People in boxing are relaxed about what they are doing, drill all the time against hard targets, do full contact sparring and use speedballs, floor to ceiling balls and focus mits. i ko=now other styles may also use this, but probably not as much. Also, there are pretty much only 5 punches: jab, Cross, Hook, Body rip, and Uppercut, alowing boxers to dedicate more time to erfecting these, which can be utilised to hit pretty much any target on the top half of the body. they also do lots os combo work and have fast and effective footwork that works anywhere and doesnt require a pausing gap to move, such as low horse stances ect.

Ace,You are absolutely right! And, by the way, some of the best Karateka that I personally know had been amateur boxers. They knew how to hit and get hit, and seemed to be able to modify more easily some of the empty hand strikes in other more traditional MAs to their take on striking.

Personally I consider boxing a supplement to a Martial art. Ace had a good answer as to the training they go through. It will vastly improve any art. I dont think of it as a stand alone art because it leaves alot out such as graplling outside of the clinch and use of the feet in combat. An excellent sport though

_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be." Lao Tzu

Also, they wear gloves. A lot of martial arts techniques, especially blocks, require the use of your hands and wrists, also they require the ability to slap hands and grab, all of which you cant do with those gloves on, as well as palm strikes.Dont start flaming me, I am just stating th eobvious not saying that boxers are not good fighters or that their hand techniques are bad.

However, boxing "works". Boxers DO train and fight with gloves on, but they take them off when they leave the gym. Those same punches and defensive tactics are still going to be there. It's the underlying delivery system that makes boxing so formidable.

Now you have to take that structure and add a few things obviously to make boxing more complete, most notably within the clinch and the ground. Otherwise, boxing is great by and large. That's going to depend on the type of gym one is training at as well. A whole lot of variables have to be considered and my opinion here is about the delivery system itself.

Question about fighting guard in boxing and other gloves (boxing kind) related MA.I have practised a bit of Muy Thai in the past and had to fight with these gloves. When fighting, my guard was up high, elbow's in hands/fist a bit away from my chin (few centimeters/inch).In karate (my 'root' MA) I always train without gloves (sometimes use mits but seldom) my guard is even further away from my chin but still up high and elbows in.Now sometimes I see SD training where they would hold their guard high, hands against the cheeck (open or fist) and I start to wonder what happens if I hit on the hands (not wearing gloves or mits). I have tried it with some friends and come to the conclusion that it hurts the hand and the head when hitting the hands of the opponent holding his guard like that. Is it a mistake to put the hands against the head as guard when not whearing gloves ?

Quote: It's the underlying delivery system that makes boxing so formidable

Yes I agree with you there.

Quote:Now you have to take that structure and add a few things obviously to make boxing more complete, most notably within the clinch and the ground

And I agree that it has missing things in the clinch and on the ground. You are missing the point I was trying to make though, I am not saying that boxers cant use their techniques with no gloves, Ia m saying that I cant use my techniques with gloves, especially boxing gloves. Now you think that one of the most important thing missing is the abillity on the clinch and the ground, and I think that the biggest thing that is missing are the kicks and the defence, that is because of our respective field of expertise. But it seems to me that you think that there is not much to add in terms of hand techniques, well let me tell you that if you take of the gloves I can introduce you to a whole new world of hand combat.

P.S. again I am not saying boxers arent good fighters, they are very quick and their punches and their combos can and are devastating.

edit: did the above sound a bit arrogant? rephrase: take off the gloves and there is a whole new set of techniques you can use.

Yes, I think you are correct about the distance needed to keep your guard up when practicing open handed, translated strikes from boxing. The cushion of the gloves can protect a little when absorbing strikes, compared to how your hands cupped to your face will translate the inpact to your head. But it is no fun to take a good right cross to the head despite your gloved hand protecting you.

Let me preface with two things, I have practiced with boxers and consider JKogas' assement correct. However, everyone on this thread, including MAgr, have valid points.

But let me point out a couple of specifics from just a punching aspect coming from my experience, and please note, that these might not follow your personal experiences and should just be considered an example from my perspective.

The style of karate I study has been heavily influenced by boxing techniques, but you have to slightly modify some of them for utility in a barehanded scenario.

However, the traditional stuff of karate for increasing wrist strength and forming a tight fist is a must. This is becuase the wraps and the gloves of boxing are all there to support and protect the bones and structure of the hand when striking. And let me add, when you increase the mass of the hand by putting on gloves, this can add to the force of a boxer's strike when thrown correctly. This is not all protection for the recipient of the punch.

Now, If you examine just the jab/right cross and the hook for a moment, you get an idea from where I am coming from. Some boxing schools teach the flick jab which may or may not be something you want to really use in an altercation...I would be leary though. But I had a boxing instructor once teach the jab and right cross combo with a large twisting motion of the wrist (and please note, different boxers do some techniques differently) so that the fist is perpendicular to the plane of the floor, but the thumb is pointing down. This was so that you would automatically roll the shoulders up and protect against a hook to the head. While this is good reasoning if you have gloves, without gloves, you risk impacting with your pinky knuckle and its adjacent finger's knuckle first. These are generally weak, if not conditioned and may break if hitting your opponent's elbow, if he raises it to guard.

For the hook, similarly speaking, one can throw it palm facing floor as I have been instructed in karate with a slight snap of the wrist upon impact so that you are again impactcing with the first two knuckles of the hand. In some boxing styles this punch would be delivered with the fist perpendicular to the ground, thumb up, but with a possibility of the same problem when throwing without gloves...that is impacting with the two smallest knuckles of the hand, and possibly injuring these.

In general, when performing a hook opened handed compared to boxing, I find that I throw it in a tighter arc as well.

