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I agree about the unique attacks, I like the idea. It adds surprise and challenge into the game, and it also adds personality to the game and really to pokemon in general, so I hope you choose to continue supporting the idea.

I don't know if you've found this bug yet, but I haven't seen it mentioned here; figured I'd post it just in case. I noticed that the music in Highland Town resets when you enter and exit the Poké Mart.

Also, I gotta say the Highland Town gym has been pretty fun so far. XD Won't spoil how, though!

Actually, there are many bugs in the hack which I haven't reported (this one being one of them). Reason for this is that I don't think reporting them is needed because none of them are game breaking or even harm you in any way. Makes the hack just sound unprofessional being buggy because I've seen others report bugs in their hacks which actually do much more than mine.

Here are pretty much all the bugs of Beta 3.

Code:

-Flying palette (may require ASM)
-That mart music thing (ASM work, haven't found/planned a way to fix it)
-Elemental Orb menu graphics (not really a bug but a minor oddity, should be fixable later)
-Two disappearing scenes (both easily fixable)
-Jin's sprite changes when you're sent out (possibly impossible to fix relating to how his room's map is loaded)
-De-Stone is described as Berry when a pokemon is holding it (ASM work, no idea what to do with this either, I've been searching for a possible routine that's causing it with no results)
-Warp sound (Little girl in The Capital entering her house, fixable)
-Ledge sound (Area 100 during an optional trigger event before visiting Oak, fixable)

There are a couple of more to come for Beta 4 while fixable things of these will also be worked with.

Quote originally posted by machomuu:

I agree about the unique attacks, I like the idea. It adds surprise and challenge into the game, and it also adds personality to the game and really to pokemon in general, so I hope you choose to continue supporting the idea.

I don't question having unique attacks. I agree, it's a nice mix-up. However, it still should be one that can be legally learned. Why not look at the Egg moves and assign one of them (or two if they come from the same father) to the opposing Pokémon? Poison Jab/Water Pulse/Muddy Water/Tickle, for example, is a legitimate moveset because Omastar could legitimately be the father, and it would even support having that in the party if you wanted to include it; meanwhile, Poison Jab/Water Pulse/Muddy Water/Confuse Ray is NOT legitimate as you need two fathers to pull it off (I don't think it gets passed from a mother that knows it as an Egg move).

You could also use a Move Tutor move, like Sleep Talk, so if you put it to sleep it can still attack you or Tickle you into weakness. Any of these can be legit., even a full four moves from that list (though unnatural).

I for one do not personally believe a Pokémon can suddenly learn Thunder because it lives in an electrical environment. If a Pokémon cannot learn a move, it cannot learn a move. If, however, surprise moves are thrown in like breeding moves and move tutor moves (in the former case having the father in the party is an excellent support for it as well), then I'm all for it.

Cyclone

__________________

"Y'know...my Emolga really wants to shock your Dedenne."

Cyclone. FC: 5327-1949-9511. Safari: Lampent, Pumpkaboo, and Golurk (Ghost). Champion of the GC11 Pokémon Challenge!
Breeder extraordinaire. Horrible battler. I take requests! Looking ahead to SSB3D for even more fun!

Pokémon Black National Pokédex completed on December 13, 2012.My Lv.7 UT Shiny Nincada (Hoenn) is now in Kalos for trade offers.

I don't question having unique attacks. I agree, it's a nice mix-up. However, it still should be one that can be legally learned. Why not look at the Egg moves and assign one of them (or two if they come from the same father) to the opposing Pokémon? Poison Jab/Water Pulse/Muddy Water/Tickle, for example, is a legitimate moveset because Omastar could legitimately be the father, and it would even support having that in the party if you wanted to include it; meanwhile, Poison Jab/Water Pulse/Muddy Water/Confuse Ray is NOT legitimate as you need two fathers to pull it off (I don't think it gets passed from a mother that knows it as an Egg move).

You could also use a Move Tutor move, like Sleep Talk, so if you put it to sleep it can still attack you or Tickle you into weakness. Any of these can be legit., even a full four moves from that list (though unnatural).

