As GM moves toward its goals, October was the Volt’s top month with 1,108 units sold.

All this year the company has resisted calling it a competition with the all-electric Nissan Leaf, but in case you are interested, the Volt’s first month to surpass 1,000 units beat the Leaf’s sales of 849 units.

Nissan has sold 8,066 units since December 2010, thus still has many more of its electric cars on the road than the 5,003 Volts delivered through October – and Chevrolet has just two months to deliver 4,997 more if it’s going to meet its North American goal of 10,000 Volts.

In a phone interview yesterday, GM Spokesman Rob Peterson said the company is not stressing, and still intends to meet its most important targets.

“Our goal is to produce 10,000 and our expectation is that there is enough demand out there for those 10,000 units,” he said.

Peterson initially said a couple times that 10,000 units would be produced.

I asked if he meant delivered by the end of the year?

“Yes,” he said. But added GM will only know in December, and he sounded like if GM falls a little short, it will not lose sleep over it, as GM already sees the Volt as succeeding at this point.

Actually, over 10,000 Volts have already been produced by Detroit-Hamtramck so predicting that was a too-easy statement to make – to be exact, the latest calendar-year-to-date figures indicate 10,896 Volts built, comprised of both 2011 and 2012 model years.

Peterson said Chevrolet dealers have a total of around 1,800 Volts in inventory, and 2,300 dealer demos have been placed, with 300 more demos to go this year.

He noted some Web sites have been known to report more vehicles left unsold, but these were an inflated mix that included demos that GM does not count as for sale.

Peterson also reiterated that the company’s priorities are not overly wrapped up in making the 10,000 number, but in getting the vehicle launched fully to all participating Chevy dealers, and refining its delivery process.

Initially the formula GM used to determine what dealers got how many Volts on allocation was – as you probably know – based on market penetration of advanced-tech vehicles, and respective dealers’ overall sales volume.

Stating that from the beginning GM viewed the Volt as a showroom draw, Peterson said the next step is a “market-driven delivery process,” whereby customers who want Volts in regional markets are not left waiting as they are known to be now.

GM wants to make sure that “every single Chevrolet dealer should have a demo in place before we put a retail units in there. The reason we do that is we know the Volt has a way of attracting customers … ” he said. “So our priority is on treating it as a halo vehicle and once we reach the nationwide [roll-out] and we’ve got a little bit of experience with the vehicle, we’ll have a much better understanding of how to seed the dealerships with the appropriate number of vehicles.”

For instance, Peterson said one dealership in Minneapolis has 21 Volt orders pending, and its allocation was three Volts.

Going forward, GM wants to refine where the car is selling and meet demand.

While naysayers will do what they do best and say the Volt is falling short, until recently and even now, it has had supply issues of one sort or another.

Just the Minneapolis example alone shows 18 would-be deliveries that could not be counted, and Peterson said GM knows of many other dealers with more orders than cars.

Also known are areas where the Volt is not being well received, no doubt including U.S. Rep. Mike Kelly’s Pennsylvania family dealership in which he fired his employee for ordering one GM-mandated Volt. This same representative then declared that this was proof that the Obama administration’s attempts to create jobs through green initiatives were not working – at least in his neck of the (back) woods – and that “there is no market for the car.”

Of course that’s an extreme newsworthy case we thought we’d just drop into this story, but perhaps other Chevy dealers have had difficulty marketing the car, or are all to happy to switch people to the Cruze or other vehicles?

And further along these lines, training is another one of GM’s priorities besides merely delivering dealers their new Volts. Training and getting dealers up to speed in all new regions has been part of the work for the new technology, as Kelly’s extreme example partially illustrates.

At the request of a GM-Volt reader, and for your review, here are month-by-month sales numbers for this year:

January – 321
February – 281
March – 608
April – 493
May – 481
June – 561
July – 125
August – 302
September – 723
October – 1,108

TOTAL: 5,003

Needed for Nov./Dec.: 4,997 more.

Production capacity is not really an issue anymore. Dham was closed for a month in the summer as July’s numbers show.

Other U.S. production numbers of interest are: 2,228 model year 2012 Volts were assembled in October. Of the 2011 initial model year Volts, 4,488 were built. Since reopening the assembly plant, a total of 7,627 model year 2012 Volts were built.

As mentioned, the latest grand total of Volts produced for U.S. market is 10,896, so it’s safe to say around 11,000 cars have been built by now.

GM is staying optimistic also because it says demand for Volts around the country remains strong, and “outrageous” positive feedback has come through a variety of independent sources.

This entry was posted on Wednesday, November 2nd, 2011 at 5:55 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 156

1

+31

xiaowei1 Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (6:36 am)

It does not matter how many they make in a given month, they will all be sold. As production ramps up, a new sales record for each month will be made for some years to come.

2

+5

pjkPA Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (6:49 am)

“As mentioned, the latest grand total of Volts produced for U.S. market is 10,896″
I think this says it all….

3

+20

Koz Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (7:11 am)

Until GM completes nationwide rollout and all Volt dealers have there demo, all sales judgements have little meaning. Even then, I’m thinking as long as GM is working off dealer allotments rather than accepting all orders sales numbers will be supply constrained. We are probably looking at mid next year before any reasonable judgements of market acceptance can be made.

Of course the Mike Kelly’s and Neil Cavuto’s of this country are doing themselves as well as all American’s a disservice by trying hardest to derail the Volt and other electrics. Where is the good they see in their actions? Using the Volt to attack Obama is illogical and simply fact challenged. They need to awoken to the reality that the Volt can be loved even while hating subsidies and government rescues. Those are separate debates and throwing the Volt baby out with that ideological bathwater is good for NO ONE.

Jeff, wish you would have asked what, if anything, increasing Amperage production means for Volt production. My understanding is that Voltecs will be battery production limited in 2012 and paying Paul will require robbing Peter.

4

+1

Kup Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (7:29 am)

Jeff, thanks for including those sales numbers by month. My initial reaction is that even though October sales are more than 50 percent above the sales for September this isn’t really great news. The Volt haters claim that the Volt isn’t selling. Us Volt lovers are saying that GM is selling them as fast as they make them. The 50 percent jump in sales is fairly conclusive that the haters are wrong but the 1800 Volts sitting on dealers’ lots would seem to indicate that us fans are wrong saying that they are selling as fast as they can make them.

Yes, there are still wait lists at some dealers. Yes, it is still taking quite awhile from the time you order one to the time you get it delivered in many locales but 1,800 Volts unsold is not a good sign. It would be interesting to get more perspective on this number. Do they count Volts in transit that are pre-ordered in this unsold category since the papers haven’t been signed? Are there other reasons why this number would appear to be larger than it really is? At one time on this site I saw a link to another site that showed the average time that each model car is sitting on the dealer’s lot. The Volt had essentially the lowest time of any make or model. Is this still true or is the 1800 unsold cars hammering away at that figure?

Like I said, initial reaction is that the glass is half empty but shedding a little more light on the situation may change my gut feeling on this one.

That would be pretty good for model that starts at $39k. Of course considering the Fed tax credit and TCO, the Volt is more comparable to $22k-$28k car, but that’s another matter.u

6

Charlie H Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (7:37 am)

The most interesting thing is not sales, it’s production. GM let it decline a little in October.

7

+1

Koz Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (7:39 am)

Kup:
Jeff, thanks for including those sales numbers by month.My initial reaction is that even though October sales are more than 50 percent above the sales for September this isn’t really great news.The Volt haters claim that the Volt isn’t selling.Us Volt lovers are saying that GM is selling them as fast as they make them.The 50 percent jump in sales is fairly conclusive that the haters are wrong but the 1800 Volts sitting on dealers’ lots would seem to indicate that us fans are wrong saying that they are selling as fast as they can make them.

Yes, there are still wait lists at some dealers.Yes, it is still taking quite awhile from the time you order one to the time you get it delivered in many locales but 1,800 Volts unsold is not a good sign.It would be interesting to get more perspective on this number.Do they count Volts in transit that are pre-ordered in this unsold category since the papers haven’t been signed?Are there other reasons why this number would appear to be larger than it really is?At one time on this site I saw a link to another site that showed the average time that each model car is sitting on the dealer’s lot.The Volt had essentially the lowest time of any make or model.Is this still true or is the 1800 unsold cars hammering away at that figure?

Like I said, initial reaction is that the glass is half empty but shedding a little more light on the situation may change my gut feeling on this one.

1800 doesn’t seem bad. That’s way less than 1 per 2500 dealer lots. It certainly includes those ordered by customers that have arrived at the dealer but not yet delivered to the customer.

8

+1

Koz Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (7:40 am)

Charlie H:
The most interesting thing is not sales, it’s production.GM let it decline a little in October.

The number of sold Volts should be much higher for November and December. Remember, most of the country is just now starting to get them. We ordered ours on July 26 and it is not even going into production until Nov. 28. But I can’t imagine a better Christmas present! I still think once people fully understand how great this car is and the price moderates a bit they will sell like the Prius in its heyday.

From Ziv, a blogger at green.autoblog.com
10/17 – C6992 – around 1366 for each of the first 2 weeks of Oct
10/25 – C8129 – around 995 for the third week of Oct
11/1 – C8996 – around 873 for the fourth week of Oct

I don’t know what other cars are built at Hamtramck, but it is quiet reasonable that there may have been external reasons why Volt production was reduced in the last 2 weeks vs the first two. This is still 4600 Volts for the month, 4 times the reported sales volume. Clearly, with only 300 more demos to go, GM will shift from dealer allotment to filling orders according to demand this month.

13

+22

Jim I Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (8:10 am)

My Volt # C-5277 was produced on 09-26-2011 and delivered to me on 10-04-2011, so I am right in those high month production / sales numbers.

IMHO. the car is selling just fine. GM is taking it slow and easy, and so the sales have to follow suit.

What I find the most interesting is the quote:

“Also known are areas where the Volt is not being well received, no doubt including U.S. Rep. Mike Kelly’s Pennsylvania family dealership in which he fired his employee for ordering one GM-mandated Volt. This same representative then declared that this was proof that the Obama administration’s attempts to create jobs through green initiatives were not working – at least in his neck of the (back) woods – and that “there is no market for the car.” ”

To shoot your own business in the foot and purposely not try to market a product just to say that a political rival is wrong goes against everything a business owner is supposed to stand for. Mike Kelly should be ashamed of himself. If he doesn’t want to sell the Volt, then he was not required to do it. The dealership chose to become a part of the Volt program. And I doubt seriously that an employee did it without the knowledge of management and the owners of the dealership.

And if they really wanted to get rid of that car, all they have to do is call another dealership and trade it out. That is done all the time.

It is just ridiculous!

Sorry for the rant.

14

+10

NZDavid Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (8:12 am)

WOW, over 13,000 vehicles which no longer help support people who don’t like our way of life (Canada excluded).

IMHO that is just fantastic!

Nissan 8K, GM 5k, and Toyota ? (sorry John1701a, couldn”t resist)

15

+5

statik Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (8:34 am)

“Peterson said Chevrolet dealers have a total of around 1,800 Volts in inventory, and 2,300 dealer demos have been placed, with 300 more demos to go this year.”

—-

Little bit of spin here.

Early in the year, low sales were accounted for because of ‘dealer allocation of demos’, which where then put into lockdown for 6 months to the end of the model year. Those cars, while demos, are now for sale.

(Also, as a random bit of useless information, GM actually has over 2,400 units as demos at the moment…as per the conference call yesterday with Don Johnson (VP of U.S. Sales Operations)

16

+6

tom w Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (8:34 am)

Sad day for me.

I want to drive electric so bad, but the Volt is too expensive for me.
Ford focus EV just came out starting at 39K.

I think its a sad day for EV enthusiasts. For these cars to become mainstream they need to start lowering the costs.
I go to the FOCUS website, and side by side
FOCUS starting at 16,000
FOCUS EV starting at 39,200

Anyone just looking at that page has to be disheartened.

I may have to wait another year.

My budget is too tight. Even allowing for saving net $1000 a year in fuel/maintenance I cannot justify any of the current offerings. 20K is the most I can justify for a conventional car, even if I say I’ll save 10K over the life of the car the prices still need to come down several thousand before I can justify purchase.

