Many years ago, when I was exposed to anti-catholic protestant literature, I decided that the claim that the Church stopped existing when it apostates from the reign of Constantine to the Protestant Reformation or the formation of the Baptist Church (for the Landmarkists) denied the scriptures where Jesus promised the Church would not fall. Expand that from just the Catholic Church to all professing denominations. According to universalism, the Church went into error and taught a false gospel of a hell that only existed in pagan imaginations. How would universalists explain the Church's falling away from truth and believing the lie of eternal torment?

That's not so easy to explain. It's just like societies gradually changes when large amounts of foreigners pour in.Christianity started with very strong Jewish roots. For most early Christians it simply was being a Jew and replacing a few Jewish things with new Christians things. Christians even attended to regular synagoges and listened to sermons of 100% Jewish Rabbis.Jews all looked at Christianity with Jewish eyes. They saw similarities with what they did before when they were Jews. But more and more gentiles got converted and they looked at Christianity with pagan eyes. That was no problem but there are always situations that aren't described in the Bible. Or aren't clear enough. A good example is that the Pharisees and Saducians had major disagreements. They didn't even agree when Passover was.So (often unschooled) Jews and genitles mixed and discussed and paganism crept in. The problem is that there is very little documentation of the early days. Certainly not of insignificant people that just fellowshipped a bit. But if we read stuff of the church fathers it gets clear they were constantly in debate with pagan theologians. While the churchfathers disagreed on several/many points they all firmly agreed on the UR points. (the chairmen/leader dunno the correct word in English) of the first synodes were men with very strong UR views.With Constantine thoses debates ended. He enforced his views with the sword. Council members who didn't agree were put under great pressure, got exiled, or killed. From that point on paganism was enforced.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 10:48:44 AM by WhiteWings »

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Interesting, both the OP and WW's comments. I agree that it's not easy to explain (or understand).

As one who believes God is working HIS plan, I'd have to say error and falling away must be part of His plan. Some teach, what seems to me to be about as good as any explanation, that He's bringing us through dark times so we will be able to truly appreciate His Light.

I'd put the error and falling away right up there with Adam, Eve, and the "forbidden" fruit, in that, was God surprised? Or did He have more to do with than that?

Also, I beleve He's always had a remnant, a group who believed in Him and kept the faith. That's the church - the ecclesia, the called out ones, not an organization. Many have fallen, but the true church has not - they are the Sons of God.

What difference does it make that one is celebrating the birth of Jesus on the wrong day with pagan accoutrements like lighted trees?

All you have to do is look at Christmas carols to know what is in the hearts of those celebrating it.

I also agree with Jab. The true church of believers existed, does exist, and will exist throughout the age.

O little town of BethlehemHow still we see thee lieAbove thy deep and dreamless sleepThe silent stars go byYet in thy dark streets shinethThe everlasting LightThe hopes and fears of all the yearsAre met in thee tonight

For Christ is born of MaryAnd gathered all aboveWhile mortals sleep, the angels keepTheir watch of wondering loveO morning stars togetherProclaim the holy birthAnd praises sing to God the KingAnd Peace to men on earth

How silently, how silentlyThe wondrous gift is given!So God imparts to human heartsThe blessings of His heaven.No ear may his His coming,But in this world of sin,Where meek souls will receive him still,The dear Christ enters in.

O holy Child of BethlehemDescend to us, we prayCast out our sin and enter inBe born to us todayWe hear the Christmas angelsThe great glad tidings tellO come to us, abide with usOur Lord Emmanuel

Also keep in mind there was never a "the Church".The terms "Eastern" and "Western" in this regard originated with divisions in the church mirroring the cultural divide between the Hellenistic east and Latinate west and the political divide between the weak Western and strong Eastern Roman empires.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Christianity"To illustrate the difference let me use a modern analogy. Let's say a teenager drives his car carelessly and is involved in a car accident that injures a friend of his riding in the car. He is taken to court and the judge fines him $1,000. He doesn't have the money, so his friend who was injured tells the judge that he would pay the fine. The judge accepts the offer and lets the guilty driver go free… But as soon as he leaves the court, guess what he does? He drives 60 mph in a school zone where the speed limit is 25. The young man has been forgiven, but has he changed? Not a bit. In fact, this judge is not concerned whether this teenager changes or not, because he sees his role as a judge to impose a penalty and make sure that the penalty is paid. After all, he is a judge, not a counselor, pastor, or psychologist.

