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The republicans could EASILY be blamed. Someone like Al Franken could get on the national circuit, sit on the couch with Oprah or The View, or wherever else flyover eyes park, and start shit-talking his opposition by simply saying that we want to give this this and this to you, but the republicans don't give a damn about you unless you make 250k a year or more, because they are using your livelihood and security as collateral or their rich campaign donors.

Done. And watch the ensuing ratings and cable news meltdown that would happen. You HAVE to use the tools available to you.

obama did this over health care. it didn't really make much of a difference

He did it after two months of the Republicans and the crazies screaming over and over at the cameras dismantling his position. If he went on from the start and every week and controlled the message not reacted to the counter-message results in public opinion at least would of been different.

Westminster systems do have their strengths and weaknesses. So yes, NZ or the UK rarely have legislative gridlock, but on the other hand 3 weeks ago NZ's parliament passed in one day a significant change in employment law that may (or may not) have been demanded by Warner Brothers in order to ensure the Hobbit is made in NZ and that law will stay in place, without review until a future parliament decides to change it. The friggen Hobbit caused parliament to disregard constitutional convention and nothing in our system can stop that.

That said, the ease of abusing that ability is tempered by the number of healthy parties and the ability of voters to throw out the offending party even when they can't agree on exactly which party should replace them.

Would I be okay with those Will? Nope. Would the country blame the Republicans well if the Democrats had focused on abusing the media probably but now nope. When this gets passed will it stop the Republican barrage? Not a chance. Will those things you just said be used against Obama? Probably! "He passed this to keep people on welfare." "He doesn't believe in the free market." "Those people on UI are just lazy." Will I live in one of the Republican echo boxes. I live in the place where Tancredo was from. Our radio stations have commercials on how wonderful it is we sell coal to China and that we are getting rich from the upper class tax breaks. This is a lose lose for Obama with the right wing sound board no matter what. But could of been a win if he stuck to his guns with his base and those who would be proselytizers and apologetics for him. Hell he would be in step with the majority of the country according to the polls.

So I am sorry Will I would be said those would be gone due to Republican obstructionism. But when they come up again, especially the UI you think it will get through the Republican house? Or through the now close senate? Because you know what it won't and they will blame it on the Democrats.

Democrats seem to keep trying to play by this old set of rules of doing the right thing will always win out in the long run. Sadly with how the media is and such this isn't true anymore.

the question is not whether passing this tax cuts and UI extension will help him with the hard right. it won't.

the question is whether it's

1) on balance better policy than doing nothing. it probably is

2) whether it's better than the realistic alternatives when it comes to winning moderates and liberals. it probably is.

Man, Garrosh was such a prick in WotLK. Really he and Varian needed to just fuck and get it over with then maybe run away together and let the grown ups run the factions.

He was, and still kind of is in Cata. But honestly the horde needs a dick like him to set some shit straight. Thrall let so much dumb fuckery occur under his watch that Garrosh got handed a shit sandwhich. Now he's all balls to the wall lets take some fucking territory and remind the alliance why they used to fear the god damn horde.

Really I'm starting to think that Democratic voters are the biggest problem. The Republican base isn't going to change, but Dems need to grow the fuck up and realize that they need to show up at the polls for the next 8, 12, 16, 20 years in order to really get the country they want and a party with enough political wherewithal to throw its weight around the way they want.

This hissy fit hand-sitting after a couple of years is a good indication that they're mostly just going to fuck off and hand the government back to the Repubs and then whine again, though.

I don't believe this. I have voted in every election since I was 18. Including the last one where I swallowed my pride and voted for Bennett because the other choice was just horrible to me. I voted for Hickenlooper because my choice was him, tea party Maes or the Nazi Tancredo! I will continue to vote the lesser evil. As will pretty much every Democrat I know. But I will tell you, if you put people with spines and fight you won't see the low turn outs because that is when it looks like your vote actually did something.

The key to winning is creating the illusion of power in the person voting. If they feel their vote did something positive and put someone into office who will fight for them they will vote. This is part of why Obama got such a decent turn out in this country relatively. He sounded like he would fight for not just things the Left wanted but things that the country wanted.

The Republicans time and again present to people this is what we are going to do for you. So people voting for them know they will or at least make the cursory try at it which is more than most Democrats recently.

