originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
a reply to: Wolfenz
Ya know, most of this 'Forgotten Human History' meme is based upon 'Brown people can't build cool #'. Pity it's not recognised for what it
is.

Not really. Some perhaps, like the pyramids. But the real questions about many places in ancient times comes from the difficulty for virtually all
cultures at the time to build some of these things, based on average technology. Like Balbek in Lebanon. 1000 ton blocks. Showing perplexity about how
they were moved in no way puts down ancient Phoenicians or Canaanites, but simply asks real questions: what culture of any kind back then were able to
move those and how? How if it would be challenging now did anybody do that 2-4000 years ago.

Actually 800 ton, three of them and they probably took years to bring into place. The difficulty is why heavy stones like that were not moved very
often. In ancient history about 40 really heavy stones were moved, that its. That covers a lot of different cultures and thousands of years of
time.

You can get an idea of what was needed by looking at how the Thunderstone was moved by the Russians and how the Romans (16th century) raised a number
of fallen Roman (classical) obelisks they had taken from Egypt. The heaviest was the Lateran Obelisk which comes in at 455 tons. That was moved from
Karnak in Egypt to Rome and erected in the 4th century/ re-erected in 1588.

originally posted by: SLAYER69
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck
Excuse me...
Most of my threads are very much on point about Brown People of various ethnicities being the ones who ARE the ones who built most those
possible sites which are often over looked as contributing to humanity.
Johnny?
Really?

I was not attacking your thread, so I should have been more specific. My apologies for that. We are awash in Ancient Aliens fantasy and the
attribution of monumental achievements in the ancient world goes too often to 'mysterious' peoples who subsequently disappeared, leaving the locals
picking their noses in wonder. The very mention of Cremo in a thread gets me foaming at the mouth.

You've posted a well thought out premise. Sorry about the collateral damage from my comments.

Yes the Milankovitch Cycle is indeed universally accepted - yet we have Glaciation occurring at the same time/rate in both the Northern and Southern
Hemispheres. There is no generally accepted explanation of why the ice ages should be globally synchronized if they are driven by Milankovitch orbital
fluctuations.

That's because the hemispheres were NOT synchronized in regards to glaciation as you claim.

Convenient that he apparently ignored his own findings to help meet an already erroneous Chronological theory by Penck-Bruckner. I guess when
you simply take one site at 65degrees North and apply it to the entire planet its easy to reach these absurd assumptions.

Good thing that's not what was happening then.

In regards to tilt Milankovitch suggested the axis moved a half degree in a very short time period - yet procession explains that we only
oscillate 2.2 degrees every 41,000 years. Am I missing something? Shouldn't we be experiencing enormous drops in Global Temperature at the same
intervals every 26k years? Enough to recreate the last Ice Age?

If the orbit was circular sure, but our orbit is elliptical which means variation in how much and the intensity of solar radiation reaching Earth. Do
you have a citation for Milankovitch suggesting that tilt shifted that far in such a shirt period of time?

Another note:

Temperatures 20,000 years ago in the Northern Hemisphere were at a Maximum 5-9 degrees colder then they are today. So if New York City is covered in
Ice - and its average temp in Summer today is 24 degrees - that meant during the LGM it was 17 degrees Celcius - Whats the freezing point of water
again?

Except that glaciation never reached as far south as NYC. Not even as far south as Albany.

Forgive me if I don't find any of this 'Plausible'

With the pick and choose method of which facts you're considering I can completely understand why you would find this implausible.

Also if were acknowledging orbits can change - why are we quick to assume that the Solar System has remained in its current state for 4.5
Billion years?

Nobody is acknowledging nor are the assuming anything in regards to orbits. The elliptical nature of orbits is easily discerned and once again,
Milankovitch Cycles refer only to axial tilt.

originally posted by: peter vlar
Except that glaciation never reached as far south as NYC. Not even as far south as Albany.

