Never a lion in the sense he should have been or he was a lion but you don't think he should have been?

Drama Queenie wrote:You are a chauvinist of the quaintest kind. About as threatening as Jack Duckworth, you are a harmless relic of that cherished era when things were 'different'. Now get back to drawing a moustache on that page three model

The Great DeFector wrote:Never a lion in the sense he should have been or he was a lion but you don't think he should have been?

I think there were better options at the time, he probably reached his peak with Ireland, but he was an iconic figure in Munster as a player becoming a coach and you get the general impression he was fierce competitor on the pitch who loved a craic and a beer afterwards and hence he was a genuinely popular man in the game.

Cool, they're making a big deal of his death over here but I can't say I heard much about the guy.

Drama Queenie wrote:You are a chauvinist of the quaintest kind. About as threatening as Jack Duckworth, you are a harmless relic of that cherished era when things were 'different'. Now get back to drawing a moustache on that page three model

The Great DeFector wrote:Cool, they're making a big deal of his death over here but I can't say I heard much about the guy.

You are obviously not a Munsterman

I don't even know if I'm an Ulsterman to be honest, with the political crap with our neighbors.

Drama Queenie wrote:You are a chauvinist of the quaintest kind. About as threatening as Jack Duckworth, you are a harmless relic of that cherished era when things were 'different'. Now get back to drawing a moustache on that page three model

Never a lion in the sense he should have been or he was a lion but you don't think he should have been?

Wasn't one and that was probably fair, despite a long international career.He was unlucky though in that the Lions squad depends a great deal, especially in oversubscribed positions such as the back row, on which team is strongest in the previous five/six nations and who is given the job as coach.Foley became an international in 1995 which means he covered the 1997 tour of South Africa which was predominantly English and had the Scot Ian McGeechan as coach. France had won the five nations championship, England were runners up with three wins from four and everyone else had a nightmare, with Ireland pretty awful and bottom of the table, so a Lions call up was never likely.Four years later, the Lions went to Australia and England were still dominant among the home nations. Remember, this was basically the England team that would go on to win the world cup and Graham Henry made them half the squad. The Irish had actually come second in the six nations thanks to scraping a few wins, but were miles behind in dominance and apart from call-ups for injury and shoo-ins like O'Driscoll, Wood and O'Gara, the Irish didn't really feature beyond the second row.In 2005, Foley was at the end of his international career anyway, but not one Irishman made it into the eight back rows taken to New Zealand.If you (perhaps wrongly) think of the three back-row positions as relatively interchangeable, as they tend to do more for Lions tours, he was never that near selection I would have thought, always being overshadowed by at least one of his own countrymen such as Eric Miller, Simon Easterby or David Wallace let alone everyone else.And also, quite simply, both the Welsh and English were churning out loads of incredibly good 6s, 7s and 8s then (think Quinnell, Charvis and Williams, Hill, Back and Dallaglio) so it was pretty difficult for anyone else to get a look-in.I think that NOT playing for the Lions is not really that relevant in terms of his career. He was old school (play hard, then play hard) and his love of, loyalty to, leadership of and success with Munster is probably rather more important.

Never a lion in the sense he should have been or he was a lion but you don't think he should have been?

Wasn't one and that was probably fair, despite a long international career.He was unlucky though in that the Lions squad depends a great deal, especially in oversubscribed positions such as the back row, on which team is strongest in the previous five/six nations and who is given the job as coach.Foley became an international in 1995 which means he covered the 1997 tour of South Africa which was predominantly English and had the Scot Ian McGeechan as coach. France had won the five nations championship, England were runners up with three wins from four and everyone else had a nightmare, with Ireland pretty awful and bottom of the table, so a Lions call up was never likely.Four years later, the Lions went to Australia and England were still dominant among the home nations. Remember, this was basically the England team that would go on to win the world cup and Graham Henry made them half the squad. The Irish had actually come second in the six nations thanks to scraping a few wins, but were miles behind in dominance and apart from call-ups for injury and shoo-ins like O'Driscoll, Wood and O'Gara, the Irish didn't really feature beyond the second row.In 2005, Foley was at the end of his international career anyway, but not one Irishman made it into the eight back rows taken to New Zealand.If you (perhaps wrongly) think of the three back-row positions as relatively interchangeable, as they tend to do more for Lions tours, he was never that near selection I would have thought, always being overshadowed by at least one of his own countrymen such as Eric Miller, Simon Easterby or David Wallace let alone everyone else.And also, quite simply, both the Welsh and English were churning out loads of incredibly good 6s, 7s and 8s then (think Quinnell, Charvis and Williams, Hill, Back and Dallaglio) so it was pretty difficult for anyone else to get a look-in.I think that NOT playing for the Lions is not really that relevant in terms of his career. He was old school (play hard, then play hard) and his love of, loyalty to, leadership of and success with Munster is probably rather more important.

