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AMD FX-6300 processor - worrying temperatures

Phaenius

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:01 AM

Phaenius

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Hi, I hope the gurus here can offer me some answers to this problem.

I do have an AMD FX-6300, MSI 970A-G46 motherboard, 8 GB Kingston DDR3-1600 MHz dual channel RAM (probably not important for this test) and Sapphire ATI HD4870 video card (also probably not important). What's really conclusive for this test is the cooling part. I do have an Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro Rev. 2 cooler on CPU, 2 92 mm fans on the side (intake), blowing towards the CPU, 1 92 mm fan on the rear (exhaust), 1 80 mm fan (intake) at the front and 1 80 mm fan (exhaust) at the top. I also have a 80 mm fan inside to cool a HDD (but this probably has little to no effect). All the 6 case fans are regulated by a build in controller, set to auto, it regulates from 7V to 12V (fans have different speeds, so I better gave the voltage instead). CPU and GPU have their own PWM connectors.

Now, the problem. MSI Control Center 2.5 (motherboard own monitoring software) reports temperatures of 52-53 degrees at idle and 65 degrees when tested with IntelBurn Test (probably an Intel tool, but I think it works with any processor, if not please tell me a suitable one for my processor), full burn, maximum stress. I selected this to emulate the stressful conditions inside a demanding game. I do not render anything, not work with applications demanding stressful situations, only video games (occasionally).

Now, my fan controller is faulty. Most of the times it works, but sometimes it shuts down by itself, only to randomly start again (have no idea why this happens, i thought it was a faulty connection, but I now think it's a hardware issue inside). When this happens, air flow is reduced inside the case and my CPU temperature raises to 56 (idle) to 72 (full load).

My question: What to do ? How much my processor will take this ? Assuming my controller works, still the temps are not correct, right ? I mean, around 60 degrees (on average between idle and full load). But what can I do ? I used the pre-applied paste on the CPU sink, I mounted the sink well. One annoying thing is that the CPU fan is sucking air that is coming from the power supply fan (120 mm). I don't know if that fan is blowing or sucking air. But one of the 92 mm side fans is blowing cool air on the CPU sink as well, so I could say that the heat sink is cooled by 2 fans (one by casualty).

So, should I be worried ? I couldn't mount the heat sink in any other way, due to motherboard and case design. Will a better and powerful sink lower the temps ? Shall I use a better sink paste ? I would really love to hear some answers to all this.

Phaenius

Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:31 AM

Phaenius

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Fan controller is working with interruptions. I mean, when it works, it can work perfectly for 5 straight days and controls the fans correctly. When it doesn't, fans are off and temperatures raise high. So, let's rule out the controller out of the equation, let's assume it works right (sometimes I pull and push some wires and start working again, but doesn't work all the time, it seems it has a mind of its own ).

I understand AMD hasn't released in their specs the maximum safe temperature for this processor. That's what I wanted to know. I read on various forums that anything beyond 60 is dangerous. Now, THIS IS THE TRICKY PART ! Which is 60 ? MSI's own reporting tool reports the temps above, AIDA64 Extreme Edition reports temperatures about 5 degrees cooler. Which is right ? And another thing. All temperature related software reports the temperature for processor way hotter than the temperature of each core. Cores are reported to have 23 degrees each one. I must say temperature in the room is hotter than this, so this surely is an error. How can this be possible ? CPU sensor probe is Fintek F71889A (ISA 480h).

puntoMX

Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:39 AM

puntoMX

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72ºC Is too high, should be under 62.5°C especially with that aftermarket cooler. I would not use PWM connections on the motherboard but just set at least the CPU fan on a 12V line of your PSU, and if possible, do the same with the top fan to suck the hot air out of the housing. If it makes too much noise, start thinking about a case that has 12cm fans (a case with 8cm fans is a bit of an outdated design unless it's a real small case ).

Phaenius

Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:55 AM

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It's a normal case, it has for instance five 5.25 bays, it has plenty of space. It does have two 80 mm fans and three 92 mm fans, this should be plenty. Fans are spinning quite fast (around 2800 RPM at full load), good silent fans, can spin at high revs without annoying much. So, problem shouldn't be the case. In fact, there are 3 (THREE) fans working for the CPU heat sink, one is the 92 mm cooler fan (blowing air from the inside towards the sink), one blows air from the outside directly to the sink (this is from the side of the case) and a third one, a 120 mm fan is sucking hot air from the vicinity of the CPU heat sink. So, 3 (quite big) fans are working for the CPU. As for PWM, common, it's the best regulating controller. Fans are spinning quite high, so this is not the problem. Connecting a CPU fan directly to 12V is a crime nowadays (considering the advance of technology, it would mean that all the cool monitoring and technological breakthrough were in vain). Top fan IS sucking hot air. I forgot. This is the 4 (forth) fan working for the CPU !

puntoMX

Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:24 PM

Connecting a CPU fan directly to 12V is a crime nowadays (considering the advance of technology, it would mean that all the cool monitoring and technological breakthrough were in vain).

