"For the love of money is the root of all evil." (1 Tim. 6:10a) Ergo... follow the money.

Monday, February 01, 2010

The Demand to "Tithe" vs. Willful, Cheerful Giving -- Are We Still Under the Law or Not?

"The greatest measure of godly discipline is this... that thou givest 10% of thy gross wages, undesignated, to thy church's multi-million-dollar budget before thou givest one mite to the orphan, the widow, the poor, the hungry."

1st Hesitations 3:16

For at least the past three months, Steve Gaines has been emphasizing "tithing" and his definition of it.

So... are we still under Old Testament law or not? How does what preachers like Steve Gaines are demanding today... 10% of your pre-tax income given in an undesignated fashion to what has in some cases become a temple of greed... compare to the Old Testament tithe? Why do we not follow other OT laws, dietary laws, for example? Why "only" 10%? And how does this legalistic demand by men compare to the New Covenant concept of willful, cheerful giving to help spread the gospel and help care for those in need?

I think we all understand the difference between moral absolutes (e.g. "thou shalt not murder" or "thou shalt not steal") and things like dietary laws and the OT "tithe" which is NOT giving 10% of your pre-tax income to a man-made organization before you even think of helping someone in need.

Jesus Christ said:"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees,hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weighter matters of the law: justice, and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, WITHOUT LEAVING THE OTHERS UNDONE" (Matt. 23:23 NKJ).

"Woe to you, Pharisees and you religious leaders - hypocrites! For you tithe down to the last mint leaf in your garden, but ignore the important things - justice, mercy and faith. YES, YOU SHOULD TITHE, but you shouldn't leave the more important things undone (Matt. 23:23 LB).

"Think NOT that I am come to destroy the Law or the prophets; I am not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matt. 5:17)

Jesus was NOT doing away with the tithe but He was focusing on the heart attitude being right. In this age of grace, we give out of a heart of love for God and His people and the spread of the Gospel. We give acknowledging that God owns it all and we are giving back to Him only a small portion of what He has blessed us with. We give trusting Him with the 90 percent we have left. And we give offerings above the tithe as we are able. If you've never tithed, you don't realize the blessings you are missing.:0)

Read Matt.23:1-5 to see what Jesus says about religious leaders who put heavy burdens on their people.

I think we're pretty much on the same page. I just don't happen to think that 10% is some magic number. For some it might be 2% or 5% or 8%, for some 10% might be just right, and for some it may (or should) be much more. The point is it should be given willingly (not under coercion from some preacher or because we think there's a magic number -- the "tithe" in the OT was actually about 23%) and cheerfully, not out of some legalistic sense of duty. If someone feels led to give to his local church, fine. If someone else feels led to help someone in need, that's fine, too. That's between the giver and God, not between the giver and Steve Gaines.

Another question. Long-term unemployment is higher than it's been in years. What is someone who's unemployed supposed to give? Ten percent of zero is still zero.

The OC 'tithe' was a tax for governing Isreal, a theocracy, and poor folks did not pay it. The benefited from it in Isreal. But then, the Lord spoke many times of the Priests doing in justice against the widows and orphans.

Can you also name all the laws we are still under? And which ones we are not? Such as the Sabbath. I am pretty sure Paul speaks to that one.

Now, Jesus Christ DID raise the bar from the Law because now we are to have the indwelling Holy Spirit. So, to lust is to commit adultery in the heart.

There is NO tithe. Because there is no Theocracy. No Levite Priest and the temple is NOW in our hearts where God dwells.

We are to give radically to brothers and sisters in need. Not to some building fund or to pay professional Christians. Paul made tents so as not to be a burden.

Besides, the entire tithe was about 25%. So, you might be in sin for only giving 10%. :0)

Just remember to study on your own and not believe the guy whose income depends on your 'tithe'.

