The original contents of this first post, when this thread was created at first for just Hero Force One, are found below.

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Perhaps this is too grandiose a thread for a fledgling story like Hero Force One, but I figured it gives Britt and me (and Geb, plus anyone else who may at any point be interested) a place to discuss HFO, without having to dig through emails or whatever.

Britt and I have already discussed this, but as a reminder to myself, the 'name' that Azariel gives to Hermes Trismegistus is that of Highemperor, who is separate from his inhibited alter-ego Al Ciao now, and rules a powerful empire beyond the NeSiverse now, ruling from the Stronghold of Powerplayers. Eventually he is going to be returning to the NeSiverse in the pages of HFO.

R.I.T.E. is dedicated to preparing for Highemp's return, to defend against him. The 'visitor' to Mega Jonestown Prime was Highemp, and the 12 God-Monarchs removed themselves and the space city from the timestream to escape to a secure location where they could begin utilizing all their powers to preparing the defense of the NeSiverse for Highemp's return.

So these 12 God-Monarchs are the founders and leaders of R.I.T.E. The Dragonlord Riaken is one of them, or perhaps the son of one of them.

The Cosmic Customs House is benignly run, save for greedy and corrupt customs agents, but a few customs agents, such as "Fruit" (actually a future version of Chronos, aka Apple), are planted by R.I.T.E., and send certain travelers to Mega Jonestown Prime outside the timestream, where their abilities can be marshaled to further R.I.T.E.'s cause.

That's my thinking anyway.

Yes, yes, I know it's insanely high-scaled and 'epic', but that's how I roll. Gloves off in HFO XD

I just figured I'd chime in here with some things about Qhobeg and the Deus Ex Machine.

First off, I find it amusing that the story-wielding amplifying contraption is being called Deus Ex Machine instead of Deus Ex Machina when Machina means machine... >.>

Also, as for that machine, it should be noted that Thand in NeSquared made a very similar contraption that uses book-shaped and sized blocks of "oor" (a somewhat mysterious material that is most 'conductive' for story-wielding effects) to 'spin' normal and white plotholes together into a very dense source to likely pull off a similar sized miracle of sorts. You can read about it here and here. I made it up ultimately to give Thand some sort of 'last hurrah' should he have ever been written out of the story. At this point, I figured it'd be used to secretly keep Thand alive if he were to be 'killed' at the end of NeSquared, for him to go back into seclusion after having made some big momentous impact in NeSquared. Who knows. In any case, while this machine has been described as more mechanical than magical (and shaped like a weiner), I figured it might come into play here. Technically speaking, Thand's invention isn't strictly to summon a Deus Ex Machina of any scale, just a powerful pool of power for storywielding, though the two are arguably very similar. I'd say the difference with this machine is that its use follows more strictly with the definition of a Deus Ex Machina as a sudden/unexpected solution to a otherwise hopeless problem. In this case, they're building a crane/platform big enough to summon their god-power of choice.

I'd also like to note that Evil G summoned a deus ex machina to cheat Death, though in this context, Qhobeg is summoning something much bigger. NeS is already a universe where gods normally roam around and guys like Jim Seven are acting as a deus ex machina for other situations both at one time as the ruler of Hell and of Heaven. Clearly, in the context of something like HFO, those like Ares and Jim could be considered "mere gods" that couldn't solve a situation like this due to being overpowered by some other even powerful force (such as a powerplayer). So whenever Qhobeg does use this contraption, I'd say just keep in mind that he's probably summoning someone, and who that might be and how much they can help should help drive this thread, as opposed to just "Qhobeg tries doing it on his own" - unless the machine is to make him a god, in which case, I'd imagine Qhobeg's new problems would be that, like Jim, he's suddenly getting calls from the multiverse to be a deus ex machina for them too.

On a last note, it seemed that you all had Qhobeg prepping to use the machine in one post, and in a following post, he's fighitng with HFO on the space station. I'm not sure if I misread something there or not, and if not, figured I'd bring up that odd quirk.

R.I.T.E.?

Oops. I totally didn't check this thread before posting. So, obviously, nothing you said, Geb, came into play at all. Sorry!! I only just noticed you posted here at all.

As far as I can make out the two systems seem to have similar function, but I suspect the Deus Ex Machine seems to be, as you say, specifically for Deus Ex Machina, while your book... magic... things seem to be general amplification.

I think it may have been missed but I specifically pointed out that the machine is dangerous and could easily kill Qhobeg. Which it... basically did do. Huzzah! >D It's not like I didn't warn you I was going to do this. :p. Whenever I make something *that* powerful there's almost always going to be a drawback or some negating factor that will off-set the use of such a thing. While Deus Ex Machina have been used before, particularly by story-wielders (as pointed out in the case of Evil G) the machine is more about the scale of the event.

And the whole Machine/Machina... yeah... that was the joke. xD

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So where now? Essentially we may consider this to be the end of the first Story Arc! We've come to a complete circle with the initial dilemma that faced our heroes. Of course there is still the lurking threat of R.I.T.E., their plans and the impending invasion of Highemperor. However I had always intended to leave the cluster where it was, as a means of keeping HFO involved in that. Now it's a little harder to have HFO involved in that unless they, somehow, deep it necessary to intervene. After all, Hermes got them believing R.I.T.E. is... right... hur hur hur. So HFO ought to leave them alone... so there's actually no reason for them to get involved . Unless Highemperor suddenly shows up. If Highemp is going to be more long-game, which is how I'd prefer it, then HFO will probably move on to do other stuff in the meantime but this will lose all focus on R.I.T.E. as that would be quite apart from current events.

So unless you guys have some ideas on how you would like to move forward with HFO, I could introduce a whole new "threat" that I had in mind for the second Story Arc for a while. It really would be apart from R.I.T.E. and Highemp though. . I can imagine aspects of Highemp somehow making it into the story, I guess, but... argh. I dunno how to reconcile R.I.T.E. into it.

No probs about not seeing my previous workshop post, Britt. I was mostly rambling, for context and/or inspiration, and not suggesting something specific needed to be followed. Specifically, I'd argue that Thand's thing probably taps in to some leylines or junk, less 'summon power' and more 'tapping into something natural' or the like. Thand's 'story-wielding' I believe was described as 'artificial' -- something not really defined -- and it's what I generally took to mean "Thand's power comes from his knowledge" as opposed to "gifted/summoning a greater power." So his contraption, by nature, is presumably something relatively specific Thand has in mind (I wrote it in just to give him some 'last hurrah' should his character die/not work out/whatever). In any case, what you wrote out is fine, though I personally probably would have indicated some level of Qhobeg tapping into a higher power and not just an extension of his story-wielding.

As for R.I.T.E. and Highemperor, they seem best a "long term" or "bigger bad" for HFO in general, so I'd think the second story-arc would be something new, where they possibly show up again in some behind the scenes fashion, with HFO possibly getting more involved with that then. You and Al are mostly writing for this, though, so I'd go with whatever works for you two.

So for Chapter Two I don't have all the ideas yet but generally we're going to be tackling the TTT for a while. I've just posted the technodrome, I know who I want to be inside. A new TTT bad guy parody type guy.

The other members of HFO are probably elsewhere in Yemen.

Except Citizen Rex. Because he's now unpowered and his primary job is to be the "face of HFO" I figure this is where we do more of the celebrity stuff and have him somewhere in the USA dealing with the press/backers/advertisements, etc.

So right now I posted Post #77 for HFO. The agents are taking Ffion Heul prisoner for killing the Red Faction member, who was working for the terrorists at the time and did attack Ffion first but she's about to be a victim of politics.

So this is going to create a rift in the team.

Deep and Magick obviously mark the beginning of that rift and probably will have the deepest gulf between them as a result of that post. Deep is ashamed of the situation, he tried to avoid it by any means, but it happened anyway and now he feels he has to succumb to it. The government owns the team after all. He would say Magick is an emotional child that doesn't yet understand how the world must work.

Magick obviously wants Ffion to go free. Ffion, also, obviously wants to go free. She's willing to sit through proceedings for the team that took her in, but now the team is betraying her - how long will she allow Earth laws to dictate her future?

Ben is with Deep, evidently. He's afraid of the repercussions and working for the government is probably one of the few things about the team that makes Ben feel a sense of legitimacy. Being a government operative is something he can understand a lot better than being a NeS Hero, for example. Judge, on the other hand, obviously supports Ffion who helped her. Not only with her powers, but freed her from stone and there's the future promise of helping Judge to try to save Qhobeg.

The trickier ones;

High Imp would side with Judge/Magick/Ffion because he's interested in Magick and has zero sense of allegiance to anyone involved. Flax would join Deep/Ben because he's a government man himself (like Kirk, following the rules of starfleet, even if he can bend them). Seraphim is the most swayable but ultimately she'd be likely to join Deep. Of course Judge is her best friend on the other side but otherwise she owes loyalty to Deep. She's generally also one that thinks 'for the good of the team' rather than herself and usually seems to follow orders given. This is probably in the nature, as an angel, used to following orders without question until, obviously, she did rebel against God. But not from the team. Rex is obviously a government man.

