Tuesday, July 2, 2013

[gita-talk] Suggestions for Gita Talk group - Moving Forward

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Recently a highly spiritual, very young sadhak said the following to us.

"I am not very interested in providing answers to any sadhak's questions. Onone hand we ourselves do not properly understand the point completely andsecondly, the person who we are telling, his attention is not on attempting tounderstand, but more on cutting the opposite party. This is what is happeningnowadays. If that same individual finds the same thing by himself, whilereading in a particular book, he honors it and gives it due consideration.However he will not give due consideration to it, in the form of a question andanswer session. This is my personal experience. It is the same in my case,where I value and respect what I read in books."

We may want to look at how to proceed with this group and where we can addvalue, as it appears that many questioners are not quite satisfied with theresponses provided.

We welcome suggestions.......

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

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Hi all I think and have felt all along that the moderator and responders response to the questions posed have stimulated our thoughts to further pursue reading Gita and Swamijis teaching The moderator and responders response can be summarized as they have Performed their prescribed duty without anticipating any fruits There should not be any attachment to why the questionnaire did not follow thru or felt uncomfortable In this case the questionnaire is obliging the readers to improve the thought processes of moderator so there is bilateral benefit There is no question which has no meaning to the individual or society I will not restrict any questions as where would he go other than to disciples of Swamiji and Gita forum to soothe his thirst for knowledge and there by tranquility and peace . Hopefully all Thank you letting us get opportunity to read Gita and discussions Best Dinesh Patel MD

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Respected Moderator,

Hare krsna

Earlier i had sent a write up(continuation to my writing: how Demi Gods have power of see, when Gita states only Krishna has such powers?)

to your respected group hoping that the same will be put in for circulation( to vouch my writing). But the same has been returned to me. But for the last one article other things were put into circulation. I keep writing these kind of articles as and when I get some development in my views after reading GITA. It is to share such development that i keep writing in your Group. i am really thankful to you for putting my earlier writings to circulation. The acknowledgement that people get from the group is a sort of encouragement.

Hence I am a bit disappointed why my previous write up is turned down by the Group. There is nothing written harmfully in that. Again I am sending the write up for your kind consideration and circulation.

with namaskaram

s.vaidyanathan

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||Ram Ram||Its good group . We can ask problems and every one gives answers . But Problem occures when every one tells answers in their way even they dont know what to say here according to swamiji , bhaiji or sethji teachings . I think when any one ask something than we should give him reference of Book of swamiji bhaiji or sethji with page no, Cause they know much more than us and they have written a lot of book which covers all fields, problems and questions of every one's life and mind . if any one can't understand it than we may give explanation .

Agreeing fully with Shree Vyas NBjee, humble suggestion is : When there appears any kutarka in any Question or in any Reply, the Questioner or the Replier might be requested to come forward with practical example instead of wordy argument.

Number of suggestions have been already been given by other Sadaks, some of which are real worth incorporating...you are the best judge to select. I feel Sadak Murari Das, Raina, Sushil Jain etc suggestions are worth giving a thought!

My humble additional suggestion is to incorporate Sadak's Date of posting along with the response whether that may be a Question or, an Answer! This would help ALL to keep a tract record of responses who has written what and when in chronological order!

It has been my experience since my joining the group that negligible number of questioners have reported back their level of satisfaction or dis-satisfaction with the answers they are recieving. This discourages spirit and interest of person who responses such questioners spending lot of tim & energy for this. I must admit Humbly Sadak is an exception in this common non response behavior. Questioner should make it a point to go through the answer and comment about his/her satisfaction/dis-satisfaction at the earliest!

To conclude, I feel it proper to mention that Literal Meaning of B-Gita Verse need be well interpreted before formulating a answer for the question from it. Taking "Karmane Vaa Adhikaraste........ the central point Verse of B-Gita as an example to explain my point.

In common person language and understanding of this verse is KARM KARO, FAL KE CHINTA MAT KARO.... as every mentions!! This can never be the correct interpretation of this Verse! Since, without thinking of sending the Suggestion to you, my suggestion writing is next to impossible!!!

Lord Krishna can never be such a illogical person to tell DON'T THINK OF FAL BUT, DO ACTION ONLY. This is so because without thinking about Fal, truly Karam can not be done!!!!

The correct interpretation therefore, deed be dug out and probably is:

Lord says desire, the conception of Fal produces Action. This is just a natural sequence of cause and effect. But, be careful before selecting your Goal (Fal) viz look for its chances of success/failure, think of proper environment, process, means, not should be injurious to others.... etc. Then fix your Goal after giving full thought, try your level best to achieve the Goal. Till, now everything is in order viz., desire developed, Goal fixed and efforts made! After that God very logically further cautions IF BY CHANCE/LUCK/PRABHDHA OR BY ANY OTHER REASON you don't achieve the set Goal DON'T GET DISHEARTENED! This lord says for two reasons:

1. If you get disheartened, then you would not be able to try again & again and lose the chance of achieving Goal for ever!

2. The success of achieving Goal (Fal) is not in your hand. Only fixing of Goal & Action was in your hand!

Later in verse "PANCHAITANI MAHABHAO KARNANI NIBHODEMAY......" Lord mentions about the 5 reason for success or failure of any Actions!

What I mean to stress upon is, the answer should made after proper understanding the question & the verse used for framing Answer!

