Let me write now a few points about this. Firstly all Greece opponents who went to war with Greece from ancient times had biggest military power than Greece. From the times of Persian empire, of Themistokles and later to Alexander the Great, to the wars during the Byzantine empire, and finally to the war in Albania with the Italians during WW2 etc... Greeks never had a war with an enemy smaller than them .
From around the 70 million people living there, we have to count that around 15-20 millions of them are kurds which means further with the first chance they will uprise and this will cause there a civil war.
I dont count much for getting help from european governments (even now they dont help us as far as issues with Turkey) but i hope from a help from Russia, Armenia and Serbia. I have to say here that even the rest of muslims dont like Turks from the times of ottoman empire (remember the time of the earthquakes there and how much they helped them).
So in other words turks will have to cover their butts from everywhere in a war with Greece.

I'm sure we all understood what he wanted to say. Its just when you've been tollerating their crap for at least 800yrs (I mean when they first started to be some kind of power, don't get me wrong) you want to hear some things the way they truely are and not what was intended to be.

Neoptolemus
Just one objection to your post. I'm not really sure how helpfull the Russians might be, since they were one of the basic reasons our so called "allies" backed out on us and we lost the "Poli" (Constadinoupolis). I only can hope that if the time comes I'll be proven wrong.

Location: Helping, giving, benefiting not for my troubles. Rewards for great thought far from reach. Living to learn where none is wise.

Posts: 812

Re: who would win a war between Turkey and Greece?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellinas

U.S.S. Dixiecrat
I'm sure we all understood what he wanted to say. Its just when you've been tollerating their crap for at least 800yrs (I mean when they first started to be some kind of power, don't get me wrong) you want to hear some things the way they truely are and not what was intended to be.
16

I kind of know what you mean: Confederates are to Yankees, what Greeks are to Turks. Maybe???

Greetings everyone.
Here are some interesting analysis of Turkey's population by Karen Ayvazyan:

“70 million” “Turks” in Anatolia.

It became a common expression that we are surrounded by almost 100 million Turks.

Those who say that, want you to stop your struggle. How can we fight 100 million Turks?

One can ask – how come there are 100 million Turks? The answer is usually ready. They say, there are 70 million Turks in Turkey, 20 million in North Iran and 8 million in Azerbaijan. Millions more of their cousins in their native lands of Asia all the way to China.

We already know there are no 8 million Turks in Azerbaijan. Three million at its best. People often say wait, isn’t that true that these lands were once all Greek and Armenian then it became Turkish. That’s true. But did it happen through Genocide? No! During centuries of Turkish occupation local population changed its tongue from Greek/Armenia to Turkish and that’s how Turks gained in numbers. Through the assimilation of Greeks & Armenian mainly. Up until this day the typical mongoloid Turks can be found right where they should be – high in the Sammer pastures of Uzunjajla, in Pontus Mountains along Black Sea and in couple of other regions. But all those Turkish villagers (ludicrous combination of words – Turks are nomads who don’t live in villages) – are nothing else but assimilated Byzantines. And some of them up to this day secretly praise their real God – Jesus Christ (though the Greek & Armenian languagea are already lost). The real Turks of Turkey are a small minority.

But are there 70 million Turks in Turkey? What if I say, there are 15 million Turks in 70 million Republic of Turkey. Would you feel better? Let’s count together.

6) Of these 40 million “Turks”, how much have first learned that they were "Turks" in addition to being ordinary Turkish speaking crypto-former Byzantine "Muslims" after the issuance of 1923 Ataturk's turkification order, according to which all Muslims of Anatolia were written down as “Turks”?

My best guess would be - at least 5 million crypto-Byzantines in Antalya region, and at least 20 million on Aegean and Black Sea shores.

Which corresponds to the following. Before 1915 Anatolia had the population slightly larger then 20 million. In 1920s, after millions of White Christians were killed and deported, Anatolia, that is Greek and Armenian lands under occupation had about 14 million of remaining population. Now it is 70 million. Which is a 5 times growth.

This means that every Anatolian nation's population had grown 5 times ever since.

If Turks are 15 million today, how many were they then? 15 divided by 5 (growth rate) = 3 million Turks of 1915. 14 million of Anatolian population - 3 million Turks = 11 million of indigenous people other than Turks in 1915.

12 million” (sometimes 20 million) Kurds in Turkey

We will keep it simple and straightforward.

Don’t be afraid of numbers. The power is not in numbers but in purity and unity.

How many are Kurds, where do they settle, how unified are they – those are the question that are needed to be addressed.

Panic-mongers just love this argument. They say – we will never be able to get our lands back, because they are covered with millions of Kurds.

It’s not true.

Kurds of Turkey are 12 million. They were 2,5 million in 1915 and, at 5 times growth rate, they grew over to 12 million. Some Kurdish sources say a figure of 20 million. It is not true. This “mathematicians” add to the original 12 million Kurds 8 million Alevis, which is a nation totally different from Turks and religiously close to Kurds of Dersim, who are of Alevi faith.

Overall, Kurds of Turkey are divided into three tribes with three different dialects – Kurmanji, Zaza and Dersimi. These three dialects are so different that people of these tribes can hardly understand each other. What kind of national unity is that?

We are defenseless against the turks?

Number and armament of Armenian Army is top secret. Some figures are given out, but they are just the tip of the iceberg.

