On a related note, my apologies for earlier indication in parallel discussion in suggesting Hondas problems are caused because they are having issues with a Japanese base. This seems highly untrue now as they seem to have a Milton Keynes base, according to the article above.

Reason for Sauber doing this?? Its obviously not the reliability of the Honda PU(more to follow). They want the "Honda-pays-everything-package" (et al Mclaren) as they are trying to stay afloat.

Honda just got a more "reliable" PU(so they say and reports are out saying this)...that said any change components in the PU will put them in grid spot penalty. Who knows at this point with the Honda PU....maybe there is something to salvage out of 2017 into 2018.

Reason for Sauber doing this?? Its obviously not the reliability of the Honda PU(more to follow). They want the "Honda-pays-everything-package" (et al Mclaren) as they are trying to stay afloat.

Honda just got a more "reliable" PU(so they say and reports are out saying this)...that said any change components in the PU will put them in grid spot penalty. Who knows at this point with the Honda PU....maybe there is something to salvage out of 2017 into 2018.

I agree with you... I think it's a financial decision more than a raving decision. Honda maybe paying them to take engines. And then they may not have to pay Ferrari instead.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this end up as a buy-out leading to a full or pseudo Honda team.

Maybe a Dallara chassis? How would McLaren and Honda the like to be direct competitors in F1 and Indy, while being partners at the same time. Would make more sense for them both to have tie ups in Indy and F1 giving McLaren greater access to the American markets.

Of course it has to be financially motivated. they couldn't afford Ferrari 2017 engines. I really doubt they would take Honda engines at the same or near same price as a current Ferrari PU. This is a decision that is being forced on them due to their financial situation.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this end up as a buy-out leading to a full or pseudo Honda team.

yup....it is a possibility

Originally Posted by kshitijmalkan

Maybe a Dallara chassis? How would McLaren and Honda the like to be direct competitors in F1 and Indy, while being partners at the same time. Would make more sense for them both to have tie ups in Indy and F1 giving McLaren greater access to the American markets.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Also a good possibility

Originally Posted by Tifoso

If, and only if, Honda is supplying them more cheaply, I can't say that I blame them, really. It's not like they are rolling in the dough, after all.

This is so true....they are trying to survive.

Originally Posted by Silent Bob

Of course it has to be financially motivated. they couldn't afford Ferrari 2017 engines. I really doubt they would take Honda engines at the same or near same price as a current Ferrari PU. This is a decision that is being forced on them due to their financial situation.

And it is also to not only them barking at the FIA for years that the money distributed amongst the top teams is not fair. That can be debatable as fans only come to watch Ferrari, RedBull, Mclaren and Mercedes. That said, they(Sauber) have to take matters in their own hands.

Should this deal go through, It will be paradoxial that the maker of the worst performing PU is saving some of the teams in F1 which says alot about Honda and its long-term commitment in F1 and other motorsports.

And it is also to not only them barking at the FIA for years that the money distributed amongst the top teams is not fair. That can be debatable as fans only come to watch Ferrari, RedBull, Mclaren and Mercedes. That said, they(Sauber) have to take matters in their own hands.

Should this deal go through, It will be paradoxial that the maker of the worst performing PU is saving some of the teams in F1 which says alot about Honda and its long-term commitment in F1 and other motorsports.

As teams have been barking mad about the inequality maybe the FIA is turning its screws to pressure Honda and McLaren into supplying another team.

Force India made a lot of noise, but they got a bit of cash from last season and with their 10 years in F1 they will surely be getting loyalty bonuses now. Haven't heard them making any noise over payments recently.

With Manor no more, this only leaves Sauber as a potential target for everyone in question. A team in dire financial difficulty, who can be helped resulting in a zero sum scenario.... let me explain!

1. The FIA/FOM/Liberty need to win smaller teams over, to sustain a long term plans. So they use the new manufacturer rules to make Honda provide Sauber.
2. They need to neutralise current financial debates.
3. McLaren need Honda to provide them with good engines.
4. Honda need more teams for testing and data.
6. The likes of Sauber need cheaper or potential revenue earning engines.

