This article will look at several Biblical foreshadows of the Rapture in Bible prophecy that show that God always removes His people from harm when He is preparing to supernaturally punish the unbelieving heathen world. In Part 1 of the Rapture Series, we examined the Day of The Lord, the Biblical prophecy event that starts the end times (if you have not read it, we strongly recommend it here). The Day of The Lord (also known as the Great Tribulation) is the outpouring out God’s wrath on the unbelieving world in a series of supernatural judgments in the final seven years before Armageddon and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

The Rapture, the supernatural removal of faithful believers in Jesus Christ from the Earth, occurs just as the Day of The Lord is about to begin. The Church – all true, born again believers in Jesus Christ, will be “caught up” in the air and rescued just before the wrath of God comes. By looking at Old Testament types and shadows, God’s method of saving His people before judgment becomes apparent and foreshadows timing of the Rapture of the church in the prophetic timeline.

1. Noah’s Ark and the Flood – A Preview of the Rapture

While the world suffered judgment, faithful Noah was safe in the Ark.

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that [Noah] entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24: 37-39)

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.(2 Peter 2:4-9)

The account of Noah and the flood is a foreshadow of the Rapture of the church. Jesus Christ said the world will be living just like the “days of Noah” when discussing the end times and the final years before His Second Coming. During the days before the flood, the world was carrying on with normal activities and falling into rampant sin, accelerated by the presence of the Nephilim, angelic-human hybrids who had overrun the Earth (see our article “Nephilim – Giants in The Bible” for more information). God was so dismayed at the state of humanity and its impending loss of a chance to have a fully human Savior, that the flood judgment was set to come upon the world. The world was completely unaware of this coming judgment, but Noah and his family were aware of it (thanks to God). This is the same state of the world before the Day of The Lord /Great Tribulation. The world will be carrying on as usual, deep in sinful rebellion against God, and sudden judgment will come at the opening of the 6th Seal of Revelation.

The 6th seal plus the subsequent trumpet and vial judgments paint a frightening picture of the end times. There will be devastating global earthquakes. Waters will be poisoned. Millions upon millions will die in plagues and disasters. Evil fallen angels will return to Earth and be permitted to interact with humanity and the reign of the Antichrist will begin. Life will go from being very normal to anything but! This will all be a part of God’s judgment on unbelievers or those who claim to be Christian but were not truly born again. But the true Christians will escape these judgments via the Rapture. The account of Noah’s ark is a foreshadow of God’s pattern for protecting His faithful believers.

Noah Escapes God’s Wrath

As the verse above from 2 Peter states: “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations.” “Temptations” here means “afflictions” or “intense suffering.” Noah “found grace” with God because he was one of the last true believers in God on the Earth (in addition to being 100% human and not corrupted by Nephilim). God warned Noah about the coming flood and instructed him to build the ark, so that they could be protected in the time of His wrath on the world. And just as Noah’s family were saved from the judgment of the flood poured out on the sinful world so will the faithful believers in Jesus Christ at the Rapture be removed from the Earth just before the judgments of the Day of The Lord begins.

Noah’s Entry into the Ark

Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation… 4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. 5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

Noah’s entry into the Ark was 7 days before the flood started. Verse 5 makes it clear that Noah obeyed the Lord’s instruction. In Bible prophecy, a “day” often is symbolic of a year and this verse foreshadows the raptured church being transported to Heaven, to reside in God’s dwelling for 7 years while the wrath of God is poured out on the Earth.

God’s Invitation

Notice that in verse 1 of chapter 7 it reads: “And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.” God literally invited Noah into the ark to be with Him. The language of “come…into” indicates that the God’s presence was inside the ark. This is similar to when the Apostle John was raptured to heaven at the invitation of God in the Book of Revelation: “1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither”

The Ark, a type and shadow of Heaven, is similar to the Ark of the Covenant, where God’s presence also resided: “And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony,” (Exodus 25:22). The consistent theme is the believer being invited to be in the safety of the presence of God.

The Door

An interesting aspect of the Flood account is that when Noah and his family enter the ark, it is God who shuts the door: “16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.” A heavenly door is also a symbol used in reference to the Rapture. In the verse above from Revelation, the Apostle John saw a door open in Heaven before he was raptured. Jesus, when addressing the faithful church of Philadelphia in the Book of Revelation stated:

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name…Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Revelation 3:7-10).

Jesus describes Himself as the one who opens and shuts the door. And as a reward for their faithfulness, the church of Philadelphia is promised to be protected from the ” hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” Notice the word “temptation” is used once again in reference to the wrath of the Great Tribulation. As Noah was protected from the flood that afflicted the whole world, so will believers be safe in Heaven with Jesus during the judgments of the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation. And just as God the Father shut Noah in the Ark, Jesus will shut in his faithful believers behind a door in Heaven during the wrath of God in the Great Tribulation.

2. Lot Escapes Sodom

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. – Luke 17:28-30

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished” – 2 Peter 2:6-9

Lot was a believer in God living in a wicked, sinful city. When angels came to visit Lot, all of the men and boys in the city of Sodom demanded the male angels to be given to them for sexual relations (a similar to the illicit angelic-human unions in Noah’s time). Lot was “vexed” (or upset) with the extreme sin of the city because he was a believer in God and His righteousness. The Lord was angered with Sodom and Gomorrah so much so that He was going to destroy it with fire and brimstone. But before the supernatural punishment took place, God once again warned his faithful follower of the coming judgment by sending the two angels, who appeared as men to let Lot know that he and his family would be spared:

12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: 13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. 14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. 15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. 16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Lot was removed from Sodom by supernatural means (angels personally escorted he and his family out of the city) just prior to the fire and brimstone raining down. The same pattern for the Rapture as seen with Noah emerges: 1) God prepares to pour out His judgment on the wicked. 2) He sends a warning to His faithful followers and 3) the judgment does not come until after the faithful have been safely removed.

3. The Passover

The Passover account in the book of Exodus took place as God brought His final and worst judgment against Pharaoh and the Egyptians, who were slave masters over the tribes of Israel in the book of Exodus. The Lord was going to send an angel to kill every firstborn son in the Egyptian Empire as a final punishment against the sinful, pagan Pharaoh who oppressed and enslaved God’s chosen nation. And The Lord, in commanding Moses, made sure to provide specific instructions for a sacrifice of a lamb so that the Israelites would be protected when the punishment was poured out:

And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the [basin], and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the [basin]; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning. For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. (Exodus 12:22-23)

The pattern and typology of the Rapture is present. The believers are warned by God that a judgment is coming and they are specifically spared the judgment. God commanded the Israelites to put the blood on their doorposts and stay behind their doors and not to come out. Just as it was with Noah and with the Apostle John a door was symbolic of being kept safe during a time of judgment. And as it will be with the Rapture, the believers are saved, suffering no harm, while the unbelievers suffer God’s wrath.

4. Moses Speaking to God on Mt. Sinai

God descended from Heaven just as Jesus will at the Rapture.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, 11And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up. (Exodus 19:9-17)

In this amazing account from the book of Exodus, The Lord literally descends to Earth to speak to Moses and the 12 tribes of Israel. Notice the parallels to the Rapture description from Bible prophecy. God Himself descended from Heaven in a cloud, just as the 1 Thessalonians states that Jesus Himself will descend from Heaven in a cloud. The people are told in advance that they will gather together to meet The Lord, just as the raptured church will be gathered to meet Jesus in the clouds (also note that Moses is “called up” to meet God in the cloud). They also must prepare for the Lord’s arrival by cleaning their clothes. Jesus, in the Book of Revelation praises the church of Sardis for the few believers left in it who: “have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment“ (Revelation 3:4-5). Clean garments are symbolic of having the righteousness of Christ that all true born again Christian receive.

Another interesting parallel is that God’s voice is described as a trumpet. 1 Thessalonians 4 describes the Rapture: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God..” Contrary to popular interpretations, it is this author’s belief that the “trump of God” is not a physical or heavenly instrument. It is God’s voice. This passage above from Exodus 19 links God speaking and the sound of the trumpet. In the Septuagint salpiggo is the Geek word for ‘trumpet’. A similar connection is made when the Apostle John is raptured to Heaven in Revelation 4: “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” In this verse John is hearing the voice of Jesus, resurrected and sitting on His throne in heaven. And Jesus’ voice is described as a trumpet with the same Greek word (salpiggo) used for God’s voice in Exodus. So the descent of God Himself, the sound of the “trump of God” and the gathering of the believers provide another foreshadow of the future Rapture.

5. The Consecration of The Temple Priesthood
Leviticus Chapter 8 details the consecration of Aaron and his sons, who were selected by God to be High Priests of the nation of Israel. There were sacrifices done and a ritual cleansing to prepare them for their ministry all done by instruction of God. The nation gathered at the tabernacle (God’s dwelling on Earth) and Aaron and his sons were told: “And ye shall not go out of the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in seven days, until the days of your consecration be at an end: for seven days shall he consecrate you… 35Therefore shall ye abide at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation day and night seven days, and keep the charge of the LORD, that ye die not: for so I am commanded.” There are foreshadows in this passage as well. The Israelites gathering at the tabernacle for the 7 days the priests are inside. The Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5 calls the Rapture “our gathering” to Jesus Christ. Hebrews chapters 7 and 8 describe Jesus as the High Priest of Christian believers and that the tabernacle was patterned on what takes place in Heaven. At the Rapture, the Church will be in Heaven, God’s House, before our High Priest, Jesus Christ. The passage also details instructions to stay behind a shut door for “seven days.”

6. Rahab

The Book of Joshua tells provides the account of Rahab, a gentile woman running a house of prostitution in Jericho, a pagan city that was going to be attacked by the Israelites. God was going to provide a supernatural victory against the city of Jehrico and destroy it. Rahab, in fear of God and belief in His power, helped hide two Israelites spies who were scouting the city before the battle. Joshua, the leader of the Israelites, (who we showed in an earlier article is a foreshadow of Jesus Christ and that the Book of Joshua parallels with the book of Revelation), recognized Rahab’s faith and the service she did, risking her own life to protect the Israelite spies all out of belief in the true God of the Bible. Before the attack Joshua gave a stern command once the spies returned:

But Joshua had said unto the two men that had spied out the country, Go into the harlot’s house, and bring out thence the woman, and all that she hath, as ye sware unto her. And the young men that were spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brethren, and all that she had; and they brought out all her kindred, and left them without the camp of Israel. And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.(Joshua 6:22-24).

Rahab, a faithful believer in God living in a wicked, pagan city was saved and brought out of the city just before God unleashed His wrath and it was burned to the ground, destroyed and cursed. Again we see the same prophetic patterns for the Rapture: the faithful are warned of the coming wrath of God, they are then removed without suffering any harm and then the wrath of God comes down on the unbelievers.

7. God’s Own Prophecy

Isaiah 26 contains a not-often used prophecy about the Rapture:

Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD. We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. (Isaiah 26:17-21)

Notice the first two verse reference “birth pangs” and the birthing process. This is the same language used in Matthew 24 to describe the start of the end times (and in Part 1 of this series we explain the symbolic meaning of “birth pangs” in detail). Verses 19 above prophesies that the “dead men shall live” and “arise”, indicating that there will be a resurrection. This matches the description of the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, which states that the “dead in Christ rise first.” Isaiah 26:19 even says “together with my dead body” referencing the dead body of God rising from the dead (which was fulfilled at the resurrection of Jesus Christ — who is the “firstfruits” of all raptured saints). The dead believers in Christ will indeed be translated (given new, Heavenly bodies) and Raptured to Heaven to be with Jesus.

Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

In verse 20 we see instructions to those who are living and told to “enter thou into thy chambers” and “shut thy doors.” Again the symbolism of the Rapture is present in the bridal chamber, the door being shut and remaining safely inside until God’s “indignation” is finished. Revelation 14:10, in discussing God’s end time wrath on those who worship the Antichrist as: “the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation.” The “indignation” from the Isaiah 26 verse is clearly a reference to the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation. And the implication is that while God is punishing sinners and those who have rejected Him, faithful believers in Jesus Christ will be shut away safely in Heaven until the indignation is done.

For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Verse 21 lines up with our description of the Day of The Lord as God punishes the unbelieving, sinful world that has rejected Him and the Gospel of Jesus Christ time and time again, in favor of following sin and the deceptions of the Antichrist. This will be the Day of the Lord or Great Tribulation and once again, believers are forewarned, removed and hidden safely before the wrath of God comes on the unbelieving.

Conclusion
The Rapture will be God’s safe removal of His faithful believers before His unleashes His wrath on the sinful, God-rejecting world. Through types and shadows, the Bible demonstrates God’s pattern for rescuing His faithful. In each instance, God warns faithful believers of the coming judgment, they prepare and watch for its arrival and are completely spared and removed from all harm before the judgment of God comes. The Apostle Paul, writing to the Thessalonian church about the end times Day of The Lord judgments said: “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” The true born again believers in Jesus Christ will not be caught off guard by the Day of The Lord, but will escape safely at the Rapture, meeting Jesus in the clouds and staying in The Father’s house for 7 years until Gods wrath is poured out on the sinful world.

“And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” — Jesus Christ, Luke 21:35-36.

Reader Interactions

Comments

ok, let me start things off by saying I am a Dr. completed my theology studies and moved on to other firlds but I am quite versed in the “word” and I am and forever will be an Atheist. First things first, The article… This is a point of view or an “I believe ” article, meaning it is irrefutable as it is merely the opinion of the writer, who quotes texts that are themselves under suspicion of being false as his proof. it’s easy to prove he bible is real if you use the bible as your source of info. That being said the rapture among high ranking church officials and scholars is regarded as follows, 1,000 was the number of an Israeli legion, the result of multiplying 10x10x10, a perfect cube, something whole, multiplied by 144, or 12×12, simbolic of the the
faithful remnant of the old and new Israel…. not an actual numbered event. However, this is not a discution on biblical interpretation, as an article it shows incredible imagination and great interpretation skills, (only the interpretation is to fit certain beliefs) Also remember, this book was allegedly writen by an elderly man alone on exile on an island…Going coocoo if you ask me. Cheerio!

You won’t be an atheist forever. Forever is only for believers, non-believers will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire! Sorry to disappoint you. A moment after your last breath, when your doctor prounces you dead, you will know that you screwd up big time!

Wow, you are very quick to pass judgement! I sell the gospel of I don’t know, That’s because nobody knows. That is except you and a few select others here. You don’t know me, my life, my beliefs or my actions,… yet you are certain of my demise in the lake of fire. I could post forever on how mistaken you are even if there was a god, but I don’t judge. Mighty christian of you sir!

Dr. O,
It is just this simple, just like you believe there isn’t a one and only God, we believe there is. And that he will be here very, very soon to rapture us up. Believe or not believe, if you are a non believer then go about your business and hopefully one of these days you will see the light of our precious Jesus.

Dr O, I would be glad to send you a copy of a book about a 4 year old boy who went to heaven and returned, he had no agenda!
As for “You don’t know me, my life, my beliefs or my actions,” you also said “I am quite versed in the “word” and I am and forever will be an Atheist.” So yep, I’m assumin’ you’re not a Christian.
There have also been numerous (atheistic and intelligent) people who have said the same things you said, then went out to PROVE IT! But you should not do that, most of them are now preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I will be praying for you, sir.
(As always, I expect this to infuriate all atheists and send rants and name calling my way. I’ll listen.)

The story you refer to was a proven to be hoax and only the gullible believe such things.By the way atheist do not try to prove anything. We look for evidence. Your contradictory scriptures are in no way evidence. By the way look up the “Clergy Project” and you will discover preachers who have left religion and are now free from all the silly dogma.

Doctor,
You said yourself you are an atheist and seem proud of it. You deny Christ’s gift to save your wretched soul (we all have that before Christ), and the bible makes it pretty clear what future lays ahead for you.

These people are doing you a favor- warning you. It still is not to late.

Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Confess your sins and ignorance and turn to Him for His grace and mercy…..and you too can be saved ……..from that dreaded Lake.

God tells us to judge each other, But I’m guessing you’ve never read the Bible or any of the history book that help makeup the bible. Or any of the history books left out of the bible like Enoch and Nimrod.

You are so funny Ron Old M8! 😀
In: “ou won’t be an atheist forever. Forever is only for believers, non-believers will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire! Sorry to disappoint you. A moment after your last breath, when your doctor prounces you dead, you will know that you screwd up big time!”

Trying the old scare tactic that has failed to turn atheists back to theism for hundreds of years.

No, the lake of fire is purely imaginary and since our nerves all wither and die in the ground, even if we had souls and these souls did get put in such a lake, we would not feel any heat without our nervous system intact.

You post from sheer delusion, not from any sound knowledge of anything.
It is just your own extremely naive poor perception of reality that you make your comment from.
Show us some evidence for this lake of fire.
Show us how we would be able to feel pain with the only bits that can feel pain destroyed by our own physical deaths.
Biblical scripture can never be considered evidence for anything realistic.

Aye M8,
Just so ya know. I wasn’t being mean when I said those things. My Dad, Mom and brother are atheists and the same applies to them!
To answer your questions, when you die your nervous system ceases to exist, you are physically dead, as you said. But Christians believe (as well as most people on earth) that after you die, your soul, which is the invisible part of you: your mind, will, emotions, personality, passes on. Your mind uses your brain to function in this physical realm. If you cut open a brain, you can’t see thoughts or memories, you can’t find chemicals called tanlents, knowledge, love, fear or anger, etc. Not to go into too much detail, you are more than a physical being.
Now, because we believe that Jesus died and rose on the third day, He also promised a resurrection for believers as well to new eternal bodies like His. But here is the other thing, at that time of the resurrection of believers, there will also be a resurrection of unbelievers. All the dead will be given life, your old bodies back — once again. Sounds like a zombie movie.
“I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive and you will know that I am the Lord.”Ezek.36:6
The only problem is that it won’t be a good thing because you will be resurrected during a time a Great Tribulation, destruction and experience the wrath of God, Who will cast you into the Lake of Fire. Now, you see how you would feel fire, real fire as in a super volcanic eruption creates a giant lava lake. It states that at least 1/3 of the planet will be on fire. This I believe is hell on earth. I wrote a book about it: “Hell … If I Know”. It goes into the nature of hell, much different than traditional Christianity that claims eternal punishment. No, I believe it will be quick as a piece of paper burns.
That said, once you die, you will know that you screwed up.
We can see the preliminary signs that will develop into a world war in the Middle East right now! The rest may be natural castrophies as I mentioned and a worldwide earthquake. Actually you won’t have to wait until you die, you’ll experience this and you’ll know. That will be the time to repent, which simply means, turn to God and ask for forgiveness.

Hopefully before your last breath Dr O-Jesus will show up and show you he is real because he loves you and paid a great price to save you from Hell. I decree and declare that you will not miss your destiny and will be a mighty man of God and i nullify the power of the enemy in your life. Love and blessings in Jesus Name

might I remind everyone, no one knows who will be saved, and at that remark, I will also day, when the Lord comes for His children, then and only then will you be spiritually born again, right now we are accepting saved by grace, and of the water, repenting and keeping the holy Spirit the nbest we can by the word. I am speaking reality,ok facts. This is a spiritual life we lead whether the atheist believes it or not, God said EVERY KNEE SHALL bow and CONFESS HE IS LORD! No exceptions. The lake of fire will purge your humanistic ways and all that will be left is your spirit, now if you flat refuse after being faced with the Word, you will burn up! Charity is everything, charity of giving of yourself. simple, that’s just my two cents

Hi Tom Ol’ M8!
I’m not totally an atheist, I still believe in the word of Jesus, though I’m slowly becoming agnostic.
It’s the rubbish that fellow Christians continually post on websites like this that make me ashamed to be called a Christian. Full of false conspiracy theories and garbage like pop artists channelling the Nephilim, which truthfully, don’t exist and never did.

I have many atheist friends though, who I once argued with, but now I’m beginning to see why they are atheists, this site validates their move from theism to atheism.
It was an atheist that introduced me to this site, because he is a stand-up comedian and many of his jokes are based on the stupidity in the messages and dumb concepts exposed on this website.
He stated that if Christianity died or sites full of stupidity like this one closed, he’d lose 90% of his funniest material.
He relies on blokes like yourself to provide him with very funny material for his shows.

This is why atheists often visit and sometimes antagonize Christians on this site.
It’s just for amusement and laughs, their own, and in the case of my m8, his audience!

I know that you posted this a few months back, but I would like to add my two cents to your comment.

I don’t think that you can judge a world view based on the ignorant, cruel, or just plain stupid things that the people who hold to that world view say. I think you should judge a world view by what it teaches. For instance, does it best explain how the world came to be, the human heart, morality, and how we should approach the life?

There are many “athiests”, so called, that have strange views, conspiracy theories, and apocalyptic predictions. I suspect the reason that your comedian friend doesn’t make jokes about them is that he would be ridiculing himself.

It has been my experience that you can’t argue someone into believing the truth about God, it is best to just pray for them and love them.

I’m not sure why you would start becoming agnostic, you state that you believe in the teachings of Jesus, do you also believe what he said about himself? That he claimed to be the bread of life, that he was one with the father in heaven, that he is the light of the world, that he is the only Son of God?

Jesus said, “come unto me and I will give you rest for my yoke is easy and my burden is light”, he also said “my sheep know my voice, I know them, and they follow me”, I encourage you that when you start to doubt, focus on who Jesus is and the hope we have in him.

Hey, ‘Daktah’, why don’t you tell us about and which infiltrated, leftwing, God-hating, Satanic, anti-christian school of ‘theology’ you went to? Tell us about the ‘christian’ professors you had. Tell us how they are sure they are right and the 2000 year old church has it wrong. Give us the proof.

By the way, the ultimate writer of the Bible is God, the Holy Spirit. Jesus told his disciples that after He left that the Holy Spirit would bring to remembrance all of the things He told them.

