know who else gave great speeches and who also drove a country to ruin

The country's doing better than it was, so whoever you're comparing him to...let's just say it's a specious analogy.

that will be the same as a dog chasing his tail
raising min wage increases inflation which increases cost of living so then they would have to increase min wage again which in turn increases inflation that increases cost of living and around and around we go

"The greatest nation on Earth..." Don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing the US. I'm just a bit sick of the blind patriotism/nationalism. It's a bit surprising, at least for me, that there generally seems to be this idea among a lot of Americans that their country is the best in the world. It's obvious that these people never bothered to, for example, check some indexes and compare the US to other countries. It's pretty high up, and even if it was the best country in the world (let's say, to live in), wouldn't it be a bit silly to go around saying it (I mean, okay, I'd understand that if it came from an average citizen, but the president?) and shoving it down the throats of others with "I'm a special snowflake" type of talk?

While I disagree with anyone saying they or anyone is a special snowflake, it's extremely common for ANY country to say "We're the greatest." I don't believe it's blind patriotism or nationalism most of the time, especially when coming from someone that's... Y'know... The "leader" of our country. It would be like a business who truly has some of the most delicious steak (Even if their mashed potatoes need some work.) and not saying "Our steak is the best."

The country's doing better than it was, so whoever you're comparing him to...let's just say it's a specious analogy.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Hitler. The only reason Hitler was good at speeches was because he knew to appeal to emotion, particularly the strongest one he thought the Germans had at the time - nationalism.

As for Obama... I don' know, I'm an unbiased observer and to me it seems he isn't appealing to anything.

---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 06:17 PM ----------

Originally Posted by SageKalzi

While I disagree with anyone saying they or anyone is a special snowflake, it's extremely common for ANY country to say "We're the greatest." I don't believe it's blind patriotism or nationalism most of the time, especially when coming from someone that's... Y'know... The "leader" of our country. It would be like a business who truly has some of the most delicious steak (Even if their mashed potatoes need some work.) and not saying "Our steak is the best."

Obviously, all IMO, lol.

The issue is the fact that the only people I've ever heard say they think their country is the best were Americans and Brits (although the Brits that do say that would generally be considered extremist by any other normal Brits while Americans thinking America is the best country in the world isn't extremist... in the contrary, it's considered to be a social norm). Excluding non-developed countries, of course.

"The greatest nation on Earth..." Don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing the US. I'm just a bit sick of the blind patriotism/nationalism. It's a bit surprising, at least for me, that there generally seems to be this idea among a lot of Americans that their country is the best in the world. It's obvious that these people never bothered to, for example, check some indexes and compare the US to other countries. It's pretty high up, and even if it was the best country in the world (let's say, to live in), wouldn't it be a bit silly to go around saying it (I mean, okay, I'd understand that if it came from an average citizen, but the president?) and shoving it down the throats of others with "I'm a special snowflake" type of talk?

How about Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Luxemburg, Lichtenstein (don't know if you want to count those two in), Ireland, Japan, Switzerland?

Furthermore, countries I'd say are on about the same level as the US or slightly worse: The UK, Germany, Slovenia, Finland, Iceland, South Korea, Belgium, Israel, the Czech Republic, France, Germany, Austria, Spain, Italy, Greece.

"The greatest nation on Earth..." Don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing the US. I'm just a bit sick of the blind patriotism/nationalism. It's a bit surprising, at least for me, that there generally seems to be this idea among a lot of Americans that their country is the best in the world. It's obvious that these people never bothered to, for example, check some indexes and compare the US to other countries. It's pretty high up, and even if it was the best country in the world (let's say, to live in), wouldn't it be a bit silly to go around saying it (I mean, okay, I'd understand that if it came from an average citizen, but the president?) and shoving it down the throats of others with "I'm a special snowflake" type of talk?

I understand there are blind patriots, but understand that not all patriots are blind. There are as many reason to love America as there are to hate it. We can measure the 'greatness' of countries plenty of different ways. And if a large portion of the world ran around disparaging Croatia after it swept us out of two world wars, concluded a cold war without plunging us all into a nuclear winter and put a man on the moon - I don't think I'd give you a lot of trouble about saying, "Croatia is the greatest country on earth."

Because I think you can love your country, rather not live anywahere else, and be thankful for your circumstances and heritage that you wouldn't enjoy in other countries - and still be a critical, active voice of change of that same country. And I don't think there's anyone who better fits that description than Obama during the SotU.

What would you expect him to say after a slow, steady crawl of recovery following the recession when he addresses his nation? "Hey guys, so things are pretty good - even if we're not the best, at least we're doing better than some countries." I think that's probably the one place where it makes sense to inspire and give people the hope they need to invest themselves more in their cities, communities, and country so that we can work together to continue pulling ourselves out of the mess we got into. I don't think Obama shoved it down anyone's throat - he was addressing the USA, not France, not China, not Russia, not Iran, not Turkey - just the USA.

