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ditto. pork product was always my least favorite. burgers, steak and buffalo tenders were what i had a hard time parting with. however, i was always more of a seafood fan than anything. i still haven't fully parted with it, though i hope to eventually.

Originally Posted by Orangey

I love seafood and enjoy poultry. If it weren't for those two categories of meat, I'd probably be a vegetarian by default.

I do love the sea food more than anything else. I could destroy Poseidon's kingdom in one afternoon.

It's the idea of getting rid of that which really makes me dread vegetarianism, especially since my carnivorous enzymes will stop being produced and then it will be really hard to go back if I change my mind. :sad:

Go to sleep, iguana.

_________________________________INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

What about free range eggs and humanitarian farms? Why go vegan rather than supporting those who are attempting to create an ethical option in opposition to slaughter houses?

I think it depends what your motive is. If you believe it's wrong to kill something that can feel pain and experience fear, then you wouldn't consume any meat/seafood. This could also affect your consumption of other animal products. The dairy industry, for instance, is directly linked to the veal industry and the slaughter of bulls.

If your motive is environmental protection, there's not much difference. It's great if you don't have waste being pumped into the local water source, but you're still using a lot more land and water for food production than with a non-animal-based diet, and you're generating far more greenhouse gas emissions. The environmental concerns are also an issue for those concerned about global hunger.

If you're motivated by health concerns, obviously, the treatment of the animals has little impact. I realize some of these farms may bypass certain hormones and chemicals, but most vegetarians are more concerned about things like cholesterol and saturated fat. The risk of salmonella, pfiesteria, e.coli, etc. is also largely unaffected, though I suppose mad cow disease might be less likely.

If you believe excess consumption of animal products is a public health crisis -- rates of obesity, diabetes, and osteoporosis have sky-rocketed in the past several decades, and heart disease is the leading cause of death worldwide -- then you might feel obligated not to support any consumption of those products, regardless of the source.

If your religion prohibits consumption of certain foods or condemns killing animals generally, the treatment of the animals is usually not relevant.

If your motive is trying to live a "natural" lifestyle, drinking milk after you're weaned is really fucking weird. So is drinking the milk of another species.

Also, labels like "cage-free" and "organic" can sometimes mean very little as far as the actual treatment of animals. It's one thing if it's your neighbor who you've seen interacting with the animals, but it's another thing entirely to buy something at the store with a label that boasts "free range". The problem is more with industrial factory farming in general than with specific practices at particular facilities. Furthermore, many small farms with comparatively humane on-site practices buy animals from larger facilities or work directly with companies whose practices you might find objectionable, which means you're supporting those companies and their practices by buying from the smaller farm.

More generally, I'm suspicious that anyone who can kill an animal for food treated it kindly and compassionately up until that last moment. Does anyone really believe killing something is okay as long as you're nice to it first? How can you have prolonged interaction with an animal, treat it with kindness and respect, knowing that you're going to kill it eventually? It would be like murdering your dog, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Trinity

Why go vegan rather than supporting those who are attempting to create an ethical option in opposition to slaughter houses?

For those who support animal rights, the ethical option in opposition to slaughter houses is to go vegan. Don't get me wrong, free range is probably a little better than the alternative, but I don't really see the point. If treatment of farm animals is something that matters to you, it strikes me as a profoundly inadequate solution.

My girlfriend is a vegetarian. They're fine by me so long as I'm fine by them.

I really struggle with this sort of stuff. I had vegetarianism forced on me as a child, and began eating meat after careful deliberation when I was 18. I've been called "the worst sort of hypocrite" and even "apostate" by veggies and vegans galore for "turning my back". I've known many a meat-eating parent who has respected and supported a child's expressed wits to be veggie (granted, a few who haven't), but never once the other way round.

I've often thought it'd be a deal breaker for me, for a date to say they were veggie/vegan. I don't know really that I could live with somebody who believes that something as fundamental as the food I choose to eat (not out of lazy habit, but philosophical conviction) is "wrong". How could they possibly reconcile that with their own beliefs, without judging me, implicitly, unless it was some condescending "I forgive you for you know not what you do" type gig?

I'm not being snarky here, honestly, this is something I genuinely struggle with, and I'm interested in your point of view if you've found a way to deal with it.

Incidentally, I read recently that tofu is actually worse for the environment than meat - Google it

I've been called "the worst sort of hypocrite" and even "apostate" by veggies and vegans galore for "turning my back". I've known many a meat-eating parent who has respected and supported a child's expressed wits to be veggie (granted, a few who haven't), but never once the other way round.

I've experienced it the other way around, it happens. All it takes is someone believing their lifestyle choice is better than someone else's and thinking they have the right to tell them about it.

I've often thought it'd be a deal breaker for me, for a date to say they were veggie/vegan. I don't know really that I could live with somebody who believes that something as fundamental as the food I choose to eat (not out of lazy habit, but philosophical conviction) is "wrong".

