My visit to Ecclesia

This Sunday, I attended the 11:00 service at Ecclesia, a missional, emergent church in Montrose/midtown Houston, or as they describe themselves, a “holistic, missional, Christian community.”

When I have the opportunity (which is seldom), I like to attend worship in other faith communities. I have been on sabbatical in June and July, so have been able to attend several worship services around the country, from Utah to Illinois to South Carolina and Texas. I am usually drawn to larger, more contemporary congregations, because I know the worship quality will be high, and because that is where I can best learn new ways of creating worship in my own congregation.

I’m a little embarrassed to say that Ecclesia was my first venture into an emergent community, even though I’ve been studying and promoting the emergent movement for a few years. It was a remarkable experience. If you live in Houston, you should visit Ecclesia even if their worship style (contemporary) and theology (salvation through Christ alone) don’t speak to you, the place and the experience are worth the visit. You won’t be disappointed.

As I entered the converted warehouse at 2115 Taft St., I was comfortable. The gathering room to the worship space is a coffee shop and bookstore. A good coffeeshop and bookstore run by the staff. As I entered the worship space, it was as I imagined. a large warehouse space with at least twenty foot ceilings, a stage set up for a rock band, and a big screen. Perhaps the most striking images were the painting and sculpture of the cross, side by side on which only Jesus’ hands and feet could be seen emerging. Imagine Hans Solo entombed in carbonite…

This image immediately put me into a state of contemplation and worship. What did it mean? After I stopped thinking of Hans Solo, I considered the Catholic and Protestant versions of the cross, the former with Jesus still crucified, the latter without Jesus. Here was something else altogether, just his hands and feet. The parts that were nailed (but not here), the hands with which he did good works, and the feet that carried him across Judea for his ministry. He was not on the cross, but we were offered his hands and feet as evidence–perhaps a reminder to do good works in our own lives; or a reminder of his impending return; or an offer of salvation. I think the power was in the mystery… This is interesting to me because I recently had someone tell me that the reason my congregation didn’t speak to him was that there wasn’t enough mystery in the worship… Good feedback.

The service began, as you might expect, with excellent contemporary praise music by the band. One of the things that stood out for me throughout the service was the excellent flow of worship. No breaks, no stilted explanations, no “now we’re going to do this or that,” just a natural flow from one element to the next. This was made possible partly because there was no printed order of service (and yet the service was flawlessly planned). Nothing to tell the congregation what was coming next. We weren’t reading along, waiting for the good parts. We were kept engaged by each element, which flowed naturally. Another empowering part of this was the absence of applause. Now, I’m not against applause in church. My philosophy is, “if the spirit moves you,” BUT worship is not performance, and we don’t need to applaud for every element because we liked it. Most churches, mine included, need a better balance. At Ecclesia, the focus was on the atmosphere and experience of worship.

Ecclesia pastor, Chris Seay, led the service. His interpretation of Exodus was engaging and no different from how I would interpret the same stories (Exodus 14 and the parting of the Red Sea). I very much connected the image of being stuck at the water’s edge with Pharoah’s Army bearing down, feeling like there was no way out being exactly where God wants us sometimes. We all certainly find ourselves in that place from time to time. As George Michael sang, “You gotta have faith…”

The most remarkable thing about Ecclesia was the age of the congregation. The average age was probably 27-29, with the mode (most common age) being a few years younger. There were a few old fogies like me too. My congregation has a growing number of young adults, but I thought to myself, “If I was 25 again, I’d probably go to Ecclesia too!” Oh yea, I forgot to mention the energy! One of my failsafe litmus tests for a vibrant, growing congregation is how noisy it is before and after the service. Noise is good. Ecclesia was noisy.

Where Ecclesia falls short both for itself and for me, was it’s theology, which I describe as “salvation only through Christ.” It was as I expected, but the emphasis on Jesus being the ONLY way, not only doesn’t speak to me, but doesn’t speak to a growing number of Americans. Several recent religion research polls, including Barna and the Pew Forum, are indicating that American Christians are becoming more accepting of other paths to salvation. I think Ecclesia would speak to even more people if they practiced and professed a more pluralistic theology and invitation to Jesus. I didn’t take communion because the pastor said explicitly that at Ecclesia they believe that Jesus is the ONLY path to salvation. I believe that Jesus’ teachings are a legitimate path, but not the only. It was at this point that I felt less welcome. Again, I came expecting this, having read their website, but had hoped for a more progressive view of Christianity. There are many who are yearning for such a community, and I think congregations like Ecclesia are in a prime position to engage them.