@Richasher777
Typical thumper. I am not a homosexual, but I would be proud to be, as I am proud of those who are only to be bashed. your ignorance speaks for itself, you know I have nothing against the fake character named jesus, its his followers that piss me off.

why do atheist bother to come onto these websites if there is no god then why bother. the reason is because god makes them angry. This in itself is a contradiction in terms because they claim he doesnt exist so why just not care like most people (most say they believe in something) but the atheists are obsessed with religion and in particular Christianity. THE LADY DOTH PROTEST TO MUCH. These people Hate god and its sad. they attack Christians out of pure hatred otherwise there is no other reason why they would behave such a way. To be passionate the way they are you have to have strong feelings. to have strong feelings you have to believe. otherwise there is no point. THESE COWARDS MAKE ME SICK. WHY NOT JUST COME OUT AND ADMIT THEIR HATRED OF GOD HIDING BEHIND ATHEISM LIKE THAT CRETINOUS LIAR HAWKINS WHO SAYS HE IS NOT SURE IF GOD EXISTS THEN CLAIMS TO BE AN ATHEIST THEY ARE LIARS AND COWARDS.

Ok, first of all I already explained why I come to this site (see above) I like to educate myself in all things, religion being one of them, see, to criticize something without understanding it (as you do with atheists) is plain ignorance. I came here to read just like you, I did not find the information to be of good quality which the site moderator as a good person he obviously is can accept as my opinion, (thank you for that Beginning and End). Second I did not attack anyone, on the contrary, I was insulted, judged and more, I was called a homosexual because I’m an atheist (I have no idea what one thing has to do with the other) and my beliefs were not respected so I lashed back. You sir call me a liar and a coward, why are you so mad? Did you know that part of being a good Christian is being accepting and not judging others? You should mind your manners, I have been completely professional here. Last, I tell you, you have to learn to learn… Atheist do not hate god, we can’t hate something that does not exist (this is my belief, not trying to recruit here) Why do you put us all into one group? lets see, if I did that I would say that all Christians are idiots, like the group that carries signs at soldier funerals saying, “thank god for dead and maimed soldiers”, “God hates america” etc. That would not be fair. I’m a war veteran, and I take serious offense by that. I do not attack unless I am attacked first and you love to do that, Next time you call somebody a coward, make sure they haven’t lost a limb to save a life while fighting for their country first.

Yfes Dr O!, I understand you completely! I believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ, though I also studied theology (non-realistic thinking) for a short time and am currently studying philosophy (the more realistic thinking subject) and with an extremely good knowledge of science, archaeology and geology. I know full well that the Nephilim conspiracy theories promoted by junk sites such as this are just that, Absolute Junk! Though some here enjoy their fill of junk thinking. I won’t deny them of that, they probably read the junk thinkers rags like “Nexus” when they cannot get junk sites like this. Since Noah’s flood never occurred in reality, the Nephilim saga never occurred. Thus the entire story is proven to be junk. Though theologians will one day declare Noah’s Flood as being purely Metaphorical (like Adam’s rib metaphor), as they always do with Biblical sections proven wrong by science. Though since a metaphorical flood kills nobody, the Nephilim still cannot exist. Their story is junk, no matter which way they paint it.
Only in Jesus we Trust!

I’m sorry but i couldn’t ignore your comments Dr.O, therefore i must reply. To start i would you like to make you understand that what you studied in school was also written by “man”. It’s great that you’re a Doctor but a person that has real faith knows that anything is possible with God. This is one of the reasons why science and God can never see eye to eye. Atheists want an explanation to everything. I forgot the verses but i believe it’s on matthew; jesus tells his disciples that you must be like children. Stop trying to find the answer to everything and let God lead you with your eyes closed. Everything they teach you in school was written by mortals, but God’s words and prophecies havent changed one bit since creation. We witness these prophecies in our daily lives. I pray that the holy spirit visits you so you can find true meaning to life; The Father, the sone and The Holy spirit ( Not those books they feed you to deceive you and corrupt your minds). You’re just mislead and deceived by Satan’s lies.

B.t.w. i totally agree with williamgoodnight; It’s the fear of the most holy that normally makes atheist attack believers. Whether they’re aware of it or not.

Hope… your comment makes my point, you try to quote the scriptures yet you don’t know them of understand their meaning. 1) Mathew 18:3 …,Verily I say unto thee, except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. …Now the only reference to vision here is on 18:9. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee: it is better to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell fire. The other reference to blindly following in mathew is about NOT following blindly those religious leaders who are blind themselves. See, I know my scriptures. Atheists don’t want an explanation for everything, we seek knowledge, even from the scripture, we simply view it as a book written by “men” altered and adulterated through time. Did you know that no one that wrote about jesus ever met him? even paul . Did you know that the gospels are anonymous books who were assigned authors later (hence the third person title ie. the gospel ACCORDING TO …) Lastly, those books you say corrupted my mind I read while studying to become a priest (that’s why my studies were in theology and divinity) I can’t speak for all atheists, but I do not “attack” out of fear, if I lash out is in self defense. I am quite at peace with my beliefs and have no problem accepting yours, so technically I am acting like a christian and you and the others who so profusely have insulted me , are acting like scared ignorants who don’t even know their own religion, faith or beliefs yet want to pass judgement on mine as if they knew what they were talking about. I am making an offer here: I am willing to write an article explaining the point of view of an atheist on religion and the scriptures very respectfuly if Beginning and End is willing to post it, Just as I read articles about faith, you can at least try to understand where we’re coming from, this does not speak less of your faith, it shows that you as a person are leaving the judging to he whom you believe in. And a quick quote for you ” Evolution is not a matter for debate, it is an undeniable fact” …” we must reconcile the fact that scripture in some part is guilty of lack of historical fact” Pope John Paul II

You are mistaken. Paul met Jesus in a vision on the road to Damascus where he was headed to murder Christians, before he was converted. After that, he tell us that Jesus spoke to him numerous times telling him what to write in his letters to the various churches.

Matthew was a disciple, so he knew Hiim face face. James the writer of that book knew Him. John was one of His disciples.

Suddenly, atheists come along and make the false assertion that ‘none of the writers’ knew Him. How is it that 2000 yrs later you make this claim, but the Church has been around for 2000 years and says otherwise?

By the way, Jesus is alive. And He is God. He has appeared to me personally and I have spoken to Him. Case closed. It is all true. The Bible is true and it is His word entirely.

Wow, I can’t believe I hadn’t seen this one!. So if visions count as meeting someone…I met puff the magic dragon while dropping acid in high school…. Does that count? I believe Joseph smith also met him then…Are you a Mormon? if not, why? he also claims he met several prophets including Jesus.

La Brea Tar Pits – faith is something that has operates without evidence. However that does not mean evidence does not exist. Just ask God and if you really want to know the truth, sooner or later He reveals it. Prove Him whether by faith or by evidence.

Not once in human history can we find evidence of anything that even comes close to possibly looking like it could suggest proving a god revealing him or herself… and by faith looks exactly like schizophrenia to me, you know, a voice in your head that no one else can hear… someone might need medication! But that’s just me, I like reality. You go on and believe all that crazy stuff if you want to!

That’s funny, bcause millions have heard that same voice. That voice is the Holy Spirit. You neither know Him or understand Him. Nor do you understand anything about the word of God, for it is spiritual discerned. And since you have not the Spirit, you have no discernment. That fact is, Jesus said nearly 2000 years ago, that, because people hate Him, His followers would be hated also.
Jesus said He is the Light, and those who believe in Him will never walk in darkeness. “And this is the judgment, that light has come into the world. But men loved darkness rather than light, because their works are evil; for everyone who does evil hates the light and refuses to come into the light for fear their deeds will be exposed.”
You my friend, are in darkness, as is your comedian friend. Jesus may have mentioned both of you in the Bible. “If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Paul mentioned you also, when he said that “that which is know about God is evident, fro God has made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what He has made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish hearts were darkened (same darkness mentioned by Jesus). Professing themselves to be wise (doctor?) they became fools…”
As you say, we may not know you, or anything about you, but God knows you. He knows the anger and hatred in your heart that you have toward Him.
Jesus died for you, but like the mockers at His trial and crucifixion, you spit on Him and hurl insults at Him. Do you think you will escape the wrath of God on judgement day, for what you have said and done?

That is true, that millions of people hear voices telling them all sorts of things. However, this Voice is telling millions one thing, the same thing…that salvation is found in no other name but Jesus… buddy.

You are not here to engage in honest debate. You are here to present the false gospel of atheism and undermine the faith of those who believe in Jesus the Christ. If a pope or anyone else makes a statement undermining the Bible or Jesus the Christ, let him be anathema. They would be false teachers if they say that evolution is true or the Bible is in any way, not. Also, it is interesting to note that the Pope you quote has been seen in hellfire by the few living persons allowed visions of hell. I would not trust anything that Pope said. He was also a worshipper of Mary and exhalted her over Christ. So, don’t try to undermine Christianity by citing anything that man said. He is not a spokesman for Jesus Christ.

Again so true Dr. O! Yes Pope John Paul II did declare that Evolution is fact.
John Paul is entirely correct, we work here and live by the fact of Evolution every single day.
Though the Theory of Evolution will always remain a Theory! No theories ever become facts.
Many reading this site are extremely naive of everything to do with reality, especially science.
They (including their dumb peers (pastors/ministers)) make absolutely dumb statements like Evolution is just a Theory. They are entirely wrong, aye M8!
The “Theory of Evolution” will always be the “Theory of Evolution”, yes, but Theories are to explain Facts. So the “Theory of Evolution” is just the explanation for the “Fact of Evolution”, which also exists.
The fellow Christians on this site that know anything more than tenth year science would be less than the fingers on one hand. The majority of them are pitifully dumb!

“…we work by the fact of evolution everyday?”
You are confusing evolution with science. For something to be science, it must be observable and repeatable. What we see in nature is adaptation, or microevolution,mor changes WITHIN species. Evolutionists like to point out Darwin’s finches as “proof” for evolution. Has it escaped their attention that they are still ALL finches. They have different shapes and sizes of beaks, similar to the way people have different sahpes and sizes of noses. There is no evidence that evolution has ever occured. Can you give an example of one species evolving into another? Since no scientist ever has, I doubt that you can.

Unfortunately all the teachings and opinions of others will drive you to the point where logically nothing makes sense. By getting to the point where you trust in Jesus Christ alone and seek to develop a personal relationship with your Saviour, only then you will get to the point where you can experience God personally and only this will convince you that the truth is Jesus Christ. This might sound like a coo-coo scenario but this is the truth. In live there is 10% of things in your live you cant change or control but the other 90% is in your hands. You can theoretically try to convince yourself or you can seek a personal relationship with God and let the greatness of the Lord convince you about the truth. I do pray that God will open the eyes of you heart. Blessings!

Sorry Hope,
I couldn’t leave with out making a comment regarding your comment. to Dr. O!

I happen to know many, many atheists, I work with several and they have no fear, nor argue or attack religion. I’ve been a Christian for many years and they never even spoke to me about my religion, they just don’t care.

It’s only around 2% of atheists that bother to confront religious views of others.
The rest simply ignore religion and God concepts altogether.
They simply go about their daily lives without a single thought about God(s) or religious concepts.

My best friend is an atheist who visits these sites for comedy material for his shows.
He attacks religion in public for comedy value, because it gets the more laughs from his audience than any other subject. Seconded only by politics.
Yet, he rarely if ever posts or attacks believers on the sites he visits.

No, WilliamGoodnight is entirely stupid and wrong, because atheists are not in any delusion of fear of any spiritual existence, they are just sick of having to put up with all the rubbish that they get from Christianity in both the media, street preachers, door knockers and public gatherings.

I used to argue with my friend, but now that he has shown me sites like this one and exposed concepts that even make me ashamed at having declared myself a Christian, I’m now considering agnosticism, since I feel there may be a God, but, I’m now becoming absolutely certain that it is not the Christian God, nor Abraham’s God that could exist.
I’ll probably always be agnostic due to this feeling, but my studies into archaeology, anthropology and philosophy have destroyed any chance of my considering there being any validity in the Old Testament scripture. Also such studies have destroyed much of the New Testament.
It’s this lack of verification for scriptures that makes theists become atheists.

It’s this absolute lack of verification and a lot of absolute rubbish in Biblical scripture that removes any fear in atheists that there may be any truth in the Bible.

Thus atheists have no fear of theism, especially Bible based theism.

I still beieve there may be a God, only it’s likely far different to what is described in the Bible.
The Bible is truly the work of Man, not God, the Old Testament is proof of that.
This is why atheists don’t fear the Bible, because they are confident that they know full well it simply cannot possibly be true.

Sir, you are deserving of my fully respectful and uncorrupted response. I also do a show, on youtube, and come here to instigate arguments (sometimes I dive off the deep end just to get a reply), but in all seriousness, I could care less about religion, god or anything related. I appreciate your comment and respect your views (and everyone else’s for that matter), I just try to get a laugh every now and then since people take this so seriously. Good day to you sir, and god bless (sorry, couldn’t help myself)

Hi B&E,
This must be a new rule since I believe I’ve been called a homosexual, an ignorant A**, and Idiot, and quite the variety of personal attacks, to include quite the repertoire of atheist bashing. Hope you moderate both sides of the argument, or is it OK for the believers to say what they want but not the logic infused people. Like I said last night in a comment, I come here to learn how far gone some people are and to get material for comedic value. Censor me if you wish… But don’t forget your flock does quite a bit of attacking good sir, even when I’m actually on your side of the argument, clearly only because I don’t believe in the same thing they do. We call that blind stupidity…But I guess that will be considered name calling. happy trails 3:)

I do censor on both sides and actually received an email from someone apologizing for attacking you.

And I am glad you are back as you continue to wrestle with your atheism against the knowledge and love of God that myself and others on this site have. All because of our faith. I’m praying for you and your salvation.

You ridicule us because our faith is not empirically proven but neither is love, which you do believe in. Do you remember that discussion? When you compared loving a wife to loving a hamburger? I wonder if you still feel that way?

I have no recollection, but you are no liar when it comes to these threads and that does sound like something I would say, so, yes…still feel the same. I have to admit I do miss coming here. I won’t get into the “Love can actually be measured clinically” discussion, but I will say, I don’t ridicule anyone because of their beliefs, I make fun of the ridiculous things people say to defend their beliefs. Big difference. Regardless, I look forward to another round of pointless arguing I’m sure will come… I’ll finally blow a gasket and disappear for another while. Good to hear from you again

I will answer you shortly and concisely.
What if I interacted with you for the sole purpose of “studying” you-like a zoo animal, debunking your way of life, and personally mocking you in “light comedic sketch.” Would you not take offense?
Yes, you may not have used volatile language, but your intentions proved to be relatively cruel, and dare I say, demeaning and inflammatory to those you do not know. You have been judgmental, and I think it is correct for me to point this out.
I am not happy with my brothers and sisters in Christ behaving this way, yet we are all judgmental and we all need to understand that.
However, it behooves me to sit back and watch someone essentially state that Christians are “crazy, amusing for ‘study’, unsympathetic for lashing out against my “studying” of human beings with actual lives.” Do not paint yourself out as a pacifist, with beautifully peaceful language, and non inflammatory intentions. It does not cut it. I am actually very thankful for your service as a veteran, you have done a beautiful, brave, and courageous work. I commend you and thank you, and thats also why I feel it is fair for me to be frank.
Yet, Did you read how cold you sound Dr. Oz?
Take a look at how it sounds again, its hurtful. You are reducing these people to mocking them.
Also, brothers and sisters should not be judging Dr. Oz. He is right there, that is none of your business. We do not know him, his intentions, or anything about him. Let us just be thankful for every ounce we have and love others, interfere with.
On a research front-I wont try to convince you of anything. It is not mine to do. If you are intrigued by the bible or by God, you are well and capable of researching from a different stance yourself. However, on a last note-if one goes into ‘listening, observing’ with a closed mind-they are not really gaining new knowledge.

With all due respect, no one in this life, but for divine revelation, can say for certain that a Pope or anyone else went to a particular place. For all we know, that Pope did many wonderful things and so his destiny is possibly not as stated. Those types of determinations are best left in the hands of God. Apologies to all are extended. Maranatha.

Hello Beginning and End. This is a good article although I don’t really consider the Rapture an ‘escape.’ The Tribulation was never meant for the church to begin with. The Tribulation is what Israel must go through which will result in their repentance.

I view the Rapture in two ways:

1.) The general resurrection of the church (those who are dead and those who remain on earth)

2.) The end of the Church-Age. And I don’t necessarily believe you can tie the rapture to a specific point on a timeline. Meaning the rapture in all reality could take place years before the actual 7 year Tribulation.

Thanks for your comment. And I use the term escape because of the use of the word from the Bible (i.e., Jesus saying ” Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,” (Luke 21:36). But I do agree that the Great Tribulation is not for the church. As for your two points:

1) I agree. The Rapture is the resurrection of the church.

2) Yes it is the end of the church age. I agree once again. And I definitely do not presume to know the timing of the Rapture down to days or years, but I do think it will precede the Great Tribulation based on the God’s patter throughout scripture. Part 3 of the Rapture Series will discuss the timing of the Rapture and clear that up more. God bless.

Yea I know that is where you get the word ‘escape’ from. Lots of people do the exact same thing, but actually this verse in Luke has nothing to do with the rapture or the church at all.

This verse is a different version of the Olivet Discourse also found in Matthew and it is specifically addressed to Israel not the church.

Basically Christ’s farewell address to Israel is recorded in the Olivet Discourse and Christ’s farewell address to the church (John 16:12-13) is found in the Upper Room Discourse (John 13-17).

It is important to separate the two and understand when Scripture addressed towards Israel and when it is towards the church. The reason I mention it is because the verse you mentioned is where people come up with the partial rapture which confuses everything and gets into works verse grace through faith.

Fair point, but there are other verses that I think support the idea of escape. 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 for example: “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when THEY shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY shall not escape. ” The context of the chapter is the Day of The Lord. And the “they” is the unbelieving world. Paul is saying that “we” (believers) will escape the destruction of the Day of The Lord. And remember, at the end of the previous chapter, Paul is describing the Rapture. So in context he is reassuring the Thessalonian church that they will be raptured and thus not suffer through the Day of The Lord. God bless.

Hi.
you, know, all through the old testament, God’s own, when they obeyed and walked in the ways commanded by God, were spared judgement but when they turned from God and sinned there was judgement of many sorts from the direct hand of God.
As christians we go through testing, trials, and tribulations through the works of the enemy towards us and through unbelievers / man, ie persecution, these trials and tribulations are a testing ground for us, to, refine us if you like, just as gold is refined to its purest state.
The tribulation ( 7 years ) is the actual wrath of God on a perverse, sinful world.
Enoch was raptured, taken, caught away, snatched,…whatever term you like ?, in any case he was… and then was no more for God took him….and why ?…because he walked and talked with God. Something all born again believers are called to do.
Now in 2nd Thessalonians Paul talks about the antichrist whom can not be revealed until 2 things happen,…1st the falling away ( apostacy ) and 2nd that He whom restraineth is taken out of the way….hmmmm…in my King Jame’s bible the mention of this Restrainer is given a capital H when refering to Him/He in the past tense…now , only God and Jesus are the Other two whom are given this honour when using their name and when referring to them in past and present tense.
Jesus gave us the Comforter and Jesus said That He would never leave us or forsake us, so why would the Holy spirit be taken from us after faithfully obeying and following Christ, living each day as He has called us to do, to leave us, forsake us when Jesus said He never would.
After all of that ….God/ Jesus does not punnish,… and believe me the tribulation is going to be THE WORST sort of wrath, horror, evil ever witnessed !!, so Jesus is not going to punnish by putting his beloved, faithful bride through such punishment when she has been faithful and obedient to the Father as Christs commands.Would you punish your beloved little one for doing faithfully what you asked of him/her ?.You repremand them, yes when they disobey but you reward them when they obey.
There are many references in the bible regarding the bride of Christ , true, spirit filled believers, (not luke warm or cold christians),…whom God will keep from the hour of trial,..wrath that is to come upon the world to test those whom dwell in the earth.
Why do you think Jesus say’s to keep watch and stay awake, to look for His coming because we do not know what hour our Lord commeth ?If He were to come at the end of the tribulation, we’d know exactly when to expect Him. He will come at the end but He will come with His saints, not to rapture us,catch us away, snatch us.This special mystery, as it is called will happen when we least expect it…imminently, that’s why we are told to keep watch, to stay awake, not to slumber.
With this in mind it gives the true believer, hope and the desire to wait with expectancy for their Lord, keeping themselves pure from the corrupt , sinful world around them walking in the spirit and in obedience….AMEN.

“There are many references in the bible regarding the bride of Christ , true, spirit filled believers, (not luke warm or cold christians),…whom God will keep from the hour of trial,..wrath that is to come upon the world to test those whom dwell in the earth.
Why do you think Jesus say’s to keep watch and stay awake, to look for His coming because we do not know what hour our Lord commeth ?If He were to come at the end of the tribulation, we’d know exactly when to expect Him. He will come at the end but He will come with His saints, not to rapture us,catch us away, snatch us.This special mystery, as it is called will happen when we least expect it…imminently, that’s why we are told to keep watch, to stay awake, not to slumber.”

What about the parable of the 5 Wise VIrgins and the 5 Foolish VIrgins? The Bible says clearly that they all “slept and slumbered.” But 5 were admitted into the wedding chamber and 5 were told “I don’t know you” and got a door in the face. Also what about the verse in Daniel (Chpt 11 I think but not looking it up right now), that says during the time of the end (Tribulation) the “wise will teach wisdom and truth” to many before the Antichrist kills them. Wording is off but it’s along those lines. Who are these “wise ones” who are not taken in the Rapture? I do believe there will be a rapture of a select group (aka “Philidadelphian” believers and “wise virgins”) but I don’t believe every single “born again” believer or professing Christian will be raptured. And I don’t include phony 501c3 churchians in this assessment at all. I’m talking about sincere believers who follow false doctrines and are sure they are correct, etc.