I totally agree, boxing weakness is fist formation and delievery points of strike out of gloves.

Its strength is its concern is almost totally about fighting, though its in the ring, its full out and every move is used to get you in or out of position to give or evade a strike. Its conditioning is also a major factor.

I also found that when sparring a Boxer his most prize possesions is his legs. He will tell you in a minute hey we have to quit, if you damage my wheels I'm done for. They use their foot work to move in and out of range, seemly pride those more then blocking with their arms. Sorta like White Cane boxing which uses its foot work as a defense and offense. Though almost totally different, in complexity.

As I mentally compare the two boxing I must add that Western boxing strength is its truth and simplicity.

Another weakness is that it only cover 2 ranges and offense and defense is only concerned about above the waist contact.

from what i know of boxing, it is one of the best fighting styles to learn how to fight practically quickly. But being a sport, it has many obvious weaknesses such as no strikes to below the waist, exaggerated movements (wide swings), no grappling, limited selection of hand techs, and boxers aren't taught to strike vital points or to protect their lower body (i.e. groin). Also, cuz boxers tape their wrists, many boxers (as well as MAs!!!) don't know how to align their wrists and hold their fists properly. Like any other combat sport (TKD, Judo, etc.) the techs and strategies would have to be modified for an SD situation. One good advantage boxers have is their godawful toughness.

Quote:from what i know of boxing, it is one of the best fighting styles to learn how to fight practically quickly. But being a sport, it has many obvious weaknesses such as no strikes to below the waist, exaggerated movements (wide swings), no grappling, limited selection of hand techs, and boxers aren't taught to strike vital points or to protect their lower body (i.e. groin).

You've never seen a boxer hit below the belt? Never? If you have, do you think that such instances were "always" accidental? You're not that naive I'm presuming though.

Boxing, the art, is different than boxing, the sport. There is such a thing as "dirty boxing". That's being practiced TODAY. Headbutting, arm cranks (ever see Tyson do that - in the ring, mind you?), stepping on the feet. The list goes on. Its still boxing! IT's illegal as hell in the ring, but it's still boxing. Give boxing (the delivery system), the credit it deserves. What matters is how the INDIVUAL performs it - not the guys in the ring (although I'm betting they could probably street fight pretty well if they needed too. Tyson's had no problems doing so).

Quote:Also, cuz boxers tape their wrists, many boxers (as well as MAs!!!) don't know how to align their wrists and hold their fists properly. Like any other combat sport (TKD, Judo, etc.) the techs and strategies would have to be modified for an SD situation. One good advantage boxers have is their godawful toughness.

So don't tape your wrists. It's that simple. We don't. Sure it changes the game, but the underlying delivery system is STILL boxing. That doesn't change.

with all that, it could hardly be thought of boxing anymore. It's more like boxing except no rules.lol. I know that boxers do use illegal moves in the ring and that does [censored] me off somewhat. When u play a sport, u should expect to play by the rules. Most of those dirty boxing techs u talked about are actually just mostly moves picked off from the streets, thought up, or from other fighting arts. They're not really part of boxing.

I don't really think you get it. Boxing is boxing and contains a host of movements and some of the hardest punches...and deliveries of punches, that I know of.

By its very nature of continually measuring one opponent against another using (generally) the same skill set. It is one of the most comprehensive ways of learning how to enter into puching range and move out of it.

The key isn't just in the footwork and the punching techniques, it is in the training model. And the use of that training model to improve the fighter.

Give me a good amatuer boxer over most BB MAs (not all by the way ) and I will tell you where I'd put my money in a fight.

Quote:with all that, it could hardly be thought of boxing anymore. It's more like boxing except no rules.lol.

And that is precisely my point. Yet, the delivery system is STILL based on the core model of BOXING. The structure, movement, footwork, delivery of shots, defense of shots, all come fom the delivery system of boxing. What you're doing is confusing the ring sport of boxing with the underlying delivery system which can and IS done for self defense and other competitive uses (MMA). That was the whole crux of my argument to begin with.

Quote:

I know that boxers do use illegal moves in the ring and that does [censored] me off somewhat. When u play a sport, u should expect to play by the rules.

I agree, but we're not talking about the sport of boxing here. We're talking about boxing and self defense.

Quote:

Most of those dirty boxing techs u talked about are actually just mostly moves picked off from the streets, thought up, or from other fighting arts. They're not really part of boxing.

What you mean to say is, they aren't part of the RING SPORT. Again, you're confusing the competitive side of boxing and the underlying delivery system. Try to understand the difference between the two.

Quote:Most of those dirty boxing techs u talked about are actually just mostly moves picked off from the streets, thought up, or from other fighting arts. They're not really part of boxing.

I'm afraid that is not true. If you look at some of the old English boxing manuscripts from the 1800's, they list headbutting and footstomps (for 2) in the repetoire.

So, many of the "dirty" techniques DID exist in boxing to begin with, and were only removed in modern times to make boxing more commercial. JKogas and Butterfly are correct in saying that the delivery system of boxing has not been altered in the transition from SD to sport.

I have personally found boxing footwork and upper body movement to be superior to anything else I have seen, and have modified my (karate based) style accordingly.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Everyone has had some interesting things to say here. I wanted to mention two things: First, I would state that boxers, on average, seem to be in much, much better condition than your average combat sport, martial arts practioner. That is to say, if you find any amateur boxer, or even a boxing workout enthusiast, chances are they will be light years ahead of most other combat sport practioners in terms of conditioning. Boxing focuses so much on anaerobic conditioning, boxers are usualy in superb shape. This interval training is where they beat-out most other combat sports, etc. Let's face it, you can walk into a martial arts class and find people of all shapes and sizes, some of whom look like they can't even run a mile. The second thing I wanted to mention is footwork. Boxing focuses so much on footwork, boxers have a fluidity about their movement in the ring. I don't always see this in Tae Kwon do etc.

ok, i see where u r going. I do agree that boxing does provide a real solid foundation for a fighter and gives them invaluable skills. That's what i meant that is a good art to teach you to fight practically quickly.

a lot of martial artists can advance, somewhat, without doing very much sparing and without developing real power. boxing training seems to be focused on those, so it is hard to practice more than a few months without being very aware of your power and skills. I know young black belts who have no real power and who have hardly sparred.