I for one do not personally believe a Pokémon can suddenly learn Thunder because it lives in an electrical environment. If a Pokémon cannot learn a move, it cannot learn a move. If, however, surprise moves are thrown in like breeding moves and move tutor moves (in the former case having the father in the party is an excellent support for it as well), then I'm all for it.

You'll get a Tentacool with Aurora Beam when breeding female Tentacool/Tentacruel with Shellder/Cloyster which knows Aurora Beam, right? Wouldn't you be able to do the same with any other male pokemon that knows Aurora Beam too or is that just one possible example in there?
What I'm trying to get with this is that, could you possibly breed female Tentacool with male Raichu which knows Thunder to get a Tentacool which knows Thunder if I hacked Thunder as Tentacool's egg move learning data so that it could learn it along with the other possible moves in 2nd gen?

You'll get a Tentacool with Aurora Beam when breeding female Tentacool/Tentacruel with Shellder/Cloyster which knows Aurora Beam, right? Wouldn't you be able to do the same with any other male pokemon that knows Aurora Beam too or is that just one possible example in there?
What I'm trying to get with this is that, could you possibly breed female Tentacool with male Raichu which knows Thunder to get a Tentacool which knows Thunder if I hacked Thunder as Tentacool's egg move learning data so that it could learn it along with the other possible moves in 2nd gen?

To answer your question, on Aurora Beam, no. The Pokémon has to both be a compatible breeding partner and has to know the move. However, looking at the Aurora Beam list, I would wonder whether Sealeo could breed into a Tentacool; I believe the water groups can breed with each other, no? This is more a matter of experimentation; even Bulbapedia may not have everything and could contain errors, so it's not a definitive source (nothing is). The only way to know if a certain Pokémon can breed Aurora Beam into another is by taking the pair to the daycare and trying, but they may very well not breed at all as well.

One convention Bulbapedia has is that a star is placed next to certain Egg moves. Such moves must be chain bred for this very reason mentioned above. For instance, this example shows ancestors of Togetic and Pikachu breeding Togetic's "Wish" into a newborn Pichu (later Pikachu as well), and that Pikachu knowing Wish can breed with Espeon to give an Eevee the move "Wish" as well. I happen to have such an Eevee (it just became an Espeon in fact, so I will be breeding more Eevee to get the "Eeveelutions" soon) and am being careful never to eliminate that move from it. Muddy Water is a chain breeding move in the case of the Tentacruel; it must be bred on an Omastar, then it can breed with Tentacruel to teach a baby the move.

Cyclone

__________________

"Y'know...my Emolga really wants to shock your Dedenne."

Cyclone. FC: 5327-1949-9511. Safari: Lampent, Pumpkaboo, and Golurk (Ghost). Champion of the GC11 Pokémon Challenge!
Breeder extraordinaire. Horrible battler. I take requests! Looking ahead to SSB3D for even more fun!

Pokémon Black National Pokédex completed on December 13, 2012.My Lv.7 UT Shiny Nincada (Hoenn) is now in Kalos for trade offers.

Cyclone is clearly dead-set on having tournament-legal Pokemon in a game that doesn't follow the structure of the official games to begin with. The rest of us who like the out-of-the-ordinary attacks don't care if a Tentacruel learning Thunder or a Pikachu learning Jump Kick is legal or not. If you want to give somebody something like a Seadra with Flamethrower, go ahead. I don't mind if I myself am not allowed to teach a Houndoom Scary Face or an Exeggutor Tri Attack or anything else like that and yet other characters have Pokemon that can do that; it makes the game challenging and surprising because I don't see it coming, and I'm okay with that.

I realize and understand that this game is designed to challenge the preconceived notions we have about the Pokemon games, by throwing attacks at us that can't ever happen in the official games and changing how the games normally progress. Cyclone seems to be looking for a game that follows the rules of the official ones, but I for one am not. In fact, this is what I like about this hack. If the hack didn't have these kinds of anomalies, it wouldn't be as exciting to me, because I already know all of the attacks each Pokemon can learn. So when I see these new attacks in battle, it takes me by surprise and now I have to adapt to this new rule in the game, which is fun because it gives me something new to discover.

