I would not want to experience the second death.... I know that for sure.

I agree with you on that point.

Logged

The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

I would not want to experience the second death.... I know that for sure.

What is the second death ? Will God destroy the soul ?.

No, it is something too horrible to imagine:

Revelation 21 King James Version (KJV

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I would not want to experience the second death.... I know that for sure.

What is the second death ? Will God destroy the soul ?.

Yes. And he will start with religious people after he torments them in ways they could never imagine something like that is possible.

What is this supposed to mean?

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

"The road to Hell is paved with the bones of priests and monks, and the skulls of bishops are the lamp posts that light the path." - or -

“The road to hell is paved with the skulls of erring priests, with bishops as their signposts.”St. John Chrysostom attributed.1

"I do not think there are many among Bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish: and the reason is, that it is an affair that requires a great mind."St. John Chrysostom, Extract from St. John Chrysostom, Homily III on Acts 1:12.2

“The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”St. Athanasius, Council of Nicaea, AD 325 attributed.3

“The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”Saint John Eudes, attributed.4

"Augustine says in his Rule: ‘Show mercy not only to yourselves, but also to him who, being in the higher position among you, is therefore in greater danger.’ But fraternal correction is a work of mercy. Therefore even prelates ought to be corrected.”St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II, II, q. 33, a. 4, Sed Contra.

Christians, as Christians, are not committed to any philosophical doctrine of immortality. But they are committed to the belief in the General Resurrection. Man is a creature. His very existence is the grant of God. His very existence is contingent. He exists by the grace of God. But God created Man for existence, i.e., for an eternal destiny. This destiny can be achieved and consummated only in communion with God.

I just happened to be reading this from St. Isaac the Syrian yesterday...

"As for me I say that those who are tormented in Gehenna are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in Gehenna are deprived of God’s love." -St. Isaac the Syrian, Ascetical Homilies 48

"Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful." -St. Isaac the Syrian, Ascetical Homilies 48

"That is what the torment of Gehenna is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability." -St. Isaac the Syrian, Ascetical Homilies 48

"That we should think that Gehenna is not also full of love and mingled with compassion would be an insult to our God. By saying He will deliver us to suffering without purpose, we most surely sin." Isaac the Syrian, Ascetical Homilies 51

Christians, as Christians, are not committed to any philosophical doctrine of immortality. But they are committed to the belief in the General Resurrection. Man is a creature. His very existence is the grant of God. His very existence is contingent. He exists by the grace of God. But God created Man for existence, i.e., for an eternal destiny. This destiny can be achieved and consummated only in communion with God.

Saying that the soul is not inherently immortal (and I still fail to see, re. our last discussion on the subject, how it's a theologoumenon to believe this - only God is inherently immortal. All creation exists only contingently upon Him, so any immortality of the soul must likewise be contingent upon Him) does not in any way support the position of the Jehovah's Witnesses, which we do not share. We do not believe as they do. Ansgar was quite right in what he said. We believe that God will continue to sustain us after death - that doesn't mean that our souls are inherently immortal but it does mean that we do not believe God will destroy them.

James

Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

I just happened to be reading this from St. Isaac the Syrian yesterday...

"As for me I say that those who are tormented in Gehenna are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in Gehenna are deprived of God’s love." -St. Isaac the Syrian, Ascetical Homilies 48

"Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful." -St. Isaac the Syrian, Ascetical Homilies 48

"That is what the torment of Gehenna is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability." -St. Isaac the Syrian, Ascetical Homilies 48

"That we should think that Gehenna is not also full of love and mingled with compassion would be an insult to our God. By saying He will deliver us to suffering without purpose, we most surely sin." Isaac the Syrian, Ascetical Homilies 51

How do you explain than "the darkness outside" "the weeping and gnashing of teeth" "being trowed into prison until you have payed the last penny" "the worm that never dies and the fire that is never quenched" "the everlasting punishment" ? Is Gehenna and Heaven in their ultimate conditions right now? If not how is that compatible with the quotes that you provided? What happens after death?

Hebrews 9:27 "It is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgement."

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Christians, as Christians, are not committed to any philosophical doctrine of immortality. But they are committed to the belief in the General Resurrection. Man is a creature. His very existence is the grant of God. His very existence is contingent. He exists by the grace of God. But God created Man for existence, i.e., for an eternal destiny. This destiny can be achieved and consummated only in communion with God.

Saying that the soul is not inherently immortal (and I still fail to see, re. our last discussion on the subject, how it's a theologoumenon to believe this - only God is inherently immortal. All creation exists only contingently upon Him, so any immortality of the soul must likewise be contingent upon Him) does not in any way support the position of the Jehovah's Witnesses, which we do not share. We do not believe as they do. Ansgar was quite right in what he said. We believe that God will continue to sustain us after death - that doesn't mean that our souls are inherently immortal but it does mean that we do not believe God will destroy them.