Yes but it takes years before the boxer really starts developing skills, I mean they start with the baisc how to in the mirror stance, guards, strikes, movment. How to defend, how to throw combinations. There hands are not usually sharp precise until months down the road. They do spar full out, but that only sometimes enhances bad traits like looping and sloppy punches.

Most quailty Brown Belts of two years have power and speed can full contact spar at the various ranges (maybe not real well) but they can do it. Most 2 year old boxers have developed some fighting sklls but are far from being seasons and lack the conditioning of a season boxer.

I'd take the Brown belt in a street fight and the boxer in gloves in a boxing match. Not in a full range match knowing what to expect and how to react is an advantage.

Very rarely can you just box for a couple of months and be an effective fighter unless you were anyway. Because they know what to expect they won't let you spar until you gained some offensive and defensive skills. Although I did see Tex Cob's kid fight professionally with No skills on TV. He had been boxing for two years. He got mugged/TKOd in his 2nd fight, so I guess they do just turn you out.

A good Brown belt would beat him in or out of the ring or boxing gloves, I'd bet. I admitt swinging wildly is not boxing but thats what some 2yr old boxers do.

JkaorgJust disagree completely with this statement. It’s impossible to “know” how ALL the amateur boxers in the world are going to fight.

The same could be true of the Black Belts, if the amateur boxer has some streetfighting back ground he would think and fight differently. But if the Black belt had some boxing/street fighting experince so would he.

Boxing is a good sport that can work in the street at mid range. But it is limited by its own definition.

I disagree as well. Most boxers who have been training consistently for 2 years have a good solid foundation of the basics - and this goes a hell of a long way. Back to my original point - boxers tend to be in fantastic shape. Walk into any boxing gym and even if you're dealing with amateurs, you'll find athetes in superb shape. On average (in my opinion) many (or most) martial arts practioners are not in great shape. The proof: if you walk into any dojo or Tae Kwon Do gym, take a look at the physical makep of the people in the gym. Conditioning is a huge part of fighting - which is why boxing emphasizes this. I'm not sure why the martial arts don't.

Compare the boxers with the MAA or UFC practictioners both groups are preparing to fight and make money in their preferred events. Who would you choose in a street fight or no-rule fight. I'd take the MAA/UFC guy. Thats closer to comparing Apple to Apple.

The average TKD/Karate/Jujitsu guy is not preparing to compete for money and build a career with his skills, he out for above average Joe, fitness & confidence that he could defend himself if he had to.

The same is true for the Combat Martial artist guys they are training for real world stopping techniques, and may look like fat slobs but they can move like lightheavy weights, for a short spand of time.

Quote:JkaorgJust disagree completely with this statement. It’s impossible to “know” how ALL the amateur boxers in the world are going to fight.

Quote:The same could be true of the Black Belts, if the amateur boxer has some streetfighting back ground he would think and fight differently. But if the Black belt had some boxing/street fighting experince so would he.

Then they would be pretty much the same person wouldn’t they?

Neko456 wrote:

Quote:

Boxing is a good sport that can work in the street at mid range. But it is limited by its own definition.

Boxing is limited. Bad clinching, no kicking defense, no grappling. That said, their training is alive, the training demands conditioning, the sport is tough, leaving only tough guys to participate for the most part. Those are the kinds of things that aren’t present within a large percentage of typical dojos. Boxers would fare better than most.

I'm not sure why discussing who would win in a "street fight" is important (?). Re. the conditioning - boxing as a discipline demands top condioning. Why not the martial arts?Also, I've seen plenty of UFC fighters gasping after a few minutes of fighting. Roy Jones never did that, even after 10 rounds.What can we learn from boxing?

Quote:Also, I've seen plenty of UFC fighters gasping after a few minutes of fighting. Roy Jones never did that, even after 10 rounds.

I'm guessing that you have never done any grappling. Stand up boxing is a walk in the park compared to having someone attempt to put you in a submission on the ground.

Try it yourself.

And let's not compare Roy Jones to the average UFC fighter. He is an exceptional athlete. A comparison to Ken Shamrock would be somewhat more appropriate, and Ken has demonstrated very good conditioning (check his 30 minute bout with Royce Gracie - no breaks, unlike boxing).

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Ken Shamrock is an exceptional athlete - however you don't see the same sort of anaerobic intensity in a UFC match, as you do in a boxing match. That's why you see huge guys with a pretty high body-fat percentage competing in UFC. Anyway, back to my original point, why is it that conditioning lags so far behind in martial arts? I've trained at many dojos and the suggested conditioning regiment has always been "jogging." I am still very active and supportive of the the martial arts (this is constructive crtiscism), but have recently started augmenting my routine by training in a boxing gym 2X a week in the city. These guys do an intense amount of aerobic and anaerobic conditioning which they push to the absolute extreme - 100 yard sprints, 5 mile runs, hill sprints ("gassers"), then weight training in the morning, and then during the gym sessions, squat-thrusts (burpees), ring footwork, hundreds of crunches, medicine ball work, and dozens upon dozens of rapid fire mitt and bag drills - and these guys are just amateur boxers - but they train like machines . My question: why are the martial ars so far behind?

