I like Lionhead studios, but I've come to recognize quite plainly that Molyneux lets his ambition and desires get the best of him (and he's got incredibly loose lips) and nothing he says about a game till it's viewable in a demo is guaranteed to be in the end product. What about Will Wright though? Has anyone followed the development of Sims, Sims2 or Simcity4 before it was released? Or, followed it enough to know whether Wright is of the habit of mentioning 'hopeful inclusions' or if he only mentions 'concrete features'?

The reason I ask is because there has been a great deal of speculation (based on a lack of any information what-so-ever) about underwater features and flying creatures. If Will is good for his word then I think we can be assured that flying creatures are in and so are underwater civilizations, no matter how many previews, interviews or demos go by without seeing them.

I like Lionhead studios, but I've come to recognize quite plainly that Molyneux lets his ambition and desires get the best of him (and he's got incredibly loose lips) and nothing he says about a game till it's viewable in a demo is guaranteed to be in the end product. What about Will Wright though? Has anyone followed the development of Sims, Sims2 or Simcity4 before it was released? Or, followed it enough to know whether Wright is of the habit of mentioning 'hopeful inclusions' or if he only mentions 'concrete features'?

The reason I ask is because there has been a great deal of speculation (based on a lack of any information what-so-ever) about underwater features and flying creatures. If Will is good for his word then I think we can be assured that flying creatures are in and so are underwater civilizations, no matter how many previews, interviews or demos go by without seeing them.

While I didn't follow those games anywhere near as closely as this one, I do seem to remember WW including what he promised with only a few exceptions. Those were always explained and I believe most were added later too. No game can contain everything that you want to add into it, but he gives it a real good try.

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Check out my (Thurlin's) creatures, building, and vehicles. You won't be disappointed.

Yeah, I was worried about him pulling a "Black & White" with this, too.

But I don't think it's going to be possible for Will Wright NOT to disappoint fans with Spore. I mean, just like Black and White, the hype about this game has got the point where some people are just making up "features" out of wishful thinking. *cough*tool editor*cough*Even if he does deliver on every promise he's made, there'll still be people whining how x feature wasn't included, when it was never even supposed to be in the first place.

Not that Black and White was a good game by any means (only five levels?); I'm sure Spore will be a lot better than it, whatever happens.

Dude... Black and White was an awesome game! In fact, it was the total awesomeness of Black and White that in the end drove me to uninstall and virtually forget about Black and White 2.

Ugh.. Don't make me remember!!

I didn't enjoy having my creature instantly vaporised with lightning whenever it set foot inside a rival God's sphere of influence. I didn't enjoy having to cast Mega Blast over 100 times for my creature to finally get the hang of it, if he didn't decide to completely ignore what I was doing and just not learn. I didn't enjoy having worshippers eat all of the grain I left out for them instantaneously when my back was turned, only to starve by the time I'd put out more. I didn't enjoy waiting almost an hour of game time for a crop to grow in my farms. I didn't enjoy having my creature tediously "weight-lift" rocks for hours to put on muscle mass. I didn't enjoy how routine and boring it was to play a benevolent God, or how troublesome it was to play an evil God without killing off nearly the entirety of the villagers you were trying to convert by the time they had enough belief in you to turn over to your side. And I sure as hell didn't enjoy that there were only five levels, with the fourth one being the only one providing any kind of a challenge.

Even ignoring all the features that never made it in, it was an awful game.

Well, I have followed the development of Simcity 4 relatively closely and that of Simcity 3000 before that. Most of the early screenshots of both those games were nothing like what the eventual games looked like, but that's the case with many other games as well. From what I can see, we pretty much got all that was promised with both games and it's expansion packs. One point of worry is that, as soon as a new project is picked up, the websites are abandoned and left without updates.. I can understand it's only natural that after a while fansites take over from official sites, but somehow I hope that won't happen with Spore..

As for the flying creatures and underwater civilizations, they were all based off what we saw in the original video and a piece of concept art. Note that in the new videos, we can't see any flying creatures anywhere and there hasn't been any mention of underwater civilizations at E3.. Are they out? I don't think we'll know until Will Wright (or somebody else from Maxis) says 'yes' or 'no'..

Although, now that I think about it.. Didn't Will Wright say something about underwater civilizations during his interview with GamingSteve last year?

