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Topic: Taylor set up for string height (Read 7603 times)

Last night I pulled out my 514ce and the strings were buzzing, so I checked the neck and sure enough it needed a truss rod adjustment. I got it done and the neck is nice and straight, but now I have all kinds of buzzing all up and down the neck on all strings. I can tell the strings are way to low compared to my other guitars.

Did I change the neck improperly, I have not changed the bridge on this guitar, but do I need to raise the bridge with a new bridge or shim it?

Next thing, what is the standard string height(Taylor settings)? Where is that measured from the top of the fret wire or and the fingerboard?

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As you slide down the banister of life, may the splinters never point the wrong way.

Sounds like that old demon "lack of humidity" may have visited you. I also suspect that you may have gone the wrong way w/the truss rod. Rightey-tighty lefty-loosey If you're buzzing like crazy, loosen about 1/4 turn to put a little relief(bow) in the neck.When is the last time you had it out? Changes rarely occur overnight.Check out the tech sheets on neck adjustment if you have them. If not check out the website or google truss rod adjustment.According to my Taylor rep, factory specs is 5/64"-3/32" from the bottom of the big E string to the top of the 12th fret. I've rarely seen a factory set-up this low on a new instrument. Most I've seen lately are are about 7/64".I wouldn't shim or replace the saddle unless absolutely necessary.Hope this helps.Steve

hi Mike,i was wondering which 514ce this was on (the 03, with fretboard cracks or the 07),which strings were buzzing & where (which frets) before you adjusted the truss rod,how long you've had those strings on the guitar (about how many hours of play time) &the height of the saddle (it is around 7-8/64 at the E & 5-6/64 at the e, or is it much lower)

sighting the neck before you made the truss rod adjustment, did it seem to haveexcessive relief with an exaggerated forward bow & since the truss rod adjustmenthas the neck relief been rechecked to verify that there is still adequate relief

also, how is the overall condition of the frets, as if the guitar inquestion is the 03, i would think it has been played quite a bit

the NT neck is designed to where the neck angle can be set to maintain adequatesaddle height for good string break angle, so if someone either unfamiliar with theNT neck or lacking the correct shims & understanding of how the neck should be setthey may have merely taken the height of the saddle down in order to bring the actionwithin the desired range & in doing so change in humidity & improper neck reliefmay have compounded the problem, especially if the fretboard has dried out &shrunk to the point where cracks have developed, along with sharp fret ends

a little more info would help & pics & measurements even moreso, as it is very difficultto try to 'diagnose' a concern such as this & make suggestions through text in a post

As you say, the neck is straight ...well I would certainly hope so! Seriously, you don't mention how much relief you've left in the neck. That relief (i.e. neck bow, or lack thereof), in combo with the string height, determines how much space there is for the strings to vibrate in their arc. Given that you have not altered the saddle height and only changed relief by tweaking the truss rod, I'd say you've got the neck with too little relief if you've got buzzing all over the place; i.e. neck is too straight. Fret at the first and 14th, then check the distance at around the 6-7th fret. That's your gauge. Try 1/4 turn looser (add bow; more relief), and see if that gets you there. BTW, Taylor offers their factory setup, but action is a highly personal setting that accomodates one's style, so what you like is what's right.

i was wondering which 514ce this was on (the 03, with fretboard cracks or the 07),which strings were buzzing & where (which frets) before you adjusted the truss rod,how long you've had those strings on the guitar (about how many hours of play time) &the height of the saddle (it is around 7-8/64 at the E & 5-6/64 at the e, or is it much lower)

sighting the neck before you made the truss rod adjustment, did it seem to haveexcessive relief with an exaggerated forward bow & since the truss rod adjustmenthas the neck relief been rechecked to verify that there is still adequate relief

also, how is the overall condition of the frets, as if the guitar inquestion is the 03, i would think it has been played quite a bit

the NT neck is designed to where the neck angle can be set to maintain adequatesaddle height for good string break angle, so if someone either unfamiliar with theNT neck or lacking the correct shims & understanding of how the neck should be setthey may have merely taken the height of the saddle down in order to bring the actionwithin the desired range & in doing so change in humidity & improper neck reliefmay have compounded the problem, especially if the fretboard has dried out &shrunk to the point where cracks have developed, along with sharp fret ends

a little more info would help & pics & measurements even moreso, as it is very difficultto try to 'diagnose' a concern such as this & make suggestions through text in a post

I am working on the 2007 514. The strings have about 5 hours of play time on them. The E string has 3/64 at the saddle and the e has 2/64. These will not be 100% accurate measurements, but close.