If prices don’t come down in next year I may have to suffer and get a I-MIEV.

17

+6

Ziv Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (8:35 am)

Thanks for using my numbers, Roy, it makes me feel a bit better about spending so much time poking around Chevy.com trying to find the highest VIN’s every week. It is not very scientific, but it is the only way I can figure out to see how fast GM is building Volts, since they all get their VIN the day they are sent to get painted. They then have a lot of work to be done before they roll off the line. And then they sit, get shipped a ways, sit, get shipped a bit more, and finally arrive at the dealer to be prepped.
But the bottom line is, it does seem that GM has slowed their production rate slightly. I think that they were pushing to get the demo fleet finished, because they were building a lot more than they were selling in August and September, and to some extent, in October. And yet, even though GM has slowed their production a bit, it is important to remember that the numbers I cite are for the number of cars that have been painted, not the number of cars produced or the number of cars that are actually on lots ready to be sold to any of us.
Side note, not a great day for the BEV world, Ford may have overpriced the FFE by marketing it at $39.2k MSRP. That would be too bad, it looks like a fun car to drive, but if Ford follows GM on placing the MSRP up near $40k, there will be a lot less Ford Focus Electrics sold. I think the FFE is worth more than a Leaf if the AER is close, but $4,000 more? Not sure.
But it makes the Volt look better by comparison though.

Roy_H: From Ziv, a blogger at green.autoblog.com
10/17 – C6992 – around 1366 for each of the first 2 weeks of Oct
10/25 – C8129 – around 995 for the third week of Oct
11/1 – C8996 – around 873 for the fourth week of Oct

I don’t know what other cars are built at Hamtramck, but it is quiet reasonable that there may have been external reasons why Volt production was reduced in the last 2 weeks vs the first two. This is still 4600 Volts for the month, 4 times the reported sales volume. Clearly, with only 300 more demos to go, GM will shift from dealer allotment to filling orders according to demand this month.

18

+2

kdawg Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (8:40 am)

pjkPA: “As mentioned, the latest grand total of Volts produced for U.S. market is 10,896″
I think this says it all….

I’d be interested to know how many Volts have shipped and will ship to Canada/Europe.

19

+7

kdawg Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (8:51 am)

Another way to look at it, 200,000 – 10,000 = 190,000 customer’s left to get the $7500 rebate.

20

Shawn Marshall Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (8:52 am)

Prius October 2011 Sales 11,008

21

+5

Bonaire Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (9:03 am)

>> For instance, Peterson said one dealership in Minneapolis has 21 Volt orders pending, and its allocation was three Volts.

Fix this problem, GM – and you will have more units sold. This is one constraint holding back sales. Can you imagine the visibliity that delivering these units would have in the twin-cities area in gaining mind-share? I guess the customers are willing to wait, but it isn’t great to watch these “allocations” play against unit-sales.

I bet those Prius sales were in the $25-35K range. Same range as you get with the federal and state breaks on the Volt. The Prius has “mind-share” out among the herd and many Americans would rather buy something “proven” (in their minds) imported from Japan than “new” from GM. Sadly. The Prius doesn’t offer incentives so you’re on your own in terms of pricing help.

The Volt still suffers from “allocation and production issues” and could sell 2000-3000 per month based on orders into the system. However, there are small markets that currently do not support the higher price. One shop near me has two on the lot plus their demo. They are in a small town where the median income is probably $30K. They’ll need someone to come out from the Mainline of Philadelpha to this small town to pick one up from their stock or trade it out to another dealership. If they have the one unit at the end of the year, I’m going to go out there and offer a low-ball offer just to see if they’ll bite (base unit, no options).

I guess we were all hoping that the VIN numbers indicated progress of filling the orders but it may take another month or two to do it.

22

+3

kdawg Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (9:08 am)

Jim I: To shoot your own business in the foot and purposely not try to market a product just to say that a political rival is wrong goes against everything a business owner is supposed to stand for. Mike Kelly should be ashamed of himself. If he doesn’t want to sell the Volt, then he was not required to do it. The dealership chose to become a part of the Volt program. And I doubt seriously that an employee did it without the knowledge of management and the owners of the dealership.

No kidding. He should become a Toyota dealership.

Jim I: And if they really wanted to get rid of that car, all they have to do is call another dealership and trade it out. That is done all the time.

Read Jeff’s linked article. That’s what happened (supposidly).
From the article:
———-
The second part of the Anwyl’s critique would have to wait, because after getting in one last knock at the Volt, Kelly was out of time. Rep Jackie Speier (D-CA) was next in line, and she jumped on Kelly’s Volt-bashing, telling him

First of all, to Mr Kelly, send that Volt to California! It doesn’t have to stay on your lot, because there is a waiting list in my district, at my Chevrolet dealership, of six months to get a Chevy Volt.

To which Kelly replied,

Give me the name of the dealer, and I’ll send it out there right away. If he’ll pick up the transportation cost, I’d love to do that.

The name was exchanged, and jokes were made about bipartisanship and “working together.” Then the partisan back-and-forth continued. You gotta love Congress.

23

+7

Nelson Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (9:17 am)

The numbers tell me GM does not distinguish between dealers and customers. Seems like GM assumes dealers are customers. What you get when this happens is the potential for a customer (“dealer”) hoarding up allocation and real customers (“drivers”) waiting for the Volt. This could all be resolved by taking orders and deposits directly online and using the dealer network as point of delivery.

To buy a Volt
Pick a color
Pick options
Pick form of payment (buy or lease)
Fill out credit application
Pick nearest dealer for delivery

NPNS!
Volt#671

24

+1

Charlie H Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (9:21 am)

Bonaire: >> For instance, Peterson said one dealership in Minneapolis has 21 Volt orders pending, and its allocation was three Volts.Fix this problem, GM – and you will have more units sold. This is one constraint holding back sales. Can you imagine the visibliity that delivering these units would have in the twin-cities area in gaining mind-share? I guess the customers are willing to wait, but it isn’t great to watch these “allocations” play against unit-sales.

About the time I was banned from the forums, I had also suggested allocations were an issue. I still think so. Both Toyota and Mitsubishi cracked the code… they took deposits and routed cars to people who want them. Even GM may have gotten religion, they’re taking deposits in Europe and (I hope) sending cars, FIFO, to people who want them.

As a bonus, if GM hadn’t gone through the demo and allocations malarkey, that Chevy-dealer/Congresscritter Kelley wouldn’t have been able to bad-mouth the Volt quite the way he did.

But you want to look carefully at the Mpls area… there’s one dealer advertising 3 and another advertising 5. I made a call and the one with 5 really has the cars. The idea of “18 would-be deliveries” is hard to accept. If you live in the Twin Cities, want a Volt and aren’t too picky about color and options, you can have one today.

Still, I’ve kept also track of his VINs on AutoTrader and 4 of these seem to be his second batch of Volts. It appears he did sell 4 from a first batch. Volts have, almost certainly, been sold in this area.

25

+5

kdawg Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (9:21 am)

The Audi A6 has an MSRP of $41,700. It just had a “record” sales month of 1,124 in September. I think the Volt’s 1,100 in sales for October isn’t too shabby. (Yes it has a tax credit for some, but it’s also a significantly new technology, which is scary for some)

26

+1

gwmort Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (9:32 am)

Do the sales figures include the deliveries in Canada? I’ve seen some members of the forum in Canada talking about their new Volts.

27

+1

Bonaire Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (9:34 am)

#26: New technology scary for some yes. And also unknown to many. My buddy who is in the local BMW club and who also just bought a Mini Cooper S thought the Volt was all electric and had range-issues. This is a car-guy who reads the magazines and talks cars with others.

Just like other new technologies: DVD & Blu-Ray, Microwaves, cell phones, Solar PV and other stuff – it takes herd-mentality to really snowball. Maybe the same herd mentality that put soccer-moms in minivans and SUVs to “protect the kids” (and in many cases, from themselves while they chat on cell phones while zooming around town).

#27: No, does not include Canada. Sept Canada sales were 143. October, no idea. Has to be at least the 50% gain to 210 as well.

28

+2

Mark Z Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (9:51 am)

Great article Jeff!

How many sales were in 2010? Those will help the grand totals as well.

Does anyone know if they have started production of the Ampera? If so is it counted as a volt production?

To Charlie H

Charlie H: …
The idea of “18 would-be deliveries” is hard to accept. If you live in the Twin Cities, want a Volt and aren’t too picky about color and options, you can have one today.

Well when I’m paying 40K (30K after rebates) for a car I plan on keeping for 10 years why would I want to compromise on color and options. Few people NEED a Volt, they Want their Volt, and want it to be exactly what they desire. There is no need to compromise with a Volt.

When demand so exceeds supply, the allocation to dealers is a poor model and hopefully something that will change. I can see the initial model to get dealers to want to invest to get tech up to speed, but now maybe GM could have VA’s take orders and place them with dealers.

30

+1

Bonaire Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (10:07 am)

If I were managing the sales of Volt into 2012, on January 1st 2012, I would stop the dealer allocations and allow orders to be first-come, first-served into the system. By then, production units should ramp up and if orders “overwhelm” the system, start up that 2nd shift that was so talked about in the past. Since Ampera numbers are apparently going to be higher than expected due to orders – they’ll need the 2nd shift.

31

+1

MIke Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (10:16 am)

kdawg:
Another way to look at it,200,000 – 10,000 = 190,000 customer’s left to get the $7500 rebate.

WOW. OH WOW. A lot of you are just mindless zombies here that stick with GM (and not the Volt) no matter what.

Instead of questioning GM execs (or the relevant parties) on what GM’s future strategy is to make the Volt a success, you folks are actually thinking that everything is fine.

You do know that this is Chevy, not Audi, right? Worldwide sales of A6 is way greater than 1124. Worldwide sales of Volt is 1108.

Expanding to nationwide won’t help sales number significantly. Do you understand the strategy of initial roll out @ specific states? Production limitation is 1 reason, but that’s NOT the only reason. It’s also to gain momentum, because that’s where most of the sales will be. Why do you think that most – well, all – auto makers pick CA as the State for green car launch, and not, say, Colorado? What sort of support do you folks have about this fairy tale on “2000-5000″ per month, when, in full production, with over 4000 units available, GM can sell 1/4 of it (approx)? The green pie is only this big, with a significant portion of it in the initial roll out States. Do not expect a hugh jump in sales during nationwide launch – it’ll increase all right, but not in the sense of double or triple numbers, plus you’ll have to account for the decrease in the initial states due to sales saturation. You’ll also have to account for the increase number of choices in 2012/2013 like iMeV, Coda, Focus EV, FK, Tesla, etc.

Someone asked the average time on the Volt supply: official # from GM is 72 days supply (good # is a little bit under 70), and Edmunds report 18 days @ dealer lots (up from 48 hours as Perry has reported in Aug). You know what this mean? There is no problem in supply. Dealers can order a vehicle immediately for sales without having to wait for production, and many dealers have Volt sitting in their lots. Dealers can even do dealer trades for faster sales. The problem is really on Sales – not enough to drive days supply down.

However, the most important part here is whether you can read through a corporate speech. Apparently not…Halo vehicles can mean significant decrease in marketing and advertising. In addition, it can mean a more unlikely chance of significant decrease in MSRP – hey, that’s what you earn for being a Halo vehicle: high MSRP. fewer “upgrades” (significant enhancements), etc. In fact, the emphasis from GM now has changed from making the Volt to succeed in selling everyone of them being made to “showroom draw.” That makes the Volt essentially a decoration inside the shown, like a fixture or furniture. Market-driven delivery process means that it is now upon “us” to buy the Volt, not GM to promote it with many different marketing gimmicks (like lucky draw, TV ads, product placement in shows, SEMA, etc.). That’s an alarming tone, because the EV1 was canceled due to lack of market demands. Now that was a market driven delivery process.

Hence, don’t even think that everything is fine and dandy as GM (and the site moderator here) wants you to believe. Start asking questions such as, “what’s GM strategy for increasing sales?” and “what is your roadmap at this point, based on current market feedback?”