I am of the Lord Jesus Christ His own, and the Heavenly Fathers child and baptized in His precious Spirit..
Your articles tell nothing scriptural about the last days before the day of the Lord?
I cannot believe that you are so blinded that you can’t see the truth when it is in the Holy Word of our Lord God!
I am ashamed of people being led by ones as you that know not the truth!
The 7 year tribulation begins with the first 3 1/2 years is man (lawless one)destruction of the world and murdering the believers of followers of Jesus Christ.
2009 there were 165,000 folowers of Jesus Christ who were killed. Many more since.
There are 4 horses he rides, these are the four seals. The 5th seal is also in the first 3 1/2 years because this is when the mark shall be placed on all without knowledge of our living Father Lord God.
This is the “Great Temptation” being offered eternal life by God(Satan) himself.
The ones who have the mark will not die when at the begining of the seventh seal the Father Gods wrath is poured from 7 bowls upon all the earth. They will be tormented and want to die but are not able.
They will be completely destroyed at the battle of Armageddon by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
The start of the 6th seal is Abbadon Hebrew Appolyon Greek ,satans incarnate son the destroyer will take control and everyone decieved and not knowing the Lord Jesus Christ will bow down to this demonic devil.His reign last about 3 and so many months before the Fathers wrath is poured out.
At the very end of the 6th seal the rapture takes place. This is at the 7th trumpet. The first trumpet begins the sixth seal.
During the 7th seal after the Holy Fathers wrath is poured upon the whole of earth “The day of the Lord will come. This is when our precious Lord Jesus Christ sets His precious feet on this earth to reclaim it for His own.
The rapture is at the sound of the 7th(last) trumpet.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rev 7:9-17 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
This is at the beginning of the sevnth seal being opened. These are the raptured ones of our Lord Jesus Christ. The angels were praising the Father and the son because they done exactly what they said they would do. “I leave to go and prepare a place for you so where I am there you may be also”
Jesus our Lord and Saviour saves us from the Fathers wrath, Jesus’s own are with Jesus, the Father begins to pour out His wrath in 7 bowls upon all the earth. We are saved from these bowls of our Fathers wrath! This happens at the opening of the seventh seal.
The rapture of the Lord Jesus own is at the end of the 6th seal at the last (7th) trump.
Another untruth is spreading fast that I am worriedly ashamed of.
The whore of Babylon is not America it has and always will be the Vatican (Roman Empire)
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
It is truly about time for the true Americans to turn these demonic demons that have invaded our Christian Nation back and forbid them by the power of the Holy Spirit to enter our land ever again.
This is what happens when the unknowing Christians think they have to be saved before anything bad happens? Look around brothers and sisters it’s here NOW!
To the Atheist or Doc o – Don’t call my Lord my Saviour My best friend My lord Jesus Christ , don’t call Him a fake.
You are a nonbeliever you are satans own.
When you speak of my Lord and His Father Lord God just say “you don’t know them”
The ones who speak of a rapture before the tribulation are not of the truth.
Jesus saves His own from the Fathers wrath.
Amen

Scripture has very little historical value, I’m a student of archaeology and know that even such things as Moses leading the slaves out of Egypt is disputed by evidence. Both archaeological evidence and anthropological evidence suggest that he may have only led a small party, but nothing like the Bible claims. Also much of the early scriptures were paraphrased and plagiarized from Egyptian, Mesapotamian and Ancient Greek religious tales.
Early Judaism was really just a mix of tales from Abraham and other religions in that era.
There’s no evidence for the fall of Jericho, that tale appears to be a lie.
The scriptures are so full of untruths and half truths it is impossible to believe much of it at all.
I believe that the teachings of Jesus were great and extremely humanistic, even though the “do unto others as you would have done unto yourself” was likely paraphrased from Confucius who stated “do not do to others as you would not like done to yourself” around 500 years earlier.
Essentially I’m a secular Christian humanist.
You can live well by the teachings of Jesus, but the rest of the Bible is almost worthless.

I hadn’t read your post before, my apologies. I admire your approach to faith and honestly I commend it. I see you are educated in subjects that are of crucial importance to the validation of scripture and are able to see the flaws within it, yet you hold faith as a personal choice, not a written mandate. Kudos for that, wish more people approached their beliefs the same way, I dislike blind faith but respect educated belief, very refreshing post.

Interesting. You are more like the devil than you imagine. He quoted scripture too, when he tried to tempt Jesus in the wilderness. So, like your father, the devil, you know scripture, but apply it wrongly apply, like he does.

Jaso wants evidence of the lies in the old testament:
For starters there’s absolutely no evidence for the existence of Moses nor the escape of Israelite slaves from Egypt, nor Abraham for that matter.

A couple of references, though reading “National Geographic” issues would also show these same findings.
Quote: “Mainstream history and archaeology now consider the Exodus never happened, and the story is an entirely fictional narrative put together between the 8th and 5th centuries BCE.[1] Christian and Jewish literalists do not accept this. ”
From: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus

Quote: “No direct archaeological evidence has been found for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the 400-plus years in Egypt, or the Israelites’ miraculous exodus from slavery. No physical trace has been found of 40 years in the Sinai wilderness, and nothing outside of the bible shows Moses existed.”
From: http://www.askwhy.co.uk/truth/350Exodus.php

Quote: “A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[22] and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as “a fruitless pursuit”.[11] A number of theories have been put forward to account for the origins of the Israelites, and despite differing details they agree on Israel’s Canaanite origins.[25] The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the “Israelite” villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.[26] There is archeological evidence of the Caananite Hyksos people moving into and out of northern Egypt, though the relation of their dates to the biblical account is debated by scholars.”
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

No evidence nor proof of the evidence nor of Moses ever existing can thus be taken that the entire story of Moses and the Exodus can be considered as a LIE!
Nothing surer!

Looks like the joker manifesting on here as Dr O has decided to abandon that moniker and assume a new, even more outrageously deluded personality calling itself a new made up name.

But, as ever, he spouts non sense concocted 2000 yrs after the fact.

He will know otherwise when Jesus returns at the Second Coming and shows just how wrong he was. But, at that point, it will be too late.

You can deduce how true Christianity is when you see the massive, increasingly militant, and vulgar efforts of the atheists directed only at attacking and ‘disproving’ Jesus, His word, and His Church. Yet, these same atheists leave the satanic religions of the world, alone. Makes sense. Why would they attack religions that agree with the atheist premise ie that Jesus is not God? Thus, in the end, we must conclude that atheism is on the same side as the satanic religions of the world, and Jesus Christ must indeed be who He said He was and is. That explains the atheists obsession with ‘proving’ only Christianity false. They will never achieve their goal, because God has the last word. And, God will win. Jesus is the Christ and He is God come in the flesh. You will see Him arriving with great glory one of these days soon.

I am me, and do not need another me to say what me says, so me myself and I are not the other self that you claim to be me, for I am me and only me. Does it bother you that more than one person knows the truth? jeez! really, you know many Christians accept these facts with no effect on their beliefs, but I guess the “ye shall not judge” part of the bible doesn’t really apply to you. Whatever, go on thinking I made another profile to make more statements… as an educated Christian nonetheless. MMM MMM MMM, no buddy, full atheist here, always will be, no need to shift gears.

It seems that your examples prove the opposite of what you claim. In most of your examples people are saved while they are surrounded by judgement. They are not saved by being taken out of the way. For example:

1) “Noah Escapes God’s Wrath” Noah was not taken away. He was saved in the middle of God pouring out judgement.

3) “The Passover” The Jews were saved right where they lived. They were not taken out of their homes in order to avoid the angel of death. The angel of death passed over them.

4) “Moses Speaking to God on Mt. Sinai” This is not judgement at all so I do not know why you include it. By the way, although there are some similarities to the Rapture, there is a big difference – God came to earth.

5) “The Consecration of The Temple Priesthood” “This is also not a judgement”

6) “Rahab” She was not saved by being taken out of Jerico. She continued to live in Jerico and was saved while judgement was executed all around her.

“7) God’s Own Prophecy” The Bible, which you quote, says, “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” This is not being saved by being taken away. It is being saved right where you live.

Your examples clearly show people being rescue right where they are. They are not rescued by being taken away. This is what posttribulationism teaches – God will protect believers during the Tribulation while God is pouring out his wrath. He will not protect people from the wrath of the anti-christ but he
will protect believers from the wrath of God. Your examples fit much better with posttribulationism that pretribulationism. The only example you gave which does have deliverance by being taken out of the way is “Lot escapes Sodom.”

1) Being taken out/staying — Biblical types and shadows are not verbatim matches. I think we all agree that the Passover lamb being sacrificed was a foreshadow of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice (hence Jesus being called “the Lamb of God.”). The lamb at Passover was killed quickly. It was not tortured, beaten and then crucified. Yet it is still a foreshadow of Jesus Christ who was tortured, beaten and crucified. Similarly, the examples I provided will not match the Rapture verbatim. it is not the same event — just a type of it. And in every example I provided, the believers indeed escaped from the punishment of God, while unbelievers suffered. (Point 5 on the consecration of the priesthood was just highlighting the aspect of gathering for the consecration of our High Priest in Heaven).

You mention Rahab — not only did Rahab not live in Jericho after the attack, no one did — “And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. ” (Joshua 6:21). Later in the same chapter we are told: “And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father’s household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day.” The Israelites did not occupy Jericho because it was a cursed city (Joshua cursed it himself). So Rahab indeed escaped out of the city just before its destruction.

2. I think one of the problems the post-tribulation rapture model runs into is this very point about being “protected” during the Great Tribulation. Revelation 13 is clear — the Antichrist will attack and wipe out Christians on Earth during his reign: “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them” We also know that Christians in the Great Tribulation will be martyred and beheaded for not taking the Mark of the Beast. So clearly, they are not being protected. The post-tribulation Rapture model cannot reconcile this and this is one of the reasons this author finds it to be flawed. I hope that makes sense. God bless.

Sorry! No Rapture to Heaven. We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, but we are not taken to Heaven. To claim that God has to take us during times of tribulation, or even during the time He pours out His wrath on the unrepentant, is to deny God the glory that he is able to protect His children.

Read all of Psalm 91 and 2 Peter 2:4-9 [For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, [ putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment] ; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard) 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment, (2 Peter 2:4-9].

Also read John 17:15 where Jesus prays to God and states: “I’m not asking you to take them out of the world, but to keep them safe from the evil one.”

It will all come out in the end. One thing is certain, I do not believe in “replacement theology” whatsoever, as you incorrectly ASSUME. The Gospel, which was preached to Abraham beforehand as we see in Galatians 3 and 4, reveals itself in Ephesians 2 that the Gentile and the commonwealth of Israel became “one new man” in Christ. There is no longer Jew or Gentile; there are not two salvation programs in the future, one for the state of Israel and one for the Christian church. You obviously have been grounded through the erroneous teachings of CI Scofield and Premillennial dispensationalism, which is (unfortunately) Christian Zionism, which could have us going back and forth and mixing apples with oranges until the Sahara Desert freezes over.

Premillennial dispensationalism yes you are correct. I believe this is the correct interpretation of biblical prophecy. I believe Paul clearly distinguishes the two in Romans 11. There are also many many other reasons why I believe in dispensationalism.

As far as Galations talking about no difference between Jew and Gentile you already know what my answer would be to that. There is no difference within this dispensation. Jews have to get saved just like the rest of us. lol

I had to butt in here, I am an atheist, but I can agree with christians quite often,… I think you just want to promote your very badly written… Can’t call them books… oh yes, garbage. I do not agree with the views and opinions of the author of this article, but his points are very well backed and organized, much more than I can say for you. You studied for 40 years for this? were you lost in a dessert that should have taken 40 days to cross? Sorry, Beginning and end gets my vote in this discussion, you are just… strange

Mr. Ortiz has been so far out of reality that he cannot understand it.
Such is theological indoctrination.
Religion deliberately indoctrinate individuals to completely destroy their ability to reason rationally.
I have a friend who was a theologian for over 30 years until he was a couple of years away from retirement, when he ventured into reading knowledge books from the public library and decided to leave his own immense library of theological books alone.
He was amazed at just how much knowledge he had been deprived of and shielded from during his theological training and stated that he would need another lifetime to catch up with the real world.
He spent his last year before retirement an atheist who regretted entirely his years of being a theologian and isolated from real knowledge and having pushed his indoctrinated concepts onto other people as if they were real, though at the time he was convinced (by his indoctrination) that they were real.
Maybe Joe Ortiz will one day realize how ridiculous his theological garbage appears to people with real knowledge and have the same regrets as my friend.

It is definitely true that Rational Thinking and Real Knowledge are the Enemies Of Theology!

My friend learned this fact too late and died a very miserable man.
Yes, Ortiz might one day get a reality injection and suffer the same.
So many books full of absolute garbage, what a waste of a brain and a life!

Your friend died a miserable man because he destroyed his entirely rational and true faith, if he ever had it, and thereby lost his salvation. Right now, in the midst of unbearable flames, he is totally convinced that Jesus is God and His word is true. But, it is too late for him. He is lost, forever….

Entirely incorrect Jason, your delusion gets in the way of fact.
Such as the fact that Paul (Saul) never met Jesus as a living person, only wrote about him from second hand information, thus his writings on Jesus lack actual witness.

This was also taught to me by my theologian friend who explained his misery at having been indoctrinated in the first place.
He wished that he hadn’t joined the church and was a free-thinker like myself, which is totally unlike yourself who has their entier worldview boxed into a theological, false framework.
You will never understand reality, your indoctrination has rendered you incapable of freedom of thought, thus you are inferior.
This is what upset my theologian friend who wished he never became a theologian and studied philosophy instead. His knowledge of the real would would have been a thousandfold what it was in his retirement.
He felt that the church stole his ability to see the real picture and understand truth.
There is no truth in theology.
Because theologians cannot think outside their two thousand year old framework, they will always remain naive of reality and truth.
He demonstrated that theology is based on lies in the Bible and thus, because of this firm basis, theology will always and forever remain a philosophy based on lies.
No truth to be found anywhere in theology.
Yes, this was what upset him the most and made him miserable.

I’m a free thinker, far superior to you naive, ignorant minds, trapped forever into theological lies.
Though I value the teachings of Jesus, I know that many of his teachings were plagiarized from those that lived hundreds of years before him.
He just packaged them together into a consistent system.
That is the reason I hold Jesus in high regard.
The spiritual side of the Bible and stupidity like Nephalims (fallen angels) just makes Christianity look dumber than dumb.
As you definitely appear to logical, knowledgeable people who view your posts.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Atheists are only another word for non-believers.
Don’t say that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,my precious best friend
does not exist .
It is only because you have not the Lord God Almighty our heavenly Father to lead you to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords Jesus Christ.

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Man has always had the choice to be saved by our Saviours Loving Grace or be damned by the Fathers wrath he pours out upon all unbelievers.
Soon you will have to die physically to receive life eternal.
This will be your only choice.

Wow, mighty strong words. Here… JESUS WAS NOT THE MESSIAH! he might have existed (Maybe) but he was simply an apocaliptic preacher of the time who as many others after him was dead wrong about his predictions. Ohhh, I said it, now what

Well IAMone2 Old M8! 😀 😀
Quoting scripture proves absolutely nothing.
Since much of the Old Testament has been brought undone by archaeological investigation and shown to be little more than mythical tales of imaginary persons and events.
Then the rest of the Bible has a fair degree of doubt as to it’s honesty

I’ve read those passages many times in my Bible study training and they really don’t mean anything tangible. Just perceptions of extremely naive individuals whose knowledge is much less than that of a current year 6 student.
To take their views seriously is to take the prophesies of a primary school student seriously.
Because most primary school students in public schools know a great deal more about the world, people, honesty and truth than Moses and all the apostles combined.

My grand daughter would likely have more truth in her statements and teachings than any of those scripture writing nongs.
I value Jesus (or those who compiled his character) teachings because they humanized Judaism. Prior to Christianity, Judaism was far from humanistic, just as Islam is today.
Jesus (or his colaborators) took Eastern philosophies (Confucian, Taoist) and combined them with Judaism to soften, modernize and bring Judaism into the 1st century.
It was the first major step towards sectarianism.

Practically, Jesus (or his party) was the first Jew to promote a form humanism.
Todays humanists do owe some small gratitude to Christianity.
Though the fact that Christianity in the ‘New Testament’ uses miracles to promote Jesus, puts some doubt on his existence as a real person.
Great people don’t need to be associated with miracles for public admiration, they are just remembered as such great people.
The likelihood that the miracles associated with Jesus occurred is extremely low, since there are no real eye witnesses accounts for any of them outside the glorified accounts in the Bible, as well as no expert witnesses to test their validity.
Thus, not a single miracle performed by Jesus can be considered in any way as valid.
He (they) just advanced Judaism into the 1st century with their teachings.
This is what I consider as a great step for human evolution.
Though Christianity is now in need of bringing up to the 22nd century, as it is no longer required any more.
The teachings of the Bible are too out-of-date, passé, etc…..
As I’ve stated, my little grand daughter knows far more about reality and truth than any writers of the Bible, possible more than most of the posters on this website, including Jason, yourself and Joe Ortiz. Probably more than all of you theology heads combined, since her head isn’t stuck in a continual cycle of regurgitating 2000 year old knowledge.

Actually, archeologiy has and is proving just the opposite of your lies. Instead, archeological studies and discoveries are proving just how completely true and accurate the Bible is. Archeology is catching up with the Bible. So, the Bible is superior to the fraudulent assertions of your everyday garden variety atheist ignoramus and more.

The wilderness deliverance is the place of safety for believers in the last days. Jesus tells us what to do in Matthew 24. Revelation 12 elaborates upon what will happen when we are fleeing from judea.

All the examples given in the article had people of faith acting upon their faith.

1) Noah had to build an arc
2) Lot had to flee Sodom
3) the Hebrews had to apply blood on the door post
4) rehab had to hide the spies and let out a scarlet thread

The same will be true in the last days. Israel will be the place of deliverance. God will make a way for his people to get there and subsequently flee when the abomination of desolation happens.

The outline for the escape is clearly defined in the scriptures.

The pre-trib rapture theory is just not scriptural. The harvest comes at the end of the age. The wheat and the tares grow together. Jesus made this plain. Paul elaborated on it when he said that the church would not be gathered togethered until the falling away came first and the man of sin was revealed. Revelation 14 gives the outline of major end time events and the last event is the harvest. 2 reapings are seen in the chapter.

I just pray that the Lord will give us light to see what’s true. The wilderness deliverance is where it is at. It’s in plain black and white letters for the generation who would see the consummation to understand. Amen.

DoUwant2go2heaven? – “The same will be true in the last days. Israel will be the place of deliverance. God will make a way for his people to get there and subsequently flee when the abomination of desolation happens.”

Greetings and God bless you. I have to once again bring up Revelation 13:7 – The Antichrist will conquer the saints: “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” Christians during the Great Tribulation are not going to escape. This verse is a fulfillment of the prophecy from Daniel 7:21 – “I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; ” Christians (who are saved after the Rapture) are going to be hunted, persecuted and killed. So the accounts of Noah and Lot escaping and being protected do not fit your rapture model. I find that the post-trib model wants to have it both ways. But it is not supported by scripture. God bless.

Accept Jesus christ as your lord and saviour. You never know how soon is too late. Trancend the world illusion on enslavement. The world denounces truth. Accepting Jesus will result in something like seeng a new colour. You will see it but will not beable to clealy explain it to anyone else. Its meant to be that way to transend any selfism within you. Currently your constructing your own path that suits your sin lifestyle. Look closely at the economy, Lust , greed , envy, sloth, pride of life, desire for knowledge, desire for power, desire for revencge,gluttony with food . Just think if you can find a truth you can take with you in any of these things. When you die your riches go to someone who will spend away your life. You will be forgotten history will repeat iteslf, the greates minds knowledge fates or is eventually plagerzed, your gooddeeds are forgotten. your teachings are forgotten or mutated, your gold is transfered back to the rullers that rule you through deception. Your grave will grow over . Trancend you ego and free yourself from the dominion of satan. Evidence follows faith. Faith does not follow evidence. Faith above reason in Jesus Christ. Read Ecclesiastes. Read corinthians.You cant trancend your own egoism by adapting a world philosophy to suit your needs. Seek the truth. Sell your cleverness and purchase bewilderment. You don’t get what you want you get what you are in christ. I promise this has been the truth for me. In Jesus christ .
Think of what you really have to lose. …your ego?
Down is up. Break the Matrix of illusion that holds your senses captive.

[I agree with Joe Ortiz above. BTW, I saw the following article while I was at my computer.]

PRETRIB RAPTURE SECRETS

How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven (He’s now there with the Father) “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. (“The Rapture Question,” by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn’t dare to even list, in its scripture index, the too-hot-to-handle Acts 3:21!) Since Jesus can’t even leave heaven before the tribulation ends (Acts 2:34,35 echo this), the rapture therefore can’t take place before the end of the trib! (The same Acts verses were also too hot for John Darby – the so-called “father of dispensationalism” – to list in the scripture index in his “Letters”!)
Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The “rest” for “all them that believe” is tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who’d be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the posttrib end of “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which is Israel’s posttrib resurrection!)
Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this “rapture” was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” [“gathering”] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!).
Other Google articles on the 182-year-old pretrib rapture view include “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Pretrib Rapture Scholar Wannabes,” “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Walvoord Melts Ice,” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” – all by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books).

THE BIBLE CLEARLY STATES THE BEAST(ANTI-CHRIST MAKES WAR ON THE SAINTS AND IS SUCCESSFUL AGAINST THEM. THE RAPTURE IF IT COMES IS AFTER THE TRIBULATION NOT DURING OR BEFORE. THE RAPTURE AND RESURRECTION HAPPENS AT THE LAST TRUMPET. we will all have to remain on earth to await jesus coming and face persecution . we are called to endure. there will be no rapture before or during the tribulation only at the last trumpet. It is beter to concentrate on enduring what is to come. BEWARE MANY FALSE PROPHETS WILL CLAIM AFTER THE FALSE RAPTURE THOSE LEFT BEHIND ARE DAMNED. THE BIBLE CLEARLY STATES WE WILL ALL GO THROUGH THE FULL TRIBULATION.

THE PEOPLE WHO SAY THERE WILL BE A RAPTURE ARE DANGEROUS BECA– USE WHAT IF THEY ARE NOT CORRECT. ITS A MODERN HERESY. HOW CAN THE BEAST MAKE WAR ON THE SAINTS AND CONQUER THEM IF THEY ALL GET RAPTURED. BEFORE THE TRIBULATION. WE ARE ALL TAKEN UP AT THE LAST TRUMPET ON THE LAST DAY. HOW CAN THAT BE IF NO CHRISTIANS ARE LEFT ON EARTH AND ARE RAPTURED UP BEFORE OR IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TRIBULATION. ITS A TERRIBLE HERESY AND HAS LITTLE BACKING IT IN SCRIPTURE

williamgoodnight:
THE PEOPLE WHO SAY THERE WILL BE A RAPTURE ARE DANGEROUS BECA– USE WHAT IF THEY ARE NOT CORRECT. ITS A MODERN HERESY. HOW CAN THE BEAST MAKE WAR ON THE SAINTS AND CONQUER THEM IFTHEY ALL GET RAPTURED. BEFORE THE TRIBULATION. WE ARE ALL TAKEN UP AT THE LAST TRUMPET ON THE LAST DAY. HOW CAN THAT BE IF NO CHRISTIANS ARE LEFT ON EARTH AND ARE RAPTURED UP BEFORE OR IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TRIBULATION. ITS A TERRIBLE HERESY AND HAS LITTLE BACKING IT IN SCRIPTURE

Hi William,

Thanks for your comments. I think there is a great deal of evidence that believers will be raptured before the Great Tribulation. But I want to respond to a couple of your points.

