I'd also like to add Beck, Mr Bungle, Secret Chiefs 3 and Rage Against the Machine to that list.

I've said for a long time now that you can almost narrow it down to and pinpoint the year "Rock" died and I'd say that was about 1996 when, even though no innovation was going on, the energy pretty much died. It was odd that that was the year Bob Guccioni, Jr. quit as publisher of SPIN magazine and it was an entirely new crew at that magazine and none of the many things, some of them very brainy, that the old SPIN published there was no place for with their new crew. From there on it was just industry slop just as the the recording and fashion industries dictated it aimed at the 13 to 20 age group as advertising to push their new shit. The contrast was very sharp and nothing with a hint of intelligence had any place in that publication. Since then it's been nothing unremarkable fluff from Paris Hilton to Pink and the generic badass motherfuckers such as "Nu-Metal" and "all-new Hip Hop" for real guys. 100% shit that pushed a new batch of nothings but who sold well.The ridiculous world of "Rock 'n Rap" could continue to be extended and bled for more cash until it passed over into video games which is what we're seeing now. What better route to take with the piled-up output of all those years of crap?

Yeah, I'll have to agree with that 1996 statement. Growing up around 1999 to 2002 couldn't have been worse. 2000 was undoubtedly the WORST year in music history. Brit pop, Metal Rap, the teeny boy-pretty boy punk was just about to peak - yeah remember that shit? Blink 182, Sum 41. Ugh. Barf.

Compared to the early 90s when rock was having it's second "golden era" since the 1960s, the early 2000s were the first truly negative revolution. It was the revolution of big business. But looking at the 90s, one must realize that it was a golden era in many ways but in other ways not as much. For one, the spirit of rock was bigger than ever. Even in the 60s alternative music never quite got it's place. Yeah, you had the hippy bands, but as Zappa said, the majority of that was just a fad. Real alternative music of the 60s could be boiled down The Mothers, King Crimson, even Zeppelin although a blues rock band held an alternative mindset. In the 90s having Kurt Cobain as the era's Dylan was the equivalent of Zappa/Mothers outshining the Beatles or Dylan in the 60s. In that sense, I'll always hold the opinion that the 90s were the golden age of the alternative and the experimental. In the 90s it wasn't the hippies that ruled, it was the freaks.

However, the "90s" were really like the 60s in reverse. 1989 to 1995 basically. While the 60s started off with commercial pop and ended in one giant freak out, the 90s began off the heels of the torturous 80s in a massive freak outage and ended in an even more torturous late 90s/2000s orgy of commercialism. The difference here is that when the big cheeses realized hair metal was dead they began marketing the alternative, essentially "pussying" it up. What we got today is shit like emo and indie and the general "alt" genre, which truly is anything but alternative. In fact whatever people call "alt" today is nothing short of mainstream tripe.

So in essence, while the 90s brought a refreshing wind to rock, the musical quality and sheer quantity that was present in the 1960s was slightly lacking. For one, I'd wager Nirvana trounced almost everything in the 60s in terms of well, everything. They were possibly the best band to exist with perhaps the exception of the Beatles (although I find Nirvana waaay more interesting, both musically and intellectually). You got Primus and Ween acting like new Mothers' of Invention. However, Tool has never captivated me for instance, because they never seem to go anywhere with their music. The Melvins were surprisingly great. Alice in Chains was good but an overrated band that seemed all the more angsty and stereotypicall "grunge" than Nirvana ever was. Everyone I know who was around back then has stated that Nirvana was just a heap of fun, as is contrary to their popular image today as being an "angst" or (the first) emo band..

Nowadays I feel that music tries to be something alternative and intelligent but simply fails. Radiohead no matter how many people claim that they're the greatest progressive/alternative band I just can't like. They simply don't rock. The Mars Volta is like King Crimson but without the songs. There's just no catch, no memorable riffs or melodies or even structure. Compare all of Frances the Mute or Amputechture to Crimson's One More Red Nightmare and see which wins.

On the other hand indie just plain sucks. It's like The Beatles without the Beatles. While I appreciate that it's a raw, honest musical statement, it has no honor. There's nothing that grabs me and says listen. Most of the time it's just noise and happy uninteresting melodies. Not to mention the extreme pretension surrounding it. I saw a few indie bands play at my university's Fine Arts party and literally everyone who attented the gigs was dressed like Andy Warhol, fit with oversized glasses, thick beards, tight beige shirts, and plaid. The bands of course couldn't even perform in a direct honest fashion. Instead they persisted to sing at the ceiling while showing off their awful power chording.

Of course then there's the most pathetic of all, the emo phenomenon. Hey, emo boys are cute, but that's all they got going for them. It's like grunge but for wimps.

Hopefully the 2010s will bring forth of revolution like the early 90s had.

Recently John Mellencamp wrote an article, I think I read it on the Huffington Post.Anyway he had a lot to say about how the marketing and distribution of popular music had taken a nasty turn since the mid 90s. It is about the money now, and not about the music.This is now one of the reasons why most of the hot top-selling artists on the Billboard chart are virtually unrecognizable to anyone over 25 year old. The attrition rate is alarming because everything is 'flash-in-the-pan' popular. Nickelodeon and Disney have airspace to fill, BAM, we get the Jonas Brothers and Miley Cyrus.

The way rock music survives is by periodically cutting itself away from all the appropriation that goes on in our mass-market culture. The hippies were pointing it out and complaining about it in the mid 60s, it was what fueled the punk scene, the alternative scene, the grunge scene, ..the music may start to sound the same after a while, but that's because so much of it is being made.