I understand there are blind patriots, but understand that not all patriots are blind. There are as many reason to love America as there are to hate it. We can measure the 'greatness' of countries plenty of different ways. And if a large portion of the world ran around disparaging Croatia after it swept us out of two world wars, concluded a cold war without plunging us all into a nuclear winter and put a man on the moon - I don't think I'd give you a lot of trouble about saying, "Croatia is the greatest country on earth."

This is why the world gets angry with America. You didn't "sweep" anyone out of the World Wars, you were part of them as much as the other powers. You didn't conclude the Cold War, the USSR was unsustainable. And God knows what putting a man on the moon wins you - the USSR put the first man in space and their country collapsed.

Feel free to love your country but the world often dislikes America because America - and by this I mean the corporations and government - does incredibly stupid, evil and violent things. It's not unique in this fact, it just happens to be the biggest and comes with a big dose of propaganda along with it.

that's such a simplistic and narrow-minded view of what makes a country. it's the same as those nationalists who say because they have guns it's a free country.

Well you didn't give a definition of what makes a country great. I think human development and equality are two bloody amazing things because it reflects everyone and how well off they are.

I always judge a country on how it treats its marginalised, poor, sick and needy.

In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.

Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.

I understand there are blind patriots, but understand that not all patriots are blind.

I don't consider patriotism to be bad. I consider indoctrination to the point of irrational (blind) patriotism to be bad.

Originally Posted by Stede

And if a large portion of the world ran around disparaging Croatia after it swept us out of two world wars, concluded a cold war without plunging us all into a nuclear winter and put a man on the moon - I don't think I'd give you a lot of trouble about saying, "Croatia is the greatest country on earth."

So, wait, I should be grateful that you didn't nuke the world to shit? By this logic Russia is also the greatest country in the world. Regarding putting the man on the moon. Basing the greatness of a country on this is equally arbitrary as it would be basing it on who put a man in space first. And, again, based on that, Russia would be first. Seriously, there's nothing magnificent about American space achievements when you compare them to the Russian ones. Go to 3:00. Russia wins by a staggering amount. People think landing a man on the Moon first was something amazing simply because American propaganda made it so.

Either way, all that you said are entirely arbitrary arguments that don't actually objectively prove anything. They're arguments you'd use to stroke your ego. I could, for example, use this silly argument to prove that America isn't the greatest country in the world; an idiot such as Bush was actually chosen as the president. Twice. A bigot such as Romney was almost chosen. But basing the greatness of a country on such standards would simply be stupid.

Originally Posted by Stede

Because I think you can love your country, rather not live anywahere else, and be thankful for your circumstances and heritage that you wouldn't enjoy in other countries - and still be a critical, active voice of change of that same country. And I don't think there's anyone who better fits that description than Obama during the SotU.

I love my country. I'd rather not live anywhere else. I'm thankful of my circumstances and heritage. However, just because my country is the perfect one for me doesn't mean it's most perfect country in the world, which is exactly what Barack Obama said. My country is perfect for me because it's my country. The US is perfect for Obama because it's his country. I have absolutely no issues recognizing the fact there are about 40 countries that are better than mine out there. Why can't you recognize the fact there are a dozen in your case, by any international rating you'd like?

Originally Posted by Stede

What would you expect him to say after a slow, steady crawl of recovery following the recession when he addresses his nation?

Not ego stroking for sure. But yeah, this isn't his fault. It's the American condition. European countries are all having huge issues with the recession. However, you will not find one president, one prime minister, one parliamentary representative in any European country that has so far during this recession said or alluded to their constituency that their country is the best. I'm sure it's the same for Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

Originally Posted by Stede

"Hey guys, so things are pretty good - even if we're not the best, at least we're doing better than some countries."

That works perfectly.

Originally Posted by Stede

I don't think Obama shoved it down anyone's throat - he was addressing the USA, not France, not China, not Russia, not Iran, not Turkey - just the USA.

Just because he wasn't addressing foreigners (and it would be an outrage if he actually said that in a speech directed at foreigners) doesn't mean he gets the right to lie. Well, he does, but he doesn't get off without me thinking he's a shit president (at least in that regard) for it.

---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 09:05 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Raybourne

that's such a simplistic and narrow-minded view of what makes a country. it's the same as those nationalists who say because they have guns it's a free country.

It's the only objective standard to measure how good a country is compared to other countries; the standard of life. Everything else is subjective ego stroking.

I mean, let's put aside all of this. Let's assume the US is indeed the greatest country in the world. You honestly want your president telling you that? Stroking your ego with that? Calling you a special snowflake? It's not morally healthy for a nation to assume it's greatest because that subconsciously makes you think there's nothing wrong with your country. I mean, the proof is the fact that this whole "America is the greatest country in the world" rhetoric has resulted in Americans thinking their country is exceptional in such a way that they shouldn't look up to other developed countries in the world for healthy policies. Examples? Healthcare, gun rights, capital punishment, etc.