So there'd be a divide;

Deep | Seraphim | Citizen Rex | Benjamin Mahir | Flax Hyperon

Judge | Ffion Heul | Magick Snowflakes | High Imp

I'm not saying this would even come to blows or anything. But there's a rift emotionally, at least. I am thinking that the ultimate conclusion to this would be that some members would become the new Hero Force Two.

I was thinking these numbers could join up with the DVD region numbers. Just a thought.

Or it could be more East and West, sort of like the Avengers were East Coast and West Coast.

Power Chart of Grand High Muckity-Mucks

​Sorry, I'm too much of a comic book nerd to resist! These rankings are only by
tier; the order of names within each tier is random, although of course
there will be varying power levels within each tier.

This isn't necessarily a hard and fast power chart, just my general
thoughts. It's also not necessarily ranked by "who would win", but a
ranking of 'brute force' power.

//12 God-Monarchs of Mega Jonestown Prime
//Pantheon of the High Throne (council of 6 top powerplayers beneath Highemp)
//Quantum Pantheon
Judge's Potential Unlocked
//Old Ones
//Four Horsemen of the Omegapocalypse (with six seals, as in the Omega Reich)
ultranexus (in terms of being at the center of the cosmic fractal)
//Jagisk Ttocks

3. OMNIPOTENT TIER

//baron-deities of Mega Jonestown Prime
The Big O
Eternius the Omnarrator (in theory)
Cosmic Destructors
//Galen, Shepherd of Life and Death (before he was Memnoch)
Engines of Discharding
Deus Ex Machines (in narrative-threaded locales)
Phractal
Ma'at (only in regards to her sphere on Earth)

4. VERY UBER TIER

titans
Memnoch
//Hedrons of Highemperor (individually)

5. MEGA COSMIC TIER

Three Fates
Aeon
Runekeeper (role and power now held by Hermes Trismegistus)
Narrative deities (only in places where there are stories)
//Pesu/Death
Aire/Death
EeP (as of NeShattered page 3)
ultranexus (in terms of raw energy)

6. GODS & SUPER MAGES

Hermes Trismegistus
Fladnag the White
//Namuras the White
//Magistarr
//Cool Matty (when at his full potential)
Ordimarian God
Helebon (at full strength)
Earth God
Earth Devil
Chronos
//Indran gods
Main Character (only through storywielding, only at his/her most powerful, and only when necessary)
Ares
Indigo Shade
Thoth
djinni (created by Kavili and Kronos)
Netherwyrms
Dragonlord Riaken
Darkside/Darkside3000
Oberon
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (with no seals)
//The First and Alpha Heinyrians/Henries

I was interested because I did a similar "tunnel" thing with the old TLTE clone facility in Siberia (where a 'paradox' had been in place), trying to match it up to a landmass I could have Thand's plothole contraption on back in the day, and to do so narrowed it down to someplace near Lake ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Baikal ) and the southern-most Andes mountains in Chili, respectively

I was interested because I did a similar "tunnel" thing with the old TLTE clone facility in Siberia (where a 'paradox' had been in place), trying to match it up to a landmass I could have Thand's plothole contraption on back in the day, and to do so narrowed it down to someplace near Lake ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Baikal ) and the southern-most Andes mountains in Chili, respectively

Okay, so having clicked all those links and done some wiki walking, here are some thoughts I have for these ancient civilizations.

As per Scott's idea, they were all contemporaneous with Atlantis. However, based on some Theosophist (and other mythology), I should think the other ancient civs are OLDER than Atlantis (which is relatively young, having been founded 1 million B.C.). I also think they should all have ended around the same time Atlantis did. Possibly the gigantic plothole and rupture of the ultranexus destabilized the other ancient advanced civs too.

There are four other ancient civs identified in mythology and fiction: Lemuria, Mu, Hyperborea, and Kumari Kandam. I'll tackle them one at a time.

I. Kumari Kandum

Tamil writers attempt to equate this land with Lemuria. They also say that a certain "King Paratan" divided his kingdom into nine parts, among his 8 sons and 1 daughter, and Kumari Kandam was the daughter's queendom. Therefore, my interpretation for NeS is that Kumari Kandam is a kingdom and/or province on Lemuria, that may or may not be part of the rest of the Lemurian empire.

Given that this is a queendom, Tamil assertions of Kumari Kandam being a matriarchy make sense to me for our usage. It was divided into 49 territories, so was clearly a pretty vast queendom, on a vaster continent. It was famous for its Seven Pagodas. It was also famous for its thousand-stringed lute(s).

There were three prominent literary academies called sangams. One in Tenmaturai city, presided over by gods like Shiva, one in Kapatapuram city, and one in Uttura Madurai city.

As would make sense with these prominent literary academies, Kumari Kandam was written by the Tamil poets as a utopia of learning, education, travel, and commerce. Its height of flourishing was at 50k B.C.

There is also a mythical emperor named Sengon over Kumari Kandam who was strong and just, but also maintained a fleet of battleship and conquered many other lands. Since Kumari Kandam is supposed to be a matriarchy or queendom, perhaps Sengon can be a Lemurian emperor, given my interpretation of Kumari Kandam as merely a single part of the Lemurian continent.

The Tamils said that Kumari Kandam was submerged at the end of the last ice age, about 10k B.C., which in fact coincides with the ending of Atlantis, in both Plato's and NeS canon.

So since the Kerguelen Plateua is near where Lemuria and Kumari Kandam were said to be, and that underwater subcontinent is on the opposite side of the earth from the Toiletium in Seattle, perhaps we could say that the ruins of the Kumari Kandam city/queendom are there.

II. Lemuria

Lemurians are the proto-humans, and the ancestors of the Atlanteans. They were also said to be a black race, and clearly not all of the Atlantean founders were black, so perhaps not all of the founders are from Lemuria as the Theosophist mythology claims. Or perhaps they lived in Lemuria as part of its empire, but weren't natives.

The Lemurian natives are also described as 7 feet tall, egg-laying and mentally undeveloped by spiritually pure. Since they're also described as coexisting with dinosaurs, and in NeS Adam Terraleph was created in the late Cretaceous period, we could say that the Lemurians are one offshoot of his progeny by Eve. Perhaps they are Neanderthals.

That beginning of the Lemurians would be approximately 65 million B.C. so that's a lot of time for evolution and development until 1 million B.C. when Atlantis is founded in NeS.

Lemuria is said to be in the Pacific ocean, so perhaps the NeSian 12 founders had some particular reason for wanting to get as far away as possible from that empire, hence going to the Atlantic ocean to found Atlantis.

Also, there are supposedly modern-day Lemurian descendants who live in a complex of tunnels beneath Mount Shasta, in California, who wear white robes. This could be an interesting hook in NeS and related works.

III. Hyperborea

These are supposed to be older than the Lemurians, but not actually humans at all, instead being a race of ancient aliens who settled on Earth. They chose the arctic because it is cold like their homeworld. (All according to Theosophist myth.)

This can tie in very neatly to the NeSian timeline. I have no idea for when to establish their settling on earth though, save that it was before Adam Terraleph and the Lemurians, and hence well before 65 Million B.C.

The Hyperborean aliens are even more giant than the Lemurians, being 14 feet tall. They are called Boreades or Kimpurshans. They have golden-yellow colored skin, and can live for up to a thousand years. (Giant space snow elves, maybe?)

It is also said the Boreades are the progeny of three brother-priests, who themselves were the sons of the North Wind and snow-nymph named Khione (or Chione). Perhaps we could interpret this as a union between the aliens and gods/demigods, to form the unique Kimpurshan race.

Their continent/city/civ is in the Arctic Circle, at or near the North Pole, where the sun shines all year long, and only sets and rises once the whole year. Golden-antlered reindeer abound. Although their domain is called Hyperborea, according to Theosophist myth, its 'esoteric' name is Plaksha, which in our NeSian interpretation I think could be Hyperborea's capital city.

The Boreades supposedly had a blessed utopia of perfect happiness, and certainly had a reputation for a love of feasting and gold. There is no indication in myth that they were lovers of learning and literature, as the later Lemurians of Kumari Kandam were, but the Boreades were very generous, sending "gifts of straw" (and probably other things, in our NeSian interpretation) to faraway human civs.

They had a theocratic monarchy, so that would be a line of priest-kings, I'd imagine, and supposedly gods wintered among them. Their most famous priest-king was Abaris, a legendary wandering healer and seer, who visited the human civs for benefactor purposes.

The wonder of their civilization was a "spherical temple with votive offerings", which some Theosophists have suggested could mean a henge of megaliths similar to Stonehenge. Alternatively, in our NeSian interpretation, we could just make it a floaty sphere shaped building with a bunch of candles/lights/bulbs.

The Boreades apparently knew a lot of magic (though without the ultranexus that Atlantis had, they wouldn't be as magically powerful), for legend states that the Tuatha de Danann learned "druidry and magic" before returning to Ireland sailing on dark clouds.