James

I am not contending that we believe as the Jehovah's Witnesses. So I am not really disagreeing with Asgar.

But if the soul is not inherently immortal and needs communion with God to be sustained, then it should follow that those who reject this communion--the food of immortality--may also be rejecting the immortality of their souls.

Hebrews 9:27 "It is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgement."

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

"The second death" does in no way imply a transmigration of the soul from one body to another (which is non-sense in Christianity). It would come after the Judgement, as it's unfortunate verdict for some.

The Christian doctrine is: one soul - one body from birth to eternity.

It's more like the soul is the inner man and the body his exterior aspect. Each body is the unique material expression of one soul - it's not at all accidental to the person (person in fact means "face"). You recognize people (even Saints or the departed) by looking at their faces.

By the way, the verse you've posted is never interpreted literally in the Orthodox Church - its literal interpretation gave rise to the heresy known as chiliasm or millennialism.

12 Do not invite death by the error of your life,or bring on destruction by the works of your hands;13 because God did not make death,and he does not delight in the death of the living.14 For he created all things so that they might exist;the generative forces of the world are wholesome,and there is no destructive poison in them,and the dominion of Hades is not on earth.15 For righteousness is immortal.

16 But the ungodly by their words and deeds summoned death;considering him a friend, they pined awayand made a covenant with him,because they are fit to belong to his company.

2 They reasoned unsoundly, saying to themselves,‘Short and sorrowful is our life,and there is no remedy when a life comes to its end,and no one has been known to return from Hades.2 For we were born by mere chance,and hereafter we shall be as though we had never been,for the breath in our nostrils is smoke,and reason is a spark kindled by the beating of our hearts;3 when it is extinguished, the body will turn to ashes,and the spirit will dissolve like empty air.4 Our name will be forgotten in time,and no one will remember our works;our life will pass away like the traces of a cloud,and be scattered like mistthat is chased by the rays of the sunand overcome by its heat.5 For our allotted time is the passing of a shadow,and there is no return from our death,because it is sealed up and no one turns back.

6 ‘Come, therefore, let us enjoy the good things that exist,and make use of the creation to the full as in youth.7 Let us take our fill of costly wine and perfumes,and let no flower of spring pass us by.8 Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds before they wither.9 Let none of us fail to share in our revelry;everywhere let us leave signs of enjoyment,because this is our portion, and this our lot.10 Let us oppress the righteous poor man;let us not spare the widowor regard the grey hairs of the aged.11 But let our might be our law of right,for what is weak proves itself to be useless.

12 ‘Let us lie in wait for the righteous man,because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions;he reproaches us for sins against the law,and accuses us of sins against our training.13 He professes to have knowledge of God,and calls himself a child of the Lord.14 He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;15 the very sight of him is a burden to us,because his manner of life is unlike that of others,and his ways are strange.16 We are considered by him as something base,and he avoids our ways as unclean;he calls the last end of the righteous happy,and boasts that God is his father.17 Let us see if his words are true,and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;18 for if the righteous man is God’s child, he will help him,and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.19 Let us test him with insult and torture,so that we may find out how gentle he is,and make trial of his forbearance.20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death,for, according to what he says, he will be protected.’

21 Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray,for their wickedness blinded them,22 and they did not know the secret purposes of God,nor hoped for the wages of holiness,nor discerned the prize for blameless souls;23 for God created us for incorruption,and made us in the image of his own eternity,24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world,and those who belong to his company experience it.

3 But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God,and no torment will ever touch them.2 In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died,and their departure was thought to be a disaster,3 and their going from us to be their destruction;but they are at peace.4 For though in the sight of others they were punished,their hope is full of immortality.5 Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good,because God tested them and found them worthy of himself;6 like gold in the furnace he tried them,and like a sacrificial burnt-offering he accepted them.7 In the time of their visitation they will shine forth,and will run like sparks through the stubble.8 They will govern nations and rule over peoples,and the Lord will reign over them for ever.9 Those who trust in him will understand truth,and the faithful will abide with him in love,because grace and mercy are upon his holy ones,and he watches over his elect.

10 But the ungodly will be punished as their reasoning deserves,those who disregarded the righteousand rebelled against the Lord;11 for those who despise wisdom and instruction are miserable.Their hope is vain, their labours are unprofitable,and their works are useless.12 Their wives are foolish, and their children evil;13 their offspring are accursed.

Christians, as Christians, are not committed to any philosophical doctrine of immortality. But they are committed to the belief in the General Resurrection. Man is a creature. His very existence is the grant of God. His very existence is contingent. He exists by the grace of God. But God created Man for existence, i.e., for an eternal destiny. This destiny can be achieved and consummated only in communion with God.

