(07-06-2009 08:51 PM)grafted Wrote: That reminds me of the following.
Rev 2:9 "'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

So how come you are supporting that HRM teachers like Chumney spew forth their slander on the God channel - for they say they are Jews, but are a synagogue of satan?

Two House is a rather complicated doctrine that permeates Hebrew Roots. It seems to be getting more popular. The premise is based on Ezekiel 37:18. I included the passage, because I believe it is important to note that it is obvious this was fulfilled under the New Covenant in Jesus Christ [verses 21-28] - Jesus joined the two houses when He was sacrificed. we know this because Eph 2 speaks of one new man in Christ. Also Paul pointed to the fact that there is no more Jew or gentile in Christ - this is the mystery of the Gospel.

Sheep Wrecked, my friends talk about "Two Sticks". Now, I see that this is the "Two House" theology, also.

Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?

Two House is a rather complicated doctrine that permeates Hebrew Roots. It seems to be getting more popular. The premise is based on Ezekiel 37:18. I included the passage, because I believe it is important to note that it is obvious this was fulfilled under the New Covenant in Jesus Christ [verses 21-28] - Jesus joined the two houses when He was sacrificed. we know this because Eph 2 speaks of one new man in Christ. Also Paul pointed to the fact that there is no more Jew or gentile in Christ - this is the mystery of the Gospel.

Sheep Wrecked, my friends talk about "Two Sticks". Now, I see that this is the "Two House" theology, also.

Yes, "Two Sticks" is Two House - yet one more term that they use. As if the two sticks are so important that the writers of the NT forgot and left them out of it

(07-09-2009 04:03 PM)Emjesown Wrote: I guess no one saw my Q?
I still think theyre is a 2-house principle, so teaching on it does not seem odd.

EMJE

Hey Emje,

The difference in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 --Jer was a future prophecy concerning the new covenant promised by God Himself. Hebrews 8 was confirming that the new Covenant prophesy from Jer had been fulfilled by Christ. He not only brought the promised New Covenant, He is the New Covenant.

It is no different than when we look throughout the NT and let's say do a search for "fulfilled". The reference and context sought is of OT prophecies proclaimed fulfilled in the NT. The result is Over 50 verses and most would apply within those parameters.

You need to keep in mind that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies concerning the New Covenant and the Messianic prophecies. The promise to Israel having salvation offered them was fulfilled in Christ. Who will come to Christ has not been completed in that it is not the end of the age.

As far as the 2 house---can you show me in Revelation, in the listing of the tribes sealed --is Ephraim there?

If it is not there, then we know the focus on that is a false premise and a tangent sent to confuse and take away what should be our true focus. Serving Christ.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

I thought the name Efraim stood for the 10 tribes(house of Israel)
and whati mean is:
When the bible mentions the 2-house principle, there must be such a principle.
Northern Kingdom and Southern kingdom, the 2 sticks will be one, so i find it not so strange that there is teaching about 2-house.
The contence of such a teaching might be wrongly understood and some leaders or teachers make more of it then there is.
But the 2 house concept is biblical, i think.

(07-09-2009 05:27 PM)Emjesown Wrote: I thought the name Efraim stood for the 10 tribes(house of Israel)
and whati mean is:
When the bible mentions the 2-house principle, there must be such a principle.
Northern Kingdom and Southern kingdom, the 2 sticks will be one, so i find it not so strange that there is teaching about 2-house.
The contence of such a teaching might be wrongly understood and some leaders or teachers make more of it then there is.
But the 2 house concept is biblical, i think.

EMJE

Yes it was mentioned in Scripture, Emje. But those things have been fulfilled.

THis is going way of topic but here, see if this helps close the matter for you.

The Ephramite doctrine, also known as Two House, promotes that the Northern Kingdom of Israel [10 “lost” tribes] is the “lost” house of Israel scattered around the world. The House of Israel is more commonly known as Ephraim which took Joseph’s place as a tribe along with Manasseh. The premise is that Ephraim is as the sand of the sea and therefore those who have a love of going back to keeping the Mosaic Law are really the “lost” tribes of Ephraim. The Scriptures in the OT that point to Ephraim as having an inheritance in the land of Israel is central to this doctrinal position.