The only people who are bent over are Ferrari and not just financially. Ferrari loose the 3rd customer who used a old spec engine. The data they provide would have been useless in any way other than benchmarking current outputs.

There would also be a shift politically, with Mercedes having a clear upper hand via proxy as engine suppliers (Mercedes AMG, Williams Martini, Force India).

You may argue Renault have 3 customers, but RBR (Torro Rosso will eventually always follow RBR) have the advantage of being able to disconnect themselves under the TAG umbrella (advantage Mercedes). Also RBR + TR have the financial backing to dictate terms to a engine supplier, thus they cannot be used as proxies as easily.

Honda (McLaren [long term commitments and preferential status] and Sauber [cheap and needy partners]) while on paper may have equal proxies to Ferrari. Haas is a independent business with effective management and financial backing and could easily make a swap to a different manufacturer if and when needed (not an effective proxy).

A works/pseudo works Honda Sauber would only happen if the McLaren relationship breaks down completely. In this scenario McLaren move back to Mercedes (advantage Mercedes). I very much doubt Ferrari would do business with them.

In my opinion this is a political game being played, now when 2020 negotiations come along Mercedes will again be able to dictate new engine terms, while they have a 2 year head start. Their sister teams will again get a slight discountedly powered engine, while Renault/Ferrari play catchup. As Mercedes will want a more road transferable engine, Renault will play ball (their high volume sales will be helpful here) while Ferrari will have to work alongside Honeywell, Magnetti and shell to catch-up (not having a volume based business will hurt).

Ferrari do have to solidly their position here. Try and keep Sauber for the moment giving the a contract for latest units till 2021 along with a junior driver... thus using them as a proxy. As Sergio has been talking about Alfa in F1.... put the money where is mouth is and start something from the remains of Manor. This will atleast give them 2 solid proxy votes and 1 proxy out of greed and need (Sauber) finally 1 proxy vote who can go either ways.

As teams have been barking mad about the inequality maybe the FIA is turning its screws to pressure Honda and McLaren into supplying another team.

Force India made a lot of noise, but they got a bit of cash from last season and with their 10 years in F1 they will surely be getting loyalty bonuses now. Haven't heard them making any noise over payments recently.

With Manor no more, this only leaves Sauber as a potential target for everyone in question. A team in dire financial difficulty, who can be helped resulting in a zero sum scenario.... let me explain!

1. The FIA/FOM/Liberty need to win smaller teams over, to sustain a long term plans. So they use the new manufacturer rules to make Honda provide Sauber.
2. They need to neutralise current financial debates.
3. McLaren need Honda to provide them with good engines.
4. Honda need more teams for testing and data.
6. The likes of Sauber need cheaper or potential revenue earning engines.

The only people who are bent over are Ferrari and not just financially. Ferrari loose the 3rd customer who used a old spec engine. The data they provide would have been useless in any way other than benchmarking current outputs.

There would also be a shift politically, with Mercedes having a clear upper hand via proxy as engine suppliers (Mercedes AMG, Williams Martini, Force India).

You may argue Renault have 3 customers, but RBR (Torro Rosso will eventually always follow RBR) have the advantage of being able to disconnect themselves under the TAG umbrella (advantage Mercedes). Also RBR + TR have the financial backing to dictate terms to a engine supplier, thus they cannot be used as proxies as easily.

Honda (McLaren [long term commitments and preferential status] and Sauber [cheap and needy partners]) while on paper may have equal proxies to Ferrari. Haas is a independent business with effective management and financial backing and could easily make a swap to a different manufacturer if and when needed (not an effective proxy).

A works/pseudo works Honda Sauber would only happen if the McLaren relationship breaks down completely. In this scenario McLaren move back to Mercedes (advantage Mercedes). I very much doubt Ferrari would do business with them.

In my opinion this is a political game being played, now when 2020 negotiations come along Mercedes will again be able to dictate new engine terms, while they have a 2 year head start. Their sister teams will again get a slight discountedly powered engine, while Renault/Ferrari play catchup. As Mercedes will want a more road transferable engine, Renault will play ball (their high volume sales will be helpful here) while Ferrari will have to work alongside Honeywell, Magnetti and shell to catch-up (not having a volume based business will hurt).

