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Hello Dux
Eve was the one who was deceived. She was the one who ate first.

Found it! NASB uses G1818 'exapatao' for Eve, and G538 apatao for Adam.
Hosea6:7 But like [fn]Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.
Job31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom". So even the Bible speaks of 'closet believers'.. you think?
Both "deceived", according to 1Tim2:14.. Not sure what 'eating first' has to do with it.

Originally Posted by David M

The Genesis record does not say Adam deceived Eve, and I have not found support from anywhere else in scripture to confirm Adam did what you say.

Like so many hidden things in scripture, with answers coming later. So how did Noah tell the difference between the clean and unclean animals?

Originally Posted by David M

Hosea 6:7 sounds like a general reference to men (inclusive of women). That is what I usually mean in general terms when I speak of "man" or "men"; that includes women.

Roger that, used to think that too, but our Holy Ghostwriter uses those to His advantage and OUR seeking.

Originally Posted by David M

Re Job 31:33 Do you think Adam was responsible for making Eve hide with him? Do you think Eve would have hidden herself, had it not been for Adam hiding first?

The HIDING is one of the great overlooked themes, IMO naturally.

Originally Posted by David M

Adam's fall was greater. He was rebuked by God for; "hearkening unto thy wife" Adam followed Eve's lead. Adam did not stop to reason.

Sure.. He'd gotten the instructions right from the horses mouth, but chose to follow Eve; like mankind follows their peers rather than the 66 Books.

Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

Found it! NASB uses G1818 'exapatao' for Eve, and G538 apatao for Adam.
Hosea6:7 But like [fn]Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.
Job31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom". So even the Bible speaks of 'closet believers'.. you think?
Both "deceived", according to 1Tim2:14.. Not sure what 'eating first' has to do with it.

The first to eat, was the first to commit the sin. Thinking first about eating the forbidden fruit might not come into this. Adam had time to think about it before Eve was created. The two trees in the midst of the garden were planted there before Adam was placed in the garden. That gives us a clue to say that the two trees were placed there for a reason ahead of Adam being put in the garden and put to the test.
Adam was told to dress all the trees in the garden. There does not appear to be an instruction to Adam not to touch the tree; only do not eat of it. However, Eve tells the serpent she is not to touch the tree lest she die. The same consequence as easting of the tree. Where did Eve get the instruction not to touch the tree when it is apparent Adam was not told not to touch the tree?

Originally Posted by duxrow

Like so many hidden things in scripture, with answers coming later.

That is true. Understanding the Book of Job correctly and what The Satan is, helps us to see Serpent in the garden in the same light. The story of Job does not come as late in history as order in the Bible would suggest. The time period of Job is thought to be at the time of the Children of Israel wandering in the wilderness. Hence, the Book of Job could be placed before the Book of the Judges, if the books were listed in chronological order.

Originally Posted by duxrow

So how did Noah tell the difference between the clean and unclean animals?

That is an interesting question and the subject of a new thread I suggest. How many kinds of clean and unclean animals would there have been? Even keeping unclean animals serves a purpose. Maybe there is an allegory here as to why God allows sin to continue.

Originally Posted by duxrow

Roger that, used to think that too, but our Holy Ghostwriter uses those to His advantage and OUR seeking.

I am all for seeing as many connections as possible to get as many lessons as possible. I not the plural "men" is used denoting multiple Adams in that case.

Originally Posted by duxrow

The HIDING is one of the great overlooked themes, IMO naturally.

Goes to show there is no hiding place. Only God can search men's hearts and nothing can be hid there. Another small detail is; God does not call to Eve. It was with Adam the test was first given and it was not until Eve was created that Adam had an excuse.

Originally Posted by duxrow

Sure.. He'd gotten the instructions right from the horses mouth, but chose to follow Eve; like mankind follows their peers rather than the 66 Books.

OK David, imagine Eve 'wakes' and Adam takes charge.
Tells her about GOD prohibits eating from the Tree of Smarts (intends to mention the Tree of Jesus, but it slips his mind.)
IMMEDIATELY she gets interested in the Tree of Smarts, and watches it intently, looking for some reason she should abstain. This worries Adam, so to be on the safe side he warns her not to even touch the tree--that it might kill her. Like maybe it's wired or something--chances are they don't have much experience using the Hebrew language..
Then after she chomps down on the "forbidden fruit", he plays it safe by waiting 24 hrs., in case she might really die on Day One.
No, I don't really think it happened that way, but the Author has given us a marvelous scenario that permits different points of view. Right?

Last edited by duxrow; 01-06-2014 at 02:23 PM.

Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

OK David, imagine Eve 'wakes' and Adam takes charge.
Tells her about GOD prohibits eating from the Tree of Smarts (intends to mention the Tree of Jesus, but it slips his mind.)
IMMEDIATELY she gets interested in the Tree of Smarts, and watches it intently, looking for some reason she should abstain. This worries Adam, so to be on the safe side he warns her not to even touch the tree--that it might kill her. Like maybe it's wired or something--chances are they don't have much experience using the Hebrew language..
Then after she chomps down on the "forbidden fruit", he plays it safe by waiting 24 hrs., in case she might really die on Day One.
No, I don't really think it happened that way, but the Author has given us a marvelous scenario that permits different points of view. Right?

