Okay, is this a totallly new order or were 175's part of the original big order? This doesn't make much sense 'cuz I thought they have ordered some CRJ705's as well which sit about 75 passengers or so with dual class. Unless all the CRJ's are going to JAZZ, and all the ERJ's are for Mainline. Still makes you go hmmmmmmmm...............

I'll a little confused at you're comments... the 705's are going to Jazz they are not ever going to be part of the mainline operation so what's the problem?? Jazz isn't air canada, their is no economical reason to operate the same fleet at Jazz and Mainline, if their were then Jazz would be flying a318's. Infact it makes more sense to do what AC is doing, they are sending all of the bombardier aircraft to Jazz, and keeping the two jungle-jets in the mainline. Should the need/reason ever arise to sell off Jazz you wont be splitting up a fleet of CRJ's, you have two totally independant types of equipment. I'm sure you'll have an anti AC reply to that but I think it's a valid enough choice, the ERJ's will be configured differenlyt and be used for a different purpose then the CRJ's.

"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada

While the feds pay lipservice to the notion of stopping to protect AC, as if they had done the refinancing instead of the shareholders, the fact is they could make AC's life miserable if it hadn't ordered some Bombardier aircraft. If you think otherwise, you're a fool.

The feds are out there prioritizing the international bilateral negotiations that would give AC the rights it needs to launch new international routes. I may be naive, but I am not at all certain another president of AC could have resisted the pressure from Ottawa to buy only from Bombardier, when in fact AC probably wanted to go all Embraer. Mind you, the Teplitsky mediation/arbitration would have ensured that even had AC ordered only from EMB or only from BBD, that the order would have been split between mainline and Jazz. In the end, what really matters is the price AC is paying in both cases, the terms of labor agreements applicable to both aircraft types, and the routes AC assigns each aircraft.

That's far more important in the long run than whether AC ordered from one or two manufacturers.

"Yes, there is. Mx and operational commonality would ensue. An order for 705's and 175's from AC group airlines operating over the same networks is simply.....ludicrous."

Jazz and ACAMX are two different organization's, Not quite sure what you mean about Operationally, but crews working on the aircraft work for two different companies and do not cross over, only in the major hubs would you have an ACA ramp, or Ground Passenger Agent working a jazz flight and even then there is minimal training for those employees, the aircraft are dispatched from two different operations centres in two different cities at two different companies owned by the same parent. This is common through the US where you have a number of airlines operating both types in their fleet. While they have the same number of seats (or close) both airplanes are assigned to two different types of operations.

"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada

Operationally, but crews working on the aircraft work for two different companies and do not cross over, only in the major hubs would you have an ACA ramp, or Ground Passenger Agent working a jazz flight and even then there is minimal training for those employees, the aircraft are dispatched from two different operations centres in two different cities at two different companies owned by the same parent.

Yawn. They are BOTH AC companies! They could achieve efficiencies by work sharing! You are making escuses for continued inefficiecies.

Yes they could you are perfectly correct, but unfortunatly the reality is that the labour contracts, working agreements, and organizational structure is such that they CAN NOT! And so given that they are still two separate operations with different requirements, different employees, all owned by the same parent company. Operating a fleet of CRJ's in one operation and a Fleet of ERJ's in the other would cost them about the same as if they had all of one or all of the other. The pays scales would still be different, the MX would still be different employees would stillbe different and costs would still be different, even though they are all the same company!

"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada

I am sure Embraer offered AC a very attractive financial package on these planes, especially since their orderbook was seriously hurting after their original launch customer (and only customer to date) Jet Airways backed out of their deal due to financial difficulties.

Cheap planes can almost always offset a deficiency in operational efficiency. I'm surprised that a veteran of the industry like Yyz717 didn't notice this while the 21-year old student like Slawko did. Maybe Neil is getting forgetful and careless in his old age....

1. The downdrage was well anticipated at BBD HQ. It is a no-surprise event. I don't say it is a good thing. Life will be easier with a triple AAA but it will not stop any project.

2. Chapter 1: It was a mistake and lack of vision. Agree with you. They beleive that CRJ-900 will sell like hot cake.
3. Chapter 2: This is non-event in BBD Transport life. North-Americain poeple focus on N-Am. news. At that time, we had huge trouble with Virgin train and others delivrance in UK. That was a big issue for BBD Transport. (it is now resolve). Still, N-A newspaper was only talking about Amtrak. It was peanuts compares to UK problems.
4. Chapter 3: We were on hedge of CF issue. It resolved a short term CF issue. It had no synergy between BRP and BBD.
5. Chapter 4: Same as point 2. NA operations for BBD Transport is only 15% of revenues. Revenues from Germany only is bigger than whole NA. Still, a non-event.