The real truth is that most martial artists are hobbyists by definition. Amateur boxers...amateur sports folk in any catagory you would like to name hope to get into the professional ranks and thus either have sponsorships or have jobs that pay for their training...in time. Meaning the amateur level athelete has time to train, doesn't have to to worry about going on a cross counry overnighter for a sales meeting and has access to regular training routines. All in the hopes to be in the best shape for his bouts.

Most who train in martial arts, outside of instructors are not professional. They pay for their classes and are not paid to go to them. Thus...not a professional. This means you can only train as well as you can. A martial artist might be 50 years old and have to work 10 hours a day before training. A little less conducive to being in the gym for six hours.

Oxing is definately an effective delivery system. It has decent footwork, teaches covering, bobbing and weaving. The simplicity of only having five techniques makes the practice highly effective and low maintinance. But its a delivery system it isnt a whole fighting structure. When western Boxing covers all ranges then it will be a system. Until then its a supplement to the system.

_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be." Lao Tzu

If you are trying to learn martial arts however and you want to be a martial artist you have to at least keep your tools sharp. If you have painting as a hobby, and not a profession, you still dont use frayed brushes. There is no point in learning a fighting system if you are not trying to get fit. Otherwise you will never feel what it means to be light on your feet, to be able to last a couple of minutes of intense fighting, or have the physical strenght (which oh my god! yes, we need sometimes) to ward off a big one!

I agree that there is a level of fitness that Boxers or amutuer sports acheive that average MA does not, but they were not intend on competing in the same arena. When they do rules support the fighters that trains under those rules.

Comparing someone like Roy Jones who was once in or the lb for lbs best boxer of his area vs. UFC players stamina is unfair. But still under UFC rules fight I'd go with the UFC fighter and the coulpe clinches if it goes rounds I'd might go with RJ. But really I think he would quit once his legs got kicked, thats were they make their living (foot work).

My point is that boxing is limited you can be in best shape in the world and still get pounded out or choked out, if you don't know how defend agaisnt it. Granted give RJ or any boxer at that level time to learn UFC defense and attacks he'd be awesome.

Improbable yeah, who would risk a UFC $50k-100K check, vs his usual $4.5 million purse in boxing. Boxers are superior athletes but they have limted range like a 38 spl.

I'm almost at a loss for words. My guess is the majority of you making those comments have never boxed or even attended a seminar on boxing. And I'm positive you never stepped in the ring with a boxer.

Where do you guys get this stuff from?

Quote: many boxers (as well as MAs!!!) don't know how to align their wrists and hold their fists properly.

Are you serious? Exactly how did you come to this conclusion? How many boxers do you know? How many boxing gyms have you trained at?

Quote:

I totally agree, boxing weakness is fist formation and delievery points of strike out of gloves.

I disagree a boxer in a boxing ring maybe, but a boxer in a street fight or in free range fight. I think not.

Amature boxers at their range can be awesome, but in a dirty street fight they fight too clean.

Get out of the gym and go out into the street walk with the boxers and watch them in action. Some do injury themself using their fist (in gloves they are protected), though they may KO their opponent they break a knuckle (usually the little finger).

Boxers are powerful punchers sometimes that enough, other times its not, I find that the amatures (some journeman Pros) in a clinch seem to freeze for a moment opening themself up to throws, takedowns and sweeps (dryland for a boxer).

Just because a guys a bad man in the ring don't aways mean he can fight in the street. Just like the Shark in the water its one of the tough ultimate predator, on dry land its just a coughing dieing fish, now you can't f$%k around with it you gotta go ahead a kill it.

You obviosouly have your oppinons based on your time in the ring with these boxers, they are very tough and skilled espeically if you are learning but if you can box, they are just boxers. With strengths and weakness.

Not trying to slight just calling it from where I see it boxers are good in their element. On the ground BigRod, grappling you'd be the Shark and they'd be the prey, wouldn't you say. S&W again, right?

Quote:Ken Shamrock is an exceptional athlete - however you don't see the same sort of anaerobic intensity in a UFC match, as you do in a boxing match.

To be fair to the UFC guys -- I think you see MORE anaerobic intensity in those matches (than in boxing). This is because you're doing MORE than simply boxing. You're having to also wrestle in the clinch and on the ground. This takes a HUGE amount of anaerobic conditioning. Much more so than when you're "just boxing".

Quote:

That's why you see huge guys with a pretty high body-fat percentage competing in UFC.

Not really. There are PLENTY of ripped guys in there as well. I don't know who you've been seeing....

Sometimes it's also a matter of genetics. Carrying a little more bodyfat doesn't always mean that a person is out of shape.

Quote:

Anyway, back to my original point, why is it that conditioning lags so far behind in martial arts?

...why are the martial ars so far behind?

That completely depends on where you train and what their particular philosophy is. It also depends on the goals of the individual martial artists.

Quote: Anyway, back to my original point, why is it that conditioning lags so far behind in martial arts?

...why are the martial ars so far behind?

I think wanting your cake and eating it is a world wide phenomenon not just in MAs. In all types of activity, art, sport, hobbys etc people want shortcuts and they want to expunge the unpleasant side of it or what each peron finds unpleasant. I agree with John completely, it depends on the individual

You know what I'd love to see? Moral and legal problems aside, of course:

A match between someone trained in BJJ, MT and western boxing against an opponent trained in Hapkido or Kyokushin only (And I mean the traditional arts, not the sporty variety). Both cream of the crop in their respective fields.

This would take place in a 100'x100' concrete floored arena, designed to resemble a parking lot, complete with cars.

Opponents would start 30' away from each other and would wear street clothes. No gloves.

