Possible theory on the schools and the hacking.., I came up with a possible theory on this

ActivismsDec 4 2004, 08:55 PM
Post #1Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 2,649Joined: 5-November 04Member No.: 597
All I can say is wow, with the amount of information being passed around all the research going on, and the research teams, there is just so much to digest!!!!But now that I know that apparently Accenture bought out contracts for every single state, and helped Diebold and ES&S pull off their gameplans I'm beginning to get a final picture of what happened with these schools. Ok so, here goes. Karl Rove is busy setting up the action plan in the white house, since he can waltz right into AP's central voting tabulator.Right then there's Alan Gutierrez, a foreign brazillian guy who has a long history with his family. He helped set up the board of education in Michigan state and apparently is a teacher there. So then I think that Alan Gutierrez, taught a number of students at Michigan College, who felt down about everything, how to hack the election machines through backdoor Microsoft access program. He first developed the program more than a year ago, its called Momento, something like that. It allowed a group of students say, 5 to automatically insert lines of code which would force the tabulator in Michigan to count backwards. That code was originally made by Dr. Blass and the now completely forgotten ZeoSync, where he used to work, at Michigan state. It was originally small time but the technology grew and they used it in bank fraud. Watson's bank fraud scheme got found out everywhere so he killed himself, destroyed all of the documents on Accenture and left a note for his wife. Gutierrez erased all information of his dealings with Watson and the larger CNG global firm, burned his former writings and tried to dissapear. This all happened in Michigan, where his brother, Carlos, first endorsed the school. Meanwhile in Texas, Gutierrez's allies, who were also wearing elections official gear stuffed the main tabulator using Accenture's voter felon list, endorsed by Accenture, Tom Delay, and of course Karl Rove and fraud expert Jim Horn. Jim Horn's brother Timothy is on Accentures stock group or something like that so they were already in planning. Gutierrez hired Charles J. Cohen another official CNG Global employee to help teach students and other immigrants, without any permits. Once the group knew how to hack the machines the job was over. Cohen arrived in Florida back to help at Bay Point Schools and Miami University. Armando Jr., the younger Gutierrez guy helped arrange for all the connections. Joseph Klock took Cohen's aid, and through the MIT director, they then trained the group of students there the same thing. Using the remote access for the tabulator the students installed the malicious code automatically, and then through the backway stuffed the ballots in MS access using Accenture's famous voter felons once again. To be proud of his achievement, Jeb Bush stood by the entire time to watch over his little minions. Meanwhile in Ohio, other election officials, who were actually voting machine workers, got onto the tabulator and did the exact same thing, repeating the process. In Iowa and New Mexico, all they did was had the GOP in charge do it, along with the voting company employee, no network access needed. By the time it was through the popular vote was 3 million with no problem, with the aid of only a few hackers. To keep them all quiet checks were written out, but the checks were bogus. Not more than 20 people were involved, with certain election clerks being paid off, say, a few in Florida, a few in Ohio, and a couple around Texas and southern California. Congradulations on pulling off the perfect con job, they said. But for some bad reason there was witnesses, and it started falling apart, and a few insiders started squealing. Unfortunately for them, they could not find any of the alleged victims and started cutting ties. Karl Rove started cutting all ties with the perps so he wouldn't go to jail, thus the weed whacking ensues.At this point I think Karl will let Blackwell rot because he really doesn't give a damn about anyone he uses.
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PaineInTheArseDec 5 2004, 01:06 AM
Post #2Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 1,436Joined: 8-November 04From: Notlob, MassaBLUEsettsMember No.: 2,142
This all went completely over my head. Maybe it would have been better just to have sent this to FORMERCIA, I'm sure he and not more than 1% of the members would understand. --------------------
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."Mahatma GandhiU.S. Federal and Military Oath of Office"I, (name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."
ActivismsDec 5 2004, 02:07 AM
Post #3Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 2,649Joined: 5-November 04Member No.: 597
QUOTE(PaineInTheArse @ Dec 5 2004, 12:06 AM)
This all went completely over my head. Maybe it would have been better just to have sent this to FORMERCIA, I'm sure he and not more than 1% of the members would understand.
Well if you have followed everything that has been going on recently you can get the summary. Madsen was on radio in Vermont a day and a half ago revealing the whole thing.
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luaptiferDec 5 2004, 02:14 AM
Post #4Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 148Joined: 5-November 04From: MAMember No.: 85
regarding this theory, can you provide links to the doc'n that shows accenture bought out the contracts for all states? i've missed that apparently though i've not paid so close attention as you have. ah, and i see that essential cyberNET group connection is in there, can you please provide that link as well?rather, can you please provide the link that shows that cybernet systems is a part of the same group as cybernet group? noone has ever convincingly demonstrated that link as far as i've been able to find, can you?"Gutierrez hired Charles J. Cohen another official CNG Global employee""But now that I know that apparently Accenture bought out contracts for every single state, and helped Diebold and ES&S pull off their gameplans I'm beginning to get a final picture of what happened with these schools."TIAThis post has been edited by luaptifer: Dec 5 2004, 02:15 AM --------------------
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ActivismsDec 5 2004, 02:34 AM
Post #5Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 2,649Joined: 5-November 04Member No.: 597
QUOTE(luaptifer @ Dec 5 2004, 01:14 AM)
regarding this theory, can you provide links to the doc'n that shows accenture bought out the contracts for all states? i've missed that apparently though i've not paid so close attention as you have. ah, and i see that essential cyberNET group connection is in there, can you please provide that link as well?rather, can you please provide the link that shows that cybernet systems is a part of the same group as cybernet group? noone has ever convincingly demonstrated that link as far as i've been able to find, can you?"Gutierrez hired Charles J. Cohen another official CNG Global employee""But now that I know that apparently Accenture bought out contracts for every single state, and helped Diebold and ES&S pull off their gameplans I'm beginning to get a final picture of what happened with these schools."TIA

