The fuel cell car is thought by many on this site
to be a non polluting solution compared to diesel
or hybrids. What about the energy to produce it?
What about the vapors? Will we end up driving in
fog in heavely traffic areas?

01-22-2006 07:25 AM

Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

The fuel cell car is thought by many on this site
to be a non polluting solution compared to diesel
or hybrids. What about the energy to produce it?
What about the vapors? Will we end up driving in
fog in heavely traffic areas?

I rented a Nissan Micra in Europe September.
Great car. Small on the outside, but roomy in front.
Even my wife loved it. We averaged 40mpg even
with the gasoline engine. It also comes with a great
diesel engine. Can just imagine what the mpg that one
gets! 60 maybe. Of course its not sold in either version
in the USA. Maybe the goverment does not want it??http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-te.../micra03-.html

01-22-2006 08:44 PM

Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

Unfortunately the government tried to force out the
diesel. Diesel at the pump is more expensive due
to higher taxes compared to gasoline. If taxes were
the same it would be quite cheaper since it cost less
to produce and each barrel of oil will yield much more
diesel than gasoline. In addition they also give
the hybrids a tax deduction which is the same as
a subsidy. So much for the "market forces".

01-23-2006 12:58 AM

Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

Mike wrote:
"you can get a basic Civic LX that still gets good fuel economy for a gas car, for thousands less"

You're comparing a base mid class to the fully loaded class of the vehicle, which leads to your next point:

"There is no way you will make up the price differential for the HCH over the conventional HC, based on fuel economy alone. In fact it is a losing proposition, from an ecnomic standpoint"

Using that logic let's look at Jettas. Base price vs top of the line.http://www.vw.com/
The base mid-line 2.5 version is $20,000. A loaded TDI cost $30,000

Using that logic the TDI is also a loosing proposition and you will never recoup that $10,000 in fuel savings alone.

Don't get me wrong here...if one is looking for the best dollar for mile vehicle then hybrids aren't it...but neither are TDI's. There's quite a few new vehiles in the $10,000-13,000 range for better dollar value.http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...bute2=under15k

"The price is in fact close to what an LX gets at trade-in"

Where are your recources or is this just made-up?

http://www.kbb.com/
Trade in for the HCH is $13,800 for my 60K miles which is MSRP for the base LX Civic when new.
The base LX is only worth $9000 so one

could expect about $4000 more for a HCH at trade in.

"On the other hand the TDI option on the Jetta is now about $1800 more. So the TDI has a faster payback and it is reasonable to expect a return on your investment on fuel economy alone"

See my above notes.
Why are you using a Civic LX for your comparison while the advanced Civic EX is a closer model?
A similarly equipped EX went for around $17,000 with discounts while I paid $18,500 MSRP for my HCH.

The difference was lower than your TDI option.

Diesel fuel in my area is still costs around 10% more than gasoline, so you'll have to drive about 10% further to break even in your TDI.

Eric wrote:
"The government tried to force out the diesel"

Back (especially) in the 1970's diesel autos grew their reputation for low quality, smoking and hard to start vehiles with year-after-year-after-year broken promises by both the manufacturer and many of their enthusiasts.

It was the cars and the market that pushed diesels out.

"So much for the "market forces"

Hey, I'm with you on that one. Not sure why hybrids need a subsidy knowing they can't keep them on the lot as it is.

01-23-2006 02:05 AM

Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

There is a penalty on owning a diesel simply because the government tax the fuel so much.
Take away the taxes and you will see that diesel
is quite cheaper than gasoline. That is in addition
to the great mpg, longevity and low maintenance.
But I dont think the hybrids enthusiasts out there
are willing to even acknowledge the fact that
their cars are being subsidized by the IRS
and some states and local government. Some of
that loss in tax will have to be made up in one way
or another. Maybe by the buyers of highly taxed
diesel fuel. Thats why one cant blame some oweners of diesel cars for using untaxed heating oil.

01-23-2006 03:11 AM

Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

Hi Steve

Yes the market forced the diesels out of the market in the 1970's, but that was the lousy
built Olds diesel (a coverted gasoline engine job).
Can you just adress the fact that today the diesel
fuel is artificially high due to taxes???
Looking forward to the reply.

The engines you mention played a small part of it. For example my dad had an Isuzu diesel back then and while the body was good, the engine showed its reputation and he got rid of it. That wasn't a converted GM engine.
A good friend of mine owned a Golf Diesel which had a terrible habit of not starting and when it did blew black smoke for 3-5 minutes until warmed up.
It was in the shop most of the time I knew him when the dealer finally told him that it is normal for diesel cars to smoke. He moved into the city and it couldn't pass emission. Four dealers gave him so much hastle about this that he finally sold it as well.

Anyone can research tons of links about chronically problematic diesel cars of both late and recent models and the problem with diesel cars can't be blamed on the U.S. MFG's.
If you'd like I can research and post links to these troubled foreign diesel autos. VW seems to be the worst.

"Can you just adress the fact that today the diesel
fuel is artificially high due to taxes"

How about doing some research to your claim with links?

01-24-2006 07:52 AM

Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

"Where are your recources or is this just made-up?" No, I did not make that up.

The Canadian Black Book gives the average used price of a 2003 Honda Civic LX sedan with factory air as $13080. The Canadian black book is what every car dealer in Canada uses when appraising a trade-in.

The same source gives the HCH of the same year an average used value of $13650. You can't go to the Blackbook site directly; you have to link to it through another car site. Use www.toyota.ca, that's where I link from. Do your own research in the Canadian market.

The Canadian Civic LX was in 2003, the top-of-the-sedan, then one you'd buy if you didn't get the HCH; in 2003 Canadians couldn't get the EX/Si trim in a sedan. It has electric windows and doorlocks and ABS brakes, AM/FM/CD, cruise control, etc. What more did the HCH give? If you wanted greater content you could buy an Acura EL Touring, which is the rough equivalent to the US Civic EX/Si. It sold for a couple of thousand more than the Civic LX, but 2003s also sell in the mid-$13000 range. Seems like the market thinks that the Civic is, at best, a $13,000 car regardless of trim level, after three years.

I rest my case: regardless of what options the trim level came with, the $28000 hybrid depreciated to within $600 of the $22,000 conventional version, within 3 years. For some reason, the Canadian market HATES the HCH as a used car.