*we could start a global movement
Together, we could start a global movement against all kinds of abuse, extremism and terror.*

< Spontaneous combustion or self ignition is the outbreak of fire without application of heat from an external source. Spontaneous combustion may occur when combustible matter, such as hay or coal, is stored in bulk.
It begins with a slow oxidation process (as bacterial fermentation or atmospheric oxidation) under conditions not permitting ready dissipation of heat? e.g., in the centre of a haystack or a pile of coal. -
The shock wave-combustion zone complex forms the detonation wave.
Why to disturb in process which is already going on? >

Internal combustion needs the spark...

We need to tell people where we are going. It's like saying to the little animals, "We are moving out of the jungle." Otherwise they remain indifferent in the fight between lions.

We need to appeal to the "third voice"...

"This third voice represents more than 90% of world population. The sweep of this block will hopefully de-seat and depose governments and leaders who tend to tilt towards Israeli and U.S. Neo-conservatives

<My parents told me how potato beetles floatied from Sweden on Polish communistic farms.
Communistic farms had no right to succeed.
If lambs had the brains of potato beetles wouldn-t be vulnerable between two lions as the * Democratic choice *
Lambs would be free.>

Some lambs are tired of being "sacrificial lamb." They think though they can't jump the fence. We need to show them "grass is greener on the other side"...

Donq; *We need to tell people where we are going. It's like saying to the little animals, "We are moving out of the jungle." Otherwise they remain indifferent in the fight between lions.
We need to appeal to the "third voice"...*

Donq; The little animals will remain indifferent ito the fight between lions, because they are little animals in bodies and hearts.

And they deserve their destiny.
Future belongs to individuals, evolution process is the jumping development. Who cares for members of the coops?

I enjoyed the analogy of spontaneous combustion, indeed, "Why disturb a process that is already going on?"

Pliny the elder died at Pompeii. I'm certain he recorded the occurrence well.

Donq,

When you talk of "the little animals" you insist the way to overthrow the lion is to collectively refuse to cooperate. You are calling for a gathering of force. Once organized, they become a collective force. The persons in charge of organizing are then the ones with the power of the people in their hands. They will not be so willing to relinquish that power. I suggest the disbanding of any organization with that much power once the objective is achieved.

If you have ever witnessed or been part of mob activity it is an excellent example of how hard it is to stop the collective will once it gains momentum. It is a force on it's own and cares not what damage is left in it's wake. Like a snowball rolling down a hill it can turn into an avalanche under the right conditions.

I believe it is occurring that people will demand safety and security, and there will be much death and destruction. Of course those creating the scenario will be well insulated from it and after the carnage will disseminate a "never-again" campaign to install themselves, for the benefit of us all, of course, as the world authority that will ensure it.

<---We all live under the same sky, but we don-t all have same horizon. (Konrad Adenauer). >

OK, I can grant you that, but don't try to impose your horizon on me the way the lion does. Lion wants the whole world to have the same horizon. Media wants to sell "American Way of Life," but many people refuse. Every nation should have their own horizon.

<When you talk of "the little animals" you insist the way to overthrow the lion is to collectively refuse to cooperate. You are calling for a gathering of force. Once organized, they become a collective force. The persons in charge of organizing are then the ones with the power of the people in their hands. They will not be so willing to relinquish that power. I suggest the disbanding of any organization with that much power once the objective is achieved.>

Howdy Pliny
That's the very thing we are trying to avoid. How? Well, you give the people the program you have in mind and they give it their approval by going along with it. I'd say the rate of approval of the specifics proposed here is around 99%. Few people question this or the other. HAVING OPTIONS MAKES SENSE TO THEM. Now, we are not pushing a leader, or even a membership, and I'm out of it as soon as possible because I'd like to chip in from a coop, not from power. Actually whoever is in power would be largely irrelevant because THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES WOULD BE EMPOWERED. Think of the president of Switzerland off hand... I couldn't tell his name, but the bottom line is that THE SYSTEM WORKS. Now think of Venezuela... Chavez this, Chavez that, but little substance at the risk of dictatorship...:confused:

You, Bader and I reject the lion. People will be armed with the anti-lion stories. What other safety mechanisms do we need?