I grew up in the SBC. I've heard "10%" preached all my life. When my dad was growing up his mother had a "tithe box," and if he earned any money from odd jobs his mother made sure exactly 10% of his earnings were dropped into that box, and it was taken to church on Sunday. So I've heard the "10% as law" my whole life and never once questioned it.

How many preachers (including Dr. Rogers) have we heard preach on Malachi 3:10 and just accepted it as truth without ever thinking about it? Not that Malachi 3:10 isn't "truth," but it's not "truth" the way preachers define it today. How many of us have actually studied what the OT tithe was? (Hint: It wasn't 10% of your money given to the tabernacle.) The 10% tithe has always been more like a duty to me, not something I've always done cheerfully (most of the time it was but not always), and I now see that it shouldn't be that way. The more I've seen churches spend money on elaborate building programs, large staff salaries and perks, and silly "programs," while ignoring people in need (inside and outside the walls of the church), the more I've come to realize that this is not the way it's supposed to be.

A good illustration of this "not seeing the forest for the trees" is what happened at FBC Jacksonville last week. Homeless people were removed from the area around FBC Jax in preparation for the Pastors' Conference where preachers and marketers came from around the country to "learn how to minister better" and to sell their wares. To me, there's something seriously wrong with this picture.

Exactly. But I bet if someone were unemployed and scrimping by on unemployment or savings or a loan from family, SG would still say s/he should be giving 10% to "the local church in an undesignated fashion."

Act 15:5 But some who believed [who acknowledged Jesus as their Savior and devoted themselves to Him] belonged to the sect of the Pharisees, and they rose up and said, It is necessary to circumcise [the Gentile converts] and to charge them to obey the Law of Moses.

Act 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting a yoke on the necks of the disciples, such as neither our forefathers nor we [ourselves] were able to endure? Act 15:11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace (the undeserved favor and mercy) of the Lord Jesus, just as they [are].

Act 15:19 Therefore it is my opinion that we should not put obstacles in the way of and annoy and disturb those of the Gentiles who turn to God,

Act 15:24 As we have heard that some persons from our number have disturbed you with their teaching, unsettling your minds and throwing you into confusion, although we gave them no express orders or instructions [on the points in question],

Act 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to lay upon you any greater burden than these indispensable requirements:

Then>>>>>>>>

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who are bent on being under the Law, will you listen to what the Law [really] says?

Are you free or bond? Tell us where this NC tithe was instituted and authorized. Please

Found this post on another site from someone defending Steve Gaines from almost 3 years ago:

"...I have heard every sermon that he has preached and I can tell you that his messages rarily ever mention tithing... "

Comment by Billie — February 27, 2007

"I agree with your opinion that the, “savingbellevue” site has all but destroyed the reputation of our great church. I loved our church under the leadership of Dr. Rogers. Dr. Steve Gaines has been a, “Joshua” for us and some of our people have chosen to turn to Egypt instead of going on into Jericho and claiming our promise land. I can honestly say that I have grown, tremendously, spiritually under the leadership of our new pastor. I follow closely as he declaresGod’s Word and I have not found one single mistake. He has made a few decisions which I questioned until I learned all of the facts and based upon all of the information he had I believe he made the only decision he could have made. I, along with thousands in our church are sick and tired of the members of the, “savingbellevue” site. I wish to thank you for giving us a opportunity to express our feelings of disappointment and disapproval of what these hypocrites have done. I ask that you and your readers please do not judge our pastor and the thousands of faithful servants, of our Lord and Savior who remain faithful, by these few people who have the means and intelligence to instigate such a demonic force against God’s servants. We covet your support and prayers.In regards to the bloger statement that Brother Steve preaches every Sunday on tithing, this is a false statement. I have heard every sermon that he has preached and I can tell you that his messages rarily ever mention tithing and the one sermon that he did preach on the subject was one of if not the best sermon I ever heard preached on tithing. Their web site is filled with lies and deception.Thank you for your wise observation!"

