I think Soul of the Forest will start win over more of the population. They will reduce the burst of Balance Druids by spacing out the damage of NV. Sims aren't showing a huge difference in dps between the two in BiS. Blizzrd's goal is to make our choice in talents completely preference.

Soul of the Forest only potentially shortens Solar to Lunar by one cast -- it does nothing lunar to solar. If you get Starsurge procs in there, it's not even shortening your solar to lunar.

Soul of the Forest generates more energy starting in 5.2. My point is that SotF and HotW will be the preferred choice come the 5.2 patch.

Yeah, I got that, and if you do the math you'll see that it doesn't help Lunar to Solar whatsoever, and it only helps Solar to Lunar if you fail to get Starsurge p rocs. I'm not sure where you're pulling this "SotF and HotW" will be the preferred choice. WrathCalcs is showing very little to no DPS gain with the SotF buff.

Yeah, I got that, and if you do the math you'll see that it doesn't help Lunar to Solar whatsoever, and it only helps Solar to Lunar if you fail to get Starsurge p rocs. I'm not sure where you're pulling this "SotF and HotW" will be the preferred choice. WrathCalcs is showing very little to no DPS gain with the SotF buff.

So what is the current verdict on the talents DPS wise in 5.2, if any sims were run? Also compared to live ones?

The DPS value on WrathCalcs did not really change for SotF, because the old model was assuming you generally got a starsurge proc anyways.
SotF may be more attractive for reducing wrath casts (potentially), but the ability to line up incarnation with cooldowns still makes it very attractive.

Nature's Vigil obviously will be nerfed, but will add greater utility. It won't be as bursty, and since we will have to pop it immediately once it's up the second time (to ensure it lines back up with incarnation), it may be a sub-prime place we're popping it. They'll be close, but we may be seeing Inc/HotW builds.

Nature's Vigil obviously will be nerfed, but will add greater utility. It won't be as bursty, and since we will have to pop it immediately once it's up the second time (to ensure it lines back up with incarnation), it may be a sub-prime place we're popping it. They'll be close, but we may be seeing Inc/HotW builds.

But wasn't NV (and their synergy) the only reason we took Inc over SotF before? If Inc+NV doesn't cut it anymore I wil probably go SotF+HotW or FoN depending how good the treants are.

If we do end up with an Inc/HotW build I would be interested to see what the ideal starting rotation would be for fights we lust on the pull. It basically comes down to what benefits from lust more, the standard Inc --> CA rotation or HotW cat dps. After that managing a 6min CD 45sec duration will feel wonky at first since we want to get full benefit from it's uptime but we also do not want to delay and possibly end up losing a Inc/CA rotation because of time spent doing cat dps.

The level 90 tier AKA "How awkward and clunky can we make Druid gameplay?"

Also don't forget to pickup the Agi staff from Tsulong, as a weapon swapping macro will be a part of this rotation.

If we do end up with an Inc/HotW build I would be interested to see what the ideal starting rotation would be for fights we lust on the pull. It basically comes down to what benefits from lust more, the standard Inc --> CA rotation or HotW cat dps. After that managing a 6min CD 45sec duration will feel wonky at first since we want to get full benefit from it's uptime but we also do not want to delay and possibly end up losing a Inc/CA rotation because of time spent doing cat dps.

The level 90 tier AKA "How awkward and clunky can we make Druid gameplay?"

Also don't forget to pickup the Agi staff from Tsulong, as a weapon swapping macro will be a part of this rotation.

With the nerfs that happened awhile back to HotW, I don't think swapping to feral will be part of the rotation, it's merely for the 6% increase to intellect.

Well whether or not it's more DPS than standing still and nuking is completely still up in the air. However what is not up in the air is the fact that it is way, way better on the move DPS than Lunar Shower spamming. In fact, Lunar Shower spamming is so bad that Erdluf actually had the math on EJ to show that even without HotW, it was actually more DPS to spend 2 globals shifting and apply a rake then to spam MF or SF.

So something like Get Away on Lei Shei is definitely a situation where you would want to use it. Rake does so much damage that I can't believe it would not be better to use HotW and at the very least keep Rake up 100% time and switch back to Moonkin in between. You should get off 5 rakes during the duration so you can finish with 5pt FB before the buff expires. Spending the entire 45 sec in cat probably not.

I posted a bit more thoroughly about Force of Nature here, but the short and dirty version:

Each treant wrath cast is (1642 + 30% SP). They benefit from your haste and crit when cast, it doesn't dynamically update. It does not gain from solar eclipse (despite the Treant's Wrath tooltip showing it does).

There also seems to be a pretty damning delay before it first casts. In theory, with my haste, I should be able to get in 8 wrath casts per tree. I only get 7. With nature's grace up, I should get 9, I get 8. With nature's grace and essence of terror, 11, but I get 9.

I posted a bit more thoroughly about Force of Nature here, but the short and dirty version:

Each treant wrath cast is (1642 + 30% SP). They benefit from your haste and crit when cast, it doesn't dynamically update. It does not gain from solar eclipse (despite the Treant's Wrath tooltip showing it does).

There also seems to be a pretty damning delay before it first casts. In theory, with my haste, I should be able to get in 8 wrath casts per tree. I only get 7. With nature's grace up, I should get 9, I get 8. With nature's grace and essence of terror, 11, but I get 9.

Here here for more underpowered/not working properly talents.
Really hoping the NV nerf is "changed" so balance remains how it is.

Here here for more underpowered/not working properly talents.
Really hoping the NV nerf is "changed" so balance remains how it is.

I honestly like the idea of a 1 minute cooldown like treants, because right now our damage varies quite a bit depending on where we are in our 3 minute cooldown cycle. It'd just need to be competitive and actually work the way it should -- but then the concern is our burst damage in PVP.

I honestly like the idea of a 1 minute cooldown like treants, because right now our damage varies quite a bit depending on where we are in our 3 minute cooldown cycle. It'd just need to be competitive and actually work the way it should -- but then the concern is our burst damage in PVP.

GC has a tweet somewhere saying that Starsurge (the damaging source of Moonkin burst) isn't that big of a deal atm, rather no one is really complaining about it--at all. Blizzard needs to take a second look at the primary cause of Druid burst (Incarnation can't really yell any louder than it already is), and at least rip apart the true damage modifier.

What your opinion on the 5.2 T90 talents? My opinion is as follows~
• I would love to try a DOC build if it simply wasn't so unforgiving to accidents and basic mechanics. I like the idea of passive damage for higher sustained, but lesser burst. HOTW would be nice too, having the ability to swap to a secondary playstyle once an encounter. For very a particularly small window (mostly Tranq), HOTW simply did not scream "raid viable" at first glance, second glance, third...you get the point.

Looking at the dungeon journal available to 5.2 at this time, guess what? More forced movement! So unless they change DOC to something more movement-friendly, it's a bust. HOTW literally has no usage at this point; unless you're one of those players who uses it specifically for an uber Tranq, it's useless. T90 talents are too strict, except NV. NV is simply good for (almost) every situation. Unless these T90 talents become designed for a wider range of raid mechanics, NV is simply the best bang for your buck.