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"For initiation you have to terify a yard sale. You know one of those yard sales you see all over vermont. You blow by it at 100 mph and make people scream."-Tom T
'99 CR250
'01 XL1200
'07 DL650

Good lord, what will they do if they catch you riding a dirt bike "out of bounds"!

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLXplode

Definitely took it too seriously. but those hippies were pushin it

I've seen that before, and it pisses me off every time. There is so much more to that story, and Kokesh is just a self-aggrandizing douchbag.

First, the woman who was arrested for "dancing" at the memorial? She was part of a flash mob, also known as an organized demonstration. Demonstrations without approval are illegal at the monuments. Saying she was arrested for "dancing" is a drastic distortion of the truth.

Second, she was arrested in '08, and her appeal was denied in '09. If this was such a grievous violation of first amendment rights why did that prick Kokesh wait TWO YEARS to protest it?

Third, a National Monument is NOT a "public forum". So the 1st Amendment does not cover expression in the monuments. Just because it's federally owned does not make it public forum, there are plenty of federally owned properties that are not . It is not specifically so the government could prevent demonstrations that would interfere with people visiting the monuments. Ask yourself, would you really want the Westboro Baptist Church or the American Nazi Party free reign to demonstrate at the monuments?

On top of that, in Grayned v. Rockford the supreme court upheld a ruling that said that a demonstration in a public forum must be compatible with the intended usage of the area, so even if the memorial was a public forum (which it isn't!) then the demonstration, even if it was legal (which it wasn't!), could have been determined to be incompatible with the usage of the space and then prohibited without violating the 1st amendment.

As for the police action, they did a fucking GREAT job. They politely told the protesters that they needed to disperse, and that they would be arrested if they did not. Well, they violated that, and they got arrested. Kokesh was passively resisting arrest by not complying with an officer in lawful execution of his duties and, according to Graham v. Connor, a LEO is authorized to use any amount of force that is both reasonable and necessary to carry out his lawful duty. He used a take-down and contact controls, it was TEXTBOOK use-of-force continuum. Hell, when that guy grabbed Kokesh's arm he was being actively resistant, and he's kind of lucky he didn't get his ass beat.

As for Kokesh, how about this little bit of knowledge: Kokesh was given an "other than honorable" discharge from the military for violating a number of articles of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (including smuggling a gun illegally into the Unites States!)

Sorry for the rant, but any time some fucking idiot posts a video of himself getting arrested on Youtube and screams about police brutality and violation of rights it pisses me off. Mostly because every OTHER person who watches the video has an automatic reaction to anyone getting arrested: "Oh No, a victim!" Bullshit. The only victims here are the people who didn't get to see the monument because they closed it down temporarily as a result of Kokesh's actions. I also feel sorry for the cops who were only doing their job and became a tool for this assholes publicity stunt.

>"First, the woman who was arrested for "dancing" at the memorial? She was part of a flash mob, also known as an organized demonstration. Demonstrations without approval are illegal at the monuments. Saying she was arrested for "dancing" is a drastic distortion of the truth."

Er.... Demonstration?

Mary Brooke Oberwetter was arrested at the Jefferson Memorial while participating in an organized celebration of the 265th birthday of President Jefferson. Ms. Oberwetter and the group were dancing silently as they listened to music on headphones.

>"Third, a National Monument is NOT a "public forum". So the 1st Amendment does not cover expression in the monuments. "

Where do you find that in the constitution? Hint: It was made up. Just like so called 'protest zones' (etc). Jefferson will be rollling in his grave.

>" On top of that, in Grayned v. Rockford the supreme court upheld a ruling that said that a demonstration..."

It was the U.S. Court of Appeals in the District of Columbia in the District of Columbia. Not Supreme Court.

> "As for the police action, they did a fucking GREAT job... Hell, when that guy grabbed Kokesh's arm he was being actively resistant, and he's kind of lucky he didn't get his ass beat"

Ohboy. That's all I can say.

> "The only victims here are the people who didn't get to see the monument because they closed it down temporarily as a result of Kokesh's actions"

Hmmm... so they closed it down arresting 5 people... 1 for dancing? Breakdancing? Endangering others ?

Waited awhile and protestors would have given up... gone home. No video, no controversy... and Jefferson would be at peace.

Those protester were/are scum!! They got exactly what they were hoping for. It was a planned protest against a rule they didn't like and the LEO's showed great restraint. Screw them protesters If I traveled across the country to see the sites in DC and they pulled that shit I would be hard pressed to not punch them in the face.

>"First, the woman who was arrested for "dancing" at the memorial? She was part of a flash mob, also known as an organized demonstration. Demonstrations without approval are illegal at the monuments. Saying she was arrested for "dancing" is a drastic distortion of the truth."

Er.... Demonstration?

Mary Brooke Oberwetter was arrested at the Jefferson Memorial while participating in an organized celebration of the 265th birthday of President Jefferson. Ms. Oberwetter and the group were dancing silently as they listened to music on headphones.