I even set my video card fans at a fixed speed. No need to have them running at a lower frequency. I thought you had a faulty PWM controller on your mobo that was failing from time to time, so, it's living with a cooking CPU or get it on a 12v line. Did you install all AMD chipset drivers by the way?

Phaenius

Posted 17 June 2013 - 03:24 PM

puntoMX

Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:40 PM

puntoMX

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Now, my fan controller is faulty. Most of the times it works, but sometimes it shuts down by itself, only to randomly start again (have no idea why this happens, i thought it was a faulty connection, but I now think it's a hardware issue inside). When this happens, air flow is reduced inside the case and my CPU temperature raises to 56 (idle) to 72 (full load).

Okay, so that's not the onboard fan header controller then. I didn't think it was some external fan controller.

Phaenius

Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:01 AM

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Yes, there are several fan controllers inside the computer (CPU, GPU and PSU have their own fan regulators that work fine) and apart from those, there is the built-in fan controller, who regulates 6 fans. When this controller fails, hell break lose. I mean, computer works fine, but I monitor the temps on various components and it's no good. No good at all. HDDs are around 52-53 at idle, CPU around 60-70 (idle-load), GPU fan start working like a take-off airplane, NB chipset around 50 and so on. I am afraid to put stress on computer when case controller is off (like it is now for instance). I can only do browsing and that's pretty much it. I mean, computer won't shut down or sense anything wrong, but I'm afraid to put too much stress on it, it's bad as it is. I should buy a new controller, but I can't find anything that can regulate 6-7 fans, plus it will look ugly with the build in one disabled. And I don't really want to replace the case, I like this one, it's a good case, don't want to replace a working case (apart from the controller), just because it's built in controller fails.

But this is off-topic about the controller. I am aware something must be done regarding it, but my two questions remain. What is the safe temp for FX-6300 and which reporting tool is right ? The MSI Center or the AIDA64 ? AIDA reports lower temps by around 5 degrees. Again, the sensor probe is Fintek F71889A (ISA 480h). Anyone having an identical (or similar) processor ?

puntoMX

Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:32 PM

puntoMX

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TjMax for the FX-6300 is 70ºC when using it 24/7. 62.5ºC Is the upper "safe" level of the CPU. Use a program called Core Temp (don't look at TjMax there, it will say something over 80ºC), that one shows the CPU temperature and not the socket temperature. I don't have a FX-6300 on hand but these are the numbers AMD gave me.

bonestonne

Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:57 PM

So let me get this right...your motherboard is not controlling the fan speeds properly? Your terminology is confusing everyone here....

1) Make sure you're not using 3 pin fans on a PWM header and expecting them to work perfectly. I have PWM fans that don't even report their RPMs correctly on a PWM header on the motherboard.

2) Why on earth do you have so many fans in your system? I have a dual Xeon system, and 4 fans. 5 if I count the power supply, 7 if I include the GPU cooler. One little FX-6300 is not pushing the heat of my two Xeons, so you have a bigger problem.

Here's what you need to do:

1) When the temps report that they're rising, take off the side panel and put the back of your hand above the heatsink. You don't have to touch it, you will feel whether it's warm or not. If it's noticeably warm at a distance of 3-5cm (1-2 inches), then you have a big problem. You need to pull your heatsink and reapply TIM (Thermal Interface Material). I really like Innovation Cooling Diamond 7, I've been using it for a long time on my old machine and new one. It is extremely effective as far as TIM goes. Make sure your cooler is properly installed. All push pins are pressed firmly down and are seated properly, or the bolt thru mounting system is actually installed correctly. I had a machine come into work just today which had an i7-2600k and the stock cooler was never installed correctly on the motherboard. The TIM was visibly burned, and the customer is lucky the CPU still works. Make sure that your computer has proper ventilation and is not in a closed cabinet, and is dust free or regularly dusted in an outdoors environment.

2) Reduce the amount of fans in your system. Clearly you have too many, and it's not helping.