In short, Cyclone is expecting something different from what is intended in this hack; I disagree with him. I still support the changes you've made to the established battle system and urge you to stick with them.

Personally, I think that unique moves should be looked at as if it were real-life rather than as a game mechanic. Animals adapt to their surroundings, environments, and the other creatures in their habitats, and AFAIK Pokemon are no different. They not only have different appearances based on where you find them, but also different abilities, niches, and dietary habits (in a way, humans are included in this). That's what makes the diversity of the world so interesting and unique, if all of the animals were, in a sense, the same, then it wouldn't be as interesting, and I think that applies to pokemon as well. That's why people are so interested in downloadable pokemon and event pokemon, because they have abilities and moves that they normally can't learn, and it's fascinating to think about how they got those moves, even though in reality it's just because they are meant to be special and have no real context behind them, and that really holds true in the main games, which makes them feel more limited.

In Dark Future, however, there would be context, subtle or otherwise, and that would make the game more challenging, interesting, unique, and overall, more fun. So I do feel that the unique moves should go beyond just egg-moves.

In short, Cyclone is expecting something different from what is intended in this hack; I disagree with him. I still support the changes you've made to the established battle system and urge you to stick with them.

Not at all. My point is that if this Tentacruel is going to know Thunder or another Electric move, all Tentacruel IN THIS HACK should be able to learn it in some fashion, be it by breeding with Pokémon that know the move (if any such combinations even exist) or just as a new level-up addition. It could even be a TM teachable. Just make it so that all Pokémon used by opponents are identical to the ones we can catch. If one isn't, such as in this case, then it should be added for ones we catch as well. Perhaps a special Move Tutor unlocked after you defeat it (making it impossible to learn until it opens up); he can even be the one that teaches your Tentacruel.

Cyclone

__________________

"Y'know...my Emolga really wants to shock your Dedenne."

Cyclone. FC: 5327-1949-9511. Safari: Lampent, Pumpkaboo, and Golurk (Ghost). Champion of the GC11 Pokémon Challenge!
Breeder extraordinaire. Horrible battler. I take requests! Looking ahead to SSB3D for even more fun!

Pokémon Black National Pokédex completed on December 13, 2012.My Lv.7 UT Shiny Nincada (Hoenn) is now in Kalos for trade offers.

Not at all. My point is that if this Tentacruel is going to know Thunder or another Electric move, all Tentacruel IN THIS HACK should be able to learn it in some fashion, be it by breeding with Pokémon that know the move (if any such combinations even exist) or just as a new level-up addition. It could even be a TM teachable. Just make it so that all Pokémon used by opponents are identical to the ones we can catch. If one isn't, such as in this case, then it should be added for ones we catch as well. Perhaps a special Move Tutor unlocked after you defeat it (making it impossible to learn until it opens up); he can even be the one that teaches your Tentacruel.

That's a fantastic idea, actually! I think that would be really neat if the Gym Leaders in this game could also serve as Move Tutors. It makes a lot of sense, too, since a Gym Leader is supposed to be the top trainer of a city or town, and serves as a specialist in their specific type. I imagine that all the other trainers in their gym must train under them as students in order to bring out the full potential of their Pokemon, so it's believable that a Gym Leader would offer to train your own Pokemon in a specific skill if you asked him or her.

Since they each have signature Pokemon that have attacks that can't be learned any other way, if you were to come back to them carrying one of those specific Pokemon, they could act as a Move Tutor and teach it those unique moves. I think that would actually be a really neat feature to add to the game! I certainly haven't ever seen that done before.

I think that if unique moves are kept then the moves should only be available to pokemon that are bred through inheritance. After all, it wouldn't really make sense for every one of a species to learn a move that a pokemon learned through adaptation. However, if the pokemon knows the move through unnatural means then I'd say that it's fair game.