Narayana, Narayana

Kuldeep K. Kaul

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Saadhaka agrees to disagree with Shree Murari Dasjee's suggestion for introducing one week's waiting for responses whatever. For Saadhaka, Question and Response are no less related to each other than breathing in and breathing out. No time is to be lost in waiting (who knows when one breaths his/her last?).Our Swamijee also always advocated for jaldeese jaldee (no time lost in waiting).Humbly,Saadhaka

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Gita-talk is valuable spiritual platform where Sadhaks can interact, understand, have more clarity on various aspects of spirituality which can make our lives better, enjoyable, lovable, and take us further in the direction of attaining liberation...

Yes, an assessment of this unique platform is necessary to know if it is fulfilling the purpose it was started with and whether it can be further strengthened in some ways to add value that Sadhaks drive from this platform. A few suggestion are given below:

1. Brief guideline for responding to questions may be necessary: Brief, to the point answers, in few lines based on wisdom of life could add value to this platform.

2. Moderator could trim the size of responses to make them more relevant and meaningful. This increases the responsibility and workload of the moderator. Of course, moderator has to be a enlightened soul, in order to do this value addition.

3. Some kind of categorization of questions/situations could be developed since many a times various questions put up by Sadhaks may be grouped together and responded all at once.....e.g. Generally problems related to family, relationships, death in a family, husband wife issues, sex issues, etc. fall in one category and response has to give clarity on the Self and Wisdom of life...

4. If we work on this seriously, there may be only 3 or 4 types of questions which Sadhaks put up on this platform. a) Personal issues concerning relationships, attachment to near and dear ones, etc. b) Purpose of life, higher dimensions of life, clarity on reincarnation, c) Practicing spiritual wisdom, techniques such as meditation, yoga, seva/service to others, art of giving, etc. d) understanding larger picture, God, the Leela...

5. Responses to each category of questions may be slightly different...in the level of understanding i.e. level 1, 2, 3, 4

Responses should align accordingly for better value addition, meaningful interaction and helping each other to go to next level of understanding...

Thanks for the opportunity...

Sushil Jain

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Dear Sadhaks,It is a good point and needs thoroughconsideration. The origin of less or moreacceptance of answer is directly related to thewho has given the reply. As best governance is andshould be faceless, it is my humble suggestions thatall replies should be read,edited and then put on the platformas reply 1,2,3...etc.. It will make it more subject focused.short and point wise replies should be sought and nolengthy essays.

Hari om,raina

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Hari Om

This Divine Forum is 9 year old. Though times are changing very fast , thisForum has stood firm in its object, format and affiliation. It should continueto remain so. Divine members of this Forum should expect huge onslaught on thisForum because the teachings of Swamiji are direct, revolutionary andcategorically oppose certain evil practices. If Divine Sadhaks care to see thepast trend of questions....it will be revealed that highest questions were onthe topics of:

1. Guru

2 Problems with reference to householder, marital life, service to others.

The views of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj on the above are categorical, clear,unambiguous, relevant and practical....and PERFECT, leaving no scope for theirdenial or ignorance. That is a huge obstacle to organised and disorganised shopkeepers.

Of late, some members have started talking about America vsIndia....unnecessarily. Some are categorical in their conclusion that : Hindureligion/ Sanatan Dharma has failed. Some say : I am good others are not. Somesay : This Forum propagates discrimination of caste, gender !!! ha.....!!!Actually, world today is inhabited by self proclaimed Gurus. When this Forumsays : No Guru is necessary, your Vivek or God only is your Guru....it appearssimple, but it is direct attack on SHOP KEEPERS , on people who have openedshops for God Realisation....Particularly in Americas. Today the Gurus are therein every street and corner of the planet. Mainly, in times to come, the Qs willcome on this topic. The ever increasing membership of this Forum and the perfectsolutions emerging from messages of Param Shraddheya Swamiji appear to theseestablishments of Gurus to be big obstacle in their business. Theseestablishments also propagate BHOGAS , addictions and give false hopes to socalled disciples for a fees. Similarly, caste system laws are also being seenwith criticism....!!! People do not accept that BHOGAS can be renounced. It isnot possible for them to even take a step beyond BHOGA and SANGRAH ! There isno respect to inner eye...everything is outer eye. Our religion is stated to beorthodox and impractical. The fundamentals of our religion are opposed withpetty arguments. What is interesting to note is that criticism to our religionis coming mainly from Non Resident Indians only....understandable !!!!So that ishow it is.

Let us get united...let us be correct, let us impart truth to the world. Let theformat remain as it is. Let us be prepared for more solid attacks. As themembership increases, as the problems to humanity increase, so the need for thisForum increases. As rightly said by Jayantilalji Shah...there is nothing whichis beyond the purview of Holy Gita. This is Gita Talk Forum. Let us continue tobe so....!!!! Let us be ready for any Question.....!!!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Jai Sri Krishna !I am Agree with Honourable Personality NB Vyas and Humbly Sadhak-We should onlyconcentrate on the Opinion of Sethji-Bhaiji-Swamiji and Geeta Press only-I toofound hard to get answer of my question from this forum and suggest to be moreConvinient For Questioner.But I got My answers anyhow and questions are least toask.I am very Grateful to all of you.Basudev

---------------------------------------------------------Humble submission :Gita is claimed to be the only scripture that covers all aspects of human life,hence there shouldn't be any restrictions on what Questions may be asked here inthis forum. Restricting the domain of Questions to mukti, moksha, realization,austerity, spirituality etc. will imply that Gita is not now covering allaspects of human life.Humbly,SaadhakaPlease forgive for poor English.----------------------------------------------------------