The neck relief before adjustment had a downward bow to it, I did not measure it. I relieved some of that. I loosened the truss nut moving the nut towards the E string 1/4 turn. This left a slight bow to the neck as I have re-checked it this morning. The Taylor tech sheet sez:"Notice that if you sight down the neck to the top of the bridge, the top of the frets and the bride are on the same plane". To me this means there should be no relief(downward bow)on the neck, but this is why I am asking you all.

Checking the condition of the frets: overall very good only slight indentations on 1-3 frets at the e and B string. It will be a long time before I need the frets worked on.

Overall I feel from the information you(Michael and Edward) have given me the string height is to low, I don't feel I have adequate saddle height. What are your thoughts?

Quote

Sounds like that old demon "lack of humidity" may have visited you.

I don't think I have a humidity problem because I have checked the arch on the top and bottom of the body and have a slight arch side to side, it looks similar to the tech sheet examples.

Logged

As you slide down the banister of life, may the splinters never point the wrong way.

The Taylor tech sheet sez:"Notice that if you sight down the neck to the top of the bridge, the top of the frets and the bride are on the same plane". To me this means there should be no relief(downward bow)on the neck, but this is why I am asking you all.

If the neck is straight (no relief). If it has relief then sight only the lower portion of the neck.

relief is to be .004-.007 measured in the middle of the neck with a capo at the first fret and the string fretted at 14.

hi Mike,from what it sound like, initially the neck had negative relief (a 'back' bow) &by adjusting the truss rod, the neck now has some relief (or 'forward' bow)

the saddle height is extremely low at 3/64" E & 2/64" e & twice that heightis what i would consider much more desirable, in terms of string break angle

as dangrunloh stated, it is possible to set the neck with very little relief, althoughdepending on the gauges of string used, pick (if any) & aggressiveness of attack,the relief may need to be set to one's personal preference to eliminate buzzing

my take on it is that your 07 514ce should be looked at by an authorized Taylortech or one that is familiar with the NT neck/reset process & has the proper shims -this will require a replacement saddle as well, as using a 3/64" ebony shim i wouldnot recommend, as that combination would not be stable in restoring saddle height

given the guitar is properly humidified, the frets are in good condition/correctly seated &there are no other concerns (loose hardware, etc) a neck reset & new saddle shouldbe able to take care of it - i had this done to an 814ceLTD yesterday & it's 'perfect' now

hi Mike,i was wondering which 514ce this was on (the 03, with fretboard cracks or the 07),which strings were buzzing & where (which frets) before you adjusted the truss rod,how long you've had those strings on the guitar (about how many hours of play time) &the height of the saddle (it is around 7-8/64 at the E & 5-6/64 at the e, or is it much lower)

Michael, I'm getting an education reading this thread, so I have to ask a question. How can one measure the height of a string relative to the saddle, when the saddle is nowhere near the fretboard but is in the bridge? Where is such a measurement taken? Confused due to my own ignorance.......

hi Mike,i was wondering which 514ce this was on (the 03, with fretboard cracks or the 07),which strings were buzzing & where (which frets) before you adjusted the truss rod,how long you've had those strings on the guitar (about how many hours of play time) &the height of the saddle (it is around 7-8/64 at the E & 5-6/64 at the e, or is it much lower)

Michael, I'm getting an education reading this thread, so I have to ask a question. How can one measure the height of a string relative to the saddle, when the saddle is nowhere near the fretboard but is in the bridge? Where is such a measurement taken? Confused due to my own ignorance.......

with an exposed saddle height of 3/64" E & 2/64" e, neck relief correctly set & theaction at the 12 fret not being to be set near 6/64" E & 4/64" e tells me that theneck needs to be reset, because save for any other issues (humidity, warpage,sinking or swelling of the top, etc) this string height should easily be attainablewith a saddle that has over double the exposed height, at around 7/64" E & 5/64" e -a saddle that's significantly higher that that can cause undue stress on the bridge &saddle slot & although the neck may be able to be shimmed to set the action below6/64" E & 4/64" (which is a 'base-line') with a full height Tusq saddle, it is not recommended