Grace and Truth to You [Pastor Wade Burleson] > The New Covenant Emphasizes Being Led by the Spirit: The Old Covenant Emphasizes the Law.On several blogs today there is an ongoing discussion by preachers and laymen regarding the practice of teaching what is called "storehouse tithing." The discussion is a good one, the only negative being the tendency of some to personalize disagreement by making moral judgments against those who view things differently than they do. Some who believe in "storehouse tithing" have called those who don't "antinomian" (meaning people who are "against God's law"), and some who don't believe in storehouse tithing have a tendency to call those preachers who do "greedy" or "selfish." My name and church has been brought into the discussion, so I thought I would take this opportunity to share my beliefs on the matter.

The whole “Prove the Tithe Sunday” concept strikes me as being the same as “casting a fleece.” God’s word is sufficient, God has nothing to “prove.” Tithing, whether it is 2% or 100%, is a blessing in and of itself. The whole concept of “Prove the Tithe Sunday” seems a bit like selling indulgences or like a spiritual lottery. It’s almost like, “step right up folks and put your money down, the absolute minimum is 10% but for many of you the amount is 15, 20, 25 percent or more. The more you give the more you please God, the more you please God the more He will bless you. Don’t give enough, uup sorry you lose all of your blessings, try again next week, where we will once again play, ‘Prove the Tithe Sunday.’”------------------------------------"...I have heard every sermon that he has preached and I can tell you that his messages rarily ever mention tithing... "

Comment by Billie — February 27, 2007You are kidding, right? Or do you sleep through SG’s sermons? Even in the years before he came, he always had a reference to tithing in his sermons.Lydia, I do not have a ready answer for you because I completely and totally agree with you on principle. The Sabbath, Saturday, should truly be a day of rest. We all would be better if we did. The first day of the week, Sunday, is the day of Christian worship. Unfortunately, our modern lives impinge on both.

Gal 4:10 You observe [particular] days and months and seasons and years! Gal 4:11 I am alarmed [about you], lest I have labored among and over you to no purpose and in vain.

The Sabbath is part of the ordinances instituted by Moses. Did Abraham observe the Sabbath? How about Noah or Jacob?

Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God;....

Did He abolish the enmity and annull the decrees and ordinances or not?

Eph 2:15 By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace. Eph 2:16 And [He designed] to reconcile to God both [Jew and Gentile, united] in a single body by means of His cross, thereby killing the mutual enmity and bringing the feud to an end.

Good word, junk. I think some have missed the point, not as much here as on some other blogs. I have no problem with anyone who believes in "10% storehouse tithing" or practices it. My point is, so far no one has been able to show me, chapter and verse, where in the Bible it says you are to give the magic number of "10% of your income in an undesignated fashion to your local church."

Nor do I appreciate being bullied by a man who is paid more every year than many of his sheep will make in 20 years by the very same organization to which I'm being "encouraged" to give. It's just a little disingenuous.

Was not the LAW of tithing given to the Jews? Are then the Gentiles to become Jews to be under their law?Allen

12:00 PM, February 02, 2010

Allen, That is exactly right.

Ezekial,

Galatians nails this down about the Law.

2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Galatians 3: 2-4

(This passage is what bothers me when folks talk about blessings because they tithe. It takes the place of faith alone)

18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

Abraham was saved by faith alone and we inherit the Promise to Abraham.

What folks also do not realize who believe in a 'tithe' is that believers, both Jew and Gentile who became believers, had no where to take the 'tithe'. It was something you had to present to the Levite Priest for the temple.

Call it giving or offerings but don't call it a tithe. And don't say it has to go to a church building. It doesn't.

"However, if you love your church, if you trust the leadership, if you observe that the money is being used wisely according to scriptural guidelines, then I would think you would want to consistently support it financially. If the tithe (excuse the expression) is a base amount(whatever you decide that to be) you give as a discipline, what is the uproar?"