Drama Queenie wrote:You are a chauvinist of the quaintest kind. About as threatening as Jack Duckworth, you are a harmless relic of that cherished era when things were 'different'. Now get back to drawing a moustache on that page three model

Yeah, it was surprising how lackluster the ABS were. Maybe all their effort had been put into breaking the record for most consecutive test victories and beating up their SH counterparts that they lost motivation for this match nearing the end of a long season.

Credit to Ireland they showed the only way to beat the ABS is to take them on at their own game. The ABS usually survive due to their depth on the bench, but in this match, they looked exhausted.

Congratulations Ireland, it only took you 111 years but you've finally done it.

It's before my time but I've been told, he never came back from Karangahape Road.

Ireland were fantastic.It seems that once every couple of years the right NH team in the right mood can catch the tired or unprepped All Blacks napping.Until this weekend England's 2012 dismantling was the best recent example.Thought it was going to be the same in 2014 except the buggers woke up.

It should also be noted that Ireland have come desperately close on at least two occasions, and it does seem remarkable that a genuine side like Ireland hadn't beaten the ABs before this match. I suspect the rematch will be very interesting indeed- it could act as a catalyst for both teams. The local coverage of the loss has been surprisingly positive, much like it was after the England 2012. I guess it's easy to respect a side willing to play the sort of expansive rugby that the ABs have made their own.

It's before my time but I've been told, he never came back from Karangahape Road.

Drama Queenie wrote:You are a chauvinist of the quaintest kind. About as threatening as Jack Duckworth, you are a harmless relic of that cherished era when things were 'different'. Now get back to drawing a moustache on that page three model

The Write Profile wrote:It should also be noted that Ireland have come desperately close on at least two occasions,

I agree that this was really important. To have been so close the last time, they knew that solid defence wasn't quite enough. In that last quarter when the AB's were coming back at them, scoring that last try was crucial. And the Foley factor can't be understated either obviously.

The Write Profile wrote:I suspect the rematch will be very interesting indeed- it could act as a catalyst for both teams. The local coverage of the loss has been surprisingly positive, much like it was after the England 2012. I guess it's easy to respect a side willing to play the sort of expansive rugby that the ABs have made their own.

I think I'd be very afraid! To catch the All Blacks once is one thing, to play them again two weeks later is very dangerous. But fair play to the ambition of the Irish RFU in taking on that schedule.

Nikki Gradual wrote:Ireland were fantastic.It seems that once every couple of years the right NH team in the right mood can catch the tired or unprepped All Blacks napping.Until this weekend England's 2012 dismantling was the best recent example.Thought it was going to be the same in 2014 except the buggers woke up.

I don't think the All Blacks were tired, they certainly weren't under-prepped coming off the 4 nations.

Tired is the excuse that NH teams always used to use for getting thumped at the end of the season - they are professional athletes that isn't really good enough.

New Zealand were beaten by the better side on the day. Destroyed by a side playing furiously passionate rugby at high skill levels. Apart from 15 minutes in the second half, where commendably they scored tries, they were never in it and the final score line flattered them a bit.

Their line out was destroyed in the first half and although they were missing their starting locks this sort of thing wasn't supposed to matter to the All Blacks, but it looks like the vaunted strength in depth across the park may be a bit of a myth. They are human.

Does it change the fact that they are head and shoulders the best team in the world? No it doesn't, they will probably go another 10-20 games unbeaten now because that is what New Zealand teams do, they take their knocks they get up and they come back at you harder than ever because their pride has been slightly dented.

That is the mark of truly great sides, not being unbeaten but how you react to being beaten.

Having said that I think the Dublin game is a 50:50, I doubt Ireland can recreate that perfect storm of passion and skill to order and New Zealand will be stronger with some players coming back.

The England match in 2012 turned out just to be a speed bump on their onward road, and I think this will be as well, but it does give everyone else heart.

Australia, Ireland and England all have teams that can beat New Zealand on the day but those days will continue to be rare unless they can consolidate their position and build a team as England did up to 2003.

Of those 3 England look best placed to do that simply because of resources.

What is interesting after looking at some very brief and specific video of the match is how rattled the New Zealand team were by the result in Chicago and how their answer to it seemed to be violence that went over the line on a few occasions in the form of a tactic of high tackling.

Head high tackles a plenty, 2 yellow cards, 4 Irishmen with head injuries.

They didn't go out to play Ireland off the park they went out to bully them off the park, sadly it seemed to work. I think the Irish were just unprepared to be played against like that by New Zealand. If it had been SA they would have expected physicality that went up to an over the legal line and would have dealt with it better.

I think Jaco Pyper bottled it, he should have stamped down hard on that early on, he let it get out of hand. You can tell the Irish are upset despite being tight lipped, I wonder if we will see some citings.

I can't disagree with your summary - it was an ugly game enlivened by some occasional brilliance by Beauden Barrett- and the All Blacks seemed determined to grind the match out. Ireland were up to the challenge but could have been more enterprising, especially when you consider that the All Blacks were playing with only 14 men for 20 minutes.

It's before my time but I've been told, he never came back from Karangahape Road.