hi thoxie, ascenders have to have teeth to be able to grip the rope for ascent, however these teeth are made to grab the fibers of the rope's sheath and do not penetrate deep enough to really damage the inner fibers if used correctly.

Thoxie: B4 i spout advice, I'd like to know why you are looking into ascenders? Are you gonna go do bigwalls? Are you looking at taking a crevasse extrication class? Alpine situations? These questions will in some sense determine what kind of ascender you'll want. For walls, ascenders with teeth are good. Ask DRPiton pete abt his preference (he answered that question recently in a forum, but I'm too lazy to look it up). I still use an ancient pair of CMIs which i oughta replace, cause they suck. But if you want an ascender for alpinism/crevasse extrication, I suggest you avoid the Toothy ascenders, as the teeth ice up, and then the ascender will slip, and folks (meaning maybe YOU) might get hurt. There is one ascender on the market which doesn't have these teeth you speak of. They're called Gibbs ascenders. most people don't use them though, although I like them for rescue situations, particularly RIVER rescue, for which y=they sell an excruciatingly EXPENSIVE stainless steel version. Instead of biting into the rope, they sort of CRUSH their way into the rope. This scares some people, but then again teeth scare some people. They do not have a handle, so they really suck for jumaring on rock. but they do not ice up and slip like all the others out there. I would bet that you could get away with prussiks if you're not going bigwalling. I use prussiks for most of my glacier travel/crevasse extrication, as you usually don't end up using the damned things unless you're climbing with some dumass who can't tell a crevasse from a pretty lass. And I don't climb with those kinda folks anymore unless I'm getting paid BIG $$$$. Also, look up a thing called the bachman knot, and never use the biner as a handle when using said knot. AND LEARN the KLEIMHEIST knot. This knot works well on WET ROPES, which other friction knots will slip on. It (kleimheist) has the added advantage of being a good knot when all you have to use for your rescue or ascending is a RUNNER. Most "climbers" do not know how to use these various ascender knots, so I suggest that you work with them extensively, as cool pieces of gear tend to get DROPPED off a cliff once in awhile (these are gravity sports, right?)....often leaving the UNPRACTICED GEAR BUFFOON stranded and in need of a RESCUE..It also happens that you might need to RESCUE someone when you least expect it, and must use friction knots instead of COOL GEAR. For these reasons, agree with the guy above, who suggested that you learn to use friction knots for a week or 2 B4 you drop a hunnerd bucks on ascenders. If nothing else, you'll know what a PAIN in the BUTT friction knots are to use....

You may want to ask Passthepitonspete, or I could move this over to the aid forum for you. He's a wealth of information and would be more than willing to write an entire novel on this subject just for you.

Look, thox, If all you're gonna do is rappel, I suggest Three things; 1) I REALLY SUGGEST that you find a TEACHER, because, although I survived my bumbly early period in climbing/rapelling, you might die if you weren't as lucky as I was. I can assure you, I was VERY lucky. 2) either use a backup belay line, or get someone to stand at the bottom of the cliff and give you a rappel safety. How you do this is thusly; if the rappeller loses control, the bottom safety person simply pulls on the rope, which will slow or stop the out of control rappeller, depending on how hard they pull. This assumes that you are not dumb enough to try the infamous and dangerous "body rappel", which is named as such due to the fact that, when using it, you are likely to end up at the bottom of the cliff as a BODY.. 2) for safety, use a prussik backup setup for yourself, tied to a locking biner on your harness with a releasable method like the mariner's hitch. That way, if you load the prussik in an emergency, you can release it. If you do not use a releasable method, it's a real pain in the ass to get the prussik unloaded once it's been loaded. FIND a TEACHER. FIND a TEACHER. FIND a TEACHER.

First of all, I agree with everything Graniteboy says, especially the part about getting a teacher. A teacher will help you not die - this is fundamental to your success. It is very easy to die when you start playing around 150' cliffs if you don't know what you're doing, or you merely think you know what you're doing.

A teacher will help you build redundancy into your system. This means that when you do something stupid, your teacher may actually be able to save your life.

Statistically speaking, rappelling is one of the most dangerous things you can do climbing! Intuitively you might not believe this, but believe me when I tell you, it's true. Ask Tom Patey. One of the truths about climbing is that "a lot of good guys get the chop while rappelling.

Having any luck finding Tom? He was a good guy, one of the best climbing writers you will ever read! One Man's Mountains by Tom Patey is highly recommended by Dr. Pee'd On as excellent reading.