Ferrari do have to solidly their position here. Try and keep Sauber for the moment giving the a contract for latest units till 2021 along with a junior driver... thus using them as a proxy. As Sergio has been talking about Alfa in F1.... put the money where is mouth is and start something from the remains of Manor. This will atleast give them 2 solid proxy votes and 1 proxy out of greed and need (Sauber) finally 1 proxy vote who can go either ways.

Thanks mate... but it's not much of an analysis if lay persons like us can work it out. It would be interesting to see what our friends in the team management respond with.

2017 is being made to see as Ferrari are back, but reality is that we are setting out the plans for 2020. Maybe we are back as Mercedes have peaked the cost efficiency to output and are now concentrating more on 2020 while in typical Ferrari fashion we are going for the short term plan.

If Sergio is truly eyeing up Formula E... I understand the short term plan as Ferrari do not have the financial backing to complete in two parallel series.

@kshitijmalkan You said that Mercedes will have the advantage with a more road transferable engine.
Why do you think a more road transferable hybrid engine in F1 can hurt us? Ferrari is not capable enough of producing such an engine? Or did you meant it will hurt Ferrari financially because we need an engine more suitable for supercars or hypercars?

And yeah, Honda really had a facility in Milton Keynes However, i think they lack engine experts from the F1 world.

Back on topic, i can completely understand why Sauber is doing this. First of all, they will get an engine for very cheap. And second, they will get a current year engine. Yeah, Honda sucks now, but you don't know for next year. It will be interesting to see the new PU Honda announced for Spain. So, if Ferrari wants to keep Sauber as a customer, they need to give them a better deal than Honda. That way, no one can force Sauber into ditching Ferrari. And i don't think any team can be a 100% reliable proxy except if its owned by the same corporation like Red Bull and TR. For example, Williams can easily ditch Mercedes for Renault if they get a better deal. So, if we want a 100% reliable proxy, we need Alfa Romeo in F1.

Red Bull are also in a dire need of an exclusive engine distributor. They are sticking with Renault because they don't have another choice. I think Red Bull will be pushing hard for cheaper and more simpler racing engines so they can bring another manufacturer to work exclusively for them. If we don't get a more simpler engine, they might leave right before the new engine regulations.

@kshitijmalkan You said that Mercedes will have the advantage with a more road transferable engine.
Why do you think a more road transferable hybrid engine in F1 can hurt us? Ferrari is not capable enough of producing such an engine? Or did you meant it will hurt Ferrari financially because we need an engine more suitable for supercars or hypercars?

And yeah, Honda really had a facility in Milton Keynes However, i think they lack engine experts from the F1 world.

Back on topic, i can completely understand why Sauber is doing this. First of all, they will get an engine for very cheap. And second, they will get a current year engine. Yeah, Honda sucks now, but you don't know for next year. It will be interesting to see the new PU Honda announced for Spain. So, if Ferrari wants to keep Sauber as a customer, they need to give them a better deal than Honda. That way, no one can force Sauber into ditching Ferrari. And i don't think any team can be a 100% reliable proxy except if its owned by the same corporation like Red Bull and TR. For example, Williams can easily ditch Mercedes for Renault if they get a better deal. So, if we want a 100% reliable proxy, we need Alfa Romeo in F1.

Red Bull are also in a dire need of an exclusive engine distributor. They are sticking with Renault because they don't have another choice. I think Red Bull will be pushing hard for cheaper and more simpler racing engines so they can bring another manufacturer to work exclusively for them. If we don't get a more simpler engine, they might leave right before the new engine regulations.

This is where RB are playing their cards. They are negotiating (Threatening to leave sport), if they don't get cheaper engines.
Mercs played their part to get its hybrid era 2014 to 2020. RB played their part for till 2013.
I'm worried about ferrari, where they might loose their power in setting or have their say in rules. Sergio M should act in smart way such that they don't loose their customer team & bring another manufacturer who is loyal to ferrari. That will give power back to ferrari, where they can dictate the terms for 2020 regulation changes.
Also we know, ferrari bonus pay is under threat too. Sergio should handle this situation carefully, so that rivals don't get upper hand this time.

