Patch 15640 and ret dps.

Just to begin i got to warn people that there is a major mistake on the MMO-Champ changes notes. Hammer of wrath still gives holy power and still useable during avenging wrath. The tooltip they datamined is the prot version that returned to the spec in this patch, it grants no holy power and cannot be used during aw.

Now theres a great deal that changed in our priority. After some test on the beta just now i found out that HoW is hitting harder then anything but TV and now also procs mastery, with both combined on dummy i was hitting for 55k (HoW+mastery). This is really what i wanted. With the nerf to Holy Avenger and this buff i believe both talents (holy avenger and sanctified wrath) will be much closer. Gotta remember that while these talents are straigh output upgrade for our classes, we will be balanced around these cooldown so nerfed holy avenger doesent really mean its a nerf, more like a fix to balance the talents. At the end of the day dps is dps when number pass go.

CS also got a buff and its now hitting as hard as exo and proc mastery on top.

Holy Avenger is an independent CD. You can use it any time and for 15 seconds each of your HP generating abilites grant 3 instead of 1 HP. For me, this, combined with wings, is still stronger than sanctified wrath alone. At least for pvp, sanctified wrath will prolly be the worst talent due to its wings dependency (3 min cd). Holy Avenger could be used outside of wings and not only for dmg but for survival as well.

Holy Avenger is an independent CD. You can use it any time and for 15 seconds each of your HP generating abilites grant 3 instead of 1 HP. For me, this, combined with wings, is still stronger than sanctified wrath alone. At least for pvp, sanctified wrath will prolly be the worst talent due to its wings dependency (3 min cd). Holy Avenger could be used outside of wings and not only for dmg but for survival as well.

True and i said the same when i tested both ability. But currently HoW hits nearly as hard as TV+mastery and is all holy damage, it might not be as clear cut as it was, wings last longer too. Just for pvp note, Devotion aura as ret ftw.. we can cast heals!

Yeah, devotion aura is nice. But in all honestly overdue. We have nothing against fear, stun or anything. Now we have at least something against silence. And if we used emancipate right before devotion aura, you prolly won't be able to cast more than one heal. It'd be interesting to know, if you can break silence with that or if you are just not able to use the ability then. The latter option would be typical for paladin design.

When I look at DKs and what they have right now, we are still far away from their arsenal. AMS, IBF, Lichborne or Purgatory, 100% Death's Advance (rofl), Death Pact or Conversion or Death Siphon and the new desecrated ground, which just laughs about any rmp nuke attempts. That is just so awesome and strong. Our talents are pure lackluster compared to this. As I understand, DKs lose desecration, though. And that's about time. This effect was so op and still is in cata that I simply can't believe how NS + Desecration could have ever made it into live.

The counter to the dk arsenal would always be "bubble". But f*ck bubble. Its cd is way too high and the 50% reduced dmg done makes it just a silly ability for ret. I would exchange bubble for AMS any time. I just dunno if unbreakable spirit is worth anything. I don't like bubble (it really is only useful for holy palas.......) and a more frequent access to that lame ability wouldn't make me happy. I will have to stick with clemency I guess, which doesn't make me happy neither..

I do think that ret feels way better than on live. But our talents just suck big time, when I compare them to those of other classes.

Yeah, devotion aura is nice. But in all honestly overdue. We have nothing against fear, stun or anything. Now we have at least something against silence. And if we used emancipate right before devotion aura, you prolly won't be able to cast more than one heal. It'd be interesting to know, if you can break silence with that or if you are just not able to use the ability then. The latter option would be typical for paladin design.

When I look at DKs and what they have right now, we are still far away from their arsenal. AMS, IBF, Lichborne or Purgatory, 100% Death's Advance (rofl), Death Pact or Conversion or Death Siphon and the new desecrated ground, which just laughs about any rmp nuke attempts. That is just so awesome and strong. Our talents are pure lackluster compared to this. As I understand, DKs lose desecration, though. And that's about time. This effect was so op and still is in cata that I simply can't believe how NS + Desecration could have ever made it into live.

The counter to the dk arsenal would always be "bubble". But f*ck bubble. Its cd is way too high and the 50% reduced dmg done makes it just a silly ability for ret. I would exchange bubble for AMS any time. I just dunno if unbreakable spirit is worth anything. I don't like bubble (it really is only useful for holy palas.......) and a more frequent access to that lame ability wouldn't make me happy. I will have to stick with clemency I guess, which doesn't make me happy neither..

I do think that ret feels way better than on live. But our talents just suck big time, when I compare them to those of other classes.

I agree that our talents are really not interesting. However despite that as a spec ret is actually very damn functional for pvp. Hell in duels i can kill cata geared unholy and frost dk eye closed despite all their fun talents, now that resil was just fixed. Dont think about killing blood tho, then again blood cant kill you either. Ret just does not bring the same tools and i belive off healing and stuff like devotion aura can be good for an arena team, more then stuff like desecrated ground. Remains to be seen how everything works out at 90. Real problem is not the power of rets ability, its that everything we get in the talents are simply not anything interesting or its stuff we already had but made stronger.

Also theres no way anyone would trade Bubble for AMS in current cata damage. You should tell that one to arena dks that get killed inside AMS by rogue teams lol. At least we dont die inside bubble instantly.

