Ricks, Robert (Bob)

ORAL HISTORY OF ROBERT (BOB) RICKS
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
April 26, 2013
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is April the 26th, 2013, and I am at the home of Bob "Robert" Ricks...
MR. RICKS: Bob is fine...
MR. MCDANIEL: Bob is fine... here in Oak Ridge. Mr. Ricks thank you for taking time to talk with us.
MR. RICKS: You're quite welcome. I appreciate the opportunity.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let's start at the beginning. Why don't you tell me where you were born and raised, something about your upbringing.
MR. RICKS: Okay, I was born and raised in Port Arthur, Texas, and attended all my schooling there except for college education. I graduated high school in 1957 and went to college at Lamar University in Beaumont, Texas. And I didn't really have any inkling that I would get a post graduate degree until one of my instructors, who read my personality quite well, angered me a little bit by saying that, well, I didn't need to think about going to college and all that because he didn't think that I would be that good of a college student.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. RICKS: And, naturally, you know, being of the male sex, I took that as a challenge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And that's what he wanted to happen.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And, so, he helped me in getting accepted to college and I began to get curious as I neared my graduation date about post-graduate studies.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, when you were in high school did you have any specific interests. I mean, anything that you're particularly interested in studying?
MR. RICKS: Biology. And, so, I set out in about 1956 with the intent of getting a post graduate education. And he explained to me the options I had, what he thought I should do and so, I -- with this man's assistance - I applied to Texas A&M University to do graduate studies there. And he issued some more challenges because I guess he, again, read that if he challenged me, I would show him that I could do it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And, so, I entered Texas A&M with the intent of obtaining a master's degree. And, since I liked biology, I pursued a master's degree in zoology.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, did you... was your bachelor's degree in biology?
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. RICKS: And, I -- with his challenges, I discovered that if I really put my mind to it, I could get good grades and I did. I graduated with a master's degree with a B+ average.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And I had some friends at Texas A&M that began to ask me if I was going to go on and get a Ph.D. I wasn't quite sure what that required of me, and so I looked into that very thoroughly and applied and got accepted with a fellowship type of assistance and began to pursue a Ph.D. degree. And when I got into that program for a doctorate degree, Texas A&M at that time, and still today, are very, very big on providing educational activities for persons who like the biology/zoology line. But they add a certain program in with that and that deals with the effects of radiation on animals and plants.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. RICKS: And so I began to pursue the... the radiation area for research and I found it to be ...
MR. MCDANIEL: This was in the... this was in the late ‘50s...
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: ...early ‘60s? So that was something relatively new...
MR. RICKS: Not only to me, but to everyone that was pursuing graduate degrees or doctorates degree. And so I got fascinated by a field of study that was not offered at too many colleges at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And I, again, got challenged by someone at A&M, regarding what I would do with that degree. And I got the same kind of challenge that it requires a lot of intensive study.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And I did research on the effects of radiation of pregnant female rats that gave me the background that -- at that time I didn't realize it would work out this way was of interest to some people here in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. RICKS: And by that, I mean that I had an acquaintance in graduate school who contacted me the first year that I got into the graduate program there for my doctorate. And he told me of an organization that I might be interested in. An organization that... that offered summer fellowships. And this man was teaching at Maryville College.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. RICKS: And in the summer of '67, being a junior member of the staff where I was working, which was going to be... Arkansas State University's where I had my first job.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. RICKS: And he asked me if I had a job for the summer '67. Being a junior member of the university staff- I did not.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And so, he said, “Well, let me give you this address and you write to a company called Oak Ridge Associated Universities”, which at that time was ORINS...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, which was the Oak Ridge Institute for Nuclear Studies.
MR. RICKS: And so I applied. There were 26 persons who applied for this one position in the medical division of ORINS. And because -- and only because -- I had this experience in the effects of radiation on animal life, I got accepted and had a three month appointment here in Oak Ridge. What I had pursued in my Ph.D. degree research was of great value to my getting this position.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now this was... You said this was '67?
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay...
MR. RICKS: I completed my degree requirements in '66, and the degree was conferred in January ‘67.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Had you ever been to Oak Ridge before you came?
MR. RICKS: Didn't know what Oak Ridge was.
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) What were your first impressions?
MR. RICKS: First impression was: There are things besides the swampy Gulf coast.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And here are mountains, which I'm trying to remember, I may have seen a mountain one time before this.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? (laughs)
MR. RICKS: So, I came here and did my three month appointment and left – returned to my teaching at Arkansas State University. And I thought that I would probably never see Oak Ridge again. However, I found out I was not going to have a summer position in '69...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: ... and so I contacted the group at ORINS here that I had worked with two summers before, and they told me that the deadline for applying for the research position had passed.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. RICKS: And I did something that was not like my upbringing. I told the physician that I had worked with that, well, if the deadline has passed, why don't you push some buttons for me and get me in to continue the research I had done ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: ... at ORINS two years before. And, lo, and behold, two weeks later I got a letter from them and I had been accepted into the summer of 1969 research program.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Who was the physician? Do you mind saying?
MR. RICKS: The physician Dr. Edwards, as I recall, but that's not the physician that I ended up working with. That second summer I was here, I met a physician by the name of Clarence Lushbaugh and he had a grant from NASA to study ways to determine the disabling effects of radiation on astronauts.
MR. MCDANIEL: Hmm!