According to the website, despite their ridiculous chart, you should be using the mounting direction B for Intel CPUs. If you're not, then you're pushing hot air all over your case, and that doesn't help anything. 1 rear exhaust and 1 top exhaust fan (if the case has top exhaust). No side fans, and no intake fans. Block off the side panel openings as well. If your system continues to overheat, you likely have a faulty CPU or Cooler. The FX-6300 should be idling below 40C with the Freezer Pro R2 in a test bench setup (no additional fans, outside a case). While I firmly believe that Arctic Cooling makes some crappy CPU coolers, you shouldn't be seeing temps higher than 50C unless you're under a full load (80+ CPU %). I guess I would also check and make sure that the cooler is indeed working correctly and the heatpipes don't have a hole in them. There's a fun way to test this if you're feeling adventurous. Take it out, clean it off, and hold the base against your forehead for 15-20 seconds. That spot should be pretty cold to the touch, otherwise you have a bad cooler.

Also, I second using Core Temp to check temps, far more reliable than most other monitoring programs.

Phaenius

Posted 19 June 2013 - 05:20 AM

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punto

Thanks for the tmax and safe temp. As for Core Temp, it reports bogus data. First of all, it only reports the temps of the cores that, so far, no reporting software was able to correctly interrogate. Core Temp reports temps of 25 degrees on all of my cores. This is incorrect. Temperature inside my computer is around 35 degrees, so it's impossible (by pure physics laws) cores to be 10 degrees cooler than that, unless they have some sort of air conditioning, which is not the case. Even so, it's impossible cores to stay at 25 degrees and the socket twice as that.

So, I am still in the unclear. In understand FX-6300 is a popular processor. I can't imagine they haven't figure it out how to proper monitor the temps, after all it's important. Hotter temps will slowly decay the processor. They won't break it, but will slow the performance in time. Core temperature is reporting erroneous by all reporting software, socket is dubious. Basically, there are 4 CPU temps, one in the core, one for the whole processor (no idea what that means), one for the socket (also, no idea) and one externally measured, by applying a sensor on the heat sink (this is of course the temp of the heat sink and not the processor, but you can get a general idea about the whole situation). Motherboards may have different sensors I think, but they are more or less, the same thing for certain CPU sockets. In fact, main chipsets are bought from AMD and the rest of the components are somehow compatible. So, again, which probe is right ? I rule out the core temp (surely wrong), but what is the difference between the socket temperature and the whole CPU temperature ? For instance, now it says 25 core temp, 47 CPU temp and 53 AUX temp (?!?). Those are all CPU related, not the chipset. Motherboard chipset has its own sensor.

bonestonne

I thought I made myself clear. So, again, my motherboard IS WORKING CORRECTLY. Its the PC case fan controller that is working with interruptions. When it works ok, temps are lower (about 10 degrees), but still too high. When PC case controller is not working, it's like a volcano inside the computer and I am reluctant to use it. So, even with all those fans working at maximum rpm (again, strictly, there are 5 (FIVE) fans working FOR the CPU, 2 blowing cool air and 3 sucking hot air), temperatures are still high. Heat sink is correctly mounted, it's an Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro Rev. 2 cooler, it's a good cooler, I used its default thermal paste, they say it's ok. All fans are correctly installed. The PWM correctly, the 3 pins into their correct sockets.

Why do I need so many fans ? To cool, of course. I bought the case specifically with 5 built in fans, 2 blowing from the side, one blowing from the front, one sucking from the top and one sucking from the back. Later, I installed an additional one, to cool down an additional HDD. I don't really get what's wrong in having too many fans. They are basically aiding the air flow. So, I have just one more fan additionally then you, where's the problem. There are now cases with 240 mm fans, there you are, instead of one of those babies, running at low speed, I have two 92 mm fans, spinning higher and basically you have the same result.

Side panel is off by default. I mean the case side panel. When I put the panel on the case, temps are even hotter, so I better leave it without it. I don't have access (or easy access) to the computer. It's mounted in a tight space (yes, it should have plenty of air around it, but not for me to work on it), so it would take a lot of effort from me to extract it from where it is and even so, cables won't reach the working place. Basically, I can't check (or easily check) what you said about feeling the temperature with the back of my palm,

Reducing the number of fans ? That is like reducing the number of cylinders of a car and still expect the same power from the engine. I really don't get it.

As for the thermal paste, again, I used the pre-applied cooler's thermal paste. They say it's a good paste. I am too clumsy to apply the paste from syringe or by brush, so I stick with the default pre-applied. I figure Arctic Cooling put a better paste than the default one. They say it's MX-4 if I read correctly.