But what if there was a second judge with a similar case, except that this judge said to the boy: "You are guilty, but your friend is paying the fine for you and therefore you are no longer legally liable to pay anything. You are free to go. But I'm not finished with you. You will have to go through some counseling. And you need to do some community service. You will have to attend driver's training classes. You will have to report to me every week. You will be on probation. I'm going to keep an eye on you until you can prove to me that you have changed your driving habits and you have become a responsible person."

The Western branch of the early church looked at sin and salvation the same way as the first judge.Sin is a legal problem, a judicial problem. A man is guilty, and the guilty person must be punished, unless there is someone else who is willing to be punished in place of the guilty one.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

What difference does it make that one is celebrating the birth of Jesus on the wrong day with pagan accoutrements like lighted trees?

Paganism is much more than that. Trinity, priests, celibacy, popes, layout of the church, altars, hell, pulpits (hanging on the wall), worship of saints, statues of Greek/Roman gods in church, symbolism, etc.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 12:04:50 PM by WhiteWings »

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

What difference does it make that one is celebrating the birth of Jesus on the wrong day with pagan accoutrements like lighted trees?

Paganism is much more than that. Trinity, priests, celibacy, popes, layout of the church, altars, hell, pulpits (hanging on the wall), worship of saints, statues of Greek/Roman gods in church, symbolism, etc.

But the point is that what is important is somehow transmitted through and beyond all of that to those appointed to eternal life.

Many religions believe in eternal life.Anyway, one of the questions of the OP was how ET crept in. And that's what I explained.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Molly I'd say the pagan symbolism is significant, otherwise God would not have told the Israelites to destroy their high places and Asherah poles. You believe those other gods are fallen angels or sons of god (I think) and those rites of worship are directed at them.

For me the problem with the pagan stuff in Christianity is not so much their past, but that we are to worship in spirit and truth. The church has become a worship of the natural (not the true ecclesia I'm talking here) or at least a mixture of.

How many times I've heard "bring your worship into the house of god" meaning the church building, um last I knew we are the temple of the holy spirit.There is only one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, except that guy who gets up on his tower (of babel) each sunday to tell me how to really interpret the "word of God" (wait I thought Jesus was the word of God?), I mean how can you really know unless you've been ordained or gone to seminary.What is that main focal point in almost every church? Oh that symbol for the sun-god, that is (possibly the mark of the beast) the cross (which Jesus didn't actually die on, but a tree or stake)Thankfully we have the church bells to bring us in every sunday, oh those are ba'als originally, and represent osiris' testicles, and that church steeple is his penis.

These things are what so many christians consider an important part of their worship, but remember that the Israelites thought they were worshipping God when they built the golden calf.

the OP's question was how would we explain the church's falling away. I'd say its the mixing of spirit and truth, with natural and false. The pagan hell doctrine came in with the pagan symbolism, which is what you would expect if you are worshipping through carnal means, you will get carnal doctrines.

Those things you mention of steeples, bells, etc cannot stop the pure of heart from seeing God.

Again the OP was about how paganism crept in. Not if the church totally died.

What's a true believer? What's a Christian?My view is that on forums like CARM there isn't a single Christian besides perhaps the people that got banned there....Likewise many on this forum don't have a Christian background.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

How I see it is "the church" is Babylon, and we are told to come out of her. It doesn't mean God doesn't use her for His good, but that its there to provide the backdrop or blackdrop on which we can compare the white true ecclesia. Just as God told Israel to fashion the cherubim and put them into the HOH, (even after He said make no graven image of ANYTHING), which they ended up worshipping. He has placed or allowed the babyonish church to grow, to give the contrast between right and wrong worship. For the overcomers to come out of her, otherwise what would they overcome? Its there, with its horrible doctrine of ET, oppressive taxation, guilt tripping, etc. to drive the overcomers to leave and search for the pure.

btw I'm not saying that these people in the church structure are consciously doing these things. They think they are doing whats right, just as Aaron thought building that calf was right, or the Israelites thought worshipping Moloch and Chiun was right, after all God had told them to build it and place it into the center of their worship. I loved my church, and still love those caught in it. my old pastor is a wonderful man with a heart for God. They are just trapped, they are deceived and they don't know it, because they follow the traditions of men (creation) instead of the Spirit (creator). they worship a god made in mans image.