MR. RICKS: You may recall that it was in '69 that the Apollo space program was in full bloom and they were going to the moon.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And so, I got the position with Dr. Lushbaugh and my job was to work with the individuals in the computer science program here at O.R.A.U.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: ... to determine a way to predict that an individual, say, who was trapped due to some kind of failure...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: ... trapped in the Van Allen radiation belt and how would we know -- how would NASA know -- if the individuals were incapacitated...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. RICKS: ... in the space craft and were they able to get back. And the head of the computer science program at O.R.A.U. and I worked on developing a system which would allow one to measure the incapacitating features of whole-body radiation and the disabling effects caused by radiation exposure that could, if the doses were high enough...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. RICKS: But we needed to find out what would actually happen and how would you be able to measure this.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And there were several patients in the medical division at O.R.A.U. who were getting total-body radiation therapy because this was, as I recall at that time, the only place in the United States that was using total-body radiation to treat certain types of leukemia.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And it involved a system of measuring the onset and severity of radiation-induced nausea and vomiting. And that, that can certainly be incapacitating to the astronauts.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. RICKS: And there were some patients getting this radiation therapy who were in the early stages of their disease ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. RICKS: ... and volunteered to assist by allowing us to measure the effects of just how incapacitated people could become.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MR. RICKS: And it involved a system of measuring the time-to-onset of nausea/vomiting, the severity of the nausea and vomiting and the associated incapacitating effects. The procedure called "pulmonary impedance" where you measured the breathing changes, and used the information to predict when that incapacitation is going to occur and measure how impacting it was on the individual's ability to perform.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And it was all based on changing... changes, rather, in respiratory patterns.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Huh!
MR. RICKS: If you think about how your breathing changes when you are nauseated and subsequently vomiting...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: I don't know of any individual who has never vomited.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: You tend to begin to take deep breaths and then, as you get nearer and nearer to the vomiting episode, you change your breathing pattern to even deeper breaths. And finally, you begin vomiting and ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: ... and you don't breathe when you're vomiting.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And so we could onset and severity through this system of pulmonary impedance technology.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow!
MR. RICKS: And that was then to be used by our research and NASA by attaching chest electrodes to the astronauts to where that same phenomena could be measured in the crew on board the space craft.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let me ask you something: Is the results of that study, are they different than radiation-induced vomiting or any other kind?
MR. RICKS: Nope, there's no difference at all. Everybody goes through the same pattern.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. RICKS: But you just have to measure it and you can then say at a certain point in time, the individual has got five minutes before they become incapacitated ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow...
MR. RICKS: ... and vomit. And, of course, they're all in breathing gear on the space craft...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure!
MR. RICKS: ...and you don't want your astronauts vomiting into their breathing gear...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. RICKS: And, so, that was my first experience in doing any research in that regard. And not only did I learn a lot, I also learned that the patients were very, very cooperative because they knew that by volunteering -- and no one participated unless they volunteered to assist in this program -- they all felt like they were making a contribution to science and so they participated based upon that knowledge.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, that was your summer of '69; that's what you did that summer?
MR. RICKS: Yes. Well, no, what happened was, I got accepted to continue the research on looking at the effects on certain blood cell types and the pulmonary stuff was something that was done after the summer ended because that summer '69 was when I met Dr. Lushbaugh.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And he offered me a job. One year appointment to help in the development of this impedance measurement.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And, so that was a one year appointment only because the funding from NASA was on a yearly basis.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. So, you stayed?
MR. RICKS: So, I stayed and continued that research until the patient treatment program was cut off by the DOE due to costs being expensive, as you might imagine. However, the primary reason was due to the fact that radiation did not extend life any more than conventional therapy.
MR. MCDANIEL: Are you talking about the whole program or just your project? The whole ORINS?
MR. RICKS: There was a major study done by NASA and DOE and O.R.A.U. and the outcome of that showed that the survival rates from the standard type of therapy, which was using chemical studies, and the radiation was, you know, separate from that, and it was very expensive to do the studies using radiation.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. RICKS: And so, DOE decided to terminate the program and so, here I was without a job anymore.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. RICKS: And I was all set to leave Oak Ridge and I had a job offer at ... to work in Los Alamos on some related material.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And so, that was all coming to an end and I was set to move to New Mexico and the Medical Division was going to close. And Dr. Lushbaugh had an idea of not allowing all the trained staff who had worked on various programs within the Medical Division, but rather to retain those individuals. And he and Roger Cloutier, who was a health physicist at O.R.A.U., had an idea to work on developing a program which would continue to study the effects of radiation on all biological systems and physiological systems. And I played a very minor role in the development of a program that became known as REAC/TS or the Radiation Emergency Assistance Center Training Site. And I made a decision which was the best decision I've ever made in my life, not to go to New Mexico but to stay on here in Oak Ridge to work in REAC/TS program. I felt a lot of gratitude toward Lushbaugh because he allowed me to stay here and be the day-to-day manager of REAC/TS. And that allowed me to not have to move, to again assist in development of REAC/TS as a program which provided emergency medical services to individuals in the local area -- in providing assistance to them in the event of a radiation emergency. I jumped on that very quickly, still not knowing the magnitude of the benefit that that would bring to me.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And so, I accepted that management position and Lushbaugh chose me to be the REAC/TS manager because I had a lot of interest in radiation effects and I had teaching experience at Arkansas State University. He could use me to manage the program and that freed up a physician to not have to manage the program because radiation accidents are quite rare...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, of course.