I recognize the Tuatha de Denann as a Celtic name. Are they faeries or something? I can't recall. At any rate, perhaps we could interpret this as Albion faeries learning from the Boreades, or as the fledgling druids of Doughnutdelf learning from them.

On the other hand, Albion didn't make contact with Earth, nor was Doughnutdelf founded, until about 10k B.C., when Atlantis was destroyed. If we go by the rule of thumb that all the ancient civs were destroyed simultaneously, Hyperborea wouldn't have been able to teach anyone anything.

Sometimes but not always identified with Lemuria, I would like to keep it distinct from Lemuria as well in NeSian interpretation. It was also in the Pacific, though. A (nonhuman?) race called the Naacal lived here, who were "white" and "advanced". They were big on megaliths and symbology of the sun and birds. At one they were ruled by the god Ra. It flourished between 48k BC and 10k BC, before being destroyed in "precisely 9564 B.C.", which is close enough to the "circa 10k B.C." dates I've been using for the last generation of Atlantis.

The Muirans had many cities and colonies on other continents. When they were destroyed, the last queen Moo (groan) fled to Egypt and founded that civilization.

V. Atlantis

If you thought you were finally at the end of this wall of text, too bad! There's a lot of intriguing food for thought for Atlantis in Theosophist myth.

Atlantis' capital city is referred to as the "City of the Golden Gate", so I can give NeS Atlantis a giant golden gate Maybe it's a portal.

Its Golden Age was 1 mil B.C. to 900k B.C. Since NeS Atlantis was found circa 1 mil B.C. this makes tons of sense. The early days are looked at with nostalgia, the glory days of their kingdom.

I can interpret this was the first 100k years of Atlantis's existence saw it ruled by a council of the descendants of the 12 founders, before being replaced by the first dynasty of kings (that were NOT descended from the 12 founders).

In 850k B.C., the Toltec "subrace" was in charge of Atlantis, and was taught black magic by the dragon Thevetat. I can interpret this in NeS as the first dynasty of kings being the Toltec family dynasty, who became more magically powerful than the rest of Atlantis, thanks to the patronage of this dragon.

It is also said that Atlantis' military had airships that could carry 50 to 100 men, and dropped poison-gas bombs and was equipped with flame-tipped arrows. Since that's a far cry from the idea of "more advanced than modern day" magitech idea I have for NeS Atlantis, this can be the early days, perhaps during the 'Golden Age'. By the time of the 'second Golden Age' (i.e. the Last Generation, circa 10k B.C.), obviously their military magitech has advanced beyond that.

It is also said that Atlantis had a military of 'chimera' soldiers, which had the bodies of men but the heads of beasts such as lions and tigers. This would definitely be very interesting in NeS Atlantis.

The last thing about Theosophist Atlantis is that it used a lot of vril, which is some magical substance described as the "all-permating fluid" that powered a lot of things, including Atlantean airships. I interpret that as an NeS version of vril, a similar magical substance that can be used to power magitech, and the Atlantean continent has rich mine deposits of it, perhaps because of the proximity of the ultranexus.

Oh, and the date of Atlantis's destruction is identical to that of Mu's, which correlates with my idea of all the ancient advanced civs ending together.

Although I've already written two specific Atlantean survivors (two apprentices of Magistarr) founding two places (Doughnutdelf and Ubar), the Theosophists also said there were two other places that some survivors founded: "the City of the Sun" in a then-lush Sahara (near where Queen Moo would be founding Egypt), and the "City of the Bridge" which is on a "white island" (in an inland sea that is now the Gobi Desert) at or near Shambhala. Which leads me to...

VI. Shambhala

When it's not being described as an esoteric otherworldly place, some writers place it underneath the earth. This would be great as part of the 'hollow earth' subterranean realm that the modern-day underground Ubar (with its blind vampires and lizardmen) is part of. Agartha (which Scott linked) could be considered another city in the hollow earth, or the name of the realm itself.

Shambhala itself is inhabited by demons called asuras. Perhaps that is modern-day underground Shambhala, rather than at its founding circa 10k B.C. by Atlantean survivors.

Epic-y Epicness, or Thoughts Thereupon

I would appreciate your thoughts and opinions on my musings and ideas here, please, Scott and Britt, even if your response is, "OMG these ideas are bloody awful!"

These are my musings related to: Highemperor, Mega Jonestown Prime, the God-Killer Machine, and the Beast in Memnoch's Abyss.

Obviously, Highemp and the God-Monarchs of Mega Jonestown Prime are heading towards a showdown. The space city will return and challenge him or some such. I envision them empowering High Imp as their champion (pacts and such), since he has always been Highemp's nemesis.

It would be interesting to me to have the other top dogs involved in this as well, namely the God-Killer Machine and the Beast in the Abyss.

Anti-Power

What is the source of the God-Killer Machine's anti-power? I made a couple of posts suggesting that it was given to Ameryl from Morthrandur, and that Morthrandur acquired it somehow from Desmond's god-killing weapon (which was commandeered by Jim Seven in NeS1888).

Desmond himself took the anti-power out of Atlantis's vaults circa 10,000 B.C., and used it to rupture the ultranexus. How it got into Atlantis, or where it came from before then, is unknown.

My suggestion is that perhaps it can come from the terrible Beast in the Abyss.

The Beast in the Abyss

Which brings me to what this prisoner/beast is. I've had a few different ideas, mostly inspired by another story I've written/writing.

That first idea is that perhaps it's TWO prisoners in there. One is the actual prisoner - the other is the guardian. The posts with Memnoch descending to the Abyss suggest that despair is thick in it, and also he is able to harness its power to Twice-Forget things.

So the guardian could be some construct or creature - or a multitude of them even - who attempted to destroy its prisoner in some unthinkably ancient time before all the universes, but failed - so instead, it destroyed the first universe around it, Twice-Forgetting it so that it never existed, thus creating a shell of less-than-nothing to entrap the prisoner.

The prisoner itself would be even more terrible somehow, particularly when it escapes. In my other story, this prisoner is the Old Dragon, the cosmic avatar of all despair, suffering, destruction, death, and evil. Whether this prisoner should be similar or not, depends on your feedback.

On the other hand, we could just go with the simpler notion that it's a single beast/prisoner in the Abyss, and no guardian, and this prisoner/beast has the power of Twice-Forgetting annulment, and anti-power - and a spark of that anti-power was taken from it when it was imprisoned, and eventually passed on down to the God-Killer Machine through many universes, ages, and hands.

Epic Throwdown

I had been thinking about a plot in which Highemp and the God-Monarchs are forced to ally to defeat the Beast when it escapes. What if the God-Killer Machine (and the rest of the Imperium) joined this reluctant alliance?

Furthermore, what if the only way to defeat the Beast ends up being something similar to the Great Time War's time-lock from Doctor Who? Obviously, Moffat retconned that so that it wasn't a time-lock, but that Gallifrey escaped to another universe rather than being destroyed.

In my idea though, this would be a true time-lock, or something similar to it. More like an omni-dimensional lock or something, given how easily these ubers can slip through time. But something that defeats/destroys/entraps the Beast once and for all, but at the same entraps Mega Jonestown Prime (or at least the God-Monarchs), big chunks of the High Empire (at least Urbs Dei), and the God-Killer Machine (though not the Imperium at large, unless Britt actually wants to do that).

So Highemp would be a wanderer once more, without an empire.

Mind, I'm not actually sure I WANT to use this 'time-lock' idea, as I do like Highemp having his empire. But it's such an epic idea, I'm tempted.

so I'll go through the post and give some specific feedback on stuff you suggest/ask, then give overall feedback/questions of my own

"I envision them empowering High Imp as their champion (pacts and such), since he has always been Highemp's nemesis."
While I could potentially see them doing this, I rather prefer the showdown between the two of them remain largely the 12 vs Highemp (and maybe his 6 powerplayer cabal types). High Imp I feel would be better as the God-Monarch's tool and/or a wild card of some sort, not specifically their avatar to equal to duel Highemp. that, and I suspect High Imp might have more ties to however HFO may be involved in said showdown

"What is the source of the God-Killer Machine's anti-power? .... My suggestion is that perhaps it can come from the terrible Beast in the Abyss."
Seems sensible, though I'd be curious what anti-power's effects on anti-power would be (the GKM vs the Beast). Would the Beast out-anti-power the GKM because it has more "anti-power"? or is it like taking something to the power of 0, where it's the same 'anti-power' regardless` of how 'much' of it you have? I'd personally think something along the latter -- the 'spy fight' so to speak. it's admittedly hard for me to imagine how that'd play out

"That first idea is that perhaps it's TWO prisoners in there" while not a bad idea, I generally prefer the idea that it's just the one prisoner

"In my other story, this prisoner is the Old Dragon, the cosmic avatar of all despair, suffering, destruction, death, and evil. Whether this prisoner should be similar or not, depends on your feedback." I really liked the idea of the Old Dragon in your other story, and while a similar concept could be done here, I'd actually suggest you keep the Old Dragon as you defined it in your other story and we can work up something else here - ideally some sort of character that could tie to the characters in the playing field (something I'll bring up in general thoughts later)

