Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_thread?p_l_id=&threadId=18454034 Questions for scholars of dependent originationSun, 07 Jun 2020 08:59:17 GMT2020-06-07T08:59:17ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18702808 Based on curious&#039;s great initial effort and Nicky&#039;s excellent comments, maybe we could revise the list to the following to be more comprehensible in natural English?<br /><br /><strong>First hexapod (description of the mind)</strong><br /><br />Aviija - Ignorance, or unawareness<br />Sankhara - Rumination<br />Vijnana - Conscious awareness<br />Namarupa - Mind-&amp;-body, or bodymind<br />Salayatana - Sense organs<br />Phassa - Sensory cognition<br /><br /><strong>Second Hexapod (response of the mind)</strong><br /><br />Vedana - Valence<br />Tanha - Craving<br />Upadana - Grasping, or seeking<br />Bhava - Fixating, enacting, or becoming<br />Jati - Identifying-with, or birth<br />Dukka - SufferingWed, 12 Feb 2020 16:24:51 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18702808Matthew2020-02-12T16:24:51ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18606253 <div class="quote-title">Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:</div><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><div class="quote-title">terry:</div><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><br /> But I have to wonder whether dukkha is ever extinguished. Things are nonself, they are impermanent, and they are inherently unsatisfactory. Things will always be so.<br /><br /> Maybe we could extinguish things altogether, but we will never make them satisfactory. It is a fundamentally dualistic notion.<br /></div></div><br /><br /><br />”It is often thought that the Buddha’s doctrine teaches us that suffering will disappear if one has meditated long enough, or if one sees everything differently. It is not that at all.<br /><br />Suffering isn’t going to go away; the one who suffers is going to go away.”<br /><br />&#x2014;Ayya Khema</div></div><br />nice!Sat, 08 Feb 2020 03:33:01 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18606253terry2020-02-08T03:33:01ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18536102 <div class="quote-title">Chris Marti:</div><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">Meanwhile, for you hexapod fans ... </span></div></div><br /><img src="https&#x3a;&#x2f;&#x2f;alexonfilm&#x2e;files&#x2e;wordpress&#x2e;com&#x2f;2017&#x2f;10&#x2f;arrival1&#x2e;jpg&#x3f;w&#x3d;625" /></div></div><br />Dang, I&#039;ve been trumped!Tue, 04 Feb 2020 21:25:44 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18536102Not two, not one2020-02-04T21:25:44ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18536098 <div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">Meanwhile, for you hexapod fans ... </span></div></div><br /><img src="https&#x3a;&#x2f;&#x2f;alexonfilm&#x2e;files&#x2e;wordpress&#x2e;com&#x2f;2017&#x2f;10&#x2f;arrival1&#x2e;jpg&#x3f;w&#x3d;625" />Tue, 04 Feb 2020 21:23:20 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18536098Chris Marti2020-02-04T21:23:20ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18536095 <div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">My motivation is to try to find ways to make dependent origination more accessible.<br /></span></div></div><span style="color: #111111"><br />My personal version of this would be (is!) to tell everyone to meditate on the arising a passing away of phenomena and see the process at work in real-time. That engenders a fully grokked, deeply held and unshakable knowledge of dependent origination. The intellectual understanding of it pales in comparison.</span>Tue, 04 Feb 2020 21:18:28 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18536095Chris Marti2020-02-04T21:18:28ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18536086 To bastardise John Donne: <em>Oh dukkha, where is thy sting</em>? <br /><br />Great discussion from everyone. My motivation is to try to find ways to make dependent origination more accessible. I think there is a translation issue, but also an issue of the conceptual frameworks being employed. Some of our conceptual frameworks have advanced over the last 2500 years, so there may be better ways to describe what we all perceive than the descriptions we find in the suttas. Even the original doctrine is a bit incomplete, or inconsistent, or represents a slice through certain concepts from a certain perspective. So I ask myself, can we make the dharma more accessible? Nicky&#039;s comments are a great spur for me to reflect on what could be better, and what is just worse.<br /><br />Meanwhile, for you hexapod fans ... <br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="https&#x3a;&#x2f;&#x2f;media&#x2e;giphy&#x2e;com&#x2f;media&#x2f;1q018RU0NREmA&#x2f;giphy&#x2e;gif" />Tue, 04 Feb 2020 21:07:30 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18536086Not two, not one2020-02-04T21:07:30ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18534336 <div class="quote-title">terry:</div><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><br /> But I have to wonder whether dukkha is ever extinguished. Things are nonself, they are impermanent, and they are inherently unsatisfactory. Things will always be so.