Absolutely no rules, the objective being to incapacitate or kill your opponent by any means. That means eye gouges are allowed, groin kicks are allowed, joint breaks are allowed, kneck snaps are, strikes to the spine, strikes to the throat, spear hands under the ribs, tiger claw rips to the face, hand strikes to both temples, etc, all allowed.

whats up guys?this is going to be slightly biast, seeing as i am an active boxer, iv been going for years, and will be turning pro next year. id like to adress a couple of points.... but first ill do some background

iv done alot of martial arts in my lifetime. iv got black in karate (yes i know nearly everyone does) and in tag sou dao (something not so common) aswell as experience in ju-jitsu and judo. iv competed over 15 times in muay thai and had 2 vale tudo fights. so i do know what im talking about!

after obtaining a black in karate and tang sou dao, aswell as doing judo for a year i thought i was nearly indestructable. i had done alot of sparring and fighting in my lifestyle, and i wont be modest... i had really beat some guys down. i got in a fight outside my sports center with a guy who called me a "karate pussy"

the kid looked younger than me, certianly not as big and was wearing shorts and a hoody... nothing special. i immediately squared up (like a fool) to which he had no problem doing.

id like to point out this kid called me a karate pussy infront of me and about 3 other guys in gi's, all of his own accord, he had nobody with him...i took a step back and threw a front foot roundhouse, but there was no point.. he rolled udner it and was on the outside. even though we were in a corridoor i couldnt hit this guy, he moved way too quickly, and he wasnt even throwing any punches. he flicked out a jab that was quicker than anything i had ever seen which cut me eye. this scared me a little, and there was no way i was gettig hit with another one of them. he went to throw another, so i went for a front arm inside to outside block, which was too slow... he just hit me again, then walked inside. immediately my long range kicks were nullified and he was just letting rip. he broke one of my ribs withb a right hook to my body, oushed me into the wall so i couldnt get away and punded me repeatedly untill i went down.

i got my ass kicked by a 14 year old kid, smaller and less experienced than me even though i was kicking him, and my kicks arent slow.i couldnt take it, so i started muay thai and vale tudo, something where you learned to punch properly, but kick aswell, which went well for me. i won 18 MMA tournaments till i came up against a boxer who had done ju-jitsu.i threw a low kick, but he was way too fast, and no matter how much you practice your a bit off balance. he walked over my turned foot and landed a left hook to the point of my chin, i was out in an instant, and had to be taken away on a stretcher with the oxygen.

[censored] it i thought, im going to have to learn this boxing [censored]. and iv never looked back. martial arts cant touch on the mental state, toughness and power that you learn to control when you bod. iv learned to put every gram of my bodyweight behind a punch, i can shatter bones, guards and compusures of anyone i hit, and i hit too fast for who do martial arts to block.

so anyways, to adress the points.myths of boxing:

"they dont know how to fight dirty"BULL-[censored]. meet a boxer. i kid you not theyl try anything when the ref isnt looking. most of them are the toughest [censored] youll ever meet. we dont have the respect and honour shite. we dont bow when he enter the gym, we spit.

"they dont kow what to do in close, when when grabbed"

what the hell do you think uppercuts are for? we use elbows and our head alot, just cause were trained to do something in the ring, doesnt mean well stick to it on the street... iv personally given somone a straight right to the groin... out liek a light, and how do you get close to something you cant hit?

"they cant handle kicks, theyre too long" we cant handle your kicks if you can kick for 10 mins straight without being off balance and leaving an openeing, or if you can kick faster than our jab. i have bad experiences with trying to kick a boxer, i dont advise it. alot of a boxers training will be getting in close to youur opponent by getting under a jab... a kick is far slower and longer... peice of [censored] to get under!

" a 2 year boxer wont be as good as a 2 year martial artist"thats a stupid statement... if i took anything away from my experiences its dont underestimate. in my 2 years as a boxer i managed to rack up 12 fights and about 50+ hours of full contact sparring. difference between martial arts and boxing sparring is : in boxing, when you damage your opponent your doing well, in martial arts... you STOP!

dont get me wrong, im not slagging martial arts off, and im sure ill get millions of replies telling me that you all could kick my ass etc etc, but something i would like to put across is:

We have practical fight experience, we do it every day

we know what to do when we get hit and hard, most people go to peices

we dont telegraph our punches

our punches are probabely harder than most martial arts punches

our punches are probabely faster than most martial arts

we spend alot of time learning to adapt to different styles of fighting, and what to do with different things

our defense is incredible, either you cant hit us, or the hit is completely deflected...

re-reading your post there some stuff here thats going to give you problems with a lot experienced members and martial artists here. there are also some porblems i have too with what you say, especially about honour and discipline.

if the 14 year old had been trained with some disciple and honour he wouldn't have started on you and beaten the crap outta you. and you were stupid for rising to a petty insult.

evidently you were also trained pretty poorly in karate and sadly probably in a mcdojo, i'm sorry you had a bad experience with it. I'm glad you've found an art your comfortable in. (oh and its jutsu not j itsu)

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Go seek the advise of a qualified instructor.