If you're not having any luck finding Tom, you should look up Aischan Rupp, another good guy I've met, and ask him.

The reason people die rappelling so often is fourfold - one only set of anchors, one only rope (or ropes if you are double rope), one only set of hands, one only brain. If any of these four things fails, you will die. It happens. A lot. Ask Tom.

Rappelling is freaking dangerous! Another excellent way to build some more redundancy into your system is to use a separate belay rope. This may well save your life if one of the four things above fails.

Am I sounding in any way patronizing?

If you answered "yes," then you are correct. My objective here is to keep you alive, not to make you feel good. The quicker you realize how freaking dangerous this stuff is, the more likely you are to remain alive long enough to figure it out!

If you are going to become a real climber, you must ALWAYS have the facility to move either way on a rope. In this instance, "ALWAYS" means "at all times." This is a very patronizing comment. It is meant to be.

This means that you must be able to make for yourself a descending rig and an ascending rig from whatever you will always have on your body. This is called learning the basics, because it is the basics that keep you alive.

You may say, "I have a rappel device." Very well. But what do you do if you drop it?

Accordingly, you should know how to do three things when it comes to descending a rope:

Firstly, you should know how to do a body rappel in case you ever find yourself looking at a descent rope, but are not wearing a harness. This is one you should practise on a short ten or fifteen foot drop. You should know how to do this because when you are in the mountains or when you are in caves you will sometimes find better-rigged-than-not drops rigged with a rope or handline. Knowing how to body rappel is fundamental.

Note: A body rappel hurts! Make sure you know how to do it, and wear a shirt with a collar. This is not something you will want to practise very much. Your gonads will thank me for that last comment.

Secondly, you should know how to properly make a munter hitch, which is sometimes called a friction knot. This is a method of rappelling on one or two ropes that requires nothing more than a single locker, or else two standards with the gates opposed. It twists your rope all to H-E-double- hockey-stick, but it works.

Do not assume that you can tie this thing just because somebody showed you once! The first time someone showed me, I spent the next week trying to retie it, and couldn't figure it out til I got back to the cliff and found someone to show me! So learn the munter.

If you are a climber and you do not know the munter, learn it NOW.

The munter hitch besides being used for rappelling, can also be used for belaying. This is extremely handy if you have forgotten or lost your Gri-gri or your sticht plate or new-fangled equivalent to the latter.

Thirdly, you should know how to make up a carabiner-brakebar descending rig out of four standard carabiners and either a locker, or a couple more standards. This is works basically the same way as a sticht plate.

If you are going to be a climber or caver, sooner or later you will find yourself on the end of a rope, dangling in space, with the very great need to get up the rope. This happens when rappelling when you get lost or off route or your rope is too short, it happens caving when your rope is too short, and it happens after a lead fall. If you do not have your ascenders with you, you had better know how to get up a rope with what you have!

You should ALWAYS be able to move both ways on a rope! Even James Bond knew how to make prusiks from his shoelaces. Dr. Pee'd On does not advocate this approach, even when the bad guys are shooting at you. It is better to use a sling or a prusik loop that you had with you!

An excellent source of information on knots, especially ascending knots, can be found at my friend Gary Storrick's website. I've done some exploration with Gary looking for a back entrance to Canadian Hole in the Friar's Hole Cave System in West Virginia.

And let's get this bit straight, too:

There is only ONE "S" in "prusik" !!

Sheesh.

[Aside: This is right up there with "most commonly misspelled words" along with "mantel." If you are climbing up onto a ledge using only the ledge, it is like you are climbing onto the mantelshelf above a fireplace.]

You can click here to see ascending knots.

First of all, the prusik knot is no hell. All you have to do is try it, and you will see that half the twists do absolutely nothing.

The most important knot to know is the Kleimheist. This is dead easy to tie - just wrap your cord around the rope a few times, and stick the long end through the short end. Works every time, as Graniteboy points out.

The Bachmann knot can be handy to use every now and then.

You should fart around a bit with Hedden knots and Klemheist knots.

The Klemheist will work fine in a pinch if all you have is a sewn sling or a sling made from 1/2" tubular webbing. The reason you need to know how to do stuff in a pinch is that this is usually the time when you are about to die if you don't know what to do!

If you know how to tie a Klemheist, you have a few odds and ends of slings and crabs on you, and you have some ingenuity, you can get yourself out of most any ascending scrap.

Incidentally, a Gri-gri works very well as an ascender and is actually my preferred method of ascent when I am cleaning aid pitches. When I clean aid, I use a gri-gri, an ascender, and an adjustable fifi or daisy.