Mmmm...that kinda jumped out at me as my first thought was the Finger Lakes. Here's an excerpt from a website:

Glaciation in New York State: New York has been through many periods of mountain building and uplift, separated by millions of years of
erosion. One such period occurred in very recent geologic time, the Ice Age. In fact, it ended in New York only about 8000 years ago. The glaciers
were about one to two miles thick, and they covered almost all of the state, except for a small section in Southwest New York, known as the Salamanca
Re-entrant. The moving ice sheets scoured and rounded the Adirondack Mountains, and they dug out many deep "U-shaped" valleys, especially in the
Finger Lakes Region. Glacial erosion is responsible for the fjord of the Hudson River. (Tides on the Hudson reach Albany). The huge ice sheets carved
out the basins that became the Great Lakes (and the hundreds of smaller lakes found all over New York).
Link

to maltese5...
a reply to: Maltese5Rhino
I am fascinated by the Hal Saflieni Hypogeum..in which 7000 skeletons of homo capensis were interred...when found in 1902. I cannot now find the
Jesuit report or the Zammit report on line. and the book by Heindorff is not available either. two palentologists who saved two capensis skulls
cannot be found either. now here is the current strangeness. Karen Hudes, 20 years the atty for the World Bank, refers to Capensis hiding in the
Vatican and likely controlling the Vatican bank. what is your view on the Capensis...Hypogeum connection?????

I stand corrected. I thought it was the reverse, that while they did reach down near the fingers lakes in central ny but the Hudson Valley from a
little north of Albany was clear. Thanks for posting that. I knew that meltwAter erosion gave us the Hudson River but didn't think glaciation reached
this far South(I'm currently a little north of Albany). That's what happens when I trust my memory and don't brush up on the facts with some due
diligence.

What a great story you wrote again..But in those days I wonder if you saw a stump of wood floating in the water wouldn't a Neanderthal understand
that if something floats on water you can cross that water ???

That is a weird one. And I never heard of this "homo capensis" before.

I'm drawn back to the bushmen again out of fascination

There's a reason you've never heard of "H. Capensis". That's because it doesn't exist. The nomenclature came about as a result of misinterpretation
of data related to skull fragments found in the Transvaal about 100 years ago. It resurfaced in 2008 under the name "Boskop Man" in a Discovery a
article about a book inferring that Boskop man had brain capacity almost 50% larger than ours and lived from 10,000-30,000 years ago. It was written
by 2 reknowned neurologists but they had no expertise in Anthropology or Archaeology so they were attempting to draw paralels that simply didnt exist
in the fossil record. People like David Icke have also run wild with it to create fantastic tales in order to sell books.

originally posted by: 0bserver1
What a great story you wrote again..But in those days I wonder if you saw a stump of wood floating in the water wouldn't a Neanderthal understand
that if something floats on water you can cross that water ???

Most certainly. The biggest glitch in the puzzle is that the most likely source of material for potential boats would be wood and there is pretty
much zero chance of anything remaining of them after tens and tens of thousands of years, there is certainly anecdotal evidence that strongly suggests
that HNS were using boats approximately 100,000 years ago. We refer to their tool making culture as Mousterian and Mousterian tools have been found on
the coastal Greek islands of Kefallinia and Zakynthos. Neanderthals must have crossed the water for their tools to end up there. Te alternative is
that they were amazingly impressive long distance swimmers but I believe its far more likely that they used boats or some other form of floatations to
cross expanses of open water as there is evidence for this on other islands as well such as Crete for example.

Anyway, I'm just going to throw this into the ring for dissertation since I'm feeling kind of good right now.

I've never subscribed 100% to the Clovis trans Siberian migration. I'm sure it happened but I think other things were going on. This all started
with Graham Hancock's book, "Finger Prints of the Gods," being digested at an impressionable age. I never bought that 100% either. Not sure I
finished it.

Long story short, I have the happy lot in life of being a laborer for the past 15 years. One year, at the end of a shovel in Florida, I ran into a
crew of Tzotzil Indians. Pronounced "Soat-Seal."

What struck me as odd, was that to me, they had predominately Asian features. The eyes mainly. Also their general build and most importantly, the
way they spoke. Their native tongue is not Spanish. I don't think these guys hardly knew any Spanish. I probably knew more Spanish than them.
When they spoke though, it sounded like a bunch of Asian gibberish. Quite fascinating.

So in synopsis, I believe people have traveled to the Americas by boat. For a very long time.

Well native Americans are of Asian descent. When I worked in Merida I dealt with crews of Maya who didn't speak Spanish very well, I used a lot of
mime t o show them what to do, I did pick up words in four different dialect of Maya (I believe there are about 30). There were a few educated ones
and one in particular seem to think the Yucatan Caste Wars were something that happen last week (this was in 76-78).

The theory that people came down the west coast of Americas by boat is well established, it explains how they could have gotten around the ice
blockages in western Canada and the early dating of some site in SA.

