is sotf better than incarnation for Doc spec, also woundering what class you use symbiosis on , using on a shammy atm just for wolved = flat dmg

Yes, SotF refunds energy per finisher
More energy is more abilities
More abilities is more combo points
More combo points is more finishers
More finishers is more free heals
More free heals activate DoC
So on and so forth

Just as I thought...
Same damage done in 6 mins (16.3mil).
Slightly lower Per second but negligible.
Wrath went from #1 to #4 on my damage done in the HotW test.
Shred swapped to top with melee damage on incarnation.
I need to figure out how raid buffs will effect the two.
I know bloodlust is a massive boost to HotW
Also realized I wasn't hitting HT after finishers for the extra damage but I'm assuming its a small increase

I recall when the patch first hit I was trying incarnation and it was such a huge loss on sustained that it left a really bad taste in my mouth so I stuck with SotF or FoN. I recently compared my dps on a dummy for six minute increments using DoC and HotW builds and they were both fairly close for me. My two issues are that the HotW cooldown kills me and the DoC rotation while great in sims is just ok with human error put in.
What I am going to try tonight before raid time is 6 mins HotW vs 6 mins NV-SotF to see what it yields.
What I'm theorizing is that the shorter cooldown will spread out the burst a little better and will have 15 seconds more up time
Berserk and SotF will be allowing more energy for more abilities and finishers within NV of course
More finishers will activate the free heals that also heal more and deal extra damage during NV (not a lot I'm sure but every little bit helps)

The main reason I am considering this is that I recieved the raid finder polearm and assume that it put my cat damage up enough to compete with my 463 weapon wrath spam.

After the HoTW nerf i switched to SoTF/NV with some pretty impressive results (mind you I only got to test this in a raid on Elegon) that are actually competing with what I was doing with HoTW pre nerf. I am easily bursting to well over 200k dps at the start and at the end of the fight sitting around 150k dps. I know Elegon isn't the greatest of fights to judge its worth on with the damage increase and all but I am pleasantly sursprised at what I was able to accomplish with SoTF and NV. I like this combo because NV shares the same CD with berserk and they macro together quite nicely; I also add Renewal into the macro at the end for a ~30k hit from NV. Weaving HTs in when low on energy and PS is up adds a good 100k damage give or take throughout the duration of NV which I am sure with a little more practice can be increased a bit; while this isn't a whole lot of added damage it does add to the talents dps worth. In fact you can do as much extra damage from weaving heals into your rotation when NV is up to equal or even beat the damage of a FON use. I think SoTF/NV is the best way to go for highest non-theoretical dps. While DOC (as many people have pointed out) may give the highest dps results in a sim, in practical use it doesn't come anywhere near the theoretical maximum and to me at least feels clunky and not a very fun rotation.

While DOC (as many people have pointed out) may give the highest dps results in a sim, in practical use it doesn't come anywhere near the theoretical maximum and to me at least feels clunky and not a very fun rotation.

i agree, i used doc and sotf tonight , granted im not 100% with the rotation yet, but it was not a fun raid night for me , was pulling around the same but also less at times than before. i intend to practice the rotation more and will try out incarnation and nv again.

DoC 25% melee damage buff to the right(brown leafs thingy) and Predatory Swiftness (green leafs) to the left to indicate that I have free heal ready.

Macro healing touch to your focus or targettarget(tanks)
Really easy to setup and to show information.

Felt it helped me so I thought it might help you

Pretty much what i've been doing, weak auras is a must to keep track of PS. (don't waste any of them even if you cant refresh your rip) I'ts a very clunky mechanic...i pulled about 80-85k dps on spritbinder hc and thats about 10-15k less then i was doing with HotW with the added panic of your rotation going to shit with doc. I might give incarnation with NV tonight for a few goes.

The more I play with DoC the more i think the soft hit/exp caps are a must have...its really not worth wasting a DoC buff'd rip because you missed or the boss dodges.