Two House/Ephraim doctrine is just another variance of the central theme of “lost” tribes is recognized by a select group of people as their own “geneology” [but hidden until one becomes Torah observant].

Ephramites of Two House also believe that they have a rightful share to land inheritance in Israel and if their “brother”, the House of Judah [the Jews], would recognize and accept them [as they all practice keeping Torah together by bringing the Two Houses together – House of Israel/Joseph/Ephraim/Northern Kingdom with the House of Judah/Northern Kingdom], this would complete the necessary requirement to usher in the Messiah’s return.

* The Jews consider themselves to be all the tribes gathered into one as Israel. They do not designate tribal affiliation other than Levitical for a future third temple.
* Ephraim is not mentioned in the NT other than a city. It is also missing from Revelation 7, as is the tribe of Dan.

Those ***claiming ***to be Ephraimites today try to force that tribal affiliation into the tribe of Joseph that is mentioned in that text. However; it clearly says Joseph, not Ephraim. God is not confused The tribe of Manasseh has 12k, the tribe of Joseph has 12k. There is no missing 12k to be assigned to Ephraim. Nor are there any assigned to Dan.

****Those making the claims of being Ephraim are merely Gentile wannabes, who appear to deny the validity of the New Covenant, and the joining of Jews with Gentiles into one new man in Christ. ****

Both Ephraim and Dan rebelled against God and were broken from being a people for their idolatry and the building of idols within their cities. The end of that argument, of trying to change what tribes are listed is found in Revelation 22:18 :

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

It states plainly not to change the words of this prophecy. No one can argue for the name change without violating those Scriptures.

* The promises of Ephraim in the OT were contingent on their return to God and to His commandments, which they rejected and were destroyed.

***The remnant which remained faithful to God were taken into Judah, as were the remnants of all the tribes.***

We see that even during the time of Rehobam's reign those from all tribes joined themselves to Judah.

2Chronicles 11:16 And after that, out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.
2Chronicles 15:9 And he gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and the sojourners with them out of Ephraim and Manasseh, and out of Simeon: for they came over to him out of Israel in abundance, when they saw that the LORD his God was with him.

During the deportation of the ten tribes, some of them were left behind, intermarried with the Assyrians and became the Samaritans. They have not forgotten who they are after these 2000 plus years.

By the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, those of the tribes that had been scattered to Assyria and Babylon that wished to return did so.

Ezra 2:70 So the priests, and the Levites, and some of the people, and the singers, and the gatekeepers, and the Nethinim, dwelt in their towns, and all Israel in their towns.

Ezra 6:16 And the children of Israel, the priests, and the Levites, and the rest of the children of the captivity, kept the dedication of this house of God with joy,

Ezra 6:21 And the children of Israel, who had come again out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves unto them from the filthiness of the nations of the land, to seek the LORD God of Israel, did eat,

Nehemiah 5:8 And I said unto them, We after our ability have redeemed our brethren the Jews, who were sold unto the nations; and will you even sell your brethren? or shall they be sold unto us? Then held they their peace, and found nothing to answer.

After the exile of both kingdoms, and following the return from Babylon, there followed a return of the exiles as one not two kingdoms. Note Nehemiah makes reference to those that had been sold to the nations, not just Babylon. When Babylon fell to Persia, the whole empire that had previously been under the Assyrians also came under Cyrus. Therefore not just those exiled to Babylon returned but any of those that wished to do so that were had been there from the Assyrian exile. Also, offerings were made for Israel after they returned not just for Judah.

Ezra 8:35 Also the children of those that had been carried away, who had come out of the captivity, offered burnt offerings unto the God of Israel, twelve bullocks for all Israel, ninety and six rams, seventy and seven lambs, twelve male goats for a sin offering: all this was a burnt offering unto the LORD.

By the time of Jesus we see that there were Jews from every tribe in existence and they weren’t lost, they knew who they were.***ALL of Israel was scattered abroad, not just the northern tribes.***

From Acts 2, it is evident that all the tribes could be found all over. As Acts 2 states, “Jews” from many countries had come to celebrate Pentecost, one of the three required feasts for men to attend. This means Jews from all 12 tribes, not one house or the other.

