An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

If you look at brain scans of people that are demonically 'possessed', it sure does look like devil-horns.. [1]

Funny how we can't get past the dark ages.. Do we actually live in 2000 AD, or is this still 30 AC? I can't tell!![2]

[1] This is a joke..[2] This is also a joke.. Only seriously, can we get out of the freaking dark ages already? Aren't we in an age of vast technology and knowledge?

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"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger.""If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me. Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Ya Pony, I really, really miss Ray as well He & I would occasionally PM in the background - he had quite a way with words which always reminded me of Chris Hitchens (I told him that once, he laughed and laughed...)

Among others, Ray's posts and side chats really helped me to get closer to speaking my mind, to let loose on the idiocy when deserved (which, in my view, it frequently is).

It's my great loss that I never got a chance to meet or talk to Ray in person.

According to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, "In Chaldean mythology the seven evil deities were known as shedu, storm-demons, represented in ox-like form." [14] They were represented as winged bulls, derived from the colossal bulls used as protective jinns of royal palaces.[15]

From Chaldea, the term shedu traveled to the Israelites. The writers of the Tanach applied the word as a dialogism to Canaanite deities.

There are indications that demons in popular Hebrew mythology were believed to come from the nether world.[16] Various diseases and ailments were ascribed to them, particularly those affecting the brain and those of internal nature. Examples include the catalepsy, headache, epilepsy, and nightmares. There also existed a demon of blindness, "Shabriri" (lit. "dazzling glare") who rested on uncovered water at night and blinded those who drank from it.

Demons supposedly entered the body and caused the disease while overwhelming or "seizing" the victim. To cure such diseases, it was necessary to draw out the evil demons by certain incantations and talismanic performances, which the Essenes excelled at. Josephus, who spoke of demons as "spirits of the wicked which enter into men that are alive and kill them", but which could be driven out by a certain root,[17] witnessed such a performance in the presence of the Emperor Vespasian[18] and ascribed its origin to King Solomon. - Wikipedia

It's amazing to me that people who believe in Demons don't go and look up what their origin is.Demons are simply the earliest form of disease theory. Some (like Josephus) actually believed they were the souls of the dead come to haunt or kill the leaving.

Then we discovered the germ theory of disease.Suddenly POOF no more demons.

- case closed

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Cheers!-Argyle

Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts

You know what bugs me with claims like these? How people just don't manage to get a photograph or record these things? Yes, I just did a quick look on YouTube and all I saw was people who might be just having a fit in which case medical help is best needed NOT an exorcism. And videos that weren't very clear and videos that clearly could be hoaxed, Anything that is photoshopped or faked in a some way can usually be debunked if people give it enough scrutiny. For example, the claim in this thread, the black eyes - having that documented would cause people to try and find a rational answer as to why that occurred. As far as I am aware there are no conditions that would cause it. Obviously, I'd remain sceptical, but at least it's evidence for people to explore and to try and better understand. Of course, there's other things that could be caught on film:

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Sometimes they are translucent, others are black wisps.

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the man spoke in different voices.

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The family would report to us that kitchen drawers would be open and even knives being thrown at members of the family. They all reported seeing dark wispy figures in their rooms and sounds such as foot steps, voices, and thumps.

Also...

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Three hours later he had peace.

In these three hours it seems it did not occur to anybody that it'd be a good idea to pick up a camera? With the 'moving' of objects, it's possible to fake and to do it convincingly well. I'm sorry, but if you've got a guy possessed by a demon for 3 hours, there's evidence you can gather. The rest could be photoshopped or rendered in a CGI program, but normally they can be scrutinised well enough to determine whether they're fake or not. It might not be substantial enough to be proof, but at least you'd have it documented. But this forum is full of sceptics, if an extraordinary claim is going to be made it'll need extraordinary evidence. If there were pics or a video, then we'd either have to call it fake or we'd find it harder to debunk.