Someone with really strong views will probably feel the same way about dating a meat eater.

How could they possibly reconcile that with their own beliefs, without judging me, implicitly, unless it was some condescending "I forgive you for you know not what you do" type gig?

My partner eats meat, I don't give it a second thought and it doesn't bother me in the slightest, I even cater for him when shopping. Not everyone who is vegetarian/vegan is going to pass on their beliefs to others, maybe it's a Fi v Fe thing, maybe it's just about how extreme someone is in their beliefs but a person who is not in the habit of judging others is hardly likely to make an exception for this with their partner.

Perhaps it's just my background with very militant non-meat-eaters that has me sort of paranoid, a bit, sorta, maybe

And I guess people have all kinds of different reasons for abstaining from meat as well, besides actually believing it's wrong to eat it. Religious discipline is a reason I once subscribed to (during Lent, etc), or health reasons is another one that I might end up going with in the future (hereditary high cholesterol).

I think it depends what your motive is. If you believe it's wrong to kill something that can feel pain and experience fear, then you wouldn't consume any meat/seafood. This could also affect your consumption of other animal products. The dairy industry, for instance, is directly linked to the veal industry and the slaughter of bulls.

If your motive is environmental protection, there's not much difference. It's great if you don't have waste being pumped into the local water source, but you're still using a lot more land and water for food production than with a non-animal-based diet, and you're generating far more greenhouse gas emissions. The environmental concerns are also an issue for those concerned about global hunger.

If you're motivated by health concerns, obviously, the treatment of the animals has little impact. I realize some of these farms may bypass certain hormones and chemicals, but most vegetarians are more concerned about things like cholesterol and saturated fat. The risk of salmonella, pfiesteria, e.coli, etc. is also largely unaffected, though I suppose mad cow disease might be less likely.
If you believe excess consumption of animal products is a public health crisis -- rates of obesity, diabetes, and osteoporosis have sky-rocketed in the past several decades, and heart disease is the leading cause of death worldwide -- then you might feel obligated not to support any consumption of those products, regardless of the source.

If your religion prohibits consumption of certain foods or condemns killing animals generally, the treatment of the animals is usually not relevant.

If your motive is trying to live a "natural" lifestyle, drinking milk after you're weaned is really fucking weird. So is drinking the milk of another species.

Also, labels like "cage-free" and "organic" can sometimes mean very little as far as the actual treatment of animals. It's one thing if it's your neighbor who you've seen interacting with the animals, but it's another thing entirely to buy something at the store with a label that boasts "free range". The problem is more with industrial factory farming in general than with specific practices at particular facilities. Furthermore, many small farms with comparatively humane on-site practices buy animals from larger facilities or work directly with companies whose practices you might find objectionable, which means you're supporting those companies and their practices by buying from the smaller farm.

More generally, I'm suspicious that anyone who can kill an animal for food treated it kindly and compassionately up until that last moment. Does anyone really believe killing something is okay as long as you're nice to it first? How can you have prolonged interaction with an animal, treat it with kindness and respect, knowing that you're going to kill it eventually? It would be like murdering your dog, wouldn't it?

For those who support animal rights, the ethical option in opposition to slaughter houses is to go vegan. Don't get me wrong, free range is probably a little better than the alternative, but I don't really see the point. If treatment of farm animals is something that matters to you, it strikes me as a profoundly inadequate solution.

I'm a vegetarian for those reasons I've highlighted. And I support you in your going completely vegan. I hope I can eventually.

I don't think it is suspicious, however, if one if fighting for a more ethical treatment of animals in the meat/dairy industry. If only it were possible to get the whole of humanity to cut back a little bit of meat from their diets. Humans are, however, omnivores. We require a little bit of meat in our diets. And yes, there are ways around it! Nuts, tofu, etc. But tofu is just as bad on the environment. I could be wrong, but I believe most tofu (soybean) farming takes place where rain forest used to be. I sacrifice my portion of meat product since the rest of the world (as a whole) is incapable of cutting back a little bit.

"I don't know a perfect person.
I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
-John Green

Perhaps it's just my background with very militant non-meat-eaters that has me sort of paranoid, a bit, sorta, maybe

And I guess people have all kinds of different reasons for abstaining from meat as well, besides actually believing it's wrong to eat it. Religious discipline is a reason I once subscribed to (during Lent, etc), or health reasons is another one that I might end up going with in the future (hereditary high cholesterol).

Ugh, I get flak on both ends - from people who want me to be vegetarian and, when I try to cut down on meat, people who want me not to. D:

The Blood Type Diet, although it is not scientifically valid, does serve the same purpose as MBTI in that it helps people to understand that different people might have different dietary needs. And depending on the vegetarian, they are probably not terribly concerned with scientific validity.

The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp