^ Well... I have to admit that your post is a very good one. The only thing I can say is that the 144.000 of Revelation(which are already in the earth) will be soon be able to perform such miracles as the mountain thing. Let's w8 & see.

WoW. Really?? This is the whole, "You made really good points, and I can't refute them, but I'm going to keep believing because it's too painful to admit my beliefs are in error" tactic. What hubris! Seppuku's post completely demolished your bible's reliability. How can you sit there, in honesty, claiming to still believe this nonsense when you've just been shown that it is totally inconsistent and irrational??

OP : Yes yes, we all know about the placebo effect. Congrats on finding that...

The real question is, what if the placebo effect is in fact faith(at work)? What if Yehovah had purposefully provided the ability for a person's brain to be able to cure a physical problem by simply thinking he/she was healed? Food for thought...

And what if pink magic unicorns are controlling our thoughts from the backside of Pluto? These far fetched "what if" questions are only being posited because you have assumed your religion is true and you are now trying every which way to defend it against scrutiny or critical thinking. You have started with your conclusion. That is backwards.

On the amputee thing, I thought I would address that right away. Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required. He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that. This is also why it is written :...

Faith ISN'T required! That is exactly the point. Faith is not a good thing. Faith is just gullibility dressed up. Faith is believing something when you have no good reason to do so. It is the excuse people give when they can't give good reasons, or demonstrable unequivocal, evidence for their beliefs.

Faith implies knowledge. If there is absolutely no knowledge, there than can be no faith. There is no such thing as total blind faith.

Only partial blind faith exists.

Nice dodge.

I don't agree with your knowledge/faith position. However, even if this claim were true, it says nothing about knowledge requiring faith. If you believe god desires faith, and yet you convince us through knowledge (evidence), then we will be the faithless believers that you claim the god does not want. In other words, if you convince us through evidence, we will not have faith. So contrary to what you claim the god wants, you are attempting to create faithless believers.

Please address the point that you are working at cross purposes to your god.

I think you have a point about auto suggestion, time, improved diet and other such assumptions as to why some prayer may be answered without a need for God's intervention. Hope and expection actually aid the immune system. I would disagree that God has somehow been eliminated from the process. We would have to look at claims of healing such as cancer, broken bones and the like to see if there are any proven cases where healing has taken place in such a way that no natural explanation can possibly be given. Such documented cases abound and may explain why 3 out of 4 doctors believe in at least some cases of supernatural healing in the world today. Most of the arguments against healing that I've seen in this forum are highly emotional and speculative and seem determined to prove the belief in methodological naturalism.

I think you have a point about auto suggestion, time, improved diet and other such assumptions as to why some prayer may be answered without a need for God's intervention. Hope and expection actually aid the immune system. I would disagree that God has somehow been eliminated from the process. We would have to look at claims of healing such as cancer, broken bones and the like to see if there are any proven cases where healing has taken place in such a way that no natural explanation can possibly be given. Such documented cases abound and may explain why 3 out of 4 doctors believe in at least some cases of supernatural healing in the world today. Most of the arguments against healing that I've seen in this forum are highly emotional and speculative and seem determined to prove the belief in methodological naturalism.

Welcome to the forums, Mr. Martinello!

I work in medicine. I've typed literally tens of thousands of reports (I estimate something like 40,000) over the past 7 years or so.

I've never encountered a situation such as you describe, and none of the dozens of physicians for whom I type has ever alluded to even a slight belief in supernatural healing. I suspect the emotionalism and speculation tends to dwell more on the religious side, not with the non-theists or proponents of naturalism.

We would have to look at claims of healing such as cancer, broken bones and the like to see if there are any proven cases where healing has taken place in such a way that no natural explanation can possibly be given. Such documented cases abound.....

HI there DS - welcome to the forum!

Unfortunately, it looks like the link/s you gave to some of these documented cases didn't appear in your post. I look forward to you posting them so we can discuss them.

I think you have a point about auto suggestion, time, improved diet and other such assumptions as to why some prayer may be answered without a need for God's intervention. Hope and expection actually aid the immune system. I would disagree that God has somehow been eliminated from the process. We would have to look at claims of healing such as cancer, broken bones and the like to see if there are any proven cases where healing has taken place in such a way that no natural explanation can possibly be given. Such documented cases abound and may explain why 3 out of 4 doctors believe in at least some cases of supernatural healing in the world today. Most of the arguments against healing that I've seen in this forum are highly emotional and speculative and seem determined to prove the belief in methodological naturalism.

Yes, I studied hypnosis deeply and I can assure some diseases can be cured with the power of the mind.

Most miracles you see in the church are just subtle suggestion: random pain disappears, person stops smoking, person stops drinking alcohol, person gets a better outlook in life and stops depression.

ALL these can be done in the church. None of these is supernatural. A bad mindset CAN cause diseases, even cancer.

I think this thread is probably the best argument for faith healing.