I know several readers are wanting to hear more about their “missional” focus, and I have to say I didn’t get a feel for that on Sunday. There was statement regarding their missional focus in their bulletin [“We believe that the church exists for the world and not for herself”], but all the activities (save one) listed in the bulletin were recreational and/or for the church community itself. There was no mention of missional outreach projects or opportunities during the service. I’m not saying that Ecclesia doesn’t live up to it’s missional identification, just that this focus wasn’t apparent to me as a visitor. I would think they would want this to be “front and center” at all times.

Even with our differences, I expect I will attend Ecclesia again, and will certainly visit their Clear Lake congregation, which meets at the Vineyard Church on Texas Ave. on Sunday afternoons.

Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to go to Ecclesia, my own home church. I appreciate your willingness to explore and to offer your thoughts so that others can learn about different perspectives, and so that we, as a faith community, can reflect and grow (as in stretch, not necessarily as in expand). The visitor’s perspective is a very valuable one, so thanks for offering yours.

My husband and I were out of town last weekend, so we weren’t at the service you write about. But after going to Ecclesia for a year and a half, I feel I can speak to our “missional focus.” Our church – its leaders and the church body – are dedicated to pursuing social justice through prayer and action. This means we engage in discussions about things like health care reform and how the church has a responsibility to help the sick, while actually sharing meals with the homeless, taking care of the planet and giving our money to projects like well drilling so people in even the remote villages in Africa can feel Christ’s love through a glass of clean water.

When I think about what being a Christian means to me, I often reflect Pastor Chris Seay’s phrase “I/we love Jesus and people too.” And I think that is the real mission of Ecclesia. It is to worship and thank God for the blessings and grace he gives us, while actually loving people even when they fall short (which we all do) and lovingly helping them when they are in need (which at some point we are all).

“I think Ecclesia would speak to even more people if they practiced and professed a more pluralistic theology and invitation to Jesus.”

They’re not trying to speak to more people for the sake of speaking to more people. They believe the Bible is the final word for how to live life. Jesus says, “No one comes to the Father except through me.” Some call that narrow and non-inclusive. Ecclesia and other churches that believe the Bible call it “truth”. Truth is what 20-somethings hunger for in a world where people have ben lied to all their lives.

Hey, Matt. I’m the kid who did the announcements on Sunday at Ecclesia.

I’d love to talk to you more about us, but let me be clear on this: Ecclesia does not attach the labels emergent or emerging to itself. Those labels are either loaded with meaning or completely devoid of it, depending on who you ask. I think the only e-word of value is evangelism, personally.

To us it would be forced mission if all our missions were based around programs. The heart of being missional is that all consider themselves to be missionaries in their daily lives, rather than just when we say they should.

Additionally we don’t believe that to truly be missionaries we ought to conform to values which stand outside of a uniquely Christian redemptive model. No Buddha. No Christ Consciousness. No other means of becoming justified other than the atoning blood of Jesus on our behalf. To be progressive on this would actually be regressive.

Explaining the emergent movement is too much for me to engage here. The best first stop is http://emergentvillage.com. As Houston alludes to, even defining the emergent movement is difficult and something they struggle with.

Houston, I’d be glad to engage in more dialogue with the folks at Ecclesia. Feel free to email me at matt@revmatt.org. Feel free also to engage the readers here about Ecclesia.

It strikes me as very odd that you would attend a Christian church and expect pluralistic doctrine. That is not Christianity. Any church preaching pluralistic doctrine is inherently not Christian, whether or not they use the teachings of Christ as part of their theology.

I understand that there are communities of worship that would employ pluralism and might use some of the teachings of Jesus as a facet of their belief system. But that is a horse of a different color. After all, Christ says, “No one comes to the Father but through me.” The Christian church cannot employ pluralism and remain Christian.