Maybe that clears up your bubble? Next time why don't you just ask someone instead of blindly accusing people.
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luaptiferDec 5 2004, 04:24 AM
Post #6Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 148Joined: 5-November 04From: MAMember No.: 85
QUOTE(Activisms @ Dec 5 2004, 02:34 AM)
...Maybe that clears up your bubble? Next time why don't you just ask someone instead of blindly accusing people.
bubble, wildly accusing? only if you are the same person as 'Auditors' over at BBV?! you've done the same thing here as you have done at BBV! that is, you've done NOTHING to clear things up, simply the same confusion of names or misleading efforts as always.

ok, so which one of those articles is the link between cyberNET group and cybersystems? is it really in there or is this the same game as played on the BBV forum?

and this one http://www.secinfo.com/dRqWm.34Se.htm#9ylis in reference to a suit on CYBERNET INTERNET SERVICES INTERNATIONAL, INC. which is, according to my original research, linked to cyberNET group but which has no relationship to cybernet systems.ok,

so i have not looked into the accenture links you provide but given your presentation of evidence on BBV's boards, i half expect that i'll look into the accenture links and find they don't say what you claim they say.and, to ensure people here know what's up, just as you do on the BBV forum regarding the supposed cyberNET group link to cybersystems, you throw out lots of links but none of them establishing your claim that cyberNET group is legally or fiduciarily linked to cybersystems. perhaps here, on this board, you will present evidence of a direct link. on the BBV forum, the several times i've requested it, you've refused to do so. and as a result, now, you've got people on DU, on BBV, on this forum, and on dKos now, apparently thinking there's a link between the two.

and, do i have it correctly, that it's the cybersystems link upon which the accenture connection depends? is that why it's so important to make that link?

and NOW you're posting this same crap at daily kos?! you';re the one feeding this all to jeff fisher?!

btw, the only links i can find are of cyberNET group with CyberNET Engineering, Stryon (Halcyon), Cyberco Holdings, Cyberco Inc, Cybernet Asia Pacific, and the original German internet business they bought.and i'm sure you've seen this document showing that cybernet systems corporation has nothing to do with any other company or those groups, haven't you? in fact, it was cybernet systems corp at which charles j cohen worked:

http://woodtv.triton.net/news/cybernet/cybernet.pdfi think you should be very careful Activisms/Auditors/BlogVote. so many people have shot your crap down on three different forums now (will be four @ dailykos) but you continue the same game.just what is your grand plan??? --------------------
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rayray222Dec 5 2004, 04:27 AM
Post #7Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 58Joined: 15-November 04Member No.: 3,289
damn. I love this forum.
MerrieDec 5 2004, 04:45 AM
Post #8Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 237Joined: 5-November 04Member No.: 128
Well, if nothing else, it would make a terrific novel and then movie. I'd write it quickly and sell the rights. Then, when you're rich, you can buy a chunk of Accenture or Cyber something and get this mess fixed.
ActivismsDec 5 2004, 04:48 AM
Post #9Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 2,649Joined: 5-November 04Member No.: 597
QUOTE(luaptifer @ Dec 5 2004, 03:24 AM)
bubble, wildly accusing? only if you are the same person as 'Auditors' over at BBV?! you've done the same thing here as you have done at BBV! that is, you've done NOTHING to clear things up, simply the same confusion of names or misleading efforts as always.ok, so which one of those articles is the link between cyberNET group and cybersystems? is it really in there or is this the same game as played on the BBV forum?

is in reference to a suit on CYBERNET INTERNET SERVICES INTERNATIONAL, INC. which is, according to my original research, linked to cyberNET group but which has no relationship to cybernet systems.ok, so i have not looked into the accenture links you provide but given your presentation of evidence on BBV's boards, i half expect that i'll look into the accenture links and find they don't say what you claim they say.and, to ensure people here know what's up, just as you do on the BBV forum regarding the supposed cyberNET group link to cybersystems, you throw out lots of links but none of them establishing your claim that cyberNET group is legally or fiduciarily linked to cybersystems. perhaps here, on this board, you will present evidence of a direct link. on the BBV forum, the several times i've requested it, you've refused to do so. and as a result, now, you've got people on DU, on BBV, on this forum, and on dKos now, apparently thinking there's a link between the two. and, do i have it correctly, that it's the cybersystems link upon which the accenture connection depends? is that why it's so important to make that link?and NOW you're posting this same crap at daily kos?! you';re the one feeding this all to jeff fisher?! btw, the only links i can find are of cyberNET group with CyberNET Engineering, Stryon (Halcyon), Cyberco Holdings, Cyberco Inc, Cybernet Asia Pacific, and the original German internet business they bought.and i'm sure you've seen this document showing that cybernet systems corporation has nothing to do with any other company or those groups, haven't you? in fact, it was cybernet systems corp at which charles j cohen worked:

i think you should be very careful Activisms/Auditors/BlogVote. so many people have shot your crap down on three different forums now (will be four @ dailykos) but you continue the same game.just what is your grand plan???
Luptaifer, you have been debunked and you never referred to anything and instead CONVENIENTLY inferred I was the same as auditors and half those people!No I'm sorry you're wrong, I have worked with them, and that's it! And its staring you right in the face. Its been proven once and for all the companies you claim aren't linked, are directly linked to eachother, for a fact so stop fumegating the issue. Read the facts, and give it up finally. The fact is they've always been linked!

Do you get it now?? Any more black and white, would it have to get for you? Its a fact they're the same!!! Period. I even was looking at the SEC report Andy talked about and Watson the III owns most of the shares for Cybernet systems and has been on the company roster for 3 years!!!
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FormerCIADec 5 2004, 04:55 AM
Post #10Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 407Joined: 5-November 04Member No.: 144
QUOTE(PaineInTheArse @ Dec 5 2004, 01:06 AM)
This all went completely over my head. Maybe it would have been better just to have sent this to FORMERCIA, I'm sure he and not more than 1% of the members would understand.
I think it's going to take more than us bloggers to sort this all out. What we need is a bunch of auditors from the SS and FBI to track all of th bread crumbs down and get this whole mess nailed down. It's probably not going to happen as long as Fearless Leader is calling the shots, so let's help him pack his bag and have President Kerry appoint some independent groups to sort this all out and bring the perps to justice.--------------------
"Be not intimidated... nor suffer yourselves to bewheedled out of your liberties by any pretense ofpoliteness, delicacy, or decency. These, as they areoften used, are but three different names forhypocrisy, chicanery and cowardice."- John Adams
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luaptiferDec 5 2004, 05:07 AM
Post #11Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 148Joined: 5-November 04From: MAMember No.: 85
QUOTE(Activisms @ Dec 5 2004, 04:48 AM)
Luptaifer, you have been debunked and you never referred to anything and instead CONVENIENTLY inferred I was the same as auditors and half those people!No I'm sorry you're wrong, I have worked with them, and that's it! And its staring you right in the face. Its been proven once and for all the companies you claim aren't linked, are directly linked to eachother, for a fact so stop fumegating the issue. Read the facts, and give it up finally. The fact is they've always been linked!