Saying that the soul is not inherently immortal (and I still fail to see, re. our last discussion on the subject, how it's a theologoumenon to believe this - only God is inherently immortal. All creation exists only contingently upon Him, so any immortality of the soul must likewise be contingent upon Him) does not in any way support the position of the Jehovah's Witnesses, which we do not share. We do not believe as they do. Ansgar was quite right in what he said. We believe that God will continue to sustain us after death - that doesn't mean that our souls are inherently immortal but it does mean that we do not believe God will destroy them.

James

I am not contending that we believe as the Jehovah's Witnesses. So I am not really disagreeing with Asgar.

But if the soul is not inherently immortal and needs communion with God to be sustained, then it should follow that those who reject this communion--the food of immortality--may also be rejecting the immortality of their souls.

So no, God doesn't destroy souls but we might.

Only God is immortal. All creation is dependent on God for existence, whether it be a stone or a soul. I'm not sure communion (though I don't quite know what you mean by that in the context) has any bearing on it. If everything that exists only exists contingently on God then for God to cease to sustain something would be exactly equivalent to God destroying it, surely? We don't believe that this will happen. I can't see how the idea of the annihilation of the soul can even be seen as a possibility within Orthodoxy. Even if we find ourselves in hell through rejecting God it doesn't mean that He has rejected us.

James

Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Hebrews 9:27 "It is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgement."

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

"The second death" does in no way imply a transmigration of the soul from one body to another (which is non-sense in Christianity). It would come after the Judgement, as it's unfortunate verdict for some.

The Christian doctrine is: one soul - one body from birth to eternity.

It's more like the soul is the inner man and the body his exterior aspect. Each body is the unique material expression of one soul - it's not at all accidental to the person (person in fact means "face"). You recognize people (even Saints or the departed) by looking at their faces.

By the way, the verse you've posted is never interpreted literally in the Orthodox Church - its literal interpretation gave rise to the heresy known as chiliasm or millennialism.

John 9 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.

Sorry for the huge quotation from the Wisdom of Solomon - it's a key text for the Orthodox understanding of the afterlife, so a fragment from chapter 3 is read at the Vespers on almost all the feasts of the Saints.

It also dwells on the classic biblical motif of the "two ways" (cf. Psalm 1, Christ on the narrow and the wide path in the Gospel, echoed by the Didachy of the 12 Apostles, etc.) - that of the righteous and that of the wicked, one leading to life, the other to destruction and death.

The way of the the world has always been to deny immortality, the soul, the after-life, that purpose of leading an ascetic life, of being careful not to sin, etc. This is what brings it into conflict with the Saints, who's always going to end up persecuted or martyred: it explains prophetically what happened to all the Saints from Abel to John the Baptist, to Christ and to all Martyrs and Confessors.

John 9 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.

These verses deal with the entirely different question of why people are afflicted with suffering. Our Lord says that it cannot be merely explained as a punishment for sin: neither a sin that the man committed since he was born (not in a previous life!), nor one inherited from his parents.

John 9 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.

These verses deal with the entirely different question of why people are afflicted with suffering. Our Lord says that it cannot be merely explained as a punishment for sin: neither a sin that the man committed since he was born (not in a previous life!), nor one inherited from his parents.

How could someone sin before his birth and why didn't Jesus or the evangelist refute this view to remove the benefit of the doubt?

How could someone sin before his birth and why didn't Jesus or the evangelist refute this view to remove the benefit of the doubt?

No one can sin before his birth - such an idea would have been altogether alien to the mentality of a 1st century Palestinian Jew, just as it is alien to the mindset of any Orthodox Christian. People simply do not exist before they are born.

Maybe you could be a bit more specific about what question(s) you have? It is a very broad topic. If you are interested in it, I would highly recommend the book "Life After Death" by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos.

How could someone sin before his birth and why didn't Jesus or the evangelist refute this view to remove the benefit of the doubt?

No one can sin before his birth - such an idea would have been altogether alien to the mentality of a 1st century Palestinian Jew, just as it is alien to the mindset of any Orthodox Christian. People simply do not exist before they are born.

Than why did the Apostles as the Scriptures actually and faptically relate -not as you would like- say that? Why did they ask if the guy's personal sin was that which caused him to be born blind?

How could someone sin before his birth and why didn't Jesus or the evangelist refute this view to remove the benefit of the doubt?

No one can sin before his birth - such an idea would have been altogether alien to the mentality of a 1st century Palestinian Jew, just as it is alien to the mindset of any Orthodox Christian. People simply do not exist before they are born.