None that I can see as long as "scriptural guidelines" don't include beating it out of the sheep.

Mat 23:1 THEN JESUS said to the multitudes and to His disciples, Mat 23:2 The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat [of authority]. Mat 23:3 So observe and practice all they tell you; but do not do what they do, for they preach, but do not practice.

Jesus came first to the Jews and He was talking to Jews. Jews that were under the law of Moses. He told them clearly that He didn't come to abolish that law but to fulfill it.

He did fulfill it and we uphold it. Not by observing the ordinances and the letter but by our love for Him and for our Neighbor. The new commandments.

We Gentiles on the other hand were never under that covenant agreement that He made with Israel through Moses. That covenant was broken by Israel and the letter was nailed to the cross. Let's leave it there, Israel couldn't follow it and we can't either outside Christ anyway.

Col 2:13 And you who were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh (your sensuality, your sinful carnal nature), [God] brought to life together with [Christ], having [freely] forgiven us all our transgressions, Col 2:14 Having cancelled and blotted out and wiped away the handwriting of the note (bond) with its legal decrees and demands which was in force and stood against us (hostile to us). This [note with its regulations, decrees, and demands] He set aside and cleared completely out of our way by nailing it to [His] cross.

If by extension you are saying that we should listen to preachers today and tithe as they tell us then by default, you are putting them in Moses seat and they are preaching Moses' law.

"Lydia, you and I agree on this. However, if you love your church, if you trust the leadership, if you observe that the money is being used wisely according to scriptural guidelines, then I would think you would want to consistently support it financially. If the tithe (excuse the expression) is a base amount(whatever you decide that to be) you give as a discipline, what is the uproar? "

I might love my church very much but if the Holy Spirit says give it somewhere else instead, I must obey. That would mean I could not worship in the church building if I do not always support it? Now we are getting into works again.

Ok, there were no buildings being built for worship in the NT Body so I can live with that. We can meet in a field or basement. It is cheaper and being a better steward of money. The NC believers were not supporting a church building. They were supporting the poor and needy in teh Body of believers all over. INcluding those taking OUT the Gospel.

"I think the main question in regard to this thread is the abuse by some pastors of the principle of tithing."

That is the whole point. There is NO principle of tithing in the New Covenant. It is radical giving. 10% could mean one is in great sin.

"Matt. 23:1-23 pretty much covers it."

How does Matt 23 cover it? Jesus is speaking to Jews, scribes and Pharisees. Jesus kept the law perfectly and pointing out how they abused the law. You cannot take that passage and map it to a tithe in the New Covenant. Jesus had not nailed it to the Cross yet.

" Also, there's the old quote of: "A fool and his money are soon parted." Those pastors who abuse that principle cannot do it unless their people cooperate. This is all getting rather nit-picking to me - and with that I will say nothing further on the matter of the tithe.:0) No applause, please!"

It has no where else to go but to get nit picky when one brings the OC laws into the NC. That is the problem!

Grace and Truth to You [Wade Burleson] > Free From the Law Oh Blessed Condition! The Reasons You Should Welcome the Charge of Antinomianism.There is a tendency among some brothers in the Southern Baptist Convention to call "antinomian" (i.e. "against the law") those Christians who don't hold to certain hard and fast "rules" or "laws" those brothers wish to impose on everyone. For example, in a recent discussion over "tithing," one pastor called "antinomian" those Christians who disagreed with his belief that God's "law" demands every believer give 10% of gross income to the local church. This Southern Baptist pastor then writes, "Antinomianism has raised a huge red flag to me and many other pastors. We will ... sound the alarm which will reverberate throughout the SBC to face this issue head on."

Since it is a woman's perogative to change her mind - is it also true for a man?

Back on here again not to debate more about the tithe but to say to Lydia and NASS that you have caused me to investigate more the matter of tithing and I concede that you have valid arguments.That's why honest debate is good -it makes one think. So thank you for stirring up my nest, so to speak.

