I say Qui-Gon understood the force better than Yoda, considering how he discovered the secret.

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Though he may have discovered it, that does not necessarily mean he invented it from whole cloth.

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of course he didn't invent it. But I think Qui-Gon's view of the force was a much more proactive and wiser way of going about things rather than the council sitting there debating and being indecisive.

The synopsis of the TPM first draft script appeared in the Episode I Insider's Guide software released back in 1999. I have screenshots of the various text balloons somewhere; I really ought to dig them up and post them here.

I say Qui-Gon understood the force better than Yoda, considering how he discovered the secret.

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Though he may have discovered it, that does not necessarily mean he invented it from whole cloth.

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of course he didn't invent it. But I think Qui-Gon's view of the force was a much more proactive and wiser way of going about things rather than the council sitting there debating and being indecisive.

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Where do we ever see an indecisive Council? They decide not to train Anakin. They decided to send Obi-Wan after Padme's killer. They decided to send Obi-Wan after Grevious. They decide to give Anakin a seat on the Council. It is very arguable that they made alot of wrong decisions, but you can't really call the Jedi Council indecisive.

Where do we ever see an indecisive Council? They decide not to train Anakin. They decided to send Obi-Wan after Padme's killer. They decided to send Obi-Wan after Grevious. They decide to give Anakin a seat on the Council. It is very arguable that they made alot of wrong decisions, but you can't really call the Jedi Council indecisive.

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I always felt that much of their decision making was sorta "well lets just do this cause we don't have any better ideas". The council was very stagnant & set in its ways.

I can see it. Sort of. I agree with Alexrd that George Lucas has never been one to vie for industry acceptance or critical embrace, but then again neither does Qui-Gon seem interested in appealing to the Council norms. I doubt the character’s maverick spirit came out of thin air. What’s more important is that Qui-Gon never takes an outright negative stance against his peers or shows any hint of contempt, but rather a Zen philosophy to the whole ordeal: "I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan", he answers coolly. The same goes for Lucas, for the most part. Here’s a guy who’s spoken honestly about the hardships of both studio indifference/interference and the intense passions and preconceived notions of a, uh, less than happy fanbase. But never once has he outright slandered anyone nor have his actions as a filmmaker seemed driven by spite, excluding the occasional wink and irreverent tease here and there. He's always simply done what feels honest to him as an artist, shrugging away the rest with a similar unaffected demeanor.

It is funny, if not telling, to think that Qui-Gon is the only one open-minded enough to initially give Jar Jar and little Ani a chance. Huh.

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"Are you brainless?" Sure, open minded...

...though I agree anyone can have an off moment.

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Thats because Jar Jar almost got him killed. An off moment is an understatement to say the least!

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Qui-Gon was very brittle to begin with, first admonishing his own apprentice with a hint of annoyance, then brandishing the TF as "cowards", looking slant-eyed at Obi-Wan when he made his first quip at Qui-Gon's expense ("The negotiations were short"), and finally telling Jar Jar to get lost, before casually slamming him for being "brainless" (or posing it as rhetorical, needling question; like the kind Obi-Wan later poses to him over his perception of Anakin's non-danger on Coruscant). At this point in the film, Qui-Gon is more like an anti-hero, or an outright villain. That even a sophisticated Jedi Master cannot seem to tell the difference between a person idly blocking another's way because they are in someway not "all there" (which still wouldn't warrant a harsh rebuke) or because they are ****-scared and would naturally freeze on the spot (and Jar Jar is not the sort to actually run away easily) is quite disturbing; and in my opinion, must be taken as condemnation of the Jedi Order more generally. Fortunately, Qui-Gon softens after he seems to reason or intuit he is dealing with a good-hearted child-like individual who was merely frightened by a strange and terrifying event and means no harm. I tried to delve into this with my new Jar Jar thread: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/thinkin-bout-jar-jar.50009174/ Qui-Gon yields, finally bending like a willow in the breeze, if only a bit, and that says something positive about his meeting/collision with Jar Jar, I think.

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I think a big part of that is Jan Dooku's influence at work: the "go your own way" thread in one's personality winds all the way down through Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and eventually Luke as well. The master's attitude and way of dealing with things rubs off a lot on the student, as we've seen, though from the films alone it's not clear where the break between Yoda's traditionalism and Dooku's break with that lies.