Disaffected suburban kids in garage bands don't tend to write opuses. They bang out their angst on guitars and drums like their dads did. Sometimes they do something catchy and it gets played on the radio. Once in a while something great bubbles to the surface. Beck, The White Stripes, The Flaming Lips, ..I still hear new bands that I think are unique and innovative. But it's all basically simple fun music and it recycles with every generation. New listeners, new bands.That's rock and roll music.

Recently John Mellencamp wrote an article, I think I read it on the Huffington Post.Anyway he had a lot to say about how the marketing and distribution of popular music had taken a nasty turn since the mid 90s. It is about the money now, and not about the music.This is now one of the reasons why most of the hot top-selling artists on the Billboard chart are virtually unrecognizable to anyone over 25 year old. The attrition rate is alarming because everything is 'flash-in-the-pan' popular. Nickelodeon and Disney have airspace to fill, BAM, we get the Jonas Brothers and Miley Cyrus.

The way rock music survives is by periodically cutting itself away from all the appropriation that goes on in our mass-market culture. The hippies were pointing it out and complaining about it in the mid 60s, it was what fueled the punk scene, the alternative scene, the grunge scene, ..the music may start to sound the same after a while, but that's because so much of it is being made.

Disaffected suburban kids in garage bands don't tend to write opuses. They bang out their angst on guitars and drums like their dads did. Sometimes they do something catchy and it gets played on the radio. Once in a while something great bubbles to the surface. Beck, The White Stripes, The Flaming Lips, ..I still hear new bands that I think are unique and innovative. But it's all basically simple fun music and it recycles with every generation. New listeners, new bands.That's rock and roll music.

Based on that, I don't expect it to evolve too much.

..And that's the way I like it.

Exactly. It is the radio and industry which changed, not humanities ability to write and play great music.Flaming Lips is a good example of great new music. At War with the Mystics is an excellent album, and perfect example of what Pop music should be. Simple, yet interesting and catchy, instantly hummable, always enjoyable. Not bland pap.

This this the first Phish conversation I've heard on here, actually. I would probably consider them my 2nd favorite currently. And yes, YEM is a fucking amazing composition. Phish have Zappa influence and have even covered Peaches multiple times.

I would recommend these as starters:For live (99% of the time preffered over studio by phans):A Live One

Live Phish Vol. 11

And studio: Junta

Billy Breathes

_________________"If you wind up with a boring, miserable life because you listened to your mother, your Dad, your priest, to some guy on television, to any of the people telling you how to do your shit, then you DESERVE it."

Yes, A Live One is the most logical starting point. You made all solid suggestions there. Personally Story of the Ghost is my favorite studio album though, and Slip, Stitch and Pass deserves a strong mention in the Live releases catagory. In terms of the Live releases series, the island run is totally classic, but actually my favorite was considered a weak release by most phans which I don't get. Live 5.

Phish was definately my favorite band before I discovered Zappa, largely through finding out what a big influence he was on them. Then I came to see Phish as like Zappa for kids! Not to take away form them at all! More Zappa related Phish trivia...In 94 they decided to don a musical costume for Halloween, the concept, get phans to vote on an album they would perform in its entirety. The vote rolls in and guess what, the winner? Joe's Garage. Phish announces they will not perform Joe's Garage based on the fact that it is too offensive!!! The audience gets selection number two, the White Album instead. Also, Trey wrote a really cool blurb for Rolling Stone a while back about seeing Frank in 88. Was a very nice story I think. Part of an article on famous musicians writing about their idols.

Music is not dead. What's dead is the crap the music industry feeds to the masses. Profit is the new art. Success is in imitation. The money is so huge that there can be no chances. Software creates the winning formula for hits. Hits make money. Music promotes everything but music. You don't have to write/play/sing/be creative/care. Strike a pose and develop a "look". The mindless will follow throwing cash like roses. Welcome to the Machine.

Somewhere along the line the masses even forgot what music sounded like. Mp3 was supposed to be a convenience like microwave food. Now, almost nobody knows how to cook anymore so almost nobody knows what food should taste like. Great sounding music reproduction that could bring a tear to the eye because it sounded so FREAKIN' good that was pumped out through big speakers from cool looking electronics has been replaced by harmonically trimmed, over compressed, clean the wax out of your ears little cutesy music players. But they hold thousands of crappy sounding songs! If it ain't that it's over driven "what the hell is wrong with you?" autos posing as mobile sub woofers.

Companies bitch about piracy and whine that CD sales are down, but ignore that in the hurry to milk the cash cow they stick 3 or 4 good tracks on a CD and fill the rest with crap. Then they blame the kids because they only want a few tracks. These same vultures silence the places where you could once go to hear what somebody sounded like, albeit in crappy Mp3 format, before plunking down the cash to buy a CD (which never came down in price like the record companies promised it would when the medium was new). No, you lay your money down and take your chances. This ain't Musical Chairs; this is musical 3 Card Monte! You'll always feel cheated because you always will be!

But, out there Music still lives! I still hear it on satellite radio. I still find it at sites like Pandora. There are still the people who will share a good thing and not keep a good band some personal secret like a bizarre fashion accessory. Music is NOT dead. It's hiding from the Hunters who want to trap it, tame it, breed it, and sell it! But, to those who still believe in it and keep searching for it, it will allow itself to be found. Someday, the people who ruined so much of the art we loved will have their turn to pay.

_________________My new purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

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