As teams have been barking mad about the inequality maybe the FIA is turning its screws to pressure Honda and McLaren into supplying another team.

Force India made a lot of noise, but they got a bit of cash from last season and with their 10 years in F1 they will surely be getting loyalty bonuses now. Haven't heard them making any noise over payments recently.

With Manor no more, this only leaves Sauber as a potential target for everyone in question. A team in dire financial difficulty, who can be helped resulting in a zero sum scenario.... let me explain!

1. The FIA/FOM/Liberty need to win smaller teams over, to sustain a long term plans. So they use the new manufacturer rules to make Honda provide Sauber.
2. They need to neutralise current financial debates.
3. McLaren need Honda to provide them with good engines.
4. Honda need more teams for testing and data.
6. The likes of Sauber need cheaper or potential revenue earning engines.

The only people who are bent over are Ferrari and not just financially. Ferrari loose the 3rd customer who used a old spec engine. The data they provide would have been useless in any way other than benchmarking current outputs.

There would also be a shift politically, with Mercedes having a clear upper hand via proxy as engine suppliers (Mercedes AMG, Williams Martini, Force India).

You may argue Renault have 3 customers, but RBR (Torro Rosso will eventually always follow RBR) have the advantage of being able to disconnect themselves under the TAG umbrella (advantage Mercedes). Also RBR + TR have the financial backing to dictate terms to a engine supplier, thus they cannot be used as proxies as easily.

Honda (McLaren [long term commitments and preferential status] and Sauber [cheap and needy partners]) while on paper may have equal proxies to Ferrari. Haas is a independent business with effective management and financial backing and could easily make a swap to a different manufacturer if and when needed (not an effective proxy).

A works/pseudo works Honda Sauber would only happen if the McLaren relationship breaks down completely. In this scenario McLaren move back to Mercedes (advantage Mercedes). I very much doubt Ferrari would do business with them.

In my opinion this is a political game being played, now when 2020 negotiations come along Mercedes will again be able to dictate new engine terms, while they have a 2 year head start. Their sister teams will again get a slight discountedly powered engine, while Renault/Ferrari play catchup. As Mercedes will want a more road transferable engine, Renault will play ball (their high volume sales will be helpful here) while Ferrari will have to work alongside Honeywell, Magnetti and shell to catch-up (not having a volume based business will hurt).

Ferrari do have to solidly their position here. Try and keep Sauber for the moment giving the a contract for latest units till 2021 along with a junior driver... thus using them as a proxy. As Sergio has been talking about Alfa in F1.... put the money where is mouth is and start something from the remains of Manor. This will atleast give them 2 solid proxy votes and 1 proxy out of greed and need (Sauber) finally 1 proxy vote who can go either ways.

Hmm its a fairly tale and I do dream but what if Sauber can get the Honda engine performing better than Macca ever could.
Good luck to them I say.
Peter Sauber ran a good little team but sadly it has been short of cash for a few years!!!!

Firstly, with Mercedes already having pushed a Hybrid system, which they extensively built prior to the confirmation seems purely on the grounds that they had the political connect to do so at the time. With Mercedes bringing hybrids out INA daily basis, they already have a good understanding of the systems. Renault have extensive partnerships with other manufacturers who are doing the same. These two manufacturers build main stream consumer cars. They have much larger budget capacity and much more access and to funds under the disguise of marketing. They have the capacity and do built native systems, which are much more effective.

Ferrari on the other hand, are a small company in direct comparison. Although with deep pockets, they are no where close to the larger teams. After all, Ferrari only sell very small numbers of very desirable cars. Exclusivity does bring a higher return per car, but volume based selling brings a higher return overall. Keeping business models in mind, Ferrari do have the capacity to build hybrid systems, but it's much more reliable on their partners and their products integrating. Thus loosing on nativity nature of the system. It's a bit like comparing apple products to android.

So yes, Ferrari systems are more catered to performance machines, but Mercedes, Renault and Honda will want systems which will sell their cars. And I am not talking the Mercedes AMG GTS, more like the Mercedes A and C class.

As they already have resources within these areas, they will want more efficiency from them, thus pushing them to dictate a mass marketable engine.