Than why did the Apostles as the Scriptures actually and faptically relate -not as you would like- say that? Why did they ask if the guy's personal sin was that which caused him to be born blind?

Maybe they didn't know he was blind from birth.

Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

Great Caesar's Ghost! I read this thread and thought I was on a Baptist forum with all the prooftexting Scripture going on here.

The quote by St. Isaac the Syrian that was posted earlier has been the traditional Orthodox belief in regards to our fate after death. I have never heard of any other teachings from any of my readings of Church Fathers, modern-day Orthodox literature or from my priest.

FlickFlack, are you Orthodox? Much of what you post brings back memories of my time in an eccentric non-denominational church I used to attend as a child.

The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Job 38:21 Thou knowest, for thou wast then born, and the number of thy days is great!

Ephes 1:4 As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity.

If an artist decides to paint something, that painting can be said to be on his mind/in his intellect before it is made. That isn't to say that it existed substantially in the world before he actually paints it.

How could someone sin before his birth and why didn't Jesus or the evangelist refute this view to remove the benefit of the doubt?

No one can sin before his birth - such an idea would have been altogether alien to the mentality of a 1st century Palestinian Jew, just as it is alien to the mindset of any Orthodox Christian. People simply do not exist before they are born.

Than why did the Apostles as the Scriptures actually and faptically relate -not as you would like- say that? Why did they ask if the guy's personal sin was that which caused him to be born blind?

What does "faptically" mean? (Darn this low IQ!)

Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Than why did the Apostles as the Scriptures actually and faptically relate -not as you would like- say that? Why did they ask if the guy's personal sin was that which caused him to be born blind?

Ok, in case people are wondering about FlickFlack's IP (not IQ), I can officially attest to his being Romanian or (less likely) Sardinian. Latin ct>pt only in these languages. That's forensic linguistics for you.

PS There's a chance he might be writing from a different country, but his mother tongue is Romanian, for sure.

Than why did the Apostles as the Scriptures actually and faptically relate -not as you would like- say that? Why did they ask if the guy's personal sin was that which caused him to be born blind?

Ok, in case people are wondering about FlickFlack's IP (not IQ), I can officially attest to his being Romanian or (less likely) Sardinian. Latin ct>pt only in these languages. That's forensic linguistics for you.

PS There's a chance he might be writing from a different country, but his mother tongue is Romanian, for sure.

You beat me to it. The way he's been in various threads I've been wondering if he hasn't been evangelised by Romanian baptists or the like (he could even be one - wouldn't be the first time I've seen them claiming to be Orthodox as a ploy - but I'd prefer to take his claim to be Orthodox at face value for the moment).

James

Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

How could someone sin before his birth and why didn't Jesus or the evangelist refute this view to remove the benefit of the doubt?

No one can sin before his birth - such an idea would have been altogether alien to the mentality of a 1st century Palestinian Jew, just as it is alien to the mindset of any Orthodox Christian. People simply do not exist before they are born.

Than why did the Apostles as the Scriptures actually and faptically relate -not as you would like- say that? Why did they ask if the guy's personal sin was that which caused him to be born blind?

How could someone sin before his birth and why didn't Jesus or the evangelist refute this view to remove the benefit of the doubt?

No one can sin before his birth - such an idea would have been altogether alien to the mentality of a 1st century Palestinian Jew, just as it is alien to the mindset of any Orthodox Christian. People simply do not exist before they are born.

Than why did the Apostles as the Scriptures actually and faptically relate -not as you would like- say that? Why did they ask if the guy's personal sin was that which caused him to be born blind?

What does "faptically" mean? (Darn this low IQ!)

Faptic.

That's factual or actual in English. Are you expecting the non-Romanian speakers to translate your words for you?

James

Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Than why did the Apostles as the Scriptures actually and faptically relate -not as you would like- say that? Why did they ask if the guy's personal sin was that which caused him to be born blind?

Ok, in case people are wondering about FlickFlack's IP (not IQ), I can officially attest to his being Romanian or (less likely) Sardinian. Latin ct>pt only in these languages. That's forensic linguistics for you.

PS There's a chance he might be writing from a different country, but his mother tongue is Romanian, for sure.

You beat me to it. The way he's been in various threads I've been wondering if he hasn't been evangelised by Romanian baptists or the like (he could even be one - wouldn't be the first time I've seen them claiming to be Orthodox as a ploy - but I'd prefer to take his claim to be Orthodox at face value for the moment).

James

I am not a Baptist and I am willing to show my Orthodox Certificate of Baptism provided that you two do it before me and that you two get permanently banned on this forum if I am Orthodox. I don't know what is going on, but I have the impression this scrupulous person Romaios keeps telling people bad stuff about me, although he never met me, nor does he know who I am.