Slashdot videos: Now with more Slashdot!

View

Discuss

Share

We've improved Slashdot's video section; now you can view our video interviews, product close-ups and site visits with all the usual Slashdot options to comment, share, etc. No more walled garden! It's a work in progress -- we hope you'll check it out (Learn more about the recent updates).

It's important not to accept any input as pure fact on its face. It's equally important to accept facts that are verified, even if inconvenient. Far too often, "healthy skepticism" is another way to say "inconvenient so LA LA LA LA LA (fingers in ears)".

Fact is that micro pollutants are just now entering the threshold of human understanding - and it's a bigger problem than just about anybody guessed.

You know wha an 'integral' is in math?The current AGW situation is not driven by the current output of CO2.It is driven by the output during the previous 150 years. Sure, we are on peak output, but ten years of what we put out right mow is far away from what we did the last hundred years.Nevertheless the problem is right now.Exactly the same as with the article we talk about.

just because we are just finding out about them, when shipping has been happening for centuries kind of tells me that its not a bigger problem than anyone guessed as it hasnt shown to be a problem

No, no it does not. You can make that assumption, but it is not in any way supported by the given evidence. That we're finding out about it now only means that we've found out about it now; it tells us nothing about the scope. A whole new family of plastics was just invented by accident. You don't think we've been looking for new plastics? And it's not like it was some strange new combination of things, it was leaving out an ingredient. The truth is that we miss things all the time which look obvious in hin

Fact is that micro pollutants are just now entering the threshold of human understanding - and it's a bigger problem than just about anybody guessed.

Fact is, that's a logically inconsistent statement. If it's just now entering the threshold of human understanding, than there can't possibly be enough evidence to call it a "bigger problem than just about anybody guessed". Unless, of course, nobody thought it was a problem at all - in which case they wouldn't be called pollutants, but unicorn dust or leprechaun farticles.

In your rush to correct people you failed to account for the meaning of "human understanding". It doesn't mean that just one human understands. The above sentence makes it clear that someone may well have guessed, but that the general assumption has been that there was no problem.

Someone always gets it. Unfortunately, they are usually ignored until it's too late.

We'll have to see what the effect ends up being; but there is reason to be a bit concerned about marine paint. Hull fouling is a drag and people go to some lengths to avoid it. Hull paints formulated to slow fouling are quite common and work by being enthusiastically biocidal.

We'll have to see what the effect ends up being; but there is reason to be a bit concerned about marine paint. Hull fouling is a drag and people go to some lengths to avoid it. Hull paints formulated to slow fouling are quite common and work by being enthusiastically biocidal.

Except the TFA didn't talk about biocidal hull paint except to note they didn't find it (the paint flecks are heavy and probably drop to the bottom).

The other Important Bit is to note that this study was done in one area of Korea. We need a bit more research in other places to determine how widespread the issue is. I've seen 'third world' fishing boats that almost entirely paint (and a few scattered boards). Compared to say, American or European boats that are predominantly aluminum and there is a questi

Or it is alarmism. Could threaten zooplankton doesn't mean it will or is likely to. Take every news story with some skepticism.

The problem with alarmism is that it makes people skeptical about everything, even real problems. After people read so many stories about the worlds glaciers melting by 2030, and the giant continent sized island of trash in the Pacific, and then later find out that these are wild hyperbole, they stop taking anything seriously. People like Al Gore, that try to scare people into action by exaggerating problems, do a great disservice. We are all better off just telling the truth.

I do take it with skepticism. I can also do basic math.Unless something changes, things tend to continue moving on the same direction. If the amount of paint residue on the oceans is increasing steadily, it will continue to increase (again, if nothing changes).So yeah, there is cause for worry, maybe even alarm. Panic? No. Panic will be when we start seeing large scale effects of this.

Every one pointing out something is an 'alarmist' (I guess that is a swear word now in the US? Or a kind of defamation? Are you surprised that other languages/societies does not even have a word for that? There e.g. is no german word for "alarmist". If someone is pointing out something we think about it. We do not just say: 'oh, an alarmist'.

Could threaten zooplankton doesn't mean it will or is likely to. Take every news story with some skepticism.It exactly means what is

I have to ask: do you just do random things in your life, rationalizing that it's okay just because the consequences are most likely not going to kill you once they become known? In my book, that's called playing Russian Roulette.