As I said, I “expected” exactly what I experienced. I had “hoped” for more. Actually there are many Christian churches that are more pluralistic. And pluralism takes on many forms. There would have to be an agreed upon definition of Christianity for your claim to be valid. But across sects and denominations, there is no agreed upon definition. If you are not Catholic, would you agree that the Catholic church’s definition that they are the only true Christian church is correct? If you are Catholic, do agree with the orthodox Christian refutation of that Catholic claim?

John 14:6 is the most quoted verse on my blog to say that Jesus is the only path. I have responded many times. You can search my blog with “the indefinite article” to see my response. Basically, the next 11 verses are a panentheistic view which better explains John 14:6. Jesus explains that he is in the father and the father is in him and that the same is true for everyone. Verse 17 finishes with” You know him because he dwells with you and will be in you.” He tells the questioning disciples that they already know the Father because he is in them.

Houston…another question. I found it curious that you rejected the label of emergent for Ecclesia, but Chris has been widely recognized as an “emergent” leader. By association, Ecclesia will be labeled emergent whether or not they choose to wear the label. I think it is actually a positive label….

I’m glad you are using your sabbatical to expose yourself to other assemblies. I’ve never been to Ecclesia but hope to visit one day. It does strike me odd that you would “hope” for more as far as the path to eternal salvation. That seems akin to going to Ben & Jerry’s and “hoping” for something other than cold, creamy, sweet concoctions. I pray you have a chance to keep attending progressive Christian churches.

If there is another way to be saved, why did Christ die on the cross? According to Galatians 2:21, if man could be saved through the law (or anything else) Christ died for nothing! Surely, if a Plan B was available, he could have taken it.

How many religions are there in the world from which to locate the “true” one?

According to David Barrett and team, there are 19 major world religious groupings in the world which are subdivided into a total of about 10,000 distinct religions. Of the latter, there were 270 religions and para-religions which had over a half million adherents in the year 2000 CE. Within Christianity, they have identified 34,000 separate groups (denominations, sects, individual unaffiliated churches, para-church groups, etc) in the world. “Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations.” 1

Religion is a matter of the culture you grew up in and the particular ethnic group within that culture. If you had grown up in Saudi Arabia, you would most likely believe that “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his Prophet”.

All the people who keep telling me that substitutionary atonement through Jesus is the only way to be “saved” (whatever that means???) are driving me further and further away from

I hope this does not sound like I am coming to the defense of the Ecclesia community, but I wish you would have been able to see the missional side more. Maybe you were not looking as close as you thought you were or asked anyone of those around you what may be happening on the missional side of Ecclesia.

If you go in the courtyard of Taft, you would see that it is a major mission field where people of all kinds are able to come together and enjoy each other’s company. When I left Ecclesia after the 9:00am service I notice a member sharing a cup of coffee and conversation with a homless guy who feels comfortable to come to the courtyard to just relax and not feel pressured to go to the service.

The coffeshop and art gallery are a major mission fields. Both are open 7 days a week and draw crouds of all ages and classes. The “warehouse” also serves as a place for classes, co-op farmers market, and dance studio during the weekday that is open to anyone. Up stairs you may find a local or national band recording at the Hyde Park Studio. It is trully amazing what you would find on a weekday at Taft.

Other things that you thought were only for the members are on the contrary very missional. Every Sunday afternoon, several people meet up at Spotts Park to play a friendly game of “Ultimate Frisbee”. Nearly every week we see a new person that just happens to come up to play. The bulletin just serves as one of many ways that this activity is promoted.

Ecclesia also has many organized missions under it including, Center for Student Missions (Homeless), Emmaus Christian Ministry (Caring for men involved in prostition), and Mission Year (Urban Service & Discipleship Ministry) are just a few. I am personally involved in a missional project that focuses on rebuilding, reparing, and restoring the Riverside neighborhood in southeast Houston, and Not to mention there are other global missions like Advent Conspiracy.

In summary, Ecclesia’s missions are very similar to your experience concerning the flow of the worship service. It does not have a script or “read along” that tells you what missions are there or how do get involved, it just simply happens with the direction of Jesus.

I am so glad that you attend the service and overall had a positive experience. When my wife and I moved here, we were overtaken by the comfortable and inviting environment that Ecclesia is and have grown dramatically in our faith by attending. It was exactly what we were looking for, and if were not for someone actually telling us, I don’t know if we would have ever known 2115 Taft hosted a Sunday church service.