Amputees will never get healed though. It's a PHYSICAL problem. An arm won't grow back. Heck, not even hair in bald men will grow back.

I think you have a point about auto suggestion, time, improved diet and other such assumptions as to why some prayer may be answered without a need for God's intervention. Hope and expection actually aid the immune system. I would disagree that God has somehow been eliminated from the process. We would have to look at claims of healing such as cancer, broken bones and the like to see if there are any proven cases where healing has taken place in such a way that no natural explanation can possibly be given. Such documented cases abound and may explain why 3 out of 4 doctors believe in at least some cases of supernatural healing in the world today. Most of the arguments against healing that I've seen in this forum are highly emotional and speculative and seem determined to prove the belief in methodological naturalism.

A supernatural explanation for a rare occurrence is never a viable option because the very nature of that type of explanation is the attempt to explain a mystery byanother mystery. How absurd. The only way I could see you Christians proving your case regarding miracles is if your Yahweh deity came down (out of hiding) and actually showed us the process each and every time (in detail), and by that time it would no longer be a mystery. As I see it, that would be the only time you could call something supernatural (i.e. - Yahweh came out of hiding, demonstrated the process consistently, and then told us we don't have the power to do it). But wait! According to the bible he did tell the believers they have the power to perform the miraculous etc (Mark 16, John 14, etc). So this wouldn't even cut it. It would juts be common knowledge that everyone on the planet has the power the heal others (i.e. - it wouldn't be controversial).

Bottom line: there is just no good reason for thinking there is anything such as "the supernatural". Just like the word "God", the word "supernatural" does not refer to anything real or actual.

[...] We would have to look at claims of healing such as cancer, broken bones and the like to see if there are any proven cases where healing has taken place in such a way that no natural explanation can possibly be given.

Just because we do not know the answer, does not mean that you can fill in the blanks with some ridiculous fairy story.

You will note that over the years we have found the answer to more and more things, and each time, the supernatural has had to take a step back.

For you, the supernatural is what you do not understand; for the rest of us, what we do not understand is something we need to research so we can find an answer - and the answer is never supernatural.

Logged

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Nothing can prove to be supernatural because the whole concept of the supernatural is incoherent.

A god could be proven to exist, mind you - gods being natural creatures.

Gods could be proven to exist even if they were supernatural. All they need do is expose themselves and prove their supernatural state.

Turn off the sun for a second and then turn it back on. like that unrecorded event upon Jesus's death. If cultures around the world spoke of a day when the sun went out in the middle of the day. That would be a helluva good corroberation of the bible. That shit would have been recorded by every culture in Europe, Asia, the middle east, Africa... Yet only 1 or 2 texts speak of it and they are both in the bible.

Turn off the sun for a second and then turn it back on. like that unrecorded event upon Jesus's death. If cultures around the world spoke of a day when the sun went out in the middle of the day. That would be a helluva good corroberation of the bible. That shit would have been recorded by every culture in Europe, Asia, the middle east, Africa... Yet only 1 or 2 texts speak of it and they are both in the bible.

I always found that a bit... odd. Something as extraordinary as 3 hours of darkness over Jerusalem, and no non-Biblical record of it? If it had actually happened, why do no Roman letters or journals mention it? Why no mention in Jewish history? Why no mention in the writings of any of the neighbouring peoples? Surely somebody was passing through town that day and would have mentioned the light going out for 3 bleepin' hours!

appear in the sky to everyone at once and say follow x book. (2 minutes per generation or so out of your schedule)

Regrowing limbs only for the faithful.

have people change color when they sin and return when they attone for the sin. (this might be good for police work as well)

The mustard thing would be pretty cool. pray for a mountain to move and it does...

On the passive not so flashy side:You could make people who follow the word have demonstrably less suffering (peaceful death, old age, less dissease, lower childhood mortality...) Now when you look at muslims, bhudists, atheists ... lot in life and say hey perhaps there is something to this christianity (insert true religion here) thing.

Leave Christian (or insert true religion) houses stand in the midst of a tornado. You can still get your killing in and prove why you cursed the other people. (this leaves it up to you to see the pattern but it is there for all to see if they look)

appear in the sky to everyone at once and say follow x book. (2 minutes per generation or so out of your schedule)

Regrowing limbs only for the faithful.

have people change color when they sin and return when they attone for the sin. (this might be good for police work as well)

The mustard thing would be pretty cool. pray for a mountain to move and it does...

On the passive not so flashy side:You could make people who follow the word have demonstrably less suffering (peaceful death, old age, less dissease, lower childhood mortality...) Now when you look at muslims, bhudists, atheists ... lot in life and say hey perhaps there is something to this christianity (insert true religion here) thing.