The entire planet has been dusted with plastic, even the Antarctic interior, we've known this for 40yrs. If there's any "alarmism" here it's not coming from the researchers. Back in Issac Newtons day only peasants ate the oysters that carpeted the shores of the UK. We've spent 250yrs raping the ocean in very obvious ways and are paying the price in collapsed fisheries and expensive mercury laden seafood, plastic dust has yet to be shown to have a significant impact on marine life but OTOH there has been lit

because the conclusions of Silent Spring are somehow invalid and pesticides are so safe you could just gobble them up willy nilly?

some of the people decrying the human impact on the world may be alarmist or overreacting, but they are far less dangerous than those who try to say that there's no impact, nothing is wrong, and everything is/will be fine, so stop worrying.

you can try to impugn one side by saying bias, and defend the other by again claiming bias, but that's irrelevent. the science says what it will, and if you follow the science, that's all that matters. in the case of evolution, global warming, or vaccines the science says "its real", "its happening" and "they work". end of story.

in this new avenue of research the science doesnt say a whole lot yet. its only just started to ask the question, the question being, paraphrased, "is there potential harm here to plankton from particulates in the very top most layer?". there's already been questions asked about the micro-plastics we flush into the water daily (espcially the new fad of plastic microbeads in soaps) that can make it through water treatment plants into the rivers or lakes or oceans, and evidence found that they can buildup in and eventually block fish gills. so this is then related to that line of thinking, but is a new question itself. and it's a good question because plankton is one of the most important (if not THE most important) classes of life on Earth. its the very first link in the food chain for a majority of life on Earth. Further its also the primary producer of oxygen, both atmospheric and water-dissolved, which is fairly important too.

Like most things the truty is probably somewhere in the middle. Plastic and paint floating on the ocean is not good and will no doubt do some harm but it's not likely to end all life on the planet. Maybe some really big skimmers? Solar powered of course.

This is a true fallacy when the conclusion is already drawn, such as media trying to present "both sides" of climate change as if the relevant sides where "yes, it's warming" and "no, it's cooling" -- while the actual discussion is more like "is the impact of effect X on K equal A or B=A+0.01*A, while taking the interaction with effect Y into account?", where the relevant sides of the discussion are those saying it's A and those saying it is 1.01*A.

plankton is a mix of types of life. all microscopic. some is animal in type (super micro crustaceans), but a lot of it more akin to plant or bacteria, and as such it takes its energy directly from the sun. that's one reason its mainly found in the upper layers of the ocean.

and its the reason this line is questioning is important. we know that water clarity can impact the amount of plankton biomass (as well as other submarine ecosystems such as coral reefs). this question is basically heading towards finding

because the conclusions of Silent Spring are somehow invalid and pesticides are so safe you could just gobble them up willy nilly?

Don't be stupid. There's a profound difference between using something responsibly and being a complete moron. Drinking too much water can kill you. Mercury can kill you, but we put it in CFL fluorescent lamps. Many cleaning products are toxic. Do you have a hard time not drinking or eating them?

Scientific theories are disproved... How many scientific theories have lasted 500 years? 100 years? Or even 50 years?

The three cases in question (evolution, global warming, and vaccines) have all been around for more than 100 years. The practice of science (or natural philosophy) is not 500 years old, so it is unlikely that any of her findings are older. Even so, none of the three examples will be overturned after 500 years. It is implausible that we will eventually find out that vaccines actually don't work, or that evolution isn't really happening, etc. We have observed all of these.

An example of science that hasn't changed much is the observation (shadows and geometry) by one of those Greeks that the Earth is a sphere of around 25,000 miles in circumference. We've refined it but the basic science has stood up quite well.Probably some of our current science will be the same, refined but basically right.

because the conclusions of Silent Spring are somehow invalid and pesticides are so safe you could just gobble them up willy nilly?

Yes, the conclusions of Silent Spring *are* invalid. Rachel Carson was a left-wing nut job. And DDT actually is safe to eat. Read how the inventor went around the country eating a teaspoon (or was it a tablespoon?) of it at each speech. Did it kill him? No. Did he get cancer? No. DDT is safe and eliminating it costs about 1 million human lives every year because we can't control the mosquitoes spreading disease.

because the conclusions of Silent Spring are somehow invalid and pesticides are so safe you could just gobble them up willy nilly?

Yes, the conclusions of Silent Spring *are* invalid. Rachel Carson was a left-wing nut job. And DDT actually is safe to eat. Read how the inventor went around the country eating a teaspoon (or was it a tablespoon?) of it at each speech. Did it kill him? No. Did he get cancer? No. DDT is safe and eliminating it costs about 1 million human lives every year because we can't control the mosquitoes spreading disease.

Where the fuck does this mis-information come from? The only legal use of DDT is for controlling disease vectors, eg killing mosquitoes. Of course it doesn't work very well anymore as due to indiscriminate use allowed the mosquitoes to build up tolerance to DDT.And George Burns proved that smoking is harmless, smoked cigars and lived till a 101.