You know, Steve Jobs died not because of the pancreatic cancer he had; it was a curable! It was because his decision to mask the issue until it was too late (spread to other areas in his body).

33

+6

statik Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (10:22 am)

gwmort: Do the sales figures include the deliveries in Canada? I’ve seen some members of the forum in Canada talking about their new Volts.

How about the 35 billion government gave to just black lung coal miners over last 30 years.

To complain about a few billion in tax credits that actually create more economic activity then they cost (just keeping the fungible oil money in our economy more than pays for the credit).

Government WASTES trillions, but this is a credit that can easily be demonstrated to have a great payback.

My problem with the credit is that it is structured to SLOW DOWN instead of SPEED up EV adoption.

To maximize the profit for each of the 200,000 cars, the Volt for example is configured as a 40K car with lots of un-needed bells and whistles. It it was a 35K car with the same range and economy I could justify it TODAY with the $7500 credit. Instead the 40K -7500(TAX CREDIT) -10,000 (fuel savings over 10 years) prices it just out of my range.

As has often been pointed out the EV credit needs to either be first come first serve so companies have incentive to produce as much as they can (not 200k per OEM) or just based on calendar.

So I have to wait for a car that my wife will let me buy based on financial justification.

Supply is greater than demand, not the other way around. Using BV’s idea:

BV wants to eat a green M&M. Not only it has to be green, it must be picked from a special edition M&M package. That makes this green M&M super rare.

However, that doesn’t mean a shortage in M&M. In fact, there is excess M&M lying around everywhere. You can buy M&M from any grocery stores. Supply is way greater than demand. It’s just that this 1 specific green M&M isn’t available.

See how price isn’t part of the condition, because price is NOT the condition in supply & demand when supply is abundant. If demand outweighs supply, price will increase – just look at gold.

You can then stop asking whether the #s are including overseas sales. THEY ARE FOR THE US ONLY. There are way more supply after fulfilling all dealer demos and sales, if you look at the production # (the pdf file).

36

+3

Charlie H Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (11:00 am)

Jeff Cobb,

Where did you get your number for Volts produced to date? I get 12,115. The oldest GM Production Report I have is from Feb. At that time, MY 2011 cumulative production was listed as 2423. Using the CYTD figure on that same report, I find that 1219 were built in 2010. Our figures differ by that much, so I think your figures are missing the production from 2010.

tom w: How about the 35 billion government gave to just black lung coal miners over last 30 years.

I understand your intent but since the typical Volt is about 50% coal-fired, this is not your best economic argument.

38

DonC Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (11:08 am)

We have 11K produced, 5K sold, and 2.5K as dealer demos. That would leave 3.5K in the pipeline between QC and customers. That seems like too high a figure. Is that what GM is saying? What about production of Amperas? Do they show up as Volts or will there be a separate line in the production figures?

Jeff? statik?

EDIT: statik, saw your response in the forum. So you’re saying that there are 4,200 in ‘inventory’ between the US and Canada, of which 1,300 or so have been sold, 2,900 are yet to be sold, with maybe 600 still in dealer demo lockup. How are you estimating this? Of the 1,300 you estimate to be sold, would any of these be in the October sales numbers? TIA

39

+5

tom w Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (11:13 am)

Charlie H: I understand your intent but since the typical Volt is about 50% coal-fired, this is not your best economic argument.

Charlie;
I was just trying to scale the money spent on EV credits.
But actually EVs do help clean air and breathing issues.
But replacing coal in electric generation is a whole different issue.
Don’t want to rehash the arguments but its more than easy to justify a PAYBACK for EV credits.

But only if EV’s can soon be sold at a premium of less than $7500 for a comparable ICE car. Then people can jusitfy buying EV/EREVs because of their fuel savings and of course the fact that fuel will be AMERICAN GENERATED electricity instead of fungible imported oil.

And I believe EV/EREV’s would be sold right now at a $7500 premium to their comparable ICE competition if the FED Tax Credit were structured differently. But as it is they aren’t in any hurry to drive down costs and use up their 200,000 per.

I look at the Volt and think it could have the same range, warranty, drive-train etc. and be sold for 35K before tax credits if it had less bells and whistles. Then I could buy one now.

But GM is smarter to sell fewer cars at 40k than many cars at 35K because of the way the tax credit is structured. They can shake out their car and in a few years when the tax credit is gone they will be selling the car for 30K. But I’d rather buy one now for 35k-7.5k

40

+7

Nelson Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (11:20 am)

tom w: Sad day for me.
I want to drive electric so bad, but the Volt is too expensive for me.
Ford focus EV just came out starting at 39K.
I think its a sad day for EV enthusiasts. For these cars to become mainstream they need to start lowering the costs.
I go to the FOCUS website, and side by side
FOCUS starting at 16,000
FOCUS EV starting at 39,200
Anyone just looking at that page has to be disheartened.

I hope GM doesn’t make the same mistake with the Spark EV.

NPNS!
Volt#671

41

+5

DonC Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (11:25 am)

Charlie H: I understand your intent but since the typical Volt is about 50% coal-fired, this is not your best economic argument.

John this seems like less than factual BS. Nationally the source of electricity is less than 50% but, more importantly, Volts are not being delivered where coal is a major component of the grid. The “typical Volt” is probably charged off a grid where less than 10% of the power comes from coal. http://www.epa.gov/cleanenergy/energy-and-you/how-clean.html

Coal is the source of 7.6% of the electricity where I live, which is representative of California.

42

+1

DonC Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (11:31 am)

Charlie H: Our figures differ by that much, so I think your figures are missing the production from 2010.

Whoopdi-doo. 1 days worth of oil, for years of oil reduction. And a lot of that money is going to terrorist countries.. not China.

44

+4

evil conservative Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (11:37 am)

tom w: Sad day for me. I want to drive electric so bad, but the Volt is too expensive for me.Ford focus EV just came out starting at 39K.I think its a sad day for EV enthusiasts. For these cars to become mainstream they need to start lowering the costs.I go to the FOCUS website, and side by sideFOCUS starting at 16,000FOCUS EV starting at 39,200Anyone just looking at that page has to be disheartened.I may have to wait another year.My budget is too tight. Even allowing for saving net $1000 a year in fuel/maintenance I cannot justify any of the current offerings. 20K is the most I can justify for a conventional car, even if I say I’ll save 10K over the life of the car the prices still need to come down several thousand before I can justify purchase.If prices don’t come down in next year I may have to suffer and get a I-MIEV.

From your lips to GM’s ears. I also really want a Volt but the economic logic just is not there yet. For me factoring in the mileage I drive it would take 10 years to break even comparing to a 35MPG car. The math simply does not work for me. If GM can get the Volt in the $22-25K range then we can talk. (I know, I know, it is not always about saving money but about saving oil. I get that but cost is the bottom line for most people.)

I have heard rumors that the Cruze diesel that is coming out next year is going to hit 50 MPG. I may be in line for one of those instead.

45

+3

jeffhre Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (11:40 am)

BoultVolt: Well when I’m paying 40K (30K after rebates) for a car I plan on keeping for 10 years why would I want to compromise on color and options. Few people NEED a Volt, they Want their Volt, and want it to be exactly what they desire. There is no need to compromise with a Volt.

CharlieH didn’t mention price. Are all of the cars priced at or below MSRP? And though it all sounds good and factual on the phone, but surprisingly a lot of people you speak with haven’t done their homework. You sometimes find that when you get to the dealers lot, inventory, features and prices may not be exactly the same as what was mentioned on the telephone.

Over the years I have been told a lot of things by people representing their employer/dealers that turned out to be not quite right.

46

+11

kdawg Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (11:41 am)

Mindless Zombie: BV wants to eat a green M&M. Not only it has to be green, it must be picked from a special edition M&M package. That makes this green M&M super rare.

My Buick Regal and my Chevy Equinox were both built in Canada, so I recognize the quality of Canadian production. But if I wanted to buy a Chevy Orlando, I can buy it in Canada and just drive it across the border (between Winsor and Detroit – I have been there). Now I need to find how to ship it down here to Puerto Rico…

Raymond

48

+10

Nelson Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (11:50 am)

From 1996 to 1999 GM built 1,117 EV1.
From November, 2010 to October 2011 GM built 10,896 Volt.
Obvious technology improvement. The customer knows what the customer wants.

This info would be a great start to a GM Voltec commitment image commercial.

NPNS!
Volt#671

49

+4

Noel Park Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (11:59 am)

NZDavid:
WOW, over 13,000 vehicles which no longer help support people who don’t like our way of life (Canada excluded).

IMHO that is just fantastic!

Nissan 8K, GM 5k, and Toyota ? (sorry John1701a, couldn”t resist)

#14

Hey guy! it’s great to see you here. Don’t be a stranger. +1

50

+2

Loboc Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (12:00 pm)

If GM ‘misses’ their goal of 10k cars in 2011, it won’t matter much in the grand scheme of things.

With their new flexible production lines, they aren’t pushing product like they did in the past. They are throttling production up or down based on orders.

The problem is that they don’t have a national track record on how many Volts are in demand. It’s very difficult to project into the future with only one month’s worth of data. There is a huge logistical problem getting all the parts to arrive at the correct time to produce cars.

I also think they are squeezing the dealers to sell a mix of cars with allocation of Volts going to those that sell a bunch of all shapes and sizes. Like you get one Volt for every 12 Camaros and every 500 Impalas. Don’t sell a bunch of cars = don’t get any Volts. In other words, they are using Volt allocations as a big stick to move product.

51

+2

Noel Park Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (12:02 pm)

Koz: Using the Volt to attack Obama is illogical and simply fact challenged.

#8

Since when have they ever worried about that? Throw all the s__t you can think of at the wall and see what sticks is their operating principle IMHO.

You can bet they will. It will be priced very close to the price of the Leaf. A little under, but close. No inside information. Just gut feeling.

55

+5

Loboc Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (12:08 pm)

jeffhre: didn’t mention price. Are all of the cars priced at or below MSRP?

If you do a search on carsdotcom or autotraderdotcom, you’ll find that a lot of them are way over MSRP. I have a search running for Volts priced < $42k and only get one hit ($39,999) for a USED car with no tax credit!

The green M&Ms are being priced way higher than blue ones. This is what happens when there are no green Skittles to compete.

56

+23

ziv Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (12:08 pm)

All I have to say is, the Volt must be doing great, because the Trolls are out like I haven’t seen in months! I don’t consider John1701 to be a troll, he is a Prius fan, so I kind of like his comments. I don’t agree with him but I know that he knows his Prius info.
But today both GM-Volt.com and autobloggreen is getting slammed with hate mail. It feels kind of good, we have gone from, “The Volt is vaporware!” to “Don’t buy the Volt because GM is evil!”

57

+5

Noel Park Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (12:10 pm)

kdawg: The Audi A6 has an MSRP of $41,700. It just had a “record” sales month of 1,124 in September.

#25

Yeah, that kind of puts it in perspective, doesn’t it? +1

58

+5

Kup Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (12:11 pm)

DonC: John this seems like less than factual BS. Nationally the source of electricity is less than 50% but, more importantly, Volts are not being delivered where coal is a major component of the grid. The “typical Volt” is probably charged off a grid where less than 10% of the power comes from coal. http://www.epa.gov/cleanenergy/energy-and-you/how-clean.htmlCoal is the source of 7.6% of the electricity where I live, which is representative of California.

DonC, I respect what you bring to this forum but I’ll disagree and say we should stick with the national average. I’m in the Northern VA area, have had my Volt for 7 months and based on the link you provided my mix of coal is actually above the national average (51.1 to 48.5). It’s difficult, time consuming, tedious, and plays into the haters hands to cherry pick data based on each Volt owner’s location. On top of that, since electricity generation can only be reduced so much at night due to the size of various power plants, EVs will be consuming “waste” electricity for awhile and essentially no additional pollution will occur (as long as they plug in at night). How long this goes on for each locale is uncertain but it appears to be the case in the early years of EV adoption.

59

+4

Noel Park Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (12:12 pm)

Mindless Zombies: A lot of you are just mindless zombies here that stick with GM (and not the Volt) no matter what.

#32

That would be me, LOL! -1

60

Raymondjram Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (12:13 pm)

Noel Park: #8Since when have they ever worried about that? Throw all the s__t you can think of at the wall and see what sticks is their operating principle IMHO.

