluten flour. It was what I guess you'd call bread flour; maybe even borderline AP. Even though I assume this flour is a higher protein flour than I'd been using (Pillsbury AP and Gold Medal AP), the crust seemed like it was made of a lower protein flour. Tomorrow's crust will be made of high gluten flour (Power flour).

It's been cool being able to try all these different flours lately (especially since I didn't have to buy any of it). It really helps you see the bigger picture, which you can't see when you're locked in to just one or two different flours, like I had been for a long time. Especially with all the different styles of pizza I've been making lately.

Funny that you ask about the crumb because I was just looking at the last picture, trying to figure out if the crumb had that elongated bubble thing I was talking about earlier. I don't know if I can describe the crumb any better than the last picture does. When I ate the last slice, after it had been sitting out for a couple hours, I noticed that the crust was reasonably soft and easy to bite through, if that helps.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.