For all those that may be interested.
Some interesting stuff in there.....not saying I believe him or I don't...but some things make a lot more sense now....

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January 14th, 2005, 12:53 pm

theAlphaMale

Site Admin

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 1:25 amPosts: 4920Location: Hills of Auburn

Quote:

StillLost Tom, is McMahon gone regardless, or does this potentially impact his situation? TomKowalski YOU HEARD MOOCH ... AT HIS LAST PRESS CONFERENCE ... "DON'T WRITE OFF MIKE MCMAHON ... I LIKE WHAT HE BRINGS TO THE TABLE'' ...

hmmm

_________________Regards, Alpha|Lionbacker.com \(^o^)/"I date this girl for two years and then the nagging starts: I wanna know your name..." - Mike Binder

January 14th, 2005, 1:03 pm

spiderman

All State

Joined: August 11th, 2004, 1:38 pmPosts: 367Location: on the web

unless a letter is released, which is doubtful, we will never know if there was any truth to the story. killer won't release his sources, no journalist would.

while everyone is going crazy over the article, truth is all he really said was the lions were considering releasing joey. that is it. that is not a really big deal, they can "consider" releasing just about everyone and that doesn't mean a thing.

as a team, the lions have to look at all sorts of possible scenerios (some very far fetched) in the age of the salary cap. i'm sure it is a way of life behind closed doors in the nfl.

but since this story revolved around the qb, it was over blown. we will probably never know the truth but i'm not going to worry about who the lions are "considering" releasing. i'm more concerned with who they "actually" release, who they sign in fa and who they draft.

at least they are getting some attention though.

January 14th, 2005, 1:08 pm

theAlphaMale

Site Admin

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 1:25 amPosts: 4920Location: Hills of Auburn

I disagree about it being overblown. It is big news in serveral senses...if true

1- Its an admittance by the organization that Joey likely will not work and a mistake was made.
2- That within the organization there is a major split in support
3- Joey has been annointed for 3 years as the QB of the future and now that future is blurry.
4- It impacts our draft and free agency...if we make such a move it limits what we can do in other areas

Personally I think they should stand pat and draft a late rounder project.

If it is in fact true though it does show a lack of confidence in Joey that people did not know was there. The QB position has always been a big problem with the Lions especially in consistency so IMO there is no overblowing going on...more life as a Lions fan. I understand that it is speculation and even if they are only discussing the possibilities it shows that major players on the Lions staff see a problem...to me that is news.

_________________Regards, Alpha|Lionbacker.com \(^o^)/"I date this girl for two years and then the nagging starts: I wanna know your name..." - Mike Binder

I disagree about it being overblown. It is big news in serveral senses...if true

if true, that is a big if. look at the source.

theAlphaMale wrote:

1- Its an admittance by the organization that Joey likely will not work and a mistake was made.

a debate about a player, or discussing the future of a player is not an admittance of anything. only action is.

theAlphaMale wrote:

2- That within the organization there is a major split in support

a split in support is not news, we have known this since joey was drafted.

theAlphaMale wrote:

3- Joey has been annointed for 3 years as the QB of the future and now that future is blurry.

when you have a "qb of the future" that means "potential" and that equals blurry.

theAlphaMale wrote:

4- It impacts our draft and free agency...if we make such a move it limits what we can do in other areas

again, only if action is taken does it impact what the lions need to do in fa and the draft. discussing it is simply looking at options. they have several needs at the qb spot anyway with only joey signed for next year.

theAlphaMale wrote:

Personally I think they should stand pat and draft a late rounder project.

If it is in fact true though it does show a lack of confidence in Joey that people did not know was there. The QB position has always been a big problem with the Lions especially in consistency so IMO there is no overblowing going on...more life as a Lions fan. I understand that it is speculation and even if they are only discussing the possibilities it shows that major players on the Lions staff see a problem...to me that is news.

i agree with most of that. the lions have invested a lot into building a core of strong skilled offensive players (crog, roy, kj) and they need to consider all possibilities off the man who will orchestrate this offense. talking about it doesn't mean they "see a problem" it only means they are looking at all options. given the money joey has coming up, i think the lions have no choice but to consider various options. perhaps they think it would be best to go with a proven vet at qb and draft a "qb of the future" - who knows. but i agree that joey should get another year and they should take a qb in the draft.