Despite Liam Neeson as the best thing in the film, for me Qui-gon Jin was argubly the most unesescary character of TPM should have been combined with Obi-wan Kenobi to form a new character .... called Obi-wan Kenobi.

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I disagree. Without Qui-Gon, there would be no starting point for Obi-Wan's character development . . . or a starting point for the story development of Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship.

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Why would there be no starting point? How did Qui-Gon get started? However he became who he was, couldn't Kenobi have gotten started the same way before meeting Anakin? Could not many of the same traits and functions of Qui-gon not been made a part of the younger Kenobi? I think they could have, even having Kenobi alone approach the other Jedi, ask to train Anakin, be told it wasn't such a great idea and have him do it anyway would have been acceptable given how he explains his actions in the OT. Even the "cheat death" thing could be something Kenobi discovers with Yoda on their own, it is pretty out of the blue as it is at the end of ROTS, finding out they had it as a side project or something Yoda had been exploring, now more important than even in case they are actually found and killed before the kids have a chance to grow up, would have worked just as well IMO. Or have the "cheat death"/Force ghost thing better integrated in the first place rather than as an afterthought.

I'm not convinced even Qui Gon's death really does anything essential in terms of convincing anyone, including Kenobi, to train him. At least nothing that could not be replaced with another approach.

Despite Liam Neeson as the best thing in the film, for me Qui-gon Jin was argubly the most unesescary character of TPM should have been combined with Obi-wan Kenobi to form a new character .... called Obi-wan Kenobi.

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I disagree. Without Qui-Gon, there would be no starting point for Obi-Wan's character development . . . or a starting point for the story development of Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship.

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Why would there be no starting point? How did Qui-Gon get started? However he became who he was, couldn't Kenobi have gotten started the same way before meeting Anakin? Could not many of the same traits and functions of Qui-gon not been made a part of the younger Kenobi? I think they could have, even having Kenobi alone approach the other Jedi, ask to train Anakin, be told it wasn't such a great idea and have him do it anyway would have been acceptable given how he explains his actions in the OT. Even the "cheat death" thing could be something Kenobi discovers with Yoda on their own, it is pretty out of the blue as it is at the end of ROTS, finding out they had it as a side project or something Yoda had been exploring, now more important than even in case they are actually found and killed before the kids have a chance to grow up, would have worked just as well IMO. Or have the "cheat death"/Force ghost thing better integrated in the first place rather than as an afterthought.

I'm not convinced even Qui Gon's death really does anything essential in terms of convincing anyone, including Kenobi, to train him. At least nothing that could not be replaced with another approach.

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I disagree with you. I think Qui-Gon's championing of Anakin and his death had a major impact on Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship. I think the events of TPM - especially Obi-Wan's reaction to Anakin's relationship with Qui-Gon and the Jedi Council's initial opinion of Anakin - hovered over Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship like a dark cloud . . . even if the pair never admitted it.

And as many have pointed out, Obi-Wan never claimed in ANH that he was the one who had discovered Anakin.

Despite Liam Neeson as the best thing in the film, for me Qui-gon Jin was argubly the most unesescary character of TPM should have been combined with Obi-wan Kenobi to form a new character .... called Obi-wan Kenobi.

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I disagree. Without Qui-Gon, there would be no starting point for Obi-Wan's character development . . . or a starting point for the story development of Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship.

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Why would there be no starting point? How did Qui-Gon get started? However he became who he was, couldn't Kenobi have gotten started the same way before meeting Anakin? Could not many of the same traits and functions of Qui-gon not been made a part of the younger Kenobi? I think they could have, even having Kenobi alone approach the other Jedi, ask to train Anakin, be told it wasn't such a great idea and have him do it anyway would have been acceptable given how he explains his actions in the OT. Even the "cheat death" thing could be something Kenobi discovers with Yoda on their own, it is pretty out of the blue as it is at the end of ROTS, finding out they had it as a side project or something Yoda had been exploring, now more important than even in case they are actually found and killed before the kids have a chance to grow up, would have worked just as well IMO. Or have the "cheat death"/Force ghost thing better integrated in the first place rather than as an afterthought.