1. The Beast conquers saints during the Great Tribulation — Yes, I agree. Saints will be persecuted and killed during the Great Tribulation. So how does this happen if the entire church is raptured away before then? Simple, there will be people who come to believe in Jesus Christ during the Great Tribulation. These are those “saints.” We already know God will send 144,000 witnesses out into the world to preach the Gospel. The 2 witnesses of Revelation 11 will also be preaching the Gospel. Angels will be announcing the Gospel from the skies. Certainly God’s word will not return void. There will be many people who come to a saving faith in Christ and will be persecuted for it.

2. The third and final part of the Rapture series will explain the specifics on the timing of the Rapture and how it fits into Scripture. But I wanted to share a couple of verses that show that believers can escape it the Great Tribulation:

In Revelation 2, Jesus addresses the church of Thyatira. In His criticism of their practices He says:

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Notice being cast into the Great Tribulation is a punishment that can be avoided via repentance. This is the only other time Jesus uses the term “great tribulation” in the Bible aside from Matthew 24. We again see this idea of being saved out of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 3 when Jesus is addressing the church of Philadelphia.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Notice a reward is being kept from the “hour of temptation” which will be shown, is a reference to the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation. And the church of Philadelphia will not experience it.

3. The Rapture is at the last trumpet — One of the main problems this ideas has is that if that is the case, where is the raptured church? Why is it we do not see anything about the raptured church at the 7th trumpet? To just say “the rapture happens there” seems to be reading a lot into the text.

But again, thanks so much for your comments. And I hope you will continue to give your thoughts and the Beginning and End Rapture Series continues. God bless you abundantly.

Whats with all the speculating? Why don’t believers accept what Jesus Christ clearly laid out in the scriptures? Namely, the wilderness deliverance of Revelation 12 and Matthew 24:15-20.

God clearly states that a place of shelter has been prepared for those who are wise in the last days. That’s why Jesus Christ even tells us that believers must understand what they have read concerning the time of great tribulation (Matthew 24:15).

Instead of focusing in on the guaranteed place of shelter in the last days, believers in Jesus Christ are causing division and strife by arguing about something that isn’t even taught in the scriptures. This is another one of the tricks of the enemy. He wants us to divide over Unbiblical doctrine, instead of focusing in on the promises God has already laid out for the generation that will see the fulfillment of all things.

There are so many people that are deceived that it’s frightening. So many people are placing their hope in a false promise, that when it doesn’t come, will fall away from the faith because false teachers have led them astray.

The sure foundation of Jesus Christ, the Rock, has promised shelter to those who are wise in a plane called the wilderness. He even gives SPECIFIC instructions about what must be done when the abomination of desolation happens. Jesus Christ gives the WHOLE GAME PLAN to those who are watching and praying. But so many people are deceived that they can’t even see what the scriptures plainly teach.

There are 2 things that will come before the Mark of the beast is instituted.
1. The fall of Mystery Babylon
2. The wilderness Deliverance

The fall of Mystery Babylon happens at the start of the Day of the LORD. It is the sudden destruction that comes upon the whole world as a snare. That’s why God commands His people to come out of her before she is destroyed in 1 hour by the 10 kings. If you read Revelation 17 you will see that the 10 horns aka 10 kings are not crowned. Why? Because they haven’t destroyed Mystery Babylon yet.

“So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.” Revelation 17:3

Once Mystery Babylon is destroyed Revelation 17:16-17 tell us that the 10 kings give their kingdoms to the beast, in order to form the beast kingdom that will tread down the whole earth.

“16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.” Revelation 17:16-17

So with that information, we can turn to Revelation 13 and see that when the beast rises up out of the sea, his 10 horns are finally crowned. Why are the 10 horns crowned? Because they have defeated MYSTERY BABYLON and will now reign for 1 hour with the beast!

“1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. ” Revelation 13:1

Getting the chronology of major end-time events is crucial because it helps us to understand the GAME PLAN of GOD! Thus, when we turn to Revelation 14 we can see the CORRECT chronology of major end-time events. Everything in that chapter is chronological. The sealing of the 144,000 is foreshadowed in the book of Ezekiel chapter 9. Judgment comes after the elect are sealed. The first angel message parallels Matthew 24:14.

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” Matthew 24:14

“6Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” Revelation 14:6-7

The second angel message STARTS THE DAY OF THE LORD! It’s the fall of Babylon! The sudden destruction that comes upon the whole world! Thank God that He has already told His saints what to do when we see the day approaching though. Jeremiah 51:50, the last of 9 calls to flee out of Babylon contained in chapters 50 and 51, is a call from God about where the saints must go when Babylon falls.

We have to go to Jerusalem! That is why Jesus Christ gave those specific instructions in Matthew 24:15-20 for those who are living in Judea.

The chronology of Revelation 14 further tells us the order of end time events by telling us what comes next when the 3rd angel sounds, and that is the Mark of the Beast! We can see that Revelation 14 parallels Matthew 24.

The wilderness deliverance is sandwiched in between the 2nd and 3rd angel message of Revelation 14. After Mystery Babylon is destroyed in 1 hour the whole world will be turned upside down. The world that we know today will be totally different when the day of the LORD starts. That’s why there will be no problem for the saints to go to Israel when that day comes. The OT prophets even speak about the “foreigners and strangers” that will go to Israel in the last days to seek the LORD. (read Isaiah 13 and 14 for one example; which not coincidentally speaks about the destruction of Babylon) The prophets were speaking about the church!

My main point is that God has spelled out in black and white ink that a place of safety has been prepared for the saints in the last days, which will be in the wilderness. What will precede this event? The fall of Mystery Babylon. What will come after the wilderness deliverance? The mark of the beast. This is what the Bible clearly teaches. And to argue against it is devilish. Feet have to be put to faith. Faith without works is dead. Noah had to build an ark. Abraham had to leave his country. Lot had to flee sodom. Rahab had to hide the spies. etc. etc. etc. Over and over and over again, throughout the scriptures, the saints had to do SOMETHING. The last days will be no different. That’s why Jesus Christ even warns us that we must not hesitate when the abomination of desolation happens. Because even if you flinch one inch to turn back, you will be caught by the beast and made into a supreme example of what will happen to all those who refuse to bow down to the beast and accept his mark.

There is so much that still needs to be said, but I will leave you with this. What is most important now though, next to proclaiming the coming kingdom of Jesus Christ and the salvation of the lost, is understanding who Mystery Babylon is. I mean for God to include 2 whole chapters in both the OT and NT about her has to mean a whole lot. Repeated calls to flee from her in both the OT and NT all mean something. And identifying her in these last days is CRUCIAL. Revelation 17:18 tell us all we need to know if these are the last days.

your article made me want to vomit. try reading the Bible, the rapture theory isn’t even a Biblical theory until after Constantine wrote his work… “City of God” which a lot of self righteous religious bigots got a hold of and ran with……..notice our problem today, people think they will be magically whisked away to a place of safety, sorry, my Bible does not state that . stop misconstruing scripture to suit your own desire.

I would like to first apologize for my harsh comments last evening, I do not normally leave comments on your site as I do not wish to engage people on theology, as most mainstream christians think they have it right and egos and vanity often overwhelm me. I do not believe in the rapture theory or the “when you die you go to heaven” nonsense and find it very discouraging when a website only shares half of the truth with people who visit. You have the enemy correct, I’ll give you that, but that is all. I feel you mislead people at your own peril and feel that I needed to say something. Again, please forgive my harsh comments as you are correct, Constantine does get more credit than he deserves as there are possibly multiple Jesuits out there that also had something to do with this grand delusion.

“The original doctrines of the early Church were millennialist. The Church looked forward to the return of Christ and the resurrection of the saints at his return. The saints would then rule the Earth for one thousand years, after which the Second (or General) Resurrection would occur, and the judgment would follow from that thousand-year period.

There are many Old Testament Scriptures that go to Revelation 20 verses 1-15 and interrelate with those verses. Unless we understand the resurrection and the Millennium we cannot understand what is happening at the return of the Messiah. For instance we cannot understand Zechariah 14:16-19 in the establishment of the Feast of Tabernacles and the requirement to send advocates to Jerusalem. The Seventh Day Adventists cannot understand those Scriptures. They cannot understand Isaiah 66:20 and the restoration of the Sabbath and the New Moons, because they have a heavenly Millennium. They cannot make any sense out of the prophecies of the Old Testament relating to the return of the Messiah, because they do not understand the situation that will be established at his return.

Most people out there are misguided, and the problem with their theology stems from the scenario that they place the Earth in, at the coming of Messiah. Satan has attacked this doctrine as a fundamental source of error for 2,000 years. This doctrine marks the true Church and it has been used to attack the Church and Christianity and subvert the understanding of the Bible. ”

that is a direct quote from a research paper titled “The Millennium and the Rapture” here is the link.

of course you have already stated your own position on what you feel is truth and so eloquently quoted the verses that you feel uphold your view. You know, I sincerely once believed that if I was truly good and did all that I was supposed to do, I would one day, upon my death, see my dead earthly father again. I had so vehemently protected that theory to the point I wouldn’t even listen to anyone who would ever point out scriptures like Eccles. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

I just wouldn’t listen to reason and know that it was because it just wasn’t my time to understand. We are called at a time when we will benefit our Holy Creator and His plan. Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So with that being said, how do you interpret these verses: Isaiah 66:20-24 And they shall bring all your brethren [for] an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

It’s clear to me that people will still be around honoring God and not everyone gets to be whisked away to safety.
No worries though as God will return Enoch and Elijah to restore all things, especially His Holy Laws and then we shall see who is protected and who is not.

Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. Malachi 4:4-6

I am praying for the two great witnesses to get here, then I will know exactly how long until Messiah shows up, but it’s not going to be a welcome coming for many who don’t want to let go of paradigms taught by broken leaders. I have a feeling that is why Messiah makes this statement over and over……….

Matt.8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 22:13-14 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Matt. 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Chapter 25 is a wonderful explanation of what we can look forward to once Messiah returns.

Type in obamacare 2013 RFID chip YouTube.com watch the videos it’s mandatory march 2013 mark of the beast.
Type in Jessie ventura’s conspiracy theory HAARP YouTube.com watch how the us government controls the weather and also fries a person with the machine tesla made the machine us government took the plans and built their own machine. RFID chips coming soon

Also lookup planet x or wormwood on YouTube.com find out that a planet will be coming by earth and there will be a pole shift and the trash meteors behind it will be raining down to earth. Florida will be under water anyone on the coast will be greeted by 13 stories of water.
Go watch for yourself you be the judge.
Also watch Tesla free light on YouTube.com learn how to create a working light with no batteries and no plug in the wall by use of radio waves $20 to make one make them now for free light when the energy grid goes down you will still have light.
And watch Tesla lights the machine made with crystals that will help enlighten you and heal your own body. It’s a company in Texas
God Bless you Everyone in Jesus name Amen and Amen

Oh dearie me, we do have some vehemently expressed opinions! Jesus said watch that you don’t get caught unawares and,told the parable of the ten virgins as an example. People who interpret scripture according to their own understanding and not let the holy spirit enlighten their thinking will be caught unawares. To the atheist If you Google evidence for Jesus existence you will see that various people from history had mentioned him in their writings. As for those who type in caps that is really putting me off reading your remarks. It is rude and bad mannered.

Now onto the rapture and end times, could there be an order of events mentioned like what comes first rapture, antichrist, wrath, or antichrist, wrath, rapture, or antichrist, rapture,wrath..!!!!?

Helen:
Oh dearie me, we do have some vehemently expressed opinions! Jesus said watch that you don’t get caught unawares and,told the parable of the ten virgins as an example. People who interpret scripture according to their own understanding and not let the holy spirit enlighten their thinking will be caught unawares. To the atheist If you Googleevidence for Jesus existence you will see that various people from history had mentioned him in their writings. As for those who type in caps that is really putting me off reading your remarks. It is rude andbad mannered.

Now onto the rapture and end times, could there be an order of events mentioned like what comes first rapture, antichrist, wrath, or antichrist, wrath, rapture, or antichrist, rapture,wrath..!!!!?

Type in obamacare 2013 RFID chip YouTube.com watch the videos it’s mandatory march 2013 mark of the beast.
Type in Jessie ventura’s conspiracy theory HAARP YouTube.com watch how the us government controls the weather and also fries a person with the machine tesla made the machine us government took the plans and built their own machine. RFID chips coming soon

Also lookup planet x or wormwood on YouTube.com find out that a planet will be coming by earth and there will be a pole shift and the trash meteors behind it will be raining down to earth. Florida will be under water anyone on the coast will be greeted by 13 stories of water.
Go watch for yourself you be the judge.
Also watch Tesla free light on YouTube.com learn how to create a working light with no batteries and no plug in the wall by use of radio waves $20 to make one make them now for free light when the energy grid goes down you will still have light.
And watch Tesla lights the machine made with crystals that will help enlighten you and heal your own body. It’s a company in Texas
God Bless you Everyone in Jesus name Amen and Amen

You forgot one! Not a big one, I just noticed it a few weeks ago:
Hezekiah was calling for all the prophets of (Baal?) and he crammed them all into one temple for a sacrifiice to their god. But first! Hezekiah told his men that any man that escapes out of the temple should be killed and any of his men who let one escape will pay for it with his own life. Then he sends his soldiers in to make sure theire are NO SERVANTS OF THE GOD OF ISRAEL INSIDE-AND GET THEM OUT NOW!, then he orders his men to kill every person in the temple.
Hezekiah made sure all the sacrifice garments were on the priests, that the sacrifice was fully prepared BEFORE he sent his men to root out all the servants of the God of Israel.
So I think – I’m no genius – that this also foreshadows the rapture.

Jason:
The fraudulent Dr. O shows his true gutteral atheist colors with his curses. Thanks for showing us just how erudite the atheists really are when their false assertions are exposed to the truth.

the only people who make assertions are believers. Atheist will say god does not exist based on lack of evidence. Christians say god exist. That is an assertion based no evidence. Why does your god hide ? I guess the Jewish religion is the one true religion because god came down and talked to them in person. If that is the case then Christians will join atheist in the lake of fire.

I’m amused at the gross infrastructure that Christians have created to support their Theological Lie based delusional world-view.
Catholicism has created it’s own on-line dictionary so it can lie to everybody about its own history and concepts.
Christians have even created their own scientific branches like ‘Biblical Archaeology’ so they can tell lies about archaeology and pretend that it supports Biblical scripture, when archaeology truly does not, these are the kind of lies people like Jason on this site believe to be truth. Ha Ha, they’ve really been absolutely fooled. Thus, real scientists know such people who read religiously doctored, fraudulent knowledge such as Biblical Archaeology to be complete fools.
It’s the same kind of lie framework Creationists build to sheild their followers from the truth that Creationism is nothing but a pack of lies.

Weird, absolutely deluded Christians have created websites like this to push a multitude of stupid lies and the sad thing is that some dolts even believe the rubbish they read here.
Those that believe what is published on this website must have an intelligence way below average and the world scientific/historical knowledge of primary school students. Enter Jason and John Ortiz and B&E!

Presumably you believe in evolution. And, presumably you require empircal evidence that a thing is true. And, presumably then, you believe, you are descended from apes. So, tell us, which of your ancestors you observed was a ape? The clock is ticking.

The mechanism for human to ape evolvement is now being discovered, it is likely we evolved due to a mutation that allowed reduced DNA methylation, which allowed the production of the differences we are all aware of.

My ape ancestor was Lucy’s Great, Great, Great by a dozen times removed grand parents.
They lived quite happily around 200 million years ago on the edges of the African deserts.
My mitocondrial DNA matches me to them, so I know that is where they lived.

I bet you cannot trace your history back that far.
You think you are related to two idiots in a garden some 6000 years ago.
Sorry M8, the garden never existed, nor did Adam and Eve.

We are ot direct descendants of apes. They are the closest ancestor we have. chimps have 98% of our DNA and most animals have a percentage of our DNA. rRead a little on the subject before making statements.

If the earth is millions of years old, and man is at least hundreds of thousands perhaps millions of years old, where are all the skeletons? There should be billions and billions of human skeletons that are more than 6 thousand years old. Where are they? The clock is ticking.

For starters Jason Ol’ M8ey! 😀
I’m not Dr O.
Though I agree with much of what he/she stated.
The short answer to your question of why there are not millions of human skeletons more than 6 thousand years old. Well the truth is around 15000 years old, because it was only between 10,000 to 15,000 years ago that humans started burying their dead.
Prior to that, for many millions of years, humans that died simply got eaten by bone crunching predators, thus, not many bones survived. Though we have found human bones of around 40,000 years old that met untimely deaths from being buried in mud slies, rock falls, avalanches, etc… These are accidental burials, which is the same for many animal fossils.
Thus, it is hard fo find fossils of animals that didn’t get buried.

I better not teach you any more, or your head would burst!
Too much information!

To the chosen,God our Heavenly Father the Lord God Almighty does talk to His children through His Holy Spirit and Jesus does manifests Himself to the ones that call out with a pure and humble heart.

You don’t know Jesus because you have not searched for the Kingdom of God. Once you have knowledge of the Father and His love for you then He will lead you to His Son and by the power of His Holy Spirit you shall be saved in Jesus’s name.

Being saved and belonging to Jesus and His Kingdom is an individual relationship.
There is no church nor no man that can save you .

Why are you spending your time with Bible Training. If you don’t believe in your heart then you have not the Father the Lord God Almighty
I hear alot of insecurity in your writings and it’s time you opened your eyes to the truth

You are a Spiritual being and you are the Fathers child , this is true. Ask the Father by the power of His Holy Spirit to fill you with His wisdom and knowledge.

I am true, I have been baptized by the Holy Spirit. I am Jesus’s own and the Lord God Almighty’s child.
This does not come from man.

If you would call out to Jesus He will be there if your heart is pure and humble.

I got baptized in the holy spirit, did a bit of glossolalia (tongue speaking), but realized after a couple of months that the Pentecostal speaking in tongues is entirely fake.
It’s just meaningless noises, which I totally proved, scientifically.

I have no insecurities, I’m just having a little joust with dead brained Creationists for a lurk.
I’m also helping to provide comedy notes for my comedian friend who also loves taking the mickey out of the extremely dumb people in our society, namely Creationists.
They are so extremely and utterly braindead that they are supremely funny.
We cannot get enough of them, they provide my friend with many hours of comedy for his shows.
Jason is providing us with many laughs.

People who believe in the Holy Spirit, aren’t much better than Creationists and also provide us with a great deal of comedy.
Thanks for the laughs M8! 😀

BTW: I went to a religious private school where the Bible and theology were mandatory studies.
I passed with flying colors, I actually enjoyed the school.
Though on discussions with my ex-Theologian friend who had once taught me theology, but, discovered it was all lies and he had been brainwashed (indoctrinated) into believing it. He started teaching me sectarian principles and philosophies that he had discovered while researching in the public library. The school library didn’t stock such sectarian knowledge which he protested about.

Had the “Clergy Project” existed back then, he would have jumped at the opportunity to change his profession from priest and theology instructor to something secular.
Sadly, it didn’t exist and his only choice was to wait out his remaining years until retirement, bitterly resenting his theological training.
His mind was opened too late in life.

When will your mind open to the truth IAMone2 Ol’ M8!
Hope it is not too late, or you might suffer the same regrets he did.

Proof that prayer doesn’t do anything, ever, is everywhere!
If prayers worked, Romney would easily be the President.
He had the backing of the biggest call to arms (prayer) of any candidate.
He had the backing of the majority of religious bigots and devout freaks who held many prayer sessions in an attempt to remove the comparatively godless Obama.
No, prayers never work!

They have been proven to be totally useless in influencing any outcome, even for individual outcomes like finding salvation for others.
Prayer = Inneffective Time Wasting.

Proof that prayer doesn’t do anything, ever, is everywhere!
If prayers worked, Romney would easily be the President.
He had the backing of the biggest call to arms (prayer) of any candidate.
He had the backing of the majority of religious bigots and devout freaks who held many prayer sessions in an attempt to remove the comparatively godless Obama.
No, prayers never work!

They have been proven to be totally useless in influencing any outcome, even for individual outcomes like finding salvation for others.
Prayer = Inneffective Time Wasting.

so I wouldn’t waste your time on moi.

In Truth I would not say that I am “waisting my time” bringing a brother back to the fold.

People who believe in the Holy Spirit, aren’t much better than Creationists and also provide us with a great deal of comedy.
Thanks for the laughs M8!

Guddaym8

I don’t see where you have been educated as high as you pretend you are when the most important part of Creationalism (Belonging to our Father Lord God Almighty) is the Holy Spirit.

In Truth you are not educated in the words of the Lord.

You must be born again to understand the Spiritual world around you and to know that the Father very well exists and loves you very much as His child. Once the Holy Spirit takes up residence inside you your journey to everlasting Peace Love Happiness and Joy in Jesus’s name will begin.

I’ve alread done the whole “Born Again” and receive the holy spirit session.
I soon got over it when I realized (from their own children), that those all claiming to have received gifts through the holy spirit were telling lies.
Nobody has ever received such gifts.
Speaking in tongues is totally fake, which I proved to everybody and still teach today.
A good study of the Pentecost (Acts) shows that all the Pentecostal speaking in tongues was simply the Jewish people coming to the realization that their parents had given them all a common language (Hebres) which kept them together in language when they all spoke different local dialects in the disparate regions they were raised.
I have friends that speak fluent Hebrew (the same Hebrew spoken in the time of Jesus) and they would come with me to tongue speaking sessions and not a word of Hebrew was ever presented to them. So the Charismatic Christian Pentecostal Fervor of Speaking In Tongues is Purely Glossolalia

I ceased studying the Bible after much of it became obviously proven as false and idiotic.
I drilled holes in my very expensive gold embossed, leather bound Bible to turn it into a joke prop.
I put a light, batteries and switch into it, dress up as a priest and it glows when opened, like the famous advertisement. Yes it brings heaps of laughs, everytime I use it!

gud is really losing it. Being here has made him very afraid. The Holy Spirit evokes this kind of fear in a mean created being.