You got that right! it already has, and will continue to do so far into the future IMHO. It’s all about ratings. Truth has nothing to do with it. +1

62

+8

Noel Park Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (12:26 pm)

9:23 AM PDT and 60+ comments already. And from all over the world at that. Not too shabby IMHO. Hey, even the trolls get the comment count up, which is the name of the game, right?

Great news today if you ask me. Wait ’til the next oil price spike. Hamtramck will be running flat out 3 shifts.

63

-2

Charlie H Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (12:39 pm)

Kup: DonC, I respect what you bring to this forum but I’ll disagree and say we should stick with the national average. I’m in the Northern VA area, have had my Volt for 7 months and based on the link you provided my mix of coal is actually above the national average (51.1 to 48.5). It’s difficult, time consuming, tedious, and plays into the haters hands to cherry pick data based on each Volt owner’s location. On top of that, since electricity generation can only be reduced so much at night due to the size of various power plants, EVs will be consuming “waste” electricity for awhile and essentially no additional pollution will occur (as long as they plug in at night). How long this goes on for each locale is uncertain but it appears to be the case in the early years of EV adoption.

DonC did point out something interesting, though. And the “fuel” mix of the Volt is probably disproportionately green because I would bet that EV owners tend to also buy SPV to “fuel” their EVs. At one time, there was a photo galler of Rav4-EV owners and about half of the photos showed the EV owners also had SPV.

But I hope DonC also recognized my larger point that the Volt, all by itself, isn’t going to put coal miners on the unemployment lines. Our energy policy can’t start and end with “electrify our cars,” as that will just lead to more digging.

64

+5

Bonaire Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (12:49 pm)

I’ll feed the SPV for a moment. I’m pricing a Solar PV array now and will be able to use SPV charging in Trenton NJ when I get the Volt and setup for at home and “at work” charging at the parking garage there.

It’s important to note to the pundits that EV buyers today may have an added interest in supplementing the EV’s power draw with even more Solar-PV fed back to the grid to assist peak loads. This is a costly proposition but when someone says “EV driver will be bad for the grid” – they are not taking into account EV owners who actually may be putting more power back into the grid than they take out.

You’re forgetting an important factor: to balance supply and demand when supply is constrained, what has to increase is technically COST, not price. (Cost includes both the price and any other detracting or inconveniencing factors in the purchase.) In this case, the COST of a Volt has gone up thanks to the waiting list – people are buying the Volt even though it “costs” them not just the price of the car, but several weeks or months of waiting time. This is why it’s obvious that the Volt is supply-constrained at the price that GM is selling it at – things like a waiting list are increasing the cost of getting the Volt, and it’s still sold out anyway.

NZDavid: WOW, over 13,000 vehicles which no longer help support people who don’t like our way of life (Canada excluded).
IMHO that is just fantastic!
Nissan 8K, GM 5k, and Toyota ? (sorry John1701a, couldn”t resist)

Resist what? My purpose has always been to support the replacement of traditional production. That means high-volume profitable sales. Niche quantity is not business sustaining, nor does it represent actual change. We expected twice what was actually sold in October. November needs that increase. Then in January, it needs to double again and remain at that level.

67

+4

LauraM Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (1:23 pm)

Charlie H: Even GM may have gotten religion, they’re taking deposits in Europe and (I hope) sending cars, FIFO, to people who want them.

Is that a positive comment about GM?

68

+3

statik Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (1:27 pm)

DonC: We have 11K produced, 5K sold, and 2.5K as dealer demos. That would leave 3.5K in the pipeline between QC and customers. That seems like too high a figure. Is that what GM is saying? What about production of Amperas? Do they show up as Volts or will there be a separate line in the production figures?Jeff? statik?EDIT: statik, saw your response in the forum. So you’re saying that there are 4,200 in ‘inventory’ between the US and Canada, of which 1,300 or so have been sold, 2,900 are yet to be sold, with maybe 600 still in dealer demo lockup. How are you estimating this? Of the 1,300 you estimate to be sold, would any of these be in the October sales numbers? TIA

The 1,300 estimate would be going forward (November) sales. There is no ‘hard’ way of measuring the inventory/sold/demo numbers because of the way GM reports, but you can get to the number by going backwards from the inventory turnover per dealer numbers to give you a pretty solid idea.

Also, sales and production can’t be married up off of the media sites PDFs. The sales are for the US, but plant production is GMNA-wide. For example, you have 500-odd Volts to Canada so far.

As for the Ampera, if it was listed on the production PDF, it would have its own line list.

I think the question you really want to know is “will the Ampera/Euro Volts be listed in the PDF?”. I am pretty sure it will not be…it would be included with GME’s accounting. (not 100% sure of this, so I could be wrong…but I think it only lists cars headed to GMNA itself)

Irregardless RHD Opel/Vauxhell Amperas are not being produced out as saleable units yet. The PPD run I believe starts shortly. I know they expect them (pre-production vehicles…which will go on there own little Euro tour) to land in February in Europe. Your looking at the start of production of saleable RHD units likely in February in DHAM, with an expected land date in April to customers in Europe.

Just as a WAG, I suspect the bulk of the 2,000 Volts GM has scheduled for Europe will be front calendar loaded/LHD versions for the end of this year/Q1 of ’12. Then they will bang out a disproportional number of saleable Opels/Vauxhells in a 3:2 ratio late in Q2/Q3.

The Ampera will be a 2013 MY in Europe, so your likely to see production back-ended in DHAM (April-July) over the NA Volt then, because the continuation of production into another calendar year gives them an ‘easier to move’/more saleable product over 2012 NA Volts late in the model year.

Charlie H: But I hope DonC also recognized my larger point that the Volt, all by itself, isn’t going to put coal miners on the unemployment lines. Our energy policy can’t start and end with “electrify our cars,” as that will just lead to more digging.

I think everyone here knows that. Which is why there are frequent discussions about solar panels, wind mills, the relative merits of natural gas, biofuels, etc.

But it doesn’t have to be the whole solution to be part of the solution. The advantage of electric cars is that they will run on electricity regardless of the source of that electricity. So, as, we, hopefully, ramp up clean sources of power, our cars will get cleaner as well. They’re also inherently more fuel efficient–less energy loss. Which is a positive anyway you look at it.

71

Nelson Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (1:37 pm)

OT,
I took another online car survey yesterday and these survey companies still don’t understand the Volt.
This company had the following types of alternative fuel vehicles.
BEV
Hybrid
Plug-in-Hybrid
Fuel Cell
Flex Fuel
Diesel
Compressed Natural Gas
They consider the Volt a plug-in-hybrid when in reality it’s more like a BEV-Hybrid or as we all know an Extended Range Electric Vehicle EREV….

NPNS!
Volt#671

72

+6

Jackson Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (1:40 pm)

john1701a: My purpose has always been to support the replacement of traditional production.

Your purpose has always been to defend / shill for the Toyota Prius; and the only impetus you’ve ever needed is for the Volt to actually, meaningfully, exist. It clearly now exists, so all you have left is the meaning of “meaningfully.” And, as you post your criticisms, you refuse to compare the earliest history of the Prius with these earliest of times for the Volt. You are accomplishing nothing useful here.

Positive reports of increasing Volt sales never fails to draw you here like a moth to a flame; and you should keep in mind that this is likely to result in more damage to the moth than to the flame. The causes of the slow increase in Volt sales are known to the readers of the site; and you can not help but be repudiated by expected production and sales, regardless of the longer view. Read today’s article, don’t just respond to the comments.

kdawg: LOL.. ok, so compare to 12,000,000 barrels/day x $100/barrel =$1,200,000,000.
Whoopdi-doo. 1 days worth of oil, for years of oil reduction. And a lot of that money is going to terrorist countries.. not China.

Agree, that is why we need to drill our own oil. We have plenty here, much of it locked away due to the pressure from enviro groups like Greenpeace, and Sierra Club. Open up offshore drilling.

We have the worlds largest supply of shale in western Colorado (3 to 5 times the Saudi reserves). We have the mind numbing Bakken field, we have Eagle Ford, Exxon’s new Hadrian field, Alaska’s coastal slope and on and on.

The way to oil independence is not the Volt, it is to be self sufficient in oil. There is nothing stopping us as the continental US has plenty. We should be exporting if anything, not importing.

74

+3

DonC Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (1:46 pm)

Kup: It’s difficult, time consuming, tedious, and plays into the haters hands to cherry pick data based on each Volt owner’s location. On top of that, since electricity generation can only be reduced so much at night due to the size of various power plants, EVs will be consuming “waste” electricity for awhile and essentially no additional pollution will occur (as long as they plug in at night). How long this goes on for each locale is uncertain but it appears to be the case in the early years of EV adoption.

I think it’s kinda cool to have individuals look at the sources for their electricity. I could have used CA I guess. My point though was that because Volts are clustered where the grid is much cleaner than average, his claim that “the typical Volt is powered by electricity of which 50% comes from coal” is wrong on its face. Under various screen names he has used this statistically invalid approach to argue time and time again that the Prius is the “cleaner” vehicle, which it is not.

As for Volts using electricity that would otherwise be wasted, you have base loads and peaker
loads. Nuclear and coal are the best sources of base load. Hydro is the best source of peaker power, followed by natural gas and then other renewables. It’s probably a better point to note that at least half the cost of electricity is in transmission and distribution, and by adding demand at non-peak periods electric vehicles flatten the demand curve while lower the cost per kWh for all users. Since cost represents the cost to society of producing the service, lowering the cost per kWh of electricity does add to the social surplus.

tom w: How about the 35 billion government gave to just black lung coal miners over last 30 years.
To complain about a few billion in tax credits that actually create more economic activity then they cost (just keeping the fungible oil money in our economy more than pays for the credit).

The US is bankrupt, broke, we don’t have any money at all. Even the few billion you dismiss as irrelevant we must borrow from China. This practice must stop NOW.

A bankrupt person has no credit cards. He can’t ring up anything on credit. Nothing. Not even a coffee from Starbucks. The US is in the same situation. We need to stop all borrowing . Whether it is for a greater good or not is irrelevant. We have no money, nothing, nada, zilch, zero.

All government handouts must end. We can easily cut spending 10% tomorrow. We need to cut spending at least 30%. We can do that easily too, within a period of 1 presidential administration. Start with subsidies for electric cars. We can not afford this.

76

+6

Jackson Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (1:58 pm)

The larger value of vehicle electrification is that electricity can come from many, many sources; petroleum from just a few. The point is that our sources of electricity can be completely domestic, increasing our real and economic security as a culture and a nation.

The “green-ness” or “clean-ness” of US electricity is a separate issue; if it’s too dirty for electric cars, it’s too dirty for electric toothbrushes (yeah, I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating in any “clean energy vs electric cars” discussion).

I can’t favor one source of electricity over another at this point: The plain fact is that we must do everything to provide our energy needs in an economically as well as environmentally sound manner. That means drilling for oil, increasing renewables, digging for coal, building nukes. Once we have a handle on the energy security issue, we can begin to favor the more clean alternatives as they become more capable. You don’t have the resources to do the latter without the success of the former.

Without vehicle electrification, the only source of energy for transportation is fossil fuel, with it’s attendant ecological and political baggage. JMO.

77

+3

DonC Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (1:58 pm)

MIke: Agree, that is why we need to drill our own oil. We have plenty here, much of it locked away due to the pressure from enviro groups like Greenpeace, and Sierra Club. Open up offshore drilling.

The problem is that oil use creates many problems. First there is the economic problem. Oil is a commodity and, like all commodities which are disconnected from actual demand by financialization (aka speculation), the price for the commodity swings wildly. If your economy is tied to a commodity, and currently our economy is tied to oil, then the country is something of a banana republic, where swings in commodity result in boom and bust cycles which, overall, lead to substantially lower economic growth.

Secondly there is the health problem. Oil creates a tremendous amount of particulate pollution (brake dust as well but that’s a separate problem). Not only does this up health costs, it also knocks up to as many at 10 IQ points off poor children who live near freeways.