<br /><br /> Maybe we could extinguish things altogether, but we will never make them satisfactory. It is a fundamentally dualistic notion.<br /></div></div><br /><br /><br />”It is often thought that the Buddha’s doctrine teaches us that suffering will disappear if one has meditated long enough, or if one sees everything differently. It is not that at all.<br /><br />Suffering isn’t going to go away; the one who suffers is going to go away.”<br /><br />&#x2014;Ayya KhemaTue, 04 Feb 2020 19:18:24 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18534336Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö2020-02-04T19:18:24ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18534299 <div class="quote-title">terry:</div><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><div class="quote-title">Nicky:</div><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><br /><br /><br /><br />here: <a href="https&#x3a;&#x2f;&#x2f;suttacentral&#x2e;net&#x2f;an3&#x2e;61&#x2f;en&#x2f;bodhi">https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/bodhi</a><span style="color: #111111"><br /></span></div></div><br /><br />aloha nicky,<br /><br /> Great post.<br /><br /> I have been looking for a sutta site like this for a very long time, thank you so much!<br /><br />terry</div></div><br />ya&#039;ll are probably going to get sick of me quoting suttas now...<br /><br />tTue, 04 Feb 2020 18:30:31 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18534299terry2020-02-04T18:30:31ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18533816 <div class="quote-title">Nicky:</div><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><br /><br /><br /><br />here: <a href="https&#x3a;&#x2f;&#x2f;suttacentral&#x2e;net&#x2f;an3&#x2e;61&#x2f;en&#x2f;bodhi">https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/bodhi</a><span style="color: #111111"><br /></span></div></div><br /><br />aloha nicky,<br /><br /> Great post.<br /><br /> I have been looking for a sutta site like this for a very long time, thank you so much!<br /><br />terryTue, 04 Feb 2020 18:27:36 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18533816terry2020-02-04T18:27:36ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18533421 I agree with terry. Dukka is always with us, and the only way to extinguish it is to extinguish.Tue, 04 Feb 2020 17:51:12 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18533421Chris Marti2020-02-04T17:51:12ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18533417 <div class="quote-title">curious:</div><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content">I have been thinking about dependent origination - as I tend to do most days <img alt="emoticon" src="https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" > -<br /><br /><br />Third question. There seem to me to me to be two major types of dukka that arise from this. One is the misery of our ongoing unskilful cravings arising from the second hexapod. The second is the nagging unsatisfactoriness of our conceptual errors about self and reality, arising from the first hexapod. If so, these may have different cures - following the path steadily reduces the first type of dukkha, whereas the second type of dukkha requires insight, and eventually complete insight, to be extinguished. Thoughts?<br /><br />Thanks for reading. Any comments very welcome.<br /><br />Malcolm </div></div><br />aloha malcolm,<br /><br /> I&#039;m not a scholar and can&#039;t address the first two questions. To say something arises from a hexapod sort of spaces me out. But I have to wonder whether dukkha is ever extinguished. Things are nonself, they are impermanent, and they are inherently unsatisfactory. Things will always be so.<br /><br /> Maybe we could extinguish things altogether, but we will never make them satisfactory. It is a fundamentally dualistic notion.<br /><br /><br />may all beings feel that things are satisfactory?<br />terryTue, 04 Feb 2020 17:46:22 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18533417terry2020-02-04T17:46:22ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18529894 &#034;Hexapod&#034;<br /><br />Aren&#039;t those the aliens from the movie &#034;<em>Arrival?</em>&#034; <img alt="emoticon" src="https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/tongue.gif" >Tue, 04 Feb 2020 14:18:05 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18529894Chris Marti2020-02-04T14:18:05ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18525431 Thanks for your input Nicky!