"and this prisoner/beast has the power of Twice-Forgetting annulment, and anti-power" as a note, I'd suggest that the "Twice-Forgotten' aspect be a sub-power of the more general 'anti-power' because this prisoner is meant to be a super-threat, and McLongname was 'merely' a Twice-Forgotten type, who was beaten by NeS heroes

"I had been thinking about a plot in which Highemp and the God-Monarchs are forced to ally to defeat the Beast when it escapes. What if the God-Killer Machine (and the rest of the Imperium) joined this reluctant alliance?"
I personally think this is a pretty good idea, and I'd highly suggest playing out the God-Monarchs vs Highemp part as much as we can first -- the more the two of them are beaten down, the more of a threat the prisoner becomes and the more reason they'd ally, even reluctantly, for such

"Furthermore, what if the only way to defeat the Beast ends up being something similar to the Great Time War's time-lock from Doctor Who?"
I think this largely depends on who gets locked up. For Doctor Who, it's a big deal because The Doctor is cut off from his people. For Highemperor, for instance, even if his whole empire was locked up, I have a difficult time imagining he wouldn't just be able to start building back up, either abandoning the old altogether and/or being able to -unlock' once he built it up enough. I think some larger questions need to be asked though, which I'll do now

1) Would you consider this event the 'culmination' of the Pan thread? I presume not, since Pan was ultimately created for whims of thoughts related to the mythos of NeS (gods, world-building, etc.). Either way, you may wish to consider how this builds on (or conclusively speaks to) such mythos -- what does these confrontations shed light on the NeSiverse? Or at the very least, what's it tell us about Highemperor and/or the major players, such as the God-Monarchs and the prisoner?

2) I mentioned before about the prisoner as a character being tied somehow more to Highemperor/the cast, and I think developing a character that does this will help figure out a lot of the rest. Highemp is all about questing for power -- perhaps the prisoner equally saught anti-power? the ultimate nihilist, maybe. Or maybe the prisoner's anti-power was largely an effect of some victim of circumstance in the previous battle between Highemp and the G-M's. Maybe in contrast to Highemp's desire for glory/attention, the prisoner (though things like Twice-Forgotten abilities) attacks that very thing that gives Highemp's goal meaning. It actually makes me think of what I had in mind for the NeS novel's conclusion of when Xue (the powerplayer) holds back The Answer (Tragedy)

3) I thought I had something else but I can't think of it right now.

why do you prefer this? [12-on-1 vs 1-on-1]
I just like that dynamic in this context more than a 1-on-1 duel. it's more interesting to me, more complex.

Al Ciao: also, your thoughts on the prisoner in 2) are highly intriguing! of course, without the two-prisoner idea (i.e. one of them is a guardian with twice-forgetting power), it begs the question: how was the prisoner originally defeated?
/shrug/ maybe knowing more about the prisoner will help that out. having a guardian means another character to weave some sort of significance character-wise with IMO. something that shouldn't be done unless the need arises character-wise

Al Ciao: i hadn't considered HFO being involved. Interestin'. Any thoughts on how they would be involved?
haven't a clue. I just know that HFO's all about protecting the Earth, and if they know about this showdown that threatens all of existence (which seems likely if High Imp's with them), I'd imagine they'd try something. granted, they'd be in this context what NeS Heroes are to things like the EeP if not worse

Al Ciao: and also, you raise good points about Highemp being able to conquer more stuff (think)
I mean, there are ways around him surviving to be the wanderer-type and not be able to conquer, but they would generally amount to him likely becoming an Al Ciao type -- it really depends on what motivates Highemp, and how you want him to succeed or fail, as with any other character. I could easily see it where the Prisoner wounds Highemp in such a fashion so that he's not forgotten, but nor is he remembered or something, and/or he's 'scarred' by the anti-power so that his own powerplaying is somehow permanently crippled. of course, the real kicker is if the prisoner has some sort of character relevance to Highemp such that by the end, Highemp's /mentally/ scarred, and that his character is somehow altered. in theory, he's already gone through this once with NeShattered, which is why I generally write Highemp as feeling hollow, so to me, the Prisoner would somehow challenge how Highemp has 'lived' since then... it really depends again on the stuff I mentioned before IMO at least, obviously this could just be a "everyone kicks each other's butt" and then it really doesn't matter what you do so long as it's cool

[in reponse to 'I just want it to be cool']
well then strictly speaking of that, the idea of fighting the 'anti-power' is always cool to me (I like when characters fight shadows, voids, nothings, etc.) because it generally can't be overcome so straight-forward. there's some lateral thinking that's required, whether it's learning something new about yourself or getting help from someone 'reading your story' or whatnot

Al Ciao: i don't want the prisoner's shtick to be purely anti-power though, cuz then that's just a ripoff and upstage of the GKM. hmmmm random thought....the prisoner coudl be some mysterious daughter of Highemp and Imeryn :O not sure how that would work, just a germ of a notion. but, y'know, they're the two ultimate powerplayers, and the leaders of each side so it'd be a character connection
[to above]
sure, I'd think figuring something that defines the prisoner to have aspects of anti-power and Twice-Forgotten would be ideal. I was just using anti-power as the fallback descriptor. [as for Imyren] well that'd certainly give Imeryn some new character insight, lol. I do think that'd be better than just a random stranger with no ties, unless that somehow speaks to Highemp's character, which I'd be hard-pressed to think of

I'm on my laptop so it's too much of a bugger to quote you guys, so hopefully you'll know what I'm talking about with each point I make. I'm also not making comments in the order you may have discussed.

First, I'd say the logical process here is not that the Beast is anti-power at all. Your Beast *is* powerful, so being powerful and anti-powerful is an oxymoron and renders it an unattractive idea. The much better idea, and more logical one, is that (if you go with a prisoner and a warden in the Pit and not just prisoner) is that the Warden is entirely anti-power. This would serve the purpose of explaining how the Beast is even kept in check.

So the God-Killer uses just an atom, I think I said, of anti-power. This Warden is more than that, and that's why it has been able to rein in this monster for all this time. Simples

I don't find dragons all that interesting because they're done to death. Personally I'd bee more interested in a unique creature/being. But also, didn't you write in that Typhon was the first dragon? Or Echidna? One of them. So is this Old Dragon actually not as old as one of the twelve God-Monarchs? I suppose it's entirely plausible that it became more powerful than Typhon, somehow, but I know you well enough that you'll want your Old Dragon to be the eldest and most uberest so you might want to check on what you've written on these other dragons in the past. Damn certain Echidna was the first.

Involvement of the God-Killer and The Imperium.

I'm not entirely against it, and since it's all now in 'public domain' I wouldn't restrict you at all. Buuuuuuut, in all honesty you know I'm not a fan of these epicy epics. The Imperium is certainly capable of being put into those ranks, but in all honesty I mostly brought it in so I can use up random ideas. Ie the God-Killer. It really was just an idea I thought was cool and never meant to ever be used again. For the most part I'd prefer to keep The Imperium at a distance from the main goings-on, lest it lose its meaning to me and I can't find a place to write for it. So generally, I'm reluctant.

Having said that, you mentioned a super mega team up which suddenly sounded very exciting and changed my mood entirely :/. I guess there's something about a good, old-fashioned 'team up' that gets the blood pumping! Everyone has to get put aside their difference and work together does sound pretty awesome. I think the best thing to do, if you use Imperium, is to restrict to God-Killer only unless I really come up with some other kind of ultra-interesting idea. For me Imperium is mostly a nest I can dump ideas into, rather than some integral part of our story. Plus I'd be worried about getting into too much High Empire versus The Imperium waters - that'll just end with Highemperor using some universe destroying fart and Imperium using anti-farts machine (a butt-plug perhaps) and thereby killing everyone and everything.

So while I say the Warden should be the origin of the anti-matter, you still have the question of "The Shard" to answer. Why was he twice-forgotten by the Beast? If The Shard was part of a species who are naturally made of anti-matter, perhaps, the Warden is of the same species as The Shard?

So... the Beast *is* a time-lock? Interesting. It's unleashed and then... how would they get out of the time-lock? I think in Doctor Who the time-lock was like a loop of a second over and over again. If the lock in this is longer, like it loops after an hour, it could lead to a story arc like Edge of Tomorrow or whatever.

I don't know if it would be the culmination of the entire thread. If it was, then I'd need to make a new thread for all the random ideas for stuff I've been writing in Pan >.>. Actually that'd probably be more accurate anyway since most of my Pan stuff recently has nothing to do with these 'muckity-mucks' as Al calls them. xD

It could merely be the culmination of one story arc for Pan.

The fate of Highemperor;

Highemperor is in a state where I, as you know, don't find him very interesting. He has everything, can do everything, there's nothing of interest. So long as that's the case, only you'll probably ever write anything for him, Al. xD. I've done my best, here and there, but really so long as you are happy writing about him doing his emperor thing then there's only you that has to worry about where his story will take him. I'll read it, obviously, but that's about it.

However Highemperor as Al Ciao is even worse. Whhhhhhhhhhhy? What would be the point in having *two* Al Ciao's? We already have Al Ciao! Just kill Highemperor and keep our one Al Ciao. Having more than one Al Ciao would be entirely senseless.

As Geb then points out wandering Highemperor would probably be almost as meaningless since he's more than capable of just starting over. So the whole event would be a kind of 'back from the dead routine', only for his 'empire'. Especially when he starts to bring all his lost friends and wives back from the dead. Again.

The only scenario, off the top of my head, I can think of where Highemp drops his empire would be if he actually listens to Zhuge and follows his advice and goes off to be a hermit that refuses to use his powers except in defence or whatever. Like some kind of zen kung-fu monk that lives in a tiny village and protects it from thugs, or something. That might work. Otherwise, may as well just leave him where he is so long as that's what you're happiest writing. If it were me, you know I'd kill him. But I kill everyone eventually. >D *Britt the Butcher

Sooooooo... yeah.

Anti-power = The Warden

Super Mega Team-Up = Cool idea (including HFO since they were there in the beginning and it'd be a good way to round out their position in the story).

The Imperium involvement = best kept to a minimum.

Time-Lock Beast = Kind of interesting, but not sure how it'd work.

Old Dragon = Old Dragon time-lock? Weird. Otherwise, dragon. Meh. Up to you.

Geb's Thoughts on Pan-Cosmic Command (from Neith Lieren Pan Post)

(Copied and pasted from Skype)

I figure there's at least /one/ multi-verse order out there apart from your High Empires and your Imperiums. I presume the Pan-Cosmic Command is less about an empire answerable to a king and more just 'we've appointed ourselves to keep some semblance of order in the multiverse" or something, maybe ordained by other multiversal governments. or maybe they really are just another empire. the weapons may or may not have been ordered in by the Command too -- I wanted to leave doubt as to whether that was the case or not, sort of like how Tony Stark sees his own weapons used by terrorists sort of thing. again though, maybe it was the Command. Neith to them is sort of their Jason Bourne (in other words, the Command would have a hard time taking her down)

TyphonTyphon has two large wings upon his back. He has a tremendous, bloated frame from feeding on the cosmic energies of the NeSiverse and is the size of a mountain. He has scales of red, gold and black but they are scarred from ancient battle wounds against Netherwyrms in his early life. Despite the scars his scales are considered attractive by she-drakes [possibly condense himself by 3 orders of magnatude to be approx the size of a blue whale/'normal' dragon?]

The Ascension
scarred even in impermeable form, could form into child-sized humanoid(s)

Yannah
radiant chrome feminine body with toaster head and butterknife stuck in it (8'6")

The Shard
humanoid [12'6"?] with pure white skin. The lower half of its torso vanishes away, from opacity to translucence to transparence. It is clad in a ragged black cloak and hood. Its face is blank, unadorned by eyes or nose or mouth, and there is no hair atop its head. Its right hand has elongated fingers and is wrinkled and mottled as that of an old man's. Its left hand is that of a toddler's, and is missing its pinky.
Black script from an unknown and untranslatable language covers the creature's white flesh, and more black script arcs from nonexistence in the air around it to attach to its skin before vanishing, as though it is absorbing words from its surroundings. When it speaks, its voice is incomprehensible, yet its commands are enforced with a geas so that its whims are carried out regardless of ignorance.

Zhuge
a short [under 5'?] anthropomorphic bird-creature. He has white feathers for his head, while the feathers of the rest of his body are tan coloured. His beak is yellow and his eyes steel. Though his arms have feathers, they aren't wings and they end with hands just like any mammal. He wears a simple, though very clean, brown robe over his body. It is sans sleeves and he wears no shoes, preferring naked talons. Hanging around his neck is a beaded necklace with huge, wooden orbs.

Joseph Dave Shmoe
Human in his late 20s, average looking, 5'8"ish? same as Imeryn?

Vedas Khaan
over ten feet tall, his skin is midnight purple. He's very buff and wears an open, black jacket to show that fact. His head is bald... [with] the top of his head bursts into flames of red and yellow, whipping out from his scalp like a mane of red, fiery hair. His eyes are just two orbs of pooling blood

Chimaat
look to be the daughter of Imeryn and Highemperor [5'? -- 4' (see Powerplayer notes below for more)]

Since I don't want to keep a notepad file open for weeks on end, here's what I had down as ideas for the rest of the 'tournament'. I've put them in spoiler tags in case you don't want to see them (don't think the spacing will help you know who is who - I added spacing to match whichever of the contestants had the larger name if they didn't match):

REMAINING FIRST BRACKET
Neith vs Zhuge (win: NEITH)
I figure the physical "fight" would be Neith attempting to "hunt down" Zhuge as he continually hides/dodges/etc., while the actual match they're interested in having with each other is a mental one, each sizing the other's intentions up. These two I imagine are the only ones who might have bothered doing the "research" on Highemperor, knowing his past as part of the story known as NeS and his narrative loss in NeShattered. I envision the end of the match with Neith pushing Zhuge's buttons on comparing his 'tragic' side to Highemperor's, and while the physical fight might look like a draw or even victory for Zhuge (she brings him out of hiding, with a knife at his throat, and Zhuge having performed all but the last of a Kill Bill-style death punch), Zhuge will have considered it a defeat on his part for how she got under his skin. Partly due to that, as well as due to a) not wanting to fight the others and b) interest in how far Neith can go, Zhuge would yield at this point.

Din vs The Shard (win: DIN)
No particular ideas for this fight, only that I think Din should win (if only for the rhyme if nothing else) and that some of The Shard's Batman-style abilities/powers are described but still leaving enough of a mystery about him. Maybe a Batman vs Joker style fight?

Vedas vs Minos (win: VEDAS)
I figure this might be something akin to Minos wailing on Vedas, to show some of his signature abilities and to make Minos possibly look like Vedas really IS a warm-up for him, but to then show Vedas essentially toying with him, threaten to cut his balls off or something, and Vedas coming close to not stopping after Minos yields. NOTE: Britt actually ended up doing this post, and apart from a shared understanding of Vedas being the winner, did his own, likely better take.

Yannah vs Lo (win: Lo)
Apart from the general desire to have each of the G-Ms show off some 'signature' abilities or whatnot of their own, I don't have much on this except that Lo might perhaps "win" in a dirty fashion, such as having an enchanted artifact that's one of Yannah's toaster sons or something, and the only way to break the artifact's power is to sacrifice the toaster's life or something. Otherwise, I expect the two of them to fight like a wizard's duel with the equivalent of orbs and tomes and such that a robot and pirate respectively might use instead, and if Lo hadn't played dirty, Yannah would have clearly been a victor.

SECOND BRACKET
LO VS NEITH (win: NEITH)
Despite Lo playing dirty again, I imagine as with the Yannah vs Lo fight, it's clear Neith outmatches her, and unlike with the Yannah fight, Lo dirty, cunning ways aren't enough to compensate for Neith's discipline. While Lo vs Yannah might be akin to a wizard's duel, this fight would probably play out more like swashbuckling with the occasional pistol-style shots.

DAVE VS DIN (win: DAVE)
I enjoy trying to find unique ways for Dave to escape death, and in this case, I'd be inspired by the sort of "game end" glitches some tool-assisted speedrunners have used, except in this case, Dave barely stumbles upon such fortune. Din might initially do things like take a swing, then randomly teleport through and behind him (that might make it look like if Dave had reacted like a "competent" fighter, he'd have died or the like), but I imagine the end would have her throw the arena grounds into literal chaos, and Dave falls/runs through the right bits of chaos to not only survive, but 'skip' to and 'end' where he somehow won and Din yielded. If I'm able to think of other means of serendipity that make Dave look like he's masterfully taking on the offensive, I'd include that as well.

VEDAS VS. TYPHON (win: VEDAS)
Similar to the Vedas vs Minos fight, except I'd see Typhon actually putting up more of a fight, and more of Vedas's signature abilities would be shown here. Again, as with before, it'd be hard to hold Vedas back, and the escalation should be made clear that Vedas's bloodlust is dangerously just kept in check (by himself and/or others like Imeryn)

FINAL BRACKET
NEITH VS VEDAS VS DAVE (win: Undetermined but likely would have been VEDAS)
I imagine in this case, the focus would largely be on Neith vs Vedas, with Dave keeping his distance. To the other G-Ms, of course, it'd look like Dave's just waiting to pick off the victor, and even in the Neith vs Vedas fight, Dave might somehow do something to tip the fight between one or the other at various times. Mostly, though, it'd come off as "who is the hunter and who is the prey", though between the two, Vedas would clearly be more the dangerous "beast". While Neith puts up a good fight (though skill over power), Vedas ultimately succeeds in knocking her out/giving her a scar/something pretty bad (though Neith won't actually say to yield unlike Minos and Typhon even when it's clear she'd die/refusing Imeryn to step in), and he's about to kill her when Dave throws a rock at his head or something to draw Vedas's attention to him. The tournament ends short as Vedas is clearly ready to murderlate Dave because of some emergency news ("sighting of a Highemperor attack" perhaps) that, with the additional pressure of having to deal with the rest of the G-Ms and Vedas's ultimate goal to take down Highemperor, Vedas backs off.