Quote:re-reading your post there some stuff here thats going to give you problems with a lot experienced members and martial artists here. there are also some porblems i have too with what you say, especially about honour and discipline.

if the 14 year old had been trained with some disciple and honour he wouldn't have started on you and beaten the crap outta you. and you were stupid for rising to a petty insult.

evidently you were also trained pretty poorly in karate and sadly probably in a mcdojo, i'm sorry you had a bad experience with it. I'm glad you've found an art your comfortable in. (oh and its jutsu not j itsu)

id rather have fought, been beaten up and learned than not fought atall.i am sure that i would have problems with alot of your experienced martial artists (if you meant in a fighting sense), i did not say i was the ultimate warrior, neither did i say that boxing was better than all the other martial arts. i did however say it was up with the best of them, and that you should not write it off as i felt some people on this forum were doing.

i dont know how my judo qualifications stand as compared to the rest of you, but i dont think its fair to tell me that i was poorly trained in karate. im competed many times in karate, on a national level and was only beaten twice.i also dont appreciate being called stupid because of the way i act. perhaps it is not how you see fit, but it doesnt mean its wrong.

i am attempting not to insult anyone here, but im not doign a great job. try to read what i say as something different from a personal stab. remember i might have been practicing as long or longer than you, so dont call me uneducated. i still attend karate classes, i still practice muay thai.

i do however have real problems with the respect and honour concerned with martial arts. we are no longer in ancient japan. we no longer have fair fights, with both warriors made equal. we dont fight under rules in the street. the average thug who wants a scrap on a firday night will not bow to you before you fight him, and will show no mercy when your down on the floor. so why do you insist on practicing it?i feel it is only for tradition, but that is what makes martial arts nowerdays so weak. they need to get with the world, take a step out of the past and come to the real world. alot of martial arts still teach strikes used to fight against swords, and many techniques were formed to deal with armoured opponents, something not common in the world today.you are practicing your martial art in a sports center or a hut most probabely, not a "sacred" dojo, so why treat it like one?

Quote:re-reading your post there some stuff here thats going to give you problems with a lot experienced members and martial artists here. there are also some porblems i have too with what you say, especially about honour and discipline.

if the 14 year old had been trained with some disciple and honour he wouldn't have started on you and beaten the crap outta you. and you were stupid for rising to a petty insult.

evidently you were also trained pretty poorly in karate and sadly probably in a mcdojo, i'm sorry you had a bad experience with it. I'm glad you've found an art your comfortable in. (oh and its jutsu not j itsu)

id rather have fought, been beaten up and learned than not fought atall.i am sure that i would have problems with alot of your experienced martial artists (if you meant in a fighting sense), i did not say i was the ultimate warrior, neither did i say that boxing was better than all the other martial arts. i did however say it was up with the best of them, and that you should not write it off as i felt some people on this forum were doing.

i dont know how my judo qualifications stand as compared to the rest of you, but i dont think its fair to tell me that i was poorly trained in karate. im competed many times in karate, on a national level and was only beaten twice.i also dont appreciate being called stupid because of the way i act. perhaps it is not how you see fit, but it doesnt mean its wrong.

i am attempting not to insult anyone here, but im not doign a great job. try to read what i say as something different from a personal stab. remember i might have been practicing as long or longer than you, so dont call me uneducated. i still attend karate classes, i still practice muay thai.

i do however have real problems with the respect and honour concerned with martial arts. we are no longer in ancient japan. we no longer have fair fights, with both warriors made equal. we dont fight under rules in the street. the average thug who wants a scrap on a firday night will not bow to you before you fight him, and will show no mercy when your down on the floor. so why do you insist on practicing it?i feel it is only for tradition, but that is what makes martial arts nowerdays so weak. they need to get with the world, take a step out of the past and come to the real world. alot of martial arts still teach strikes used to fight against swords, and many techniques were formed to deal with armoured opponents, something not common in the world today.you are practicing your martial art in a sports center or a hut most probabely, not a "sacred" dojo, so why treat it like one?

just my thoughts

i apologise for anything that may have offended you. i was out of order to call your training poor without proof. i don't see boxing as beneath other arts, just unbalanced.

but your veiw on the old japan way of fighting with respect and honour is warped. when you sparred (in a ring type thing) broken bones were common and they ended with knock outs pretty much every time, challege fights were even worse. and brawls in the street may have begun with a bow but you probabaly wouldn't walk or even hobble away from it.

arts like judo and akaido were invented in peace times, to reduce this. karate is a weakened art, before it was called tode and was changed in the 1800s into karate after it was introduced to okinawan schools as exercise, sport and discipline. its fatal attacks were removed and the others weakened to avoid serious injury, it also involved grappling and takedowns from jujutsu. reading your comments on boxing makes me want to learn it, to suppliment my karate and strengthen it back to the way it was when it was tode.

if you think people in old japan showed mercy then you are wrong. every samurai carried two swords, the longest sword would be drawn without question and i don't think mercy comes into play when one cuts the others arm off, then his leg, then beheads him. to show mercy and let the other man live in a fight meant dis-honour to his death and dishonour to yourself.

i think our veiws on respect and honour are something we are going to have to agree to disagree about. but i think the world as a whole would be a better place if everyone had respect and honour, thats never going to happen but i'm still going to practise it.

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Go seek the advise of a qualified instructor.

I've not done boxing but I was once told (or read) that boxers train to hit wearing gloves and this slight difference can be problematic when they hit without wearing gloves, occassionally causing damage to hands. Is this true?

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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Quote:I've not done boxing but I was once told (or read) that boxers train to hit wearing gloves and this slight difference can be problematic when they hit without wearing gloves, occassionally causing damage to hands. Is this true?

The solution is to train boxing without the use of boxing gloves. Of course, your partners won't like that very much...

Boxing gloves allow us to isolate the boxing range more effectively and realistically.

You see, there is a reason for the gloves; they protect your partners and your hands during "training". Training realistically (actually punching) is kind of important.

What you have to do is supplement your training using the smaller MMA gloves (which really don't protect the hand all that much). MMA gloves came into existence NOT to protect the fighters hands during his fights, but to prevent CUTTING of his opponent which happened quite frequently in the early MMA events.

Training is one thing but fighting is anothers. Boxers learn how to hit hard in the ring and are vicious punchers.