MR. RICKS: And he didn't have to sit over there and manage that program, he could continue on with his medical interests.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: Did you know Dr. Lushbaugh?
MR. MCDANIEL: No, I didn't.
MR. RICKS: He was quite a guy. Very stern. And he allowed me to go from managing the program to become the assistant director based on the fact that if he ever caught me trying to practice medicine without a license and without training, or make any medical decisions -- which I knew better not to do that -- that I would just stay on as the assistant director. MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. RICKS: ... and DOE provided the necessary funding to pay for that space to be completed construction-wise and I think it was about $800,000...
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. RICKS: ... to build the facility called REAC/TS. And, so, here I was associated now with a program that I felt would have a long life span and that proved to be true. Since it still exists today. And my job was to manage the whole program and to develop training courses to teach physicians, nurses and health physicists -- to teach them how to manage radiation emergencies.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. RICKS: So, I accepted that and along with Dr. Lushbaugh and several others we began to develop training courses and to make sure that the facility was properly staffed and equipped as an emergency medical treatment unit.
MR. MCDANIEL: For radiation?
MR. RICKS: For radiation accidents only.
MR. MCDANIEL: And it was on-site at the hospital?
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yes.
MR. RICKS: And so that's why the second emergency department exists at Methodist Medical Center. And the program caught on very quickly and the training went from one or two courses to 10 or 12 courses a year. And that was very challenging. I had a staff of eight or nine working with me. And that really took off and we became nationally known and soon thereafter, became internationally known. There were only, at the time REAC/TS opened, only two other facilities in the world that offered training and emergency medical assistance...
MR. MCDANIEL: Let me ask you this: During this, this was all... REAC/TS was a program under O.R.A.U.? Is that correct? Was it a part of O.R.A.U.?
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. That's what I was thinking. Yes.
MR. RICKS: And so, the program being now the third program to be in existence worldwide began a partnership so-to-speak, with the other two centers. One was in France. The other was in the Soviet Union. So, that started some training that took two or three of us out of the country every now and then. And when I say, "out of the country," I mean that we would participate in providing training with those individuals in those two countries and making sure we were all on the same page in taking care of accidents.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let me ask you a question. Let me stop you right there. Okay, so you're very busy with the training aspect. How often did you use the emergency assistance aspect of it?
MR. RICKS: Rarely.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. Can you give me an example of something that might have happened?
MR. RICKS: Yes. One of the early examples of radiological emergency in this area dealt with, first of all, the follow-up of the Y-12 accident.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And we began to provide physical exams and things of that nature -- the medical staff that we instigated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. RICKS: And then there was a...
MR. MCDANIEL: When you refer to the Y-12 accident, we're talking about the one that took place in '58.
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And we began to follow those individuals with regard to their health.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And then another accident that comes to mind is ... an individual -- their physician -- called REAC/TS and wanted some assistance for a patient that this man had. And the physician had a patient who had gone to ... let's see... As I recall, the individual either purchased or inherited a safe. And unbeknownst to him, there was some material inside that little safe that contained an old device that could be used for medical testing and it worked on the basis that it had some radioactive material in it. The individual who obtained it now took it home and unbeknownst to him, it was leaking and it contaminated him.
MR. MCDANIEL: He started getting sick.
MR. RICKS: And he was not getting real sick but there was a concern that, What was he going to do?
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: Another example would be from time to time the Oak Ridge police would be called upon to intercept a robbery in progress. Someone breaking in to a facility that -- not necessarily a government facility -- just breaking into a facility with the intent of stealing something. And there was concern that did the individuals -- the police become contaminated, did the thieves become contaminated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Because there were quite a number of private laboratories that had radioactive materials.
MR. RICKS: Exactly.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly.
MR. RICKS: Or they may have been transferring something radioactive from one facility to another and there would be a traffic accident.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. RICKS: The police would be called and as soon as they were called, we were called.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. RICKS: So that was typical of what the early responses were.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Well, in a town like Oak Ridge, that did what it did, you know, whether you had, you know, a hundred calls or no calls it was still prudent to have REAC/TS there.
MR. RICKS: Yes. Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: You never knew.
MR. RICKS: Exactly. And it demonstrated that the DOE was protecting the citizens of the area in the event of something happening. So.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: Then we began to respond to accidents outside the country. And went to -- it took me to several different countries which had experienced accidental radiation exposure or contamination or both. And one or more of us would go to that country and provide assistance to the medical community, etc. And the intent also was to work with the International Atomic Energy Agency in developing more, additional facilities like REAC/TS, like the facility in the Soviet Union and like the one in...
MR. MCDANIEL: France.
MR. RICKS: France.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. RICKS: And we participated in the development of those programs on a routine basis. To... with an outcome of now -- and this may have changed since I retired -- there are now about 12 or 13 such facilities.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. RICKS: Uh-huh...
MR. MCDANIEL: Huh!
MR. RICKS: And we, along with the French and the Soviet Union, were responsible for seeing to it that those individuals were properly trained and that would make sure the personnel in those countries were properly trained. And, so, as the number of the programs expanded, it led to REAC/TS becoming a member of the international response community with the intent -- and it worked very well -- of expanding that capability to respond worldwide.
MR. MCDANIEL: What did the local folks here in Oak Ridge think of REAC/TS?
MR. RICKS: I think, from talking to several people, they felt quite relieved that such a facility existed in this community and DOE felt that they were providing a service which was looked upon by the international community as something that politically brought a lot of favor to the U.S. and DOE.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. Exactly.