Sanctified wrath is an annoying talent, they have buffed hammer of wrath damage to make it more 'viable' over HA. This is bad.

The buff to hammer is nice, and should stay, but they need to re-think the sanctified wrath talent all-together, in its current form, hammer damage will just be nerfed over and over again due to the amount of QQ if its actually any good. I dont really see the massive advantage to having the cd removed from hammer over HA anyway, its not like you can't still use hammer at all (on a reduced cd from haste as well) with wings now, they probably need to change the ability it removes the cooldown for...or something that wont just get nerfed because 'OP melee ret pala killed me from range' QQ

Also Holy avenger have not been tied to GotAK since the first beta patch.

If that's the case, awesome. Ret and Prot need some decent group utility to compete in raid groups and such and "Devotion Aura" is perfect. This ability could also make "Repentance" more viable in PvP since everyone now can clearcast without getting silence or interrupted.

Just to begin i got to warn people that there is a major mistake on the MMO-Champ changes notes. Hammer of wrath still gives holy power and still useable during avenging wrath. The tooltip they datamined is the prot version that returned to the spec in this patch, it grants no holy power and cannot be used during aw.

Now theres a great deal that changed in our priority. After some test on the beta just now i found out that HoW is hitting harder then anything but TV and now also procs mastery, with both combined on dummy i was hitting for 55k (HoW+mastery). This is really what i wanted. With the nerf to Holy Avenger and this buff i believe both talents (holy avenger and sanctified wrath) will be much closer. Gotta remember that while these talents are straigh output upgrade for our classes, we will be balanced around these cooldown so nerfed holy avenger doesent really mean its a nerf, more like a fix to balance the talents. At the end of the day dps is dps when number pass go.

CS also got a buff and its now hitting as hard as exo and proc mastery on top.

My priority is now:

Inq
TV
HoW
CS
Exo
Judg

I'm not sure where you are coming up with that rotation but I would suggest more testing, our highest DPE is still Exorcism. Judgement and Crusader Strike are even higher then HoW in terms of DPE.

I'm not sure where you are coming up with that rotation but I would suggest more testing, our highest DPE is still Exorcism. Judgement and Crusader Strike are even higher then HoW in terms of DPE.

Not sure you tested the changes, but exo hit for less then CS and HoW in current build. HoW literally double exo damage... Judgement was always last place as far as i know and it still is, lowest damage ability, they all produce holy power. With the changes to mastery and buff to its damage.. im not sure id understand using ability that cause half the damage it does to produce the same holy power.

Hell just checked EJ again, even before that buff HoW was above CS and J. Now its gona be ahead of EXO. If you think otherwise please explain?

Not sure you tested the changes, but exo hit for less then CS and HoW in current build. HoW literally double exo damage... Judgement was always last place as far as i know and it still is, lowest damage ability, they all produce holy power. With the changes to mastery and buff to its damage.. im not sure id understand using ability that cause half the damage it does to produce the same holy power.

Hell just checked EJ again, even before that buff HoW was above CS and J. Now its gona be ahead of EXO. If you think otherwise please explain?

I've been testing all morning, Exorcism is still the highest DPE and nowhere on EJ does it state that HoW is ahead of Exo because it's not.

The closest rotation anyone has been able to come up with is - Inq > 5HP TV > Exo > HoW > CS > Judge > 3-4HP TV and I have HoW further down as it's lower DPE even the AP scaling is lower on HoW. My Exo crits for upwards of 70K I have yet to see HoW break 50K.

Judgement and Crusader Strike are even higher then HoW in terms of DPE.

Again, no. Hammer of Wrath damage far outweighs Exorcism and Judgement. It's probably true that Exorcism is higher than Crusader Strike, but Crusader Strike has the shorter cooldown and is more available. Here's what I can say the PVE priority is with the limited information we have atm:

I've been testing all morning, Exorcism is still the highest DPE and nowhere on EJ does it state that HoW is ahead of Exo because it's not.

The closest rotation anyone has been able to come up with is - Inq > 5HP TV > Exo > HoW > CS > Judge > 3-4HP TV and I have HoW further down as it's lower DPE even the AP scaling is lower on HoW. My Exo crits for upwards of 70K I have yet to see HoW break 50K.

Sounds like you didnt play with the new changes? Exo scaling got nerfed nearly 20% and base damage got nerfed too. It doesent hit anywhere near HoW and HoW procs mastery, outscaling Exo by alot. CS got buffed slightly too, according to the number im having it hits for more then exo if i account for mastery as well.

I also didnt say EJ said HoW was above, i said it was already above cs and j according to EJ before all these changes. No one really tested with mastery yet and im sure once they do HoW will be on top it outscale and out damage Exo by a large margin since today patch.

I've been testing all morning, Exorcism is still the highest DPE and nowhere on EJ does it state that HoW is ahead of Exo because it's not.

The closest rotation anyone has been able to come up with is - Inq > 5HP TV > Exo > HoW > CS > Judge > 3-4HP TV and I have HoW further down as it's lower DPE even the AP scaling is lower on HoW. My Exo crits for upwards of 70K I have yet to see HoW break 50K.

I'm a bit confused, but are you saying DPE as in Damage Per Energy (Holy Power)?