But what they are not prepared for low kicks, throws and sweeps then grabbing, pulling punches/striking throws using the throat and grion as lifting points or finger flick vs. his jab same time then grion kick, elbow smashes to the face. Grabbing lifting throws, & stomps nobodies head is as hard as concret.

Punches to the throat after a sweep or knee attack to the thigh, punches/elbows to the spine/kidney/back skull from the back and strikes to the back of head. I've only had two fights with boxers 1 was drunk the other was not drunk. Both lasted as long as it took me to sweep them and stomp them. Nobodies head is as hard as concrete!!!

I see Boxers as sharks, one of the toughest SOBs in his element in the water moving or at punching range. But like a shark take him outside his element stopping his movement/Boxers legs/get him to give you his back and Shark holding him still in the water or bring him ashore. You deprive him of oxygen & drown him. Like a Shark if he catches you with his best bite/combo, you are hurt.

Learning how to box, you learn their strengths and weakness. I've sparred many pretty good boxers my brothers a journeyman Pro boxer, we've sparred often. After training in both I don't see MAs as sissys, I see Boxing as a sport, and a tough way to make living, if he ain't great at it.

Quote:I've only had two fights with boxers 1 was drunk the other was not drunk. Both lasted as long as it took me to sweep them and stomp them. Nobodies head is as hard as concrete!!!

Not to diminish your glory but I doubt they were "reasonable" boxers since if they were convicted they would probably loose their lisence.. if they had any...

This conversation has gone bit off topic but hey what the heck I myself think pretty highly of boxing because I have NEVER got my ass handed so badly since I started boxing. The speed of the punches are just awesome and not to mention the evasive skills.

Just to think what kind of damage would my opponent done to me if he wasnt wearing a glove.. its just frightening =DAnd when I start to take MMA matches I definetly wouldnt want to face a good boxer with sprawling skills... I mean the gloves are so damn small!! I have lost count how many times my nose has started to bleed and so sore you cant really press it with 12oz mits if they were mma gloves my nose would be no more god damn it! =D

Well the bottom line is: Id say start in some decent boxing gym and see for your self =)

Ps. For the argument "boxers cant hit with out gloves" Id much rather have a broken knuckle than a broken face and when you sparr "all out" your hand will get sore eaven with 12oz gloves so it gives you some idea what it would feel like hitting with out gloves but much more importantly boxers know how to take a few hits with out loosing their game. The few hits might be the only ones you get before he lays that overhand to your jaw and your out ;D

Not to diminish your glory but I doubt they were "reasonable" boxers since if they were convicted they would probably loose their lisence.. if they had any...

In what world do you live in that a street fight ends with a conviction? Usually they go home to sleep it off, a buddy takes them home or a ambulance takes them to ER. Theres no convictions he paids a fine or bill and goes home. Where do you get such nonsense? Maybe if its Tyson and you want get a 20k-50k out of him, other wise. Thats why see that stuff in the newspaper it ain't because he just whipped their a$$ or got his whipped.

And as for their licenses I don't know if they had one or if they where un-ranked amatures, golden glove, semi pro or pro. I didn't have time to conversate with them, I just saw their moves. The drunk boxer knocked out a fellow 6'5 300lb bouncer, with fancy foot work, a left & hook right hand combination thats pretty impressive to me. The boxer that was not drunk spouted something about golden glove, but guys that brag don't know thats they better not be selling wolf tickets, they better be good cause thats how I am coming at them.

Boxers are impressive at punching range, but if you know how to box they are just boxers with limitations. The most potent person I've ever fought was a ex-boxer now MA he knew all my moves plus some. Boxing is a tough sport, with gruleing training regiment thats what makes them tough.

We train against boxing tactics all the time at Level 4 sparring Boxing is limited vs. all that can be used against him. If you don't know that keep training and living.

Diminshing my glory, U just keep training learn how to box then learn how to fight. Boxing can help but it is two different worlds.

Quote: the average thug who wants a scrap on a firday night will not bow to you before you fight him, and will show no mercy when your down on the floor. so why do you insist on practicing it?

It's called respect! Not that I'd bow if I was in an unfortunate position of being threatened or confronted. You bow in class to begin practicing with your partner and at the end. It's a show of appreciation. I bow to my partners during class to show appreciation with assisting me in my training. From the boxing matches I've watched most boxers seem to do a similar thing at the end of the fight. They walk over to one another hug and congratulate and show appreciation. Bowing to me is a similar thing, like a hand shake and a thank-you.

Quote: we are no longer in ancient japan. we no longer have fair fights, with both warriors made equal. we dont fight under rules in the street.

That's just romantised rubbish. People in ancient japan did not partake in fair fights or with rules.

Quote: that is what makes martial arts nowerdays so weak

This is a broad and sweeping generalisation. Like others have said, the practitioner makes the art, not the art itself.

I think it all depends on why people train in martial arts. To some it is a hobby, a form of self defence or to improve their levels of fitness etc. As boxing is a sport, most boxers train to compete. This is why they train so hard and tend to be extremely fit athletes so they can go the rounds.

If you practice an MA for self defence you'll need to be relatively fit so you can sprint away from danger and be strong enough to defend yourself sufficiently but as most attacks usually only last from 30 seconds to 4 minutes, the necessity to be as fit as a boxer isn't there. You're not going to be stood there for ages slugging it out like boxers do at a match.

As I practice a martial art which doesn't really require physical braun or endurance compared to a grappling art for example, our fitness levels don't really have a huge impact on our art. However I do train and workout but I do so to be a better uke, and to reduce the risk of injury.

However, if you're an MA who partakes in tournements and other competitions it would probably prove beneficial if they did start to train like a boxer, to up their endurance levels etc.