As per Shree Vyasjee : This forum is Satsanga Forum.Request is made to Gita-talk Owners to rename Gita-talk as Gita-Satsanga becauseit is satsanga and not now talk any more..Humbly, Saadhaka

------------------------------------------------------------Whereas the sentiment expressed by the Sadhak is very understandable, since thewhole purpose of this forum is honest expression of unresolved conflicts in ourmind when the people with more, better or different onsite in that area expresstheir views. Then Karmanye Vadhikaraste Ma PhaleshuЕ OR as He wishes We imbibe.I sincerely wish that the Young Highly spiritual Sadhak would continue toprovide because who knows in such forum who benefits and how much.Hemendra

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Om Namo Narayana

I have been reading the posts in this group for the last eight years and havegained immensely. It not only clears doubts but also forces one to rethink someof the preconceived notions/interpretations, etc. If we are truly seekingself-realisation, how does it matter what is the source of the awakening orinspiration? For beginners like me, reading, understanding and analysing thescriptures on one's own seems daunting at timesЧthis forum addresses the myriadquestions that come to the mind. Truth needs no justification or support, itexists regardless of allЧit is for the seeker to exercise his/her free will andchoose accordingly. The present format holds up the truth and nothing but thetruth...so my vote is for the format to continue as is...

Sadhak Sharmila

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Here is another suggestion --

Post the questionWait for 1 week for members to respondPost the responsesWait for another week for members to respond.Post the responses.

Wait for another week.Close the topic if there is no response from questioner.Close the topic if questioner is satisfied.Continue the topic if questioner needs further clarification. Got to step 1 ifquestioner responds.

What if question results in more questions from the reader?If reader's response require further clarification or if there are furtherquestions on reader's responses, then another thread should be opened.The thread from the questioner should be closed in 2 weeks if questioner doesnot respond or questioner is satisfied.

What if other sadhaks have same question and even though questioner is notresponding, other sadhaks doubts are not resolved.My suggestion is that the question should be posted with new sadhak's name andthen, it will be his responsibility to respond and tell if his doubts areresolved.

If you like my suggestion, then I have few more ideas. Don't want to waste mytime if this won't be implemented.

Regards,Murari Das

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Hari Om

This forum is Satsanga Forum. It has no other agenda or motive except Satsanga.It is not some social reform outfit, it is not some charity outfit, it is notsome political forum....it is pure, unadulterated, only SATSANGA FORUM. HereSatsanga also has its own class which emerges effortlessly out of teachings ofParam Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj....one of the Greatest Saintsof Sanatan Dharma. It is that class, it is that selfless motive which makes thisSatsanga Forum to be truly a unique Satsanga Forum. Swamiji once said: AsKaliyuga spreads its wings, people with Demonaic properties will inhabit theearth in abundance, and that day is not far when there will be no Holy Ganges onthe planet, all teerthas except Kashi and Vrindavan will return to their abodes,the publications by Gita Press Gorakhpur will cease...etc. Now this is scene oftime. In this backdrop, I do not see any any reason to make any changes in theexisting format of this Divine Forum.

Sure...there will be attacks on this Forum too. People will try to firstindirectly and then directly attack teachings of Swamiji and Holy Gita also. Itherefore do not get shocked when I see the recent phenomena on this Forum. Herewhat is being talked? It is impossible to renounce BHOGAS. Did Swamiji ever sayso ? I am also finding that some people say ...Swamiji said so ..while actuallySwamiji did not say so. Now these type of things should be expected to increaseon this Forum. We have to suitably reply them and impart truths. As we all knowand discussed too..we should not worry as to whether the other person issatisfied with our reply or not...we should continue to impart truth. That isour duty...that is our goal. Let us therefore keep deliberating, keep speakingSat and never worry. Let me reassure all members of this Divine Forum: IT ISIMPOSSIBLE TO FIND A FAULT WITH MESSAGES OF SWAMIJI SHRI RAMSUKHDASJIMAHARAJ...IMPOSSIBLE ! HE IS PERFECT ....AS PERFECT AS GOD HIMSELF.

Hence keep going Divine Sadhaks...We are in Satsanga ....LET TRUTH PREVAIL. Keepthe format AS IT IS. Let any number of Qs follow. Keep SAT in focus. Never writeanything in the name of Swamiji unless you are sure about the same. We may giveour views freely, but to say that Swamiji confirms your views, if that isincorrect then it is sin. Let us have that discipline and moveahead...fearlessly !!!

The text, whether from a book or from Geeta Q&A, is important. The questionershould read thetexts from the replyers carefully. Most of the replies are in the form ofadvices. It is veryeasy to advise others, but difficult to bring those advices into practice.

So, I feel, let us continue as we are doing now. Only thing is that we must becautious inasking questions and giving answers.