Interesting how guy attacks and attempts to defame God. Only a really person can be attacked and defamed. Inasmuch as this blog is replete with such attacks by mr. gud, it is quite apparent that he believes God is real, and therefore trembles.

Continue to write gud. Each post reveals more of the inner frightened being that you are.

By evidence of your snide remarks and continual, infantile, irrational, argumentum ad hominem attacks.
You’ve alread lost it.
Probably lost it many years ago by the comments in your posts! LOL 😀

I don’t need to Defame God, The Bible does a very good job of that for me when people read it with a critical, open mind.
Not a closed, theological, lie filled mind such as your own, you can never read it with an open mind, nor critically.
That’s an impossibility.

BTW Jason Ol’ M8!
I’m currently teaching philosophy, and when I say WE, I mean myself and my students.
I’m using this website and your posts to demonstrate the absolutely stupid side of Christianity and you are doing a fabulous job of demonstrating that I’m absolutely correct in calling devout Christians idiotic and infantile.

I even arm all my students with a copy of the Bible, which they can take home and amuse themselves with the copious amounts of ancient stupidity it contains.
Richard Dawkins would be proud of me!

I confess Jesus as Lord and Savior.
I submit to Him
I pray for deliverance from the evil one and his minions
Jesus is God come in the flesh
I pray Lord Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God
That you would drive these evil spirits from me and
Send them into the abyss to await the great day of their punishment.
I pray for salvation.
May our Lord Jesus Christ rebuke you, you filthy and profane devil,
Because He came into the world and walked among us in order
To make a mockery of your violent outrage and free mankind from your enslavement.
Jesus has defeated you satan, and your are thoroughly conquered.
I now command you, you devil, in the naem of the Living God who revealed the Tree of Life
and Who assigned the cherubims and seraphims with flaiming swords as guardian around it
Be silent, and get away from me!
I bow my knee and submit my heart to the Lord Jesus Christ.
In the name of our wonderful Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, I pray
Amen

Ha Ha Jason Ol’ M8! 😀
That can be your prayer old son.
I’d much rather meditate, because meditation is more beneficial than prayer.

Besides, if prayers actually worked Mitt Romney would be president right now, elected on the strength of prayer alone. LOL!
Because he had the biggest support of deluded loons like those you are a member of.

Prayers never work for anything, nobody is really listening and nobody really answers.
Some idiots think that they get answers, but, those can be proven to be just their own illusion.

We know where you are headed. All of your invective will not save you nor diminish the faith we have in the Living God, Jesus Christ. He will return, and you will stand before Him. In fact, your knees will bow and your tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. This will likely occur just before you are thrown in the lake of fire.

Your writings have all the evidence of demonically induced insanity. Sort of like the Joker in Batman. Yes, that’s who you remind me of.

Satan doesn’t exist either.
If God doesn’t exist, you know the supposedly good bloke that massacres innocents for absolutely no reason at all. Mythical Flood, Jericho, etc….
The counterpart used by religion to scare idiots into the disgusting arms of this God, named Satan cannot possibly exist as well.

You have absolutely nothing to scare me with, apart from your own pretentious fantasy characters.
Since I’m not superstitious in any way, you cannot bother me with your superstitious rot.

No, you are the one your Lord would most likely rebuke.
As if any God would want to be followed only the dumbest people on the planet.
You’d be an embarrassment to any Lord.

If your lord had any intelligence, it would likely seek the following of intelligent beings.
Yes, it’d probably choose atheists, because they have infinitely greater intelligence than you unintelligent God botherers.
Why would any God give humans high intelligence capabilities, only to choose the lowest forms of that intelligence.

The Lord (if it existed) would simply laugh at no hopers like yourself attempting to give it instructions. It’s against your Lord’s rules to condemn others, you know, love your enemy. “Turn the other cheek”, etc…..

You are only demonstrating to your Lord, your irrational Bigotry and hatred..
Thus you are the one asking to be REBUKED.

You better read your Bible properly M8, b4 you make silly bigoted posts that may get you into trouble with your own beloved Lord. LOL

As you whistle in the dark, looking back over you shoulder, remember the words you have written. God is not mocked. He sees all. I know this for a fact. When He appeared to me, I was made aware of that fact. He is real. You and all will give an account. It would be best if you repented now. Do not compound your coming punishment.

When you tell someone that has an evil entity inside them creating confusion for the little ones that are wanting to know the truth and be saved, the words “Lord Rubuke Thee” are meant in spritual defiance of the evil entity that is talking control of the Fathers child.
For you not speaking of the truth but of lies and deceit this entity is being shown to all who have the Father’s Spirit.

We have not been talking to the entity, we have been reaching out to the Fathers child in Spirit.

It is evident the more we talk the more desperate the devil inside is to deceive with scripture and with false love of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You my brother were fooled from the start because you have not met Jesus yet. Were you baptised spiritually then physically as ye should have been. Did the devil take you out of the Lords arms before you could even sip your first drink of milk?

I in the name of the Lord God Almighty I rebuke thee devil in Jesus’s name, leave this child be and return to the hell in which ye came from.

Devout Christians claim that you cannot know the will of God, therefore nobody can assume that their beloved ones will get to Heaven, for that is to make assumptions about the will of God that you cannot possibly make with any certainty.
If Heaven and Hell exist, you have a 20% chance that your beloved or even yourself will make it to heaven, if you or your beloved ones chose the wrong faith, some of you might not get there, if any of you have blasphemed, some of you might not get there.
It’s like playing craps.
Most will lose and not make it.
So you will only have likely a 10% chance of meeting any of your beloved ones, if you make it to heaven. You might have a 90% chance of meeting them in the mythical Hell.
So, if you really are dead set enthusiastic about meeting your beloved ones, you are better off going to Hell, as the chances are far better!

These odds come from studying the rules for achieving a place in Heaven from reading the Bible.
Yes, the odds are not in anybody’s favor of meeting beloved friends and relatives in Heaven.
Much better chances in Hell.

I in truth I have to say that your knowledge is only of a physical worldly world and you have no clue about the knowledge of a spiritual world nor do you have no knowledge of the power of the Heavenly Fathers’s Holy Spirit.
Why do you think we are called “born again”believers in Jesus Christ?
When you are baptized by the Holy Spirit you become a completely new being. One who is filled with the wisdom and knowledge that the Father in Heaven gives through receiving His precious Holy Spirit.
It is a growing process that doesn’t happen over night.
Through the years you will be given trials and tested and become more knowledgable in the Spirit and more alive Spiritually than physically.
You grow in faith and desire for the truth and you become what the Heavenly Father wants you to be not what the world requires you to be.
Jesus died on the cross so that the Fathers fallen creation(because of Adam) can be once again perfected in the Fathers light for His purpose and for His glory.
That is a oneway ticket to assure you that Jesus will be with you always and you will live in the Fathers house for eternity
Hell is not realized as part of a Christians world ,it is used only when trying to lead a brother to the truth through Jesus Christ and be borne into the Heavenly Fathers Family.

Remember, I was schooled at a theological school and was once a believer myself.
I’ve since become a skeptical agnostic. I even spent several years studying the Bible.
I still value the teachings of Jesus.
Though there is a current theory that Jesus was schooled in India and his philosophies came from Buddhism and not Judaism. I know his “Do unto others as thou would have done unto thyself” came from Confucius (Kong Fozi ) who lived 500 years earlier.
There is some evidence for this.
I have been schooled by a theologian who knew far more about the spiritual world and Christian theology than you will probably ever know.
Even he turned away from Christianity, with my assistance and references I offered him.

I still believe that there exists an omnipotent being somewhre in the Universe.
Though this omnipotent being is definitely not the God written about in the Bible.
Likely this omnipotent being has little knowledge of humans or is totally oblivious to our existence.

The God created by the camel herders and Abraham was definitely their creation, it is too narcissistic, megalomaniac, idiotic and completely, insanely stupid to be revered by humans.
Such a bevolent narcissistic megalomaniac God cannot possibly exist in any form of reality, spiritual nor physical.
If you want proof of it’s stupidity, narcissism and megalomania, just read your Bible.

The Bible has become the best tool for promoting Atheism available on the planet.
That is why blokes like Richard Dawkins wants every school to have copies.

No!
The beast is only a scare tactic to keep you in the fold.
I can’t believe people can be so naive as the likes of yourself.
No wonder my M8 uses your kind for his comedy source.
Such ac completely deluded brainless bunch I’ve never struck before in my life.

Maybe you, Jason, B&E, Joe Ortiz can join your brains together and if you are lucky, you might produce a single brain cell between you.

You lot are so extremely deluded that reality is completely beyond your understanding.

I think I’ll use you lot for my own comedy show!
A never ending supply of laughs!!

You lot are so extremely deluded that reality is completely beyond your understanding.

I think I’ll use you lot for my own comedy show!
A never ending supply of laughs!!

Aye M8!

guddaym8

I have told you that you are a Spiritual being not made for this reality as you call it.
This reality has been created from the lies and deceits of unbelievers who have made
lucifer their father.

Your spiritual being was not made for this reality, but for eternity with the Lord God Almighy our Heavenly Father.

If you could only know how close we are to the Saviours return you may awaken from this delusion you call life.

In my eyes I see the world on the edge of the end of the first 3 1/2 yrs of the tribulation period and soon will be cast in darkness by lucifers shadow.

Are you willing to bet me your eternal soul that you know the truth and I dont?

That is exactly what you are doing when you hear not nor see not.

Just lucky for you I am no betting man and have not died for your sins.

The one that did die and HIS Father who raised him from an physical death in the same body that was cruciried for the worlds remission of sin is returning sooner than most people realize.

If you had the wisdom and knowledge of the Father which is only received by His precious Holy Spirit you would know that we are in the time of the 7 yr tribulation. The time has been shortened to save the elect.

Soon your reality will be filled with demons and witches and evil and wickedness.

The day of the good remaining good and the wicked(the unbelievers) becoming more evil, is at our doorstep and you will become wicked if not protected by the Fathers Holy Spirit.

You have an spirit inside you that is waiting to be awakened to the truth.

I’ve told no lies here, so I’ve got nothing to fear from any of your dreamtime heroes and demons.
All I’ve stated has been stated before by people that have studied scripture and reality.
Scripture has mostly been destroyed by studies into reality and it is scripture that is now wearing the LIE tag. Scripture fails scrutiny by reality in things it states about reality!
Thus it can be truly considered as lies told by naive writers thousands of years ago.

Ha Ha, Jasoh Ol’ M8! 😀 Jesus seen in a Bulgarian church, LOL, it was probably my M8 who looks like the depictions of Jesus or any joker with a beard for that matter.
[Censored for personal attacks]

Truth is, nobody ever knew what Jesus truly looked like, nor Mary or any other characters in the Bible saga. All images of Jesus are fraudulent and simply imaginary, nothing exists in the entire world that shows what Jesus’s likeness is. It’s just delusion!
The images of Jesus and the Marys were invented by artists that never saw any of them.
Thus they are all fake and all wrong.
Besides, such worshiping of images is anti-Christian and Anti-Commandments.
So the worship of fake images of Jesus on Toast,
Weeping statues of Mary, etc…..
Are all anti-Bible and extremely Pagan.
Though Catholicism is mostly Pagan anyway.

Well, we have seen enough to know that ‘gud’ is either a demon , or is demon possessed. He writes with a flair, in fact, a poetic style of falsehoods at that, yet full of blashemy, lies, distortions and self assuredness, giving us a good picture of who he is. These are characteristics of Satan. This may be Satan in disguise coming to war against us. He is desparately trying to destroy faith knowing his time is short. More proof the Bible is true. God tells us that when the devil comes down to earth he will be filled with rage because he knows his time is short. You are dealing with an ancient evil who has had thousands of years of practice in attempting to undermine the Word with sophistry and supercilious arguments that will move those who do not know the Lord. Resist him God says, and he will flee. We know Who will win. And, the time must be close judging by the desparate rantings of the verbose lunatic who insists on attacking us and the posits of this website. This must mean that what is stated in this website is true. Look at all the rhetorical capital ‘gud’ is expending here. Very very interesting. Something definitely spiritual at work here. Thanks, gud, you have given us some very powerful clues to how close to the end we are. Jesus has defeated you and the evil one. Judgement of the same is just a matter of a short time.

Well Jaso Ol’ M8ey! Demons don’t exist, demonic possession has been ruled out of existence by medical knowledge.
You are like Theology, 2000 years behind any knowledge of the real world and getting further behind.
Theology can never catch up, because it is set in concrete by the Biblical scripture and cannot advance any closer to the present in knowledge than the time the scriptures were written by naive, ignorant sheep, camel and goat herders.
You will be forever ignorant of the real world, due to your deep delusion.
Your whole life is wasted in wishful thinking and dreaming of characters (God, Jesus, Abraham, etc…) that real world knowledge knows may possibly have never existed.
Demons are inventions by those naive minds to gain irrational power over superstitious minds.
Your superstitious mind has been captured by such demon stories, thus will never be free to understand anything real.
As far as we in the real world are concerned.
You know nothing, your are deluded into a dreamworld mentality that you will never be free of.
Thus you will never know anything for the rest of your life.
Your intelligence is diminishing by the day.
I’m a student of the universe, my intelligence is now very high, my knowledge of the real world and the beliefs you lot hold of the spiritual world are very good and getting better every day.
The more I study your beliefs from the outside, the more stupid your lot appears.
This is why my very learned friend (also theological trained) uses your comments and beliefs as material for commedy shows.
We are both studying Philosophy together.
Philosophy is far better than theology in we study the same concepts, but our methodology conclusions are not based on lies like those of Theology are.

I don’t know where Jaso Ol’ M8! gets the idea that I’m afraid of anything.
My students haven’t noted any shaking in my fingers as I type these posts.
They only see the smile that crosses my face at every post Jaso puts up. LOL! 😀
Then the grin as they laugh at what they read over my shoulders.

There’s absolutely no fear of God in this room, not from moi, nor my M8z.
Jason is only hoping (wishing) that fear exists here.
Sorry Jaso Ol’ M8!

guddaym8:
Ha Ha Jason Ol’ M8!
That can be your prayer old son.
I’d much rather meditate, because meditation is more beneficial than prayer.

But, sorry to say, we don’t hold much hope of that, because those few thinking brain cells you might have left are being starved of logical thought and will likely die shortly, leaving you no way out of idiotic delusion.

Aye M8!

guddaym8

Believe when I say the physical is not important!

Jesus has supped with me ,he also told me this is the last generation this was in ’73 when I was saved by calling out His name in humbleness and a pure heart.

I was led by His wisdom and knowledge,that you can only receive by the Fathers Holy Spirit the method used to count the number who the antichrist is(the man with the number 666) and with that same method counting the number of the beast ,666 is also lucifers number.

The number for satan is 9 number for man is 6. The first 36 numbers of the numerology chart added together (1+2+3+4….+36 = 666.3+6= 9, also 9 is an inverted 6. Whatever the Father creates satan does backwards.
The antichrist(a man)began his 3/1/2 yrs in 2009, the beast will soon begin his 3 1/2 yrs in rule of the 1/4 part of the world which is Europe Africa and Asia.

I am not delusional or religous. I am of the truth!

The Truth is in our Lord Jesus’s name and I am His own.

The atheists (unbelievers) have already been tried and found guilty because the truth is not in them and they themselves have sentanced theirselves because of a hardened heart which satan has blackened and has claimed to be His.

Your soul can only be destroyed by immense heat. Think of your soul as an HD on an computer. It is you your joys,your heartaches,your desires and your wants. This is what will be resurected when the Lord calls you up with Him or when you stand in front of Him at the Great White Throne Judgement.

BHO is not the antichrist but has merely taken his number and does his will.

The true anti-christ ushered Obama in at his ’09 innaguration saying this is the man to lead us into an New World Order.

This is not primary school this is real and your soul is satans at present.

Call out the Lords name Jesus , and be saved or forever hold your peace and be damned.

Read Revelations and be blessed.
I wash my feet now.
LISTEN TO WHAT THE SPIRIT IS SAYING

So you met Jesus, Ha Ha, now we all know you really flipped your lid.
You’re a laugh a minute. LOL 😀
Numerology is just another man made superstition.
Numbers have no power, 6 is just a symbol man (arabic) invented to represent a group of six counted objects instead of six strokes. Every nation back then had a different symbol for six items.
These symbols have absolutely no power nor spiritual representation whatsoever.
Those that believe in the superstition of numerology and 666 representing Evil are the world’s biggest absolute and complete idiots, yes, you can now count yourself (using demonic symbols LOL) as one of them!
LOL! 😀

We love loopies, loopies are just too funny, the world would be so boring without you loopies!
Aye M8! 😀

Thanks very much for your contributions to this commentary here. I had a chance to follow some of this discussion recently and wanted to ask you a couple of questions just to be sure of the position you are advocating:

1) If I read correctly, you do not believe in a soul, right? (obviously if you did it would render much of this debate pointless because you’d be a faith-based believer). So in your worldview you are just an animal and no greater than say, a rat or cockroach (or rather they are your equals), correct?

2) You wrote: “We love loopies..” This is not the first time you used that term which is the quintessential aspect of Christianity: love. Do you actually believe that love exists?

What, now I have to answer to another Loopie called B&E, LOL! 😀
Loopies are people without a single brain cell functioning correctly, which is obvious in many that post on this website.
The “Soul” is something dreamed up in ancient Greece and Egyptian religions, it is purely an illogical concept and has no grounding in any form of evidence based study.
This includes those that have spent the last century seeking spiritual evidence for a soul.
Their findings so far and forever may be zilch.
Love has always existed and yes, it is really a set of natural reactions that involve a few groups of brain chemicals including seratonin, oxytocin (the love/trust drug) which make a woman feel love for her new born child, plus other reactions that stabilize and give us the long term closeness that we term Love.

Love is the quintessential basis of many/most religions and social groups such as families.
Christianity has no basis for any claim to love as a support for it’s stupidity.
Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism all have equal claims to love and caring, Taoism has a greater love for nature and we see it as superior in many aspects to Christianity.
Also from studying watching many Christian churches and how they behave, splinter and conduct their services, it appears that the prime driving force for Christianity is money and social power in that order. Love comes as a very poor last.

Combining superstitions, Christianity and Numerology as this particular site does regularly, since Numerology is totally ridiculous and the most illogical of all superstitions humans have ever devised, it makes all those supporting the conspiracy theories upheld by you and your site appear as Loopies (no real functioning brain cells) which we LOVE because they provide us and our classes and in my comedian M8s case audiences with many belly laughs.
You Loopies are so stupid that you are extremely funny with your dumber than absolutely dumb concepts, predictions and illogical theories.
We just enjoy ROFLing at your posts and even stupidly conceived questions such as you just asked moi.
Your questions alone show your complete misunderstanding of all things real and living.
We cannot perceive how any of you could hold any kind of a job, except preaching your sily lies to others (theology), such is the living of theologians, maintaining and contriving lies for their believers.

Yes, Theologians are Loopies!
They have very little real knowledge of anything, even their own existence.

Our Love of Loopies is also a brain chemical basis, they generate pleasure responses (loud, continuous laughter) in our clients, producing a set of natural opiates in their brains and making them better, forgetting their pain and problems completely for a short time.

So Loopies like yourself have your uses!

Keep up the great work M8! 😀 😀
Many more funny articles to come we hope! ROFL! 😀 😀 😀 😛 😀 😀

1) You did not answer my question. I did not ask if you believed in the soul. I presumed you didn’t. My question was, since you consider yourself an animal, do you see yourself as equals with a rat or a cockroach?

2) Your definition of love is completely flawed. There is no scientific evdience that everytime your aunt who you love comes near you, that hormones start firing off. Unless of course you can point to a scientific journal that says this.

3) And this is most important – We welcome all viewpoints at Beginning and End. Feel free to disagree with all articles. However, personal attacks on others and just malicious attacks on people groups or religions is not tolerated. You have done this repeatedly and any further posts like this will result in your IP being banned permanently. Please comply with the simple request to express your views in a civil manner with respect for others. There is nothing wrong with saying someone is wrong on an issue, but just maliciously attacking them is not acceptable. Thanks.

Such openly naive questions such as does a person consider himself equal to rats and cockroaches questions are extremely stupid and to answer them will always be considered as lowering oneself to your level of naivety.

Each creature has it’s own inate sets of abilities and place in the cycle of life.
None can be really considered as greater nor lesser than any other.
Yet, all creatures are in competition for dominance and rights to survival, food supply, shelter, freedom from predators.
In this struggle, humans appear superior with superior capabilities, yet, no matter how much humans try to eradicate rats and cockroaches, they persist and even grow in numbers as they have developed ways of using humans as a form of food source and protector.
So the question of survival superiority is a very grey area with rats and cockroaches winning that race.
We do hold superiority when it comes to power and ability to rationalize, imagine, construct, manipulate and destroy the environment but, that is the only superiority we possess.
Yet we also have a detrimental ability to create illusions and delusional worlds within our apparent superior consciousness that sets us back and levels the playing field.

So as you should be able to understand, we are marginally ahead in some aspects only.
[Censored for trolling]

1. A leading question is one that suggests an answer for the listener. I did no such thing to you. You were free to answer how you chose.

So your worldview is that a human life is no greater than that of a cockroach. The purpose of the question was to expose this warped worldview that you espouse. You see no difference between an infant and a roach in terms of their value. If this is what you proudly cling to and teach to your devoted students, well, you have my sympathy. Not to mention that this same flawed, morally-bankrupt worldview was behind the regimes that have perpetuated the worst atrocities in the history of humanity.

You have spent so many posts asserting your superiority over other people but see a rat as your brother and equal in nature. Again, you do have my sympathy.

2. You still have not shown any scientific evidence for the fallacious, pseudo-scientific explanation of love that you provided.

3. You may have missed point 3 in my last post which was about your continued personal attacks. You have done this numerous times now. This is the final warning.

B&E, why do you always go to these, pardon my words, idiotic arguments? Believing in love (which I compared loving a wife to loving a hamburger on), equating human life to a cockroach? really? I know that’s not the best you have, c’mon, let it rip! I need you to! I’m tired of making Ken Ham cry, please give us something new!