In Pokémon Crystal, an old man visits the Goldenrod Game Corner every Wednesday and Saturday after the player has entered the Hall of Fame. He teaches three different moves for 4000 coins, two of which were TMs in Generation I and returned to that status in Generation III, and one of which later became a TM with the other two. These moves are breedable in the same fashion as TMs and HMs.

Does a "real" Move Tutor even exist in original G/S/C ? Although you may think Crystal has this feature implemented, I've to have say no. Practically means, I'd have to code that feature from scratch. So no, I won't be able to make gym leaders work as Move Tutors later on because such feature doesn't exist in Gen II games. As you can see in the example above, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are TM moves and are taught to the party pokemon according to TM learning table. Basically, all this script here does is to skip loading the following:
1) Click the selected TM in TM Pocket
2) Select use are clicked

I can make Tentacruel learn TM Thunder, Metapod TM Headbutt, and make Pichu have Jump Kick as one of its Egg moves. Not sure whether you can still get a Jump Kick Pikachu like Isaac's though.

But anyway, I'm not going to do anything more about it because implementing Move Tutors would require massive amount of coding, it would be a completely new feature "not introduced" in Gen II.

EDIT:
I was thinking this through too much like a programmer. Of course people who play this don't have to know this kind of feature doesn't exist but I can still make it work. You see, if I make it impossible to get TM Thunder, and make it so that after Pierce is beaten, he can teach you Thunder, that way I can make Tentacruel learn Thunder taught by Pierce as long as I make it so that Tentacruel can learn Thunder through TM table.

Possible to do and not hard at all! Well, not really. Actually, locating the code this "move tutor's" script here in Goldenrod accesses can be quite difficult but I'll try to track down the routine in Crystal. If I manage do that, I can implement this feature for gym leaders to teach special moves to your party. Unless I do some TM replacements, you can't get a Jump Kick through a "move tutor" though.

oh lol you dont understand breeding milksy?
No wonder you think tentacruel thunder can be legit, when it is NOT officially.

no way can tentacruel even learn that by breeding, to breed with tentacruel the other party must be from the SAME EGG GROUP and no pokemon from that egg group can learn Thunder, so Thunder cannot be passed on as a egg move.

If you think Thunder tentacruel is legit, i want more then. maybe surfing onix? (from a onix conditioned to swim in water?) or flamethrower electabuzz? (super charge the air or something).

Disregarding the first two statements (because he definitely understands breeding), under what conditions would a Onix learn surf? It'd die by drowning or be killed by the water's inhabitants. What's more, Onix don't live near bodies of water, from a geographical standpoint. Sure, it'd work if it were a one-of-a-kind pokemon like Surfing Pikachu with some sort of reason for its gaining the attack. Electebuzz would be the same case, there's not really much you could do with fire to make it learn it unless, say, it were a one-of-a-kind pokemon. The reason a Tentacruel learning Thunder works is because you could have concentrated electrically charged water in an area where Tentacruel are inhabitants (there are a number of causes), and as time went on they adapted to the electricity to be able to survive in the more concentrated areas.

...Granted, all of that is just me and my limited creativity, and that's not to say there couldn't be a Surfing Onix or Flamethrowing Electebuzz, I just don't see many situations where they would learn those moves (naturally, that is).

You're dang right, it's not OFFICIALLY legit. Yet it still doesn't make I couldn't include a Tentracruel knowing Thunder in my hack just because Gamefreak never did so.

On the other hand, I thought first you were a cool guy but just changed my mind about that a couple of posts ago.

Quote originally posted by machomuu:

...Granted, all of that is just me and my limited creativity, and that's not to say there couldn't be a Surfing Onix or Flamethrowing Electebuzz, I just don't see many situations where they would learn those moves (naturally, that is).

Both sound pretty much legit to me if there was a good reason for them knowing it.

Like I planned in my previous post, I've been trying to track down the routine for Crystal to load the Move Tutor assembly and found it but unfortunately, I can't simply transfer it to my Silver hack so that option won't do. Anyway, afterwards I tried to find what kind of codes are loaded when pokemon learns a move and succeeded in finding the main -and subcodes for this routine.