Officially, Armenia spends just above 100 million dollars on its 100 thousand men Army. Unofficially, many other ways of indirect financing exist. For example, unofficially, all kerosene and fuel trade is in the hands of the businesses that are controlled by the Army.

The same unclear situation is with the number of soldiers in Armenian Army. Officially – it is slightly larger then 100 thousand men. Unofficially, it is much larger, and may well reach the numbers of 300 thousand and more. For example, such civil services as Police, Firefighters, Rescuers of natural disasters – all receive military education. If they are armed, they are full fledged soldiers. Diaspora Armenians should also be accounted as a resource for military recruitment. Although Diaspora fighters are not numerous, their moral spirit, their sense of justification of their acts is much higher then of a regular Armenian Army and can only be compared to the Army of Artsakh. Diasporans may be prospectively utilized in special operations, which require skills and determination.

Artsakh Army itself shall not be forgotten. A region of 150 thousand inhabitants, officially, has an Army of 30 thousand. To serve in the Army is an honor of Artsakhetsi. It is hard to believe that Artsakh, such a small place on the map, had given a record number of military heroes.
Today’s Artsakh is Armed to teeth. They are reluctant to admit that they have even Military Air Force of Artsakh with Armenian pilots.

This brings us to the question of armament. This is the most secret issue, therefore, I would just say what Turks themselves claim. Turks say we have ballistic missiles with a range of 800 kilometers, capable to hit Baku, Erzerum, Chechnia in Russia and North Iraq and Ankara itself. Easy to believe. But what is more important is what you put in the warhead of such missile. If it’s TNT, it’s fine. But if it is something more significant… To cut off speculation, I should just say that Armenian news agency Arminfo http://www.arminfo.am/ had admitted in its April 11, 2002 issue that Armenia had purchased nukes. Turks had mentioned several times, that we have nukes, too.

Other conventional armaments are less classified – we have hundreds of tanks, artillery pieces, etc. Armenia produces its own bullets, assault rifles, machine guns, and pistols. Greece supplies Armenia with unifroms among other things.
The only classified area is aviation. They say Armenia has several Mig-23, a couple of Mig-25, some Su-27 (Russian Airbase with Mig-29's is not counted). Rather small numbers, given the fact that Russian “Su” (after Sukhoi) engineering bureau, the producer of “Su” fighters, is headed by Mikhail Pogosian from Artsakh. Don’t also forget that aeronautic-engineering is a traditional sphere of Armenians. Up to this day large number of Armenians work for “Mig” and for “Su”. Armenian high spirit ends up in a desire to fly, so to speak.

Thanks to M. Pogosian, the head of Russian “Su”, the plan of production of Russian experimental Su-47 in Armenia may turn to reality soon. There are other mutual Russo-Armenian military projects, as well.

Speaking of aviation, one shall not forget that in the initial phase of Artsakh Liberation War, Armenia was supplied with a several Western jet fighters (up to 8 French Mirages) and with a couple of attack helicopters, both made available by the Diaspora.

Also, despite of financial difficulties, Armenia is struggling to remain on the cutting edge of technological development and its logical place of use – military. Thus, thanks to strong school of Armenian Nuclear Physics (developers of first Soviet nuclear and Hydrogen bombs – Alikhnian, Kocharian) and thanks to strong Radio-Physics and Laser-Physics schools of Armenia (Hambartsumian), Armenia had developed weapons based on laser and other high energy technologies.

Overall, Armenian Army feels itself capable of solving military tasks standing before it, including fighting its immediate enemy – Turkey. In fact, one shall understand that there is only one enemy – Turkey. Azerbaijan’s Army had not yet recovered from military defeat in Artsakh and is riddled with corruption. Georgian Army is in a state of defragmentation, with a total small number of 18 thousand (against official 100 thousand Armenian Army). Iran has no need to attack Armenia. Armenia has military agreements with Greece, Iran, Syria, Cyprus, which surround Turkey from all sides. Armenia has strategic relations with Russia, China. Armenia has decent relations with US and great relations with the EU, as well, thanks for Diaspora efforts.

The only threat is Turkey. Armenia is an obvious threat to Turkey too.

If it was not so, why then Turkey keeps 200,000 soldiers out of its total Army of 500,000 on the borders with Armenia? In 1993 after Armenia won the war for the liberation of Artsakhes from Azeri Turks, Turkey was about to invade Armenia however Greek agents quickly discovered the plan and notified Russia and Armenia via their ambassadors and Turkey quickly backed off.

Why would “large” and “strong” “70 million” Turkey keep almost half of its Army at the borders with its “smallest” and “weakest” neighbor?

In a possible Hellenic-Turkish war,US can`t oppenly support Turkey and of course US can`t attack directly Greece for several reasons.Yugoslavia and Iraq are one case and Greece is another,totally different.
A direct involvement of US against Greece would have a huge effect in all European peoples.It would be like an attack on Europe itself.And not only because Hellas is a part of EU.

About f-16 structure.
ELVO (Hellenic Military Industry) exclusively constructs four major parts of the f-16 fighters.Without these parts no f-16 can fly anywhere in the world.

I repeat that in a Hellenic-Turkish war,with no involvement by any other,the one that goes on the offence will be totally destroyed.

And lastly,I don`t know who is in the worse position.The one who has borders with 70 million muslim Turks or the one who is surrounded by more than 350 million Orthodox Christians...