Most certainly. The biggest glitch in the puzzle is that the most likely source of material for potential boats would be wood and there is pretty much
zero chance of anything remaining of them after tens and tens of thousands of years, there is certainly anecdotal evidence that strongly suggests that
HNS were using boats approximately 100,000 years ago. We refer to their tool making culture as Mousterian and Mousterian tools have been found on the
coastal Greek islands of Kefallinia and Zakynthos. Neanderthals must have crossed the water for their tools to end up there. Te alternative is that
they were amazingly impressive long distance swimmers but I believe its far more likely that they used boats or some other form of floatations to
cross expanses of open water as there is evidence for this on other islands as well such as Crete for example.

Don't forget Gibraltar, and one of the Aegean islands produced auchelean tools from stone that came from another island.

There is also a cave on the mainland in Greece, that is only accessible by water that had a long term Hsn occupation.

The idea that we swam, in some cases up to 40 miles in shark infested waters, is one the most rediculous notions that modern anthropology has tossed
out there.

Oh, yah and swam back with a bag of rocks too.

HE made to Indonesia Hf made it to Flores.

There is a good article out there by a guy who is making the case that HE hitched a ride with elephants, or were inspired by watching elephants swim
between islands.

HE was a pretty crafty guy, I wouldn't put it past them to come up witn a reed raft, or some such fiber based craft. And since Hsn had a whole
slew of gouge type carving tools in his bag so I think a dug put is certainly within the realm of possibility.

There is a really good documentary that follows two indigenous Panamanians as they hiked into the mountains to choose a log for a canoe. They would
start going by up going river, then a creek, following the drainage, up the hill to find a already fallen tree.

Then they spent a couple, three weeks carving and digging out the trunk. Then when it was done they waited till it rained, which was essentially
every day, and then pushed it down the hill to the creek, a distance of about 1/4 mile. It was pretty impressive.

And a little about reed boats, as built by native Californians,

Boats, rafts, and walking were the Yokuts’ main forms of transportation. Before the settlers came, they had no horses, so they carried
everything they used or needed. They walked wherever they needed to go.

If they were near a river or a lake, they made a boat and used it for transportation. The boats and rafts were made from tules that grew near lakes
and rivers. They were able to hold two to four people or sometimes more.

The Yokuts made the boats in spring and early summer and built them upside-down. They dried and hardened the poles of the boat over a fire. That
made the poles strong and practically waterproof.The boats were sometimes 50 feet long, 10 feet wide, and four feet deep.

Reed boats are a perfect example of a materials dictates form engineering solution. If your materials are similar, reeds and such, then what you
build from the will have the same forms to do the same task.

This is Quite interesting of Easter Island and Gobekli Tepe Similarity's of a Connection

Wonder why? , Maybe the Ancient's have been there Before. as Sumerians, Turkish, Egyptians,
and Lost all Knowledge of building methods , that We Ourselves have Difficulty of duplicating Today in Our Own Modern Technology .

Just Maybe they were just the Helpers ( Laborers ) of Building these Structures .. and that's All
and They were not the Designers nor the Foreman's .. Or Perhaps They Learned fro Another Advanced race
of How To Construct , but eventually Lost the Passing Down of that Knowledge .. to becoming primitive yet again.

As For Myself Having 2 Races within me There is Similarity's of
My Indigenous Roots of the New World To The Old World

Okay explain why there were stone age tribes in Africa, New Guinea, Asia and the Amazon up to the modern era?

Answer the advance of man is not dependent on his just being modern man but is due to other causes.

its what is claimed ( At First ) by The U.S. Navy Hydrographic Bureau in 1953

Hapgood simply made that up he made up lots of things. Below is an image the black outline is the world the purple one is what the Piri Reis map
shows

The Choosing of Isolation .. What is it that you want me to explain.. I need some detail here .. your speaking about Primitive Tribes
?? Well Just about all the places that has Advance unexplained Technology we have here in the Old and New World there is primitive People Nearby
that We all know there is No way that these People have Made these Wonders , Architecture .. Listen How about Explaining me where is the Blue
Prints or any slightest Idea of How the Pyramids, Temples, Ziggurats, Runs of Puma Punku were Built .. There were Pockets of being
"Advanced Sentients" in the Niches you Know Beings that have that ABILITY too,,,, Wonder, That are Curious eager to learn to Advance
themselves for a better Life ... Who to Say that there were, High advanced Intelligent Beings quarter of a Million years ago ... a Close Nit
Community .. Different from the Others like themselves in intellect. Advancing progressing at every moment ..

My comments were made to counter your claim that modern man must advance, obviously not all modern HSS did.