Go Navy.. I believe Michael is speaking of the saddle height at the bridge. In other words the distance from the top of the bridge to the bottom of the string.Depending on the angle cut in the saddle top, the strings contact more or less of the saddle as they cross it. With any pre-cut saddles, there is a narrow window for the string to contact the entire top of the saddle. The slant of the saddle in the bridge allows good intonation w/maximum contact.IMHO the more string on the saddle, the more energy transfer = more sound. When I build a saddle from scratch, I first fit the entire blank to the slot.Then I radius the top of the saddle close to where i believe the action needs to be leaving the string bearing surface flat, but the length of the saddle top radiused to match the fingerboard.(on my personal Taylors, I go 14" instead of 15" as I tend to hammer the D and G strings)Next, I string the guitar and note any necessary action or radius modifications. I then make these modifications leaving the top of the saddle flat,w/all the strings breaking on the front edge of and contacting the saddle across it's entire width.The strings come off again after noting where intonation adjustments need to be made. After these adjustments, it's restring and fine tune the intonation.Then I angle (relieve) the back side to get a good string angle out of the pin hole w/maximum string contact on the saddle crown.Sometimes with a low saddle, I slot the bridge, as much as possible, so the string is free from the bridge plate to the saddle without stressing the actual saddle. The slot ends up kinda rounded inside the hole.Then comes final polishing to the desired luster. The last thing I do is "bone" the bearing surface of the saddle. I do this in the vise with a piece of 440 stainless steel rod(the bone) that has been polished glass smooth.(You can use glass). I repeatedly rub the top of the saddle w/the bone until I feel it's as smooth and hard as possible. By doing this the strings don't leave as severe marks on the saddle and those annoying little squeaks and rubs are all but eliminated. Boning is an old wooden baseball bat technique, and another essay entirely. A good piece of bone or ivory prepared this way will actually last 20+ years without any need to replace it. I've seen old Martins, that w/a neck reset could have retained a 40 year old saddle.And that's how S MS Picker builds a custom saddle. It's not cheap, but quality never is.Steve

Go Navy.. I believe Michael is speaking of the saddle height at the bridge. In other words the distance from the top of the bridge to the bottom of the string.Depending on the angle cut in the saddle top, the strings contact more or less of the saddle as they cross it. With any pre-cut saddles, there is a narrow window for the string to contact the entire top of the saddle. The slant of the saddle in the bridge allows good intonation w/maximum contact.IMHO the more string on the saddle, the more energy transfer = more sound.

Steve

Fascinating.....thanks to both Michael and Steve. But doesn't all this depend on the height of the bridge itself? In other words, are you saying that all bridges are the same height, and the height variable at the bridge is only is the saddle height above the bridge, not the dimension of the bridge itself? Put another way, could guitar A have a tall bridge and a short saddle, and guitar B have a short bridge and a tall saddle? If so, why is the height of the saddle itself the critical dimension (from the top of the bridge to the bottom of the string)?

Go Navy.. I believe Michael is speaking of the saddle height at the bridge. In other words the distance from the top of the bridge to the bottom of the string.Depending on the angle cut in the saddle top, the strings contact more or less of the saddle as they cross it. With any pre-cut saddles, there is a narrow window for the string to contact the entire top of the saddle. The slant of the saddle in the bridge allows good intonation w/maximum contact.IMHO the more string on the saddle, the more energy transfer = more sound.

Steve

Fascinating.....thanks to both Michael and Steve. But doesn't all this depend on the height of the bridge itself? In other words, are you saying that all bridges are the same height, and the height variable at the bridge is only is the saddle height above the bridge, not the dimension of the bridge itself? Put another way, could guitar A have a tall bridge and a short saddle, and guitar B have a short bridge and a tall saddle? If so, why is the height of the saddle itself the critical dimension (from the top of the bridge to the bottom of the string)?

I'm 80% there in understanding, I hope......take me to the other 20%!

hi Navy,as far as i know, at least on NT neck Taylors (beginning in 99/later), the actual pin bridges(whether it be ebony, cocobolo, rosewood or macassar ebony) that are used are the sameheight (with different sizes for the mini, baby & big baby) - they don't vary in height orthickness as may be the case for other builders that use a glued-in 'set' dovetail neck joint -in the case of some of the dovetail neck guitars, there is an option of low, medium or highaction (if the guitar is ordered from the factory, even if it is a 'stock' model, with no options),which usually will be a different height saddle (once the bridge selection has been made)

saddle height itself is important because if there is inadequate exposed saddle height(above the bridge slot) the string break angle is reduced & the vibration from the stringsthat drive the saddle, bridge, bridge plate, bracing & top are diminished & sometimes thedifference can be as little as between 1/64" & 1/32" at the saddle (too low & the guitarseems to lose a significant amount of its 'voice') - i've seen it happen & done it a time or 2

too much saddle height (exposed above the bridge slot) will put an excess amount of unduetension on the bridge slot & bridge, with a general rule of thumb is roughly half the heightof the saddle should be in the saddle slot & the other half above it & this can vary a bit also,if an under saddle transducer pick up is used for instance (depending on the pick up used)

Micheal--NavyDead on on all counts."too much saddle height (exposed above the bridge slot) will put an excess amount of unduetension on the bridge slot & bridge, with a general rule of thumb is roughly half the heightof the saddle should be in the saddle slot & the other half above it"Which is why I sometimes get out my pin hole slotting saw and do this"Sometimes with a low saddle, I slot the bridge pin holes, as much as possible, so the string is free from the bridge plate to the saddle without stressing the actual saddle. The slot ends up kinda rounded inside the hole."Very tedious and time consuming. Steve