“I know several readers are wanting to hear more about their “missional” focus, and I have to say I didn’t get a feel for that on Sunday”

I must say the art work can and does draw the eyes to the wall at Taft. What you missed was who was at Ecclesia (the poor,the needy, the educated, pastors, bikers, the young, the old, every one) and how welcomed they are.

Our church does not clang it’s bells and say look at what we do and this is our mission work now shell out your money as the plate pass.

Ecclesia is a church that is deep and just putting a foot in the door and looking around is like putting a foot in the wave pool at splash town and saying that is all that the park has to offer. I would say it takes a few weeks to get to know and under stand how and what we are.

Ecclesia is not a place where Chris is the pastor and that is it. We have several speakers that server/speak on any given Sunday (David Capes, Jack, Paul the list goes on.) or pastor that come into town from other church’s.

We as a church have a lot that we give and I would like to welcome you to come back and partake in our small groups and what Ecclesia does after Sunday service with simple feest. This way you can under stand and get a feel mission side of things.

Thanks for your explanations of Ecclesia’s mission focus. Let me gently challenge and ask what the effect would be if some of this was a bit more transparent to the first-time visitor? As someone well-versed in churchworks, I can tell you that one of the biggest reasons people don’t stick around is that it was too hard to break through the “code” and to really get integrated. As insiders, we often think we are being very welcoming and transparent, but outsiders don’t always experience it the same way.

Just trying to help because I deal with the same issue in my congregation.

Dear Reverend Matt…I’m so glad you visited Ecclesia (I think I had encouraged you to go during your last sabbatical). I really enjoyed my visit there a while back (although I must admit that the fact that they teach that Jesus is the only way to salvation is one of the reasons why I like the church – perhaps not much of a surprise to you or your readers). I admire your openness to visiting other congregations. I think it says a lot about your willingness to engage in different experiences. Hopefully one day I’ll be able to stop by and visit your church (although some of your members may not be too excited to see me

I guess to answer your question about being transparent to the first-time visitor is to answer by explaining my own personal experience when I first visited Ecclesia.

My wife and I moved to Houston two years ago and visited 2115 Taft a couple of times to get good fruit and veggies from the co-op. I never knew it was a church! Coming from a recent and bad church experience that really led us to move across the country, we were not in a hurry to put ourselves in the same home church position. While listening to Chris on KSBJ talking about Ecclesia, his words really resonated with my heart, so we decided to go visit Ecclesia. After we looked up the address and arrived on a Sunday morning we realized that our co-op was also Ecclesia.

Similar to your experience the first thing that I noticed was the young, loud, and eclectic group of people hanging out in the coffee shop awaiting the service. We noticed how everyone really seemed to care and love on each other. It was very comfortable, authentic, and inviting.

Once we walked into the sanctuary, and I say that loosely, I noticed beautiful paintings and what appeared to be an art gallery on one side and two art pieces on the other side of the cross and what appeared to be Jesus’ hands and feet. It represented to me how Jesus came out of the darkness to open a direct path between God and me.

Chris was out of town on a mission trip to Africa, and elder, Jack Wisdom, was speaking (I still think that is the greatest name for an elder). Not only was I impressed by his knowledge, but also the reading of the word, the community confession, the Eucharist, and the Benediction. All were things that I had recently prayed about and asked God to reveal to me in a more personal and authentic way. After the service I spent most of the day crying.

Rachel and I were not going to jump into Ecclesia head first though. We had done that before in another church, and quickly rose to leadership; before we started to notice that we did not necessary follow the same vision as the “seeker friendly” church did. We kept attending Ecclesia as visitors on a regular basis for nearly a year; we got plugged into a Ecclesia small group and kept studying and absorbing what Ecclesia was about. It was not till nearly a year later did we feel we were ready to make our covenant with Ecclesia and that was spurred on by Chris asking the congregation for help on a mission project. We knew we had found our new church home.

Throughout the time we visited Ecclesia, we never were pressured in to doing “this”, thinking “this” way, attending “this” class. We were just simply led by the Spirit in the direction on how we were to be a part of the church. I am happy to see today that I still see the eclectic crowd of believers that come from many denominational backgrounds and ages who worship together with authenticity and harmony. We attend the 9:00 service now to help with the overpopulation of the 11:00 service (As you can tell parking is an issue). There you will se a much older crowd than at 11:00.