James wrote to the twelve tribes that were scattered, note scattered, not “lost”. To those that like to twist this to mean that James was somehow writing to the lost tribes, would have meant ten tribes not twelve. And how would James have known they existed if they were lost - how would the letter ever reach them?

* There are no longer “two houses”. In Christ, all Jews from all tribes and all gentiles from all the nations on earth, all are one new man in Christ.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich to all that call on him.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Ephraim isn't Judah, as you can see by the Scriptures. And we see by the Scriptures how these issues are dealt with.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

(07-06-2009 08:51 PM)grafted Wrote: That reminds me of the following.
Rev 2:9 "'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

So how come you are supporting that HRM teachers like Chumney spew forth their slander on the God channel - for they say they are Jews, but are a synagogue of satan?

Have I ever, anywhere, called Chumney and his teachings, regarding anything, to be correct or right? NO I have not, but you continually judge me as such. What have I stated about GLC, that they maintain an eclectic selection, and that people who watch them have been lead to Christ through some of teachers on there; did I ever mention Chumney in any way, shape, or form as being one of those people? What have I also stated, that I have called Chumney out for his preaching of fear, though not in regards to his HRM teachings, but due to his economical garbage rhetoric. I have also stated that I have never felt called to or compelled to go after him on regarding his HRM teaching because I was not qualified to do so- yet you would judge me as a supporter of a person whom I clearly do not support on any issue.

That verse in Revelations I have quoted in his room on more than one occasion, as well as in numerous other rooms, e.g. The Great Debate, and resToration being two of many...does this make me a Chumney supporter and HRM sycophant, or have you appointed yourself as my judge to accuse me falsely?

Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

(07-06-2009 08:51 PM)grafted Wrote: That reminds me of the following.
Rev 2:9 "'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

So how come you are supporting that HRM teachers like Chumney spew forth their slander on the God channel - for they say they are Jews, but are a synagogue of satan?

Have I ever, anywhere, called Chumney and his teachings, regarding anything, to be correct or right? NO I have not, but you continually judge me as such. What have I stated about GLC, that they maintain an eclectic selection, and that people who watch them have been lead to Christ through some of teachers on there; did I ever mention Chumney in any way, shape, or form as being one of those people? What have I also stated, that I have called Chumney out for his preaching of fear, though not in regards to his HRM teachings, but due to his economical garbage rhetoric. I have also stated that I have never felt called to or compelled to go after him on regarding his HRM teaching because I was not qualified to do so- yet you would judge me as a supporter of a person whom I clearly do not support on any issue.

That verse in Revelations I have quoted in his room on more than one occasion, as well as in numerous other rooms, e.g. The Great Debate, and resToration being two of many...does this make me a Chumney supporter and HRM sycophant, or have you appointed yourself as my judge to accuse me falsely?

grafted, you were asked to post your view about these people you started threads about. You didn't answer Rose's pm concerning all these threads, that I am aware of. Your statements concerning GLC can easily be interpreted as you believing that the gospel is being presented by any and all who participate. And that is a false assumption. No one can say whether anyone has actually come to Christ because of GLC. Because you don't know if they were given another gospel and another Jesus or the Truth. That's the reality of GLC.

Further, an ecumenical hodgepodge filled with error allows the wolves to ravage the sheep, grafted. There are many being seduced by these characters-simply look into their speaking engagements and the doors being opened to them ---Christian doors--because they are promoted on what you and others claim would be a Christian venue. It's not.

God didn't say throw Scripture to the wind so all manner of teachers can spew forth and give the appearance of being of Christ. And hopefully some might actually be sound on the gospel and someone might actually get that. He warned against such things. It's no different than Sky Angel and the NRB--who promote all manner of error. And yes--it can be scripturally proven by who they endorse, promote and allow air time too. It's a choice. It all boils down to money. And obedience or disobedience to the Scriptures and Christ.

If you think Chumney and these other people are not sound--it is up to you to have made that statement from the get go--as you were asked to do. You chose rather to give the appearance of promoting them--intended or not.

If that's not what you meant--then you need to say what you think of their HR teachings. If you are confused by various teachings or wonder what they are meaning, why not ask? That would clarify considerably. People can only go by what you have said grafted, and if people are getting the same message from it--you need to qualify your statements.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.