Council of Powerplayer notes

From dialogue (as of June):

Entity #1 seems the most focused on Highemp (addressing him as m'lord, being the first not to want to mention his dead daughter to him, noting when Highemp isn't there, giving him status updates herself) as well the one vocalizing any sort of concern about misogyny. May be "X" (unofficially Xue)

Entity #2 is Thorn, who we've established as the most "sensible" and apparently the most brave? at least when it comes to delivering news to Highemp. He seems to also be the one to "lead" (or at least call to order) Highemp's business, possibly the most subservient/loyal to him, may have a personal dislike for the NeSiverse

Entity #3 seems the most "mindful?" or perhaps one-step aheadish? (noting things would never get done if waiting for Highemp, noting Thorn's cleverness in his title, considering options for controlling Coaleashion/other conquests, seeing where at least Thorn is going in his conversations (Coaleashion again, God-Killer Machine)). #3 is the one who talks about the department, but he doesn't seem to imply that he has any particular ownership, only that he'd give them orders (and Aryst says they'd do it themselves later)

Entity #4 seems more cynical/pessimist? he talks about conquests being painfully slow without Highemp, agreeing there's no doubt to Highemp's satisfactory conquests, noting a 'nice narrative' with Highemp's first love, questioning if the GKM was used in their territory, noting the wrong use of inconceivable. less to go on really with #4 entity #4 has gotten himself crucified (apparently as a messianic figure) in one of his narratives (before presumably being reborn) and is good at spotting retcons, mostly

Entity #5 is clearly the mIkey of the TMNT-powerplaying group sex-obsessed, little care for taking things seriously

X (formerly Entity #1)
~5'8" (controller - wizard) -- Disney-princess/wizard
Wears a silver form-fitting robe, white opera gloves, and a face mask. The mask, similar in spirit to one worn by the Phantom of the Opera, bears a thin, black X across it, the mask exposing only her mouth and caucasian-colored cheek, itself adorned with abstracted whisker-like black markings which manage to complete the X motif across her counternance. [also wears heels]
More inspiration: https://forums.massassi.net/vb3/show...=1#post1128454

Knightlord Thorn (formerly Entity #2)
~6'0" (leader - cleric) -- Strider/Aragorn
Wears a largely body-concealing garment, but his outfit - dark - bears more the style of a cloak than a robe, and only his hood sometimes masks his dark eyes, completing the Strider-like look to his facial features. Golden gauntlets cover his hands, and [wears] boots. Presumably, the rest of his appearance under his cloak gives reason to his name as Knightlord. [likely more slender than Highemperor]

Carian Myste (formerly Entity #3)
~6'0"(striker - rogue) - gentlemen thief-trickster/Robin Hood
Donned in a traditional stage magician's suit and tophat, only his swirling iridescent scarf, cane likely with secret blade, pocketwatch with mirror. Van Dyke goatee. May change to other outfits such as Western outlaw (look like Clint Eastwood) with pistols, King of Thieves, Robin Hood, or other similar personalities, with the hat, scarf, and cape likely fitting in somewhere. Smoke and mirrors style.

Chimaat (formerly Entity #4)
~4-4'6"? (none) -- Supergirl/Scarlet Witch?
Looks to be a preteen (8-12 years old) and daughter of Imeryn and Highemperor. Has time and turnip motifs to her powers.

Quincturianos Dthesyrius aka Quincy (formerly Entity #5)
~8'-10' (none) -- beholder/Aristotle feigning as Bacchus type
A massive roundish shape floating in the air. A single large eye and a toothy maw are on one side, and 69 eyestalks wave about from it.

Aryst Omnistellae (formerly Entity #6)
~5'8" (defender - fighter) -- Roman emperor gladiator
Adorns himself in a fashion not unlike a Roman Emperor. His armor, largely black leather and ornately decorated in gold and silver trims, compliments his white toga and cape. He never hides his effeminate face, and his head only bears a laurel wreath that appears to be made of shimmering stars. His sandals step with little noise.
For more inspiration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodus

Geb requested that I post some notes about "epic" qualities I once told him about, based on my thoughts, several years ago.

1. Scale

This is the obvious one. Making things as BIG as possible. Literal size plays a big factor here. Only one country? Why not a world? Only one galaxy? Why not the universe? Only one universe? Why not a multiverse?

Also time - the ancient past, the far future, the end of time, the beginning of time, all times smooshed together at once.

And of course destruction and power exerted on a grand scale. Destroying planets with a single shot, mind controlling everyone in a whole star system, etc, and even bigger!

2. Significance

This basically relates to the REASON behind the story or the conflict. Huge scale conflict for conflict's sake is cool, but having an epic reason is even cooler. In this case, you can have epic significance without epic scale. In the Christian story, Jesus's sacrifice on the cross has epic significance (save the souls of all mankind), but has very small scale: just a small primitive province of the Roman Empire.

One thing to consider here, when it comes to epic threats: what's worse, an enemy who wants to destroy everything, or an enemy who wants to rule everything tyrannically? For me, though, worse than either of these is unhappiness/despair. Dementors were always worse than Voldemort in my book.

3. Scope

This can be said concisely as the details. Instead of just saying, "all the greatest heroes of the world join together", you can specifically cite the heroes involved. Calling the Justice League "a group of the greatest superheroes in the world" isn't as effective if you don't cite "Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman unite!"

This particularly applies if you have some sort of epic finale or climax of a story or setting. For example, NeS Page 50 is all the more epic because we included and wrapped up elements and characters from all throughout the original thread.

4. Tone

Making it SOUND epic, in terms of the flavor. King Kruel isn't as epic as KRUEL THE DOMINATOR, EMPEROR OF ALL EVIL. Using numbers that have traditional significance (such as 4 or 7 or 12) applies as well. Same with making mythological references, such as giving a hero 'twelve labors'.

Thanks, Al! I'm going to jot down some of my own understandings of "epic" which may inspire me for subject matter one might find in Pantheons of the NeSiverse.

Dictionary.com definitions:
1.noting or pertaining to a long poetic composition, usually centered upon a hero, in which a series of great achievements or events is narrated in elevated style:
Homer'sIliad is an epic poem.
2. heroic; majestic; impressively great:
the epic events of the war.
3. of unusually great size or extent:
a crime wave of epic proportions.
4. Slang. spectacular; very impressive; awesome:
Their burgers and fries are epic!

Wikipedia and TV Tropes both seem to echo the idea of a large scope and size in time and space and told in a lengthy manner. Of course, that pertains more to the formal definition of an epic and not just something being "epic" to mean using the rule of cool to the XTREME, but I think there's some overlap.

I asked Al to post the above, and I'm thinking of this, because I have a spark of an idea for a "stupidly vast empire" to call my "own" in the way that Al has his High Empire and Britt has his Imperium. For now, though, I'm still mulling it over to myself.

Notes on the Coordination

Here are the notes I had for the Coordination note already included in my introductory post:

Possible founding members:

Omen (Outis Marit Eime Nahin - nobody) m - Captain of crew in ship broken off in exile from Omega Reich's horror on his family. Hero to the underdogs, downtrodden, oppressed, but ruthless to 'enemies' (least is highest, highest is least). Cunning and full of hate. Similar to Nemo and Odysseus as antihero.

Ananta (infinite, endless) m or f

Kalpana (imagining, fantasy) f

Vidya (knowledge, science, learning) f

Glooscap (man from nothing) m

Cassus (empty, vain) m

Vayu (air, wind) m

Fatsani (be meek) m or f

Manyara (you have been humbled) f

Nyarai (be humble) f

Parvus (small, humble) m

Wiater (wind) f

Ideal "nation" group types:

Explorers

Gamers

Improvisers

Tai-chi types

Agile-ers

Dreamers (sleepers)

Cartoon/Animated

Comedians

Philosophers

Testers

Interneters

Artists/Writers

Names of "nations" to use:

Keyless Country/Key Colonies (nobody has access to power/no power is 'locked away' for only certain people)

Forever Exiled Assembly's Refuge (refugees who no longer have their own home, largely Nameless followers)

Types of governments for "nations" to use:

Thalassocracy (maritime power)

Meritocracy (power through merit)

Demarchy (power through lottery)

Adhocracy (opposite of bureaucracy - power ad hoc)

Ergatocracy (power through working class)

Uniocracy (power through hive mind)

Geniocracy (power through finding the most intellectual/wise/creative to rule without question from their "access to the Idea of Good") / Geniocratic republic (having the wisest be in a pool to elect from to rule with limited, checked power)

Equivalent of USA/British Empire:
Unlimited Realms of Aeternitas (UR, URA, or Aeternitas, the latter Latin for "Forever")
Ruling nation: Aeternitas (US/England)
Those commonly in power are the All-Lords (and antiquated All-Ladies) not unlike Time-Lords with Lord and Lady Limitless (or the Autocrat of Aeternitas and the Ultimate Ruler of the Unlimited Realms - Lim and Les) once monarchs but now (mostly) figureheads. "United Realms" and "Aeternitas" are somewhat split, like England and America, North vs South, etc)
Possible characteristics of LLs: sickly, crybaby, shy, stammering, reluctant, private thoughts, all business, popular, complex, contradictory, larger than life, fight nazis and Indians, 'one of the greats', paralyzed from illness, near-dictator, liberal federalist, military but not blindly so, 'military knows best', controversial, enigmatic, good foreign relation wisdom
West Bunakaron Company (tentative) (East India Company equivalent) - fighting control pre-Omega Reich, company in UR juristiction

USSR equivalent:
Unified Bloc of Egalitarian Races (UBER)
Ruling nation: Rovnya (Russian equivalent, Russian for 'level' or 'equal')
The "State" (mostly Rovnya) is in power, to represent the "races" in an 'equal'/socialist manner. Ruled in the past by "Vohzd" ('leader' aka dictator) Zavtra (Stalin), and a Putin equivalent in the present. Would initially have been in a non-aggression pact with Omega Reich but then turn when invaded.
Possible characteristics of Chugun Zavtra aka Cast Iron Tomorrow: kind and hard-working for loyal working class but ruthless and cold to prolitariat and workers who sympathized with them, would be angry at (true) comparison with Tsar (Ceasar).