I'm not convinced even Qui Gon's death really does anything essential in terms of convincing anyone, including Kenobi, to train him. At least nothing that could not be replaced with another approach.

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I disagree with you. I think Qui-Gon's championing of Anakin and his death had a major impact on Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship. I think the events of TPM - especially Obi-Wan's reaction to Anakin's relationship with Qui-Gon and the Jedi Council's initial opinion of Anakin - hovered over Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship like a dark cloud . . . even if the pair never admitted it.

And as many have pointed out, Obi-Wan never claimed in ANH that he was the one who had discovered Anakin.

Ben never conclusively claimed that he discovered Anakin. Some fans might very well have interpreted it that way, but his wording is ambiguous. He says only:

BENWhen I first knew him, your father wasalready a great pilot. But I was amazed howstrongly the Force was with him. I took itupon myself to train him as a Jedi. Ithought that I could instruct him just aswell as Yoda. I was wrong.

Which is consistent with what we see in TPM. Anakin is a pilot when Obi-Wan first knew him -- he tells Padmé he's been a pilot all his life, can pilot a podracer, and successfully pilots a Naboo starfighter. Obi-Wan was amazed at his midichlorian count and Obi-Wan took it upon himself to train Anakin even going against Yoda's warning.

Ben never conclusively claimed that he discovered Anakin. Some fans might very well have interpreted it that way, but his wording is ambiguous. He says only:

BENWhen I first knew him, your father wasalready a great pilot. But I was amazed howstrongly the Force was with him. I took itupon myself to train him as a Jedi. Ithought that I could instruct him just aswell as Yoda. I was wrong.

Which is consistent with what we see in TPM. Anakin is a pilot when Obi-Wan first knew him -- he tells Padmé he's been a pilot all his life, can pilot a podracer, and successfully pilots a Naboo starfighter. Obi-Wan was amazed at his midichlorian count and Obi-Wan took it upon himself to train Anakin even going against Yoda's warning.

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Your reaching. Next it will be " Luke you will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me, ... Until Qui-gon came along of course"

I suppose you could chalk it up to Obi-wan telling one of his lies again

Despite Liam Neeson as the best thing in the film, for me Qui-gon Jin was argubly the most unesescary character of TPM should have been combined with Obi-wan Kenobi to form a new character .... called Obi-wan Kenobi.

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I disagree. Without Qui-Gon, there would be no starting point for Obi-Wan's character development . . . or a starting point for the story development of Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship.

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Why would there be no starting point? How did Qui-Gon get started? However he became who he was, couldn't Kenobi have gotten started the same way before meeting Anakin? Could not many of the same traits and functions of Qui-gon not been made a part of the younger Kenobi? I think they could have, even having Kenobi alone approach the other Jedi, ask to train Anakin, be told it wasn't such a great idea and have him do it anyway would have been acceptable given how he explains his actions in the OT. Even the "cheat death" thing could be something Kenobi discovers with Yoda on their own, it is pretty out of the blue as it is at the end of ROTS, finding out they had it as a side project or something Yoda had been exploring, now more important than even in case they are actually found and killed before the kids have a chance to grow up, would have worked just as well IMO. Or have the "cheat death"/Force ghost thing better integrated in the first place rather than as an afterthought.

I'm not convinced even Qui Gon's death really does anything essential in terms of convincing anyone, including Kenobi, to train him. At least nothing that could not be replaced with another approach.

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I disagree with you. I think Qui-Gon's championing of Anakin and his death had a major impact on Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship. I think the events of TPM - especially Obi-Wan's reaction to Anakin's relationship with Qui-Gon and the Jedi Council's initial opinion of Anakin - hovered over Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship like a dark cloud . . . even if the pair never admitted it.

And as many have pointed out, Obi-Wan never claimed in ANH that he was the one who had discovered Anakin.

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Oh, I didn't say it doesn't work as is (to an extent) did I? I'm arguing it didn't have to include a Qui Gon to make sense. Once you go that route, sure, it can make sense, but a Kenobi-very-much-like-Qui_gon (perhaps even as old) could have done the same thing. He's just head strong enough to think he knows better than the tired-old council and doesn't get impaled by Maul.

Of course, my fantasy is that, if you're going to go with the "jedi are part of the problem" angle that the PT does, a more rebellious Kenobi and Yoda, trying to convince the other Jedi that they're stuck in their ways, might have done wonders for character depth IMO.