<br /><br />M.Tue, 04 Feb 2020 08:44:08 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18525431Not two, not one2020-02-04T08:44:08ZRE: Questions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18462035 <div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">Sankhara - Subconscious mental conditioning</span></div></div>Sankhara is not subconscious. Anything &#034;subconscious&#034; (called &#034;anusaya&#034;/&#034;underlying tendencies&#034;) is part of ignorance. Sankhara are the subtle disturbing distracting thoughts that pop up when meditating. They are not unconscious. To the contrary, the sankhara cause consciousness to arise, that is. cause consciousness to land upon the sankharas. <br /><br /><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">Vijnana - Dualistic perception</span></div></div>The above common Hindu idea has no basis in the original Buddhist scriptures. <br /><br /><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">Namarupa - Semantic (conceptual) memory</span></div></div>The original Buddhist scriptures define namarupa as feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention and the form/body composed of the four elements of earth, wind, fire &amp; water. <br /><br />What this means is the ignorant sankharas cause the body (&#034;rupa&#034;) to become aroused and cause the mental faculties (&#034;nama&#034;) to give <strong>inappropriate/unwise</strong> attention &amp; intention towards the sankharas. <br /><br /><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">Salayatana - Sensory Input</span></div></div>Salayanta = six sense bases. <br /><br /><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">Phassa - Recogition through application of semantic memory to sensory input </span></div></div>Phassa is defined as the meeting of sense organ, sense object &amp; sense consciousness. The above makes it sound like phassa is &#034;perception&#034; (&#034;sanna&#034;), which the scriptures say arises after phassa. <br /><br /><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">Upadana - Arousal</span></div></div>Upadana = attachment; grabbing onto. <br /><br /><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">Bhava </span></div></div>Bhava is the mind fixated upon or continuously established in (&#034;patiṭṭhita&#034;) the sense object, which also starts <em>creating </em>a sense of self-identity with the sense object. <br /><br /><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">Jati - Burning in new mental conditioning</span></div></div>Jati is completing a sense of self-identity. It is conceptually defining various manifestations or proliferations of aggregates as a category of beings. For example, defining or classifying various manifestations of aggregates as a &#034;woman&#034;, &#034;man&#034;, &#034;child&#034;. &#034;wife&#034;, &#034;husband&#034;, &#034;son&#034;, &#034;daughter&#034;, &#034;mother&#034;, &#034;father&#034;, &#034;doctor&#034;, &#034;laywer&#034;, &#034;potter&#034;, &#034;farmer&#034;, &#034;soldier&#034;, &#034;friend&#034;, &#034;enemy&#034;, etc. <br /><br /><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">First question - does this transliteration seems appropriate? <br /></span></div></div><span style="color: #111111">Not really because the individual Pali words are extensively defined in the original scriptures. You are taking the individual words and defining them yourself. Worse, you are taking meanings from Hinduism and applying them to Buddhism. <br /><br /></span><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">I am particularly interested in whether Vedana - Tanha - Upadana is properly represented by Affect / Desire / Arousal (compared traditional translations of Feeling Tone / Thirst / Inflaming)</span></div></div>&#034;Affect&#034; sounds too broad because &#034;affect&#034; can refer to emotional reactions that are more complex than the bare basic feelings of pleasantness &amp; unpleasantness. Vedana are basic primal feelings of <span style="font-family: Arial"><span style="font-size: 16px">pleasantness &amp; unpleasantness. </span></span><br /><br />&#034;Desire&#034; sounds too neutral for &#034;tanha&#034;, which refers to a passionate desire. <br /><br />&#034;Upadana&#034; does not literally mean &#034;arousal&#034; even thought the scriptures do contain the phrase: &#034;<em><strong>Delight </strong>in feelings is upadana</em>&#034;. &#034;Upadana&#034; means to &#034;take up&#034; or &#034;pick up&#034; although the word &#034;delight&#034; (&#034;nandi&#034;) is sometimes used synonymously. . <br /><br /><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">Second question, do Tanha and Upadana correspond </span><em><span style="color: #111111"><strong>exactly</strong></span></em><span style="color: #111111"> to the second noble truth? Most of the work I&#039;ve seen concentrates on Tanha. <br /></span></div></div><span style="color: #111111">The 2nd noble truth is about the &#034;arising&#034; or &#034;origination&#034; (&#034;samudaya&#034;) of suffering therefore includes all twelve conditions of dependent origination, as explained in AN 3.61. The <u>1st sermon</u> version of the four noble truths was only a summary. Regardless, <u>craving alone cannot be the 2nd noble truth</u> because the 2nd noble truth is about the &#034;arising&#034; of suffering therefore it must include suffering. &#034;Becoming&#034;, born of upadana, is already suffering or stress. The 1st noble truth says attachment to the five aggregates is already suffering. Merely the mental act of grasping (upadana) is suffering &amp; bondage. For example, as soon as a husband sees his wife sexually embracing another man, the husband suffers (from jealously and betrayal). Then later, when his wife leaves him, he suffers further, from sorrow and despair. <br /><br /></span><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content">But the suttas refer to the craving that leads to re-becoming, accompanied by <span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>delight </strong></span>and lust. This very much sounds like desire accompanied by arousal, leading to absorption in urges and thus new mental conditioning. </div></div>Yes. Correct. For becoming to occur, upadana must have already occurred. As I previously said, the word &#034;<span style="color: #ff0000">delight</span>&#034; (&#034;nandi&#034;), while having elements of craving, is often a synonym for upadana. Thus, as I already explained, the 2nd noble truth includes craving, delight/upadana and becoming. <br /><br /><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content">But I can&#039;t find the original pali suttas to see whether they use both Tanha and Upadana, or at least synonyms for Upadana. </div></div>As I explained, in the short summarised version, &#034;delight&#034; (&#034;nandi&#034;) is a synonym for &#034;upadana&#034;. <br /><br />In the long version, all twelve conditions are the 2nd noble truth, per AN 3.61, here: <a href="https&#x3a;&#x2f;&#x2f;suttacentral&#x2e;net&#x2f;an3&#x2e;61&#x2f;en&#x2f;bodhi">https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/bodhi<br /></a><span style="color: #111111"><br /></span><div class="quote"><div class="quote-content"><span style="color: #111111">Does anybody know? I&#039;m thinking that we have understimated Upadana, for which the direct cure is partly tranquility and equinimity, but also clearly seeing its role in the second noble truth</span></div></div><br />In the 1st noble truth, the Buddha summarised all suffering as &#034;upadana&#034;. When the mind attaches to a sense object, this in itself is enslavement, constrictedness &amp; stressful. Then when that attached-to sense object is lost via aging-&amp;-death, there is even more suffering, called sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief &amp; despair. <br /><br />In the 2nd noble truth, the word &#034;nandi&#034; (&#034;delight&#034;) represents upadana. In the 2nd noble truth, there are two conditions required for the arising of suffering: (i) craving; and (ii) ego-becoming. Craving alone is not the arising of suffering. There must be attachment and egoism/identity for suffering to occur/arise. <br /><br />Regards <img alt="emoticon" src="https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/karate_kid.gif" >Sat, 01 Feb 2020 09:04:22 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18462035Nicky2020-02-01T09:04:22ZQuestions for scholars of dependent originationhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18454033 I have been thinking about dependent origination - as I tend to do most days <img alt="emoticon" src="https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" > - and I have some questions that I thought might get a useful critique from the DhO. First, here is my transliteration of the traditional account of dependent origination, to accord with my own understanding as well as modern psychology.<br /><br /><em><strong>First hexapod (description of the mind)<br /></strong></em><br />Aviija - Ignorance<br />Sankhara - Subconscious mental conditioning<br />Vijnana - Dualistic perception<br />Namarupa - Semantic (conceptual) memory<br />Salavatana - Sensory Input<br />Phassa - Recogition through application of semantic memory to sensory input <br /><br /><em><strong>Second Hexapod (response of the mind)</strong></em><br /><br />Vedana - Affect<br />Tanha - Desire<br />Upadana - Arousal<br />Bhava - Urges<br />Jati - Burning in new mental conditioning<br />Dukka - Suffering<br /><br />First question - does this transliteration seems appropriate? I am particularly interested in whether Vedana - Tanha - Upadana is properly represented by Affect / Desire / Arousal (compared traditional translations of Feeling Tone / Thirst / Inflaming)<br /><br />Second question, do Tanha and Upadana correspond <em><strong>exactly</strong></em> to the second noble truth? Most of the work I&#039;ve seen concentrates on Tanha. But the suttas refer to the craving that leads to re-becoming, accompanied by delight and lust. This very much sounds like desire accompanied by arousal, leading to absorption in urges and thus new mental conditioning. But I can&#039;t find the original pali suttas to see whether they use both Tanha and Upadana, or at least synonyms for Upadana. Does anybody know? I&#039;m thinking that we have understimated Upadana, for which the direct cure is partly tranquility and equinimity, but also clearly seeing its role in the second noble truth.<br /><br />Third question. There seem to me to me to be two major types of dukka that arise from this. One is the misery of our ongoing unskilful cravings arising from the second hexapod. The second is the nagging unsatisfactoriness of our conceptual errors about self and reality, arising from the first hexapod. If so, these may have different cures - following the path steadily reduces the first type of dukkha, whereas the second type of dukkha requires insight, and eventually complete insight, to be extinguished. Thoughts?<br /><br />Thanks for reading. Any comments very welcome.<br /><br />Malcolm Sat, 01 Feb 2020 00:03:15 GMThttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&messageId=18454033Not two, not one2020-02-01T00:03:15Z