I would hate to speak for the leadership of Ecclesia, but I truly feel that if they were to answer your question, they would do so in a similar way that I did. They would either tell their experience or simply say they were dependant on the Spirit to lead them into transparency. Ecclesia is not right for everyone, but no church is. What really matters is if you are able to get into a church that resonates with your family and your heart. After all, churches are not in competition, we are all the same family under God.

Thanks again for coming for a visit, and if you ever find yourself back at Ecclesia, please seek me out. Our community is very close to each other so ask around, someone is likely know where I am hiding.

You would be welcomed with open arms! As Unitarian Francis David said in the 1500s, “We need not think alike to love alike.” Our diversity and willingness to engage each other (even if we could all be more gentle sometimes) is a strength…Come on down!

Hi Matt! I hope you are enjoying your sabbatical! You may not realize this, but Reverend David Capes, for whom you substituted on my radio show (and will be again, often, beginning quite soon!) is an Elder at Ecclesia!

I am happy you were able to visit last week – I have enjoyed reading your blog for quite some time. I value your insights and I hope to buy you a drink sometime and continue the sacred conversation. We are undoubtedly centered in Jesus but we believe that “Jesus Focus” is ultimately, really a grace focus that allows us to be able to sidestep the dangers of dogma and ‘religious arrogance’.

Unfortunately, you lost me at…”I am usually drawn to larger, more contemporary congregations, because I know the worship quality will be high”….it is rare that hear such arrogant, posturing, elitist comments in the vein of religion! Who are YOU to determine the quality of a worship service? I don’t think our Lord gives points for “quality”, in fact, I think that He enjoys and encourages the poorest of congregations and worshipers in His name. The idea is worship our Lord and give thanks, and continue on to do His works. Not run churches thru a “holiness pageant”. I have a strong you feeling you are of a Checkbook Church, and a good reason why so many have turned away from “mainstream” denominations, and gone to these “low-quality”, more intimate worship sevices. It’s about the worship and fellowship, but I think you have lost that in your pride.

Don’t be deceived by a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.” He did NOT say, “I am a way, a truth, and a life. A person may come to the Father by me, if my way suits him.” You either believe Jesus is the Living Son of the Living God and Savior of the world, or you do not. You either believe with your whole heart that Jesus’ atoning blood paid the sin debt of us all, or you do not. There is no room for anything in between that leads to salvation. Jesus didn’t leave room for that. Mr. Tittle is no brother in Christ and you should never refer to him as such, because he does not believe or teach the truth. He is unsaved and needs to be Enlightened by the True Light of Jesus Christ. If you truly want to be ecclesia in the world, be that Light and Salt to everyone you come in contact with, regardless of the consequences, and regardless of how you think someone may respond, whether positively or negatively. Jesus never sugar coated His message to spare peoples feelings. As a matter of fact, He said things about Himself and others (especially the religious) that were so disturbing, that people would react by wanting to kill him for blasphemy, or they would just walk away and stop following Him. He didn’t change His message and He didn’t go running after those that left. He told the seventy who were sent out to preach to go into a town and preach. If the town heard and obeyed the gospel they would be saved. But they were also told that if they would not hear, to leave that place and shake the dust from their feet as a testimony against them. If we do not go back and begin being the ecclesia as Jesus defined her, teaching and doing as He Himself did, the world will never know the True Jesus. What many wind up with is a religion, so glibly referred to today as ‘christianity’ in our culture, that is as far from Jesus Christ as anything could be, and in no way leads to life everlasting.

My apologies. I did not mean to imply that bigger is better, or the converse, that small-church worship inherently means lower quality. I have attended and served small congregations with high-quality worship.

I do not lead, nor desire to lead, a “checkbook” church, nor do I assume that quality is related to money. Further, it is a known phenomenon that people with fewer financial resources give a greater portion of their income to the church than do people with more financial resources. This is true regardless of the size of church they attend.

What I left out, or should have said, is that these larger and more contemporary (than my own) congregations offer me a better model for where my church is going. I do lead an intentionally growing church. Growth is not about numbers or money. It is about our ability to reach people who need our good news and how those people can most effectively serve the community.