Ferrari are loosing a partner, who has been loyal. And yes Sauber are certainly right to oust Ferrari to stick their agenda (who wouldn't). The question is will Sergio play the game and undercut Mercedes' potential supply to gain an upper hand in future negotiations?

And surely, teams are free to go where ever. And yes, RB are sticking to Renault coz no one will provide them with engines. But that's their problem, after the 2014-2015 debacle no one wants to sell them anything. Renault are doing it out of need and so are RB. So RB proxy vote for Renault arises from their need for each other (atleast for the moment).

Polarising opinions is the adhesive in these relations, neutrality by Haas and Force India is what keeps their options open to all engine suppliers, while Saubers needs what makes them a perfect target for bigger teams to incentivise dragging them into political uncertainty.

I am now more so convinced Mercedes are actually scared of Ferrari's resurgence and potential. Which is why this new chapter is being started. My reinforcements is from Mercedes now offering technical help to Honda. And the inclusion of Ilmor who is closely linked to Renault and RB. It seems like a nexus formed by Mercedes to keep control away from Ferrari but forming coalitions with Renault to improve Honda, thus depriving Ferrari of partners, pressurising them on the track with more competitors and finally using this political agenda to distract the top brass at Marenello.

Sergio's potential departure could prove further bad news for us as if he has lost the shareholders confidence he may both ace the mandate and will do do anything about these changes. This will only lead to Ferrari having to play catch up again, leaving the team in mid field like years gone by. Tifosi, enjoy this current run of success, coz there realistically is another barren patch ahead.

I also had a though about the RBs.... they are partnered with Audi in other race series. A company that is attending negotiations. This could possibly result in RBR forming a new works team, with Audi engines. This is something they have always wanted, but never been able to achieve.

While all independents can move freely, they are more than likely to stay put. The only team this fails is Haas who with their earned neutrality can shop for any engines.

In this case again, Audi now have two teams. Mercedes 3, Honda 2, Renault 1 and Ferrari two.

In any scenario I have worked out in my head Ferrari seem to be battling by them selves, with Haas as a partner. Ferrari desperately needs another solid no options proxy (Aka Alpha Romeo) or let's start talking a new racing formula.

kshitijmalkan - again, another good analysis as to what is a good possibility of things to come; hypotheitcally speaking of course but a good one as we are reading hints of the possible formula for 2020 in 2021 but it looks to be favoring the KERS(eletrical) unit only including the ICE/ATMO/NA...V-6. You do see the "chess pieces" at play. I believe once Honda gets their PU troubles out of the way (help from Mercedes possibly) and supplying 2 teams as an engine supplier, they might enter as a constructor and be a player for the WCC title. Mercedes might pull out pre-2020 or on 2020 once they, supposedly have dominated the sport, achieving their goal in F1 as well as the tech to be put for road relevance in their lower priced high volume niche market automobiles AND pursue electric ala FE...like BMW and Audi. Ferrari has mentioned they are going to pursue electric as well but with SM gone in 2019...things might change with someone else at the helm. They(MB) probably do not see F1 as a long-term strategic investment after 2020 from a constructor standpoint BUT will probably be an engine supplier for the rest involved in F1....still making money from the PU. I have always said volume is king in this global market and being heavily diverse (auto's, trucks, aerospace, lawnmowers, generators, motorcycles) in various markets and selling in all price ranges will reign supreme in the coming century.

kshitijmalkan - again, another good analysis as to what is a good possibility of things to come; hypotheitcally speaking of course but a good one as we are reading hints of the possible formula for 2020 in 2021 but it looks to be favoring the KERS(eletrical) unit only including the ICE/ATMO/NA...V-6. You do see the "chess pieces" at play. I believe once Honda gets their PU troubles out of the way (help from Mercedes possibly) and supplying 2 teams as an engine supplier, they might enter as a constructor and be a player for the WCC title. Mercedes might pull out pre-2020 or on 2020 once they, supposedly have dominated the sport, achieving their goal in F1 as well as the tech to be put for road relevance in their lower priced high volume niche market automobiles AND pursue electric ala FE...like BMW and Audi. Ferrari has mentioned they are going to pursue electric as well but with SM gone in 2019...things might change with someone else at the helm. They(MB) probably do not see F1 as a long-term strategic investment after 2020 from a constructor standpoint BUT will probably be an engine supplier for the rest involved in F1....still making money from the PU. I have always said volume is king in this global market and being heavily diverse (auto's, trucks, aerospace, lawnmowers, generators, motorcycles) in various markets and selling in all price ranges will reign supreme in the coming century.