In any case, I trust Will Wright and Maxis much more than I do Peter Molyneus and Lionhead. When I read all the previews of Black and White 2 and saw the ads on the internet, I was completely in love with it. After I had bought it, played it for a while, realized there wasn't any skirmish mode or any way to skip the tutorial, I very quickly decided to get rid of it. It's currently gathering dust at the bottom shelf of one of my cabinets.. Where I keep all the games I no longer wish to be confronted with..

I like Lionhead studios, but I've come to recognize quite plainly that Molyneux lets his ambition and desires get the best of him (and he's got incredibly loose lips) and nothing he says about a game till it's viewable in a demo is guaranteed to be in the end product. What about Will Wright though? Has anyone followed the development of Sims, Sims2 or Simcity4 before it was released? Or, followed it enough to know whether Wright is of the habit of mentioning 'hopeful inclusions' or if he only mentions 'concrete features'?

The reason I ask is because there has been a great deal of speculation (based on a lack of any information what-so-ever) about underwater features and flying creatures. If Will is good for his word then I think we can be assured that flying creatures are in and so are underwater civilizations, no matter how many previews, interviews or demos go by without seeing them.

I have been a fan of WW games since Sim City. I have found so far that the things he says are going to be in the game usually are. Mostly because he doesn't tell people what he is actually thinking about putting in the game until only after he knows will work. Which in turn is probably why we have so little info about Spore, since a lot of stuff isn't 100% yet and he doesn't want to disappoint the fans.

At the outset of this post I should probably remind you that Will was not too much involved with The Sims 2, as he was already planning Spore at that time.

One promised feature was not included in Sims 2: Weather.

I remember an E3 video in which Maxis showed a scene where it started to rain and to storm when some sims were sitting outside in a pool. While most of them were quick to get inside, one remained in the pool and was struck by lightning. He was lucky as only a sim can be though and lived it, the others then came out again to look after him.

What we didn't see in the video was that at that time it was raining inside the house, too. I don't remember Maxis talking about the problem at that time, but I might be wrong there. They hoped to fix it, but they failed and had to admit that the weather was out short before the release. Some fans got really angry about it.

I suppose that at the time they showed the scene there might have been some other things not working perfectly either, though. (Without really having an idea) I suppose that in general they might be able to predict that about x percent of what they're planning won't work out, but the problem probably is to predict which x percent that might be...

I think its best not to be pessimistic about everything we haven't yet witnessed, but not to take every tiny detail as granted either. There can always be deductions, but those won't make the entire concept fail.

I like Lionhead studios, but I've come to recognize quite plainly that Molyneux lets his ambition and desires get the best of him (and he's got incredibly loose lips) and nothing he says about a game till it's viewable in a demo is guaranteed to be in the end product. What about Will Wright though? Has anyone followed the development of Sims, Sims2 or Simcity4 before it was released? Or, followed it enough to know whether Wright is of the habit of mentioning 'hopeful inclusions' or if he only mentions 'concrete features'?

The reason I ask is because there has been a great deal of speculation (based on a lack of any information what-so-ever) about underwater features and flying creatures. If Will is good for his word then I think we can be assured that flying creatures are in and so are underwater civilizations, no matter how many previews, interviews or demos go by without seeing them.

I followed all three, and Black and White and Black and White 2 very very closely. As far as I remember the only thing left out was WEather what was mentioned. The much larger problem is community. Idle speculation or over analysis of screenshots causes most of Will Wright's problems.

The Sims 2 was full of it. I remember there was a concept art picture that showed a woman holding food and a telephone at the same time. Regardless with the fact this was concept art it was quickly accepted by many to be a game feature. Although it was never announced by Will Wright or anyone else. In the end they never had the ability to do that, people were angry, but it was simply their own fault.

Another cause, like I said is idle speculation. It was announced in the Sims 2 that you could have twins. It was then wildly assumed by many members of the communty (at least at the board I went to) that the ability to have twins = the ability to have triplets or quadruplets. No one at EA announced this, it just became an accepted feature/

And while Mr. Molyneaux does indeed run at the mouth, one cannot blame him for everything. Some examples from B&W1 are.. A screenshot of a red, evil landscape. This led people to assume the more evil you became, the landscape in your area of control would reflect that. In reality the red landscape in that picture was from a single mission where the entire island was evil and red. Your alignment did not change the landscape at all.