Third we have the CO2 issues and AGW. I won’t go too far into this but I will mention that the leading skeptic, funded by the Koch brothers, concluded in an announcement last weekend that in fact AGW is real.

Fourth is the fact that while we may domestically produce more oil, either from offshore or, more likely, from tight sources, most of our oil under all scenarios will continue to come from foreign countries. Electricity only comes from domestic sources. Hence using oil contributes to the trade imbalance and results in fewer domestic jobs.

In essence, using domestic oil is only marginally better than using foreign oil. Time to find a better option.

78

+12

LauraM Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (2:07 pm)

MIke: The US is bankrupt, broke, we don’t have any money at all. Even the few billion you dismiss as irrelevant we must borrow from China. This practice must stop NOW.

A bankrupt person has no credit cards. He can’t ring up anything on credit. Nothing. Not even a coffee from Starbucks. The US is in the same situation. We need to stop all borrowing . Whether it is for a greater good or not is irrelevant. We have no money, nothing, nada, zilch, zero.

The US is NOT bankrupt. Have you looked at the price of treasuries lately? Even if China stopped buying US debt tomorrow, it is extremely unlikely the government would have a problem selling treasury debt. There are too many buyers. We might have to pay a higher interest rate (unless the Fed intervened). But we are in no danger of being locked out of the bond market anytime soon.

That’s not to say that we shouldn’t cut spending, and raise taxes. We do have long term fiscal issues. But let’s not exaggerate the situation.

This is an idiotic. We have plenty of money. The government has a current deficit because of irresponsible tax cuts and two unfunded wars. Get rid of the Bush tax cuts, put in a tax surcharge to cover Iraq and Afghanistan, and, viola, the government is rolling in dough. Remember that the government was awash in surplus revenue when Bush took the oath of office. We had the deficits when he left. (This suggests an easy fix for deficits — don’t elect Republicans to federal office until they clean up their act).

The point here is that you’re only broke when you don’t have money AND you have no way to raise money. I can put the government in the black for the next 100 years in about five minutes. (In fact there is a proposal on the table for the Deficit Reduction Committee that does exactly that).

I say this with respect for every single one of you. I am privileged to be able to write for you. If you don’t know it, sometimes I will work (with breaks and other responsibilities thrown in) from morning till night to research and polish stories for you.

My dilemma:

*As per Lyle, I basically write one story per day. And this is all that’s usually practical.
*News comes out all the time on other sites you may also be scanning.
*I research and write a day in advance (on these often long days) and try to pick the most newsworthy story I can find for you.

*As for the”news coming out all the time” issue, it becomes a conflict of this site’s interest when people post off-topic news and links redirecting people away from here to stories I am working on for the next day.

1) It undermines my work for you.
2) It invites OT comments on a story I’ll write on for the next day. By breaking the news here a day ahead of time it is not really “news” by the time I post a story.
3) It therefore removes the surprise for the readers.

People have said I can still devise a fresh angle. Fact is, a lot of times the news is what it is (brief and basic, not tons of details), and I cannot add a fresh angle to it of any substance.

So after being “scooped” on my own Web site, I wind up posting old news, and have even been criticized for having “nothing new” in times past when I did this.

Do you see the irony and dilemma I am up against?

Lyle was known to remove posts that redirected to competing sites, and was known to bar posts that otherwise bothered his sensibility.

In the same vein, I am inclined to see it the same way. From where I sit, it is the most fair policy.

I do believe in the “free marketplace of ideas” as much as the next person, but we are not running a rolling scroll of news here and cannot keep up with peoples’ OT posts of breaking news.

I am trying to do a good job by all of you and serve this readership as best I can, but my hands are tied.

Again, I am saying this with best intentions to do a good job for you all.

It is thus my request going forward that you please refrain from letting the cat out of the bag even if others may already know it, etc.

Would any newspaper publish a letter to the editor detailing the meat of a story its reporters were about to publish? I don’t think so. So what I am asking is not unprecedented.

Off topic news is OK, but if it’s in the running for being the hottest story of the day, or could otherwise be a GM-Volt story, please don’t share it here.

This does not mean no OT posts are allowed. Besides breaking stories, there are a ton of OT things to discuss.

Cool! google search on Cruze Diesel. The local Chevy dealer had a Volt demo so I got to testdrive one — very cool and driving EV is a real kick but… He tried to sell me a Cruze Eco for around 20k, saying I could trade it on a nice Volt going off of lease for most of the price. I was shocked to get a test drive.

He would not give me a special Volt plush for being the first person to buy a Volt at the dealsership. A deal breaker for me.

ps what is the silly ‘start’ button for, and what actually happens when you press it when trying to go to sport mode? The salesman seemed to be more surprised than worried when I did that. Found EV driving to be different — not as different as manual to automatic, but will take some getting used to. I am used to some feedback when sitting at a stop sign… quiet = no go when you push gas pedal. Oops, the go petal?

yea, like that — the phrase “Give it some gas” just doesn’t compute.

I mentioned this site to the salesguy, he said I was the most informed customer he has seen. Thanks Guys I gave you the nod for the training.

Hmm, a coal fired Volt. Strange image — made me laugh. Black lung caused by mining coal … wow I thought
it was because people breathed in coal dust without protection.

LauraM: The US is NOT bankrupt. Have you looked at the price of treasuries lately?

Our friend has drunk the kool-aid (in deference to my friend Jackson who I adore I won’t mention whose kool-aid). Most people who rant like this probably don’t know the difference between a Treasury Note and a Treasury Bill, so no, he likely hasn’t looked at treasuries lately.

tom w: To complain about a few billion in tax credits that actually create more economic activity then they cost (just keeping the fungible oil money in our economy more than pays for the credit).

Then we should just GIVE everyone in the US a Volt, subsidized with borrowed money from China. By your argument it will create more economic activity than they cost. Keep the money spent down at the filling station on Venezuelan in our economy. If 200,000 subsidized Volts creates a positive economic activity, why stop with 200K? Why not 1,000,000? And why $7500? Why not $39,000 in subsidies?

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LauraM Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (2:20 pm)

DonC: This suggests an easy fix for deficits — don’t elect Republicans to federal office until they clean up their act.

I like Warren Buffet’s suggestion–make a law that renders all current members of congress ineligible for reelection if the deficit exceeds three percent of GDP.

Place a permanent link prominently on the masthead of the site; “submit breaking news.” Following submission, a popup would thank the person using it: “Thank you for helping gm-volt. Your story idea will be evaluated for future publication. Please do not refer to this story in today’s discussion thread.”

You’ve provided your email address here before, but I must confess that I can’t always remember it (or anything else, due to increasing age, LOL).

We appreciate your work, and I think that most of us would be willing to help you … with a subtle reminder.

I say this with respect for every single one of you. I am privileged to be able to write for you. If you don’t know it, sometimes I will work (with breaks and other responsibilities thrown in) from morning till night to research and polish stories for you.

My dilemma:

*As per Lyle, I basically write one story per day. And this is all that’s usually practical.
*News comes out all the time on other sites you may also be scanning.
*I research and write a day in advance (on these often long days) and try to pick the most newsworthy story I can find for you.

*As for the”news coming out all the time” issue, it becomes a conflict of this site’s interest when people post off-topic news and links redirecting people away from here to stories I am working on for the next day.

1) It undermines my work for you.
2) It invites OT comments on a story I’ll write on for the next day. By breaking the news here a day ahead of time it is not really “news” by the time I post a story.
3) It therefore removes the surprise for the readers.

People have said I can still devise a fresh angle. Fact is, a lot of times the news is what it is (brief and basic, not tons of details), and I cannot add a fresh angle to it of any substance.

So after being “scooped” on my own Web site, I wind up posting old news, and have even been criticized for having “nothing new” in times past when I did this.

Do you see the irony and dilemma I am up against?

Lyle was known to remove posts that redirected to competing sites, and was known to bar posts that otherwise bothered his sensibility.

In the same vein, I am inclined to see it the same way. From where I sit, it is the most fair policy.

I do believe in the “free marketplace of ideas” as much as the next person, but we are not running a rolling scroll of news here and cannot keep up with peoples’ OT posts of breaking news.

I am trying to do a good job by all of you and serve this readership as best I can, but my hands are tied.

Again, I am saying this with best intentions to do a good job for you all.

It is thus my request going forward that you please refrain from letting the cat out of the bag even if others may already know it, etc.

Would any newspaper publish a letter to the editor detailing the meat of a story its reporters were about to publish? I don’t think so. So what I am asking is not unprecedented.

Off topic news is OK, but if it’s in the running for being the hottest story of the day, or could otherwise be a GM-Volt story, please don’t share it here.

This does not mean no OT posts are allowed. Besides breaking stories, there are a ton of OT things to discuss.

LauraM: The US is NOT bankrupt.Have you looked at the price of treasuries lately?Even if China stopped buying US debt tomorrow, it is extremely unlikely the government would have a problem selling treasury debt.There are too many buyers.We might have to pay a higher interest rate (unless the Fed intervened).But we are in no danger of being locked out of the bond market anytime soon.

That’s not to say that we shouldn’t cut spending, and raise taxes.We do have long term fiscal issues.But let’s not exaggerate the situation.

Why are we funding government operations with the financial instruments you reference? Why do we not fund out of revenues? Why does the market even exist for US Treasuries? It exists because we spend far beyond our means and must borrow. And in case you missed it, Standard and Poor downrated the US bond rating in August. That means we are perceived as a less than stellar credit risk. With rumblings of a further downgrade in the future. Basically we are Greece but we can print our own money.

And no, I most violently disagree that we should raise taxes. We should be lowering taxes. The idea of raising taxes scares the bejeesus out of me as it should out of any clear thinking US citizen. We are already tremendously overtaxed. Business and individuals are chokingly overtaxed with the result business moves offshore and people like me contemplate moving to Thailand. (Looks like Whirlpool announced today its moving to Mexico)

Yes, but you will notice it was carefully placed after the negative comment about GM and the positive comments about Toyota and Nissan.

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tom w Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (2:51 pm)

MIke: Then we should just GIVE everyone in the US a Volt, subsidized with borrowed money from China. By your argument it will create more economic activity than they cost. Keep the money spent down at the filling station on Venezuelan in our economy. If 200,000 subsidized Volts creates a positive economic activity, why stop with 200K? Why not 1,000,000? And why $7500? Why not $39,000 in subsidies?

Now you are just being intentionally stupid.

Though i wouldn’t mind getting rid of the SUBSIDY now because companies are alredy committed to EV’s, and without the subsidy they would have to bring the costs down a lot sooner. They would have to create bare bones Volt and EV focus without the fancy radio and other ad ons.

But my point was that the $7500 credit was justifiable (its just how the credit is structured that is misguided). Spending tax money on hopes of a payback has to stop. EV credits clearly keep much more money than the credit from leaving the country for imported oil because oil is fungible. Every extra barrel we consume we must import. Every barrel we don’t consume because of an EV means we don’t send that money overseas. If an EV saves 10-20,000 in imported oil in its lifetime it has earned the $7500 credit. Also as EV’s grow in numbers and help lower demand for oil, this will contribute to lower oil prices, another payback.

I watched oreilly scoff at Herman Cain yesterday when he asked him what he would do about IRAN.

Cain began with first we must become ENERGY INDEPENDENT. Oreilly , just went over his head.

Cain is right. Not only are we weak because our economy is crumbling, but we are weak because we are dependent on the middle east for oil. We can’t shut down IRAN because we need their oil. Cain pointed out if we weren’t importing oil, PRICES would fall and IRAN would be hurt economically and we could cut them off total if we wanted to.

Energy independence is HUGE. Allowing us to keep our money in our economy. Allowing us to be able to do whatever we want overseas. We can stop patrolling the oil lanes, or we can squeeze a country like IRAN that is supporting terrorism.

Wait a minute.. what about all that domestic oil drilling you talked about? Where is all the $ coming for that? Subsidies. So if you want to stop subsidies, let’s stop the ones for fossil fuels first. You know what a fossil fuel is right? After X years its gone.. forever. Your value of X may be larger than other people’s, but the fact is, it’s still gone. So why keep using this stuff for transportation when we know its gonna dry up and there are a lot better uses for it than just burning it up? (I wont get into the heath/environment stuff since that is besides my point) How much money do we waste fighting oil-wars in foreign countries? Trillions. Much more than a small EV subsidy. You need to think a little more long term, and you’ll see we can’t afford to NOT do this.