MR. RICKS: And there weren't a lot of serious radiation accidents. There was more need for training. When I retired and a few years after that, as I recall, there were only, for all those years, only 450-something serious accidents.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: Now, I'm sure since I retired there've been a few more because the world has expanded in its use of radiation for research and for medicine.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that 450 was worldwide.
MR. RICKS: Worldwide. Right. So, the bottom line is that as these centers expanded, we participated with the French and the Soviets in the training and emergency response and that led to two things. First of all, I was promoted from the assistant director to the associate director for a few years and in the early 80s, I think '81, became the director of REAC/TS.
MR. MCDANIEL: Who was the director when you were the associate?
MR. RICKS: Dr. Karl Hubner. So I began to travel all over the world and had the absolute distinct pleasure of being invited to 46 different countries.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Wow.
MR. RICKS: In providing the services that we did. And that was extremely educational for me and allowed me to become very, very well-versed in working with individuals in their own countries.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MR. RICKS: And that was certainly an eye-opener for me. Because here was this guy that'd grown up in the swamps around the Gulf Coast, now he was cast into situations where he was learning all about new cultures and providing direct assistance to them. It was really, really amazing that I found myself in that kind of situation.
MR. MCDANIEL: What year did you retire?
MR. RICKS: I retired in '04.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? Ok.
MR. RICKS: And after I retired, I stayed on and worked for, oh, about six months and then decided to retire completely, except for some association I had with the International Atomic Energy Agency. And will assist them in Vienna, Austria in the interpretation of certain radiation effects.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And making sure that individuals on an international basis were trained properly, reviewing documents for them. That was also very, very interesting work and I got to meet people from every culture you can think of and that was certainly an eye-opener. Things that I have tried to pass on to my children about what a particular culture is like and how we are supposed to act around those individuals and to respect their way of life.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, let me ask you... let's go back and let's talk a little bit about your life here in Oak Ridge because when you came here that second summer, you never left. You've been here ever since except for your travel. Now, were you married at that point?
MR. RICKS: I was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. Did you have children?
MR. RICKS: Yes, I had three, one of whom is deceased now. And I was able to share with them all of these interactions that I have had with individuals from these countries. What it meant to me and what it could mean to them. I particularly liked to bring individuals who were visiting here from these foreign countries, bring them to my home and have dinner with these individuals and be able to let the children talk with them. It's really very, I think, interesting and educational for your kids to have an individual from an Arabic country sitting there and discussing their ways of life and how their children are raised and all with my kids sitting right there listening because they had to learn something and they did and they were very grateful for that. That, I am sure, gave them an insight into the fact that there are a lot of other people out there with their own ways of life and cultural activities and all. And those people were very grateful to come to our home here and make sure that they got to meet an American family. So, that was very, very useful in their upbringing and they, to this day, still talk about it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, is REAC/TS still operational?
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. RICKS: There is a physician now who is the director of it named Albert Wiley. And, it's still there and still doing the same thing that it was doing when I left.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, thank you so much. Is there anything else you want to talk about?
MR. RICKS: No, I can't really think of anything. Just to repeat that the ... this young guy from the swamplands and Texas coast ended up traveling all over the world and meeting all these wonderful people and had the greatest respect for them and they had the same for me because I accepted their way of life and they greatly appreciated that and, if I could, I'll give you an example.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure!
MR. RICKS: I went to the Mid-East countries on several occasions to train. I went to -- it was in Egypt -- and it was during Ramadan and I wasn't sure what Ramadan was so I did a little research on that before I went over. And, the conference was going to be during Ramadan and, I don't know how familiar you are with Ramadan...
MR. MCDANIEL: A little, not much.
MR. RICKS: You know, individuals cannot eat or drink any fluid until after sun-up and after sundown. Okay, so the first day, I was ... we broke for lunch. Little did I know, at that time, that they couldn't eat or drink anything. So, they took me to a small room and an individual brought me some lunch in and I got to thinking... First of all, let me back up. This lady was sitting there watching me eat and she was drooling because she was hungry.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Exactly!
MR. RICKS: And she couldn't eat. And so, I finished my lunch and I found my host and I told him that since it is Ramadan and I am in your country, I do not want to eat or drink anything the rest of the course. The man said, "Oh no, you need to eat! Don't practice our religion!" I said, "I would never try to practice your religion but I'm going to abide by the way of life that all of you individuals have to abide by." I got gold stars around my name for doing that. On another occasion we had an individual here, a female physician. She was from Sri Lanka. She didn't really know how to act, what to do. I invited her to the house for dinner and she very graciously accepted, came over and, before we sat at the table, I said to her, "I must inform you that being of the culture that we are from, pork has been eaten in this house." And she said, "Well, thank you very much." She said, "It's all right. I won't eat any." And I said, "I don't have any plates that I can assure you that pork has not been on."
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: We became friends and still occasionally talk with each other.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Well, sounds like you've had an interesting life here.
MR. RICKS: Very interesting life. Something I never expected to happen and it is amazing on an international level what individuals do in foreign countries if you respect their way of life. And I heard that so many times. They were very grateful for that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, very good, thank you Mr. Ricks for taking so much time and talking with us.
MR. RICKS: My pleasure.
[End of Interview]
[Editor’s Note: This transcript has been edited at Mr. Ricks’ request. The corresponding audio and video components have remained unchanged.]