January 14th, 2005, 1:31 pm

theAlphaMale

Site Admin

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 1:25 amPosts: 4920Location: Hills of Auburn

Spidey your a great super hero but I still disagree. My point is that it does impact everything...even the speculation. They are obviously not concerned with the market for RBs in FA or in the draft right? But if they have a list of areas of concern it changes the direction of focus for the draft and FA and their dealings with every other position. They reprioritize their efforts.

I guess to me as well...it's not like filling an offensive line gap or something...if they are "considering" making a change that is a big consideration and impacts every other move and their focus. Its not like going shopping and you see a pair of pants you happen to like...they are going to put some serious thought and effort into mulling this over and seeing what deals they can make.

_________________Regards, Alpha|Lionbacker.com \(^o^)/"I date this girl for two years and then the nagging starts: I wanna know your name..." - Mike Binder

January 14th, 2005, 2:28 pm

Leo

5th Round Pick - Traded

Joined: January 11th, 2005, 11:35 pmPosts: 1081

The more I listened to Tom talk about this the more it sounds like Tom was just throwing it out there because there are a few rumblings within the Lions organization about it nothing more.

It sounds too much like speculation on his part the way he approached the article. What Tom should have done is wrote an article about what the Lions options are at QB were going to be in the off-season and included that as a possibility. Instead he approached it as the entire basis of an article and really blew it out of proportion. Now he's complaining that everybody else is blowing it out proportion.

January 14th, 2005, 3:06 pm

theAlphaMale

Site Admin

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 1:25 amPosts: 4920Location: Hills of Auburn

He sounds pretty damn confident in his story though. As for his source...I am only guessing but I would speculate that it may even be Sherm Lewis himself.

_________________Regards, Alpha|Lionbacker.com \(^o^)/"I date this girl for two years and then the nagging starts: I wanna know your name..." - Mike Binder

January 14th, 2005, 3:12 pm

spiderman

All State

Joined: August 11th, 2004, 1:38 pmPosts: 367Location: on the web

theAlphaMale wrote:

Spidey your a great super hero but I still disagree. My point is that it does impact everything...even the speculation. They are obviously not concerned with the market for RBs in FA or in the draft right? But if they have a list of areas of concern it changes the direction of focus for the draft and FA and their dealings with every other position. They reprioritize their efforts.

I guess to me as well...it's not like filling an offensive line gap or something...if they are "considering" making a change that is a big consideration and impacts every other move and their focus. Its not like going shopping and you see a pair of pants you happen to like...they are going to put some serious thought and effort into mulling this over and seeing what deals they can make.

alpha, you may be the lead dog (or male in this case) but i think you are being lead astry by a killer...

i don't see how it changes other stuff that much. to me, what they decide to do with joey (assuming this is even true) doesn't change what they need to do with the line, safety, tight end, etc...

so let's say there offseason priorities are simply:

1) safety
2) guard
3) tight end
4) back up quarterback

you can point out that they have to reprioritize things - so they move tight end from #3 to #4. they still need to address those holes, it doesn't change that fact at all.

the only implication is the cap, and there you may have a point but i don't know all the ramifications of this move there. frankly, given what i know about their cap i don't think it makes a huge difference - there are ways around just about everything.

look, in the nfl how many quarterbacks switched teams last year. answer - a lot. how many other teams "considered" a change at quarterback. answer - a lot. unless you have one of the top 15 or so qbs in the league on your team you are going to "consider" a change there every season.

bottom line is i don't think the lions will do anything. if they do, then that is a big story. even if they do decide to change qbs, it doesn't "change everything" - they still have the other holes to fill. in reality, what it may mean is if it happens is:

1 - joey is gone
2 - they sign a fa qb to be the starter

they will take a hit on the cap, but it will be much less than what they were going to have to pay joey in the first place. they will use some of that money to pay the new qb.

it doesn't change the fact that they

1 - still need a backup qb
2 - will probably take one late in the draft or
3 - they still have the other holes to fill

you are right, it is not like going to shop for a pair of pants. believe me i know, when you wear pants as tight (the spidey suit is form fitted) as mine fit is everything. in fact, shopping for pants last year was probably tougher than adding a qb like warner, feeley, collins, testaverde, brunell, griese, garcia, etc...