Again - the main focus of the thread, I believe, is, is it right for a pastor to put a heavy yoke upon his people in the matter of tithing and giving. I think we would all agree with a resoundingNO! Is it right for people who are struggling to maintain the basics in life to be pressured to support lavish spending by the church? And we would all agree - NO!

A Baptist girl was walking down the street with a Catholic boy. They passed a Catholic church and the boy crosses himself and says, "Hail Mary full of grace pray for us." The pair walks a little further and passes a Baptist church. The girl immediately stands at attention and salutes and declares, "Every Baptist a tither."

Not much really. I found the cache of this page on Google. I think the information is several years old as I found the same info about his children on another site, and it was from 2006.

Drew Tucker

Former Associate Pastor of The Church at Pinnacle Hills

Drew Tucker is the former Associate Pastor of The Church at Pinnacle Hills, the North Campus of The First Baptist Church of Springdale. Drew formerly served as the Associate Pastor of Education and Family Ministries at The First Baptist Church of Springdale from 1996 until moving to the newly started North Campus in August 2001. Under the leadership of the Senior Pastor, Dr. Ronnie Floyd, Drew has been instrumental in seeing this campus grow from 350 members to a current average of almost 1700 weekly.

Reverend Tucker served at Hickory Grove Baptist Church from 1983 until 1996. From 1983 until 1990 he was the Minister of Family Life and Activities and then transitioned in 1990 as the Minister of Education until God called him to Northwest Arkansas. Drew has always had a passion for sports and recreation and was an Assistant Basketball Coach at The University of North Carolina, Charlotte and at Florida Southern College. Drew has put his talents and passion to use on the mission field, on several short-term mission trips to Taiwan, Hong Kong, Hawaii, and Brazil.

Drew received his Bachelors Degree from Florida Southern College, where he attended on a four year Basketball Scholarship. Drew then followed his call and attended Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Drew has been married to his wife, Kimberlee for 23 years. They have three children, Drew Jr., who will be attending Southeastern Theological Seminary this fall with his new bride Jessi, daughter, Katie, who is in her first year at Texas A&M University, and son, Austin, who is a Junior at Shiloh Christian School.

First Baptist Springdale is Ronnie Floyd's church. Ronnie Floyd, you may recall, was nominated by Johnny Hunt for president of the SBC in 2006 and lost to Frank Page. This is off topic, but FBC Springdale may be best known for its (rumor of, at least -- I can find no photo of it) fire engine kiddie baptistry. A man who claimed to be a member said, "I am a member of FBC Springdale, and we DO NOT have a fire engine baptistry. We don't even have a baptistry for the kids - we baptize them in the sanctuary with everyone else." So it would be more believable if someone could produce a photo of this mythical "fire truck" baptistry that's been mentioned on many of the Baptist blogs. The children's program at FBC Springdale, described by its designer as "just like going on a ride at Disney World" was profiled in Christianity Today.

Mark Dougharty was "Associate Pastor" when he left almost three years ago, and the position was never filled after that. I always predicted Grant Gaines would be hired as Associate Pastor when he finished seminary, so if that wasn't the plan, I wonder why it has gone unfilled all this time. The church seems to have gotten by just fine all this time (relatively speaking) without another high-$$$ yes-man on staff. Why now, when receipts are down, did they decide to bring another one on board?