<If you have ever witnessed or been part of mob activity it is an excellent example of how hard it is to stop the collective will once it gains momentum. It is a force on it's own and cares not what damage is left in it's wake. Like a snowball rolling down a hill it can turn into an avalanche under the right conditions.>

I think we are not provoking mob in the least. We don't ask for vengeance on the lion. We mean to tame him. Eastern Europe is a prime example, even if it later sided with another lion.

<I believe it is occurring that people will demand safety and security, and there will be much death and destruction. Of course those creating the scenario will be well insulated from it and after the carnage will disseminate a "never-again" campaign to install themselves, for the benefit of us all, of course, as the world authority that will ensure it. >

Are you talking about us? We are saying NONVIOLENCE, NO LION.
Actually the scenario of the lion clinging to the LIE is the one that threatens us. He lightly pursues wars and ignores environmental destruction. He's the hungry stupid lion that will ultimately destroy us all and then himself.:confused:

He will aim for the jugular if he is threatened. It matters little to him how much destruction is necessary to achieve his goals or just maintain his status. That he is fabian and hides in the night is his protection. All along you think it is the lion and it may be the tiger.

I think we know who the "lion" is. There is actually a small pride of lions responsible for most of the misery in the world. Organizations are not lions, they are it's tools. The lions are the ones doing the herding. They are not faceless corporations, they are individuals.

Just as an addendum. Mob Mentality is real and the only way to stop it is to let it run it's course or kill the majority of them. Any fad is the result of a mob mentality. If you think you can start a rational groundswell and have it snowball rationally I think you are mistaken.

Not only is it not probable but it will be met with enough force to quell it, and that is a lot of force. If you had control of the wealth of the planet at your disposal the amount of force you could muster would be insurmountable, even by the collective will of the little people.

I believe there must be a mediator. Someone who will quell the public. If they found out how they are being hoodwinked and knew the responsible party they would want to hang him.
That someone must also be able to shine a light on those who wish to install themselves as gods over us. They are not greater than each of us and need to understand that.

Confrontation is the essence of the Hegelian dialectic contruct
which only aids the Lion as supreme ruler. Revolution- spontaenious combustion - reactionary force will defeat objectivity
and the damage done will cause many to retreat back into the safety of order as they knew it and anything said later about
what could be or should be will be met with a turned back.

Like minded people have to find the means of reducing the Lions
affect on them. They will probably be a minority to begin with.
Not only do mobs move by emotion and not reason the chance of a majority having the same understanding and positive objectivity is slim.

The light needs to be turned on first so people become aware
of the true environment and the options/opportunities to create
an alturnative environment. Then it is up to people in community
to agree and do something for themselves. They mustnt overreach and try and save the world. Do what they can and it can only be in cooperation and set an example and inspiration for others that will want to follow/copy.

*Pliny the elder died at Pompeii. I'm certain he recorded the occurrence well.*
Pliny, as a Pliny the elder, try to report occurrence, what you see , not what you are told. This is my comment to; * I don't think they needed to fight communist "competition".* This all freedom to Easter Europe is nothing else, but unfortunately successful West attack on competition.

Donq; * Think of the president of Switzerland off hand... I couldn't tell his name, but the bottom line is that THE SYSTEM WORKS. Now think of Venezuela... Chavez this, Chavez that, but little substance at the risk of dictatorship...*
Mafia

He will aim for the jugular if he is threatened. It matters little to him how much destruction is necessary to achieve his goals or just maintain his status.>

Howdy Pliny
I don't think we are dealing here with a lion any worse or better than the Russian or British one. A lion is a lion and it must be respected but also faced with determination. Now, there's two type of lions, the external and what I call the "internal lion": FEAR. The external lion by roaring at you wants you to be paralized by fear to the point of inaction.

The Lech Walesas and Mahatma Gandhis are the ones who rise above fear and face the lion. The lion then gets confused in a monologue that may look more or less like this:

"I'm strong and powerful and I can kill this nonviolent monkey in no time, but everybody will know then WHO I am, and will know that he's the good guy and I'm the bad guy. Then the little animals will notice that this guy's message is a powerful weapon to my Achilles' heel and that I'm WEAK, and may use it to move on me. They will try to avenge all the crimes I've done so far and mobs may be formed... If, on the other hand, I choose to tame myself, my life and property will be respected and I will look like the good guy. Besides the jungle is unsustainable and it's getting dangerous to myself. I want to be the good guy. I want to be strong."

And that's how the lion got tamed...