CPU is correctly installed. I mean, you have to be a moron to install it wrong. You put the CPU in the socket, lower the lever, Put the heat sink and screw the screws until you meet some resistance. That's it. It's in the mounting manual of the cooler. Intel CPUs are different in terms of heat sink mounting, but with AMD it's simpler.

Again, I am NOT using Intel CPU, don't know why do you insist about it.

As for the forehead touch, that is way too erratic. Take it off, clean it and than what ? This could take 1 minute or 2 minutes, plenty enough time for heat sink base to cool down. This is stupid. Not to mention humans react different to heat, it's not like we have a built in display that shows the temperatures. It's hot. How hot is hot ?

If Arctic Cooling is "crap" (I paid 33 dollars on it, that with discount), what about the stock cooler ? I don't know what Xeon is (let alone dual Xeon), but FX-6300 is no "little". You should try and put more consideration into people's money, not everything bellow high end is crap. In fact, I would say that everything used bellow it's designed specs is crap. The act and the idea itself.

Phaenius

Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:23 AM

Phaenius

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You are right in one thing, it;s not applying. Before asking questions, I test everything I can that can cross my mind. Activate and de-activate fans, case with side door shut or open, even front 5.25 / 3.5 bay doors and rear brackets on and/or off. Coolest temp is with as many fans working at highest rpm and as little case obstructions as possible. That i tested in my situation. I wouldn't have asked, but I upgraded processor recently and with my old Phenom 9950, temps were reasonable, with the same fans.

What's really annoying is that I cannot tell what temps are right, to start working from there. Some report 25 degs, some 45 and some 50. 25 is way off, I can tell you that.

bonestonne

Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:28 PM

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Okay, my Dual Xeon E2620 system has a pair of 95W processors. By your math, and copying your build, having a 95W CPU yourself, I would require 10 fans to keep my system cool, when in fact my temps are lower than yours with less fans comparatively. If I'm doing something wrong, maybe you should give every customer I've built a computer for a call, and let them know that I've been doing it wrong all along. I've had two custom computers come back in 3 years. One had a fan bearing start to go after 2.5 years of being built (a byproduct of cheap fans), and one had a failing hard drive, which was the result of 1) the customer being the heaviest chainsmoker you'll ever meet and 2) a poorly kept, very dusty and filthy machine.

I'm giving you some very solid numbers, 40C or below should be your idle. The "Intel vs AMD" cooling methods are the biggest loads of bullcrap I've ever heard of. Here's why...

1) Look at the lay out of the motherboard in terms of RAM, PCI Slots, VRMs, etc. Is it different between Intel and AMD? No.

2) What does heat do, according to the laws of physics? Rise.

3) What has made gullible PC enthusiasts still believe the fact that the two things that inherently operate the same way? The lack of listening to someone who knows better.

I dare you to take my advice, remove some fans, use the motherboard controller for your fans (be sure to enable Q-Fan in the BIOS/EFI, and rotate your cooler to a proper orientation that would adequately support front to rear airflow. Also, you should remove the cooler and reapply TIM. Why? Because you sound just like all the **** kids I spend half of my days repairing computers for. Too much TIM is a bad thing. Too little is a bad thing. I don't think you know anything about building computers other than putting parts in a box. Why? Because you haven't done any real troubleshooting yourself, such as plugging the fans into motherboard for a while and see what happens. I would never trust a fan controller in the case to handle any fans in my computer for the simple reason that they're bundled with the case because they're cheap and the company can get them easily in bulk quantities. Clearly, it's not working out for you, yet you insist on continuing to use it.

I mean, while I'm on a roll here, why isn't the side panel on your case? That severely disrupts airflow, so for all you know, that might be part of the problem.

You most likely have a bad CPU, or a bad cooler, or the cooler isn't capable of dissipating 95W CPU heat. If your old CPU worked fine, and the new runs really hot, I fail to see why this thread keeps growing, if you clearly stated the issue. You need to be a bit more proactive about your problem because it has nothing to do with the fan controller.

I would bet my $15/hour job as a computer repair tech that I could fix your issues in 15 minutes if the machine were in front of me.

Oh, and I hold your comparison to a challenge. Give me a 1976 Corvette and a 1982 Buick Grand National. I removed two cylinders and made more power.