Gee Waman

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Questions should be restricted to concepts dealt with in Geeta. Questionershould clearly state that while reading this holy text, I am unable tounderstand meaning or how to implement study of Geeta in life with Spiritual andMaterial advantage; or else I am faced with this problem and seeking advice fromparticipants how to solve this or face this in accordance with teachings ofGeeta. Any question outside the text although may be important in some othercontext, should be discouraged. As Gandhiji and Vinobaji have summarised byexhaustively studying the book and making sincere efforts to live up to it, andhave categorically stated that there is no question in life either political,social , health problem or spiritual development whose solution is not found inBhagwad Geeta. I confirm this statement independently by my experience of last75 yrs.I was brought up in Saurashtra then Kathiawar ruled by number of native princes.Maharaja Bhagwatsinhji of Gondal under whose jurisdiction my town Dhoraji came,was deeply immersed in teachings of Bhagwad Geeta. As our school which wasaffiliated to then Mumbai University did not have place for Geeta in curriculumtill Matriculation, he introduced Bhagwad Geeta as an optional subject fromStd.6 onwards. To encourage students to learn Geeta, he even instituted a schemeof scholarships to those who opted for this subject.I write this to state that he was greatly influenced by Gandhiji work in manyfields like political, social and spiritual and emphatic statement of Gandhijithat Geeta provided solutions to questions in all fields of life.Hence in this Satsang Group, questions should be restricted to Bhagwad Geetaonly or any question asked by Sadhaks should be replied by citing authenticverse from Bhagwad Geeta. Also wherever possible, questioner should contact theanswerer to develop further.Jayantilal Shah

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Jai Hanuman

There is nothing wrong in the existing format of this Forum. I have no doubtthat with extensive teachings of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, Holy Gita,Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma and of Saints and Sages of our Eternal Religion (Tulsidasji Maharaj, Mira Bai, Valmiki, Naarad, Jaidayalji Goendka, SharananandjiMaharaj , Bhaiji Hanumanprasadji Poddar etc) ....there is no question which cannot be answered on this Forum. It is a service of very high order and of coursethis Forum is SATSANGA Forum. Hence fearlessly , we must continue AS IT IS.

The present phenomena caused by Sanjeev, Murari Das and GB is too novice anattack on this Forum. Here more prominent has been few facts only- like how isone's mother, daughter or family ; how one enjoys both east and west; where doesobe lice, few quotes from Bhagwatam and few blanket remarks..,. That is it !.The aggression in Sanjeev proved to be short living. It was to be so but theintention is very clear. Here this man claimed before 30000+ learned members ofthis Divine Forum : I HAVE RETURNED TO EARTH AFTER 8000 YEARS TO DISPELIGNORANCE.....!!! Divine Sadhaks...in times to come...you shall have more moresuch claims, more such attacks, more such self proclaiming people.

Hence, Divine Sadhaks should be very vigilant and ready for more onslaughts onthis Forum, not because this Forum has done something wrong...but because wehave more negative humans today who relish anti-God talks and bhoga. Theassociation with 'material world' is also aiding to the same. The GARMI (ahankaar) of living say in America or abroad is getting exhibited in a dirtymanner yet...but as this Forum does not believe in Guru cult which is spoilingthe very basis of spirituality today...you should expect more such attacks.Divine Sadhaks must understand that livelihood of many Gurus gets on stake, whensuch Forum , with ever increasing membership, silently imparts the truth.

Good...that for time being there is peace again !!! But , surely, more organisedattacks can be expected...!!! This one was too weak, insignificant and shortlived. At least when one opposes, some face savibg substance should be there,there was none this time.

Namaste Jee

Jee JeeShashikala

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Dear Sadaks,Questions to be related to values of spiritualism. Like if one asks- what will Iget if I realize? Do not answer or post the question. Reason selfishness.Whatever cost I want to realize- How? Post the question. My son does on believein idol worship? Do not post the question as it is the responsibility of fatherto first have knowledge and then ask us. We cannot peel the plantain for thatfather. Sant Ramanujar wanted to know the concept of "Om Namo Narayanaya". Heserved his Guru for years, then Guru taught him. The guru wanted to see thedepth of faith and then teach his disciple. Swamy Chinmayanadha went to SwamySivanandha asked his to upadesh on self realization. He was asked to come aftertwo years. Chinmayanandha went exactly after 2 years. The swamy said to him tomeet his Guru Tapovan Maharaj at tapovan. He traveled by foot those days 7 days.Tapovan Maharaj said to get letter from Swamy Sivanandha. Back 7 days and back 7days to tapovan. Chinmayanandha was enlightened.Only for Moderator I reply these and above.Dharmaraj was asked by his Guru to travel 2 days and get bad people. Duryodhanwas told to travel 2 days to get good people. Dharmaraj came back and saidNobody is bad. Duryodhan back and said NO ONE is good. Swamy Tejomayananthasaid:- Arjuna declined to fight because he discrimination of his own people.Arjuna faught Gandharas without slightest discrimination and NO question asked.Sri Krishna NO discrimination. Raaga and Duveasha are 2 big walls crushing us.Seeing Bagavan Shiva amides two horns of bull in front Bagavan Shiva in templeis a ritual. But we dont know we can see Bagavan Shiva only when Raaga andDuvesha left. Many woman does NOT know husband is alternate roop of Bagavan.They need not do pooja. It is from Sri Dharam script. Those days chaste womancould make sun stop. I know a woman so chaste today that if she says rain andrain comes. Another aspect our people fail to realize. See Sai Baba, Ramana,Chirst, Pakad Baba, hati ram baba, samartha ramados pictures. They are not welldressed- do not wear gold ornaments, looks like begger etc. But see today swamiwith glossing cloths, hitec car, etc and people fall behind them. We cannot findfault as that is Kaliyug. Kalipursh (Demi God) put question to Dharmaraj. Anelephant went through eye of needle but tail was caught. Dharmaraj then onlyknew it is Kalipurush and Kaliyug starting and they have to leave. The elephantis big big crimes today will pass through easily, but small and poor will becaught and jailed. May be I am boring; Namaste.B.Sathya

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Moving individually on spiritual path is not that easy as walking in a park.When one finds it difficult to take the group (masses) on walking in a park asper own norms, what ease is there on spiritual path for it?Humble suggestion is, pick up all good found in satsang for own good use insteadof trying to lead the group in any direction [Someone read on entrance of asatsang hall - krupayaa jnaanakee baaten yahaan na karen, yahaan aanewaalesabhee ekase badhakar ek jnaanee hain].Better it would be to move with the group and not to try to move the group withyourself, letting go all that is not agreeable to your own norms.Humbly,Saadhaka

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>> On one hand we ourselves do not properly understand the point completely and>> secondly, the person who we are telling, his attention is not on attemptingto>> understand, but more on cutting the opposite party.