You don't honestly believe that McCain would have been the same or better.

I used to like McCain back when he was against Bush and offering an alternative to neo-conservatism. I think we all know better by now though.

I think what happened was McCain found out the hard way that even inside the GOP you can't do anything unless you are part of the hive mind

There was never a McCain The Maverick in any real sense. It's not like that was his true personality or anything. He's always been a guy who took whatever position would get him media attention. That was the whole maverick myth when that was what it took to stand out from the pack and get on Letterman, and it was the good party soldier schtick when that was what it took to get elected.

There was never any there there. I'm not convinced he holds any actual beliefs

[chat] is a lot more interesting if you combine the two topics. Barack Obama and John Boehner got into a battle to the death, and Obama's blade was poisoned so he accidently slew Boehner. Now, with the world in upheaval, and Sarah Palin's Forsaken getting deadlier by the day, no one knows the state of Americeron.

Preach they are screwed if it goes through. The cost of this tax break could of payed for national healthcare for 10 years. Which would of done better.

Also Obama never had 60 votes in the Senate. Never. He had 59 at most and Liberman when he bowed down to him. Throw in the 6 months with Franken to get in. Then the loss of Ted Kennedy which lead to 58 votes. Seriously someone in the strategy session miscalculated or he really didn't care and passed stuff he wanted and was actually just double speaking to us on the campaign.

If you look at it between the Senate and him basically giving the Republicans his ball so they could just go home and not let anything happen is what the last two years have been. He has called for bipartisanship which doesn't work when the other sides to destroy you and salt the Earth. If he fought tooth and nail. Showed those who blocked stuff as being wrong for the country or at least attacked them you would probably have seen a better mid-term for him. Better poll numbers and he would still have the support of his base.

The guy basically has lost me. He isn't worth my air to scream about at this point. Either he is the worst negotiator ever or he just doesn't want to negotiate. He held the keys and the power and hell the public backing. He just seems to act like he had none of these.

i don't believe this. it was in the political interests of the republicans to block everything they could, but it was not clear from the beginning that this was the case, nor that they would have the party discipline to carry through with it. it turned out they did.

Given the previous two years, that was absolutely clear to everyone willing to admit it.

Really I'm starting to think that Democratic voters are the biggest problem. The Republican base isn't going to change, but Dems need to grow the fuck up and realize that they need to show up at the polls for the next 8, 12, 16, 20 years in order to really get the country they want and a party with enough political wherewithal to throw its weight around the way they want.

This hissy fit hand-sitting after a couple of years is a good indication that they're mostly just going to fuck off and hand the government back to the Repubs and then whine again, though.

yeah; that's my sense of it. left wingers are really just not constitutionally able to deal with compromise, dealing with the better of two unsavory alternatives, sucking it up and continuing to cheerlead for their team. we're a bunch of fucking babies. our structural deficiencies are nothing compared to republicans, but somehow they can pull together whereas we cannot.

i don't know how our liberals are so fucking flaky in this country and somehow every other first-world nation on earth has a better showing of liberals.

[chat] is a lot more interesting if you combine the two topics. Barack Obama and John Boehner got into a battle to the death, and Obama's blade was poisoned so he accidently slew Boehner. Now, with the world in upheaval, and Sarah Palin's Forsaken getting deadlier by the day, no one knows the state of Americeron.

[chat] is a lot more interesting if you combine the two topics. Barack Obama and John Boehner got into a battle to the death, and Obama's blade was poisoned so he accidently slew Boehner. Now, with the world in upheaval, and Sarah Palin's Forsaken getting deadlier by the day, no one knows the state of Americeron.

[chat] is a lot more interesting if you combine the two topics. Barack Obama and John Boehner got into a battle to the death, and Obama's blade was poisoned so he accidently slew Boehner. Now, with the world in upheaval, and Sarah Palin's Forsaken getting deadlier by the day, no one knows the state of Americeron.

Really I'm starting to think that Democratic voters are the biggest problem. The Republican base isn't going to change, but Dems need to grow the fuck up and realize that they need to show up at the polls for the next 8, 12, 16, 20 years in order to really get the country they want and a party with enough political wherewithal to throw its weight around the way they want.

This hissy fit hand-sitting after a couple of years is a good indication that they're mostly just going to fuck off and hand the government back to the Repubs and then whine again, though.