Your reaching. Next it will be " Luke you will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me, ... Until Qui-gon came along of course"

I suppose you could chalk it up to Obi-wan telling one of his lies again

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Nope, not reaching. Simply interpreting the films in a different but equally legitimate manner as you yourself do.

I watched the clip you posted and nothing there indicated that Obi-Wan discovered Anakin. Likewise, that Qui-Gon was Obi-Wan's master does not preclude Yoda from having instructed him. Or have you only ever had one teacher in your lifetime?

It's certainly not a lie, but Qui-Gon had no relevance to Luke while Yoda was still alive and available to teach him. It makes sense for Obi-Wan to mention him.

Oh, I didn't say it doesn't work as is (to an extent) did I? I'm arguing it didn't have to include a Qui Gon to make sense. Once you go that route, sure, it can make sense, but a Kenobi-very-much-like-Qui_gon (perhaps even as old) could have done the same thing. He's just head strong enough to think he knows better than the tired-old council and doesn't get impaled by Maul.

Of course, my fantasy is that, if you're going to go with the "jedi are part of the problem" angle that the PT does, a more rebellious Kenobi and Yoda, trying to convince the other Jedi that they're stuck in their ways, might have done wonders for character depth IMO.

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I agree entirely with this. There was no need for Qui-Gon within the story. I also don't think that there is supposed to be tension between Obi-Wan and Anakin because of the 'rift', certainly not by ROTS, so that there is a lingering suggestion of such from fans (never is it implied within the movies) is, imo, an unnecessary side effect of the introduction of the character.

The thing is I like the character, but then I liked Obi-Wan in ANH - and it is the same character essentially. I wonder if Lucas simply didn't think it appropriate for such worldly wisdom in such a young Jedi, or perhaps that Ewan McGregor would not be able to pull such a characterisation off. In both cases I would disagree.

I should say here that I'm not one who shares the opinion that the Jedi are part of the problem. Their problem was that they are deceived and left with few options, the apparent mess around them actually the work of a cabal pulling the strings around them (perhaps hinting at the reality of many of our own current 'messes'). And some of the worst deception comes from the man they put the most faith in - Anakin Skywalker. If he had bothered to open up to them, those who shared the same dangers and responsibilities as he, then they would have had a much clearer picture of what was really going on.

I'm actually not really sure what to make of the Jedi Council. They definitely seem a bit lost as to how to deal with anything that comes their way...

But honestly, I say they are "part of the problem" because often that is how their ineffectual behavior is defended...like they had to learn a lesson too (or rather the two survivors did).

I do think Jedi being stuck in their ways, too devoted to the Republic and not devoted enough to the will of the Force etc could have been more clearly an issue that Kenobi (as the Qui Gon figure) confronts head on by challenging their authority and teaching Anakin despite their forbidding it. And we could have been made to see Kenobi/Qui Gon as a rebel with a cause, seeing more clearly than some others that are too close to the Senate/government that there is a building problem here that needs to be addressed by reaching out to the Force and listening to it rather than trying to make it fit the will of the Senate as it slides down a slippery slope.

Actually, this argument that Qui-Gon was unnecessary to the story strikes me as irrelevant. Could Lucas have written the PT story without the addition of Qui-Gon? I'm beginning to suspect that perhaps he could. But . . . adding Qui-Gon to the story certainly has not harmed it one bit. In fact, he was one of the best things about the PT. And he made both Obi-Wan and Yoda's characters a lot more ambiguous and interesting. At least for me.

I do think Jedi being stuck in their ways, too devoted to the Republic and not devoted enough to the will of the Force etc could have been more clearly an issue that Kenobi (as the Qui Gon figure) confronts head on by challenging their authority and teaching Anakin despite their forbidding it. And we could have been made to see Kenobi/Qui Gon as a rebel with a cause, seeing more clearly than some others that are too close to the Senate/government that there is a building problem here that needs to be addressed by reaching out to the Force and listening to it rather than trying to make it fit the will of the Senate as it slides down a slippery slope.