Am i wrong to feel that incarnation is really weak? Seeing as it only lets us use ravage instead of shred. And on 80%+ targets the crit chance is 25% more. But once the target falls below 80% is Incarnation still good then?

Haven't seen a discussion about HotW weapons anywhere, but if anyone has, please point me to it.
Otherwise what do we want on our HotW weapons?
Main thing - as high spell power as possible.
Secondary stats haste and crit?
What are the stat values? Are pvp ilvl 470 staves better then 463 hc dungeon ones? Does the int and SP difference make up for 1 missing secondary stat and the second being crit (rather than haste)? How much higher ilvl an agi wep needs to be to beat an int one?
What about enchants? Jade Spirit? If that's too expensive go with Windsong and hope for haste/crit proc?
When we get our legendary gems and somehow manage to get our hands on the staff from Lei Shi, then we should use an agi gem in it right?

Haven't seen a discussion about HotW weapons anywhere, but if anyone has, please point me to it.
Otherwise what do we want on our HotW weapons?
Main thing - as high spell power as possible.
Secondary stats haste and crit?
What are the stat values? Are pvp ilvl 470 staves better then 463 hc dungeon ones? Does the int and SP difference make up for 1 missing secondary stat and the second being crit (rather than haste)?
What about enchants? Jade Spirit? If that's too expensive go with Windsong and hope for haste/crit proc?
When we get our epic gems and somehow manage to get our hands on the staff from Lei Shi, then we should use an agi gem in it right?

Stats; Spell Power,Haste,Crit and yes if your going to gem it Agility that is because it's slightly better then Intellect.
I'm not 100% sure but the scaling from upgrading a casters weapon is so big so i'd generally say that PvP weapons will be better then Heroic dungeon once because of the increase in Spell Power.
If you really want Jade Spirit i'd say go for it since Wrath dose not count as a melee hit so we wont get Dancing Steel procs off it.

Edit: For those who use DoC and think it's to complex the diffrence on paper now with the nerf is just 3-4% from what i've seen on my simulations and you'd probably lose less since DoC is harder to use perfect/or closer to what the sim is doing then HotW

Haven't seen a discussion about HotW weapons anywhere, but if anyone has, please point me to it.
Otherwise what do we want on our HotW weapons?
Main thing - as high spell power as possible.
Secondary stats haste and crit?
What are the stat values? Are pvp ilvl 470 staves better then 463 hc dungeon ones? Does the int and SP difference make up for 1 missing secondary stat and the second being crit (rather than haste)? How much higher ilvl an agi wep needs to be to beat an int one?
What about enchants? Jade Spirit? If that's too expensive go with Windsong and hope for haste/crit proc?
When we get our legendary gems and somehow manage to get our hands on the staff from Lei Shi, then we should use an agi gem in it right?

Yep.
Yep.
Highest item level probably always wins, unless neither the stats are crit or haste and the lower ilvl one is crit and haste.
If your agi wep is better than your int one you probably shouldn't be using the active at all or you'll be losing a very significant amount of DPS. Even with a comparable weapon it's sketchy.
Windsong, Jade Spirit is ICD based and won't proc for a long time after you swap the new weapon, where Windsong will be able to proc right away.
Yes.

Has anyone been having trouble with FeralByNight? Its been my goto timer mod for the past couple expansions but for some reason doesn't seem to be working anymore. (My cat ability timers don't show up anymore)

Could anyone recommend a suitable alternative in case I can't fix it? I really liked the small, simple bar that came with FBN

Has anyone been having trouble with FeralByNight? Its been my goto timer mod for the past couple expansions but for some reason doesn't seem to be working anymore. (My cat ability timers don't show up anymore)

Could anyone recommend a suitable alternative in case I can't fix it? I really liked the small, simple bar that came with FBN

I use needtoknow for all my toons its fairly easy to set up and can be used to track just about anything.