Leave Christian (or insert true religion) houses stand in the midst of a tornado. You can still get your killing in and prove why you cursed the other people. (this leaves it up to you to see the pattern but it is there for all to see if they look)

The absolute lack of this kind of demonstrable evidence is exactly why I say faith is worthless. For these believers (who have assumed their holy book in advance) they have been SOLD on the idea that when they have doubts, when they see no good evidence, or when they notice inconsistencies and/or direct contradictions to these extraordinary claims they should just have faith. In other words, they bought into the idea that they should just keep believing, in spite of the fact that the evidence goes in the opposite direction of their assumed worldview, and interpretation of ancient texts. This is one of the things I cannot stand about religious apologists (whether of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, or otherwise). They just keep assuming their view and trying to shift the burden of proof onto those of us who reject that view. Somehow, they think it's OK to pass the buck off onto anyone who doesn't agree. It's the, "Well, if you don't agree then your just blind" fallacy (which is, yet again, another attempt to assume their biblical interpretation in advance).

And one of the most hilarious things about this is that if a salesman came to their door and started using their same type of faulty reasoning (obfuscating, shifting the burden, equivocating on terms, using the argument from ignorance, etc), to support a particularly "magical" product, they would quickly reject the salesman's irrationality and appeals to emotion. But they didn't do this when their parents sold them! Still too, claiming they had some "experience" with some alleged invisible entity called Yahweh only turns them into another salesman. It's the worst kind of network marketing scheme!

^^^Exactly. God gets away with crap explanations that no night-time infomercial would try.

There is this incredible product that cures everything but is invisible and undetectable by any human measure. We have no photo or any other concrete evidence of the product (trust us, it really does exist because we say it does), the claims of the commercial are fantastic and nonsensical (you will lose 100 lbs in one night if you rub the product on your feet and then chant this magic word while standing on your head) and you would have no idea if you ever got the invisible product (again, you have to keep on trusting us, if you stop believing in the product, well then you really won't ever get it).

Would anyone click on the "buy now" button? Is is amazing that so many people believe in gods when none of them would fall for a scam as lame as that under any other circumstances.

There always has been and always will be snake oil salesmen because there has been and always will be people who will buy anything, real or metaphorically speaking of coarse for all sorts of reasons. Typically it people who are down and out and/or people looking for the instant something to happen. I find it interesting to watch and listen from the people trying to sell their product. It's an art really to act and/or be confident enough to sell something even the person marketing the bullshit. As soon as you learn and realize this and begin to question things and look for evidence.

This is what Christians fail to realize which is the core of what this site is about. To critically think and question what other people are trying to sell/market as truth regardless if the misleading product is something they havent figured out yet is snake oil.

People sell and market (spread lies and untruths) for all sorts of reasons but typically it is for something that is self-sustaining; monetary is usually the number one but usually it is just the unsuspecting Christian that was just born and raised with the snake oil already being spread upon the family.

Do people fall for scams? Absolutely, as everyone wants to believe the unbelievable is true even when deep down they know it's not. All this is the very essence of the saying "if it's too good to be true then it probably isn't". This is also ironically the simple foundation of the more technical "occam's razor" philosophy.

? Is is amazing that so many people believe in gods when none of them would fall for a scam as lame as that under any other circumstances.

Do you fall for any scams NGFM?

My daddy was a professional con artist. I fell for many of his scams, until I finally realized that, sadly, I could not trust anything he said. He was also a devoutly religious, even fanatical Jehovah's Witness, and I was raised in that faith.

^^^His cons included bogus get rich-quick schemes, pyramid marketing programs, fictitious businesses, and number-running. For those who don't know what numbers running was, back before the state lottos made small-time gambling legal, crooks like my dad sold numbers to poor people and sometimes even held a drawing and gave the winners a prize. I don't think my daddy ever gave anyone a prize, though, just ripped people off. Since it was illegal, who would anyone complain to? He was run out of a few towns, and had to get bailed out of trouble by his family several times, though. He used to fuss about how people like him were driven out of the numbers business when the government started the lotto.

Can I add that none of his professional scams were nearly as lame and bereft of real value as the religion we were raised in. And amazingly enough, that was the only scam he fell for himself. He was still refusing recommended blood transfusions during his last illness. I can't figure why he thought that would matter to Jehovah God, when he had done so many other forbidden things (scamming, domestic abuse, drinking, smoking, etc.) during his life.

His cons included bogus get rich-quick schemes, pyramid marketing programs, fictitious businesses, and number-running. For those who don't know what numbers running was, back before the state lottos made small-time gambling legal, crooks like my dad sold numbers to poor people and sometimes even held a drawing and gave the winners a prize. I don't think my daddy ever gave anyone a prize, though, just ripped people off. Since it was illegal, who would anyone complain to? He was run out of a few towns, and had to get bailed out of trouble by his family several times, though. He used to fuss about how people like him were driven out of the numbers business when the government started the lotto.

"Emotions" are the key to all persuasions. Evil will use this fact to create ways to take advantage of what is good and constructive. No surprises here.

Just as evil will ask why a severed arm does not come back. Evil people playing on emotions.