Is the person who wrote the comment trying to force his views on the questioneror other readers? Does this person understand the point himself? Is this personrespectful to questioner's views?

I can take my example. I agree with most views expressed in sadhak messages. ButI cannot agree with exploitation of weak people based on race, caste, gender,sexual orientation or any other outwardly attribute. One example is caste systempracticed by Hindus. I don't agree with the position of women in Hindu society.Some followers also try to deny happiness and become depressed in name of sensecontrol. I believe that spirituality and dharma is supposed to increasehappiness of the self, family and the whole society. One should not use dharmato propagate suffering, unhappiness and cruelty.

If someone propagates above views and forces upon others, then I cannot agreewith that person. It becomes serious if some commentator (like Vyas) who appearsto be quite knowledgeable of Gita propagates these kinds of views. Such personcannot force us or any other sadhak to accept something which is against theirconscience.

Sri Sankracarya writes in Bhaj Govindam:

The same God dwells in absolutely everyone, where is the reason for anydisagreement. Bar none. See the identical soul in everyone. Come off yourconditioning.

Lets see the identical soul in everyone and respect other views. Lets respectthose who don't understand Gita and trying to do it. We don't have to understandall the topics perfectly. We have this birth and many other births. So, letslook at eternity of the self and not get frustrated and not be judgmentaltowards others.

Regards,Murari Das

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Hari Om

So long as the Questioner is willing to attend and respond , let us tell himabout the truth. The moment he does KUTARKA ( bad arguments) , I will tell himthis is KUTARKA, and stop responding. His last message Kutarkas are ignored.(see details in thread - Main Obstacle to God Realization is Attraction toSense Pleasures).Answers to your further Qs will be given only upon receipt of response by you tothe above.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------------------------------------Today most of us are in a very disturbed mood being in a highly vitiated atmosphere with widespread corruption and not following ethics and values in our career etc. For instance recent incidence of one CEO being dismissed for his (supposed to lead from the front being the leader) immoral activities. Apart from reinventing ourselves so as to remain relevant we also need to goad and guide the youngsters who are future nation builders. Hence my suggestion would be, , while continuing to answer sadhaks queries lets share few anecdotes from our great epics so as to convey the message (like Ravana for abducting Sita amma) of what lies in store for us if we deviate from the path of Dharma. With respectful regardsDrAJagan Mohan Reddy

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Hari Om

Your very highly spiritual and very young Sadhak is right. No one on this earth,including God Himself can make another person understand/accept something, ifthat another person is not willing to understand or accept. Saints, Scriptures,Teachers, Satsangis can tell you truth, but to accept the same or not IS THESOLE RESPONSIBILITY AND WILL of the individual. Revered Swamiji once stated thecharacteristics of a fool...He said: A fool has two traits- 1 He himself doesnot know / understand ( KHUD JAANATA NAHIN) 2 He does not heed to the others (DOOSARE KI MAANATA NAHIN ) !!! One who has these two qualities is called FOOL.Some listener asked then to Him: Swamiji...persons with above two qualities arein abundance, in every home...now how to make them understand the truth..becauseeven if God Himself comes and tells him the truth, a fool will not understandbecause he does not heed others, and God is other. Great Saint smiled andreplied: MOORKHANAAM AUSHADHAM DANDAM ( only medicine to cure a fool ispunishment ). Hence it is Mother Nature only which produces a punishment for afool and that only can cure the person with above characteristics. There aremany verses in Holy Gita also which define persons of the above two typicaltraits. BG 16:8 / 9 and 18:32 readily come to memory.

I request Moderators to continue with this thread till the Questioner is fullysatisfied. I request the Questioner to freely deliberate on the subject and givereasons for non acceptance. Whatever you have stated so far, We shall try toanswer. Problem is singular: No one can make other accept a thing. We candeliberate, argue, but acceptance is sole prerogative of SOUL. Do you know DearQuestioner that SELF can only accept or reject and can do nothing else? Are youaware about this...? Know now this fact through this Divine SatsangaForum...!!!! Nothing in this world, no body can make other accept or reject. YouYOURSELF only can accept or reject. Still we shall try to give reasons to you sothat realisation may dawn upon you, God willing.

1 SHRUTIS say : EKAKI NA RAMATE ( God did not relish being alone). Hence out ofHimself only He created this Universe for PREM . All Jeevas are direct fragmentof God. Your Q is what is the cause of Creation of this world. Answer is : PREM( Love). He created the world for PREM.

2 How can you say that by God Realisation you do not get enriched? Have yourealised God? No...! Then where is basis for your statement? Experiences ariseout of acceptance effortlessly...It is a law. Acceptance is the only cause foryour experiences. argue on this law...if you can !!! A thing which ariseseffortlessly can not be your goal. Your goal has to be acceptance of TRUTH. Canthere be any better experience than the experience of PREM? Tell me...! ThisPREM effortlessly arises in you, when you accept the truth: I AM GOD's , ONLYGOD IS MINE, NOTHING ELSE IS MINE. Try it...not only you but everything aroundyou shall get effortlessly enriched. Or tell me any other way by which so calledhumanity or civilisation can get enriched. Now answer...!

MIRAGE....what a beautiful word you chose. But there is one error not in theselection of word by you but in its application. Mirage is not God but theworld...!!! HA...!!! You prove how God is MIRAGE or shall I prove how this worldis a mirage ? You choose who should initiate the deliberations. Ideally youshould set the ball rolling. Now answer....!

3 Those who do not have anger, those who love others, those who get pained bysorrows of other....if according to you those people are disastrous forsociety...then tell me What kind of people are not disastrous for society? Nowanswer....!!!

4 Renunciation is not a loosing battle if your acceptance is real. Youracceptance of false is real. Is not a dream real when you are dreaming? Is notexperience of a snake in a rope real when you have accepted the rope to be asnake? Is not your acceptance of world real ? If that is real then how rejectionis unreal ? Now answer....!!!!

5 It is a law ( Come on Dear Questioner..!!! .) - You can not enjoy a thing , ifyou are aware that the same is KHSANABHANGUR ( perishable/ momentary). It is alaw....Man !!! Now you prove how can you enjoy a thing unless you presume thatto be permanent. Else I shall tell you how the aforesaid law is LAW !!! It isnot the biggest folly of Indian philosophy....but if you have accepted that tobe so, it may be a biggest foolish acceptance from your end...!!! Nowanswer....!!!

6 Are you dead or alive ? Now answer...!!!

7. Elucidate. So far your statement is incomprehensible. Who is Sherlock Holmes?What does he do ?

8. Who is giving lectures to whom? We are answering your Qs. You invited us toenrich you. We are doing so. Of course, both acceptance and renunciation areeffortless. They are KARAN NIRAPEKSHA. What efforts you made to renouncechildhood and adopt youth or renounce youth and adopt old age? What efforts doyou make live or die? What efforts did you make to accept the world as me ormine? What efforts do you make to get connected or disconnected with body?

Entire para about knowledge is childish and irrelevant. It proves nothing. DidEinstein say God does not exist? Why do you consider Einstein to be yardstick ?What is the topic under deliberation? Can a child understand value and taste ofmango if it does not give up eating clay? How can perishable satisfyimperishable?

Let us see how the Learned Questioner is falling within definition of Gita 18:32!!! There is nothing wrong in permanent element getting satisfaction only bypermanent. It is COMMON SENSE ! But Questioner says: I challenge the assumptionthat "for pleasure to be pleasure it has to be permanent"..,.this is REVERSEINTELLECT. Questioner's insistence on VERIFICATION OF ASSUMPTIONS .,,,!!!Ha..Questioner is advised to verify his own assumptions first...once he doesthat...whole mirage will disappear. Worldly pleasures are not MAYA, youracceptance of them to be real or permanent us maya. Renunciation of falseacceptance is not maya, your acceptance of false to be real is Maya. Read.,.OQuestioner... Ponder over.,.THINK ...!!!!

O Dear Questioner ! You are calling God as mirage and world to be real !!!Totally reverse is the truth. Know now: The world is brought into existence dueto spiritual ignorance/stupidity. There is not even a little Reality there.Satsanga discusses thus. The non discriminating quarrel about it. This world isan event of a dream. What have you found in this world which is not transitory?Life is as transient as the drop of water dangling at the sharp corner of ablade of grass..,do you know? It is possible to encompass the air, break the skyor string together the waves BUT not stay forever in life !!! You are talkingabout sensual pleasures ? Oh....!!! In the string-tossed bodily cage of thepuppet doll of flesh, endowed with muscles, bones and joints, of a woman or aman, WHAT GOOD IS POSSIBLY THERE? Tell me.,,.! See if it is pleasing afterseparating the skin, flesh, blood, tears, eyes etc??? Why are you deluded invain ??? Insufficient is childhood, it is forcefully devoured by youth. Thelatter is eaten away by old age. See this mutual cruelty. In old age, heartburns indeed due to his poor capacity to enjoy !!! The cat that is old age, eatsthe rat that is youth and you say I wanna enjoy this ? Incapacity, calamities,thirst, dumbness, perplexed intellect, covetousness, restlessness and dejection- all these exist in childhood. Appearance of youth is bright only for a moment,which is temporary like the trembling and deep thunder of the clouds and thelustre of lightening and of course , Inauspicious. It is pleasing only at thecurrent moment ! Not aware...??? Of what avail is wealth , of what use iskingdom and what avail are body and things sought for? O Dear..even within acertain number of days, time destroys everything. The God of Death, of cruelbehaviour , reducing to infirmity the body , swallows the mass of living beingscontinually, JUST AS: A serpent swallows the air !!!

And you compare these bondage creating flashes of non existent pleasures (actually only pains exist there all along..pure unadulterated pains and nothingelse except pains. It is stupidity that makes us see pleasures there ) withBLISS associated in God realisation !!! How funny !!! Aaaah ...!!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Vyas >> People will try to first indirectly and then directly attack teachings of Swamiji and Holy Gita also.Shashikala >> The present phenomena caused by Sanjeev, Murari Das and GB is too novice an attack on this Forum.

Misinterpretation of teachings of Gita should be clarified. Teachings may be right. But they can be used by wrong people to inflict more suffering and abuse. Then, that also needs to be clarified. The main principles of Krishna's message should be clear.

рд╢реНрд░реВрдпрддрд╛рдВ рдзрд░реНрдорд╕рд░реНрд╡рд╕реНрд╡рдВ рд╢реНрд░реБрддреНрд╡рд╛ рдЪрд╛рдкреНрдпрд╡рдзрд╛рд░реНрдпрддрд╛рдореНредрдЖрддреНрдордирдГ рдкреНрд░рддрд┐рдХреВрд▓рд╛рдирд┐ рдкрд░реЗрд╖рд╛рдВ рди рд╕рдорд╛рдЪрд░реЗрддреНредредIf the entire тАЬDharmaтАЭ (spiritual and moral laws) can be said in a few words, then it is - that which is unfavorable to us, do not do that to others. (Padmapuraana, shrushti 19/357-358)

The above verse quote by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Sadhak-sanjeevini clearly states how social principles should be implemented. . You should treat others the way you want to be treated. Do not treat others the way you donтАЩt want to be treated

I am not sure how showing that Gita teaches us to treat others with love, respect, care, service and compassion is onslaught on the forum. It is good to talk about sense control etc but these principles of love and respect should not be violated. They come first. What is the use of BIG philosophy when one cannot follow simple principles of truth, love and respect.

тАЭрдЕрдпрдВ рдмрдиреНрдзреБрд░рдпрдВ рдиреЗрддрд┐ рдЧрдгрдирд╛ рд▓рдШреБрдЪреЗрддрд╕рд╛рдореН | рдЙрджрд╛рд░рдЪрд░рд┐рддрд╛рдирд╛рдВ рддреБ рд╡рд╕реБрдзреИрд╡ рдХреБрдЯреБрдореНрдмрдХрдореН || тАЭayaс╣Б bandhurayaс╣Б n─"ti gaс╣Зan─Б laghuc─"tas─Бm | ud─Бracarit─Бn─Бm tu vasudhaiva kuс╣нumbakam ||"This one is a relative; this other one is a stranger" is for the mean-minded. For those who're known as magnanimous, the entire world constitutes but a family.

LetтАЩs treat all people as they are our own family. Let us not change the principles of Gita.

I would like Gita Talk moderators to come forward and clearly state their understanding. From childhood, I treat the others the way I want to be treated. At least I donтАЩt treat others the way I donтАЩt want to be treated. God within me taught me this principle and it has been the principle of my life which I cannot violate. I am very glad that Swami Ramsukhdasji/ Padma Purna / Mahabharat agree with me. If Gita-talk moderators don't agree, please clarify it. At least that way you will be truthful and you will be standing for what you accept as truth.

It is very important part of Krishna's teaching that He is within us and He guides everyone from within. Gita-Talk and other mediums are ultimately facilitators but God within us (cetya-guru) should be ultimate arbitrator of dharma. Let us not force anyone to follow anything which is against their conscience or God within. One might be wrong in the beginning but if one continues to follow one's inner guru, one will come to right understanding. Lets encourage all to truly follow their conscience. Padma Purana verse above is telling us the same thing. See within how you want to treated. See within how you don't want to be treated. Then, act how your inner conscience tells you. We all should follow the same principle and continue to check our understanding with God within. God within continues to teach me everyday and every moment and I find his teachings to be dynamic. The way I see reality now is much different than what I used to see 5 years ago and my realizations will continue to change in this lifetime and future lifetimes. Let us be respectful towards God within all beings and His guidance to them when we write in this forum.

Truth cannot be explained in the words. So, claiming that one person or one book has explained the truth is not correct. One should not claim that one can explain the truth in words as truth is beyond the words. Actually, it can be only negated by words instead of being explained by words.

It is very sad that Vyas etc believe that they know Gita/ Swamiji/ Bhaiji / Sethji. They can outwardly quote passages from their teachings. I might be wrong but it seems to me that still they don't realize the truth. The way they write they act as if they know all the truth. Greatest danger comes from the people who pose as know-er of truth even thought they don't know it.

Side topic regarding Sanjeev's question - I can quote many statements of Swami Ramsukhdasji. Swamiji is very clear that "attraction to sense pleasure" is not within us. Gita 2nd chapter states that accepting self as body is ignorance. Same way, accepting sense pleasure is part of one's self is ignorance. It does not matter whether one engages in sense pleasure or not. Both people below are ignorant:

1) One who accepts sense pleasures are part of him and outwardly control them.2) One who accepts sense pleasures are part of him and outwardly engages them.

Both #1 and #2 are ignorant. More important is to accept that sense pleasure are NOT part of us. Teachings of Swami Ramsukhdasji are not focused on action but focused on inner state of knowledge of self. Message to Sanjeev was not presented correctly and therefore, he had problems accepting it. Some people say that #1 is better than #2. That does not make sense and that is why Sanjeev asked question. Teachings of Swamiji are very easy to accept if proper teachings are presented in correct way. They can be hard to realize but I am sure that as long as we accept them, we will realize them in due coarse of time.

One may ask that why I wrote about actions in the beginning of this email (respect, love, care, service etc) instead of accepting self as not body. The reason is follows:

Those people who see тАЬself as not body and see self (or God) as pervading in allтАЭ will not have sense of me and mine. They will automatically see all as one big family. Their outward action will automatically be of love, care, respect, service, truthfulness and other beautiful qualities. From material perspective, these qualities are needed to live in society. So, these qualities should always be followed whether we are in knowledge or ignorance.

Regards,Murari Das

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Dear Sadhnak,Information becomes knowledge when we get right experience, no mater theinformation comes from reading a book by self or by means of que-ans or by justlistening the truth.If the person is discussing, or cutting others point , it is good, it shows thatthe person is really interested in getting the point or at least he/she has someinformation which while discussing/arguing becomes clear in his/her own head.Some day with right experience it will become part of his/her own being, andhe/she will taste the Truth .Open discussion forum such as Gita gr provides aplatform for all seekers to discuss in depth solutions provided in scripturesfor all real life problems, o if we are willing, we can be benefited, if we arenot willing, no one can help.Love, respect and blessings,Sadhna

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Hari: Om,It is natural to have doubts in a serious seeker. Therefore, a spiritual mastershould not disappoint such people by discouraging questions. No doubt, thereare people who pose questions not for their understanding but to measure theknowledge of the master or to impress others with their knowledge. A spiritualmaster can understand from the nature of the question, the intention of thequestioner and accordingly respond to his queries. From satsangs we getspiritual knowledge in bits and pieces and, therefore, question answer sessionshould be an integral part after Satsang. Anyone one with intellectual masteryover philosophy (there are many Deepak Chopras like men and women in the market)can preach values but to satisfy a real seeker and to clear his/her genuinedoubts, question/answer should not be discouraged, otherwise it could bemisconstrued to mean that the master is a mere "His Master's Voice" anddisinterested in the real spiritual progress of his followers.Coming to the subject that "main obstacle to God realization is attraction tosense pleasures" is correct. Study of Vedanta helps the seeker's over indulgencein sense pleasures. In fact as Swami Chinmayanandaji has stated "Vedanta doesnot teach us to keep away from anything, but to keep in tune with everything".Ignorance of one's Self, role of objects, misunderstanding that the pleasurelies in the object etc. etc. are the reasons for our failure to face lifeintelligently and fall pray to captivation of senses. Hinduism is a way ofliving and one who follows it with proper understanding can avoid a lot of fall,disappointments and displeasures in life.Mohanair

----------------------------------------------------jai shri ram

Agreed with Vyas NB.

I myself following this group from last 4-5 years. I think we should continueas we are.No doubt people will come back with counter attack on teachings of Shradhey ShriRamsukhdas ji & geeta.

But fortunately we have many Sadhaks in this forum who can deal with thiscounter attack & answer clarely.

What i feel...

Its same Bramh who is asking question in this forum and its the same Bramh whois answering in this forum.

In this kalyug its some how difficult to get the correct direction inspirtualism. Its natural if some one have many questions (one after one) Imyself had many & some of them been answered by this forum.

If the enlighten Sadhak's will stop answering then where people like me will go.Who are busy in daily life have No physical Guru,chant only Ram naam & read somebooks on spirtualism.

Its true that every answer is in Geeta but not every Sadhak is intelligentenough to get that answer from Geeta.It does require God grace too..

With the help of this forum Sadhak's can give them answers or explain the Geetain a more better way so that they can understand.\

May be I am being imotioanl here but i would again request that do not put anyrules in this forum.

Please dont let the kalug effects in this forum...

Jai Shri Ram

Ami

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Jai Hanuman

No one can make another understand anything or any truth unless another iswilling to understand. The independence of human birth lies there in ACCEPTANCE.This entire creation is output of acceptance only. It is due to our faultyacceptance of world as real, that we suffer the cycle of birth and death; it isour acceptance that is sole reason for our sorrows. This acceptance of unreal asreal takes place from SELF and it is SELF only who is capable of RENOUNCING thisacceptance of false. The learned questioner here has accepted the false to be soreal that the real is appearing as false....and that precisely and squarelyfalls within purview of Holy Gira verse 18:32 ! Actually, the sole cause of thisacceptance of world ( Gita 7:4/5) is AGYAAN/ STUPIDITY. When you get hugelyentangled in the MIRAGE of this creation, 18:32 of Gita, is natural outcome.

When for the first time we grasped this principle body/world being differentthan SELF...it was unbelievable. But one progresses, starts discriminating, seesthe momentaryness of the creation equanimously, you acquire capability ofrenouncing false acceptance. Learned Questioner can only be given reasons,logic, rationale but to accept or not accept is sole willingness of theQuestioner.

What if the Questioner accepts the truths and renounces the false? He will getliberated. What if he does not? He shall continue to remain bondaged !!!Satsanga can only impart truths...NO ONE CAN MAKE ANOTHER UNDERSTAND...NO ONE,INCLUDING GOD !

God can, but why He should? God never interferes in the INDEPENDENCE of Jeeva.But Mother Nature does that. More you accept false, more sorrowful you get. Thelaws of Mother Nature are such that disconnection starts from the very moment ofconnection. Mother Nature keeps giving you signals regarding perishability,KSHANBHANGURATA of the world but our solid acceptance of world as real does notlet us appreciate the TRUTH.

This solid acceptance is output of stupidity and nothing else..,because thereare SHRUTI ( History/ Scriptures), YUKTI ( Logic/rationale) and ANUBHUTI (direct experiences of perishable, momentary world) to guide us....but ALAS..,BG18:32 !!!! Only Nature can cure stupidity and no one else.