Blue prints were not invented then, they went by eye and experience, something craftsmen of today still use, Dhows in Arabia are still made solely by
eye.

Now could there have been others, smart other long ago? Yes - have we found any evidence for them? No. Is there any evidence for a lost civ of HSS,
not yet.

Explain a the Cookie Cutter Molds Pattern of the H Blocks in Puma Punk in Peru Bolivia.

Master craftsmen with the tools available in soft stone.

You Really think a primitive Stone- Brass age Tribes with No Written language ( Inca ) ( unlike the Mayans ) built these H Blocks Earch
one by Hand ?

No I don't they were most probably made by the Tiwanaku who existed well before the Inca, yes by hand what other way can you carve stone?

or it was in a Press fitting Mold , with some advancement of softening Stone some how some way to Form the Shapes of the Ha Blocks that
Resembles a a Toy Lego, Stackeable , Puzzle interlocking Building Block. Yup Feats like that Yet still in the Brass Age.. Where are Tools To
Build/Make them ? Seam like they left the Work Site with all there tools.. ok... but where they go.. Who are they ? and your Saying its
Primitive Natives that done the Job .. Just Like Egypt , Just Like Ankor Watt , There were Primitive Tribes Nearby the area

Angkor Wat is many things but it origin is not particularly mysteries. You don't like the Tiwanaku theory? Then ask your own question about the X
civilization that you seem to believe made them, no tools, no language, no nothing but rocks and these rocks surrounded by evidence of another culture
that had a long and fruitful history of very good stone masonry.

Kinda makes you wonder

1) ok ... Ahh Isolation perhaps.. Haven't advanced as keeping the Simpler Life.. Nothing to Make them Curious of Wonder. ? but most are Now
Self Aware in Modern Africa , New Guinea of what Surrounds them it Like the Amish living the way they do the Fear of Corruption of Technical
Advancement Considered to them Evil the Same People that Still think they are Witches in Africa same as Islamic Fundamentalists extremist in
views of Woman & Western Life yet in The Ancient Arabic World was the Heart of All Knowledge ( Before 900 A.D. ) a Downgrade.. Ignorance of
themselves Because of Religion...

2) Hapgood made that up What Claims that insisted that he did ?

Well from 500 year old Goat Skin Map made with a collection Ancient Maps
not so bad in Accuracy i would say.. So The World didn't change in water Levels , Land Mass from 2,000 to 3,000 years ago? as we are Seeing Now
from Melting, Ice caps or Long Drought's around the World within the last 10 years

Tho the P.R. Map is showing Islands that doesn't exist in modern day middle of the Atlantic
and about the North America.. and for the Antarctica Could of been closer or Reis wasn't sure how Long or how far the Land of Antarctica was ,..
just maybe

We are Talking about a Map that is from a Collection of Ancient Maps, let Alone.. this is only a Portion of the P.R. Map. The Map as it Looks has
been Ripped Way from a Much Larger Map.. A 500 Year Old Map around only 21 years since Columbus Discovered the New World ... Anyhow what
about other similar Old Maps of the 16th Century ( 1500's) Showing Antarctica.. Showing the Outline of what it really is as if No Ice was on the
Continent? That we only have found out since the 1950s

3) Blueprints yeah of Course nothing of the Source of how they could of been built, Just from the word of Mouth Only nothing written.. not even a
single Mosaic of a Painting. Showing the Construction.. nor history of the Teachings, I Still say there is a lot of precise Measurements in Puma
Punku. Not By Eye..

4) I tend to disagree of each H Blocks done By Hand Far to Many to be Identical with no Mistakes. and if there was some mistakes where are they ?
Carved ? what tools could of they used in the Brass Age.. for this Feat?

I Still say done in a Pattern Like Shape Mold like a Press Mold ..

5) Dont like the Tiwanaku Theory ? what do you Mean !

Angkor Wat is many things but it origin is not particularly mysteries. You don't like the Tiwanaku theory? Then ask your own question about the X
civilization that you seem to believe made them, no tools, no language, no nothing but rocks and these rocks surrounded by evidence of another culture
that had a long and fruitful history of very good stone masonry.

Yeah and Who are these People where did they come from .. These Sea People .. These Outlanders..
Yet there is a Few Similarity's from Puma Punku to the Old World a Large Iron Staples holding blocks together
Similar Corner Blocks, Similar Precised Blocks that you can not place a sheet a paper or a Razer between them

Speaking of Similarity's, Here Something to check Out , Similarity's between the Old and New World

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