And a country’s wealth is not measured simply by its debt. I saw a great documentary on this, breaking it down into such detail as to the value of buildings to the education of its citizens. There are so many intangibles.

LauraM: like Warren Buffet’s suggestion–make a law that renders all current members of congress ineligible for reelection if the deficit exceeds three percent of GDP

Better idea. Don’t allow ANY MONEY to be used for federal campain advertising.

Put an end once and for all to corruption and money buying candidates, and candidates taking care of who got them elected.

Just require X amount of DEBATES which they already do willingly. There is plenty of talking heads about candidates and issues non stop on TV and radio.

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-1

Charlie H Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (3:19 pm)

Jeff Cobb: Dear GM-Volt readers –
I say this with respect for every single one of you. I am privileged to be able to write for you. If you don’t know it, sometimes I will work (with breaks and other responsibilities thrown in) from morning till night to research and polish stories for you.
My dilemma:

I understand. However, what do we post and not post? This deserves a separate forum thread (since closed to me, of course) for discussion but the basic problem is that we can’t read your mind. I initially posted some sales data and, while I am perfectly willing to respect your request not to step on your upcoming topics, I don’t know what they are. In September, for example, there doesn’t appear to be a “Monthly Sales” article.

Would it make sense to include something at the top on “Upcoming Articles” where you lay out your plans for the next couple of days?

As I said, I’m certainly willing to postpone some items to avoid stealing your thunder but I’d also hate to unnecessarily self-censor and deprive my adoring fans of my wisdom and insight.

Ask yourself what constitutes newsworthy for GM-Volt’s readership? What do the people here care about the most?

It includes, but is not limited to: Volt news, Voltec news, competitors to Voltec news, GM advanced-tech news, American advanced tech news, energy industry news that can make a difference, etc.

If a whole new car is coming out (like the Spark EV), that was a no-brainer for next day GM-Volt.

It would have had to have been a really unbelievable huge news story for the Nissan Leaf for me to write on that topic and not publish the Spark’s story.

The watchword is “newsworthy.”

This is defined by what is most important to the unique audience of this site.

And you can always e-mail me with story ideas and questions too, Charlie.

Regards,

Jeff

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+2

LauraM Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (3:52 pm)

MIke: And in case you missed it, Standard and Poor downrated the US bond rating in August.

Yes. I know. Did you read their report? They downgraded us because of political dysfunction. For that, we can blame a)the republicans, and b) the tea party. If you can’t compromise, you can’t govern. Period. The republicans had already agreed to the budget. That’s when you should decide about how much debt you’re willing to take on. Not say, oops, we agreed to too much spending when the question of raising the debt ceiling comes up. And create a crisis for the sake of creating a crisis.

MIke: And no, I most violently disagree that we should raise taxes. We should be lowering taxes. The idea of raising taxes scares the bejeesus out of me as it should out of any clear thinking US citizen. We are already tremendously overtaxed. Business and individuals are chokingly overtaxed with the result business moves offshore and people like me contemplate moving to Thailand. (Looks like Whirlpool announced today its moving to Mexico)

We should be lowering taxes? And yet we should get rid of the deficit? Do you want us to default on social security and medicare, or eliminate defense spending? Because that’s pretty much the only way that could happen. So which of the three would you cut?

But if you want to move to Thailand, because you think things will be so much better there, and it won’t interfere with your earning capacity–please go ahead. The cost of living is definitely lower there. Just as long as you don’t want to buy anything imported. (The VAT there can be kind of crazy.) It’s a beautiful country with great food, and friendly people. I found the heat draining (and I was there in December which is supposed to be cooler), but you might not. And there are cooler areas in the mountains…I think driving there would scary, but that might not bother you.

Of course, it rains half the year. The political situation is rather unstable. And free speech isn’t exactly, well, just don’t say anything negative about the government when you’re not at home with your family, and you should be fine.

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+3

Steve Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (3:55 pm)

Here’s a real world situation for Volt versus the Leaf competition. The power was out for several days here after Irene so good luck charging your all electric car. Snowstorm brought the power down again last Saturday and restoration forecast is not until maybe next Sunday. With the gasoline option, at least I’m still mobile.

Ha, what a bunch of FUD in that article. There were so many “facts” skewed or just completely wrong. I especially like the last paragraph and then the disclosure. What did Arsenio Hall used to say… “things that make you go hmmm”

————————
The surprise winners in a resource constrained world will most likely be disruptive innovations like the PbC® battery from Axion Power International (AXPW.OB) which uses a third less metal while promising a 10-fold improvement in battery cycle life to optimize the performance of efficiency technologies like stop-start systems, stationary applications and hybrid drive for everything from passenger cars to freight trains.

Disclosure:

Author is a former director of Axion Power International and holds a substantial long position in its common stock.

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+1

Noel Park Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (4:00 pm)

MIke: Then we should just GIVE everyone in the US a Volt, subsidized with borrowed money from China.

#83

Works for me! I’ve suggested it many times. WAY cheaper than the externalized costs of imported oil.

And what difference does any of that matter? Sales goals have been set and repeatedly confirmed.

102

+1

Noel Park Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (4:05 pm)

Jeff Cobb: *As for the”news coming out all the time” issue, it becomes a conflict of this site’s interest when people post off-topic news and links redirecting people away from here to stories I am working on for the next day.

#80

I dunno, I see this as sort of a non-problem. I see the links posted all the time and then your detailed stories coming out the next morning. It doesn’t bother me a bit, and I don’t see where it distracts from your work at all. I always read your stuff all the way through and comment, regardless of who posted what previously. All I’m saying is don’t stress. You’re doing great.

Noel Park: Gee, I remember when poor old Jimmy Carter said that over 30 years ago. Look where it got him, LOL. And us, come to think of it.

I’ve always thought that was as much about the messenger as the actual message. Other presidents have asked for sacrifice before. Carter just wasn’t a very good leader. I wasn’t around at the time, but my mother is a dedicated liberal, and she hated Carter.

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tom w Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (4:18 pm)

Noel Park: Gee, I remember when poor old Jimmy Carter said that over 30 years ago. Look where it got him, LOL. And us, come to think of it.

Jimmy Carter’s idea for energy independence was to heat our homes to 55 in the winter and drive 55 on the highways. I like 9-9-9 better than 55/55 of Jimmy Carter.

Everyone on this board is all over the place, but there is ONLY ONE way to become ENERGY INDEPENDENT in the next 10 years.

1) DRILL like crazy for now while knowing that at same time we are working to displace Oil
2) Increase renewable and nuclear electric power generation (read about GE’s latest wind turbines), wind and nuclear OVER 30 years is already cheaper than fossil fuels. We just need newer smaller nuclear plants. No black lung, clean air, etc.
3) Use electricity for transportation (electric trains, GM VOLTs etc) , and home heating (instead of fuel oil).

It would take 10 years to really get the flow from the Artic Golf North Dakota etc going.
It will take 20 years to replace our fleet of cars and work on other solutions to oil.

And the only way to make 1,2,3 above happen is with government credits.
The problem is government has so badly mismanaged our finances noone trusts them.
They couldn’t even to the EV credits right.

Problem with power generation is demand for power is flat so why would companies want to invest in wind and nuclear when they don’t need new power etc. It will take 30 years to gradually replace current power generation with wind and nuclear but we need to have the credits in place now so that we are moving in that direction. Reasonable credits for Wind(2cent 10 year prod tax credit)/Nuclear with streamlined regulation.

Wrong. Cutting spending during a recession is suicide. The economy will spiral down into nothingness.

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kdawg Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (4:26 pm)

LauraM: Noel Park: Gee, I remember when poor old Jimmy Carter said that over 30 years ago. Look where it got him, LOL. And us, come to think of it.
I’ve always thought that was as much about the messenger as the actual message. Other presidents have asked for sacrifice before. Carter just wasn’t a very good leader. I wasn’t around at the time, but my mother is a dedicated liberal, and she hated Carter.

Our country has suffered from 1-driver, 1-car for so long. What would help oil usage?

- car pooling (seriously!)
- auto tuneups, better maintenance and a few psi in the tires over suggested pressure
- conservation of trips (don’t just cruise around, make good plans…)
- hybridization and e-Assist of just about everything
- synthetic oils
- lower the repetitive stuff. How much oil is spent on doing spectator sports including Nascar, Baseball, NBA, PGA, NHL and all that? Cut all sports seasons by 5% of events. Savings would be huge with very very little “emotional difference”. Including college sporting events.

110

tom w Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (4:46 pm)

Loboc: Wrong. Cutting spending during a recession is suicide. The economy will spiral down into nothingness.

First what is really needed is to stop WASTE.

#1) get rid of corruption in government by removing campain financing. No more politicians bought and paid for, no more campain advertising (use youtube, websites, debates, cable tv radio interviews).
#2) balanced budget amendment phased in
#3) no more earmarks

And then of course we need economic growth which won’t happen if we don’t make companies and american workers more competitive. Cut regulation, change taxes aka 9-9-9

Biggest thing people have to do is stop the class warfare.
Unions don’t get it. The enemy is not companies or governments they work for, but the fact that american workers can’t compete globally. We need to remove the payroll cost of workers and the health care cost of workers (needs to be paid for completely differently, not by companies who then just go overseas for programers, factories etc.)

111

+1

pat Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (4:48 pm)

How much hate these idiots have for O? without the cash from Fed GM wud have gone under and millions more jobs wud have been lost! GM is profitable now and they have learned a biitter lesson. They are on a strong rebound and exporting Volts to other countries – more US jobs. Can these crazies understand what benefit the economy has from revival of GM? Look at other countries China India etc they know which companies to help so they can overpower the other nations in exports…Alas the indiots in this country will never understand.

Go GM. My hope is that you will prove the naysayers wrong and wrong again.

Why is this ‘suffering’? The US was built on cheap energy and we can build infrastructure to sustain cheap energy in the future. (Electricity, for example, is 1/4 the cost of gasoline to go the same distance. CNG is 1/3.)

What is needed more than conservation is a comprehensive energy plan. Our leaders have failed us in this important initiative. With proper incentives and direction, we could convert enough of our fleet to CNG and EV that we would not need Persian Gulf oil. This could be done in a short timeframe (less than 10 years) if a moon-shot type of program were initiated.

Home heating could be done with NG or electricity as well eliminating a huge chunk of oil consumption. Nuclear is way under-utilized as well.

Continuing to dump money offshore to get energy is plain dumb when we have the resources here. Take that money and push it into conversion and sustainable energy programs.

As far as conservation:

Just going to 4/10s instead of 5/8s workdays would eliminate 20% of the consumption! Where’s the work-at-home incentive plan? Right now, it’s a dis-incentive plan because of the draconian tax laws.

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+1

Jackson Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (5:19 pm)

Jeff Cobb: Do I have your support or no? Some people voted me up then down on #80.

You have my support every single day.

I serve you every single day. And some people have negative voted me?

I sense your frustration keenly, as this is frequently the case for my comments (particularly those which bash our most unwanted visitor). We do support and appreciate you, but please don’t confuse the community with the Internet. Many people vote here who never post, I suspect; and the site has long had it’s enemies (about half are listed at Priuschat as ‘friends’ of john1701a).

That said, the kitchen in the Internet can get hot. Really hot. That’s just part of it. Try not to take it personally (written by someone who has lost his cool here more times than anyone can count).

… take my advice, I’m not using it …

116

tom w Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (5:38 pm)

Loboc: Why is this ‘suffering’? The US was built on cheap energy and we can build infrastructure to sustain cheap energy in the future. (Electricity, for example, is 1/4 the cost of gasoline to go the same distance. CNG is 1/3.)
What is needed more than conservation is a comprehensive energy plan. Our leaders have failed us in this important initiative. With proper incentives and direction, we could convert enough of our fleet to CNG and EV that we would not need Persian Gulf oil. This could be done in a short timeframe (less than 10 years) if a moon-shot type of program were initiated.
Home heating could be done with NG or electricity as well eliminating a huge chunk of oil consumption. Nuclear is way under-utilized as well.
Continuing to dump money offshore to get energy is plain dumb when we have the resources here. Take that money and push it into conversion and sustainable energy programs.
As far as conservation:
Just going to 4/10s instead of 5/8s workdays would eliminate 20% of the consumption! Where’s the work-at-home incentive plan? Right now, it’s a dis-incentive plan because of the draconian tax laws.

