lol..maybe its the same dreamers that were waiting on toy story graphics from the emotion engine....lol

Ugh so annoying that this misinformation still exists. Ms made the toy story quote not sony.

"One of the basic premises of the Xbox is to put the power in the hands of the artist," Blackley said, which is why Xbox developers "are achieving a level of visual detail you really get in 'Toy Story.'"

Ugh so annoying that this misinformation still exists. Ms made the toy story quote not sony.

"One of the basic premises of the Xbox is to put the power in the hands of the artist," Blackley said, which is why Xbox developers "are achieving a level of visual detail you really get in 'Toy Story.'"

This is about how the framework makes use of the GPU/CPU overheads.
And no, the Xbox one does not code to the metal, its close but it has a layer of indirection.

That's the significant slide, it will free up the CPU and cut down on how long the GPU is sitting around doing nothing.

This isn't anything Sony isn't working on, although they have the advantage of worrying only about one platform, they already have an advantage as their API is already tightly focused (BF4 guys tweeted the other day that the PS4 does not need MANTLE it mor ehtna adequate to do similar things already).

In short, performance gains will happen on Xbox One, significant ones at that, but no its not secret sauce, we aren't talking anything above 30% increase.

But we are taking about catching up to where Sony likely is at already (or closer to it than MS is at this point), not in power, just in efficiency of their API.

This is about how the framework makes use of the GPU/CPU overheads.
And no, the Xbox one does not code to the metal, its close but it has a layer of indirection.

That's the significant slide, it will free up the CPU and cut down on how long the GPU is sitting around doing nothing.

This isn't anything Sony isn't working on, although they have the advantage of worrying only about one platform, they already have an advantage as their API is already tightly focused (BF4 guys tweeted the other day that the PS4 does not need MANTLE it mor ehtna adequate to do similar things already).

In short, performance gains will happen on Xbox One, significant ones at that, but no its not secret sauce, we aren't talking anything above 30% increase.

But we are taking about catching up to where Sony likely is at already (or closer to it than MS is at this point), not in power, just in efficiency of their API.

Not really. That slides means PC. Where PC API is now and where PC with DX12 API is in the future.

They even specifically go in detail how they are now using better multicore on CPU on DX12 compared to DX11 using mostly single core in multicore CPU.

Unless you are trying to tell me Xbox One CPU was only running mostly 1 CPU core until now, you don't have a case there.

There is no 30 percent, nothing is improving for giving X1 what it already has. On the other hand, this tells me my expensive CPU on my PC will now do its job.

Last edited by AttackTitan; 03-21-2014 at 01:12.
Reason: bolded for emphasis

Not really. That slides means PC. Where PC API is now and where PC with DX12 API is in the future.

They even specifically go in detail how they are now using better multicore on CPU on DX12 compared to DX11 using mostly single core in multicore CPU.

Unless you are trying to tell me Xbox One CPU was only running mostly 1 CPU core until now, you don't have a case there.

On the other hand, this tells me my expensive CPU on my PC will now do its job.

The guts of DX is hidden away from even the developers, not saying they are using one cpu core, just that DX primarily does.
You can already multiple draw call from different CPU's but this is about that step after, one that draw call command is sent by DX.
The have explicitly stated that yes we will see performance improvements on the Xbox One with this.

The guts of DX is hidden away from even the developers, not saying they are using one cpu core, just that DX primarily does.
You can already multiple draw call from different CPU's but this is about that step after, one that draw call command is sent by DX.
The have explicitly stated that yes we will see performance improvements on the Xbox One with this.

I am not talking about the "gut" of DX. Xbox One API is supposed to be very "close to metal" API as is. Dev can run their program and see which core is more occupied and allocate to another. PC using 1 CPU over other is common issue and is ALREADY EASILY fixed on certain games with patches.

Are you saying that console has not achieved optimization that some PC games have? Something as easy as unloading one CPU core to another?

Are you seriously telling us until now Xbox One has been mostly using only 1 CPU core?

MS saying Xbox One will benefit means PR. Their tech demo is Forza running on PC with Titan Gfx. Seems like saying now because PC is low API too, it is easier to port. According to MS, is hardly a source without them proving it. According to MS Xbox One has hardware strong as PS4. and all those cloud bs and such.

The guts of DX is hidden away from even the developers, not saying they are using one cpu core, just that DX primarily does.
You can already multiple draw call from different CPU's but this is about that step after, one that draw call command is sent by DX.
The have explicitly stated that yes we will see performance improvements on the Xbox One with this.

Yeah I dunno Mynd, reading through the slides and what all those links say, it looks more like console efficiency gains are moving over to PC. There might be some gains to the X1, but that statement is mostly coming from MS, would need a 3rd party or detailed explanation on the precise gains X1 will have.

I am not talking about the "gut" of DX. Xbox One API is supposed to be very "close to metal" API as is. Dev can run their program and see which core is more occupied and allocate to another. PC using 1 CPU over other is common issue and is ALREADY EASILY fixed on certain games with patches.

Direct comprises of a lot of complex layers of abstraction, there is obviously the top layer, which is the interface a developer works with.

So:

Layer 1-> Developer sends a draw command, of a render state change to the GFX card via DX command.

Layer 2->Direct X does it's thing, on its own framework, in a prescribed way that hold the whole framework together

Layer 3->Drivers interact in a specific way with Layer 2, according to the development kits MS sent out to the likes of Nvidia, AMD etc

When Microsoft talk about running a thin layer to allow DX to talk to the Xbox One Hardware, its still in the prescribed manner that Layer 2 ask of it.
That layer 2, runs DX11 code in a way that MS first envisaged DX11 to work, incremental updates only add features to it, for example its likely they added support for ESRAM within in the drivers, opened up more direct routes to speical parts of the GPU.