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ORAL HISTORY OF ROBERT (BOB) RICKS
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
April 26, 2013
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is April the 26th, 2013, and I am at the home of Bob "Robert" Ricks...
MR. RICKS: Bob is fine...
MR. MCDANIEL: Bob is fine... here in Oak Ridge. Mr. Ricks thank you for taking time to talk with us.
MR. RICKS: You're quite welcome. I appreciate the opportunity.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let's start at the beginning. Why don't you tell me where you were born and raised, something about your upbringing.
MR. RICKS: Okay, I was born and raised in Port Arthur, Texas, and attended all my schooling there except for college education. I graduated high school in 1957 and went to college at Lamar University in Beaumont, Texas. And I didn't really have any inkling that I would get a post graduate degree until one of my instructors, who read my personality quite well, angered me a little bit by saying that, well, I didn't need to think about going to college and all that because he didn't think that I would be that good of a college student.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. RICKS: And, naturally, you know, being of the male sex, I took that as a challenge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And that's what he wanted to happen.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And, so, he helped me in getting accepted to college and I began to get curious as I neared my graduation date about post-graduate studies.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, when you were in high school did you have any specific interests. I mean, anything that you're particularly interested in studying?
MR. RICKS: Biology. And, so, I set out in about 1956 with the intent of getting a post graduate education. And he explained to me the options I had, what he thought I should do and so, I -- with this man's assistance - I applied to Texas A&M University to do graduate studies there. And he issued some more challenges because I guess he, again, read that if he challenged me, I would show him that I could do it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And, so, I entered Texas A&M with the intent of obtaining a master's degree. And, since I liked biology, I pursued a master's degree in zoology.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, did you... was your bachelor's degree in biology?
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. RICKS: And, I -- with his challenges, I discovered that if I really put my mind to it, I could get good grades and I did. I graduated with a master's degree with a B+ average.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And I had some friends at Texas A&M that began to ask me if I was going to go on and get a Ph.D. I wasn't quite sure what that required of me, and so I looked into that very thoroughly and applied and got accepted with a fellowship type of assistance and began to pursue a Ph.D. degree. And when I got into that program for a doctorate degree, Texas A&M at that time, and still today, are very, very big on providing educational activities for persons who like the biology/zoology line. But they add a certain program in with that and that deals with the effects of radiation on animals and plants.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. RICKS: And so I began to pursue the... the radiation area for research and I found it to be ...
MR. MCDANIEL: This was in the... this was in the late ‘50s...
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: ...early ‘60s? So that was something relatively new...
MR. RICKS: Not only to me, but to everyone that was pursuing graduate degrees or doctorates degree. And so I got fascinated by a field of study that was not offered at too many colleges at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And I, again, got challenged by someone at A&M, regarding what I would do with that degree. And I got the same kind of challenge that it requires a lot of intensive study.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And I did research on the effects of radiation of pregnant female rats that gave me the background that -- at that time I didn't realize it would work out this way was of interest to some people here in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. RICKS: And by that, I mean that I had an acquaintance in graduate school who contacted me the first year that I got into the graduate program there for my doctorate. And he told me of an organization that I might be interested in. An organization that... that offered summer fellowships. And this man was teaching at Maryville College.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. RICKS: And in the summer of '67, being a junior member of the staff where I was working, which was going to be... Arkansas State University's where I had my first job.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. RICKS: And he asked me if I had a job for the summer '67. Being a junior member of the university staff- I did not.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And so, he said, “Well, let me give you this address and you write to a company called Oak Ridge Associated Universities”, which at that time was ORINS...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, which was the Oak Ridge Institute for Nuclear Studies.
MR. RICKS: And so I applied. There were 26 persons who applied for this one position in the medical division of ORINS. And because -- and only because -- I had this experience in the effects of radiation on animal life, I got accepted and had a three month appointment here in Oak Ridge. What I had pursued in my Ph.D. degree research was of great value to my getting this position.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now this was... You said this was '67?
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay...
MR. RICKS: I completed my degree requirements in '66, and the degree was conferred in January ‘67.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Had you ever been to Oak Ridge before you came?
MR. RICKS: Didn't know what Oak Ridge was.
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) What were your first impressions?
MR. RICKS: First impression was: There are things besides the swampy Gulf coast.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And here are mountains, which I'm trying to remember, I may have seen a mountain one time before this.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? (laughs)
MR. RICKS: So, I came here and did my three month appointment and left – returned to my teaching at Arkansas State University. And I thought that I would probably never see Oak Ridge again. However, I found out I was not going to have a summer position in '69...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: ... and so I contacted the group at ORINS here that I had worked with two summers before, and they told me that the deadline for applying for the research position had passed.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. RICKS: And I did something that was not like my upbringing. I told the physician that I had worked with that, well, if the deadline has passed, why don't you push some buttons for me and get me in to continue the research I had done ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: ... at ORINS two years before. And, lo, and behold, two weeks later I got a letter from them and I had been accepted into the summer of 1969 research program.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Who was the physician? Do you mind saying?
MR. RICKS: The physician Dr. Edwards, as I recall, but that's not the physician that I ended up working with. That second summer I was here, I met a physician by the name of Clarence Lushbaugh and he had a grant from NASA to study ways to determine the disabling effects of radiation on astronauts.
MR. MCDANIEL: Hmm!