I don't believe this. I have voted in every election since I was 18. Including the last one where I swallowed my pride and voted for Bennett because the other choice was just horrible to me. I voted for Hickenlooper because my choice was him, tea party Maes or the Nazi Tancredo! I will continue to vote the lesser evil. As will pretty much every Democrat I know. But I will tell you, if you put people with spines and fight you won't see the low turn outs because that is when it looks like your vote actually did something.

The key to winning is creating the illusion of power in the person voting. If they feel their vote did something positive and put someone into office who will fight for them they will vote. This is part of why Obama got such a decent turn out in this country relatively. He sounded like he would fight for not just things the Left wanted but things that the country wanted.

The Republicans time and again present to people this is what we are going to do for you. So people voting for them know they will or at least make the cursory try at it which is more than most Democrats recently.

Yeah, you have to keep voting even when you've lost. And convince the whiners who didn't vote to start voting and keep doing it even when they lose.

That's what it takes to sustain long-term change. Anything else and you don't really want change, you just want to whine about not getting the thing you were too lazy to ever truly work towards.

There was never a McCain The Maverick in any real sense. It's not like that was his true personality or anything. He's always been a guy who took whatever position would get him media attention. That was the whole maverick myth when that was what it took to stand out from the pack and get on Letterman, and it was the good party soldier schtick when that was what it took to get elected.

There was never any there there. I'm not convinced he holds any actual beliefs

He's fucking slime, what he did to his first wife was disgusting. What happened to him was horrible in vietnam, but he currently encourages policies that put more servicemen in harms way which means FUCK THAT MOTHER FUCKER SHOULD HAVE DIED THERE!

Westminster systems do have their strengths and weaknesses. So yes, NZ or the UK rarely have legislative gridlock, but on the other hand 3 weeks ago NZ's parliament passed in one day a significant change in employment law that may (or may not) have been demanded by Warner Brothers in order to ensure the Hobbit is made in NZ and that law will stay in place, without review until a future parliament decides to change it. The friggen Hobbit caused parliament to disregard constitutional convention and nothing in our system can stop that.

That said, the ease of abusing that ability is tempered by the number of healthy parties and the ability of voters to throw out the offending party even when they can't agree on exactly which party should replace them.

I used to think that was the case as well, but this current government has done all sorts of thing like what I've mentioned, despite being in a coalition, despite all the normal safeguards.

On a related note, I was at a lecture on constitutional law tonight in London by NZ's former Attorney General/Speaker of the House of Representatives. One of the neat things about being a Kiwi is that I can meet this kind of person quite easily without having any connections or being a lobbyist

Really I'm starting to think that Democratic voters are the biggest problem. The Republican base isn't going to change, but Dems need to grow the fuck up and realize that they need to show up at the polls for the next 8, 12, 16, 20 years in order to really get the country they want and a party with enough political wherewithal to throw its weight around the way they want.

This hissy fit hand-sitting after a couple of years is a good indication that they're mostly just going to fuck off and hand the government back to the Repubs and then whine again, though.

yeah; that's my sense of it. left wingers are really just not constitutionally able to deal with compromise, dealing with the better of two unsavory alternatives, sucking it up and continuing to cheerlead for their team. we're a bunch of fucking babies. our structural deficiencies are nothing compared to republicans, but somehow they can pull together whereas we cannot.

i don't know how our liberals are so fucking flaky in this country and somehow every other first-world nation on earth has a better showing of liberals.

Really I'm starting to think that Democratic voters are the biggest problem. The Republican base isn't going to change, but Dems need to grow the fuck up and realize that they need to show up at the polls for the next 8, 12, 16, 20 years in order to really get the country they want and a party with enough political wherewithal to throw its weight around the way they want.

This hissy fit hand-sitting after a couple of years is a good indication that they're mostly just going to fuck off and hand the government back to the Repubs and then whine again, though.

yeah; that's my sense of it. left wingers are really just not constitutionally able to deal with compromise, dealing with the better of two unsavory alternatives, sucking it up and continuing to cheerlead for their team. we're a bunch of fucking babies. our structural deficiencies are nothing compared to republicans, but somehow they can pull together whereas we cannot.

i don't know how our liberals are so fucking flaky in this country and somehow every other first-world nation on earth has a better showing of liberals.