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“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto MusashiWarning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

when we arrived it was reported he only had a few beers/ 3/4 4 hours before.

You've gone from the man being D.R.U.N.K. when it suits you - but when its pointed out that someone drunk could easily hallucinate, all of us sudden its just "a few beers some time ago", so that you can claim that alchol was definitely NOT a factor.

If you can't keep your story straight, and you feel the need to embellish to get our attention, why on earth should we believe things happened the way you said?

I find THIS the most interesting of all. Its "one night" - so let's say after 8pm, likely later. A guy in the house suddenly goes into one, going absolutely manic, to the extent he has to be forcibly restrained.

Do the others in the house call the cops? The paramedics? No......they call the local pastor.

Which is NOT the first reaction of your average Schmoe. Its the first reaction of a group of people who already have a really strong belief in god and demons and other assorted woo, otherwise the first call would be to the emergency services.

And also, guys and gals, these guys were able - late at night - to get in touch with "the exorcist team" who arrived and dealt with everything in just a couple hours! How lucky the pastor was in! Indeed, how lucky that they had the right number already available......

You don't put an exorcists number on speed-dial on the off-chance. You only do that if you already buy-in the to whole load of woo. So this wasn't a random house, this was a house known for being "spooky", inhabited by a group who already really believed in demons and woo, to the extent that their first action was to call the local woo-doctor whose number they had to hand....perhaps because they were regulars in his church of woo.

Demons? Don't make me laugh. Mass hysteria and a suggestable bunch of folk already pre-programmed to accept a particular "explanation".

How lucky the pastor was in! Indeed, how lucky that they had the right number already available......

Not just that, but do you know how hard it is to find a pastor who buys into that malarkey? Most clergypeople I've met would have said "he's drunk, don't bother me" or "take him to the hospital, don't bother me" or "I don't really do exorcisms, don't bother me". People who believe in exorcism believe it is a special ritual that requires special training. They think if you try to do an exorcism and do it wrong, the consequences can be terrible.

Exorcism/Deliverance is a serious field of expertise. It is truly "Big-League." Since it brings the exorcist into direct contact with demonic forces, a non-Christian performing exorcisms leaves himself open to demonic attacks and even demonic possession ...

The Christian exorcist also needs to be trained. The wiles of the Devil are many. He is very intelligent. The Christian exorcist needs to know the tactics and tricks that demons often use during exorcism efforts.

A formal exorcism can only be performed by a Priest under instruction of their Bishop. Laity should never, ever, attempt to perform an exorcism. You will not only fail but you will be putting yourself and everyone in the room in grave danger.

Hecky yeah. This guy is possessed for three hours? There are knives flying all over the place? Why isn't there a live feed from the local news? How come the people witnessing this don't document the happenings on their phones, cameras, computers, what have you, from different angles? Why don't these demon-haunted folks call the cops, the paramedics and the local news outlets? Why is this not on the front page of every newspaper and news website in the world?

Any professional-- reporter, scientist, doctor, law enforcement person-- would give their right arm to be the first person in human history to provide real documentation of a supernatural being. Yet these believers say that the "authorities want to cover this up". Why would anyone want to keep this a secret if it is really happening? I guess to protect Satan. Since Satan can't look out for himself.

Hecky yeah. This guy is possessed for three hours? There are knives flying all over the place? Why isn't there a live feed from the local news? How come the people witnessing this don't document the happenings on their phones, cameras, computers, what have you, from different angles? Why don't these demon-haunted folks call the cops, the paramedics and the local news outlets? Why is this not on the front page of every newspaper and news website in the world?

Any professional-- reporter, scientist, doctor, law enforcement person-- would give their right arm to be the first person in human history to provide real documentation of a supernatural being. Yet these believers say that the "authorities want to cover this up". Why would anyone want to keep this a secret if it is really happening? I guess to protect Satan. Since Satan can't look out for himself.

