Ours:Protection, 2P -- Your Judgement ability now also grants a physical absorb shield equal to 30% of the damage it dealt.Protection, 4P -- Reduces the cooldown of Divine Guardian by 60 sec and increases the radius of its effect by 70 yards.

Others:Blood, 2P -- When an attack drops your health below 35%, one of your Blood Runes will immediately activate and convert into a Death Rune for the next 20 sec. This effect cannot occur more than once every 45 sec.Blood, 4P -- Your Vampiric Blood ability also affects all party and raid members for 50% of the effect it has on you.

Feral, 2P -- While Berserk is active, Savage Defense absorbs are 100% larger, and your Blood in the Water talent now causes Ferocious Bite to refresh the duration of your Rip on targets with 60% or less health.Feral, 4P -- Frenzied Regeneration also affects all raid and party members, and your Stampede talent now grants two charges after using Feral Charge (Cat).

Protection, 2P -- Your Revenge ability now also grants a physical absorption shield equal to 20% of the damage done by Revenge.Protection, 4P -- Your Shield Wall ability now grants 50% of its effect to all party and raid members.

It seems like the 4pc for the 3 other tanks is for when they're off-tanking. I'm liking that they upped the ranged on DG and made it the 2 minute cooldown that the others will be getting for theirs. I also like that we are able to use our 4pc while main tanking and not have to risk not having our main cooldown up for

The 2pc seems a bit lackluster, but then again its a 2pc survival increase which is nice to see after the threat nerf. All and all, I will probably end up swapping out all of my tier for off pieces once I get 2pc T13

I actually really like our 2 set bonus, it's a 5k absorb every ~10 seconds which equates to about 210k damage mitigated over the course of a 7 minute boss fight granted we're taking damage the whole time of course. It's better than some random threat talent that we wouldn't care about. It seems warriors are going to be absorbing twice the amount that we are with their 2 set bonus, if they're tanking all the time. the offtank in my raids does an average 12k revenge, on a 5 second CD, that would make it around 500k damage absorbed through a 7 minute fight. I assume warriors use revenge on cooldown, but I'm not really sure so disregard that if I'm wrong

As for the 4 piece bonus I find it quite lackluster compared to the others 4 sets, all the other tank gets a new ability basically, and we just get ours buffed to the levels of the others. Except they get twice the duration on theirs.

The warriors get an ability that's far better than Divine Guardian, it has the same amount of damage reduce, but it has twice the duration, but the real sick thing is it doesn't have a range. You usually always have to reposition yourself for Divine guardian, and even on a fight like ragnaros HC, you don't hit everyone with it.

I really hope they change our 4 set to something that isn't mostly useless compared to what the other tanking classes are getting.

These set bonuses along with the fact that warriors and druids scale far better with gear is just going to make a paladin tank weak compared to them.

Last edited by Posid on Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

Posid wrote:The warriors get an ability that's far better than Divine Guardian, it has the same amount of damage reduce, but it has twice the duration, but the real sick thing is it doesn't have a range. You usually always have to reposition yourself for Divine guardian, and even on a fight like ragnaros HC, you don't hit everyone with it.

I really hope they change our 4 set to something that isn't mostly useless compared to what the other tanking classes are getting.

These set bonuses along with the fact that warriors and druids scale far better with gear is just going to make a paladin tank weak compared to them.

dont forget DG is our utitliy spell we arent wasting our tanking oh shit button to lower raid dmg. we can use DG whenever the raid needs it, warriors wont want to use their shield wall to lower raid dmg but to save it for themselves..

Well that's true I guess, but it all depends on the encounter design. Take for example heroic ragnaros, it would be great for that fight for the seed explosion. Same on Beth'lac, you could time it to shield the raid and yourself when the stacks get high. Rhyolith during phase 2. You can time it on majordomo as well. I think you'll be able to time it so it benefits the raid and yourself in most encounters, unless tank burst and raid burts comes at different times.

I usually never use shield wall as an oh shit button anyway, I use ardent defender for that since I mostly have my divine protections / shieldwalls mapped out depending on the encounter.

Protection, 4P -- Reduces the cooldown of Divine Guardian by 60 sec and increases the radius of its effect by 70 yards.

I think the implication of a 100 yard range DG is that some of the 4.3 raid encounters will have larger scales, even than some of the Firelands bosses have. Perhaps the lower power 2pc bonus implies that there won't be a drastic reworking of our Mastery, and that we are being built around all being block capped for T13 - a guy has to have hope, right...

I am definitely a little jealous of the 4pc for the other tanks, as they all seem to be slightly more powerfull than DG. But we do still appear to have more CDs to choose from and DG will be 2 mins, vs prolly 3 mins for the other tanks.

I suppose in the short term this would really primarily be important for top tier guilds looking for server/world firsts and tha Blizz will nerf other tanks later to balance. So we'll have to ask if Trek's guild thinks he (pally tank) is competitive for those fights still or not when we get there.

Hrobertgar wrote:I am definitely a little jealous of the 4pc for the other tanks, as they all seem to be slightly more powerfull than DG. But we do still appear to have more CDs to choose from and DG will be 2 mins, vs prolly 3 mins for the other tanks.

The warrior one IS stronger than than current raidwall for sure.Its 25% vs 10%, and 12sec vs 6sec, and most likely 30yards on their range.The range isnt always a dealbreaker, but depending on the fight it can be a big differance.We can always hope for very spread out encounters with multiple camps, prenerf DG was excelent on Nefarian, Sinestra and Alakir where you needed those 100yards, these days you would need 3 CDs to cover them, a DG could cover all of them, thus beeing better ^^

The main differance is that they have to use their CD for the raid and not for them, and we dont.Not really that we need it, its nice to have but we have plenty of CDs to use, we also get their benefit from it if they use it.They could make DG actually affect us if we have the 4set aswell, would make ours a bit more on par with the warrior one.Druids get a 15% raidstand, with 30% increased healing taken, going to be nice to have, but a plain dps warrior isnt that different with their raidstand.And DKs are 12.5% on both hp and increased healing taken, its actually weak compared to the druid one, and it somehow feels they left the 50% effect reduction out on the notes for druids, not to mention that if they dont get some buffs they are going to be even more useless (if they NEED to use their CDs for themselves, while other tanks can use them for the raid).

Hrobertgar wrote:I suppose in the short term this would really primarily be important for top tier guilds looking for server/world firsts and tha Blizz will nerf other tanks later to balance. So we'll have to ask if Trek's guild thinks he (pally tank) is competitive for those fights still or not when we get there.

These 4sets in no way removes paladins from beeing attractive, in a raidsaving kind of way.If the DKs/druids have their 4set, they are more or less as usefull as a paladin with no t13.But i must point out that there is a differance between +health, and dmg reduction, and many times i prefer dmg reduction rather than having more hp.Sadly DG lasts so short time compared to the others (something they could change aswell imo) and the increased healing does make up for getting more health, compared to dmg reduction that is.

If a paladin has 4set or not going to affect to much, but i DO think people will be gearing their tanks slightly faster compared to the other tiers of content.But if you can get lowest t13 gear from looking for raid, you can easily get them from there the first week (before hardmodes) just to get the bonus, as gear STILL wont matter much in next tier for tanks, its even worth gimping your current gear for some setbonuses.

In the end, its all going to depend on how the fights look in dragonsoul.Once the fights come up on PTR, we can start comparing for real.Im hoping for several fights where theres +2min of hard healing phase so we can use it twice, and also fights with spread out camps. Like on deathwing, say you have to click a thingy on his back to hold on when he does the barrel roll, and they are spread +30yard from eachother and only 10people can click it each, atleast we can cover them all, while the others can only cover a camp each, like nefarian.Im almost thinking that might be the case, they want the raid to have more raidCDs, and that eather means longer bursthealing phases (like beth) or the raid is spread to much for each CD to cover it all.Sinestra would be pretty easy having all these CDs, as you could prolly cover each breath for a long time with proper CD usage.Hoping for tankkiller abilities aswell, so the others cant use their CDs for the raid ^^ will make paladins stronger.

KysenMurrin wrote:Wouldn't theirs be either 20% or 30% depending on if they've glyphed Shield Wall (40%/2mins or 60%/4 mins)? And ours is 20%, not 10%.

I guess i havnt played my warr enough.I thought it was 40%/2min without glyph, 50%/3min with glyph.If its 40%/2mins or 60%/4 mins, then i suspect most warriors would run without the glyph, or maybe they are running without it allready.so theirs will become just as good as ours, with the same CD? well thats booring, not to mention they have a freaking 40% on a 2min CD.,. the 50% we get pretty much always feels like overkill anyway ;(

Flex wrote:also does 50% effectiveness mean just reduced power or reduced power and reduced duration.

The way its stated its implied only effectiveness, not duration.Duration decreased would make sense tho, but its not stated so im pretty sure its going to be the same duration as the main CD.Hopefully they will go in and change that (if that code is even written yet ^^)

Posid wrote:I actually really like our 2 set bonus, it's a 5k absorb every ~10 seconds which equates to about 210k damage mitigated over the course of a 7 minute boss fight

I'm curious as to where you're getting your numbers. Looking at my recent logs, my judgement hits for about 9k, so at 25%, that makes a 2400 shield, giving 175k absorbed over a 10 minute fight, or the equiv of 6-12 (depending on crits) WoGs, which seems pretty trivial to me. There are rare crits (11 out of almost 200 judgements) so that would bump it up a little bit.http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-k ... etails/17/

I don't imagine blizz would end up putting something that modest out, but at the moment, I'm unimpressed with the bonus.

I think the numbers will end up saying 4-piece is better, and we'll probably have a break-away point when you should swap just for pure stats... But that'll likely be a high number since most tanks are block capped... So its a Stamina vs. bosses thing --- If you have enough stamina to live, don't break your 4-piece until you're getting deep into the new tier.

When looking at the set bonus you also have to keep in mind gear differences and play style differences that would come with the 2pc bonus. Testing last night against heroic baleroc my lowest judgement with inquisition+full vengeance was 20236 non crit, so a 5059 shield at the minimum. Taking into account the gear difference between t12H and t13, we're looking at close to 7-8k shields every 8 seconds over a fight. I for one think this is actually an incredibly powerful set bonus and would LOVE a 7-8k shield on demand.

Anyone else thought of the retribution 2 piece bonus? I think it could be potentially useful for fights with a tight enrage timer (pre-pre-nerf-Baleroc-tight). Unfortunately losing a ton of avoidance by doing so, the stats on datamined retribution set aren't exactly in our favor.

Posid wrote:I actually really like our 2 set bonus, it's a 5k absorb every ~10 seconds which equates to about 210k damage mitigated over the course of a 7 minute boss fight

I'm curious as to where you're getting your numbers. Looking at my recent logs, my judgement hits for about 9k, so at 25%, that makes a 2400 shield, giving 175k absorbed over a 10 minute fight, or the equiv of 6-12 (depending on crits) WoGs, which seems pretty trivial to me. There are rare crits (11 out of almost 200 judgements) so that would bump it up a little bit.http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-k ... etails/17/

I don't imagine blizz would end up putting something that modest out, but at the moment, I'm unimpressed with the bonus.

In looking at this more, I think I am cautiously reversing my judgement from being unimpressed to thinking this could be a potentially interesting mechanic depending, of course on how it is implemented.

First off, as I had posted, I still feel that current numbers would make the bonus rather unimpressive. I was only considering "judgement" which is significantly lower than "Judgement of truth", but even with Judgement of Truth, I would still find these numbers to be rather low.

However, given that Blizz has stated they want to remove some of the burst from wings and spread it out due to rets burst, I suspect our judgement damage will go up. Add to that gear scaling, and with skills and glyphs, there is lots of possibility for increasing this effect such as specing into Arbiter of the light http://www.wowhead.com/spell=20360 (increased crit chance by 12% for a double duty shield), use of glyph of judgement http://www.wowhead.com/item=41092.

Furthermore, Blizz has talked about wanting tanks to have "active mitigation". This would qualify as with this, we could use our HP to a)SoR for damage/threat b)WoG for a heal with possible shied or c)inquisition making for a 30% bigger shield. In fact, I would not be surprised if this were made an inherent ability come MoP (or whatever the next expansion will be).

At any rate, like all things, it's kinda hard to Judge it (wakka wakka!! get it... we're talking about judgement?? /sigh) until we see how it gets put in game.

EEK! with the above being true, this buff is getting bigger and bigger.In current gear, judgement of truth seems to be hitting for at least 12k, many people more like 15k.50% judgement boost would raise that to 18-22k. The Seal of Truth buff is functionally a doubling of damage, unless I'm misreading it, making it a 36-44k strike. Add in glyph of judgement for an extra 10%, plus increased crit from Arbiter of the light, we're looking at a minimum 10k+ shield every 8 seconds. Over a 10 minute fight, assuming you judge on cooldown, that's now a low ball estimate of 750,000 damage totally mitigated. That's without using inquisition to increase your judgement by another 30%, which could cover 2 judgements depending on when you use it.I'm eager to see how it gets implemented.

Current Judgement of Truth with full Censure is damage x 150%, new one is damage x200%, overall an increase of 1/3rd. A 15k Judgement would be buffed to 20k, with associated absorb going from 3750 to 5000.