He sounds pretty damn confident in his story though. As for his source...I am only guessing but I would speculate that it may even be Sherm Lewis himself.

I wonder who his source is?

January 14th, 2005, 3:48 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9589Location: Dallas

Wags - you got it all started.

Couple thoughts, Alpha/Spidey - you are both right and wrong to some degree in my opinion.

We don't know if the story is true or false so I'm not going to speculate on that again.

The story does have to deal with the STARTING QB OF THE LIONS - that alone makes it big. Hence all the crazy speculation. That's one for Alpha.

I also tend to agree that I don't see this completely changing the Lions offseason plans. That's one for Spidey.

As for the cap... After the Rogers contract my very rough estimates of the available cap money (well rounded) works out to...

$20M in current cap space
$5M to be allocated to rookies
$15M to spend on FAs

Again, those numbers are very rough and rounded. Also remember, the free space only applies to the 2005 salary and bonus allocations to 2005 so roughly $15M is a large chunk of money. The Lions should be able to address a number of holes this off season as they have managed their $ well the past few years for the most part.

January 14th, 2005, 3:50 pm

theAlphaMale

Site Admin

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 1:25 amPosts: 4920Location: Hills of Auburn

spiderman wrote:

alpha, you may be the lead dog (or male in this case) but i think you are being lead astry by a killer...

I am not being lead by anyone. My entire point is based upon the assumption that this is true. If not and Killer is making it up than he is a big dick

spiderman wrote:

i don't see how it changes other stuff that much. to me, what they decide to do with joey (assuming this is even true) doesn't change what they need to do with the line, safety, tight end, etc...

so let's say there offseason priorities are simply:

1) safety2) guard3) tight end4) back up quarterback

If they cut Joey or are seriously considering it here is the new order1) QB2) safety3) guard4) tight end5) back up quarterback

you can point out that they have to reprioritize things - so they move tight end from #3 to #4. they still need to address those holes, it doesn't change that fact at all.

If there are letters and discussions being sent around then it would seem to be pretty serious. Who is the single most important player on a team...most would agree the QB.

spiderman wrote:

the only implication is the cap, and there you may have a point but i don't know all the ramifications of this move there. frankly, given what i know about their cap i don't think it makes a huge difference - there are ways around just about everything.

It is far from the "only implication".

spiderman wrote:

look, in the nfl how many quarterbacks switched teams last year. answer - a lot. how many other teams "considered" a change at quarterback. answer - a lot. unless you have one of the top 15 or so qbs in the league on your team you are going to "consider" a change there every season.

Joey definately is not a top 15 QB...but last year he was still considered new. Those "a lot" of teams that made changes probably had reason to and it was most likely their major move of the year thus effecting all other personel decisions. Getting the right QB makes the difference between success and failure in the NFL...

spiderman wrote:

bottom line is i don't think the lions will do anything. if they do, then that is a big story. even if they do decide to change qbs, it doesn't "change everything" - they still have the other holes to fill. in reality, what it may mean is if it happens is:

1 - joey is gone2 - they sign a fa qb to be the starter

Yeah, cause Kevin Jones really isn't any impact...we could bring back Ron Rivers with no impact on the team

spiderman wrote:

they will take a hit on the cap, but it will be much less than what they were going to have to pay joey in the first place. they will use some of that money to pay the new qb.

it doesn't change the fact that they

1 - still need a backup qb2 - will probably take one late in the draft or3 - they still have the other holes to fill

Who said it changes the Lions needs??? I changes their priorities and focus. If I have a full workload and my boss gives me a new really important task to do ASAP the other work gets put off and recieves less attention. Well in the case of Free Agency you have a limited time and opportunities to get what you need. It is not like choosing between the Oline guys available from Green Bay...QB is a different ball of wax Spidey. You can't just bring em whomever ho hum willy nilly(I liked saying that).