Above were major players among the Amalgamated against the Omega Reich. Below are major players among the Axiom Vehemency. Both might have 'smaller' powers involved (For Amalgamted: free France & Poland, Commonwealth countries & Brazil later. For Axiom: some subsections of Coordination nations pre-formation)

Jù Teikoku ("Great/Huge Empire" - equivalent of Empire of Japan)
Ruling Nation: Towahon ("Forever Origin" - actual nation)
Ruled by Tennō (Emperor) Zhuge when he had been a powerplayer. His desire for conquest led to destroying all who didn't join him (using loyalists who take on suicidal missions), ultimately leaving him with nobody left. Though having "defeated his enemies" and be the last of the Axiom Vehemency standing, it was a pyrrhic victory, and Zhuge steps down to allow for surrender. Initial rise to power, with Shinto-esque (connection with past spirits) worship support "holy war" not unlike Highemperor, but as more resisted with him crushing them, more under his own rule had to sacrifice themselves to support his cause (with some loyalists even questioning and rebelling), "winning" with nobody left to rule.
Other possible characteristics of Zhuge: early life went through military training, also concerned with UBER, fights 'China' largely, eventually picks fight with rest of Amalgamated/UR, uses war methods banned by PCC, reprimands commanders for lying to him about chances of 'successes', seeks diplomacy ("Enlightened Peace") before war but eventually leans more into war, shortest and youngest
Inner Council: Ronin Rose (Knightlord Thorn), "O" ("X"), Kirikage ("Mist-shadow" - Carian Myste), Shikai ("Death-chi" - Chimaat), Go-banme ("Fifth" - Quincy), Jo Sode-no ("Best All-Star" - Aryst Omnistellae)

(equivalent of Italy)
Torincontrano/Torisiincontrano (bulls meet/hit)
Ruling nation: "Casata" ("House" in reference to lineage and to family -- likely to just go by Casa after Reich)
Ruled by Duce (Leader, turn to "Dunce") Bugiardo Stronzo (Liar A-hole), they claim 'true foundings' of the Alpha Reich (only thing that "might" be true) and generally propagate BS to further power. If Zhuge is Ttock's half with physical power but little manipulation, Stronzo is Ttock's half with manipulation power with little relative physical power.
Possible characteristics: shorter and older than Ttocks, also fought in WW1, pushes for nationalism, futurism, ubermensch/plato's "philosopher king" (strong over weak), originally draft dodger and communist but changes ways, not egalitarian, cult of personality (moreso than the rest), fire salamander amphibian look but also thick kingpin esque, appeals to youth/fantasy (dreams) to propagate his rule, initially against Ttocks but joins when spurred by "decaying old imperial powers" and joins ttocks despite ttocks being more dishonest and threatening than UR, fights because they're a young "poor" nation, nation's king allows Stronzo to be dictator when he overthrew because it was better than socialism (UBER) but eventually kicks Stronzo out

Explanations of things I took way too much time thinking up for the Pfaxarxis post:

The dating system:
I wanted to a) invoke a Star Trek like system b) a "real life" dating system and c) also be a bit NeS-wacky. So the system, which is meant to be more a set of coordinates relative to their position in space-time across the multiverses, goes something like this:

"Day" of "Month", "Year", "BCE/ACE"

The "days" are made up of the International Code of Signals, so if one would normally say the 23rd, or the 15th, or the 1st, they'd say "Tangond" or "Novemberth" or "Whiskeyst".

The "months", which would normally be "April" or "September" or whatnot, are instead simply the numbers 1-9 (possibly 0).

The "years" are made up of a set of words between 1-10 syllables in total length, and those words are made up of the signs of the Chinese Zodiac. So instead of "year 10" or "year 1142" you'd have "pig" or "rat-dragon tiger-horse".

The system above doesn't have to obey any "time" rules as the comparisons have made them -- the "days" aren't ordered alphabetically, or the "years" synonymous with numerical passing. Like I said, I made them with the idea that they're more coordinates than anything. With that said, if you want to suggest a passage of time within a single post, you may wish to do what I did and emulate a similar expected "cadence" to give the illusion of time passing.

The PCC history:
I decided to expand more on the PCC history and, to an extent, the Omega Reich history as well. Given that I wanted to continue the idea of the PCC as a sort of Interpol, I took a page from real history and suggested that it had initially been the "Pan-Cosmic Commission" shortly before the majority of it was absorbed by the Omega Reich, so what was left was working with the "Amalgamated" (Allied Forces) against the Reich. I then crafted the tale around that idea, including throwing in the premise that the PCC had a hand in creating (or at least co-discovering) the use of Cosmic Destructors, to parallel the rise of atomic bombs at the end of WWII, as well as the "greater threat" among the Amalgamated, which were parallels with the Soviets. I purposely left that identity blank because that too could be part of the PCCs past now, or we may want to make an existing or future power in that role, should we want.

So what is Pfaxarxis?
In short, I figure he's an undead/mechanical-ish "facsimile" of Arxis, sort of like a Borg, but not quite as over-the-top in the look. Less Frankenstein's monster and more Ash, Bishop or Call from the Alien series. I also indicated that his 'antiversal poisoning' (like radiation poisoning) is now a permanent trait in him. I don't quite see it to mean he's a walking death machine radiating death, but maybe like the aliens from Alien again, his spit and blood are bad news regardless of who/what you are or something. I admittedly didn't think that one super-through, just wanted to give the former Gul Moff a more ulterior reason to want to save him, like he's the PCC's living mini-Cosmic Destructor or something.

I only read the first page, but this thread has a serious lack of hands. Mayaal and Bahc are the "right and left" hands of the NeS and are somehow related to and a bridge between the in-story gods and writer Gods, only being vaguely familiar with their existence in a plot. Their main purpose is to maintain the balance between good and evil so that the story may actually continue.

I don't actually expect you guys to include them, I just had a fugue state and remembered all of this.

I only read the first page, but this thread has a serious lack of hands. Mayaal and Bahc are the "right and left" hands of the NeS and are somehow related to and a bridge between the in-story gods and writer Gods, only being vaguely familiar with their existence in a plot. Their main purpose is to maintain the balance between good and evil so that the story may actually continue.

I don't actually expect you guys to include them, I just had a fugue state and remembered all of this.

Note: I moved Kirby's post from Pan to this thread, so for context, he's talking about the Pantheons of the NeSiverse thread.

Kirby, Bhac and Mayaal have had their moments in NeS2, and the Hand(s) have been a continued role with previous Hands fleshed out in NeS History in both NeS2 and Pan (as well as possibly other EU threads). In NeS2, there's currently a transition of Hands as both Bhac and Mayaal have been killed; in NeS3, they're likely to be filled by Gebohq and Evil G.

With that said, having Geb and Evil G do stuff in Pan in the near future is definitely something to consider. I'm sure at least Al may have more to add.

Sorry I both realized I posted in the wrong place and that there were new hands after I made that post. I understood only a fraction of that thread, I just found it funny to remember a bunch of things.

Some not-entirely organized thoughts on the Nothing faith, the Coordination, and Nahda, all of course is a work-in-progress.

Scale - Nothing is bigger/smaller than the biggest/smallest thing. In layman understanding, it's the opposite of "epic" scale. The Coordination is not known for being the largest/most impressive scale of heights and breadths, but may be known for its "depths" (its "spiritual" or "philosophical" scale)

Significant - "Nothing" is significant; life is without inherent meaning, and that in itself is significant as it allows to define one's own meaning. The Coordination is significant as a power both inclusive (i.e. open to many joining/open to helping many) and exclusive (not expanding by conquest but by very selective/strict petition for joining, remaining detatched/neutral in many inter-power conflicts). See "scale" regarding depths.