Hello Dux
We were not there and so we have to rely on what we are told by someone who was there to witness what happened. The only one who was there is God and we have his inspired word written down. We have to make the best judgement based on the economical use of words. It leaves scope to fill in the details we think might have took place. Unless we have scriptural support from later scripture to help us come up with a consistent message, then we have the liberty to think what might have happened. In that case, as long as there is not scriptural evidence opposing our ideas, then all ideas we can say are acceptable and do not radically change the story.

A point to come out of this story of A & E (not an accident or emergency), one of the principles to come out of this, is that Adam being created first, was given the responsibility to instruct Eve and do what was in her best interest. Adam failed as the head of this two-person household. The principle continues from there that the man is the head of the household and therefore the woman is not to usurp the authority of her husband or to teach, in the sense that Adam was expected to teach Eve. This does not mean the woman is any less intelligent than the man, it is the order of things as determined by the Creator. We accept Christ as the head of the assembly etc.

Following 1 Tim 2:13 in which Eve is mentioned, soon after in 1 Tim 3:2 we read; A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, .., I think we can say the man (not woman in this case) in general has been put in the office of Bishop. He has the responsibility to teach. This is why even though women can be intellectually better than a man, a woman must not usurp the authority of her husband. This is the divine principle laid down from the beginning.

Adam as the Bishop, failed to be vigilant. He did not keep an eye on his wife and check to see what she was doing. We know the temptation of Eve took place when Adam was not present. In this drama, there is no conversation between the Serpent and Adam. Apart from the Serpent reportedly speaking to Eve, the Serpent is silent. In the drama, we have conversations between God and Adam, God and Eve, and Adam and Eve. I see this drama in a similar way to how the Book of Job is written. That is why I see the Serpent in the Garden as being the same as The Satan in the Book of Job. The Satan was in the life of both Eve and Job, as it is in all of us. Even Jesus had to overcome the Satan that was in him. Until Jesus overcame the Satan (human pride) and received his immortal body, that is why Jesus did not regard himself as good (perfect). That statement could only be said of his Heavenly Father, thus Jesus never claimed equality with God. Also in the sense that Jesus had not learnt complete obedience until he had overcome all temptation, (hence Heb 5:8); Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;. That is another reason why I believe Jesus could not have been God, for Jesus was in the position of being made perfect. We are to be like Jesus, and though we fail, we shall be made perfect when by the grace of God, immortality is bestowed on us. In the meantime, we learn to be obedient by the things we have to suffer in this life. Jesus did not say we were going to have an easy life.

It is good to be reminded of all these things as we wait for the day when all truth will be revealed. I expect we shall be kicking ourselves for the times we we failed to spot something that should have been obvious.

Year of light

There is a minimal level of dignity that should be afforded to all.
No-one is above anyone else.
No-one cares what you know unless they know that you care.
Winning an argument and losing a friend is not (in my humble opinion) winning.

Hello Dux
We were not there.. In that case, as long as there is not scriptural evidence opposing our ideas, then all ideas we can say are acceptable and do not radically change the story.
In the meantime, we learn to be obedient by the things we have to suffer in this life. Jesus did not say we were going to have an easy life.
All the best David

Roger the inspiration, David, yet you apparently aren't including Job31:33 and Hos6:7 which tells me that Adam was something of a scoundrel or scalawag. Eve having babies by him, so 1Tim2:15 may also apply.. You think?

Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

Sonoma.edu was interesting, Rick, but don't agree about 3rd Temple (for more sacrifices) since Jesus was fulfillment of them.. The 66th year from '48 is maybe more apropos IMO. I agree that "mazzaroth" and Zodiac points to Christ, but am not versed well enough to make sense of ecliptics.http://cswnet.com/~duxrow/zodiac.htm

Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

Pattern-Sonoma

If there is a pattern here that can be proven to be significant, then I think we should try to find out out how this stuff all ties together.
I heard that 5776 (the year of light) was connected to 1776 because of the creation in 4000 B.C. theory.
I also heard that the great pyramid had 5776 encoded into it's measurements, and is some kind of a calendar.
By the way I read somewhere one explanation, Eve added to the word of God. Adam knowingly chose to join Eve in her predicament and the fig leaves were a model or type of man's religion. God clothed then with animal skins to show that it was by the shedding of innocent blood that they would be saved from their dilemma.
This blood being poured out is interesting to me. Do you suppose there could be something like order being poured out into chaos going on here? I have no idea myself, but if this is true, Jesus died once for all, is this some kind of a repair for all of creation? Something about the blood of Christ that has a tangible effect on everything?

Last edited by rdelmonico; 01-08-2014 at 03:47 AM.
Reason: ?

There is a minimal level of dignity that should be afforded to all.
No-one is above anyone else.
No-one cares what you know unless they know that you care.
Winning an argument and losing a friend is not (in my humble opinion) winning.

If there is a pattern here that can be proven to be significant, then I think we should try to find out out how this stuff all ties together.
I heard that 5776 (the year of light) was connected to 1776 because of the creation in 4000 B.C. theory.

Have you seen this one? 3 dispensations followed by a thousand years.. (millennium to come).

Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

Seven dispensations ?

Adam before the fall, Adam to Noah, Noah to Abraham, Abraham to Moses, Moses to Jesus, Church age, Millennium.

There is a minimal level of dignity that should be afforded to all.
No-one is above anyone else.
No-one cares what you know unless they know that you care.
Winning an argument and losing a friend is not (in my humble opinion) winning.