I'm sorry, dude. I can tame and train an aggressive dog and I can educate a horribly spoiled child, both without corporal punishment and in the end I can provide a happier and more balanced "student". However, in both cases, I need full support from the owners and my own set of rules enforced by everybody at all times. Otherwise I honestly believe it cannot be done. You obviously don't have it in that house.

Implying that they are bad parents (and they are) will only hurt their feelings and accomplish nothing else. You will be rejected, criticized and avoided by that family and their child will keep being a spoiled manipulator. You will only hurt them and hurt yourself.
Avoid the child at all times and only apply corrections to set your own boundaries. If your uncle and aunt think even that is too much, you're better off avoiding them too when that's possible, at least until their child is "old enough" for proper education (if that ever happens and it's not already too little too late)

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

(29-12-2011 07:55 AM)Malleus Wrote: Implying that they are bad parents (and they are) will only hurt their feelings and accomplish nothing else. You will be rejected, criticized and avoided by that family and their child will keep being a spoiled manipulator. You will only hurt them and hurt yourself.
Avoid the child at all times and only apply corrections to set your own boundaries. If your uncle and aunt think even that is too much, you're better off avoiding them too when that's possible, at least until their child is "old enough" for proper education (if that ever happens and it's not already too little too late)

We've been told they're intelligent, at least in other things than raising kids. Recognizing that they have limitations / don't know how to handle the situation isn't saying they're bad parents. Anyway, why do people not want to be called bad parents if they actually are? If I'm a bad guy and everyone around is scared to tell me that raping small bunny rabbits is bad, 'cos they'll hurt my feelings, how will I ever stop? Those bunnies are so attractive Anyway if he's gonna wind up avoiding them anyway, why not tell it like it is first and see if he can save them all a lot of angst.

True friends are those who can tell you stuff you don't necessarily want to hear. Just don't be a dick about doing the telling and it should be fine.

My niece is still too young to display any bad habits so far, but if my sister ends up spoiling her rotten and turning her into a horrible kid, I will never tell her that she is a bad mom because she would rip my head off with her teeth. She would *never* forget that I said that and my relationship with her would never be the same, no matter what happens in the future.

And in 10 years when she would become uncontrollable, my sister would still not remember me fondly for showing concerns early on and even then she would still not want to hear that it's all her fault. In fact she would be more interested in "what do I do now?". But if I told her back then that she has no idea how to raise a child, she would never come to me for advice because 10 years later she would still be angry even if I tried to make peace in the mean time.

If I stay away for a while when there's not much I can do and bring some good pointers when things start to look really bad and she's actually looking for help, who knows, she might even listen.

You can't fix people when they don't know and won't believe that they have a problem.

P.S. My sister is actually a good mother, I approve her education methods and I strongly doubt that my niece will turn out nasty.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

Ok I think, time to come out of the closet
I am child care assitant, and I have worked as that (not anymore though).
In the creche, in preschool, day care centers, after school care....

First I will tell you why I am not working in that field anymore, then I will say something about exactly this case.

I am not working there anymore because Monday - Friday the kids see more off you then off their home, they soak in all the education you provide, they are happy, they do what they are told, rarely acting up.
On Monday, after the weekend, most kids come back completely unbalanced. Noisy, unhappy, tired, hyper active.
You have your parent evenings, where you talk about things, give hints for education, hand out additional information, you have the appointments with parents where you can point out everything good and bad.
Parents do not want to hear the bad things because it automatically falls back on to them > "i am a bad parent".
They rather keep the illusion that they are doing a marvelous job.
And this is so annoying and frustrating that I actually quit this profession.

Now about this exact case.
Of course at your own risk and dependin on the kind of relationship you have with those people.
First of all, as stupid as it sounds, watch a few episodes SuperNanny with those parents, so they get an eye for what is nasty behavious and how to encounter it. SuperNanny actually does a good job and has great tips and tricks.
Also get those people to understand that it is NEVER too early to teach a kid boundaries and rules, they need them!
Show them what the consequences will be when the girl grows up > Not doing what she is told, never calling when coming late, loud music and parties in her room, messy place, she will treat her parents like servants, she will have no idea how to care for her toys/computer/homework/room/anything because it is all done by the parents....
Ask them if they want that to happen.

Now there is no need to physically hurt a child to teach it some lessons. I never had to do that and the kids would listen to me just fine. If I can tame 25 kids at a time, they should be able to tame one, their own girl. (And yes I had hard cases too)

Just a few examples:throwing her food on the floor > give her something to clean it up even if she does it badly or slow or starts crying, she has to do it. And she can't get more food.denying real food but only eating junk > No snacks at all and if she doesn't eat what she gets she can't have anything else. Even if she starts crying. She won't die from having no lunch once.not cleaning her room > warn if you don't clean your room this shows me that you don't like your toys, we will put them away. If she doesn't clean up, take a box and put all the toys on the floor in it and take the box where she can't reach it. She can earn back one at a time by cleaning up after herself.making a lot of noise > unplug the damn thing, close it, lock it, don't let her in that room. if it is too late, warn once, no reaction > take away a privilege > IPAD,TV,console games, favourite teddy,..... She can earn them back by listening.

She is only 4 but she already knows perfectly well what buttons to push to get what she wants.
(why does she have an IPAD??? pretty expensive toy for a 4 year old)

Anyway first step is to make the parents understand that they really do have a huge problem here.

I used to have a blog about all these things but just yesterday I deleted it. I still have the files, if you want some that fit, I can send them. In that case pm me.

Yes -everything Leela posted, and since she said it, I'm going to emphasis it: parents must work continually to set guide lines and keep upping the stakes. As the kid grows and learns how far she can get away with certain behaviors, she will keep testing her parents' limits and will need more consequences.

BlahBlokesBraBroke, it could be easy for you to walk away from the situation, but you clearly care about your Aunt & Uncle, and care about how this little girl grows up. Take the parents aside and let them know you are concerned for the welfare of the family relationships and the little girl's future. Tell them that you recognize her bad behavior only happens around them, so they may not be able to detect it -they might think it's her usual behavior. It is often difficult to see the entire forest, when one is standing in the trees. All you can really do is let them know of your concern at what you have observed, and leave the choice for change up to them.
________ iPad? Shit - I don't own an iPad!
I'll clean my room, wash the dishes, I'll even fetch the mail and do the grocery shopping for an iPad! Do your Aunt & Uncle have room for one more kid?

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein

(29-12-2011 07:55 AM)Malleus Wrote: I'm sorry, dude. I can tame and train an aggressive dog and I can educate a horribly spoiled child, both without corporal punishment and in the end I can provide a happier and more balanced "student".

My wife is a dog trainer and has saved more than one aggressive dog from the abyss (I know 'cause the fuckers bit me and I was ready to put them down with my bare hands). Since the brutes are still alive and living with me, apparently she's also an effective husband trainer. I was gonna suggest giving a copy of The Prince by Machiavelli to the parents with the inscription "Don't let this happen to you" but then I got worried that the precocious 4 yo might get her hands on it.