Molly you said you worry about the children because they need a community, and I completely agree, but we are to provide that community, true community, where the children learn true religion (taking care of widows and orphans), not going to church on sunday, getting your emotional fix, checking off the box, then going about your regular life until you repeat next sunday. Its really hard, I want my daughter to love God, to have a relationship. I see the benefit of sunday school, sometimes I wonder if we should have her go to that. But then I don't want them polluting her mind with false doctrines. I don't want her to have to go through the anguish I did for my entire life not being able to really trust God because how could He create people He knew would spend eternity burning. That just forces me to do my job, it puts more burden on me to raise her in the path of righteousness, and not let it fall to some guy thats been trained "properly" to lead. We are priests, I am the priest of my household, with Christ as my high priest.

Molly you said you worry about the children because they need a community, and I completely agree, but we are to provide that community, true community, where the children learn true religion (taking care of widows and orphans.

But we don't. Nobody does except the established churches. The State wants to step in and take that role and this is what will happen should the churches fail. Then we will be hostage to the State, but that's another story.

I wish there were some easy answer. But, I think we're stuck with what we've got, except in rare cases here and there throughout the country. A city in California just outlawed home based churches--wow.

The churches, by the way, are already hostage to the State by virtue of their tax exempt status. The State now can threatened to put them in jail or remove their status should they preach something the State does not like.

Quote from: ww

Again the OP was about how paganism crept in. Not if the church totally died.

Oh.

I understood the OP to be asking how do you explain all these failed churches [teaching false teachings] in light of the scripture where Jesus says, essentially, his church will never fail.

My answer is--he's talking about the true church, the saints.

Quote from: ww

What's a true believer? What's a Christian?My view is that on forums like CARM there isn't a single Christian besides perhaps the people that got banned there....

lol

It's not really our place to try and judge that. God knows his people.

Molly you said you worry about the children because they need a community, and I completely agree, but we are to provide that community, true community, where the children learn true religion (taking care of widows and orphans.

But we don't. Nobody does except the established churches. The State wants to step in and take that role and this is what will happen should the churches fail. Then we will be hostage to the State, but that's another story.

I wish there were some easy answer. But, I think we're stuck with what we've got, except in rare cases here and there throughout the country. A city in California just outlawed home based churches--wow.

The churches, by the way, are already hostage to the State by virtue of their tax exempt status. The State now can threatened to put them in jail or remove their status should they preach something the State does not like.

So we should go back to egypt because we had it better there? We are brought into the wilderness for a reason, to learn to trust God, not in men and their system. I am providing for my daughters spiritual needs right now, as best as I know how. Its much better I'd say than to have her go learn a song, and a watered down bible verse, and play for an hour, and think thats what a God wants of us. Its the same thing as we get older, trust the system it works. Really? christians are almost no different than the rest of the nation. Same divorce rates, same drug abuse rates, same porn rates. No fruit (or at least little).

You say the churches are held hostage by the state, um they don't have to take a tax exempt status. And they are really just a part of the system. The conservative evangelical white churches promote republicans, the black and minority and liberal churches promote democrats. They keep propagating the system, as if there's really any difference between the two parties. Oh yes they're held down by the state, only so far as they allow it to happen. They are promoting the state through their tax exempt status. Saying come donate your tax deductible contributions to us. If the church wanted to be free from the state they would stop their tax exempt status and not worry about losing it, then they could preach whatever they want. They would preach the kingdom of heaven instead of "my manmade kingdom" with my lavish pavillions on every street corner, costing millions of dollars, to sit there unused the majority of the time, built off the hard work of illegal tithes that are coerced through manipulative means (how do you expect God to bless you if you don't tithe?). Our old church built a multimillion dollar building. Its beautiful, it feels great when you go there, God is really at work here I thought. Providing a really nice place for upper middle class folks to come and feel good about themselves once a week. Instead those millions could have gone to feeding the poor, not to mention their multi million dollar budget each year.

Do good things happen in the church? YEs absolutely, but what a waste compared to all the good that could come from that money.