The biggest mistake was to put on ice the BRJ-X. BBD has no product to compete with Embraer on RJ. However, they have a very good portofolio of Business aircraft.

"Ordering 175s and 705s is idiocy of the highest order to airline efficiency and fleet planning."

You are correct in a logical and a "sane" world... which is not the case with AC and the political environment it operates in. By ordering the CRJ705, AC has effectively introduced a different aircraft type into its fleet.

As has already been pointed out, the CRJ705 has no LRU & virtually no Mx commonality with the CRJ200, and requires a different simulator for pilot training. On the other hand, the E175 has 89% LRU commonality with the E190, and 100% cockpit and flying qualities commonality.

And from a fleet planning perspective, with a "rump order" of CRJ705s, AC has lost out on the opportunity to provide a seamless and superior pax experience from mainline to Jazz.

AC would have had a even better package if they had originally ordered the E175s instead of the the CRJ705s.

How do you know. A year later, Embraer is still looking for a launch customer for the 175. It was the only model without a confirmed order. AC could have picked up 170s, perhaps in the aftermarket, as some American carriers seek to reschedule orders. The fact AC took the 175 instead of 170s, which would have been perfectly adequate for most missions, suggests that Air Canada played off Embraer against Embraer.

Air Canada has emerged from bankruptcy restructuring with $1.1 billion in new equity and financing for their new regional jets from General Electric. Air Canada, after making an operating profit of about US$200 million in the most recent quarter, now has cash of about $1.9 million on hand, plus the GE financing.

The regional jet purchases were always part of the restructuring/new business plan.

The deferral of 345s occured at the outset of the bankruptcy process in April 2003. Later, when the airline was much further along in implementing its new plan - after it had negotiated various concessions - it revisited the issue of the two 345s, which Airbus had not remarketed. It isn't clear if those two planes were being held for AC, or whether there was no market at the time for them.

Hold on you guys. Fleet commonality? I'm not so sure that's all it takes to base a decision on introducing a new aircraft type into an airline's fleet. Plus, as was pointed out earlier, the CRJ-705's will go to Air Canada's JAZZ subsidiary, which in essence, is a separate entity from Air Canada. I also heard that Air Canada will gradually start phasing out the turboprop fleet currently operating under the JAZZ brand. And what about the CRJ-200? some people suggested here that it's quite different from its younger sister (CRJ-700). I'm not an airline expert, but I doubt it if there were no significant benefit sharing beween these 2 aircraft types.

Who knows what Mr. Milton's the overall startegy is? Some people here have been shouting insulting terms such as "idiocy" and so on, thinking that they know more about the airline industry than Mr. Milton himself. We all know very well that, due to competitive reasons, Air Canada can only reveal minimal information concerning its long term startegy and underlying "deals" behind these new aircraft orders.

It's also good to remember that the separate fleet type consideration is blunted somewhat by the fact Bombardier's assembly plant is right next door to Air Canada's maintenance base on Cote de Liesse Road in Montreal, and that Canadair has its training centre - with several simulators - within walking distance. When AC needs parts or training for the 705, it's all next door. It doesn't have to stock a large inventory of rotables. That's why the CRJs are maintained by AC in Montreal - even though the next largest plane handled by Montreal heavy maintenance is the A330. (A319/320/321 go to Winnipeg, and 767s, I believe, to Vancouver). Furthermore, the 705 uses CF34-8C5 engines, while the EMB uses the virtually identical CF34-8E. There is near total parts commonality between the two models. That would also apply to some other systems throughout the EMB and CRJ705 aircraft.

25 Planemaker
: And what about the CRJ-200? some people suggested here that it's quite different from its younger sister (CRJ-700). I'm not an airline expert, but I d

26 AC7E7
: The Cdn govt recently agreed to back the loan to fund the AC CRJ purchase. So once again Cdn tax payers are supporting AC. The Canadian government is

27 Sebring
: "...and that Canadair has its training centre - with several simulators - within walking distance" AC will be getting their own E190 simulator anyway.

28 Planemaker
: What is true is that it doesn't have to engage in that [simulator] overhead for the CRJ-705, irrespective of what it does for the 175-195. For the sma

29 Accargo
: Planemaker, one thing you don't seem to understand is that the BBD products are going to Jazz and the Embraer products are going to Mainline. Part of

30 Planemaker
: "Part of the business plan is that Jazz is a SEPARATE company from AC." Of course, that is why Robert Milton cuts the Jazz 70-seat aircraft order in h

31 AC7E7
: You're right... Jazz will get all the sim time they want from BBD... for free and for the life of the aircraft. When Jazz calls, BBD is just going to