MR. RICKS: You may recall that it was in '69 that the Apollo space program was in full bloom and they were going to the moon.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And so, I got the position with Dr. Lushbaugh and my job was to work with the individuals in the computer science program here at O.R.A.U.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: ... to determine a way to predict that an individual, say, who was trapped due to some kind of failure...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: ... trapped in the Van Allen radiation belt and how would we know -- how would NASA know -- if the individuals were incapacitated...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. RICKS: ... in the space craft and were they able to get back. And the head of the computer science program at O.R.A.U. and I worked on developing a system which would allow one to measure the incapacitating features of whole-body radiation and the disabling effects caused by radiation exposure that could, if the doses were high enough...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. RICKS: But we needed to find out what would actually happen and how would you be able to measure this.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And there were several patients in the medical division at O.R.A.U. who were getting total-body radiation therapy because this was, as I recall at that time, the only place in the United States that was using total-body radiation to treat certain types of leukemia.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And it involved a system of measuring the onset and severity of radiation-induced nausea and vomiting. And that, that can certainly be incapacitating to the astronauts.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. RICKS: And there were some patients getting this radiation therapy who were in the early stages of their disease ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. RICKS: ... and volunteered to assist by allowing us to measure the effects of just how incapacitated people could become.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MR. RICKS: And it involved a system of measuring the time-to-onset of nausea/vomiting, the severity of the nausea and vomiting and the associated incapacitating effects. The procedure called "pulmonary impedance" where you measured the breathing changes, and used the information to predict when that incapacitation is going to occur and measure how impacting it was on the individual's ability to perform.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And it was all based on changing... changes, rather, in respiratory patterns.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Huh!
MR. RICKS: If you think about how your breathing changes when you are nauseated and subsequently vomiting...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: I don't know of any individual who has never vomited.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: You tend to begin to take deep breaths and then, as you get nearer and nearer to the vomiting episode, you change your breathing pattern to even deeper breaths. And finally, you begin vomiting and ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: ... and you don't breathe when you're vomiting.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And so we could onset and severity through this system of pulmonary impedance technology.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow!
MR. RICKS: And that was then to be used by our research and NASA by attaching chest electrodes to the astronauts to where that same phenomena could be measured in the crew on board the space craft.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let me ask you something: Is the results of that study, are they different than radiation-induced vomiting or any other kind?
MR. RICKS: Nope, there's no difference at all. Everybody goes through the same pattern.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. RICKS: But you just have to measure it and you can then say at a certain point in time, the individual has got five minutes before they become incapacitated ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow...
MR. RICKS: ... and vomit. And, of course, they're all in breathing gear on the space craft...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure!
MR. RICKS: ...and you don't want your astronauts vomiting into their breathing gear...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. RICKS: And, so, that was my first experience in doing any research in that regard. And not only did I learn a lot, I also learned that the patients were very, very cooperative because they knew that by volunteering -- and no one participated unless they volunteered to assist in this program -- they all felt like they were making a contribution to science and so they participated based upon that knowledge.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, that was your summer of '69; that's what you did that summer?
MR. RICKS: Yes. Well, no, what happened was, I got accepted to continue the research on looking at the effects on certain blood cell types and the pulmonary stuff was something that was done after the summer ended because that summer '69 was when I met Dr. Lushbaugh.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And he offered me a job. One year appointment to help in the development of this impedance measurement.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And, so that was a one year appointment only because the funding from NASA was on a yearly basis.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. So, you stayed?
MR. RICKS: So, I stayed and continued that research until the patient treatment program was cut off by the DOE due to costs being expensive, as you might imagine. However, the primary reason was due to the fact that radiation did not extend life any more than conventional therapy.
MR. MCDANIEL: Are you talking about the whole program or just your project? The whole ORINS?
MR. RICKS: There was a major study done by NASA and DOE and O.R.A.U. and the outcome of that showed that the survival rates from the standard type of therapy, which was using chemical studies, and the radiation was, you know, separate from that, and it was very expensive to do the studies using radiation.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. RICKS: And so, DOE decided to terminate the program and so, here I was without a job anymore.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. RICKS: And I was all set to leave Oak Ridge and I had a job offer at ... to work in Los Alamos on some related material.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And so, that was all coming to an end and I was set to move to New Mexico and the Medical Division was going to close. And Dr. Lushbaugh had an idea of not allowing all the trained staff who had worked on various programs within the Medical Division, but rather to retain those individuals. And he and Roger Cloutier, who was a health physicist at O.R.A.U., had an idea to work on developing a program which would continue to study the effects of radiation on all biological systems and physiological systems. And I played a very minor role in the development of a program that became known as REAC/TS or the Radiation Emergency Assistance Center Training Site. And I made a decision which was the best decision I've ever made in my life, not to go to New Mexico but to stay on here in Oak Ridge to work in REAC/TS program. I felt a lot of gratitude toward Lushbaugh because he allowed me to stay here and be the day-to-day manager of REAC/TS. And that allowed me to not have to move, to again assist in development of REAC/TS as a program which provided emergency medical services to individuals in the local area -- in providing assistance to them in the event of a radiation emergency. I jumped on that very quickly, still not knowing the magnitude of the benefit that that would bring to me.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And so, I accepted that management position and Lushbaugh chose me to be the REAC/TS manager because I had a lot of interest in radiation effects and I had teaching experience at Arkansas State University. He could use me to manage the program and that freed up a physician to not have to manage the program because radiation accidents are quite rare...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, of course.