For just one second let's drop our loyalties for the team... Formula1 is not just a sport, but more importantly it's business. The teams are in all their capacity are mere ventures to enhance the USP of their parent group and its partners.

I agree Volume is king in the industry... hence all the complex partnerships across different automotive and aviation sectors.

Let's take a look at the possible motives of each manufacturer -

1. Ferrari - Brand Enhancement (sales is just not a factor, Mercedes probably (assumption, please don't take literally) sell more Smart Cars than Ferrari does of all their models together.)

6. Force India - although founded to market the kingfisher/United Breweries brand... they are just here to race at the moment.

7. Haas - Marketting of Haas car parts business.

A few things to note

1. This is only a basic list of reasons they are/might be in F1. And it's only things at the top of my head.

2. As the sports/GT/performance cars segment is low on volume and potential buyers are biased with passion, showcasing technology is not an ultimate priority as the conversion to sales may be insignificant. The brand enhancement factor is much more of a sales driver as it directly converts into heritage. Ultimately the sales volumes are no where significant in direct comparison to the others.

3. Sauber is not included as I am not sure as to say about them other than they are a racing team.

-----

What I'm trying to say above is, Mercedes, Renault and Honda have far more to loose than Ferrari (more so than) and McLaren. A few dotted seasons on the trot haven't affected sales.... neither has it driven down road car innovations.

On the other hand Mercedes' dominance has been directly proportionate to the increase in road car sales. With Mercedes now targeting the baby mercs and it's potential buyers they are directly getting in the path of Renault and Honda.

Young savvy buyer are picking up the keys to smaller Mercs more often when compared to BMW and Audi. These Savvy buyers are also looking to drive the "best in the world" for a few extra $$$$ over the likes of Renault and Honda. These company are now fighting back by offering better builds as well.

People want that feeling that they are driving cars derived from Formula1 tech. They want to show their friends , they are better. But people arnt fussed as to what engine the cars have. Else the A180 would be selling like hot cake, neither would be the C200. They just want to know and shown it's the same set of wheels Lewis Hamilton maybe driving. Being an engine manufacturer doesn't get you as much of a bang for buck as being a works teams. Hence I think it's too early for manufacturers to quit. As long as electric cars don't get efficient enough to justify a 10 hr charging time, the equation won't change. Teams will continue in F1.

This is also why Mercedes and Renault will want a hybrid system post 2020. It is in their best interest to market such gadgets. In return to minimise their losses, they will also push for more market applicable engine solutions. And I think that's great for cast number of consumers.

Although Ferrari can put up with these demands... It technology won't be as relevant to their road car division, hindering their returns from competitive racing.

Formula1 needs to address its own USP. Ferrari need more support. Mercedes won't leave any time soon. PE is still a while away to bed seen as a major competitor.

The chess play will continue on all matters, ultimately as I said this is a business and the investment has to yield a return.

I hope Sergio gets his act together and I wish Saubervtge best of luck where they end up.

Besides marketing their energy drink, do you think Red Bull are developing and showcasing technology of their own in F1? Do they make a lot of money by collaborating with car manufacturers like Aston Martin? I also think i read somewhere that they worked for NASA on composite materials or something, but i'm not quite sure...

Besides marketing their energy drink, do you think Red Bull are developing and showcasing technology of their own in F1? Do they make a lot of money by collaborating with car manufacturers like Aston Martin? I also think i read somewhere that they worked for NASA on composite materials or something, but i'm not quite sure...

Redbulls Dietrich Mateschitz(owns 49% of RB) and the Thai Yoovidhya family (49% eldest and son owns 2%) make alot and I mean alot of money to own two teams in F1. I believe its cheaper for them to buy from an engine supplier rather than make their own engines given the current complex and highly expensive PU. Don't know about the NASA thing?????