Scope (details) - [unknown at this time]

Tone - "Nothing" /sounds/ unepic in tone on the surface, and could sound epic in tone as one might dive into the depths of an abyssal trench. See "depths" for scale.

1.noting or pertaining to a long poetic composition, usually centered upon a hero, in which a series of great achievements or events is narrated in elevated style:
Homer'sIliad is an epic poem.

While unlikely to be poetic, I hope to detail Nahda's origins in a similar fashion.

2. heroic; majestic; impressively great:
the epic events of the war.

Despite the drive for an "epic" origin story, I also fully intend for it to be "unheroic", "unmajestic", and not seem great or impressive. "Nothing" is heroic, majestic, or great, after all; they are qualities of Ttocks. Same for the Coordination.

3. of unusually great size or extent:
a crime wave of epic proportions.

See "scale" above, at least relative to other multiversal powers. They're meant to be the India of the world.

4. Slang. spectacular; very impressive; awesome:
Their burgers and fries are epic!

See #2.

"Cool" and "extreme" would also be moreso both in the Omega Reich territory. "Nothing" and the Coordination would be "uncool" and "moderate" in many ways.

For below, since faith in "Nothing" permeates throughout many people of the Coordination, similar philosophies may be found.

Nahda and many of his race (Devatans) previously believed in the Nameless, and might have a creed like:
"Accept, all, the Nameless is our Supreme, the Nameless is One."

While having Jewish parallels, the Nameless religion as practiced by the Devatans should likely be less monotheistic and more some sort of combination of panentheistic, henotheistic and/or monolatristic (that there are other "gods" that are equally 'supreme' to each other as they are facets of the Nameless/the "One") to be more Vedic/Hindu in nature. The Devatan's system of belief on a concept of the Nameless may, of course, be one of many (I, for instance, took an ignostic perspective on the Nameless concept in my one Pan post with a bunch of bigwigs meeting up about the nature of the Nameless).

The above is relevant as a) Nahda would have grown up with such faith and b) the faith in "Nothing" evolved from it (similar to how Christianity evolved from Judaism and how Buddhism evolved from Vedic beliefs). While El'Psassmet would be known most as the religious center of the Nothing faith, it'd also be considered by some Devatans as still their home of the Nameless faith, so tensions would likely exist.

Nahin ("no"/"not") - possible name for the Nothing faith as a whole
Aparibhaa**** ("undefined") - possible name for Nothing sect that's less orthodox, does not deify Nahda
Abhaajy ("indivisible") - possible name for Nothing sect that's more orthodox, deifies Nahda

The two sects above are meant to have similar-sounding names to parallel the two major Islamic sects and to come off confusingly similar to the layman (but very different for those in one of the sects). The orthodox sect might have a creed such as "There is nothing but Nothing. Nahda is the revealer of the Nameless."

Differences between Namelessism and Nothingism:

Namelessism have faith in the Nameless as a supreme "will" even if that will is from an unknown, anonymous "author"
Nothingism have faith in the Nameless as a supreme "non-self" who, while also unknown/anonymous, did not "author" existence but more "discovered" (in line with Buddhism and with a multiple writers of NeS idea)

Namelessism have hope that there is always something, always fulfillment possible
Nothingism have "hope in nothing" -- that there is always nothing, always emptiness (echoing "finding your own path/meaning")

Nahda might express the "mission" of Nothingism (or the Coordination) as such:
"To the nameless who seek refuge, we offer nothing - no suffering, no want of needs, no binding castes - so that you may find nirvana."

A possible creed of Nothingism as a whole might be:
"I believe in the Nameless, the unknown and undefined, roamer of all that lies above and afar and around us. [indicating writers who craft fiction]

I believe in Nothing, that which is beyond everything. I believe the Nameless came from Nothing, that the Nameless is Nothing and that Nothing is the Nameless. [indicating writers and the "slate" they work with are of the same "realness", that what the writers are doesn't matter]

I believe in Nirvana, the only truth of the Nameless, which was conceived through Nothing, born of Nothing, suffered under Nothing, died by and risen by Nothing, and Nothing will come to judge the living and the dead." [that they believe in enlightenment/escape of their "suffering" (fictional existence), that the writers are defined by not being fictional. Not sure on the rest -- mostly playing with the Christian creed]

Nothingism, like Buddhism, would likely advocate a "middle way" between nihilism and eternalism, hedonism and stoicism respectively.

It'd also advocate a nondualism (that there's no distinction of "heaven" and "earth"), and a similar 4 "truths" (there is suffering from an incapability of satisfaction, there are causes of suffering that result in remaining in an endless loop of suffering, suffering can cease, and that ceasing is within grasp)

Also, a similar "8-fold path" of wisdom, virtue, and meditative intent (right view of actions having consequences, right resolve to give up attachment, right speech in speaking truth/not lying, right conduct in not killing/injuring/stealing/etc., right livelihood in possessing as little as possible, right effort in guarding against sensual thoughts for meditation, right mindfulness in not being absent-minded/unconscious, and right concentration in meditation/prayer).

It would advocate three "marks of existence" - impermanence (change is the only constant/nothing is permanent), non-self (no unchanging, permanent self/you are nothing), and suffering (because the writers are bastards)

To tie into the downplay of the Nameless as an almighty figure, the faithful of Nothing would believe in "no first cause" -- that all things have causes, and that removing "causes" of suffering can end the loop of pain to attain enlightenment (one might realize things causing conflict in their life and remove themselves from it).

Since the followers of Nothingism "believe in Nothing", they may be a rather reason-based people, relying on skeptical thinking. A practice/way of acting to be non-complementary might stem from this.

Their "pillars of faith" may be the following:
-establishing intent (faith/creed/self-purpose)
-prayer/meditation/breath
-to coordinate with others, encouraged to give and refrain from taking in attempt to be closer to Nothing
-to journey towards improvement. Orthodox believers might literally journey to El'Psassmet, while others might simply seek to further follow their "path" to Nothing

Apart from Buddhist parallels, there'd also be a Christian parallel in "turning the other cheek" - part of a general philosophy of nonviolent protest and non-complementary acting that'd also arise in tai-chi-style and improv-style conflict resolution with the underlying perception that since they "believe in Nothing" that "everything else is trivial."

Nahda may have described the Coordination in a more Israel-esque fashion to the Jupiterians due to seeking to be non-complementary to their atheistic views, and that with those who held strong religious beliefs, Nahda may have described the Coordination more with the "freedom of religion" angle. While "Nothingism" permeates the overall culture of the Coordination, the Coordination would be a strong proponent of separation of church and state (at least in its ideal status), which would not conflict with Nothingism as they believe that, while they may be onto a more expedient/clear path to Nothingism, there are infinite other paths too.

New Sima/El'Psassmet may vaguely resemble a yin-yang symbol.

In a future workshop post, I might list out possible conflicts regarding Nothingism and the Coordination (ex. "how can they 'accept all paths' when some paths are clearly against their apparent philosophy of peace like the Omega Reich") for possible story conflict fuel.

4. Prince Mordred = Zweihander, Clarent (rapier-like weapon, used by his father previously and is the Sword in the Stone)

5. Sir Tristram = Fail Not, laser-bow. Curtana, the Sword of Mercy. Has a flat end (no blade tip), currently part of the royal jewels of Britain today. The Black Shield (when he becomes the Knight of the Black Shield).

6. Sir Galahad = Coreuseuse, sword. Shield of Evalach, shield. Also Sword in the Floating Stone? Maybe that is Coreuseuse.

7. Sir Gawain - Galatine, sword, Shield of Judas Maccabee

8. Sir Perceval = Grail Sword, Shield of Joseph of Aramathea

9. Sir Faerie Knight = Morddure, sword. Used by Arthur in The Faerie Queen. Maybe a magical sword of some kind.

Marmiadoise (taken from King Rion ((replace with King Rience)) by Arthur. Given to who?)

Isolde is stopped from completely saving Tristram. He is alive, but changed. Hollow. He becomes the Knight of the Black Shield and fights against the other knights.

Shallot is Galahad's true mother. She disguised herself as Guinevere to sleep with Lancelot.

Lady Clare Bertilak uses a magical ring to sleep with Sir Bors. She is secretly related to King Claudas. Maybe his niece.

Soon introduce Sir Aggravain, who is former knight of King Claudas. He later feels betrayed by Arthur and will join Mordred. He is over seven feet tall and has a tiny friend called Tom Thumb.

Sir Calogrenant is a super polite guy with outstanding manners and etiquette. He is friends with Sir Bors and a mentor to Prince Lionel. Lionel tries to kill Bors but Bors doesn't resist so Calogrenant steps between them and dies/is wounded. He is defeated in battle by The Black Knight.

Sir Sagramore is a hot-tempered knight from Hungary who is prone to fighting. He has epilepsy. He is also an heir to the throne of Constantinople.

Mordred and Aggravain tell Arthur of the supposed affair between Lancelot and Guinevere so Arthur goes to war with Lancelot. While he is gone, Morganna helps Mordred take power from Arthur. Aggravain and Tristram join Mordred.