MR. RICKS: And he didn't have to sit over there and manage that program, he could continue on with his medical interests.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: Did you know Dr. Lushbaugh?
MR. MCDANIEL: No, I didn't.
MR. RICKS: He was quite a guy. Very stern. And he allowed me to go from managing the program to become the assistant director based on the fact that if he ever caught me trying to practice medicine without a license and without training, or make any medical decisions -- which I knew better not to do that -- that I would just stay on as the assistant director. MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. RICKS: ... and DOE provided the necessary funding to pay for that space to be completed construction-wise and I think it was about $800,000...
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. RICKS: ... to build the facility called REAC/TS. And, so, here I was associated now with a program that I felt would have a long life span and that proved to be true. Since it still exists today. And my job was to manage the whole program and to develop training courses to teach physicians, nurses and health physicists -- to teach them how to manage radiation emergencies.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. RICKS: So, I accepted that and along with Dr. Lushbaugh and several others we began to develop training courses and to make sure that the facility was properly staffed and equipped as an emergency medical treatment unit.
MR. MCDANIEL: For radiation?
MR. RICKS: For radiation accidents only.
MR. MCDANIEL: And it was on-site at the hospital?
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yes.
MR. RICKS: And so that's why the second emergency department exists at Methodist Medical Center. And the program caught on very quickly and the training went from one or two courses to 10 or 12 courses a year. And that was very challenging. I had a staff of eight or nine working with me. And that really took off and we became nationally known and soon thereafter, became internationally known. There were only, at the time REAC/TS opened, only two other facilities in the world that offered training and emergency medical assistance...
MR. MCDANIEL: Let me ask you this: During this, this was all... REAC/TS was a program under O.R.A.U.? Is that correct? Was it a part of O.R.A.U.?
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. That's what I was thinking. Yes.
MR. RICKS: And so, the program being now the third program to be in existence worldwide began a partnership so-to-speak, with the other two centers. One was in France. The other was in the Soviet Union. So, that started some training that took two or three of us out of the country every now and then. And when I say, "out of the country," I mean that we would participate in providing training with those individuals in those two countries and making sure we were all on the same page in taking care of accidents.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let me ask you a question. Let me stop you right there. Okay, so you're very busy with the training aspect. How often did you use the emergency assistance aspect of it?
MR. RICKS: Rarely.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. Can you give me an example of something that might have happened?
MR. RICKS: Yes. One of the early examples of radiological emergency in this area dealt with, first of all, the follow-up of the Y-12 accident.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And we began to provide physical exams and things of that nature -- the medical staff that we instigated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. RICKS: And then there was a...
MR. MCDANIEL: When you refer to the Y-12 accident, we're talking about the one that took place in '58.
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: And we began to follow those individuals with regard to their health.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And then another accident that comes to mind is ... an individual -- their physician -- called REAC/TS and wanted some assistance for a patient that this man had. And the physician had a patient who had gone to ... let's see... As I recall, the individual either purchased or inherited a safe. And unbeknownst to him, there was some material inside that little safe that contained an old device that could be used for medical testing and it worked on the basis that it had some radioactive material in it. The individual who obtained it now took it home and unbeknownst to him, it was leaking and it contaminated him.
MR. MCDANIEL: He started getting sick.
MR. RICKS: And he was not getting real sick but there was a concern that, What was he going to do?
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: Another example would be from time to time the Oak Ridge police would be called upon to intercept a robbery in progress. Someone breaking in to a facility that -- not necessarily a government facility -- just breaking into a facility with the intent of stealing something. And there was concern that did the individuals -- the police become contaminated, did the thieves become contaminated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Because there were quite a number of private laboratories that had radioactive materials.
MR. RICKS: Exactly.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly.
MR. RICKS: Or they may have been transferring something radioactive from one facility to another and there would be a traffic accident.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. RICKS: The police would be called and as soon as they were called, we were called.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. RICKS: So that was typical of what the early responses were.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Well, in a town like Oak Ridge, that did what it did, you know, whether you had, you know, a hundred calls or no calls it was still prudent to have REAC/TS there.
MR. RICKS: Yes. Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: You never knew.
MR. RICKS: Exactly. And it demonstrated that the DOE was protecting the citizens of the area in the event of something happening. So.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: Then we began to respond to accidents outside the country. And went to -- it took me to several different countries which had experienced accidental radiation exposure or contamination or both. And one or more of us would go to that country and provide assistance to the medical community, etc. And the intent also was to work with the International Atomic Energy Agency in developing more, additional facilities like REAC/TS, like the facility in the Soviet Union and like the one in...
MR. MCDANIEL: France.
MR. RICKS: France.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. RICKS: And we participated in the development of those programs on a routine basis. To... with an outcome of now -- and this may have changed since I retired -- there are now about 12 or 13 such facilities.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. RICKS: Uh-huh...
MR. MCDANIEL: Huh!
MR. RICKS: And we, along with the French and the Soviet Union, were responsible for seeing to it that those individuals were properly trained and that would make sure the personnel in those countries were properly trained. And, so, as the number of the programs expanded, it led to REAC/TS becoming a member of the international response community with the intent -- and it worked very well -- of expanding that capability to respond worldwide.
MR. MCDANIEL: What did the local folks here in Oak Ridge think of REAC/TS?
MR. RICKS: I think, from talking to several people, they felt quite relieved that such a facility existed in this community and DOE felt that they were providing a service which was looked upon by the international community as something that politically brought a lot of favor to the U.S. and DOE.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. Exactly.