I agree. It just confuses me that they, religious nuts, would defend their belief when asked for proof. The idea that "the authorities will want to cover it up" is idiotic. As you said, why would they want to cover it up if it's already happening? Also, if that is the best the devil can do, i'm not impressed!

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Me:What are you looking at Eminem?Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Confirmed. UFOs, demonic possession are correlated in a certain light...

Merely superstitions. If we have been visited by aliens, it would be miraculous that they found us in such a short amount of time, especially since travelling really fast makes you travel forward in time - it's like they would have had to suspect that life may exist here - before the age of the dinosaurs, and oops - it does, so let's turn back to our own planet, only now we're about 100,000 years into the future at our home planet or something. That would be a huge wasted effort. I am siding with a body of thought that blasting our presence out to the universe is probably not a good idea, if we can imagine that an alien life able to reach us in a certain amount of time must be vastly more advanced in technology than we could imagine today.. but, there's a sci-fi movie for that.

The idea of demonic possession was already addressed above.. In essence, all superstitions, based on fear of something or the threat of something..

« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 10:16:18 PM by jeremy0 »

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"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger.""If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me. Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

May I ask you your personal opinion on the Salem witches? Were there demons possessing these little girls, thus justifying the execution of so many citizens who were harnessing the demons? Or were these girls suffering from some sort of group psychosis?

What is your interpretation of the events?

I was not there nor were you therefore none of us have first hand knowledge as such I can not commit on the events.

If you are asking did people did without reason, one must honestly conclude that the evil hearts of man have killed people throughtout time whether it be under religious zealots and under greedy none religious people.

I am asking opinion and belief of individual (thank you for the correction). You are asking for proof. You quesitons are not valid for this forum. I personally believe in demons, I have seen them, I have experience interactions with them and wonder if any one else has.

Asking for proof is not valid on a forum devoted to skepticism. Why thank you for coming out of credulousity land and deigning to inform us that we are doing the incorrect thing on our own forum.

The problem is you don't want proof. You do not have open minds. All of you instantly go to defense mood and to prove you small worlds are the most important. very sad.

The problem is you don't want proof. You do not have open minds. All of you instantly go to defense mood and to prove you small worlds are the most important. very sad.

wow, nice lie there Natan. You know, bearing false witness like your supposed god says not to do? You have not provided any evidence. If you had any, and not anedotes where there is nothing at all supporting such nonsense, I would be more than happy to consider it. The world would be much more interested if there were demons, so I would welcome it. But you have failed. And have to resort to a lie to excuse yourself.

Ooh, the 13 demon kings. So you know this hmmmm? Sounds like someone's been cribbing from the Deities and Demigods book.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

You know what bugs me with claims like these? How people just don't manage to get a photograph or record these things? Yes, I just did a quick look on YouTube and all I saw was people who might be just having a fit in which case medical help is best needed NOT an exorcism. And videos that weren't very clear and videos that clearly could be hoaxed, Anything that is photoshopped or faked in a some way can usually be debunked if people give it enough scrutiny. For example, the claim in this thread, the black eyes - having that documented would cause people to try and find a rational answer as to why that occurred. As far as I am aware there are no conditions that would cause it. Obviously, I'd remain sceptical, but at least it's evidence for people to explore and to try and better understand. Of course, there's other things that could be caught on film:

There are plenty of exorcisms on Youtube. Yes some are real and others are not. No matter the proof you will not believe what you see unless you experience it yourself. That is the fact and no one can refute your skepticism has blinded your ability to see things in a different light. It has to be a personal experience which you refuse to have. Even people on this forum, if you were to experience it, would like the time of Jesus not accept Him. So ultimately you and I are wasting our time debating something you refuse to accept as truth and I refuse to let go of the truth. Lord I pray for the hardened hearts and ask you to let them see truth. Bind the things not of you and release them long enough to make the choice of truth.

I love that science can continually be wrong with evidence, but it is accepted as truth.