What is the point of you being here anyway? You are not here to edify or be edified. You are not seeking the Lord Jesus or to become His follower. Your intent is to disrupt, insult God, insult His followers and destroy faith. Every one of your posts is a lie or an insult and a taunt. You never answer questions. You never give proof or documentation for your assertions and arguments. You merely make provocative, juvenile statements and wonder why we laugh at you. Yet, you come here continually and expect to be received respectfully. It was great while you were gone. Hell must have gotten full recently and they had a mission for you. So, they sent you back to planet earth to incite a little mischief. How does it feel to be a puppet? You are a liar. I know this for a fact. Now, get out permanently and take your demons with you.

Your assumption that humans are better than other animals is nothing more than egotism.
It’s egotism that drives religion, nothing more, nothing less.
Theists all have a delusion of granduer, believing they are chosen by some supernatural power to be above all other creatures.
Fact is (as recent research suggests) that all we really are is apes with a mutated DNA methylation phase. It’s DNA methylation that prevents chimps from developing abnormally as methylation limits gene expression.
The apes we originated from had this methylation inhibited and thus the genes were free to develop advanced traits that we notice today, but, the down side of inhibited methylation is that we also developed anomalies such as cancers that methylation protects the apes from.
I’m a realist, not a narcissist.
Narcissists insist humans are higher than all other creatures because of their narcissism.
Actua reality is that the reduction in DNA methylation is the reason we are different from apes, but, genetically we are only 5% different as we are factually 95% ape.
That’s an absolute fact that even you cannot possibly deny.

I call a spade a spade, I find it hard to call a spade a carrot.
Though creationists have been known to lie about everything and probably wouldn’t recognize a spade if they saw one. They are famous for lying and have become the subject of most of our jokes.
Though Taoism values every creature’s life as much as human life, they won’t even kill a mosquito. My Taoist buddy puts mosquitoes outside and lets them go when he catches them.

Have fun M8!
Because I will.
Have a Happy Rapture Party! 😀 😀
Streamers and BonBons will be everywhere I guess. ROFL 😀

When the “Rapture” is proven to be a totally non-event, after Yuletide is over.
I will be back, LOLing away, happily. adding a few ROFLs to your blatant stupidity of combining dumber than dumb numerology with also rather dumb Christianity to produce such an idiotic mess of illogical predictions.

Combining dumb (Religion) and dumber (Numerology) to make any predictions of the future is really idiotic move for anybody to make.
Though it sells books to many of the totally brainless (which occupy the largest % of the population in the USA) and makes extremely amusing comedy skits for the extremely intelligent comedians like Tim Minchin among many others.

Yes, it’s the Yin/Yang balance.
Society has a nice balance at the moment of the extremely unintelligent (B&E believers) and the extremely intelligent (scientifically minded, free thinkers and atheists).

BTW M8z! Tim Minchin will be doing a satire on “The End Of The World” and making fun of “Rapture Cults” like B&E and this dumb site at 6am Australian time on public ABC radio, Triple-J, if you want to listen in to the fun, you can stream it live. 😛 😀

BTW: Creationists have a much bigger reputation for being the biggest liars on the planet, even bigger liars tha politicians.
Some blatant perpetual tellers of lies inclued: John Morris (Creation Research Foundation), Duane T. Gish, Ken Ham (Answers_In_Genesis, Andrew Snelling to name only a handful of many.

Every single one of those have been proven to lie bare faced to the public and their own followers.
Though even the name of “Creation Research Foundation” itself is a lie, because they have never done any research. I remember when they were given a piece of driftwood that had been barbequed in tariaki sauce and given a fake story about it beeing found at Mt Ararat (which name didn’t exist in Biblical times). They organized a massive media campaign to promote it worldwide as a great find, where if they actually had the driftwood analyzed, they would have found out about the tariaki sauce.
Proving they do no real research, ever, just accept any rubbish that they think points in their favor and attempt to paraphrase genuine research by scientists to twist it as if it supports creation, usually it doesn’t.
Yes, we’ve been watching creationists weave their irrational, poorly based, webs of lies like demented spiders.

It’s been a lot of fun, especially watching them tumble as reality proves them completely wrong which only increases the frequency of their lying.

1) Once again, your worldview is that the death of an infant is no more significant than the death of a cockroach. And you proudly proclaim this as the most superior worldview any person can have. All I can say is, I will pass. And that you have my sympathy because that is a very dismal and sad worldview.

2) Still waiting for your scientific evidence that support the made up “scientific” definition of love you provided. Just provide links to the copious amounts of research you’ve done that supports what you posted and the discussion can actually advance.

Among the numerous lies told on here by ‘gud’ one of the most easily refuted is his assertion that he is descended from ‘lucy’, That lie is so laughable as to disqualify every single utterance he has made in here. The moderator should ban this fraud, ‘gud’, from this website. His repeating lies and rantings are evidence of insanity. He repeats himself endlessly and presents the same atheist lies as facts over and over.

Jesus is alive. He is God. He is real and He is coming back soon. Do not fall for the lies of ‘gud’ or any other atheist whose only objective is to destroy faith, with wild, fraudulent assertions. Contrary to what ‘gud’ claims, he has nothing but lies. You have to wonder what he is doing here.

I’m not convinced that Lucy is a fraud, I just don’t accept the assertions they make about the skeleton they found. I’m sure that Australopithecus was a real, living, tree climbing ape. I don’t understand why any paleontologist would conclude that just because an ape has an angled knee joint that it would be an ancestor of humans. Orangutans also have an angled knee joint and no paleontologist in their right mind would conclude the same. Furthermore, why do they assume that just because an animal is extinct, it produced offspring that with mutations that caused them to become a different family of creature, which things today cannot do.

The rapture theory is an invention of the Jesuits who, during the counter-reformation sought to convince protestants that the pope could not be the antichrist. It is a very dangerous doctrine and many who call themselves christians will be deceived by it. Read 1Th 4:16 ”For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first” or ”1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” or ” Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” There is no secret second coming, because EVERY EYE shall see him. Do not let the devil and his servants fool you!

I read all of this and got one certainty out of it. Jesus is coming and we should be ready as Christians. How he comes, when he comes, what order he comes in with the day of the Lord is debatable for most. Does it matter? I dont think it does. Why? Because it cannot be solved and isnt supposed to be. Thats why Jesus said keep eyes open and be ready. What matters is that it is coming. Lets be ready. Live a good life and do what Jesus asked us to do. That is all we can do. Arguing about all this will cause borderline believers to walk away.. Overall I enjoyed learning things with this blog. As far as “gud”…..poor guy. He used three references to back his soul. One, a retired spiritually weak old geezer who let the devil defeat him in the end. Two, some comedian who noone has heard of or cares about. And three, (excuse my own opinion) but a Pentecostal denomination that does anything but follow the bible. I hope somewhere, somehow the Truth and Lord Jesus is revealed to him before its too late. God bless everyone.

Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
Ice’s mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn’t find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 – and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers “the early pretribulationists” (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including “Pseudo-Ephraem” and a “Rev. Morgan Edwards,” taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist’s arrival as the only “imminent” event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an “imminent” pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards’ historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google historian Dave MacPherson’s “Deceiving and Being Deceived” for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read “pretrib” into phrases like “before Armageddon,” “before the final conflagration,” and “escape all these things”!
BTW, the KJV translators’ other writings found in London’s famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) haven’t a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib “proof” in the KJV that its translators never found?
Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up “Famous Rapture Watchers” (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
Pretrib didn’t flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby “explanatory notes” in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield’s criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book “The Praise of Folly” which is available online.
Biola University’s doctrinal statement says Christ’s return is “premillennial” and “before the Tribulation.” Although universities stand for “academic freedom,” Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases – non-essentials the founders purposely didn’t include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
Ice, BTW, has a “Ph.D” issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn’t authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he’s working on another “Ph.D” via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice’s scholarliness, Google “Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “be careful in polemics – Peripatetic Learning,” and “Walvoord Melts Ice.”
Other fascinating Google articles include “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “X-raying Margaret,” “Edward Irving in Unnerving,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrets,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” and “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism” – most from the author of “The Rapture Plot,” the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history.
Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?

Ron: You won’t be an atheist forever. Forever is only for believers, non-believers will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire! Sorry to disappoint you. A moment after your last breath, when your doctor prounces you dead, you will know that you screwd up big time!

I’ve been studying history along with my psychology degree studies and I believe the most correct comments made on this page have come from the one who calls himself guddaym8.
It appears that the time is over and the fusion of pagan and Christian beliefs involved in this conspiracy prophesy did not work in any way.
Though it is entirely obvious from both a neurological and psychological investigation that Christianity, Islam and Judaism originated from the Hallucinations of Schizophrenia sufferers.
In the intelligence stakes religious devotees are definitely the losers, such is obvious by many of the posts presented here.

Looks like ‘gud’ is back under a new fake name. That’s how he intends to get around being banished. You have to ask yourselves, why is this person obsessed with this topic? You also have to ask yourself, who is this person, really….

You say I’m gud, now you say gud is Magda….am I magda? So, everyone that is capable of intelligent thought you’ll claim is the same person? I personally don’t mind being put into the same group as others who still have brain cells my friend. And the question you should be asking is “why do I spend my days talking to my ceiling and asking it to do things for me?”

In the story of Noah, the ark is not safe until even after the rain begins falling and judgement has been unleashed.

The Angel of the Lord visits Lot (after preparing Abraham) and the people of Sodom are aware of it and try to attack. Lot is supernaturally protected, but it is only after a physical struggle that he is freed from Sodom and escapes. The urgency of the escape is paramount as they witness the destruction. The judgement and rapture process occur at the same time.

In the story of Moses and the Red Sea the Israelites are not raptured into the winderness until the last possible moment and only after they witness first hand the plagues sent upon Egypt. They also experienced the first three plagues. The armies of Egypt are destroyed in the same sea and at the same time of Israel’s escape.

In the story of Jericho and Rahab the harlot, she and her family are saved but they are inside the city during its destruction. Joshua marries Rahab afterward.

In the story of Bejamin’s rebellion at Gibeah, the armies of Israel fight three battles (three woes?) with Benjamin prior to defeating it (foreshadow of the fall of Babylon the great?), During the war, Israel is forced to seek God with a broken heart of repentance and at the very end the remnant and rapture of the bride is portrayed.

(The backdrop to this story is the rape and torture of the whoring concubine who represents the unfaithful/idolatrous chruch and its betrayal by the beast & 10 kings (Rev 17:16). The dismemberment of her body by her husband foreshadows the complete dismantling of the corrupt religious system prior to the final reckoning)

There is plenty of evidence that God will supernaturally protect the Saints during the time of the end. This serves as a demonstration of his faithfulness and might. But when we see certain ones suffering for the sake of Christ what are we to do? Should we assume we have missed the rapture? Not so fast. What did the Apostles and other martyrs do in response to persecution? God has determined for certain Saints to follow in his footsteps, suffering for his name as witnesses against the wicked world.

How much time did it require you to create “Believers Will Escape God’s Wrath — Biblical Foreshadows of the Rapture | Beginning And End”? It comes with plenty of superior details. Thanks a lot -Luciana

I agree that the church isn’t appointed to God’s wrath, but I believe there’s a huge difference between the devil’s wrath and God’s wrath, and I believe biblical scriptures clearly reveal that God’s wrath will be poured out toward the end of the tribulation, and it’s the devil’s wrath being poured out during the tribulation as Revelation 12:12 says.

Here’s a link to a picture diagram I created that shows how I see the timing of the rapture and wrath of God. It’s only a small piece of what i could say, but so is this article of yours here a small piece of what you could say.

I have had many dreams and visions over the past years. And, I encountered Jesus the Christ and an Angel with Him, face to face, I am convinced.

Dream: One dream I had about 4 years ago: I was at the beach, at night. I looked out over the horizon and saw the moon, orangish in color. The moon was full. Then, on the beach in front of me, coming out of the water was a demon. I heard my wife say to me in my dream, as she was standing to my right “do something, it’s a demon.” I looked back at the demon and it had changed into a broom as it came out of the water. I said to my wife, ‘it’s just a broom, not a demon!”. But, she was adament ‘do something!” she screamed. So I picked up the broom and threw it back into the water. Suddenly, the broom changed back into a demon and the water boiled it as it sunk beneath the waves. I looked back at the moon. It had changed into a hand with the index finger pointing upward, and started to go down like a setting sun. I then heard above me and to my right “look up, your redemption is near”.

Vision: I was driving to my office one saturday after running some errands. I looked into the northern sky for some reason. There suspended in the sky at about tree top level from my perspective but probably at 5000 to 10000 feet altitude was a perfectly symetrical backwards ‘y’ shaped cloud. The upper part of the ‘y’ had an equals sign in it. I thought to myself, ‘what is this? is someone doing some very precise sky writing?” I watched it as I drove for about 5 more minutes, but it did not change shape or disappear but seemd to be fixed on place. When I got to my office, I could not see it through the trees, and really had to get back to work, so I did not look for it or see how long it stayed in the sky. I did not see any planes in the sky either.

Three days later, I was driving west just before dusk. In the western sky it was cloudy. But, I could see a dark cloud shaped like a backwards ‘y’. Again. Now, I was beginning to wonder what this was. It was smaller than the first ‘y’ I saw, but had the definite backwards shape it. I had to drive parallel to that position but tried to keep watching it. I watched in amazement as it turned into a perfectly symmetrical 5 point star. I was perplexed and amazed.

Does the Y symbolize the names of Yahweh, and Yahshouah? Does the equal sign stand for the double edged sword that proceeds from the mouth of Jesus? Was it the symbol of the Holy Spirit or the Word of God? Why was the ‘y’ backwards’? What did the five point star mean? These are my questions.

I am glad this website allows the comments and hasn’t deleted any. As for the atheist that is confused about what he believes… I am happy that you are testing the spirits and I pray that you find the truth sooner then later..
Also please keep writing your articles.

Dr. O:
Ok, first of all I already explained why I come to this site (see above) I like to educate myself in all things, religion being one of them, see, to criticize something without understanding it (as you do with atheists) is plain ignorance. I came here to read just like you, I did not find the information to be of good quality which the site moderator as a good person he obviously is can accept as my opinion, (thank you for that Beginning and End). Second I did not attack anyone, on the contrary, I was insulted, judged and more, I was called a homosexual because I’m an atheist (I have no idea what one thing has to do with the other) and my beliefs were not respected so I lashed back. You sir call me a liar and a coward, why are you so mad? Did you know that part of being a good Christian is being accepting and not judging others? You should mind your manners, I have been completely professional here. Last, I tell you, you have to learn to learn… Atheist do not hate god, we can’t hate something that does not exist (this is my belief, not trying to recruit here) Why do you put us all into one group? lets see, if I did that I would say that all Christians are idiots, like the group that carries signs at soldier funerals saying, “thank god for dead and maimed soldiers”, “God hates america” etc. That would not be fair. I’m a war veteran, and I take serious offense by that. I do not attack unless I am attacked first and you love to do that, Next time you call somebody a coward, make sure they haven’t lost a limb to save a life while fighting for their country first.

You obviously do “not” study the Bible or pursue the truth and why should you since there is nothing to believe,according to your words! Quote “(I have no idea what one thing has to do with the other)” Answer: If you are Homosexual then you are anti-Christ, anti-nature and possibly Atheist since no moral laws apply to you. Do as thou wilt,eh.Good luck with that! Your rejection of fact proven through evidence of prophesy and witnesses is your own choice,albeit a very poor one.Hosea 4:6 you need to look this one up ! Put your nose where it belongs-between the pages of Scripture and sit your butt in a Bible study once in a while.If you “Truly”,:Faithfully” seek the truth it will be revealed to you. Arguing with people who don’t have your beliefs will not get you closer to the truth and it will not be handed to you.You need to do some work! Or not.You will receive the mark of the Beast without even knowing it due to your ignorance and pompous wit. Jesus loves you and he wants you to love him and follow some basic rules, that’s all there is to it.It’s not to complicated once you have understanding and practice what He Preached.I hope you can drop you prejudices and doubts and open your mind and heart to the Gospel. God Bless and Peace be with you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7nEltyhaYM

Jason:
Interesting. You are more like the devil than you imagine. He quoted scripture too, when he tried to tempt Jesus in the wilderness. So, like your father, the devil, you know scripture, but apply it wrongly apply, like he does.

Haha! is all I can say at this point. It must be frustrating to have an atheist point out the wrongdoings of a christian when he goes against what his own doctrine commands of him. I understand Jason, just kneel down, clasp your hands together and talk to your ceiling for a while…. you’ll feel better in no time

I absolutely love your blog.. Pleasant colors & theme.
Did you make this web site yourself? Please reply back as I’m
planning to create my own personal site and would like to know where you got this from
or what the theme is called. Cheers!

Wow that was unusual. I just wrote an extremely long comment but after I clicked submit my comment
didn’t show up. Grrrr… well I’m not writing all that over again.
Regardless, just wanted to say wonderful blog!

This is directed toward Christians- We must not argue or insult those who don’t believe!! When we gave our lives to Jesus, was it because we were talked into it?? I don’t know about you but I gave my life to Jesus because of his mercy.

Read John chapter 10. Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice then follow him. If our voice is not like Jesus, how will we win these lost souls, his sheep that will one day convert? His voice is of love and compassion. This is what draws his true sheep. After we are converted we can focus on changing our lives and removing sin. We shouldn’t worry about those who won’t turn to Christ by lecturing them about sin and judgment. If the gospel message of Jesus and his love isn’t enough, no amount of talking will change their minds.

Why do we argue so much? Stop trying to make somebody believe, it is a matter of the heart. We will never be able to argue or discuss something enough to make someone believe.

We must focus on the true gospel message- There is forgiveness of sins and eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ, that he loved us so much he went through unspeakable torture and death for us so we can live!! After this, if someone refuses this message, there is nothing left for us to do but to love and show respect for others.

Save the arguing and debate for Christian group discussions about scripture. For unbelievers we are to give the true example of Jesus and spread his message with love and humility.

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Dr. O:
ok, let me start things off by saying I am a Dr. completed my theology studies and moved on to other firlds but I am quite versed in the “word” and I am and forever will be an Atheist. First things first, The article… This is a point of view or an “I believe ” article, meaning it is irrefutable as it is merely the opinion of the writer, who quotes texts that are themselves under suspicion of being false as his proof. it’s easy to prove he bible is real if you use the bible as your source of info. That being said the rapture among high ranking church officials and scholars is regarded as follows, 1,000 was the number of an Israeli legion, the result of multiplying 10x10x10, a perfect cube, something whole, multiplied by 144, or 12×12, simbolic of the the
faithful remnant of the old and new Israel…. not an actual numbered event. However, this is not a discution on biblical interpretation, as an article it shows incredible imagination and great interpretation skills, (only the interpretation is to fit certain beliefs) Also remember, this book was allegedly writen by an elderly man alone on exile on an island…Going coocoo if you ask me. Cheerio!

1) Noah’s Ark and the Flood.
You used 2 Peter to prove that God delivers His people out of God’s wrath. This verse is not talking about God’s wrath. It is talking about “afflictions” or “intense suffering,” out of which God is able to deliver. How can God deliver the godly “out of” His wrath, when they are never appointed to be in it in the first place?
Nor does it mean that He spares them afflictions and intense suffering, but only that He knows how to deliver them out of it. They may even die, but their deliverance comes at the resurrection. God often allows His people to experience horrible suffering.
Noah did not escape God’s wrath by being removed from the earth. He escaped God’s wrath by being “in Christ.” Peter tells us that the Flood represents baptism that saves us. In other words, Christ is the Ark, and those inside are buried with Him in baptism. When Jesus suffered the wrath of God for us on the cross, we also died in Him. As His death is our death, so His resurrection is our resurrection. Notice that the Ark landed on the Mountain on what would later become the Feast of Firstfruits. This is the moment our spirits are raised up and seated with Him in heavenly places.
Noah’s Ark is a type of Christ, the Temple. Both have three compartments and a Door. The uppermost compartment of the Ark has a window opened to heaven, which corresponds to the Most Holy Place, where we have access to the presence of God. The Ark is coated with pitch, which represents Christ, the blood-covered Mercy Seat.
There is no rapture in the story of Noah’s Flood.
The Door of the Ark is not a symbol used in reference to the rapture. The Door symbolizes a threshold between judgement and death, and new birth and life. It is a symbol of Christ Himself, through which we enter into and are safe in the presence of God. It is also used in reference to the preaching of the Gospel, and this is the “key” given to the church at Philadelphia. Many make the mistake of believing that the seven churches represent seven Church “ages.” The each message is not for a specific age, but rather for the entire Church, and throughout the book of Revelation specific references are made to all of them. The churches are all one indivisible Body, and all of the messages are for this Body. Each ends with “He who has an ear let him hear…”
Revelation 3:7 is a direct quote from Isaiah 22:22.
In Revelation 4 we see John taken through this open Door in order to give the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy. “…God gave to him, to show His servants what things it behoves to come to pass quickly; and He did signify it, having send through His messenger to His servant John.”
John tells us that he is our “brother, and fellow partner in the tribulation, and in the reign and in the endurance of Jesus Christ…because of the word of God and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ. Throughout the book of Revelation, we see the theme of patient endurance in tribulation.
To the church at Ephesus, John writes, “I known thy works and thy labor, and thy endurance…he who is overcoming, I will give the right to eat from the Tree of Life…”
To the church at Sardis, John writes, “Be not afraid of the things that you are about to suffer…you shall have tribulation ten days…he who is overcoming will not be hurt at all by the second death.”
To the church at Pergamos, he writes, “I know thy works and where you dwell — where the throne of the Adversary is — and that you hold fast My Name and have not denied My faith…he who is overcoming, I will give him to eat from the hidden Manna…”
To the church at Thyatira, John writes, “I have known thy works, and love and ministration, and faith, and endurance…he that is overcoming and keeping My works to the end, I will give him authority over the nations…”
To those at Sardis, John writes, “…I have not found thy works fulfilled before God. Remember, then, what you have received and heard, and keep it…if you do not watch, I will come upon thee as a thief, and you may not know what hour I will come upon thee.” He who is overcoming — this one — shall be clothed in white garments…”
To the church at Philadelphia, “I have known thy works…and did keep my word and did not deny My Name…because thy did keep the word of My endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is about to come upon the world, to test those dwelling on the earth. Lo, I come quickly, be holding fast, that no man may receive thy crown. He who is overcoming, I will make a pillar
“Because you have guarded (tereo) the word of My patience, I also will guard (tereo) you from the hour of temptation…” Guarding someone from something is not the same as keeping them from it. This verse can be interpreted in a variety of ways, and in no way proves we will be kept out of the time of great tribulation. The children of Israel were still in Egypt when the plagues were poured out. God made a distinction between them and the Egyptians.
It is those who have been trained by patient endurance who will be kept from temptation during this time of trial. James tells us that the man who endures trial, when he has stood the test, will receive the crown of life.
Jesus prayed “not that Thou should take (“airo”) them out of the world, but that Thou should guard them from (“tereo auto ek) the evil.” The word “airo” means, “to raise up, lift up, to raise from the ground, to bear away what has been raised…”
The word “tereo” can also be seen here:
“…to those sanctified in God the Father, and in Christ Jesus kept (“tereo”) Jude 1:1.
And John writes here: “We know that whosoever is born of God…keeps (“tereo”) himself and the evil one does not touch him” (I John 5:18).
To the church at Laodicea, John writes “…because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I am about to spit you out of My mouth…be zealous and reform…He who is overcoming, I will give to him to sit with Me on My throne…”
The book of Revelation is the story of a contest between the Seed of the Serpent and the Seed of the Woman. This contest will continue until the end, when “he who overcomes” will inherit all things.