The Lions have been fairly successful in the FA market lately but you have to target those guys and go full force. For a position like QB where as you stated is in high demand due to high turnover it is even more competitive than probably any other position.

My opinion is the same as yours as to what action they SHOULD take. My point simply is IF they said lets seriously looking into cutting Joey loose it is a big deal. I don't need Testaverde or Feeley out there stinking it up.

_________________Regards, Alpha|Lionbacker.com \(^o^)/"I date this girl for two years and then the nagging starts: I wanna know your name..." - Mike Binder

January 14th, 2005, 4:08 pm

TheRealWags

Modmin Dude

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12278

Pablo wrote:

Wags - you got it all started.

Why yes, yes I did

I agree with you Pablo, I think both Alpha and Spidey are right and wrong. I can see where Alpha is coming from but I think it has more to do with priority instead of need

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January 14th, 2005, 4:24 pm

spiderman

All State

Joined: August 11th, 2004, 1:38 pmPosts: 367Location: on the web

theAlphaMale wrote:

Joey definately is not a top 15 QB...but last year he was still considered new. Those "a lot" of teams that made changes probably had reason to and it was most likely their major move of the year thus effecting all other personel decisions. Getting the right QB makes the difference between success and failure in the NFL...

not true:

giants - warner - they still took elicowboys - testaverde - they still signed hanson, vinny only started because quincy was on coke.redskins - brunell - they still ended up back with ramsey and portis was their big moveraiders - collins - still started gannon, signed a number of fas including sapp, etc.dolphins - feeley - losing rickey was the big story there, also signed boston, etc.bucs - griese - didn't he start off with miami and then get cut, he only played because johnson couldn't go and simms will be the starter next year.browns - garcia - well that didn't go too well did it.

and you are right, getting the right qb can make the difference. look at every team above. not one is in the playoffs.

theAlphaMale wrote:

Yeah, cause Kevin Jones really isn't any impact...we could bring back Ron Rivers with no impact on the team

this doesn't even make sense, i'm not sure what your point was. i never mentioned kj. sorry, i just didn't understand.

theAlphaMale wrote:

Who said it changes the Lions needs??? I changes their priorities and focus. If I have a full workload and my boss gives me a new really important task to do ASAP the other work gets put off and recieves less attention. Well in the case of Free Agency you have a limited time and opportunities to get what you need. It is not like choosing between the Oline guys available from Green Bay...QB is a different ball of wax Spidey. You can't just bring em whomever ho hum willy nilly(I liked saying that).

having no qb certainly does change the teams needs. and i understand it changes the priorites, but not so much that everything else just falls to the wayside. perhaps you missed all the moves the skins made last year and added a starting qb (well at the time). not to mention the rest of the teams i mentioned that changed qbs.

willy nilly - that is good.

theAlphaMale wrote:

The Lions have been fairly successful in the FA market lately but you have to target those guys and go full force. For a position like QB where as you stated is in high demand due to high turnover it is even more competitive than probably any other position.

trying to add a qb does not take away a teams ability to sign other fa players. there is no evidence to support this, it is not true. these organizations have lots of personnel to support them and there are many deals going on simultaneously within on team.

theAlphaMale wrote:

My opinion is the same as yours as to what action they SHOULD take. My point simply is IF they said lets seriously looking into cutting Joey loose it is a big deal. I don't need Testaverde or Feeley out there stinking it up.

look, i don't want testaverde or feeley either. my point is IF they cut him it is a big deal but won''t kill the rest of their plans for the offseason and IF they are only "considering" it, to use the phrase from the article and not "seriously looking into cutting" as you reworded it, so what.

i can "consider" giving up my life as a crime fighter but unless i "actually" give it up it is no big deal. dealing with all the punks everyday i always "consider" it but wouldn't "actually" do it. got keep good citizens like the alpha male safe ya know.