Phaenius

Posted 19 June 2013 - 11:49 PM

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My only problem in this case bonestonne is you and your arrogance. And that's a very easy fix for this. Ignore you. You can take your 15 dollars per hour and stick it. You're no use for me, so far I only heard insults or crap advice from you (like putting the sink on your forehead, etc.). I won't insist anymore. All those products I've been using are not the cheapest, in fact beyond the middle specs range, yet you rush to catalog everything as crap, basically denying the work of professionals, who designed and tested the products. So far, in all your infinite wisdom, you haven't thought of figure it out if the temps are really there (could be erroneously reported) or to even ask me what are the temperatures inside my room. And those are basic things. Without a proper air conditioning system, you can't have lower temperatures on the CPU than the ambient temperature. And that's what the mighty (and praised) Core Temp is saying to me. CPU cores' temperatures are lower than room temperature. Cool, huh ?
You say I haven't tested, removing fans, closing door, etc. That means you didn't read my last post. A PC case isn't exactly a vacuum machine. Fans are not that powerful and air not directed through special ducts for the door to stay shut. FYI, I did tested. Temperatures are higher with door closed, because the two 92 mm fans at the side have just a very little air intake on the side panel. And case fans controllers are not cheap. A 6-7 way, automatic control, LCD screen controller may go around 70-80 dollars, if you buy it separately. Tell me a motherboard that can control at least 3 case fans (one at the side, one at the front and one at the back). But you need one at the top usually as well. The real knowledge is to work with reasonable budget and stay within specs, otherwise I would have fitted a freon cooling system on the CPU. Take that, heat !

bonestonne

Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:03 AM

Well, outside of a liquid nitrogen cooled overclocking rig, I'm not aware of any machines at all that are capable of running below ambient temps.

Take for example the ambient temperature of my house. 73F/22.8C, cooled by a very well maintained central air conditioning system. My CPUs idle at 36C and that is considered extremely cool for a pair of E2620's that are less than 4 inches apart physically, with two coolers with even less space apart than that.

I may very well be arrogant, but you're simply ignorant. I gave you a lot of advice, but instead of doubting that maybe, just maybe you have bad hardware in your computer, you simply tell me I'm not listening. Who's not listening? No, I'm not going to comb through your posts because they aren't well thought out and are poorly organized and difficult to follow because you think you know so much. If your case is so special, why don't you tell us what it is, or better yet, post a picture of your computer as it is right now? I'd love to see it. I'll post a picture of mine too if you think that would be fair. Besides, your case has so many 80mm fans, why is that? 120-140mm is the norm, and rightfully so.

The products I use certainly are not the cheapest either, but Arctic Cooling CPU heatsinks? What is this, 2002? There are so many better choices, and even better, they're in the same price range.

submix8c

Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:24 AM

submix8c

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@bonestonne - give it up.
Several of us "arrogant" (knowledgeable) members have tried with Phaenius before and no longer respond.http://www.msfn.org/...igy-sound-card/
...and insisted we were WRONG!
(...until he found out we were RIGHT - see my "dumb as a rock Sound Engineer" posts and his last post.)
I suggest you do it as well. After all, you don't want to get "reported".

bphlpt

Posted 20 June 2013 - 12:07 PM

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@submix8c, Thanks for reminding me that this is the same guy. How could I have forgotten?

Based on some of his previous posts about his prior sound issues, it is extremely unlikely that he will ever pull his computer out of wherever he has it wedged to do or check anything at all inside his rig, such as reapply his thermal paste, check for any obstruction or anything rubbing on a fan, check for a failed fan, etc.

He is right that it is a physical impossibility for the registered temperature to read lower than ambient temperature if the software (Core temp) and hardware (temp sensor) are operating correctly. So one of them is wrong, but which one? Phaenius, per his usual approach, seems to want to blame the software, even though it is well respected, is highly recommended, and has been suggested for use by several members here, since that way he doesn't have to drag his rig out and take it apart and possibly leave something disconnected when he puts it back together, as he has done in the past. So we can suggest other software for him to try, or he can just uninstall and re-install Core temp in case something just got borked somehow. But this really sounds like a hardware issue, after all he admits that part of the hardware problem is an intermittently faulty fan controller, and I truly believe that the temperature sensing issue is hardware related as well. I would start with cleaning (he hates that word, LOL) the CPU and reapplying good thermal paste as a start and closely checking all the wiring to all the fans and the controller. Since he knows the fan controller is iffy, I would also go along with bonestonne's suggestion to minimize the number of fans running and only use the on-board controller temporarily. I don't have any problem with Phaenius's assertion that more fans are better, within reason, but I feel it is more important to first be able to get correct and accurate temperature readings before then trying to figure out how to get the best/lowest temperature. After all, if your temperature readings are not accurate, how will you really know whether whatever else you are doing is helping or not?

But if he is not willing to do any hardware tests or modifications as we are suggesting to help him solve his problem. then I am out of here.