Another example is when it was announced that snow would accumulate. Now I believe this feature was in it. But the fans took that simple statement much farther. If snow could accumulate then you could collect it and roll it up to make a snowball. If you were playing multiplayer and got bored you could have a snowball fight, or build a snowman. Obviously you can do neither but it's another example of imaginations of fans going into overdrive.

This is the main reason I avoid this board, there are too many wild theories and uncomfirmed things most people simply accept as being true. I'm going to avoid getting caught up in it as best I can. However I do pop my head in hear to try and get others to realize what they may be doing.

Dont trash BnW. Its a good series. 1 was to ambiguous and experimental, while two lost the games mystery and realness. There will be 3 more in the series so I would think that three will hit it right on the nail. And yes molyneux does hype things up a bit

[Some examples from B&W1 are.. A screenshot of a red, evil landscape. This led people to assume the more evil you became, the landscape in your area of control would reflect that. In reality the red landscape in that picture was from a single mission where the entire island was evil and red. Your alignment did not change the landscape at all.

Actually, one of the things that stunned me... intensely, about BW2 was the atmospheric changes via the sounds of your cities when you shift alignments. Especially evil. I have a pretty hard soul when it comes to horror, violence simulations, etc. but listening to my city when I was evil made me work very very hard to get good again. (I think it was the terrible combination of babies crying and dogs barking and growling... very unsettling). The game gained much in the sequel to be sure... but all the things I loved about the predecessor seemed either lacking or glossed over. In short it just didn't feel godly.

Yeah, Will Wright is usually quite reliable in announced features. I think he usually doesn't mention a feature until he's pretty sure it can be included. There may be a couple things slipping out of Spore, but I doubt it'll be anything that major. But, like others have said, put your excitement on *announced* features, and not just things taken from screenshot analysis. I've rarely seen such features in any game I've followed.

Lol anyways, i figure we shouldnt put our expectations too high, as this is a very experimental game. Dont get me wrong, i love the creature editor, and all the other ones too. I just happen to know that if you want something so bad it might dissapoint you. To will wright, he usually puts in all the things he announces. Why would there be a problem with underwater cities? Like its not so different than onland cities.

I dont think Will Wright has ever made a half assed game. All the games his name has been behind I have loved(SimCity, SimEarth, SimAnt, The Sims, all those minor games, blah blah blah). He does a great job at making great games. Some don't turn out so great, The Sims Online, but I don't think it was for lack of effort or desire. I think the fact that he demoed Spore so much at E3 shows that he dedicated to what he is doing and I imagine will try to make Spore an insanely awesome game.

I dont think Will Wright has ever made a half assed game. All the games his name has been behind I have loved(SimCity, SimEarth, SimAnt, The Sims, all those minor games, blah blah blah). He does a great job at making great games. Some don't turn out so great, The Sims Online, but I don't think it was for lack of effort or desire. I think the fact that he demoed Spore so much at E3 shows that he dedicated to what he is doing and I imagine will try to make Spore an insanely awesome game.

But he is human like anyone else, and Maxis games do contain bugs, some really bad ones. (for example I lost over half the houses in The Sims 2 in one of my neighborhoods only to have them release a patch for it two weeks later :\) If they are getting this much time lets hope we don't have any bugs that are that serious.

Oh, spore is going to have bugs. Huge freaking bugs the size of poodles.There is no way in hell Will will know all the stupid crap we are going to try so there is no way he can truely foolproof Spore until after we make those mistakes.

Will Wright craps in the woods? With all that cash you'd think he could at least afford an outhouse

And I of course expect bugs but my question (which has been answered quite well) was about the features that we're told will be in. And the reason for the question is that we have actually been told that you can keep a creature underwater, and bring it to sapentience underwater. And I THINK that we've been told there are flying creatures as well.

Will Wright craps in the woods? With all that cash you'd think he could at least afford an outhouse

And I of course expect bugs but my question (which has been answered quite well) was about the features that we're told will be in. And the reason for the question is that we have actually been told that you can keep a creature underwater, and bring it to sapentience underwater. And I THINK that we've been told there are flying creatures as well.

Yes, and we shouldn't buy the game unless those things make it in the game.

Oh, spore is going to have bugs. Huge freaking bugs the size of poodles.There is no way in hell Will will know all the stupid crap we are going to try so there is no way he can truely foolproof Spore until after we make those mistakes.

Thats excatly why releasing a creature editor would be a good idea. A few months or so before release would be enough time for the community to find any bugs so they can be ironed out.