It requires some work but after planning it out, I should be able to make it so that gym leaders work as Move Tutors who teach your pokemon moves they wouldn't learn any other way (through TMs either). For now, I believe Ritch is going to teach your Sandshrew Sharpen, Brady Double-Edge to Sunflora, Arnold nothing at all, Isaac Jump Kick to Pikachu (and possibly Magnitude to Machoke) and Pierce Thunder to Tentacruel.

If this was any bigger task than what I know it to be though, I wouldn't go for it because I really don't see that much need for such add-on but it shouldn't be too much trouble so for now, I'll try to manage to do that (also once agains, goes for getting deeper in assembly while at it).

Oh and by the way, Dark Future got almost 30% of all votes during HotQ competition. Impressively good keeping an eye on the fact that most people around here don't want to play pokemon G/S/C hacks because of the "bad graphics". It was not time for it to win yet but perhaps next time will do? Anyway, thanks for everyone who voted and supported it!

I love this hack, i completed it about a week ago and I can say you have me hooked
But i like your idea of the tentacruel learning thunder and I also like the idea of the gym leader move tutor but if you werent doing that you could always do a trade where that tentacruel learned thunder if possibe.

I love this hack, i completed it about a week ago and I can say you have me hooked
But i like your idea of the tentacruel learning thunder and I also like the idea of the gym leader move tutor but if you werent doing that you could always do a trade where that tentacruel learned thunder if possibe.

I know on Route 15 I have to trade for a Rotom, the only one available in the game. I'm sure that wasn't where the trade was located, but I don't remember any trade for a Basculin off the top of my head. Granted, this isn't the thread to talk about that, so if you figure it out, get back at me via VM and I'll see what the Black equivalent is. I'm sure the difference is just a matter of a blue or red stripe.

Cyclone

__________________

"Y'know...my Emolga really wants to shock your Dedenne."

Cyclone. FC: 5327-1949-9511. Safari: Lampent, Pumpkaboo, and Golurk (Ghost). Champion of the GC11 Pokémon Challenge!
Breeder extraordinaire. Horrible battler. I take requests! Looking ahead to SSB3D for even more fun!

Pokémon Black National Pokédex completed on December 13, 2012.My Lv.7 UT Shiny Nincada (Hoenn) is now in Kalos for trade offers.

I know it's not an attack, but the whole thing is similar in concept. That's what I was getting at. You'd be getting an unusual Pokemon that you can only receive through an in-game trade. That's what BR25 was suggesting: giving an NPC a Thunder Tentacruel and allowing them to give it to you via an in-game trade.

I mean, personally, I'm more in favor of just having the Move Tutor concept, but that's not to say there couldn't be some event in the game where you get an unusual Pokemon via in-game trade. It might be useful somewhere.

I know it's not an attack, but the whole thing is similar in concept. That's what I was getting at. You'd be getting an unusual Pokemon that you can only receive through an in-game trade. That's what BR25 was suggesting: giving an NPC a Thunder Tentacruel and allowing them to give it to you via an in-game trade.

Yet again, it would be possible thing to do but was not implemented in G/S/C. Trade pokemon don't have special moves, their moveset is calculated according to their level just as if they were wild pokemon you caught.

Quote originally posted by Blue Emerald:

I mean, personally, I'm more in favor of just having the Move Tutor concept, but that's not to say there couldn't be some event in the game where you get an unusual Pokemon via in-game trade. It might be useful somewhere.

Also, not to say I would be bluffing being able to implement the move tutor concept, here you go!

Most of the code is created from scratch but I did use some parts of the code that's being executed when a move is taught to your pokemon through TM (the part when you can choose which move to replace with the new move) which also leads to "brown text box bug".

This was actually the most difficult thing I've ever done because I didn't have that much base code to work with. Now that you can get Sandshrew with Sharpen from Ritch, it's time to implement Double-Edge Sunflora, Jump Kick Pikachu and Thunder Tentacruel. Doing the rest will be easy though because I've already implemented this one and can use parts of it in the other move tutor scripts.By the way, Tentacruel won't be able to learn Thunder through TM and the scene of it learning that move isn't anything like this either.

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