2) Lot escapes Sodom.
Abraham represents the believer that builds his house on the Rock, while Lot represents the believer that loves the world. Abraham chose to live near Bethel (the House of God) in Canaan while Lot chose to live among the cities of the valley as far as Sodom. After the persecution by the men of Sodom, Lot offers his daughters to the men of Sodom. Instead of fleeing to the mountain as the angels instruct, he flees in fear to a cave and is molested by those same daughters. Sodom, a type of Babylon the Great, is destroyed on the very day that Lot flees.
Interestingly, the story of Lot sounds a Lot like the story of the wise and foolish virgins. Lot is outside the house with the men of Sodom pressing against the closed Door trying to enter the house in order to defile the two men. Lot offers his two virgin daughters to the men. The two men put forth their hands and pull Lot into the house and shut the Door. Those outside are smitten with blindness, just as the Foolish Virgins are unable to see in the darkness, because their Lamps have gone out. The small and the great weary themselves to find the Door. “Lo, the days are coming, an affirmation from the Lord God, and I have sent a famine into the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst of water, but of hearing the words of Jehovah. And they have wandered from sea to sea and from north even to east. They go to and fro to seek the word of Jehovah, and they do not find. In that day, do the fair virgins, and the young men, with thirst.”
And when morning comes, the two men press Lot to rise and take his family out, but he lingers. So the men take Lot and His family by force, “by the mercy of Jehovah,” and bring him out and cause him to rest outside the city. And Abraham rises in the early morning also, unto the place where he has stood before the Face of Jehovah.

The doorway is a significant theme through Scripture. It is the threshold dividing those to be judged from those to be protected (Genesis 19:9-11; cf. 7:16; Exodus 12:22-23). The doorway is the site of judgement and death, and rebirth and life.

The decisive judgment occurs just after sun rises. We see the same transition from darkness to light and the completion of divine judgment in other Exodus events. For instance, the darkness, the anticipation of the coming of the dawn, and the sun rise, is a pattern seen in Jacob’s wrestling at the Jabbok in Genesis 32:22-32 and also in the crossing of the Red Sea in Exodus 14:19-31.

Lot’s exodus takes a tragic turn, an ironic reversal of Abraham’s experience. In wanting to return to a place like Egypt, he lost all that he possessed to the judgment apportioned to Sodom. Abraham’s doorway becomes associated with new birth and life; Lot’s doorway becomes a place of death and destruction. The angels’ news of Isaac’s birth is met with laughter and Isaac is named for this laughter, a laughter of disbelief that will be transformed into the laughter of joy with the birth of a son. Lot’s warning to his sons-in-law is thought to be mere mockery (‘Isaac-ing’), something that will lead to their death. Abraham’s wife will be miraculously transformed into a fruitful mother; Lot’s wife becomes as barren as a pillar of salt. Rather than going to the mountain and joining with Abraham, as the angels instructed him, Lot decides to go to Zoar instead. Abraham ends up on the mountain, while Lot finally ends up in a cave (19:20), a place associated with death and the grave.

Lot’s story takes one last horrible twist. The father who was prepared to surrender his daughters to a crowd of rapists (v.8) was himself raped by his daughters (vv.30-38). Through these incestuous relationships, two people groups arise: the Moabites and the Ammonites. Incest, the turning of history back on itself, is the sad end of Lot’s story.

Abraham is a picture of those kept safe in Christ. Lot is a symbol of those who fall away and end up in darkness.

3) The Passover
In many ways, the story of Noah’s Ark is similar to the story of the Exodus. The houses of the Israelites represent Christ Himself. The Doorpost and Lintel represent Christ, into who we enter and are saved from death. We enter through the blood of the Lamb. This is our Passover. Those in their homes represent, again, those who are dead in Christ. Seven days later, on what would later become the Feast of Firstfruits, the Israelites are raised up out of the waters as Pharaoh and his armies are destroyed. The Israelites escape the wrath of God, but up until that time they are pursued. Passover is a picture of our salvation from slavery to sin and Satan. There are hints of end times judgments mixed into the story, but there is no PreTribulation rapture here. The Israelites leave Egypt, again, on the Feast of Firstfruits. Later, on Pentecost, when the trumpet waxes loud and long, we see God come down the Mountain and Moses go up. This happens after Moses builds an Altar of Twelve Stones and Aaron makes an image to the beast.

4) Moses Speaking to God on Mount Sinai.
Moses ascended Mount Sinai eight times. The first ascend was the call of Moses at the burning bush. One year later he makes his second ascent as the Covenant is offered to Israel. The elders agree to the Covenant, and Moses ascends a third time. During the ascent, the Lord tells Moses to prepare the Israelites for the third day, when He would come down in sight of all the people.
On the third day, Mount Sinai is covered in smoke and fire, and the earth shakes. There are voices, and lightnings, and a heavy cloud, with the sound of a trumpet very strong. As the trumpet is sounding, Moses speaks and God answers in a voice of thunder. God comes down and Moses goes up.
Throughout the book of Revelation we see this same picture.
“…out of the throne do proceed lightnings, and thunders, and voices, and seven lamps of fire are burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.”
“and the messenger took the censer and filled it with fire from the Altar, and did cast it to the earth, and there came voices and thunders and lightnings, and an earthquake.”
“And I saw another strong Angel coming down out of Heaven, arrayed in a cloud, and a rainbow upon the head, and His face as the sun, and His feet as pillars of fire, he cried with a great voice, and the seven thunders answered…”
“And when the seventh angel did sound, there came voices in Heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of the world have become those of the Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign to the ages of ages…and opened was the sanctuary of God in Heaven, and there was seen the Ark of His Covenant in His sanctuary, and did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.'”
“And the seventh angel poured out his vial to the air, and there came forth a great voice from the sanctuary of the Heaven, from the throne, saying, ‘It has come!'” And there came voices, and thunders, and lightnings, and a great earthquake…and every island did flee away, and the mountains were not found.
This may indeed be a Biblical foreshadow of the rapture, but nowhere in the story is there an escape from the wrath of God. That escape happened 50 days earlier when the children of Israel passed through the Sea.
The writer of the book of Hebrews writes these words:
For you have not come near to the Mountain touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness and darkness, and tempest, and a sound of a trumpet, and a voice of sayings, which those having heard did beg that a word might not be added to them, for they could not bear that which was commanded, ‘And if a beast may not touch the Mountain, it shall be stoned, or with an arrow shot through.'”
“But you came to Mount Zion, and to the City of the Living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the company and assembly of the first-born in Heaven enrolled, and to the judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and to a mediator of a New Covenant — Jesus, and to the blood of sprinkling…see to it that you not refuse Him who is speaking…whose voice the earth shook then, and now has promised, saying, ‘Yet once, I shake not only the earth, but also the heavens…”

5) The Consecration of the Priesthood
The priesthood and “all the company assembled,” gathers at the entrance of the Tabernacle. Nowhere does it say the Door is closed. They are to abide at the Door for seven days in order to keep watch, observe, celebrate, guard and protect the charge of the Lord, that they not die. PreTribulationists assume that every time the word “seven” is used, that it must refer to the so-called “Tribulation.” Nowhere is there a hint that this is a PreTribulational rapture. Just as Noah and his family were set apart at the Door to the Ark for seven days, so the Priests are set apart at the Door of the Tabernacle for seven days. Is it possible that the seven “days” represent the so-called seven church “ages?”

6) Rahab
Rahab lived in the wall of Jericho, and was taken out after seven trumpets. Two witnesses had previously gone to the house of Rahab and had lain down (“shakab” to lie down in death?) on the roof hidden in flax, which is used to made white linen, which Rahab had lain in order. Rahab caused the Two witnesses to be let down through a Window (“piercing in a wall”) by a Cord (“chebel” pain, sorrow, travail, birthpains.) Rahab tells the Two witnesses to go to the mountains and hide for three days, lest their pursuers (“radaph” persecutors) reach them, and then afterwards they may “go their way.” After coming to the Mountain for three days, the two witnesses turn back and “pass over,” and return to Joshua.
The Two witness tell Rahab to bind a scarlet thread to her window, to be a sign. The word “scarlet” is the word “shaniy.” The dye used to color this thread is made from the body of a worm called “coccus illicis,” or the crimson worm. When the time comes for this worm to have offspring, she attaches herself to a tree and covers herself with a hard shell. The worm cannot be removed without killing it. She then lays eggs under her and when they hatch, the young feed on her body. As the mother dies, she secretes a crimson dye that not only stains the wood she is attached to, but also her children. They colored scarlet for the rest of their lives.
After three days, the dead mother’s body turns white and falls to the ground. Hanging on the cross, Jesus said, “I am a worm and not a man.”
After sending the witnesses away, Rahab ties a scarlet line to her window. The word used here for “line,” is “tiqvah,” which means “hope, expectation.” In other words, the scarlet cord hung in the Window becomes Rahab’s blessed hope and expectation.
The word “Jordan” means “descender, and it represents lives. Just as the waters flow from their source in the Sea of Galilee (where the Word of Life ministered for three and a half years) to the Dead Sea, so are our lives. The crossing of the Jordan represents our crossing over from death to life. The priests entered into death and remained until all of the children of Israel had passed over.
The priests carrying the Ark entered into the Jordan, which overflowed its banks during the time of harvest, and the waters were cut off. After the children of Israel had passed over Twelve Stones are removed from the place where the priests had stood, and they are taken out and set up in the place where they were to lodge during the Night. Each removed one stone, according to the number of the tribes of Israel. The stones were to be a memorial to the sons of Israel. It was long after this time that John the baptist mentioned these stones, saying that from them, God could raise up children for Abraham.
And the people came up out of the Jordan on the tenth day of the first month, and for the first time, they celebrated Passover.
Joshua’s battle against Jericho is a type of the battle of Jesus against Babylon the Great.
Jericho is a great city, and Joshua must win this battle before his people can receive their inheritance in the Promised Land. The city is walled up against him, and is rich in merchandise from Shinar. In the city there lives a whore, whose house is marked by scarlet. Joshua sends to spies into the city to bring him a witness report. A divine warrior comes from Heaven with a drawn sword and Joshua falls at His feet and receives his orders for the battle. The people purify themselves in order to prepare for holy war. The war is marked by the sounding of seven trumpets followed by a shout. There are three sevens. The people march around the city for six days and on the seventh day the people circle the city seven times. The seventh time, the priests sound seven trumpets and the people shout. The city falls and Rahab and her family are rescued before people are put to the sword and the city is burned.
The Jordan is the boundary that marks the entrance into the inheritance. Joshua commissions the heads of the twelve tribes to build a monument from twelve stones taken from the river, to memorialize their crossing. The place of crossing is Gigal, where Joshua circumcises the people and where they celebrate Passover for the first time in the land. By removing their uncleanness, they are prepared to wage holy war. There is a woman, Rahab, who has been rescued from her whoredom and the judgment of the city. She is redeemed and will seek marriage to become one of the mothers of the kings of Judah. The window of her house is marked with scarlet and two spies are seen on the road leading into the city. Seven trumpets along with the Ark portend the judgment of the city.
In the book of Revelation, Jesus appears to John, who falls at His feet. In order to receive their inheritance the “kings of the rising sun” must cross the Euphrates on dry land. The Euphrates represents the waters on which the Harlot sits, the Great City Babylon the Great, and Jesus comes with a sword proceeding from His mouth as He comes to wage holy war against the Great City. His weapon is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Jesus gives instructions to His churches to leave behind their uncleanness and prepare themselves for this holy war, that in overcoming they might receive their inheritance in the Promised Land. The battle plan consists of a series of three sevens. Seven seals are opened and the seventh seal becomes seven trumpets. The seventh trumpet becomes seven bowls of judgement.
The two witnesses prophesy in the city, as a witness to the harlot. The judgement of the city begins when the seven trumpets are sounded. The city falls and is burned, but before this a voice from Heaven calls His people to “Come out of her.” Like Rahab, they are saved from the harlot city. Their inheritance becomes the bridal city, the New Jerusalem, built on the banks of the Crystal River, made of twelve foundations of precious stones.

7) God’s Own Prophecy
“Come My people, enter into your chambers and shut your doors; hide yourselves for a little moment until the indignation is past.”

It seems pretty unlikely that Jesus is present in heaven with His Bride, while at the same time is “coming out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth.” If Jesus is in the Wedding Chamber with His Bride during the seven years, then He cannot possibly be punishing the world during that time, since that would require His “coming out of His place.” Jesus comes out of His place for “as it were, a little moment,” after the time of tribulation. That is when the Bride is hidden.

And in case you haven’t noticed, it is Isaiah speaking in these verses, not the Lord. “My people” refers to Isaiah’s people (just as “your people,” refers to the nation of Israel in Daniel 9).
“Like a woman with child…so WE (Israel) were, O Lord; WE were with child, WE writhed, WE have as it were brought forth wind. WE (Israel) have wrought no deliverance in the earth and the inhabitants of the earth have not fallen. THY dead (those belonging to the Lord) shall live, together with MY (Isaiah’s) dead body (Jesus’ body rose 2000 years before this time) THEY shall arise. Awake and sing, YOU that dwell in the dust; for THY dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out her dead.
“Come, MY (Isaiah’s) people, enter THOU into THY chambers, and shut the doors about THEE; hide THYSELF as it were for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold the Lord (notice it does not say “For behold I come…”) cometh out of HIS place (it does not say “…cometh out of My place…”) to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; (nor does it say …”punish Jacob for his iniquity…”); the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.”
Isaiah is telling his people to enter their chambers, for the Lord is coming. Now, if this is a reference to the rapture, and Christ is in the wedding chamber with His bride, it seems unlikely and rather impossible for Him to “come out of His place” to punish the inhabitants of the earth. If Christ is in the wedding chamber with His Bride during the seven year time of tribulation, then the tribulation is obviously not the time when Christ is punishing the world. That time of punishment is “as it were a little while” AFTER the tribulation, when He actually comes out of His place at the great battle of the Lord Almighty, otherwise known as Armageddom.

8) An added bonus non-proof
“For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ…”

To the church at Sardis, who has a reputation of being alive, but is dead, John writes, “Watch, and strengthen the things that are about to die…if you do not watch, I will come upon thee as a thief…He who is overcoming –this one– shall be arrayed in white garments…”

Paul tells us that the Day of the Lord comes as a thief. John tells us exactly where this happens. “And the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates and dried up was its water, that the way of the kings of the rising of the sun will be prepared…Lo, I do come as a thief in the night; happy is he who is watching, and keeping his garments, that he may not be naked…”

“and the seventh angel did pour out his bowl into the air and there came forth a great voice from the sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne saying, ‘It has come!'”

And Peter has this to say: “It will come–the day of the Lord–as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away…and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

And Jesus…

“And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather the elect…heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away…and concerning that day and the hour, no one has known…”

“And know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch the thief came, he would have watched…”

“Watch therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape (flee away from, to flee out of, to seek safety in flight) all these things that are about to come to pass (ginomai), and to stand (“to cause or make to stand, to make firm, to cause a person to keep his place, to escape in safety”) in the presence of the Son of Man.

Incidentally, the word “ginomai,” means “to become, to come into existence, to receive being, to come to pass, to appear in history, of men appearing in public.” It is the same word that is used in II Thessalonians 2.

“Let no man man deceive you in any way, for except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…”

“And now you know what restrains that he might be revealed in his time, for the mystery of iniquity working does work, only he who now restrains will until he (“ginomai” comes into existence, appears in history, appears in public) (“ek” from the (“mesos” midst, middle.) And then shall that lawless one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth.

Neither the Holy Spirit nor the Church is “taken out of the way.” The phrase is talking about the man of sin appearing in history, or in public.

Of course, this appearing of the man of sin is related to the apostasy of the Church. Jesus said that we are the salt of the earth (and the light of the world) and that if the salt loses its flavor (or the lamp runs out of oil), it becomes good for nothing except to be trampled by men. This trampling of the Holy City can be seen in Revelation 11. John is told to measure the stature of the Church, but is told to leave out the outer court, for it is given to be trampled by the gentiles until their time is fulfilled. Later in the book, we see that the Holy City, the Bride, the New Jerusalem, has made herself ready.

Many see Luke 21:36 as proof of a PreTribulation rapture. Did you ever notice that Jesus had just finished telling his disciples what they would suffer?

“But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you sill be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of My name.”
“You will be betrayed even by your parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. Every one will hate you because of Me.”
“Stand firm and you will win life.”
So, tell me, how is it that Jesus is telling them to pray that they are worthy to escape these things, when He just finished telling them that they would not escape them, but indeed suffer them and have to “stand firm” through them to win life?
Those things that Jesus was referring to were the events after the signs in the sun, moon and stars in verse 25. Notice that the subject changes at this point for “you,” to “they”. These are the same signs that occur just before the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24. Jesus was also referring to the “carousing, drunkeness, and the anxieties of life, which could catch them in a trap if they did not watch and pray. We are to watch and pray, lest we fall into temptation by the cares and pleasures of life. Jesus also spoke of these things in the parable of the sower, warning how the seed could be snatched from our hearts because of persecution, the worries and cares of life, and the deceitfulness of wealth. This is what the “apostasy,” and the “mark of the beast” is all about. Trusting in the flesh, or loving not our lives unto death.
Jesus told those listening that they would suffer persecution and even death, but not a hair on their heads would be harmed.
The flesh counts for nothing, but PreTribulationist seem to think that the flesh is everything. God is not concerned with our flesh, but our souls. Satan may kill the body, but we are safe in Christ.

1) Noah’s Ark and the Flood.
You used 2 Peter to prove that God delivers His people out of God’s wrath. This verse is not talking about God’s wrath. It is talking about “afflictions” or “intense suffering,” out of which God is able to deliver. How can God deliver the godly “out of” His wrath, when they are never appointed to be in it in the first place?
Nor does it mean that He spares them afflictions and intense suffering, but only that He knows how to deliver them out of it. They may even die, but their deliverance comes at the resurrection. God often allows His people to experience horrible suffering. But the flesh counts for nothing.
Noah did not escape God’s wrath by being removed from the earth. He escaped God’s wrath by being “in Christ.” Peter tells us that the Flood represents baptism that saves us. In other words, Christ is the Ark, and those inside are buried with Him in baptism. When Jesus suffered the wrath of God for us on the cross, we also died in Him. As His death is our death, so His resurrection is our resurrection. Notice that the Ark landed on the Mountain on what would later become the Feast of Firstfruits. This is the moment our spirits are raised up and seated with Him in heavenly places.
Noah’s Ark is a type of Christ, the Temple. Both have three compartments and a Door. The uppermost compartment of the Ark has a window opened to heaven, which corresponds to the Most Holy Place, where we have access to the presence of God. The Ark is coated with pitch, which represents Christ, the blood-covered Mercy Seat.
There is no PreTribulational rapture in the story of Noah’s Flood. The rapture is after seven days of Noah, his family and all kinds of clean and unclean beasts (nations) entering into the Ark.
The Door of the Ark is not a symbol used in reference to the rapture. The Door symbolizes a threshold between judgement and death, and salvation and life. It is a symbol of Christ Himself, through which we enter into and are safe in the presence of God. It is also used in reference to the preaching of the Gospel, and this is the “key” given to the church at Philadelphia. Many make the mistake of believing that the seven churches represent seven Church “ages.” The each message is not for a specific age, but rather for the entire Church, and throughout the book of Revelation specific references are made to all of them. The churches are all one indivisible Body, and all of the messages are for this Body. Each ends with “He who has an ear let him hear…”
Revelation 3:7 is a direct quote from Isaiah 22:22.
In Revelation 4 we see John taken through this open Door in order to give the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy. “…God gave to him, to show His servants what things it behoves to come to pass quickly; and He did signify it, having send through His messenger to His servant John.”
John tells us that he is our “brother, and fellow partner in the tribulation, and in the reign and in the endurance of Jesus Christ…because of the word of God and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ. Throughout the book of Revelation, we see the theme of patient endurance in tribulation.
To the church at Ephesus, John writes, “I known thy works and thy labor, and thy endurance…he who is overcoming, I will give the right to eat from the Tree of Life…”
To the church at Sardis, John writes, “Be not afraid of the things that you are about to suffer…you shall have tribulation ten days…he who is overcoming will not be hurt at all by the second death.”
To the church at Pergamos, he writes, “I know thy works and where you dwell — where the throne of the Adversary is — and that you hold fast My Name and have not denied My faith…he who is overcoming, I will give him to eat from the hidden Manna…”
To the church at Thyatira, John writes, “I have known thy works, and love and ministration, and faith, and endurance…he that is overcoming and keeping My works to the end, I will give him authority over the nations…”
To those at Sardis, John writes, “…I have not found thy works fulfilled before God. Remember, then, what you have received and heard, and keep it…if you do not watch, I will come upon thee as a thief, and you may not know what hour I will come upon thee.” He who is overcoming — this one — shall be clothed in white garments…”
To the church at Philadelphia, “I have known thy works…and did keep my word and did not deny My Name…because thy did keep the word of My endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is about to come upon the world, to test those dwelling on the earth. Lo, I come quickly, be holding fast, that no man may receive thy crown. He who is overcoming, I will make a pillar
“Because you have guarded (tereo) the word of My patience, I also will guard (tereo) you from the hour of temptation…” Guarding someone from something is not the same as keeping them from it. This verse can be interpreted in a variety of ways, and in no way proves we will be kept out of the time of great tribulation. The children of Israel were still in Egypt when the plagues were poured out. God made a distinction between them and the Egyptians.
It is those who have been trained by patient endurance who will be kept from temptation during this time of trial. James tells us that the man who endures trial, when he has stood the test, will receive the crown of life.
Jesus prayed “not that Thou should take (“airo”) them out of the world, but that Thou should guard them from (“tereo auto ek) the evil.” The word “airo” means, “to raise up, lift up, to raise from the ground, to bear away what has been raised…”
The word “tereo” can also be seen here:
“…to those sanctified in God the Father, and in Christ Jesus kept (“tereo”) Jude 1:1.
And John writes here: “We know that whosoever is born of God…keeps (“tereo”) himself and the evil one does not touch him” (I John 5:18).
To the church at Laodicea, John writes “…because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I am about to spit you out of My mouth…be zealous and reform…He who is overcoming, I will give to him to sit with Me on My throne…”
The book of Revelation is the story of a contest between the Seed of the Serpent and the Seed of the Woman. This contest will continue until the end, when “he who overcomes” will inherit all things.

