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Hadn't heard this recording before. This is a work -one that used to be a favourite of mine- i'd learnt to find quite tedious and theatrical. After hearing Lewenthal I think I can blame the performances. That was amazing. Thanks for sharing!

I've found that with Liszt quite often. It's so easy for a performance to give Liszt a bad name. Liszt wrote much of his music with his performance capabilities in mind - it's almost as if every time you play Liszt you're measuring yourself up against his vision, which was perhaps exemplified by the way he played his music. A great performance like this one brings you close to Liszt's intentions, and you realise the sublime vision that he attempted to convey. I've found that very few performances do this in each of Liszt's finest works, but when you find one that does, everything comes together and any doubts about the music itself get eradicated.

yes, I'm really attracted to extreme romanticism. Early on I was a Mahler fan, and his scores really reveal an untempered Romantic at work. On my youtube channel marknicol7 I have a work, Ulysses, the first movement of Symphony in Indigo, which I best describe as Super-Romanticism. It draws from the ethos of Mahler and Wagner.

I get what you mean about freedom, and freedom is the most dangerous thing. Mahler was obliquely critical of Brahms for 'not doing enough' with his themes: More likely, he didn't like Brahms' conservative nature.

Having dinner with a concert pianist, Gil Sullivan, tomorrow night - so I will bring up Liszt, which he plays quite a bit. Would be good to get Alexandre Dossin's views too. Any chance of hearing your playing?

I posted the current sketch for the Chopinesque piece on the site below:

Busoni said of this passage: anyone who is not moved by this has not yet come to Liszt! (approximately)

Now you people should hear a good recording of the opera, perhaps the Callas recording on EMI. Interestingly, the most famous moment in the opera, Casta diva, is not included in Liszt's paraphrase, but as Lewenthal points out, it occurs at a static moment of the opera so was of no use to Liszt.

(Sorry for tangling with another member yesterday. I have removed those posts.)

So I fought it for a long, but I've finally caught the lizst bug. I've been listening to him non stop this week. The Bm Sonata and the 2nd Ballade are simply mind blowing. Have any of you listened to Valentina Lisita's recording of the ballade? She uses a 97 key bosendorfe piano that is incredible. And she uses those extra low notes at a certain point. It just sounds so so good.

Hi Jason - I thought Busoni said that about the part where Liszt is imitating the timpani, you know - da da da DEE / da-da-da-da DA

You sure about that Ian? The 'timpani' imitation -and the Thalbergian three handed effects- has been commented on before, but I did not think that it was what Busoni went so crazy over.

But you do need to hear Bellini's original. His opera begins the same way as Liszt's paraphrase (after the opening flourishes) -such rich orchestration- and I was captivated.

Bellini, who passed on at 33, was an operatic genius who should be better known to piano aficionados. Chopin owed a lot to his example, and I well recall a performance of I Puritani several years ago. There was not one dull moment, his melodic inspiration could barely be contained, and I left the opera house in tears, took me a week to get over it.

"...anyone who has listened to or played the finale of Lucrezia, the middle section in B major in Norma or the slow movement in Sonnambula without being moved has not arrived at Liszt."

Both parts in question in are B major, but mine's a proper middle section so I'll be giving myself the laurel on this one, if there's no contention.

Very nice going, Ian, and thanks for digging up the Busoni quote. (Probably in library somewhere, though sometimes searching these things out can be quite time consuming!)

I suppose no disagreement after all, but isn't the Liszt musical quote I posted above much more boldly dramatic in its technical address? One is moved not only by that, but its very appearance on the printed page.

This brings to mind Elgar's magnificent 'Introduction and Allegro' for strings. At the climax at rehearsal 12, Elgar marks it nobilmente, but how would a casual listener, not to mention a sophisticated one, really understand what is happening, much less hear anything different? It is only when one follows the score that the experience takes on a whole new dimension. It is nobilmente, now we perceive it differently, and exactly what the composer intended.

And one thing else to point out about Liszt's Norma: the right hand scales at the 'Meno Allegro' (so ingenious) may very well have inspired Busoni, because at the climax of his transcription of the 'Ad nos', there they are. It is the same concept.

Seeing your Elgar and raising a Mahler (because who doesn't like a good dust-up), he was still more illustrative in his directions, z.B. in the scherzo to the 5th symphony, specifically asking for an implied rather than actual crescendo.