One of the most important uses for an ascending knot is as a backup during rappel. You should get into the habit of backing yourself up during rappel. You can use an ascending knot or an ascender, but the best device is probably a Petzl Shunt. I don't own one, and doubt I ever will because the things cost money.

Gary Storrick advocates NOT using a rappel backup. This is because of the tendency to put your backup in a death grip when you get scared and are falling, thus causing it not to work. When YOU have as much experience as Gary does, then maybe you can do without the backup, too. But until such time, USE A BACKUP!

My favourite backup is a Petzl ascender with my thumb gently holding the cam open. Do NOT open the cam all the way by moving the lever to the side - just press your thumb against the cam enough to push the cam away from the rope.

This takes a bit of practice, but is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED by Dr. Pee'd On! Ask Tom!

Previously, I did not use a rappel backup very often, if at all. Now I do so all the time.

I used to think I knew what I was doing and was therefore very unlikely to make a mistake.

I now know what I am doing, and know that sooner or later, making a mistake is guaranteed. I would like to be able to be able to tell my mom about my mistakes.

As far as the right equipment goes, I do not have time at the moment to explain how it works.

There are any number of ways to ascend a rope. The best book ever written on the subject is called ON ROPE by Bruce Smith and Allen Padgett and if you are going to be a Real Climber you would be well-advised to read this book.

Around here, we do things the better way. I do not have time to hunt down the links, but you can find this information in other stuff I have written here.

As far as using ascenders to move yourself up rope goes - (and ascenders have many other uses, by the way!) - you will use them in only one of two ways: to clean an aid pitch or to ascend a rope.

In the case of the former, when you are cleaning aid pitches, you can read here on the website where I advocate the use of one handled ascender and one Gri-gri. When the ascender is used in combination with either an adjustable daisy or an adjustable fifi, you have a superb method of cleaning pitches under any and all circumstances.

You do NOT need two ascenders to clean a pitch!

When ascending a rope, there is the traditional way, and there is the better way. I may be the most uniquely qualified person on the face of the planet to answer this question because I have done both caving and climbing to so significant a degree. I don't know of any wall climbers who have my caving experience, and I don't know any cavers with my wall climbing experience. And cavers, you see, have climbers beat all to hell when it comes to jugging.

I have watched all manner of wall climbers struggling and fighting with their jugs all over El Cap (but usually just on the first pitches before they give up and go home) and I can tell you that my method of ascending, which is the Petzl Frog system is roughly three times as fast as the traditional Yosemite System when ascending free-hanging rope. The Yosemite System is marginally faster on slabs, but not enough to make it worth buying two handled ascenders.

If you are going to do things the better way, which is the way cavers do it, you will need to make yourself a

PETZL FROG ASCENDING SYSTEM.

Please study this link - it is excellent!!

You can also click here to see Petzl's PDF on the Frog.

Thanks to punk for finding that Petzl link!

The Petzl frog system uses one regular handled ascender, and one Petzl Croll ascender.

Dr. Piton On HIGHLY RECOMMENDS you buy ONE handled ascender and ONE Croll ascender!!

You do not ever need two handled ascenders!

Take it from a guy who knows.

Cheers,

Dr. Piton

P.S. Hey - are you having trouble finding Tom Patey and Aischan Rupp? They're both good guys for sure.

Oh dear, I'm sorry I forgot to mention it - they both died rappelling.

There is another method of ascending which cavers sometime use, and this is called

THE ROPEWALKER

If you want to see how it works, then please CLICK HERE.

You may wonder why anyone would want to use a klunky piece of SHITE like this, but it does have its use.

The ONLY VIABLE APPLICATION for the Ropewalker ascending system is for VERY LONG FREEHANGING DROPS.

Unless you are regularly ascending free-hanging and not-rebelayed drops of three hundred feet or more, then the Ropewalker is NOT recommended!

Believe me, I know - I've used it.

You will spend more time clipping and unclipping all this CRAP from the rope then you actually spend CLIMBING, for cryin' out loud.

And don't even think about crossing a rebelay or a knot - you are guaranteed an epic nightmare.

Note:

Dr. Pee'd On is intimately familiar with epic rebelay crossings using the Ropewalker - if you can imagine struggling with three friggin' stupid ascenders while you are hanging beneath a waterfall, and of course all of this happening while you are in the dark because the waterfall put out your carbide lamp, then you will understand why I recommend them only for big honkin' drops.