The key is yes this country was built on cheap energy. Thats why we need to move from what used to be cheap but is just going to get more expensive (that includes coal and CNG, that stuff won’t be cheap for 500 years, prices will go up on that as well). So its time to move to renewables/nuclear GRADUALLY over 30 years.

In the meantime we need to drill oil like crazy because its better to drill our own then pay crippling prices from our enemies. Also we are crippled in our ability to deal with threats from the middle east because of our dependence on their energy, this must stop ASAP

It’s the feeling of being manipulated that I don’t like. The Internet is a free-for-all with any and all material available instantly. Any attempt to slow/monitor/redirect/censure this flow of information is a negative.

I get that the main page is daily and sometimes we get a little off track, but, that’s the way free-flowing information works. Yep, it’s not a newspaper. That’s part of the beauty.

This is a community of like-minded individuals and Lyle happened to tap into that energy (in a BIG way). Trying to bend it into something else just won’t work imho. As a community, we have some unwritten rules, but, I don’t think those rules can be dictated.

Maybe O.T. posts can be moved to the forum with a little persuasion? At one time, Lyle was going to require a forum logon to access the front page as well. Maybe you need to go there to bring some sense of order.

BTW, I always +1 anything you have to say. You’re doing an excellent job keeping the site alive and working.

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ziv Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (5:57 pm)

Laura, Jon Stewart did a bit on the same quote about the US needing to become less dependent on foreign oil, but he also dug up video of every president since Ford saying exactly the same thing in nearly the same words. It was kind of cool to see Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2 all in the same boat!

LauraM: I’ve always thought that was as much about the messenger as the actual message.Other presidents have asked for sacrifice before.Carter just wasn’t a very good leader.I wasn’t around at the time, but my mother is a dedicated liberal, and shehatedCarter.

120

Jackson Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (5:58 pm)

Dear John,

Thank you for proving my point in #115, paragraph one so eloquently. [-1] to you, too.

121

Sean Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (6:12 pm)

If people don’t like the Volt? In the future there really going to pay for the price when gas keeps going up! Sure it’s not at that point right now but give it a few years and they’ll feel the true pain of terror when those price skyrocket once again only time will tell and those naysayers will be wishing there was something else than gas.

122

+2

Sean Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (6:26 pm)

Also naysayers out there the Volt can also be run on solar panels and even wind if your power company is using it also I know this is a fossil fuel but I would rather use it over coal and most of Washington State uses it in most of the state and that is natural gas by far the least polluting fossil fuel out there and we even use hydro power as well too. So naysayers out there it’s not always about coal or oil powering our grid give it some thought before you say an electric car is a coal burner on wheels absolutely not completely true at all so think twice and look up the facts before you start ranting about nonsense!

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+3

Noel Park Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (6:32 pm)

tom w: Jimmy Carter’s idea for energy independence was to heat our homes to 55 in the winter and drive 55 on the highways.

#106

Jimmy Carter did and/or tried to do a lot more than that. Those were just things which could be implemented quickly and at minimum cost. He was a leader in the first wave of wind and solar development. He installed solar panels on the White House, which Ronald Reagan removed. He started a lot of research and development on alternatives to oil, including a lot of work on oil shale. Can anyone say “Parachute Creek Colorado”? Look it up.

124

Ross Buchan Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (6:39 pm)

Any strings on those of us with Alternative Minimum Tax qualifing for the rebates?

Thanks

125

+1

Noel Park Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (6:53 pm)

LauraM: I wasn’t around at the time, but my mother is a dedicated liberal, and she hated Carter.

#105

I was around at the time and, like many others I’m sure, I voted for Reagan in 1980 because I was so terrified of the inflation. Carter had already put Paul Volker in as the Fed Chairman, who broke the back of the inflation (prime 18%!), but I was too dumb to understand it and it was too late for Carter. I have come to regard that vote as one of the biggest mistakes of my life. And, i have come to respect JC as a really smart guy and a true statesman. We would have been much better off if he had been reelected IMHO.

My dad, who was from upstate New York, used to quote a mythical “Pennsylvania Dutchman” as saying:

It’s the feeling of being manipulated that I don’t like. The Internet is a free-for-all with any and all material available instantly. Any attempt to slow/monitor/redirect/censure this flow of information is a negative.

I get that the main page is daily and sometimes we get a little off track, but, that’s the way free-flowing information works. Yep, it’s not a newspaper. That’s part of the beauty.

This is a community of like-minded individuals and Lyle happened to tap into that energy (in a BIG way). Trying to bend it into something else just won’t work imho. As a community, we have some unwritten rules, but, I don’t think those rules can be dictated.

Maybe O.T. posts can be moved to the forum with a little persuasion? At one time, Lyle was going to require a forum logon to access the front page as well. Maybe you need to go there to bring some sense of order.

BTW, I always +1 anything you have to say. You’re doing an excellent job keeping the site alive and working.

Well my friend, it kind of depends on how you look at things. I understand your points. I’d like to think my mind is not so far away from the like-minded people Lyle first attracted.

As far as being manipulated, from where I sit, it’s the exact opposite:

I would not have bothered to ask Yahoo News readers the same thing I did above.

While some comments under Yahoo’s stories are thoughtful and polite, often times haters say anything from their anonymous positions – often things they’d be ashamed of if their family or friends knew what they wrote.

But GM-Volt is not the dark underbelly of the Internet. As you say it is a community of like-minded people.

Want to know why I took a chance with GM-Volt readers? Because I give this readership far more benefit of the doubt.

A lot of you are quite insightful and know your stuff. The IQ around here is higher on average, and so what I wrote was an appeal to intelligent people asking them if they would kindly consider my dilemma.

If that’s throwing a boulder into the free-flowing information stream, I could see your point, but I am still limited in what I can do.

As I said in post #80 above –

“People have said I can still devise a fresh angle. Fact is, a lot of times the news is what it is (brief and basic, not tons of details), and I cannot add a fresh angle to it of any substance … I do believe in the “free marketplace of ideas” as much as the next person, but we are not running a rolling scroll of news here and cannot keep up with peoples’ OT posts of breaking news.”

So, I pretty much took into account what you replied with before you replied.

I started here at the beginning of March. When I was first thrown in to put out the fire after Lyle’s departure and a bunch of quickie posts had upset the readers. I put in some seriously long days the first few months, and still do. I recognized from the start this was a higher quality than most group of people.

If you would like to know a bit more, I still often work till 1-2 a.m. on stuff making every word flow.

Today I was tied up all day doing a hybrid cars dashboard for HybridCars.com and here at 7:20, I have yet to write the GM-Volt story for tomorrow – but you will get one just the same.

Oh also, this weekend, because of a storm I had no power, running water, heat or Internet from Saturday to Monday night but you all got my Cavuto and Opel story on time and edited.

I poured a lot of heart into the Cavuto story, sitting in a Starbucks using free wifi to serve this readership, and on the whole I attempt to give this relatively small readership a lot as often as I can.

Tomorrow I’ll write about a story pre-posted here today. It’s probably the biggest EV news today, and I can’t skip it. The company has said what little it has to say, and I’ll add some quirkiness and a twist to it, but you all know the deal, so it’s not fresh any more.

What I asked today is a choice of free-will from what I consider generally high quality people, not manipulation at all.

I give to you, and this time asked you to give back just a little consideration to me – and the fellow readers here in this community.

I don’t like it when I cannot really give you fresh news and it’s just a rehash with little more.

Again, I’d not ask people to think twice before posting “newsworthy” stories if this were some other Web site, but this is GM-Volt, and it was a vote of confidence in you all for me to take that chance.

Regards,

J

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evnow Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (7:26 pm)

Jeff Cobb: *As for the”news coming out all the time” issue, it becomes a conflict of this site’s interest when people post off-topic news and links redirecting people away from here to stories I am working on for the next day.

Well, you can’t tame the internet. It has its own speed. I’d say just let it be – and work on your well researched posts – that is going to be far more rewarding that swatting flies. They will still have value – afterall some write weekly blog posts.

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evnow Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (7:31 pm)

Nelson: OT,I took another online car survey yesterday and these survey companies still don’t understand the Volt.This company had the following types of alternative fuel vehicles.BEVHybridPlug-in-HybridFuel CellFlex FuelDieselCompressed Natural GasThey consider the Volt a plug-in-hybrid when in reality it’s more like a BEV-Hybrid or as we all know an Extended Range Electric Vehicle EREV….NPNS!Volt#671

Volt is a Plug-in Hybrid. EREV is just a marketing term GM came up with – the generic category is PHEV. You have various types of PHEV – including Parallel, Serial and some combination. Volt is a (mostly) serial PHEV. Karma (and i3 with ICE option) is a pure serial PHEV. Prius PHV & Energi are mostly parallel PHEVs.

Meanwhile OEM manufacturers are releasing EREV/BEVs stocked full of un-needed options so they can make a few extra bucks while not getting ahead of the curve because of the 200,000 limit on the full credit per OEM.

Knock several thousand off the price of these cars and ramp up production and lets start something meaningful here.

‘Rose Garden’ Jimmy Carter was a failure so huge that even the press corps refused to hide the pictures of him whacking a drowning rabbit to death. They could have chosen not to publish but they knew he was too weak to survive. Carter was emblematic of everything wrong with America in 1980, he was strong but felt weak, he was bright but allowed himself to be distracted, he was leader of a strong nation that others looked to for leadership but was ashamed of his own history, and he failed to stand up for what was right, allowing zealots in Iran to make him look like a fool. 4 more years of Carter’s cowardice on an international scale could have been disastrous. Gerald Ford was leading America in the right direction, Jimmy Carter nearly drove us into the ditch.
But, not so oddly, the media did choose to ignore our current president Obama’s weaknesses, his ties to Alinsky, Wright, Ayers, Rezko, etc. Carter redux may be the best case we can expect from Obama.
The sad thing is that Carter isn’t stupid, he doesn’t intend to do harm, and yet he damages everything he touches. He is an earlier version of Al Gore, though more intelligent and likeable.
I can’t believe I am entering this political an entry on GM-volt, but the days of restraint seem to be over. So what is 2012 going to look like?
LOL

Jimmy Carter did and/or tried to do a lot more than that.Those were just things which could be implemented quickly and at minimum cost.He was a leader in the first wave of wind and solar development.He installed solar panels on the White House, which Ronald Reagan removed.He started a lot of research and development on alternatives to oil, including a lot of work on oil shale.Can anyone say “Parachute Creek Colorado”?Look it up.

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Sean Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (9:06 pm)

Also I saw this on my local news and looked on there website and found an article that talks about the Seattle auto show talking about green cars and yes the Volt and the Leaf are shown in here do enjoy the article and the photos they provided here you go guys. http://www.king5.com/home/Seattle-Auto-Show–133119838.html
I also may give this a look in Seattle before it’s out of here on November 6th?

Loboc: Just going to 4/10s instead of 5/8s workdays would eliminate 20% of the consumption! Where’s the work-at-home incentive plan? Right now, it’s a dis-incentive plan because of the draconian tax laws.

This has become a very political thread, in a very political season; and I’d like to remind all that one of the Volt’s greatest strengths (on this site, anyway) has always been it’s ability to bring together many disparate points of view in agreement: on the value of the Volt itself.

In the midst of heat and ire, we need to keep this strength in mind (Politics are sure to become much hotter by this time next year).

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LauraM Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (11:00 pm)

tom w: Better idea. Don’t allow ANY MONEY to be used for federal campain advertising.

Put an end once and for all to corruption and money buying candidates, and candidates taking care of who got them elected.

Just require X amount of DEBATES which they already do willingly. There is plenty of talking heads about candidates and issues non stop on TV and radio.