MR. RICKS: And there weren't a lot of serious radiation accidents. There was more need for training. When I retired and a few years after that, as I recall, there were only, for all those years, only 450-something serious accidents.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: Now, I'm sure since I retired there've been a few more because the world has expanded in its use of radiation for research and for medicine.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that 450 was worldwide.
MR. RICKS: Worldwide. Right. So, the bottom line is that as these centers expanded, we participated with the French and the Soviets in the training and emergency response and that led to two things. First of all, I was promoted from the assistant director to the associate director for a few years and in the early 80s, I think '81, became the director of REAC/TS.
MR. MCDANIEL: Who was the director when you were the associate?
MR. RICKS: Dr. Karl Hubner. So I began to travel all over the world and had the absolute distinct pleasure of being invited to 46 different countries.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Wow.
MR. RICKS: In providing the services that we did. And that was extremely educational for me and allowed me to become very, very well-versed in working with individuals in their own countries.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MR. RICKS: And that was certainly an eye-opener for me. Because here was this guy that'd grown up in the swamps around the Gulf Coast, now he was cast into situations where he was learning all about new cultures and providing direct assistance to them. It was really, really amazing that I found myself in that kind of situation.
MR. MCDANIEL: What year did you retire?
MR. RICKS: I retired in '04.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? Ok.
MR. RICKS: And after I retired, I stayed on and worked for, oh, about six months and then decided to retire completely, except for some association I had with the International Atomic Energy Agency. And will assist them in Vienna, Austria in the interpretation of certain radiation effects.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. RICKS: And making sure that individuals on an international basis were trained properly, reviewing documents for them. That was also very, very interesting work and I got to meet people from every culture you can think of and that was certainly an eye-opener. Things that I have tried to pass on to my children about what a particular culture is like and how we are supposed to act around those individuals and to respect their way of life.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, let me ask you... let's go back and let's talk a little bit about your life here in Oak Ridge because when you came here that second summer, you never left. You've been here ever since except for your travel. Now, were you married at that point?
MR. RICKS: I was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. Did you have children?
MR. RICKS: Yes, I had three, one of whom is deceased now. And I was able to share with them all of these interactions that I have had with individuals from these countries. What it meant to me and what it could mean to them. I particularly liked to bring individuals who were visiting here from these foreign countries, bring them to my home and have dinner with these individuals and be able to let the children talk with them. It's really very, I think, interesting and educational for your kids to have an individual from an Arabic country sitting there and discussing their ways of life and how their children are raised and all with my kids sitting right there listening because they had to learn something and they did and they were very grateful for that. That, I am sure, gave them an insight into the fact that there are a lot of other people out there with their own ways of life and cultural activities and all. And those people were very grateful to come to our home here and make sure that they got to meet an American family. So, that was very, very useful in their upbringing and they, to this day, still talk about it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, is REAC/TS still operational?
MR. RICKS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. RICKS: There is a physician now who is the director of it named Albert Wiley. And, it's still there and still doing the same thing that it was doing when I left.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, thank you so much. Is there anything else you want to talk about?
MR. RICKS: No, I can't really think of anything. Just to repeat that the ... this young guy from the swamplands and Texas coast ended up traveling all over the world and meeting all these wonderful people and had the greatest respect for them and they had the same for me because I accepted their way of life and they greatly appreciated that and, if I could, I'll give you an example.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure!
MR. RICKS: I went to the Mid-East countries on several occasions to train. I went to -- it was in Egypt -- and it was during Ramadan and I wasn't sure what Ramadan was so I did a little research on that before I went over. And, the conference was going to be during Ramadan and, I don't know how familiar you are with Ramadan...
MR. MCDANIEL: A little, not much.
MR. RICKS: You know, individuals cannot eat or drink any fluid until after sun-up and after sundown. Okay, so the first day, I was ... we broke for lunch. Little did I know, at that time, that they couldn't eat or drink anything. So, they took me to a small room and an individual brought me some lunch in and I got to thinking... First of all, let me back up. This lady was sitting there watching me eat and she was drooling because she was hungry.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Exactly!
MR. RICKS: And she couldn't eat. And so, I finished my lunch and I found my host and I told him that since it is Ramadan and I am in your country, I do not want to eat or drink anything the rest of the course. The man said, "Oh no, you need to eat! Don't practice our religion!" I said, "I would never try to practice your religion but I'm going to abide by the way of life that all of you individuals have to abide by." I got gold stars around my name for doing that. On another occasion we had an individual here, a female physician. She was from Sri Lanka. She didn't really know how to act, what to do. I invited her to the house for dinner and she very graciously accepted, came over and, before we sat at the table, I said to her, "I must inform you that being of the culture that we are from, pork has been eaten in this house." And she said, "Well, thank you very much." She said, "It's all right. I won't eat any." And I said, "I don't have any plates that I can assure you that pork has not been on."
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. RICKS: We became friends and still occasionally talk with each other.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Well, sounds like you've had an interesting life here.
MR. RICKS: Very interesting life. Something I never expected to happen and it is amazing on an international level what individuals do in foreign countries if you respect their way of life. And I heard that so many times. They were very grateful for that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, very good, thank you Mr. Ricks for taking so much time and talking with us.
MR. RICKS: My pleasure.
[End of Interview]
[Editor’s Note: This transcript has been edited at Mr. Ricks’ request. The corresponding audio and video components have remained unchanged.]