This is a discussion on playing second (/third) pair out of position as PFR within the online poker forums, in the Cash Games section; I'm a little unsure of what to do when i have say i have JJ and raised preflop with one caller (let's say an unknown

I'm a little unsure of what to do when i have say i have JJ and raised preflop with one caller (let's say an unknown zoom player at 10nl) and i'm OOP. flop comes Q52 should i bet or check/call? and if i check/call will i be check/calling or check/folding on a blank turn? what about on the turn if i bet?

the reason i posted this is because i hear two different arguments. some say check since "it's hard to get value from worse by betting", others suggest betting when OOP since "checking turns your hand face up" with their reasoning being your checking range is going to be "at best top pair with a weak kicker" and so a good opponent can just blast you off your hand. so "betting makes the hand easier to play"

so which argument has more weight to it at the micros? and also if you have a more vulnerable 2nd pair hand like 67s on T72 should that lean the argument even more towards betting since so many bad cards can come? and what about third pair type hands?

Similar Threads for: playing second (/third) pair out of position as PFR

In this spoot with just one card over my pair i would take 2 shoots on the flop and turn (if the turn is blank as you said) and maybe i will shoot again the river (if is blank) but this depends of many situations...

#3

9th April 2015, 9:57 AM

Aces2w1n [4,452]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: holdem

Just remember when your against 1 opponent. It's 50% chance they will flop a higher pair then you. So hopefully the folding to you pre helps get you over to the +ev mark.

Hence the reason why you 3bet or 4bet JJ and get rid of the competition bud

In this spoot with just one card over my pair i would take 2 shoots on the flop and turn (if the turn is blank as you said) and maybe i will shoot again the river (if is blank) but this depends of many situations...

wow this seems really spewy... i can't even tell if your taking the line for value or as a bluff

#6

9th April 2015, 11:21 AM

mottotom27 [422]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aces2w1n

Hence the reason why you 3bet or 4bet JJ and get rid of the competition bud

it's a single raised pot bud

Quote:

I looked up how to play JJ and found this on youtube.

yea i've seen that lol

#7

9th April 2015, 3:02 PM

GWU73 [613]

Poker at: ACR

Game: NLHE PLO LHE

As the pfr I would generally bet. You likely have the best hand. If you are worried About getting raised you can check, and either call a bet or bet the turn if opponent checks back. I generally try the check line if I am employing a check raise strategy vs aggressive players - to disguise my hand.

#8

11th April 2015, 5:58 PM

Mr Sandbag [2,631]

Game: Holdem

You really won't find an answer here, tbh. Like most spots in poker, there is no "one size fits all" move. It depends entirely on your opponent. It's hard to say if you'll get called by worse without knowing the player.

#9

11th April 2015, 7:42 PM

milesaway0 [19]

Poker at: poker stars

Game: omaha hi lo

I say bet huge on the flop to see where you stand, dont be a wimp

#10

13th April 2015, 3:30 AM

mottotom27 [422]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: holdem

re: Poker & playing second (/third) pair out of position as PFR

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Sandbag

You really won't find an answer here, tbh. Like most spots in poker, there is no "one size fits all" move. It depends entirely on your opponent. It's hard to say if you'll get called by worse without knowing the player.

i understand that, but what if the player is unknown?

#11

13th April 2015, 5:13 AM

Mr Sandbag [2,631]

Game: Holdem

Make a judgment based on the player pool tendencies.

#12

14th April 2015, 4:20 PM

mottotom27 [422]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Sandbag

Make a judgment based on the player pool tendencies.

problem is i have no idea what the population tendencies are at 10nl. at a guess i'd say that the average player would bet once when checked to and give up on the turn but i could be way off...thoughts?

#13

14th April 2015, 4:29 PM

Mr Sandbag [2,631]

Game: Holdem

Not a bad assumption. So if you are assuming you'll only get called by better when you bet but your opponent will bet a wide range when checked to, you might want to check/call and evaluate turn.

#14

14th April 2015, 5:06 PM

mottotom27 [422]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Sandbag

Not a bad assumption. So if you are assuming you'll only get called by better when you bet but your opponent will bet a wide range when checked to, you might want to check/call and evaluate turn.

ok well if i'm assuming correct i guess i'll just do that, provided my second pair doesn't need much protection (obviously 77 is a lot more vulnerable than JJ on Q62)

#15

15th April 2015, 5:03 PM

Figaroo2 [4,137]

Poker at: 888

Game: holdem

re: Poker & playing second (/third) pair out of position as PFR

In general with the JJ on a dry board and 1 overcard Im c betting and reevaluating after the turn card if I get called. on this sort of flop its pretty much for value . In general callers range will include a lot of lower/mid pairs which will often call at least once to keep you honest but there is a lot of other suited connected stuff that will just fold on the flop. Im not so keen on betting on your 2nd example the lower board runouts. It doesn't hit your perceived range as the pfr

#16

15th April 2015, 6:39 PM

mottotom27 [422]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by Figaroo2

In general with the JJ on a dry board and 1 overcard Im c betting and reevaluating after the turn card if I get called. on this sort of flop its pretty much for value . In general callers range will include a lot of lower/mid pairs which will often call at least once to keep you honest but there is a lot of other suited connected stuff that will just fold on the flop. Im not so keen on betting on your 2nd example the lower board runouts. It doesn't hit your perceived range as the pfr

seems fine but i'm often stuck regarding what to do on the turn. vs an average reg are you bet/folding, check/calling or check/folding turn? i picked a bad example with the lower board runout. but 67s on Q72 is probs a bet for protection right?

#17

15th April 2015, 8:20 PM

Figaroo2 [4,137]

Poker at: 888

Game: holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by mottotom27

seems fine but i'm often stuck regarding what to do on the turn. vs an average reg are you bet/folding, check/calling or check/folding turn? i picked a bad example with the lower board runout. but 67s on Q72 is probs a bet for protection right?

Well how you continue is totally player dependent
Double barreling is my preferred option on the turn for most 2nd pair hands on dry boards.... single broadway flops are good for the preflop raiser to barrel.
The aggressive action is always going to be the most profitable if the circumstances are right, we have to consider his flop calling range and how that fits the turn card. There will be times, versus fish where giving up is best. There there will be times in WA/WB situations like this where pot controlling makes the most sense.

A lot of hands will call a bet that are way behind JJ here. Your only scary hands are AA, KK, AQ, KQ, QJ (which there's not many of), Q10. Maybe Q9s.

SO, I call this a value bet. Re-evaluate on the turn.

Also, it protects against hands like A9, AT, AJ, KT, just because they'll usually fold out.

Now, if you a turn a King, it's much harder to figure out what to do.

#19

14th May 2015, 7:42 AM

Karametric [192]

What weiss said ^^

But it is player dependent. some people won't keep those smaller pairs if you bet but will assume they are good on the turn if you check the flop, but that's not much value gained. Some will keep them around for flop and turn bets.

The flop is fairly easy (bet/fold unless you have a really good reason), but the turn is a nightmare even if the next card isn't scary. Usually here you won't get called by too much worse, save for the aforementioned fish who call with anything.