I admit that I do have a bias that, to a certain point, larger congregations are able to do more with their precious resources of people, time, and money, than two congregations of half the size or three of a third of the size. In smaller congregations people generally have to work harder to get the same work done and to have the same impact. This isn’t arrogance, its basic math.

I would say that most who leave a faith, don’t go anywhere. They simply end up unchurched. Many also go to larger inter- and non-denominational congregations. Some, I would guess many fewer, go to smaller congregations. In fact, smaller congregations (fewer than 100 members) are closing their doors in droves across religions. Small congregations can be of high quality and impact, but it is much harder for them to do. Again, not arrogance on my part, just reality.

Where small groups work very well is as ministries of larger congregations because they have both the intimacy of the small group and the resources afforded by the larger organization. All larger churches thrive on small group ministry. They tend to be shallow if they do not have a vibrant small group ministry program.

In all of this, I empathize with small congregations. Again, I have served them. Where I will offer constructive criticism of smaller congregations is in their ability to welcome seekers. They are most often very hard to break into. This is another reason they have a harder time staying open. They don’t attract as many newcomers, and there isn’t as healthy a turnover in the membership. When members die or move away, others don’t fill the pews.

Again, my apologies. It was not my intention to imply that larger congregations are inherently better. They certainly have it easier in many ways.

Dave, I am not a Unitarian, but if you think this is a “Checkbook Church” you couldn’t be more wrong. The church is tucked away from the road, is small and regularly holds garage sales, etc. to raise money. They raised money that way to build their addition and church members maintain the garden, etc. Granted it is not a “store front” church, but if you want to see some REAL “Checkbook Churches” take a drive around Clear Lake and Friendswood. WOW!—–

The idea of the Unitarian Church is to worship the way you feel comfortable worshiping. Period.—–

Mainstream denominations, as you call them, which is what I was raised in, tell you what to believe and that is why so many people have left them.

In Matt’s defense (not that he needs my help, of course) I would like to respond briefly to Jeff, who wrote “Mr. Tittle is no brother in Christ and you should never refer to him as such, because he does not believe or teach the truth.”

First of all, it’s Reverend Tittle, since he actually is an ordained minster (Reverend Doctor, to be precise, since he also has a PhD.) And I think he would be the first to agree that he is not a “brother in Christ”. He is a Unitarian Universalist, which is a non-creedal religious faith. Many in our congregation are in fact, Christians, but I suspect just as many are agnostics or atheists.

I know, my wife doesn’t understand that concept either, but it works for me and many others in our congregation and the more than 1,000 congregations in the Unitarian Uhiversalist Association.

And whether Rev. Tittle teaches “the truth” or not is up to the listener, I suppose. Personally, I’ve learned more of what I consider the truth than I did from any Christian pastor.

I don’t generally respond to proselytizing, but would like to ask that you not speak for the status of my salvation. No, I am not a Christian minister any more than a Jewish rabbi is. I am a Unitarian Universalist minister. I do not claim Jesus as my exclusive personal Lord and Savior. I do follow Jesus’ teachings.

And, in fact, I have been saved and baptized in Jesus’ name, in the Southern Baptist church. I simply left that tradition when I could no longer practice it with integrity.

We actually can’t know if Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” Greek doesn’t really have indefinite articles (“a”) and definite articles (“the”) aren’t always used the same way they are in English and don’t have exactly the same meaning. Further, Aramaic, which is widely agreed to be Jesus’ native tongue, doesn’t have definite articles, and when an appropriate noun modifier is used it can indicate either definiteness or importance. Even if Jesus spoke these words, which emphasis was being given would be impossible for us to determine today without more evidence. It actually gets more complicated when comparing ancient Aramaic and Greek, and one considers that no language translates perfectly from one language to another, a period of oral tradition between acts and writings, an expressed persuasive purpose on behalf of the author of John, the conclusion of many modern biblical scholars that Jesus probably didn’t actually say much if any of what is recorded in John, etc., etc. etc.

John 14:6 is not the only verse in Scripture affirming the exclusivity of Christian faith for salvation–not by a long shot. The number of passages that affirm the divinity of Jesus, His oneness with the Father, His exclusive right to judge humankind, and His justifying work on the cross is overwhelming.