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And what would be Obi-Wan's flaws? Even Qui-Gon had flaws. He could be stubborn in his beliefs and was rather manipulative. So what would be Obi-Wan's flaws, if Lucas had portrayed him as this "rebel" who saw clearly than the rest of the Jedi? Because the flawed Obi-Wan of both trilogies is very interesting to me.

His flaws would be that like the Qui Gon character, he is not perfect, he may see the truth, but the path to it is not easy for him, he would be struggling to stay loyal to the Jedi, to the Council while also feeling that they are not acting in the best interests of the bigger picture. And obviously, he fails Anakin ultimately, perhaps by trying to hard to convince him of the right path rather than through example, a quality that would come with age, wisdom...and the OT.

His flaws would be that like the Qui Gon character, he is not perfect, he may see the truth, but the path to it is not easy for him, he would be struggling to stay loyal to the Jedi, to the Council while also feeling that they are not acting in the best interests of the bigger picture.

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This is not the Obi-Wan I saw in the OT. Superficially, he came off as ideal . . . at least until ROTJ, when he tried to convince Luke to kill Anakin/Vader. And the Obi-Wan I also remembered from ANH painted a rosy and ideal picture of both the Jedi and the Republic. I cannot see the Obi-Wan you wanted for the PT doing this. I'm sorry, but your ideas of how Obi-Wan should have been portrayed in the PT seemed to conflict with the older Obi-Wan I remembered from the OT.

I guess we have to agree to disagree, because the Kenobi I know could certainly be a Qui Gon type. Not sure what I suggest that really seriously conflicts. Probably more a matter of personal interpretation on both our parts. But as for the rosy picture, that's still there regardless of whether Qui Gon and Kenobi were one. That still bugs me. I can't get behind ANH Kenobi's view of the Republic given what we saw and got in the PT. Then again, if all he meant was, beats the crap out of this Empire stuff, then, yeah ok. So it would work both ways. As it is, the PT Republic is far from something to wax nostalgic over IMO.

And Kenobi could have been older in the PT, so his remembrance in ANH could be of a time before things started to degrade quickly with the rising empire. I'm not sure I get your point about trying to get Luke to kill Vader however.

His flaws would be that like the Qui Gon character, he is not perfect, he may see the truth, but the path to it is not easy for him, he would be struggling to stay loyal to the Jedi, to the Council while also feeling that they are not acting in the best interests of the bigger picture.

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This is not the Obi-Wan I saw in the OT. Superficially, he came off as ideal . . . at least until ROTJ, when he tried to convince Luke to kill Anakin/Vader. And the Obi-Wan I also remembered from ANH painted a rosy and ideal picture of both the Jedi and the Republic. I cannot see the Obi-Wan you wanted for the PT doing this. I'm sorry, but your ideas of how Obi-Wan should have been portrayed in the PT seemed to conflict with the older Obi-Wan I remembered from the OT.

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I think Obi-Wan was looking out for Luke even then, when he states that Luke needs to be able to kill Vader-I mean, Luke could very have to. The galaxy has got to be out from under the Sith no matter what, from both in-universe and out; they're a monstrous evil that's murdering the galaxy one planet at a time. If Luke's faith in his father had turned out to be baseless-and Luke does say words to that regard after his initial attempt to sway Vader, "then my father is truly dead", so it's not just Obi-Wan; even Luke has doubts-then Luke would have needed to kill them, as horrible as that would've been.

I think Obi-Wan was looking out for Luke even then, when he states that Luke needs to be able to kill Vader-I mean, Luke could very have to. The galaxy has got to be out from under the Sith no matter what, from both in-universe and out; they're a monstrous evil that's murdering the galaxy one planet at a time. If Luke's faith in his father had turned out to be baseless-and Luke does say words to that regard after his initial attempt to sway Vader, "then my father is truly dead", so it's not just Obi-Wan; even Luke has doubts-then Luke would have needed to kill them, as horrible as that would've been.

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Indeed. Not only that but if Luke is not prepared to take down Darth Vader, under the illusion that it is Anakin Skywalker he is dealing with, then when he does fight Vader he will do so in anger. I think that aspect is shown in ROTS where we initially have Obi-Wan unwilling to deal with his brother Anakin; once he sees what he has truly become then he folds that up inside himself and prepares to "do what (he) must".

As you point out, and I have said it before, Luke has given up on Anakin by the time he is striking him down - that is why he's so angered.