I agree the page you quoted is wonderfully dramatic for eye and ear. I think Schumann said about Thalberg in connection to the 3-hand effect that it sounded like the piano was giving birth to another piano.

Seeing your Elgar and raising a Mahler (because who doesn't like a good dust-up), he was still more illustrative in his directions, z.B. in the scherzo to the 5th symphony, specifically asking for an implied rather than actual crescendo.

Hola, Ian, it might even be suggested that following the score of a Mahler symphony gives one more insight into the music than listening to it in a concert venue. The Elgar symphonies are similar in this regard.

the really interesting Mahler scores to look at, for me, are the late period master-works: Das Lied von der Erde, the 1st. movement of the 9th., and the 1st. Movement of the 10th. For me, Das Lied is his only 'perfect work', there is no waste or excess on the canvas - the orchestration and finesse is actually exquisite (and it is certainly a great aesthetic relief from the 8th., which is rather overblown in every way). The 1st. movement of the 9th. is a rapturous work of 'lyrical polyphony', and, as well, a Teutonic drama. The 1st. Movement of the 10th. contains some of the most acrid harmonies in linear counterpoint ever written, whilst being totally lyrical and a perfect expose of Mahler's tortured feelings at the time. The opening Viola theme seems to be not just a script revealing Mahler's personal sense of utter desolation, dissolution, but is perhaps also a nod to the contemporaneous sway of atonality?

I always find that Elgar achieves something in music that is quite marvellous, in a quiet , quiet way - sublime subtlety. Also discovered a fantastic orchestral work by Frank Bridge the other day - there was a great school established in that little country, for a while.

Anyway, returning to Liszt - how about some discussion as to the more revolutionary harmonic and polyphonic constructions of his late works, and of his orchestral Tone Poems. I haven't done a lot of listening in either area, and would appreciate some seasoned thinking.

An awful lot to comment on here, thank-you for your kind post, but a dinner engagement is nigh.

Originally Posted By: Mark Nicol

The 1st. Movement of the 10th. contains some of the most acrid harmonies in linear counterpoint ever written, whilst being totally lyrical and a perfect expose of Mahler's tortured feelings at the time.

That climax in Ab minor has always frightened me, there is nothing in music quite like that, and I admit I don't have the stomach for it.

I've listened to it hundreds of times. Yes, there is so much dissonance, so much pain in that music that very few would actually be 'attracted to it'. I am one of the few, (but I suppose I've also written a piece 'over-burdened with dissonance and pain' - Ulysses, which you can hear on my youtube site marknicol7 )

What about the late Liszt works, and the orchestral Tone Poems? How about any ideas on great recordings, for a start.

I love some of the comments Yevgeny Sudbin makes in the notes of his new CD, Yevgeny Sudbin plays Liszt, Ravel & Saint-SaÃ«ns (BIS).

Discussing the 3 Sonetti del Petrarca:

"Il Canzoniere (Song Book)...is probably Petrarchâ€™s most notable work. In it, and over a time span of around 40 years, he finds ample opportunity for self-torture over his burning, unrequited passion for Laura, a woman he is said to have met only once, briefly. Yet as we read, we realize that Petrarchâ€™s internal struggle may not have been about Laura at all, but rather the eternal conflict between flesh and soul â€“ an unwinnable battle only too familiar to the womanizer Liszt (although for him lack of reciprocation was not an issue, with divorces being filed en masse whenever he appeared in town)."

(Reminds me of another famous poet's unrequited love; Catullus's hopeless love for Lesbia.)

And, on the addictive nature of playing Liszt:

"In my youth, I shied away from Liszt as I was afraid that I hadnâ€™t yet achieved the necessary humility and would join the long queue of young pianists contributing to a less than favourable image of the â€˜piano-smashingâ€™ Liszt. I was alwaysfascinated by the introverted and delicate Liszt, however. Itâ€™s not that I mind showmanship, as long as it doesnâ€™t detract from the original musical thought. (Yet it is more difficult to forgive when showmanship is not backed up by an adequate technique!) Nevertheless I try to stay away from Lisztâ€™s Greatest Virtuosic Hits because they leave me longing for more â€“ as with Pringles, â€˜once you pop, you canâ€™t stopâ€™".