Our church even understood that going to church isn't where real change takes place. The small group movement has been spreading through American evangelical churches for the past 10-15 years. But what they don't get is the superfluous nature of the church building at that point. The ecclesia is when two or more are gathered in His name. So why waste another precious day/hours going to the building, when your real church is your small group. This is what I've been saying to my friends for the past year (even before I came out of the church). We all only have so much time. IF you go to sunday morning at the church, and thursday (whatever night) night at the house ecclesia, how do you have time to go into the community and actually minister to the poor (financially and spiritually)? Instead we need to cut out the middle man, and spend those precious hours actually being the body of Christ.

Then we think, but how will people get into those small groups without the church to go to first? I see it kind of like the loss of charity in the US. Prior to taxation and welfare being forced onto the US, the church did charity, people did charity. They took care of others. Once the state steps in it takes off the burden from us to do our duty. The church is no different than the state. It takes our duty off to be Christ to the world. Want to minister to someone? Invite him to church, so that someone who's qualified can minister to them. Then they can start going to that church and giving their money so they can hire more "qualified" ministers. WE are supposed to be that minister. And just because its not happening doesn't meant that we should go back to bondage because at least the system is there to meet those needs. The reason poverty keeps risisng is because the state is unable to meet the needs of the people it attempts to help. The reason spiritual poverty is rising is because the church/state is unable to meet the needs of the people it is trying to help.

The central problem is centralization. The more centralized the state or church becomes, the less efficient and effective it becomes at meeting the needs of the people it is trying to meet. We need to be putting churches and government out of business. Are we doing it yet? NO, but that still doesn't mean we should default to a corrupt system because thats all we have. Thats why we get Bush/clinton/bush/obama/perry/romney/cain as if theres any difference. Its the same reason we get more ET, more hurt more divorce, more spiritual poverty, because we want to go back to comfort. We need to press forward to the promised land, its hard, believe me I know, almost all our friends have abandoned us because we don't go to their Circus church anymore. there will never be any real change until we stop the two party system of politics, and there will never be any real change until we stop the church system.

Again the OP was about how paganism crept in. Not if the church totally died.

Oh.

I understood the OP to be asking how do you explain all these failed churches [teaching false teachings] in light of the scripture where Jesus says, essentially, his church will never fail.

My answer is--he's talking about the true church, the saints.

If the Bible states the church never dies then obviously there always has been at least one saint.Otherwise it's in theoretically possible that their wasn't a single believer 'till say the 1800 when people retranslated the Bible and rediscoverred UR.

Quote

Quote from: ww

What's a true believer? What's a Christian?My view is that on forums like CARM there isn't a single Christian besides perhaps the people that got banned there....

lol

It's not really our place to try and judge that. God knows his people.

But, generally speaking, you will know them by their fruit.

But still that's what the OP is asking us to do. It isn't possible to claim satan isn't the same person as Jesus without making some sort of judgement.Sure we can only completely and correctly judge if we understand everything. I'm not one of that group. But some things are so extremly obvious and don't require absolute knowledge. I'm not a car mechanic but my knowledge of cars is enough to understand that my car isn't in perfect shape if the wheels fall off.If being a Christian means absolute perfection then nobody is. But how far can Christian move away from the correct teaching and becomes a pagan?Are muslims Christians too because they for example believe in Abraham, Moses and Jesus?I can't give you the border between Christian and pagan but for me ET is way past that border. It's rotten fruit.About ED for example I'm far less sure.

BTW knowing everything about Christianity doesn't make you one either. It needs to be applied knowledge

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Maybe connect with others in your area and create your own Sunday school and community outreach?

I don't know. It sounds like you might have a calling.

I wish I could find the church I went to as a child, but it doesn't exist anymore, at least not here.

I think you're right, we're doing it now, we just don't have anyone else in our fellowship yet. I've felt called to lead a home fellowship since I went to a small groups leadership conference at Willow Creek Church about 5 years ago. (Judge Reinhold was one of the speakers there btw) Its hard because going to church is so ingrained in peoples minds.

BTW knowing everything about Christianity doesn't make you one either. It needs to be applied knowledge

We don't need any specific doctrine or action to be considered a true believer. All we need is a relationship with Christ, and everything else will take care of itself.

Isn't that applying?

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Rm. 10:13

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. Rm. 10:9,10