If you are going to go rap and jug Sotano de las Golondrinas which is a very cool 1094-foot-deep BIG FRIGGIN' PIT in Mexico, then the Ropewalker system would be ideal.

Otherwise, stick to the Petzl Frog system. Here is another look at the Petzl Frog.

Here is a picture of a dude using a Ropewalker on the 586' Fantastic Pit in Ellison's Cave, Georgia. If this is the type of pit you are bouncing every weekend, then [and]only then] might you consider a Ropewalker.

Note: Dr. Pee'd On has jugged Fantastic Pit using his Petzl Frog system with no probs, thank you very much. In fact, Dr. Pee'd On rigged his rope on the 612-foot high side of the drop, just like Billy Bob Redneck TAG Caver Jr.

If you would like to be a pit bobbing gumby, then YOU should make a Ropewalker system, too.

But.....

...if there is to be a better way to make a rope walking system, leave it to the folks at Petzl to come up with it, eh?

Here you can see the Petzl Pantin, which is an ascender that you ADD to the Frog system.

Quoting from the Petzl Catalogue, which incidentally should be on EVERY big wall climber's bookshelf:

Quote:Foot-mounted rope clamp/grab. A big advantage for long rope ascents. With the Pantin, supporting the foot holds the body in a more upright position and makes the ascent faster and less tiring for the arms. The Pantin is also easily removed from the rope with a simple movement of the foot. [emphasis] The Pantin is used only on the right foot and in complement with the Croll and Ascension rope clamps/grabs: the Pantin is not an item of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE).

Stilted grammar aside (translated from French, ooh-la-la!) the Pantin may end up being the better way, although the jury is still out on this one. Although I have not used it, it appears that in Petzl's attempt to make the thing clip on and off the rope with a snap of the foot, they made the spring too weak, and it has a habit of popping off, which is probably rather annoying.

Sorry, Dr. Pin. I am a bit dense. At first I thought you were advocating a "texas style" (i.e. both feet in one aider) jugging system with a Gri-Gri but later it seemed you were talking about the use of a Petzl Croll. I am assuming these devices would be interchangable. I have used the "texas style" system for caving and crevasse rescue and it does seem pretty efficient. Jugging on. Johnhenry

Gibbs ascenders have little ridges, not teeth. They will even grab onto ropes that are muddy and icy. They would be sheer hell for following pitches, though, because you have to dismantle the things to get them off the rope and around a piece on a traverse.

My experience with old-school jumars is that the teeth will barely fluff the sheath, if at all. You'll get more wear on the rope where it runs over edges, especially if you bounce around alot while ascending.

Firstly, John, the Texas System and the Petzl Frog System are NOT one and the same.

The Texas System has the ascender with the foot loop attached rigged below the ascender attached to your harness. This is opposite to the Frog System which has the foot loop attachment above the harness/Croll attachment.

In the Frog system, the Croll ascender automatically slides up the rope as you stand - it is pulled upwards by your chest harness, or in the system I use, by the elastic around my neck.

The Texas system requires you to manually lift your harness jug as you try to balance one-handed in your leg loops!

The Texas rig is a strenuous epic nightmare and is emphatically NOT RECOMMENDED!

Secondly, you can see a couple photos of the Petzl Frog system in use by clicking here and by clicking here.

I know that I am not the only person to make that error between Texas and Frog. Since posting that last message I have had the oppotunity to check out what you mean.

The Frog is the s--- for three person team that require one climber to jug a free line!

Thanks, John

P.S. You are the first caver I have actually trusted for systems beta. Most of you guys kinda weird me out. As a result, I usually recruit climbers to go underground. I should not be so quick to stereotype. There is always "a better way."

Dr. P, I have a question. I learned aid the old fashion way. And now, because of a mid life crisis, or divorce, or not waking in the morning with a woody, I've decided I need to return to aid climbing. I'm interested in better ways. Specifically, the frog system. I see this being very advantageous on vertical and overhung walls, but what happens on a lower angle slab, ex. Lower pitches of the nose or salathe'? It seems that the system would leave my kneecaps bruised and bloody. Yes I'm wearing kneepads. So before I buy in can you explain. I think I'll still be carrying that second jug, old habits die hard. Thanx

You have correctly pointed out, Rick, one of the inherent weaknesses of the Petzl Frog System, and that is its use on Lower Angle Slabs.

You are quite right - it does not work well in this situation! What I find is that once the angle is less than vertical, I remove one foot from the foot loop, and jug with one foot on rock, and one foot in the foot loop. You do a sort of scissors step with one foot on the footholds of the rock, and one foot way out behind you. You can get HUGE steps this way.