Yeah, a "flash mob" is a group of people who show up at a predetermined location and do something random. In this case a group of 20 people who showed up at the monument and started dancing. Still an organized demonstration. They're intended to draw attention by interrupting normal use of a space because they're intended to appear spontaneous. I don't know where you got your quote or information, but they make a LOT of inferences rather then statements based on fact (how can they know they did it to celebrate his birthday and not because the monument was more likely to be busy on that day?). Hell, even if it was a birthday observation, it still needs approval, regardless of the banality of the actions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwilightZone

>"Third, a National Monument is NOT a "public forum". So the 1st Amendment does not cover expression in the monuments. "

Where do you find that in the constitution? Hint: It was made up. Just like so called 'protest zones' (etc). Jefferson will be rollling in his grave.

Fine, even if it WAS a public forum, Grayned v. Rockford still allow for restrictions on activities which are not compatible with the use of the space. Hell without it can you imagine a "freedom of speech" protest that blocked the entrance to a military base? Or even just blocked a street? I imagine if you were the one waiting in the traffic jam you'd appreciate the fact that the police have the authority to intervene in "freedom of speech" at that point. Hell, there are so many exceptions to freedom of speech that apply here it's not even funny. Freedom of speech does not apply to speech which causes others to commit illegal acts (Brandenburg v. Ohio. and Schenck v. United States I think). In which case Kokesh dancing, and inciting others to do so, is NOT protected by the 1st amendment.

And the constitution is a living document, it changes to suit the needs of a society, or maybe you'd rather we still had slavery and prohibition? Or perhaps the articles of confederation instead of the constitution? Saying that something is "made up" is irrelevant, because everything was made at some point or another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwilightZone

>" On top of that, in Grayned v. Rockford the supreme court upheld a ruling that said that a demonstration..."

It was the U.S. Court of Appeals in the District of Columbia in the District of Columbia. Not Supreme Court.

Excuse me, I quoted that from memory, and I forgot it wasn't a supreme court case. It does not make the case ANY less valid, as I am sure someone tried to push it to the supreme court, and they found it valid enough that it did not require their review.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwilightZone

> "As for the police action, they did a fucking GREAT job... Hell, when that guy grabbed Kokesh's arm he was being actively resistant, and he's kind of lucky he didn't get his ass beat"

Ohboy. That's all I can say.

Do some research into use of force before you say any more. Police officers are authorized to use any force reasonable and necessary in order to do their job. (Graham v Conner is the most relevant) The officer told Kokesh to stop, he didn't, then attempted to walk away when he was under arrest. The officer took him down and arrested him. It was textbook. When the guy came in and grabbed Kokesh he was being actively resistant, and at that point the officers could have used personal weapons (ie, strikes, etc) against him. He was actively interfering with the officers who were just doing their job. No one else resisted and they were all simply handcuffed and sat down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwilightZone

> "The only victims here are the people who didn't get to see the monument because they closed it down temporarily as a result of Kokesh's actions"

Hmmm... so they closed it down arresting 5 people... 1 for dancing? Breakdancing? Endangering others ?

Waited awhile and protestors would have given up... gone home. No video, no controversy... and Jefferson would be at peace.

They shut it down due to Kokesh actions, that's the true rights violation here. As for allowing the protesters to go home, you're saying Police should choose which laws they enforce just because someone may not like it? Sorry, no.

Would you really want free reign for whoever felt like it organizing a demonstration in the memorials with no regulations what so ever? You'd never get within 100 yards of the memorials they would be so full of idiots spouting off nonsense. Hell, the sidewalks in DC were bad enough the last time I was there, let alone the zoo the monuments would be. I'd like to be able to enjoy the monuments without interference, what about you?

What about the two year time period between the upholding of the ban and the protest by Kokesh? If it wasn't just a publicity stunt why did he wait so long? Did you know that this coincided with his new radio show? Probably not. How about this, Kokesh, the champion of free speech, has a TV show on a Russian STATE OWNED television channel. They chop up his show and use soundbites to suit their needs. Sounds like freedom of speech takes a backseat to the almighty dollar for Mr. Kokesh.

And I'll give you this last one: Freedom of speech doesn't give you the right to falsely shout fire in a crowded theater, right? Wrong, you can shout it ALL YOU WANT, you just have to be prepared to deal with the consequences. Kokesh shouted fire, and the consequences were he got arrested.

Yeah, it's not like they were disrupting the Wisconsin State Assembly building for 2 weeks... or giving the "I Have A Dream Speech"... or sitting down at a lunch counter in Selma... oh wait, those weren't First Amendment issues at all.

Yeah, it's not like they were disrupting the Wisconsin State Assembly building for 2 weeks... or giving the "I Have A Dream Speech"... or sitting down at a lunch counter in Selma... oh wait, those weren't First Amendment issues at all.

Nothing to worry about, they're only rounding up a few Jews!

Really? Really?

You're going to compare a douchbag like Kokesh to Dr. Martin Luther King? Or a bunch of idiots in a "flash mob" to the oppression of an entire ethnic group, or better yet the SIX MILLION Jews who were murdered by the Nazi's?