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I feel Zangoose doesn't deserve his condemnation to the NU tier. I use one on my MonoNormal OU team and Toxic Boost Facade Zangoose kills everything, especially when combined with a SmashPass'er.

But most sweepers can sweep with a shell smash boost give it to ursaring and he would demolish any team anyway..
Don't place a pokemon in OU cause "it can sweep with shell smash"
I agree it is strong but I think some priority users 0HKO him and he can't stay more than 4 turns in battle

Originally Posted by Professor Oak

Only two things are infinite, the universe and the amount of zubat in caves, and I'm not sure about the former.

Cacturne losing Bullet Seed and Encore is an unfortunate quirk of the ban, but it's not that bad. Last month, about 60% of Cacturne in NU ran Seed Bomb as opposed to about 30% running Bullet Seed. Encore was used about 30% of the time as opposed to Substitute's 20%, which is a bit more, but the fact still stands that Seed Bomb/Substitute have very similar utilities to Bullet Seed/Encore. This knocks off a couple of his options, but I really don't think this will make Cacturne much less used at all. Just now he'll have to run Sub and Seed Bomb instead.

Cacturne losing Bullet Seed and Encore is an unfortunate quirk of the ban, but it's not that bad. Last month, about 60% of Cacturne in NU ran Seed Bomb as opposed to about 30% running Bullet Seed. Encore was used about 30% of the time as opposed to Substitute's 20%, which is a bit more, but the fact still stands that Seed Bomb/Substitute have very similar utilities to Bullet Seed/Encore. This knocks off a couple of his options, but I really don't think this will make Cacturne much less used at all. Just now he'll have to run Sub and Seed Bomb instead.

bullet seed is actually quite a loss, but only for niche things such as golem or when people are running through your team with some stupid sub dpunch golurk. there are also some water type sub users that would take a nice neutral or super effective hit (swanna and some gorebyss), so that is really irritating as well. seed bomb is passable.

on the other hand, substitute doesn't really make up for encore because it doesn't incapacitate some slower things that would be able to hit cacturne in other ways. amoonguss, for example, threatens with sludge bomb but locking it into giga drain is much more manageable and can help set up more spikes or double switch into something else. also, with some musharna carrying signal beam, it'd be nice to just lock it into calm mind as it's whittled slowly or as you set up spikes on it. i feel like substitute gives cacturne fewer opportunities to set up spikes, but it does help out with its offesive presence since subbing on a switch-in mitigates cacturne's lack of speed (alongside sucker punch too). so they're actually quite different in my opinion.

however, this still makes garbodor better as a spiker in my opinion. garbodor already has many ways to run a spikes set to begin with since it boasts a nice speed and a great resistance to fighting. cacturne was limited to the same set for spikes, but now that one set changed.

and honestly, i would never take usage stats for its word. people run the stupidest garbage on the ladder that the apparent popularity in seed bomb or substitute doesn't really represent the better players. but yeah it was just something to mention; there is no way that this is game-changing.

and honestly, i would never take usage stats for its word. people run the stupidest garbage on the ladder that the apparent popularity in seed bomb or substitute doesn't really represent the better players. but yeah it was just something to mention; there is no way that this is game-changing.

Lol, yeah, I agree. But it does sorta go to show that players are getting along without Bullet Seed and Encore. Like I said, they're unfortunate losses, but it probably won't hurt Cacturne all that much. His best niche is as an offensive Spiker, and he performs that spectacularly even with Seed Bomb and Sub.

i am too lazy to go into detail but i tested destiny bond cacturne and it is pretty fun. regice is an underrated baller, taunt dd fraxure is amazing, and rotom-f should be used more. ice-types in general need to see more use; you don't even need a spinner in most cases.

anyway, braviary is most definitely going to be suspected because of the sub bu set. i can see arguments for why it is and isn't broken but i haven't really picked a side. it is a really good set though and i am surprised at how few people even know about it.