Do you get it now?? Any more black and white, would it have to get for you? Its a fact they're the same!!! Period. I even was looking at the SEC report Andy talked about and Watson the III owns most of the shares for Cybernet systems and has been on the company roster for 3 years!!!
Activisms, just because you've successfully misled him with the same info you're posting elsewhere...it's something akin to a circular argument :-) it's the same stuff you just posted as BlogVote on the dailkos. you're not getting a very receptive audience there from the skeptics.

Exscuse me? You're the one misleading everyone going into the topics, posting about emails you know nothing about. If you even cared about this, besides discrediting investigators you would have provided proof long ago the claims were wrong.You haven't, you don't care, and by the way you've been found out. I have all the evidence even sitting in my inbox that shows you and Cannon were all complete liars.
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luaptiferDec 5 2004, 12:10 PM
Post #13Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 148Joined: 5-November 04From: MAMember No.: 85
QUOTE(Activisms @ Dec 5 2004, 05:14 AM)
Exscuse me? You're the one misleading everyone going into the topics, posting about emails you know nothing about. If you even cared about this, besides discrediting investigators you would have provided proof long ago the claims were wrong.You haven't, you don't care, and by the way you've been found out. I have all the evidence even sitting in my inbox that shows you and Cannon were all complete liars.
Activisms, i'm posting nothing about emails, i'm posting about your/Auditors/BlogVote's long invalidated assertion that the cyberNET group has anything to do with any of the companies you claim. you've repeatedly had the claims explicitly invalidated and never offered the evidence to the contrary despite many requests to do so. and you/Auditors/BlogVote then proceed to build grand conspiracies off of the invalid foundation and try to suck Jeff Fisher, Greg Palast, and Wayne Madsen into believing them. what can anyone think but that you are attempting to set them up? and that puts you in the league with Rove the Rat! --------------------
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luaptiferDec 5 2004, 03:01 PM
Post #14Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 148Joined: 5-November 04From: MAMember No.: 85
QUOTE(Activisms @ Dec 5 2004, 05:14 AM)
Exscuse me? You're the one misleading everyone going into the topics, posting about emails you know nothing about. If you even cared about this, besides discrediting investigators you would have provided proof long ago the claims were wrong.
Activisms/Auditors/BlogVote i really cannot discern the motives inside your head and heart. but, first, i (and others) long ago DID provide proof that the claims were wrong. and my most recent reiteration of that proof rides higher in this thread disproving your claim that Cohen worked for CNG when he really worked for Cybernet Systems Corporation. it's always that leap you/Auditors/BlogVote make from CyberNET Group to other companies that is the fundamental problem. it's been disputed many, many times and you continue to make the claim despite the severalfold proof to the contrary. why is this?!?perhaps because the extension to a wider conspiracy that you/Auditors/BlogVote continue to attempt to establish rests fully upon that linkage? and resting fully upon that lnkage, if a real story developed, that single link would be the 'forged AWOL memo' that undermines it when it hit the mainstream media. THAT is why i won't let your claims stand undisputed!!! and that is why i suspect your motives. why continue building your story on facts that have been disproved?!
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PaineInTheArseDec 5 2004, 03:32 PM
Post #15Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 1,436Joined: 8-November 04From: Notlob, MassaBLUEsettsMember No.: 2,142
QUOTE(PaineInTheArse @ Dec 5 2004, 02:06 AM)
This all went completely over my head. Maybe it would have been better just to have sent this to FORMERCIA, I'm sure he and not more than 1% of the members would understand.
Then I am sure that General Ashcroft has sent his troops to investigate, confirm and procscute.Right. --------------------
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."Mahatma GandhiU.S. Federal and Military Oath of Office"I, (name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."
FormerCIADec 5 2004, 04:20 PM
Post #16Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 407Joined: 5-November 04Member No.: 144
QUOTE(PaineInTheArse @ Dec 5 2004, 03:32 PM)
Then I am sure that General Ashcroft has sent his troops to investigate, confirm and procscute.Right.
General Ashcroft is now a lowly civilian like us. The troops have been confined to barracks and God's army is on the loose, smiting the truth, wherever it may be found. This post has been edited by FormerCIA: Dec 5 2004, 04:22 PM --------------------
"Be not intimidated... nor suffer yourselves to bewheedled out of your liberties by any pretense ofpoliteness, delicacy, or decency. These, as they areoften used, are but three different names forhypocrisy, chicanery and cowardice."- John Adams
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XicanoPwrDec 5 2004, 06:01 PM
Post #17NewbieGroup: MembersPosts: 5Joined: 5-December 04Member No.: 3,583
Activisms you are Auditors from Blackboxvoting.org? If not, what happened to him?
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luaptiferDec 5 2004, 07:24 PM
Post #18Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 148Joined: 5-November 04From: MAMember No.: 85
Activisms/Auditors/BlogVote chain of misleading non-evidence campaign laid out here:

in three part summary by bozos
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XicanoPwrDec 6 2004, 12:07 AM
Post #19NewbieGroup: MembersPosts: 5Joined: 5-December 04Member No.: 3,583
1. Can you explain how ChicanoPwr is spreading disinformation and what information is ChicanoPwr speading that is it false. I like to believe someone is innocent until proven guilty. So far there is no evidence of misinformation, just guilt by association and this also true for Andy.2. Bozos, "Eventually I came up with some ideas to trick him." What gives Bozos the right to be the blog police. If Auditor perfers to be persistent in trying to convince us about CyberNet, let him do it. It seems to me the only one bothered by this situation is Bozos. If you noticed those who thought that Auditors had something and then figure he is wrong stop contributing. So, why is it Bozos feels he has to champion the cause. What gave him the right. One can conclude I am not the only with this belief, the Admin of DU also thought he went to far in his zeal to uncover the truth and therefore banned Bozos. This type of zeal is very similar to Joe McCarthy and J Edgar Hoover in trying to find the communist or with the current administration in seeking out terrorist.3. luaptifer, you seem like a person who can look at the information before you and make logical choices. The reason I ask, I do not understand how you justify someone who practices deception. Look at the actions of Bozos' zeal to gun for Auditor, he went so far to deceive Auditor by faking his identity more than once. "I posted as Amy Riderman" and "I posted as Shadowzombie at BBV.org." Bozos not only deceived Auditors, but he also deceived other members of BBV by raising false hopes. Considering Bozos intentions were to "smoke out" a lier, he himself lied to innocent members of BBV. Remember two wrongs do not make a right. It is ironic, as Dems we critize Bush and Company for deceiving the American public to get us to believe in their lies with the harsh ideology of "you are with me or against me." Well, Bozos is also practicing the same ideology. By not condiming Bozos actions, similar to DU, we are opening ourselves to other possiblities of deception. Since he was willing to fake his identity just to prove his point against Auditors, how can we be sure he will not do it again when another person disagree with him.4. I understand, all of these actions is meant to disprove Auditors/Activisms. But these actions are all leading down to the same road, censorship. The same issue we Dems critize Republicans when comes to books, material in the schools, or what is aired on TV. Isn't the arguement we make, "if you don't like it, don't buy it, don't watch, just move on. Let the people decide." Well, asking someone to be banned because we disagree with the information happens to fall a long the lines of the ideology of the Republican Party. Shouldn't you allow the people to decide if Auditors evidence is valid or not. Do you and Bozos distrust a persons decision in deciding whether Auditors evidence is valid or not. Remember, the Republicans also think we can not make the right decision therefore, they feel need to take on a parental role.
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luaptiferDec 6 2004, 01:47 AM
Post #20Advanced MemberGroup: MembersPosts: 148Joined: 5-November 04From: MAMember No.: 85
QUOTE(XicanoPwr @ Dec 6 2004, 12:07 AM)
1. Can you explain how ChicanoPwr is spreading disinformation and what information is ChicanoPwr speading that is it false. I like to believe someone is innocent until proven guilty. So far there is no evidence of misinformation, just guilt by association and this also true for Andy.2. Bozos, "Eventually I came up with some ideas to trick him." What gives Bozos the right to be the blog police. If Auditor perfers to be persistent in trying to convince us about CyberNet, let him do it. It seems to me the only one bothered by this situation is Bozos. If you noticed those who thought that Auditors had something and then figure he is wrong stop contributing. So, why is it Bozos feels he has to champion the cause. What gave him the right. One can conclude I am not the only with this belief, the Admin of DU also thought he went to far in his zeal to uncover the truth and therefore banned Bozos. This type of zeal is very similar to Joe McCarthy and J Edgar Hoover in trying to find the communist or with the current administration in seeking out terrorist.3. luaptifer, you seem like a person who can look at the information before you and make logical choices. The reason I ask, I do not understand how you justify someone who practices deception. Look at the actions of Bozos' zeal to gun for Auditor, he went so far to deceive Auditor by faking his identity more than once. "I posted as Amy Riderman" and "I posted as Shadowzombie at BBV.org." Bozos not only deceived Auditors, but he also deceived other members of BBV by raising false hopes. Considering Bozos intentions were to "smoke out" a lier, he himself lied to innocent members of BBV. Remember two wrongs do not make a right. It is ironic, as Dems we critize Bush and Company for deceiving the American public to get us to believe in their lies with the harsh ideology of "you are with me or against me." Well, Bozos is also practicing the same ideology. By not condiming Bozos actions, similar to DU, we are opening ourselves to other possiblities of deception. Since he was willing to fake his identity just to prove his point against Auditors, how can we be sure he will not do it again when another person disagree with him.4. I understand, all of these actions is meant to disprove Auditors/Activisms. But these actions are all leading down to the same road, censorship. The same issue we Dems critize Republicans when comes to books, material in the schools, or what is aired on TV. Isn't the arguement we make, "if you don't like it, don't buy it, don't watch, just move on. Let the people decide." Well, asking someone to be banned because we disagree with the information happens to fall a long the lines of the ideology of the Republican Party. Shouldn't you allow the people to decide if Auditors evidence is valid or not. Do you and Bozos distrust a persons decision in deciding whether Auditors evidence is valid or not. Remember, the Republicans also think we can not make the right decision therefore, they feel need to take on a parental role.