For some reason I was impressed to return to this site this morning. I have not been here for a long time and did not know if you were still active. I was amazed to find that I of all people am still being quoted. I refuse to be drawn back into vain arguments which do not promote Godly thoughts. I do wish to make a statement regarding the past, present, and future. In the past I spoke rather harshly in defense of the work and unity of the body of Christ (church) public bickering does nothing but hurt the cause of Christ. I am ashamed that I took part! I love the body of Christ of which I am a member and as a member I have a responsibility to care for leadership and help, not hurt them. In the present, I am member of the body of Christ attending BBC congregation. I am not here to stand in defense of my pastor, he doesn't need me to defend he nor the sermons he feels led to preach. We all would do well to keep our eyes off of other human beings and keep them focused on Christ who is the head of His body. If one sings praises or insults to another man he is not doing what pleases God. We are headed to the great throne room where each of us will be judged and we all have much for which we will give an account. Some of you know that I have written a book, "God's Timed Zone" God created time and He has given to each of us a measure of His time. Every moment is precious and every moment is an opportunity to store up riches in heaven. Money and wealth are earthly means which will burn leaving behind ash. Our witness for the Truth of God's Word and our sincere desire to use His time wisely will be there at the throne to testify for or against us. I pray for the unity of all of God's children but I alone will stand and give an account of my time. May the God of peace lead, direct, and guide each of you to His place of quiet rest, "Near to the Heart of God"***I love that song!Billie

"I pray for the unity of all of God's children but I alone will stand and give an account of my time."

Billie, The unity Jesus Christ is praying about is Spiritual Unity. That includes the truth of the Word in both thought and deed.

There can be no unity with wolves or false teachers. To pretend such is to mock our Lord. One can be deceived out of ignorance (1 Tim) but to know the truth and deceive others is a whole other thing. Paul makes this clear.

And yes, we will give an account for supporting wolves. It means we did not know HIM or His Word.

Pray for Gaines to repent. Pray for him to stop preaching Jezebel sermons about other women when his own daughters dress so provacitively so often. Pray that he will stop pounding on Old Covenant storehouse sermons to increase his coffers and maintain his lifestyle. Pray that he will know the Word enough to know that a confessed pedophile minister is a violation of 1 Tim 3. There is more but I will stop. He has disqualified himself in both word and deed.

This is serious so your words of indirect, backhanded rebuke are meaningless to many of us. It could very well be you are deceived out of ignorance. For that, I have compassion and mercy. But there will come a time to eat meat. Please do not miss it.

Just curious, but to be a deacon at BBC there are some qualifications, #3 is of course is :

#3 The deacon would be expected to give a tithe (one-tenth) of his income for the work of Christ through the local church.

and of course David Coombs and Steve Gaines check their records.

But how are #4 and #5 applied and enforced?

4. The deacon's family life should be an example. He should be the husband of one wife and must guide and lead his children and his own house well.Neither husband nor wife has been previously married.

5. The deacon and his wife should both have a clear and shining testimony for Jesus Christ.

Just wondering, does that apply when a Deacon and his 1st wife1) are not living together?2) are filing for divorce?3) have been granted a divorce?4) are living a single life after a divorce but "dating"?

or does this only apply if the Deacon "remarries"?

and who is in charge of enforcing this "...clear and shining testimony for Jesus Christ" ?

Philippians 4:14-18(14) Nevertheless, it was kind of you to share my troubles.(15) You Philippians also know that in the early days of the gospel, when I left Macedonia, no church participated with me in the matter of giving and receiving except for you.(16) Even while I was in Thessalonica, you provided for my needs not once, but twice.(17) It is not that I am looking for a gift. No, I am looking for the profit that accumulates to your account.(18) I have been paid in full and have more than enough. I am fully supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus what you sent-a fragrant aroma, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.(ISV)

Paul did receive support from the Philippian church and others.

2 Corinthians 11:8-9(8) I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you.(9) When I was with you and needed something, I did not bother any of you, because our brothers who came from Macedonia supplied everything I needed. I kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and I will continue to do so.(ISV) I would remind you that although Paul many times did refuse support from those he preached to, he is the one who wrote almost all the passages that deal with pastoral support. 1 Corinthians 9:1-14; Galatians 6:6; 1 Timothy 5:17,18 If you think the pastor shouldn't be paid take up your disagreement with God, Who is the One Who insprired and directed these writings.

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