Furthermore, one has to severely brutalize the Scripture text, as well as completely ignore literary and historical context, to glean anything remotely resembling universalism within it.

As to the “expressed persuasive purpose” of John–if the events he recorded were in fact true, why would he NOT try to persuade his audience? If you had a fatal disease, and I offered you the cure, would you reject my offer because my admonitions are “tainted” by a disposition to persuade you not to die?

Moreover, when you invoke “the conclusion of many modern biblical scholars that Jesus probably didn’t actually say much if any of what is recorded in John”, you’re aligning yourself with scholars who reject swaths of biblical material wholesale due to anti-supernaturalist presuppositions and conjectural bias. I challenge any biblical scholar of such a persuasion to give me good cause to reject John, other than a prior assumption that Jesus is not God and miracles are impossible.

I close with two short passages. If you cannot affirm the former, be prepared to affirm the latter.

“Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” – Philippians 2:9-11

“On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'” – Matthew 7:22-23

I didn’t know Ecclesia stands against pluralism and being open-minded to ways other than the sacrificial blood debt theology.

But I am glad I now know. (And to call the human sacrifice blood debt theology as “progressive” would be humorous — if only it could rise to such a level. And then to dress it up in “contemporary” worship is really dishonest, in my opinion.)

Ah, well. Thanks for the piece. Count me in as one of those Christians definitely NOT interested in Ecclesia.

Would we be butchering the English translation or the Greek retelling or the original spoken Aramaic of which there is no immediate record? I don’t doubt that Paul or the author of John or the other gospels believed in Jesus’ divinity. I do think they, Jesus, and the authors of much of the Hebrew scriptures wrote with deeper meaning, nuance, implication, metaphor, and even ocassionally humor than any literal interpretation of any version could possibly reveal at face value. In fact, no scholarly analysis in any field of study assigns infallible truth on the sole basis of face validity. It is but one necessary element. To say that any source declaring its own declarations as true makes it so is just poor scholarship. Religious study is no exception. I believe we really limit the power of scripture when we take it at face value.

Universalism? Try the Beatitudes, the Golden Rule, the Great Commission, most every act of inclusion that Jesus performed and taught…all Universalism.

My apologies. I did not mean to imply that bigger is better, or the converse, that small-church worship inherently means lower quality. I have attended and served small congregations with high-quality worship

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That’s exactly what you said. We are given a choice to believe or not believe that Jesus IS The Only Way to God, the only living God. If you choice to deny Jesus as the only way to God then one day you’ll be proven wrong. Do you really want to take a chance in condemning yourself to eternal separation from the one true God?

—“I know, my wife doesn’t understand that concept either, but it works for me and many others in our congregation and the more than 1,000 congregations in the Unitarian Uhiversalist Association.”- Dennis

So what saves your wife is different than what saves you? So this year’s latest and greatest cure all works today for salvation, but next year there will be a new trend or fad so what provides salvation then may change in the future…so we should leave room for that as well. When did salvation start to mimic fashion trends? I think grape jelly gives me salvation, so does universalism accept my “truth” as well? If truth is relative, it is not absolute. If it is not absolute then anything goes, what works for you, doesn’t cut it for me, but does for my friend and his second cousin down the street. Really? That’s your logic after reading the Bible and Jesus’s teachings in Greek? Well, I guess if 1,000 are churches in America believe that then it can’t be wrong. After all, a mass group of people believing something can’t be wrong since so many people believe it. Oh well, there was that Nazi fad, and the Jonestown thing, and slavery had a lot of followers too, so all of these followings were correct since a lot of people believe they were right. Wow. Beware of siding with the masses just because they are the masses.

I think looking at the three of your comments illustrates that everyone sees what we want to see in the scriptures (the Bible). Of late I have often questioned to myself the accuracy, the historicity, the authorship and cannonocity (is that a word?) of each book I study. I try to be as objective as I can although I’m no expert on textual criticism. I do think its incumbent on all people of faith to know why they believe what they do. However in all that I can’t help but see the scriptures as the Word of God. I know many here would disagree with that assessment and that’s okay. That’s in fact my point.