I think that’s something we can all agree on. There would be ways around it, but the more hoops the lobbyists have to jump through, the better. Unfortunately, I don’t think it would ever pass..

That said, the two suggestions are not mutually exclusive.

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kdawg Says

Nov 2nd, 2011 (11:01 pm)

ziv: Laura, Jon Stewart did a bit on the same quote about the US needing to become less dependent on foreign oil, but he also dug up video of every president since Ford saying exactly the same thing in nearly the same words. It was kind of cool to see Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2 all in the same boat!

Noel Park: Yeah, a good portion of it is under water at the moment actually.

That too. For the record, my post was not meant as a critique of Thailand. It’s a beautiful fascinating country that’s well worth a visit. And I can see many people being happy to retire there. Like everywhere else, there are negatives. But there are also many positives.

However, I’m really sick of the whole grass is greener attitude so many people seem to have. We live in one of the richest countries on earth with one of the highest standards living, with one of the highest qualities of life, and all people seem to do is complain. There are billions of people who would do anything to be able to move here. Mexicans routinely risk their lives to sneak into this country to do jobs that no one on this board has ever had to consider. Yes. We have problems, but moving out of the country is not the solution.

Noel Park: I was around at the time and, like many others I’m sure, I voted for Reagan in 1980 because I was so terrified of the inflation. Carter had already put Paul Volker in as the Fed Chairman, who broke the back of the inflation (prime 18%!), but I was too dumb to understand it and it was too late for Carter. I have come to regard that vote as one of the biggest mistakes of my life. And, i have come to respect JC as a really smart guy and a true statesman. We would have been much better off if he had been reelected IMHO.

My dad, who was from upstate New York, used to quote a mythical “Pennsylvania Dutchman” as saying:

“Ve get too soon oldt, und too late schmart” Alas, too true.

But that’s because he wasn’t a good leader. He should have explained what Paul Volcker was going to do. He could have taken his case to the people, but, unlike, say, FDR, he didn’t have the necessary charisma. Or possibly the right speech writers. I agree with most of his policies. And, absolutely, he is a brilliant man. But leadership ability matters. Bottom line, he was unable to inspire people. And that’s a huge flaw in a president.

True. But Jimmy Carter was the last one to acknowledge that it might actually involve some sacrifice, and the voters tossed him out of office. And ever since then, politicians have been afraid to ask voters for anything. And that’s led to us to where we are now.

Jeff Cobb: “…this weekend, because of a storm I had no power, running water, heat or Internet from Saturday to Monday night but you all got my Cavuto and Opel story on time and edited.

I poured a lot of heart into the Cavuto story, sitting in a Starbucks using free wifi to serve this readership, and on the whole I attempt to give this relatively small readership a lot as often as I can.”

Jeff, I (for one) deeply appreciate your sincerity, commitment and hard work! I have a book on writing skills whose title is, “Good Reading is Hard Writing” (now out of print, I think). But the title says it all. And I want to offer you my enthusiastic vote of confidence for exemplary writing, Jeff!!!

And as you & I have discussed privately by email, I’ll never knowingly post an important OT or “breaking news” comment here —if I think the topic deserves your thorough writeup as a leading topic, I’ll email my thoughts to you privately at jcobb@verticalscope.com, and I propose that everyone else here do the same. Not only as a professional courtesy, but because you can research the topic & cover it in much greater depth and detail than most of us are able to, including myself.

We’re very fortunate to have you as our “standard bearer” at gm-volt! Keep up the great work!!!

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jeffhre Says

Nov 3rd, 2011 (12:28 am)

evnow: You have various types of PHEV – including Parallel, Serial and some combination. Volt is a (mostly) serial PHEV. Karma (and i3 with ICE option) is a pure serial PHEV. Prius PHV & Energi are mostly parallel PHEVs.

…And parallel; and initially battery electric; and mainly all electric; and mainly hybrid – for anyone who can’t charge at home, unless of course they can charge at work, and if their commute is less than 40 miles round trip then it reverts to nearly all EV.

Mostly serial PHEV, that’s it…for real?

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jeffhre Says

Nov 3rd, 2011 (12:39 am)

Jeff Cobb: What I asked today is a choice of free-will from what I consider generally high quality people, not manipulation at all.

I like the way you put that, maybe you can add it as boilerplate when you ask for simple COOPERATION so that the few who are potentially offended understand that they are not being forced into giving away their rights under the First Amendment, but that it would be appreciated if they exercised their free will in this way.

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Like_Budda Says

Nov 3rd, 2011 (1:16 am)

evnow: Volt is a Plug-in Hybrid. EREV is just a marketing term GM came up with – the generic category is PHEV. You have various types of PHEV – including Parallel, Serial and some combination. Volt is a (mostly) serial PHEV.

I don’t know much.
But even a first year mechanical engineering student knows this is totally incorrect.
The Volt is at first a BEV and then transforms to a (mostly) serial plug-in hybrid only after it’s initial grid-charge is depleted. (as in 25-50 miles)
So for anybody driving a Volt less than 50 miles daily it is in fact a pure BEV in every way shape and form! (and the mere presence of a totally non-functional ICE and tail-pipe at this point is absolutely meaningless!)
Certainly as much of a BEV as the Nissan Leaf, UP TO THAT POINT!

Now vehicles like the Prius (plug in or otherwise) and others that you have listed as “parallel” are in fact technically “series-parallel” hybrids as they can (at times) commit their powerflows as such. (either series OR parallel paths of power)

“Pure” parallel hybrids will typically only have one electric motor and can only contribute torque in parallel to the primary source (ICE), (either alone or in conjunction) but since they can’t be a generator at the same time, power is ALWAYS sourced from the high voltage energy source. (thus no series power flow can exist)

Examples of parallel hybrids include the Honda IMA system, BMW ActiveHybrid and the Mercedes systems. Other parallel systems are the now deceased GM parallel hybrid truck (2004-06 PHT Silverado) and the GM belted alternator starter (BAS) and new eAssist systems as they all employ a single electric machine mechanically aligned with the ICE in such a fashion that they are ONLY able to provide a parallel path of power.

For somebody named “EVNOW” you should bone up on your engneering! j/k
.LB

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jeffhre Says

Nov 3rd, 2011 (1:34 am)

MIke: All government handouts must end. We can easily cut spending 10% tomorrow. We need to cut spending at least 30%. We can do that easily too, within a period of 1 presidential administration. Start with subsidies for electric cars. We can not afford this.

Where do you come up with these nice round numbers relating to a government whose accounting systems are entirely opaque? eg. 1) The pentagon has no idea how much it spends, 2) The Administration constantly presses Congress to authorizes raids on various funds to meet operating expenses, making many parts of Government seem insolvent ie Social Security, which makes great media spots and of course scares the bejeesus out of people who depend on them. Until they miraculously don’t implode on the random date of death picked by pundits.

Do you think that people who have had the bejeesus scared out of them are thinking rationally? Or will they just become fodder for the media that needs them for ad revenue, or the pols that need them for votes?

The US uses 25% of the worlds oil demand, pumps 6% of the of the worlds supply and has 3% of the worlds reserves. The US has the worlds best oil exploration technology and the worlds best drilling technologies. The geologists engineers and mangers who lead the industry are the best educated, most diversely experienced. The US petroleum industry has the deepest financial and investment backing, and the worlds largest investment bankers and commodity traders want to play a larger role in the industry. Through out the world many leaders find that they support the industry and gain wealth or fight it and suffer irreparable political losses.

Despite these layers of financial, technical, managerial and political resources, the US portion of petroleum demand satisfied by domestic production has consistently fallen since the 1970′s. Does it really sound like there is an easy way to drill our way out of this, despite nearly 40 years of evidence to the contrary? Bakken shale is a great example. The technology to extract process and refine it economically may come online in the future. Although today oil needs to be well over $100 dollars a barrel for it to attract investment.

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MIke Says

Nov 3rd, 2011 (3:05 am)

jeffhre: Where do you come up with these nice round numbers relating to a government whose accounting systems are entirely opaque?

Form working in a major department of my state’s government for many years. Preceded by working in a similar capacity at the municipal level. I saw tremendous waste on a daily basis and personally generated horrifying waste by going along with my department’s spending policies.

For example at the end of the fiscal year we did a mad scramble to spend every dime in our budget. Otherwise our budget would be cut back as obviously we were awarded too much. I personally bought stuff the department really didn’t need simply to spend the money on something. Utterly wasted money.
The Feds do the same thing on a national level. But they do it at the Big League level.

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MIke Says

Nov 3rd, 2011 (3:32 am)

jeffhre: The US uses 25% of the worlds oil demand, pumps 6% of the of the worlds supply and has 3% of the worlds reserves.

You might want to check the reserve numbers for shale oil in El Paso county Colorado. While your at it check the latest projections for the Bakken, and Eagle Ford too. Figures being touted are 1.2 to 1.5 to 2 trillion barrels recoverable. Yes trillions. Thats something like 5 times the reserves of Saudia Arabia for a start.

Looks like the US is swimming in oil. And we are just getting started.

150

Charlie H Says

Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:21 am)

MIke: You might want to check the reserve numbers for shale oil in El Paso county Colorado. While your at it check the latest projections for the Bakken, and Eagle Ford too. Figures being touted are 1.2 to 1.5 to 2 trillion barrels recoverable. Yes trillions. Thats something like 5 times the reserves of Saudia Arabia for a start. Looks like the US is swimming in oil. And we are just getting started.

From Wikipedia:
“Besides being a widespread prolific source rock for oil when thermally mature, there are also significant producible reserves of oil within the Bakken formation itself.[3] Oil was first discovered within the Bakken in 1951, but efforts to produce it have historically met with difficulties. An April 2008 USGS report estimated the amount of technically recoverable oil using technology readily available at the end of 2007 within the Bakken Formation at 3.0 to 4.3 billion barrels (680,000,000 m3), with a mean of 3.65 billion.[4] The state of North Dakota also released a report that month which estimated that there are 2.1 billion barrels (330,000,000 m3) of technically recoverable oil in the Bakken.[5] Various other estimates place the total reserves, recoverable and non-recoverable with today’s technology, at up to 24 billion barrels. The most recent estimate places the figure at 18 billion barrels.”

You should be checking your facts.

151

Bob Says

Nov 3rd, 2011 (8:42 am)

Do we have a date for MyLink pricing yet? Last time I asked the rumors were that we would find out in November… is there any more news? I’m waiting to buy a 2012 Volt until I know how much MyLink will cost and when I’ll be able to get a Volt with MyLink in it.

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lousloot Says

Nov 3rd, 2011 (1:01 pm)

Off topic political (stuff) is OFF TOPIC and should go in a separate thread or in teh Circular file.

Jimmy Carter???!!!

W! T! F!

now, would someone please explain why the silly “START” button is there and what happens when you press it at 60mph. The sales guy was unable to answer. (yea, its off topic but at least it is about the Volt and not about…
Jimmy Carter. y guys r serly drivng my angermgmt drugs to the brink.)

be happy.

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WopOnTour Says

Nov 3rd, 2011 (7:48 pm)

lousloot:
now, would someone please explain why the silly “START” button is there and what happens when you press it at 60mph. The sales guy was unable to answer.(yea, its off topic but at least it is about the Volt and not about…
be happy.

If you press the POWER button accidentally while moving, a warning chime sounds and a message pops up on the instrument panel to “PRESS POWER BUTTON AGAIN TO POWER OFF” (meant to be used in an emergency shut down scenario)
You can also PRESS AND HOLD the button for 5 seconds to do the same thing…
HTH
WopOnTour

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Truman Says

Nov 4th, 2011 (10:45 pm)

Whatever happened with GE promising to buy 12,000 Chevy Volts in the next few years ?

I can’t believe the arguing about all the sales figures. Like angles fitting on the head of a pin. It basically looks like you folks are the cheerleaders for pushing an expensive and economically unsound technology on the masses. We will see by next year is the public needs and wants this. Until then please let the rest of us vent as this experiment is being funded by the taxpayers. Before you jump me, I own a Chevy SUV and wanted to buy American. Joke on me as its made in Canada. At least that country is moving away from socialism.