XicanoPwr, you make some very good points that i aim to address but the bulk of it's gonna have to be tomorrow. but i would ask you to consider this question, perhaps tomorrow also.it was not just bozos or myself, it was SEVERAL people that kept driving the point that BV/A/A for weeks refused to make any attempt to support his claims. you may be referring to a post at DU where i mentioned your involvement. it was not to attempt to incriminate or demean you. it was towards making two, maybe three points:1. that the ability of Auditors to sustain his misinfo campaign sowed the seeds of its legitimacy, exactly in the way that the bush admin did with saddam/911/iraq. the longer the lies were allowed to fester unrefuted, the more people were conditioned to accept the lie that saddam was linked to 911 and legitimized the CONs invasion.2. that you'd been used by Auditors (on DU I used the term 'screwed')3. that the inability to persuade those collaborating with Auditors helped establish the first point. i am currently biased so my memory surely reflects this fact but i don't recall YOU guys calling Auditors to prove his claims nor, if you believed him deceptive, to stop spreading them. again, i attribute this to the fact that somehow, despite all the evidence thrown at Auditors, you guys wanted to believe him. i understand the want to believe a trusted collaborator but, back to the saddam model. what more could have been thrown at Auditors and you guys to make him support his claims or to make you guys make him own up?! i really have no idea as i'm trained as a scientist to require the facts before i make the logical extension. if the data support the hypothesis, go with it. if not, backburner or discard it. imho, it was up to you guys to make him prove it since, on the first order, it was your efforts that were directly abused.i'm sorry you were deceived by Auditors or Bozos. but that's the thing with this administration, for example. how do you get those blinded by belief to see the light of truth? just let it be when it impacts the very core of a larger agenda, preventing another 'memogate'? though i don't like deception, what other means did bozos have to drive the point home, to expose him since Auditors clearly had an agenda incompatible with the facts?i dunno either. i'll get back to the rest of this tomorrow, thanks for making your points thoughtfully.