_________________________
"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get â€” only what you are expecting to give â€” which is everything. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn

I will be buying this CD. I listened to Sudbin playing Gaspard de La Nuit on the tube. A level of fluid poetry and sensitivity that I have not hear before. A little limp, but marvelous. To me he is the real deal, like a Cziffra, or a Michelangeli - a genuine artist. His paraphrase on the Chopin Minute Waltz is very good, very artistic. Will be hanging to hear the Liszt.

Wasn't around during Liszt's birthday, but i'll add to the CELEBRATIONS OF LISZT AND CAPS LOCK.

Originally Posted By: Mark Nicol

What about the late Liszt works, and the orchestral Tone Poems? How about any ideas on great recordings, for a start.

Well, unfortunately most cycles of the tone poems are very uneven. A list of the best recordings would look something like (IMO) (I put a star next to the works that are, IMO, among Liszt's best orchestral works):

- Eine Symphonie zu Dante's Divina Commedia*: Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBITTCjsFY4) is great except he, unfortunately, underplays the great climax in the Magnificat, which almost ruins the work for me and leaves it somewhat inconclusive (a common criticism of the work, ever since Wagner supposedly talked Liszt out of depicting Paridoso). I think the other great one is Sinopoli/Staatskapelle Dresden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8huOjLi2YE), although this one might be difficult for first time listeners, with its chaotic cymbals in the first movement, and very slow Purgatorio movement. It's not perfect, but overall it gives a 'full' reading of the work - it's the only Magnificat i've found truly convincing to end the work - and the rest will probably grow on you, as it did on me.

Thanks for the replies to my question on current performers. It's actually the first time I've entered the thread and it gave me an opportunity to hear some non-standard Liszt. It hasn't yet grown on me though - maybe I'll try for a bit more.

I am going to print this list out, and listen to it all, bit by bit. Haitink, Karajan, Barenboim - I trust all of them. Jarvi is currently doing a great job on Shos. Did Horowitz play much Liszt? I was talking with Gil Sullivan the other day, and he said he has played on Horowitz's famous 'private Steinway'. Gil said it is no ordinary instrument, that it has a phenomenal capacity for colouring not normally found on your standard Steinways. Still, I'm not mad on Horowitz's interpretation of 'substance works', so technique and tone, even poetry and colour don"t count for everything.

Did Horowitz play much Liszt? I was talking with Gil Sullivan the other day, and he said he has played on Horowitz's famous 'private Steinway'. Gil said it is no ordinary instrument, that it has a phenomenal capacity for colouring not normally found on your standard Steinways. Still, I'm not mad on Horowitz's interpretation of 'substance works', so technique and tone, even poetry and colour don"t count for everything.

He played a fair bit of Liszt, but personally i've never cared for it very much. I think i'm in the minority here -and there are some exceptions- but some of his playing I find to be quite dreadful (see the first Mephisto Waltz). He also made some changes to Liszt's scores at times and most of the time I find them to show a misunderstanding of the music.

Did Horowitz play much Liszt? I was talking with Gil Sullivan the other day, and he said he has played on Horowitz's famous 'private Steinway'. Gil said it is no ordinary instrument, that it has a phenomenal capacity for colouring not normally found on your standard Steinways. Still, I'm not mad on Horowitz's interpretation of 'substance works', so technique and tone, even poetry and colour don"t count for everything.

He played a fair bit of Liszt, but personally i've never cared for it very much. I think i'm in the minority here -and there are some exceptions- but some of his playing I find to be quite dreadful (see the first Mephisto Waltz). He also made some changes to Liszt's scores at times and most of the time I find them to show a misunderstanding of the music.

Horowitz made a horrific recording of Liszt for RCA in the 70's which included the first Mephisto Waltz and the Bm Sonata. It was very sloppy and harsh sounding.

The best of his Liszt can be found on Phillips great pianist series, volume 48. I would ignore the rest.

He also made some changes to Liszt's scores at times and most of the time I find them to show a misunderstanding of the music.

Some changes? In the later RCA recordings, the music is almost completely re-written, IMO to no advantage, and making Liszt sound just plain vulgar. They are unlistenable for me.

A much earlier recording on RCA of the 6th Rhapsody is more successful, the moderate re-writing towards the end highly effective.

Earlier in his career, Arrau recorded several of the Rhapsodies. I don't know that they ever made it to CD (perhaps Damon will locate them on YT, I'm a bit pressed for time right now.) I do recall his 9th Rhapsody as an absolutely superb rendition, and methinks that's my favourite of all the Rhapsodies, though I do have a soft spot for 2, 4, 5 and 8.