But as the angle becomes truly slabby, and I am well familiar with the areas of the Big Stone you describe, the old fashioned Yosemite jugging system will cremate the Frog in terms of speed.

I'll wave at you as you go running past me!

Cheers,

Dr. P.

Notes:

As a word of encouragement, you might be interested to know that virtually all of my wall climbing experience has come during my Post Divorce Renaissance.

As for your lack of morning sprightliness, Dr. Piton is emphatically unfamiliar with that particular malady!

Here`s another link which shows the frog system in a fairly well drawn pic. http://www.cavepage.magna.com.au/cave/SRT.html Oh yes, um Pete is this pic something like what you mean about morning maladys This pic has been lifted from the Passthepitons petes photo gallery without permission so um Pete can I use this pic retrospectively. ...Phil...

>>f you are going to go rap and jug Sotano de las Golondrinas which is a very cool 1094-foot-deep BIG FRIGGIN' PIT in Mexico, then the Ropewalker system would be ideal. <<

Say Pete, How long in minutes would it take to jug out the hole (thought it was 1400'?) using the ropewalker, and how long in minutes would it take using the standard 2 jumar Yosemite method of jugging? First hand info if you have it.... adios, Russ

Sotano de los Golondrinas is something like 1096'. It is the one with the sixty-foot diameter hole on top, and bells open to a five-acre floor. Guys have sky-dived into it.

You may be thinking of El Sotano which is deeper, but more of an open-air pit with somewhat tree-lined sides.

Russ, I've never done either, though it would be fun.

First of all, I don't think it would be possible, and it sure as hell wouldn't be sane, to even consider trying to jug such a monstrous pit using the standard Yosemite two-jug system! That system is incredibly strenuous and horribly inefficient when compared to the Frog!

Despite the fact that on a typical solo ascent of El Cap, I jug it the equivalent of four times [think about it - one jug to clean, two jugs to haul on the 2:1, and one more time with various fixing and farting around] - the longest single drop I have ever jugged was Fantastic Pit in Ellison's Cave which you can find on Pigeon Mountain, Georgia, not surprisingly right above the PMI rope factory.

I chucked my Gibbs Ropewalker system twenty years ago because it's a clunky piece of sh*t that takes longer to attach to the freakin' rope than it does to climb it! And you can forget trying to cross a rebelay, mate - that's an epic nightmare in the dark.

So when I jugged Fantastic, I quite happily used my good 'ol Frog system, and I believe it took us about fifteen or twenty minutes. We were tandem jugging a piece of 11mm PMI - two guys on one rope at the same time. One guy does fifteen steps, then rests as the other guy climbs. Standard caver practice on very long drops.

Truly, a Ropewalker would not have shaved much time off of that. Obviously, time is more a function of fitness! In fact, were I ever to do Golondrinas, I'm quite sure I'd just use my Frog. It really is that good!

Incidentally, a couple weeks ago I timed myself, and I jugged two hundred feet in slightly less than three minutes, which I considered to be pretty good for an old fart.

Mind you, it nearly killed me.

The things you can do when there's a hottie standing at the base watching you, eh?

>>Sotano de los Golondrinas is something like 1096'. It is the one with the sixty-foot diameter hole on top, and bells open to a five-acre floor. Guys have sky-dived into it. >First of all, I don't think it would be possible, and it sure as hell wouldn't be sane, to even consider trying to jug such a monstrous pit using the standard Yosemite two-jug system! That system is incredibly strenuous and horribly inefficient when compared to the Frog! <<

Saw all kinds of caver type stuff while on this gig.... took up to 1.5 hours for some of the guys to ascend the cord using various methods. I used the Yosemite system (2 jumars and aiders) and cracked it off in 48 minutes give or take. I concur on the strenuous part. Thought I was going to have a stroke.

Anyway, the point being, in the right hands the Yosemite system is not only more flexible than other methods, but can be used all the time, where as a specialized free hang jugging set up is somewhat limited in its applications. That and I'm old and set in my ways. blab later, Russ

I read earlier on in this thread that ascending with 1 grigri + 1 jumar could be a good way (at least for trad people that do not go that often onto big walls - sorry we are are in lack over here). I also understood that the Petzl Clog system would be a better way, but I happen to own a grigri already (as most of us do).

So the question is: should I buy a right hand or left hand jumar? Having only one right hand (!) should it be left for the grigri or the jumar?

Side question: Would you use one daisy to the jumar with 2 aiders and attach the grigri directly to the harness?