You're obviously insane. There have been countless "scientific" studies that contradict your assertions. It's only been since the use of DDT was largely outlawed or banned that the American and Bald Eagles have recovered from near extinction. An article as part of a Duke University course provides a brief summary of the adverse effects of DDT. http://people.chem.duke.edu/~j... [duke.edu]
There is such a thing as extreme skepticism of which you are a good example. Reminds me of the flat earth philosophy.

The "old white haired ghost in the sky" never told anyone to destroy the earth and everything in it.

No, but he did give dominion over most of it to man, and he doesn't seem to have actually given him a directive to protect it. Instead, he's been promised an accounting day which will consist of a holy war between people who have already died.

Well, I noticed Halliburton doesn't have a corporate logo, so I started drawing them one that might be less green. The logo is Dick Cheney in a Hummer H-2 running over small woodland creatures while dumping unused barrels of Agent Orange out of the Hummer's trunk and lighting the rainforest on fire with a flamethrower.

Now if only I had any actual artistic talent and this didn't look like a giant blob of orange highlighter.

The logo is Dick Cheney in a Hummer H-2 running over small woodland creatures while dumping unused barrels of Agent Orange out of the Hummer's trunk and lighting the rainforest on fire with a flamethrower.

That is so fucking totally unfair. Agent Orange is a Monsanto product.

On average, a liter of water from the microlayer contained 195 particles—this concentration is 10 to 100 times higher than microplastic particles in water collected by other methods.

One litre of water is 1,000,000 cubic millimetres. Given a depth of 1 mm that would cover 1 square meter. So therefore 195 particles per square meter. They don't go into how big these particles are. The issue is that these particle float and therefore would be concentrated in the upper 1 millimetre of water. They have not shown it is a problem.

So... 195,000,000 particles per square kilometer in our 361 million square kilometers of ocean. That is over 70 quadrillion paint particles polluting our oceans. We are all clearly doomed!

It depends on whether the particles are accumulating faster than they are leaving the system. If the figures we're talking about represent an equilibrium that will continue indefinitely into the future, surely we are not doomed. But if the concentration of particles is increasing and people need to do something about this before it becomes a problem, we might be.

Eventually something's going to get our species. Either changes in the Sun will make the Earth uninhabitable to anything recognizably human, or w

Perhaps not but its certainly worth following up on a previously unknown phenomenon that may or may not affect the global food supply. Your math showing an apparently small concentration doesn't take into account the biology of any creature living in the ocean. You haven't shown there isn't a problem.

I neither know or suspect. I am just making an accusation and challenging you to prove it false.

If I were a serial killer I would be capable of causing your death

You have no idea who I am or where I live. Maybe you are only capable of killing children under the age of five?

I am not a serial killer, or you would be dead.

The other explanations for my continues existence are as follows;1. You don't know who I am.2. You don't have the financial resources to come to me and kill me.3. You don't have the capability of killing someone who can defend themselves.4. The attempt would uncover your actions.To put it slightly diffe

Nor do they tell us the ratio to non-plastic junk floating in that same water, especially naturally occuring junk. Not every particle floating in the oceans is of human origin; I'd hazard most are the result of atmospheric dust.

The total area covered is a minuscule percentage of what was formerly uncovered.

Personally, I don't buy it, because plankton isn't a thing, it's a class of things. Because we are talking about particles, the danger isn't to plankton. The danger is to plankton feeders. Individual plankton which die because they come in contact with a paint particle are going to fall out of the mix and become food for something lower down instead of something feeding near the surface. Not all of them are going to be vulnerabl

I find it more likely that some microorganism will find a way to extract energy from the particles, if it's not already doing so.

That's not a good thing. Paints are overwhelmingly still colored with things we don't want in the food chain. We really don't want plankton to metabolize these particles. We want them to stay as intact as possible for as long as possible, ideally until they somehow end up on the ocean floor or in a cleanup project somewhere — but anywhere that won't put them into the food chain or drinking water would be fantastic.

that stuff is the Worst.I work in a big German Yacht building business, so i've got some experience with that stuff.Avoid that shit at all costs. If you get in on your skin it will itch and sting you.If you try to wash it of you might have some temporary relief, but put some clothes on or lay down in your bed and it will sting terribly.If you're new to the stuff, it sometimes will last for more than a day.I know people who got so used to it, the sometimes don't even wear the safety overals. These guys are s

In other words, stop buying shit made in China. If enough people do that then even the 1% will listen. Even in the US, it is still easy to find shit made here - you just have to look. And most of the the time the price is about the same and the quality is better.

This is why I am damned tired of hearing the "we must have nuclear because we otherwise can't produce enough base load to produce all our disposable garbage wal-mart shit" argument. We're engaging in too much economic activity, and the argument that we must not only sustain but increase it is not laughable but terrifying.