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You may not see the Bible as the exclusive Word of God, and I believe that’s your privilege under free will, but I and many others here who read your blog do. It is your blog and you can post as you see fit, but if I can recognize your free will to choose to be pluralistic and accept other writings as legitimate, I would hope you could recognize others right to believe in the exclusivity of Christ centered salvation and the Bible as the Word of God without being ignorant.

This illustrates just as much of a narrow view or interpretation of scripture as to say it is exactly what he said. And from a scholarship standpoint is just as disputed. There are many scholars who would completely disagree with your analysis of John’s gospel and the rest of the New Testament.

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I have often read of the openness of UU theology both here and in other writings. In order for you to be true to that philosophy, you must be willing to accept the choice of the exclusivity of Christ by a person of faith as legitimate as well. The fact that I agree with The Van Tillian must be just as TRUE for me as it is NOT for you.

Linda….and I apologized and clarified what I meant and should have said. Yes, we all have freedom of belief (a core tenet of liberal religion), which is why you will experience me here stating and defending my beliefs, critically examining my own faith’s and others’ beliefs, but never condemning someone for what they believe (or telling them they are dead wrong to the point of a fatal separation). I’m good with God and trust that you are too.

I responded to Linda before reading Charles’ and 3cents’ comments. I believe (no pun intended…ok, pun intended) that my response to her partially addresses them too, but let me expand a little…

There are differences between faith and belief. Belief implies truth, faith implies trust. And even belief in a truth doesn’t necessarily make it empirically true. We are mostly talking about matters of faith here and calling them truth. This is a common mistake. In fact the phrase “bona fide” has come to mean in modern American parlance “authentic,” “real.” But what it really means is “good faith.” I recommend the book “Faith and Belief:The Difference Between Them,” by William Smith on this subject.

I don’t think any scholar would say that we can currently know for a fact exactly what Jesus said. That doesn’t mean we can’t believe what someone said he said, or that we cant believe that those recordings are the word of God, we can believe such things. But that doesn’t make them true or false. More accurately, some people have faith in such beliefs. They trust they are true, and can even mount a certain body of evidence to support their claims, but we can’t KNOW exactly what he said because those documents recording his words were not written as complete historical records. Even the doctrines of most major religions hold these “truths” as matters of faith, not as empirical, documented truth.

As I told Linda, freedom of belief is critically important. I don’t deny anyone their right to believe as they will. Indeed, your “truths” may not be my “truths” but they are as critically important to you as mine are to me.

Further, two-thirds of the current world population has chosen a path to salvation other than Christianity or has chosen no path at all. I’d be careful about putting the beliefs that are precious to so many people in the same bowl as grape jelly. I wouldn’t call all of the other world’s religions fads or trends. In fact, Christianity is the youngest of the world’s major religions with the exception of Islam. Unitarian Universalism emerged from Christianity. It’s thoughts are not new, faddish, or trendy either, but have been part of the Christian conversation since its inception.

Yes, I accept that your faith and your beliefs are yours and that mine are mine. I also will examine them all. An unexamined faith is not worth having in my book. One that stands up to continued examination, which Christianity in general (but not in all of its forms) generally does, as do all of the other world’s major religions (again not in all of their forms), is stronger for the examination.

“Mother Teresa was so doubtful of her own faith that she feared being a hypocrite,” CBS News correspondent Mark Phillips reports.

According to Rev. Kolodiejchuk, “the priest who’s making the case to the Vatican for Mother Teresa’s proposed sainthood,” letters he’s gathered which show her doubting her faith right up until the end will help the case.

“Now we have this new understanding, this new window into her interior life, and for me this seems to be the most heroic,” Rev. Kolodiejchuk told CBS.

Excerpts from article:

In a new book that compiles letters she wrote to friends, superiors and confessors, her doubts are obvious. Shortly after beginning work in Calcutta’s slums, the spirit left Mother Teresa.

“Where is my faith?” she wrote. “Even deep down… there is nothing but emptiness and darkness… If there be God — please forgive me.”

Eight years later, she was still looking to reclaim her lost faith. “Such deep longing for God… Repulsed, empty, no faith, no love, no zeal,” she said. As her fame increased, her faith refused to return. Her smile, she said, was a mask. “What do I labor for?” she asked in one letter. “If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true.”