< That he is fabian and hides in the night is his protection. All along you think it is the lion and it may be the tiger.>

Well, whether lion or tiger he's a predator.

<I think we know who the "lion" is. There is actually a small pride of lions responsible for most of the misery in the world. Organizations are not lions, they are it's tools. The lions are the ones doing the herding. They are not faceless corporations, they are individuals.>

I think the lion lies in those who most benefit from the jungle and from scarcity. It may be individuals as well as corportations, who in the end are "persons" according to US law. Sometimes the person manipulates the corporation and sometimes the other way around. Who can rebel against the corporation?

<Just as an addendum. Mob Mentality is real and the only way to stop it is to let it run it's course or kill the majority of them. Any fad is the result of a mob mentality. If you think you can start a rational groundswell and have it snowball rationally I think you are mistaken.>

You assume the little animals are wild and dangerous, but that's lion propaganda. It's the lion who's that way...

<Not only is it not probable but it will be met with enough force to quell it, and that is a lot of force. If you had control of the wealth of the planet at your disposal the amount of force you could muster would be insurmountable, even by the collective will of the little people. >

Wealth, as Bader has pointed out, is what you create with your hands. The little people have wealth, real wealth. The lion may have a wealth that insures survival in the jungle, but not outside of it. And that's where we mean to go...

<I believe there must be a mediator. Someone who will quell the public. If they found out how they are being hoodwinked and knew the responsible party they would want to hang him.
That someone must also be able to shine a light on those who wish to install themselves as gods over us. They are not greater than each of us and need to understand that. >

The answer is not in the messenger, but in the message... He can be hanged, crucified whatever, but it doesn't matter; the message is out. The genie is out of the bottle...

"A terrorist that blows up a building or assassinates a politician gives government the excuse it wants to crack down on individual liberties and expand its sphere of influence."

<Confrontation is the essence of the Hegelian dialectic contructwhich only aids the Lion as supreme ruler. Revolution- spontaenious combustion - reactionary force will defeat objectivityand the damage done will cause many to retreat back into the safety of order as they knew it and anything said later aboutwhat could be or should be will be met with a turned back.>

Howdy BaderI think we can pull this through with no violence. We don't even need it. Our message is too powerful for us advocating violence.

"Power and violence are not the same. Power is psychological, a moral force that makes people want to obey. Violence enforces obedience through physical coercion. Those who use violence may manage to temporarily impose their will, but their command is always tenuous because when the violence ends, or the threat of it lessens, there is even less incentive to obey the authorities. Control through violence requires constant vigilance. Too little violence is ineffective; too much violence generates revolt.

Violence is the weapon of choice for the impotent. Those who don-t have much power often attempt to control or influence others by using violence. Violence rarely creates power. On the contrary, groups or individuals that use violence often find their actions diminish what little power they do have.

Groups that oppose governments often try to compensate for their perceived lack of power by using violence. Such violence simply reinforces state power. A terrorist that blows up a building or assassinates a politician gives government the excuse it wants to crack down on individual liberties and expand its sphere of influence."

<Like minded people have to find the means of reducing the Lionsaffect on them. They will probably be a minority to begin with.Not only do mobs move by emotion and not reason the chance of a majority having the same understanding and positive objectivity is slim.>

There's two ways to confront the lion: at the individual level or the society level. At the individual level: You know where the lion is; there's little chance he can eat you. He keeps eating the poor lambs though. At the society level: The lambs rise up and confront the lion. He's finally overwhelmed and tamed.

<The light needs to be turned on first so people become awareof the true environment and the options/opportunities to createan alturnative environment. Then it is up to people in communityto agree and do something for themselves. They mustnt overreach and try and save the world. Do what they can and it can only be in cooperation and set an example and inspiration for others that will want to follow/copy.>

OK, it makes sense. Here's what I do: I pass around the leaflets that contain the jungle stories and the solution discussed here. It must be something simple (I sometimes even "spiced it up" with banana, but I know you don't like the method) and tempting (if not victory itself, then the party we promise). Then is up to the people to do something. I don't know if they'll ever will...but I have a lot of fun doing it...

One note: Yesterday evening I stopped an African-American lady and her daughter, and they told me they had read it before and liked it a lot. Then the daughter, no more than 13 years old, asked me for another copy. Can you imagine? This is not indifferent adults, this is KIDS CONFRONTING THE LION, whose very survival depends in coming out of the jungle. And there are many reading this.