2) Lot escapes Sodom.
The Story of Lot is taken out of context to prove a PreTribulational rapture. Abraham represents the believer that builds his house on the Rock, while Lot represents the believer that loves the world. Abraham chose to live near Bethel (the House of God) in Canaan while Lot chose to live among the cities of the valley as far as Sodom. After the persecution by the men of Sodom, Lot offers his daughters to the men of Sodom. Instead of fleeing to the mountain as the angels instruct, he flees in fear to a cave and is molested by those same daughters. Sodom, a type of Babylon the Great, is destroyed on the very day that Lot flees.
Interestingly, the story of Lot sounds a Lot like the story of the wise and foolish virgins. Lot is outside the house with the men of Sodom pressing against the closed Door trying to enter the house in order to defile the two men. Lot offers his two virgin daughters to the men. The two men put forth their hands and pull Lot into the house and shut the Door. Those outside are smitten with blindness, just as the Foolish Virgins are unable to see in the darkness, because their Lamps have gone out. The small and the great weary themselves to find the Door. “Lo, the days are coming, an affirmation from the Lord God, and I have sent a famine into the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst of water, but of hearing the words of Jehovah. And they have wandered from sea to sea and from north even to east. They go to and fro to seek the word of Jehovah, and they do not find. In that day, do the fair virgins, and the young men, with thirst.”
And when morning comes, the two men press Lot to rise and take his family out, but he lingers. So the men take Lot and His family by force, “by the mercy of Jehovah,” and bring him out and cause him to rest outside the city. And Abraham rises in the early morning also, unto the place where he has stood before the Face of Jehovah.

The doorway is a significant theme through Scripture. It is the threshold dividing those to be judged from those to be protected (Genesis 19:9-11; cf. 7:16; Exodus 12:22-23). The doorway is the site of judgement and death, and rebirth and life.

The decisive judgment occurs just after sun rises. We see the same transition from darkness to light and the completion of divine judgment in other Exodus events. For instance, the darkness, the anticipation of the coming of the dawn, and the sun rise, is a pattern seen in Jacob’s wrestling at the Jabbok in Genesis 32:22-32 and also in the crossing of the Red Sea in Exodus 14:19-31.

Lot’s exodus takes a tragic turn, an ironic reversal of Abraham’s experience. In wanting to return to a place like Egypt, he lost all that he possessed to the judgment apportioned to Sodom. Abraham’s doorway becomes associated with new birth and life; Lot’s doorway becomes a place of death and destruction. The angels’ news of Isaac’s birth is met with laughter and Isaac is named for this laughter, a laughter of disbelief that will be transformed into the laughter of joy with the birth of a son. Lot’s warning to his sons-in-law is thought to be mere mockery (‘Isaac-ing’), something that will lead to their death. Abraham’s wife will be miraculously transformed into a fruitful mother; Lot’s wife becomes as barren as a pillar of salt. Rather than going to the mountain and joining with Abraham, as the angels instructed him, Lot decides to go to Zoar instead. Abraham ends up on the mountain, while Lot finally ends up in a cave (19:20), a place associated with death and the grave.

Lot’s story takes one last horrible twist. The father who was prepared to surrender his daughters to a crowd of rapists is himself raped by his daughters. Through these incestuous relationships, two people groups arise: the Moabites and the Ammonites. Incest, the turning of history back on itself, is the sad end of Lot’s story.

Abraham is a picture of those kept safe in Christ. Lot is a symbol of those who fall away

3) The Passover
In many ways, the story of Noah’s Ark is similar to the story of the Exodus. The houses of the Israelites represent Christ Himself. The Doorpost and Lintel represent Christ, into who we enter and are saved from death. We enter through the blood of the Lamb. This is our Passover. Those in their homes represent, again, those who are dead in Christ. Seven days later, on what would later become the Feast of Firstfruits, the Israelites are raised up out of the waters as Pharaoh and his armies are destroyed. The Israelites escape the wrath of God, but up until that time they are pursued. Passover is a picture of our salvation from slavery to sin and Satan. There are hints of end times judgments mixed into the story, but there is no PreTribulation rapture here. The Israelites leave Egypt, again, on the Feast of Firstfruits. Later, on Pentecost, when the trumpet waxes loud and long, we see God come down the Mountain and Moses go up. This happens after Moses builds an Altar of Twelve Stones and Aaron makes an image to the beast.

4) Moses Speaking to God on Mount Sinai.
Moses ascended Mount Sinai eight times. The first ascend was the call of Moses at the burning bush. One year later he makes his second ascent as the Covenant is offered to Israel. The elders agree to the Covenant, and Moses ascends a third time. During the ascent, the Lord tells Moses to prepare the Israelites for the third day, when He would come down in sight of all the people.
On the third day, Mount Sinai is covered in smoke and fire, and the earth shakes. There are voices, and lightnings, and a heavy cloud, with the sound of a trumpet very strong. As the trumpet is sounding, Moses speaks and God answers in a voice of thunder. God comes down and Moses goes up.
Throughout the book of Revelation we see this same picture.
“…out of the throne do proceed lightnings, and thunders, and voices, and seven lamps of fire are burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.”
“and the messenger took the censer and filled it with fire from the Altar, and did cast it to the earth, and there came voices and thunders and lightnings, and an earthquake.”
“And I saw another strong Angel coming down out of Heaven, arrayed in a cloud, and a rainbow upon the head, and His face as the sun, and His feet as pillars of fire, he cried with a great voice, and the seven thunders answered…”
“And when the seventh angel did sound, there came voices in Heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of the world have become those of the Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign to the ages of ages…and opened was the sanctuary of God in Heaven, and there was seen the Ark of His Covenant in His sanctuary, and did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.'”
“And the seventh angel poured out his vial to the air, and there came forth a great voice from the sanctuary of the Heaven, from the throne, saying, ‘It has come!'” And there came voices, and thunders, and lightnings, and a great earthquake…and every island did flee away, and the mountains were not found.
This may indeed be a Biblical foreshadow of the rapture, but nowhere in the story is there an escape from the wrath of God. That escape happened 50 days earlier when the children of Israel passed through the Sea.
The writer of the book of Hebrews writes these words:
For you have not come near to the Mountain touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness and darkness, and tempest, and a sound of a trumpet, and a voice of sayings, which those having heard did beg that a word might not be added to them, for they could not bear that which was commanded, ‘And if a beast may not touch the Mountain, it shall be stoned, or with an arrow shot through.'”
“But you came to Mount Zion, and to the City of the Living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the company and assembly of the first-born in Heaven enrolled, and to the judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and to a mediator of a New Covenant — Jesus, and to the blood of sprinkling…see to it that you not refuse Him who is speaking…whose voice the earth shook then, and now has promised, saying, ‘Yet once, I shake not only the earth, but also the heavens…”

5) The Consecration of the Priesthood
The priesthood and “all the company assembled,” gathers at the entrance of the Tabernacle. Nowhere does it say the Door is closed. They are to abide at the Door for seven days in order to keep watch, observe, celebrate, guard and protect the charge of the Lord, that they not die. PreTribulationists assume that every time the word “seven” is used, that it must refer to the so-called “Tribulation.” Nowhere is there a hint that this is a PreTribulational rapture. Just as Noah and his family were set apart at the Door to the Ark for seven days, so the Priests are set apart at the Door of the Tabernacle for seven days. Is it possible that the seven “days” represent the so-called seven church “ages?”

6) Rahab
Rahab lived in the wall of Jericho, and was taken out after seven trumpets. Two witnesses had previously gone to the house of Rahab and had lain down (“shakab” to lie down in death?) on the roof hidden in flax, which is used to made white linen, which Rahab had lain in order. Rahab caused the Two witnesses to be let down through a Window (“piercing in a wall”) by a Cord (“chebel” pain, sorrow, travail, birthpains.) Rahab tells the Two witnesses to go to the mountains and hide for three days, lest their pursuers (“radaph” persecutors) reach them, and then afterwards they may “go their way.” After coming to the Mountain for three days, the two witnesses turn back and “pass over,” and return to Joshua.
The Two witness tell Rahab to bind a scarlet thread to her window, to be a sign. The word “scarlet” is the word “shaniy.” The dye used to color this thread is made from the body of a worm called “coccus illicis,” or the crimson worm. When the time comes for this worm to have offspring, she attaches herself to a tree and covers herself with a hard shell. The worm cannot be removed without killing it. She then lays eggs under her and when they hatch, the young feed on her body. As the mother dies, she secretes a crimson dye that not only stains the wood she is attached to, but also her children. They colored scarlet for the rest of their lives.
After three days, the dead mother’s body turns white and falls to the ground. Hanging on the cross, Jesus said, “I am a worm and not a man.”
After sending the witnesses away, Rahab ties a scarlet line to her window. The word used here for “line,” is “tiqvah,” which means “hope, expectation.” In other words, the scarlet cord becomes Rahab’s blessed hope and expectation.
The word “Jordan” means “descender, and it represents lives. Just as the waters flow from their source in the Sea of Galilee (where the Word of Life ministered for three and a half years) to the Dead Sea, so are our lives. The crossing of the Jordan represents our crossing over from death to life. The priests entered into death and remained until all of the children of Israel had passed over.
The priests carrying the Ark entered into the Jordan, which overflowed its banks during the time of harvest, and the waters were cut off. After the children of Israel had passed over Twelve Stones are removed from the place where the priests had stood, and they are taken out and set up in the place where they were to lodge during the Night. Each removed one stone, according to the number of the tribes of Israel. The stones were to be a memorial to the sons of Israel. It was long after this time that John the baptist mentioned these stones, saying that from them, God could raise up children for Abraham.
And the people came up out of the Jordan on the tenth day of the first month, and for the first time, they celebrated Passover.
Joshua’s battle against Jericho is a type of the battle of Jesus against Babylon the Great.
Jericho is a great city, and Joshua must win this battle before his people can receive their inheritance in the Promised Land. The city is walled up against him, and is rich in merchandise from Shinar. In the city there lives a whore, whose house is marked by scarlet. Joshua sends to spies into the city to bring him a witness report. A divine warrior comes from Heaven with a drawn sword and Joshua falls at His feet and receives his orders for the battle. The people purify themselves in order to prepare for holy war. The war is marked by the sounding of seven trumpets followed by a shout. There are three sevens. The people march around the city for six days and on the seventh day the people circle the city seven times. The seventh time, the priests sound seven trumpets and the people shout. The city falls and Rahab and her family are rescued before people are put to the sword and the city is burned.
The Jordan is the boundary that marks the entrance into the inheritance. Joshua commissions the heads of the twelve tribes to build a monument from twelve stones taken from the river, to memorialize their crossing. The place of crossing is Gigal, where Joshua circumcises the people and where they celebrate Passover for the first time in the land. By removing their uncleanness, they are prepared to wage holy war. There is a woman, Rahab, who has been rescued from her whoredom and the judgment of the city. She is redeemed and will seek marriage to become one of the mothers of the kings of Judah. The window of her house is marked with scarlet and two spies are seen on the road leading into the city. Seven trumpets along with the Ark portend the judgment of the city.
In the book of Revelation, Jesus appears to John, who falls at His feet. In order to receive their inheritance the “kings of the rising sun” must cross the Euphrates on dry land. The Euphrates represents the waters on which the Harlot sits, the Great City Babylon the Great, and Jesus comes with a sword proceeding from His mouth as He comes to wage holy war against the Great City. His weapon is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Jesus gives instructions to His churches to leave behind their uncleanness and prepare themselves for this holy war, that in overcoming they might receive their inheritance in the Promised Land. The battle plan consists of a series of three sevens. Seven seals are opened and the seventh seal becomes seven trumpets. The seventh trumpet becomes seven bowls of judgement.
The two witnesses prophesy in the city, as a witness to the harlot. The judgement of the city begins when the seven trumpets are sounded. The city falls and is burned, but before this a voice from Heaven calls His people to “Come out of her.” Like Rahab, they are saved from the harlot city. Their inheritance becomes the bridal city, the New Jerusalem, built on the banks of the Crystal River, made of twelve foundations of precious stones.

7) God’s Own Prophecy
“Come My people, enter into your chambers and shut your doors; hide yourselves for a little moment until the indignation is past.”

And it seems pretty unlikely that Jesus is present in heaven with His Bride, while at the same time is “coming out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth.” If Jesus is in the Wedding Chamber with His Bride during the seven years, then He cannot possibly be punishing the world during that time, since that would require His “coming out of His place.” Jesus comes out of His place for “as it were, a little moment,” after the time of tribulation. That is when the Bride is hidden.

And in case you haven’t noticed, it is Isaiah speaking in these verses, not the Lord. “My people” refers to Isaiah’s people (just as “your people,” refers to the nation of Israel in Daniel 9).
“Like a woman with child…so WE (Israel) were, O Lord; WE were with child, WE writhed, WE have as it were brought forth wind. WE (Israel) have wrought no deliverance in the earth and the inhabitants of the earth have not fallen. THY dead (those belonging to the Lord) shall live, together with MY (Isaiah’s) dead body (Jesus’ body rose 2000 years before this time) THEY shall arise. Awake and sing, YOU that dwell in the dust; for THY dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out her dead.
“Come, MY (Isaiah’s) people, enter THOU into THY chambers, and shut the doors about THEE; hide THYSELF as it were for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold the Lord (notice it does not say “For behold I come…”) cometh out of HIS place (it does not say “…cometh out of My place…”) to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; (nor does it say …”punish Jacob for his iniquity…”); the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.”

Isaiah is telling his people to enter their chambers, for the Lord is coming. Now, if this is a reference to the rapture, and Christ is in the wedding chamber with His bride, it seems unlikely and rather impossible for Him to “come out of His place” to punish the inhabitants of the earth. If Christ is in the wedding chamber with His Bride during the seven year time of tribulation, then the tribulation is obviously not the time when Christ is punishing the world. That time of punishment is “as it were a little while” AFTER the tribulation, when He actually comes out of His place at the great battle of the Lord Almighty, otherwise known as Armageddom.

8) An added bonus non-proof
“For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ…”

To the church at Sardis, who has a reputation of being alive, but is dead, John writes, “Watch, and strengthen the things that are about to die…if you do not watch, I will come upon thee as a thief…He who is overcoming –this one– shall be arrayed in white garments…”

Paul tells us that the Day of the Lord comes as a thief. John tells us exactly where this happens. “And the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates and dried up was its water, that the way of the kings of the rising of the sun will be prepared…Lo, I do come as a thief in the night; happy is he who is watching, and keeping his garments, that he may not be naked…”

“and the seventh angel did pour out his bowl into the air and there came forth a great voice from the sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne saying, ‘It has come!'”

And Peter has this to say: “It will come–the day of the Lord–as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away…and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

And Jesus…

“And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather the elect…heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away…and concerning that day and the hour, no one has known…”

“And know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch the thief came, he would have watched…”

“Watch therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape (flee away from, to flee out of, to seek safety in flight) all these things that are about to come to pass (ginomai), and to stand (“to cause or make to stand, to make firm, to cause a person to keep his place, to escape in safety”) in the presence of the Son of Man.

Incidentally, the word “ginomai,” means “to become, to come into existence, to receive being, to come to pass, to appear in history, of men appearing in public.” It is the same word that is used in II Thessalonians 2.

“Let no man man deceive you in any way, for except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…”

“And now you know what restrains that he might be revealed in his time, for the mystery of iniquity working does work, only he who now restrains will until he (“ginomai” comes into existence, appears in history, appears in public) (“ek” from the (“mesos” midst, middle.) And then shall that lawless one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth.

Neither the Holy Spirit nor the Church is “taken out of the way.” The phrase is talking about the man of sin appearing in history, or in public.

Of course, this appearing of the man of sin is related to the apostasy of the Church. Jesus said that we are the salt of the earth (and the light of the world) and that if the salt loses its flavor (or the lamp runs out of oil), it becomes good for nothing except to be trampled by men. This trampling of the Holy City can be seen in Revelation 11. John is told to measure the stature of the Church, but is told to leave out the outer court, for it is given to be trampled by the gentiles until their time is fulfilled. Later in the book, we see that the Holy City, the Bride, the New Jerusalem, has made herself ready.

Many see Luke 21:36 as proof of a PreTribulation rapture. Did you ever notice that Jesus had just finished telling his disciples what they would suffer?

“But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you sill be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of My name.”
“You will be betrayed even by your parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. Every one will hate you because of Me.”
“Stand firm and you will win life.”
So, tell me, how is it that Jesus is telling them to pray that they are worthy to escape these things, when He just finished telling them that they would not escape them, but indeed suffer them and have to “stand firm” through them to win life?
Those things that Jesus was referring to were the events after the signs in the sun, moon and stars in verse 25. Notice that the subject changes at this point for “you,” to “they”. These are the same signs that occur just before the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24. Jesus was also referring to the “carousing, drunkeness, and the anxieties of life, which could catch them in a trap if they did not watch and pray. We are to watch and pray, lest we fall into temptation by the cares and pleasures of life. Jesus also spoke of these things in the parable of the sower, warning how the seed could be snatched from our hearts because of persecution, the worries and cares of life, and the deceitfulness of wealth. This is what the “apostasy,” and the “mark of the beast” is all about. Trusting in the flesh, or loving not our lives unto death.
Jesus told those listening that they would suffer persecution and even death, but not a hair on their heads would be harmed. He told them that they would suffer persecution and even death, but they would escape out of these and stand before Him.
The flesh counts for nothing, but PreTribulationist seem to think that the flesh is everything. God is not concerned with our flesh, but our souls. Satan may kill the body, but our lives are safe in Christ.
PtreTribulationist insist that they will be raptured out of tribulation because Jesus took the wrath of God for them on the cross. How is it that those saved by the blood of the Lamb during the tribulation must suffer the wrath of God? Did Jesus not die for them, too? How are PreTribulationists blind to this obvious contradiction?
The Bible nowhere teaches a PreTribulational rapture. It is a presupposition, an a priori assumption based on the false doctrine of dispensationalism, and Scripture is wrested out of context in order to support it. (According to PreTribbers, Matthew 24 is not for the Church. Huh? Where does the Bible state this? Agains, the PreTribulation rapture is assumed, and them Matthew 24 is made to fit the belief. PreTribbers calm that the Church is not mentioned after Revelation 4, so it can’t be in the “tribulation.” Huh? Again, a PreTrib rapture is assumed, and the book of Revelation is made to conform to this belief. The Church is not mentioned in chapter 19, when Jesus returns with His armies. Does this mean those armies clothed in bright linen, clean and white are not the Church? Not according to PreTribbers. They want to have their cake and eat it, too. PreTribulationists claim to interpret the Bible literally, but the only raptured that is literally taught in the Bible is PostTribulation/Prewrath. It is taught by Jesus and confirmed by Paul, John, Peter, Joel and Isaiah.
First, persecution.
Second, a falling away and the revealing of the man of sin.
Third a time of great tribulation.
Fourth, the darkening of the heavenly bodies for an unspecified period of time, after the tribulation.
Fifth, the gathering of the elect.
Sixth, the pouring out of God’s wrath.
Seventh, the glorious return of Christ with His saints, to the final battle, to save a remnant of Israel.
Eighth, a Wedding Feast (and another feast for the birds of prey who feast on the dead).
There is one Olive Tree. The tame branches are the remnant of Israel saved by grace. The Gentiles are grafted in and become “one new man” is Christ, members of the Commonwealth of Israel, and sharers in the Promises given to Abraham. “All Israel” is saved by being grafted into the SAME tree that the Gentiles are grafted into…THE CHURCH, the Body of Christ. “God, knowing that He would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, ‘In your Seed (Christ), all nations will be blessed. The first chapter of Ephesians tells us how we, Jew and Gentile, are blessed in Christ. The book of Hebrews tells us that the Old Testament saints were all saved through faith, and that together we will be made perfect with them, not seven years apart.

Jesus tells us that the darkening of the sun, moon and stars, and the shaking of the heavenly bodies occurs “after the tribulation of those days.” The “tribulation” refers to the time of trouble not equaled from the beginning of the world. John tells us that the darkening of the sun, moon and stars and the shaking of the heavenly bodies happens at the Sixth Seal. Therefore, everything prior to the Sixth Seal is NOT wrath. The great tribualtion is pictured in the Fifth Seal. The wrath of God begins after the Sixth Seal.
The harvest, the Bowls of wrath, and the fall of Babylon all occur AFTER the tribulation.
PreTribulationists don’t seem to understand the wrath of God. God is merciful, not wanting any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. When all chance of repentance is past, when a person has hardened their heart in rebellion, God gives them over to their rebellion.
The Trumpet judgements are poured put on a third of the earth and heavens, and on those who have taken the mark. The other two-thirds are mot affected, for God is given them time to repent. When every opportunity to repent has been rejected, THEN God will pour out His wrath on the unrepentant, and NONE will escape.
God knows His own, therefore the time of Jacob’s trouble is NOT the wrath of God. If it was, they would not escape, but Jeremiah tells us that Jacob will be saved out of it.
Pharaoh is an example of one who, through the 10 plagues, was given time to repent. When finally Pharaoh hardened his heart, God also hardened it and pours out His wrath on him and his armies.