GALUA - People dont get charged for fighting in your country at all? Well where I come from most boxing gyms will shelve a "brawlers" licence and kick him out from the gym. Clearly, if you are as good as you say, you could have pinned the brawlers to the ground and call the police or have the other bouncers to call the police?

People do get charged with street fighting here, if they wait for the cops or detained and a complaint signed. But usually they separate and go there way as I mention.

Usually at night club useless the participate is a dangerous and continous threat the guys tossed outside and or escourted off the property until the next night $$$, or the bouncer and property owner will give a time limit when he can return or be arrested on sight for TP. His occupation or hobby doesn't matter.

That last statement, I never think like that. I'm not that good, I am flawed, not as strong as I want to be, don't have as much stimina as I want, not fast as I want to be. But really who is? My thinking is I got a job to do, its to get home that night with minimum damage, he's the big bad wolf. So I never am over confident I only think detention when the fights out of him. So far as grappling I only do it when I have to. But with a boxer or strong puncher usually I want to hobble them, by smashing his instep or ankle, then knee/kick to the inside of his knee moving to his back elbows and strikes, sweep/throw & stomp or strike let his head & knee bounce off the floor/concret 2-3 times, then hes ready for the flexi-cuffs or to quit while he gathering his thoughts. Like I said boxers are tough sobs, I handle them that way. All this is illegal in boxing or not what hes ready for. I didn't mentioned he might have tagged me a couple of times, thats decides how many times he gets hit on the ground. Usually bouncing their are few mono mono situations but occassionally it happens or they will catch off the job.

Usually their friends take them home or to ER. Occassinally he goes to jail for destruction of property or assault & battery $1000 fine but is released when he's sober on his own recordnazes. Most like hes not fine the club owner will strike a deal with him and let him go, the CO wants that $1k in his pocket.

Point I'm trying to make is I'm not a great fighter, I'm a survivor, good strikers scare me, like any animal scared thats when they are danagerous. Get it out of your head that you will take it easy on someone because you are trained, use double barrel until you don't have to. Even dirty double barrels. I'm not a great clean, moral fighter, someone to look up to. I'm a old dirty efficent fighters that knows how they fight and can drown them.

How did I get that mixed "useless" with "unless I hope most read thru that I'm at work, typing as fast as I can. Sorry for the confusion.

Usually at night club unless the participate is a dangerous and continous threat the guys tossed outside and or escourted off the property until the next night $$$, or the bouncer and property owner will give a time limit when he can return or be arrested on sight for TP. His occupation or hobby doesn't matter boxer, football player or Karateman.

I dont think any guy is ever gonna agree that someone else's sport is better than their sport. especially fighters. Just the way were made right? Martial arts and fighting sports are the best though cuz i think they rewuire the most determination, strength, and heart over any other sport like soccer or baseball :P

however i also gotta defend boxing. I've done both Karate (shidokan), kickboxing and now i currently box and so far boxing is my favourite. Some ppl have been making a big deal about how we use wraps and gloves even though we only do this becuz we throw so many punches against hard objects (bags, other boxers) that without these are wrists would have massive ammounts of wear on them. Ive done two styles of karate, one was the typical give me money and i give you black belt dojos (unfortunate that so many martial arts are being mocked by these dojos) and the other was a traditional, disciplined dojo. From the four years i spent at this dojo i got basic conditioning and learned many techniques. from the 1 year i spent at boxing i have greatly improved in shape and the techniques i learned here were far more effective in a fight. boxers learn their own style of boxing for their strengths and weaknesses. I have long range, fast hands, and high endurance so i box with devestating bursts and then defend and then burst again. Boxers are highly conditioned, tough as nails, and can hold there own in a streetfight no matter what anyone else thinks. It all comes down to the person not their style.

Quote: cuz i think they rewuire the most determination, strength, and heart over any other sport like soccer or baseball :P

they obviously dont require spelling talent

Quote:Boxers are highly conditioned, tough as nails, and can hold there own in a streetfight no matter what anyone else thinks. It all comes down to the person not their style.

what a pathetic stereotype. There is no sport "above" other sports, because as you said its down to the person. The person puts in the effort, has the determination, the heart, training, etc, no matter what the sport is.

Quote: and the techniques i learned here were far more effective in a fight

once again, it doesnt mean boxing is better, just means you got more out of it. other people might not be the same. I learned more from getting in bar fights than from kickboxing, but I dont go around claiming its the best thing around

Quote: He already qualified that his statments were based on his own experiance, and that they don't necessarily speak for everyone when he explictly stated:

Quote:I dont think any guy is ever gonna agree that someone else's sport is better than their sport. especially fighters. Just the way were made right? Martial arts and fighting sports are the best though

Quote: I don't see anything 'pathetic' in that at all--I see at as very accurate actually.

He was basiclly repping boxing above everything else, which was the theme of the post. As I said, just because someones a boxer doesnt mean they can kill everyone in the room, or that they are better fighters than anyone else.

Quote:I don't see, beyond the poor grammer and punctuation (which is really quite awful, nesquick), why these other aspects of his post required such harsh criticism there crab.

My intentions were not to put boxing on a pedestal at all and this was not the theme of my post. I don't understand how you saw it this way, but posts over the internet can be very easily misinterpreted. I assume this is what caused you to react with so much hostility. Anyways what I meant was that boxers out of the ring would not be like a fish out of water. In my experience leg sweeps and low kicks are easily bypassed by good footwork, and can actually be used against the kicker as he loses balance. I have never seen a high kick pulled off well enough to do any harm nor any other "superior" technique that a boxer is supposed to be helpless against. In fact I find most fights turn into a sprawl'n'brawl match. I apologize for the terrible grammar in my previous post, there is no excuse for that.