But the core functions of that DX code, when you issue a "draw" command for example, is still ultimately run on the internal layer 2 framework, and if that framework is setup in such a way as to run on one CPU core, then thats where it will run.

Are you saying that console has not achieved optimization that some PC games have? Something as easy as unloading one CPU core to another?

It has nothing to do with how developers use the multiple cores.
DX is a small but significant chunk of code running interdependently of you game code.
Your game code interacts with it to get access to the GPU.

Are you seriously telling us until now Xbox One has been mostly using only 1 CPU core?

This isn't that hard, it has nothing to do with what code the developers run on the machine, its what happens when they ask DX to run something.

MS saying Xbox One will benefit means PR. Their tech demo is Forza running on PC with Titan Gfx. Seems like saying now because PC is low API too, it is easier to port. According to MS, is hardly a source without them proving it. According to MS Xbox One has hardware strong as PS4. and all those cloud bs and such.

Yeah the article is bull$#@!, posted before anything was even released.

Those 30% GPU boosts are real, direct relation to draw calls. Nothing else has access to the GPU except DX, so any performance there will significantly improve performance.

Less interesting is the 50% CPU performance thing, the actual CPU usage on the system reserved for DX is small, so 50% of small is just smaller.
This doesn't mean significant increases in performance of the CPU.
But what is important to take are form this is that the GPU is CPU BOUND in DX, freeing that up will absolutely have a performance boost on the Xbox One.

Again, I am not advocating this is some sort of miracle cure to allow it more power than the PS4, that will never happen, but anything that can make DX more efficient is welcome.

Originally Posted by Sajuuk Khar

Yeah I dunno Mynd, reading through the slides and what all those links say, it looks more like console efficiency gains are moving over to PC. There might be some gains to the X1, but that statement is mostly coming from MS, would need a 3rd party or detailed explanation on the precise gains X1 will have.

In terms of to the metal programming? Sure. In terms of removing the GPU being bound from the CPU. Thats significant.

Direct comprises of a lot of complex layers of abstraction, there is obviously the top layer, which is the interface a developer works with.

So:

Layer 1-> Developer sends a draw command, of a render state change to the GFX card via DX command.

Layer 2->Direct X does it's thing, on its own framework, in a prescribed way that hold the whole framework together

Layer 3->Drivers interact in a specific way with Layer 2, according to the development kits MS sent out to the likes of Nvidia, AMD etc

When Microsoft talk about running a thin layer to allow DX to talk to the Xbox One Hardware, its still in the prescribed manner that Layer 2 ask of it.
That layer 2, runs DX11 code in a way that MS first envisaged DX11 to work, incremental updates only add features to it, for example its likely they added support for ESRAM within in the drivers, opened up more direct routes to speical parts of the GPU.

But the core functions of that DX code, when you issue a "draw" command for example, is still ultimately run on the internal layer 2 framework, and if that framework is setup in such a way as to run on one CPU core, then thats where it will run.

It has nothing to do with how developers use the multiple cores.
DX is a small but significant chunk of code running interdependently of you game code.
Your game code interacts with it to get access to the GPU.

This isn't that hard, it has nothing to do with what code the developers run on the machine, its what happens when they ask DX to run something.

Yeah the article is bull$#@!, posted before anything was even released.

Those 30% GPU boosts are real, direct relation to draw calls. Nothing else has access to the GPU except DX, so any performance there will significantly improve performance.

Less interesting is the 50% CPU performance thing, the actual CPU usage on the system reserved for DX is small, so 50% of small is just smaller.
This doesn't mean significant increases in performance of the CPU.
But what is important to take are form this is that the GPU is CPU BOUND in DX, freeing that up will absolutely have a performance boost on the Xbox One.

Again, I am not advocating this is some sort of miracle cure to allow it more power than the PS4, that will never happen, but anything that can make DX more efficient is welcome.

In terms of to the metal programming? Sure. In terms of removing the GPU being bound from the CPU. Thats significant.

Dude. Last I heard you go on and on about Xbox One having secret sauce audio chip and PS4 not having any. That argument was more descriptive than this and turned out to be complete false.

Please source all your findings. You are applying all the benefit made out to be on PC explained specifically on PC slides to be same as Xbox One's benefit.

It is giving low level API access to PC, but X1 as we all know has this currently. This would not be benefiting X1 much.

..What does this matter? Xbox One doesn't really USE DirectX as an API anyway afaik. Doesn't it use its own custom API, just like the PS4/PS3 did? Just like the 360 as well?

Isn't this like saying that "OpenGL" is supported on PS4 but in real terms people are only ever using PSGL (Sony custom API)?

Yup.Xbox One has Direct3D 11.x.

x at the end stands for Xbox One. It is special set of API made for Xbox One specifically which I was saying all along.

They will update it to Direct3D 12.x, but that is simply different API than PC API. Benefits or different rendering features supported will go on it, but those will be ported to PS4 or anything anyways. I doubt both systems can even afford new rendering features anyways.

X1 already has low level API what does it matter that PC now has low level API too?

1. You can't apply benefits coming to PC on Xbox One when Xbox One already have those benefits.
2. Mynd make it sound like PS4 had mantle like API and Xbox One didnt. You quote a dev for that, but funny thing is. Long before, many were saying Xbox One doesnt need Mantle because it already has Mantle like API.

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